# Duh? What's with the pennies?



## graham-xrf (Oct 7, 2021)

Pennies - the sizing unit increment for brad nails.
Usually, a length unit starts out referenced to some sort of length standard, but not this time! The relationship to length is arcane, and is thought to have described the number of English pennies needed to buy 100 hand forged nails. Mass manufacture has blunted the effect of inflation, but 100 six-penny nails (they are two inches long), needed 6/240ths of a pound, or half a shilling. 100 six-penny nails (2") cost sixpence. 100 eight-penny nails (2-1/2") cost eightpence. The more you paid, the longer the nail. 6d meant six denarii, but well after the Roman denarius had devalued from being made of silver.

Pounds, shillings and pence was coinage in use when I was a child. I knew that 6d would get me into a Saturday morning cinema session at the local primary school, done by pushing aside the divider wall between two classrooms, setting out chairs in rows with a centre isle, a roll-down screen, and a Bell & Howell projector at the back with valve-type speakers amplifier. Pathé and Movitone News, a Bugs Bunny cartoon, interval, then some kind of Western or crime drama. We kids were outnumbered by the grown-ups.

We have these "penny nails units", but we don't even know for sure the start point. I venture a guess that at some stage, there was a 2d coin (that's tuppence), and it was one inch in diameter, but I don't know.

It would seem that one has to first get past a cost-to-length code conversions to get an actual length dimension, then re-code into AWG or SWG to arrive at the the thickness. 18-gauge gets us to 1.02mm, or 0.403". I can see why folk just get used to whatever AWG fits their gun, and how many pennies long is good for their wood without sticking out the other side

I am still figuring out the nails. I guess it will be awhile before I get to know which nailer best suits me, and whether it shall be air, or cordless electric


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## Illinoyance (Oct 7, 2021)

I believe the penney came from the price of X number of nails in pennies.


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## aliva (Oct 8, 2021)

I've never seen nails sold in units of pennies. Here in Canada. all nails are sold by the length and type. Simple


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## graham-xrf (Oct 8, 2021)

aliva said:


> I've never seen nails sold in units of pennies. Here in Canada. all nails are sold by the length and type. Simple


Yes - the way I like it, and come to that, I expect metric most times. The actual experience is a chaotic mix of all. Some sized in pennies. Most in inches. Some in inches, but cited in mm.


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## Bi11Hudson (Oct 8, 2021)

Stateside, lumber is dimensioned as for example a 2 X 4. That the 2 X 4 is nowadays 1-1/2 by 3-1/2 is as much a matter of saving a few pennies for the lumber and planer mills. My old (1887) house was built, the core part, with a 2 X 4 that was actually 2-1/8 by 4-1/4. Unmilled, they said. . . When I drive nails, I use an 8d nail to hold a (new) 2 X 4 in place. But for *framing* with the same board, I use a 14d nail. Or sometimes a 16d. Depending on what I have handy. But on the old part of the house, with dry lumber, I use drilled and bolted joints. Or lag screws with a pilot hole. Nails won't penetrate the old wood. They just bend.

I suppose that doesn't really fit the question asked, just my comments. But I was raised to the "penny" system and a nail measured by length, whether fractional or metric, is meaningless to me. A "box" nail and a "framing" nail are two entirely different devices. A box nail of 2-1/2" length will not hold the same as a 10d framing nail. And a 10d framing nail will split out a joint that needs a box nail. Each has its' own uses and does not do well for the other. 

In the old days, when hand made nails transitioned to (square) cut nails, to (round) wire nails, the penny system simply followed along. The interested party, carpenters, maybe couldn't read or write but could build a house in a week or three. Today it takes an educated man a couple or three months to do the same. So where is the upside to measuring a nail simply by length? Me, I'll abide by the time tested system.

.


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## WobblyHand (Oct 9, 2021)

Bi11Hudson said:


> But on the old part of the house, with dry lumber, I use drilled and bolted joints. Or lag screws with a pilot hole. Nails won't penetrate the old wood. They just bend.


Remember rebuilding the farmers porch on my old house that was supported by oak cantilever beams.  Had to drill a pilot hole for every nail, because the 114 year old oak beams were really tough.  I'd drive a nail in and when there was 1/4" - 1/2" remaining to drive, the nail would just bend - every time.  After 6 times, I detected a pattern.   Thought I was doing something wrong, and tested driving nails into something else.  It was the old hard dry oak.  Finally figured out it was faster to drill a full depth pilot hole and then hammer in the nails.  It sure took a lot longer, but no more bent nails.  And 30 years later, no raised nails.  Beat me how many penny the nails were, maybe 8d?


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