# Managed to bust my new lathe :/



## ErichKeane (Jul 12, 2019)

For those who remember me, I picked up a 14" Reed Prentice a few weeks ago.  I FINALLY got it running today, the T nut made for my tool post, and ungunked the 3 jaw chuck.  I was flying high! I even put some CRS round into the lathe and started cutting it with some HSS tools.  On top of the world!

Then, disaster...  I decided to try power-feed.  I'd been used to a Logan 10" without power feed, and a single half-nut engage and move lever.  The RP however has a powerfeed engagement lever and a half-nut engagement lever.  HOWEVER, it also has a crossfeed engagement lever, and a linear feed engagement lever (Z axis and X axis?).  I didn't remember that, so I went to engage the power feed lever, it caught, then the gearbox selection lever exploded!



https://imgur.com/a/QfDH1K7


The previous owner apparently had a similar problem (it looks like someone did a terrible job welding this in the past), so I don't feel TOO bad.  I'm hoping the RP yahoo group  has someone with a replacement part I can buy, otherwise I have to figure out a good way to fix this one.  I have a bit of an idea on how to do that (remake the 'stud' part out of cold-roll plus a hole in the middle, then mill the handle down below that and find some way to attach them with bolts/pins/etc, but hoping I can just get a replacement instead.

Oh well, one step forward, two back, eh?


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## Firstgear (Jul 12, 2019)

The thrill of victory to the jaws of defeat!  You have the right attitude and you will get it fixed.  My heart goes out to you!


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## Chuck K (Jul 12, 2019)

Hard to tell from the pics, but I think I would braze the parts back together and machine it to clean it up.  I've fixed a lot of broken lathe parts by brazing them back together.   If done right, it's a permanent fix.  By the way...I'm jealous of your RP!


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## Cooter Brown (Jul 12, 2019)

I can braze that for you if you dont have access to an Oxy/Fuel torch..... Just pay shipping both ways....


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## ErichKeane (Jul 12, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> I can braze that for you if you dont have access to an Oxy/Fuel torch..... Just pay shipping both ways....


I know nothing of brazing, so if I can't just find a replacement I'll likely take you up on that! Thanks!


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## NortonDommi (Jul 12, 2019)

Bronze weld.  Brazing is for slip joints.


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## Chuck K (Jul 12, 2019)

NortonDommi said:


> Bronze weld.  Brazing is for slip joints.


Nothing against using silicone bronze rod, but you can do a lot more than sweating tube together with brazing rod.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 12, 2019)

Just about every lathe that has multiple feeds has interlocks to prevent you from engaging more than one feed at once.  Even really old lathes.  If it once had one, and it is broken or something, it should be repaired so parts do not get destroyed by engaging more than one at the same time.  Don't just fix it, try to fix it so it can't happen again...

On second thought, looked up Reed-Prentice, formed in 1912, that is perhaps old enough to be when machines did not have to be smarter than people.


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## Cooter Brown (Jul 13, 2019)

I mostly use Low Fuming Bronze, with StaySilv Black Flux and this stuff is crazy strong just as strong as a weld in most cases.... I also do Tig brazing but its very easy to get the metal to hot, gas brazing is very forgiving....

During WW2 the USA was gas welding air planes together and the UK was gas brazing their planes.... Both are strong enough to fly!

Is this the part that is broken? The end of the gear selector handle? We maybe be able to just make a new tube then pin and braze it on the handle....


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## NortonDommi (Jul 13, 2019)

Chuck K said:


> Nothing against using silicone bronze rod, but you can do a lot more than sweating tube together with brazing rod.


  Well there is dam Brazing, would you care too expand?


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## AGCB97 (Jul 13, 2019)

I had a similar experience but with less catastrophic consequence. The interlock lever was broken but was easily repaired and no further problems.
Aaron


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## Chuck K (Jul 13, 2019)

NortonDommi said:


> Bronze weld.  Brazing is for slip joints.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding this. When I think of bronze weld, I think of tig welding using silicone bronze and shielding gas. When I think of brazing I think of oxy-acet torch, bronze rod and flux.  Both are capable of making strong joints. Harley Davidson used to braze their frames together.


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## brino (Jul 13, 2019)

AGCB97 said:


> I had a similar experience but with less catastrophic consequence. The interlock lever was broken but was easily repaired and no further problems.
> Aaron



Aaron was that fixed with brazing?


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## ErichKeane (Jul 13, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> I mostly use Low Fuming Bronze, with StaySilv Black Flux and this stuff is crazy strong just as strong as a weld in most cases.... I also do Tig brazing but its very easy to get the metal to hot, gas brazing is very forgiving....
> 
> During WW2 the USA was gas welding air planes together and the UK was gas brazing their planes.... Both are strong enough to fly!
> 
> ...


Yep, that's exactly the part and area. If I had to fix it on my own, my plan would be to remake the circular part on the lathe, mill a flat on it and on the surviving cast iron, then either pin or bolt them together!

I've also thought about seeing if I could find a piece of steel cheap enough that I could just cut into shape and mill the ends( since those are the only important places), but that was kind of a last resort.


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## NortonDommi (Jul 13, 2019)

Chuck K said:


> Perhaps I am misunderstanding this. When I think of bronze weld, I think of tig welding using silicone bronze and shielding gas. When I think of brazing I think of oxy-acet torch, bronze rod and flux.  Both are capable of making strong joints. Harley Davidson used to braze their frames together.


  Hello Chuck,
                       A lot of confusion arises from the terminology.  I did my time in a English speaking former British colony so I am biased toward the English terms most of which have very deep historical roots.  As far as I am concerned Brazing is a purely capillary action using a low melting temperature metal,(above 450 degrees Celsius as differentiated from Solders which melt below 450 degrees Celsius),and was historically done with Brass.  Bronze Welding which is different metallurgically has similar working temperatures but is not as hot short and can easily be built up.  Audel's on Welding Handbook makes this very clear.  Think of the difference between using 'Easy-Flo' and Tobin Bronze.
  I am unclear as to when the term Braze Welding came into being but it was definitely started in America.  Here is one reference to that effect:  
https://www.esabna.com/euweb/oxy_handbook/589oxy14_1.htm   Prior to that Brazing and Bronze Welding meant two entirely different processes and everyone was on the same page around the world.
Here is some useful reference on Brazing: https://www.lucasmilhaupt.com/EN/Brazing-Academy/Brazing-Fundamentals.htm
  I'm probably just being pedantic,(I get really annoyed by people who call Welsh Plugs 'frost plugs' for example), but I happen to think that terminology is very important.


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## NortonDommi (Jul 13, 2019)

Note*  Having had a little rant about terminology I mucked up.  Should have written Welch and not Welsh.  Probably comes from mixing up ancestry with a family name so apologies for that.


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## Cooter Brown (Jul 14, 2019)

NortonDommi said:


> Note*  Having had a little rant about terminology I mucked up.  Should have written Welch and not Welsh.  Probably comes from mixing up ancestry with a family name so apologies for that.



Noooo those are called Freeze Plugs.... lol


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## MontanaLon (Jul 14, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> Just about every lathe that has multiple feeds has interlocks to prevent you from engaging more than one feed at once.  Even really old lathes.  If it once had one, and it is broken or something, it should be repaired so parts do not get destroyed by engaging more than one at the same time.  Don't just fix it, try to fix it so it can't happen again...
> 
> On second thought, looked up Reed-Prentice, formed in 1912, that is perhaps *old enough to be when machines did not have to be smarter than people*.


It would be interesting to see historical examples which show the advances of lathe abilities as they came into being. My guess is that half nuts came into use before power feeds. At some point power feed was added to a lathe with half nuts and within about the first 15 minutes of use someone managed to engage both at the same time and break the machine. The lockouts probably came into being because the manufacturer was getting complaints about machines breaking for exactly this reason and wanted to stop the nasty telegrams.

In other words, the intelligence of the user has very little to do with things going sideways. You can still find machines which don't lock out power feed with half nut use. But the manufacturers are on the other side of a giant ocean and they don't care, it is easy to ignore emails.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 14, 2019)

MontanaLon said:


> In other words, the intelligence of the user has very little to do with things going sideways.


Agreed, my original comment was tongue in cheek.  The reality is Murphy's Law (Anything that CAN go wrong eventually WILL go wrong.)  No matter how good we think we are, we all make mistakes.


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## Toolmaker51 (Jul 14, 2019)

Yes, no matter the perspective, we all make mistakes. Mistakes are a small issue; forgetting them is not.


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## john.k (Jul 16, 2019)

The previous repair is so bad,its likely to have failed under its own weight.......braze welding(which is filling a vee d out groove with bronze)......not silicon bronze ,which is best restricted to sheet metal and water fittings.,but tobin or nickle bronze,which while a bit harder to get to wet,is equal in strength to steel......Incidentally,when welding cast iron,use a bit of activated scaling powder first ,to make the bronze wet,then change over to borax flux as soon as the surfaces are wet....The scaling powder is apt to make a porous deposit if overused.


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## horty (Jul 23, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> Noooo those are called Freeze Plugs.... lol


And that Internal Combustion thing under the hood of  a car that makes it move is called a *"Motor*" lol


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## tq60 (Jul 23, 2019)

horty said:


> And that Internal Combustion thing under the hood of a car that makes it move is called a *"Motor*" :rolleyes


Engine...unless tesla...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## NortonDommi (Jul 23, 2019)

tq60 said:


> Engine...unless tesla...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yep, and now I an ROFL!


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## ErichKeane (Jul 24, 2019)

https://imgur.com/a/zXGGUBz


Finally got a few hours in the shop and pulled the lathe apart. It required quite a bit of disassembly to get this far!

By the time I was done, the welding shop near my shop was closed, so I didn't get a chance to ask him to do it, but I might try a shop near my office.  I have all weekend in the shop (first/last for a while!) So it would be nice to have it welded or brazed back together by then!


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## rjitreeman (Jul 25, 2019)

Sand the broken mating surfaces slightly. Hole will be undersize and oval. Braze together and then the trick is to mount it so you can bore the hole back to size and location.
Good luck.


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## horty (Jul 25, 2019)

ErichKeane said:


> https://imgur.com/a/zXGGUBz
> 
> 
> Finally got a few hours in the shop and pulled the lathe apart. It required quite a bit of disassembly to get this far!
> ...


I not saying the way I would fix that is the right way, worst way, or whatever way.
I see that your not really experienced at welding or brazing, (no disrespect) but I tell you how I would do it if it was mine,,and in-case someone else might want to give it a try..

Bevel out both pieces so all the broken rough casting is smooth, but leave a very small indication at the inside edges by the screw just so it will still fit in its proper position, clamp it securely in position, once its heated and tinned it should braze up great and will be none in the thread are, sounds easy, but does take some skill and experience, and need to really keep an eye on it.
Tim


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## ErichKeane (Jul 25, 2019)

I managed to find a Fab shop right next to my office and their welder seemed really confident about being able to fix it. So, I'm giving that a chance.

If it ends up breaking again, I figure I can turn the top piece and bolt it to the arm of the casting easy enough.


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## ErichKeane (Jul 28, 2019)

I got the part back last night. The shop tig welded it back together and it feels really strong. I ended up having to drill the hole back to round a little, and grind the welds flat to get the handle to work right, but all seems good! 

Today will hopefully be a few hours of reassembly.


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## ErichKeane (Jul 28, 2019)

Long morning, but its all back together   I haven't cut anything, but I ran it through gears and it seems to work fine.  It ended up being quite a bit of work, so now I suspect a nap is in order!


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## brino (Jul 28, 2019)

Excellent.
I have been following along.
Please let us know how it turns out.
-brino


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## KBeitz (Aug 21, 2019)

A few years ago I also destroyed a gearbox that had no  interlocks ...


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## Moper361 (Aug 21, 2019)

Chuck K said:


> Nothing against using silicone bronze rod, but you can do a lot more than sweating tube together with brazing rod.


Have seen quite a few exhaust manifolds bronze welded back together in the earlier days


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 13, 2020)

NortonDommi said:


> Yep, and now I an ROFL!



Absolutely, motors are electric, and engines are are steam and I/C. I had that hammered into me in trade school.


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 13, 2020)

Cooter Brown said:


> Noooo those are called Freeze Plugs.... lol



No not where I come from, only ever heard of them as Welch plugs, probably because nothing ever freezes down here.


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## AGCB97 (Mar 13, 2020)

brino said:


> Aaron was that fixed with brazing?


@brino Looking at this old post, I must not have seen your question. I would never neglect an honest one. Sorry!
I'm sure it was gas brazed. I did not have a TIG then.
Aaron


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## Superburban (Mar 13, 2020)

Downunder Bob said:


> Absolutely, motors are electric, and engines are are steam and I/C. I had that hammered into me in trade school.


And engine lathes are powered by ???


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## NortonDommi (Mar 13, 2020)

Downunder Bob said:


> No not where I come from, only ever heard of them as Welch plugs, probably because nothing ever freezes down here.


There is also the fact that whilst thou don't speak proper English across the ditch you do know the proper names for things aye?


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## NortonDommi (Mar 13, 2020)

On Welch Plugs only 'cough, cough' Ford owners should call them 'Frost Plugs'.  Here is a bit of history and as they are a 'mercan invention they should be called by the correct name especially by Americans!





						Welch Plug - Holdenpaedia
					






					holdenpaedia.oldholden.com
				




R.I.P. Holden.


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 14, 2020)

Superburban said:


> And engine lathes are powered by ???



In the old days they were powered by steam engines, then later by electric motors.


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 14, 2020)

In the early days of lathes they were not called engine lathes, just known as lathes. But during the development stages of the steam engine the lathes that were used, became known as engine lathes. The name has stuck even though the machine has evolved quite q bit since then. ASo back then they were not even steam powered., most likely powered by water wheel or windmills, or even horses on a treadmill.


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