# PM-727M or PM-932M - help me decide



## Astronutski (Feb 28, 2018)

Hi guys, complete newb to machining here but have done a lot of reading and youtube watching.   This will be my first mill, I've had enough with woodworking, time to grow up and get some serious precision, life is too short.
Anyway, like most, I am very limited in space and $, and I have narrowed my choice down to the PM-727M & PM-932M.  I'm just stuck at the "well for only $200 more..." argument and I do like to only buy tools once instead of upgrading later on.  I'm hoping some of you may have experience with both models and can comment to which was the better decision for whatever reason.  Down the road I'd LOVE to convert this to CNC.
I know, ultimately, I will have to make this decision, but I'd just like to gather some info from y'all.
I guess the only pro for the 727 is the slightly cheaper price tag which is very attractive.  I see right now the 932 is out of stock, at least the one I was most interested in, the 932M, no problem, I'm still gathering data.
To answer the "what envelope size do you need?" question, right now I'd have to say, not a clue.  I have nothing specific I'm looking to build, but I think I'd like the bigger size "just in case" you know?

My head is all over the place on this, and I'm just looking for some clarity.  I know the tooling can be way more than the machine, so that $200 would help a lot towards tooling, but again, I'm back to five years down the road and the inevitable "if I had only spent the extra $200 on the 932 back then.... " dilemma.

Any and all input greatly appreciated.  (Also, any advice on how to sell this whole thing to the wife would be awesome ;-)
Thanks,
Bill


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## tweinke (Feb 28, 2018)

My two cents worth on this is biggest that will fit in your shop and budget. I own a 727m and really like it. It has done the jobs I've asked of it without any issues even one that might have been better on a 932 due to size. If in my case I could have fit the 932 in my budget I would have gone that way because of the extra mass/size. Matt and company are good to work with so which ever machine you would get will have good support. I do not think tooling up costs will be any different between the two machines so figure that in and also remember you do not need every piece of tooling at once. Get a machine, collets, basic end mills etc and build from there. Do not forget measuring tools also. Oh and by the way we are here to help you on your journey and to help you blow your budget to national debt levels!  As for the wife...... sneak it in the shop and when she notices it tell her you've had it awhile..........   Or as a second thought pitch it to her by saying you could also start bowling or another pastime that would take you away from home in the evenings........


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## ThunderDog (Feb 28, 2018)

Hi, and welcome.

First, I own neither of these two.  However, I'm saving those pennies for the 932M.  I own an Atlas horizontal mill and a Jefferson horizontal(converted to vertical mill).  I once thought, "This is going to be all I need".  Talk about being WRONG!!  I'm limited in space too, but the ability to take a bigger cut with a more rigid machine can't be beat.  I say save for the 932M.  Download the manual and look at the required space for the machine.  From memory I believe you need 4'-5' for the table travel.
Best of luck.


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## sfsteel (Feb 28, 2018)

FWIW, the basic model of the 932 is a pretty long wait time, when I inquired a few weeks ago. I think like 6 months. Not to say it’s not worth waiting for...


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## Astronutski (Feb 28, 2018)

tweinke said:


> My two cents worth on this is biggest that will fit in your shop and budget. ... snip... As for the wife...... sneak it in the shop and when she notices it tell her you've had it awhile..........   Or as a second thought pitch it to her by saying you could also start bowling or another pastime that would take you away from home in the evenings........



I like your thinking a lot and I hadn't thought about it that way, that really drives it home "get the biggest that will fit in your shop" but I will change the end to "screw the budget" LOL.
Very valid points on better with a heavier machine.
I have heard nothing but awesomeness regarding Matt so much so it feels like I know him already, doesn't hurt I'm only two hours up the road from him.
Yes, I keep telling myself I won't need all the tooling up front but then when I start to add up the mandatories.... from dial test indicators, vise, parallels, end mills, chuck, collets, centerdrills,  I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I'm thinking, well, I won't be making one chip without any of these items.  I'm sure at some point you're pretty set and only need a tool here and there as the job requires, but wow this first starter kit is painful.  I have looked around at other sites that do offer strater kits, but I find myself thinking, why buy twice when I should by quality right up front.  Oh, who am I fooling, I'm not telling anyone here anything new they've never heard of or experienced before!

LOL, just how does one "sneak in" a 850 lb. mill with separate 300 lb base into their one car garage?  I'm all ears buddy!  But yes, gave up bowling 20 years ago and now pretty much hate leaving the house anyway, so I do have an angle there at least LOL.  Thanks for your help!


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## Astronutski (Feb 28, 2018)

ThunderDog said:


> Hi, and welcome.
> 
> First, I own neither of these two.  However, I'm saving those pennies for the 932M.  I own an Atlas horizontal mill and a Jefferson horizontal(converted to vertical mill).  I once thought, "This is going to be all I need".  Talk about being WRONG!!  I'm limited in space too, but the ability to take a bigger cut with a more rigid machine can't be beat.  I say save for the 932M.  Download the manual and look at the required space for the machine.  From memory I believe you need 4'-5' for the table travel.
> Best of luck.



Thank you Thunder!  Ya I have the manual, for both, can't remember either off the top, but this right here is the point of no return.... I'm going from a functional garage I've used for it's intended purpose, for 20 years, to parking out all winter but having a fun shop finally.  Excited but terrified (I hate snow).  I'm with you here, I believe I'm going to save for the 932 as well.  I'm sure I won't regret this purchase, besides, ya can't take it with you right?  The kids can fend for themselves LOL.


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## Astronutski (Feb 28, 2018)

sfsteel said:


> FWIW, the basic model of the 932 is a pretty long wait time, when I inquired a few weeks ago. I think like 6 months. Not to say it’s not worth waiting for...


Crap, thanks for the heads up sfsteel.  Well, this will give me time to save for the motorized X axis version, and maybe even the full DRO version by then.  I don't doubt for a minute that this will be worth the wait.  Thanks again!


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## jwmelvin (Feb 28, 2018)

I’m curious why the 932 instead of the 30V? I’m also trying to pick my first mill and have been leaning toward the 30V.


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## umahunter (Feb 28, 2018)

I would go as big as you can afford better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it while I've only had my 932m a short while I absolutely love  it


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## Astronutski (Mar 1, 2018)

jwmelvin said:


> I’m curious why the 932 instead of the 30V? I’m also trying to pick my first mill and have been leaning toward the 30V.


Good question!  Somehow I missed it, thanks!  I see that the 30V and 932M are the same price, if that's the case and all things considered relatively even, from everything I've heard I'm going to lean toward bigger/heavier.  But I will now seriously vet this machine out too, thanks for bringing it to my attention!


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## Astronutski (Mar 1, 2018)

umahunter said:


> I would go as big as you can afford better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it while I've only had my 932m a short while I absolutely love  it


Good to hear, thanks!  My worst fear is just like a treadmill or home gym, it turns into a wickedly expensive table/coat rack LOL.  But I seriously can't imagine that happening.


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## BFHammer (Mar 1, 2018)

Astro,

I can't speak with experience on the 727 but I went through a similar analysis last year before purchasing the 932M.  My decision came down to the "relative" small difference in price in exchange for the added size and mass.  I say relative in the sense that I too looked at this as a one-time purchase.  So far I have been extremely pleased with the 932M and love how solid it is.  I don't think PM commonly stocks the base model of the 932M and I ended up purchasing the 932M-PDF.  The PDF is nice (although not a necessity for me) but as I do more boring I think I will appreciate having it.  The item I would say I couldn't live without is the powered Z axis.  

Like you I had no specific task in mind but have found that it gets regular use and I've even run into a couple of projects where I've stretched the Y capacity of this machine.  The most convenient way to mount the X axis DRO is on the back of the table which consumes precious Y travel.   

Other cost (saving) items to consider - a DRO is easy to install and there are plenty of deals around.  The cast iron stand is nice, but if I were to do it over again I would skip the stand and (assuming your a welder) weld me up a nice heavy stand.  I'm a pretty tall guy (6'2") and I had to weld up a base to get things at the correct height anyway.

I purchased a PM1236 (another great machine) at the same time and justified (in my mind) the increased price of the 932M-PDF as being offset by a discount from PM for a multiple machine purchase and I saved a couple hundred bucks in shipping by having them shipped together.  I'll go ahead and admit that the combined shipping was a questionable strategy since I had to wait about four months for them to ship as the mill was also out of stock when I ordered.  
Do you realize how much money you can spend on tooling while you impatiently wait for machines to arrive! 

Good luck and I'll be happy to answer any questions related to the 932M


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## navav2002 (Mar 1, 2018)

I've had a PM932M for a couple of years and love it. Like many I started looking at the PM-25, then found out about the 727 and finally settled on the 932 (glad I did!!). It's very accurate and a fairly capable mill. I agree with the "heavier class" concept. I'm pretty easy with mine ie: I don't do big heavy hogging cuts or anything. I think my mill would take a lot more than I give it but I'm just more comfortable going easy (for both me and the machine). I'm in no hurry...

Good luck with your decision!! Precision Matthews is a great company to deal with..

P.S. I highly recommend the x-axis power feed!! Can't imagine being without it!! I've also added a y-axis power feed to mine which is a bit more of a project but is well worth it in my opinion...


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## Astronutski (Mar 1, 2018)

BFHammer said:


> Astro,
> I don't think PM commonly stocks the base model of the 932M and I ended up purchasing the 932M-PDF.  The PDF is nice (although not a necessity for me) but as I do more boring I think I will appreciate having it.  The item I would say I couldn't live without is the powered Z axis.


That's a sin..... when I'm closer to ordering I'll definitely give Matt a call, I don't want to have to spend another $400 or $700 for something I don't want or need.  That's a lot of stock, or tooling.



BFHammer said:


> Other cost (saving) items to consider - a DRO is easy to install and there are plenty of deals around.  The cast iron stand is nice, but if I were to do it over again I would skip the stand and (assuming your a welder) weld me up a nice heavy stand.  I'm a pretty tall guy (6'2") and I had to weld up a base to get things at the correct height anyway.


I sure wish I could get the lathe at the same time!  Ashamedly I am not a welder although ironically that was what I wanted to get into until I started down this machining/milling path!  I did want to ask, the motors that power the table, can those be used in the CNC conversion too?  I'm kinda thinking not because I think the table feeds are not steppers, please correct me if I'm wrong.  I'd hate to upgrade to power feed and then start all over to CNC, seems a waste.



BFHammer said:


> Do you realize how much money you can spend on tooling while you impatiently wait for machines to arrive!


Seriously!  I feel like ordering tooling right now, but I should wait till the mill is at least ordered!



BFHammer said:


> Good luck and I'll be happy to answer any questions related to the 932M


Thank you, there will be plenty ;-)


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## Astronutski (Mar 1, 2018)

navav2002 said:


> I've had a PM932M for a couple of years and love it. Like many I started looking at the PM-25, then found out about the 727 and finally settled on the 932 (glad I did!!). It's very accurate and a fairly capable mill. I agree with the "heavier class" concept. I'm pretty easy with mine ie: I don't do big heavy hogging cuts or anything. I think my mill would take a lot more than I give it but I'm just more comfortable going easy (for both me and the machine). I'm in no hurry...


Thank you for the valuable info, you sound exactly like me, I will be babying mine for a long time too, no hurry.


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## jwmelvin (Mar 1, 2018)

Astronutski said:


> I'd hate to upgrade to power feed and then start all over to CNC, seems a waste.


I feel the same way. That's why I'm starting to lean to the 932M-Basic. I figure I can slowly add features that I want and do so in a way that may permit CNC conversion (like driving the lead screws with stepper motors before changing to ballscrews; and using position scales that will work with whatever system I choose. The variable-speed drive of the 30MV seems nice but also readily achievable with a 3-phase motor and VFD. I guess there may be a significance of gear drive vs belt drive for the spindle. But I'm still trying to get a sense for what would drive me to choose the 30MV versus the 932M.


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## navav2002 (Mar 1, 2018)

Here is a little video using my shars 2.5" facemill. I'm putting a little bevel on a brake caliper bracket I'm making for some Brembo calipers. I'm making it out of 7075t6...

Don't laugh too much...lol


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## Astronutski (Mar 1, 2018)

navav2002 said:


> Here is a little video using my shars 2.5" facemill. I'm putting a little bevel on a brake caliper bracket I'm making for some Brembo calipers. I'm making it out of 7075t6...
> 
> Don't laugh too much...lol


Love it, thanks!  Without getting too far off topic what are the Brembo's going on?


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## navav2002 (Mar 1, 2018)

Astronutski said:


> Love it, thanks!  Without getting too far off topic what are the Brembo's going on?


A little 2004 VW Jetta GLI, It's my poor man's race car..lol. I hope to try some autocross with it someday but so far just tinkering..


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## JR49 (Mar 1, 2018)

One thing to keep in mind that can save you a lot.  Check out all the tooling Matt has on the PM site.  Anything you think you will need, if you order it with the mill there will be no extra shipping charge.  He puts it all in with the mill.  Heck just the shipping charge for a milling vise alone is around 30 to 40 bucks.  Oh, and I also have the 932 PDF, and love it, but, to further confuse you, Pragmatic Lee (you tube)  does some amazing work with his 727.  I'm sure you will be happy with any machine you buy from Matt!!   Happy Machining,   JR49


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## BFHammer (Mar 1, 2018)

Astronutski said:


> I did want to ask, the motors that power the table, can those be used in the CNC conversion too?  I'm kinda thinking not because I think the table feeds are not steppers, please correct me if I'm wrong.  I'd hate to upgrade to power feed and then start all over to CNC, seems a waste.



I don't know a lot about CNC but I think you are correct the table feed motors are not steppers and I would imagine they wouldn't meet the requirements for CNC.  One other consideration if you think CNC is in your remotely near future is the cost of a VFD conversion.  It certainly can be done and many have been but you might search some threads I believe the consensus is that you will spend more on a VFD conversion than you would to purchase a variable speed machine up front.  There are other factors to consider but worth doing a little digging before you part with any cash.




navav2002 said:


> Here is a little video using my shars 2.5" facemill. I'm putting a little bevel on a brake caliper bracket I'm making for some Brembo calipers. I'm making it out of 7075t6...



Nava - Nice video, thanks for sharing - tell me more about that vise? that you're using to hold your part.  It looks interesting.


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## Astronutski (Mar 1, 2018)

JR49 said:


> One thing to keep in mind that can save you a lot.  Check out all the tooling Matt has on the PM site.  Anything you think you will need, if you order it with the mill there will be no extra shipping charge.  He puts it all in with the mill.  Heck just the shipping charge for a milling vise alone is around 30 to 40 bucks.  Oh, and I also have the 932 PDF, and love it, but, to further confuse you, Pragmatic Lee (you tube)  does some amazing work with his 727.  I'm sure you will be happy with any machine you buy from Matt!!   Happy Machining,   JR49


LOL, not confuseled, thanks for the info, and the youtube channel I'll check him out.  I have been watching a lot of CNC4XR7's channel and he has a lot of excellent info on the 727 as well.


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## Astronutski (Mar 1, 2018)

BFHammer said:


> I don't know a lot about CNC but I think you are correct the table feed motors are not steppers and I would imagine they wouldn't meet the requirements for CNC.  One other consideration if you think CNC is in your remotely near future is the cost of a VFD conversion.  It certainly can be done and many have been but you might search some threads I believe the consensus is that you will spend more on a VFD conversion than you would to purchase a variable speed machine up front.  There are other factors to consider but worth doing a little digging before you part with any cash.


Ugh, haven't learnt me that much yet, but thanks, if it needs variable drive then that 30MV is starting to sound a lot better.  Thanks, I'll do a lot more research.


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## jwmelvin (Mar 1, 2018)

Astronutski said:


> Ugh, haven't learnt me that much yet, but thanks, if it needs variable drive then that 30MV is starting to sound a lot better.  Thanks, I'll do a lot more research.


From what I understand, CNC often uses pretty high spindle speeds because it uses small cutters to create a desired outline (the cutter defines the minimum internal radius of a part). The problem is that even the 30MV doesn't run all that high of a spindle speed, so it will be a little limited for aluminum with small cutters.  It is better, however, than the 1970 rpm of the 932M.

I don't see why variable speed is strictly required for a CNC operation though. Perhaps someone can elaborate?


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## navav2002 (Mar 2, 2018)

BFHammer said:


> Nava - Nice video, thanks for sharing - tell me more about that vise? that you're using to hold yor part.  It looks interesting.


That's a adjustable angle plate that I got off ebay. It's just a cheep one but it actually seems like it will be OK for what I'm doing. I think I had it set @ 8 degrees in that video. They come in a few different sizes, I think mine is a 9x12 which is a nice size for the 932m...
Here's a couple of Links:
Travers
Angle Plate


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## Astronutski (Mar 2, 2018)

jwmelvin said:


> From what I understand, CNC often uses pretty high spindle speeds because it uses small cutters to create a desired outline (the cutter defines the minimum internal radius of a part). The problem is that even the 30MV doesn't run all that high of a spindle speed, so it will be a little limited for aluminum with small cutters.  It is better, however, than the 1970 rpm of the 932M.
> 
> I don't see why variable speed is strictly required for a CNC operation though. Perhaps someone can elaborate?


Alright, with the very strong desire of future CNC, I've officially thrown the 30 in the ring as a contender.  And actually, the more I think about it, the more I think I will start the conversion almost immediately.

I too would love to hear the reasons for high spindle speeds for CNC, what's the "acceptable" or minimum RPM's we're looking for for Aluminum?

And is variable mandatory?  The few videos I've seen I'm pretty sure the machines are not variable...... unless they did add the VFDs.  Youtuber CNC4XR7 in particular.


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## jwmelvin (Mar 2, 2018)

I talked to Matt at PM today regarding the 932 and 30V. In short, I’m not sure he helped me decide very much. He is very nice but I got the sense he wasn’t interested in suggesting which machine would work better for me. Part of the problem is not knowing what I need. His response is that my choice depends on which one I think I want. (?). On reflection, it is probably sound business practice to have your customers choose what they order, so they know who to blame if they have regrets later. 

A few things seemed useful. His take is that motors and drives are not nearly as inexpensive as cast iron, so you give up a bunch of heft and stiffness of the 932 to get the variable-speed drive in the 30V. The higher spindle speed in the 30V is useful for aluminum and smaller cutters. 

With either machine, running a higher spindle speed would require new bearings and a new motor. With the 932 you would have to convert from the gearbox to a belt drive. I didn’t clarify if the drive of the 30V would work for higher speeds with a different motor. 

Other than the spindle, both are about equivalent for CNC conversion. 

It would be helpful to better understand the required spindle speeds for aluminum CNC. From talking to Matt it sounded like the higher spindle speeds allow feed rates that just aren’t practical when manual milling so it’s more of a speed thing than a necessity. 

Also, my idea of picking it up to save on shipping turns out to be pointless because then I would have to pay PA sales tax, which is high.


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## sfsteel (Mar 4, 2018)

Looks like they just upped the price of the 30mv by $100!


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## jwmelvin (Mar 4, 2018)

That stinks. Would have been nice of him to mention it when we talked Friday.


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## Astronutski (Mar 4, 2018)

saw that, sucks.


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## mksj (Mar 4, 2018)

jwmelvin said:


> Also, my idea of picking it up to save on shipping turns out to be pointless because then I would have to pay PA sales tax, which is high.


My understanding is if you pay for it first with a delivery address out of state and you pick it up that you do not pay sales tax. Another out od state individual who just purchased a lathe from another vendor just did this. The delivery address must be out of state, and already paid for. This may vary by vendor. What I had heard was the price changes were based on new inventory coming in, also experienced this with a few other machine vendors who all have had 5-10% price increases this year. There was also previous posting of the increases from QMT.

You will be limited in the top end speed by the spindle bearings used, so they would needed to be changed for the higher speeds, I figure anything above 4-5K RPM. CNC uses smaller cutters to achieve the profiling needed, the spindle speed would dictate the transit times for material removal. A lighter weight CNC machine will have less moving mass and use smaller stepping motors, but you give up some rigidity. Lots to think about, really depends on the type and size of the work you plan on doing.  If CNC is far down the road then I would lean to the bigger is better, if sooner than the PM-30V may be a better candidate with very good working parameters (X, Y, Z) and not having to deal with the belt drive conversion.


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## jwmelvin (Mar 6, 2018)

Well, I just put a deposit on the 30MV, due to arrive in about 8 weeks. The price increase was annoying but I think I will like the machine.


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## Astronutski (Mar 6, 2018)

jwmelvin said:


> Well, I just put a deposit on the 30MV, due to arrive in about 8 weeks. The price increase was annoying but I think I will like the machine.


Freakin AWESOME I'm so pumped for ya!  Ya, sucks that $100, but hey, I'm positive you'll love the machine.  I think I will have to order before that 8 weeks is up, I've just got a hunch LOL.  Hey I know, I'll pick her up for ya and "test her out" <wink><wink>
Did you get any accy's  and/or the stand?


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## jwmelvin (Mar 6, 2018)

Astronutski said:


> Did you get any accy's  and/or the stand?


I didn't get a stand (will make my own) but I did get a chuck and vise. Matt didn't seem to think it was all that important to get the ultra precision versions, so I went with the 1/8-5/8 high-precision chuck and a 5" high-precision vise. I also got some R8 collets, a clamping kit, and end mills. Everything I should need to get started. I'm excited. I can easily fill the 8 weeks with my other recent additions (10x22 lathe, plasma cutter, 4x6 bandsaw, TIG welder).


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## Astronutski (Mar 6, 2018)

jwmelvin said:


> I didn't get a stand (will make my own) but I did get a chuck and vise. Matt didn't seem to think it was all that important to get the ultra precision versions, so I went with the 1/8-5/8 high-precision chuck and a 5" high-precision vise. I also got some R8 collets, a clamping kit, and end mills. Everything I should need to get started. I'm excited. I can easily fill the 8 weeks with my other recent additions (10x22 lathe, plasma cutter, 4x6 bandsaw, TIG welder).



Hmmmm, 5" huh?  All this time I was assuming the 4" was the size for these bench mills, is 5" still not too big?  I'm not doubting your decision, I'm just not as far along as you are in this process.

Seriously???  Any ONE of those 8 week time fillers would be perfect for me!  That lathe and TIG have me drooling!


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## jwmelvin (Mar 6, 2018)

Astronutski said:


> Hmmmm, 5" huh? All this time I was assuming the 4" was the size for these bench mills, is 5" still not too big? I'm not doubting your decision, I'm just not as far along as you are in this process.
> 
> Seriously??? Any ONE of those 8 week time fillers would be perfect for me! That lathe and TIG have me drooling!



If 5” is too big, I’d much rather know now before it’s too late! Please, people, tell me. Maybe I should look at dimensions and how it fits on the table. 

Yes, my shop has taken some big steps forward recently. It will be a while before I fully develop my competence at it all. Hopefully having the ability to do a wide range of things will encourage me to start certain projects.


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## BFHammer (Mar 6, 2018)

I have the PM932 which has a 9” deep table almost identical to the 8.25” table on your MV30. I have a 5 inch vise and wouldn’t recommend going smaller. I know some guys here have a 6” inch vise on similar size machines. You’ll have some overhang in either case but I haven’t found that to be an issue at all.


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## jwmelvin (Mar 6, 2018)

@BFHammer, thank you. I feel better now.


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## Astronutski (Mar 7, 2018)

BFHammer said:


> I have the PM932 which has a 9” deep table almost identical to the 8.25” table on your MV30. I have a 5 inch vise and wouldn’t recommend going smaller. I know some guys here have a 6” inch vise on similar size machines. You’ll have some overhang in either case but I haven’t found that to be an issue at all.



Good to know, thanks for the education


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## navav2002 (Mar 7, 2018)

I also have a PM-932M and a 6" vise with no problems...


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## Bob Korves (Mar 7, 2018)

I am using a 6" Bridgeport vise on my Millrite with a 8x32 table.  Works fine, though I am now mounting it in the front t-slot to preserve all the Y travel (the vise does not hang over the back of the table when mounted in the front slot.)  Note that the Millrite is a turret mill with an adjustable ram, and that allows things you cannot do on a typical bench mill.


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