# Are these squares worth it?



## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

These squares look nice. I'm assuming they are blems. Any idea if these are a good price or can I find them cheaper else ware?  I googled them but haven't seen the same set.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MACHINIST-S...288209?hash=item3387f4a0d1:g:EhwAAOxyXDhSknoS


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

LOL..... Really? No one has an opinion? This is much different than other forums I am on where everyone has an opinion. Wow, this place is very tame..... I like it.


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## Randall Marx (Apr 12, 2017)

Hi Finster
I just saw your question about these squares. I have no experience with this set, but have a couple of sets of combination squares from i-gaging. Their stuff seems to be priced quite low by comparison. With that in mind, I doubt that they are blems. I've been happy with the combination squares so far, but have not been able to check how closely they match specifications.
Please let us know what you think if you purchase them.
Thanks.
-Randall


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## dlane (Apr 12, 2017)

I would get a machinist square set.


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## ericc (Apr 12, 2017)

Compare the specs with the Starrett solid squares.  They aren't quite at the same level, but it may be OK for the price.


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## Ken from ontario (Apr 12, 2017)

I don't have that  square set but  have other Igaging marking and measuring tools and they seem to be alright, have a 4" and a 6" doubles squares from them  ,very accurate.
Lee Valley sells individual "Engineer's squares" they are a bit more but well worth it.


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## Nogoingback (Apr 12, 2017)

Finster said:


> LOL..... Really? No one has an opinion? This is much different than other forums I am on where everyone has an opinion. Wow, this place is very tame..... I like it.



Your first post was at 3:10 in the morning...


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

Nogoingback said:


> Your first post was at 3:10 in the morning...


6:10 AM. I'm in the East.  Am I the only one up that early?  Yea, couldn't sleep. I'm trying to get back to regular sleeping hours after working 3rd shift for a month.


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## ddickey (Apr 12, 2017)

Outage?


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## RJSakowski (Apr 12, 2017)

Finster said:


> These squares look nice. I'm assuming they are blems. Any idea if these are a good price or can I find them cheaper else ware?  I googled them but haven't seen the same set.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/MACHINIST-S...288209?hash=item3387f4a0d1:g:EhwAAOxyXDhSknoS



The listed spec. is +/- .1º which works out to +/- .0018"/".   For a 6" square, that is +/- .010".  IMO, that's not very square.

A number of tool companies sell workshop grade square sets  with a specified accuracy of .0008 +L/10.000,  where L is the beam length, (class H)  which works out to .0012" for the 6" square.  Prices vary but they are around the eBay price or lower.
http://www.traverscatalogs.com/lg_display.cfm/catalog/Master_2017/page/1021/highlight/square


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## Doubleeboy (Apr 12, 2017)

If that set of squares are really built to that poor a tolerance I would pass, you could likely do better from CDCO, Shars ebay, aliexpress.


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

ddickey said:


> Outage?


Yup........ Nukes, you in the field?


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

Doubleeboy said:


> If that set of squares are really built to that poor a tolerance I would pass, you could likely do better from CDCO, Shars ebay, aliexpress.


Can you recommend a good set.... with a link?


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## ddickey (Apr 12, 2017)

Finster said:


> Yup........ Nukes, you in the field?


Yep. In training week now.


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## ddickey (Apr 12, 2017)

Try https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/ and look for PEC squares. I think they're decent.


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

ddickey said:


> Yep. In training week now.


Is this your first? I've been doing it a long time I'm around 40 - 50 outages.


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## Rustrp (Apr 12, 2017)

I see no point in buying a machinist square that isn't square and has limited capabilities. I'm even having difficulties giving it a name. A **Not-So-Square** maybe? The bevel limits it's capabilities. i.e. If you wanted to scribe a line. There are many **cute** tools on the market today because someone could program and produce them on a CNC machining center. Unfortunately I see the same accuracy tolerances quoted for the cheaper standard machinist squares with the blade pinned into the body.


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## ddickey (Apr 12, 2017)

No. I've gone through two so far. I'm an NLO permanent employee. Do you just do outages?


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

ddickey said:


> No. I've gone through two so far. I'm an NLO permanent employee. Do you just do outages?





Rustrp said:


> I see no point in buying a machinist square that isn't square and has limited capabilities. I'm even having difficulties giving it a name. A **Not-So-Square** maybe? The bevel limits it's capabilities. i.e. If you wanted to scribe a line. There are many **cute** tools on the market today because someone could program and produce them on a CNC machining center. Unfortunately I see the same accuracy tolerances quoted for the cheaper standard machinist squares with the blade pinned into the body.


I liked the fact that they were one piece of metal and not pinned. Seems like they should be better though, I agree.


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## Doubleeboy (Apr 12, 2017)

Finster said:


> Can you recommend a good set.... with a link?



Sadly no , main reason is most suppliers buy in large lots, their supplier can change.  Mine are all decades old, but I bought them from Enco which is now swallowed up by MSC.  I would think even a Harbor Freight set would be okay and if not return it, assuming they make such a tool.  If you want good and don't care about price buy Browne and Sharp or Starrett or Mitutoyo.


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## hman (Apr 12, 2017)

RJSakowski said:


> The listed spec. is +/- .1º which works out to +/- .0018"/".   For a 6" square, that is +/- .010".  IMO, that's not very square.


It's interesting that in the photo, two of the squares are marked "DIN - 0", one marked "DIN - 00" and one unmarked.  Anybody know what these designations mean?  And I'd have to wonder about the unmarked one ... even though the seller claims they're (all) DIN standard????  Who knows ... maybe DIN includes a "clunky, junky" category in their standard, and that's what the unmarked one is rated as.

I agree that 0.1º is pretty poor.


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## Rustrp (Apr 12, 2017)

Finster said:


> I liked the fact that they were one piece of metal and not pinned. Seems like they should be better though, I agree.


The assembly process with the pinned square is what's important. After it's pinned it's ground to tolerances. The squares you posted are only good for checking (if they were accurate) inside squareness of an item. The parts usually referred to as the body and the blade are one thickness, or that's how I view them in the photos. If they're not hardened then the listed tolerances could get much worse, quickly. With that said; No precision measuring device maintains accuracy if it's dropped.


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

Well, I was just looking at some browne and sharps that are supposed to be accurate to .0006 but the reviews were horrible. one guy said a .005 feeler went under the 6".  They are supposed to be USA made also. I don't want to spend $300 on squares (who does for a hobby) I would like to find a set that's decent for around $100. Heck, even the Starrett's I saw (zorro) were made in China, they have to be crap.


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## skinny_jim (Apr 12, 2017)

I am a bit more pragmatic in replying to this post ...... what are you going to build using these squares? You use these types of tools as a visual or tactile reference. If you are not building components for the space shuttle than they may be adequate. You get what you pay for. If you are looking for quality than spend as much as you can afford if you are looking for a bargain than buy them! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Bob Korves (Apr 12, 2017)

ddickey said:


> Try https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/ and look for PEC squares. I think they're decent.


+1 on the PEC squares for Epstein.  Good stuff, USA made, good pricing.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 12, 2017)

I have a few "precision" tools from iGaging and I have been quite unimpressed with them.  They are a set of 12, 24, and 36" precision straightedges that are poorly finished, have difficult to read markings, and are not straight -- all three of them!


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

skinny_jim said:


> I am a bit more pragmatic in replying to this post ...... what are you going to build using these squares? You use these types of tools as a visual or tactile reference. If you are not building components for the space shuttle than they may be adequate. You get what you pay for. If you are looking for quality than spend as much as you can afford if you are looking for a bargain than buy them!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Like most people I want a diamond for the price of a piece of coal.  You never know how good of a square you may need so I want the very best for my money (doesn't everyone) So what I'm getting at is what would be the most "reliable" brand. I guess the "best chance" of getting something decent. PEC has come up more than once but I can't seem to find a set anywhere.


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## wawoodman (Apr 12, 2017)

Amazon has some PEC tools, or you can order direct;
http://www.pectools.com


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

wawoodman said:


> Amazon has some PEC tools, or you can order direct;
> http://www.pectools.com


Thanks..... On me..... DAH! Guess I was having a brain fart or something......  I could have Googled PEC.... again....DAH! Sometimes I'm stupid! LOL.... It's hell to get old. Anyway, thanks for the help! That's what I'm looking for. I thought this would be some easy task but it's turned out to be a big deal. I figured if you can get a set of gage blocks that are as accurate as I'll ever need, how hard could it be to get a few lousy squares. CRIPES! I found a set of PEC's for $69 shipped but now I'm afraid to pull the trigger! You guys made me gun shy!


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## Bob Korves (Apr 12, 2017)

Finster said:


> Like most people I want a diamond for the price of a piece of coal.  You never know how good of a square you may need so I want the very best for my money (doesn't everyone) So what I'm getting at is what would be the most "reliable" brand. I guess the "best chance" of getting something decent. PEC has come up more than once but I can't seem to find a set anywhere.


Find them here:
https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/  Click on closeouts:  https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/closeouts.html
You must go through the closeouts manually to see them all, and you will not find the specials by searching PEC in the main index.  I have a set of PEC machinist squares and a PEC double square that are TESTED square with my cylindrical square and with my granite square on a recently calibrated AA surface plate.  Today, they are better made than Starrett and have MUCH better pricing, even at retail.

Edit: PEC's combination square parts sold as 'blems' are every bit as good as the full price ones and are unbelievably cheap.  HJE and eBay both have them for sale.  They are every bit as good as Starrett.


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## Finster (Apr 12, 2017)

Well, here is the best deal I can find (checked Epsteins):
http://www.drillspot.com/products/2426403/PEC_7000-S4_7000-S4_Solid_Square_Set_-_Pec
What do you guys think? Get'em? They are supposed to be .0006......


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## pstemari (Apr 12, 2017)

I have a couple PEC squares and they're decent. Not Starrett, but 9/10 as good for 1/3 the price.

Modern B&S is China import crap :-(



Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## Bob Korves (Apr 12, 2017)

Finster said:


> Well, here is the best deal I can find (checked Epsteins):
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/2426403/PEC_7000-S4_7000-S4_Solid_Square_Set_-_Pec
> What do you guys think? Get'em? They are supposed to be .0006......


I have the exact same set.  It is excellent, and better than .0006"


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## RJSakowski (Apr 12, 2017)

Squares are one of the few metrological instruments that are self calibrating.    It is fairly easy to verify the accuracy of a set of squares using a surface plate or other known flat surface or a known good straight edge.  Place squares A and B back to back with blades touching.  Using feeler gauges, measure the gap and record the size and location (top or bottom).  Next, place squares A and C back to back and repeat.  Finally, put squares B and C back to back and repeat.  Here is an illustration of the process along with the calculations.  
If you have been out of school for some time, it may test your algebra skills.


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## Rustrp (Apr 12, 2017)

Finster said:


> Well, I was just looking at some browne and sharps that are supposed to be accurate to .0006 but the reviews were horrible. one guy said a .005 feeler went under the 6".


My first question is by what method was the square checked? Did they use a surface plate or detail how they checked the square?


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## Rustrp (Apr 12, 2017)

RJSakowski said:


> If you have been out of school for some time, it may test your algebra skills.


I agree, and I've been out of school a long time. It doesn't take a lot of math to place a square against a straight edge, scribe a line along the blade, flip it 180° and see where the line is in relationship to the blade. Of course this only gives us a rough indication of the blade accuracy measuring the inside and outside 90°. With that said; we need to check the beam and blade for width accuracy too.


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## mikey (Apr 12, 2017)

Solid squares are typically made to a DIN standard. The ebay ones say this but do not state their accuracy class so who knows. The beveled edges are typical of tool makers squares and are useful for scribing and aligning with reduced parallax. My Tesa solid square has an accuracy class 00 rating - less than 0.00003" over the length of the blade. 

Solid squares have limited utility. They are good for layout work and preliminary alignment before using a DTI for final alignment of a work piece. They're also useful to get something aligned at roughly a right angle, like a boring tool post or some such thing. Personally, a hardened combination square is more useful to me.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 12, 2017)

I have a hardened Starrett four piece 12" combination square set, a hardened Lufkin four piece 12" set, and an additional hardened PEC 18" rule that fits both.  I find combination squares quite versatile and I have always thought that they are repeatably accurate for doing decent layout work, but not for anything requiring tight and repeatable accuracy tolerances.  I must confess to never testing comprehensively a combination square other than an old Stanley one which was not even in the ball park, and which I fit to be a lot closer, but still too far off for peace of mind.  I go to tested, solid squares and my Starrett bevel protractor when I need accurate work.  Am I missing something?


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## mikey (Apr 13, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> I have a hardened Starrett four piece 12" combination square set, a hardened Lufkin four piece 12" set, and an additional hardened PEC 18" rule that fits both.  I find combination squares quite versatile and I have always thought that they are repeatably accurate for doing decent layout work, but not for anything requiring tight and repeatable accuracy tolerances.  I must confess to never testing comprehensively a combination square other than an old Stanley one which was not even in the ball park, and which I fit to be a lot closer, but still too far off for peace of mind.  I go to tested, solid squares and my Starrett bevel protractor when I need accurate work.  Am I missing something?



I did not mean to imply that solid squares are not accurate; just that they have tolerances and we have to understand what those tolerances are. As long as they are accurate enough for the work we do then, okay. My milling T-square is shop made and was aligned with my Tesa square. The T-square is accurate enough to be very, very useful but it is not dead nuts; I still get a tenth or so deviation on stock I square with it if I measure the stock on a surface plate with a DTI. This is in keeping with my reference square so I can accept that. 

I think a lot of us think that a solid square is balls on accurate; they are not. They are good enough for most work we do but if something has to be dead on, then an indicator is still the best bet. 

 I guess we have to decide when good enough is good enough.


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## Rustrp (Apr 13, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> I find combination squares quite versatile and I have always thought that they are repeatably accurate for doing decent layout work, but not for anything requiring tight and repeatable accuracy tolerances.



I have multiple squares for multiple uses and I put my 18" Starrett combination square up against any in regards to accuracy and I handle it accordingly. A fixed inaccurate machinist square is no better than a worn combination square. I think it best to think of a combination square like we do a piece of equipment with ways. They need to be kept clean, wiped down, grime and grit free, otherwise they wear on the bearing surface and become inaccurate. Knowing the tolerances of each measuring tool we work with should come first. I have three framing squares, one I use for layout, the other two for checking square when I'm welding.

I'm not sure how many folks know the likelihood of having two measuring tapes of the same brand, model, etc. measure the same is close to slim and none.  Somewhere within 10' they will not match up at least once and sometimes multiple places by 1/16".


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## Bob Korves (Apr 13, 2017)

Well, I have the AA calibration surface plate, the granite square, a cylinder square, a surface grinder set up as close as I can get it so far, and tenths indicators, among other things.  If my squares are not correct, I can fix them, as needed.  Of course my shop is not temperature controlled and not everything is calibrated currently to a traceable standard, but I can work pretty close if I want or need to.  When I get in over my head and start chasing things I cannot quantify with assurance, then it becomes obvious that I just have to call it good enough.  Still, that is pretty damn close, and tested multiple ways to make me more confident.  That method makes me feel much better than taking the manufacturer's accuracy claims as gospel.  A lot of those claims are wishful thinking or intentionally misleading...  And, of course, a lot of my work is to very wide tolerances, so it mostly works out.  But I am paying attention, and not just a true believer.


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## whitmore (Apr 13, 2017)

Doubleeboy said:


> Sadly no , main reason is most suppliers buy in large lots, their supplier can change. ...  If you want good and don't care about price buy Browne and Sharp or Starrett or Mitutoyo.



Alas, that's not a guarantee.   I've got two Starrett squares, and one of them
isn't.   No sign of damage, just... not the same angle as the other.

The old, battered combination-square is the good 'un.  In a way, that's
comforting.


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## Finster (Apr 13, 2017)

Well, I guess I'll pull the trigger and get'em. But if my Mars spaceship crashes and burns because it was .001" out of square, I'm blaming you guys!


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## royesses (Apr 13, 2017)

$63.95 at LMS for the PEC 4 piece set:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2742&category=






Roy


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## Finster (Apr 13, 2017)

royesses said:


> $63.95 at LMS for the PEC 4 piece set:
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2742&category=
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, that's about what I paid for them plus $8 shipping. I'm glad you didn't find that set for $20 I would have been bummed!


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## EmilioG (Apr 15, 2017)

The Starrett 4" double square is a nice tool.  Very useful.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 15, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> The Starrett 4" double square is a nice tool.  Very useful.


I only recently bought my first double square, a 6" PEC.  I am already pleasantly surprised at how often I find it useful.


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## acmef150 (Apr 15, 2017)

Finster said:


> These squares look nice. I'm assuming they are blems. Any idea if these are a good price or can I find them cheaper else ware?  I googled them but haven't seen the same set.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/MACHINIST-S...288209?hash=item3387f4a0d1:g:EhwAAOxyXDhSknoS


KBC tools has a nice 4 piece set of PEC machinist squares on sale for $49 .


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## 38Bill (Apr 15, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> +1 on the PEC squares for Epstein.  Good stuff, USA made, good pricing.



The Harry Epstein site for the PEC  square says:    PEC - Made in India


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## T Bredehoft (Apr 15, 2017)

Just my humble opinion,  I have a Starrett Square, blade is pinned in the handle. I bought it in the early 1980s from the estate of a retired tool maker. I have never tested it against another square, I use it daily and am satisfied that it's square enough for the work I do. It was sold to be square when new and doesn't have any dinged corners indicating having been dropped hard. I trust it to be square enough.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 15, 2017)

38Bill said:


> The Harry Epstein site for the PEC  square says:    PEC - Made in India


Which square, Bill?  I have not seen any imported squares so far from PEC.  Not to say it is wrong, they would certainly not be the first to outsource across the pond.


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## ddickey (Apr 15, 2017)

India makes some decent tools, I think. It would not surprise me.


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## pstemari (Apr 15, 2017)

I have a couple of PEC engineers squares and they're marked "made in USA". 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## Bob Korves (Apr 15, 2017)

pstemari said:


> I have a couple of PEC engineers squares and they're marked "made in USA".
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


All of the PEC and Central Tool Company tools I have are marked USA.  Might be others that are not...


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## ddickey (Apr 15, 2017)

Mine are not. The only thing is the logo.


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## pstemari (Apr 15, 2017)

That's sad. I've been trying to buy PEC to encourage a newish us manufacturer.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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## RonRock (Apr 15, 2017)

https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/6-pc-machinist-solid-square-set.html

"Country of Origin   India"

Not judging, just saying.


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## 38Bill (Apr 15, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Which square, Bill?  I have not seen any imported squares so far from PEC.  Not to say it is wrong, they would certainly not be the first to outsource across the pond.



Here:          https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/6-pec-solid-machinist-square.html


I just saw Ron beat me to it.


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## Rustrp (Apr 15, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Which square, Bill?  I have not seen any imported squares so far from PEC.  Not to say it is wrong, they would certainly not be the first to outsource across the pond.


They have both and they list them both way, USA or Import. Who knows, maybe one of the family members at Epstein's (third cousin, five times removed) decided to cut a corner for a dollar. I know you've promoted PEC and they do make USA at a good price and very good quality, unfortunately they have fallen on the sword of trying to be competitive or match the competitive market. It seems they chose India over China for some of their product. The problem all the manufacturers deal with is QC. The simple fact that a square can be produced to .0006" in the environment is amazing. I believe mikey has already presented a good position on machinist squares and accuracy. They are a first step in the process and shouldn't be last word,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,plus, how many posting here can actually see the difference between .001" and .0001"?


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## Bob Korves (Apr 15, 2017)

pstemari said:


> I have a couple of PEC engineers squares and they're marked "made in USA".
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


All of the PEC and Central Tool Company tools I have are marked USA.  Might be others that are not...


RonRock said:


> https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/6-pc-machinist-solid-square-set.html
> 
> "Country of Origin   India"
> 
> Not judging, just saying.


Those are not PEC squares, they are Acme, made in India.  I do not see PEC on that page.


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## 38Bill (Apr 15, 2017)

The link I posted is for a:  

*6" PEC SOLID MACHINIST SQUARE*


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## RonRock (Apr 15, 2017)

I don't know how that link got crossed up. But here is another,

https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/6-pec-solid-machinist-square.html

Not for a set, but it is PEC


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## Bob Korves (Apr 15, 2017)

RonRock said:


> I don't know how that link got crossed up. But here is another,
> 
> https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/6-pec-solid-machinist-square.html
> 
> Not for a set, but it is PEC


OK, thanks Ron.


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## mikey (Apr 16, 2017)

Interestingly, I just looked up a Starrett 4" Tool Maker's stainless steel square and it is said to be square within 0.0002" over its blade length. That's pretty darned square! Then I noticed it is part of Starrett's Global Series, which means its an import. Cost is under $100.00. I wonder if that square is as accurate as they spec it out to be; at least Starrett gives the proper specs for the item on their site. Epstein's Pec Indian squares just say "true right angles" or some such nonsense. Caveat Emptor ...


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## pstemari (Apr 16, 2017)

I dropped HJE a email asking about the PEC COO. I did notice that most of the PEC items are listed as closeouts on HJE's site.


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## darkzero (Apr 16, 2017)

I like PEC Tools, the few that I have are all US made. I don't own any of their squares though. Had no idea they had import stuff, I thought all PEC tools were made in the USA. 

HJE is like one of those surplus stores that aquires inventory for cheap & passes on the savings. They are not a PEC distributor. Some of their PEC inventory are blems, PEC blems have the PEC name scratched out.

PEC has 2 grades of squares. Grade B and inspection grade A. The grade As don't come in sets & they come in individual wood cases. The "India" PEC above is listed as .0006" by PEC. Maybe someone can email PEC Tools to confirm COO?

EDIT: I just browsed PEC's site. Looking at some of their stuff like indicators, calipers, & wrenches, it looks like some of their stuff is made offshore. They don't actually say in their descriptions but you can tell.


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## ddickey (Apr 16, 2017)

Then you have this. Clearly says made in the US. 
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?view=classic&ProductID=2742


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## Ironken (Apr 16, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> I have a few "precision" tools from iGaging and I have been quite unimpressed with them.  They are a set of 12, 24, and 36" precision straightedges that are poorly finished, have difficult to read markings, and are not straight -- all three of them!



I have the 6, 12 and 24.......you are correct, sir. They are poor quality and some are matte finish and some are bright. They now serve as plasma burn bars. Don't waste money on these.


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## EmilioG (Apr 17, 2017)

Ebay has listings for excellent Starrett and B&S precision squares at good prices all the time.
I just picked up a 3" B&S vintage precision beveled square in it's original wood case for $20. Perfect condition.
I think the vintage Starrett and B&S squares are better. IMHO.  My Starrett 6" combo and double squares see the most use.


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## pstemari (Oct 5, 2018)

[oops, zombie thread]


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## Smithy (Oct 13, 2018)

ddickey said:


> Try https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/ and look for PEC squares. I think they're decent.


i just checked them out. some not bad stuff but being in australia US$14 bit of gear $65 freight and that is the cheapest


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