# Carriage stop project off to a rough start



## Janderso (Jan 27, 2022)

I assumed the ways were 90 degrees??
Anyone know what Colchester chose as the angle?? My swag is 49 or a combined 98 degrees. ??
I think it's closer to 50 degrees.
It looks like Edge products made a standard of 90.
Thanks,
Jeff


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## Timwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

Probably 70°; that's what's on my Clausing anyway.

Hoping to find a 70° endmill one day so it's easier to make things to fit the ways.  Using long narrow endmills and 2 setups is not the most enjoyable/easy thing.


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## WobblyHand (Jan 27, 2022)

Janderso said:


> I assumed the ways were 90 degrees??
> Anyone know what Colchester chose as the angle?? My swag is 49 or a combined 98 degrees. ??
> I think it's closer to 50 degrees.
> It looks like Edge products made a standard of 90.
> ...


Assuming your square is _square_, the combined angle is less than 90, that's because I see daylight under your square.  If the combined angle was greater than 90, your square wouldn't sit nice on top.


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## Janderso (Jan 27, 2022)

I’m no angleologist, but I see 80 or 100.
I cut out a piece of paper using a protractor. From center out I used 50 degrees and it fits perfect.
I never went to school, I was more interested in girls and working.
Explains plenty. Somehow we did alright.


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## vocatexas (Jan 27, 2022)

Your included angle looks to be 80 degrees on the protractor.


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## woodchucker (Jan 27, 2022)

Fix the edge stop.


Yea, I don't know why they would have done that. But I don't see you buying anymore stops... or attachments without checking ahead next time.
It's wierd, but Now that you know.

edit: Or make your own.


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## mikey (Jan 27, 2022)

Janderso said:


> I’m no angleologist, but I see 80 or 100.



I suggest you measure the angle of each side using the flat in the center as a reference.


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## FOMOGO (Jan 27, 2022)

Just use an angle grinder on the ways until it fits correctly.  Mike


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## Alcap (Jan 27, 2022)

What are you going to do ? Send it back , try machine to get the correct angle , maybe make a tapered shim and fasten or ?


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## Janderso (Jan 27, 2022)

mikey said:


> I suggest you measure the angle of each side using the flat in the center as a reference.


I measured this every way from Sunday, I didn’t think of that .
Looks like 50 degrees to me


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## Janderso (Jan 27, 2022)

Timwalker said:


> Probably 70°; that's what's on my Clausing anyway.
> 
> Hoping to find a 70° endmill one day so it's easier to make things to fit the ways.  Using long narrow endmills and 2 setups is not the most enjoyable/easy thing.


Really?


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## Janderso (Jan 27, 2022)

vocatexas said:


> Your included angle looks to be 80 degrees on the protractor.


Or 100


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## jwmelvin (Jan 27, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Or 100



Your protractor divides the 180° total into two parts. You are measuring the acute angle, so we know that it’s 80°.


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## Timwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Really?


For 5900 and 6900 lathes, 100% positive.  Not sure about your particular lathe, made a quick search in the manual for the bigger gearheads, but no mention of the angle they used.  Why not just ask clausing?  They have always been quick and responsive when I have contacted them.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 27, 2022)

Use a universal bevel and transpose it to the Starrett protractor Jeff .


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## Janderso (Jan 27, 2022)

Seems to work out at 50.


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## cathead (Jan 27, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Fix the edge stop.
> 
> 
> Yea, I don't know why they would have done that. But I don't see you buying anymore stops... or attachments without checking ahead next time.
> ...


My experience with making my own carriage stop was that the clamping mechanism has to be STOUT enough to hold the
stop in place when the carriage bumps up against it.  I don't use it much for that reason.  If I build another it
will have TWO large clamps to hold it in place.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 27, 2022)

I may have an indicator holding carriage stop for a Clausing laying around Jeff . I went with a micrometer stop and added a trav-a-dial on the carriage . I'm finding all kinds of older stuff these days . Putting some of it on the bay if it's useable .


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## mikey (Jan 27, 2022)

Janderso said:


> I measured this every way from Sunday, I didn’t think of that .
> Looks like 50 degrees to me


Yup, looks like 50 deg to me, too. Since this is how you have to cut it, best to measure it using the flat as your reference.


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## Janderso (Jan 27, 2022)

mikey said:


> Yup, looks like 50 deg to me, too. Since this is how you have to cut it, best to measure it using the flat as your reference.


mikey,
You have helped me so many times.
I sure appreciate your advice!


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## mikey (Jan 27, 2022)

Glad it worked out, Jeff.


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## Janderso (Jan 28, 2022)

cathead said:


> If I build another it
> will have TWO large clamps to hold it in place.


Good advice. This is a stout part and thinking about the clamping system, I'll make it as robust as I can


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## mikey (Jan 28, 2022)

You will find that the accuracy of the angles of your stop are critical to its function as a stop. The more accurate they are, the better the surface contact will be between the stop and the geometry of the way. The better the surface contact, the less clamping force needed to lock it down. The plate used underneath to lock the stop to the way should be milled flat and the ledge that spaces it apart from the body of the stop should be high enough to deal with any bow in the plate when the locking bolt is tightened. If you get all of this right, a single bolt is enough to lock any carriage stop ... but two is better.


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## rwm (Jan 28, 2022)

I was surprised at how much clamping force was required to actually stop the carriage.


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## Winegrower (Jan 28, 2022)

I hope nobody is trying to use these clamps to stop a carriage under power feed?  

The Takisawa has a nice feature where you can set up a trip point and stop the power feed...then move the carriage by hand a tenth of inch or so to contact the stop point.   I made a similar stop for the cross slide that's very helpful while threading.


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## Dabbler (Jan 28, 2022)

A good friend of mine rebuilt a Colchester lathe made in England, and it was exactly 50 degrees (per side)  It makes it very hard to make parts that fit the veeway, as an end mill makes a 45 degree angle on each side.


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## Janderso (Jan 28, 2022)

mikey said:


> You will find that the accuracy of the angles of your stop are critical to its function as a stop. The more accurate they are, the better the surface contact will be between the stop and the geometry of the way. The better the surface contact, the less clamping force needed to lock it down. The plate used underneath to lock the stop to the way should be milled flat and the ledge that spaces it apart from the body of the stop should be high enough to deal with any bow in the plate when the locking bolt is tightened. If you get all of this right, a single bolt is enough to lock any carriage stop ... but two is better.


I’ll be making the bottom plate soon.
I have some ideas on how to get a solid fit.
I used my new kiln today to heat treat this A2 part. I was able to maintain a good soak at 1,700 degrees for over an hour, then I put it on a brick in the shade outside with a temperature in the mid 50’s. A file just skated off.
Then I spent some time with the Brown and Sharpe Micromaster 
This piece is done.


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## rwm (Jan 29, 2022)

That looks great! I am wondering why you hardened it? Won't it be prone to fracture and also possibly mark up the lathe ways?


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## Dabbler (Jan 29, 2022)

@rwm if it is 4140, it will significantly strengthen by hardening, leading to less chance of a problem.  Hard metal will accept swarf less readily and so will be less prone to scoring the ways.


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## akjeff (Jan 29, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> I hope nobody is trying to use these clamps to stop a carriage under power feed?
> 
> The Takisawa has a nice feature where you can set up a trip point and stop the power feed...then move the carriage by hand a tenth of inch or so to contact the stop point.   I made a similar stop for the cross slide that's very helpful while threading.


Depends on the lathe. My Summit has an adjustable clutch type kick out on the carriage, and when its hits the desired resistance( like hitting the carriage stop ) it disengages the power feed. Doesn't work with the half nut engaged, of course, but works for the power feed.


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## Winegrower (Jan 29, 2022)

The Takisawa has a adjustable feed clutch, as did my Logan.   If I had it set to what felt like a tolerable impact against a stop, a heavy cut could stall out the feed.   When adjusted up for the cut issue, it just seemed too careless to let brute force overpower the clutch.   

Is it normal practice to use a stop against power feed?   I have not seen this indicated in a manual as an operating tip.


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## Janderso (Jan 29, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @rwm if it is 4140, it will significantly strengthen by hardening, leading to less chance of a problem.  Hard metal will accept swarf less readily and so will be less prone to scoring the ways.


Thank you dabler, I was questioning if hardening the part was a bad idea?
I wanted to use my new kiln. This seemed like a good place to check it out


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## Janderso (Jan 29, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> The Takisawa has a adjustable feed clutch, as did my Logan.   If I had it set to what felt like a tolerable impact against a stop, a heavy cut could stall out the feed.   When adjusted up for the cut issue, it just seemed too careless to let brute force overpower the clutch.
> 
> Is it normal practice to use a stop against power feed?   I have not seen this indicated in a manual as an operating tip.


I have only used my saddle clutch once. I was threading and did not have an undercut, when I pulled back on the half nut lever it was stuck!!
The clutch kicked in and it went into neutral so I know it works. (The tool hit the shoulder and stopped)
I had to wash my pants, should have wore my brown pants . I didn't say that out loud did I?


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## Dabbler (Jan 29, 2022)

When done, you will have to pay atention to surface finishing afterwards.


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## Janderso (Jan 29, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> Is it normal practice to use a stop against power feed? I have not seen this indicated in a manual as an operating tip.


I have seen this done many times watching Youtube tutorials. Lathes that are equipped with this feature easily kick out feeds when needed. IMHO


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## Janderso (Jan 29, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> When done, you will have to pay atention to surface finishing afterwards.


Please explain why


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## Dabbler (Jan 29, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Please explain why


The contact pieces at least have to be ground, stoned or sanded smooth.  The scale from heat treat on a microscopic level is very sharp and very, very hard.  Even moving it one the veeway will begin to induce scratches.

it is no big deal to stone it, or use a belt sander to take the scale off.  It is hard enough to break downthe edge of your files if you file it, and filing HT scale can quickly dull a file if done often.

You can leave the bottom clamp 'in the rough'  -- that surface is only used for clamping and the bottom guide for the carriage, so scratches and wear doesn't matter much.


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## Janderso (Jan 29, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> The contact pieces at least have to be ground, stoned or sanded smooth.  The scale from heat treat on a microscopic level is very sharp and very, very hard.  Even moving it one the veeway will begin to induce scratches.
> 
> it is no big deal to stone it, or use a belt sander to take the scale off.  It is hard enough to break downthe edge of your files if you file it, and filing HT scale can quickly dull a file if done often.
> 
> You can leave the bottom clamp 'in the rough'  -- that surface is only used for clamping and the bottom guide for the carriage, so scratches and wear doesn't matter much.


OK, I'll run them through the surface grinder using a CBN wheel. Smooth as glass.
Thank you


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## akjeff (Jan 29, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> The Takisawa has a adjustable feed clutch, as did my Logan.   If I had it set to what felt like a tolerable impact against a stop, a heavy cut could stall out the feed.   When adjusted up for the cut issue, it just seemed too careless to let brute force overpower the clutch.
> 
> Is it normal practice to use a stop against power feed?   I have not seen this indicated in a manual as an operating tip.


I don't generally use it as a normal practice, but it does work. I'm still a chicken and stop the power feed just short, and bump it against the stop by hand. Maybe I'll get more comfortable with it some day. I've seen some More-Seiki( I believe ) that have adjustable bumpers that trip a lever, rather than a clutch type. A better mousetrap IMO, as it wouldn't matter how heavy or light a cut you were making, since there's no clutch variable.


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## Janderso (Jan 29, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> The contact pieces at least have to be ground, stoned or sanded smooth.  The scale from heat treat on a microscopic level is very sharp and very, very hard.  Even moving it one the veeway will begin to induce scratches.
> 
> it is no big deal to stone it, or use a belt sander to take the scale off.  It is hard enough to break downthe edge of your files if you file it, and filing HT scale can quickly dull a file if done often.
> 
> You can leave the bottom clamp 'in the rough'  -- that surface is only used for clamping and the bottom guide for the carriage, so scratches and wear doesn't matter much.


I wasn’t able to reach the critical areas due to the acute angles.
I was able to clean up the scale with my scotchbrite wheel.
Boy is this stuff hard!


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## Winegrower (Jan 29, 2022)

akjeff said:


> I've seen some More-Seiki( I believe ) that have adjustable bumpers that trip a lever, rather than a clutch type. A better mousetrap IMO,


That’s what the Takisawa has.   It’s very well implemented.   Too bad it doesn’t work for threading, though.


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## akjeff (Jan 30, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> That’s what the Takisawa has.   It’s very well implemented.   Too bad it doesn’t work for threading, though.


Indeed.


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## Janderso (Feb 1, 2022)

It came out good.
 The clamp has a thicker register at the bed. It locks up very tight.Now I need a bump stop on the apron.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 1, 2022)

That looks great Jeff!


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## Winegrower (Feb 1, 2022)

A rough start, but a smooth finish.


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## rwm (Feb 1, 2022)

Wow that came out good!


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