# New shop! (was: Multiple buildings, ...)



## rabler (Mar 2, 2021)

If there is one universal truth it is that tools expand to fill all available shop space.   I know the kinetic theory of gases says the same thing, but seriously, we always need more shop space, right?

5 years ago my wife and I started the process of moving from Georgia to Indiana as our retirement home.   We'd built several large barns and hay sheds in Georgia, but never had a real workshop. Given that we had horses, we had to build a couple of horse barns and a lot of fencing as the first priority. Initially we had intended to build a new house on property we'd bought in Indiana, but circumstances got a little crazy and we ended up buying a small prefab house on a lot adjoining our property.   That prefab and lot came with a nice 30x32 garage.  Ironically one of the reasons we got that house and lot was that we legally had a right of way through the lot, and the 30x32 garage was actually built blocking the right of way.

Anyway, the 30x32 garage only had a 8' ceiling, and a garage door with about 6'8" clearance.  Not enough to get our bigger pickup into it.  I decided that garage was going to be converted to a top-notch workshop.  It originally was stud walls, open and vented attic.  We  wired it up with quad outlets on 2 20A circuits every 10', and dual 20A circuits about every 15', plus dedicated circuits for a dust collector, compressor, and window unit.  Another circuit for the indoor and outdoor lights.  A 30A circuit and a 50A circuit with outlets on three walls for welders.  Drywall on the walls and ceiling, all insulated.  It turned into quite a nice workshop.  I'd call it a mancave but my wife works out there too.  I've done hobby woodworking and welding for many decades, she likes to refinish old furniture.  We put in a gas line, gas heater, buried an internet line and dropped a satellite TV connection in.  Put in more than 20 of the 4' LED light strips.  Its a nice place to work.



Of course we wanted a place to keep the yard tools, mower, and other "stuff".  Stuff included storage for wood and metal stock.  And those don't need a heated/cooled area.  So we built another building behind our workshop.



That has been completely enclose except for hanging a garage door at this point.  It's a 16x20 area with 10' ceiling, plus a 12x20 extension with a sloped roof.  I did put a dehumidifer in the 12x20 area to keep the metal stock from rusting. We call it our storage shed.

You can see from the picture my wife has been helpful and engaged in all of this.  Lucky me   We did all of the work on the workshop and the storage shed ourselves, except for hiring out a concrete crew to pour the slab under the storage shed.

It may not be obvious from the picture, but the storage shed is stepped between the larger room and the side extension, due to the slope we're on.  Our entire lot around the house runs on a nice hill up from the road.  Makes a scenic yard, and we have a crest in our back yard that is a high spot for quite a ways in all directions.  We plan to build a nice little gazebo up there some day.  Already trenched a water line and a power line up there, about 400'.  Water pressure is not impressive by the time you get up there, but it is enough to keep the roses and decorative trees we planted happy.

Our horse barns are about a 1/4 mile from the house, different corner of the property.  We needed some hay storage space, plus room for tractor implements and other misc things to keep out of the rain.  I also wanted a garage that I could work on the vehicles/tractors.  So we paid an Amish crew to build a structure:



This thing has a open sided 32x40 area divided into 4 bays on the left, and a 32 x 24 enclosed area on the right.  12' ceilings.  Gravel under the open sided area and 6" slab under the enclosed area.  Sectioned off 8' x 24'  of the enclosed area and built a little kitchenette and bathroom.  We did the plumbing wiring and framing of the kitchenette ourselves.  I'm sure it sounds luxurious but having a toilet, fridge and microwave are pretty critical when we spend at least 3-4 hours a day over there in all weather.  Kitchenette includes a mini-split HVAC.  We prefer to walk the 1/4 mile, good exercise.


We had saved quite a bit of money to build a house when we sold our Georgia residence, and the prefab+lot didn't use that up, but building the new "garage" with kitchenette and septic tank over at the barns pretty much used up the last of the leftover house savings.

I'm currently storing the big Monarch and the K&T vertical in this building.  I've built a rotary phase converter and for now it is installed over there.  But this is a ****ty arrangement, in that I really need that space for working on vehicles, and now my workshop is split between two buildings.  As you can guess that one tool I need is always in the other shop.  Running back and forth for a calipers is not a long term solution.  Of course I can buy another set of calipers, but I'm already running out of space.  More tools is NOT the solution to a lack of space 

My first thought was to add on to the 30x32 workshop.  But the lot/house/workshop layout would limit that to about a 20x30 addition.  I'd also like to go to a 12' ceiling and possibly even a 1 ton bridge crane in the machining part of the shop.

So right now I'm leaning toward a 40x60 pole barn with 12' ceilings fairly close to the house.  I really don't like the idea of splitting the workshop between a new space and the existing workspace because of the problems with the calipers.  The sensible approach is probably to keep the woodworking stuff in the current space, and put the metal working machinery in the new space.  My wife is excited about the idea of a new space as long as we can include a woodburning stove to sit around the fire.  Obviously this is therefore a mandatory requirement  

Does anyone have experience/thoughts/comments on shop space split across multiple buildings?  How do you handle it?  (I know, first world problems.  But dammit, I'm going to have fun!)


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## rabler (Mar 2, 2021)

Also, one of my issues with building a new shop near the existing house/workshop/storage shed is the ground slope.  I'm going to have to do quite a bit of grading and fill work.  Soil here is clay, so compacting it is challenging, and may end up with lots of crusher run for fill.  Unfortunately the best location for a shop is slightly downhill of the current septic tank, so plumbing is out of the question.  Fortunately closest neighbors are quite distant and there are plenty of trees.


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## rabler (Mar 3, 2021)

Staked out the building site.  Looks like it is going to be 4' lower on the low corner than the high corner.  I'm thinking I'll excavate about 18" and grade ditches around the top side with french drains buried in geotextile wrapped gravel.  That'll mean about 100 tons of crusher run to fill the low side.  In this area that'll probably run me about $2500 in crusher run for the fill, another $500 for fine gravel for the drains.  I have a small excavator which I can use to get rough-level, and then I'll use the 6' wide rotor tiller and loader bucket on the tractor to get an even surface.  Excavated dirt will go around the low side as retaining/landscaping for the crusher run.


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## FOMOGO (Mar 3, 2021)

I know what you mean about running back and forth between buildings for tools. My current shop is around 1800 sf and will be converted into actual garage for parking and two cars, and some wood working area, plus a small one bedroom apartment for future use for a caretaker for my wife and myself down the road. Hoping to get everything moved into the new shop in the near future and have everything in one place for a change. Very nice spread you have there. Mike


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## rabler (Mar 3, 2021)

Mike,
Thanks, we're happy to be getting set up.  Hopefully for the last time as we're now both retired.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 3, 2021)

nope, no idea of that problem, I have a small enough shop (1/2 a 2 car garage) that I can usually reach across and pick up a tool from wherever I am   I don't get as much exercise though!

I honestly wouldn't know how you would solve that problem. Having one space for each activity makes the most sense, both from a tooling issue and an environmental perspective (woodworking and metalworking aren't ideal companions). You will always run into the needing a tool from somewhere else issue as they overlap so much - I use my mechanics tools on my fab work and working on my machines, I use some of my metal working tools when working on the car. Somethings are very much dual use (arbor press, hydraulic press, bench vise) so for the smaller stuff you'll just have to buy duplicates and the bigger stuff figure out either where you'll use it the most or which area will generate the heaviest parts to carry to the tool.


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## rabler (Mar 7, 2021)

Here is the building site.  I will remove topsoil in a few weeks if things dry out enough.  The driveway is just behind the treeline on the right so some of those trees will go.  I figure I will be grading the high end down 18-20”, and crusher run to fill the rest. Existing shop is on th left iin the background, house is to the right of it, barely visible through the trees.


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## rabler (Mar 14, 2021)

We got a nice stretch of sunny days without rain, the ground was starting to dry out enough to get in and start removing topsoil and start leveling, but we had to go out of town for the week.  Murphy’s law - it rained, and will be rainy for several days now that we’re back.  Argh

Really there isn’t a big rush.  I’m planning on waiting until late summer to even price building options.  I’m hoping costs on building materials will come down some.


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## rabler (Mar 21, 2021)

I'm hoping tomorrow the ground will be dry enough to at least take off the topsoil for the site.  Obviously a bulldozer would make short work of that.  But I have yet to add a dozer to my toy collection.  And probably never will, too many engines to maintain as it is.  And currently the K&T and big Monarch are taking up the garage I'm suppose to be using for those oil changes.  Is this a catch 22?

  I do have a 6' tiller on the back of my tractor, which also has a loader, so I'm just going to till the site (which only goes down about 3-4") and then use the loader to scrape the loose tilled soil off.  I'll pile all of that up on the downhill side of the site (picture foreground above) to use later for final landscaping.   Then use the mini excavator to dig out the high ground, back to the rotor tiller to get it close to level.


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## rabler (Mar 22, 2021)

Ground breaking occured.  Rain tomorrow


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## rabler (Mar 26, 2021)

Dug the perimeter drains.  These will get geotextile cloth around gravel with a perforated pipe center.  This clay soil gets soft very quickly when the soil is saturated with water.


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## rabler (Apr 1, 2021)

Gravel coming next week for the french drains.


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## tjb (Apr 1, 2021)

Looks like you're on a roll.  What part of Georgia did you live in?  I trained horses for a number of years from our farm in Madison.

Regards,
Terry


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## rabler (Apr 1, 2021)

tjb said:


> Looks like you're on a roll.  What part of Georgia did you live in?  I trained horses for a number of years from our farm in Madison.
> 
> Regards,
> Terry


We lived between Savannah and Statesboro in a community called Eden, Ga.  Before that spent quite a few years in Atlanta.  Don’t think it counts for much but I was born in Madison.  Madison, Wisconsin....


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## tjb (Apr 1, 2021)

rabler said:


> We lived between Savannah and Statesboro in a community called Eden, Ga.  Before that spent quite a few years in Atlanta.  Don’t think it counts for much but I was born in Madison.  Madison, Wisconsin....


You had me going right up to the last word in your post.  Pretty country down towards Savannah.

I'll be following your build.  Looks like you're well on the way.

Regards,
Terry


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## rabler (Apr 1, 2021)

tjb said:


> You had me going right up to the last word in your post.  Pretty country down towards Savannah.
> 
> I'll be following your build.  Looks like you're well on the way.
> 
> ...


I'm sure it sounds like I'm messing with you but I also grew up in Duluth.  Duluth, Mn that is  
I heard a rumor (don't know if it is true) that Duluth Ga was so named because the founders saw a federal proposal to fund a railroad to Duluth.  No state name given.  I sold the place near Savannah in 2018 and the house in Marietta in 2019.  Last of that money will go into building this shop.


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## tjb (Apr 1, 2021)

rabler said:


> I'm sure it sounds like I'm messing with you but I also grew up in Duluth.  Duluth, Mn that is
> I heard a rumor (don't know if it is true) that Duluth Ga was so named because the founders saw a federal proposal to fund a railroad to Duluth.  No state name given.  I sold the place near Savannah in 2018 and the house in Marietta in 2019.  Last of that money will go into building this shop.


Well, if we're gonna start messing with each other, would that be Savannah, GEORGIA?  And Marietta, GEORGIA?  A quick google search indicates there are TWELVE Savannah's in the world and NINETEEN Marietta's just in the USA.  How am I supposed to know which ones you're talking about?  And when you say, 'Georgia', are you talking about the one I live in?  For all I know, you possibly could have been talking about moving from 'Soviet' Georgia.  Didn't see a 'USA' anywhere in your original post.  (But then your mastery of the subtleties of 'down-South English' was sufficient to suggest locations much closer to me.  A dead give-away to be sure, but still a necessary assumption on my part.)

Also, I'm sure you're aware that ancient resources clearly mention an 'Eden' somewhere in the Fertile Crescent - about a third of the way around the globe.  Life was much easier for me on this one, though, because you graciously mentioned, Georgia.  But wait!  Is that Georgia, USA or Eastern Europe?  You didn't say which...  Oh, never mind.

And just for the record while we're on the subject, in your Post #14, you didn't specify which Atlanta.  Is it 'Georgia'?  And 'USA'?  I assumed as much, but for all I know, you could have been talking about:

*Atlanta*, Arkansas, unincorporated community.
*Atlanta*, California, unincorporated community.
*Atlanta*, Delaware, unincorporated community.
*Atlanta*, Idaho, unincorporated community.
*Atlanta*, Illinois, *city*.
*Atlanta*, Indiana, town.
*Atlanta*, Kansas, *city*.
*Atlanta*, Kentucky, unincorporated community.

And that's just the ones in the USA.  I'm sure you're aware that there are also FIFTEEN Atlanta's in other countries throughout the world.  Just sayin'.

Other than that, everything else in your posts was crystal clear.

Regards,
Terry

P.S.:  For some reason, I feel compelled to inform you I'm not a lawyer.


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## matthewsx (Apr 1, 2021)

Atlanta, MI


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## Marbles (Apr 1, 2021)

It is good to see the work going into the ground where it is needed. 

Excellent looking building project. 

A man of many talents to do all that.


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## tjb (Apr 1, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> Atlanta, MI


That, too.


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## rabler (Apr 1, 2021)

tjb said:


> P.S.: For some reason, I feel compelled to inform you I'm not a lawyer.


Now that truly had me laughing!


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## rabler (Apr 5, 2021)

40 tons (2 tri-axle dump trucks worth) of drainage gravel delivered yesterday, french drains going in this week.


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## BGHansen (Apr 5, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> Atlanta, MI


Not far from the Sparr mall


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## rabler (May 24, 2021)

I now have about 200 tons of gravel into this project for drainage and leveling the hillside, 130 tons delivered and rough leveled today.  I'll probably need one more truckload,  for which I'll see if I can get the driver (for an appropriate tip) to run the truck over the existing gravel several times to help compact it.   Will need to reset my corner stakes and do  a final leveling on it.

Last picture is taken from the dirt berm at the lower end, similar viewpoint to the original pasture picture.


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## rabler (Aug 29, 2021)

This project has been on hold, in part waiting for the price of lumber to come down.  I also had some medical issues that ate up much of June.  I have my 6 month post-cancer checkup coming up in a couple of weeks.  This will be four years out from finishing radiation treatment.  There is always a bit of dread associated with these checkups.  Of course with each 6-month checkup the chance of recurrence goes down somewhat.  I was enough of an odd case that it is really hard to pin odds on my case.

Anyway, I've decided that once I come back from the Sept 10 checkup, I'm going to start pricing construction.  Likely I will go with stick-frame by a local Amish crew, fairly big outfit that does a lot of work in this area.  I was originally thinking 40x64, but I've scaled it back to 40x56x12 to keep the cost down a bit, and to fit the site better.    I already have a layout in mind:




Basically I'll have a crew pour the slab, frame up and side the building.  Then I'll do interior framing, additional insulation, wiring, etc, myself.  Six windows, three each along the long walls, a 12' wide garage door and entry door on the North (right side of image), and a back entry door on the South side.   I'll put in a mini-split/ductless unit, probably one that will handle two indoor units, a small one for the office and larger for the machining area, possibly a third for the welding area.

I plan on eventually putting a light duty bridge crane in, spanning the whole building.  The space between the two interior rooms gives enough width (12') to move machines in/out.


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## rabler (Sep 17, 2021)

Deposit in yesterday to the contractor.  Expected start date is January.  

Figured out the external power plan, which allows for eventually upgrading to a 400amp service, split into two 200amp disconnects, one for the new shop, one for every thing else.  But for now sharing the current 200A service.  I’m concerned that the 20HP RPC may be too much additional load.  I do have the option of using a pony motor of starting it, that may do.


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## rabler (Sep 18, 2021)

Between now and January I'll need to do several things.  Get more gravel in to final level the site.  Probably do that in the coming week, as more time to settle is good, especially with frost season coming.    I need to dig the trench for the power lines.  I also will run a trench to the house, and plan to run water, gas, and direct-bury fiber between the house and shop.  The power line trench runs close enough to the existing workshop that I'll probably run a pex line between the two for compressed air as well.

The fiber will support internet connectivity.  Wifi to metal buildings is problematic.  As is getting any phone reception, but that's mostly spam.  I also will use the fiber to support a security camera system.  I have another 1500' fiber run over to the barns, not yet hooked up, but would like to get that all connected.  Both runs are 6 strand single-mode.  All of that requires time in the crawl space under the house.  I'd be happy if there was enough room to actually "crawl".  So much to do!


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## rabler (Oct 27, 2021)

Here's the current shop plan.  Some in-floor outlets so these will need to be placed before pouring the slab.
Overall building is 40x56x12'.  I know many have suggested 16', but 12' is what it will be.  Don't want to heat the extra space.  Cozy not cavernous.

Green is some electrical plans.  Yellow is potential light duty bridge cranes, still mulling that but seems very convenient.  Blue is doors/windows.  Black is interior divisions.  Orange is potential machine placement.  I'm keeping a 10' wide center isle running horizontally open for access.

Comments/suggestions/ideas appreciated.  Building overall dimensions and exterior door & window placement are set, other features are more flexible.


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## Alcap (Oct 27, 2021)

That’s some shop !   The garage at our new to us house has the 2 9x8’ garage doors facing almost dead south . It’s nice on warm days to be able to open the doors , glass in one section , south facings windows are nice , a plus if there’s enough overhang to keep the sun out during the summer . I’d be afraid of putting electric from the floors , I would want to keep my future options open and just have ceiling drops . Again thats me . Just thinking your have cranes so the electric would need to come another way ,


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## extropic (Oct 27, 2021)

I love the bridge cranes. I don't love the in-floor electrical but, with the cranes, I understand the intention. My only suggestion regarding in-floor is to place additional conduits to additional box locations. Even though the additional MAY always remain unused, they are cheap enough to install and will serve to provide for rearrangement should it ever become desired. There is nothing as certain as change.

It's my preference to locate the compressor in an outbuilding. You've probably seen video of the catastrophic bursting of an air receiver. I know you only have sound equipment, well maintained, however $hit happens. Think of the potential pressure pulse effect on your building, not to mention other possible victims. A small, inexpensive plastic shed outside would attenuate sound, provide weather protection and a sacrificial enclosure in case of disaster. Maybe an outbuilding doesn't appeal aesthetically. Just food for thought.

I have read comments from owners of 10' wide doors wishing they had installed 12' wide. The point was to make backing a trailer that much easier. My smallest door is 14' wide so I'm just passing on the comments of others.

I'm guessing you plan to put all small (bench/pedestal) grinders, buffers, disk and belt sanders in the welding & fab area to keep the grit away from the machine tools.

Excellent Shop.


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## rabler (Oct 27, 2021)

Alcap said:


> That’s some shop !   The garage at our new to us house has the 2 9x8’ garage doors facing almost dead south . It’s nice on warm days to be able to open the doors , glass in one section , south facings windows are nice , a plus if there’s enough overhang to keep the sun out during the summer . I’d be afraid of putting electric from the floors , I would want to keep my future options open and just have ceiling drops . Again thats me . Just thinking your have cranes so the electric would need to come another way ,


The main garage door is south facing.
I'm using floor rated, I think it's considered "mop safe" floor outlets.  I'll need to be aware of where they are if I'm moving anything heavy, as you can't roll machines on pipe over them, or forklift wheels or skates.  I have some overhead wiring in my current shop, but I'm not a fan of it for many things, even with just a rolling gantry crane it gets in the way.  I'll want to finish the ceiling and insulate it, but I do intend to run a couple of  conduits from the main to above the ceiling in case I see future need for ceiling drop wiring.


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## rabler (Oct 27, 2021)

extropic said:


> I love the bridge cranes. I don't love the in-floor electrical but, with the cranes, I understand the intention. My only suggestion regarding in-floor is to place additional conduits to additional box locations. Even though the additional MAY always remain unused, they are cheap enough to install and will serve to provide for rearrangement should it ever become desired. There is nothing as certain as change.



re cranes: The long term effects of cancer treatment have meant I struggle with loss of muscle mass, I used to be quite a bit stronger.  As a result I look into the future and see the utility of not relying on muscle for much.  I'm going to do top-running cranes to maximize lift and usable vertical clearance.   While it isn't clear from the diagram I'm considering the use of common vertical supports for the parallel run in the center, but have to investigate that from a structural perspective.  I can keep the unsupported span of the tracks limited to roughly 15' max.   W12x16  looks like it works for both span and tracks.  That's over 3200 lbs of steel, not going to be cheap.  I'll keep my eyes open for a suitable second hand crane, but not hopeful.

Electrical: It's a bit of a trade off.  The floor outlets alleviate cords that are trip points or outright obstructions for walking, but they create challenges in the floor for both layout of equipment, and for moving equipment as I wouldn't want to place more than a walking load on them (I think they are rated for more, but some of my machines, etc, exceed 4 tons.).    editted to add:  I haven't shown all wall outlets, just the bench height ones.

True, I agree on the air compressor and have thought of a small tin shed attached to that same corner.  Sounds and safety are improved.  That corner has a steep slope so it will require some dirt moving, but I have suitable equipment so that's not a real obstacle.  The dust collector needs to recycle air from the shop to avoid heat/cooling loss.  It would make more sense to locate the dust collector on the top side but that side of the building is very close to tilled field that I rent out.  All of the grinding will be just to the left of the area marked stock & storage (SG is surface grinder).  I had originally planned on a room mirroring the office but that reduces flexibility.

door size: I have a 10' wide door on another facility.  I also have a nice sized tractor that can move my gooseneck trailer loaded down with 10 tons of hay.  I don't have a problem using the tractor to back trailers into a 10' opening. The garage at the barns, which currently houses the Monarch 612 and the K&t 3K, has a 10x10 door.  I would want a wider door if I had to rely only on a truck for backing in a trailer.  As it is I think I'll prefer the usable wall space.    That tractor also has a loader capable of lifting about 3500 lbs, so that is my "forklift" for light duty work.  I'm going to have to rent something much bigger to move the larger equipment in.

Thanks for the suggestions - I know I'm discounting 2 of 3 but I'm still glad to get the comments.


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## rabler (Oct 27, 2021)

Sequencing is a key reason for planning - so I currently have:
1) place floor outlets
2) concrete pour (by building contractor)
3) install electrical main and sub panel, rough wire lights
TBD) Install wood stove, gas heater, mini-splits (going to need some heat asap, but not all three)
4) seal concrete after 30 days 
5) finish ceiling
6) install crane verticals and tracks.
7) frame out walls and divider
8) finish out wiring
9) finish out walls, build workbenches
10) start moving in equipment


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## NCjeeper (Oct 27, 2021)

I just found this thread. Good luck with everything. Tough time to build with everything going on.


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## rabler (Oct 28, 2021)

NCjeeper said:


> I just found this thread. Good luck with everything. Tough time to build with everything going on.


I really wanted to start building last spring but waited for lumber to come down somewhat.  Still cringing at costs.


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## rabler (Nov 9, 2021)

Amish contractor lead came by to check the site yesterday.  He gave it the go ahead, so still on track for January.  I called for utility marking today, this weekend I’ll break out the excavator and trench in power lines to the meter, and water, gas and internet from the house.


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## extropic (Nov 9, 2021)

rabler said:


> <snip    Thanks for the suggestions - I know I'm discounting 2 of 3 but I'm still glad to get the comments.



That's why we call it YOUR shop. In my shop I get to decide.

I'd like to discuss the in-floor electrical a little more.
It's my understanding that in-slab boxes and devices are crazy expensive. That's not particularly attractive, if you haven't already spent the money.
An alternative way to allow free travel of the bridge crane(s) would be to put electrical drops on jibs. The jib arms would swing just below the fixed  crane support beams. I'm visualizing the jibs made of EMT with a 90° bend at both ends, longer vertical tube at the wall end and a brace (smaller EMT welded on? in compression) on the bottom to keep the jib as high a possible. The power cord (SEOOW or SOOW?) would run inside the conduit. You would probably want a Kellum strain relief at each drop. Kellums aren't cheap either but I've gotten quite a few off of eBay for very reasonable $$. The drops would be connected to equipment/panels with twist locks. You want to traverse the bridge? You just unplug the electrical drop(s) and swing the jib(s) out of the way.

Fire away.


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## rabler (Nov 9, 2021)

extropic said:


> That's why we call it YOUR shop. In my shop I get to decide.


Yep, but sharing ideas is what this forum is about, so I’m happy to chat.


extropic said:


> I'd like to discuss the in-floor electrical a little more.
> It's my understanding that in-slab boxes and devices are crazy expensive. That's not particularly attractive, if you haven't already spent the money.
> An alternative way to allow free travel of the bridge crane(s) would be to put electrical drops on jibs. The jib arms would swing just below the fixed  crane support beams. I'm visualizing the jibs made of EMT with a 90° bend at both ends, longer vertical tube at the wall end and a brace (smaller EMT welded on? in compression) on the bottom to keep the jib as high a possible. The power cord (SEOOW or SOOW?) would run inside the conduit. You would probably want a Kellum strain relief at each drop. Kellums aren't cheap either but I've gotten quite a few off of eBay for very reasonable $$. The drops would be connected to equipment/panels with twist locks. You want to traverse the bridge? You just unplug the electrical drop(s) and swing the jib(s) out of the way.
> 
> Fire away.


I have in hand 3 in-concrete floor boxes.  Each box costs about $70, and holds two duplex outlets, so 4 total plugs.
Each box needs a metal cover, which is pricey $140.  I haven’t purchased those yet. Don’t need those before pouring concrete.

My plan is to use a fair amount of wall outlets.  I have one area, the lower left in my earlier sketch, where I will have an island of several machines with benches surrounding them.  I expect that area to be have machines not exceeding 20A 220V circuits, where I would like to not fight cords.  I foresee frequently using the overhead crane to move things between machine and bench.  Any unplugging there would quickly get old.  So I’m planning two boxes (8 total receptacles) there, and one in-floor box by the horizontal bandsaw as I foresee frequently hoisting stock into that.

Planning on a top-running bridge design, so your jib idea would work quite well for the larger 3phase machines since the only time the jib would interfere is if the hoist needs to pass through the jib.  Those will be the larger machines, with more space around them, easy to navigate around those jibs.


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## rabler (Nov 9, 2021)

Here’s the utility layout for the lot.


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## rabler (Nov 15, 2021)

I made a couple of shop tour videos.  Well, really videos of everything before the new shop goes in.  My first real attempt at YouTube videos.
Shop pre-tour part 1
Shop pre-tour part 2
I think  YouTube is still crunching on the second one, so if you jump to it too quickly it may not work.


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## extropic (Nov 15, 2021)

Thanks for the tours Randal. It looks like you're not starved for projects any time soon.

Too bad that cat hates you so much.


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## rabler (Nov 17, 2021)

Burying the cable for 200A electric service to the new shop.  Three strands of 4/0, one strand of 2/0 for ground.  Local power company line foreman is suppose to come by either today or next week to discuss a 400A (2 x 200A) service upgrade.


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

I do enjoy running the excavator.  The electronic controls on the newer ones make it a lot less fatiguing to operate the joysticks, and make it easy to maintain fine control.    The thumb on the excavator is convenient for picking up stumps, limbs, etc.  Here is a view from the corner of the house.  The driveway is just about impassible right now.   I've got a couple red cones across the driveway to avoid someone driving up and hitting the trench or the spools of various lines going in.   UPS trucks worry me 



Got the digging done up to the two foot buffer for the power line.  Need to fire up the pressure washer today and expose the buried line.  It was a bit chilly last night (25F), so waiting for it to warm up before working with water.


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## extropic (Nov 19, 2021)

Randal,
Please explain the " two foot buffer for the power line". I don't know why, where, what the intention is.


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

extropic said:


> Randal,
> Please explain the " two foot buffer for the power line". I don't know why, where, what the intention is.


The buried power main from the pole to the meter, should be buried about 3' down.  I had the 811 service come out and mark the location.  By law in Indiana (most states) you can not use power equipment to dig closer than 2' of the marked location, technically 2' + the radius of the service, so if you're dealing with a 2' sewer main, it would be 3'.    Within that 2' you need to expose the underground utility by hand before continuing with any heavy equipment.   Since my utilities to the new building need to cross the power main, it needs to be dug up by hand.  Some google searching reveals that using a pressure washer is a reasonable way to dig "by hand" as long as you keep the wand at least 8" (I'm going with 12") from any potential utility.


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## extropic (Nov 19, 2021)

Looking at your Utility Layout Sketch, I'm wondering if you are trying to put the new conductors in the same trench as the existing service conductors (lots of power washing)? Or, are the new conductors going in a new, essentially parallel trench, so the pressure washing will only be in close proximity to the existing meter/disconnect panel?


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

extropic said:


> Looking at your Utility Layout Sketch, I'm wondering if you are trying to put the new conductors in the same trench as the existing service conductors (lots of power washing)? Or, are the new conductors going in a new, essentially parallel trench, so the pressure washing will only be in close proximity to the existing meter/disconnect panel?



Parallel  trench greater than 2' appart for the power lines, so only place of proximity is the existing disconnect.  Soil here is clay, so any length of pressure washer digging would truly be tedious (and cold).  But the fiber optic, gas, and water lines are coming from the house so they need to cross the existing service entrance for the power.

Ideally the gas, water and fiber would be in separate trenches in case there is cause to dig one up at a later time.  But given they have to cross that buried power cable, they are all going in together.   Safe bury depth for water here is about 32" for frost purposes.  I'm trenching most of it 4' down, but may cross above the power line which should be at 36" or more deep.  If I come above 3' with the water/gas/fiber, I'll put them in a conduit bundle with a bit EPS foam over them and then pour some concrete over that.


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## jwmelvin (Nov 19, 2021)

I like your crossover plan. I’d be tempted to lay an open pipe somewhere along the way in case of future needs. 

I hear what you are saying about the excavator. A modern one sounds nice. I’ve played with my dad’s small track loader/excavator in Hawaii. Back during initial construction I dropped my end of a granite countertop and broke the corner off, so I can appreciate the beauty of electronic controls.


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> I like your crossover plan. I’d be tempted to lay an open pipe somewhere along the way in case of future needs.
> 
> I hear what you are saying about the excavator. A modern one sounds nice. I’ve played with my dad’s small track loader/excavator in Hawaii. Back during initial construction I dropped my end of a granite countertop and broke the corner off, so I can appreciate the beauty of electronic controls.


That's not a bad idea, a couple of capped 3" or 4" conduits, 5' long, perpendicular to the new stuff, with a locator tape tied to each end up to the surface.

Of course, it may make the most sense to stub something like that in through the floor of the new building.


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## woodchucker (Nov 19, 2021)

is capping with concrete normal?

do they require a tracer wire ?  Around here certain lines require a tracer line that they can hook up a transmitter to and use a receiver to trace it out. I'm just not sure which type of service lines require it.


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> is capping with concrete normal?


I'm working under a driveway.  Capping conduit with concrete is a common way to increase crush resistance, for say when a load dump truck or concrete truck drives over that spot.   I would not want to put concrete directly around buried wire or pipe, as I believe it could crack and induce shear points with sharp edges on those lines.   If I cap w/ concrete, I'll need to put the EPS over the concrete, I think I implied wrong above.

Everything I'm installing is "private", meaning it on my side of the utility demark.   Generally gas lines on the utility side of the meter have a tracer wire.  Power and phone don't need wire tracing.  Water is not usually traced since the utility company puts the meter in the road right of way. 

Ironically, here in Indiana, the county roads are not county property.  They are a public right of way across private property.  Fairly narrow right of way too, most of the right of ways are 30'.  That usually means the pavement is maybe 15' wide.


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## woodchucker (Nov 19, 2021)

rabler said:


> I'm working under a driveway.  Capping conduit with concrete is a common way to increase crush resistance, for say when a load dump truck or concrete truck drives over that spot.   I would not want to put concrete directly around buried wire or pipe, as I believe it could crack and induce shear points with sharp edges on those lines.   If I cap w/ concrete, I'll need to put the EPS over the concrete, I think I implied wrong above.


Makes sense for the driveway.


rabler said:


> Everything I'm installing is "private", meaning it on my side of the utility demark.   Generally gas lines on the utility side of the meter have a tracer wire.  Power and phone don't need wire tracing.  Water is not usually traced since the utility company puts the meter in the road right of way.


again, seems reasonable.


rabler said:


> Ironically, here in Indiana, the county roads are not county property.  They are a public right of way across private property.  Fairly narrow right of way too, most of the right of ways are 30'.  That usually means the pavement is maybe 15' wide.


That's way different than here or NY.


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## extropic (Nov 19, 2021)

rabler said:


> <snip    That usually means the *pavement is maybe 15' wide.*



That activated my pucker switch. Reminds me of country lanes in England. Keeping track of turnouts was important.
Heaven forbid two semis try to pass. Do people commonly stop, on the shoulder, to let larger vehicles pass?


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

extropic said:


> That activated my pucker switch. Reminds me of country lanes in England. Keeping track of turnouts was important.
> Heaven forbid two semis try to pass. Do people commonly stop, on the shoulder, to let larger vehicles pass?


Yep, pretty much mandatory.  Most people will pull over onto the edge of the road and slow just for two pickups to pass.

Reminds me of bicycling narrow roads in Ireland.  Narrow roads certainly, but stone fences with thorny vines only two feet or so from the edge of the road.


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

I should add today’s real challenge was starting the pressure washer, which hadn’t been used in a few years.  Even though I use fuel stabilizer, I had to pull the carb off and clean it out.


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## extropic (Nov 19, 2021)

rabler said:


> Yep, pretty much mandatory.  Most people will pull over onto the edge of the road and slow just for *two pickups* to pass.
> 
> Reminds me of bicycling narrow roads in Ireland.  Narrow roads certainly, but stone fences with thorny vines only two feet or so from the edge of the road.



Yes.  After I posted the question about semis, I thought, "Wait a minute. Dully pick-ups are as wide as semis."


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

Most duallys run 96” wide.  Most semi trailers are 102” now a day, as does my gooseneck flatbed.  The real challenge is farm tractors and combines.  We’re lucky to have hills and forest, but this area has plenty of 640 acre farm fields.  So 12’ wide or wider ag equipment is common on the roads in October for harvesting.  Most farmers are pretty polite, but sometimes you can get stuck behind on for several miles doing 20mph if they are inattentive.  Some of the crop sprayers you could drive under in a car.

When I finish the new building I’ll have to rent a off-road heavy lift forklift or telehandler to move the 612 and the K&T.  That’ll mean driving down the road about a 1/4 mile with a 12’ wide lathe


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## rabler (Nov 19, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> That's way different than here or NY.


Georgia requires 60’ wide even for a private right of way.


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## rabler (Nov 20, 2021)

Got the buried power line exposed, tomorrow I can put the gas line, water line and fiber under that power line, and close it all up.

White pex in first picture trench will be buried air line between shops.  Gas line, water line and fiber by the tractor front tire.  The orange stake sticking out of the ground in line with the front edge of the tractor bucket marks where I have dug up the buried power line with the pressure washer.  Makes a mucky mess of the clay.  Professionally they use a large vacuum to suck the water out, like suction at the dentist on a heavy machinery scale.  Second pic you can see the back of the meter panel in front of the bucket, and the new line for the shop sticking up out of the ground. The building to the left is the existing shop.  I decided to throw the line in for compressed air between the shops since I was trenching most of the way there anyway.


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## extropic (Nov 20, 2021)

rabler said:


> Most duallys run 96” wide.  Most semi trailers are 102” now a day, as does my gooseneck flatbed.  The real challenge is farm tractors and combines.  We’re lucky to have hills and forest, but this area has plenty of 640 acre farm fields.  So 12’ wide or wider ag equipment is common on the roads in October for harvesting.  Most farmers are pretty polite, but sometimes you can get stuck behind on for several miles doing 20mph if they are inattentive.  Some of the crop sprayers you could drive under in a car.
> 
> *When I finish the new building* I’ll have to rent a off-road heavy lift forklift or telehandler to move the 612 and the K&T. That’ll mean driving down the road about a 1/4 mile with a 12’ wide lathe



96" or 102" seem awful similar at a closing speed of 60-80 MPH.   

Use the forklift to put the machine(s) on your trailer and tow to the new shop. Some shuffling around to get the forklift to both locations but using the trailer sounds a lot safer to me. YMMV


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## ddickey (Nov 21, 2021)

@rabler How much if any separation do you have to maintain with that shared trench?
Also do you have to lay down caution tape in the trench?


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## woodchucker (Nov 21, 2021)

if you are laying gas down in that trench, around here you require sand underneath and above before backfilling. They don't want any rocks piercing that hose.


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## rabler (Nov 21, 2021)

ddickey said:


> @rabler How much if any separation do you have to maintain with that shared trench?
> Also do you have to lay down caution tape in the trench?


Separation between what?  Regardless, no requirements that I know of.



woodchucker said:


> if you are laying gas down in that trench, around here you require sand underneath and above before backfilling. They don't want any rocks piercing that hose.


No rocks in the soil here, all clay.


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## ddickey (Nov 21, 2021)

My only reason to ask is because I'm curious. When I trenched my gas and electrical line in the same trench I had to separate the gas from the electrical 24". I also had to place caution tape along the gas line. My soil here is 100% sand.
Oh yeah, I also had to get permission from the masters at city hall to install a water softener. lol


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## rabler (Nov 21, 2021)

ddickey said:


> My only reason to ask is because I'm curious. When I trenched my gas and electrical line in the same trench I had to separate the gas from the electrical 24". I also had to place caution tape along the gas line. My soil here is 100% sand.
> Oh yeah, I also had to get permission from the masters at city hall to install a water softener. lol


The ONLY permitting and inspection process here is for septic tanks, unless you count the assessor's office.  They come around every 2-3 years.


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## FOMOGO (Nov 21, 2021)

Here you would run them in separate trench, and run a tracer wire with the gas line. Mike


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## ddickey (Nov 21, 2021)

Oh yeah. I forgot about the tracer wire too.


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## rabler (Dec 2, 2021)

Got the quote for upgrading the service from the power company.  $925 to upgrade from 200A service to a 400A service.  For that, they trench in the wire from the pole to the meter, including providing the wire, conduit, meter, and meter base.  I was expecting at least twice that, so I'm pleased.  The 400 amp service will go to an outdoor panel, two service disconnects 200A each, one for the existing house and outbuildings, and a second 200A service for the new shop.   I'll still need to provide the panel, and everything after the meter.

They initially talked about needing to do an analysis on the lines and load, and wanted to know what machines (what HP) I was putting into the new shop that needed the upgrade.  And if those motors started under load. I told them 10HP 3 phase motors using an RPC with a 20HP idler, no load at startup.  That might have to go through engineering as we don't want the lights flickering.  I told the line foreman that I was already running that setup 1/4 mile further down the road on a different drop.  Oh, well in that case, it's working OK now so we'll just go ahead an approve that without an engineering review.  You're only a mile away from the substation anyway.

Only catch is they are currently out of 400A meter bases, supply chain issues.  So install date is TBD based on when they get those in.  But construction hasn't started yet, so even a couple months is fine.  I just need to pay up in the next 30 days to lock in that price.


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## woodchucker (Dec 2, 2021)

less than I would have thought too.


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## ddickey (Dec 2, 2021)

That's really cheap. What is the monthly meter charge? Here it is $15.


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## jwmelvin (Dec 2, 2021)

Yea that seems pretty great. Nice progress.


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## rabler (Dec 2, 2021)

ddickey said:


> That's really cheap. What is the monthly meter charge? Here it is $15.


I’d have to check but that sounds about right.  We pay for two drops as the barns are separate from the house.

Power is a membership co-op, and there are several coal power plants as well as coal mines within 50 miles.  Big industry in this area.   I’d guess we’re on the low end of the electrical cost range.  

Lots of oil wells too.  I’ve dug up oil pipe, apparently there was a well on our property in the 90’s.  Glad it’s gone, rotten eggs sulfur smell around the wells.


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## woodchucker (Dec 2, 2021)

rabler said:


> I’d have to check but that sounds about right.  We pay for two drops as the barns are separate from the house.
> 
> Power is a membership co-op, and there are several coal power plants as well as coal mines within 50 miles.  Big industry in this area.   I’d guess we’re on the low end of the electrical cost range.
> 
> Lots of oil wells too.  I’ve dug up oil pipe, apparently there was a well on our property in the 90’s.  Glad it’s gone, rotten eggs sulfur smell around the wells.


I think that was a bout of flatulence.. ahhh  
How far from you are the nearest 3phase lines?
I am between 2 schools, a middle school (closer  about 400ft from my house) and a high school 1/2 mile as the crow flies.. 3phase from middle school is very close  But might as well be 2 miles...


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## rabler (Dec 2, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> How far from you are the nearest 3phase lines?


Funny you should ask.  About a block in one direction, 1/2 mile in the other.  We’re very close to the end of the line (our barn is the end of the line).  Lots of big farms around so three phase is very common for grain elevators,etc.


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## rabler (Dec 3, 2021)

I thought about asking about 3 phase.  I believe, but am not sure, that 3 phase service would entail a third meter drop, two is enough. The rural electric co-op is a small operation, if I asked I might confuse the whole thing.  Realistically I just don't use it for more than a few hours a week, and the RPC does fine. 

 I have thought about modifying my RPC to be intelligent, to improve line voltage balancing under widely varying loads, that's on the project list.   A microcontroller could easily monitor the line voltage a few hundred times a second, and kick in additional capacitance if needed.   Use a voltage divider and an analog opto-isolator to safely capture the line voltage on each leg.   

Nyquist sampling (120 samples/sec) doesn't really capture transients and voltage changes readily, and gets mathematically messy.  Alternatives are to sample each leg around 1000 samples/sec and run through a software peak dectector, or use hardware peak detector circuit (diode) with the right RC time constant to readily pick up 60Hz to within a couple volts margin of error.  Software might give some options on additional noise analysis.    Easy enough to add on LCD display with voltage for each leg, and measure current with some Hall detectors.   Thinking this will be a fun project to try out the new Raspberry PI 2040 microcontroller to build.  Could include some data logging features with USB data dump.  Might be a good topic for a new thread.


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## ahazi (Dec 4, 2021)

rabler said:


> I thought about asking about 3 phase.  I believe, but am not sure, that 3 phase service would entail a third meter drop, two is enough. The rural electric co-op is a small operation, if I asked I might confuse the whole thing.  Realistically I just don't use it for more than a few hours a week, and the RPC does fine.
> 
> I have thought about modifying my RPC to be intelligent, to improve line voltage balancing under widely varying loads, that's on the project list.   A microcontroller could easily monitor the line voltage a few hundred times a second, and kick in additional capacitance if needed.   Use a voltage divider and an analog opto-isolator to safely capture the line voltage on each leg.
> 
> Nyquist sampling (120 samples/sec) doesn't really capture transients and voltage changes readily, and gets mathematically messy.  Alternatives are to sample each leg around 1000 samples/sec and run through a software peak dectector, or use hardware peak detector circuit (diode) with the right RC time constant to readily pick up 60Hz to within a couple volts margin of error.  Software might give some options on additional noise analysis.    Easy enough to add on LCD display with voltage for each leg, and measure current with some Hall detectors.   Thinking this will be a fun project to try out the new Raspberry PI 2040 microcontroller to build.  Could include some data logging features with USB data dump.  Might be a good topic for a new thread.


I don't think the 3 phase electric motor cares much about those little voltage variations/spikes/phase imbalance it simply integrates them like a LPF. If you use a VFD you will get the best ability to fine tune the motor speed and torque even under load. I have a VFD on my lathe and absolutely love and use the speed control while running the lathe, in particular when facing or parting, I increase the speed as I am getting closer to the center.

Ariel


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## rabler (Dec 4, 2021)

ahazi said:


> I don't think the 3 phase electric motor cares much about those little voltage variations/spikes/phase imbalance it simply integrates them like a LPF. If you use a VFD you will get the best ability to fine tune the motor speed and torque even under load. I have a VFD on my lathe and absolutely love and use the speed control while running the lathe, in particular when facing or parting, I increase the speed as I am getting closer to the center.
> 
> Ariel


Ariel,
Short transient, you are correct.  Shifting load demand, not so. Unbalanced three phase results in degrading performance in three phase motors.  Classical run capacitors used in RPCs only balance the voltages properly at one load.  Issue with transients is getting reasonably accurate analog to digital sampling to measure voltage in the presence of transients and other power line noise.   A full analysis would be to essentially run a spectrum analysis via Fourier transform or DFT.  That’s way overkill, but would be interesting given possible power line noise sources like VFDs.

I use several VFDs, typically for machines up to 3 hp. I have machines with 10HP main motors such as my K&T 3K mill, where VFDs get pricey. My big lathe has four motors (main, rapids, hydraulic, coolant) VFDs just wouldn’t be practical.  I have a couple of surface grinders that I'll eventually rebuild, both of them have two motors, spindle and hydraulic. Long term I’d like to add a cnc VMC.     All of that is covered by one RPC. I've had to replace the Delta VFD in my smaller mill to the tune of over $400, Grizzly wanted over $900.   Price out a decent VFD that will turn a 10HP motor on single phase input.

Being a hobbyist doesn’t always mean small.


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## ahazi (Dec 4, 2021)

rabler said:


> Ariel,
> Short transient, you are correct.  Shifting load demand, not so. Unbalanced three phase results in degrading performance in three phase motors.  Classical run capacitors used in RPCs only balance the voltages properly at one load.  Issue with transients is getting reasonably accurate analog to digital sampling to measure voltage in the presence of transients and other power line noise.   A full analysis would be to essentially run a spectrum analysis via Fourier transform or DFT.  That’s way overkill, but would be interesting given possible power line noise sources like VFDs.
> 
> I use several VFDs, typically for machines up to 3 hp. I have machines with 10HP main motors such as my K&T 3K mill, where VFDs get pricey. My big lathe has four motors (main, rapids, hydraulic, coolant) VFDs just wouldn’t be practical.  I have a couple of surface grinders that I'll eventually rebuild, both of them have two motors, spindle and hydraulic. Long term I’d like to add a cnc VMC.     All of that is covered by one RPC. I've had to replace the Delta VFD in my smaller mill to the tune of over $400, Grizzly wanted over $900.   Price out a decent VFD that will turn a 10HP motor on single phase input.
> ...


I have no personal experience generating 3 phases out of an RPC. I used 3 phase that "came from the wall..." starting many years ago as a teenager with my very first drill press that had a 3 phase motor. These days I am using VFD.

Your idea for a "research project" sounds interesting but will be very time consuming. From my experience the RPi is not suitable for any real time work. Don't ask how I know that... Check out RPi with LinuxCNC, the issues of RT kernel pops up immediately.

A friend of mine that had similar requirements to yours for a high capacity 3 phase source just bought this:
PHASEPERFECT 240V Digital Phase Converter PT020
expensive and very capable. 

Ariel


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## rabler (Dec 4, 2021)

ahazi said:


> From my experience the RPi is not suitable for any real time work. Don't ask how I know that... Check out RPi with LinuxCNC, the issues of RT kernel pops up immediately.


If you google RP2040, despite being made by Raspberry Pi, it's not a linux CPU, it's a stand alone dual core microcontroller, and is even supported in the Arduino environment.


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## ahazi (Dec 4, 2021)

rabler said:


> If you google RP2040, despite being made by Raspberry Pi, it's not a linux CPU, it's a stand alone dual core microcontroller, and is even supported in the Arduino environment.


You are right, it is a microcontroller and it does not run Linux, can probably do the job. I am not certain but you might need to stay away from MicroPython if you want some predictable performance or if you need real multithreading. 

Will this chip be able to do your RT FFT calculations with enough resolution fast enough?

Ariel


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## jwmelvin (Dec 4, 2021)

ahazi said:


> Will this chip be able to do your RT FFT calculations with enough resolution fast enough?



I imagine it will. I had a Teensy microcontroller doing audio FFT pretty quickly several years ago.


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## WobblyHand (Dec 4, 2021)

FWIW, used an Adafruit M4 Feather Express to run continuous 1K floating point FFT's sampled at 30KHz.  ADC sampling done via DMA. Sampling never stops.  Pretty good for a $22 board.  Made a radar chronograph using the M4 and a $3 Aliexpress doppler sensor.  (And an analog front end that I had to make.)  Was a fun project.  There are a lot of capable boards out there.


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## rabler (Jan 7, 2022)

Target start date for the construction crew pushed back from ”tentatively Jan 3rd” to “by end January“. (_Six weeks). _Power co still doesn’t have 400A meter bases in yet.


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## rabler (Jan 18, 2022)

Finally got the 400A meter base in from the PowerCo today.  MInor frustration, the local big box store, a Menards, carries electrical PVC conduit in 2" and 3".  Code issues aside, shoving three 4/0 wires with a 2/0 ground (i.e., mobile home feeder) through a 2" conduit is a recipe for much anxiety, unless you have a really good sense of humour and lots of wire lube anyway.  Unfortunately the two service disconnect panels I have  go to 2 1/2" max pipe size for the conduit knockouts.      I'll have to make the two hour round trip into Evansville tomorrow to Lowe's or HD to pick up some 2 1/2" conduit and fittings.  For the link to from the meter to the first disconnect I used a sharpie and a jig saw, so it accomodates 3" PVC.  Probably a NEC violation, but it'll work fine.


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## woodchucker (Jan 18, 2022)

well, that's some progress. You need a trip out anyway. slow down and smell the roses, or manure.. whatever is along the way.


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## rabler (Jan 19, 2022)

Some progress, I got the meter base and the two disconnects physically mounted.  I need to run the conduits into the ground and bring the mobile home feeder up into the disconnects.  The power co will deal with the meter side of the install.  Temps are suppose to be below freezing for a high for the next few days so I'm less likely to be motivated to work on this, especially if we get rain/snow tonight as forecast, as the clay gets really nasty.  I had to run to Menards, Lowe's, Home Depot, and the local hardware store to get enough conduit parts to put this all together.  Apparently there is a real supply chain shortage for 2 1/2" PVC electrical conduit

On a more exciting front, the Amish contractor contacted me today to say they hope to start next Thursday.


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## extropic (Jan 19, 2022)

I empathize regarding the extended field trip to collect supplies. Did you have to endure the clerk that doesn't know what you're talking about but wastes excessive time offering completely inappropriate options? It happens to me fairly regularly, and I even provide visual aids (sometimes). I'm not comfortable living in the "third world".  

I had to go back to reply #39 to see the utility layout sketch. Please clarify, will the new meter replace the old meter? In other words, you will end up with one meter on the lot so the house and current (small) shop will be fed from one of the new 200A disconnects? Alternatively, the existing meter will remain to feed the house only and one new 200A disconnect will feed the current (small) shop only?

The crew shows up on the 27th? I hope you have unseasonably mild weather and the crew makes great progress.


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## woodchucker (Jan 19, 2022)

that's great on them being able to start next Thurs.
I have experienced the PVC shortage myself. Went to both HD and Lowes and no 1 1/2 and 2 quite a few months ago.  Was surprised at the price too. it had gone up  by almost a 90%. Which shocked the hell out of me.


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## rabler (Jan 19, 2022)

extropic said:


> I empathize regarding the extended field trip to collect supplies. Did you have to endure the clerk that doesn't know what you're talking about but wastes excessive time offering completely inappropriate options? It happens to me fairly regularly, and I even provide visual aids (sometimes). I'm not comfortable living in the "third world".
> 
> I had to go back to reply #39 to see the utility layout sketch. Please clarify, will the new meter replace the old meter? In other words, you will end up with one meter on the lot so the house and current (small) shop will be fed from one of the new 200A disconnects? Alternatively, the existing meter will remain to feed the house only and one new 200A disconnect will feed the current (small) shop only?
> 
> The crew shows up on the 27th? I hope you have unseasonably mild weather and the crew makes great progress.


I actually ran into a friend at Home Depot, so I chatted with him and his wife for a good 15 minutes, while one of the workers offered to check the computer and see if they had what I needed.  No luck.  Self checkout so didn't have to deal with the "did you find everything you need" at the checkout.

The old meter will get removed.  The leftmost box in the picture above is for the meter.  Happily it has dual lugs to allow easy connection to two service disconnects.  The left disconnect (middle box) above will go to the new metalshop, the right disconnect to the connection point for the old meter which will cover the house and old shop.  The old shop eventually becomes the just for woodworking.  I'm referring to the new shop as "the metalshop" and the old shop as "the woodshop" in my mind.

My experience with this Amish group is once they start, they move pretty fast.  They run something like 20 crews, and they have in-house sheet metal and wood beam building capability, so they don't start until they have all the materials in hand.  In fact the local building supply lumber yard uses them as a metal supplier.  I would expect next Thursday that if they do start, a truck will show up with ALL of the building materials except the concrete.  A single crew works on one building at a time to completion.


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## rabler (Jan 19, 2022)

extropic said:


> I had to go back to reply #39 to see the utility layout sketch.


P.S.  Credit to you for even remembering that I'd uploaded such a sketch!


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## rabler (Jan 28, 2022)

Construction of the new shop started today.   Crew showed up along with a semi-truck of building materials.  Unfortunately a dusting of snow had the crew quitting at lunch time, but they got all of the poles set in concrete before leaving.




I've also finished up enough of the new 400A distribution/service disconnect panel that I called the power co. Wednesday and told them to proceed with trenching the lines from the power pole to that panel.  Lots of little flags showed up all over the yard yesterday.


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## woodchucker (Jan 28, 2022)

rabler said:


> Construction of the new shop started today.   Crew showed up along with a semi-truck of building materials.  Unfortunately a dusting of snow had the crew quitting at lunch time, but they got all of the poles set in concrete before leaving.
> View attachment 394099
> View attachment 394100
> 
> ...


Randal, are the poles going into the concrete, or are they using simpson ties?
if not simpson ties, did they add any protection to the poles? Creosote, tar?


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## rabler (Jan 29, 2022)

This is as far as they got yesterday.  They’ll be back wednesday, apparently they had another job to finish up and just wanted to get the posts set.  I think that’s the story anyway, it may be they were trying to also meet the promise of starting by the end of January.


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## rabler (Jan 30, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Randal, are the poles going into the concrete, or are they using simpson ties?
> if not simpson ties, did they add any protection to the poles? Creosote, tar?


Jeff,
The posts are sitting on a concrete "cookie", basically a 18" round precast concrete disk about 5" thick.  That cookie is put in the bottom of the 4' hole after they auger it.  Then the hole is filled with some bagged concrete, and the hole is refilled with gravel.  The poles are fabricated from multiple 2" x 6" that are finger jointed and laminated together in a staggered configuration (so the finger joints don't all line up).  The lower section is ground contact treated wood, upper section is not.  They are not otherwise creosoted, etc.  Yes, I could see the bottom of the posts rotting out after some time.  As long as it lasts 20-25 years I'll get my use out of it.  The one thing I did to improve overall longevity of the building is to put some serious work into drainage under the building.  The uphill side and the two long sides of the building have a 2' deep x 2' wide trench dug around it, with a perforated 3" pipe laid in gravel and covered with geotextile cloth.  The base for the concrete is only a few inches of gravel on the uphill side, tapering to about 3' of gravel on the low end.  The gravel on the low end extends about 8' beyond the building, along the same grade as a drainage path.  So that water will not sit under the slab.  Once the building is done I'll use the tractor and excavator to finish the final grade to make sure surface drainage is away from the building.  My feeling is that this moisture control is one of the key factors in overall building longevity, as it also significantly reduces any issues with frost heaving and the gravel gives a good base for the concrete.  The native soil here is very much a clay, so it is non-porous and not good at load bearing.  Hopefully this is sufficient.  Ultimately a few cracks in the concrete are to be expected, as long as I don't get large gaps that interfere with moving machines I'm not too worried.


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## matthewsx (Jan 30, 2022)

Standard pole building construction. I had a 40x60 built like that. Should last longer than I will.

John


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## 7milesup (Jan 30, 2022)

rabler said:


> As long as it lasts 20-25 years I'll get my use out of it.


If it has been treated for ground contact it should be rated to 40 years.  It sounds like you did everything you could in regards to water abatement so I would think that you would be on the higher end of the wood lifespan specifications.


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## matthewsx (Jan 30, 2022)

Ground prep is super important for these buildings.

I got lucky, a local farmer who also runs an excavating business really wanted the black dirt I had on the lot. I traded him for all the prep and only had to put for the sand, saved a ton of money.

There are times I miss that place but not now with the cold and snow.

John


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## rabler (Jan 30, 2022)

Here is a pic from the downhill side.  Got the electrical panel invthe foreground finished today, so I’m just waiting for the local utility co-op to get it trenched out to the pole.  200a disconnect for the new shop, 200a for the house and misc.


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## rabler (Feb 4, 2022)

Patience is not my strong point.  A whole week, and no progress.  Rain, and freezing rain, and then snow.  The town is shutdown.


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## extropic (Feb 4, 2022)

Silver lining: The crew will be well rested and anxious to get on with it, when the weather allows.


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## NCjeeper (Feb 4, 2022)

rabler said:


> A whole week, and no progress.  Rain, and freezing rain, and then snow.


I know your pain well. Mother nature set me back 6 months on my shop build.


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## Just for fun (Feb 4, 2022)

When I had my shop put up,  my wife and I leveled the site real nice.   But by the time the builders showed up the weather turned bad.   It turned super muddy inside the building.  The bulder cleaned it out with his skid steer and piled all the mud next to the building.  Oh well,  they did a great job building the building.   And we're a joy to be around.   Not so much with a couple other buildings we had built.


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## jwmay (Feb 4, 2022)

rabler said:


> d freezing rain, and then snow. The town is shutdown.


Well it's probably not going to help you any, but I sure did enjoy the extra three days off this week. Can't say I made a bit of progress on anything, but yep...sure was nice. Three snow days! I haven't experienced that since grade school.


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## rabler (Feb 8, 2022)

Progress
	

		
			
		

		
	




I’ve been inviting the crew to come into my smaller shop to eat lunch, otherwise they pack 5 guys in an crew cab pickup to eat out of the weather.  Lots of interest in the old machine tools.  One of them had run a Monarch lathe much like my Monarch CK.

Unfortunately one of the younger guys got a nail fragment in his eye today.  I’ll find out how that worked out tomorrow, they left headed for the doctor.


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## Just for fun (Feb 8, 2022)

Good news about the progress on the shop!

Bad news about the guy getting a nail fragment in his eye.


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## rabler (Feb 9, 2022)

The younger fellow that had a nail fragment in his eye is fine.  He was back to work with the crew today.


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## rabler (Feb 10, 2022)

They are now at the waiting to pour concrete phase.  Ground needs to dry out a bit inside, which is why the wainscot lower siding is missing.  Tentatively pouring next Wednesday. 



Also on a mostly unrelated front, my Starlink dish shipped today.  Interesting that they lost something like 40 just launched satellites recently due to a solar storm.


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## woodchucker (Feb 10, 2022)

rabler said:


> They are now at the waiting to pour concrete phase.  Ground needs to dry out a bit inside, which is why the wainscot lower siding is missing.  Tentatively pouring next Wednesday.
> 
> View attachment 395789
> 
> Also on a mostly unrelated front, my Starlink dish shipped today.  Interesting that they lost something like 40 just launched satellites recently due to a solar storm.


looking good, 40 of 49 were destroyed, and are burning up on re-entry. Apparently the solar wind was so strong it caused major drag that could not be overcome.    I was not able to find out how much that cost them.


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## rabler (Feb 10, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> looking good, 40 of 49 were destroyed, and are burning up on re-entry. Apparently the solar wind was so strong it caused major drag that could not be overcome.    I was not able to find out how much that cost them.


Hmm, what I saw was that solar activity causes the earth's atmosphere to expand, not directly solar wind.  These were ones destine for a lower orbit than some of the others.  I wonder if they'll go back to the drawing board on those orbits.


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## WobblyHand (Feb 10, 2022)

rabler said:


> Hmm, what I saw was that solar activity causes the earth's atmosphere to expand, not directly solar wind.  These were ones destine for a lower orbit than some of the others.  I wonder if they'll go back to the drawing board on those orbits.


Hope the existing constellation is able to keep up with the bandwidth demand.  Losing 82% of the fleet is pretty substantial.  Might be a little while before they put up some more satellites.  Do you know how many satellites are supposed to be in view at a time?

Astronomers are probably rejoicing at this turn of events.  The Starlink satellites have been streaking though many observations.

Your shop is looking great!


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## woodchucker (Feb 10, 2022)

rabler said:


> Hmm, what I saw was that solar activity causes the earth's atmosphere to expand, not directly solar wind.  These were ones destine for a lower orbit than some of the others.  I wonder if they'll go back to the drawing board on those orbits.


yes you are right. I remembered it wrong. read about it yesterday and already the details are gone (poof).


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## rabler (Feb 10, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Hope the existing constellation is able to keep up with the bandwidth demand.  Losing 82% of the fleet is pretty substantial.  Might be a little while before they put up some more satellites.  Do you know how many satellites are supposed to be in view at a time?
> 
> Astronomers are probably rejoicing at this turn of events.  The Starlink satellites have been streaking though many observations.
> 
> Your shop is looking great!


It was 40 of 49 from one launch earlier in February. There are 1504 active starlink satellites in orbit at this time,  so it's not 82% of the total fleet.


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## WobblyHand (Feb 10, 2022)

rabler said:


> It was 40 of 49 from one launch earlier in February.  I believe there are something like 1600 actual starlink satellites in orbit at this time,  so it's not 82% of the total fleet.


Well, then not a calamity for you, and only a blip for Mr. Musk.  Hope you get your Starlink set up soon.  Know you have been starved for bandwidth in your location.  Looking forward to you posting videos!


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## ahazi (Feb 10, 2022)

rabler said:


> Ground needs to dry out a bit inside, which is why the wainscot lower siding is missing.  Tentatively pouring next Wednesday.


Are you placing a vapor barrier between the soil and the concrete?
See some very good info by the guru of building science here: 
https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-003-concrete-floor-problems

The traditional (old) way of pouring concrete on sand is all wrong and flowed. I used 15 mil sheet under several concrete slabs that I did in the last few years and the difference is day and night on how well the concrete cures, lack of cracks and absolutely no moisture penetration.

Here is another good info on the topic:
https://www.probuilder.com/quality-matters-under-slab-vapor-barriers-done-right

I used something like this (yellow...)
https://www.amazon.com/Farm-Plastic-Supply-Polyolefin-Sheeting/dp/B09GL8PDTS

Good luck!
Ariel


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## rabler (Feb 10, 2022)

ahazi said:


> Are you placing a vapor barrier between the soil and the concrete?


I already made sure the contractor is installing a vapor barrier.


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## rabler (Feb 10, 2022)

Kind of a fun side-note.  They had a couple of 16" round "Graber Post Buildings" signs sitting out that they were going to attach to the building.  I went to the lead builder (Amish) onsite and said "Graber is getting mighty proud of their buildings to put signs on them.".   He immediately got a very serious look, "oh, I tried to tell them not to do that.  We won't put it up if you don't want it".    I said "Thank you".  The signs disappeared shortly thereafter.

Later over lunch the crew was joking that I could charge them an advertising "lease" fee for the signs.


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## rabler (Feb 10, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> yes you are right. I remembered it wrong. read about it yesterday and already the details are gone (poof).


I only remembered because I was quite curious about the electromagnetic interaction and being associated with the northern lights and direct electromagnetic damage to some equipment, including an incident in the late 1960's where it knocked out several of the cold war's radar sites, apparently causing the U.S. to order the launch of additional nuclear strike bombers before it was understood to not be a preamble to a Soviet strike.


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## rabler (Feb 14, 2022)

The crew is suppose to pour concrete this week, probably Wednesday.  I needed to get several things ready.  Three in-slab outlet boxes, conduit for the main power, and for the fiber optic feed and the air line between the shops.






The in floor boxes are set using schedule 40 water pipe instead of electrical conduit.  After 2 months of checking supply at Menards, Lowe's, and Home Depot, I was unable to come up with enough electrical grade conduit.  I will replace the above slab stubs with electrical conduit to get the light-resistant characteristics, so those stubs are just to keep concrete out of the lower section as they pour.  The joint is slightly above the slab top but concrete work can be sloppy.

Boy this space looks big.  I'm sure when I put in the 'office', and divider wall to separate the grinding and welding from the machining, then move all the tools in, it'll get a lot smaller.




Because of trees and other obstructions, this building is going to be my connection hub to the new Starlink service that will (hopefully) replace the abysmal HughesNet satellite service.  The Starlink dish shipped last week, and showed up today.  The Starlink dish rotates to track satellites, so it needs a good field of view.  Being fond of trees and privacy, the only viable approach is to either mount it on the shop roof, or on a pole.  I opted to make a pole with a pivot so that I could avoid the ladder, scrambling around on the roof.  Set the base post 4' down this morning in 240 lbs of concrete.  








That's about a 20' tall pole made of 2x2x.125 square tube, with some smaller square tube tacked on for the lower 10'.  I'll add eyelets at about 15' up for guy wires.  The base is made so that a pivot pin allows the mast to fold, with 4 holes for 5/8" bolts to hold it in position when up.


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## woodchucker (Feb 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> The crew is suppose to pour concrete this week, probably Wednesday.  I needed to get several things ready.  Three in-slab outlet boxes, conduit for the main power, and for the fiber optic feed and the air line between the shops.
> 
> View attachment 396395
> View attachment 396398
> ...


Looking good, that's quite a bit of work accomplished.


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## rabler (Feb 14, 2022)

Concrete will get done this week.  Debating whether I need to buy/make a 10ga "extension cord" to power things (lights, router/switch) until the power co gets the new service active.


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## ahazi (Feb 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> Concrete will get done this week.  Debating whether I need to buy/make a 10ga "extension cord" to power things (lights, router/switch) until the power co gets the new service active.


Impressive fast progress.

Here in Los Angeles nothing moves without full constructions permits upfront and city inspections at each stage of the construction. No concrete pouring before approved vapor barrier material and rebars are in place. No concrete pouring for structural concrete (4,000 PSI) without deputy inspector on site during the pour. Not even sure that pole barn style buildings are allowed at this earthquake prone region.

I am attaching few pictures of pouring and finishing concrete for my shop floor slab (December 2015). See the extensive rebar and electrical conduit on top of the vapor barrier.












My shop construction project was a long and big effort but definitely worth it as I enjoy it daily.

Ariel


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## rabler (Feb 14, 2022)

ahazi said:


> See the extensive rebar and electrical conduit on top of the vapor barrier.


Are you actually doing electrical distribution via the in-slab conduit?   My in slab conduit is only for a few outlets in the floor, otherwise power will go via walls/attic.


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## ahazi (Feb 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> Are you actually doing electrical distribution via the in-slab conduit?   My in slab conduit is only for a few outlets in the floor, otherwise power will go via walls/attic.


Absolutely using it. The plastic electrical conduit terminate above the slab next to the walls, I used a metal riser conduit on the wall into a die cast electrical box that is attached to the concrete wall and has electric receptacles. Most (70%) of my walls are structural concrete so it was easier to bring two large conduits from the shop panel into the middle of the shop (the square plastic electrical box covered with plywood in the pictures) in a hub and spoke configuration and send it to the walls from the center. I am only feeding one machine from the center box.

I had no idea where I wanted to put machines and how much power each machine needed. In retrospect this is a very good solution as it allowed me to easily pull wires for 220v/50A outlet for welding and plasma cutting. 

Some of the wiring in the walls and ceiling was done with Romax, I wish I used conduit to get more flexibility after the fact.


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## rabler (Feb 16, 2022)

Well, concrete won’t happen this week.  Water main break near the plant stopped concrete production


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## rabler (Feb 16, 2022)

Making lemonade: I’m going to start wiring the shop so that we have a few lights and outlets.  The power co has not hooked up the new service yet, but I can run a temp 20A 220V into it on some 10/3 UF.  That way I can go ahead with getting the starlink dish installed since it will be homed there. I’m waiting on a couple managed vlan switches with SFP ports that I will use to light up the single mode fiber between there and the house, and install security cameras.


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## rabler (Feb 21, 2022)

Still no concrete, but a good start on the wiring, main panel and subpanel are in, wired together.  Three way switches for lights are in, light boxes up.  Couple of outlets set up.  Still no power to the building as the power co hasn't trenched in the 400A line.  But after running up and down a ladder for a couple days, I'm glad I went with 12' ceilings and not the 16'.


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## rabler (Feb 22, 2022)

Muddy Mess​We got about 1.4" of rain last night.  Quite a downpour.  The soil here is mostly clay, so it truly makes a mess when loose soil gets saturated.  The crew stopped by today to do some final prep before concrete.  Current plan is to pour Monday morning, and finish up everything else Tuesday.  They got the vapor barrier and wire mesh down.  They use a pretty fine gauge concrete mesh.  I had two "stallion panels", which is 5' x 16'  6 gauge galvanized mesh on a 2" x 4" grid.  Similar to hog panel fencing.   This was left over from building stallion runs a few years ago, and I figured it would make a little extra reinforcement for the doorway, so I had them throw those in on top of their normal mesh for the width of the main door going in 16'.




I've roughed in the main panel, front 100A sub-panel connected via Al SER 2-2-2-4, and some overhead light fixtures.  Once the concrete is poured I'll have lights and a couple of outlets within a few days.




We did run to Menards and picked up some concrete "split face" block to make a bit of a mud retaining wall.  It will have to be rebuilt once things dry out this summer, but for now it will keep the grade so that there is drainage around the front uphill driveway corner of the building.  This was 20 block to start with, I figure we'll get another 30 or so to extend it.  Eventually I'll pour concrete steps coming down to the entry door (again, when things are dry).  I was pleased the perimeter drains were pouring out quite a bit of water this morning.


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

Hey, it's not a pour, but it is progress. Sucks about the rain. I hate walking in clay when it's that wet, it pulls your boots off... And if it doesn't do that, you are walking on inches of mud stuck under your boots...


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## rabler (Feb 22, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Hey, it's not a pour, but it is progress. Sucks about the rain. I hate walking in clay when it's that wet, it pulls your boots off... And if it doesn't do that, you are walking on inches of mud stuck under your boots...


Yeah, stacking those blocks was a challenge, had to pretty much plant your feet, stack a few block, then reach down and pull with hands and foot to get the boot out of the mire.  Fortunately my wife passed the block down to me from the back of the pickup truck.

Progress it is!  I'll hold off on doing any more wiring work at this point as I don't want to punch a bunch of holes in the vapor barrier with ladder feet.


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## extropic (Feb 22, 2022)

Looking good !


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## FOMOGO (Feb 22, 2022)

Permit? what's a permit?  



ahazi said:


> Here in Los Angeles nothing moves without full constructions permits upfront and city inspections at each stage of the construction. No concrete pouring before approved vapor barrier material and rebars are in place. No concrete pouring for structural concrete (4,000 PSI) without deputy inspector on site during the pour. Not even sure that pole barn style buildings are allowed at this earthquake prone region.


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## rabler (Feb 22, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> Permit? what's a permit?


Most of the county is farmers.  Farmers are an independent group, and generally not enthusiastic on more government oversite.  

There is a 2 mile radius beyond the city limits, if you're in the city limits or in that 2 mile radius, then you pay $50 for a permit, and provide a diagram to show you meet the road and property line setbacks or request an exemption.  Technically our house is considered within the 2 mile radius, but the new shop is not.    I did get a permit for another building (horse barns and facility) and I asked about inspections.  What's that?  You've paid your money, go build.  

Outside of that city setback enforcement area, the only permit is a state mandated inspection process for septic tanks.  You pay an independent soil engineer to do a test on soil porosity, and then the county public health department issues a permit based on soil porosity, requiring so many feet of septic field.  We put in an additional septic tank over by the barns as we put in a small bathroom over there.

Everything else is handled by the county tax assessor.  She happens to have horses too.  Last time she came around I pointed out that her truck ought to have some sort of county marking less someone shoot at her.   She did say that has happened a few years back ...   Her personal vehicle but the county may provide some sort of mileage reimbursement.  I tried to help point out what we'd done and she seemed appreciative of a helpful property owner.  Don't think it made any difference on our assessment, but in a small town it's just easier to stay on good terms with all the county workers.


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## jwmay (Feb 23, 2022)

So is the order of operations here, standard practice? It's been quite a few years since I did any construction, but we never stood up a building and then poured concrete inside of it. Is this a pole building thing?
Edit: It was for the military in combat zones. I'm always curious about how it's done here.


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## rabler (Feb 23, 2022)

Yes, a pole barn thing.  Set the poles before pouring concrete.  How much else gets done before concrete is up for grabs, although a roof overhead reduces rain issues for pouring.  They will close in the rest of the building immediately after pouring to manage freezing issues.


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## rabler (Feb 24, 2022)

rabler said:


> Yes, a pole barn thing.  Set the poles before pouring concrete.  How much else gets done before concrete is up for grabs, although a roof overhead reduces rain issues for pouring.  They will close in the rest of the building immediately after pouring to manage freezing issues.


The 6" x 6" laminated posts that form the perimeter frame of the building are spaced on a 8' interval, and buried 4' deep.  The bottom of the hole has a precast concrete "cookie" disk about 16" in diameter and 3" thick.    I think the origin of this style building comes from farmers, accustom to setting fence posts, and often using recycled telephone poles.   Very common for things such as hay storage.   Many such farm buildings did not use a concrete floor.  We have another pole building over by the horse barns, 32' x 64', of which 32' x 40' is gravel floor and open sided.  We store the large (32" x 32" x 96") square hay bales, the bigger pickup, the excavator, motorcycle, diesel fuel tank and tractor implements under there.


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## NCjeeper (Feb 24, 2022)

jwmay said:


> So is the order of operations here, standard practice? It's been quite a few years since I did any construction, but we never stood up a building and then poured concrete inside of it. Is this a pole building thing?


That is the way they did my red iron building. If they poured the pad first, they would have had to wait 30 days before they could have driven the telehandler on it. So, pouring the pad last means no down time providing mother nature cooperates.


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## rabler (Feb 24, 2022)

NCjeeper said:


> That is the way they did my red iron building. If they poured the pad first, they would have had to wait 30 days before they could have driven the telehandler on it. So, pouring the pad last means no down time providing mother nature cooperates.


How thick of a pad did you go with, Tom?  Did they pour some sort of footings for the red iron structure before putting up the building?

I'll be waiting 30 days after pour to move anything into the shop.  4-5 ton machinery means renting a forklift that weighs around 8 tons, or a telehandler that weighs 15 tons, thats a lot of weight to put on the concrete.  That will probably be closer to 60 days before I want to risk that, especially as concrete sets up slower in cold weather.

But it will probably take me at least that long to finish out the wiring, put up interior walls, finish out the ceiling, build out the office, and blow insulation into everything.  At around three weeks I figure I can use rent a scissors lift to work on the ceiling.  I have a week of being out of town for medical follow-ups so that will help the time pass.  Mentally things are getting moved in already


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## NCjeeper (Feb 24, 2022)

rabler said:


> How thick of a pad did you go with, Tom?  Did they pour some sort of footings for the red iron structure before putting up the building?


I went with 6" thick. I knew I would have heavy machines in there. Plus my forklift weighs 10500 pounds. I also went deeper where I want the boring mill to sit. We poured 10" there. They did pour some large footings prior. Our frost line is 18".


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## rabler (Feb 28, 2022)

Concrete went in this morning.  Crew should be done tomorrow.  45 yards, so 6.8" mean depth.  Temperatures look pretty good for the whole coming week, no freezing expected through the weekend.


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## rabler (Mar 1, 2022)

Contractors are done.​I was planning on putting up the white metal ceiling myself but they offered to put it up for a reasonable 'cash' price.  Ceiling hole left open for wiring and insulation access.


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## extropic (Mar 1, 2022)

Looking great Randal.

The two tone exterior looks good.

Wondering. Is there a technical reason (multiple?) that the skirt is separate from the siding? Leaving it open must facilitate the slab work but are there other advantages?

PS: Please use an extension ladder to access the attic. Seeing that step ladder there gives me the hee-bee-jee-bees.


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## woodchucker (Mar 1, 2022)

reasonable price and less than a days work. Can't beat that. Ceiling work is a pain.  more so if you don't have a panel lift.  My head hurts after doing a bunch of sheet rock, Especially when the T bar moves the wrong way... 

You going to keep wetting the concrete for a stronger floor? Or put plastic over it?


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## NCjeeper (Mar 1, 2022)

extropic said:


> Leaving it open must facilitate the slab work but are there other advantages?


Also keeps the splattering concrete from hitting the walls if they are not there.


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## rabler (Mar 1, 2022)

extropic said:


> Looking great Randal.
> 
> The two tone exterior looks good.
> 
> ...


Thanks!

Lower siding (wainscot) left off to make it easier to finish the edge of the slab, no other reason.  The step ladder is mine, but was being used by the construction crew, not me.  I prefer something that extends at least 3 ft above the level I have to step off if I'm doing roof/attic work.  That step ladder, while heavy to move around,  will be handy for installing the lights.


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## rabler (Mar 1, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> reasonable price and less than a days work. Can't beat that. Ceiling work is a pain.  more so if you don't have a panel lift.  My head hurts after doing a bunch of sheet rock, Especially when the T bar moves the wrong way...
> 
> You going to keep wetting the concrete for a stronger floor? Or put plastic ove


Ceiling work @ 8ft is bad enough.  They had three guys up on a wheeled scaffold, and two guys handing up 20' panels, moved fast.  Ceiling up, concrete slab cut, and garage door hung before lunch.

I'll have to do a bit of scrambling around the attic to finish wiring all the light fixtures, if I realized it was going to work out this way I would have made more of an effort to get the other ceiling boxes installed. I have four more to put in.

I'm keeping the concrete wet.  I covered the exterior lip of the concrete beyond the garage door after soaking it today, the rest will get wet down morning and evening.   In summer I'd keep it saturated for about 72 hours, I'll probably go a full week given the slower cure in lower temps.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 1, 2022)

Looks really nice. So many shops leave the rafters exposed, mostly do to cost but I really like the enclosed ceiling. Looks so much better. 

Will enjoy watching the progress.


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## rabler (Mar 1, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Looks really nice. So many shops leave the rafters exposed, mostly do to cost but I really like the enclosed ceiling. Looks so much better.
> 
> Will enjoy watching the progress.


Lots of various considerations for the ceiling, the bright white metal makes the space feel better lit.  A ceiling provides an additional insulation layer, I plan on blowing insulation above the metal.  The attic if open is a lot of air space to heat/cool too.  Drywall ceiling provides better noise damping acoustics but the labor is prohibitive, whether hired or DIY.


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## FOMOGO (Mar 1, 2022)

Looking great. Getting the slab in is always a big step. Mike


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 1, 2022)

rabler said:


> Lots of various considerations for the ceiling, the bright white metal makes the space feel better lit.  A ceiling provides an additional insulation layer, I plan on blowing insulation above the metal.  The attic if open is a lot of air space to heat/cool too.  Drywall ceiling provides better noise damping acoustics but the labor is prohibitive, whether hired or DIY.


I agree with you on your logic.
I have a problem with too much heat, just takes it out of me. If it were me, I would install some attic fans to move that heat out between the ceiling and roof. I have a couple of friends that have installed those Big Ass Fans in their shop. Expensive but they move some air and are reversible for summer or winter.  One has his in his hanger in Idaho and swears that the small heater with the fan keeps the temps very comfortable and during the heat of the summer very cool on its' own.
Another advantage to wall (attic) fans is if you do a lot of burning or welding, helps to move that smoke out. I have two stints in my heart so wife has flat out told me that I will mover that smoke out of the shop when we get ours or no burning or welding. Nice to have someone take care of you.
But I bet that ceiling will be a huge benefit in lighting.


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## rabler (Mar 1, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Another advantage to wall (attic) fans is if you do a lot of burning or welding, helps to move that smoke out.


I’m keeping my eye out for a used furnace blower that I can convert to a welding exhaust hood to try to get fumes out without venting the whole shop, although adding that option makes sense.


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## rabler (Mar 2, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> I agree with you on your logic.
> I have a problem with too much heat, just takes it out of me. If it were me, I would install some attic fans to move that heat out between the ceiling and roof. I have a couple of friends that have installed those Big Ass Fans in their shop. Expensive but they move some air and are reversible for summer or winter.  One has his in his hanger in Idaho and swears that the small heater with the fan keeps the temps very comfortable and during the heat of the summer very cool on its' own.
> Another advantage to wall (attic) fans is if you do a lot of burning or welding, helps to move that smoke out. I have two stints in my heart so wife has flat out told me that I will mover that smoke out of the shop when we get ours or no burning or welding. Nice to have someone take care of you.
> But I bet that ceiling will be a huge benefit in lighting.



Have to agree with the benefits of having someone take care of you.  Those are the gems in our lives.

I’m planning on eventually putting in bridge cranes so that limits ceiling fan options.  I will probably put a ceiling fan in the office, I’m enclosing a 12x12’ area that will house my 3x4 surface plate, a computer desk,  electronics bench, and maybe a small fridge.

I intend to insulate the crap out of this building, 6” walls full and at least R-19 initially for the ceiling.  The roof already has 1” styrofoam under the metal, and 1/2” under the exterior walls as a start. Shop needs to be comfortable to work in and economical to keep that way.   I will likely put a dual head mini-split in the shop, 24000 btu for the main shop and 9000 for the office. The mini splits can be set to a dehumidify mode, which is really helpful with reducing rust.  I find that I can tolerate about 80 degrees in the summer and about 55 in the winter (assuming shop safe clothing).  Additionally the shop is getting a wood stove, as requested by my wife, she loves a fire.  I buried a gas line out there and will probably put in a 50,000 btu gas heater next winter too.

It will be a while before all of those climate accessories get installed.  Used up the last of some money rolled over from selling previous house in Atlanta to put in the sub grade and contract the construction.  Dipped into the cash budget for this month to pay for the ceiling.  

If I can get all of the wiring work done by end of March that will be good progress.  Then April to move equipment in and close up the walls.


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## woodchucker (Mar 2, 2022)

if you can afford it, rockwool is a fantastic insulator. None of the problems like with foam. it's  recycled metal slag.  It's awesome at insulating against fire, it's so think that air doesn't blow through it (adding to more insulating).. rats and mice don't like it...  My bathroom is so much warmer using it.  And it doesn't slump down like fiberglass if it breaks loose.  Oh, and water just beads off of it... so if you spring a leak, it does not get all heavy and moldy.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 2, 2022)

rabler said:


> Have to agree with the benefits of having someone take care of you.  Those are the gems in our lives.
> 
> I’m planning on eventually putting in bridge cranes so that limits ceiling fan options.  I will probably put a ceiling fan in the office, I’m enclosing a 12x12’ area that will house my 3x4 surface plate, a computer desk,  electronics bench, and maybe a small fridge.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good plan. For me, I start to melt about 75 and can wear a T shirt down to about 42, but my comfort range is 50-70.

One big advantage of insulating the ceiling in a metal building is to reduce the noise along with insulation. As for the BAF, they are really pretty interesting industrial design. But agree it is something that is better set for higher ceilings or open ceilings.

Your shop is going to be amazing. Although there is one room missing and that is the reloading room. But that can be overlooked for now. JK


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## rabler (Mar 2, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> if you can afford it, rockwool is a fantastic insulator. None of the problems like with foam. it's  recycled metal slag.  It's awesome at insulating against fire, it's so think that air doesn't blow through it (adding to more insulating).. rats and mice don't like it...  My bathroom is so much warmer using it.  And it doesn't slump down like fiberglass if it breaks loose.  Oh, and water just beads off of it... so if you spring a leak, it does not get all heavy and moldy.


I'm probably going to blow in insulation rather than bats, just so much quicker and easier.  Rockwool in general seems to be one of the things not readily available right now, supply chain/shortages?  I would like to use blown-in rockwool for the lower foot or so of the walls for fire and mold control reasons.  Then probably top that with cellulose in the rest of the walls and the attic for cost.  I'll have spent out the last of the cash from selling the old house when I pay the building contractor, so I'm on a pay as you go budget from this point out.

 I'm going to cover the lower three feet of walls in 26 ga metal too.  Probably 3' metal, 4' melamine slatwall, and 4' drywall.  I was surprised to find 3/4" slatwall cheaper than plywood.


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## rabler (Mar 2, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Sounds like a good plan. For me, I start to melt about 75 and can wear a T shirt down to about 42, but my comfort range is 50-70.
> 
> One big advantage of insulating the ceiling in a metal building is to reduce the noise along with insulation. As for the BAF, they are really pretty interesting industrial design. But agree it is something that is better set for higher ceilings or open ceilings.
> 
> Your shop is going to be amazing. Although there is one room missing and that is the reloading room. But that can be overlooked for now. JK



Guns are staying up in the woodshop.  I've done the 80% lowers and some misc gun projects, but never done my own reloading.  Unless casting your own lead bullets for replica percussion cap muzzle loaders counts.  Next on my gun todo list is to Form 1 build a silencer for my AR, from the very practical aspect of shooting coyotes after dusk and not annoying the neighbors.  Haven't tried working with titanium yet ...


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 2, 2022)

rabler said:


> Guns are staying up in the woodshop.  I've done the 80% lowers and some misc gun projects, but never done my own reloading.  Unless casting your own lead bullets for replica percussion cap muzzle loaders counts.  Next on my gun todo list is to Form 1 build a silencer for my AR, from the very practical aspect of shooting coyotes after dusk and not annoying the neighbors.  Haven't tried working with titanium yet ...


Not into AR's, feel very uncomfortable to shoot. I got back into reloading when I started shooting a lot of pistol (1911). But it has expanded dramatically when I started shooting F-Class competition. When you get out to 500 yards and the goal is to place all 20 rounds from a relay into a 2.5" circle (total of 3 relays for a match), everything is taken to the extreme. Many of the people I shoot with, some are National Champions, way above my capabilities, shoot out to 1000 yards. Which only serves to raise the bar significantly. Having a dedicated reloading room to control every aspect is important and makes the process much easier. For example, lab grade scales don't like any kind of movement around them. Mine sits on a 3" thick slab of granite, no fluorescent lights (interference) and no air movement.
I actually enjoy the reloading as much as I do the shooting and the competition. To me the precision of the reloading is very relaxing. Most of my friends think that I am crazy, but this is not a secret.
It would also be great to have an area in the reloading room for cleaning, maintenance and rifle builds.
We will see, I could easily give up machine space for this, with the exception of those machines that support my hobby.
So when I see yours and others shops, this is where my head goes. Eventually I will have some type of shop and hopefully a better lathe to support it.
Thanks for putting up with my rambling.
Patrick


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## rabler (Mar 2, 2022)

My temperature tolerance has shifted quite a bit.  While I've moved from Georgia to Indiana in the last 4 years, I've become more tolerant of heat and less tolerant of cold.  I suspect it has a lot to do with the ongoing post-cancer therapy.


Papa Charlie said:


> But it has expanded dramatically when I started shooting F-Class competition.


I'm not great at accuracy of any sort, pistol or rifle.  When I was a kid I did a lot of squirrel hunting with a .22, was pretty good at head shots with open sights (we ate a fair amount of squirrel).  Now I'm happy to hit the target at 100 yards with a scope on a rifle.  Favorite to shoot is a bolt action Mauser .270.   My machining is probably much the same, I'm happy if I can get in the right ballpark, hitting tenths is not in my forte.  I respect those with the patience and skill to achieve that level of accuracy, whether shooting, machining, or any other endeavors.


Papa Charlie said:


> Thanks for putting up with my rambling.


I'm happy to ramble on about these sort of topics myself, so I appreciate the commentary.


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## rabler (Mar 6, 2022)

Copper wiring prices have gone crazy.   I’m a bit fanatical about outlets everywhere.  There will be 24’ of workbench along the pictured wall, so I’m putting in quad outlets every 4’, along with a few 240V outlets.  This does use up a lot of wire.
I did find I had a lot of 10/3 UF stored in various places, bought before copper prices went crazy.  While UF is annoying to strip, I’m using it up in ways I normally wouldn’t to save some money on buying more rolls of wire.  I also had a bunch of 14ga wire, and while 15A outlets are not suitable for shop use in my mind, I’m running using it up on lighting circuits.  Three 3-way switches at opposite ends of the building takes a lot of wire.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 6, 2022)

The days of just running the same size wire for all 120 or 240 circuits is gone. Today, we need to size the wire for the load. 
If you get to a point, you can always run some conduit and boxes to future locations and pull the wire later after you get other shop construction completed.


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## rabler (Mar 6, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> The days of just running the same size wire for all 120 or 240 circuits is gone. Today, we need to size the wire for the load.
> If you get to a point, you can always run some conduit and boxes to future locations and pull the wire later after you get other shop construction completed.


I'm doing all of the three phase that way as TBD conduit.    I'm designing capacity to upgrade my RPC from 20 to a two stage 30HP, mostly for load starting capacity, not for total load, allowing me to run a small-medium VMC if I want to go that route.

All of the bigger machines will go in one (larger) area so I'm only covering 1/3 of the shop with easy three phase access.  I plan on having built in benches and other things in some areas that would make conduit annoying to work around. Another quarter of the shop has the 50A welding circuit.  No matter what it is hard to predict exactly how everything will get laid out, but you have to start somewhere.

My general goal is to have dual 20A 120V and dual 240V 20A circuits readily available thorughout the shop, so that anything running on those can be arranged and plugged in pretty much anywhere, perhaps with a little intelligent load balancing across those two circuits.   Realistically, it is a one man shop.  Dedicated circuits for interior lighting, exterior lighting and outlets, office (computers), mini-split, gas furnace, air compressor.  One main panel feeding two sub panels (for the single phase) so don't have to chase back too far for anything.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 6, 2022)

Sounds like you have this well thought out. Your shop sounds like it is going to be set up the right way.


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## rabler (Mar 8, 2022)

Scaled layout plan so far.  Doors not shown, but the center of the right side is the 10x10 garage door, I'm trying to keep an isle from there open to run the loader/forks in out for moving things.  PDF version attached (may be SLIGHTLY more legible).  Machines are oriented so text is upright when facing machine in operator position



Five main areas
1) Top Left:  Large machines,  3 phase distribution
2) Bottom Left:  General machining work area
3) Top Right:  Stock, sawing and surface grinding
4) bottom right: Welding/fab area
5) center bottom: office space, surface plate, computers, metrology


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## rabler (Mar 9, 2022)

This space looks so big vacant, but when you start filling in all this stuff it starts getting cramped fast.
Slightly more detailed layout.
Yellow is windows.
Red is electrical features
Green is bridge crane uprights.


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## woodchucker (Mar 9, 2022)

rabler said:


> This space looks so big vacant, but when you start filling in all this stuff it starts getting cramped fast.
> Slightly more detailed layout.
> Yellow is windows.
> Red is electrical features
> Green is bridge crane uprights.


amazing isn't it.


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## extropic (Mar 9, 2022)

@rabler 

On the layout, how do you visualize using the isolated corners created by the placement of the 612, the K&T and the VMC?

I understand that the layout is a work in progress, but it looks like those areas are substantial square footage with very limited access.

I don't remember if this has been discussed before, regarding the bridge uprights, were any special provisions incorporated in the slab configuration for additional support at those locations?


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## rabler (Mar 9, 2022)

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> On the layout, how do you visualize using the isolated corners created by the placement of the 612, the K&T and the VMC?
> 
> ...


Corners: storage for lathe and mill tooling, toolcarts, etc.  Misc knooks and crannies will fill up.  Nature abhors a vacuum.

Crane:  no additional provisions.  I’m only planning on 1 or 1.5 ton max load.  Will bolt and grout a 6” x 12” plate for each leg base.  The big machines will create more loading issues.  Only real concern is impact loads if the bridge hits the end of run


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## rabler (Mar 9, 2022)

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> On the layout, how do you visualize using the isolated corners created by the placement of the 612, the K&T and the VMC?


I should add having room off the end of the 612 in both directions is intentional.  Turning either through the headstock or via a steady rest can lead to something extending past the lathe footprint.  I also found out the hard way that taking the apron apart requires a fair amount of room off the tailstock end of the lathe to remove the leadscrew and other various apron rods.  I have had to move that lathe around quite a bit, and moving 5 ton machines is not trivial, so I'm hoping to avoid that


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## rabler (Mar 9, 2022)

Ok, this captures pretty much everything I have in mind.
I added the in-floor outlets (red circles).  That effected placement of a few things.
Also added the overhead crane tracks.
The track closer to the entry doors (right side) is going to a single beam trolley rather than a full bridge crane.  Budget and constraints on post placement.  That one will probably be limited to 500 lbs due to the long span, engineering on that TBD.  Alternately (and probably a more likely solution) I may  just span the stock rack and horizontal bandsaw with a rolling gantry crane.  Big concern is picking up heavy stock and setting it on the horizontal bandsaw.  3" diameter 10' piece of cold-rolled is awkward and backbreaking.


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## rabler (Mar 17, 2022)

General lighting plan is to use fourteen 8’LED tubes which can be ganged end to end up to three.  They are rated for 8000 lumens each, color selectable for 3000, 4000, or 5000k.   80 watts per fixture, or 1120 watts total, on a dedicated 15 amp circuit.  Or 50 lumens per sq ft. I’m doing three rows parallel to the long axis of the building.  The center row is on one switch group.  The outside rows on the front side are on another switch group, and the outside rows for the back are on a third group.  Each group is switchable via 3/4 way switches from the front door, back door or office door.  

I’m also planning on a lighting circuit for the back bench (lower left) on the 7’ shelf, to eliminate shadows and provide brighter light there.
I haven’t worked out the exact setup for office lighting but probably three 4’ LED tubes at about 12000 lumens total.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 17, 2022)

That should be sufficient lighting.

I have been reading a lot about LED lighting effecting electronics. One story was actually from a friend of mine who has his own hanger and plane. He said his emergency locator (not sure of the actual name) in the plane kept going off and alert Search and Rescue. Got to the point that he knew the dispatchers by first name. His club had a get together and a tech was there from I think another locator mfg. Got to discussing the issue, since the locators cannot be switched off seem the LED lights in his home hanger were activating it. They determined that they had to add more shielding and move the antenna farther from the unit. 

Not sure if it would have any affect on your electronic equipment or systems, I only mention this as you have indicated that you do electronics.

For me and my competition shooting, my Sartorius lab grade scale is affected by just about everything including slight breeze (or breathing), vibration, looking at it wrong, cell phones and fluorescent lighting. The phone and lighting can cause it to wonder. When you are measuring powder down to the hundredths of a grain (a single kernel is about 0.020+- Grains), having it wonder as much as 0.5 grains is a big deal. Also, since I am loading very close to the max, don't want to over charge.

Seems like there is a cause and affect for everything.

Rambling again.


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## rabler (Mar 17, 2022)

Always appreciate warnings on possible issues.  But, that is a really ****ty ELT (emergency locator transmitter).  ELT’s are activated by high-Gs (like a rough landing).  This is a bit suspicious, I would want to see a replication of the triggering to believe it.  ELTs are usually mounted high in the tail but can be manually reset.  Any aircraft radio will receive 121.5MHz that they broadcast, so easy to test. There is no receive electronics, it is a transmitter only.  LEDs themselves are DC, the problem source would be the high frequency from a poorly designed switching power supply.  If you buy bottom dollar fixture (not UL approved), I could believe you could have an issue, but … fishy.

(from someone who is a former college flying club maintenance coordinator, former plane owner, and Former flight instructor)

Flourescent lighting involves high voltages for starting, and a discharge Arc through the tube, definitely a source of RF interference.  Problems from them are not surprising.

I have an oscilloscope, so easy to hang a wire off it and check for RFI.


Papa Charlie said:


> I have been reading a lot about LED lighting effecting electronics. One story was actually from a friend of mine who has his own hanger and plane. He said his emergency locator (not sure of the actual name) in the plane kept going off and alert Search and Rescue. Got to the point that he knew the dispatchers by first name. His club had a get together and a tech was there from I think another locator mfg. Got to discussing the issue, since the locators cannot be switched off seem the LED lights in his home hanger were activating it. They determined that they had to add more shielding and move the antenna farther from the unit.
> 
> Not sure if it would have any affect on your electronic equipment or systems, I only mention this as you have indicated that you do electronics.
> 
> ...


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## ahazi (Mar 17, 2022)

rabler said:


> General lighting plan is to use fourteen 8’LED tubes which can be ganged end to end up to three.  They are rated for 8000 lumens each, color selectable for 3000, 4000, or 5000k.   80 watts per fixture, or 1120 watts total, on a dedicated 15 amp circuit.  Or 50 lumens per sq ft. I’m doing three rows parallel to the long axis of the building.  The center row is on one switch group.  The outside rows on the front side are on another switch group, and the outside rows for the back are on a third group.  Each group is switchable via 3/4 way switches from the front door, back door or office door.
> 
> I’m also planning on a lighting circuit for the back bench (lower left) on the 7’ shelf, to eliminate shadows and provide brighter light there.
> I haven’t worked out the exact setup for office lighting but probably three 4’ LED tubes at about 12000 lumens total.


I had a similar lighting need few years ago. My original plan was to use use 5000K, 48" LED tubes in 4 way fixtures. I ended up using these type of fixtures:












						13,750 Lumens - LED Linear High Bay - 110 Watts - 35/40/50K - 120-277V
					

The GLT LHB-110W-U-50K-D10 2ft LED high bay lights offers an energy efficient replacement for fluorescent fixtures. This LED high bay emits 13,750 lumens while using up to only 110 watts of power to replace 6-lamp F32T8 or 4-lamp F54T5HO lights. It now features selectable color temperatures of...




					www.beeslighting.com
				







__





						Shop LED Lighting I Indoor & Outdoor Lighting I LED Lighting Wholesale Inc.
					





					www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com
				




I am very happy I did as they have built in dimmer with a 0-10v control. Now I can put just as much light as needed and it gives me the option for full light intensity when needed. It saves some power and probably extends the life of the fixtures by not pushing it to the max. 

I also found that you absolutely need good task light without shadows where you do detail work. These are much easier to do and there is no need for a dimmer.

Ariel


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## woodchucker (Mar 17, 2022)

My Model Plane club meets in one of the members hangers at the airport. He has all new LED lighting because he is rebuilding a Citabria. His other plane is there and no problems...  If it does happen, I think it is a rare event.

My opinion, 5000k too blue for me, it wierds out my eyes... I have had both lenses replaced with cataract surgery, so not sure if that makes it worse, my wife doesn't like the 5000k either.  4000k is nice and clear to both of us.  It's great when they are selectable.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 17, 2022)

rabler said:


> Always appreciate warnings on possible issues.  But, that is a really ****ty ELT (emergency locator transmitter).  ELT’s are activated by high-Gs (like a rough landing).  This is a bit suspicious, I would want to see a replication of the triggering to believe it.  ELTs are usually mounted high in the tail but can be manually reset.  Any aircraft radio will receive 121.5MHz that they broadcast, so easy to test. There is no receive electronics, it is a transmitter only.  LEDs themselves are DC, the problem source would be the high frequency from a poorly designed switching power supply.  If you buy bottom dollar fixture (not UL approved), I could believe you could have an issue, but … fishy.
> 
> (from someone who is a former college flying club maintenance coordinator, former plane owner, and Former flight instructor)
> 
> ...


Actually there were several others and the tech that had experienced this, which is how they knew how to address it. Now to go along with what you are saying about equipment. All the ELT's (thanks for the correct nomenclature) were from the same mfg and apparently the mfg was of no help in troubleshooting the problem.


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## rabler (Mar 17, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> My Model Plane club meets in one of the members hangers at the airport. He has all new LED lighting because he is rebuilding a Citabria. His other plane is there and no problems...  If it does happen, I think it is a rare event.
> 
> My opinion, 5000k too blue for me, it wierds out my eyes... I have had both lenses replaced with cataract surgery, so not sure if that makes it worse, my wife doesn't like the 5000k either.  4000k is nice and clear to both of us.  It's great when they are selectable.


The ones I have are 3/4/5k selectable.  I have set them to 4000 when I installed them, as I agree that 5k is harsh/blue.  Oddly they are also 4/6/8,000 lumen selectable. I can’t see buying them and then setting for reduced output in a shop/garage setting and they are not styled for interior home use. 

I’ll do something dimmable in the office.  The shop proper I can always just turn off the outer two banks which would leave about 14 lumens/sq ft.


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## rabler (Mar 17, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Actually there were several others and the tech that had experienced this, which is how they knew how to address it. Now to go along with what you are saying about equipment. All the ELT's (thanks for the correct nomenclature) were from the same mfg and apparently the mfg was of no help in troubleshooting the problem.


That would suggest they are using an electromechanical sensor that is based on a strain gauge, which requires very high gain and is typically handled with a bridge circuit.  It also means they did a really poor design of such a circuit as there is no reason it couldn’t be RF shielded.  ELTs are typically mounted in the top of the tail. Obviously the tail being close to LEDs is not helpful, but that is a location that is frequently also used for antenna mounting.  I’d be reporting that manufacturer to the FAA as an ELT that falsely triggers is no joke.   Coast guard and Civil Air Patrol get really irate.  Fortunately ATC knows to rule out on-airport aircraft as the most common cause of false alarms is rough landings.

Many of the cheap chinese 48” LED strip lights sold through Amazon are not UL listed,  so I would suspect that also is a factor.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 18, 2022)

rabler said:


> That would suggest they are using an electromechanical sensor that is based on a strain gauge, which requires very high gain and is typically handled with a bridge circuit.  It also means they did a really poor design of such a circuit as there is no reason it couldn’t be RF shielded.  ELTs are typically mounted in the top of the tail. Obviously the tail being close to LEDs is not helpful, but that is a location that is frequently also used for antenna mounting.  I’d be reporting that manufacturer to the FAA as an ELT that falsely triggers is no joke.   Coast guard and Civil Air Patrol get really irate.  Fortunately ATC knows to rule out on-airport aircraft as the most common cause of false alarms is rough landings.
> 
> Many of the cheap chinese 48” LED strip lights sold through Amazon are not UL listed,  so I would suspect that also is a factor.


Your last statement regarding the chinese stuff is what worries me with regards to using them.

I changed over all the lights on my boat to LED. Huge reduction in battery drain for a 45 footer. But some lights while they were bright when I installed them have in a couple of years dimmed. These are of course 12VDC lights, but if this is representative of the quality of chinese LED's, I would hate to install them in my shop to only have to replace them in a couple of years because they are fading out on me. 
The other issue is to ensure that the lighting we buy is actually using non chinese LED's in the manufacture. So many products are tied to these inexpensive sources, despite being USA made. It isn't the 51% of US cost in the product that bothers me, it is the other 49%.


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## rabler (Mar 18, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Your last statement regarding the chinese stuff is what worries me with regards to using them.
> 
> I changed over all the lights on my boat to LED. Huge reduction in battery drain for a 45 footer. But some lights while they were bright when I installed them have in a couple of years dimmed. These are of course 12VDC lights, but if this is representative of the quality of chinese LED's, I would hate to install them in my shop to only have to replace them in a couple of years because they are fading out on me.
> The other issue is to ensure that the lighting we buy is actually using non chinese LED's in the manufacture. So many products are tied to these inexpensive sources, despite being USA made. It isn't the 51% of US cost in the product that bothers me, it is the other 49%.


One solution is to get the T8 bulb fixtures, at least you can swap bulbs tubes.  But pricier…


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## WobblyHand (Mar 18, 2022)

This dimming seems to be inherent, especially if the LEDs are driven hard.  Had a few Cree bulbs go dim on me, and quite a few ones sourced from you know where.  Had one in a bedroom get to 1/3 brightness.  Thought I was going blind.  Nope, just LEDs fading into the night.

Kind of the 2nd version of the bulb cartel fiasco, in my opinion.  After all, if you make a lifetime bulb, soon no one will need to buy any more!  So let's make LEDs that die...  Same as making short incandescent lifetimes.


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## woodchucker (Mar 18, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> This dimming seems to be inherent, especially if the LEDs are driven hard.  Had a few Cree bulbs go dim on me, and quite a few ones sourced from you know where.  Had one in a bedroom get to 1/3 brightness.  Thought I was going blind.  Nope, just LEDs fading into the night.
> 
> Kind of the 2nd version of the bulb cartel fiasco, in my opinion.  After all, if you make a lifetime bulb, soon no one will need to buy any more!  So let's make LEDs that die...  Same as making short incandescent lifetimes.


In Dubai they make bulbs that have extra leds, and are not overdriven. They are not allowed to be sold here.  I think that's fantastic how that is.

The cost to run the LED's is much less, no doubt. But the longevity is quite questionable. When I did my bathroom over, I went to the wafers. We'll see how they do.  I like them so far.


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## WobblyHand (Mar 18, 2022)

It's been about 100 years since the last bulb cartel.  No joke, there was a cartel where the major world wide manufacturers of incandescent bulbs agreed to make bulbs that only lasted a certain number of hours. Osram, GE, and Sylvania were members of the cartel.


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## 7milesup (Mar 18, 2022)

rabler said:


> ELTs are usually mounted high in the tail but can be manually reset. Any aircraft radio will receive 121.5MHz that they broadcast, so easy to test.



I have never seen an ELT mounted high on the tail.  The antenna maybe, but the unit itself is usually in the tailcone or aft fuselage area, with a connection to the whip antenna via coax cable ( in smaller piston-powered aircraft).  The ICAO now specifies that ELTs be operated in the 406Mhz band, although the 121.5 is still utilized and necessary. However, the satellites that previously could pick up the 121.5 signal were decommissioned in 2009, making the 406Mhz ELTs rather advantageous due to the new satellites narrowing the search area down to 17 sq miles vs 782 sq miles with a 121.5Mhz signal only.  
And that is the daily ELT lesson!  LOL.


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## rabler (Mar 18, 2022)

7milesup said:


> I have never seen an ELT mounted high on the tail.  The antenna maybe, but the unit itself is usually in the tailcone or aft fuselage area, with a connection to the whip antenna via coax cable ( in smaller piston-powered aircraft).  The ICAO now specifies that ELTs be operated in the 406Mhz band, although the 121.5 is still utilized and necessary. However, the satellites that previously could pick up the 121.5 signal were decommissioned in 2009, making the 406Mhz ELTs rather advantageous due to the new satellites narrowing the search area down to 17 sq miles vs 782 sq miles with a 121.5Mhz signal only.
> And that is the daily ELT lesson!  LOL.


Color me a fool.  Yep a little Googling shows you are correct for 152s which I use to work with. Maybe I’m remembering the antenna, it has been nearly two decades.   IIRC 406 was just become a requirement when I was had to quit flying (2004).


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## rabler (Mar 20, 2022)

After being gone for a week, I’m back to work on this shop build.  Got the office mostly framed up today.  Need more 2x4’s.




While I was gone the power company contractor got the new line buried.  Hopefully I can get them to hook that up to the transformer soon.


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## extropic (Mar 20, 2022)

Too late. Sorry I didn't think of it until I saw your picture. I wish the guy that did the framing in my shop (interior rooms) had used it.
At this point, I recommend you caulk both sides of the sills before you sheet the walls.
I'm less interested in the thermal properties than I am gasketing the joint to minimize air, fluid and bug leaks/paths






						Dow Sill Seal Foam Gasket 3.5 inch x 50 foot - Thermal Insulations - Amazon.com
					

Dow Sill Seal Foam Gasket 3.5 inch x 50 foot - Thermal Insulations - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com


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## rabler (Mar 21, 2022)

extropic said:


> Too late. Sorry I didn't think of it until I saw your picture. I wish the guy that did the framing in my shop (interior rooms) had used it.
> At this point, I recommend you caulk both sides of the sills before you sheet the walls.
> I'm less interested in the thermal properties than I am gasketing the joint to minimize air, fluid and bug leaks/paths


Keeping stink bugs out is always a worthwhile endeavor.  Being in the middle of corn/soy fields has some disadvantages.

I have some extra rolls of fiberglass insulation.  I will probably use those up insulating the office walls/ceiling.  Obviously the exterior portion of the office space will get the same R-23 treatment that the rest of the exterior walls and ceiling will get.  I've already sprayed polyurethane foam around the doors and windows.  The R-23 will be on top of 1/2" styrofoam under the exterior metal walls, and 1" styrofoam roof.   I didn't insulate under the concrete slab, so that will be my biggest heat loss.

End of next week will mark the one month point on the concrete slab, so I can seal it, and then start moving stuff in.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 21, 2022)

I watched something on YouTube recently comparing fire resistance of insulations (spray foam, foam board, fiberglass and one other). I was shocked by how fast foam board, then spray foam went up in flames. The fiberglass only had the paper ignite but went out after that. There was one more that also is a spray type closed cell and it was not affected at all.


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## woodchucker (Mar 21, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> I watched something on YouTube recently comparing fire resistance of insulations (spray foam, foam board, fiberglass and one other). I was shocked by how fast foam board, then spray foam went up in flames. The fiberglass only had the paper ignite but went out after that. There was one more that also is a spray type closed cell and it was not affected at all.


Checkout rockwool...   I use it to protect cabinets while sweating pipes. I have used it to heat parts, you use it to keep the heat in with fire bricks.


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

Slowly plodding along, I'm a pretty sad carpenter and definitely not fast.  But the price is right 

Getting the office enclosed.  Got all of the office rough wiring done yesterday, need to work on putting in insulation in the walls before closing up the inside.  Also got most of the wiring on the rest of the building more or less closed up.  Hosting a small party in there tomorrow so don't want anyone getting shocked.



Next week I'll seal the floors.  There are four large pieces of equipment I'd like to get moved in ASAP to get them out of another space:  the K&T 3k vertical mill, the Monarch 612 lathe, a Thompson 6x24 surface grinder, and a large granite table (former CMM table).  I'll need to make a base for the granite table, and cut some steel pucks for feet for the other equipment, before doing that.   Then rent a oversized forklift or telehandler to move all that stuff.  That'll happen before I get the walls finished, which is not ideal, but I need to start reorganizing.


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## woodchucker (Mar 25, 2022)

rabler said:


> Slowly plodding along, I'm a pretty sad carpenter and definitely not fast.  But the price is right
> 
> Getting the office enclosed.  Got all of the office rough wiring done yesterday, need to work on putting in insulation in the walls before closing up the inside.  Also got most of the wiring on the rest of the building more or less closed up.  Hosting a small party in there tomorrow so don't want anyone getting shocked.
> View attachment 401742
> ...


It's horrible working around equip... But I get it..... Hope you can get as much done as possible before moving stuff.


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## extropic (Mar 25, 2022)

@rabler

If it's not too invasive, I'm curious regarding the purpose/nature of the party.

I don't think I've ever hear mention of a "Shop Warming" party. Attendees could bring nuts & bolts & small tools, LOL.  

I've lost track, did the Power Utility swap the service connection yet?


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 25, 2022)

rabler said:


> Slowly plodding along, I'm a pretty sad carpenter and definitely not fast.  But the price is right
> 
> Getting the office enclosed.  Got all of the office rough wiring done yesterday, need to work on putting in insulation in the walls before closing up the inside.  Also got most of the wiring on the rest of the building more or less closed up.  Hosting a small party in there tomorrow so don't want anyone getting shocked.
> View attachment 401742
> ...


Nice, not to be a picker, but you should run your sheet rock horizontally not vertically. It provides better strength and stability. This way you only have some stability in between the sheet rock joints and none at the joint. If you still have the inside open especially on the ceiling, do them horizontal to the studs or trusses and stagger the joints like a brick wall.


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## woodchucker (Mar 25, 2022)

You know in the old days, they hung it vertically.  I remember the first time I saw it horizontal, it was a crew doing it in an industrial building and I asked why, they said the steel studs needed more support from each other more flex, and he clarified it by saying that wood didn't require the same.  He also said it was more work to do horizontal because you had to trim or beat down the edges.  Sounded good to me.  I have done both, gotta say going vertical is easier, less work..  but really no problem either way.


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## ahazi (Mar 25, 2022)

rabler said:


> Slowly plodding along, I'm a pretty sad carpenter and definitely not fast.  But the price is right
> 
> Getting the office enclosed.  Got all of the office rough wiring done yesterday, need to work on putting in insulation in the walls before closing up the inside.  Also got most of the wiring on the rest of the building more or less closed up.  Hosting a small party in there tomorrow so don't want anyone getting shocked.
> View attachment 401742
> ...


Before moving equipment might be worthwhile doing minimal surface treatment to the concrete to reduce porosity and improve durability. See attached as one of the options. This particular one is very easy to apply and relatively inexpensive.


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

ahazi said:


> Before moving equipment might be worthwhile doing minimal surface treatment to the concrete to reduce porosity and improve durability. See attached as one of the options. This particular one is very easy to apply and relatively inexpensive.


Guess I didn't make that clear enough.  Next week I'll seal the floors.  _After that_ I will look into the forklift rental.


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> If it's not too invasive, I'm curious regarding the purpose/nature of the party.
> 
> ...


I have some rather interesting friends.  One of them is having a birthday tomorrow, so we'll be celebrating.


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## extropic (Mar 25, 2022)

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> If it's not too invasive, I'm curious regarding the purpose/nature of the party.
> 
> ...


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Nice, not to be a picker, but you should run your sheet rock horizontally not vertically. It provides better strength and stability. This way you only have some stability in between the sheet rock joints and none at the joint. If you still have the inside open especially on the ceiling, do them horizontal to the studs or trusses and stagger the joints like a brick wall.


Not sure I follow.  I do my vertical sheet rock so that joints only occur on a stud, so there are no unsupported edges to a piece of sheetrock.  Are you comparing to having joints not over a stud?!   I use construction adhesive along all the studs/joists.  Horizontal sheetrock has a 16" unsupported span between studs (Ok, to be more precise, 14.5").

  My former house in Marietta that I had with a 2 story vaulted ceiling with sheetrock run horizontally.  You could see the horizontal joints where they had bowed slightly after several years.  I would guess that the higher pieces of sheetrock had been installed with the horizontal joint under pressure from the weight of the higher pieces, and eventually resulted in some buckling/bowing.  So I'm not sold on the superiority of horizontal sheetrock.

I'm still vacillating on how to cover the interior of the 12' exterior walls.   The surface to be covered is really only 11', as there is a 2x12 at the top.  Concerns are fireproofing for welding, being able to hang tools on the wall, durability, cost, etc.    My initial though was using a 3' interior wainscot of 26ga metal at the bottom run horizontally, a 4' high span of slatwall or plywood run horizontally, and a 4' high span of sheetrock run horizontally.  I'm currently debating just going sheetrock, then some slatwall, and sheetrock again on top.

As a side note, the new hire at the lumber counter at my local Menards couldn't find "drywall" in their computer, and asked what else it might be called.  "sheetrock" was my second try.  Gypsum board was my third try, which resulted in her stating they only had the "lightweight" variety of 1/2".  Yeah, it's all lightweight I told her, just marketing.


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

> @extropic said:
> If it's not too invasive, I'm curious regarding the purpose/nature of the party.
> I don't think I've ever hear mention of a "Shop Warming" party. Attendees could bring nuts & bolts & small tools, LOL.
> *I've lost track, did the Power Utility swap the service connection yet?*


Geez, give a guy a few minutes to work through the long list of questions.  Admittedly my non-linear and fragmented approach could be problematic.  But, to answer your bolded question, no.
I've been playing phone tag with the line superintendent for our area, who is the one to schedule such things.  He is also typically out in the field, not at his desk.  I'm still running on about 200' of 10/3 UF, wired into a 20A 220V circuit breaker in the old shop.  Gives me enough power to run the lights and circular saw, chargers for the drill/drivers, and test out the wiring circuits as I get them completed.


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> It's horrible working around equip... But I get it..... Hope you can get as much done as possible before moving stuff.


Yeah.  Story of my life, my current shop was packed to the brim when I started working on it.  I'm going to minimize what I move in and all of that goes only in corner, but I'm dreading that.  I won't try to power those machines up, or even level them, until I get all of the construction done in that corner.   I'll probably try to hang the initial wall covering too, but joints and paint may be an after the equipment thing.  Deck chairs on the titanic, but I suspect we all struggle with space allocation.  But waiting to move stuff until after I finish up all the built in benches, and cranes, and other such stuff means tying up other space too long.  Also I'm going to put the 3x4 surface plate in the office before I build the door frame and hang a door, so that I can roll it in by putting a dolly under the stand, otherwise once the door is in place I'd have to take the 1000 lbs of granite off the stand and roll it through the door on edge, then try to hoist it back onto the stand.


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> You know in the old days, they hung it vertically.  I remember the first time I saw it horizontal, it was a crew doing it in an industrial building and I asked why, they said the steel studs needed more support from each other more flex, and he clarified it by saying that wood didn't require the same.  He also said it was more work to do horizontal because you had to trim or beat down the edges.  Sounded good to me.  I have done both, gotta say going vertical is easier, less work..  but really no problem either way.


I've never tried to taper the 4' edges when doing it horizontally, I just take a little more time to do a long taper when building up the joints.  But my mud work on drywall is usually a 5-6 passes and includes at least one pass after hitting the whole thing with PVA primer.  Like I said, I plod


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## woodchucker (Mar 25, 2022)

5-6 is pretty good. I know they say 3, but I have never done it in 3.. then again, I'm a perfectionist when it comes to drywall seams. I don't want to ever see them.  The guys that did my home sucked. I see every joint .. when I did the basement I made sure you could not see them... that way it doesn't annoy me... bathroom same, except maybe the inside of the closet.. when you can't fit in the closet, it's hard to get it 100%


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> 5-6 is pretty good. I know they say 3, but I have never done it in 3.. then again, I'm a perfectionist when it comes to drywall seams. I don't want to ever see them.  The guys that did my home sucked. I see every joint .. when I did the basement I made sure you could not see them... that way it doesn't annoy me... bathroom same, except maybe the inside of the closet.. when you can't fit in the closet, it's hard to get it 100%


When you live there it is easy to do more passes vs. separate trips for contractors.  But yeah, I like my drywall joints to look good.  I don't use popcorn or texture on ceilings either.

Do you use a floodlight at a grazing angle to pick up the imperfections?


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## woodchucker (Mar 25, 2022)

rabler said:


> When you live there it is easy to do more passes vs. separate trips for contractors.  But yeah, I like my drywall joints to look good.  I don't use popcorn or texture on ceilings either.
> 
> Do you use a floodlight at a grazing angle to pick up the imperfections?


I worked with a guy who said I can do drywall and never sand. I said BS... he said bet me 10...   I said you can do it, but it won't look good. He said I bet I can. He was talking about taking a sponge and wiping it rather than sand it. I told him go for it... guaranteed it will look wavy. 
So he did his job using a sponge, the screw holes were fine (mostly), but his joints were wavy... He didn't think so but once he painted it, you could see it.  I could see it b4..  And your hand always knows, you can always feel a wave before you see it.

But I used that technique when I went to help another friend and he put so much mud on, that there was no way I wanted to help sand it off. At that time I didn't have a drywall sander (the type with the bucket for water to collect the drywall)... what a great aid.. anyway we quickly reduced the excess... and then we were able to sand it the following week when I came back.


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> I worked with a guy who said I can do drywall and never sand. I said BS... he said bet me 10...   I said you can do it, but it won't look good. He said I bet I can. He was talking about taking a sponge and wiping it rather than sand it. I told him go for it... guaranteed it will look wavy.
> So he did his job using a sponge, the screw holes were fine (mostly), but his joints were wavy... He didn't think so but once he painted it, you could see it.  I could see it b4..  And your hand always knows, you can always feel a wave before you see it.
> 
> But I used that technique when I went to help another friend and he put so much mud on, that there was no way I wanted to help sand it off. At that time I didn't have a drywall sander (the type with the bucket for water to collect the drywall)... what a great aid.. anyway we quickly reduced the excess... and then we were able to sand it the following week when I came back.


I sand, but only after the third pass and later.  Before that I just use a 10" joint knife and scrape the wall, if you catch it when it is not quite fully dry this works pretty well to remove any high spots, especially those lines from the edge of a knife.


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## woodchucker (Mar 25, 2022)

rabler said:


> I sand, but only after the third pass and later.  Before that I just use a 10" joint knife and scrape the wall, if you catch it when it is not quite fully dry this works pretty well to remove any high spots, especially those lines from the edge of a knife.


I use a 10" blade too. I have lost the ability to bend it while working it. I used to have the strength to be able to bend it in the middle so it feathered ... now I do it a little different. not as efficient... but the best I got now.


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## rabler (Mar 25, 2022)

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> If it's not too invasive, I'm curious regarding the purpose/nature of the party.
> 
> ...


I’ve had parties in all of the last three buildings I’ve built on the property.  Getting the large machines out of the second of those will allow that one to resume it’s secondary purpose as a place to host, as that building has a bathroom and kitchenette.  It is also my place to service tractors and vehicles, which I am behind on.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 25, 2022)

Well just tried to help, but it is your project.


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## ahazi (Mar 25, 2022)

rabler said:


> Guess I didn't make that clear enough.  Next week I'll seal the floors.  _After that_ I will look into the forklift rental.


Sorry, I missed that. Good luck!


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## woodchucker (Mar 25, 2022)

rabler said:


> When you live there it is easy to do more passes vs. separate trips for contractors.  But yeah, I like my drywall joints to look good.  I don't use popcorn or texture on ceilings either.
> 
> Do you use a floodlight at a grazing angle to pick up the imperfections?


No, I use my hand. I find that the eyes deceive me when all the different shades between the wall board, and mud, and smear marks. So I run my hand over everything. I think your hand can pickup the slightest deviation, while your eyes can be tricked.  Also I have had both lenses replaced in my eyes due to cataracts,  and due to complications with my eyes (known before the surgery) I have some limitations.


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## BGHansen (Mar 26, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Nice, not to be a picker, but you should run your sheet rock horizontally not vertically. It provides better strength and stability. This way you only have some stability in between the sheet rock joints and none at the joint. If you still have the inside open especially on the ceiling, do them horizontal to the studs or trusses and stagger the joints like a brick wall.


An added bonus is when taping off and working the joint it's a 4'.  Beats going up and down a ladder.

Bruce


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## rabler (Mar 26, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> No, I use my hand. I find that the eyes deceive me when all the different shades between the wall board, and mud, and smear marks


That's why I use a coat of drywall primer, to even out the shading.  But sounds like, especially given the lens replacements, you have a working approach.  My wife had her lenses replaced a couple years ago.


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## FOMOGO (Mar 26, 2022)

Generally takes me four coats to go get a truly good finish for a smooth surface. The guy I learned from many moons ago, said the trick is to take it all off on the tapered horizontal runs on every coat. Generally three coats will get it. The flat ends need a slight buildup on the first coat, and then feather out. More often four coats there. If your doing it right there should be very little sanding to do. I always used to use a 12" knife, but in my geezerdom I've been using a 10" more often. 12' sheets make less work finishing, but are a bear to handle on ceilings, especially 15' up. Mike


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## rabler (Mar 26, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> Generally takes me four coats to go get a truly good finish for a smooth surface. The guy I learned from many moons ago, said the trick is to take it all off on the tapered horizontal runs on every coat. Generally three coats will get it. The flat ends need a slight buildup on the first coat, and then feather out. More often four coats there. If your doing it right there should be very little sanding to do. I always used to use a 12" knife, but in my geezerdom I've been using a 10" more often. 12' sheets make less work finishing, but are a bear to handle on ceilings, especially 15' up. Mike


That's skill to get it all in 4 passes.  
I'm happy I paid to have the 12' ceiling done in bright white metal to avoid having to do that.  The 8' office ceiling is bad enough, but I have a panel hoist that will help with that.


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## woodchucker (Mar 26, 2022)

I also thin my finish coat more than my base coats. Just a little. I find I get a nice smooth finish with less fuss.  when I talked about bending the knife, I am talking about a crown in the middle. That way you have a slight high to take down it feathers nice when sanding, and will help on sheets where the taper bumps up, instead of smoothly transitioning. It creates a bridge with a raised center, and the sanding is what finishes up. it also helps with the shrinking, and eliminates going back again.


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## rabler (Mar 27, 2022)

*Electrical stuff (*probably pretty dull):
Well, the wiring is almost done.  A few things to finish up yet.  Haven't done anything with the 3 phase but that will all be in outside the wall conduit.  I ended up putting in about 50 duplex receptacle fixtures, all 20A commercial grade.  I like the newer style where the screw clamps the wire in much like a circuit breaker.  Of course ground wires are still hooked around a screw.

The 20A receptacles are all installed in quad arrangements in a dual gang box, so that the left duplex outlets are on a separate breaker from the right.  I could have used a multi-wire branch circuit configuration and saved some wire, but just ran two parallel runs of 12/2 NM.   I have 6 zones, each with a separate pair of 20A breakers, so fairly well distributed.   I made sure the office is a "zone" of it's own so that the computers and electronics won't share a circuit with any machine equipment.

I ran a similar pair of 20A 220V lines to paired receptacles so that I have quite a few 220V drops around the shop.  No where near as many as the 120V but about 10 locations.    Added one circuit of 30A 220 outlets with 5 receptacles scattered around so medium sized single phase equipment (such as VFD powered devices in the 3-5 HP range) can be easily plugged in.  The three floor boxes are each run via conduit back to the main panel so they can easily be wired/rewired as needed.  Plan is to pull 3 strands of #8, plus 3 strands of #10 to each box, plus a #8 ground.  Room for a few more breakers to run those, likely 220 and 120 to each floor box (which is basically a 2-gang size).

Main lights are on a 15A circuit.  That drives a total of fourteen 8' LED fixtures at 80W each (8000 lumens each).  Five fixtures are in a long row down the center of the shop.  Front half and back half each have 2 more rows of fixtures closer to the walls to provide good light distribution.  All three of those light groups can be switched from front door, back door, or office door.  Then a separate 15A to handle the front outside light and GFCI outlet.  Same thing with the back door.  And one more 15A circuit for some over-bench lights and the overhead lights in the office. Other than the outlets just inside and outside the doors, nothing else has GFCI's.

The three phase stuff will be mostly done after I've finished in the walls.  I'm planning on using two Siemens three-phase panels, wired together with 2/0 Al SER so I can manage 80/100Amps of 3-phase load (which is as much as a 160/200 amp building service is really going to allow).  For now, 100A breaker off the main panel to the RPC, but I could bump that to 125A.   Looks like to do it right I should put a single phase disconnect before the RPC, and a three phase disconnect after the RPC, although I need to poke through the code a bit more on that.


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## rabler (Mar 30, 2022)

I started making feet for the heavy equipment.  Hocky pucks, out of 3" diameter cold rolled steel.  I need 8 for the Monarch 612 (9,000lbs) and 4 for the K&T 3K (8,0000) lbs.

Started turning them at 450 RPM, on the Monarch 12" CK.   Nice finish to start off (outer diameter) but you can see as I got toward the center (slower FPM) it got worse.  Literally scraping at the center.  This was using a cnmpg321f3p ic8250 iscar insert for those tooling nerds.  HSS would have probably gave a more uniform result.  Second picture is at 650 RPM, approx .020 depth of cut.  Using power feed, .006 per rev feed.  The third one didn't clean up on my eyeball .020-030 depth of cut so I too another cut at .010 to clean it up.  Yeah, shallower depth of cuts don't work well with carbide.  I did 16 of these, rare for me to do that much repetition, so it was fun to make mental notes to keep myself amused.  I had set up stock on the horizontal bandsaw to chop these off and was turning one face while the next piece was cutting.  I got all 16 faced on one side.  Sure, not the prettiest job, but these would work OK fresh of the bandsaw.  I'm not going to turn the outside (why bother).

I'll face the other side and drill a large divot.  Maybe some rattle can paint, as they'll otherwise rust sitting on the concrete.







So these are 3" diameter. Or 1.5" radius.  Area is pi * r^2, with the chamfer I'll call r=1.414 which means a bit more than 6 sq in of area.  I need to support a maximum of 2000lbs static weight on average.  Of course with leveling, and weight not uniformly distributed across multiple feet, I could be supporting three times that easily.  That would be 6000 lbs, over 6 sq in, or 1000 psi on 4000 psi concrete.  That sounds like a comfortable margin.  But, thinking about weight distribution, it seems problematic to me to assume that steel on concrete is going to give a uniform pressure distribution.  One tiny grain of sand (or a chip, ...) would totally ruin that.   Would be good to put something on there to provide some better distribution of the forces.  I want something that will provide some give and maybe even a tad bit of vibration damping, but not sacrifice the stability of the machines.  I looked at thin adhesive backed rubber from McMaster, but then it occured to me that the local big box store sells adhesive backed vinyl tiles individually.  So I picked up a couple of those, 1 foot square, for $0.69 apiece.  My plan is to cut those into 3" squares on the table saw, stack them up, drill a 3/8 in hole through the center of the stack, put an arbor with a couple of washers and a clamping nut on them, and spin them on the lathe to turn them round.  Anyone tried turning vinyl tile?  Thinking a sharp HSS tool ...

They also came this morning and hooked up the new meter.  Shop now has real power, it's own 200A disconnect.  Of course now the house is running on my 20A 220V make-do piece of 10/3 UF until I dig the last foot of mobile home feeder to the old disconnect, tear out the old meter base, and connect up the new wire through conduit into the old disconnect.

But, lunch first.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 30, 2022)

You will need to put a large metal washer on both sides to support the material and don't cut too fast and build up heat, otherwise it will just melt them altogether. What ever you use under the puck will eventually break down, if it were me, I wouldn't put anything and use a leave blower to clean the area well. But that is just me.

You might want to think about putting a small recess in the middle of each of your pucks to accept the leveling screws. Only needs to be a 1/4" or so deep and slightly larger than the jacking screws. I think the leveling screws on the Monarch are flat and hollow, but if they are solid, you can round them slightly and add the same radius to the puck's recess.


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## rabler (Mar 30, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> You might want to think about putting a small recess in the middle of each of your pucks to accept the leveling screws. Only needs to be a 1/4" or so deep and slightly larger than the jacking screws. I think the leveling screws on the Monarch are flat and hollow, but if they are solid, you can round them slightly and add the same radius to the puck's recess.


My thought there is to use a 1" drill bit and drill a divot in the center of one face of each, just deep enough that full diameter of the bit barely cuts.  The taper on the point of the bit will allow any size bolt up to 1" to register.  Probably drill a 1/4" pilot hole first. for ease of drilling     The leveling bolts are a mix of things (i.e., not original).  I can cut them to 118 degree angle but more critical is removing a bit of thread to avoid mashing the end of the thread.


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## extropic (Mar 30, 2022)

Good progress. The thought of running the house on 20A brought a smile.

I think you're overthinking the puck/slab interface. A grain of sand will be subjected to extreme pressure and be crushed to dust. So what?
Each puck/slab interface will initially have very little area of contact. The surfaces will work against each other and achieve equilibrium, over time.
This is one reason why machine level should be rechecked once in a while.
Do we know the compressive strength of vinyl tile? I didn't find a specification (cursory Google search). 
What are the properties of the adhesive layer? Not attractive, I'll bet.
If you can't live without it, better to use a material of known composition. HDPE seems to be up to it (among many others). You won't mind a little creep in 100 years.    Cheap, small, thin cutting boards come to mind.

A spherical type joint (not cones) at the leveler/puck is best. Fill the drill point recess with grease at assembly.

My $0.02. YMMV


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## rabler (Mar 30, 2022)

extropic said:


> I think you're overthinking the puck/slab interface. A grain of sand will be subjected to extreme pressure and be crushed to dust. So what?
> Each puck/slab interface will initially have very little area of contact. The surfaces will work against each other and achieve equilibrium, over time.
> This is one reason why machine level should be rechecked once in a while.
> Do we know the compressive strength of vinyl tile? I didn't find a specification (cursory Google search).
> ...


Vinyl tile is nominally PVC.  But who knows what any given manufacturer does.  Regardless, I most certainly am overthinking it ...  

After a day of frantically wrestling with 4/0 aluminum cable to beat the rain,, we're back to a 200A service to the house, and a separate 200A service to the new shop, both running off a 400A meter. Got that done before the rain hit, expecting about an inch tonight.   In the process of rewiring that, I realized that whoever had wired the old shop/garage, had run 3 wires to it and not the proper 4 wires from the disconnect.   There is a ground rod at the old shop, don't know whether the neutral and ground are bonded in that shop's panel or not.  Regardless, some electrical improvements required there.


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## rabler (Apr 6, 2022)

After a few weeks hiatus on any major shop purchases for cash flow reasons, I went ahead and bought drywall and blow-in fiberglass insulation.  Our local Menards is running an 11% rebate as they often do.   Got the insulation and  half of the 70 sheets of drywall unloaded.  Went with 4x8 sheets, larger sheets would be less joint mud work, but handling larger sheets solo is getting to be a challenge for me.  Putting this up should keep me busy for the next month at least.

Decided to go with drywall for the entire wall.  Can add plywood or other features in key areas later.  Considering intumescent paint for the bottom few feet in the welding area.  Also went with fiberglass rather than cellulose for the insulation, a bit more expensive but hopefully somewhat less issues with mold.

The concrete floor has been treated with a concrete hardener but not yet sealed.


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## rabler (Apr 12, 2022)

Just plodding along on drywall work.  Getting maybe 5 or 6 sheets hung per day.  Slow but steady.  I have a LOT of outlets, so having to cut holes.  Would have made sense to use a drywall router, but I'd already installed the outlets.  Easier for the amateur to get the wiring right when I can still see the wires between the boxes.   I set most of my outlets at 38" from the floor  to the bottom of the box.  I figure this leaves 6" above counter height where I put in workbenches.  I'm putting in the sheets horizontally, the main 6"x6" posts supporting the building are on 8' centers, so I'm breaking sheets on those.  While nominally a 12' ceiling, if you look at the top 2x12" header, that drops the area to cover down by 11" or so.   So it works out to cut a sheet to just fit under the outlets in most places.    My dust wall came out a bit differently.  Grinders will be kept on the far side of that from the machine equipment.  I'm leaving the center open so it is not a complete barrier but hopefully enough to reduce the spread of grindings.





I've also been working on the concrete treatment.  Challenge has been that we've had mostly rainy, high humidity days.  The concrete slab is of course a bit cold, and always sweating/condensing, so getting it to dry out enough to treat is a challenge.  Should make for a good concrete setting though.  I've been running a fan and a small dehumidifier, and progressing in sections.  I'm using the GhostShield products, 4500 densifier and 9505 sealer.    Seem to be highly rated, definitely pricey.  I have certainly found that on polished concrete, their estimation of amount needed/sq foot is ridiculously high.  Even using about a 1.25 x more concentrated than they recommend, I'll probably use only half the recommended amount, and I was using the high end of their coverage estimates.  I had to broom it in several times to disperse puddles, and it took quite a bit longer to soak in then they recommend.    Hopefully this gives a good oil resistant surface.




20 cubic yard dumpster just arrived, so I can clean up some of the leftover mess from initial construction.  In addition to wet and rainy, we've had several days of gusty winds.  Tired of chasing partial sheets of styrofoam insulation around the yard as they get blown off the junk pile, despite the scraps of wood stacked on top.    Otherwise would have waited to finish the drywall work before getting the dumpster.  Will be going the lazy man's route, and using the excavator to move stuff into the dumpster.


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## Papa Charlie (Apr 13, 2022)

Looking really nice. Well thought out. It will be so nice when you can finally start moving your equipment in and getting on to using the shop.
This Spring has been a strange one. But sometimes here in the PNW it is hard to tell as the weather it often strange and unpredictable.


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## rabler (Apr 13, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> It will be so nice when you can finally start moving your equipment in and getting on to using the shop.


Yes!  Very eager for that day.


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## Todd3138 (Apr 13, 2022)

rabler said:


> If there is one universal truth it is that tools expand to fill all available shop space.   I know the kinetic theory of gases says the same thing, but seriously, we always need more shop space, right?



I'm new to the forums and just found your post from last year.  Man, what a fantastic project you guys got into!  I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know where things stand, but I look forward to perusing it and seeing your progress and decisions.  My situation was somewhat similar in terms of shop needs and after building my main metal shop, I decided to keep the 14x40 shed as a the wood shop and use the pole building exclusively for metal.  I've managed to sort out the tool issues pretty well and on the odd occasion I need something from one shop or the other, the two are only about 5 feet apart so it's an easy task.  Still, I have found that just duplicating tools is easier if not necessarily the most efficient or cost-effective way to solve a problem!  Fortunately, the wood stuff is less demanding than my metal shop and I have actually built a pretty nice collection of old hand tools for the wood shop, many of which I have restored which is a really fun sort of project in its own right.


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## rabler (Apr 13, 2022)

Todd3138 said:


> I'm new to the forums and just found your post from last year.  Man, what a fantastic project you guys got into!  I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know where things stand, but I look forward to perusing it and seeing your progress and decisions.  My situation was somewhat similar in terms of shop needs and after building my main metal shop, I decided to keep the 14x40 shed as a the wood shop and use the pole building exclusively for metal.  I've managed to sort out the tool issues pretty well and on the odd occasion I need something from one shop or the other, the two are only about 5 feet apart so it's an easy task.  Still, I have found that just duplicating tools is easier if not necessarily the most efficient or cost-effective way to solve a problem!  Fortunately, the wood stuff is less demanding than my metal shop and I have actually built a pretty nice collection of old hand tools for the wood shop, many of which I have restored which is a really fun sort of project in its own right.


Welcome to the forum.  Glad you have enjoyed my construction thread.  It does meander off topic now and then, but that's part of the fun of discussing things amongst a group, and often interesting side conversations seem to develop.

Glad you've found multiple buildings to work out OK.  I am still at least a month from tooling up this building (other than the misc things used for construction).  I'm sure I'll end up duplicating many of the basics, screwdrivers, socket wrenches, and cordless drills.


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## rabler (Apr 13, 2022)

I forgot to add a very important picture.  Here is the clean room/office.  I'm waiting to finish framing the door, as my 3' x 4' surface plate will go in there, and I'd rather not have to take the piece of granite off and rotate it sidewise to get it in.

The important part is the red piece of furniture, left over from the house.  It is where I sit to ponder my next steps, or just think how much I will enjoy using this space   .


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## Todd3138 (Apr 13, 2022)

rabler said:


> I forgot to add a very important picture.  Here is the clean room/office.  I'm waiting to finish framing the door, as my 3' x 4' surface plate will go in there, and I'd rather not have to take the piece of granite off and rotate it sidewise to get it in.
> 
> The important part is the red piece of furniture, left over from the house.  It is where I sit to ponder my next steps, or just think how much I will enjoy using this space   .


My pondering chair - which I love nonetheless - is a piece of crap old office roller chair that I took home when it no longer had a place in my office!  I need to find one like yours - that's some kingly pondering comfort right there!


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## jwmelvin (Apr 13, 2022)

rabler said:


> I'm waiting to finish framing the door, as my 3' x 4' surface plate will go in there, and I'd rather not have to take the piece of granite off and rotate it sidewise to get it in.



It’s funny you mention that. My shop is a ~30x22’ section walled off within a larger (55x100’) space. Although the shop has a garage door at one end, its only connections to the larger space are single entry doors. I’m about to rearrange to capture the remaining 25’ (past the 30’ used now) of the larger space and considering moving my 4x3’ surface plate from the smaller section to free up space among the machines. To do so, I either have to do the edge dance you describe or enlarge one of the current doors into a double. I’m strongly considering the double door to facilitate equipment movement between the segmented shop and the larger space.


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## rabler (Apr 14, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> It’s funny you mention that. My shop is a ~30x22’ section walled off within a larger (55x100’) space. Although the shop has a garage door at one end, its only connections to the larger space are single entry doors. I’m about to rearrange to capture the remaining 25’ (past the 30’ used now) of the larger space and considering moving my 4x3’ surface plate from the smaller section to free up space among the machines. To do so, I either have to do the edge dance you describe or enlarge one of the current doors into a double. I’m strongly considering the double door to facilitate equipment movement between the segmented shop and the larger space.


Is that a rented space?  Or bays that you're using for something else? (The dimensions don't add up)
I was careful in my shop layout.  While I tried to split the shop to keep the grinding and fabrication stuff somewhat separate from the actual machining, I did keep a 10' wide opening between the two halves, so anything I can get through the main rollup door can be similarly moved into the back area.  Depending on how much isolation you need, I'd want something even bigger than a double door for a 25' x 22' area.


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## jwmelvin (Apr 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> Is that a rented space?  Or bays that you're using for something else? (The dimensions don't add up)
> I was careful in my shop layout.  While I tried to split the shop to keep the grinding and fabrication stuff somewhat separate from the actual machining, I did keep a 10' wide opening between the two halves, so anything I can get through the main rollup door can be similarly moved into the back area.  Depending on how much isolation you need, I'd want something even bigger than a double door for a 25' x 22' area.


It's my garage, which is 100x55'. I posted a model of it here, and really should update that thread as things have come so far. The garage has columns down the long center, segmenting it into five "bays," three with garage doors, each 20x55'. One bay is enclosed with walls, and the wall caps the end of the bay after about 37', leaving 18' of that bay connected with the large space (I just measured, correcting my estimates above). Other than those two walls defining a 37x22' metal shop, the space is continuous other than the columns. As you suggested, it accommodates other uses: parking, storage, auto shop, wood shop.

The 37x22' metal shop has a full-height curtain that separates 13' at the end. That isolated section is for the lathe and mills, and the curtain works very well to keep grit out. The larger section I use for all abrasive work and general fab.

I'd like to be able to move things in and out of the 37x22 metal shop without going out and back in the garage doors, as the pavement isn't completely flat outside the doors (channel drain, etc.). 

I guess once I get a pallet jack, I'll really want a way to move between spaces. My current action is moving wood working out of the 18x22' space left beyond the metal shop in the first bay, and claiming that space as general work area, maybe metrology (hence the desire to put my surface plate there). 

Anyhow, sorry for the distraction. I'm enjoying seeing your progress and its great that you are thinking of things in advance.


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## woodchucker (Apr 14, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> It’s funny you mention that. My shop is a ~30x22’ section walled off within a larger (55x100’) space. Although the shop has a garage door at one end, its only connections to the larger space are single entry doors. I’m about to rearrange to capture the remaining 25’ (past the 30’ used now) of the larger space and considering moving my 4x3’ surface plate from the smaller section to free up space among the machines. To do so, I either have to do the edge dance you describe or enlarge one of the current doors into a double. I’m strongly considering the double door to facilitate equipment movement between the segmented shop and the larger space.


you could always do a 3 stooges move.
you can cut a slot in the wall /doorway for the granite to go through.
Or is that fred and barney, or Ralph and Ed...


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## rabler (Apr 14, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> It's my garage, which is 100x55'. I posted a model of it here, and really should update that thread as things have come so far. ...
> 
> Anyhow, sorry for the distraction. I'm enjoying seeing your progress and its great that you are thinking of things in advance.



Thanks for the pointer to your layout, that helps visualize what you are talking about.  It is always interesting to see other people's shop layouts, big and small.  So I certainly don't consider it a distraction,  more sharing and thoughts (almost) always appreciated.


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## rabler (Apr 19, 2022)

Weekly photo update

Slowly making progress on sheetrock.  I have most of the interior walls built up to roughly the 8' high point, mudded and PVA primer done.  I have only done a marginal job of finishing the joints, it is a shop not a house interior.  I say that and yet I keep touching things up compulsively. 

My plan is to blow fiberglass insulation in behind the drywall before paneling the upper section.  There is a 5.5" gap from the attic so I should be able to blow insulation in from above, but it is far into the eave and will be a challenge to access so I'm hoping to be able to do a better job of filling the exterior walls this way.  I'm not insulating the center dust divider wall, so it's already finished up to the ceiling.

The interior office/cleaner area is shown in the first and last pictures.  I purchased some laminate flooring to put down in there, which should help provide just a little bit of insulation on the floor.  I'm planning on a simple crown molding strip (probably pieces of 1" x 2") as easier than taping the wall/ceiling joint.  As I mentioned in a previous post, once I get the floor and molding done I'll move stuff in and then frame up the door.  The office walls are insulated, I need to insulation the ceiling above yet.  I am thinking I will drywall above that, just as a fire barrier, as sparks falling into joists next to insulation seems to me to be a fire hazard. 

I'm currently thinking I'll use treated 2" x 6" around the base of the walls as a base molding/bumper, and cover it with a couple coats of fire retardant (intumescent) paint, as well as a beveled top edge.


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## woodchucker (Apr 19, 2022)

recommendation, wait for the machines to get in there and floor around them. Also wait a while to make sure you like where the machines are before doing the floor. It's funny how once you start using things you decide that it's not what you want as far as work flow.


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## rabler (Apr 19, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> recommendation, wait for the machines to get in there and floor around them. Also wait a while to make sure you like where the machines are before doing the floor. It's funny how once you start using things you decide that it's not what you want as far as work flow.


I'm only flooring the office, roughly 9'x13'.  Only thing of substance that will go in there will be the 3'x4' surface plate.  Getting the surface plate in there is why I'm holding off on framing the door.  Otherwise a desk and a workbench, a wall mounted rack for a server and switch, and room for a future toolchest.


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## 7milesup (Apr 19, 2022)

@rabler :  It sounds like you are attempting to do a dense pack in the walls with the blown-in fiberglass?  I would expect that your climate is moderate so the actual insulating value may not be of concern, but blown-in cellulose is a better solution if you are looking for limiting air infiltration and adding decent R-value to the walls.


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## Just for fun (Apr 19, 2022)

Rabler,  Your shop is looking great!


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## rabler (Apr 19, 2022)

7milesup said:


> @rabler :  It sounds like you are attempting to do a dense pack in the walls with the blown-in fiberglass?  I would expect that your climate is moderate so the actual insulating value may not be of concern, but blown-in cellulose is a better solution if you are looking for limiting air infiltration and adding decent R-value to the walls.


I thought about cellulose, as it is a bit cheaper.  Did a lot of back and forth on this one.
The building is covered with seem-taped styrofoam panels under the metal, so air infiltration should be limited by that.
I would get better R-value with cellulose as you point out.  But with 6" (5.5") wall thickness to fill, either one will be decent for shop temperatures in this climate.   I worry a bit more about water wicking and mold with cellulose.  Apparently cellulose is also more likely to settle, leaving a gap at the top of the wall 12' wall.  I may use cellulose above the ceiling.


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## matthewsx (Apr 19, 2022)

Air is an insulator too....









						Air Spaces in Walls -- Myth and Science -- Overview
					

Walls often have air spaces hidden somewhere between the siding on the outside and the drywall on the inside.  Some are accidental -- some on purpose, even code required -- some served a purpose at one time in history but because of the evolution of construction, are no longer useful -- some are...




					joneakes.com


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## matthewsx (Apr 19, 2022)

rabler said:


> Weekly photo update
> 
> Slowly making progress on sheetrock.  I have most of the interior walls built up to roughly the 8' high point, mudded and PVA primer done.  I have only done a marginal job of finishing the joints, it is a shop not a house interior.  I say that and yet I keep touching things up compulsively.
> 
> ...


I remember when you couldn't even do earthwork because of the rain, it's looking awesome now....


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## rabler (Apr 19, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Air is an insulator too....


True. Most home insulation is based on trapping air.  A vacuum would work better but that is a challenge to maintain.


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## 7milesup (Apr 19, 2022)

rabler said:


> I thought about cellulose, as it is a bit cheaper.  Did a lot of back and forth on this one.
> The building is covered with seem-taped styrofoam panels under the metal, so air infiltration should be limited by that.
> I would get better R-value with cellulose as you point out.  But with 6" (5.5") wall thickness to fill, either one will be decent for shop temperatures in this climate.   I worry a bit more about water wicking and mold with cellulose.  Apparently cellulose is also more likely to settle, leaving a gap at the top of the wall 12' wall.  I may use cellulose above the ceiling.


If dense pack cellulose is done according to prescribed procedures, it will not settle at all.  This is due to the blown-in dense pack being denser already than what it could ever settle to.  Mold is caused by improper water vapor (or water itself in extreme situations) mitigation/elimination.  Finding an installer to do it correctly is another matter.  In my previous house, I utilized dense pack in the walls and blown-in cellulose above the ceiling with excellent results.  In the current house that I am in I utilized closed cell spray foam for all of my insulation.

Anywho, very nice shop and nice to see the progress!


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## rabler (Apr 20, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> I remember when you couldn't even do earthwork because of the rain, it's looking awesome now....


We've had a lot of rain this spring.  Catch 22. Still can't do the contouring/grading around the finished building, which of course is critical for good drainage.  Once we reach a drier season, well, the contouring won't matter.


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## rabler (Apr 21, 2022)

7milesup said:


> If dense pack cellulose is done according to prescribed procedures, it will not settle at all. This is due to the blown-in dense pack being denser already than what it could ever settle to


I had not realized “dense pack” was a thing, until a bit of google exploration. Looks like a good option. I’m renting a blower and doing this myself and just going with standard blown-in. 

 Dense pack and more insulation would make sense for a home in colder climate.  I’m about as far south as you can get in Indiana, and heat to 55 when I’m in the shop, 45 when I’m not, and cool to around 80 when I’m in there in the summer, so I think I’ll be Ok, global warming/climate changes impact aside.

Interestingly at 40x56x12, I have about the same wall area as ceiling area.  The ceiling insulation is going to be a big factor especially in cooling.


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## rabler (Apr 21, 2022)

First real machine shop item, a 3' x 4' surface plate, moved in:



Admittedly, I moved it in early so I could roll it in before framing up the door.  But it is a start.


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## extropic (Apr 21, 2022)

@rabler 

It's really coming together. Nice surface plate.

I'm wondering, what is the purpose of the open, rectangular, box on the wall? It doesn't look (proportions) like any load center I've ever seen.


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## rabler (Apr 21, 2022)

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> It's really coming together. Nice surface plate.
> 
> I'm wondering, what is the purpose of the open, rectangular, box on the wall? It doesn't look (proportions) like any load center I've ever seen.


Can you believe that surface plate with stand cost me a total of $180, which included a (IIRC) a $40 loading fee?  Auction find.  I suspect I'll pay more to calibrate it than the plate itself cost.

That's three junction boxes stacked with about 2" in between.  I didn't bother drywalling those gaps, so it looks continuous.
I divided the main shop lighting into 3 zones, a long strip nearly full length down the middle of the shop,  two strips closer to the walls in the front half of the shop and 2 strips closer to the walls in the back of the shop.  Each zone is controllable from 3 different locations, the front door, the back door, and just outside the office door.  Those junction boxes are where all of that comes together, one box for each zone.

When I get everything done I'll probably make a wooden cabinet door to cover that up, after using the appropriate metal box covers.


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## rabler (Apr 21, 2022)

Walls are insulated, at least the lower 8'.
Based on @7milesup's comments, I did research and use a "dense pack" technique.  Maybe not up to the quality that an experienced pro would achieve, but done.   My wife stuffed insulation into the chute while I went around on a ladder and blew it in.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I'll drywall the top ~ 4' and fill that from the attic when I blow insulation into the attic.


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## rabler (Apr 25, 2022)

Getting a little closer to done.
Drywall to full height on about half the interior so far.  Did some painting this evening.

Thinking of using 2x6s as a base trim/bumper around the perimeter, covered with metal trim for fire resistance in the welding and grinding areas.



Got the major furniture moved into the office, just have not set up the computer and electronics bench equipment yet.


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## rabler (Apr 27, 2022)

Did a little bit of contouring and landscaping today. The ground is still soft in a lot of spots but trying to get basic drainage away from the building.

We had the tiller on the tractor yesterday and made some flower beds, wife has planted some  lilies, ferns and hostas around the building.


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## rabler (May 6, 2022)

Drywall is up to the ceiling for 3/4 of the shop.  Dense packed insulation to the ceiling within the finished walls.

I am leaving the other quarter unfinished for now.  I want to run plumbing for mini-splits in that section, but the budget says those wait for next month to order.

The work so far means I can now start moving some things in.  Stock racks, bandsaws, welding and the large three phase machines.  The unfinished section will be my primary work area, so still quite a bit of work to do before the shop is fully commissioned.


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## rabler (May 10, 2022)

With a lot of help from fellow HM'er @Dan Krager , the first batch of equipment made it's way into the new shop.
Stock rack, gantry crane, horizontal and vertical bandsaws, and the large surface grinder (project machine).
Welding equipment and smaller stock will probably get moved tomorrow.
Still a long way to go in terms of getting everything set up, but moving a few tools in is significant.


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## woodchucker (May 10, 2022)

way to go @Dan Krager , great HMer helping to move a ton (few tons) of equip.


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## rabler (May 10, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> way to go @Dan Krager , great HMer helping to move a ton (few tons) of equip.


That Thompson surface grinder is a beast.  It doesn't look too big but it weighs nearly 4000 lbs with the table.  Table is still in the other building, even with the 7' drag blade on the back of the tractor as a counter-weight, to move the base alone I had to put the tractor in 4 wheel drive as there wasn't enough weight on the rear tires to get traction.


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## rabler (May 10, 2022)

The plan is to have the gantry crane straddling the stock rack, and build a roller table/conveyor at the same height as the horizontal bandsaw,  and still have enough room left under the gantry (which is a 10' span) so that I can use a simple shop-made dolly/cart to roll new stock under the gantry.  Thus the gantry spans stock rack, roller table, and a bit of space for bringing in new stock.  That way no more manually lifting large stock pieces, I'll be able to use the forks on the tractor to set stuff on the cart, roll it under the gantry, and move it to the stock rack and later to the horizontal saw.  That 10' piece of 3" HRS round, or 10' piece of 2x2 1018 are just getting too heavy to lift.  Unfortunately there is not going to be enough room to use the tractor and forks to directly get to the stock rack and saw.  I'll probably add a 500 lb electric winch/hoist to the gantry as the 2 ton chainfall hoist is a bit slow and clumsy.


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## rabler (May 10, 2022)

How I move big equipment.  One inch at a time.  Several youtube videos have more detail.
This is about 3500 lbs of machine.  I've moved 9000 lb machines the same way.
Use a toe jack to lift it up to get a skate underneath.  I'm using 2 skates and a floor jack in this particular setup.

In the picture here I put a small piece of wood between the skate and the machine.  In the video I didn't have any wood and the metal on metal has a greater tendency for the skate to slide out of place.  While the wood helps, this is going to happen anyway.  So you need to stop to check everything frequently, use the long rod to turn the skates.  The wood 4x4 not only makes a nice pry point, it also acts as a safety catch if the machine come off the skate.  Several 4x4's or 2x4's in strategic spots can be quite helpful in this sense.

Note that at no point does any part of "me" get close to being under the machine.

I'm just using a piece of 1.25" square tube as a pry bar here.  Because it was handy.
It is best to not try to get big bites with the pry bar, as if you go too far underneath you loose leverage and are lifting more than pushing.  Ideally I'd have a piece of scrap wood (2x4, plywood) on the floor where ever I pry against, as the steel on polished concrete is more slippery.  I'm prying against a 4x4 in part of this, but I'm going directly on concrete under the skate.   Often I'll step on the end of a longer piece of scrap when prying on it to help keep it from sliding, if that scrap is long enough that my toes aren't getting near being under the machine.



View attachment IMG_4533-2.mp4


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## woodchucker (May 11, 2022)

Randal,
is there an eyebolt in the top of the Thompson?
Having had my wood lathe fall over multiple times while moving it, I decided that I would always look for lowering the center of gravity.
I did with the wood lathe by changing from lifting from the bottom, to lifting it from the middle. (Pics later )  if you have an eyebolt, it might pay to use your gantry to either lift, or at least follow the Thompson just in case.  While it looks like you got it already moved and no need for further movement, just a thought on preventing a lost leg, or machine.

ps.. my wood lathe was really never designed to be moved.. very narrow footprint , with extremely light base, and heavy top... a Grizzly lathe I got at off of craigs list.

edit: just for clarification this is how I lowered the Center of gravity.
It made the base hang below the lifting point. So even if the base ways little, the lifting point is at the bottom of the bed ways, so it's not 38 inches high from the lift.  And now approx 80 lbs is below the lifting point.


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## rabler (May 11, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Randal,
> is there an eyebolt in the top of the Thompson?
> Having had my wood lathe fall over multiple times while moving it, I decided that I would always look for lowering the center of gravity.
> I did with the wood lathe by changing from lifting from the bottom, to lifting it from the middle. (Pics later )  if you have an eyebolt, it might pay to use your gantry to either lift, or at least follow the Thompson just in case.  While it looks like you got it already moved and no need for further movement, just a thought on preventing a lost leg, or machine.
> ...


Not a bad idea, but no place for an eyebolt, and the gantry isn't really designed to handle much weight on the wheels.  The center of gravity on the Thompson is pretty low, there is a lot of weight in that base as it is multiple compartments all made from cast partitions.  (Coolant reservoir, hydraulic fluid reservoir).  The dust shield over the electric motor for the hydraulic pump is a huge casting in itself, this thing was not built to conserve iron.

Moving the K&T 3K vertical is the one that most worries me.  Too tall to lift from overhead and get through the 10' high doors, so it'll have to be a fork from underneath.  Just have to use lots of straps/chains to secure it to the forklift I guess.  "Forklift" will be a rented 12,000 lb capacity telehandler.  At least with the big Monarch I have enough vertical clearance to lift that from above.  That's not in the budget 'til June.


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## rabler (May 11, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> edit: just for clarification this is how I lowered the Center of gravity.


Jeff,
If I'm understanding what you did, I think _technically_ you improved the stability with a broader base, or to look at it another way you changed the lift point to something higher,  but you didn't actually lower the center of gravity?   I.e, is the weight of the wood base significant compared to the overall weight of the machine?  (Sorry if it sounds like I'm just being nit picky about definitions ...)


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## woodchucker (May 11, 2022)

rabler said:


> Jeff,
> If I'm understanding what you did, I think _technically_ you improved the stability with a broader base, or to look at it another way you changed the lift point to something higher,  but you didn't actually lower the center of gravity?   I.e, is the weight of the wood base significant compared to the overall weight of the machine?  (Sorry if it sounds like I'm just being nit picky about definitions ...)


well true, the cg change would require me adding more weight to the bottom. This is a VIRTUAL lowering, yes I am raising the lift point, which in effect gives it more stability.  It's not totally the wider base. If a human were to lift from the bottom the lathe would still be top heavy and fall over.
by moving the lift point up, it moves some mass under, and some over the lift point.

So I agree, technically it's not the CG changing, but the lift point, and it's acting like I moved the CG.


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## rabler (May 14, 2022)

Starting to look like a welding area. Three 50amp outlets so I don’t have to swap plugs between the two welders and the plasma cutter.  Although I do want to cover the ground level wood with metal trim to reduce fire hazard. I’m also putting drywall on the top of the office on the right for the same reason, good place to use up larger scraps of drywall. Got the wooden workbench and shelf in yesterday.  Moves the pile of tools out of the foot tripping zone and up to someplace easier to see and grab.

Also got another wooden workbench in by the grinding and stock area.  We poured the concrete pad for the exterior compressor blister on Thursday, so I’ll be able to frame the shell for that up soon, and then run air lines (PEX) around.  I’ll have a functional welding/grinding/fab shop in a few more days.  Machining is going to take longer, probably another month.

Today we meet up with some friends for lunch and a few beers, so no progress today.  Priorities after all.


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## matthewsx (May 14, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> way to go @Dan Krager , great HMer helping to move a ton (few tons) of equip.


I've also had fellow members help out moving stuff, this is a great place with knowledgeable and helpful people. I learned quite a bit about moving machinery just by working alongside someone who had "done it before"

John


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## rabler (May 17, 2022)

Something I've dreamed about has come true with the new shop.
Stock rack below the gantry.  Built a roller extension to the horizontal bandsaw today.  Now I can hoist heavier pieces of stock from the rack to the saw without having to kill my back.

Pallet of smaller pieces on the lower left of the first picture will eventually need to go into a rack for smaller pieces (which is next on the fab list).
Then I'm going to build a small cart with wheel big enough to roll in gravel, that I can use to load stock from the forklift onto the cart, roll it under the gantry, and hoist it into the appropriate place on the stock rack.  I'd also like to add a light duty electric hoist.  500 lbs capacity would be enough to lift almost any stock I use, and would be a lot faster than the chain hoist.


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## woodchucker (May 17, 2022)

Nice.
Can you have both, chain and electric.?
Chain is nice for small changes, fine adjustment,low end electric is fast

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## rabler (May 17, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Nice.
> Can you have both, chain and electric.?
> Chain is nice for small changes, fine adjustment,low end electric is fast
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I plan to have both, basically two trolleys on the gantry.  But that means pick one or the other for any given rigging.

Given enough vertical room to stack, you could use both the electric and the chain in the same setup.  (You could even throw a snatch block in there, or other pulley system).  But then the chain is limited to the electric hoists rating (weakest link).  If I'm mostly just going rack to rollers, fine adjustment isn't critical, so I'll stick to separate trolleys, and use the chain for either heavy loads or fine control.


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## Just for fun (May 18, 2022)

That's looking great Randal.


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## extropic (May 18, 2022)

rabler said:


> Something I've dreamed about has come true with the new sho
> Stock rack below the gantry.  Built a roller extension to the horizontal bandsaw today.  Now I can hoist heavier pieces of stock from the rack to the saw without having to kill my back.
> 
> Pallet of smaller pieces on the lower left of the first picture will eventually need to go into a rack for smaller pieces (which is next on the fab list).
> ...



Everything looks great.

Apparently I missed a switch somewhere along the line. I was under the impression that your plan was for two bridge cranes. Now I see that nice looking gantry crane. Does that mean no bridge crane in the welding/grinding end of the shop? Is the gantry a recent purchase or a change of plans, or ???


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## rabler (May 18, 2022)

extropic said:


> Everything looks great.
> 
> Apparently I missed a switch somewhere along the line. I was under the impression that your plan was for two bridge cranes. Now I see that nice looking gantry crane. Does that mean no bridge crane in the welding/grinding end of the shop? Is the gantry a recent purchase or a change of plans, or ???


Correct.  No bridge crane in the front half, at least for the foreseeable future.  Cost being the primary issue.
The gantry is something I built a few years ago, it was in the building with the Monarch 612 lathe.


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## rabler (May 18, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> I've also had fellow members help out moving stuff, this is a great place with knowledgeable and helpful people. I learned quite a bit about moving machinery just by working alongside someone who had "done it before"
> 
> John


We moved several things using my tractor with a loader/forks.
The biggest challenge in such a setup is that the seat is probably 20ft from the tip of the forks, and obscured by the hood when lowered. A spotter can make things go a lot smoother.  But there was plenty of manual work too.


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## rabler (May 18, 2022)

Right now, big thing is I'm waiting on end of the month check to order mini-splits, as the summer weather is starting to get warm.  Got a few things to do while waiting.


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## woodchucker (May 18, 2022)

rabler said:


> Right now, big thing is I'm waiting on end of the month check to order mini-splits, as the summer weather is starting to get warm.  Got a few things to do while waiting.


We are having a full house full of people Saturday to meet my new grandchild, my side and my wife's side have not met the baby yet. My son and DIL are coming down from CT... it's expected to be 92+... I hope the A/C works.


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## rabler (May 21, 2022)

We've had some hot weather here too.  High tomorrow is suppose to only be 68.  We're going to try to blow insulation into the attic tomorrow.  Definitely don't want to be up there on a hot, sunny day.  

Doing the math I have enough insulation (around 18 bags) for somewhere around R-13 in the attic if I cover the whole thing with what I have.  I'd really like to get up over R-20, but that means buying more insulation, I think we'll be doing good to get the 18 bags done tomorrow.    I'm torn between covering 1/2 the attic to the depth I want, or covering the whole attic to 1/2 the depth.  I guess I'll do the later, as covering only 1/2 the attic will probably give very little benefit especially with a metal ceiling.


woodchucker said:


> ... it's expected to be 92+...


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## BGHansen (May 21, 2022)

rabler said:


> We've had some hot weather here too.  High tomorrow is suppose to only be 68.  We're going to try to blow insulation into the attic tomorrow.  Definitely don't want to be up there on a hot, sunny day.
> 
> Doing the math I have enough insulation (around 18 bags) for somewhere around R-13 in the attic if I cover the whole thing with what I have.  I'd really like to get up over R-20, but that means buying more insulation, I think we'll be doing good to get the 18 bags done tomorrow.    I'm torn between covering 1/2 the attic to the depth I want, or covering the whole attic to 1/2 the depth.  I guess I'll do the later, as covering only 1/2 the attic will probably give very little benefit especially with a metal ceiling.


Tough decision with good arguments either way.  Pro for spreading out what you have is at least there's something up there in case you don't get to a second "dose" soon.  

On the other hand, to go from R-13 up to R-20 you're going to be walking over where you've already insulated.  It'd be easier to blow to R-20 and cover what you can with the 18 bags.  Then before the fall hopefully the budget allows what's needed to finish the job at R-20.

Bruce


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## extropic (May 21, 2022)

How deep is R20 and what lumber size and spacing are the joists?
Cellulose or fiberglass in the attic?

Either way, R20 is less deep than a 2x8.

What does it cost to rent the blower?

One thing about going full depth is it's easy to see what's finished.

Probably 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

Do you have ant active ventilators in the attic space? like exhaust fans or turbine?


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## rabler (May 21, 2022)

@BGHansen, @extropic

Here's the table off one of the bags.  I was pulling some of the numbers out of the air before as I was to lazy to walk out to the shop and review my figures, especially as it was the middle of a downpour.



I have 18 bags (plus a partial).   The blower @ Menards is $25 for the first 4 hours and $5/hr for anything more.  Obviously it is not worth keeping it overnight as the $5/hr accumulates.  The darn thing weighs probably 300 lbs, and comes with two separate extension cords to plug in as it needs two separate 120V circuits.  I assume the blower motor is on circuit and the agitator/feed motor is another.  Usually we pick it up before lunch, return it before dinner, paying for roughly 6 hours, by which point my wife and I are both exhausted.  It is definitely a two person operation as one person stuffs insulation into the blower and the other person works the hose.  There is a wired remote control for the agitator for use by the hose operator, more critical when going between wall bays.

The joists are 2x6's. 2200 sq ft of ceiling.  So 18 bags is going to give somewhere between R-13 and R-19, and probably right about 5.5" or so that a 2x6's actual height. So any boards set out to make a second pass would not really disturb a first pass.  BUT, what I have left is fiberglass.  IIRC you can blow fiberglass on top of cellulose but vice versa is not ideal as the cellulose is heavier and will compress the fiberglass more.  So if I spread out fiberglass over the whole attic then I'd be better topping it with more fiberglass.  Never the less I'm leaning toward a thinner coat across the whole ceiling, as that would make it possible to wait until next fall, more favorable temps in the attic plus several competing budget items, for finishing up.    I'd like to get up to R-30 @ 10" of insulation.

At this point there is not attic ventilation of any type, which obviously needs to be addressed.  (The base assumption on these pole barns is no ceiling).    I'm planning on putting 2'x4' louvered vents in either end.    Passive but should be good start.  There is 1" of styrofoam under the roof.


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## extropic (May 21, 2022)

rabler said:


> Never the less I'm leaning toward a thinner coat across the whole ceiling, as that would make it possible to wait until next fall, more favorable temps in the attic plus several competing budget items, for finishing up.



That sentence sums it up and makes prefect sense to me.

Until fall, you can keep an eye out for a monster sale on insulation. 

When I asked about the blower, I had a big rental yard (like Sunbelt) in mind. I think you get some free hours (days?) if rented over a weekend.
I guess Menards doesn't play that way. LOL


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## rabler (May 21, 2022)

extropic said:


> That sentence sums it up and makes prefect sense to me.
> 
> Until fall, you can keep an eye out for a monster sale on insulation.
> 
> ...


Menards is 15 minutes and 5 miles away.  I'd much prefer Lowe's or Home Depot.  I believe Lowe's throws in a days rental free for 20 bags purchased or something like that.  And Menards has won the game of obscure store organization, the only logic to it is to make the customer walk through all of the store for every visit.  But anything else, including bigger rental places, is an hours drive each direction.


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## rabler (May 21, 2022)

On another note,
Made a stock rack for the small odds and ends.  The 7 shelves are each 2' x 1'.  A little hard to see; the left side behind the horizontal bandsaw has framing for storing 3' or longer pieces vertically.  The 5 gallon pail is my scrap bucket.




And a stock cart with several key features.  4' long by 20" wide.
The 6" wide tread on the tires will make rolling it through the gravel driveway feasible.  Which is why those tires are tucked under, so that the weight sits more on them.   I often get full 20' pieces of various stuff, easy enough to get it delivered if you pay for pieces of that size, and I can unload it with the fork attachment on the tractor loader.    But driving 20' long stock through a 10' door is a problem.  I can roll this just outside the door and  set stock on the uprights directly using the fork attachment, then roll this under the gantry to hoist stuff up onto the larger horizontal stock rack shown a few posts back.  And it is low enough to store under one of the benches or under the bandsaw conveyor.

Needs a few gussets, some work on the axle, and paint, but is coming together nicely.


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## rabler (May 22, 2022)




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## rabler (May 25, 2022)

Well, I'm at a painful point.  Some stuff has been moved, mostly welding and stock.  Everything else is in the other building.  It is raining today, and I regraded the entrance driveway yesterday, it is just muck and soup in the rain.  I gave up running between buildings, and decided it was just not a shop day.

Let me know if anyone needs rain, I'd be happy to send a week's worth their way.

On a brighter note, it is noticeably cooler in the new shop with the attic insulated.  This is without running any sort of AC, just the cooler concrete slab.


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## rabler (May 27, 2022)

We've had nearly 2" of rain in the last 2 days, after a lot of rain in the previous week.  Things are just turning muddy.
Unfortunately the only way to really fix this mess is to wait for the ground to dry out, then spread 6" of gravel, ideally over geotextile cloth.  You can pour yards of gravel into the wet clay and it'll just ooze through it and you still have a mess.



This makes it a challenge to get into the shop, even to walk in.  And I'm sort of in that bad spot where things are half moved out of the old shop so it is getting harder to to any machining work (Ok, it's play) until things settle out.  It makes me sorry for someone like Keith Fenner, who does this work for a living and has to move their shop.

I did buy 40 bags of concrete today.  Need to pour several small pads.  And the order went in for the two mini-split systems.


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## woodchucker (May 27, 2022)

rabler said:


> We've had nearly 2" of rain in the last 2 days, after a lot of rain in the previous week.  Things are just turning muddy.
> Unfortunately the only way to really fix this mess is to wait for the ground to dry out, then spread 6" of gravel, ideally over geotextile cloth.  You can pour yards of gravel into the wet clay and it'll just ooze through it and you still have a mess.
> View attachment 408134


it looks like you are on the high ground and it's slopes down to the building.
if you can't change that, can you at least put a swale there so the water is sent to the right and down hill.


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## rabler (May 27, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> it looks like you are on the high ground and it's slopes down to the building.
> if you can't change that, can you at least put a swale there so the water is sent to the right and down hill.


Jeff,
Yes, our whole lot is on a pretty consistent grade.  I knew drainage was going to be a issue.   There are pretty decent ditches on either side of the building, and also buried french drains.  The challenge is that it needs to dry out to do effective grading, that hasn't happened yet (since the building was finished).  Farmers are also having trouble getting crops in.

  Diverting the water left/right is the plan.  I'm going to pour a 2' apron in front of the drive-in door slopping away from the door, then build up a crown to the roadway with gravel.  In between downpours yesterday I did take the excavator and do some grading to that effect.  But of course that also makes everything a muddier mess.


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## rabler (Jun 7, 2022)

I've had a couple of rough weeks, I was suppose to go down to Atlanta just before Memorial day weekend for the annual meeting of an educational non-profit I started a few years ago, but some challenges got in the way of that.  Then over the weekend my father, in his 80's, flipped his BobCat on a steep hill and was trapped for quite a while before the paramedics could get him out, as the hill was too steep to walk up/down.  He suffered some pretty good injuries but nothing permanent.  The BobCat, a fancy setup that is only a year old, may need a new engine as it was running when it flipped.  Then a couple days later one of our riding horses managed to completely break his jaw and we had to put him down.  That precipitated some drama with my wife's niece who occasionally had helped with the horses.  So I've been lying low for a while and just keeping busy.  But another photo-bomb update is overdue, so here are a bunch of works in progress.

A small project was to brace up my small crane.  I added the inside braces going vertically between the top and wheels to stiffen the legs.   I also added the plate to the top on both sides to stiffen that a bit.  Would have been better to extend the plate full length of the top but the scrap bin didn't have anything longer.  Note that the electric hoist is rated for 400lbs, this is not a heavy lifter.  Now it is wide enough to span a pallet, which is helpful as I have a 350 lb chuck sitting on a pallet.  Necessity drives these little projects.



As you can see behind the little hoist is a pallet of concrete pre-mix bags.  I've been working on the back (north) side of the building.  Poured a 3' x 6' extension and have been working on closing that in with the matching wainscot theme.  That'll house the air compressor.  Got a 30A sub-panel out there, and am working on a relay panel rigged to the shop lights so the air compressor runs when the lights are on only.  Actually I'm going to rig a switch inside the back door that has a "auto-off-on", so that in auto it tracks the lights.  Note "on" and "auto" just enable power to the compressor, obviously it still has the air pressure switch too.  I've also ordered two mini-splits, 9000 BTU for the office and 24000 BTU for the general shop.  Haven't really needed cooling yet even with the outdoor temp going to the mid 80's, the blown-in attic insulation has made quite a bit of difference.  But you can see the two small pads for the outdoor sections and a small outdoor rated breaker box/disconnect.



On the driveway entrance to the shop I did get enough of a dry spell to get some grading done and add gravel.  I'm hoping to give it a few rain/dry cycles for the gravel and underlying soil to settle some before putting too much load on it, but that is coming early next month when I rent a 12k telehandler to move the bigger machinery in.  Dug up part of the yard to cut a diversion ditch, you can sort of see it in the left lower corner of the 2nd pic below.  Threw out some grass seed, hopefully with all the rain we've been getting it'll grow in soon.




I did get the last of the odds and ends moved onto the stock rack.  Nice to have that reasonably organized.



The back half of the shop is still a jumble of stuff.   The 10EE Monarch is there, the wheelbarrow is full of electrical odds and ends, some scrap metal, etc.  The upper part of the wall is still unfinished, waiting for the mini-split installation to run the lines to the office.  If you look closely amongst the clutter you'll see a few kittens.



Moving the large machines into the back half at the beginning of next month will also mean moving the huge granite table in.  I had found a cheap CMM table that a nearby (Lousiville, KY suburb) machinery dealer was selling on ebay.  I made him a low-ball offer and he accepted.  That was last fall, but I have a 55" x 84" x 11" granite table that will go in the back part of the shop.  I'd like to eventually get it certified and be able to use it as a reference surface for various rebuilding projects.  Anyhow, that's something like 7000 lbs of granite.  It is currently still sitting on the flat-bed trailer, where it spent the winter, but it will get moved in next month along with the big machines.  It did not come with a stand or any sort of support so I have been working on building something suitable.  I want to be able to move it about the shop a bit without renting a suitable forklift/telehandler every time (something that heavy isn't going to move that often), so I've been working on building a three legged stand, which is sitting upside down on top my two welding tables in the third pic below.






I am using pallet fork wheels, rated at 5000lbs for a pair, and welded up some holders.  Then have cut and tacked up the rest of the supports.  Basically a tricycle affair, rear wheels 60" apart, front (steering) wheel 40" forward of that.  Need to finish welding that up, then clean it up and paint it yet..  Also need to decide between bronze and nylon for the bearing for the pivoting wheel. But it should give me the ability to move the table (although not casually!), and have something for it to sit on.  The legs are not spaced ideally for minimizing the stress in the table, but I was focusing a bit more on overall stability than deviation.

I've also been putting up more shelves and bringing a few more odds and ends into the shop, but I'm not willing to put up pictures of even more clutter


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## extropic (Jun 7, 2022)

@rabler 

May was not a great month for you but you've made nice progress on the shop.

Glad to hear your Dad's injuries aren't permanent.

Not to minimize the Dad thing, but I'm particularly curious how a horse goes about breaking it's own jaw. Can you share some details?

Regarding the granite/stand: IIRC, there is a granite that, at one time, you intended to put inside the office. Is the new stand for that granite or a different one?


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## woodchucker (Jun 7, 2022)

Across the road, they had to put down their horse because it broke it's shoulder in multiple spots. It apparently hit the fence post. No one was really sure how it happened, but that's what they surmised. They lost 2 horses in a month... they were devastated.  They are both gone now, RIP. lovely people.


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## woodchucker (Jun 7, 2022)

Looks like a new litter of cats, I assume they will be your mousers? Man you are tall Randall, that 10ee is a little too tall for me ... is that up on the frame to work on the bottom?


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## tjb (Jun 7, 2022)

Horses are trigger quick and are motivated by fear.  I've seen a horse trying to dodge some perceived demon do a right angle spin faster than a blink and slam its head right into a barn post.  I've never had one break a jaw, but that horse was pretty dazed for a few minutes.  I had to put down my last two mares not too long ago.  The older one was thirty; I got her when she was two.  The other was pushing thirty; got her when she was four.  Sorry about your loss, Randal.  I've owned and trained many horses over the years, but those two were like family.  Both are buried on the farm.

And, of course, the horse trauma pales into insignificance compared to what could have been a far worse tragedy with your father.  Being out a Bobcat engine is a pretty cheap price to pay compared to what it could have been.  Glad his injuries are not life-altering.

And if you end up coming to Atlanta, send me a P-M.  There are a handful of us down in this area.  Maybe some of us could meet face-to-face.

Regards


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## rabler (Jun 7, 2022)

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> May was not a great month for you but you've made nice progress on the shop.
> 
> ...


Thanks.  Just talked to my father.  He’s still stiff and sore but has his mental faculties back, as well as his enthusiasm.  The Bobcat does need a new engine. 

May wasn’t bad until the last few days, just a lot all at once.

I can only speculate on the horse’s jaw.  One of the other horses got out which generally gets them a bit more agitated, but more often in a more playful way than aggressive. There was still a fence line between them. My guess is it, like Jeff’s neighbor, involved a fence post.  He was our favorite riding horse unfortunately.  He would stop moving if the rider wasn’t well balanced (aka unstable and likely to fall).  Great horse with kids.  His sire lived to be 36, this one was 21.

The granite plate in the office is 3’ x 4’, this is a different one.  At a bit over 84“ x 55” (it was a Zeiss? CMM so metric), this would not fit in the office.  I’m obviously overly impressed by big heavy things.


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## rabler (Jun 7, 2022)

tjb said:


> Horses are trigger quick and are motivated by fear.  I've seen a horse trying to dodge some perceived demon do a right angle spin faster than a blink and slam its head right into a barn post.  I've never had one break a jaw, but that horse was pretty dazed for a few minutes.  I had to put down my last two mares not too long ago.  The older one was thirty; I got her when she was two.  The other was pushing thirty; got her when she was four.  Sorry about your loss, Randal.  I've owned and trained many horses over the years, but those two were like family.  Both are buried on the farm.
> 
> And, of course, the horse trauma pales into insignificance compared to what could have been a far worse tragedy with your father.  Being out a Bobcat engine is a pretty cheap price to pay compared to what it could have been.  Glad his injuries are not life-altering.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your mares.  We had just decided we aren’t going to do any more breeding going forward.

I was out helping geld several young untrained (as in never haltered) cutting horse stallions near Savannah a few years back. Talk about scary fast reactions and spooky …

I’ll keep that in mind as far if I make it down to Georgia.


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## rabler (Jun 7, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Looks like a new litter of cats, I assume they will be your mousers? Man you are tall Randall, that 10ee is a little too tall for me ... is that up on the frame to work on the bottom?


Mousers, but also trying to socialize them so we can catch them at 5 months to be fixed.  The stray cat population at the barns is a challenge to stay ahead of.

Yes, I built a frame to elevate the 10EE to work on it.  Still need to decide on how  I will proceed on that, but I can put that off for quite a while as getting the new shop in order is going to take a while yet.

I use to joke with my wife about having “big building envy”.  Now that I’m trying to organize things as I move stuff in, I’m worried the building size will exceed my brain’s capacity to remember where things should be.


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## Papa Charlie (Jun 8, 2022)

Very sorry to hear of your fathers accident. I will pray for a quick and complete recovery.

Horses can get into things that just make you shake your head. I have had my fair share of them over the years. We went the worst way, all Morgan show horses. Never again. I have seen horses look act like a DUI driver and ram into objects at a full gallop when in the flight mode. I have also seen horses hurt by a kick from another horse. Hard to say. Sorry for the loss. Our animals have always been like our children as we don't have any of our own. So I understand how you may feel. 

The shop is looking really good. A lot of work to build, outfit and stock, but will be well worth it when it is finished. That is if there is such a thing in our world. LOL

Prayers and good wishes to you and the family.


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## rabler (Jun 8, 2022)

@Papa Charlie
Your thoughts and prayers are very much appreciated.  Thank you for the kind reply.


Papa Charlie said:


> Sorry for the loss. Our animals have always been like our children as we don't have any of our own. So I understand how you may feel.


Same here, no two legged children, just four legged ones.


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## Just for fun (Jun 8, 2022)

Randle,  Sorry to read about all the bad stuff.   Glad your dad is doing well, bummer about the BobCat but it will live again. 

I'm really sorry about your horse.  Man that's got to be tough. 

Tim


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## rabler (Jun 10, 2022)

Stand for ridiculously large granite table, done.


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## Papa Charlie (Jun 11, 2022)

Nice work, that should support it very well. With the wheels fixed, how will you steer it?


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## rabler (Jun 11, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Nice work, that should support it very well. With the wheels fixed, how will you steer it?


It is not obvious from the picture, but the front wheel pivots on a black nylon bearing.  I will need to add some sort of easy way to attach a steering lever, something like an airplane towbar.  I don’t foresee moving this very often, it is still going to be a challenge even with the rollers.


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## rabler (Jun 11, 2022)

Round black nylon puck is a little easier to see here.  Rings around the outside of the nylon are from where the drill bit grabbed and it spun in the lathe chuck.  1” diameter center stub shaft from the leg through the caster.



My biggest concern with the three legged stand is the granite tipping. Worst case is that  I have a little more than 13” from the center mass of the table to the perimeter of the support triangle in the direction of the front corners of the table.  The corners are a fraction over 50” from center.  So for a 7000lb slab it would take a bit over 2400lbs at the corner to tip it.  That is safe enough for human weight ranges to not tip it, assuming I did not mess up my geometry and physics.


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## Papa Charlie (Jun 11, 2022)

rabler said:


> Round black nylon puck is a little easier to see here.  Rings around the outside of the nylon are from where the drill bit grabbed and it spun in the lathe chuck.  1” diameter center stub shaft from the leg through the caster.
> View attachment 409765
> 
> 
> My biggest concern with the three legged stand is the granite tipping. Worst case is that  I have a little more than 13” from the center mass of the table to the perimeter of the support triangle in the direction of the front corners of the table.  The corners are a fraction over 50” from center.  So for a 7000lb slab it would take a bit over 2400lbs at the corner to tip it.  That is safe enough for human weight ranges to not tip it, assuming I did not mess up my geometry and physics.


Should have known that you had already thought of that. Couldn't see it in the original image until you provided the close up. Nicely done. The airplane tug format will allow you to steer that very easily. Although you may want to rig it with a connection to your three point or a ball if you get a forklift. 

I just remembered seeing the granite slab that you purchased way back when. That is a huge slab. Would be a great item to have in the shop.


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## woodchucker (Jun 11, 2022)

rabler said:


> It is not obvious from the picture, but the front wheel pivots on a black nylon bearing.  I will need to add some sort of easy way to attach a steering lever, something like an airplane towbar.  I don’t foresee moving this very often, it is still going to be a challenge even with the rollers.


Randal, can you add levelling feet that screw down?  I find the polyurethane wheels flatten and break apart  over time.   Mine are not of the same quality that yours are at, but when you want to move it is not the time to find out the poly  broke down.  Nice design.


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## rabler (Jun 11, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Randal, can you add levelling feet that screw down?  I find the polyurethane wheels flatten and break apart  over time.   Mine are not of the same quality that yours are at, but when you want to move it is not the time to find out the poly  broke down.  Nice design.


Good question, I'll have to think about that.


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## woodchucker (Jun 11, 2022)

rabler said:


> Good question, I'll have to think about that.


stick a jack under lift it and put blocks under? simple just something to take the weight off them, since it's a tripod it's not going to be twisting .


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## rabler (Jun 11, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> Should have known that you had already thought of that. Couldn't see it in the original image until you provided the close up. Nicely done. The airplane tug format will allow you to steer that very easily. Although you may want to rig it with a connection to your three point or a ball if you get a forklift.


That's an interesting thought.  I'd figured a heavy rope or chain around one of the legs, attached to the loader bucket was the likely mechanism, as the tractor is big enough to not be generally maneuverable around the shop.  That's how I've moved the big lathe and mill, I can then move them somewhat perpendicular to the tractor front/back axis by turning the front wheels (generally in 4 wheel drive).


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## rabler (Jun 11, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> stick a jack under lift it and put blocks under? simple just something to take the weight off them, since it's a tripod it's not going to be twisting .


Yeah, 3 pieces cut off of any of the misc 6"x6" scraps would do.  Or I could weld some large nuts on the side of the cross bracess, with 1" all-thread and some feet.  Unfortunately that would only work inboard of the wheels, which would reduce stability (tipping of the slab).  If I really want to worry about that, the best approach would be to use the jack screws to take up some but not all of the weight.


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## rabler (Jun 11, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> I just remembered seeing the granite slab that you purchased way back when. That is a huge slab. Would be a great item to have in the shop.


Found the picture. That piece of granite is still sitting on that trailer, could have used the blue gantry to lift it off but have not needed the trailer.  Planning on renting a forklift/telehandler next month as will need the trailer to pick up hay.

 It will be interesting to see what it would cost to calibrate that slab


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## extropic (Jun 11, 2022)

rabler said:


> Found the picture.  It will be interesting to see what it would cost to calibrate
> View attachment 409827




I've been watching (as usual) wondering if your intent was to use the granite as a known precision (calibrated) reference surface or not.

The following quote is from Starrett (seems like a reliable source).

"12) *How should my surface plate be supported? Does it need to be level?*

A) A surface plate should be supported at 3 points, ideally located 20% of the length in from the ends of the plate. Two supports should be located 20% of the width in from the long sides, and the remaining support should be centered. Only 3 points can rest solidly on anything but a precision surface.

The plate should be supported at these points during production, and it should be supported only at these three points while in use. Attempting to support the plate at more than three points will cause the plate to receive its support from various combinations of three points, which will not be the same 3 points on which it was supported during production. This will introduce errors as the plate deflects to conform to the new support arrangement. All Tru-Stone steel stands have support beams designed to line up with the proper support points.

If the plate is properly supported, precise leveling is only necessary if your application calls for it. Leveling is not necessary to maintain the accuracy of a properly supported plate.

*Learn more by calling us at (800) 959-0517."











						Precision Granite FAQs
					






					www.starrett.com
				



*
If you intend to have it calibrated (and remain calibrated), my recommendation is to rework the stand to support the granite as Starrett defines.

YMMV

Regarding calibration, I've read of others having a sort of "group buy" situation where geography convenient others bring their plates (with stands as required) to a host location and a Cal service is scheduled in to take care of many in one location. I always liked the idea, for us hobbyists.

Again, YMMV


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## rabler (Jun 11, 2022)

extropic said:


> I've been watching (as usual) wondering if your intent was to use the granite as a known precision (calibrated) reference surface or not.


I would like to do so. It was originally a CMM table, so it should be pretty flat.  If I do get it calibrated, grade B should suffice, it will not be in a highly temperature controlled environment anyhow.


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## rabler (Jun 13, 2022)

It's been miserably hot here today, 97 today and expected to be hotter the next 3 days.  I'm waiting impatiently for my mini-splits to arrive.  Ordered and payed for, vendor shows them as "ready to ship" but they've shown that way since middle of last week.  Sent them an email today to see what's happening.

I'm planning on renting a 12,000lb capacity telehandler at the end of the month.  Will be using that to move the Monarch 612-2516 lathe, the K&T 3K vertical mill, and the granite table into the new shop.  So I'm trying to prep all the little things to go with all of that moving.  I have a 18" cushman 4-jaw chuck for the Monarch, as well as a 12" three jaw.  I suspect at some point I'll end up with another chuck or two.  But the Cushman weighs 260 lbs according to the shipping info so it is definitely NOT a chuck you're going to move by hand.  I wanted to get it off of the pallet it has been sitting on, as that pallet was blocking the path between where the lathe will sit and the door.  Of course I could just move the pallet, but where is the fun in that?  Time to make something!  So today's project, including a run to Menard's for the casters, was to make a chuck rack:



That's the 18" cushman 4 jaw.  Base is 12" wide x 36" long.  I wanted the slant rails 12" apart (outside measure) on the back (left) side.  The other set of slant rails (over the pivoting casters) are 9" apart (outside measure) to hold smaller chucks, down to 10" diameter. Decided to put the extended tabs on to hold the rear wheels to give it a little wider stance for stability.    It should hold 4 chucks when done.  Needs another set of stubs to hold another chuck above the cushman, and some cleanup and paint.  Probably the one questionable design issue is that if you put only one chuck on the lower front (over the narrower pivoting casters), it could tip if there is no other weight on it.


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## extropic (Jun 13, 2022)

@rabler 

Nice rack. Just add shelves, inside the triangle, to hold short raw stock drops. The unit will have a very low CG in no time.


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## rabler (Jun 13, 2022)

@extropic 
Great idea.  If not drops, other lathe accessories.


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## rabler (Jun 16, 2022)

Most of this week has had high temps in the 90's, so work in the new shop has been slim.  Tracking shows the mini-splits should arrive next Monday, so hopefully by the end of next week there will be AC in the shop.

I did pull the RPC out of the barn shop this week.  And I bought a real safety on/off switch to use on the line into the RPC, rather than just the breaker in the main circuit breaker panel.  Yeah, it is a three pole switch and I'll only use 2, but the only 2 pole switches of adequate capacity were more expensive than this one.  It is a 200A disconnect which is larger than I'll need, but that isn't a safety issue and again, best cost/availability.



The RPC is a 20HP, using the original motor out of the Monarch 612, which now has a 10HP motor.  The idler will most likely end up in the blister/room that houses the air compressor.  Rightmost is a Siemens breaker panel, holds 4 three phase breaker.  This will all need to get hooked up with conduit and appropriate wire.  Then run more conduit on the surface of the walls to machine locations.  For single phase 120V and 240V circuits I went with the idea of running plenty of outlets.  For the few and much less portable three phase machines, it'll be specific connections to those machines.


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## rabler (Jun 21, 2022)

Still working on the 3Φ electrical install, and the air compressor.  The good news is the mini-splits arrived yesterday afternoon, and as of now I have the 24000 btu (2 ton) general shop unit working.  That's not a lot of cooling for 2200 square feet, but it quickly takes the edge off the temp in there.  Installing the smaller 9000 unit for the office is less critical so it will get done at a more leisurely pace.


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## woodchucker (Jun 21, 2022)

rabler said:


> Still working on the 3phase electrical install, and the air compressor.  The good news is the mini-splits arrived yesterday afternoon, and as of now I have the 24000 btu (2 ton) general shop unit working.  That's not a lot of cooling for 2200 square feet, but it quickly takes the edge off the temp in there.  Installing the smaller 9000 unit for the office is less critical so it will get done at a more leisurely pace.


Edge and probably humidity. It may not get you cool, but if the humidity drops, that's a big PLUS in my book. I don't mind dry heat. I hate when I am stuck to my clothes and they are stuck to me. I can work all day in dry heat..  not long in wet heat... I'm like the witch... I'm MELTING.


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## rabler (Jun 21, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Edge and probably humidity. It may not get you cool, but if the humidity drops, that's a big PLUS in my book. I don't mind dry heat. I hate when I am stuck to my clothes and they are stuck to me. I can work all day in dry heat..  not long in wet heat... I'm like the witch... I'm MELTING.


I've been running a small dehumidifier in there, which certainly helps but it isn't really big enough to make a large change in the humidity.  Plus I keep forgetting to empty the bucket.  That and a fan have enough to keep it where I can tolerate working out there if it isn't too physical.  But if I start going up and down ladders, the heat has wiped me out ...


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## woodchucker (Jun 21, 2022)

rabler said:


> I've been running a small dehumidifier in there, which certainly helps but it isn't really big enough to make a large change in the humidity.  Plus I keep forgetting to empty the bucket.


doh


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## rabler (Jun 29, 2022)

The mini-split for the bulk of the shop is in and running.  The mini-split for the office still needs to be hooked up to the compressor outside.   They do make compressors that will handle multiple indoor units.  But I'm using a 24000 BTU for the main and 9000 BTU for the office.  To run a 24000 BTU unit on a multi-unit compressor would actually require a compressor big enough to handle 3 indoor units, which would then cost as much as the separate compressors.  This way with completely independent units there is some redundancy, and slightly better efficiency.  For the $33 more, I purchased the Wifi control module for the main shop unit.  Which means I can pre-cool the shop without going out there using my iPhone, or perhaps more importantly, turn the AC off at night from the house if I forgot to turn it off before leaving the shop. 








I have a 12000lb capacity telehandler reserved for rental tomorrow.   That should allow me to move the K&T Milwaukee 3K and the Monarch 612, as well as get the granite block onto the stand, with help from @Dan Krager .  Earlier today I moved the 3K into position to pick it up, using three skates, a toe jack, and my tractor.  Painfully slow as I get off the tractor every foot or so of movement and check everything, here are two pictures taken one step apart.  Unfortunately I didn't get quite the same spot to take both photos.

A 12k telehandler weighs about 34000 lbs.  Not cheap to rent, especially when you add delivery/pick up.   Enough that I did think about buying a 14k tilt deck trailer.  But the cost of that trailer long term might be problematic.


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## NCjeeper (Jun 29, 2022)

Man that mill is sexy.


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## rabler (Jun 29, 2022)

NCjeeper said:


> Man that mill is sexy.


You should see it spinning a 6" face mill through a block of steel ...


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## extropic (Jun 29, 2022)

Fantastic progress Randal. A picture of the office reminded me that you have a window facing the rollup door/man door wall. Nice feature.

That K&T looks like it could be a concept model for the next Transformer superhero. LOL


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## rabler (Jun 29, 2022)

extropic said:


> Fantastic progress Randal. A picture of the office reminded me that you have a window facing the rollup door/man door wall. Nice feature.
> 
> That K&T looks like it could be a concept model for the next Transformer superhero. LOL


Thanks Ray.  The exterior window over the desk also overlooks the driveway so I can see if someone pulls up (typically UPS delivery).  
There's probably a fun CAD/machine project in there for the right person: making a K&T transformer model.


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## woodchucker (Jun 29, 2022)

rabler said:


> A 12k telehandler weighs about 34000 lbs.  Not cheap to rent, especially when you add delivery/pick up.   Enough that I did think about buying a 14k tilt deck trailer.  But the cost of that trailer long term might be problematic.


LOL.. I still can't figure out what you plan on doing with all that BIG equip. But can you adopt me?

BTW, would it be faster and easier to use a come a long to pull it, rather than getting on and off? Just attach it to the JD.


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## rabler (Jun 29, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> BTW, would it be faster and easier to use a come a long to pull it, rather than getting on and off? Just attach it to the JD.


Probably 6 one way, 1/2 dozen the other.  I prefer to keep the tow rope low for stability, bending over to work a come-a-long would be tedious.  And I'd still need to move the tractor some, as I was moving the mill in an arc to turn it sideways as it handles better from the side with a forklift.


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## rabler (Jun 30, 2022)

Long day.  Thankfully done, with a big thanks to @Dan Krager.  Big machines are in the new shop.   That telehandler barely fit in there.   Had the boom extended about 6 feet at one point with mill and it started to tip forward, fortunately I had the load just inches off the ground, as I knew I was pushing my luck.

 Not in their exact locations yet but that will be some adjusting with skates and the tractor.


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## extropic (Jun 30, 2022)

Big job.

Do I see four different cats in those pictures? Glad they stayed clear of danger.


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## woodchucker (Jun 30, 2022)

looks like you lost an axle on the granite table... glad it worked out.


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## rabler (Jun 30, 2022)

extropic said:


> Big job.
> 
> Do I see four different cats in those pictures? Glad they stayed clear of danger.


There are 5 of them (don't know if all 5 made the pictures, two of them are hard to tell apart).  They hid in the office any time the engine on the telehandler was running.  They got lots of attention when we took breaks from the heat.


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## rabler (Jun 30, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> looks like you lost an axle on the granite table... glad it worked out.


The sad truth is I never got around to getting it done, it needs a new bushing between the pallet wheel and the carrier, one of the bushings was a few thou too small ID.

Having working mini-splits was the right answer though, the heat was a bit rough today.


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## extropic (Jun 30, 2022)

rabler said:


> <snip   They hid in the office any time the engine on the telehandler was running.  snip>


 Smart cats. Conserving their 'lives' count.


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## woodchucker (Jun 30, 2022)

extropic said:


> Big job.
> 
> Do I see four different cats in those pictures? Glad they stayed clear of danger.


little mousers.. very little... or very big machines...
they don't look like they have grown much since last time I saw them in pics a month or 2 ago... must not be many mice around.


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## rabler (Jun 30, 2022)

The telehandler rental will cost about $1500 for a day with the delivery on a semi.  Not cheap proposition, but this stuff doesn't move itself.  They are kind of interesting to drive.  Three steering modes, normal front wheel steering, 4 wheel steering, and side shift steering.  We made use of all of those to work our way into just the right spot.   We started at about 8am, and finished around 3pm, with a short break for lunch on the porch.  Lots of evaluation, hook things up, test lift, nope, set it down and revise.  Plenty of places where clearances were down to less than a foot.  At one point I had one tire of the telehandler past the office door threshold.


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## rabler (Jun 30, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> they don't look like they have grown much since last time I saw them in pics a month or 2 ago...


They no longer fit in the palm of my hand.  Just not much for scale.


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## woodchucker (Jun 30, 2022)

rabler said:


> The telehandler rental will cost about $1500 for a day with the delivery on a semi.  Not cheap proposition, but this stuff doesn't move itself.  They are kind of interesting to drive.  Three steering modes, normal front wheel steering, 4 wheel steering, and side shift steering.  We made use of all of those to work our way into just the right spot.   We started at about 8am, and finished around 3pm, with a short break for lunch on the porch.  Lots of evaluation, hook things up, test lift, nope, set it down and revise.  Plenty of places where clearances were down to less than a foot.


a foot is a foot... better than no clearance.. 
that's pretty good done at 3pm.  and yes that's expensive, but if you didn't have it and dropped a machine or some other mess, it could have been more expensive. Sounds like you got to have a little fun on the unit too... so figure the cost of admission to the theme park


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## extropic (Jun 30, 2022)

rabler said:


> snip>  Three steering modes, normal front wheel steering, 4 wheel steering, and side shift steering.  snip>



Please clarify. Is one steering mode fronts turn left while rears turn right (4 wheel steering?) and side shift is all four turn the same way?


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## rabler (Jun 30, 2022)

extropic said:


> Please clarify. Is one steering mode fronts turn left while rears turn right (4 wheel steering?) and side shift is all four turn the same way?


Exactly.  It does require some thought when changing modes though.  It will not move the wheels without steering wheel input, which makes sense from a safety perspective.  But things get rather strange if you, for example, select front wheel steering with the rear tires not aligned straight.

Additionally, the unit has left right leveling, the wheels on the left or right can be lowered/raised to level the whole thing when sideways on a hill.  And a ball bearing in a glass tube as a level, just like the turn and bank indicator in an airplane.  Just don't try to hit the rudder pedals!!

Part of my challenge was the joystick forward/backward tilted the boom up down, and left/right retracted/extended the boom.  There is a separate rocker/thumb switch on the joystick for tilting the forks.  On my tractor which I have many hours of use, the left/right of the joystick is the fork tilt.  The controls are electronic and have some lag.  I made a point of going very slow and thinking very carefully before moving any controls, and then moving them the smallest amount I could and w a i t i n g for a response before increasing the speed a bit.  I still got it wrong a few times, but nothing catastrophic.


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## extropic (Jun 30, 2022)

rabler said:


> snip>   But things get rather strange if you, for example, select front wheel steering with the rear tires not aligned straight.   snip>



So, if you switch mode from 4 wheel steering to normal, it just leaves the rears pointed where they are? You have to switch mode back and turn the steering wheel to straighten the rears, or is there another 'straighten rear tires' button?

The dexterity that some heavy equipment operators develop is a wonderment. I don't think I could begin to appreciate it if I hadn't had some limited experience.


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## rabler (Jun 30, 2022)

extropic said:


> So, if you switch mode from 4 wheel steering to normal, it just leaves the rears pointed where they are? You have to switch mode back and turn the steering wheel to straighten the rears, or is there another 'straighten rear tires' button?
> 
> The dexterity that some heavy equipment operators develop is a wonderment. I don't think I could begin to appreciate it if I hadn't had some limited experience.


Yes, it leaves the rear tires in the old position and moves them incrementally as per the new mode.  At least as best I could tell.  As soon as I realized it was an issue I was very careful to manually align the rear tires carefully.  I didn’t mess with it extensively as we had a full day.

It’s the cross learning that gets you.  My tractor has a forward/reverse lever on the left side of the steer wheel.  I have more than once flipped it into neutral when making a left hand turn on the road, thinking ‘turn signal’.


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## rabler (Jul 1, 2022)

@woodchucker should appreciate this. 

Rated for 6 Tons.  Chinese tons I guess.   Moving a 4-5 ton lathe, weight spread over three of them ...



I think I'll cut the red polyurethane cylinder off all 4 wheels, and just run steel on concrete.  Might mar the concrete a bit, but I bet it rolls better.


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## woodchucker (Jul 1, 2022)

rabler said:


> @woodchucker should appreciate this.
> 
> Rated for 6 Tons.  Chinese tons I guess.   Moving a 4-5 ton lathe, weight spread over three of them ...
> View attachment 412269
> ...


sorry.. it didn't crack, but just the same result.. caused you problems.  So frustrating the crap we get..


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## WobblyHand (Jul 1, 2022)

The red poly cracked off the wheels of my hydraulic table last year. Worthless material, looks good but fails quickly.  Couldn't understand why the loaded table was so tough to move - that's because the poly was breaking up and becoming a wheel chock.  Won't ever buy poly coated wheels again.


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## rabler (Jul 1, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> The red poly cracked off the wheels of my hydraulic table last year. Worthless material, looks good but fails quickly.  Couldn't understand why the loaded table was so tough to move - that's because the poly was breaking up and becoming a wheel chock.  Won't ever buy poly coated wheels again.


Even before breaking up, or massively deforming as this one did, these tend to flatten fairly quickly (like overnight) with significant weight on them.   That flat spot makes it hard to roll something.  I was trying to move machines into final position with a pry bar when I realized this had happened.


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## extropic (Jul 1, 2022)

rabler said:


> @woodchucker should appreciate this.
> 
> Rated for 6 Tons.  Chinese tons I guess.   Moving a 4-5 ton lathe, weight spread over three of them ...
> View attachment 412269
> ...


 The problem is the you bought the model with 'Double Bubble' tires. LOL


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## rabler (Jul 2, 2022)

Got the granite table in place, bit of pushing with the tractor, some with a pry bar.  This puts all of the large machines (>5,000lb) where I think I want them, but I'm leaving them on 4x4's for a day or two before setting everything on leveling pads, give me a little time to decide if it feels right.  The lathe bed is not quite parallel to the back wall, it angle in a bit at the tailstock end, but I think it'll work best that way as the headstock has the lathe electrical cabinet behind it.  I left a bit more than 3' behind the lathe, easy to walk behind it, and I'll probably put shelves on the wall to store various things (primarily lathe and mill related things).   The three phase electrical still needs several days of work to be functional.

One idea from Abom79, the mill table, if moved all the way to the left, would be in the right position to put a steady rest on for something longer than the lathe bed.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 2, 2022)

Uh , rab , that is quite a hunk of granite !   I'll have to show that pic to my wife , tell her it could be worse here !


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## rabler (Jul 2, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Uh , rab , that is quite a hunk of granite !   I'll have to show that pic to my wife , tell her it could be worse here !


This is my corner to play in when my masculinity is in need of some bolstering.  Big boys, big toys.


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## woodchucker (Jul 2, 2022)

rabler said:


> One idea from Abom79, the mill table, if moved all the way to the left, would be in the right position to put a steady rest on for something longer than the lathe bed.


that was out the spindle side of the lathe, not the tailstock.


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## rabler (Jul 2, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> that was out the spindle side of the lathe, not the tailstock.


Maybe I'll line the other mill up on the headstock end


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## woodchucker (Jul 2, 2022)

rabler said:


> Maybe I'll line the other mill up on the headstock end


show off.


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## rabler (Jul 3, 2022)

I'm thinking of naming that corner of the shop "Brobdingnag"


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## mmcmdl (Jul 3, 2022)

Randall , what does that surface plate weigh in at , just for curiosity's sake ?


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## rabler (Jul 3, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Randall , what does that surface plate weigh in at , just for curiosity's sake ?


I calculated 7200 lbs based on it's size and the typical weight of granite.  I threw out a lowball offer on a nearby ebay listing and it was accepted.  I remember they tried to pick it up with a 5000lb capacity forklift, I just chuckled.   It was a CMM table, and has threaded inserts embedded about .030 below the surface on some sort of regular pattern.  I don't think that'll matter for what I do.


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## rabler (Jul 3, 2022)

rabler said:


> I'm thinking of naming that corner of the shop "Brobdingnag"


Which means that the office will have to be Lilliput (the land of small things), and the normal working area will be Laputa (the land of science and art that produces nothing useful), and the front welding area will be Houyhnhnm, where the yahoos work.
​


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## Dan Krager (Jul 3, 2022)

I don't know about rabler, but I had fun!  It was nice to be around big equipment again.  There was some paint damage but nothing more, thankfully.  Really heavy stuff can do unexpected things, kinda like operating a 50T press.  That telehandler was boss, and every feature was used.  RA didn't mention (it's kinda hard to see in pic #8 and #10- dup?) that we pushed the big lathe all the way across the shop lengthwise with just the boom extending because the rest of the machine was such a tight fit.  Still had about 20' of boom left!  I teased him about having all hooked up and running clean by the time I got home (an hour), but he was too tired to appreciate the satire!  I still can't believe what he gets done by himself and with friend wife's help.  
DanK


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## rabler (Jul 7, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> I don't know about rabler, but I had fun!  It was nice to be around big equipment again.  There was some paint damage but nothing more, thankfully.  Really heavy stuff can do unexpected things, kinda like operating a 50T press.  That telehandler was boss, and every feature was used.  RA didn't mention (it's kinda hard to see in pic #8 and #10- dup?) that we pushed the big lathe all the way across the shop lengthwise with just the boom extending because the rest of the machine was such a tight fit.  Still had about 20' of boom left!  I teased him about having all hooked up and running clean by the time I got home (an hour), but he was too tired to appreciate the satire!  I still can't believe what he gets done by himself and with friend wife's help.
> DanK


Thanks again Dan.  Appreciated your help.  To bad we didn't have time to do some playing with that thing.  Maybe see if it would push over trees?

 Still haven't gotten everything hooked up though!   

We got the last six or so sheets of drywall up now that the mini-splits are in, joints taped, and primed. 

The mill and lathe need to be set down on leveling pads, rather than the misc pieces of 4x4 they are now resting on.  And I have to get the RPC set up.  I decided to take the WNY panel and rebuild it, I'm going to make a 2 stage RPC, and am toying with a microcontroller design to switch in balancing caps as needed.  I'll rebuild it into a 2 stage manual version first with off-on-auto switches so I have something usable while toying with that.   Next month I'll need to order steel for the crane legs, after I get those in I can move the smaller mill and lathe into their section of the shop.


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## rabler (Jul 12, 2022)

Getting the compressor installed, and the RPC idler, in the small build-out blister on what I think of as the back side of the shop (although it is the side that faces the road though hidden by brush grown-up through the fence line.  The compressor is powered through a contactor on the interior light switch, so I don't have to remember to turn it on/off.    Got the electrical details all finished yesterday.  The insulation is strictly for noise damping.   I have air lines (PEX) run around the inside of the shop.  Through the wall is copper.  Still need to install shut offs, drain taps, filters, and quick connect outlets.  At some point I may try adding a cooler/radiator between the pump and tank, but for now there are too many to-dos.





The RPC needs to be assembled.  I originally had the control panel mounted on the black frame that holds the 20HP idler.  I'm wiring it through the wall.  The original panel on/off contactor buzzed like crazy, very annoying.  I'm waiting on a replacement for that, although I ordered a larger contactor, and some other electrical parts, as I am setting up the RPC so that I can upgrade it to a 10+20HP in the future.

Still need to make panel doors for this extension.


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## rabler (Jul 12, 2022)

The RPC peaked out at 209 amps starting current (peak capture on a Fluke 33 clamp-on amp-meter on the single phase lines).  I'd like to get that down to around 1/2 that.  I'm planning to try using a 10HP initial idler first, and if that doesn't get the current down I'll go with a pony motor.  Technically our rural power co-op is not fond of large motors on residential lines, although they went with "it hasn't caused problems so far" when I upgraded to a 400A meter to put in this shop.


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## extropic (Jul 12, 2022)

Exciting (no pun intended) progress going on there.

I want to be sure I understand the implications of your RPC plans.
I think you bought a 20 HP RPC (panel + idler). Correct?
Now you're talking about using a 10 HP idler?
Is it OK to run a 10 HP idler from a 20 HP panel (as is) or do you have to change any components in the panel?

You say "10HP initial idler". Does that mean you start the 10 HP idler, then after it's up to speed, you switch in the 20 HP idler, or?
So do you run both idlers continuously or switch of the 10 HP idler once the 20 HP is up to speed?


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## rabler (Jul 12, 2022)

extropic said:


> I want to be sure I understand the implications of your RPC plans.
> I think you bought a 20 HP RPC (panel + idler). Correct?
> Now you're talking about using a 10 HP idler?
> Is it OK to run a 10 HP idler from a 20 HP panel (as is) or do you have to change any components in the panel?
> ...


Ray,
Going to give you the long explanation to the best of my knowledge (which isn't complete).

The current panel and idler are a 20HP setup.   I'm *considering* rebuilding it into a RPC with BOTH a 10 HP idler and a 20HP idler, which could be run in 10, 20, or 10+20 modes, depending on need.  Right now I do not need more than 20HP of RPC idler (10HP machines) but I am considering buying and rebuilding a CNC VMC, and some of those are a bit more power hungry.

The main components of an RPC are
1) An idler
2) Contactors - Typically one for on/off, and one for the start caps
3) run capacitors
4) start capacitors
5) some odds and ends

Usually there is an input contactor which turns the incoming single phase on/off.  It needs to be sized to the input current.  Actually, contactors are sized by maximum throughput current and maximum switching current, and of course voltage(s).  The thoughput current is basically a matter of heating up (resistance) of the guts of the contactor, and the switching current is a matter of the contacts being able to handle arcing effects on opening/closing.  Due to surge currents on starting motors, contactors sometimes also have a maximum HP rating.  Anyhow, within reason, an oversize contactor will not be a problem.  As the existing on/off contactor is buzzing annoyingly, I'm replacing it with a quality 95amp/30HP rated contactor.

The start capacitors are a bit of a ballpark guess for the motor HP.  These capacitors are connected across briefly at startup by a contactor driven through a timer circuit.   The actual capacitance can be a bit of a trade off on surge startup current vs spin-up time.  This capacitance is achieved by paralleling several capacitors (6 in this case).

The run capacitors are ideally "tuned" based on voltage measurements under load.  This tuning varies based on the load, and to a lesser extent the actual idler motor characteristics.  Again this is achieved by parallel a bank of capacitors.

Due to electro-mechanical characteristics, run capacitors and start capacitors are not interchangeable.  Basically run capacitors have a 100% duty cycle.  Start capacitors have a much shorter duty cycle (due to heat buildup) but for the size and cost have significantly greater capacitance (1-2 orders of magnitude).   Both types of capacitors need to be able withstand AC voltage, which is a problematic constraint in capacitor design.

But the gist of all of it is that the capacitors in a fixed design don't provide great voltage control across all three phases over a wide variety of loads.   And a large idler running to drive a small load is not the most efficient approach.

Since I want to fix the annoying buzz, I'm redesigning my RPC panel to accommodate some future changes, but I haven't fully committed to those.  What I'd like to do is use  a microcontroller (Arduino, Teensy,  etc) to monitor the voltages on all three phases.  Potentially using FFT's to get both voltage and phase information.  Maybe throw in some hall-effect current monitoring.   I have some basic circuits in mind but prototyping is needed.   Based on voltage measurements I could then dynamically have the microcontroller switch in/out additional capacitance (adding or subtracting from the number of capacitors actively connected in parallel) to get the best voltage match across all three phases, using either TRIACs or power MOSFETs rather than contactors. 

When this came up before,  having enough CPU throughput to handle FFTs in most microcontrollers has been raised as a question.  Obviously it depends to some extend on which microcontroller.  But the maximum sampling rate I need to do basic phase comparisons is pretty trivial. I'd probably shoot for 480Hz over a few cycles of 60Hz, so maybe a 16 pt FFT on each leg?  Actual details TBD.  But the whole thing is sort of a future project.

In addition to doing dynamic capacitance adjustments, I'd set up the microcontroller to handle transitions from off-10HP-20HP-30HP modes.  Still have to have the operator (me) select the mode, as it takes too long to spin up another motor to do it dynamically based on load.  Might be able to do some predictive guesses based on what machines where switched on, but I don't see that as feasible.  Somewhere along the line a pony motor to start an idler is also a possibility??  Power factor correction on the incoming line is also a possibility.

So, for now, fix the contactor buzz, and remote the idler to outside rather than inside with the control panel.  With wiring gauges sufficient for expanded capacity if I decide to pursue that.


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## Dan Krager (Jul 13, 2022)

Randy, I'm not an ejuneer, but a dumb idea occurred to me.  What if  (hold my beer) you let the RPC's and a pony motor run continuously, perhaps on the same shaft and control their capacity continuously using electronic supervision. There would be no delay in "spin up time"  and power required in the pony just to keep idle armatures spinning would be minimal. Another dumb alternative might be to find a 30 hp motor with multiple field windings that could be rearranged or engaged as needed making all three motors compact in one unit.   

Jiggle, jiggle....put that in your pipe and smoke it!  LOL! But you can';t let the smoke out because you know these things run on smoke and don't work if you let the smoke out.
DanK


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## rabler (Jul 13, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> Randy, I'm not an ejuneer, but a dumb idea occurred to me.  What if  (hold my beer) you let the RPC's and a pony motor run continuously, perhaps on the same shaft and control their capacity continuously using electronic supervision. There would be no delay in "spin up time"  and power required in the pony just to keep idle armatures spinning would be minimal. Another dumb alternative might be to find a 30 hp motor with multiple field windings that could be rearranged or engaged as needed making all three motors compact in one unit.
> 
> Jiggle, jiggle....put that in your pipe and smoke it!  LOL! But you can';t let the smoke out because you know these things run on smoke and don't work if you let the smoke out.
> DanK


A cheaper alternative than a 30HP dual winding motor is to just interconnect the shafts on additional motors, keeping the phasing/rotation coordinated.  Either way, having more mass spinning is going to add to the idling electrical load. Ultimately a pony motor is probably a good solution for managing start-up current surge.

Yeah, don't let the magic smoke out!  (Puff, the magic dragon lives by the sea ...)


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## rabler (Jul 14, 2022)

Some days it is the nit picky little things that take up all the time and energy.   Got a couple of little things done:

Compressor is plumbed through the wall.
Dehumidifier is up on a shelf, high enough to walk past without bumping into the shelf, with the drain hose out through the wall
Made doors for the outside of the compressor shed.  Honestly would have been easier to make the rough opening to size to fit a standard double-door.  In part because I hate working with the roofing/siding sheet metal, and it shows.  (Thus no pictures).
Made a shelf to hold the NMTB 50 tooling for the K&T 3K.




This means I can patch the small piece of drywall missing under the copper pipe, and the walls will be all closed up.  Still need to get the RPC wired up. Waiting for the new contactor to come through on backorder.


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## rabler (Jul 14, 2022)

All five shop kittens


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## Dan Krager (Jul 14, 2022)

Wow.  They've grown so much in such a little while!

Did you put an automatic drain in the airline?
DanK


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## rabler (Jul 14, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> Wow.  They've grown so much in such a little while!


I'm probably feeding them too much, like I do myself.


Dan Krager said:


> Did you put an automatic drain in the airline?
> DanK


I'll put one on the tank, the interior is going to be manual drains.


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## rabler (Jul 18, 2022)

Getting this RPC rebuilt is killing me.  2 ga copper wire is not easy to run in a cabinet.  Would help if I wasn't trying to fit 20 lbs of wire in a 10 lb cabinet.  
The edison terminal block is a life saver. 



Still have to get control wiring done for the contactors. At least that doesn't need to be gorilla gauged wire.


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## NCjeeper (Jul 18, 2022)

rabler said:


> 2 ga copper wire is not easy to run in a cabinet.


I bet. I was fighting 4 gauge aluminum for mine and it wasn't fun.


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## rabler (Jul 23, 2022)

Well the rotary phase converter is running.  This turned into quite a project in itself.
This was originally a WNY panel, with the 20HP 3 phase motor from my Monarch 612 lathe set up as the idler motor. I set it up originally as a combined unit, with the idler and panel on a small frame I welded together, and a 3phase breaker panel. Here is that setup in the old building:



The contactor on the top left is the main on/off contactor.  Contactor on the top, second from the right is the start capacitor contactor.  The top rightmost thing is a voltage sensitive relay for detecting how long to leave the start capacitors engaged.  The bottom left is the run capacitors (five silver cans standing upright).  The six cans stacked on the bottom right are the start capacitors.
That original setup draws 209 amps (very briefly) at startup, which is not unrealistic for a 20HP idler but is a little higher than I'd like to see.

For the new shop, I wanted to
1) Use the existing RPC but put the idler in the external build-out shed that also houses the air compressor
2) Have the option to upgrade the RPC to include:
    A second idler for increased capacity
    A digital controlled option for balance capacitors,

I started by getting a real cut-off switch to put in front of the RPC.  I like being able to see the big red handle in the cut-off position when I'm working on it.  That cutoff is wired to the main behind the drywall to a 100amp breaker in the main panel using 4/0 aluminum SEU.  The original RPC panel is in the lower center.  The far right is a small 3 phase breaker panel.  The top center is an "expansion" panel for future digital controls. The conduit going off picture on the bottom left is to the idler, going through the wall a little off picture.





Figuring I'd need more space, I gutted the original panel and rebuilt it with the three WEG contactors plus the old start contactor.   I upgraded the wiring from 6 ga copper to 2 ga copper into and out of the RPC.  That will safely carry the 100 amps max from the main breaker on any leg through to the 3 phase breaker box.    Here's the main RPC box rebuilt with the WEG contactors.  The leftmost, 95 amp contactor is the main input on/off breaker.  It switches the single phase input lines on/off.  The third pole is used in a standard safety on/off latching in conjunction with momentary contact on/off switches.  The middle contactor is a 60amp breaker to the 20HP idler.  The rightmost contactor is currently unused but is there to support adding an additional 10HP idler.  The start capacitors and associated contactor and voltage control relay are at the bottom.  The run capacitors got moved to the expansion panel.




I added these three DPDT on/off/on switches.  One for each new contactor.  In the up position the contactors are controlled manually by red/greed on/off buttons.  In the middle position they are off (the contactor can't be activated without changing the switch position).  In the down position, the contactors are controlled by terminals in the expansion panel, which are currently not connected but allow for a future microcontroller to control the contactors.



I also decided to add some cheap volt/amp meters to the front panel so I could see the voltage and current on each of the three phase legs.






The numbers look strange, apparently the update strobing is slower than the smartphones camera shutter, but the numbers looked more reasonable in person.  Red is voltage,  with the leftmost being the line voltage and the other two being each line to generated leg.  Green is the amperage.  Nothing is running off the RPC so the output current is zero.  Idling my K&T 3K's 10HP motor takes about 10 amps.  These meters don't show power factor, which is a pretty complex issue for 3phase.  I did convert the front of the panel from a screw on panel to a hinged panel as I otherwise worried the wires to the meters would get damaged if the panel were to hang off the wires when removed.


If I were to do this again I'd just have gone to a 24" x 24" main panel (the original panel is 12" x 18" IIRC).   I would also add a small UL1077 2 pole breaker for the control circuits.  If one of the small wires breaks loose and touches the frame, the only current limiter is the 100amp main breaker.   I might also consider an output contactor.  The idler should be spun up with no 3 phase load, which for now is up to the operator (error prone me) to assure that all 3 phase machines are off before starting the RPC.  An output contactor would assure that is left open until the idler stabilizes.  And it really wouldn't be a bad idea to have heaters (overloads) for each of the idler.  I might also add an e-stop to the main contactor control if/when I start messing with digital controls, although that big red on/off handle is really the best e-stop.

As a side note, for those that made it this far, I've come into the shop on a couple mornings to find the vacuum cleaner running.  I wonder how that happens?  (Note the large on/off switch for the vacuum is right above the craftsman label, covered by some paws).


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## extropic (Jul 23, 2022)

I think you're having a lot of fun now.

I wish you had video of the moment the cat activated the shop vac. LOL
looking at the way his/her legs are under the handle, I'll bet some spectacular gymnastics ensued.
No permanent damage done because the perch is still being occupied. LOL

I don't know what "WNY panel" means. Is it a brand name or particular three phase configuration, or ??? A Google search didn't help me, so I need some better search terms. Help please.


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## rabler (Jul 23, 2022)

extropic said:


> I think you're having a lot of fun now.
> 
> I wish you had video of the moment the cat activated the shop vac. LOL
> looking at the way his/her legs are under the handle, I'll bet some spectacular gymnastics ensued.
> ...


Good question.  Yes, WNY is a brand name, I think they've been taken over by phaseconverterusa.com. I put a link in the original post to help clarify for others.

The cats manage to get into all sorts of surprising places.  They like to climb the 10ft step ladder to see where that leads


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## rabler (Jul 24, 2022)

One other thing worth mentioning, I noticed this RPC doesn't include bleeder resistors on the run capacitors.  The internal capacitors inherent resistance (ESR in geek-speak) may be enough to bleed them off before too long, but that makes me nervous.  Ironically the start capacitors do have bleeder resistors.  While they are of higher capacitance, they are also disconnected from the output line by the associated contactor.  The run capacitors remain connected to the output lines even when the RPC is "off".  Enough juice remained in them to click the motor contactor in my K&T 3K when I pushed the on button as an easy way to discharge them.  I did marr a screwdriver by crowbarring them at one point too.


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## rabler (Jul 27, 2022)

Having finished the last stretch of walls after installing the mini-splits, I went ahead and blew insulation.  You can see the wet mud where I patched the holes.  The main 24000 BTU mini-split is on the wall on the right.  The office, barely visible on the left, has a separate mini split.  Both compressors are outside just behind the main wall unit.  This area is going to be my main machining area.  Looking at the layout image I'm standing near the gray square "granite table", taking a looking in the direction that shows up as straight down on the layout.  It's about 23' wide corner to corner.  My plan as I've discussed before is to build work benches around three sides of this area and have my smaller machining tools (2 lathes and a mill) in the center of that area.



You can see the white PEX pipe I ran along the top of the wall for shop air.  I haven't tried PEX before for compressed air, so we'll see how this works long term.  Ideally the taps off the top horizontal pipe would go up slightly before coming down the wall to reduce condensation running down to the point of use taps.  I put a slight rise in the copper tap, with a drain valve at the bottom.  Hopefully that's sufficient.  I don't do any air gun spray painting, so the plasma cutter is the only air at this point that is moisture critical.  That'll get a couple of moisture traps in the typical trap/filter/regulator setup.



The office area is filling up.  Still needs to be really organized, much of the stuff has been move in without final setup.  But all the main pieces are in there.  I originally did not envision moving my electronics stuff into here, that was added somewhere along the way in the planning process.  The office is 13'4" x 10', in hindsight I should have made it 13'4 x 12''.   I suppose having moved most of the stuff into there before the rest of the shop does puts unbalanced  pressure on the office space.  The odd 13'4" is based on aisle width and symmetry with the opposing dust barrier wall.  If I'd widen those both another 16" it would have left the center aisle narrower than I wanted.    The granite surface plate is set up.  Metrology equipment hasn't been moved in yet.  I also plan on putting a unistrut track and trolley on the ceiling over the surface plate so that heavier pieces (say 50-100 lbs) can easily be hoisted onto the surface plate.


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## extropic (Jul 27, 2022)

rabler said:


> Having finished the last stretch of walls after installing the mini-splits, I went ahead and blew insulation.  You can see the wet mud where I patched the holes.  The main 24000 BTU mini-split is on the wall on the right.  *The office, barely visible on the right left*, has a separate mini split.  Both compressors are outside just behind the main wall unit.  This area is going to be my main machining area.  Looking at the layout image I'm standing near the gray square "granite table", taking a looking in the direction that shows up as straight down on the layout.  It's about 23' wide corner to corner.  My plan as I've discussed before is to build work benches around three sides of this area and have my smaller machining tools (2 lathes and a mill) in the center of that area.



Edit?

Love the progress updates.

What other "building construction" tasks are left to do? I'm anxious to see all the construction stuff moved to the fab side, the machine area floor swept clean and benches under construction. LOL, I bet you're anxious for that too.

I see only a couple of light strips on the ceiling. I assume you'll end up with quite a few more. Are enough electrical boxes already in the ceiling or??


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## rabler (Jul 27, 2022)

extropic said:


> Love the progress updates.


Yep, fixed that right/left.  Dated a gal in college that couldn't keep right from left straight.  Left was "thorn hand" when giving her directions.  She had a scar from a thorn.  Guess this is payback somehow?

Other steps are really to get the crane legs bolted to the floor, then build the workbenches.  I'll also need to wire the in-floor outlets, conduit is there back to the main breaker box but no wiring yet.  Then move the smaller machines in and re-organize all of the fixturing, tools, and such.  I think the organization will take the longest of all of that.  Getting the crane legs bolted in will take some care in placement to keep them lined up.  Will wait on the overhead steel for another month, just a budgetary issue.  Steel is pricey. 

That corner is the one with the poorest lighting right now.  If you notice the light strip isn't even fully assembled.  I'm using 8' LED strips.  I'll add two more strips over that area.  If I recall correctly I have 10 currently installed.  They can daisy chain up to 3 per plug, I have 6 receptacles (12 outlets total) in the ceiling, all on one 15 amp circuit which is the limiting factor.  It's quite a bit of light, don't know the total lumens offhand (it's probably in one of the previous posts in the thread).  Also  I eventually plan on building a shelf along the wall just above the window in the first picture.  3 or 4 LVL joists at 23' long, to make a 4' deep shelf, with 7' clearance underneath (the top of the window is at 7'.)  If you look at that wall there are two outlets just below window top height on either side of the window, and a switch next to the window.  That's to hang more work lights under that shelf over the bench if needed.

Yep, I'm ready to start using the shop rather than working on it as a project.  I've been doing a bit of work on my belt sander just to get my hobby fix, but it is a little annoying as things are split right now between the two buildings, ready to get all the machinng stuff in one place.  I also have a long list of machine rehabs that I want to get back to working on.  Obviously the 10EE is in need of some TLC.  My Monarch CK really needs turcite on the carriage.  The 612 needs the cross-slide scraped and the oiler mechanism in there fixed.  And two surface grinders that I haven't powered up yet, much less determined what sort of care and feeding they will need.


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## extropic (Jul 27, 2022)

Dohhhh!  I forgot about the bridge crane when I asked 'what's left'.

How deep do you plan the shelf over the benches to be. I like you using the volume (not just the floor space) for dead storage but please take special care to have a safe shelf access method. So many people get hurt falling from ladders. Please don't become one of them.


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## rabler (Jul 28, 2022)

extropic said:


> Dohhhh!  I forgot about the bridge crane when I asked 'what's left'.
> 
> How deep do you plan the shelf over the benches to be. I like you using the volume (not just the floor space) for dead storage but please take special care to have a safe shelf access method. So many people get hurt falling from ladders. Please don't become one of them.





rabler said:


> 3 or 4 LVL joists at 23' long, to *make a 4' deep shelf*, with 7' clearance underneath (the top of the window is at 7'.)


My current shop had no wall space for shelves with all of the equipment.  Too much stuff ended up on the floor, hard to sweep, trip hazard, etc.  This will be storage for things rarely accessed.


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## rabler (Jul 30, 2022)

Also, come this fall, I will be putting in a natural gas fired heater as well as a wood burning stove.


extropic said:


> What other "building construction" tasks are left to do?


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## rabler (Jul 30, 2022)

Small diversion, cutting out dead sassafras trees.


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## BGHansen (Jul 31, 2022)

rabler said:


> Small diversion, cutting out dead sassafras trees.


Ah, fuel for the wood burner!  Think it'll make your shop smell like root beer?


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## rabler (Jul 31, 2022)

BGHansen said:


> Ah, fuel for the wood burner! Think it'll make your shop smell like root beer?


As you can see I have quite a few more dead trees to take out.  Then I need to drag out the hydraulic splitter.   Temps are suppose to be back up in the 90's this coming week so none of that will happen soon.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 31, 2022)

Yes , definately NOT the time for wood work .


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2022)

Designing the crane in FreeCad.  Initial issue is to get the layout and length for the legs.  Then I can fab the legs and drill the anchors.  Upper structure will be installed later.  This design will get some additional bracing.  I'll connect the ends of the side rails together, and put in some diagonal bracing between the legs.

Crane spans 22' for the bridge, and about 38' long side rails.  Capacity will be 1 ton.  Higher capacity would be more expensive, and more importantly, heavier.  I'm going for an unmotorized design.

For the FreeCad users, I did this as multiple components in version .20, and then assembled the components as multiple copy/pasted bodies.  There are certainly more elegant ways to do this, including the various assembly workbenches, but I'm all about straightforward brute force, not trying to get any fancier than needed with the CAD tools, especially as fancy things in FreeCad tend to result in total melt downs.
.




These end trucks are 24" long as shown.  Going to redo them to be 36" long.    Longer means not quite getting as close to the end walls, but will reduce issues with the bridge beam racking off square.  There will be follower wheels to keep them square on the rails, just didn't add those, or the bushings and axle bolts, etc,  into the CAD.


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## extropic (Aug 5, 2022)

A couple comments on the trucks. I would want the largest diameter wheels that I could package within the other dimensional constraints. Full width (across the beam flange) isn't necessary.









						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				




You might consider incorporating some kind of strip brush at each end of each truck.









						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				




That is going to be Soooo nice.


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## extropic (Aug 5, 2022)

Thinking about the brushes a little more, I would modify and mount some wire brushes, rather than those wimpy conveyor brushes I linked above.









						Lincoln Electric 9 in. Long Wooden Handled Carbon Steel Welding Wire Brush (.8 in. x 4.9 in. Bristle Area 4 x 16 Row) KH585
					

Lincoln Electric Wooden Shoe Handle Carbon Steel Brush is a heavy-duty brush for cleaning metal and removing slag. The brush has 4 rows of bristles in an ergonomic wooden handle. The brush measures 10-1/4



					www.homedepot.com


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2022)

extropic said:


> A couple comments on the trucks. I would want the largest diameter wheels that I could package within the other dimensional constraints. Full width (across the beam flange) isn't necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, larger wheels would provide smoother rolling.  I had already been pondering brush options.  The best option would be something mounted at a slight angle, with a rotary brush action.  Something a little stiffer, but like:








						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				



Those are awfully pricey ...


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2022)

Here's a better option, use two of these in a V








						Eastwood Cylindrical Wire Brush - 5 pack
					

Works with your drill to scrape away rust, paint and other coatings




					www.eastwood.com


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## extropic (Aug 5, 2022)

rabler said:


> Here's a better option, use two of these in a V
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you thinking of powering cylindrical brushes? Some kind of friction drive off the support wheels would be an interesting project.

Cutting the head off of some hardware store, wooden handled wire brushes would be very simple, inexpensive and effective. They could be mounted on a leaf spring arrangement.

Even using pieces of a squeegee blade would last decades.


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2022)

extropic said:


> Are you thinking of powering cylindrical brushes? Some kind of friction drive off the support wheels would be an interesting project.
> 
> Cutting the head off of some hardware store, wooden handled wire brushes would be very simple, inexpensive and effective. They could be mounted on a leaf spring arrangement.
> 
> Even using pieces of a squeegee blade would last decades.


Unpowered. Ever seen a hay wheel rake?  Same principal.  Friction over the surface of the beam spins the brush cylinder.  Mounting the cylinder at an angle to the direction of travel results in a sweeping action that is at an angle.  Just need a free spinning cylindrical brush.


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## extropic (Aug 6, 2022)

I'm not able to visualize (imagine?) how you would configure those cylindrical brushes (unpowered) to sweep debris in the same direction of travel as the trolley and off the edge of the beam flange. I'm looking forward to the education.


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## rabler (Aug 6, 2022)

extropic said:


> I'm not able to visualize (imagine?) how you would configure those cylindrical brushes (unpowered) to sweep debris in the same direction of travel as the trolley and off the edge of the beam flange. I'm looking forward to the education.


Simple CAD sketch.  Imagine the cylinder is a brush, free to spin, moves across the beam with the end truck.  Because of friction, the cylinder will spin.  Because the cylinder is at an angle, the bristles have some motion that is toward the flange edge.  Since it is rotating, debris is much less likely to stick to the brush.   Since this beam is about 11' up, I think a fairly soft bristle would be effective in remove the dust likely to find it's way up there, I don't foresee heavy debris, maybe a few chips but even that is unlikely.



Figure a bristle tip sticks to the beam for a small distance, over which distance the brush angle induces some deflection toward the beam edge.  When the bristle tip releases, that deflection results in the bristle springing back in a direction toward the beam edge.

I familiar with the concept from wheel rakes for hay, but the same principle is used as a conveyor brush








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In a crane application it would tend to sweep right in one direction of travel, and left in the other.   A slotted mount for one side of the brush axle would allow it to pivot so that it would sweep off the same side regardless of travel direction.


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## extropic (Aug 6, 2022)

rabler said:


> Simple CAD sketch.  Imagine the cylinder is a brush, free to spin, moves across the beam with the end truck.  Because of friction, the cylinder will spin.  Because the cylinder is at an angle, the bristles have some motion that is toward the flange edge.  Since it is rotating, debris is much less likely to stick to the brush.   Since this beam is about 11' up, I think a fairly soft bristle would be effective in remove the dust likely to find it's way up there, I don't foresee heavy debris, maybe a few chips but even that is unlikely.
> View attachment 416394
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explanation. If you like the angled, unpowered, slotted mount, rotating cylindrical brush concept, I'm 100% OK with your choice. It's your project and I'm sure that what ever you come up with, in the end, will suit your purpose.

I guess I'd have to test the concept to see how it would perform. I'm not hopeful.
I think the wheel rake is a vastly different and specialized apparatus. It doesn't help me understand the efficacy of unpowered cylindrical brushes. I'm also underwhelmed by the conveyor brush example. After all, a conveyor belt recirculates so gravity will remove debris. IMO, regarding "light cleaning", a conveyor brush can have a scrubbing effect on the surface of the belt which may dislodge adhered contamination allowing gravity to finish the cleaning.


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## rabler (Aug 6, 2022)

extropic said:


> Thanks for the explanation. If you like the angled, unpowered, slotted mount, rotating cylindrical brush concept, I'm 100% OK with your choice. It's your project and I'm sure that what ever you come up with, in the end, will suit your purpose.


I'm going to focus on getting the legs installed for now.  I'm eating this elephant one bite at a time.  The rest is ... somewhere down the road.


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## rabler (Aug 12, 2022)

Playing in FreeCAD to create a model of the old shop which will be dedicated to woodworking.  Actually wasn't that hard to create a 3-D model.  But true to FreeCAD's quirks, the labeling tools don't like the model I created given the way I grouped things to make moving them around easy.  There's probably a way to do this properly, but given that FreeCAD is a jumble of tools (called workbenches) that aren't well integrated, it didn't work with my model.

Shop looks so clean and open when you only show the major components.  All the clutter just magically disappears!  I still have my go-to lathe and mill in this shop, so this is just some planning for when all the machining gets moved to the new building.  SOON!


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## rabler (Aug 16, 2022)

Shop is about ready to start moving the day-to-day machining tools in.  Just finished up building the benches, still working on shelves.  Basically I'll have shelves above the bench most of the way around.  Pictures from left to right of the back part of the shop.  The daily use mill and lathe will be set in the center of the U made by the benches.






It isn't completely clean, but moving stuff in will be a shuffle of moving stuff down to this shop, cleaning stuff out of here, and eventually getting a dumpster to clean up.


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## extropic (Aug 16, 2022)

Looking good Randal.

Please explain the framing/panels on either side of the man door in the machine shop area.

It looks, to me, like the side panels may be intended to be removeable to create a large opening.

I don't remember that being discussed before. What's up there?


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## rabler (Aug 16, 2022)

extropic said:


> Looking good Randal.
> 
> Please explain the framing/panels on either side of the man door in the machine shop area.
> 
> ...


Just the way the doors are framed up.


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## rabler (Aug 22, 2022)

Moved the daily use mill and the lathe from the old shop, which is officially now the wood shop, to the machine shop.  The mill, at about 2000 lbs factory spec, was fairly easy.  The lathe, at somewhere around 3500 lbs, was more of a challenge.  I had the lathe headstock sitting on a base that mounted the DRO, VFD controls, and a jib crane.  This made a stable base for the jib crane, which is meant for a couple hundred pounds at most, usually lifting chucks on and off.  It also raised the whole lathe up about 2".


Got the lathe on skates and a shop made set of pallet jack wheels, and rolled it to the front door (it was, of course, in the back corner).


I have to say, I think I'm going to throw these amazon skates out.  They are just not what you want to use.  They are big and impressive and have some ridiculously overrated capacity (6 tons?).  But in addition to the previously mentioned issues with the urethane rollers, they sit way too high.  They need about 6" of height to get under something.  If the base of your mill/lathe is 24" wide, then 6" of height is a fair amount of tilt.  Probably more than you want to lift one side, so I found myself lifting one side part way, blocking it on wood scraps, then lifting the other all the way to get a skate underneath, then back to the first side.    Tedious, but not unmanageable.  But if you have skates on two sides 24" apart and one comes out while you are rolling it, that 6" drop is much worse than a 3" drop.  Yeah, that happened  (blush).  Fortunately other than a divot in the concrete, no harm done if you don't count sudden heart thudding.

Anyway, the challenge is the garage door on the now wood shop is 7' high.  That is the opening height, knock about 6" usable height off of there for the garage door not quite opening all the way.  That leaves little clearance over the top of the lathe for getting something in to lift with.  My tractor loader/forklift can lift just under 3000 lbs on a pallet, a bit more if you get the lift point all the way back to the forklift frame.   I removed the tailstock and chuck to take some weight off, then rolled the lathe all the way to the door and just managed to get the loader in enough to lift the headstock with the tailstock still on rollers, and pull the lathe out from under the doorway.  Then I could get the loader frame over the bed of the lathe to hoist with rigging straps.   The strap on the motor end is really for balance, it was about 50lbs heavy on that end with the main lift point on the bed cross webbing nearest the headstock.    The orange ratchet strap is just to hold the wheels on to the tailstock end when the lathe was lifted.





The tractor is a 16 gear F/R, this is probably the first time I've felt like idling in lowest gear was still too fast.  Pictures didn't catch it but I had a 7' drag blade on the back of the tractor as a bit of a counterweight.  And I added air to the front tires.




So at this point, all of the machines are in the new shop!  Quite a bit of work to do yet in terms of hooking them back up, I have to run the in floor electrical through the conduit, finish up the shelving, and then get everything organized.   One thing about the layout I fixed: these older lathes are really meant to be cleaned out from the back side, unlike the boxed in modern lathes.  That means you need clearance around the back to get in and clean up, in the old shop I had the lathe pretty much up against a wall.  Obviously no longer so in this shop.  I'll eventually put the 10EE back to back with this lathe, with about 30" between them to get in and clean.





I'm off to for cross country travels this coming weekend for my bi-annual cancer followup.  Which is also a chance to see my family, including my father who was just in the hospital for more heart issues.  I've more or less made my goal of having this shop "commissioned" by that time.  Time to break out an adult beverage and declare victory.  I'm declaring this shop done and ready for use.  Well, at least usable and almost done.  I still need to build the bridge crane (you can see the white supports in some of the pictures).   But I can start using it now.  Guess I'll close out this thread on that note.


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## woodchucker (Aug 22, 2022)

yea, those skates look high. Can you machine them down on the sides then redrill and put new axles and use bearings for wheels. 
Also maybe remove the pad on top, and put a rubber flat pad on top... leave a hole in the center for the leveling screw, it should keep it from bailing on you... it should just drag it along..

hope your checkup is good.


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## BGHansen (Aug 22, 2022)

rabler said:


> So at this point, all of the machines are in the new shop!  Quite a bit of work to do yet in terms of hooking them back up, I have to run the in floor electrical through the conduit, finish up the shelving, and then get everything organized.   One thing about the layout I fixed: these older lathes are really meant to be cleaned out from the back side, unlike the boxed in modern lathes.  That means you need clearance around the back to get in and clean up, in the old shop I had the lathe pretty much up against a wall.  Obviously no longer so in this shop.  I'll eventually put the 10EE back to back with this lathe, with about 30" between them to get in and clean.
> 
> 
> I'm off to for cross country travels this coming weekend for my bi-annual cancer followup.  Which is also a chance to see my family, including my father who was just in the hospital for more heart issues.  I've more or less made my goal of having this shop "commissioned" by that time.  Time to break out an adult beverage and declare victory.  I'm declaring this shop done and ready for use.  Well, at least usable and almost done.  I still need to build the bridge crane (you can see the white supports in some of the pictures).   But I can start using it now.  *Guess I'll close out this thread on that note.*


Hey Randal,

Thanks for taking us along for the ride!  I know it's a pain to worry about taking pictures while you've got some heavy iron swinging in the breeze!  Looking forward to seeing your future projects!

Bruce


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