# King Kc-20vs Milling Machine



## HBilly1022

The closest tool store is an hours drive from my place and only offer King Canada milling machines. There are  no other tool stores in that city that sell milling machines. They have the the PDM-30 and KC-20VS in stock and I'm considering getting one of them. I've read some negative reviews for the PDM-30 so will focus on the KC-20VS. http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=36

Does anyone here have any experience with this machine and if so what are your thoughts.


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## kd4gij

I have not used that make. But it looks like my G0704 witch I have had for about 6 years and been very happy with.


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## WayneP

Hi HBilly

I bought one of those machines last april. I like it very much. I do a lot of small work, my biggest pieces being about 5" diameter. I work in mostly in aluminum and brass, and a bit of stainless once in a while. I did a lot of research last winter and found that this machine has quite a long table which would give me room to put a vice and a rotary table on it. I quickly added DRO's for the x and y as the indexed crank wheels are unimpressive. The little Z readout on the quill is handy though. I also bought the R8 x 3/4 collet from Tormach along with a collet set from them. It all works well for me. There is a mountain of info for this machine on the net for converting it to CNC as kd4gij is correct when he says that its the same machine as a G0704. I may do this some day. 

Some negatives: 

1) don't plan on getting a whole lot of aftermarket support from King, their customer support guy from Montreal is pretty much useless. 
2) I find that when I mount any milling cutter over about a 1/2" the quill will not hold it tight enough, it loosens while cutting, works downward and screws up the work. Its happened several times to me. Its related to the tightening nut on the drawbar, I can't get it tight enough to hold and if I tighten too much the whole thing spins loose.....so a bit of a design problem there.....and I asked King about it and their response was, basically..."good luck"

If ANYONE out there knows a cure for this please let me know! But as I said before I mostly do small stuff and it works fine on any cutters under 1/2". 

Wayne


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## hman

Wayne -
OK, I'm just speculating ...  but the specs on the KC-20 state that the spindle is R8.  If your larger collets are losing tools, I'd say it was time to buy some better collets. 
PS - When tightening the draw bar, is there a way to lock the spindle rotation, so you can tighten things up snugly?  If not, you might want to look for or rig up a way to lock the spindle.  No need to make it "farmer tight," but pretty snug is good.


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## HBilly1022

Thanks for the replies and comments. Looks like this would be fine for me. 

I checked the Grizzly G0704 and there are some differences that I noted. One is the Grizzly has 12 amp motor vs the KC only being 4.8 amps and the Grizzly has a 15" swing vs the KC only being 13". So not sure if they are the same machines. In any case, it appears the KC will work for me. I'll still do some more research but will likely get one of these unless a good deal comes up on a used bigger machine.


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## David VanNorman

How about aR8 to weldon shank tool holder with a set screw. How about  a R8 to ew30 or 40 collet set.


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## Dorn

Comparing  the two machines:
*KC-20VS = 308 lbs with a square column
PDM-30 =772 lbs with a round column
*
So the pdm-30 is significantly bigger and will be able to take heavier cuts, but if you have to change the height of the head in the middle of a job you will have to do something to find where your zero is.  Some people really worry about that re-registration problem.  I have  an RF-30 (a similar machine) and with a little care I haven't found it to be a big problem.


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## HBilly1022

So I just got back from the big city and went to the tool store (KMS Tools) to check out the mills. I may rethink this after seeing the 2 machines side by side. As noted by Dorn the PDM30 is WAY more substantial than the KC-20VS. The 30 has a much larger motor plus it comes with a tilting vice and 3 face cutter, but is only $200 more than the 20. Doesn't seem to make sense. Maybe the VS motor on the 20 costs more and the tilting head may be a great feature. But not having ever used a milling machine I have no idea whether the tilting head and variable speed are more important than the extra power and weight of the 30. The 20 also comes with a DRO and the 30 doesn't. Again not sure how important that is. I suppose I could always add one, as I've noted others have done with their lathes and mills.

Dorn; the 30 has a 5" spindle stroke vs a 2" on the 20 so I doubt that re registering the cut depth would be an issue very often. How long have you had the RF-30, who makes it and are you happy with it?


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## hman

IMNSHO:
More substantial and larger motor - big plus for the 30
Variable speed motor vs changing belts - probably not a big decider.  VS is nice, but I change belt ratios in my drill press and RF-30 clone.
Tilting head - probably not a big decider.  I either tilt the workpiece in the vise (checked by an electronic level) or else use a sine plate.
Tilting vise - probably not that valuable, though if the 20 doesn't have a vise at all, that will be a plus for the 30
DRO - that would be a definite plus for the 20.  I *HATE* having to count dial turns.  Can you get a DRO installed on the 30 as an option?
Longer spindle stroke - definitely helpful


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## HBilly1022

Thanks hman / John, you make some very good points. I too don't mind changing spindle speeds on my drill press but on the Lathe it is a little more involved, especially when changing from low range to high range. But from what I see the PDM30 has a similar head to that of a drill press and likely wouldn't be a big deal to change.

I found the thread that gave the PDM 30 bad reviews but most of those were generic negative comments like "that's not a milling machine, it's a glorified drill press - if you want a milling machine get one". Not based on personal experience just supposition. That thread seemed to gather steam as others chimed in about mill drills not being milling machines. There were however 2 posts from people stating they had personal experience with that machine. One stated he had his for 6 years and was happy with it, although it did need to be readjusted on occasion. The other one stated he had one for a day and sold it for $100 on Ebay. I have my doubts about one of these being offered for $100, so will discount that response.

As far as I know there is no option to get a DRO on the 30 so it would have to be an after market setup.

I did find one other comment on another thread where someone stated that the head of his RF30 clone had a tendency to twist because it was mounted on a circular column instead of a dovetail one. I have no experience with mills so don't know if this could be an issue or not. Seems to make sense though.


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## WayneP

hman said:


> Wayne -
> OK, I'm just speculating ...  but the specs on the KC-20 state that the spindle is R8.  If your larger collets are losing tools, I'd say it was time to buy some better collets.
> PS - When tightening the draw bar, is there a way to lock the spindle rotation, so you can tighten things up snugly?  If not, you might want to look for or rig up a way to lock the spindle.  No need to make it "farmer tight," but pretty snug is good.




Hi Hman

Yes my machine has the R8 spindle too. The collet that was holding my cutter when it slipped was the tormach collet. I don't think the collet is the problem. True, you don't want to overtighten a collet but "a bit tighter" seems to be required and when I try to do that the outer sleeve (the part you put the other wrench on when tightening) loosens off. This sleeve that keeps loosening off is the main reason you can't snug the collet up. At some point I will take it all apart and see what's going on, maybe loctite the thing if possible. I'm sure I can correct it but as I said before I don't often use mills bigger than 1/2" as most of my work is small stuff.

Hbilly

One thing you might want to do is a search on the G0704 and see what all the cnc guys are doing with this machine and the kind of parts they are making. There are home upgrades for power, cnc conversion, it amazing all the things guys are doing. I bought mine because of the possibilities but ALSO because all the work I do is small stuff in brass and aluminum and the machine works well for this. Its not a heavy duty machine, but I like it. The one problem I have with tightening the quill is not a biggie because there are videos (search hoss machine) showing how to take the quill apart etc for upgrading the bearings etc. You can get all kinds of online help with this machine, just not from King. I think grizzly ships to Canada now so you might want to look into that too. Busy Bee sells a version of this machine but the table is miniscule by comparison, I went for the bigger table.


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## mattthemuppet2

The PDM30 might be bigger and have a longer quill stroke, but you'll lose zero everytime you have to raise or lower the head. There are work arounds, but it doesn't make sense to start with a machine you have work around if you're paying new.

The PM727 is a worthwhile alternative in my book - it's what I'd get if I had the cash.


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## HBilly1022

WayneP said:


> Hbilly
> 
> One thing you might want to do is a search on the G0704 and see what all the cnc guys are doing with this machine and the kind of parts they are making. There are home upgrades for power, cnc conversion, it amazing all the things guys are doing. I bought mine because of the possibilities but ALSO because all the work I do is small stuff in brass and aluminum and the machine works well for this. Its not a heavy duty machine, but I like it. The one problem I have with tightening the quill is not a biggie because there are videos (search hoss machine) showing how to take the quill apart etc for upgrading the bearings etc. You can get all kinds of online help with this machine, just not from King. I think grizzly ships to Canada now so you might want to look into that too. Busy Bee sells a version of this machine but the table is miniscule by comparison, I went for the bigger table.



Wayne, I'm not sure what I will use the mill for but I'm pretty sure that 99% of the work I will do would be with steel. I note that you do mostly small stuff and use softer metals but some work with stainless. How does the 20 handle it? Do you think it would be good with heavier use in mild steel? I've looked at Grizzly stuff over the years and wish there was one in Canada. With our dollar being so low right now I won't be buying anything from south of the line unless there is a super sale on. I looked at the Busy Bee stuff too and as you noted the tables on there machines are much smaller until you get into the more expensive mills and I'm not prepared to spend a bunch of money for something I will likely only use periodically. I've even thought of getting my lathe set up to do some small milling but it just makes sense to get a dedicated mill. I checked out the King website and looked at the owmers manuals for the 20 and the 30. The 20 manual looks pretty decent but the 30 manual is almost useless. Looks like it was printed a decade ago and the translation to English is terrible. 



mattthemuppet said:


> The PDM30 might be bigger and have a longer quill stroke, but you'll lose zero everytime you have to raise or lower the head. There are work arounds, but it doesn't make sense to start with a machine you have work around if you're paying new.
> 
> The PM727 is a worthwhile alternative in my book - it's what I'd get if I had the cash.



Not having used a mill yet, I'm don't understand the issue of loosing zero when the head is moved. Wouldn't the same issue be a concern with the 20? From what I recall the DRO reads the movement of the quill, so if the head was lowered with the 20 wouldn't zero be lost too? And since the 20 only has 2" of travel the head would need to be moved more often than the 30. Am I missing something? Another question is; does the 30 need to be trammed every time the head is moved up or down? I would think that would be a much bigger issue, if it was in fact necessary.


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## hman

HBilly1022 said:


> Not having used a mill yet, I'm don't understand the issue of loosing zero when the head is moved. Wouldn't the same issue be a concern with the 20? From what I recall the DRO reads the movement of the quill, so if the head was lowered with the 20 wouldn't zero be lost too? And since the 20 only has 2" of travel the head would need to be moved more often than the 30. Am I missing something? Another question is; does the 30 need to be trammed every time the head is moved up or down? I would think that would be a much bigger issue, if it was in fact necessary.


I have an RF-30 clone (round column mill) myself, and I'll be glad to explain the zero issue.  It comes from the fact that the column is round.  Every time you find that there's not enough quill movement (like when you want to mount a chuck in the spindle) to do what you want, you have to loosen the head and raise or lower it.  On a dovetail (or "square column") mill, the dovetails keep the head in the same X-Y position as it raises and lowers.  There is no such feature on a round column.  So every time you even loosen the head, you lose the original X-Y position of the spindle.

There's been plenty of schemes to keep the head aligned or alignable, but none of them have enough precision (say +/- .001" in both X and Y) to be of any use.  What you have to do every time you move the head is chuck up (or collet up) the 'ol edge finder and re-establish the 0,0 reference point.  If you have a DRO, that's just a button push.  If you're using dials, you have to reset them.

PS - as for losing Z zero, you're right about that, too.  But it's a lot easier to re-establish than X-Y.



HBilly1022 said:


> I did find one other comment on another thread where someone stated that the head of his RF30 clone had a tendency to twist because it was mounted on a circular column instead of a dovetail one. I have no experience with mills so don't know if this could be an issue or not. Seems to make sense though.


That comment might well have been related to what I've explained above.  OTOH, if the comment was meant to imply that the head would move around while milling, I'd say this guy simply didn't properly tighten the two bolts that retain the head!  I've NEVER had anything like this happen.

PS - Another possible issue with round column mills is tramming.  There is no provision on the mill for setting or re-adjusting tram.  If you're out, you have to remove the (heavy!) head from the column, dismount the column from the base, and then add shims (generally a cut-and-try method).  Theoretically, the mill is in good tram when it leaves the factory, so this is not too common an issue.  I've also heard reports of having the head trammed perfectly at one height, and discovering that it's not so good at another height.  I've not experienced this myself, but then, because I don't have a "real mill," I don't try to fool myself that I can achieve anything better than +/-.001" (or maybe +/-.002"?) accuracy.

I don't know what related or unrelated issues might come up with a square column benchtop mill.  And I expect it will be a *LONG* time before I can even think of affording a knee mill (what lots of folks call a "real" mill).  I'm very well satisfied with my RF-30 clone.  I'm also satisfied with my Harbor Freight 44991 mini-mill (with goodies added, of course).

Best wishes, whichever way you decide to go.


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## HBilly1022

hman said:


> I have an RF-30 clone (round column mill) myself, and I'll be glad to explain the zero issue.  It comes from the fact that the column is round.  Every time you find that there's not enough quill movement (like when you want to mount a chuck in the spindle) to do what you want, you have to loosen the head and raise or lower it.  On a dovetail (or "square column") mill, the dovetails keep the head in the same X-Y position as it raises and lowers.  There is no such feature on a round column.  So every time you even loosen the head, you lose the original X-Y position of the spindle.
> 
> There's been plenty of schemes to keep the head aligned or alignable, but none of them have enough precision (say +/- .001" in both X and Y) to be of any use.  What you have to do every time you move the head is chuck up (or collet up) the 'ol edge finder and re-establish the 0,0 reference point.  If you have a DRO, that's just a button push.  If you're using dials, you have to reset them.
> 
> PS - as for losing Z zero, you're right about that, too.  But it's a lot easier to re-establish than X-Y.
> 
> 
> That comment might well have been related to what I've explained above.  OTOH, if the comment was meant to imply that the head would move around while milling, I'd say this guy simply didn't properly tighten the two bolts that retain the head!  I've NEVER had anything like this happen.
> 
> PS - Another possible issue with round column mills is tramming.  There is no provision on the mill for setting or re-adjusting tram.  If you're out, you have to remove the (heavy!) head from the column, dismount the column from the base, and then add shims (generally a cut-and-try method).  Theoretically, the mill is in good tram when it leaves the factory, so this is not too common an issue.  I've also heard reports of having the head trammed perfectly at one height, and discovering that it's not so good at another height.  I've not experienced this myself, but then, because I don't have a "real mill," I don't try to fool myself that I can achieve anything better than +/-.001" (or maybe +/-.002"?) accuracy.
> 
> I don't know what related or unrelated issues might come up with a square column benchtop mill.  And I expect it will be a *LONG* time before I can even think of affording a knee mill (what lots of folks call a "real" mill).  I'm very well satisfied with my RF-30 clone.  I'm also satisfied with my Harbor Freight 44991 mini-mill (with goodies added, of course).
> 
> Best wishes, whichever way you decide to go.



Thanks John, great info there. I never thought about the x y being lost and now that you explain the issue I can see this could happen frequently and it would be a hassle. I don't know how to use an edge finder but if I end up getting the 30 I guess I will have to get one and learn how to use it.


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## hman

An edge finder is pretty much essential for *any* milling task on just about *any* mill.  It lets you establish exactly where your part is located. 

Easy enough to use.  Usually they have a ½" diameter shank and an extension that's a very precise 0.200" diameter.  You chuck it up or hold it in a ½" collet and run the spindle at a few hundred RPM.  With the edge finder a bit outside the edge of the part, lower it so the end is a bit below the top surface of the part.  Slowly crank the part toward the edge finder.  Initially, the extension may or may not be centered.  As the part approaches, the extension will first center itself.  Then when it makes first contact with the part, it will suddenly (almost magically) shift to one side.  At that point, the center of the spindle will be exactly one radius (0.001") away from the edge of the part.  The first few times you use one, you'll probably want to run it back out, then back in very slowly the last few thousandths, so as to avoid going past the magical point.

Once you have the 0.100" position, you can raise the center finder clear of the part, move the table exactly 0.100" toward the spindle (using the DRO or the graduated dial on the crank), and set your X or Y zero.  Repeat for the other axis.  The whole process is almost faster than reading about it.  There are probably some youtube videos on how to use an edge finder that you can watch if you find my description at all unclear.

As I said in a previous post, I have a round column mill, and it doesn't really bother me too much.  But then, I don't tend to get in a big hurry.

PS - Rick Sparber, another member of this forum, also has a round column mill.  He's written a goodly number of articles over the years.  You can find them at http://rick.sparber.org/ma.htm#4

Two that might be of immediate interest to you are:
http://rick.sparber.org/msu.pdf
and
http://rick.sparber.org/mhp.pdf


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## HBilly1022

John, your explanation is crystal clear and many thanks for that. Also thanks for those links. There is a wealth of info there and will keep me busy reading for a while.

Do you find yourself needing to re establish zero during most projects or is this something that  only occurs occasionally? 

Based on all the info received so far, my biggest concern would be tramming. I had to Google what that meant and found a site where someone had a very difficult time getting his round column trammed and it took him weeks trying different things before he finally got it. I hope that is highly unusual but if it's going to happen to someone it will likely happen to me. I had a lot of issues with my new King lathe and don't expect the King mill would be any different.

I'm really conflicted with these 2 choices. The 20 ($1600) is a 4.8 amp 110V machine (528W) and the 30 ($1800) is 11A @ 220V (2420W). The 30 weighs twice as much as the 20 and the 30 comes with some essentials to get started. The negatives with the 30 are the round column, lack of quill DRO and belt drive vs VS. If I bought the 20 it would cost me more than the $200 difference to buy the equipment that comes standard with the 30. So equally equipped the 20 would cost more. 

Looks like more reading is required. 

Please excuse my OCD. I obsess about decisions like this until the money is spent, then all is well again.


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## WayneP

HBilly1022 said:


> Wayne, I'm not sure what I will use the mill for but I'm pretty sure that 99% of the work I will do would be with steel. I note that you do mostly small stuff and use softer metals but some work with stainless. How does the 20 handle it? Do you think it would be good with heavier use in mild steel? I've looked at Grizzly stuff over the years and wish there was one in Canada. With our dollar being so low right now I won't be buying anything from south of the line unless there is a super sale on. I looked at the Busy Bee stuff too and as you noted the tables on there machines are much smaller until you get into the more expensive mills and I'm not prepared to spend a bunch of money for something I will likely only use periodically. I've even thought of getting my lathe set up to do some small milling but it just makes sense to get a dedicated mill. I checked out the King website and looked at the owmers manuals for the 20 and the 30. The 20 manual looks pretty decent but the 30 manual is almost useless. Looks like it was printed a decade ago and the translation to English is terrible.
> 
> 
> 
> Not having used a mill yet, I'm don't understand the issue of loosing zero when the head is moved. Wouldn't the same issue be a concern with the 20? From what I recall the DRO reads the movement of the quill, so if the head was lowered with the 20 wouldn't zero be lost too? And since the 20 only has 2" of travel the head would need to be moved more often than the 30. Am I missing something? Another question is; does the 30 need to be trammed every time the head is moved up or down? I would think that would be a much bigger issue, if it was in fact necessary.




Hi HBilly

You've gotten great answers on the zeroing. As to the mills ability on machining steel I don't really know as I seldom if ever machine it. On the stainless I use 1/4" diameter cutters with small cuts so its not much of a challenge. I still say that the best way is to research the guys converting these machines to CNC and have a look at their projects, see what they're making. (pm me if you can do that here and I'll send you some info on places to look). I'm sure they're doing steel parts. The thing I like about the mill I bought is that I can crank the head up and down when necessary and not lose my zero. It saves me a ton of time.


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## HBilly1022

Thanks Wayne, I looked at the Grizzly G0704 again and at some videos of it on you tube. The biggest issue for me though is that the G0704 has a 12 Amp motor and the KC-20VS only has a 4.8 Amp motor. So the Grizzly is 2.5 times more powerful than the KC so the Grizzly videos really aren't that helpful. I've tried looking for some youtube videos of a comparable Craftex and only found one of the CX600 ( a 600W machine) that shows a guy drilling a hole and it appeared the mill was struggling. The Kc-20 motor is slightly smaller than the Craftex so I would like to find some video of a 500W to 600W motor doing some milling in steel to see how it performs. I have no intention of converting to CNC so none of that interests me (well at least not right now). From the few vids I've seen so far the G0704 seems to have enough power for what I expect to do and would be happy with that. I just don't know how well the smaller King motor would perform in steel though. I'm still looking for vids of something similar.

Going back to the city tomorrow and will stop by the tool store to look at the 2 King mills again. Unfortunately the staff there aren't much help and really don't know much about mills or lathes. They just sell them.


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## WayneP

HBilly1022 said:


> Thanks Wayne, I looked at the Grizzly G0704 again and at some videos of it on you tube. The biggest issue for me though is that the G0704 has a 12 Amp motor and the KC-20VS only has a 4.8 Amp motor. So the Grizzly is 2.5 times more powerful than the KC so the Grizzly videos really aren't that helpful. I've tried looking for some youtube videos of a comparable Craftex and only found one of the CX600 ( a 600W machine) that shows a guy drilling a hole and it appeared the mill was struggling. The Kc-20 motor is slightly smaller than the Craftex so I would like to find some video of a 500W to 600W motor doing some milling in steel to see how it performs. I have no intention of converting to CNC so none of that interests me (well at least not right now). From the few vids I've seen so far the G0704 seems to have enough power for what I expect to do and would be happy with that. I just don't know how well the smaller King motor would perform in steel though. I'm still looking for vids of something similar.
> 
> Going back to the city tomorrow and will stop by the tool store to look at the 2 King mills again. Unfortunately the staff there aren't much help and really don't know much about mills or lathes. They just sell them.



Good point you make about the motor power. When I bought the machine from KBC tools in Windsor Ontario they warned me it was a "light duty" machine and perhaps this is why. I have a bigger benchtop mill that I also use and it has a bigger motor on it which I use for bigger x-y stuff so I'm not concerned. If you're only going to have one mill I guess bigger is better. The motor on this smaller King machine is a variable speed type and there is a small speed control knob and readout to indicate the speed. Interestingly...the CNC conversion guys show a re-powering mod for this mill where they put larger motors with appropriate  variable speed controls which they can then control with their CNC software, very interesting. There are aftermarket kits available to re-power this particular machine believe it or not and its what I'll do if/when I ever have trouble with the motor. 

The advice you're received about zeroing is good though so if you get a bigger machine make sure you can raise and lower the position of the head (or table) so that you don't lose your zero.....unless of course you don't mind spending the time to re-zero manually every time.


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## HBilly1022

Well, the decision was made today ............. I got the PDM-30. Hope I did not make a mistake but time will tell. A last minute check this morning before I left for town and I found some reviews of the RF-30,which appears to be a similar machine, and I found a couple of positive reviews from people that had theirs for a while. The one guy stated he had his for 6 years and uses it every day. He has been happy with it and notes the spindle bearings are getting worn and once they get bad enough he will just replace them but will keep the machine.

Wayne, after hearing you have a second larger mill, I think I made the right choice, since I am only going to have one mill.

Now I have to figure out what tools I need to get started while I wait for the mill to arrive. The one in the store was sold and there was only one other in BC (from KMS Tools anyway) and that one was on display. So I have a crated one being shipped from Edmonton. I looked at the vice that comes with it and it does not look to be a precision vice but I will make do until I get to try the machine for a while. The only other thing it comes with is a fly cutter and an R-8 device to hold the cutter. Since I have no experience with collets I'm going to have to do some more reading. From what the lady at the tool store described there are 2 approaches to using collets. One is to get a collet holder that is held in place by a threaded rod and then get different sized collets to match the end mill sizes I will use. She had a set of collets with holder there for $450, seems pricey. The other method was to get a bunch of different sized R-8 collet that have their own holders and are each held in place individually. The second system seemed less convenient but was 1/2 the price of the first set. EDIT, a little more reading and I find the lady at the tool store did not know what she was talking about or I misunderstood. The collet set she showed me must have been an ER32 set with holder, she also showed me an R-8 collet set but told me that it needed some kind of holder to keep it in the mill but I now think the collets are held in place with a drawbar that should come with the mill. The last thing she showed me was a set of endmill holders. Which system is better? end edit.

This thing is heavy and I am going to have to figure out where it's going in the shop and what sort of bench to put it on, wood or steel. I guess I could just buy the one that KMS sells but they do not  have any on display so I don't even know if it has shelves in the base. I want shelves and/or drawers for the various tools that I will collect over time. I have the same issue with the lathe I got a little while ago, which is temporarily sitting on a wooden/metal portable scaffolding. Not the best, as it is very unstable. Maybe one large bench for both machines would be better?


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## hman

HBilly1022 said:


> Well, the decision was made today ............. I got the PDM-30. Hope I did not make a mistake but time will tell. A last minute check this morning before I left for town and I found some reviews of the RF-30,which appears to be a similar machine, and I found a couple of positive reviews from people that had theirs for a while. The one guy stated he had his for 6 years and uses it every day. He has been happy with it and notes the spindle bearings are getting worn and once they get bad enough he will just replace them but will keep the machine.


I think you made the right choice.  Lots of very good work has been done on RF-30 clones.



HBilly1022 said:


> Now I have to figure out what tools I need to get started while I wait for the mill to arrive.  <snip>  The only other thing it comes with is a fly cutter and an R-8 device to hold the cutter.


WHAT???? Not even a drill chuck?  Ah, well.  Guess you'll have to put one of those on Santa's wish list.  Plus lots and lots of other goodies ... parallels, end mills, edge finder, collets (see below), hold-down set, etc. etc. etc.  Then eventually a DRO, and maybe a power feed for the X axis.  The fun never stops.

PS - Just about all RF-30s come with a face mill (what you called a fly cutter), and few people ever end up using it.  If yours is anything like the one I got, it's difficult to set up and can only mill the top surface of a part.  Absolutely useless for the sides!



HBilly1022 said:


> The collet set she showed me must have been an ER32 set with holder, she also showed me an R-8 collet set but told me that it needed some kind of holder to keep it in the mill but I now think the collets are held in place with a drawbar that should come with the mill. The last thing she showed me was a set of endmill holders. Which system is better?


You're right about the fact that the drawbar is used to hold the R8 collets.  Also right about the lady not quite knowing what was what.  R8 is pretty universal for mills.  ER32 is nice, and a bit more versatile because the collets have larger grip ranges (so you could use metric end mills if you wanted to), but as you noticed, it's kinda pricey.  The ER holder is held in the mill with the same drawbar, by the way.

End mill holders are OK, and several people swear by them, because if you fail to correctly tighten an R8, the cutter can slip upwards or downward, depending on cutting conditions (think of the forces generated when the spiral-shaped flutes are cutting on the side of a large block of material).  That said, I've never had any trouble with an R8 slipping in either of my mills.  End mill holders are also longer than collets, so the cutter extends further from the spindle.  Might be a disadvantage in tight situations, or an advantage when switching between a drill chuck and a milling cutter, as it might allow you to use both without moving the head.

IMHO, you would be OK to start with a relatively inexpensive set of Chinese R8 collets, such as the ones sold by CDCO:
http://www.cdcotools.com
Enter "collet" in the search box and scroll down to the R8s.  I have #25128 or #25129, forget which, and have been pleased with it.

Best wishes, and congrats on your purchase!


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## HBilly1022

Thanks John, your comment about making the right choice provides a little more assurance. Your right about the drill chuck being included with the package and the "Fly Cutter" being a face mill. I'm sure it will take a while before I get some of the jargon right. I don't know how much use I will get from the drill chuck since I already have a 17" drill press and based on your comment about the face cutter, it looks like that won't get much use either. So the first thing I need to do is get some end mills and holders/collets, maybe a machinist square too. Let the fun begin.


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## WayneP

HBilly1022 said:


> Thanks John, your comment about making the right choice provides a little more assurance. Your right about the drill chuck being included with the package and the "Fly Cutter" being a face mill. I'm sure it will take a while before I get some of the jargon right. I don't know how much use I will get from the drill chuck since I already have a 17" drill press and based on your comment about the face cutter, it looks like that won't get much use either. So the first thing I need to do is get some end mills and holders/collets, maybe a machinist square too. Let the fun begin.



Tormach has  good R8 collet holders and collet sets. Glad you made a decision and I hope the machine works well for you...I will certainly study this machine when considering future expansion of my shop


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## Thriller

HBilly1022 said:


> Thanks John, your comment about making the right choice provides a little more assurance. Your right about the drill chuck being included with the package and the "Fly Cutter" being a face mill. I'm sure it will take a while before I get some of the jargon right. I don't know how much use I will get from the drill chuck since I already have a 17" drill press and based on your comment about the face cutter, it looks like that won't get much use either. So the first thing I need to do is get some end mills and holders/collets, maybe a machinist square too. Let the fun begin.



So now that it has been a few years what is your feedback on the machine? I am going through some of the same questions you had. Currently I have one of the combination lathe milling machines but am looking for a dedicated milling machine that is on the smaller side of things so it will fit my smaller shop.


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## HBilly1022

Thriller said:


> So now that it has been a few years what is your feedback on the machine? I am going through some of the same questions you had. Currently I have one of the combination lathe milling machines but am looking for a dedicated milling machine that is on the smaller side of things so it will fit my smaller shop.



Sorry for the delay. I haven't been on this forum for a while. In any case, I am very glad I went with the heavier machine. Even with this one I can push a little too much and have to take lighter cuts or reduce the feed speed. The issue of moving the head and having to reference again, turned out to be a minor issue. It takes very little time to do it. Oh, another thing ...... I do use the drill chuck a lot, even though I have a dedicated 17" drill press. The mill is much heavier, more stable and I can use the DRO's to get consistent drill locations. Having a table with the ability to move in the x and y directions just makes the mill/drill so much nicer to use for drilling.


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