# Bench grinders for has bits and such



## Dman1114 (Jul 23, 2014)

*Bench grinders for HSS bits and such*

Hi I'm new to the scene somewhat....

I will be getting my first lathe soon (fingers crosses). !!!!

Anyhow I need to start getting the shop  (my garage ). Ready

I was wondering what everyone seems to like as far as a bench grinder for sharpening cutters and such. ? 

And who has the best deals? 


Thanks


----------



## DMS (Jul 23, 2014)

I have a cheap "Ryobi" 6" grinder. It's ok, though the rests are not that great. The main thing is to get some good grinding stones and a wheel dresser.


----------



## chips&more (Jul 23, 2014)

A Baldor or Dayton would be an excellent choice. 6” is OK, 8” is Better and then you have the 10” -12" that are for grown-ups. The gray wheels work and the white colored are found to be the best for grinding HSS. If just getting started then one bench grinder is a must. But you may find yourself wanting a wire wheel or buffing wheel or other choices of stones. So, your bench grinder inventory may grow. Changing grinding wheels for something else is a pain. Because you need to re-dress the stone every time it has been re-mounted. Hence the need for more than one bench/pedestal grinder. If you buy used, make sure it has the tool rests, all the safety shields and the end plates that cover the wheels. If it has an "industrial" pedestal with it, that’s a big + because those things are pricey even though they are just a hunk of case iron…Good Luck


----------



## SWARFEATER (Jul 23, 2014)

my bench grinding area, that's a plain jane craftsman 8", 1 hp on the left,  then theres the 12" 5 hp on the right that I got at an auction for $200.  then the 3" wheel on the right cost $150 on fleabay.  for just sharpening a 8" would be fine but for any kind of real grinding, the bigger the better, that 12" removes metal faster than my mill !!!
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
I use a green wheel on the craftsman for touching up carbide and modified the left table on the 12" to make it bigger and add a miter slot for a fence. does everything I need and especially the coarse wheel on the 12" right. it really is a metal dissolver !!


----------



## Don B (Jul 23, 2014)

Personally I like the 8 inch for tool grinding, and get a grinding wheel balancer, I use one I purchased form Lee Valley Tools,with this balancer you need to buy stones that have a minimum 1" center.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=49226&cat=1,43072

I'm sure there's other balancers that work just as well, the balancer makes such a big difference, it's hard to put a nice accurate shape or small radius on your tools if your chasing your grinder down the bench because it's hopping.
As far as the grinder goes I wouldn't spend big money, just if you find one in your price range look for a review on the net, see if there standing up for people, but when you get it pop the original wheels off and start it up to make sure there are no vibrations, with out the wheels on it should run dead smooth, if not take it back and try a different brand, and you should be good to go.


----------



## DMS (Jul 23, 2014)

I will also add that lots of folks seems to like belt sanders/belt grinders for sharpening tool bits. I have never used one, but it's something to think about.


----------



## frostheave (Jul 23, 2014)

I am certainly no expert, but this is what I found while researching bench grinders.

Literally EVERY 6" grinder I looked at in person, Ryobi, Craftsman, Dewalt, Jet, etc, the grinding wheels wobbled side to side.  Some approaching 1/8".  Also, they all had the cheap stamped steel arbor washers.  

I had always wanted a Baldor but just couldn't see paying over $500 for a grinder.  After more looking, I found that Grizzly sells the Baldor 602E for $207.  The grinder comes with a 36 grit wheel and a wire wheel.  The main reasons I bought the 602E were it's a Baldor, it has exhaust wheel guards to hook up a shop vac, and the price.

While waiting for the grinder to arrive, I ordered 60 grit and 100 grit Norton white aluminum oxide wheels.  I had great hopes for the Baldor and figured surely the wheels would run true.  Right out of the box the wheels wobbled.  I hoped the wobble was due to the stock wheel so I installed the new Norton wheels but still had the same problem.

The Baldor also has the same cheap stamped arbor washers.  I found that by loosening the wheel, rotating it, and re-tightening, I could remove much of the wobble but not all of it.  So I turned a small arbor and chucked up the arbor washers in the lathe and faced them off, hoping they would then run true.  This helped, but wobble still varied depending on washer position while tightening.  

I put a dial test indicator on the grinder shaft and it had about 0.0003" TIR.  Also, with the wheels removed, the grinder ran with absolutely NO vibration.  I then  considered turning new thicker arbor washers, but before that I found these wheel balancers from OneWay Mfg.

http://www.oneway.ca/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=42&Itemid=2





The balancers are a little expensive but I figured I would give it a try.  I bought them primarily because their arbor flanges are STOUT and have a 1/2" diameter hole with a 1" outer diameter so the cheap plastic inserts in the Norton wheels could be removed.  I figured the balancing ability would just be a plus.  From previous research the consensus seemed to be 6" wheels did not require balancing.

I also ordered the following 46 grit wheel from Craft Supplies figuring it would be a better coarse wheel than the Norton 60 grit white aluminum oxide.

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/174/5190/Norton-3X-6"-Grinding-Wheel




The arbor flanges with the balancing system are great, very beefy and true.  The jig supplied for balancing did not work that great.  The bearings seemed to have a little too much friction so I used my prop balancer, similar to the pic below.  It seemed to be more precise.




The bottom line.  The grinder now runs true with no noticeable vibration.  I may be wrong but I suspect almost any grinder will run vibration free with the wheels removed.  If I had to do it again I would probably buy a cheaper grinder and spend the money on good wheels, solid arbor bushings, and sturdy arbor flanges or turn the bushings and flanges from scratch.

Bob


----------



## DMS (Jul 23, 2014)

Are you talking 1/8" side to side? I would have returned the grinder, that is horrible. My cheapo grinder was not that bad. If you are talking about 1/8" radially, then that it not common. A heavy application of the dresser after installation will fix that.


----------



## frostheave (Jul 23, 2014)

DMS said:


> Are you talking 1/8" side to side? I would have returned the grinder, that is horrible. My cheapo grinder was not that bad. If you are talking about 1/8" radially, then that it not common. A heavy application of the dresser after installation will fix that.



Hi DMS,

Absolutely, I saw as much as 1/8" total side-to-side wobble while hand spinning the wheels on grinders in the stores.  The Baldor I bought was not that bad, but it still noticeably wobbled side-to-side.

In my case, I am confident the wobble was due to the cheap stamped arbor washers, which I saw on all grinders under $300.  The thick machined arbor flanges that came with the balancer completely removed the side-to-side wobble.  

Bob


----------



## chips&more (Jul 23, 2014)

The naked spindles on both ends of a bench grinder are not the best especially for obtaining truth in side to side or wobble. The small area of the reference shoulder/step is the blame. The washers parallelism is another problem and the paper discs on the stone is another and then the parallelism of the stone. All that can add up to the wobble you see when running your grinder. First off, do not remove and leave out the paper discs on the stone. The biggest problem is that small shoulder to reference from on the spindle. That’s asking a lot when say you are 4” out and 1/4" step, any error is magnified 16 times. The best approach is to make washers and resize bushings yourself paying close attention to the critical reference surfaces. Once everything is all made, you may still see wobble and relocating the stone in a different location of arc might help some. Then dress the stone OD with a diamond and translation fixture (another topic)...Good Luck.


----------



## DMS (Jul 23, 2014)

I wouldn't judge any product by a demo model; they have been dropped, kicked, manhandled and beaten to a pulp. My grinder was under $40. Now the guards are kinda cheap, it has no facilities for dust extraction, and the guards are just cheap sheet metal, but it runs true. Maybe I lucked out.


----------



## frostheave (Jul 23, 2014)

DMS said:


> I wouldn't judge any product by a demo model; they have been dropped, kicked, manhandled and beaten to a pulp. My grinder was under $40. Now the guards are kinda cheap, it has no facilities for dust extraction, and the guards are just cheap sheet metal, but it runs true. Maybe I lucked out.



That's a good point, which I did consider.  However, after spinning at least 8 different grinders at 4 different stores, there seemed to be an overabundance of side-to-side wobble in all of them.  

I am not surprised your grinder runs true.  That is a good thing!  As I stated earlier, I bet almost any grinder spindle runs pretty true with little TIR. The problem I have seen is in the way the wheels are fastened to the spindle.  Did yours run good right out of the box or did you have to do any tuning?  I tried to get my wheels lined up and true but became frustrated fairly quickly.  Patience is not one of my stronger qualities!

chips&more noted that the small shoulder on the spindle is a big problem.  This is definitely true but it is made far worse by the use of the thin arbor washers.  Even my Baldor has a VERY minimal shoulder and the thin washers.  By using a solid arbor spacer and beefier washers, the shoulder is used only as a stop to tighten up the wheel.  It no longer has any influence on wheel alignment, only the spindle shaft does, as it should.  Of course this doesn't correct for any problems with the wheel itself.

So again, if I had to do it all over, I would have bought a less expensive grinder and either purchased or made from scratch new spindle washers and spacers.

Bob


----------



## ELHEAD (Jul 23, 2014)

Just made my arbor washers from 2" cut outs from a welding shop. I'm a newb at this but had no trouble turning them . Greatly improved the wobble on my chi uh cheap grinder. Wobble went from at least 1/8  to negligible.


----------



## frostheave (Jul 24, 2014)

ELHEAD said:


> Just made my arbor washers from 2" cut outs from a welding shop. I'm a newb at this but had no trouble turning them . Greatly improved the wobble on my chi uh cheap grinder. Wobble went from at least 1/8  to negligible.



Good job ELHEAD.  Your solution was a lot cheaper than mine and you gained more experience.  Keep it up!

Bob


----------



## Charles Spencer (Jul 24, 2014)

Hi Dman.  I was just in Hadley the other day.  I live over in Spencer.

I have a very small shop so space is at a premium.  That means that I use one grinder 95% of the time.  Therefore one side has the sharpening wheel and the other is for coarser grinding.  I just use a Harbor Freight 8" grinder.  The grinder itself seems to run fairly true.  All I did to the coarse side was remove the (useless) rest.  On the sharpening side I replaced the supplied wheel with a Norton that I've had for many years.  It was formerly on an arbor on an old motor.  Anyway, I made a new rest for it and dressed the wheel to match the machine.  I find it works fairly well as long as I maintain a deft touch.

I think a big part of it is ensuring that you dip it and use a gauge to check frequently.

Charles


----------



## DMS (Jul 24, 2014)

Outathebox. The stock wheels were garbage, but they ran ok after dressing. Installed a white AO wheel and got a decent dresser after getting sick of them.


----------



## Don B (Jul 24, 2014)

frostheave said:


> The arbor flanges with the balancing system are great, very beefy and true.  The jig supplied for balancing did not work that great.  The bearings seemed to have a little too much friction so I used my prop balancer, similar to the pic below.  It seemed to be more precise.
> 
> Bob



Bob you may want to revisit your stand and have a closer look, it might just be a bad bearing but when I got my system there was a couple of issues with the stand that where easily sorted out, there was no spacer/washer between the bearing and the stand, the outer race was dragging against the stand, the other issue was the nylon spacer between the bearings was saw cut on the ends and the stringy results of that where lightly rubbing on the bearing dust shields, mine works so well I made an arbor (sliding fit on the bearings) to balance my single lip grinder stone.
Hint: if any one buys a balancing system such as this make a drawing of the mounting/balancing flanges just in case a second grinder comes along.


----------



## frostheave (Jul 24, 2014)

Don B said:


> Bob you may want to revisit your stand and have a closer look, it might just be a bad bearing but when I got my system there was a couple of issues with the stand that where easily sorted out, there was no spacer/washer between the bearing and the stand, the outer race was dragging against the stand, the other issue was the nylon spacer between the bearings was saw cut on the ends and the stringy results of that where lightly rubbing on the bearing dust shields, mine works so well I made an arbor (sliding fit on the bearings) to balance my single lip grinder stone.
> Hint: if any one buys a balancing system such as this make a drawing of the mounting/balancing flanges just in case a second grinder comes along.
> 
> View attachment 80829




Hi Don B

Thanks for the great info.  Nice job on the arbor extending the balancer capabilities.  Below is a picture of my balancer as delivered.




The bearings turn freely with little friction, however, when I put the balancer arbor on the bearings it seems the bearings are slightly out of alignment causing some binding.  I really like the way you made custom spacers and used a straight and hardened socket head cap screw.  I think if I duplicate your mods I'll be in business!  By the way, your "Hint:" is exactly what I was thinking when I ordered the balancer.  Thanks again.

Bob


----------



## Don B (Jul 24, 2014)

frostheave said:


> Hi Don B
> 
> Thanks for the great info.  Nice job on the arbor extending the balancer capabilities.  Below is a picture of my balancer as delivered.
> 
> ...



No problem Bob and your welcome, funny mine came with one nut and a plastic space cut on a very dull saw or possibly chewed to length by a small animal, your version must have been No.2 after being sent back to R&D, I did try the way yours was set up but I think the nuts must have twisting the bearings a little radially, both bearing where smooth until the flange was installed then there was drag, I just machined the spacer then parted it off to ensure both faces where parallel and it was good to go.
Yes that's what I figured as well, the system is expensive enough though money well spent but no need to repurchase it just for the sake of a couple of flanges.)


----------



## mzayd3 (Jul 24, 2014)

All of this is great information.  Thanks to all of you.  I have never actually dressed a wheel.  what are you guys using to do that?


----------



## DMS (Jul 24, 2014)

There was another thread recently discussing this, but the gist is there are 4 options, single point diamond, multi point diamond, star, and abrasive stick. None of them are very expensive. I am partial to either the multi-point diamond or the star dressers. I HATE the abrasive stick type, but others seem to like them just fine. Single point diamond dressers are hard to use free-hand, but they are the standard for surface grinders and tool post grinders where accuracy of the surface is important.


----------



## Charles Spencer (Jul 24, 2014)

mzayd3 said:


> All of this is great information.  Thanks to all of you.  I have never actually dressed a wheel.  what are you guys using to do that?



I use a one of these:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=891-1742&PMPXNO=3901919&PARTPG=INLMK3

It works for me.

You may have guessed by now that much of my equipment is way less elaborate than some of the guys here.

Charles


----------



## Don B (Jul 24, 2014)

For dressing I use a star type for the 6 inch that only gets used on lawn equipment sharpening, single point diamond on my 8 inch grinder I use for cutting tools, this is going to sound ridicules but I camp the shank of the single point diamond on my little mill so its sticking out, put a bag over the little mill so only the diamond is poking out, plunk the grinder in front of the mill (facing it) measure off the table for squareness, use the X and Y axis feed as needed, I keep meaning to make a little fixture that has XY axises for doing this but I need to do it so infrequently I just keep putting it off.

Edit: I use the abrasive stick ones for dremel stones, great for dressing and shaping them.


----------



## DMS (Jul 24, 2014)

Charles Spencer said:


> I use a one of these:
> 
> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=891-1742&PMPXNO=3901919&PARTPG=INLMK3
> 
> ...



That is the same one I have. Very solid, and like I said, not too expensive.


----------



## JHP (Jul 25, 2014)

mzayd3 said:


> All of this is great information.  Thanks to all of you.  I have never actually dressed a wheel.  what are you guys using to do that?


You're right, lots of good information here. Good luck in your first grinder acquisition. I would only like to add: before you mount that grinder and turn it on for the first time, study up on the art of "Ringing Grinding Wheels". You can find all the information you need somewhere on this site and elsewhere on the net. I can't over-emphasize the importance of understanding this subject: a perfectly good "LOOKING" wheel can become a lethal object. Fore-warned is fore-armed!:think1:


----------



## chips&more (Jul 25, 2014)

Don B said:


> For dressing I use a star type for the 6 inch that only gets used on lawn equipment sharpening, single point diamond on my 8 inch grinder I use for cutting tools, this is going to sound ridicules but I camp the shank of the single point diamond on my little mill so its sticking out, put a bag over the little mill so only the diamond is poking out, plunk the grinder in front of the mill (facing it) measure off the table for squareness, use the X and Y axis feed as needed, I keep meaning to make a little fixture that has XY axises for doing this but I need to do it so infrequently I just keep putting it off.




Good for you! Now that’s some Yankee Ingenuity for sure!


----------

