# Need help- Given some CNC stuff and I have NO clue



## silverforgestudio (Mar 5, 2018)

Was chatting with a scrapper local to me who I buy aluminum from for casting yesterday... mentioned I wanted to "get into" CNC stuff but would have to probably build it...(Why not- I have a foundry, naievty and enough super powered ignorance to tackle anything!)

Well today he dropped off 3 boxes- said he got them from a warehouse and didnt have the heart to scrap them... And I could keep them...

Looking for help as I have NO clue what to do with these things- are they even useable?

1- Galil DMC 1580 still in the box with a mfg date of 2004

2- Two "Advanced Motion Controls" Brushless servo amplifiers

3- One "Advanced Motion Controls" Digiflex digital servo drive

I as well now am the proud owner of a box of various servos- multiple makers and sizes (I am assuming from the same place.)

SO the big question is was I just handed a CNC kit or will this thing be a Frankenstein of calamity and mis-matched thingees?

The Galil controller info says up to 8 axis control- I only know of 4... According to one auction site the Galil is $1300-$1700 USD (YIKES!) so I know its still used

Just need a bit of a hand in learning what the heck I just got- and if I need to keep, sell, hold, pass or scrap it before I go down the CNC rabbit hole...

Seriously- Any help appreciated!

Thanks in advance! Pics to follow when I get home!


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## spumco (Mar 5, 2018)

You were handed _parts_ of a CNC kit for black-belts.

The Galil is a high-end motion controller.  It can control up to 8 axes (the '8' in the 1580).  It can be programmed to run 'stand-alone' as it has on-board memory, but for your proposed application it can interface with a PC and motion control software.  As to 8 axis - think robotics or CNC turning centers with twin turrets and a sub-spindle.  You can get to 8 or more axis pretty quickly.  Here's a link to the legacy documentation:

http://www.galilmc.com/motion-controllers/prior-generation/dmc-10x0dmc-15x0#info=0

_*Strongly*_ suggest you PM Jim Dawson on this forum as I believe he's written CNC software for Galil products and may have some insight as to whether that 1580 is suitable for a beginner to fiddle with.

Other stuff (amplifiers & servo motors) - need more info.  See if you can find part or model numbers on anything.  Make a list and throw it up here.  Sometimes stuff is compatible even if they aren't the same brand - just needs fiddling.  The hive mind can probably help you decipher motor and amplifier codes - but that's something you should be trying to do yourself if you want to learn "CNC" stuff.  Find the MFGR on the drive or motor, and internet search the model number.  Get some datasheets and print them out and stick them with each device.  You'll start learning what all the Greek terms are, and it'll help later if you try to unload them on Ebay or something.

You've just inherited Bugatti parts.  Sadly, you don't have a Bugatti to put them on quite yet.  You may, after some consultation and soul searching, decide to sell everything to fund a solid - but simpler - CNC dingus for the moment.  If you want to keep the stuff and give it a go, plan on the next couple of years hiding in the basement glued to the internet cramming your brain with everything from PID loops to linear rails to EMI shielding.

Year three is figuring out how to actually machine stuff.

Actually, what you have is a staggeringly good start to taking a perfectly good industrial CNC mill or lathe with a dead or seriously obsolete control system and retrofitting a new motion control system.  Buy an old 1980's or 90's VMC with dodgy/dead electronics and cram your stuff in it.


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## JimDawson (Mar 5, 2018)

You got quite a haul there.  I just looked up the current price of that DMC-1580....$3995.  You can actually still buy them new, but they are about 2 generations out of date (early 90's), but back in the day it was top of the line.  Documentation is available for download from Galil.  The PC communication with the controller is RS232 or RS422.  The latest Galil software and Win7/10 might communicate with the controller, not sure about that.  If not, you might have to use WinXP or earlier and the older drivers to talk to it.  The older comm drivers are still available for download.

As @spumco says, look up the data sheets for the servo drives.  They should be compatible with the Galil controller.  Now you just need some compatible motors to run and you almost have a complete system.


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 5, 2018)

JimDawson said:


> You got quite a haul there.  I just looked up the current price of that DMC-1580....$3995.  You can actually still buy them new, but they are about 2 generations out of date (early 90's),



OK Jim- thanks- the DMC I have has a sticker that says "DMC-1580-2004"




As for the paperwork- I will be downloading a LOT it seems- HA! 





spumco said:


> You were handed _parts_ of a CNC kit for black-belts.



Ummmm- yup... looks like I need to get it in gear or get rid of it... 

_*


spumco said:



			Strongly
		
Click to expand...

*_


spumco said:


> suggest you PM Jim Dawson on this forum as I believe he's written CNC software for Galil products and may have some insight as to whether that 1580 is suitable for a beginner to fiddle with.



Jim jumped in thank goodness- but your suggestion was well met my friend- the "fiddle with" is right- Im not interested in lighting my hair on fire or jumping into the deep end without knowing what Im doing... or destroying it with a ham-handed hammer  ummm- adjustment. (Im an analog guy trying to catch up- think Flinstones meets Jetsons')



spumco said:


> Other stuff (amplifiers & servo motors) - need more info.  See if you can find part or model numbers on anything.  Make a list and throw it up here..



As for part numbers-Here is the Digital Servo Drive-  https://dpk3n3gg92jwt.cloudfront.net/domains/amc/pdf/AMC_Datasheet_DQ111EE40A8BDC.pdf 




And here is the Servo Amplifier: https://dpk3n3gg92jwt.cloudfront.net/domains/amc/pdf/AMC_Datasheet_BE25A20.pdf 






spumco said:


> plan on the next couple of years hiding in the basement glued to the internet cramming your brain with everything from PID loops to linear rails to EMI shielding.



Although I like the idea of having a high end controller- This I will have to seriously consider as I am trying to get multiple things done- and doesnt sound like this can be done "part-time" if I'm gonna do it- besides- *the bigger question now is what IS missing and what will it cost to complete this Bugatti???*



spumco said:


> Buy an old 1980's or 90's VMC with dodgy/dead electronics and cram your stuff in it.



OK- What is a VMC? 

Thanks for the help and stay tuned!

Jim- would you mind a PM or chat about the functionality and testing of this little monster?


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## JimDawson (Mar 6, 2018)

We can communicate any way you want.  It might be best here, that way everybody can see the progress and hopefully this will be an educational experience for all.

I'm surprised they anybody was ordering those in 2004, they were superseded by the 20x0 series mid 90's.  Must have  been a replacement for an existing system.  Anyway, should be a fun project learning how to make use of it.

You'll need to download the drivers for your computer, what you download depends on your operating system.  Let me know what computer you are using and I'll help you through that.  While you're at it may as well get the documentation also.  Both the command reference and the manual.  Then the first order of business is to plug it in and see if it works, takes a standard computer cord.  Then get communications established, you'll need a computer with a serial port or a USB-serial adaptor.  That should keep you busy for about an hour or so. 

The drive you show should work fine, at some point you'll need a motor to connect to the drive.  I need to do a little reading, but I think that drive will run either a BLDC or a brushed DC servo motor.  The Galil will also run stepper motor system if you want to go that route.

This should be fun


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## spumco (Mar 6, 2018)

The first one appears to be a standard servo amplifier.  Supplied with up to 80VDC from a power supply.  20A unit can drive a big-ish motor.

The second one, as Jim indicates, is a BLDC motor driver.  Brushless DC motor (think big DC motor with a computer telling it  how to spin instead of some brushes riding on a commutator)

I just happen to have a 3HP (ish) BLDC motor with a 5kRPM top end suitable for a smaller mill and no driver to go with it.  Your driver indicates it can use hall sensors for commutation (timing device to make the motor spin properly) - pretty standard for BLDC motors.  You decide to go down this path and I've got a spindle motor for you...

VMC - Vertical Machining Center.  "CNC Mill" generally refers to, in hobby-level speak, a 3 or 4 axis mill with no major frills.  A VMC refers to one of the big, professional CNC mills that have an automatic tool changer and a full enclosure, and some sort of industrial control system (Fanuc, Siemens, etc.).  Hobby mills, with some exceptions, generally are controlled with a Windows or Linux PC.  There are obviously exceptions to everything, but VMC means big heavy box with a powerful mill inside.  Thousands of pounds, requiring 3-phase electricity.

Bigger questions:

What do you want to accomplish?  Make stuff with a mill or lathe?  What kind of stuff? How big, and made of what material?

Or learn about electronics and motion control?


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## JimDawson (Mar 6, 2018)

spumco said:


> Bigger questions:
> 
> What do you want to accomplish? Make stuff with a mill or lathe? What kind of stuff? How big, and made of what material?
> 
> Or learn about electronics and motion control?



Or both


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 6, 2018)

JimDawson said:


> We can communicate any way you want.  It might be best here, that way everybody can see the progress and hopefully this will be an educational experience for all.



Thank you Jim. I may wind up parting this thing out if Im not able to handle its "robust-ness" or the learning curve so the biggest issue is testing it to see where I can learn/start from or decide its TOO much machine (Bugatti's arent made for the kiddie rides!)



JimDawson said:


> The drive you show should work fine, at some point you'll need a motor to connect to the drive.  I need to do a little reading, but I think that drive will run either a BLDC or a brushed DC servo motor.  The Galil will also run stepper motor system if you want to go that route.



I was also given a box of servos- it was a total mix and match- Elcom was the one that stuck out... but these guys are LITTLE compared to what this Galil was supposed to be able to handle... makes me think these were in the same place- not the same machine (but I have NO idea as they were all from "Some warehouse I cleaned out" per the scrapper)



JimDawson said:


> This should be fun



HA! It will be- I honestly thought they would be scrap (may still be if they are shorted out or dont work)... and I am always looking for a project (to go with the 30-40 OTHER projects that are around the shop)... Seriously- CNC has been an interest for me and I think this may be a good push/nudge to get it in gear. I am looking forward to this.




spumco said:


> I just happen to have a 3HP (ish) BLDC motor with a 5kRPM top end suitable for a smaller mill and no driver to go with it.  Your driver indicates it can use hall sensors for commutation (timing device to make the motor spin properly) - pretty standard for BLDC motors.  You decide to go down this path and I've got a spindle motor for you...



Thanks- as this little monster grows I may take you up on that- but be advised- you're offering more Bugatti parts to a 3-year old- Let me catch up a bit and when we get to the working end (If it makes it that far) we can have that conversation... But it is DEFINITELY appreciated!





spumco said:


> VMC - Vertical Machining Center....   VMC means *big heavy box with a powerful mill inside.  Thousands of pounds, requiring 3-phase electricity*.


Yeah... about that.... not in my little garage- My city would LOVE to bring an inspector in when I blow the block transformer... HA! Not allowed to have 3 phase in my residental area... SAD- but true... I do have a VFD Im getting ready to learn about for a surface grinder... but no joy on the 3-phase. Im BARELY a hobby-ist (3-yr old, 2 jobs, SWMBO, Honey-do's and a demanding cat!) That being said: I love my garage time and the hobby of making things in silver and iron are fun!



spumco said:


> Bigger questions: What do you want to accomplish?


-Im looking to learn a skillset that will put me into position to do "gig" work within 3-5 years for others (hey if youre gonna do it for yourself- may as well learn it well enough to do it for others! In all honesty I want to build a hobby and make things for folks to use.



spumco said:


> Make stuff with a mill or lathe?


-Mill most definitely- But like all things- Im gonna have to learn those as well (Bought a Rockwell lathe that needs some love before I can play/learn/grow) and no Mill yet.



spumco said:


> What kind of stuff?


My main hobbies: Knifemaking, Jewelry (casting and fabrication), Foundrywork (aluminum through Bronze). 
-Believe it or not- carving wax models for investment casting so jewelry size... up to patterns for my foundry (largest pour to date is a 15 pound aluminum house plaque and most complex was a cored antique water-jacket for an older Farm-All) So honestly I cannot say what my MAIN goal is.... My wild ignorant mind wanted to know if it was an 8 axis couldnt that be TWO 4-axis machines? (one for small and one for large?)



spumco said:


> How big, and made of what material?


-Materials for casting in silver are waxes- microcrystalline so not very hard- for foundry work I think Corian and plywood are my targets- Aluminum and ferrous metals for the knifemaking and wood and plastics as well.



spumco said:


> Or learn about electronics and motion control?


I think they are BOTH part of the mix now- from my viewpoint I'm gonna have to learn a touch of both (or a LOT of both) to move down this path!

Clear as mud? HA! Hope you guys have a great day- apologies as I am off line for a few days of work (yeah- riiight, whats that!?) but be back for the weekend!


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## JimDawson (Mar 6, 2018)

silverforgestudio said:


> Thank you Jim. I may wind up parting this thing out if Im not able to handle its "robust-ness" or the learning curve so the biggest issue is testing it to see where I can learn/start from or decide its TOO much machine (Bugatti's arent made for the kiddie rides!)



It won't really be ''TOO much machine''  You'll just have the capacity to do things that the ''hobby class'' systems won't do.



> I was also given a box of servos- it was a total mix and match- Elcom was the one that stuck out... but these guys are LITTLE compared to what this Galil was supposed to be able to handle... makes me think these were in the same place- not the same machine (but I have NO idea as they were all from "Some warehouse I cleaned out" per the scrapper)



We'll figure out what will work.  I have used Galil motion controllers to control servos and steppers from about 40 watts up to 35 KW.  It really doesn't care what it's connected to.  I built a 3 axis dispensing machine a while back and you can pick up the machine and carry it off.  Size is not really a factor.




> HA! It will be- I honestly thought they would be scrap (may still be if they are shorted out or dont work)... and I am always looking for a project (to go with the 30-40 OTHER projects that are around the shop)... Seriously- CNC has been an interest for me and I think this may be a good push/nudge to get it in gear. I am looking forward to this.
> 
> Thanks- as this little monster grows I may take you up on that- but be advised- you're offering more Bugatti parts to a 3-year old- Let me catch up a bit and when we get to the working end (If it makes it that far) we can have that conversation... But it is DEFINITELY appreciated!



Whenever you have time to play with it. 



> -Mill most definitely- But like all things- Im gonna have to learn those as well (Bought a Rockwell lathe that needs some love before I can play/learn/grow) and no Mill yet.
> 
> .... My wild ignorant mind wanted to know if it was an 8 axis couldnt that be TWO 4-axis machines? (one for small and one for large?)



Theoretically you could run two different machines off of one card, might be an interesting excersize. Out in my shop I have one mill with 6 axis.  But this is not as complex as it might seem.  It has the normal X, Y, Z axis, plus the rotary, but add to that the spindle and the tool changer as axes.  My lathe has 5 axes, X, Z, spindle, tool turret, and live tooling drive.  Every motor that is connected to the controller is an axis.



> -Materials for casting in silver are waxes- microcrystalline so not very hard- for foundry work I think Corian and plywood are my targets- Aluminum and ferrous metals for the knifemaking and wood and plastics as well.
> 
> I think they are BOTH part of the mix now- from my viewpoint I'm gonna have to learn a touch of both (or a LOT of both) to move down this path!
> 
> Clear as mud? HA! Hope you guys have a great day- apologies as I am off line for a few days of work (yeah- riiight, whats that!?) but be back for the weekend!



When you have time there will be a lot of help here.


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## Karl_T (Mar 6, 2018)

I'll just weigh in as a second contact. I have lots of experience with all this equipment, but probably not as much as Jim. I've been doing it longer, but Jim tries harder ) I have built five Galil based CNC controls over the last twenty years, most of the work ten + years ago. before that, lots of work with antique commercial controls and the early stepper systems.

I know Camsoft (my control) does not support this old Galil hardware, so Jim's CNC software would be the only game in town. IMHO, the Mach efforts to use Galil was a complete bust.  I will say setting up galil for the first time is quite the challenge. But you end up with a control far advanced over the hobby market stuff.


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## spumco (Mar 6, 2018)

silverforgestudio said:


> but these guys are LITTLE compared to what this Galil was supposed to be able to handle



Don't confuse 'powerful' motion controller hardware with 'powerful' motor.  A powerful motion controller simply means it's very fast, accurate, and the trajectory planner is refined.  i.e. smooth.  Think _really_ complicated robot moving gracefully.  Lots of number crunching, but maybe that robot is only the size of a poodle.

3-phase - just because you don't have 3p piped directly to your Workshop O' Doom doesn't mean you can't have it.  Digital phase converters are available that magically transform the 220VAC single phase in to sweet, sweet 3-phase 220VAC to run those quiet, powerful industrial motors and so forth.  And there are variable frequency drives (VFD) that do the same thing for an individual motor.  No need to panic the neighborhood busybodies thinking you're setting up a production line.



silverforgestudio said:


> I think they are BOTH part of the mix now


Yes and no.  If you sell all your Bugatti parts and buy a turn-key CNC mill, you may not have to learn so much about the electrical pixies behind the curtain.  You can get to learning G-code, CAD/CAM/tools, feeds and speeds, etc.

I find this stuff interesting even if my head hurts from time to time.  And learning a bit about motion control and electronics (and electrical) has saved me quite a bit of money - but it's cost me quite a bit of time.  I had to, essentially, start from scratch with the entire motion control system and anything electrical on my mill before making any chips.

Learning how not to crash the machine and plow through expensive tools and vises has been delayed.  My machining 'apprenticeship' has been delayed quite a bit while learning the backstage stuff, but it's also helped me diagnose and repair a couple of sick 'pro' CNC machines for friends. Win-win: they are back to making money and I now have three 20hp VMC's to play with (supervised) whenever they're idle.  And there may be a dual-spindle, twin-turret, live tool, 8-axis turning center in the near future...   The crashes are going to be EPIC.

So... while I suspect folks here are interested in helping you design & build a monster control system, don't count out the possibility of selling it and buying a smallish turn-key CNC mill and jump-starting your new hobby.  No matter what you'll be learning about control systems and electronics and stuff - but maybe you can fiddle with that stuff while you're actually using a machine.


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## Boswell (Mar 6, 2018)

I am one that bought a turn-key system and have not looked back. I have a background in electronics and control systems so building was an option but this way I got to jump right into learning how to make widgets instead of widget makers.  Everyone seems to have there own preferences in this regard so, the only wrong answer is the one that has you doing something you don't like.


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 7, 2018)

Karl_T said:


> I'll just weigh in as a second contact....  Jim's CNC software would be the only game in town. IMHO, the Mach efforts to use Galil was a complete bust.  I will say setting up galil for the first time is quite the challenge. But you end up with a control far advanced over the hobby market stuff.


Thank you for the chime in! Good info about setting up the Galil as well- Im not at the "mach" level yet ( I mean looking at software) so the note about that is appreciated. 
-Stay tuned and thank you!




spumco said:


> 3-phase - just because you don't have 3p piped directly to your Workshop O' Doom doesn't mean you can't have it.  Digital phase converters are available that magically transform the 220VAC single phase in to sweet, sweet 3-phase 220VAC to run those quiet, powerful industrial motors and so forth.  And there are variable frequency drives (VFD) that do the same thing for an individual motor.  No need to panic the neighborhood busybodies thinking you're setting up a production line..


-True that- I have a retired "Federal" Cop behind me who does a LOT of finger wagging and is the main reason I know my Local Fire Marshal on a first-name basis... and the reason I have a line of lovely decorative bushes and landscaping behind my house...




spumco said:


> Yes and no.  If you sell all your Bugatti parts and buy a turn-key CNC mill, you may not have to learn so much about the electrical pixies behind the curtain.... saved me quite a bit of money - but it's cost me quite a bit of time.... don't count out the possibility of selling it and buying a smallish turn-key CNC mill and jump-starting your new hobby..


Well I agree- and Im time rich compared to my money- and the learning is part of the fun for me. I have mulled this over hard and still am on the fence about selling vs keeping- I think once I figure out what I have left to get/scrounge/buy/acquire to make this thing work I will have a much better picture of how it can all "fit into" a decision. The other consideration is that As I couldnt afford these parts "off the shelf"- This is an opportunity to play with something (although older) that I would not be able to in my normal world.  

To all helping here- I appreciate it- That being said this adventure has to have a plan... this is what Im working on. If I KEEP the stuff and go for it- I will commit to it.... If I SELL and capitalize other things in the shop- it will still be a useful journey... I have to consider what my limits are and how adept I am in learning and adapting to a LOT of new info. This "Plan" is being hashed out and hopefully will center some things for me- in the shop and with the path. But for now I am focusing on the KEEP portion as this is a place I wanted to get to in the future (It just got dropped off here a little early in my lap! HA!)



Boswell said:


> I am one that bought a turn-key system and have not looked back.... I got to jump right into learning how to make widgets instead of widget makers.... Everyone seems to have there own preferences in this regard so, the only wrong answer is the one that has you doing something you don't like.



Sage advice- thank you- Stay tuned and get a chuckle (and maybe offer a hint or two!)


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 7, 2018)

So here are the motors I was given- I thought I only had one set... as I unwrapped and unpacked little scrap parts and bits and bobs- these guys were all hiding in the styrofoam nuggets and plastic baggies... I have reached out to MOOG and dug a bit on the CNC forums as a guest- the ELCOM servos have had a rough life (see spindle?/ shaft areas and overall wear) but the others dont really look like they were ever installed!

ELCOM- I have googled numerous versions of the numbers on the label- I can get NO matches- can anyone tell me what model or part number/series these are?





MINNEBEA- These little guys are cute! They are all still in the box- and the stickers I figure are a clue as to the wiring- and the boxes all had "4mm .7 machine tested" hand written on them"





MOOG- these say DC motor- not stepper... and I do not feel the "cogging" when I spin the shaft like on the steppers- is this a different function item or a spindle (as it has a square shaft tip)??? I have reached out to MOOG and I will tell you folks (NO affiliation) these guys were awesome and down-home in speaking to me as a complete newbie to their product. The fellow in the technical dept took my info and said these were older and he would fwd me some info via email. Just cool customer service! He did NOT know if it was a spindle variant- so we shall see




VEXTA- these were wrapped and I do not think have ever been opened. I was able to get schematics but Im not savvy enough to know what the info means (not yet anyway) 



TBL-S AC Servo... this hefty little thing (weighs between 4-6 pounds) and is AC- it was hiding out in the bottom of the box




These are the items I have to play with with the other boards and controllers- Are these compatible?
In my mind Im saying... "Who is ready to find a lightening bolt to wake up the Bugatti-Frankenstein?"


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 9, 2018)

Im just gonna post what I have discovered so if someone has/is looking for the info hopefully it will be a good reference. There are quite a few items I was able to dig about in for these guys and hopefully the collective can fill in the gaps or point me in better directions if I am going off base.

*ELCOM-* So the top line of the data plate is the part number- only hits I received were off of an auction site- Joined the CNC Zone forums so I could dig a bit deeper- and their database has NO hits to this model. I reached out to the customer service number for Pennnmotion Pittman/Elcom... was consumed... Ahem... Acquired by Amtek... the Elcom rep I dealt with was definitely not interested in helping a little guy out- the reply I received was "these items are ranked obsolete and as such we do not supply any information" Which left me at square one- and when I replied and asked what the model/part number was his answer was "These are obsolete" a one liner email. I will be trying back.

I dont think these were any sort of CNC use- Did an online chat with an Elcom/Pittman" distributor and was told "the 5000 series DC Motors were marketed to printing and biomed application industries" The tech was supposed to fwd a catalog with the 5000 series- but it has yet to shsow up in the email.

*MINBEA-  *These little guys are/were found in printers and from what I can gather are pretty robust offerings for their time. Found a few bits of info and one source where the schematic was listed. 1.8 deg= 200 steps/rev so not a very "fine" tuned stepper- but for a start it may be what is needed (baby steps- pardon the pun!) 
-Nice thing about these is their size and adaptability to me anyway- But then again Im not exactly knowledgeable

*MOOG- *OK so these guys are the surprise of the bunch- the numbering system is fairly straightforward: C= NEMA size L=Length W= Windings M=Options and these models are still used fairly extensively but not in CNC environments- mostly in automation or pick/pull systems. If these are like the newer gen of the C23 series w same specs it has 250 oz/in torque but at 24V. 

*Vexta PH2610-* These guys were found in mainly Biomedical equipment from the readings and searches- although were used quite extensively by "homebrew CNC" guys into the early 2000's... Found 3 hits in CNC Zone for them around 2010 and earlier- but they show up a LOT in medical equipment like the Bone Densimometer HOLOGIC QDR1000.

*TBL-S AC SERVO * So this doorstop in searches only produces multiple pages in non-english and when asked to translate... yeah... it aint pretty... I have sent a RFI to the company. the catalog images I get do not look like the same housings so I am pretty sure this is a discontinued model as well (go figure- sense a trend yet? HA!) There are several other series LIKE the TBL-S but nothing schematic wise in my googly searches.

So it looks like these were from an automation or biomed or printer repair facility with a government contract- the other bits and bobs from the box contents were "Milspec" order and replacement parts and repair tag info. 

Although these are not "CNC" specific- they meet the steeper motor requirement and in some cases (the Minbea hit from CNC Zone) one or more folks have used them in that capacity. 

Now my question has changed into not WHAT can I build- but CAN these be used to build...?

If the answer is yes- My logic says next step is testing and verifying everything works and picking the best parts to move forward with.... Please let me know if Im at least headed in the right direction!

My gut says go with the MOOG (1st choice for large router build) the Vexta (1st choice for small wax milling unit) and the Minbea are the backups with the Elcom group as sacrifices to the experimentation bench and as slave motors.

Please weigh in and hope all have a great weekend!


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## JimDawson (Mar 10, 2018)

You have really done your homework.  

I'm going to have to do a bit of research, but for building a small CNC the VEXTA motors might be the best, you can use those with a standard micro-stepping drive.  The ELCOM  motors might run with your servo amps, but not sure of the specs.


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 10, 2018)

Thanks Jim- Like Spumco said- Ill be learning for a long time to get the "angry pixies" to dance in the right order...  The Vexta seem to be the "best" option for now as well as the Moogs are actually servos not steppers:

Here is the MOOG spec from the actual schematic the fellow sent- 



So I think the "Servo" versus "Stepper" argument eliminated the MOOG from the build as it would seem to add a host of other variables. Im literally reading and learning on the fly here so please bear with me while these things sink-in and are processed...

Here is the best argument Pro/Con list for servo/stepper that I have found so far and it was very revealing to see the difference: LEGACYCNCWOODWORKING- SERVO vs STEPPER

So the MOOGs are gonna be used for another project possibly... someday... maybe...


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 10, 2018)

I am separating the postings as I don't want to confuse one topic from the next

This note is about considerations for building with the Vexta's as the stepper.

Gantry weight and overall machine build- for any use with metals the gantry, frame and rails need to be fairly robust or at least rigid enough to resist twist and deflection and resistance from the materials being cut. I do not think (please correct me if I am wrong) the Vexta steppers would be served well on a machine for aluminum and wood-carving as they will rapidly be stressed pushing through denser/harder/more resistant materials.

This being said- the Vexta series would seem to be perfect for a small wax-carving setup. I imagine my platen to be 16x18 inches (workable space).  My difficulty there is a lack of a 4th axis stepper- so finding if the Minbea or one of the Elcom would be appropriate there may assist.

The next consideration I am encountering is the ball-screw, rail or belt drive for a build. Anyone have an opinion or thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Thanks in advvance and I hope all are having a great Saturday night- the wife gave me the night off so Im grubbing through a host of CNC links!

Be safe folks!


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## Boswell (Mar 10, 2018)

so what is it that you want to cut? Wood, Aluminum, Steel, Plastic?  A gantry system that might use belts to move the head around would be a mess for Steel.  
What kind of accuracy do you want to hold. Many people on this forum would likely think that plus or minus .001" would be the minimum accuracy to metal work. It would probably be overkill for wood (but I don't really know).  Ball Screws seem to be the best for reducing backlash and that needed to maintain tight tolerances in CNC systems.  I am sure more people will jump in here but how you answer these two questions will determine a lot of what choices to make.    BTW, are you thinking of building the structure or buying a manual Mill and converting it?


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 11, 2018)

@Boswell-  So to answer your questions- I want to cut waxes and patterns for investment casting with a smaller mill... and I have dreams of a larger mill (think X-carve or Shapeoko) for doing wood/aluminum.

This adventure wasn't really a part of the plan initially so its been a good exercise in scrounging for information and seeing what is really out there. I still am UN-familiar with things like expected tolerances and what is considered a "tight" machine so pardon my ignorance a bit as this is added to the learning curve.

In wax- I want to carve things like belt buckles and other pattern items- but am fast realizing I will need a 4th axis. So detail work and tighter tolerances.  I may be getting too ambitious there as well as the Vexta steppers Im not sure how "smooth" of an arc they can carve (the Vexta are 1.8 degree and I do not think they can half-step... so that may be a bit rough for resolution in smaller spaces/carvings)

The larger mill would be for patternmaking for greensand castings as well as things like plates and jig building for other hobbbies. The larger option will be on the back burner as my little motor cache has good chops for a bit of push and pull... but not enough muscle to grind through  harder (more resistive) materials.

The limitations of the size of the steppers and now the understanding I've got a few servos instead of steppers limits my build.

And I plan on building the structure- I have a foundry and capability to do some machine work- and with a smaller unit it may be just a big enough project to not overwhelm the real-estate on my bench.


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## JimDawson (Mar 11, 2018)

It still looks like the Vexta steppers might be the most useful, given that any data seems to be unavailable for the Elcom motors.  Most steppers are 1.8° motors, the microstepping is done in the stepper drive, the motor just does what it's told.  The problem is that you did not get any stepper drives in your box of goodies, but the good news is that they can be bought inexpensively on Ebay.

Given their size and current, I'm going to guess around 280 oz/in.  These should be able to run a large table top machine at reasonable resolutions and speeds.  Now are you going to push a 1/2'' bit through aluminum with them?..... No, but for the work that you describe above they would work fine.


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 11, 2018)

JimDawson said:


> It still looks like the Vexta steppers might be the most useful, given that any data seems to be unavailable for the Elcom motors.  Most steppers are 1.8° motors, the microstepping is done in the stepper drive, the motor just does what it's told.  The problem is that you did not get any stepper drives in your box of goodies, but the good news is that they can be bought inexpensively on Ebay..



Good to know- And as for the Elcom motors- Im going to be following up with the distributor Monday about the catalog. For the drivers- with these steppers being... (ahem) "vintage".... would that be an issue? I am assuming not as there are no software components to the "Working" bits- just the  pulses that push/turn the shaft... but there again I am assuming.



JimDawson said:


> Given their size and current, I'm going to guess around 280 oz/in.  These should be able to run a large table top machine at reasonable resolutions and speeds.  Now are you going to push a 1/2'' bit through aluminum with them?..... No, but for the work that you describe above they would work fine.



Here is a pic of a buckle like I am looking to do in wax- Not this exact buckle- but along these lines:



Hope this helps- Funny enough sidenote: Cleaned out part of my shed yesterday and found 20 pounds of Everdur Bronze casting grain... I brought it in the shop and put it under the caster and the box where the motors are sitting... the project pile grows... I think the first casting will be a buckle or a few bronze tokens!


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## spumco (Mar 11, 2018)

silverforgestudio said:


> but there again I am assuming.



You're assuming right.

If you want to check everything you'll need to do some bench testing:

1. Stepper motor
2. Stepper drive
3. Power supply
4. Step/direction generator.

Buy a stepper drive on ebay or where-ever.  You want a bi-polar and the max amps should be higher than the Vextra motors.  I don't recommend buying anything 'nice' or brand name just for some simple bench testing.  You're only buying one drive for now - you can buy a nice set of 3 or a Gecko 540 later.

Once you have a stepper drive picked out, you need a power supply for the drive/motor combo.  I think, for now, a 48VDC with enough amps to exceed the drive rating would be fine
.
Unless someone else has a better idea, I think the below PS will work fine.  The price difference between a 'throw-away' power supply and something that can drive all three (or 4) stepper drives is negligible.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/480W-48V10...256023?hash=item5b44adaa97:g:BVwAAOSwcedananZ

Or this one, which for a few bucks more can (eventually) drive the steppers faster (not more grunt, but higher top speed).

https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/switching-power-supply/72v8a/

Finally, you need a step-direction generator.  You could use an arduino or other single-board computer, or buy an ethernet/USB motion controller since your home/laptop computer probably doesn't have a parallel port.  However, other folks with more experience may be able to provide a cheaper apparatus for simple bench testing.

You may also need a 5/12/24vdc power supply to provide power to a breakout board or other item - but this depends on what you're using to generate step/direction signals.

Oh, and some wire.  Wire helps connect everything.

Once you have all the bits & stuff, we'll help you cobble it up and see if the motors move.


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## JimDawson (Mar 11, 2018)

spumco said:


> Finally, you need a step-direction generator. You could use an arduino or other single-board computer, or buy an ethernet/USB motion controller since your home/laptop computer probably doesn't have a parallel port. However, other folks with more experience may be able to provide a cheaper apparatus for simple bench testing.



Or just use the Galil board to generate the steps.  That's one of its primary functions


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## spumco (Mar 12, 2018)

That's cheating.  How is he going to feel productive without actually _buying_ something?


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 19, 2018)

spumco said:


> That's cheating.  How is he going to feel productive without actually _buying_ something?



Bought the breadboard today- think I went overkill- oh well... got one with a LOT of holes- and I've watched a few youtube videos on setting one up- clear as mud... Guys Im telling you I am literally "learning as I go" here. I already have a thousand projects after visiting the electronic supply store... a NEW toy store... WOW! Now I have to learn this stuff! HA! 

Power supply is on the way as well- I have a DC power supply as well from an etching setup that I think may work- I will be diggin it out this week!

As for buying stuff... evidently you've never met my wife... She's a great gal and supports my hobbies as long as they arent ripping into the house fund, bills or budget so I can definitely say I wont be spending the $$$ on a turnkey CNC if I can build this cheaper! (And- fun fact- she's in accounting- so YES- this project has a spreadsheet already...)


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## silverforgestudio (Mar 19, 2018)

Now on to PRODUCTIVE postings from the ignorant one (me)... I discovered GlobalSpec has DATASHEETS for a myriad of motors- and I am trying to find my older motors on there so stay tuned!

Just for reference- here is the link to the Motion DC motor database on GlobalSpec: https://datasheets.globalspec.com/ds/54

I hope the rest of the week meets everyone with good longer days and you guys are gearing up for garden season!


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## Boswell (Mar 20, 2018)

Welcome to the wonderful world of electronics


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## silverforgestudio (Apr 7, 2018)

UPDATE... Breaking News! This is NOT a dead thread!

HA! OK folks- the switching power supply has been ordered- apologies for taking a week+ to get my update out... I purchased the "72V/8A Switching CNC Power Supply (110VAC/220VAC )" as It was recommended...

In other news- I am still looking for my DC power supply after cleaning out the storage unit and organizing the garage I cant seem to find anything! 

As well I am looking to the next few weeks being fun indeed- I have cleared a space on the bench for this project to live and grow- and working a few extra shifts at work to buy some goodies as I go as well.

The wife is pleased and understands Im NOT buying a Bugatti right now... WHEW- that was a whirlwind conversation! Her perception of what I had and my ability to explain its a learning process Im undertaking was NOT on the same frequency... She is actually interested in learning a bit along the way so this may wind up being our new Movie Night (I know we are wierd... but hey- its works for us!)

So please be patient- I am still working on the bricks to build this!


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## silverforgestudio (Apr 8, 2018)

Todays posting will be on the motor data sheets for the Minebea and the Vexta As these are the target steppers.  I have located sheets for what I believe is the right year and model and now need to know what the data means...

FIRST UP THE MINEBEA!





OK so these 2 images were ripped from a catalog I found and all the specs and dimensions and wiring colors match. The only thing I am NOT finding is the variant notations on the stepper- the Number on the stepper is "23LM-C355-P6V"

That "-P6V" on the end of the number... any clues as to the reason/need for it?!?

What are the numbers I need to start focusing on is the FIRST order of business- Need to jump in the pool but dont know where to start

So I am understanding you normally run a stepper at 10-20x the "rated voltage"... So does the Amperage compound as well or are these threshold values for movement/motion/work?

Thanks for the input and now, on with the show!


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## silverforgestudio (Apr 8, 2018)

And on to the VEXTA!

So these are the specs I have found: my steppers are the BOTTOM LINE on the chart below (PH2610-E2.9)








So the big question here is this: WHAT is Unipolar vs BiPolar and whats the Amp/phase difference? (This is the last line on the chart as well)

Is there a benefit to wiring the stepper in BiPolar configuration for my application? 

Thanks for reading and hope this Sunday finds you and your families safe, well and in good spirits! Im posting while the kiddo and wife nap before heading out to play! 

I appreciate the help and the direction as well!


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## silverforgestudio (Apr 8, 2018)

Now for the surprise of the day... TAMAGAWA WROTE BACK! 

Now I'm as confused as ever... e-v-e-r... this is wierd. Here is a picture of the servo plate I have:


	

		
			
		

		
	
  HMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm..... *Clearly it says AC *

Now kids- get ready... here's the data sheet:


Hard to read- but the Type # of the servo is same- But check out the highlighted portion- *BRUSHLESS DC SERVOMOTOR* 

aaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAARRrrrrrrgh!

If I wasn't confused before- I am now! 

So dear intrepid readers... Can I test this motor with DC and if it fails assume its AC? 
(By the way- I have the schematics and encoder info in .pdf form so although it is hard to read in the pic it is actually pretty clear on the file)

Here is the ENCODER Info for the Tamagawa as well... 



So what info is important off this sheet.... What do I need to START learning with here?

A lot to process I know- and I appreciate the help and assistance from everyone- even the folks who read and dont comment- hopefully along the path I will get to a point the silent masses can weigh in on... maybe paint colors or curtain ideas? HA! Seriously- thanks folks!

Until then- the struggle is real and the learning continues- the ELCOM guys are the last buggers of the bunch I have NO data on. Time to keep digging!

Till then hope all is well and the weekend treated all with springtime colors! It rained here Saturday- but the trampoline park was Awesome with the family and friends!


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## silverforgestudio (Apr 21, 2018)

Hello folks! So I have a question for the collective about the SERVO MOTORS in the bunch... could the Servo be put to use in a small sensitive drill press build?

In my reading (and please correct e if I am wrong!) I am finding these guys to be perfect for sensitive operation wiith higher torque and better motor efficiency- not constant on (or as Jim and Spumco pointed out when balanced not twitchy)

Here is why I am asking:
1- Reading you can over-run the RPM for brief periods(dont even know how yet- or IF this is possible?)

2- the torque is fairly constant along the RPM curve and with a sensitive press in my world it would only be doing brass, sterling and fine silver,  wax, aluminum and some woods for knife, jewelry and clock parts

3- the size of the press lends itself to a higher degree of precision as well as adaptability to an already crowded bench


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## silverforgestudio (Apr 21, 2018)

I am still trying to find out the best way to process where to start on the steppers too by the way- if anyone has any insight I would appreciate it. Found the power supply and the 72v 8A constant power supply for the build arrived as well... we are moving from the ok- Ive got them... into the "lets power SOMETHING up" phase... baby steps I know- but Im having a good run on information now that things have moved a bit!

As well- Please refer to the TAMAGAWA Post above- still trying to puzzle that one on the AC on the label versus the DC on the spec sheet... Any thoughts? Anyone... (crickets in the distance) Anyone...?


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## Boswell (Apr 21, 2018)

silverforgestudio said:


> could the Servo be put to use in a small sensitive drill press build?



That is an interesting idea. GREAT speed control. I would like think it would not be an issue as long as you stay in the torque range.


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## silverforgestudio (Apr 29, 2018)

WEEKLY UPDATE.... Got cable for the Galil, power cords, power supply for testing... and reached out to a local mechatronics instructor at a high school relatively close to me for some help as well. Figured Im about the "Junior HS Student" level of understanding for now... 

Oddly enough I spent less than 20 bucks for all the connectors and ribbon for the control- The Galil site sells them at a price point WAY above this... Im beginning to like this journey of a build... 

Reason I bring it up is My price point for a turnkey CNC would be approx 2500 USD. Not including software (yet another journey)... So All total Im into this build about 120 dollars so far (and finding out I over bought on the breadboard to boot!) SO as long as I dont go over this limit Im coming out positive cash, and super positive on knowledge!

As for the sensitive drill press- this may be a go once my understanding of things moves up from "Crayola" ranking to "fingerpainting"... At least I am trying to keep the little guys in mind for other projects as well.

I did a foolish thing though- I will confess... I did buy several Learn Electronics books- now Im in info-overload and analysis paralysis- I need to get back to the motors!

Stay tuned- The strawberries are blooming- fresh jam for the toast is coming up! Hope you guys are doing well and getting mobile in the springtime temps!


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## markba633csi (Apr 29, 2018)

Silver: A brushless DC motor is similar to an AC 3 phase motor- I know it's confusing.  Try to absorb as much electronics as you can
without making your head explode.  You may find it interesting. 
Mark


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## silverforgestudio (Apr 30, 2018)

Thanks Mark- Appreciate the Word O' Wisdom... I will keep that in mind.

I think I missed a few "Basic Boy 101 Knowledge" lectures somewhere along the way... HA! Keep reading and get a chuckle as I go down the rabbit hole!


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## markba633csi (May 1, 2018)

For me, when I learned what Ohm's law was all about, a lot of the pieces started to fall into place...
M


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## silverforgestudio (May 6, 2018)

Update of the week... Nothing has changed in the saga... learning was put on hold to:

1- put in a garden... gotta eat- the pole beans were crawling out of the seed plugs and almost root-bound!
2- attend a friends wedding- Beautiful and awesome. I wish you kids well (great venue on the river out in the country)
3- CLEAN.... THE.... GARAGE... OK- So I pulled the rear wall down, rewired a 220 outlet for my (new to me) Boyar-Schultz SG... it will need some love and attention as well before running at capacity (I have a trend it would seem of getting tools I can't use yet!)
4- try to close down a storage unit... this has been WAAAAAY overdue.
5- put a coat of paint on garage wall to cover my not so neat sheetrock job

On the home front- I did start playing with the breadboard... kind of fun to blow a few LEDs- I may just be starting to learn something!

Got the grapevine put in... totally NOT machining or electronics or CNC- but in a life kinda way... My backyard is like a host of friends. The blueberry bushes came from a friends house in NC, the Grapevine was a cutoff of my parents vine (That came from my grandfathers house), the Fig bush (attempt 3 at growing one) is from another mentor's home, and the pole beans are heirloom from my dads garden.

Back to work next week and the electronics learning continues!

One question folks- and if you are reading at this point good on ya!

QUESTION: Can anyone tell me anything about the discrepency between the Tamagawa paperwork and the motor label? (The whole DC/AC fiasco)

Be safe and as always- at peace


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## JimDawson (May 6, 2018)

You have been busy 



silverforgestudio said:


> QUESTION: Can anyone tell me anything about the discrepency between the Tamagawa paperwork and the motor label? (The whole DC/AC fiasco



This is the confusing part, a Brushless DC Motor (BLDC) *is* a 3 phase AC motor.  There are some small differences between a standard 3 phase motor and a BLDC motor, but it is possible to test a BLDC motor on 3 phase AC.  The BLDC motor has a permanent magnet rotor rather than a normal squirrel cage amarture found in the the standard 3 phase motor but the windings are similar.  The BLDC motor is normally operated with a BLDC or servo drive which converts DC to a 3 phase output to drive the motor.  In the case of most servo drives, the AC input is rectified to DC and then output as the 3 phase to run the motor.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.


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## Boswell (May 6, 2018)

silverforgestudio said:


> One question folks- and if you are reading at this point good on ya



Good to see that even with all you have going on, you still had time to blow a few LEDs 

Slow and steady!  I can't help much with motors and servos, but if you have questions about electronics (like how to avoid blowing LEDs) I have a little more experience.


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## silverforgestudio (May 11, 2018)

*


Boswell said:



			Good to see that even with all you have going on, you still had time to blow a few LEDs .
		
Click to expand...

*
Thanks Boswell- I will be hitting the books and getting a few projects on deck regarding LEDs and the resistor values next- This seems like a long road (as I was told it would be)... but already its pretty cool knowing I am dealing with the basics.

Now just WHAT the dickens do LEDs have to do with stepper motors? HA! Well... baby steps. 

That is all for now- new update Sunday (at least Im trying to get one a week so the thread doesnt languish)


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## silverforgestudio (May 11, 2018)

JimDawson said:


> This is the confusing part, a Brushless DC Motor (BLDC) *is* a 3 phase AC motor. There are some small differences between a standard 3 phase motor and a BLDC motor, but it is possible to test a BLDC motor on 3 phase AC.



OK thanks Jim- I am going to file that one and chew on it later... So using my "itty-bitty-bit-O-logic" I have- I could use a VFD off my 220 and slowly ramp up voltage to the servo and test it?

Or am I tempting fate at this point to try that?


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## JimDawson (May 11, 2018)

Maybe that would work. I've never tried it, but it might be worth a shot.  I would set the current limit on the VFD to its lowest possible value.


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