# What Beginners Mill to Buy



## Capt45 (Jan 17, 2020)

I have a hankering and none of the skill to own a Mill.  I'm also limited on budget (~$1700).  Suggestions would be appreciated.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 17, 2020)

You came to the right place , we all love to spend " others " money !  What are your needs would be the first question .

For $1700 , you could buy a decent used knee mill or I'm guessing a new smaller mill . There are plenty of members who have and support the PM models . I'm sure they'll chime in soon .


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## Capt45 (Jan 17, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> You came to the right place , we all love to spend " others " money !  What are your needs would be the first question .
> 
> For $1700 , you could buy a decent used knee mill or I'm guessing a new smaller mill . There are plenty of members who have and support the PM models . I'm sure they'll chime in soon .


Totally a newb concerning a Mill, but I have a PM Lathe; a 1024 which is adequate for what I do. I’d like to be able to Mill simple stuff such as slots, flats and V’s. One of the first things would be to make some carriage stops, etc.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 18, 2020)

Hopefully some PM mill owners will be on soon , they can give you the info such as sizes and prices etc .


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## Aukai (Jan 18, 2020)

The small ones are not big enough, but you can go too big.
Get the biggest square column mill, well cared for used, or new you can fit.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 18, 2020)

Small Enco knee mill with DRO Nevada City CA $2000
					

For those looking for a "1/2 Bridgeport" size knee mill, this might work for you. I think this is basically the same mill that Grizzly sells as the G0822 so very similar in size to a Clausing 8520 or Rockwell 21-100...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Here ya go , something along these lines ?


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## ezduzit (Jan 18, 2020)

Watch for a quality used machine, in excellent condition, with comprehensive tooling included.


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## Capt45 (Jan 18, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> Small Enco knee mill with DRO Nevada City CA $2000
> 
> 
> For those looking for a "1/2 Bridgeport" size knee mill, this might work for you. I think this is basically the same mill that Grizzly sells as the G0822 so very similar in size to a Clausing 8520 or Rockwell 21-100...
> ...


That would already be mine if it was closer.


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## Aukai (Jan 18, 2020)

If someone would buy mine, I'd be shipping it.....
Get as much tooling, and metrology in any used machine deal. If you don't have it now, it will add up quickly. Do not fall for the quick, and cheap stuff in that department too, as you will more than likely have to buy it again. I found this site after my machines, your lucky, and have been following along, so you have an idea already. Good luck


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## derfatdutchman (Jan 18, 2020)

If at all possible stay away from round column mills. I suffered with one for 25 years, before I got fed up and upgraded to a knee mill. A square column of a small knee mill will serve you much better.


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## devils4ever (Jan 19, 2020)

I guess it depends on your needs, but I was in the same situation a few months back. I had a Sherline, but it was way too small for the stuff I want to mill now.

A lot of members recommended a used Bridgeport type mill, but I'm a newbie and I wouldn't know if a used mill was too worn out plus I could never get it into my basement.

So, after much research I decided on a PM25-MV. I'm completely happy with this purchase. The owner of PM seems to bend backwards to support purchasers.

As for tooling, it adds up fast. My Kurt vise alone was over $600. Then, I added collets, drill chuck, fly cutter, boring bar, etc. You get the idea. I don't even want to think how much I spend so far.


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## dbb-the-bruce (Jan 19, 2020)

About a year ago I was at the same place and settled on a Little Machine Shop HiTorque bench top mill. All in all, I've been pretty happy with it. If you go for a bench top mill, stay away from round column (as mentioned above).

I think with any new affordable mill, you are going to end up making some tweaks / mods / improvements.
Plan on spending at least half as much again on tooling etc. You can get started with minimum kit, but will end up with more quickly. Probably best to not try to "buy it all at once" - but don't try to suffer through working with just what you've got. The point being you are going to end up with a lot more kit if you stick with the hobby - don't skimp other than being constrained by budget.

Same goes for size of the mill - get as much as you can afford and will fit in your space. There are some really inexpensive micro-mills out there that people love but they are sized for making pretty tiny stuff (small model trains/engines etc.)

I spent about $2500 on my mill and probably another $2000 on kit.

I did look for used first - If I was less constrained by shop space and my ability to move equipment, I could have gotten a lot more mill used. Small bench top mills are hard to find used, at least in my area.

If you go the used route, try to find an experienced home machinist to help you find and evaluate used machines. Also try to get as much kit with the machine as possible - look for someone selling or downsizing their shop. Home shop sales are probably better than a machining business closing or selling old equipment. Machine shops are in the business of making money and tend to "use equipment up" - but you can also find a "tired" machine that is a great deal if you are willing to tune it up a bit.

You can get lots of advice from people on this forum - we love looking at sales of used stuff and "spending other peoples money".

Good luck and keep us posted!

-Dave


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## Capt45 (Jan 19, 2020)

Thanks for the input fellas; I am leaning towards a Benchtop Mill because of space constraints AND for the fact that I don't envision the need for a larger machine.  Now, if a used Bridgeport presented itself for a reasonable price and in a close location I'd consider that as well.


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## Winegrower (Jan 19, 2020)

If I had a nickel for every post where they admit their mini-mill was too small and they now need a bigger one, I could probably buy a scissors knurler for my knee mill.   Better make it a dollar.

I say, buy your last mill first.


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## Capt45 (Jan 19, 2020)

Good advice Winegrower, but I'm at the point that I'm locking in on a new Mill AND I'd like input concerning the Grizzly G0704 7" x 27" 1 HP Mill/Drill with Stand ?


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## epanzella (Jan 19, 2020)

I bought the HF round column mill for $960 with a coupon. It wasn't too hard to come up with an indexing system to get around the round column and I'm happy with the machine. It's no Bridgeport but it beats the hell out of milling on my lathe like I've been doing for 20 years.


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## JPigg55 (Jan 19, 2020)

Finding a used one in your budget would be the best option if it comes with tooling.
It's very easy to spend as much or more on tooling as the mill itself, collets, cutters, vise, etc.
One that has a DRO would even be better. While not a necessity, it is close to being so.


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## bakrch (Jan 19, 2020)

If going benchtop,  try to go square column at least RF-45 size class.  Most who go BF-20/G0704/PM25 progress to it anyway (or at least want to). Not so much for the larger work envelope, more for the mass/rigidity.

Sure it is more expensive up front, but you will save in the long run.

As was said above, buy your last mill first if you have the floor space for it.  Just my .02c


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## derfatdutchman (Jan 19, 2020)

The G0704 & G0759 both have a similar problem plastic drive gears. These are prone to failure. Now there are conversion kits, but when you add in the cost it would be better to go with a different machine.  Precision Matthews, Little Machine Shop, DRO Pros sell similar machines with belt drive that eliminates this.problem.


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## BGHansen (Jan 19, 2020)

As mentioned above, EVERYONE here loves to spend your money!  A lot depends on what you want to do (as mentioned above).  You can do little stuff on a bigger mill, but it can be really tough to do the converse.  I'd get the biggest your shop can handle.  I've had a Grizzly round column mill (~8 x 30 table, 700 lbs.), have a Jet JVM-830 small knee mill (8 x 30 table, ~1000 lbs.) an Atlas MFB horizontal mill (350 lbs.), a Bridgeport (9 x 42 table, ~2000 lbs.), and a Tormach 1100 (9 x 24 table, ~1300 lbs.).  Bought the Grizzly new, others were used.

New is very nice as you will have a pristine table and most likely no hidden issues.  However, they typically do not include much if any tooling.  You can easily spend half again as much on tooling:  Vise, clamping kit, collets, edge-finder, parallels, end mills, drill chuck, measuring tools, etc.  Most of the time used mills come with some tooling.

If you are looking for used, hit the web site www.searchtempest.com.  It's a Craig's List/ eBay/ Amazon search engine.  Give it a search title, price range, and max drive distance and you'll have plenty of options.  I listed a few in the area around you (give or take a state).  Some around your budget, some a bit higher.  

Personally, you can't beat a Bridgeport-sized knee mill.  But it's literally a ton of iron so you'll need the infrastructure to move it.  There are a plethora of parts and accessories out there.  The market didn't lead to dozens of import knock-offs without good reason.  BP-sized machines are generally 3 phase power, so budget another $100 - $300 for a static phase converter or Variable Frequency Drive unit.  Good Hunting!

Bruce

Decent looking Enco small BP clone for $4K.  No tooling, but power feeds on X, Y and Z plus a 2-axis old DRO








						2001 Enco mill milling machine.
					

2001 enco knee milling machine. Can load it on your trailer, 1,750lb. Coolant pump were removed. 3ph motor, can be running on single phase with a converter. X Y digital read out. Z axis read out. 3...



					grandisland.craigslist.org
				





Another Enco small BP close for $3K.  Comes with a vise, collets, clamping kit, 3 face mills, 2 drill chucks, power feed on the X and an old 2-axis DRO.








						Enco Milling Machine - tools - by owner - sale
					

Enco Milling Machine 8" x 36" Table X Axis Power Feed 10 Spindle Speeds, Two Speed Motor Low Range...



					semo.craigslist.org
				





Nice looking real-deal Bridgeport with a 1 1/2 HP variable speed head, $3500.  Comes with power feed on the X, no other tooling though it has a drill chuck in the spindle.








						Very nice Bridgeport mill
					

Nice little 9 x 36 Bridgeport milling machine. Variable speed head great looking hard chrome ways power feed automatic lube.



					stlouis.craigslist.org
				





Nice looking Bridgeport 1 HP step-pulley machine for $1500 (same seller as above).  Power feed on X, drill chuck in the spindle.








						Bridgeport type mill
					

Nice milling machine has power feed runs well.



					stlouis.craigslist.org


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## ezduzit (Jan 19, 2020)

"...*I don't have the room for real machines, I've contemplated getting a bench top mill and a small lathe from harbor freight*..."

"This is pretty much verbatim what one hears several times per week on the hobby sites. Seems like it is more important for total newbies to immediately purchase some cheap imported trappings of what they think a machinist should have, something that requires no more effort or learning on their part than to simply make one phone call and plunk down a credit card, than to seek out quality that will last."

Above quote from a recent post on a professional machinist forum kinda sums up why so many start out with the wrong machines.


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## DavidR8 (Jan 19, 2020)

ezduzit said:


> "...*I don't have the room for real machines, I've contemplated getting a bench top mill and a small lathe from harbor freight*..."
> 
> "This is pretty much verbatim what one hears several times per week on the hobby sites. Seems like it is more important for total newbies to immediately purchase some cheap imported trappings of what they think a machinist should have, something that requires no more effort or learning on their part than to simply make one phone call and plunk down a credit card, than to seek out quality that will last."
> 
> Above quote from a recent post on a professional machinist forum kinda sums up why so many start out with the wrong machines.



For clarity, you are the author of that quote. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ezduzit (Jan 19, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> For clarity, you are the author of that quote.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Please stop stalking me.


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## Capt45 (Jan 19, 2020)

ezduzit said:


> "...*I don't have the room for real machines, I've contemplated getting a bench top mill and a small lathe from harbor freight*..."
> 
> "This is pretty much verbatim what one hears several times per week on the hobby sites. Seems like it is more important for total newbies to immediately purchase some cheap imported trappings of what they think a machinist should have, something that requires no more effort or learning on their part than to simply make one phone call and plunk down a credit card, than to seek out quality that will last."
> 
> Above quote from a recent post on a professional machinist forum kinda sums up why so many start out with the wrong machines.


Don't think I made that remark or even a similar remark.  Your post is apparently based in ignorance because I simply stated I DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY , nothing about space.  BTW, I'm leaning toward the PM25 .


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## JPigg55 (Jan 19, 2020)

Two more factors to consider. Distance you're willing to travel to acquire one and if you are willing/able to deal with 3 phase or not.
Lost Creek Machine in Ottawa, Illinois carries a big selection of used equipment. I even see a couple Bridgeport mills in your price range.
They have a good reputation, I've heard, and some machines come with tooling. I pretty sure their prices are negotiable as well.
Only issue is the 10 hour drive from you to them. Here's their website link:
http://www.lostcreekmachine.com/


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## pontiac428 (Jan 21, 2020)

I'm inclined to spend your money Bruce's way (above).  If you go the knee mill route, no matter what happens you'll have a fair chance of recouping your investment if your feet go cold.  Not so with a new-purchased bench top mill.  The import mill size hierarchy in this context goes:  round column < square column < baby knee < small BPort.  The jump from round column to square column is small.  Some would argue the round column's double drive belts make it better than the square column's cheesy geared head.  I would argue that the baby knee is a better way to go, but some of them still have cheesy geared heads and it's not much of a step up from the square column, except that you get a working knee.  So, since we're inching toward $2k anyway, why not consider small (Series-I) Bridgeport clones (ABC, Acer, Sharp)?  They're not very big, and the tables are about the same size as the other mills mentioned.  The weight IIRC is under 1500 lbs until you get into Series-II and bigger mills, and they can be lightened to a manageable weight for moving by removing the head, beam, and table.  If you're willing to wait or maybe do some limited travel, your options really open up.


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## Capt45 (Jan 22, 2020)

Located a Series 1 Bridgeport and NO clones.  The Bridgeport was $3500; I'm not sure I'll live long enough to save that much.


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## epanzella (Jan 22, 2020)

When I was shopping for my first machine (lathe) every one told me that used American iron was a better value than a new Chicom machine. Well I bought a used Logan and beat my head against the wall for years trying to do even moderately accurate work on that machine. The bed was worn but I didn't have the experience to figure that out nor the knowledge to fix it. Tired of filing and sanding things to size I bought a new Grizzly G4003G. In a week I was getting great finishes and working to .001" was easy. My point is that things that work out well for an experienced machinist may not be the best move for a newby.


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## Capt45 (Jan 22, 2020)

That's a definite thought in the back of my mind.


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## Janderso (Jan 22, 2020)

Aukai said:


> The small ones are not big enough, but you can go too big.
> Get the biggest square column mill, well cared for used, or new you can fit.


That's why the Clausing 8520's are so darn popular.


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## Mitch Alsup (Jan 22, 2020)

epanzella said:


> When I was shopping for my first machine (lathe) every one told me that used American iron was a better value than a new Chicom machine. Well I bought a used Logan and beat my head against the wall for years trying to do even moderately accurate work on that machine. The bed was worn but I didn't have the experience to figure that out nor the knowledge to fix it. Tired of filing and sanding things to size I bought a new Grizzly G4003G. In a week I was getting great finishes and working to .001" was easy. My point is that things that what works out well for an experienced machinist may not be the best move for a newby.



Plus, when you buy a new machine, it is operational the day it arrives.
Many of the old machines need some kind of restoration work before they are safe to even power on.


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## Chewy (Jan 22, 2020)

Look at the PM 30-MV.  It has a little more Z distance then the 25.  Also more HP and more spindle travel.  The spindle travel is a big deal. 3" vs 2".  You will soon get tired of cranking when changing tools or drilling. If you can afford the extra money, you will be able to do just about anything you want with a 30.


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## Chewy (Jan 22, 2020)

By the way.  Buying the machine is the least expensive part of the deal.  You will soon find out that the tooling costs as much or more than the machine. If time is on your side and you can plan your projects several months in advance, at least at first, you can take advantage of good deals on Ebay & machinery sales. I am currently working on steam engines for this summer.  Finding plans, materials and seeing how I have to do the machining in order to make hold downs.


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