# Help choose Ind 4-jaw chuck for 1440GT, please



## oregontripper (Jul 17, 2021)

D1-5 is a must. Would like to maintain 2" bore, besides PMs 8" is not available (and it's under 2").

Planned for rifle barrel and action work. 
Things I wonder about. 

Two piece jaws or solid?

Any reason to consider 10" over 8"?

Semi-steel?

Would go over $1000, or not! WTH, it's only money.

Store brand $400?  Gator $600? 

Bison $900? Not Chinese, a definite preference.


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## oregontripper (Jul 17, 2021)

Seems to be all I can type above while actually viewing..  


Like to say thanks in advance for any help.


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## Janderso (Jul 17, 2021)

10” D1-5 chucks are heavy!
If it were me, I’d go with the 8”
I’m sure someone will say the ten is better. I’m getting old
I have a 10” Bison that has the T slots. Single jaws
Very nice chuck


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## mksj (Jul 17, 2021)

A few of us have gone with an 8" combination chuck (Bison) which is a bit quicker to get parts in/out and dial in. They are heavy (80lbs with back plate).  Recent experiences by other with the Gator chucks have been disappointing in the fit/finish for the price, they are direct copies of the Bison but made in China. Helped another 1440GT owner setup his lathe and he was able to get a Bison 10" 4J with 2 piece jaws (eBay was 1/2 off, list wass 2K) and he was very happy with it. Weight is an issue, a direct mount D1-5 10" 4J are around 65 lbs. I like the Bison/TMX (2 separate companies in Poland, both make nice chucks), two piece jaws allow the use of soft jaws.  This eBay listing may be worth looking at, it may be a Bison copy, but Rapidhold chucks when I checked were from Mainland China. Still looks well made , the chuck is  semi-steel so limited to 1500 RPM Max. A 10" has a larger center hole, one reason a few people go with the larger chuck. Chuck prices have gone up quite a bit over the last year, also many chucks are outsourced to China mainland, and/or they have spin offs that are lower quality (Like PBA now sells Atlas chucks which is a low cost line).








						New Rapidhold 10" 4-Jaw Independent Semi-Steel Lathe Chuck D1-5 Mount 2pc jaws  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for New Rapidhold 10" 4-Jaw Independent Semi-Steel Lathe Chuck D1-5 Mount 2pc jaws at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## oregontripper (Jul 17, 2021)

Liking this. Gulp.  A plus is less depth than a semi-steel.  Is this the one?






						Bison 8" 4-Jaw Incependent Forged Steel Chucks - D1-5 Mount
					

Bison quality precision 4-jaw forged steel  independent chucks, D type spindle mounts.



					bisonchucksonline.com


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## JR49 (Jul 17, 2021)

Why are semi steel chucks limited to 1500 RPM?


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## Aukai (Jul 17, 2021)

Vibration, and disintegration?


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## mksj (Jul 17, 2021)

Semi steel is basically cast iron, the centrifugal force exerts significant force and they can spin apart more easily then a forged steel. That being said, I wouldn't want to be spinning a 10" chuck above 1500 RPM. An 8" semi steel typically can be run to 2000 RPM, a forged steel to 2500 RPM.  You pay a significant premium for forged steel and you need to factor in if you need the extra top end for a manual lathe.  There are also significant other issues with the quality of the castings, and the balance of the chuck.  On a lighter lathe they can produce some significant vibrations. 
Bison 8" 4J in forged steel with 2 piece  through hole 1.97" jaws 7-857-0835F 








						Bison 8" 4 Jaw Independent Manual Chuck D1-5 Mount 7-857-0835F
					

Bison 8" 4 Jaw Independent Manual Chuck D1-5 Mount 7-857-0835F




					www.smalltools.com
				



Bison 10" 4J in forged steel with 2 piece jaws through hole 2.55" 7-857-1035F








						Bison 10" 4 Jaw Independent Manual Chuck D1-5 Mount 7-857-1035F
					

Bison 10" 4 Jaw Independent Manual Chuck D1-5 Mount 7-857-1035F




					www.smalltools.com
				




A couple of years ago one company was liquidation stock of their Bison 8" combination chucks, they were the forged steel version and they were like $650 a piece and they had 5 in stock. Once word got out they all sold in about a day. They list for 3X more. You can save some change and use a Gator back plate with these.
Bison 8" 4 Jaw Combination Semi Steel Manual Chuck Plain Back through hole is 2.17" 7-848-0800








						Bison 8" 4 Jaw Combination Manual Chuck Plain Back 7-848-0800
					

Bison 8" 4 Jaw Combination Manual Chuck Plain Back 7-848-0800




					www.smalltools.com


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## wrmiller (Jul 17, 2021)

mksj said:


> That being said, I wouldn't want to be spinning a 10" chuck above 1500 RPM.


You should have seen me back up the first time I spun my 8" PB chuck at 1800 rpm! 

Pretty impressive. Smooth too. I'm not sure I would have done that with a 10" though.


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## oregontripper (Jul 17, 2021)

Thanks guys. Much appreciated!


That 8" Bison 7-857-0835F looks perfect... Like the rest of this affair, I'm in deep... LOL


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## mksj (Jul 17, 2021)

When you look at how the forged steel chucks are made, they do not cast the voids in the back it is all machined. The Bison semi-steel have very clean castings and webing vs. the Chinese mainland ones I have seen. This is the TMX 8" 4J which is a copy of the Bision. Note that the through hole is 1.97" on the 8" independent  chucks. The  forged 10" Bison was gorgeous.  I guess it depends on your needs, how much you use the chuck and how much you want to spend. Also these 4J independent chucks are more limited holding smaller stock, there are limitations to how far the jaws can come together and the jaws tips are wide. The 8" combination chuck can hold stock down to 0.2".


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## Rifleman1384 (Jul 18, 2021)

Hello, I was in the same boat and am the one Mark is speaking of. I may never need it and Mark teased me about the need for a chuck with a 2 inch thru hole being needed to turn an elephant barrel, lol. While waiting on the machine I looked everywhere and even posted here kinda like a poll on brands. I called several vendors and all quoted me prices for a forged body Bison 10" 4 jaw stating only one at the warehouse. I found mine on EBAY, I was nervous and had a few folks here look at the ad not wanting to buy a copy or junk. The chuck was shipped to me from Canada which was another concern for me (how many pieces would it be in when or if it arrived). I ordered it, with the taxes and shipping it was less than half any of the quotes I received from anyone state side. The chuck was brand new in the box as advertised, it was packed VERY well. The Bison box was put inside a milk crate lined with plywood and foam board insulation and that was packed inside a cardboard box lined with foam board insulation. No damage at all. The chuck is a hand full at 60-65 pounds but I can handle it no problem, it is butter smooth and I am very happy with it. The link Mark posted above is from the seller I purchased from, he also has a Swiss made 10" 4 jaw the he has listed as a display model that might be good but I do not know that brand. Good Luck and reach out if I can be of any help. 

Steve


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## Beckerkumm (Jul 18, 2021)

Kalamazoo makes the old Buck chuck in Michigan.  Not any cheaper but I've heard they are very good quality.  Dave


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 18, 2021)

This one will need a backing plate. Claims to be made in Japan.









						8" LATHE CHUCK 4 jaw independent, Key, bolts, flat back NEW! MADE IN Japan!  | eBay
					

Still has the original grease on it. Jaws are reversible.



					www.ebay.com


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## oregontripper (Jul 19, 2021)

Rifleman1384, I've seen the Swedish made 10" SCA you mention. Heck, months ago I made an offer on it! I will consider the seller when seeking bids. Regarding bore size, I'd go 3" if I could! Gots some wild ideas! LOL

I am also seeking info on other brands that have been mentioned. 

Thanks guys.


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## mksj (Jul 19, 2021)

You are limited by the spacing of the D1-5 pins, so the 10" chuck will go to 2.56" and that is about the maximum size through hole that is possible. Otherwise consider the 1440TL with a D1-6 mount and the larger spindle bore.


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## matthewsx (Jul 19, 2021)

Rifleman1384 said:


> Hello, I was in the same boat and am the one Mark is speaking of. I may never need it and Mark teased me about the need for a chuck with a 2 inch thru hole being needed to turn an elephant barrel, lol. While waiting on the machine I looked everywhere and even posted here kinda like a poll on brands. I called several vendors and all quoted me prices for a forged body Bison 10" 4 jaw stating only one at the warehouse. I found mine on EBAY, I was nervous and had a few folks here look at the ad not wanting to buy a copy or junk. The chuck was shipped to me from Canada which was another concern for me (how many pieces would it be in when or if it arrived). I ordered it, with the taxes and shipping it was less than half any of the quotes I received from anyone state side. The chuck was brand new in the box as advertised, it was packed VERY well. The Bison box was put inside a milk crate lined with plywood and foam board insulation and that was packed inside a cardboard box lined with foam board insulation. No damage at all. The chuck is a hand full at 60-65 pounds but I can handle it no problem, it is butter smooth and I am very happy with it. The link Mark posted above is from the seller I purchased from, he also has a Swiss made 10" 4 jaw the he has listed as a display model that might be good but I do not know that brand. Good Luck and reach out if I can be of any help.
> 
> Steve



I've also ordered from JRWoodca on eBay and been very happy with their prices, service and packaging.

John


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## oregontripper (Jul 19, 2021)

mksj said:


> You are limited by the spacing of the D1-5 pins, so the 10" chuck will go to 2.56" and that is about the maximum size through hole that is possible. Otherwise consider the 1440TL with a D1-6 mount and the larger spindle bore.


Thanks. I'm beyond maxed out on this machine. LOL 2" will do wonderfully. I  began this purchase in December actually. Hit a snag and was concerned if it came in - on time (LOL), in March I might not be able to do it. So I traded my place in line for an early May time frame, which is NOW. (Smiley) Paid for and in the warehouse. Yahoo. 3-phase, PEP, Mag DRO.... Getting pretty excited! 

About "combination" chucks. Do they scoll, then also have an independent fine adjustment feature? Been my assumption, but,  figured I'd ask.


Really liking the TMX and Bison chucks, and also curious about Kalamazoo.  8"

Been greatly informative, and dare I say entertaining, reading many threads on this forum!


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## mksj (Jul 20, 2021)

Combination chuck is a scroll chuck with individually adjustable jaws that ride on the lower scroll portions (see picture below). The scroll section will typically repeat to 0.001-0.002", there are slight variations when reinserting stock  because the pressure you use on the jaws may vary. The nice feature is getting stock in/out and dialing the TIR to zip quickly or if you do anything off center. A Set-Tru scroll chuck is not really made to dial in stock, it is more to dial in the jaws for minimum TIR. My understanding with rifle work is the center bore can often be slightly off center from the outer barrel, and alignment is relative to the bore requireing tweaking the jaws.

The downside of combination chucks (other than cost) is they take longer to clean getting all the swarf out, and they are heavy (my 8" is around 80-85 lbs with the back plate). My heavier chucks I clamp down on a road when I remove them and the rod extends past both ends of the chuck which makes them easier to carry. Some people make a sled for the ways for getting the chuck on/off the spindle.

I would be very careful on some of the other chucks, such as Buck, Kalamazoo, and even the newer PBA atlas line as many of the lower end products are just rebranded Chinese mainland chucks. Not saying they are bad, but I saw one side by side discussion and the remark was that two chucks were identical, onle difference was the name on the chuck and it was twice the price. I went through my share of chucks, and spent more in the long run than if I had just bought well made chucks in the first place. It is not only the TIR but the skew in holding the stock, the linearity of the scroll/jaws,  the rigidity as well as the movement, grind of the jaws, etc. There are subtle differences, on my PBA scroll the jaws are ground with a very small taper along the length so that when they clamp stock the jaws are parallel along the length with even pressure.

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but if I were going to use just two chucks it would be a combination and a collet. Others such as gunsmiths often leave their 4J independent on the lathe and may never use another chuck.


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## erikmannie (Jul 20, 2021)

I researched this extensively for a D1-6 12”, & I ended up buying a TMX. Bison-Bial would have been my second choice.

I chose forged steel & 2-piece jaws. The chuck was very expensive, but I not be happier. I added an extra chuck key when I made the order.

You can call TMX in MA & ask the rep questions on the phone. They are very approachable.

Small Tools is an excellent source for chucks! You will save a lot of money. I was happy that the chuck was drop shipped directly from TMX in MA. After paying what I did, I certainly didn’t need any funny business.


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## ddickey (Jul 20, 2021)

Rohm makes a 3J combo also. Do they make direct mount combo chucks? if you decide to buy an independent 4J get a direct mount.


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## oregontripper (Aug 5, 2021)

Took some digging, however, I have been informed that I can be hooked up with a German made Rohm D1-5 8" independent 4-Jaw chuck for, gulp, four thousand dollars. I bet it's a dandy.

I'm 98% settled on a Bison forged steel chuck. Still debating one- vs two-piece jaws.

Hmmmm, early May yet?
Appreciate everyone's input.


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## MrWhoopee (Aug 5, 2021)

oregontripper said:


> Took some digging, however, I have been informed that I can be hooked up with a German made Rohm D1-5 8" independent 4-Jaw chuck for, gulp, four thousand dollars. I bet it's a dandy.
> 
> I'm 98% settled on a Bison forged steel chuck. Still debating one- vs two-piece jaws.
> 
> ...


No question, two-piece jaws.


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## oregontripper (Aug 5, 2021)

I suppose when the two parts of a two piece jaw are properly secured together they function exactly as a one-piece? Any, even the slightest reduction in accuracy? 


The machine is planned for applications suitable for the one-piece, whereas there are infinite unknowns I may venture into in the future where a two piece might be useful.


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## oregontripper (Aug 5, 2021)

Exciting news, my machine is enroute!


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## MrWhoopee (Aug 5, 2021)

oregontripper said:


> I suppose when the two parts of a two piece jaw are properly secured together they function exactly as a one-piece? Any, even the slightest reduction in accuracy?
> 
> 
> The machine is planned for applications suitable for the one-piece, whereas there are infinite unknowns I may venture into in the future where a two piece might be useful.


There is no reduction in accuracy and a significant increase in versatility. Custom soft-jaws are not an option with one-piece jaws. I'm surprised they even offer them.


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## oregontripper (Aug 6, 2021)

Inventory woes... Broadening my scope a bit.

Not sure about what the differences are between a "set-true" and "combination" type chuck? I see Bison offers both. 

Information appreciated.


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## mksj (Aug 6, 2021)

All completely different animals. A combination chuck is a scroll chuck (comes in both 3J and 4J) and each jaw rides on a separate screw which allows adjustment same as an independent chuck. So a wide range of adjustment, the scroll repeats to around 0.002" and allows a wide adjustment range for out of round stock or irregular pieces. A Set-Tru style is a scroll chuck with a deeper back plate, there are typically 4 set screw on the chuck that are used to true up the chuck center. The range of adjustment is around 0.005" from center. It requires loosening the chuck slightly from the back plate, making the adjustment and then tightening, it is not really used to center stock but to center the jaws when clamping a precision pin. Scroll chucks will also have some degree of non-linearity in the scroll, so some variation depending on the diameter of the stock you are holding. Weight wise, a combination chuck is the heaviest an 8" with back plate is around 85 lbs, a set-tru scroll around 65 lbs with back plate and a 4J direct mount independent around 50 lbs (depends on if it is forged steel or semi-steel).

If there is an inventory issue with Bison then I would check the forged steel 4J independent in a TMX, they are very close in quality and design.


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## oregontripper (Aug 6, 2021)

mksj said:


> All completely different animals. A combination chuck is a scroll chuck (comes in both 3J and 4J) and each jaw rides on a separate screw which allows adjustment same as an independent chuck. So a wide range of adjustment, the scroll repeats to around 0.002" and allows a wide adjustment range for out of round stock or irregular pieces. A Set-Tru style is a scroll chuck with a deeper back plate, there are typically 4 set screw on the chuck that are used to true up the chuck center. The range of adjustment is around 0.005" from center. It requires loosening the chuck slightly from the back plate, making the adjustment and then tightening, it is not really used to center stock but to center the jaws when clamping a precision pin. Scroll chucks will also have some degree of non-linearity in the scroll, so some variation depending on the diameter of the stock you are holding. Weight wise, a combination chuck is the heaviest an 8" with back plate is around 85 lbs, a set-tru scroll around 65 lbs with back plate and a 4J direct mount independent around 50 lbs (depends on if it is forged steel or semi-steel).
> 
> If there is an inventory issue with Bison then I would check the forged steel 4J independent in a TMX, they are very close in quality and design.


Thanks for that explanation. Great info, I sure don't want a set-true.  Checking around and yes TMX is at the top of my list, they sure look good. I'm not in the biggest hurry, so, I will backorder if needed - to get exactly what's desired.


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## oregontripper (Aug 11, 2021)

The lathe in my "garage-shop". I am 2200 miles away, only, and eager to unwrap it!

Have learned a couple things.

Pratt Burnerd America, Kalimazoo MI, has a "better than cast iron" ductile line of chucks, including independent 4-jaw type of interest. The ductile chucks are made in Czech Republic.  Some require a mounting adapter plate, which is the case for the 8" to go D1-5. The adapter is made/machined in Kalamazoo. Their regular cast iron, semi-steel chucks are Chinese. The ductile 8" with D1-5 adapter is rated at 2300 RPM, whereas, the ductile 10" with d1-5 built in is rated at 1700 RPM. (Balanced)

Doesn't appear to be a single 8" 4-jaw forged D1-5 TMX or Bison anywhere. 4-5+ months back order. MSC has offered the best back order price, by a significant margin. Still looking at some options. Some available plain back chucks sure don't look compatible with some of the D1-5 back plates. Chuck mounting holes look to overlap the back plate's D1-5 studs. I don't want excessive depth...


Much thanks to all here. I have come back and referenced comments, that now, all make sense to this bonehead.


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## mksj (Aug 12, 2021)

Small tools and Ajax seem to have listings in a plain back and can set you up with a back plate, an extra 1" won't amount to much. QMT has a direct mount D1-5 that is very good and reasonable if it is in stock.








						Toolmex 8" Forged Body 4 Jaw Independent Plain Back Lathe Chuck Made In Poland  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Toolmex 8" Forged Body 4 Jaw Independent Plain Back Lathe Chuck Made In Poland at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## oregontripper (Aug 12, 2021)

mksj said:


> Small tools and Ajax seem to have listings in a plain back and can set you up with a back plate, an extra 1" won't amount to much. QMT has a direct mount D1-5 that is very good and reasonable if it is in stock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See if this makes sense... A few points. The 8" QMT is not available. Even though it has a reduced bore, I would happily buy one for $400...  Chuck depth is very much a concern for work I intend to do through the spindle. In fact it's important enough I almost went 1340GT. However, the 1440GT won out for other reasons.

Looking at that TMX plain back chuck, the four mounting holes are 10mm and spaced at 3.252", wheras (on a backplate), the six D1-5 3/4" studs are spaced at 4.125" with additional potential interference from the set screws.  So, to me, it appears one would need an extra thick backplate to work, to overcome this... 

I have searched for pictures that show an actual TMX or Bison 8" (ind 4-jaw, forged) with D1-5, however, the pictures located  show a 3-stud D1-4 mount! Looking at the TMX diagram, there's additional material on the back of the 8" to allow for the D1-5 studs. Or so it seems to me. I will try to upload pics later. 
Since overall chuck depth is a concern,  seems like a 2-piece jaw would be my best option to allow for closest tool access on shortest stock? I  could use a two-piece jaw with the top jaw removed? LOL

I'm royally glad I am not in a hurry.


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## mksj (Aug 12, 2021)

If you want the shortest width, than you can buy back plate mount spiders or modify a back plate with opposing spider bolts. This is often done by gunsmiths. A back plate fits the specific chuck and is drilled for mounting the specific chuck. Pictures do not represent the actual products, so calling Ajax or SmallTools may be better if you have not already done so. I am not sure about using 2 piece jaws w/o the upper jaw, but one could use soft jaws and keep them short or make some.








						Aluminum Spider Plate - 5" Diameter at Grizzly.com
					

Made specially for gunsmithing operations, particularly when chambering barrels, these spider plates are used so that shorter barrels can be chambered through the headstock of the lathe.  The brass tipped screws prevent damage to the barrels and allow for fine adjustments very similar to a 4-jaw...




					www.grizzly.com


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## oregontripper (Aug 12, 2021)

I totally forgot about the Grizzly spider and been considering making one. It's in stock now, easy decision, one on the way, thanks!

I have had some interesting offers from retailers in general.


The pic below properly shows the back of the D1-5 TMX 8" with extra thickness I refer to. It's listed as 4.311" with "adapter". Edit, since it shows T-slots it may actually be a picture of the 10"! Sheesh.









						TMX 4-Jaw Type D Direct Mount Independent Lathe Chuck, 8" D1-5, 1.97" Hole - 3-857-0835P
					

Offering a huge selection of industrial tool sales online. Find over 100,000 metalworking products, precision measuring tools, power tools & accessories.




					www.penntoolco.com
				




Whereas the plain back refrenced above measures 2.85".

So D1-5 adds 1.46" to the depth.  Not shocking or new stuff, just the specifics. Ive seen some plain back chucks with mounting holes that would fall outside of the D1-5 pattern and could simply  (possibly) mount to a generic flat backplate. Such as this Japanese made unit.


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## ddickey (Aug 12, 2021)

If you buy the TMX this code will save you ten bucks *TEN4ME*


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