# Turret Lathe Mentor Needed (hoped For)



## Uglydog (Sep 14, 2015)

Not sure if this post belongs here.
Please move or delete as appropriate.

I've had a 1939 Gisholt #5 Ram Turret lathe for several years, and I've got her running pretty well.
I was using her exclusively for drilling and boring as I had no turret lathe tooling.
About a month ago I stumbled on a large pile of machine tooling. All priced based on how full the truck bed was. Included in the pile was turret lathe tooling... I'll start cleaning up the surface rust, doesn't appear to be any pitting despite sitting unused since the mid- 1930s. Based on the known history of the location, I believe the tooling was likely used to make "Gray" 18hp drum drive tractors.  https://video.search.yahoo.com/vide...sigi=11v5oulbd&hspart=avg&hsimp=yhs-fh_lsonsw

I've begun reading some texts on how to properly use a turret lathe. And I understand that it will take a lifetime to learn, and that CNC has made her obsolete....

Regardless, is there anyone here who has experience/knowledge regarding proper use of vintage turret lathes and their tooling?

Ideally, and eventually, I'd hope that I would be invited to watch you run your machine, or you could come here.

Daryl
MN


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## Bill C. (Sep 14, 2015)

I have some experience setting up and running turret lathes.  One shop had two, one about six inch and another about twelve inch.  The small one used collets and the larger one had a three jaw chuck.  Can't remember the brands, been away from them for years.

I will be glad to try to answer your questions.


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## countryguy (Sep 14, 2015)

I also have a Hardinge turret.  Came with all the 5c(?) collets, cross slide, 2 chucks, and we are dying to crank it up and learn.    I really want to use it for making the copper plasma tips for the cnc plasma torch we use.   Seems like this would be perfect for that.   Alas, just no time and no experience on this but from some of the videos on youtube it needs the time and skill on the setup.   Anyway, if you get some pics up, I am interested.   Thinks. CG.


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## Terrywerm (Sep 14, 2015)

Daryl, I gained some experience operating them back when I had just gotten out of high school, so we're talking almost 40 years ago. Operating them was the relatively easy part. Getting them setup was the hard part and I have very limited experience in that area. The reality of it is that you have to think a little differently about your various operations when planning your setup. Once you get past that hurdle it isn't that bad. As I recall the worst part of the whole thing is that they are great for production runs of small turned parts or for production runs of shafts that only needed a few operations done on the ends of the shafts. For one or two off work they really are not very practical at all.

I suppose I could come up your way one of these weekends and we could mess around with it.


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## 4GSR (Sep 14, 2015)

I was too young to even think about running a turret lathe when I knew of them.  Dad work at a shop in Houston in the mid 1960's to the late 1970's  that had many W & S 4A's and 5A's.  And a few Gisholts.  He job was keeping all of the turret lathes running as well as the rest of the plant machinery.  His comment's to me in my teenage years was those Warner's were easy to work on compared to the P.O.S. Gisholts they had.  Of course, that has stuck with me all these years, too.  You have to remember, the Gisholts they had back then were the monster ones that had 12" spindle holes and weighed over 30,000 lbs!  There was nothing small about them!  Sorry I'm not much of help here.  Ken


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## Uglydog (Sep 14, 2015)

Yep, 
It's all about understanding the tooling, and thinking through the set-up. 
And a production run of a couple different parts is exactly what I'm thinking.
My current schedule doesn't allow me to do to much more than occasionally thinking through the problem set.

Daryl
MN


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## Terrywerm (Sep 14, 2015)

Maybe things will slow down a little as winter sets in and we could get together then if it works for you.


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## Uglydog (Sep 14, 2015)

Yep,
I've been told that the Gisholts were workhorses when they were operational. All kinds of hydraulic problems.
If there is an upside to my Gisholt, I was also told that the bulk of the hydraulic problems were in the headstock, and my headstock is supposedly old enough to be a splash system.

Daryl
MN


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 14, 2015)

I have a WWII Vintage Ames turret lathe, collets to 3/4",  I use it for turning, drilling, cut off. I have tapped, but at the expense of one tap per five pieces.... I'm too far for a day trip, but can certainly try to walk  you through yours.  I'm not familiar with the Gisholt Turret Lathe, but have run other Gishold production machines. Vertical spindle lathes come to mind.


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## Uglydog (Sep 14, 2015)

Sure wish I lived closer to you guys!!

Daryl
MN


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## Karl_T (Sep 15, 2015)

Daryl,
I've used a hardinge turret a fair bit before switching to CNC lathe.

Set up is a fairly long process. Generally not worth it unless you are making at least 20 each of a part.  They fell out of favor cause a CNC is worth it if you are making two parts.

First plan your order of operations. Put tool 1 in the first position, tool 2 in 2, ya da ya da. Then go through and set your stops for each tool. One thing I found, just set the stops only fairly close by eye the first time. You'll then see that you should re do one of the tools right away before trying to get in spec.  Also, it really helps to set up the tools so you don't need to move X very much.

I could stop by if you have a specific detail question.

Karl

PS, A thought for you. I had considered building a custom DRO with a different offset for each turret position. Then you could leave the turret set up with several common tools and quickly make parts.


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## Bill C. (Sep 15, 2015)

I would say No.1 should be the part stop. Any threading, the part needs to turned around so threading can be done. My boss had quick-disengaging tap holder and thread head with changeable threading dies. If your turret has a rear tool holder on the cross slide, we used to mount our parting tool on it and any profile tooling on the front tool holders.  With a little practice setup becomes quicker.  

Good luck with your lathe


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## Uglydog (Sep 15, 2015)

Karl_T,
I look forward to the possibility of meeting you.
I need to clean up the tooling and try to some of it out. I'll have better questions and learning if I wrestle with it first.
Based on my current schedule it might be a few months before I'd begin to hope that you'd stop by to check out the cleaned up tooling. 

And yes, I understand that it isn't worth fussing with unless there is a production run of the same part.
And that's exactly what I'm thinking about doing.

All,
I'll attempt to keep you updated with pics and bizarre questions about how to use some of these parts!

Daryl
MN


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## Karl_T (Sep 15, 2015)

Bill C. said:


> I would say No.1 should be the part stop...



Likely as many ways to set up as there are operators. I was always short on stations. So, the last station is the cut off.  Then make a spacer exactly the length of your part. After cutoff, backup turret,insert spacer between turret and stop, loosen collet, push stock ahead, reclamp. You just made a station do two jobs.

You can use the same idea for all your "right on center" ops if you are out of stations. Put all your tools on a morse taper so they can be changed out quickly, then use spacers. Not real neat but better than chucking each part twice.


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## Silverbullet (Sep 15, 2015)

The hardest thing you will have to get in your mind is al the set ups have stops to set . If you have a cross slide to use with front and back cutter set ups. Bar feeder if equipped . You have to time them to the job. I spent a few years setting them and running them . They can really give you a work out if you have a quantity per hour need. Some of the cast iron jobs I had were dirty and the sump smell would make you want to hurl. Yupp keep them clean if you run the job wet.


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## Uglydog (Sep 15, 2015)

Thanks for all the pointers!!
I'll be keeping them in mind as I wade through these Gisholt and W&S texts.
Looks like I'll need to fab, or purchase a crossfeed rear cut off.
I've got the specs. I should be able to cut one out of some large steel cubes I've got laying here.

I was planning to use a motor and pump that was used to drain fuel oil tanks prior to disposal, runs well! Thought I'd run rustlick. I've not been a fan of the water based stuff.
She lost her bar feeder before I got her. I don't know that she ever had collets. She is a D1-4. I've got a 4jaw and a 3jaw (I usually prefer the 4jaws).
She was reportedly originally used by the "welder" in Rogers MN for drilling and boring.
However, I've got nearly a complete set of 2J collets (pull type) I was thinking I might watch for a pick up Sjogren chuck. The 2j collets were in the pile with the turret tooling.
Perhaps I should sell of the 2Js and find some pull collets.... Hmmm. I'll do some price shopping.

Daryl
MN


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## countryguy (Sep 15, 2015)

Here is an example on my end of something I need now.  I would plan on making them in runs of 30 to 50.   For learning and Class theory time w/ you Mentors: How would you plan this in order of operations as an example (link to part below). 
1) Outside turn: OD shape.  Cross slide at a proper angle to run cutter in to shape slope.
2)  Inside turn; Hollow out inner taper ID.    Not sure on this one....
3) Drill- center hole. 
4) Turn: Part cutoff tool.  simple enough.   Cross slide ( on opposite end) w/ parting cut off?

Guys-  Not really sure on any of this.  Just going by some things I've seen online.   

https://www.google.com/search?q=S45...AgQ_AUoA2oVChMIvMKZ94n6xwIVCzg-Ch0rvAIv&dpr=1

some vids showing some neat setups:


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## Uglydog (Sep 15, 2015)

To HM Moderators:
There seems to be some interest in this topic. Possibly growing?
Is this the best category?
Should "Production Machining" or "Turret Lathes" be a new category?
Likely way to early to make changes. But, please consider depending on where this goes.

More random thoughts.
Daryl
MN


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## Smithdoor (Sep 15, 2015)

Do have drawing you can  post
I have owned and used turret lathes from 2 size up to a 5L Gisholt for over 30 years
They will out produce CNC on most type parts if tooled

Dave



Uglydog said:


> Thanks for all the pointers!!
> I'll be keeping them in mind as I wade through these Gisholt and W&S texts.
> Looks like I'll need to fab, or purchase a crossfeed rear cut off.
> I've got the specs. I should be able to cut one out of some large steel cubes I've got laying here.
> ...


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## Uglydog (Sep 15, 2015)

"Do have drawing you post"

I'm unclear what you are asking?
Please clarify.

Daryl
MN


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## jererp (Sep 15, 2015)

Daryl, 
I have a Logan 850 that I purchased from a screw machine shop. It came with a 6 position turret in good working order,  as well as a production cross slide to replace the tool room one. I had visions of setting up a job for a production run just for kicks,  but have lost interest until a need comes along. 
Back in the late 70's - early ' 80's, I worked as a manufacturing engineer on a line of bar stock machines. Similar tooling concepts as turret lathes. Each tool should be set to give finished sizes when they hit the positive stop. A lot of special ground tools were used to turn multiple diameters. As someone else said,  plan your tool layout such that you can lock down your cross slide. Then once you get a part in print,  you only need to gauge every 10 parts or so.


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 15, 2015)

Smithdoor said:


> Do have drawing you post
> Dave



Do  you have drawings of what you want to make  you could post?

I think that 's what Dave means.


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## eeler1 (Sep 15, 2015)

Rear Cut off tool post?


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## Uglydog (Sep 15, 2015)

No, All I have are these W&S cataloge measurements.
I doubt the model numbers match up.
My plan was to measure cutter height of the crossfeed turret and build one with the same size ration, and design features.
I've only seen one Gisholt rear tool holder on Ebay, and missed her.

Daryl
MN


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## Bill C. (Sep 16, 2015)

Uglydog said:


> Not sure if this post belongs here.
> Please move or delete as appropriate.
> 
> I've had a 1939 Gisholt #5 Ram Turret lathe for several years, and I've got her running pretty well.
> ...




What type of turret tooling did you find?  Did you find any Box tooling? Box tooling has a cutter bit and a adjustable follower rest built into the holder.   That is a nice lathe.

You are correct CNC's did replace turrets and screw machines.  Once the program is written and tweaked it can be stored in the computer for future runs.


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## Uglydog (Sep 16, 2015)

I'll get some pics and develop a list this weekend.
I've been focusing on theory and less on specifics.

Daryl
MN


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## Bill C. (Sep 17, 2015)

Uglydog said:


> I'll get some pics and develop a list this weekend.
> I've been focusing on theory and less on specifics.
> 
> Daryl
> MN



I found a photo supposedly your model turret lathe. It is nice large machine.  Apparently many tool options for the turret.  Usually the first position on the turret is the part stop.  Most of the turrets have a rear tool holder on the back part of the slide where the cutoff blade is mounted.  

Hope to see some photos when you get chance.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Sep 17, 2015)

Great machines for manual production of parts within their particular constraints, I sometimes use a small Hardinge turret with no carriage or tool post, drilling and tapping small parts is a breeze and the machine itself is a work of art. They also have a Warner & Swasey number 5 something turret lathe with a 5" through the spindle bore, powered turret slide, powered apron and cross slide, I have no idea how much horsepower the spindle drive has but I routinely push 3" twist drills through 5" of stainless rounds without a pilot hole or spotted center, it never labors at all, it will push the stock right through the 3 Jaw chuck without a backer on the part.

However it has a useful envelope of about 12" between the turret and chuck/collet, you also cannot load parts from the front as the turret is in the way. These are great machines for their intended purpose, fairly limited for general lathe work.


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## gi_984 (Sep 19, 2015)

Daryl,
     I've thought hard about buying a big turret lathe since there are so many up here going for almost scrap prices.  But just not enough room in the shop.  Two books that might help you:

"Getting the Most Out of Your Turret Lathe"  and "The Turret Lathe Operator's Manual"  both by Warner & Swasey


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## Uglydog (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks for the book titles recommendations!

Pics as per requested. I've been able to divine the names of some of these. However, having the name is not quite the same as figuring out how it works. 
Didn't get much done this weekend. Eldest daughter decided to spend the weekend, she wanted to learn how to cut dovetails and finger joints. Yeah, wood stuff. Old school: dove tail saw and chisel. Spent a lot of time discussing joint set up application and honing.  

Anyway... here are the turret attachment pics.
My plan is to identify each accessory, learn how each works, and learn it's capacity / limitations.  

Thank you,
Daryl
MN


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## Smithdoor (Sep 20, 2015)

I have use big turrets as engine lathes
Work great and will cut faster they built rigid
I would even make steady rest and some comes with threading

Dave



gi_984 said:


> Daryl,
> I've thought hard about buying a big turret lathe since there are so many up here going for almost scrap prices.  But just not enough room in the shop.  Two books that might help you:
> 
> "Getting the Most Out of Your Turret Lathe"  and "The Turret Lathe Operator's Manual"  both by Warner & Swasey


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 20, 2015)

Great Potential there, Daryl, lots of things to discover. 

Tom


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## Smithdoor (Sep 21, 2015)

A lot of good tooling
You find most you will never use
The basic tooling is roller box , threading/die head/taping  and drilling/reaming for bar work
I do not see must for chucking work

Dave



Uglydog said:


> Thanks for the book titles recommendations!
> 
> Pics as per requested. I've been able to divine the names of some of these. However, having the name is not quite the same as figuring out how it works.
> Didn't get much done this weekend. Eldest daughter decided to spend the weekend, she wanted to learn how to cut dovetails and finger joints. Yeah, wood stuff. Old school: dove tail saw and chisel. Spent a lot of time discussing joint set up application and honing.
> ...


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## Smithdoor (Sep 23, 2015)

This is a photo of a J & L #4 turning a 17" wheel for hangar door

Dave


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## Wreck™Wreck (Sep 23, 2015)

That is quite a few box tools you have there Dog, you will no doubt find them interesting to set up if ever used.


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## Uglydog (Sep 25, 2015)

Dad used to tell me that it doesn't matter the quality of the tool or how much you could sell it for, the only real value is in its being used.
Starts with knowing and understanding how to use it, and then... actually using it.

Daryl
MN


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## Paul in OKC (Oct 3, 2015)

Wish I lived closer. I have run W&S from a #3 all the way to a 5A.  Thought about looking for a #3 for home shop at one point. Very handy machines.  Tapped with releasing head, od threads with the die head. Used box tools, boring head, etc. in the turret. Was 30+ years ago, but........


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## Uglydog (Oct 4, 2015)

Paul in OKC,
Be careful, will see how this goes come winter break when school is in recess (I teach), it may be me knocking at your door with a truck load of tooling for you to look at.

Daryl
MN


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## Silverbullet (Oct 5, 2015)

Has others have said the turret lathes are made super strong. Made to last forever the only thing that did them in was the cnc, we used to turn out thousands of parts still in the 70s , in one shop where I worked we had at least thirty of them in all the larger sizes. W/S , most had bar feeders . Like I said before you worked when running them babies. I will say I learned a lot running them , we made the most of all operations , once set up parts would be all but done when they left the lathe. Sure wish I could go thru all my apprentice years again , I would have tryed some of the small screw machines never did get to run those. Had lots of good men help teach me , and there all gone now . No more apprentices just operators if that.


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## Uglydog (Nov 21, 2015)

Progress!
Today I tracked down my power loss. She starts well then loses power. 
Always figured it was electrical. Likely because I'm most overwhelmed at electrical puzzles. 
The motor always sounds the same.... must be something else.
Reread the manual. The access ports shown in the manual aren't the same as what the lathe actually wears.
Thus, started tearing down the headstock.
Ended up being a slipping clutch which gets worse as it warms. 
I don't have the "factory tools" which the manual recommends. Surprise!
6 hours to figure it out. 4 minutes to fix.

Already started cleaning the rust off the assorted attachments.
Now on to making a rear cut off.

Will be in touch via this thread, thanks for patiently standing by.

Daryl
MN


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## Uglydog (Nov 24, 2015)

Any suggestions on Min/Max guidelines on gpm choosing a flood coolant pump for the Gisholt #5?
Looking at Greymills pumps. I've got an option on a nearly free, working, used one. But, the deal is only on if I can assure him it'll work for this application.
How do I know? 
Nothing in the Gisholt manual (I've got) about flood coolant pumps. 

General guidelines? 
Suggestions?
Opinions?

Daryl
MN


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## 4GSR (Nov 24, 2015)

Daryl,

The coolant pumps are not generally covered in the machine manuals back in times. I tried to get a good look at the one on my L & S, and all I can make out on it is the "Gusher" name.  It's only about 1/7 HP, not much!  Seem like the GPM is about 6 to 8.  Maybe someone else can provide more information.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Nov 24, 2015)

Uglydog said:


> Any suggestions on Min/Max guidelines on gpm choosing a flood coolant pump for the Gisholt #5?
> Looking at Greymills pumps. I've got an option on a nearly free, working, used one. But, the deal is only on if I can assure him it'll work for this application.
> How do I know?
> Nothing in the Gisholt manual (I've got) about flood coolant pumps.
> ...


Any fluid pump that will move the coolant in a steady stream will work for a general coolant supply, if however you are using through spindle or through tool coolant you may need higher pressures to make it effective.

If you just want general flood with open lathe tools and drills on a small lathe any small submersible pump will do, your goal will be to flood coolant at the tool, not shoot the chips out of the machine, Little Giant makes excellent pumps for this purpose.


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## Uglydog (Dec 6, 2015)

I'm attempting to plan out turning Van Norman 5V collets.
The thread is .775 x 18.
Any suggestions on how to best proceed?

Daryl
MN


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## TomS (Dec 7, 2015)

In the 70's I ran a Jones and Lamson turret lathe.  Not sure of the size designation but it had a 12" 3 jaw and could run collets too.  My boss at the time had worked for an aerospace manufacturing company in the Los Angeles area running nothing but turret lathes.  The first thing he taught me when setting up was to set all of the turret tool offsets the same.  This minimized the amount of cranking to engage the tool.  When making hundreds or thousands of parts a 1/2" of extra cranking added up to a lot of lost motion and wear and tear on the operator.  

Hope this helps.

Tom S.


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## countryguy (Dec 7, 2015)

I'm going to wade back in a bit here too.    We have the hardinge turret lathe (from early posts) and my Son and I still hoping  to pull that thing out soon.   I'll get the two books mentioned in the posts above.     Fun machines to learn upon it seems.   How I wish I could retire and play all day.    Thanks to all the guy's who jumped in here.  It's a really productive thread!


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## ecdez (Dec 7, 2015)

I've got an old Bardons and Oliver that appears to be a Warner & Swasey clone of sorts.  Here's a thread for mine. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/bardons-oliver-5.16120/

Anyway, during my search for information I found a PDF version of the book entitled
"How to get the most out of your turret lathe : A guide to modern practice in work planning, tooling, and production."
published by Warner & Swasey in 1963.

If anyone want's a copy let me know and I'll try to figure out a way to share it.  It's a 100m file.  Perhaps I can get it to someone who can post it up in the downloads section or someone can help me figure it out and I can do it myself.  Not sure if there's a copyright issue or not but the book is 50+ years old.


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## Uglydog (Dec 7, 2015)

ecdez 
I've got that text well worth reading.
Hands on is still different. Regardless, we all know a good Mentor can't be replaced by a text!
Also, check out: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087215767;view=1up;seq=15

Daryl
MN


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## Wreck™Wreck (Dec 10, 2015)

I ran 2 different turret lathes today, a small Hardinge and a large Warner & Swasey #5.
Spotted, tap drilled and tapped 55 brass parts 8-32 X 1/4" deep , it took less then 1 hour including setup, however I did bore a 5C emergency collet the day before on a CNC chucker lathe, the threading would have taken me 3 times as long in the chucker, the turret lathes are fast.

Then drilled 1 1/8" through 2 3/8" Dia. 1018 CRS blanks 1 1/2" long on the W&S which has a power feed turret, no spot drill or pilot drill, straight through with a 1 1/8" taper shank drill 84 parts in 3 1/2 hours, a turret lathe can not be beat for this type of work. The actual machining time was less the 1 minute each, 128 RPM X .018 Inches Per Revolution is 2.3" per minute feedrate. Chucking and unchucking the parts in the 20" 3 jaw scroll chuck took longer.

This machine has a hydraulic collet chuck system with collets up to 4" Dia. (it is 5" through the spindle) if I could even find the parts and a collet of the correct size it would likely require 8 hours to change the chucks for a 3 hour job. Warner & Swasey used "push collets" that have the taper on the front which are pushed in the direction of the turret rather then pulled into the spindle.

All in all very useful machines for this type of work, setup is everything yet is not worth doing if only making a handful of parts.

A W&S #5 is not a small machine


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## countryguy (Dec 11, 2015)

I believe somone posted useful info here on the text cited as well:  http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ey-getting-most-out-your-turret-lathe-290964/


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## bfd (Sep 21, 2016)

I too ran lodge and shipleys and warner and swasies 40 years ago during my apprenticeship I will help if you have specific questions. some of the pictures I can identify some not. From the top left picture 1 I don't know #2 appears to be some kind if chuck or parts to the travel stop #3 expanding die head, set it to size and depth there should be a trip lever on the back when it lever it opens up allowing you to remove it from the part without reversing. #4 the turret tool holders come with built in follower rests to hold accurate size. #5 round part could be a close up stop or boring bar square tool tool holder for tailstock turret #6 don't know #7  could be a length stop. #8 taper shank drill holder has adapters that the drill fits into then locks on a flat on the od of the adapter. #9,10,11,12 no idea, #13 no idea sorry and thanks bill


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## Jimsehr (Sep 22, 2016)

It's a shame that the bar feed is gone. And the collets are missing on your turret lathe. One of the best things about turrets was that once the bar was loaded you could run a part then cut if off then run the next part without stopping the machine. Also the rear toolpost could be timed to a tool in the front to hold very close lengths. Sometime we would time more then one tool . Like making a bushing and chamfering both the  Inside and outside  at the same time. I even have a W&S collet chuck that you can bore to take short pieces up to 6 inches dia. I can remember running the same part for months. My right arm was about 1 inch larger then my left from using the turret all the time.
Jimsehr


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