# Living In A Machining Tooling Wasteland......



## Buffalo20 (Jul 25, 2017)

Yes, its true, I'm living in a machining tooling wasteland. I live in a suburb of Syracuse, NY, in a metropolitan area of about 500,000 people, with basically 2 machine shop supply houses. With the down turn in the economy, and all of the upper NY state plant closings, your tool selections has turn to almost nil.

This morning's quest was simple 3 items on my list;

3 - 6 mm x 1 mm HSS spiral point taps
3 - 8 mm x 1.25 mm HSS spiral point taps
3 - 10 mm x 1.5 mm HSS spiral point taps

I came back to the shop with 

2 - 6 mm x 1 mm HSS 4 flute taps
2 - 8 mm x 1.25 mm carbon steel 4 flute taps
1 - 10 mm x 1.5 mm carbon steel 4 flute taps

This took a stop at both machine shop suppliers, 3 industrial suppliers, 2 welding suppliers and 4 hardware stores, just sad. The taps I originally wanted will be here Thursday morning, I ordered 6 of each size. One would think that in an area this large, the taps I was looking for, would be in stock somewhere, but alas, NO. Almost everyone had the cheap Irwin carbon steel taps, but not a single HSS metric spiral point tap. If I wanted the HSS spiral point in 6-32, 10-24, 10-36, etc, etc, etc, I could have backed a dump truck up the the loading docks, but not a single metric one.

I wanted a set of  1-2-3 blocks, be in Thursday with the taps, one of the shops had 6 of the Lyndex 1/16",  R8 collets, but no other sizes. I try to buy local when I can, be its getting harder and harder everyday. One of my local suppliers is talking about going to a 4 day week, being closed Saturday, Sunday and Monday of week, they are saying business doen't warrant a 5 day week. At this rate, I might be better off living in northern Maine or Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and have absolutely everything shipped in.


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## RandyM (Jul 25, 2017)

Yeah, I don't waste my time looking locally for that stuff any more. My time is valuable too! It just takes a little planning or waiting.


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## owl (Jul 25, 2017)

I absolutely hate the line "no we don't have it but we can order it for you".  I can order it myself, and for less than they will charge, and I will generally get it faster, and it will be delivered to me.  The whole point of going to the store is so that I can examine the merchandise before laying out money for it.  If I can't do that, why go?


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## chips&more (Jul 25, 2017)

It’s turning into a “buy online world”.


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## woodchucker (Jul 25, 2017)

pretty Sad..   2 or 3 years ago I asked a shop owner where he was getting tooling and metal. I thought he had a machine supplier locally some where. But he said they have all disappeared. He ordered from McMaster, MSC, and ordered metal online.  
Same thing with paint stores. I don't have an automotive paint store locally. Another thing I miss.


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## RandyWilson (Jul 25, 2017)

You wanted to buy specialty taps in metric, locally? Metric? Dude, you don't live in the wrong town, you live in the wrong country!


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## kvt (Jul 25, 2017)

Hay,   here is my part of Texas,  Even standard size taps is a cra.    shoot. you may find one you may not.   Oh they can order them and get them in for you,  but in stock  Best chance is Grangers etc.   and hope.   I can find Vbelts for almost anything easier than some tools.


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## dulltool17 (Jul 25, 2017)

Victor Machinery Exchange- Woodside, NY
www.victornet.com


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 25, 2017)

I can buy them from about 30 different vendors on line, but I was able to get this locally 3-5 years ago from about 5 places, they are now either an empty shell of what they use to be or are gone completely.


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## 4GSR (Jul 25, 2017)

kvt said:


> Hay,   here is my part of Texas,  Even standard size taps is a cra.    shoot. you may find one you may not.   Oh they can order them and get them in for you,  but in stock  Best chance is Grangers etc.   and hope.   I can find Vbelts for almost anything easier than some tools.


Ken,

If you ever get in a bind for a taps, drills, end mill or what ever you need, let me know, I have a good supply of tooling here and I don't mind sharing.  I can have it in the mail that day so you can have it maybe the next day.  Or drive it up your way.

Ken


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## Bob Korves (Jul 25, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> You wanted to buy specialty taps in metric, locally? Metric? Dude, you don't live in the wrong town, you live in the wrong country!


There are tons of metric automobiles, household products of all descriptions, tools large and small, power and hand, and just a flood of everything that is built to metric dimensions and with metric fasteners.  Some think they can ignore it and it will go away.  It won't.  

The metric system has been officially sanctioned for use in the United States since 1866, but it remains the only industrialized country that has not adopted the metric system as its official system of measurement.

I worked in automotive, heavy equipment, big and small trucks, and stationary equipment parts for 35 years.  We had both metric and imperial designed equipment of all kinds, and parts were needed for them all.  I changed hats between systems many times every day, and even after being retired a few years can still convert back and forth between them in my head, and recognize hardware from both systems at a distance and can tell you what size they are at a glance.  That is the result of having to deal with our double standard system.  I have absolutely no preference for one system over the other, they both work just fine.  But having two systems in use causes huge problems with having doubles of tools, hardware, measuring devices, and much more.  It is inefficient as hell.  But, it is what it is.  My car is metric, my old machines and tools are imperial.  I have owned three cars with Whitworth fasteners.  I have the stuff to work on them all, and I know the systems.

The real problem with the current state of affairs is that the U.S. is becoming an arcane,  isolated island in a world where international trade is a major part of existence.  It does not work well, and it is getting worse.  Metric vs. imperial is only one relatively small part of that.

If you think this is a rant for the U.S. to change completely to metric, you are wrong.  That decision is way above my pay grade, and I am OK with my metric, my imperial, and my Whitworth stuff.  Speaking of Whitworth, he is the father of standardized fastening systems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Whitworth
He worked for Henry Maudslay, inventor of the screw cutting lathe and the surface plate, and then went on to try to bring standardization to fasteners, which were at that time different in every shop and factory.  He invented the Whitworth system in 1841 to allow interchangeable fasteners, helping to end the insanity of having numerous standards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth
http://www.whitworthsociety.org/history.php?page=2

It is now 175 years later and we are still not all on the same page...


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## 2volts (Jul 26, 2017)

owl said:


> I absolutely hate the line "no we don't have it but we can order it for you".  I can order it myself, and for less than they will charge, and I will generally get it faster, and it will be delivered to me.  The whole point of going to the store is so that I can examine the merchandise before laying out money for it.  If I can't do that, why go?



It is the same here in Australia. I wanted a hand wheel that's was in the Blackwoods catalogue. I went to their nearest outlet, I knew it was unlikely to be in stock there, but I did expect to them to get it in from their main warehouse. I was in no rush, happy to pick it up in a few days, next week, whenever.

"No. We have to get that from the supplier, and it will cost an extra $20 because it's a one off single item"

My rapid response: "Forget about it".

I went home and ordered it online from a business in Queensland on the other side of the country.

I doubt I will darken Blackwoods door ever again.


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## Mark_f (Jul 26, 2017)

The whole country is becoming a machine wasteland. Here in Pennsylvania, all the mills are gone. The suppliers are mostly all gone and the ones left are mere shells that stock almost nothing and are on the way out also. The only requirement to get a job around here now is, can you say "would you like fries with that". It is sad.


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## Nogoingback (Jul 26, 2017)

mark_f said:


> The whole country is becoming a machine wasteland. Here in Pennsylvania, all the mills are gone. The suppliers are mostly all gone and the ones left are mere shells that stock almost nothing and are on the way out also. The only requirement to get a job around here now is, can you say "would you like fries with that". It is sad.



It's not just "traditional" manufacturing either.  I worked in Silicon Valley in the 80's, when electronics manufacturing was booming.  All of those  jobs are now being done in Asia as well.
I have a friend that still works there  (smart guy with a Phd in Physics), and he only can work for start-ups because NOBODY builds the stuff he works on here.  It's all done in Korea, which
among other things, means that nobody here even knows how to make that stuff any more.   He spends a lot of time in Korea.

And while I'm at it, here's another sad story.  A number of years ago I met a smart college student who was just about graduate with a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering.  He had supported himself
during college by working at Albertson's, the grocery chain, which he had worked at since high school.  I asked about his plans after graduation, and he said it was a dilemma,
because if he took a job as an EE, he'd take a big pay cut compared with what he was making at the grocery store!  And companies b*t*h about the shortage of engineers.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 26, 2017)

This would be everywhere, a small local tool distributor  can not compete on price nor stock the myriad different tools that a national E-Store can.

I work in a shop located in the Philadelphia area, we buy nearly every tool from MSC, MacMaster ( if in a hurry),  Tri State,  Harvey and a few others. Unlike the garment industry  most people do not need to see, feel and try on taps and other such tools, the cost of maintaining retail outlets is silly at best and untenable at worst. The web has brought you a wealth of options at lower prices then you had 20 years ago so use it.


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 27, 2017)

picked up the taps this morning, scarfed a couple of donuts, bought 6 segmented plastic boxes and a large manual pop rivet gun


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## mmcmdl (Jul 28, 2017)

The majority of hobby machinists won't pay what MSC or Grainger wants for quality tools and tooling , hence we have Horrible Freight etc . ( which seems to be a major hit on here ) . Yep , down here we had a few supply houses that have gone south also , but , what business hasn't ? My question to you .........why couldn't you put out a request for these tools on this website for the many older machinists who have this stuff in their drawers and would be willing to sell it at reasonable prices ? I've never heard anyone on here looking for Guhring or OSG etc . taps . They look for the cheap junk and then whine when they fail to deliver . Today I had to take my own taps in to work to power tap on a Bridgey . Fortune 500 won't buy quality tools because the people in charge are bean counters and not machinists nor are interested in time vs price comp . Lets all support HF and the Chinese . FJS


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## 4GSR (Jul 29, 2017)

Maybe we can encourage H-F in stocking the good stuff for us more serious H-M?


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 29, 2017)

I don't  buy from MSC or Graingers because of a couple of reasons. MSC's website to me is impossible, far too complicated, just show me the product. Graingers is not a machine shop supplier, they are a HVAC and electrical contractor supply house, that dabbles in selling cutting tools for lathes and mills, they sell crappy drill bits all day long, but are clueless when it comes to sell machine tooling. The pricing is horrible from both of them. I use MSC and Graingers, both on an almost daily basis, because of work, but it doesn't mean I like them.

As for Harbor Freight, I've bought lots of stuff from them, mostly impact sockets, cheap disposable air tools and a few pieces of hydraulic equipment, but nothing with a cord or that takes batteries. I also will not buy cutting tools from  from Harbor Freight, except for bonded carbide tool bits, which are cheap disposable items anyways.

I don't buy cheap taps or dies, I paid $18/ea for the OSG, 6mm x 1mm taps (with shipping), what I was lamenting is the basic loss of any type of local support to any kind of machining operation. To me it's more about a large manufacting center that has, according to who your talking to, is dying or is already dead. Here is a quick list of dying or dead businesses in my area.

Carrier
GE
Lockheed-Martin
New Process Gear
Bristol Myers Squibb
Syracuse China
Syracuse and LeMoyne Universities (engineering programs)
General Motors
Oberdorf Gear
local schools closing the industrial art classes

At one time there were about 100-150 machine shops, gear manufacturers and related shops, we now down to about 20-25 small shops. So the business base for the machine shop suppliers has gone, we went from 5 or 6 to 2 and they are basically catalog ordering centers. I know I can order on line, I just HATE it, the 2-4 day wait, not sure what you ordered is right or it what the supplier said it was. If there is an issue, even more delay, I know it's the wave of the future, it doesn't mean I have to like it

It's hard to be an industrial boiler service technician, when there is no industry to work for.


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## Eddyde (Jul 29, 2017)

McMaster-Carr https://www.mcmaster.com
Has what you need


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## Bob Korves (Jul 29, 2017)

Eddyde said:


> McMaster-Carr https://www.mcmaster.com
> Has what you need


McMaster-Carr has just about anything a machinist might ask for as far as small tools and supplies, a good online catalog and quick and good service, but their pricing usually makes them about my last place to search when I need something.  MSC is one step down from them, at the bottom...  The top of my list is currently empty, unfortunately, but All Industrial seems to be moving into that spot.


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## Eddyde (Jul 29, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> McMaster-Carr has just about anything a machinist might ask for as far as small tools and supplies, a good online catalog and quick and good service, but their pricing usually makes them about my last place to search when I need something.  MSC is one step down from them, at the bottom...  The top of my list is currently empty, unfortunately, but All Industrial seems to be moving into that spot.



I find McMaster's pricing very reasonable, considering the convenience. If I order before 7 pm I usually get my order the next day, via regular UPS! 
Sure, if you know what you need well ahead of time, the options are much greater for saving money. The OP's story sounded like there was urgency in getting the taps asap, hard to beat McMaster in those situations.
I also like KBC Tools and Machinery http://www.kbctools.com for machine shop stuff.


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## woodchucker (Jul 29, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> McMaster-Carr has just about anything a machinist might ask for as far as small tools and supplies, a good online catalog and quick and good service, but their pricing usually makes them about my last place to search when I need something.  MSC is one step down from them, at the bottom...  The top of my list is currently empty, unfortunately, but All Industrial seems to be moving into that spot.


I went looking for a mt2  7/8 -20  boring head shaft last night, could not find it.
So I don't think they are a total machine shop supplier. I use them often, but they are not my primary tool supplier.


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 29, 2017)

There are about 30 place I can order tooling and misc supplies from (that I trust and am willing to deal with), what has me somewhat disgusted, is 5-6 years ago, I could buy almost anything locally, usually within 20 minutes from the house. At the rate things are going, pretty soon, I will have to order in milk and bread.

I want to buy local, support local businesses, keep people employed, have a viable tax base and have people who can afford to pay the taxes. I bought my house in 1978, by 1994, the property and school taxes had doubled, by 2008, they had doubled again, by 2016, they have gone up another 50%. No manufacturing, no jobs, no support businesses, no viable tax base.

I own a farm (12 acres) about 50 miles from where I live, its getting to the point, where there is no real benefit, except for being near the hospital, to live in the suburbs.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 30, 2017)

I'm with you ! I have 45 acres  across I 90 from you in Herkimer County . You can probably add Remington Arms in Illion NY to your list . Sad to see progress take place but you can't fight it . Same down here in Balto. Md . Next out of business will be Locke Insulators . Closed due to cheap overseas suppliers . Another 200 employees out of work , but , it seems to be the future trend . If I wasn't 58 yo I would be changing  careers , but I will ride it out and go live in the mountains and do woodwork .


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## BROCKWOOD (Aug 2, 2017)

I'm sorry but the "Sad to see progress take place" comment just seems so wrong.  I am not correcting mmcmdl at all.  As a quick aside, I am not educated in what roman number I just wrote.  This is not progress people.  This is anti-progress.  I'm all for a cleaner planet, but the big business has squeezed all they can out of small business & what individuals can legally do or even gain access to for new parts & equipment. This is so that their Tankers & Factories can continue to pollute.  If the EPA were serious about their actual mission, JD & Co would be responsible for cleaning up all their waste product dumped into rivers prior to discovering they could make gasoline from it.  Oil Companies in Houston would have to remove retired pipe sticking up out of the bay.  The US Government would have to remove several tons of equipment from the pacific ocean & Russia would have to restore their nuke graveyard to the pristine ocean it once was.  But, I digress & regress into my old machines & my own version of a simpler time.


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