# I Guess I Do Not Understand People And/Or Their Decisions.......



## Buffalo21 (Jun 27, 2020)

As the title says, I guess I do not understand people and some of their choices. I just got off the phone with a friend that lives in Wisconsin, I worked with him, when I lived in Milwaukee. He has a small shop, he is deeply into RC planes and boats, mention RC cars and he goes spastic, not for him. During our conversation, me said he shipped out a crate of worn files (close to a hundred files), to someone to be resharpen. I asked the cost of such a venture, he said it was about $65 in shipping (another $65 to get them back) and about $8-$10 a file to resharpen them.

I understand the need for a good file, but I’ve always considered files to be basically a consumable item. I can buy decent files for $10, not great, but workable files. He said his total cost will be in the $900-$1200 range.  I was SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, more likely I was flabbergasted.

My neighbor bought a 2007 Kia Optima for $1700, so far he has put close to another $11,000 into the car over the last 2 yrs. I’m not sure how much the car was new, but I’m sure $13,000 has a large part of the price. I’m not talking about a classic car, were talking about a Kia.

My other neighbor needed a new pool fence, he got a quote to have a completely new fence install, all new wood. He asked about saving a few of the good panels and using them. The fencing contractor said, that type of work, would be time and material, so he decided to go that way.  When they got done the original quote was close to $6800, the total cost by doing it time and material was over $11,000.

Maybe I’m serious cynical, maybe I’m cut from a different bolt of cloth, but I just do not understand people and the decisions they make.


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## mikey (Jun 27, 2020)

Sentience does not imply intelligence.


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## benmychree (Jun 27, 2020)

I think files are sharpened by dipping in acid, should be pretty cheap ---


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## Ulma Doctor (Jun 27, 2020)

there is an electrolytic method as well


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 27, 2020)

benmychree said:


> I think files are sharpened by dipping in acid, should be pretty cheap ---




So I thought, but according to him, the acid is part of it, but they actually, reset the teeth or ridges (?), apparently they say it involves I a bit of manual labor on each file.


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## RJSakowski (Jun 27, 2020)

It is easy to get sucked into the trap of buying a cheap fixer upper and then sinking tons of money into the fixing.  I think that there is something built into our psyche that prevents us from admitting that we made a mistake and keeps us throwing just a bit more money at the project.  

As to the files, there may be some justification in that new files are inferior to the files of several decades ago. However, I think that $10 a file is a bit steep considering that you can have files sharpened here https://boggstool.com/file-division for a fraction of that price.  Sounds like a bit of impulse buying.

Hiring a contractor by time and materials is always a pig in a poke.  Personally, if I do so, it is with the resignation that whatever the final bill is, I will pay it and forget it. If you feel that you got ripped off, make a note to not do business with that individual again.  Years ago, auto mechanics were renowned for jacking up the repair costs.  Probably the main reason why flat rates were developed.  I have hired numerous contractors on a time and materials basis and so far I haven't been burned.  I do try to get a "do not exceed" agreement when I can though.


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## hman (Jun 27, 2020)

Wellll ... I guess I've done pretty much the same at times.  Sometimes it's a rabbit hole - I think it'll be an easy, cheap fix, but it keeps growing and growing.  And by the time I come up for air (ie, take the time to think), there's so much sunk cost that the only sensible alternative is to bull ahead.  Other times, I just want to tinker with it or have an excuse to be creative.  Plus the fact that, being retired (retireded?), my labor rate is $0/hour.  

And it's been said on the forum before, a machinist is somebody who will happily send $30.00 to make a $1.35 part


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 27, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> Hiring a contractor by time and materials is always a pig in a poke.



About 75% of the work I do is Time and Material, basic service calls, being the contractor, I always want/prefer T&M. Hard to lose money doing work at T&M.........


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## BtoVin83 (Jun 27, 2020)

Tell me about it, one time I bought a lathe to save me some money. Do not let my SO know how much I saved


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## kb58 (Jun 27, 2020)

You're reducing emotional decisions down to being solely a cost issue. Many people don't operate that way; many things are subjective endeavors that they may well be very happy with when it's done. Also, where do you draw the line? Many people would say that cable TV is a waste of money, what about that? Or a hobby that doesn't generate an income, or any other activity that you don't agree with. At the end of the day, it's their money, and maybe when they're 85 yrs old and broke, you can say "told 'ya so", but not until then!


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## RJSakowski (Jun 27, 2020)

I have sharpened files with muriatic (hydrochloric) acid.  It basically works by removing metal from the surface at a more or less uniform rate so the radius at the edge of the worn file reduces to zero.  It doesn't correct gouges in the file though. and there can be a slight uneveness to the new surface.  I expect that electrolytic sharpening would be much the same with the exception that there is no need to replenish the spent acid.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 27, 2020)

Who uses a file these days ?


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 27, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> Who uses a file these days ?



I use one almost daily, if I run the lathe or mill, to clean up sharp edges.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 27, 2020)

So I have to wonder ........what are old time un-used Nicholson files worth ? If they have a value , I'll sell bucket loads and retire .


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## Dhal22 (Jun 27, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> About 75% of the work I do is Time and Material, basic service calls, being the contractor, I always want/prefer T&M. Hard to lose money doing work at T&M.........




Can't make any money selling your services T&M.  Flat rate is better.


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## mikey (Jun 27, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> So I have to wonder ........what are old time un-used Nicholson files worth ? If they have a value , I'll sell bucket loads and retire .


 
To those of us who know how decent the old Nicholson files were, they're preferable to the run of the mill or newish Nicholson files. I've heard Nicholson sorted out the issues the newer ones had and the current crop is pretty close to the old ones. I don't know this first hand. 

I have an old 6" Nicholson double cut bastard file that must be over 25 years old and it still cuts well. Draw files smooth as silk and is still dead flat. They don't make them like that anymore. If your files are still in their sleeves and are mint, I bet you could get a few bucks more per file than the current crop.


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## silence dogood (Jun 27, 2020)

For many years I repaired electronic organs.  It would have been pure happiness if I could charge flat rate.  Trouble was there were at least a dozen different brands with scores of different models ranging from tube all the way to large ICs.  Let's take that you turn it on and nothing happens.  Actually had a couple customers who forgot to plug it in.  If it was on a service call. I'll try to give them a break.  If it is a blown amp, it's going to cost. Those were the years (1970s to 1980s) that a new instrument price started at $1000 new, so I made money.  Now, one can buy a throw away for less than $100.


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## Nogoingback (Jun 27, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> Years ago, auto mechanics were renowned for jacking up the repair costs.




Has something changed recently that I'm not aware of?  I don't know about where you live, but the dealers
around here pad the bills with stuff constantly.
As far as flat rates are concerned, experienced mechanics beat the flat rate almost all the time.


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## jocat54 (Jun 28, 2020)

As far as flat rates are concerned, experienced mechanics beat the flat rate almost all the time.

Unless it's warranty work with factory flat rate


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## Aukai (Jun 28, 2020)

So, in 19 posts, I'm the only one who admits to using google to get the definition of " Sentience ",


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## Z2V (Jun 28, 2020)

Aukai said:


> So, in 19 posts, I'm the only one who admits to using google to get the definition of " Sentience ",


OK Aukai, I won’t leave you hanging out there all by yourself. But I did not catch it until your post, then I went back to find it. After finding it I chalked it up to a iOS auto fill. Then, I did google it


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## Bi11Hudson (Jun 28, 2020)

A few years back, my brother asked why I would spend time and money on my Craftsman lathe (101.27440, 12X36) when I could buy one new for the same or *less* from China. I guess that same thought applies to a goodly number of users here. Or, better still, why I sold a 2004 Chev Diesel pickup (DuraMax/Allison) and shortly after bought a "68 Chev C-30 (dualie) with a PTO hydraulic dump bed.

In both cases, *from my perspective*, the thinking was (reasonably) sound. In the case of the lathe, it was a matter of weight. My shop is a wood frame structure, an ex-residential structure ca 1907. Weight was the determining factor. The matter of the pick-up is more "fuzzy". I had a(nother) stroke, leaving me in a wheelchair but still able to walk a short distance with a walker. I don't have need for the diesel pick-up, with it's power or speed, since then. The diesel has 31 microcontrollers, the only one it didn't have was "rear wheel steering". But was 4X4, with all the options, so I guess it's a wash.

But I realized I still wanted a truck available, just in case. The '68 can be rewired and refitted as I see fit. Plus it's a stick shift, which anybody can drive. And a "283" engine, which anybody can fix. I thought. . . 

The bottom line, in both cases, doesn't make much sense to the "average" person. But to me, with my situation and reasoning, it does. Not the most cost effective solution by far, but suits my beliefs and perspectives.

.


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## Dhal22 (Jun 28, 2020)

Aukai said:


> So, in 19 posts, I'm the only one who admits to using google to get the definition of " Sentience ",



I assumed something along the lines of 'personal preference'.  Now to check with Google.

Edit:  close enough..............


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## WCraig (Jun 28, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> ...
> a crate of worn files (close to a hundred files), to someone to be resharpen. I asked the cost of such a venture, he said it was about $65 in shipping (another $65 to get them back) and about $8-$10 a file to resharpen them. ...


Not sure what service your friend was using, but (on another forum), many people have reported great success with Boggs Tools.



			https://boggstool.com/
		


For example, see:





__





						Old Woodworking Machines - Login
					





					www.owwm.org
				




They charge per inch of file length.  They usually use USPS flat rate boxes for shipping so the cost is really reasonable.  They can't resurrect really abused files and won't charge for the sharpening service if the file is too far gone.

I don't have any personal experience as the shipping costs to and from Canada make it uneconomic.

BTW, why does your friend need/use that many files?  Even with various lengths, cuts and profiles, it is hard to imagine needing that many files.

Craig


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 28, 2020)

Dhal22 said:


> Can't make any money selling your services T&M.  Flat rate is better.




I guess it based on the kind of work being done. My owner is a multi-millionaire, due to time and material work, if you charge for every minute, mileage and drive time and every item used, how can you lose money??
Flat rate may work on cars, but not on industrial boiler work, T&M is the only way to go.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 28, 2020)

Lawyers work on T&M. Doctors work on flatrate.  Neither starve.


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## middle.road (Jun 28, 2020)

(26) posts and no one has mentioned Boats yet?
(I going to go look up "Sentience" now...)

@Bi11Hudson, can't fault your logic on the '04 Duramax vs. the '68 C-30.


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## Aukai (Jun 28, 2020)

I sold my 30 ftr....and my 02 Dmax


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## Janderso (Jun 28, 2020)

Remember the show, The Honeymooner, with Jackie Gleason?
Alice said,”your get rich schemes are making us broke”.
I don’t know what that had to do with anything.
How many times do we make a decision we later regret trying to save money.
I don’t know, that 2007 Kia May have been a good investment


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## tweinke (Jun 28, 2020)

jocat54 said:


> As far as flat rates are concerned, experienced mechanics beat the flat rate almost all the time.
> 
> Unless it's warranty work with factory flat rate


I agree with you on that Jocat54!
I am an auto tech in a Ford dealership. This has been a lifelong career for me. Now would anyone like to tell me how I rip you off. I feel insulted that as a blanket techs are ripoff artists. Where I work management would send those types out the door ASAP because they have a reputation to uphold and so do I.


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## projectnut (Jun 28, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> As the title says, I guess I do not understand people and some of their choices. I just got off the phone with a friend that lives in Wisconsin, I worked with him, when I lived in Milwaukee. He has a small shop, he is deeply into RC planes and boats, mention RC cars and he goes spastic, not for him. During our conversation, me said he shipped out a crate of worn files (close to a hundred files), to someone to be resharpen. I asked the cost of such a venture, he said it was about $65 in shipping (another $65 to get them back) and about $8-$10 a file to resharpen them.
> 
> I understand the need for a good file, but I’ve always considered files to be basically a consumable item. I can buy decent files for $10, not great, but workable files. He said his total cost will be in the $900-$1200 range.  I was SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, more likely I was flabbergasted.
> 
> ...



That may not be as outrageous as it sounds on the surface depending on the size and type of files he's sending out.  There are some real "file fanatics" over on another board.  They are into the extremely high end, often imported files.  It's not unusual to hear them talk about specific Swiss pattern and other types of files that cost upward of $100.00 per unit.  It might be justified, or another form of snobbery.  Personally I treat files as consumables, and rarely pay more than $10.00 to $15.00 per unit.  Of course prices might have changed drastically in the last few months.  I just got a shocker when looking at a set of milling clamps.  The ones I got for $45.00 and free shipping in January are now selling for $120.00 and $29.00 shipping.


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## hman (Jun 28, 2020)

I knew what sentience means, but only because I'm a lifelong science fiction fan.


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## Dhal22 (Jun 28, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> I guess it based on the kind of work being done. My owner is a multi-millionaire, due to time and material work, if you charge for every minute, mileage and drive time and every item used, how can you lose money??
> Flat rate may work on cars, but not on industrial boiler work, T&M is the only way to go.




Ha,  I'm the owner but not a multi millionaire.   We are flat rate (plumbing) and I do ok.


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## Nogoingback (Jun 28, 2020)

tweinke said:


> I agree with you on that Jocat54!
> I am an auto tech in a Ford dealership. This has been a lifelong career for me. Now would anyone like to tell me how I rip you off. I feel insulted that as a blanket techs are ripoff artists. Where I work management would send those types out the door ASAP because they have a reputation to uphold and so do I.




Nobody has accused you of doing anything.  However, I'm sure you're aware that not all auto repair shops are honest.  We used to take our
Honda to a dealer that was constantly trying to add stuff to the service bill that either wasn't needed or authorized. 
I'm fully aware that there are plenty of honest shops out there, but everyone knows this is not an
industry with a squeaky clean reputation. 

As far as the flat rate I don't think that's a ripoff, it's just how it's done.


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## Flyinfool (Jun 28, 2020)

Like the new car dealer trying to tell me that I can not put air in the tires to raise the pressure 2 PSI, it must be Nitrogen at an additional cost of $30 added to the oil change. It was then explained to me that nitrogen is a rare gas and that is why it is so expensive. Or $300 to activate a feature that was installed at the factory so I already paid for when I bought it. Todd, I am not saying you or your dealership would do things like this. But I called around to several local dealerships and got the same prices and same BS story.


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## brino (Jun 28, 2020)

Flyinfool said:


> It was then explained to me that nitrogen is a rare gas



Total BS!


Send 'em back to high-school chemistry class!

-brino


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## savarin (Jun 28, 2020)

The BS statement thats used here is that the synthetic oil as used in my car only has a shelf life of 6 months which is why it has to be changed very often.
So No, not all establishments are honest.


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## middle.road (Jun 28, 2020)

tweinke said:


> I agree with you on that Jocat54!
> I am an auto tech in a Ford dealership. This has been a lifelong career for me. Now would anyone like to tell me how I rip you off. I feel insulted that as a blanket techs are ripoff artists. Where I work management would send those types out the door ASAP because they have a reputation to uphold and so do I.


You do not.
It is NOT the guys in the shop doing the work, it is management. The turkeys at the counter so to say.
I have had experience with that going all the way back to the mid '70s. No honor or scruples at all. 
And if you are a single female bringing your vehicle in, then the problems with your vehicle go up exponentially. 
This is across the board, dealerships to franchise 'Firestone' type shops, to local repair shops.


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## savarin (Jun 28, 2020)

And another one...
Why does my model vehicle require servicing every 6 months or x000kms which ever comes first whilst in another country the exact same model requires its service every 12 months?
Sounds like B/S to me.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 28, 2020)

Seem a lot of you are blaming the mechanics for the crap the marketing department and unscrupulous a-holes (but I repeat myself) at the front counter do.


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## brino (Jun 28, 2020)

savarin said:


> Why does my model vehicle require servicing every 6 months or x000kms which ever comes first whilst in another country the exact same model requires its service every 12 months?



Hmmmmm, it must be that the Southern hemisphere turns twice as fast, right?
-brino


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 28, 2020)

savarin said:


> And another one...
> Why does my model vehicle require servicing every 6 months or x000kms which ever comes first whilst in another country the exact same model requires its service every 12 months?
> Sounds like B/S to me.



enraged platypus(s) (platypi ?)


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## savarin (Jun 28, 2020)

When we first came here in 87 the common cause of everything was 
Tough Aussie conditions mate.
and the cause of the high cost of everything was 
Transport mate, its a big country.


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## savarin (Jun 28, 2020)

There are a/holes in every trade or business the same as there are awesome tradies, businesses and people.
The trouble is we tend to only remember the baddies and tar everyone within that sector with the same brush.
I had a plumber acquaintance many years ago who said they all leave the metal shavings in the bottom of the galvanised water tanks as they will rust and cause holes which means work for future plumbers.
He was serious.
In my book a gold plated A/hole


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## Nogoingback (Jun 29, 2020)

RandyWilson said:


> Seem a lot of you are blaming the mechanics for the crap the marketing department and unscrupulous a-holes (but I repeat myself) at the front counter do.



I don't see where anyone has specifically blamed mechanics here.  At dealerships, and many small independent shops, the mechanics presumably do whatever
is on the work order, or what their boss tells them to do.  In really small shops the boss may be the mechanic.
I think the problem is that virtually everyone that owns  a car has had, and knows people that have had problems with
auto repair.  There are plenty of honest folks in the business, but there is a lot of scope for dishonesty, particularly with people that know nothing about cars.  In my experience, the large dealerships can go either way: some are fine and some I wouldn't trust to give me the time of day.  Most of the mechanics I've gotten to know were pretty straight shooters.


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## uncle harry (Jun 29, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> I have sharpened files with muriatic (hydrochloric) acid.  It basically works by removing metal from the surface at a more or less uniform rate so the radius at the edge of the worn file reduces to zero.  It doesn't correct gouges in the file though. and there can be a slight uneveness to the new surface.  I expect that electrolytic sharpening would be much the same with the exception that there is no need to replenish the spent acid.



I wonder about electrolytic sharpening as well. I do know about elecropolishing which rounds off sharp edges. It might be possible on a polarity basis.


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## MikeWi (Jun 29, 2020)

I find it funny how we're arguing over who is dishonest, like there aren't dishonest examples both sides of the fence! Just have to find the place where both sides are honest that's all.  I've found two so far, and I'm 59 so... 

I used to be lead sales at a sears auto center, and I was constantly having to reign back a couple of the "mechanics" (and the quotes are there for a reason) for inflating the work estimates because they got paid based on the work they did. Who knows what they got away with when I wasn't there, but we eventually got rid of them. Then there was the district manager who insisted we all sell chrome sleeved valve stems to our customers using any excuse necessary because we made more money off them. No one has an exclusive license to be a greedy !@#@


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## ericc (Jun 29, 2020)

A good file is a pleasure to use.  Some of my friends use Boggs Tool and report good results.  I've been meaning to try them out, but every time I have a tired file, some other use comes along.  One time, I was working on a one piece hardy tool.  I was having a really hard time starting the taper.  An expert smith looked over at me and said that I was getting fish lips.  That's when the metal folds over the tip and causes a cold shut because it is worked the wrong direction with too gentle of blows.  She said it was due to inexperience.  I know that the right way to fix this is to cut the lips off or start over.  I just kept hammering, and the fish lips got worse.  She said that it would crack if I left the cold shut.  So I pulled out an old file and a can of borax, and said "time to feed the fish!".  With a high carbon bit welded in the split, it worked great.  She was not impressed.  I just gave another file to a fellow smith to make Viking knives.  You can also use them hot when they are not useful for bench work.


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## housedad (Jun 29, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> Who uses a file these days ?


Never ask this of a custom gunsmith.    You will get a full dissertation on the history, use, care, and choice of files.  They are his bread and butter.

How do I know?  I was a gunsmith for a couple of decades...


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## westerner (Jun 29, 2020)

Nogoingback said:


> There are plenty of honest folks in the business, but there is a lot of scope for dishonesty, particularly with people that know nothing about cars.


Or furnaces, or A/C units, or roofing, or painting, or boilers, or carpet, or General Contracting, or real estate, or medicine, or dentistry, or any number of services we all need that we have no experience in. Mechanics get a bad rap simply because they are in higher demand and greater contact with the majority of the populace. 

I am about to retire from the Mechanic trade, and intend to supplement my retirement income with some more tinkering on the side with customers I have a decades long history with.  They would take great exception to the notion that mechanics are dishonest theives.


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## dpb (Jun 30, 2020)

Since this thread has gone sideways, I’ll throw my peeve in here:
I’m perfectly happy to pay for skill, and time.  Do not tell me that the repair is $25 + parts, and then charge me 10x the Amazon price for the EXACT part.  Now I don’t trust you, and will never do business with you again.  If you had said $100, plus parts, and charged me, say, 0-50% more than Amazon, we’d still be friends. The dollar amount isn’t the problem.  The trickery is the problem. This was an AC repair.  The part was a capacitor.  The work took 10 minutes. The company is owned by an acquaintance.


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## jrkorman (Jun 30, 2020)

Aukai said:


> So, in 19 posts, I'm the only one who admits to using google to get the definition of " Sentience ",


I'm a SciFi reader, had to look that word up over 50 years ago when I was a kid!


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## C-Bag (Jul 2, 2020)

It is a really deep question why people do what they do. Funny how it’s intersected with mechanics because as a wrench twister it was always baffling why somebody would pour more $$ into some car than it was worth. To me most modern cars were “consumables” because sooner or later you couldn’t get some vital electronic part or worst of all get some ghost in the machine electronic bug that couldn’t be excised. Cars were always a tool for cheap reliable transportation, so I never got the status/emotional attachment.
Emotions play more of a role in these things than one can comprehend and then no amount of rationale can be applied. I’ve been reading “Deep Survival“ about who survives and what the mental processes and how emotions and brain function all collide and cause all kinds of warping of judgement.


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## Nogoingback (Jul 2, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> It is a really deep question why people do what they do. Funny how it’s intersected with mechanics because as a wrench twister it was always baffling why somebody would pour more $$ into some car than it was worth. To me most modern cars were “consumables” because sooner or later you couldn’t get some vital electronic part or worst of all get some ghost in the machine electronic bug that couldn’t be excised. Cars were always a tool for cheap reliable transportation, so I never got the status/emotional attachment.
> Emotions play more of a role in these things than one can comprehend and then no amount of rationale can be applied. I’ve been reading “Deep Survival“ about who survives and what the mental processes and how emotions and brain function all collide and cause all kinds of warping of judgement.




It's simple.  Humans are not rational creatures.  None of us is completely rational or logical, and some aren't even remotely logical. (I have in in-law like that...)  Car purchases are high on the list of emotional actions for most people.


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## C-Bag (Jul 2, 2020)

This book really points out how all the factors of being human and the interplay between emotions and the parts of the brain can skew and fog perceptions. All of us have gotten “I want it fever” where a machine, car, house, whatever overrides logic and we just gotta have it! When I’ve done that  buyers remorse has always followed. This book does a good job of explaining the mechanism of how certain decisions to do stuff that we wouldn’t do normally gets overridden. All through the context of accidents by talking to the survivors and experts.

There are tons of different stories but can you imagine being a 17yrd girl in ‘60 being on a flight and lightening strikes the plane and it breaks up and she falls into the Amazon? She walks out 11 days and survives.

It has always been way too complicated for me because I didn’t have all the info I guess. When it comes to tools I’m way more impulsive than I’d like to believe. I wonder if the guy with files the OP mentioned just absolutely could not part with the old files. It is true they don’t make anything like they used to.


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## RJSakowski (Jul 3, 2020)

Back when I was in college, I worked a summer job at a filling station in the middle of nowhere.  Most of our customers were people going to and from their summer vacation.  we were a full service station in those days and in addition to filling the tank, would clean the windows and check the oil and radiator.  

The manager of the the station had a radiator pressure tester and would pump it up and sadly inform the customer that they needed a new radiator cap and if they didn't buy on then and there, they were likely to have a catastrophic failure in some remote location, requiring an expensive tow.  He had more radiator caps in store then the NAPA dealer.

Another mechanic in town had the nickname of Ball Joint Charley.  He had a sturdy iron bar that he would insert into the suspension and pry with it.  He would show the customer how much play there was and convince them that they were driving a death trap and it would be criminal to leave without replacing the ball joints.


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## savarin (Jul 3, 2020)

Its not just the so called trades either.
We had a surgeon who was known as the butcher. Everyone knew it, all the other doctors knew it but nothing was admitted until he retired whereupon the so called "Profession" gave a little cheer.


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