# indicators?



## Coomba (Aug 14, 2013)

I would like to buy a couple of test indicators, but I'm not sure which ones to get. I have a some old ones around, but would like to up grade I'm thinking one each .001 and one .0005, hope I typed that correctly. I have been researching different brands. All seem to be made in China or Japan, even the Starrett's. Some sites even go so far as to say that, they are all made in the same factory, and there are so many to choose from. Also what is meant by auto reversing? What should I look for in a moderately priced indicator?  Thanks guys


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## eightball (Aug 14, 2013)

i have 2 brown and sharp best test  i swear by them  , i had a starrett last word and gave it away. Never used an interapid but i hear they are good also.


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## Harvey Melvin Richards (Aug 14, 2013)

I have dozens of test indicators. My favorite is a Compac 224GA, it has a vertical 1.5" dial and reads in 0.0005" increments, and has 0.06" of travel. The dial spacing is very large so it's easy to interpolate to a much smaller dimension. 

Other good brands are Interapid, Best-Test, Mitutoyo, and Federal. Interapid and Compac are made in the same factory. Some of the older Best-Test's are just relabeled Interapid's. Lufkin test indicators (no longer made) are relabeled Compac's. Personally, I would avoid anything from China. Some people have had bad experiences with Starrett Last Word's and also with Gem test indicators. I have both, but I don't care for their mounting, so they are rarely used. I find the dovetail mount to be the most versatile, along with the flexible stem on the Interapids.

Most of my indicators were bought as used on eBay, and I've never gotten one that was bad.

Auto reverse means that you don't have to flip a lever on the side to get the needle to read when moving in the opposite direction.

Another thing to remember is that a test indicator is primarily a comparator, you don't try to get accurate measurements with these (usually) .


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## Tom Griffin (Aug 14, 2013)

I use Interapid's and they are excellent indicators, but definitely not moderately priced, being in the $300-$350 range. I would suggest that you get one dial test indicator that reads to .0005", with a range of .020"-.030". Mitutoyo makes very good indicators that fit that requirement at half the price of an Interapid. They are also made in Japan (a good thing). Enco sells a kit, Mitutoyo #513-512T for about $150 that would serve you very well. It reads 0-10-0 and has a .020" range. You should also have a magnetic base and a dial indicator with at least an inch of travel.

BTW, most indicators are auto reversing, meaning they will read in either direction without having to flip a switch to reverse them.

Tom


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## Coomba (Aug 15, 2013)

Senna said:


> If you meant, and I think you did since you referred to TEST indicators, .0001 and .0005 (one tenth and five tenths) then I'll say that I find both useful but for different purposes.Using a .0001 DTI (dial test indicator) for locating the center of a hole for instance is an exercise in frustration. The needle just moves around too much for me. The .0005 is the tool for that job. A vertical DTI is easier to use than a standard horizontal DTI for that task too.The .0001 DTI is the tool to use when you're measuring how flat a surface is, especially when surface grinding.I've never used a DTI that wasn't auto reversing so I'm not sure what the non-auto reversing DTI's are like to use. Auto reversing means the DTI will measure a surface when you touch the bottom of the ball to a surface below it and will also measure it when you touch the top of the ball to a surface above it. A DTI isn't a tool used to measure the size of a part by itself. It will measure small surface variations but to use it to measure the height of a 2" block it needs to be attached to a height gage. You zero it out on the surface plate the 2" block is sitting on, note the reading on the height gage or zero it out if it's a digital HG. You then crank it up a bit over 2" and bring the DTI down onto the block until it zeroes out again. You then read the height of your block on the HG.Many of the imported DTI's will work fine and they calibrate out accurately but I'm not so sure they'll have the longevity of life that a Starrett, Etalon, or B&S will.If I had to choose I'd choose a used Etalon or B&S over a new import.



My thought was to buy one 1/1000 and one 5/10000.But like I said I'm trying to find someway to compare, whats good about this brand whats not so good.What fits my purpose. Which ones to stay away from all together. Also what do they mean by repeading? Talk about sticker shock !!


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## Ray C (Aug 15, 2013)

Here's the general model I use for rough work and there's another one with 0.0001 increments with a range of +/- 5 thou.  I have  two of one and three of the other and have been using a couple of them for 3 years now.  Still going strong.  I've tested them with gauge blocks on a granite plate and they're right on the money.

http://www.shars.com/products/view/1963/030quot_Dial_Test_Indicator_0005quot

Yes, they're Chinese and cost about 30 bucks each and they work fine for my purposes.  I think there was once a time when the different brands really had advantages.  They all seem to come from the same factory and all those different brands only serves to cause a lot of confusion and arguments...

Anyhow, I used to have 3 each but one met early demise when I forgot to unclamp it from the carriage and sent into a spinning lathe chuck.  I'm glad it wasn't a $300 cherished brand as I didn't shed a tear when I tossed it in trash can.


Ray


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## mikey (Aug 15, 2013)

This site should give you what you need: http://longislandindicator.com/


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## Tony Wells (Aug 15, 2013)

If this is going to be your very first DTI, then I suggest you get a new one, not a used one, unless it is from someone you really trust. 0.0005 is adequate for most work. I'd say get yourself a cheapie, maybe even a Harbor Freight, if they have one. Then you will find out how to use one, and if you really need it. I'd say all machinists need one, but that's an opinion. After using one a bit, decide on a budget. InterRapid is top shelf, and top price to go with it. It really is a shame to drop one on the concrete. A cheap one won't hurt so bad if you do that. After the cheap one, get a good one, but one that you can justify. I have several, but my go-to is a B&S BestTest, black face. I won't knock any of them, but there are favorites and hates for everyone.


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## Bebop (Aug 15, 2013)

I've had many test indacators over the years my favorate's are Tesa's, and Brown and sharpe best tests, they were also made by Tesa. Both brands have proved ruged and reliable for many years. personaly I like a white face with black numbers I find them easy to read. I would sugest a long tip .0005 ind and a large face .0001 ind as another poster noted the large face is easy to read and split div on. Compac and Interapid are also exilent indicators. Auto reversing meens you dont have to flip a lever to mesure for the other side of the Ind tip.
Cheers Don


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## mikey (Aug 15, 2013)

I really like the Compac 214GA - it is a 0.0005" autoreversing DTI with a 0-60-0 range and a large white face with large spacing and numbers for my older eyes to see without magnification. Like the Interrapids, B&S, and Mits, Compacs are *repairable*, accurate, long-lived and extremely reliable. I suggest watching ebay. I bought both of my 214's there, one of which was nearly new for $50.00. 

You can spend money on a 0.001" DTI and they will suffice for general work but so will a 0.0005" model. 

If I had to pick one DTI to stay away from it would be the Starrett Last Word indicator. I have one and like it but it does develop a sticky needle due to magnetic accumulation that does not inspire confidence. It is also non-autoreversing. It is cheap though!

By the way, we are all assuming you mean dial test indicators instead of dial indicators. I can't speak for others but my advice would be the same for dial indicators - buy a quality brand like those above and buy it once.


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## jgedde (Aug 16, 2013)

+1 on the Compacs.  I have two: a 0.001 and a 0.0001.  I went through three Asian DTIs before I got the Compac 0.001.  It's been absolutely bulletproof in use for several years now.  

It did fall off the bench once while attached to a magnetic base.  As Murphy's law dicates, it landed on the probe tip.  Internally, all that happened is the bearing pin on the main crown gear broke.  I was able to get a replacement from Long Island Indicator.  I just called ahead and Rene' already had it ready for me when I got there.  Of course, they'll do mail order if you're not right around the corner from them as I am.  The point is they're tough and can be repaired.

John


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## Ray C (Aug 16, 2013)

Guys, please enlighten me (and I am NOT saying that in a cockey way)... but what are the real, tangible differences between the ones I pointed-out in a previous post in this thread vs. the ones costing $150-$350?

I use those Shars brand units and I've tested them on granite plates and gauge blocks and they show the right results. Two of my oldest ones are just over 3 years old and they get used at least 5 days a week. They were checked about a few weeks ago and they measure properly.

I have no reason to doubt there are differences but for the life of me, I don't see what they are or could be.


For years I worked as a mechanic. I liked Snap-On tools and bought them almost exclusively. I just liked the way they felt. In reality, I could get the job done with Craftsman brand.

Are we talking about the same thing here? -Again, I'm not asking this to be a jerk and cause problems. -Not my intention. I really want to know if there are tangible differences.


Ray


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## SE18 (Aug 16, 2013)

I have 2 cheap ones from HF that seem to do the job, at least both of them agree with each other


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## Tom Griffin (Aug 16, 2013)

Ray C said:


> Guys, please enlighten me (and I am NOT saying that in a cockey way)... but what are the real, tangible differences between the ones I pointed-out in a previous post in this thread vs. the ones costing $150-$350?
> 
> Ray



Ray,

One difference is reliability. I can rely on my Interapid to work as advertized every time I use it.  I've had inexpensive indicators before that have fooled me into thinking  that a part was aligned, when in reality it wasn't and the indicator  was sticking a bit near the end of its travel (that particular indicator is no longer with us). That can NEVER happen because one such incident will cost more in time and money than the difference between a cheap indicator and a brand name one.

Another difference is durability. I've had the same two Interapids for at least 25 years and they work just as well today as when I first bought them, and they lead a hard life. They been dropped, tossed, rammed into stops, you name it and they just keep on ticking. It's not that I'm careless, its just that I use them all the time. My indicators are one of the few tools I have that never get put away, they are within an arms reach all the time. The Mitutoyo that I recommended will never be as good as the Interapids, but it is a much more reliable and durable indicator than the Chinese knockoffs and barring an unfortunate accident, they will still be working long after the others end up in the trash bin.

Tom


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## Ray C (Aug 16, 2013)

I hear what you're talking about...

The Snap-On tools were a little "sleeker" and on a few rare cases, I was able to reach a bolt that a Craftsman brand wrench would not be able to reach.  On the flip-side, the two wrenches also had a slightly different offset angle on both the box and open end and there were a few rare times one could do the job and the other couldn't.  These situations are rare and in my years as a mechanic, cannot think of a single case where it really made a difference in the overall outcome of the job. 

I must confess something...  I feel badly about it to this day.  I was young and stupid in the days I worked as a mechanic and there was another guy who always bought Matco tools because they were much cheaper.  I always used to rib him about those "clunky" tools.  I didn't realize then, the magnitude of him supporting a wife and 3 kids and saving money by buying less expensive tools.  Turns-out, he was actually jealous of the Snap-On stuff and there I was rubbing it in -blindly and stupidly.  We got along fine and I considered him a friend.  I wish someone would have set me straight.

I appreciate your mentioning your experiences of passing/failing equipment inspections.  If my $30 DTI didn't pass after a few years of use, I'd thank it for a job well done and toss it in the garbage can.  I do indeed have a conscience -but not for worn-out tools.  Some folks repair their DTIs but, I gotta believe the round trip postage and insurance cost more than the 30 bucks I pay for the Shars brand.


Ray





Senna said:


> I don't know if this is analogous but I work on my cars all the time and there have been times, not many but a few, where multiple Craftsman tools failed to do the job but where a Snap-On did it just fine.
> For 99.8% of the work we do maybe the imports would work perfectly but when you're in that .2% only the top quality instrument will work.
> I do know that when I was doing a lot of tool calibrations for ISO9001 compliance I was often surprised that the cheap tools calibrated as well as the expensive ones.
> I did fail more cheap instruments than expensive ones however. The owner of the failed expensive instrument was a lot more disappointed than the owner of the cheap tool was though.


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## Ray C (Aug 16, 2013)

I hear you Tom and I do understand.


With only three years of track record with the ones I own, I'm not claiming any longevity records. I'd be darn surprised if the $30 clones last as long as the real McCoys.

LOL, I leave mine out too. -And here's why: At first, I kept them in their little boxes and shared 1 unit for my whole shop but one day, while chasing back/forth, I dropped it but got lucky because I managed to land it on the top of my boot and spare it a sudden date with concrete. At that point, I started to buy an extra one here and there with their own mag bases and stands. -Now, the chances of fumbling and dropping them is almost nill because they're right there where I need them, when I need them. No more screwing around putting them on different fixtures and stands...

I will say though, the one I left on the carriage of the lathe and fed it slowly on a death-path with a rotating chuck didn't look too good once it stopped bouncing around the shop... I was thinking about taking a picture and posting here but, I was too embarrassed at the time.


Think: "Lost In Space Robot -meets ******-off adult male Rhino". -The old tale of Prometheus vs Bob...


Ray





TomG said:


> Ray,
> 
> One difference is reliability. I can rely on my Interapid to work as advertized every time I use it. I've had inexpensive indicators before that have fooled me into thinking that a part was aligned, when in reality it wasn't and the indicator was sticking a bit near the end of its travel (that particular indicator is no longer with us). That can NEVER happen because one such incident will cost more in time and money than the difference between a cheap indicator and a brand name one.
> 
> ...


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## george wilson (Aug 16, 2013)

I had a Chinese indicator for many years until I got a nearly new Mitutoyo pretty cheap. I gave the Chinese one away,but wish I'd kept it as a backup. The guy I gave it to turned out to be not nice at all.


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## Harvey Melvin Richards (Aug 16, 2013)

Not the same as a test indicator, but I know several people (and have heard of many more) that have Blake knock-off Co-Ax indicators that have never worked, or they're off by quite a bit.

You can get very good indicators on eBay for a fraction of their new cost. The only ones that go for a lot are the Interapids. Look for a Brown and Sharpe version, and it will be half the cost. Like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BROWN-AND-S...3kltyd5vOkBBQtM0%2BBo%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


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## Coomba (Aug 17, 2013)

Ray C said:


> Guys, please enlighten me (and I am NOT saying that in a cockey way)... but what are the real, tangible differences between the ones I pointed-out in a previous post in this thread vs. the ones costing $150-$350?
> 
> I use those Shars brand units and I've tested them on granite plates and gauge blocks and they show the right results. Two of my oldest ones are just over 3 years old and they get used at least 5 days a week. They were checked about a few weeks ago and they measure properly.
> 
> ...



Would someone please explain to me how an indicator is tested using a granite plate?


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## refinery Mike (Aug 17, 2013)

If you could tear the DTI apart and look at the insides the difference between a chinese and a Good american brand the difference would be obvious. the parts in the chinese ones look like brass clock parts. the more expensive American ones are made out of hardened steel parts and jeweled pivots. Also what you plan to do with the DTI may make a difference. I find Interrapid to be better on a mill while Brown and Sharpe is better on the lathe. And when i can i would use a simple Dial Indicator instead of a DTI on a lathe. Easier to read for old eyes.
     I also wonder what you are going to be doing that you need a DTI with one ten thousanths divisions for. Remember the smaller the divisions the less total travel the dial has. Unless you have a compelling reason to use such a fine instrument you would be far better served by a less sensitive indicator. The .0005 indicator would be more than accurate enough for 99.9 percent of all hobby machinists.


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## mikey (Aug 17, 2013)

Coomba, this is from Long Island Indicator Service's site:

*Test indicators can also be calibrated on a  surface plate using certified gage blocks. The indicator is securely  fastened to a stand and the contact point is brought in contact with a  gage block of a given size. The contact point must be parallel with the  surface of the block for most manufacturers. Interapid  test indicators are an exception and should be at a 12-degree angle,  approximately. The gage block can then be removed and replaced a number  of times to check for repeatability. Be certain that discrepancies in  repeatability are not due to poorly tightened clamps, flimsy stands or  other factors. Usually one quarter of a graduation repeatability is  allowable, but check with the manufacturer's calibration specs for your  particular model. 
*
*Errors in repeatability indicate a need for cleaning and, possibly, repair. Do not attempt this without experience.*
*Accuracy  in travel is checked by replacing the gage block with one larger. Very  small intervals are required. Ideally you'd want to check the travel at  every half revolution, or better. During this procedure be certain that  the gage blocks are properly wrung to each other and to the surface. In  general, accuracy should not vary more than one graduation per dial  revolution on .0005" indicators.*


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## Ray C (Aug 17, 2013)

I use the tenths DTI probably more than the half-thou...  On the surface grinder, many finished parts are in the tenths.  On some areas of the boat propeller shafts I make and recondition, the bearing races are pressed on and a typical shaft is 1.25" -0.0000 +0.0003.  Also, some of the shafts have various gears and lobes that are pressed and keyed.  They all have similar tolerances. On the lathe, I can take things to the far half-thou then TPG it home.  Everything is 316 SS.

I have a home shop but I do work for some marinas -also do work for a local lawnmower/tractor repair place...

EDIT:  Oh yeah, then there's the tool cutter/grinder... I've been making some taper reamers for my own projects and I want them drop-dead-on...

Ray




refinery Mike said:


> If you could tear the DTI apart and look at the insides the difference between a chinese and a Good american brand the difference would be obvious. the parts in the chinese ones look like brass clock parts. the more expensive American ones are made out of hardened steel parts and jeweled pivots. Also what you plan to do with the DTI may make a difference. I find Interrapid to be better on a mill while Brown and Sharpe is better on the lathe. And when i can i would use a simple Dial Indicator instead of a DTI on a lathe. Easier to read for old eyes.
> I also wonder what you are going to be doing that you need a DTI with one ten thousanths divisions for. Remember the smaller the divisions the less total travel the dial has. Unless you have a compelling reason to use such a fine instrument you would be far better served by a less sensitive indicator. The .0005 indicator would be more than accurate enough for 99.9 percent of all hobby machinists.


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## Coomba (Aug 20, 2013)

Hey, Thanks guys for all the input, its has been very helpful.:thinking:


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