# Mister or Flood



## skeeter355 (Apr 1, 2013)

Big noobie in maching. Just bought a PM45 and seeing if guys are using the flood system that comes with the mill or using a mister system. Also what mister system do you recommend with this mill.

Thanks Skeeter


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## Ray C (Apr 1, 2013)

LOL... I guess you could say I use a Mister all right...  On my PM45, it's a generic spray bottle with WD-40.

Everyone has different techniques and I look forward to hearing about the Misters.  I've done flood cooling on both lathe and mill -and find it too messy for the one-off piecework I do and it obstructs my view of the part as I'm working on it.  I'm not knocking it... just mentioning you might get a lot of viewpoints on this -all of which will be valid.

Hey, Darkzero/Will... You use misters, right?  Chime in please.


Ray




skeeter355 said:


> Big noobie in maching. Just bought a PM45 and seeing if guys are using the flood system that comes with the mill or using a mister system. Also what mister system do you recommend with this mill.
> 
> Thanks Skeeter


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## PurpLev (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm "misting" with a spray bottle with WD-40 as well (not aerosole - just a regular cleaner type spray bottle, and I get bulk WD-40) - for Aluminum

for steel I brush on lard on the cutter and part to be cut. it's solidish when room temp. then evaporates when heated (and takes heat with it) - non messy, non chemical, no problems.

than again, I don't do production lines and don't cut 24/7 so this works for me, but may not work for some others.


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## Ray C (Apr 1, 2013)

And for the record, I'm very open to the idea of using misters.  I really don't like the mess that oil makes but, all my established procedures use oil.  I'd gladly learn a new trick if it helped keeping all the equipment a little cleaner.  I must admit though, I'm not particularly fond of high-pressure air around precision machinery (and let's please not open that can of worms right now).

So... if anyone can tell us about Kool Mist systems, how effective they are, how they take the place of cutting oil, cost of solutions, odors etc...  I would really appreciate hearing about it.


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## darkzero (Apr 1, 2013)

Ray C said:
			
		

> Hey, Darkzero/Will... You use misters, right?  Chime in please.



I don't use misters or flood for the same reasons mentioned, too messy to use in my home garage, well for flood that is. I just use air or apply fluids the old fashioned way with luer-lok bottle or brush. I have a second cold air gun that I scored new in the box for the mill but I haven't hooked it up yet. But using a vortex air gun isn't exactly air efficient. I have 77 gallons of air & I would still like more. 

A couple of others I know use MQL systems, Accu-Lube to be exact. One of them used to use a mister. They both swear by them but they are very expensive if you don't score them for a great deal.

I use Tap Magic Alum or WD40 for Al & Boelube for Ti & everything else sparingly as cutting fluid. I use Boelube paste for the bandsaw. One thing I heard about misters is that depending on the solutions used, they can cause stains on Al or rust on the machines if not cleaned up but I don't know the truth in that.


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## skeeter355 (Apr 2, 2013)

Well now it makes sense why the local machine store was selling gallon containers of WD40!  So use WD40 on aluminum and what is best on steel?  I see boeing lube but what else? I do have Do-Drill from Brownells.


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## darkzero (Apr 3, 2013)

skeeter355 said:


> I see boeing lube but what else?



IMHO, Boelube is expensive! There are plenty of other cutting fluids that work great for much cheaper. That's just what I've always used for Ti, I like the results & I don't need to use much of it. I have a gallon jug of it & a few smaller bottles that I got on sale which will last me a while. Whenever I run out I may look into cheaper alternatives.


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## bvd1940 (Apr 3, 2013)

Do a Goggle on fog buster, it is a mid of the road method without the mist in the air and no flood lube.
Just my 2 cents worth but what do I know.:thinking:


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## Ray C (Apr 3, 2013)

LOL...  About 10 minutes ago, I ordered a Kool Mist setup.  Something in the back of my mind (actually, the bottom of my lungs) is telling me to pursue this method of lube/cooling.  The smoke coming off cutting oil had me choking yesterday.  






bvd1940 said:


> Do a Goggle on fog buster, it is a mid of the road method without the mist in the air and no flood lube.
> Just my 2 cents worth but what do I know.:thinking:


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## darkzero (Apr 3, 2013)

Ray C said:


> The smoke coming off cutting oil had me choking yesterday.



Now, just be careful of inhaling the moisture/solution that might be in the air from the mister. I've heard people talk about this too. Ray, please share your thoughts & results on it if/when you can. I hear they work pretty well & don't require a lot of air but I never got around to trying one.


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## bvd1940 (Apr 3, 2013)

darkzero said:


> Now, just be careful of inhaling the moisture/solution that might be in the air from the mister. I've heard people talk about this too. Ray, please share your thoughts & results on it if/when you can. I hear they work pretty well & don't require a lot of air but I never got around to trying one.



I can tell you first hand as the cool mister was what we used in the last shop I worked in & it was bad on the lungs & eyes.
The fog buster puts out small drops o0f fluid but NO!! mist in the air and it can be portable to move to more than one machine and use cool mist coolant so no rust!!


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## Ray C (Apr 4, 2013)

All good thoughts and feedback and I appreciate it.  Today was another smokey day of cutting oil and even with the overhead door cracked, there's a constant haze.  I'll just try another poison for a while.

... Been thinking about this for a while and have already thought about making different nozzles to achieve different atomizations.  I'm not too crazy about compressed air around my ways etc.  One thought I had was to make an ultra fine nozzle that blows a miniscule amount of vapor that would be strong within a tiny, directed area but not enough volume to carry more than a few inches.   Other ideas too so, I'll kick them around.  I went into this with experimentation in mind.  We'll see how it goes and at worst, I'll be out 120 bucks.  


Ray


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## Tony Wells (Apr 4, 2013)

Ray, a word of caution, DO NOT use a standard soluble oil in your Kool Mist system. USE ONLY coolant intended for this use. Many common coolants are chlorinated, and are definitely unhealthy to breathe. The Kool Mist is designed for this use and although if concentrated by overuse can be a slight irritant. It's possible that there is a personal aspect to this, however. Some people simply may be more sensitive to it, or in especially small areas, the mist may fog up if used heavily. The nozzle is adjustable, and can be set to emit quite little mist. I use mine frequently on the mill, because I like the cooling, plus the air blows the chips out of the way while using an end mill. I find it useless on the lathe, in favor of flood, but the lathe is built for it.


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## Ray C (Apr 4, 2013)

Thanks Tony...

A quick question...  When you say "standard soluble", do you mean coolants other than Kool Mist (or others designed for these atomizing units)?  The kit I ordered comes with some Kool Mist but, I have some other stuff (called Rust Lick) around.


Ray




Tony Wells said:


> Ray, a word of caution, DO NOT use a standard soluble oil in your Kool Mist system. USE ONLY coolant intended for this use. Many common coolants are chlorinated, and are definitely unhealthy to breathe. The Kool Mist is designed for this use and although if concentrated by overuse can be a slight irritant. It's possible that there is a personal aspect to this, however. Some people simply may be more sensitive to it, or in especially small areas, the mist may fog up if used heavily. The nozzle is adjustable, and can be set to emit quite little mist. I use mine frequently on the mill, because I like the cooling, plus the air blows the chips out of the way while using an end mill. I find it useless on the lathe, in favor of flood, but the lathe is built for it.


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## Tony Wells (Apr 4, 2013)

Exactly what I mean.....if the coolant is not designed to be used in a mist system, it will be pretty rough on the lungs and sinuses. I have used a Rust Lick product before, but not anything for mist units. I pretty much stick with Kool Mist. Never had problems with it except when I got too carried away and was misting way too heavily. Makes the a/c filter get oily and trap dust better though.


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## Ray C (Apr 4, 2013)

First... -Thanks, Tony for the info and heads-up!

Update:  The unit arrived today... amazing since it was ordered yesterday with standard delivery service.   I quickly discovered that if the supply bottle is placed on the ground, the air pressure setting must be kept very high to create enough venturi vacuum to overcome gravity and pull the solution up the tube.   Hmmm, Mondo think gravity bad...  I placed the supply bottle on the shelf behind the lathe which is approximately level with the spray outlet.  In that case, the unit produced a very fine spray at an extremely low air pressure setting.  Even at the low pressure setting, the evaporative action makes a darn cold spot on the palm of your hand and emits a much reduced but seemingly adequate liquid volume.  This is looking good so far...

Can't try it out yet.  The lathe is tied up with a critical piece and I'm waiting for some inserts to arrive.  Could be a couple days before I test it on the lathe but might try the mill or surface grinder in the mean time.

Ray


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## Tony Wells (Apr 4, 2013)

Right, it makes a huge difference in how much air is required to draw the coolant into the nozzle. I have one mounted to the mill on a little shelf bracketed to the side, about a foot below the average table elevation. If I want extra fine mist or want a heavier mixture, I use a second unit I have that just draws from a gallon jug. I sit it on the mill table, so there is very little suction effort needed to draw the coolant. Yours has the mixture control style nozzle, I take it? I haven't looked in a long time at what they offer now. No reason to change it I suppose, it works fine. If you want just a little mist, close it off at the nozzle and up the air pressure. And the other way around too. If you want bigger droplets, that don't tend to float all around the shop, open the nozzle and lower the air, but then make sure the jug is even with the nozzle.


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## Ray C (Apr 4, 2013)

Tony, 

Venture if you can to give a ballpark guestimate of how long some given quantity of (diluted) solution will last.  i.e. do you go through it like crazy?  -I'm just curious... 

TIA...

EDIT:  The unit I have is this one:  







Ray




Tony Wells said:


> Right, it makes a huge difference in how much air is required to draw the coolant into the nozzle. I have one mounted to the mill on a little shelf bracketed to the side, about a foot below the average table elevation. If I want extra fine mist or want a heavier mixture, I use a second unit I have that just draws from a gallon jug. I sit it on the mill table, so there is very little suction effort needed to draw the coolant. Yours has the mixture control style nozzle, I take it? I haven't looked in a long time at what they offer now. No reason to change it I suppose, it works fine. If you want just a little mist, close it off at the nozzle and up the air pressure. And the other way around too. If you want bigger droplets, that don't tend to float all around the shop, open the nozzle and lower the air, but then make sure the jug is even with the nozzle.


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## Tony Wells (Apr 5, 2013)

Naturally, it will depend on how rich you mix it, and how heavy a mist you are generating. So it's hard to say exactly. It will last longer than you probably think. And on your mill, if the table has coolant returns, you can capture it if you have enough use to drain off. Of course, it goes without saying that if you do choose to reclaim it, it needs to be filtered, because the nozzle passages are rather small and should be protected. The pickup tube has a strainer on it, but I try to keep the source very clean. That gallon will last you a long time. 

Don't try to mix it much leaner than the instructions say. It will cause rust to spot any clean metal. Normal mix will leave enough oil behind not to do that. I really haven't used it much on the lathe, having flood set up, but on the bp clone, exclusively over flood. I once planned on making a pan to sit the clone in and do a flood system, but the mist does all the cooling I need. I use it frequently. I may pan it someday for other reasons, but no hurry.


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## 4GSR (Apr 5, 2013)

I second Tony on sticking with Cool Mist product for your spray mister.  

I've tired one of the other products years back, it messed up one mister to the point we could not get it unplugged.  On the mills we were running, we plugged the hole on the table trough, and when it filled, we took a turkey baster and sucked up the spent mister coolant we could and recycled it.  When we recycled it, we sucked up the good coolant below the stuff that collected on top with the turkey baster.  We generally got one maybe two cycles before the coolant got cruded up enough  that we tossed it out.  Most of the time, it evaporated before we could reuse it.  I don't run my mill enough now days to get full benefit of the mister, so I just mix it and use as I need it.


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## samthedog (Apr 5, 2013)

I spoke to a chap at work that had been employed to manufacture parts for missiles and weapons regarding coolant for aluminium. He said he has used ethylene glycol (radiator fluid) mixed with water and has also used methylated spirits. He said the glycol mix was good because it had corrosion inhibitors and that the methylated spirits was good because it didn't stain the aluminium being machined.

I havn't tried this but the guy seemed very knowledgable so I may give this a test when I get some time.

Paul.


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## Terrywerm (Apr 6, 2013)

I do not have one here at home, but I did have the opportunity to use one in a maintenance shop where I used to work. I liked it, you could control the coolant quite well, and could keep it from creating a fog in the air too like the others have said. I've been thinking about getting one for here at home, just have not yet pulled the trigger on it, too many other things to take care of right now.


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## jpfabricator (Apr 6, 2013)

darkzero said:


> I don't use misters or flood for the same reasons mentioned, too messy to use in my home garage, well for flood that is. I just use air or apply fluids the old fashioned way with luer-lok bottle or brush. I have a second cold air gun that I scored new in the box for the mill but I haven't hooked it up yet. But using a vortex air gun isn't exactly air efficient. I have 77 gallons of air & I would still like more.
> 
> A couple of others I know use MQL systems, Accu-Lube to be exact. One of them used to use a mister. They both swear by them but they are very expensive if you don't score them for a great deal.
> 
> I use Tap Magic Alum or WD40 for Al & Boelube for Ti & everything else sparingly as cutting fluid. I use Boelube paste for the bandsaw. One thing I heard about misters is that depending on the solutions used, they can cause stains on Al or rust on the machines if not cleaned up but I don't know the truth in that.



Northern tool in Tyler offers a remaned air compressor for around $400 on their website.


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## eac67gt (Apr 6, 2013)

I am using the mister from Little Machine Shop. http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3804&category=
It puts out a little more than I desired so I built a solenoid operated valve with a pulse timer. It turns air on and off on whatever timing I desire.
Works quite well but I still only use it in certain situations. Most of the time I was a spray bottle of WD40 like a lot of the guys.
The mister setup I have works good when I want hands free or I really want to keep the tool and/or part cool.
I agree you must use only what is recommended or supplied with it. One thing I read about online was some water based coolant/lubricants can grow bacteria and than you are spraying that into the air.
Solution 77 inhibits bacteria growth but then the "inhibit" does not mean it totally prevents growth.
The 77 solution is mixed 32:1 which means a quart bottle that was supplied with it will last a long, long time.
I am only mixing it with distilled water because I don't want to subject the equipment to any more contaminants than I have too and you are  starting with water than should not have any sort of organic material in it to start with to grow into bacteria.
I would suggest when the system is not in use to blow the lines out to discourage bacterial growth.
Once again though WD40 for most things is great. Especially works perfect on aluminum.

Have a great day.

Ed


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## Ray C (Apr 6, 2013)

How did I live this long without one?  I'm impressed!

Been running the mister all morning on a couple projects and it works great.  After tweaking the settings, I found a nice combination of mist and spray droplets using hardly any air pressure.  The finish was fantastic, there's no water pooling-up and the parts are almost bone dry after a cut.  -Not only that, the part and carbide inserts were cold.  I was quite skeptical but this mornings' work really changed my mind.

Here's a piece of 1045 after a 25 thou DoC.

Ray


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## dbur (Apr 7, 2013)

I've been trying to decide about coolant also.   I've been just brushing oil on so far.  I looked over the various systems and don't want a liquid or mist system because of the mess.   I'm thinking I like the Fog Buster, but have a few questions about the operation.

I assume the tank is just an inline canister type filter housing with a pipe added to pick up fluid from the bottom of the canister and that the air feed and canister are pressurized with the same air pressure and the fluid flow rate is metered by an adjustable valve on the fluid line.

?1:  Does the fluid tend to siphon out continuously when pressure is off if the tank is positioned above the work?  If not what stops it?

?2:  I think I would use an electrically controlled pneumatic valve to turn it on and off.   When turned off it seems there would still be some pressurized air in the fluid canister.  What keeps it from continuing to spray forth fluid until that pressure is gone?

?3:   When starting up, is the fluid line full of air that takes a while to clear out?   If so, is an auto bleed air valve used or needed to get the air purged faster?

For coolant it seems KoolMist 77 is one of the most universal and safest.   I don't have much ventilation around my tools.   A similar alternative may be this:  *Premier 600 Synthetic Coolant*
http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=31750

I don't suppose I will use coolant very fast.  
?4:  Is it effective to add a small amount of sodium hypochrlorate (bleach) to the solution to prevent bacterial growth?  Or is there some problem with that?

Thanks.


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## eac67gt (Apr 7, 2013)

On mine and I believe the one Ray got it is a venturi tube setup that pulls the coolant from the bottle. Mine is combined in the nozzle itself but Ray's maybe done in the connection block.
I am controlling the air by a electric operated valve but being it is a venturi process it only sprays when air valve is opened. As Tony has said the bottle that the solution is siphoned from needs to be near the level of the nozzle for it to work correctly. Especially on mine being I pulse the spray if the bottle is too low the soultion runs back and when it tries to spray nothing comes out unless spray pulse is increased.
The bacteria growth issue I think a lot of manufacturers have taken into account after the fact. The 77 solution is suppose to have an anti-bacterial agent in it but I agree it is a concern.
One reason I control mine by pulsing a valve is to decrease that mist that can be generated and you breath in. I haven't played with my system to much to tweak it all in for all around best results.


Ed


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## Ray C (Apr 7, 2013)

Hi Guys...

A couple more observations and comments here after being in front of the lathe all day.

1) I really like this thing.
2) I liked it so much, I bought 2 more (for mill and surface grinder) and a gallon jug of love potion #77.
3) With the settings tweaked where I like them, there is no residual moisture anywhere around the part.  The droplets/mist hit the part and evaporate as the cut takes place.
4) The amount of pressure and mist/droplets needed to keep things cool and maintain a nice finish in medium carbon steel is amazingly small !
5) While boring a 1.125" dia hole with a drill bit in the tailstock, I could feel the heat from the part being carried away as steam.  The part was warm when finished but, much cooler from what I'd normally expect.
6) I used the lathe for about 6 hours (turning the mister off when not in use) and used approximately 5 fl.oz. of the diluted solution in that time.
7) Parts come out of the lathe cool instead of warm.
8) As hoped, the air pressure is not intense enough to cause concern that swarf is getting wedged into critical areas (or my eyes).
9) So far, so good...  I can't even smell the stuff and no weird reactions.  Matter of fact, no headache from cutting oil fumes today.


Ray


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## toag (Apr 11, 2013)

Ray,

You sold me on one!  I like the no headache from fumes by product.  I have an old one i pulled off a scrap mill, cleaned it up but never installed it, thought it would be crappy.  I'll give it a try and if it i'll buy one
Do the chips come off pretty hot still?


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## Ray C (Apr 11, 2013)

Yes.  Chips still come off hot but part and bit stay much, much cooler.

LOL:  I've got a nice "6" branded into my face as of yesterday.  Was wearing goggles and that little indigo devil landed right on my cheek and honkered in.  Heard it sizzle and saw the smoke rising past my eye glasses.

Oh yeah.... So after several days more of lathe work and I'm only 1/2 way through the original quart of diluted coolant.  At this rate, a gallon of undiluted solution will last a year or two.





toag said:


> Ray,
> 
> You sold me on one! I like the no headache from fumes by product. I have an old one i pulled off a scrap mill, cleaned it up but never installed it, thought it would be crappy. I'll give it a try and if it i'll buy one
> Do the chips come off pretty hot still?


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## MikeWi (Apr 11, 2013)

I think you may have sold me on the Kool Mist as well Ray.  My pm1236 will come with a flood cooler, but everyone keeps talking about how messy it is.  OTH, the room it will be in is very small so fumes would be a major concern.


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## Ray C (Apr 11, 2013)

Please, if you go the route of oil, keep fans running for your own good.  We really shouldn't play games with fumes in enclosed spaces.

 Just want you to know, I never gave flood coolant a fair chance.  I used it on my mill for 2-3 weeks about 3 years ago.  With the lathe, I tried it for only 3-4 times and it left me with the same impression and decided not to change my existing procedures to accommodate a different cooling method.

There's an awful lot of guys out there who successfully use flood coolant -and they can't all be wrong, that's for sure.  Another fellow pointed out that Castrol makes a clear fluid.  All the stuff I had was milky.

And to be completely on the fair side of comparison, the mister has caused me to change my procedures about oversize cutting to allow for thermal contraction. It's going to take me weeks to re-experiment and take notes so, it's not totally painless to adopt.

Also, you need compressed air.  I have a primary 29 gallon tank and another one that I can switch on and gang-up when needed.  For just misting, the 29 gallon tank kicks on about once every 15-20 minutes.





MikeWi said:


> I think you may have sold me on the Kool Mist as well Ray. My pm1236 will come with a flood cooler, but everyone keeps talking about how messy it is. OTH, the room it will be in is very small so fumes would be a major concern.


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## Analias (Apr 11, 2013)

One thing I didn't see mentioned, and may not be an issue with lathes, is that Koolmist will cause some types of plastic to become brittle and crack.  There's been several discussions of this problem on other forums.

The covers of my Fairchild limit switches on my X3 are suffering from this effect and need to be replaced.  I'm hoping I can mill some aluminum or nylon covers for my X and Y limit switches.

On a lathe I don't expect there to be too many plastic parts that may exist and are exposed to the mist spray.


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## MikeWi (Apr 11, 2013)

Ray C said:


> Please, if you go the route of oil, keep fans running for your own good.  We really shouldn't play games with fumes in enclosed spaces.


That's partly why I bought the preferred package.  This is a very small room in the basement 7'x16'x80" with no chance of ventilation, so the flood cooling was intended from the start.



Ray C said:


> Just want you to know, I never gave flood coolant a fair chance.


I'll try it since it's there, but it's nice to know there's an alternative if it really is that messy.  A compressor would just add to the noise level, but I do have a spare if I decide to go that route.


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## DMS (Apr 11, 2013)

The stuff is great on aluminum. I am using a shop built "Fogbuster" clone and running CoolMist 77. If I cut pretty heavily parts still get warm, I usually turn up the coolant. At times it's like being in the shower with all the steam coming off. It is definitely effective at avoiding the dreaded built up edge on aluminum, and it doesn't give me a headache like WD-40 vaports. The mild air blast is also nice for moving chips out of the cut zone. Mine is only running at 10-12psi, so it doesn't fling them all over just gets them out of the way.

As far as coolant usage. I purchased a small bottle from LMS about 2 years ago. I am getting close to finishing it off, but it lasts a long time. I tend to mix mine kind of rich, because I have had some problems with staining if it gets trapped between parts (like between the table and the vice).


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