# Oh boy, you guys are gonna hate me.



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Oh boy did I screw myself this time...
First of all, thank you guys for reading and please excuse my writing because English is my second language.
So a while ago I bought this old used Spanish lathe for 500€, and I've been restoring it. It was in poor condition (and still is), but it's usable. I always noticed the poor surface finish at low cutting depths, and frankly horrible error on the dials.. What I mean is, if I dialed 1mm DOC, it would cut 0.70, or sometimes 0.75, or sometimes more or less, I can still make precision parts but honestly it takes I've times the effort, and makes the lathe a pain to use and I sigh every time I have to use it.
So I started to disassemble the crosslide  and everything was pretty good a bit banged up but not too wore out, until I got to the lathe saddle... It's just terrible, and I mean TERRIBLE...
I've leveled the lathe more or less (bc it's not in its final resting position) and put the level on the crosslide rails and it's not even remotely level (check image).
I've added shims to bring it to a near parallel state and it's almost 5mm of wear, it's like the previous owners used sand for oil... The biggest problem is that it much more more worn out on the prismatic (V) side...
OK, sorry for the long post, but now I have two options, knowing that I won't touch the lathe bed itself (of course it's gonna be worn but it's a 500€ lathe and it would just be too expensive to reground it)
1 option - put the carriage on my big shaper and shape away the flat (higher) side, until it's more leveled and try to compensate for the twist that that operation is gonna produce on the carriage prism(V)
2- bolt two flat shims on the V side of the saddle and then put on the shaper, and shape away to try to level it out, then do the same on the other side and try to take it to factory specs, knowing perfectly well that it's never gonna be 100% bc the bed is also a bit worn out...
I'm perfectly open to opinions and suggestions, just please Don't tell me to leave it alone because I've come to far to do that, and I just need the lathe to be a little better than it is right now... I also don't like to back away from a challenge :]
Sorry again for the long post, and Thank you guys again, I'm 24yo machining is my passion, but rn I feel like a turd polisher...


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## MyLilMule (Nov 3, 2021)

Ouch.

I am no expert in any of this, but you might consider using Turcite on the saddle ways. Never done it myself, but am considering it for my lathe some day if I decide to have the bed ground.


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## Janderso (Nov 3, 2021)

You are a young man with a passion. Follow it, that way you never work a day in your life.
I think many of us went to work so we could provide for our families. Following a dream is not always easy.
Better machines will come along, this one is at the end of it's useable life.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> Ouch.
> 
> I am no expert in any of this, but you might consider using Turcite on the saddle ways. Never done it myself, but am considering it for my lathe some day if I decide to have the bed ground.


Yeah I've tought about that but I'm not sure I can find it easily here, and it's such a thick piece missing that I thought it would be easier to just get two steel or cast iron plates and bolt them on the saddle ways, then machine them.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Janderso said:


> You are a young man with a passion. Follow it, that way you never work a day in your life.
> I think many of us went to work so we could provide for our families. Following a dream is not always easy.
> Better machines will come along, this one is at the end of it's useable life.


I find that very true. 
It's not like I absolutely 100% need the lathe because I have a teacher that let's me use his, which is almost brand new, but still I'd like to challenge myself to make this old lathe workable again..


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## T Bredehoft (Nov 3, 2021)

You might consider, if you don't need the length, slide the head to the right until its passed the worst of the wear and pretend its a shorter lathe.

Your English is certainly adequate. (good enough)

_Edit: _correct typo


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## Bob Korves (Nov 3, 2021)

Rafael, your written English is better than many or most people who were born and raised in the USA.  No excuses needed...


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## Nogoingback (Nov 3, 2021)

We have a member (Richard King 2) who teaches scraping and machine rebuilding.  You could PM him, 
or post a question on this sub forum: 
ALL ABOUT MACHINE RESTORATION & WAY SCRAPING​and I bet you could get some help from him.

By the way, your English is just fine.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Bob Korves said:


> Rafael, your written English is better than many or most people who were born and raised in the USA.  No excuses needed...


Thank you


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Nogoingback said:


> We have a member (Richard King 2) who teaches scraping and machine rebuilding.  You could PM him,
> or post a question on this sub forum:
> ALL ABOUT MACHINE RESTORATION & WAY SCRAPING​and I bet you could get some help from him.
> 
> By the way, your English is just fine.


Thank you, I'm a relatively new member here, and I didn't know about Richard King. I don't like to bother people but I might send him a pm thanks for letting me know.


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## markba633csi (Nov 3, 2021)

I would say go ahead and experiment- 5mm is nearly a quarter inch so any port in a storm as they say
Now you know what a worn machine looks like you should have better luck on your next one
-Mark


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> I would say go ahead and experiment- 5mm is nearly a quarter inch so any port in a storm as they say
> Now you know what a worn machine looks like you should have better luck on your next one
> -Mark


Thanks Mark that's the kind encouragement I need  for what the machine cost, I'm not really worried about ruining it, it's worth it's weight in scrap...


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## markba633csi (Nov 3, 2021)

What brand of lathe Rafael?


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> What brand of lathe Rafael?


All I know is that it's a bilcia, I don't know the subbrand bc the lathe came with no plaques.. It's a Spanish brand


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## RJSakowski (Nov 3, 2021)

If I understand you correctly, the ways of the cross slide are not parallel with the bed ways, as determined by theflat portion of the bed ways.  It isn't necessary that they be parallel for good lathe operation.  In use, you advance the cross slide toward the centerline of the spindle.  You could be advancing along vertical path with the same results.  It is possible that the lathe never was parallel to start.  

The amount of material removal to make it parallel is excessive and could create more problems than it cures.  To start, I would blue the way prism to se where the contact points are.  If you are achieving contact over the entire prism, chances are good that you don't have the wear that you believe you have.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

RJSakowski said:


> If I understand you correctly, the ways of the cross slide are not parallel with the bed ways, as determined by theflat portion of the bed ways.  It isn't necessary that they be parallel for good lathe operation.  In use, you advance the cross slide toward the centerline of the spindle.  You could be advancing along vertical path with the same results.  It is possible that the lathe never was parallel to start.
> 
> The amount of material removal to make it parallel is excessive and could create more problems than it cures.  To start, I would blue the way prism to se where the contact points are.  If you are achieving contact over the entire prism, chances are good that you don't have the wear that you believe you have.


I think thats impossible because if the crosslide is advancing towards the centerline at an angle, it means that, the bigger the diameter of the workpiece the lower the tool will be from the centerline, and it won't cut correctly, also the chatter I get is most likely from the carriage gear not meshing correctly with the rack because of its lower position, due to the worn out saddle ways... Also you can see In the pictures that the inside of the prism barely has any oil paths left, as they eroded away, and In fact in the center the worn out prism has actually broken through to the other side... But I agree with you that I should blue everything and see the contact points, and go from there


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## Flyinfool (Nov 3, 2021)

If there is really that much wear on the saddle, then there must also be a lot of wear on the bed. Even if you get the saddle all square and straight, the bed might still be like a roller coaster ride. Use a precision straight edge to check to see if the bed also has comparable wear.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> If there is really that much wear on the saddle, then there must also be a lot of wear on the bed. Even if you get the saddle all square and straight, the bed might still be like a roller coaster ride. Use a precision straight edge to check to see if the bed also has comparable wear.


I checked it and it's not nearly as much as the saddle, not by a Longshot, I can live with it, but I can't live with the saddle wear


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## RJSakowski (Nov 3, 2021)

As long as you advance toward the spindle centerline along a straight path, it doesn't matter.  The tool path is determined by the cross slide ways path not the bed nor whether or not the lathe is level.  

However, I see the wear on the prism surface.  It looks like the cross slide would be tilted toward the headstock as well.  If I was  going to rework the cross slide saddle, I would do a total resurfacing of the prism as well.  But as flyinfool suggested, you need to check the bed prism for wear as well.   More than likely, you will find excessive wear there which is of more concern,


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## nnam (Nov 3, 2021)

5mm.  Maybe something else going on.  Are you 100% sure of your observation and conclusion?   Sometime, given an observation,  different conclusions can be made


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

RJSakowski said:


> As long as you advance toward the spindle centerline along a straight path, it doesn't matter.  The tool path is determined by the cross slide ways path not the bed nor whether or not the lathe is level.
> 
> However, I see the wear on the prism surface.  It looks like the cross slide would be tilted toward the headstock as well.  If I was  going to rework the cross slide saddle, I would do a total resurfacing of the prism as well.  But as flyinfool suggested, you need to check the bed prism for wear as well.   More than likely, you will find excessive wear there which is of more concern,


OK I understand more or less, I'll have to study that a bit more to fully understand, because in my head if the crosslide isn't leveled to the bed ways , the tool cannot be at centerline at all times... 
I'd the saddle is 5mm higher towards the back of the lathe, it cannot ever have a straight line between the radius of the workpiece and the centerline of the spindle, or am I missing something? 
Now you're making me think and I like that, thank you


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

nnam said:


> 5mm.  Maybe something else going on.  Are you 100% sure of your observation and conclusion?   Sometime, given an observation,  different conclusions can be made


Man I am definitely not 100% sure I've measured everything last week, a few days ago, and today... I've been losing my Mind over it, I tried measuring different ways and I'm still not sure, the lathe has such use and abuse I cannot get a good datum for referencing, the best I got are in those pictures...


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## Flyinfool (Nov 3, 2021)

Use the lathe as it's own datum.
Yea its a pain but put it back together and mount a long bar in the tool holder.
Get that adjusted to be on center like if it was a cutting tool.
Now using the flat way as your datum. Measure for changes in height at the end of the bar as you move the cross side back and forth, This will tell you how much the tool tip is moving up and down over the range of motion.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2021)

Hello,  I just saw this.  I think I can help you more then you ever dreamed of.  I have a student who has been to 3 of my classes who lives in Portugal.  He can scrape and he has some straight-edges.   He is an excellent scraper and smart as a whip.    I will look up his email and private  message you.  He took a class I had in Springfield VT at the Gear Works and the owner was so impressed he offerend him a job, but it was just after 9/11 and they wouldn't let him back in to work.  He has also driven to Germany 2 different times and years and took class once in Germany and once in Austria.   He works at a candy factory and is a maintenance manager.  I think he lives in Bath.   I am positive he will help you as I ask my students to help no questions asked.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> Use the lathe as it's own datum.
> Yea its a pain but put it back together and mount a long bar in the tool holder.
> Get that adjusted to be on center like if it was a cutting tool.
> Now using the flat way as your datum. Measure for changes in height at the end of the bar as you move the cross side back and forth, This will tell you how much the tool is moving up and down over the range of motion.


That's a really smart idea I'll have to do that, but won't it give me the same distance as measuring the crosslide ways inclination?
Thank you fkyinfool that's a great idea tho


Richard King 2 said:


> Hello,  I just saw this.  I think I can help you more then you ever dreamed of.  I have a student who has been to 3 of my classes who lives in Portugal.  He can scrape and he has some straight-edges.   He is an excellent scraper and smart as a whip.    I will look up his email and private  message you.  He took a class I had in Springfield VT at the Gear Works and the owner was so impressed he offerend him a job, but it was just after 9/11 and they wouldn't let him back in to work.  He has also driven to Germany 2 different times and years and took class once in Germany and once in Austria.   He works at a candy factory and is a maintenance manager.  I think he lives in Bath.   I am positive he will help you as I ask my students to help no questions asked.


Gee thank you so much, that's what I call calling the big guns!! 
It's a cheapo lathe and I'll have to buy a better one eventually, I just bought this one bc it was cheap and I had the space, and I'm currently having machining lessons, and it makes round parts that's what matters and the end of the day... I'm not doing precision work, although I want to eventually, I'd just like to tighten up this lathe a bit more without spending money I could save to buy a good one


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2021)

I emailed him (Adam in Portugal)  with a link to this forum and I sent Rafael his email address.  I will be here to make some suggestions too.   Rich


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2021)

My wife wants me to go shopping now.  I will answer later.   I do have a couple of question now for you.  Will you be machining or turning long parts between center?  Or will you be turning out of the chuck most of the time?    What brand is the lathe?   What model is it?  Where is it made?   I would like to look at the machine on the internet.  Many times there are parts manuals online.   Or do you have a link to a manual?

Does the headstock sit on a V and Flat way or on 2 flat ways?  What do you expect for tolerance's do you expect?    Do you know if the spindle bearings are ball or roller bearings or are they a bronze bushing?   What is the highest spindle speed on the sign?

Got to go.  
Rich


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> My wife wants me to go shopping now.  I will answer later.   I do have a couple of question now for you.  Will you be machining or turning long parts between center?  Or will you be turning out of the chuck most of the time?    What brand is the lathe?   What model is it?  Where is it made?   I would like to look at the machine on the internet.  Many times there are parts manuals online.   Or do you have a link to a manual?
> 
> Does the headstock sit on a V and Flat way or on 2 flat ways?  What do you expect for tolerance's do you expect?    Do you know if the spindle bearings are ball or roller bearings or are they a bronze bushing?   What is the highest spindle speed on the sign?
> 
> ...


It's OK Richard I'm really not in a rush, I wanna plan things out well first.
I'll try and break this down:
I'm pretty sure most of the time I'll be turning out of the chuck, I rarely machine large parts;
The lathe is a Spanish bilcia, I don't really know the model bc I barely find any Info online;
The headstock sits in two flatways as you'll see on the pics attached;
I'm a realist, it's a 500€ lathe and I'm not expecting crazy tolerances to be honest, I'm just expecting a little more accuracy because the dials are almost unusable (bc how inaccurate the cut is) and a Little better surface finish, because with lighter cuts it's terrible... ;
The headstock has ball bearings and they have no play and are in good condition;
I'm not 100% sure but I think the highest speed is 1200rpms, I'm not sure bc the lathe came with no plaques... One of the caveats of being a 500€ lathe... You get what you pay for... I Will have to buy a better lathe if I'm too pursuit a career of machining, that's to me 1000% clear, but for the money this lathe would be sold, I would rather keep it for small jobs and things that don't require atomic precison ;


Richard King 2 said:


> My wife wants me to go shopping now.  I will answer later.   I do have a couple of question now for you.  Will you be machining or turning long parts between center?  Or will you be turning out of the chuck most of the time?    What brand is the lathe?   What model is it?  Where is it made?   I would like to look at the machine on the internet.  Many times there are parts manuals online.   Or do you have a link to a manual?
> 
> Does the headstock sit on a V and Flat way or on 2 flat ways?  What do you expect for tolerance's do you expect?    Do you know if the spindle bearings are ball or roller bearings or are they a bronze bushing?   What is the highest spindle speed on the sign?
> 
> ...


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## jwmelvin (Nov 3, 2021)

I think that the “height” of the tool may be misleading. One could certainly imagine a lathe with a non-horizontal cross slide. Let’s say it moves upward along a 10° incline as it approaches the spindle axis. So the tool height would change relative to the (horizontal) carriage ways, but as long as the tool starts in the right place, it will move along a diameter of the workpiece. To set the tool height, one would be measuring from the inclined cross ways, not the horizontal carriage ways. 

Such a configuration is perhaps more complicated in some aspects for setup, but should be no different in operation.

It does seem like something is off, as wear alone cannot account for the discrepancy you have noted.


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## Flyinfool (Nov 3, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> I think that the “height” of the tool may be misleading. One could certainly imagine a lathe with a non-horizontal cross slide. Let’s say it moves upward along a 10° incline as it approaches the spindle axis. So the tool height would change relative to the (horizontal) carriage ways, but as long as the tool starts in the right place, it will move along a diameter of the workpiece. To set the tool height, one would be measuring from the inclined cross ways, not the horizontal carriage ways.
> 
> Such a configuration is perhaps more complicated in some aspects for setup, but should be no different in operation.
> 
> It does seem like something is off, as wear alone cannot account for the discrepancy you have noted.


I was thinking about that too.
In engineering one of the ways I test a theory is to take it to extremes. If it holds true at the extremes them it likely is true at the small scale that is hard to see.
So in this case if the cross slide were at a 45° angle the height of the tool tip above the bed ways would obviously change as the cross slide is moved. Even though the 45° inclined cross slide would function just fine. What is important is that the tool tip follow a straight line that goes thru the center of the spindle. The angle of that line is irrelevant, just like the lathe being level is irrelevant, In theory it would work just as well bolted to the wall. What is important is the the mounting of the lathe does not impart any twist in the bed.

So after more thought, What is important is that the cross slide moves in a straight line that is 90° to the Center Line of the spindle. As long as the cross slide is moving in a straight line it does not matter what angle it is at. Once you adjust the tool height to spindle center line the tool will always hit the diameter of the part it its tangent point, which is what you want.

As far as the dial markings being way off, are you sure the lathe is calibrated in mm and not in inches? Are you taking up all the backlash before you measurement? Some lathes will move the tool tip 1mm per mark which means that it will remove 2mm from the dia. Some lathes are the opposite where the graduations on the dial are for how much is being removed from the diameter of the part. There is usually something real near the dial to tell you what the calibration is, If not then you need to measure it to verify what you have.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> I think that the “height” of the tool may be misleading. One could certainly imagine a lathe with a non-horizontal cross slide. Let’s say it moves upward along a 10° incline as it approaches the spindle axis. So the tool height would change relative to the (horizontal) carriage ways, but as long as the tool starts in the right place, it will move along a diameter of the workpiece. To set the tool height, one would be measuring from the inclined cross ways, not the horizontal carriage ways.
> 
> Such a configuration is perhaps more complicated in some aspects for setup, but should be no different in operation.
> 
> It does seem like something is off, as wear alone cannot account for the discrepancy you have noted.


Right that's what been eating my brain, how would almost 5mm wear on a machine like this


Flyinfool said:


> I was thinking about that too.
> In engineering one of the ways I test a theory is to take it to extremes. If it holds true at the extremes them it likely is true at the small scale that is hard to see.
> So in this case if the cross slide were at a 45° angle the height of the tool tip above the bed ways would obviously change as the cross slide is moved. Even though the 45° inclined cross slide would function just fine. What is important is that the tool tip follow a straight line that goes thru the center of the spindle. The angle of that line is irrelevant, just like the lathe being level is irrelevant, In theory it would work just as well bolted to the wall. What is important is the the mounting of the lathe does not impart any twist in the bed.
> 
> ...


Ohh I see OK that makes sense... I was picturing in my mind the crosslide going forward but also upwards, but it makes sense that it always traces a straight line tru the center! 
The dial yeah I'm pretty sure thats in mm because is never misses by a lot, just enough to be as annoying error, and also 1mm in the dial is 1mm off the workpiece. 
With the wear thing accounted for what should I do to correct the bad surface finish and the taper its cutting? 
It's cutting about 0.03mm taper in about 100mm


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## Flyinfool (Nov 3, 2021)

The taper and the surface finish may be two unrelated issues.
First is to figure out the surface finish. a good surface finish will make for more accurate measurement for getting out the taper. 

What material are you cutting and what kind of tool are you using? Pictures of the tool and surface finish will help. along with speeds feed and depth of cut.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> The taper and the surface finish may be two unrelated issues.
> First is to figure out the surface finish. a good surface finish will make for more accurate measurement for getting out the taper.
> 
> What material are you cutting and what kind of tool are you using? Pictures of the tool and surface finish will help. along with speeds feed and depth of cut.


OK I will clean everything, reassemble the lathe and chuck and document everything...


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## Flyinfool (Nov 3, 2021)

Before you put it back together, re-cut all of those oil grooves so that oil can actually get to where it is supposed to be. That will slow down any more wear.
I almost wonder if the saddle did not have a defect in the casting and they just kept grinding at the factory till it worked properly?? If there was 5mm worn off that surface I would expect to see a lot more galling and other nastiness.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 3, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> Before you put it back together, re-cut all of those oil grooves so that oil can actually get to where it is supposed to be. That will slow down any more wear.
> I almost wonder if the saddle did not have a defect in the casting and they just kept grinding at the factory till it worked properly?? If there was 5mm worn off that surface I would expect to see a lot more galling and other nastiness.


That's possible I guess yeah, I will do that... 
Boy I was wanting to machine a big piece of cast iron on the shaper </3


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## sdelivery (Nov 3, 2021)

It is not that expensive to glue on some turcite and get it back to something a little more useable.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2021)

I got an email back from Adam...I was mistaken, he's in Spain, but said he is about 14 hours drive, but willing to help as much as he can


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 3, 2021)

Wow is that worn.  When the oil groove is gone it is bad.   It is important to bring the saddle back to the proper height and if you can't find Turcite.  Look for a Phenolic laminate grade linen weave.  It comes in different sizes and is glue on just like turcite.   It is what we used before turcite got popular.   A very simple way to test the saddle alignment is to indicate where the carriage bolts on.  You can put a mag base on the front side of the bed and the plunger type indicator on the underside and shim up the saddle with plastic shim stock super glued on and the slide the saddle to and fro.   Then use that figure to calculate how much angle it is off plus the ridge you depth miked.   Look inside the brass nuts  and look at the feed screw thread, I suspect they are sharp like a bolt thread.  They should be square or acme threads.  It the saddle bottom is that worn, then I predict the saddle top is worn a lot in the middle of the flats and dovetails are worn a lot too.   What is the travel of your shaper?   If you had a dovetail cutter, you might be easier to mill the top flats and dovetails.  You will have to raise the cross-slide too. I asked about the headstock as those heads sitting on flats can be turned so you can turn straight.  The bed is worn on the flat front near the chuck and it turns a taper big on that end.   If your not wanting tight tolerances you can turn the head so it turns a test bar straight.  You loosen the headstock and it probably has a pivot pin to move the head to turn straight.  Many Asian lathes are built that way and it makes it so much easier to align a worn bed headstock.  I also suspect the spindle bearings are bad.  I can tell you how to test them, but tomorrow.  It's bedtime for me....lol...


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 4, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> Wow is that worn.  When the oil groove is gone it is bad.   It is important to bring the saddle back to the proper height and if you can't find Turcite.  Look for a Phenolic laminate grade linen weave.  It comes in different sizes and is glue on just like turcite.   It is what we used before turcite got popular.   A very simple way to test the saddle alignment is to indicate where the carriage bolts on.  You can put a mag base on the front side of the bed and the plunger type indicator on the underside and shim up the saddle with plastic shim stock super glued on and the slide the saddle to and fro.   Then use that figure to calculate how much angle it is off plus the ridge you depth miked.   Look inside the brass nuts  and look at the feed screw thread, I suspect they are sharp like a bolt thread.  They should be square or acme threads.  It the saddle bottom is that worn, then I predict the saddle top is worn a lot in the middle of the flats and dovetails are worn a lot too.   What is the travel of your shaper?   If you had a dovetail cutter, you might be easier to mill the top flats and dovetails.  You will have to raise the cross-slide too. I asked about the headstock as those heads sitting on flats can be turned so you can turn straight.  The bed is worn on the flat front near the chuck and it turns a taper big on that end.   If your not wanting tight tolerances you can turn the head so it turns a test bar straight.  You loosen the headstock and it probably has a pivot pin to move the head to turn straight.  Many Asian lathes are built that way and it makes it so much easier to align a worn bed headstock.  I also suspect the spindle bearings are bad.  I can tell you how to test them, but tomorrow.  It's bedtime for me....lol...


Yes I will do that, I'm more than grateful for the time you already dedicated!! 
Flyinfool also has a really good theory, if you can read the comments and give your opinion that would be awesome.. 
My shaper is my pride and joy, she's a  big ol meanie and has more than enough travel for the saddle to fit
I thinks she's also pretty accurate, I don't know about the usual tolerances for shapers but I can usually cut about 200mm long with about 0.02mm deviation... The saddle won't fit on my mill tho..


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 4, 2021)

You may ask management here to switch this thread to the rebuilding / reconditioning forum.  More members will benefit from it there.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 4, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> You may ask management here to switch this thread to the rebuilding / reconditioning forum.  More members will benefit from it there.


Can you ask? I'm really new here and o barely know anyone, that's why I put the thread here


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## Nogoingback (Nov 4, 2021)

There is no problem asking about something like that.


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## vtcnc (Nov 4, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> I almost wonder if the saddle did not have a defect in the casting and they just kept grinding at the factory till it worked properly?? If there was 5mm worn off that surface I would expect to see a lot more galling and other nastiness.


I've read through this and looked at the photos a few times now. If there was actually 5mm of wear than you would not see any oil grooves. Uniformly and unanimously - we wouldn't be able to detect any evidence of oil grooves. Even if there was a worn taper, oil grooves are not cut more than 5mm deep in a saddle in so far that you would see oil grooves after years of wear taking down that cast iron 5mm. No way. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that statement that oil grooves are not cut more than 5 mm deep.

I think you have a bed that is VERY twisted.

While it is clear that your saddle is very worn, I think the 5mm has to be some sort of miscalculation or observation error. Twist could induce something like what you are describing at the scale that you are observing for a lathe of that size.

Also, I am going to move this thread to the Reconditioning Thread. While there are some cross over topics in this thread, it is mostly about the the reconditioning of the machine and you will likely get some additional input over there.

No way are we gonna hate you on this thread! This is the type of topic we live for here at H-M!


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 4, 2021)

vtcnc said:


> I've read through this and looked at the photos a few times now. If there was actually 5mm of wear than you would not see any oil grooves. Uniformly and unanimously - we wouldn't be able to detect any evidence of oil grooves. Even if there was a worn taper, oil grooves are not cut more than 5mm deep in a saddle in so far that you would see oil grooves after years of wear taking down that cast iron 5mm. No way. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that statement that oil grooves are not cut more than 5 mm deep.
> 
> I think you have a bed that is VERY twisted.
> 
> ...


I agree completely on just about everything you said, that's why I came here before I did anything to the saddle, 5mm always seemed way too much deep in my gut.
Thank you also for changing to the correct thread.


----------



## Richard King 2 (Nov 4, 2021)

My metric sucks....I missed that.   5 mm =  0.197" a little over 3/16".  I would think the oil grooves could be cut by hand or ground in by hand 1/8" tops.  I did a close up of the bottom of the saddle and at the top of the frame I have a + and I pressed it.  Then look on the outside of the V's and the flat and there are narrow ridges of original not worn surfaces.  Use the end of your veneer caliber and check the height of then.  

When you cleaned up the machine did you fine small sand particles by chance?  I saw a condition like this once before on a lathe the owner used a tool post grinder all the time and the lubrication mixed with it acted like lapping compound.   The pits in the ways is a sign of lack of lubrication as the cast iron pulls out from the friction of super smooth surfaces that "ring" together like  gage blocks rubbed together stick.  You need a better level.  That one your using is for wood working.  Or if that's all you have, use a magnifying glass to check repeatability from one end to the other.  I thought Adam lived closer and he has a precision level.


----------



## Richard King 2 (Nov 4, 2021)

To figure out what size shim you will need turn the saddle back over after you stone it for burrs then bolt on the carriage, Have it on the tail-stock end,  then start to shim the 6 corners to bring it up and you can feel backlash in the rack and pinion.  It will be worn but it's all you have. Let us know what size shim you find out.  This the materials I use,  https://www.tstar.com/RULON-142   and https://www.acmeplastics.com/phenolic/phenolic-sheet    You could check in your industrial plastic companies in your area and see if they work.  The picture you have of the flat stock looks like steel.  Don't use steel.   Bronze would work to, but it is very expensive.   Another material is https://www.interstateplastics.com/Nylatron-Nylon-Nsm-Cast-Sheet-NYLSCN~SH.php


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> To figure out what size shim you will need turn the saddle back over after you stone it for burrs then bolt on the carriage, Have it on the tail-stock end,  then start to shim the 6 corners to bring it up and you can feel backlash in the rack and pinion.  It will be worn but it's all you have. Let us know what size shim you find out.  This the materials I use,  https://www.tstar.com/RULON-142   and https://www.acmeplastics.com/phenolic/phenolic-sheet    You could check in your industrial plastic companies in your area and see if they work.  The picture you have of the flat stock looks like steel.  Don't use steel.   Bronze would work to, but it is very expensive.   Another material is https://www.interstateplastics.com/Nylatron-Nylon-Nsm-Cast-Sheet-NYLSCN~SH.php


The steel was just a prop, my first idea was to get actual cast iron, there's plenty of old scrap machines here with nice cast iron to use from... 
But from what flyinfool said I might not even have to shim anything because the angle of the wear might be the least of my problems


----------



## Alcap (Nov 5, 2021)

I’ve been following this thread and being inexperienced , trying to learn . The issue is he dials a certain amount and doesn’t get the correct outcome. I’m trying to figure out how the wear in the ways are causing his problem? I can understand if there’s wear along the ways the cuts might cut a taper . A hypothetical job , say 2” shaft and a 1” cut along it he touches off takes a he takes a .010” doc on his dial . He measures needing another .008” on a side , he dials that and getting something different? Wouldn’t that be a different problem, slop in the crossslide , compound or others ?


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Alcap said:


> I’ve been following this thread and being inexperienced , trying to learn . The issue is he dials a certain amount and doesn’t get the correct outcome. I’m trying to figure out how the wear in the ways are causing his problem? I can understand if there’s wear along the ways the cuts might cut a taper . A hypothetical job , say 2” shaft and a 1” cut along it he touches off takes a he takes a .010” doc on his dial . He measures needing another .008” on a side , he dials that and getting something different? Wouldn’t that be a different problem, slop in the crossslide , compound or others ?


Yes that's exactly the problem, but the worst part is that it's not off by an exact amount, sometimes more, sometimes less
I don't think it might be the crossslide because it's in really good condition with almost no slop at all, and the compound slide is locked, I lock it when not using it


----------



## Alcap (Nov 5, 2021)

Thanks for responding so quickly. I hope the experts can help me understand more . For what it’s worth , on my Clausing 5914 if I want to hit close tolerances I found i have to put a dial indicator on the cross slide when I get close to finish size  . Again I have no idea why , but my cross slide screw is worn and nut might be too .


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Alcap said:


> Thanks for responding so quickly. I hope the experts can help me understand more . For what it’s worth , on my Clausing 5914 if I want to hit close tolerances I found i have to put a dial indicator on the cross slide when I get close to finish size  . Again I have no idea why , but my cross slide screw is worn and nut might be too .


True I might have to try that, but I doubt it would work 100%, because my surface finish is also pretty rough... I'll assemble the lathe like it is, take some cuts and document everything so you guys can see


----------



## vtcnc (Nov 5, 2021)

Alcap said:


> Thanks for responding so quickly. I hope the experts can help me understand more . For what it’s worth , on my Clausing 5914 if I want to hit close tolerances I found i have to put a dial indicator on the cross slide when I get close to finish size  . Again I have no idea why , but my cross slide screw is worn and nut might be too .


A better search term for you to research is "backlash".

"Slop", "chatter", "poor finish" are the symptoms we are feeling/detecting while using the machine. Backlash in the leadscrew/nut pair, excessive wear in the ways (sliding contacts) of the machine and poor setups will combine to create these symptoms.

Here is a quick video. 




@RafaelMarujo - I would make an earnest effort to level the lathe and try to remove any twist that may be present in your setup. There are some leveling procedures around here somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up. Or you can do a search in the meantime. Once you have the machine level, then you can begin to narrow down where additional problems may exist in your machine.


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

vtcnc said:


> A better search term for you to research is "backlash".
> 
> "Slop", "chatter", "poor finish" are the symptoms we are feeling/detecting while using the machine. Backlash in the leadscrew/nut pair, excessive wear in the ways (sliding contacts) of the machine and poor setups will combine to create these symptoms.
> 
> ...


I do know about backlash, i always remove backlash and try to tighten unused axis... In my teachers lathe i do the same and everything hits correctly to the hundreds of a mm. 
I didn't yet level the lathe perfectly because it's not in its final place, but I will try to level it better when I reassemble it


----------



## jwmelvin (Nov 5, 2021)

You seem to have a problem with repeatability. And it seems that the saddle does not properly fit the bed ways. That lack of proper fit could show up as an uncertain position for the saddle in the x-axis (cross-slide direction). 

It was suggested earlier to determine the bearing surfaces for the saddle on the bed ways. Given the extreme angle that the saddle seems to take, and the apparent nonrepeatability, this should be your prime objective. The saddle needs to have a consistent interface with the bed ways. It also needs as large a contact area as possible (distributed across the saddle extents). Once that is achieved, you will have good stiffness and good averaging of any way nonlineararity. Resurfacing the saddle as Richard mentions would achieve the broad contact that you need. But determining your current contact surfaces may shed some light on the issue.

Edit: also, if you can get a more sensitive level, you’d want to measure across the bed ways without the carriage supporting the level (e.g. on 123 blocks) to see if you can get the ways themselves straight without any possible influence of the saddle-bedway fit.


----------



## jwmelvin (Nov 5, 2021)

I do agree with others that leveling (untwisting) the bed ways seems important before determining saddle-bed fit. That’s why I mentioned using a level on the bed without the saddle. 

Even once the bed is as straight as possible, I’d want to consider the saddle-bed fit at multiple positions along the z-axis, as bed wear will certainly affect the bearing surfaces.


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> You seem to have a problem with repeatability. And it seems that the saddle does not properly fit the bed ways. That lack of proper fit could show up as an uncertain position for the saddle in the x-axis (cross-slide direction).
> 
> It was suggested earlier to determine the bearing surfaces for the saddle on the bed ways. Given the extreme angle that the saddle seems to take, and the apparent nonrepeatability, this should be your prime objective. The saddle needs to have a consistent interface with the bed ways. It also needs as large a contact area as possible (distributed across the saddle extents). Once that is achieved, you will have good stiffness and good averaging of any way nonlineararity. Resurfacing the saddle as Richard mentions would achieve the broad contact that you need. But determining your current contact surfaces may shed some light on the issue.
> 
> Edit: also, if you can get a more sensitive level, you’d want to measure across the bed ways without the carriage supporting the level (e.g. on 123 blocks) to see if you can get the ways themselves straight without any possible influence of the saddle-bedway fit.


That's a good idea I will try to check the saddle bed fit with some paint before I assemble it... 
The lathe might not be 100% level,, but it's 99% and I wouldn't think that would give the error it's giving... I definitely expect to have some parasitic error forever, but I think it's way too much right now... 
Now I'm starting to Think the error wasn't that much and I was overreacting, I hope not


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## vtcnc (Nov 5, 2021)

RafaelMarujo said:


> Now I'm starting to Think the error wasn't that much and I was overreacting, I hope not


I hope you were overreacting!  If there _really is_ that much error, there is something seriously wrong.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

vtcnc said:


> I hope you were overreacting!  If there _really is_ that much error, there is something seriously wrong.


I'm willing to bet there's something wrong with it, there's a reason this was a 500€ lathe, specially a 2m between centers one, it's worth more in scrap


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

Over here in the USA there is a simple solution to worn acme screws and nuts.  We can buy off the shelf pre-made ones.  Then we cut the old screw portion off and keep the area where the front part of the screw that fits into the saddle.  then bore a hole in the front part, turn the new screw down to the bored hole to a press fit and cross drill install a taper pin or silver solder them together.  Mill the acme nut to fit like the old one. http://www.greenbaymfgco.com/ACME-threaded-rods.php


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> Over here in the USA there is a simple solution to worn acme screws and nuts.  We can buy off the shelf pre-made ones.  Then we cut the old screw portion off and keep the area where the front part of the screw that fits into the saddle.  then bore a hole in the front part, turn the new screw down to the bored hole to a press fit and cross drill install a taper pin or silver solder them together.  Mill the acme nut to fit like the old one. http://www.greenbaymfgco.com/ACME-threaded-rods.php


I would say that the trapezoidal thread isn't worn out that much honestly


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

He is correct, if you set the tool at the centerline your cross-slide traveling in on an angle in and out will not matter.  Think about a slant bed lathe it comes in and still works.  Or a cut off tool on a screw machine.  as long as the tool is set to the centerline at the end of the cut.   We try to keep the saddle co-planer to the bed - front or head-stock end to tail-stock end by measuring the underside of the saddle  where the carriage bolts on so the feed shaft and feed screw / half nut are aligned to the right height.  As I explained by shimming the saddle up and using the rack pinion and rack clearance and measuring down from the top of the saddle flats above the dovetail with either a level on them and the bed or indicating the tops and moving the saddle front to back and indicating those clearance surfaces.   Machine rebuilding is not rocket science.  If you have common sense and take your time and ask people who have down it before it's simple.  Now with you tube and being able to post photo's from experts online.  You will be able to solve this problem.   Where the issue lies is trying some new way and experimenting or listening to someone guessing at how to do it.  That is where you will get yourself in a mess.   Thanks VT for moving this into the rebuild section and as you said VT, many should learn from this thread as we help the OP.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> You seem to have a problem with repeatability. And it seems that the saddle does not properly fit the bed ways. That lack of proper fit could show up as an uncertain position for the saddle in the x-axis (cross-slide direction).
> 
> It was suggested earlier to determine the bearing surfaces for the saddle on the bed ways. Given the extreme angle that the saddle seems to take, and the apparent nonrepeatability, this should be your prime objective. The saddle needs to have a consistent interface with the bed ways. It also needs as large a contact area as possible (distributed across the saddle extents). Once that is achieved, you will have good stiffness and good averaging of any way nonlineararity. Resurfacing the saddle as Richard mentions would achieve the broad contact that you need. But determining your current contact surfaces may shed some light on the issue.
> 
> Edit: also, if you can get a more sensitive level, you’d want to measure across the bed ways without the carriage supporting the level (e.g. on 123 blocks) to see if you can get the ways themselves straight without any possible influence of the saddle-bedway fit.


So I stoned the surfaces, and tried bluing and rubbing the saddle back in the bed, and I'm not really sure what I was expecting... I think the saddle is touching all across the bed, although the burs and bruises...


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

RafaelMarujo said:


> I would say that the trapezoidal thread isn't worn out that much honestly


I am talking about the cross-feed screw and using the Green-Bay Mfg.  pre-made.  In the photo you just took. Look at the feed rack that is bolted under the way up to the far left.  That portion is brand new as the carriage never allows the feed rack pinion gear never goes up there.  Then compare the rack down toward the tailstock.  I would bet a Euro $ that the rack is worn or it's teeth are sharp or pointed where the saddle is used the most as the ways up near the chuck are worn the most.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

I have found some info for you.  Specs are from a new machine.  Your bed is worn and fortunately the head can be adjusted as it sets on 2 flat surfaces.  You epoxy on the wear strips as the other fellow said with Rulon 142 or Turcite B or the other products I mentioned, scrape it to fit the unworn area on the tail stock end, replace or make a new cross-feed screw and nut you should have an OK machine or be able to sell it and buy a better one.  http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/182/25340.pdf


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

I


Richard King 2 said:


> I am talking about the cross-feed screw and using the Green-Bay Mfg.  pre-made.  In the photo you just took. Look at the feed rack that is bolted under the way up to the far left.  That portion is brand new as the carriage never allows the feed rack pinion gear never goes up there.  Then compare the rack down toward the tailstock.  I would bet a Euro $ that the rack is worn or it's teeth are sharp or pointed where the saddle is used the most as the ways up near the chuck are worn the most.


m sorry Richard I dont understand what you mean, do you mean the crosslide feeds crew?


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

From your photo's it looks at if the leveling screws are inside the foot or bases.  You should have the base leveling screws setting on leveling steel plates. that would be 12.7 mm x 101.6 mm x 101.6 mm (1/2" x 4" x 4") with a 25.4 mm (1") x 3.175 mm deep (1/8")  so the leveling screw sets into the hole.  I could not find a maintenance manual for you model, but found these.



			http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/182/25279.pdf
		






__





						Colchester Triumph Lathes 1950s—1960s
					

Colchester Lathes from 1903 to 2000



					www.lathes.co.uk


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> From your photo's it looks at if the leveling screws are inside the foot or bases.  You should have the base leveling screws setting on leveling steel plates. that would be 12.7 mm x 101.6 mm x 101.6 mm (1/2" x 4" x 4") with a 25.4 mm (1") x 3.175 mm deep (1/8")  so the leveling screw sets into the hole.  I could not find a maintenance manual for you model, but found these.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





RafaelMarujo said:


> I
> 
> m sorry Richard I dont understand what you mean, do you mean the crosslide feeds crew?


The in and out screw with the dials.  The one that feeds the cross-slide in and out is called the cross feed screw.  The picture that VT shows. Post # 52


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> The in and out screw with the dials.  The one that feeds the cross-slide in and out is called the cross feed screw.  The picture that VT shows. Post # 52


So yes it is that screw, I'd doesn't seem too worn and the backlash isn't that bad either, maybe 1mm tick on the dials... 
Did you see the pictures I sent of the ways blued?


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

Yes,   The saddle looks like a rocking chair I bet.  Meaning it is convex or looks like the chair old people sit in and it rocks up and down.  When you set it on a lathe it is trapped on the V ways and as you push it back and forth it rocks and looks super flat.  Remember what I said about why there are pits or scratches in the cast iron?   It was lapped flat with grinding grit or no oil so it lapped flat and the blue looks good.  You only want 50% contact not 100% contact.    If you had a straight edge and you lay it on the saddle ways I bet it will show they are convex.








						Birch Lane: Farmhouse & Traditional Furniture - Made to Last | Birch Lane
					

Shop Birch Lane for classics you’ll love forever. Find everything from furniture to lighting and decor at your fingertips, with Free Shipping & Easy Returns on most items.




					www.birchlane.com


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> Yes,   The saddle looks like a rocking chair I bet.  Meaning it is convex or looks like the chair old people sit in and it rocks up and down.  When you set it on a lathe it is trapped on the V ways and as you push it back and forth it rocks and looks super flat.  Remember what I said about why there are pits or scratches in the cast iron?   It was lapped flat with grinding grit or no oil so it lapped flat and the blue looks good.  You only want 50% contact not 100% contact.    If you had a straight edge and you lay it on the saddle ways I bet it will show they are convex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I have no straight edge, I'm only 24yo and I'm the first in the family coming Into machining so I don't have many of the tools I still need... I can try and make a straight edges on the Shaper.


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## Flyinfool (Nov 5, 2021)

It sounds like your machine may be bad enough that you do not need a "precision" straight edge to be able to see it.

Go to the store and look at metal meter rulers, the wider and the thicker the better. Take the ones that are there and place them edge to edge and hold up to the light the less light the closer they match. when you find a good match turn one of them over and check again. to see if they are still good. then flip the first one to see if it is still good. This will not get you precision straight edges but it will get you the to straightest ones in the store. Buy both of them. Mark one as a standard and put it away and only use it for checking the one you will use for things. Back when I was starting out this was as close as I could afford to getting a precision straight edge. Once you actually start checking them it is surprising just how far out some of them are.

To properly fix it you will need some true precision tools.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> It sounds like your machine may be bad enough that you do not need a "precision" straight edge to be able to see it.
> 
> Go to the store and look at metal meter rulers, the wider and the thicker the better. Take the ones that are there and place them edge to edge and hold up to the light the less light the closer they match. when you find a good match turn one of them over and check again. to see if they are still good. then flip the first one to see if it is still good. This will not get you precision straight edges but it will get you the to straightest ones in the store. Buy both of them. Mark one as a standard and put it away and only use it for checking the one you will use for things. Back when I was starting out this was as close as I could afford to getting a precision straight edge. Once you actually start checking them it is surprising just how far out some of them are.
> 
> To properly fix it you will need some true precision tools.


I can machine a piece of flat 10mm stock on the Shaper about 600mm and get it to within about 0.02mm, I can then flatten it more with help of my teacher's granite plate, I really didn't want to spend more money with the lathe than I have to


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

I understand....no hurry for me and no need to buy a ton of expensive tools. When you set the saddle in your shaper indicate the surface where the carriage bolts to and the side where the rear hold-down bolts to, so the V and Flat are in the same alignment as new.   Then indicate the worn ways, you will be shocked I bet.    In order to be a good machine rebuilder you have to learn to be patient.  We have all the time in the world.  Do your regular job and your family comes first.   We are a bunch of friends helping each other.   I'm not going anywhere.  We can help when you have time again....I have a lot of other things to do too....lol...my wife has a list for me.


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## Flyinfool (Nov 5, 2021)

That may be close enough to verify where the problem may lie.

Besides, I know you are itching to play with the shaper......


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> That may be close enough to verify where the problem may lie.
> 
> Besides, I know you are itching to play with the shaper......


Hehe all I heard was yes


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> I understand....no hurry for me and no need to buy a ton of expensive tools. When you set the saddle in your shaper indicate the surface where the carriage bolts to and the side where the rear hold-down bolts to, so the V and Flat are in the same alignment as new.   Then indicate the worn ways, you will be shocked I bet.    In order to be a good machine rebuilder you have to learn to be patient.  We have all the time in the world.  Do your regular job and your family comes first.   We are a bunch of friends helping each other.   I'm not going anywhere.  We can help when you have time again....I have a lot of other things to do too....lol...my wife has a list for me.


I will try to check the warp first with the straightedge and see if I should mess with it or not... 
Yes we have a lot of time, and still too Many projects


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

You have a hand-scraper?  I can send you a PDF file of how to make one.  Also a HSS blade would help or I can tell you how to make one out of some HSS -  You need to harden it.  That's how I did it when I was younger then you and couldn't afford carbide.   HMMM Im thinking of a way I can mail you a book called Machine Tool Reconditioning by Edward Connelly.  It shows how to rebuild, build and recondition machines.  I see them, but maybe Santa Clause will come early for you.....lol...The book is Copyrighted and it can't be copied and emailed.   I know the copyright holder and he has sued people who do that,  won too.   I have your email and will email you about it.   I need to go do some work on my wifes list.  It will be winter here in a few weeks.  It is 7.22 C here today in a month it will be - 23 C here and the ground will be frozen.    Have a go.   Later my friend.


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> You have a hand-scraper?  I can send you a PDF file of how to make one.  Also a HSS blade would help or I can tell you how to make one out of some HSS -  You need to harden it.  That's how I did it when I was younger then you and couldn't afford carbide.   HMMM Im thinking of a way I can mail you a book called Machine Tool Reconditioning by Edward Connelly.  It shows how to rebuild, build and recondition machines.  I see them, but maybe Santa Clause will come early for you.....lol...The book is Copyrighted and it can't be copied and emailed.   I know the copyright holder and he has sued people who do that,  won too.   I have your email and will email you about it.   I need to go do some work on my wifes list.  It will be winter here in a few weeks.  It is 7.22 C here today in a month it will be - 23 C here and the ground will be frozen.    Have a go.   Later my friend.


I have plenty of carbide and hss but I don't know how to make a hand scraper, you'll have to teach me :] also my teacher has a grinding wheel to grind carbide so I can Sharpen it... 
7°c? Here In Portugal is like 10°c in the morning and we already beat our teeth


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 5, 2021)

I found this one on eBay too;








						Sandvik Coromant Hand Scraper  | eBay
					

<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Sandvik Coromant Hand Scraper w/blade </p> <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">New, has some rust.</p>



					www.ebay.com


----------



## RafaelMarujo (Nov 5, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> It sounds like your machine may be bad enough that you do not need a "precision" straight edge to be able to see it.
> 
> Go to the store and look at metal meter rulers, the wider and the thicker the better. Take the ones that are there and place them edge to edge and hold up to the light the less light the closer they match. when you find a good match turn one of them over and check again. to see if they are still good. then flip the first one to see if it is still good. This will not get you precision straight edges but it will get you the to straightest ones in the store. Buy both of them. Mark one as a standard and put it away and only use it for checking the one you will use for things. Back when I was starting out this was as close as I could afford to getting a precision straight edge. Once you actually start checking them it is surprising just how far out some of them are.
> 
> To properly fix it you will need some true precision tools.


Is this normal or should it be tighter?? 
I've checked the saddle with a straight edge and it's barely warped, maybe 0.05mm at most on the edges


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 6, 2021)

Rafael  and I have been private messaging too,  I told him to slide the feeler gage in between the top of the ways and between it and the saddle.  I also told him to clean the teeth of the rack with a brush and compare the rack up by the chuck and then in the middle of the bed where the carriage moves the most.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 6, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> Rafael  and I have been private messaging too,  I told him to slide the feeler gage in between the top of the ways and between it and the saddle.  I also told him to clean the teeth of the rack with a brush and compare the rack up by the chuck and then in the middle of the bed where the carriage moves the most.


I took this at both ends and the middle...


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## vtcnc (Nov 6, 2021)

RafaelMarujo said:


> Is this normal or should it be tighter??
> I've checked the saddle with a straight edge and it's barely warped, maybe 0.05mm at most on the edges


Well I think this photo tells much of your story. What exactly is the 80 and 100 represent on those feeler gages? .180"? Is that the approx. 5mm you have been referring to?

What about making some new bottom guides with a step in there to reach the bottom of the ways and take up that gap? Would be relatively easy to make on your shaper and would let you test out if it removes the variation in your turning.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 6, 2021)

vtcnc said:


> Well I think this photo tells much of your story. What exactly is the 80 and 100 represent on those feeler gages? .180"? Is that the approx. 5mm you have been referring to?
> 
> What about making some new bottom guides with a step in there to reach the bottom of the ways and take up that gap? Would be relatively easy to make on your shaper and would let you test out if it removes the variation in your turning.


The feeler gage 100= 1mm, 80=0.80mm, 
I'll maybe remove about 1.85mm to the guide so it binds on the bed when the screws are tight, and shim with some brass sheet around the screws holes so I can get it to run smooth and So I can compensate for when it wears out again


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## vtcnc (Nov 6, 2021)

RafaelMarujo said:


> The feeler gage 100= 1mm, 80=0.80mm,
> I'll maybe remove about 1.85mm to the guide so it binds on the bed when the screws are tight, and shim with some brass sheet around the screws holes so I can get it to run smooth and So I can compensate for when it wears out again


Ah. Ok. That is still alot of play and I think you will find that this is the source of your problem. Mill or shape the step in and see how it works. I think you will be surprised.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 6, 2021)

vtcnc said:


> Well I think this photo tells much of your story. What exactly is the 80 and 100 represent on those feeler gages? .180"? Is that the approx. 5mm you have been referring to?
> 
> What about making some new bottom guides with a step in there to reach the bottom of the ways and take up that gap? Would be relatively easy to make on your shaper and would let you test out if it removes the variation in your turning.





vtcnc said:


> Ah. Ok. That is still alot of play and I think you will find that this is the source of your problem. Mill or shape the step in and see how it works. I think you will be surprised.


That bottom guide did have a step, but nowhere near close to the bed of the lathe 
I'll shape the part that istn the step, so the step gets higher and can bind on the bed... 
Or I might drill and tap holes, and get a shim in there to act as a gib, idk, I'll have to think about it


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 6, 2021)

vtcnc said:


> Ah. Ok. That is still alot of play and I think you will find that this is the source of your problem. Mill or shape the step in and see how it works. I think you will be surprised.


That has to be a big part of the problem because the bed mightve been tight in the back side, but this part Could be lifted that 1.80mm, I can lift it by hand almost, even though its heavy


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 6, 2021)

The saddle is lower then new.  If you make new hold downs and leave the saddle low, the feed shaft and screw will bind up on the ends.  The saddle has to be raised up to the original height by putting a wear strip on the saddle ways.  Gentlemen, I am not guessing at a solution, I have done this many times before.  Those oil grooves being worn off should show you the saddle is worn.  You can check the back way by mic'ing it, say every 12" .  The back side is is square and will not be as worn as the front V's.  An easy way to test the wear in the saddle ways, is to dismantle the Tail-Stock, stone the TS ways a, set the lower 1/2 of the TS on the TS ways near the chuck and put a mag base on the bottom slide and indicator resting on the inside V and slide the TS base down the TS ways.   You can repeat that test on all the saddle ways.  The test will show wear in the middle and the ends should be the same.  The one photo doesn't show the rack.   If the rack doesn't have noticeable wear then you can use the rack and rack pinion to get the correct clearance or what the shim should be.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 6, 2021)

Ddelivery shows how I would add the Rulon on too.


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 6, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> Ddelivery shows how I would add the Rulon on too.


Did you see the pictures of the rack I sent?


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 6, 2021)

RafaelMarujo said:


> Did you see the pictures of the rack I sent?


Yes.  You should examine the rack close up.  The depth of the teeth is not important, it's the pitch or width between  is the important part.  like this ---> on ends  V V V  ---  not  this in middle --->V( )V( )V


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 6, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> Yes.  You should examine the rack close up.  The depth of the teeth is not important, it's the pitch or width between  is the important part.  like this ---> on ends  V V V  ---  not  this in middle --->V( )V( )V


But it's not worn almost at all at least is doesn't appear to be


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## Flyinfool (Nov 6, 2021)

To measure the teeth for wear find a pin that will contact the face of the teeth at near 50% depth then measure the depth of that pin at various points along the rack. the more the teeth are worn the deeper the pin will sit.


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 6, 2021)

RafaelMarujo said:


> But it's not worn almost at all at least is doesn't appear to be


If that's the case then we must suspect that the machines way wipers were removed or wore out and I suspect the machine was used to grind shafts with a tool post grinder or belt sander.   Once you start to raise the saddle with the shims measure the top of the flat dove tail clearance surfaces - all 4 corners so they are all the same height.  I have a photo someplace or You Tube, I;ll look for it and add later.  Rich


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 7, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> If that's the case then we must suspect that the machines way wipers were removed or wore out and I suspect the machine was used to grind shafts with a tool post grinder or belt sander.   Once you start to raise the saddle with the shims measure the top of the flat dove tail clearance surfaces - all 4 corners so they are all the same height.  I have a photo someplace or You Tube, I;ll look for it and add later.  Rich


OK Monday I will try and do that, and fix the shim that holds the saddle on the front of the lathe


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 7, 2021)

I know your limited on funds, but look for plastic items that are thin that you can use for shim-stock.   Here is what I use to figure out the thickness.  I slide in shims and slide the TS base with the indicator and mag base mounted on it and indicate the top od the saddle or the top of the 2 dovetails that are clearance surfaces or nothing rides on them.  https://artusworld.com/shim-stock    I was thinking do you have plastic milk containers?  What is the material your showing us?  Feeler gages?  You will need to use 6 - one on each side of the V = 4 and 1 on each end of the flat = 2.  If you don't have a source for Rulon 142, Turcite B or Grade Linen Phenolic.  I could mail you some.  You will have to find the epoxy glue.  I use 2 part 24 hour dry time.  But have used 4 hour dry time if thats all I can find.  Use the shim stock to figure out what size you will need.   Plus how much material you will have to shape (Shaper) off to get the right clearance on all 6 surfaces.  Remember to use the non wear clearance surfaces to indicate on to align the saddle on the Shaper.   Rest it's Sunday my friend.   Richard


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 7, 2021)

I was also thinking you should buy a inexpensive precision level.  Read this as you can get some good Polish levels on eBay Spain  https://beportugal.com/ebay-portugal/#:~:text=So, there is no official eBay in Portugal,eBay in Europe? The short answer is: Yes.









						6" Precision Maquinista Ingenieros de nivel de bloque de inspección de Barra de herramientas 0.0002"/10"  | eBay
					

Las mejores ofertas para 6" Precision Maquinista Ingenieros de nivel de bloque de inspección de Barra de herramientas 0.0002"/10" están en eBay ✓ Compara precios y características de productos nuevos y usados ✓ Muchos artículos con envío gratis!



					www.ebay.es
				












						8'' Master Precision Level in Fitted Box For Machinist Tool 0.0002''/10''  | eBay
					

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I found shim stock too:   https://www.ebay.es/itm/31370774909...G72eBce6vg%3D%3D|clp:2334524|tkp:BFBM-Iv8oZ9f


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 7, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> I was also thinking you should buy a inexpensive precision level.  Read this as you can get some good Polish levels on eBay Spain  https://beportugal.com/ebay-portugal/#:~:text=So, there is no official eBay in Portugal,eBay in Europe? The short answer is: Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Richard, I will try to do that this week, I can find epoxy, if you can send the Turcite or something I can paypal you the money! I will find any plastic shim and try to diagnose the wear


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 7, 2021)

RafaelMarujo said:


> Thanks Richard, I will try to do that this week, I can find epoxy, if you can send the Turcite or something I can paypal you the money! I will find any plastic shim and try to diagnose the wear


So, I have good news 
So I drilled and tapped holes for adjustments screws on the gib the I showed you had that 1.8mm gap, because de Gap was small for a whole hole gib, I drilled countersunk holes on the sliding side for aluminum dowels (bc I don't have brass on hand) and mounted everything back again, cleaned and lubrificanted everything, and took a few tests... I also disassembled the chuck and cleaned everything. 
I took a cut to clean the metal and zeroed, and I measured. 27.10mm
Took a 1mm cut on the dials, and checked. 26.10mm
The surface finish isn't greeeaaat but ok
Then I took a 0.1mm cut just to clean it and measured. 26.00 on the dot 
Suffice to say I'm more than happy, it's still not perfect. I also checked and in that distance I machined there's a 0.01 taper, getting bigger towards the chuck. 
My theory was that because the carriage wasn't tight on the ways the force from the cutting action forced the saddle to 'jump around'...  There's still alot of wear on the ways but at least now it's the lathe is workable!!!


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 8, 2021)

If and when your ready work on the ways, be sure to let me know.   Like you said it works and I will add it's better then no lathe...


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## RafaelMarujo (Nov 8, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> If and when your ready work on the ways, be sure to let me know.   Like you said it works and I will add it's better then no lathe...


Thank you for everything Mr. Richard 
Idk if I will spend more energy on this lathe, I will have to buy a better one if I want to pursue machining as a living, I'll keep this ond for odd jobs


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## gard (Jun 24, 2022)

RafaelMarujo said:


> Is this normal or should it be tighter??
> I've checked the saddle with a straight edge and it's barely warped, maybe 0.05mm at most on the edges


From post 80 you show what I think you refer to as a gib under the front inverted V way of the lathe with a 0.18 mm gap to the surface that the rack mounts to. I could be wrong but I do not think this gap should have any effect on lathe accuracy. When you are turning a part normally, the cutting forces are pushing the carriage or saddle down onto the inverted V way, the weight of the carriage and apron are pushing down, there should be no force trying to lift up the carriage. It looks like you are getting good results with the lathe so disassembly, cleaning and reassembly may of fixed something. I am guessing you could remove that gib altogether and the lathe would still work fine. I may be missing something here as I have only worked on a couple of lathes and none had a gib on the bottom of the front of the carriage.  There is one on the back.
Wear on the inverted V ways of the bed can certainty cause the lathe to cut a taper. If it's really bad, just holding your carpenters level on the sloping side may show a worn bed.


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