# What would you do ?



## mmcmdl (Jul 21, 2019)

I most likely just opened up a can of worms in at work . Mechanics/machinists are not to do electrical work basically . We constantly blow fuses on our die heaters and until tonight the line goes down . Being no electricians work the weekend , the line would have been down until Monday morning 5am . This has gone on for years and yet they complain about downtime . I've told them in the past that changing a fuse is well within my envelope of skills and abilities , and in my comfort zone . So tonight , for the first time in years , a person other than an electrician put a fuse in , and the line will stay up for the weekend . 

I may here some repurcussions but it won't be until next Thursday morning . ( They'll probably be over it by then )


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## ddillman (Jul 21, 2019)

I'm with you. If you can, do it. Why are they using fuses instead or circuit breakers?


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## mmcmdl (Jul 21, 2019)

Don't know . I'm not an electrician , but these are older lines . We are running poly thru extruders thru high pressure dies with water jets and the spray sometimes kicks the opposing heater cords out . Been going on since I've been here . I had a discussion yesterday morning with the big cheese that I'm frustrated waiting for an electrician to change a fuse . 4 hrs call in pay for them while I wait and the line is down . Our company does not have their own electricians but rather have outside contractors handle it . I have no problem with that , but I have a problem being the one trying to keep these lines running and not having the go ahead to do something I feel is within my call of duty . If something is brought up about it , I'm simply going to state to them that is was a " mechanical fuse " . How can they argue that ?


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## MontanaLon (Jul 21, 2019)

I've learned in the past not to mess with the union electricians or play in their lane of traffic. It is complicated by contracts and the stipulations in them, at minimum some union member will get paid for the "work" you did that is contractually specified. At worst, they will file a complaint and you will get your ass handed to you. 

We had an HVAC unit stop working one summer. So we called the HVAC guy to come take a look. He found the unit had no electrical to it. He traced it back to the breaker box and discovered the breaker itself had fried. What he was supposed to do was call in the electrician to replace the breaker and wait until he got there. What he did was replace the breaker so he could check the unit under power. With power back to it there were no deficits. He was happy, we were happy our customers were happy.

Only people unhappy were the electricians and the union. Talk about a shat show. I kid you not the way it was finally resolved to the electrician's satisfaction was he re-replaced the circuit breaker and got paid 4 hours for the "emergency call" which was the minimum charge.


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## projectnut (Jul 21, 2019)

Are you in a union shop that makes the distinction that no one but an electrician can change a fuse?  The question is why are you 'regularly" blowing fuses in the first place.  If regularly means blowing one every few months I can understand it, but if it means blowing them on a daily or weekly bass I would think it's time for management to consider some equipment upgrades.  In the long run it's got to be cheaper to spend the money to avoid future episodes than it is to continually call in outside help to "repair" the problem.

The company I worked for had dozens of production lines doing plastic extrusions, die forming, and packaging.  Almost every line had some type of heaters in extrusion, forming, and sealing machines.  Being a food manufacturer the equipment was washed down nightly with caustics and high pressure hot water.  It was a rarity that a heater would burn out or a machine would blow a circuit breaker.  When they did the line and department supervisors were required to make an assessment of the situation, and a plan as how to avoid it in the future. 

If there were more than a few isolated incidences in a calendar year Engineering would get involved and make the design changes necessary to avoid further problems.  The Engineer assigned the task would make sure they did a good job in that any future problems would be their responsibility as long as they were employed by the company.  That policy seemed to be understood and accepted by all.  Most Engineers averaged around 40 years with the company before they retired.  At one time I was the least senior member of the Engineering staff, and I had over 20 years with the company.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 21, 2019)

We , nor the electricians are union , and I sure as heck don't go messing with anything 480 in here . This is just a re-occurring breakdown work order that happens every single night when I'm here alone . The company just wants everything to be safe .

It's funny though , that we the mechanics can change out the heaters , thermocouplers , etc and can't change a fuse .


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## darkzero (Jul 21, 2019)

When you tell them what you did, just tell them that you fixed the issue permanently. When they ask you how, tell them you replaced the blown fuse with a piece of solid copper bar that you machined to exact tolerances. Won't ever blow that fuse again. Something else may blow up, well not your problem.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 21, 2019)

That's a good one . I need some time off !


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## 34_40 (Jul 21, 2019)

Now they (employer) will have to make sure you're trained in arc flash protection and you now probably fall under NFP-70E, and they'll have to get you "certified" based on experience to prove you're "qualified" .    
I know this one - I have to go through the process every other year.  And it doesn't qualify me to work on "live" circuits.


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## fixit (Jul 21, 2019)

darkzero said:


> When you tell them what you did, just tell them that you fixed the issue permanently. When they ask you how, tell them you replaced the blown fuse with a piece of solid copper bar that you machined to exact tolerances. Won't ever blow that fuse again. Something else may blow up, well not your problem.


That's really not funny. I supervised maintenance in a large facility for 25 years. I found the permanent fuses in too many locations, some lazy electricians found it easier to take the chance to burn down the facility than fix the problem.


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## matthewsx (Jul 21, 2019)

Since you're not in a union shop it's up to your boss to make sure you are qualified and have the proper equipment for fuse replacement. They might want someone with an electrical engineering background to figure out why fuses are blowing so often, perhaps some other component is out of spec, or they simply guessed at the value for the fuse that keeps blowing. It's also possible (but less likely) that some electrician in the past decided this is a good opportunity for extra work and put in a fuse that was undersized knowing that it would blow on a fairly regular basis and they would get overtime for a very simple job.

Now for my union electrician story. I work at conferences setting up computer network infrastructure, obviously some of the most strict union houses are city run convention centers so there are times when all I can do is point and verify the work has been done correctly. I was at one hall in a city that's famous for it's hotdogs and I literally saw three union electrician carrying a 25' cat5 cable.  Hey, it's your gig....

Cheers,

John


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## Nogoingback (Jul 21, 2019)

It's not just electricians of course.  My favorite were the 2 guys that jackhammered and dug out 2 one foot square post holes in the
course of a day's work.  They worked for a university.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 21, 2019)

Write them an invoice for a four hour callout fee for an electrician and tell them to pst the cheque to you.


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## RWanke (Jul 21, 2019)

Where I use to work was a union facility. We had mechanics and millwrights among the many other trades. Lots of conveyor systems in this facility. The contract stated any conveyor or its components higher than 5' off the floor was the responsibility of the millwrights. If it was below 5' it was the mechanics. I remember one night we had a line down for 3 hours (5 people to run the line) waiting on a millwright to come over to change a gearbox and we had 3 mechanics sitting in the shop drinking coffee and playing cards. It made me understand why unions are sometimes looked down on.


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## markba633csi (Jul 21, 2019)

Can you imagine if surgery was like that-  "sorry, can't close him up till the closer gets here and he's stuck in traffic" 
"anybody got a deck of cards?"
LOL


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## Bi11Hudson (Jul 21, 2019)

Retired now, I was an electronics repairman in a union shop for years. (I wasn't union, a right to work state) One of the things I would see in those circumstances is that if one person was OK'd to do electrical work, then others must also be OK'd. The problem would be that while I was qualified and quite particular about my work, others were not so. It  would show up as burned supply feeders or damaged equipment. That is the main reason crafts are seperated. Those 60 amp bolts... ...

I won't go into the fallacies of the work assignments of the place, it was an insane asylum on a good day. And usually went downhill from there. A case in point being that a pair of "_electricians_" had a motor disconnected, with the "L" and "T" leads exposed. The motor was the size of an oil drum but the "electricians" thought it was connected to a NEMA Sz 0 starter in a 480 volt switchboard.  *It wasn't*. It was a 4160 volt pump motor that was cycled off when they disconnected it.  I was asked to assist (as EE) and spotted the fault in short order. Once the main 4160 starter was disconnected, the pumps taken out of sequence and a solid sandblasting handed to the electricians, the high voltage people were called in. And _then_ the production manager was notified.

It is to prevent this sort of screw up that the crafts are seperated. You might be qualified (unofficially) but the next guy may well have a hidden stock of those 60 Amp bolts. Coming behind that person could be expensive, to say the least. If he were even still alive.* Make sure* you are never seen making such a repair, someone else may get fallacious ideas. I won't say "_don't do it_", only that you are never observed doing so.

_Bill Hudson_​_*.*_


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## CluelessNewB (Jul 21, 2019)

If the same fuse keeps blowing there is some other problem that needs to be fixed.


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## Cooter Brown (Jul 21, 2019)

I get service calls to spray WD-40 on squeaky hinges all the time..... Most people just can't do anything for themselves....


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## vocatexas (Jul 21, 2019)

One of my friends worked nearly fifteen years in an open pit mine. Last two or three as a shift supervisor. One night a pump went down. He called the maintenance guy on duty and told him to fix the pump. The maintenance guy basically told him to take a flying leap. If the pump wasn't fixed soon the entire plant would grind to a halt, so my friend, who had previously worked on these pumps, jumped in and did the job himself. The maintenance guy who refused to do his job sneaked up and took pics with his cell phone and gave them to the plant manager the next day. Though my friend prevented the entire plant from going down due to a jerk refusing to do his job, my friend got fired. Guess who got his supervisor's position?

Good luck with this situation.


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## RWanke (Jul 21, 2019)

Our plant on a contract renegotiation went from probably 12 separate crafts down to 3. Mechanics, electricians, and instrument techs. They gave all the craft guys cross training so mechanics where given some machinist, pipe fitting, sheet metal, etc training, etc etc across the other crafts. The people on the line where given the task of doing parts of the line change over procedures. Never will forget Edith, a lady who while wielding her company supplied wrenches would repeat to herself, "lefty loose righty tight", over and over.

Before the plant closed I worked with an "old timer" who was a lifelong staunch family union man. Towards the end he told me one day that although by him saying this his dad was probably rolling in his grave, he thought that the only thing our union was good for any more was to protect those that didn't deserve a job.  Pretty sad but I think they did it to themselves.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Jul 21, 2019)

Depends....were all of the electrician asked to work the overtime and just refused to take the work or are they not allowed to be there during that time?  
If they were ask but refused the work at a fair wage then i dont see a problem however if they were not offered the overtime.... then I say Ask yourself how you would feel about the matter if you were not allowed to preform the "Available work" that fell under your job description because the company didn't feel it worth the expense to have you around during those "off hours" because they know some other employee will handle your work for free saving them ink on the ledger which earns them (the decision makers)  BIGGER bonuses!


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## azshadeguy (Jul 21, 2019)

One time we were putting up some covered parking for a mine company. We knew the were safety oriented so we bought brand new extension cords to do the job.
A couple of months later another crew went to do something a the same site.
They also brought brand new cords. The safety guy would not let them use the new cords.
It seems that a electrician had to check the polarity of all cords before they could be used.
They did let the other crew borrow some cords to get the job done


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## 34_40 (Jul 21, 2019)

quote from post 3, " Our company does not have their own electricians but rather have outside contractors handle it . I have no problem with that , but I have a problem being the one trying to keep these lines running and not having the go ahead to do something I feel is within my call of duty "

It's a contractor who wouldn't come.. Next time call a contractor who wants to work I'd say!.!


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## matthewsx (Jul 21, 2019)

azshadeguy said:


> One time we were putting up some covered parking for a mine company. We knew the were safety oriented so we bought brand new extension cords to do the job.
> A couple of months later another crew went to do something a the same site.
> They also brought brand new cords. The safety guy would not let them use the new cords.
> It seems that a electrician had to check the polarity of all cords before they could be used.
> They did let the other crew borrow some cords to get the job done



Ask the Ausies about extension cords....


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## Tim9 (Jul 21, 2019)

A little off topic but somewhere I think I read something about slow blow fuses sometimes do have there place with older big electric motors.  They are designed to not immediately trip when starting a motor because motors draw more amperage on startup while a circuit breaker will usually trip.  Of coarse I could be wrong and maybe they make special breakers for motors...like slow blow fuses.


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## PHPaul (Jul 22, 2019)

darkzero said:


> When you tell them what you did, just tell them that you fixed the issue permanently. When they ask you how, tell them you replaced the blown fuse with a piece of solid copper bar that you machined to exact tolerances. Won't ever blow that fuse again. Something else may blow up, well not your problem.



Ah yes...the ol' 1/4-20 no-blow...

I was an electronics tech in the Navy for 22 years.  More than once I've been severely tempted to try that solution.  There was this R-390 HF Receiver that kept blowing the power supply fuse for no identifiable reason...


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## macardoso (Jul 22, 2019)

Tim9 said:


> A little off topic but somewhere I think I read something about slow blow fuses sometimes do have there place with older big electric motors. They are designed to not immediately trip when starting a motor because motors draw more amperage on startup while a circuit breaker will usually trip. Of coarse I could be wrong and maybe they make special breakers for motors...like slow blow fuses.



Tim9, you're correct about that. NFPA (in the US) and IEC (European) have standards on sizing fusing for motor starter protection. Depending on the class of motor you are running, they can draw significantly higher loads (think 600%) over their motor nameplate amps during startup. Motor fusing is sized larger than the running amps (obviously) and slow blow fuses are used to allow the motor to get up to speed without blowing fuses. Resistive loads (think heaters) should not experience this issue, perhaps with the exception of heat trace cable. Circuit breakers do not come in "slow blow" types, however they do have different *trip curves. *You can select the correct curve for your application based on how quickly the breaker should respond to overload conditions. Normal circuit breakers aren't usually used for motor starting loads, and rather a thermo-magnetic motor starter would be selected. The thermo part of the name indicates the device has a bi-metallic strip which will disconnect the circuit if the load is high for a sustained period of time, and the magnetic part tells you that the device has an electromagnetic solenoid which instantaneously disconnects the circuit when very high overload currents are drawn.









						140M Motor Circuit Protectors  | Allen-Bradley
					

Rockwell Automation announces that as of March 2022, our Bulletin 140M Motor Circuit Protectors will be discontinued and no longer available for sale. We recommend you migrate to our Bulletin 140MT Motor Circuit Protectors.




					ab.rockwellautomation.com
				












						IEC Open Starters  | Allen-Bradley
					

Our IEC open starters include direct-on-line, reversing, and variable speed operating modes and are available up to 97 A.




					ab.rockwellautomation.com


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 22, 2019)

macardoso said:


> Tim9, you're correct about that. NFPA (in the US) and IEC (European) have standards on sizing fusing for motor starter protection. Depending on the class of motor you are running, they can draw significantly higher loads (think 600%) over their motor nameplate amps during startup. Motor fusing is sized larger than the running amps (obviously) and slow blow fuses are used to allow the motor to get up to speed without blowing fuses. Resistive loads (think heaters) should not experience this issue, perhaps with the exception of heat trace cable. Circuit breakers do not come in "slow blow" types, however they do have different *trip curves. *You can select the correct curve for your application based on how quickly the breaker should respond to overload conditions. Normal circuit breakers aren't usually used for motor starting loads, and rather a thermo-magnetic motor starter would be selected. The thermo part of the name indicates the device has a bi-metallic strip which will disconnect the circuit if the load is high for a sustained period of time, and the magnetic part tells you that the device has an electromagnetic solenoid which instantaneously disconnects the circuit when very high overload currents are drawn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Most motors I've come across except very small ones, have separate starting fuses and running fuses, connected by relays in control box. The change over is usually triggered by a timer, usually set at only a few seconds, but I have seen them set as long as 10 minutes. These larger motor starters can also be wired up for Star/Delta so that the motor starts in star, and changes over to delta for running.


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## vtcnc (Jul 22, 2019)

Hi everybody,

I've received some feedback from another long time donating member that some of the posts here violate rules around no politics on the forum as it relates to the Pro-Union/Anti-Union content and opinion.

After re-reading this thread twice, my conclusion is that some of the posts on this thread _nearly_ cross the politics line. While we have this policy clearly spelled out in the rules, it isn't entirely clear to me _just how_ this violates the policy:

*DO NOT DISCUSS POLITICS:
12. You agree not to discuss politics - EVER. We are a machining site- let's keep it there.* 

Complicating matters, one contributor on the thread is a staff member so I will ask the opinions of the other admin/mods what they think about the content.

In the meantime, what would be really helpful is if participants can stay on topic - which was about skilled tradespeople bumping up against management policies and the situations we often find ourselves (from all sides) in as a result. For the most part this thread's contributors have successfully managed the discussion. I'm suggesting that if there is room for talk about unions here - and there isn't a rule saying there shouldn't be - then may I suggest that the contributions shift to how unions may help resolve or exacerbate (or something in between) the relevant topics brought up by the OP - without making it political or confrontational. Once we start down the road of picking a union camp then all heck breaks loose.

Like I said before, I'm not 100% sure about the violation here. I've read it twice, will read it again and based on the feedback I get with other staff members, we may determine that a policy has been violated and come back to delete some of the posts in questions. Then again, we may not and I will explain to those who have complained why the policy wasn't violated.

Also, I would ask that any moderators do not take any action at this point until there has been a decision made. The thread is staying open for now...thanks for your help in keeping it that way!

Thanks,
vtcnc


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## Boswell (Jul 22, 2019)

vtcnc said:


> I've received some feedback from another long time donating member that some of the posts here violate rules around no politics on the forum as it relates to the Pro-Union/Anti-Union content and opinion.


I really appreciate the open and transparent process.  Cudo's to site administration regardless of what the final decision is.


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## vtcnc (Jul 23, 2019)

OK, here is the final "verdict" on this matter.

*1) Upon review of the thread, while we acknowledge there are many strong, negative opinions about unions in this thread, the staff didn't see anything that was blatantly political and clearly violated our rules.

2) I deleted and edited a couple of posts that were essentially along the lines of, "unions are ruining the country" or, "this is why the country can't compete anymore". The reason I deleted/edited these posts/comments is that once we start talking about unions and nations it is skirting the political line in the form of union bashing.

3) I've notified the person who initially reported the posts and informed him of what actions we would take.

4) I will be sending a private message to the those that had their posts/comments deleted/edited in order to further explain why their posts were subject to these actions.

5) The staff is reviewing Rule 12 which only speaks of "no politics." We may include a couple of other topics in this rule so as to make clear what this site is all about.*

More on this last point with some personal commentary if you will indulge me for a moment:

I appreciate the comments about the transparent process we are trying to utilize here. It may sound strange, but this forum is wonderful and am very grateful that Nelson stuck with it and persevered through some trying times in building this place. My goal here is to work closely with the staff and continue to evolve this friendly forum for hobby machinists so they have a safe harbor when they need it - transparency seems to work well here. 

When I received the report about the union-bashing in this thread I knew that we had a problem because we just don't receive a ton of reports about posts and comments here. 29,000 members around the world, +400 active members posting content daily and we receive _maybe _one report per week. The good news: this truly is a friendly place. 

It didn't immediately occur to me that some opinions about unions (some strong, some light, some anecdotal) could be seen as political but apparently they can be. I'm from Vermont - we just don't have the union presence one might experience in Chicago, Baltimore or New York. In fact, it is non-existent here so that explains my naivete of the situation. But it seems like the topic of unions can find itself in the same class as religion, politics and sex. In my house, we try hard to keep those topics away from the dinner table and enjoy each others company without driving it into the ditch. I guess I'll have to add unions to the list.

Maybe I'm overdoing it here but this commentary is aimed at you, the H-M Member, to remember the one thing we all have in common is cutting chips. If we were sitting around the dinner table right now, I'm sure we would all agree that would be welcome conversation.


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