# Why Change What Works?



## HMF (May 4, 2016)

I know many people say to me, why fix what isn't broke?

The reason is that I am forever trying to improve this place, and make it more interesting and hospitable for more people.  If I'm wrong, at least my intentions are good.

There are some new forums, and they are moved into alphabetical order.
The classifieds, well, they are at the top. I lowered the fees for regular users, 1% for site supporters and 2% for active members who haven't made a donation. Hopefully, ya'all feel that is tolerable, if not fair.

The extra forums- I checked our data, and people are coming here and leaving soon. It seems we are not hitting enough topics that interest them. I am trying to change that a bit.

So there you have it. Right, wrong, my heart is in the right place anyway.


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## dlane (May 4, 2016)

Nothing is perfect in today's world , thank you for trying


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## tweinke (May 4, 2016)




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## mcostello (May 4, 2016)

Hang in there, We will quit b****ing soon.


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## fretsman (May 4, 2016)

Nels, I don't post a lot, but I see the work you put in here so I felt it was time to let you I know I appreciate what you're doing here. I know it must be time consuming, even just the thought you put in during the day. 

Thank you for what you do.....it is appreciated.


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## Terrywerm (May 4, 2016)

I guess this is one of those things where every person would do it a bit differently from the next guy, thus the differences of opinion. Nothing wrong with that, as that is what makes us individuals. If each one of us was the same the world would be a boring place. I will also echo the comments of others, and say 'Thank You' for all that you do, it is a big job and the work required behind the scenes is not always evident.

As for people coming here and leaving soon, I think most folks join looking for a specific thing. One new member even said so in his introduction, indicating that he was here for the downloads. Once they have what they are looking for they are gone. Most are not looking for a sense of community or a sense of belonging. No, instead they are looking for owner's manuals, tidbits of advice, etc. Once they have it, they move on to other things.


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## Whyemier (May 4, 2016)

Works for me Nels


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## kvt (May 4, 2016)

+1 on thanks for all you do.   And agree with Terry   many of the ones that just show up and leave are looking for something and once they have it they leave.   I'll admit that I do that to other sites,  As they are not as friendly as this one.  I have been here for just over a year I think,   I may not be able to help a lot but I try to help where I can, and see all the work you and the rest of the staff put in.   Thanks to you all.   I have been able to do some things that I don't think I would have tried otherwise.    And I have gotten back into something after over 30 years away from it.  

Ken


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## Eddyde (May 4, 2016)

One thing I would look into is improving the search function, there is a wealth of info already archived here. however when I search for specific topics they are hard to find. Eg, search "DRO" you will get a message the search is "too short or too common"


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## FOMOGO (May 4, 2016)

Not an easy job, and thanks for taking it on. Mike


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## 51cub (May 5, 2016)

I appreciate everything you do, even when I'm not saying it enough. As for changes, I'm so lost on a computer that I wouldn't know anything changed if I don't see something that says so. Thanks for everything !!


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## wrmiller (May 5, 2016)

Hey Nels,

The idea of 'Perfect' is yet another human construct that exists nowhere else in the known universe except in our heads. Like 'love', or 'fair'. Once you have things arranged such that 80% or so of the folks that hang out here on a regular basis are happy, call it good. (just my opinion) 

And just out of curiosity, why do the folks in charge think we need more membership? More isn't better, it's just more. Unless the numbers justify more advertising revenue?

A lousy example, but if your company runs the most efficiently with 1000 people, it will fall apart with 10,000. Too many opinions, distractions, personalities, dead weights, etc., etc.. Those who come here for more than "just the downloads" are the ones I would like to see stick around.

Just a different viewpoint.


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## timvercoe (May 6, 2016)

I gota jump in here, I am a member of another site.  I spend a lot of time there, there as apposed to here.  There is so much information here, I get overwhelmed and the things that interest me, it seems this site is slightly off topic (?).  Having said that I think it really is just the volume of information.  This is a great site.  Nels, you do a great job of providing a place for "us guys" to connect with what we love.  I love the easy and accepting nature of the site and the folks that post.  I've also have to agree with wrmiller, we don't want to encourage people who don't want to be here to stay, let em' take what they want and leave the rest behind for us to enjoy....... a hearty THANK YOU for all that you do.  

Tim


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## ELHEAD (May 6, 2016)

You Sir are the Captain of this ship. You have some crew members assisting you, some are passengers enjoying the ride, others are not going to enjoy the trip no matter where the ship goes.
Keep up the good work, keep this ship on the course as you think best.
Dave


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## HMF (May 6, 2016)

timvercoe said:


> I gota jump in here, I am a member of another site.  I spend a lot of time there, there as apposed to here.  There is so much information here, I get overwhelmed and the things that interest me, it seems this site is slightly off topic (?).  Having said that I think it really is just the volume of information.  This is a great site.  Nels, you do a great job of providing a place for "us guys" to connect with what we love.  I love the easy and accepting nature of the site and the folks that post.  I've also have to agree with wrmiller, we don't want to encourage people who don't want to be here to stay, let em' take what they want and leave the rest behind for us to enjoy....... a hearty THANK YOU for all that you do.
> 
> Tim



Tim,

Thanks for your comments...

I won't ask what the other forum is, but I appreciate your giving us a try. Everyone IS welcome here.

We don't want to overwhelm anyone here, but we want to give people the information they are looking for.
We want to do this in a way that doesn't insult them, or make them feel inferior because they are new to this.
A lot of this attitude comes from my experience- I created this place originally as an information base for when/if I ever get my act together and get my shop running.
(Looks like that will FINALLY be happening soon!)
I also want to help people who, like me, are anxious to learn without being beaten up, or made to feel bad about themselves.

So, I apologize for the sheer volume, but I am trying to load it in a way that makes it easier to find at least.

Do you suggest more discussions, like this one, that are off-topic, yet bond people together?


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## HMF (May 6, 2016)

Eddyde said:


> One thing I would look into is improving the search function, there is a wealth of info already archived here. however when I search for specific topics they are hard to find. Eg, search "DRO" you will get a message the search is "too short or too common"



I have tried. At the very bottom left, you will see a box for "Google Custom Search".  It's not obvious enough, I know that. I don't know how to move it up.

Part of the problem is, I am not a technical/web person. I was forced into the role by necessity, and I know just enough to keep this place going.
I went to the XenForo site, tried to get help, and I was insulted there by one of their developers. When I responded, you can guess what happened. LOL
Help there is very limited.  XenForo is a decent forum software, better than VBulletin, but the support is sorely lacking due to the brash attitudes of its coders.
If you need custom coders, you risk having someone there who advertises take your money and provide nothing.
They just threw one guy off who took a bunch of crowdfunding money and never did the project he was paid for.
It is very hard to get help.

We do need a technical person here, and that is something I will look into.


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## Mark in Indiana (May 6, 2016)

Nels,
I vote thimbs up on how you've organized this site.


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## HMF (May 6, 2016)

Mark in Indiana said:


> Nels,
> I vote thimbs up on how you've organized this site.



Thanks Mark.

I used to ask the members their opinions,  so as to do things more democratically,  but there were many differing opinions that were impossible to synthesize. So I just do research,  and do what I think is right.


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## JimDawson (May 6, 2016)

Nels said:


> Do you suggest more discussions, like this one, that are off-topic, yet bond people together?



It's the off-topic discussions and social interaction that make this site interesting.  If it were all dry technical information, it would be boring.  Sometimes it nice to pull up a chair around the 'ol wood stove and just have a bull session.


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## wrmiller (May 6, 2016)

I agree with Jim. The off-topic comments and discussions are part of the bonding/social interaction that makes some forums more fun than others. And then there's the real nitty-gritty tech stuff. On some sites, the really juicy tech tidbits are arranged in 'stickies' at the top of a particular forum so that searching for a particular topic (and the answers to said) are more easily accessed without having to know how to exactly format a search query. Maybe some of the mods could be given the ability to pull the tech tidbits out of the various threads and make them available at the top of the forum. 

I for one, enjoy the camaraderie here. If I wanted tech details only, I'd buy a book...


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 6, 2016)

I don't mind the reorganisation, I just find it takes time to adapt to where things have moved to. I'm a creature of habit I guess! I did prefer the previous version, but that might just be because I knew where everything was.

Personally I think the move to "paid" classifieds was a mistake. I can understand the reasons why and I have no right to criticise, as I haven't donated to this site, but I think it's counterproductive for the limited amount of money it might bring in. Now the only other place that has a classifieds forum is PM and that's much more production oriented, although occasional HSM deals do come up if you're quick.


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## wrmiller (May 6, 2016)

Nels said:


> Thanks Mark.
> I used to ask the members their opinions,  so as to do things more democratically,  but there were many differing opinions that were impossible to synthesize. So I just do research,  and do what I think is right.



We used to call this 'consensus management' in Silicon Valley during the heydays of the '90s. We quickly found out that it didn't work worth a damn.


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## mmcmdl (May 6, 2016)

Change is inevitable . Although I cannot provide input on the newer equipment being offered these days , the objectives remain the same . To make things , to restore old iron , to improve something . We all have these same interests . This site remains entertaining and informative to me which keeps me coming back and continues to be my site of choice along with the cub cadet site . For the members on here which have been to my home , they know what I do and enjoy doing . I've met some new friends on here as well . The staff and administration of Hobby do a great job keeping this place going . It's work , and I myself appreciate the effort put forth . Dave


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## HMF (May 6, 2016)

mattthemuppet said:


> Personally I think the move to "paid" classifieds was a mistake. I can understand the reasons why and I have no right to criticise, as I haven't donated to this site, but I think it's counterproductive for the limited amount of money it might bring in. Now the only other place that has a classifieds forum is PM and that's much more production oriented, although occasional HSM deals do come up if you're quick.



The main purpose of paid classifieds was not revenue production.  Sure, we do need revenue, and we rely upon donations.  But the issue was that of strangers coming here, selling thousands of dollars of stuff, then leaving.  That adds nothing to the forum in terms of information or revenue.  Who knows who these people are. Are they reputable?  Honest? Who knows.  At that other forum, they have a moderator who measures how much participation you do and how much selling. If you sell more than you participate,  he cuts you off. It seems a lot of work to me. Instead, we charge non-participating people more to sell. We charge active members less, though active members should contribute if they like the site, and we charge donors the least, just 1% of the selling price. That is just $1 on every $100. Does that really sound like too much?


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## Steve Shannon (May 7, 2016)

Nels said:


> The main purpose of paid classifieds was not revenue production.  Sure, we do need revenue, and we rely upon donations.  But the issue was that of strangers coming here, selling thousands of dollars of stuff, then leaving.  That adds nothing to the forum in terms of information or revenue.  Who knows who these people are. Are they reputable?  Honest? Who knows.  At that other forum, they have a moderator who measures how much participation you do and how much selling. If you sell more than you participate,  he cuts you off. It seems a lot of work to me. Instead, we charge non-participating people more to sell. We charge active members less, though active members should contribute if they like the site, and we charge donors the least, just 1% of the selling price. That is just $1 on every $100. Does that really sound like too much?


No. That's not too much for those who can support financially. I'm happy to be a donor, but most people contribute value to the site  (much, much, more than I have donated) by posting really interesting projects. That's what I came here for! How do we keep those people??

Edited to correct meaning.  I mistakenly included the word "not" and said "not many people donate more than I do" which is completely wrong, sounds arrogant, and is opposite from what I meant to say.  I'm sorry for how that sounded. When I reread it just now I was horrified by how it sounded. The amount I have donated financially is very small.


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## HMF (May 7, 2016)

Steve Shannon said:


> No. That's not too much for those who can support financially. I'm happy to be a donor, but most people contribute value to the site  (much, much, more than I have donated) by posting really interesting projects. That's what I came here for! How do we keep those people??



Great question Steve. The staff has discussed this many times. 

I suggested paying for articles, a small honorarium, which was rejected. The staff felt that it would insult others who contributed for free.
Other suggestions were a HM t-shirt or cap or other gift.
I suggested another Project of the Month.

As always, I am open to ideas-tell me what you think would incentivize people to post good projects.


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## oldboy1950 (May 7, 2016)

i would like to thank you, the moderators, and contributors to this friendly and informative site.
the birth and growth of a site such as this is an organic process... good people will attract more good people.
not everyone will be satisfied or interested to stick around, you need not worry about this as it is part of the process of growth-change.
good luck and good health to us all...
Dan


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## timvercoe (May 7, 2016)

Hi Nels,  thank your for responding to my post.  I don't think you need to change a thing.  There is volumes here and definitely something for every one.  The casual non critical tone of the form is the thing that really makes it work.  My issue with the volume of stuff is really my own problem, not the sits.  The other form is really geared towards the pros, and being a wanna be pro I find it most helpful.  The two sites are really not comparable, they both provide a well needed service.  I think I may have made some dough dough post here and no one even seems to notice.   A dough dough post there can lead to ..............probably enough said about that.   I am not sure how much help you really get from the members here, I am not sure that I have contributed any thing to the site  besides an occasional post, point being if your trying to manage this by yourself, I am in awe at what you've accomplished.  Tim


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## Bill W. (May 7, 2016)

Nels,  First of all, I would like to thank everybody that makes this site possible and what it is.  Many of us are new to machining and to HM.
It took me awhile after I joined to post a message because I wanted to get to know the people, the moderators, and kinda get a feeling of the flow.
I log on nearly every day.  I love to see what other members are doing, talking about, showing their projects and just being part of the process.
Not all of us are yet confident enough to take on a complicated project and post it to the site, but we are in the background supporting everything you do...
I donated through PayPal a couple months after joining and according to them it showed a payment.  I looked everywhere on HM (within my limited knowledge
of the site) to see if you guys received it and I could not find any info that you got it.  Is there somewhere I missed? 
Thank you for all you have accomplished and keep up the good work!!!!
A somewhat silent but very supportive member.
Bill


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## CraigB1960 (May 7, 2016)

Nels said:


> I created this place originally as an information base for when/if I ever get my act together and get my shop running.
> (Looks like that will FINALLY be happening soon!)



Nels, you came to the right place to help you get your shop running!  LOL.....in all seriousness, thank you for starting H-M and providing the spirit and attitude that guides it so well.  It has to be a time consuming task keeping it running.


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## HMF (May 8, 2016)

Nels said:


> Great question Steve. The staff has discussed this many times.
> 
> I suggested paying for articles, a small honorarium, which was rejected. The staff felt that it would insult others who contributed for free.
> Other suggestions were a HM t-shirt or cap or other gift.
> ...



This is a great question by Steve, so I wanted to bump it up. What do you think would encourage people to post more projects?


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## Mark in Indiana (May 9, 2016)

Nels,
I post my projects to share what I do, that is relevant to this group. With the intention that someone will get something positive from my posts, as I've often learned from, got inspired, and got something positive from other member's projects. An _At-A-Boy _or bragging rites are good enough for me.


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## Randall Marx (May 27, 2016)

Nels
Thank you, first of all, for starting and maintaining this site. I believe I was one of those people that stated I was here for the downloads in my initial introduction and would like to apologize for thinking that way. I know I have not contributed much in the way of information or ideas, mostly because I don't have enough experience to contribute. As I was looking around, waiting for my ability to download anything, I was VERY impressed by the helpfulness, friendliness, and by the sheer volume of experience and knowledge contained in this forum. Those qualities are what kept me around and prompted me to contribute financially to this site. I hope one day soon to be able to share something that may be useful to other members. Until then, I get MUCH enjoyment out of reading about the projects and ideas that get posted here.
Thank you and thanks to all of the staff members who make this site possible!!!

Randall


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