# 2 Phase Motor



## invisabledog (Nov 20, 2014)

I just picked up an antique Champion camelback drill press.  It came with a General Electric motor.  The motor is 1.5 hp 220v 2 phase. Is there a way to get this to run on single phase?  The guy I got it from claimed to have had it running years ago, but didn't remember how it was wired.  There are only 3 wires in the junction box on the motor.


----------



## John Hasler (Nov 20, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> I just picked up an antique Champion camelback drill press.  It came with a General Electric motor.  The motor is 1.5 hp 220v 2 phase. Is there a way to get this to run on single phase?  The guy I got it from claimed to have had it running years ago, but didn't remember how it was wired.  There are only 3 wires in the junction box on the motor.



It's either three phase or single phase.  Post photos of the dataplate, the inside of the junction box, and any diagrams found inside the junction box or anywhere on the motor.


----------



## Jamiethesquid (Nov 20, 2014)

The 15" Regal Leblond I bought was also listed as "2 Phase".  I believe that this is a common misnomer for 220v AC as it takes 2 breakers.  But I will defer to the electrical gurus among us.  I hope that it is not something more nefarious than that, because I haven't got the lathe home yet.


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 20, 2014)

It's definately 2 phase.  It's a turn of last century motor circa 1916. 2 phase was common at that time.  Can't post a pic right now, will try to get one up in the next few days.


----------



## rwm (Nov 20, 2014)

Well 220 is kind of 2 phase because it uses opposite phases at +110v and -110v. Is there an older 2 phase that I am unfamiliar with? 
If you run it on 110v (which is single phase between the neutral and one phase) it will run at reduced power by at least a factor of 4 and may not run well at all.
It is really easy to run a 220v line if you are near the breaker box. In a pinch, you can find 2, 110v receptacles that are on opposite phases and use the hot leads from both receptacles to run it. I don't recommend that but it works.
R

EDIT:
Disregard the above sorry. I should have checked first. There is an old 2 phase power that uses offset phases. I just read about it. It's not 180 deg offset like current 220v.
Is it possible you could use two of the phases of a 3 phase VFD? I don't know if that would damage the VFD. Maybe you could put a dummy load on one phase?
2 phase power is still in use in Philly PA if you want to move!
R


----------



## John Hasler (Nov 20, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> It's definately 2 phase.  It's a turn of last century motor circa 1916. 2 phase was common at that time.  Can't post a pic right now, will try to get one up in the next few days.



As far as I know GE made no 2 phase motors.  Westinghouse did but I would be surprised to see one being installed as late as 1916.


----------



## John Hasler (Nov 20, 2014)

rwm said:


> Well 220 is kind of 2 phase because it uses opposite phases at +110v and -110v. Is there an older 2 phase that I am unfamiliar with?
> If you run it on 110v (which is single phase between the neutral and one phase) it will run at reduced power by at least a factor of 4 and may not run well at all.
> It is really easy to run a 220v line if you are near the breaker box. In a pinch, you can find 2, 110v receptacles that are on opposite phases and use the hot leads from both receptacles to run it. I don't recommend that but it works.
> R



220 is not two phase.  It's single phase with a center tap.  Two phase involves a four wire system with the voltages at 90 degrees.  It's what Tesla first came up with, which is why Westinghouse sold two phase systems for a while.


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 20, 2014)

From the little I understand about it, it can't be run off a vfd.  The three phase is 120 degrees apart and the 2 phase in this motor is 90 degrees.  Somehow the previous owner was running it in his shop, but I don't know how and he can't remember.  He had someone else hook it up for him.  It also runs at a lower rpm  than the normal 1725.  I can't remember what it said .  I'll have to check when I get back to the shop.


----------



## CluelessNewB (Nov 20, 2014)

Yes two phase was/is a thing.  Assuming you could find one and had 3 phase power available a "Scott T Transformer" would convert 3 phase to 2 phase.  My guess is it would be easier to find another motor.  That the motor only has 3 wires is very odd for a 2 phase motor.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott-T_transformer


You may find this interesting:  

http://www.phillyfacility.com/two_phase.htm


----------



## John Hasler (Nov 20, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> From the little I understand about it, it can't be run off a vfd.  The three phase is 120 degrees apart and the 2 phase in this motor is 90 degrees.  Somehow the previous owner was running it in his shop, but I don't know how and he can't remember.  He had someone else hook it up for him.  It also runs at a lower rpm  than the normal 1725.  I can't remember what it said .  I'll have to check when I get back to the shop.



You could use a capacitor phase shift network similar to that used for a so-called "static phase converter" to run a two-phase motor on single phase.  There also is a way to connect a four wire two-phase motor to a four-wire three-phase source.  The lower rpm just means that it has more than four poles.  Not uncommon, especially for older motors.


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 20, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies.  I really was hoping to use the vintage motor to power the press, but I think it will be easier and cheaper to just find a different motor.  Hopefully I can find an older one that has a vintage look.


----------



## John Hasler (Nov 20, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> Thanks for all the replies.  I really was hoping to use the vintage motor to power the press, but I think it will be easier and cheaper to just find a different motor.  Hopefully I can find an older one that has a vintage look.



I'd like to see some photos of it, especially of the data plate (if any).  Runnable two-phase motors are rare.


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 21, 2014)

John Hasler said:


> I'd like to see some photos of it, especially of the data plate (if any).  Runnable two-phase motors are rare.



I'll get some pics of it tomorrow when I get out to my shop.


----------



## mksj (Nov 21, 2014)

This is an short description of Two Phase power I found interesting, I was not aware of this type of 2 phase. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

Since they are phased at 90 degrees vs split phase 180 degrees, one would need a Scott Transformer ($$) or something similar. Some discussion of converting single phase to 2 or 3 phase http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...fd/single-phase-two-phase-three-phase-158678/

Would seem that it is more economical to replace the motor.


----------



## John Hasler (Nov 21, 2014)

mksj said:


> This is an short description of Two Phase power I found interesting, I was not aware of this type of 2 phase. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power
> 
> Since they are phased at 90 degrees vs split phase 180 degrees, one would need a Scott Transformer ($$) or something similar. Some discussion of converting single phase to 2 or 3 phase http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...fd/single-phase-two-phase-three-phase-158678/
> 
> Would seem that it is more economical to replace the motor.



A Scott T is just two transformers with appropriate taps.   A capacitor phase-shift network would be cheaper, though.


----------



## Alan Douglas (Nov 21, 2014)

While I've never run one, a two-phase motor ought to work on single phase, at half power.  Any ordinary induction motor is a two-phase motor, but the second phase is normally called the start winding.  With a capacitor in series with it, there should be enough torque to start the motor in the right direction.  Of course there's no centrifugal disconnect switch, and designing for a starting relay could be tricky, so you're best off by considering it a permanent-split-capacitor motor and using a motor-run capacitor.  Within limits, the larger the better; probably the simplest way is to try something and see what happens.


----------



## master53yoda (Nov 22, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> I just picked up an antique Champion camelback drill press.  It came with a General Electric motor.  The motor is 1.5 hp 220v 2 phase. Is there a way to get this to run on single phase?  The guy I got it from claimed to have had it running years ago, but didn't remember how it was wired.  There are only 3 wires in the junction box on the motor.



True 2 phase power used 4 conductors, some of the motors used 3 conductors like a 3 phase motor but they can be 
ID by the fact that one of the 3 wires will be larger then the other 2 because it carries about 1.5 times the current that  the other two wires carry.    the reason for the difference is that it carries the vector sum of the 2 90 degree angle motor windings.  True 2 phase power was used for a very short time in the early 1900s.    I have never seen a true 2 phase motor. 

Some of the the early three phase power supplies were connected to 2 of the three phases and the motor generated the third phase internally, but the phase angle between the two connected transformers was 120 degrees.  the power delivered to the building was 240 delta with a main phase for 120 volt power available.  Two of the legs to ground or neutral was 120 but the third leg was about 180 depending on load balance.  This is also referred to as wild or bastard leg three phase.      when looking at the transformers on the pole one was considerably larger then the other.   Those "2 phase " motors  used on this power system were really 3 phase motors .     

The idea that the common 120/240 volt systems are 2 phase is a misnomer because the system is simply a single phase 240 Volt transformer with a grounded center tap of the transformer as neutral for 110 Volt.         

208 Volt three phase is a Y configuration with a grounded center tap of the wye as neutral.  Any leg to neutral or ground as 110.

I hope this helps a little

Art B


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 22, 2014)

*Re: Picture, 2 Phase Motor*

This is a picture of the motor.  Couldn't get a clear picture of the tag.  It reads Induction motor, General Electric, Schnectedy NY.  I'll try again tomorrow for a clear picture of the tag.

View attachment 88253


----------



## John Hasler (Nov 22, 2014)

*Re: Picture, 2 Phase Motor*



invisabledog said:


> This is a picture of the motor.  Couldn't get a clear picture of the tag.  It reads Induction motor, General Electric, Schnectedy NY.  I'll try again tomorrow for a clear picture of the tag.



I see the word "PHASE" on there but I can't make out the number.


----------



## Wreck™Wreck (Nov 22, 2014)

master53yoda said:


> True 2 phase power used 4 conductors, some of the motors used 3 conductors like a 3 phase motor but they can be
> ID by the fact that one of the 3 wires will be larger then the other 2 because it carries about 1.5 times the current that  the other two wires carry.    the reason for the difference is that it carries the vector sum of the 2 90 degree angle motor windings.  True 2 phase power was used for a very short time in the early 1900s.    I have never seen a true 2 phase motor.
> 
> Some of the the early three phase power supplies were connected to 2 of the three phases and the motor generated the third phase internally, but the phase angle between the two connected transformers was 120 degrees.  the power delivered to the building was 240 delta with a main phase for 120 volt power available.  Two of the legs to ground or neutral was 120 but the third leg was about 180 depending on load balance.  This is also referred to as wild or bastard leg three phase.      when looking at the transformers on the pole one was considerably larger then the other.   Those "2 phase " motors  used on this power system were really 3 phase motors .
> ...



This is correct in my experience, certain parts of the old manufacturing areas of Philadelphia were predominantly 2 phase and remained that way into the mid 2000"s when I stopped doing that kind of work.
4 wires for motors, I recall having to switch them in pairs to change direction.


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 24, 2014)

I got a nice clear picture of the tag, but can't post it.  I've cropped it down as small as I can and it still says it excedes the limit to post.


----------



## Smithdoor (Nov 24, 2014)

Here is a transformer set up for make 3 ph to 2 ph
If you can make this type of motor to single phase just like your AC on your home

Dave



invisabledog said:


> I got a nice clear picture of the tag, but can't post it.  I've cropped it down as small as I can and it still says it excedes the limit to post.


----------



## master53yoda (Nov 24, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> I got a nice clear picture of the tag, but can't post it.  I've cropped it down as small as I can and it still says it excedes the limit to post.



Save it as a jpeg and it should post

Art B


----------



## master53yoda (Nov 24, 2014)

Smithdoor said:


> Here is a transformer set up for make 3 ph to 2 ph
> If you can make this type of motor to single phase just like your AC on your home
> 
> Dave



I went through my transformer book and I could not find a single phase Scott type connection,  it just ends up as a single phase buck and boost.

You could do it with the proper capacitor inductor connection but the size on the capactiors would need to vary based on load.   This would be similiar to a static three phase convertor that someone else had mentioned.

I think your better off to replace the motor or maybe go with a high end treadmill motor.   I run a treadmill motor on my 12 x 36 lathe and have no problems.

Art B

PS That motor may have some value to a college as a lab motor.


----------



## Smithdoor (Nov 24, 2014)

If was a big motor I would setting to run with cap start and run
If had a lot money I would just buy new motor works the 

I do like the  treadmill motor I do not know how can make that one work
Dave



master53yoda said:


> I went through my transformer book and I could not find a single phase Scott type connection,  it just ends up as a single phase buck and boost.
> 
> You could do it with the proper capacitor inductor connection but the size on the capactiors would need to vary based on load.   This would be similiar to a static three phase convertor that someone else had mentioned.
> 
> ...


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 24, 2014)

master53yoda said:


> Save it as a jpeg and it should post
> 
> Art B



It's already a jpeg


----------



## CluelessNewB (Nov 24, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> It's already a jpeg



There are several free programs that allow you to reduce the size of image files.  Two that I have used are IrfanView and Easy Thumbnails.   

I use Easy Thumbnails a fair bit when sharing pictures from my "good" camera.  It makes bloated 24MP pictures, nice but bloated!    

http://www.fookes.com/easy-thumbnails

IrfanView is also available for free download.  Some of the sites where you can download it from also try to include unwanted software so make sure you virus scan and read carefully everything before you click ok.


----------



## JimDawson (Nov 24, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> I got a nice clear picture of the tag, but can't post it.  I've cropped it down as small as I can and it still says it excedes the limit to post.



As a new(er) member you are limited as to how much you can upload.  I don't have access to change your status to allow your up load.  But you can email a picture to me an I can post it for you.  My email is in my signature below.


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 25, 2014)

JimDawson said:


> As a new(er) member you are limited as to how much you can upload.  I don't have access to change your status to allow your up load.  But you can email a picture to me an I can post it for you.  My email is in my signature below.



Thanks Jim, email on the way.


----------



## BeltFedPlus (Nov 25, 2014)

FWIW, Many years ago, I worked for a motor manufacturer (Reuland) in California and in the process of setting up their new test facility, I installed hookups for 2 phase 4 wire. At that time Reuland would ship 2 phase motors if they were requested and it was my understanding that there were only a couple of areas on the east coast that still had 2 phase available. Presumably the 3 wires you're speaking of would a common and the other 2 would be the phase wires which would be 180 degrees out of phase. (a 3 phase motor has the phase wires 120 degrees out of phase) it might be possible to connect a  capacitor on one of the phase wires and power it off 110 volts depending on the current draw. Good luck. It's certainly possible.


----------



## JimDawson (Nov 25, 2014)

OK, here is the long awaited data plate picture.  I'm posting this for invisabledog


----------



## John Hasler (Nov 25, 2014)

JimDawson said:


> OK, here is the long awaited data plate picture.  I'm posting this for invisabledog



Ok, i'ts really 2 phase, then.  I was wrong about GE never having made any.


----------



## invisabledog (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks Jim, for posting the picture for me.  The guy I got it from has the switch box they used to run it.  I'm going to get that and see if it sheds any light on thing.  If not, then the motor will be a neat old conversation piece.  I jus picked up a milling machine that is 3 phase, that will need a converter.  I'll just remotor the drill press and if I happen across a 3 phase for it i'll be set.


----------



## JimDawson (Nov 25, 2014)

John Hasler said:


> Ok, i'ts really 2 phase, then.  I was wrong about GE never having made any.



Probably made after JP Morgan fired Edison, and Edison General Electric became General Electric.  I don't think Edison would have allowed a AC motor to be made in his plant.


----------



## Alan Douglas (Nov 25, 2014)

Edison personally had little to do with the manufacturing companies. 

Thomson-Houston effectively swallowed Edison General Electric in 1892, and Edison's name was dropped from the combined company.  This was arranged by the Boston bankers that ran Thomson-Houston in Lynn, as their company was in better financial shape than Morgan's. Edison GE had taken notes from the operating companies instead of cash in payment for equipment, so they had no money.

I don't imagine that Elihu Thomson was any more pleased than Edison was, but he remained with the company.


----------



## CoopVA (Nov 26, 2014)

Don't get me started on Edison...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## invisabledog (Dec 2, 2014)

I've made arrangements to go pick up the original switch/control box they used to run the motor.  Going to get it this comming Saturday.  Hopefully this will answer some questions or possibly create new ones. :thinking:


----------



## John Hasler (Dec 2, 2014)

invisabledog said:


> I've made arrangements to go pick up the original switch/control box they used to run the motor.  Going to get it this comming Saturday.  Hopefully this will answer some questions or possibly create new ones. :thinking:



Please get us some pictures.


----------



## invisabledog (Dec 6, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/power switch picture*

Picked up the switch today.  According to the label inside the cover, it's a magnetic starter.  The yellow, red and black wires on the left run to another box with an on/off switch.  Input connections which are cut are labled L1, L2 and L3.  The guy claims it was running in his shop, but he didn't wire it.

View attachment 89143


----------



## master53yoda (Dec 6, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/power switch picture*



invisabledog said:


> Picked up the switch today.  According to the label inside the cover, it's a magnetic starter.  The yellow, red and black wires on the left run to another box with an on/off switch.  Input connections which are cut are labled L1, L2 and L3.  The guy claims it was running in his shop, but he didn't wire it.



That looks to be a standard 3 phase connection.    If it is truly a 2 phase system one of the heaters will be different the the other two.     You may end up needing to get us a picture of the windings on the motor in order to resolve what you really have.

Art B


----------



## John Hasler (Dec 6, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/power switch picture*



master53yoda said:


> That looks to be a standard 3 phase connection.



Yes.



> If it is truly a 2 phase system one of the heaters will be different the the other two.



Only if it was wired correctly.



> You may end up needing to get us a picture of the windings on the motor in order to resolve what you really have.



And a photo of what's in the other box.  Did the shop where it was running have three phase?


----------



## invisabledog (Dec 6, 2014)

The shop it came from did have 3 phase.  The other box just has 2 push buttons.  One for off and the other for on.  I'm beginning to think something may have been done inside the motor.  The end housings appear to have been rotated 90 deg.  With the motor sitting on the base the tag is on the top so you can read it.  The oil cups are facing to the side.  No way those cups will hold oil that way.  Someone has definately been inside.  I'm going to try to get it apart, tomorrow, and see what I have. Nothing like a good mystery.


----------



## invisabledog (Dec 7, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/more pics*

Windings and armature.  I expected to see 4 wires with two of them joined together before exiting the housing.  I can't see anywhere that any modifications have been made.

View attachment 89216
View attachment 89217


----------



## master53yoda (Dec 8, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/more pics*



invisabledog said:


> Windings and armature.  I expected to see 4 wires with two of them joined together before exiting the housing.  I can't see anywhere that any modifications have been made.



can you get another picture of the windings taken far enough away so that we can see how the windings overlap each other

Art B


----------



## invisabledog (Dec 8, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/more pics*



master53yoda said:


> can you get another picture of the windings taken far enough away so that we can see how the windings overlap each other
> 
> Art B




Will get more pics when I get to the shop, today.


----------



## invisabledog (Dec 8, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/winding pics*

More winding pics


----------



## master53yoda (Dec 9, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/winding pics*



invisabledog said:


> More winding pics



It looks to me that it is a 6 pole 2 phase motor,    that would go along with the rpm stated on the tag as well.   How they got it to run with that mag starter wiring it not sure????

Art B


----------



## invisabledog (Dec 9, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/winding pics*



master53yoda said:


> It looks to me that it is a 6 pole 2 phase motor,    that would go along with the rpm stated on the tag as well.   How they got it to run with that mag starter wiring it not sure????
> 
> Art B



Thanks Art.  I sure wish I could talk to the guy that wired it.  At any rate, I'm done messing with it.  I don't want to take a chance hooking it up the way they did.  I'm going to repower the drill press and retire this old work horse.  It will make a great door stop and conversation piece.


----------



## John Hasler (Dec 9, 2014)

*Re: 2 Phase Motor/winding pics*



master53yoda said:


> It looks to me that it is a 6 pole 2 phase motor,    that would go along with the rpm stated on the tag as well.   How they got it to run with that mag starter wiring it not sure????
> 
> Art B



I would not be surprised if a two phase motor would just run hooked to three phase, though with reduced power, increased heat, and some vibration.


----------

