# Pulled the Trigger on a PM 45 CNC...



## Ray C

Well... I pulled the trigger today on a PM 45 CNC mill.  Wheew, that was a long hard decision to jump into CNC.  It's not advertised but, it's available with 4th axis and since I'll only go around once in life, I decided to give myself the ability to screw things up in every dimension.

This will be interesting...

Anyhow, I've had a couple jobs now where someone wanted quantities of 5 on a milled item -and I can't keep saying no.  I have another situation lined up where someone needs quantities of 50 and 100.  -Not a a real complicated part but, I have no desire to manually make more than 2 or 3 of anything...


Ray


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## dave2176

Congratulations Ray. I look forward to hearing about your experiences with it.

Dave


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## jpfabricator

I am also intrested in your progress! Please keep us posted.


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## Rbeckett

Ray C said:


> Anyhow, I've had a couple jobs now where someone wanted quantities of 5 on a milled item -and I can't keep saying no.  I have another situation lined up where someone needs quantities of 50 and 100.  -Not a a real complicated part but, I have no desire to manually make more than 2 or 3 of anything...
> Ray


Yeah CNC will whip off 50 or 100 in no time at all.  Depending on the complexity of the part you can knock a bunch out in a day and 100 in just a few.  Good luck and you know we gotta see the pics of your first production run in progress.  Nothing like sitting back and watching a machine make money.  I get a grin just thinking about it.

Bob


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## jumps4

good news ray
if I can help you with anything just ask 
steve


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## Ray C

Thanks Guys...  I don't even know when it will arrrive.  I forgot to ask.  Also, Matt just got several orders for them and I said he could bump me if needed.  If all goes well though, I do believe the next shipment is coming in about a month.  Soon, I'll have to start preparing the shop and getting the gantry out of storage.


Ray


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## Ray C

I've finally cleared space for it and Matt will be working on it as soon as all the other orders are processed.  I was in no hurry and actually needed time to prepare and get the delivery aligned with some time-off that I have coming up.


Ray



RCW said:


> Have you received your machine?
> 
> Do you like it?
> 
> Where are the pictures?
> 
> --Bob


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## Ray C

FYI:  The PM 45 CNC machine will arrive tomorrow.  The trucking company could have delivered it this morning but, I had an appointment with an accountant.  Stay tuned...  I will take pictures from cradle to grave.  I will put pictures of the physical moving, platform build and basic setup in this thread.


Ray


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## jpfabricator

Waiting patiently

Sent from my H866C using Tapatalk 2


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## Ray C

We can probably pull the plug on this today...  Got well over 12" of snow last night and right now, it's coming down pure ice.   Don't hold your breath for delivery today.


Ray


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## Kennyd

Good luck with the snow Ray, here's what it looks like in Westminster now:


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## Ray C

Kennyd said:


> Good luck with the snow Ray, here's what it looks like in Westminster now:
> 
> View attachment 69856



I thought the bulk of it came South...  Anyhow, it's a crappy situation out there in terms of driving.  I've got a slow grade in front of my house and most folks are struggling to drive it.

Ray


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## jumps4

this is like postponing Christmas:nono:
waiting patiently
steve


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## Ray C

jumps4 said:


> this is like postponing Christmas:nono:
> waiting patiently
> steve



I hate to tell you this but, we're getting more snow.  Another 6" just hit the area and it's still going.  This place is crippled and I almost got stuck with the truck picking up my wife from work...  -Highly doubtful it will arrive tomorrow either...

Ray


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## Ray C

Ray C said:


> I hate to tell you this but, we're getting more snow.  Another 6" just hit the area and it's still going.  This place is crippled and I almost got stuck with the truck picking up my wife from work...  -Highly doubtful it will arrive tomorrow either...
> 
> Ray



Delivery outlook:  When hell freezes over -which it did last night.  We got another 12" of heavy wet snow and now, it's all frozen solid.  I don't have a plow and hand shovels are useless.


Ray


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## johnnyc14

That sucks Ray. Mother Nature is not cooperating! Nothing anyone can do but surrender to her power.:whiteflag:

Cheers,

John


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## Ray C

johnnyc14 said:


> That sucks Ray. Mother Nature is not cooperating! Nothing anyone can do but surrender to her power.:whiteflag:
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John



No worries...  In my younger years, I'd be climbing out of my skin.  -Not so much now...  I'm semi-self-employed now and busier than I've ever been (and loving it).  As for mother nature...  She also let me get up at 6 AM to work hard and clear some snow and let the dogs run but best of all, she let me come back inside the house and make pancakes, scrambled eggs and a sausage link for breakfast.  -Let it snow, Mother Nature, let it snow...


Ray


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## Stonebriar

Ray,
My machines left Matt's yesterday afternoon and according to FedEx in Indiana now.  I guess they decided to go west instead of south on the way to Texas.

Rick


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## Ray C

This all happened since yesterday...  Big bucket plow came though and un-did a lot of the shoveling from early this morning.  -All for the better good I suppose.  As soon as I shoveled the sidewalk, the cold air froze it -nice and slippery now.  

Anyhow, things are cleared well enough so, if the mill does come, the driveway is clear.  Oh baby, my back and hamstrings are screaming at me!





Look what they did to the front of my house...  I shoveled the sidewalk and park walkway this morning...




Here's what it used to look like.




Ray


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## Ray C

Well...  Will today be my lucky day?  The tracking says it's supposed to come today...  Keep your fingers crossed...


Ray


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## Ray C

Ray C said:


> Well...  Will today be my lucky day?  The tracking says it's supposed to come today...  Keep your fingers crossed...
> 
> 
> Ray



Luck is running-out...  Just called to confirm.  President's day today and deliveries are canceled.  Also, the BOL says liftgate service but, when I called, it was scheduled for dock delivery...

Stay tuned for the continuing saga...  -And this is all part-and-parcel of having things delivered.  Upset?  Heck no.  Been thru this too many times and have faced this fact of life many times before...

About 50% of all deliveries of this nature have glitches like this.

Ray


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## Stonebriar

Don't you just love it.  The joys of deliveries.

My stuff is scheduled for Wednesday.  To unload I have to rent a Skylift forklift for the day, to be delivered Tuesday night.  All of this coordination causes undue anxiety.


Rick


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## bloomingtonmike

More snow through IL today on the way to you. Better have the plow on standby.


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## Ray C

Hey Guys... Take a look here...







Ray


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## drs23

Ray C said:


> Hey Guys... Take a look here...Ray



Well, chop chop then.

We'll need more progress pics, please...)


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## Stonebriar

It's Christmas!!


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## darkzero

Awesome! :drinkingbeer:


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## dave2176

I'm giddy with excitement.)


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## Ray C

Ok...  I got around to uncrating the base.  I need to make a sub-base with provisions for levelers and/or rollers.  I'll start that tomorrow but, I've got yet another side job to knock out.  -Ladder racks for a large panel truck.  -Got a referral from the fellow who needs the truck storage boxes...

So, here a picture of the base.  It's a two-piece unit.  The top part comes off.  The whole thing isn't too heavy; I'm guessing about 150-200lbs.  I moved it myself so it's not too bad.  It's quite sturdy though so no worries there.  

Here's a photo and a drawing of the base hole pattern.  The holes are symmetric and it appears to be designed in US dimensions.  With the top piece, the height from floor to top is 24.5".  The dimension of the top are 23 Wide x  26.75 Deep.






Ray


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## drs23

Ray C said:


> Ok...  I got around to uncrating the base.  I need to make a sub-base with provisions for levelers and/or rollers.  I'll start that tomorrow but, I've got yet another side job to knock out.  -Ladder racks for a large panel truck.  -Got a referral from the fellow who needs the truck storage boxes...
> 
> So, here a picture of the base.  It's a two-piece unit.  The top part comes off.  The whole thing isn't too heavy; I'm guessing about 150-200lbs.  I moved it myself so it's not too bad.  It's quite sturdy though so no worries there.
> 
> Here's a photo and a drawing of the base hole pattern.  The holes are symmetric and it appears to be designed in US dimensions.  With the top piece, the height from floor to top is 24.5".  The dimension of the top are 23 Wide x  26.75 Deep.
> 
> 
> View attachment 70423
> View attachment 70424
> 
> 
> Ray



All righty then! Progress. 

That blue sure is pretty. ;^)


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## jbolt

Ray, The holes on the base (same as yours) of my PM-932 were not symmetrical. I was warned of this by another user. Just saying so someone else doesn't plan something based on your drawing.

Congrats on the new machine. Look forward to seeing it it action.

J~


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## Ray C

jbolt said:


> Ray, The holes on the base (same as yours) of my PM-932 were not symmetrical. I was warned of this by another user. Just saying so someone else doesn't plan something based on your drawing.
> 
> Congrats on the new machine. Look forward to seeing it it action.
> 
> J~



Wow, I'm actually somewhat surprised because mine were so well aligned and uniform, I figured they must have that casting process pretty well figured-out.  I would estimate that mine were roughly in a +/- 1/16" inch range -which is about as good as you can expect for rough cast iron that's been epoxy coated.

Anyhow, I do thank you for the heads-up.

I'm curious, how out-of-whack were yours?  BTW:  I don't doubt you at all...  I want to get feedback on this so maybe Matt can get the factory to address this.

Ray


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## johnnyc14

Ray, the bolt holes on the base of my PM32 were not symetrical. The holes on one side are 1/4" closer to the edge than the other side. Here is the drawing I made at the time.





Not a very professional looking drawing but it doew the job.:LOL:


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## Ray C

johnnyc14 said:


> Ray, the bolt holes on the base of my PM32 were not symetrical. The holes on one side are 1/4" closer to the edge than the other side. Here is the drawing I made at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a very professional looking drawing but it doew the job.:LOL:



Perfect...  I'll show this to Matt.  I've sent him an email about this because most folks want to make a sub-base before the unit arrives and this throws a wet blanket on that idea...

Just so you know, the bases come from an entirely different factory and all they do is knock-out cast iron stuff.  We can do our best to ask them to be more consistent.  The equipment factories (for motors, gears and bed castings) have contracts.  The peripheral stuff (like bases etc) are not under contract.

Here's a pic of mine and as you can see, this one is pretty good...


Ray


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## Dataporter

I'm insanely jealous...


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## jbolt

Ray C said:


> Wow, I'm actually somewhat surprised because mine were so well aligned and uniform, I figured they must have that casting process pretty well figured-out.  I would estimate that mine were roughly in a +/- 1/16" inch range -which is about as good as you can expect for rough cast iron that's been epoxy coated.
> 
> Anyhow, I do thank you for the heads-up.
> 
> I'm curious, how out-of-whack were yours?  BTW:  I don't doubt you at all...  I want to get feedback on this so maybe Matt can get the factory to address this.
> 
> Ray



Ray, i didn't record any measurements but as I recall is was similar to what Johnnyc14 posted, 1/8" to 1/4" out. My leveling casters are bolted to a 1/2" x 3" steel strap which is then bolted to each side of the stand. I did not make a square frame as others have. 

J~


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## Ray C

Getting all excited to do some welding today to make the sub-base.  The pieces are cut; just need to drill a few holes.  Also need to run down to the hardware store for some big bolts and nuts.

...  I had a talk with Matt about the base.  He says to flip it over and measure between hole centers and you'll likely find its never off more than 1/8".  If you look at the photo from my earlier post, you'll see those holes are pretty clean from the bottom side.  Just moments ago, I measured between centers and they were exactly 15.75 x 17.75" -and I mean, it was dead on.  When you try to measure from any reference point on the lip of the base, things get dicey because, the cast iron is not even and the epoxy coating varies in thickness by almost +/- 1/8".  

Also, when you measure the diameter of the holes from the bottom, they are almost perfect at 5/8".  I will need to correct my drawing of 11/16 because, I measured at the top of the base where the hole is slightly tapered and uneven.

It seems to me that if you plan on the holes being 15.75 x 17.75 C-C and if you use 1/2" bolts, it will be just peachy.

I know a couple people who just ordered machines with these CI bases and they have now joined us for membership.  I will ask them to check their bases when they arrive.


Standby for photos later today...

Ray


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## dave2176

I would agree with Matt. Even on my Grizzly RF45 clone the bolt pattern was square(even) but like an amateur I measured from the uneven casting and got to drill my add on brackets twice. I think if you are going to have angle iron wrapping up around the base it would be wise to wait or leave extra room all around because variations in casting and finishing will happen.

Dave


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## Ray C

How in the world could it possibly be, that it took all day to weld these two beams together?  Shop time was only about 30 minutes -if that much.  Everything in-between -don't ask...  Tomorrow is another day...

Anyhow,  these will be the legs for the sub-base.  And BTW, the 30 minutes of welding was wonderful.  I really like 6013 for light-duty stuff like this.  It's great stuff for tube stock and is exactly in-between 6011 and 7018.  Not too much penetration and still makes a pretty weld.  6011 will dig a hole right through this stuff if you give it half a chance.  I always wonder if straight-up 7018 penetrates enough for single-pass applications.  Good old 6013 seems to split the difference perfectly!  I really think this stuff is under-rated and never understood why it wasn't rated/allowed for structural use.  There must be a reason...

Well, sorry gang, I wanted to get this done, painted and mounted to the base today but it will have to wait till tomorrow.  Sash and I need to go to Lowes to get some big bolts.  The local Lowes allows dogs and she loves that place.

-More tomorrow.  And I promise to not spend all day in the office and on the phone like I did today...





Ray

EDIT:  Fixed a broken sentence.  Brain too fast for fingers...


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## Ray C

OK, finally, I got something done...  Sheesh, what a slow poke I am...

Here you go.  Any ideas for color suggestions?




	

		
			
		

		
	
'

After painting the base comes the hard part...   Getting the mill up on top.  I have a plan (and equipment).


Ray


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## Ray C

Little more progress but won't get as far as I wanted...

Here it is out of the crate.




Whoops, they forgot to put a plug on it... It will have to go back to China  (Don't laugh, people actually call with that kind of stuff).




Here's the back of the control panel.  Very nice and organized back there.  Inside that plastic bag at the bottom is a handheld controller (pendant) so you can operate it manually via electric controls.  This is a new feature.

Now, there is one problem here...  I thought the access to this panel was through a big metal flap but, it's through two half-sized doors that swing open barn-door style.  Because of this, I won't have room to put this down where I wanted to so, plan B will go into effect.  Sadly, I'll need to move my center island work table -and that is not going to be easy.




Anyhow, first things first...  Secure all the peripheral stuff (in this case, the oil pump) before hoisting it.  Use bailing wire so it doesn't fall off and rip the cords apart.   The 5 minutes you spend doing this will save you hours (or days getting replacement parts).




The driver left the crate in a good spot where my chain hoist can get to it.  The overhead door header has two, 2x14 timbers.  Sitting on top of those are 2x6 joists for the ceiling rafters.  I've got a 3" dia heavy wall pipe spanning 6 of those joists and from that, the chain pull is attached. 



This was easy... Just lift high enough to free the pallet and set it on a dolley.  Watch all your cables and wires when doing this.  Make sure nothing gets snagged on the way up or pinched on the way down.





It's tucked inside the garage now.  I can't do more until the center work table is re-arranged.    Since this is a major ordeal, I will do spring-cleaning while I'm at it.

Ray


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## Stonebriar

Now you are in for it. Having to rearrange means searching for stuff later. Thanks for the pics. Nice progress. 
Do you already know how to program for the CNC mill or is this going to be a learning process? 

I have done nothing mine is still on the pallets. Spent all day doing errands for power. The down side of living in the sticks. It takes half a day to go and get anything.

Rick


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## Ray C

Stonebriar said:


> Now you are in for it. Having to rearrange means searching for stuff later. Thanks for the pics. Nice progress.
> Do you already know how to program for the CNC mill or is this going to be a learning process?
> 
> I have done nothing mine is still on the pallets. Spent all day doing errands for power. The down side of living in the sticks. It takes half a day to go and get anything.
> 
> Rick



For all practical purposes, I'm a CNC newby.  That said, about 15 years ago, a good friend was a top-notch machinist who worked almost entirely in CNC.  Some of my background was in very (in-depth) technical programming and when my friend ran into a problem writing G-code, he would consult with me.  -Not that I was a genius in G-code but, I had a very, very rigorous background in technical programming.  I would usually see and solve his issues in a couple hours...  That said, I'm pretty comfortable around CAD as well as manual machines... and as an exercise, I've been programming CAM parts and simulating them for about 6 months now. 

BTW:  I have a friend who is eagerly awaiting me to get this setup.  He intends to shift his $12,000/year parts orders to me.  He makes very specialized parts that I'm not at liberty to speak about...  And this is partly why I setup my company in the last few weeks.

As for rearranging...  I was planning to add an addition to my garage but, the zoning rules will only allow me to move the wall 3 feet -which is not worth the hassle.  I was planning however to do a big rearrangement later in the spring just before warm weather.  It's a big hunk of work with making better shelves and relocating my main worktable.  I'm also going to move out some family items out of the garage and into our back family room which I added a couple years ago.  It will help a lot but, I didn't think I'd have to address this right now...

Ray


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## Ray C

OK, as promised, it will be on the base by Wednesday.

Things took longer than hoped and I got a very late start.  A friend was lending me his lift but when I got there, the hydraulics weren't working -so that wasted the morning.  I went to PepBoys and got this 2 ton unit and while there struck-up a conversation with the guy at the check-out counter.  Turns out he need a couple small things welded and I said no problem.  He gave me the employee discount on the lift and I got that unit out the door for 149 bucks (normally $200).  -Can't beat that with a stick!

Anyhow...  It took longer to get the lift assembled (45 minutes) than it did to put the mill on top (15 minutes). 

I'll position it later tonight yet but right now, the dog is threatening to pick-up the phone and call anti-cruelty because we missed our long walk today...  I knew I shouldn't have taught her to dial the phone...




Ray


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## drs23

Ray C said:


> OK, as promised, it will be on the base by Wednesday.
> 
> Things took longer than hoped and I got a very late start.  A friend was lending me his lift but when I got there, the hydraulics weren't working -so that wasted the morning.  I went to PepBoys and got this 2 ton unit and while there struck-up a conversation with the guy at the check-out counter.  Turns out he need a couple small things welded and I said no problem.  He gave me the employee discount on the lift and I got that unit out the door for 149 bucks (normally $200).  -Can't beat that with a stick!
> 
> Anyhow...  It took longer to get the lift assembled (45 minutes) than it did to put the mill on top (15 minutes).
> 
> I'll position it later tonight yet but right now, the dog is threatening to pick-up the phone and call anti-cruelty because we missed our long walk today...  I knew I shouldn't have taught her to dial the phone...
> 
> Ray



Looking good Ray. How long before you make scrap outta perfectly good metal? )


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## Ray C

drs23 said:


> Looking good Ray. How long before you make scrap outta perfectly good metal? )



With any luck, tomorrow.  I'm taking tomorrow off from the business startup and spending the day on the new mill.  I need a break and this should be fun.  


Ray


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## drs23

Ray C said:


> With any luck, tomorrow.  I'm taking tomorrow off from the business startup and spending the day on the new mill.  I need a break and this should be fun.
> Ray



Of coarse and you know: :thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpictures:

(where's that smiley?):whistle:


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## Ray C

Here we go...  Shop is returning to normal now and the new mill is in place.  Just a little clutter to clean-up. 

I powered-up the mill and connected the computer.  It recognized the controller card and I was able to install the drivers.  It should be ready to go but, I'm new to Mach 3 and need to review a bunch more stuff before making any attempt to make it do something.  By tonight, I'll be happy if I can make the X, Y and Z axis move.

Along the way, I was taking pictures of the he setup process as I intend to make a user manual as I go along.








Ray


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## AlanR

You have a pedestal grinder next to it?

I put mine in a separate room, I don't need grinding grit floating in the air next to my mill. You should see the cloud when I dress the wheel.


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## Ray C

AlanR said:


> You have a pedestal grinder next to it?
> 
> I put mine in a separate room, I don't need grinding grit floating in the air next to my mill. You should see the cloud when I dress the wheel.



As mentioned, there is still a little clutter to clean up...  The mill is now sitting where the grinder used to be and it's temporarily moved a few feet out of the way...


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## AlanR

Ray C said:


> As mentioned, there is still a little clutter to clean up...  The mill is now sitting where the grinder used to be and it's temporarily moved a few feet out of the way...


Still... then the grinder was pretty close to your old mill too.


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## David

I'm ready to see you make a part Ray!  You may just be able to take away some of the mystery and complexity that people like myself associate with CNC.  Thanks for sharing.

Good luck with the business startup!

David


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## drs23

Ray C said:


> Here we go...  Shop is returning to normal now and the new mill is in place.  Just a little clutter to clean-up.
> 
> I powered-up the mill and connected the computer.  It recognized the controller card and I was able to install the drivers.  It should be ready to go but, I'm new to Mach 3 and need to review a bunch more stuff before making any attempt to make it do something.  By tonight, I'll be happy if I can make the X, Y and Z axis move.
> 
> Along the way, *I was taking pictures of the he setup process as I intend to make a user manual as I go along.*
> 
> Ray



Good man Ray. I'm sure future purchasers as far a current owners will benefit greatly. Especially since it will be written in 'mercan. :biggrin:


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## Ray C

Now is the time for me to move carefully.  In three days, I have revamped the entire layout of the shop.  I also moved the surface grinder a few inches, moved the drill press, the dust collector (haven't run the suction line yet) as well as the sandblast cabinet.  There was a small cache of round and flatstock behind the surface grinder and that is now placed outside in the shed with organized shelves.   Good heavens, I must have moved a ton of metal.  I threw a lot out... Something tells me a lot of you guys would like to sort through my drops pile -which is pretty much going in the recycling barrel.  I still need to move the bandsaw and move the welding cart into a semi-permanent position.   Anyhow, a lot of change taking place...    And while doing all this, I'm busy with improvements on the web site, adjusting quickbooks, finalizing and settling all the business permits (finally all done with those as of today)...  The list goes on -and I'm loving every moment!

Anyhow, the addition of a CNC was a strategic move that doesn't need to get rolling for several months.  Now that it's here, I don't want to screw it up on the first day. I'm going to spend a full day of reviewing Mach 3 before attempting to do anything serious.  I'm taking very good notes on every step as well as taking a lot of pictures...  It's very time consuming -and every now and then, my dog insists that I take a break and go for a walk...

Ray


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## mattthemuppet2

Ray C said:


> I threw a lot out...



noooooooooo! You wouldn't happen to be passing by central PA next time you're heading up to Pittsburgh would you?!

congrats on the new mill, looking forward to seeing it up'n'running

ps. I make great coffee


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## Ray C

It's Alive!.....:rocker:

Well, at least 4 out of 5 pieces anyhow...  X, Y, Z and 4th axis (Rotary Table) all move under "manual jog" control through Mach 3.  I have not tried spindle yet and as a matter of fact, can't find a "jog" button in Mach 3 that blips the spindle.    I'll investigate that with a little more reading.

Anyhow, feeling pretty good right now...  This the first time I've ever used Mach 3 and it only took a half hour of transcribing the parameters into the profile -and bingo, the 4 basic axis worked first time...


Ray


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## turner505

Hello jbolt,
I'm looking for a mill/drill and was wondering how you felt about your 932.  I'm only planning on doing model steam and such.  Would yours work for that kind of thing well?
I just took delivery of a new 12 x 36 ShopFox Gunsmith Lathe but don't have lt set up yet. They forgot to send me the stand.
Anyway I'd appreciate your thoughts and opinions.
Ray sure has a nice setup but that's way out of my league and price range.
Thanks,
Houston


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## Ray C

turner505 said:


> Hello jbolt,
> I'm looking for a mill/drill and was wondering how you felt about your 932.  I'm only planning on doing model steam and such.  Would yours work for that kind of thing well?
> I just took delivery of a new 12 x 36 ShopFox Gunsmith Lathe but don't have lt set up yet. They forgot to send me the stand.
> Anyway I'd appreciate your thoughts and opinions.
> Ray sure has a nice setup but that's way out of my league and price range.
> Thanks,
> Houston



Hi Houston...

I think you may have better luck posting the question about the 932 in a different thread or possibly, do a search for it.  It's a very common mill and many people are pleased with them.  I happen to know there are a couple 932 mills in stock.  They have the power downfeed option.  ...No problem posting your question here but you might not get to many answers in this thread.

I will contact you in a private message both about the mills and how to search for information on this list...



Ray


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## wquiles

Great thread.  Thanks Ray for all of the detailed process/pictures :thumbzup:


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## Ray C

Hi Folks...

I finally setup the new table for my keyboard and mouse.  How's it look?  The nice thing about this setup is that if you get ticked-off at the computer, you just put the keyboard on the table and let the mill take care of the dirty work.

Anyhow, except for the 4th axis, the mill is about ready to roll.  I should be cutting my first part in a day or so.




Ray


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## xalky

Hey Ray! It looks good. Is that monitor just sitting on there or is it fastened down somehow?


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## Ray C

xalky said:


> Hey Ray! It looks good. Is that monitor just sitting on there or is it fastened down somehow?



Screwed down with a pivot screw at the back of the base.  That way I can still swing it around a little.  All the wires are tucked away nicely but I need to find some of those glue-on wire ties and stick e'm on the side of the box.

Ray


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## xalky

I'm pretty sure Home Depot has the sticky buttons that you can run a zip-tie through., I've seen them there, if I'm not mistaken, in the electrical dept, around where they have the solderless connectors .


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## Ray C

Well, I won't be able to afford those glue-on wire loom tabs...  I pulled the trigger on a 4 axis CAM program today.

After a lot of analysis, trying the demos (without actually cutting parts) and driving the support people crazy at 4-5 different CAM vendors, I went with BobCAM.  Lot's of reasons and rationale behind the decision but, it seemed right for me and my needs; the user interface and setup wizards seemed reasonable.  Only time will tell.  ... It seems like a good starting package and am keeping my fingers crossed it was the right selection long term

BTW, if you go on their web site and look at the prices, don't freak-out.  If you call and talk to a salesman the prices are considerably lower and there's a lot of room for negotiating.

Ray


----------



## Ray C

I finally got around to looking more closely at the 4th axis.  It's working fine but in all probability, it will be a long while before I'm ready to use it.  It took about 2 minutes to get working with Mach 3.

It's 6" rotary table with a 5" chuck.  There's tailstock with it but, I didn't feel like degreasing it today.

Here's a little eye-candy...  




Ray


----------



## bloomingtonmike

Looks nice!

Is that 4th axis just a stepper? How well will it work with no indexing/encoder/feedback to the controller for ensuring position?? Seems like a hope that it wont miss a step. Are you just planning to zero it out on mach just like you do with your other 3 stepper axis?

I own a DIY cnc spindled 52X62X8 router with mach and now a servo/encoded 10X50 Millport kneemill with centroid. On the router, for wood, plastic, and light alum, the stepper setups are fine but I have not pulled the trigger on the cheaper chinese 4th axis for it. I have my controller ready for it though and have even thought of just adding a full 4th axis lathe. For the mill I keep looking at the servo driven 4th axis and even used they are $3-4K plus another $2K in a 4th axis and servo/encoder for it.

Ill be curious how you like that stepper 4th axis setup for a mill.

As a coincidence, friend bought Bob CAD today too. He got student license prices as he is just a hobby guy - he runs a DIY G0704 CNC'd out.

I am learning inventor, solidworks and the HSM cams for both as well as conversational on the centroid. I have vectric vcarvepro and aspire i run on the router. I hear ya on all the software out there!!!


----------



## Ray C

bloomingtonmike said:


> Looks nice!
> 
> Is that 4th axis just a stepper? How well will it work with no indexing/encoder/feedback to the controller for ensuring position?? Seems like a hope that it wont miss a step. Are you just planning to zero it out on mach just like you do with your other 3 stepper axis?
> 
> I own a DIY cnc spindled 52X62X8 router with mach and now a servo/encoded 10X50 Millport kneemill with centroid. On the router, for wood, plastic, and light alum, the stepper setups are fine but I have not pulled the trigger on the cheaper chinese 4th axis for it. I have my controller ready for it though and have even thought of just adding a full 4th axis lathe. For the mill I keep looking at the servo driven 4th axis and even used they are $3-4K plus another $2K in a 4th axis and servo/encoder for it.
> 
> Ill be curious how you like that stepper 4th axis setup for a mill.
> 
> As a coincidence, friend bought Bob CAD today too. He got student license prices as he is just a hobby guy - he runs a DIY G0704 CNC'd out.
> 
> I am learning inventor, solidworks and the HSM cams for both as well as conversational on the centroid. I have vectric vcarvepro and aspire i run on the router. I hear ya on all the software out there!!!



...  Well, I'm curious how much I'll like it too; actually, I'm more curious about WHEN I'll be in position to use it.  I'll certainly let everyone know when I get that far.  When the time comes, I don't plan to do sophisticated things nor do I have long term plans for sophisticated operations on this machine.  Matter of fact, I only got the 4th axis option on this machine because I've had several parts that needed a 1:2  (1 turn in 2") oil groove on a shaft -and that's the only use I foresee.

It's going to take a few more days before I'm cutting metal on this setup.  The BobCAD/CAM will take a few days to get here as, the actual package is mailed, not downloaded.  I have no intentions of downloading a temporary freeware CAM program just to cut a test part... I'm not in a great hurry (and I'm too busy doing other things).

Anyhow, I know someone who is cutting some turner's cubes on this same setup -so it can't be all that bad.

As for stability of the motor and losing steps...  A rotary table is a 40:1 ratio -and the reverse torque is insanely small.  I'll also couple that with a profile that slows down the acceleration rates to try to minimize skipped beats.

We shall see (some day)...

Anyhow, the CNC bug has bit me pretty hard -just wish I had more time to devote to it.


Ray


----------



## Boswell

Ray C said:


> ...  Well, I'm curious how much I'll like it too; actually, I'm more curious about WHEN I'll be in position to use it.  I'll certainly let everyone know when I get that far.  When the time comes, I don't plan to do sophisticated things nor do I have long term plans for sophisticated operations on this machine.  Matter of fact, I only got the 4th axis option on this machine because I've had several parts that needed a 1:2  (1 turn in 2") oil groove on a shaft -and that's the only use I foresee.
> 
> It's going to take a few more days before I'm cutting metal on this setup.  The BobCAD/CAM will take a few days to get here as, the actual package is mailed, not downloaded.  I have no intentions of downloading a temporary freeware CAM program just to cut a test part... I'm not in a great hurry (and I'm too busy doing other things).
> 
> Anyhow, I know someone who is cutting some turner's cubes on this same setup -so it can't be all that bad.
> 
> As for stability of the motor and losing steps...  A rotary table is a 40:1 ratio -and the reverse torque is insanely small.  I'll also couple that with a profile that slows down the acceleration rates to try to minimize skipped beats.
> 
> We shall see (some day)...
> 
> Anyhow, the CNC bug has bit me pretty hard -just wish I had more time to devote to it.
> 
> 
> Ray



Ray, this is awesome. The stepper for the 4th axis sure does stick out far from the mounting. Do you think you could mount on the right side of the table or would the stepper interfere with the column?  I have had two thoughts on were I might use a 4th axis. The first is for a LEGO part that I am making. I currently machine the bottom and then manually rotate the part in the vise so I can then machine the top. It would be must faster to use the 4th axis to do that rotation for me. How big is the through hole in the chuck?


----------



## Ray C

A quick update...

So far, my machine is functioning fine and everyone I know of has got their machine up & running.  I'm still in the process of writing the basic setup manual for the actual machine.  I should be done in a couple days.

My focus has shifted to the BobCad-CAM software.  So far, I'm impressed.  The step-by-step videos match the manuals very well and the manuals provide slightly more detailed information.  The help system has been very accurate and each page and it's corresponding description of the parameters is very detailed.  Of course, these resources cannot tell you how to do the right thing at the right time but, at least the fundamental information is all there and easy to get to.

Something I find very cool...  You can model the spindle and your tool holders with a very simple modeling tool; it took me 5 minutes to figure-out w/o reading the manual.  The cool thing is that it takes all those modeling parameters and does "collision detection" and it shows you what your setup actually looks like in the simulation.   If you have the pro-version, you can load STL files of your entire mill and it shows your whole mill running and does collision detection when you generate the tool path.

Unfortunately, this program is just a small piece of what's going on in my life -and it's going to take a couple more days before I'm in a position to make chips.

Anyhow, so far, I'm feeling pretty good about this software.  It was pretty expensive and we all know, once you buy it, it's yours forever.

Ray


----------



## Ray C

Seriously guys, I'm asking that you wish me a little luck here... I'm about to cut my first part with the mill using BobCAD/CAM to make the G-code.  Two big steps at one time...

Full report later tonight...


Ray


----------



## wquiles

Ray C said:


> Seriously guys, I'm asking that you wish me a little luck here... I'm about to cut my first part with the mill using BobCAD/CAM to make the G-code.  Two big steps at one time...
> 
> Full report later tonight...
> 
> 
> Ray




Good luck Ray )


----------



## Boswell

Ray C said:


> Seriously guys, I'm asking that you wish me a little luck here... I'm about to cut my first part with the mill using BobCAD/CAM to make the G-code.  Two big steps at one time...
> 
> Full report later tonight...
> 
> 
> Ray




Eagerly waiting on your report (and pictures)


----------



## jumps4

good luck Ray  )
did I ever show you my 90 degree bent 1/2" endmill from forgetting a decimal point?
the shanks are soft and will bend if they hit the vise really hard   lol
steve


----------



## Ray C

Success!

I had some problems getting the machine and part coordinates to agree.  Somehow got it figured-out but I'll be darned if I know how I did it.

The stock is 1" square aluminum and the cut was just a 0.8" square cut 1.0" down with rounded off corners on the top 0.75" and two divots that are 0.25" deep and inset 0.125" in.

The dimensions came out about 5 thou undersize.  Need to get to the bottom of that.

Not disappointed except for it taking so long to get setup.




Ray

(PS:  The shop is well lit but the iPhone camera doesn't adjust exposure very well).


----------



## 09kevin

Congratulations on your first cut, Ray! That’s a nice looking setup you have.  Is it possible that the end mill you used to cut the profile is oversize? I know some of my high speed end mills are .002/.0025 over size, If you described the end mill inBobCAD at .500 and its actually larger it would cut the profile undersize, I doubt if the end mill is .005 over but it’s something to look at. The only other thing I can think of is the holder could have run out. 

Kevin


----------



## Ray C

jumps4 said:


> good luck Ray  )
> did I ever show you my 90 degree bent 1/2" endmill from forgetting a decimal point?
> the shanks are soft and will bend if they hit the vise really hard   lol
> steve



Hey Steve, did that setup look safe enough?  ... Junkiest vise in the shop, with a 5" long piece of aluminum that will push over if it crashes in the X or bend if crashed in the Y.  

My max table speeds could be outpaced by a glacier -but somewhat faster than plate tectonics.   :impatient:


Ray


----------



## Kennyd

Ray C said:


> Seriously guys, I'm asking that you wish me a little luck here... I'm about to cut my first part with the mill using BobCAD/CAM to make the G-code.  Two big steps at one time...
> 
> Full report later tonight...
> 
> 
> Ray



Ray, I made my "first cut" with a pencil when I got my new/old CNC'd Bridgy.  Sexy it wasn't, but it boosted my confidence a little.  Unfortunately life (and my side business) has gotten in the way so I cant devote much time to mastering it anymore.


[video=youtube;9MDKMulAllU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&amp;v=9MDKMulAllU[/video]


----------



## jumps4

there is nothing wrong with taking it slow 
I have my max speed set to 50 ipm still, I'm not doing production
have you used the " set steps per unit " button in the lower left of the settings screen in mach3 to calibrate yet?
also, leave the gibbs slightly loose until the machine settles in, too tight causes excessive backlash caused by torque build up before motion.
I set mine tight and could not hold any accuracy.
also the .005 could be the flex in the material being so tall, the endmill could have sucked the material in.
do not set the backlash compensation in mach3 with the gibbs tight you will get false readings.
If you want me to, I'll explain the way to properly set the gibbs and backlash in your thread or make a short video showing how I learned to do it and post a link?
steve


----------



## Ray C

jumps4 said:


> there is nothing wrong with taking it slow
> I have my max speed set to 50 ipm still, I'm not doing production
> have you used the " set steps per unit " button in the lower left of the settings screen in mach3 to calibrate yet?
> also, leave the gibbs slightly loose until the machine settles in, too tight causes excessive backlash caused by torque build up before motion.
> I set mine tight and could not hold any accuracy.
> also the .005 could be the flex in the material being so tall, the endmill could have sucked the material in.
> do not set the backlash compensation in mach3 with the gibbs tight you will get false readings.
> If you want me to, I'll explain the way to properly set the gibbs and backlash in your thread or make a short video showing how I learned to do it and post a link?
> steve



50 IPM -You Indy driver you...  I'm set at 30.

I really think the issue was material flexing.   The top-wise dimensions were good but side dimensions were short.  I'm not worried about it right now but yes, I did set the steps per unit and checked it with travel and test indicators.  It was dead-on in test conditions.

Yes, by all means, show how to do backlash adjustments etc...

Thanks...
Ray


----------



## jumps4

Ok I'll put together a video showing what I have learned and post a link here when I get it finished.
warning my best friend says my videos put him to sleep and require a lot of coffee to watch
steve


----------



## Ray C

jumps4 said:


> Ok I'll put together a video showing what I have learned and post a link here when I get it finished.
> warning my best friend says my videos put him to sleep and require a lot of coffee to watch
> steve



Steve...   Don't feel bad.  Everyone in my household rolls their eyes every time I walk out of the shop and start talking about the latest project.

Anyhow, a new day bring new revelations. I made a slightly smaller and different test part.  Also solved the homing issue and switched to a 2 flute HSS endmill.  I have no idea what I was thinking when I grabbed a 4FL carbide...  Anyhow, this one looks really nice and the dims are only off about 1.5 thou this time.  Finish wise, I dare say, it's about as good as if I turned the radius on a lathe and cut the flats with the manual mill.   

Time to quit while I'm ahead and pay some attention to a million other things...





Ray


----------



## bloomingtonmike

Do you guys have accessable inputs on your controller?

Are you guys just manually jogging the Z down and then zeroing out?


----------



## Ray C

bloomingtonmike said:


> Do you guys have accessable inputs on your controller?
> 
> Are you guys just manually jogging the Z down and then zeroing out?



Mike,

I do not have a probe if that's what you mean.  I believe (but am not certain) the controller has a couple available inputs and I could indeed add a probe -and I will as soon as I get my feet on the ground...  Danger: Steep Learning Curve Ahead (LOL).

Anyhow, yes, I'm jogging down and then stepping in 0.0001 until touch off.  Believe it or not, it accurately steps that precisely in all dimensions.


Ray


----------



## bloomingtonmike

Ray C said:


> Mike,
> 
> I do not have a probe if that's what you mean.  I believe (but am not certain) the controller has a couple available inputs and I could indeed add a probe -and I will as soon as I get my feet on the ground...  Danger: Steep Learning Curve Ahead (LOL).
> 
> Anyhow, yes, I'm jogging down and then stepping in 0.0001 until touch off.  Believe it or not, it accurately steps that precisely in all dimensions.
> 
> 
> Ray



If the head/tooling is grounded you can wire a single strand or wire to a small pcb plate, wire that to the input, and have the tool jog down automatic to the pcb and touch off on it. You dont need a probe right away and teh pcb setup should cost you about $1 with long wire.

I use the mach blue big tex screen and it has the script already on it for single and dual plates. You edit the script on the buttons for whatever movement you want.

I put a banana plug port on my X carriage so I could just plug in the pcb when needed. I run dual plates. One is on teh bed permanently and the other I use on top of the work piece. This allows for simple tool changes and the second + tool change just touches off on teh fixed plate (that is out of the way).

Maybe i need a video to make this more clear?

Here is good info too.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/mach-wizards-macros-addons/56079-xyz-probe-modification.html


----------



## jumps4

Ray so I didn't clutter up your thread I have posted the first video on backlash compensation on my thread with a link;
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=19633&p=187038#post187038
I'll have to break it up into a few videos to keep it shorter and not include all the setup time
this first one is about what is happening under the table   lol
it's not for the pro machinist I know they know this stuff but the hobby guys like me may not.
steve


----------



## noman

Ray, have you thought about how to get the pendant that came in the box up and going? are you using BobCad with any good results?  joseph


----------



## Ray C

noman said:


> Ray, have you thought about how to get the pendant that came in the box up and going? are you using BobCad with any good results?  joseph



Yes, the pendant works.  Initially, I told Mach 3 to ignore it and now that I think of it, maybe the instrucionts I wrote does not include the proper settings.  I will check.


I am having some issues with BobCAD and they're due to importing the data files.  There was not much information in the training videos on how to do it but, after asking and a lot of experimentation, I found the right combination of tricks to make it happen.  I can do 2D paths without too much issue now; while before, I was struggling.  I haven't tried any 3D paths since my latest revelations but, I suspect things will go smoother.  For really simple shapes, I had no problems with 3D paths but when doing contours, I hit a wall.  I think it will be better the next time I try.

If you're not using a stand-alone CAD program (in my case Alibre/Geomagic) you won't have the same issues if you use their internal CAD program.  I've grown really fond of parametric solid modeling so, I prefer not to use BobCAD's CAD functionality; thus, I need to learn a few extra steps.

Ray


----------



## twr

Great thread Ray, anymore input about BobCAD? My new to me cnc should be here fri. and i will need some sort cad/cam software program.


----------



## Ray C

twr said:


> Great thread Ray, anymore input about BobCAD? My new to me cnc should be here fri. and i will need some sort cad/cam software program.



No great revelations as of this time...  The 2D work is coming along fine -dare I say, very well.  I'll try more 3D this weekend and that's when I'll know for sure.

I'm doing some offsite work right now and am delayed with my investigation.

What CAD package are you using?


Ray


----------



## drs23

Ray C said:


> No great revelations as of this time...  The 2D work is coming along fine -dare I say, very well.  I'll try more 3D this weekend and that's when I'll know for sure.
> 
> I'm doing some offsite work right now and am delayed with my investigation.
> 
> What CAD package are you using?
> 
> 
> Ray



So...Hangin' on a yak is work? I delivered them for quite a few years and considered it a PAID VACATION! Bahamas, Florida, New Jersey? Not a problem. Fill up the fridge and the expense account and we're outta there!


----------



## Ray C

drs23 said:


> So...Hangin' on a yak is work? I delivered them for quite a few years and considered it a PAID VACATION! Bahamas, Florida, New Jersey? Not a problem. Fill up the fridge and the expense account and we're outta there!



Not having fun here... That's an older CAT with a weird PTO and a slip-shod mounting.  I'm in and out of the engine hold disassembling it and figuring-out how to design a new assembly.  It takes 5 minutes to wiggle/struggle into position.  Also doing some sheave work on the alternators and main generator.  Next one I'm working on is much bigger and among other heavy mechanical things, will be making custom dial face borders and trim for the instrument panel.

Ray


----------



## turner505

*Hey Ray,
That DRO we spoke about.  Will that pretty much eliminate any error from backlash? Guess what I'm asking is will it help you get really good tolerances? Much better than without and probably much easier?
Thanks,
Houston*


----------



## Ray C

turner505 said:


> *Hey Ray,
> That DRO we spoke about.  Will that pretty much eliminate any error from backlash? Guess what I'm asking is will it help you get really good tolerances? Much better than without and probably much easier?
> Thanks,
> Houston*



Well, yes... Kinda.  The backlash is physically still present but, it is completely, 100% accounted for in the scale readings and thus, whatever number is showing on the screen is the position of the table.


Ray


----------



## Ray C

Finally found some time to actually fiddle with the CNC machine today.  Most of the time, I dream-up parts, draw them in CAD then, setup toolpaths in CAM and just run the simulation.  The simulation is very good and all it needs are some sound effects and maybe throw some chips around and there'd be no need to actually mill anything -just make virtual parts all day long .  On a more serious note, the value of simulation is to analyze the tool path and tweak it to go easy on the tooling and also produce the best possible finish.  The simulation won't show the finish but, by watching how the bit engages the material -and from prior experience of using manual mills, I can predict fairly well how the finish will look.

Anyhow, here's a non-virtual part that the machine took about 35 minutes to make.  I'm pretty impressed with the quality of the part and accuracy of dimensions.  The semi-circle is supposed to be 0.25 (radius) and best I can measure, it came out to 0.2497.

I've also been practicing a part that's coming-up for a job and this piece shows one of the shapes involved.

As shown, the piece is totally fresh out of the mill.  Just wiped with a rag.  No deburring, polishing etc...





Ray


----------



## dave2176

I like it! Is that surface one setup with 2 tools?

As far as the sound effects and simulated chips, Mach is very plug-in capable. I see an opportunity for you. :lmao:

Dave


----------



## Ray C

dave2176 said:


> I like it! Is that surface one setup with 2 tools?
> 
> As far as the sound effects and simulated chips, Mach is very plug-in capable. I see an opportunity for you. :lmao:
> 
> Dave



One setup, one tool.   It was a planar move.  Image the bump being lined-up in the Y axis (front to back as you're standing in front looking at it).  The bit started at one corner moved in the X direction and went gradually up in Z to make the bump, gradually went down in Z to make the other half of the bump and the flat on the other side; followed by a 10 thou increment in Y -and the process repeated.

The bit was a 1" carbide.  1" was chosen to give a large circumference so horizon of each 10 thou move would only be roughly a ten-thou.  It's amazingly smooth.

Ray


----------



## dave2176

I can't see any stepping on the bump so I thought it was maybe a round over. Now I'm really impressed. 
Dave


----------



## Ray C

dave2176 said:


> I can't see any stepping on the bump so I thought it was maybe a round over. Now I'm really impressed.
> Dave



I was really testing a few things with this part.  A)  Make sure I knew how to set it up in CAM.  B) Set course-level tool paths for optimum finish.  C)  Verify that my backlash adjustments were OK.   D)  I'm trying to design a simple part so I can test calibration and performance of the machine in the future.  E) See what happens when I set the CAM software to a machine precision level of 0.0002" -besides making the tool path calculations very time consuming.


Ray


----------



## Ray C

To heck with CNC and CAM...  To make this part, I put it in the vise, laid a piece of really hard 1/2" dia metal on the top and whacked it really hard with a hammer.  I had to use some Kung-Fu on that hammer!  It dented in the back real good and pushed the circle out the front side  :whistle:...








Ray

PS:    [3/8" carbide ball mill @ 2000 RPM @ 11.5 ipm.  Took about 11.5 minutes].


----------



## waddell

Howdy Gang,

I've been looking at this machine for a while now and still vascillating on whether to pull the trigger on one or go the more arduous conversion route on a machine with the larger 9x39 table? Something along the line of an IH model 12Z or a ZX45L.  Price of an IH turnkey CNC is not in the cards 

I like the idea of just bucking up and having an operational machine dropped at my doorstep, but I do have a few parts in mind that could take advantage of the longer table and X travel of a conversion.

What kind of backlash are some of you seeing on the PM machines?

waddell


----------



## Ray C

waddell said:


> Howdy Gang,
> 
> I've been looking at this machine for a while now and still vascillating on whether to pull the trigger on one or go the more arduous conversion route on a machine with the larger 9x39 table? Something along the line of an IH model 12Z or a ZX45L.  Price of an IH turnkey CNC is not in the cards
> 
> I like the idea of just bucking up and having an operational machine dropped at my doorstep, but I do have a few parts in mind that could take advantage of the longer table and X travel of a conversion.
> 
> What kind of backlash are some of you seeing on the PM machines?
> 
> waddell



My backlash adjustment in X is 0.0002 (2 ten-thousandths) and Y is 0.00015.  I haven't checked Z as I'm first now starting to make 3D parts.   Most of the parts I've made so far are coming-out within a half-thou tolerance and the main reason for that error seems to be related to the "many times sharpened" carbide bits I use.  When I critically measure the bits and re-gen the tool paths with up-to-date numbers, things are coming-out about dead-on.  This has far exceeded my expectations but am fully aware that ALL machines will loosen-up a bit over time.

Keep in mind, I'm still in the learning phase and I'm making fairly simple parts.  I assure you though, I'm quite thorough in my procedures and methods...


Ray


----------



## waddell

Ray,
Are those numbers raw or after some compensation?  I thought I read some ways back that you had some runout in your circular interpolation?

What kind of numbers are other guys getting?

Is the cast iron base a valuable option or would one be better off building a tubular stand and fill the tubes with sand or lead shot?

How about the coolant option........or stay with Koolmist?


Thanks in advance,
waddell


----------



## Ray C

waddell said:


> Ray,
> Are those numbers raw or after some compensation?  I thought I read some ways back that you had some runout in your circular interpolation?
> 
> What kind of numbers are other guys getting?
> 
> Is the cast iron base a valuable option or would one be better off building a tubular stand and fill the tubes with sand or lead shot?
> 
> How about the coolant option........or stay with Koolmist?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> waddell



Initially, I was getting a consistent measured error (i.e consistently incorrect) in X of just over a half thou and in Y, it was about a half thou.  I initially plugged in those corresponding numbers into Mach 3 and it way over-corrected.  I cut the initial entered values in half and bingo, measurable error in parts and measurable backlash is next to nothing.   In a sampling of several small (ranging in size from 1/2" to about 2.5") aluminum and steel parts all measured within about +/- 0.0005.  

If you look at some of my other posts about this machine, I commented about experimenting with different CAM toolpaths to achieve better finishes.  My prior knowledge of manual machining combined with analyzing toolpaths also helps set the part up properly to get good results.  I've also paid nearly $1000 in additional CAM training to learn how to get the most out of the software. 

Anyhow, on the realistic side, I fully expect that in-time, some additional compensation may be needed -this ain't a $275,000 Mori Seike.

Coolant:  I hate flood coolant with a passion.

Bases:  Cast iron is always preferable but, I have the normal steel base under my non-CNC PM45 and I have no complaints.  I think making a tube steel frame and filling with cement and lead shot will be time consuming, costly -and (LOL) in the worst case, create an EPA nightmare on the day you decide to retire it...



Ray


----------



## Boswell

I have not done any work requiring critical tolerances and I am not a trained machinist so I won't comment in that area but as for the cast Iron base vs making a base and turnkey CNC vs conversion. My only question is
Q1: would you rather be making parts or making tools. 
For me, I have much less interest in making my tools than using them so I went with the PM-45M CNC and have been very happy.  OK. I don't mind making some of my tools when there is not an equivalent tool that can be purchased.



waddell said:


> Howdy Gang,
> 
> I've been looking at this machine for a while now and still vascillating on whether to pull the trigger on one or go the more arduous conversion route on a machine with the larger 9x39 table? Something along the line of an IH model 12Z or a ZX45L.  Price of an IH turnkey CNC is not in the cards
> 
> I like the idea of just bucking up and having an operational machine dropped at my doorstep, but I do have a few parts in mind that could take advantage of the longer table and X travel of a conversion.
> 
> What kind of backlash are some of you seeing on the PM machines?
> 
> waddell


----------



## Thomas Paine

1/2 thou, hey... That's way better than i thought on one of those machines.  Now you just need a 50 pot toolchanger and your good to go.


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## Ray C

Thomas Paine said:


> 1/2 thou, hey... That's way better than i thought on one of those machines.  Now you just need a 50 pot toolchanger and your good to go.



Would love a tool changer... Need to pull in more machining jobs to pay for it though...

It took about 4-5 tries on a particular test piece to get it dialed in.  Also, as mentioned, there's a lot you can (and need to) do to optimize the CAM tool paths to make it cut clean.  The CAM program suggests various feeds and speeds and has many types of entry/exit techniques -and many other configurable parameters and cutting paths.  Without some background in manual machining and knowing how those factors impact the outcome, it would be difficult to get that kind of precision right out of the box.  Must emphasize though, the issue is not the machine -it is very capable... It's how it's programmed that makes the difference.  I probably ran the simulation 40 times and watched it very closely to make sure the machine was doing exactly what I knew would produce decent results.

-And for the record, I broke my first tool bit the other day...  I was manually moving the head to zero the tool and instead of hitting Z-, I hit X- and in a split second, a $50 carbide tool was worth $0.

Ray


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## jpfabricator

Ouch. I dont have cnc, but I know those costly mistakes well.

Jake Parker


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## JimDawson

Ray C said:


> Finally found some time to actually fiddle with the CNC machine today.  Most of the time, I dream-up parts, draw them in CAD then, setup toolpaths in CAM and just run the simulation.  The simulation is very good and all it needs are some sound effects and maybe throw some chips around and there'd be no need to actually mill anything -just make virtual parts all day long .
> Ray



If you don't mind my asking, what CAM program are you using?


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## Ray C

JimDawson said:


> If you don't mind my asking, what CAM program are you using?



Short answer:  No, I don't mind at all.  BobCAD/CAM V26, 3 Axis Pro with 4th Axis toolpath extension option.

Long answer:  Was undecided about MecSoft vs BobCAD after very careful feature/performance/training/price comparison and long-term demo analysis.  MecSoft has a very convenient plugin that works with my CAD program of choice (Alibre/Geomagic Professional with motion and stress analysis add-ons).  With BobCAD, solid files must be exported by Geomagic and imported into BobCAD. Initially this seemed fine but at the onset, I was having difficulties learning/understanding the pros/cons of various solid input file types.  It took a couple of "all-nighters" (quite literally) to figure it out.  BobCAD's 6-DVD training series is excellent but, it's hard to find specific answers by re-watching 70 hours of video.  -Was initially annoyed -but nothing is allowed to get the best of me.  Finally made headway and saw the light.  After become more self-proficient, I signed-up for one-on-one online training (very expensive) but, was armed with very specific and advanced questions.  I took the last of the 4 hour long training sessions this morning.  I see the light now.

In retrospect, either solution is probably good but, cannot fully comment on MecSoft as I don't know it as well as I now know BobCAD.  BobCAD sales offered some very good discounts.  -No dice with MecSoft.  FYI, both companies purchase the intellectual rights of the toolpaths from the same company.  My initial feeling now is that BoBCAD is better on the pocketbook and offers an advantage if someone hands you a solids file and says "cut it for me".  Big difference between the two is that BobCAD has an AutoCAD-like built-in CAD functionality whereas Geomagic is a parametric-based CAD; thus, I had to learn some aspects of Auto-CAD style CAD editing.

BobCAD:  Very stable so far.  IMO, much better workflow for CAM setup.  A little bit less expensive -not as convenient to use with Geomagic.  I won't get rid of Geomagic -outstanding CAD, motion analysis, stress analysis, BOM, sheetmetal ops, 2D Mech layout drawings....  BobCAD doesn't even offer those things.

I'd like to learn MecSoft for the heck of it....

Ray

FWIW, when I finished the training today, the instructor had me speak to the director of training.  He asked me if I'd be interested in training to become a certified instructor...  LOL, I told him I've only been using the program for 6 weeks.  -He didn't believe me.  Who knows, maybe I'll look into that opportunity....


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## JimDawson

Thank you very much Ray.

I am currently using CamBam, a pretty good CAM program for the price but a bit limited in scope.  By fudging you can create a sudo-3D tool path.  On the other hand it's only $150, you get what you pay for.

I am looking for a true 3D CAM program for when I get my Z-axis conversion finished.  I have been playing around with CAM360 by AutoDesk, but it is still in beta.  AutoDesk did provide a post processor to my specs that works with my software, but I'm not married to them.


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## Ray C

JimDawson said:


> Thank you very much Ray.
> 
> I am currently using CamBam, a pretty good CAM program for the price but a bit limited in scope.  By fudging you can create a sudo-3D tool path.  On the other hand it's only $150, you get what you pay for.
> 
> I am looking for a true 3D CAM program for when I get my Z-axis conversion finished.  I have been playing around with CAM360 by AutoDesk, but it is still in beta.  AutoDesk did provide a post processor to my specs that works with my software, but I'm not married to them.



Good luck (intended sincerely).  It's a tough decision.  Suggest trying to find some quality time and individually get the demo versions of BobCAD, MecSoft etc and really give them a solid evaluation.  I poked and prodded about 5 packages for 2-4 weeks each giving each a fighting chance and trying to overcome any prejudice I developed toward the first vs, second vs, third... package evaluated.

The top programs out there are all pretty good -most are getting their tool paths from the same "brain trust" that develops such things -no doubt, a small team of Ph.Ds and heavy-hitting programmers.  

I found myself breaking it down into 1) CAD ability/likeability.  2) CAM job/workflow setup.  3)  Strength of Simulator.  3) Price and maintenance fees.

In my book, BobCAD won in all categories but #1.  -Nearly killed myself getting past the Auto-CAD-like CAD interface -but fortunately, you don't need to do much with it.  

BTW:  There are some second-tier CAM programs out there.  -None are really geared for "machine shop" use and lean toward Hobby/Artistic/Woodworking purposes.  -All fine and well but the weakness can be foreseen in 1-2 days of using the demo.  I spoke to the author/owner of one of those packages and his advice to me was not to purchase his product as, it's strengths lied in areas opposite to my intended purposes.

... Understand the "pain" your going through now.  Good luck...

Ray


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## fast freddie

Ray C said:


> Well... I pulled the trigger today on a PM 45 CNC mill.  Wheew, that was a long hard decision to jump into CNC.  It's not advertised but, it's available with 4th axis and since I'll only go around once in life, I decided to give myself the ability to screw things up in every dimension.
> 
> This will be interesting...
> 
> Anyhow, I've had a couple jobs now where someone wanted quantities of 5 on a milled item -and I can't keep saying no.  I have another situation lined up where someone needs quantities of 50 and 100.  -Not a a real complicated part but, I have no desire to manually make more than 2 or 3 of anything...
> 
> 
> Ray



hey that's great, I wish I was cnc literate


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## zmotorsports

Looks good Ray.  CNC work is cool in itself.

I must say, I thought my shop was cramped.  DAMN!!!  Yours is tight.

Looks like a nice setup though.

Mike.


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## Ray C

zmotorsports said:


> Looks good Ray.  CNC work is cool in itself.
> 
> I must say, I thought my shop was cramped.  DAMN!!!  Yours is tight.
> 
> Looks like a nice setup though.
> 
> Mike.



Oh, heck, it's not cramped... It's "cozy".

Seriously though, the space is laid-out fairly well and since I work mainly on smaller parts, it's fine.  The only time I have problems is while constructing something like a large welded structure.  That's when things get cramped and messy.  Truth be known, I'm doing much less of that kind of work -as per plan.


Ray


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## countryguy

*Re: Too funny! Pulled the Trigger on a PM 45 CNC...*

This was my 1st choice on an import2US CNC Setup!  This thing looks great!  Someday we should try to setup a group buy$ with PM.  He has this X45 clone and sub-system setup 'dialed in'.    I like what they are doing there for sure.    I ended up buying a used Shopmaster Patriot for 1/2 the price (w/ CNC, ballscrews, 4th axis, rot-chuck, blabla) and going w/ sweat equity to configure and dial it all in.   But I'll have one of these next and give the Kid my "learner clunker".  

115 posts.. Seems an Odd number-  Up to 116 now!    Some comments:   Was ON THGE FLOOR ROLLING over some of the posts by Ray C!  Hilarious Man!   Write us a daily column pls! LOL.     Hit it real hard w/ a hammer....  hahaha . 

I have DolphonCam Mill Pro.  Not too polished and its powerful, but So-so on the GUI.    And I think you are right.  Design in 3D is very rewarding.  And to then simply simulate is about as good as it can get.  No mounting fuss, no forgetting the head lock, no "opps - I dropped it on it's head" moments.      I agree -  someone sell a bag of "3d CAM simulated chips" for your 3d cam simulations setup.   WE'll cut up silver craft paper      Maybe a few blue ones for good measure too.....  ;-0   

a fun post to read thru!    CGout Work'n time.


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## Ray C

*Re: Too funny! Pulled the Trigger on a PM 45 CNC...*



countryguy said:


> This was my 1st choice on an import2US CNC Setup!  This thing looks great!  Someday we should try to setup a group buy$ with PM.  He has this X45 clone and sub-system setup 'dialed in'.    I like what they are doing there for sure.    I ended up buying a used Shopmaster Patriot for 1/2 the price (w/ CNC, ballscrews, 4th axis, rot-chuck, blabla) and going w/ sweat equity to configure and dial it all in.   But I'll have one of these next and give the Kid my "learner clunker".
> 
> 115 posts.. Seems an Odd number-  Up to 116 now!    Some comments:   Was ON THGE FLOOR ROLLING over some of the posts by Ray C!  Hilarious Man!   Write us a daily column pls! LOL.     Hit it real hard w/ a hammer....  hahaha .
> 
> I have DolphonCam Mill Pro.  Not too polished and its powerful, but So-so on the GUI.    And I think you are right.  Design in 3D is very rewarding.  And to then simply simulate is about as good as it can get.  No mounting fuss, no forgetting the head lock, no "opps - I dropped it on it's head" moments.      I agree -  someone sell a bag of "3d CAM simulated chips" for your 3d cam simulations setup.   WE'll cut up silver craft paper      Maybe a few blue ones for good measure too.....  ;-0
> 
> a fun post to read thru!    CGout Work'n time.



The simulator is the weak link (in-jest)...  It needs the following functions:  1)  Must spray Koolmist in your face from the keyboard.  I'm thinking of replacing the video camera lens on the laptop cover with a KookMist nozzle.  2)  The PC doesn't shake or vibrate.  Perhaps a large version of a cell phone vibrating mechanism will do.  3) No sound effects.  It needs to make noises that engender satisfying cutting sounds to sphincter puckering, adrenaline moments.  4)  PC needs modification so you can pretend to put raw stock in the simulator -kinda like a Barbie and Ken easy-bake oven.

...  Anyhow, on a serious note.  The machine continues to function well.  No problems to report.  I cranked-out a 125 part job in a couple weeks.  Each part took 1 hour.  Toward the end, I setup two vises and home locations with G54 and 55.  I've got another job coming up for the Naval Academy that will be about 200- 400 pieces but, much simpler.  

I have not heard much from my clients who own these -which is a very good sign.  So far, all the issues with clients have been traced back to Mach 3 glitches and/or misunderstandings.  I have one fellow who had a run-away jog situation but, it appears to be keystroke bug in Mach 3 combined with a glitch in his USB keyboard.  It's definitely not the machine or controller though.

I still strive to do more complex parts; so much so, I'm now working on being a certified BobCAD instructor.  I'm also an authorized BobCAD/CAM distributor as of a couple weeks ago.  The info is on Matt's page as I'm keeping my commercial information separate from this forum.

Ray

PS:  When running the simulator, it helps to throw a couple handfuls of chips around to help get into the groove.


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## Marco Bernardini

*Re: Too funny! Pulled the Trigger on a PM 45 CNC...*



Ray C said:


> The simulator is the weak link (in-jest)...  It needs the following functions:  1)  Must spray Koolmist in your face from the keyboard.  I'm thinking of replacing the video camera lens on the laptop cover with a KookMist nozzle.  2)  The PC doesn't shake or vibrate.  Perhaps a large version of a cell phone vibrating mechanism will do.  3) No sound effects.  It needs to make noises that engender satisfying cutting sounds to sphincter puckering, adrenaline moments.  4)  PC needs modification so you can pretend to put raw stock in the simulator -kinda like a Barbie and Ken easy-bake oven.



I hope there will be a Linux version of this :roflmao:

BTW, I guess if I get a CNC machine my first code will be something using a 2H pencil in the collet, lowering the rubber end to type itself (in G-code) on a keyboard… recursive CNC!


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## Earlkonig

Any updates Ray?  I am just curious how things are holding up.


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## damo green

Hi guys, I'm tying to set up the backlash compensation on my PM45CNC  , but I can't see any effect from it . Actual backlash on X is only .001" , but even if I test it with inflated values there is no change from .001" .  I've tried shuttle acceleration from .oo5 to 1.0  , still no difference.  Enable is checked, I tried restarting Mach3 as the pop  up instructs, even though most how to videos don't mention this.  I saw someone on a different forum was also having issues with this, but it sounds like Ray must have it working...any help is appreciated. I'll post if I figure it out.


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## countryguy

The famous hoss video on YouTube is a great tool.   Shuttle speed is .005 on general congfig.  I set the backlash speed to 80%.    The docs note to keep under 100%.   Just saw that yesterday.    

What type of screws and returns are used in this mill?     Do you know?    Ground or wrapped?  
Ray noted .0001 bl in x I think on his note?   That is so small and I do not know if Mach can do anything in tens?   Thou only I thought?     Anyone?  

Keep us posted. Jj.


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