# TIG is Hard



## Janderso (Jul 18, 2021)

I've found I really need magnified vision to even attempt to get a reasonable result.
I bought the inserts at the welding shop. They help but I think I need more magnification.
I don't practice enough!
This is 18 gauge steel sheet. I finally have a respectable bead this morning after making a mess of things.
The other thing that's frustrating, I get shocked-buzzed when I touch the table with my arm. I put this pad down to help with that. 
TIG is just so finicky, everything has to be just so. I have to be right in there to see and manipulate the tungsten so I don't dip. So far, only one dip today!!
Just killing time in the shop.


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## Aukai (Jul 18, 2021)

Your doing better than me. If you have exposed skin, your not getting "sun burn"? I use a leather welding jacket, so I guess I have insulation to the table. I'm still practicing at being bad


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## markba633csi (Jul 18, 2021)

Thin gauge is hard to do Jeff, no matter what process.  Maybe work on some thicker stuff some more
-Mark


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## MrCrankyface (Jul 18, 2021)

Looks like you're off to a really good start! Watch tons of youtube videos to get ideas of what to think of and most importantly, spend a lot of time actually welding!
TIG is just one of those things where you really need the seat time to start getting good at it.
I also find that it's extra important to have really bright lights so you can see better what you're doing.


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## benmychree (Jul 18, 2021)

I used to do a lot of TIG on stainless 303 and 304 mostly 16 gage pipe but also heavier parts, most of what I did was using a welding positioner with a device to steady my hand and always using a foot pedal to fine tune the heat.  You don't say what gloves you use, you should be using thin "TIG" gloves for fine feeling and control of the torch.


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## rabler (Jul 18, 2021)

I have to agree, thin stuff is difficult as it doesn't give you a lot of time to form a puddle before it just melts away.  I originally learned to weld with OA, I have to resist the urge to pull the torch back a bit.

I've never had trouble with getting shocked. I ground clamp to my table all the time. What are you touching that is at the electrode potential?


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## Janderso (Jul 18, 2021)

MrCrankyface said:


> important to have really bright lights


I think you are on to something.


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## Janderso (Jul 18, 2021)

benmychree said:


> you should be using thin "TIG" gloves


That's what I'm using John.
 I'm also wearing the welding sleeves to avoid getting sun burned.
I haven't tried stainless yet. I have quite a bit of stainless sheet scrap I can learn on.
I'm using 100% argon. OK for stainless?
Maybe I'll try out the 1/8" welding cards I bought for practice. This thin stuff is a royal PITA


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## Janderso (Jul 18, 2021)

rabler said:


> What are you touching that is at the electrode potential?


The table is grounded, if I touch my skin to the table when I hit the pedal, I get zapped.


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## markba633csi (Jul 18, 2021)

Seems like the table isn't grounded well enough maybe


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 18, 2021)

I was introduced to TIG, hardfacing with Stellite, took me about 10 mintues to get onto it, only problem I had, my "teacher' was left handed, started me out that way.... I used to get pretty good sunburn triangles where my shirt was open below the mask.


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## Ulma Doctor (Jul 18, 2021)

Jeff may have low resistance through his body.
I wouldn’t recommend exposed skin when welding , the ultraviolet light is bad for most living things. Also possibility for electrocution is real.
When i was an iron worker , my roommate had to weld in the laying down position , between 2 pieces of building iron apparently after sweating and welding in one spot for an hour or so, he suffered low voltage electrocution. It did some nerve damage as he was not able to feel he was being electrocuted other than slight tingling in his knees

1/8” thick materials are good practice fodder

you may wish to wait until you get a few moons under your belt before welding stainless, especially thin gauge stuff.
Since stainless doesn’t transfer heat very well , the material often distorts and can be challenging for the novice. Thicker material will alleviate some of the tendency to warp in the weld zone.
Extra tacks and short welds in the weld path help in keeping warpage to a minimum

Pulse tig is the greatest thing since sliced bread


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## talvare (Jul 18, 2021)

Jeff,
I have the same issues with vision. I bought some 4X reading glasses that I use under my hood and they help a lot. The biggest problem is that I just don't do it often enough to maintain my skills. A few decades ago I was a pretty good welder, but there weren't many days that I didn't have to weld, so my skills stayed well honed. Plus, I wasn't an old man !

Ted


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## benmychree (Jul 18, 2021)

Janderso said:


> That's what I'm using John.
> I'm also wearing the welding sleeves to avoid getting sun burned.
> I haven't tried stainless yet. I have quite a bit of stainless sheet scrap I can learn on.
> I'm using 100% argon. OK for stainless?
> Maybe I'll try out the 1/8" welding cards I bought for practice. This thin stuff is a royal PITA


Yes, I opened the picture and see the gloves, and also yes, 100% argon for stainless.  Stainless is easy to weld, but gets oxidation on the back side if not purged with argon or other means/ substance to keep air away.


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## pontiac428 (Jul 18, 2021)

Jeff, try that weld with the 18 ga. material again, only this time without using any filler metal.  Just focus on heat control and steady motion, and the result should be a neat, strong fusion weld.  Whenever tipping two thinner pieces together at an angle like that, even at 90 degrees, simple fusion is the way to go.  Just don't overheat your starting corner, or you'll lose your base metal.


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## rabler (Jul 18, 2021)

Ulma Doctor said:


> Jeff may have low resistance through his body.


That implies he is completing a circuit from one voltage potential to another, with the ground (table) being one of them.  What is the other?  The torch handle should be insulated.  

I would guess your roomate was stick welding. Stingers are certainly easier to contact rod potential.


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## rabler (Jul 18, 2021)

My point is you may want to investigate what is the other contact point.  HF start does pose a higher risk of shock and can occur just on radiated energy , but if shocks are occurring outside of that I’d investigate.  If nothing else it may reveal a grounding issue which could also complicate welding


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## Liljoebrshooter (Jul 18, 2021)

I TIG  stainless everyday at work.   It takes some practice and it will click.  Seeing the puddle is what most people struggle with,  me included.  I  have my welder at 125 amps so its pretty easy to see that.  Turn it down to 40a or so and it gets tougher to see. 
Joe


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## Weldingrod1 (Jul 18, 2021)

First, make sure you are on high frequency start ONLY. Not continous.
You will always have this issue with TIG. The best you can do is.control it... You can help it with a well insulated torch, and maybe a sleeve on the leads. 
Also, if you have the option, turn down the HF. On older machines there's an adjustment available.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Weldingrod1 (Jul 18, 2021)

Oh, yeah, on thin stuff, look up the right Tungsten size and amp range! It makes a HUGE difference to get the electrode right. For really thin stuff you may want DC reverse. This puts 70% of the heat in the electrode. Go up an electrode size if you do this.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## westerner (Jul 18, 2021)

In my limited experience welding TIG as part of my job, one thing I finally recognized that took too long TO recognize-

When you drop a bit of rod into the puddle, the dang puddle grows, generally VERTICALLY. Cramps my style, generally....


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## Janderso (Jul 18, 2021)

pontiac428 said:


> Jeff, try that weld with the 18 ga. material again, only this time without using any filler metal.  Just focus on heat control and steady motion, and the result should be a neat, strong fusion weld.  Whenever tipping two thinner pieces together at an angle like that, even at 90 degrees, simple fusion is the way to go.  Just don't overheat your starting corner, or you'll lose your base metal.


Pontiac,
It’s interesting, that fusion method is much easier than using the stop, fill, proceed method.


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## Janderso (Jul 18, 2021)

Weldingrod1 said:


> First, make sure you are on high frequency start ONLY. Not continous.
> You will always have this issue with TIG. The best you can do is.control it... You can help it with a well insulated torch, and maybe a sleeve on the leads.
> Also, if you have the option, turn down the HF. On older machines there's an adjustment available.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I have a Miller 220 AC/DC, Tig, stick, MiG, ac for aluminum etc.
It’s a good machine to just dial in and forget it. Sometimes I adjust the feed or amps.


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## General Zod (Jul 19, 2021)

westerner said:


> In my limited experience welding TIG as part of my job, one thing I finally recognized that took too long TO recognize-
> 
> When you drop a bit of rod into the puddle, the dang puddle grows, generally VERTICALLY. Cramps my style, generally....



That is because you're not supposed to drop droplets of rod into the puddle;  by the time the ball falls off the rod, it has grown to way too large of a size.  With TIG, the rod size should generally be no larger than about ½ the diameter of the molten weld pool.  By having a rod much smaller (in diameter) than the weld pool, allows one to carefully gauge the amount of filler metal introduced so that it does not grow unnecessarily large.  The tip of the rod needs to be introduced to the leading edge and letting the molten pool wick only what it is given by the operator.  One can obtain very shallow bead height, while still obtaining proper convex reinforcement and penetration if the correct amperage and overall technique is used.


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## C-Bag (Jul 19, 2021)

All good stuff.

The guy who taught me to rebuild VW’s worked in Africa as a machinist on wildcat oil rigs. They had to recruit help from the natives and his test for welder was he’d get a piece of paper and a pencil and draw a nice long  back forth bead pattern. Then ask the person to copy it. The guys who could draw and could do a nice controlled pattern he could train to weld. I found it was good practice when I was just doodling. He didn’t tell me where he got that but it works for me.


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## erikmannie (Jul 19, 2021)

A corner joint on 18 gauge was a challenging way to start!

I started with stringer beads on 3/16” plate, and then butt joints on like .090”. I worked exclusively with mild steel for a long time before moving on to other materials.

Try obtaining a large quantity of .063”-.090” mild steel coupons, and then work on butt, lap, Tee, edge & fillet joints. I find corner joints to be the most difficult.

I would have expected you to dip the tungsten a lot more frequently; I know I do! I would rather have a tight arc, dip my tungsten a lot & then have to decontaminate & resharpen my tungsten rather than risk too long of an arc.

I weld with 2.5-3X cheaters, and sometimes I use 5X eyeglasses (in a different hood that has no cheater).

Wearing headphones & listening to music with a beat helps SO much with TIG. Ted Nugent Double Live Gonzo is a favorite for this.


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## AGCB97 (Jul 19, 2021)

A few things that I have found.
*NUMBER 1* Being able to see the puddle and where you're going well. A good helmet is the best investment in welding well. When you use low amp settings as on thin metal, there's not as much light generated by the arc. You have to be able to lighten the shade of the helmet lens to make up for it. Experiment with reading glasses without the helmet to get the best diopter for the distance your eyes are normally from the work. Right and left eyes may not be the same. I use a reading glass with one of the lenses popped out as I only need closeup help on one eye. Keep all the lenses clean. A clear Pyrex cup helps to light up the puddle surrounding area.

As for skin protection: who wants to put on a leather jacket when the ambient temperature is above 80 degrees? Unless your weld overhead or there is danger of sparks FALLING on you, fabric welders sleeves with elastic top and bottom allow you to weld in comfortable clothing while protecting your skin from arc burn. These apply to TIG and MIG welding NOT stick or gas welding.

Practice, Practice, Practice, and have fun!

Aaron


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## Janderso (Jul 19, 2021)

All good stuff.
I think I’ll leave my table set up and dedicate some time each day to practice 
This welding process is so much harder than MiG welding But so much more versatile.


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## C-Bag (Jul 19, 2021)

My main means of welding was OA as every shop I worked in had a rig. Along with a buzz box. I’d never used a MIG until the 90’s because nobody had one. Then I spent years of doing one fab job after another with that old Miller then a Lincoln 175. They were no brainers. One day they needed somebody to TIG weld and my time as a OA worked good even though I had no idea what I was doing technically. As guy who was a real TIG welder came over and trouble shot for me and gave me some tips. Mostly I suffered from not being able to see because I’d not yet went to reader glasses and I had a cheap helmet. There are several guys on YT who say not to start out on MIG. Dunno why. Welding is welding…..


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## General Zod (Jul 19, 2021)

C-Bag said:


> There are several guys on YT who say not to start out on MIG. Dunno why. Welding is welding…..


MIG is tricky because IMO, it all has to do with the electrode holder & the electrode (there are of course other factors).  If you think about it like this, MIG is quite unique compared to TIG or SMAW:   in TIG/SMAW (which are considered 'constant current') if you move the electrode away/to the joint, aka: changing the arc length (without doing anything else), you can clearly see the difference in the change of the arc; IE: with SMAW you can usually see the metal deposition go to crap if you increase the arc length way too much (unless you're using 6013s, then you can't see hardly anything because of the slag  )

With MIG or any wire-feed process, because the electrode (the wire) is feeding out of the electrode holder at a high and usually constant rate, the situation is much different IMO.  If you increase the stick-out (contact tip-to-work distance) even just a little bit, the wire is still being fed at the same exact rate, so the metal deposition is still happening in a fairly uniform fashion and you can still see a molten pool, but the added CTWD causes a resistive heating effect whereby there is more voltage drop in the wire than there should be.  The voltage drop in the wire needs to be kept at the appropriate level, so that the arc intensity and amperage at the weld pool is not decreased.  It's not like TIG/SMAW whereby those are CC processes, and if you increase the distance from the electrode to the weld pool, the machine typically increases the voltage and you can see the arc flare out.   MIG/MAG are 'constant voltage', so the typical scenario for a beginner using MIG/MAG is holding too long of a stickout and not having a clue that this is affecting the voltage _and _amperage output because the resulting weld bead can still look fairly uniform, yet is way too cold; it was hot enough to melt the wire feeding out of the gun, but typically not hot enough to melt the base metal and create a proper fusion between the parts intended to be welded. 

So I agree with those YT guys IF the person that is starting to weld doesn't have that knowledge I specified above, or is not being guided by someone who knows what happens when you do things wrong.   That's just my take on it of course.


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## Al 1 (Jul 20, 2021)

Janderso said:


> The table is grounded, if I touch my skin to the table when I hit the pedal, I get zapped.


ground your part as close as possible to weld


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## G-ManBart (Jul 20, 2021)

Janderso said:


> All good stuff.
> I think I’ll leave my table set up and dedicate some time each day to practice
> This welding process is so much harder than MiG welding But so much more versatile.



One thing I haven't noticed anybody mention is filler diameter.  When you're welding thicker material it doesn't matter too much, but on thinner stock it helps to have smaller filler.  Autogenous welds (no filler) have their place, but can wind up with cracking in some cases.  Find some 1/16" filler and maybe even grab some .045"...it comes in handy at times.

The other thing I didn't see mentioned in regards to light is keeping it from coming in the top of your shield.  If you wind up with an overhead light glaring through the top of the shield you''ll struggle to see what you're doing.  In some cases it's bad enough people will put a rag or shop towel over the opening to stop the backlighting....makes a big difference.

I'm not a pro, but everybody likes pics!  This was my first attempt at 16ga stainless with .030" filler.  A buddy came over to borrow one of my TIG welders (his was broken) and he was working on a project with these materials so I grabbed some of the scraps and gave it a try.  It was easy because I was able to watch him for half an hour before I gave it a shot.  This would be almost impossible with thicker filler.


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## keeena (Jul 22, 2021)

About 15-ish years ago I took a beginner course which involved gas and stick only. I haven't touched welding since until I buying a TIG machine 2 months ago. TIG on steel was reasonably quick pick up even after all that time. So I'd recommend an continuing ed night course if you can find one. Learning the fundamentals with gas will set a solid foundation. 

Definitely use 1/8" thru 3/16" thick steel coupons for starters. Flat beads before trying inside/outside joints. Clean everything meticulously: sand to bare metal & wipe down with acetone.

As others mentioned: you shouldn't get shocked. It means that your body is completing a circuit between your torch and the table...that really shouldn't happen unless you're holding the electrode.  I think someone mentioned the insulation/handle on the torch may be suspect. I'd pop the handle off and look around. I'm also wondering if there could be an issue internally with the machine that could cause the same problem. There's smarter folks here who would know.

Getting your body in a comfortable position is also really important. Setup an arm rest / reference surface to glide your hand on. Do a dry run to make sure you can move through the weld bead range without getting your body position out of whack. At first I found that I was using a death-grip on the torch. Relax! Also take up excess slack (weight) of the line with a hanger and ensure the line between the hanger and the torch won't be snagging anything mid-weld.

Some of the best YouTube University advice I came across is to avoid over-thinking the hardware. 3/32 electrode (2% lanthanated), 1/16 or 3/32 filler, #5/6 (AL) or #7/8 (steel) cup. Don't try jumping to fancy gas lenses, obsess about grind angles, other electrode flavors, etc... I'd even stay away from AL for a bit. While these items can definitely help fine-tune things or deal with trickier joints, you'll get yourself wrapped around the axle if you over-think it as a beginner.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 22, 2021)

keeena said:


> Some of the best YouTube University advice I came across is to avoid over-thinking the hardware. 3/32 electrode (2% lanthanated), 1/16 or 3/32 filler, #5/6 (AL) or #7/8 (steel) cup. *Don't try jumping to fancy gas lenses*, obsess about grind angles, other electrode flavors, etc...



Not to argue, but gas lenses make it easier on a beginner....they're shorter so easier to see around, and you can run your stickout a lot more so it's very easy to see the tip of the tungsten.  I don't see them as fancy at all...just slightly different and easier to use for anything but tight corners.  They certainly aren't expensive at this point so there isn't much downside.


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## General Zod (Jul 22, 2021)

keeena said:


> As others mentioned: you shouldn't get shocked. It means that your body is completing a circuit between your torch and the table...that really shouldn't happen unless you're holding the electrode.



But it _does _happen, and definitely not holding the electrode.  So then what gives?   It's because the circuit being completed and shocking you is not between the torch and the table.  It's between the _table_ and the _work clamp._  If you're bare skin, or especially worse if your sleeves have moisture due to sweat, both make contact with the table, a tiny portion of the voltage/current at the puddle, works its way through you on it's way to the work clamp.  There is a tiny potential difference between those two points.  Notice I said tiny. I'm not saying tons of amps are coursing through your body, otherwise you'd be a vegetable. But it's definitely there, I have felt it. Without holding the actual electrode.


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## General Zod (Jul 22, 2021)

G-ManBart said:


> Not to argue, but gas lenses make it easier on a beginner....they're shorter so easier to see around, and you can run your stickout a lot more so it's very easy to see the tip of the tungsten.  I don't see them as fancy at all...just slightly different and easier to use for anything but tight corners.  They certainly aren't expensive at this point so there isn't much downside.


Exactly.  Now a days, it's like telling someone to learn to drive on a car without power-steering since it's not absolutely needed, just learn how to drive straight forward and worry about turning later.   Learning is much easier with power-steering (gas lens set-up's).

Also, avoid cheap gas lens collet bodies from EBay/Amazon at ALL Costs.   CK or TecTorch or Furick set-up's.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 23, 2021)

General Zod said:


> Also, avoid cheap gas lens collet bodies from EBay/Amazon at ALL Costs.   CK or TecTorch or Furick set-up's.


You can actually get CK and Furick on both eBay and Amazon now...have to pay attention to the details, but they're definitely available.  I don't recall seeing TecTorch, but I haven't really looked.  Some of the bigger suppliers have moved to both platforms in the past year or so it seems.


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## General Zod (Jul 23, 2021)

Technically yes, but I mean the no-name cheapie's that sell for very "attractive" pricing.  I'm not saying they will all be junk either, but it sure does suck when someone is barely embarking on that steep learning curve with a faulty part that they might have a difficult time diagnosing weld issues.


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## keeena (Jul 23, 2021)

G-ManBart said:


> Not to argue, but gas lenses make it easier on a beginner....they're shorter so easier to see around, and you can run your stickout a lot more so it's very easy to see the tip of the tungsten.  I don't see them as fancy at all...just slightly different and easier to use for anything but tight corners.  They certainly aren't expensive at this point so there isn't much downside.


That's not arguing   And its a very valid point. I agree that they are useful, I just feel its an extra layer of complication for first-timers. For learning the basics: its not going to make the difference between being able to weld or not. Once you start to get the fundamentals like electrode gap, feed, reading puddle: then start to add other variables as you fine-tune skills and tackle trickier projects where those products shine.

In the OP's original comment about eyesight: something like pyrex cups might be a good suggestion.


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## koenbro (Jul 23, 2021)

I am often surprised by advice that beginners shouldn’t use has lenses, etc. I am a new amateur started out in 2018 with a CK torch and gas lens. Great way to start. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## DavidR8 (Jul 23, 2021)

I added an LED headlamp to the chin of my helmet and it made a world of difference in seeing the puddle. I also have 2x magnifiers in my helmet and they help to a degree but I prefer using a pair of 2x readers.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 26, 2021)

keeena said:


> That's not arguing   And its a very valid point. I agree that they are useful, I just feel its an extra layer of complication for first-timers. For learning the basics: its not going to make the difference between being able to weld or not. Once you start to get the fundamentals like electrode gap, feed, reading puddle: then start to add other variables as you fine-tune skills and tackle trickier projects where those products shine.
> 
> In the OP's original comment about eyesight: something like pyrex cups might be a good suggestion.



I guess I never thought of it as adding an extra layer of complication. You still have to put a diffuser/lens and cup on the torch either way so it's just slightly different shapes. The ability to run more stickout is where I think it makes things a lot easier for the newbie. I bought gas lenses immediately and didn't even try standard diffusers and cups for quite some time...seemed to be simple enough for me and I'm not the smartest guy around  

I find the Pyrex cups do help a lot with being able to see the puddle even when I'm not trying to look through them.  They seem to act like a mirror and reflect right back on the puddle so I find it easier to see the puddle, arc, etc....just better all around.  They're definitely more expensive, more fragile and can't take as much heat, so I only use them for certain projects, but they really are a handy option to have.  That reminds me...I dropped and cracked my #5 pyrex cup....really like that on thinner aluminum.


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## keeena (Jul 26, 2021)

Yeah, maybe my advice was to the folks who (like me) overthink things.  It can get a little overwhelming once you start looking at gas lenses, stubby setups, cups, different electrode types and sizes, advanced settings, etc... And then you buy all the fancy bits and realize half the stuff is the wrong size...I've never done that before.   That's all I was getting at. You can throw 3/32 thoriated and a normal #7 or 8 cup (for steel) and be running.  Have I beat a dead horse yet?


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## Weldingrod1 (Jul 26, 2021)

+1 on Aluminum is harder than carbon steel and stainlesss!

MIG is crazy easy to start, but you really need someone to coach you on distance. Plus, the flux core units are sooooo slooooow. I've taught maybe 10 people MIG and about 250 people stick and OA. The OA skills transfer to TIG very well. Stick, there's some crossover. MIG, not much at all.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Avmech (Jul 31, 2021)

Fully agree with Weldingrod. In a former life I taught welding to Airframe and Powerplant (aircraft mechanics) students, mainly OA and TIG (Both steel and aluminum).  Angles are a little different, but the 2 handed motions are very similar


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