# Scraping in a straight edge



## rabler (Oct 13, 2022)

I have a few lathes where I want to clean up the cross slide and compound, so I figured I start by making a straight edge.  Got this casting from dgfoster a couple years ago.  Just getting around to this, milled the faces, and just started scraping.  Of course it would be nice if I had a suitable surface grinder that worked, but that's another restoration project yet to be tackled.   The bottom was milled on the horizontal part of my Grizzly horizontal/vertical mill.  The angle face was milled on the K&T 3k vertical with a 6" face mill.  The K&T definitely left a flatter face.

I suppose if I'm going to a lot of this I'll have to invest in a power scraper.  Obviously the biax are the only real name in the game but I can see trying out a demolition saw conversion before dropping the $2k+ on a biax.  That way I'll appreciate the real thing  But the surface grinder would probably be a better start! (And thus, he heads further down the rabbit hole)


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## benmychree (Oct 13, 2022)

From what I understand, the demo saw conversion has little to recommend it, very clumsy to use for one thing, I suspect that you will hear from Rich King for more details.  Having used the Biax, I heartily endorse it.  I had an earlier unit that was single speed and used a Variac to slow it down, it was much cheaper and worked well, finally I was given a new model Biax from the estate of an old friend, and it works even better!


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2022)

benmychree said:


> From what I understand, the demo saw conversion has little to recommend it, very clumsy to use for one thing, I suspect that you will hear from Rich King for more details.  Having used the Biax, I heartily endorse it.  I had an earlier unit that was single speed and used a Variac to slow it down, it was much cheaper and worked well, finally I was given a new model Biax from the estate of an old friend, and it works even better!


That's pretty much what I've heard.   I'll probably end up with a Biax at some point.  But I'll finish this one by hand.


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## FOMOGO (Oct 13, 2022)

I always wince at the the price too, but right tool for the job and all that. I have enough jobs for one to justify it, but still hoping to trip over one for a low ball price. Mike


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 13, 2022)

I just saw this and will write tomorrow as I have 2 meetings today and tonight.  Is your surface plate on 3 rubber pads?   Have you watched any You Tube shows ?  Like Stefan Gottswinter or Jan sverre Haugjord  Adam Booth?   They all are students and have good shows.  Jan has a lot more showing scraping and rebuilding.  He is in Norway and has taken 6 classes, 1 here in the states and the others in Europe.


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> I just saw this and will write tomorrow as I have 2 meetings today and tonight.  Is your surface plate on 3 rubber pads?   Have you watched any You Tube shows ?  Like Stefan Gottswinter or Jan sverre Haugjord  Adam Booth?   They all are students and have good shows.  Jan has a lot more showing scraping and rebuilding.  He is in Norway and has taken 6 classes, 1 here in the states and the others in Europe.


Yes on YouTube videos from several of your students.  Stefan Gotteswinter, Keith Rucker, Abom79, a few others that have taken your classes.  I would really like to attend one of your classes myself but health issues make travel very challenging.  I’ll check out Jan’s content. Thanks!


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 13, 2022)

Please take a photo of the scraper blade side and top.  Did you sharpen the blade, do you have a grinding or lapping machine.  What radius is the blade?   Take your bathroom scale out to you scraping table; lay a red rag on it and hold your scraper handle and push down until you get 8 pounds pressure and if you measure the depth of the scrape mark it should be a min of .0002" to .001" deep.  That's how hard you have to push down all the time when your scraping.  You should  have a blade radius of 60mm or 2.4" to a 90mm to 2.5" .  The scraper blades usually come to flat or 140 mm  / 5.5" and that is to flat to get a consistent scrape mark.  I have seen those hand scrapers in Germany too.


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## vtcnc (Oct 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> (And thus, he heads further down the rabbit hole)
> 
> View attachment 423258
> View attachment 423257


You got me here!


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## Uglydog (Oct 14, 2022)

rabler,
My rebuilding/scraping mentor and several machinist mentors are old school.
They were rather insistent that you learn hand wheels and hand feed with HSS before you use carbide, DRO or powerfeed.
Same with scraping learn high speed steel and Andersons before you pick up a carbide Sandvick or Dapra.
Yes, I have a Biax and they make life easier. And yes, if you are going to do alot of scraping you will want to source one. However, there are situations which are still best done by hand.  
Do you have Connellys book on machine tool rebuilding? It's a worthy investment, and there are chapters on straight edges as well as the methodology and sequence for rebuilds.

Daryl
MN


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2022)

@Richard King 2 - I have a low speed diamond lapper, I’ve ground a  radius on the carbide scraper blade but haven’t measured it, and a smaller radius (2-3mm) on the corners to keep them from digging.  I sharpened the carbide at a 5 degree negative angle so I can flip it before need to resharpen.  Hand scraping is tough work.


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2022)

@Ultradog MN 
I do have Connely’s book, have read enough of RK’s comments about it to grab a copy.


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> You got me here!


I made a deal on a decent sized VMC last night.  So I have taken the plunge there too.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

I am sorry Members, but here is a little history lesson:   Daryl, I taught you to scrape before I introduced you to Dennis (who your calling your mentor.  Dennis Danish was my friend and I wanted him to observe, help  my students and you were one of them at a class I was teaching in St. Paul approx 10 years ago.  I invited him and that is where you met him at a class you attended as a student.   I met Dennis at Midwestern Machinery in the 1980's in Mpls where I was a scraping contractor with my dad.   Dennis arranged a scraping class at Honeywell (Alliant Tech)  where he worked and I taught him to scrape the modern methods, using a carbide blade and a BIAX scraper..  He did learn to scrape from his dad who learned from my dad in the 1950's - 1960's when my Dad was a Rebuilding contractor when his dad worked at American Hoist in St. Paul, MN.

Back then they used HSS because carbide was to expensive as were diamond wheels that were the only way to sharpen carbide scraper blades, the green wheel left scratches as they were to coarse.  I invited Dennis to attend your first scraping class in St. Paul.  I mentored you in many machinist tricks, let you copy many of my text books, gave you a copy of my DVD on how to scrape.  and I suspect I introduced you to this Forum when we me talking on Practical Machinist forum when you asked for info on your turret lathe.  Back then I was also I was the lead moderator in this Hobby Machinist rebuilding forum.  Nelson Timken the originator of Hobby Machinist asked me to be the moderator as we met on another forum.  I never mentioned using HSS to you.  It may have been in the Connelly book I gave you, but again it was written in the 1950's when carbide was expensive.  I used HSS steel when I was a kid and stopped using it in the 1970's.  The hand scraper the OP is using is made in Germany and like Sanvik it comes with a Carbide blade.  Anyone learning to scrape in the 2020's uses Carbide as it makes scraping cast iron a dream.  Using HSS makes a beginner spend 1/2 the time sharpening the dull blade.  Today one can buy a diamond lapping wheel for $15.00 on ebay and make a sharpening lap it attaches too.  It's silly in my opinion to  use a sharpening stone to sharpen HSS today.  I now have taught scraping for over 45 years and have over 40,000 students with students around the globe.  One can find how to make a lapping machine by Googling "Glendo Lap alternative. To the members I am the only Professional Machine Rebuilder who writes in this Forum who has been doing it for more then 56 years.  We were paid to rebuild machinery, it wasn't a hobby,  I helped my Dad when I was aa 12 yr old kid in our basement, helped during summer vacation and started working full time in 1971.  I am now 72 and there are only a few people who can teach scraping who are members here and in my opinion there is no one else from MN is one.  There are 3 or 4 in California who I can think of.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

I can get a deal for members who want a copy of the Edward Connelly book "Machine Tool Reconditioning"  The publisher made a small error and printed some books with some missing pages.  I am friends with the Copyright owner and he will sell me  those books to me for a deal,  I can photo copy the missing pages and insert them in the books.  I also sell the good book with no missing pages.  If you want to buy them, Private message me.


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2022)

@Richard King 2,
I may be wrong, but I hopefully was reading @Ultradog MN's post in the context of using HSS, handwheels, etc and before carbide and DROs on a lathe,  AND ALSO hand scraping before power scraping.  I think there is some merit to that much, but I'm not going to try hand scraping with HSS.  At some point you go back to the point of rubbing sticks together to heat your cave (house).  I'm not that old, but I have to agree with your point and would like to actually use the machines I'm rebuilding so making reasonable progress is important.

I see a lot of YouTube videos where a machine is rebuilt end-to-end and then put into service.  I'm taking a bit different approach and "tinkering".  I get machines useable, then decide what I want to improve.  Fix one thing and then use it again for a while.   Then fix/improve/rebuild the next thing.  I've fixed/repaired clutches, bearings/bushings, gears, motors and electronics, VFDs.  And learned basic machinist ideas of accuracy, measurement.  Want to add scraping and way improvement to my skillset.   There is some level of foundation that is helpful to build skills upon.

I'll find something to measure my hand scraper's radius against.  Guess a soda can rim may be in the right ballpark.  Pictures when I get a chance.


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> I always wince at the the price too, but right tool for the job and all that. I have enough jobs for one to justify it, but still hoping to trip over one for a low ball price. Mike


Mike,
Sounds like we're in similar predicaments, although I suspect you have a little more skill in this area than I do.  But I'm learning, and having fun at it.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

Matt Critcherly one of my many class students in Madison WI made a simple sheet to measure the blade radius.  He used a draftsman compass and drew circles on 1/4" graph paper and then laminated it.  Another friend uses tin cans like you said....soup can, tunafish can and a coffee can.  

There used to be a guy selling Sanvik Carbide blades on eBay for $25.00 each.  I didn't see him anymore.

I found these.








						Carbide Machinist Scraper Inserts Cast Iron Scraping Blades 20x30mm, 30x30mm  | eBay
					

The 20x30x2mm inserts are good for general to finish scraping. The inserts will still need sharpening and honing, this can be done with a regular set of aluminium oxide wheels, but for the best results finishing should be done with a diamond wheel and/or hone.



					www.ebay.com
				




You can use a diamond cut off wheel to make a smaller blade









						Tungsten Carbide Scraper Blades 2.5"/65mm (2 Pack) fits Harris/Axus/ProDec tools  | eBay
					

Pictures show 3 of the products that these blades are designed to fit : Harris, ProDec & Axus Decor. Final 3 pictures show our blades in a ProDec scraper, to show the extra width of our blades. Harris Contractor scraper (Model No. 3670).



					www.ebay.com


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

It will be my honor to help you learn to scrape Rabler as I have several members here on Hobby Machinist I have taught to scrape.  I will be driving out to Mechanicsburg,  PA in the upcoming months to teach a class for DIPEC (US military machine rebuilding depot) to another class of their Apprentices.  I have taught all there Journeymen to scrape over the last 30 years) and I can swing by your shop in Indiana to show you.  You can buy me dinner ..  



			Maintenance Services


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## Janderso (Oct 14, 2022)

benmychree said:


> I was given a new model Biax from the estate of an old friend


Well isn't that a nice gift!!
Using Richard's Biax machines at his scraping class made me a follower of those wonderful machines.
Most of us can only dream.


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## Janderso (Oct 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> @Ultradog MN
> I do have Connely’s book, have read enough of RK’s comments about it to grab a copy.


As a side note, I too have Connely's book and mine is signed by Richard King 
Unfortunately his signature has not made me a better machine rebuilder


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> @Ultradog MN
> I do have Connely’s book, have read enough of RK’s comments about it to grab a copy.


Did I sell it to you?  I sell them on eBay, I also sell my DVD /HSB stick on how to scrape and my classes.


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2022)

@Richard King 2
Thank you for your time and advise.  My grandfather was a machinist during WWII in Fond Du Lac, Wisc for Giddings and Lewis.  He and I got along well, although his little shop at the back of the garage was definitely OFF LIMITS for us as kids.  He always spoke very highly of hand scraping and those skilled in that art.   I would certainly buy you dinner if you were willing to stop in Indiana!!  Let me know the best way to contact you privately.


Richard King 2 said:


> It will be my honor to help you learn to scrape Rabler as I have several members here on Hobby Machinist I have taught to scrape.  I will be driving out to Mechanicsburg,  PA in the upcoming months to teach a class for DIPEC (US military machine rebuilding depot) to another class of their Apprentices.  I have taught all there Journeymen to scrape over the last 30 years) and I can swing by your shop in Indiana to show you.  You can buy me dinner ..
> 
> 
> 
> Maintenance Services


Here are pictures of my scraper and latest pass.  I can only work a few hours a day before my shoulders get sore.  I'm using a full body technique as I've seen your students do.  It is still tiring.  Looks like a roll of duct tape has an I.D. of 2.5", so I just used that as a reference for my scraper.

The benchtop surface plate I'm using is a cheap import.  I'm hoping to get my 3x4 granite plate calibrated at some point.  It sits in the shop office, which is cleaner and has better temperature control.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

Janderso said:


> As a side note, I too have Connely's book and mine is signed by Richard King
> Unfortunately his signature has not made me a better machine rebuilder


Janderso was one of my A+ students in a Vacaville CA class.  He surprised me as he was a F student at first...lol...then all of a sudden his light bulb went on and he "got it"  He scraped a big angle block....  I remember my A+ students


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Janderso was one of my A+ students in a Vacaville CA class.  He surprised me as he was a F student at first...lol...then all of a sudden his light bulb went on and he "got it"  He scraped a big angle block....  I remember my A+ students


@Janderso was my inspiration for building the diamond lapper in the above picture.


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## Janderso (Oct 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> @Richard King 2
> Thank you for your time and advise.  My grandfather was a machinist during WWII in Fond Du Lac, Wisc for Giddings and Lewis.  He and I got along well, although his little shop at the back of the garage was definitely OFF LIMITS for us as kids.  He always spoke very highly of hand scraping and those skilled in that art.   I would certainly buy you dinner if you were willing to stop in Indiana!!  Let me know the best way to contact you privately.
> 
> Here are pictures of my scraper and latest pass.  I can only work a few hours a day before my shoulders get sore.  I'm using a full body technique as I've seen your students do.  It is still tiring.  Looks like a roll of duct tape has an I.D. of 2.5", so I just used that as a reference for my scraper.
> ...


Nice job on the lapping machine.
Richard asked us a while back to show our “Glendo Accu-turn” replacements. They were expensive and now out of business?
I enjoyed making mine. I use it for all kinds of stuff. Mine is way more robust than it needs to be but the gear motor was the heart of the project.

Sourcing the slow speed motor on a budget is very difficult. I found mine on Ebay, sold as new, open box. These are >$900 but I paid less than $200 if I recall correctly. A Made in USA Bison motor, I got lucky.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

That looks good on the blade radius.  Hold the scraper up + in back or stand on a riser block so your handle is about 20 degrees to the table.  You will get a smaller or thinner cut the higher the back is, wider the lower the back is.  It looks like who ever milled the SE they head was crooked or not swept in.  It happens as one of my famous students forget to sweep his mill head in and made the middle low.  (Keith Rucker)  Once you get one side touching all the way along the edge you can stop scraping that side and only scrape the other side and tip scrape in the SE.  A trick to the trade.  Less scraping mean not so sore arms....lol...you also need to buy or make a pad on the wood handle end.  Many buy a rubber sanding disk and screw it to the end.  Others turn a round wood handle.  I'll look for a picture.  Pic L to R -  1) A student who took a class in Easton MD showing an adjustable or telescopic plastic tube handle witha rubber pad on the end.  He mounted a Sanvik hanle into the other end.  2) a MIT Boston class member bump scraping with his hand on a rubber pad, he is using a magnifier light to see better 3) MIT class again student is using his upper body to body scrape his practice piece.  All were using carbide blades.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

Scroll to minute 5:15 and see how to bump scrape.  I never knew he was going to post it on You Tube and I was being silly in the beginning.  LOL...


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## Janderso (Oct 14, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Janderso was one of my A+ students in a Vacaville CA class.  He surprised me as he was a F student at first...lol...then all of a sudden his light bulb went on and he "got it"  He scraped a big angle block....  I remember my A+ students


Thanks Richard. The light went on for me when I was chasing my tail with that 12” angle plate.
I don’t know if I am describing this correctly, but you have to bring the high points down to equal the low points. In other words, you won’t make any progress until your low points are the high points, then you can begin to make a flat surface.

I’m sure Richard can clarify my point.

I’m still very proud of my first scraping project (before I tackled the 12” plate)


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

Sounds and looks good.   I need to have breakfast.... Janderso ---I prefer to have my students teach...  Thank You for showing your work.  !!


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## Papa Charlie (Oct 14, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Did I sell it to you?  I sell them on eBay, I also sell my DVD /HSB stick on how to scrape and my classes.


I was actually looking at purchasing the "Machine Tool Reconditioning" book on Ebay. Went back and looked and it was from you. 

Small world.


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## Mill Lee farm (Oct 14, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> It will be my honor to help you learn to scrape Rabler as I have several members here on Hobby Machinist I have taught to scrape.  I will be driving out to Mechanicsburg,  PA in the upcoming months to teach a class for DIPEC (US military machine rebuilding depot) to another class of their Apprentices.  I have taught all there Journeymen to scrape over the last 30 years) and I can swing by your shop in Indiana to show you.  You can buy me dinner ..
> 
> 
> 
> Maintenance Services


New Cumberland Navy Depot?!? 
Mr. King, that is 45 minutes away from me in Shippensburg
Can >I< buy you dinner??? 

(I also didn't know DLA had a maintenance department of this caliber! I just know them for supplying us (slowly/never ) parts at our depot LOL)


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

Not to make this a sales pitch, but if anyone wants a book, order it from me here and I'll give a forum discount.  eBay charges more now then they used to.


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## DAM 79 (Oct 14, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> That looks good on the blade radius.  Hold the scraper up + in back or stand on a riser block so your handle is about 20 degrees to the table.  You will get a smaller or thinner cut the higher the back is, wider the lower the back is.  It looks like who ever milled the SE they head was crooked or not swept in.  It happens as one of my famous students forget to sweep his mill head in and made the middle low.  (Keith Rucker)  Once you get one side touching all the way along the edge you can stop scraping that side and only scrape the other side and tip scrape in the SE.  A trick to the trade.  Less scraping mean not so sore arms....lol...you also need to buy or make a pad on the wood handle end.  Many buy a rubber sanding disk and screw it to the end.  Others turn a round wood handle.  I'll look for a picture.  Pic L to R -  1) A student who took a class in Easton MD showing an adjustable or telescopic plastic tube handle witha rubber pad on the end.  He mounted a Sanvik hanle into the other end.  2) a MIT Boston class member bump scraping with his hand on a rubber pad, he is using a magnifier light to see better 3) MIT class again student is using his upper body to body scrape his practice piece.  All were using carbide blades.


Easton Maryland that looks like it is at tuckahoe machine shop . Do you think you will hold another class there at some I would definitely be interested in attending?!


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

rabler said:


> I have a few lathes where I want to clean up the cross slide and compound, so I figured I start by making a straight edge.  Got this casting from dgfoster a couple years ago.  Just getting around to this, milled the faces, and just started scraping.  Of course it would be nice if I had a suitable surface grinder that worked, but that's another restoration project yet to be tackled.   The bottom was milled on the horizontal part of my Grizzly horizontal/vertical mill.  The angle face was milled on the K&T 3k vertical with a 6" face mill.  The K&T definitely left a flatter face.
> 
> I suppose if I'm going to a lot of this I'll have to invest in a power scraper.  Obviously the biax are the only real name in the game but I can see trying out a demolition saw conversion before dropping the $2k+ on a biax.  That way I'll appreciate the real thing  But the surface grinder would probably be a better start! (And thus, he heads further down the rabbit hole)
> 
> ...


Have you checked your stone to see if it is flat?  clean your stone in a sink and use some glass cleaner and scotch brite or put some 200 grit sand paper on your clean surface plate, squirt the sand paper with glass cleaner and rub the stone on the sand paper.  If you have another plate, that would be better.  Then clean of your plate and carefully set the clean stone on your plate after wiping both with a bare hand to "feel" the dirt.  Then check the pivot point on the stove by hinging it.  The stone could be convex or high in the middle and rubbing it back and forth on the SE it gets low in the middle.  You should buy a Norton MS-24 tapered slip stone - or a medium grit Indian grit stone.  Some will grind a groove around the larger stone and break it in two.  also is the plate siting on 3 points?   You can use 1" x 1" inner tube rubber super glued on the bottom of the plate.  Located at 30% from ends, 2 -30% from the side and the other end in the middle.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

DAM 79 said:


> Easton Maryland that looks like it is at tuckahoe machine shop . Do you think you will hold another class there at some I would definitely be interested in attending?!


Yes that was in the Tuckaho museum.  One of the attendee's Paolo volunteers there and does do some scraping classes there.  He was a A++ student and has rebuilt some machines there.  The Museum is all sorts of thinks, Steam Engines and as the pictures, the machines are belt driven. He lives in Baltimore.   He is the guy in the checkered shirt.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

Tuckahoe Steam and Gass Association Machine Shop Museum
					

Visit our Machine Shop Museum




					tuckahoesteam.org


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## DAM 79 (Oct 14, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Yes that was in the Tuckaho museum.  One of the attendee's Paolo volunteers there and does do some scraping classes there.  He was a A++ student and has rebuilt some machines there.  The Museum is all sorts of thinks, Steam Engines and as the pictures, the machines are belt driven. He lives in Baltimore.   He is the guy in the checkered shirt.


Ok yes I have talked to him several times when I stop in there when they have the antique tractor pulls etc. I have also talked to Dan who also helps out there they have a awesome set up there with all the old machines and this fall I plan to stop out on the weekends when they hold there shop classes to meet some fellow hobby machinist


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Have you checked your stone to see if it is flat? clean your stone in a sink and use some glass cleaner and scotch brite or put some 200 grit sand paper on your clean surface plate, squirt the sand paper with glass cleaner and rub the stone on the sand paper. If you have another plate, that would be better. Then clean of your plate and carefully set the clean stone on your plate after wiping both with a bare hand to "feel" the dirt. Then check the pivot point on the stove by hinging it. The stone could be convex or high in the middle and rubbing it back and forth on the SE it gets low in the middle. You should buy a Norton MS-24 tapered slip stone - or a medium grit Indian grit stone. Some will grind a groove around the larger stone and break it in two. also is the plate siting on 3 points? You can use 1" x 1" inner tube rubber super glued on the bottom of the plate. Located at 30% from ends, 2 -30% from the side and the other end in the middle.


I'll work on those steps.  I've hit my limit for hand scraping for a couple days so its time to take a break, too sore.

 I've been using the bare-hand dirt check on the plate, and checking the pivot points.  I need to put that surface plate on some feet and clean the stone.  I can see the stone is only polishing the outside edge of the straight edge casting, same area as the surface plate blues it, so I don't think the stone is causing a depression issue.  Rather, I think it is like you pointed out w/ Keith Rucker, I didn't have the horizontal mill trammed right.  The other face of the straight edge is much flatter.  I did the two faces on different mills, quite some time appart.   This experience will make sure I do it right the next time too.

Thanks for taking the time to make all of these suggestions!


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

Some folks slide a coolant hose up the handle or wrap it with rubberized electrical tape or wear leather gloves.  I have also had students drill and tap holes in the steel handle so they can put a vertical handle on the scraper handle.  Use a round rubber bike steering handle..  Once you put a rubber sanding pad on the wood end and push with your body and not your hands and arms you will feel better.  Learrning to scrape especially when the blade is dull or lapped wrong it makes hand scraping a real "pain".


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## Janderso (Oct 14, 2022)

Papa Charlie said:


> I was actually looking at purchasing the "Machine Tool Reconditioning" book on Ebay. Went back and looked and it was from you.
> 
> Small world.


As I recall, Richard has a colorful opinion of Mr. Connelly.


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## Janderso (Oct 14, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Some folks slide a coolant hose up the handle or wrap it with rubberized electrical tape or wear leather gloves.  I have also had students drill and tap holes in the steel handle so they can put a vertical handle on the scraper handle.  Use a round rubber bike steering handle..  Once you put a rubber sanding pad on the wood end and push with your body and not your hands and arms you will feel better.  Learrning to scrape especially when the blade is dull or lapped wrong it makes hand scraping a real "pain".


Richard,
Your video shows the method you use to hand scrape. It's poetry in motion.
Do you have the video available to the forum? in the database? 
I know it's copyrighted material so I hope I'm not stepping out of place here.
Lots to learn in the video.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 14, 2022)

I still sell them on eBay, so no I don't show it online for free.  There are plenty of my students who have made you tube shows.  Search "Richard King Scraping" to see many of them.  One student who isn't on the list is Jan Sverre Haugjord,  He has attended 6 classes over the years.  Here in USA and in Europe. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD1jVjhwma9Ehj8BQqDMPHw


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## ddickey (Oct 15, 2022)

For me finding a comfortable position that felt natural was a real pain. I like to push the scraper against my lower body so I need a really low table or stand on a bench. I'd like to get a hydraulic table so I can change height easily. One thing I did notice is once I developed some hand, eye, muscle coordination in that comfortable spot I got better in the spot where it didn't feel natural. For example sometimes I'll butt the scraper on my bicep and use more of my arms and upper body if I need to. Also Rich had me put an ink mark on my blade right in the middle. That was a great tip to help you hit your spot you're aiming for.
Length of your scraper and flex are two other things you will develop a preference for over time.
Some sort of a handle on the lower end of the scraper would work really well I think. Might have to try that this winter.


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## rabler (Nov 1, 2022)

Ordered another brayer as I broke mine.  Getting the right thickness of dykem high spot blue takes some rolling.  Appears canode blue isn't available in the US.  I used a 12"x12" piece of granite tile as a sandpaper backing to flatten out my stone.  Got one face rough scraped, working on rough scraping the other.  When I get them both roughed to a few PPI, I'll start on my finer scraping technique.  I spend maybe a half hour a day or so working on this, not much, but what I can handle without too much of a challenge.  Definitely a situation where old eyes do well with lots of light.


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## vtcnc (Nov 1, 2022)

rabler said:


> Ordered another brayer as I broke mine.


Brayer??


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## mcostello (Nov 1, 2022)

Ink roller.


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## Uglydog (Nov 1, 2022)

Instead of the brayer have you tried a lint free very dry rag balled up and wrapped with a lint free very dry wrapper and tied very tight with a string?
This applicator seems to work well for me. 
Be sure to always put you applicator in a clean jar and put the lid on every time you put it back every thing is an enemy to an even application. Also, be careful not to contaminate your blue. I've not had any luck with canode. Perhaps User Error, but it was seemed alot more like latex paint. 
I can capture a photo of the ball type applicator if you'd like. 

Daryl
MN


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## Winegrower (Nov 1, 2022)

I admire what you guys are doing here, and I really wish I wanted to do this too…but no.


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## Uglydog (Nov 1, 2022)

Also, consider experimenting with different thicknesses of blue.
They will tell you different things. 
Consider a very light coating of blue on your datum. Then use a sharpe to circle the high spots and maybe a dot on the shiny very high spots. Then come through with a slightly thicker coat thicker coat. If you have a lot to take off then you can do a version of step scraping. First the shinys, then the circled area, then all the heavy blue.
Willingness to experiment is a huge skill. But, yes this is a huge amount of work....

Daryl
MN


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## rabler (Nov 1, 2022)

Uglydog said:


> Also, consider experimenting with different thicknesses of blue. ...


Good advice.

What works best for me so far has been to use a bit of mineral spirits to thin the dykem hi spot.  Put a very small dot of dykem on my surface plate and then just barely get the tip of an acid brush wet in mineral spirits and use that to do an initial distribution of the dykem, and then spread it with the roller until any wet spots are gone and it is uniformly distributed on the working area of the plate.  Otherwise it is too thick or uneven to give a meaningful marking.

A sharpy is a necessary tool.  I like to use green to contrast with the dykem, as it is a bit harder to wipe off then the dykem.


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## rabler (Nov 1, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> I admire what you guys are doing here, and I really wish I wanted to do this too…but no.


I certainly am not going to make a hobby out of scraping machines, but I have a few a couple that I've rehabbed mechanically (bearings, bushings, oil systems, electrical etc) that I'd like to see the ways cleaned up.  We'll see how far I get.  This is my getting started effort, get a working 18" straight edge for bluing dovetails.  Dabbling to get my feet wet, or my hands blue in this case. 

I'm going to focus on this for a few days while the paint on the rotary table rebuild drys, and work on getting my RaspberryPI set up as a PICO development computer.


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## extropic (Nov 1, 2022)

rabler said:


> A sharpy is a necessary tool.  I like to use green to contrast with the dykem, as it is a bit harder to wipe off then the dykem.



I'm not sure I understand how you're using the Sharpie. Do you 'Sharpie" the entire surface of the workpiece before you attempt a Dykem print?

If that's wrong, please elucidate.


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## rabler (Nov 1, 2022)

extropic said:


> I'm not sure I understand how you're using the Sharpie. Do you 'Sharpie" the entire surface of the workpiece before you attempt a Dykem print?
> 
> If that's wrong, please elucidate.


The blue hi spot tells a story.  Tiny donuts are circles around hard contact (hi) points. The faint points are not quite contacts, etc.  You sit and look at the pattern and decipher that story. Pivoting and rapping corners can add more to that story, trying to visualize the surface countour.  From there you come up with a scraping strategy.  Its easy to smear the blue, but a sharpie better allows a strategy to be mapped onto the surface that can be followed while scraping.  Light checkboard, heavy roughing, step scraping, etc.   So evaluate the hi spot, make a strategy and record it with the sharpie, then follow the strategy with the scraping.


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## rabler (Nov 1, 2022)

Another part of the story is looking where stoning polishes the surface.  Those tend to be more localized hi spots vs the generally global story from the surface plate, although a convex surface can be tricky


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 2, 2022)

First off, I consider Dykem as the best ink for scraping, but you wear it for days if it gets into your skin.  Rabler, spread the ink on with a soft foam paint roller or a DAPRA soft foam ink roller first to spread it evenly and use that when you rough scrape.  Use this foam roller long before using a hard Brayer.   You have to run your hand through the ink after applying it to be sure there is no crud in it.  You can't feel crud with anything other then your fingers.  That's why I prefer water soluble ink like Canode, Stuarts Engineering paste (from UK), or Charbbonnel as you can wash it off your hands.  After you apply the Dykem and feel for the crud..  then put your straight edge on the blue and rub it.  count to 10 as you rub so you can highlight the high spots.  The longer you rub the more the ink rubs off the higher high spots.  They average .0002" to a .001" depending on what your scraping.   

Once you get 20 PPI and you want more, rub the SE on a dry or no blued area to shine up the high spots.  The highest ones will get polished and shine like a mirror, the high spots a tenth lower will look black.  I only use a hard brayer roller when I am scraping 30 to 40 PPI.  In the old days before I used foam rollers I would take a red rag and fold it into 4ths and then roll it up in a wrap around it with electricians tape. Then dab Dykem on the plate and spread it with the end of the rag.  Once the rag is used a while it gets saturated and gets shinny and won't leave lint on the plate.  That's why it is imperative you wipe the bluing and un blued area with your hand feeling for crud.  I have also used hard 1/2 thick white felt.  Where are you ?  You can call me as I am sure I can help you as I have helped 40,000 people to learn to scrape over the years.  Many of these people answering you on here are my students.    Also you should use put on a highlighter to dull the shinny metal.   We used to use red lead, now I use red Charbnonel ink diluted with Windex. You need to just leave a thing layer on the bare metal.  wiped clean and not sticky.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 2, 2022)

Here is something I wrote today on Practical Machinist.  That forum has new ownership so I think it is OK we share posts.
The post starts with this You Tube show.   Then I wrote about it.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 2, 2022)

The scraper hand (tech) is not aiming at each high spot, he is randomly scraping the area on the first scrape, this is not the typical Japanese method of scoop scraping. It is similar to a BIAX power scraper way of scraping. He leaves a burr at the front each scrape mark. When you scoop scrape you lift the blade out and you don't leave a burr. He is scraping what I call "crosses" The width of each scrape is good as the width of the scrape mark and the opening of the scrape is about the same, which is perfect. He should also separate the the distance of each line as they are too close together. Look at the scrapes end to end as they are long openings because the ends touch creating a trough or long low spot. Over stoning? That depends what grit the stone is or how dirty the stone is. He might be using a ground stone as they don't take off much as it is rubbed. I don't like diamond ground stones until I am scraping 30 to 40 PPI

I do like the use of the Highlighter or it looks like "red lead" as it dulls the shinny high spots. and it's easier on the eyes when scraping. They don't show everything after the stone or before, or clean the surface after scraping with Windex or mineral spirits so the stone doesn't plug up, or use a clean hand to wipe off the surface or they don't show him doing it before rubbing the blued plate though. His white cotton gloves look dirty. Wearing the gloves helps on the hands from getting sore then not wearing gloves.

It appears he switched hand scrapers on the 2nd scraping as the width of the scrape mark is narrower. Or he ground the radius smaller. Most will have 2 scrapers, so you don't have to replace the carbide as often. I prefer a clamped on carbide insert and not brazed on as brazed you have 2 blade (flipped) and clamped you have 8 sharp sides. I like how his scraper bends too, compared to a stiff handle.

It was edited to that many points as I suspect that was 3 or 4 more scrapes after the first scrape. It doesn't show him cross hatching or changing directions at a 90 degrees to get the checkerboard pattern after each scrape, so its edited. Also he avoids the low areas, goes around the "no blued areas" in the 2nd scrape which is the way it's done.

Again he is not aiming at the blued high spots, he is scraping high and low area's and it will get more points, but takes longer to scrape to get more points. I call what he is doing "Machine gunning" he needs to be a "snipper" and aim at each high spot (kill factor is better then spraying all over the place. . If you aim it takes less time. It takes hand / eye coordination to hit the individual high spot and is more difficult then random machine gunning the area scraping which you do in the beginning. My students can testify this as I have them random scrape in the beginning to get a checkerboard pattern, reversing directions after each pass on the surface as the bearing comes out faster.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 2, 2022)

Here is he complete thread on PM.  I write on both forums as they both spread the word. 





						Does Richard King sell a second, advanced rebuilding video?
					

I go back and review the video material from Rich's first CD, the one we were given in class, from time to time. I find it very helpful as there are many things to keep in mind. Today I wonder if there is a second more advanced tape available.  metalmagpie



					www.practicalmachinist.com


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## rabler (Nov 2, 2022)

The above youtube video is getting a pretty good chip from scraping.  I get some chip but a lot finer.  Is that a technique issue, or is the above video not cast iron?


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 2, 2022)

If you haven't measured your depth of the scrape marks take a magnetic base and attach it to a1 2 3 block and set it on the bottom of your straight edge  with a  .0001" indicator.  Put the indicator close to the 1 2 3 block and put the stem in a scraped low spot then slowly move the 1 2 3 block enough to move the indicator onto a high spot.  Check 3 or 4 low to high spots.  The minimum should be .0002" and the maximum is .001" / average the spots and if you have around .0004" your good.  I would think the low scrape spots in the Japanese show is about 3 to 4 tenths.  It looks like it's more but it isn't.  Oh he is scraping IRON...  If your not getting a minimum of .0002" you are chicken scratching...lol  or that's what we call it when you afraid to push down.  I used to say push down until the scraper handle bends.

My good friend Keith Rucker came up with this idea when I was teaching a class inside his shop down in Georgia.  He walked up to his house and brought down his bathroom scale and I put the hand scraper on it and pressed down to what I felt was the right pressure.  8 pounds downward pressure is what you need to do. to get the carbide to cut good and to get the right scraping low spot.  Always press down the same pressure weather your roughing (paint scraping) or pin pointing going for 40 points.  Do not lighten when you get more points.  keep the depth the same, just shorten your length and use a rounder radius.  90 or 60 for roughing x 1" long for roughing and a 20 to 40 radius x down to 1/8" long.  start long doing the checkerboard pattern and as you get more points shorten you stoke slowly, say 3/4" next time 1/2" next time as you get more points 3/8 - 1/4" then 1/8"    all the same depth.   Did you notice I tell who taught me something to the public, I don't pretend I figured it out myself as some do.  Many Never give me the credit for what I taught them.  If you look on you tube famous people who scrape mention me as their teacher.  Tom Lipton of Oxtool, Adam Booth or Abom79, Keith Rucker of Vintage Machine, Stefan Gottswinter, John Saunders of NYC CNC, etc.   Just type in the search area on you tube "Richard King Scraping" and see many of them.  PS:  Press down 8 pounds when using a power scraper too.

Diagrams I have inside my school booklet of PPI nd Percentage,  and An award BIAX German gave me for teaching in Austria.  Measuring the depth of scrape marks with a tester we had in Austria,  Also some students inside my class in my shop.  Duane Dickey who is a member and The VP of Bushe Precision


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2022)

I sent you an Invoice for a HSB stick.  I sell sticks and DVD's.  on eBay,  I am giving to a Hobby Machinist discount of about $20.00 off. I see you just paid it.  I'll mail it today.  Thanks  It shows handscraping, Biax Power scraping and 1/2 moon oil pocket flaking.  It's 60 minutes long.


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## rabler (Nov 3, 2022)

@Richard King 2
As I've said, I'd love to be able to take one of your classes.  But I deal with Crohn's disease, and traveling usually leads to ugly problems.  I've paid your invoice and look forward to getting the copy of your scraping video.  I appreciate your advice here and hope other's can benefit too.

Here's some of my rough scraping.  Measuring the depth with an indicator shows I'm getting around .0005 depth.




Here's two consecutive bluings, fairly heavy, with dykem.  Between these I step scraped from the left edge, two steps.  Trying to pivot the face down toward the area not making contact.  If you click these thumbnails open you can tell that the left edge just below center is still not making contact.  (It still shows milling marks in the small area outlined in the second picture below.  It hinges wide, only about two inches in from either end, so it's not convex.




Here's a little bit of light off the surface that gives some indication of the scraping.  I'm scraping small scrapes near the front edge, so that appears to me more like a finished scraping.  The central portion appears to have gotten over smoothed from several consecutive stonings.  I think one mistake I made when milling this was to skim it just enough to clean off the surface, when I should have gone another .050 or so to get further from the surface hardening from cooling?



I'm guessing that in another roughing pass I'll have contact more or less over the full surface and be ready to move on to scraping for more PPI.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2022)

Your scrape marks look to narrow.  Almost looks like a blade corner scratch.   But I see you have rounded your corners off a lot.  Another way to get narrow scrapes is if your holding the back of the handle to high and your in the small radius of the blade.  The Japanese video shows the right width cut and how close the handle is to the way.  I would say  10 to 20 degrees is good.  Also try to scrape cross hatch or X X scrapes.  Stand at 45 degrees to the way, scrape from that position and then move you body so you scrape 90 degree's from the last position.  

When I machined ways I used a fly cutter on my last pass to get a smooth finish.  Another thing you need to do is when you blue up the first time and along one edge you see a "ridge" or it is hitting along the edge all the way along the way about 1/16 or 1/8" in.  and it is hitting on the other surfaces of the way.  Is to remove the ridge and don't scrape the rest of the way as you missed that ridge or on ways you didn't machine and just scraped, those are unworn original surfaces.  There is a good example of this on a Lathe.  On South Bend lathes it is called the "South-bend Ridge"

I say to measure the ridge and then file or scrape it off or if you scrape it and the rest of the blued ways, your changing the geometry and when you go to match fit it to the opposite way it runs against you have to change the original way angle to fit together.   If I were you I would stop working on your machine and practice on a piece of scrap iron or on your straight edge.  I am going to show you something else you need to do in the following post.


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## rabler (Nov 3, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> If I were you I would stop working on your machine and practice on a piece of scrap iron or on your straight edge.


All of this is on a straight edge, none of it is on a machine's ways. ??


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2022)

At 26.40 minutes he discovers the parallel has a hump in it.  Rabler your ways look humped.  You can use a gage block sideways to hinge it on the on the narrow width.  In the beginning he shows how I taught him to use the Canode Yellow and Bluing.  It's a good You Tube show.





Here is another show he does too:


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2022)

rabler said:


> All of this is on a straight edge, none of it is on a machine's ways. ??


Your making some mistakes and I think you need to practice on something that isn't as important of the machine ways. so you don't make it worse. Less work on the good machine ways.  How are you going to check the parallelism of the 2 ways?


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## rabler (Nov 3, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Your making some mistakes and I think you need to practice on something that isn't as important of the machine ways. so you don't make it worse. Less work on the good machine ways.  How are you going to check the parallelism of the 2 ways?


_I am not scraping a machine._  I don't understand where you got this idea.  I am *only* scraping a straight edge.  The pictures above are all of a straight edge cast by Dennis Foster (dgfoster on another forum).  I realize you're trying to help but I don't know how to make this any more clear.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2022)

You need to learn to not over stone it too.  After you scrape it, clean off the old blue and then run your fingers over to feel the burrs, then stone it.  I use a medium grit Indian stone.  I press down and wipe the surface with the clean stone one time and then feel for the burrs, if they still are there, then stone again.  Over stoning will eliminate the burr and the high spots.  If you blue upand you se a number of - - thing marks those are burrs and you need to stone a bit more.  I only wet stone it about every 5th stoning.  Don't wet stone it every-time as that will increase the the percentage.  You want 40 to 60% not 90 to 100%.  I showed the % chart I give to my students in their orkbook.

Also here is another of my students and he shows some good drawing.
He shows a Renz scraper, but he now sold his Renz and has a BIAX.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2022)

rabler said:


> @Richard King 2
> As I've said, I'd love to be able to take one of your classes.  But I deal with Crohn's disease, and traveling usually leads to ugly problems.  I've paid your invoice and look forward to getting the copy of your scraping video.  I appreciate your advice here and hope other's can benefit too.
> 
> Here's some of my rough scraping.  Measuring the depth with an indicator shows I'm getting around .0005 depth.
> ...


Oops. it looks like a dovetail way.   oops...


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2022)

Be back later.  I am going to go Vote  absentee as I will be teaching a class in Oklahoma next week.   Stefan's show above is a good one, showing his hand scraper like the one I use.  With a pad on the end plus he talks about a HSS blade vs a Carbide blade as we discussed earlier in the thread.

I put your HSB stick in the envelope and will mail it when I go out.  Flat rate 2 day -  you should get it on Sat or Monday.  Thanks.


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## ddickey (Nov 3, 2022)

This video shows the angle of attack pretty well.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2022)

Looks good...   the is roughing in the beginning where his scrapes are touching ends.  To the left there is no bluing,  Then in the 2nd part he is a "sniper" aiming and hitting the high spotys.  Both show the same pressure down but narrower and shorter scrape marks.  Also see the angle of the handle to the work.


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## rabler (Nov 4, 2022)

Progress.  Still have a few low areas before I try going for more PPI.

I would have to say, this reminds me of my private pilot exam flight, simulated engine failure.  The examiners pulls the throttle, says "engine failure", and you pick out a landing field, set up and make the approach.   The examiners starts yammering on about not flying over the chicken sheds, the farmers get really ****** as it kills chickens, etc.  I get a little rattled, then tune him out.  If he doesn't like it he can give me power back.  I ignore him and set up.   He eventually says "good", set the throttle back to climb power and I climb out (probably about 200 ft up).    I ask, "The chickens were a distraction?"  He replies "more or less".  I later learned there is a famous airspace lawsuit settled in favor of a chicken farmer.  Anyway, sometimes you need to ignore the copious internet comments and focus on getting it done.  I've seen it before WRT scraping discussions, and like other manual skills, you need to find the kernel of truth and ignore the distractions, and work on the muscle memory.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 4, 2022)

Looks better.  Your flying story  and your photo reminds me of a trick. My Dad shared this story with me when he was alive.   60 years ago or so,  My Dad had crew of men work alone scraping in a JIG Bore at 3M in Saint Paul, MN back then they only hand scraped.  They called him and said they were done scraping the top of the 30 x 48" table top.  You scrape the table top to 40 points per inch (PPI) and measures from the spindle .0001".  He first looked at it and he said it looked odd, so he said "clean it off and blue it off again."  The protested and said " NO it's Good, let leave it"   He insisted and they did and after they blued it up again, there were several areas that weren't touching or holes.   He then said he looked at them and said "Where is the pencil?"  and he said it again "Where is the pencil, I was in your shoes before and know how you can use a pencil eraser to dab in the low spots,"   LOL...   They never admitted doing that, but he knew.  I see you have a blue Sharpie laying next to your part.....lol...


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 4, 2022)

So what did you do to improve?  Scraping 40 PPI and 40 to 50 % percentage of points (POP) is difficult and as I say in Taiwan "soenen sun chow"  (Practice makes perfect")   Yeah once you practice eye hand coordination it as anything it gets better.   One thing I can say it your trying to get it to good to fast.  That's an issue many rookies have.  So next time scrape or semi rough a bit longer.  I mailed the HSB stick yesterday 2 day mail and inside the envelope I put in a couple copies of pages of my work booklet I give out to students show the PPI chart I attached here.  Plus a couple others.  One thing is to scrape xoxoxoxo  X being a scrape and O being an open area as in the one spot in the last video I linked to when John was talking to Lance you don't have to scrape every blue spot or you will leave a long not touching hole.  I see that on your part xxxxx  all touching creating a long hole.  Also wipe off a clean spot on your plate and rub the blued SE on the clean area to shine or polis the high spots.  That is also in the video.  Keith Rucker and John both take a black sharpie and dot the shinny high spots.  You still need to press down harder as your depth is still around .0001" or on the low side.   You have discovered that many people on the internet forums guess because they do not have the skill to teach.  I don't guess and have taught several people to scrape 40 PPI on the net.    You Tube has sure helped.  You noticed all the good shows on You Tube are done by my students I hope.  Your having fun now...


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## rabler (Nov 4, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> So what did you do to improve? Scraping 40 PPI and 40 to 50 % percentage of points (POP) is difficult and as I say in Taiwan "soenen sun chow" (Practice makes perfect") Yeah once you practice eye hand coordination it as anything it gets better. One thing I can say it your trying to get it to good to fast. That's an issue many rookies have. So next time scrape or semi rough a bit longer.


This is where it gets into building experience.  To "improve" I went from a long roughing stroke to shorter "finishing" strokes, and more attention toward "checkerboarding" as Gotteswinter calls it in his video, or X's as you refer to it.  But, as you noted, it was a bit early for that.  I'm building experience by making mistakes.

I prefer a green sharpie for marking boundaries between areas to scrape and areas to skip, but I couldn't find my green this morning.  I'm not yet to the point of playing sniper.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 4, 2022)

To help teach the others reading this, did you measure the depth of the scrape marks?

I was not accusing you of adding blue sharpie high spots...LOL   just telling the story.


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## rabler (Nov 4, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> To help teach the others reading this, did you measure the depth of the scrape marks?
> 
> I was not accusing you of adding blue sharpie high spots...LOL   just telling the story.


I measured between .0004 - 0007 when roughing.  I have used a scale and am getting around 8 lbs.  I haven't measured depth for these shorter strokes but am using similar pressure.  I am thinking that thinning/slotting my scraper body to give it some flex would make it a bit easier, but haven't yet made the leap to doing that.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 4, 2022)

Depth sounds good.  Remember to always press down the same when scraping 40 PPI -  don't lighten up the depth when you get more points.   Did you experiment raising the back of the scraper handle to get a narrower cut and lower to get a wider cut?    Curious so the others can learn too.  I like what I see, your a fast learner.  Plus you have a plane?  You have to tell us about that sometime too.


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## rabler (Nov 4, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Depth sounds good.  Remember to always press down the same when scraping 40 PPI -  don't lighten up the depth when you get more points.   Did you experiment raising the back of the scraper handle to get a narrower cut and lower to get a wider cut?    Curious so the others can learn too.  I like what I see, your a fast learner.  Plus you have a plane?  You have to tell us about that sometime too.


Thanks  
I have worked with changing angle to change cut width.  I have not yet built a hand-eye coordination that I can adjust as I go, so I understand the idea, but need more practice.  I'm working on spacing and stroke length too.  Making those mechanical is just practice, practice, practice.  But I'm only good for a few hours a day before I'm worn out.

I was a flight instructor and had a plane for a while, but age and medical issues (resection of part of the illeum and ileocecal valve due to Crohn's fissure) have made that story of the distant past.  Flight instructing is one area where you absolutely learn to teach, when to talk, when to let them process and try it out, and when to grab the controls and say "my plane".   You get to see your instruction in a very real "the ground is coming up at us" kind of way


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 8, 2022)

I started the Oklahoma class yesterday and the rookies are having problems with eye hand coordination with the BIAX too.  I told one guy when you learned to ride a bike, did you tip over a few times at first? He said yes.....scraping is like riding a bike   Practice  makes perfect.  The last SE picture looks 1000% better then the first few.    I'm proud of you!!  Rich


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## rabler (Nov 8, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> I started the Oklahoma class yesterday and the rookies are having problems with eye hand coordination with the BIAX too.  I told one guy when you learned to ride a bike, did you tip over a few times at first? He said yes.....scraping is like riding a bike   Practice  makes perfect.  The last SE picture looks 1000% better then the first few.    I'm proud of you!!  Rich


Thanks for the kind words Richard.  I've struggled with some sort of sinus virus (cold) the last few days so I haven't make any progress since the last picture.  I'm on the rebound so I'll get back to it in a few days, just a few (million) other household/farm chores to catch up on.  We need to repour the concrete sidewalk to the front door as we just tore that up before I got sick.
Tell your students that I envy them the chance for hands on instruction, but some things just take practice


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