# Mills & Lathes that look exactly like a PM



## erikmannie (Feb 8, 2020)

Even though I am entirely happy with my PM-25MV and PM-1030V, I was just looking at craigslist for fun, and I came across machines that look exactly identical to my two PM machine tools! Upon further Googling, I see that they are available new, as well.

I had heard that there are factories in Asia that sell similar castings, but I was completely astounded to see that these machines look to be identical twins.

I don’t want PM to lose any business, so I won’t name the brand, but I am curious: does anybody know the story behind this? The only difference seems to be the badging.

I have not done business with any of these other companies, but I am quite sure that their customer service would not be as good as that of PM.


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## 7milesup (Feb 8, 2020)

Many of these machines "look  identical", however, sometimes there is more to it than just looks.  For example, I know that PM machines use true inch carriage screws on their lathes which makes threading in imperial easier than a look alike lathe that has a metric lead screw.  Matt is also fastidious about quality control, so while the other machines may look identical, there is a possibility  that they are Matt's "rejected castings".  Not saying for sure that they are, but...  Busy Bee tools have machines that look similar.  So does Grizzly and Bolton tools.


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## erikmannie (Feb 8, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Many of these machines "look  identical", however, sometimes there is more to it than just looks.  For example, I know that PM machines use true inch carriage screws on their lathes which makes threading in imperial easier than a look alike lathe that has a metric lead screw.  Matt is also fastidious about quality control, so while the other machines may look identical, there is a possibility  that they are Matt's "rejected castings".  Not saying for sure that they are, but...  Busy Bee tools have machines that look similar.  So does Grizzly and Bolton tools.



I am a huge fan of Matt and all things PM. Your answer makes sense. I could not have had a more satisfying customer experience with both machine purchases.

It must have something to do with the manufacturing environment in Asia where there are mass produced parts with which retailers configure their own machines.

The ones that I saw (I still don’t want to name the brand out of consideration for PM) had inch pitch lead screws and they were blue and white!

I’m sure that PM has also attended to other details such as quality bearings, tighter tolerances, etc.

When I bought my machines, I spent as much as I could afford. Like I have posted on here before, I plan to buy much larger machines one day and they will definitely be PM.


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## michiganman18 (Feb 8, 2020)

Precision Matthews just buys the lathes from a generic manufacturer. They may specify certain tolerances or specs under contract but there are many other companies selling their main parts. Often times, but not always Brand A (Premium) will be items within a given tolerance say of .0005, Brand B (Industrial) , May be withing a tolerance of .001 and brand C (Value) will be items within .005 spec and greater. Not to mention any additional criteria or specs the bulk buyer may require. There are thousands of machines out there that are just like Precision Matthews, inch screws included but without certain specs and with less support. In fact, I think (without fact checking, Weiss, is a fairly well known lathe that comes from the same place.


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## erikmannie (Feb 8, 2020)

michiganman18 said:


> Precision Matthews just buys the lathes from a generic manufacturer. They may specify certain tolerances or specs under contract but there are many other companies selling their main parts. Often times, but not always Brand A (Premium) will be items within a given tolerance say of .0005, Brand B (Industrial) , May be withing a tolerance of .001 and brand C (Value) will be items within .005 spec and greater. Not to mention any additional criteria or specs the bulk buyer may require. There are thousands of machines out there that are just like Precision Matthews, inch screws included but without certain specs and with less support.



Nailed it!

A corollary benefit of this is a large supply of spare parts out there for us if need be. Whenever I buy a car, computer, welder, etc., I make an effort to buy a common item so that there are an abundance of replacement parts out there, as well as plenty of information online pertaining to troubleshooting and repair.


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## Downunder Bob (Feb 9, 2020)

AS PM does not have any activity in Australia, I've never actually come face to face with one of their machines

However i'm fairly certain my Liang Dei lathe is from the same factory in Taiwan. I've studied the photos very carefully and read through the specs and cannot find any difference. I know that's not proof, but it's as close as I can get, and does it really matter.

It appears that the majority of PM customers are happy, and I am also, I bought my machine from Modern engineering in Melbourne their sales and after sales service were also excellent. I did ask, but they were not able to confirm or deny any connection.  so there it rests.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 9, 2020)

The majority of the small import machines are made by Sieg to the resellers specs. They look the same but may use different motors, bearings, spindle nose, threading (metric or standard) etc at the resellers request.

Grizzly sells a 10x22 lathe which is made by Sieg (the C6). PM and DroPros (assuming this is the other one you are seeing on CL) sell a 10x22/30 lathe made by Weiss which is a more recent company (2002 vs 1988 for Sieg). Dropros is a US distributor for Weiss, while PM sells under their own brand name. I believe Dropros has a show room in Vacaville or Fairfield if you want an up close look at one to see what if any difference there is from your PM.

This really isn't anything new or limited to import machines, Logan used to build lathes for Montgomery Wards branded as Powr-Kraft. Atlas, and Sherline made lathes for Sears branded under the Craftsman brand.


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## 7milesup (Feb 10, 2020)

Weiss... that is the one I was trying to think of.

For machines like these, whether they are mills or lathes or any of the items that PM sells, I valued the service that Matt and his staff provides.  My next machine(s) are most likely going to come from Matt.


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 10, 2020)

Some of them look similar, but most aren't actually the same. 

 Example, compare our PM-25 with the Weiss 25 mill thats similar, but its not the same at all. Look hard at the castings and the way the column mounts to the base. Look at the base casting, thats where you can see the most difference in the picture. A small mill is a small mill but there are a lot of differences in many of these machines. No one else has the PM-25 or PM-30 thats the same as ours. We had them built specifically for us from the castings up, that is our machine and no one elses, although others do use a similar color and its hard to see the differences unless you look close. 

  So while there is a lot of slapping a name on a machine and selling it around, and yes a few of our models are similar from the same factory that may be sold in Australia or elsewhere, there is lot more to it than that with MOST of what we carry.   Sieg makes one machine for us, and thats it, the 1228 that we carry. That one has many small things done to it, but its a base machine of a Sieg. No others from there.

Also as far as our PM-833T Series, and new PM-728VT, 1440GT, you will not find anything like these in North America. We own these models 100%. We do have some dealings around the world though for these models, we will see if they catch on. 

 No problem with what anyone said here, just want to get the facts straight, thats all.

We also just put $200,000.00 + in to parts storage, software, shelving, etc. - there is a lot going on here. That is all coming over the next year so you can order parts online, might have a few growing pains here and there but its coming together. 

 We get 10 to 20 emails per day like the one below, I genuinely feel bad for the people. But thats what happens. 

 Not that we are perfect, but I am sure trying to be and making a real effort. 





_--- Please Choose an Option which best describes your needs (Please choose carefully to receive a proper reply): ---

Technical Questions - (Pre sales questions, you do not have our product yet)

--- Subject: ---

need speed control for 750 watt motor

--- Message (Please give as much detail as possible) ---

I have a XXXXXXXXXX 8x31 lathe with 750 watt motor and the seller of that machine has gone silent since my speed control died after only 2 months use.  Your machines look like they're coming out of the same factory OR XXXXXXXXX is copying your machines(?).  I am dead in the water and need a new speed control.  Do you sell speed control units for your lathes?_


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## 7milesup (Feb 10, 2020)

That is awesome Matt.  Thank you for responding.  
Like I mentioned before, I really appreciate the effort you put into your business and making your customers happy.  I own a 1022 I bought from you a few years ago (too small but not enough funds yet to upgrade) and also an 833T.  Very nice machine BTW.


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## michiganman18 (Feb 10, 2020)

Ive actually been wanting to comment about this for a few days and add this to my prior post. 

While with my particular PM lathe, I haven't been impressed with the quality over other offerings, (even going as far as to looking to order directly in tawain) I looked at QMT/PM as a broker and went with them to ensure parts availability and that my lathe would get to me in one peice. 

That alone is worth the  price or "service charge" for their products and a quite valid argument for one brand despite other even identical machines. 

 Ive ran into a couple of issues where a good machine is rendered useless by obsolete parts. Even with an industrial background, and a full machine shop at my leisure not having parts on hand is a huge hassle and making something thay will work gets old.


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## StevSmar (Feb 11, 2020)

I looked at some Busy-Bee lathes and am glad I got to see them in person. I would have been richer but disappointed with one of these.


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

I have only bought 2 machines from PM (so far!) and my friend bought yet another, but from what I saw with these 3 transactions, PM is doing it right.

When I buy a machine, I want to get going and stay going. PM was VERY good about getting me going, and from what I gather they will be able to help me resolve any issues if something stops working.

I can handle having a machine down, waiting on parts, but having an orphaned machine would probably be too much for me!


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

That would be fantastic if we could count on long term availability of spare parts for the machines.

So hopefully if a motor, circuit board or the like fails years down the road, we could contact PM and buy a replacement part. That is certainly more economical than buying a new machine!


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## sc0ch (Feb 15, 2020)

Here's a great comparison video of the the PM-25mv and it's Grizzly equivilent:






As can be seen, they are quite different.  Especially:

1) Precision Mathews includes ways oilers.
2) Precision Mathews has better column support.
3) Precision Mathews features grounded, not machined, surfaces.

Across offerings I suspect Precision Mathews features similar improvements relative to competitors.


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## wrmiller (Feb 15, 2020)

When people start talking about how object 'A' is better than object 'B' because it's cheaper, they appear to want justification of their opinion and if countered (even with actual facts), they will argue. Usually from a completely ignorant position other than having 'seen some pics' and 'read the spec sheet'.

So, rather than getting entangled in their opinions, I just tell them to go ahead and buy whatever it is they want and enjoy it. 

I had one of Matt's early PM25s (Weiss) that was identical to the 704, except for the paint. It was OK, but wasn't even close to what the new PM-25MV is. If the new 25MV were available back then, I'd probably still have it.


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