# Tap & Die set



## Lone Watie (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm not sure if this goes here, but does anyone have any experience with this tap & die set from Irwin tools:  http://www.amazon.com/Irwin-26377-M...D4KW/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1328891061&sr=8-6

I'm pretty sure they're made in the USA. Does it seem like a reasonable set?


----------



## bobbyjim (Feb 10, 2012)

I looked at this set and I would not buy it. They don't list were there made for one thing. And I know you willn't get the quality of the older sets. I have a set of Henry L. Hanson tap and dies I bought new in the middle '70's and would say that this is most likely the same company. Maybe a son or brother changed the first name. 

Anyway the 41 piece set I have was sold by MAC Tools. Came in a MAC Box but when you opened it the label inside said Hanson Tools, Worcester, Ma. USA. MAC Tools thought it was good enough to put there name on it and sell in the '70's and it has worked great for me in body/auto/motorcycle shop and now retired for the passed 38 or so years. Not one broken piece and no complaints. 

I also have a Craftsman fractional set and a Craftsman metric set I bought in the middle '70's and have never had a problem with. 

What you have in the set your looking at on Amazon is a metric set and fractional set combined. You can find these sets at flea markets or yard sales or there on ebay. Right now theres 2 41 piece sets on ebay, one metric with bids and one fractional with no bids starting a $50.00 plus shipping. 

For $243.65 I would either buy off ebay or spend a little time at flea markets or yards sales or try C/List.


----------



## Tom Griffin (Feb 10, 2012)

Carbon steel taps like those are generally cheap machine cut hand taps. Look for high speed steel machine taps instead. You'll get better quality taps that are ground, will cut a cleaner thread and will be MUCH less apt to break. I also wouldn't consider buying that set because you'll never use that many different sizes. Get an assortment of good quality high speed steel two flute spiral point taps in common sizes like fine thread #4, #6, #8, #10 and coarse and fine threads in 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" and 1/2". McMaster Carr carries only good quality taps and they average around $6 each. You'll wish you got the best the first time you break a cheap tap in a part you've spent hours or days working on. 

Dies are not near as critical because you won't be using them near as much as taps and they won't scrap your part if they fail. You can find decent sets at places like Enco, Travers or MSC. Cheap dies are fine but always but get the best quality taps possible.

Tom


----------



## Rbeckett (Feb 10, 2012)

Oh yeah, Tom hit the head on the head on that one.  If you break a cheap tap you will kick yourself everytime you have to tap a hole.  I have the big craftsman set that was on sale a few years back for around a hundred bucks and it has been worth every penny several times over.  This is one tool not to try and save too much on,  buy the best you can afford so you wont have to do it again later and be angry when you do it.  I was ****ed when I had the same issue.....
Bob


----------



## bobbyjim (Feb 10, 2012)

There's hardly a yard sale or flea market were you can't find quality old HSS taps and dies. Seems every time I buy an old Kennedy tool box full of old tools (I have 3 that cost $10.00 ea.) there always taps and dies in them. Make yourself a list and hit a good flea market were lots of tools are sold. We have one locally that's open once a week and it's full of tool venders and just evey day folks selling there old tools. I see them all the time, 25 cents to a dollar ea.

Here is an older set on ebay right now. I have this same set bought around '75 or so. As said came under the MAC name and I have used hard and never broke thing. I don't know if the newer sets are any good but the older sets are.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/13064300726...62&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT&vxp=mtr

Plus while your there get all the other tools that I think you are probley looking for.


----------



## randyjaco (Feb 10, 2012)

It is not a bad set, but it is far from being a bargain. I'd keep looking for a better deal.

Randy


----------



## bobbyjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Didn't say it was a bargin. But I have the same 41 piece set I bought in the mid '70's and have put threw the ringer. Not one broken piece in all the years. I am sure if you scouted the flea markets and yards sales you might find the same for $35.00 or so. But I wouldn't sell my set for the asking ebay price of $50.00 & shipping.  





randyjaco said:


> It is not a bad set, but it is far from being a bargain. I'd keep looking for a better deal.
> 
> Randy


----------



## Lone Watie (Feb 11, 2012)

I saw that the dies were carbon steel, as well, which concerned me in my limited knowledge of metals (which is expanding). I do have a set of Craftsman taps & dies which I bought couple years ago. They weren't cheap price wise. My concern with those was that they were only for cleaning up existing, not fresh threading. Also, they are hex head dies, not expandable round ones. They worked just fine when I threaded a piece of thread rod for a shift rod for my motorcycle. I'm just planning ahead in the event they start breaking, and was looking around. 

The Irwins are made in the USA, I'm assuming, as another listed set on amazon is made in the USA by Irwin, which is slightly less expensive due to less pieces. I'll pass on this one for now. There's a better set on another site which are expandable and all are the correct material. 

Thanks for all the advice and replies.


----------



## george wilson (Feb 11, 2012)

It isn't just CARBON steel that makes taps and dies from them undesirable. It's that there are different grades of carbon steel,and the Asian ones are very likely made of the CHEAPEST grade of carbon steel. 

I have hundreds of good,old USA taps,many of which are carbon steel,and they are fine. Not as durable as HSS. Carbon taps used to be recommended by some professionals because if you break one off,they are easier to get out. You can heat the part to remove their temper,use alum to dissolve them,etc.. Break off a HSS tap,and you'd better have a milling machine with carbide end mills to eat them out(which is what I most often do). I was always milling out broken off taps for other craftsmen when I was Master Toolmaker in Colonial Williamsburg.

Carbon steel comes in several varieties: Starting with 1050,which means there is .050% carbon in it,just BARELY enough to harden,but POOR durability and edge retention. Then,there is 1070,1080,and the best is 1095,with .95% carbon. And who knows what cheap crud the Chinese make up for their own products. Good,old USA taps and dies in carbon steel will be the 1095 variety.

That said,I do prefer the HSS taps,because they do last longer,and I have the means to mill them out. I also have a set of those "tap extractors",with the little fingers that stick down,and slide into the flutes of broken off taps. I got them to work ONCE. Whether you can mechanically extract a broken off tap depends upon WHAT odd chip of metal,or broken piece of tap,which you cannot see,is jamming the tap in the hole. Often those little bits of metal are beyond the strength of the tap extractor's fingers,and you'll break off the extractor's fingers trying to get the tap to turn.

That sharp,little "POP" you hear when you reverse a tap in a hole,is because the little tips of the taps are pressure welding themselves into the hole. That pressure weld can be too much to mechanically remove the broken tap.

Then,there is the problem that taps come in 2,3,and 4 flute configurations in the smaller sizes,at least. You need to have an extractor that matches the tap. You need quite a few of those things to meet all possibilities.

If you are REAL lucky,you might come across one of those little EDM machines that eat away taps. I could have gotten one once,but it took up a 2' square of space,and I am too crowded to devote that much space to the infrequent removal of taps. I just mill them out anyway.


----------



## Lone Watie (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks for the further clarification on this. Do you think my craftsman set is for rethreading or is it suitable for new threads? I haven't looked at it closely to see what materials they're made from, which I'll do later this morning. If it's suitable for new threads, do you have any ideas for making a die holder for the hex shape of the dies? I saw, I think here on this forum, to use a socket of the correct size to hold the die in place, tap a set screw hole in there, and attach the socket somehow to a 2MT arbor. Am I on the right track? Thanks again.


----------



## ekrteam (Feb 13, 2012)

Do yourself a big favor and buy yourself HSS taps.  No comparison in quality versus the carbon steel.  Better results with less effort.


----------



## Tenn (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm in favor of the HSS taps and had this advise from a machinist friend;  DON'T buy a set because you are paying for taps and dies you'll never use.
Instead buy good quality taps / dies in the size you need. Far less money and less space in the toolbox plus generally you can afford a better tap / die that way.
FWIW.


----------



## 8ntsane (Feb 20, 2012)

Yes, I do believe that the sets have many sizes that never get used. I bought my taps and dies in sets, and full sets seem to never get all used. It does make more sense to buy quality , and only what you need. I have one set that is been gooing for yrs. I have another set I bought on sale, and have broken most of the ones I used. Not a good deal in the long run. 

Paul


----------



## pdentrem (Feb 20, 2012)

Here is a little broken tap tip. 

Break a tap in a hole, don't have a tap extractor, or it does not work, which is par for the course. You can use a diamond impregnated grinding burr in a Dremel etc. Use either oil or water to lube the burr and grind the tap in half to pick out the pieces or in smaller sizes just grind it out until it is gone. I bought a set of the diamond burr for about 20 and used this method at least 10 times to date. On a 3/8 tap it took about an hour but on a 10x32 it as maybe 20 minutes.


----------

