# Curious to your thoughts . Please keep this un-political as per the forum rules .



## mmcmdl (Feb 5, 2020)

Your thoughts on re-instating vocational trades in high schools ? I found the trades as a way to succeed in life . I have to wonder if these were re-introduced back into the schools , would they be supported by industry or would their even be interest in these trades ? I know Pa and NY are very much promoting trade related careers . Md not so much . We seem to struggle with new hires . I see this as a good thing , but others may not . What are your views , concerns , comments . PLEASE ! Keep this un-political , as this is a friendly site , and any and all posts will be deleted .


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## DavidR8 (Feb 5, 2020)

I fully support bringing vocational trades back into high schools. 
I think that urbanization and a focus on high tech education has reduced the awareness that trades actually exist. 

Years ago I read a book written by Stanley Pollan "The Millionaire Next Door" It is a study of millionaires in the US. 
A few things stood out for me:
Most popular vehicle with US millionaires? Ford F-150 
Most common profession? Tradesperson.
'nuff said

Not that I'm saying money is the be all and end all.


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## Reddinr (Feb 5, 2020)

I'm very supportive of the idea.  Even just having some basic "shop" classes brought back would be nice.  When I went through HS, they had discontinued most machine shop (lathe, mill etc.) due to a combination of liability and lack of an experienced teacher.  

The production manager of my former company often complained about the lack of very basic knowledge of his new hires.  He ended up quizzing potential hires with difficult questions such as:  "Show me on this ruler 13/16 inch."  His informal statistic:  70% could not do it and roughly half that did answer correctly had to count up the 1/16's from zero vs. knowing what the different length marks meant.  I know this isn't the same thing but the question brought that back to mind.

In my small home-town, there is a vocational-technical school right beside the high school.  Many of the students do the basic high school classes at the HS and spend part of the day learning a trade at the "voc-tech".  Then, after HS graduation, their classes would continue at the vocational school.  It works and they have expanded to many other trades from mechanic training to medical office admin to welding to bloodletting (phlebotomy).

So, it exists in some places still.


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## kb58 (Feb 5, 2020)

I'm not sure that logic works. I own an F150, should I be a millionaire?


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## DavidR8 (Feb 5, 2020)

kb58 said:


> I'm not sure that logic works. I own an F150, should I be a millionaire?


It wasn't logic... just what he discovered in his research. Sadly I don't think the relationship is causal


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## ub27Rocks (Feb 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> It wasn't logic... just what he discovered in his research. Sadly I don't think the relationship is causal


With today's prices definitely not causal. Other research seems to point to Buick's as the vehicle of choice of frugal millionaires.

Re; The actual topic, apprenticeships in a long list of trades should be encouraged and actively recommended. Even more important is paying the apprentices a decent wage (I think some are treated a little more than slaves) and not having them under mandatory union control. They can make that choice later.


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## Cadillac (Feb 5, 2020)

I have two nephews in high school and one tells me about a class he takes which teaches him about cnc programming. They don’t have manual machines but they design program and build a project so I guess that’s good.
I know when I graduated in 96 my school was  fazing out shop classes. I had woodshop and mechanics which was getting familiar with engines and building cars and maint. Items. We had a full machine shop sitting idle that wasn’t offered couldn’t give a reason why. When I was in school they pushed college and didn’t give a lick for students that weren’t interested. Looking back I started in the carpentry trade right out of HS making 20 bucks a hr full time and kept moving up till I changed trades because I wanted a year round work no lay offs. I’ve never been unemployed and make good money no regrets.
 I’m in charge of hiring mechanics for my company and I can confirm that it is very hard to find anyone with mechanical knowledge. Even trying to get them to show up is a challenge then to work it’s asking to much for these snowflakes. Ihave better luck finding retired people and working them part time but that’s not a  long term solution. 
  While I have friends that went to college wasted their parents money maybe got a degree in something in debt got measly jobs not for what they went to college for and still cry about loan payments.
I think that not everyone is for college. I have friends in every trade and they make a dam good living. You get what you put into it also. I have coworkers that are content with showing up late not putting in any effort, cry about the other guy and wonder why they passed over come raises. You gotta want it to get it but they’re alittle younger than me about the age we’re they started with no one is wrong and everyone is a winner expect everything type.


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## benmychree (Feb 5, 2020)

I'm afraid that when we allowed cheap imports to dominate our country, that the party was (nearly) over, the potential jobs that were created and aided by school training are largely gone, and few teachers are being educated to bring it back, even if jobs were available; it is not going to be easy to un-ring the bell.  I personally went through the school shops, and subsequently apprenticeship in a shop that is long gone in a plant that is also long gone in the steel mill industry (ditto); no regrets on the path I followed.


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## mikey (Feb 5, 2020)

At the very least, there should be shop classes taught in high school. Wood shop, auto shop, metal shop - these were the courses that taught us which way to turn a screwdriver and how to change you oil or do your brakes. These classes teach self-reliance, not just shop.

As for vocational training in HS, I'm not sure they would do an adequate job of it. Perhaps vocational training in a Community College would be more appropriate. Sadly, most of this type of training is gone and what there is deals mostly with CNC. If industry is willing to back these schools and provide jobs for graduates then it might work. That's a big IF.


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## JimDawson (Feb 5, 2020)

Not everybody is mentally wired to go to college and get a degree in something that pays well.  The trades are a great way to have a career that provides a great income and is rewarding.  So yes, a road to that career path should be offered in high school, and post high school education.  Bring in retired tradesmen to run the programs.  My high school metal shop teacher was a retired machinist, worked out well for most who took his class.


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## jbobb1 (Feb 5, 2020)

I totally agree it should be in HS. When I was in Jr. High school (7th and 8th gr) we were required to take wood shop. We were given a project to complete by the end of the school year and was graded. Our teacher was great! He expected your best and taught us how to achieve it. In 9th grade he gave a friend and me the opportunity to run the "machine shop" which consisted of a old flat belt drive lathe, a Cincinnati shaper and a knee mill. Those school years are, what I believe, a foundation builder for me.


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## bakrch (Feb 5, 2020)

With regard to machining, specifically. If the trade were in better shape in the states, I would be all for it.

Job shops are the dominant business model,  and the wages just aren't good enough for me to feel comfortable with younger folks headed toward this career path.  Of course there are exceptions to this rule,  but most will need to depend on overtime to earn a decent wage. This is just the reality in such a competitive market.

If we are talking about passion for the trade, in general,  I would be all for it. 

I think most would be in for a shock when making the transition from vocational school to a paid position.  The majority of folks would likely find themselves working in an environment with rampant substance abuse and very few training opportunities.

Manual shops are largely dead,  and many cnc shops have a central programmer with operators who have little to no opportunity to advance.

Every time I poke my head out to interview for a new position, it saddens me how little things have changed in the past 24 years.

Call these anecdotes, but that is what I see out there.


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## C-Bag (Feb 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I fully support bringing vocational trades back into high schools.
> I think that urbanization and a focus on high tech education has reduced the awareness that trades actually exist.
> 
> Years ago I read a book written by Stanley Pollan "The Millionaire Next Door" It is a study of millionaires in the US.
> ...


Having never heard of the book and also astonished by the choice of ride I looked up when it was written and it was published in 1996. It had been "extensively researched for 20yrs" and as a guy who graduated in '72 that world and now are not even in the same galaxy. And '96 was before NAFTA and the whole way our economy works. When we went from goods and services to an information based economy and the mass exodus of manufacturing the tradesman became an independent contractor. The only guys I know who aren't just working stiffs are contractors. And the guys who work for them no longer have full time work and don't make what they used to make when they got prevailing wage. 

Every area is different and I think guys back east always made more than I ever did here. I have an AS in automotive and AS aircraft and had all my ASE tickets and an A&P license and when I applied for a job they said I was overqualified. All the schooling and $5 would get me a cup o' coffee. Actually working for a living means you get your hands dirty and the millionaires and billionaires of today do not get their hands dirty.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 5, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Having never heard of the book and also astonished by the choice of ride I looked up when it was written and it was published in 1996. It had been "extensively researched for 20yrs" and as a guy who graduated in '72 that world and now are not even in the same galaxy. And '96 was before NAFTA and the whole way our economy works. When we went from goods and services to an information based economy and the mass exodus of manufacturing the tradesman became an independent contractor. The only guys I know who aren't just working stiffs are contractors. And the guys who work for them no longer have full time work and don't make what they used to make when they got prevailing wage.
> 
> Every area is different and I think guys back east always made more than I ever did here. I have an AS in automotive and AS aircraft and had all my ASE tickets and an A&P license and when I applied for a job they said I was overqualified. All the schooling and $5 would get me a cup o' coffee. Actually working for a living means you get your hands dirty and the millionaires and billionaires of today do not get their hands dirty.



I completely agree that there’s been massive change since the book was researched. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## middle.road (Feb 5, 2020)

We need vocational schools, and I for one think that it would be best to have it in place when the kids are in jr. high at least.

I had 'shop' classes from the 7th grade on. Wood, carpentry, basic metal, small engines, auto/advanced auto, and drafting/engineering.
Took all that I could up into Sr. year. Unfortunately even in the 1970's the advance metal working classes had been mothballed.
Had a fantastic metal shop just sitting there gathering dust the entire four years I was there.

The focus (as mentioned above) has been directed at getting students into collage.
When my oldest son was in high school early 2000's I couldn't get him into Computer Technology nor any 'shop' type classes.
University, University, University...  He didn't want nor need to take French...

They've shutdown all the vocational training in the districts around here.
I've been to (5) high schools in the area and it's a crying shame to see 'shop' facilities that have been shuttered and used for storage.
And to top it off in a couple they ripped out everything down to the bare walls. Not to mention selling off everything.

Then a few years ago it dawned on the 'educators' (I'm glad those Phd's are good for something) that maybe they needed vocational school for those who weren't taking the collage track.

It's going to take a paradigm shift to take a long hard look at what society needs are going to me now and in the future.

The 'Old Timer' that hired me in the late '70s for board work in the tool room, said it was because the large manufacturers had closed down all their apprenticeship programs. That included Allis-Chalmers, our parent company.
He wanted someone with board skills that could learn from him and the two tool & die makers. 
(I really didn't appreciate the opportunity I had been given until years later...    )


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## middle.road (Feb 5, 2020)

I desperately wanted to go after an A&P up at Lewis in '79. Couldn't secure a loan for tuition though.
Figured that would be the ticket to see me through until retirement. I see now that wouldn't have worked either.
I know of two gents who are A&P mechanics and worked at McGhee Tyson in Knoxville for a major. 
They were RIF'd when they were in their mid fifties. Just when they were getting to the 'sweet' spot in their pension plans.
One is holding down the floor at Home Depot, the other is drive a delivery truck - local.



C-Bag said:


> Having never heard of the book and also astonished by the choice of ride I looked up when it was written and it was published in 1996. It had been "extensively researched for 20yrs" and as a guy who graduated in '72 that world and now are not even in the same galaxy. And '96 was before NAFTA and the whole way our economy works. When we went from goods and services to an information based economy and the mass exodus of manufacturing the tradesman became an independent contractor. The only guys I know who aren't just working stiffs are contractors. And the guys who work for them no longer have full time work and don't make what they used to make when they got prevailing wage.
> 
> Every area is different and I think guys back east always made more than I ever did here. I have an AS in automotive and AS aircraft and had all my ASE tickets and an A&P license and when I applied for a job they said I was overqualified. All the schooling and $5 would get me a cup o' coffee. Actually working for a living means you get your hands dirty and the millionaires and billionaires of today do not get their hands dirty.


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## westerner (Feb 5, 2020)

mikey said:


> At the very least, there should be shop classes taught in high school.


I have two 23 year old high school graduates working in my Heavy Equipment Shop. Both went to "Non Traditional" high schools, but not "Private". 
One calls the other's school the "Ultra" Nerd school. He just went to the "Nerd" school. Neither school had any trade classes at all. Neither of these KIDS had ever driven a screw, or held a hacksaw in their lives. They could not find 13/16 on a tape with both hands. I did NOT choose to hire them, okay? I am disgusted with the whole education system, period. Neither of these people decided on a career in this field based on aptitude or desire. 


middle.road said:


> It's going to take a paradigm shift


The "Entitlement" movement is the one that needs the shift. Both of these kids think the obligation is on the Company to provide them the necessary skills, aptitude and desire to succeed. Neither can understand why they have not been promoted in their first 6 months.


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## middle.road (Feb 5, 2020)

Perhaps it is we that have failed them by allowing the school districts to *dictate *to us what was best for our children instead of getting more involved with the whole system and holding the administrators, and also legislators to task for the curriculum being taught and methods used.
How did we allow school districts across the country to shut down and liquidate so much? 
Or perhaps it might have been that the kids just didn't want the take _those_ classes, which takes us back to 'entitlement'...


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## projectnut (Feb 5, 2020)

In the late 80's and through the 90's technical training in our area was seen as a waste of time.  Everyone was pushing the kids to get a college degree.  The apprenticeships dried up, the high schools closed all the shops (wood, machine, and automotive, etc.) and tried to steer those interested in technical careers toward the computer programing side of things.  They quickly found out quite a few kids weren't interested in programming or software development as a career.  They were either left to fend for themselves or find someone in the community to mentor them.

In the early 2000's the baby boomers started retiring and it was a struggle to find qualified machinists, plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, electricians, and other trades people.  It was far too expensive to try and recreate all the high school technical programs even though  there was a high demand for trained tradesmen.  The light finally went on and the local high schools started partnering with the technical colleges.

Those interested in technical careers can now spend several hours a week at the technical colleges and learn their trade of choice.  Even 15 years the programs were initiated there are still plenty of openings for qualified tradesmen.  Fortunately the schools have recognized the problem and made proactive decisions  to fill the needs.  Our local technical college has 4 huge state of the art machine shops, a facility for training fire fighters, 2 automotive/ truck shops, a program for budding construction workers, training and apprenticeships for electricians, plumbers, and even heavy equipment operators.

I must say I am pleased with the progress being made.  I would much rather see a kid pick a career they're interested in rather than go through a life of drudgery at a job that they can't stand.


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## vtcnc (Feb 5, 2020)

Warning! Warning! You have pushed Bryan's Hot Button! 

Be careful what you ask for...Vermont's situation is something like this:

Population: about 628,000 people in 2018.

We are losing something like 1,000 people annually the past three years, predictions of a loss of 11,000 people across the state is predicted over the next 5 years.

Unemployment in Chittenden county, the most populous of the state and seat of Burlington, is currently at 1.5% the lowest ever recorded in VT history and somebody claims this is the lowest in the country. Another person at the Chamber told me that Burlington was at 0.9%! That's great, right!?

There are something like 8 Centers of Technical Excellence (CTE or Vocational Schools) in Vermont. Where I live in Saint Albans, they have a welding program, auto tech program, building trades, engineering, cosmotology, digital design, and they continue to add more. My 18 year will graduate this year as a Sr. with 3-4 college credits and a completed internship in the Digital Design program.

Starting wages in our factory in Burlington with ZERO experience is $14/hr. Most people are coming in with a couple of years experience and getting $16-18/hr. Journeyman Electrician's are starting at $20-25/hr. Master Plumbers and Electricians are naming their price and people are paying it. With the shortage of labor, I've heard stories of some of these guys making six figures just by signing up for OT.

Our machinists are making mid $20 and up. Most fabrication jobs, press operators, CNC sheetmetal machine operators, etc. are $17-21/hr.

When I tell people who are working in a grocery store that we are hiring - after listening to them complain about their pay - and I tell them what we pay...I wish I had a nickel for every time I get a blank stare in return and we never see them apply.

I've participated in a State driven initiative pushed by the governor. It is funded by the DOE and it is a program to fast track and recruit people into what is something like a Manufacturing Talent Pipeline. We have worked with ALL of the CTEs, third party training providers, local community colleges and other manufacturers we compete with for local labor - with the idea that we need to get kids interested and educated in Manufacturing. Almost all of the programs created to date have been utilized by incumbent employees, there have been no recruits to come through the program in the year that the initiative was launched.

There is a National Event in October - Manufacturing Day. Companies all around the country are encouraged to hold open houses and contact schools to get kids to come in and visit the factory and get a sense of what a modern career in advanced U.S. manufacturing looks like. I can't get CTE directors or high school administrators or teachers to signup. Several excuses I've heard: don't have the bus money in the budget, I can't take only the interested few - have to bring everyone to make it fair, not in our charter, need to get approval, nobody is interested, etc.

Here is the thing - the kids aren't interested in manufacturing. And I got to tell you, I've spent a bunch of time with the legislators and educators on this and after listening to what they are up against - I conclude that _it is the parents_. Nobody wants their kids working in a factory. They are pushing, pushing, pushing university education. Some people blame the teachers for this. I don't. They are parents too. And everyone thinks factories are some relic of the past - that somehow we are beyond that old fashioned time, right?! I've heard some pretty distorted views of what people think factory life is like. Or worse AND incorrectly they think manufacturing _is going away_ because of automation or China - nobody wants anything to do with it. We have done a terrible job about telling people what our lives are like.

The last thing that bugs me is the manufacturers themselves. There is a lot of finger-pointing at the state. I'm not a fan of Vermont politics and I know I'm brushing up against the forum rules here, but Vermont is such a small state with almost no resources except its people. Manufacturers absolutely have the power to make change and have a seat at the table with the people they want to hire - many are content to shift blame to the state and the teachers because that seems like the fashionable and easy thing to do.

The educators see the writing on the wall in Vermont. There was a survey in April 2019:





__





						Press Room - Vermont Business Roundtable
					






					vtroundtable.org
				




*When asked, “Are you more or less optimistic about the general business climate in your sector compared to three months ago?”…overall the responses were largely neutral or negative. *The Manufacturing sector expressed the most optimism (40%), while the Education sector had the most pessimistic outlook (43%).
Conclusion: very few jobs, talent is leaving, resources are in abundance, nobody is looking for jobs in our sector and many companies have sort of just thrown up their hands. As a result, the vocational schools are starting to shift their attention to nursing, professional services, coding and other service related trades. This isn't bad for those industries, but for manufacturers, sadly I think the last of the vocational schools are permanently transformed and have abandoned manufacturing. Do I think high schools should take this on? YES. Will they? NO. They have no incentive to do so.


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## Chewy (Feb 5, 2020)

Everybody has valid points.  There is one point everybody has missed.  You have to want to get off your lazy A-- and do something.  About 1/2 dozen of my former Scouts took vocational training at the local community collage.  They all have jobs and depending on your point of view, they have different opportunities for advancement or maybe dead end.  All have been employed since graduation day.  The point being that they know what it is like to get dirty or cold. They understand that they have a job to do and are expected to complete it.

Contrast that to what is out there in the job market.  I just retired from a very large company.  They can't find people to work for them.  Good starting wages and VERY good benefits.  The problem is that they expect you to show up for work and even worse is to do some work while you are there.  The New Hires is what they are called.  They are very good playing with their phones.  Holding a screwdriver or wrench, not so good.  You would be surprised how many walk off the job at first break on day one (about 2 hours into shift).  We do physical work, not sit on a couch.

My boy has been working construction jobs for the last couple of years while going to collage.  Currently he puts tombstones in graveyards.  He gets cold, wet and tired, but he has a job.  I told him years ago when he got really got into Scouts, he couldn't get his drivers license until he got Eagle.  He screwed around until he found girls.  Got his Eagle in a hurry then.  Then he had to find work to support his habit.   Quite a few of the parents used that trick and all of their kids turned out real good. Yes, I'm a real SOB. There are  jobs available in the Service fields, but you have to put an effort into learning and then doing them.  Crawling under a house with spiders to fix a pipe is not appealing to kids today.

You can try to get vocational back in school.  I'm afraid that nobody will elect to take it.  Have a class on faster Tweeting and there will be standing room only.

Sorry about the rant.


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## savarin (Feb 5, 2020)

Personally I dislike the apprenticeship system as it really is a slave wage environment.
I believe the best way of training up is a full time education with some industry release involved.
Also an apprentice can stay in one company for the duration and only know that companies methods and standards.
We need to change our education system from the ground up, teach the teachers properly, pay them to do a good job.
Its always seemed a bit strange to me that elementary schools have the most overworked and lowest paid teachers and overcrowded classes where if we loose the kids there we have lost them for life but universities have the most overpaid lecturers and the students predominately do their own learning with just a tad of guidance.
The fact that most high schools do not have manual arts to any worthwhile degree so manual dexterity has no place to flourish so many kids do not find that spark.
An area of concern which lead to many high schools removing their metal and wood shops was the problems with work place health and safety, it was easier to scrap than to solve and saved money in the bargain.
Its interesting that in Australia the most well paid jobs appear to be in the trades and most degree holders do not work in their field of study.
We have a large "Technical and Further Education" sector that these days are full of overseas students because that brings in more money.
The high cost of courses is definitely a deterrent to a lot of students who would benefit from the courses and really want to do them.
Short changing the education of your population is a sure fire way of reducing their chances of real work and jobs.
One country that seems to have hit the correct mix is Finland, worth looking at what they do.


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## mikey (Feb 5, 2020)

I have to admit that I didn't rely on the school system to train my son in the "technical arts". The schools in Hawaii had all but done away with shop classes so I took on that job myself. My son can tune and maintain a car, shoot a bow and make everything he needs to do that, work on car electronics and car audio, do wood work, work on motorcycles, fabricate, shoot a camera competently and many other tasks. He's been in "school" with the old man since he was old enough to understand what I've taught him and he has worked alongside me for most of his life when he was living with us. Anything he was interested in that I knew anything about, I taught him.  He has worked since the age of 16 and has paid his way for everything he really wanted.

Now he is a man and he is self-reliant, confident and makes a very good living. His friends come to him for help with anything mechanical. His hobbies are building guitars and computers.

So, as Bryan said, the parents are really responsible for what their children learn, both in school and out of school. I am willing to bet that most of the guys here have taught their children as well.


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## MontanaLon (Feb 5, 2020)

It is a great idea and one which will help the country to step back into manufacturing in a meaningful way. 50 years ago when you graduated from high school, you were prepared for a job of some sort at an entry level. 20 years ago you were prepared for more education in college. Today the kids are not even adequately prepared to be an adult.

When I graduated 33 years ago, my high school was a magnet school for the vocational trades. Students were bussed in from all over the county to take classes like, metal working, furniture and cabinet making, construction, technical drawing, welding. We had a computer lab and it was doubled in size the year before I graduated. Today, there are no "shop classes", every student is issued a chromebook every year and they are used in every class. But the students make less money after graduating and go deeper into debt going to college where once they graduate can't find a job and live in mommy and daddy's basement..

But what really needs to happen is making student loans dependent on grades and area of study by letting lending institutions decide who deserves a loan. We already have enough "Doctors of gender and race studies" to last forever. All we have done with student loans is subsidized a university system which is against many of the things which are at the base of our country.


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## ttabbal (Feb 5, 2020)

My oldest just signed up for middle school, 7th grade here. I was irritated that shop classes were not available, as I enjoyed them at his age and he enjoys learning about building things. I have been teaching him for a while as I want them to have basic dexterity and know how to use tools. I don't plan on letting them drive till they can do basic maintenance and emergency jobs like installing a spare and jump starting. I had to learn a lot of these things the hard way, so I want them to have at least the basics. I'd like them to have a more structured learning experience with a better equipped shop, but I'll have to keep at it myself. 

The oldest has basic wood and metal work, hand tools, basic metal lathe operation, electronic soldering, and a little MIG welding. Along with a little programming and computer skills, even a little bit of CAD with TinkerCAD. 

When it comes to manufacturing, I'm just an interested hobbyist. I've never worked in a shop professionally. I would like to see more of it done here though. If there is ever an issue with China, I can't see how anything will get made. Outside of hobby and smaller businesses though, I'm not sure I see it happening anytime soon. We'll probably lose all of the experienced professionals to retirement before the systems figure it out and then who will train them?


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## C-Bag (Feb 5, 2020)

middle.road said:


> I desperately wanted to go after an A&P up at Lewis in '79. Couldn't secure a loan for tuition though.
> Figured that would be the ticket to see me through until retirement. I see now that wouldn't have worked either.
> I know of two gents who are A&P mechanics and worked at McGhee Tyson in Knoxville for a major.
> They were RIF'd when they were in their mid fifties. Just when they were getting to the 'sweet' spot in their pension plans.
> One is holding down the floor at Home Depot, the other is drive a delivery truck - local.


Yup, I entered aircraft school in the fall of '80. The airline industry crashed soon after. Where it was typical to have several of the airline rep's  come and recruit we never saw one in our two year program. I was committed and through work study made $175mo, was in class from 7am to 2pm then worked in the auto shop and machine shop till 4:30 everyday, 5 days a week. I lived in a camp trailer in a little wide spot in the road for the two years. My space rent was $35 a mo and my propane was $9. I was the only guy in the whole program who got through without a student loan. After 2 semesters with 2 more to go I bumped into a grad who was working at WingsWest, the big Bonanza dealer. He made min wage $7.42hr. There was no way I was going to work for that and have to sign a log. But I hung in there. When I took my practical my instructor was a grad who had worked in the field for 10yrs, he had his AI ticket and was bragging to me he was going back into the field with a commuter airline in Oregon for $10.50hr. I looked at him and said you know what I'm going to do? Work in Yosemite as a customer car mech for $14.50hr Teamsters, and not sign any logs. He was floored.

I could be bitter and say it was wasted time but I learned a lot about what I could do and survive on my own. And it ultimately led me to do what I'm doing now and I'm working for myself making more money than I ever did punching a time clock for folks who never thought I worked fast enough or wanted to pay me what I was worth. So it all worked out and if I hadn't done it I'd not be where I am. Which is not where anybody else would want to be but I'm grateful.


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## tweinke (Feb 5, 2020)

The high school  here is working toward re building there vocational classes after letting all of it pretty much go away. Welding classes are there hot thing right now as far as metal trades, looks also like they will restart building trades back up soon. I am glad they are reviving these classes not everyone wants or can afford a collage degree


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## C-Bag (Feb 6, 2020)

We have discussed this before coming at it from different angles like why don't kids want to "make?". And there is this tendency to want to make it a simple problem when it's as complicated as there is individuals involved. We have to dance around the fact it was mandated that schools could only focus on reading writing and math. No "enrichment" like music, art, manual arts like woodshop and metal shop. Not even phys-Ed!!!!! Yeah, reading and writing and math are basic but in my few brushes with managing it has become astoundingly apparent there is somebody for every job and when you are young you have no clue what you want to do. So you need to expose them to as much as possible. I loved my auto shop class and teacher but got I was NOT cut out for being a mech. I hate being under the gun time wise and certain makes of car just annoy me to distraction. But because there was nothing else that appealed I spent the majority of my carreer doing that. And pretty much hated it. I was finally able to jump to building machines rather than fixing cars and was much happier.

I hear what you're saying Bryan but blaming the parents I think is pretty simplistic. When I was young I didn't listen to my parents much. The only thing I took away from them is their work ethic because I didn't do what either of them did. 

And how many of those kids parents lost their jobs when the company they worked for decided to move to another state or country? My SIL works for Lego. She was telling me how it was hard because they were moving production to Mexico and their workers were having to train the "new guys" how to do their old job. Oh Lego was going to give the displaced workers a stipend to help transition. But do you think those folks are ever going to trust any company they work for again? Some guys revel in this cowboy attitude and a lot of folks just feel unsettled and unsecure. And it's been used against us for working folks for decades. None of the places I worked for had a retirement plan, few had health benefits. A cowboy amongst a herd of cowboys.


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## projectnut (Feb 6, 2020)

savarin said:


> An area of concern which lead to many high schools removing their metal and wood shops was the problems with work place health and safety, it was easier to scrap than to solve and saved money in the bargain.
> *Its interesting that in Australia the most well paid jobs appear to be in the trades* and most degree holders do not work in their field of study.
> We have a large "Technical and Further Education" sector that these days are full of overseas students because that brings in more money.
> The high cost of courses is definitely a deterrent to a lot of students who would benefit from the courses and really want to do them.
> ...



That reminds me of the old joke:  A doctor was having problems with a leaky sink.  After trying numerous times to repair it himself he finally called a plumber.  The plumber arrived and within a few minutes was able to resolve the problem.  He presented his bill to the doctor and the doctor became outraged.  The doctor commented "this bill is ridiculous,  I'm a brain surgeon, and I don't make that kind of money!!  The plumber calmly replied, "I was a brain surgeon as well, that's why I switched careers to become a plumber". 

By the way my father also was a plumber (actually a steam fitter), he made a good living but I don't remember him rolling in cash.

Later in life I was working on an industrial construction project in the LA area.  I happened across a fairly young plumber who was installing a gas line for one of the machines.  We started talking and he began testing my knowledge in the field of plumbing.  When asked a question I responded jokingly, "don't fool with me, my father was a plumber and he taught me all there is to know about plumbing".  His equally humorous response was "well then tell me all the rules of plumbing".  I quickly responded "S**T goes down hill and payday is Friday".  His response was " apparently your father didn't like you very well, because he didn't teach you the third and most important rule of plumbing".  That rule being "don't bite your finger nails"

Needless to say I was one upped on my own joke.  The good thing is that apparently the plumber had relayed the story to his coworkers.  That one small incident opened the door to a good working relationship with all the tradesman.


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## JohnG (Feb 6, 2020)

Well, mmcmdl, you have hit a raw nerve.

Like projectnut I live in WI, and I am pleased with the revival of technical career training in our schools.  They now call shop class "fab lab" as it is oriented toward cnc processes which are becoming universal across many types of manufacturing.

We do expect our schools to prepare people for a lifetime of work and middle road pointed out that even in more stable times this is iffy.  

If you want to scare a manufacturer, try these words:  "skilled labor".  These are the jobs we automate away as soon as the machines are up to it.

Construction has avoided this.  Because the industry is seasonal, cyclical, and populated with poorly capitalized small businesses, it has not automated.  Those who tried went broke owning expensive, idle machinery in a downturn.  It's cheaper to use labor inefficiently when you are busy and lay it off at no cost when you are not. The construction industry can only provide steady work when the labor supply is restricted. 

Finally, I'm struck that this is completely a male discussion--writers, role models, boys.  The nursing and business classes are filled with girls intent on securing steady jobs.  I see this every spring when the paper runs pictures of the graduating classes.  I have to admit I don't know what's going on here.


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## projectnut (Feb 6, 2020)

JohnG said:


> *Finally, I'm struck that this is completely a male discussion--writers, role models, boys.  The nursing and business classes are filled with girls intent on securing steady jobs.*  I see this every spring when the paper runs pictures of the graduating classes.  I have to admit I don't know what's going on here.



The reality is most trades have been dominated by males.  In all the years I worked in an Engineering department there were very few women in the profession.  In more recent years there were as many as 6 women in our department of 80+ positions.  Visiting our local UW campus I now see as many if not more female engineering students than males.  I am also now seeing more female welders, and plumbers, but in our area the millwright and machinist trades still seem to be male dominated. 

 As an FYI fortunately things are changing.   In recent months we've unfortunately had a few visits to emergency rooms, and veterinary hospitals.  Contrary to tradition we've seen far more female veterinary instructors, surgeons, and students than males.  Our observation has been that less than 30% of the staff and students are male.  On the other hand we've seen a huge influx of male nurses in hospitals.  On our recent visits more than half the nurses were male.


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## DiscoDan (Feb 6, 2020)

I live south of Baltimore, Maryland. After I read this post this morning I just happen to see that a teacher from a local school called Center for Applied Technology North (otherwise known as CAT) had won an award. I went to their website to see everything they offer, which is encouraging. Check out their site: 






						Career Programs | Center of Applied Technology North
					






					www.catnorth.org
				




They also list other carer colleges and technical schools:



			https://04babf78-ad5d-48bb-8eff-377d1663d862.filesusr.com/ugd/88e3f1_6c27c942663a4a588d2e0c2e19222fd9.pdf


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## mmcmdl (Feb 6, 2020)

Dan . Very glad to see Earl Beck up and running . They came into our company back in the 90s and certified all mechanics/machinists in welding .


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## markba633csi (Feb 6, 2020)

You would think newly arrived people would be rushing to Vermont- other countries don't seem to have an attitude about working in factories
MS


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