# Basic question



## Meir (Feb 27, 2019)

Hello gentlemen. 
I apologize in advance for the very basic question, and the fact that it is not directly related to machining. 
I’m not sure we’re to ask, so I was hoping one of you will be able to help. 
I’m in a process of building a welding table, and part of the design, the top plates (1/2” tick) will have 5/8” holes drilled in them, 2” apart. 




The plates will be connected to the table frame using custom made standoffs. 
In order to do the job, I ordered a magnetic drill with 5/8” annular cutter to cut the holes. ( 4 plats, 70 holes per plate)
The bolts that will connect the plates to the standoffs (not showing in the draw) are 3/8” flat head socket cap. 
So I ordered this drill bit, to complete the drilling and countersink in one process.  



Drill part 3/8”, countersink 3/4” 
The paroblems are:

The drill bit shank is tapered. 5/8” on the large part, 19/32 on the small.
The magnetic drill I ordered comes with a 3/4” Weldon shank, or 1/2”  traditional drill chuck.
So the way I see it I have 2 options (and questions). 

Can the drill bit  e machined to fit the 1/2” chuck?  Not sure if it can be done as I have no knowledge in machining,  and what material the tool is made of ( I guess HSS?).
I can order a 5/8” drill chuck to fit the mag drill, but the question is will it hold the tapered shank of the bit?
I will also appreciate if someone can educate me on the purpose of the taper.   Is this bit intended to be mounted in a collet of some sort?
Thanks in advance. 
Meir.


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## Dabbler (Feb 27, 2019)

Your best bet is to return the countersink and get one with a straight shank.  I can't even guess what taper that is.  You can order a countersink with a 3/4" shaft from normal tool and die suppliers.  You might have to grind your own flat, but thaw will be easy.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 27, 2019)

You could grind the taper straight if you had a grinder . Looks to me it would mount in an mt2 taper shank .


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## mmcmdl (Feb 27, 2019)

You could also attach those plates with a single piece of all thread running thru them and secure them with jam nuts . Tapping a few 3/8 holes would be quite easy .


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## markba633csi (Feb 28, 2019)

Why does your design require so many holes?  Secondly, what material are these plates to be made of? 
mark


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## Firstgear (Feb 28, 2019)

I’m sure you already thought of this option, but if you hadn’t I will suggest...fabrication businesses have laser cutting available that can get you what you want quickly.  I have a good friend who owns a large shop where they can cut up to 2” on their laser cutter.....even those holes you want put in,  just an option as that is a lot of holes to drill by hand.


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## bhigdog (Feb 28, 2019)

To answer your questions: 

In all probability the bit shank is hardened and the only way to make it non tapered would be to grind it.
No, a drill chuck will not hold your tapered shank bit. .................Bob


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Feb 28, 2019)

Just curious why you would need so many holes in all 4 plates to begin with? I mean I get having the holes so close on part of the table to hold the smaller projects but I would think that you could do progressively less holes per plate, (i.e plate 2-holes 4" apart, plate 3- 8" apart etc) maybe?


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## Firstgear (Feb 28, 2019)

Or just add holes as you need them....that’s what I would probably do, that way I am not spending time on holes I may never need....just a thought...


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## C-Bag (Feb 28, 2019)

When I was working as a fabricator for my FIL our main welding table had an adjustable square sub frame made of 1x4 stock that most of our conveyer frames were made from with adjustable legs so you could level it. On top of this was two channels. You could move the channels in and out and bolt them down to whatever width needed for the project. The channels never warped like anything less than 1/2" thick plate will. And because it was channels you could easily use C vise grips or c clamps to clamp to and could be taken apart and moved easily. I have a 1/4 plate that I've had to put 3" wide channel under that I use for welding on and it's still warped. Everything I ever welded up on that old adjustable table came out perfect. All these years later I get the genius.


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## MarkM (Feb 28, 2019)

A machine shop with a lathe and surface grinder could easily press on a internal tapered sleeve with a 3/4 o.d. And grind a flat for you.  Expect to pay 60-100$.


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## COMachinist (Feb 28, 2019)

Google FireBall tools welding table. You can buy the 12x12 inch cast iron plates to build a welding/assembley table. I mean if you need  that kind of table. It will be cheeper to buy them and build it with them. Cast iron is better with weld spater so you don’t have to grind on the table, which will keep it flat and level.
Just an idea.
CH


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## bhigdog (Feb 28, 2019)

Thinking about using your taper shank bit in a chuck. It would be simple enough to grind the shank using a hex collet block to grind straight flats on the shank. Easy peasy and it would hold better in a chuck..............Bob


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## Cadillac (Feb 28, 2019)

Think about the reach of your clamps. 2” spacing in a grid is awfully close. My F style clamps have a 4” reach so even 8” spacing would still allow clamping anywhere on table. 4 or 6” might be better for stability and keep from warping. Annular cutter might do better for you holes you won’t be cutting a full slug. Wouldn’t think you’d want a countersink or relief on holes. The clamp might not bind in hole and slip out.


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## stupoty (Feb 28, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Why does your design require so many holes?  Secondly, what material are these plates to be made of?
> mark



I've got a grid of M12 threaded holes on my welding table that I made, very handy for bolting stuff down with.  

Stu


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## Meir (Feb 28, 2019)

Guys. you are awesome!
i did not expect so many replies.
i will try to answer some of your comments.
the top plates are 1/2" thick hot rolled steel. the multiple 5/8" holes are to allow me to create jigs using various tools.
this is not my design, but based on existing products.
this is just one example:





my design is a bit different, as im using materials i have in hand, but the concept is the same.
the standoff with the 3/8" holes, are welded to the frame, and allow adjustment of the plates to create an even level surface.
i got the standoffs from fireball tools, and jason was the one recommending the LINK 65-L2-292 drill bit.
i guess he assumed i have a mill. 
this is the standoff. the lock nut enable the adjustment of the plate height.




the tool i need is LINK 55-L2-292. this is the only place i found it online.




__





						#10 HS Counter Drill D405 | DGI Supply
					






					www.dgisupply.com
				



price is great. the only problem they have a minimum of 10.
the tapered one that i have, i got from MSC for $31 plus shipping, but they don't have the 55-L2-292 with the straight shank in the online catalog.
i went to the LINK website, and apparently they have a distributor 10 minutes away from me (im in FL, Fort Lauderdale area).
i will pay them a visit tomorrow.


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## Meir (Feb 28, 2019)

bhigdog said:


> Thinking about using your taper shank bit in a chuck. It would be simple enough to grind the shank using a hex collet block to grind straight flats on the shank. Easy peasy and it would hold better in a chuck..............Bob



Thanks bob. but i have no machining equipment or skills. at the moment at least. 



Cadillac said:


> Think about the reach of your clamps. 2” spacing in a grid is awfully close. My F style clamps have a 4” reach so even 8” spacing would still allow clamping anywhere on table. 4 or 6” might be better for stability and keep from warping. Annular cutter might do better for you holes you won’t be cutting a full slug. Wouldn’t think you’d want a countersink or relief on holes. The clamp might not bind in hole and slip out.



the Holes in the attached drawing will be done using an 5/8" annular cutter. only the 3/8" holes for the standoffs, will have the countersink for the screw.



Firstgear said:


> I’m sure you already thought of this option, but if you hadn’t I will suggest...fabrication businesses have laser cutting available that can get you what you want quickly.  I have a good friend who owns a large shop where they can cut up to 2” on their laser cutter.....even those holes you want put in,  just an option as that is a lot of holes to drill by hand.



that was my first thought. i got quoted $750 for the 4 plates (sound reasonable price now  ), but i figure i can use that money to buy tools i can keep (yes. another tool junkie here).


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## Meir (Feb 28, 2019)

i just noticed that the link i found i still for the incorrect tool.
i think my best option is this one.



it has the correct measurements, and also a 1/2" shank.


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## Ecosta777 (Mar 1, 2019)

The reason its tapered is because its 'indexable' I have several smaller ones like that that fit into the end of a shank. The shanks are very long, so that way when you wreck a center drill you don't have to buy an expensive extended drill, you just buy the cheaper insert and you've got a brand new center drill. it may be worth while to look into getting the shank, its probably cheaper than a new center drill with a straight body, and you can just cut it down and use it in the drill chuck.


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## Meir (Mar 1, 2019)

Ecosta777 said:


> The reason its tapered is because its 'indexable' I have several smaller ones like that that fit into the end of a shank. The shanks are very long, so that way when you wreck a center drill you don't have to buy an expensive extended drill, you just buy the cheaper insert and you've got a brand new center drill. it may be worth while to look into getting the shank, its probably cheaper than a new center drill with a straight body, and you can just cut it down and use it in the drill chuck.



can you be kind and direct me to one that can fit my application?
thanks in advance.


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## markba633csi (Mar 1, 2019)

Meir:  What type of annular cutter are you planning to use?  You might need more than one to make that many holes in 1/2" steel
Mark


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## Meir (Mar 1, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Meir:  What type of annular cutter are you planning to use?  You might need more than one to make that many holes in 1/2" steel
> Mark


Hi Mark.
was thinking to go with that one, but will accept any recommendations.





						5/8" Cutter Diam x 1" Cutting Depth, Bright 98332190 - MSC
					

Discover Hougen Annular Cutters at MSC Industrial Supply. Over 1 million products that ship and deliver fast




					www.mscdirect.com


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## markba633csi (Mar 1, 2019)

That may not be quite the correct tool for the job, considering the material and number of holes- I think a conventional split-point drill might be more practical.  What type of drilling machine do you have available?
Mark


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## Meir (Mar 1, 2019)

I'm going to use a magnetic drill.
very similar process to what this guy is doing. (you can skip to 1:30)






in fact, i was reading reviews on amazon for the annular cutter he is using.



			https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-CC625-Diameter-Cyclone-Annular/dp/B00B7W558C/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2FWECEQLLZZJ0&keywords=5%2F8+annular+cutter&qid=1551461681&s=gateway&sprefix=5%2F8%22+anular%2Caps%2C165&sr=8-3
		


and one of the reviews said as follow :
"
I used the cutter I purchased to gang drill 1/2 plate (4x plates, so 2" at a time, and yes I got a 2" depth cutter). Cutter performed very well, no chips or even discoloration on any teeth even after drilling a total of 16" of steel. I did use cutting oil (and yes it's required if you're not familiar with machine tooling), nothing too specific, just the general purpose cutting oil I had on hand.

Note: If you gang drill as I did, you will have to remove the slugs from each layer as you go, the last bit of the cut always stays on the slug and that will not cut when it's spinning in the hole, this is not a fault of the cutter, there's really no way to prevent this with annular cutters.

I am quite pleased with these cutters and will be looking at more of these as I run into a need for them."

i kind of like the ganging idea . can save me a lot of time with aligning the cutter. after all, it cuts 1/2" at a time.

i have another work table in the backyard, with the same top plate. so i can experiment on it.
il pick up a conventional drill as well.


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## markba633csi (Mar 1, 2019)

Good to experiment and find what works best for you- as long as the steel is mild it should be ok,  a backup drill is a good idea too 
Be careful of the sharp chips


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## Meir (Mar 1, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Good to experiment and find what works best for you- as long as the steel is mild it should be ok,  a backup drill is a good idea too
> Be careful of the sharp chips



thanks Mark.


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## bhigdog (Mar 1, 2019)

Be advised the scale on hot rolled plate is hard and abrasive. You may want to remove the scale at each hole site, or overall, to extend the life of the cutter...............Bob


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## Meir (Mar 1, 2019)

bhigdog said:


> Be advised the scale on hot rolled plate is hard and abrasive. You may want to remove the scale at each hole site, or overall, to extend the life of the cutter...............Bob


thanks Bob. that's a valid point. i'll consider that.
at the moment i'm opting to leave it as is, as the scale is protecting the plate from rusting.
i will still need to coute the table  (especially the drilled holes), with some rust protection, but i would like to keep it to a minimum.


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## bhigdog (Mar 1, 2019)

With all respect it's a WELDING table. If used properly and with regularity it not only will, but should, get the crap beat out of it. It will get spatter, arc burns, water and flux spilled on it, have parts beat into shape on it, clamps stress it, beer bottles broken on it and the occasional disc grinder run over it. 
Putting a coat of almost anything will hinder the conductivity of the table. 
Putting lip stick on this pig is not only a waste of time it is counter productive...............Bob


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## Meir (Mar 1, 2019)

bhigdog said:


> With all respect it's a WELDING table. If used properly and with regularity it not only will, but should, get the crap beat out of it. It will get spatter, arc burns, water and flux spilled on it, have parts beat into shape on it, clamps stress it, beer bottles broken on it and the occasional disc grinder run over it.
> Putting a coat of almost anything will hinder the conductivity of the table.
> Putting lip stick on this pig is not only a waste of time it is counter productive...............Bob



Agree Bob.
i have a 2'x4' with 1/2" top, welding/fabrication/working table on the side of the house.
i don't put anything on it. just give it a wire brush with an angle grinder every now and then.
i do everything on it, except spilling my beer . too valuable.





the new table is going to be more "fancy" fixturing table, with adjustable height and as flat as possible surface.
it is going to be mostly used for Tig welding inside my home garage.
that is why i'm also opting to leave the scale on the surface, use a bit of Boeshield T-9 on the drilled holes.
if i decide to remove the scale from the surface, and coat it with the T-9  i can always give it a wipe of acetone before working on a project, and a light spry after.
it is not going to be used every day. in real life i make my mony seating behind a desk (no complaints though)

anyhow. i took my ass off the desk during lunch time, and went to see the local LINK distributor. super nice guy.
he just called me back. he can get me the LINK 3/8" drill with 3/4" countersink combination, 1/2" straight shank for $31, including Tax and shipping to his store.i'll pick it up next wednesday.

so it looks like i got my issue solved.
thanks for all your help and comments everyone.


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## Meir (Mar 1, 2019)

Just if someone is curious (probably should have included that in the first post), this is the design for my welding table.
i got the planes and the standoffs from Fireball Tools, and i'm going to use four 1/2" plates instead of 12.
also, instead of the hydraulic ram in the center, i'm going to use two electric linear actuators on the sides, to allow room for storage under the table.


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## bhigdog (Mar 1, 2019)

Roger that..............Bob


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## Dabbler (Mar 1, 2019)

On the annular cutter question.  I have cut more than 100 holes in 1/4" tubing, cutting right through the scale and the tubing'welds and my annular cutter is still quite sharp.  and it only cost 38$.  10X faster than a regular drill and no resharpening.  Yes if you remove the scale it will work far better and longer, but I was on a big rush job, so I'm prepared to replace it - if it ever gets dull.


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## MarkM (Mar 2, 2019)

Very curious as to what mag drill you went with and what kind of stroke you have as well as your opinion on the mag drill.


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## Dabbler (Mar 2, 2019)

so am I


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## Meir (Mar 4, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Very curious as to what mag drill you went with and what kind of stroke you have as well as your opinion on the mag drill.





Dabbler said:


> so am I



Hi guys.
i went with the cheapest one i could find, that had somewhat decent reviews. Evolution EVOMAG28






						Evolution Power Tools EVOMAG28 1-1/8" Magnetic Drill - - Amazon.com
					

Evolution Power Tools EVOMAG28 1-1/8" Magnetic Drill - - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com
				




7/16"- 1-1/8" Cutting Diameter, 2" depth and 6" stroke.

i was on the fence for a while, between this one to an American or German made (even used one), but just couldn't justify the price difference.
i really like the 6" stroke (less concern about cutting diameter and depth) for versatility with standard drill bits.
looks like a high quality mag drill with that kind of stroke, starts north of $1200.
for my hobby applications, i'm sure it will be just fine.

im supposed to receive it today, and the annular cutters and drilling bits only later this week, so i will share my impressions probably over the weekend.


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## Meir (Mar 4, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> On the annular cutter question.  I have cut more than 100 holes in 1/4" tubing, cutting right through the scale and the tubing'welds and my annular cutter is still quite sharp.  and it only cost 38$.  10X faster than a regular drill and no resharpening.  Yes if you remove the scale it will work far better and longer, but I was on a big rush job, so I'm prepared to replace it - if it ever gets dull.



what brand of annular cutter do you use?


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## coherent (Mar 4, 2019)

I have a table I bought from certi-flat that uses holes for various attachments . They also sell a number of accessories. I have a CNC plasma table and considered making my own, but decided to just buy one. I'm very happy with the quality etc, but it doesn't have a 1/2 thick top. Good luck with your setup.


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## Dabbler (Mar 4, 2019)

I use the 'best quality' my local supplier sells.  Next time I'm in there, I'll ask. Right now it is after business hours...


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## brino (Mar 4, 2019)

Meir said:


> Hi guys. i went with the cheapest one i could find, that had somewhat decent reviews. Evolution EVOMAG28



That looks like a nice machine at an amazing price.
Please do post back with some reviews!
-brino


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## Dabbler (Mar 5, 2019)

I'd like to second the request for a review!


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## Meir (Mar 5, 2019)

coherent said:


> I have a table I bought from certi-flat that uses holes for various attachments . They also sell a number of accessories. I have a CNC plasma table and considered making my own, but decided to just buy one. I'm very happy with the quality etc, but it doesn't have a 1/2 thick top. Good luck with your setup.





Dabbler said:


> I use the 'best quality' my local supplier sells.  Next time I'm in there, I'll ask. Right now it is after business hours...



Thanks you both.




brino said:


> That looks like a nice machine at an amazing price.
> Please do post back with some reviews!
> -brino





Dabbler said:


> I'd like to second the request for a review!



will do guys.


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## Dabbler (Mar 5, 2019)

So my cutters were supplied by Preimum Tool from Edmonton, Alberta.  Don't know if they make them, or resell them, but here's the web address:  www.premiumtool.com  I'm not affiliated with them - I just have had really good life from my cutters.

I DO use soluable cutting oil in a spray bottle to help prolong cutting life, especially when cutting through welds.  These cutters get HOT and really need the coolant/lube properties to cut fast and long.


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## brino (Mar 5, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> I DO use soluable cutting oil in a spray bottle to help prolong cutting life, especially when cutting through welds.



Hey Dabbler, I have two concerns about "soluble oil".....
1) Do you use it on machine tools? If so, any issues with rust/staining under vises or the ways?

2) I bought some specifically for my power hack saw but have never used it as the tests I ran showed that at the recommended diluation, it still froze. I do try to keep the shop above freezing, but have a hard time guaranteeing it during Jan. and Feb. I am afraid of leaving it my reservior due to potential expansion.

Any thoughts/advice?

okay maybe three issues with it.......
3) I have considered diluation with a water/automotive-antifreeze mix, but too many resource warn of exposure to ethylene-glycol.
Like this:


> "Based on a rather extensive database, it induces [skeletal variations and malformations] in rats and mice by all routes of exposure."[30]


 From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol#Toxicity

Thanks,
-brino


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## Dabbler (Mar 6, 2019)

THis is why I use spray bottles. you  mix up the minimum you need, and it can be stored in my house away from the cold.  I try to keep my garage at +3C all winter, but stuff near the walls can freeze on really cold days. (-35C days)...

On the staining issue, if you leave the surface wet it will still stain. Even with the non-rusting additives, it still oxydizes the cast iron, in my experience.  So I dry off with paper towels ad give a WD40 squirt to help with the staining.  So I use Varsol mixed with sulfated oil most of the time.  For these annular cutters they need cooling to cut well, so hence the solulable oil...


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