# Why is the good stuff so expensive?



## Janderso (Jun 2, 2020)

I was watching a Tom Lipton video over the weekend. He was plowing through some material on his milling machine.
I couldn't believe how aggressive the cut was. I paid attention when he said, "these Niagara fine pitch 8% cobalt roughing end mills are sweet".
I would say he was plowing 1/2" doc with a 3/4" diameter cutter. Just moving along, no chatter, no whining or squealing.
Yes, they are sweet.
I quickly got online to buy a couple for myself. Ah, wait a minute. A 3/4" end mill is how much? $137
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/45554292
Maybe I will continue to use my standard cutters.
I'm not in that big of a hurry.


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## Janderso (Jun 2, 2020)

I decided to try these.




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						Results Page 1 :: KBC Tools & Machinery
					






					www.kbctools.com
				



I have been happy with KBC. I get 4 for the price of one Niagara. Hey, I still get fine pitch, cobalt. Look at the sizes, 1/2", 5/8" 3/4" and 1". That is good value. Maybe.......


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## vtcnc (Jun 2, 2020)

Janderso said:


> I decided to try these.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Subscribing to this one to pay attention to your results.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## darkzero (Jun 2, 2020)

Ya gotta become a popular YT'r! 

Not saying this it the case with Tom Lipton cause I have no idea but there's a guy who works at Niagara as a tool designer or something that supports the YT machinists makers. Some time ago he sent care packages to a number of YT'rs for free.

But Niagara does make some of the best end mills. Some of their geometries look very interesting. Gotta pay for good tools. I can't afford them so I buy 95% of my end mills on ebay.


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## mikey (Jun 2, 2020)

I own mostly Niagara cutters, some of which must be nearly 20 years old. I know my 3/8" cobalt fine pitch rougher is at least 15 years old and still cuts like new. When I first bought it, I cut a 3/8" deep pocket in aluminum about 4" square and went full depth ... on a little Sherline mill. For most things, you get what you pay for and in the case of Niagara cutters it is worth the cost. If used properly, they cut well and have a good work life.

For me, cheap end mills is not a good investment.


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## darkzero (Jun 2, 2020)

mikey said:


> For me, cheap end mills is not a good investment.



Most definitely! I bought one of those cheap end mill sets when I first got my mill. Pretty much junk but they got me by & were cheap. Never again. Now I only buy quality name brand end mills but at surplus prices on ebay. Which means I'm always keeping an eye out but worth the savings. Only time I'll bite the bullet & pay full retail is if I need it in a hurry.

I have a few 1/16" & 3/32" Niagara end mills that just keep on going. Haven't ever broke one & my mill doesn't even go fast enough to spin them at the recommended RPMs.


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## projectnut (Jun 3, 2020)

Like others I've used Niagara and other quality brand end mills for years.  They do hold up well and cut almost all metals easily.  Like Mikey's some of mine date back many years.  Some are from the 1980's.

Having said that I think the places you're looking are charging what I would consider "Ultra Premium" prices.  There are currently over 2,000 NEW Niagara end mills of various materials, sizes and configurations listed in the US on eBay.  Prices for 1/2" ones are as low as $15.00.  I would check out some of the businesses that buy surplus stock and business closeouts.

I have in the neighborhood of 300 Niagara brand mills of different sizes, coatings, and cutting configurations.  All were purchased NEW.  Some were purchased late last year, and I've never paid more than $25.00 a unit for even the largest ones.  I always look for a "Lot" of several.  f you can use multiples of the same size or similar size it always  brings down the per unit price considerably.

*On Edit: * Speaking of less expensive when "buying by the lot" Last week I purchased 40-1/4" carbide mills, 10-3/8 mills, and 40 assorted carbide inserts from a shop in Michigan for the total sum of $85.00 shipping included.  They should arrive in the next couple days.  Time will tell if I got the deal of a lifetime, or was a first class sucker.  I'm hoping for the deal of a lifetime since I know of several others that bought from the same shop and were more than satisfied.


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## Janderso (Jun 3, 2020)

projectnut said:


> Having said that I think the places you're looking are charging what I would consider "Ultra Premium" prices. There are currently over 2,000 NEW Niagara end mills of various materials, sizes and configurations listed in the US on eBay. Prices for 1/2" ones are as low as $15.00. I would check out some of the businesses that buy surplus stock and business closeouts.


I always worry about buying counterfeit on Ebay. 
I bought a new Mitutoyo dial indicator for cheap. Once I unwrapped it and gave it a good once over, it was not the real deal.
I do watch Travers specials. They have some good prices from time to time on name brand cutters.
I'll let you know how these KBC end mills perform. It will be a couple weeks before I can get to it.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 3, 2020)

" Why is the good stuff so expensive "?

If it wasn't expensive , it wouldn't be good Jeff !


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## ttabbal (Jun 3, 2020)

Janderso said:


> I always worry about buying counterfeit on Ebay.
> I bought a new Mitutoyo dial indicator for cheap. Once I unwrapped it and gave it a good once over, it was not the real deal.
> I do watch Travers specials. They have some good prices from time to time on name brand cutters.
> I'll let you know how these KBC end mills perform. It will be a couple weeks before I can get to it.




I haven't had problems with end mills being fakes. Mitutoyo stuff on ebay and even amazon is a problem. Mostly measuring tools. I have switched to buying only from bigger vendors for those as I don't think they would risk their reputation selling fakes. I think it's partly that measuring tools are used by a lot of hobby users, so there are more people to possibly catch. End mills are a pretty limited market, not many people own a mill.


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## projectnut (Jun 3, 2020)

Janderso said:


> *I always worry about buying counterfeit on Ebay.
> I bought a new Mitutoyo dial indicator for cheap. Once I unwrapped it and gave it a good once over, it was not the real deal.
> I do watch Travers specials.* They have some good prices from time to time on name brand cutters.
> I'll let you know how these KBC end mills perform. It will be a couple weeks before I can get to it.



That's why I only buy from established vendors who aren't willing to risk their reputation.  I only buy from vendors based in the US and those that have thousands of sales.  I always go with vendors with a 99% or better rating.  Even then I check their feedback.  You'd be surprised how lame some of the negative feedback is. The lowest rating of any vendor in my "saved" list has a rating of 99.7%.  Of the 3 complaints in the last 2,000+ sales one person gave a negative feedback for an antenna they purchased.  They didn't do their research and didn't find out until after the fact it wasn't compatible with their WIFI system.

As for measuring tools I also only go with known vendors like Travers and Shars (Discount Machine) I recently bought a Mitutoyo caliper from Travers and it is perfect.  Even on sale it wasn't "cheap", but it was well worth the money I spent.  Over the years I've bought several things from Shars.  In my case I always check their website as well as their online eBay store.  More often than not I order from the home website.  The prices are less for items on sale, and being in close proximity the shipping is less as well.  In the couple times I've had a defective or damaged tool from Shars they've quickly replaced it.

For calipers I have a dial Mitutoyo, a dial Starrett, an electronic Mitutoyo, and half a dozen HF specials in the 6", 8" and 12" sizes.  All the HF ones are older and are as accurate as the name brand ones.  I use them on the road and in the field where loss damage, or disappearance is a concern.  The name brands stay in the shop where there's less chance of loss or damage.


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## higgite (Jun 3, 2020)

> *Why is the good stuff so expensive?*



The first half of that question answers the second half. 

Tom


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## Janderso (Jun 3, 2020)

higgite said:


> The first half of that question answers the second half.
> 
> Tom


Yeah, It's kind of a rhetorical question.

I have to agree, Shars has impressed me. Yes, I'm a hobby guy and don't put my tools through the ringer like you professionals, but their branded products are consistently made to a higher standard than the typical over the pond products. IMHO.


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## projectnut (Jun 3, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Yeah, It's kind of a rhetorical question.
> 
> I have to agree, Shars has impressed me. Yes, I'm a hobby guy and don't put my tools through the ringer like you professionals, but their branded products are consistently made to a higher standard than the typical over the pond products. IMHO.



As an FYI several years ago when I was looking for a surface grinder for the shop a local vendor suggested I take an evening class at our local technical college.  He mentioned they had over a dozen different grinders that I should try before making a decision.  I took his advise and enrolled one semester. 

I did get to use several grinders, and did eventually make a purchase.  However one thing that struck me were the tools the school provided for the students.  Almost all measuring tools, collets, parallels and other similar tooling was Shars brand.  When I asked why I was told that way too many tools were being lost and damaged.  At the price Mitutoyo and Starrett was asking the school couldn't afford to replace them.  With the lesser expensive Shars tools not only were they loosing les, but the replacement cost for those lost and/or damaged was also less


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## ddickey (Jun 3, 2020)

It is sad to me that a technical school has to buy tools made in Communist China while training people for the trades/manufacturing in the US.


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## projectnut (Jun 3, 2020)

ddickey said:


> It is sad to me that a technical school has to buy tools made in Communist China while training people for the trades/manufacturing in the US.



Not everything Shars sells is made in China.  Many of their cutting tools, tool holding, and work holding tools are made in the US and other countries. Like any business or other non- profit they have to work within a budget.  The number 1 need to replace tools and tooling is loss.  Essentially that means students, employees or guests had been walking out the door with things in their pockets or back packs.  Now with less desirable tools the loss is less than 30% of what it was when the school was providing tooling that was more expensive and more desirable.


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## darkzero (Jun 3, 2020)

I can relate. I took the conventional machining courses at my local college with my little brother when he needed to take the class (I was his ride so I thought might as well & I could learn more myself). He just needed the credit for one semester, I decided to continue on & complete the course. All their machinery & machine accessories were name brand. Most of the lathes were Regal LeBlond, a few Logans, one Hardinge, a huge American Pacemaker, & a Graziano. Vertical mills were mostly Bridgeport put all pretty worn, one Sharp that was very nice, & a brand new Ganesh (China) that no one ever used cause it was always broken down. Horizontal mills were Cincinnatti & I forget but I think the surface grinders were too. Pedestal grinders were all Baldor. Big DoAll vertical & horizontal bandsaws.

Anyways, all the loaner measuring tools (as well as tool bits) were China, I don't even remember seeing brand names on them. Same for most anything else that was loaned out & was small enough to be pocketed. They did have very little Starrett measuring tools as well as Mitutoyo but they rarely got lent out & only to those who have been there for a number of semesters. Same reason, tools walked off or got damaged from students dropping them or whatever. They had a budget which was getting smaller each year.


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 3, 2020)

About 5 yrs ago I took an adult ed class, it got the point, where I brought my own lathe tools and end mills to class, as what they had was well past it’s expiration date. 3 months later, they shipped to mills and lathes off to another JC in the system and deleted the class from the ciriculum.


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## darkzero (Jun 3, 2020)

Janderso said:


> I always worry about buying counterfeit on Ebay.
> I bought a new Mitutoyo dial indicator for cheap. Once I unwrapped it and gave it a good once over, it was not the real deal.
> I do watch Travers specials. They have some good prices from time to time on name brand cutters.
> I'll let you know how these KBC end mills perform. It will be a couple weeks before I can get to it.



Like ttabbal said I don't worry about counterfeit end mills. The thing about counterfeiting is they usually only fake specific items/models that are popular selling items. Otherwise there really is no point for counterfeiting them. They rely on popular items to try & get sales. Copying designs is different.

There are so many different endmills types, sizes, & manufacturers that it doesn't make sense to fake a name brand & style of endmill. Although they do now for carbide inserts so who knows what can happen in the future.

One thing AvE once said that I believe. Chinese HSS end mills are junk (which is usually true) cause they cheap out on the grinding equipment & process. But for carbide end mills they really can't so they often come out pretty good. That is until they figure out how to cheapen that process. Then there are Chinese carbide grades. Chinese carbide inserts are made well but some of their carbide grades & PVD coatings aren't that great. I have tried some, while they do work well they don't last or perform like the quality name brands. But they are decent for a hobbyist & they are so cheap taking the time to swap one out doesn't matter.

I personally haven't tried any Chinese carbide endmills myself. But in relation to what AvE commented, I have tried carbide end mills from various unfamiliar/less familiar (to me) USA brand names and I don't recall ever really being dissatisfied with any of the ones I have tried.


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## ACHiPo (Jun 3, 2020)

Janderso said:


> I always worry about buying counterfeit on Ebay.
> I bought a new Mitutoyo dial indicator for cheap. Once I unwrapped it and gave it a good once over, it was not the real deal.
> I do watch Travers specials. They have some good prices from time to time on name brand cutters.
> I'll let you know how these KBC end mills perform. It will be a couple weeks before I can get to it.


I share your concern about counterfeits on Ebay, but I've been lucky (or clueless) in my purchases.  That being said, I've purchased most of my cutting tools used from retired/expired machinists.  I found one guy in Lafayette that was recently retired from Berkeley Livermore Lab (where Tom Lipton works I think?) on CL and bought a bunch of top quality, genuine stuff (Niagra cutters, etc.)  I didn't get a screaming deal (20% - 50% of new prices), but I think fair and they work great.


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## projectnut (Jun 4, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> About 5 yrs ago I took an adult ed class, it got the point, where I brought my own lathe tools and end mills to class, as what they had was well past it’s expiration date. 3 months later, they shipped to mills and lathes off to another JC in the system and deleted the class from the ciriculum.



We went through the same thing here about 30 years ago.  Before then our local technical college had an outstanding department for learning just about any machining skill known to man.  They had state of the art shops and an excellent apprentice program.  Somewhere along the way someone convinced them machining was going by the way similar to the fate of the blacksmith.  They pretty much let everything deteriorate, stopped the apprentice programs, and abandoned everything they had been doing for 50 years.

That wasn't such a good idea.  There's a huge number of production and job shops around here, and as the baby boomers started to age out there were no replacements.  The local shops started screaming they needed qualified help and there was none to be had.

In the early 2000's the light finally went on and the programs started getting rebuilt.  By 2010 the shops had been reoutfitted, the apprentice program restarted, and a dozen highly qualified instructors had been hired.  Today there are 4 huge shops with over 200 pieces of manual and state of the art CNC machinery.  All the machines are either new or in like new condition.  The shop I had a class in was equipped with 12 different surface grinders, the same number of new Bridgeport mills, 10 manual lathes, 6 horizontal milling machines, 4 HAAS  vertical CNC mills, internal and external grinders, and countless other pieces of support equipment like drill presses, pedestal grinders, optical comparators, surface plates and metrology tools. With that many large pieces of equipment they have contracts with local shops to rebuild and refurbish machinery every summer. 

Now days all the classes are full every semester, and there's a waiting list.


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## Janderso (Jun 4, 2020)

ACHiPo said:


> I share your concern about counterfeits on Ebay, but I've been lucky (or clueless) in my purchases.  That being said, I've purchased most of my cutting tools used from retired/expired machinists.  I found one guy in Lafayette that was recently retired from Berkeley Livermore Lab (where Tom Lipton works I think?) on CL and bought a bunch of top quality, genuine stuff (Niagra cutters, etc.)  I didn't get a screaming deal (20% - 50% of new prices), but I think fair and they work great.


Speaking of Tom Lipton and the Berkeley Lab.
One of Tom's apprentices had an old Bridgeport he bought from the lab. He kept it at his dad's house in Shingletown, CA.
I met the apprentice on a Saturday morning in Shingletown, checked out the mill and bought it. It was worn out but I didn't know it. I paid $1,000.
I learned quite a bit on that old worn out BP. Lost it in the fire. Now I have a much better clone.


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## ACHiPo (Jun 4, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Speaking of Tom Lipton and the Berkeley Lab.
> One of Tom's apprentices had an old Bridgeport he bought from the lab. He kept it at his dad's house in Shingletown, CA.
> I met the apprentice on a Saturday morning in Shingletown, checked out the mill and bought it. It was worn out but I didn't know it. I paid $1,000.
> I learned quite a bit on that old worn out BP. Lost it in the fire. Now I have a much better clone.


Jeff,
I talked to the guy a few months ago and he still had tooling available.  Let me know if you're interested and I'll get you the contact info.

Evan


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## Janderso (Jun 4, 2020)

Thank you Evan,
I'm in a good place, tooling wise.


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