# down right disgusting



## TOOLMASTER (May 9, 2014)

http://www.tablesawinjurylawyers.com/table-saw-lawsuits/?gclid=CKHB_8KBnr4CFc9AMgodz2cAhw

what ever happened to "keep your fingers clear"

lawyers suck

and the judge in the first case should be hung..technically everyone that owns anything can sue if there is better tech out even though they were too cheap to buy it.

CAN-O WORMS!


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## Andre (May 9, 2014)

What a shame, not to the injuree but for Ryobi. They sell a product that has safety features designed into it, warning labels everywhere and someone gets hurt with it. It's not Ryobi's fault yet they lost.

Any common sense anymore?


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## dave2176 (May 9, 2014)

Yep. No matter how hard we work to idiot proof the world, nature is going to produce bigger idiots. I don't understand what happened to self responsibility. Far too many people believe they have no part in their own safety, care, support, etc and the courts are going along with their thinking. Down right sad.

Dave


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## TOOLMASTER (May 9, 2014)

what's next? everyone sue because anti lock breaks were not on their car?

btw.I have tried the blade stop saw...nothing like a face full of aluminum and carbide tips flying at you suddenly because it sensed the moisture in the wood


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## Andre (May 9, 2014)

TOOLMASTER said:


> what's next? everyone sue because anti lock breaks were not on their car?
> 
> btw.I have tried the blade stop saw...nothing like a face full of aluminum and carbide tips flying at you suddenly because it sensed the moisture in the wood



And your out $70 every time it happens. But still, your gonna keep 10 fingers.


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## davidh (May 9, 2014)

culling the herd im tellin ya. . . that's the only way !


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## george wilson (May 9, 2014)

You are out the cost of the brake AND the cost of the blade. And,you have to use their dado head,AND buy the special brake for their dado head.

I bought one for work as I had a new employee who was not experienced with machinery. I thought the Saw Stop was a PITA to operate. If everything wasn't just right,the thing wouldn't start. Of course,I wasn't there long enough to get used to using the new saw as I retired,and we didn't use the saw every day. I'm still using my 1964 10" Clausing at home. I bought it new. A very smooth running saw.

We have seen this coming,where EVERYONE is going to be forced to buy the Saw Stop invention. And,it's going to greatly increase the cost of the saws,too. The Saw Stop guy is going to get incredibly rich.


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## Thomas Paine (May 9, 2014)

hey, maybe i should register www.hf-mini-mill-lawyers.com? 

whaddya think?


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## xalky (May 9, 2014)

1/2 the problem is that most of the judges have no idea about this stuff. Power tools are inherently dangerous. All those safety guards that come on the new table saws and miter saws are nothing but a PITA to work around. They obscure the view, and IMO adds to the danger. I usually take them off or don't put them on the saw because it affects the quality of my work when I can't see the mark I'm supposed to cut on. 

Spinning blades and rotating cutting tools are inherently dangerous, certain people have no business even touching certain power tools. PERIOD. Always be aware of where your fingers are and use common sense. If you don't feel that you have the knowledge to use such a thing, stay the hell away, and go take a class first. 

I've been working with saws of all kinds since I was 14 years old and learned under the tutelage of my father. I still have all my fingers 35 years after first using a saw. I've been bitten once or twice, and got lucky both times. Both times happened because I was in a hurry and decided to take a short cut.hew:  Even the best of craftsmen can still get bitten in a moment of carelessness or bad circumstance. It's the nature of playing with things that can kill or maim. 

Marcel


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## TOOLMASTER (May 9, 2014)

egg zackly ...xalky


another one is football player lawsuit for brain injury...the place is going to hell..


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## daveyscrap (May 9, 2014)

Sorry we are already in hell anytime someone can sue for hot coffee burning them and win. Sad part is it just gets worse 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jamespvill (May 9, 2014)

That's what we call natural selection, and there is a reason for it. 

I hurt my hand badly because I was ignorant and dumb, I paid the price for it and learned. I did not blame my ignorance and/or stupidity on someone else and demand that they hold my hand (or lack thereof) and throw money at me for making a mistake. 

As much as losing a limb or digits sucks, be thankful you still posses a life to make something with and don't ruin other's just because you don't know how to manage yours.


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## jgedde (May 9, 2014)

A legal organization probably financed by Saw Stop themselves.  Saw Stop isn't bad concept in theory, but I can't believe one could make a precision cabinet makers type saw that would be completely intact after the Saw Stop fires without any degradation is accuracy.

When I bought my saw, I looked at Saw Stop's offerings and rejected them due to the cost of replacing parts if the mechanism falsely fires (which I was told they do sometimes on wet wood) and because the saws themselves were cheap sheet metal saws.  No cast iron anywhere.

The best safety feature of any power tool, in my opinion, is the operator.  A little background information and common sense goes a long way.  That said, better safety could be acheived by better manuals that not only describe how to use the particular saw, but how to use a table saw correctly in general.

It's obvious one should keep one's fingers, hands, arms, etc away from a blade spinning at 3600 RPM.  What's not so obvious is situations where safely placed hands could be drawn into the blade.  

What's more: kick-back.  I've never seen any table saw manual make mention of where a push stick should push on wood being feed into the saw while using the fence.  The answer, which is well known to any seasoned table saw operator, is that the stick should push on a point between the blade and the fence.

The second thing I've seen a lot of guys doing is using both the rip fence and the miter slide simultaneously.  This seems like a good idea because you could use both to achieve multiple cuts at the same length.  Problem is, this is dangerous!  The wood being cut is constrained on both sides.  If it trys to cock, it binds in the blade and can kick back - hard!  Ask me how I know and I'll tell you I had a bruised stomach for two weeks.  What's worse is I knew better...  Whose fault is that?  Delta's?  Nope.  Mine.  Plain and simple.  But getting back to how to make a cut like this safely:

Again, as any seasoned table saw guy can tell you, the rip fence and miter slide can be safely used simultaneously if a minimum 1" spacer block is used towards the front of the rip fence to position the wood on the miter slide.  Then, as the wood is pushed forwards, one side of the wood is clear of the rip fence before the blade makes contact.  When the cut work starts to clear the blade, the offcut can move away from the blade and have someplace to go besides pinched between the blade and fence...

Now, in my opinion, these are all common sense based on understanding of what the saw and materials are doing.

If I were a table saw manufacturer, I'd include a DVD with my saw with a clever title like "Advanced Saw Techniques" that pique the interest of the average saw owner.  I'd deliver that content, but also explain safety along the way.  Monkey see, monkey do...

John

- - - Updated - - -



xalky said:


> I still have all my fingers 35 years after first using a saw. Marcel



When I read that part fast I got "I still have all my 35 fingers years after first using a saw."  :lmao:

John


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## aztoyman (May 9, 2014)

It's awful that the guy lost his digits but, it was not the manufacturer's fault. I don't understand why some people get the money they do. I've also seen a ridiculous law suit go in favor of a company that should have paid out. More than once. Here's one example.

The shop I used to work in had concrete floors sloping to a metal drain grate in the center of the bay. The design was such that the drain cover plates OFTEN flipped when walked on putting the tech's foot in the drain. There were plenty of incidents and plenty of complaints. The shop still never had any warnings or fines from OSHA or MSHA inspections.

One of the techs finally had a severe back injury requiring surgery after climbing off a large machine and stepping on the floor drain. It flipped over and dropped him in.

The company said it was his fault, he was not working in a safe manor. He said the company knew about these drains and still haven't fixed them. They said this comment proved he knew about the dangerous drain and still stepped on it anyway.

As soon as the tech contacted a lawyer he was terminated. He lost his case in court. Appeal's have been going on for years. He can't even speak to his doctor without lawyers being present from both sides. It's really complicated. He gets some kind of workman's comp money but isn't doing well financially. It's just wrong.

Big companies with big money, power, and political connections seem to have the upper hand. You'd think Ryobi would have won. Maybe cheaper to pay out?


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## TOOLMASTER (May 9, 2014)

daveyscrap said:


> Sorry we are already in hell anytime someone can sue for hot coffee burning them and win. Sad part is it just gets worse
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




like  the cracker jacks lawsuit...no toy 
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...pUiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7KkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2342,5822629


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## Marco Bernardini (May 9, 2014)

I'd be curious to know how much the lawyers get from those multi-million lawsuits.
BTW, did you notice the most of politicians are lawyers, too?


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## dave2176 (May 10, 2014)

I've had my SawStop for a few years now. A friend of mine owned a woodworking store and sold it to me for the same price I could get a Powermatic or Unisaw for. It is as accurate as either the PM or the Delta. It has a large, thick cast iron table,  heavy steel chassis,  5 HP and good dust collection. 

My dado is a Frued, but you have to us 8" dado blade. You can lay the board on top of the blade with your hand on it when the blade is off to see if the water content is a problem. If you are cutting wood with the water content of a hot dog you are using the wrong saw.

Never fired mine, hope I don't but I have used a demo unit that was fired dozens of times and didn't see an issue with its arbor.

My wife feels much better about the SawStop and insisted I go with it when I upgraded.

Dave


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## Brain Coral (May 10, 2014)

I was at a woodworking show last year and was comparing tablesaws. I looked at General, Powermatic, Steel City, Delta Unisaw and the Saw Stop.... The Saw Stop looked to be superbly made and actually was the smoothest of the bunch to raise and lower the blade, as well as changing the angle. I didn't buy it because of the cost, but was very impressed with it.

Brian


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## MikeWi (May 10, 2014)

it has to have been years ago now, but I remember reading a news article about saw-stop that said that they were attempting to get a law passed that would _require_ their product to be installed on every saw.  Period.  It's only for the common good after all...


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## lexus (May 10, 2014)

my dad told me that you can't fix stupid


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## dan12 (May 10, 2014)

Andre said:


> What a shame, not to the injuree but for Ryobi. They sell a product that has safety features designed into it, warning labels everywhere and someone gets hurt with it. It's not Ryobi's fault yet they lost.
> 
> Any common sense anymore?


odds are he will blow that 1.5mil in less then a year............and not on retaining in a new job field,he will be worse off after that,sad and depressed his $$ is all gone + his fingers:thumbzup3::veryangry:

- - - Updated - - -



dave2176 said:


> I've had my SawStop for a few years now. A friend of mine owned a woodworking store and sold it to me for the same price I could get a Powermatic or Unisaw for. It is as accurate as either the PM or the Delta. It has a large, thick cast iron table,  heavy steel chassis,  5 HP and good dust collection.
> 
> My dado is a Frued, but you have to us 8" dado blade. You can lay the board on top of the blade with your hand on it when the blade is off to see if the water content is a problem. If you are cutting wood with the water content of a hot dog you are using the wrong saw.
> 
> ...



does it work if you wear gloves?????????


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## george wilson (May 10, 2014)

A friend of mine who operates an architectural model shop has had many mis fires with his Saw Stop. I think it is from sawing mirror coated plexiglas,and the little metal particles getting into the saw.


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## jgedde (May 10, 2014)

It looks like SawStop's build quality has improved dramatically since I last looked at them.  They look like Taiwanese Delta clones with the SawStop technology added.  That wasn't meant to be denigrating, the Taiwanese saws are quite good. 

However, and let me be clear about this, is I DO NOT APPROVE of their competition killing tactics using legal means and underhanded support of legislation to force their product licensing on everybody.  I will not argue that it is a great safety concept, but their tactics have completely turned me away.  Let 'em sell to somebody else...  I ain't buying.  I'll wait until their patent runs out and buy from some other manufacturer.  Until then, I'll continue to rely on forethought, common sense, two eyes and ten fingers to keep me safe.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop  this  http://toolmonger.com/2012/09/14/more-sawstop-bs/ this http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/45040/stephen-colbert-takes-the-sizzle-out-of-sawstop and this http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100318/1240568623.shtml

I'm very curious what our fearless owner Nelson's thoughts are on this being that he's of the lawyer persuasion.

John


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## Marco Bernardini (May 10, 2014)

jgedde said:


> However, and let me be clear about this, is I DO NOT APPROVE of their competition killing tactics using legal means and underhanded support of legislation to force their product licensing on everybody.  I will not argue that it is a great safety concept, but their tactics have completely turned me away.



In this I'm totally with you, John.
I love safety: I started to use seat belts years before they were mandatory in Italy, and they saved my life once, but this saw is like a car having exploding tires to prevent the driver to hit a jaywalker: not exactly the brightest idea.
I'm thinking how to make a sort of transparent "sliding door" in front of my bandsaw, giving clearance just for the wood and nothing else (specially fingers: wood pushers are free and copious), but I don't even think to patent such a device, if it works: safety must be free for everybody.


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## jgedde (May 10, 2014)

Marco Bernardini said:


> In this I'm totally with you, John.
> I love safety: I started to use seat belts years before they were mandatory in Italy, and they saved my life once, but this saw is like a car having exploding tires to prevent the driver to hit a jaywalker: not exactly the brightest idea.
> I'm thinking how to make a sort of transparent "sliding door" in front of my bandsaw, giving clearance just for the wood and nothing else (specially fingers: wood pushers are free and copious), but I don't even think to patent such a device, if it works: safety must be free for everybody.



Thanks for the good words about my rant Marco.  I like your exploding tires analogy and your remark about safety being free.  Common sense is free.  It's the lack thereof that's costly.

Question: In Europe, are American style table saws available?  I've seen many European style saws with some interesting features for sale here in the states - some made in Italy (the maker of some of the world's finest bandsaws). I've heard that American style saws are prohibited or at least strongly discouraged in Europe.  Does it have to do with the CE approval?

John


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## Marco Bernardini (May 10, 2014)

jgedde said:


> Thanks for the good words about my rant Marco.  I like your exploding tires analogy!
> 
> Question: In Europe, are American style table saws available?  I've seen many European style saws with some interesting features for sale here in the states.  I've heard that American style saws are prohibited or at least strongly discouraged in Europe.  Does it have to do with the CE approval?
> 
> John



Table saws are not my specialty, but I checked around to see what we have.
Apart the usual Chinese tinfoil things, the other available brands are multi-nationals like Makita (http://www.makita.it/tool/26888/MLT100.html) or Bosch (http://www.bosch-do-it.com/it/it/hobbisti/utensili/seghe-circolari-da-banco-199900.jsp) which must have worldwide approvals.
There is probably just a single Italian company still making table saws by themselves rather than just rebranding them: http://www.kapriol.it/IT/template03.aspx?SETTORE=110&FAM=045 - but these are table saws for building yards, not for wood shops.
Generally every farmer here has a table saw made with a washing machine motor without any type of protection, but accidents are pretty rare.
About the CE marking, it is not an approval after a test, but a self-certification by the producer that the tool is EU legislation compliant: details on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking


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## TOOLMASTER (May 10, 2014)

wonder how many house wives lost fingers in a mixer, after all we have better technology avail...a mixing spoon.


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## ric686 (May 10, 2014)

Marco Bernardini said:


> BTW, did you notice the most of politicians are lawyers, too?



And a lot of the lobbyists are lawyer politicians retired from the very governmental bodies where they are lobbying. Ya gotta wonder how many of them have the lobbyist jobs lined up while they're still in office. 
Sure, no conflict of interest there...


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## jpfabricator (May 10, 2014)

My grandfather was an attorney. He told me to never trust a lawyer! I was to young to see the sarcastic iorny.

Jake Parker


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## dave2176 (May 11, 2014)

dan12 said:


> does it work if you wear gloves?????????



No. It uses touch lamp technology so it needs to touch skin to sense the current in you. I watched a teenager testing it but he didn't want to touch the blade with his fingers so he touched his finger nail to the blade. It was happy chewing through his nail looking for flesh before I told him to stop and use his flesh if he felt he needed to test it. Since I've seen computers fail, I will never intentionally touch a spinng blade.

Dave


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## TOOLMASTER (May 11, 2014)

safety gear makes people stupid...


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## dave2176 (May 11, 2014)

jgedde said:


> I DO NOT APPROVE of their....
> John



I do agree with you. My saw was bought before all this battle was raging. I doubt I would buy it today because I don't like this kind of tactics and would have likely ended up with a Powermatic had this dishonest manipulation of law been going on back then. I've heard the SawStop inventor owner is a patent lawyer. 

Dave


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## Marco Bernardini (May 11, 2014)

I forget to add a thing about the safety method I use with my bench bandsaw (I'm still a bit scared of it).
I plugged it into a power strip with a switch, and I can turn it off with a foot: no need to look for the small Big Red Button on the frame of the saw and to move the hands to push it.
I'm thinking to apply a "stop on release" (a.k.a. "dead man's switch") foot push button, like those used on trains, because it is even faster.
The "on" button is driven by a relais, so if I cut the power before the saw plug I don't find it turned on when I restore the power.
I guess on a rotating saw it would be possible, if not yet done, to add a brake like those used by bicycles, with felts pressing on both sides of the blade to stop it faster when the power is cut off: a couple of solenoids can take care of this.
You can use this suggestion for free: I'm not a greedy patent lawyer!

Wikipedia has more about the dead man's switch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man_switch


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## Rapscallion (May 11, 2014)

I'm not a big fan of patenting. While I can see how someone may feel that they have a right to benefits from their "intellectual property", I don't think they should be able to hold their fellow humans to ransom for something that is inherent in physics. 
We all have a creative capability given to us by our Creator or mother nature or the genes of our predecessors (whatever anyone believes), why not just give it back to the world that sustains you or birthed you.
Humanity should set up a reward scheme for innovation and invention to acknowledge such individuals. Holding the benefits back unless payment is made only stifles the progress of humanity.
Why can't we all just be like Benjamin Franklin.
I dare say that it is because we are moving in a direction that places a higher value on money than our body parts.

This post is in no way intended to dissent Mr. Gass and what I think is a wonderful idea.
In fact I think that what he has developed is worth far more than the saw manufacturers will ever be able to give him.

Whilst we cannot afford it, the SawStop should remain an option. Play safe.


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## george wilson (May 12, 2014)

There are times when I am glad I'm as old as I am. I will just keep using my 1964 Clausing. They are banning everything I like anyway in the way of materials. Who gets it all? The Japanese and Chinese. No bans there.


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## Ray C (May 12, 2014)

Sheesh... I just got around to catching-up on this thread and watched a video about that saw blade brake.  Well, it might just save your fingers but, it'd probably give me a heart attack.  


I dunno guys, I just don't know what to think about some of the things going on these days.  It's always good to try and improve things and make safer, better products but some things are going a little too far.  I knew we took a wrong turn somewhere when they started stamping product warnings on gun barrels.  :nuts:  Helllooo, any sign of intelligence here?  


I think the patients are running the infirm asylum. 


EDIT:  It occurs to me that every morning, I shave with a 100 year old straight razor.  I bet some product safety pencil neck is wetting his pants worrying about me...  Good, I hope it drives him nuts. 


Ray


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## george wilson (May 13, 2014)

It is pathetic when every single product has to have stupid warnings. Even a bag of dog food says that detergent will make your pet sick. Lawyers have made everyone to be treated like idiots due to silly law suits.

Ray,you'll have to dig them up to sue them if you cut yourself!!!


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 13, 2014)

I've no particular opinion about this case, but I would caution against drawing too many conclusions about these liability cases without knowing all the facts. A couple of good examples on this thread 

- the McDonalds coffee suit was because the coffee was being served at dangerous temperatures (>80C) which McDonalds knew could cause burns because it had received more than 500 complaints of burns (and settled lawsuits) from hot coffee in the decade prior to the case in question. The plaintiff sued for medical costs for her 3rd degree burns and the judge awarded the extra punitive damages (subsequently reduced) due to McDonalds knowing that it's coffee temperature could cause burns, serving it over 10C hotter than most other restaurants and having failed to reduce its coffee temperature after 100s of complaints and injuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

- American football brain injuries. This one is particularly egregious - the NFL has known for years that it's players have been suffering repetitive concussions, often in the same match after they're allowed to return to the field after their first concussion, leading in many documented cases to chronic traumatic encephalopathy, depression and suicide, yet it has done nothing to improve either safety equipment (current helmet technology is 20+ years old) or medical response to head trauma. The very fact that Junior Seau killed himself by shooting himself in the chest so that his brain could be examined for CTE (he had it) should be a pretty strong hint that something very bad is going on with NFL and even college and high school football (youngest football-caused CTE sufferer is 17 years old).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

I'm all for taking responsibility for your own mistakes and not doing stupid things, but there are plenty of cases (heavy ignition keys, anyone?) where the injured parties aren't at fault (or their injuries may otherwise have been less severe) due to gross negligence of the manufacturer/ employer etc. You're all smart people, base your opinions on the facts rather than hyperbole so you can distinguish between the truly stupid (disabling the safety on a nail gun and then getting a nail in the head) and the not (see above).


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## TOOLMASTER (May 13, 2014)

football player or not if you think you are not going to injure your brain smacking it into things you have already smacked it into things


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## jgedde (May 13, 2014)

TOOLMASTER said:


> football player or not if you think you are not going to injure your brain smacking it into things you have already smacked it into things



Now that's funny...

John

- - - Updated - - -



george wilson said:


> It is pathetic when every single product has to have stupid warnings. Even a bag of dog food says that detergent will make your pet sick. Lawyers have made everyone to be treated like idiots due to silly law suits.
> 
> Ray,you'll have to dig them up to sue them if you cut yourself!!!



True.  Very true.  I have a chainsaw that has a manual with like 6 pages of instructions and 8 pages of warnings.  One, believe it or not, goes something like don't attempt to stop the chain with genitals.  Really?  I'd love to hear the background story on that one.

Another warning is to use the chainsaw while holding the handle not the blade.  Do tell!

John


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## Terrywerm (May 13, 2014)

Ray C said:


> It occurs to me that every morning, I shave with a 100 year old straight razor.  I bet some product safety pencil neck is wetting his pants worrying about me...  Good, I hope it drives him nuts.
> 
> 
> Ray



He's not worrying about you Ray, he's hoping you cut yourself so he has reason to write warnings and instruction manuals for the razor and get paid for his work. Just another opportunist!


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## ScrapMetal (May 13, 2014)

jgedde said:


> Now that's funny...
> 
> John
> 
> ...



This just somehow seemed appropriate to this post (and thread) :biggrin:...



-Ron


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## george wilson (May 14, 2014)

Now I'm trying to figure out what the Chinese manual really meant instead of don't use GENITALS to stop the chain!! Really,I am.

You see all kinds of funny stuff on their products. I saw a ceramic dachshund from China. It's box said "elongated dog".

At least,their English is better than my Chinese!!



I am glad to see this discussion has remained civil thus far. On another forum,every time the Saw Stop subject comes up,everyone soon gets very emotional and angry. But,they are all woodworkers there,perhaps with more vested in the subject.


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## Marco Bernardini (May 14, 2014)

george wilson said:


> Now I'm trying to figure out what the Chinese manual really meant instead of don't use GENITALS to stop the chain!! Really,I am.
> 
> You see all kinds of funny stuff on their products. I saw a ceramic dachshund from China. It's box said "elongated dog".
> 
> At least,their English is better than my Chinese!!




*Limb -> member -> …*

Alibaba is one of the funniest sites where to have good laughs with the mistakes of automated translators.
But even with easier languages, like Italian, errors are always jumping out: I found a program where the "File" menu was not translated in the sense of "computer file" (we use the word file anyway), but in the sense of "metal file" ("lima", in Italian).


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## george wilson (May 14, 2014)

Lima is file in Spanish too. In Greek(which I never use,and am forgetting),file is "Lim"(I think),so "The file" would be "To lim". The to sounds like "toe". I had 2 Cypriot Greek boys fresh off the boat in 1963,when I taught shop for several years. So,I was learning Greek while they learned English. My wife taught English. Those boys were making A's in English,while the American students were making C's and D's. I learned the names of all the tools,and some conversational Greek(In the Cypriot dialect). But,that was a long time ago. A saw is "Segatsa". A knife is "sfheree"),phonetic,of course.


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 14, 2014)

TOOLMASTER said:


> football player or not if you think you are not going to injure your brain smacking it into things you have already smacked it into things



so if your son is playing high school football, takes a bad hit/ foul and is then forced to go back on the field by the coach, whereupon he gets another bad hit followed by months of depression, mood swings and failing grades, you're good with that? Then again, it seems like you're suggesting that football players at all levels should expect to get repeated concussion and generally treated like good ol' Roman slaves/ gladiators, so I imagine that you are, right? What next, don't complain when you get MRSA when you go to hospital because you should expect it?


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## Ray C (May 14, 2014)

mattthemuppet said:


> so if your son is playing high school football, takes a bad hit/ foul and is then forced to go back on the field by the coach, whereupon he gets another bad hit followed by months of depression, mood swings and failing grades, you're good with that? Then again, it seems like you're suggesting that football players at all levels should expect to get repeated concussion and generally treated like good ol' Roman slaves/ gladiators, so I imagine that you are, right? What next, don't complain when you get MRSA when you go to hospital because you should expect it?



As far as football, wrestling or any other intense sport at the high-school or elementary school level, I think there is way too much emphasis on competition and not enough on skill development.  At the early phases, such sports are supposed to be an outlet for kids to burn-off energy, build some muscle and skill -and socialize.  Also, yes indeed, the coach and school administrators should be held responsible for pushing the team or individuals too hard.  In the last two decades, TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) is a well known issue -and there's no coach in this country who doesn't know about it.  

Long before anyone knew what MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) was, I was in the thick of it back in the mid 80's.  Everyone (that I knew of and worked with) trained with safety in mind.  Did we push the envelope? Sure.  Did we cross the line?  No.  Still though, there were always a few guys who wanted to go all the way and the allure of money and product endorsements etc pulled them in.  We all knew what concussions do to you long term as we saw the effects on boxers over the last half-century.  We watched old videos of boxers, BJJ and wrestlers.  We studied their moves over and over and we followed their careers for years.  -And we saw them get dulled, dumber and more crippled as the years passed.  -Yet some people conveniently forget all that when money talks.

Maybe some of the early NFL players didn't think about concussions but, ANYONE involved in any level of sports since the late 80's knows about it and talks about it every day.  By the time you get into college or pro leagues, I think you're on you're own.  The people who get into this at the advanced levels know what they're doing and they know the risks.  -No doubt about it and I'm speaking from first-hand experience.

Ray


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## Glenn_ca (May 14, 2014)

I recently saw a notification for a safety modification of my old Craftsman radial arm saw so I applied for it. I expected to get a modified blade guard in a small box but instead received a package that probably weighed in at about 50lbs. and consisted of many different components including a new table. I can't imagine how much it cost for them to produce and ship this but it was probably substantially more than the profit that they made on the saw when I purchased it over 30 years ago. This thread explains why they did this.


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## TOOLMASTER (May 14, 2014)

mattthemuppet said:


> so if your son is playing high school football, takes a bad hit/ foul and is then forced to go back on the field by the coach, whereupon he gets another bad hit followed by months of depression, mood swings and failing grades, you're good with that? Then again, it seems like you're suggesting that football players at all levels should expect to get repeated concussion and generally treated like good ol' Roman slaves/ gladiators, so I imagine that you are, right? What next, don't complain when you get MRSA when you go to hospital because you should expect it?




forced?
Is someone holding a gun to their head?


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 14, 2014)

TOOLMASTER said:


> forced?
> Is someone holding a gun to their head?



you're dodging the question by using inflammatory rhetoric. If we're actually having a discussion here instead of this being a single viewpoint only echo box, it would be interesting to know your opinion.

- - - Updated - - -



Ray C said:


> As far as football, wrestling or any other intense sport at the high-school or elementary school level, I think there is way too much emphasis on competition and not enough on skill development.  At the early phases, such sports are supposed to be an outlet for kids to burn-off energy, build some muscle and skill -and socialize.  Also, yes indeed, the coach and school administrators should be held responsible for pushing the team or individuals too hard.  In the last two decades, TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) is a well known issue -and there's no coach in this country who doesn't know about it.
> 
> Long before anyone knew what MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) was, I was in the thick of it back in the mid 80's.  Everyone (that I knew of and worked with) trained with safety in mind.  Did we push the envelope? Sure.  Did we cross the line?  No.  Still though, there were always a few guys who wanted to go all the way and the allure of money and product endorsements etc pulled them in.  We all knew what concussions do to you long term as we saw the effects on boxers over the last half-century.  We watched old videos of boxers, BJJ and wrestlers.  We studied their moves over and over and we followed their careers for years.  -And we saw them get dulled, dumber and more crippled as the years passed.  -Yet some people conveniently forget all that when money talks.
> 
> ...



sure, but the suit isn't about the risks inherent in body contact sports as that's self-evident, it's about the fact that the NFL and its teams knew/ know about the risks and ways to avoid or minimise them, but rationally and consciously chose to do nothing. That is the central concept of any of these lawsuits and the key point that people choose to ignore when they read the headlines or hyperbole.

As for the saw suit, that's a tricky one as there aren't any mandated auto-stop safety requirements yet (although I'm sure that there are others) and the safety tech at the heart of the suit is from one supplier only, so comparisons to things like ABS or traction control in new cars don't work. Personally I think it's specious as the plaintiff presumably had a choice between different saws and chose one without the safety tech based on his own preferences i.e. it's a conscious choice on his part and not a lack of care on the manufacturers. Then again, I haven't read the full brief.


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## Ray C (May 14, 2014)

mattthemuppet said:


> you're dodging the question by using inflammatory rhetoric. If we're actually having a discussion here instead of this being a single viewpoint only echo box, it would be interesting to know your opinion.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



Ah yes, not only did the NFL and it's teams know of the dangers, the players did too.  I recall reading many magazine articles in various sports magazines about football safety helmets for at least 20, possibly 30 years.  I'm not even into football so if I know about it, certainly a professional player does too.  If the players wanted different rules or safety equipment, they could have demanded it; yet, the chose to do what they wanted to and were driven by money.  I'm sure some of the guys aspire to be good athletes but at the college level, things change and money is the motivator and athletics is just a means to an end.  -And they were in control of the decision.  In all my years in a ring or on the wrestling matt, we talked about concussions and various other medical issues/injuries every single day.  There was two topics:  How to be a better fighter -and how not to get injured.  I was small time stuff compared to the pro guys but I'll bet dollars to donuts their side-line conversations cover the same topics.

Again, maybe some of the very earliest NFL guys didn't know but any/everyone past the mid 1980's did.  I don't see how any of the later crowd could be joining the lawsuits.

Getting back to the issue of machines, I am fully aware of the dangers of lathes, mills, saws etc and if someone invents a device that stops a blade, fine, so be it... I should have the option to buy that feature or not -and not get it rammed down my throat because the industry was pressured into installing them on every machine -or worse yet, by government mandate.  Why?  quite simple.  Because I choose what I want, what I do, what I need and don't need -and I decide what risks are tolerable for me.  Some devices are inherently dangerous and this is why we stress safety and proper procedure.  When driving on public roads, you need to have a driver's license or motorcycle operator's license -because while on public roads, society wants some proof that you have the skill to operate the vehicle.   On your own property, anyone can drive any vehicle they want, any way they want -and do it at their own risk.   In my shop, I want to use any equipment I want, any way I want to.

Ray


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## Marco Bernardini (May 14, 2014)

Ray C said:


> In my shop, I want to use any equipment I want, any way I want to.



I removed the switch on the belt guard of my drill press because with the second lower speed the belt sometimes touched it.
But I know I must not open the guard while the drill is running and, if sometimes I left the cover open because I've to make things requiring different speeds, I know I must not place my fingers between the belt and the pulleys (my hair tuft Elvis like was gone years before I bought the drill press, so that's not a problem).
When I worked in buildings, I usually persuaded the workers to use all safety measures not for their own good, but to prevent me some years of jail if they kill themselves. Since they are mostly friendly, they understood my problem and wear hard hats and so, at least when I was in the yard.
Once I had to measure the facade of of one of the tallest (and ugliest) buildings of the province, 11 floors, with the guy who re-painted parts of it and had an issue with the owners.
To give you an idea it's this one:


There was a scaffold all around the building. I used the stairs of the scaffold, while the painter climbed the outside of the scaffold using the hinges as support while wearing beach flip-flops.
I told him: «You can make mountaineering!» (many kgs ago I made mountaineering, too).
And he replied: «Are you crazy? Mountaineering is dangerous!!!»


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## TOOLMASTER (May 14, 2014)

being aware and being naive are two different things...most fall under naive then whine about it later....


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 15, 2014)

Ray C said:


> If the players wanted different rules or safety equipment, they could have demanded it



how? ..


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## Ray C (May 15, 2014)

mattthemuppet said:


> how? ..



The same way they demand a couple million bucks a year more in salary....


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## TOOLMASTER (May 15, 2014)

I wouldn't give them a nickel..


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## Jamespvill (May 16, 2014)

Ray C said:


> I knew we took a wrong turn somewhere when they started stamping product warnings on gun barrels.
> Ray



The real problem is that they were too broad and didn't indicate the dangerous end, thats where most of the issues come from. :lmao:


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## Jamespvill (May 16, 2014)

The football issues is something that I've loved to debate about for years. Penn and Teller _Bull****!_ did an episode on it years ago, it was pretty dang informative. 

A large portion of the problem starts at middle school and high school football in my opinion. I graduated last year and even then there was hardly any mention of concussions and bodily harm even though it's talked about constantly in pro ball. I remember seeing one of the permission slips for middle school football and there wasn't any mention at all of injuries being possible. Instead it was all about the bragging rights and glory. When it gets to NFL it doesn't change much; bragging rights and money.


Oh how low the bar has fallen, and I don't think even with all the combined minds of Hobby Machinist that we can build a contraption to lift it to it's previous height. 

It might just be time to amass a massive collection of raw stock, baked beans, and those delicious vanilla wafer snacks then become a recluse, All the worlds BS might just drive me crazy otherwise.  :nuts:


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## Ray C (May 16, 2014)

Jamespvill said:


> The football issues is something that I've loved to debate about for years. Penn and Teller _Bull****!_ did an episode on it years ago, it was pretty dang informative.
> 
> A large portion of the problem starts at middle school and high school football in my opinion. I graduated last year and even then there was hardly any mention of concussions and bodily harm even though it's talked about constantly in pro ball. I remember seeing one of the permission slips for middle school football and there wasn't any mention at all of injuries being possible. Instead it was all about the bragging rights and glory. When it gets to NFL it doesn't change much; bragging rights and money.
> 
> ...



Must be a regional kind of issue then...  One of my sons was a pretty good wrestler and when he signed-up every year, the information sheets were loaded with all kinds of hazard/health information with concussion being on top of the list.  The liability waivers were 15 pages long.  If you sign-up for a gym around here, it's the same story.  I was a private trainer (for secondary protection) and also a Krav Maga instructor.  The Krav waivers were 20 pages long and it started-out with a list of the most common injuries.  My neighbor's kid was into Lacrosse -same deal.

Having had my fair share of bumps, bruises, fractures, and trips to the doctor to address said issues, the first question out of every doctor's mouth was related to concussion, getting knocked-out etc...  If the local orthopedic doctors are asking these questions, then no doubt, everyone involved in the advanced levels are aware of the issues too.  When I visited my kid's high school some years ago, there were signs up in the locker rooms and gym areas describing the symptoms of concussion and other common gym injuries...

Wish I could find it but, I recall a Sports Illustrated magazine from probably 15 years ago whereby, "researchers" were studying how woodpecker birds seemed to be immune to concussion and were analyzing their skulls hoping to define a better football helmet.  The issue is front-and-center in every athletic venue I'm aware of.

Ray


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## dan12 (May 16, 2014)

Ray C said:


> As far as football, wrestling or any other intense sport at the high-school or elementary school level, I think there is way too much emphasis on competition and not enough on skill development.  At the early phases, such sports are supposed to be an outlet for kids to burn-off energy, build some muscle and skill -and socialize.  Also, yes indeed, the coach and school administrators should be held responsible for pushing the team or individuals too hard.  In the last two decades, TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) is a well known issue -and there's no coach in this country who doesn't know about it.
> 
> Long before anyone knew what MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) was, I was in the thick of it back in the mid 80's.  Everyone (that I knew of and worked with) trained with safety in mind.  Did we push the envelope? Sure.  Did we cross the line?  No.  Still though, there were always a few guys who wanted to go all the way and the allure of money and product endorsements etc pulled them in.  We all knew what concussions do to you long term as we saw the effects on boxers over the last half-century.  We watched old videos of boxers, BJJ and wrestlers.  We studied their moves over and over and we followed their careers for years.  -And we saw them get dulled, dumber and more crippled as the years passed.  -Yet some people conveniently forget all that when money talks.
> 
> ...


same for "roids"
we all know the problems
severall MMA guys been caught, and they know better by now
I'm always stunned they do it anyway,thinking "not me" " I won't have same problems others had":nuts:


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 16, 2014)

Ray C said:


> The same way they demand a couple million bucks a year more in salary....



oh, I didn't realise it was that simple or that every player in football from middle school and up was able to demand a couple mil on top of whatever they were making. Oh wait, no one supposedly makes anything until they leave college, so they must be able to demand better equipment by the strength of their debating powers and good looks.

I was also clearly under the misapprehension that most pro football players were earning in the $100,000s, like the 2/3 of the Philly Eagles (they're the closest team to me) that earn <$1m. Not saying that isn't a lot of money, but simple economics suggests that the bargaining power that you allude is a whole lot less for the majority of NFL players than you suppose. But hey, I don't think there's any convincing you otherwise.


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## The Landshark (May 16, 2014)

Just as well you guys dont play hurling over there, it would probably be banned,
The ball(sliotar) is a lump of wood wrapped in a layer of leather, the stick(camán) is ash with a steel band on the end to stop it splintering
[video=youtube;TmzivRetelE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzivRetelE[/video]

Between hurling and motorcycle road racing the safety brigade have a ways to go here, they are making inroads though
heres a clip of some roadracing in case you haven't seen it (large liathroidí required)

[video=youtube;LU-ynRoqDEs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU-ynRoqDEs[/video]


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## Ray C (May 16, 2014)

mattthemuppet said:


> oh, I didn't realise it was that simple or that every player in football from middle school and up was able to demand a couple mil on top of whatever they were making. Oh wait, no one supposedly makes anything until they leave college, so they must be able to demand better equipment by the strength of their debating powers and good looks.
> 
> I was also clearly under the misapprehension that most pro football players were earning in the $100,000s, like the 2/3 of the Philly Eagles (they're the closest team to me) that earn <$1m. Not saying that isn't a lot of money, but simple economics suggests that the bargaining power that you allude is a whole lot less for the majority of NFL players than you suppose. But hey, I don't think there's any convincing you otherwise.



It really makes no difference at all how much they earn or what kind of bargaining power they have -or don't have.  Matter of fact, I was totally baffled by your question in the first place.

No one is forcing them to engage in risky, dangerous behavior.

I was knee deep into the fighting sports to an extent most people would not believe.  Why don't I do it anymore?  Really simple.  It's too risky and after a couple good injuries coupled with the fact that you don't heal faster as you get older, I made the conscious decision to not engage in it anymore.

I could see how the slaves in ancient Rome had grounds for a genuine lawsuit as they weren't given options and were forced into doom.

And no, you won't convince me they have grounds for a lawsuit.  If there is any lawsuit, it should be against the medical staff who treated them after their first, and second, and third and fourth concussion -for not writing them a formal prognosis telling them, that one more concussion will permanently scramble their brains in unpredictable ways.  -But even if they did write such a formal prognosis, I don't think they'd be held liable as I highly doubt the advice would be taken -and they would continue to earn money by intentionally slamming their heads against each-other.  There is a price to be paid for stupidity.


Ray


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## TOOLMASTER (May 16, 2014)

no one forcing this guy...


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...31645948052.2032084.1136241063&type=1&theater


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## withmybearhands (Jun 24, 2014)

TOOLMASTER said:


> http://www.tablesawinjurylawyers.com/table-saw-lawsuits/?gclid=CKHB_8KBnr4CFc9AMgodz2cAhw
> 
> what ever happened to "keep your fingers clear"
> 
> ...



Please don't denigrate my entire profession, or at least admit that lawyers are people, and it is PEOPLE who suck.  

As a lawyer, I try to educate myself about the facts and operative law of a case before I pass judgment, so I went and looked up the court of appeals opinion that approved the award that the JURY made.  In this case (as in virtually every case in which folks complain mightily of an allegedly absurd damages award), it is 12 ordinary people who make the final call as to whether wrong was done, and if so what should be done about it, and they have to make that call according to legal principles that reflect the values of fairness and common sense that we have shared for generations (going back to as early as 8th century England).  

As the appellate court noted, "It is the province of the jury to determine whether the relevant factors, properly balanced, suggest that a product's design is unreasonable." Osorio v. One World Technologies Inc., 659 F.3d 81, 85 (1st Cir. 2011).  It is also the province of the jury to measure the damage done by the "unreasonable" conduct of the defendant.  The jury cannot, however, award damages if there is no reason to think the manufacturer should have made a safer machine, even if a safer machine COULD  have been built.  As the court also explained, "A reasonably fit product need not be a risk-free product, however. Even where the product design creates a risk of foreseeable harm, the question is whether this risk was unreasonable.”  Osorio v. One World Technologies Inc., 659 F.3d 81, 85 (1st Cir. 2011).

I don't know who the jurors were in this case, or what they did for a living, or why they came down the way they did on the issues. But they sat through days (and possibly weeks) worth of evidence and argument on both sides of every question they had to answer on their verdict form and decided that Ryobi's design decisions put this construction worker (and others) at risk, that Ryobi knew it was putting people at risk, and that Ryobi had no excuse for doing better.   Since I wasn't there, and I don't know all that they did when making the decision to award 1.5 million in damages, I don't think I'm in a particularly good spot to second-guess them.


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## daveyscrap (Jun 24, 2014)

That picture is in the town I live in.   Nice   
Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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