# Toys to Tools: Learning not to make stuff.....



## Uglydog (Mar 17, 2018)

Saw this article about the demise of a large toy store. 
The cause reflects a cultural shift in how and what children are learning. I'm wondering if there are long term implications for home shops and industry.

http://e.startribune.com/Olive/ODN/...18/03/17&entity=Ar00902&sk=44F68065&mode=text

"But the chain’s biggest foe was neither nimbler retailers nor that heavy debt load. It was the undermining of the very concept of the toy. For most of recorded history, toys have been physical things with which children play and create, telling themselves stories about the world and their place in it. ..... The rules we made up as we went along, with only our imaginations as guides. That was what toys were for.

By the 1990s, toys had to do things: They blinked, they spoke, they walked or rolled along the floor. They operated not according to the whims of children but according to definitions imposed by their creators. And a piece of the imagination died.

.... nowadays even very young children prefer the touchable screen to the touchable toy. Apart from a niche here and there, toy stores no longer serve any discernible function."

Daryl
MN


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## TTD (Mar 17, 2018)

Sad indeed, but unfortunately, so true at the same time.

I can remember as a little kid playing, or I should say ‘building’, for hours & hours on end with “Tinker Toys”…anybody remember those? Don’t know if they even make/sell them anymore.

Had this very same conversation with my 9yr old nephew on Xmas Day (re: playing with Tinker Toys). After explaining to him what they actually were, he looked at me with a screwed up look on his face & asked why I would want to play with “fireplace kindling”….true story! And with that, he disappeared into the rec room with his new Playstation, tablet & whatever other electronic gizmo he got.

I admit that I giggled at his response, but found it a bit troubling at the same time knowing that this is the thought process of most kids today….the very same kids that will be running the country some day. Kinda scary when you think about it….


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## Robert LaLonde (Mar 17, 2018)

I had an Erecter set from which I once made a roller coaster.  It was pretty cool... until the train car launched off the end of the coaster and all the wheels flew off when it hit the wall.  Well that was cool too, but in a "watch this" sort of way.


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## pdentrem (Mar 17, 2018)

Until we stop programming the kids via smartphone tech, we are likely to have a major continuing problem in fixing and manufacturing just about anything that we use. Just look at the problem any of the trades are having finding younger people to learn and do the work. Even in factory settings where the pay is actually pretty good, getting people even to come for interviews is hard. We are having to hire older and train them but they are not likely to remain more than a few short years as retirement is their next step. We could hire a couple tool and die but try to find them!


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## Ken from ontario (Mar 17, 2018)

It is sad indeed when  physical tangible toys are not interesting to children any more but I'm not sure if it's bad sign of what's ahead.


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## dlane (Mar 17, 2018)

Yup it’s getting pretty sad ,I’ve posted this here before but it fits this thread
Tried hiring the neighbor kid to do yard work , that lasted 10min with his phone stuck in his ear.


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## BRIAN (Mar 17, 2018)

We used to be amused when a child unpacked the toy and played with the box. but now the child cant play with the box because it does
 not know how to play.
B


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## woodchucker (Mar 17, 2018)

Uglydog said:


> Saw this article about the demise of a large toy store.
> The cause reflects a cultural shift in how and what children are learning. I'm wondering if there are long term implications for home shops and industry.
> 
> http://e.startribune.com/Olive/ODN/StarTribune/shared/ShowArticle.aspx?doc=MST/2018/03/17&entity=Ar00902&sk=44F68065&mode=text
> ...



The problem is that their imagination does not grow. Toys help build Imagination. And imagination is what leads to great engineering and scientific breaktrhoughs, and design. So we maybe losing a generation of builders, of thinkers, of dreamers.


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## Boswell (Mar 17, 2018)

I am not sure where I fall on this. I played with tinker toys and erector sets as a kid. Built a Heathkit short wave radio with my mom and dove into computers with the release of the Apple II and TI99/4a. These built important skills that I have used my whole life.  I have do doubt that we loose something when multiple generations of kids grow up playing with electronics rather than mechanical engineering toys.  
However
We also gain something. Self driving cars (as an example) would not be possible in one generation. The advances in electronics and software and all that goes into it, like all other things is built on the past. How many of the people that are designing self driving cars played with their Nintendo on Christmas morning instead of a erector set and wondered what could be done with small powerful computers?  

When people started moving off of farms into the city at the dawn of the industrial revolution, did their parents lament that they would not have the basic skills to feed themselves because they learned mechanical engineering instead of farming/ranching. Probably.  

I don't know if progress is good or bad but I know that I am unlikely to change it and so far, in my lifetime it has been pretty cool.


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## Silverbullet (Mar 17, 2018)

The push has always go to college get an easy job for big money. Trouble is a very large percentage of graduates never do get those high paying jobs. There's no push for learning a trade working with your hands and mind . Nope society wants mindless dupes to end up with a debt so large they can't pay it off. Toys we had as kids were all a push to learn to use the brain and hands to reach satisfaction of building things that worked or didn't. 
I still have a mister machine robot that could be taken apart and rebuilt with a wind up motor. And of course the erector set , building logs . Even the American flyer train everything had a job building experience. Oh and the worst tool ever the  red Ryder bb gun . Yes we hunted for food when I was a boy. The greatest memories of all the male family was hunting on uncle Jake's woods and farm. 
Not one yuppy or liberal could ever live off the land itself. 
Good skill toys will come back they will have to.


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## jwmay (Mar 17, 2018)

It’s my opinion that while the way kids learn is changing, everything will be ok. Or at least as ok as it’s ever been. I guess I could tell an anecdotal tale of my own upbringing, but the point is that there are plenty of young people doing incredible things with their electronic gizmos and gadgets. The majority will always be barely average performers. There was only one Edison, and only one Ford...only one Bill Gates. Societal innovation doesn’t exist. It’s that one driven individual that finds a way to change the world. The rest of us are just waiting for him or her to think it up and make it happen. And I think those amazing, driven, intelligent young people are still out there. Toys or no toys. Then again, I’ve always been a glass half full type of person.


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## Ianagos (Mar 17, 2018)

pdentrem said:


> Until we stop programming the kids via smartphone tech, we are likely to have a major continuing problem in fixing and manufacturing just about anything that we use. Just look at the problem any of the trades are having finding younger people to learn and do the work. Even in factory settings where the pay is actually pretty good, getting people even to come for interviews is hard. We are having to hire older and train them but they are not likely to remain more than a few short years as retirement is their next step. We could hire a couple tool and die but try to find them!



This is quite unbelievable to me. Before I joined the military I wanted to work in a shop. Like a machine shop or something but all the places I tried didn’t want a young guy and a lot of time weren’t hiring at all. At that point I knew manual machining but no cnc. Anyways maybe I would’ve learned quicker in those shops but now I just spend a lot of free time reading and watching how to do this stuff. I’ve built up my shop with machines on my own though. I think a lot of those old shop owners just don’t want to hire anybody from the younger generation. We are out there and some of my friends are going through some courses to learn machining. Of course I work in a somewhat specialized field of work as electronics technicians.


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## jdjax (Mar 17, 2018)

Just the other day I was thinking about when I made a glider out of two 2"x4"s nailed together
 and how that was a good hands on learning experience, but today all I see hands on with the younger generation
 is with a keyboard of some fashion.
My glider is still back at the drawing board by the way, I think maybe the bent nails sticking up was creating too much drag.


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## Brento (Mar 17, 2018)

Yea its very sad. Im one of what they call a “millenial”. I was born in 93 and i even see it now to this day. I admit ive built a computer or 2 for video games and play them to this day. But i also am not afriad to be working outside and getting my hands greasy like most kids my age or even younger. Like most of the members on here i hope my children will want to do what im doing now. Without machining in general this country and the whole world would be in trouble. I plan to teach them the basics of a car so they can learn as i have learned. Kids now-a-days don’t even know the half of the meaning of FUN. I was never a big sports kid i was boring but i still was outside riding a bike or playing with chalk on the driveway or even playing with toy guns. I just hope some of the people my age get their head in order and teach their children with respect as i have been taught and they learn about human interactions.


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## jrkorman (Mar 17, 2018)

If you think about it, it started many years ago - There were plan books with your Erector Set, Tinker Toys, Legos, etc through the 70s and 80s. But more and more "instruction" was added on "*How to play with your toy*" When my kids were growing up (90s and 00s) I threw the instruction booklets in a drawer, mostly never to be seen. I didn't want someone telling them how they should play.


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## Brento (Mar 17, 2018)

We are getting a legoland near us in 2020 and i can’t wait for it to come the kid inside me just wants to go for the day!


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## FLguy (Mar 17, 2018)

BRIAN said:


> We used to be amused when a child unpacked the toy and played with the box. but now the child cant play with the box because it does
> not know how to play.
> B


   One Christmas I asked for boxes so I could build a fort. I got a box about 4 ft. square with many more smaller ones inside the next down to the point of a present I wanted but knew it was toooo expensive for our family to buy. That is a Christmas I have enjoyed remembering for 65 years. Nice !


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## f350ca (Mar 17, 2018)

I think toys have evolved following evolution of technology and society. I had a Mechano set, electric train, bicycle etc, those technologies weren't there when my parents were kids. My kids had Lego, mostly themed to the movies of the day, Starwars etc, computer games and hand held games. My nefews kids this Christmas had two wheeled things you balanced on like a Skegway. All this fits the day. They're learning from technology that will expand their minds. Face it a manual lathe and mill don't cut it in industry anymore. Computerized cnc equipment makes our world revolve. Who knows whats next.

Greg


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## dbq49 (Mar 17, 2018)

Having taught Industrial Technology for 33 years starting in 71, we have seen the direction of the school counselors to send them to college.  Today we see that college is a must BUT 2 years in community college is a must to get in any door.  Kids took our classes because that got them a job in John Deere. They took welding and did not care about a school education (screw that).  Kids that wanted hands on were the farm kids ( imagine that). Kids who took drafting only thought of the school of engineering as a goal, and they just copied pictures from the drafting book.  At least today with CAD today you need to think of 3D and ask the program to show how it will machine the part and fit it to another part.  And of course boys took auto for the reason they always have.  When I taught ladies auto mechanics for adults it was made up with a lot of nuns that wanted to save some money by doing the work themselves.  I don't think the priests wanted to fix the nuns cars for them (go figure).   Today the schools see the Technology as to costly to run and the liability to high.  This trend will be hard to change unless the public sees the need to have workers ready for jobs with the pay that will keep them employed.  Then again we need to see companies that are willing to keep companies in this country.  We just see that everything is for sale when we want to sell for a profit to the stock holder.  In reality, who are buying the companies today (foreign countries) and Trump wants them to invest in our country.  BAD idea.


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## ELHEAD (Mar 17, 2018)

jdjax said:


> Just the other day I was thinking about when I made a glider out of two 2"x4"s nailed together
> and how that was a good hands on learning experience, but today all I see hands on with the younger generation
> is with a keyboard of some fashion.
> My glider is still back at the drawing board by the way, I think maybe the bent nails sticking up was creating too much drag.


Yep. Oak 2 x 4's  , wings of metal roofing from the chicken house. Assembled with salvaged 16 penny nails from said 2 X 4's. Wheels and axle from the rusted out  "Little Red Wagon "


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## Brento (Mar 17, 2018)

I was talking to an old machinist that im buying my machines from and he said now most companies dont even do machine shops now. They are starting to out source the work to “save” money


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## pdentrem (Mar 17, 2018)

Our last hire is a machinist fresh out of apprenticeship and has his papers. Young at 24 and still learning. Knows a little bit of manual machines but mostly CNC naturally. Of course CNC is what one finds the most on the floor. We have a mixed shop with both types of machines. His background is similar to mine, a father who worked with his hands doing many things. Unfortunately he is not the norm based upon what we have seen in recent years.
One thing for sure, as he shadows me doing maintenance he is learning to think outside the box!


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## kev74 (Mar 17, 2018)

I'm hopeful. My son is 11 and asked me the other night to help him make a screw and a nut to fit it.  We had a fun and productive couple of hours at the lathe and mill.  He likes goofing off with the computer, but as a parent, its my job to make sure he spends enough time learning about the real world.


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## Brento (Mar 17, 2018)

@pdentrem im new to both of them. Im lucky i got my job and my bosses are willing to teach me. Bc of my knowledge with cadd and solid models they hired me with plans of programming and setups. Im still nervous of crashing a machine.


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## magicniner (Mar 19, 2018)

f350ca said:


> Face it a manual lathe and mill don't cut it in industry anymore.



Until someone in the Tool Room has to make a part for the broken CNC machine, or you wait a week and pay a fortune for 3rd party maintenance ;-)


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## pdentrem (Mar 19, 2018)

One of the Haas CNC mills had it’s 35k rpm spindle seize this afternoon. Going to be an interesting tomorrow! If it is the motor, cost is near $25k!


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## RJSakowski (Mar 19, 2018)

And  then you have the kids involved in FIRST.  For those that haven't heard of it, FIRST is nationwide program for high school kids where they get a box of parts and a modest budget and, in six weeks time have to design, prototype, and build a competition robot to do a specific set of tasks.  They have no prior knowledge of the requirements and so are starting cold. Although they get support from industry and engineering firms, it is almost entirely their work.  They have team members handling their financing and logistics.  Others are soliciting components  and equipment.  The local chapter has a Tormach at their disposal  and they work with SolidWorks and Inventor.  They create their own control programs.  The end result is combinationof machined and printed parts held together with weldments, powered and controlled  by hydraulics, on board computers, and communicating via wireless.  The necessary tasks could be accomplished by remote control or by totally autonomous activity.

These kids, the oldest not able to vote can accomplish in six weeks what we, a Fortune 500 company, couldn't begin to do in six months.  And keep in mind that this all occurs furing their spare time.  They have to keep their grades up.

I had thought about volunteering as mentor but quite honestly, after a get acquainted meeting I didn't feel that I had much to offer.  Most of them had already surpassed my abilities.  It is a humbling experience but at the same time exhiilarating.

https://www.firstinspires.org/


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## Uglydog (Mar 19, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> I had thought about volunteering as mentor but quite honestly, after a get acquainted meeting I didn't feel that I had much to offer.  Most of them had already surpassed my abilities.  It is a humbling experience but at the same time exhilarating.



RJ,
I spent nearly 20years teaching Paramedics at a community college. The high achievers don't need instruction they need encouragement. That's really what teaching is about. Picking them up when they've failed (and we all do), dusting them off, and sending them back into the game. Encouragement is also helping them to find their dream. And perhaps how they might actually achieve it. Could be helping them find financial or social services that help them see beyond what their family and teachers have allowed them to consider as possibilities. I'm not suggesting everyone needs college.

Sometimes people just need someone to believe in them.

Daryl
MN


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## agfrvf (Mar 19, 2018)

I was lucky growing up my "cool tools" were steel and anything that the wrenches would fit were taken apart. Sometimes put back together. Then at 10 I got a dingy with a 3hp evenrude and learned to wrench. Then bike racing and had a 10year run turning wrenches on bikes. At 18 found cars and built fast and dangerous machines. And now I'm at machining.


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## barnett (Mar 19, 2018)

TTD said:


> I can remember as a little kid playing, or I should say ‘building’, for hours & hours on end with “Tinker Toys”…a



HeHe, I knocked out my brothers tooth with a TinkerToy !! I was about 5 or so, I still remember like it was yesterday.


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## ddickey (Mar 20, 2018)

agfrvf said:


> Then bike racing and had a 10year run turning wrenches on bikes.


Bicycles or motorcycles?


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## agfrvf (Mar 20, 2018)

High end road racing bicycles mostly. The torques and adjustments are infintesimally precise.


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## C-Bag (Mar 20, 2018)

Uglydog said:


> Saw this article about the demise of a large toy store.
> The cause reflects a cultural shift in how and what children are learning. I'm wondering if there are long term implications for home shops and industry.
> 
> By the 1990s, toys had to do things: They blinked, they spoke, they walked or rolled along the floor. They operated not according to the whims of children but according to definitions imposed by their creators. And a piece of the imagination died.
> ...



Interesting article but this guy definitely grew up in a later gen and possibly another world. My first vivid memory of a toy was when I was 5 and we all went in for Christmas morning. This was 1958 and I got a robot that was about 10"tall, all metal, flashing lights, moved on wheels and stopped periodically and waved it arms and when it bumped into something would back up and go another direction. There were cars that had that too. But of course it didn't last too long because me siblings were like a pack hyenas destroying everything in their path.

Toys have changed but not to the extent the article says IMHO. What killed TRU if you look at its history was one financial buyout after another and then somebody with the next great idea. There is a great docu-series on Netflix about the "Toys that made us" i think it's called. TRU made nothing, they were only a distributor and had to buy can carry al the licenses on the toys. Check out what Lucas make on the toys, more than the movies. Just boils down to TRU couldn't compete with Amazon and Wallmart. And the constant gutting by the likes of Bain Capital etc.

My experience is that the real culprit is tv itself. It's the gateway drug to screen addiction. There's nothing interactive about it and when you see the estimates of average tv watching you get an idea. I never was much into tv, even though most kids would come home and watch kid shows and cartoons in the afternoon after school. We had too much fun running amok down at the local creek or playing basketball etc.

There are no shop classes offered at the local schools. The cuts in funding and "every child left behind " made sure of that. And even before outsourcing no company around here had apprenticeship programs,they all disappeared after WWII. So you have to pay for college to get a trade and there's little or no jobs. All the factory work around here you have to work through a temp agency for 2-3yrs and you might get hired. You tell me, where's the incentive ? It's pretty clear working hard is for chumps and chumps get their hands dirty while the truly smart work for WallSt dreaming up the next "financial instrument" scam making more in a day than I did in a decade getting my hands dirty.

I'm such a chump I don't regret it nor stop from getting my hands dirty because thats what I love. But i see the causes a bit differently.


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## ZSK (Mar 30, 2018)

jrkorman said:


> If you think about it, it started many years ago - There were plan books with your Erector Set, Tinker Toys, Legos, etc through the 70s and 80s. But more and more "instruction" was added on "*How to play with your toy*" When my kids were growing up (90s and 00s) I threw the instruction booklets in a drawer, mostly never to be seen. I didn't want someone telling them how they should play.



This is something I continue to be disgruntled with LEGO.  The first "sets" of legos I had weren't much more than just blocks.  You imagination fueled what you made.  The kits now are almost unrecognizable to me.  You almost NEED to follow the directions to make anything and can hardly let you mind roam.  There are just far too many specifically molded components to allow free building.  My son turns seven this year and loves playing with my childhood legos simply because you can build what you can imagine, and don't need to follow the instructions.


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## Boswell (Mar 30, 2018)

You can still buy bags of misc lego parts and most of the "Kits" I have , unless I put them behind, glass, end up in a tub of misc lego parts.  Of course, as my avatar shows, you can just make them out of brass


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## jrkorman (Mar 31, 2018)

ZSK said:


> This is something I continue to be disgruntled with LEGO.  The first "sets" of legos I had weren't much more than just blocks.  You imagination fueled what you made.  The kits now are almost unrecognizable to me.  You almost NEED to follow the directions to make anything and can hardly let you mind roam.  There are just far too many specifically molded components to allow free building.  My son turns seven this year and loves playing with my childhood legos simply because you can build what you can imagine, and don't need to follow the instructions.



Kids can amaze you. My son had his Lego plus some Technics parts that I purchased off ebay. He was still making things into his teens! In the Navy now, I'm hoping that giving him the opportunity to make things instead of just follow instruction has helped him!


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## C-Bag (Mar 31, 2018)

My son loved Lego. He was funny in that he wanted certain kits but he never made what was on the box, never. My buddy's two boys had all their Lego displayed on shelves like models. It never occured to them to modify them until my son came to play. At first they were truly disturbed that his Lego were always just a plastic box of parts he'd dump out on the floor and then have at it. It took them a while to get it. My son grew up to be a digital comic artist and the other two the oldest is an electrical engineer and the youngest is a well known gypsy jazz guitar player. You could say they all make stuff I guess, just not out of metal or wood.


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## Tim9 (Apr 2, 2018)

Not exactly on topic....But still applies since this documentary is about media and consumerism. I'm still optimistic that people will not allow themselves and the world to self destruct by way of the computer. Its just a cycle IMO. 





 Its a multipart video but is extremely interesting. 
Anyway... my optimism comes from the news story of the Utah Law which now allows kids to walk home unattended. 
Free Range Kids-   https://www.cbsnews.com/video/mother-behind-the-free-range-kids-movement-on-utahs-new-law/


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## KBeitz (Sep 5, 2018)

It would have been a boring life without Erector sets. I'm up to 71 sets now
and I'm happy....


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## GunsOfNavarone (Sep 5, 2018)

I wonder what the long term effects of this kind of childhood entertainment, loss of real connections with other humans, climbing trees, riding bikes, playing in the dirt etc...will have on our society in the future.I'm not a huge fan of millennials, but crotchety old guys are never a fan of youth. I'm wonder what they will be like running this country, or maybe their children.


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## savarin (Sep 5, 2018)

Its amazing what can be built with lego


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## C-Bag (Sep 5, 2018)

I'm a big fan of Century of the Self and personally I see it as totally relevant. It's the tale of the rise of consumerism and its cohort advertising, formally known as propaganda. The idea of wanting it right now at the cheapest possible price whether you need it or not even if you have to use plastic has done more to change us from frugal self sufficient to keeping up with the tv Jones's. And it didn't really get going till the advent of tv. But nobody seems to care about the inordinate about time everybody spends in front of the tv and every hour spent, 15-20min is ads.


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## savarin (Sep 6, 2018)

I think the kids of today should play with the cool toys we had to play with.
https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/GilbertU238Lab.htm
https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/chemcraftset.htm


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## stupoty (Sep 6, 2018)

jwmay said:


> It’s my opinion that while the way kids learn is changing, everything will be ok. Or at least as ok as it’s ever been. I guess I could tell an anecdotal tale of my own upbringing, but the point is that there are plenty of young people doing incredible things with their electronic gizmos and gadgets. The majority will always be barely average performers. There was only one Edison, and only one Ford...only one Bill Gates. Societal innovation doesn’t exist. It’s that one driven individual that finds a way to change the world. The rest of us are just waiting for him or her to think it up and make it happen. And I think those amazing, driven, intelligent young people are still out there. Toys or no toys. Then again, I’ve always been a glass half full type of person.



Edison had an inventing factory packed with geeks


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## C-Bag (Sep 6, 2018)

stupoty said:


> Edison had an inventing factory packed with geeks



Yup, and for a short time one of those geeks was Tesla. He tried to bring to Edison his inventions and 40 patents that basically gave us the 20th century. The AC motor and 3ph power, its generation and distribution and Edison refused to see it. And even savagely fought him to keep DC as the paradigm. It's very interesting the geek who changed the world was more or less lost to common knowledge until another innovator Elon Musk named his electric car line after Tesla. If I remember right, just like Gates, he didn't come up with it, but he had the capital and vision to promote it. 

To me for every visible genius there are hundreds or possibly millions who don't break the surface and become known or are ripped off of their ideas. I'm constantly amazed by what I see folks come up with on this and other forums. And in the places where programming of Arduino and computers there are young folks doing amazing things.


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## Janderso (Sep 6, 2018)

My wife and I were discussing this. You go to a Park, the family sits at a picnic bench and they all have their smart phones or tablets. The art of social interaction is affected. I myself am socially retarded but that's OK.
We hired an apprentice technician right out of a local Community College 2 year AA program in Automotive Technology.
I asked him why he went into this field? he said, "my parents thought I would be good at it".
He could not figure out how to open the hood. He did not make it one day.
Exposure to hands on toys like tinker toys or an erector set, enhances young minds mechanical, structural creativity and adds to small motor dexterity. 
The lack of these types of toys and the absence of shops in intermediate and high schools scares the heck out of me.
On a brighter note, I have heard some of the local school districts are re-introducing shop technology shops and classes including CNC and CAD of course. 
Look at the demand for welders, electricians, plumbers, etc. I hope the higher ups in Education are paying attention.
My sons are in their 30's. They both loved baseball, basketball, Hot Wheels and Lego's.
One is an Electrician and the other is a Teacher.


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## dlane (Sep 6, 2018)

When the communication satellites start falling down it will be Armageddon in the developed countries, 
Shooting down satellites will be the new war, nukes are less affective


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## C-Bag (Sep 6, 2018)

Janderso said:


> My wife and I were discussing this. You go to a Park, the family sits at a picnic bench and they all have their smart phones or tablets. The art of social interaction is affected. I myself am socially retarded but that's OK.
> We hired an apprentice technician right out of a local Community College 2 year AA program in Automotive Technology.
> I asked him why he went into this field? he said, "my parents thought I would be good at it".
> He could not figure out how to open the hood. He did not make it one day.
> ...



As a stone Luddite ( which if you look it up, they hated tech that took jobs away from Craftman and made them slaves to machinery. Not that they hated tech) I only recently started to use my cell phone that I've had forever. So this leads me to ask, are those people everywhere I see in public actually doing something or like me just staring at the stupid little screen and can't figure out how to do what I think I need the thing for?

The other day I got an email from a senator who was saying her contact with her corporate constituents has led her to want to push a bill for teaching industrial arts again. While on the face of it, and especially like I had it in 7th grade and up is a good thing for an introduction it sounds like a good idea. Anything above grade school the idea of us taxpayers footing the bill for what in the past was the company's apprenticeship program seems very inefficient to me. Every program I went through was years behind the field. It would make more sense to take in an apprentice like my German buddy down the street went through in the 40's and 50's and get EXACTLY the craftsman you need than have to retrain or untrain everybody who comes in off the street. It would be much more efficient to subsidize the company's wage to the apprentice program than to build and maintain a huge school that would be out of date by the time it's built and staffed. To get a glimpse of what my buddy went through I'm reading the biography of Robert Bosch. Now there was a real industrialist who knew his company was about people and the value of them and hard work.


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## hman (Sep 7, 2018)

I'll throw in 2¢ worth here.  
1st ¢ - I'm very much in favor of teaching "manual arts" in public schools.  I disagree with the increasingly popular notion that "EVERYBODY has to go to college" and get an academic degree.  One size does _not_ fit all.  About the best anybody can do nowadays is to find a community college with a machining program.
2nd ¢ - It used to be that people would work for one company for many years, if not for their entire career.  Nowadays, job hopping is the thing to do.  This has probably done more than anything else to discourage, or even kill, company sponsored apprenticeship programs.  Such a program is a big investment for a company.  And when the newly "graduated" apprentice jumps ship for a few bucks' extra salary, the company has lost its investment.  Unfortunate, and I have no idea what can be done about the situation.


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## savarin (Sep 7, 2018)

Job hopping is one of the main reasons I am not in favour of the apprentice program.
I am a firm believer of full time trade college then climb up the ladder.
The full time training college gives a good training in many facets of a trade not  limited just to the narrow facets of each business.
The broad background knowledge makes it far easier to assimilate new knowledge as it arrives.
Yes it will mean that a worker wont stay in one business all his life but thats what is already happening so the work force will have skills that can quickly be utilised in the new business.


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## Old Mud (Sep 7, 2018)

savarin said:


> I think the kids of today should play with the cool toys we had to play with.
> https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/GilbertU238Lab.htm
> https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/chemcraftset.htm




  Agreed !!!.   Here is what i liked. 

  .
	

		
			
		

		
	




  Also




*Who knows.* 


                        Who knows what "cat Whiskers" are / were. ?





     . And if you know you know what these are. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  .


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## KBeitz (Sep 7, 2018)

I wont give away the cat Whiskers.... I will post a picture of the two set's I have
after someone else guesses what you talking about. I made one set. The other
was my Grandfathers...


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## C-Bag (Sep 7, 2018)

Weren't cat whiskers for a crystal radio?


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## ddickey (Sep 7, 2018)

You could have some kind of contract with the company that you apprentice with. Leave in two years you pay back 80%, five years 50% and so forth. There are many ways you could make apprenticeships work. I would have gladly paid a company to train me in my craft with a contract that after one year of OJT I would start making some money and they would agree to keep me for an agreed upon time after a short trial period. Or you could do no pay for a year. I had no pay for two years at tech school and paid a lot of money with zero guarantee of a job, inf act we were lied to by some teachers. It is a business and their goal is to fill seats. Having said that there are some programs out there that value the training of the students more that filling seats but I don't think that is the norm. 
One thing that is a great value in school is learning the fundamentals and the requirement for general studies has its value as well.


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## savarin (Sep 7, 2018)

Yes with a crystal of IIRC gallium arsenide (sp)


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 7, 2018)

dlane said:


> Yup it’s getting pretty sad ,I’ve posted this here before but it fits this thread
> Tried hiring the neighbor kid to do yard work , that lasted 10min with his phone stuck in his ear.
> View attachment 262592



I fear we are already there.


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## C-Bag (Sep 7, 2018)

ddickey said:


> You could have some kind of contract with the company that you apprentice with. Leave in two years you pay back 80%, five years 50% and so forth. There are many ways you could make apprenticeships work. I would have gladly paid a company to train me in my craft with a contract that after one year of OJT I would start making some money and they would agree to keep me for an agreed upon time after a short trial period. Or you could do no pay for a year. I had no pay for two years at tech school and paid a lot of money with zero guarantee of a job, inf act we were lied to by some teachers. It is a business and their goal is to fill seats. Having said that there are some programs out there that value the training of the students more that filling seats but I don't think that is the norm.
> One thing that is a great value in school is learning the fundamentals and the requirement for general studies has its value as well.



In the 70's there were job training programs that paid half your wage and I was in one for a couple of years. Growing up in the Central Valley of CA where 95% of the work was AG work was always seasonal, low pay and no unions. Job hopping was they only way you could eek out a living. I never stayed anywhere for more than 5yrs and those two that I did stay for 5yrs one sold the franchise to an idiot so I bailed. The other had been sold to a foreign competitor who was basically laundering their image until the big bosses son was put in charge and he quadrupled our health co pay to where half the month I was paying for health insurance. Neither had anything more than a crappy 401k.

In contrast my dad worked for the same company for 36yrs which changed corporate owners 4 times. Each time they gutted the company pension and tried to break the Teamsters union he was in. They went out on strike every time and the longest was 6wks. But the union was the only thing that took care of him and he ended up with a good pension. But not because of the corps. So there is no simple answer just a matter of viewpoint.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Sep 7, 2018)

I had a Mecano set, a number 5 with a wind up motor and a gear set. My poor parents must have really scrimped to pay for those. They were expensive. My rich American cousins past a Erector set on to me. The English Mecano sets were for building machinery, the Erector set was more designed for buildings. I ended up a millwright, chuckle.

For my sons I made a block set, a cross between an Erector set and Tinker Toy . Work benches with real woodworking tools, small ones though.
For their first cars, I got them a Hayes manual and a socket set. One is an electrician and the other a millwright


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## Old Mud (Sep 7, 2018)

KBeitz said:


> I wont give away the cat Whiskers.... I will post a picture of the two set's I have
> after someone else guesses what you talking about. I made one set. The other
> was my Grandfathers...




  Yes crystal radio. I still have a few somewhere in the attic.  Sorry for the derail. 

  .


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## JStarks (Sep 7, 2018)

I have a 19 year old son, bought him a used Camaro for his 16th birthday,that car sat in the driveway for a year before he got his license, I have 2 Harley's because he refuses to ride, I bought the little 03 FXD I have for him after he took his MSF class, doesn't heart my feelings got my touring bike and my play bike. Fast forward to last week, he had mentioned a wood lathe one time when he decided to break free from his mothers and come visit us. Since we hadn't seen him but maybe 2 times since memorial day we didn't know what to get him, so I bought him a wood lathe. It has been a week since his birthday, he finally decided to come out to the garage yesterday evening and join me. He made his first decorated stick, and actually enjoyed it. I have tried his entire life so far to get him to turn a wrench or learn something mechanical. This was my first success.


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## Janderso (Sep 7, 2018)

I have a similar story/history with my boys. As with most kids, mine are no exception, they are very different.
My oldest, the electrician, loves tools and is not afraid to dig in and try to fix it. He watched his dad fix just about anything I got my hands on.
My youngest, the teacher, recently needed brakes on his 08 Ford edge. I got the parts (I work at a Ford Dealer) and we met at my house on Saturday morning. I told him, I will help but you are doing the work.
He loved it! For the first time after all these years of trying to get him to get involved and help. Maybe it was my approach? maybe he felt intimidated.
I told him, I am not going to be around forever. He is very frugal, maybe it finally sunk in.
I am pleased he caught the bug of self satisfaction when doing something that stretches your abilities.


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## KBeitz (Sep 7, 2018)

Crystal set....


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