# Carbide insert quality differences query



## Bill Kahn (Jul 15, 2018)

I am buying some more CCMT 32.51 inserts for my PM1030.  (Used in an SCLCR08-3A 1/2" in a 250-101).  After a year now of Saturday afternoons playing with the lathe feel like more of a beginner than ever.

So, am up on ebay.  And see scores of offerings.  Ranging from say
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-CCMT...t-Set-In-Box/142252791433?hash=item211eed5689
At $8 for 10 of them 

Through to say
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CCMT-32-51...32.51+ccmt&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313
At like $85 for 10 of them.

So a 10 to 1 ratio of price for generally the same thing.

Can folks tell me the difference?

I would expect factors like
1) Delivery time
2) Country of origin
3) How well they cut
4) How long they cut

But from a simple performance point of view, how different are they?  Does spending 10 times result in significantly longer life?  Given I still make boneheaded decisions on the lathe (and stall the machine, take a .1 instead of a .01 cut (subtraction remains a challenge for me when I am standing in front of the lathe)) are the cheap and expensive about equally robust to dumbness?

Thanks for thoughts. (Or pointer to previous threads on insert price/performance reviews/experience)

-Bill


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## dfsmoto (Jul 15, 2018)

Ok I want to start by saying I am not expert on the subject but I will give you my experience!  

The Chinese ones that are super cheap are not too bad.  The coated ones for steels are not as good as their more expensive counterparts from manufacturers like iscar, kennametal, sanvik coromat, etc.  The Chinese uncoated ones for aluminum (and I use them for finish cuts on steel) are good to great. 

What I have been using now that have the same quality of the big American companies offerings is stuff from Japan and Korea.  In my experience I would rate any mitibishi or korloy insert as top quality and they are middle of the road priced.  There are very good deals on eBay from both those companies.

You will find as your tooling increases the confusion of inserts escalates!  Lol luckily I use only about 10 different kinds now!


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## mksj (Jul 15, 2018)

I do notice a significant difference (finish and durability) between the generic inserts such as Cobra, and more name brand as noted above. I recommend staying with Iscar, Kennametal, Sanvik, Korloy, etc. purchased through a US vendor or there are some that ship from Europe. Most out of Asia are most likely counterfeit, but who knows. I have a range of CCMT inserts, but my main insert that I have been using is an Iscar 32.51 / CCMT 09T304 Grade IC907 coated. I get about 3-6 months out of an insert depending on usage, works great in a wide range of metals. I purchased some Cobra inserts a while back, they did not cut as well and failed quickly.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-10-pcs...ade-IC907-Coated-Carbide-Inserts/192580337571

On Aluminum I typically use ground edge uncoated polished carbide inserts, so something like CCGT. A ground edge is sharper but more fragile. The one listed below has a narrow tip, so feeds would be a bit slower for a good finish, but should be good for smaller lathes. I usually use a 32.51 vs 32.50.5 on my 1340 lathe.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/KORLOY-CCG...bide-Inserts-for-Aluminum-10-PCS/232751354295 

Many of these name brand inserts come up with very wide price ranges, so buying from say MSC or Carbide Depot one would pay $12-16, but on eBay often you will see them for $2-4 for the same insert. You just need to hunt around and be weary of fakes, I often look carefully at the insert, box and labeling. So bottom line, you can get good inserts at reasonable prices, find what works for you and stick with that brand.


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## Rooster (Jul 15, 2018)

Greetings Bill, i have been buying Mitsubishi  CCMT 21.51 inserts from a Chinese vendor that say made in Japan. Whether they are relabeled or counterfeit i don't know, what i do know know is they are very affordable and work very well. And like dsfmoto i also use uncoated ccgt for finish cuts on steel. Bottom line is carbide inserts are a disposable product and i see no reason to pay any more than i have too.


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## benmychree (Jul 15, 2018)

Obviously, the difference is the Kennametal brand name, not to mention the highest quality industrial grade products that they manufacture.


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## dfsmoto (Jul 15, 2018)

One thing also to remember.  These are all global companies now who source their tooling from around the world.  Even kennametal has some things made elsewhere in the world.  Almost all the tungsten carbide comes from mines in China.

I do wonder about some eBay deals being repackaged.  I buy my mitibishi inserts from a seller on eBay that sells other machine tools also.  Some that are super cheap probably not legit!

This is a bit off topic but some insert designs made by some of the big names seem to me to be more for high power, high rpm machining centers and not your hobby shop lathe or mill.  So just make sure you know what you are buying.


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## benmychree (Jul 15, 2018)

dfsmoto said:


> One thing also to remember.  These are all global companies now who source their tooling from around the world.  Even kennametal has some things made elsewhere in the world.  Almost all the tungsten carbide comes from mines in China.
> 
> I do wonder about some eBay deals being repackaged.  I buy my mitibishi inserts from a seller on eBay that sells other machine tools also.  Some that are super cheap probably not legit!
> 
> This is a bit off topic but some insert designs made by some of the big names seem to me to be more for high power, high rpm machining centers and not your hobby shop lathe or mill.  So just make sure you know what you are buying.


Tungsten from China is a raw material; the magic is in the processing and manufacture; quality makes a difference, the expensive insert is likely cheaper in terms of metal removal and long live, cheap inserts are likely to break down on the cutting edges and fail.  Personally, I do most all lathe work with positive rake triangular inserts, which can be touched up on a diamond wheel if the cutting edge gets chipped.  There used to be a area service that actually reground inserts on top, sides, and radius for a nominal fee, they would still fit the holders without shimming.


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## Mitch Alsup (Jul 15, 2018)

1) Delivery time  -- 20-30 days
2) Country of origin -- china
3) How well they cut -- pretty good CNMG, have not used the CCGT yet.
4) How long they cut -- have not worn one out yet.

I, like dfsmoto, have had rather good luck with chinese carbide inserts, the only one I have damaged got damaged when the tool holder fell out of my hands and landed on my concrete floor and broke the tip off. I still am using the other tip on it CCMT holder.

I have only been working with 6061 Aluminum, though.


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## benmychree (Jul 15, 2018)

There certainly is a great difference in tool life between just cutting aluminum and other metals such as various steels, both hard and soft, cast iron of all grades, and steel that has been torch cut.  Tool life can be brief --- !


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## dfsmoto (Jul 15, 2018)

benmychree said:


> There certainly is a great difference in tool life between just cutting aluminum and other metals such as various steels, both hard and soft, cast iron of all grades, and steel that has been torch cut.  Tool life can be brief --- !


Haha yeah I have endmills that just get abused on torchcut steel!  That's where they "end" their life.


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## jdedmon91 (Jul 15, 2018)

Depending on the feeds and speeds plus material. The plan truth is the fact is unless you
are pushing your feed and speeds then you will notice differences in inserts. Most home shop lathes or folks machining at home can make good work with the lesser expensive inserts. I have both high quality industrial grade carbide and the lesser grades from eBay. Amazon, and vendors like Bangood. I have had decent results with each. 

However your mileage may vary 


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## SamI (Jul 16, 2018)

I used to buy all of my inserts from eBay however I have recently switched to a reputable seller from the UK and I now go to them direct.  They do cost more however I found that the Chinese ones were of variable quality.  One box I would get would be top notch and would last every bit as well as the ones bought from one of the big name manufacturers and then the next would be utterly useless and chip or blunt on the first cut.  Unfortunately there is no way of knowing until it is too late.  It is for that reason that I only buy inserts from a trusted source.

You have also got to consider that for hobby use you are not getting through large quantities of inserts so while they may cost more it shouldn’t make them unaffordable given the life you will get from them.

I try to select cutting tools that have as many edges as possible.  At the moment I am using WNMG inserts for the bulk of my external cutting so I get 6 cutting tips per insert which gives a relatively low price per cutting edge when compared to say a CCMT insert.


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## jdedmon91 (Jul 16, 2018)

SamI said:


> I used to buy all of my inserts from eBay however I have recently switched to a reputable seller from the UK and I now go to them direct. They do cost more however I found that the Chinese ones were of variable quality. One box I would get would be top notch and would last every bit as well as the ones bought from one of the big name manufacturers and then the next would be utterly useless and chip or blunt on the first cut. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing until it is too late. It is for that reason that I only buy inserts from a trusted source.
> 
> You have also got to consider that for hobby use you are not getting through large quantities of inserts so while they may cost more it shouldn’t make them unaffordable given the life you will get from them.
> 
> I try to select cutting tools that have as many edges as possible. At the moment I am using WNMG inserts for the bulk of my external cutting so I get 6 cutting tips per insert which gives a relatively low price per cutting edge when compared to say a CCMT insert.



Good words. I’m a fan of CNMG inserts for the same reason just 2 less edges. At the risk of beating a dead horse. I even dovetailed large shank tools to fit my QCTP so I can use them


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## SamI (Jul 16, 2018)

jdedmon91 said:


> At the risk of beating a dead horse. I even dovetailed large shank tools to fit my QCTP so I can use them



That's a great idea - I've got a few 1" shank tools that I got as part of a job lot a while ago that I've been wondering what to do with.  I was going to sell them on eBay (when I get round to it!) but now I think I'll hang on to them.  My only concern would be tapping holes in them to fit the depth stop - I'd assume that they are hardened but I could be wrong.


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## ddickey (Jul 16, 2018)

Is the WNMG only used on a negative rake holder?


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## SamI (Jul 16, 2018)

Yes, I believe so.  The holder provides the clearance beneath the insert instead of the insert itself hence it can be flipped to provide three more cutting edges once the top ones have worn out.


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## jdedmon91 (Jul 16, 2018)

SamI said:


> That's a great idea - I've got a few 1" shank tools that I got as part of a job lot a while ago that I've been wondering what to do with. I was going to sell them on eBay (when I get round to it!) but now I think I'll hang on to them. My only concern would be tapping holes in them to fit the depth stop - I'd assume that they are hardened but I could be wrong.



I’ve made a few videos on this this one covers the adjustment stud. I use 1/4 20 threaded rod and make my adjusters. 



 I hope this explains how I do it. 


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## Ray C (Jul 17, 2018)

I've encountered many counterfeit packs of inserts on eBay.  In some cases, the inserts were switched within genuine packaging and other times, the whole deal (inserts, package and labeling) was fraudulent.  Caveat Emptor.

There are many factories out there in the world making inserts.  It's a lot like automotive oil filters.   There are hundreds of factories making them on contract for the name-brand suppliers.   In some cases, the factories sell their own brand which may, or may-not be as good as (or better) than the name-brand parts.   You won't really know until you buy it and inspect it.  In the case of carbide inserts, you won't know the quality until you use it.

For people who are not pushing the carbide very hard, the cheap stuff will probably do the trick in most cases.   If you're pushing the carbide to it's published limits, you'll know in a heartbeat if you got substandard junk.

Ray

PS:  Among the inserts coming from quality assured distributors of known, reliable manufacturers (Kennametal, Greenleaf, Mitsubishi, Kyocera etc), they all work pretty well.   If the package gives rating and speed specs, they typically perform as expected.   Most home applications with manual equipment can't push the carbide as hard as the specs will allow.   In home applications with manual equipment, carbide breaks because of operator error and/or lack of rigidity.


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## jdedmon91 (Jul 17, 2018)

Ray C said:


> I've encountered many counterfeit packs of inserts on eBay. In some cases, the inserts were switched within genuine packaging and other times, the whole deal (inserts, package and labeling) was fraudulent. Caveat Emptor.
> 
> There are many factories out there in the world making inserts. It's a lot like automotive oil filters. There are hundreds of factories making them on contract for the name-brand suppliers. In some cases, the factories sell their own brand which may, or may-not be as good as (or better) than the name-brand parts. You won't really know until you buy it and inspect it. In the case of carbide inserts, you won't know the quality until you use it.
> 
> ...



Ray could not said it any better myself. A perfect example if you watch YouTube video is ABom 79. Some of the cuts he takes on manual lathes are very aggressive but he never has the SFM up to those levels recommend by carbide manufacturers mainly because of the machine was not designed to run at those speeds. 

Now for the rest of us with even smaller less rigid lathes we can’t even approach he the depth of cuts to stress the carbide so most of us won’t notice much difference in tool life 




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## Rooster (Jul 17, 2018)

I watched a video awhile back of Sandvik carbide insert manufacturing. With the  expensive equipment required i'm surprised even the costly inserts are as cheap as they are.


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 17, 2018)

I have bought  many different inerts from ebay,all supposedly are quality brands, made in Japan or Korea but I'm under no illusion they actually are genuine, I even bought a few Sandvik carbide inserts that was proudly marked made in China,but as a hobbyist I find them all to perform well and to my satisfaction. have only broken a couple but totally it was my fault, now I know a little better .
 I think *Ray C *said it best:


Ray C said:


> For people who are not pushing the carbide very hard, the cheap stuff will probably do the trick in most cases. If you're pushing the carbide to it's published limits, you'll know in a heartbeat if you got substandard junk.


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## aliva (Jul 17, 2018)

check Pierre's Garage he has video test of some inserts from Banggood


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