# Decision support on an indexing rotary capability



## Clock work (May 25, 2018)

Greetings... several hours of research has narrowed solution space on an indexing rotary capability and appear to be at the limits of my ability to contribute further. What I end up selecting at this point appears to be describable by most of the following. 

A rotary table with indexing capability instead of an index table. Perhaps to include super spacer capability on top of the general indexing rather than as a replacement for it. One of my greatest (recognized) uncertainties is the value of super-spacing on top of indexing. Super spacer capability appears to more than double the cost for any given size table for a particular brand. 

6 or 8" with 8 seeming to make more sense. FYI, this is going on a PM 935. 

Big preference for Taiwan (of course I'd be.. willing.. to consider Switzerland or Germany and big preference for manufacturers willing to actually put their name on it. 

Specific products that seem like good solutions to my zero-experience eyes, in two groupings:

The super-spacer group:

The cost is no object solution appears to be the Vertex 8" super spacer rotary table with indexing accessories. No missing functionality. The 2000-blade Swiss Army knife..... back home in your drawer
I like what I hear about Phase 2 but cannot determine if their 8" super spacer includes the indexing bits (sector arms, plates, etc).  
Grizzly H7506.. I think this just a 6" table but with an 8" face plate. Mitigating factor? No apparent dividing bits.. show stopper if true.
The no-super-spacer group

Vertex 8" RT... dividing HW available... half the cost of the SS. 
Phase-2 8" RT... dividing HW avail. 

Grizzly - multiple 8" RT... dividing HW avail
Trying to summarize my inexperience-driven uncertainty... 

Does it generally work out that doubling the cost of this solution to have access to SS is worth it? I know you can't speak for me... for the collective "you"... generally.
Since all of these are RT's a their core, I assume they are all also 90:1 instead of the 40:1 of a dedicated indexing head. I realize there is probably more precision in RT mode with 90:1 but it seems like that would get old quickly with lots of index work. Anyone with personal experience on this?
10" non-SS RT's are obviously more precise as RT's... Any value in someone not making parts for F35's to go up to 10?
I'm sure there is a real possibility I have driven in a ridiculous part of solution space that is obvious to anyone with actual experience, so don't hesitate to set me straight. No beliefs here are chiseled in stone. Thanks. 

CW


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## Bob Korves (May 25, 2018)

As always, it depends on what you plan to make with the tooling.  If you plan to make gears of various sizes and tooth counts, a standard dividing head might be best, and versatile over many division  counts.  If making 4, 6, 8, 12 division holes, notches, or radial slots, then a super spacer would likely be better, and lots faster (and more idiot proof) to index.  For all around use when supreme accuracy is not the end all, a horizontal/vertical rotary table with an added tail stock would be widely useful.  An added set of dividing plates would give it even more functionality, and more accuracy.  For a 9x35 machine, I think I would go with a 8" rotary table, have one on my 8x32 Millrite, though it is pretty heavy, ~80 pounds.  A 6" is a lot lighter (and less rigid) but you will often run out of real estate for clamping down work unless you add an oversize tooling plate to the top of it.  I have that issue with my 8" rotary table.


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## Ed ke6bnl (May 25, 2018)

I have a Yaeshu(sp)  10 in Rotary Table, a bit big for my small table bridgeport and a bit on the heavy side for my age. but it does have a built in 5 degree indexing that is nice beside the dials. and for what I paid I can live with the size and weight. I got to leave right now and remove it from it hydraulic motorcyle stand for lifting to the Bridgeport and use it to pull the motor on the buggy.

ps it is a lot heavier then it felt last time I moved it.


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## benmychree (May 25, 2018)

Many dividing heads have quick index capability, but unless you get one that has the feature of disengaging the worm (usually on a universal dividing head) you still have to do lots of cranking.  Most super spacers do not have a worm drive, so the indexing capability is quite limited.  A universal dividing head is more expensive due to the change gears provided and the input gearing and worm disengagement feature, but is much more versatile than a SS.  I need both a rotary table and a universal dividing head, but rarely use the rotary table.  The universal dividing head has the capability of dividing prime numbers, also.


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## Clock work (May 26, 2018)

Thank you much, Guys, for the insightful replies. They all truly helped. B... did not even think to check for the presence of worm-disengagement on the candidates... that lead to a surprise on the Phase2 super spacer model I would not have seen otherwise. Ed... hilarious, but the idea of using my HF 20% coupon for a hydraulic cart for when I have to yank my KZ1000 engine out of the frame was even more helpful! Bob.. the firehose of good advice continues Thanks!

I put in about 4 hours of "research" (funny how that term means something different than it used to.. Decision made and ordered. I ended up with a clear (by my criteria) choice of the Grizzly 8" non-spacer H/V Yuasa-knockoff rotary table and for some reason I went looking for one last photo of the Vertex HV-8 and, presto, there's 4 of them for sale by a guy I know (Matt/PM) at not just the Grizzly price but with free shipping so like $200 off and I get Taiwan instead of just China. Only downside was I put like 4 hours getting to the bottom (understanding the small spaces of the solution set is a bear when you don't have the thing or the experience) of it so I could leak something I'd love to own into my family for Father's Day but unfortunately now I own and will soon have it. Bummer sorta. If anyone knows where there's an early 70's Husky 360 RT/Sportsman for sale, PLEASE message me before Father's Week (Hey.. we're celebrating critical functionality here. 

Thank you again guys.

CW


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## Clock work (Jun 1, 2018)

** UPDATE **  Am I stupid, or... is my table screwed, on top of me being stupid?

The table arrived yesterday (heavier than I thought... but more likely, I'm more ancient than I remembered). Tonight I attempted to jump inside and see if anything needs to be cleaned up before I start using it. The divider plates and tail stock are due in next week and I was quite excited to start playing with it. Stefan G has a very nice teardown vid of the 6" and I ensured I was informed by that prior to starting. Mostly identical with one significant exception. Everything was humming along until it was time to slide the worm out of the base and then no joy. Hard stop. All screws have been backed off/removed. 

What I see is what appears to be a type of bearing (not sure what to call it other than the opposite of a sealed bearing). 




What you see to the left of the bearing is the worm "carrier" going into the cast base. This bearing is not that in the HV6 table Steffan showed in his videos.. Just a simple shaft with no bearing. Back to this picture... the parts to the right of the bearing head over to the worm and that shaft is  carried by the ID of the bearing. Look carefully... you see that the OD of the bearing extends up above the worm "carrier" to its left. It is physically impossible to extract the worm assembly because that bearing interferes. Video to illustrate:





  (if it doesn't show, it's at youtu dot be slash DVRRloLEkNY) 

Somebody got it in. There is a ring with two 5mm grub screws holding the shaft (the one passing thru the ID of the bearing toward the handle). That ring is a BRUTE to turn... I removed the screws and put a 25mm cap screw into one of the holes and used a tool to try and turn that while holding shaft stationary. Just a BEAR to make any progress at all. After I loosen it a little, the left plate of the bearing in the photo remains snug up against the worm "carrier" and the rest of the bearing seems to relax some and spread. The only thing I can think that can get that shaft out is to pull that nut on the outside off completely (though it moves with such difficulty I'm not convinced I won't hurt something by pressing the issue). Then pull the worm "carrier" and push the shaft completely inside the casting (if it will go.. I have my concerns) and pray the bearing slides off and I'm able to slide the bearing off the shaft and then pull the shaft out thru the hole. I did not realize the crack addict that designed the SB7 shaper later worked on rotary tables 

I want to slow the train down and hear from the smart guys. Anyone have any thoughts on this? If this turns into a monster pushup, I will just return it and get the Grizzly table... my second choice. 

I was also not wild about this rust on the inside of the table casting but it is honestly in a position of no importance. The paperwork indicates my table has been sitting around since 2016 so it had time to rust. I also notice that the interior is not coated with that red oil-tolerant paint you see in SG's Vertex videos and others. Guessing it's not a big deal other than establish the curiosity that maybe it's not actual Vertex. 




So.. anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. 

CW


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## machinejack (Jun 2, 2018)

It really amazes me to read about people buying cheap made junk at high prices and after getting them home and looking them over  find all sorts of things wrong with them. Then we will debate about them for weeks. An old adage you get what you pay for.


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## Clock work (Jun 2, 2018)

Thank you.. My existence is one long series of continuous extreme failure. If you saw Flowers for Algernon, that was basically about me, except the part in the middle where he was smart. 

Still looking for input on moving that bearing.


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## extropic (Jun 2, 2018)

Clock work,
Your detail photography is great but you're not displaying the "big picture". Please show "overview" photos, then zoom in.
You mention "a ring with two 5mm grub screws holding the shaft" but I don't see it in any of the photos. Where is it?
WAG = The grub screws have done damage where they bit into the soft shaft and that's why the ring is hard to remove. Keep trying. Can you see shaft damage through one or both of the grub screw holes?


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## extropic (Jun 2, 2018)

Add a picture of the exterior of the housing around the worm shaft (as in the video, with nothing attached to the shaft).


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## Clock work (Jun 2, 2018)

extropic said:


> Clock work,
> Your detail photography is great but you're not displaying the "big picture". Please show "overview" photos, then zoom in.
> You mention "a ring with two 5mm grub screws holding the shaft" but I don't see it in any of the photos. Where is it?
> WAG = The grub screws have done damage where they bit into the soft shaft and that's why the ring is hard to remove. Keep trying. Can you see shaft damage through one or both of the grub screw holes?



Absolutely fantastic call on the messed up threads. That was exactly the problem. Sincerely appreciated.

My epic choke (today) was not realizing that once I got that bunged up ring off the shaft and could extract the worm "carrier" that the ball thrust bearing would itself then literally leap out with the worm. So glad I read all those engineering books.... I need to drive over to the brain institute and get another dose of the "magic peanut butter", if you know what I mean.

Photos of the work post reading your suggestion:





Leverage setup to drag the ring free




Success shot, like the group photo at the end of Wonder Woman:




The result of having a grub impinge directly on a thread shown. I guess they grant tenure in off-shore machine shops. It's 24tpi but just a shade under 17mm. I obviously need to go check something but I trust the 24... the gauge just dropped in perfectly. Shaft.. messed up. Ring... it'll survive. I'll go out on a limb and say I don't have a die for that particular shaft thread... any further thoughts? Triangular jeweler's file maybe?






So here's the grease. I looked closely at the the locations/paths of the ball oilers and conclude there are oil areas fed by the oilers, and 3 grease areas:

1 & 2: The big bearings supporting the plate in the casting... i.e. front and rear. And..
3: The worm.

The oil ports just don't talk to these places. So grease it shall be there. Anyone recognize or care to take a shot at that yellow stuff on... everything? Sorta like bringing a consultant into the room with the mainframe and asking him what he thought the software error was by just looking at it from the doorway. Of course, back when there were real computers (11/70 and the Seaview) you actually could tell from across the room. I digress... I'll put oil on the rest when I assemble and test it and report back how it performs.




Charly Gordon


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## extropic (Jun 2, 2018)

Yes, use a triangular (proper name = tri square) jewelers file to cleanup those threads. Be sure to clean everything so no filings get into the lubricants.

Reassemble with a short slug of brass (or an actual 5mm brass screw cutoff) under each setscrew. The 17mm thread form will bite into the brass and prevent it from turning and the setscrew will do it's job without damaging the 17mm thread.

I don't worry too much about having "the perfect" lubricant for these types of light duty applications. I would probably use (have used) white Lubriplate. Maybe someone else has a specific recommendation.


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## Clock work (Jun 2, 2018)

extropic said:


> Yes, use a triangular (proper name = tri square) jewelers file to cleanup those threads. Be sure to clean everything so no filings get into the lubricants.
> 
> Reassemble with a short slug of brass (or an actual 5mm brass screw cutoff) under each setscrew. The 17mm thread form will bite into the brass and prevent it from turning and the setscrew will do it's job without damaging the 17mm thread.
> 
> I don't worry too much about having "the perfect" lubricant for these types of light duty applications. I would probably use (have used) white Lubriplate. Maybe someone else has a specific recommendation.



Thank you and sincerely appreciate the correct terminology. I know my grease usage on motorcycles, boats and tractors but just seizing the opportunity to learn in the new-to-me domain of shop machinery. I'd loved to know what that yellow stuff is... very thick... not hardening or skinning over like cosmoline... the manual doesn't have a peep about lubrication though averaging out the recommendations of manuals for other tables makes the "what" of selection simple but less the "why". I also notice that the oiled/sliding surfaces show a black graphite like content.. perhaps a moly grease. As an FYI if anyone knows of a good one, I'm looking for a good book, preferably 30's thru 50's, for machine design with hopeful a discussion of lubrication. Thanks again. 

CW


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## kd4gij (Jun 2, 2018)

You can get soft tip set screws that won't mar those threads.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#set-screws/=1d47x4a


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## extropic (Jun 2, 2018)

kd4gij said:


> You can get soft tip set screws that won't mar those threads.
> https://www.mcmaster.com/#set-screws/=1d47x4a



The problem with using a soft tipped setscrew bearing on threads is that turning the setscrew causes the soft tip to be scarfed away by the peaks of the thread. Using a separate piece of brass, between the setscrew and shaft, it becomes non-rotating as the setscrew is tightened for the first time.


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## kd4gij (Jun 2, 2018)

The brass tipped setscrews that I have used the tip would rotate in the screw


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## extropic (Jun 3, 2018)

kd4gij said:


> The brass tipped setscrews that I have used the tip would rotate in the screw



I've never seen what you describe but they certainly could exist. I've bought various sizes from McMaster and all brass tips have been rigidly attached. I don't know if they're bonded or press fit but I've never noticed any relative rotation. McMaster doesn't mention such a feature in their description.
If I remember, tomorrow I'll sacrifice some samples to see if I can turn the brass with pliers. It could happen.

Now that I'm thinking about the issue a little more, McMaster sells brass balls and dropping a 5/32 brass ball into the hole before installing the M5 grub screw might work a treat.   Brass Balls


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## Clock work (Jun 3, 2018)

Perhaps interesting:

https://www.motioncontroltips.com/whats-unique-about-worm-gear-lubrication/

CW


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## Clock work (Jun 3, 2018)

For future reference... the SB rotary tables appear (to me) to be identical to the Vertex units. The Vertex manual is low-information/utility.. the SB manual is written very thoroughly. 

http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/sb1363_m.pdf

CW


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## Clock work (Jun 3, 2018)

My absolute final post on this holy grail search... 

Hours of "research" (that term has been rendered utterly devoid of meaning by the web) has resulted in the discovery of APPARENT special needs of a yellow-metal worm gear... both parts of that have meaning... yellow metal, and worm gear. The open nature and pressures that can be involved appear to suggest a grease is preferable to an oil... stays on better and less frequently disassembly and reapplication. Perhaps a #2 is not far off as far as NLGI ratings go. The yellow metal part suggests to stay away from greases that contain additives hostile to bronze, brass, etc. like some EP additives do. Add this to the suggestion for this particular table cited in the previous entry to use a "multi purpose gear grease" which as best I can tell thru my "research" is mostly a made up term but might be a technical writer encapsulating a concern for yellow metal by saying "gear". So... I can go buy me $500 worth of Lubriplate Gear Grease (ain't going to happen) or just put it back together and let my estate worry about it. The latter not being how I'm wired on most things. 

It's INCREDIBLE how a life in ilfe/mission-critical engineering and getting on planes to FORCE rooms full of smart guys to make the best possible technical decisions DESTROYS fun at literally anything after you stop doing that Perhaps origami or bird houses is for me. Ok.. no more shall be typed in about rotary tables by me. Enjoy

CW


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## Silverbullet (Jun 3, 2018)

Depending on length for the stop screw I'd use a brass rod in the hole in front of the lock screw. I'd be upset with the damage it caused but what else can be done. I guess we all need to take new items apart and upgrade the cheap cuts made.


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## Clock work (Jun 3, 2018)

Silverbullet said:


> Depending on length for the stop screw I'd use a brass rod in the hole in front of the lock screw. I'd be upset with the damage it caused but what else can be done. I guess we all need to take new items apart and upgrade the cheap cuts made.



Agreed but I cannot limit it to shop machinery. My field was the computational and semiconductor sides of electronics and design skills and effort have plummeted indescribably. IT's true there and it's true in many others (cars, appliances, book binding, etc etc etc). Design does not seem to be even a small focus of schools feeding industry and a generation or two in to making due with the progressively weaker, you have nobody to "fix" things and you get "good enough" products (joke) rather than "kicks a$$" products. A less discriminating marketplace makes it easier to get away with that. 

CW


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## hman (Jun 5, 2018)

I like the way you used a socket head screw and spanner wrench to avoid buggering up the threaded hole.  Great idea!


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## Clock work (Jun 5, 2018)

hman said:


> I like the way you used a socket head screw and spanner wrench to avoid buggering up the threaded hole.  Great idea!
> View attachment 269041



Thank you very much. 

CW


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## westerner (Jun 5, 2018)

Clock work said:


> I'd loved to know what that yellow stuff is... very thick


In another forum I frequent ,I have heard this grease called "Yak fat". LOLOL. 
But seriously, Clock work- I can appreciate your attempt to "make the best, most informed choice". I too, am afflicted by the same gene, or disorder, or trait or.....where is my thesaurus?.............


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## Clock work (Jun 6, 2018)

westerner said:


> In another forum I frequent ,I have heard this grease called "Yak fat". LOLOL.
> But seriously, Clock work- I can appreciate your attempt to "make the best, most informed choice". I too, am afflicted by the same gene, or disorder, or trait or.....where is my thesaurus?.............



Those who are about "the journey" want to stop and ponder and learn new things. I'll look for you at the Tues night meetings in the church basement

CW


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## RandyM (Jun 6, 2018)

machinejack said:


> It really amazes me to read about people buying cheap made junk at high prices and after getting them home and looking them over  find all sorts of things wrong with them. Then we will debate about them for weeks. An old adage you get what you pay for
> 
> 
> Clock work said:
> ...



CW you're a very classy individual.


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## Clock work (Jun 6, 2018)

RandyM said:


> CW you're a very classy individual.



Thank you, though this probably means I will never tell my Neils Bohr/Erwin Schrodinger joke here as I attempt to live up this new and impossible standard. 

CW


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## hman (Jun 6, 2018)

As part of my graduate studies in physical chemistry, I lightly touched upon quantum mechanics.  So I for one would not be bohred by a joke about an uncertain cat


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## Clock work (Jun 6, 2018)

And I'd love to tell you.. but until I get thru the orientation videos on this new "rating" I now have to drag around indefinitely, I'd best hold off.


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## westerner (Jun 6, 2018)

Clock work said:


> And I'd love to tell you.. but until I get thru the orientation videos on this new "rating" I now have to drag around indefinitely, I'd best hold off.


Lucky for me, I am simply dragging around the rating of "pretty smart, for a REDNECK". I am good with that, and shall remain so. I will stick to blonde jokes, and some sarcasm generally not appreciated by the crowd I run with.
I am a man of a thousand cliches, and here is another one-
Sure, sarcasm may be the LOWEST form of wit, but its all I got!


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## Clock work (Jun 7, 2018)

Smart rednecks are the ones that will rebuild after the apocalypse, and howl in laughter over their beer remembering all the idiot yuppies they had to bury  More fun to hang out with too. 

CW


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## Clock work (Jun 8, 2018)

I finally got around to repairing the threads that that STUPID design destroyed. Three hours wearing the Palomar lens on my head 1.2" from the worm shaft filing the two ridiculous craters (in the THREADS on the most important part in the machine), and then fixing the threads on the ring that got screwed over moving it off the two craters. 

Hey *Vertex*... pay attention here... NO CUSTOMER (i.e. YOUR god) wants to waste his first hours of his relationship with your product fixing something you broke and for which you have zero excuses. Seriously... I'll look long and hard about ever considering a single thing you make or saying even the most mild positive comment. You NEVER EVER let garbage like that out the door..... EVER. Ask me how I know... please. And write a proper GD manual while you're at it. Thanks for sucking the joy I could have had with this thing all the way out of it. End Message to *Vertex/Taiwan*


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## RandyM (Jun 8, 2018)

RandyM said:


> CW you're a very classy individual.



AND NOW, you are going to make me take back everything I ever said about you?


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## Clock work (Jun 8, 2018)

RandyM said:


> AND NOW, you are going to make me take back everything I ever said about you?



You won't be close to the first  Maybe it shows but I take business the way the Dali Lama takes spirituality and I reached my snapping point about lazy customer-hostile business years ago... the customer experience and the level of delivered quality will always manage to plummet as long as there is no consequence for talking haircuts to push for their  promotions on the backs of customer-hostile product and service decisions. Make every inexcusable (the perfect adjective here) act of customer hostility hurt. Cause/effect. Hot stoves teach about heat. Ignoring the inexcusable condones it just like failure to bomb a weed in your lawn with the right chemistry only brings more. There is no stasis... you're either killing the enemy or they're killing you. And yes, the other side of this is when someone does something above and beyond, slather them in praise and if you search, I've done that for Matt at PM and that was not unique for me. More people need to be handing both out pain and praise to arrest the fall and encourage a rise. If someone had anything close to a public (or otherwise) comment as I just made about about Vertex about my company it'd be made right fast and if it was slacker behavior in one of my guys, it'd be instant good bye...  and it would still embarrass me every time I remembered it. Taking into account the effect it might have on them if the right guy saw it, it was actually Vertex-positive. Business, and cause/effect, matter. You have to respect both. For business, it's not about money... it's about how you do it. 

I hate to lose your admiration so quickly, but I know in my heart you were SO wrong about me.. e.g., it was pointed out in email yesterday I lead my division in penalties the last year I played junior [HEAR the pride in me saying that:]

CW
The worst guy in Greenland


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## RandyM (Jun 8, 2018)




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## westerner (Jun 8, 2018)

I am a simple man. It seems to me, that the "walmart" mentality has created a business climate or model that will be nearly impossible to change. 
By that, I mean- there are more people in this country looking for "a good deal", than there are people willing to pay more for a quality product. 
Supply and Demand will rule, and those of us looking for quality gear are forced to seek old stuff, from a different era. 
Yet another example of our declining society, and a "low voltage" one, at that. Sorry, rant over. Off to the yard sales tomorrow! Not to seek bargains! Oh no. I seek to pay fairly for examples of products of a different era. Or just see some. It is therapy, really.


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## Clock work (Jun 9, 2018)

westerner said:


> I am a simple man. It seems to me, that the "walmart" mentality has created a business climate or model that will be nearly impossible to change.
> By that, I mean- there are more people in this country looking for "a good deal", than there are people willing to pay more for a quality product.
> Supply and Demand will rule, and those of us looking for quality gear are forced to seek old stuff, from a different era.
> Yet another example of our declining society, and a "low voltage" one, at that. Sorry, rant over. Off to the yard sales tomorrow! Not to seek bargains! Oh no. I seek to pay fairly for examples of products of a different era. Or just see some. It is therapy, really.



Good rant. It's nice to know I hang out in the company of smart guys. And when you add time in, the new arrivals in the market don't know any better as all they can see are the "value conscious" all around them and their own "more important than sex" drive toward paying the least takes it down another level. The brilliant high quality products rolled out for the "early adopters" and "innovators" (cf the term diffusion of innovation) are ultimately noticed by the laggards (the other end) and the march to the bottom begins. Along the way innovation is discarded (bottom feeders don't need no stinking innovation)... the early adopters/innovators... the guys whose $$ literally built the market in the first place are left behind having to settle for, as you say, Walmart crap.. or as came up yesterday, Pep Boys "dirt bikes". PURE crap... almost single-use. 

For a long time I blamed exclusively the demand side of the market for this... people demanding cheap (crap). In my own industry, I saw the high quality providers attempt to resist the need to get rid of the smart guys to get the cost down to meet the market. But ultimately, the second factor kicked in... the cubicle meat at the big companies learned the one single "skill" you can attribute to big company cubicle meat... they accelerate the race to the bottom far beyond the market forces and actually spin the garbage they're making as in the best interest of the customer. Right. Their need for a promotion/points outstrips what's best for the customer and ultimately their company. The good part is that if you're a mutant and want to operate your own small company, bust hump 100hr/wk, you can smoke big company cubicle meat all day/everyday and twice on Casual Fridays if you're even slightly smart. Kill to eat always murders show up to eat. 

There's an interesting principle called The Lindy Effect that frankly is the core of my product acquisition life the last 20 years. The LE is that a good prediction for how long a product that's in service or offered for sale is... as long as it's been in service or offered for sale already. Take an M1 or a 1911 over some gee-whiz brimming with the latest technology (designed by some 20-something) owner-recognizing next-generation gun every day. My truck (2005 Lex) has like 18 computers in it. Unlike most, I see a positive impact on quality of some carefully applied technology but I know how to compute system MTBF in my sleep and would not consider even a free current model year version of that t ruck as it has something like 250+ computers in it (and UTTERLY pointless functionality too). The Lindy Effect and respect for older better made better designed things has been serving me well for 20+ years. (Would KILL for a Checker Marathon and/or a 73 Husky 360 RT). 

CW


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