# Need forklift advice



## strantor (Jun 12, 2018)

I got a great deal on a forklift through one of my customers. I don't know much about forklifts and I think I might have gotten something unsuitable for my needs. My plans for this thing were to bring heavy stuff to/from the yard and the shop. This forklift won't drive 3ft across dry dirt or grass before it gets "stuck."

The first and most obvious problem is the tiny and smooth warehouse tires. They suck so bad that I swear I saw them lose traction sitting on dry level pavement with the forklift turned off.

The other problem is the forklift has a differential which isn't of the "limited slip" variety, and no suspension. So any time it gets on a surface of unspecified flatness, one wheel comes of the ground, and that wheel is invariably a drive wheel, and the drive wheel just spins in the air. "Stuck"

Do I need to send this forklift back? Trade it in? Is the problem with the forklift or the operator (me)? Is there anything I can do to make this forklift work for me?

Note: the forklift is "stuck" in all attached pictures. It got "stuck" 5 times on the trip from the street to the shop on the temporary wooden driveway.


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## Glenn Goodlett (Jun 12, 2018)

Those aren't worth a dam except in a warehouse, where they shine. You need an all terrain or rough terrain fork lift.

Kind of like you got a dump truck to use as a tow truck...it just won't work.


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## Bob Korves (Jun 12, 2018)

If you are using a forklift off of hard surfaces like asphalt or concrete,  all terrain types with pneumatic tires make more sense.  They are bulkier, which makes for better traction, but they are also wider, which makes moving stuff around in a tight shop a lot more difficult.  A skid steer or small tractor can also be a good idea depending on how heavy the loading will be and what other jobs you might have for it.  You have a big place showing in the pics, so maybe a fork lift, skid steer, or tractor would be good to have around for other jobs as well.  Fork lifts and tractors are wonderful when you need them, but they are also prone to lack of care by the owner, and tend to be cantankerous when actually needed after sitting idle outside for months.  Renting one when needed negates taking care of it, and being able to borrow one from a neighbor can be worth a LOT of being kind in return.


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## FOMOGO (Jun 12, 2018)

Definitely designed for flat surfaces. If your needs require use on uneven surfaces, and you got this at a great price. I would sell it and find one with pneumatic tires. Mike


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 12, 2018)

Can you fit larger dia wheels preferably pneumatic with tread. Alternatively trade it in on one more suitable for the intended use.


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## strantor (Jun 12, 2018)

I talked to the guy I bought it from and he was very understanding. He is willing to take it back. I think I'm going to return it and instead buy two things:
1. Used tractor with pallet forks for getting things to/from the shop.
2. Used Straddle stacker for moving things around inside the shop.


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## Ken from ontario (Jun 12, 2018)

I would love to have one of those 3 wheel  forklift that hangs on the back of flatbed trailers, I have gravel driveway with a steep slope , couldn't believe my eyes when HD  delivery guy used  it  to deliver a few heavy skids from the street all the way down the driveway and dropped them off right in front of the garage door, he went up the gravel driveway  back and forth without slipping  sliding not even once, the type I'm talking about looks similar to these :


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## Ed ke6bnl (Jun 12, 2018)

I have an old Clarke 1960 ish, got if for free runs on propane and  is gutless and can get stock everywhere 4 wheel smooth and small. but in the High desert that we live in the ground is normal very hard and I can ride it all over the fearly level portions of the property, I did pick up a tire tread cutting tool and was thinking of grooving the tires. also I am good till my front tire goes over a gopher hole and it can sink in and stuck. learned and a more careful where I go. Make life easier for my age to get some jobs done. Check what the limitations are on your bucket for your tractor.


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## Silverbullet (Jun 12, 2018)

On dirt and sod only wide balloon tire lifts will work. We have two next door they're air tires and if they hit the dirt or sand they sink and spin. The type sod farms use and big delivery services have that hang on the trailer behind a semi is what your talking about. If you had a bobcat or that type tractor it will go most anywhere . But we've even had people get them buried and stuck . Fork attachments are plentiful , you could build a four wheel jib crane with a hitch and use a garden tractor to move items.


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## strantor (Jun 12, 2018)

I want a bobcat SO bad, but the prices are outrageous.


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## vocatexas (Jun 12, 2018)

For moving things around with forks, a skid steer loader would be much more flexible than a tractor. They will turn on a dime and can pick up a lot more than tractor forks. As Strantor said though, they ain't cheap. Plus, they are more maintenance intensive than a tractor. That said, I wouldn't trade mine for anything except maybe a larger 'dozer.


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## rock_breaker (Jun 15, 2018)

I have a Branson 3510 tractor with a front loader that I made a fork lift attachment that replaces the bucket. The fork lift or bucket goes in an arc so the lifting capabilities decrease near ground level. With 4 wheel drive it will go most places which can be troublesome on really rough ground, things fall off the pallet. It is relatively maneuverable  but requires concentration on the work at hand.  I like the convenience of having an excavator or fork lift. 
Have a good day
Ray


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## Bob Korves (Jun 15, 2018)

strantor said:


> I want a bobcat SO bad, but the prices are outrageous.


They can also be tricky to drive, or at least they were 30-40+ years ago, not hydraulic.  I still remember one of our mechanics trying to move one without any previous training or experience.  He immediately ran into the wall, hard, and the recoil from that made him pull the handles, and the acceleration made him go forward again to bounce off the wall again.  And again, and quite a few more times.  We were all screaming at him "LET GO".  But he couldn't hear us over the engine.  He finally figured it out and let go.  He was WIDE awake.  We couldn't stop laughing all day.  I am glad I learned how to drive one AFTER watching that spectacle.  I was VERY careful...

First rule of Bobcats for me -- when in doubt or trouble, let go of the controls.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jun 15, 2018)

I'm not real big on "skid steer" loaders. I prefer several attachments for my Cat. 1 three point. If there is room, the front bucket will reach on the roof of an old house with bolt-on forks. When things are tight, or the load *real heavy*, the three point has several attachments from a "skimmer" bucket to a fairly long reach pole. Any and all of them have shackles for a chain or come-along to budge stuff. 

My tractor is old, and two wheel drive, but I never had it stuck. Slipped a few times when I hooked on to a tree stump that was tighter than the tractor was heavy. My bad judgement there. A home-made explosive device broke the stump loose. Another story, though. Tractor tires are cheap compared to other machines, too. The hydraulics usually have a way to tap into, even for cheaper or smaller tractors. Some stuff is bought, some is "imagineered", with regards to Disney for instituting a useful word.

With a more modern 4 wheel drive tractor, front bucket, and some thought, you will find not only a solution to your existing problems, but an easier way to handle things that usually are done manually. My input only, but I would vote for a small farm tractor any day over a more specialized machine. I live in the older city by the way, not out in the country. Although I do have a place out  there, most of my work is local.
Bill Hudson​


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## strantor (Jun 15, 2018)

Bi11Hudson said:


> I'm not real big on "skid steer" loaders. I prefer several attachments for my Cat. 1 three point. If there is room, the front bucket will reach on the roof of an old house with bolt-on forks. When things are tight, or the load *real heavy*, the three point has several attachments from a "skimmer" bucket to a fairly long reach pole. Any and all of them have shackles for a chain or come-along to budge stuff.
> 
> My tractor is old, and two wheel drive, but I never had it stuck. Slipped a few times when I hooked on to a tree stump that was tighter than the tractor was heavy. My bad judgement there. A home-made explosive device broke the stump loose. Another story, though. Tractor tires are cheap compared to other machines, too. The hydraulics usually have a way to tap into, even for cheaper or smaller tractors. Some stuff is bought, some is "imagineered", with regards to Disney for instituting a useful word.
> 
> ...



Yes, the small farm tractor is the direction I'm leaning. Next week I'll waste some people's time at the nearby mahindra and Kubota dealerships and figuring out what size tractor I need and what features. Then I'll probably go buy a used one.

Maybe you can help out a stranger tractor salesman and answer me this: how big if a tractor do I need to lift a 1000lb pallet and put it on a 9' high pallet rack?


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## JimDawson (Jun 15, 2018)

strantor said:


> I got a great deal on a forklift through one of my customers. I don't know much about forklifts and I think I might have gotten something unsuitable for my needs. My plans for this thing were to bring heavy stuff to/from the yard and the shop. This forklift won't drive 3ft across dry dirt or grass before it gets "stuck."
> 
> The first and most obvious problem is the tiny and smooth warehouse tires. They suck so bad that I swear I saw them lose traction sitting on dry level pavement with the forklift turned off.
> 
> ...



Yup, that's a warehouse forklift, but looks like a nice one.  Not good at all for off road.  Mine works fine on my hard pack gravel drive, but definitely will not work off of the hard pack gravel, it will get stuck in the loose gravel at the drive edges.  There is a reason I have two forklifts, one for use in the shop and drive, the other is a 4WD all terrain machine.

Nothing you can do to make it work off of the drive.  If you want to run across the grass, you have going to need a forklift designed for that purpose.


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## Shootymacshootface (Jun 15, 2018)

I have 1958 Farmall Cub with a loader. It has assisted me with countless cords of fire wood, lifted many engines that range from a big block Chevy to complete v6 outboard motors. Other tasks are snow removal, and mowing the lawn. I find that if it cannot lift an object, I can push or roll it. I pushed my 3000lb mill across my garage floor. I couldn't imagine life around here without it.


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## rock_breaker (Jun 16, 2018)

Answering your "How big" questions can lead to bad results, but I believe the dealers have that type of specifications. They also sell used equipment. Perhaps that information is on the internet too. A safety margin of 10% popped into my mind, no real basis for that however. I don't believe  my Branson 3510 will  lift 1000 pounds from the ground. One experience I had involved lifting a box of tools out of the rear end of a freight truck but when lowering it to the ground the rear wheels of the tractor came off the ground. If the dealers sell front loaders they will probably tell you the capacity of the bucket (which is a good thing to know), from that you can calculate the approximate lifting capability.  One table in the Caterpillar hand book list dry loose sand at 2400 Lbs. per cubic yard, damp sand at 2850Lbs. per cubic yard and wet sand at 3100 bs. per cubic yard. Wet clay is 2800 Lbs. per cubic yard.  I would use the lessor of these weights to calculate the lifting capacity. Some unknown reason now tells me to use 2100 Lbs. per cubic yard in order to allow for the weight of the lifting frame. If I have confused you PM me.
Have a good day
Ray


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## strantor (Jun 16, 2018)

I am still considering the tractor (especially all of its added utility) but reading the lift capacities on these buckets has me leaning once again toward a forklift. In order to match the 5,000lb lifting capacity of this little forklift, I would need a tractor of probably 90hp, which wouldn't even probably fit in my shop and I would have to sell one of my kids to afford it.

So what do you gents think of this forklift? The seller assures me that it will drive across dry ground, and its appearance does suggest a higher aptitude for off-the-pavement operation than my little warehouse forklift, but it still isn't an "off road forklift."


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## Bob Korves (Jun 16, 2018)

A tractor will not have as much maneuverability in your shop as some of the other options if it is at all tight in there, most of our shops are jam packed with machines and stuff.


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## rgray (Jun 16, 2018)

strantor said:


> So what do you gents think of this forklift? The seller assures me that it will drive across dry ground, and its appearance does suggest a higher aptitude for off-the-pavement operation than my little warehouse forklift, but it still isn't an "off road forklift."



That one will do it. Much better. Still will want to stay off the grass or any unpacked ground.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jun 16, 2018)

I don't have a need to lift that much weight that high so have little insight to the problem. From an imagineering perspective, what comes to mind is linking a forklift mast to the 3 point base. Hydraulics would be standalone, with the pump driven from the PTO. Counterweights hung from the front of the tractor et al. Just look at the way a full time back-hoe is constructed.

What it comes down to is that most machines were primitive early on. Then as specific needs were recognized or developed, the modified machines were fine tuned for each *specific application*. That's the beginning of the industrial forklift, as well as most any highly developed machine. To retrofit such a machine to another application would be much more difficult(and likely more costly) than to start with the primitive machine and figure out how to adapt it to the job. Just look at the overall generalized frame of a forklift, it greatly resembles a tractor. Mast on one end, steering and counterweight on the other. Engine and aux stuff in the middle.

Hence my reference to a farm tractor as a starting point. Yes, it's bigger. But the front bucket concept is not the best answer. It will lift a half ton (actually 600 Kg) to a height of some 16 feet, for my tractor. Small as farm tractors go, some 27 HP, but much larger footprint than the fork lift. But as a starting point, a whole nuther matter..... If one is interested enough to buy (cheap) a forklift that doesn't work as well as thought, what *would* it take to do the job?

Let us start with the mast, which would give the necessary lift. A scrapped out forklift would provide that. Remove the 3 point lifting bars and make a frame to fit between the tractor and the mast. Bolted (or pinned) to the frame, welded to the mast. Hydraulic pump from the PTO, don't try to tap into the average tractor system. An 18 to 20 HP tractor would have sufficient power but wouldn't weigh enough by itself. So, counterweights... But the front axle wouldn't stand up to that. So, beef up the front axle and add some counterweights. Starting to look like a forklift, huh? Actually I used to have a 15 HP machine that would handle that half ton without counterweights. The mast and forks would be a part of that half ton though. No tilt, but on an inside job not really necessary. Outriggers, Feet? Couple of tons there.

That would be my perspective for the problem, anyway. Just imagine what was wanted and build a contraption to do the job. When finished, unbolt the contraption, rehang the 3 point bars, and loan the tractor to a neighbor. Or plow the back 20. Assuming the front 20 was the shop. And dwelling......
Bill Hudson​


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## strantor (Jun 16, 2018)

Bi11Hudson said:


> I don't have a need to lift that much weight that high so have little insight to the problem. From an imagineering perspective, what comes to mind is linking a forklift mast to the 3 point base. Hydraulics would be standalone, with the pump driven from the PTO. Counterweights hung from the front of the tractor et al. Just look at the way a full time back-hoe is constructed.
> 
> What it comes down to is that most machines were primitive early on. Then as specific needs were recognized or developed, the modified machines were fine tuned for each *specific application*. That's the beginning of the industrial forklift, as well as most any highly developed machine. To retrofit such a machine to another application would be much more difficult(and likely more costly) than to start with the primitive machine and figure out how to adapt it to the job. Just look at the overall generalized frame of a forklift, it greatly resembles a tractor. Mast on one end, steering and counterweight on the other. Engine and aux stuff in the middle.
> 
> ...


I can picture everything you're describing and it sounds badass, albeit a little involved. I was originally thinking of something like a pallet stacker attachment that would bolt to the front of my big 60" zero turn mower, turning the mower into a limited capacity forklift. I have most of the stuff to do it, and it would probably suit most of my needs inside the shop, but what I don't have is time. that's why I decided to buy instead of build. I bought badly, and wasted even more time that I can't afford to waste any more. If I were going to buy a tractor and immediately start modifying it, i would probably do something quick & dirty like hang couterweights off the ass end and put higher volume, higher pressure cylinders on the existing bucket, weld plates all over it to beef it up, and just turn it into a more capable lifting machine trying to make the most use of what is already there and the most use of my time.


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 16, 2018)

strantor said:


> I can picture everything you're describing and it sounds badass, albeit a little involved. I was originally thinking of something like a pallet stacker attachment that would bolt to the front of my big 60" zero turn mower, turning the mower into a limited capacity forklift. I have most of the stuff to do it, and it would probably suit most of my needs inside the shop, but what I don't have is time. that's why I decided to buy instead of build. I bought badly, and wasted even more time that I can't afford to waste any more. If I were going to buy a tractor and immediately start modifying it, i would probably do something quick & dirty like hang couterweights off the ass end and put higher volume, higher pressure cylinders on the existing bucket, weld plates all over it to beef it up, and just turn it into a more capable lifting machine trying to make the most use of what is already there and the most use of my time.



Is it possible to just put larger dia. wheels on it that have some tread. will that get you out of trouble?


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 16, 2018)

My go to machine is what we call a dingo over here. a small skid steer machine smaller than a bobcat you don't sit in it, you stand on the back on a small platform, your body weight is part of the counterweight. I hire it from the local machine hire shop. comes with a variety of attachments including fork blades, a bit limited on lift height, only about 6ft. but enough for me. Got it for the weekend for $100 when I picked up my lathe from the freight depot. used it to lift the lathe off the trailer and position it on a subframe I had already made. Worked a treat.


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## strantor (Jun 16, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> Is it possible to just put larger dia. wheels on it that have some tread. will that get you out of trouble?


I don't  think so. The bigger problem as I see it is the differential and (lack of) suspension. it's like when you go to eat at a restaurant and they put at a table where the ground is unlevel or the legs aren't all perfectly the same length, so the table teeters back and forth, only ever having 3 legs on the ground.

As soon as the ground gets unlevel enough for one of those wheels to come off the ground, it's one of the front drive wheels, because all the weight is in the back. That drive wheel comes off the ground and then the diff starts doing what a non-LSD diff does, and spinning the wheel that's up in the air. And when I say "up in the air" I mean like 1/4" off the ground. This thing can literally get "stuck" on pavement if it isn't level enough. A small pothole is the end of the road. I don't see how bigger tires are going to fix that.

P.s. I have tried the old "power brake" trick to "lock" the diff and it does work to a limited extent, but the lift barely has enough power to overcome its own brake, and it makes weird noises and smells.


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 16, 2018)

strantor said:


> I don't  think so. The bigger problem as I see it is the differential and (lack of) suspension. it's like when you go to eat at a restaurant and they put at a table where the ground is unlevel or the legs aren't all perfectly the same length, so the table teeters back and forth, only ever having 3 legs on the ground.
> 
> As soon as the ground gets unlevel enough for one of those wheels to come off the ground, it's one of the front drive wheels, because all the weight is in the back. That drive wheel comes off the ground and then the diff starts doing what a non-LSD diff does, and spinning the wheel that's up in the air. And when I say "up in the air" I mean like 1/4" off the ground. This thing can literally get "stuck" on pavement if it isn't level enough. A small pothole is the end of the road. I don't see how bigger tires are going to fix that.
> 
> P.s. I have tried the old "power brake" trick to "lock" the diff and it does work to a limited extent, but the lift barely has enough power to overcome its own brake, and it makes weird noises and smells.



1. If the bigger wheels will work should be easy enough to lock the diff, or fit an LSD kit to it and if the tyres were a bit soft , aka low pressure would that cope I guess it depends on how rough your ground is and how far you have to go.

2. Someone mentioned converting an old tractor to a forklift, this is done quite a bit over here where contractors have to deliver house bricks and other building materials to building sites that are all chewed up and muddy, etc. 

They get an old tractor and set up a forklift mast (probably second hand) onto the rear of the tractor and attach a suitable hydraulic pump and set of control valves, they work a treat handle really rough ground can lift a few tons and get good height,all depends on the size of the forklift mast you use. 

One trick is the closer you can mount the mast to rear wheels the more you can lift without going overboard on counterweights.
 I've seen some that get real sophisticated and fix it so the seat will swivel around to face the rear and have the fork controls set up there.


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## strantor (Jun 16, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> if the bigger wheels will work should be easy enough to lock the diff, and if the tyres were a bit soft , aka low pressure would that cope I guess it depends on how rough your ground is and how far you have to go.


How do you mean lock the diff? Like as in open it up and weld it? The turn radius on these things is crazy and that's owed in part to the diff. I can't imagine how it would respond to tight turns with a locked diff.

The tires are solid rubber BTW. I don't know if it is possible to put pneumatic tires on it. But if it is possible, I imagine that would make an an appreciable difference. But honestly I'm just disgusted with this lift and I don't feel like it deserves any special attention.


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## rock_breaker (Jun 16, 2018)

Another $0.02 worth. I cannot get my tractor through the doors so all my forlift usage is out side and either pipe rollers or a 1000# furniture mover (4 casters on a low frame) do the machine moving. I like the machine Downunder Bob described if you could find one here. It seems the decision maker is how often the machines must be moved and to where. Good luck
Ray


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## JimDawson (Jun 16, 2018)

strantor said:


> I am still considering the tractor (especially all of its added utility) but reading the lift capacities on these buckets has me leaning once again toward a forklift. In order to match the 5,000lb lifting capacity of this little forklift, I would need a tractor of probably 90hp, which wouldn't even probably fit in my shop and I would have to sell one of my kids to afford it.
> 
> So what do you gents think of this forklift? The seller assures me that it will drive across dry ground, and its appearance does suggest a higher aptitude for off-the-pavement operation than my little warehouse forklift, but it still isn't an "off road forklift."



That one will run around on packed gravel, but don't try to take it in the grass unless the ground is really hard and flat.  To really run off road, you need much bigger tires or the balloon tires that you see on the turf delivery forklifts.

Something like this would be in the ballpark of having some off hardpack capibility


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 17, 2018)

strantor said:


> How do you mean lock the diff? Like as in open it up and weld it? The turn radius on these things is crazy and that's owed in part to the diff. I can't imagine how it would respond to tight turns with a locked diff.
> 
> The tires are solid rubber BTW. I don't know if it is possible to put pneumatic tires on it. But if it is possible, I imagine that would make an an appreciable difference. But honestly I'm just disgusted with this lift and I don't feel like it deserves any special attention.



I agree, a fully locked diff would not be good, but a limited slip kit might be useful, or a remote (air or electric) diff lock might work as well. All the possible solutions really depend on how much you can spend and how much time you have (a) before you need it, (b) to do the mods yourself, (c) what materials are available.

Another thing, is your shop floor hard and flat ie. concrete? if so you could buy or make a set of machine skates for moving stuff around in the shop. That is my plan.


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 17, 2018)

JimDawson said:


> That one will run around on packed gravel, but don't try to take it in the grass unless the ground is really hard and flat.  To really run off road, you need much bigger tires or the balloon tires that you see on the turf delivery forklifts.
> 
> Something like this would be in the ballpark of having some off hardpack capibility
> 
> At the end of the day you are the only one who can decide. It looks like a fairly clean machine, but only you know how rough your ground is, and how often you have to use it. If the price is right, and it will do what you want go for it.


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## strantor (Jun 18, 2018)

I replied earlier about a 4WD forklift I was going to look at. Turns out I posted that reply in the wrong thread. It's over here if you're interested. 

I drove 1hr:45min this morning to see that forklift and it was an absolute turd. The main mast cylinder was bent and sheared off from the base, but somehow, still managed to lift the mast without falling out the front of the machine, which to the seller, meant it "worked fine." It had no brakes at all. I almost crashed it into my own truck, and would have, had I not thrown it from reverse into forward while it was still rolling back. It was NOT 4WD. I asked the seller to look under the back end (pic attached) and explain to me how the rear wheels were powered. He hummed and hawed for a few minutes before throwing up his hands and saying "well I don't know everything mechanically about these units, but I know it's 4WD." The ad said it was super clean, and it did look super clean from The pictures. That's because they were low res pictures of a botched rattle can job. ALL The hoses were WAAY their life span, with 100% exposed steel braid on most of them, and all of them cracked to the point it was a miracle they even held fluid. The dude had actually spray painted the hoses black to make them look "new." The only honest thing in the ad was that the machine ran, and it did seem to run well. Oh, and the counterweight was hanging at an odd angle which made me question if it was even fastened to the machine. And he had just "assumed" it would fit through a 7' door, hadn't actually measured it, and it was about a foot too tall.

I left there more desperate than ever. I headed back toward the Mahindra dealership near my home with my mind 75% made up that I was leaving there with a tractor. I stopped at a couple machinery sales places I saw along the route to inquire about rough terrain forklifts, which to no surprise, are unicorns. At the last machinery dealer 2mi before the mahindra dealership, they sell LS Tractors. I never heard of them. I looked at an XR4140H tractor and was quite impressed, given my assumption they were a knockoff brand. It seemed very robust and well made. I just looked at it, got a price and a spec sheet, and proceeded to Mahindra where I test drove several tractors. The Mahindra tractors all seemed "OK" but they cost more than the LS tractor and/or had less features for the same price point.

So I went to burger king and sat in the parking lot for a couple of hours researching on my phone and find that (according to "experts" in tractor forums), LS is actually not a knockoff brand; they have been making tractors for years which sold under different names (incl. Massey Ferguson) and are just now in the last few years starting to try to break out and sell directly under their own name. Most of the reviews I read were happy customers and folks didn't have much negative to say about them. So I drove back to the LS tractor place and test drove the tractor. Very impressed. It had nearly 50% more lifting capacity on the front loader than Mahindra and kubota, and it's obvious from the construction that the loader is a much more robust design than the other two. It was easier to drive (being HST) than the shuttle shift and manual units I was comparing at the same price point. The Mahindra did have a better turning radius though, which is a big deal trying to maneuver in my small shop, but the ease of transition for forward to reverse cancels that out (almost) in my mind.

So I bought it. Should take delivery in the morning. This is the most expensive "impulse" purchase I have ever made; costing more than any vehicle I've ever purchased. but I need something, and I need it yesterday. I hope I will not regret it. But I don't know if it's possible to regret owning a tractor. They're so damn useful, for everything.


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 18, 2018)

Looks like a nice bit of gear, I'm sure you'll find other uses for it. And can I place small bet that you'll have modified it within a year.


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## strantor (Jun 18, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> And can I place small bet that you'll have modified it within a year.


I'm seeing two possibilities: 
1. The previously suggested rear-mount cannibalized forklift mast if I can find one.
2. A modification the front end loader to make it like a 4-link rear suspension. This will allow the front end loader to function pretty much as intended, but keep the load a little bit closer to the tractor, and lift automatically keeping the pallet forks level without need to coordinate bucket tilt and lift while raising/lowering a pallet. The existing bucket tilt cylinders could be repurposed as a tilt "trim."

I need to ask the dealer in the morning what all voids the warranty. Since the loader and the tractor are two separate pieces of gear, I assume they have two separate warranties. But I need to confirm. I don't care about voiding the loader warranty as it seems pretty bullet proof and I doubt there's anything that could go wrong or become damaged that I would need warranty work for.


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## rock_breaker (Jun 19, 2018)

Not trying to rain on your parade but is that lifting capacity for the loader front or the 3 point hitch? That is a good looking machine. The gears are turning already in the think tank.  Some of the guys around here have mounted the fork lift mast on the 3 point hitch which lets them carry extra bales of hay.  My loader front can be detached also the hydraulic lines which then can be used for a different attachments. The Otter Company near Lenora, Kansas use their big tractor hydraulic system on a large press to put the curve in the bulldozer blades they manufacture.  Let us know how you meet your goals.
Have a good day
Ray


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## strantor (Jun 19, 2018)

rock_breaker said:


> Not trying to rain on your parade but is that lifting capacity for the loader front or the 3 point hitch?


That's a very valid question and you're right for asking it. I did make that mistake yesterday in the parking lot while comparing spec sheets. For first hour I was comparing the wrong number and I thought that Mahindra was pretty well matched to LS. I was comparing the Mahindra 3pt hitch lift capacity to the LS bucket loader capacity. The LS is rated 2,700lbs for both 3pt hitch and front end loader. Spec excerpt attached.

I read some owner feedback about the supposedly "overrated" front end loader capacity of the LS. Multiple owners did pallet lift tests and weren't able to lift more than a 2,000lb pallet. But that seems about right to me. The rating is from the pivot pin, and a center-loaded pallet test is testing 24+" forward of the pivot pin. The other manufacturers are also rated from the pivot pin. I imagine if you had a mahindra rated 2,000lb front end lift, it wouldn't lift more than 1,500lb pallet.

This is still way less than I was hoping for. But if there's one thing I've learned through all this, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Except maybe with a small rough terrain forklift, which is apparently what Santa's elves use to transport pixy dust to Neverland.



rock_breaker said:


> That is a good looking machine. The gears are turning already in the think tank.  Some of the guys around here have mounted the fork lift mast on the 3 point hitch which lets them carry extra bales of hay.  My loader front can be detached also the hydraulic lines which then can be used for a different attachments. The Otter Company near Lenora, Kansas use their big tractor hydraulic system on a large press to put the curve in the bulldozer blades they manufacture.  Let us know how you meet your goals.
> Have a good day
> Ray


Thank you. I will post here any modifications I make. But it might take me a while to muster the cojones to start cutting and welding on a $24k machine that I just bought brand new. I don't know; I'm in uncharted territory. I've never bought any kind of brand new wheeled apparatus and I've never spent this much money on a single purchase except my house.


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## dlane (Jun 19, 2018)

I have a smaller 4wd diesel tractor 20hp w/loader , if I want to pick up heavy things I need the brush hog on the back so the back wheels don’t come off the ground  because that’s the breaking wheels . But that makes the tractor to long to get into tight places , I also have a box blade with rippers but it isn’t heavy enough to keep the back wheels on ground.
Was thinking some day I’ll make a 3pt concrete bucket for rear weight. 
With that said I love my little tractor it has saved my butt several times when I lived in AR .
Are you getting any implements for the 3pt ?.


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## strantor (Jun 19, 2018)

dlane said:


> Are you getting any implements for the 3pt ?.


Not immediately. I want a tiller, maybe a blade, maybe an auger. But I won't be spending any more in this direction for a while. One implement that I plan to _make_ pretty soon, is the concrete box ballast you described.


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## brino (Jun 19, 2018)

@strantor,

Congratulations, that is a great looking tractor.
I think you made a wise decision.

-brino


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## vocatexas (Jun 19, 2018)

In the late '60s and early '70s Ford made an industrial forklift from a farm tractor. It was a Ford 5000 with the seat mounted backwards and the steering assembly moved to the back of the tractor, making it the front. They took a fairly large forklift mast and mounted it where the 3 point lift would mount. A friend of mine still has one of these. It will lift a 10,000 lb. 40 foot sea container. It does have weights on the front end weight bracket and also front wheel hub weights. It would not be hard to build an attachment similar to this for your new tractor. It should be able to lift around 5,000 lbs without too much effort.

This one is a Case, but it's the same idea:

http://twentywheels.com/imgs/a/b/a/...ks_fork_lift_bob_cat_loader_tractor_8_lgw.jpg


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## strantor (Jun 20, 2018)

vocatexas said:


> In the late '60s and early '70s Ford made an industrial forklift from a farm tractor. It was a Ford 5000 with the seat mounted backwards and the steering assembly moved to the back of the tractor, making it the front. They took a fairly large forklift mast and mounted it where the 3 point lift would mount. A friend of mine still has one of these. It will lift a 10,000 lb. 40 foot sea container. It does have weights on the front end weight bracket and also front wheel hub weights. It would not be hard to build an attachment similar to this for your new tractor. It should be able to lift around 5,000 lbs without too much effort.
> 
> This one is a Case, but it's the same idea:
> 
> http://twentywheels.com/imgs/a/b/a/...ks_fork_lift_bob_cat_loader_tractor_8_lgw.jpg



Yes, that's the "unicorn" I've been referring to. They call it a "rough terrain forklift." There are a few for sale locally and two or more of the following applies to all of them:
1. Price really high
2. In really rough shape, needs a lot of work
3. two-stage mast too tall to enter shop, and/or lift pallets inside shop without hitting ceiling
4. seller will not respond to calls/text/emails

After driving this tractor around my property with the forks attachment on the front end loader, doing some pallet moving/stacking exercises in the yard, and staring at the construction of the front end loader for a few hours total, I've reached the following conclusion(s): 
1. I believe I can indeed modify this front end loader to get the forks in closer to the tractor, shortening the leverage distance and increasing the lifting capacity, however:
...a. that will decrease lifting height
...b. it will not be a simple modification and I don't yet have the CNC plasma table to make the parts I need
...c. the tractor is a lot longer when you're on top of it trying to move pallets, than when you're on the ground looking at it. It is very hard to be precise in stacking and moving the pallets from the front.
...d. It is very hard to see what you're doing when moving pallets from the front. Especially when the pallet is at ground level. The whole front of the tractor is in your line of sight; the hood, the grille guard, the front end loader, and the forklift attachment itself.
2. The forklift mast mounted to the 3-pt would most likely be a much better solution, because:
...a. It puts the whole machine into more of a forklift-type configuration, with the steering wheels far from the load and the pivot point closer to the load.
...b. It enables the use of a 3-stage mast which is almost a requirement for getting into the shop and lifting without punching holes in the ceiling.
...c. you can mount wheels under the mast to help take the load, rather than the tractor holding all the weight, enabling the "tractor-lift" to lift much more than the 2,700 lbs the 3-pt hitch is rated for.
...d. It (should) offer greatly improved line of sight to the pallet
...e. It will be able to lift much higher than the front-end loader

I'm looking around for forklift mast for sale locally. No hits yet on just a mast, but I have found several junk forklifts for sale under $2,000. I've decided to go in that direction in the near future, but not right now. No more rushing into things that cost money for a while. I will be patient and wait for just the right thing to pop up for just the right price, and then make my move. I'm hoping to find a 5,000lb or higher mast for $500 or less.


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## vocatexas (Jun 20, 2018)

Just an idea here...have you thought about building an attachment using the forklift mast in place of your three point arms? They just pin on. You could build the mast to mount using the two pivot points under the axle housing and the center link. That would eliminate the three point arms, which would be the weak link on a tractor that size.

I'm about 250 miles west of you, near Brady. I saw a couple of old forklifts sitting somewhere recently. If I was to run across any in this area, is it too far for you?


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## strantor (Jun 21, 2018)

vocatexas said:


> Just an idea here...have you thought about building an attachment using the forklift mast in place of your three point arms? They just pin on. You could build the mast to mount using the two pivot points under the axle housing and the center link. That would eliminate the three point arms, which would be the weak link on a tractor that size.
> 
> I'm about 250 miles west of you, near Brady. I saw a couple of old forklifts sitting somewhere recently. If I was to run across any in this area, is it too far for you?



Yes I did consider not using the 3-pt and I agree that would make it a stronger setup. But if I do that then I lose the ability to tilt (I think). So what I'm currently planning is to have the weight of the mast and the load sitting on a separate set of wheels (probably wheels off the same forklift) and the tractor only serves to keep it pointed toward the sky, and the 3pt is used to tilt the mast. See pics attached. I think this would make the setup safer and easier on the tractor. Tradeoff would probably be reduction in turning radius (or brute force shoving those aux wheels sideways in a tight turn).

Fine print: I pulled this pictures from the web yesterday for my own reference; I didn't intend to re-share, so I didn't pay attention where they came from. I would give credit if I knew where it was due.


Brady TX is 308 miles from me. I would drive a 600mi round trip for a free mast, but if it costs anything at all, I would prefer to stay more local. I know a guy who finds stuff like this and he tells he has a lead on a Harvey flooded forklift he would sell me for $400 (which probably means he's getting it for free, or being paid to haul it off) so I would probably go for that. I appreciate the offer!


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## f350ca (Jun 21, 2018)

Nice tractor. I use forks on my loader a lot. Your right, visibility is POOR. Modifying the loader to lift more might put too much load on the front axle. They no doubt design the loader around the axle capacity.
I've been wanting to build a forklift arrangement for the rear of my tractor too. Haven't come across a resonable priced mast yet. I'd be concerned trying to mount it on the 3 pt hitch. They're designed to withstand the pull of the tractor which really isn't that much. I built a backhoe for mine with a sub frame that mounts to brackets under the rear axle and extends forward to the loader frame. I'd do the same if I built a fork lift. I've seen pictures of 3 pt hitch mounded back hoes where the tractor castings were ripped out where the 3 point hitch mounted.  They aren't designed to take the load a fork lift of the size your considering.

Greg


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 21, 2018)

f350ca said:


> Nice tractor. I use forks on my loader a lot. Your right, visibility is POOR. Modifying the loader to lift more might put too much load on the front axle. They no doubt design the loader around the axle capacity.
> I've been wanting to build a forklift arrangement for the rear of my tractor too. Haven't come across a resonable priced mast yet. I'd be concerned trying to mount it on the 3 pt hitch. They're designed to withstand the pull of the tractor which really isn't that much. I built a backhoe for mine with a sub frame that mounts to brackets under the rear axle and extends forward to the loader frame. I'd do the same if I built a fork lift. I've seen pictures of 3 pt hitch mounded back hoes where the tractor castings were ripped out where the 3 point hitch mounted.  They aren't designed to take the load a fork lift of the size your considering.
> 
> Greg


Exactly, the 3 point system is not designed for the load of a fork lift . You need to make a frame that attaches rigidly to the rear axle, then attach the mast to this frame, arranging the mast to pivot at this point you could use the 3 point to operate the mast tilt, maybe 10 deg forward and back. You will need a separate hyd system for the mast lifting cylinder(s). A pump attached to the PTO with it's own oil supply and valves, you could also use this system with dedicated cylinders for mast tilt. The rear axle can carry a lot of weight.  A lot of tractor axles have a large square section on each side with 4 decent sized bolt holes, ideal attaching the mast frame. arrange the seat to swivel around so you can see what you are doing.


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## GoceKU (Jun 21, 2018)

I've dealt with the same issue, and had some success, fitting bigger solid tires on the front, drive tires makes big difference, i've removed the guards and cut some metal to make room and fitted the biggest tires i could fit, had to cut and weld in new centers in the rims, the forklift in your pictures had bigger tires they are worn down, if you have the time and can source used solid tires cheap may be worth modifying, i can't keep a forklift for me, i buy a broken, fix it up and just as i start to use it, some one makes me an offer too good to pass.


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## strantor (Jun 28, 2018)

I said I wasn't going to spend any more money for a while but I lied. I bought that $400 Harvey flooded forklift.


I paid another $400 to have it transported to my place 70mi away.


On the way home I had a bright idea; have the wrecker move my CNC mill from my garage into the workshop. When I had it delivered about a year ago, it had just rained and the ground was too soft, so the driver wasn't able to put it in my shop. It's been cramped up in my garage this whole time. He took a shine to some rolling office chairs in my garage, so we made a deal; $20 and two rolling chairs to move the mill. 
	

		
			
		

		
	










So now I have a mast, plus a bunch of other goodies (if they're any good): hydraulic pump, propane engine, lots of valves and hoses, etc. I may even try to see if I can resuscitate the forklift. I was told they didn't even try to fix it; it got flooded so they left it where it sat until now. That doesn't jive with the fact the engine cover is removed, but whatever, can't complain for $400.


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 28, 2018)

Probably lifted the lid took one look and said nah, insurance claim. The engine is probably full of water and beyond help. but the hydraulics should be all good hopefully still full of oil.

Is it off road capable if so just throw a good second hand motor in there, otherwise take the parts you need for a full conversion on the tractor. Win, win.


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## strantor (Jun 28, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> Probably lifted the lid took one look and said nah, insurance claim.


Ha! Probably so.



Downunder Bob said:


> The engine is probably full of water and beyond help. but the hydraulics should be all good hopefully still full of oil.


This is what I expect, but I'm still holding out hope for the engine. I've been waiting for a small engine to come around, that I can use to build a whole-home generator. I have 2007 Ford Focus that was flooded in Harvey, transmission sat full to the top with flood water for 25 days before I got around to doing anything with it. I flushed the tranny twice and miraculously the damn thing still runs and drives great. I've been waiting for that tranny to give up the ghost so I can repurpose the engine, but the stubborn bastard doesn't look like it's willing to accept that fate. So this forklift engine would be a fine substitute, especially considering it already runs on propane so I wouldn't have to do any conversion.

The forklift transmission is 100% confirmed full of water. Engine oil is water-free, but that's not 100% conclusive. When the wrecker started the forklift up the incline on the truck, hydraulic oil started pouring out the breather on the top of the reservoir. I take this to mean that the reservoir is over-filled (with water, likely). But even if the reservoir is full of water, assuming they were unable to get the engine to turn over, it should not have been pumped out into any of the circuits, and hopefully all the valves, hoses, and cylinders are still pristine inside.

A friend of mine just came over; a friend with more mechanical clout than I have, and he said that if there's water in the tranny, then there's water in the hydraulics, as they share the same oil. I can't agree with him though at this point, because since he left I went and traced out all the hoses, and I don't see anywhere that the two systems merge.



Downunder Bob said:


> Is it off road capable if so just throw a good second hand motor in there, otherwise take the parts you need for a full conversion on the tractor. Win, win.


No, this is another warehouse forklift.


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## JimDawson (Jun 28, 2018)

strantor said:


> I can't agree with him though at this point, because since he left I went and traced out all the hoses, and I don't see anywhere that the two systems merge.



I agree, pretty sure they're separate systems.  Both of mine are separate, and so were the last two I worked on.


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## GoceKU (Jun 29, 2018)

Most of the forklifts are driven by hydraulic motors, draining the whole hydraulic system and changing the filters is a must, don't evan try to start it because you'll end up with mayonnaise in the hydraulic system, water is heavier than oil and sits on the bottom, if there is no oxygen there shouldn't be any rust.


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