# Lead Me Down The Right Path (New Motor)



## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

Ok.. so i have been looking at motors and such for a while since i had gotten this lathe home. The original motor is a 440v 3ph motor. On another forum, i was told that a Lesson 192241 was a direct replacement. Come to later find out that that motor has been discontinued, there are still some sitting in warehouses, best price i found was 384.xx.. 
So yesterday, i decide to take the original motor to the local armature shop. They said that they could open it up and see if it can be rewired to 220v 3ph, but there lead time is pretty long right now. So, the fella there (the only one working in the shop at the time) has to help another customer. While i am waiting, what do i spy on the shelf.. none other than a brand new Lesson 192241 motor, 220v 3ph. And the price was right too.. let me have it for 300.xx out the door. 

So now, i have it mounted right now for clearance check and what not. It is a lil longer than the original Elin motor, but i feel that i will be ok.. I am going to purchase a WJ200 VFD, as to which one, the 007 or the 015. 

Here is a look at the motor installed 




As you can see here, might have an issue with getting the wires to it, but i don't think that it will be that "big" of a deal




And from the front




More in a bit


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

Ok.. as for the wiring.. can i presume that the four wires that came from the wall to the box (the ones i am holding) be used to connect the VFD to the motor.


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## mksj (Feb 8, 2022)

You may be able to rotate the electrical box 180 degrees, wires usually come out down. Otherwise punch a hole in the side and you can get press in covers for the existing holes. Not sure where you are going to mount the VFD, I probably would power the VFD from the existing power switch and run a short length of cable from the VFD motor connections to the new motor, would be 14/3 (3 wires + ground)


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

mksj said:


> You may be able to rotate the electrical box 180 degrees, wires usually come out down. Otherwise punch a hole in the side and you can get press in covers for the existing holes. Not sure where you are going to mount the VFD, I probably would power the VFD from the existing power switch and run a short length of cable from the VFD motor connections to the new motor, would be 14/3 (3 wires + ground)


i was going to mount the VFD on the side of the box on your right side behind where the door is swung open.. 




The "a1" switch is the power switch to the machine, take the leads from it and wire it in, in front of the VFD


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

i can also mount it on top of the box too


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

mksj said:


> You may be able to rotate the electrical box 180 degrees, wires usually come out down. Otherwise punch a hole in the side and you can get press in covers for the existing holes. Not sure where you are going to mount the VFD, I probably would power the VFD from the existing power switch and run a short length of cable from the VFD motor connections to the new motor, would be 14/3 (3 wires + ground)


and yes.. i think that going through the panel on the motor that the bolts are.. would the best "alternative"


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

mksj said:


> You may be able to rotate the electrical box 180 degrees, wires usually come out down. Otherwise punch a hole in the side and you can get press in covers for the existing holes. Not sure where you are going to mount the VFD, I probably would power the VFD from the existing power switch and run a short length of cable from the VFD motor connections to the new motor, would be 14/3 (3 wires + ground)


those wires that i pointed out, they are solid wires.. is it correct that they should be stranded wire?


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## Janderso (Feb 8, 2022)

I wouldn’t think mounting the VFD on the motor would be a good idea for two reasons.
Heat, number one.
You will want easy access to the VFD controls also.
My two cents.
Good price for that motor!


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## mksj (Feb 8, 2022)

You should use flexible stranded wire, I would not recommend solid wire in a vibration environment. You also do not want loose cables between the motor and the enclosure, a single electrical cable is easier then flexible conduit with separate wires.  The motor electrical boxes are typically removable, they have screws go into the motor body. Just be aware that the NEMA 1 VFD's are open for cooling so you do not want chips falling in from the top. If you mount it on the side, I would put a chip shield 2-3" above the VFD.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

Janderso said:


> I wouldn’t think mounting the VFD on the motor would be a good idea for two reasons.
> Heat, number one.
> You will want easy access to the VFD controls also.
> My two cents.
> Good price for that motor!


i wasn't thinking of mounting the VFD on the "motor.. but to the right of the box that is above it or on the top of that box that holds all the electrical stuff on it right now.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

mksj said:


> You should use flexible stranded wire, I would not recommend solid wire in a vibration environment. You also do not want loose cables between the motor and the enclosure, a single electrical cable is easier then flexible conduit with separate wires.  The motor electrical boxes are typically removable, they have screws go into the motor body. Just be aware that the NEMA 1 VFD's are open for cooling so you do not want chips falling in from the top. If you mount it on the side, I would put a chip shield 2-3" above the VFD.


yes.. i am planning on some kind of shield for it


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

mksj said:


> You should use flexible stranded wire, I would not recommend solid wire in a vibration environment. You also do not want loose cables between the motor and the enclosure, a single electrical cable is easier then flexible conduit with separate wires.  The motor electrical boxes are typically removable, they have screws go into the motor body. Just be aware that the NEMA 1 VFD's are open for cooling so you do not want chips falling in from the top. If you mount it on the side, I would put a chip shield 2-3" above the VFD.


thanks for that..


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

i am getting the feeling that i will have to pull all of this out.. the power switch has a feature that if it isn't getting enough power.. it will shut the machine off.. would this make a difference with going from 440v to 220v 3ph?


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## Dabbler (Feb 8, 2022)

Check your contactor coil voltages and make sure that you don't have a 'heater' and electrical overload that is set for 440V.  If so you have some replacin' to do.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Check your contactor coil voltages and make sure that you don't have a 'heater' and electrical overload that is set for 440V.  If so you have some replacin' to do.


well the motor was a single voltage 440v, so with what you are saying there.. the chances of that are high.. yes?


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Check your contactor coil voltages and *make sure that you don't have a 'heater' and electrical overload that is set for 440V.*  If so you have some replacin' to do.


oh and i am going to ask you the stupid question.. how do you do that..


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## Dabbler (Feb 8, 2022)

Likely all the controls are 120V with a small transformer in the electrical box.  That or 24V.  both are common.  You use a digital volt meter to measure the coil voltage on one of the contactors:  90% they will all be the same. 



IamNotImportant said:


> how do you do that..



There are so many designs of overload heaters - you need a protection in your electrical box, and you can use a conventional DIN mounted breaker to do the same thing.  If you have a circuit diagram, it will show as a pass-through sircuit thta seems to have no function.  that is the overload.

These 'heater' circuits were popular up to the 1950s, when breakers became cheaper and more reliable.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Likely all the controls are 120V with a small transformer in the electrical box.  That or 24V.  both are common.  You use a digital volt meter to measure the coil voltage on one of the contactors:  90% they will all be the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the inside of the box above the motor.


This is the schematic on the door.. i will admit.. i have no clue what i am looking at there


This Square D box above the power switch, can i presume that this is the "overload" protector?


This is the switch that tells the motor i presume which direction and speed it goes.




and just to the right of that is this





The "Red" Switch is the power
The "Black"Switch is the speed and direction switch

And as you can see, there are three of these in there





As for these two white things.. i don't know what they are


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

Ok i know what these two things are now..


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 8, 2022)

And from what i can see, if one of those goes.. i can't get a replacement.. so it is looking like we need to find a alternative to those bottle fuses..


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## Dabbler (Feb 8, 2022)

I'd have to be there and trace the circuits in person to be of more help.


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## mksj (Feb 8, 2022)

You would not be using any of the existing  wiring/control cabinet control components. They would all be eliminated with the use of a VFD, you cannot run the VFD motor output through the previous contactors/heaters/switch gear for motor speed. You would use the main power switch for power to the VFD, you would not use the switch for selecting motor speeds, it could either be replaced with a FOR/STOP/REV selector or a speed pot.  There are different ways to have the VFD operate the motor, one is 2 wire control which needs a sustained low input for the direction, the other is 3 wire control which uses momentary buttons for run/stop and a sustained switch for for/rev.  I can provide you with a suggested wiring diagram depending on the type of controls you want and where you want the controls. The motor is directly connected to the VFD motor terminals, the VFD low voltage inputs are used to control what the VFD is to do, and the VFD must be programmed to operate correctly.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

mksj said:


> You would not be using any of the existing  wiring/control cabinet control components. They would all be eliminated with the use of a VFD, you cannot run the VFD motor output through the previous contactors/heaters/switch gear for motor speed. You would use the main power switch for power to the VFD, you would not use the switch for selecting motor speeds, it could either be replaced with a FOR/STOP/REV selector or a speed pot.  There are different ways to have the VFD operate the motor, one is 2 wire control which needs a sustained low input for the direction, the other is 3 wire control which uses momentary buttons for run/stop and a sustained switch for for/rev.  I can provide you with a suggested wiring diagram depending on the type of controls you want and where you want the controls. The motor is directly connected to the VFD motor terminals, the VFD low voltage inputs are used to control what the VFD is to do, and the VFD must be programmed to operate correctly.


that's what i wanted to hear.. so i will just remove that box and get a mount made for the VFD to be mounted in its place.. thanks


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## Dabbler (Feb 9, 2022)

@IamNotImportant Form the type of questions, you would benefit from watching this video.  He explains why it is not just your VFD, and what components you need to add to make your system work properly:






Just a note here:  you don't have to make your system as pretty as his, but he explains every trade-off he makes in doing this project.


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## sdelivery (Feb 9, 2022)

The European glass fuses in the upper left hand corner will need to be sized for the reduced voltage i.e. double the current.
The three contractors with the orange faces have thermal overloads that are adjustable right on the front panel. 
I doubt that they will have enough adjustment to meet the new current requirements and will likely trip.
This is not that hard to do (voltage change high volts to low volts but it must be well thought through....check each motor for the ability to rewire for the new voltage, there appears to be three motors.....


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## sdelivery (Feb 9, 2022)

At the lower left hand corner appears to be a transformer....need a better picture. 
The glass fuses are not that hard to find.
I have wired VFD's into existing panels and used the existing circuits BUT you must never ever open or close the circuit after the VFD with the VFD running...it can be in a stop mode but It cannot be in a run mode.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @IamNotImportant Form the type of questions, you would benefit from watching this video.  He explains why it is not just your VFD, and what components you need to add to make your system work properly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks.. i will prob watch it more than once..


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

sdelivery said:


> At the lower left hand corner appears to be a transformer....need a better picture.
> The glass fuses are not that hard to find.
> I have wired VFD's into existing panels and used the existing circuits BUT you must never ever open or close the circuit after the VFD with the VFD running...it can be in a stop mode but It cannot be in a run mode.


i took the box off the machine.. thinking that i will use the mounting holes to put frame on the machine to hold the VFD.. what do you think? 




Back of the lathe 






Here is what the front panel looks like now.. 



Thinking of getting someone to make me one of these for the VFD..


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## Dabbler (Feb 9, 2022)

@IamNotImportant since this is your first VFD, there's some stuff you need to know.

-If you can afford a VFD with an external braking resistor, that will help.  
-It is much, much easier to put a VFD on a mill than on a lathe.  

-No VFD is 'plug and play'  You will be spending time configuring it.  Be patient.  the manual is very long, but many items you don't have to configure.  The problem is that the manual won't tell you what the essentials are and which are not.  If you have a digital version of your manual, some people here can help you with that.

-You need to know the current rating for your motor - it will be on the face plate.  

-You have to set your VFD for Sensorless Vector Mode.  

-You have to be sure you have the correct settings for the control buttons (we can cover that later) 

-You need to set your acceleration and deceleration times.  On my mills I use 5 seconds.  Depending on you lathe and your VFD, this time will probably be more like 10 seconds+  I would start at 30 seconds and work my way down..  If your deceleration time is too short you can overload your VFD.  It should be protected for this, but no need to trust that.  

There's more but it is better if you view the videos first.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

so then it will look like this in front


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## Dabbler (Feb 9, 2022)

IamNotImportant said:


> i took the box off the machine..


You are going tio need that box for the VFD and support stuff needed to run your lathe.


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## Dabbler (Feb 9, 2022)

I really love your VFD control panel!


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @IamNotImportant since this is your first VFD, there's some stuff you need to know.
> 
> -If you can afford a VFD with an external braking resistor, that will help.
> -It is much, much easier to put a VFD on a mill than on a lathe.
> ...


The VFD i was planning on getting is the Hitachi WJ200-015SF

The motor is a 230V 3ph 1750 rpm


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> You are going tio need that box for the VFD and support stuff needed to run your lathe.


well i can put it back on.. i will just gut it of the stuff that is in it


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## Dabbler (Feb 9, 2022)

what is the HP rating?  Does the Hitachi support external braking resistor?  Thye are usually about 100 ohms.  You can buy theirs or use a old fashioned stove heat coil of the same resistance.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> what is the HP rating?  Does the Hitachi support external braking resistor?  Thye are usually about 100 ohms.  You can buy theirs or use a old fashioned stove heat coil of the same resistance.


the motor rating is 1hp, the VFD is 2hp.. so giving it a lil headroom  

As for external breaking.. i would hope so, will have to check the manual, but this VFD seems to be a very popular one on this site.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> what is the HP rating?  Does the Hitachi support external braking resistor?  Thye are usually about 100 ohms.  You can buy theirs or use a old fashioned stove heat coil of the same resistance.











						Adding a Braking Resistor to a WJ200 VFD
					

A couple of weeks ago I started a thread about selecting a braking resistor for a CNC mill with a Hitachi WJ200 VFD.  Thinking my post would get more exposure here, and therefore help more members, I've created this new post.    Thanks to the knowledgeable folks on this forum I received the...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Dabbler (Feb 9, 2022)

my preference is the TECO 510 series.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> my preference is the TECO 510 series.


If you were "recommend" one of those.. which one would it be for this project?


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @IamNotImportant Form the type of questions, you would benefit from watching this video.  He explains why it is not just your VFD, and what components you need to add to make your system work properly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh and in this vid, that is the same exact motor as to the one i got..


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## Dabbler (Feb 9, 2022)

I've used the Teco L510 series VFDs for several projects, from 1HP to 3HP.  These do not need headroom;  I use a 2HP model on 2HP mills, etc.  The downside is that the 1HP and 2HP models do not have external braking resistors.  That is why I was interested if the Hitachi has this feature.


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## Hozzie (Feb 9, 2022)

Hitachi's do have connections for external breaking resistors.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I've used the Teco L510 series VFDs for several projects, from 1HP to 3HP.  These do not need headroom;  I use a 2HP model on 2HP mills, etc.  The downside is that the 1HP and 2HP models do not have external braking resistors.  That is why I was interested if the Hitachi has this feature.


I don't think that i need the 2hp version.. just know that i can get my hands on one. 


Hozzie said:


> Hitachi's do have connections for external breaking resistors.


Thank you sir for that!


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## mksj (Feb 9, 2022)

The L510 does not support an external braking resistor, typically they are needed with lathes for fast stopping. The E510 does support a braking resistor. There is no need to oversize a VFD if it is rated for single phase input and the output amps are sufficient for the motor name plate amps when set for constant torque and normal/heavy duty settings. Newer VFD's can be a bit misleading as to their "Hp" ratings, so you do need to check the VFD specs. for the operating conditions of your motor. A three phase input VFD run off of single phase are usually derated by 50% these days.


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

mksj said:


> The L510 does not support an external braking resistor, typically they are needed with lathes for fast stopping. The E510 does support a braking resistor. There is no need to oversize a VFD if it is rated for single phase input and the output amps are sufficient for the motor name plate amps when set for constant torque and normal/heavy duty settings. Newer VFD's can be a bit misleading as to their "Hp" ratings, so you do need to check the VFD specs. for the operating conditions of your motor. A three phase input VFD run off of single phase are usually derated by 50% these days.


i was looking at the 220v 1ph input 3 phase output VFD. I will go with the 1hp then, since it is less expensive.. i like that option


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 9, 2022)

@mksj 

Would this be ok to wire the VFD to the motor? 









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## mksj (Feb 9, 2022)

You do not need metal clad just use something like SOOW or even SJOOW 14/4, it is just a short distance. 









						Southwire By-the-Foot 14/4 300-Volt CU Black Flexible Portable Power SJOOW Cord 55812399 - The Home Depot
					

The Southwire Black 14/4 SJOOW Cord has a flexible jacket and EPDM rubber insulation that are heat, moisture and oil resistant. The wire is ideal for portable tools, portable appliances, equipment, small



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## IamNotImportant (Feb 14, 2022)

Ok.. the VFD is ordered.. should i order a external resistor for breaking? If so, do you have a suggestion as to which one.. the VFD is a Hitachi WJ200-007SF


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## mksj (Feb 14, 2022)

Braking resistor would be anything in the 50-100 Ohm range and probably 100-300W dissipation rating. Some examples below, comes down to size and where you want to mount it. Please note that that the buss voltage is in the 390VDC range so be very careful if you use one with exposed terminals.
ARCOL / Ohmite KABR200 100R J 


			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ARCOL-Ohmite/KABR200-100R-J?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv0NwlthflBixusuWMfRAEwdwj%252B1v0mr3Q%3D
		

ARCOL / Ohmite HS100 56R F


			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ARCOL-Ohmite/HS100-56R-F?qs=bvCpHSZmQjlRvjco2HXiqw%3D%3D
		




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			https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/drives_-a-_soft_starters/ac_variable_frequency_drives_(vfd)/braking_units_-a-_resistors/gs-22p0-br


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 14, 2022)

mksj said:


> Braking resistor would be anything in the 50-100 Ohm range and probably 100-300W dissipation rating. Some examples below, comes down to size and where you want to mount it. Please note that that the buss voltage is in the 390VDC range so be very careful if you use one with exposed terminals.
> ARCOL / Ohmite KABR200 100R J
> 
> 
> ...


Well exposed terminals is something that would not prefer..so that will narrow down the choices.. thanks Mr M for the leads


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 18, 2022)

Picked up a double throw switch, which will be tapped in on the back side of the breaker to the dryer, so that way, when i want to use the lathe, the power to the dryer will cut off.. and when the dryer is in use, the lathe can't be used.


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