# Some Thoughts On Filler Material And It's Quality.



## Keith Foor (Sep 3, 2016)

I was bored so I figured I would type this out as food for thought.  
We may or may not consider the source or quality of our filler rod or wire when at the TSC or welding supply picking up stuff for the current project.  But should we?  In truth TIG filler material really runs the gambit in overall quality and price.  I am guessing that most of you will go pay good money for material for a project.  And depending on the project, some of that steel is expensive.  So why when you can buy a pound or two of vacuum sealed metallurgic ally verified filler rod that will become O-1 tool steel or 8620 armorers steel or what ever you are working with.  As opposed to the cheap stuff that can be no better than coat hanger wire and is copper coated.   Ever wonder WHY the wire is copper coated?  Think it's some super high tech alloy that make your Harbor Freight TIG machine weld as good as a Miller or Lincoln?  It ain't.  The copper is there as a lubricant.  They use copper to lube the wire dies when they size the wire to it's final diameter.  Does it matter?  Well, I am not a metallurgist.  I know that the copper stays in the weld puddle though.  SO what does it do to that weld.  Is it contaminated with the copper?  Not sure, but if could be.  And what was the source of the wire to begin with.  Is it virgin alloy steel?  Does it match the material I am welding? Is it old pickup trucks and discarded lathe castings and vices from Harbor Freight?  We really don't know.  Now to be clear, If I am welding a utility trailer together, I don't much care.  The thing is built from mild steel that may or may not have some rust on it already and most trailers are overbuilt or underbuilt to begin with.  They either are heavy enough to carry a bus load of concrete blocks or they will bend as soon as you put a mower on them.. I really have never seen the in between  when it comes to back yard fabricated trailers.  But, if you are doing gunsmith work.  Building a machine tool that you have possibly thousands of dollars invested in between money and man hours, why would you not spend the extra money for the good filler material?  And for those of you that TIG a lot of stainless and can't ever seem to get the black to go away and get those pretty rainbow colored welds like in the youtube videos, try a better filler rod.  It seemed to make a difference for me.


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## Smithdoor (Sep 4, 2016)

Filer metal is basically what type of welder your using and what you welding.
TIG and torches are one simplest most of time just same metal you welding
MIG welding you need buy size and type for your metal. My self I am welding mild steel (A36) with a gas less flux core welder  two main type ether E71T-GS or E71-11 .030 [.8mm] both will do the job .
Stick welding has more type depending on what welding
For heavy plate (A36) the first pass is with E6010 or E6011 all the other passes with E7018

Dave


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## Keith Foor (Sep 4, 2016)

Huh?  
Not sure you were following what I was saying Dave.  
And with doing a 6011 root and then 7018 cap I can see that on pipe, but why would you do that on plate?  

Beyond that, the point I am making is the cheap filler material, especially the copper coated stuff, is of some metal composition that we don't really know.  It's just steel, or aluminum or whatever.  When you get into welding 8620 or AR500 or say you are doing a job hard-facing, you are not just gonna grab the 3 dollar a pound copper coated wire for filler.  And with some things you can't, like hard-facing or welding back up a demilled rifle action.  While you technically can, it will probably come apart.   But knowing this, why would you weld up your spindle shaft that you are going to regrind and put back in your mill or lathe with 3 dollar a pound cheap filler?


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## Smithdoor (Sep 5, 2016)

This is used on structural steel
At one time I could not use E70S-T or E70S-6 on structural steel, It would make good looking welded and no penetration not good for structural steel in Ca. When was in the work for shop work on use E71T-11 with CO2 gas at any some may X-ray your weld it past ever time.
On drawings for welding rail I had to sepc out E10018-D2 with per heat.
Today and even in past you need to us  right  with rod or wire for welding.
One the best books I ever found is printed by Lincoln on welding it is about 3"[75mm]  thick and 8 x 11  This book well help for finding the right rod or wire.



Today I just do welding for hobby work I just use E71T-GS or E71T-11 no gas to leak out and works ever time

Good luck
Dave

PS
Try ebay or Amazon for the book
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro..._nkw=ocedure+handbook+of+arc+welding&_sacat=0

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...&rh=i:aps,k:procedure+handbook+of+arc+welding




Keith Foor said:


> Huh?
> Not sure you were following what I was saying Dave.
> And with doing a 6011 root and then 7018 cap I can see that on pipe, but why would you do that on plate?
> 
> ?


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## Uglydog (Sep 5, 2016)

I can put down a TIG puddle with decent dimes.
I wont call myself a welder as there is way to much to know and more importantly understand.
It is interesting for me to note that the AWS offers a lifetime of learning about all kinds of stuff including filler metal.
http://pubs.aws.org/t/FillerMetalSpecifications

Daryl
MN


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## Ironken (Sep 26, 2016)

Keith Foor said:


> Huh?
> Not sure you were following what I was saying Dave.
> And with doing a 6011 root and then 7018 cap I can see that on pipe, but why would you do that on plate?
> 
> Beyond that, the point I am making is the cheap filler material, especially the copper coated stuff, is of some metal composition that we don't really know.  It's just steel, or aluminum or whatever.  When you get into welding 8620 or AR500 or say you are doing a job hard-facing, you are not just gonna grab the 3 dollar a pound copper coated wire for filler.  And with some things you can't, like hard-facing or welding back up a demilled rifle action.  While you technically can, it will probably come apart.   But knowing this, why would you weld up your spindle shaft that you are going to regrind and put back in your mill or lathe with 3 dollar a pound cheap filler?



I kinda get what you are driving at but strongly disagree with your take on copper coating. Many quality manufacturers sell wires with or w/o copper coating. These uncoated wires can be prone to rust for those of us living in humid climates thus the copper coating as well as feedability. So, copper coating has a purpose beyond hiding bologna wire. No coating on my metal core wire and it being a tubular wire forces me to remove the spool from my machine and store it in a big bag with dessicant when not in use to avoid moisture getting into the core and rust.

The odds of getting virgin steel wire is low. Most of it starts life as scrap. Each heat is sampled and sent to the metallurgy lab where depending on the results, adjustments will be made to that heat to get it back into spec.  Where I do completely agree with you is wire quality. For the price difference per lb. it is silly to use crap wire from horrible freight, tractor supply and the like. As with machines, there is consumer grade products and industrial grade products. I want to be able to see a heat number and verifiable as welded testing regarding the wire that I purchase as well as the metallurgy in the spec sheet. I spend the money on quality industrial equipment and consumables because I need it to perform correctly.

Time for a rant.....
When I look at the local Craigslist ads, there are a slew of home hacks that are advertising their welding expertise. One honyak claims that he "will be able to weld aluminum as soon as he buys a bottle of Stargone(sp)". You've gotta be s---ting me! Stargon is a tri mix. He also claims to be a master mig welder. I have called a couple and inquired about their equipment. Yep....Home Despot or Horrible freight equipment. This is my competition. I love it!

BTW, I also have some fine books from the JF Lincold foundation including the one  pictured in this thread. Very, very good materials.


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## Keith Foor (Sep 26, 2016)

You can buy virgin steel TIG wire.  In vacuum sealed bags of one pound packs.  But yes, much of the other stuff is scrap based, and may or may not be anywhere close to the metal being welded.  And in all honesty, in the hobby machinist arena, in 99 projects out of 100 it frankly don't matter much.  But then there is that one that it does. 

Now as far as the copper keeping the wire from rusting.  If it's a $14 for 10 lb roll of Harbor Freight wire, then ok.  If you paid 100 bucks for that roll, you are going to cut it loose, and put it in a wire storage case with desiccant in it to eliminate the moisture.   Truth is that ANY wire should be taken off the machine and stored properly, but again, if it's crap wire it's a minor thing to spool off 20 feet to get down to the unrusted part, who cares. 

Now as far as the rant.  Yep.  That is pretty much what I see as well.  I have been welding for more than 30 years.  I have one son that went through a welding and machining program and is a mill rite.  My other son is currently in that same high school program and I have been playing with the machining thing for the last few years.  I have seen similar ads and talked to similar people that claimed to be welders that had nothing more than a tombstone (had one myself for years) and a small set of torches.  Some of the claims made by these folks are priceless.  They can get a couple pieces of metal to stick together on a farm implement and that makes them a master welder. 

As far as jobs I have done where it mattered, on specifically comes to mind.  I was working for a company that used large home brew steam presses in their manufacturing process.  These presses were constructed of 2 inch thick plates with a huge hinge on the back and a very heavy locking system on the front.  The press plates were rubber with nylon cord in them.  Basically they were a bias ply tire sidewall that was 36 by 48.  The fastened down with 96 1/4 20 bolts.  To remove them they would simply break the bolts by over tightening them. Until someone bought 20ooo grade 8 bolts that defied being snapped.  So they went to a cold chisel to knock the heads off.  Issue was the chisel was about a foot too short.  Several people tried several times to weld the chisel to a piece of drilll rod, and the weld would break after about 3 hits of the hammer.  The shortness issue was due to needing to get the workers hands too close to the press that was 300 degrees.  So it had to be dealt with.  I offered to weld one or two up and was basically laughed at.  But I was given two chisels and two pieces of rod that I had them taper at 45 degrees to a point.  I had looked at the broken pieces and they were only welding them on the outer surface and not getting 100% penetration.  So I welded them up and gave them back.  The one maintenance guy was sort of ****** that I did it and claimed he would have it broken by morning.   The other was taken to the production floor where as far as I know it's still in use.  The other one was put in a 100 ton press and bent.  Then pressed straight and bent the other way,  at that point the maintenance guy gave up.  The actual weld was done with 11018 rod from root to last pass and then annealed with a torch.  Basically heated dull red and allowed to cool.  I got into a bit of trouble over all this from my boss because I didn't work for the maintenance dept and the maintenance supervisor called my boss and complained that I was welding in his shop.  But he found out about the second chisel being horseshoed and sort of changed his tune.  I worked for that companies IT department.  Hence the reason the maintenance guys were mad.  Better than half had tried and failed and the other half said it wasn't possible.  Now of course looking back, that wasn't much of a welding project.  But, they were thunderstruck that the damn computer guy could do it and they fought it for so long.


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## Keith Foor (Sep 27, 2016)

A funny side note to this story.  After 9-11 a number of us got laid off.  We would all get together at Bob Evans to eat and share contacts because a number of us took a bit of time to find work.  I remember the day that Paul (maintenance supervisor) came in and told me of a welding job.  His statement was sort of funny.  Go see this guy, I already talked to him.  He's a friend of mine and needs a welder..... and you damn sure proved you CAN weld.  I told him about the chisel and he said he would give you a job on the spot.  While i never did go to work for him as a full time employee I did a good bit of contract welding for him.  He paid cash and that was that.  But Paul commenting about it the way he did was priceless.


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## Ironken (Sep 30, 2016)

Keith, maintenance guys are a funny bunch. They seem to assume that the guys are stupid and nobody knows what they do. I can kinda get why they get that way after fixing stuff that gets tore up on a daily basis. 

You mention a guy on a farm that can puke together a couple pieces calls himself a welder. That brings me to this....

What's the difference between a farmer and a welder? A welder doesn't think he can farm!


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## CluelessNewB (Sep 30, 2016)

Ironken said:


> What's the difference between a farmer and a welder? A welder doesn't think he can farm!



My Dad, an electrician would tell the same story, just replace welder with electrician!


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## Smithdoor (Oct 1, 2016)

Welder need to work fast. I have found Farmer that where good welder but did work fast but they need to work at harvest be for rain


Same for Electricians if they work to fast error are made


Dave


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## Andre (Oct 3, 2016)

TIG wire is always contaminated, that's why I prefer using coat hangers for filler


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