# Of Machine Oilers And Oil



## Rangemaster1 (Jun 5, 2015)

I really get tired of trying to get a sufficient amount of oil into the little spring loaded oilers on my machines.  My oiler is an older pump type that works perfectly until I try to use it on the oil hole caps.  The Plews oiler has very small groves in the tip which are supposed to allow the oil past the ball.  Not so much.  I end up wiping up more oil than I get into the machine.  

One day I was using a small needle oiler on some other parts and stuck it into the oil cap and bingo, oil went where I wanted and I wiped up very little.  The light came on over my head.  Why not insert a needle into the end of my pump oiler?

 I found that a # 19 syringe needle fit the end of the oiler almost perfectly.  I cut the pointy  end off with my belt sander so I wouldn't inject myself with lubricant.  Then I removed most of the plastic from the other end with a wire stripper to avoid damaging the needle and trimmed it to fit into the oiler tip.  Screwed the tip back on with the needle in it and now lubing the machines is easy with little waste.

The Plews oilers are all over eBay and cheap.  The older ones are best ( USA made ).

Now regarding the oil.  When it comes lubrication, most of us have our preferences.  Manufacturers usually suggest a particular kind of lubricant for the various parts of their machines.  That, however, is merely a recommendation and certainly not cast in stone, often paid for by the company making the lube.  

Quite a few years ago, and after a lot of research, I began using synthetic lubricants in all my vehicles.  The reasons were many, but primarily to squeeze as many MPG’s out of them as I could.  Also because of the longer drain intervals.

One day I needed to lube the ways on my lathe but had no more way oil so I used some synthetic engine oil I had.  Everything moved easier.  When I would wipe swarf off the ways, the oil tended to stay put unless I wiped real hard, and even then it was still there.  I now use only synthetic engine oil for all my equipment.  

Why not?  It has a very high lubricity factor.  It clings tenaciously to metal.   It has exceptional shear strength.  It's a designer oil made for the most extreme conditions.  It prevenst rust.  It doesn't dry out or evaporate.  It won't gum up in extremely cold weather.  It withstands extreme heat without break down.  For what you get it's not expensive.  A quart will last a long time.  And,for what it's worth, it makes a great gun oil for a lot less money.  For what you would pay for four ounces of gun oil you can buy a quart of synthetic motor oil.  No one said you could only use it in an engine.  I use 0-20 AMSOIL because it's not heavy, but other synthetics work just as well.

I hope this helps someone searching for a better lubricant.


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## Silverbullet (Jun 5, 2015)

My thoughts are with yours I've been using synthetic oils for years in everything I own never had any trouble either. I use to clean guns at trapshoots to help pay my fees to shoot. I always use the same on others guns they always came to me at every shoot , because I did a good job of the cleaning and lubeing there guns. I'm talking guns that cost in excess of $50,000 dollars . Extreme care by me made them customers for me when ever I ws there. Even now some bring them to my repair shop just to get cleaning done , and cheap was $6 for a single barrel, $10 for doubles , combos were $15. I use to average $200 a day with the cleaning and most gave tips , I must say I earned it tho but it saved me lots of money I didn't have. Fees could run that much a day plus the cost of shells . The lube was as I said all synthetic oils and grease for hinges . Never had a gull mark on any I cleaned .


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 5, 2015)

I built a VW bug engine that ultimately locked up at 60,ooo miles.  I put too many shims on the crank shaft.  I had used synthetic oil after break in.  When I took it down, there was no noticeable wear on the main bearings or the cam and followers.  The cross hatch marks were still in the cylinders because I didn't break it in long enough.  I reset the shims, put it back together and drove it another 60,000 before the heads loosened up just before I sold it.  Great oil.  I use it on everything except as a cutting oil.  It's too expensive for that.  I use too much.


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## kingmt01 (Jun 6, 2015)

Synthetic is only a oil with a little more refining. So it has a few more impurities removed then standard oil. Impurities burn off at the high temperatures a engine runs at. Unless something has changed in the last few years in oil since I was schooled on oil the additive package is the same. It still starts with the same raw oil. 

I use 0W-20 on most everything myself but I don't go to the added expense of synthetic. I don't see how you could get the extra benefit of a synthetic on something like your ways. 

Of you content & it gives you the illusion that it is doing a better job then standard oil & is worth the extra cost by all means use it. It is better oil.

Sources is Valvoline. After they gave me the truths on oil then I was taught how to sale the propaganda.


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 6, 2015)

kingmt01 said:


> Synthetic is only a oil with a little more refining. So it has a few more impurities removed then standard oil. Impurities burn off at the high temperatures a engine runs at. Unless something has changed in the last few years in oil since I was schooled on oil the additive package is the same. It still starts with the same raw oil.
> 
> I use 0W-20 on most everything myself but I don't go to the added expense of synthetic. I don't see how you could get the extra benefit of a synthetic on something like your ways.
> 
> ...



Ah, my friend, I'm afraid that Valvoline's information is not the whole story.  Quite the contrary.  Many synthetic lubricants are "man made" from the ground up using plant based materials.  The petroleum companies use their petroleum base stocks because that's their business model.  

I strongly recommend you look up "Synthetic oil" on Wikipedia for a useful education.  Perhaps it will help you understand why synthetic will work better on your ways.  Pay special attention to the parts about greater lubricity and shear strength.  That means it's slicker and doesn't go away under extreme pressure.


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## kingmt01 (Jun 6, 2015)

Actually there is polymers in standard oil that cause it to bond to the metal also. It is part of the secret formula of the additive package. Usually someone talking about motor oil is refiring to petroleum so I assumed the same here.

I'm not sure refining plants makes it anymore synthetic then refining petroleum.

I'm not a oil expert by any means. I find that the more I learn about oil the led I know. Oil is a great mystery to midst people. There is several additives that you can add to any type of oil to increase it's function.


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 7, 2015)

Well, my friend, it's been a long day.  

I didn't start this post to debate petroleum vs. synthetic.  I just wanted to, hopefully, assist those not versed in the subject with an alternative, or if you prefer, another point of view regarding lubricating there equipment.  If you choose to use goose grease on your ways and lard in your head stock, that's fine with me.  I'm sure the parts manufactures will be happy too.  On my part, I prefere using a known and tested product that gives me the best results for my money.  I want my equipment to last a long time with the fewest problem and failures.  So I use what I consider to be the most efficient products available.  But I want you to use whatever makes you happy.

For what it's worth, if it weren't for additives added to ALL automotive lubricants you wouldn't get ten miles down the road before your engine seized up tighter than a bulls a$$ at fly time.  And none of them are a secret formula.

Happy machining,

Ron


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## kingmt01 (Jun 7, 2015)

I completely agree with you except for the specific formulas that each company uses. I really got a laugh out of the lard comment also.


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 7, 2015)

You're absolutely correct about different formulas by individual companies.  They all have proprietary recipes they feel are best.  But they are far from secret.  Any lab can use spectrography to analyze the individual properties of any given formula and determine what is in it and how much.  No such thing as a secret.  Not in this day and age.  All that being said, all we care about as machinists is how well it works at ambient temperatures, and is it cost effective.

Have a good evening, 

Ron


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## roy c (Jun 10, 2015)

Rangemaster1 said:


> You're absolutely correct about different formulas by individual companies.  They all have proprietary recipes they feel are best.  But they are far from secret.  Any lab can use spectrography to analyze the individual properties of any given formula and determine what is in it and how much.  No such thing as a secret.  Not in this day and age.  All that being said, all we care about as machinists is how well it works at ambient temperatures, and is it cost effective.
> 
> Have a good evening,
> 
> Ron





Rangemaster1 said:


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I hope this posting is done correctly as I am a newby, first post.
Thank you rangemaster1 for answering a question before I asked it. I am referring to the needle idea but I will try synthetic oil also.
roy c


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## roy c (Jun 10, 2015)

Rangemaster1 said:


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## roy c (Jun 10, 2015)

Thank you rangemaster1 for answering a question that has been on my mind. I am referring to the needle idea but I will try synthetic oil also.
roy c


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## Bob Korves (Jun 12, 2015)

For lubing the ball oilers I get some clear Tygon (or generic) aquarium air pump size plastic tubing (1/8"?).  Cut about a 2" piece of it, nice and square and neat on the ball oiler business end, then push the other end over the spout of your oil gun.  It will fit most oil guns.  Then push the open end of the tubing onto the ball oiler firmly with your fingers and pump away.  The tubing seals at the top of the oiler so no oil goes anywhere except into the oiler.  You can see the oil start flowing into the oilers.  After a couple years the tubing gets stiff from the oil and won't work correctly.  Simply cut a new piece of tubing and replace the old one.  A foot of tubing will last 10 years or more.  The oiler is also completely usable in the usual way for oiling other stuff.  The soft tubing also does not scratch delicate or highly polished parts.


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## Bob Korves (Jun 15, 2015)

Bob Korves said:


> For lubing the ball oilers I get some clear Tygon (or generic) aquarium air pump size plastic tubing (1/8"?).  Cut about a 2" piece of it, nice and square and neat on the ball oiler business end, then push the other end over the spout of your oil gun.  It will fit most oil guns.  Then push the open end of the tubing onto the ball oiler firmly with your fingers and pump away.  The tubing seals at the top of the oiler so no oil goes anywhere except into the oiler.  You can see the oil start flowing into the oilers.  After a couple years the tubing gets stiff from the oil and won't work correctly.  Simply cut a new piece of tubing and replace the old one.  A foot of tubing will last 10 years or more.  The oiler is also completely usable in the usual way for oiling other stuff.  The soft tubing also does not scratch delicate or highly polished parts.



One more thing.  Don't push the ball down into the oiler very far or it can get stuck down there.  I did that while using a oil can where the tip was tapered to a small point and I could never get the ball to come back up again, even fishing around through the hole with wires and stuff.  I finally had to replace the oiler, and bought a couple spares while I was at it.  You will not have that problem using the Tygon tubing.


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## kingmt01 (Jun 15, 2015)

Yelp. I done that too.


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 18, 2015)

Another good problem solver.


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## British Steel (Jun 19, 2015)

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it yet... 

Additives.
Older lathes with bronze/brass/copper components don't like 'em, a lot of the modern oils will leach out the copper, leaving severely degraded bearing surfaces.
Any lathe without a fine filter in its lubrication system doesn't want the modern detergent additives found in synthetic oils, they keep the crud in suspension passing around your gears and bearings instead of letting it settle in the bottom of a casing.
"sticky " additives will hold crud on bearing surfaces, even if you try to wipe it away.

I'll stick with straight mineral-based non-foaming hydraulic fluid, supplemented with commercial way oil where needed (my lathe pumps oil from the apron to the carriage ways, no need there, so just the tailstock...)


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## kingmt01 (Jun 19, 2015)

British Steel said:


> I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it yet...
> 
> Additives.
> Older lathes with bronze/brass/copper components don't like 'em, a lot of the modern oils will leach out the copper, leaving severely degraded bearing surfaces.
> ...


Probably because we didn't know that. I didn't know anything about the additives attacking brass.


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## John Hasler (Jun 19, 2015)

kingmt01 said:


> Probably because we didn't know that. I didn't know anything about the additives attacking brass.


Just avoid EP additives.  Some sulfur-based ones attack brass under some conditions.


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## Falcon67 (Jun 19, 2015)

> The cross hatch marks were still in the cylinders because I didn't break it in long enough.


This doesn't have anything to do with "break in".  It has to do with fit, finish, ring coating, wall finish and maintenance.  The 351C in my wife's Mustang drag car was apart after 2000 passes, still had visible crosshatch.  The 302 I'm running now in my car I built in 1996 - refreshed in 2010, still cross hatch visible.  None of those engines run synthetic - because of cost and because should the worst happen, its a hell of a lot easier to clean conventional oil off a drag strip than synthetic LOL.  Everything else (except the mower) runs synthetic.


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 19, 2015)

British Steel said:


> I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it yet...
> 
> Additives.
> Older lathes with bronze/brass/copper components don't like 'em, a lot of the modern oils will leach out the copper, leaving severely degraded bearing surfaces.
> ...



What or where is the source of this information?


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## kingmt01 (Jun 19, 2015)

I actually seen it several times after he mentioned it but I didn't look hard enough to find a source I'd actually reference.


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## John Hasler (Jun 19, 2015)

Rangemaster1 said:


> What or where is the source of this information?


Search "brass" + "EP additive"

Example:
http://habotmarketing.blogspot.com/2012/07/extreme-pressure-oil-additives-can.html


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 19, 2015)

Originally this discussion was regarding synthetic oils used in automobile engines, not heavy industrial equipment.  How it morfed into extreme pressure gear lubes, I'm not sure.  However, to be perfectly clear, I was referring to SAE engine oils.  Those particular lubricants are designed for use in engines and gear trains that can be composed of many different metals, including copper and brass.  They will not damage your lathe or any other equipment normally found in a home shop.

There is no doubt that some lubricants could and would be damaging to some metals due to their particular additive package.  Modern engine oils do not contain, nor would they be allowed to contain those types of detrimental additives.


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## British Steel (Jun 19, 2015)

Nope, originally it was about oil ports and oilers on lathes, and which oils to use


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## John Hasler (Jun 19, 2015)

Rangemaster1 said:


> Originally this discussion was regarding synthetic oils used in automobile engines, not heavy industrial equipment.  How it morfed into extreme pressure gear lubes, I'm not sure.  However, to be perfectly clear, I was referring to SAE engine oils.  Those particular lubricants are designed for use in engines and gear trains that can be composed of many different metals, including copper and brass.  They will not damage your lathe or any other equipment normally found in a home shop.
> 
> There is no doubt that some lubricants could and would be damaging to some metals due to their particular additive package.  Modern engine oils do not contain, nor would they be allowed to contain those types of detrimental additives.


I agree that SAE crankcase oils are unlikely to damage machines, even if "yellow metal" is present.  I think that the rumor that all additives are bad for brass originates with the EP problem.

Detergent are added primarily to deal with products of combustion.  I doubt that they do anything in a mill or lathe.


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 19, 2015)

I'm not versed on all the EP uses for synthetics.  I would suppose if you ran a rock crusher, specially formulated lubes may be a requirement.  I doubt that type of oil is readily available to the general buying public.   It's too specialized.  I just wouldn't want some poor newbie to think he might ruin his equipment using an automotive synthetic.  Things move so much easier with synthetics.

That having been said, never use lube containing molybdenum disulfide (moly) on any type of roller bearings unless it's is specifically designated for that purpose ( as some are ).  Moly generally acts like sand on a rolling surface and will cause bad things to happen.  It's primarily used on a sliding surfaces.  At least that's what the petroleum dudes tell me.  Since I believe them, I have never used it on roller bearings.  Sure works great on bullets.


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## kingmt01 (Jun 19, 2015)

Now I've never heard that. I try to always use molly. I've been packing my axle bearings since I started playing on anything with wheels. There is a bunch of cars out there on the road that I have serviced repacking there bearings with it. Big trucks also. Altho most of the trucks used oil.

I do try to use the correct lube on customers cats when I have access to a specs sheet unless they request something else.


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## mksj (Jun 20, 2015)

John Hasler said:


> Detergent are added primarily to deal with products of combustion. I doubt that they do anything in a mill or lathe.


Unless your machine has forced lubrication with a filter, I always read that a non-detergent oil should be used in splash lubrication systems. This prevents the particles from staying in suspension from the detergent. I have spoken to several oil manufactures like Amsoil about recommendations/EP products and affect on brass and bronze, most state they do not damage yellow metals. There may also be problems with some gear motor oils for manual transmissions and differentials, which are designed for synchromesh transmissions and limited slip diffs, as they have agents to produce a level of drag to help engagement. I just do not understand the infatuation of using motor oil in mill and lathe gearboxes, when there are specific manufacturer recommended oils (like Mobil) available from Enco at very reasonable prices and often with free shipping.  The other critical point is getting the correct viscosity for the machine and the temperature. Too high a viscosity increases frictional drag (heat) and decreases oil to the bearings at high RPM with splash lubrication.

On the original subject of this posting, my only issue with using a modified syringe needle dispenser is getting a seal against the oiler so the oil doesn't back flow. I have some naval bronze that I am going to try to turn down into a tip and mill a very shallow + on the tip to allow the oil to push out around the pall when the tip is pressed against the oiler.  My other issue is getting a decent oil can that doesn't leak all over you and can pump with reasonable pressure, probably need to look for a NOS pump oiler before everything was outsourced.


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## John Hasler (Jun 20, 2015)

mksj said:


> Unless your machine has forced lubrication with a filter, I always read that a non-detergent oil should be used in splash lubrication systems. This prevents the particles from staying in suspension from the detergent.


The "detergents" in detergent oils are there to suspend products of combustion, not wear particles.


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## John Hasler (Jun 20, 2015)

John Hasler said:


> The "detergents" in detergent oils are there to suspend products of combustion, not wear particles.


A relevant discussion:
https://books.google.com/books?id=C...focus=viewport&dq=detergent+oil+wear+particle


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 20, 2015)

Very informative.  Hopefully people read it.  Too bad the entire treatise wasn't available.


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## Rangemaster1 (Jun 20, 2015)

Another interesting read.  Somewhat shorter.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/synthetic-vs-conventional-oil/


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## mksj (Jun 20, 2015)

Sorry, but "detergent oils hold contaminants in suspension so that a filter in the system can remove them. In a system with no filter...the contaminants in suspension eventually become a microscopic lapping compound...wearing down the surfaces the oil is supposed to be protecting" and "Lubrication is probably the one thing that will keep your machine humming along for a lifetime.  The type of oil you use in the machine is very important.  Use a 30W non-detergent oil.  We are often asked about using automobile oil which we don't recommend because it has detergents which suspend debris in the oil.  The non-detergent oil allows particles to settle to the bottom of the oil reservoir.  You don't want your gears bathed with oil and debris, just oil will be fine. "

Just about every lathe manual I have reviewed where splash lubrication is used specifies non-detergent oil. Detergent oils are for pressurized systems with a filter.


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## kingmt01 (Jun 20, 2015)

I was actually able to buy the correct oil suggested for my lathe at a cheaper price then engine oil at my local auto parts store. I do suggest you know your oil before going in since likely the people won't know anything about it. One of the oils I had to buy in a 5 gallon bucket which was twice the amount I needed but it is also the same oil that is used in jacks & I had several that needed serviced.


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## Rangemaster1 (Jul 3, 2015)

For what it's worth, for those who prefere a non-detergent gear oil, synthetics are readily available.  I'm not sure about all manufacturers, but I do know (because I use them) AMSOIL does make several different kinds of 100% synthetic gear lubes for transmissions, transaxles and differentials.  You get to choose or contact the company for their advice regarding your particular application.  It's almost uncanny how much quieter a gear train is with synthetic oil.


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## ML_Woy (Jul 20, 2015)

Rangemaster1 said:


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Thanks for the tip on using a needle, went out to the horse barn and grabbed on and gave it a try, works great.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 20, 2015)

ML_Woy said:


> Thanks for the tip on using a needle, went out to the horse barn and grabbed on and gave it a try, works great.


Like I said earlier, be careful with pushing down the ball with a needle oiler or anything else.  If you push it down too far it will get stuck off to the side and not pop back up.  I tried pretty hard and was unable to get the ball back up onto its seat.  That will let contamination in and the ball oiler will need to be replaced.  Been there, done that...


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## chips&more (Jul 20, 2015)

Frankly, I do not care much for the spring loaded ball oilers (SLBO). Especially on the carriage of a metal lathe, like yours, Rangemaster1 and mine too! The problem is you cannot get all the swarf removed from the SLBO to get the fresh oil in without picking up some swarf as well. I would think a vacuum of some kind would be the best, but my attempts leave me wondering if I got all the swarf out of the way? My solution is to just squirt oil at the ends of the carriage where the wipes are and everywhere else I see fit. My lathe is wet with oil all the time. I realize the wipes will wipe away a lot of the oil, but some will remain. I have had my lathe now for over 35 years and she still holds tolerance, no rust and I do not use the SLBO’s…Good Luck, Dave.


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## RJSakowski (Jul 20, 2015)

An interesting discussion.  I had hoped for a definitive answer regarding detergent vs. non-detergent oil and find that there all a lot of opinions out there regarding the subject and perhaps not all that much fact to back up those opinions.  My concern is that the user manuals for lathes and mills state unequivocally that I should be using a non detergent oil but finding one locally is well nigh impossible.  When you do find one, it is usually and off brand of questionable quality.  

My take on the subject is this: for oiling systems with ball oilers, the oiling schedule  is meant to to replace old oil with fresh, forcing the old oil out, If a detergent oil truly does suspend the wear products, they would be flushed out with the old oil which is a good thing.  

I'm not so sure about the gear boxes or other systems that recirculate the oil.  One thing is certain though, an oiling system in a lathe or milling machine in no way experiences the kind of conditions seen in an internal combustion engine.

My impression regarding synthetics was that they were carefully  controlled blends of various oils and additives as compared to natural oils produced by fractionating crude oil where you have no control over what the dinosaur to giant fern ratio is.  A such, the resulting physical and chemical characteristics of a synthetic oil could be better maintained to give you an oil with better viscosity control over an extended temperature range and with an extended service life.  Unfortunately, "synthetic oil" seems to be more of  a marketing term these days.

I had the need to buy some 2 cycle oil for my Stihl chain saw last month.  I looked in my user manual and  it said specifically not not use oil rated for water cooled engines.  Now, I have always used the two cycle oil  used for outboards for my chain saws.  This started an online search where I ran into all kinds of opinions regarding the correct oil to use.  In the end, I capitulated and bought the Stihl brand synthetic oil.  After all, it only added an additional $1 to the cost of a gallon of gas. The manual for my Mariner outboard states use Mercury brand 2 cycle oil at a 50:1 mix; for any other brand mix 16:1.  I am sure that Evinrude and Honda say much the same thing.  

The point is that all of these "scientific" studies and white papers are biased in selling their particular brand of oil and, at least IMO, are just opinions.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 20, 2015)

We have probably about beat this to death, and people's existing opinions will mostly remain intact.  For my mill and lathe, I use the oils specified in the manual.  Not necessarily the brand specified, but the same spec oil.  For my car, I use the grade and viscosity of oil and other lubricants specified in the manual.  For protecting parts and tools from rust I use ATF, the cheaper the better.  I try to consciously ignore all advertising, hype, and internet opinions and simply buy the specified lubricants at the best possible pricing.  Works for me so far...


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## tweinke (Jul 20, 2015)

Some oil is better then no oil, but correct oil is best


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## 4GSR (Jul 20, 2015)

Dad always told me that motor oil had some form of paraffin in the oil.  The paraffin or wax would build up on bearing surfaces, starving lubrication from the bearing, which causes wear or bearing failure.  Not sure I believe all of that, but could be true.  Regardless, I don't use motor oil for lubrication on my machines.  I have two lubricants I use, way oil and ISO 46 hydraulic oil.  They have served me for quite well for a number of years now.


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## John Hasler (Jul 20, 2015)

4gsr said:


> Dad always told me that motor oil had some form of paraffin in the oil.  The paraffin or wax would build up on bearing surfaces, starving lubrication from the bearing, which causes wear or bearing failure.  Not sure I believe all of that, but could be true.  Regardless, I don't use motor oil for lubrication on my machines.  I have two lubricants I use, way oil and ISO 46 hydraulic oil.  They have served me for quite well for a number of years now.


Old motor oils may have contained long-chain hydrocarbons that would not have been problematic at engine temperatures but which might have precipitated out at low temperatures in machine tools.  I doubt that such contaminants are present in modern oils, though.


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## RJSakowski (Jul 20, 2015)

4gsr said:


> Dad always told me that motor oil had some form of paraffin in the oil. .



Paraffins, are a a colloquial term for a class of saturated hydrocarbons known in organic chemistry as alkanes and are a major component of all crude oil.  They range in molecular weight from methane through the major components of gasoline up to the waxes and tars so motor oil would undoubtedly contain "paraffin".  

Kerosene is called paraffin in the UK.


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