# WoW....Checked the tram on my new PM 728-VT



## DBlue (Sep 10, 2021)

I got my new tram gauge today and I checked the tram on my new 728 vt . It was dead nuts in both axis.....I didn’t have to do any adjustments at all....Thank You Precision Mathews.....


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## 6061T6 (Sep 10, 2021)

Mine was dead nuts too. With a haimer I saw less than 0.02mm across the entire X axis!
I believe they are trammed before they leave the factory and are really tightened well.
It was really good to see this.


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## DBlue (Sep 10, 2021)

6061T6 said:


> Mine was dead nuts too. With a haimer I saw less than 0.02mm across the entire X axis!
> I believe they are trammed before they leave the factory and are really tightened well.
> It was a really good to see this.


I have been making parts on this mill since I got it last Tuesday, I knew the tram had to be close as my parts came out great. I was really happy to see it was dead on after checking it today....I just wish I had bought one of these mills when they first came out...


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## RetiredRich (Sep 10, 2021)

This is so encouraging!  Thank you for posting.  I'll have to call PM next week to get an ETA on my 728vt.
Did you also get the DRO with your mill?  From their web site it seems that mills with DRO will ship later.  This may be why I'm still waiting.


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## 6061T6 (Sep 10, 2021)

The DRO is a must-have with this (or any) mill. Unless you plan on CNC'ing it. 
I received my mill early this year and the DRO versions did take a bit longer. The DROs are installed in the US by Precision Matthews employees. It is a very good DRO.


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## DBlue (Sep 10, 2021)

RetiredRich said:


> This is so encouraging!  Thank you for posting.  I'll have to call PM next week to get an ETA on my 728vt.
> Did you also get the DRO with your mill?  From their web site it seems that mills with DRO will ship later.  This may be why I'm still waiting.


Yes, I got the DRO and the power drive for the table and the stand..the ones with the DRO do take longer to get but it’s worth the wait and they did an excellent job installing it. That wait is hard but when you get it you will forget about it...


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## sunrise305 (Sep 10, 2021)

RetiredRich said:


> This is so encouraging!  Thank you for posting.  I'll have to call PM next week to get an ETA on my 728vt.
> Did you also get the DRO with your mill?  From their web site it seems that mills with DRO will ship later.  This may be why I'm still waiting.


On Wednesday a PM sales rep told me they are expecting a shipment of 728s next week and that the DROs are in stock.  They also said a new order that day would likely be shipped mid-October because there are quite a few installations that need to happen once the 728s arrive.


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## RetiredRich (Sep 23, 2021)

sunrise305 said:


> On Wednesday a PM sales rep told me they are expecting a shipment of 728s next week and that the DROs are in stock.  They also said a new order that day would likely be shipped mid-October because there are quite a few installations that need to happen once the 728s arrive.


I was starting to think that PM forgot about me.
I just checked with PM and the salesman told me that they expect another shipment for the 728 in 2 weeks only. Add a couple of weeks to install the DRO and I might get mine delivered sometime in November.

I bought mine on June 3rd.


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## Janderso (Sep 23, 2021)

I'm surprised they ship them with the head upright.


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## Christianstark (Sep 23, 2021)

My initial ETA for my machines was August. Im still waiting. Shipping has been a nightmare lately. Ordered in April.


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## RetiredRich (Sep 23, 2021)

Christianstark said:


> My initial ETA for my machines was August. Im still waiting. Shipping has been nightmare lately. Ordered in April.


Yikes. Maybe November was wishful thinking on my part. I'm now hoping at least for a Christmas present.


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## Cletus (Sep 23, 2021)

DBlue said:


> I got my new tram gauge today and I checked the tram on my new 728 vt . It was dead nuts in both axis.....I didn’t have to do any adjustments at all....Thank You Precision Mathews.....


I too got me one of those fancy new tram gauges today from Edge Technology.  Quite nice, especially for tramming the nod on knee mills. My tram is <0.0005 on the X and Y axes.


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## Cletus (Sep 23, 2021)

6061T6 said:


> Mine was dead nuts too. With a haimer I saw less than 0.02mm across the entire X axis!
> I believe they are trammed before they leave the factory and are really tightened well.
> It was really good to see this.


How do you like the Haimer?
I want one, but $43 if you break one of those little red ceramic "mechanical fuses",  kinda turns me off, at the price of the instrument, IMHO they could at least provide one spare.


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## kb58 (Sep 23, 2021)

Dumb question for the OP: Did you turn the spindle 180 degrees and confirm that the readings don't change?


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## 6061T6 (Sep 23, 2021)

Cletus said:


> How do you like the Haimer?
> I want one, but $43 if you break one of those little red ceramic "mechanical fuses",  kinda turns me off, at the price of the instrument, IMHO they could at least provide one spare.


 I try to be really careful with those ceramic tips  as they are priced very richly.
I find the haimer more convenient than nearly every other tool that gives around 0.001 accuracy.  It is convenient as it measures deviation in all axes. There isn't much judgment required -- as in say a wiggler.  It does everything -- edge finding, center finding. No corrections to be applied to DRO later. 
The only device that is more convenient to use is the Dan Gelbart laser centering device (centerquic.com). That is supposed to be accurate to 0.002". I've found it a bit better than that actually.  But this device isn't as versatile as the haimer.

There is the ever present worry that I will break a tip so that is a downside.

There was a device that was haimer clone with $7 tips that came up on kickstarter but they didnt raise enough money unfortunately.


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## addertooth (Sep 24, 2021)

kb58 said:


> Dumb question for the OP: Did you turn the spindle 180 degrees and confirm that the readings don't change?


He did.  Note that the T-slots have rotated 90 degrees between his two pictures.  

I hear he did it the "iron man way", and held the indicators still, and rotated the whole mill


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## kb58 (Sep 24, 2021)

addertooth said:


> He did.  Note that the T-slots have rotated 90 degrees between his two pictures.
> 
> I hear he did it the "iron man way", and held the indicators still, and rotated the whole mill


No, I was asking if it had been turn _180 _degrees. Depending upon how the dial indicators are zeroed, they "could" read something very different when their positions are swapped. The only way that's not an issue is if the indicators are known to extend the exact same amount, and that the shaft in the quill is known to be exactly 90° to the plane of the indicators.


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## addertooth (Sep 24, 2021)

kb58 said:


> No, I was asking if it had been turn _180 _degrees. Depending upon how the dial indicators are zeroed, they "could" read something very different when their positions are swapped. The only way that's not an issue is if the indicators are known to extend the exact same amount, and that the shaft in the quill is known to be exactly 90° to the plane of the indicators.


Sorry about that, I mis-read your question.


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## jwmelvin (Sep 24, 2021)

kb58 said:


> Depending upon how the dial indicators are zeroed, they "could" read something very different when their positions are swapped.



The usual procedure is to zero both on the same point, rotating 180° to do so. The Edge Technologies tool comes with a small magnet to zero on. It seems impossible (as you mention) to use a dual-indicator trimming device without doing so. Once you’ve zeroed them that way, it’s hard to see much benefit from rotating and remeasuring the reference surface too, but I suppose one could.


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## yota (Sep 24, 2021)

assume that if you rotate the tool 180 and the reading is off then either the tramming tool is not square or the collet and/or spindle is not true?


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## DBlue (Sep 25, 2021)

kb58 said:


> Dumb question for the OP: Did you turn the spindle 180 degrees and confirm that the readings don't change?


Yes, I did...the gauge comes with a small magnet that you use to calibrate both gauges to the same height. I placed the magnet on the table and set one gauge and rotated the spindle to the other gauge and set that one and then checked the tram in both axis. I also checked the calibration of the gauges with the magnet in different locations on the table and the calibration and tram was the same. You can see the magnet on the table in the background of that second pic.


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## erixgix (Sep 28, 2021)

DBlue said:


> I got my new tram gauge today and I checked the tram on my new 728 vt . It was dead nuts in both axis.....I didn’t have to do any adjustments at all....Thank You Precision Mathews.....





6061T6 said:


> Mine was dead nuts too. With a haimer I saw less than 0.02mm across the entire X axis!
> I believe they are trammed before they leave the factory and are really tightened well.
> It was really good to see this.



Congrats you guys!! 

You must be living right for sure. I recently received mine,  running thru the set up and checks I did not see your good fortune. But, they are production pieces.  

Hey, can one of you please buy me a lotto ticket


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## addertooth (Sep 28, 2021)

I haven't checked my tram with an indicator yet... but my 3 inch 4 insert Shell cutter puts a perfect pattern on top of the steel, with no dishing.   It is true whether I cut from left to right, or right to left.   That alone tells me everything is darn close.


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## Christianstark (Sep 28, 2021)

addertooth said:


> I haven't checked my tram with an indicator yet... but my 3 inch 4 insert face mill cutter puts a perfect pattern on top of the steel, with no dishing.   It is true whether I cut from left to right, or right to left.   That alone tells me everything is darn close.


Have you done facing on Y to see if you have any nod to address?


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## addertooth (Sep 28, 2021)

Christianstark said:


> Have you done facing on Y to see if you have any nod to address?


Yes, I am making the brackets for a DRO install. Once the machine is all configured up, then I will take the time to sweat the tenths of thousandths.


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## erixgix (Sep 28, 2021)

I've always thought it was good to know before using an item, but maybe its best not to know if it just flat works well. 

Hmmmm....I smell a great topic for a poll. Out of the box tram numbers! I'd be curious to know it. PM mentioned to me that they were aware some folks where scoring huge with incredible out of the box results, but its not their expectation.


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## addertooth (Sep 28, 2021)

erixgix said:


> I've always thought it was good to know before using an item, but maybe its best not to know if it just flat works well.
> 
> Hmmmm....I smell a great topic for a poll. Out of the box tram numbers! I'd be curious to know it. PM mentioned to me that they were aware some folks where scoring huge with incredible out of the box results, but its not their expectation.


erixgix,
It is "best practice" to confirm trueness before you use an piece of equipment.  If you intend some upgrades, it makes sense to put it off.  I trued my lathe first, but then decided to install new brass gibs, and headstock bearings.  Guess what, I will have to repeat all of those metrology exercises over again after those upgrades.  So now, I do a spot check on shop equipment, do whatever mods it needs, and then do all the metrology.  

In the case of brackets, which will have slots on them to adjust tenths of an inch, it is less critical.  This is especially factual on the brackets, when you have confirmed the surfacing runs parallel with the table, and you have examined the large face mill is not creating central dips when cutting in the four primary cutting directions.  In this latter case, it is with certainty the mill is cutting within 1/1000 of an inch, which is close enough for slotted brackets. 

Once all the goodies are installed (X-Axis power feed, Digital Read Outs with scales, a vice), then I can worry about the possible tenths of thousandths it *could* be off.  For the record, the Vice is in, as well is the X-Axis power feed. I am considering a power Z axis upgrade as well; cranking that head up and down is "tiresome".


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## DBlue (Sep 29, 2021)

erixgix said:


> Congrats you guys!!
> 
> You must be living right for sure. I recently received mine,  running thru the set up and checks I did not see your good fortune. But, they are production pieces.
> 
> Hey, can one of you please buy me a lotto ticket


After checking mine and getting those dead nut readings.... that's the first thing I thought of was going out and buying a lottery ticket but I got busy and forgot about it...lol


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