# New mill, anchor to floor or just sit it down ??



## Steve R (Sep 16, 2020)

I'm getting ready to purchase a mill PM1054TS & VFD. I was reading the book on the mill and they "suggest" when possible to bolt it to the floor. I have 6" concrete floor but I put my radiant  heat lines on the rebar up in the concrete and not on the insulation. I'm not very fond of drilling a hole. I could locate lines by turning on the heat and using a thermo imaging scope, but still not wanting to drill holes. The 1054 weighs in about 2900 lbs. Those of you who have similar size mills, what have you done. bolted it down, or just sat on floor (leveling pads)??


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## RandyWilson (Sep 16, 2020)

My Cincinnati is sitting on the leveling feet that came on the machine.  The machine hasn't gone for a stroll as yet. I think with a solid floor you'll be fine without nailing it down.


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## Papa Charlie (Sep 16, 2020)

If you are concerned about hitting the in floor heating system. I would get some leveling feet with vibration dampening. Anchoring is the best, but a pain. With the vibration dampening feet, you will reduce the vibration that will end up in the finish of your parts.


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## ttabbal (Sep 16, 2020)

My Bridgeport came with leveling feet. I just used those to adjust the wobble out. It doesn't want to wander around the shop.


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## MrWhoopee (Sep 16, 2020)

Never anchored a mill in the shop I worked in nor the one I owned. There is no need, and as sure as you do you will find a need to move it. I've shifted mine around to allow sticking a long shaft out the door.  It doesn't even need to be accurately leveled, just sitting solidly on the floor so it won't rock.


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## Steve R (Sep 16, 2020)

Thanks, that was what i was hoping for in the responses.


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## Flyinfool (Sep 16, 2020)

I used swivel Leveling feet as my floor is pretty rough, I also got the ones with the rubber on the bottom to absorb vibration and help keep the mill from walking down hill (floor is not level either). So far in 25 years the machine has not moved at all in either level or location. I have the feet adjusted so the bottom of the mill is about 2 inches high. makes it a lot easier to clean up and raises it to a more comfortable working height.


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## hwelecrepair (Sep 17, 2020)

As a service tech for these types of machines, I have never seen one bolted to the floor.  Most guys just set them on the floor or use leveling feet.

Mine in the garage is on leveling feet, but it is no where near a 1054.

Jon


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## Lo-Fi (Sep 17, 2020)

My Bridgeport is just sat on a level concrete floor in a garage. Never moves a whisker. Really don't see a need to bolt it, gravity is pretty effective at doing that all in its own.


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## Illinoyance (Sep 18, 2020)

My BP clone sits on the floor.  I needed a wedge under one corner to keep it from rocking.


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## akjeff (Sep 18, 2020)

I just finished assembling these leveling bars, that I made for a Lagun FTV-1 that's on it's way. I too pondered the free standing vs anchor dilemma, as I live in pretty active seismic country. But, after talking to several local pros, and having been in a few local shops. None of them anchor their mills, and no tip overs that I'm aware of. So, it'll be free standing, on vibration pads for me. I bought the feet from H&W, and then made the bars from 1" x 2" solid stock.


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## Gaffer (Sep 18, 2020)

akjeff said:


> I just finished assembling these leveling bars, that I made for a Lagun FTV-1 that's on it's way. I too pondered the free standing vs anchor dilemma, as I live in pretty active seismic country. But, after talking to several local pros, and having been in a few local shops. None of them anchor their mills, and no tip overs that I'm aware of. So, it'll be free standing, on vibration pads for me. I bought the feet from H&W, and then made the bars from 1" x 2" solid stock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did the same thing on my BP clone. They work great.


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## JRaut (Sep 19, 2020)

I made leveling feet for my Bridgeport with 4 big bolts and 4 blocks of oak.

Not bolted down and no issues.

I check it for level from time to time and it's always bang-on.


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## Papa Charlie (Sep 19, 2020)

akjeff said:


> I just finished assembling these leveling bars, that I made for a Lagun FTV-1 that's on it's way. I too pondered the free standing vs anchor dilemma, as I live in pretty active seismic country. But, after talking to several local pros, and having been in a few local shops. None of them anchor their mills, and no tip overs that I'm aware of. So, it'll be free standing, on vibration pads for me. I bought the feet from H&W, and then made the bars from 1" x 2" solid stock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where did you purchase those leveling feet? Don't know what H&W is.
Thanks


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## akjeff (Sep 19, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> Where did you purchase those leveling feet? Don't know what H&W is.
> Thanks



Oops, sorry. Should have pasted a link. It's H&W Machine Rebuilders









						Leveling Feet - Feet Only | SR602B
					

These feet are not suitable to put straight onto your machine, they are to put on a bar. The post is not long enough to thread through the base.




					www.machinerypartsdepot.com


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## Gaffer (Sep 19, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> Where did you purchase those leveling feet? Don't know what H&W is.
> Thanks


Like akjeff said, buy some 1X2" bar. Drill and thread it and bolt it to the underside of the base through the factory mounting holes. I bought my hardware from McMaster-Carr.  EDIT - I purchased the feet from Barry at H&W Machine Repair. He is great and helped me with a near-impossible part for a repair at a very reasonable price. The nuts and bolts came from M-C.


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## Twirpunky (Sep 19, 2020)

I saw an article written one time in a book about machine placement.  Guy L---  something was the author. He would level the machine with shims about an inch off the floor and mix up some grout and pack it under and around the base.   Paint it the same as the mill.  Nothing rolling under the mill and if you ever want to move it, just take a hammer and brake  up grout.  It comes right off the concrete floor.

D


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## Papa Charlie (Sep 19, 2020)

That isn't a bad idea. My lathe has eight mounting holes, four on each pedestal. I could build a stand for each of the pedestals and use only two per for a total of four instead of eight.

Thanks, I like it!


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## hman (Sep 20, 2020)

Geez, youse guys!  Wuz I copying you or wuz you copying me?  Here's the feet (McMaster_Carr, ⅝" stems) and steel bars I just installed on my new mill today!  (With help from a neighbor with a backhoe.)  One of the bars is 1x3½", the other 1x4" - both straight out of the rem bins at Industrial Metal Supply.  As wide as they are, I was able to "cheat" a bit, and place the feet up to 2" further forward and back from the mounting holes.  The long stems allow me to raise the mill enough to get a pallet jack underneath.


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## Gaffer (Sep 20, 2020)

hman said:


> Geez, youse guys!  Wuz I copying you or wuz you copying me?  Here's the feet (McMaster_Carr, ⅝" stems) and steel bars I just installed on my new mill today!  (With help from a neighbor with a backhoe.)  One of the bars is 1x3½", the other 1x4" - both straight out of the rem bins at Industrial Metal Supply.  As wide as they are, I was able to "cheat" a bit, and place the feet up to 2" further forward and back from the mounting holes.  The long stems allow me to raise the mill enough to get a pallet jack underneath.
> View attachment 337669


I love the rem bins at IMS - I shop their Riverside location.


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## akjeff (Sep 20, 2020)

hman said:


> Geez, youse guys!  Wuz I copying you or wuz you copying me?  Here's the feet (McMaster_Carr, ⅝" stems) and steel bars I just installed on my new mill today!  (With help from a neighbor with a backhoe.)  One of the bars is 1x3½", the other 1x4" - both straight out of the rem bins at Industrial Metal Supply.  As wide as they are, I was able to "cheat" a bit, and place the feet up to 2" further forward and back from the mounting holes.  The long stems allow me to raise the mill enough to get a pallet jack underneath.
> View attachment 337669


What mill is that?


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## hman (Sep 20, 2020)

It's a PM 835S - slightly smaller version of the classic knee mill.  I got it about a week or so ago, been busy cleaning it, doing some minor mods, and planning how to add a 3 phase motor and VFD.  Durn thing is too durn tall for me, so among other things, I'll be adding a platform to the front.


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## Iceberg86300 (Sep 21, 2020)

I've always used Haas level-pads & jack screws but I also used to have unlimited access to them.

The newer ones are available in both aluminum & cast iron for $35 a pop if their website is accurate. They supposedly have some kind of "cold-flow anchoring" material on the bottom that is supposed to approximate, well, anchoring. Looking at the patent just now it says a "material such as nylon."

The way it was explained to me is that anchoring isn't about macro level movement, it's about making the machine "appear" larger than it is to dampen vibrations. But there was an incident involving a tool room lathe, some unsupported bar stock, and a constant surface speed setting that defaulted to "ON" with every power cycle that showed macro movement can absolutely be an issue. Hopped itself ~3 feet out of position & gave the operator a freaking heart attack.

Shouldn't ever run into that problem with a mill though. LOL. I had some reservations when folks said to use rubber for vibration dampening but looking at the photos it's pretty thin & I guess it's been done for quite a long time w/o issue. I would consider adding a tiny amount of texture to the bottom if those leveling feet are smooth. Logic there is the same as the "cold flow anchoring;" which is textured slab + textured feet = better deformation of the pad into the concrete to provide a stronger interface between the two in effort to provide an approximation of anchoring w/o any of the work or potentially massive headaches, especially in your case. 

Just some stuff to think about!

Regards, 

Steve

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## akjeff (Sep 21, 2020)

Iceberg86300 said:


> I've always used Haas level-pads & jack screws but I also used to have unlimited access to them.
> 
> The newer ones are available in both aluminum & cast iron for $35 a pop if their website is accurate. They supposedly have some kind of "cold-flow anchoring" material on the bottom that is supposed to approximate, well, anchoring. Looking at the patent just now it says a "material such as nylon."
> 
> ...


Good food for thought, thanks for that info! These feet are cupped on the underside, and I suspect they will upset to a certain degree, to conform to surface irregularities. Plus, I figured that Barry, and the gang at H&W likely have hundreds, if not thousands of these out in circulation and if there were any big issues, they'd know it by now.


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## Dabbler (Sep 22, 2020)

I have 3 full sized mills (--for the moment, don't ask...)  Been milling for 30 years, never bolted down any of them  I don't use rubber vibration dampeners, as I settle my mill to as close to level that I can measure on my precision level...  I've always been leery that they'd compress and I'd need to re-level.  I'm also lazy...


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## pontiac428 (Sep 22, 2020)

It must be the thing to do when everyone is doing it... My contribution, cost $65 for materials and PolyMounts (McMaster).
These are for my Lagun FTV-3. If I could do it again I would have used bigger CRS because I think the 1"x2" is flexing under my unusually heavy mill (4400 lbs).  These are 3/4" studs on the pleasantly affordable PolyMounts.


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## finsruskw (Sep 22, 2020)

My Jet JTM-2 has sat still now for a year with out any issues.
It's  sitting on the pads it had been sitting on for 25 years at the PO's place.


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## akjeff (Sep 22, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> It must be the thing to do when everyone is doing it... My contribution, cost $65 for materials and PolyMounts (McMaster).
> These are for my Lagun FTV-3. If I could do it again I would have used bigger CRS because I think the 1"x2" is flexing under my unusually heavy mill (4400 lbs).  These are 3/4" studs on the pleasantly affordable PolyMounts.


Those FTV 3's and 4's are some serious iron!


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## finsruskw (Sep 23, 2020)

Install the mounts directly under the holes in the base of the mill where the bolts would go if you bolted directly to the floor.
No need for the extra cross piece, just asking for issues there I would think.


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## hman (Sep 23, 2020)

I'd have done that with my mill, if it weren't for the need to get a pallet jack under it (1) to move it from the driveway into the shop, and (2) to allow future movement with a pallet jack.  There wouldn't have been room for thepallet jack between the feet if they were in the factory holes (not to mention that I'd have had to do some serious adaptation to get the ⅝-11 stems into the ~15/16" diameter holes in the mill base).  With the feet set well outboard, I can easily get the pallet jack between them after raising the mill by adjusting the feet on their 4" stems.  

In addition, I get added side-to-side stability for the mill.  And with the 3 ½" and 4" wide bars, there's absolutely no problem with flexing.


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## Mr.Miz (Sep 25, 2020)

so I asked this on an old post today and was helpfully lead here. My question is why under the mill foot? Why not design something that goes over the foot and basically pulls up to get it into level. I realize the back side of the foot would have to be more creative but at least you wouldn't have to lift it up and then set it back down on something? So basically just take the picture and flip it.


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## Gaffer (Sep 25, 2020)

Now I understand your question. The difficulty would be attaching the bar to the base. The other issue could be with the mill's weight distribution on the studs/hardware. I'm no engineer and am just taking a stab at it, but having the bar under the base seems like a stronger setup. I am curious about what the others have to say.


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## Iceberg86300 (Sep 25, 2020)

Gaffer said:


> Now I understand your question. The difficulty would be attaching the bar to the base. The other issue could be with the mill's weight distribution on the studs/hardware. I'm no engineer and am just taking a stab at it, but having the bar under the base seems like a stronger setup. I am curious about what the others have to say.


If, and it's a very big if, the bar is solidly attached to the machine, strength would be equal.

Apologies for the horrid sketch. Still trying to figure out this Samsung note thing.

It's just a very basic diagram of the shear & moment you'd find in a bar subjected to point loads only.

Notice that the portion under the machine is subjected to a constant moment load only. If you cut that section out (which is basically what we'd be doing here) you can't just toss the moment, there needs to be a reaction somewhere & in this case it needs to go from the bar to the machine.

I could do the calcs for how much force that bolt going through the machine would be under but my gut feeling is that there's no freaking way I'd ever use such an arrangement. Plus the angles involved would add more issues depending on the feet used. 

Welding and/or drilling would be required & I wouldn't want to come close to doing either. LOL.

But, it could still be done. I just think what's already been shown is a much more practical method.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## Flyinfool (Sep 25, 2020)

I guess the best way to go would depend on the overall construction of your machine. My mill would not allow a bar over the top as the column is in the way on the back side. Also most machines have a flat bottom under the mounting points, Machines with a cast base will not be flat on the top of the mounting points.


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## akjeff (Sep 26, 2020)

I don't see that the stress on the bar would be much different if were on or under the mill, but the load on the heads of the bolts holding it in place would be considerably higher with the bar bolted on the top as opposed to the bottom. With the bar under the mill, the bolts are basically just locating the bar in place, and the weight of the mill is almost entirely supported by the bar and the leveling feet. Though there would be a small load on the bolts due to the bar inevitably flexing at least to some degree, and would pull down on the bolt. 

With the bar bolted on top of the base, the entire weight of the mill is essentially hanging from the heads of those four bolts. Not a good situation IMHO.

After typing this, I see Iceberg has already covered it, and did a much better job of it too!


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## schmidty13 (Dec 5, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> ...I settle my mill to as close to level that I can measure on my precision level...  I've always been leery that they'd compress and I'd need to re-level.



I saw a discussion once, I think at the PM forum, about whether mills need to be level to the world, or if table/head alignment is all that matters.  One guy made a comment that settled it for many, including me:  "Tell Navy machinists that machines need to be level."


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## akjeff (Dec 5, 2020)

schmidty13 said:


> I saw a discussion once, I think at the PM forum, about whether mills need to be level to the world, or if table/head alignment is all that matters.  One guy made a comment that settled it for many, including me:  "Tell Navy machinists that machines need to be level."



While I agree there is no functional need to level a mill, my shop floor has a pretty pronounced slope from the walls inwards and towards the garage door for drainage. The height difference between the rear feet and the front of my mill is around 3/4". Having my mill ( or any machine for that matter ) that far out of level would just drive me batshit crazy! When I set something round on the table/stand something on end; I don't want it rolling off or falling over. Just a plain good shop practice to level it IMO.


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## schmidty13 (Dec 5, 2020)

akjeff said:


> While I agree there is no functional need to level a mill, my shop floor has a pretty pronounced slope from the walls inwards and towards the garage door for drainage. The height difference between the rear feet and the front of my mill is around 3/4". Having my mill ( or any machine for that matter ) that far out of level would just drive me batshit crazy! When I set something round on the table/stand something on end; I don't want it rolling off or falling over. Just a plain good shop practice to level it IMO.



Oh for sure, I don't want to set an endmill on the table and watch it hit 30mph before shooting off the edge.  I'm just saying that worrying about it being tenths of a degree from level is far down on my list of concerns in the shop.  YMMV


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## Illinoyance (Dec 5, 2020)

My BP is just sitting on the floor.  I have used a bar to adjust its position several times.  Couldn't do that id it were nailed down.  I do need to shim one side to keep it from rocking.  A level machine can be a convenience if you use a level or angle box during setup.


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## akjeff (Dec 5, 2020)

schmidty13 said:


> Oh for sure, I don't want to set an endmill on the table and watch it hit 30mph before shooting off the edge.  I'm just saying that worrying about it being tenths of a degree from level is far down on my list of concerns in the shop.  YMMV


Same here, I just used a carpenters level on mine. With the change in seasons, I'm sure the movement of my slab would throw off a precision level job.


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## Dabbler (Dec 5, 2020)

The best reason for leveling a mill is to stop the cutters from rolling off the table!


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## ttabbal (Dec 5, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> The best reason for leveling a mill is to stop the cutters from rolling off the table!



Stick them in the slots of the table... And curse when you can't get them back out.


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## hman (Dec 5, 2020)

schmidty13 said:


> I saw a discussion once, I think at the PM forum, about whether mills need to be level to the world, or if table/head alignment is all that matters.  One guy made a comment that settled it for many, including me:  "Tell Navy machinists that machines need to be level."


I agree that machine tools don't really have to be level in order to function properly.  But I carefully leveled my mill (at least, the tabletop) to make it easier to check tilt angles or levelness of workpiece surfaces.  In many cases an "angle cube" gives me all the accuracy I need.  And it's less complicated if the mill itself is level.


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