# My Huge (new to me) CNC Mill



## JimDawson (Nov 9, 2019)

My son picked up a new toy today, a huge CNC bed mill.  Like new with only about 10 or so hours on it, but a little dusty from sitting around.

4th axis.

8 tool changer

Fanuc controls

Came well tooled with several tool holders

All wrenches

various cutters & endmills

vice

clamp kit

full documentation

Oh, and it was FREE   

Hasn't run in years, and did not come with a computer, but did come with the software and I have lots of computers.







Equipped with a massive 3 inch vice 




And a huge tailstock for the 4th axis



Even came with a laser center finder.



And the control panel.  Almost as big as the machine.



And hiding back there is the 8 tool changer




Runs on 120V, single phase. I've always wanted a desktop mill just to play with.  We run quite a bit of small plastic parts and this machine will be great for doing that.  It's equipped for coolant, but I think we'll just stick to plastic.  Going to be a fun little thing. 

Should have it up and running in a couple of days barring any unforeseen problems.  First order of business is to get the wood dust out of it, was sitting in a wood shop. But it never ran there.  Then I need to build a table for it, or maybe just get a HF tool box to set it on.

More fun & games


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## JCMunder (Nov 9, 2019)

I am jealous.  Good luck with it, I would love to play with something like that.


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## jeepguy88 (Nov 9, 2019)

Good price on that one! 
That thing is sweet.


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## Karl_T (Nov 9, 2019)

Only issue I see is the F$%^nuc control. Bitter experience has taught me, if it don't run scrap it out. Put in a new control.

Now, it may just fire right up and then run for years. it just when they start having trouble, get a spare bed room for your tech. because he'll almost move in.

just my two cents.


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## T Bredehoft (Nov 9, 2019)

I    am    Jealous   !

You have all the luck. If I had that mill I would have no use for it,  (I know, once I had the machine i'd wonder how I got along without it.)

That really is a sweet toy, with attachments to  dream about.  Do I see helical gears to be made?

Keep us up to date with it.


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## JimDawson (Nov 9, 2019)

Karl_T said:


> Only issue I see is the F$%^nuc control. Bitter experience has taught me, if it don't run scrap it out. Put in a new control.
> 
> Now, it may just fire right up and then run for years. it just when they start having trouble, get a spare bed room for your tech. because he'll almost move in.
> 
> just my two cents.



Actually it is a EMCO Fanuc emulator teaching control, but I have two 4 axis Galil cards sitting within arms reach right now.


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## JimDawson (Nov 11, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> Should have it up and running in a couple of days barring any unforeseen problems.



Well the first unforseen problem.    While the main software is on a CD, there is some kind of a install disk that is a 3 1/2 inch floppy that seems to be required.  The laptop top that I am using does not have a floppy drive and none of my other operational computers do either.  So I ordered a USB floppy drive, $13.99 from Amazon. We'll see of that works, supposed to be here tomorrow.

I tried to load the software on a Win7 laptop, but couldn't get the USB controller drivers to work with a 64 bit system.  So I dusted off an old WinXP laptop with a broken screen and got that part working.

While I'm trying to be open minded about the original controls, I am prepared to do a controls upgrade if this does not go well.  The only thing that is really stopping me from doing that right now is that I don't have a 6 axis controller in stock to run the machine.  My 4 axis controllers would run the 4 axes just fine, but I need 2 more axes to run the tool changer and the spindle.  I could run these with a second card, but I would lose the rigid tapping capability without being able to coordinate the motion on the spindle and Z axis.  There is another way to do this, but I need to think about that a bit, and see what the machine hardware looks like.


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## macardoso (Nov 11, 2019)

I've used one of those in school. Old machine, but decently well built. Expect performance like a Taig or Sherline. Great piece of hardware to teach on.


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## Karl_T (Nov 11, 2019)

Quote          Can you use the DMC-1860 card? or do these not have enough I/O for your needs?  There was one for $300 or so on ebay recently.                                                                                      Reply 
                       best deal I see now:








						GALIL DMC-1880 Rev.E, PCI  MOTION PCB as photo, sn:Random, DHLtoUS, Promotion.  | eBay
					

See easy conclusion. Your ID will ?. be blocked ?. Get Rates ?. That is the best of technical and feature information. and " 1st photo ".  and " first photo ". What is item condition ?.



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offer $400, bet you get it.     

Or here's an 1866








						1pc used  GALIL MOTION CONTROL DMC-1866 REV.E Motion Control Card  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1pc used  GALIL MOTION CONTROL DMC-1866 REV.E Motion Control Card at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



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Report


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## JimDawson (Nov 11, 2019)

Karl_T said:


> Can you use the DMC-1860 card? or do these not have enough I/O for your needs?  There was one for $300 or so on ebay recently.



It may be possible to use either one.  Not a bad price on either.  I need to check the I/O requirement, but I would think the 16 would be enough.  The only reason I really want a 40x0 is because then I can operate from a laptop or micro computer using an ethernet connection.


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## JimDawson (Nov 13, 2019)

A little update:

The USB floppy drive worked and I got the software to load properly.  After I repaired the machine door so the limit switches would work I was able to do some basic operations.  The machine homes and jogs properly, and I managed to release the tool from the spindle.

But..... I have to say I'm rapidly getting frustrated with the Fanuc emulator software.  I really want to use the machine, not try to learn Fanuc software.  So far I have not been able to get it to load a tool, it seems that there is no button that allows manual tool changes, so I assume it has to be done programmatically using a M6 tool change routine.  No reference in the book for manual tool changes.

I'll play with it a bit more before I rip out the controls and install my own system.


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## jeepguy88 (Nov 13, 2019)

Nice, I was secretly racing to get mine kinda going first.....lol jk


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## Karl_T (Nov 13, 2019)

After designing and building your own control, old fanucs just don't get it.


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## JimDawson (Nov 13, 2019)

Karl_T said:


> After designing and building your own control, old fanucs just don't get it.



Ya got that right.  I'm used to doing everything with a mouse click on well labeled buttons, not having to deal with something that was designed to run on an 8086 processor, pre DOS, and deal with cryptic graphics on push buttons.  My hat is off to the original programers, I'm impressed that they were able to run a machine at all.  But there is no reason I should have to take a giant step backwards into the computer stone age and learn 30 year old software just to run this cute little machine.   I'm too old for this ****.

The machine is on a pallet sitting in the corner for now until I get time to play with it again in a couple of weeks.  I have some paying work to get out the door, gotta support my tool habit.


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## JimDawson (Nov 22, 2019)

A little update.

I could use the machine as it is, but I don't want to expend the energy to learn obsolete Fanuc software, I upgraded my lathe just because of this. 30 year old Fanuc software in that case.

So here is what I want to do: Since everything is in working order, I want to use the existing ACC and write my own software to replace the EMCO WinNc software. I can write the CNC software, no problem there, what I don't have is any clue as to what the command strings and structure looks like across the ethernet connection.

So before I sit down and write a port sniffer, I thought I would ask if anyone has the command documentation.

Or do I just rip out the ACC and install a new controller and my software?


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## Boswell (Nov 22, 2019)

Jim, your talents never cease to amaze me. Writing a port sniffer and reverse engineering a command protocol is not a trivial task.   To answer your question though. Why rewrite  or port your software to the existing system. Replacing the controller so you can use your software drive standardization across your shop which can only be a good thing.   Regardless of what path you choose, I look forward to reading about it here.


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## JimDawson (Nov 22, 2019)

Boswell said:


> Jim, your talents never cease to amaze me. Writing a port sniffer and reverse engineering a command protocol is not a trivial task.   To answer your question though. Why rewrite  or port your software to the existing system. Replacing the controller so you can use your software drive standardization across your shop which can only be a good thing.   Regardless of what path you choose, I look forward to reading about it here.



Thank you for the kind words. 

I think you're right.  Installing my own system would be the path of least resistance.  Pretty much plug & play, and no learning curve.  I'm going to open up the panels today and see what the electrics look like.


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## Karl_T (Nov 22, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> Or do I just rip out the ACC and install a new controller and my software?



Especially if you care about upgrades and ease of maintenance, rip 'er out.


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## JimDawson (Nov 22, 2019)

Karl_T said:


> Especially if you care about upgrades and ease of maintenance, rip 'er out.



I started the process this afternoon.  Opened up the electrical cabinet and looked at the wiring and compared to the electrical documentation.  I actually have the original electrical documentation.  The documentation is very good and is accurate per the machine.  This machine is a perfect candidate for a DMC-4060, but am thinking about using a Dynomotion Kflop board.  Haven't decided yet.

The panel is well laid out and is wired to European standards, typical ISO 9000.



Closeup of the original computer box.  This has an actual off-the-shelf micro PC in it, but interestly, no hard drive or memory.  Has a proprietary PCI board that appariently has the firmware and memory onboard.  That PCI board is ported out to the connectnections you see here.




X, Y, Z stepper drive and spindle VFD.  The stepper drives are 3 phase output.  Haven't seen that before.  But they take a standard step & direction signal so no reason to change them.



I'm thinking about doing something like this.  I grabbed this example picture from Ebay, this DMC-4080 has a proprietary interface board attached that just plugs into the standard Galil D-sub connectors.  It would be pretty easy to design a similar interface board to be compatible with connections on the computer box above.  I may just buy this DMC-4080, still thinking about it.

The reason for building a compatible interface board is to not disturb the original wiring and thus allow easy return to the original computer system in case a future buyer wants the stock system, that way the value of the machine is maintained.  



Then I need to decide what computer to use.  I'm thinking a micro PC so it will fit in the existing enclosure.  It is deep enough that I can stack a micro PC and a Galil or a Kflop and put it all in the same footprint as the original unit.  Then just bring out the monitor and USB connections and hang a keyboard/monitor mount on the side of the machine.  Would be a nice compact unit.  I just need to find a micro PC that will run Fusion 360 so I can have that on the machine computer.

So at the moment the real decision is Dynomotion Kflop or Galil DMC-4080.  My software will work with either and both are good equipment, but there would be a learning curve with the Kflop, where the Galil is almost plug & play for me.  The Kflop is a lot less money, $249, vs. a used Galil >$1000.  Is the difference worth the couple hundred hours of learning/programming time?  

One other option is to use hardware I already have on the shelf and use Galil PCI cards.  I have several 4 axis cards around and could use 2 of them to run everything.  The down side of that is the wiring is going to get messy, and they require a full tower PC to stuff them into.  So I lose the nice compact system.

Decisions decisions. 

I may worry about this project after I finish up the the C axis upgrade on my lathe, just finishing up the software for that one, but still need to buy a servo motor and build the clutch hardware.  Then there is the CNC surface grinder project that I have been putting off for the last 2 years.  I have all of the parts on the shelf for that one also.


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## spumco (Nov 23, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> I just need to find a micro PC that will run Fusion 360 so I can have that on the machine computer.



I'm using a Zotac Zbox micro PC on my mill and it runs F360 just fine.  I've installed 2 others on plasmas and they also run just fine.  They're not the cheapest you can find, but no fussing around and they also offer fanless version to keep the debris out if that's important for your installation.

It runs F360, UCCNC, and internet youtube all at the same time while machining - not habitually, of course, but just for 'testing' purposes. 

The onboard HD600 graphics work just fine, and I've got an i7 w/8G of ram.  F360 doesn't lag except when I have a very, very complicated model with tons of inter-related sketches.  And that could be fixed with better drawing & parameter management than I'm capable of.

Iv'e found that if you want _*proper*_ fast F360, then you'll need to step up to a dedicated graphics card computer. And those seem to be double the price of any onboard graphics.

Following your work on this as I'm still in the spit-balling phase about the future lathe project.  I narrowed it down to Kflop, Linux, and your software on top of Galil hardware - thanks again for the help playing with it!

-R


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## matthewsx (Nov 23, 2019)

I like your idea of keeping as much original wiring as possible and staying in the original footprint. I can't imagine however a future owner wanting to go backwards after you've updated the controls but keeping everything onboard is a great plan.

Since you already have Galil figured out I would think spending the extra $$ to keep things the same in your shop is worthwhile. The initial purchase price should justify this as well as the fact that if you do sell the machine it will be easy to assist any new owner with set-up and troubleshooting.

If it were me, and if I had your experience I would do it exactly how I wanted even if it cost a few hundred more than the least expensive way. That thing is cute beyond belief and I could see it having a life as a mobile training center some day....

Cheers,

1ohn


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## T Bredehoft (Nov 23, 2019)

I;m coming late to the party, but 



JimDawson said:


> So far I have not been able to get it to load a tool,



Can you not write a subroutine for a tool change?   I'm 20 years past using M or G codes but it seems like I could have done so if the machines I ran had tool chanters.


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## JimDawson (Nov 23, 2019)

T Bredehoft said:


> I;m coming late to the party, but
> 
> Can you not write a subroutine for a tool change?   I'm 20 years past using M or G codes but it seems like I could have done so if the machines I ran had tool chanters.



Well, yes I could.  But I want to click to select the tool, then click to load the tool.  Then once the tool is loaded, I want to click one more time to set the height offset.     30 seconds and done!  That just makes sense to me.

This is how it should work.  This is from my lathe software, but the same still applies.




Why should I have to select 3 different screens, and hand write some G code and manually enter offsets just to setup one ^%(*&&# tool, that's just crazy.    Even our 2016 Haas has roughly the same sequence to change and set a tool, there is no load tool button.

Time for me to get up on my soapbox here.  Machine operations have not changed substantially since the paper tape days, with only minor differences, it's still the same G code.  There is no reason that operator conveniences can't be built into the machine operating code, it would improve productivity.  It doesn't matter if it's running on a Windows, Linux, or some proprietary operating system.  It's just programming and if you don't want a mouse on the system, then put a physical button on the thing to do the same thing.  The operator panel on the Haas looks like a space shuttle control console, has a button for everything except a tool change or load tool.

It's just stuff like this (and a bad experience with Mach3) that caused me to write my own CNC software to begin with.  My goal was to make it as easy as possible to run from an operator perspective.  Do I follow the normal conventions that have been in place for the last 50 years?  No, I just plowed ahead and made it work in a way that actually makes sense.  I understand why it was done that way 50 years ago, but with modern computers it's easy to make improvements without changing the overall functionality.  OK end of rant.


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## T Bredehoft (Nov 23, 2019)

In any case, I'm still jealous of your toys.   I just got through putting an iGAGING 6" DRO on my Ames turret lathe.   That will take some guess work out of it.


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