# Newbie needs help with Logan 200 spindle runout



## SuperTroye

Hi All,
I bought a Logan 200 last year and finally getting around to getting it set up as life has caught up. I'm having a problem with spindle runout and I don't know how to fix it. I measure 0.001" runout on the outside of the spindle but 0.015" runout on the chuck.. 

The previous owner mentioned he changed a bearing, but I don't know if it was the front or back bearing. Perhaps there could have been an issue when he reassembled it? He included an extra and can post the brand if necessary.  I will probably remove the spindle next and inspect all surfaces to see what the problem is.

Any advice would be appreciated. I'm hoping the lathe is not totally shot.

Here is a video showing a dial indicator on various chucks and in various places.


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## Kernbigo

check the register of the chuck it looks like that may be your problem and needs to be re cut


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## markba633csi

It's possible that the lathe has been crashed so hard the spindle threads have been "pulled" but I have never seen that.  The spindle seems to indicate correctly so the only thing left is the threads.  Or...
All of the tooling you have is damaged or wrong somehow, but I am tending toward something wrong with the spindle threads.
Hopefully a Logan expert will shed more light on this
Mark


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## markba633csi

Ah I see your problem now- none of your tooling is seating fully on the spindle- is that the correct spindle or has it been replaced?
Your chucks and faceplate should screw all the way up to the shoulder on the spindle- you should take some measurements. Don't try to modify the spindle yet! Measure first- check with Scott Logan for the correct dimensions if needed
Mark
ps It looks almost like the shoulder has been cut back too far, I'm not versed well enough with Logans to ascertain that


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## SuperTroye

markba633csi said:


> It's possible that the lathe has been crashed so hard the spindle threads have been "pulled" but I have never seen that.  The spindle seems to indicate correctly so the only thing left is the threads.  Or...
> All of the tooling you have is damaged or wrong somehow, but I am tending toward something wrong with the spindle threads.
> Hopefully a Logan expert will shed more light on this
> Mark



Thanks for your help. It's possible about a crash but I don't see any other damage. I tested with another chuck I have (that didn't come with the lathe) and the same result. So, I don't think it's the tooling.


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## SuperTroye

markba633csi said:


> Ah I see your problem now- none of your tooling is seating fully on the spindle- is that the correct spindle or has it been replaced?
> Your chucks and faceplate should screw all the way up to the shoulder on the spindle- you should take some measurements. Don't try to modify the spindle yet! Measure first- check with Scott Logan for the correct dimensions
> Mark



Ok thanks... I just spin them until I can't spin anymore. so they are tight. It's the correct spindle for the Logan 200 = 1 1/2" x 8TPI.  What other measurements should I take?


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## markba633csi

You'll need to determine what the correct register (unthreaded portion) diameter of the spindle is supposed to be and the profile of the shoulder from where the threads stop- what is the correct distance there.  You may have to make a spacer if the spindle has been "modified" by an "unauthorized person"
M


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## markba633csi

I think Terrywerm has a 200, maybe he could measure his for you, I believe quite a few members have them


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## Rooster

The back of the chuck or face plate should seat against the back of the spindle. Perhaps the previous owner turned down the register too much trying to correct run-out. May-be try getting a spacer to fit between the chuck and spindle register, the threads are just for holding the chuck on.


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## T. J.

Mark and Kernbigo have identified your problem. Pre-finished chuck back plates with 1-1/2"-8 threads will need to have the threads relieved and the shoulder square up to seat against the shoulder on the lathe spindle. I can post some pics of mine this afternoon that may help you.


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## Richard King 2

Did you align you machine bed with a level first?   The machine is not new, so  you can't expect perfect.  Oh buy yourself a .0005" indicator.  Take off the chuck and back plate and run the spindle at high speed for about 30 min.  shut it off and lay your hand on the spindle housing and see if it is almost to hot to touch  140 F to 150F.  Then mount the mag base on the spindle headstock and put the indicator on the top of spindle and slide a 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 under the spindle and slightly pry up on the spindle say put 20 pounds pressure up.  the indicator should not have any movement or less then a tenth (.0001")    Then put the mag base on the face of the spindle and check lateral movement.  Again you should not have more then a tenth.  Look on page 75 - 77 and see what I mean.  https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g4003g_m.pdf.   If that checks bad then tighten up the spindle spanner nut a 1/16" or 1/8 turn.
I know the manual is not your machine, but they have good manuals and a lathe is a lathe.

Like the others said remove the face plate and check for burrs.  stone any with med grit Indian lapping stone wipe everything off with your hand and screw it back together.  If you were a bit more experienced i would say to blue up threads and taper.  check the outside face of the and if it's with in .001" put your chuck back on and snug up the bolts but not super tight.  Then check the OD of the chuck and tap it with a dead blow hammer   and get it spinning on the spindle axis like you do with a 4 jaw chuck.  Get that less then .001".  Have to be a detective and test and retest before taking something apart.  SKF bearing company says that many times one makes things worse then leaving the bearings alone.

If you do remove the spindle we can talk about how and what to do later.   Rich


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## SuperTroye

Ok thanks to everyone who replied. Let me digest the comments and will report back on what I find. Here is another video where I indicate on a 3MT to 2JT drill arbor. I'm trying to figure out where on the spindle is the issue. I hope this helps in diagnosing the problem.


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## Nogoingback

markba633csi said:


> Ah I see your problem now- none of your tooling is seating fully on the spindle- is that the correct spindle or has it been replaced?
> Your chucks and faceplate should screw all the way up to the shoulder on the spindle- you should take some measurements. Don't try to modify the spindle yet! Measure first- check with Scott Logan for the correct dimensions if needed
> Mark
> ps It looks almost like the shoulder has been cut back too far, I'm not versed well enough with Logans to ascertain that




Mark is correct: your tools aren't seating on the spindle nose properly.  This is what it should look like:




Here's a pic of a Model 200 spindle.  The total length is about 1 inch and the unthreaded portion is around 1/4".




If you can post a pic of your spindle it would help, but it looks as though your tooling is bottoming on the threads rather than bearing
against the shoulder on the spindle.


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## markba633csi

It's quite possible that none of your tooling was ever properly fitted to the spindle nose in terms of cutting away (relieving) the internal threads to allow full engagement up to the shoulder in which case you simply need to do that and you'll be off and running.  But it would be good to know if your spindle shoulder has been cut back enough to make it non-standard. 
Mark


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## markba633csi

I can't explain why your faceplate does not fit properly if it is indeed a Logan original part.  It may not be. 
Mark


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## Nogoingback

And this is what the back side of the chuck should look like.  Notice how it's relieved to allow for the unthreaded portion of the spindle.
If your chucks aren't like this, there's your problem.


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## markba633csi

If you need some guidance doing the thread relief let us know- you'll need a boring bar and you'll need to machine a temporary spacer
Mark


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## Nogoingback

markba633csi said:


> I can't explain why your faceplate does not fit properly if it is indeed a Logan original part.  It may not be.
> Mark




Could be tooling from another lathe:  a number of lathes came with that thread.  They also could be backplates that were partially machined
and needed finishing, which was never done properly.


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## markba633csi

That's what I'm thinking too


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## Richard King 2

I found this for you.  Page 4 of the instruction manual says it has 3 rows of sealed bearings.   If you do take it apart check the spindle by setting it on precision V blocks and indicate it to be sure it's not bent.   Also when your ready to install new bearings we can talk about Instaalling them so the TIR  run out is at the low side.   Near the bottom of the first PDF shows the spindle assembly  in 2 pictures.   If you can You could donate something to them as it's an .org.   

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2093/3353.pdf
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2093/3377.pdf


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## SuperTroye

Ok yes after reading all the posts I think the tooling is from another lathe. I see what everyone means now. I attached 2 pics of the spindle.

I bought a SB 10k with QCGB that I can set up to do the relief cuts [I'm trying to sell the Logan and set up the SB ]. Maybe I should just buy a proper 3 jaw chuck on eBay made for Logan and call it a day.


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## middle.road

Check the bearing replacement that the PO performed. Logans are stout, and the spindles have proper bearings in them, but as with everything else with machine tools it has to be done properly.
I grabbed an extra 3-jaw off of EBay several years ago, cleaned it and slapped it on and had only .0015 runout.
They do have to register properly as noted above.


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## T. J.

You need to perform the cuts on whatever lathe you're going to use the chuck on. Even though the Logan and the South Bend both have 1-1/2" - 8 threads, the spindle noses are different.

Take the back plate off of the chuck. Thread it on the spindle backwards with a spacer between the face and the spindle shoulder. Cut the thread relief with a boring bar, then face off the shoulder of the back plate so it is square. Then, turn the back plate around and thread it onto the spindle in its normal orientation. Ensure that it is seating against the spindle shoulder. Then take a light facing cut on it so that it is running true to the spindle axis. You may also need to recut the register to match your chuck. Now mount the chuck back on it and test the runout.

Edit:  Even if you buy a new chuck for the Logan, the above procedure will still need to be done with the new back plate.


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## Silverbullet

Any thought the spindle isn't installed correctly . And isn't seated in the bearings , or its been abused.


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## SuperTroye

T. J. said:


> You need to perform the cuts on whatever lathe you're going to use the chuck on. Even though the Logan and the South Bend both have 1-1/2" - 8 threads, the spindle noses are different.
> 
> Take the back plate off of the chuck. Thread it on the spindle backwards with a spacer between the face and the spindle shoulder. Cut the thread relief with a boring bar, then face off the shoulder of the back plate so it is square. Then, turn the back plate around and thread it onto the spindle in its normal orientation. Ensure that it is seating against the spindle shoulder. Then take a light facing cut on it so that it is running true to the spindle axis. You may also need to recut the register to match your chuck. Now mount the chuck back on it and test the runout.
> 
> Edit:  Even if you buy a new chuck for the Logan, the above procedure will still need to be done with the new back plate.



Roger that, thank you for taking the time to explain it. I will need to tool up (get a boring bar, etc) for this. I look forward to it. Thanks to all who have helped along the way!


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## T. J.

I hope we're all on the same page, but just to clarify, I believe there are two separate issues here:

The spindle runout.
The improperly fitted chuck(s).
I've limited my comments to the chuck issue, as I've not disassembled my spindle and have no experience to add to the conversation.

Carry on


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## SuperTroye

Silverbullet said:


> Any thought the spindle isn't installed correctly . And isn't seated in the bearings , or its been abused.


That was my first thought... so I bought the dial indicator to start checking. The first video shows about 0.001 runout measured on the spindle itself. Visual inspection shows it to be ok and free of catastrophic crashes.


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## T. J.

Oh, and if you determine that the spindle issue needs to be addressed, do that before fixing the chuck!


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## mikey

I agree with Richard - you need to determine how accurate the spindle is. I'm sure the guys are right and the excessive runout of your chucks have to do with how they fit on the register but that is a separate issue. You first need to know how accurate the spindle is. I would suggest you begin with using a 0.0005" dial test indicator, not a drop indicator, and measure for concentricity in the taper at several points to make sure the readings are consistent. If the spindle is accurate then check play in the spindle bearings as Richard suggested; if there is a lot of play then the spindle bearings may need adjustment or possibly replacement. If there is no significant play then your spindle is okay and you can focus on the fit of your chucks on the register.

Nailing down the source of runout is a process of elimination and you need to diagnose it before taking corrective measures.


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## SuperTroye

T. J. said:


> I hope we're all on the same page, but just to clarify, I believe there are two separate issues here:
> 
> The spindle runout.
> The improperly fitted chuck(s).
> I've limited my comments to the chuck issue, as I've not disassembled my spindle and have no experience to add to the conversation.
> 
> Carry on



Indeed... I will take care of #2 first, then go after #1. In your opinion how bad is the spindle runout? Is there another measurement you want me to take?


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## SuperTroye

Ok, I need to tool up  I will need to buy a boring bar and a 0.0005 dial test indicator. The wife will be pleased with the news 

Here is a video inspecting the backplate, threads, and it running on the lathe just by itself.


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## Richard King 2

It looks like you motor is loose too...seems to be shake, rocken and rolling down there in the video....lol


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## markba633csi

If you are going to sell the Logan you might not want to do more than just finishing the backplates, your runout tests look ok to me. 
Mark


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## Terrywerm

I see my name was mentioned earlier. Thank gosh you guys didn't use it in vain!  

I do have a Logan 200, and I will get a couple of spindle photos and measurements for you later today if you wish. Just let me know.

Everything that everyone has said so far appears to be correct. You want to address any spindle runout issues before you attempt to correct any registration issues on your chucks or faceplates.   Runout of .001" on the spindle seems like an awful lot to me, though I do not know what the factory spec was off the top of my head. Logan lathes were not Monarchs, Hardinges or LeBlonds, but I would still expect smaller numbers than what you are seeing on the spindle. It also appears to me that the runout on the registration boss was less than the runout on the inside of the taper which is a red flag for me. They should be very close to the same and should be concentric, in other words they should both be off the same amount at the same point in rotation of the spindle. From my experience, differences in the two often occur due to nicks or burrs on the internal taper. For some reason people are often not very careful about their treatment of those internal tapers.

Richard also mentioned warming up the bearings before taking any measurements, as this tightens things up and will give you more accurate readings of what is actually happening with your lathe.

Once you are satisfied with your spindle runout, you can then do something with the registration cuts on your chucks and faceplates, which are obviously not correct for that lathe. The reason that you need to address the spindle issue first is because any work that you do to the faceplates or chuck backplates is dependent on the runout that your spindle has currently.

Here is how I would approach your issue:

Get a .0005  or a .0001 test indicator
Recheck your spindle runout after allowing your lathe to run for a while and getting everything up to operating temperature.
Examine the internal taper of the spindle very closely for any nicks, burrs, or other high spots. Any high spots can be removed with a fine stone.
If the spindle runout is significant, beyond what you feel is appropriate, _address that problem first_. I would be looking for .0001" or less at the spindle.
Properly bore the registers in your faceplates and chuck backplates.
Remount your chucks on the backplates.
Don't expect used chucks to get you down to little or no runout. As scroll chucks (3 jaw) wear, their ability to center the jaw accurately decreases. You will also find that their runout will be different with test bars of different diameters. I have a newer Shars 6" 3 jaw chuck for mine, and I get .0003" runout on a 1" test bar mounted in the chuck. Very good in my opinion, but I think I just got lucky when cutting the registrations on my backing plate. 

One last thing to keep in mind: the generally accepted practice when fitting a different chuck to a lathe is to replace the back plate so that new registrations are cut to fit that lathe. The chuck is then mounted to the back plate as machined for that lathe.


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## T. J.

The spindle runout is definitely a problem. As a comparison, my Logan has less than 0.0001" of runout on the spindle. I think you would want to fix that if you were keeping the lathe, maybe not if you're going to sell it.


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## markba633csi

Hi Terry thanks for jumping in- to me it looked like the taper measurement was "ticking" periodically so I figured burrs and dirt. Less so on the outside measurements.  Dirt and residue can throw off my caliper by half a thou or more so that's what I thought he was seeing- not a big deal compared to the backplate/threads issue especially for a machine he may not keep.
Mark


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## Terrywerm

markba633csi said:


> Hi Terry thanks for jumping in- to me it looked like the taper measurement was "ticking" periodically so I figured burrs and dirt. Less so on the outside measurements.  Dirt and residue can throw off my caliper by half a thou or more so that's what thought he was seeing- not a big deal compared to the backplate/threads issue especially for a machine he may not keep.
> Mark



That's what I was thinking. 

I have always been mystified at how damaged the internal tapers can get over time. I believe that people think of the spindle taper as being 'durable' and they care little about how they go about putting things inside, especially when putting in pieces of stock that fit through the bore. A little rough handling of such pieces is all it takes to nick up the inside. 

At any rate, those nicks and burrs need to be removed if a person plans to use a collet adapter or any MT centers in the headstock.


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## SuperTroye

Ok stay tuned... I just ordered a 0.0005 dial test indicator and will be in 3 days. In addition, I will probably order a quick change tool post that I will use on the Logan, and keep for the South Bend when I sell the Logan. It will have a boring bar with it when the spindle gets sorted out. I will reread all the posts above and report back with measurements and video. Many thanks to all of your contributions... I am new, but able to learn.


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## Richard King 2

Another thing you could do to see or actually hear if the spindle bearings are bad.  In the old days I took a long handled 16" screw driver and put the handle end in your ear and the blade on the bearing housing and listen.  Turn off the spindle and listen until it stops turning.  A bad bearing sounds as if rocks rein there when it coasts to a stop.  If you want to feel like a doctor go to an auto store and buy a stethoscope .


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## SuperTroye

Richard King 2 said:


> Another thing you could do to see or actually hear if the spindle bearings are bad. In the old days I took a long handled 16" screw driver and put the handle end in your ear and the blade on the bearing housing and listen. Turn off the spindle and listen until it stops turning. A bad bearing sounds as if rocks rein there when it coasts to a stop. If you want to feel like a doctor go to an auto store and buy a stethoscope .



Roger that... wife is a nurse and we have one of n the house. Will try that. The spindle really does feel solid. I used full force back and forth and feel no slip or movement. However I’ll listen with a stethoscope. Thanks Again!


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## Nogoingback

The Logan 200 has two bearings in the headstock.  The bearing on the chuck end is a double row bearing with preload built in.  The other one is a normal single row bearing.  Unlike many lathes, they cannot be adjusted.  If the bearings are shot, they have to be replaced.  The
original double row part was made by New Departure and is no longer available.  Logan sells a replacement part which if I remember correctly costs about $200.00.  Its my understanding that these bearings cannot be purchased over the counter from a bearing supply house and there is no cross reference to the original New Departure bearing. 

Some folks have suceeded in cleaning out the old grease and repacking those bearings, but if it's worn out it will need to be replaced.


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## Tozguy

SuperTroye said:


> Roger that... wife is a nurse and we have one of n the house. Will try that. The spindle really does feel solid. I used full force back and forth and feel no slip or movement. However I’ll listen with a stethoscope. Thanks Again!


This tool is relatively inexpensive and very useful. You will hear things that you can not see or feel. May I suggest you get your own to hang in the shop. That way the hospital won't be infected with chips and your lathe won't catch the flu. 
https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-52500-Mechanics-Stethoscope/dp/B0002SQYSM


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## Kernbigo

don't work on the chuck tell you get the spindle to run true, your wasting your time, you could put a brand new chuck on a spindle that runs out and have the same thing.


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## Richard King 2

Nogoingback said:


> The Logan 200 has two bearings in the headstock.  The bearing on the chuck end is a double row bearing with preload built in.  The other one is a normal single row bearing.  Unlike many lathes, they cannot be adjusted.  If the bearings are shot, they have to be replaced.  The
> original double row part was made by New Departure and is no longer available.  Logan sells a replacement part which if I remember correctly costs about $200.00.  Its my understanding that these bearings cannot be purchased over the counter from a bearing supply house and there is no cross reference to the original New Departure bearing.
> 
> Some folks have suceeded in cleaning out the old grease and repacking those bearings, but if it's worn out it will need to be replaced.



After reading your great info I went back and looked at the Logan manual and they do say the spindle bearings are special pre-loaded.   Onething for discussion though this spindle was removed by the former owner and we need to wonder if the other guy bought the bearings from Logan or off the shelf.  Nogoing, do you know if Logan used some sort of engraved mark on the bearings?  I have seen this in Hardinges where they mark the bearings by adding a hand engraved letter/number after the factory  number  usually it has a dash  -- then athe engraved number.

Another thing if the other guy did not tighten the adjusting nut holding the front bearing tight to the spindle or the front bearing retainer cover he put way to much silicon gasket material..the outer race could be loose.

Bottom line is it could be as simple as lousy install of the new bearings..  Another thing Nogoing do you know if the factory bearings have a TIR * (total indicator run-out) mark on them and is the spindle marked with a  - 0 - signifying spindle max TIR .

You sound as if you have replaced those bearings before and know your "stuff"  thanks for your help.    Rich


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## SuperTroye

Kernbigo said:


> don't work on the chuck tell you get the spindle to run true, your wasting your time, you could put a brand new chuck on a spindle that runs out and have the same thing.



Understood... waiting for dial test indicator to arrive.  Then I will get any runout sorted out.


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## Richard King 2

SuperTroye said:


> Understood... waiting for dial test indicator to arrive.  Then I will get any runout sorted out.



I would not turn on the spindle when measuring the taper.  You could wear a flat spot on the stem.  In grinding shops that do that they use a small piece of  nylon attached to the stem.  I have a picture of that someplace.  Just need to figure out how to download them on here again.


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## SuperTroye

Richard King 2 said:


> After reading your great info I went back and looked at the Logan manual and they do say the spindle bearings are special pre-loaded.   Onething for discussion though this spindle was removed by the former owner and we need to wonder if the other guy bought the bearings from Logan or off the shelf.  Nogoing, do you know if Logan used some sort of engraved mark on the bearings?  I have seen this in Hardinges where they mark the bearings by adding a hand engraved letter/number after the factory  number  usually it has a dash  -- then athe engraved number.
> 
> Another thing if the other guy did not tighten the adjusting nut holding the front bearing tight to the spindle or the front bearing retainer cover he put way to much silicon gasket material..the outer race could be loose.
> 
> Bottom line is it could be as simple as lousy install of the new bearings..  Another thing Nogoing do you know if the factory bearings have a TIR * (total indicator run-out) mark on them and is the spindle marked with a  - 0 - signifying spindle max TIR .
> 
> You sound as if you have replaced those bearings before and know your "stuff"  thanks for your help.    Rich



Here is a video of the bearing. It looks like the original to me? So, I don't know if he changed the back one? Anyways, if any of the Logan gurus recognize this bearing and can confirm it is the original that would be awesome.


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## Richard King 2

I highly doubt Logan painted the surface under the retaining ring and it would rest on metal to metal Read through that section in the Logan book where they talk about removing the the bearings.   Also the bearing in the manual doesn't have a retaining ring and the one in the book has grease cover rings.   Does your manual show the snap ring?

You  have the front cover that covers up that bearing right?  Part # 194 on spindle drawing .http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2093/3353.pdf

that paint on the headstock on machines is not normal.  How about taking a video of the complete headstock, far right and top with cover open.  direct camera so we can see where the bearing are.


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## Nogoingback

Richard King 2 said:


> After reading your great info I went back and looked at the Logan manual and they do say the spindle bearings are special pre-loaded.   Onething for discussion though this spindle was removed by the former owner and we need to wonder if the other guy bought the bearings from Logan or off the shelf.  Nogoing, do you know if Logan used some sort of engraved mark on the bearings?  I have seen this in Hardinges where they mark the bearings by adding a hand engraved letter/number after the factory  number  usually it has a dash  -- then athe engraved number.
> 
> Another thing if the other guy did not tighten the adjusting nut holding the front bearing tight to the spindle or the front bearing retainer cover he put way to much silicon gasket material..the outer race could be loose.
> 
> Bottom line is it could be as simple as lousy install of the new bearings..  Another thing Nogoing do you know if the factory bearings have a TIR * (total indicator run-out) mark on them and is the spindle marked with a  - 0 - signifying spindle max TIR .
> 
> You sound as if you have replaced those bearings before and know your "stuff"  thanks for your help.    Rich



Richard, I'm not aware that the Logan bearings were graded or marked for TIR.  When I replaced mine, the part I removed
was an original New Departure bearing and it wasn't marked other than the part number.  If the bearing was replaced with a similar over the counter bearing i suppose that would explain the runout, but of course the only way to find out is to pull the spindle and see how it's marked. 

If the bearing isn't secured to the spindle, I would think that would be indicated by longitudinal movement in the spindle, not runout in the bearing.  The snap ring in the bearing is held in place by the outer cover which is secured to the headstock with three screws.

It seems to me that if the double row bearing is an original New Departure part it could simply be worn out.  Logan 200's
were built in the 1940's, so depending on the s/n, that bearing could be 75 years old.  In any case, removing the spindle is the only way to find out.


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## Nogoingback

Richard King 2 said:


> I highly doubt Logan painted the surface under the retaining ring and it would rest on metal to metal Read through that section in the Logan book where they talk about removing the the bearings.   Also the bearing in the manual doesn't have a retaining ring and the one in the book has grease cover rings.   Does your manual show the snap ring?
> 
> You  have the front cover that covers up that bearing right?  Part # 194 on spindle drawing .http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2093/3353.pdf
> 
> that paint on the headstock on machines is not normal.  How about taking a video of the complete headstock, far right and top with cover open.  direct camera so we can see where the bearing are.



The snap ring is normal for the Model 200.  I seem to remember that later lathes had a different arrangement.  Mine was built in 1944 and it has one.

My original bearing had a grease seal on one side only.  The new, Logan supplied replacement had grease seals on both sides.


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## Nogoingback

SuperTroye said:


> Here is a video of the bearing. It looks like the original to me? So, I don't know if he changed the back one? Anyways, if any of the Logan gurus recognize this bearing and can confirm it is the original that would be awesome.





SuperTroye said:


> Here is a video of the bearing. It looks like the original to me? So, I don't know if he changed the back one? Anyways, if any of the Logan gurus recognize this bearing and can confirm it is the original that would be awesome.



It looks like an original bearing given the fact that has it has a snap ring, but the only way to confirm it is to pull the spindle.  Did the seller tell you which bearing was changed?  If it was the other bearing, that wouldn't be a surprise.  It's nothing special: just an over the counter single row ball bearing.  I'm traveling for work and won't be home for a couple of days.  When I get home, I'll let you know exactly how the old bearing was marked: I kept it.

Another thing I noticed in you vid is that the motor is jumping around a bit.  You might want to check that the bolt that tensions the belt between the motor and countershaft is secured with 2 nuts and they are both tight.


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## SuperTroye

Ok I don't remember which bearing he replaced, but looking through the box of stuff there is a replacement for the front bearing. So, it wasn't the front. It must have been the back. Not to veer too far off topic, but I realize this isn't the proper, preloaded, $200 replacement from Logan. The PO must have bought it because he thought it would work. So, the original bearing is still on the front.


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## SuperTroye

Nogoingback said:


> Another thing I noticed in you vid is that the motor is jumping around a bit.  You might want to check that the bolt that tensions the belt between the motor and countershaft is secured with 2 nuts and they are both tight.



Yes, I need to realign the motor pulley with the countershaft pulley. When I got it, the motor was mounted backwards, had the wrong pulley and many bolts were missing. But somehow it ran and I was in a rush and didnt have the experience to spot it. So, I've gone over the machine and making many things right. Then I'm gonna sell it


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## Richard King 2

That is the worse class bearing.  I just checked this chart.  Abec 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 is the best or lowest amount of run out.
Scroll down to Table IA and look at Bore diameter.  and then over to Radial Run-out  look at the 5 Th one down..30mm or 1.811bore...max run out is .0006" if I am reading it right.  So a worn improperly mounted bearing.  Improper meaning painted blue headstock where it should be bare iron .  I would have thought the new bearing would be a # 7 or a #5 Abec.   So pack the bearings with some good grease 30% full and assemble it if your going to sell it.   Don't fill the bearing more then 30% it gets hot.

https://www.astbearings.com/bearing-tolerances-precision-levels.html


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## SuperTroye

Richard King 2 said:


> That is the worse class bearing.  I just checked this chart.  Abec 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 is the best or lowest amount of run out.
> Scroll down to Table IA and look at Bore diameter.  and then over to Radial Run-out  look at the 5 Th one down..30mm or 1.811bore...max run out is .0006" if I am reading it right.  So a worn improperly mounted bearing.  Improper meaning painted blue headstock where it should be bare iron .  I would have thought the new bearing would be a # 7 or a #5 Abec.   So pack the bearings with some good grease 30% full and assemble it if your going to sell it.   Don't fill the bearing more then 30% it gets hot.
> 
> https://www.astbearings.com/bearing-tolerances-precision-levels.html



Richard, can't tell you enough, Thank You for your advice. 

I will remove the spindle and strip the paint under the bearing guard where it should be bare metal. Then pack the bearings with proper grease.


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## Nogoingback

The spindle is removed left to right after removing the "nut" off the end,  removing the set screws (including the one on the bull gear) and
of course the plate on the chuck end.  There is a keyway for the bull gear.  The key needs to pass through a slot in a dust shield in the
right hand side of the headstock behind the bearing.   If you don't line them up, the key will damage the dust shield.  The bearings are a light press fit into the
headstock, but sometimes it's difficult to get things moving. Just make sure that you don't miss a setscrew.  When I did mine I turned an
aluminum "button" that fit into the end of the spindle, and then got it moving with a dead blow (plastic) hammer.  That way I didn't endanger
the threads on the end of the spindle.


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## SuperTroye

Ok I got my dial test indicator. I set it up as shown in the video below and it looks like max runout is 0.0005. So, it's presumed the spindle is good?






I ordered a Phase II quick change tool post. Comes in tomorrow. Need to order a boring bar to complete the backplate.


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## Rooster

You should check the face of the spindle register, it looked like there was a wobble.


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## mikey

Looks pretty good. I suggest you choke up on the indicator arm; having it extended like that can cause error just on the method alone. Fold the arm up tight and you'll see less bouncing of the needle and have better accuracy. Try to do all these checks with the lathe warmed up - run it for 20 minutes at medium speed and then take your readings. I also suggest you check at two or three parts of the spindle taper to be sure your readings are consistent. If they are, then you can be fairly confident that what you see is what you have. 

Once you know what the spindle run out is, compare it to the spindle register that locates your chucks. If that reads the same then you have what you have. As for whether or not 0.0005" is acceptable, it probably is for an older lathe like this. Many newer lathes (and some old ones, too) have run out in the 0.0000" - 0.0002" range.


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## Richard King 2

Did you scrape off the paint like we talked about?  Did you grease the bearings?  They look cleaned with no grease in photo's.   I use Mobil #28 or 32 grease when I pack bearings.  The major issue you have is the NO undercut in the chuck right?  t looks as if there is a burr or crud inside the spindle when it runs so good and all of a sudden it jumps  a couple of tenths.  Use some scotch brite in hole.  Rotate spindle BY HAND and NOT UNDER POWER.  I have heard horror stories about get fingers ripped off running under power.


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## SuperTroye

Richard King 2 said:


> Did you scrape off the paint like we talked about?  Did you grease the bearings?  They look cleaned with no grease in photo's.   I use Mobil #28 or 32 grease when I pack bearings.  The major issue you have is the NO undercut in the chuck right?  t looks as if there is a burr or crud inside the spindle when it runs so good and all of a sudden it jumps  a couple of tenths.  Use some scotch brite in hole.  Rotate spindle BY HAND and NOT UNDER POWER.  I have heard horror stories about get fingers ripped off running under power.



Ok no I haven't scraped the paint yet. That is this weekend's project. I got the indicator a day earlier than I thought and rushed out to check it. Yeah I wondered about cleaning up the spindle with a scotch brite. I figure it being dirty was causing the needle to jump. However at this point I am a lot happier knowing there isn't anything "wrong" with the spindle and look forward to getting it prepped for making chips (just in someone else's garage


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## SuperTroye

Rooster said:


> You should check the face of the spindle register, it looked like there was a wobble.



10-4 coming in next video after I clean the spindle.


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## SuperTroye

mikey said:


> Looks pretty good. I suggest you choke up on the indicator arm; having it extended like that can cause error just on the method alone. Fold the arm up tight and you'll see less bouncing of the needle and have better accuracy. Try to do all these checks with the lathe warmed up - run it for 20 minutes at medium speed and then take your readings. I also suggest you check at two or three parts of the spindle taper to be sure your readings are consistent. If they are, then you can be fairly confident that what you see is what you have.
> 
> Once you know what the spindle run out is, compare it to the spindle register that locates your chucks. If that reads the same then you have what you have. As for whether or not 0.0005" is acceptable, it probably is for an older lathe like this. Many newer lathes (and some old ones, too) have run out in the 0.0000" - 0.0002" range.



Awesome... many thanks for pointing that out. I also wondered about my measuring technique. All of this gear is new to me and just learning how to use it. I suspect after the spindle is cleaned, I strip the paint on the headstock where it mounts, and I re-measure it will be closer to the 0.0002 that you mention.


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## SuperTroye

Small update: got the spindle out, paint removed and did a little inspection. While the spindle is out I'm gonna throw on a serpentine belt. Anyone who has done this can you tell me the length? The only info I could find was a Dayco 5080400 Serpentine Belt that is 40.63".


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## Bob Korves

SuperTroye said:


> Small update: got the spindle out, paint removed and did a little inspection. While the spindle is out I'm gonna throw on a serpentine belt. Anyone who has done this can you tell me the length? The only info I could find was a Dayco 5080400 Serpentine Belt that is 40.63".


Sort of hard to do at this point, but a seamstress tape wrapped around the pulleys does a good job of measuring the needed belt length, just subtract enough for tensioning or block the motor side pulley where you want it under tension and then use the tape.  Even a piece of string and a tape measure will work.


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## Terrywerm

I cannot tell you the exact length, but I have a Micro-V AT 25-080400 serpentine belt from NAPA on my Logan 200, running with the ribs against the pulleys. It works very well.


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## SuperTroye

Ok I can't win for losing here. Since there was no other usable chuck included with this lathe, I bought one off eBay. An old Buck chuck "Made for Logan" with high confidence it would be a good fit. Turns out with this chuck I am still not able to screw the chuck all the way to the shoulder. It will thread just fine on my South Bend. So, I measured the spindle register diameter and it looks like it something like 1.52", not 1.50 as advertised? Is my spindle special, or ... ? Can someone else who has a 10" Logan measure their spindle register? My goal is to turn a temporary spacer to bore the original backplate, but now I am back to the starting line. See video for details. Thank you all for sticking with me.


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## JR49

SuperTroye said:


> Is my spindle special, or ... ? Can someone else who has a 10" Logan measure their spindle register?


SuperTroye, Been following this post, and probably should have spoken up sooner.  I have a 12" logan, so wasn't sure If they were all the same, but your last post tells me they are.  4 years ago when I got my first lathe (had never even seen one up close before), the logan 2557, it came with a 6" 3 jaw chuck. Was recuperating from hip surgery, so spent a lot of time reading everything I could find about my lathe.  I happened to read an add on a used tool site selling chuck adapter plates.  It said that there 2 1/4 " X 8 threaded plates would fit all lathes with 2 1/4" threaded spindles EXCEPT LOGANS, and for Logans the adapter would simply have to be screwed on backwards (with a spacer to seat against the  spindle register face and adapter plate), and a few thousandths taken off the ID of the plate register.  As soon as I could get around again, I went out and checked, and sure enough my chuck was hitting the horizontal part of the register rather than sliding on to it, just like yours.  When taking chuck and adapter plate apart to turn the register I saw that the plate was stamped Southbend which explained why it didn't screw on all the way.  I didn't respond sooner because figured it was only on the larger spindles, but apparently they did this on all there lathes.  Don't be afraid to do this !! This is the very first thing I ever did on any machine tool in my life, and it came out perfect, thanks of coarse, to the great guys on this forum who talked me through every step. JUST REMEMBER, make sure that both ends of the spacer you make are true to each other, as you can't trust the threads to hold the plate true.  If there is anything I forgot please ask, and sorry I waited so long to respond.  Happy Machining,   JR49


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## T. J.

Interesting. My spindle register measures 1.4974". The counterbored area on my Buck/Logan chuck is 1.519". 

Maybe you got unlucky enough to get a spindle and chuck that were on opposite ends of the tolerances; or possibly out of spec?


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## SuperTroye

T. J. said:


> Interesting. My spindle register measures 1.4974". The counterbored area on my Buck/Logan chuck is 1.519".
> 
> Maybe you got unlucky enough to get a spindle and chuck that were on opposite ends of the tolerances; or possibly out of spec?



My guess is the only the spindle is out of spec... it chuck fits just fine on my SB.


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## SuperTroye

JR49 said:


> Don't be afraid to do this !! This is the very first thing I ever did on any machine tool in my life, and it came out perfect, thanks of coarse, to the great guys on this forum who talked me through every step. JUST REMEMBER, make sure that both ends of the spacer you make are true to each other, as you can't trust the threads to hold the plate true.



JR, thanks for the info and sharing your experience.  The issue is I don't have a proper working chuck to make a spacer. Sort of a chicken-and-egg, catch-22 scenario. Maybe I'll just turn down the spindle a few thou, that'll solve the problem


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## Terrywerm

Troye, I will get you dimensions of my spindle yet this evening. I don't think yours is special or anything like that, but rather that you ended up with a back plate that is not machined for a Logan despite having the correct thread. I will get pics of my spindle and of one of my chucks and post them in the next little while. I've got a couple of other things that need my attention first, but I will get this info for you as well.


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## Terrywerm

Okay, here are the photos and dimensions that I promised you. You will see that my spindle looks just like yours and that the chuck backplate has a relief section where the thread is cut away.




*Photo 1: Not the best photo I've ever seen of a spindle.*





_*Photo 2: Photo of the back side of the backing plate on my 6" three jaw chuck. The ring where the backplate butts up against the spindle is clearly visible.*_





*Figure 1: Drawing of Logan 200 spindle with dimensions on my lathe.*


Since the drawing saved at such a small size, here are the dimensions listed:
Diameter of spindle threads and area without threads:  1.504"
Length of spindle at thread diameter: 1.009"
Distance from registration boss to first thread: 0.217"


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## Briney Eye

The serpentine belt that I put on mine is marked 6PK1015 400K6.  I think I picked it up at Auto Zone.  It's a perfect fit and works extremely well.


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## SuperTroye

Briney Eye said:


> The serpentine belt that I put on mine is marked 6PK1015 400K6.  I think I picked it up at Auto Zone.  It's a perfect fit and works extremely well.



Thanks Briney Eye, I see the consensus is a 40" belt. I got the one Terry recommended with 8 ribs and it really makes things quiet.


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## SuperTroye

TerryWerm said:


> Since the drawing saved at such a small size, here are the dimensions listed:
> Diameter of spindle threads and area without threads:  1.504"
> Length of spindle at thread diameter: 1.009"
> Distance from registration boss to first thread: 0.217"



Terry, thanks so much for the measurements. I measured mine and the spindle register is 1.529" and the thread is 1.490". So, comparing that to yours and T.J.'s I would say it's a lot bigger. See video. Without machining, I would assume at this point no chuck will fit. The Buck/Logan chuck is 1.511"

I am seriously considering turning it down. Bad choice?


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## Terrywerm

_Don't machine the spindle, it is fine._ You need to machine your chuck backplates to fit your spindle, which is standard procedure.  You always fit the tooling to the machine, not the other way around.  If you machine the spindle to where one chuck fits properly, you might have a faceplate or something else that will not fit properly.  Look at the back of your chucks, they should have a recess in the back like the photo I posted. That recess is machined to fit a specific lathe, in the case of the chuck in the photo, it is machined to fit mine. Contrary to what some believe, threaded mount chucks do not all interchange perfectly with just any old machine that has the correct thread.


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## Terrywerm

If you plan to keep those chucks to use with a lathe other than your Logan, do not machine them to fit the Logan.


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## Terrywerm

Okay, I went back through this thread and looked at your video of your chuck backplate.  There is a relief cut in your backplate, but it appears that it is not large enough in diameter. What you need to do is:

Remove the backplate from the chuck again.
Mount the backplate onto the spindle backwards  - with the register counterbore towards the tailstock. You will also need a spacer sleeve with parallel faces between the spindle boss and the front face of the backplate.
Bore out the counterbore just large enough that it will fit onto your spindle.
Once it fits properly on your spindle, you can mount the backplate onto your chuck again.When you mount the chuck to the backplate, barely snug the bolts
Mount the whole thing on the lathe, getting the backplate snugly tightened up against the spindle. Snug, not tight!
Set up your dial indicator to run on the outside of the chuck body.
Rotate the chuck by hand to find out where you are off.
Try lightly tapping the chuck body at the appropriate 'high points' to get it centered with the spindle.
Once you have it properly positioned, tighten the bolts that hold the chuck to the backplate.
Keep in mind that backplates also have a registration land on them for centering the chuck body. In many cases the registration land is a poor or slightly loose fit to the chuck body and you will have a little bit of room available to try to center the chuck on the backplate.

Another way to center the chuck body on the backplate is to mount a truly round rod in the chuck jaws and indicate off of that instead of the chuck body. This is generally a more accurate method, but due to the way that scroll chucks wear, it is only accurate for the diameter of the rod that you used to indicate with.


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## JR49

TerryWerm said:


> Mount the backplate onto the spindle backwards - with the register counterbore towards the tailstock.


            TerryWerm,   I agree with your entire process, except one thing.  99.9% of the time, I will certainly defer to your expertise over my very limited experience, but I am sure he needs to have a spacer with parallel (true?) ends to span the distance between the spindle register and the front (which is backwards) of the backplate.  Unless of course, you think the backplate will screw on far enough to mate up to the register without the spacer.  Otherwise, you're depending on the threads alone to hold the backplate true, which aint gonna happen.   Please correct me if i'm wrong



SuperTroye said:


> The issue is I don't have a proper working chuck to make a spacer


                   SuperTroye,   When I made my spacer, I had no other chuck, like you.  I found a piece of iron pipe that would slide over the spindle threads and hit up against the register, and cut it long enough fill the gap between register and how far I could screw on the backplate without damaging the threads. then I used a file to trim the two sawcut ends until I could put a machinist square all around the circumference of the pipe,and see that the ends were square?, parallel?, true? (whichever word fits).  It took a little time to get it perfect, but was worth it in the runout reduction of the chuck.  Oh, should have said, leave some extra length in the spacer for filing it true.  Good luck,  JR49


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## Nogoingback

Supertroye, I think I still have the spacer I turned for mine.  If you want, I'll send it to you. I'm traveling for work so it would be a few days before I could get to it.  PM me if you're interested.


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## Richard King 2

Sorry I haven't written much.  I'm in Texas teaching a class...   No time to read or write.   Have to go now.  Class ends tomorrow and then I'm driving home over 3 days....The old pro's on here have you under control.   I am glad to see your scraped off the paint.    I agree don't cut the spinde.  Ruin something good to make a chuck fit is not cool.   The low grade bearings too....you can't expect perfect or make a silk purse out of a sows ear.


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## SuperTroye

Nogoingback said:


> Supertroye, I think I still have the spacer I turned for mine.  If you want, I'll send it to you. I'm traveling for work so it would be a few days before I could get to it.  PM me if you're interested.



PM Sent, thank you very much...


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## SuperTroye

Richard King 2 said:


> Sorry I haven't written much.  I'm in Texas teaching a class...   No time to read or write.   Have to go now.  Class ends tomorrow and then I'm driving home over 3 days....The old pro's on here have you under control.   I am glad to see your scraped off the paint.    I agree don't cut the spinde.  Ruin something good to make a chuck fit is not cool.   The low grade bearings too....you can't expect perfect or make a silk purse out of a sows ear.



Thanks for checking in... I think at this point I can handle the backplace on the small Bison chuck, but at this point I still need to enlarge the register on the Buck/Logan chuck. I think I may see if my local machine shop can do that one. Many thanks to all who have written and helped...


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## Terrywerm

JR49, you are so right, a spacer with parallel faces is necessary between the spindle and the backing plate when it is mounted backwards on the spindle. I simply forgot to include it in the instructions,  thanks for pointing it out!


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