# when do you use a live center instead of a dead center?



## Ken from ontario (Jul 2, 2017)

I've been asking myself this question for a while and don't exactly know at what point does one need to move from a dead center to a live center?
Is it because with a live center  you can put more pressure to the center of  the workpiece  and therefore cut more precisely? or does it have something to do with the size of the workpiece?
If you use a well lubed dead center and there's no sign of the tip overheating,  why would you use a live center than?
could you explain that for me.
Does the live center always go in the headstock?


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 2, 2017)

The live center goes only in the tailstock.
In My Opinion"
Live centers are good enough for anything I do on my lathe. Granted it's a small lathe, and I don't have many demanding jobs.
Dead centers, I'd use in a cylinder grinder. (anything round) There's little pressure (comparatively) on the center. 

Time was.... before the development of dependable live centers... that dead centers were all that there were.


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## chips&more (Jul 2, 2017)

Interesting question. The dead center was first to happen and then I guess someone came up with the live center idea because of some of the dead center pitfalls. Nowadays IMHO, if you can afford/justify a good live center then get it. Maybe also get a dead center just because.


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## kd4gij (Jul 2, 2017)

My dead center lives in a draw around here some place.  I think I may have stuck it in the tail stock once to make sure it fit just in case.


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## Ulma Doctor (Jul 2, 2017)

i was taught to work with dead centers, they will produce work with less runout than a live center-
although the tolerances on live centers now is near enough to make them very accurate and suitable for most work any of us will ever do.
i still use dead centers when turning between centers or when threading


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## mikey (Jul 2, 2017)

Ken from ontario said:


> I've been asking myself this question for a while and don't exactly know at what point does one need to move from a dead center to a live center?
> Is it because with a live center  you can put more pressure to the center of  the workpiece  and therefore cut more precisely? or does it have something to do with the size of the workpiece?
> If you use a well lubed dead center and there's no sign of the tip overheating,  why would you use a live center than?
> could you explain that for me.
> Does the live center always go in the headstock?



Nowadays, most of us use live centers for almost all work and yes, a live center goes into the tailstock. There was a discussion not long ago about the nomenclature of dead centers and supposedly the solid centers that go into the headstock are "live" centers and the ones that go in the tailstock are "dead" centers. While interesting, the reality is that most of us use tailstock centers with bearings inside them and we call them Live Centers. 

As mentioned, a live center is usually used most of the time because it does not require us to stop the lathe and lube the tip of this center. When using a dead center, you have to stop the lathe from time to time to re-lube the tip of the center and then readjust the tailstock pressure because the work piece will heat up and expand from friction between the dead center and work piece.

So, when is a dead center used? It is most often used when we want the ultimate in accuracy, either to turn a precision work piece "between centers" or when using a test bar to align a tailstock. Otherwise, most of us just use a live center. 

Not all live centers are created equal. I use a Royal live center and it is very precise, with no discernable play. Cheap live centers can have enough play to affect accuracy, especially when turning big, heavy work pieces so buy a decent one. 

Hope that helps.


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## pdentrem (Jul 2, 2017)

Rotating centers only go in the tailstock as stated earlier. Dead center can go in the spindle or the tail stock.

One advantage to using dead centers is you can make a custom one fairly easily. Once it is cut and ground in the spindle it is accurate while a rotating center is dependent on the quality of the bearings and the other components. I also only use dead centers in our Landis Cylindrical grinder they are the most accurate. We need to be inside of 0.0002" in roundness and when making match sets of rolls for rolling mills, dead centers are the only way to get this kind of accuracy.

At home, I have used both with varying success. My rotating center is only a mid grade, maybe 0.002" but I questioned that ever since I had it. Never checked as I never had a home job to be that good. Only $200 vs a lot more for a real nice one. YMMV
Pierre


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## 4GSR (Jul 2, 2017)

Spend the extra $$$ and get a nice name brand live center to use.  

I recently bought one of those cheaper $30 live centers to put with the 13" lathe I sold.  What a joke!  I could flex the center up and down enough you could see the movement.  Of course, put a load on it and I couldn't get it to move.  I don't get that with my other German made live centers I have.


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 2, 2017)

Thank you all for your comments and advice.
 I know good tools such as Royal live center costs more money  but , $350 for  for a Royal ? and that's the least expensive one.
http://www.traverscanada.com/search.aspx?keyword=live+centers


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## pdentrem (Jul 2, 2017)

Don't be afraid to check out Amazon, no Royal shown though.
Pierre


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## mikey (Jul 2, 2017)

Ken from ontario said:


> Thank you all for your comments and advice.
> I know good tools such as Royal live center costs more money  but , $350 for  for a Royal ? and that's the least expensive one.
> http://www.traverscanada.com/search.aspx?keyword=live+centers



I would not buy a Royal or any other live center at retail prices. Use what comes with your lathe and watch for a deal on ebay. Brands to look for are Royal, Skoda and Riten (there may be others). Rohm makes good ones, too. Typically, a new Skoda will go for about half what a Royal costs on ebay, like this one: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKODA-Preci...944974?hash=item1c85af568e:g:oTQAAOSwSypY-T5C

I would make an offer for $100.00 and see if he bites.

I have an interchangeable tip Royal. Its good to know that they are warranted for life and if you have a new tip, Royal will grind it to suit your specific live center body for free, for life.


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## Glenn Brooks (Jul 3, 2017)

pdentrem said:


> Rotating centers only go in the tailstock as stated earlier. Dead center can go in the spindle or the tail stock.
> 
> One advantage to using dead centers is you can make a custom one fairly easily. Once it is cut and ground in the spindle it is accurate while a rotating center is dependent on the quality of the bearings and the other components. I also only use dead centers in our Landis Cylindrical grinder they are the most accurate. We need to be inside of 0.0002" in roundness and when making match sets of rolls for rolling mills, dead centers are the only way to get this kind of accuracy.
> 
> Pierre



+1 on this!  Dead centers go in the headstock, because you can easily turn them down to be concentric with the center line of the lathe.  No need to worry about runout in the chuck.  Instant alignment with the tailstock! Also, turning between centers is a great way to work with long work pieces. Like axles with wheels pressed on.  Once I did this a few times, it became my go to method for turning long work in the lathe.

Glenn


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## grzdomagala (Jul 3, 2017)

There's another  center you may want in tailstock - "half dead center"  Very useful invention.


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## darkzero (Jul 3, 2017)

mikey said:


> Nowadays, most of us use live centers for almost all work and yes, a live center goes into the tailstock. There was a discussion not long ago about the nomenclature of dead centers and supposedly the solid centers that go into the headstock are "live" centers and the ones that go in the tailstock are "dead" centers. While interesting, the reality is that most of us use tailstock centers with bearings inside them and we call them Live Centers.
> 
> As mentioned, a live center is usually used most of the time because it does not require us to stop the lathe and lube the tip of this center. When using a dead center, you have to stop the lathe from time to time to re-lube the tip of the center and then readjust the tailstock pressure because the work piece will heat up and expand from friction between the dead center and work piece.
> 
> ...



Yeah quite the confusion when the old timers chime in about it. I was taught by an old timer who said dead centers are used in the tailstock & live centers are used in the headstock, meaning when a solid center is used in the headstock or whenever it rotates with the part, it's "live" & when a solid center is used in the tailstock (not rotating) it's "dead". I suppose that is how it was befor ball bearing centers were invented?

That's not how they are called today. Look at any vendor or manufacturer & a live center is a ball bearing center & a dead center is a solid center. That's how I'm used to it & that's how I call them too to avoid confusion despite what I was "taught". I suppose I should stop saying "live" & "dead" and should start saying "roating" or "ball bearing" and "solid" but I don't think I will. 



mikey said:


> I would not buy a Royal or any other live center at retail prices. Use what comes with your lathe and watch for a deal on ebay. Brands to look for are Royal, Skoda and Riten (there may be others). Rohm makes good ones, too. Typically, a new Skoda will go for about half what a Royal costs on ebay, like this one:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKODA-Preci...944974?hash=item1c85af568e:g:oTQAAOSwSypY-T5C
> 
> ...



I'm also a believer of not using cheap live centers. I can't afford a Royal or Riten & never was able score a nice one used. I've been using Skodas & I like them. They're the best bang for the buck for live centers IMO. 

If you look in the right places, one can get a Skoda for a very good price. Like that MT2 Skoda in the ebay link for $125, I used to have that same one. Earlier this year, I sold both my MT2 & MT3 Skodas & upgraded to their latest ones. I guess they decided to make a change to them cause so many are copying them. I got MT2 Skoda from MSC, brand new for $116 shipped, it was dropped shipped directly from Sowa.

I also have a couple of live centers from Z Live Center. I'm not sure where they're made but I just assume Asian import and I was very hesitant to buy one from them at first but I have their "CNC Precision Long Spindle" live centers & it's actually pretty nice. I've bought a few things from them & I like the company. Just last week I ordered something, they sent me the wrong item by accident, told me to keep the incorrect item & shipped me the correct item.


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## woodchucker (Jul 3, 2017)

I used to only use a dead center when turning tapers using the offset tailstock. I didn't want to do that with my live center.


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## 4GSR (Jul 3, 2017)

Here's a Rohm German made live center I saved in a dumpster dive 28 years ago.  It had the word "BAD" written on it with a yellow paint pen when I found it.  The center point has a few idiot marks on it, but amazing the runout is "zero".  Could use a cleaning, not as pretty as Will's, gets the job done!


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 3, 2017)

darkzero said:


> Yeah quite the confusion when the old timers chime in about it. I was taught by an old timer who said dead centers are used in the tailstock & live centers are used in the headstock, meaning when a solid center is used in the headstock or whenever it rotates with the part, it's "live" & when a solid center is used in the tailstock (not rotating) it's "dead".


Confusion, that's what I found when searching the net for" live center vs dead center", it seems a lot of old timers are of the opinion that  live center should go in the headstock! probably based on the same logic you mentioned above.needless to say the opposite makes more sense to a novice like me but it's good to know both sides of the argument.


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 3, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Here's a Rohm German made live center I saved in a dumpster dive 28 years ago.  It had the word "BAD" written on it with a yellow paint pen when I found it.  The center point has a few idiot marks on it, but amazing the runout is "zero".  Could use a cleaning, not as pretty as Will's, gets the job done!


What a find, after watching a few youtube videos , it looks like  refubishing/repairing  these older live centers is quite common.


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## 4ssss (Jul 3, 2017)

I'm one of those old timers and I was taught to use live centers in the tailstock  EXCEPT  when knurling or doing an operation  that  puts pressure against the center.


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## Bill Gruby (Jul 3, 2017)

The only time I use a "Dead Center" is when I need clearance. Then I use a "Half Center". All other applications take the "Live Center".


"Billy G"


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## benmychree (Jul 3, 2017)

Another note on solid centers;  The center that is used in the headstock has a vee slot turned in the shank on the taper that fits the spindle taper, this is to signify that it is soft at the point; this is so that it may be trued up by re-cutting if it runs out.  The tailstock center is hardened and has no such slot and must be ground to true it up, although carbide tools of a harder grade, such as Kennametal K-6 will cut most hard parts.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 3, 2017)

Ken from ontario said:


> I've been asking myself this question for a while and don't exactly know at what point does one need to move from a dead center to a live center?
> Is it because with a live center  you can put more pressure to the center of  the workpiece  and therefore cut more precisely? or does it have something to do with the size of the workpiece?
> If you use a well lubed dead center and there's no sign of the tip overheating,  why would you use a live center than?
> could you explain that for me.
> Does the live center always go in the headstock?


As noted, we recently had this same discussion.  I will repeat what I said there.  The nomenclature and the associated meanings of the terms "live" and "dead" centers have become so hopelessly convoluted over time that I will only say "solid" and "ball bearing" to describe types of centers --  at least in public discourse.   Call it anything you want if you are only talking to yourself...


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## Silverbullet (Jul 3, 2017)

If you Ck textbooks any center used in a head stock is live , in the tailstock it's called dead. Just to use the official teaching method. So a ball bearing center we call live really isn't unless you put it in the head stock. I always thought it was bassakwards. But I try to say it the right way.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 3, 2017)

Use a rotating center when running a spindle speed that is entirely too fast for a non rotating tool, the difference will become obvious with time (-:


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## benmychree (Jul 3, 2017)

I think that may well be the best approach, but to be a little factious, when we cylindrical grind, generally on dead centers, we have the option of running the headstock center either stationary or rotating; live or dead ???????????   Personally, I think the live center is of the anti friction bearing type, and dead centers are of the solid type, whether they rotate or not


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## pdentrem (Jul 3, 2017)

We also keep the center in the headstock still and only have the face plate driving the dog. Makes a better grind.
Pierre


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## benmychree (Jul 3, 2017)

pdentrem said:


> We also keep the center in the headstock still and only have the face plate driving the dog. Makes a better grind.
> Pierre


Yes, I have always done so, personally, it is the correct way to do the operation, but my point was that the same article could be describe as being both live and dead in the same spindle.  Personally I think that this whole discussion has been a bit on the silly side; as far as modern usage has it, I think both centers are dead if they are solid, but perhaps we just need to stop splitting hairs and just say "turning on centers".


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## pdentrem (Jul 3, 2017)

In doing a bit of research, dead, live, rotating etc etc has regional, country and cultural variances. I look at it as - if driven it is live, stationary - dead, and rotating means with some sort of bearing. This is how I explained it to the new guys even if they just came out of school/apprenticeship that way we are all on the same page. Any confusion can lead to errors and scrap parts or rework.
Pierre


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 4, 2017)

Thank you all for your opinions and inputs, I read all of your comments with a lot of interest but mainly to clarify the usage of  centers, which means , under what situations do I reach for a "solid" center or "ball bearing" center .
I got the answer to my question  (and the majority of you agreed )with post #5 and #6, although it was really interesting to read all the rest of your comments about the reasons why they are called  live or dead centers and where it originated from .I learned a lot from all your opinions .
Again thank you all .


Ulma Doctor said:


> *with dead centers, the will produce work with less runout than a live center- *
> .
> *i still use dead centers when turning between centers or when threading*





mikey said:


> *Nowadays, most of us use live centers for almost all work and yes, a live center goes into the tailstock.*
> 
> As mentioned*, a live center is usually used most of the time because it does not require us to stop the lathe and lube the tip of this center*.
> *
> So, when is a dead center used? It is most often used when we want the ultimate in accuracy, either to turn a precision work piece "between centers" or when using a test bar to align a tailstock. Otherwise, most of us just use a live center. *


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 6, 2017)

I ordered a half decent live center from Travers:


	

		
			
		

		
	
 The picture is a bit misleading, the marking on it say Skoda but the description says it's a Phase II brand, never the less it sounds like a better quality live center  than the $19.99 ones on ebay.
http://www.traverscanada.com/precision-heavy-duty-live-center/p/69-201-011/


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## 4GSR (Jul 6, 2017)

Ken from ontario said:


> I listened to mikey's advice and ordered a half decent live center from Travers:
> View attachment 237060
> 
> 
> ...


Let us know how it turns out. I'm looking for another live center with a 3 MT shank.


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## Bamban (Jul 6, 2017)

mikey said:


> I would not buy a Royal or any other live center at retail prices. Use what comes with your lathe and watch for a deal on ebay. Brands to look for are Royal, Skoda and Riten (there may be others). Rohm makes good ones, too. Typically, a new Skoda will go for about half what a Royal costs on ebay, like this one:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKODA-Preci...944974?hash=item1c85af568e:g:oTQAAOSwSypY-T5C
> 
> ...



I made an offer on this Skoda Mike linked, the seller accepted. Got it for $75, plus the shipping. Perfect for my favorite lathe, the Jet 1024.


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## darkzero (Jul 6, 2017)

Ken from ontario said:


> What a find, after watching a few youtube videos , it looks like  refubishing/repairing  these older live centers is quite common.



I've seen some too & it doesn't look hard except if you don't have the capability to regrind the nose. Some people just clean it up on the lathe though. 

But if you don't feel like doing it yourself or can't, Royal & Riten both have repair programs. They'll repair/recondition live centers for most any manufacturer if possible, doesn't have to be their own. Whether or not that's economical, I don't know, not sure what the rates are. Of course you wouldn't send in a cheap $40 import center.


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## bfd (Jul 7, 2017)

time for another definition. I was taught that if the part rotates on the center then its a live center if the part doesn't rotate on the center then its a dead center I like the bearing center verses the no bearing center bill If you get a cheaper center you probably wont notice much difference try it before you condemn it I have even used a homemade center that worked great bill


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 7, 2017)

bfd said:


> time for another definition. I was taught that if the part rotates on the center then its a live center if the part doesn't rotate on the center then its a dead center I like the bearing center verses the no bearing center bill *If you get a cheaper center you probably wont notice much difference* try it before you condemn it I have even used a homemade center that worked great bill


I'll soon find out, *the one I bought* was the least expensive live center that seemed  not a total waste of money.I would imagine a shop made live center with a good ball bearing could  perform just as good ,in fact I would like to try  building one  with my new lathe.


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## 4GSR (Jul 7, 2017)

Ken from ontario said:


> I'll soon find out, *the one I bought* was the least expensive live center that seemed  not a total waste of money.I would imagine a shop made live center with a good ball bearing could  perform just as good ,in fact I would like to try  building one  with my new lathe.


Growing up, that's all I had to work with was a homemade live center dad made.  It got us by until I bought a new Rohm live center around 1978.  Still have that center, too.  Oh, the homemade live center, well I turned it into a revolving center with a 3" 3-jaw chuck mounted to it to hold material long enough to cut a steady rest groove on it.  Been handy at times.


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## Bamban (Jul 7, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Growing up, that's all I had to work with was a homemade live center dad made.  It got us by until I bought a new Rohm live center around 1978.  Still have that center, too.  Oh, the homemade live center, well I turned it into a revolving center with a 3" 3-jaw chuck mounted to it to hold material long enough to cut a steady rest groove on it.  Been handy at times.




I like that revolving TS chuck. There were a couple of times I could use one.


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 7, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Growing up, that's all I had to work with was a homemade live center dad made.  It got us by until I bought a new Rohm live center around 1978.  Still have that center, too.  Oh, the homemade live center, well I turned it into a revolving center with a 3" 3-jaw chuck mounted to it to hold material long enough to cut a steady rest groove on it.  Been handy at times.


A revolving center with  a 3"chuck , what a great modification, I wonder if a smaller chuck like a drill press chuck would  work.


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## dlane (Jul 7, 2017)




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## Billh50 (Jul 7, 2017)

I bought one of those cheaper live centers for my mini-lathe. Every time I tried to use it kept getting chatter no matter how much pressure I put on the part. Once I even stalled the lathe trying to put more pressure on. Change to my dead center and I never get any chatter. So now I only use my dead center with lots of grease.


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## Bamban (Jul 7, 2017)

The MT2 Skoda live center arrived today, a nice surprise it got here so early. I will find out soon how it does compared to the ChiCom unit I have.


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## f350ca (Jul 7, 2017)

I have a 6 inch Bison live 3 jaw chuck. Handy for working with pipe.






Greg


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## Hotbluechips (Aug 1, 2017)

Dead centers are almost always used on cylindrical grinders. The one that is driven is called a live center, the one in tailstock is called dead center.
On a lathe, Dead centers are useful for putting in spindle bore taper for between center turning, In the tailstock  you use a Bearing Center or a lubricated dead center at relative slow speeds. And as with a grinder, the center that driven or rotates with spindle is called a live center. Regardless of what tool sellers call them, unless it is driven with machine power, it is NOT a live center. Should add that carbide tipped dead centers are a must for super precision turning or grinding.


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## benmychree (Aug 1, 2017)

Hotbluechips said:


> Dead centers are almost always used on cylindrical grinders. The one that is driven is called a live center, the one in tailstock is called dead center.
> On a lathe, Dead centers are useful for putting in spindle bore taper for between center turning, In the tailstock  you use a Bearing Center or a lubricated dead center at relative slow speeds. And as with a grinder, the center that driven or rotates with spindle is called a live center. Regardless of what tool sellers call them, unless it is driven with machine power, it is NOT a live center. Should add that carbide tipped dead centers are a must for super precision turning or grinding.


On every cylindrical grinder that I ever ran or owned, the headstock center did not revolve, only the driving plate revolved,  The center could be allowed to revolve by disengaging the lock; this was done to allow the driving plate to rotate the center(s) when regrinding them when they are worn; if carbide tipped centers are used it becomes difficult to regrind them, a diamond grinding wheel being necessary to accomplish the task.  When regrinding centers, the tailstock center is ground first in the headstock, removed and replaced in the tailstock, then the headstock center is ground so that it will be concentric in the headstock.


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## pdentrem (Aug 2, 2017)

Our ancient Landis grinder, we have the option of the driving plate or the driving plate and the spindle together. There is a sliding pin that moves to lock and unlock the spindle from the driving plate.
Pierre


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## benmychree (Aug 2, 2017)

On my Norton 18 X 48 Universal, it worked the same way, and a chuck could be mounted on the spindle nose and driven by the driving plate; This was a late 1950s machine, I think.


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