# Anyone have a PM-835S?



## Pcmaker (Aug 18, 2020)

What are the pros and cons of this machine? I don't see any videos of it on Youtube and I haven't seen it mentioned much here. I have a PM-25MV now, and looking to upgrade in the future. I was looking at the 949, but price, and the size as well as the logistics of moving it to my home turns me off. At least with the PM-835S, liftgate service is available. They can move it into my garage. 

From what I udnerstand, it's a 3/4" Bridgeport clone? How much less ridgid is it compared to the full size ones?


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## wrmiller (Aug 18, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> What are the pros and cons of this machine? I don't see any videos of it on Youtube and I haven't seen it mentioned much here. I have a PM-25MV now, and looking to upgrade in the future. I was looking at the 949, but price, and the size as well as the logistics of moving it to my home turns me off. At least with the PM-835S, liftgate service is available. They can move it into my garage.
> 
> From what I udnerstand, it's a 3/4" Bridgeport clone? How much less ridgid is it compared to the full size ones?



My 935TS is larger than the 835, and it is referred to as a 'baby bridgeport'. At ~1500 lbs. my 935 is at least 1000 lbs. lighter than a Bridgeport. And that 835S is even smaller. My 935TS was delivered on a liftgate, and PM said that this was the largest mill that could be delivered with liftgate service.

I had a PM25 also, and IMO there is no comparison between that and my 935. It's not a large mill, nor can it be abused like one, but it is an order of magnatude or more better than my old PM25 and does what I need it to do. YMMV of course.


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## Stonebriar (Aug 19, 2020)

I have a PM935.  If you are looking to buy once get the 949. There is a huge difference.


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## kb58 (Aug 19, 2020)

There is a member here who will soon tell you how bad a 935 is, yet just about everyone else seems happy with theirs, including me. Different strokes for different folks. I realize that your thread isn't specifically about the 935, but since you're getting nearer to its price and weight class, it's somewhat related.


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## davidcarmichael (Aug 19, 2020)

kb58 said:


> There is a member here who will soon tell you how bad a 935 is, yet just about everyone else seems happy with theirs, including me. Different strokes for different folks. I realize that your thread isn't specifically about the 935, but since what you're getting nearer to its price and weight class, it's somewhat related.


I've had a  PM-835S since 2017. I am delighted with it. It has a Taiwanese top end and a Chinese bottom end. I can't say I have seen any serious problems with either. The top end is really a 935 top end mated to the lower cost bottom end.

All of the features of the 935 top end are available and though I bought the single-phase step pulley version I replaced the motor with a 3-phase from PM and a VFD. The result is superb and I believe it is cheaper, more reliable and flexible than a variable speed version. I really like the electronic fast stop and I have rigged up an auto reverse so that you don't have to reverse the motor when you use back gear.

It came with the full DRO and I bought 3-axis of power feed from PM and fitted them myself. I fitted a Kurt 6" vise and have yet to find anything I cannot do with it that I could do on a Bridgeport.

What specific questions do you have about the PM-835S?


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## V35B (Aug 19, 2020)

I got an 835S two months ago, and I am happy with it. I have used it for drilling, running the boring head, milling key ways in shafts, squaring up stock and other milling tasks. It has been rigid enough for everything I have thrown at it which is mostly repairing parts for antique tractors and similar tasks. I'm NOT an experienced machinist, but have been in the heavy equipment repair and welding industry since the early 90's, so I really cant compare it to other machines personally. I have had tons of things machined for me over the years and seen a lot of it done, but doing it yourself is a whole other story.


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## Pcmaker (Aug 20, 2020)

I mainly wanted to know what I'll be sacrificing if I opted for the 835s and not the 949. Especially features and especially ridgidity when working with harder steel and using larger endmills


From what I understand the only difference with the 835 and 945 is that the 835 has a chinese made lower body? That doesn't seem to be such a big deal.


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## davidcarmichael (Aug 20, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I mainly wanted to know what I'll be sacrificing if I opted for the 835s and not the 949. Especially features and especially ridgidity when working with harder steel and using larger endmills
> 
> 
> From what I understand the only difference with the 835 and 945 is that the 835 has a chinese made lower body? That doesn't seem to be such a big deal.


Not having owned anything but the 835S I don't know, but I would guess the quality of fit and finish and of the cast iron may be better. I doubt if a home user would notice. I certainly haven't experienced any problems with fit, finish and accuracy of the knee, nor any problem with rigidity. 

Might be a good idea to talk with PM and find out what they claim is superior.


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## rogerl (Aug 20, 2020)

The Taiwan made lower body does have some advantages. With the PM935 you get Meehanite castings and Turcite B way material. The Turcite ways should outlast the cast iron ways. You get a one shot oiler with the 935 and a 5 year warranty. Again, depending on what you are going to do with the machine these items might not be worth the extra money. For me they were the reason I bought the PM 935.

Just my 2 cents
Roger L


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## wrmiller (Aug 20, 2020)

rogerl said:


> The Taiwan made lower body does have some advantages. With the PM935 you get Meehanite castings and Turcite B way material. The Turcite ways should outlast the cast iron ways. You get a one shot oiler with the 935 and a 5 year warranty. Again, depending on what you are going to do with the machine these items might not be worth the extra money. For me they were the reason I bought the PM 935.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> Roger L



To me, the things you mention make all the difference. But for those who don't understand/don't care, buy the chinese mill and enjoy it.


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## davidcarmichael (Aug 20, 2020)

rogerl said:


> The Taiwan made lower body does have some advantages. With the PM935 you get Meehanite castings and Turcite B way material. The Turcite ways should outlast the cast iron ways. You get a one shot oiler with the 935 and a 5 year warranty. Again, depending on what you are going to do with the machine these items might not be worth the extra money. For me they were the reason I bought the PM 935.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> Roger L


FYI the 835S also has a one-shot oiler.


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## kb58 (Aug 20, 2020)

If you're going to be cutting hardened material, your feed and speed directly dictates how big a machine you need to avoid chatter and deflection.


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## mksj (Aug 20, 2020)

If you are talking about an 835 vs. 949, you are giving up a significant amount of travel and mass. The 835 has a Y travel of 10" vs. 13" on the 949, and around 1100 lbs in weight. Overall the Taiwanese machines (compared to their lower priced Chinese counterparts) are better made and you are less likely to have fitment and QC issues. As far as how hard you can push these machines, usually more limited by the operated as opposed to the machine, and also your selection of tooling. The 835 is an entry level knee (cost wise), the 935 fits well for people that have limited space, do not need a larger table/travel and/or are limited as to ability to offload the mill of a larger size. Having used a number of different size machines, weight does matter in both rigidity and vibration resistance. The 949 is only $400 more than the 935, so if you can swing the cost, I would buy once/cry once. Otherwise you will probably start thinking about upgrading shortly after you get a smaller mill. I also was  poking around on Craigslist the other day looking at used full size mills, used Bridgeport's were running in the 3500-5500 range and pretty heavily used. When you consider the the PM-949 starts at around 5800 with a 5 year warranty and service support, I would go new before I purchased used.


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## wrmiller (Aug 20, 2020)

kb58 said:


> If you're going to be cutting hardened material, your feed and speed directly dictates how big a machine you need to avoid chatter and deflection.



I cut on hardened parts all the time, and hit my target dimensions. Mostly. 

I don't take very large cuts, as I really don't need to, and try to use nice sharp cutters to reduce stresses on the machine. If I do have to remove larger amounts of material, roughing end mills are my friends.


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## Pcmaker (Aug 20, 2020)

The main issue with the 949 for me is, how do I get it home. They don't liftgate delivery on anything heavier than the 935


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## kb58 (Aug 20, 2020)

Equipment movers are the easy answer, at a cost of course. Also, beyond some weight (and I don't know what that is), the workshop concrete slab needs to be thicker than the typical 4".


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## wrmiller (Aug 20, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> The main issue with the 949 for me is, how do I get it home. They don't liftgate delivery on anything heavier than the 935



The expenses and knowing that I was going to have to move out of state in a few years is what kept me from buying a larger mill.


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## davidcarmichael (Aug 21, 2020)

wrmiller said:


> The expenses and knowing that I was going to have to move out of state in a few years is what kept me from buying a larger mill.



Since all 945 models are OOS or backordered it may not be for some time anyway.

The extra 1000lbs is a huge increase for the extra height and other dimensions. Are you sure, if you really want the extra size and quality (whatever that may buy you if you are not an industrial user), that this is worth it over the 935? A 3-phase 935 with a step pulley and a VFD would be a great tool and unless you really need the extra size then maybe you should consider ALL of the extra expenses involved. I had the money for a 935 or 945 when I bought my 835S, but being in-stock, ready for delivery with all accessories, and certainly big enough for any job I could imagine made the extra $500 for the 3-phase motor and $200 for the VFD worth it to me.

If cost and time are really no object, I would go for a 1045 TS with a vfd. They will ship it anywhere for $599 and all you need is to hire a fork lift to unload it. Or maybe that and a reinforced concrete pad to set it on. BTW these are REALLY tall machines. I hope you are. 
You may need to dismantle the head to get it in your workshop. I almost did with a 835S.


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## Pcmaker (Aug 21, 2020)

Yeah I hear the 949 is pretty tall. Pain in the butt every time you gotta access the drawbar. Might push me towards the 935 or 835


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## Skowinski (Aug 21, 2020)

Good luck with your decision.  I was seriously looking at both the 835 and 935, but in the end decided they would both just take up too much space in my already crowded shop.  I'm sure either is a really nice machine.


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## davidcarmichael (Aug 21, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Yeah I hear the 949 is pretty tall. Pain in the butt every time you gotta access the drawbar. Might push me towards the 935 or 835


I am 5' 9". Even with my 835S I had to climb on a ladder to use the drawbar. 

I decided not to put up with it so built a pneumatic power drawbar using an impact gun, deep socket, linear bearings and pneumatic cylinders so that wherever the quill was in its 5" travel I could still slacken and tighten the drawbar. The issue with over-the-counter drawbars is that unlike some other knee mills the drawbar goes up and down with the quill. I assume this is also true on the 935 as it is the same head. I didn't want to always retract the quill in order to use the power drawbar. I also use the Tormach tooling system which reduces the amount of slackening and tightening. There is another post on this site where I posted pictures of the power drawbar.

I have considered that there may be some splined two piece drawbars available that would eliminate the need for such a long travel but I have yet to find one.


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## Stonebriar (Aug 21, 2020)

Just rent a small fork lift for the day it is delivered.  That is what I did.


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## Pcmaker (Aug 21, 2020)

Stonebriar said:


> Just rent a small fork lift for the day it is delivered.  That is what I did.



They won't deliver it at all. You gotta go pick it up yourself somewhere in your city.


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## TX COWDOC (Oct 18, 2020)

How's are the finish details of the Chinese body on the 835S? I'm considering one and the images on the website are not detailed enough to provide any indication.  Thank you.


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## davidcarmichael (Oct 19, 2020)

TX COWDOC said:


> How's are the finish details of the Chinese body on the 835S? I'm considering one and the images on the website are not detailed enough to provide any indication.  Thank you.


Looks and feels pretty good to me but you must be giving up something buying Chinese. Is that something you care about? I don't know.
All I know is that I have never seen any bench mill that comes close to a knee mill in mass and rigidity. The excellent adjustability for tram in all directions is also better than any bench mill I have seen, but I have only seen a few.


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## TX COWDOC (Oct 19, 2020)

Appreciate the reply.  Based on the differences in quality of finish seen on the lathes e.g. a PM1236 vs the 1236T, I'm interested in some observations on how the Chinese made base for the 835S compares.


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## Batmanacw (Nov 4, 2020)

TX COWDOC said:


> Appreciate the reply.  Based on the differences in quality of finish seen on the lathes e.g. a PM1236 vs the 1236T, I'm interested in some observations on how the Chinese made base for the 835S compares.



Mine is really nice so far. The machining isn't perfect. My table had a blemish they filled in on the front. If I had it to do over I'd happily buy my mill again. The table moves like butter. Everything moves beautifully. The only issues are mildly cosmetic.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 12, 2020)

Batmanacw said:


> Mine is really nice so far. The machining isn't perfect. My table had a blemish they filled in on the front. If I had it to do over I'd happily buy my mill again. The table moves like butter. Everything moves beautifully. The only issues are mildly cosmetic.
> 
> View attachment 343142
> 
> ...



Have you milled stainless or other hardened steel with it? I'm leaning towards the 835 because of the price. Does it have any problems using large endmills 1/2" or larger? Heavy cuts and vibration?


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## Batmanacw (Nov 12, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Have you milled stainless or other hardened steel with it? I'm leaning towards the 835 because of the price. Does it have any problems using large endmills 1/2" or larger? Heavy cuts and vibration?



I cut 0.1" deep on 1.25" wide steel with a 1.5" face mill and it cut super smooth.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 12, 2020)

Batmanacw said:


> I cut 0.1" deep on 1.25" wide steel with a 1.5" face mill and it cut super smooth.



Just regular mild steel? Have you worked on high carbon or stainless with your mill yet?


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## davidcarmichael (Nov 12, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Just regular mild steel? Have you worked on high carbon or stainless with your mill yet?


I have used mills up to 3/4 on drill rod.
I have used larger roughing mills on mild steel and a 4" face mill on mild steel. Never had a problem. The 3-phase motor I added and the VFD helps..


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## Batmanacw (Nov 12, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Just regular mild steel? Have you worked on high carbon or stainless with your mill yet?



It was mild steel, but cutting something harder would be as easy as breathing. Just have to use the right feeds and speeds and the right cutter. My mill seems to be very rigid compared to what I'm used to. It's more the Indian than the arrow.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 12, 2020)

I have a PM-25MV and my mill struggles with hardened steel.


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## Batmanacw (Nov 12, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I have a PM-25MV and my mill struggles with hardened steel.


Define "hardened steel."


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## Pcmaker (Nov 12, 2020)

Basically stainless steel. A week ago, I was trying to take off .020 off a piece of 5/16" stainless flat bar using a 3/8" carbide 4 flute endmill with coolant and the steel became gummy, the mill was shaking hard.


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## Batmanacw (Nov 12, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Basically stainless steel. A week ago, I was trying to take off .020 off a piece of 5/16" stainless flat bar using a 3/8" carbide 4 flute endmill with coolant and the steel became gummy, the mill was shaking hard.



The endmill stopped cutting and started work hardening the steel. Rubbing will destroy your cutter very quickly. 

I've cut stainless on my mill drill with no issues and my 835 is massively more rigid. 

Looks like you needed around 1000 rpm and 7 inches per minute for a 0.0018" chip load on a 4 flute cutter. What were you running?


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## Pcmaker (Nov 13, 2020)

I had it around 750 rpm and was feeding it slowly. I could never figure out how to measure feed rate


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