# Auction Shill Bidding Bots



## ddickey (Apr 9, 2022)

Take a look at items #277-#280 all look identical to me. I put in a $30 bid mainly so I don't forget about it and get an email of a higher bid. Someone or something bid $35. Wouldn't a normal person bid $7.50 0n item #279 rather than $35 on #277? It really makes you wonder. 








						Fahey Sales (A Jeff Martin Auctioneers Company) Auction Catalog - April 2022 Tools & Business Equipment Online Auctions | Proxibid
					

ACCEPTING ALL TYPES OF HAND & POWER TOOLS, WOODWORKING EQUIPMENT, SMALL CONSTRUCTION & FARM EQUIPMENT, LAWN & GARDEN, SHOP TOOLS, ALL TYPES OF BUSINESS EQUIPMENT & MORE.  DEADLINE TO CONSIGN: MONDAY




					www.proxibid.com


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## mmcmdl (Apr 9, 2022)

I for one sure can't figure these auctions out .


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## Flyinfool (Apr 9, 2022)

Or it could be that who ever raised the bid to $7.50 had put in a $35+ max bid so as soon as you placed your bid they were auto bid to beat yours. Ebay works the same way You put in your max bid and the system will increase by the minimum bid increase amount until you hit your limit or become the high bidder. Unfortunately you have no way of knowing if it is the auction company is shill bidding to get the price up since they are paid by a percentage of the final price.


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## mmcmdl (Apr 9, 2022)

Little off topic here . I've always wondered if these online poker tournaments are legit or NOT . Everyone is pushing them on the cable networks but who is to say they are what they state they are ?


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## ddickey (Apr 9, 2022)

@Flyinfool That sounds plausible. I put in $30 and it was probably at $7.50. Then the next guy put in, let's say $100 and it went to $35. Yeah I didn't think about that. You're probably right.


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## Chewy (Apr 9, 2022)

I can sympathize with you as having just lost several auctions by a dollar.  Flyinfool is most likely correct.  I have done several bids that were rejected because somebody had a higher limit already in and several that was raised within minutes by somebody else.  Most of the time I don't bid until the last 60 seconds.  That is when it gets fun.  Just don't get carried away.


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## ddickey (Apr 9, 2022)

Ever since I bought my first machine tool I've been hitting every auction around the Twin Cities. I used to be able to get great deals. I don't really see that anymore. Maybe I'm out of touch, lol.


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## Flyinfool (Apr 9, 2022)

I have only been to one auction of a machine shop. I was looking for a few specific items and did my homework as to the new and used prices I could find. One item was a right angle 1/2" Milwaukee Drill. The price at the local dealer was $125. the used and some VERY used units in the auction went for close to $200 each. People were just getting so caught up in the bidding they forgot to stop. I have not been to an auction since.


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## Chewy (Apr 9, 2022)

I make a wish list of tools seen on You Tube.  5-6 years ago it wasn't too hard to get a fair deal. Lately everybody seems to think they have some one of a kind special vintage item. It took two years to get a Starrett 98-6 level for $45 and an Indicol bore measuring tool for $60.  I too have seen them going for more then a new one. Auctions are a luck of the draw. Sometimes you win and sometimes you loose. 
Been on a loosing streak for last two weeks!!!!

By the way if you bid online other Ebay, check out the buyers premium.  Some are as high as 27%.

Currently buying clarinets for my wife to refurbish.  Same as machinery auctions.   Diddn't know that plain Jane clarinets were secretly made of gold!!!!


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2022)

So far as E Bay is concerned, I never bid on their site directly, I Use E Snipe, on their site, I bid the maximum that I am willing to pay, nobody sees the bid made by me, and it is not submitted to e bay until 5 seconds before the auction ends, E Snipe charges a very small amount for their service.  I miss very few items due to low bids.


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## Chewy (Apr 9, 2022)

benmychree said:


> So far as E Bay is concerned, I never bid on their site directly, I Use E Snipe, on their site, I bid the maximum that I am willing to pay, nobody sees the bid made by me, and it is not submitted to e bay until 5 seconds before the auction ends, E Snipe charges a very small amount for their service.  I miss very few items due to low bids.


That may explain why I have seen several auctions go crazy in the last 2-3 seconds.  Won about half and lost the other half.  My Wife used to use E Snipe.  Just haven't bothered.  Your bid still has to be higher then mine.   Bottom line is there are a lot people who pay way more then something is worth.  Must be rich.   I'm not.


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2022)

Chewy said:


> That may explain why I have seen several auctions go crazy in the last 2-3 seconds.  Won about half and lost the other half.  My Wife used to use E Snipe.  Just haven't bothered.  Your bid still has to be higher then mine.   Bottom line is there are a lot people who pay way more then something is worth.  Must be rich.   I'm not.


I am not rich, I know the value of what I bid on, which is not much lately.


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## Mini Cooper S (Apr 9, 2022)

When I was looking to buy my MG TC, I followed several on line auctions.  One in particular seemed to have shills bidding. First I noticed the stupid high bids at the beginning of the auction. For example, car worth about $30,000 is on the block. First bid is $5000, okay reasonable opening bid. 2nd. day of the 7 day auction and the next bid is for $20,000!  Why would you bid that high at the beginning of an auction? I checked the bidders profile and found that they bid on a lot of auctions.  All on totally unrelated types of cars, everything from trucks to Ferraris,  and have never won an auction!  This type of bibbing sure seems like a shill to me.

I also know of people that got stuck buying their own stuff because they had friends bid up their auctions!

Richard


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## C-Bag (Apr 9, 2022)

The local auctions have a “soft close” which means there is 10 minutes from the last bid which supposedly stopped sniping. All it did was prolong the stupid high bids. After the first auction and seeing ending prices I unsubscribed and never looked back. on ebay I never even look at auction items.


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## C-Bag (Apr 9, 2022)

Mini Cooper S said:


> I also know of people that got stuck buying their own stuff because they had friends bid up their auctions!


A friend got banned from eBay because somebody had hacked her account( she didn’t know it until this notice)and was bidding on an auction her husband had going. It’s rough out there in cyberspace.


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2022)

Mini Cooper S said:


> When I was looking to buy my MG TC, I followed several on line auctions.  One in particular seemed to have shills bidding. First I noticed the stupid high bids at the beginning of the auction. For example, car worth about $30,000 is on the block. First bid is $5000, okay reasonable opening bid. 2nd. day of the 7 day auction and the next bid is for $20,000!  Why would you bid that high at the beginning of an auction? I checked the bidders profile and found that they bid on a lot of auctions.  All on totally unrelated types of cars, everything from trucks to Ferraris,  and have never won an auction!  This type of bibbing sure seems like a shill to me.
> 
> I also know of people that got stuck buying their own stuff because they had friends bid up their auctions!
> 
> Richard


To think that I bought a MG TD back in the 60s for $225, this when they were worth about $750, not long after there was a TC for $1200, did not buy it.


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## Winegrower (Apr 9, 2022)

The thing about auctions that bothers me is that if I win, that means I'm the only guy in the world that thinks it's worth that much.


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> The thing about auctions that bothers me is that if I win, that means I'm the only guy in the world that thinks it's worth that much
> 
> Or the other bidders are cheap bas - ards and have no appreciation of real value,


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## Karl_T (Apr 9, 2022)

I think its safe to safe every online auction is full of shills. that said, i think Fahey runs one of the better more honest outfits. Been to there auction at least 100 times over the last 40 years. They are local to me.

Now Fram fram (used to be Hoff hilk) runs a crooked auction. There warehouse is packed with stuff that's been on different auctions several times. lots of terrible stuff where they took great care with the photos to not show the problems. I would NOT have anyone buy from them.

The days of getting lots of great deals at auction are over IMHO. Online bidding has just driven prices too high. I still watch them but seldom bring something home. My farm equipment and machine shop was purchased almost entirely at auction over the years. Almost all of it before the online fad.


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## C-Bag (Apr 9, 2022)

I’m sure things are different in different areas. I don’t see Mr.Pete slowing down at all. He seems to be in a zone there where his auctions are still good. Don’t remember if there is any simultaneous online bidding or not.


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## woodchucker (Apr 9, 2022)

ddickey said:


> Take a look at items #277-#280 all look identical to me. I put in a $30 bid mainly so I don't forget about it and get an email of a higher bid. Someone or something bid $35. Wouldn't a normal person bid $7.50 0n item #279 rather than $35 on #277? It really makes you wonder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, but maybe they didn't see it? why don't you bid on the other item.


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## woodchucker (Apr 9, 2022)

Flyinfool said:


> I have only been to one auction of a machine shop. I was looking for a few specific items and did my homework as to the new and used prices I could find. One item was a right angle 1/2" Milwaukee Drill. The price at the local dealer was $125. the used and some VERY used units in the auction went for close to $200 each. People were just getting so caught up in the bidding they forgot to stop. I have not been to an auction since.


that's why the callers at the auctions speak so fast. the faster they speak the less time you have to think about it. you are trying to understand them, so you have less time for your processing.

I got screwed at a tool auction because I didn't correctly hear the lot #. I was looking for the next lot, I though he said what I wanted to hear. I paid wayyyyy too much for junk.


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## rabler (Apr 9, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> that's why the callers at the auctions speak so fast. the faster they speak the less time you have to think about it. you are trying to understand them, so you have less time for your processing.
> 
> I got screwed at a tool auction because I didn't correctly hear the lot #. I was looking for the next lot, I though he said what I wanted to hear. I paid wayyyyy too much for junk.


That is on advantage to online auctions, you don't have to be able to hear what's going on.  Maybe the only advantage, lots of downsides.


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## woodchucker (Apr 9, 2022)

rabler said:


> That is on advantage to online auctions, you don't have to be able to hear what's going on.  Maybe the only advantage, lots of downsides.


yes, but you still have the closing time frame, which in a real auction keeps going until bidding stops.


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## ddickey (Apr 9, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> I’m sure things are different in different areas. I don’t see Mr.Pete slowing down at all. He seems to be in a zone there where his auctions are still good. Don’t remember if there is any simultaneous online bidding or not.


Part of that reason might be because the auctions are live..?? Plus Ill. is full of machine tool auctions. In MN we no longer have live machine tool auctions.


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## SLK001 (Apr 9, 2022)

Chewy said:


> Most of the time I don't bid until the last 60 seconds.



I usually wait until the last 5 seconds.  I then put in a bid that I would be willing to pay.  If someone wants it more than I do, then their bid should be (or should have been) higher.  I rarely bid more than once.


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## rabler (Apr 9, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> yes, but you still have the closing time frame, which in a real auction keeps going until bidding stops.


There are live online auctions and timed online auctions, so depends on which


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## tq60 (Apr 9, 2022)

20 years ago we bid on ebay for an Atmos clock.

Max bit 305.50 or something oddball when it was 100.

Someone sniped it at the last second for the same odd amount.

First bid wins so we got it.

Place odd change amounts for max bid. Sometimes it works.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## mickri (Apr 9, 2022)

I used to always use Esnipe on Ebay auctions.  Make the bid and forget about.  Lately I have been making the bid on Ebay.  Getting the same experience that I got before I went to Esnipe.  Somebody would keep bidding a dollar or two above the current high bid to see if they could get it for the minimum bid above the current high.  I have lost a bunch of auctions recently.  So I am going back to Esnipe.

Most of the stuff I buy on Ebay is "buy it now".  No bidding.  If the seller is willing to take offers I always make an offer 10% to 20% less.  My experience is sellers will always take a 10% under offer and often a 20% under offer.  If I think the item is over priced to begin with I keep looking.


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## 7milesup (Apr 9, 2022)

Karl_T said:


> Now Fram fram (used to be Hoff hilk) runs a crooked auction. There warehouse is packed with stuff that's been on different auctions several times. lots of terrible stuff where they took great care with the photos to not show the problems. I would NOT have anyone buy from them.



Funny you mention this Karl.  I have made a couple of purchases from Fram Fram and had OK results, but the last auction I bought stuff from him was pure criminal.  As you mentioned, he had pictures on the website showing everything except the missing pieces!   Then, when I get home I noticed that one of the other items was missing a piece, although the auction pictures showed that it was on the item.  When I emailed them they responded with "too bad".   Never again will I buy from Fram Fram.  Should be named Scam Scam.


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## ddickey (Apr 10, 2022)

Fram Fram is down in Savage. Same guy that is trying to sell a MicroMaster for $8500, lol.
Premier took over Hoff, correct?


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## 7milesup (Apr 10, 2022)

ddickey said:


> Fram Fram is down in Savage. Same guy that is trying to sell a MicroMaster for $8500, lol.
> Premier took over Hoff, correct?


Yes, pretty much.  I think Hoff is semi-retired.  I know Jim, Greg and Nate from Premier and they seem to be decent guys.  I have bought quite a bit from them over the last couple of years.  As others have mentioned, getting any deals on auctions lately seems to be rather rare.


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## Papa Charlie (Apr 10, 2022)

I have made a lot of purchases from James G Murphy auction house. Mostly stuff I would buy and then resell. But have had times when something was pictured in the lot image and when I went to pick it up, things were missing. Most likely was someone picking their lot up and grabbed off my lot. Impossible to tell. Murphy's has always tried to make things right for me in these cases, but sometimes it is beyond their control.

As for prices, I have seen some used tooling go for almost retail not including the 13% Auction fee and Sales Tax. I see this especially with the On-line auctions. People get into a frenzy at the end and just keep hitting that button. Crazy. I haven't purchased a single thing in almost two years because of the prices. A couple I that had some great prices but were simple too far to drive for pickup for what I wanted.

Some auctioneers are not, in my mind reputable. I limit my auction adventures to ones with good reputations.


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## ddickey (Apr 10, 2022)

@7milesup What do you think this will go for? 





						Machines Used | Denver ACE (Cincinnati Copy) Tool & Cutter Grinder
					

Denver Tool and Cutter Grinder - ACE For Sale Online Auction at www.machinesused.com Closes April 26, 2022



					www.machinesused.com


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## 7milesup (Apr 10, 2022)

ddickey said:


> @7milesup What do you think this will go for?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, that looks nice.  I predict that I will bid $50 more than you!  LOL.
@JRaut and I have exchanged bidder numbers on a couple of different auction sites so that we don't end up bidding against each other.  That happened on a couple of Wilton bullet vises we were bidding on.  

That tool & cutter grinder is 3 phase which keeps some people from bidding.


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## Gnpenning (Apr 10, 2022)

We have a long running auction company that has a long history of shady practices. When they ran live auctions if someone was dumb enough to keep their hand up or quick to raise a bid, if no one else was bidding they would pretend to have another bidder to run up the bid. They ended up with the items on some occasions you would see the same item the next week.  They went to online with very carefully poised  photos of items for sale hiding defects or broken and missing
parts. A ex employee has said on the last day of the auctions they go through the bids looking for Max bids and bidding the items up to that point.  Knowing how they operate this wouldn't surprise me at all. 

A new auction house opened a year or so ago with weekly auctions. After the first of the year they have gone online.  The price of almost everything has jumped significantly, even junk items.  I think most people have no clue and just have to own it,  paying anything to win.  Might be the only time they have ever won anything in their lives???  Not sure how long this will keep going?   I will say I was able to pick up a fair amount of machining items from the live auctions.  Some very reasonable and some not quite as reasonable.  I was able to meet a couple gentleman that have machining experience and have become friends.  They have given this beginner some great help.


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## Papa Charlie (Apr 11, 2022)

It makes sense that these auction houses are going to online auctions as people seem to get into a bidding frenzy and drive the prices up. When it comes to machinery, while they are far and few between these days, I prefer the in person auctions. People generally come for something specific and are much less likely to bid up items. Sadly, haven't seen one of those in at least 2 years.


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## macardoso (Apr 11, 2022)

mickri said:


> I used to always use Esnipe on Ebay auctions.  Make the bid and forget about.  Lately I have been making the bid on Ebay.  Getting the same experience that I got before I went to Esnipe.  Somebody would keep bidding a dollar or two above the current high bid to see if they could get it for the minimum bid above the current high.  I have lost a bunch of auctions recently.  So I am going back to Esnipe.
> 
> Most of the stuff I buy on Ebay is "buy it now".  No bidding.  If the seller is willing to take offers I always make an offer 10% to 20% less.  My experience is sellers will always take a 10% under offer and often a 20% under offer.  If I think the item is over priced to begin with I keep looking.


I use eBay Buy-it-now for a lot of stuff. Lately I've been looking for cables and such for older equipment. I can usually negotiate a best offer for ~50% of the original listing. I think this works well with older equipment that doesn't sell often but is listed relatively high.


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## rabler (Apr 11, 2022)

The issue with online auctions is that people realize after the fact that they’ve over bid, or just didn’t het some other item that was their real goal.  As a result some of the online auction houses want huge deposits.  At that point they have your money in hand so you’re at their mercy.


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## Provincial (Apr 11, 2022)

Used machinery dealers used to go to auctions to find inventory.  I wonder if they can find anything now at a price they can mark up from.


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## Karl_T (Apr 11, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> that's why the callers at the auctions speak so fast. the faster they speak the less time you have to think about it. you are trying to understand them, so you have less time for your processing.
> 
> I got screwed at a tool auction because I didn't correctly hear the lot #. I was looking for the next lot, I though he said what I wanted to hear. I paid wayyyyy too much for junk.



I had just the opposite years ago. It was a very large auction and they just split from one into two rings. People were still deciding which auctioneer to follow.  Anyway, one auctioneer went into the steel supply room and started trying to sell one rack  for $200 strarting- nobody bid. then he said, "the whole room"  200 dollars - I held my hand up. Nobody else bid. I got maybe 40 tons of steel. Lots of people were ****** - they did not hear him change from one stack to the whole room.

I had a 24,000 lb. ffith wheel trailer and it took me two entire days just to put the stuff on pallets and haul it home. more than a dozen trips.  Oh- I sold the steel rack that was too big for me to load for $150.

Anyway, I could share a few more tales of extremely good deals. But this was all in the days before online auctions ruined it.


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## Papa Charlie (Apr 11, 2022)

I had one auction where I purchased a huge pallet (lot) full of a specialized liquid toner for an industrial printer, I think I paid $125, plus auction fees and sales tax. The lot was 25 cases with 4 double boxes of canisters in each case so a total of 200 canisters which had a value of about $40 each them, depending on the source. Could not sell them for love nor money. Most people were cautious about buying an industrial toner from an unknown source. So after about 2 months of not selling any of it. I put it back up for auction with the same auction house. I had gotten to know the staff pretty good with all my buying and after talking about it with them, we decided to divide it up into small lots for the auction. I think we put it into 25 lots, one case per.

Well sold it all for more than 5 times what I had paid for it after auction fees. Was totally shocked.

Those days are gone, but for about 3 years I made a lot of money buying and reselling items from auctions. Between machines shops, construction, laboratories, warehouses, and many other types of businesses, the types of items varied greatly, I kept some items for myself but most of it I sold. I would buy cases of new items (Sodium Light bulbs, switches, disposables, etc) still in the box and ship them to Amazon to inventory and sell for me. Couldn't be easier.

One of my favorite items I kept was from a lab. I got a Sartouis analytical scale which had just been certified. Sold new for over $3000 and I got it for $200. I still use it for measuring my gun powder for my competition rounds. Also got a bunch of other stuff from that lab that I kept as well. All adapted to my shooting. Kick myself for passing on a lab oven that went to 2200F. 

Based on what I see today, those days are gone. I know I have said this many times, but it totally amazes me what people are paying for used tools, equipment, supplies, etc. It seems rare to have something go for a bargain.


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## rabler (Apr 11, 2022)

It will be interesting to see what the current economic trends do to auctions.  I could see it going either way, more people shopping for "bargains" driving prices up,  or tighter money driving prices down.


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