# Another Pm Lathe & Mill Purchase Question



## Hozzie (Sep 14, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

New to the site and like many others here, a new guy to machining.  I am looking to purchase both a lathe and mill and have basically narrowed it down the the PM brand, but still have some uncertainty about what models to go with and would like some educated feedback.  I have read up and down about China vs. Taiwan so I get that Taiwan is better, but I have a limited budget and am wondering if I should give up something in one area to gain in another.  I also understand that I could look at used equipment, but to be honest, I would rather buy new, even if I have to do a little work to make it right.  I like warranties.

My main use will be gunsmithing for myself and maybe helping some friends along with some odds and ends.  I am sure I will try some little projects I have seen online just because I like to make things with my own two hands.

So far I have priced out a PM1340Gt along with a 727M mill.  In the quote I upgraded to a 3 phase motor with VFD on the lathe and DRO's on both.  I then started to look at the 1440 series and wondered if I may not be better off to go with one of those and get a 932M with power down feed since the lathes are a bit cheaper.  I don't even know if I need power down feed, but it sounds useful .

I realize the 1340 is made in Taiwan and I know it is better quality, but for a home shop where I may use it 5-10 times a month, is it worth the extra money over the others.  I like the idea of variable speed which is the reason I added a VFD, but I really don't think it is a deal killer for me.  I know I can get the 1440BV if I want variable speed.  The 1440's also come with QCTP's so that saves a bit more.

At this point, I am thinking I may go with the 1440E-LB that has the DRO included and the 932M PDF and add a DRO.  Cost is comparible to the 1340GT with the 727m.  Am I missing something where one combo is better than another.  I can't afford a 1340GT and 932M both, so something has to give.  I even priced the 1236 which is probably enough lathe for me, but at the price of the 1440E-LB, I don't see why not to spend a few extra dollars for it if I go with a chinese machine.

Also, one thing I am not sure about is how limited would I be if I don't have up to 112 TPI threading.  How often do you normally go over 60TPI like on the 1440?

Thanks in advance.


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## tweinke (Sep 14, 2016)

Oh boy here we go,I just bought a 727 mill and am very pleased with my purchase. During the selection process I had what I call feature creep. If mill A has this and mill B has that what's a few more bucks, then mill C  and so on. I had to go back to the beginning reassess the budget and the features and capacity vs space to put said mill. The guys here will be more then happy to give valuable insights and help you blow the budget. I have no knowledge to speak of when it comes to gunsmithing so I'm sure someone will chime in shortly. Good luck with your decisions! I will be watching this thread.


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## Muskt (Sep 14, 2016)

I was faced with a similar decision about 2 years ago.  I finally settled on the PM1236 + Pm932PDF.  My previous machines were Grizz 9x20 + Grizz 0519.
Both were used as hobby machines.  I added a VFD to the mill since it came with a 3Phase motor on it.  I like the PM932 much better than the Grizz mill even though it is single phase.  I have NEVER used the power down-feed, yet.  I have experimented with it, and MY OPINION is that it is too coarse for boring.  

As for the lathe, I love the 1236.  I have had some issues with it, and Matt has worked with me--going so far as to offer to  "drop by" my home while on a R&R trip.  You cannot beat that kind of service.  I recently upgraded the 1236 to 3Phase & VFD.  Totally different machine, now.  I do not (yet) have a DRO on it.

As to the Taiwan vs China discussions.  I have never owned a Taiwanese machine.  I would guess that they are wonderful.  I just could not justify the additional expense for a machine to be used only for hobbies.  I can tell you that all 4 Chinese machines that I have owned required some degree of tweaking to take them from OK to VERY GOOD.  

I'll ramble a bit now.   I lived in Alaska for many years, & hunted big game there.  I was continually bombarded with "You cannot kill anything unless you shoot it with a Pre-64 Winchester--They all shoot better, & farther--They kick less--They rust less--They are clearly superior."  Well, that may have been true, but the Moose & Caribou that I killed never complained, or probably knew the difference. 

So, when you make your decision, my advice would be to spend your money wisely, buy what YOU want, and to remember that the machines are only the beginning of the seemingly never-ending purchases for additional tooling.  I would guess that after you make the additional purchase, you will (within a year) be required to add approximately 30% (as a minimum) more for tooling.  

Best to you in your quest
Jerry in Delaware


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## Hozzie (Sep 14, 2016)

Thanks for the responses so far guys.  I know I will have to add tooling, that isn't really a big concern.  I will buy it as I need it knowing it isn't cheap.  I agree feature creep has to be managed and realistic expectations set.  On the other side, I only plan to buy once, so I want to hedge my bets that I will be happy with whatever I buy.


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## mksj (Sep 14, 2016)

A complicated decision, especially if you are starting from scratch with no tooling. Plan on a chunk of additional cost for everything else.  They are all good choices, some of it depends if you just wanted to get started and not deal with the wiring/VFD, and also the kind of work you will be doing and how big do you really need. The phase motors are inherently smoother than single phase, so there is some advantage in surface finish. Variable speed is nice, you can dial in the RPM pretty seamless and you get electronic braking,  This is a big plus if you go with the 1340GT. The wrinkle in all this is the misunderstanding that you just connect the VFD to the motor and you are off an running. Doesn't work that way. The PM1340GT is probably the easiest to convert to a VFD, I previously posted simple wiring instructions on how to do this. If you want variable speed on a 1440 then go with the PM1440BV, I would buy it that way up front, as opposed to a retrofit. Then non-VFD 1440LB  single phase version is a great deal at this point, includes most everything and a DRO.

So, where to go. I bought once, I use my PM1340GT occasionally, but the fit and finish/precision was well worth it for me. I doubt I will buy another Chinese (mainland) machine again. The whole package, chucks, etc. are very good.  If you want to go a bit smaller in the same machine, look at the Eisen 1236 with a DRO.  If I where to buy a lathe today, the Pm 1440GT would be a strong contender, but a big chunk of change. I look at it as a long term investment that hopefully you won't grow out of and have to upgrade down the line.  This was a factor, and my budget ended up being twice where I started. I do not regret it, but you can get great finished product out of any of the machines you are looking at.


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## Hozzie (Sep 14, 2016)

The Eisen was on my list as well, but it only has a 1.5hp motor.  I suppose I can get it with a larger 3 phase as well and VFD it.  One of the things I read which I don't like about the Eisen or the 1340 is it takes a belt change to change from hi to low.  This alone makes a VFD for them almost mandatory in my view so I can hopefully not have to change belts often.

The 1440BV I like because as you say, it has the VFD built in and it goes down to 40 RPM.  The 1440GT is out of my price range.  Realistically, I don't see myself ever needing over a 12" swing as I suspect most things I do won't be over 4", but you never know once I have the option.  At this point, I don't know what I don't know.


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## Eddyde (Sep 14, 2016)

IMHO, you shouldn't beat yourself up with trying to have it all. My only lathe for over 20 years was a 9" South Bend with change gears, only 6 speeds and a lantern tool post. Of course I wanted more features yet it always did what I needed it to do. Any of those machines your looking at will be like getting a Cadillac for your first car. You will have plenty of headroom to learn with and grow into. Tooling is going to be a huge expense so keep enough $$ leftover for that, Oh and then there are all those other machines... Welcome to the club


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## dieselshadow (Sep 14, 2016)

I did the same thing for a month or two. Actually it's been years I've been drooling over new equipment. I settled on QMT because of Matt's excellent reputation. 

Have you talked to him or anyone else there? Tell him your expectations, wants, needs, and yes, even your budget. He can help you figure out what you should get. 

I got a nice upgrade for a mill for $0 because I called him. He had a upgrade mill that had a DRO already mounted that he was willing to sell me, minus the DRO, for the same price as the lesser model because it was basically a demo model. You don't know what he can do with his current website. QMT is also working on their new website and their manuals. 

People who work this hard and earn my dollars will continue to receive my dollars. A dollar goes where it's best treated in my book. 

I know you got a quote, but have you really chatted with them to ask their opinion?


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## Hozzie (Sep 14, 2016)

I did talk to Matt before getting the quote.  He worked with me and I will talk to him again, but was really looking for any something to think about that I may not have considered.


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## mksj (Sep 15, 2016)

No belt change is really needed with a VFD lathe conversion, especially when you consider factory equipped VFD lathes come with only 2 gear speeds. They do use bigger motors on the larger machines, but you can get a lot of torque when using a VFD. I have been recommending going to a single belt speed on most lathe VFD conversions, the pulley size depends on the type of motor, but the ratio is such that the top lathe speed works out to ~2000 RPM. The major limitation on motor replacement is there are very few motors that will fit in the stock motors space on the 1236 and 1340GT. Look at the options, and then decide.


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## jbolt (Sep 15, 2016)

If you are looking at the 1440E-LB vs the 1440BV by the time you make them apples to apples with a DRO or VFD/Motor & Shipping they are a few hundred dollars different. I would look at the 1440BV in that case since it is already setup with a VFD, get the DRO and install it yourself. The standard accessories seem to be about the same between the two.


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## Hozzie (Sep 20, 2016)

Well, I was able to go look at a PM1236 that an acquaintance just received and it helped me to decide that it will be plenty of machine for what I want to do.  I am going to move up a bit in size on the mill to the pm932m w/o PDF and get 3 Phase motors, VFD's, and DRO's on both.  I think it will be a good compromise between overkill and hopefully not that feeling of wishing I had gotten something bigger.

Once I get it ordered and in hand I will post up some pics.  Thanks for the responses everyone.

Also, anyone who may find this later and is looking at the Eisen 1236gh, I talked to them and found out the warranty is only 1 year on parts and 90 days on electrical components.  Even though it was made it Taiwan, that didn't even get it to the starting line for me.


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## tweinke (Sep 20, 2016)

Sounds like a very capable pair of machines! Please do keep us posted.


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## Muskt (Sep 23, 2016)

Hello Hozzie.
I just read your post, and can share a bit since I have the same machines (except my mill is the PDF version).

I wanted to do the VFD/3Phase thingy on my 12x36.  I read all I could find about the process, and contacted MKSJ for some hand-holding.  I found a VFD on EBay for what I considered a great deal--Little did I know until a bit later that it required an additional board to be fully functional.  So, with the assistance of MKSJ, and a few other posts on this forum, I started, pretty much solo.

My install (inside the box) is not elegant--in fact, it looks like whoever did it had been partaking of the juice of the grape while in the process--I swear, I was not.

I located some 9 conductor shielded wire for the controls, a potentiometer from Radio Shack, & a bag full of spade terminals, & off I went.

I essentially got rid of all the relays, ropes, pulleys, bungee cords, etc that was originally in the box.  I left the wiring intact, since it was numbered and easy to trace.

The motor was sourced locally here in Delaware.

Here is a very abbreviated account of the install.

1.  Remove old motor, & install new motor.  
2.  Connect power cable from new motor to VFD.
3.  Connect power cable from VFD to commercial power supply (DO NOT COMPLETE THE CIRCUIT YET!!).
4.  Determine where the Fwd/Rev switch wires from the lathe are and how to connect them to the VFD.
5.  Get it all connected and plug it in & pray that none of the magic blue smoke escapes from any of the components.
                   After your blood pressure returns to something approaching your normal, proceed.
6.  Figure out where the wires from all 4 safety switches are and connect them in series with the Fwd/Rev switch (I put them in the common wire for the switches).
7.  Following the instructions (If you read Chinglish) connect the potentiometer.

       There is one (at least one) glowing fault in this setup.  The brake switch will reset/restart the VFD if you remove your foot--this is dangerous.  I figured     out how to work around that with my VFD--I suspect any other brand can also be worked around.

       There is one more item that I have not completed as of yet--& I am not sure I will add it--but time will tell.   I have no JOG button functionality--I did not attempt to reconnect it.

OK, OK------So this is a very light hearted, tongue-in-cheek response.  I intended it to be that way.  The whole process is (at least to me) somewhat scary.
A fairly large investment is involved, and the level of danger can be pretty high.  A reasonable estimate for my install is about $650--not including the 2 trips to the motor dealer.

Here is the title of the posts about the VFD install.  Jump to #52.  The post is on this forum.  Sources for the motor are included.  
*Surface Finish Issues On 12x36 (long Post) + Kb Electronics Vfd Install*

I do not claim to be an expert on VFD installs--quite the contrary.  I was successful in getting it to work.  If you desire to PM me, I will be glad to assist in any manner I can.

Jerry in Delaware


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## Hozzie (Sep 24, 2016)

Thanks for all of the info.  I am getting the machine's supplied with the 3 phase motors from Matt as well as the VFD's.  I believe they are Hitachi's.  I am sure I will have questions once I get everything and start to get it setup.  I am pretty good with electrical, but I have a good friend who is an EE so I will probably recruit him to come help me to make sure I don't kill myself or the machines  .


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