# Aluminum tool holders for my QCTH



## Charley Davidson (Nov 22, 2012)

Will it be Ok to use aluminum to make some additional tool holders for my QCTP? I need some more and some that are more appropriately sized for my tooling.  I need a parting tool holder, some more boring bar holders and a couple more for regular tooling.


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## jumps4 (Nov 22, 2012)

i have both in axa charley and i really have not noticed a difference. I really dont push my lathe hard but i have no chatter or flex problems i have ever noted. i just grab what ever tool i need and dont even pay attention to the holder. the holders i just made in steel is because i want to learn how to work with steel better without tearing up my tooling not because i prefer steel. my lathe is only a 11x26 bigger lathes i'm sure will show the difference.
steve


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## jumps4 (Nov 22, 2012)

added note: i'm sure it would not work in a production enviroment with constant changes the dovetail would probably wear pretty fast .
steve


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## Ray C (Nov 22, 2012)

I'd say no on the parting tool but for light duty holding of bits or boring bars and working on aluminum or plastic, it would probably work but will wear out quickly.   If this is for a piston or wedge type holder, the force of the mechanism alone could deform it if you strongarm it.   If you had to use aluminum, 70xx series would be the way to go.  Anything less than 60xx won't hold up very long at all.

That said, I've never tried this because they're made of steel for a reason.  Also, a place in Schaumburg, IL named CDDO sells AXA's for about 10 bucks.


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## Tony Wells (Nov 22, 2012)

Make them a little loose and send them out for hard anodize. I generally wouldn't recommend Al for this, but if you are going to try it, the anodize will take care of the wear on the dovetails.


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## Ray C (Nov 22, 2012)

Hi ...

This is probably fodder for a different thread but, I'll toss this out and quit.  I'm setup to "hard" anodize aluminum (people want it on their boat parts) and it's just a surface treatment.   I don't do it cheap because it's a pain!  It adds a little scratch resistance but is mainly for chemical resistance (like ocean salt).   When people use it for rigging with ropes riding over it, it wears out pretty quick but, it's great for something structural and doesn't have rubbing contact with other things.   If you put good aluminum in ocean water for a year, it will pit if it gets occasional air contact and in either case, it gets brittle.   Anodizing AL is just a molecular change (not a coating) that effects MUCH less than a half thou of the surface and does not change the part dimensions at all and it does nothing to the core under the "coating".  Finally, if memory serves (and I might be off here) only 60xx and 70xx series AL can be heat treated to give true, additional rigidity and it's usually done in special-case applications where they're counting grams on every part of the overall structure (i.e. aircraft).  It has a very low annealing temperature so, those hardened parts cannot be exposed to temps much above 300 degrees.  It is possible to anodize heat treated AL because the process is low temperature of about 180 degrees.  It has to be heat treated before the anodizing.  BTW:  I think 7000 series heat treated AL has a yield strength of like 70,000 lbs which is pretty incredible.  ... There are things like TiALN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and other aluminum oxide treatments but, that's a whole different can of worms and the coating process starts at temperatures that would boil aluminum.




Tony Wells said:


> Make them a little loose and send them out for hard anodize. I generally wouldn't recommend Al for this, but if you are going to try it, the anodize will take care of the wear on the dovetails.


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## Tony Wells (Nov 22, 2012)

My experience leads me to disagree with you, Ray. I am referring to type III anodize, and it is a surface treatment that changes the molecular arrangement to create aluminum oxide, which actually is created by using the base material, but does "build up" by swelling the original aluminum. It can effect dimensional changes of 0.005 per side easily, and is quite hard, as aluminum oxide is known to be. It is quite difficult to remove from places where you don't want it and didn't mask off for the bath. 

I would agree with your statement on Type I and most of Type II though. Not all that thick, though relatively hard are not generally used for anti-wear. not every anodizing shop is set up for Type III. It takes near freezing bath temperatures, and higher voltage and current to do.


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## jumps4 (Nov 22, 2012)

charley check this out
the cddo site tooling is really low cost as said
http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php
steve


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## Ray C (Nov 22, 2012)

Ah, thanks, I'll check into that but from the sound of things, it's probably not something I'll do in a 2.5 car shop area.  Yep, aluminum oxide -hard stuff -probably why they make grinding wheels and sandpaper out of it.   Still though, I think the OP is better off with some 1018... Most tool holding material is 1040 -amazing what a tiny extra bit of carbon does...



Tony Wells said:


> My experience leads me to disagree with you, Ray. I am referring to type III anodize, and it is a surface treatment that changes the molecular arrangement to create aluminum oxide, which actually is created by using the base material, but does "build up" by swelling the original aluminum. It can effect dimensional changes of 0.005 per side easily, and is quite hard, as aluminum oxide is known to be. It is quite difficult to remove from places where you don't want it and didn't mask off for the bath.
> 
> I would agree with your statement on Type I and most of Type II though. Not all that thick, though relatively hard are not generally used for anti-wear. not every anodizing shop is set up for Type III. It takes near freezing bath temperatures, and higher voltage and current to do.


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## Tony Wells (Nov 22, 2012)

It's probably not worth all the trouble to set up unless you are planning on doing a lot of it. A friend of mine in Houston ran an anodize shop for several years and really hated it when I sent something for hard anodize. Halliburton had a few parts requiring it, so he had to do it, but it took time to chill the tanks unless he was already set up for another job. It took a totally separate line from the Type I most everyone sees when they think anodizing, and yes, it is not much for wear.

And I agree with you on the material choice. That's why I said I wouldn't recommend it for toolholders. Virtually any steel would be better as far as strength goes. And mass for vibration absorption. But if he insists..... This forum is all about learning, so let it commence!


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## Ray C (Nov 22, 2012)

I dread with a passion doing AL anodizing. Slopping buckets of warm sulphuric is not my idea of fun -it stinks and it corrodes things that are near it.  -And oh what fun it is when someone asks for a funky color -and artist I am not.  -And a last thought about steel anodizing (lest I hijack the OP's thread), I use the caswell solvents and it really works well.  Again, not a lot of scratch resistance but, I've got stuff in my shop (which up until this year) was subject to extreme humidity changes and those treated parts are holding up fine.




Tony Wells said:


> It's probably not worth all the trouble to set up unless you are planning on doing a lot of it. A friend of mine in Houston ran an anodize shop for several years and really hated it when I sent something for hard anodize. Halliburton had a few parts requiring it, so he had to do it, but it took time to chill the tanks unless he was already set up for another job. It took a totally separate line from the Type I most everyone sees when they think anodizing, and yes, it is not much for wear.
> 
> And I agree with you on the material choice. That's why I said I wouldn't recommend it for toolholders. Virtually any steel would be better as far as strength goes. And mass for vibration absorption. But if he insists..... This forum is all about learning, so let it commence!


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## Tony Wells (Nov 23, 2012)

Yeah, we've derailed this thread far enough.....

Now returning you to your original programming.............................................................


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## Charley Davidson (Nov 23, 2012)

Here it is, cutting dovetails is not easy. Finally got it to fit but it wont tighten on one dovetail, luckily I have 3.    Still need to drill & tap to put the adj. screw in .


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## Tony Wells (Nov 23, 2012)

One thing I think that would make me leery of aluminum for that is the ductility. Once you have a tool clamped down with the set screws, or socket cap screws, can you release the holder from the post? The reason I asked is that I have an Aloris holder with a weak point, probably due to bad heat treat and if I wrench down pretty good on the screws, it distorts enough that it won't release. I have dye penetrant checked and magnafluxed it and found no cracks. I'd worry that the Al might do the same, although for different reasons.


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## jumps4 (Nov 23, 2012)

good job now you just need to give it a try
think of it as a harbor freight type tool and just dont push it to hard.
steve)


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## Charley Davidson (Nov 23, 2012)

Tony: Doesn't seem to be a problem but I haven't used the tool yet.

Steve: I'm sure it's about the same quality as Horrible Freight, I'm just gonna order some holders and get more as I need them. I would actually like to trade this one for one more appropriately sized for my lathe & tooling.


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## Tony Wells (Nov 23, 2012)

I was just curious, mainly. Whether or not that happens will depend on how hard you tighten the screws. On my problem holder, if I use only light torque on the screws, it's fine, but if I really wrench on it, it bends or something and won't come off the post. And I have tried it on at least 3 separate tool posts with the same results. I probably should toss it.


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## jumps4 (Nov 23, 2012)

it was still good practice for cutting a dovetail
they are a bogger 
so making it if it works out or not isnt a loss
steve


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## PurpLev (Nov 25, 2012)

I made one out of Al as a tangential toolholder as those commercially available are just ridiculously priced, but for regular toolholder it's less pain to just fork out the $10 for a commercial steel one as mentioned above. that said, these toolholders are a great shop project to work on, milling parts, cutting dovetails, drilling and tapping. good skills builder.


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## Mid Day Machining (Nov 25, 2012)

You'll probably be fine to make your tool QCTH out of aluminum, but I would use 7075. 1018 steel would be WAY better.

Another consideration, how much is the dovetail cutter going to cost you, and is it the correct angle to fit the tool post.

If you buy a 45* dovetail cutter, and your tool post is 40 or 50*, then you'll have to have your cutter reground to match which could make the whole project quite a bit more expensive. 

Just being a devils advocate here. I love to make my own tooling too.

I have a product that has a 4.5* angle cut on both sides of a part and is perfect for a 4th axis on my Tormach PCNC 1100, but I'm too cheap to spend the $2,400.00 so I made a fixture that I can index using locating pins. It cost me about $50.00 and it doesn't weigh 85 pounds.


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## David Kirtley (Dec 17, 2012)

I have made quite a few from 6061 for my QCTP and the ones that came with it were AL as well. It is a bit smaller than an AXA though. Mine is a little A2Z CNC for my 7x14. I did make one of the flip up threading tool holders from mystery meat steel (probably 1018 but no real idea) and it is noticeably stiffer.  I do plan on making another QCTP from steel but have been waffling on what type. I am not really happy with the A2Z because of interference with the handle but not enough to get busy making something else.


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