# Purchasing First Vertical Mill...decisions!



## Bnixon (Dec 29, 2015)

I am looking at the Precision Matthews PM-940M-PDF with hardened table and way with the ES-12 DRO.

This will be a general use mill as I make all kinds of stuff! There have been so many times I was in the middle of a project and needed some fixture, part or the ability to mill with precision and had to rig up a less than ideal workaround. 

I will mainly be working aluminum and mild steel. I do not plan to convert to CNC just keep it manual. I have a CNC router and if I need a CNC mill I will just get another to dedicate it. Most of what I do is faster to do manually anyway.

I wanted to get something that will be large enough and heavy enough to do most things but not be 2000lbs.

Budget is about $5k to the door. Are there any other mills I should be looking at?

Thanks for helping out a noob!

Brandon


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## Bob Korves (Dec 29, 2015)

Nothing at all against the PM machines, but I would be looking at good used mills as well.  You can save a bunch of money that you can use for the tooling that you will also need.  You do need to know a dog from a doll when you are looking at used machines.  If you are totally a noob, and do not have someone experienced to help you, new might be smarter...


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## Bray D (Dec 29, 2015)

I would be looking pretty hard at the PM-836 as well. I have a 932M and wish I had a knee mill at times. More accurate Z movements and overall a more rigid machine. A bit more initial cost, but I think you'd be happier in the long run. 

I've never seen or operated one in person, so that that for what it's worth. 

http://www.amazon.com/PM-836-Milling-Machine-Clamp-Collet/dp/B00P89RYFW


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## kingmt01 (Dec 29, 2015)

I have a small HF knee mill that I like but it was just almost always to small so I upgraded to a 10x54 knee mill. I think the HF one was around $2K & the 10x54 from Enco was around $6.5K


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## abrace (Dec 29, 2015)

I am looking at the PM-932M/PM-940M as well, along with the Grizzly G0761 and G-762s.

This whole mill purchase is analysis paralysis for me.


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## mksj (Dec 29, 2015)

Also worth reading: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm836s-pm450g.36559/

I would say a lot comes down to what you need, how big you want to go and what you think your current and future needs will be. May also be your timelines and what is in stock, and how long you are willing to wait.  At 5K, I also think that the Grizzly  G0796 with a 9x49" vertical mill is a serious contender if you need something big and can handle the size/weight of the machine. It comes with DRO, powered down feed, X feed, etc. and is right at your budget delivered to your front door. A lot of machine for the price. The only other thought would be the PM935TS (belt version) in a 3 phase and adding a VFD ($150-200), would be about 5.5K and then shipping. Close enough that I would include it in the short list, and would be my first choice based on others experiences/comments with the machine. I just think if you do not need a big mill, that this model is a very manageable size and offers quality of more expensive knee mills.  You may be able to pick up a used full sized knee, but if it is in decent shape and don't want to take months fixing it, it may run you more $ (but worth looking).
https://www.grizzly.com/products/9-X-49-Vertical-Mill-with-Power-Feed-and-DRO/G0796
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-935HighPrecisionMills.html


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## Bnixon (Dec 31, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies! I will look into the G0796. That one looks real interesting. It meets my budget and seems to have the table size and options I was looking for...I just wonder how long it will take to get it as it is not in stock.

What is the difference in the shop floor space needed between the PM-940M and the G0796? I have a pretty tight shop and want to make sure It is not much bigger that the PM.

As far as the used mills go, I really don't want to get into a referb job with my first mill. I want to start making parts. I am tired of spending all my time working on my machines and not building stuff...can you say home built CNC router! Seems like I have spent more time building, trouble shooting, improving, repairing it than actually using it on productive work!

Thanks again for all the feedback and I am still open for suggestions!


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## Bnixon (Jan 18, 2016)

Well I pulled the trigger on a full size knee mill. PM-950S. Matt was awesome to work with and this machine seemed to stack up better than the grizzly G0796. Coming with 3 axis DRO and both x and y feed. 

It is a bigger machine than I was originally looking at due to budget constraints. But after a call to Matt this one was right in the price range I was trying to stay. I have never heard anyone say that they wish they had bought a smaller mill! So this should fill my needs for a lifetime. 

Thanks for all of the feedback from you guys. particularly mksj for the heads up on the grizzly. This got me to asking questions and I would not have found the PM-950 otherwise. 

Thanks again! Now the long wait...12 weeks! Now trying to figure out what tooling I should start with. I have a Kurt vise coming with the mill and I have picked up a TE-CO clamp set. Suggestions are valued! I don't want to buy a bunch of stuff I won't really use. Just basic tooling and setup tools.


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## joshua43214 (Jan 18, 2016)

Get an assortment of import end mills. End mills are very easy to ruin during the learning curve. Once you have figured out the easy ways to kill a mill, you can get some nicer ones and learn the finer points of mill killing.

Get an import set of fly-cutter holders. I am sure there is something special about the more expensive ones that make them worth the cost, but I have no idea what it is. Flycutters will be your go-to tool for stock removal. They cost almost nothing to use, and run much cooler. You can run inserts in them, but the HSS bits are very easy to sharpen and more forgiving that lathe bits.

There are a number of good options for indicator mounting. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Look through the Enco and MSC catalogues, and watch some YouTube. Buy what seems to make sense to you. I have a Noga that fits into a collet, it works pretty well.
Don't buy a tramming aid. They are really trendy right now, resist the peer pressure. You can make one very easily, and it will make a nice project to get to know your mill a bit. Honestly though, sweeping works just as well. I have had two new indicators sitting on the shelf waiting to get turned into a tramming aid for half a year - pretty low priority.

After experiencing a lot of repeatability issues with my Fowler edge finders, I purchased a used Starrett wobbler set. I have found the wobbler to be far more repeatable than the Fowler edge finder. YMMV. The wobbler takes a bit more time since you have to recenter the tip (never use finger for this), but it also is more flexible. If you want an edge finder, I suggest sticking with B&S or Starrett.

If you want a boring head. I also suggest paying up the big bucks for the Criterion. They are expensive, but this is one place to pay the difference.
Likewise, don't skimp on the drill chuck and arbor.

Obviously you need some parallels to go with the vise. I have two import sets, a narrow and a standard. The narrow ones get 99% of the use.
Don't forget a bolt set for the vise, the Kurt does not come with them.

Find out from Matt what oil the head uses (assuming it has gears in it, it is probably iso68 or NAPA AW68), and have enough on hand to change the oil when it arrives. Never trust the stuff that comes in a Chinese machine, just replace it.
Vactra 2 way oil for the ways is what most of us have and love.


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## T Bredehoft (Jan 19, 2016)

End Mills.  I found I could search eBay for 'Buy it Now' and 'Free Shipping' and find (for instance) ten TiN coated HSS 5/16 single end four flute endmills for something in the neighborhood of $12.00. I've had my PM25 since June. I'm still on the first one, it's still sharp, got nine more to use after it dies. I got something like 28 3/16 2 and four flute, single and double end HSS endmills for $15.00 or so. I'll never run out of them. And then there are the 2mm solid carbide cutters, used, in packages of 10 for about $5.00. 
I also found a 3 insert R8 shanked cutter 1 1/2" diameter which I use for metal removal and finish. Granted, your mill is bigger/heavier than mine (I'm jealous, but I bought all I could afford) you can use somewhat larger cutters, perhaps a 3" face mill and up to 3/4 endmills, but they start to get expensive.


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## kingmt01 (Jan 19, 2016)

Congrats


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## brav65 (Jan 19, 2016)

My advice would to buy every cool looking piece of tooling you can lay your hands on because whoever dies with the most tools win!


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## kingmt01 (Jan 19, 2016)

I thought who ever got the tools after the guy died wins.



brav65 said:


> My advice would to buy every cool looking piece of tooling you can lay your hands on because whoever dies with the most tools win!


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## zmotorsports (Jan 19, 2016)

Bnixon said:


> Well I pulled the trigger on a full size knee mill. PM-950S. Matt was awesome to work with and this machine seemed to stack up better than the grizzly G0796. Coming with 3 axis DRO and both x and y feed.
> 
> It is a bigger machine than I was originally looking at due to budget constraints. But after a call to Matt this one was right in the price range I was trying to stay. I have never heard anyone say that they wish they had bought a smaller mill! So this should fill my needs for a lifetime.
> 
> ...



Congrats on the new mill.  Just out of curiosity, what are the specs on the PM-950S?  I am not familiar with that one from Matt.

Mike.


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## Bnixon (Jan 20, 2016)

Here are the specs I got from Matt










Thanks for all the feedback on tooling. I am starting to make my list!


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## kingmt01 (Jan 20, 2016)

That's a big mill. Almost as big as mine.

One sheet says it has a 5 year warranty the other two only say 3 years.


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## zmotorsports (Jan 20, 2016)

That's a fullsize BP clone by the looks of it.  It also appears that the head is made in Taiwan so I am assuming the casting is Chinese manufatured?

Would like to see some pics of it as this must be a new mill Matt is carrying.

Mike.


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## Bnixon (Jan 21, 2016)

I believe it is new and yes he said the casting my is in China but with higher quality materials and process than the Grizzly. And yes it is a full size BP clone 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bnixon (Jun 21, 2016)

Well after a long wait my mill finally arrived! Have uncrated it and got it on it's new base. I have done the initial wipe down and am waiting on my oil to arrive for my oiler. I am hoping to start tramming it in this next weekend.

I am sure I will have a ton of questions since this is my first mill and venture into machining in general?




View attachment 131126





View attachment 131127


I need to get a pic of it on its new steel base. I will try and get some more pics tonight.


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## dlane (Jun 21, 2016)

Your pics are red x's


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## Steve Shannon (Jun 21, 2016)

Beginning about 6/5/16 pictures posted using the camera icon in Tapatalk no longer appear correctly. Those who use Tapatalk to post should use the paper clip icon which is at the bottom center in the line of icons.




 Steve Shannon


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## Bnixon (Jun 21, 2016)

Not sure why. Posted on tap talk. I can see them fine. I will have to check on a PC.

Edit: ok thanks for the work around. I did not know of the tap talk issue! I have added as attachments.


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## 4GSR (Jun 22, 2016)

Your attachments are still not working.  Do it on your computer not thru Tapatalk.


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## TakeDeadAim (Jul 7, 2016)

You will be so happy with the PM machine.  Matt is great to work with.  I had a machine on order wth Griz for months with promises of new delivery dates every few weeks. A friend gave me Matt's number; one phone call later and not only did I have a better mill on the way but he made me a great deal on the VFD because he was out of single phase units.  I am very happy with it from the crate it was shipped in to the way it is built and finished, and as a side note two years later Griz has not shipped a single one of those machines, yet they were still in the last sale flyer I got!


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