# Need a Straight Edge?



## Richard King

Hi Everyone,

Next week I will be teaching a class at Busch Precision in Milwaukee and they make Straight-edges as well as they are rebuilders.  If anyone wants anything I can get a quote for you.  I doubt they will be cheap, so if your looking for a cheap deal, don't waste my time.
Rich


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## Ajax123

Hi Richard

I would like to get a 24" long straight edge, they make the camelback style for spotting I assume.  I do know what they cost new, but I am willing to pay $300.00.  

Ray


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## Ajax123

Hi Richard 

I just checked their web site and I going to look for something used on ebay or craigslist.  Thanks for asking.

Ray


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## Richard King

I checked with Busch management and here is what they have in Raw castings that will need to be machined:

1)  6630C  30" camel back with 45 angle   $260.00      3 available
2)  3338C  36"  camel back................  "       "           340.00      4  available 
3)  6648C  48"  camel back.............    "     "           150.00       5 available               On Clearance sale now    (Really good deal)

You are getting a rough casting that has been stress relieved 1 time.  Includes banding to skid and shrink wrapped.  You pay for freight.

Rich


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## Tony Wells

Good price on that 48".


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## 4GSR

Why do these good deals happen when you are low on funds!:shrugs:


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## Richard King

I bet you could send them a down payment to hold it.  Or if you want it, I can buy it and take it home and you can pay me payments.  I just hate screwing around with shipping it.  I bet they take credit cards too.   Those 48" are not a big seller for them.  The Foreman said, the buyer could saw it in 1/2 and have 2 - 24"ers....

Ask for Bob Behnke   he is the foreman I talked to.   414-362-7300

http://www.buschprecision.com/precision_tooling.cfm


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## Uglydog

Richard,
I'm interested in a 48inch Raw Cast. This is way ahead of where I am with scraping.
However, Connelly identifies that a good straight edge is foundational to success! 
Would you consider picking up a 48inch for me?
Please let me know if you'd like the $150 up front. 

If you learn the exact measurements of any that you pick up I'll deliver some customized tailed (box or dove depending on my mood at the time) storage boxes when I pick mine up. 
No charge to HM members. If I'm making one box making, then three is not that much more difficult.
Please note boxes will not include hardware (hinges/latches) or wood stain or oil finish (I'll likely tung oil mine).
Likely made from 1/2inch maple. 
Note, I will need exact size prior to building.

I'll be looking forward to a MN scraping class.

Thank you,
Daryl
MN


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## turbotadd

Richard,
I too would take a 48" if you could pick one up for me. Let me know and I'll get you some cash. 
That is a really good deal! Look at the list price for one of those guys...
Daryl, Sign me up for one of those boxes!

Thanks,

Tadd


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## Uglydog

That makes 3 boxes requested so far (+ one PM). Five were available.
I'll be modeling the boxes on a factory Starrett 199 wooden box.
Note, I'm not including hardware or stain/oils.

If Richard isn't able to transport, would a Mississippi Region HM member be willing/able to make a Milwaukee run and save a bunch on freight?
Hopefully, we can score enough MN Region interest to assemble a scraping class! 
Perhaps even learn how to finish a "raw cast" level. 
Hint....


Daryl
MN



turbotadd said:


> Richard,
> I too would take a 48" if you could pick one up for me. Let me know and I'll get you some cash.
> That is a really good deal! Look at the list price for one of those guys...
> Daryl, Sign me up for one of those boxes!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tadd


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## turbotadd

Daryl,
If Richard can transport, I'd be more than happy to deliver out to you. My folks live just down the road from him and I'm not too far from there. 
Thanks to Richard for the initial offer! Pretty rare opportunity. 

Tadd


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## Shopsweeper

I will take a 48" Raw Camelback.  I know what these are worth.

Let me know when you want paid and how.  

I sincerely appreciate the opportunity.

Daryl, surely I could kick in to offset your time and tool wear?


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## Uglydog

Shopsweeper said:


> I will take a 48" Raw Camelback.  I know what these are worth.
> 
> Let me know when you want paid and how.
> 
> I sincerely appreciate the opportunity.
> 
> Daryl, surely I could kick in to offset your time and tool wear?



I appreciate the offer!
 What I'd like to do is for everyone to wait until everyone recieve their box. If on evaluation you are satisfied. I'd like to encourage everyone to independantly make a donation to the HM site. As each individual is able, and only according to how they value their box. I would not anticipate that anyone would identify if they made a donation or how much. Note: I should have this approved by HM site administration.

Besides, we are all in this together paying forward as best we can.

Daryl
MN


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## Tony Wells

Daryl,
 consider it sanctioned. Nice gesture and much appreciated by all, I'm sure.


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## Richard King

I bought one for Marshall and was going to put it in my car and bring it back, but it was to awkward to fit inside the frt seat as the back doors are locked and I can't open them...So it is sitting there at Busch.   Marshall can cal Bob at Busch and will skid it and ship it frt collect or if you have a UPS # he will ship it that way.  I am not selling them, Busch is.  They have 3 left and if any of you other guys want one, call Busch directly.  I am now helping Chris the fellow who was willing to host a class in his garage in Madison.  I am going to help rebuild his Craftsman lathe for a couple of days.   They will sell the other size castings.  You have to call them.  Bush also has some huge way grinders if anyone needs a lathe bed ground.   Rich

PS:  Busch told me they would host a scraping seminar if we can generate enough students.  Their factory tour would be fun fr everyone attending a seminar.  The only issue is the won't do a Sunday class.  Would have to be a 2 days class or Thurs-Sat.  We would need 8 students.


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## Uglydog

Richard King said:


> I bought one for Marshall and was going to put it in my car and bring it back, but it was to awkward to fit inside the frt seat as the back doors are locked and I can't open them...So it is sitting there at Busch.   Marshall can cal Bob at Busch and will skid it and ship it frt collect or if you have a UPS # he will ship it that way.  I am not selling them, Busch is.  They have 3 left and if any of you other guys want one, call Busch directly.  I am now helping Chris the fellow who was willing to host a class in his garage in Madison.  I am going to help rebuild his Craftsman lathe for a couple of days.   They will sell the other size castings.  You have to call them.  Bush also has some huge way grinders if anyone needs a lathe bed ground.   Rich
> 
> PS:  Busch told me they would host a scraping seminar if we can generate enough students.  Their factory tour would be fun fr everyone attending a seminar.  The only issue is the won't do a Sunday class.  Would have to be a 2 days class or Thurs-Sat.  We would need 8 students.



Thank you Richard.
I wasn't clear on the transport situation.
I will contact Busch directly for my raw cast.

The box offer stands for HM Members, same terms. However, you will owe me for shipping.
Please PM me if you want a box. Provide contact and a ship to address.

Daryl
MN


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## Ajax123

I called and talked with Robert at Busch, and ordered a 48" incher.  With shipping it should cost about $250.  So what is the next step to making the raw casting a nice straight edge?  Find a local shop to grind if flat?  Is there any particulaly good way/machine to do that?  I think I am going to cut it in half and make two 24" inchers. 

Thanks
Ray


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## Mr Ron

I know this may be a bit OT, so please don't hate me. Many years ago, I came across a moving and storage company in Santa Rosa, Ca that was having a sale on unclaimed belongings. I checked it out and came away with a 60" Starrett straight edge for $15 and a number of other precision tools; midrometers, calipers, gauges, etc. Everything was in mint condition. If it wasn't for that find, I would never have had the money to buy the precision tools I now own.


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## Shopsweeper

Ajax123 said:


> I called and talked with Robert at Busch, and ordered a 48" incher.  With shipping it should cost about $250.  So what is the next step to making the raw casting a nice straight edge?  Find a local shop to grind if flat?  Is there any particulaly good way/machine to do that?  I think I am going to cut it in half and make two 24" inchers.
> 
> Thanks
> Ray




You should do what you like with your iron.  But I will bother you for a moment and try and talk you out of cutting one up.  A Camelback is an odd shape to halve (being tall in the center, the 2 would be tall on 1 end).

That's all I had really, I sure don't want to be rude but 24"s come up on fleabay now and then.  The longer ones 48" and above are rare bird$ and they can be like a pistol:

“A gentleman rarely needs a pistol, but when he does he needs it very very badly.”
–Winston Churchill


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## Richard King

Marshall said:


> A good friend that works in Milwaukee is going to pick up mine on Friday.
> He has a small stack of cast iron with my name on it already, another 80 pounds isn't going to be noticeable.
> With some luck I will be making a road trip there before I am laid up for awhile from surgery.
> 
> A public thank you to Richard for thinking of us. And Daryl also!!
> 
> 
> Marshall




hmmm let me see ...hmmm what are they charging now on credit card interest?   26% per week sounds fair?    LOL

now don't forget uncle Richard needs to get paid sooner then later.....LOL.

I looked at the Busch catalog today and you would need to do some carving to get a cut in 1/2 and looks good...
I am scraping the ways of a Craftsman lathe......should have it done tomorrow.  I hope.
Rich


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## Richard King

Check with Busch,  I believe they told me it had been stress relieved once already.  When I cast them, I get them high temp stress relieved after casting and then rough machine them and then high temp cook stress relieve them again.  That means heat it to about 1100 degrees and cook it for 2 hours, lower heat to 900 to cook for 2 more hours, lower to 600 deg for 2 hours, lower to 400 for 2 hours and then shut off the heat and let it stay in furnace for 2 hours...then let it cool to room temp.  You can screw around and make a home made oven, but I have found it to be unreliable, so send it to a pro.  They will set it on steel plates usually at the airy points or 30 %.  Some will drill and tap a hole in one end and hang it in the furnace.  I have to scoot...more later.  Rich


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## Ajax123

Well maybe I will not cut it up.  I have been looking on ebay for only about a month and have not seen any 24" long straight edges.  I think I need to relax with the book Machine Tool Rebuilding and learn more about making things flat.   And I am interested in hearing more about stress relieving as is being dicussed here!

Ray


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## Uglydog

Marshall said:


> I can fit a 24" piece, I think, in my heat treat oven, but I don't think I can fold up a 48" and make it fit.
> Marshall



Marshall,
I suppose using my OA torch to pierce a hole in the side of your oven so that you can do 1/2 of it at a time is a reasonable answer...



My 48" arrived today. I ordered yesterday morning, easy to work with!
 With that type of service I should consider purchasing additional items from them when/if the time comes.


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## Uglydog

I'll be starting boxes on Monday or Tuesday.
I want to complete the fabrication of a 2 step flat belt pulley for my shaper. 

Thus far I show 4 requests for boxes:
Marshall
Shopsweeper
Turbotadd
Uglydog

Anybody I missed?
Did anybody not order from Busch, or doesn't want a box.
Did we all get 48inch?

Please send me a PM with a ship to address.

Daryl
MN


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## Shopsweeper

I am in for a 48".  I spoke with a very nice person who works with Bob the other day while I was driving across Arkansas (she was very concerned that I might have my phone in my ear (it was on bluetooth audio)).  

So I THINK UPS has a big chuck of Fe with my name on it right now.

Thank you so much, Richard for finding and sharing this gem (and for a promoting a remaining NA manufacturer).  I hope that all of us have our castings made into an edge worthy of your gesture.


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## Richard King

No Problem.

When you get it, I would drill and tap a hole in the end and insert an Eye-bolt to hang it from the end.   Draw a X on the end on the beefier part to calculate the balance point where you will drill the hole  I have found over the years this is the best way to store straight-edges.  The same principal as storing a ball screw.  If your not in a hurry to use it, set it outside and let Mother Nature stress relieve it.  The old time machine builders would set their castings outside for 5 years to heat up and cool in the summer and winter.  I have also heard Henry Ford did that to his engine blocks too.  While machining and scraping them, hang them up using a rope or nylon strap and take a block of wood or dead blow hammer and rap them to "RING" them like a bell a few times during your SE.  This vibrates the iron to help stress relieve it too.    If you need any other help please ask.  Rich


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## Uglydog

Richard King said:


> No Problem.
> 
> When you get it, I would drill and tap a hole in the end and insert an Eye-bolt to hang it from the end.   Draw a X on the end on the beefier part to calculate the balance point where you will drill the hole  I have found over the *years this is the best way to store straight-edges*.  The same principal as storing a ball screw.  If your not in a hurry to use it, set it outside and let Mother Nature stress relieve it.  The old time machine builders would set their castings outside for 5 years to heat up and cool in the summer and winter.  I have also heard Henry Ford did that to his engine blocks too.  While machining and scraping them, hang them up using a rope or nylon strap and take a block of wood or dead blow hammer and rap them to "RING" them like a bell a few times during your SE.  This vibrates the iron to help stress relieve it too.    If you need any other help please ask.  Rich



Richard, 
Please clarify.
Hanging a straight edge is preferable to a wooden box?
Your wisdom and experience certainly trumps my assumptions.
If so, I will retract my box building effort offers in deference to better tool storage options.
I just double checked Connelly. I don't see that he addresses tool storage best practices.

I am confused about how to calculate the best location for "*Draw a X on the end on the beefier part to calculate the balance point where you will drill the hole*". Please clarify. Thank you.

Hope your blood pressure is improving!


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## turbotadd

You'll have to count me out on the box deal. I've already got a 48" (Challenge Machine) and the shipping costs would take this deal out of the "killer deal" category.
Thanks again for the offer!

Tadd


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## Richard King

Uglydog said:


> Richard,
> Please clarify.
> Hanging a straight edge is preferable to a wooden box?
> Your wisdom and experience certainly trumps my assumptions.
> If so, I will retract my box building effort offers in deference to better tool storage options.
> I just double checked Connelly. I don't see that he addresses tool storage best practices.
> 
> I am confused about how to calculate the best location for "*Draw a X on the end on the beefier part to calculate the balance point where you will drill the hole*". Please clarify. Thank you.
> 
> Hope your blood pressure is improving!




A box is for shipping, not storage.  Or if you need to take it to a job, you put it in a box.   The best way to store them is laying on a granite plate, but no one has room to do that.  Several years ago, I taught a class at Honeywell in New Brighton MN.  Much like many of the big companies in the USA years ago they had a machine repair group who rebuilt machinery and those guys retired and never taught anyone to replace them, so the skill was lost or faded away.  Well anyway,  Honeywell wanted to revive the scraping team.  After our classroom session we went to the area where they used to scrape in maintenance and I said I wonder if they have any straight-edges?   The foreman said.. "there are some hanging in the cabinet over there, No one has used them in 25 years.  We proceeded to open this closet looking cabinet and in there hanging from eye-bolts were 4 or 5 straight-edges.  3 camel backs; a 6' King-Way brand,  a 4' Busch and a 3' Brown & Sharpe.  and some home made triangles..I can't recall the lengths.   We took them out and checked them on a granite table and all were straight as an arrow and scraped to 40 PPI by hand.   Since that time I have told people to hang them from an eye-bolt.   We used to make straight edges and I still have the wood patterns. But I got sick of everyone wanting a deal as they had no clue how much time it took to make and scrape one and complained about the costs. So I said to heck with it.  When we sold one we made a shipping box and supported them on felt covered wood blocks placed at 30%.  The box is a nice idea, but I would save my time and hang them.    Rich


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## Shopsweeper

Uglydog's question and Mr. King's comments got me researching last night when I should have been sleeping.

1.  You can search for a thread titled: "Straight edge storage" over on Practical Mechanist.  This post seemed to start when a member made made a DUAL-use wooden box (both a  stand and a storage box) so it's useful for our discussion here.

2.  You can search for another PM thread titled:"Storing Cast Iron Straight Edges" on PM too.  I could link them both here but I'm not sure about the propriety of such activity.  This second thread is full of opinion, facts (many OT), and reports of practice.  I can summarize by saying that "opinions are varied".  I learned a lot including the concept of "Airy points" and "fifth points".  

3.  I asked dad (retired mechanist) and he said that he used to: "Store it flat side down on the granite surface plate at all times".  This is not going to work for my 30" surface plate and my 48" edge. 

4.  I worship along with a metallurgist who makes his living testing, measuring and certifying metals (mostly for the energy business) and I will seek his opinion when I can.  My 'ammo in exchange for metal advice' program may be need to be augmented with lunches to get this kind of answer.  If I get anything relevant I will post it here.

I think the good news is that my casting is not YET a precision instrument and I have some time to get a plan going.

The question I have is; "What is going to make the iron 'creep' at room temperature"?  The only answer I can come up with is; "unresolved internal stresses within the part itself".      

The next logical question is; "Why is laying on a flat or hanging going to prevent this?".  And I am not able to approach this question due to lack of knowledge.

Both the long PM thread and dad hinted at a book titled "_Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" _by Moore.  My inter library loan clerk is going to hate me.


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## Uglydog

Richard,
Thank you for your expertise, experience, an candor!
I have much to learn.
If someone really wants/needs a box I'll make you one. However, it sounds unessesary and inappropriate in light of Richards post.

Discussion?


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## Shopsweeper

I don't need a box for shipping, UPS appears to be shipping it "commando" if your pic is any indication.

I appreciate the thought behind the boxes, however.


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## Richard King

Its pretty simple to find the balance point.  Lay the ST. Edge on its back and slide a pipe or rod under it to find the balance point. That's a heavy duty rib but I would suspect it is in the bottom mass about  1 1/2" up from the bottom of the flat and eyeball the center of the front to back.  No need to be exactly perfect.    You can also use a c-clamp and hang it with a 1/4" nylon rope to find the approx. center-line too.
If you see any Brown & Sharpe Straight-edges around, they sat on a board with edges around it with 1/4" felt on the airy or Rotation of points.  I use 30% from the ends.  They had  4 little flippers that you turned to clamp the ST Ed to the board.  If I find a picture I will add it.


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## Uglydog

Yesterday I received one PM with a gentle request that I build a box for him.

Anyone else?


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## Richard King

Hi All,

I am reading the questions, but am leaving some of the answers to the students to answer.   I wanted to show you a pic I took at Busch where I taught a class last week and for Chris in Madison, the fellow who wanted to host the Wisc Scraping class and  I helped him scrape his Atlas.   Rich


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## Richard King

I talked to the Mike the President of Busch Precision today he asked me to thank you who order a straight edge casting.  He also asked me to tell you they will quote on  grinding and machining your beds that need to be cleaned up from wear.  They now are switching or going a new route to spend more time rebuilding machinery and working with small to large users.

Bob also said hi and wanted to thank everyone too.  He said they are coming up with a new list that will include surface plates.  They like everyone else has to reduce their inventory for tax purposes.  Mike said the company just celebrated their 106 years in business and will be in business for another 100 years.  It is so cool to tour their plant, if you get up to Milwaukee WI sometime, give them a call.  http://www.buschprecision.com/about.cfm?id=18


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## Ajax123

What is that long bed used for in the photo at Busch?  The one with the indicator on it?


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## Richard King

Ajax123 said:


> What is that long bed used for in the photo at Busch?  The one with the indicator on it?




That is the Atlas lathe bed.  I stopped to teach Chris in Madison to scrape and I helped for 2 1/2 days to scrape his machine. I guess I could have said more then this:

_" Chris in Madison, the fellow who wanted to host the Wisc Scraping class and I helped him scrape his Atlas." 

_Chis had got a quote from Busch of $500.00 to grind the bed and thought the .004" would be easy to scrape off, but he and I discovered $500.00 would have been cheap as I scraped on it at least 10 hours and lifting it on and off his surface plate was no fun either.
Rich


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## Ajax123

The lathe bed looks heavy!  Sounds like a lot of hard work moving it around. 
Ray


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## Richard King

Ajax123 said:


> The lathe bed looks heavy!  Sounds like a lot of hard work moving it around.
> Ray


It took 2 of us to safely pick it up.   I would guess it weighted 120 pounds.  He had a engine hoist, but it took to long to use it.


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## Richard King

Here is a email I sent to a guy on another forum after he asked me about where to buy a straightedge for scraping his Harding cross-slide.

I recently did a scraping class at Busch Precision in Milwaukee and here is what I wrote on another forum.

I checked with Busch management and here is what they have in Raw castings that will need to be machined:

1) 6630C 30" camel back with 45 angle $260.00 3 available
2) 3338C 36" camel back................ " " 340.00 4 available 
3) 6648C 48" camel back............. " " 150.00 5 available On Clearance sale now (Really good deal)​ 
These are pretty big for a Hardinge, but they do have smaller sizes, but they did not tell me they were on sale.  You could ask them.

More info I posted:

 I bet they take credit cards too. Those 48" are not a big seller for them. The Foreman said, the buyer could saw it in 1/2 and have 2 - 24"ers....

Ask for Bob Behnke he is the foreman I talked to. 414-362-7300​
http://www.buschprecision.com/precision_tooling.cfm

Please tell Bob or who ever you talk to you spoke to me to get a special price and tell him the size of the way you need to scrape.  
Bob was one of my scraping students if you tell him what you need he can help you I am sure.

A couple of other options is  other option would be:

Gregory Dermer
2945 NE 17th Ave
Portland, OR 97212

503-805-0680
Greg was one of my students in the Minneapolis class and has some sweet smaller sizes and I think up to 36"  I think he sells castings and machined.


also:
A couple of students bought some from Craig Donges, 8389 State Route 534, Berlin Center, Ohio  44401.  Tele. # : 330 502 0066  about 3 yrs ago,

There is a place here in MN that has used ones called Polar Tool that you can Google.

Some times on those small ones I buy Dura-Bar and make something.  


I used to make straight-edges and have discovered the majority of folks looking to buy them wants a deal and when you do tell them a respectful price that you can make a profit the complain highway robbery.  So to me it isn't worth the time and effort to me .


Rich


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