# Electrolysis, and cast iron.



## bigtrev8xl (Mar 1, 2017)

Electrolysis, and cast iron.
I been trawling the net for weeks, and totally confused as to whether electrolysis will harm/damage cast iron.
Has anyone tried it? if so what's your thoughts on it?
Thanks


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## RJSakowski (Mar 1, 2017)

In what context are you talking about electrolysis?  

If you are referring to using electrolysis to remove rust on iron pieces, you should be ok.  The work is the negative electrode and any surface rust is reduced at the expense of the positive electrode.  

Cast iron does rust and I would expect that it is similar to steel in that regard so, for example, cast in contact with a metal like copper and exposed to a salt solution will corrode.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 1, 2017)

Thanks for your reply
Sorry I should've made it clear, yes it's for removal of rust
I've bought a Pallas mill, probably made in 1940ish, and is need of a total strip down and refurb.
Thanks




RJSakowski said:


> In what context are you talking about electrolysis?
> 
> If you are referring to using electrolysis to remove rust on iron pieces, you should be ok.  The work is the negative electrode and any surface rust is reduced at the expense of the positive electrode.
> 
> Cast iron does rust and I would expect that it is similar to steel in that regard so, for example, cast in contact with a metal like copper and exposed to a salt solution will corrode.


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## mikey (Mar 1, 2017)

I've done bench vises, milling machine tables and anvils with the electrolytic process and haven't seen any adverse effects. You should be fine.


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## schor (Mar 1, 2017)

I think I answered you on facebook, yes you can do it no problem. It's actually a very good method if you have a large enough tank.


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## British Steel (Mar 1, 2017)

Done it lots of times, no damage and the parts stay the same.size (not the case with muriatic acid etc.)
I use a 30A transformer type "Start & Charge" 12 volt charger, with a 32A MCB wired in between transformer and rectifier bridge (they don't work too well on DC) so don't have to hunt for fuses when the inevitable short-circuit happens...
Wash soda from the Proper Hardware Shop, scrap steel (NOT STAINLESS) or arc gouging rods as anode, away you go 

Dave H. (the other one)


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 1, 2017)

Thanks everyone, much appreciated
This is the job in hand


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## Bob Korves (Mar 1, 2017)

If you are worried about things like hydrogen embrittlement of a machine, I don't think that would be a problem with cast iron machine parts.  Tool steel, perhaps.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 1, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> If you are worried about things like hydrogen embrittlement of a machine, I don't think that would be a problem with cast iron machine parts.  Tool steel, perhaps.


Thanks, I'll be doing the table on the mill soon


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## mikey (Mar 1, 2017)

You'll need a big tank! If you can't find one, build one out of wood and line it with sheet plastic. Use more or bigger anodes than you think you'll need to speed things up; just wire them in series. For large objects like that milling table, plan to leave it in the tank overnight - it will come clean.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 1, 2017)

Nice old mill!


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## barnett (Mar 1, 2017)

I use a 40gal trash can, I've done this for several years. I have used battery chargers and burned up a few, now I use a car battery and just charge the battery with the charger. the secret is in the amount of washing soda per 5 gal. The concentration of the electrolyte (soda to water ) is what controls how much current it will draw. I've learned the hard way, more soda is not always better. Its been a while since I did mine but I think about 1/2 cup per 5 gal is what I used, not certain though.
The trash cans are relatively cheap and come with a lid.
I think it works better on cast than on steel. Just my .02 cents.

Tom


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 1, 2017)

i have used electrolytic rust removal lots of times, it really works well
perhaps you may consider using  Carbon Anodes, the parts will easily clean with a toothbrush or the like.
when using a iron anode, there is sometimes a need for considerable scrubbing off of the resulting magnetite left from the electrolytic process

i have a detailed write up of the process in the following thread ,
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/thre...111b-105014-iqr-rebuild-by-ulma-doctor.14399/

i apologize in advance for the lengthy read, but it does contain some useful information in pertinence to your query.

i wish you the best of luck!


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## brino (Mar 1, 2017)

bigtrev8xl said:


> This is the job in hand



Wow! That is a beautiful old machine!

Any idea the date it was made?
What scale is that? What size is the table?

I'd love to see some more pictures!
I'll have to go search that name too.

Just Wow!
-brino

EDIT: I found some good reading here:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/pallas/


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## tq60 (Mar 1, 2017)

Ww have quite an elaborate setup that works well.

It is version 2...3 will be of a fiberglass tank for better fit.

Current we are using a 40 gallon trash can with a ball valve installed for draining.

We have 3 12 volt batteries with hf float chargers on each making a 36 volt battery.

We also have a 12 volt power supply made from a junked battery charger but used a bridge rectifier for output.

Added a shunt to measure current and a timer to control the contactor for the 36 volt battery.

12 volt supply is just switch control.

Both the 36 and 12 volt supplies can be connected in parallel as the bridge blocks high voltage from 12 volt supply.

Buss bars added for multiple connections.

We use drain cleaner lye as it goes after everything organic so it gets things clean and gets under the paint.

We wind up the timer it is 15 minutes and that usually gets things started then the 12 volts simmers it.

Works great for all ferrous materials cast or sheet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks all, I've done steel before, but was getting conflicting results for cast iron.
My understanding is brass is ok, but what about parts like the feed screw on the table?
Thanks


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 2, 2017)

brino said:


> Wow! That is a beautiful old machine!
> 
> Any idea the date it was made?
> What scale is that? What size is the table?
> ...



I can't find much information about the Pallas mill, apart from on www.lathes
It's about 4'6" high, and the table is 30" long.
 My mill has a single phase 3HP motor, not 1 HP motor as they show on www.lathes, I'll probably fit a 3 phase motor, and run it from the VFD inverter that I use for my Colchester lathe, so speed control/FED&REV will be a doddle.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 2, 2017)

Ulma Doctor said:


> i have used electrolytic rust removal lots of times, it really works well
> perhaps you may consider using  Carbon Anodes, the parts will easily clean with a toothbrush or the like.
> when using a iron anode, there is sometimes a need for considerable scrubbing off of the resulting magnetite left from the electrolytic process
> 
> ...


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 2, 2017)

"a detailed write up" Very impressive right up, I'll take some photo's when I get started
Cheers


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## markba633csi (Mar 2, 2017)

Nice (and rare) mill, do you have the base for it? Is the flat belt still hanging in there? 
Mark S.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 2, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> Nice (and rare) mill, do you have the base for it? Is the flat belt still hanging in there?
> Mark S.


It stands on the floor, it weighs around 1/2 a ton(1120 lbs), it's probably 4'6" high.  The flat belt is still there, but I'm looking to change it to a multi Ribbed Poly-V Belt, fit a 3 phase motor, and VFD for easy speed control/FWD&REV
Cheers


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## markba633csi (Mar 2, 2017)

Jolly good show as they say in England!  You blokes have such rare and interesting iron toys over there LOL
Mark S.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 2, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> Jolly good show as they say in England!  You blokes have such rare and interesting iron toys over there LOL
> Mark S.


So damn rare, there's very little about Pallas mills on the net


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## markba633csi (Mar 2, 2017)

How did you find it? If you don't mind me asking...
MS


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## Bob Korves (Mar 2, 2017)

I would stick with a leather belt, just to keep it like original.


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## markba633csi (Mar 2, 2017)

Not me I'd go high tech poly- old shool meets new
MS


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## cabinover (Mar 2, 2017)

Just throwing this out there but I've taken a lot of surface + rust off with 50/50 white vinegar and water. Will have to put something together and try this way though, sounds promising. Good luck!


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## Bob Korves (Mar 2, 2017)

Rare old mill, complete with all parts except one crank handle, in good restorable original condition, meets hot rodders...   ;-(   It is a slippery slope...  IMO.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 3, 2017)

I found it on ebay, £300, and only about 50 miles from where I live
It's missing the arbor, and arbor support, and the power feed shaft for the table
Cheers



markba633csi said:


> How did you find it? If you don't mind me asking...
> MS


~


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 3, 2017)

I'll do the main body of the mill manually, wire brushes etc, everything else I want to put in the 45 gallon tank I use for electrolysis.
Cheers



mikey said:


> You'll need a big tank! If you can't find one, build one out of wood and line it with sheet plastic. Use more or bigger anodes than you think you'll need to speed things up; just wire them in series. For large objects like that milling table, plan to leave it in the tank overnight - it will come clean.


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## willthedancer (Mar 3, 2017)

This is all very interesting to me. I'm going to have to give it a try sometime.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


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## Bob Korves (Mar 3, 2017)

bigtrev8xl said:


> I found it on ebay, £300, and only about 50 miles from where I live
> It's missing the arbor, and arbor support, and the power feed shaft for the table
> Cheers
> 
> ...


Those parts should be straightforward to replace...


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 3, 2017)

I'll get it up and running, then look to make the missing parts.
I'll have to make or convert the horizontal arbor myself, the taper is a B.E.S.A (British Engineering Standards Association) Taper, I've never seen or heard of it before
For the power feed shaft, I'm looking at a steering column universal joint/shaft
Cheers



Bob Korves said:


> Those parts should be straightforward to replace...


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## Bob Korves (Mar 3, 2017)

bigtrev8xl said:


> I'll get it up and running, then look to make the missing parts.
> I'll have to make or convert the horizontal arbor myself, the taper is a B.E.S.A (British Engineering Standards Association) Taper, I've never seen or heard of it before
> For the power feed shaft, I'm looking at a steering column universal joint/shaft
> Cheers


Don't know that much about your side of the pond, but here in 'murrica there are shops that specialize in making automotive, big truck, and other drive shafts.  All you really need to tell or show them are the connections on both ends and the minimum and maximum length required.  Then they make it.  These guys are machinists and can make parts or modify off the shelf parts to fit your needs.  It might also be a good idea to let them know the maximum offset of the two connections so they can confirm that the components they use will allow enough shaft angle and will telescope enough to do the job.


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## brino (Mar 3, 2017)

bigtrev8xl said:


> I'll have to make or convert the horizontal arbor myself, the taper is a B.E.S.A (British Engineering Standards Association) Taper, I've never seen or heard of it before



Yeah I saw that on the Pallas area of the lathe.co.uk site too and thought the same thing.
I just checked the Machinery's Handbook and it's not in there (that I could find).
I'll check a couple more references and post back if I find anything......

-brino


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## Bob Korves (Mar 3, 2017)

I looked as well.  Nothing.  Does not seem to exist on the web.  Hopefully Brino is smarter than I am and can find something useful for you...  Does Tony at Lathes.com answer email questions?


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## British Steel (Mar 4, 2017)

Hi Trevor, after some Google Ninja I found an old 'American Machinist' article* mentioning that the B.E.S.A  (forerunner of the BSI) standardised on Morse and Brown & Sharpe tapers in the 19-teens answer twenties for mill and drill tooling, try a rough homebrew gauge turned on the lathe to see which it might be?

Dave H. (the other one) 

* on 'galleyrack. Com' the search was "British engineering standards association taper"


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 4, 2017)

Thanks, I'd appreciate that, Thanks



brino said:


> Yeah I saw that on the Pallas area of the lathe.co.uk site too and thought the same thing.
> I just checked the Machinery's Handbook and it's not in there (that I could find).
> I'll check a couple more references and post back if I find anything......
> 
> -brino


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 4, 2017)

I'll look at the vertical head that was on the mill when I bought it, and measure that when I get a moment..Thanks 



British Steel said:


> Hi Trevor, after some Google Ninja I found an old 'American Machinist' article* mentioning that the B.E.S.A  (forerunner of the BSI) standardised on Morse and Brown & Sharpe tapers in the 19-teens answer twenties for mill and drill tooling, try a rough homebrew gauge turned on the lathe to see which it might be?
> 
> Dave H. (the other one)
> 
> * on 'galleyrack. Com' the search was "British engineering standards association taper"


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## brino (Mar 4, 2017)

RE: BESA tapers
I still have some searches going on my collected reference material, but so far no luck......

this link: http://www.stationary-engine.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-19571.html
says:
_Every mag I have handled with a taper spindle, has a BESA taper...even the French used this standard. Never stated in degrees, the slope of the taper is 1 in 10, regardless of taper size.._​
I'll keep looking.
-brino

EDIT: and another Pallas mill thread here: http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?t=77816
http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?t=77816


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## brino (Mar 4, 2017)

.....found one more online reference....

This site:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/WipacMagneto/wico11.htm
seems to list a BESA letter code to various magneto shafts

This page:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/WipacMagneto/MagTaper1.htm
gives dimensions for the three letter codes.

-brino


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## Ropata (Mar 4, 2017)

Cast iron is probably the best material for using electrolysis.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 5, 2017)

Thanks for that information peeps
Cheers



brino said:


> RE: BESA tapers
> I still have some searches going on my collected reference material, but so far no luck......
> 
> this link: http://www.stationary-engine.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-19571.html
> ...





brino said:


> .....found one more online reference....
> 
> This site:
> http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/WipacMagneto/wico11.htm
> ...





Ropata said:


> Cast iron is probably the best material for using electrolysis.


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## brino (Mar 5, 2017)

Here's the direct link to the American Machinist article from July 27, 1922 that Dave H. (@British Steel) mentions above.......

http://www.galleyrack.com/images/ar...133-pdf175-178-burlingame-standard-tapers.pdf

All thanks to Dave H. for the interesting article!
It has some great history like:







-brino

EDIT: By the way, I am sorry if this is tending down the path of a discussion of tapers rather than electrolysis of cast iron, but from the feedback the originator is on board with it!


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## todd774 (Mar 5, 2017)

bigtrev8xl said:


> I can't find much information about the Pallas mill, apart from on www.lathes
> It's about 4'6" high, and the table is 30" long.
> My mill has a single phase 3HP motor, not 1 HP motor as they show on www.lathes, I'll probably fit a 3 phase motor, and run it from the VFD inverter that I use for my Colchester lathe, so speed control/FED&REV will be a doddle.


Try this link:   http://www.lathes.co.uk/pallas/    or maybe that's the same one.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 5, 2017)

todd774 said:


> Try this link:   http://www.lathes.co.uk/pallas/    or maybe that's the same one.


Yes, that's the same one, but Thanks


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 5, 2017)

todd774 said:


> Try this link:   http://www.lathes.co.uk/pallas/    or maybe that's the same one.


Yes, that's the same one, but Thanks


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 27, 2017)

Hi. I'm back again, been busy removing paint with caustic soda and wallpaper paste, and rust from the mill using electrolysis, how should l clean the rust from the feed screws, phosphoric acid, or electrolysis?
I'm also building a tank from old doors lined with plastic sheet, so l can put the main body of the mill in, and use electrolysis to pull rust from the knee dovetail on the front of the mill
Thanks


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

Electrolysis works fine for feed/lead screws.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 27, 2017)

Great. thanks


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## 4GSR (Mar 27, 2017)

If you do the electrolysis on the leadscrew, take and put it up in the lathe and polish the thread with some pieces of 150 grit emery cloth. It'll take several passes, but after a while, it will start getting nice and shiney.  This is what I do when cleaning lead screws on the machines I rebuild.  Of course, if they are too worn, I make new ones.


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## bigtrev8xl (Mar 28, 2017)

4gsr said:


> If you do the electrolysis on the leadscrew, take and put it up in the lathe and polish the thread with some pieces of 150 grit emery cloth. It'll take several passes, but after a while, it will start getting nice and shiney.  This is what I do when cleaning lead screws on the machines I rebuild.  Of course, if they are too worn, I make new ones.


Yes will do, thanks


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## bigtrev8xl (Apr 9, 2017)

Update....things are progressing nicely


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## StepSide 88 (Apr 11, 2017)

Hi all.
First post.
Jumping in with both feet here since my hands have been in it for a week.
My love of electrolysis is how well it lifts the paint. So far my  'new' project has responded well to my spooge brew.
I use all three Mole asses Vinagarette and Electrolysis depending on how much care or time a piece warrents.
After the six drawers finish soaking in the M barrel I'll use it for electrolysis of the bed (will have to flip it).
My project is a SB heavy 10 RN 54"


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