# Getting the new knee mill off the pallet



## Pcmaker (Dec 3, 2020)

I ordered a Precision Matthes 835S knee mill and it's about 1400 lbs. I paid the extra 50 bucks for liftgate delivery. They'll wheel the crate into my garage. The problem is lifting the pallet so I can unbolt the mill and somehow get the pallet from below the mill. I have 2 weeks to figure this out. I have an 1 ton Harbor Freight engine hoist at my disposal. The legs of the engine hoist is V-shaped and cannot go into the mill because the pallet is too wide. 

Any tips? I gotta get the engine hoist in, so I can hook it up to the eye bolt to lift


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## Mitch Alsup (Dec 3, 2020)

My 1200 pound knee mill was lag bolted to the pallet from the top where the bolts were accessible.
We also use an engine hoist to lift and manouver the mill.


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## benmychree (Dec 3, 2020)

Could you use a saw to partially cut the pallet away to allow the hoist to fit in?


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## lis2323 (Dec 3, 2020)

IF the truck with lift gate can back up to your garage door...

have the driver place the pallet with mill on the gate and lower within a foot of ground level WITHOUT the pallet jack. 

Slide your engine lift under the tailgate. Pick up assembly. Hopefully wheel carefully into position. Unbolt shipping pallet. Lower to floor. 



This of course is totally dependent on unloading close to your shop area on a level stable surface. 

I am fortunate to have forklifts on the farm..







Good luck


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## Danegineering (Dec 3, 2020)

A couple 6x6’s under the legs on the hoist to raise it above the height of the pallet. Lift the mill, and slide out the pallet. This assumes the legs on your hoist are longer than the pallet of course.


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## tq60 (Dec 3, 2020)

Buy or borrow a pallet jack and leave it bolted to the pallet.

Real easy to move it that way.

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## addertooth (Dec 3, 2020)

A 1 ton engine hoist can only lift it with the boom in the shortest position.   You have to use a 2 ton hoist to lift 1400 pounds with the boom at partial extension.  I know this, as I have the 1 ton version.   It is also possible the "V" of the legs won't open wide enough to get around the pallet.  This may be where a pallet jack may help you out.


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## hman (Dec 4, 2020)

I recently got a PM825S delivered to my house by liftgate truck.  I had the driver leave the mill at the street end of the driveway.  Don't recall if he offered to roll it to the shop (75 feet away), but no problem.  I'd bought a (Craigslist, ~$150)) pallet jack in anticipation a couple weeks earlier, so I was able to move it into the shop myself.  Once it was uncrated and in the shop (still lag screwed to the pallet), I was able to plan for the legs/feet.  After I'd bought the steel & feet, then drilled & tapped the steel, I asked a neighbor with a backhoe to help.  He lifted the mill off the pallet for me, I attached the steel bars, and moved the mill into place using the pallet jack.  I bought feet with long stems, so I'd be able to raise the steel bars high enough to get the pallet jack in.  Once in place, I lowered the feet nearly all the way (with a bit of fudge factor to level the mill).  The whole adventure is shown in post #51 at








						Base Feet for a Bridgeport
					

Randy  That was almost 5 years ago, and I can't really remember what I did yesterday. LOL  My mill is a Taiwan made clone of a Bridgeport, may even be made in the same factory that made the later models, but the supplier is one that deals only with industry, they do not have anything there that...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




I gave my neighbor two nice bottles of wine as a thank-you.  Don't have any idea how I could have lifted the mill off the pallet otherwise.  I do have a 2 ton engine hoist, but its reach is nowhere near hight enough to have lifted the mill!  Hope you can find a helpful neighbor!


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## Stefants (Dec 4, 2020)

I built a gantry to lift mine for this purpose. A few 2x6’s, some bracing, a ratchet strap to hold the legs from spreading. The geometry kept it from wanting to fall over. Worked very nicely.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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## Masterjuggler (Dec 4, 2020)

Stefants said:


> I built a gantry to lift mine for this purpose. A few 2x6’s, some bracing, a ratchet strap to hold the legs from spreading. The geometry kept it from wanting to fall over. Worked very nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm definitely saving this for future use, I love it.


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## cathead (Dec 4, 2020)

Any access to the rafters, like an attic opening?  That's what I used.  The load was shared over three
rafters on two foot centers with a stout pole.   The lifting was done with a chain fall hoist, quite uneventful.


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## tjb (Dec 4, 2020)

Strikes me that without different lift equipment, the suggestions by lis2323 (Post #4) and Danengineering (Post #5) are the most logical.  But you still have some other variables to consider:
First - It's a given that the footprint of your hoist is not larger than the base of the pallet.  Are you SURE that it's bigger than the base of the mill?  If not, you won't be able to set it down on the shop floor.
Second - And as addertooth noted (Post #7), that strategy is still constrained by the lift capacity of your one-ton hoist.  You need enough clearance in its footprint to allow you to lift from at least the 1,500 lb. position.
Third - How far will you need to move it?  If you only need to reposition it in your garage, I would think the safest method, given your equipment constraints, would be to remove it from the pallet BEFORE rolling it into position and with as little movement as possible.  Then use a couple of sections of pipe or round rod to roll it into its permanent resting place.  I have easily moved two mills all the way across my shop that way, and positioned them virtually exactly where I wanted them.  You'll need to make yourself a long-handled pry bar with a cleat on the end to insert/remove the pipe, but that's pretty easy, and you can use material that can be re-purposed.  That method is very safe.  You're never more than a fraction of an inch off the floor.  All this, of course, is predicated on the assumption you're moving across a level floor with no steps or other obstacles.  I seem to recall you can find several videos on youtube that demonstrate this approach in practice.  If you're interested, I can send you a picture of the pry bar I made.  (I think I still have it.)  I made mine with a long handle which makes it very easy to tilt.
Fourth - Can you buy or rent a larger capacity engine hoist with a larger footprint?  That would likely resolve all your challenges.

Regards,
Terry


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## bill70j (Dec 4, 2020)

Not sure if this helps, but....

Crow Bar + Toe Jack.  Lift one corner of the pallet 1/2", place a block under that corner, then repeat the process on all 4 corners until the hoist legs fit underneath the pallet. 

Worked for me for an 1800 lb. lathe.


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## talvare (Dec 4, 2020)

I went with the home made gantry to get my mill off of a flat bed trailer. Came in handy for a couple of other tasks before I dismantled it.
Ted


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## pontiac428 (Dec 4, 2020)

The "Egyptian method" of toe jack, 60" pry bar, and lots of wood blocks is a good way to do it.  I don't know if I'd be so keen on trying an engine hoist again, I damn near flipped a trailer end over end onto my shop roof when this totally preventable mishap occurred.  Hey, I saw people on YouTube doing it, so it must work!


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## middle.road (Dec 4, 2020)

Lots of wood blocks as @pontiac428 mentions above.
 6x6's, 2x6's 2x4's, some 3/4" plywood comes in handy also.
(1) Post Hole Digger and Tamping Bar (shown below)
I use one to move all my machines, from the Bridgeport, the Index to the Drill Press. Low cost 'Johnson' bar.
(Also it looks like there are two large holes in the base of the mill about 12" up. Wonder if a large pipe would fit thru them.)
Taking it one end at time, slow and easy.
Support it in the middle front with 2x6's getting the corners up, and leaving the back side resting securely on the pallet.
Cut away the pallet under the corners for a couple of 6x6's. Lower front onto the 6x6's, nice and firmly rested.
Repeat at the rear.
Then incrementally lower each end no more than 1" or so. I use a lot of 3/4" plywood cutoffs.
Get it down on pipe on the floor and scoot into position.
It's time consuming but it works.


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## tjb (Dec 4, 2020)

PCMaker,

If you zoom in on Ted's Post #14, you'll notice that he has pipe between the mill's base and the floor (looks to be about 1").  That's a good illustration of what I mentioned above.  Rolling around in the shop is very easy with pipe or solid round.

Also, John's Post #15 shows you exactly what can happen if you use an undersized hoist.  Give a lot of thought about using your hoist on that mill.

If you can't get the appropriate equipment, you can build a gantry as suggested above, or use John's (Post #15) and Dan's (Post #16) method.  Slower, but definitely safer than your hoist.

Also, no one's mentioned it, but to the extent you're able to procure it, a couple of friends or relatives with strong backs comes in mighty handy.

Regards


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## Pcmaker (Dec 4, 2020)

I have a toe jack, too.

I'm thinking of buying a 2 ton engine hoist to replace my 1 ton


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## tjb (Dec 4, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I have a toe jack, too.
> 
> I'm thinking of buying a 2 ton engine hoist to replace my 1 ton


Wise choice.


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## addertooth (Dec 4, 2020)

smart move


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## lis2323 (Dec 4, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I have a toe jack, too.
> 
> I'm thinking of buying a 2 ton engine hoist to replace my 1 ton



Lift capacity is only part of the equation. Stability is most important. OMHO of course. 


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## Pcmaker (Dec 4, 2020)

I just need to lift the mill high enough to get some pipes under so I can move the mill around. The biggest issue is getting the pallet off from under


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## hman (Dec 4, 2020)

Unfortunately, the PM835S can NOT be rolled on pipes.  The base is not flat.  Only the outer 8" at each end of the of the long side of the base is on the floor.  There's a ~¾" scallop cut out between the "feet.  The short side is 20", with the same scallop and 5" "feet."  Several of the photos in my post at https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/base-feet-for-a-bridgeport.1362/page-2 show the scallop.

PS - the two round "cross holes" are about 2 ⅝" diameter.  The casting sides around the holes are somewhat reinforced, and there is no barrier between them.  My best guess is that the foundry used a modified forklift with round forks to lift and move the base castings.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 4, 2020)

I'll just use a johnson bar to move it towards the wall. Moving it won't be  too big of an issue with a johnson bar. It'll only be a few feet away from where they'll set the crate to where its permanent position will be


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## tjb (Dec 4, 2020)

hman said:


> Unfortunately, the PM835S can NOT be rolled on pipes.  The base is not flat.  Only the outer 8" at each end of the of the long side of the base is on the floor.  There's a ~¾" scallop cut out between the "feet.  The short side is 20", with the same scallop and 5" "feet."  I'll get some photos a bit later, busy right now.
> 
> PS - the two round "cross holes" are about 2 ⅝" diameter.  The casting sides around the holes are somewhat reinforced, and there is no barrier between them.  My best guess is that the foundry used a modified forklift with round forks to lift and move the base castings.


Both mills that I moved that way have the same scallop.  Actually, it makes it a little safer because you're less likely to roll the mill off the pipe(s).  I'm pretty sure most mills have that kind of recess.  Unless you're talking about something different, Ted's photo on Post #14 shows the same recess as is on my mill.  It can be done with either one or two pipes: roll it as far as you can, use the toe clamp to lift one side, reposition the pipe, repeat as often as necessary to get it where you want it.

Regards


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## Barncat (Dec 4, 2020)

It is surprisingly easy to move large machines around on pipes. I wouldn't think that the scalloped area would be too much of a problem with large enough diameter pipes. I moved a 1900 lb surface grinder with (3) 3' sections of 3/4" black gas pipe. Just rolled it into position then lifted it slightly with a pry bar, took the front pipe out  and slipped some wooden blocks under the front and sides and left the pipe under the back in case I want to move it again.


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## tjb (Dec 4, 2020)

Barncat said:


> It is surprisingly easy to move large machines around on pipes.


I fully agree.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 4, 2020)

I hope the delivery guy can get the crate into my garage. On the PM site, it says the crate is 80" tall. I just measured the floor to the lowest part of my garage door opening and it's at 81.5".


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## matthewsx (Dec 5, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I hope the delivery guy can get the crate into my garage. On the PM site, it says the crate is 80" tall. I just measured the floor to the lowest part of my garage door opening and it's at 81.5".



Count on it being dropped off in the driveway then, you may have to get it off the palate just to get into the garage.

John


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## Barncat (Dec 5, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I hope the delivery guy can get the crate into my garage. On the PM site, it says the crate is 80" tall. I just measured the floor to the lowest part of my garage door opening and it's at 81.5".


May not fit once it is lifted with the pallet jack. Some garage doors can roll up a little higher if they are disconnected from the drive system and manually pushed up a little more. If the driver is nice he may wait a minute for you to buzz the top of the crate off with a circular saw, then it would probably fit.


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## tjb (Dec 5, 2020)

PCMaker, in your original post you noted "they'll wheel the crate" into your garage.  How?  Will they use a pallet jack?  If so, you'll almost definitely need to buzz off the top of the crate.  I would think doing that will buy you at least three or four inches.  Likely not necessary, but you may want to have a ratchet strap handy to gird around the crate after you remove the top.  As Barncat suggested, hopefully the driver will be kind enough to wait and let you do that.  The upside of him using a pallet jack would be (if he's willing), he can transport it to as close as possible to its final resting place (assuming that's in your garage).

In a perfect world, driveways have a slight downward slope and/or a lip away from the garage to direct rain water.  That may operate against you if he's using a pallet jack (maybe not).  But if he backs up to the garage and unloads straight from the liftgate, that may operate in your favor (again, maybe not).

Challenges, challenges.

Regards


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## Dabbler (Dec 5, 2020)

@Pcmaker I've taken mills off of pallets a bunch of times, using a variety of equipment.  My biggest mill (3800lbs) came on 2 stacked pallets! 

By far the safest and least complicated method is to buy a 2 ton gantry crane and lift it vertically.   You need to be careful about your lifting points.  Please do NOT lift your mill by the ram:  the dovetails and the X clamp are not sized to take the entire mill weight - even if some people get away with it.

The way I get mills off of pallets is a tedious process (that is very cheap) by using a pry bar, blocking, and eventually steel bars to lift it off of the pallet.  If you choose to do this, be aware that the mill is very top-heavy, and can tip if you get it off vertical by too  much...  

Keep safe, and always have an exit path, even when using commercial lifting equipment!  (boy do I sound like a safety troll!)
you might be interested in my moving machines thread:








						Moving big equipment out of a basement...
					

Last year I bought most of the machines from a guy's basement machine shop.  I also agreed to clear his basement of all machines, by taking them up the stairs. I thought I'd post a few highlights of that move, and answer questions about moving heavy equipment...  These are the machines I moved...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## ddickey (Dec 5, 2020)

Can you move gantry cranes once loaded or are they supposed to stay stationary once they are loaded.


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## Dabbler (Dec 5, 2020)

ddickey said:


> Can you move gantry cranes once loaded or are they supposed to stay stationary once they are loaded.



great question!  Most of the time, on most gantry cranes, no.  _Especially _on this type of gantry crane, absolutely not:




the above type is just too fragile to cope with a swinging load.  AND it will tip over.  I've seen it done!

_however_ with an A frame gantry, rated well above the load size, with the load almost touching the ground, it can be done safely.  I've done it with this crane several times with 900-1000 lb loads.  the crane is rated at 5 tons.


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## Barncat (Dec 5, 2020)

ddickey said:


> Can you move gantry cranes once loaded or are they supposed to stay stationary once they are loaded.


Most aren't meant to be moved. I have, but only if the load has been lowered to just a hair above the ground.


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## ddickey (Dec 5, 2020)

Ah yes, big difference there.


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## brino (Dec 5, 2020)

There is also @Franko 's clever method on modifying the base of the engine hoist to make it much more useful.

His thread is here:
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/frankos-hf-engine-hoist-mod.39516/post-339045




-brino


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## ddickey (Dec 5, 2020)

I too have to lift a 3200 lb mill off a pallet sometime before the first of the year.


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## addertooth (Dec 5, 2020)

Contact the commander of your local National Guard "Combat Engineer Unit", or alternately "Heavy Engineer Unit" (face to face is the best).  Offer a Pizza party for a Company Sized Element upon completion of the "training exercise".  Those guys have the lift equipment, as well as the know how to move really big and heavy stuff.  My old Combat Engineer unit (in Oklahoma), would build custom gantries from timber, hoist and move "Humvees" just for ****s and giggles.  Light the fuse, stand back, and watch their smoke.  They have equipment which looks similar to a fork lift (tractor wheeled SEE), which is actually more capable than a fork lift. The 878th out of Georgia comes to mind, those guys like to play hard.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 5, 2020)

I emailed PM and asked them if they could maybe make the crate a little bit shorter.

Also, maybe I'm better off hiring a rigger to do the job. I don't know how much they usually charge, but hopefully it's cheaper than buying all this ptactically one-time use equipment just to unpack the mill.


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## Jubil (Dec 5, 2020)

My vote goes to pry bar and several pieces of scrap lumber along with some short, (long enough to span the bottom of the machine), lengths of 1”- 2” pipe for rolling. And/or a pallet jack. Rental yards and some big box stores rent pallet jacks for about $35 per day.
A few years back I bought 7 machines from a tool and die shop. 1 Bridgeport mill 1900#, 1 Cincinnati hv mill 2500+#, sinker edm est. 3000+#, 1 small K&T horizontal mill 3000+#, 3 surface grinders 500-3500#. All sitting flat on the floor. Had to move them out of a room before I could get a forklift to load them.
A friend who could barely walk helped me move them all with pry bar etc. as above. Not trying to brag just saying it can be done this way, very inexpensively.

Chuck


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## matthewsx (Dec 5, 2020)

Biggest factor will be the slope of your driveway. If it’s almost flat into the garage you have more options than if it’s fairly steep. Yes there are many ways to diy but if in doubt please leave it to the pros. You want all your fingers and toes to use the machine and fixing these tools after they’ve been dropped is expensive.

John


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## matthewsx (Dec 5, 2020)

Also, don’t know if you’ve put out a call for help here but when I did a couple of experienced members came to my aid. It made all the difference in having the confidence and tools to get the job done. There’s no way to brute strength these things, you need the tools and knowledge BEFORE you start.

John


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## akjeff (Dec 5, 2020)

I rented a forklift and hired a guy who's done it numerous times, to get my Lagun mill off the trailer, into the garage, and off the pallet( and mounted leveling feet under the base while it was off the floor ). Once on the leveling feet, it's easy to move around with just a pallet jack. The forklift rental was $125 well spent.


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## matthewsx (Dec 5, 2020)

Forklift is the best but you have to be able to get it into the garage. When I owned my business I could remove the cage from my forklift to get it into my small shop. If your garage door is low you’ll need to take that into consideration. Also the mast on the forklift may be higher than the mill itself depending on where you lift from.

I used to own a Gorton 1-22 MasterMill but let it go because I couldn’t figure a safe way to get it into my garage at the time. Knowing what I know now I would have made it work but that ship has sailed. Literally as I traded it for new rigging on my sailboat

John


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## kb58 (Dec 5, 2020)

At around 1500 lbs, a PM935 on pipes proves educational about what happens when you remove all friction on something heavy on a garage floor built with the standard slope. It was pretty amazing how it tried to head for the driveway - and how hard it was to stop! Have something like a wedge to stop it. Lesson learned!


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## petertha (Dec 5, 2020)

This is just to provide you some ideas. When my mill was delivered they used a pallet jack to get from truck into garage/shop over semi-smooth interlock brick driveway. I didn't have to rent one because they spotted machine in place with their own equipment, but seems like pallet jacks are easy to rent in most cities. Note the layer gription carpet or whatever in between the machine & forks. They also utilized used their 'jacking up' plates to elevate the mill off the blades. They are low profile & can be slid in & out of machines for applications like this.

One thing you might want to consider if you haven't already, is a base for the mill. My buddy welded mine from steel rectangle tube & I bought rubber machining mounts. That takes care of machine leveling, wider footprint, vibration reduction, work height optimization & potentially easier re-moving options all in one package. Lots of posts on this subject. I was able to have them mount my base at the shop which made life easy but it could have been done on location too. If I did it over again I would have paid more attention to pallet jack widths, widened my mount pucks a whopping 1/8" so the forks could slide in & out with the mounts pre-attached.


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## Dabbler (Dec 5, 2020)

When I bought my big mill, I got it delivered to my garage with tailgate delivery.  The slope from the lane to the garage, while only 7 feet, is about 17% grade, or 1 foot rise for every 6 or so feet.   Two of us, a 66 year old and a 77 year old hauled it up the slope using my pallet jack, on plywood over gravel, so it can be done.

However they couldn't forklift the rotting pallet, so they put the bad pallet on top of a good pallet!  yes, it was about 9" off the floor!.  I cut the bad pallet strategically, and inserted 2 - 6" wide by 1/2 " thick bars across the base, and used blocking and a pry bar to carefully take the weight off the pallets.  After that more cutting of the bad pallet, and sliding out the good one.  Putting down the 3800 lb mill was a bit but-puckering, but at 1/2" at a time, it came down very safely.  I lives on 2 4X4 PT wood skids until I can move it into final position...

here's  a good basic video on cribbing if you haven't been introduced to the formal rules:






What the video doesn't show that's really valuable is that you can use 3/4 or 1/2 inch plywood, same length and width to make smaller steps.


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## hman (Dec 5, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> Please do NOT lift your mill by the ram:  the dovetails and the X clamp are not sized to take the entire mill weight - even if some people get away with it.


Hmmmm ... I kinda disagree with that point.  PM says to lift the mill by the ram in their manual, and I even called them to verify.  What I WAS concerned with was lifting the mill by the (20mm) eye bolt atop the ram.  I was paranoid about lifting by a single (Chinese) piece of hardware.   PM's instructions did also mention using a sling strap, so that's the way I went.  I used a brand new strap rated for 2000 lbs, and by double-looping it (visible in my photos), I got some extra margarine of safety.

As for the dovetails - I just measured the cast iron around them.  The dovetails themselves are just a bit over 1" tall vertically, and about 14" long.  I myself would not be concerned about a failure in that massive an amount of iron.

Another possible point of failure is the four 12mm bolts that hold the ram base (turret) to the machine base.  The  ones on the PM mill are probably a lot smaller than those on a Bridgeport.  But even "standard" 12mm bolts are rated for a bit over 7500 lbs each.  So I don't think that's an issue.  I did replace the original Allen head bolts with some good flange head hex bolts while "fluff and buffing" the mill.  
<aside>
@Dabbler - I asssume this area is what you meant when you mentioned the "X clamp."  I seem to recall Bridgeports having something like that, to allow full head rotation.  The PM isn't that sophisticated.  It just has 4 curved slots on the base of the ram, which allow rotation of about ±10º on the four screws.

A final point for @Pcmaker - The mill ships with the head inverted and supported by the knee.  Be sure to leave the head that way, and lower the knee, if you plan to do any manual moving.  That will keep the center of gravity as low as possible.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 5, 2020)

Someone told me that they might just drop it off the side of the road since liftgate service is just that. I've had 2 machines delivered from PM before and both times, they used a pallet jack and asked me where I wanted to put it in my garage. 

Have you guys ever had this issue? I hope they at the very least put it on my driveway. Otherwise, if it's on the side of the road, I'd have no way to bring it to my garage.

Also, my plan as of now, if they can't put it inside my garage because of the height of the crate, but set it on my driveway instead, is to take off the top and sides of the crate to allow overhead clearance, then anchor a 1/2-13 eyebolt on my garage floor, then use a come-along to pull the crate from the driveway into my garage using rescue straps rated for 6k lbs.


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## 7milesup (Dec 5, 2020)

hman said:


> Hmmmm ...  I used a brand new strap rated for 2000 lbs, and by double-looping it (visible in my photos), I got some extra margarine of safety.



It looks like your move went buttery smooth...


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## Jim F (Dec 5, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Someone told me that they might just drop it off the side of the road since liftgate service is just that. I've had 2 machines delivered from PM before and both times, they used a pallet jack and asked me where I wanted to put it in my garage.
> 
> Have you guys ever had this issue? I hope they at the very least put it on my driveway. Otherwise, if it's on the side of the road, I'd have no way to bring it to my garage.
> 
> Also, my plan as of now, if they can't put it inside my garage because of the height of the crate, but set it on my driveway instead, is to take off the top and sides of the crate to allow overhead clearance, then anchor a 1/2-13 eyebolt on my garage floor, then use a come-along to pull the crate from the driveway into my garage using rescue straps rated for 6k lbs.


I would go larger than 1/2-13....


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## Dabbler (Dec 5, 2020)

hman said:


> to allow full head rotation.



*You are right @hman* -- I should have said never lift a _Bridgeport or BP clone_ by the RAM. I did not know that the PM versions were reinforced. However my PM945 (sourced from Modern, not PM) does thave an X in the turret, which is a weak point for lifting.

One guy I saw at an auction blew out a dovetail.  My mentor saw an X in the turret let go, which was far less disasterous.  I always lift a BP by the bottom, with cinch straps around the turret that stop it from tipping.  Never had one move a fraction, and safe lifts every time.


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## bill70j (Dec 5, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Someone told me that they might just drop it off the side of the road since liftgate service is just that. I've had 2 machines delivered from PM before and both times, they used a pallet jack and asked me where I wanted to put it in my garage.
> 
> Have you guys ever had this issue? I hope they at the very least put it on my driveway. Otherwise, if it's on the side of the road, I'd have no way to bring it to my garage.


The liftgate delivery for my lathe was specified to be just that - curbside only.  When they called and said they were ready to deliver, we winked and nodded.


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## Dabbler (Dec 5, 2020)

on my liftgate delivery, the guy put the liftgate onto the plywood on the gravel and said "it's all yours".  We used his pallet jack to get it up the slope.  He also said it was too heavy to put back into the truck...


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## Pcmaker (Dec 5, 2020)

Ugh I really hope he doesn't just drop it off at the curb. I don't even have a pallet jack myself.


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## hman (Dec 6, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> One guy I saw at an auction blew out a dovetail.  My mentor saw an X in the turret let go, which was far less disasterous.  I always lift a BP by the bottom, with cinch straps around the turret that stop it from tipping.  Never had one move a fraction, and safe lifts every time.


Hmmmm ... I did have two of those (rather longish) straps.  Might well have threaded them through the round holes in the machine base, led them upward to a central hoist point above the mill, and made sure to add a cinch strap around the top of the column.  That would definitely have increased the safety of the lift.  Live and learn!


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## rock_breaker (Dec 6, 2020)

If he drops it at the curb rent a fork lift. If on the driveway a pry bar, a hydraulic jack, a pipe and  lots of boards. At this point all you are trying to do is get it high enough to get off the pallet no higher. Once the bolts are removed you will have to let it down then raise it off the pallet. Two 2"X6" under each side, avoid a situation where they will tip, and no longer than what is necessary to remove the pallet should hold the mill.  After the pallet is gone you can let it down to move it. If your drive way is sloped keep wedges thicker than the pipe or roller diameter behind it as you move up the driveway.

There is a comment about two holes in the base, I would check with PM to ascertain if the holes in the machine can be used to raise it slightly by a jack and pipe to insert boards under the side that is lifted.  Use 2" lumber or less as you raise each side,* as has been said these machines are top heavy.  If you can get help do so but communicate as you work.*

I got boards by cutting pallets up, some businesses throw damaged ones away.

There are a lot of good ideas here and you have  a choice of any combination to keep the base of the mill near level at all times.

Have a good day
Ray


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## devils4ever (Dec 6, 2020)

I guess it depends on the driver. When my PM-25 mill (much smaller and lighter) was delivered, the driver put it in my garage in a spot I told him to. He used a pallet jack. I have an inclined, paved driveway and was concerned he would leave it at the bottom which would have been rough for me to get up to the top. But, he just backed into my driveway all the way to the top.


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## 7milesup (Dec 6, 2020)

The higher you can lift on a mill the greater the level of safety.  My 833 mill has 4 holes in the base for screw eyes.  I don't remember the size of the threads, but no way would I lift perpendicular to a screw eye.  The bending moment would be significant.  You always want as much mass below the lifting point as possible.  Straps around the column or head would be preferable.  As others have mentioned, knee mills are very tippy when moving.  All you have to do is look at some YouTube videos of moves gone wrong.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> no way would I lift perpendicular to a screw eye.



The surface grinder I just bought has holes for eye bolts on the side of the base so any load is perpendicular to the shaft of the eyebolt. I’m assuming that the bolt has to be positioned such that the eye is vertical?


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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> The surface grinder I just bought has holes for eye bolts on the side of the base so any load is perpendicular to the shaft of the eyebolt. I’m assuming that the bolt has to be positioned such that the eye is vertical?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Are the treaded holes intended for eye bolts? I honestly don’t know. Just asking. 



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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> no way would I lift perpendicular to a screw eye. The bending moment would be significant. You always want as much mass below the lifting point as possible. Straps around the column or head would be preferable. As others have mentioned, knee mills are very tippy when moving. .



Agreed


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## akjeff (Dec 6, 2020)

You definitely don't want to use lift eyes on the sides of the load. The angle of your rigging off the eye, should not exceed 45 degrees, and at 45 degrees the lift eye capacity should be de-rated to 30% of the load rating stamped on it. Also, be sure the threads are in good shape and fully engaged. The shoulder should be tightened firmly against the load, and if it isn't add shim washers to make that happen. Orient the eyes so that they are in line with the rigging. Angles over 45 degrees, should be corrected via a proper spreader bar.


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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Someone told me that they might just drop it off the side of the road since liftgate service is just that. .




Here is a little personal insight on “curb side delivery”


My business provided forklift delivery service (not machinery) and that was our stated policy for a plethora of scenarios....

For example. 

The homeowner is irate because he had PAID for DELIVERY and he wants it in his back yard / under his deck/ or help me get it down my steps into my low ceiling basement. 

Possible lawsuit for cracking driveways

“ Bring it through my neighbour’s yard it’ll be ok....”

Cars parked in the way and homeowner says to “wait until I get there”..

You get the pic. 



We would always gladly drop it in front of the garage door or wherever if it was possible to do so. 

If the guy’s  a whining dick complaining about the cost, then curb side it is and we’re outta there. “Have a nice life” . LOL


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## Pcmaker (Dec 6, 2020)

akjeff said:


> You definitely don't want to use lift eyes on the sides of the load. The angle of your rigging off the eye, should not exceed 45 degrees, and at 45 degrees the lift eye capacity should be de-rated to 30% of the load rating stamped on it. Also, be sure the threads are in good shape and fully engaged. The shoulder should be tightened firmly against the load, and if it isn't add shim washers to make that happen. Orient the eyes so that they are in line with the rigging. Angles over 45 degrees, should be corrected via a proper spreader bar.




I'm going to put 2 eyebolts on the concrete to share the load, then use a strap wrench on each eyebolt going to the come-along. The come-along will be pulling on a rescue strap wrapped around the crate.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 6, 2020)

lis2323 said:


> Are the treaded holes intended for eye bolts? I honestly don’t know. Just asking.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



The manual does specify using the tapped holes for lifting eyes 
I have just never seen them used that way. Albeit my experience is minimal. 


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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> The manual does specify using the tapped holes for lifting eyes
> I have just never seen them used that way. Albeit my experience is minimal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Cool thanks! 


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## 7milesup (Dec 6, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> The surface grinder I just bought has holes for eye bolts on the side of the base so any load is perpendicular to the shaft of the eyebolt. I’m assuming that the bolt has to be positioned such that the eye is vertical?



They might be Dave, but I would not use them.  I just don't understand how a manufacturer or distributor thinks that this is ok.  Maybe none of them have had a rudimentary physics class.  I just don't know.


This is one way that PM suggest lifting the mill, and the way in which I did it, although I had a different cherry picker setup than they do.
But, this is how I would *not* do it....


Here is text right from the manual....
_"MOVING THE MILL (using lifting eyes) The four lifting eyes provided with the mill allow other lifting choices, Figure 2-5. They can be hooked directly to steel cables, or used with 1" diameter steel rods, long enough (30" plus) to allow chains to be attached at both ends. A forklift is another option if steel rods are inserted through the eyes."_
Why they would even suggest that is beyond me.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> They might be Dave, but I would not use them.  I just don't understand how a manufacturer or distributor thinks that this is ok.  Maybe none of them have had a rudimentary physics class.  I just don't know.
> View attachment 346306
> 
> This is one way that PM suggest lifting the mill, and the way in which I did it, although I had a different cherry picker setup than they do.
> ...




Is it just me or is the front to that crane a lot higher than the back?

I guess it doesn't matter since all the weight is towards the front


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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> They might be Dave, but I would not use them. I just don't understand how a manufacturer or distributor thinks that this is ok. Maybe none of them have had a rudimentary physics class. I just don't know.
> View attachment 346306
> 
> This is one way that PM suggest lifting the mill, and the way in which I did it, although I had a different cherry picker setup than they do.
> ...



I totally agree. 7milesup in post 60 explains it best in detail. 


Edit. Sheesh. Just realized I was already quoting another of your posts. What a dumba$$! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk hoo


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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> or used with 1" diameter steel rods, long enough (30" plus) to allow chains to be attached at both ends. A forklift is another option if steel rods are inserted through the eyes.".




Actually that part I’m okay with......chains OR forklift. The 30” length and 1” diameter specified assures a certain amount of strength AND a stability. 

Plus they’re referring to a mill drill not a full size knee version.  Heck two guys can lift one quite easily. 




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## Pcmaker (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> They might be Dave, but I would not use them.  I just don't understand how a manufacturer or distributor thinks that this is ok.  Maybe none of them have had a rudimentary physics class.  I just don't know.
> View attachment 346306
> 
> This is one way that PM suggest lifting the mill, and the way in which I did it, although I had a different cherry picker setup than they do.
> ...




Instead of 2x4, I wonder if you can use car jack stands instead to lift up the front legs


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## Dabbler (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> no way would I lift perpendicular to a screw eye



I understand the need for absolute rules:  please don't lift that way if you don't know the design parameters.

If your angle of pull exceeds 45 degrees off the vertical on a rated, forged, premium eye bolt, it must be _derated_ to 1/2 of its yield strength.  This is a European and OSHA standard.  But that doesn't mean it is safe.  Only a fully qualified rigger can make a judgement in the actual situation.

I have built up actual experience over 40 years and hundreds of lifts.  I've never had an 'unplanned movement'.  I've never dropped anything.  Often with improvised equipment.  I'm trained in structural engineering but I'm NOT a board certified engineer.  I have, however trained brand new engineers on the job site and corrected mistakes before someone has died.

For those who have the interest and desire to do their own moves, there are a lot of good rules to live by....

The MAIN rule is ' Don't move anything in any direction that isn't planned and you have the know-how and experience to know it is safe"

-- before you go 'safety troll': this means that beginners can use a pry bar to slide a machine as long as it isn't tilted.  It means simple blocking can be used.  Pipes to roll a machine can be done - if you are on mostly level ground and have an escape path.  The list goes on....  I'm not about to try to make a rigging course.  They sell for thousands of dollars, and for good reason.


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## 7milesup (Dec 6, 2020)

Maybe I should have qualified my statement by saying that there is virtually no reason to lift a machine with 98% of its mass above the center of pivot.  I am not a pro at lifting and moving, but it just is not good practice in my opinion. If you are able to lift it with those terribly placed eye bolts, why not lift it with a strap high up so the majority of mass below the lifting point.


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## 7milesup (Dec 6, 2020)

lis2323 said:


> Heck two guys can lift one quite easily.



I don't know how strong you are but my 833 weighs around 900lbs.


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## 7milesup (Dec 6, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> If your angle of pull exceeds 45 degrees off the vertical on a rated, forged, premium eye bolt, it must be _derated_ to 1/2 of its yield strength. This is a European and OSHA standard. But that doesn't mean it is safe. Only a fully qualified rigger can make a judgement in the actual situation.


Dabbler, in the case of my mill posted above, it isn't so much about the strength of the eye bolts vis a vis lifting with 98% of the mass above the lifting point.


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## sdelivery (Dec 6, 2020)

lis2323 said:


> IF the truck with lift gate can back up to your garage door...
> 
> have the driver place the pallet with mill on the gate and lower within a foot of ground level WITHOUT the pallet jack.
> 
> ...





lis2323 said:


> IF the truck with lift gate can back up to your garage door...
> 
> have the driver place the pallet with mill on the gate and lower within a foot of ground level WITHOUT the pallet jack.
> 
> ...


Lis2323 has the right idea


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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> I don't know how strong you are but my 833 weighs around 900lbs.



LOL. Guess I'm used to looking at all the import toys. 


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## sdelivery (Dec 6, 2020)

I like Lis2323's idea. 
Go to Harbor Freight and get a replacement Ram Cylinder for your engine hoist.
I believe it is a 3 ton cylinder and bolted right in place of my existing cylinder. I am not a Harbor Freight fan but....


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## Dabbler (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> 98% of the mass above the lifting point



There are ways to transfer the force of the lift through the bottom of the machine, but prevent any possibility of it tipping.  One instance of this is:





This picture isn't a tutorial.  This base was lifted 5 times during the move, and rigged 3 times to make it happen.  The straps are captive under the flair at the top.  Tipping is not possible, even if any one strap breaks.  Each yellow strap was rated at 10X the lift, and the orange constraining strap was rated at 3 times the lift.


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## 7milesup (Dec 6, 2020)

What would keep those straps from sliding off around the corners?  I have seen lifts like that before.  Personally, I would have made provisions to ensure those straps didn't move, and not just at the top.  
To each his own.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 6, 2020)

Stefants said:


> I built a gantry to lift mine for this purpose. A few 2x6’s, some bracing, a ratchet strap to hold the legs from spreading. The geometry kept it from wanting to fall over. Worked very nicely.



You are a brave soul. 

I, too, have used wood framing for hoisting purposes. I have a lift I take the fiberglass cap off my truck bed with (2011 F350 long bed with a Leer 180 cap). The lift is modeled after the geometry of a conventional floor jack, only instead of hydraulic power it uses an electric winch with a few blocks to reduce the line speed/drop the load on the winch.

However.... The cap weighs no where near what your mill does!!! That is impressive.


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## ddickey (Dec 6, 2020)

sdelivery said:


> I like Lis2323's idea.
> Go to Harbor Freight and get a replacement Ram Cylinder for your engine hoist.
> I believe it is a 3 ton cylinder and bolted right in place of my existing cylinder. I am not a Harbor Freight fan but....


My 2 ton Horror Freight shop crane has an 8 ton cylinder jack.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 6, 2020)

I'm not sure how many of you are over on Welding Web also - but I saw the thread below earlier this Fall. If I had a good size building for a shop etc I'd love to make a mobile gantry like the one in the link below. That would make moving a lot of things a cake walk. 





__





						Gantry Crane Casters Build
					

I am building a gantry crane that can be used indoors and outside.  I wanted it to have large tires so it will have no issues rolling over gravel etc.    First I built the frame.    1718687    Then I started building casters.  I wanted all four to swivel but wanted the ability to lock them in a...



					weldingweb.com
				




I like the cherry picker ideas mentioned in the thread. Those can be pretty handy - but I agree the dimensions are less than ideal for moving floor mount machines like lathes and mills. Maybe a home-brew version with a wider spread between legs and beefed up framing + jack would be a good idea.


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## Dabbler (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> What would keep those straps from sliding off around the corners



It is an advanced technique but one I use often.   The orange strap is wrapped around each lifting strap 3 times (that's a magic number.... don't get me started on K times rho cubed...)  and then tightened.  There isn't slack in the orange strap, it is going around a protrusion, it is actually drawn tight..  It then forms a cage where the yellow straps can't move sideways, but still transfer the tension to the base.


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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> It is an advanced technique but one I use often. The orange strap is wrapped around each lifting strap 3 times (that's a magic number.... don't get me started on K times rho cubed...) and then tightened. There isn't slack in the orange strap, it is going around a protrusion, it is actually drawn tight.. It then forms a cage where the yellow straps can't move sideways, but still transfer the tension to the base.



I like it. Same concept as the cage on Posilock pullers. 







__





						Manual Pullers Archives - Posi Lock Puller, Inc.
					






					www.posilock.com
				





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## sdelivery (Dec 6, 2020)

I dont use the engine hoist to move the machines, only to lift or lower. I use black pipe to move the machines.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 6, 2020)

I only need the engine hoist to get the pallet out from the bottom. I'll be using a johnson bar to move the mill into place, one inch at a time.


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## lis2323 (Dec 6, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I only need the engine hoist to get the pallet out from the bottom. I'll be using a johnson bar to move the mill into place, one inch at a time.



BTDT. 

Not necessarily with a mill but other heavy machinery. Goes surprising well when you just take your time. The trick is to not get impatient trying to get bigger "bites". 


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## hman (Dec 7, 2020)

@Pcmaker - here are some some dimensions for you to be aware of.  They're from my own recently delivered PM835S:
Pallet height 8", width 48", depth 48"
The center of the "loop" of the lifting eye atop the ram is about 69" above the bottom of the mill.  

This means that the hook of your engine hoist must be capable of lifting from a point 69+8=77" above the ground.  When I uncrated my mill, I looked at the height required and knew that my 2 ton engine hoist was NOT going to do the job.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 7, 2020)

I sent PM an email and they said they'll write a note to make the crate as short as possible so it'll fit through my garage door opening. Also, they said they'll add an "inside delivery," which means the driver will place the pallet inside my garage for an extra $60, which I gladly paid for.

As for the height of the hoist, I plan on putting the hoist on top of some 2 x 6s so my hoist will sit on top of the pallet as well as to increase the overall height of the boom, as shown on the picture in the previous page.


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## tjb (Dec 7, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I sent PM an email and they said they'll write a note to make the crate as short as possible so it'll fit through my garage door opening. Also, they said they'll add an "inside delivery," which means the driver will place the pallet inside my garage for an extra $60, which I gladly paid for.
> 
> As for the height of the hoist, I plan on putting the hoist on top of some 2 x 6s so my hoist will sit on top of the pallet as well as to increase the overall height of the boom, as shown on the picture in the previous page.


Just to be sure, when you say your "hoist will sit on top of the pallet", you mean it will sit above the pallet, right?


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## Pcmaker (Dec 7, 2020)

tjb said:


> Just to be sure, when you say your "hoist will sit on top of the pallet", you mean it will sit above the pallet, right?



Like what this picture is showing:


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## Dabbler (Dec 7, 2020)

I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but the 'lifting eye' that is on top of the ram is *NOT for lifting the machine*. On BPs and BP clones, this is a cast shell around 1/2" in thickness.  Unless your machine weighs less than 1000 lbs, you run the very real risk of tear out.

This eye is intended for the ram and turret installation.  I've learned a lot from the guys here at Modern tool, who deliver dozens of mills a year, and up to 100 in a good year.  They won't even use the eye on a PM945 (equivalent).  They remove it and put it in the tool box upon receiving.  That mill is about 1600 lbs...  1340 lbs.

A great  way to lift a mill is to use lifting bars.  Mine are 3/4" X 4" X 36" cold rolled steel. They have a 3/4 NC hole in each end about 1/2" from the ends, through which 8" 3/4 ready rods (all-thread?) is run.  Using a Dewalt 20v impact gun I lifted my 3800 lb mill up with ease.  You lift 1/4" on a corner and do this going around the mill until it is as high as you need.  To protect your floor, I took  a 1/2 in fender washer and welded it to a grd 8 3/4" washer (because it's thicker) and run the ready rod on that.


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## schmidty13 (Dec 7, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but the 'lifting eye' that is on top of the ram is *NOT for lifting the machine*.



Screen shot from a old Bridgeport manual PDF I have.  I personally prefer option #2.  The eye bolt method makes me nervous.


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## Dabbler (Dec 7, 2020)

schmidty13 said:


> Screen shot from a old Bridgeport manual PDF I have.



Perhaps the older BPs had a heavier ram.  Modern tool tells me never to do it, and I have to bow to their experience.


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## Dabbler (Dec 7, 2020)

OK I stand corrected on the ram issue.  Although my trusted supplier says don't do it, the newest BP manual shows a similar lifting arrangement to @schmidty13 - lifting by the ram.


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## akjeff (Dec 7, 2020)

schmidty13 said:


> Screen shot from a old Bridgeport manual PDF I have.  I personally prefer option #2.  The eye bolt method makes me nervous.
> 
> View attachment 346484


Thats pretty much how Lagun suggests lifting in my FTV-1 manual. I'm fine with method 2, but I'm with Dabbler on Method 1. Not a big fan of lifting via that single eye. If the eye is used, be damn sure it's a top quality piece of hardware, and not some Chinese POS. And be certain you have adequate thread engagement. When I'm doing lifts at work, all of the lift eyes, shackles, etc have two things in common, the words Crosby and USA.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 8, 2020)

I just bought a 2-ton Harbor Freight engine hoist.


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## addertooth (Dec 9, 2020)

Good choice PCMaker.  Remember when lifting the mill, the first rule of hang gliders.... never be any higher from the ground, than you are willing to fall.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 9, 2020)

I just received the eyebolt for my mill from Amazon.


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## Tim9 (Dec 9, 2020)

I have removed pallets from under machinery by simply taking a sawzall  and chopping a few inches off each end of pallets so I can then fit 4x4’s under the machine. A sawzall and some pry bars easily and quickly can trim the pallet to size. Then prop your machine up with the 4 x 4‘s .... remove the pallet.... and then slowly drop each side about 1/2“ at a time. It’s pretty easy but harder to explain. Bottom line is that I use big 42” prying screwdriver made by Mayhew and 4 x 4’s plus 2 x 4’s. There’s always full length boards across the machine base and I’m only lowering each side about 1/2” at a time. It’s slow but safe. Pry bars and some wood. 



			https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015015H6/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_tKy0FbP8Y6ABR
		




			Amazon.com


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## K Hood (Dec 18, 2020)

Longtime lurker, first time poster. I was trained as a gunsmith and have about 40 years of experience doing gunsmithing-type machining operations, and even making scratch-built rifles, but I still do not consider myself a true machinist like many here.

So, as I read the OP’s comments, it was déjà vu all over again. I felt like I had somehow typed the words myself, since they so closely parallel my very recent concerns and experience. I just bought a PM 935 as well, along with a new 12x36 PM lathe. Two years away from retiring, I figured I better upgrade while I still feel comfortable spending that kind of money. Anyway, I took delivery just three weeks ago, and I feel the OP will be able to glean some valuable information from my experience. Here’s how it played out for me (so far).

I paid PM the extra for lift gate service and actually compromised on a smaller knee mill, because I felt the lift gate option was mandatory for me. The lift gate service was not available for the larger mill due to weight. This proved almost prophetic. First, PM was generally very helpful up until I placed the order, but those guys need to update their website specs on machine weight, as I will now explain. The freight company finally called to schedule delivery with its bobtail truck and lift gate. This was great news, since I was really hoping I could get them to back up into my driveway as close to the garage door as possible (There is a pretty good incline up into my garage.  I also was willing to suffer a few extra cracks in the driveway.). The same company then called two days later to notify me that the machines were way too heavy for the lift gate and too tall for their “box truck.” This was a huge red flag for me, and I could see all my fears about to play out: the machines dumped on my sidewalk, leaving me to get them up the driveway and into the garage myself. According to the PM website, the lathe was supposed to be 1000 lbs. and the mill 1400 lbs., but the bill of lading said 3600 lbs. total. How could that be? Well, PM finally admitted that the 3600 lbs. number was the actual weight, as the two packages were weighed when they left the PM facilities. Thanks a lot, guys.

In the same call, PM told me they would take care of it, though, but I didn’t hear anything for a couple of days. Then, Estes, the company that actually delivered the machinery from PA to Oklahoma City, called to set up delivery. This was a very good thing, as I was able to explain my situation. They were very accommodating and understanding and told me they would send their best man and the trailer with the best lift gate (?!). Unfortunately, the trailer meant no backing up into the driveway. There was also a concern that the lift gate had a 5-degree “sag,” and the top-heavy mill might topple over from the lift gate. I told them there was about a 5-degree incline in the road up to the driveway that would offset the sag, and that seemed to satisfy them.

The driver showed up on time and wanted to park the truck the other way, uphill, so that he didn’t have to push the mill and lathe up hill onto the lift gate with the pallet jack. He finally conceded the point on the 5-degree sag, though, and we got the lathe off first. The two of us were able to push the lathe up the driveway and into the garage using the pallet jack, but the driver was very concerned about the 2000 lbs., top-heavy mill. At this point, I got my son-in-law to come help. We got it on the lift gate and onto the ground without incident, but pushing it up the driveway was going to be problematic. The three of us did manage to get it pushed and pulled up the hill, but the crate was 84” tall, way too tall to fit in the garage door. We broke out the crow bar and hammers and had it uncrated in about 5 minutes. As promised, the mill had its head rotated down, and the height of 74”, including the 8” tall pallet, easily made it through the door. I can see no reason for PM to make the crate that tall other than possible convenience in using standard size material.

But, now the hard part: how does one get that heavy mill off the pallet without setting it right back down on the pallet jack or crane legs? This is where PM really disappointed me. They would speak in only vague terms about what others had done, like splitting or cutting away the pallet, mini fork trucks, hydraulic jacks, but no real guidance. I understand the liability, but this is their main business. I would think they could be a bit more helpful. Great minds must think alike, because I, too, bought the HF 2-ton engine hoist. Initially, I assumed I could leave the wheels off and slide the V-shaped legs under the pallet. They did slide underneath unassembled, but the Vee width was too wide and would not fit all the way through the pallet with the crane assembled. I considered slicing a foot off of each side of the pallet, hoping that would allow the assembled crane legs to fit, as there appeared to be full support of the mill from the full length slats of the pallet, but the position of the mill was such that, even if I got the machine off the pallet, it would sit right down on top of the crane legs. Besides, cutting away on a pallet with that 2000 lbs. machine looming over me gave me that uncomfortable feeling in my crotch.

I also thought I could slice the corners of the pallet off to match the angle of the legs and clear them, and I still think that would work, but, in the end, I didn’t really want to be chopping away at the pallet. I chose, instead, to put the assembled crane on 10” wood blocks to clear the 8” high pallet, so the crane legs would sit over the pallet, just like the preceding pic shows.  I still need to assemble the crane of the blocks, but I'm feeling much more comfortable about this.  I will report how this goes soon.

I hope this helps.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 18, 2020)

They delivered my mill yesterday. I just cut the front and the sides of the pallet so I could fit it in between the legs of my hoist. Lined up the lift with the eyebolt, lifted up the mill just enough so I could pull the pallet from underneath.


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## K Hood (Dec 18, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> They delivered my mill yesterday. I just cut the front and the sides of the pallet so I could fit it in between the legs of my hoist. Lined up the lift with the eyebolt, lifted up the mill just enough so I could pull the pallet from underneath.


Great to hear.  So, you lifted it with the eyebolt, without any straps?  It also appears you bought an ungraded eyebolt.  Did you use that?


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## K Hood (Dec 18, 2020)

K Hood said:


> Great to hear.  So, you lifted it with the eyebolt, without any straps?  It also appears you bought an ungraded eyebolt.  Did you use that?


Oh, and which weight position did you use on the boom?  I assume the 1.5 ton position?


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## kb58 (Dec 18, 2020)

K Hood said:


> ... So, as I read the OP’s comments, it was déjà vu all over again. I felt like I had somehow typed the words myself, since they so closely parallel my very recent concerns and experience. I just bought a PM 935 as well, along with a new 12x36 PM lathe... According to the PM website, the lathe was supposed to be 1000 lbs. and the mill 1400 lbs., but the bill of lading said 3600 lbs. total. How could that be? Well, PM finally admitted that the 3600 lbs. number was the actual weight, as the two packages were weighed when they left the PM facilities...


This hits very close to home and below was what I posted at the time. Before you read it though, I'm puzzled that your mill supposedly weighs 2000 lbs. The trucking company said that my 935 was 1676 lbs, so there's some sort of disconnect going on somewhere, unless they gained 400 lbs since I got mine two years ago... Anyway:


> So the mill arrived, with some heart-stopping drama.
> 
> Things started out well enough, with the truck arriving on time. The first thing to note is that for some reason, someone decided to sit the enormous 1,676-pound crate (with its integral pallet) on top of a weak and partly collapsed second pallet. That made it tough for the driver to get the pallet jack under it. Then there was that he parked the truck pointing uphill, so once on the pallet jack, the crate wanted very badly to roll toward the rear of the truck. I asked if he’d like to turn the truck around, but he said no problem. Okay…
> 
> ...


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## Pcmaker (Dec 18, 2020)

K Hood said:


> Oh, and which weight position did you use on the boom?  I assume the 1.5 ton position?




I used the 1 ton position. I lifted straight from the eyebolt with the extra chain I had laying around. I ended up using the eyebolt that came with the machine.


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## K Hood (Dec 18, 2020)

kb58 said:


> This hits very close to home and below was what I posted at the time. Before you read it though, I'm puzzled that your mill supposedly weighs 2000 lbs. The trucking company said that my 935 was 1676 lbs, so there's some sort of disconnect going on somewhere, unless they gained 400 lbs since I got mine two years ago... Anyway:


A hair raising story, for sure!  I'm glad I didn't read it before my machines arrived.  Honestly, who knows what they weigh, but it certainly is not the 1430# on the PM website.  I did have power feeds installed, but those would not be 350#.  Did yours have the VFD? I think there's 100# difference there.


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## Pcmaker (Dec 18, 2020)

The shipping company said my crate weighed 2100 lbs. So, I'm not exactly sure how much my mill weighs.


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## K Hood (Dec 18, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> The shipping company said my crate weighed 2100 lbs. So, I'm not exactly sure how much my mill weighs.


Sorry, I guess I should be more organized, but, when you lifted with the eyebolt, did the machine try to swing to the side, or did it lift straight up?


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## Pcmaker (Dec 18, 2020)

It wanted to swing away from the hoist and to the right, but I already know that, so I tied the base of the mill to the back of the hoist with a ratchet strap and did the same to the right side of the base


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## hman (Dec 18, 2020)

@Pcmaker - Very glad to see that you got the mill safely off the pallet!  Did you, or are you planning to add legs or feet under it?  And how did/will you move it to its final resting place?  Those expansion joints in your floor look like they'd really mess up the use of pipe rollers.


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## hman (Dec 18, 2020)

@K Hood - Welcome to the forum!  I sincerely send you my very best wishes for a successful lift and pallet removal.  Be safe!

PS - What model 935 did you get - the TV or TS.  And which motor?  I just looked through the manual, and it looks like a GREAT mill!


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## Tim9 (Dec 18, 2020)

After


K Hood said:


> Longtime lurker, first time poster. I was trained as a gunsmith and have about 40 years of experience doing gunsmithing-type machining operations, and even making scratch-built rifles, but I still do not consider myself a true machinist like many here.
> 
> So, as I read the OP’s comments, it was déjà vu all over again. I felt like I had somehow typed the words myself, since they so closely parallel my very recent concerns and experience. I just bought a PM 935 as well, along with a new 12x36 PM lathe. Two years away from retiring, I figured I better upgrade while I still feel comfortable spending that kind of money. Anyway, I took delivery just three weeks ago, and I feel the OP will be able to glean some valuable information from my experience. Here’s how it played out for me (so far).
> 
> ...


After reading this, it just confirms my feelings from the get go about shipping heavy items.

ARRANGE to pick up at the trucking depot. Don't pay for lift gate. Go with a LTL trucker and pick up at local dock.
They always have a forklift and can load on a trailer. You don't have a trailer or heavy truck. Get a flatbed wrecker to pick it up and drop it in your garage. They move 5000 pounds cars and trucks all day long. And, they will come up your driveway. Just do your homework and GO TO THE WRECKER office to talk with the owner. Do this in advance. These wrecker drivers can be very skilled. Just find the right one.


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## brino (Dec 18, 2020)

@K Hood,
Welcome to the group!

-brino


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## kb58 (Dec 18, 2020)

Tim9 said:


> After
> 
> After reading this, it just confirms my feelings from the get go about shipping heavy items.
> 
> ...


Or rent a heavy equipment trailer. They’re awesome because they lower to ground level. Of course, that still leaves getting it off the pallet...


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## tjb (Dec 18, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> It wanted to swing away from the hoist and to the right, but I already know that, so I tied the base of the mill to the back of the hoist with a ratchet strap and did the same to the right side of the base


Sounds uneventful - so the homework paid off.  Now let the fun begin.

Congratulations on a safe landing.

We're happy for you!!!

Regards


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## Pcmaker (Dec 18, 2020)

hman said:


> @Pcmaker - Very glad to see that you got the mill safely off the pallet!  Did you, or are you planning to add legs or feet under it?  And how did/will you move it to its final resting place?  Those expansion joints in your floor look like they'd really mess up the use of pipe rollers.



I already have  the mill in place. I used the hoist to move it inch by inch. The small gap under the mill is not big enough to get a johnson bar in. 

I'm not adding legs to the mill, it's already very tall as it is. I had trouble getting the drawbar in because of the ceiling.


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## Dabbler (Dec 19, 2020)

Another 'taking a mill off a pallet' vide is by Clough42:


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## K Hood (Dec 19, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> It wanted to swing away from the hoist and to the right, but I already know that, so I tied the base of the mill to the back of the hoist with a ratchet strap and did the same to the right side of the base


Perfect.  Many thanks.


hman said:


> @K Hood - Welcome to the forum!  I sincerely send you my very best wishes for a successful lift and pallet removal.  Be safe!
> 
> PS - What model 935 did you get - the TV or TS.  And which motor?  I just looked through the manual, and it looks like a GREAT mill!


I ended up going with the single phase 220V motor without the inverter, so the TS model.  I've had some bad luck with VFDs, and I still like the old school aspect of pulleys.  Having said that, even though I like keeping track of where I am with the dials, everyone said it is a must have, so  I also opted for the DRO,


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## Buffalo21 (Dec 19, 2020)

I asked a similar question on another site, about 10-15 yrs ago, one of the comments, they said burn it out from underneath the mill, after that comment, everything said totally useless, this thread has not fallen to that level.


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## hman (Dec 19, 2020)

hman said:


> I ended up going with the single phase 220V motor without the inverter, so the TS model.  I've had some bad luck with VFDs, and I still like the old school aspect of pulleys.  Having said that, even though I like keeping track of where I am with the dials, everyone said it is a must have, so  I also opted for the DRO,


I can endorse your VFD decision ... added DROs to various lathes and mills over the years, and always happy I did so.  If nothing else, it gets rid of the backlash issue!


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## hman (Dec 19, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> I asked a similar question on another site, about 10-15 yrs ago, one of the comments, they said burn it out from underneath the mill


Isn't that what an oxyacetylene torch is for??? ... or is it supposed to have other occasional uses?


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## ddickey (Dec 28, 2020)

Guys I wanted to let you know about these Cherry Pickers. I rented the Tip Tow 10 today and it is a beast. No problem lifting the lathe and super wide to easily slide over the outsides of a big pallet.




__





						Engine Lifts – ICF Industries
					





					www.icfinc.com


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## Dabbler (Dec 28, 2020)

I love usinmg lifts like ddickey suggests, except, they usually don't lift quite high enough for my needs... 

I've thought about modifying the one I bought, but then I just gave in and bought a genie lift, used.....


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## ddickey (Dec 29, 2020)

Probably still not high enough but this one was extra tall. You might've noticed in the chart this weighed over 500lbs.


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