# Another obligatory New PM-833TV and PM-1340GT Ordered!



## Christianstark

Hi all! So due to a bit or ordering confusion on my part, I pulled the trigger on a 1340GT earlier than I had anticipated, to add to my previously ordered 833-TV! Bob Ross would call that a happy little accident. So the waiting period has begun. My happy accident has eaten away my tooling budget unfortunately, so I will be looking for some low cost hand me downs on the for sale channel here. I need it all. I also opted for the 3 Phase version of the 1340GT, so I will also be doing some research on how to select, and build controls built around a VFD for that. 

I may be asking @mksj for advice here, or at least pointing me to some of his previous advice posts on how to get that started.

For now, I will start researching how to add a sub panel to my existing 200A panel, so I can run the 220V needed for these machines. 

Busy times ahead!


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## DavidR8

Congrats!


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## mmcmdl

Low cost hand me downs are us .  Congrats on the new machines , now the fun starts .


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## Christianstark

mmcmdl said:


> Low cost hand me downs are us .  Congrats on the new machines , now the fun starts .


I think I am going to need to start with some basics. Metrology. I have a vice coming with the mill, and can get some cheap parallels to start out relatively cheap on Amazon. Do you have any value starter calipers, mics, and indicators in your collection you could quote me a price on?


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## Aukai

That bait didn't even hit the water and it was hit.   If Dave doesn't have it, and you look at/on ebay ask here for opinions there will be good guidance. Another source is the calibration/refurbishing labs have deals on good quality instruments. This link is on hold for now while it is being updated. There are other companies that do repairs, and refurbishing, so look around.





						Overstock Sale Items
					

Overstock Sale Indicators, micrometers, calipers. Interapid, Bestest, Tesatast, Mitutoyo, Compac, Tesatast




					www.longislandindicator.com


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> I think I am going to need to start with some basics. Metrology. I have a vice coming with the mill, and can get some cheap parallels to start out relatively cheap on Amazon. Do you have any value starter calipers, mics, and indicators in your collection you could quote me a price on?


Congratulations.   I sent you a DM with a list of tools to consider.  Be weary about Amazon tooling - some of it is counterfeit.  More in my DM.


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## Just for fun

Congratulations man!


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## nighthawkFmobil

Congratulations. Is your 833tv on the way? Last I checked they were backordered as of Wednesday.


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## Christianstark

Just confirmed it looks like both machines are set to reach QMT in July. Time to DIY a sub panel to where I am planning to create my small indoor shop. I have a somewhat larger area I will be fixing up for a machinist shop, but that is going to take some time, and money to get to where I can control temps and humidity, and re-do the floor. The temporary space is 11' x 9.5', so a tad cramped, but I think I can get by there while I work on the permanent shop.

The permanent shop is currently where all of my tools reside, and miscellaneous storage, but I am planning on building a shed to store much of the tools and storage items that are not as sensitive to humidity as machine tools. That is going to take a while.


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## Christianstark

Here is a pic of the current space. Plan is to add doors into the space, remove the carpet, and run a sub panel to the left wall. Its just 20 or so feet from the main panel.






Eventually I have unfinished workshop space. I will build a raised floor shed, and move much of the tools, bikes, and storage items to. I am also considering installing some support beams, and removing the metal supports here, and removing the exposed earth area, and pouring a new floor. Add a HVAC unit, and some ventalation. This space is 20' x 13' and would be perfect.


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## jrkn86

davidpbest said:


> Congratulations.   I sent you a DM with a list of tools to consider.  Be weary about Amazon tooling - some of it is counterfeit.  More in my DM.


David - I’m in the same exact boat having bought an PM833TV and 1340GT myself today.  Would you mind sharing the info you sent to Christian?


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## Christianstark

jrkn86 said:


> David - I’m in the same exact boat having bought an PM833TV and 1340GT myself today.  Would you mind sharing the info you sent to Christian?


Welcome to the fold! The wait is tough, but I do have some work to do to get ready. Look forward to sharing notes!


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## nighthawkFmobil

I'm currently waiting for a 940v. The wait was tough initially but it's been pushing me to get other projects done so I'm going to ride the wave with a smile. I'm about a month to a month and a half out so its getting real.

Have you guys been following the situation in Tawain? Any idea if that could effect shipping time for the 833's?


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## Aukai

It is just my opinion that nothing will really happen to production unless there is a disruption in supplies. If China makes a real move, and invades, or embargoes, then things will change. This is one of the reasons I ordered the lead screws, and nuts, PM does not have them in stock. Mine came from Taiwan by DHL, I just got them last week.


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## davidpbest

jrkn86 said:


> David - I’m in the same exact boat having bought an PM833TV and 1340GT myself today.  Would you mind sharing the info you sent to Christian?


Attached is my latest list including hotlinks to one source of supply.


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## WobblyHand

@davidpbest for the Greenfield die stock, the 423009, what size die does it hold?  The Amazon link tells me how long it is (pretty much useless info), but not the die OD.  For that matter, the Greenfield site doesn't tell me either. Is the whole body tool steel?  If so, I've been looking for decades to find something like that!

Found it elsewhere.  423009 is for 1" OD dies.


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## davidpbest

The #3 die stock holds 1" round dies.  You can find the Greenfield specific sizes _*in this catalog*_ on page 32, lower left corner.  The holder is low carbon steel.  I have made my own die stocks as three-piece units with screw-on handles, and hardened the round die holder to Rockwell 50 - pretty simple project if you have a lathe and a mill.


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## davidpbest

Someone DM'd me asking how I made my own die stocks, so I thought I would just post that info here.  
Attached are drawings for making your own tailstock tap & die holders and round die stocks.  The die stocks are on the third page.   You can see the tailstock tap and die system *at this link* - the die stocks I didn't photograph since they are a simple subset of the tailstock units.  

I have a heat treat oven which you can get from Stan Z by clicking _*here *_if you want to make the investment.  He builds them in lots of about 20, they are exceptionally well made an an  outstanding value compared to the mass produced stuff.  Stan has a series of videos on how he makes the ovens if you're interested - here is *the link.*

But you don't have to have a heat treat oven to harden and aneal steel. You can heat-treat 4041 by bringing it to dark cherry red with a propane torch, then quenching in water.  Then put them in your kitchen oven at 400°F for about 30 minutes, turn off the oven and let them cool overnight.  That will temper them back to 50° Rockwell.  They will be oxidized terribly, so clean them up with a maroon ScotchBrite pad.  If you don't temper the components by re-heating them to 400 for at least 30 minutes, they will be extremely brittle and will fracture if you drop them on something hard (like a concrete floor or your mill vise).


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## Christianstark

Well it looks like I was wrong thinking both machines would be here in July. I think the 833TV will get to PM late July, and the 1340GT Late August.

I purchased some 2-2-2-4 Aluminum service cable, and a Siemens 100A 12/24 box to run as my sub panel. I am out of space in my main panel, so I am going to use the breaker space for the double oven to install a new 100A breaker, and run it to the new sub-panel. I will then re-locate the breaker to the double ovens to the sub panel, and still have plenty of space for 110 and 220V runs in my mini-shop. Planning on a 50A circuit for my Millermatic 215, which I can run just out the sliding door of my basement, and dedicated circuits for the mill and lathe as well. Will probably start that project this coming weekend.


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## hanermo2

Aukai said:


> It is just my opinion that nothing will really happen to production unless there is a disruption in supplies. If China makes a real move, and invades, or embargoes, then things will change. This is one of the reasons I ordered the lead screws, and nuts, PM does not have them in stock. Mine came from Taiwan by DHL, I just got them last week.


Em .. yes and no.
The US market depends on orderly deliveries at orderly prices to not upset stock market prices.






						Market Movers Asia, May 10-14: Iron ore prices on spotlight after hitting record highs
					

On Platts Market Movers Asia with Digital Editor Barbara Caluag: the iron ore market sentiment is on overdrive, after prices breached $200/mt for the first time in its history.




					www.spglobal.com
				




At the moment there is no real physical problem - US.
There is plenty of US (scrap) steel, and US mills are gearing up.

Traders (financial markets) have driven up the price of *US* steel .. and this is great news for the US mills that are now re-starting production.
And activating their workers (jobs).
Within a shortish period of time, akaasm 3-4 months, US steel prices will swing to their typical feedstock+processing prices.
Somewhere around 600$ / ton, depending on how You measure it / measure what.

The US markets have been very much affected, in commodities.
But the global production or usage of commodidities is about the same, within 1-2%, essentially no change.
Except a bit less oil (==> gas, diesel, shipping, refining), and a lot less air travel.

-- and less Cruise ships, auto rentals, hospitality. 
None of which are PM industries.

--
If china actually wanted to hurt US industrial production it c/p/would raise the prise of refining lithium or price of processing neodymium magnets.
But they wont.
If they did, within 2-3 years the US would have built new infrastructure able to do similar processing.
Probably at a higher price, initially, but so what. 
Perhaps 2x higher price, or more.

The US does not yet want to develop highly efficient, low-energy, clean, lithium extraction or processing infrastructure.
5/2021.
So far, there are exactly zero national efforts to do so.
Tesla is the only US company to have done any meaningful EV battery stuff on a global level.
And accounts for about 35% of all global advanced battery efforts.


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## Christianstark

Would love some input on a drill chuck for my 1340GT.

Need a MT#3 but not sure about what to go for. Looking for the best value proposition here. Bang for buck. Any gems in the $150 or less range?


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## mksj

I use a 5/8" keyless chuck with integral MT3 shank, I would recommend getting one with a lower TIR. I have been pretty happy with the Shar's higher end Tegara line, also the PM chucks work well. The nickle plated ones with coated jaws hold up well and the claimed TIR is under 0.002". On Shar's check their website, sometimes cheaper to order through eBay.








						TEGARA 5/8" Keyless drill chuck with Morse Taper 3 Integral Shank 13mm New A[  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for TEGARA 5/8" Keyless drill chuck with Morse Taper 3 Integral Shank 13mm New A[ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				








						5/8" Keyless drill chuck with Morse Taper 3 Integral Shank TANG TYPE 16mm
					

Shars Tool




					www.shars.com


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## Aukai

I'm liking my chuck from PM.....


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## Christianstark

Aukai said:


> I'm liking my chuck from PM.....


I thought I had ordered it but I just looked back on my order and only ordered an R8 flavor for my mill.


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## Jake P

I saw a post where David Best mentioned that he uses an ER40 collet chuck with MT#3 in his tailstock in addition to a regular chuck.  Seems like an interesting addition.  I would think that the advantage would be greater precision and larger diameter?


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## davidpbest

The attached tool list includes some drill chuck alternatives for the 1340 tailstock (MT3).  I've tried many brands, and prefer Vertex for keyed chucks, and Albrecht for keyless.   Another H-M user recently acquired the _*PM Ultra Precision chuck*_ and good things to say about it and the runout check showed good results.
​


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## davidpbest

Jake P said:


> I saw a post where David Best mentioned that he uses an ER40 collet chuck with MT#3 in his tailstock in addition to a regular chuck.  Seems like an interesting addition.  I would think that the advantage would be greater precision and larger diameter?


Yes, I use ER40 instead of 5C in my shop because of the wider clamping range.  So I have ER40 collet chucks with R8 shank for the mill, with MT3 shank for lathe tailstock and spindle (using MT5->MT3 adapter), and rotary table on the mill, along with square and hex collet blocks.  I use the ER40 collet chuck in the tailstock to hold end mills, reamers, and annular cutters.


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## mksj

Typically I use the ER40 collet in the lathe tail stock when I want to hold an end mill, sometime for shouldering or finish boring, but in general for larger holes I recommend MT drills (regular and stepped), annular cutters and reamers if you need a precise diameter. On deep boring I use a 1" carbide boring bar which usually can maintain an end to end tolerance of 0.001" over 8".  An end mill for drilling is less than ideal. On the mill I prefer the smaller ER32 R8 system because it has less bulk, but also have an ER40 for large end mills.


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## wrmiller

Aukai said:


> I'm liking my chuck from PM.....



 I have the PM ultra precision chuck for my 1340GT and I have two (small and large) ultra precision chucks for my mill. Zero complaints.


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## Christianstark

Called PM yesterday to see how my order was going, and learned that the 833TV is no longer expected in July, but in Mid August now. I know things happen, but I am a bit miffed that I had to call to find this out. I am paid in full on over $14K worth of machinery, I kind of figure I deserve updates when things change. 

I guess I will take a deep breath, and let it go.


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## WobblyHand

This is the aftermath of a global disruption due to the pandemic.  The delays are being seen in many industries, not just machine tools.  From what I understand it's tough to buy vehicles, and appliances, and soon TV's due to the world wide chip shortages.  Major disruptions can have lasting impacts.  I hope things settle out soon, and things approach normal.  I'd love to upgrade some of my machinery, but for the most part, it's quite difficult now.  Hardly anyone has stock.

@Christianstark Hang in there.  The wait will be worth it.


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## Christianstark

I totally get it. I just think when an order is pushed out several weeks to a month, it should be communicated.



WobblyHand said:


> This is the aftermath of a global disruption due to the pandemic.  The delays are being seen in many industries, not just machine tools.  From what I understand it's tough to buy vehicles, and appliances, and soon TV's due to the world wide chip shortages.  Major disruptions can have lasting impacts.  I hope things settle out soon, and things approach normal.  I'd love to upgrade some of my machinery, but for the most part, it's quite difficult now.  Hardly anyone has stock.
> 
> @Christianstark Hang in there.  The wait will be worth it.


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## WobblyHand

Christianstark said:


> I totally get it. I just think when an order is pushed out several weeks to a month, it should be communicated.


I totally agree with you.


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## Christianstark

Ok. Starting to research running power for my machines.

I think I have landed on a 40 amp breaker with some 8G copper Romex type that I had left over after removing an older double oven run at the house to wire a dedicated outlet for my Miller Multimatic 215 welder.

For my machines, I am trying to decide what to do. Do I run a dedicated breaker for each? If so, what size breaker, and what gague wire would you suggest? The 833tv will be here first. For flexibility, do you suggest I buy spools of single conductor THHN and run and pull through conduit? Stick with standard NEMA outlets, or go twistlock? Other opinions?

thanks!


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## mksj

On a 2 Hp motor, typically a 20A breaker with 12AWG fire should be fine. Assumes single phase with a full load current of around 12A and not tripping the breaker on starting. If 3 phase and powering with a 2 Hp VFD, also 20A even though they recommend a 30A which would need 10AWG wiring. I ran both lathe (2 Hp 3 phase/VFD) and bench mill (3 Hp BLDC) off 20A breakers in the past, and I had each machine on it's own breaker. My current lathe and mill are 3 Hp on oversized 3 phase VFD's so I use 30A breakers with 10AWG wiring. Separate breakers are nice if you have the panel space and the ability to pull multiple circuits.


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## Christianstark

My subpanel is in the small room where I will be running conduit. Is there reason to go ahead and err on the 10 gauge side of things now? Price of copper won’t really be an issue with the runs I need. 


I’m also thinking about getting 100 foot spools of 10 gauge in red, black, and green to run the 220 power, and have left overs when I move my shop, though it may be a year or so till I can have the larger space prepped. The mill has a VFD built into it, and I’ll be installing VFD on the lathe.


mksj said:


> On a 2 Hp motor, typically a 20A breaker with 12AWG fire should be fine. Assumes single phase with a full load current of around 12A and not tripping the breaker on starting. If 3 phase and powering with a 2 Hp VFD, also 20A even though they recommend a 30A which would need 10AWG wiring. I ran both lathe (2 Hp 3 phase/VFD) and bench mill (3 Hp BLDC) off 20A breakers in the past, and I had each machine on it's own breaker. My current lathe and mill are 3 Hp on oversized 3 phase VFD's so I use 30A breakers with 10AWG wiring. Separate breakers are nice if you have the panel space and the ability to pull multiple circuits.


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## davidpbest

If you're buying THHN (or solid core) spooled wire, then presumably you'll be running that in conduit.  That's how my shop is wired - #10 THHN in 1/2" EMT.  I pull Black, Red, White (neutral), and Green to each drop - that way I can peel off 110VAC or 220VAC or both as required.  1/2" EMT will support up to 5 #10 conductors.


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## Christianstark

That’s interesting. I never considered that. So I could run 4 wires to each machine location, and power the 220v motors as well as all the 110v accessories, like DRO and power feed. I think I will up my breaker to 30A, and run 2 x 10 Gauge x 4 conductor legs.


davidpbest said:


> If you're buying THHN (or solid core) spooled wire, then presumably you'll be running that in conduit.  That's how my shop is wired - #10 THHN in 1/2" EMT.  I pull Black, Red, White (neutral), and Green to each drop - that way I can peel off 110VAC or 220VAC or both as required.  1/2" EMT will support up to 5 #10 conductors.


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## mksj

Run #10 stranded so you can pull it through the conduit, it will also give you the option to use a 30A breaker if you move up to 3 Hp machines in the future. I pull 4 wire to my machines because I split off 120V for drives, DRO, etc. I use a supplemental breaker at the machine otherwise 20A 120V sockets.


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## B2

Christianstark said:


> Hi all! So due to a bit or ordering confusion on my part, I pulled the trigger on a 1340GT earlier than I had anticipated, to add to my previously ordered 833-TV! Bob Ross would call that a happy little accident. So the waiting period has begun. My happy accident has eaten away my tooling budget unfortunately, so I will be looking for some low cost hand me downs on the for sale channel here. I need it all. I also opted for the 3 Phase version of the 1340GT, so I will also be doing some research on how to select, and build controls built around a VFD for that.
> 
> I may be asking @mksj for advice here, or at least pointing me to some of his previous advice posts on how to get that started.
> 
> For now, I will start researching how to add a sub panel to my existing 200A panel, so I can run the 220V needed for these machines.
> 
> Busy times ahead!



Maybe by the time you get your machine I will have posted my design for the VFD conversion.  I'm >95% complete on the conversion of my PM1440GT to VFD.  The difference with mine from most of the others I have seen is that it is solid state.  I got rid of all of the big clunky contactors /relays, the big transformer etc. and so I then had room in the back of the stand hole to put "everything" including the VFD and power braking resistor.  I still need to built a mount for my proximity detector and need to get a small panel connector for its cable. It all seems to work great and seems to fullfil all of the safety requirements.  Once, I figured it out the electronics were simple and cheap.  As is proably always the case, the wiring logistics was the biggest deal.  --- Dave


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> That’s interesting. I never considered that. So I could run 4 wires to each machine location, and power the 220v motors as well as all the 110v accessories, like DRO and power feed. I think I will up my breaker to 30A, and run 2 x 10 Gauge x 4 conductor legs.


If you're running 8 wires #10 THHN (stranded) in conduit, you will need 3/4" EMT, not 1/2".


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> If you're running 8 wires #10 THHN (stranded) in conduit, you will need 3/4" EMT, not 1/2".
> 
> View attachment 367693



I was going to run 2 different runs. 1 each for mill and lathe. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Christianstark

B2 said:


> Maybe by the time you get your machine I will have posted my design for the VFD conversion. I'm >95% complete on the conversion of my PM1440GT to VFD. The difference with mine from most of the others I have seen is that it is solid state. I got rid of all of the big clunky contactors /relays, the big transformer etc. and so I then had room in the back of the stand hole to put "everything" including the VFD and power braking resistor. I still need to built a mount for my proximity detector and need to get a small panel connector for its cable. It all seems to work great and seems to fullfil all of the safety requirements. Once, I figured it out the electronics were simple and cheap. As is proably always the case, the wiring logistics was the biggest deal. --- Dave



Very interested to see what you have come up with. Is there an existing thread yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Christianstark

Spoke to my cousin who owns a commercial electrical company in NY, and he informed me that pulling 110V off of a 220V dedicated line -

"It’s not good practice to pull off a dedicated circuit. The motors (VFD in my case) probably don’t need a neutral.  3 wires for motor black, red, green and then pull a 20amp 12 gauge circuit for the 110v loads ."

What are ya'lls thoughts on this? Does this fall into the "Code is iffy but it should be fine" or is there potential to harm things wired to it? I was also thinking I could have 2 banks of 110V outlets at each machine...One switched with a 220V switch for machine power, and one un-switched where it is always energized.


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## mksj

Many appliance use 4 wires and break out 120 and 240. You could use a MCCB breaker to break out the 120 at the machine. I use a 2 pole breaker and pull two banks of 120V (two dual gang sockets)  One factor is you need to consider the additional load and a circuit  imbalance effects on the panel breaker and also these days sockets in garages are suppose be on GFCI.  I am not sure what the difference is between a main panel breaker with a local MCCB breaker for sockets vs. two main panel breakers one for the machine and one for the sockets each sized accordingly. Industrial machines that need 120V feed a transformer from two legs of 3 phase. You could check with a local electrician about your local electrical codes.


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## Christianstark

Good stuff. I think at this point, knowing I need less than 20 feet or so of conduit, I think I may just pull 12 gauge on a 20 amp breaker for each machine, and run a single 110v leg for both machine locations. More straight forward than adding smaller breakers at the split, and worrying about balance. Thanks for the great explanation.



mksj said:


> Many appliance use 4 wires and break out 120 and 240. You could use a MCCB breaker to break out the 120 at the machine. I use a 2 pole breaker and pull two banks of 120V (two dual gang sockets)  One factor is you need to consider the additional load and a circuit  imbalance effects on the panel breaker and also these days sockets in garages are suppose be on GFCI.  I am not sure what the difference is between a main panel breaker with a local MCCB breaker for sockets vs. two main panel breakers one for the machine and one for the sockets each sized accordingly. Industrial machines that need 120V feed a transformer from two legs of 3 phase. You could check with a local electrician about your local electrical codes.


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## Christianstark

When I was heading to bed last night it dawned on me that it would be helpful for me to be able to figure out a way to cut power to the auto feed when power is lost to the mill. Not a big deal on the lathe, but if the mill lost power, and the auto feed was on a separate breaker, it could keep running and break a cutting tool, mess up tram, ruin the part, all in now swipe. Will be researching on routing power to the mill in a way that would help facilitate this.

I know the 833TV comes with a VFD installed. Does anyone know offhand if that VFD is programable by the user?


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## B2

The inverter is shown at  the end of the 833VT manual.  I cannot imagine that it is not programmable, but it looks like it might be a custom design.... not like a standard after market self contained VFD, but on a circuit board with external display etc.  There is a unused cable connector in the center - right that might be used to program it.  Sometimes these are for connecting a keyboard. The board has some numbers on it and what appears to be DYNA-06 but the display cable blocks the view.    So the trick is, can you find a part number and a manual.  Lots of VFD's out there will little or no documentation!

If you really want to know ask Matt (PM).  He is very helpful


Christianstark said:


> Very interested to see what you have come up with. Is there an existing thread yet?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not yet.  I need to do more documentation. -- Dave


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## mksj

The inverter is not programmable. If you loose power it would also shut down the power feed. The down side is if the power came back on the power feed would restart, the VFD I do not know.


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## Christianstark

Question for someone with a PM1340GT. Trying to get a dimension between the top point of the prismatic ways. Trying to plan ahead for leveling.

Thanks!


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## Aukai

Top point to where


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## Christianstark

Distance between the peak of the front way, to the peak of the rear way.



Aukai said:


> Top point to where


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## Christianstark

.|----------- This -----------|
/\___................................./\___


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## Aukai

Tape measure says 5 5/16, dial caliper says 5.290


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## Christianstark

Wow! I thought it would have been wider. Thanks!



Aukai said:


> Tape measure says 5 5/16, dial caliper says 5.290


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## Aukai

It is a little narrow.....


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## mksj

This is an example of an 8" level on the 1340GT. Since the level I have has a notch in the center I suspend it on 123 blocks equal distance front and back. Some people place the level on the cross slide. The flats are at the same level the /\ are not. It is all relative the goal is to minimize bed twist on a new lathe so I check the level at the head stock, mid-way and the tailstock end.


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## Christianstark

Thanks Mark! Looks like I will be able to get away with a 6" level on 1-2-3 blocks to accomplish initial leveling/twist adjustments.


mksj said:


> This is an example of an 8" level on the 1340GT. Since the level I have has a notch in the center I suspend it on 123 blocks equal distance front and back. Some people place the level on the cross slide. The flats are at the same level the /\ are not. It is all relative the goal is to minimize bed twist on a new lathe so I check the level at the head stock, mid-way and the tailstock end.
> View attachment 368495


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> Thanks Mark! Looks like I will be able to get away with a 6" level on 1-2-3 blocks to accomplish initial leveling/twist adjustments.


Make sure you get a level with enough resolution.  A lot of the smaller so called "machinist levels" aren't precise enough to do a good job leveling the bed ways.  I have a Starrett 199, and it's terrific, but expensive.  _*Mark's SPI 31-060-7*_ would be an excellent alternative that's half the cost of a Starrett 199.


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## Christianstark

Was going to pich up a Starrett 98-6 for this. $140 on Amazon.



davidpbest said:


> Make sure you get a level with enough resolution.  A lot of the smaller so called "machinist levels" aren't precise enough to do a good job leveling the bed ways.  I have a Starrett 199, and it's terrific, but expensive.  _*Mark's SPI 31-060-7*_ would be an excellent alternative that's half the cost of a Starrett 199.


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> Was going to pich up a Starrett 98-6 for this. $140 on Amazon.


Just so you have the right expectations, that Starrett 98-6 isn’t precise enough to align your lathe bed ways.  It resolves to 0.005” per foot which is fine to grossly level your lathe, but not accurate enough to align the bed.  Mark's SPI and my Starrett resolve to ten times that resolution.  There are other methods of aligning the bed that don’t require a level.  I suggest you watch *this video*, and _*this video*_ or search on "two collar method lathe leveling" for additional information.  To precisely align the headstock, you'd need a test bar *like this one*.  I have one I can lend you if you cover postage - DM me.  Some people use *this gizmo* to align the tailstock, but the 2-collar method works also.


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## Christianstark

Was planning on getting close, and then 2 collar method to dial it in. I’ll watch those videos tonight. May have already seen them




davidpbest said:


> Just so you have the right expectations, that Starrett 98-6 isn’t precise enough to align your lathe bed ways.  It resolves to 0.005” per foot which is fine to grossly level your lathe, but not accurate enough to align the bed.  Mark's SPI and my Starrett resolve to ten times that resolution.  There are other methods of aligning the bed that don’t require a level.  I suggest you watch *this video*, and _*this video*_ or search on "two collar method lathe leveling" for additional information.  To precisely align the headstock, you'd need a test bar *like this one*.  I have one I can lend you if you cover postage - DM me.  Some people use *this gizmo* to align the tailstock, but the 2-collar method works also.


----------



## jimbo fury

Grats on the new machines! I have a PM-833TV I am currently converting to full cnc


----------



## Christianstark

Well the machines aren’t here yet, but thanks. Looking forward to receiving them.


----------



## mksj

You might look at these levels, as the two ring tests assumes your headstock is aligned correctly which is typically not the case with the 1340GT. On a new lathe I get the bed level, and let it settle in and recheck it, then check the headstock alignment. On my 1340Gt it was slightly out of alignment. Both of these scales are a bit on the sensitive end of the spectrum, Kinex are quite good, but the Accusize also had good reviews. They are something that you use but a few times, so not worth spending a lot of $$ on, but get something decent and with the resolution you need.





						Accusize Industrial Tools 6 inch Professional Master Precision Level in Fitted Box, Accuracy 0.0002''/10'', S908-C606: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

Accusize Industrial Tools 6 inch Professional Master Precision Level in Fitted Box, Accuracy 0.0002''/10'', S908-C606: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				








						Kinex 5050-02-200 8” Precision Inspection Machinist Spirit Level, Overall Size 8” x 1-5/8” x 1-1/2”, Accurate to 0.00078” per Meter - - Amazon.com
					

Kinex 5050-02-200 8” Precision Inspection Machinist Spirit Level, Overall Size 8” x 1-5/8” x 1-1/2”, Accurate to 0.00078” per Meter - - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com


----------



## Christianstark

Damn. I pulled the trigger on one off eBay for about $122 delivered. Looks like I will be putting it up for sale on CL and getting an import. When I saw Starrett and machinist level, I assumed it would be sensitive enough.


mksj said:


> You might look at these levels, as the two ring tests assumes your headstock is aligned correctly which is typically not the case with the 1340GT. On a new lathe I get the bed level, and let it settle in and recheck it, then check the headstock alignment. On my 1340Gt it was slightly out of alignment. Both of these scales are a bit on the sensitive end of the spectrum, Kinex are quite good, but the Accusize also had good reviews. They are something that you use but a few times, so not worth spending a lot of $$ on, but get something decent and with the resolution you need.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Accusize Industrial Tools 6 inch Professional Master Precision Level in Fitted Box, Accuracy 0.0002''/10'', S908-C606: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> Accusize Industrial Tools 6 inch Professional Master Precision Level in Fitted Box, Accuracy 0.0002''/10'', S908-C606: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kinex 5050-02-200 8” Precision Inspection Machinist Spirit Level, Overall Size 8” x 1-5/8” x 1-1/2”, Accurate to 0.00078” per Meter - - Amazon.com
> 
> 
> Kinex 5050-02-200 8” Precision Inspection Machinist Spirit Level, Overall Size 8” x 1-5/8” x 1-1/2”, Accurate to 0.00078” per Meter - - Amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


----------



## navadel

What to do while waiting for my 833tv? Time to build a bench. It will not only hold the mill but also have roller drawers and a cabinet. (the slides are in the background of the 1st pic.  Have to stay busy....


----------



## Christianstark

Looks great! I wish I could weld like that. My welds are ugly in comparison.



navadel said:


> What to do while waiting for my 833tv? Time to build a bench. It will not only hold the mill but also have roller drawers and a cabinet. (the slides are in the background of the 1st pic.  Have to stay busy....


----------



## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> Damn. I pulled the trigger on one off eBay for about $122 delivered. Looks like I will be putting it up for sale on CL and getting an import. When I saw Starrett and machinist level, I assumed it would be sensitive enough.


I’ll repeat my offer to borrow the headstock alignment bar.


----------



## Christianstark

Thanks David. If 2 way shipping makes sense then I will graciously accept! Still looking at end of August till it gets to Pennsylvania.


davidpbest said:


> I’ll repeat my offer to borrow the headstock alignment bar.


----------



## navadel

navadel said:


> What to do while waiting for my 833tv? Time to build a bench. It will not only hold the mill but also have roller drawers and a cabinet. (the slides are in the background of the 1st pic.  Have to stay busy...




Getting closer. siding and a door to go..


----------



## davidpbest

navadel said:


> Getting closer. siding and a door to go..


Looking good.  Where did all the drawer components come from - did you part-out a Lista or similar?


----------



## navadel

davidpbest said:


> Looking good.  Where did all the drawer components come from - did you part-out a Lista or similar?


Hi David, thanks.


davidpbest said:


> Looking good.  Where did all the drawer components come from - did you part-out a Lista or similar?


Hi David, Thanks. All the drawers and slides were in a shop I do sublet work for. They were mounted to a wall in a rack system. The owner of the shop gave them to me. I ditched the rack system so I could utilize them as a base for the 833TV I am anxiously waiting on.


----------



## Christianstark

Would love some advice on milling tooling. I got $100 Amazon gift card, and I want to spend that on cutting tools for the mill. I have nothing currently. I plan to do work in aluminum and different types of steel, so investing in insert tooling is interesting, but I don't know what I don't know at this point.

First, what type of end mills should I get to start? Should I look into face mills as well?
Second, if indexable, what is the best road for me to go down on insert style, and size so I can ensure I have the capability to source inserts, common types and sizing, etc.


Any links to Amazon would be great. I literally have nothing, so I know I will need to buy as I go, but would like something to get me started when my machine gets here.

I was looking at this. Low stick out, fits my mill, APKT1604 seems popular, but I honestly have no idea...






						Amazon.com: Accusize Industrial Tools 1'' by 5-27/32'' 90 Degree R8 Shank Indexable End Mills with 2 Apkt1604 Carbide Inserts Installed, 0028-6903: Industrial & Scientific
					

Amazon.com: Accusize Industrial Tools 1'' by 5-27/32'' 90 Degree R8 Shank Indexable End Mills with 2 Apkt1604 Carbide Inserts Installed, 0028-6903: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				




OR am I better off going for something like this to start?






						End Mill Set, 20 Pieces 2 & 4 Flute, TiN Coated HSS: Square Nose End Mills: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

End Mill Set, 20 Pieces 2 & 4 Flute, TiN Coated HSS: Square Nose End Mills: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com


----------



## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> I was looking at this. Low stick out, fits my mill, APKT1604 seems popular, but I honestly have no idea...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Accusize Industrial Tools 1'' by 5-27/32'' 90 Degree R8 Shank Indexable End Mills with 2 Apkt1604 Carbide Inserts Installed, 0028-6903: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Accusize Industrial Tools 1'' by 5-27/32'' 90 Degree R8 Shank Indexable End Mills with 2 Apkt1604 Carbide Inserts Installed, 0028-6903: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OR am I better off going for something like this to start?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> End Mill Set, 20 Pieces 2 & 4 Flute, TiN Coated HSS: Square Nose End Mills: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> End Mill Set, 20 Pieces 2 & 4 Flute, TiN Coated HSS: Square Nose End Mills: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


That 20-piece end mill set is total junk - don't buy that.  I have no experience with Accusize, but I have an Iscar indexable end mill that's similar and uses the same APKT inserts and I like it a lot.  If you don't already own one of _*these, this*_ would be a good purchase - used to tram the mill, find center of a round part or hole, align the vise to the X-axis travel, etc.


----------



## StevSmar

Christianstark said:


> I will start researching how to add a sub panel to my existing 200A panel, so I can run the 220V needed for these machines.


Congratulations on your purchase! Exciting times!
Putting in a sub-panel was my task for last winter!


----------



## StevSmar

mksj said:


> Run #10 stranded so you can pull it through the conduit, it will also give you the option to use a 30A breaker if you move up to 3 Hp machines in the future. I pull 4 wire to my machines because I split off 120V for drives, DRO, etc. I use a supplemental breaker at the machine otherwise 20A 120V sockets.


That’s an interesting idea. I was going to oversize the wire anyway so it has sufficient ampacity for 30A.
I’ll probably run NMU-90 (normal sheathed house wire) through the ceiling joists and then surface in Rigid PVC down the wall to the outlet.


----------



## Christianstark

Just ordered the VFD, and this guy.



			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/279-TJT50068RJ


----------



## Cletus

Christianstark said:


> Would love some advice on milling tooling. I got $100 Amazon gift card, and I want to spend that on cutting tools for the mill. I have nothing currently. I plan to do work in aluminum and different types of steel, so investing in insert tooling is interesting, but I don't know what I don't know at this point.
> 
> First, what type of end mills should I get to start? Should I look into face mills as well?
> Second, if indexable, what is the best road for me to go down on insert style, and size so I can ensure I have the capability to source inserts, common types and sizing, etc.
> 
> 
> Any links to Amazon would be great. I literally have nothing, so I know I will need to buy as I go, but would like something to get me started when my machine gets here.
> 
> I was looking at this. Low stick out, fits my mill, APKT1604 seems popular, but I honestly have no idea...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Accusize Industrial Tools 1'' by 5-27/32'' 90 Degree R8 Shank Indexable End Mills with 2 Apkt1604 Carbide Inserts Installed, 0028-6903: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Accusize Industrial Tools 1'' by 5-27/32'' 90 Degree R8 Shank Indexable End Mills with 2 Apkt1604 Carbide Inserts Installed, 0028-6903: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OR am I better off going for something like this to start?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> End Mill Set, 20 Pieces 2 & 4 Flute, TiN Coated HSS: Square Nose End Mills: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> End Mill Set, 20 Pieces 2 & 4 Flute, TiN Coated HSS: Square Nose End Mills: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


FWIW, I recently purchased some Accusize Cobalt Roughing and Finishing Endmills and a 3" Carbide R8 Facemill, stocking up for my upcoming PM-935TS-3PH milling machine.  I have used the endmills in my CNC Mini Mill and I am impressed. The Roughing endmills really hog material out. I am quite impressed with the price, fit/finish and performance of Accusize products so far.   Other than that, I have a whole bunch of new Carbide endmills and ball-end endmills from Maritool in stock which I have been using successfully on the CNC Mini-mill over the years.  Just got a 12pc,  3", R8 Boring head kit on Amazon that looks like decent quality, but of course, not used it yet.
Everyday metrology stuff (digital micrometer, dial test gauges, height gauge, coaxial center finder, etc.) from Shars and Accusize. I do have a Mitutoyo digital micrometer on order which I intend to keep as a shop reference instrument. 
Yup, you can easily surpass the cost of the milling machine on tooling and accessories .....maybe it should be called a "Milking Machine"


----------



## Genghis6400

Finally! The 1340GT is here!! Took a bit of helps from the buddies to bring the lathe 5 steps down to the basement. Time to start reading the VDF basic (thank you to @mksj for sharing all the awesome infos and also to @davidpbest for your comments and ideas) @Christianstark I got the Hitachi VFD and the break resistor in the 3rd image.










@


----------



## Genghis6400

@davidpbest Greeting David, do you advise on changing out the oil and cleaning the headstock before using the lathe?


----------



## davidpbest

When I received my PM-1340GT, I drained the headstock, took off the top cover and inspected everything inside the headstock casting. 








 The oil was crystal clear, and I found zero grinding dust or swarf in the headstock.  So I would recommend you run the lathe through a break-in procedure first - something like 10 hours of spindle time total making sure you’ve run it in all the headstock gear setting for at least 30 minutes.   That break-in will certainly dislodge any burrs on the gears, and while I don’t think changing the oil after 10 hours is really necessary, doing so will give you the comfort of knowing you did so.  

Draining the headstock can be very messy because of the position of the drain plug.  I decided after my first draining experience to install an oil drain plumbing system that makes the procedure super easy and totally controllable.   You can see that in this photo:


__
		https://flic.kr/p/SKwL4J

Be careful refilling the headstock with fresh oil - it’s easy to not see the fill line in the sight-glass and over fill - you’ll know you’ve done that when the spindle bearings begin to ooze oil all over the bedways (been there). Congratulations on your new lathe - I really love my 1340 and continue to be amazed at what’s possible with it.


----------



## Christianstark

My plan was to run through a break in period as well David. Was also planning on adding a magnet to the inside of the head to attract and pull ferrous floaters out of suspension.


----------



## wrmiller

I did the break-in routine on my 1340 with the original oil in it. When I changed the oil, I removed the top cover and did an inspection of the headstock interior. It was nice and clean and needed nothing but oil.


----------



## Bob D

My 1440BV was delivered without oil in the headstock and a warning tag stating such. There was a small puddle of oil in the headstock and lots of casting sand/metal. I wiped up as much as could and filled it up. Hopefully I'll get the rest on the next oil change.


----------



## Genghis6400

davidpbest said:


> When I received my PM-1340GT, I drained the headstock, took off the top cover and inspected everything inside the headstock casting.
> 
> 
> View attachment 372092
> 
> 
> The oil was crystal clear, and I found zero grinding dust or swarf in the headstock.  So I would recommend you run the lathe through a break-in procedure first - something like 10 hours of spindle time total making sure you’ve run it in all the headstock gear setting for at least 30 minutes.   That break-in will certainly dislodge any burrs on the gears, and while I don’t think changing the oil after 10 hours is really necessary, doing so will give you the comfort of knowing you did so.
> 
> Draining the headstock can be very messy because of the position of the drain plug.  I decided after my first draining experience to install an oil drain plumbing system that makes the procedure super easy and totally controllable.   You can see that in this photo:
> 
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/SKwL4J
> 
> Be careful refilling the headstock with fresh oil - it’s easy to not see the fill line in the sight-glass and over fill - you’ll know you’ve done that when the spindle bearings begin to ooze oil all over the bedways (been there). Congratulations on your new lathe - I really love my 1340 and continue to be amazed at what’s possible with





davidpbest said:


> When I received my PM-1340GT, I drained the headstock, took off the top cover and inspected everything inside the headstock casting.
> 
> 
> View attachment 372092
> 
> 
> The oil was crystal clear, and I found zero grinding dust or swarf in the headstock.  So I would recommend you run the lathe through a break-in procedure first - something like 10 hours of spindle time total making sure you’ve run it in all the headstock gear setting for at least 30 minutes.   That break-in will certainly dislodge any burrs on the gears, and while I don’t think changing the oil after 10 hours is really necessary, doing so will give you the comfort of knowing you did so.
> 
> Draining the headstock can be very messy because of the position of the drain plug.  I decided after my first draining experience to install an oil drain plumbing system that makes the procedure super easy and totally controllable.   You can see that in this photo:
> 
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/SKwL4J
> 
> Be careful refilling the headstock with fresh oil - it’s easy to not see the fill line in the sight-glass and over fill - you’ll know you’ve done that when the spindle bearings begin to ooze oil all over the bedways (been there). Congratulations on your new lathe - I really love my 1340 and continue to be amazed at what’s possible with it.


David, 
     Many thanks for your advices! I will surely take cautions when performing this oil change/check. I have not clean the Cosmoline off the machine yet. I’m thinking of using lighter fluid to clean off the Cosmoline, what do you recommend for this? Or should I use WD-40. I also just purchase one of them VIS 8inch level to level the lathe down the road . The VIS level accuracy is .0005/10inch, is that accurate enough? Please kindly advise me anything that you can think of about setting up this 1340gt, your knowledge are greatly appreciated.


----------



## davidpbest

Lighter fluid is Naphtha and highly flammable.   It might actually dissolve the paint.  I would stick with kerosene or WD40.   Yes, 0.0005" over 10" is an accurate enough level.  Just about everything I've done setting up my 1340 is documented in my Flickr archives _*here*_ (along with a lot of other shop stuff you can ignore - LOL).


----------



## Jake P

Genghis6400 said:


> Finally! The 1340GT is here!!


I'm just curious as to what was the date that your order was placed?  I'm afraid I missed this shipment by a hair, not that it matters.  Here's to hoping that a September arrival isn't delayed again.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> I'm just curious as to what was the date that your order was placed? I'm afraid I missed this shipment by the a hair, not that it matters. Here's to hoping that a September arrival isn't delayed again.



I was told at first that I was on this shipment. Then I wasn’t.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## navadel

At last my 833 will be delivered tomorrow!! Question regarding the included 10x100mm mounting hardware. Is the headwear stainless? Also what is the depth of the bottom mounting plate, from where the bolt rest's to the to of the chip tray? 
Thanks guys..


----------



## Christianstark

So I got everything delivered for my VFD enclosure. Went with a fan-less sized enclosure. 

Everything included is:

Disconnect
fast fuses
breaker for splitting off 110V x 2
Braking resistor
50' of 12g stranded THHN wire in red, black, green, and white
Din mounted terminal blocks for wiring. 

Time to lay out the components on the backer plate.


----------



## Christianstark

Would love to get some thoughts on this initial layout. Third picture is the braking resistor, which I figured I would mount inside the enclosure on the wall. Ill probably just use heavy duty outdoor grade velcro to adhere it so I don't have to bolt it to the chassis. I COULD also mount it to the back or the plate, as it is thinner than the standoffs. I was not expecting the VFD to be as deep as it is. The DIN rail on the bottom would have plenty of real estate to add more functionality like DC low voltage to power a tach, or something like that. The breaker would be for splitting off 2 15 amp sockets. 1 from each leg of the 220V input. Everything would be behind the power disconnect switch.


----------



## mksj

VFD should be mid position between the top and bottom, needs at least 4" above for ventilation.  Brake resistor on the side is fine, center on the wall. I crimp on spades to attach it to the brake terminals be mindful to attach to the correct terminals, last person that I helped got it wrong and cooked his VFD.  I would mount the switch, fuse holder and breaker on one DIN rail near the top, so all the HV wiring is in the same area. DIN rail across below the for DIN terminals, power supply or whatever you want to add later. Otherwise switch can go below or the breaker, whatever works.


----------



## Christianstark

mksj said:


> VFD should be mid position between the top and bottom, needs at least 4" above for ventilation.  Brake resistor on the side is fine, center on the wall. I crimp on spades to attach it to the brake terminals be mindful to attach to the correct terminals, last person that I helped got it wrong and cooked his VFD.  I would mount the switch, fuse holder and breaker on one DIN rail near the top, so all the HV wiring is in the same area. DIN rail across below the for DIN terminals, power supply or whatever you want to add later. Otherwise switch can go below or the breaker, whatever works.


OK So moving some stuff around looks like this. Din Rail for expansion can go on bottom where pen is. This more like what you were thinking? Also, the 5mm x 5mm bar for the power disconnect is on backorder. I may swap the location of the disconnect and the terminal blocks for a cleaner look. Can the disconnect function properly mechanically if the disconnect is closer to the hinge side? I just have never dealt with that before.


----------



## Christianstark

Power comes in to disconnect, and then enters the top of the terminal blocks. From the bottom of the terminal blocks, it splits off with one black and one red going into the fuse box and then the VFD. A ground will also run to the VFD completing the 220V single phase power in. Next a black going to one side of the breaker, and a red going to the other, The breaker will run 2 separate outlets for 110V. That will need a separate white/neutral for each. They will also need a ground to each This would complete the 110V power for plug in accessories like the DRO and Power Feeds. That is why I had the terminal blocks up top, so I could cut down on zigzagging wires.


----------



## Christianstark




----------



## Christianstark

Hey Mark, one more question for you since you now have me paranoid about the braking resistor...LOL

First question - Is the jumper left in place when using the external braking resistor?

Second Question - If NOT, then which one of these images is correct? The photo or the schematic below it? The RB connection looks right, but the photo is attached to + and the schematic is to +1. Again, if its still jumped its a moot point.

@mksj


----------



## mksj

The jumper stays in place, connect the brake to the RB terminal and either the +1 or + terminal.

You want the switch on the opposite side of the hinge,

Any of your designs will work, I do not use the DIN connection blocks typically for high voltage I wire everything point to point. I will use wire ferrules, but terminals will work with bare wire of the same gauge. TIghten but do not overighten to the point that the wires can break. Do the pull test to make sure they are seated. I recheck the terminals in about a week as the wire can shift or settle. First 2 picturers are other peoples enclosures, 3rd one is one of my integrated systems for the 1340GT.


----------



## Christianstark

mksj said:


> The jumper stays in place, connect the brake to the RB terminal and either the +1 or + terminal.
> 
> You want the switch on the opposite side of the hinge,
> 
> Any of your designs will work, I do not use the DIN connection blocks typically for high voltage I wire everything point to point. I will use wire ferrules, but terminals will work with bare wire of the same gauge. TIghten but do not overighten to the point that the wires can break. Do the pull test to make sure they are seated. I recheck the terminals in about a week as the wire can shift or settle. First 2 picturers are other peoples enclosures, 3rd one is one of my integrated systems for the 1340GT.
> 
> View attachment 372696
> 
> View attachment 372697
> View attachment 372698


I’ll be using ferrules as well.


----------



## Jake P

mksj said:


> First 2 picturers are other peoples enclosures, 3rd one is one of my integrated systems for the 1340GT.
> 
> View attachment 372696



The first image here was one that I sent to Mark when I was putting my enclosure together.  Mark has been very helpful with guidance!

Here's a shot with more connections.  I've since brought in the motor to VFD connection and the mains power.  I'm still waiting for the lathe so this is as far as I am taking it for now.  The lathe main board to VFD connections are all that remain.

I went with Mark's larger enclosure recommendation to avoid cooling fans.  If my shop reaches 80 it's a rare day, usually 65-70, so I am not worried about overheating.

Thanks again Mark for the help!


----------



## Christianstark

Drilled the backplate after work today.

here’s what’s mounted for wiring. Planning on doing a little bit this evening.


----------



## Christianstark

Also, neither machine is on a boat yet, and they are now slated to get to PM mid September. I just wish the damn things would get on a boat.


----------



## Cletus

OH YES, The wait is an absolute killer!!


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Also, neither machine is on a boat yet, and they are now slated to get to PM mid September. I just wish the damn things would get on a boat.


I had hoped to see my 1340GT buy at least the end of September, but according to that update it will be well into November before I see it.  Ouch.

Oops, I meant October


----------



## grover

Jake P said:


> I had hoped to see my 1340GT buy at least the end of September, but according to that update it will be well into November before I see it.  Ouch.


I am waiting on a PM940.  Just today I see this. Duck Duck search this....this is after they get the container off the boat! 7 day delay
Union Pacific eastbound railway container service temporarily halted to Chicago due to “significant congestion”​


----------



## Christianstark

So I made up the first leg of internal wiring. This 6 sided ferrule tool is excellent. Once power comes to the disconnect, it leaves there and travels to terminal blocks for distribution. The blocks are all jumped within colors, so Black, Red, and White all have 4 total terminations each, one from the breaker to 3 for distro. The grounds have 1 back to box, to 7. Next step will be to break off 2 reds, and 2 blacks, 1 set each for the fuses en route to the VFD, and to the breaker, for switched 110V outlets. Those will come out the top of the terminal blocks, and down through the respective devices.


----------



## Christianstark

Next step is wired. All wiring being done with 10G Stranded THHN.


----------



## xr650rRider

How you going to get a bolt in that backplate for top right corner?


----------



## Christianstark

xr650rRider said:


> How you going to get a bolt in that backplate for top right corner?


Ill probably just sand that mounting point off since I am using it on a DIN...or just slide the whole assembly over a tad...


----------



## Christianstark

This toy just came in. Someone is gettin fancy...


----------



## Just for fun

Looking good


----------



## Larry$

How do you rate? Mine didn't come with a purple ribbon!


----------



## Christianstark

Larry$ said:


> How do you rate? Mine didn't come with a purple ribbon!


Purple ribbon?


----------



## Christianstark

So I did a wee bit more wiring, but I think I am at a stopping point for now. Not sure I can go any further till I mount it inside the box, and run 110V out to a box to mount right next to it. OR till I get my lathe, which is looking like now it won't be till October.


----------



## Larry$

Christianstark said:


> Purple ribbon?


His lifting slings in the view of the lathe in the basement. Comments are out of order.


----------



## wachuko

Christianstark said:


> Purple ribbon?


He is referring to this post from Genghis6400... not related to what you are doing.

Thank you for sharing the progress.  Can't wait for your equipment to arrive (but I bet not as much as you are ).


----------



## Christianstark

Been working on demoing my office, and turning it into a shop. Ripped the carpet up, and removed the 60’s linoleum tiles. Concrete looks good but I’m going to do the self leveling garage floor epoxy in there. I found some electrical issues, so I ripped out the Sheetrock ceiling to make it right. Bought an HVLP Wagner, and decided to paint the now unfinished ceiling. Making progress.


----------



## wachuko

Looking good!


----------



## Genghis6400

Jake P said:


> I'm just curious as to what was the date that your order was placed?  I'm afraid I missed this shipment by a hair, not that it matters.  Here's to hoping that a September arrival isn't delayed again.


Jake, sorry for the late reply. I order the mill during the holidays so the lathe was put in mid-late Jan.


----------



## Christianstark

I got the last part for my VFD enclosure in. Looks like I will need to cut this part in order to get it to work.


----------



## Christianstark

A little bit of measuring, drilling, and cutting and I am all set!


----------



## Christianstark

Last update for the day will be the workspace. Decided to do the Rock Solid floor, I think rustoleum. Diddnt need to be perfect. Planning on installing 4x8 sheets of PVC wall sheathing in here next.


----------



## Genghis6400

Christianstark said:


> A little bit of measuring, drilling, and cutting and I am all set!
> 
> View attachment 373548
> View attachment 373549
> View attachment 373550


Come out real nice! I’m just gonna be imitating What you are doing!


----------



## Christianstark

So for those waiting on the next container for either 833TV or 1340, I have 2 ship names. The machines are not currently on the ships, but I think the ships are both either en-route to Asia or preparing to head that way.

833TV - https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:463368/zoom:10

1340GT - https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:462423/zoom:14


----------



## Jake P

So I suspect you got this info from PM?

Appears that the first ship is headed to Pusan Korea as it’s first stop, and the second directly to Taipei Taiwan, but still in port at Oakland, CA.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> So I suspect you got this info from PM?
> 
> Appears that the first ship is headed to Pusan Korea as it’s first stop, and the second directly to Taipei Taiwan, but still in port at Oakland, CA.


Correct.

That is the information John gave me yesterday.


----------



## Cletus

My PM-935TS-3PH is in, but they're awaiting the DROs to arrive.


----------



## Christianstark

Looks like Ever Steady got delayed in port. Ironic.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Looks like Ever Steady got delayed in port. Ironic.


Yep, and the online shipping calculator that I looked at gave an estimated enroute time from OAK to TPE of 22-30 days.

So even if it leaves today it won't make TPE until around the end of August.  Then they need to unload and reload in TPE, and assuming that it's headed directly back to OAK and not making other stops (unlikely) and does not get delayed in port there (unlikely again), then it's a good two or three months away at the minimum.  Then they still need to unload in the US, then ship to PA, then prep time at PM's location before shipping out to us.  So I suspect at this rate we will be very lucky if we see these lathes in early November to December.  Darn.  And the original projection at purchase was July at PM's location.

And we haven't even gotten fully into the second round of COVID hysteria yet.  They're ratcheting up the hysteria now.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Yep, and the online shipping calculator that I looked at gave an estimated enroute time from OAK to TPE of 22-30 days.
> 
> So even if it leaves today it won't make TPE until around the end of August.  Then they need to unload and reload in TPE, and assuming that it's headed directly back to OAK and not making other stops (unlikely) and does not get delayed in port there (unlikely again), then it's a good two or three months away at the minimum.  Then they still need to unload in the US, then ship to PA, then prep time at PM's location before shipping out to us.  So I suspect at this rate we will be very lucky if we see these lathes in early November to December.  Darn.  And the original projection at purchase was July at PM's location.
> 
> And we haven't even gotten into the second round of COVID hysteria yet.  They're ratcheting up the hysteria now.


I’m not sure 22-30 days is right for just the trip accross. Don’t lose hope yet!


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> I’m not sure 22-30 days is right for just the trip accross. Don’t lose hope yet!


Sure hope not!


----------



## Jake P

Just used a different calculator and it showed 18 days at 13 knots and 24 days at 10 knots.

But I just looked at the first ship and it looks to be doing around 18 knots, so that would be around 13 days.

Not sure what these ships do fully loaded?


----------



## Jake P

Just read an article that says these ships are capable of 25 knots, but a few years ago the shipping companies started slowing down to reduce fuel consumption.  Maersk, it said, had adopted a 12 knot standard speed and reduced consumption by around 30%.  Maybe with the backlog now they are pushing a little harder again?


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Just read an article that says these ships are capable of 25 knots, but a few years ago the shipping companies started slowing down to reduce fuel consumption.  Maersk, it said, had adopted a 12 knot standard speed and reduced consumption by around 30%.  Maybe with the backlog now they are pushing a little harder again?


The 833 ship is averaging 19.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> The 833 ship is averaging 19.
> View attachment 373874


Is that a free app that you're using?


----------



## yota

I wonder if since its going to Taiwan it will be picking up 728VT mills?


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Is that a free app that you're using?


Yes!


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Yes!


OK, I give up 

What's the name?

Wait a minute......... is that the app version of the website that you linked to?


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> OK, I give up
> 
> What's the name?
> 
> Wait a minute......... is that the app version of the website that you linked to?


Lol yeah, sorry. I’m a bit slow.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Lol yeah, sorry. I’m a bit slow.


No worries.  I found it and got it loaded.  Pretty cool app!


----------



## Jake P

The Ever Steady appears to be ever steady!  

Perhaps the power of positive pessimism will get it moving!

Update at 2020 PDT:
The power of positive pessimism comes through!
The Ever Steady has gone out the Golden Gate and is projected to reach Taipei on the 13th now.


----------



## Christianstark

Busy weekend! Got my electrical panel removed from the in-wall config, to on wall, and installed PVC panels, and 6x4' LED lights. The room is BRIGHT. I still need to cover the service wires coming in to the box, but the shop is coming along!


----------



## Christianstark

The 833TV Ship is en-route to Taiwan! yay!

The 1340GT Ship finally pinged and updated the website on its location, and is in the Bearing Sea just north of the Aleutian Islands.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> The 833TV Ship is en-route to Taiwan! yay!
> 
> The 1340GT Ship finally pinged and updated the website on its location, and is in the Bearing Sea just north of the Aleutian Islands.


I saw that too!


----------



## navadel

Happy with the way it turned out!!


----------



## Jake P

navadel said:


> Happy with the way it turned out!!


I see you have the new DRO for the mill. They don't even list it on their website yet.


----------



## yota

Christianstark said:


> The 833TV Ship is en-route to Taiwan! yay!
> 
> The 1340GT Ship finally pinged and updated the website on its location, and is in the Bearing Sea just north of the Aleutian Islands.


that seems an odd route for getting to Taiwan.  road trip!


----------



## Christianstark

yota said:


> that seems an odd route for getting to Taiwan.  road trip!


Flat maps don’t really represent the shortest route to places. Take a string on a globe, and stretch it between Taiwan and San Fran and it bends toward the North Pole.


----------



## mksj

Rhumb line, the shortest distance is a curved line on a sphere, in addition both ships and airplanes must stay in designated lanes and altitudes for air. Sailed the south pacific in my earlier days before they had GPS, and used a sextant for navigation.


----------



## Christianstark

mksj said:


> Rhumb line, the shortest distance is a curved line on a sphere, in addition both ships and airplanes must stay in designated lanes and altitudes for air. Sailed the south pacific in my earlier days before they had GPS, and used a sextant for navigation.


That’s awesome! My retirement dream is a live aboard catamaran, with a home base house and shop. Migrate for the winter to the Caribbean


----------



## yota

makes sense.  or maybe they had to pick up some king crab.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> That’s awesome! My retirement dream is a live aboard catamaran, with a home base house and shop. Migrate for the winter to the Caribbean


Been thinking the same for some years now.  Something around a 45 ft. cat would be awesome!

The major thing holding us back is the likelihood of potentially losing your boat due to hurricanes.

My dad had a tri years ago and almost lost it around Bermuda in a hurricane.  About a year later he ended up hitting a stray container in the night in a storm south of Cuba and lost his starboard hull.  He was able to limp the boat back into Havana Bay.  But that wasn’t until he had spent two days in the storm sitting in the cockpit of his tri (now a bi) afraid to go beneath because without one hull it would have been easy to flip and he did not have escape hatches.

It’s a hazardous place with many ways to find trouble!

And then there’s the question of leaving the cat tied up in a berth or pulling it out every year into dry dock?  Not a cheap proposition either way.


----------



## Cletus

While in the Caribbean, if you make it down to Trinidad, be sure to give me a call!


----------



## wachuko

Cletus said:


> While in the Caribbean, if you make it down to Trinidad, be sure to give me a call!


And grab a few doubles while you are at it!!  Delicious!!


----------



## Cletus

wachuko said:


> And grab a few doubles while you are at it!!  Delicious!!


Man, you know the Thing!!


----------



## Christianstark

The 833TV Ship is in port in Taiwan! Progress!


----------



## Rodneyk

Jake P said:


> Just used a different calculator and it showed 18 days at 13 knots and 24 days at 10 knots.
> 
> But I just looked at the first ship and it looks to be doing around 18 knots, so that would be around 13 days.
> 
> Not sure what these ships do fully loaded?


When mine came the slowest part was through panama.  The load and unload times are pretty fast these days, in New York they go from the ship to train in less than 2 day. The next step is once PM gets the crates they inspect and repack them and that take a little while.  

Hope you get you equipment soon!


----------



## Christianstark

Ever Steady has made up some significant ground on Oakland.

ES is approaching Taiwan now, and Oakland has been anchored outside of Hong Kong for quite some time.


----------



## Christianstark

Update - The 833TV is no longer shipping on the Oakland. It is going to be on the OOCL Chicago, which should be porting in Taiwan in 2 days.

1340GT shipment is still traveling on Ever Steady. 833TV to PM mid to late September, 1340GT to PM late Sept.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Update - The 833TV is no longer shipping on the Oakland. It is going to be on the OOCL Chicago, which should be porting in Taiwan in 2 days.
> 
> 1340GT shipment is still traveling on Ever Steady. 833TV to PM mid to late September, 1340GT to PM late Sept.


I suspect that a lot can change before this tale is over!


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> I suspect that a lot can change before this tale is over!











						China partly closes world’s third-busiest port after one COVID case
					

The move is in line with China's zero-tolerance approach to COVID.




					fortune.com


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> China partly closes world’s third-busiest port after one COVID case
> 
> 
> The move is in line with China's zero-tolerance approach to COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fortune.com


I suspect that this is going to get a lot worse as we move into fall and winter again.  There are a lot of entities with varied agendas vying for power and control.  This is the perfect situation upon which to capitalize towards those ends.


----------



## Jake P

Just as I posted my last response I got a notification from “Marine Traffic” app that the Eversteady has changed port destinations from Taipei to Xiamen China.  So there goes that ride!  

I guess we now to get to wait and see what the new schedule is once again.  

We might see these machines in 2021???  Or not.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Just as I posted my last response I got a notification from “Marine Traffic” app that the Eversteady has changed port destinations from Taipei to Xiamen China.  So there goes that ride!
> 
> I guess we now to get to wait and see what the new schedule is once again.
> 
> We might see these machines in 2021???  Or not.


Was just coming back here to say that...

My HOPE is that the re-routed to get the China port call out of the way now, while that port is still open, instead of going after Taiwan and risking having to anchor for a week due to a shut down.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Was just coming back here to say that...
> 
> My HOPE is that the re-routed to get the China port call out of the way now, while that port is still open, instead of going after Taiwan and risking having to anchor for a week due to a shut down.


That certainly seems like a logical assumption.  Do you know if that port was on the schedule already?

I sure hope you're right, this is getting very long in the tooth so to speak.

Edit:  I was just wondering if you had gotten some insight from PM?  But re-reading your post I see that it’s not the case.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> That certainly seems like a logical assumption.  Do you know if that port was on the schedule already?
> 
> I sure hope you're right, this is getting very long in the tooth so to speak.
> 
> Edit:  I was just wondering if you had gotten some insight from PM?  But re-reading your post I see that it’s not the case.


I did get the new boat information from PM today.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> I did get the new boat information from PM today.


Well, it will be interesting to see if you get another update from PM as to whether or not the Eversteady is still slated for the 1340’s or not.

I wonder if these ships are going to offload on the west coast or go through the Panama Canal and up the east coast?

It’s an amazing amount of logistics that it takes to move goods around the globe!


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Well, it will be interesting to see if you get another update from PM as to whether or not the Eversteady is still slated for the 1340’s or not.
> 
> I wonder if these ships are going to offload on the west coast or go through the Panama Canal and up the east coast?
> 
> It’s an amazing amount of logistics that it takes to move goods around the globe!


I’m not sure about the Ever Steady, but Chicago is slated for porting in Seattle, and the container would go by rail to PA. This is the 833 ship.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> I’m not sure about the Ever Steady, but Chicago is slated for porting in Seattle, and the container would go by rail to PA. This is the 833 ship.


I would suspect that would be the best option.  As I understand it, rail is the cheapest way to move goods in the world of transportation, but I could be mis-informed.

It’s an interesting coincidence (for lack of the word I am unable to recall at the moment) that should the 1340’s take the same route of the 833’s, that my lathe may very well go across the tracks about a mile from my house on it’s way to PA, before being shipped back to me on a truck.

Our little town here in the north of Idaho is a thoroughfare for rail out of the PNW headed east and rail moving the opposite direction.  I’ve seen many Boeing 737 “green” fuselages rolling though town headed east for further assembly.  Tons and tons of rail roll through our little town daily.


----------



## j-becker

Jake P said:


> I would suspect that would be the best option.  As I understand it, rail is the cheapest way to move goods in the world of transportation, but I could be mis-informed.



I think it depends on how you are looking at the cost.  If you look at cost as dollar per ton-mile, the sequence for modalities from cheap to expensive is generally sea/water < rail < intermodal (rail/truck) < truck < air.  But if you take fixed cost (e.g. loading / modality change) into account, you can roughly say that up to a few hundred miles (~350-500 mi in 2000) truck has the lowest total cost, followed by rail to about 1000 mi and water (ocean/coastal/river) fro any longer distance.  This data may all be a bit dated (I was part of a EU future of supply chain management project nearly 20 years ago) so please don't take this for gospel. 

So no, I can't weigh in how these scheduling ship decisions are made (unfortunately).


----------



## Rodneyk

My machines were on the boat from Taiwan, approached the west coast, then turned south to go through the Panama canal, up to New York. Got put on a train to PM, was offloaded, inspected, repackaged, and put on a truck to cross the US to the west coast, then transferred to  a smaller delivery vehicle.  In both cases the delivery truck was barely able to off load the machines because of the tailgate size.  It killed me to see the machines come so close to Seattle only to veer south to go to New York.

But the wait was work it. I love the machines almost as much as my wife, maybe a little more on some days


----------



## Christianstark

So I have a few questions.

I want to be able to cut curves, radii, etc. I also want to be able to, less importantly, cut gears. I have no plans on spirals.

Would a horizontal/vert rotary table with dividing plates be more useful than a BS-1 dividing head for me? What size?

2nd question. Looking at buying a Machinery’s Handbook. What version hits the price/content sweet spot for non CNC use? I will probably get into modeling with CAD.

thanks!


----------



## Cletus

I gave Chevy my 26th edition years ago as a gift when he visited my shop, to encourage him in setting up his own Machine Shop as I noted his eagerness. 
Two weeks ago, bought a used, excellent condition, 25th edition on Amazon for like $30 and very happy with it.  The newer editions mainly just have CNC info appended to the other relevant info.

I have  a Phase II 4" Rotary Table I've used to cut curves, radii, gears etc on my Mini-Mill, and that has worked fine for me. When I CNCed the Mini-Mill, I bought a CNC-ready 3" Rotary Table and added a pneumatically raised Lexan enclosure, to make it my 4-axis, CNC VMC.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> My HOPE is that the re-routed to get the China port call out of the way now, while that port is still open, instead of going after Taiwan and risking having to anchor for a week due to a shut down.


Looks like your logic was sound!  The Ever Steady is now showing due in Taipei on the 17th.


----------



## Christianstark

Ever Steady is in Taipei, and Chicago is moored and waiting for taxi into Shenzhen.


----------



## Cletus

Shipping is a nightmare these days for sure!


----------



## Christianstark

Ever Steady is en-route to LAX. Arrival set. 8-31-21


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Ever Steady is en-route to LAX. Arrival set. 8-31-21


We just might see our machines by mid/late Oct then!


----------



## Christianstark

New update from Precision Matthews.

1340GT - OOCL Oakland - Arrives in Seattle Sept 4th.
833TV - OOCL Chicago - Arrives in Seattle Sept 7th.

OOCL Oakland is currently in Taiwan at port.
OOCL Chicago is currently in port in China, and has already been to Taiwan

Ever Steady is no longer a viable ship to track.


----------



## Jake P

I guess realistically it‘s likely going to be late Oct to early Nov at this point?

I wonder how it works when the containers offload in port.  If the entire container load is going to PM, then I suppose it gets transferred straight to rail and then starts out across the country.  But if the entire load is not one shipment then there has to be some redistribution at some point in the journey.

I am not finding anything definitive as to the rail times coast to coast.  I would guess with the likelihood that the container would be transferred from one operator to another (BNSF - UP for instance) as it moves across the country that it could be 2-3 weeks to make it from SEA to PA.

Then PM needs at least a few weeks to sort, inspect, repack and ship out.  Then the road trip begins back across the country.

Christian, you being in Atlanta should see yours sooner.  But then I guess it also depends on where we are on the list in this shipment.  Last time I emailed with John he stated that I was #13 on the list for this shipment.  I imagine when a large shipment comes in at PM that they are crazy busy!

edit:  I just found the email with PM and I’m #6 in line, not #13 as I recalled.


----------



## Christianstark

1340GT - OOCL Oakland - Arrives in Seattle Sept 4th.
833TV - OOCL Chicago - Arrives in Seattle Sept 7th.

OOCL Oakland is currently en route to Vancouver.
OOCL Chicago has left Shenzhen and is slowly motoring across to Hong Kong, 17 NM away.


----------



## Jake P

Looks like the 1340GT’s will get to SEA this evening!


----------



## Christianstark

Yeah. The 1340’s have taken the lead. 833’s almost 2 weeks behind.


----------



## Christianstark

The Lathe is stateside. Now they take rail to Pitt. Progress!


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> The Lathe is stateside. Now they take rail to Pitt. Progress!


I still haven‘t found anything on how long to expect the rail journey to take.  Hopefully the container will be on a rail car quickly!


----------



## Ischgl99

Reading the last few pages, it feels like I am watching a couple turtles racing lol


----------



## Jake P

Ischgl99 said:


> Reading the last few pages, it feels like I am watching a couple turtles racing lol


Feels like "Ground Hog Day", months of the same thing.......................................... waiting!


----------



## Cletus

Hahahaha!  ..... I know the feeling!


----------



## Ischgl99

Jake P said:


> Feels like "Ground Hog Day", months of the same thing.......................................... waiting!


Hopefully it arrives soon, the waiting would be killing me!


----------



## Rodneyk

The rail is pretty quick I think, but then QMT spends time QC before it gets shipped to you.. Not long now...


----------



## Jake P

Christian, have you contacted John to see if they’ve gotten any notification as to the rail status of the lathe shipment?

I would expect to hear from them soon as they want full payment made when they receive the lathe.  Hopefully by the end of the week?


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Christian, have you contacted John to see if they’ve gotten any notification as to the rail status of the lathe shipment?
> 
> I would expect to hear from them soon as they want full payment made when they receive the lathe.  Hopefully by the end of the week?


I already paid in full, but I was planning on calling tomorrow or Wednesday. I think they were supposed to be in Pittsburg on the 14th. Not sure if that means at PM or at the rail yard.


----------



## Christianstark

1340GT still on rail but not to PM yet. John said maybe end of next week, as rail can take 2+ weeks.

833TV still on a ship moored outside of Vancouver. Its been there for a few days now, I assume waiting for unload/reload in Vancouver before traveling to Seattle. Estimate here to PM is mid October.


----------



## Christianstark

Would love some advice on Order of operations when the lathe arrives. 

I will need to :

- Wire it up to VFD enclosure, and program
- Install DRO's
- Level and align
- Deep Clean and lubricate
- What am I missing here?

What would be the proper order for the above?

Other considerations:

- How much room do I need to leave at the rear of the lathe to get to wiring? Specifically, how much room behind the splash guard so I can determine where the base needs to go before installing the lathe on it? Id like to not have to move it once in place if possible.


----------



## Cletus

I compiled this list in my pre-planning and it worked out well for me on arrival of th machine. It kept me focused and on track:


----------



## j-becker

Christianstark said:


> Other considerations:
> 
> - How much room do I need to leave at the rear of the lathe to get to wiring? Specifically, how much room behind the splash guard so I can determine where the base needs to go before installing the lathe on it? Id like to not have to move it once in place if possible.



I build the stand for my 1340 based on David Best's design.  The enclosure for the VFD is on the left and after wiring it up I have not yet needed access to the original box in the back.  If I need to do that, I would need to pull the lathe forward with a pallet jack.  Obviously you want to level it in the final position.  My stand has only half an inch clearance to the wall but the splash guard has about 2.5" based on how I placed my lathe on the stand.  This gives you enough clearance to add a stand for tool holders or clearance for an outlet behind the splashguard.

One additional note on the stand.  I build it to David's dimensions but you could build it maybe 4-6" shorter if pressed for space.  You will still need some of the space for moving the head stock all the way to the right and you will need the space to the left for feeding through the head stock (so that end should not face a wall). But this is "airspace" and would not prevent you to have the stand closer in dimension to the lathe.


----------



## Rodneyk

My 2 cents:

I suggest doing as much of the cleaning to remove the tourmaline as soon as you uncrate before you move it in to place while it is centered in the workspace. My lathe came full of oil, BUT in the process of moving it in to place it got tilted far enough to loose a significant amount of oil.  Make sure the lathe is BALANCED well because it gets dicey once it starts leaning.

You MIGHT want to install the new back control panel (the one that replaced the one in the box on the lathe) to the  before moving the lathe to the stand, but I did it after. As long as you have space it is okay either way.

I used the stand from PM. Level the Stand as much as possible with a machinist level. Leave enough room behind the lathe to walk behind. I am a skinny person and I only left a small space (13") and was able to manage, but in hind sight a larger area would have made setting up the DRO easier. If you can get away with more space I would do so. TO give you some idea, my hips are about 15 inches wide. With the stand at 13" the splash guard is only 7" away from the wall and the control box door (closed) is about 10" from the wall.  If I was doing it again I would put the stand at least 18"from the wall and more likely 24"

Move the lathe from the palette to the stand.
Getting the lathe off the palette was a process for me since I was using engine hoist.
    Basically I had cut some of the palette to get the hoist under the machine (that worked well),
    Lift the machine to remove the palette.
    Lower the machine on to some block so I could reposition the hoist (since the machine was in a position that I could not get the hoist in from the correct side to begin with.
   Note the Milling machine required additional step since it is on a double palette and the hoist could not be positioned close to the machine with the pallet there. 

Once on the stand finish cleaning the machine and oiling.

The order of the VFD and the DRO does not really matter since you can test both independently from the other.  I installed my VFD first so I could see it come to life.  Following the instructions that come from Mark almost verbatim with only deviations where the machine was slightly different.  After the VFD is installed and before installing the drive belts make sure you run the tuning operation (it is in the instructions too)

If you are adding an RPM monitor do it at the same time as the VFD, since you already have to have the side of the machine off.  For me I repurposed the bracket that detects if that panel is installed. I made a small bracket to hold the RPM sensor that attached to the the same holes as the sensor and taped the magnet to the spindle (not sure it is necessary but I applied the electrical tape all the way around the spindle twice).

Once everything is in place you can nudge the lathe closer to the wall (though I think you should not), then start the process of leveling and checking for twist.  Go slow and understand how each of the feet affects the level. It took me far longer than I expected since the machinist level is SOOO sensitive.

When putting the belts on DO NOT over tighten.  This can result it wierd vibrations, If anything start with removing a little pressure from the belt from gravity. That drove me nuts.  I selected the high speed pullies and am happy that I did. The VFD let's me run a very low speeds (under 80 RPM) to pretty high speed (over 3100 RPM) with only changing the frequency and gears on the front of the lathe.  If I ever needed more power at the low end it would be easy to change the belt, but so far I have been able to cut stainless at slow speeds with not problem at all.


----------



## j-becker

Rodneyk said:


> Move the lathe from the palette to the stand.
> Getting the lathe off the palette was a process for me since I was using engine hoist.
> Basically I had cut some of the palette to get the hoist under the machine (that worked well),
> Lift the machine to remove the palette.
> Lower the machine on to some block so I could reposition the hoist (since the machine was in a position that I could not get the hoist in from the correct side to begin with.
> Note the Milling machine required additional step since it is on a double palette and the hoist could not be positioned close to the machine with the pallet there.



I ran into the same issue with the palette and my engine hoist.  I decided to rent a tow-behind hoist for $60 which made lifting and moving the lathe something I oculd have easily managed by myself.  I also cobbled together a lifting plate to keep the lathe balanced.  Probably overkill but at least it made the process pretty relaxed.


----------



## wachuko

Man, loved how that bench came out... sweet build.


----------



## Jake P

j-becker said:


> I ran into the same issue with the palette and my engine hoist.  I decided to rent a tow-behind hoist for $60 which made lifting and moving the lathe something I oculd have easily managed by myself.  I also cobbled together a lifting plate to keep the lathe balanced.  Probably overkill but at least it made the process pretty relaxed.


That's quite the stack of stickered wood there!  What's the plan for that?  Just curious


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> 1340GT still on rail but not to PM yet. John said maybe end of next week, as rail can take 2+ weeks.
> 
> 833TV still on a ship moored outside of Vancouver. Its been there for a few days now, I assume waiting for unload/reload in Vancouver before traveling to Seattle. Estimate here to PM is mid October.


I wonder if PM has a way to track rail shipments?  Sounds like John was making a WAG?


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> That's quite the stack of stickered wood there!  What's the plan for that?  Just curious


Reminds me of all the lumber milling I need to get done once the copperheads hibernate for the winter.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> I wonder if PM has a way to track rail shipments?  Sounds like John was making a WAG?


WAG indeed.


----------



## j-becker

Jake P said:


> That's quite the stack of stickered wood there!  What's the plan for that?  Just curious


It‘s for a Roubo workbench.  I thought i would have the time during the pandemic but so far it hasn‘t quite worked out.  But at least I bought the lumber when it was still cheap…


----------



## Christianstark

So I got some items in for my VFD install once my lathe is delivered. The e-stop is a replacement for the factory one, includes a 24V light. The Jog will replace the existing Jog button for For/Rev functionality, and I am deciding where the braking switch will go. Was originally thinking it would replace the coolant on button, but then I was thinking of replacing the Power light, seeing as the e-stop has a LED light built in. Does anyone know if the e-stop LED is always on? I did a continuity check on it but got nothing when the stop is in either position...

Thoughts?


----------



## B2

Does the E-stop switch have separate terminals for the light? If not then the lamp is in series with the estop switch.  The photo is not clear, but it appears to only have two screw terminals.   If not the voltage drop across the light and switch maybe a problem.  Most low voltage switches with LEDs have a series resistor to limit the current through the LED.  It all depends on how you wire it up and if it is a NO or NC estop.  Usually you want a NC switch so that if a wire breaks then the machine stops.  I cannot recall the wiring in Mark's conversion and it appears you are following his design.  However, if he puts the Estop switch in series with the latching relay coil, then the voltage drop across a lamp or LED may tend to limit the current to the latching relay coil and it might not stay latched up even when the Estop is not activated.    If you look at my conversion, you will see that I have the E-stop in series with my transistor latch circuit.  In this case I have other things in series as well, but I calculate in my write up how much resistance you can tolerate.   Do you know if it is an LED or incandescent lamp?  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/att...2-vfddescript-links-dnl-l910_1440-pdf.378082/

You said: "Does anyone know if the e-stop LED is always on? I did a continuity check on it but got nothing when the stop is in either position..."  What is the meaning of the "nothing"?  Did you use and resistance measurement?  If it show open circuit in for both switch positions maybe you need to reverse the VOM leads.  If it has an LED in it and you measured the LED (diode) in a reverse bias direction, then diode should not conduct and you will think it is an open circuit.    By the way, old fashioned VOMs (metered not digital display) were better for this sort of measurement as they would measure the actual large resistance value ( at low VOM battery voltages) rather than just saying is open.   Maybe you should post the link to where you purchased the estop switch.  Also, is there a + and - indicator on the estop inputs?  Was the estop spec. for a certain voltage?  If so maybe just apply a voltage to it and see if it lights up.  If it is spec is at 24 volts then you can use a 9v batter to test it.  An LED will just not light up as bright because the series resistor is sized for 24volt.  

By the way, sometimes you can take these switches apart and either remove the LED or change the LED resistor to something that will make the system work.   On the other hand, some of these lighted switches or LED lights are potted and will not come apart.   In my conversion I took the indicator lamp, shown as green next to the Estop, in my figure 3 apart and removed the resistor all together.  The other circuits limit the current that can flow through the LED.  

Good luck.


----------



## Christianstark

B2 said:


> Does the E-stop switch have separate terminals for the light?



Yes. The 2 stacked Red switch blocks are NC. Not very apparent in the photo is a black switch block, that is for 24V power to the LED. Im not completely up to snuff on electronics, but I was thinking that maybe simple continuity was not testable across an LED. The Diode you mentioned is also an interesting thought. I am no wiz at using a voltmeter. Does anyone have a method of testing a circuit that only has an LED in series on it? I don't have a 24V power supply to test it with. Would love to see if the light remains on regardless of E-stop plunger position.


----------



## B2

Continuity across an LED.  What kind of tester are you using if not a VOM?  Even with a VOM it is sometime hard to see continuity across and diode.  It just depends on the diode and on the meter.  The general idea of a VOM to measure resistance or continuity is for the meter to apply a small current and measure the voltage across the terminals, OR to apply a small voltage and then measure the current that flows.  In one direction (reverse mode) a diode conducts very little.  In the other direction, forward bias, it conducts very little if the voltage is low.  Once it gets to a higher voltage (0.5 volts for a Si diode  or maybe 2 volts for an LED) then the conduction is higher and can be measured.  What is being applied depends upon how the meter is designed.  

First, the continuity test.  The E-stop side should be a short when the button is not activated, NC.  So if you push in the button then it should go to open circuit.   Continuity or resistance test should work.  You say continuity as oppose to resistance measurement so I am not for sure what kind of meter you might be using.  

Second test.  You say that there are two more terminals that you think are for the LED.  If there is a + and - on them then great but if not don't worry. Try a 9 volt or 6 volt battery across the terminals that you think are the LED's.    You are planning on hooking it up to 24 volt later so try a 9 volt now.  If you have any resistors around put a 1000 Ohm, or so, in series with it. Throw the switch to test.     It should light up with the switch in some position or all of the time, but it will be dimmer than with the 24 volt supply.   If it does not light up reverse the polarity of the battery terminals and test again..  

If you can give us some specs or a URL as to where you got it.  Does it even say it is for 24 volt (AC or DC)?  

Dave


----------



## B2

PS.  My guess is that since the black terminals are short that they are not switched as there is limited room for moving parts.


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## mksj

Led will not show continuity with an ohm meter because it uses two reverse diodes (the lamps work off of AC or DC), it will stay on as long as it has power. If you tap off the 24VAC from after the switch block for the return 24VAC to power the system, it will turn off when the E-Stop is engaged. That is how it is shown wired in the basic VFD build. I have used that E-Stop in a few builds they work just fine. On the brake switch I use a small micro toggle switch, if you need one PM me your address and I can drop one in the mail.


----------



## B2

@mksj

I do not understand what you are trying to say:  "not show continuity with an ohm meter because it uses two reverse diodes" ... If the diodes are back to back (reverse) and in series, then they can never conduct. If they never conduct there is no current through the LED.  Without current the LED does not light up.  The light is a function of the forward current through the LED.  If you really mean to say the two diodes are wired in parallel, but in opposite directions then one will conduct on each 1/2 AC cycle.  i.e.  there is current for each 1/2 cycle.  

We do not know what is being used to measure continuity. @Christianstark has not said. Many modern electronic multi-meters do not show conduction for some diodes in either direction. This is because they use such small currents/voltages for the test. I have a half dozen modern multi-meters and they all do the same thing. However, I also have an old fashioned multi-meter that I have had for ~50years. It will show the difference because it simply applies 1.5 volts in series with a resistor across the device and then the voltage is measured across the resistor to determine the current flowing in the device. In the case of an LED, where or not the old meter will measure the conduction of an LED depends very much on the LED forward voltage required. Some times they are 2, 2.5, 3 volts to light up (conduct much).

Sometimes older is better!

Dave


----------



## Christianstark

UPDATE - So my voltmeter has the capability to run a diode test in continuity mode. I tested again and indeed show a value on the LED block.

@B2 thanks for your question. It prompted me to do more digging. Just a side point, the black switch block is the same size as the red ones, which are switched. They are just 2 reds stacked on each other. I have confirmed that the blacks are indeed un-switched.

@mksj I was thinking I would run the E-Stop LED light whenever power is on to the machine, regardless of E-Stop position. This way, without drilling any new holes on my controls plate, lose the "Power" light that is original to the machine, and put my braking toggle there.. I already have one, but I do appreciate your offer to send one. This way I can use the existing hole, and leave the coolant switch in place, for if I decide to add flood coolant to my machine later.

General Question - Does Mist Coolant work well with a lathe, or is it really more aimed for milling and chip evacuation on a horizontal surface aided by compressed air?


----------



## mksj

As I said, ohm meter will not work for continuity of these LED lamps, diode check may or may not work depending on the meter/LED bulb. Since I have installed a number of units with your E-Stop and other brands, the LED's are not switched unless you wire them in to do so. If you want the power light to stay on independent of the E-Stop just wire it to the other side of the 24VAC switch block (or the current wires going to the power light). The reason for freeing up the power light hole is because many people put the speed pot into that hole. On coolant, very few people use flood coolant on the lathe, unless turning exotic materials. Many people use a mist on mills and also to some degree lathes, the systems I build, are usually setup to use an air solenoid system. I use a water emulsion coolant, and find it works well for materials like aluminum. Most lathes use a separate coolant contactor to switch the 120/240VAC to a coolant pump, but on the 1340GT the high voltage (240VAC) goes directly to the front switch and then too the coolant pump, so limited safety and no overload relay. This is because of the limited lathe enclosure space.


----------



## B2

I agree, it is wise to have a power indicator.  Without it one may tend to walk off and leave the equipment turned on.... this is both unsafe and probably decreases the lift time of the equipment.  Also, I read that the capacitors in the VFD have a limited life time.  So just leaving the VFD on for long unused periods of time cannot be good.    In my conversion, I used the digital panel meters for the power indicator purpose.  However, I wanted to also know if my control latch was on or off so I put in the little gree LED indicator for that purpose.  Of course I put in so many additions that I just started over and replaced the front panel.  On the PM1440GT there is a good break point where to cut off panel for replacement.... so that you do not loose all of the PM labeling.  

I have yet to try the mist coolant. So I am afraid I am not much help to you here.   I have flooding on my mill and it is available on the lathe, but I have yet to use it on the lathe.  Flooding is messy.  I seem to get chips everywhere even without any coolant, and I just assume that the air flow from misting would make it worst.  It is probably more important to make sure you have ventilation so as not to inhale the burnt/decomposed coolant vapors.  On one of my longer milling jobs where I took off a lot of steel I used flooding and the vapors were bad.  I was using a high performance coolant and I think these are designed to vaporize so as to remove as much heat as possible via the phase change from liquid to gas.  I can only imagine that it would be worst if I was also using pressurized air to blow away the chips and to push the vapors everywhere.  A vent fan helps but not a lot if the vapors have already been distributed about the whole room volume.    Water based coolants are probably safer.  But I never hear anyone talking about the issues around rust.   I have settled in on a oil based coolant that is suppose to be safe for kitchen ware.  Maybe it is not so bad to inhale a little.    I also know that people who make wooden kitchen utensils (spoons etc) worry about what is in the oils that they put on the wood.  

While I have a couple of compressors, they make a lot of noise while running.  Just another reason I have not tried misting.  

Dave


----------



## Christianstark

mksj said:


> As I said, ohm meter will not work for continuity of these LED lamps, diode check may or may not work depending on the meter/LED bulb. Since I have installed a number of units with your E-Stop and other brands, the LED's are not switched unless you wire them in to do so. If you want the power light to stay on independent of the E-Stop just wire it to the other side of the 24VAC switch block (or the current wires going to the power light). The reason for freeing up the power light hole is because many people put the speed pot into that hole. On coolant, very few people use flood coolant on the lathe, unless turning exotic materials. Many people use a mist on mills and also to some degree lathes, the systems I build, are usually setup to use an air solenoid system. I use a water emulsion coolant, and find it works well for materials like aluminum. Most lathes use a separate coolant contactor to switch the 120/240VAC to a coolant pump, but on the 1340GT the high voltage (240VAC) goes directly to the front switch and then too the coolant pump, so limited safety and no overload relay. This is because of the limited lathe enclosure space.


So the LED light can be run on the existing 24VAC? That’s good. I was thinking I was going to need to run it odd the P24 which I assume is 24VDC.


----------



## Christianstark

UPDATE - Spoke with PM. Lathe is apparently in rail yard in Cleveland, and awaiting delivery by truck to PM. They have a ETA date for this Friday the 24th but have not yet received a call from freight for the container delivery, which usually comes a day or 2 before delivery. Best case scenario, they receive the container early Friday, and are able to unload and begin doing QA before the weekend, but we shall see.

833 is now stateside, and should be a few weeks behind.


----------



## Jake P

Thanks for the update Christian!


----------



## Christianstark

In-between shopping for stuff, wiring and finishing my workshop area, etc. I have been wondering about something.

Is there a general rule of thumb as to how tight I am supposed to make things while machining. I can be pretty heavy handed when dealing with bolts, etc. and I don't want to damage anything.

Milling machine vise?
Lathe Chuck?

Im sure the above is something I could get mildly aggressive with depending what I am clamping, but what about locking out x, y, or z axis on mill? Lathe tooling in the tool holder? Tool holder to QCTP? QCTP to cross slide/compound? R-8 collets in the mill? etc.

In all my reading and learning I have not come across anything that would guide me here. I don't want to break anything, by having a part fly, OR by stripping something out...Are there general torque specs till I get the "feel"

Thoughts?


----------



## Just for fun

I've been wondering the same thing.  I found this the other day but I'm not sure if it applies to T-nuts on a milling table.





As far locking the x, y, and z axis I wouldn't think it would take a lot of force.  But I'm only guessing.

Tim


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> UPDATE - Spoke with PM. Lathe is apparently in rail yard in Cleveland, and awaiting delivery by truck to PM. They have a ETA date for this Friday the 24th…………………………………….


Maybe, just maybe


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Maybe, just maybe


Give them a call and see...I told them I wouldn't call till Monday, lol. TAG TEAM!


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Give them a call and see...I told them I wouldn't call till Monday, lol. TAG TEAM!


I talked with John a few hours ago and he informed me that they don't know for sure where the container is and they are hoping to receive it by next week.  So it's looking like late October by the time it gets to me in Idaho.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> I talked with John a few hours ago and he informed me that they don't know for sure where the container is and they are hoping to receive it by next week.  So it's looking like late October by the time it gets to me in Idaho.


I was told it was in Cleveland at the beginning of this week. They don’t know where it is?!?!


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> I was told it was in Cleveland at the beginning of this week. They don’t know where it is?!?!


I asked if they can track rail and he said no.  He seemed to not know just where the container is.  Are we getting different stories?  Is either of us misunderstanding?  

Somethings up for sure, but I guess at this point whatever it is makes little difference to the outcome.  We wait.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> I asked if they can track rail and he said no.  He seemed to not know just where the container is.  Are we getting different stories?  Is either of us misunderstanding?
> 
> Somethings up for sure, but I guess at this point whatever it is makes little difference to the outcome.  We wait.


So I called again today. It seems the person telling me the train delivered to Cleveland does not understand how to read rail shipping info.

1340GT is on the train now. It took 2.5 weeks to get on a train in Seattle, and finally left Seattle on Friday. It is en route to Cleveland now, but they are unsure how long that trip takes, as they are not used to receiving shipments via the West coast.

The 833TV is still in Seattle, and has not made it on to a train yet.

we wait.


----------



## Aukai

You guys are botherations, be patient you'll get it. 

I wonder if I can bribe my boat Capt. to drive faster this is taking way too long to get my new mill......


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> So I called again today. It seems the person telling me the train delivered to Cleveland does not understand how to read rail shipping info.
> 
> 1340GT is on the train now. It took 2.5 weeks to get on a train in Seattle, and finally left Seattle on Friday. It is en route to Cleveland now, but they are unsure how long that trip takes, as they are not used to receiving shipments via the West coast.
> 
> The 833TV is still in Seattle, and has not made it on to a train yet.
> 
> we wait.


I forgot why I wanted this


----------



## Aukai

My boat, the Marjorie C is doing 18.9kt will get to HNL in 4 days 9hrs, then the container needs another ride to Kauai.


----------



## Jake P

Today is a month since the 1340 container landed stateside, and still crickets chirping.


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Today is a month since the 1340 container landed stateside, and still crickets chirping.


I have a positive feeling about this week. Good things to come.


----------



## Janderso

Jake P said:


> Today is a month since the 1340 container landed stateside, and still crickets chirping.


Don't you just wonder, where the hell is it?
Good things come to those who wait, and wait......


----------



## Jake P

Janderso said:


> Don't you just wonder, where the hell is it?
> Good things come to those who wait, and wait......


It's rather odd about the lack of information on this.  

I ordered a granite surface plate from MSC, just a 12x18.  They shipped it with a trucking company that loaded the trailer on rail.  

It was tracked all the way and I could see when it left and when it arrived.  Still waiting for it to get transferred to a delivery truck for my area, but they update the page every couple of days.  

I don't understand why we are in the dark on these machines?


----------



## RetiredRich

Jake P said:


> It's rather odd about the lack of information on this.
> 
> I ordered a granite surface plate from MSC, just a 12x18.  They shipped it with a trucking company that loaded the trailer on rail.
> 
> It was tracked all the way and I could see when it left and when it arrived.  Still waiting for it to get transferred to a delivery truck for my area, but they update the page every couple of days.
> 
> I don't understand why we are in the dark on these machines?



I was wondering about that myself. I see you put in your order in April.

I checked a couple of weeks ago to make sure I had put an order in and yep I put in an order for a 728 on June 3rd.  I though that my order might of somehow fallen through the cracks and the had forgotten about me.  So I called sales at PM to make sure I was still in the queue. The best that I got was that they were expecting a shipment in 2 weeks.  Maybe I should of been more insistent but I got the impression I was annoying the person at the other end of the phone.

You would think that they would know how many 728s are in the container and how many they have sold.  From that they should be able to figure out my position in the queue and tell me fairly accurately when I can expect a delivery.  Maybe I'm over simplifying.

Thanks for giving us an update and reading my post.  I feel better now knowing that I'm not alone waiting.


----------



## B2

I have to be some what sympathetic to PM these days.  Items are shipped to them from China or other far lands and they cannot really track it well either. When I got my PM940 it was already on a ship and I could track the ship, but not the item and this was pre-pandemic.   

I have ordered a lot of small parts from Aliexpress and for the most part have had very good luck with getting things that work .... and on time. Shipping is commonly free.   However, they have a tracking systems and it commonly appears that the parts get stuck at some airport for weeks.  Usually when the part is getting close to me, ie. at FEDEX, UPS, or USPS then the tracking projections are more accurate.  However, I just got a part that was taking way too long.  I looked up the tracking and it was yet to leave China airport and was projected to arrive in about a month.  Two days later it was on my door step.   These parts I get are small and are shipped by air so I think they are grouped with a lot of other small parts coming to the states and then arrive in an airplane container. Once, here they get resorted and shipped again via US carriers.  Hence, a large fraction of the time is just waiting to be grouped or sorted.  On the other hand I also ordered a different small part via Aliexpress and it arrived in 1/2 of the time.  I liked it and order another and it arrived 2 days after the slow part.  So I view Aliexpress like an Amazon or ebay.  The sellers are probably in different locations about China and so some shipping take longer than others.   Anyway, typical is more like 4-8 weeks these days, similar to pre-pandemic days, and that is by air!

We know that the PM machines are coming by ship so that takes a lot longer, but are also probably grouped into large containers.  Today, the ships are not getting unloaded at our ports on time so that adds to the uncertainty.  

However, I agree with you that once PM receives the goods and reships them you would think they would have a decent tracking system.  But my experience with common carriers is that they do not have regular delivery as there are no fix routes and they may zig zag all over the country on the way to your location.  They may even reload on to a second truck.  Sometimes they (the driver) will give you a call just before they arrive!


----------



## Christianstark

B2 said:


> I have to be some what sympathetic to PM these days.  Items are shipped to them from China or other far lands and they cannot really track it well either. When I got my PM940 it was already on a ship and I could track the ship, but not the item and this was pre-pandemic.
> 
> I have ordered a lot of small parts from Aliexpress and for the most part have had very good luck with getting things that work .... and on time. Shipping is commonly free.   However, they have a tracking systems and it commonly appears that the parts get stuck at some airport for weeks.  Usually when the part is getting close to me, ie. at FEDEX, UPS, or USPS then the tracking projections are more accurate.  However, I just got a part that was taking way too long.  I looked up the tracking and it was yet to leave China airport and was projected to arrive in about a month.  Two days later it was on my door step.   These parts I get are small and are shipped by air so I think they are grouped with a lot of other small parts coming to the states and then arrive in an airplane container. Once, here they get resorted and shipped again via US carriers.  Hence, a large fraction of the time is just waiting to be grouped or sorted.  On the other hand I also ordered a different small part via Aliexpress and it arrived in 1/2 of the time.  I liked it and order another and it arrived 2 days after the slow part.  So I view Aliexpress like an Amazon or ebay.  The sellers are probably in different locations about China and so some shipping take longer than others.   Anyway, typical is more like 4-8 weeks these days, similar to pre-pandemic days, and that is by air!
> 
> We know that the PM machines are coming by ship so that takes a lot longer, but are also probably grouped into large containers.  Today, the ships are not getting unloaded at our ports on time so that adds to the uncertainty.
> 
> However, I agree with you that once PM receives the goods and reships them you would think they would have a decent tracking system.  But my experience with common carriers is that they do not have regular delivery as there are no fix routes and they may zig zag all over the country on the way to your location.  They may even reload on to a second truck.  Sometimes they (the driver) will give you a call just before they arrive!


I get what you are saying...however the lathes got to Seattle on September 4th. The massive post production bottleneck seems to be stateside.


----------



## Christianstark

Update from PM after my weekly call.

1340GT is in Cleveland, and still needs to be trucked to PM. No ETA, as they usually only get a 24 hour heads up on that. They are hoping next week for those.

833TV is still in the rail yard in Seattle.

Side note, they have also had a different shipment that has been sitting in Seattle for 8 weeks waiting to get on a train. No idea how the 1340 container left Seattle first, but the logistics issues do not end after being offloaded in the USA. the ships have been stacking up on our coast waiting to offload, so I am guessing much of the shipping woes are not just victims of global shipping issues, but possibly bottlenecks in our own shipping infrastructure are part of the cause?


----------



## B2

Seattle.... port?  Yes, there was an article on the news yesterday about how we do not have the dock workers to even unload the containers.   That is why there are all those ships sitting off shore..... and that cost money to just sit there too.   One trucker said that normally they would load him up and have it out on the road in a couple of hours, but he had just waited (in line) for most of 24 hours to get his load.  They also say that there are not enough truck drivers.  Who knows.  Once you shut down a big machine (the USA) I guess it takes time to get it started back up and rolling.   

I live in Pittsburgh, where PM is located, so my experience with them is unique.  I have been to their facility several times and they have a very nice looking operation.   They deliver directly to me for the shipping fee.   They just call me up or sent an email saying it is time.   

However, I do not know if they even take your machine out of the crate and inspect it when it arrives, but I do not think so.    They may have taken the lid off of my 940 crate, but I could not see it and it had not been removed or unbolted from the pallet or anything like that.  I am sure they look if the crate is damage or appears to have had a problem.  Matt showed me some machines that had tip over in transit and he had certainly taken them out and studied the problems and decided what was to be done.   They certainly did not clean my machines as it still has the anti-rust wax/oil all over it.  On the other hand, if you have a problem after it gets there my experience is that PM is very responsive.  

Anyway, you have my sympathies.  When one buys a new toy he wants it ASAP!


----------



## B2

If I am not mistaken your Mill and Lathe are both made in Taiwan.  While not as large, you mill will probably be a lot better machine than my China made PM940M-CNC.  Nevertheless, I have managed to get some nice projects from it and I have learned a lot.  I have the PM1440GT lathe also from Taiwan and I think you are going to like yours!


----------



## Christianstark

Hello,

We are happy to say that the PM1340GT Lathe that you have been waiting on has arrived at our warehouse.  We are beginning our inspections on these machines, running them and looking them over to make sure they are up to our standards. Once inspections are completed, we will begin filling our back orders and sending machines out.


Hallelujah!


----------



## Aukai

Fan damn tastic


----------



## Just for fun

Good News !!


----------



## Christianstark

Hoping to get my “your lathe has shipped to you” and my “We have received your 833tv” emails next week. The only accessory missing from my lathe is the 4 jaw, and they said that they will put that in with my mill.


----------



## Genghis6400

Christianstark said:


> Hoping to get my “your lathe has shipped to you” and my “We have received your 833tv” emails next week. The only accessory missing from my lathe is the 4 jaw, and they said that they will put that in with my mill.


Congrats on the good news!!!


----------



## Christianstark

"Hi there. Your recent order on Precision Matthews Machinery Co. has been completed. Your order details are shown below for your reference. Please read this whole email before contacting us, as we've addressed some of the most common issues." Got my tracking information! Should be trackable in 24-48 hours.

Sweet!


----------



## Cletus

I see a BIG brown crate in your future!


----------



## Christianstark

Now if my phone would just ring to schedule the delivery!


----------



## Jake P

Picked up lathe yesterday!  I'll post a separate thread with what's happening with me and mine


----------



## Christianstark

Jake P said:


> Picked up lathe yesterday!  I'll post a separate thread with what's happening with me and mine


Care to give an initial impression?


----------



## Cletus

He's too busy hugging and fussing over it!


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Care to give an initial impression?











						My 1340GT Story
					

My 1340GT Story........  I placed my original lathe order for a 1228VF-LB back in early Feb. and by late March I had changed that order to a 1340GT.  Originally the expected date for the 1340GT was early to mid July, which changed as that date approached to late Aug/early Sept. I fully...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> Care to give an initial impression?


Just an FYI on un-crating your 1340.  You can leave the slats on the top of the box in place if you like.  Just pull the bolts off the box around the bottom perimeter and lift the box up and off the pallet.


----------



## Christianstark

I called Estes today, and they gave me the number for their "Last Mile" division, so I called them, and the automated response pointed me to a different tracking webpage. It appears that my delivery appointment is between 12-4PM today, although no one called me to set that up. Luckily, I have been work from home for 19 months now, so let's see if my 1340 shows up today!


----------



## Christianstark

By 3 no delivery so I called. Customer service said 4. Waited till 5 and called back. They called the driver who said he or she was a bit behind, and would be here within the hour.

nobody ever came. At midnight the website updated to this…


----------



## Aukai

GRRRRR....


----------



## Just for fun

Well that sux!


----------



## Jake P

That is SOOOO wrong


----------



## davidpbest

This kind of thing has happened to be a few times.  In addition to the inconvenience, the bigger issue is that the crate goes back to the terminal where it's offloaded, shuffled around in the warehouse, then re-loaded for delivery the next business day.  Any time a crated machine is off- and on-loaded at a terminal, there is potential for it to be dropped or otherwise compromised.  I recommend you take your time inspecting the delivery before signing off on it.   Here is an example of a $40K panel saw at my local freight terminal a few years back.  Granted it was poorly crated, but there have been a couple examples this year here on H-M of well crated equipment that were clearly dropped from a significant enough height to fracture cast iron components.  I hope you don't have any issues like this.


----------



## Christianstark

So now the tracking page has abandoned all references to a window of delivery possibilities. They better have not broken my damn machine…


----------



## Aukai

It still says number of pieces 1, so you still should be good.


----------



## Christianstark

Aukai said:


> It still says number of pieces 1, so you still should be good.


I really needed that smile!


----------



## Tipton1965

I would call them and talk to a live person to set up the appointment.  That's what I had to do.  The tracking said appointment was set or something like that but nothing happened until I called and set up a time.  I'm sure it differs from place to place.


----------



## Christianstark

Tipton1965 said:


> I would call them and talk to a live person to set up the appointment.  That's what I had to do.  The tracking said appointment was set or something like that but nothing happened until I called and set up a time.  I'm sure it differs from place to place.


I spoke to someone 3 times. First on Friday morning. They said my window was good. Then at 3 and then again at 5.


----------



## Christianstark

So a few updates!

1340GT - Delivery window set for tomorrow 8AM to 4PM. Fingers Crossed.

833TV - See Below...

Hello,

We are happy to say that the machine you have been waiting on has arrived at our warehouse.  We are beginning our inspections on these machines, running them and looking them over to make sure they are up to our standards. Once inspections are completed, we will begin filling our back orders and sending machines out.


----------



## Jake P

Awesome!  You are going to be a busy guy with two machines to get up and running.


----------



## Christianstark

OK so here we go! Today was delivery day. Some initial pictures.

First, it LOOKS like someone stacked something on top, and the fork lift did a bit of damage picking it off, but it does not look like it scratched anything below. Will need to ensure all parts remain, but it looks OK so far.






Good news is the stacking does not look to have damaged the crate itself, so I lifted off the top.





Peeled back the plastic for a look inside. It is bigger than I was expecting. Basketball for scale. So far everything looks undamaged. Initial unpacking of accessories did not reveal the 2 screw on gear selector knobs for the spindle. Anyone know where they may be hiding?





Now to figure out how to get this beast down some stone steps. First section has a 90 degree curve, and the landing is another 90 degree hard corner. Need to navigate that, and I should be home free getting it inside.


----------



## wachuko

Congratulations!!!  Wohooo!!!


----------



## xr650rRider

> Anyone know where they may be hiding?



Look in the red toolbox.  Early project you can replace all those plastic knobs with nice stainless ones that you make.


----------



## Janderso

Nice!
I like the fact they offer a free basketball too


----------



## Tipton1965

Enjoy!!


----------



## Just for fun

Congratulations man!   It looks beautiful.


----------



## davidpbest

Good news here.   Long wait - sure to be worth it.


----------



## Cletus

Beautiful!   ......Enjoy!


----------



## Christianstark

OK so I have a question for all that have wrangled a 1340 down some steps, etc.

I got rid of some bulk and weight via tali stock, compound chip guard, obviously the chuck. Here is where I am at now.











1 - I know the motor is an easy removal, but I don't want to make this thing too top heavy.

2 - Cross slide/Apron - Is the juice worth the squeeze

3 - Removing the head. That would make this job easier, and somewhat safer. How much hassle would I REALLY be adding getting it aligned again?

Thanks All!


----------



## Tipton1965

As it sits right now the weight is totally manageable.  You'd be surprised how well you can move it around with simple tools.  When I sold my 1340 I used a come along to pull it across the floor and up on to the guys trailer.  Two guys and a strong rope and you could slide it right down the stairs on the pallet.  Use a bar for small movements and turning.


----------



## Christianstark

Tipton1965 said:


> As it sits right now the weight is totally manageable.  You'd be surprised how well you can move it around with simple tools.  When I sold my 1340 I used a come along to pull it across the floor and up on to the guys trailer.  Two guys and a strong rope and you could slide it right down the stairs on the pallet.  Use a bar for small movements and turning.


The stairs are a tad tricky. First half is curved, so the inside stairs are steeper than the outside. Then a landing that is smaller square than the lathe is long for a hard 90 degree turn. All this is on uneven stone steps. Loads of friction, no rope will be needed to slow it down.


----------



## mksj

I would pull the motor, haven't removed a headstock, but might be a worthwhile because it is very top heavy and will want to flip. The headstock often needs to be realigned on the 1340GT. Also think of what people are going to be grabbing onto when moving it.


----------



## xr650rRider

Shame you didn't have time to build a cart with off-road tires on it.


----------



## Christianstark

xr650rRider said:


> Shame you didn't have time to build a cart with off-road tires on it.


That’s how I got my saw mill to the back yard!


----------



## xr650rRider

Christianstark said:


> That’s how I got my saw mill to the back yard!



Your burning daylight.


----------



## davidpbest

You might get some ideas here:









						Moving PM1340 Lathe
					

This album of images documents what I went through to move the new PM1340 metal lathe from the garage into my basement shop.  I did this entire process working alone, so I did lots of advanced planning. Click photo for details below the image.




					www.flickr.com
				




If I had your situation with stairs at angles, I would probably use an appliance/hand cart like this:





Remove the tailstock, motor, apron/cross slide, and strap what remains (bedways & headstock which weigh about 400 pounds)  to the hand cart with the headstock facing down and resting on the sled.  Two people should be able to maneuver that load down twisty stairs one step at a time.  The headstock weighs about 180 pounds, and you’ll want a to align it no matter what after the lathe is set up on the stand, so you could remove it as well (if you don’t have a helper for the contraption mentioned above) and move the items separately.  The bedway casting is the heaviest component.

You might get additional inspirations *here*.


----------



## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> You might get some ideas here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moving PM1340 Lathe
> 
> 
> This album of images documents what I went through to move the new PM1340 metal lathe from the garage into my basement shop.  I did this entire process working alone, so I did lots of advanced planning. Click photo for details below the image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.flickr.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I had your situation with stairs at angles, I would probably use an appliance/hand cart like this:
> 
> View attachment 384280
> 
> Remove the tailstock, motor, apron/cross slide, and strap what remains (bedways & headstock which weigh about 400 pounds)  to the hand cart with the headstock facing down and resting on the sled.  Two people should be able to maneuver that load down twisty stairs one step at a time.  The headstock weighs about 180 pounds, and you’ll want a to align it no matter what after the lathe is set up on the stand, so you could remove it as well (if you don’t have a helper for the contraption mentioned above) and move the items separately.  The bedway casting is the heaviest component.
> 
> You might get additional inspirations *here*.


David,

When you removed our headstock, how did you grip it?

Would a rope through the spindle work, or would that put a dangerous side load on it?

Also, for the apron and cross slide removal, do you know of any threads that provide the how to? It looks to be pretty complex, especially the apron, as it requires removal of the control bar, power feed bar, and lead screw.

Thanks!


----------



## davidpbest

I never removed the headstock.  *This* is as stripped down as I went, although taking off the Norton gearbox is a cinch.   

In your situation, if you remove the headstock, bolt it down to a platform you can get a grip on without going through the spindle.  Something like a mini wooden stretcher made from the pallet/shipping materials could be carried down steps by two people.


----------



## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> I never removed the headstock.  *This* is as stripped down as I went, although taking off the Norton gearbox is a cinch.
> 
> In your situation, if you remove the headstock, bolt it down to a platform you can get a grip on without going through the spindle.  Something like a mini wooden stretcher made from the pallet/shipping materials could be carried down steps by two people.


Im just trying to figure out how to do the initial lift off of the machine.


----------



## davidpbest

If you plan to take my suggestion of using an appliance/hand cart, you could leave the headstock and bedways bolted to the pallet, strip everything else off the machine.  Then cut down the pallet with a Saws-All, cover what’s left bolted to the pallet with a moving blanket, tilt it up on end (from the tailstock end), walk it onto the cart and strap it down onto the hand cart.


----------



## davidpbest

You might be better off calling in a piano moving crew. Moving a grand piano down stairs is something the do every day, and a 1340 lathe is essentially the same package weight and less tall so more maneuverable.


----------



## Tipton1965

davidpbest said:


> You might be better off calling in a piano moving crew. Moving a grand piano down stairs is something the do every day, and a 1340 lathe is essentially the same package weight and less tall so more maneuverable.


That's not a bad idea.  We had a piano mover move in my wifes baby grand and it was very entertaining watching how they took something that big and safely moved it into our house and set it up.  One of the movers even sat down at the piano afterward and started playing it.  He was actually pretty good.


----------



## Christianstark

Update - I have been pulling pieces off and bringing them down to the basement. All that remains is the bed, head, and gear box.

The head has been drained and is loose, but I could not wheel it down before it got dark. I pulled off the electrical panel. I disconnected the forward and reverse wire from the box, and pulled all the other electronics from the lathe control panel, and motor.

2 bolts and the Norton will be off.

Then I will deal with the bed.

edit - I totally forgot one issue I had. I think I was trying to tap the shear pin out, and I think I tapped it in and it seized. I had to drill it out prior to removing the lead screw. I’ll have to machine a new one with the smallest taper when I get the machine back together prior to using any threading operations.


----------



## Tipton1965

Christianstark said:


> Update - I have been pulling pieces off and bringing them down to the basement. All that remains is the bed, head, and gear box.
> 
> The head has been drained and is loose, but I could not wheel it down before it got dark. I pulled off the electrical panel. I disconnected the forward and reverse wire from the box, and pulled all the other electronics from the lathe control panel, and motor.
> 
> 2 bolts and the Norton will be off.
> 
> Then I will deal with the bed.
> 
> edit - I totally forgot one issue I had. I think I was trying to tap the shear pin out, and I think I tapped it in and it seized. I had to drill it out prior to removing the lead screw. I’ll have to machine a new one with the smallest taper when I get the machine back together prior to using any threading operations.


Now that you have it all disassembled, you could always strip and paint the machine like David Best did with his.  You already did half the work.


----------



## Christianstark

Tipton1965 said:


> Now that you have it all disassembled, you could always strip and paint the machine like David Best did with his.  You already did half the work.


HA! David has the best looking PM1340GT I have seen, but Im taking this as an opportunity to clean everything, and re lubricate. Some of the gearing has what I think is too much grease., and the cosmoline is everywhere.

Painting is a chore...but I would consider it IF I had a good space for it. I do not. ;-p


----------



## Christianstark

Here is a look at clean vs. Dirty.







The lead screw is a bugger to clean...but part cleaner and a brass brush os getting it done.


----------



## Tipton1965

I've taken cosmoline off four machines now.  It's not all that fun but the machine sure looks good afterward.  That lead screw looks excellent!


----------



## Christianstark

Its funny. At first I was terrified about taking the machine apart, but David Best sent me some easy general instructions. 

I am enjoying each part reveal itself, but I wouldn't want to do this 4 times. I should have my mill within 2 weeks, so I know I will have to do this once more, but a mill should be easier.


----------



## wachuko

You are killing me with the photos... and forget about looking at Dave's thread when he took his apart and painted it....

Coming out great!!


----------



## Tipton1965

Christianstark said:


> Its funny. At first I was terrified about taking the machine apart, but David Best sent me some easy general instructions.


When I got my ACRA lathe, I gutted the entire control box to get it wired for a VFD.  I wasn't too worried because Mark Jacobs had my back.  But it was a little weird taking out perfectly good working parts,


----------



## Christianstark

The Norton gearbox was greased up, so I took it off and cleaned with a variety of brushes and wd40. Got it pretty good. Wish I had a parts washer, but doing this all by hand is giving me an opportunity to introduce myself to the lathe.

not a massive fan of paint overspray on the gears and drive shafts, but I guess it won’t hurt anything. Got the stand bolted together, ready to bolt on the bed.


----------



## Tipton1965

Christianstark said:


> Wish I had a parts washer
> 
> View attachment 384506
> View attachment 384507
> View attachment 384508


How big is your dishwasher?  If you're married disregard.


----------



## Christianstark

Last 2 pieces. I sent out a bat signal for neighbor help.


----------



## Aukai

Mine was over sprayed too, kinda irritating....


----------



## Jake P

I’m reminded of the question:
Trophy, toy or tool?

As much as I like perfection I often settle for perfunction


----------



## Christianstark

Got some kind neighbors.


----------



## Aukai

Did you seal the chip pan to the bed well? Mine leaks.....


----------



## davidpbest

Looking great.  Were my weight estimates close?


----------



## davidpbest

Jake P said:


> I’m reminded of the question:
> Trophy, toy or tool?



I prefer @vtcnc term “shelf queen” to the term “trophy.”  

but .  .  .  It can be all of the above if you have enough dedication.    Be a real man - hot-dip galvanize and epoxy paint that baby!   LOL


----------



## Christianstark

Aukai said:


> Did you seal the chip pan to the bed well? Mine leaks.....


No. I decided to silicone around the bed feet. Easier to cut and disassemble down the road if we move


davidpbest said:


> Looking great.  Were my weight estimates close?


Me and 3 neighbors were able to just carry it around and into the basement. Before we did it got a WD40 wipedown, removed all the cosmoline, and then wiped down with IPA to remove residue.


----------



## Jake P

Christianstark said:


> .......and then wiped down with IPA to remove residue.


Pardon me, but that's a waste of good beer!


----------



## Christianstark

Got it here yesterday before I quit for the day.


----------



## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> Got it here yesterday before I quit for the day.


Great progress.  Reiling oil can?  Great choice!!!


----------



## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Great progress.  Reiling oil can?  Great choice!!!


It’s defective. Oil squirts out the back side of the nozzle. They are sending me a new nozzle.


----------



## Christianstark

A few more pics.

got the forward-off-reverse bar, powerfeed bar, and the lead screw reinstalled. Did a little file work in the key ways, and modified the clutch a tad. The original grub screw galled up the key way making removal difficult, so a drill and file helped me solve for that.


----------



## Christianstark

Noticed an issue with the compound gib. It seems when I attempt to adjust the gib with the screw closest to the tool post, the clockwise motion of the adjusting screw lifts the gib inside the slot, and causes binding. The lift is over a mm of travel. The vertical movement of the gib is all throughout the length of the cross slide. 

Should the gib be pulled upward, away from the way, or should it be pushed down towards the way? Their only seems to be one scraped surface which holds the compound down to the ways on the dovetail, but the gib itself moves quite a bit up and down if both adjusting screws are loose.

An additional annoyance is when I adjust the gib so I have no or little side to side movement, the adjusting screw at the hand wheel is backed out as far as it will go, so as wear begins to happen, I will need to trim the gib at the narrow end so the adjusting screws can still work properly.

Not sure if this makes any sense, or if this will help but...

Here is the gib adjuster at the back side of the compound...It sticks out quite a bit.




And here is the other, almost touching the hand wheel assembly, I.E. no room to tighten beyond here...


----------



## Janderso

Jake P said:


> Pardon me, but that's a waste of good beer!


You used the phrase "good beer" referencing IPA.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
I prefer the golden fruits of Adolph Coors.
 I know, my opinion is worth nothing


----------



## Christianstark

Further information has uncovered that I have a significant taper at the thin end of my gib.

First showing me applying pressure to the fat end.






Next shows me applying pressure to the thin end of the gib.





This is causing the gib adjusting screw to have issues getting a purchase on the thin end of the gib.

I have contacted PM for assistance.


----------



## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> This is causing the gib adjusting screw to have issues getting a purchase on the thin end of the gib.
> 
> I have contacted PM for assistance.


I found the same, but decided to make my own scraped gib with precise fit.


----------



## B2

Hi David,

I have gib problems with my PM940M-CNC and may have to make all of mine over.  The Z-axis gib is too small and too short.  In the mill case these gibs are trapezoids and taper in both width and thickness.  Its thickness along the ~12.5" length varies from about 0.4" to about 0.3" but I figure is about .005+- too thin.    I measured it pretty well and the thickness taper/slope is right at 0.0087 +- inch/inch slope.   The width is currently incorrect, especially at the small end, and the locking screw head does not reach the gib at all, but slides up along side of it to pinch the gib into the way binding. So effectively not acting like a gib at all, but as a saddle lock.    I have worked around this for now, but it has to go.  Nevertheless, its width is about 1" and varies about 0.1 over the length.  The diagonal of the trapezoid varies even more as it is larger.   I have thought of more than one approach to making this trapezoid on thin material, but maybe you have a better way.  Clamping is always a concern.  

Can you point me to a description of how you might have proceeded to make yours?  Thanks.

Dave L.


----------



## B2

Christianstark said:


> Next shows me applying pressure to the thin end of the gib


The way edge does not look straight?  Is this a photo deception?


----------



## davidpbest

B2 said:


> Can you point me to a description of how you might have proceeded to make yours?  Thanks.


I neglected to take photos and document the process which is a shame - I was frustrated and in a hurry.  However, I basically followed the same process Keith Rucker describes in the video link posted below.  His series goes on for 3-4 episodes, so watch the follow-up videos too.  I did use cast iron, and finding a scrap of Durabar for this was probably the most challenging aspect of the project.  I don’t have a surface grinder, so after machining the replacement gib, I did a lot of “hand honing” work on a surface plate with successive grits of sticky-backed sandpaper stuck down to the surface plate, hand rubbing the gib against the abrasive, and then grossly flaked it for oil retention.  It’s not to NASA standards, but a heck of a lot better than want came with the machine.  Hope this helps.


----------



## Christianstark

B2 said:


> The way edge does not look straight?  Is this a photo deception?


The way dovetail is indeed sloped, but that is to accommodate a wedge shaped gib.The wedge + gib makes a straight slot to ride on the ways of the compound base. The gib it tightened by adjusting 2 screws at each end of the gib. loosen the thin side and tighten the thick side to tighten, and vise versa to loosen.


----------



## B2

Christianstark said:


> The way dovetail is indeed sloped, but that is to accommodate a wedge shaped gib.The wedge + gib makes a straight slot to ride on the ways of the compound base. The gib it tightened by adjusting 2 screws at each end of the gib. loosen the thin side and tighten the thick side to tighten, and vise versa to loosen.


I did not mean sloped.  I meant straight.  It looked bowed?.... so that a properly made gib would only be hitting a one points and so rocking.


----------



## Christianstark

B2 said:


> I did not mean sloped.  I meant straight.  It looked bowed?.... so that a properly made gib would only be hitting a one points and so rocking.


I see what you mean. I think it MAY be a combination of the taper in the gib, and maybe a roll off on the way. Here is another pic that shows the gib referenced to a flat surface.


----------



## Christianstark

I did wind up cutting about 3/16" off the thin side of the gib, and it is now seating against the front gib adjust screw much better. I think the material removal reduced the taper a good bit, and the fitment is much better than it was. 

I may wind up asking for a blank, and shooting for a better fitment, as the gib supplied still has probably 2mm of travel up and down within the dovetail, but as I have it set currently I am good enough for beginning to learn to thread.

@davidpbest that video you sent is fantastic!


----------



## Janderso

davidpbest said:


> I found the same, but decided to make my own scraped gib with precise fit.


Speaking for myself, there is no way I could manage making my own tapered gib.
The sad thing is, I have all the equipment.
Maybe next year


----------



## B2

davidpbest said:


> However, I basically followed the same process Keith Rucker describes in the video link


Thanks David.  Excellent videos.  I watched several of them.  I don't have a surface grinder either....a lot of work without one if much material had to be removed.   

So I am still working on my CNC Mill.  It seems to have lots backlash of problems on all axes!  I never realized this until I actually started measuring the backlash as a function of position along the ways and found it varied a lot.  I still seem to have considerable analysis to do before trying to fix anything and it may cost me more to fix it than I payed for it!!!   Anyway, I have almost given up on the z-axis and so have just started looking at the y-axis.   If the gib is completely loose then the backlash is only about 0.0015" which is probably acceptable for now.  However, if the gib is tightened down then backlash is ok at one end of travel and terrible at the other end (many thousandths!!!).    This leads me to believe that the problems are not just the gibs but also the ways themselves.  However, I do not currently have a micrometer that will reach this distance so I have to find or build one before I can measure it.    Of course the way side separations for each axis are different (z~4.5, x~6.5, y~9.5),  so will probably build some sort of measuring device to determine parallelism.  I am uncertain as to how I will determine if the ways spacing or the flatness of each are the problem.  So I am actually going back and watching Keith Rucker's prior videos, i.e #13 etc.  Just watching them is taking a while!!!


----------



## davidpbest

B2 said:


> Thanks David.  Excellent videos.  I watched several of them.  I don't have a surface grinder either....a lot of work without one if much material had to be removed.
> 
> So I am still working on my CNC Mill.  It seems to have lots backlash of problems on all axes!  I never realized this until I actually started measuring the backlash as a function of position along the ways and found it varied a lot.  I still seem to have considerable analysis to do before trying to fix anything and it may cost me more to fix it than I payed for it!!!   Anyway, I have almost given up on the z-axis and so have just started looking at the y-axis.   If the gib is completely loose then the backlash is only about 0.0015" which is probably acceptable for now.  However, if the gib is tightened down then backlash is ok at one end of travel and terrible at the other end (many thousandths!!!).    This leads me to believe that the problems are not just the gibs but also the ways themselves.  However, I do not currently have a micrometer that will reach this distance so I have to find or build one before I can measure it.    Of course the way side separations for each axis are different (z~4.5, x~6.5, y~9.5),  so will probably build some sort of measuring device to determine parallelism.  I am uncertain as to how I will determine if the ways spacing or the flatness of each are the problem.  So I am actually going back and watching Keith Rucker's prior videos, i.e #13 etc.  Just watching them is taking a while!!!


If you like Keith’s videos on gib topics, you might find *Stefan’s videos* even more helpful. And *here is a video* that might help checking parallelism.

Curious if you’re running the original lead screws in your mill of if you’ve replaced them with ball screws.  Perhaps *these videos* could be helpful?  I did quite a bit of gib-fit alterations/tuning to the gibs on my PM-935 and it helped a lot.


----------



## B2

davidpbest said:


> Curious if you’re running the original lead screws in your mill of if you’ve replaced them with ball screws.


Thanks David,

After watching Keith Rucker's videos I am actually pretty discouraged. I do not have anywhere near the facilities, equipment, or metrology equipment to do the work he was discussing.  I am much better equipped in electronics and optics.  I am afraid my mill ways maybe worst than his lathe's before he started the restoration and yet my Mill is essentially new, but 3+ years since the purchase... and the way it came from the factory.  I  have not used it all that much.  It does work and I have made several things.... it is just not any where nearly as accurate as it was suppose to be...... and I while I realized the z-axis had lots of problems I did not realize until recently how bad Y axis is (X axis is still TBD).  I probably paid more for my PM940M-CNC-VS than you did for your PM935 (which every one praises, Taiwan vs China).  Anyway, from the factory, it was a CNC.   PM stopped selling them and has not found a different CNC to put in to its sales portfolio yet.   It is probably not the same as the PM940M machines sold today and may not have been the same as the ones they were selling then.  They look similar and probably came from the same place in China, but have to be somewhat different by definition.  The basic concepts are the same and you might think the castings are the same, but who knows ....   Anyway, it came with 5 TPI ball screws and ball screw nuts and fantastic accuracy "specs."  Not the  10TPI Acme screws as come with the non-CNC machine.  Also the ways are cut at 55 degrees not 60 as most US machines seem to be.  

Anyway, do not pay too much attention to my comments right now as I am just a little discouraged.  I am not complaining about PM as a company.  Matt has been very cooperative in the past and I have not push him on these 940 issues ... at least not yet.   After I get farther along I hopefully will have measurements of the way's parallelism that I can trust.  Then I will let you know.  I am just hopeful that I am doing something wrong and that there is an easier fix than re-cutting the ways (somewhere?) and extensive scrapping.


----------



## davidpbest

B2 said:


> Thanks David,
> 
> After watching Keith Rucker's videos I am actually pretty discouraged. I do not have anywhere near the facilities, equipment, or metrology equipment to do the work he was discussing.  I am much better equipped in electronics and optics.  I am afraid my mill ways maybe worst than his lathe's before he started the restoration and yet my Mill is essentially new, but 3+ years since the purchase... and the way it came from the factory.  I  have not used it all that much.  It does work and I have made several things.... it is just not any where nearly as accurate as it was suppose to be...... and I while I realized the z-axis had lots of problems I did not realize until recently how bad Y axis is (X axis is still TBD).  I probably paid more for my PM940M-CNC-VS than you did for your PM935 (which every one praises, Taiwan vs China).  Anyway, from the factory, it was a CNC.   PM stopped selling them and has not found a different CNC to put in to its sales portfolio yet.   It is probably not the same as the PM940M machines sold today and may not have been the same as the ones they were selling then.  They look similar and probably came from the same place in China, but have to be somewhat different by definition.  The basic concepts are the same and you might think the castings are the same, but who knows ....   Anyway, it came with 5 TPI ball screws and ball screw nuts and fantastic accuracy "specs."  Not the  10TPI Acme screws as come with the non-CNC machine.  Also the ways are cut at 55 degrees not 60 as most US machines seem to be.
> 
> Anyway, do not pay too much attention to my comments right now as I am just a little discouraged.  I am not complaining about PM as a company.  Matt has been very cooperative in the past and I have not push him on these 940 issues ... at least not yet.   After I get farther along I hopefully will have measurements of the way's parallelism that I can trust.  Then I will let you know.  I am just hopeful that I am doing something wrong and that there is an easier fix than re-cutting the ways (somewhere?) and extensive scrapping.


Let's take this off-line - I'll DM you.


----------



## B2

davidpbest said:


> Let's take this off-line - I'll DM you


Good idea.  But first is there a hard cover edition of your book on carbide inserts? Thought I would ask as I only saw paperback versions on Amazon.


----------



## davidpbest

B2 said:


> Good idea.  But first is there a hard cover edition of your book on carbide inserts? Thought I would ask as I only saw paperback versions on Amazon.


My publisher does not offer hardback editions.  Sorry.  The paper and color printing used in the paperback is excellent quality, as is the binding.  I'll DM you some sample pages.


----------



## B2

Its ok.  I am on my way to Amazon.  I have only heard good things about your book.


----------



## wachuko

@davidpbest  Wait, you have a book!!!??



			David P. Best: books, biography, latest update


----------



## davidpbest

wachuko said:


> @davidpbest  Wait, you have books!!!??
> 
> 
> 
> David P. Best: books, biography, latest update


Yes. Commentary and links are here:   http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/introduction-to-indexable-tooling-for-the-metal-lathe.91490/


----------



## ptrotter

David's book is great.  The photography is exceptional and everything is well laid out. Very well done David.


----------



## wachuko

I am confused.... Ordered one, but not sure if the recent issue of it...   

I got the March 11, 2021  but now I see one listed as October 25, 2021...

@davidpbest - what is the difference in the dates?


----------



## Aukai

First, and 2nd edition/publications? 1st editions are always the collector items.


----------



## Christianstark

I think David may have submitted a few minor corrections.


----------



## Christianstark

Page 21 - ANSI table - Nose treatment #3

should read 3/64 instead of 3/32?


----------



## wachuko

@Christianstark , apologies, I thought I was making the update in the other thread…. Did not meant to hi-jack your thread…

Back to main topic


----------



## Christianstark

No worries! I just happened to know what may have been the difference between May and October pressings of Davids book.


----------



## Cletus

WOW!   .........Cool, I will be purchasing these books soon!


----------



## Christianstark

Have 2 meters of drag chain on its way. Got the Z axis DRO scale mounted, and powered up the head to ensure it’s good. Works! Plan is to drag chain to the tail stock side, and run the read cables behind the splash guard for a clean look, and an uncluttered chip tray. Will eventually add a mist line as well.

my 833TV should be shipping next week, and I will need it to mount the X axis. Will need to make a few stand offs for the scale and read head in order to retain access to the cross slide lock. Planning on going hex head and smoothing out the end that contacts the gib. Something like @davidpbest did with his, but no where near as nice.


----------



## Christianstark

Question for folks still following along. Has anyone ever considered removing the electric box from the back of the lathe and mounting it to a wall instead? 

There are 2 issues I am running into. 

1 - The lathe final resting place is too close to the wall for the electronics door to swing open

2 - Working around the corner is very awkward.

I am really considering removing the box, and mounting it on the wall next to my VFD enclosure for convenience.Is there any downside to this?

@mksj @davidpbest adding you gents for your wealth of experience here.


----------



## Larry$

As long as it is safely done there should be no issues with it. Many machines have their controls located in free standing enclosures. Enclose the wiring in protective conduit, proper connectors, no sharp edges, NEMA enclosure, etc. Make a wiring diagram kept with it. If you are unsure of anything get some one's help that is knowledgeable. Not every electrician is!


----------



## B2

Hi,

Putting everything on the wall or on the end of the lathe should be possible, acceptable and probably preferred.  However, where ever you put it shorter cables are always preferred.  Most folks put both the control electronics and the VFD in the same box so that the wires to and from the VFD and control electronics do not have to run around the room.  In this manner you would have power from the breaker to the VFD in the enclosure and then going to the motor directly from the enclosure.  While  signal wires coming from and to the lathe would travel to the external box via a separate path.  Never, put the signal wires in the same conduit that you put the power through.

So you currently have both power and control wires running back and forth between two boxes and this is not the best approach, anyway.  In my many years of electronics, once safety is ensured, my guiding rule is for wires to be as short as possible to avoid interference with low level signal wires and not to physically over lap (parallel nor crossing, but shielding can help here) the wires with the noise generating wires (power wires mostly).  If they have to be run along side each other, then keep them as separate as possible.  Shielding on the signal wires is usually required, so multiple metal conduits would help.  Safety WRT the power wires may mean that you have to put them in a conduit, or at lease have them in a very well insulated cable. I used a rubber cable to bring power to my enclosure, which is at the back of my PM1440GT.

I put my lathe on casters just so I could roll it out if absolutely needed.  I then built my VFD conversion, got it working, and then rolled the lathe into position close to the wall.  Then I used the lathe feet to lift the lathe off of the casters and to level it.  It turns out that I have had to get into the back of the lathe (the enclosure) to work on things a couple of times and I have been able to do this without moving the lathe, but it is cramped, but since I used plug-in style connectors for most of the controls I could just unplug the wires, then pull the circuit board from the DIN rails and have the electronics to work on elsewhere.    If I had to do major work I would roll the lathe out.  Leveling it did not take that long.  So I have a flexible, well, insulate heavy gauge rubber (big) power cable coming from my wall switch to the lathe.  It is long enough to allow me to roll the lathe several feet from the wall and still be hooked up to power.    All the other power wires are internal, but run only short distances.  
If you look at photo 8a of my VFD posting you will see the end of the yellow rubber cable going into the lathe.  


B2 said:


> VFD conversion using solid state electronic components.



Good luck.


----------



## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> I am really considering removing the box, and mounting it on the wall next to my VFD enclosure for convenience.Is there any downside to this?
> 
> @mksj @davidpbest adding you gents for your wealth of experience here.



I see no problem with this provided the cabling is long enough and routed/secured to stay off of moving parts.  On my 1340, the electrical box was screwed to the headstock with M6 screws and the holes in the headstock were drilled/tapped through the casting.   If yours are tapped through, you will need to plug and seal those holes otherwise you will have oil leaking out the back.


----------



## Christianstark

I decided to just clean up my wiring. Spend a bit more time with it, and leave as is for now. If I do ever need to get into the back of the wiring box mounted on the lathe, I believe at that time I will likely re-do it in an external box...or get with Mark on a control system.

My VFD box will be mounted above the conduit, and to the left of the lathe. Wall is in this photo. This puts everything pretty close.


----------



## Christianstark

All control wires are 18AWG Shielded 3 conductor, or 8 conductor 600V oil resist PVC.

The motor cable, and 220V power to lathe electrical box is 12AWG Shielded 4 conductor of the same brand. 220V hardwire to the VFD Enclosure is 10AWG THHN in conduit.


----------



## mksj

That will all work well, when using shielded cable, the control cable/speed pot. cable shield is only grounded at the VFD end, motor cable shield is grounded at both ends, as well as the cable ground wire (if it has a separate green ground wire). Typically once everything is up and running, there should be no need to get into either machine control cabinet or VFD cabinet. The Hitachi WJ200 has been very reliable in my experience, only faults I have seen has been attempting too fast a stops w/o a braking resistor, and an occasion where the new motor had a short and the VFD went directly into a fault mode when starting. The Teco and Yaskawa VFD's have also worked well and have been reliable.


----------



## Christianstark

Update - 

1340GT - Wiring is going well. Much cleaner the second time around. Should have the lathe side wrapped by this afternoon, and will begin the VFD side.

833TV - Called today for an update. The 4 jaw chucks expected last week are still not in, so my whole order is on hold waiting for them. They just need to toss that in, and crate it up for shipping. For those waiting on an 833TV, I was informed that several are going out today.


----------



## Christianstark

Front side controls! Will need to fabricate a bracket for the pot, and I always planned on making a knob once the lathe is up and running.


----------



## Christianstark

UPDATE - So I hung the VFD enclosure, and I ran 10AWG THHN via conduit to eat box. I terminated the ends of the wiring on both sides with ferrules, and hooked everything up. VFD side directly to the master power switch, and the power panel with a 30A 220V breaker. I finally have power to the VFD. Now I need to run: Controls, Motor, Power, and Potentiometer.

I love progress...


----------



## B2

The install will look nice.

That wall enclosure looks plenty big to put everything I used in my 1440GT conversion.    I got mine into the original stand cabinet after I got rid of the big transformer and the big relays .... They are not really needed if you replace the latching relay with a couple of very small transistors.   Anyway, it would be nice to get everything within easy reach!

 Dave


----------



## Tipton1965

Lookin pretty sharp!!


----------



## Christianstark

Lathe powered up, and programmed. Only correction on wiring I need to do is reverse the jog connectors, and reverse the pot connectors. Then run the motor auto config or whatever it’s called.


----------



## Cletus

Coming along nicely! ..... Now you've got me lusting over the 1340GT


----------



## Christianstark

UPDATE - So I am running through the headstock gears right now. The noise is pretty good in terms of not hearing anything that sounds off, and I can mainly just hear the motor and not the gears themselves.

This weekend I plan on moving the machine to what I hope will be its final resting place, and level it up. Then I will dial in the headstock. Ill need to make a shear pin for the lead screw, and then I should be done till I get the mill. Will need to machine the nut for the QCTP, and mount that, and will need to machine some stand offs for the cross slide DRO head and scale so I have room to access the CS lock.


----------



## Cletus

What's up with the leadscrew shear pin?    You bust the original already??


----------



## Christianstark

Cletus said:


> What's up with the leadscrew shear pin?    You bust the original already??


When I took the lathe apart to move it, I punched the factory lead screw in the wrong direction. Once I figured that out, the aluminum had "smeared" and was seized into the hole, so I had to drill it out. I marred up the hole a tad, but not too bad, so it should still work once I make a new pin.


----------



## Beckerkumm

I wish those assembling machines would punch a dimple in the large end of a pin.  After they get old and painted over it is hard to tell large from small.  Even the steel pins are soft and easy to muck up.  Dave


----------



## Cletus

Ah yes, very easy to muck it up, glad it's not a serious issue.


----------



## Christianstark

Some pics -


----------



## Aukai

My shift levers were hitting the gear shafts, just another thing to check.....IIRC it was A & C


----------



## Christianstark

Well, I couldn't resist to cut something. I can not mount my QCTP till I get my mill, so I disassembled a cheap HF feeler gauge and stacked a few to raise my cutting tool to center. I grabbed some brass rod, and cut it to a very slight taper to fit the lead screw. Then I cut some chips from a thicker brass rod for fun.
	

		
			
		

		
	







Here are some first cut pics.


----------



## Cletus

Good for you!  Was wondering what took you so long? 
If you're anything like me, I'm sure it was horribly painful seeing it laying there and no chips adorning it!


----------



## Christianstark

Cletus said:


> Good for you!  Was wondering what took you so long?
> If you're anything like me, I'm sure it was horribly painful seeing it laying there and no chips adorning it!


Just got it spinning last night  Now I need to move it about a foot towards the wall, and level it, and tram the head stock.


----------



## Christianstark

So far so good. All of @mksj configs from his VFD documentation work like a charm. Here is braking with a 3 jaw chuck installed running at the fastest gear settings at 90Hz.


----------



## Christianstark

UPDATE - 

PM833TV - "
Dear Extremely Valued Customer,

We wanted to send this e-mail to let you know that your order has shipped."

Got a call today scheduling delivery on Monday the 29th. Sweet!!!


----------



## Cletus

I see fun times in your future!!


----------



## Christianstark

Cletus said:


> I see fun times in your future!!


Yep! I need to get the mill running in order to machine the nut for my QCTP. Once I get there, I can really finish up getting both machines fully operational, all DRO's mounted, etc.

The X DRO for the lathe needs me to fabricate some standoffs for the scale, and read head.


----------



## Christianstark

Fresh off the truck...


----------



## wachuko




----------



## Cletus

SWEET!   ...... Let the fun begin!!!


----------



## RetiredRich

I've been following this tread for the longest time.  I think I'm just as exited to see you have finally received your mill.


----------



## Christianstark

RetiredRich said:


> I've been following this tread for the longest time.  I think I'm just as exited to see you have finally received your mill.


It’s been a long wait!


----------



## Christianstark

So I’m thinking out how to best get this beast down the steps outside, and into the basement. Thinking I can break the machine down into several pieces.

It looks like I can remove the x and y together, and all I need to disconnect is an oil line. Thoughts?

also, thinking about removing the control box and motor for additional weight reduction.

latly, was thinking I can remove the head. Anyone have an idea as to how much the head weighs once liberated of its motor and control box?

Finally I can use a hand truck for the rest.


----------



## Tipton1965

Christianstark said:


> So I’m thinking out how to best get this beast down the steps outside, and into the basement. Thinking I can break the machine down into several pieces.
> 
> It looks like I can remove the x and y together, and all I need to disconnect is an oil line. Thoughts?
> 
> also, thinking about removing the control box and motor for additional weight reduction.
> 
> latly, was thinking I can remove the head. Anyone have an idea as to how much the head weighs once liberated of its motor and control box?
> 
> Finally I can use a hand truck for the rest.


Check out this thread!








						Another PM-833TV thread!
					

I know there's already a number of posts and threads about the 833T and TV but I figured I would start one too. The plan for this thread though is not necessarily to talk about the mill itself, its to talk about getting it moved and setup for homegamers such as myself. From what I've found...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## Christianstark

So my mill shipped with a 4 Jaw chuck I was waiting for. Very stiff when I unboxed, so I took it apart. Not very pleased with this piece of kit. Pretty dirty, was not demurred at all, and 2 of the screws took quite a bit with a brass rod to get out. one of the jaw screws actually had a damaged thread from when I assume it was assembled. looks like someone used a non brass drift to pound the screw in, and hauled the end of the thread. The jaws are also not really fitting correctly and bind.

I am soaking the parts in cleaner for a bit, but the jaws I am not sure how those are going to work. Ill try to get a better picture of the jaw fit in the machined slot, but it is obvious to the eye that the slots were milled too tight in one dimension, and don't even touch in another. I am also planning on working on the chuck with some files to get some of the burrs out, but I have a feeling this chuck will always be tough to loosen and tighten.

I wish I had a parts washer for the main chuck body. Its filthy. Also, the handle that came with it for the screws WOULD be good, except for the fact that the 2 grub screws that are used to secure the handle in the "T" are useless as the threads were never put in, and now it is hardened. It was actually shearing the teeth when I tried to tap it. Useless.

Here is a picture of the gauged screw. Someone very obviously abused it during assembly. The next picture you can see how it scored the bore.


----------



## wachuko

Just have PM replace it... that does not look right...


----------



## Christianstark

I’ll call em tomorrow


----------



## Cletus

I'm sure Matt will replace it. That certainly looks like defects originating at the factory.


----------



## Christianstark

Cletus said:


> I'm sure Matt will replace it. That certainly looks like defects originating at the factory.


I did some file work last night and today, and the jaws are sliding much better. I just put the chuck and other parts in the dishwasher to run a rinse and dry cycle, and plan on wiping it down with some light machine oil, and re-assembling with way oil. I THINK the only thing that needs to be replaced is the 1 screw that was damaged when it was installed. I do hope they are able to just source that part, instead of having to wait for an entire chuck, and then de-burr it just to get to run smooth. Amazing what a little work with a few files can do.


----------



## Christianstark

Christianstark said:


> I did some file work last night and today, and the jaws are sliding much better. I just put the chuck and other parts in the dishwasher to run a rinse and dry cycle, and plan on wiping it down with some light machine oil, and re-assembling with way oil. I THINK the only thing that needs to be replaced is the 1 screw that was damaged when it was installed. I do hope they are able to just source that part, instead of having to wait for an entire chuck, and then de-burr it just to get to run smooth. Amazing what a little work with a few files can do.


So a sure fire way to make new iron look like old iron? Run it through the dishwasher!

Not for the feint of heart...but I like it!


----------



## Christianstark

OK so the past few days have been about taking the machine apart when I am not working at my real job, and cleaning, planning, moving, staging for re-assembly. I still need to run power for the machine, and I would like to also run 110V after the on/off switch so I can kill power to machine and all accessories with one flip of a switch. Disassembly has been quite easy on this machine, and the resulting parts have been manageable solo.

Here are a few pictures of the process, and some commentary on the good and meh.

Mill is going to go here. I plan on running 4x10AWG runs through 1/2" Conduit on a dedicated 30A breaker for the machine, DRO and power feeds. Electric will go to a 220V switch first, to power everything up, then to a 220V outlet for the machent to plug into. After the plug I will likely run a bank of 4 outlets off one leg of the 220V for the machine. I am considering calling an audible though, and running 3/4" conduit so I can get unstitched 110V to the opposite wall first, and then backwire to a switch and then machine and bank of a separate 110V outlets.





Here is the X table off the machine. The bottom of the casting was unpainted, and not coated, so it began to develop rust. I wire brushed this, and knocked off the loose rust, then wiped down with WD-40 to clean it




After cleaning the surface rust a bit, I treated both castings with Fluid Film. Mostly on the areas that will be hidden, and likely not to get any lubrication and or love once the machine is back together. I plan on repeating this process on the base and column. These 2 pieces will remain together for the final move to the basement. Planning on ratchet strapping that to a dolly, and 2 manning it down the exterior steps at my house. With everything else removed, it should be manageable.


----------



## wachuko

Are you single?  My wife can tolerate some things...but placing a milling table on the quartz kitchen counter is not one of those...


----------



## Christianstark

wachuko said:


> Are you single?  My wife can tolerate some things...but placing a milling table on the quartz kitchen counter is not one of those...


LOL! No, but I have conditioned her over the years to expect some off-putting behavior...like when I repainted and baked my brake calipers in our oven.


----------



## Tipton1965

I rebuilt a small block chevy engine in my living room once.  But, I was single at the time.


----------



## Just for fun

I used to park my motorcycle in the living room in the winter.. I was single then a well.


----------



## Christianstark

So I only half worked today. Paid more attention to the shop. Time to get the electrical done I guess...


----------



## Cletus

I winch-dragged my PM935 mill from the garage through the lady's kitchen over her ceramic floor tiles and into my workshop. She just shook her head, and went back to watching a game-show on TV


----------



## Christianstark

UPDATE - Got the Z and X power feeds installed, and started to install the DRO. When I opened the box for the head unit, I discovered it was the MX100 and not the MX200 with graphics, so I had to stop.

Here is how I left it last night.





I also made my first part. Machined the T-nut for my QCTP for the lathe.


----------



## Cletus

Looks like you're having fun and making great progress!


----------



## Christianstark

So I have some questions regarding the 833TV.

So far I have installed the power feeds, and I have installed the X axis DRO. Moving on to Z and Y ant the install kits is leaving a lot to be desired in terms of flexibility. The question is, are most people mounting the scale, and then fabricating their own parts to attach the read head in a way that is not super bulky, yet still allows the use of the chip guards? These are the magnetic scales. It almost seems easier to just make my own over trying to figure out how these pieces provided fit together.

Thoughts?


----------



## Cletus

For my 935, I got PM's glass scale with graphic display kit. I used most of the brackets that came with the kit, making only a couple custom pieces for the Z-axis and it's solid as a rock and went together smoothly.  Chip-guard was not used (could not fit) on the Z, but that scale is turned around away from the chips' flight path.


----------



## Christianstark

Question for those who have installed the Align Power-feeds.

I am having some difficulty getting the X axis gear grub screw to hold tight enough on the key. 3 times already the gear has slid on the lead screw, and introduces slop to the table. It is a tiny grub screw, so I was considering re-drilling for a larger grub screw so I can put a tad more torque on it.

Anyone see an issue with this? Is the whole part hardened?


----------



## woodchucker

Just for fun said:


> I used to park my motorcycle in the living room in the winter.. I was single then a well.


I rebuilt my motorcycle motor in my living room when I was single... 3 flights up stairs.. Honda 750F.. Heavy..  Could not do it today, no way.


----------



## Christianstark

Updates!

So here are some things I would have done differently. I may retro later, but I would need to buy another Z axis scale that I cut to fit the right side of my column.

I installed the Z axis DRO scale on the right, and due to the Z axis crank handle casting, I had to cut the scale shorter to fit. I should have mounted this on the left handed side of the mill where I mounted the Z limit bracket, and mounted the limit bracket on the left as well, so the read head and the limit switch rode the same assembly. I could have an additional inch or so of travel in Z, specifically in lowering the head. IF this becomes a limitation, I will re-do the Z DRO, buy a new scale, and mount the scale, head, and powered limiters all on the left. There is no reason why the read head and limit switch cant be stacked on the left Side of the head.










My Y axis placement worked fine here.





And for now I just put my X axis power feed switch here, and used 1 existing hole.





First parts in steel that I made aside from my lathe T-nut are these pieces I plan to wend to the lintel of my fireplace to suspend a wrought iron grate to. No need for a screen because its gas logs. I still need to set up my bench grinder and hit these with a scotchbrite wheel.


----------



## Christianstark

Scotchbrite wheel did OK.


----------



## navadel

Christianstark said:


> Updates!
> 
> So here are some things I would have done differently. I may retro later, but I would need to buy another Z axis scale that I cut to fit the right side of my column.
> 
> I installed the Z axis DRO scale on the right, and due to the Z axis crank handle casting, I had to cut the scale shorter to fit. I should have mounted this on the left handed side of the mill where I mounted the Z limit bracket, and mounted the limit bracket on the left as well, so the read head and the limit switch rode the same assembly. I could have an additional inch or so of travel in Z, specifically in lowering the head. IF this becomes a limitation, I will re-do the Z DRO, buy a new scale, and mount the scale, head, and powered limiters all on the left. There is no reason why the read head and limit switch cant be stacked on the left Side of the head.
> View attachment 389177
> 
> 
> View attachment 389178
> 
> 
> My Y axis placement worked fine here.
> View attachment 389179
> 
> 
> And for now I just put my X axis power feed switch here, and used 1 existing hole.
> View attachment 389180
> 
> 
> First parts in steel that I made aside from my lathe T-nut are these pieces I plan to wend to the lintel of my fireplace to suspend a wrought iron grate to. No need for a screen because its gas logs. I still need to set up my bench grinder and hit these with a scotchbrite wheel.
> View attachment 389181


Hi Christian, just want to share with you how I went about the Z axis DRO and Limit Assy. PM did the DRO install and I wanted everything on the left. I Fabbed up a bracket to hold the limit switch above the Z axis scale. Then fabbed 2 standoffs for the limits switch slide column. it worked perfect for me..


----------



## Christianstark

Very close to what I was thinking. Looks great!




navadel said:


> Hi Christian, just want to share with you how I went about the Z axis DRO and Limit Assy. PM did the DRO install and I wanted everything on the left. I Fabbed up a bracket to hold the limit switch above the Z axis scale. Then fabbed 2 standoffs for the limits switch slide column. it worked perfect for me..


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## StevSmar

navadel said:


> Hi Christian, just want to share with you how I went about the Z axis DRO and Limit Ass…



That’s a very nice installation!!!


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## Christianstark

One thing I need to start looking at is feeds and speeds on Mill and Lathe. I have a feeling I am spinning too fast. I will say thins though, with the carbide inserts on face mills and lathe tools, it seems to LIKE faster speeds from a sound perspective and a surface finish perspective. Not so much with slitting saws. Pro tip. When you put the saw in the arbor, put it on backwards from the top so it is on correctly when you flip it and put it in the spindle. Ask me how I know...twice.


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## davidpbest

Get the FSWizard app for your phone.  I use it a lot.  Very helpful.  For slitting saws, I have found this helpful - the tendency is to run them too fast:






Below is a screen shot from FSWizard of the exact example John used in his video - essentially the same results but in your pocket.


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## Cletus

I've used a number of Feed & Speed calculators. Just downloaded FSWizard and immediately, I like it very much. Went back online and bought the Pro version.  Great recommendation again David, thanks much.

EDIT
One caveat ........can access the cloud from my PCs and Huawei Android phone just fine. However, My Nexus 7 cannot access the cloud to get to saved tool data, I get "*Error!*   Request Aborted"
Have no idea how to resolve this! Sent an email to the developer, hope they can resolve it.
The Nexus 7 is used on the shopfloor.
Excellent app otherwise.
FINAL EDIT
The cloud save feature suddenly started working on the Nexus tonight. Totally happy with this app now!


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## Christianstark

Made my lathe spider that doubles for a RPM magnet holder I plan on JB Welding on. Still need to make brass thumb screws for dialing in stock.


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## Christianstark

Got the RPM meter installed. Pic did not come out great due to the nature of the LCD refresh rate, but here she is. Screen installed on door of VFD enclosure.





	

		
			
		

		
	
M


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## Christianstark

Question for folks with bench type mills.

When I lock my Z axis gib on my 833TV, There is evidence I have a significant amount of nod in my machine. At one point I took both gib adjusting bolts out to see how far I can work the gib into the slide, and the gib extended out the bottom of the assembly several inches before everything locked up. Several meaning like 3 inches.

Is this normal, or do I need to contact PM about getting another gib and work on re-fitting it to my mill?


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## 7milesup

Christianstark said:


> Question for folks with bench type mills.
> 
> When I lock my Z axis gib on my 833TV, There is evidence I have a significant amount of nod in my machine. At one point I took both gib adjusting bolts out to see how far I can work the gib into the slide, and the gib extended out the bottom of the assembly several inches before everything locked up. Several meaning like 3 inches.
> 
> Is this normal, or do I need to contact PM about getting another gib and work on re-fitting it to my mill?


Well, when you find out let me know!   My 833T is the same way, except my gib only extends about an inch or so.  There is no way this can be normal.  I experienced the same nod as you, but I have just not taken the time to follow up with PM.  Heck, mine is old enough that it may not even be in warranty anymore.


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## Tipton1965

I owned an 833TV for awhile.  On my X axis the gib extended past quite a bit.  The gib adjustment bolt was about ready to fall out it was so bad.  I contacted PM and they sent me a new gib but it was rough and I had to fit it myself.  I sold the machine before I ever got around to doing that.  My Z axis gib was just fine.


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## Christianstark

OK, so after I hit send, I got curious and chucked up a Mitutoyo DTI and measured the nod. 

I am seeing  negative .004" over 10 inches. 4 thou over 10 inches and the nod is a negative value, so I THINK it should grow more accurate before it starts getting less accurate.

Is 4 thou over 10" good enough for hobby work?


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## Lucas E

Christianstark said:


> OK, so after I hit send, I got curious and chucked up a Mitutoyo DTI and measured the nod.
> 
> I am seeing  negative .004" over 10 inches. 4 thou over 10 inches and the nod is a negative value, so I THINK it should grow more accurate before it starts getting less accurate.
> 
> Is 4 thou over 10" good enough for hobby work?


That's a lot better than mine. I was measuring roughly .015" in about 9" or travel. I was told the spec is .1 mm per 100 mm of travel. Or roughly .004" in 4 inches. You are less than half that.


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## Christianstark

Well I am going to leave well enough alone then.


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## Lucas E

Christianstark said:


> Well I am going to leave well enough alone then.


As for the gib. Sticking out 3" is a lot. You should be able to adjust it for a nice snug fit and still have room to adjust for wear within the bolts range.


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## B2

@Christianstark 


Christianstark said:


> When I lock my Z axis gib on my 833TV, There is evidence I have a significant amount of nod in my machine. At one point I took both gib adjusting bolts out to see how far I can work the gib into the slide, and the gib extended out the bottom of the assembly several inches before everything locked up. Several meaning like 3 inches.


Hi Christian

To answer your question.  NO!  Not suppose to be this loose.  NO you should not see much nod of this sort.  There are different sources of nod.  In my machine I got this sort of nod down to about 0.001" at the tool after a lot of work and study about gibs!!!  In fact before I started this study the vertical gib was not really working at all.  But I was not educated enough until I studied it to even know!

I have the PM940M-VS-CNC machine.  Yes, all of the Chinese machines seem to have one problem or another or more!  The geared head on the 940M is quite heavy and it would fall when the power was turned off.  i.e. the stepper motor magnet clogging was insufficient to hold it up.  In fact if things were not adjusted just right, gib, it would miss steps on the way up.   So I worked on my column gib a lot and still have things to do to make it right.  But currently it is working.

So there is considerable drag on the gib as the head is moved up and down.  Indeed when going up, with no gib clamping screws, the gib would fall out the bottom by about 1.5".  This is means that the gib moved down until it was very tight!  You are not suppose to do this as it may get too tight to move!  Could it crack the saddle????   In my case, with out the gib clamp screws in place the gib would also walk out the top a little when the head moved down! But this is not as dramatic, but is a good way to get an over tight gib looser.  

Anyway, Your gib is too thin.  Mine was too think by about .005 to .007"  If you clamp your head to the column via external means, Big C-clamp or wood clamp, you can then take the screws out and pull out the gib.  If stuck just tap it out with a flat pointed punch or something similar.  It will come loose and you can just pull it out.  Take some measurements.  Measure the length and the thickness at both ends.  This will give you the taper or slope.  Unless you want to do some complicated, time consuming measurements on the saddle, like I did, you will just have to assume that it has the correct taper to fit your Saddle cut.  Anyway, via the taper you can compute how far off the thickness of your gib is by measuring how far down you need to move our gib to make it just tight.  You do not want it sticking out the big end by more than your screw will reach so you do not want to increases its thickness too much.  The little end screw is just there to trap the gib from moving during motion of the head  (i.e. the two screws hitting both ends prevent it from moving).

You can ask Matt to get you a replacement (he said he would for me), but you are going to have to provide him with exactly what dimensions you want.  This is not so easy to figure out! especially when you find out that the gib tappers in both thickness and in width and not necessarily at the same rate.  You want to get the the width right too so that the corners at the screw heads will catch the screw heads for pushing/clamping during/after adjustments.   I did figure it out and if you really want to know how I did it let me know.  It would take a bit to explain and involved a lot of customized measurements of the machine..  I have yet to ask Matt to have another gib made for me as I still have other problems with the machine. 

I decided to have the big end of gib just stick out the end a bit.  I then computed how much thicker it needed to be to achieve this.  I then put attached a shim to the back side of the gib to make it thicker.  It really does not have to be anything special as it does not rub as the head moves. It is against the saddle side.   In my case, I went searching for materials of the proper thickness that were sticky tape on one side.  If you just put a non-sticky shim you have to make sure that it does not escape by some other means.  I found various duct tape (Not the paper and clothe kind, but the stuff that is Aluminum with sticky on one side to wrap your heading ducts with.   I happened to have 3 different old roles of this and they were of different thicknesses so I picked the one that was 0.005-0.007".  I stuck it to the back side of the gib and trimmed it to fit.  It works!  But the story is not complete.  There is now another problem.  The gib is too short!

Just for the record, the gib tappers both in thickness and in width.  It is a trapezoid in cross-section so as to fit the hole both at the top and the bottom and have a corner sticking out to catch the screw heads.  The width of the gib are the corners that are caught by the screw heads.  They taper to fit into the way corners.  In my case the 55 degree shape.  I think that at the factory they have made up these gibs with extra length.  For each machine, because the saddle ways are cut independent of the column ways being cut, they are custom fit.  They probably slip the gib into the hole until it is tight and then cut the gibs off to length specifically for your machine.  So they cut your gib off incorrectly or the starting material was too thin to begin with.   Hence, it falls into the hole between the ways when not clamped at the ends.  Since it was clamped before perhaps it means that it was not clamped correctly.  (Speculation:  If they had the bottom screw in place when they did their cutting measurement, they may have just pushed the little end behind the screw head a the gib was pinch into being tight.   It was not actually tight against the ways.) 

 The small end of my gib did not stick out very far for the screw to it the end of the gib.  Hence the gib would slide over and be parallel to he screw head cap. It clamped it but not down the length.  It simply wedged the gib against the screw head and the column way in much the manner that the side clamps lock the head in place.  Because my small end was now well up into the hole, the thick end was properly located. I had to make a washer to fit on the small gib end screw.  This washer fit the screw head hold but had a finger on it to reach into the way to hit the small end of the gib.  

 Prior to all of this I actually could never adjust my gib correctly before.  Now I can do an ok job of this.  But once I got it working just sort of got busy with other stuff.  

If all of this is not written clearly just let me know and I will try again.  I was in a hurry to answer your question.  

Dave L.


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## 7milesup

Jeepers Dave.  I am going to have to get up early tomorrow morning with a cup of coffee and read through that!   I do really appreciate your thoroughness.  
I actually have my bottom gib adjustment bolt out and the top all the way in. I did have my gib out at one point and thought it looked really bad.  I have a surface grinder; I should just make a new one. 

Curious what you bought after you sold your first mill?


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## Christianstark

7milesup said:


> Jeepers Dave.  I am going to have to get up early tomorrow morning with a cup of coffee and read through that!   I do really appreciate your thoroughness.
> I actually have my bottom gib adjustment bolt out and the top all the way in. I did have my gib out at one point and thought it looked really bad.  I have a surface grinder; I should just make a new one.
> 
> Curious what you bought after you sold your first mill?


I would worry that the gib may eventually catch when feeding up on the column and break something when it tightens.

edit - When you say bolt out, do you mean backed out as far as you can while still having it engage, or removed?


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## nighthawkFmobil

My 940 was out like .010" over a foot w gibs locked. It bothered me so i tightened things up and I can tram the tilt to <.001" with gib locks tightened. The nod was the same but now its about <.0015 over about 12". I would definitely want a new gib if my fit was so off i couldn't get much thread purchase with the lock screw. 

My table and ways are all super flat and run parallel as far as i can tell. Its just the slop with the heavy head that im not too fond of. Im curious how people run them cnc. Seems like you'd have to really ride the gib locks for a accurate 3 axis system. Id be worried about wear on the column ways. I guess i might have take up the challenge some day.  For now im enjoying running manual.


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## B2

@7milesup 

"Surface Grinder.  I wish."    Maybe we can work something out where you make me a new gib to my specs.  I have been thinking about making one  without a surface grinder. Yes, the gib that I got looks awful.  It is warped and it is bowed/cupped across the width.  It is amazing what you can get a way with so maybe I could make mine.    I wish I had a different mill!  No,  I keep finding things wrong with this one.  In fact, the latest was that I found the ways on the y-axis to be non-parallel so do not work all that great either.    Meanwhile, it makes things and I get by.    A new mill represents a lot of work.  It was hard enough getting the 940M into my basement.  I had to take the table off just to get it through the door.    So new mill would mean getting this one out first and then what.  I do like having the CNC ability, but I must have only one of a few handful that PM ever sold. 

If you are not worried about wear on your ways, I have been thinking about making a gib that just has ends to fit.  Just make the center of the gib thinner so that it only role is to keep two ends of the gib connected.  (think the shape of a dumb bell).  We are so focused on the traditional gib shape that we loose concept of what is is doing.  Two not perfect straight lines can only make contact at two points.  If your contact is at the center then it will always teeter-totter.  Put the two contacts at the ends to avoid this.  I know this is not the idea of scraping, but the roughness of the scraping is a way to allow the gib surface contact points to wear off to allow a best fit.  But the gib has to be pretty close to perfect before you start making it rough.  Maybe even sand blasting it would work like scraping.  Make the gib disposable.  Make it out of brass like my old South Bend Lathes gib.  It would wear down rather than the column ways.   It will of course wear off first where most of the force is applied and generates the greatest friction.   For our mills with a heavy head that will probably be at the bottom of the gib.  .... Just some thoughts.  

@Christianstark 
Yes, I took both bolts out all the way to get the gib out and to do measurements.  You cannot run the lathe without holding the gib in place by some method.  For measurements,  I clamped the whole head to the column with big clamps first so it would not fall or come away from the column.  I used a big big C-clamp that I have, but I could have used a bar clamp.  Broke some of the Bondo and so paint off, but this is the least of the Mill's problems.    In doing measurements of the actual "gib hole" between the column way and the saddle way, I clamped the head to the column in both directions.  It was clamped to pull the head in tight against the NON-gib side column way and then clamped tight so that saddle would sit flat against the column flat surfaces all the way up the saddle.  (This is probably the only time my head has actually been in the proper position entirely!!!)  If the head is pulled back tight against the flat parts of the ways then it will not rock/torque about the x-axis as one change the direction of travel.  This is the function of a well fit good gib and ways.  

For this "gib hole" measurement, I managed to measure the diagonal of the gib hole between the between the column 55 degree corner and the saddle 55 degree corner as a function of the depth of the hole.  That is all the way up the hole.  There is a small error that can be computed that has to do with the fact that the corner of the 55 degree cut is not completely cleared out.  However, it seems to be pretty consistent along the way so is mostly just a constant to be added to the diagonal measurement.  Anyway, with this measurement, and knowing the 55 dgree angles you can calculate the desired thickness and width of the gib as a function of position along the length of the gib.   You can also measure this dimension on the gib itself once it is out, but who says it was made right!  Of course in my measurements and calculations a leap of faith is made that the ways in the column and Saddle are made right.  However, the measurements as function of length pretty much confirm this as they have to be monotonic and hopefully linear.  I plotted these.   I suppose I could share some these measurements some time. It has been a while so I would need to review the data again. It was all put in to spread sheets and plotted over and over.

If the gib is not good enough as to pull the head in all the way, then the head pivots about a point of contact at the bottom corner of contact between the head saddle way flat and the column way flat.  This leaves a small gap at the top between the head saddle and the way flats.  You maybe able to insert a feeler gage into this gap.   If you have 0.010" of Nod observing this gap should be easy! This rocks and so is a form of a Nod.   There should be no rocking/nod about the x-axis if the gib fits perfectly and is tight both at the bottom and top.  Folks commonly measure this nod at the ways, but if you think about it you can simply measure it at the end of the tool chuck. The head is just a solid body rotating around the x-axis.  So just put a dial gage in the tool chuck and then rock the head (torque it around the x-axis).   You will also see this if you use this approach and lift up on the tool chuck area.  

In my CNC this nod also seems to interact with the backlash measurement, but in concept should not. My z-axis back lash had a very strange behavior.    Normally, in a backlash measurement the the measurement gauge just simply does not start moving for a while even though the handle is being cranked.   But on my z-axis the head actually went backwards before it started forward!  So the procedure was: move the head down to position 0.  Start to crank upward and observe the dial gauge.  You would expect that as you crank you might see 0.000, 0.000 , 0.000 , .001, .002, .003 etc.  However, what I observed was something like 0.000, 0.000, -.0005, -.001, -.001, -.0005, 0.000, 0.001, 0.002, etc.  After I "fix" my gib a bit I found a more normal backlash pattern.

Dave L.


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## 7milesup

I was thinking about all of these gib issues and wondered if anyone has considered fabricating up a mounting system for linear guide rails


----------



## B2

Only briefly!  I am sure that doing so would have its own set of problems and would take me a lot of time.  Fixing this mill properly will also take a lot of time.   I thought about trying to replace it, but it seems that all the mills I could get in my basement are being made in China and would have the same QC problems.  Maybe buying an old US made mill (Bridgeport)  would be the best option... if I had room for one and I was willing to give up the CNC.  For me the biggest task hanging over my mill is not the vertical issues.... which are substantial.  But the quality of the ways in general.  I am pretty sure the ways on the column do not stay at a constant spacing from top to bottom, but there is a reasonable portion of the travel where I can adjust the gib to and still work.  The X-axis works, over the entire range provided, but you have to put up with about 0.005" back lash.  Someday maybe will be able to reduce this.    The Y axis on the other hand has ways which are not parallel.  The spacing between the ways deviates by at least 0.014" meaning that I cannot run the gib properly over the entire range.  I still have about 5-6" where it works and if I need to go farther I have to open the gib up.  I measure these backlash properties by adjusting the gib tightness.  I suspect that if I wanted to scrape off 0.014" over about 5 inches I could fix this.  I am not for sure I know how to do this in the years that I have left.  

You ask,


7milesup said:


> Curious what you bought after you sold your first mill?


.... I wish I knew what CNC to purchase  ....  that would not have as many problems.  it seems to be the luck of the draw. Others have found their machines (same model without the CNC) work a lot better than mine.     I noticed that South Bend sells a CNC mill but I think they just buy  it from  China anymore!  I am open to suggestions.  

Dave L.


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## IamNotImportant

Just a thought, since with CNC, what about "linear rails", this would prob solve the issue of not being parallel

Oh and another thought, with how some used "brace" the X2 mill's Z axis with bars affixed to the column and the table to help keep it from flexing, the same thought goes through my head with these big bench mills, where the head is so heavy that it causes bow in the column..


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## 7milesup

IamNotImportant said:


> same thought goes through my head with these big bench mills, where the head is so heavy that it causes bow in the column..


On my PM833T, there certainly is no bow due to the head weight.  The vertical column is a substantial piece of cast iron.  The issue that I have lies wholly within the ways and gibs.


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## Tipton1965

IamNotImportant said:


> the same thought goes through my head with these big bench mills, where the head is so heavy that it causes bow in the column..


I know James who has a You Tube channel had issues with his column mill flexing and being rather springy from the weight of the head.  He describes it in this video.


----------



## B2

I am sorry guys I did not explain myself well.  I do not think the column is bowing/flexing as you have described it.  Let me try again.  Below is my theoretical concept that I was suggesting.  

Yes, I know about James, YouTube, and his mill.  Unfortunately he did not describe exactly what they were, just that he was disappointed. He also traded it in so he did not fix the problem.  He also was not trying to use it as a CNC and the knee mill he got is not very good for a CNC conversion.  I think the replacement mill that he got is the same one that David Best purchased and David told me that even that mill he had to work on it a lot to get it to work right.  He may have even replace the entire head!  

All of these  bench Mill columns seem to be made in a U shaped cross section.  This is so that the head can be attached to the lead screw through the opening of the U.  At the top and bottom of the column the U is closed at the front to form a box shaped cross section.  The distance between these end boxes determines the travel distance of the head.  The ball nut is mounted to the head saddle mount and reaches through the U opening to attach to the turning lead screw.  So the saddle attaches (hangs from) to the ways on the column with the column ways (55 degree corners) being at the opening of the U.  The head saddle is about a foot long and the gib is in between the saddle ways and the column way.  As the head hangs on these ways it tend to torque about the x-axis.  That is it apply pressure against the column at the bottom, but pulls on the ways at the top. Due to the angular shape of the 55 degree ways this pulling tends to press the ends of the U together.   This torque, for a heavy head, is quite substantial and I believe can deflect the width of the U at the ways.  So when the head is in the vertical middle point the column the U bends together, but when the head is at the top or the bottom of the column where the box shape is right at the edge of the U shape part the box starts to play a stronger role to stiffen up the U portion, so the U bends very little if any.   Think of the ways as a board supported at the ends but with noting under it in the middle... and you were going to walk across the board.  It would deflect downward as you approached the middle.  It is just a spring as the board bends.   So what does this mean?

It says that the distance between the two sides of the column ways varies as the head goes up and down!  In the middle position when the head is far from the ends the distance between the column ways is the smallest.  Hence the gib is looser there than it would be when the head is at the top or bottom of the column!  It would not take much of a flexing of the U shape to reach a few thousands and a few thousands is a lot for a gib.  You can adjust the gib for the middle or for the ends, but it is different.  And in this theory it is a function of the head position.  Probably somewhat linear.  I purchased the parts to make a special micrometer to fit across the column ways but have yet to make the rest of the parts to put it together.  If I ever get around to this I will measure the column U separation (distance between the two column 55 degree ways) as a function of the head position.  I want to do this anyway to see if the two way sides are parallel.  I will of course use this same tool to measure my x and y ways as well.  In concept if a had a large distance micrometer I could do the measurement, but there is not much room to insert one behind the motor etc.  I am essentially going to build one that is very accurate, but which is not so big.  I purchased an open end 1 micron sensitve digital micrometer for this.  One inserts a couple of cylinders into the ways to press against in this sort of measurement. 

If I do find this U flexing effect is coming into play there is not a lot one can do to the column ways to fix it.  But here the possible solutions I have come up with:  1)  In concept one could machine the ways at the top and bottom to be narrower, i.e. to be equal to the flexed U distance, but this is a dynamic system and would be different for different Milling heads etc.   In concept I could do  this with a lot of difficult "scraping" while measuring the flexure.  That is scrape down into the 55 degree ways while the head is mounted so as to allow measurements.   But is  almost impossible to manufacture, even if the manufacturer were precise at manufacturing. NOT!  2) Figure out some internal bracing inside the U to hold the ways from flexing.   Possible, but very difficult given that the ball nut must travel inside the U.  Maybe reinforce the shape from the outside would work,  but it would be in the way of all of the external moving parts ... limit switch travel, DRO, etc.  3) Rebuild the entire column to be stronger.  Maybe a new saddle while doing it. It would be better if the manufacturer had done this to start with!  4) Reduce the head weight so that the torquing effect is reduced.  Or, counter balance the head weight in some manor.  The best approach I have come up  with for this is to mount some pulleys on the top of the column, run a couple of cables over the pulleys, attached the ends of the cable to the head and to a weight that is hanging down the back of the column.  As the head goes up and down the weights move in the opposite direction to help lift the head.  The cables need to be mounted to the head near its center of gravity to prevent the torquing effect. So probably out past the motor and the ideal approach is for the cable to travel vertically so that the lift does not change angle as the head is lifted. In my mills case this weight needs to approach 275#s to fully counter balance the head weight.  Instead of weights some sort of spring contraption might be used.  I had though of either air springs that pull, but I have not found any yet that have as long a retraction distance as my mills travel.  Or maybe a preloaded torsional spring like the ones used on some garage doors.    5) The last solution I come up with is to get a better mill!  But which mill model is it that does not have its own problems.  Hopefully just fewer and less severe problems.     

As they say, "Man plans and God laughs!"  

Good night.
Dave L.


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## davidpbest

<begin rant>   I’ve talked with James extensively.  There are substantial differences in the rigidity of the square column on different models of benchtop mills.  My Rong Fu 45 (and four others I have tuned up for friends) are vastly more rigid than my PM-935 knee mill. James’ PM-940 was worse than his PM-935 knee mill and even much worse than his small Grizzly 0704.  So there is no universal truth here about square column benchtop mills being less rigid than a knee mill.  

What is true, is that if the gibs are not properly fitted in the dovetail ways, there will be sloppiness under load - even with the gibs locked on the knee or the column.  Start fitting the gibs properly if you want repeatable tight tolerance results.  Today, neither mainland China nor Taiwan seem to put much effort into properly fitting the gibs on the more value-priced mills. I spent a full weekend fitting the gibs on my 935 to substantial benefit.  

It’s true that if the column on a benchtop, or the knuckle/ram on a knee mill are springy castings, no amount of gib fitting is going to yield high tolerance results.  

Neil, If tight tolerances are what you want, I encourage you to blue up the gibs and get them properly fitted to the dovetails even if you have to resort to an angle grinder, a file, and some KY.  <end of rant>


----------



## B2

@davidpbest 
David, I think that the springing that I was referring to is different than the bending of the column that James must have discussed with you???  I just expounded on this. I think the U shape of the column is flexing inward making the gib loose at different positions along the z-axis.  See the posting that went up as you were <begin rant> ing ....

Dave L.


----------



## davidpbest

B2 said:


> I am sorry guys I did not explain myself well.  I do not think the column is bowing/flexing as you have described it.  Let me try again.  Below is my theoretical concept that I was suggesting.
> 
> All of these Mill columns are made in a U shaped cross section.  This is so that the head can be attached through the opening of the U.  At the top and bottom of the column the U is closed at the front to form a box shaped cross section.  The distance between these end boxes is the travel distance of the head.  The ball nut is mounted to the head saddle and reaches through the U opening to attach to the turning lead screw.  So the saddle attaches to the ways on the column with the column ways (55 degree corners) being at the opening of the U.  The head saddle is about a foot long and the gib is in between the saddle ways and the column way.  As the head hangs on these ways it tend to torque about the x-axis.  That is it apply pressure against the column at the bottom, but pulls on the ways at the top. Due to the angular shape of the 55 degree ways this pulling tends to press the ends of the U together.   This torque, for a heavy head, is quite substantial and I believe can deflect the width of the U at the ways.  So when the head is in the vertical middle point the column the U bends together, but when the head is at the top or the bottom of the column where the box shape is right at the edge of the U shape part the box starts to play a stronger role to stiffen up the U portion, so the U bends very little if any.   Think of the ways as a board supported at the ends but with noting under it in the middle... and you were going to walk across the board.  It would deflect downward as you approached the middle.  It is just a spring as the board bends.   So what does this mean?
> 
> It says that the distance between the two sides of the column ways varies as the head goes up and down!  In the middle position when the head is far from the ends the distance between the column ways is the smallest.  Hence the gib is looser there than it would be when the head is at the top or bottom of the column!  It would not take much of a flexing of the U shape to reach a few thousands and a few thousands is a lot for a gib.  You can adjust the gib for the middle or for the ends, but it is different.  And in this theory it is a function of the head position.  Probably somewhat linear.  I purchased the parts to make a special micrometer to fit across the column ways but have yet to make the rest of the parts to put it together.  If I ever get around to this I will measure the column U separation (distance between the two column 55 degree ways) as a function of the head position.  I want to do this anyway to see if the two way sides are parallel.  I will of course use this same tool to measure my x and y ways as well.  In concept if a had a large distance micrometer I could do the measurement, but there is not much room to insert one behind the motor etc.  I am essentially going to build one that is very accurate, but which is not so big.  I purchased an open end 1 micron sensitve digital micrometer for this.  One inserts a couple of cylinders into the ways to press against in this sort of measurement.
> 
> If I do find this U flexing effect is coming into play there is not a lot one can do to the column ways to fix it.  But here the possible solutions I have come up with:  1)  In concept one could machine the ways at the top and bottom to be narrower, i.e. to be equal to the flexed U distance, but this is a dynamic system and would be different for different Milling heads etc.   In concept I could do  this with a lot of difficult "scraping" while measuring the flexure.  That is scrape down into the 55 degree ways while the head is mounted so as to allow measurements.   But is  almost impossible to manufacture, even if the manufacturer were precise at manufacturing. NOT!  2) Figure out some internal bracing inside the U to hold the ways from flexing.   Possible, but very difficult given that the ball nut must travel inside the U.  Maybe reinforce the shape from the outside would work,  but it would be in the way of all of the external moving parts ... limit switch travel, DRO, etc.  3) Rebuild the entire column to be stronger.  Maybe a new saddle while doing it. It would be better if the manufacturer had done this to start with!  4) Reduce the head weight so that the torquing effect is reduced.  Or, counter balance the head weight in some manor.  The best approach I have come up  with for this is to mount some pulleys on the top of the column, run a couple of cables over the pulleys, attached the ends of the cable to the head and to a weight that is hanging down the back of the column.  As the head goes up and down the weights move in the opposite direction to help lift the head.  The cables need to be mounted to the head near its center of gravity to prevent the torquing effect. So probably out past the motor and the ideal approach is for the cable to travel vertically so that the lift does not change angle as the head is lifted. In my mills case this weight needs to approach 275#s to fully counter balance the head weight.  Instead of weights some sort of spring contraption might be used.  I had though of either air springs that pull, but I have not found any yet that have as long a retraction distance as my mills travel.  Or maybe a preloaded torsional spring like the ones used on some garage doors.    5) The last solution I come up with is to get a better mill!  But which mill model is it that does not have its own problems.  Hopefully just fewer and less severe problems.
> 
> As they say, "Man plans and God laughs!"
> 
> Good night.
> Dave L.




This makes some sense to me.  The internal structures on the column vary from machine to machine. It would be easy enough to instrument this with a couple of dowel pin in the dovetails, measuring across them with at micrometer, and heavily loading up the locking levers.  That test could be done at various heights of the column.  You could also affix a wire rope cable to the spindle (chuck it up In a collet) and start applying tension and see how the head displaces at various positions.  This video pops to mind, although a more precise load and measurement technique could be employed.  Skip to 8:45 in the timeline.


----------



## B2

Yes, a good video.  In formative.  Thanks. I have not tried this measurement techique.  The 940M column is much bigger in cross section than the mills in the video so probably stiffer.

Of course I am discussing torque about the x axis not about the y as in the video.  What he shows is indeed a bending of the column as oppose to my discussing a pinching of the ways toward each other.  I know you understand this via your comments.  

I would do the measurement you describe, but I do not have the micrometer that is wide enough but that is small enough to fit behind the motor but close to the saddle ... ie the best place... yet.  

Dave L.


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## IamNotImportant

7milesup said:


> On my PM833T, there certainly is no bow due to the head weight.  The vertical column is a substantial piece of cast iron.  The issue that I have lies wholly within the ways and gibs.


I decided to "edit" this post.. thanks


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## Christianstark

I was today years old when I finally realized that all the chatter and vibration I was getting with my insert face mills was because I was not taking a big enough cut, or a high enough table speed for mild hot rolled steel.


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## Christianstark

Today was my second day single point threading. Yesterday I broke 6 insert points (2 lay down inserts with 3 cutting edges each), but today I got my head out of my ass and threaded about 7” long 1/2 20 threads with a HSS cutting tool I ground myself. Turned out great!


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> Today was my second day single point threading. Yesterday I broke 6 insert points (2 lay down inserts with 3 cutting edges each), but today I got my head out of my ass and threaded about 7” long 1/2 20 threads with a HSS cutting tool I ground myself. Turned out great!


Sounds like one of the following: 

your indexable tool is either not at spindle axis height or loose in the tool post
the insert is not properly installed, well seated, or doesn’t properly fit the toolholder (insert is upside down, wrong size for the toolholder, or the toolholder has a sloppy insert pocket)
the compound/tool is flexing under load
your depth of cut is too great
you are stopping the spindle with the insert still engaged in the cut and not in a thread relief area.  
Clearly something is amiss with your technique.  If you want some help with this, DM me.


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## woodchucker

Christianstark said:


> Today was my second day single point threading. Yesterday I broke 6 insert points (2 lay down inserts with 3 cutting edges each), but today I got my head out of my ass and threaded about 7” long 1/2 20 threads with a HSS cutting tool I ground myself. Turned out great!


you did that unsupported, without a tail stock? Wow, I'm impressed.


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Sounds like one of the following:
> 
> your indexable tool is either not at spindle axis height or loose in the tool post
> the insert is not properly installed, well seated, or doesn’t properly fit the toolholder (insert is upside down, wrong size for the toolholder, or the toolholder has a sloppy insert pocket)
> the compound/tool is flexing under load
> your depth of cut is too great
> you are stopping the spindle with the insert still engaged in the cut and not in a thread relief area.
> Clearly something is amiss with your technique. If you want some help with this, DM me.



Before I got the process down it was a hodgepodge off all of that. 


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## Christianstark

woodchucker said:


> you did that unsupported, without a tail stock? Wow, I'm impressed.



Lol that was just the after so I could test the educated quick nut. There was a live center in involved during the cutting.


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## xr650rRider

Seems like I've threaded 200 feet and still on same cheap carbide insert tip. 12-40 tpi.


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## Christianstark

xr650rRider said:


> Seems like I've threaded 200 feet and still on same cheap carbide insert tip. 12-40 tpi.


I was completely doing everything wrong. All user error.


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## Christianstark

So the final parts to do change my 3 axis milling DRO into a 4 --> 3 axis DRO. A summing box to sum the quill and head on the Z Axis and the needed cables are en-route from the UK. The plan is to remove the quill depth stop from the quill, and put the quill scale read head in the slot it leaves behind in the head, and then mount the scale so it moves with the quill. I will also them mount a new and better quill stop mechanism using a 1/2" 20 thread rod I made on my lathe, with a BP educated quick nut. Will be more precise, and a stronger quill stop than factory. I will be making a new plate for the head, and the quill column to mount verything on and through. The scale and read head are magnetic from DRO Pros, and comparable with Electronica DRO's. I have already tested the scales functionality with the PM MagExact MX200, and it works like a charm.

Wish me luck!


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## Christianstark

Finally got around to putting on a custom knob for my motor speed control. The lightbulb is motor speed, and the coolant is 2 stage braking on my machine.


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## davidpbest

Does it go to 11 on the dial?


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Does it go to 11 on the dial?



Well I just made it faster, and go to 10.


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## Christianstark

So project Quill summing DRO and educated nut quill stop is powering on. I have received the Quill scale and encoder, and was able to get the Z axis MagXact and the new encoder summing through the MDRO box. SUCCESS!!! Now that I have proved the concept that my z axis DRO will be the sum of column and quill, I think I have settled on making the encoder movable, and mounting the scale magnet side back to the machines faceplate. For the encoder, I Will either alter the factory quill stop rod, or fabricate a new one so the encoder can mount to the top of it like in the picture. Obviously it would be straighter than it is now just sitting on top.   The idea is when I re-install the cover, it would be sitting in the perfect position tp read the scale, mounted to the cover. I would make it so it is somewhat adjustable till I get the correct spacing.

The Quill stop and educated nut would be installed in the front of the cover, and for that I would need to fabricate a new spindle plate to bolt on where the factory and sits now, and a plate to mount to the casting of the head. The plate mounted to the head would be fixed to the head, and the other plat would mount the the quill, allowing a hard, and accurate stop to quill down feed. This is based on RIMSPOKEs post here. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm-833t-educated-quill-stop.57843/

Looking forward to continuing the project!


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## Christianstark

Secondly, I would love to rout the encoder cable through the casting hole in the back, so it is mostly hidden from view. The encoder and the plug is too big to pass through. Should I attempt to disassemble, or should I carbide burr the passthrough hole a tad bigger? I think 1/4" would let me slip the read head through.


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## Christianstark

Did a little work on the scale. Now I need to fab a holder for the read head. I cut the opening for the factory quill stop taller, so I can get full range of quill motion for the read head and scale. Doing the final adjustments should not be tough, as I can dial everything with machining stand offs the exact thickness of the cover, and mount the scale on the standoffs without the cover to access the adjustments behind. I am thinking this will wait till I remove the spindle housing to install the new clamp on plate to hold the read head assembly (old quill stop) and a portion that stands off in front to hold the 1/2"20 rod for the educated nut. My spindle tach was actually working half the time today. Every time I start the machine, it is a 30/70 chance it will work. PM is aware and looking into a replacement board, but we are not sure which board it is. I replaced the wire with another ethernet cable, but nope. Not the cable.


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## Christianstark

The scale was left a tad longer than I needed for quill travel so I could anchor both sides in the casting. If I have issues with the scale bowing after  some time, I can fabricate some back supports spanning the cover, and fasten the scale at 2 points in the center, but I think this will be good enough and within recommended margin of errors by the manufacturer.


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## Christianstark

I have also removed the spindle, to remove the quill stop plate and take some measurements. Got rid of some paint overspray while I had it apart.



















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## Larry$

Whoa, an empty drawer to put parts in, shocking! I'm not going to show my over stuffed drawers and junk cake pan part catchers.


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## StevSmar

Christianstark said:


> Got the RPM meter installed. Pic did not come out great due to the nature of the LCD refresh rate, but here she is. Screen installed on door of VFD enclosure.
> M


What’s your impression of using the “buttons” on the MagXact MX-200M?
The manual says that the entire display is touch sensitive and I’ve read of others having a preference for actual buttons instead of a touchscreen. How have you found using touch buttons?

What’s your overall impression of the MagXact MX-200M?


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## Christianstark

StevSmar said:


> What’s your impression of using the “buttons” on the MagXact MX-200M?
> The manual says that the entire display is touch sensitive and I’ve read of others having a preference for actual buttons instead of a touchscreen. How have you found using touch buttons?
> 
> What’s your overall impression of the MagXact MX-200M?



Be back to answer this later.


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## Christianstark

Test fit the bottom plate. Need to do some filing, rounding corners, and bluing of parts. The upper plate that te educated nut will sit on is next.















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## Christianstark

StevSmar said:


> What’s your impression of using the “buttons” on the MagXact MX-200M?
> The manual says that the entire display is touch sensitive and I’ve read of others having a preference for actual buttons instead of a touchscreen. How have you found using touch buttons?
> 
> What’s your overall impression of the MagXact MX-200M?


OK.

So far the touch buttons have been fine. I have not removed the protective plastic covers on the screens yet, but the touch works fine through it.

Buttons are more tactile, for sure, and the only areas of the screen are the buttons themselves from what I have seen, so actual buttons would have worked fine. I do not think the display itself is actually touch sensitive at all.

To date, I have not had to use any feature on the 200 that is not available on the 100. If I had to do it all over again, I MAY just go with the cheaper DRO. From what I can tell with my limited use, is the only real difference is the pictures you can follow for bolt holes, etc. There is one problem with the 200's and that is it is not reading feed speed correctly. It is off by a factor of 3 times what the value should be, give or take. PM has been working on this issue with their vendor, but the first attempt to re-flash the firmware wound up bricking their test DRO...so they are back to the drawing board. I am not sure if the MX-100 has the same issue.


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## StevSmar

Christianstark said:


> …So far the touch buttons have been fine….
> 
> …There is one problem with the 200's and that is it is not reading feed speed correctly. It is off by a factor of 3 times what the value should be, give or take.…


Thanks for your impression of the MX-200!

I‘ve put in a order for a PM-833TV with one of those since I found that:
- Each touch button has a light.
- A beep function can be enabled to give audio feedback of a button press.

Interesting there is a software problem with the feed rate. I wonder if the equivalent from DROpro’s has the same issue (their Electronica EL 700)

By the way, DROpro’s has a video series on the functionality of the EL 700:


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## Christianstark

Made some progress on my DRO/Educated Quick Nut Quill Stop project today.

Next I need to fabricate the block that the educated nut hits to stop, and a bracket to fasten the read head to the top of the old quill stop with some adjustability for the encoder. Last some hand work on the parts, and I THINK I am going to just blue and oil the parts so I don't have to match paint...and so it does not chip.

Progress!


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## Christianstark

So here we are today. I wish I knew how to use Fusion 360. It would be a lot easier to print plans and go for it, but I am just piecing this together by whichever way the wind takes me. I now have a functional quill stop, and will have to fabricate the final piece. A magnetic DRO encoder mount that is slightly adjustable in 2 axis so I can finish up my project. I have learned a lot about the limits of my machine, troubleshooting, cutters and their behaviors, feeds, speeds, and Koolmist. Lastly, measuring is sometimes hard when working in 3 dimensions, and my eyes are **** in close range.


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> So here we are today. I wish I knew how to use Fusion 360. It would be a lot easier to print plans and go for it, but I am just piecing this together by whichever way the wind takes me. I now have a functional quill stop, and will have to fabricate the final piece. A magnetic DRO encoder mount that is slightly adjustable in 2 axis so I can finish up my project. I have learned a lot about the limits of my machine, troubleshooting, cutters and their behaviors, feeds, speeds, and Koolmist. Lastly, measuring is sometimes hard when working in 3 dimensions, and my eyes are **** in close range.


Send me a hand drawn sketch with dimension notations and I’ll model it up in F360 and create a 2D drawing package based on the model.


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Send me a hand drawn sketch with dimension notations and I’ll model it up in F360 and create a 2D drawing package based on the model.



I may just take you up on that someday. 


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## Christianstark




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## Christianstark

Next small project was to replace the janky, and awkward DRO mount from the provided parts that came in the universal install kit, to a monolithic block machined bespoke to my install. Not only is it a cleaner and stronger install, but it is also more compact, and allows better access to my Z gib locks.

Before





After


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## Christianstark

Question for the more experienced. I am replacing the X leaf screw nut on my 833TV. From factory, the adjustment screw was winched down as far as it would go, so no more tweaking can be done to adjust backlash.

I received the new nut, but the inner bore and acme tapped area is rough. Seems like thousands of very time burrs. The machining itself is sound. Should I install it and let use lap it smooth, or should I lap it prior with some high grit # sandpaper to smooth it out? 

Thoughts?


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## Christianstark

Decided to just install it. Backlash is hugely improved with the new nut. The bearings on both lead screw guides are a bit clunky in rotation feel so I may order new ones. Not sure what caused this. Maybe I over-tightened when I installed my power feed gear?I had to loosen the drive gear first time I installed it due to handle being hard to turn.


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## Christianstark

I was making some precision accessories for my rotary table today, and after some unexpected results, I made a test bar and found in cutting a 14 thou taper over 12 inches. Sweeping my 3 jaw chuck with a DTI shows me my head is out of alignment. Looks like I have some tuning to do.


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## Just for fun

That seems a long ways out.  Good luck getting it lined up in short order.


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> I was making some precision accessories for my rotary table today, and after some unexpected results, I made a test bar and found in cutting a 14 thou taper over 12 inches. Sweeping my 3 jaw chuck with a DTI shows me my head is out of alignment. Looks like I have some tuning to do.


If you want to borrow my MT5 precision alignment arbor, I'm agreeable if you pay postage both directions.  




__
		https://flic.kr/p/ST9RUG


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## Christianstark

I have one. I’ll use it to line up now after I confirm it’s accurate. If it is off I’ll shoot you a DM to work out the logistics!

Thanks David



davidpbest said:


> If you want to borrow my MT5 precision alignment arbor, I'm agreeable if you pay postage both directions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/ST9RUG


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## Christianstark

OK I’m very confused. Test bar shows my headstock is aligned. Still don’t understand why I would get the measurements I got on the face of my 3 jaw from front to back.


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## Just for fun

Maybe a little piece of junk between the chuck and the spindle?  My guess is you would have noticed that right off the get go.  I'm just guessing, looking forward to what some of the experts have to say.


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## Christianstark

Just for fun said:


> Maybe a little piece of junk between the chuck and the spindle?  My guess is you would have noticed that right off the get go.  I'm just guessing, looking forward to what some of the experts have to say.


Turned the chuck 120 degrees 3 rimes and saw the same.


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## Christianstark

Maybe I was just getting too much deflection on the cuts.


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## Just for fun

Kind of sounds like the cross slide is not parallel to the chuck.  If I remember correctly somebody with a 1236T was complaining about that.  Don't quote me on that though I may be incorrect.


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## mksj

If you are making a test cut 12" long and it is unsupported on the other end, then you will cut a taper unless you are using 3 or 4" stock, there is always going to be some deflection from cutting the further away from the chuck. I would suggest doing a two ring test taking very light cuts with a sharp cutter. In addition even if you are using a live center to support the other end of a work piece and it is on center, you may have to slightly tweak the tailstock position to get the same diameter across the piece (we are talking under 0.001") and depends on the material, DOC, etc. The cross slide position should not change, its position is dictated by the ways, so unless they are worn or twisted that should not be a factor. The cross slide can move slightly if not locked or the gibbs are not set correctly, but usually we are talking less than 0.001" in my experience.


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## Christianstark

Today I put my MT5 ground test bar between centers after confirming my headstock alignment was good, and dialed in my tail stock. The GT1340 tailstock is a tad finniky, but I started with a dial test indicator on the tailstock quill, nearly fully extended and locked down, and dialed in the parallelism to the bed ways using the rear most adjusting screws. Next I swept back and forth on the test bar to get the center dialed in using the opposing side adjusting screws. I had to back off the rear screws just a tad so the tailstock would shift smoothly in the X axis, and then button everything up once adjusted to ensure it was all tightly locked in place. A 3 casting design may make each axis of tail stock adjusting easier, removing dependancies between the X axis, and Axial alignment. but it just took a bit of back and forth and hopefully I am good for a while there.

When sweeping the Z travel, I noticed my DTI would show about a thou in variance based on where the wheel was, so I suspect there is some slight runout or eccentricity of the feed gear and the straight gear mounted to the bed, so I slightly tightened the rear apron gibs to minimize the pulse. Did a slight adjustment on the cross slide gib, and the compound gib, and buttoned everything up.

I just started making the Hemingway sensitive knurling tool, so I can now continue with that build. I think I may turn a live center nose extender so I can do a better job of getting my cutting tools closer to small diameter parts. Question for those who have the PM live center. How do you take it apart for maintenance?


----------



## Christianstark

Everything I put in my 3 jaw chuck comes out horrible.Did some more testing today, and it seems that everything I put in the chuck favors Jaw 2 by .003 - .006" repeatably.

I seem to be cutting about a .004" plus taper when doing any operation with my 3 jaw. In other words, my cut starts fine near the live center, and gets narrower as I approach the chuck because it is holding every part eccentric to center. Thats pretty damn annoying. Without a tool post grinder, I am not sure there is much I can do about it...I had a .004" taper on a 3 inch part.

Edit - After thinking about the above, that should not be turning a taper. I am at a complete loss. Got my test bar directly in the MT5 less than a half a thou over 12 inches, I then put that bar in and aligned my tailstock. Anything I cut is narrower towards the chuck than it is near the tail.

I think my next step needs to be inspecting level incrementally down the bed to check for twist... but I still don't understand why I can indicate down 12" of test bar accurately if I had twist.


----------



## mksj

Try it with a 4J independent, sounds like it is an issue with the 3J chuck, they can have a TIR issue, but also a skew or axial deflection issue.


----------



## Christianstark

mksj said:


> Try it with a 4J independent, sounds like it is an issue with the 3J chuck, they can have a TIR issue, but also a skew or axial deflection issue.



Thanks Mark. I just re- measured with test bar. Along the Z I’m getting in the tenths over the length of the bar, but testing Y (top of bar) I see a 1.5 thou rise approaching the tail. I know this won’t impact much, but wouldn’t the impact increase parabolically the smaller the stock I’m cutting?


----------



## mksj

Should not make that much of a difference over short distances, also depends on the cutter height. That being said it is hard to dial in the tool height to that degree, sounds like the jaws are not holding the work true. If you have another chuck, I would try that.


----------



## Ischgl99

You may have a chip or other gunk on the jaw scroll groove.  Try removing all the jaws and making sure they are clean.  While they are out, look on the scroll as well to make sure there is not anything in there that could be causing the problem.


----------



## davidpbest

I got $5 says it’s your chuck.


----------



## Christianstark

Tried my ER40 set tru chuck today. Indicated the inside taper and got no run out there. Loaded up a bar, faced and center drilled and pulled it out about 10" and supported with live center. Took a cut and I was getting 3 thou under at the chuck. I must be doing something wrong at some point, but I have been unable to measure it. I can only measure my work, and it is coming out with a taper.


----------



## mksj

If your tailstock is out slightly, i.e. not forward enough you will cut a taper that is smaller at the chuck. Also to indicate the TIR at the chuck when using a set-tru type of chuck, I usually chuck up a precision ground rod (1/2" and 1") and zero out the TIR at the chuck.


----------



## Christianstark

So I think I have ID'ed the issue, or at least a contributing factor. I am getting a dead nuts reading on a test bar with a DTI and a small ball tip, on a cylinder. Well this could be an issue, so I decided to measure the spindle using a DTI on a flat surface, and check my work with my DRO.

The problem in pictures.

I advanced Z to zero on my DTI, and then zeroed the DRO.










Then I backed off Z, and advanced X to the other side of the spindle. Advanced Z to zero on my DRO. The result is obvious.









The theory is that me using a ball tipped DTI on a cylinder, would mask the results in a 10-12 inch sweep if the head had nod. I was able to measure some nod. BUT in order to measure and fix one, I need to know the other is right. I think if I had started this process with 2 dial indicators with FLAT bottoms 90 degrees opposed to each other, (like in Davids picture) this mystery would have been apparent.

TL/DR - My head is out of alignment.


----------



## Christianstark

Starting completely over. Removed the taper but the test bar is wildly off. Going to re-lvevl the lathe and carefully measure for twist, then deal with the headstock again I need to stop chasing my tail and start from the beginning. My precision level kinda sucks though...and its a real PITA to dial in in my built in 1960 house with no good reference level anywhere.


----------



## mksj

Your headstock is way out of alignment. Level is relative, the only thing that matters is that it reads the same front to back moving down the ways. A test bar should work, but when doing the headstock alignment on my lathes I use Rollie's  Dad method, just chuck up a round rod and make sure the +/- swing is the same in both directions moving down the rod and rotating it at each test point. I use a dial indicator with a mushroom/flat head. Then one can do some light test cuts. Just about everyone I know with the 1236T/1340GT, the headstock needed alignment after the lathe was delivered and leveled.


----------



## Christianstark

I have had it. Just threw a *******t cheap eBay "master" precision level in the trash..The glass on it was flawed. badly.The adjustment on it was awful. The glass must have been banana shaped as it would creep towards the middle and then fly off to the other side making tiny adjustments.Back and forth I went, but it dawned on me that it wasn't even holding its calibration when I thought I was getting close, and looked at my Starrett 98 and it was WAY off.  Thats what I get for buying a cheap POS I guess. 

I hear what you are saying Mark, but I am very perplexed.

If I use a test bar (confirmed cylindrical over its length to the .00015" accuracy). and a DTI to align my lathe, I will cut a taper of AT LEAST .004" over 3.5 inches, 

If I align my lathe against the spindle, the taper is greatly reduced. .0015" over 4 inches, but then when I run my test bait is WAY off. Spinning the test bar at any given location shows no runout. 

Something is incredibly wrong here.


----------



## mksj

I do not get it either, unless your chuck mount was out. I would check that when you have the test bar in and rotate the spindle that the reading TIR should be nil, check the spindle mount that it is also running true. End of the day is that it cuts true over at least 6-8" unsupported with larger diameter stock. I am not sure about using a test indicator for this application as any change in height when sweeping the bar would have a large impact on the reading.

Getting a good precision level sure helps with setting everything up, lots of crap out there and anything decent is 2-3X prices from several years ago. This one popped up when I did a search, VIS are quite good for the price. Know nothing about this listing service.








						Precision Machinist Level - $100 In Baxter TN - LSN
					

VIS 12" Precision/Machinist Level-0.0005"/10"-Made in Poland




					www.lsn.com


----------



## Larry$

mksj said:


> VIS are quite good for the price


I've had that same level for quite a long time. Seems very good.


----------



## Christianstark

mksj said:


> I do not get it either, unless your chuck mount was out. I would check that when you have the test bar in and rotate the spindle that the reading TIR should be nil, check the spindle mount that it is also running true. End of the day is that it cuts true over at least 6-8" unsupported with larger diameter stock. I am not sure about using a test indicator for this application as any change in height when sweeping the bar would have a large impact on the reading.
> 
> Getting a good precision level sure helps with setting everything up, lots of crap out there and anything decent is 2-3X prices from several years ago. This one popped up when I did a search, VIS are quite good for the price. Know nothing about this listing service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Precision Machinist Level - $100 In Baxter TN - LSN
> 
> 
> VIS 12" Precision/Machinist Level-0.0005"/10"-Made in Poland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lsn.com


Just spoke to the seller. He is figuring out shipping and will be buying that level. Starting from scratch, my plan is to level the lathe, align the head stock using a normal Dial indicator (or 2) with flat nosed tips, and then Rollies dad the rest of the way by shimming the bed (instead of adjusting the leveling feet).

Shimming the bed was the suggested way of doing this per John at PM support.

A few other changes would be to cut and hone a sharp HSS blank for the 2 ring job, I was using carbide, albeit the honed carbide for aluminum as that also cuts steel well with light cuts. PM said to use HSS.

The saga shall continue!


----------



## davidpbest

I’m starting to wonder if the MT5 taper inside the spindle is out of alignment with the surfaces that the chuck registers against when it’s tightened down.  Maybe you’ve already tested that and I’m not picking it up in your workflow of tests.   I had the headstock completely off the bed of my 1340 for repainting. So I had no choice but to realign it.  But I first got the bedways completely level and confirmed no twist or dips, then aligned the head with the MT5 test bar, then confirmed everything with Rollie’s dad method using a 3” diameter x 16”  bar of 1018 found on eBay.  Then I set about dialing in the tailstock.  The headstock alignment was the most frustrating because of the crude adjustment points.  Having a reliable and sensitive level (pristine Starrett 199 I found for $400 on eBay in 2004) was paramount for me getting my lathe dialed in.


----------



## Christianstark

Just some interesting measurements I took recently to see if I can level the machine using the ways, or the apron/cross slide. Look how off the apron is to the ways. Is this normal? I ensured on blocks. were resting on anything like a ball oiler, and I ensured all 1-2-3 blocks gave the same readings with level flipped 180.


----------



## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> I’m starting to wonder if the MT5 taper inside the spindle is out of alignment with the surfaces that the chuck registers against when it’s tightened down.  Maybe you’ve already tested that and I’m not picking it up in your workflow of tests.   I had the headstock completely off the bed of my 1340 for repainting. So I had no choice but to realign it.  But I first got the bedways completely level and confirmed no twist or dips, then aligned the head with the MT5 test bar, then confirmed everything with Rollie’s dad method using a 3” diameter x 16”  bar of 1018 found on eBay.  Then I set about dialing in the tailstock.  The headstock alignment was the most frustrating because of the crude adjustment points.  Having a reliable and sensitive level (pristine Starrett 199 I found for $400 on eBay in 2004) was paramount for me getting my lathe dialed in.


I spun the spindle by hand with the test bar. less than a .001" wobble at the end, and it shrinks as you get closer to the chuck. I would think if the MT5 was off axially or off center to rotation that would be picked up at some point. I must be doing something wrong, but the plan is to start fresh with leveling --> Head --> twist --> tail as soon as I get back from the holidays, and as soon as I have the new to me master precision level Mark linked above.

All this being said, I have not been methodical with my work flows, and have been proceeding with an unusable level what loses calibration by just looking at it wrong. Once I get the new level, I will be much more methodical and will document it better in case I am doing something wrong...which I HAVE to be because I can not in my wildest dreams imagine what would cause what I have measured. Slowing down, and keeping it simple moving forward.


----------



## davidpbest

Have you put an indicator on the carriage - reaching out about 10" and down to the bedways, and run the carriage back and forth?  I have seen situations where a badly adjusted gib on the back of the carriage or the handwheel that engages the rack along from front of the bedway casting has caused the carriage to lift.   And have you checked the bedways for flatness with a straight edge and feeler gages to ensure it isn't shaped like a banana?


----------



## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> I spun the spindle by hand with the test bar. less than a .001" wobble at the end, and it shrinks as you get closer to the chuck. I would think if the MT5 was off axially or off center to rotation that would be picked up at some point. I must be doing something wrong, but the plan is to start fresh with leveling --> Head --> twist --> tail as soon as I get back from the holidays, and as soon as I have the new to me master precision level Mark linked above.


I can imagine a scenario where the mounting taper for the chuck alignment was machined out of axial concentricity from the internal taper.  Not likely, but certainly possible.  That would put your chuck axis out of alignment from the test bar in the MT5 internal taper.  Is your chuck/backplate configured such that you could mount the chuck and the test bar at the same time?  If so, you could check the alignment of them both in one setup and see if they agree by indicating to the chuck jaw internal faces.


----------



## Christianstark

I think I know what is going on. My spindle/ways are NOT perpendicular with my apron/cross slide, nor are they level either.

The taper is likely a combination of twisted bed ways, but the apron and cross slide thing is measurable. I will document everything when I get back to it with reliable tools.


----------



## mksj

Christianstark said:


> I think I know what is going on. My spindle/ways are NOT perpendicular with my apron/cross slide, nor are they level either.


This recently came up in another posting, they are not parallel to each other, it makes no difference as long as you use the same method/position  to measure if there is any bed twist. I prefer to use 123 blocks on the flats of the ways, in particular when using a longer level that will not fit on the cross slide.








						New PM-1236T Lathe has arrived
					

It is probably alright for most lathe work. But I have a milling vise that I want to use on the lathe as a backup milling option. I can't do accurate milling with a vise that runs downhill with respect to the spindle. I have reached out to P.M. for a solution. They are contacting the factory.  I...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## Christianstark

mksj said:


> This recently came up in another posting, they are not parallel to each other, it makes no difference as long as you use the same method/position  to measure if there is any bed twist. I prefer to use 123 blocks on the flats of the ways, in particular when using a longer level that will not fit on the cross slide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New PM-1236T Lathe has arrived
> 
> 
> It is probably alright for most lathe work. But I have a milling vise that I want to use on the lathe as a backup milling option. I can't do accurate milling with a vise that runs downhill with respect to the spindle. I have reached out to P.M. for a solution. They are contacting the factory.  I...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hobby-machinist.com


I have been doing some reading on the cross slide not being perpendicular to the spindle as well past few hours. The one thing that troubles me is that most have said that the lathes are set up to give a slight concave or dish to facing cuts to make faced parts fit tighter. I get that. What I am seeing is I will be getting about .004"  over about 7" CONVEX cuts when I align my head stock again.I guess hobby machining is a balancing act of compromise, huh?


----------



## mksj

I would go back and read the full thread, I am not aware of any manufacturer where that would be intentionally the case. I would start over when you get a precision level, then check the headstock alignment using Dollie's dads method to start with and then you can do a light skim cut on some 2" diameter aluminum stock say out to 6-8" or do a two ring test. You can do some final tweaking if needed. A skim cut facing a disc should measure the same across the face, there is no dishing in the cut. I am not sure why your test bar is so far off, but your headstock alignment would appear to be way out of alignment at this point.









						Cross slide not square to spindle
					

Hi Guys, I have a 10” Atlas lathe will a milling attachment. I had a fly cutter in the spindle, when taking a standard flat cut across a piece of metal in the vice I noticed the back rotation of the tool was taking a significant trailing cut. The tool was set at about a 3” diameter.  From this I...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Take a look at this old post, this is how we checked the headstock alignment on an Acra 1640TE








						NEW ACRA 1640TE
					

Come on Paco, spin the chuck by hand, we need to see chips. lol There's always a couple of little glitches when you dive into a project like this.   Greg




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Have you put an indicator on the carriage - reaching out about 10" and down to the bedways, and run the carriage back and forth?  I have seen situations where a badly adjusted gib on the back of the carriage or the handwheel that engages the rack along from front of the bedway casting has caused the carriage to lift.   And have you checked the bedways for flatness with a straight edge and feeler gages to ensure it isn't shaped like a banana?


So I checked this out just now. Mag base on flat side and DTI on flat side, No runout. Stayed 0 the entire run. Mag base and DTI on prismatic side, sweeping top of prismatic 0 runout. Mag on peak and DTI reaching across to flat. 0 run out.

but...

Mag on flat side of carriage, and reaching across to the top of the peak, I can measure .001" over the closest 12" to the headstock. This could be contributing to the taper closer to the head stock for sure. Would account for some of the .004" diameter discrepancy. About half I recon. Another factor could be deflection. The unsupported tail stock side is larger in diameter than the cut at the chuck.

Here's a question regarding twist. If I discover twist close to the head stock (Where the machine is most rigid I assume) would I make small adjustments to the head stock side (4 bolts on that side to level) to try to cant the headstock to force correct the bed? I feel like if I adjusted at the tail side, I would need to move the bed significantly to correct a one thou issue in the last 12 inches of travel to the head stock.

@davidpbest  and @mksj Just wanted to pause for a moment and thank you for all your input here. Above and beyond.


----------



## jaek

Do you have a set of instructions for lathe alignment that you are following? A methodical approach helps immensely with this kind of thing - measure and adjust one thing at a time.

It's possible to measure twist in the lathe bed directly without a precision level if you have a straight-edge and a v-block. Put the v-block on your prismatic ways at one end of the bed and a 1-2-3 block on the flat ways at the other end of the bed, span them with a straightedge, and measure the height of a point on that straightedge. Then flip everything around so the straightedge goes diagonal the other way and measure the height of the same point. If the bed is not twisted, the height will be the same. If the heights differ, you can shim or level the appropriate feet.

The pictures are measuring the tailstock ways but you should measure the carriage ways. Should probably also use a dowel pin on the v-block vs a random chunk of aluminum, use an adjustable parallel to make the v-block and 1-2-3 block the same height, and use a straightedge with a nicer surface finish.


----------



## Christianstark

Just a side note, something I have thought about while leveling the lathe the first time around, and then this most recent time. I kinda wish the lathe was HEAVIER. I find that adjusting the feet will occasionally lift other load point to where it is not touching. Say like jacking up the front tail side I will sometimes find the rear tail side is lifted off its pad.

If I had this to do over again, I would drill and anchor studs into my slab, and then make the adjustments on those studs, with a nut above and a nut below the stand so I can (once very close) force the bed to do what I want it to do, even if gravity is too weak to do it. The current system now, where the stand is threaded for adjustments, and then a locking nut is beneath the stand itself is a mid of a PITA. I wonder if I put the Jam-nut on the wrong side of the equation now. trying to lock the adjustment actually lifts that point due to slop in the threads. and each threaded point is slightly different. Therefore you spend hours making slight adjustments to level the lathe and minimize twist, and when you finally get the Bubble where you want it and try to lock it down with the Jam nut, you move the lathe.

I may make this change before I start this whole process again. If nothing else, I imagine it would help with rigidity overall.


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## mksj

A new lathe you should not have bed twist, if you are forcing it into a pretzel by anchoring it then you are doing something wrong. The main times I see the need to twist the bed has more to do with wear and/or the lathe was previously not leveled correctly and took a set. Leveling is a simple process, I use the inside 4 legs to level the machine and then bring down the two outer legs at the headstock. If there appears to be some set to the bed causing it to twist, adjust the feet and let it settle. You have a small lathe, it is new, you should have no bed twist nor require it to cut true. Setting up a lathe one needs to follow a step wise sequential approach, determine if there is any issues and fix them by determining the root of the problem. Seems like you are in a loop and just compounding the problem, possible this is an issue with the measurement devices you are using. Bottom line is you should not need to twist the bed to cut straight on a new lathe.


----------



## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> Just a side note, something I have thought about while leveling the lathe the first time around, and then this most recent time. I kinda wish the lathe was HEAVIER. I find that adjusting the feet will occasionally lift other load point to where it is not touching. Say like jacking up the front tail side I will sometimes find the rear tail side is lifted off its pad.
> 
> If I had this to do over again, I would drill and anchor studs into my slab, and then make the adjustments on those studs, with a nut above and a nut below the stand so I can (once very close) force the bed to do what I want it to do, even if gravity is too weak to do it. The current system now, where the stand is threaded for adjustments, and then a locking nut is beneath the stand itself is a mid of a PITA. I wonder if I put the Jam-nut on the wrong side of the equation now. trying to lock the adjustment actually lifts that point due to slop in the threads. and each threaded point is slightly different. Therefore you spend hours making slight adjustments to level the lathe and minimize twist, and when you finally get the Bubble where you want it and try to lock it down with the Jam nut, you move the lathe.
> 
> I may make this change before I start this whole process again. If nothing else, I imagine it would help with rigidity overall.


This flexi-stand behavior would drive me absolutely crazy.  Makes me really thankful I built *my own stand*, and in the process made it heavy and rigid (with substantial drawer cabinets), and brought the leveling points up to waist height.


----------



## Christianstark

mksj said:


> A new lathe you should not have bed twist, if you are forcing it into a pretzel by anchoring it then you are doing something wrong. The main times I see the need to twist the bed has more to do with wear and/or the lathe was previously not leveled correctly and took a set. Leveling is a simple process, I use the inside 4 legs to level the machine and then bring down the two outer legs at the headstock. If there appears to be some set to the bed causing it to twist, adjust the feet and let it settle. You have a small lathe, it is new, you should have no bed twist nor require it to cut true. Setting up a lathe one needs to follow a step wise sequential approach, determine if there is any issues and fix them by determining the root of the problem. Seems like you are in a loop and just compounding the problem, possible this is an issue with the measurement devices you are using. Bottom line is you should not need to twist the bed to cut straight on a new lathe.


Agreed. I am mainly just thinking philosophically about having it anchored to a floor instead of sitting on rough castings and bolts that cant be locked in place without additional wrangling.

I think a bad instrument started my loop, but moving forward I want to do things in a way that are methodical and as close to bullet-proof as I can so I can rest assured I never need to do it again, or at least not have to do it again for a good long time, and have it result in a more rigid platform to boot.


----------



## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> Agreed. I am mainly just thinking philosophically about having it anchored to a floor instead of sitting on rough castings and bolts that cant be locked in place without additional wrangling.
> 
> I think a bad instrument started my loop, but moving forward I want to do things in a way that are methodical and as close to bullet-proof as I can so I can rest assured I never need to do it again, or at least not have to do it again for a good long time, and have it result in a more rigid platform to boot.


Several on this forum have bolted their lathe to the concrete slab.  I'm not sure if you got the sheet-metal stand or the cast iron version, but you might want to have a look at this thread.  The vibration issues were a motivating factor in PM coming up with the cast iron stand a few years after this post.









						How Are You Mounting Your Pm1340gt Lathe?
					

I want to hear from the owners of the PM1340GT lathe, how are you setting your lathe on the floor? There are several possibilities using the standard stand supplied with the lathe. The factory designed the stand with 4 threaded holes and supplied bolts to be used to level the lathe and then use...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## Christianstark

So I decided th just do my idea. Took a couple of hours but first indication trying to shake the lathe and it’s much more rigid. These are 5/8 x 6” wedge anchors. The bottom nut and washer tightens up the stud, and the lathe stand (unthreaded part) is sandwiched in place with a nut and washer below, and one above. My back is killing me, but I got it in roughly. I raised the head side doing alternate hjacking and blocking of the inner and outer leveling feet, and just lifted the tail side with a Jack. Rested both sides on a 2.5’ length of solid 6160 3”x 5” bar, lubed with way oil. I could then slide the lathe out of the way to drill holes and hammer in the anchors, and cleared the top of the studs by about 1/2” then I lowered each side down onto the anchors, and topped off with another washer and nut.

Old way. Lathe rocked and shimmied pretty easily. Not heavy enough for 6 jack points.





New way. I can already tell this is rock solid. If vibration becomes an issue I can mount some hard rubber or other dampening material, but I don't think I will need to.




Left the top nuts loose. Will level it tomorrow with a Starrett 98, and then fine tune it Saturday with the VIS Master Precision. After that I am headed up to the lake for Christmas. Maybe my back and leg muscles will have recovered by New Year!


davidpbest said:


> Several on this forum have bolted their lathe to the concrete slab.  I'm not sure if you got the sheet-metal stand or the cast iron version, but you might want to have a look at this thread.  The vibration issues were a motivating factor in PM coming up with the cast iron stand a few years after this post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Are You Mounting Your Pm1340gt Lathe?
> 
> 
> I want to hear from the owners of the PM1340GT lathe, how are you setting your lathe on the floor? There are several possibilities using the standard stand supplied with the lathe. The factory designed the stand with 4 threaded holes and supplied bolts to be used to level the lathe and then use...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## B2

Hi @Christianstark ,

Your story had made me thinking back to my own leveling....

I agree with Mark, while there could be errors, the lathe rails should have been made very well at the factory and so should be straight.  To have this metal get a twisted set in it later is difficult to believe unless it has really been abused or the metal had stresses built it before it was machined and then stresses were later relaxed somehow (excessive heat. vibration, etc).  Metals are excellent linear spring materials and do not take a deformation unless they are pushed beyond the deformation limits. 

However, I noticed when leveling (flattening.. as my floor has a considerable pitch) my PM1440GT, which should be even heavier than your 1340, that there was a difference in the lift of the two tail stock stand leveling screws  ... it is certainly not awful, but is perceptible..  So naturally I too ask why?  However, I have done nothing serious about yet.     (I viewed this stiffness as probably good as it means that the lathe bed is really stout and it is not easily twisted ... or, if you believe it is bad, untwisted.)   However, it was viable to twist the bed with the leveling screws so the bed and stand weight must be enough to affect things somewhat.  

David's comment about leveling off of his home made stand top raises a question.  Are the PM stands heavy enough to actually influence the lathe bed twist?  Suppose for a second that the bottom bolt hole surface of the lathe is not parallel and flat WRT to the lathe rails or that the stand surface is not square to the sides and bottom of the stand.  Then bolting the lathe bottom holes tightly to the stand would put the stand at a twist angle relative to the rails causing a torque (twisting action) on the rails/bed.  Given the geometry this should be mild, but so should a slightly uneven/level floor,  but it still would exist.  Adjusting the stand leveling feet would tend to remove this torque, but one would not adjust them the same amount to do so.   Under a severe case one could have one of the two stand feet touching the floor to try to remove this stand induced torque! As David did, we should all probably be leveling at the top of the stand rather than at the floor! Or maybe even both places.  

By the way, I spent a lot of time measuring the stands for the 1440GT when I was putting them on casters.  Basically they are a heavy sheet metal which has been bent/folded to 90 degrees at each corner to form a rectangular cylinder and the ends are welded together. After this, holes and plates are cut and welded to and into it.   They are pretty good, but nothing precision about them and they are not square so I see no reason that their surfaces would be flat/parallel/perpendicular to the lathe rails at the bolt holes for the lathe. 

 If this thought is correct, then the stand weight/torque twists the lathe rails and your anchors are then being used to try to create a counter torque to removed the stand induced twist! 

If your initial thought that the lathe is just not heavy enough then should we not be able to just add weights to the lathe bed (sort of what you are doing by anchoring)?  And would it not be possible to just remove the tail stock to test this weight concept somewhat?

Leveling should not be all this difficult nor take a lot of time.  I put my lathe on casters so I could pull it out to work on it, to clean around it, or to change the oil catching matting that I put under it.   Each time I have to lift (or lower) the lathe by the leveling feet to get it off/on/off the casters.

By the way, your talking about the struggles to  move your lathe reminds me that a good pry bar is very handy.    I purchased this one, that has steel rollers with ball bearings, at the end.  Says 3 tonne on it but I don't even have anything that big to try to lift.    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SHL3H7L     It works great to move things or even to just lift them a bit to adjust shims, blocks or leveling feet.     Most recently I use it to just move my refrigerator-freezer over a  bit to better clear a cabinet.

Dave L.


----------



## Christianstark

Hey Dave!

Most of what I was discussing earlier in this post about "forcing" the bed to do what I want it to was more of an IF and not a when. I mostly suspect when I get the master precision level tomorrow, the final tweaking will go relatively easy. This morning I leveled the lathe with the Starrett 98. What had taken me an hour in the past, took me 10 minutes with the new system, and I was able to lock each point into place with minimal fuss. Bottom line is it was so much easier with the anchors, jack nuts, and top nuts. It was also much easier this way to one tune, now that I am actually moving what I want to move, and able to repeatably lock it into place. For the fine leveling I expect it to take no time once I get the level calibrated. The other level was utter crap. I literally threw it in the trash.

A side effect of what I did was now the lathe seems so much more rigid. The whole lathe used to shake a bit if something was chucked eccentrically, and I could shake the lathe and it would wiggle a bit on the stand. Now that the lathe is anchored, it is orders of magnitude more solid. I am hoping this carries through once I am spinning stock, but worst case scenario is I have to put it back on its factory feet, and I am out $52 in materials, 3 hours, and 1 Aleve.

Here is how she sits this morning. If the rigidity holds, and there aren't any unforeseen consequences, I am absolutely doing this to my 833TV next. This house was built in 1960, and there is over 1/2" of floor slope from left to right, and front to back.








B2 said:


> Hi @Christianstark ,
> 
> Your story had made me thinking back to my own leveling....
> 
> I agree with Mark, while there could be errors, the lathe rails should have been made very well at the factory and so should be straight.  To have this metal get a twisted set in it later is difficult to believe unless it has really been abused or the metal had stresses built it before it was machined and then stresses were later relaxed somehow (excessive heat. vibration, etc).  Metals are excellent linear spring materials and do not take a deformation unless they are pushed beyond the deformation limits.
> 
> However, I noticed when leveling (flattening.. as my floor has a considerable pitch) my PM1440GT, which should be even heavier than your 1340, that there was a difference in the lift of the two tail stock stand leveling screws  ... it is certainly not awful, but is perceptible..  So naturally I too ask why?  However, I have done nothing serious about yet.     (I viewed this stiffness as probably good as it means that the lathe bed is really stout and it is not easily twisted ... or, if you believe it is bad, untwisted.)   However, it was viable to twist the bed with the leveling screws so the bed and stand weight must be enough to affect things somewhat.
> 
> David's comment about leveling off of his home made stand top raises a question.  Are the PM stands heavy enough to actually influence the lathe bed twist?  Suppose for a second that the bottom bolt hole surface of the lathe is not parallel and flat WRT to the lathe rails or that the stand surface is not square to the sides and bottom of the stand.  Then bolting the lathe bottom holes tightly to the stand would put the stand at a twist angle relative to the rails causing a torque (twisting action) on the rails/bed.  Given the geometry this should be mild, but so should a slightly uneven/level floor,  but it still would exist.  Adjusting the stand leveling feet would tend to remove this torque, but one would not adjust them the same amount to do so.   Under a severe case one could have one of the two stand feet touching the floor to try to remove this stand induced torque! As David did, we should all probably be leveling at the top of the stand rather than at the floor! Or maybe even both places.
> 
> By the way, I spent a lot of time measuring the stands for the 1440GT when I was putting them on casters.  Basically they are a heavy sheet metal which has been bent/folded to 90 degrees at each corner to form a rectangular cylinder and the ends are welded together. After this, holes and plates are cut and welded to and into it.   They are pretty good, but nothing precision about them and they are not square so I see no reason that their surfaces would be flat/parallel/perpendicular to the lathe rails at the bolt holes for the lathe.
> 
> If this thought is correct, then the stand weight/torque twists the lathe rails and your anchors are then being used to try to create a counter torque to removed the stand induced twist!
> 
> If your initial thought that the lathe is just not heavy enough then should we not be able to just add weights to the lathe bed (sort of what you are doing by anchoring)?  And would it not be possible to just remove the tail stock to test this weight concept somewhat?
> 
> Leveling should not be all this difficult nor take a lot of time.  I put my lathe on casters so I could pull it out to work on it, to clean around it, or to change the oil catching matting that I put under it.   Each time I have to lift (or lower) the lathe by the leveling feet to get it off/on/off the casters.
> 
> By the way, your talking about the struggles to  move your lathe reminds me that a good pry bar is very handy.    I purchased this one, that has steel rollers with ball bearings, at the end.  Says 3 tonne on it but I don't even have anything that big to try to lift.    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SHL3H7L     It works great to move things or even to just lift them a bit to adjust shims, blocks or leveling feet.     Most recently I use it to just move my refrigerator-freezer over a  bit to better clear a cabinet.
> 
> Dave L.


----------



## B2

Hi @Christianstark ,

Looks nice!  

My house was built in 1930 ... on clay.  It is heavy with substantial walls (outside walls are ~ 11-12" thick via tile with bricks on the outside, lots of thick plaster on the tile and plaster and lath for interior walls, and a big slate roof).  Fortunately they put big wide footers under the walls and posts and the concrete they poured for the floor seems to be stronger than today's concrete.  Clay is probably the worst material to put a foundation on so over the years it has moved a lot ... but slowly.  The floor slopes, but my guess is that most of it was intentional for drainage.  So the drop from one end of my lathe to the other is about an inch.  I could have poured more concrete, but what is the point.  I just used a little longer bolts for the feet.   

In fact, my mill location is also pitched and I leveled my PM940M-CNC-VS mill.  However, after running it for a while with the flood coolant system I decided to actually pitch the mill stand so that the coolant would drain back down to the pump without their being a big puddle surrounding the mill on  its stand.    

Dave L.


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## Christianstark

The 1960 slab was the hardest masonry drilling I have done in my life. They don’t even make concrete like they used to…



B2 said:


> Hi @Christianstark ,
> 
> Looks nice!
> 
> My house was built in 1930 ... on clay.  It is heavy with substantial walls (outside walls are ~ 11-12" thick via tile with bricks on the outside, lots of thick plaster on the tile and plaster and lath for interior walls, and a big slate roof).  Fortunately they put big wide footers under the walls and posts and the concrete they poured for the floor seems to be stronger than today's concrete.  Clay is probably the worst material to put a foundation on so over the years it has moved a lot ... but slowly.  The floor slopes, but my guess is that most of it was intentional for drainage.  So the drop from one end of my lathe to the other is about an inch.  I could have poured more concrete, but what is the point.  I just used a little longer bolts for the feet.
> 
> In fact, my mill location is also pitched and I leveled my PM940M-CNC-VS mill.  However, after running it for a while with the flood coolant system I decided to actually pitch the mill stand so that the coolant would drain back down to the pump without their being a big puddle surrounding the mill on  its stand.
> 
> Dave L.


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> The 1960 slab was the hardest masonry drilling I have done in my life. They don’t even make concrete like they used to…


Hahahaha.  Oh, you should have met my former wife.   ROFLMAO.


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## tq60

Also of note, the lathe needs to settle in.

You are bending a large chunk of cast iron.

Stiing on a floor, everything can and will move.

Give it a week and recheck.

If it moves some adjust a little.

Repeat until it stops moving and is correct. 

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## Christianstark

Tired after the last few days, but let’s just say that the old master precision level is exactly the POS I thought it was. The new level worked like a charm. Took 10 minutes to calibrate it, and less than an hour to get it to what I consider close enough.


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## Just for fun

Sounds good man.

Merry Christmas !


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## Christianstark

Just for fun said:


> Sounds good man.
> 
> Merry Christmas !




Merry Christmas!


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## Christianstark

So I leveled everything up, and dialed the head into tram. 

Have not had a chance to do the 2 collar yet, as I had some non-precision parts to make for my quick Jack. My lathe is now cutting a convex face. These parts are about 3” at the base, and I can spin them like a top.

My cross slide isn’t perpendicular to the spindle.


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## Christianstark

Mounted up what I thought was a 2” bar of aluminum, faced, flipped, then tapped in to within 1 thou runout in the 3 jaw. I’m guessing it’s about 12” stuck out. Took very light cuts. Whole bar cleaned up. My micrometer wouldn’t fit as it was a 2.25” bar so I measured at the jaw, then about 8” from the jaw. No detectable taper with digital calipers (igaging)

Great news, even though my facing cuts are about .001” convex at 3”. 

I’ll take this win.


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## mksj

I still believe your headstock is not aligned if you get any dishing on a cross slide cut, may take some additional work. maybe try to mount up an 8" chuck and check the distance at the front and back with a dial indicator to check if it is square to the cross slide.


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## Christianstark

mksj said:


> I still believe your headstock is not aligned if you get any dishing on a cross slide cut, may take some additional work. maybe try to mount up an 8" chuck and check the distance at the front and back with a dial indicator to check if it is square to the cross slide.



I tried to align the spindle to the cross slide. If I do that, my x is off. I honestly believe my apron was not made exactly perpendicular to the ways and cross slide


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> I tried to align the spindle to the cross slide. If I do that, my x is off. I honestly believe my apron was not made exactly perpendicular to the ways and cross slide


If you are interested in digging deeper into this, DM me.  Most lathes are set up for the cross slide to move towards the chuck when advanced - but at a rate of 0.0005" over 6" or more.


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## Christianstark

My issue in 3 videos.


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## Rodneyk

On a silly side note, this weekend I decided to get more organized with my tools and as part of that I was making sure all related part of tools were in places that make more sense (storage wise) when I came to the sudden (and erroneous) realization that I had one set of outside jaws that fit my 8" 3-jaw chuck on my dividing head but did not have the jaws for my 6" 3-jaw or 8" 4-jaw chuck. In a panic thinking they were stored in some place that made sense to me 2 year ago, but baffeled me today I set out at doing a deep cleaning of everything in my shop.
Well a few days later, and realizing that I really needed to do this sooner it finally dawned on me that I did not get those jaws for my 2 lathe chucks because 1) the 3-jaw chuck has bolt on reversable jaws rather than jaws with a scroll machined in the Jaw. 2) the 4-Jaw chuck (which I have not needed yet for what I do in the lathe) the Jaws are reversable because they use big acme threads and not the spiral scroll of the 3 jaw.
I feel silly, but hey at least it forces me to organize my tools better.


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## mksj

Quick question, when you put the test bar in and slowly rotate the spindle does the reading stay at "0", if so then I agree that the cross slide is not running true. I would contact PM/QMT as to suggestions and replacement if needed. The variance of 0.002" across the spindle with the head alignment bar running true is not acceptable.


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## Christianstark

mksj said:


> Quick question, when you put the test bar in and slowly rotate the spindle does the reading stay at "0", if so then I agree that the cross slide is not running true. I would contact PM/QMT as to suggestions and replacement if needed. The variance of 0.002" across the spindle with the head alignment bar running true is not acceptable.



Yes. I can rotate the test bar with minimal fluctuations


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## Christianstark

mksj said:


> Quick question, when you put the test bar in and slowly rotate the spindle does the reading stay at "0", if so then I agree that the cross slide is not running true. I would contact PM/QMT as to suggestions and replacement if needed. The variance of 0.002" across the spindle with the head alignment bar running true is not acceptable.


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## davidpbest

Put your indicator on the face of the spindle nose and also on the outer diameter of the nose (as shown in this photo) and run the machine slowly again to see if either of those surfaces show runout.  A camlock chuck should register to those surfaces, not the surface that the indicator is currently against in this photo.


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Put your indicator on the face of the spindle nose and also on the outer diameter of the nose (as shown in this photo) and run the machine slowly again to see if either of those surfaces show runout.  A camlock chuck should register to those surfaces, not the surface that the indicator is currently against in this photo.
> 
> View attachment 431941



I’ve done that. All good there.


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> I’ve done that. All good there.


Ok.  This may sound weird, but have you indicated to the center of the clamping surface of the chuck jaws and swept the on Z-axis by moving the cross slide in/out toward the headstock?


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## davidpbest

davidpbest said:


> Ok.  This may sound weird, but have you indicated to the center of the clamping surface of the chuck jaws and swept the on Z-axis by moving the cross slide in/out toward the headstock?


If all that checks out then I agree that the cross slide is not moving close enough to perpendicular to the spindle axis.  In that case, I would start focusing on the cross slide.  This could be a gib problem. If the gib taper doesn’t cause both surfaces of the saddle to ride against the dovetail of the carriage, then the saddle can shift position as it’s moved across the X-axis.  Total PITA, but blue up the gib and check the imprint to the dovetail.  I assume you have already removed the apron-to-saddle gib and stoned it to remove burrs and check for flatness.  If not, then do that.


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Ok.  This may sound weird, but have you indicated to the center of the clamping surface of the chuck jaws and swept the on Z-axis by moving the cross slide in/out toward the headstock?


I would think that that points to the taper, but not to the face that the cross slide is moving away from the chuck as I crank in.

Since re-leveling and tramming, I have done Rolle's Dad and found no taper. 

I will check the cross slide gib for flatness next. I will also look at attempting to mount a DTI on the spindle, and testing distance to the spindle side dovetails. but I am not sure there is a good way to measure that.


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> I would think that that points to the taper, but not to the face that the cross slide is moving away from the chuck as I crank in.
> 
> Since re-leveling and tramming, I have done Rolle's Dad and found no taper.
> 
> I will check the cross slide gib for flatness next. I will also look at attempting to mount a DTI on the spindle, and testing distance to the spindle side dovetails. but I am not sure there is a good way to measure that.


I can certainly understand how the carriage could drift away from the spindle as it's advanced if the gib isn't fitting and adjusted properly.


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> I can certainly understand how the carriage could drift away from the spindle as it's advanced if the gib isn't fitting and adjusted properly.


Agreed.


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## Christianstark

In terms of Gib straightness, how straight is straight? My gib seems to have the sliding surface with a bulge in the center, and a more slight dish on the non sliding side.

If I put the non sliding side on my surface plate, I can slide a .0015 feeler gage under in the center.

If I put the sliding side down on my surface plate, it clicks if I touch the ends  Holding down one end allows me to slide a .006 feeler gage under the opposite end


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## mksj

The headstock side of the carriage is fixed, the gibs are on the tail stock side, if you can get access to the gib lock and can lock it on either side of the spindle to do your measurements, then alignment would be dictated by the front dovetail. In addition if you can mount a round flat plate in a chuck and sweep front to back and the taper is progressive (past the center point of the spindle) then it would indicate that the cross slide dovetail is not parallel to the head. You certainly have gone above and beyond trying to determine the problem, but at this point I would contact the manufacturer to move forward to resolve this problem.


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## Christianstark

mksj said:


> The headstock side of the carriage is fixed, the gibs are on the tail stock side, if you can get access to the gib lock and can lock it on either side of the spindle to do your measurements, then alignment would be dictated by the front dovetail. In addition if you can mount a round flat plate in a chuck and sweep front to back and the taper is progressive (past the center point of the spindle) then it would indicate that the cross slide dovetail is not parallel to the head. You certainly have gone above and beyond trying to determine the problem, but at this point I would contact the manufacturer to move forward to resolve this problem.


Locking the cross slide gib in both measuring positions, I am getting just over 1 thou difference in a CONVEX cutting bias.


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## Christianstark

PM has created a support ticket, and I have sent them links to the videos for diagnosis.


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## Christianstark

Not sure I’m convinced with the direction I’m getting but I’ll work through it and I have some ideas of my own to check. Short version, I was told to shim the tail stock side of the bed to remove the convex dish, then re-tram the spindle. Can’t see that fixing .002 over a 5” cut.


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## Just for fun

Thanks for the update.  I am of no help but paying close attention and learning.


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## Christianstark

Any thoughts on this?


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## davidpbest

That would cause the cutting tool to elevate and pull away from the spindle as the carriage is moved forward.  This could easily cause a facing cut to be convex.


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## Christianstark

And...






I am incredibly annoyed right now after my support call with PM/QMT. Wanted to put this here. Am I crazy for thinking. the combination of the lift on the head side and the dip on the tail side directly confirms why I am cutting a facing cut convex dish? If so, then am I crazy in believing that this should be addressed by the manufacturer BEFORE I try twisting the bed to fix?

I am thinking that because I am indicating from the spindle, to a fixed point on the cross slide that IF twist was responsible for my issues, that my reading here would stay at ZERO, since I am measuring a fixed point in space, and that point would remain zero even if the cross slide was sloping an inch every foot. This proves IMO that the cross slide is not co planar to itself as it travels down the ways.


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## jaek

You aren’t crazy for thinking that.

It’s also not crazy for the PM support people to want you to follow a structured debugging procedure before sending you replacement parts.

First rule of tech support is believe the user’s observations but never their conclusions.


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## davidpbest

Yea, what @jaek said.


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Yea, what @jaek said.


The suggestion was to adjust the head to remove the dishing. I get that if you are close...but I was getting 2 thou convex over less than 4 inches.

I did adjust the head at one point to where I would get a flat facing cut. The result was an 8 thou taper over less than 4 inches. Shimming the tail stock for that would be ridiculous.

You all have been great hanging in with me during this saga. I appreciate all of your inputs. I think today I am just a tad annoyed. I sent the videos over to QMC and Matt. I am hoping for some kind of solution that addresses the cross slide instead of accepting the cross slide as "it is what it is" and solving AROUND it.


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## davidpbest

Scratching my head here, thinking out loud.  With just those last two posted videos, the issue could be a misaligned head stock (spindle CL pointing upwast toward the tailstock), or bed twist (front tailstock end too low).  Your precision test bar alignment test seems to rule out headstock misalignment.  So it would be reasonable to assume it’s bed twist.  How that relates to the Rollie Dad dumbbell test you did causes me to sake my head in wonder.


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## Christianstark

davidpbest said:


> Scratching my head here, thinking out loud.  With just those last two posted videos, the issue could be a misaligned head stock (spindle CL pointing upwast toward the tailstock), or bed twist (front tailstock end too low).  Your precision test bar alignment test seems to rule out headstock misalignment.  So it would be reasonable to assume it’s bed twist.  How that relates to the Rollie Dad dumbbell test you did causes me to sake my head in wonder.


Was thinking the same David, but why would twisted bed ways manifest in a change in the cross slide being coplanar to itself throughout its travel. The DTI would stay at zero unless I was moving the carriage, and changing the pitch of the cross slides plane.

In other words, even if the cross slide was pitching up 5 degrees and in 5 degrees, that DTI shouldn't move as it is cranked in and out, as long as the cross slides plane is true.


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## davidpbest

The tool will lift and pull away from the spindle as its advanced forward with the cross slide behavior shown in the last two videos. The amount of pulling away is amplified by the fact that the tool is on a fulcrum arm (compound plus QCTP).


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## jaek

They probably watched this, and are starting with the easy things first. I think you are on the path to resolution.

Directly measuring the cross slide ways on the saddle for twist is easy enough using the crossed diagonals 1-2-3 block and straightedge approach from my earlier post. No need to mess with any other aspect of lathe alignment.


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## davidpbest

Put another way, as the cutting tool is advancing forward it is cocking to the side toward the tailstock, and pulling away from the part that is being faced off.


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## davidpbest

It is possible for the Rollie Dad cutting test to show acceptable results, while in fact the spindle axis is tilted and the bed twisted is such a way that the two alignment errors cancel out each other.  This is one reason I align the head first using a precision test bar seated in the spindle MT taper.


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## Ischgl99

Have you put the cross slide on a surface plate to see if the bottom is actually flat?  If the cross slide itself is twisted, that seems like it would give you the issues you are measuring while still giving you good results when checking the head stock alignment.


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## Christianstark

Good news. The saddle I think its the saddle?) Is ground basically beautifully.






The cross slide seems to be not nearly as good. It is tough to measure with a depth gauge, but I did my best. a good bit of fluctuations at any given position on the scraped bearing surfaces. Did my best. Also did a tap test on all 4 corners on a surface plate. Seems the piece had some stress in it when machined?


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## jaek

The tap test suggests that the bottom ways on the cross slide are not flat and coplanar. Do you have a way to measure how out of whack they are? Hi-spot blue, feeler gauges, indicator on a stand to see how much it moves when you tap it?

And at least a cross slide is easy to replace.


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## Ischgl99

I’m sorry to see my suspicion is correct, but on the bright side, your headstock is aligned


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## Lucas E

I'd return that machine and get your money back. I went through a similar ordeal with an improperly machined Y axis on my 833TV mill and spent months and hundreds of hours convincing them of the issue. They eventually agreed to change out the mill with a new one and I waited 7 months for that to arrive. When it arrived I made sure to inspect it thoroughly and found the column (nod) was out of square to the table .015" over 10". I sent them a video and their response was simply "I swear they move during shipping". No offer to fix or exchange it. I said i would re-shim the column just to get a working mill, and asked if they could send me some shims. They said they didn't have any and basically sent me to buy shims to fix a brand new (second time!) Machine.....


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## StevSmar

Parts certainly can shift after machining. I purchased a Drill Press and the table was noticeably concave. After several days of trying to level it using sandpaper (I didn’t know about surface grinding then…) I got a replacement part under warranty.

The machining marks on the table showed it was finished by a process which would have been unable to make the table concave, which leads to the conclusion that the part warped after manufacture.


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## skcncx

Lucas E said:


> I'd return that machine and get your money back. I went through a similar ordeal with an improperly machined Y axis on my 833TV mill and spent months and hundreds of hours convincing them of the issue. They eventually agreed to change out the mill with a new one and I waited 7 months for that to arrive. When it arrived I made sure to inspect it thoroughly and found the column (nod) was out of square to the table .015" over 10". I sent them a video and their response was simply "I swear they move during shipping". No offer to fix or exchange it. I said i would re-shim the column just to get a working mill, and asked if they could send me some shims. They said they didn't have any and basically sent me to buy shims to fix a brand new (second time!) Machine.....


I sure hope I have better luck with my 833TV mill that's ready very soon (supposedly) to be picked up.


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## Christianstark

Latest video. this shows the no gib fitment on the saddle.


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## Lucas E

StevSmar said:


> Parts certainly can shift after machining. I purchased a Drill Press and the table was noticeably concave. After several days of trying to level it using sandpaper (I didn’t know about surface grinding then…) I got a replacement part under warranty.
> 
> The machining marks on the table showed it was finished by a process which would have been unable to make the table concave, which leads to the conclusion that the part warped after manufacture.


Oh absolutely, it's extremely common, but should be caught and rejected by quality inspections if it happens. There are ways to mitigate movement by altering the manufacturing process like rough machining, stress relieving, and then final machining.


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## Christianstark

Lucas E said:


> Oh absolutely, it's extremely common, but should be caught and rejected by quality inspections if it happens. There are ways to mitigate movement by altering the manufacturing process like rough machining, stress relieving, and then final machining.


in my situation, I am not in the least bit opposed to doing some work to get things as precise as I can. I welcome it. Helps me learn my machine, and it is cathartic for me. But when I present evidence of a root cause, I want support in tackling the root cause. When a precision test bar is telling me the head is adjusted properly, I have a massive problem with someone telling me to adjust the head out of alignment so I can cut a flat face, and then shim the tail to cut a straight cylinder, when dealing with the cross slide will get me 90% of the way to happiness.


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## davidpbest

Christianstark said:


> in my situation, I am not in the least bit opposed to doing some work to get things as precise as I can. I welcome it. Helps me learn my machine, and it is cathartic for me. But when I present evidence of a root cause, I want support in tackling the root cause. When a precision test bar is telling me the head is adjusted properly, I have a massive problem with someone telling me to adjust the head out of alignment so I can cut a flat face, and then shim the tail to cut a straight cylinder, when dealing with the cross slide will get me 90% of the way to happiness.


I like your attitude.  I have always considered these lower end machines, even the ones from Taiwan, to be kind of "kits" with a lot of potential, and worthy of fine tuning if you want a tight accurate machine.  This is why I tear them down and do my own alignments and modifications as required.  When you get to a PM-1440TL lathe or an Acra LCM-50 mill at $15K+, the quality and QC upscaling is really evident - different league entirely.


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## Lucas E

davidpbest said:


> I like your attitude.  I have always considered these lower end machines, even the ones from Taiwan, to be kind of "kits" with a lot of potential, and worthy of fine tuning if you want a tight accurate machine.  This is why I tear them down and do my own alignments and modifications as required.  When you get to a PM-1440TL lathe or an Acra LCM-50 mill at $15K+, the quality and QC upscaling is really evident - different league entirely.


Unfortunately this is not how they are advertised by Precision Matthews.


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## Christianstark

Matt is ordering a new cross slide. Not sure how long that will take, but I can get by with what I have for now as I have plenty to do that does not require facing.


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## Rodneyk

Christianstark said:


> Any thoughts on this?


Remember those precision level must sit still for a while when taking readings.  Movement in any direction can cause the bubble to move as the fluid gains motion. I am NOT saying that this is what is happening, but just remember to let it sit for a while before reading the level...


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