# Looking At A 954



## mrbacklash (Aug 18, 2015)

I am looking to buy my first lathe and have a few questions. I am looking to use it for repairing hydraulic cylinders on John Deere garden tractors that are welded on both ends. I have my eye on an Atlas 954 what are the good and bad things about this lathe?  Also what does this lathe weigh with the motor?


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## wa5cab (Aug 18, 2015)

The only weights that I have are shipping weights.  Which depending upon which motor it has would vary between about 235 and 250 pounds.  So bare weight around 200.

On the 954 as a first lathe I will have to be honest and say that I would recommend that (in the Atlas line) you look for a 10F (like model TH54) or Craftsman 101.07403.  These are the same size as the 954 except that the 10F has a 10" swing instead of 9" and the 07403 is 12".  Swing is the nominal largest diameter of part that you can swing over the bed.  Swing over the carriage is on most lathes about half of the swing over bed.  The reason that I would recommend this isn't the modest swing increase.  The 10F and the equivalent Craftsman models were made up until 1957 and the availability of either new or used parts is much much better.  Plus numerous improvements were made over the years.

There are also two or three other brands from the same period with roughly equivalent machines but I have no personal experience with any of them.  About all that I can say is that fewer were sold so parts availability may not be as good if you do need a part.  Other than that, I won't comment either pro or con.

Now if you were a collector of vintage Atlas or even just vintage machinery, a complete 954 would be a great find.  I personally only know of 3 or 4 scattered around the country.


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## mrbacklash (Aug 18, 2015)

Thanks, would an Atlas or Craftsman be the way to start out with?  In reality i only need 18-24 between centers max, but this is a pretty decent deal price wise i think complete with motor disassembled and bead blasted for $250  I have found plenty of documentation online as far as reassembly, and plenty of parts available on Ebay it looks.


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## Pinresto (Aug 18, 2015)

The lathe was bead blasted? What exactly was bead blasted?


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## mrbacklash (Aug 18, 2015)

All of the items that were painted were bead blasted and primed 


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## macernst (Aug 18, 2015)

mrbacklash, 
i have the same typ of lathe just a shorter bed. mine is a 936. its a nice lathe - to look at. the typ of power transfer to the spindle needs 3 belts, it is called a compound drive. something like a back gear but a little flimmsy. i run it sometimes, but if i want to make parts, mostly aluminum or brass, i move to my 9 inch south bend. you cant compare them to each other. there are worlds in between. its like driving a small fiat or driving a heavy truck. this lathe was the first atlas that was build. it was made for the hobbyist. 
its your choice, but i as a owner i totally agree what robert said.
ernst


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## mrbacklash (Aug 18, 2015)

Would it be too much to ask of it to part a 3" diameter pipe with 3/16" wall?  


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## coolidge (Aug 18, 2015)

Part that pipe with a horizontal band saw then take a face cut on the lathe to make it pretty.


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## macernst (Aug 18, 2015)

well, i am not a machinist, i did not learn the trade. i always try to play it safe. 
here are the problems that i see:
to grap and center a 3 inch pipe in the chuck is not as easy as it looks like. you can easily bend or press it with the chuck.  also it depends how long the pipe is or in which distance to the chuck you need to make the cut.
the steady rest for my 936 is just a hair to small to help supporting the 3 inch pipe.
i would definitly do the cut with a saw and than if neccesarry do facing in the lathe.
but as i said i am not a machinist.
ernst


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## wa5cab (Aug 18, 2015)

Well, no, probably not.  But if the 3" thin wall tubing is longer than about 6 or 7 inches, you will need a Steady Rest.  However, that would also be true of Ernst's 9" South Bend or of my 12" Atlas Commercial.

Also, how you would do that safely with any machine would depend upon how long the pipe was and how much you are parting off.  If for example you are parting off the closed end of a welded construction hydraulic cylinder, you could probably do that on the 954 if the piston rod is no larger than 3/4".  The spindle bore on all of the Atlas machines except the 6" ones is 25/32".  So 3/4" is the limit that you can stick up in or through the spindle bore.  If the rod is larger than 3/4". then it depends upon how much of the rod has to stick out in order to get the piston safely out of the way of the parting tool.  That's almost certain to be too much for the light duty chucks that you normally find on an Atlas 9" or babbit bearing 10".  One other problem is that unless the 954 you are thinking of buying comes with a Steady Rest in good usable condition, you might find one on eBay this week or it could take two years of looking.  Ones for the 10" and 12" turn up fairly frequently (typically more so on average than ones for the Logan's, Clausing's or South Bend's, which are the other brands I was thinking about earlier).  And any of them are likely to cost you $150 to $300.  Regardless of make, it seems to be a truism that any two or three significant accessories will cost as much or more than almost any of the bare lathes.

But the bottom line is, if you are buying a lathe (or anything else) to mainly do a specific job or type of job, don't let what looks like a good deal dollar wise talk you into buying something that can do it but just barely.  Because by the second or third time you have to do it, you will have forgotten all about how good a deal it was and begin to dread the next job.  I'm not yet saying that that's the case here, only that it could be.


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## mrbacklash (Aug 18, 2015)

Thanks for the info, the cylinder rod is 1" on most of them so that would be an issue. I guess i need to keep looking for a larger one, would a Craftsman 101.07403 have a large enough spindle bore?


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## wa5cab (Aug 19, 2015)

No,  Atlas built all of the 12" Craftsman lathes sold between about 1936 and 1981.  And as I wrote above, all Atlas built 9", 10" and 12" lathes have 25/32" ID spindles.  

If your question about parting off 3" dia. by 3/16" wall thickness pipe referred to cutting off the blind end of single acting welded cylinders, you might investigate how much of the rod has to stick out in order that the parting off tool will safely clear the piston.  And compare this to the thickness of heavy duty 6" 3-jaw threaded chucks less the length of the spindle nose threads on an Atlas lathe.  If there is in all cases say at least 1/4" clearance, then you could use an Atlas machine.  But I would recommend one with Timken bearings instead of babbit.  Which means later 10" or later 12" machines but not the 9".  For example, the 6" Pratt-Bernard heavy duty chuck on my Atlas 3996 (a 12") will take only about 2-5/8" of 1-1/8" diameter rod through the chuck before it hits the end of the spindle nose.  That probably isn't enough.

So you are almost certainly going to need a machine with a larger spindle bore.  Unfortunately, my familiarity with other brand machines is only from the operators and parts manuals.  And these things (including Atlas I'm sorry to say) almost never give the spindle bore.  So I can't rattle off a list of brand and model numbers with spindle bores of 1-1/8" or larger.  I can say that you are unlikely to find one at a price anywhere near to $250.  And most will have beds even longer than 54" and swings of 14" or 16" or larger.  Perhaps someone else can chime in about large bore short bed machines.


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## Rob (Aug 19, 2015)

The South Bend heavy 10 has a large bore in the Spindle.  I believe that it is 1 3/8".  It is also a lot heavier machine than an Atlas.  There are deals to be had on them but they usually run more than a Atlas on price.


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## markba633csi (Aug 19, 2015)

mrbacklash said:


> I am looking to buy my first lathe and have a few questions. I am looking to use it for repairing hydraulic cylinders on John Deere garden tractors that are welded on both ends. I have my eye on an Atlas 954 what are the good and bad things about this lathe?  Also what does this lathe weigh with the motor?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Just curious Backlash, these cylinders you mentioned- how were they welded together without melting the seals? Are you sure they are really meant to be repaired?  Or do you have an ulterior motive?
Mark S.


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## wa5cab (Aug 19, 2015)

According to their 1948 catalog, the South Bend 10" was available with either a 1" or a 1-3/8" spindle bore.

The Logan 11" 1900 Series and 12" 2500 and 2900 Series have 1-3/8" spindle bores and 2-1/4"-8 spindle nose.  The Logan 10" 1800 and 9" 900 Series are the same as the Atlas 10" and 12".

The Clausing 13" 6500 Series has a 1-9/16" dia. spindle bore and an L-0 spindle nose

The Colchester (Clausing) 11" 8000 series has a 1-3/8" spindle bore and a D-1 spindle nose.

The Delta 11" 25- Series has a 1-3/8" bore and either 2-1/4"-8 or L-00 spindle nose.

And there are probably many others.  Unfortunately, you are not going to find any of these for anywhere near to $250.


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## wa5cab (Aug 19, 2015)

markba633csi said:


> Just curious Backlash, these cylinders you mentioned- how were they welded together without melting the seals? Are you sure they are really meant to be repaired?  Or do you have an ulterior motive?
> Mark S.


Mark,

More expensive hydraulic cylinders were (are?) rebuildable.  They are made with an O-ring groove in the back side (toward the cylinder) of the rod end and clevis end.  The loose tube is stuck into the grooves and retained by four long studs.  I doubt that the original manufacturer intended for the welded cylinders to be repaired.  But there may be a need for good cylinders and new ones are no longer available (or cost a small fortune).  As for as how they were assembled without burning up the seals, the rod end is welded on first.  Then the rod and piston are installed and the piston pulled all the way to the rod end.  Then the clevis end is welded on.  It probably wouldn't be necessary for most lengths but if the cylinder was very short, the rod and rod end would be immersed in non-flamable coolant.


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## mrbacklash (Aug 19, 2015)

They are built by Deere, to be non repairable so you have to cut the weld at the end and then re weld them I have done it with a cut off wheel but a lathe would make it easy. I wrap mine with a wet rag to keep them cool. 


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## wa5cab (Aug 19, 2015)

Mrbacklash,

I don't know why this didn't occur to me, possibly because given the option, one would remove the clevis end first, slightly bevel the ID and then push out the piston and rod.  But, although for several reasons, some previously mentioned and some not, I wouldn't personally recommend doing it with the 9", there is a practical way to cut off the rod and clevis ends without having to pass the 1" rod through the headstock spindle.  Cut off the piston end first.  I don't know specifically what the clevis end on your cylinders looks like.  You may need to make a fixture for the clevis that you can grab in a 4-jaw. but that you would have to do (or not) with any lathe up to maybe a 20".  You will in any scenario have to have a steady rest.  Be sure that it is the type that the top opens so that you can just lay the cylinder down on the bottom two jaws.  And I would recommend roller jaws.

The Atlas tailstock ram is 1-1/8" in diameter.  Remove the ram, feed screw and bearing.  And the ram lock.  Sleeve the tailstock with a length of 1-1/8" OD .06" WT thin wall tubing.  You might drill oil holes to line up with the hole that the ram lock sleeves normally occupy.  You will also need something to keep the sleeve from rotating in the tailstock.  Remove the anti-rotate screw from the bottom of the tailstock nose.  Get a dog (extended) point socket set screw that fits the anti-rotate screw threads (probably 1/4"-20).  Drill a hole in the sleeve the same diameter as the dog point to line up with the tapped hole.  Install the sleeve and run the dog point screw in until finger tight.  I would probably secure it with Blue Locktite.  With a Dremel or similar grinder and as large stone, grind the dog point down flush with the ID of the sleeve.  I have a Dremel tool holder that fits the vice on my milling attachment that I would use for the job.  But if you have steady hands, you can probably do it free-hand.  You want a slip fit between the rod and sleeve so you may need to ream or bore the sleeve in place after you have it locked. 

Anyway, this would work if you don't buy one of the larger spindle bore lathes.  Regardless of what you use to do it, you will need to make a slip fit plug to keep from egging the cylinder during cutting off of the second end (whichever end that is).


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## Rob (Aug 19, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> And there are probably many others.  Unfortunately, you are not going to find any of these for anywhere near to $250.


 
Yes they do usually run more than an Atlas but there are deals out there. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/picked-an-sb-10-today.37624/  Unfortunately am usually not in the right place at the right time.

 Mrbacklash,
Do you just have to remove the end opposite the end with the rod.  If so you might be able to use a 3 or 4 jaw chuck to hold the end with the rod by having the rod fully in, depending on how much sticks out you should have room for the rod in the center of the chuck.  You could then use a steady rest on the other end and remove just that cap.  If this is the case most of the 10/12" Atlas/Craftsman lathes should work.  Not sure about the 9"


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## mrbacklash (Aug 23, 2015)

Well to post an update on this, I found a small lathe at an auction to learn with, here it is:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/elgin-cataract-style-lathe-questions.37921/


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