# New Charter Oak 12Z on the way



## wrmiller (Sep 19, 2014)

Paul (Charter Oak Ops Mgr) told me this morning that the top was going on the crate as we spoke, and it should go out today. :happyhappy:

And I even found a pristine 5" Kurt for it. Now all I have to hope for is the shipping company doesn't damage it...

Bill


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## coolidge (Sep 19, 2014)

Why did you choose the Charter Oak over other mills in this price range? Also what options if any did you select? I spoke briefly with Charter Oak this week on price and availability. I still need to speak with someone who knows the machines well to confirm it will not have certain issues, key among them is binding on X, Y, or Z with loose spots and tight spots and the whole lap the ways fiasco. Love the work cube on the Charter Oak but crap ways will be a deal killer.


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## wrmiller (Sep 19, 2014)

Larger table, longer travel in all axis', 3 HP VFD upgrade, custom height stand and better upgrades available.

I'm going to burst your bubble here, in that if you think talking "with someone who knows the machines well" is going to guarantee you get a good mill, you might want to consider buying a lottery ticket. You'll get better odds. The problem you speak of (ways) is exactly the problem I had with my PM machine. I wasn't the only one, and I think it was pretty rare, but you don't care how rare it is when it happens to you. Matt replaced the column (thanks Matt), and I re-worked the other axis'. You think you're going to get consistent quality out of China on any of these machines? Your dreaming. No offense intended.

But the main reason behind why I went with CO is because they have the machines inspected by a Brit company during the build process. Then the machine is re-inspected (and I don't me a quick visual) here for proper functionality, the head is drained and the spindle bearings are replaced with better quality NSKs, the head flushed, re-filled and the bearings run in prior to crating back up and shipped to the customer. There are no absolutes, but I feel this process is better than what I'm seeing out of some other companies.

And after all that, I will still go over the machine myself because there are no guarantees here. Guarantees like my friend at work who bought a BP thought he was getting because it is "US made" and found significant wear in both x and y such that the damn table sags when traversing in either axis near center. And the head needs rebuilt. It's a POS.

Your mileage may vary,
Bill
P.S. Good or bad, I will report my impressions with the machine as I get her up and running.




coolidge said:


> Why did you choose the Charter Oak over other mills in this price range? Also what options if any did you select? I spoke briefly with Charter Oak this week on price and availability. I still need to speak with someone who knows the machines well to confirm it will not have certain issues, key among them is binding on X, Y, or Z with loose spots and tight spots and the whole lap the ways fiasco. Love the work cube on the Charter Oak but crap ways will be a deal killer.


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## dave2176 (Sep 20, 2014)

Congratulations Bill, that looks to be a great machine.  I look forward to seeing your report. 

Dave


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## wrmiller (Sep 20, 2014)

dave2176 said:


> Congratulations Bill, that looks to be a great machine.  I look forward to seeing your report.
> 
> Dave



I am hoping so (that it's a great machine), but being somewhat a realist, I am sure there will be warts. There always are on these class of machines. I'm just hoping that the process that Paul described to me mitigates the bigger ones.

But then again I'm one of those oddballs that actually enjoys tweaking, tuning, and making mods for my machines. I am NOT expecting the quality of a Hardinge HLV or that of a new BP in a $2400 mill.  

Bill


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## coolidge (Sep 20, 2014)

Well its good they are inspecting them, they may as well inspect all the ways for binding before shipping one to me because if it has that problem its getting shipped right back to them for a refund. Years ago I purchased one of the early IH CNC machines so I am intimately familiar with the Rong Fu and its issues, binding ways in particular. I realize the CO is a variant manufactured to their specs. I ended up scrapping the IH it was that bad. I won't be converting this one to CNC I just want a manual mill of reasonable quality in this price range. A Haas Super Minimill 2 is on the horizon for CNC duty.

I'm also considering the 3HP VFD upgrade as 1600 rpm is too slow. I'd like to gather more information on it for example is the motor CHINA or something better. They also have an option for a 2 speed belt drive upgrade for $785, the old Rong Fu gear box is LOUD as freaking hell at 2,000 rpm as I recall.


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## wrmiller (Sep 20, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Well its good they are inspecting them, they may as well inspect all the ways for binding before shipping one to me because if it has that problem its getting shipped right back to them for a refund. Years ago I purchased one of the early IH CNC machines so I am intimately familiar with the Rong Fu and its issues, binding ways in particular. I realize the CO is a variant manufactured to their specs. I ended up scrapping the IH it was that bad. I won't be converting this one to CNC I just want a manual mill of reasonable quality in this price range. A Haas Super Minimill 2 is on the horizon for CNC duty.
> 
> I'm also considering the 3HP VFD upgrade as 1600 rpm is too slow. I'd like to gather more information on it for example is the motor CHINA or something better. They also have an option for a 2 speed belt drive upgrade for $785, the old Rong Fu gear box is LOUD as freaking hell at 2,000 rpm as I recall.



I didn't mention previously, but my future upgrades are the one-shot oiling system, a power feed for the X axis, and the 2 speed belt drive. Don't know if CO has the gears ground, but they are hardened. 

I am hoping that because they use this machine as the basis for their CNC machine, that there won't be any problems with the ways. We will see. I also don't believe IH was doing all the quality inspections that CO is doing. Again, the proof will be in the machine I receive. Of note is the PM 932: It is the same basic machine as the RF and people here are not screaming that the machine is junk.

I too am just looking for a decent quality machine in this price range, but I was initially drawn to the CO by the Y axis travel. Tired of machines with a 9" wide table and 7 or 8" of travel in Y. Seems kinda stupid (to me).  

If all goes well, I will get a machine with the capacity of a small knee mill (table size, axis travel) but without all the bulk of a 1500-2500 lb. machine. Of course this also means this machine will not be a rigid as a full blow knee mill (I do not have that requirement in a hobby mill), but I can at least roll it up a ramp on a moving truck. Always tradeoffs... 

Bill
P.S. I'll let you know the make of the VFD and motor when I get the machine.


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## tmarks11 (Sep 20, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> ...I will get a machine with the capacity of a small knee mill (table size, axis travel) but without all the bulk of a 1500-2500 lb. machine. Of course this also means this machine will not be a rigid as a full blow knee mil



Not necessarily true.  A Knee mill packs all the weight in the base and the knee, and is fairly lightweight up top.  The design to swivel along three axis to maximize flexibility has a negative impact on rigidity.  An RF45 style probably has similar rigidity to a knee mill (not a tree, but at least a 9x49 Bridgeport style), and the IH model with the beefed up column and improved head collar should be fairly decent.

What you lose compared to the bridgeport is the flexibility that rotating, nodding, and sliding the head gives you. Since 99% of the machining most people do does not require nodding or sliding the head, you don't miss out on much.  That being said, if I went back to a manual machine, it would be a knee mill (probably the 935TV to save space).


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## wrmiller (Sep 21, 2014)

tmarks11 said:


> Not necessarily true.  A Knee mill packs all the weight in the base and the knee, and is fairly lightweight up top.  The design to swivel along three axis to maximize flexibility has a negative impact on rigidity.  An RF45 style probably has similar rigidity to a knee mill (not a tree, but at least a 9x49 Bridgeport style), and the IH model with the beefed up column and improved head collar should be fairly decent.
> 
> What you lose compared to the bridgeport is the flexibility that rotating, nodding, and sliding the head gives you. Since 99% of the machining most people do does not require nodding or sliding the head, you don't miss out on much.  That being said, if I went back to a manual machine, it would be a knee mill (probably the 935TV to save space).



What you said is interesting, and has been said to me by others. I have heard Ray C. talk about his 932 here on the site and it appears to be a very robust machine for what it is.

Making small stuff, pistolsmithing and such doesn't typically require very exotic setups. The only advantage I see in a BP style head for my particular usage would be the ease of tramming the head. But I am learning to 'never say never' and who knows exactly what I will want/have 5-6 years down the road. 

Bill


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## coolidge (Sep 21, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> I didn't mention previously, but my future upgrades are the one-shot oiling system, a power feed for the X axis, and the 2 speed belt drive. Don't know if CO has the gears ground, but they are hardened.
> 
> I am hoping that because they use this machine as the basis for their CNC machine, that there won't be any problems with the ways. We will see. I also don't believe IH was doing all the quality inspections that CO is doing. Again, the proof will be in the machine I receive. Of note is the PM 932: It is the same basic machine as the RF and people here are not screaming that the machine is junk.
> 
> ...



I actually prefer this style bed mill to a knee mill and the Y travel on most knee mills is around 9 inches vs 12 for this mill. I have looked at some used industrial bed mills which dwarf the CO but like you I'm not really looking for a 4000 pound beast. I can lift the CO with my tractor front end loader, its not so heavy that I can't put in on wheels so I can shove it out of the way when I need to. I have a Grizzly G4003G 12-36 lathe and it seems every time I turn around I need a mill for some operation.

Are you going to counter weight the head? I counter weighted my old Rong Fu and will do the same with the CO if I purchase one especially since the spindle sticks out 12 inches from the column, those gear heads plus the motor is a lot of weight pitching forward.

I thought the price of the CO was quite reasonable compared with Grizzly and others. Shipping to me on the west coast is brutal, the quote is about $560 ouch!


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## wrmiller (Sep 21, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I actually prefer this style bed mill to a knee mill and the Y travel on most knee mills is around 9 inches vs 12 for this mill. I have looked at some used industrial bed mills which dwarf the CO but like you I'm not really looking for a 4000 pound beast. I can lift the CO with my tractor front end loader, its not so heavy that I can't put in on wheels so I can shove it out of the way when I need to. I have a Grizzly G4003G 12-36 lathe and it seems every time I turn around I need a mill for some operation.
> 
> Oh yea, a 4000G? That's on my short list for my next lathe. The other is the Eisen 12x36. Taiwan made but a bit pricier. Money no object is the PM1340GT.
> 
> ...



Yea, shipping to me was $529. Eisen quoted me about $450 to ship a 12x36. Guess these guys don't get the volume discount like Grizzly does...

Bill


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## jeff_g1137 (Sep 22, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Are you going to counter weight the head? I counter weighted my old Rong Fu and will do the same with the CO if I purchase one especially since the spindle sticks out 12 inches from the column, those gear heads plus the motor is a lot of weight pitching forward.



Hi
Have you any photos of the counter weighted, love to see them.


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## zmotorsports (Sep 22, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> I am hoping so (that it's a great machine), but being somewhat a realist, I am sure there will be warts. There always are on these class of machines. I'm just hoping that the process that Paul described to me mitigates the bigger ones.
> 
> But then again I'm one of those oddballs that actually enjoys tweaking, tuning, and making mods for my machines. I am NOT expecting the quality of a Hardinge HLV or that of a new BP in a $2400 mill.
> 
> Bill



Bill, congrats on the new machine.  Please be sure to post up a bunch of pictures and a detailed review once you get it.  I am curious as the  number one thing I liked about this machine when I saw the specs was the 12" Y-axis travel.  Only one in that size/class that has over 9" in the Y direction.


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## coolidge (Sep 23, 2014)

jeff_g1137 said:


> Hi
> Have you any photos of the counter weighted, love to see them.



No but it was a simple counter weight consisting of two overhead pulleys, some 1/4 wire cable with several 50 pound sand bags as counterweight they sell on the east coast for adding weight to the back of your truck for traction in the snow.


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## jeff_g1137 (Sep 23, 2014)

coolidge said:


> No but it was a simple counter weight consisting of two overhead pulleys, some 1/4 wire cable with several 50 pound sand bags as counterweight they sell on the east coast for adding weight to the back of your truck for traction in the snow.



Hi
Is the weight to help with the up & down of the head.
I would think the weight would help the cutter, ????


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## wrmiller (Sep 23, 2014)

jeff_g1137 said:


> Hi
> Is the weight to help with the up & down of the head.
> I would think the weight would help the cutter, ????



Counterweighting reduces the loading on the Z-axis screw, and helps with positional consistently. It also reduces the forward strain on the vertical column. The larger CNCs I have seen all have counterweighted heads.

Bill


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## coolidge (Sep 23, 2014)

jeff_g1137 said:


> Hi
> Is the weight to help with the up & down of the head.
> I would think the weight would help the cutter, ????



The weight of the head plus the motor plus the leverage involved with the head sticking out so far from the column puts a lot of stress on the ways imo and should be counter weighted. In the case of my old IH CNC mill the stepper they used could not handle the load. Even counter weighted it would lose about .040 inch on every upward movement on Z, in 1-3 moves the thing was out of whack over .100 inch. The phrase utterly useless comes to mind, don't get me started on that thing. lol


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## wrmiller (Sep 23, 2014)

zmotorsports said:


> Bill, congrats on the new machine.  Please be sure to post up a bunch of pictures and a detailed review once you get it.  I am curious as the  number one thing I liked about this machine when I saw the specs was the 12" Y-axis travel.  Only one in that size/class that has over 9" in the Y direction.



I plan to Mike (post pictures).  I've been asked by others to take some pictures and write about my observations on this machine. And like you, the Y-axis travel and the head/column interface were the things about this machine that caught my attention.

Last night I received a picture of a 12Z mounted on a stand and sitting in a rather large shop. Wow, this thing looks massive. I sure hope it fits in my tiny little shop! Yesterday when I checked tracking, the estimated delivery date is this Friday. We shall see. I'm having the 220 run to the garage this afternoon.  )

Bill


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## zmotorsports (Sep 23, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> I plan to Mike (post pictures).  I've been asked by others to take some pictures and write about my observations on this machine. And like you, the Y-axis travel and the head/column interface was the things about this machine that caught my attention.
> 
> Last night I received a picture of a 12Z mounted on a stand and sitting in a rather large shop. Wow, this thing looks massive. I sure hope it fits in my tiny little shop! Yesterday when I checked tracking, the estimated delivery date is this Friday. We shall see. I'm having the 220 run to the garage this afternoon.  )
> 
> Bill



Awesome.  Sounds great Bill, I'm happy for ya.


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## coolidge (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm now looking at the Grizzly G0720R or G0722 in comparison...soul searching do I really need 12" of cross travel and 3,000 rpm if I'm honest no I won't be doing production work on the thing. If I have a larger work cube job and the need for speed I can throw that job to a local shop with an industrial CNC mill that will spit it out in a fraction of the time it would take on either of these home shop machines. What I like about the Grizzly is the quiet belt drive brushless DC motor, less expensive plus I have a 10% off coupon and the shipping is $150. Decisions decisions.


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## wrmiller (Sep 25, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I'm now looking at the Grizzly G0720R or G0722 in comparison...soul searching do I really need 12" of cross travel and 3,000 rpm if I'm honest no I won't be doing production work on the thing. If I have a larger work cube job and the need for speed I can throw that job to a local shop with an industrial CNC mill that will spit it out in a fraction of the time it would take on either of these home shop machines. What I like about the Grizzly is the quiet belt drive brushless DC motor, less expensive plus I have a 10% off coupon and the shipping is $150. Decisions decisions.



No offense, but why are you hijacking a thread that simply says I'm getting a mill with a "my choices are cheaper (not), and better" post? I know people do it here all the time (I have been guilty in the past as well, but am trying to behave myself). If we want to do a 'mine is better than yours' thread can we do it someplace else?

Kudos to you if that mill fits your needs. It doesn't mine. Just curious.

Bill


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## jeff_g1137 (Sep 25, 2014)

Hi Bill
Have you got a delivry date yet, i am getting excited & it is not mine.      :thumbsup:
Photos please.

jeff


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## wrmiller (Sep 25, 2014)

jeff_g1137 said:


> Hi Bill
> Have you got a delivry date yet, i am getting excited & it is not mine.      :thumbsup:
> Photos please.
> 
> jeff



Just checked with Roadrunner and they just reported that the trailer was unloaded in Denver today. I am hoping to get a call today to verify delivery tomorrow. If that happens I'll 'borrow' one of my big engineers to go home and help me get it up the driveway and into the garage. Shipping weight is listed as almost 1050lbs. Biggest machine I've ever bought! )

Bill


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## coolidge (Sep 25, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> No offense, but why are you hijacking a thread that simply says I'm getting a mill with a "my choices are cheaper (not), and better" post? I know people do it here all the time (I have been guilty in the past as well, but am trying to behave myself). If we want to do a 'mine is better than yours' thread can we do it someplace else?
> 
> Kudos to you if that mill fits your needs. It doesn't mine. Just curious.
> 
> Bill



I guess I don't understand why you started the thread then, were you just looking for a 'congrats on your mill' thread or did you want to have a discussion? I am in direct contact with CO about the same mill you are getting. I have their pricing, I have checked availability and shipping and options. As you are buying the same mill I joined the thread to discuss the CO. If you want your thread to be just about you then that's fine.


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## george wilson (Sep 25, 2014)

Perhaps(likely) Mr. Miller is just very excited about his new machine and wants to talk about it. Nothing wrong with that. Don't you ever call a friend or 2 to tell them about something new and exciting you are into?

Since he has already ordered the mill,there is not much use in talking about the virtues of another machine.

I have a 1986 Grizzly 16" lathe,thankfully made in Taiwan. It has been lightly used(I do most work on my Hardinge HLVH). It is still in great shape. We had the brother to that machine at work. The motor blew out across the bearings. The apron kept having issues,and I kept fixing them. Eventually,it got to where I could not get it to engage for thread cutting. Luckily we got the budget to get a new lathe,and I gave the Grizzly to the furniture conservation shop.They would never use it for cutting threads anyway. They were not machinists at all. This was in Williamsburg,when I was master tool maker.

My partner Jon,has a 12 x 36" belt drive Grizzly,made in China. It had problems with the QC gearbox. It took Jon 2 YEARS to get Grizzly to get spare parts for him. Now,the gear that engages the rack under the front way has gotten totally buggered down to the nubs. Not hardened,needless to say. The rack has gotten several teeth knocked off. I'm suspicious the rack is made of cast iron. THE RACK IS TOO SMALL FOR THE SIZE OF THE LATHE. I told Jon to reverse the rack. I will manage to fix the gear by cutting off the broken part and making a collar to move the unused part of the gear under the rack. Fortunately,the gear is about 1" wide,and the rack is only 7/16"-too small,as I said.

So,having a Grizzly made in China is not all fun and games. And,there are no more spare parts available for Jon's lathe. Usually for Asian machines over 2 or 3 years old,you cannot get parts. I once had a Sharp lathe at work. Those clowns could not even identify the model of their own product. I had to make the parts myself. And,Sharp is supposedly a good brand. And Taiwanese at that.


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## wrmiller (Sep 26, 2014)

Jeff, they couldn't get it on the truck today. Will be arriving sometime Monday.


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## coolidge (Sep 26, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Jeff, they couldn't get it on the truck today. Will be arriving sometime Monday.



Pics Monday or your mill is pink with tassels and rainbow glitter.


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## wrmiller (Sep 26, 2014)

LOL... Fair enough. :lmao:

Not sure how far I'll get (with the setup, pics, etc.) as I'm still a little nervous about a machine this size. I don't have a backhoe or forklift or tractor to lift this thing. Just a 1-ton HF shop crane. So I'm going to get a perspective on the size of this thing and try to figure out how I'm going to get this on it's stand that is taller, +4", than standard. When I asked for the custom height I measured my tool box lower that my PM25 sits on and thought that would be a good height. I've only gotten one pic of this machine from a friend here and I didn't realize just how much bigger this thing is than my 25. You can stop laughing now coolidge...  

Anyway, I've had a bunch of personal msgs and post here from people wanting to see this thing. I asked my friend a couple of days ago if I could post a pic of his, but he hasn't responded (he did say he's been busy) so I'm going to post it here just so people can get a perspective. This one is on a short stand so he can reach it from a wheelchair but I think you can get an idea of the size of this thing.

If I can get this thing set up, when I finally do buy that G4003g or PM1340gt  it should be a piece of cake. Maybe.




Greg's mill


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## coolidge (Sep 26, 2014)

I'd really like a close up of that X power feed, they don't have a pic on the CO web site. By the way lifting that mill will be easy compared to lifting a G4003G onto its stand. My 29hp diesel Kubota front end loader could curl that mill all day without getting tired but it barely lifted the G4003G, it took every ounce of oomph it had plus some bucket curl at the end to heave it onto its stand. Should be no problem for a 1 ton crane though. Be safe rigging it.


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## wrmiller (Sep 26, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I'd really like a close up of that X power feed, they don't have a pic on the CO web site. By the way lifting that mill will be easy compared to lifting a G4003G onto its stand. My 29hp diesel Kubota front end loader could curl that mill all day without getting tired but it barely lifted the G4003G, it took every ounce of oomph it had plus some bucket curl at the end to heave it onto its stand. Should be no problem for a 1 ton crane though. Be safe rigging it.
> 
> View attachment 84489



You're just full of good news, thanks. 


Did you zoom in on the pic I posted? It's probably not as close as you'd like but it looks the same or very similar to the power feed that Griz sells. From the outside anyway. Isn't this table just a slightly larger version of that found on the Griz? The end cap/bearing support on the end of the table looks similar.

Don't know for sure, just thinking out loud.


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## maker of things (Sep 27, 2014)

Congrats on the mill Bill.  I had to get the 2 ton shop crane to lift mine.  You need the boom extended all the way for the legs to fit around the base, and the 1 ton is too short and only 500# IIRC.  I did it all by myself on crappy broken concrete with no accidents or injuries, just take your time.  It is a beast being all black and looming over you, if you are going taller on the base it will be even more so.


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## wrmiller (Sep 27, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Congrats on the mill Bill.  I had to get the 2 ton shop crane to lift mine.  You need the boom extended all the way for the legs to fit around the base, and the 1 ton is too short and only 500# IIRC.  I did it all by myself on crappy broken concrete with no accidents or injuries, just take your time.  It is a beast being all black and looming over you, if you are going taller on the base it will be even more so.
> 
> View attachment 84503



Yo Dude! I sure hope you're like 5'10" or something, or that puppy is huge! (just kidding on the height...no offense intended)  

I knew that this thing is bigger than the one I have, but wow. OK, guess I'm going to have to go to the local tool rental place and see if they can deliver a 2T shop hoist next week.

I'm 6'3" and like where the handles are on my little machine (it didn't used to be so little...) and it's sitting almost 40" off the ground on a tool box lower. Hence the request to CO to have them add 4" of height to my stand. I'm getting the one with the wheels on it. I 'thought' the wheels would come in handy if I have to roll the machine around the garage. But after looking at your machine, I think forethought will be required before I give that puppy a push...

So give me your impressions on your mill! How long have you had it? I absolutely love the size of that base and column. And I was told by Paul that they increased the size of the head/column interface, but wow.

Now I can't wait to get mine!  :ups:


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## coolidge (Sep 27, 2014)

WR with the head lowered its quite stable.


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## wrmiller (Sep 27, 2014)

coolidge said:


> WR with the head lowered its quite stable.



Coolidge, it may be a while before I get my mill up on it's stand. Gonna have to think this one through as it's 'slightly' larger than I am used to. )


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## coolidge (Sep 27, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Coolidge, it may be a while before I get my mill up on it's stand. Gonna have to think this one through as it's 'slightly' larger than I am used to. )



I used an engine hoist to heave my old Fong Fu 45 onto its stand. Since your stand is on wheels you can probably rig it outside then roll it into your shop. Remember its only 700 pounds and a 1 ton engine hoist can handle 2,000 pounds. Rigging the lathe will involve far more pucker you may walk funny afterwards. Congrats again on the mill it does look a beast.


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## wrmiller (Sep 27, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I used an engine hoist to heave my old Fong Fu 45 onto its stand. Since your stand is on wheels you can probably rig it outside then roll it into your shop. Remember its only 700 pounds and a 1 ton engine hoist can handle 2,000 pounds. Rigging the lathe will involve far more pucker you may walk funny afterwards. Congrats again on the mill it does look a beast.



Funny you should mention "pucker". When I used to road race motorcycles (adrenalin junkie fresh out of the Corps) we used the phrase PuckerFactor to rate various corners at different tracks. I can remember a couple that had everyone walking funny the first time or two through them at speed. Imagine a two wheel drift at near triple-digit speeds in a corner. Margin of error? None.


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## coolidge (Sep 27, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Funny you should mention "pucker". When I used to road race motorcycles (adrenalin junkie fresh out of the Corps) we used the phrase PuckerFactor to rate various corners at different tracks. I can remember a couple that had everyone walking funny the first time or two through them at speed. Imagine a two wheel drift at near triple-digit speeds in a corner. Margin of error? None.



My brother owned GP Suspension and manufactured suspension components for road race motorcycles. I attended a few races years ago, suffices to say you people are crazy! lol It was always fun watching the novice class, seems like there was always at least one Harley owner flat tracking it, the crotch rockets would come zooming past then about 10 second later here would come the Harley guy all alone. lol


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## maker of things (Sep 27, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Yo Dude! I sure hope you're like 5'10" or something, or that puppy is huge! (just kidding on the height...no offense intended)


  None taken, 5'11" in fact.  I made the stand 28" tall fyi.


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## maker of things (Sep 27, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I used an engine hoist to heave my old Fong Fu 45 onto its stand. Since your stand is on wheels you can probably rig it outside then roll it into your shop. Remember its only 700 pounds and a 1 ton engine hoist can handle 2,000 pounds. Rigging the lathe will involve far more pucker you may walk funny afterwards. Congrats again on the mill it does look a beast.


  IIRC the 12z is more like 1000#  a 1 ton engine hoist can lift 2000 lbs at the shortest arm length, I needed the longest reach of the 2 ton model to get above the machine with straps and reach high enough to get on the stand.  Didn't try a 1 ton first, but was advised I would need the 2ton so I got that.


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## wrmiller (Sep 27, 2014)

maker of things said:


> IIRC the 12z is more like 1000#  a 1 ton engine hoist can lift 2000 lbs at the shortest arm length, I needed the longest reach of the 2 ton model to get above the machine with straps and reach high enough to get on the stand.  Didn't try a 1 ton first, but was advised I would need the 2ton so I got that.



Man, this puppy is going to be tall. Fortunately, my little work shop is in the half-car portion of a three and a half car garage with no rafters/a-frames immediately above it. Someday I may have someone build me a portable 2T gantry out of aluminum that is height adjustable and can be taken apart for moving and storage. Not sure how much something like that would cost though... 

Charter Oak's website says 770 on the weight of the 12Z but I understand what you're saying. When I get the mill I will take a look at the how the stand on wheels can be positioned under the hoist. I 'may' be able to cock the stand at an angle to the hoist's legs and get close enough that way.

Or I'll go rent a 2 ton hoist.


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## MarioM (Sep 27, 2014)

I just realize you are in the very same situation I was a few days ago, congratulation for the new  mill.  I was also looking for the Charter Oak before I purchased mine.  It looks great and was interesting the idea of the custom base.  Now that I have mine assembled....I think I would like it a little bit higher.  I will try it first and see what happens.
As I told you before it is a heavy machine.....I spent two days thinking and wondering and finally I got it in place...it is quite a work!!....but very regarding.  Looking forward to see yours on place.


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## jeff_g1137 (Sep 28, 2014)

maker of things said:


> None taken, 5'11" in fact.  I made the stand 28" tall fyi.



Hi
what is the max height of the mill & stand, please

I have emailed CO if they can deliver to the UK, but not had a reply yet.


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## maker of things (Sep 28, 2014)

Depends on the stand.  I built my stand at 28" over all height. The mill alone measures 60-61" above the stand to the top of the motor max z.  The table is 9.75" above the stand.  I was shooting for about 40" off the floor to the vise for comfort in working.


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## wrmiller (Sep 28, 2014)

Wow. I'm going to be close to 90" at max extension. I doubt I'll be there very frequently, if ever (maybe a pic for the family album).

This next week or two should be interesting...

EDIT: I may have to make some outriggers for this stand because if they didn't widen it some it may be too narrow for the height of this whole rig.


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## coolidge (Sep 28, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Wow. *I'm going to be close to 90" at max extension*. I doubt I'll be there very frequently, if ever (maybe a pic for the family album).
> 
> This next week or two should be interesting...
> 
> EDIT: I may have to make some outriggers for this stand because if they didn't widen it some it may be too narrow for the height of this whole rig.



I have heard some tall tales in my time but 90 inches did you misplace a decimal point or something? :yikes:


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## wrmiller (Sep 28, 2014)

Ooops. 60" of machine height plus 39" of table height.


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## Travis7s (Sep 28, 2014)

I must say the black paint looks super sharp, most machines tend to have dull or odd colors IMO.


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## coolidge (Sep 28, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Ooops. 60" of machine height plus 39" of table height.



Ahem that joke flew over you ;-)


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## Duker (Sep 29, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> LOL... Fair enough. :lmao:
> 
> Not sure how far I'll get (with the setup, pics, etc.) as I'm still a little nervous about a machine this size. I don't have a backhoe or forklift or tractor to lift this thing. Just a 1-ton HF shop crane. So I'm going to get a perspective on the size of this thing and try to figure out how I'm going to get this on it's stand that is taller, +4", than standard. When I asked for the custom height I measured my tool box lower that my PM25 sits on and thought that would be a good height. I've only gotten one pic of this machine from a friend here and I didn't realize just how much bigger this thing is than my 25. You can stop laughing now coolidge...
> 
> ...



Thank you for your comments on the mill. I have been in research and shopping mode and just started to review the CO mill so it has been very helpful to read and see some additional details. I was curious about this base shown in the picture you posted. Is there another link or source where I could get a better look? Storage is at a premium in my little shop so I would be interested in building storage into the base like this one.


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## wrmiller (Sep 29, 2014)

Greg built that base himself. I posted that pic just so others could see the machine. I suspect Greg will post more pics as he gets his shop set up. I hope so anyway.


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## wrmiller (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, it's here. I got the sides of the crate off, and put the wheels on the stand. The stand is ~34" tall. I remember asking for 39, but maybe they thought I was meaning the height of the mill table. With the taller base it should put the handwheels just a bit lower than the PMs. Should be OK. Not going to get any more done until the weekend or maybe Friday night. I need to get the shop hoist out and see if I can lift this thing high enough to get it on its stand at the 1/2T setting.

Proof I received it. More later.


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## dave2176 (Sep 29, 2014)

Pictures? I guess it did happen. ) Looks good.
Dave


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## jeff_g1137 (Sep 29, 2014)

Hi
Looking good, it is going to be a good weekend, me think's :rubbinghands:


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## coolidge (Sep 29, 2014)

That thing looks *****in in black congrats! Close up pics of the ways please when you get a chance.


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## wrmiller (Sep 29, 2014)

coolidge said:


> That thing looks *****in in black congrats! Close up pics of the ways please when you get a chance.



Will do. Upon inspection they appear to be ground. Not too smooth, finish feels about right. should hold oil well.


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## MarioM (Oct 1, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Depends on the stand.  I built my stand at 28" over all height. The mill alone measures 60-61" above the stand to the top of the motor max z.  The table is 9.75" above the stand.  I was shooting for about 40" off the floor to the vise for comfort in working.



Hi maker of things.  I am also 5'11" and the table of my new mill is 35" using the  25" base that came with it, but I have to bend my knees or my back to reach the front handwheel and feels uncomfortable.  Are you OK with the height of yours?.....I guess I will be a lot better with at least 4 more inches.


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## wrmiller (Oct 1, 2014)

My stand that I ordered with my mill stands at 34" high. IIRC, Jon says the mill table is 9" above the bottom of the base. That should be about right for me. I had Co add 4" of height to my stand when I ordered it.


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## maker of things (Oct 2, 2014)

MarioM said:


> Hi maker of things.  I am also 5'11" and the table of my new mill is 35" using the  25" base that came with it, but I have to bend my knees or my back to reach the front handwheel and feels uncomfortable.  Are you OK with the height of yours?.....I guess I will be a lot better with at least 4 more inches.


It doesn't feel bad to me, but I am using my mill manually until I ever get around to starting the conversion to cnc, which is what I bought the mill for.  If you are planning to stay manual you would be much better served utilizing Bill's experience.

Bill, what's the holdup?  You had your new machine a whole day before me, those chips won't make themselves.)


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## coolidge (Oct 2, 2014)

maker of things said:


> It doesn't feel bad to me, but I am using my mill manually until I ever get around to starting the conversion to cnc, which is what I bought the mill for.  If you are planning to stay manual you would be much better served utilizing Bill's experience.
> 
> Bill, what's the holdup?  You had your new machine a whole day before me, those chips won't make themselves.)



Apparently he's sewing a quilt or hemming his dress or something. ;-)


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## wrmiller (Oct 2, 2014)

So I rented a 2T hoist (a friend provided the pick'em up truck) and had the mill just far enough off the pallet to slide it out when I noticed that the boom was twisted off-center and the hoist was sitting on only two wheels! So I quickly put the mill down on the floor of the garage (mild thump, hope I didn't hurt anything). and had to use a prybar to move the mill out of the way for now. ****** doesn't even begin to describe my mood at that point.

So last night I bought a 2T hoist from a vendor on FleBay and should have it mid-next week. Until then, she (mill) is sitting forlornly on the garage floor in a corner. She looks pretty sad. I knew buying a machine this size was going to be trouble, but I guess I underestimated just how much.

After reading Jon's lathe thread I'm now thinking that a larger lathe could be more trouble than it's worth. But I may change my mind after I cool off a bit.


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## coolidge (Oct 2, 2014)

Bummer, take your time and be safe lifting that mother.


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## wrmiller (Oct 2, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Bummer, take your time and be safe lifting that mother.



Will do, thanks. I'm just glad I noticed the hoist was tweaked BEFORE I tried to lift the mill any higher. I looked up a portable 2T gantry, but those things are pricey! I'll make sure I pick Jon's brain a bit more about how he did his mill before I do this.


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## MarioM (Oct 2, 2014)

It also happens to me....no free time to work during the week.  I would like to try my mill a bit higher but definitely need an engine hoist.....there is no way I can use the portable fork lift......not enough height.  Not available for rent one around here, so I have been looking for a new one and found a couple.......no Internet purchases of such things in this part of the world.  They are made in china and the difference between the 1T and 2T is only the hydraulic jack. Wonder if this is the way it works. I think will give it a try.


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## maker of things (Oct 3, 2014)

It would be a bit of extra work, but you could disassemble the mill.  I think a few have indicated they figured the head at around 300#.  Then you could also pick the base up from closer to the table.  I ran straps corner to corner to those big bolts sticking out the sides of the base and picked up where they cross so I wouldn't put any strain on the column.  I think one strap was an actual lifting sling, and then I used 2 ratchet tie down straps so I could adjust the load so it would sit level.


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## maker of things (Oct 3, 2014)

MarioM said:


> They are made in china and the difference between the 1T and 2T is only the hydraulic jack. Wonder if this is the way it works.


 I looked at the 1T and 2T cranes at harbor freight side by side and the 1T has a shorter boom and base and subsequently less lift range.  I think the 1T cylinders have the power to lift the machine, but the crane needs to be heavy duty enough to not have the material fail.  My memory is that at full extension the 1T crane is only rated to 500#.


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## wrmiller (Oct 3, 2014)

Thanks guys. When I spoke of lifting this thing with Paul the Ops Mgr at Charter Oak he said that lifting by the head is the safest way to do this. When I lifted the machine to get it off the pallet, I was around the round part of the head/column mount and another strap around that one and the column to keep it from shifting. With this, the front of the mill base was drooping a few inches. I'm thinking that when I attempt this again, I will lift more under the head itself to balance the machine better. Next week isn't going to get here soon enough...


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## coolidge (Oct 3, 2014)

Recommend your main lift strap is around the head/column as you proposed but then use secondary ratchet straps to level it. I do this frequently for heavy lifts for all sorts of things, my lathe for example. Just did this last week lifting an awkward 600 pound 5 foot wide rototiller for my tractor.


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## wrmiller (Oct 8, 2014)

Well, the 2T hoist showed up today. Fortunately the thing showed up in two boxes, with the heaviest one weighing about 134 lbs. I was blowing pretty hard after carrying it only about 20' or so. I guess we all get old(er)...  

I'll get the hoist assembled tonight. Not sure if I'll get the mill lifted onto it's stand tonight or not. Stay tuned.


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## coolidge (Oct 8, 2014)

Excellent! Can't wait for the pics.


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## wrmiller (Oct 8, 2014)

Man, I'm starting to wonder what ELSE can go sideways on this effort. To summarize:

Started putting the hoist together when I noticed that the sliding portion of the boom is missing. So is the chain/hook. The heavy box showed up all wrapped in plastic and torn open on both ends from people dragging the thing instead of picking it up. Granted...I wouldn't want to carry this puppy very far, but hey, I'm 60 years old. I'll bet the guys dragging this thing were in their 20s or 30s.

So, I wrote the vendor and he asked for part names and numbers and will see if the manufacturer can replace these parts or if they have to ship me a new one. Cool, but this is gonna take time and I'm kinda getting impatient. Went back out to the garage and pulled the sliding part of the boom off my 1T (I guess it was a good thing I had it, or as my wife says "everything happens for a reason") and yup, it fits almost perfect in the 2Ts boom. Looks a little short though...

Finish putting the hoist together and start doing trial fits of the mill's stand over the hoist. Isn't going to work as the sliding boom doesn't extend far enough, and the stand can't get over the legs of the hoist. Whilst contemplating violence, i.e., shooting this puppy just to make myself feel better, I came up with an idea: take the wheels off the hoist and slide it around on it's frame. The stand will roll right over the legs and it looks like I can cock it just so and get it under the hook. Cool.

So I carefully hook up the mill and with fingers crossed (I'm the only one here, so if things go sideways...) I start lifting the mill off the floor. The front is still drooping several inches, but things are looking good so far. I take my time and gingerly raise the mill trying not to jostle it too much. I get the hoist at full extension, wait for it, and I'm not high enough. Damn...

Back on the floor and me sitting on a stool trying to think of something. I put the head all the way down to the table, and shorten the chain to the last link before the hook. Here we go again. Still not high enough. Double Damn...

Good thing my wife isn't hear to hear me swearing. All I needed was my old D.I. hat and I probably could have peeled paint off a battleship. I definitely could have had some boot privates wetting their trousers like the old days.

Then I had an idea. I was pretty close, so I decided to take the wheels off the mill's stand and get it as low on it's feet as possible. While the mill was hanging there I did a quick removal of the wheels and slid the stand under the mill with just front right corner of the mill touching the stand. I tweaked the last half inch out of the hoist and then proceeded to wrestle the chip tray between the stand and the mill. Won't go into details as I'm sure some people here would be screaming "unsafe!" but hey, I'm still here, everything is still attached, and I only bled a little.  

Once I had the mill and chip tray on the stand, I slid the hoist out from under it and then proceeded to jack the stand up with its feet and put the wheels back on. The mill is sitting where it's going to stay and I will level and go over it this weekend. 5 hours to get this far. I'm tired.  

I apologize for the pics: They were taken with my phone not my camera, and my hands were shaking a bit. Like I said I'm tired.


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## brav65 (Oct 9, 2014)

Nice work Bill. I can't tell you how many times I have had to make something work when I am by myself.  I have never, knock on wood, gotten hurt, but I had to have a two level fusion in my neck from two collapsed discs.  My doctor told me it was from beating up my body by lifting things I shouldn't have.  I was also a strength coach in college, I am sure that didn't help.  Anyway congrats on the new mill.  I looked at the CO's, but they were a little out of my budget.  It will be interesting to see how you make out.

Good Luck!


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## wrmiller (Oct 9, 2014)

brav65 said:


> Anyway congrats on the new mill.  I looked at the CO's, but they were a little out of my budget.  It will be interesting to see how you make out.
> 
> Good Luck!



Hey Brooks,

I didn't know about the COs when I bought my PM25 or I might have waited until I could afford it. But, I'm not planning to get rid of Blue just yet.

I've got some ideas for stiffening the column a bit and am going to redesign parts of the pulley system I bought and will use it for light duty/high rpm work with small cutters. I'll use El Hefe for the larger stuff. 

In the last pic I posted you can see, albeit somewhat blurry, just how much bigger the CO is compared to the PM. A friend here was telling me how he buries a 1/2" end mill in 1/2" 4140 and the mill doesn't complain a bit. Different tools for different jobs.

I did a light cleanup on El Hefe and oiled the ways to try them out. Very smooth. Maker of Things was telling me that he didn't even check tram on his mill until today or adjust the gibs. After checking the tram he didn't have to touch a thing. I'm hoping mine turns out as good as his.

Now that I've got the 'heavy stuff' out of the way, I'm looking forward to the weekend.  :allgood:


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## coolidge (Oct 9, 2014)

Way to go on the creative solution and refraining from dressing in cammo and going on a rampage. ;-)


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## maker of things (Oct 9, 2014)

Bill, good work.  I say no fouls for any bleeding that can be stopped with a bandage in a situation like that.  I think your garage is a little too tall though, the mill looks less menacing when you can't see the ceiling in the pic.


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## wrmiller (Oct 9, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Bill, good work.  I say no fouls for any bleeding that can be stopped with a bandage in a situation like that.  I think your garage is a little too tall though, the mill looks less menacing when you can't see the ceiling in the pic.



It's still pretty menacing, all black and such. Height is just about perfect for me @ 6'3". Glad I asked for an extra 4" of height on the stand. The bleeding was minimal. I raised a burr on the edge of the chip tray getting it between the mill and stand. Then I promptly ran the inside of my middle finger over it. Right in the joint too... @#$^@$%^@%$  

First mill I've ever owned that I had to look 'up' to see the fwd/rev switch (my friends BP clone was like that, but I didn't own it). And that is with the head mid-range in Z. And near as I can tell, the ceiling is somewhere between 9 and 10' tall.

  But I still named him El Hefe (The Boss). :roflmao:


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## zmotorsports (Oct 9, 2014)

Congrats Bill.  Looks great.  Now get to making chips.


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## wrmiller (Oct 9, 2014)

zmotorsports said:


> Congrats Bill.  Looks great.  Now get to making chips.



Can I at least wire the plug and check tram? It's easier to do when I don't have chips all over the place.  

That reminds me, I can actually use a 3" face mill now. Any recommendations? I have to surface some iron and steel for my new cross slide and compound I'm going to make.

Oh and Mike: I saved some weight going with this mill over the 935, but it probably takes up as much room as yours. But at least I can (carefully) move mine around on it's wheels.


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## jeff_g1137 (Oct 9, 2014)

Hi
Looking good, great mill.

Jeff


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## zmotorsports (Oct 9, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> *Can I at least wire the plug and check tram?* It's easier to do when I don't have chips all over the place.
> 
> That reminds me, I can actually use a 3" face mill now. Any recommendations? I have to surface some iron and steel for my new cross slide and compound I'm going to make.
> 
> Oh and Mike: I saved some weight going with this mill over the 935, but it probably takes up as much room as yours. But at least I can (carefully) *move mine around on it's wheels.*



Sure, but what is taking you so long.:whistle:  There was a time I thought about making mine "mobile" to move around the shop but figured that would just be more of a hassle than leaving it in it's assigned spot and working around it.  Probably six of one and a half a dozen of the other.

As far as a facing mill/cutter, I bought one from Shars a few months ago and have used it a couple of times now, works pretty well for the price.  I have a Glacern in my sights but a little more saving first.


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## maker of things (Oct 9, 2014)

I have been eyeballing the Tormach superfly cutter.  I was quite impressed by the videos.


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## darkzero (Oct 9, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> That reminds me, I can actually use a 3" face mill now. Any recommendations? I have to surface some iron and steel for my new cross slide and compound I'm going to make.



I was told that 2.5" is just about max for a BP mill & R8 taper unless only taking light cuts. Stalling the motor is one thing for low HP but the R8 taper is not designed to handle it & you may have chatter issues. I never used a large FM on a BP so I don't know & just listened. 

I went with a 2.5" 45° FM from Glacern. Got a great deal on it from a member of another forum who converted his PM45 to CNC & changed the spindle. And it was the integral shank model that I had my eye on, no separate shell arbor. It cuts like butter but makes a hell of mess in my garage, I've never stalled my motor with it. I just ordered a Dorian 2" FM, hopefully it shows up soon as I'm really curious how it will perform.

IH used to offer an ISO30 taper spindle for these style mills & is what that other member converted his too, I was there the day he received it. Not sure about now. Similar taper as an R8 but much longer.


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## coolidge (Oct 9, 2014)

Still no chips? Drop and give me 20! Belt drive update, the good news is CO's price for the belt drive is the 2 speed belt drive featured on ArizonVideo's youtube videos. The bad news is they are only getting 2 of the expected 3 units and both are already spoken for so its hurry up and wait.


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## wrmiller (Oct 9, 2014)

darkzero said:


> I was told that 2.5" is just about max for a BP mill & R8 taper unless only taking light cuts. Stalling the motor is one thing for low HP but the R8 taper is not designed to handle it & you may have chatter issues. I never used a large FM on a BP so I don't know & just listened.
> 
> I went with a 2.5" 45° FM from Glacern. Got a great deal on it from a member of another forum who converted his PM45 to CNC & changed the spindle. And it was the integral shank model that I had my eye on, no separate shell arbor. It cuts like butter but makes a hell of mess in my garage, I've never stalled my motor with it. I just ordered a Dorian 2" FM, hopefully it shows up soon as I'm really curious how it will perform.
> 
> IH used to offer an ISO30 taper spindle for these style mills & is what that other member converted his too, I was there the day he received it. Not sure about now. Similar taper as an R8 but much longer.



Thanks Will,

My friend used to use a 3" on his BP clone, but with very light cuts, and he had the same HP as me (3HP). I have looked at the FM45, and liked what I saw, but will have to save up for it.

 The ISO30 is an upgrade available to me, but in researching it the only holders I could find started at  1/2" and went up to 1.5". And they are a bit more pricey than R8 collets. Not sure I'll ever run a 1" end mill, but then I also said I'd never own a mill this large. 

I will look at getting a 2.5". Thanks.


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## wrmiller (Oct 9, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Still no chips? Drop and give me 20! Belt drive update, the good news is CO's price for the belt drive is the 2 speed belt drive featured on ArizonVideo's youtube videos. The bad news is they are only getting 2 of the expected 3 units and both are already spoken for so its hurry up and wait.



Is that the one that spins to 5k? That would be cool. In my last conversation with Paul, he was saying that even with the belt drive conversion there is still a lot of torque at slower speeds. I guess I'll have to get on the waiting list, but for now the 3hp VFD should give me more than enough range to start playing with.

EDIT: So...you said two of the expected three are already spoken for. Are you talking to CO about a mill? Hmmm?


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## darkzero (Oct 9, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Thanks Will,
> 
> My friend used to use a 3" on his BP clone, but with very light cuts, and he had the same HP as me (3HP). I have looked at the FM45, and liked what I saw, but will have to save up for it.
> 
> ...



No problem Bill. When I was ready to buy a FM & was told that, I thought, sure I can live with taking light cuts. But the more I thought about it taking very light cuts all the time would suck. Of course on alumn it might not be so bad but I didn't want to take the chance & I'm glad I went with the 2.5" 45°. IIRC the the Glacern FM45 2.5" integral shank goes on sale for $129. They should have a sale coming up during Halloween & Thanksgiving. At least that's when I purchased my vise & other stuff from them.

I too heard ISO30 tooling costs more but when I looked it up they really don't cost much more at all, plus a lot more tooling manufacturers offer stuff in ISO30 & not much for R8. I had thought about the ISO30 conversion at the time too but decided I'll be fine with R8 while I have my current mill. I don't use R8 collets often though, mostly just for setup. I use ER16 & ER40 for milling.


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## wrmiller (Oct 9, 2014)

darkzero said:


> No problem Bill. When I was ready to buy a FM & was told that, I thought, sure I can live with taking light cuts. But the more I thought about it taking very light cuts all the time would suck. Of course on alumn it might not be so bad but I didn't want to take the chance & I'm glad I went with the 2.5" 45°. IIRC the the Glacern FM45 2.5" integral shank goes on sale for $129. They should have a sale coming up during Halloween & Thanksgiving. At least that's when I purchased my vise & other stuff from them.
> 
> I too heard ISO30 tooling costs more but when I looked it up they really don't cost much more at all, plus a lot more tooling manufacturers offer stuff in ISO30 & not much for R8. I had thought about the ISO30 conversion at the time too but decided I'll be fine with R8 while I have my current mill. I don't use R8 collets often though, mostly just for setup. I use ER16 & ER40 for milling.



Correction: Charter Oak offers a NT30 spindle upgrade. Different I think.


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## darkzero (Oct 9, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Correction: Charter Oak offers a NT30 spindle upgrade. Different I think.



I'm not for sure but I believe NT30 & ISO30 have the same taper, it's just the drawbar thread that is different. NT30 tooling has imperial threads & ISO30 tooling has metric threads. So I assume the spindle doesn't matter, just the tooling & drawbar. One of them is more popular than the other, I think ISO30 is more popular, well amongst Asian machines as I often see the R8/ISO30 option with mill manufacturers.

EDIT: Just looked it up, looks like the difference is only the drawbar thread so the spindle should be able to accept both. Of the 2, not sure which is actually more popular. Doesn't matter, we have R8 anyway. And I have too much tooling in R8 now for me to change to ISO30 & start over. Even if/when I get a knee mill (maybe), I'll probably just stick to R8 so I don't have to buy tooling all over again.


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## zmotorsports (Oct 9, 2014)

darkzero said:


> IIRC the the Glacern FM45 2.5" integral shank goes on sale for $129. They should have a sale coming up during Halloween & Thanksgiving.



Thanks Will.  I have been eyeballing that one for when it goes on sale.  I'll have to keep checking.


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## coolidge (Oct 9, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Is that the one that spins to 5k? That would be cool. In my last conversation with Paul, he was saying that even with the belt drive conversion there is still a lot of torque at slower speeds. I guess I'll have to get on the waiting list, but for now the 3hp VFD should give me more than enough range to start playing with.
> 
> EDIT: So...you said two of the expected three are already spoken for. Are you talking to CO about a mill? Hmmm?



Yes that's the 5k version. I asked Paul about torque with the belt drive, one of their mills has the two speed belt drive installed and they have no problem drilling and tapping using the lower speed. I also exchanged email with ArizonaVideo who makes the kits and I got the feeling from him the 2 speed was the way to go.

Look here, my CO mill is INBOUND and if I make chips before you I'm going to mock you without mercy! :rofl:


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## wrmiller (Oct 9, 2014)

darkzero said:


> I'm not for sure but I believe NT30 & ISO30 have the same taper, it's just the drawbar thread that is different. NT30 tooling has imperial threads & ISO30 tooling has metric threads. So I assume the spindle doesn't matter, just the tooling & drawbar. One of them is more popular than the other, I think ISO30 is more popular, well amongst Asian machines as I often see the R8/ISO30 option with mill manufacturers.
> 
> EDIT: Just looked it up, looks like the difference is only the drawbar thread so the spindle should be able to accept both. Of the 2, not sure which is actually more popular. Doesn't matter, we have R8 anyway. And I have too much tooling in R8 now for me to change to ISO30 & start over. Even if/when I get a knee mill (maybe), I'll probably just stick to R8 so I don't have to buy tooling all over again.



Well, I'm not sure what to do. I need to buy collets for the new machine and am not sure if I want to buy more R8 collets or maybe go ER. Thoughts?


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## wrmiller (Oct 9, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Yes that's the 5k version. I asked Paul about torque with the belt drive, one of their mills has the two speed belt drive installed and they have no problem drilling and tapping using the lower speed. I also exchanged email with ArizonaVideo who makes the kits and I got the feeling from him the 2 speed was the way to go.
> 
> Look here, my CO mill is INBOUND and if I make chips before you I'm going to mock you without mercy! :rofl:



Good to hear (about the mill)!  :thumbsup2:

I just figured out that I screwed up... My clamp kit that I have for the PM25 is too small for El Hefe. He takes 5/8". So I just ordered a kit. Hopefully it will be here in a few days. So now I'm wondering what else I missed...  :thinking:


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## darkzero (Oct 9, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Well, I'm not sure what to do. I need to buy collets for the new machine and am not sure if I want to buy more R8 collets or maybe go ER. Thoughts?



Nothing wrong with R8 & they are the cheaper route to go. I just like using ER collets more & I also use them on the lathe. R8 collets grip towards the front of the collet so the smaller the shank is off of the collet size the less grip it will have. ER collets clamp over the full length of the collet so they should be more accurate in theory & have tighter clamping forces. They also have a wider clamping range per collet size. 

Downsides are if using in the lathe they're not good for clamping shorter work like 5C would. And the use of a collet chuck ads extension to the spindle & you loose Z capacity. But I have not had a problem with chatter or lack of Z on my PM45. And if I ever need to couple of inches or so in Z I could always just pop in a R8 collet. My mill came with a cheap set of 8th R8 collets so I'm fine with that.  

Although I really don't mind messing with the drawbar, some people like ER for not having to mess with the draw bar for tooling changes. I currently have 3 ER chucks & just swap them out with endmills ready to go in them. ER is the most common collet system for workholding throughout the world. I personally probably don't need the benefits that they offer but I sure do love them over R8 collets.


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## MarioM (Oct 9, 2014)

Good job!!...Your new mill looks great.  I know the feeling of the mill hanging in the air.


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## dave2176 (Oct 9, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Well, I'm not sure what to do. I need to buy collets for the new machine and am not sure if I want to buy more R8 collets or maybe go ER. Thoughts?



I'm thinking Tormach. Like the thought of everything hanging on a holder and changing it out with a spring/pneumatic changer.

Dave


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## wrmiller (Oct 10, 2014)

dave2176 said:


> I'm thinking Tormach. Like the thought of everything hanging on a holder and changing it out with a spring/pneumatic changer.
> 
> Dave



If I stay with the R8s I can upgrade to the CO quick change system pretty easily.


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## brav65 (Oct 10, 2014)

Awesome Bill!  My mill showed up today, I got it uncrated and up on the base, but that was it.


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## maker of things (Oct 10, 2014)

I'm staying with r8 tooling. I scavenged a kurt power drawbar from an scrapped hurco that someday I will install.  Figured that would be best of both worlds.  dedicated R8 endmill holders for 1/4 ,3/8 and 1/2" endmills, r8 er 32 collet chuck for all others.  There is an ebay vendor that sells 10 packs of er32 collet chucks with 3/4" straight shanks (tormach style) that I seriously considered, but found just a few too many instances of the holders getting pulled out during heavy cuts (my favorite kind).

Seriously check out the tormach superfly cutter though.  They have some decent thought behind driving the available hp to one insert (in my amateur opinion).


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## maker of things (Oct 10, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Good to hear (about the mill)!  :thumbsup2:
> 
> I just figured out that I screwed up... My clamp kit that I have for the PM25 is too small for El Hefe. He takes 5/8". So I just ordered a kit. Hopefully it will be here in a few days. So now I'm wondering what else I missed...  :thinking:


Bill, I would double check your slots.  I tried a 5/8 nut and it was tight most places on my bed.  I am ordering 9/16".


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## coolidge (Oct 10, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> If I stay with the R8s I can upgrade to the CO quick change system pretty easily.



FYI I don't believe the Mach 1 quick change is compatible with the belt drive, I saw that mentioned by someone who purchased both and CO said ooops. After looking at Mach 1 and Royal Products quick change systems I'm probably just going with this collet chuck set  http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=953531&PMAKA=505-2213 and a Albrecht R8 keyless chuck, been there done that before.


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## wrmiller (Oct 10, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Bill, I would double check your slots.  I tried a 5/8 nut and it was tight most places on my bed.  I am ordering 9/16".



Well thanks for the heads up Jon, even it's it a bit too late.  

Too large can be taken care of on Blue (mill) or even a belt grinder if they are not too far out of spec. I have no welding capability so too small is a show stopper.


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## wrmiller (Oct 10, 2014)

Well, I heard back from the vendor about my shop hoist. The manufacturer cannot/will not ship the missing pieces, so the vendor was asking me to ship the whole thing back to him for replacement with another one. Laudable, but the cheesy boxes this thing came in were utterly destroyed getting the thing here the first time. His comment was "any two boxes will do". For almost 150lbs. of metal. Wow.

So I checked Speedy Metals for some 2.5" square tubing and asked the vendor to cover material costs for me to fix this. He accepted, so now I get to finish my boom for my hoist. But I'll do it a bit better than the factory...

SO glad I had that 1T sitting on the other side of the garage...


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## Chris Bettis (Oct 23, 2015)

Out of curiosity, what are the dimensions of the chip tray on El Hefe?
I just bought a 12z mill should be here late November early December they are out of stock right now.  I already made a stand for it, Paul at CO sent me a dimensional print for the base of the machine to build off of. I just picked up some 16ga cold roll 48x36" today, I plan to make a chip tray for it in the next couple weeks just have to source a bending brake to use. If you had the option would you make the chip tray any larger? Or is it good how it is?


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## wrmiller (Oct 23, 2015)

I'll get some dimensions tomorrow morning for you. I don't know where Littleton is (haven't been here long...) but if you want to see one up close to help better visualize you are more than welcome to come over.

EDIT: Just looked you up, your just south of Denver. Not too far, shop's a mess and the mill is covered in chips right now, but the offer still stands.


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## Chris Bettis (Oct 23, 2015)

That would be awesome actually. Littleton is basically a suburb turned city in sw Denver. 

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## wrmiller (Oct 23, 2015)

I'm home (in the shop) all day tomorrow. Sunday is golf and football...


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## Chris Bettis (Oct 23, 2015)

Tomorrow ill be in greeley with the gf for a dog show. She is a proffesional dog trainer, showing our (her) german shepherd, I doubt she will want to make an extra stop possibly one of the coming weekends would be better.

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## wrmiller (Oct 23, 2015)

Whatever works for you. I'm home most weekends.


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## Chris Bettis (Oct 23, 2015)

Awesome, I must say im getting pretty ansy to get her, ( mill) initially i was expecting it to come in next week ish. But shipping problems in china delayed things. I've been on pins and needles for a month. Been wanting my own mill for 10 yrs now since I graduated at warren tech. 

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## Chris Bettis (Oct 26, 2015)

Out of curiosity, what are the power requirements as far as amperage go for that beast? Even better if you knew difference between single phase vs,  the 3 phase motor. I'll be wiring up a dedicated circuit for the mill while waiting for it to arrive.


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## wrmiller (Oct 26, 2015)

I was told a 20 amp circuit would handle it, so I had a 30 amp put in.


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## wrmiller (Oct 26, 2015)

Chris Bettis said:


> Out of curiosity, what are the dimensions of the chip tray on El Hefe?
> I just bought a 12z mill should be here late November early December they are out of stock right now.  I already made a stand for it, Paul at CO sent me a dimensional print for the base of the machine to build off of. I just picked up some 16ga cold roll 48x36" today, I plan to make a chip tray for it in the next couple weeks just have to source a bending brake to use. If you had the option would you make the chip tray any larger? Or is it good how it is?



Roughly 37" deep by 47" wide. Edges are bent up and the corners welded. Tray is not centered, it's more biased towards and short of the Y-axis handle so you aren't bothered by it when cranking on the handle.


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## Chris Bettis (Oct 26, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> I was told a 20 amp circuit would handle it, so I had a 30 amp put in.


Is that for the original single phase motor, or the fancy 3hp with vfd?


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## wrmiller (Oct 26, 2015)

3 phase.


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