# What to do when the lights go out?



## Shotgun (Apr 14, 2022)

There was a series on TV a while back.  "Revolution", or something like that, was the name.  Premise was that the military releases nanobots that reproduce and short circuit everything electrical in the world.  It was an interesting premise, but as usual, Hollywood flubs it.  Society breaks down.  That's a given, but they have everyone go back to horse and carriage, bows and arrows.  They just completely skipped over the technological advancements between the medieval ages and Tesla inventing the AC motor.  No one even had a bicycle.
I mean, diesels run just fine without electricity, and I've even seen compressed air starters for them.  A windmill or waterwheel can run an air compressor that could power the air tools in many a work shop.  And then the steam engine never has gone completely away.
For those that have seen the series, or just think the premise is interesting:  If electricity were irrevocably turned off tomorrow, what technologies do you think would come back or advance to keep society moving?


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## pontiac428 (Apr 14, 2022)

The first thing anyone is likely to build is a power meter for this water wheel, because humankind is not motivated by good will and selflessness...


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## rabler (Apr 14, 2022)

Chemistry still works.  Oxyacetylene.


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## Aaron_W (Apr 14, 2022)

I am a fan of post-apocalypse fiction but this is a frequent annoyance of mine. Technology tends to be scrounging and stone age manufacturing. It wouldn't happen instantly but realistically it wouldn't take long for the technology base to rise to the 19th century, percussion black powder firearms, water and steam power, gas light etc.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 14, 2022)

I tried a search for the series but came up empty.  I would be interested in the story line.  

Like any pathogen, isolation will result in zero probability of infection.  Battery operated devices or systems living off the grid would likely survive.  Likewise, motor vehicles.


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## silence dogood (Apr 14, 2022)

Read up on the Amish. For centuries, they have been doing just fine without electricity. However, recently many of them do use electricity, but on a limited basis and they are not on the power grid,


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## matthewsx (Apr 14, 2022)

Hamster powered lathes????


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## savarin (Apr 14, 2022)

My grandads house had no electricity when I was young it was all gas lights in every room and a gas cooker.
Coal fires in every room as well.
He went to work on a bicycle.
He first got electricity to power a radio, 1x90V dry cell bank and a 1.5V lead acid battery called an accumulator that was exchanged weekly by a man on a motorcycle combination.
We thought we were royalty back then.


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## vtcnc (Apr 15, 2022)

I stopped watching shows like this for a similar reason. Prepare for crazy talk.

I have slightly different take on this theme of - "what would life be like".

The premise is this: the laws of physics are - to the best or our knowledge - constant. Regarding our intelligence, the question I have is whether it evolved or was latent and always a constant as it appears to be today. This implies our potential was not met until the conditions were right. Let's assume that it has been constant. Meaning we have always observed, guessed about and acted on material things as a means of survival.

Homo genus has been around for 2M years. Narrowing our view to homo sapiens - we have existed by most accounts - for roughly 200,000 years. Our current technology was born of our intelligence for about 1/1,000th of our existence.

The most recent ice age occurred in the last 1/16th period of homo sapiens existence and by all accounts, much of what was thought to be civilization was lost over this vast period. We have a difficult time finding those lost civilizations - let alone agreeing what their existence meant.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me to wonder that if the potential human intelligence is constant then why couldn't there have been advanced civilizations on earth say, 150,000 years ago? The conditions appeared to be the same as they are now, if not, at least they were in a narrower region of the world. I'm making a big assumption about the availability of metals and minerals used in technology today, but for the sake of discussion it seems absolutely possible that iron, for example, was available in a similar manner to how it is today. If you consider today being the past couple hundred to a couple thousand years. And the means to mine it, smelt it and utilize it were similar to what we have today - from the perspective of human intelligence.


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## 7milesup (Apr 15, 2022)

Hey Bryan:  Have you listened to, or read, Bill Bryson's book *A Short History of Nearly Everything?*   I found it to be fascinating.  I listened to it on Audible while spending time in my truck.  Actually, I listened to it twice.


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## vtcnc (Apr 15, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Hey Bryan: Have you listened to, or read, Bill Bryson's book *A Short History of Nearly Everything?* I found it to be fascinating. I listened to it on Audible while spending time in my truck. Actually, I listened to it twice.



No but I’ll put it on the list. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vocatexas (Apr 15, 2022)

I thought Revolution was one of the best series out of Hollywood in a while. Yes, it had flaws, but over-all it was pretty well done and it had some really good actors in it. It's a shame it got cancelled. They had originally planned for one more season, so the ending got compressed and it was a bit of a let-down.

As for ancient civilizations, I think there is little doubt that there have been some fairly advanced societies around that we now know nothing about. I'm not really buying into everything I see on the internet (if it's on the internet, it has to be true) but I have seen some compelling evidence of what certainly looks like lathe work done centuries before the lathe was supposed to be invented. And then there is the Antikathera mechanism. Gear making of that sophistication wasn't supposed to be possible until about five hundred years ago, but there is the proof that at least one person was doing it two thousand years ago.  

It's a fun subject. There's more and more evidence coming to light all the time.


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## westerner (Apr 15, 2022)

Google 'Glugg' and the "Fate of Empires". Humans cannot be otherwise.


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## Bi11Hudson (Apr 16, 2022)

My response drifts quickly into the political arena. So I just pose one question. Never mind the 21st century, in the 20th century what truely unique inventions came about? I offer two ideas, what are the others? My two being splitting the atom, atomic energy. And 'PN' junctions, diodes, the root of transistors. So far, in the 21st, there is so far nothing truely new. Lots of improvements, but nothing new.

Everything else existed in the 19th century or earlier. Crude, but did exist. Computers actually go farther back than Babbage's machine. A crude iteration is in the Chinese abacus. And Babbage's Engine esisted in the 18th century, if I'm not mistaken. Likewise, hot air engines, Stirling's Engine, existed before steam engines were used for propulsion. 1816 I think. The telephone, electricity, automobiles, chemical medicine, most things we take for granted today actually came from the 19th century. 

What besides my two basic ideas came about in the 20th century. And if I'm wrong about atomic power or PN junctions, please correct me there.

.


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## Shotgun (Apr 16, 2022)

RJSakowski said:


> I tried a search for the series but came up empty.  I would be interested in the story line.
> 
> Like any pathogen, isolation will result in zero probability of infection.  Battery operated devices or systems living off the grid would likely survive.  Likewise, motor vehicles.











						Revolution (TV series) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Shotgun (Apr 16, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> It seems perfectly reasonable to me to wonder that if the potential human intelligence is constant then why couldn't there have been advanced civilizations on earth say, 150,000 years ago? The conditions appeared to be the same as they are now, if not, at least they were in a narrower region of the world.



I think the initial slow progression is the bootstrapping.

Watched some some videos on how gunpowder was made.  The modern version is get some stump remover and mix it with some charcoal that you build a contraption to make.  The "low tech" focus is on making the charcoal.  The hard part is the potassium nitrate, and how to make that is generally just skipped completely over.  Found a video about medieval times, and it discussed how you had to keep a dung heap wet with urine for a while, then rinse the dung in water, then boil the water till the potassium nitrate crystalized out of solution.  

How many years did that process take to discover and then ramp up to a production scale, without any understanding of chemistry, while everyone was busy trying to pack away enough food for the winter? 

I think human intelligence has been constant, if not greater in the past.  The problem I have with the post-apocalypse stories is that they ignore that all the knowledge gained from several thousand years of bootstrapping.


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## addertooth (Apr 16, 2022)

Perhaps those early civilizations fell into a groove of "eco-friendliness", and started making much of their tools out of organic or bio-degradable materials.  Keep in mind, even iron-based swords from long ago are hard to find in usable conditions.  Rust and corrosion take their toll over long periods, leaving us with only ancient stone buildings as the only real signs a city once existed in an area. Plastics often break down to dust long before other items.  You can't help but wonder how many of our current artifacts will be intact 5000 years from now.  You could question whether any significant signs of our civilization would be discoverable in 10,000 years, if a plague took out most of humanity.  

You can add to all of this the factor that early humanity was far more interested in spreading out of Africa, and living a hard-scrub life while they were subsisting in new lands and environments.   Environmental pressures (such as the cold, or predators) force mankind to develop new technologies and strategies to simply survive. When you are struggling to survive, things like transistor radios take a serious back-burner. 

Technology is often driven by the old saw "necessity is the mother of all invention".  Inventions due to simply curiosity and wants appeared later, after all the basic needs were covered. Most of these later results occurred because of  patronage from wealthy land-owners and rulers. They required a wealthy patron-class to be founded to begin.  The "scientist" class appeared as a result.


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## Shotgun (Apr 16, 2022)

Bi11Hudson said:


> My response drifts quickly into the political arena. So I just pose one question. Never mind the 21st century, in the 20th century what truely unique inventions came about? I offer two ideas, what are the others? My two being splitting the atom, atomic energy. And 'PN' junctions, diodes, the root of transistors. So far, in the 21st, there is so far nothing truely new. Lots of improvements, but nothing new.



The 21st is just getting started, and it generally takes a long time to understand the ramifications of an invention.  But, I would submit to you "packet routing"

In the past a spy in the field wanted to send a message back to the general.  The messenger could be intercepted. Later the telegram/telephone line could be cut.  Later still, the radio signal could be interfered with.

Who in the past would have thought to break the message into small parts and them off in different directions for them to be passed between anonymous stations that would choose a different station in the bucket brigade if one goes down?


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## Shotgun (Apr 16, 2022)

addertooth said:


> Perhaps those early civilizations fell into a groove of "eco-friendliness", and started making much of their tools out of organic or bio-degradable materials.  Keep in mind, even iron-based swords from long ago are hard to find in usable conditions.  Rust and corrosion take their toll over long periods, leaving us with only ancient stone buildings as the only real signs a city once existed in an area.



A large, advanced civilization would actually be identified by what is NOT present.  The next rise of humans will have to make due without oil bubbling up from the ground, easily accessible coal, rocks on the ground so rich in metal ore that the metal will smelt out when they're used to build a pottery kiln.


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## addertooth (Apr 16, 2022)

Shotgun said:


> The 21st is just getting started, and it generally takes a long time to understand the ramifications of an invention.  But, I would submit to you "packet routing"
> 
> In the past a spy in the field wanted to send a message back to the general.  The messenger could be intercepted. Later the telegram/telephone line could be cut.  Later still, the radio signal could be interfered with.
> 
> Who in the past would have thought to break the message into small parts and them off in different directions for them to be passed between anonymous stations that would choose a different station in the bucket brigade if one goes down?


Most of the packet technology emerged from the "amateur radio" (ham radio) development of "packet radio", which preceded physical networks by over a decade.  ARPA (DARPA) recycled much of the ideas and technology when the first started to fund networks which most resemble what we see today.  Satellite packet radio, preceded satellite internet connections by decades as well.

We owe those ham radio operators a debt for the heavy lifting they did.  The early BBS systems, which used dial-up 300 baud modems developed a lot of the technology as well.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 16, 2022)

westerner said:


> Google 'Glugg' and the "Fate of Empires". Humans cannot be otherwise.


Glubb's summary.  Full text attached.

As numerous points of interest have arisen in the course of this essay, I close with a brief summary, to refresh the reader’s mind. (a) We do not learn from history because our studies are brief and prejudiced. (b) In a surprising manner, 250 years emerges as the average length of national greatness. (c) This average has not varied for 3,000 years. Does it represent ten generations? (d) The stages of the rise and fall of great nations seem to be: The Age of Pioneers (outburst) The Age of Conquests The Age of Commerce The Age of Affluence The Age of Intellect The Age of Decadence. (e) Decadence is marked by: Defensiveness Pessimism Materialism Frivolity An influx of foreigners The Welfare State A weakening of religion. (f) Decadence is due to: Too long a period of wealth and power Selfishness Love of money The loss of a sense of duty. (g) The life histories of great states are amazingly similar, and are due to internal factors. (h) Their falls are diverse, because they are largely the result of external causes. (i) History should be taught as the history of the human race, though of course with emphasis on the history of the student’s own country.


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## woodchucker (Apr 16, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Glubb's summary.  Full text attached.
> 
> As numerous points of interest have arisen in the course of this essay, I close with a brief summary, to refresh the reader’s mind. (a) We do not learn from history because our studies are brief and prejudiced. (b) In a surprising manner, 250 years emerges as the average length of national greatness. (c) This average has not varied for 3,000 years. Does it represent ten generations? (d) The stages of the rise and fall of great nations seem to be: The Age of Pioneers (outburst) The Age of Conquests The Age of Commerce The Age of Affluence The Age of Intellect The Age of Decadence. (e) Decadence is marked by: Defensiveness Pessimism Materialism Frivolity An influx of foreigners The Welfare State A weakening of religion. (f) Decadence is due to: Too long a period of wealth and power Selfishness Love of money The loss of a sense of duty. (g) The life histories of great states are amazingly similar, and are due to internal factors. (h) Their falls are diverse, because they are largely the result of external causes. (i) History should be taught as the history of the human race, though of course with emphasis on the history of the student’s own country.


I don't know where you get your facts from but that's really not factual.
The Roman empire lasted over 500 years.
The Ottoman empire 600 years.
The Portugese empire almost 600 years.
The Khmer over 600 years.
There are more...


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## pontiac428 (Apr 16, 2022)

I dunno, ask Glubb, those are his words.  Remember, he was a British imperial general and is likely to have some bias to his perspective, like "the influx of foreigners".


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## woodchucker (Apr 16, 2022)

While I disliked being pushed out of my job by foreigners (not even green carded) ; I have been many times by H1B's...
I will say that this is what makes this country great. Rather than one perspective, we get many. And it's the many different ideas and ways things are thought of  that drive innovation.  There are many of you that are nationalistic, I'm not going to argue why.. I will say that I believe in doing onto others as you would have them do unto you. In that respect I *try *to treat everyone with respect. Sometimes I lose my way. But I am quick to take down someone who returns the gesture with disrepect.  Including our own country man.

In work, there is a 10% rule... only 10% really carry the company, or know what they are doing... the rest are just a drag on the company, but they get some work done.. Very little compared to others.


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## Provincial (Apr 16, 2022)

When looking at the contributions to the advancement of science and general knowledge, one must recognize that in Western Culture, major advancements were made by a "leisure class" of elites that devoted their energies to personally investigating physical sciences, mathematics, astronomy, and the like.  During the Dark Ages this "leisure" class mostly comprised of clericals, since everyone else was fully engaged in survival.  Before and after the Dark Ages, it was the wealthy class that made these contributions, or sponsored promising individuals.

This was prevalent throughout recorded history, but in more recent times (perhaps beginning in the later 18th Century) it was eclipsed by research by professionals (often financed by the leisure class, and later by for-profit companies) which accelerated the advance of knowledge.  There was a period, beginning in the 19th Century, where prosperity increased enough that working people (like the Wright brothers) could make serious contributions on their own, but once the "low-hanging fruit" had been picked, it became necessary to fund research with for-profit funds, or in the case of military uses, government funds because physical research required increasingly complex and expensive equipment.  Such research became very time-consuming, and often required years or decades to produce usable results.

One should not overlook the contributions of educational institutions, but realizing that their research is generally funded by philanthropy, for-profit business, and government.  Often, these contributions have come in the form of theory, from which the other players develop usable, and useful products.

The Dark Ages give us somewhat of a widow into the dynamic of the setbacks to advancement and use of knowledge.  One question it raises is what part of society will take up the position provided by the Church during the Dark Ages?


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## woodchucker (Apr 16, 2022)

I am not sure the leisure class can be credited with that much. I'm not sure, but I think 
many inventions were by common men who had visions of improving things because they disliked doing the work manually and saw a way of making it faster (population growth required it), less expensive, and more consistent. 
The cotton gin, the bicycle, tractors for farming, the knitting gins...  I don't think of these as the wealthy that developed them, I think of them as men who became wealthy for advancing things.


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## higgite (Apr 16, 2022)

Shotgun said:


> If electricity were irrevocably turned off tomorrow, what technologies do you think would come back or advance to keep society moving?


Hallelujah! The natural gas powered TV that I've been developing for years would finally have a market! Drinks are on me!

Tom


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## pontiac428 (Apr 16, 2022)

If that happens to be powered by the type of natural gas that we generate while sitting in the recliner, how do you plan to connect the line? Good idea, BTW.


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## woodchucker (Apr 16, 2022)

higgite said:


> Hallelujah! The natural gas powered TV that I've been developing for years would finally have a market! Drinks are on me!
> 
> Tom


Is that natural gas methane from someone's rear end?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## vtcnc (Apr 17, 2022)

higgite said:


> Hallelujah! The natural gas powered TV that I've been developing for years would finally have a market! Drinks are on me!
> 
> Tom





pontiac428 said:


> If that happens to be powered by the type of natural gas that we generate while sitting in the recliner, how do you plan to connect the line? Good idea, BTW.





woodchucker said:


> Is that natural gas methane from someone's rear end?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


You see? Who said collaboration and innovation is dead in the USA?! 

Sofa Powered Television. Free can of Febreeze for your cushions with every purchase!


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## vtcnc (Apr 17, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Glubb's summary.  Full text attached.
> 
> As numerous points of interest have arisen in the course of this essay, I close with a brief summary, to refresh the reader’s mind. (a) We do not learn from history because our studies are brief and prejudiced. (b) In a surprising manner, 250 years emerges as the average length of national greatness. (c) This average has not varied for 3,000 years. Does it represent ten generations? (d) The stages of the rise and fall of great nations seem to be: The Age of Pioneers (outburst) The Age of Conquests The Age of Commerce The Age of Affluence The Age of Intellect The Age of Decadence. (e) Decadence is marked by: Defensiveness Pessimism Materialism Frivolity An influx of foreigners The Welfare State A weakening of religion. (f) Decadence is due to: Too long a period of wealth and power Selfishness Love of money The loss of a sense of duty. (g) The life histories of great states are amazingly similar, and are due to internal factors. (h) Their falls are diverse, because they are largely the result of external causes. (i) History should be taught as the history of the human race, though of course with emphasis on the history of the student’s own country.


Thanks for sharing. Interesting read.


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## FOMOGO (Apr 17, 2022)

If the lights go out, I'm going back to bed. Mike


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## addertooth (Apr 17, 2022)

You would take those useless electric wind turbines, and build a shop next to it.  You could use the mechanical force to drive a central shaft (like the old time steam powered shops).  You would then have a full shop powered by the mechanical force.  Might as well add a grain mill (so you get the multi-ton grind stone as a flywheel.  Once you are grinding grain, the next logical step would (of course) be a brewery as well.  
 You would have to replace the electronic blade brakes with a flyball regulator, and a blade lock for when the winds get too strong.

It would be the same story for small dams.  It would use a sluice gate regulator.


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## Provincial (Apr 17, 2022)

I was always partial to putting a automobile alternator on a float powered by a paddle wheel.  Self-regulating, based on the velocity of the flow, and not sensitive to volume of flow.


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## higgite (Apr 17, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> You see? Who said collaboration and innovation is dead in the USA?!
> 
> Sofa Powered Television. Free can of Febreeze for your cushions with every purchase!


Well, THAT kind of natural gas wasn’t my original intent, but it does show promise. Especially for wilderness applications.

And just think of the peripheral marketing possibilities. Cow fart collectors. Bean enriched livestock fodder. 

Xtragas Brand Baked Beans. Cabbage snack chips. Gives the term “TV dinners” a whole new meaning.

Tom


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## zondar (Apr 17, 2022)

I enjoy a good post-apocalyptic story!

But so many seem to immediately devolve into guns, guns and more guns, with worn-out plots centered on bloviating ego-maniacal clan-lords, etc. If it's just fantasy-fodder for would-be preppers and supremacists wishing they can finally have their orgy of violence against others, then I'm out.

An interesting question is which "post-apocalyptic" stories offer a different and more original take?

"Children of Men" was a somewhat recent movie that I thought was amazing. Still plenty of guns, but not in the Mad-Max sense. An intelligent, gripping and touching story, with great acting and cinematography.


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## higgite (Apr 17, 2022)

zondar said:


> I enjoy a good post-apocalyptic story!
> 
> But so many seem to immediately devolve into guns, guns and more guns, with worn-out plots centered on bloviating ego-maniacal clan-lords, etc. If it's just fantasy-fodder for would-be preppers and supremacists wishing they can finally have their orgy of violence against others, then I'm out.


Guns. Great post-apocalyptic survival tools. And, they don’t require electricity to operate. Win/win! <grunt, grunt>

Tom


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## zondar (Apr 17, 2022)

Yes, if the world comes to an end, I'll be out there with my heirloom Cooper 22 hunting squirrels for dinner like the rest of new-stone-age humanity. I doubt the zombies will be impressed by it, though.

In Children of Men, set in England, no-one had guns except for the highly oppressive, militarized government. But if you see it, watch out for the Pink Floyd pig balloon casually in view while at the power station. Cute Easter egg.


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## starr256 (Apr 18, 2022)

More relevant are EMP weapons. They fry semiconductors. They exist today by the major powers in many different varieties. They can be of a tactical nature, taking out a a specific area and they can be of a strategic nature, nullifying satellites. 
One thing about all dystopia movies is that they all start some years after the event. I would like to see more of how we could progress to such an event and how humanity deals with the events. We need to watch "Dr. Strangelove" again.


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## Shotgun (Apr 18, 2022)

zondar said:


> I enjoy a good post-apocalyptic story!
> 
> But so many seem to immediately devolve into guns, guns and more guns, with worn-out plots centered on bloviating ego-maniacal clan-lords, etc. If it's just fantasy-fodder for would-be preppers and supremacists wishing they can finally have their orgy of violence against others, then I'm out.
> 
> ...


I thought Revolution was a different, interesting take. . . until they blew it with guns, guns, guns.  It actually started off interesting, in that guns were limited, but quickly moved to everyone having machine guns, with the cameraman apparently supplying lots of ammunition for reloads.  The story did move from the Philadelphia region to Atlanta where there seemed to be some industry. . .steam engines and such. . . but they didn't dwell on that long.  You could almost see the battles between the writers as they were trying to move the story in different directions.


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## Doug Gray (Apr 18, 2022)

Based on the title of the thread my first thought was to make a baby boom


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