# Finding Lathe and Mill Work



## Brad125 (Apr 11, 2022)

So, I am sure this has been asked before but I have been trying to find some work to do in my basement shop to help pay for some tooling and as a side job. I haven’t had any luck finding jobs. I even ran an post in my local Facebook classifieds with no luck. There is 1 big machine shop in town but they do almost all cnc high production jobs, I now this because I worked there for 6 years and they rarely ever had manual machines running. I have also been trying to come up with ideas to make a product to sell but have also come up short. I would like to have my own job shop since my fiancé has a good full time job at local company and I am a stay at home dad at the present time. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, pms are also welcome. Plus making money with my machines would sure make a good excuse for getting more tooling but paying some bills would be a big plus as well.


----------



## MyLilMule (Apr 11, 2022)

If you're a qualified machinist, you just need to hustle. Posting ads on FB is not going to get you much. Cold call business. You're going to have to be able to hear "no" 100 times before someone says "yes". Do a great job and get referrals. There is no simple solution to starting a business. Find a customer need and fulfill it.

If you're a hobbyist (like me) - just do it for fun for friends, family and neighbors. And maybe, occasionally one of them will refer you to a friend and you can charge them.


----------



## markba633csi (Apr 11, 2022)

You might want to add welding capability- seems like there are always folks that need a bit of welding but can't justify the cost of 
a welding machine
-M


----------



## NCjeeper (Apr 11, 2022)

Craig's list ad
Website
Google ad
Hit up the local businesses with preprinted flyers and business cards.


----------



## silence dogood (Apr 11, 2022)

There are lots of projects of tools that you will need to make to add to your tooling. Gray's drafting and design kits come to mind. Do a good job on them and you can use these as samples of your work to show to your clients.


----------



## mmcmdl (Apr 11, 2022)

I never had a problem getting free work with the shop .   When you tell someone that a bolt will cost you $80 is where the problem lies . People are used to walking into HD and buying a 50 cent bolt , and don't take your time into account . Use your equipment to branch out to other $$$$ avenues . Repairs to equipment etc . Think about what every homeowner has and needs . Once the word gets out , the work comes to you .  You have to remember we now live in a throw away society .


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 11, 2022)

knocking on doors would probably be more effective than mailing out fliers, but fliers do occasionally work.  Have some samples of your work along with business cards and you will slowly start to get some business.  Local processing industries need parts all the time, one that I often recommend is the local wastewater treatment plants, they go through parts much faster than other process type industries, and the OEM parts are very expensive.  Talk to the maintenance manager, they will be able to send work your way.  To get work from them, you will have to be a legal business if you are not already, they are not likely to set you up as a vendor if you are not at least a sole proprietor.  I see a country club in your town, they have a lot of golf carts that might need parts, maybe irrigation pumps for watering the course.  Also, talk to your local hardware store, they get people in every day that are trying to fix something broken, and if they are willing to recommend you, that could be a path to some revenue for your shop.  If there is a robotics club in your area, they probably need parts made and might be a source for you.


----------



## mmcmdl (Apr 11, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> If there is a robotics club in your area, they probably need parts made and might be a source for you.


If you've ever watched BattleBots on the tube , these guys are all sponsored by SolidWorks and Smart Cam which I thought was pretty cool . And the show wasn't too bad either .....................................beats Hallmark Christmas movies any day .


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 11, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> If you've ever watched BattleBots on the tube , these guys are all sponsored by SolidWorks and Smart Cam which I thought was pretty cool . And the show wasn't too bad either .....................................beats Hallmark Christmas movies any day .


I hide in my workshop during the Christmas season so I don't have to watch the same plot for a hundredth time!  My son watched those shows and I thought he would want to build something, but sadly never had the interest to join the local club.  He's leaving for college in the fall, maybe my time to be a kid again


----------



## Chewy (Apr 11, 2022)

Get in touch with farmers, loggers, construction type people.  They always need some kind of odd thing made or altered.  Work real cheap until you start to get backed up and then you can start to recover money.  I did a lot of my work for a company just for the metal.  I bought 2-3 times the material needed.  If I made a mistake, there was extra there to make another piece without a 40 mile round trip to the supplier.  If I didn't I got metal for my own projects. If I needed a special endmill or drill, the customer paid for it.


----------



## vocatexas (Apr 11, 2022)

Chewy beat me to it. With the state of the supply chain these days, there are people unable to buy replacement parts for equipment. Many farmers have been stretching the time they keep equipment due to the increasing cost of replacement. Most hay balers, combines, feed grinders, etc. have shafts that wear out bearing lands, splines, and keyways. If you can repair/replace a part and keep a machine going a couple more years, it's worth it. Try looking for independent shops that work on farm and industrial equipment.

I'm kind of in the same boat myself, so I know what you're going through.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 11, 2022)

I am not currently setup as a business yet, I am an experienced machinist though but don’t know everything. There always room to learn and acquire new skills. I was looking for repair work like others have stated, especially repairing equipment. I can also weld but am not great yet. It’s good enough for general work but I am by no means some great professional welder.


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 11, 2022)

You want to make sure to get your business set up before starting work, and if machining services are taxable in your state, set up with the tax collection agency of your state.  If you are supposed to collect tax and don’t, you will be responsible for it if you get audited, as well as late fees and any fines.  

Your home owners insurance likely will not cover your shop once you start charging for work.  Check with them and see if you can add that on to your policy, otherwise you will need a separate business policy.

Repair work will always be needed, and you will be more valuable if you can do emergency repairs.  It seems most places would rather pay premium rates to fix it once it breaks instead of planning ahead.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 11, 2022)

I’ll have to look into sole proprietor then, I figured there will always be a need for repair work the issue is finding it. Though many on here have given some good ideas. It would be great to finally find some work, I really like machine repair work and it would really give me a sense of pride again like I use to have. Being a stay at home dad can be really tough at times and I feel like I lost that sense of accomplishment and pride I once had when I was a machinist.


----------



## matthewsx (Apr 11, 2022)

Plenty of good advice above, especially about operating above board and getting licenses/insurance. Yes, painful at first but better in the long run so you know if you’re making a profit or not.

Did you leave the shop you worked at on good terms? If yes then that’s the first place to start. If they’re the only game in town they probably have folks coming to them they would like to help but can’t. They might also have one off jobs they would rather farm out than tie up an employee.

Good luck,

John


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 11, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Plenty of good advice above, especially about operating above board and getting licenses/insurance. Yes, painful at first but better in the long run so you know if you’re making a profit or not.
> 
> Did you leave the shop you worked at on good terms? If yes then that’s the first place to start. If they’re the only game in town they probably have folks coming to them they would like to help but can’t. They might also have one off jobs they would rather farm out than tie up an employee.
> 
> ...


The job I left wasn’t on good terms, there was a lot of stuff going on in there that I didn’t agree with morally. But that was quiet awhile ago. I talked to a fellow a few weeks ago and he said all he had to do was go to the few shops around his area and within a week he had more than he could handle. Working long nights and weekends doesn’t bother me. I am a night owl and like being up working on my stuff after the fiancé and kids go to bed. So I could get anywhere from 4-6 hours per evening working on jobs plus weekends when I am just sitting at home. Lots of time I could be making a few bucks rather than sitting on my behind watching tv.


----------



## Brento (Apr 12, 2022)

Same boat you are in. I will be setting up my taxable business around May after tax season. Idk if i will ever need it but i will atleast have a tax ID number and can atleast go around and ask for work more. Right now my only potential customer is a guy that needs tons of stuff remade for old motorcycles. But until i get something sent to me to quote or hard parts in my hand to look at. I will remain to be seen.


----------



## sdelivery (Apr 12, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> I’ll have to look into sole proprietor then, I figured there will always be a need for repair work the issue is finding it. Though many on here have given some good ideas. It would be great to finally find some work, I really like machine repair work and it would really give me a sense of pride again like I use to have. Being a stay at home dad can be really tough at times and I feel like I lost that sense of accomplishment and pride I once had when I was a machinist.


Being a stay home Dad is hard but don't loose self esteem. 
The job your doing with raising a child is one of the greatest things you can do.
You are helping to form the next generation ..have patience your time will come.
I am proud of you. Hold your head up Dad!


----------



## KyleG (Apr 12, 2022)

Make sure your business shows up on Google maps when you set it up, and stand up a website, even if it’s a basic one. 

Get out in front of people. Trade shows, business cards, fliers. We are always glad to have new options, I assume others are as well.


----------



## mmcmdl (Apr 12, 2022)

Back in the day , I lived in the heart of corregated box territory . Koppers was 2 miles down the road . Ward Machine , Mitsubishi Heavy Industries , Prime Technology , Sun Automation , JL Wickem , Lenox Lazer etc. were all a stones throw away . Things slip thru the cracks at ALL companies and they need stuff in a hurry so I was able to keep busy . If it has a long lead time , forget it , it better be dirt cheap . I had a 24 hour turn around time and could charge a good rate . My little basement shop ran 16 hrs. a day/night , this after both of us worked our regular jobs . It was fun for awhile , until the jobs became a second job . My advise , and it's only mine TIFWIW , find something else that the shop will support and make $$$$$$ . My thing was old tractors . IH , Cubs , sometimes even the green ones too .  So , this is 10 years after the fact , but still get tractor calls and I do them . I can do hydraulic lines , everyone has them on tractors and splitters etc . But every house has a lawn tractor , and nowadays , cheaply made ones at that . I'll get a free tractor , stick a $12 ignition in it and sell it for $600 any day . Which reminds me , I have a CC 1811 to get out .


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 12, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> I’ll have to look into sole proprietor then, I figured there will always be a need for repair work the issue is finding it. Though many on here have given some good ideas. It would be great to finally find some work, I really like machine repair work and it would really give me a sense of pride again like I use to have. Being a stay at home dad can be really tough at times and I feel like I lost that sense of accomplishment and pride I once had when I was a machinist.


I am a stay at home dad too that gave up my engineering career to raise my kids so my wife could travel for her job, I know exactly what you are going through.  I started a photography company to keep active since I was shooting my kids sporting activities anyways, I definitely needed to do something.  The important thing is to make sure you get all the regulation things done properly so you don’t regret that later, then work will come your way once people know about you.  It might take a while, but it will happen if you keep trying.


----------



## addertooth (Apr 12, 2022)

Lots of good advice already given.  I would suggest going to local car shows.  Print some cards and hand them out at the shows (especially vintage car shows, those guys have serious problems finding parts).  Hot rodders are constantly trying to do stuff that a "kit" does not exist for.

For me, my shop "enhances other hobbies".  I restore antique fountain pens. I buy old broken ones for a song and a dance (because their problems are so severe, they require a custom part fabricated for them). The shop is used to machine that missing/damaged part.  Fabrication is the only real choice for parts, as the factories which made those parts closed 20 to 80 years ago.  Those repairs take a junker pen (viewed as an unrepairable parts pen), and adds a hundred dollars (or more) to the value.  Most people in the pen restoral hobby don't have a machine shop at their disposal.

In the same vein, there is a local machinist who buys broken riding lawnmowers.  Often they don't work due to minor engine problems, or things like pulleys, brackets and bearings which failed. He restores them and triples his money. 

Hang out with the RC car, boat, plane folks.   They are constantly looking for some kind of custom plate/bracket/shaft to repair or build their project.

Your base question should be...
Who would want and need custom parts, and also have the disposable income to pay for it.


----------



## mmcmdl (Apr 12, 2022)

addertooth said:


> In the same vein, there is a local machinist who buys broken riding lawnmowers. Often they don't work due to minor engine problems, or things like pulleys, brackets and bearings which failed. He restores them and triples his money.


I will attest to this . Easy money . Look back a few posts .


----------



## Chewy (Apr 12, 2022)

Look to trade. Just did a disk harrow for a neighbor. I have the tools to repair and he doesn't.  Took it apart and the square shaft has the corners rounded off.  He took it to be welded and I will put it together.  All together I will have 1 to 1-1/2 hours in it.  He will bring his loader over and load 3-4 pickup trucks full of dirt for me to take to daughters house.

Cost is 1-1/2 hours of time and air compressor electricity. 
Not shoveling dirt into a pickup truck. Priceless


----------



## Chewy (Apr 12, 2022)

Try something.  If you can get into a business, look around and see if there is anything you can make to make them more efficient.  Keep it real simple. I watched people hammering over tabs on a seat mechanism.  I told them there was a better way and to find an old vise from the dump or tag sale which they did. I make a set of aluminum specialty jaws and gave them to them.  They paid for the aluminum.  As in a previous post, I buy 2-3 times the material and keep it the leftovers. The jaws hold everything in perfect alignment and gives a stable platform to hammer the tabs. Now I get called for everything.  I actually go over there and help do a task and then invent something to make it easier or quicker. 

Sure beats sitting around the old folks home playing checkers!


----------



## matthewsx (Apr 12, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Back in the day , I lived in the heart of corregated box territory . Koppers was 2 miles down the road . Ward Machine , Mitsubishi Heavy Industries , Prime Technology , Sun Automation , JL Wickem , Lenox Lazer etc. were all a stones throw away . Things slip thru the cracks at ALL companies and they need stuff in a hurry so I was able to keep busy . If it has a long lead time , forget it , it better be dirt cheap . I had a 24 hour turn around time and could charge a good rate . My little basement shop ran 16 hrs. a day/night , this after both of us worked our regular jobs . It was fun for awhile , until the jobs became a second job . My advise , and it's only mine TIFWIW , find something else that the shop will support and make $$$$$$ . My thing was old tractors . IH , Cubs , sometimes even the green ones too .  So , this is 10 years after the fact , but still get tractor calls and I do them . I can do hydraulic lines , everyone has them on tractors and splitters etc . But every house has a lawn tractor , and nowadays , cheaply made ones at that . I'll get a free tractor , stick a $12 ignition in it and sell it for $600 any day . Which reminds me , I have a CC 1811 to get out .


Excellent point, l ran a lawnmower repair shop and if I could have done it from my house it would have been profitable. Also easier to buy/fix/sell than working for others.


----------



## matthewsx (Apr 12, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I am a stay at home dad too that gave up my engineering career to raise my kids so my wife could travel for her job, I know exactly what you are going through.  I started a photography company to keep active since I was shooting my kids sporting activities anyways, I definitely needed to do something.  The important thing is to make sure you get all the regulation things done properly so you don’t regret that later, then work will come your way once people know about you.  It might take a while, but it will happen if you keep trying.


Actually this is how I got into my racing kart business and later the power equipment shop. My wife had a great career but someone needed to drive our kid to school and make dinner so that was me.  

The path wasn’t perfect but our daughter graduated high school at the top of her class and now has a masters in engineering management and works for a top biomedical company making more than either of us.  

Raising good kids is worth whatever sacrifice it takes.  Hang in there dad


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 12, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Actually this is how I got into my racing kart business and later the power equipment shop. My wife had a great career but someone needed to drive our kid to school and make dinner so that was me.
> 
> The path wasn’t perfect but our daughter graduated high school at the top of her class and now has a masters in engineering management and works for a top biomedical company making more than either of us.
> 
> Raising good kids is worth whatever sacrifice it takes.  Hang in there dad


Thank you, same here.  With all the kids activities, two careers just wasn’t going to happen, and my wife was better at keeping her mouth shut about stupid corporate policies . My dad traveled a lot when I was growing up and I did not want that for my kids, so I never regretted doing this one bit.  I get my fill of engineering now in my workshop, and helping people here, and the only bean counters I have to deal with now is my wife when she notices a new charge from McMaster-Carr lol.

My oldest graduates from high school this year and is going into computer science, he is a far better student then I ever was and did very well in school, and I am looking forward to see where his future goes.  We are doing his last college visit this Friday, so we should know soon where our travel plans will be for the next four years.  My daughter is four years behind him, and has five dance classes per week, so I have at least that long before my wife tells me to get back to work!


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

Yes it’s true, being a stay at home dad can be tough and lonely at times. However I love watching my boys growing up. There still young but I am trying to raise them so they have more opportunities than I did. That way they can have a solid foundation to either work for themselves or have a career in a field where they won’t have to struggle. 
I just want to be able to help pay bills and help save for a house.


----------



## gjmontll (Apr 12, 2022)

I've done a few machining jobs for my neighbors, usually making some custom fitting or replacement parts.
If I was looking for more, I'd talk with various businesses such as hardware, farm supply, auto parts, maybe even commercial machine shops. 
Tell them, " if a customer has some odd/custom need, give them my contact information and we'll see if I can help."


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

Any opinions on finding work vs making a product to sell? Even though I have drawn a blank when it comes to brainstorming what I could possibly produce that people would buy and still make a decent profit.


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 12, 2022)

With products come high marketing costs.  Once you find a product that might have good demand, you need to spend a lot of effort actually selling it.  Are you good at sales?  Are you willing to put in the time to do it?  If not, then it will be tough to be successful.  You might be better off going in the job shop direction and then when a good product idea comes along, work on it and see where it goes.  Something to consider is with a product, there will always be someone out there knocking it off.  Unless you have a patent on it, there is nothing you can do to stop them other then being the better mouse trap.  A patent also only gives you the legal right to sue, it doesn’t by itself stop anyone from copying it.

For the job shop plan, someone earlier suggested offer cheap rates to start out.  I don’t recommend that, it is difficult to start cheap and then raise prices later and keep your customers.  It would probably be better to offer an introductory discount that is clearly stated on the invoice, that way they see your real rate and when the discount expires, they are not taken by surprise.  In my business, I always make sure someone knows the price they are getting has a discount applied if it is not my full rate.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> With products come high marketing costs.  Once you find a product that might have good demand, you need to spend a lot of effort actually selling it.  Are you good at sales?  Are you willing to put in the time to do it?  If not, then it will be tough to be successful.  You might be better off going in the job shop direction and then when a good product idea comes along, work on it and see where it goes.  Something to consider is with a product, there will always be someone out there knocking it off.  Unless you have a patent on it, there is nothing you can do to stop them other then being the better mouse trap.  A patent also only gives you the legal right to sue, it doesn’t by itself stop anyone from copying it.
> 
> For the job shop plan, someone earlier suggested offer cheap rates to start out.  I don’t recommend that, it is difficult to start cheap and then raise prices later and keep your customers.  It would probably be better to offer an introductory discount that is clearly stated on the invoice, that way they see your real rate and when the discount expires, they are not taken by surprise.  In my business, I always make sure someone knows the price they are getting has a discount applied if it is not my full rate.


I see, I do rather prefer the job shop path but another question would be how to figure out hourly rate? Material and overhead cost i understand. Now I own all my machines and tooling so I dont have to worry about payments. I always prefer to go that route so I don’t have to worry about adding more monthly payments other than living expenses. I just want to start out small and grow into a bigger business that makes enough to add a decent income into the household. But I don’t know if I can file for a Sole Proprietor because I rent a house right now and I believe I would need the permission from the landlord but he is well I just say not co-operative at all. There isn’t any available spaces to rent a garage in my area and that would also add a major expense that we can’t afford right now. Heck there is a empty garage in the bottom of my yard that would be perfect for a job shop, lots of room but the landlord refuses to rent it to me for additional money over our current rent for the house even though he doesn’t use it and it just sits there.  Always seems like I am always stuck in a rut and can’t ever try and make my life better, I always feel like everyone else dictates how I have to live.


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 12, 2022)

That is a difficult situation.  You likely would need your landlord’s permission to operate a business in that house, but that doesn’t mean you couldn’t start working on a plan to own a job shop.  At this time, it might be best to volunteer your skills to build a reputation until you can find a building cheap enough, or you are able to get a house you can use for your shop.  You could work underground doing cash sales for homeowners, but that involves the risk the state and or city finds out you are running an unregistered business.  If the landlord finds out, he could evict you.

I understand the desire to help the family out, but the best way to help them might be to bide your time until you are in a better situation so that you do not risk putting everyone in a difficult situation.


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 12, 2022)

Skipped over the hourly rate.  I’m not a machinist, but I do have a photography company and figuring out hourly rates is similar.

I never quote an hourly rate to customers unless it is for events since they are paying me for a certain number of hours to be onsite.  As a machinist, you are completing a task, so it would be best to give a price based on your cost to operate the business.  Customers want to know what it will cost and not something open ended.  Your job is to figure out how much time it will take to do, sometimes you will be right, sometimes wrong, but the longer you quote, the better you will get.

You want to factor in the cost of the equipment you use even if it is paid off.  What happens if something happens to your lathe and you need to buy a replacement?  Same with tooling, measuring equipment, etc.  You can’t increase your rate to pay for the replacement, so might as well charge based on the cost from the beginning.  I used the replacement value of the equipment I use in my business and then use a typical interest rate that if I invested that money I would receive.  I’ve been using 8%, but you might want to use a different number.  Let’s say I have $50,000 worth of equipment, at 8%, that is $4,000 in annual equipment costs I want to recover through my business.   Add to that your other overhead costs, maintenance, phone, insurance, taxes, rent, etc that are not based on how many hours you work.  Now figure out how much salary you want for the year and how many hours you can work at this (productive hours, not paperwork hours).  You need to add in the variable costs here, ie the cost to operate your equipment based on the number of hours can work per year.  You can’t use all available hours as billable since you need to make sales calls, do paperwork, etc that is not billable to a customer.  Divide all your costs by the billable hours and that becomes your break even cost.  Add some profit on to that since the entire point of owning a business is to make more money than you could elsewhere and now you have a baseline hourly rate to charge.  If you bought a CNC machine for example, you could come up with a separate rate for that machine based on the cost of using that machine and the lower rate for your cheaper manual machines.  When you go through these costs, the number will surprise you, but if you want to make money, you need to charge an appropriate amount.

This website shows a similar process, but with financing equipment.  https://www.cnccookbook.com/cnc-machine-hourly-rate-calculator/


----------



## matthewsx (Apr 12, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> Any opinions on finding work vs making a product to sell? Even though I have drawn a blank when it comes to brainstorming what I could possibly produce that people would buy and still make a decent profit.


It depends on where you're starting from. A lot of guys who build things to sell have a hobby where they know of a niche product that's needed and who might want it. This includes hobby machining and you know where to find us....

One advantage of building something over taking in work is you don't have to tell everyone in town that you're in business. If you're taking orders on the internet and sending out packages you can probably get started with less overhead and your development costs are making something that you can use.

As noted, your town and your landlord will make a big difference on what you can get away with. Some places you can have half a dozen lawnmowers out in front with a for sale sign, other places your neighbors will call code enforcement on you. Ask your landlord if your plans will be a problem and read the zoning regulations for where you are before hanging out your shingle.

Start simple and work your way up, keep track of your expenses and what does and doesn't work. And be open to opportunities that don't include the machine shop, there's lots of needs out there and for some it's better to keep hobbies and work separate.

John


----------



## JimDawson (Apr 12, 2022)

I have a bit different vision on doing machine work in general.

Having owned machine tools for over 50 years, and doing commercial type work for much of that time I can tell you that making chips for a living is the hard way to go.  Too much competition out there, somebody else can do it better and faster than you can.  There is no way I would ever try to become a job shop.  Occasionally I do some job shop type work or short run production as a favor to a customer or a neighbor needs a broken tractor part repaired (will work for food    )  We make piles of chips every month now, but it is 99% for our own in-house manufacturing for a product we sell.  

Having said that, machine tools are very handy for providing a solution to a problem in some cases, but they are just another tool in the box.  All of my machine tool purchases were to have the tool available to do a specific job.  The fact that I could later use them for another job had no bearing on the original purchase.

What I do sell is solutions to problems.  I have made a career out of doing the ''impossible'' and tackling stuff that nobody else would touch.  I did start out with a basement shop and contacted some local shop owners to see if they had work that they didn't want to do.  Also I was working for a local company at the time as a millwright and they had me make some parts for them as needed.  Your most valuable tool for bringing in work is just chatting with people and letting them know that you are available.

Your family/housing situation does somewhat limit your options, but there is always a workaround.  One of the things that you could do is contract CAD/CAM work since you already have some exposure to that in your 6 years at a CNC shop.  

Best of luck.


----------



## matthewsx (Apr 12, 2022)

Definitely like where @JimDawson is going here.

Some CAD courses and a fast computer and you are an independent contractor making far better money than running a machine.  You can also work for anyone literally anywhere. Get good with 3D printing and you’ll really have something to put food on the table.

John


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> I have a bit different vision on doing machine work in general.
> 
> Having owned machine tools for over 50 years, and doing commercial type work for much of that time I can tell you that making chips for a living is the hard way to go.  Too much competition out there, somebody else can do it better and faster than you can.  There is no way I would ever try to become a job shop.  Occasionally I do some job shop type work or short run production as a favor to a customer or a neighbor needs a broken tractor part repaired (will work for food    )  We make piles of chips every month now, but it is 99% for our own in-house manufacturing for a product we sell.
> 
> ...


I know my current living situation does limit my ability to start a job shop. I know my landlord will not agree to it. I got my gunsmithing certification to do that but when it came time to file paperwork he said NO even though prior to me getting it he said “sure”. So, even though I want to pursue a job shop type business I think trying to find things to produce myself would be the way to go for now. I do have some exposure to CAD but I don’t think I could do that all day. I am into shooting, hunting, fishing and machine repair. Thoes are the categories I would prob try and develop something to produce. There were a few other suggestions mentioned here that may also be prospective to research.


----------



## JimDawson (Apr 12, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> I am into shooting, hunting, fishing.......



There is always something in those areas that ''everybody needs'', but isn't available on the market.  What related widget do you wish you had, but you can't buy?  If you think that you need it, then 10,000 other enthusiasts also need it.

We sell a truck camper related product to solve a problem that exists with all campers, and that the camper manufactures won't provide.  It's taken about 4 years from concept to full on production, but we can't keep up with the orders.  And I might add, there was a lot of CAD work involved.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> There is always something in those areas that ''everybody needs'', but isn't available on the market.  What related widget do you wish you had, but you can't buy?  If you think that you need it, then 10,000 other enthusiasts also need it.
> 
> We sell a truck camper related product to solve a problem that exists with all campers, and that the camper manufactures won't provide.  It's taken about 4 years from concept to full on production, but we can't keep up with the orders.  And I might add, there was a lot of CAD work involved.


Exactly but I sit here and try and think of things but the harder I think the less I come up with. Now I have though of things but we’re already produced much cheaper than I couple make it for. I know another good category would be camping. I just draw a blank. Must have a kind of “writers block” I guess.


----------



## JimDawson (Apr 12, 2022)

Sometimes I have my best ideas when I'm totally lost in something unrelated and just allow my mind to drift.  I have come up with some of my best ideas while taking a shower.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> Sometimes I have my best ideas when I'm totally lost in something unrelated and just allow my mind to drift.  I have come up with some of my best ideas while taking a shower.


Yea, I maybe trying to hard. Thing is how to go about trying to sell thoes things? eBay? Facebook? I seriously considers maying parts for machines like my lathe that can’t be bought anymore but usually there isn’t a real high demand for that kind of stuff. I have had a lot of demand for gunsmithing work but I just can’t do it where I live. I have had people tag my name on FB for people looking for a gunsmith. Thing is I didn’t even know the people who tagged me. Word got around without me doing anything.


----------



## martik777 (Apr 12, 2022)

I had a lathe  for sale on facebook marketplace and was asked if I could do batch work for a local company. Been busy ever since.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

martik777 said:


> I had a lathe  for sale on facebook marketplace and was asked if I could do batch work for a local company. Been busy ever since.


Seriously?


----------



## JimDawson (Apr 12, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> Thing is how to go about trying to sell thoes things? eBay? Facebook?



Facebook is our primary advertising medium.  User groups are amazing for getting the word out, and of course we have a website with an online store.  https://www.stablecamper.com/

My son also travels to the various camper rallies around the country, tax deductible vacations.


----------



## mickri (Apr 12, 2022)

I think that your current landlord will never agree to anything.  Time to move to a place where you can do something.  There seems to be a never ending demand for gunsmithing.  You are already getting request for gunsmithing work.  If you have the appropriate licenses, go for it.


----------



## mickri (Apr 12, 2022)

Read the Somerset zoning regulations.  Home occupations are permitted in R1 zoning. http://www.somersetborough.com/zone/r1.html 

Home occupations are rather vaguely defined. http://www.somersetborough.com/zone/page60.html  Scroll down the page to find home occupations. Reading between the lines it appears that allowable home occupations include just about anything that does not generate traffic or objectional noise, odors and the like.  Home occupations can only be operated by persons living in the home.  No outside employees.  I did not see anything about gunsmithing in the zoning definitions.  It seems that as long as there is no outside visible evidence that a business is being conducted on the property the business should be ok.

Don't know if this helps or not.


----------



## KyleG (Apr 12, 2022)

Another option is to take jobs from Xometry. We use them for quick turn jobs. We get parts with labels from all sorts of outfits, from job shops to gunsmiths taking on side work.


----------



## Brento (Apr 12, 2022)

KyleG said:


> Another option is to take jobs from Xometry. We use them for quick turn jobs. We get parts with labels from all sorts of outfits, from job shops to gunsmiths taking on side work.


Only thing with Xometry is the test parts. Both of them are geared more for cnc. Now i am not saying they cant be done manually bc i looked into becoming a Xometry partner but with my small of machines and the fight to get the good work before everyone else when i have a normal 9-6 job as well? It wasnt worth trying to do the test parts.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

mickri said:


> Read the Somerset zoning regulations.  Home occupations are permitted in R1 zoning. http://www.somersetborough.com/zone/r1.html
> 
> Home occupations are rather vaguely defined. http://www.somersetborough.com/zone/page60.html  Scroll down the page to find home occupations. Reading between the lines it appears that allowable home occupations include just about anything that does not generate traffic or objectional noise, odors and the like.  Home occupations can only be operated by persons living in the home.  No outside employees.  I did not see anything about gunsmithing in the zoning definitions.  It seems that as long as there is no outside visible evidence that a business is being conducted on the property the business should be ok.
> 
> Don't know if this helps or not.


Yes I actually went to a local lawyer in town and verified that I was indeed allowed to do gunsmithing at my current residence however  I wanted to form an LLC and that means I can have no mix of personal life where the business is to be conducted. Meaning I can’t have any items I use for my own personal use such as a washer or dryer for example in the area business will be conducted. Business and personal have to be split. I could have done a sole proprietor but I don’t want that I want an LLC. No mater either way cause I am not allowed too. Cost for lawyer here is 6,000.00 to do the paperwork.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

KyleG said:


> Another option is to take jobs from Xometry. We use them for quick turn jobs. We get parts with labels from all sorts of outfits, from job shops to gunsmiths taking on side work.


What is Xometry? Never heard of them before.


----------



## KyleG (Apr 12, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> What is Xometry?


They're essentially a middle man for job shops and customers. From the buyer's side, you upload a part and they quote it for you pretty quickly. Then they farm the work out to shops who have extra capacity. It looks like they post jobs on a board, and shops pick ones to take on.

https://www.xometry.com/become-a-supplier/

As much as I'd love to hate them, I just can't. I really think they add value to both sides of the transaction.


----------



## mickri (Apr 12, 2022)

LLC's provide liability protection from business debts.  If your business goes belly up you are not liable for the business' debts.  But a person is always personally liable for any harm that they cause.  For example suppose you make a negligent repair on a firearm.  And your negligence causes injury to someone.  Operating your business as an LLC will not shield you from personal liability for your negligence.

The best protection from personal liability is having adequate insurance.  Insurance provides two main benefits.  First of course is to cover liability.  Second and maybe even more important is providing you with a defense to any suit that is brought against you.  Very few people and/or small businesses have the where with all to pay for the defense of lawsuits.

Being that you are going to be the only person working in your business and will most likely not have much in the way of business debts, an LLC might not provide you with the protection that you believe it will.  You need to get good legal advice on this.

I am not trying to rain on your plan.  Just trying emphasize how important insurance will be to you and your business.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

mickri said:


> LLC's provide liability protection from business debts.  If your business goes belly up you are not liable for the business' debts.  But a person is always personally liable for any harm that they cause.  For example suppose you make a negligent repair on a firearm.  And your negligence causes injury to someone.  Operating your business as an LLC will not shield you from personal liability for your negligence.
> 
> The best protection from personal liability is having adequate insurance.  Insurance provides two main benefits.  First of course is to cover liability.  Second and maybe even more important is providing you with a defense to any suit that is brought against you.  Very few people and/or small businesses have the where with all to pay for the defense of lawsuits.
> 
> ...


I completely understand, it was the advise from my lawyer to file and LLC, I then contacted a company for insurance aswell. It was awhile ago but I remember insurance was pretty high.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 12, 2022)

KyleG said:


> They're essentially a middle man for job shops and customers. From the buyer's side, you upload a part and they quote it for you pretty quickly. Then they farm the work out to shops who have extra capacity. It looks like they post jobs on a board, and shops pick ones to take on.
> 
> https://www.xometry.com/become-a-supplier/
> 
> As much as I'd love to hate them, I just can't. I really think they add value to both sides of the transaction.


That seems very interesting, do you have any personal experience with them or what is required to start? You can pm me with the answer if you prefer.


----------



## mickri (Apr 13, 2022)

Good to hear you are getting legal advice.


----------



## Brento (Apr 13, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> That seems very interesting, do you have any personal experience with them or what is required to start? You can pm me with the answer if you prefer.


To become a partner you have to do a test part and send it to them. They send you s lathe part first and then if you pass then you can do lathe jobs and then there is a mill test part. Same ordeal as the other part.  As i said above though is that the parts are geared more for cnc machines. Not saying you cant do it manually but ig would be time consuming.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 13, 2022)

Brento said:


> To become a partner you have to do a test part and send it to them. They send you s lathe part first and then if you pass then you can do lathe jobs and then there is a mill test part. Same ordeal as the other part.  As i said above though is that the parts are geared more for cnc machines. Not saying you cant do it manually but ig would be time consuming.


Oh I see, yea I don’t want any feature rich parts like that. It would take a long time to make on manual stuff. Plus my equipment don’t have dro’s yet. However I don’t have trouble keeping tight tolerance with dials. The mill is a little harder than the lathe though.


----------



## gard (Apr 13, 2022)

I think there would be a market for someone to make slow speed carbide grinder like the old glendo accufinish.  Slow speed or better yet variable speed, 6" diamond discs, reversible, lots of examples on the internet.  All kinds of attachments, fixtures are possible for sharpening specific tools.

I  enjoy repairing old equipment, I know a logger that uses old equipment, he is always bringing me something that is worn out, replacement could cost thousands even if it is even available. I look at the part, try to figure out what it looked like new and why and design and build something at least as strong as what it was new. Often involves the welder, lathe and mill.  It seems like there are 2 types of people in logging and other trades. One buys new equipment uses it, and has high overhead (loans) and high production, trades up when it starts having problems.. The other buys used equipment, pays for repairs (in cash) instead of loans, accepts lower productivity.


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 13, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> Yes I actually went to a local lawyer in town and verified that I was indeed allowed to do gunsmithing at my current residence however  I wanted to form an LLC and that means I can have no mix of personal life where the business is to be conducted. Meaning I can’t have any items I use for my own personal use such as a washer or dryer for example in the area business will be conducted. Business and personal have to be split. I could have done a sole proprietor but I don’t want that I want an LLC. No mater either way cause I am not allowed too. Cost for lawyer here is 6,000.00 to do the paperwork.


I think what your lawyer is talking about is if you write off your shop space on your taxes, then it has to be 100% used for business.  If he was saying your workspace from a liability perspective needs to be 100% separate, then that is new to me.   I chose not to write off my home office for my business since it is a guest room and not worth the effort to segregate.  Another important aspect of an LLC, keep your business finances completely separate from your personal, otherwise a good lawyer will be able to pierce the liability protection and the LLC becomes useless.  It also helps you keep all your expenses in one place so filing taxes each year is easier.

$6,000 to file an LLC is insanely high.   It is simple enough to do it yourself, but if you wanted someone to do it for you, find an accountant, should only cost a couple hundred plus whatever the state filing fees are.  I did two LLCs here in CT, I think it took more time to find the right paperwork then it did to actually fill them out.


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 13, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> I completely understand, it was the advise from my lawyer to file and LLC, I then contacted a company for insurance aswell. It was awhile ago but I remember insurance was pretty high.


Find a good insurance agent that will take the time to explain what goes into the pricing.  Doing certain activities can drastically increase your insurance premium.  I chatted about this with my agent when I opened my consulting company many years ago and don’t recall the details, but she did mention they are very picky about people designing or making parts for things like cars, planes, etc where their liability would be higher, which means your premiums will be higher.  Since you are planning on gunsmithing, that might put you in a higher liability bracket, or limit your choice of carriers to the higher priced ones.  When you are just starting out, you might want to limit what you will work on to lower liability parts until you have more cash flow to afford the higher priced insurance that covers more things.  Since insurance laws vary by state, this could just be because of the laws here in CT, but it could be similar in your state.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 13, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I think what your lawyer is talking about is if you write off your shop space on your taxes, then it has to be 100% used for business.  If he was saying your workspace from a liability perspective needs to be 100% separate, then that is new to me.   I chose not to write off my home office for my business since it is a guest room and not worth the effort to segregate.  Another important aspect of an LLC, keep your business finances completely separate from your personal, otherwise a good lawyer will be able to pierce the liability protection and the LLC becomes useless.  It also helps you keep all your expenses in one place so filing taxes each year is easier.
> 
> $6,000 to file an LLC is insanely high.   It is simple enough to do it yourself, but if you wanted someone to do it for you, find an accountant, should only cost a couple hundred plus whatever the state filing fees are.  I did two LLCs here in CT, I think it took more time to find the right paperwork then it did to actually fill them out.


That’s what he was going to charge me. I was under the impression that you needed a lawyer to form an LLC. He indeed told me that I could not have any personal possessions or nothing that wasn’t directly involved with the LLC. 6,000.00 was to do all the paperwork and write a business operating agreement. I thought that was really high but only he and a guy in Harrisburg does LLC for gunsmithing.


----------



## mmcmdl (Apr 13, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> What is Xometry?


I think we went over this before . Basically , you do the work and don't get paid . Check out all the complaints about them on the net . I warned Brent to stay the heck away from them not too long ago .


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 13, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> I think we went over this before . Basically , you do the work and don't get paid . Check out all the complaints about them on the net . I warned Brent to stay the heck away from them not too long ago .


Yea I think I’ll stay away from that, I don’t have the kind of equipment for the things they want made. I like doing manual stuff.


----------



## Aaron_W (Apr 13, 2022)

I've had a similar idea, but mostly interested in figuring out something I can make, that people would buy.

Advantage to finding a widget you can produce, is it puts the work on your schedule. Crank them out at your pace, then sell through eBay, Etsy, farmers market, local shops etc. When supply gets low crank out some more. No getting over your head finding you lack the tooling or skill to complete it, no time conflicts with your personal life, like sick kids, vacation etc.

I'm semi retired with an 8 year old, my wife went full time at work when I retired so I'm also doing the Mr Mom thing. 
I was always at work with my older son, so I'm enjoying being able to take the younger to school, go along on his field trips etc, but it is a change. 

I am still able to work at times so have been able to ween myself away from work which helped.


----------



## Ischgl99 (Apr 13, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> That’s what he was going to charge me. I was under the impression that you needed a lawyer to form an LLC. He indeed told me that I could not have any personal possessions or nothing that wasn’t directly involved with the LLC. 6,000.00 was to do all the paperwork and write a business operating agreement. I thought that was really high but only he and a guy in Harrisburg does LLC for gunsmithing.


You can do an LLC on your own, but a lawyer can help write up the operating agreement so that you are properly protected.  An accountant is good to have as well to make sure you are set up correctly financially for taxes.  In most businesses, the operating agreement is easy, but for gunsmithing it appears to be more involved since you are an FFL and need to take that into account.  Even so, it looks to me that they are fleecing you at that price, I can’t imagine the operating agreements are that different that most of it is not cut and paste.

The only exclusivity requirement for an LLC I have heard about is for tax purposes, you can’t write your workspace off on your taxes if it is not used exclusively for your business.  I’m wondering if your lawyer thinks by having personal use in the same area as your business increases the risk of the limited liability being pierced?  I haven’t heard of that happening, but I’m not a lawyer either.  The cases of piercing the limited liability is generally when personal finances are used, or you don’t do business as your business name.  That is something to clarify with your lawyer and do what they say and not some random guy on the internet.


----------



## mickri (Apr 13, 2022)

You might want to consider asking questions about starting a gunsmithing shop on the accurate reloading gunsmithing forum.  http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/9411043  The folks on there are pretty friendly and most of them are actual working gunsmiths.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 13, 2022)

mickri said:


> You might want to consider asking questions about starting a gunsmithing shop on the accurate reloading gunsmithing forum.  http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/9411043  The folks on there are pretty friendly and most of them are actual working gunsmiths.


I have, lol most say to do something else.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 13, 2022)

I would rather do machining just because all of the paperwork and regulations involved in gunsmithing. I have a buddy that’s a gunsmith, now he is swamped with work but he complains all the time about all the paperwork and he says they change regulations constantly. He says he is tired of keep up with everything.


----------



## mmcmdl (Apr 13, 2022)

Make custom bird houses ........................................everyone has birds !


----------



## Aaron_W (Apr 13, 2022)

Brad125 said:


> I would rather do machining just because all of the paperwork and regulations involved in gunsmithing. I have a buddy that’s a gunsmith, now he is swamped with work but he complains all the time about all the paperwork and he says they change regulations constantly. He says he is tired of keep up with everything.



There are lots of unregulated firearms gizmos, just a matter of finding something interesting that you can make at an appealing price for an appealing profit. If I knew what that was I'd already be doing it, but a few possibilities could be empty chamber flags, neat sling swivels, sight mounts, dummy cartridges, muzzle protectors etc. People like custom gee gaws.


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 13, 2022)

That’s just it, seems like everything that can be made already was lol.


----------



## mmcmdl (Apr 13, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Make custom bird houses ........................................everyone has birds !


You and everyone laughs at this , but the women don't mind throwing out $80 on a friggin bird house or other crafts . I have 2 houses and 45 acres full of them .


----------



## Brad125 (Apr 13, 2022)

With all due respect I am not making bird houses lol


----------



## NCjeeper (Apr 13, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> I think we went over this before . Basically , you do the work and don't get paid . Check out all the complaints about them on the net . I warned Brent to stay the heck away from them not too long ago .


Yep Xometry is a race to the bottom with them.


----------



## KyleG (Apr 15, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> I think we went over this before . Basically , you do the work and don't get paid .



Well that’s a shame to hear.


----------



## Brento (Apr 15, 2022)

I have heard some people do very well with them. But i think you have to be dedicated on doing work just from them or taking their work as first priority.


----------

