# Paid for Groovin!



## Doug Gray

I have a paying gig going through my humble shop right now. It involves putting  a vitaulic grooves in pipe stubs. I have 12 6" pipes to do and 8  4" pipes.

Thankfully all the stubs are only 8" long ,so i'm able to face the end with out using a steady rest.
Face one end
flip
Grab on the outside of the three jaw
gnaw/chatter out a groove with an Asian parting tool

I don't have a micrometer over 6" so I measure the groove diameter with old school calipers and transfer the measurement using digital caliper. The old school calipers are Starrett and they are a joy to use.

The Shars tool itself my be fair but the inserts I have are a PITA. The hole exercise is a massive chattery bell ringing session and my wife upstairs is starting to lose patience. (I offered ear plugs). The bungy does seam to help some.

Anyway I'm not complaining I would be in the shop doing something anyway, might as well get paid.

Thanks for looking.


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## Winegrower

That groove looks wide enough and deep enough maybe a turning insert would give a better cut.   Possibly use the grooving tool to clean up the edges if you need a clean transition?


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## extropic

Probably too late, but for next time.
Cut a plate (1/4"or thicker) 6" square would do, 60° center drill at center. Use as a push plate for safety and to damp the chatter (some).


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## Shootymacshootface

That's groovy!


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## Doug Gray

Winegrower said:


> That groove looks wide enough and deep enough maybe a turning insert would give a better cut. Possibly use the grooving tool to clean up the edges if you need a clean transition?


Your right Winegrower that's definitely an option.






extropic said:


> Probably too late, but for next time.
> Cut a plate (1/4"or thicker) 6" square would do, 60° center drill at center. Use as a push plate for safety and to damp the chatter (some).


This is a really good Idea, I hadn't thought of it. I'm thinking maybe a six inch square of 3/4" baltic birch ply(with a steel plate screwed on for centre). I bet this will help noise and chatter. Thanks extropic. Its not to late I have several of the six inchers left and eight 4"


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## macardoso

Every time I need to part or groove a hollow thin walled tube, it rings like a bell. Tried to turn an 8" diameter bronze pipe with 1/4" wall and you might have thought the nuke reactor in the next state over was sounding a siren.

Turning some wood plugs for the ends might help. Something that fits snugly and dampens the vibrations. Especially on the chuck side.

Nice work though, hobby paid jobs are fun.


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## NC Rick

I did a similar job this week although in aluminum and parting 1/2” long parts from 3” o.d. 3/8 wall. I made a plug for the tail stock as suggested above.  Im holding in machined soft jaws by an 1/8” grip on the OD and parting in auto-feed.


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## Doug Gray

NC Rick said:


> parting in auto-feed.


High pucker factor


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## markba633csi

Looks from the chatter marks you have some rigidity issues there- maybe need to snug up the gibs on the compound or slide
Also whatever you can do to reduce the stick-out of the tool will help
This would be a case for using backgears if your machine has them
-Mark


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## mattthemuppet2

maybe use a sharp insert (MGGN?) instead of the molded MGMN you have there? That would help with the chatter. I've also used a thick wooden stick held against the inside of a piece of pipe, that helps with the ringing and singing.

There's also funky stuff like cerrometal or the like, which you melt at low temperatures (100C?) and pour in.


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## NC Rick

Doug Gray said:


> High pucker factor


With the speed set well, auto-feed works better for me.  It for sure can go wrong which can be exciting…


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## brino

NC Rick said:


> I did a similar job this week although in aluminum and parting 1/2” long parts from 3” o.d. 3/8 wall. I made a plug for the tail stock as suggested above. Im holding in machined soft jaws by an 1/8” grip on the OD and parting in auto-feed.



Wait, what?
Parting with tail-stock support?!?!
Isn't that the recipe for danger?

Ahhhhh, It must have been a plug that fills the ID from end-to-end and then the parted off rings would simply collect on the plug?

I had a picture in my mind of the "push plate" that @extropic suggested pinching the tool and then throwing everything around.......

-brino


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## NC Rick

brino said:


> Wait, what?
> Parting with tail-stock support?!?!
> Isn't that the recipe for danger?
> 
> Ahhhhh, It must have been a plug that fills the ID from end-to-end and then the parted off rings would simply collect on the plug?
> 
> I had a picture in my mind of the "push plate" that @extropic suggested pinching the tool and then throwing everything around.......
> 
> -brino


Full on danger mode.  I back off the tailstock pressure as the parting blade gets near the ID and stand clear.  Without this goofy stuff i was wasting too much material. Essentially im making a deep groove and letting the parting happen gingerly and while standing back. I have made about 30 of them so far.  The deep Trepanning i tried prior, now that went beyond sketchy, cost me some tooling too…. As i like to say and to quote a friend: “experience, the thing you learn right after you needed it”!


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## Doug Gray

NC Rick said:


> “experience, the thing you learn right after you needed it”!


You don't known what you don't know until you do And there is only one way to find out!


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## Doug Gray

I'm continuing to gnaw. I ringed up a plywood dampener with an aluminum centre drilled plate on the back side. This seemed to help the ringing some. It is a good safety feature in any case. There is not tons of surface on the back end of the jaws. If this were to let go it would not be pretty.
Still searching for that elusive feed and speed to avoid chatter. These inserts part well in small diameters but this six inch is tough. Normal y in small diameters, slightly aggressive, consistent feed works well.  Anyway I got 4 knocked off tonight. I'm hoping the 4 inch are like a holiday after these. Thanks for looking and for the suggestions.


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## SLK001

You might want to use some lubrication for this.  It will definitely help with the chatter.

Do you know what the grooves are for?


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## Doug Gray

In my basement home shop I allways have used very little cutting oil. My wife is tolerant but the smell really bothers her. The grooves are for victaulic clamps.


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## jwmelvin

Soluble oil doesn’t have the smoke/smell problem of cutting oil. While misters seem best, if you don’t have air supply then a little squeeze bottle with a needle tip could be good for parting.


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## SLK001

Doug Gray said:


> The grooves are for victaulic clamps.



What is a "victaulic" clamp?


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## Doug Gray

Victaulic clamps join two sections of pipe. The pipe stubs that I am grooving are welded on to longer sections, often at an angle or onto pumps, hoppers etc.


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## Doug Gray

jwmelvin said:


> Soluble oil doesn’t have the smoke/smell problem of cutting oil. While misters seem best, if you don’t have air supply then a little squeeze bottle with a needle tip could be good for parting.


Do you have any recommendations for a particular none stinky/smokey soluble oil?


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## jwmelvin

Doug Gray said:


> Do you have any recommendations for a particular none stinky/smokey soluble oil?



I’ve only used Kool Mist 77 but I imagine there are quite a few options.


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## John O

Will bacon fat work? the smell is nice.


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## macardoso

brino said:


> Wait, what?
> Parting with tail-stock support?!?!
> Isn't that the recipe for danger?
> 
> Ahhhhh, It must have been a plug that fills the ID from end-to-end and then the parted off rings would simply collect on the plug?
> 
> I had a picture in my mind of the "push plate" that @extropic suggested pinching the tool and then throwing everything around.......
> 
> -brino


Wait... are you not supposed to part with TS support? That is the only way I ever do it. 

Snug up lightly and lock. Once the nub breaks loose the part sort of floats until I move the TS.

Never had an issue and the rigidity boost is very welcome.


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## macardoso

Doug Gray said:


> I'm continuing to gnaw. I ringed up a plywood dampener with an aluminum centre drilled plate on the back side. This seemed to help the ringing some. It is a good safety feature in any case. There is not tons of surface on the back end of the jaws. If this were to let go it would not be pretty.
> Still searching for that elusive feed and speed to avoid chatter. These inserts part well in small diameters but this six inch is tough. Normal y in small diameters, slightly aggressive, consistent feed works well.  Anyway I got 4 knocked off tonight. I'm hoping the 4 inch are like a holiday after these. Thanks for looking and for the suggestions.
> View attachment 365992
> 
> 
> View attachment 365993



A six jaw chuck would definitely be your friend if you continue to do tube work. More points of support with help with chatter. Also smaller width inserts to reduce cutting pressure.


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## macardoso

In my shop - for the same reason as you - I use synthetic water soluble coolant in a squeeze bottle. The same stuff they run in CNC machines as flood coolant. If properly concentrated, it will not rust your machines and typically does not have a noticeable odor. Don't make a 5 gallon bucket though because it can go rancid in large quantities when mixed with oil.

I filled 2 vending machine coke bottles with the concentrate at an internship and it has lasted me probably 8 years. A gallon - the way I use it - would last a lifetime.


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## brino

macardoso said:


> Wait... are you not supposed to part with TS support? That is the only way I ever do it.
> 
> Snug up lightly and lock. Once the nub breaks loose the part sort of floats until I move the TS.
> 
> Never had an issue and the rigidity boost is very welcome.



Interesting!
My only lathe training was in high school metal shop....and I do NOT remember it as a hard rule from there.
It is something I learned not to do many years later on my own metal lathe.
I believe I also saw it posted on this site as a general rule.

Now I will part "almost thru" with the tailstock support, but I either:
i) back it away for the final plunge, or better
ii) take the work to the bandsaw for final cut thru and come back to the lathe for facing.

With tailstock support the parted-off piece cannot just fall safely out of the way.
The parting tool can get pinched in the slot and either or both the tools gets broken or the cut-off get fired out.....
I liken the problem to kick-back on the table saw.

I would love to hear from trained machinists on this one!

-brino


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## macardoso

brino said:


> Interesting!
> My only lathe training was in high school metal shop....and I do NOT remember it as a hard rule from there.
> It is something I learned not to do many years later on my own metal lathe.
> I believe I also saw it posted on this site as a general rule.
> 
> Now I will part "almost thru" with the tailstock support, but I either:
> i) back it away for the final plunge, or better
> ii) take the work to the bandsaw for final cut thru and come back to the lathe for facing.
> 
> With tailstock support the parted-off piece cannot just fall safely out of the way.
> The parting tool can get pinched in the slot and either or both the tools gets broken or the cut-off get fired out.....
> I liken the problem to kick-back on the table saw.
> 
> I would love to hear from trained machinists on this one!
> 
> -brino


Huh, I see the potential issue, but personally I've had good luck with it. Definitely does not mean I am right.

I've found that once the part breaks loose, without any torque to drive it, it just sits there. I just shut the spindle off, and back the tailstock out and bam a clean part. 

I too would love to hear more opinions.


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## extropic

I don't think I would part completely off while using a center or pusher in the tailstock.
I'd part "almost through" and finish by hand. YMMV

In this case, the OP is only grooving, not parting.


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