# A bit of History of Taiwan built machines



## Richard King (Jul 13, 2013)

A bit of History of Taiwan built machines. .  

I see in the South Bend forum they are talking about Taiwan build machines and I thought this may give you a new prospective.  

Taiwan machines were once know as "Disposable" machines because the new machines were very accurate for about a year of production use and then lost accuracy and were scrapped or sold.  They were so cheap you could spend less on a new one then getting it rebuilt.  I saw this as a local company in the early 80's at SIFCO who bought a Kent Grinder and it looked great, was easy to run and very accurate for about a year and they sold it and bought a new one.

 In 1984, the President of Kent MR. C. S . Lu and then a senior member of TAMI the Taiwanese Association of Machinery Industry and a Director of CMD the predecessor of PMC (Precision Machine Tool Research Center) the Taiwan Machine Tool Inspectors, similar to the Japanese JIS and ASME here in the USA.  Mr Lu told me that when the Japanese engineers came to Taiwan to help set up some factories they showed them to scrape 5 to 10 points per inch (PPI) with about 10% contact of the points (POP). As the Japanese didn't want to teach them all the secrets or how to scrape, so  the Taiwanese could not build better machines then they built.  This conversation happened in his office after he hired me to come Taiwan and teach scraping. 

I spent 6 weeks back then teaching at 3 factories where they for the first time brought employees of several machine builders together to learn as a team to help build-up the Taiwanese skill level to compete with the Japanese.  I also lectured to engineers and taught machine assemblers basically the same class I teach today here in the USA  to you.  CMD brought me back in 1985 and 1987 where I worked as a process engineer and we toured factories and trying to show them better ways to build machines.  Some of my friends also went there to teach classes.  Bill Johnson taught Fanuc controls, Andrew Devitt taught how to use Moglice, Don Martin of Lion Precision who taught spindle assembly and testing,  

As time went on the Taiwan machines began to lose that reputation of disposable machines.  I also went back in 2009, 2010 and 2011 to teach the next generation of scrapers, also the engineers and even had a week of teaching several of the Presidents and managers of machine tool builders who had always wanted to know how to scrape.  In 2009 I was presented an award from TAMI which I am very proud of.  Shown below.  

A friend of mine up here in Minnesota  over the last 3 years has purchased new CNC machine tools made in Japan and Taiwan.  He has done tests and he has found the Taiwanese machines outclass the Japanese made machines. If you are considering buying a new machine I would say you may pay more for a Taiwanese machine then other Asian made machines, but it will be worth it to you.  I also love seeing you buy the used machine tools that were made in Europe and here in the USA  I really love seeing how our members of Hobby Machinist rebuilt their machines making them look like jewels.   I know some of you may think I am blowing my own horn here, but you can say that just about anyone who tells about the history they have lived through.  
The pic's are the award, me receiving it, a Taiwanese newspaper  article of the training and PMC in Taichung Taiwan where I taught my classes. 







	

		
			
		

		
	
It sounds like I will be going back to Taiwan this October where PMC has arranged a reunion of my students.  I hope some of my USA and European students can attend too.  What an emotional time that would be!
Rich


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## TOOLMASTER (Jul 13, 2013)

i just bought an old jet made in T.   VERY WELL BUILT. better than anything i looked at in the 2000-3000 range..got it for 300 :roflmao:


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## gheumann (Jul 13, 2013)

Hi, Richard

I realize your original post was a year ago but I missed it the first time around. Just wanted to say Thank You - a great job with great results. I have a lot of respect for the Taiwanese machinery - and people need to know it is a whole 'nutha level from the (mainland) Chinese machines.

Cheers

/Greg
http://www.blowsmeaway.com


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## mikey (Jul 13, 2013)

Very interesting bit of history, Richard - thanks for sharing! I've always had the impression that Taiwanese tools were of much higher quality than most Asian tools, Jet Tools being my primary exposure to them. I often wonder if the quality mindset is cultural; Taiwan, Korea and Japan produce some of the finest products in the world but China ... not so much. I have read that getting a poorly made product past the quality control inspectors is a point of pride for Chinese manufacturers and whether or not this is true it suggests a significant cultural difference. 

To be consulted by the major manufacturers of a country says that you are *the best* in your field; being formally recognized for your contribution to their success is icing on the cake and well deserved. Any man who can positively make a difference in the lives of so many people - the managers, workers and their families, and consumers of their products - has every right to the sense of pride and accomplishment you must feel. 

Congratulations, Richard!


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## Richard King (Jul 13, 2013)

I have taught a lot more folks here in the USA and hope to teach more before I retire and I hope the information I give you doesn't not come across as I am bragging. I am sure many if not most of the moderators here have some stories too to tell and can teach you as much as I can in their fields too.  If I am guilty of something it is trying to teach and telling more information of my history.  I have tried to spend more time here then the other boards trying to help my friends and readers who are sponges for info. 

Back to the post:

I can remember when I was a kid people called radios and machines made in Japan were Japanese junk and now look at what they have evolved into.  There were many reasons Taiwan evolved.  I am saying this as I have personal Taiwanese friends there who have told me they wanted to make the best machines in the world.  I have lived there for close to a year on and off over the years.  In the 80's they had practice air raids as their army was always on alert thinking China would invade, so the people there wanted to learn as much as they could in all the fields as fast as they could to support the country.  I was not alone teaching there, they had German machine builders, Laser people, control mfg's, Rulon and Turcite people teaching. I believe I was the only one teaching scraping and machine building techniques associated with scraping, through TAMI, CMD and now PMC.  

They asked me if I know anyone who knew about Fanuc CNC controls as the Japanese would not sell them the current controls they were selling on their new machines.  They always felt they were at odds or at a manufacturing war with the other machine manufacturing countries and wanted to excel.   The last classes I taught there was when Taiwan was slow in building machines, but they had the foresight to have me come then when more factories could send the workers.  PMC who hired me gets grants from the machine builders and Taiwanese Government. They were preparing for when the world economy would get busy again and their people would be ready.  

As I had figured I have already been accused of blowing my horn for the history lesson.  I hope the members will see I am proud that I was able to help machine builders there.  Am am helping you make good choices in buying machines.  I know several Taiwanese companies have built plants in China too and I would bet in a few years China will be producing great machines too.  As Bill one of my GA students told me his 3 in 1 Chinese made machine is technically a good sound machine but the scraping and alignment was off a bit.


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## TOOLMASTER (Jul 13, 2013)

Now days with cnc is there really any good excuse for bad products?


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## Ray C (Jul 13, 2013)

Oh man...  You'd be surprised at how much manual work is done... I was shocked when I saw pics of Matt's machines being built.  When it comes to making a rough casting lathe bed actually look like a finished product, much of it is heavy duty, good quality manual equipment.  No fancy automation like on Detroit auto-maker lines where robot-assist machines are moving big stuff into position... Nothing doing.  It's all pulleys, manual cranes, heavy duty carts.  Nope, nothing fancy at all.  I'm sure the bearings, leadscrews etc are made in a more modern facility but the bulk is done the old-fashioned way.

Now tooling... that might be a different matter but, I have no inside info on what they use there.

Ray




TOOLMASTER said:


> Now days with cnc is there really any good excuse for bad products?


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## Tom Griffin (Jul 13, 2013)

When I was shopping for my mill in 1986 I was pretty disgusted with the quality of Bridgeport (Textron at the time), so I opted for the DoAll 200V, which was manufactured in Taiwan. It's a variable speed head with a 49" table and turned out to be very high quality, obviously made to DoAll specs. I still have and use it regularly and the only problem I had was with the variable head, which is pretty common with any of the brands including Bridgeport. It was nothing serious though and easily repaired. I guess by that time, the QC issues had been ironed out because it's definitely not a throw away machine.

Tom


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## Dog (Jul 13, 2013)

After looking for years for a non worn out American lathe in my area, just bought a Taiwan Lux Matter 13x40 and I'm very happy with it. Very tight, smooth and accurate. Noticed right off the scraped ways of the cross slide and compound, guess that's thanks to you!


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## Richard King (Jul 13, 2013)

Dog said:


> After looking for years for a non worn out American lathe in my area, just bought a Taiwan Lux Matter 13x40 and I'm very happy with it. Very tight, smooth and accurate. Noticed right off the scraped ways of the cross slide and compound, guess that's thanks to you!



No it was my students who did the work that need the thanks.  I am not taking credit for all of the scraping in Taiwan, but I tried my best to help who attended my classes.  As I said in other posts, I got paid for my services, but as many of my student who contribute here will tell you, I give 1000% all the time and am exhausted after each day of the class to be sure my students walk away with knowledge and able to pass on what I teach them. 

Thanks,   Rich


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## Rbeckett (Jul 13, 2013)

The PM, and JET machines are a great example of getting what you pay for in machine tools and equipment.  Matt asked for and also pays for better quality machines.  Most of the Asian machines all  have the same type of QC standards in place.  If your HF for instance and only paying bottom dollar, then the overall quality of a production run will only meet that standard.  If you are paying a premium price for machines the fit and finish on the entire production run will be better, up to and including nearly perfect machines.  I would tend to call those machines at that level "Semi-flawless".  So yes HF, Bolton, Busy Bee, Jet, Rong Fu  and many others do indeed offer the same machine, but the finishing job and assembly quality are paid more for, by companies like Jet and PM.   This means it is possible to get a good machine from HF and even a poorly made one from Jet, but the likely hood of that happening in both scenarios is getting much less.  So sometimes it really is better to spend that extra few bucks and get some added insurance that the machine you buy will be semi flawless or better.  The small shop machining movement has really started gaining a lot of momentum most notably in the last 5 years.  Prior to that the machine prices were  cheaper and so was the quality of the machine you received.  Now the prices are up a bit, but the overall quality and longevity are being up in just about every circumstance with  few exceptions..  So,  Taiwanese, and Mainland Chinese machines are undergoing another round of product quality improvements and updates to improve the older less rigid designs.  The engineers who are responsible for designing the parts have had a few years to practice there craft as well as the factory workers are getting better pay and better working conditions and that is reflected in the overall level of quality of the machines that arrive daily by the sea land container full.  Yes Asia can and still occasionally does make a dud, but it is happening fewer and farther between as time goes on.

Bob


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## Richard King (Jul 14, 2013)

Rbeckett said:


> The PM, and JET machines are a great example of getting what you pay for in machine tools and equipment.  Matt asked for and also pays for better quality machines.  Most of the Asian machines all  have the same type of QC standards in place.  If your HF for instance and only paying bottom dollar, then the overall quality of a production run will only meet that standard.  If you are paying a premium price for machines the fit and finish on the entire production run will be better, up to and including nearly perfect machines.  I would tend to call those machines at that level "Semi-flawless".  So yes HF, Bolton, Busy Bee, Jet, Rong Fu  and many others do indeed offer the same machine, but the finishing job and assembly quality are paid more for, by companies like Jet and PM.   This means it is possible to get a good machine from HF and even a poorly made one from Jet, but the likely hood of that happening in both scenarios is getting much less.  So sometimes it really is better to spend that extra few bucks and get some added insurance that the machine you buy will be semi flawless or better.  The small shop machining movement has really started gaining a lot of momentum most notably in the last 5 years.  Prior to that the machine prices were  cheaper and so was the quality of the machine you received.  Now the prices are up a bit, but the overall quality and longevity are being up in just about every circumstance with  few exceptions..  So,  Taiwanese, and Mainland Chinese machines are undergoing another round of product quality improvements and updates to improve the older less rigid designs.  The engineers who are responsible for designing the parts have had a few years to practice there craft as well as the factory workers are getting better pay and better working conditions and that is reflected in the overall level of quality of the machines that arrive daily by the sea land container full.  Yes Asia can and still occasionally does make a dud, but it is happening fewer and farther between as time goes on.
> 
> Bob




Bob you and Ray talk about Matt, who are you guys talking about?   Many of the new readers may have no idea who Matt is.  Please tell us.  Thanks, Rich


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## Ray C (Jul 14, 2013)

So sorry... Matt is Matt Nadeja of Precision Matthews at http://www.machinetoolonline.com/


Ray




Richard King said:


> Bob you and Ray talk about Matt, who are you guys talking about?   Many of the new readers may have no idea who Matt is.  Please tell us.  Thanks, Rich


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## Showoff (Jul 14, 2013)

Richard King said:


> A bit of History of Taiwan built machines. .
> 
> I see in the South Bend forum they are talking about Taiwan build machines and I thought this may give you a new prospective.
> 
> ...




 Thats awesome Richard..... Congrats to you.


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## btd (Jul 14, 2013)

"I can remember when I was a kid people called radios and machines made in Japan were Japanese junk...."

Amen brother.  I'm 61 years old and remember well when "Made in Japan" was a running joke.  Cars (remember Datsuns), radios, most cameras....all cheap and mostly worthless. That all started to change in the late sixties as I recall.  Quality improved exponentially and Japanese exports were everywhere.  This all seemed to peak in the late 80's as the Japanese economy tapered off.

I own a Taiwanese mill and horizontal band saw.  These are Grizzly imports and probably not the top tier quality wise but suit my needs perfectly (home hobbyist).

I have some small Chinese power tools...sander, 1/2 drill...all HF...and, yes, these are junk.  Having said that, I have no doubt that the Chinese could produce the highest quality items on the planet if that was their business model but so far cheap junk (produced by a cheap labor force with few government or environmental restrictions) seems to be working for 'em.


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