# What to buy next? Shaper vs. Surf grinder vs. Tool Cutter grinder?



## stioc (Oct 11, 2019)

So after equipping yourself with the basics as in my signature what do you consider to be the next most useful tool if you could buy just one?

I know many consider shapers too old, in fact, all three of these tools could be called 'special interest' as opposed to 'general interest' tools but at some point I'd want all three...not sure why other than to just have them


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## ThinWoodsman (Oct 11, 2019)

Picked up an Ammco shaper last fall and it has since become my favorite machine.
 * doesn't require firing up the 3-phase
 * uses HSS toolbits like a lathe
 * you set it up and walk away
 * it's surprisingly quiet
 * the mess is easily contained
Don't have room for a surface grinder and consider tool-cutter grinders too pricey, so have no opinion on those.


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## benmychree (Oct 11, 2019)

I'd want (and do have ) all three; I do not consider small shapers to be all that useful, as larger ones are, but they do take up space and if space is limited, they might not be the best choice. That said, I think the next choice would be the surface grinder, but if a T&C grinder came along, it could be outfitted to perform surface grinding.  T&C grinders can be had relatively cheap, but the tooling required for all but the simplest work adds up quickly and expensively.  all that said, I'd go with the surface grinder, hopefully one with automatic (powered) feeds, especially table travel.


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## projectnut (Oct 11, 2019)

I have a surface grinder and a shaper.  Of the two the surface grinder gets used far more than the shaper.  However the shaper comes in handy when it comes time to make internal keyways and splines.  

Personally price would dictate whether to buy either.  Both happened to fall into my lap at prices I couldn't refuse.  The shaper was part of an auction lot from the Badger Army Ammunitions Plant in Baraboo Wisconsin.  It was on a pallet with and indexer and bench centers.  A friend who was interested in the indexer bought the lot.  He knew I was considering a shaper.  He offered it to me for less than $200.00, which was what I thought it was worth at the time.  However if the price had been closer to what I've seen on eBay or Craigslist I certainly wouldn't have been interested.  I couldn't justify spending nearly $1,000.00 for the amount of use it gets.

Likewise the surface grinder came along at a price I couldn't refuse.  It was purchased from a contractor that was repairing lower end units for Mercury Marine.  He was near retirement and tried limiting the amount of work he was taking on.  The company wasn't listening and kept sending him more and more work.  He finally sold half the machines in the shop to limit the amount of work he could take on.


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## cjtoombs (Oct 11, 2019)

I love shapers, and I have way too many of them, but for my money it's the T&C grinder for usefulness.  You can grind flat things, round things and of course tools.  Which means you can sharpen lathe tools, milling cutters, end mills, etc.  You can even make form cutters.  It can pinch hit for a surface grinder.  All this assumes you have the right attachments for it, of course.  Those can cost as much as the grinder itself, so try to hold out for a package deal with a bunch of accessories with one.


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## Technical Ted (Oct 11, 2019)

I have all 3 and would start with a surface grinder. I used mine, with a cup wheel, for a lot of tool sharpening. They can do more than just grind things flat. But, if I knew I'd eventually have all 3, if a good deal came along on one of the others I would most likely jump on it. I actually bought both my shaper and T&C grinder in the same week because that's when the good deals came up for me. Got both for under $1K combined. That was a good week.

Ted


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## Janderso (Oct 11, 2019)

If you go through a lot of cutting tools, gear cutters, end mills, drill bits etc. I would think a tool and cutter grinder would be awful handy.
I have a surface grinder and a 7" shaper. I have never used the shaper and I am a beginner with the SG.
My opinion, surface grinder, tool and cutter grinder, shaper, in that order.


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## C-Bag (Oct 11, 2019)

I knew I needed a T&C grinder so it was first and had to buy new as no deals around here. The shaper fell into my lap for a song so I couldn't refuse and it has proven to be very useful. For me the surface grinder would be the hardest to justify. And I'm still waiting on the right one. I should have jumped on one that was local for $500 and it sometimes haunts me but I can't say I've not been able to live without one. It's all about what you do.


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## Mitch Alsup (Oct 11, 2019)

If you have a surface grinder you <in essence> are but a tool holder away from having a tool cutter.


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## stioc (Oct 11, 2019)

So it sounds like the vast majority believe that a surface grinder is a more useful tool after a lathe/mill. There are a couple of SGs in the $600 range where I live but no power feed (https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/d/fullerton-boyar-schultz-surface-grinder/6987869800.html). 

In contrast, it seems the shapers and T&C grinders are harder to come by and are more expensive.


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## MrWhoopee (Oct 11, 2019)

I'm with  benmychree, a surface grinder is way more useful. I've realized that is the logical next step for me. Shapers have disappeared from industrial shops for good reasons. I used the one we had in my machine shop class in '78, I was probably the last person. They're kind of cool in a primitive, dinosaurish sort of way, but realistically a vertical (or horizontal) mill will do anything a shaper can do.


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## rwm (Oct 11, 2019)

What kind of projects have y'all done with your surface grinders? Do you use them often? What would be the most common use?
Robert


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## Bob Korves (Oct 12, 2019)

Way beyond big and fancy and shiny tooling, which take lots of time and usually some pricey steel, and I don't start working on, I find the biggest joy I get with my surface grinder is all the little stuff that needs cleaning up or making something fit properly.  The mag chuck makes setups really fast for simple work, like making something thinner.  Need a shim?  Grab a flat washer is too thick, throw it on the chuck, and grind it until it fits.  Only takes a few minutes, and it is in full control.  Some things that you could work really hard to fit in a vise on a mill are simple when using a mag chuck on the grinder.  I use mine often, and do not have a shaper or a T&C grinder.  A surface grinder can do some cutting of tools, but it is not nearly as versatile as a T&C grinder, and often requires some thought to get some fussy sharpening job done.  The answer is that you need all three, plus a place to put them, and a bunch of tooling, and...


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## stioc (Oct 12, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> Way beyond big and fancy and shiny tooling, which take lots of time and usually some pricey steel, and I don't start working on, I find the biggest joy I get with my surface grinder is all the little stuff that needs cleaning up or making something fit properly.  The mag chuck makes setups really fast for simple work, like making something thinner.  Need a shim?  Grab a flat washer is too thick, throw it on the chuck, and grind it until it fits.  Only takes a few minutes, and it is in full control.  Some things that you could work really hard to fit in a vise on a mill are simple when using a mag chuck on the grinder.  I use mine often, and do not have a shaper or a T&C grinder.  A surface grinder can do some cutting of tools, but it is not nearly as versatile as a T&C grinder, and often requires some thought to get some fussy sharpening job done.  T*he answer is that you need all three, plus a place to put them, and a bunch of tooling, and... *



Isn't that the truth! Boils down to room, money and time...having two without the third isn't going to work


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## Nutfarmer (Oct 12, 2019)

Surface grinder hands down. If you have a mill the shaper will sit idle.You can sharpen some tooling on a surface grinder ,but good luck grinding anything flat with a tool and cutter grander.


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## AGCB97 (Oct 12, 2019)

It was said that the shapers main job nowadays is to cut internal keyways. I have cut several on mine but since I came into a few keyway broaches, the shaper is for sale. And all you really need is the broach at $30-50 each. Even if you have a set of bushings, you probably won't have the size you need anyway. They are easily made with a lathe and mill and soon you WILL have a set. 

The SG is by far the most useful of the machines mentioned. Imagination will make much use of it!

Aaron


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## C-Bag (Oct 12, 2019)

It's interesting everybody mentions the shaper being good for keyways and splines. I've never used mine for that yet. What it has done for me is take big rusty pieces of steel and make them smooth and flat within .001", or nice and square super cheaply. Can your lathe, verticle mill or surface grinder give you this kind of finish on aluminum? I'm not bagging on anybody's choices. It just depends on what you do. I'd love to have a Micromaster but I don't have the room or the $$$.


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## Technical Ted (Oct 12, 2019)

stioc said:


> So it sounds like the vast majority believe that a surface grinder is a more useful tool after a lathe/mill. There are a couple of SGs in the $600 range where I live but no power feed (https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/d/fullerton-boyar-schultz-surface-grinder/6987869800.html).
> 
> In contrast, it seems the shapers and T&C grinders are harder to come by and are more expensive.



Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on a grinder missing power feed if it's in good condition and the price is right. Power feed is nice, but not necessary especially for a hobbyist. Mine doesn't have it. If you watch some of the better YouTube videos on top notch grind hands you'll see a lot of them use manual machines.

See: https://www.youtube.com/user/SuburbanToolInc/videos

and: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKPqKYF73sJbFUSzo5dQxtQ/videos

A couple guys who seem to use manual machines in their videos.

Ted


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## AGCB97 (Oct 12, 2019)

Technical Ted said:


> Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on a grinder missing power feed if it's in good condition and the price is right. Power feed is nice, but not necessary especially for a hobbyist. Mine doesn't have it. If you watch some of the better YouTube videos on top notch grind hands you'll see a lot of them use manual machines.
> 
> See: https://www.youtube.com/user/SuburbanToolInc/videos
> 
> ...



I agree. More often than not it's grinding round things


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## projectnut (Oct 12, 2019)

I would also be in the camp that the power feed is not necessary.  My grinder gets used more often to sharpen end mills, counter sinks and horizontal milling cutters than it does to do large surfaces.  The only caveat is that once you do use a grinder with auto feeds it's hard to go back to hand cranks.

One of our grinders at work was completely automated.  You could set the feed rate, step over rate and down feed.  It came in especially handy when I had to make dozens of assorted size angle plates.  It was an excellent 10"x 30" Doall machine.  I could have purchased it for pennies on the dollar when the shop closed.  I passed on it mainly because of it's size.  It took up quite a bit of floor space when you include the hydraulic system, coolant system, and power panel.

For what I do my 6"x 12" machine is sufficient.  When I do run into larger things that need grinding I can take them to a friends commercial shop.  Either he'll do the grinding for $50.00 (I furnish the wheels) or I can do it for no cost.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 12, 2019)

Manual surface grinders certainly do good work, and get the job done, with less complication in the machines.  Excellent work is done on them.

However, letting your surface grinder automatically traverse the table at a steady and constant speed, with automatic preset step overs, even only a few thou per step if desired, leaving a beautiful finish while you are doing something else, and just waiting for the step over to trip the stop on the far side of the work, is pretty damned cool, brings on a big smile, and I recommend you all trying it sometime to see just how nice it really is.  

My 1946 B&S 2L surface grinder, with mechanical power table traverse and power cross feed step over, but no automatic vertical feed, cost me $500, needing some spindle work and a good cleanup.  A big thanks to Benmychree, who sold it to me three plus years ago.


			http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/19872.pdf


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## stioc (Oct 12, 2019)

So in my craigslist example https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/d/fullerton-boyar-schultz-surface-grinder/6987869800.html is $600 a fair deal? It  doesn't look like it comes with any tooling...which I don't even know what that would be for a SG. My guess is wheels and a mag chuck as far as the basics go?

Here's a cheaper one about 3+hrs away (one way) but looks a lot worse: https://ventura.craigslist.org/hvo/d/simi-valley-surface-grinder-boyar/6988502174.html

There are others that are better looking but in the $1k+ range.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 12, 2019)

stioc said:


> So in my craigslist example https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/d/fullerton-boyar-schultz-surface-grinder/6987869800.html is $600 a fair deal? It  doesn't look like it comes with any tooling...which I don't even know what that would be for a SG. My guess is wheels and a mag chuck as far as the basics go?
> 
> Here's a cheaper one about 3+hrs away (one way) but looks a lot worse: https://ventura.craigslist.org/hvo/d/simi-valley-surface-grinder-boyar/6988502174.html
> 
> There are others that are better looking but in the $1k+ range.


The Orange county one is a manual machine.  Boyar Schultz made good grinders.  Condition is mostly about the spindle, which can cause bad work and can be quite expensive to have rebuilt.  Many say we should not attempt to rebuild a SG spindle ourselves.  I disagree, after rebuilding the plain bearing spindle on my B&S.  Still, it is not like changing the wheel bearings on your pickup, the ball bearing spindles need a really good job of making them correct, and I have never seen a tutorial for that...  The pros charge a LOT to rebuild a SG spindle, WAY more than the used machine costs.

The Simi Valley one may be better or worse, sure looks neglected.  You gotta test them, and take the table off.  If there is grit and crud and wear in the ways, then walk away.  If the spindle has ANY play or gritty feel, walk away, or be knowledgeable, prepared, and willing to spend serious time and money on it.

If you want to buy it and use it as is, you must test it on some work and get good results.  Or be ready to repair it.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 12, 2019)

Deleted, duplicate post...


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## stioc (Oct 12, 2019)

Thanks Bob. I'm really tight on space so I'm not in a hurry for sure.


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## projectnut (Oct 12, 2019)

ddillman said:


> I had one of those. they are ok for occasional use but not heavy use. I rebuilt mine twice then got an oiled compressor.





stioc said:


> So in my craigslist example https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/d/fullerton-boyar-schultz-surface-grinder/6987869800.html is $600 a fair deal? It  doesn't look like it comes with any tooling...which I don't even know what that would be for a SG. My guess is wheels and a mag chuck as far as the basics go?
> 
> Here's a cheaper one about 3+hrs away (one way) but looks a lot worse: https://ventura.craigslist.org/hvo/d/simi-valley-surface-grinder-boyar/6988502174.html
> 
> There are others that are better looking but in the $1k+ range.



The asking price for the first one is about what I paid for my Sanford MG.  If you look back at my first post in this thread you'll see the condition of my machine versus the one you linked.  Mine came with about a dozen assorted grit wheels, a wheel hub, a hub wrench, and a magnetic chuck.   Note the one in the add doesn't have any wheel guards, a chuck, or splash guards.  A used magnetic chuck in good condition alone usually runs about $200.00.  As bob mentioned you need to test the machine to be sure the table ways, lead screws, and spindle bearings are in good shape.

Attached are 3 more pictures of my machine.  This is exactly what it looked like when I got it.  In the 6+ years I've had it the only thing I've had to do is change out a couple wheels, and lube it.


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## stioc (Oct 12, 2019)

@projectnut you have a really nice, organized shop and everything clean too...love it! Do you have any more pics/details of your shop?

I'll keep looking for a nicer unit. There was one but the guy said he bought it years ago, never even plugged it in...it was a auto mechanic shop. The unit looked complete but covered under layers of dust and way in the back where I couldn't even get to it. Again, I need to somehow create more floor space first. I'm thinking a Shars type T&C grinder might happen first because of the footprint.


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## C-Bag (Oct 12, 2019)

There was a really good thread last year about SG's and was seriously contemplating the whole thing and guys like Bob and benmychree and others were very insightful into the process. There was a Chevalier for $900 with tons of wheels and attachments and another that might have been the original Taiwanese maker of one like the smallest one Grizzley has for $600.

 Because of the excellent thread I was armed with more of what to look for than I actually knew as I've never even been around a surface grinder. The guy thought I was a grinder hand much to my shock. The killer for me was pulling the table and looking at the ways and not only were all the scrapings gone there was enough wear that it had a ridge where the ways didn't touch and long gall marks on the ways. And here the guy thought his dad didn't use it much. Maybe his dad didn't but the guy before him did or something. 

The other on later introspection had never been used I think so nothing was adjusted. There was play in the table which the gibs weren't adjusted and it seemed everything I touched was not right. And I'd just come from the Chevalier so I was spooked. So I bailed. In retrospect I might have been able to talk him down and got a machine that would have been along the caliber of the rest of my modest equipment. Most of what I saw on this coast was very used and abused and way more than the guys on the east coast were picking up stuff for so I left it all on the back burner and figure if a deal pops up in my backyard it might be fate again telling me it's time.


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## Janderso (Oct 12, 2019)

Projectnut, I really like your shop and equipment..
Basement shop?


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## mmcmdl (Oct 12, 2019)

I would have to give my vote to the SG also . I have the Micromaster in the garage but haven't had the time yet to fire her up . I've gotten thru 42 years without the use of a shaper ( used them in high school )and can utilize the SG for sharpening when necessary . I regret selling my Sinadex years back along with a bunch of other SG tooling but it's all replaceable if ever needed again .


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## Downunder Bob (Oct 13, 2019)

I would love to have all 3 and a lot more, but I just don't have the room and that's the end of it. The only way I would get enough room would be to get another house, and that aint happening either. 

From the practical point, Surface grinding, on the odd occasion I have needed it, I get done locally at reasonable cost. Shaper work mm, don't know anyone with a shaper so probably have to redesign the job. T&C grinder would be the most useful. But I do know a guy that might do tool sharpening at reasonable cost.

Currently I hand sharpen all my HSS tool bits and drill bits, but if and when I get my milling adaptor set up, I will need a away to sharpen milling cutters. I have actually hand sharpened an end mill. it worked sort of. at least it got me out of trouble.


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## projectnut (Oct 13, 2019)

Thanks for the kind comments stoic.  I have more pictures of the machines.  I take them every few years for insurance purposes. I don't really have more encompassing pictures of the shop.  Over the years I've changed the configuration at least half a dozen times as new machines come along.  we have 2 Cocker Spaniels that love to come into the shop so I try to keep things clean.  The truth be known I probably spend as much time keeping the crud off the flor as I do machining.

Janderso you are correct in that the shop is in the basement.  It started in the garage about 20 years ago, but was quickly moved to the basement.  The garage can be heated, but every time a door is opened it takes half an hour for the heater to recover.  Also after a short time there wasn't enough room for the cars in the garage, and in the cold winter months it took forever to get the machines warm.  There has been a wood shop in the basement since we built the house in the late 1980's.

I moved the machine tools down there about 20 years ago.  I disassembled each machine and hauled the parts down on an appliance dolly.  Once in the new shop each machine was reassembled.  I moved everything myself except the column for the Bridgeport, and the headstock end cabinet for the Sheldon lathe.  They each weigh about 1,000 lbs., and I don't have equipment big enough to move them.  The latest machine to go into the shop was the Black Diamond drill grinder about a year ago.

I've attached a picture of one of my "assistants".  Her name is Juliette.  She loves to come into the shop, but if the floor isn't clean she has a tendency to drag things upstairs.  Needless to say that isn't very popular.  I've also included a PowerPoint rendition of the current shop layout.


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## Janderso (Oct 13, 2019)

love it, you have done a great job of laying out your shop.


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## C-Bag (Oct 13, 2019)

Great utilization of space. Very organized.


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## NCjeeper (Oct 13, 2019)

If you get a shaper buy one that is large enough to do some real work. I had an Atlas 7" shaper and even though it was cute and ran well I found you couldn't do any real work with it. Sold it and bought a 16" G&E.


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## stioc (Oct 13, 2019)

@projectnut - thanks for sharing some more details. I'm loving those shallow drawer organizers as well as the open shelving with everything neatly organized. I hear you, I too spend a lot of time keeping my 2 car garage as well as my tools/equipment clean but it always feels crowded i.e. too small!

I would love to see more pics if you ever decided to post a thread in the Shops section: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/our-shops-and-the-spaces-we-work-in-shop-photos.186/


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## ThinWoodsman (Oct 14, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> It's interesting everybody mentions the shaper being good for keyways and splines. I've never used mine for that yet. What it has done for me is take big rusty pieces of steel and make them smooth and flat within .001", or nice and square super cheaply.



Agreed. The primary use for mine is squaring stock before milling. Depth cuts, like a square or a V-slot on a tooling plate, are simple to set up but require more attention as there is no auto downfeed. Side steps like in T-nuts require some care in setting up each pass. Mostly, a job can be set up and left running on the shaper while you are attending to that more complicated setup on the mill. And yes, even on a small shaper - just take lighter cuts.

Haven't seen the need for a surface grinder, even passed up an opportunity to purchase one cheap back before summer. I'm not running a production shop; I just use a file or progressively finer-grit sandpaper if I need to make small adjustments or apply a better finish.


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## C-Bag (Oct 14, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> Agreed. The primary use for mine is squaring stock before milling. Depth cuts, like a square or a V-slot on a tooling plate, are simple to set up but require more attention as there is no auto downfeed. Side steps like in T-nuts require some care in setting up each pass. Mostly, a job can be set up and left running on the shaper while you are attending to that more complicated setup on the mill. And yes, even on a small shaper - just take lighter cuts.
> 
> Haven't seen the need for a surface grinder, even passed up an opportunity to purchase one cheap back before summer. I'm not running a production shop; I just use a file or progressively finer-grit sandpaper if I need to make small adjustments or apply a better finish.


Lol, totally agree. Feel like a heretic admitting that here but I'm glad I'm not the only one!


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## projectnut (Oct 14, 2019)

In my book a surface grinder isn't a "must have' but rather an accessory that's more like a "nice to have".  In the scheme of things there are quite a few commercial shops that don't have them, and don't need them for the type of work they do.  Our shop just happened to have one, and since we were primarily doing prototype work that included extrusion dies it got used on a fairly regular basis.

It also got used to sharpen planer knives for the wood shop and of course end mills and horizontal milling cutters.  If we hadn't been in the extrusion die business I'm sure the machine wouldn't have been in the shop.  The floor space would have been better used by another vertical mill or a lathe.


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