# A lesson on giving criticism...wisely



## HMF (Mar 18, 2012)

A thread on here reminded me about taking criticism that is delivered harshly, and this story that changed my life.

I attended an ivy league college and dropped out my third year. I was lost there and didn't have any goals or even know why I was there. In addition, I had a baseball injury to my knee that made me lose 3 months the end of my freshman year, and I never recovered from the work I missed and all my finals.

So I did other things. But mostly, I played fast-pitch softball, almost religiously for about 3 years in the leagues in Central Park. I met a lot of characters on the field. One of them was a very arrogant, nasty guy who was an official with the NYC Parks department. 

One day, this guy sneeringly asks me in front of my team-mates what I do for a living. And I tell him I dropped out of college, but hope one day to go back.

His response was "you will never go back. You will be a bum the rest of your life like you are now" or something to that effect. Of course, my first instinct was to ballbat the f---er. I was really ticked. I muttered to myself, and hated that guy since that time (to this day in fact).

Went home that day after the game thinking about what that A-hole had said to me. Still wanted to smash his face in. Still do. But his words began to gnaw in my craw. I kept thinking about what he had said, over and over. As much as I hated him and what he had said, I came to the conclusion that he was right. Or at least right, for now, unless something changed. After I got past the intense anger, I decided to make him wrong.

I enrolled at summer school in a local city college and began to take courses there over summer, going to play ball in the park after class. Aced both classes, and decided to take some more. Aced those, too. And kept going. Soon, the college asked if I would like to transfer my credits over and matriculate there. So I did. Before I knew it, I had enough credits to graduate, with honors. It had all been motivated by the nasty things that SOB had said to me that day in the park.

Now, I am a very hardheaded guy, so maybe this was the only way I was going to get motivated, was to be kicked in the butt. Maybe, if he had gotten me aside and asked me nicely, I wouldn't have gotten my back up and reacted by putting my anger and hate of him into positive action. I am not sure. One thing I am sure of is that this guy is on Facebook, but not on my "friend's list." He didn't like being proven wrong any more than I dislike him being an arrogant a-hole. 

Point is, yeah, this guy's harsh words motivated me. But it may not be the way to motivate everyone. Some people react the other way- they turn off when they are approached or attacked this way. If you really want to help them, you have to back it off a bit. That is kinda what this place is about- we try to motivate and teach people without being overly harsh or kicking them in the butt.

:tiphat:Nelson


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## churchjw (Mar 19, 2012)

Great story Nelson

I think some people make themselves feel more important by putting others down.  For me I always feel better about myself when I raise people up.  I have a similar story.  When I was in 9th grade I went to my school guidance councilor.  I needed to get into Algebra 1 in order to take the right classes to get into college.  I have a fairly sever learning disability and was in remedial math.  She said there was no way to skip into Algebra 1 from remedial and why should I bother I wouldn't make it in college anyway.  Well short end of the story I now have my doctorate and I wander how much of that is due to the fact she ****ed me off saying what I couldn't do.  I use this when I teach as a way to remind myself that everyone of my students can do great things if I can find the right way to to help them and I never give up on any of them.  

Jeff


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## HMF (Mar 19, 2012)

churchjw said:


> Great story Nelson
> 
> I think some people make themselves feel more important by putting others down.  For me I always feel better about myself when I raise people up.  I have a similar story.  When I was in 9th grade I went to my school guidance councilor.  I needed to get into Algebra 1 in order to take the right classes to get into college.  I have a fairly sever learning disability and was in remedial math.  She said there was no way to skip into Algebra 1 from remedial and why should I bother I wouldn't make it in college anyway.  Well short end of the story I now have my doctorate and I wander how much of that is due to the fact she ****ed me off saying what I couldn't do.  I use this when I teach as a way to remind myself that everyone of my students can do great things if I can find the right way to to help them and I never give up on any of them.
> 
> Jeff



Jeff, shame on that b***h for discouraging you, but obviously, she was worried she couldn't do her job properly, and you suffered for it. So many people have learning issues, and they make it, because others care, or because, like you, they just refuse not to.

Luckily for both of us, we are stubborn, hard-headed types who don't give up.

About a year ago, I found a few of my old teammates on Facebook and added them as friends, and they were also linked to the a-hole who told me I was never gonna end up as anything. I decided to try to offer an olive branch and asked if he would befriend me, but he refused. Still the same, it seems. Sad that some people are that way. Either he still hates me (35 years later) or is angry he was wrong.

Either way, people who kick people when they are down are messed up. That's why I'm here. Deep down, I think, despite all my screwups, that I can do this hobby, despite all the put-downs. I understand "tough love" ways of teaching, and I have been there and done that. Anyone can look at me and say "Nelson, you f---d up, and you're an idiot". It takes a teacher to tell me what I did wrong and how to avoid it next time. That's what we need here. People to show guys like me how to excel. Ya'all feel free to step up and do that- can never have too many like that.

You often see guys refer to their mentors. It would be nice if they would BE mentors to someone else and pass it along.  It would have been nice if the a-hole in Central Park had said "Nelson, you have hit a bump, I will get you a part-time job with me and you go to school part-time and get your sh-t together". I'd have never forgotten his kindness. But instead, he painted me as a bum, and I remember him for being a jerk that angered me to the point I succeeded just to toss it in his face.

Some of the guys online have to decide which one they want to be.

Enough preaching.


:tiphat:Nelson


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## Gary Max (Mar 19, 2012)

Plus if you read a post that you know is going to start a fight------why not stop it before the fire gets roaring.


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## Redirish (Mar 19, 2012)

Nelson, you just keep preaching, you're doing good. I grew up pretty poor, have a ninth grade education, left school to help my Dad support the family. But, instead of accepting the idea that I wouldn't amount to much I learned every job I could. Operating almost every type of earthmoving equipment, welding, repairing heavy equipment, machining. Traded a customer out of an Atlas 618, learned how to run it by reading everything I could find, then got a SB 9" Model A, Atlas shaper, mill-drill, #5 Brown & Sharpe Mill, 20" shaper and tooling, and tool & cutter grinder. Finished my working years as a full time machinist. Having said all this, if I had listened to the people who told me I couldn't do it, I wouldn't have made it. Instead, I listened to those few who encouraged me to try, and I won't forget them. Henry Ford once said that " anything worth doing requires effort ", and " no one ever built a reputation on what he intended to do ". Much respect to all of you.)


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## HMF (Mar 19, 2012)

Gary Max said:


> Plus if you read a post that you know is going to start a fight------why not stop it before the fire gets roaring.



Gary,

The mods try to step in on here, but you know it is a fine line between moderation and censorship.
You get a bad rep for violating freedom of speech or banning people for "no reason." At least I do.

At least we step in here, some places it continues for pages till blood is drawn.
On some unnamed forums, the moderators and/or admins join in.


:tiphat:Nelson


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## HMF (Mar 20, 2012)

Redirish said:


> Operating almost every type of earthmoving equipment, welding, repairing heavy equipment, machining. Traded a customer out of an Atlas 618, learned how to run it by reading everything I could find, then got a SB 9" Model A, Atlas shaper, mill-drill, #5 Brown & Sharpe Mill, 20" shaper and tooling, and tool & cutter grinder. Finished my working years as a full time machinist. Having said all this, if I had listened to the people who told me I couldn't do it, I wouldn't have made it. Instead, I listened to those few who encouraged me to try, and I won't forget them. Henry Ford once said that " anything worth doing requires effort ", and " no one ever built a reputation on what he intended to do ". Much respect to all of you.)




Worked in a textile factory at age 8, loading machines that could take your arm off and crush you in huge rollers. Big, strong kid for my age- cropped, blond haired polski. Came home filthy, clothes torn, lungs full of cotton dust. Yeah, I work behind a desk now, but not always. I still love to get my hands dirty. Never had a manicure in my life.  I read the crap people have said about me online- big talkers, idle insults and threats, and I know that I earned anything I got in life, no one ever handed it to me. I've taught plenty of others in my profession, and without making them feel small. 

So sure, some of us have had it hard, but that doesn't mean we need to make it hard for others. Like I said when I started, you can ram a guy's nose into it to make him learn a lesson, or you can let him see his mistake and learn from it. Some forums think a good a$$-whopping is the only way to learn. I don't.

Last week at my "clock repair lesson" the teacher told me to wind a mainspring tight so we could clamp it. Off I went. The spring broke near the winding hook. Now, he could he told me what a f-up I was to break it, and send me home feeling bad. But he didn't. Instead, he told me that this happens sometimes, and showed me how to remove it and replace it. Some people can teach, others just aren't cut out for it.


:tiphat:Nelson


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## Redirish (Mar 20, 2012)

Nelson, you are right on about teaching others without trying to make them feel like an idiot. One of the most satisfying things in my life is to help others learn a trade, or hobby. Some are easy to train, others not. As to the insults and threats, I've lived with that too.


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## bsharp (Apr 7, 2012)

I normally only give criticism when asked for it. When I do give criticism I normally only say good things unless I think you truly value my opinion.  
Personally I believe my opinion has value so i don't just throw it around like bird feed. 
Try not to include emotion in criticism.
Remember truth is one of the most painful things to endure so if the criticism could be viewed as "negative" provide reason.

If confronted with criticism that was not asked for take it how it was given "like bird feed" and without value.
Try not to think of criticism as positive and negative as that is subjective. Think of it as valuable and non valuable.

In my life I have had many people treat me much like what was in the post and some a lot coarser than that. At the time I let my emotions get hurt as well and it made it harder for me to move forward. But after a while as I grew older and my life went on and never stopped improving I realized those people's criticisms where worthless and completely incorrect. The only criticisms that ever really made any difference where the ones I asked for and had value "Positive or negative".


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## HMF (Apr 8, 2012)

Criticism?
Someone asked this fellow to join here, and his response was:



> Nah,no thanks.
> 
> Nelson Timken,the founder of hobby-machinist,is a real ass hole.
> Nothing more than tool hoarding machine tool collector.
> ...



Now I look at this, and once, I get over the initial hurt and anger, realize that he has a point, none of my machines is working now. I'm just a collector of old iron at the moment. He also has another point, none of the "regulars" at other sites ("the old metal crowd") have joined here. However, the problem is that this is the type of criticism that doesn't help many of us. Some of us never get past the anger and hurt to consider the merits of this type of opinion. You have to start somewhere, buying the machines is a start, and learning to use them takes time. Not everyone is ready to do it straightaway. Do "hobby-machinists" just "learn" how to use their machines, or do they need time and a method? I think the latter. And until they learn, they are collectors, "talking the talk" without "walking the walk". 

This type of criticism doesn't help everyone. Some people need to be told HOW to learn to walk the walk. Case in point. I am mentoring with a clock repairer in the area. I have had clocks for years, but couldn't repair them. I was only a collector. Yesterday, I completed the repair of a simple time-only clock with help from my mentor. Next time, we will begin a more complex clock. In time, I will know how to repair as well as collect. It took years. In the meantime, I was just a "collector." Until someone was willing to help walk me through it. That is what we need here- people who are willing to "walk" us through it.

If you want to help someone like me "walk the walk" and you are an "old metal guy," please step up on here.


:tiphat:Nelson


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## llarson (Apr 8, 2012)

This is a great read, gets one to doing some thinking. Sad that some people seem to  have so little in their lives, they find comfort in complaining about probably everything. Personally, my comfort comes from working with people rather than against them.


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## Redirish (Apr 8, 2012)

That is the same attitude I found everywhere on another forum. (no names). I call it the "I'm-better-than-you" forum. They let me know I wasn't welcome there, never mind my years of experience. I don't own any $100,000.00 machines, so me and my South Bend, Atlas, HF, and Craftsman machines can go on down the road. OK, no problem. Nelson, you and the others keep buying and restoring machines, you'll be making lots of chips and enjoying every minute of it.


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## rickard (May 13, 2012)

Allthumbz said:


> .........I attended an ivy league college and dropped out my third year. I was lost there and didn't have any goals or even know why I was there. .................................
> :tiphat:Nelson



Sorry Nelson but after reading that , I feel the need to Add to my Rant. I sure your Community College Degree has served you well, but you almost sound Caviler about having that opportunity, Some of from Small Town West Texas, would never be given that chance. I can'tr imagine you didn't take full advantage of that opportunity. even if you had to live in your car and get 3 jobs


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## HMF (May 14, 2012)

rickard said:


> Sorry Nelson but after reading that , I feel the need to Add to my Rant. I sure your Community College Degree has served you well, but you almost sound Caviler about having that opportunity, Some of from Small Town West Texas, would never be given that chance. I can'tr imagine you didn't take full advantage of that opportunity. even if you had to live in your car and get 3 jobs




I have to agree with you.  I was young and stupid, and didn't realize the value of that opportunity. So I screwed it up and pi**sed it away like a fool. In fact, there were few other people who came from a working class neighborhood like mine. I was friends with  a few of those who did. I guess water seeks its own level. 

This thread became more popular than I ever expected it to. I guess people are as sensitive as I am to the delivery of criticism. I recently read a thread started on another forum where one of its members asked others to behave like "gentlemen" so that people wouldn't be afraid to participate. The responses that elicited were very interesting. Basically, most of the people who scare people from posting either didn't see themselves as such or thought it was fine to criticize harshly because, after all, it was a machinist forum, and their criticism was no less harsh than you would get on the job.

By contrast, we are a hobby forum. Sure, we have a lot of people who do this for a living on here, but we don't have to treat each other like errant employees, and tell them that they f!!!-ed up so that people are afraid to say anything.

So, those of you who haven't posted anything yet- go ahead! Green light! Dive in!
No one is going to treat you like a fool on here.


:tiphat:Nelson


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## jumps4 (May 14, 2012)

I like it here
I have been lurking in forums for years 
i have tried to preticipate but seem to always get that person who wants to prove their worth instead of answering my question I know nothing about any of this stuff and dont have time to find a "technical terms dictionary" to decode the answer every time I ask a guestion
I had to teach myself how to measure again when I started
I went to tech school and spent 39 years as an auto mechanic started at 14 changing water pumps and radiators in a body shop
 I like helping people with their cars and try to give them advice if they want to do their own repairs they will come back to me when the job is too big for them
 It seems like some people find it insulting what hobby machinists accomplish with no formal training and only want to talk to people that have paid the price they have to get their knowledge
 In my business everone thinks its fine to tell us they know how us mechanics are...
humm I think they just called me a theif  many a customer has been thrown out for that comment
 on another note it is very easy to take what was typed in the wrong way when that was not the intent of the person who answered you   read the answer only looking for the good in it first
I'm not a poet or a hemingway hell i can barly spell half these words 
Im not here to write a novel or be graded on my spelling 
 I had to make gears for my last project... I didnt have a clue  the answers i got were all true i need to know the pitch angle the diametric what ever  good answers but I cant afford all those gear cutter 
I needed gears for dummies and figured out how to make them without buying the cutter but making them from cad drawings  the people who tried to help were not rude just didnt understand my lack of funds  lol   I can reverse engineering any spur gear now to match by just knowing the diameter and the number of teeth extracting that profile from the cad drawing and turning it on the lathe to make the cutter no money makes me find different ways of doing the same thing... when I said in one group this is what I was going to do they said my gears will be crape humm  I broke them in with tooth paste and they are so quiet you can hear my piston changing directions phissss phisssss 
 In my business year ago everyone was told you have to have that huge sun machine to fix that car they dont even use them anymore 40 thousand dollar machines worth nothing today
I'm here to learn how to make tiny parts that work and to try to help anyone who wants to do the same my answer may not be the industry standard but it works well for me
thanks all
steve


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## rickard (May 14, 2012)

Allthumbz said:


> .......I guess people are as sensitive as I am to the delivery of criticism...........
> :tiphat:Nelson



I apologize Nelson I hate to be continually Disagreeable, or Contrary, BUT I for one Welcome and embrace  the delivery of criticism. I grew up in a time when Kids learned things from old men, it's like you'll always remember "Lefty Loosy Righty tighty", Just because you never want to hear an old guy say it again! There are so many things I'd have never done, if the old guys I grew up learning from didn't tell me how I couldn't do this or that! 
     We have become a society of Namby Pamby Losers because we are raising our children telling them "No little Johnny, you did your best, you didn't loose you're just the second winner" instead of " You Idiot, Yea you're the first Loser, and you Lost because you didn't put enough effort in to winning" we as Americans have lost our Craftsmanship Ethic, because everyone is sensitive delivery of criticism. 
      I've been lurking around for a while, and when I have a Project, I feel is good enough to show, I'll post it and WELCOME all delivery of criticism to make me a better Craftsman. it's like I get real put out in slot car forums when a racer post's pictures of OBVIOUS JUNK and just bad work, then all the lemmings tell them how good they did instead of Helping them to be better Racers and Craftsmen by helping them to identify where they went wrong! 
 criticism is what makes us better, Praise where it is undeserved is only a Crutch to foster poor Craftsmanship and through Undeserved Praise we are loosing Valuable skills. the WWII Generation was able to go from Launching 1 ship in 3 months to Launching 30 ships in one month with the Liberty Ships. That was only possible thought the Puritan Work Ethic and Craftsmanship Ethic, we're loosing though Political Correctness!  
      I my self was that kid in the early 70's at 10 years old trying to "Welding" Fork tubes together with a Tractor Battery and a cloths hanger to make chopper Bicycles, and I promise you if there wasn't some Old guy there to tell me "son that's not how you operate that", and then show me how to arc weld correctly, I'd have gone Blind and Broke every bone in my body. Sorry but criticism is the way we get better at our Craft, if you can't look at your work with a critical eye, You'll never be a better Craftsman. it does not matter if you do this for a living or a hobby. "What you do is Who you are". And if you don't aspire to be the best you, you can be, than all you do is drag society down
Rick


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## November X-ray (May 14, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with criticism provide it is delivered in a professional and diplomatic way. After all, diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to HE double hockey sticks and really make them look forward to the trip!


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## Tony Wells (May 14, 2012)

There is a huge difference between constructive criticism and a negative, belittling, condescending put-down. This place doesn't offer platitudes or attaboys just for feel good. If the job is well done, sometimes considering the person showing the work, then compliments are appropriate. If improvement can be made through education, then that also is appropriate and is delivered in an inoffensive manner. That's part of helping people learn. That's civilization at work. Any criticism that makes a person feel small, or stupid, has a negative effect on the continuing improvement of the skills they are trying to cultivate. That's why many people are here. Not to get slammed by the "Authoritarians" found on many other sites where beginners are discouraged, and justifiably are hesitant to display their work. The end result is that they receive no criticism.....of any kind, including the kind they can learn from without being made feel stupid. 

This isn't some rough and tumble shop where if you make a mistake, the crotchety oldsters are ready to pounce on the new guy as though they get their jollies off it. I know some that do. This is a place to learn, and for those who can, to teach.


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## jumps4 (May 14, 2012)

my family told me all my life i'd be a looser
i got in trouble in grade school...
never broke a law or went to jail, i raised 6 great kids
I know their critism is what made me prove them all wrong
my father is 80 still making house payments
i owe no one but the goverment taxes each year and god
not all critism is correct and should be seen in that way
but sometimes poor critism can have a good effect in the end
if you take offense to all critism no one will want to teach you anything
there are a lot of parts on my latest project that are just hunks of metal with holes drilled in them i wanted to see it run before i make it pretty if someone should see those parts without knowing why they were hurried they would be inclined to judge making it pretty first seems to be a waste of time if it wont work
steve


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## Tenn (May 15, 2012)

I read in this thread that criticism is good...done wisely.
I am currently mentoring a 14 year old boy and have seen a complete turn around in him. He was expelled from school twice before I got a hold of him (yeah I'm braggin but I think I've got braggin rights) I did what school doesn't do...I "showed" him "why" he needed to know what he was learning in school. Started out tough, the first day his head was spinning, later he told me he went home with the thought "WHAT have I got myself into ???!!!" I talked to his teacher 4 days into our little shop class she said "Marked improvement" 
Yeah I give him criticism the old "Lefty Loosey, Righty Tighty" bit and others. Sometimes I just sit back and watch him mess up with a big grin on my face and he tells me "You knew all along I was messing up didn't you ?" Yep son I sure did but sometimes when you don't learn by being told you learn from experience. The school of hard knocks can be very unforgiving but by jiggity you learn or wish you had !! There is a certain comradeship we've developed and yes sometimes I'm hard on him...he thrives on it because he's learning and gaining self confidence and he sees I have enough confidence in him to let him "tear up" my hard earned shiny tools and take it all in stride because I know that way back there "I" was that kid tearing up my Dad's tools and my Dad used to shake his head and tell me, "Education costs money...doesn't matter how you get it !" The first thing I showed my young apprentice was that awful gruesome pics of the man that got his brains beat out when his lathe sucked him under the shaft and tore his arm off. I did it tongue in cheek because it's really gruesome but he needed to know my tools will do the same to him. I think that was my last post here way back in January looking for that pic.
Does mentoring work ?   Does a skunk stink ? Is it dangerous ? Why yeah which is why when "we" aren't alert "we" go in the house for a cup of coffee or some cookies and milk (14 year olds are walking appetites !!). 
If I can still use these picture attachments I want to "show" you what we've done so far in 2 1/2 hours a day 4 days a week with some time off "cause Mom said I have to stay home and mow the yard, 'but I'd rather be working in the shop' "

We learn by doing but we also have some book work to help out too. AND he's learning how to use Machinery's Handbook. He told me after working out in the shop "school's a piece of cake !" Education is NOT cheap in our trade it comes with a price tag attached. But the rewards are worth the price...mentor someone and earn the price your education has cost...even if you have to pay the bill twice. One benefit is "the teacher learns more than the student" You have to learn to teach as you simply can't teach what you don't know and don't be too proud to say "I don't know"...even to a 14 year old. Part of teaching is admitting you don't know and learning together.


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## jumps4 (May 15, 2012)

thats great chris
nice projects too
steve


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## rickard (May 15, 2012)

Tenn said:


> I read in this thread that criticism is good...done wisely.
> I am currently mentoring a 14 year old boy and have seen a complete turn around in him. He was expelled from school twice before I got a hold of him (yeah I'm braggin but I think I've got braggin rights) I did what school doesn't do...I "showed" him "why" he needed to know what he was learning in school......
> Yeah I give him criticism the old "Lefty Loosey, Righty Tighty" bit and others. Sometimes I just sit back and watch him mess up with a big grin on my face and he tells me "You knew all along I was messing up didn't you ?" Yep son I sure did but sometimes when you don't learn by being told you learn from experience. The school of hard knocks can be very unforgiving but by jiggity you learn or wish you had !..........



Chris 
Good for you man, as you may have figured out from previous posts, as a Kid I learned everything that makes me what I am from Old Timers passing down a craft. I'm by no means a Master Machinist, but GOD Bless them Old timers that Taught me Everything.but there is one old guy in particular I've been Friends with since I was 17, and he spent many pain filled hours teaching me Drafting, and may Pain Filled years teaching me Design principals. Both of which have served me well in a lifetime of racing Slot Cars and since my UNPLANNED Retirement @ 35 (due to Health). The Drafting / illustration has supplemented my Income since, making it so I get the Luxury of eating! in my 20's I met Another Important "Mentor", while working at a Historic Streetcar Rail-Road. The Founder of the Streetcar Authority , was a real Knowledgeable Old guy that had a Real scene of humor, style of teaching, Like one time I got a car stuck in turn and Old ED LANDRUM, come out of the barn, not Yelling or mad or anything, but he did say the Harshest thing anyone ever said to me. He calmly walked over to the operator's window Lit his Pipe and said "Son that's not how you Operate one of those. Guess you better get it backed up so you can run it thought the Curve"  Then left me to spend 4-5 hours trying ti get it unstuck, before showing me the Draw bar and how to use another car to move the first one . To be truthful I can much better handle being yelled at and being called STUPID, then having that old guy tell me "That's not how you operate one of those" as if I had let him down and he was disappointed in me for that! and Yes I've paid for lots of my Education, Like cutting my thumb on a table saw @ 3 am


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## jumps4 (May 19, 2012)

I spent most of my life as a flatrate mechanic
if the labor book says the job takes 2 hours and you did it in 1hour you were paid for the 2 hours
if it took you 4 hours you were only paid 2 hours
if the car came back because of your poor workmanship you fixed it for free
including anything else you may have damaged
I learned very fast to listen to any and all ideas and made really good money
and did very good work If I was sloppy there was no paycheck critisim was more than welcome I'd sort the good from the bad
some people though are just stuborn you know them " dont tell me how to do this I have done it for years!!!"
example a guy in a shop i worked in. every time he did a gm timing chain he would line up the marks assemble the car and try to start it kapowwwww bang boom
i tried to tell him that when you align the marks on a v8, mark to mark, that that is top dead center number six cylinder not number 1 ,and the distributer was 180* out he blew up in my face threatened me
so i worked there for years listening to boom bang pow kaapow and everytime he would try it his way then change the distributer he was not going to be wrong
one day i noticed he did change the distributer before trying to start it and varoom it started first try but still needed to be timed because he had removed the distributer
seeing he had finally learned I mentioned that if he aligned the chain with the cam gear up instead of down he would not have to pull the distributer out at all he would be aligning the timing marks on top dead center number one cylinder and in most cases if no one move the distriburter it will be in perfect time when it starts he blew up again
some are slow to learn or never do, some can not be given advice at all
I learned if it seems like what I am doing is way to hard that someone else had put it together and i am probably doing something wrong I would seek out advice. speed and accuracy was the only way I could make a good living and I didnt get paid if I did it wrong I lost money
steve


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## rickard (May 19, 2012)

Rickabilly said:


> Sorry if you disagree with me, but I believe why we see this sort of bullying is simply as a result of the anonymity and safety afforded by distance, these people are cowardly, making punching bags of people simply looking for knowledge, taking out their frustrations for free and without repercussions, Not respected "Old Metal Guys" or "Gurus" of any kind, in my opinion, just "bullies".


the last 2 posts this guy had made have been one long attack and attempt to PC bully. You sir OFFEND ME. if You ain't the Best at what you do you're a LOOSER! second place is 1st Looser. jut because you weren't strong enough to learn how to get along in Society, do come here and attack Bully me with your P.C. Garbage!  Ohh and Please PM ME I'll send you a Bus ticket so I can say this to your face so there is no   "anonymity and safety"



Rickabilly said:


> while working in a hot metal area one of the tradesmen that had previously mentored me tried to run me down with a "hot metal car"(little train full of molten steel).
> 
> Why? because "I thought I was better than them" and they were "cutting me back down to size". Only thing was I hadn't changed at all, all I had done was to try and stay employed, months passed and they noticed that I was the same guy and while they would never talk to me they stopped trying to kill me and such like behavior, it was obvious that my "success" was making them feel like failures,



No sir that isn't why something like that happens, it's the SMUG Self-important Attitude you have displayed here your last 2 posts. 
Ohh and I'm sure I'm going to get the raw end of the stick for standing up to a bully like you , but morally can't just lay down and let you bully me around.


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## Tony Wells (May 19, 2012)

Rick, he is expressing his opinion just like you are. You come across pretty strongly yourself, yet the freedom here is to do this until it becomes personal. There is no rule that says we all must agree, but there is a rule that we allow others the freedom we claim for ourselves. You're attempt to stifle Rickabilly and his expression is a violation of that rule. He did not attack you. There was no bullying in his post. I believe his comments were actually directed towards the "senior" members elsewhere who do seem to revel in putting people in "their place". Now if you place yourself in that group, then perhaps that is why you felt that he directed those comments to you. 

If you feel our policy of equal treatment is unfair, then so be it. This forum is free, and everyone here is here because they want to be, not because they have to be. Your comments will rub some people the wrong way, honestly. I have thick enough skin myself, having worked in both ends of manufacturing, and experienced good and bad treatment long enough to not allow much bother me, so you don't bother me. BUT, you are in violation of the agreement you made by joining here. Consider yourself warned. If this criticism is more than you can bear, then leave. It's not personal, I am merely stepping in to enforce policy.


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## HMF (May 19, 2012)

Rickabilly said:


> Hello Rickard,
> In my opinion Nelson, part of your trouble online in these other forums has come from your letting folks know what your profession is in the "real" world, I know this is wrong, but in my experience old school blue/black collar workers have contempt for white collar workers and if they have an opportunity they'll kick you when you're down just to let you know that "you're in our world now buddy".




First, guys, you need to agree to disagree and let it go- this has been one of our most popular threads surprisingly. Never figured it would be when I started it, but lo and behold it is.  I have enjoyed reading it. I don't want (a) to see the admins or mods close it or (b) to see two productive members have words over it. Please- do me a favor here.

Second, Rickabilly- I agree 100% with what you said, except, you got one thing wrong. I never posted it. They Googled me, checked profiles, and found my Facebook and other information online, and then went on to post it publicly. The moderators there let them do it. I'd never in a million years reveal anyone's real name on here (though we collect it), or their personal info or let anyone else do it. That's just wrong. I think you guys are entitled to your privacy.

Third, about it being "their world". Yeah, I hear that. Except that what they don't know, because they don't know me, is that I began working in a factory at age 8. My old man ran it, and I helped him every day I was not in school. I loaded raw materials onto conveyors and into the hoppers of textile machines, and loaded and pushed bales of textiles around on hand trucks, I used a baling press (myself), and was around machines with no guards in those days that could take your arm off in a minute. Then, when I dropped out of college, old man got me a gig as a machine operator in a local machine shop running a Hardinge finishing lathe with a turret toolpost. All you have to go is look at my hands- you can see I'm not some p***y who had an easy life pushing papers around. Then, when I went back to college, I turned my HO model train business into a business, and made castings for model train kits and helped work my way through. I wish some of these people had gotten to know me, they would realize that most people in my line of work don't just decide to buy 1000 pound machines and get filthy if they haven't been part of that blue collar world. Sure, there are exceptions, but they are far and few. The guys I work with wouldn't touch my machines, much less work on them.


:tiphat:Nelson


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## swatson144 (May 20, 2012)

My opinion on the bullies we are speaking of is that they have lost contact with reality. It seems that most have run a machine shop for decades (allegedly) and have a "my way or the highway attitude". Then they are given moderator permissions and develop a Napoleonic complex. I do not think they have to have a reason to bully other than at one instance they disagreed and you dared to question their authority and didn't back down. From that point on anything you type that they don't agree with will be "corrected" with passive aggression, snide belittling and condescending remarks. All very childish and best handled by being adult and not taking it personal. They want you to break the rules so they can castigate and ban you to massage their little egos. Not falling into that trap seems to make them throw a tantrum. These petty little bullies do not have the power to aggravate me but seemingly I have that power over them.

There will be plenty of times that they have something to disagree with, as much of machining is a compromise unless you can afford all the correct tooling for every job. A fellow member posts to ask how to deal with a problem and you suggest a less than conventional method that works from experience with no potential harm and you'd think you advised wearing a tie and a scarf with welding glasses for eye protection while machining. Continue to explain your position and the ludicrous "what if" scenarios come out and they fixate on the "wrong" part of your compromise not the why. Continue to discuss it and you can bet that when it is obvious that the chorus isn't going to pile on they'll just lock the thread with a little parting shot reiterating yet again the "wrong" part of your post. 

Yep I've been there, and pretty well sure I will be again soon. I don't worry too much because the folks on these forums are pretty bright and can judge for themselves. It'll be interesting to see if it stops or continues. Generally standing up to a bully makes it not worth the effort for them.

Steve


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## jumps4 (May 20, 2012)

never in here but in a very popular cnc software forum I go to
it seem like if someone asks a guestion, take me for example, who really knows nothing about what he is talking about... purpose for the question in the first place....
there always seem to be that one person who jumps in answers your question in a manor and terminology
that only the engineer that wrote the software can understand and everyone on your level backs down not wanting to look dumb will not reply to you in laymans terms
they try to hold the crown in their self proclaimed kingdom
 and who doesnt love the answer you should have read the book, that also is written in terms not understood untill you have your masters degree
somewhere the term hobby got lost
learning forums should be for learning not know it alls
steve


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## rickard (May 22, 2012)

Look if any one knows what bullying is, I do. I grew up in REDNEK West Texas and Had LONG Hair. I took several Beatings from RedNeks trying to cut my Hair. I'll be the FIRST one to tell you how that was a Valuable Social Lesson, About the status quo ! So this Sniveling & Whinning because some guy with knowledge you desire was Mean to you on the internet, is Crazy. tell ya what when 3 of these guys Jump you at Home coming with the intent to cut your hair, I'll feel for ya, till then suck it up it's just some one you don't know or will ever meet typing words on a screen. It means nothing 
I appologize but this thread has gone from a thread about how Constructive Criticism can be motivating to OMG they were mean to me


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## HMF (May 22, 2012)

OK, Here is an example: Instead of telling a newbie to "do a search" or "look it up", provide a link  to the information instead.
A picture is worth 1000 words is a true expression- show them by illustration how to do something.
Instead of telling them they don't know (which they know already), _show_ them. 
Don't use complicated terms they don't understand because they are new. Explain everything in simple laypersons terms even if it takes longer.
Don't tell a newbie to take his "toy" lathe and go to another forum, we are pros. Only a maniac would do that.
Do be tolerant with them because hobbies sometimes turn into businesses, and they will remember you helped them.
When people make mistakes, show them where they went wrong, rather than belittling them and gaffawing at their stupidity.

To address some other comments, just because we were bullied more harshly in our lives, doesn't in any way diminish the way others treat people in this hobby online who are new. Bullying isn't as tolerated or acceptable these days as it perhaps was when we were younger, and that is probably a good thing.  Even though these harsh words are just pixels on a screen doesn't minimize their impact- I can tell you that from personal experience having been vilified on other forums. These things hurt, and they leave deep wounds. Once put in writing, insults and personal attacks can never be taken back, and people are hard pressed to forget. All I have to do is search for my name on there forums and there they are- the so called moderators and administrators left them there forever. (Now you know why I delete nasty threads.)

As a practical reality, I see things behind the scenes here that you guys do not see. People don't want to be spoken to harshly on their forums. They want to get information and leave as innocuously as possible. Most people refuse to even participate, or even be known, even on a forum that promises that their words will not be used as weapons against them and their information will not be exploited. Each day, at least one person registers without giving their name or location. They want to be anonymous. They don't want to be known, to participate, and certainly not be insulted. The stigma left by other forums is responsible to a very great degree for this. Why put yourself out there to be made to look and feel stupid because you want to turn a few parts on a lathe- something you wanted to do since you were a kid. The average person DOES care about being bullied, even if they were bullied worse as a kid. There was a thread on another forum with a clique of people who routinely treat others with disdain. The thread, written by an employee of the company that runs the forum, explained to them that, at a show, this person was approached and told that people don't post on that forum for fear of being ridiculed, and the OP asked them to be "gentleman" (in fact, that was the title of the post).  To a man, they all felt that the ways they acted were acceptable and nothing they needed to change or apologize for, because, in their careers as machinists, they had been treated just as harshly. So it was ok to treat others that way. Only it wasn't/isn't. People don't want to put themselves out there because of it. I send out "Please participate" emails, and you would not believe some of the responses I get to a polite request.


Help people to learn, without making them feel stupid or inadequate in their lives. In person, you can throw someone a barb, and because of the tone and facial expressions, the person knows that no real harm was intended. Here on the internet, that doesn't come across as friendly ribbing. It comes across as bullying, or worse, a challenge, and there we go, more hurt pride, hurt feelings, and another closed thread to avoid further damage. That is never acceptable on here, because here, we want to learn WITHOUT the collateral damage you often see elsewhere.

:tiphat:Nelson


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## HMF (Jan 28, 2015)

Bumps this up to top...


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## Rbeckett (Jan 28, 2015)

Nelson, Thanks for the reminder of that great thread!!  I too hve been very lax of late in controlling how I say to thers and this served as a reminder to carefully consider the impact of my words on another before I utter them.  I apologize to you for being undiplomatic and not doing that to begin with because even though I am sorry that it caused animosity between us, I cannot make those words go away and remove the damage I did.   All I can do at this point is amend my behavior and try not to repeat those kinds of activities in the future.  Hope you are well and that the storm didn't make your life to miserable.   There are a lot of folks still without power and heat and I hope they get help soon so they don't have to struggle nearly so hard to just survive.

Bob


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## Billh50 (Jan 28, 2015)

One of Nels posts mentioned mistakes and not putting someone down for it but helping.

One thing I am sure of. Everyone has made a mistake at sometime in their life. So remember that when someone else makes a mistake and just try to help.


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## RVJimD (Jan 28, 2015)

Maybe someone mentioned it, I probably missed it but...

I don't think a lot of people think about how much different it is communicating thru a thread/forum compared to face to face.  It can be really easy to anger somebody in a thread when that isn't what you meant to do.  Also, I think some folks hide behind their keyboard when they get their meanie hat on.

thanks for the post and the site Nelson!

Jim


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## GA Gyro (Feb 7, 2015)

Interesting thread... found it while perusing through the members off topic area.  I am sitting in my office, healing from a head cold... reading odds and ends and learning the origin of this forum.  

IMO online forum etiquette is a lesson we all have to remember and to pro-actively practice.  I used to be on the MOD team at a trades forum, we dealt with guys who worked in the field.  Discussions would move from disagreements to friendly ribbing to picking and putting down to plain outright bullying.  

We had a way to deal with things: 
First comment from the MODS in a specific incident was to remind folks to respect each other, the thread was under review (means every post was being watched in real time by a MOD team), and if anyone felt like they were getting too hot under the collar to:
Push the Keyboard away and come back to the computer later.
For the most part, this worked most of the time.  

We (the MOD team) would discuss in detail and thoroughness, what the infraction was and what the discipline needed to be... the goal was ALWAYS the best interest of the forum and a spirit of everyone feeling welcome and accepted.  Sharing of ideas and learning was stressed; if something (or someone) got in the way of those goals... well the goals needed to be maintained.  

One of the things I liked about this forum, and why I chose it when looking for a hobby machinist forum; Is the sense of respect folks have for each other, and the lack of bullying.  'Back in the day' bullying seemed to be a standard of blue-collar occupations, and Lord knows in my 62 years I have seen my share.  This is for another post... however growing up as the 'red headed step child' (figuratively, not in reality), being told 'you cannot do that', and proving them all wrong... I believe through experience I have a unique understanding of the razor thin line between playful ribbing and criticizing.  IMO better to err on the cautious side. 

Nels and Tony and all the MODS: 
I appreciate what you guys are doing (and have done) here, I like the atmosphere where I can ask an uneducated (maybe even dumb  ) question, knowing the really dumb thing is to not ask and remain in the dark.  The positive feel of this forum is a good thing, I appreciate the effort to keep it this way!  
I recall a thread that got started either during THXgiving or Christmas... and drifted off towards politics.  Somehow, the phrase 'PC' came up... I believe it was Tony Wells who said:  At HM forum, PC stands for polite conversation.  I can go with that, a PC forum is a polite forum where folks respect each other.  

THX Nels, for running this thread and for not deleting it.  Reading through the thread has helped me understand the intentions and goals of HM forums, I am glad I chose this forum to learn and enjoy hobby machining.  If I can be of service to the forum management, please send me a PM... so I can give back a little of what I am getting here...


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## great white (Feb 7, 2015)

It got a little long winded there so I skimmed over some of the posts. 

Criticism offered in a constructive and helpful manner isn't really "criticism" at all. It's teaching. I have all the time in the world for people and thread posts like that. 

Criticism offered in a hurtful or demeaning manner is nothing more that intent to harm and make the speaker feel good about themselves. Those people I just shake my head, dismiss and walk away. Just not worth the time or effort to even engage.....


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## GA Gyro (Feb 7, 2015)

I guess I got a little off topic there... we were talking about constructive or destructive criticism... my apologies for drifting.

I remember when I was growing up; seeing folks who seemed to be born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and folks that had to work for what they had/have.  For some reason I always respected the ones that had to work for it, more than the ones that got it without any effort.  
I remember when I was a kid, someone told me that one needs to be under authority to learn how to be in authority... Of many things I heard when I was young, that one stuck with me.  As a result, I have always tried to think of the other person as well as myself when in a conversation.  

I remember being in high school metal-shop class, already knowing how to weld, however knowing I was supposed to be there to learn.  Teacher would ask me to do something, knowing I would do it right, so they could use it as an example... Now I could have gotten a fat head over that... however in reality I usually learned something, even when I was demonstrating what I already knew.  IMO the point was: I was there to learn just like the rest of them.  And while I may have started out with a little more understanding or knowledge than a few others... I definitely did NOT know it all.  

Looking back, I remember a couple of guys that were just 'not that bright'.  I would get most of my 'required' projects done quickly, then mentor the 'slow' ones through learning.  What I found repeatedly was: They were by no means lacking in smarts... rather they were lacking in self image to stretch out and try.  A little (or sometimes a lot) of encouragement, and they would take a chance... which was usually rewarded with mastering something (or the next step towards mastering something).  
I remember there were few things as rewarding as seeing the light-bulb go on in someone's eyes.  Talk about a legacy to leave when we go through the Pearly Gates... knowing we invested some of our spare time helping folks to gain enough self image to get their lives together.  IMO that is worth more than earning piles of silver and gold.  

Now in the midst of mentoring, sometimes the protegee needs to have their incorrect actions discussed and moved in a better direction.  Seems to me it works better to try this:
Lessee, ya think if we tried something different, we may get better results... 
Rather than:
You moron, you did it WRONG... what is wrong with you.... @*%&$(*&@$%&@!@#&%*$@#(%&@#(!@%

One says: There is a higher goal to reach, lets try to reach it...
The other says: You are a failure because you did not magically know the right way to do it (without any education).  

As I said in the previous post:  I hope HM forum will stay the way Nels and Tony and the MOD staff have it now... where sharing experiences and learning from each other are the goal... and politics does not get in the way.  

THX again to the folks that make HM forum the way it is.


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 7, 2015)

The burden of knowledge falls upon all others differently.

 some take the responsibility seriously.
 others just like to hear themselves talk, without regard for accuracy of their statements.

It is very difficult to argue with facts, opinions and emotions are a different ball game.

Even the most careful words chosen may incite powerful emotions in others,
 sometimes without merit through a perceived slight or perceived act of disrespect. 

my point is that people can get offended whether you want them to or not.

we can only control how we act or react to each and every issue we all face.

as long as the statements and facts presented are the best a person has to offer, and offers them in a way that doesn't degrade others directly, then, i say give a man his voice and let him speak his mind.

I would like to give thanks to the Management of the site for giving us machine junkies a place to learn as well as a place where like minded people come and share the information and knowledge collected.

P.S. Nels,
Don't ever pay attention to a hater, the hater hates because he feels bad himself.
He wins only if you believe his statements against you.
we all have greatness residing within, sadly- some don't believe it.
Chin Up and carry on!!!


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## timvercoe (Feb 8, 2015)

Great thread, thanks all whom have contributed.  I have many thoughts and reactions.  Most of which should probably be left unsaid.  But a few things stick out.  

After reflecting on some of the post I've made, I realize that some of my responses are curt, short and maybe a little harsh.  The other unmentioned site, has certainly lost some excellent creative people.  I still spend a lot of time there because there is so much knowledge........

I also know that writing or texting or or interneting is pretty impersonal, it is easy to mistake a persons intentions when receiving information this way.

My personal motto is "grow a thick skin, and take away what works for you and leave the rest behind."

I also believe that you get what you need at the time, something along the lines of "God answers all prayers, some times he says no."  But really personally sometimes I need the kick, or I don't get moving, but mostly the kind teachers are the ones that I am drawn to and learn the most from.   

I also wanted to take off on the "classes of standard of living" blue collar vs white, big house, nice car etc.  This came up in my life very personally not that long ago.  It involved my kids, my ex and a close friend of hers after her death.  Being  a "hands on kind of guy"  They found me wanting.  The up shot is that because of their prejudice attitudes my relationship with my children was seriously undermined.  So I've had to redefine my self and remind myself that "I am ok with who I am and what I do, and that is all that really matters."

On last thing, I too am a collector of old iron and have lots of old machines that I intend to one day fix and use, it gives me great joy to know that some day...............

Being a collector hoarder has its joys. 

Tim


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## Baithog (Feb 8, 2015)

Tim’s post has encouraged me to finally say something. Nels started this. He apparently had a terrible experience at the keyboard of self aggrandizing bast**ds. They are an unpleasant reality in life, and every board, forum, and group seems to collect them at some time. Many un-moderated usenet groups would become nearly unusable because of them back in the days before forums. I don’t see any of that here, much to the credit of Nels and his helpers. But, we still have some misunderstandings. Such is always going to be the problem with text only communication. Since we have come from bytes of memory to terabytes of capacity, maybe video based forums will take over one day.

I look at this communication problem from a somewhat different perspective. My employment (when I was still doing that) was to create and develop novel new products and processes in silicon. Part of doing that was figuring out why things suddenly didn’t work when a process went from pilot to production. Most of the time it was the human’s interaction, and I got to tell them they were responsible for that million dollars or so of product in the dumpster. I always dreaded that interchange. I worked with really good people. They were smart, engaged people that wanted to make the best product possible, and their first reaction was always negative. It is not easy to hear that you are wrong about something you are so engaged with. But face to face, no matter what your style of communication is, it’s possible to quickly get to the ‘You’re really OK’ point. Not so when the only contact is text.

At least part of the responsibility, and maybe even half of it, rests with the hearer. When we ask for advice or give an opinion, we must expect that it may not be what we anticipated. Some answers will be way wide of the mark. Just remember how much we paid for advice and be glad someone thought enough of us to answer. We need to refrain from assigning emotion to posts. Seldom do things get heated here, and they get cut of quickly when they do. I haven’t seen any of the regular contributors attacking someone’s self worth, so if we start feeling trod upon, maybe we should take a breath and try to read it from a different perspective. I guess I should stop rambling. The real point is that the reader has responsibilities, too. If we are to have a ‘Giving Criticism’ thread, we should also have the corollary ‘Receiving Criticism’ thread.


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 8, 2015)

i did have one other observation:

people generally have stronger emotions tied to things they think they know,
 rather than to things they do know. their actions most times reflect that.


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