# Filing a metal block to true squareness



## Koi (Sep 7, 2019)

Hey guys I have been teaching myself bench work for quite a long time and it came to my realization that I wasn't able to file a metal block square i could get one surface flat but I can't make all of them 90 degrees to each other.Any tips


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## wrmiller (Sep 7, 2019)

Back when my mentor wanted me to do this, I used a piece of glass, sandpaper, and a 123 block to get the 90 degree angles.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 7, 2019)

Just achieving six flat faces is difficult enough,  Hand filing a metal block to squareness is a true test of patience and manual dexterity. I would bevel the high side so the lower edge of the bevel is slightly higher than the opposite edge and then file to remove the hump. When the hump is removed, check again and repeat the process.  Once you have two faces square, rotate 90º to square up a face opposite from of of the previous faces and repeat.  Rotate 90º  to square the last face of the four to complete the squared parallelogram.  You can repeat the process for the remaining two faces but should only concentrate on one direction at a time.  

Once you have mastered the square block , you can add the requirement of making a true cube to dimension.


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## RWanke (Sep 7, 2019)

I was told by a young apprentice at Colonial Williamsburg Gunsmith shop that that use to be an exercise that apprentices were tasked with. File by hand a 1" square block, all sides square and 1" in measure.


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 7, 2019)

That practice must have started when Apprentices weren't paid by the hour.


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## silence dogood (Sep 7, 2019)

Here's a little trick that I use that may help you.  Cover the surface that you are going to file with a magic marker or similar. I usual use blue or red, doesn't matter.  Take a square so that you can see the high area.  Take a couple of strokes with your file,  then check again with a square.  I suspect that your problem is that you are over compensating.  This should help and with practice, I'll think you will do fine.  I started doing this when I got bifocals.


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## Koi (Sep 7, 2019)

RWanke said:


> I was told by a young apprentice at Colonial Williamsburg Gunsmith shop that that use to be an exercise that apprentices were tasked with. File by hand a 1" square block, all sides square and 1" in measure.


Oh how's Mr hustlers btw and I didn't know gunsmith apprentice has to learn benchwork


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## Koi (Sep 7, 2019)

silence dogood said:


> Here's a little trick that I use that may help you.  Cover the surface that you are going to file with a magic marker or similar. I usual use blue or red, doesn't matter.  Take a square so that you can see the high area.  Take a couple of strokes with your file,  then check again with a square.  I suspect that your problem is that you are over compensating.  This should help and with practice, I'll think you will do fine.  I started doing this when I got bifocals.


You got it right i might be over compesating


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## Koi (Sep 7, 2019)

Wh





T Bredehoft said:


> That practice must have started when Apprentices weren't paid by the hour.


What do you mean.


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 7, 2019)

Koi said:


> What do you mean?



At one time,   apprentices were  taken by the master to live with him, 24-7. They worked when they worked, on whatever he had them  work on. no pay, probably only room and board. 

So any time spent on filing cubes was time well spent, but not rewarded by income. After all, he had them for 6 years.


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## NortonDommi (Sep 8, 2019)

I got paid all during my apprenticeship and making a square block was a 1st year test, We were encouraged to do rabbits in our lunchtime and if the shop was open and we weren't officially working we were allowed to come in and do our own projects. The use of draw-filing is a good way to finish as it removes very little material with a single cut file.  Use a micrometer regularly to check across faces dimensions.  A good solid vise with square jaws is a must.
  Have a look at some of Clicksprings videos - he's even made his own files just to show how!








						Clickspring
					

I'm Chris from Clickspring, and I create home machine shop project videos with a focus on clock making technology. Join me as I make an authentic replica of ...




					www.youtube.com


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## NortonDommi (Sep 8, 2019)

This is a good site: http://americanmadefiles.blogspot.com
  Download Nicholson 1878 A Treatise on Files and Rasps:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzJxodHACRRuMDVkaXZISm1Zdk0/view   which pretty much tells you everything you need to know.


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 8, 2019)

Used To be common practice for apprentices. When I started in 1961 we were given a few basic lessons on using a file a square and a micrometer. Then we got a steel block 1 1/8th" on all sides. this was just 1 1/8th" square bar off the saw, we had to supply our own files, square and micrometer, we were told what to get. If we couldn't produce a 1.000" square within two weeks our apprenticeship was cancelled. 

It's just practice, practice, practice, and then more practice. Start on one side get it flat and roughly square with adjacent sides, then move to an adjacent side and get it flat and square, and keep going. The trick is to learn to file flat, until you can do that there is no point going any further.

good luck.


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## Koi (Sep 8, 2019)

NortonDommi said:


> I got paid all during my apprenticeship and making a square block was a 1st year test, We were encouraged to do rabbits in our lunchtime and if the shop was open and we weren't officially working we were allowed to come in and do our own projects. The use of draw-filing is a good way to finish as it removes very little material with a single cut file.  Use a micrometer regularly to check across faces dimensions.  A good solid vise with square jaws is a must.
> Have a look at some of Clicksprings videos - he's even made his own files just to show how!
> 
> 
> ...


Seen that before and he is awesome.


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## Koi (Sep 8, 2019)

Downunder Bob said:


> Used To be common practice for apprentices. When I started in 1961 we were given a few basic lessons on using a file a square and a micrometer. Then we got a steel block 1 1/8th" on all sides. this was just 1 1/8th" square bar off the saw, we had to supply our own files, square and micrometer, we were told what to get. If we couldn't produce a 1.000" square within two weeks our apprenticeship was cancelled.
> 
> It's just practice, practice, practice, and then more practice. Start on one side get it flat and roughly square with adjacent sides, then move to an adjacent side and get it flat and square, and keep going. The trick is to learn to file flat, until you can do that there is no point going any further.
> 
> good luck.


What a cruel reality btw did you made the square


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## mikey (Sep 8, 2019)

I've been filing for a little while now, although I've never been an apprentice before. Before I had a lathe and mill, I had files and hacksaws and made do. I learned a few things early on:

A good solid vise is important. It is also important that it be mounted on a bench at the right height for the work you're doing. I have 7 vises in my shop, 3 of which are used for filing. The biggest and lowest one (a nice Charles Parker vise) is below my elbow height so I can lock my arms to my body and use my legs and body weight to lean into a roughing cut; this one is for when I need to remove a lot of material. My Prentiss vise is mounted at about elbow height so I can use my arms in a natural stroke without tiring too much. My Wilton bullet vise is mounted high and is used for fine, light work. It is mounted high so I can see where my file is touching the work. 
It is important that you know how your body and arms move. Each of us has a stroke, a natural angle when we move along our own lines of movement. You have to figure out what yours is and use it. You also have an effective stroke where you can control the angle of the file; go beyond it and the file will tip. Know what your effective stroke is.
Related to the above, I tend to level the top of the work on my big vise because I use my body to move. On my mid sized vise and smaller vise, I tend to put the top of the work with the farthest end tipped slightly down because my stroke makes me dip at the end of the stroke. I'm sure other folks do it different but this lets me file flatter.
You have to see what you're filing in order to file it. More specifically, you have to know where you want the file to cut. Sometimes you want to hit the whole surface, sometimes only in one spot, and sometimes you want to hit one spot at an angle. Learn to see where you want the file to cut and then learn to put the file there.
The way you hold a file matters. Grabbing a handful of handle and nose works for rough work when you're removing a lot of material but it doesn't work when doing fine work. Learn to grip with the last three fingers of your hand and then learn to guide the angle of the file with your thumb and forefinger; this is how you make the file cut at the angle you need it to cut. The lighter the work, the lighter the touch at the front of the file.
I tend to stroke at right angles to the cut of the file's teeth. This seems to cut better for me than using a lot of downward pressure. The harder I bear down, the less flat the surface gets so I try to avoid excessive pressure and I let the file cut. Pretty sure this has to do with bending the file with pressure but I admit that sometimes pressure is what's needed, especially when roughing ugly.
Listen to NortonDommi and learn to drawfile and learn which file to drawfile with. This is important because it allows you to sight along the top of the work and the file at the same time. There are times when you have to get the work flat and drawfiling will help you do that quickly. A single cut bastard file and a clear idea of what needs to be taken down will get the work flat really fast when drawfiled. A double cut file, used with a fine touch, will help you fine tune a surface and produce a nice finish.
Practice, practice, practice. And understand that perfection is not going to happen but tolerances will allow you to get really close. I'm guessing that nobody produced a 1" square, +/- 0.0000", apprentice or journeyman, but within 0.005 - 0.010", yeah, that can be done.
I made a knurling tool with zero clearance between the side plates and the arms. In order to get the arms to move freely but with no discernible side play, I drawfiled the inside of both plates. Got her done in a few minutes ... because of the 40 years of filing that went before.

Stick with it and it will come. This is a skill that is all but dead nowadays but in a hobby shop, yeah, we filing!


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 8, 2019)

Koi said:


> What a cruel reality btw did you made the square



It wasn't really a cruel reality, it was just reality. The logic was that if you couldn't make it in two weeks, you would never make a good toolmaker. Out of five apprentices in my intake year four of us got it easily in 4 to 5 days, the fifth guy struggled, he just got in the full two weeks but he had a lot of help.The company kept him on, but regretted it, he graduated, but only just and never made a good tradesman, In fact at the end of his apprenticeship he quit and joined the army.

No we didn't have to make our own square, they were bought proper engineers square, but yes I got the block square at the end of the first week. The first couple of days were awful but you just persevere and all of a sudden it just falls into place.


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## Koi (Sep 8, 2019)

mikey said:


> I've been filing for a little while now, although I've never been an apprentice before. Before I had a lathe and mill, I had files and hacksaws and made do. I learned a few things early on:
> 
> A good solid vise is important. It is also important that it be mounted on a bench at the right height for the work you're doing. I have 7 vises in my shop, 3 of which are used for filing. The biggest and lowest one (a nice Charles Parker vise) is below my elbow height so I can lock my arms to my body and use my legs and body weight to lean into a roughing cut; this one is for when I need to remove a lot of material. My Prentiss vise is mounted at about elbow height so I can use my arms in a natural stroke without tiring too much. My Wilton bullet vise is mounted high and is used for fine, light work. It is mounted high so I can see where my file is touching the work.
> It is important that you know how your body and arms move. Each of us has a stroke, a natural angle when we move along our own lines of movement. You have to figure out what yours is and use it. You also have an effective stroke where you can control the angle of the file; go beyond it and the file will tip. Know what your effective stroke is.
> ...


I don't really need it to be the flattest 90 degrees i just need it to be perfect when I bring my square try ruler to it.My way of doing it is titling the file so that when I file it the surface will confine to it eventually.


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## Koi (Sep 8, 2019)

Downunder Bob said:


> It wasn't really a cruel reality, it was just reality. The logic was that if you couldn't make it in two weeks, you would never make a good toolmaker. Out of five apprentices in my intake year four of us got it easily in 4 to 5 days, the fifth guy struggled, he just got in the full two weeks but he had a lot of help.The company kept him on, but regretted it, he graduated, but only just and never made a good tradesman, In fact at the end of his apprenticeship he quit and joined the army.
> 
> No we didn't have to make our own square, they were bought proper engineers square, but yes I got the block square at the end of the first week. The first couple of days were awful but you just persevere and all of a sudden it just falls into place.


I was Hoping that after mastering the bench work I hope I can use it to make simple mechanism for my car modification (I'm quite a car guy you know.


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## Winegrower (Sep 8, 2019)

I can’t file a metal block square and I don’t want to, either.


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## Flyinfool (Sep 8, 2019)

I never even thought to try to make a square with a file. I bought machines so that I did not have to file anymore. 
To me filing falls into the realm of artistic ability. ALL of my artistic ability can be poured into a thimble with a LOT of room left over. I spent all of my adult life as an engineer / draftsman. I still can not draw even a semi straight line to save my life without the help of a straight edge. 
I do not try to make much of anything that requires it to be pretty, Pretty is not in my tool box.


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## ptsmith (Sep 8, 2019)

I don't have a need nor desire to file a steel block square, in fact I that's sounds like an extremely unenjoyable project. But if you're enjoying it that's all that matters.


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## ACHiPo (Sep 8, 2019)

Downunder Bob said:


> It wasn't really a cruel reality, it was just reality. The logic was that if you couldn't make it in two weeks, you would never make a good toolmaker. Out of five apprentices in my intake year four of us got it easily in 4 to 5 days, the fifth guy struggled, he just got in the full two weeks but he had a lot of help.The company kept him on, but regretted it, he graduated, but only just and never made a good tradesman, In fact at the end of his apprenticeship he quit and joined the army.
> 
> No we didn't have to make our own square, they were bought proper engineers square, but yes I got the block square at the end of the first week. The first couple of days were awful but you just persevere and all of a sudden it just falls into place.



My former father in law was an engineer trained in Germany in the early 50s.  I remember him telling me that one of his first tasks was to make a rectangular brass hammer head using only hand tools and it had to be filed to tolerance including all angles being within tolerance of 90.

I can see the value in going through the process as an apprentice, especially as an engineer that will be designing parts to be manufactured, but I'm not too eager to run out to the shop and give it a go myself.


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## Koi (Sep 8, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> I never even thought to try to make a square with a file. I bought machines so that I did not have to file anymore.
> To me filing falls into the realm of artistic ability. ALL of my artistic ability can be poured into a thimble with a LOT of room left over. I spent all of my adult life as an engineer / draftsman. I still can not draw even a semi straight line to save my life without the help of a straight edge.
> I do not try to make much of anything that requires it to be pretty, Pretty is not in my tool box.


Well for me it's about making the most precise thing with only hand tools and how sophisticated can I get and learning the lost art of metal cold working


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## MrWhoopee (Sep 9, 2019)

When I was studying machine shop at the Junior College, one of our first projects was a parallel jaw clamp. We were only allowed to use a hacksaw, files and a drill press to make the jaws. Harry tried to make us feel better by describing the poor German apprentices who had to file a cube.


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## bollie7 (Sep 9, 2019)

When I started my apprenticeship in 1974, I can't remember having to file a block like that (might have done though). I can remember doing an exercise that was made from 6 or 8mm thick X 75mm flat blackbar. It had to be cut with a hacksaw and then filed so that it looked like a letter "E". Then we had to make the mating part so that when it went together it became a square (or rectangle) It had to fit both ways and no light showing through the joins when held up to the light. Plus both sides had to be flat. That was pretty challenging for a 16yo kid. Most of us (there were about 16 of us in that years apprentice intake) managed to do it after a while but it was hard going. Especially in the middle of summer, with brand new overalls and work boots on and standing in the sun in the afternoon. (The door to the workshop faced the west and it was open all day and of course thats where the filing benches were) 
I couldn't file something like that now if my life depended on it. I admire those who wish to learn this as a hobby. 
Thinking back now, I must have been really keen to be a fitter and machinist. With hindsight I should have got a job as a clerk somewhere. I would have earned a lot more money over the years and not knocked my body around. hmmm.
peter


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

bollie7 said:


> When I started my apprenticeship in 1974, I can't remember having to file a block like that (might have done though). I can remember doing an exercise that was made from 6 or 8mm thick X 75mm flat blackbar. It had to be cut with a hacksaw and then filed so that it looked like a letter "E". Then we had to make the mating part so that when it went together it became a square (or rectangle) It had to fit both ways and no light showing through the joins when held up to the light. Plus both sides had to be flat. That was pretty challenging for a 16yo kid. Most of us (there were about 16 of us in that years apprentice intake) managed to do it after a while but it was hard going. Especially in the middle of summer, with brand new overalls and work boots on and standing in the sun in the afternoon. (The door to the workshop faced the west and it was open all day and of course thats where the filing benches were)
> I couldn't file something like that now if my life depended on it. I admire those who wish to learn this as a hobby.
> Thinking back now, I must have been really keen to be a fitter and machinist. With hindsight I should have got a job as a clerk somewhere. I would have earned a lot more money over the years and not knocked my body around. hmmm.
> peter


I'm 18 now does that mean I'm worst than you :-(


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## bollie7 (Sep 10, 2019)

Koi said:


> I'm 18 now does that mean I'm worst than you :-(


Dunno mate. Depends on what you mean by worse I suppose.  As I've got older and had more life experience (some of which I wish I had not had), what is important to me has changed a lot since I was your age. I look at some of the stuff I have in my shed that I've had for more than 35 years and never used. I'm starting to realise a lot of it I never will use.
When I was your age I was always working on something. Id spend my work days fixing machinery and then come home and work on more machinery etc. Loved it. 
So if you love working on things and making things etc then go for it. There's not as many young people these days interested in doing that. 
Take care
peter


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## silence dogood (Sep 10, 2019)

After over 50 years, I will still use a file for three reasons.  On certain jobs, it is far quicker to clamp the work in a vise, file it than mill it.  It keeps me in practice.  And I actually enjoy it.  Now here is something that should help you.  Keep that file clean as you use it. So keep a file card near by and use it often.  A little burr embedded in your file can  scratch your work big time. It can take quite a few strokes to get it out and may end up throwing your dimension and the flatness off.


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## C-Bag (Sep 10, 2019)

I think it's funny the one apprentice I ever met lives down the street from me and is in his 80's. He apprenticed when he was 16 to a company that made precision equipment used in navigation like sextant and clocks in Breman Germany after the war. He had a leg up because everybody knew his father did all kinds of repair and my neighbor had worked in his fathers shop since he was 5 so when I asked him about "the cube" he just laughed. He never finished his and was worried about it and the journeymen he worked under just growled go put it on the lathe! His gruff old boss never did ask him for his cube. He figured they used it to run off those they felt didn't have any aptitude. He still makes incredible stuff like model ships from scratch and RC aircraft. Almost all with simple hand tools.


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> I think it's funny the one apprentice I ever met lives down the street from me and is in his 80's. He apprenticed when he was 16 to a company that made precision equipment used in navigation like sextant and clocks in Breman Germany after the war. He had a leg up because everybody knew his father did all kinds of repair and my neighbor had worked in his fathers shop since he was 5 so when I asked him about "the cube" he just laughed. He never finished his and was worried about it and the journeymen he worked under just growled go put it on the lathe! His gruff old boss never did ask him for his cube. He figured they used it to run off those they felt didn't have any aptitude. He still makes incredible stuff like model ships from scratch and RC aircraft. Almost all with simple hand tools.


So is it possible to make a near perfect square with a file .I will get squareohobia if it's not possible.


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

silence dogood said:


> After over 50 years, I will still use a file for three reasons.  On certain jobs, it is far quicker to clamp the work in a vise, file it than mill it.  It keeps me in practice.  And I actually enjoy it.  Now here is something that should help you.  Keep that file clean as you use it. So keep a file card near by and use it often.  A little burr embedded in your file can  scratch your work big time. It can take quite a few strokes to get it out and may end up throwing your dimension and the flatness off.


I've been there before realising my file was dirty when my work wasn't pretty.


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## C-Bag (Sep 10, 2019)

I didn't post that to say you can't make a near perfect square with a file. I just posted because the one person I'd ever met didn't finish his. Not because he couldn't, but because they had him so busy doing work with the journeymen he didn't have time. He got how hard it was and I have no doubt he could have seeing the stuff he's made.


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> I didn't post that to say you can't make a near perfect square with a file. I just posted because the one person I'd ever met didn't finish his. Not because he couldn't, but because they had him so busy doing work with the journeymen he didn't have time. He got how hard it was and I have no doubt he could have seeing the stuff he's made.


Is that a steam engine on your  profile pic btw.


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## C-Bag (Sep 10, 2019)

Aeolipile - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




sometimes it feels emblematic of my contributions here, noise and motion but no actual work


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Aeolipile - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By whom you mean.


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 10, 2019)

When I began my apprenticeship in 1971 I was a ssigned to "Walt."  Walt had been apprentised as a tool maker in Germany, (It had to have been before the war, He had children my age, and I was born before the war.) He spent 6 years in the shop, training, and two years, 6 months in four factories on his "Journey." One factory was a shoe factory.  He didn't talk about it, just told me so I knew how easy I had it.  He started me on a shaper, making square/rectangular blocks.  I never had any file training, just machines. Our shop, 12 journeymen and one apprentice on three shifts) was primarily to repair production machinery.


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 10, 2019)

Koi said:


> I've been there before realising my file was dirty when my work wasn't pretty.



Firstly, yes it is possible and not really that hard, just requires long hours of practice and a bit of help with technique, Patience is it's own reward. Filing a cube is not just an exercise in patience. The great reward is when you realise that you can do something that you previously thought impossible, you will now realise that you can also do other things that appear impossible, it opens your eyes to your own ability.

Secondly with the file pilling ie. small bits of metal getting stuck in the grooves and marring the work. Get a file card and use this to clean the file regularly, and then take a piece of chalk, and file the chalk so that the file grooves are filled with chalk then when you start filing the chalk prevents the the small pieces of metal from sticking to the file, your file will cut cleaner and last longer. A word of warning always clean the chalk off the file when you've finished with it. The chalk will attract moisture , especially in a humid climate and will start the file rusting.


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## C-Bag (Sep 10, 2019)

Koi said:


> By whom you mean.


me.


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## matthewsx (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> -snip- He never finished his and was worried about it and the journeymen he worked under just growled go put it on the lathe! -snip-



Not exactly a square but I needed to square up a buggered up piece from the end of some stock yesterday.


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

Downunder Bob said:


> Firstly, yes it is possible and not really that hard, just requires long hours of practice and a bit of help with technique, Patience is it's own reward. Filing a cube is not just an exercise in patience. The great reward is when you realise that you can do something that you previously thought impossible, you will now realise that you can also do other things that appear impossible, it opens your eyes to your own ability.
> 
> Secondly with the file pilling ie. small bits of metal getting stuck in the grooves and marring the work. Get a file card and use this to clean the file regularly, and then take a piece of chalk, and file the chalk so that the file grooves are filled with chalk then when you start filing the chalk prevents the the small pieces of metal from sticking to the file, your file will cut cleaner and last longer. A word of warning always clean the chalk off the file when you've finished with it. The chalk will attract moisture , especially in a humid climate and will start the file rusting.


I use a metal brush though.is there any difference like the thickness of each wire.


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> me.


Oh ok but at least you contributed something than nothing.I think I'm contributing nothing but asking for advices at the same time allowing people like me 
 with the same questions to have a reference to refer to instead of opening a new thread.


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## matthewsx (Sep 10, 2019)

Koi said:


> Oh ok but at least you contributed something than nothing.I think I'm contributing nothing but asking for advices at the same time allowing people like me
> with the same questions to have a reference to refer to instead of opening a new thread.



You hit on something very deep with this thread. Making stuff flat and square is at the heart of what we are about here and filing is a skill we should all strive to be component in even if it's not to this level. Sometimes we get carried away with fancy tools and accessories but posts like yours remind us that basics matter.

John


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## C-Bag (Sep 10, 2019)

Koi said:


> I use a metal brush though.is there any difference like the thickness of each wire.


I picked up this trick and it's a bit of a shocker but I've used a file card and brushes for years but a couple guys mentioned using the end of chop sticks. It was incredible what come out of my old files. They cut far better after a going over. They still clean far better than my file card which is use for a quick swipe. But when they seem to quit cutting its time for the chop sticks.


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> I picked up this trick and it's a bit of a shocker but I've used a file card and brushes for years but a couple guys mentioned using the end of chop sticks. It was incredible what come out of my old files. They cut far better after a going over. They still clean far better than my file card which is use for a quick swipe. But when they seem to quit cutting its time for the chop sticks.


You mean the head of the chopstick or the part you pick food up.


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## C-Bag (Sep 10, 2019)

Either end, the point for tough stuff.


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Either end, the point for tough stuff.


But how does it work, the file wears it off untill a tiny point will push the metal chips out?


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## C-Bag (Sep 10, 2019)

You rub the chop stick parallel to the teeth and it conforms to the teeth and pushes the buildup out. Not in the direction you would file in. You're cleaning not filing.


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## westerner (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> I picked up this trick and it's a bit of a shocker but I've used a file card and brushes for years but a couple guys mentioned using the end of chop sticks. It was incredible what come out of my old files. They cut far better after a going over. They still clean far better than my file card which is use for a quick swipe. But when they seem to quit cutting its time for the chop sticks.


I use a 6 inch long piece of 1/2 inch soft copper pipe, because I had no chopsticks. I smashed one end flat for the file, cobbled up a broomstick handle for my end. In no time at all, the copper is cut to fit the grooves between the file teeth, (running parallel to the teeth), and will push stuff out of there that will amaze you. Follow with the chalk, and you are ready to go. ( Good tip on chalk and humidity. Glad I DON'T have humidity, sometimes)


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> You rub the chop stick parallel to the teeth and it conforms to the teeth and pushes the buildup out. Not in the direction you would file in. You're cleaning not filing.


That's what I meant lol.sorry if I wasn't elaborating enough


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## Koi (Sep 10, 2019)

westerner said:


> I use a 6 inch long piece of 1/2 inch soft copper pipe, because I had no chopsticks. I smashed one end flat for the file, cobbled up a broomstick handle for my end. In no time at all, the copper is cut to fit the grooves between the file teeth, (running parallel to the teeth), and will push stuff out of there that will amaze you. Follow with the chalk, and you are ready to go. ( Good tip on chalk and humidity. Glad I DON'T have humidity, sometimes)


Heard that before using a copper pipe but the guy was doing it prior renewing his file with acid.


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## Koi (Jan 6, 2020)

mikey said:


> I've been filing for a little while now, although I've never been an apprentice before. Before I had a lathe and mill, I had files and hacksaws and made do. I learned a few things early on:
> 
> A good solid vise is important. It is also important that it be mounted on a bench at the right height for the work you're doing. I have 7 vises in my shop, 3 of which are used for filing. The biggest and lowest one (a nice Charles Parker vise) is below my elbow height so I can lock my arms to my body and use my legs and body weight to lean into a roughing cut; this one is for when I need to remove a lot of material. My Prentiss vise is mounted at about elbow height so I can use my arms in a natural stroke without tiring too much. My Wilton bullet vise is mounted high and is used for fine, light work. It is mounted high so I can see where my file is touching the work.
> It is important that you know how your body and arms move. Each of us has a stroke, a natural angle when we move along our own lines of movement. You have to figure out what yours is and use it. You also have an effective stroke where you can control the angle of the file; go beyond it and the file will tip. Know what your effective stroke is.
> ...


Im not achieving space age precision just somewhere at 0.02 to 0.005mm precision


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## Downunder Bob (Jan 7, 2020)

Flyinfool said:


> I never even thought to try to make a square with a file. I bought machines so that I did not have to file anymore.
> To me filing falls into the realm of artistic ability. ALL of my artistic ability can be poured into a thimble with a LOT of room left over. I spent all of my adult life as an engineer / draftsman. I still can not draw even a semi straight line to save my life without the help of a straight edge.
> I do not try to make much of anything that requires it to be pretty, Pretty is not in my tool box.



I know what you're saying, pretty is not in my toolbox either. I can, when I need to make it fairly good looking but In my years at sea pretty was not even an option, it had to work and that was the criterion, and it always had to be fixed yesterday, so there was never time for the finer finishing touches.


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## Tozguy (Jan 7, 2020)

Whether it is with a file or other type of hand tool I have seen craftsmen do amazing work with amazing speed. Their workmanship was a beauty to behold.
I admire those who keep up the tradition of using the original 'cordless' tools of yesteryear.


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## Downunder Bob (Jan 7, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> Whether it is with a file or other type of hand tool I have seen craftsmen do amazing work with amazing speed. Their workmanship was a beauty to behold.
> I admire those who keep up the tradition of using the original 'cordless' tools of yesteryear.



Yes there are some who can, and enjoy doing it , I can, well sort of, but I never have enough time to finish it.


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## C-Bag (Jan 7, 2020)

I've always thought of filing as one of the many stages of hand work, and not the final stage. Of course this depends on the size of the piece etc. And you can't have too many different kinds of files. I can't count how many times my little set of Xacto files have saved my bacon. Most times it's because I'm working on some piece a machine tool can't get into or can't set up in a machine. Like taking a ding out of a lead screw like I had to do on my old shaper. 

In estate/garage sales I'm always on the lookout for odd files because they used to make so many profiles that aren't made anymore. I also find round files used to sharpen chain saws really useful. I have several different sizes of those and fine and coarse rat tail files. I'm pretty much driven to "pretty" because I've already spent so much time on this thing it's offensive to my eye if it still looks like hammered dog doo. 

I'm not sure but my impression is folks think filing is some kind of Spartan affair with some brawny wizard doing amazing things with one file. I don't subscribe to that, I'm firmly in the right tool for the job and you can't have too many tools club. Also filing isn't done by Braille. Good light, good vise or way to hold it, sturdy table and good metrology tools to check what you're doing. I REALLY like the tip of blueing with a felt pen or Dykem, wish I'd a thought of that! Also jewelers goggles even if you aren't old. Being able to really see is part of the whole.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 7, 2020)

When machinists (and others) speak about perfection, it reminds me of the Persian rug makers, who allegedly place deliberate mistakes into their rugs, to honor their belief that only Allah is perfect.  I do not know if that is actually done, but there are enough stitches in a Persian rug that nobody is going to make a "perfect" one:





__





						Deliberate mistakes in handmade Persian rugs and carpets | Oriental Rug Experts
					

Deliberate mistakes in handmade rugs and carpets can be found in most Persian rugs and oriental carpets.



					www.orientalrugexperts.com
				




When I am working in the shop and make an accidental mistake on a very nice piece of work up to that point, I often exclaim "Thanks to Allah!" with a smile instead of using other crass language in the moment...


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## ThinWoodsman (Jan 7, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> And you can't have too many different kinds of files.



An excellent fileosophy, sir.

I have now spent a sufficient number of hours filing that the motion is natural and the results are appealing, and I consider it time well spent. A half-hour of filing will save you an hour of setup time for what amounts to a simple change on a complex part. A few passes in the vise will provide a surface finish in less time than setting up the shaper, choosing and honing the tool, and so forth. Two days ago, I made a part in the basement (V-notched 1/4" aluminum plate) with hand tools in less time than it would have taken me to walk to the shop - at night, in twenty-degree temperatures, over a couple inches of ice.

So yeah, count me in on files!


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## C-Bag (Jan 7, 2020)

Bob Korves said:


> When machinists (and others) speak about perfection, it reminds me of the Persian rug makers, who allegedly place deliberate mistakes into their rugs, to honor their belief that only Allah is perfect.  I do not know if that is actually done, but there are enough stitches in a Persian rug that nobody is going to make a "perfect" one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1, amen brutha. Perfection is not my goal, but as good as needed in the job at hand. It's why I would have had a really tough time with doing the "cube" as opposed to like my buddy's brother who was an apprentice instructor. He had them make useful things like squares etc. I think I posted these in another thread Koi started on doing machining by hand. These are some the apprentice projects the instructor kept and gave to his brother. They could use only files, hacksaws, taps and drill press.


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## C-Bag (Jan 7, 2020)

ThinWoodsman said:


> An excellent fileosophy, sir.
> 
> I have now spent a sufficient number of hours filing that the motion is natural and the results are appealing, and I consider it time well spent. A half-hour of filing will save you an hour of setup time for what amounts to a simple change on a complex part. A few passes in the vise will provide a surface finish in less time than setting up the shaper, choosing and honing the tool, and so forth. Two days ago, I made a part in the basement (V-notched 1/4" aluminum plate) with hand tools in less time than it would have taken me to walk to the shop - at night, in twenty-degree temperatures, over a couple inches of ice.
> 
> So yeah, count me in on files!


LOL, never thought of myself as fileosopher. 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. We get so myopic about machines when it's often less time consuming to just get 'er done with a file. And yeah, it takes practice as anything does. But once you've got the basics like an even stroke it's like riding a bike.


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## C-Bag (Jan 7, 2020)

Sorry, silly duplicates...


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## Flyinfool (Jan 7, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> LOL, never thought of myself as fileosopher.
> 
> This is exactly what I'm talking about. We get so myopic about machines when it's often less time consuming to just get 'er done with a file. And yeah, it takes practice as anything does. *But once you've got the basics like an even stroke it's like riding a bike.*



I sold all of my bikes cuz I cant ride them anymore........


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## ThinWoodsman (Jan 8, 2020)

They say if you can think of it, somebody on the internet already has an obsessive site about it...

American-Made Files


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## C-Bag (Jan 8, 2020)

Wow, that's crazy. It's funny I'd seen some of the logo's like the Enders and had no idea who the maker is! 

Thanks for posting that, what a resource.


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## Hellkell (Jan 9, 2020)

What’s the best way to clean the chalk off the file?


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## Bob Korves (Jan 9, 2020)

Hellkell said:


> What’s the best way to clean the chalk off the file?


Leave it on there, it does no harm, and helps keep metal from sticking.  I have had no trouble with rusting.


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## Hellkell (Jan 9, 2020)

Bob Korves said:


> Leave it on there, it does no harm, and helps keep metal from sticking. I have had no trouble with rusting.



According to someone above it absorbs moisture and causes rust. I live in Honolulu which humidity is a concern. Thank you.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 9, 2020)

Hellkell said:


> According to someone above it absorbs moisture and causes rust. I live in Honolulu which humidity is a concern. Thank you.


I am in the sunny California Sacramento valley (currently raining and overcast, common in the winter, along with fog) and have had zero problems with files rusting, with or without chalk, in my unheated garage shop.  YMMV.


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## Koi (Jan 10, 2020)

Hellkell said:


> What’s the best way to clean the chalk off the file?


Metal brush i do it all the time


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## Tozguy (Jan 11, 2020)

Pick up a pair of corduroy pants at a used clothing store. When filing or sanding just wipe the file or sandpaper on your thigh after every few strokes. Makes it easy to keep the tool clear and cutting efficiently. Corduroy should work for clearing chalk too.


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## FOMOGO (Jan 11, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> Pick up a pair of corduroy pants at a used clothing store.
> 
> And if you can find and old pair of elephant bells, you will never run out of material. For you young whipper snappers, that was a fashion statement from the late 60,s early 70's. Mike


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## Tozguy (Jan 11, 2020)

Right on Mike, might as well look cool while keeping our tools clean.


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## Silverbullet (Jan 11, 2020)

In my first week of vokie our shop teacher gave us the task to do just that . A power Johnson horizontal band saw was available to cut the rough square and a vertical bandsaw. Then only files n vise n micrometer of course . All corners n centers within .001 finish added to grade . If 14 yr old ***** hunters can do it I think you can. Of course that was 45 yrs ago.


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## Silverbullet (Jan 11, 2020)

westerner said:


> I use a 6 inch long piece of 1/2 inch soft copper pipe, because I had no chopsticks. I smashed one end flat for the file, cobbled up a broomstick handle for my end. In no time at all, the copper is cut to fit the grooves between the file teeth, (running parallel to the teeth), and will push stuff out of there that will amaze you. Follow with the chalk, and you are ready to go. ( Good tip on chalk and humidity. Glad I DON'T have humidity, sometimes)


I was taught to use a piece of brass to clean files , the brass gets grooved to match the teeth by pushing the chips out . Chalk helps lube the file from what my old teachers preached. Never let files lie against another file too.


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## Koi (Feb 18, 2020)

wrmiller said:


> Back when my mentor wanted me to do this, I used a piece of glass, sandpaper, and a 123 block to get the 90 degree angles.


Oh glass they are quite flat after sanding on it i placed my workpiece  on part of the engineer square that is flat and no light went through.


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## Koi (Mar 13, 2020)

Btw guys i read a comment on youtube the other day and a comment said that a flat has a crowned side and hollow and he also said tha use the crowned to achieve flatness.


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## Koi (May 9, 2020)

Although this is not about getting things square but would like to show what i did during lockdown sanding a steel cube  to parellel .First decide on a masted edge and then file and sand it .The finishing was sanded though i could have filed it but i realise my files are big and coarse only a fine double cut file was in my tool box but was too big for the pararrel work.Resulting with a deviation of 0.05 near one side if the edge .I could go even further  with the tolerance but ive left my insize 0.02 vernier caliper in my dorm so i used my dads kernin vernier caliper that could only read up to 0.05 only.Im not done with it though still got sidez to square up if can make it even parallel first and then the square .


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## Winegrower (May 9, 2020)

If you hate to file things, like I do, you might look for a die filer.   I found a Butterfly filer awhile ago and man, that is a great tool.   I found a machine file collection on eBay of 17 files, various shapes and coarseness, at about $10 per file.   I can also use a cutoff hacksaw blade for a metal bandsaw substitute.   It’s easy to do very precise work because you can see the file and a scribe line at the same time, and the file stays completely perpendicular to the table.

It’s turned around my whole poor attitude toward filing, maybe not completely 180 degrees, but at least 160 degrees.


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## C-Bag (May 9, 2020)

More than anything I think this exercise is teaching appreciation. Appreciation of those who did precision work without machines so you could make the precision machines to do precision work. Foundational appreciation is not always taught because it's easy to get by without it. We have gotten used to using technology without an appreciation of what it takes to make it and the underlying knowledge of how precision makes it function. Why would you when everything is based upon a disposable world where speed of production is the goal not craftsmanship.

Koi I have to say working that small would drive me crazy because it would be hard to hold onto. I learned the hard way when I trued up a stone I was using to remove burrs the friction would tend to make the leading edge of the work dig in and I'd end up with a domed center. I used sandpaper that was sticky backed, stuck to a small granite plate to do the final finish on the parts I was doing. I had to get used to removing material very slowly. Trading speed for precision. I would be tempted to make a fixture with rollers that would hold the work and help keep the leading edge from digging in.


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## Buffalo21 (May 9, 2020)

I probably could not buy a “flat“ 1” cube, much less file it


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## Koi (May 10, 2020)

Winegrower said:


> If you hate to file things, like I do, you might look for a die filer.   I found a Butterfly filer awhile ago and man, that is a great tool.   I found a machine file collection on eBay of 17 files, various shapes and coarseness, at about $10 per file.   I can also use a cutoff hacksaw blade for a metal bandsaw substitute.   It’s easy to do very precise work because you can see the file and a scribe line at the same time, and the file stays completely perpendicular to the table.
> 
> It’s turned around my whole poor attitude toward filing, maybe not completely 180 degrees, but at least 160 degrees.


I enjoy filing but i forgot to get a fine file small file for this practice work so had to use sandpapers with a piece of steel that i filed flat and verified with a straight edge


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## Koi (May 10, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> More than anything I think this exercise is teaching appreciation. Appreciation of those who did precision work without machines so you could make the precision machines to do precision work. Foundational appreciation is not always taught because it's easy to get by without it. We have gotten used to using technology without an appreciation of what it takes to make it and the underlying knowledge of how precision makes it function. Why would you when everything is based upon a disposable world where speed of production is the goal not craftsmanship.
> 
> Koi I have to say working that small would drive me crazy because it would be hard to hold onto. I learned the hard way when I trued up a stone I was using to remove burrs the friction would tend to make the leading edge of the work dig in and I'd end up with a domed center. I used sandpaper that was sticky backed, stuck to a small granite plate to do the final finish on the parts I was doing. I had to get used to removing material very slowly. Trading speed for precision. I would be tempted to make a fixture with rollers that would hold the work and help keep the leading edge from digging in.


Sat in my parents  office and did the thing air conditioned by the way should'nt affect the precision or would it? Im not dealing with 0.001mm precision shouldnt be a problem and yeah i lear'nt a thing measure measure and measure.


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## Koi (May 10, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> I probably could not buy a “flat“ 1” cube, much less file it


Maybe i dont have any machine tool.I did plan to buy it a year ago but decided to save up ad get the most precise mill and lathe i can get cuz i  do want to be scraping all day though but i do plan to learn it in the future but first filing to fit and precise geometry is my priority.


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## Buffalo21 (May 10, 2020)

Koi,

a little off topic, but where in Malaysia?? I worked there for 3 months, in KL and Kauntan


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## Koi (May 10, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> Koi,
> 
> a little off topic, but where in Malaysia?? I worked there for 3 months, in KL and Kauntan


The sothern side (Johor) im born in Penang.I dont go Kuala Lumpur quite often.


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## Koi (May 16, 2020)

Got my vernier back and its lockdown so i decided to go back and work on the steel block to make it even parallel.This time i got some needle files as well  .After filing the high side of the steel block but still got the reading between 8.22mm and 8.20mm and at some spot the line on the vernier does not line up instead between the 0.22mm and 0.20 line any trick to work with that or should i just invest or make a mini hand scraper to deal with the spot .


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## ThinWoodsman (May 16, 2020)

For a larger spot, I have often been able to use the edge of a file like a scraper, but 0.02mm (0.007 in?) is pretty small. You should make a small scraper, perhaps from a large nail or a small lathe toolbit. Just has to be flat across, and sharp enough for the one use. Make a wooden handle for it as you do not want to be using a hammer on the scraper.


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## Koi (May 16, 2020)

ThinWoodsman said:


> For a larger spot, I have often been able to use the edge of a file like a scraper, but 0.02mm (0.007 in?) is pretty small. You should make a small scraper, perhaps from a large nail or a small lathe toolbit. Just has to be flat across, and sharp enough for the one use. Make a wooden handle for it as you do not want to be using a hammer on the scraper.


What a coincidence i have one acquired from the technical school im in. the tool bit is has a thickness about 1.5cm by 1.5 cm .Since im scraoing steel should i grind a positive angle with a under bevel for it.learnt this from a youtuber called an engineer's finding.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 17, 2020)

There are better people to advise you on scraping (see the many threads on this forum). My understanding is that you use a 20-30 degree angle from the horizontal, and you are taking very little off (not digging the tool into the work). I'd say it is like shoveling snow, but you probably don't do a lot of that in Malaysia, so perhaps more like scraping clean a griddle or grill. Check out "Forrest Addy's Take on Scraping" .

This photo may interest you. I obtained a hardware cabinet and some boxes of tools from a local guy who had a deft hand with a grinder. Many of his tools were shop-made from lathe tool bits, old drills, old end mills, screwdrivers, you name it. Here are a few small chisels I found among the collection. That former drill bit likely is a scraper. I can't tell if those two on the right were originally lathe tool bits, or punches that found a second calling.


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## Koi (May 17, 2020)

ThinWoodsman said:


> There are better people to advise you on scraping (see the many threads on this forum). My understanding is that you use a 20-30 degree angle from the horizontal, and you are taking very little off (not digging the tool into the work). I'd say it is like shoveling snow, but you probably don't do a lot of that in Malaysia, so perhaps more like scraping clean a griddle or grill. Check out "Forrest Addy's Take on Scraping" .
> 
> This photo may interest you. I obtained a hardware cabinet and some boxes of tools from a local guy who had a deft hand with a grinder. Many of his tools were shop-made from lathe tool bits, old drills, old end mills, screwdrivers, you name it. Here are a few small chisels I found among the collection. That former drill bit likely is a scraper. I can't tell if those two on the right were originally lathe tool bits, or punches that found a second calling.
> 
> View attachment 324571


Btw  what does  points per square inch mean? what does it have to do with flatness i thought you scrape off the high spot that has been indicated by spotting blue.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 17, 2020)

It's not the same sort of flatness as you are thinking of it. Consider a bearing surface, like the ways of a lathe. Getting anything truly flat is impossible, so what you try to do instead is to get as many points on the same plane as possible. When you start out, you have (for example) one high point per square inch. The more you scrape, the more high points per square inch you have, because removing a high point results in all of the slightly-lower points now being high points. Carry this process to infinity, and you will have a perfectly flat surface, but nobody has that sort of time - so you set yourself a "good enough" point, say 30 points per square inch, and stop when you achieve that. The "points", by the way, are identified by putting some blue dye on a surface plate, and rubbing the workpiece against it: the number of blue points in an area 1" square are counted.

For your metal block, this sort of thing is less of an issue: you have one high point you are trying to get rid of in order to be able to measure squareness accurately. But if you want to learn scraping, get a surface plate and some dye, and attempt to get the flatness down to a specified number of points per square inch.

Note that this is _flatness_, though, which is different from _squareness_. Something can be flat and not square, or square and not (sufficiently) flat.


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## Winegrower (May 18, 2020)

Koi, I think you are going to be very successful as a craftsman.


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## Koi (May 20, 2020)

Winegrower said:


> Koi, I think you are going to be very successful as a craftsman.


Nah handwork has pretty much no place in the modern world   though it seems useful in a zombie apocalype scenario where machine tools are too heavy  to carry around or have to move around constantly xd.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 20, 2020)

What is obsolete changes the further you get from infrastructure and convenience.

A run to the hardware store can turn into a 3-hour trek for me, depending on what I need and how many roads have fallen trees on them. Being able to make parts saves me a lot of driving around (though not any money).

Likewise, manual machining work lets you bypass time-consuming setups and so forth. I was reminded of Koi's manual-machining threads tonight when I was bandsawing some steel channel, and needed a cutout that was just too delicate for the bandsaw. Cut two sides in the saw, went to the vise, used a cape chisel to cut a groove and some perforations, then used vise-grips to twist the metal so it snapped at the groove. All in less time than it would have taken to set everything up in the mill, let alone do the actual cutting. Files cleaned the part up enough for a test fit.

It's useful to know this sort of thing is an option, and to have the ability to carry it out.


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## Koi (Oct 10, 2021)

NortonDommi said:


> I got paid all during my apprenticeship and making a square block was a 1st year test, We were encouraged to do rabbits in our lunchtime and if the shop was open and we weren't officially working we were allowed to come in and do our own projects. The use of draw-filing is a good way to finish as it removes very little material with a single cut file.  Use a micrometer regularly to check across faces dimensions.  A good solid vise with square jaws is a must.
> Have a look at some of Clicksprings videos - he's even made his own files just to show how!
> 
> 
> ...


A scraper blade holder i made within 0.02mm in dimension tolerance and is as square  as my machinist square is .Had to weld both together too.


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## Koi (Oct 10, 2021)

ThinWoodsman said:


> For a larger spot, I have often been able to use the edge of a file like a scraper, but 0.02mm (0.007 in?) is pretty small. You should make a small scraper, perhaps from a large nail or a small lathe toolbit. Just has to be flat across, and sharp enough for the one use. Make a wooden handle for it as you do not want to be using a hammer on the scraper.


I did use that method with high spot blue i made from ink pad refiller mixed with a tiny amount of automotive grease and it sure made the surface flat .


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## C-Bag (Oct 10, 2021)

Koi said:


> I did use that method with high spot blue i made from ink pad refiller mixed with a tiny amount of automotive grease and it sure made the surface flat .


I’ve yet to use it, but I got off youtube where the guy used cement coloring powder and motor oil to make his spotting tints. One brownish red and one orange. Just haven’t done some more scraping like I expected. I would love to find the water based spotting tint to use instead of Prussian blue but not run into it.


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