# New Shop in the basement



## shooter123456 (Sep 26, 2020)

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## mmcmdl (Sep 26, 2020)

I did the opposite of what you're doing back in 93 . I moved my shop from a climate controlled basement to the other house 300 yards away . I then clubbed the basement all in oak , carpeted etc . I'm now in the process of downsizing and putting what I want to keep back down into the other house basement . I ran a large RPC back then , it took care of everything I needed . As far as moving things , lately I've been using the neighbors Bobcat just for re-arranging things . Back when I did the big move , I rented a all terrain Baker-York forklift with sliding forks . $300 bucks for 3 days . It took less than an hour though . I installed an Anderson 8 foot slider also , which helped out quite a bit .

I have to add , I dropped my first lathe off the dollies . Almost killed me AND the cat . It did a face plant onto the basement cement . Being it was a 17"x80" lathe , it left its' mark ! Still got the 3 way crack in the floor !


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## silence dogood (Sep 26, 2020)

Here's 3 cents worth.  1st. penny, make sure that the water from the hill and the roof goes around and away from the house. Keep that basement dry.  2nd penny,  LED lights can run on their own 15 amp circuit.  But besides  the 220 ,you might as well make your 110 plug ins at 20 amps.  3rd penny.  Making the door opening is great but you may need to redo the header so it can support the upper story. Wish you the best.


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## mickri (Sep 26, 2020)

It would be nice if you had a driveway to the lower portion of the property for a lot reasons besides ease of moving the equipment.

If the house isn't too old you might be able to get the thickness of the slab and the reinforcing rebar from the building department.  The permit file should have the name of builder and the structural engineer who engineered the house.  You should be able to get the info from them. 

If you only have a 100 amp panel I would upgrade to a 200 amp panel.  That will give you the extra circuits you need.

Some pictures of the property would be helpful.


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## Karl_T (Sep 26, 2020)

sounds like you got a great plan.

I have a similar setup. walkout basement with a garage and my shop on the basement level.

You will have the same issue i have - two pounds of stuff is a space for one pound. All the walls are shelves or pegboard clear to the ceiling. Lots of rolling carts and die carts. have to roll everything away from the machine of the moment to use it.  in my case i put the welders and torch on a cart and roll it outside to weld.

for sure a sub panel is the way to go. My ceiling has a 3 phase  electrical run around the perimeter with SO cord drops and plugs. My grinders are on steel skids so I can roll them out of the corner with a pallet truck and then plug in. Lots of drops when building is a great idea. You do not know what you will buy in the future. 

Only thing too noisy in my shop is the air compressor. I put it in the far corner of the garage. i didn't do it but a sound deadening box around it would be a good idea.

Now I LOVE a baemsnt shop. If milady tells me supper is going to be another 20 minutes, I  head downstairs.  All these little bits of free time really add up over a year.


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## extropic (Sep 26, 2020)

Reading between the lines, I'm assuming you have history with the house and know that the basement is *DRY*. If that's not true, do whatever is necessary to get it dry and keep it dry.

You say you have no experience at achieving the kind of power, sound and HVAC requirements that you describe. Add, on top of no experience, a Fiancé plus some schedule pressure which adds up to you're in a heap of trouble. The bottom line is, you will need considerable professional help to accomplish all in a timely manor. Do (did) you intend to invest a lot of sweat equity or hire professionals? Can you locate a reliable General Contractor?

There are too many unknowns, at this time, to provide any real answers. I'll just add a few random thoughts that may be helpful to discuss with professionals as you proceed.

Power: You didn't tell us the current (no pun intended) electrical service amp rating? If it's low (100 Amps or so) and that's why it's "at capacity", you'll probably be best off getting a new main box and service at the highest practicable amperage. A lot (huge amount) depends on your utility company and local building & planning authorities. Have you investigated their rules and options? I would say the ideal goal would be a 400 service with a 200 amp sub panel in the basement. Your authorities may not even allow a 400 amp service to a single family residence. What service will they allow/do (within a cost that doesn't ruin your plans)?

Sound: Here is a link to a pretty good isolation system for ceiling/walls. There are other, simpler and less effective options. There are contractors that specialize in acoustic insulation/isolation. Google is your friend. Fundamentally, isolate a hard ceiling, walls common with living spaces and isolate all equipment from intimate contact with the structure of the house. I would either spend what ever it took to buy a "quiet" compressor or put your compressor in a sound insulated (to keep the neighbors off you case) out building. By quiet compressor I mean the type associated with dental offices and the like. I've never known a compressor that I would want to live with in a closed 900 SF space. When I used to work in my detached garage (shop), the compressor was the first thing that got rolled outside.

HVAC: Isolate the shop (not the Gym). I'm thinking strip the shop to the studs and add an inch of closed cell spray foam EVERYWHERE to seal the space. Install separate split mini system(s) to condition the space as required. Filter(s) equipment as required. This recommendation ties into the acoustic issue also. Duct work is a sound tube too. Isolate the shop and air quality will only need to meet your requirements. Honey, what's that smell? NOT.

That's enough food for thought. Except to add, I hope you've got the $$$$$$ to pull this off. It will be fun to watch.


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## Aukai (Sep 26, 2020)

A 1/4" x 4" masonry bit, and a tube of epoxy can tell you a lot about your foundation when you get the carpet up.  Double check if anything is running under it first.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 27, 2020)

Is the wall between the gym and shop already there? If not or if a non-load bearing wall it would make more sense to reverse their position. Easier to get the machines in without going through a second smaller door. It puts the gym closer to the inside stairwell, good for sound, good for reduced chance of smells going up the stairs, less likely to track chips up the stairs (they will fall off in the gym which may only be a little better depending on who the gym is for). Last those big doors could help with ventilation.

I am also a basement dweller. I had to disassemble my 11x24" lathe to move it in. Still a lot of weight in the bed and headstock, but removing the tail stock, motor and carriage is not too hard and does shed quite a bit of weight. Of course the lathe off the base. My lathe weighs 950lbs with the base, so not a lot less than yours. I estimated the weight of the bed and head (minus spindle and gears which I removed) at around 350-400lbs. I moved it strapped down to a heavy duty garden cart. I did all the lifting with an engine hoist. The whole move was done with just my son and I.


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## brino (Sep 27, 2020)

@shooter123456 

I am following this thread.

A couple thoughts\questions\comments:

1) Can you leave the compressor in the garage and just run a pipe to the new basement shop space?
That's one noisy piece that could stay remote.

2) Can you move equipment around from the current garage shop to the new basement shop in the back of a pickup? How steep and narrow are you talking? Also, make sure you know where any septic bed might be so your not driving over that.

3) Where is the current electrical panel, and what size is it?

4) You did NOT mention welding under the "Power" section, but you did under the "Air Filtration" section.
I know it's convenient to have many tools co-located, but I'd suggest trying to leave the welding in the garage too.

-brino


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## shooter123456 (Sep 27, 2020)

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## shooter123456 (Sep 27, 2020)

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## shooter123456 (Sep 27, 2020)

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## francist (Sep 27, 2020)

It’s nice when parents are able to give a child a boost like that. Looked after, it can make all the difference in the world well down the line. Good luck with the renovation. 

-frank


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## shooter123456 (Sep 27, 2020)

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## shooter123456 (Sep 27, 2020)

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## Aaron_W (Sep 27, 2020)

I seem to have misunderstood the location of the stairs. I thought the notch in the back corner was an interior stairwell opening into the gym area.


I got my cart at Tractor Supply for about $90. It is rated to 800lbs, although I question the reality of that. I have hauled 400lbs+ of concrete in sacks with it though. For moving machinery I put a piece of plywood on it, as the expanded metal doesn't like point pressure of odd protrusions. There is a heavier model rated for something like 1200lbs, for another $40-50. I have used it to move all of my machines, it has proven to be very handy. It has knobby pneumatic tires so can handle some dirt / gravel surfaces if not too soft.

I had a similar cart I got from Ace hardware, that is probably hauling recycling (walked out of my driveway one night), I'm sure you can find similar at Northern Tool and various garden stores.

I think I have this one. I bought it a couple years ago, but very similar if not the same.

Tractor Supply Garden cart


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## mickri (Sep 27, 2020)

One way to add circuits to a panel is to use what I call half size or thin circuit breakers.

Another thing to think about is how many machines will ever be running at the same time.   Do you really need a separate circuit for each machine.  You could literally get away with one circuit for lights, one 220 circuit and one or maybe two 110 circuits.  By replacing the two existing basement full size circuit breakers and two other full size circuit breakers with thin breakers you would have all of the circuits you need without having to upgrade your panel.  Or you could replace the two existing basement circuit breakers with a double pole breaker to run 220 to a subpanel in the basement.  This would give you the most options.

I would check the wire size in the existing basement circuits.  You need 12 ga  wire for 20 amp circuits.  15 amp circuits typically have 14 ga wire.

Being able to use your existing panel will save you big $$$$$.  No need to get your utility company involved or the local building dept or even an electrician.  What you are proposing to do is just basic home wiring.


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## extropic (Sep 27, 2020)

When I wrote about DRY, I meant free from intrusion of ground water or storm water (assumed the waste system is intact). Atmospheric humidity is no problem with proper HVAC equipment (to dehumidify).

Great that you know a good HVAC guy. He's the guy you should be bouncing your desires and all these ideas off of. Make it worth his while.

Ok. Now we know the existing electrical load center is in the garage. Right? That's good. Are the service conductors overhead or underground?
The service conductors, up to the meter, belong to the utility. If they need to be upgraded, to get a 400 Amp service, you may have to pay. It's common enough to put a 400 amp service into two 200 Amp load centers. It sounds like you have crawlspace (that is accessible) between the garage and the proposed shop. Locate the new 200 load center in the shop area and connect all basement and backyard requirements to that. There are too many unknowns to get into a detailed plan here. Such as, will the existing meter box need to be replaced? Is it OK to just add a new 200 Amp Main breaker box in the garage to feed the new LC in the basement?

The buildings configuration (including location of HVAC equipment, hot tub, electrical panel) has a significant impact on "what to do". I think a previous reply completely misunderstood the location of the stairs. Or, maybe it's my misunderstanding. Regardless, the environment is 3D, so adding detail (the garage, stairs, crawl space, hot tub, HVAC equipment, house outline (at least) and a line approximating the terrain) to the model would help everyone get the picture and provide useful input (no guarantees). All the additions to the model (maybe make a separate model) don't need to be be exact dimensions. Just provide an overview with a frame of reference (N,S,E,W).

Acoustic foam panels are primarily for damping reverberations in the room, not insulation/isolation.

The compressor in the garage is an option but a sound deadening enclosure may be needed to keep everyone happy.

Think of the 9 foot tall crawl space as undeveloped volume that you could use to your advantage. Is there a stud wall common to the shop and the crawl space? Imagine a storage rack for raw stock (properly enclosed) with one end open into the shop. The compressor (properly enclosed) could be in the crawl space.

I want to mention direct access, from the shop, to the outdoors. I didn't mention it earlier because I interpreted the thick walls, below the shop windows, as an indication of ground level being above floor level. Regardless, I think direct access, to and from, the shop is very important. By direct access, I mean without going through ANY living space. If you had concrete pad outside (big enough to land that VMC) you will never regret it.
Don't forget the sump and pump. Build a removeable deck over it (if that makes sense) to hide it, but it could be your welding, grinding, solvent tank, painting area. Ten feet x ten feet outside would be a game changer.

One last idea. You are a young man, 2 years out of school. Young, strong, plenty of energy and boundless potential. It's been a bit longer than that for me, lol. You wrote "The gym was a request from my Fiance, but the chips shouldn't be an issue. She has gotten used to chips getting in occasionally. When she finds them in her socks, she usually pulls them out and says "I think this belongs to you." Think of those chips as seeds of discontent. You need to be aware, and concerned about those chips and any other seeds of discontent. If you ignore them, or treat them casually, they will germinate and grow into a terrible mess that may inconvenience you to no end. She is also young and strong and in the pre honeymoon phase. Cherish, honor and nurture that. Don't exercise it and attempt to find its limits. This paragraph contains the most valuable information I have offered you.


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## extropic (Sep 27, 2020)

It's fun helping someone else spend their money.


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## mickri (Sep 27, 2020)

I'd like to help him spend as little of his money as possible.   That way he will have more money to spend on the fun stuff and his fiance.  I have done several major projects like this and it always cost at least twice what I thought that it would cost.  As soon as you start paying people to do stuff the cost will skyrocket.

You need to up your budget by a factor of 4.  First is the cost of outfitting your shop.  Then the fiance is going to be asking what about the house.  I want this, this and that.  And oh yea we need this too.  And that over there.

Keep us informed on how things are going.


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## shooter123456 (Sep 27, 2020)

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## shooter123456 (Sep 27, 2020)

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## brino (Sep 27, 2020)

Excellent thread all around!
Great advice from the group and great feedback from the OP.



francist said:


> It’s nice when parents are able to give a child a boost like that. Looked after, it can make all the difference in the world well down the line. Good luck with the renovation.



Agreed. This is not only fantastic for the couple involved, but pays true dividends with the future grand-kids as well!
Lower debt can mean better outcomes.

With a 200A panel, you should be good. That should be enough for an average sized house with a shop.
If the existing panel is already full it's likely that previous wiring was done without sharing.
It is likely that you will need to get a few existing circuits consolidated onto common breakers though.
Check the local codes.

One thing that can help size the job is a good map of exactly what lights and outlets are on what breaker.
Wait until you are home alone, then turn on one breaker at a time and map what lights and outlets are powered.
A loud radio can help map things from a distance.

The only other thing I could add is that you could (for short-term) collapse the shop into half the garage and let her park her car inside.
Move the car out when you need to use the shop, then clean-up the space and bring it back in.
Freak hail storms do not occur that often, but it puts the idea forward that you are NOT just thinking of yourself!

It sounds like you are in a good place (great!) and are doing your research (SMART!).

I hope it all goes very well!
-brino


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## extropic (Sep 27, 2020)

All the information you added is very helpful. All the following is food for thought.

Using crawlspace volume: I think it's fair to say that many of us, hobby machinist types, never have enough shop space. Some of us can fill up any volume in unbelievably short time and no clear horizontal surface stays that way very long. There are exception and I honor them. If you are anything like (what I think is) the majority, eventually you will desire ways to expand your useful shop volume. Leave you options open. By the way, I didn't mean to suggest a door from the shop directly into the crawlspace. I'm assuming the existing exterior access to the crawlspace is a full sized personnel door. I don't yet know why you would want another door from the shop.

Shop exterior door: That hot tub pad is excellent. I was imagining a much less friendly exterior topography. Put an out-building in the back of the yard to house all the miscellaneous stuff (I resisted calling it yard junk). Make it a high quality out-building (no such thing as too large ) so it looks good and doesn't become a maintenance PITA. Back to the shop: Of course, add a doorway adequate to pass the future VMV. That is structural and will require proper, legitimate, professional type engineering and construction to avoid breaking the house in half. I'm assuming the pad is very close to interior floor level so it will be very easy to roll things out and back in. If not, modify the concrete pad to make a minimum of a doorway wide path at the correct level. You may not mind, but SWMBO will not long enjoy looking at your latest, half finished, welding project when she goes down for a nice relaxing soak in the tub. The concrete pad could be extended into the back yard and a roll up awning added to the backyard side of the deck structure, if more exterior (temporary/project) workspace is desired. Eliminate the door between the shop and the gym. Change your chip infested shoes/clothing before you enter the living area. Maybe in the garage. Along those lines, wear "shop only clothing" in the shop and keep the dirties out of the house until you have enough to make a washer load. Wash them with no other clothing. Prevent those seeds of discontent. Inform her of your plan to keep the shop out of the house. You need her to understand how considerate you are.

Electrical: If you get a service upgrade, IME, the utility will not do any work without you putting needed permits and inspections in place. That means it will be above board and legal. None of that work under the table. This is important to you for insurance purposes too. Insurance coverage will be void if unpermitted work is discovered. Such things are done all the time, but those who do it need to know and assume the risks. Do you have any family members or reliable family friends in a construction trade? Such contacts can be very valuable. Anyway, once the electrical utility has completed it's work, the sub-panel and a few circuits are installed and inspected in the shop area, the permits can be closed and you're on your own. Access to the crawl space is easy so electrical on those two walls can be behind the walls. Route the conduit/wiring high in the crawlspace and drop down where you want to penetrate the wall. That will preserve the option of the potential use of crawlspace volume I mentioned before. Surface mount all the electrical on the exterior and gym/shop partition so it's easy to install and add/change.

Moving equipment: The North side looks the best to me. Are you not on totally cooperative terms with the neighbor to the North? A rough terrain fork lift could make short work of it, even if you have to stake down sheets of OSB. If the neighbor plants near the property line, you're screwed. Assuming the property line is approximately in the middle, consider building a retaining wall at the property line. run the retaining wall, on the West end, as far toward the street as practicable which will give you a nice level area next to the driveway (extra parking pad for the boat?). Add fill to eliminate the South-to-North slope and smooth out the Easterly grade to the back yard. 
looks like the tree near the NE corner of the garage would have to go. It's just cluttering you gutters anyway.

Regulatory issues: What you name (call) the space and how you describe your plans may be critical to fitting within regulatory requirements. Do some local research to investigate what will work and what won't. For instance, if you call it a gym, game, hobby space it may be much more palatable than a gym, machining, welding, grinding space. If you say you need more amps for a planned Sauna room and a lap pool it may go down easier than a collection of machine tools (including a VMC) and welders. Get informed and protect yourself at all times. Oh yes, you need that North side retaining wall/ramp project to facilitate the construction of the planned lap pool.


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## westerner (Sep 27, 2020)

extropic said:


> This paragraph contains the most valuable information I have offered you.


I sense that perhaps you have trod this road before.....

All posts from this learned man should be reread until total understanding is achieved. I have a smidge of his experience, but his take and ability to convey the essence of the situation is priceless.


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## extropic (Sep 27, 2020)

@westerner 

Thanks for the compliment.
Yes, I have been down that road.
A learning experience is what we get when we don't get what we want.
I hope some find the opinion informative and useful.


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