# Coffee In My Sugar: A Scissor Knurler / Lathe Question



## LooseNut (Feb 3, 2020)

I'm currently one of the lost souls endlessly searching for answers concerning my first lathe purchase. I've always believed in buying the best tool I can afford.... or buying the cheapest one. Neither approach has ever really let me down. That being said, I am on the fence about making a major purchase at the present.

Instead of tormenting myself over buying the best lathe I can afford, I've decided to buy a piece of quality tooling that I absolutely need for my intended use for said lathe:

THE EAGLE ROCK HEAVY DUTY SCISSOR TYPE KNURLING TOOL No. K1-44

My question for all those experienced in scissor knurling is: What is the smallest machine that will hack it (or should I say... turn it) with a good result? I ask knowing that the scissor type knurlers put the least amount of stress on the lathe itself. But how far does that stress free lemonade drinking lifestyle actually get me? 

I should mention that I plan to specifically knurl 6061 at max diameter of 37mm give or take. 

Can I buy something in the ballpark of the Grizzly G4000 and get the job done (deep sexy knurls) while I'm stacking chips for the hot rod I really want? 

(I do know the spindle bore size of the above mentioned lathe.) 

Thanks in advance!


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## tq60 (Feb 3, 2020)

That type of tool does not rely on pressure from tool post as it is like a pair of pliers.

The lathe just holds and turns the work while the tool squeezes the work.

We have somewhere a hand held version that works anywhere.

Lathe model not relevant as long as work fits between the wheels.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## darkzero (Feb 3, 2020)

I have a 12x lathe, I have that same exact scissor knurler & knurl mostly titanium with it. One thing to consider is that the smallest shank the K1-44 comes in is 5/8". Need to check if you can get 5/8" shank tools on spindle center line with that lathe.

With a scissor knurler being off center line a tad wouldn't matter much but if it is way off I'm not sure what happens, I have never tried personally. If that lathe can use an AXA tool post, oversized AXA holders will accept 5/8" shanks but still have to check if there is enough clearance to reach centerline. Another option is to mill down the shank on the scissor knurler. I'd hate to do that on such an expensive tool though if purchased new.

The K1-44 is their heavy duty knurler, don’t need that for knurling aluminum. The K1-201 is their standard model. I love the K1-44 but it's a pretty expensive tool if purchased new, luckily I got mine second hand.


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## mikey (Feb 3, 2020)

Choosing a lathe based on a knurling tool is a novel approach, I must say. Might I ask what else you might want to do with it because that is the real criteria that determines the size of the lathe you buy. Will knurls with his 12" lathe and I use the same knurler on my 11" lathe. Different guys, different lathes, same knurler, see?


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## LooseNut (Feb 4, 2020)

darkzero said:


> I have a 12x lathe, I have that same exact scissor knurler & knurl mostly titanium with it. One thing to consider is that the smallest shank the K1-44 comes in is 5/8". Need to check if you can get 5/8" shank tools on spindle center line with that lathe.
> 
> With a scissor knurler being off center line a tad wouldn't matter much but if it is way off I'm not sure what happens, I have never tried personally. If that lathe can use an AXA tool post, oversized AXA holders will accept 5/8" shanks but still have to check if there is enough clearance to reach centerline. Another option is to mill down the shank on the scissor knurler. I'd hate to do that on such an expensive tool though if purchased new.
> 
> The K1-44 is their heavy duty knurler, don’t need that for knurling aluminum. The K1-201 is their standard model. I love the K1-44 but it's a pretty expensive tool if purchased new, luckily I got mine second hand.



I'll do some more research into fitting a 5/8 tool / AXA Post on the G4000... did a quick search and didn't find anything definitive. I'll have to figure out how to figure this out HA! 

I didn't see the K1-201 in Eagle Rock's tool lineup because it doesn't pop up when you go to Knurling Tools. I did find it with a search of that specific tool. Thanks for the tip!


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## LooseNut (Feb 4, 2020)

mikey said:


> Choosing a lathe based on a knurling tool is a novel approach, I must say. Might I ask what else you might want to do with it because that is the real criteria that determines the size of the lathe you buy. Will knurls with his 12" lathe and I use the same knurler on my 11" lathe. Different guys, different lathes, same knurler, see?



I'll be using the lathe for prototypes / small runs of 6061 BMX pegs 31mm-37mm give or take. Obviously, I'd like to buy the "forever lathe" now. However, for budgetary reasons, I'd rather save money and/or hunt for a used large lathe (New PM or Vintage American). 

Basically, I just want the bare minimum tool to get the job done so I can take more time on the major purchase.  That being said, investing in good tooling from the start seems like a sound investment (knowing I'll be upgrading the lathe down the line).


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## DavidR8 (Feb 4, 2020)

@LooseNut ahhh BMX pegs! I remember your thread on another forum. Glad to see you made it here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LooseNut (Feb 4, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> @LooseNut ahhh BMX pegs! I remember your thread on another forum. Glad to see you made it here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, this forum is more my speed HA!


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## ErichKeane (Feb 4, 2020)

With those clamp-style knurlers the only force on the lathe is laterally (Z axis) when moving left to right, and sufficient HP to spin the material under the (admittedly minor) resistence of the knurl.  Both of those forces are controlled by the clamping force, which is adjustable.  Any lathe that can get that tool on center should be able to use that tool.

However, if you go too small (like a 7x24 or so), the amount you'd be able to tighten the knurl is extremely small, thus making this a REALLY time consuming activity.  IMO, the 10" lathes are always a sweet spot for cost vs capability, so I'd suggest not wasting money on something smaller.


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## middle.road (Feb 4, 2020)

Do a search on this forum for knurling, knurlers.
There is quite a lot of info regarding the matter. There's home-brewed and purchased, the whole spectrum.


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## mikey (Feb 4, 2020)

LooseNut said:


> I'll be using the lathe for prototypes / small runs of 6061 BMX pegs 31mm-37mm give or take. Obviously, I'd like to buy the "forever lathe" now. However, for budgetary reasons, I'd rather save money and/or hunt for a used large lathe (New PM or Vintage American).
> 
> Basically, I just want the bare minimum tool to get the job done so I can take more time on the major purchase.  That being said, investing in good tooling from the start seems like a sound investment (knowing I'll be upgrading the lathe down the line).



Thanks, that helps. Not sure what your budgetary constraints are right now but just knowing the size of the stock you're working with and the size of the knurling tool you want to use, I would look at a PM1340GT or something similar right off the bat. When you consider what it costs to buy a lathe, ship it, install it, tool it up ... knowing you plan to upgrade later ... it makes more sense to me to just bite the bullet instead of doing it twice.


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## ErichKeane (Feb 4, 2020)

mikey said:


> Thanks, that helps. Not sure what your budgetary constraints are right now but just knowing the size of the stock you're working with and the size of the knurling tool you want to use, I would look at a PM1340GT or something similar right off the bat. When you consider what it costs to buy a lathe, ship it, install it, tool it up ... knowing you plan to upgrade later ... it makes more sense to me to just bite the bullet instead of doing it twice.


Right, the cost of the lathe itself is actually only a small amount of the investment.  The tooling and accessories end up adding up over years.  I would hate to spend a few years building up everything for a small lathe, then deciding I need a bigger one and basically end up having to give away all your tooling to the new buyer.  Thats why you end up finding used lathes for sale with a bunch of tooling  

I probably wouldn't start with less than a ~10" x24" lathe, anything smaller you end up outgrowing so quickly that it ends up being wasted money.  On top of that, 10" lathes actually have resale value, but a 7" one is basically valueless on the used market (since the cheap ones are $500).


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## BGHansen (Feb 4, 2020)

I've got a genuine Eagle Rock and a Shars clone.  I haven't noticed a difference in knurl quality between the two in aluminum or stainless steel.  I'd go with the Shars for 1/4th the price.

Bruce


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## LooseNut (Feb 4, 2020)

BGHansen said:


> I've got a genuine Eagle Rock and a Shars clone.  I haven't noticed a difference in knurl quality between the two in aluminum or stainless steel.  I'd go with the Shars for 1/4th the price.
> 
> Bruce


Is this the tool you're referring to: 






I couldn't find a Shars Scissor Knurling Tool.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 4, 2020)

__





						shars.com - Knurl Tooling
					

Shop Shars Tool today and see why customers choose our high quality knurling tools at a great value, same-day shipping, and dedicated customer support




					www.shars.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LooseNut (Feb 4, 2020)

mikey said:


> Thanks, that helps. Not sure what your budgetary constraints are right now but just knowing the size of the stock you're working with and the size of the knurling tool you want to use, I would look at a PM1340GT or something similar right off the bat. When you consider what it costs to buy a lathe, ship it, install it, tool it up ... knowing you plan to upgrade later ... it makes more sense to me to just bite the bullet instead of doing it twice.


The PM1340GT is the lathe I'd like to purchase should I go the new route. I'm still hawking CL for vintage American deals... haven't had much luck in a month or so's time. When looking at the PM1340GT, I start getting light headed seeing all the 2 stage setups and modifications, etc. I also need to invest in a proper compressed air setup. The dollars keep adding up when I start really pricing biting the bullet.

This is basically what's got me here trying to back off and go the cheap route and live with it for a year - 2 years... get my feet wet, learn, etc.

If I had $7K-10K to spend, this wouldn't be a discussion.


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## LooseNut (Feb 4, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm still not seeing a scissor style knurling tool. Are we talking about the clamp style? If so, it's a 3/8 shank tool... which opens up the options if I'm not mistaken.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 4, 2020)

LooseNut said:


> I'm still not seeing a scissor style knurling tool. Are we talking about the clamp style? If so, it's a 3/8 shank tool... which opens up the options if I'm not mistaken.



In my noob-ness I see the one from Shars and a scissor type as the same as compared to a bump style. 
But that could be a false equivalency. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mikey (Feb 4, 2020)

LooseNut said:


> The PM1340GT is the lathe I'd like to purchase should I go the new route. I'm still hawking CL for vintage American deals... haven't had much luck in a month or so's time. When looking at the PM1340GT, I start getting light headed seeing all the 2 stage setups and modifications, etc. I also need to invest in a proper compressed air setup. The dollars keep adding up when I start really pricing biting the bullet.
> 
> This is basically what's got me here trying to back off and go the cheap route and live with it for a year - 2 years... get my feet wet, learn, etc.
> 
> If I had $7K-10K to spend, this wouldn't be a discussion.



Totally understand the cost issues. The reason I suggested the PM1340 is because it is ideal for what you have in mind. The spindle bore will take your 37mm stock easily and it is a Taiwanese lathe with a good build. It has all the features a good engine lathe has but in a smaller package and at a steal of a cost for what it is. Another option is the 1236T; it is also worth a look.

Believe it or not, I'm actually looking at this from a cost standpoint. If I was going to do prototype work or small production work then I would want to start off with a lathe that can do that kind of work. It will NOT pay to buy a small hobby class lathe and then trade up to a 1340; it will cost you more to do it that way. I would also opt for a new lathe that will work right out of the gate instead of having to deal with wear and functionality issues.

You should also understand that fully tooling up a lathe will cost you nearly as much money as the lathe does, if not more. This is less of a concern if you can recover those costs by selling what the lathe produces so if your marketing survey looks good and you think you can make a go of it then buying a lathe like this might just be the best bet for you.

Perhaps you might discuss this with some of your family members who would invest some money in your dreams. If my son came to me with this idea, I would buy the lathe for him and tell him to go for it. Something to think about, maybe?

Good luck to you with this.


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## middle.road (Feb 4, 2020)

Hi Dad...      (sorry, couldn't resist...)


mikey said:


> Totally understand the cost issues. The reason I suggested the PM1340 is because it is ideal for what you have in mind. The spindle bore will take your 37mm stock easily and it is a Taiwanese lathe with a good build. It has all the features a good engine lathe has but in a smaller package and at a steal of a cost for what it is. Another option is the 1236T; it is also worth a look.
> 
> Believe it or not, I'm actually looking at this from a cost standpoint. If I was going to do prototype work or small production work then I would want to start off with a lathe that can do that kind of work. It will NOT pay to buy a small hobby class lathe and then trade up to a 1340; it will cost you more to do it that way. I would also opt for a new lathe that will work right out of the gate instead of having to deal with wear and functionality issues.
> 
> ...


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## LooseNut (Feb 4, 2020)

mikey said:


> Totally understand the cost issues. The reason I suggested the PM1340 is because it is ideal for what you have in mind. The spindle bore will take your 37mm stock easily and it is a Taiwanese lathe with a good build. It has all the features a good engine lathe has but in a smaller package and at a steal of a cost for what it is. Another option is the 1236T; it is also worth a look.
> 
> Believe it or not, I'm actually looking at this from a cost standpoint. If I was going to do prototype work or small production work then I would want to start off with a lathe that can do that kind of work. It will NOT pay to buy a small hobby class lathe and then trade up to a 1340; it will cost you more to do it that way. I would also opt for a new lathe that will work right out of the gate instead of having to deal with wear and functionality issues.
> 
> ...


You're a good guy. I hope to do the same for my son some day. Your insight is valuable and I agree with everything you've said. But, there's still that cost problem... the upfront one.

I'm still soaking up all the advice and exploring options. Hopefully I can find an affordable solution. 

Thanks again for the quality advice.


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## SLK001 (Feb 4, 2020)

You could always build your own.

Here is the one I built:



It is basically a Marlco clone with a 4" capacity.  It is capable of producing a deep knurl with a single pass.  Here's a pic of a single pass knurl:


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## LooseNut (Feb 5, 2020)

SLK001 said:


> You could always build your own.
> 
> Here is the one I built:
> View attachment 312683
> ...


That's fantastic. Do you by chance have a build thread on this tool? Drawings etc.?


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## ThinWoodsman (Feb 5, 2020)

Shars may not stock them any more, but Travers does (their TTC brand): 








						TTC Quick Acting Clamp Type Knurling Tools
					

Make Perfect Knurl Patterns with TTC Quick Acting Clamp Type Knurling Tools. The quick-acting clamp-type knurling tools from TTC offer long-lasting performance. They allow for a faster setup so that you can readily start working with them. Their rugged construction and scissor-type knurling...




					www.travers.com
				




You can always use a lantern or 4-way toolpost instead of a QCTP, to get around the shank size restriction. HP is important, as it the rigidity of the saddle - with those Sieg-style 7" swing bench lathes, you can see the saddle flexing when trying to do a deep knurl.


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## BGHansen (Feb 5, 2020)

LooseNut said:


> Is this the tool you're referring to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is.  I do like the clamp nut on my Eagle Rock over the Shars.  I can put a ratchet on the Eagle Rock and really clamp down, little tougher with the knob on the Shars.  I do the tightening with the lathe turning and am always a little uneasy with the Shars knob bumping the spinning chuck jaws with my hand.  It's safer on the Eagle Rock with the ratchet way far away from the chuck jaws.  One of the projects on my "list of good intentions" is to either tap a new nut for the Shars from some 3/4" hex stock on hand or just run a hardware store nut/washer in place.

Bruce


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## SLK001 (Feb 5, 2020)

LooseNut said:


> That's fantastic. Do you by chance have a build thread on this tool? Drawings etc.?



I have drawings, but I haven't written up a thread.  It's something that I have been meaning to do.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 5, 2020)

The G4000 is a 9x19 lathe, for $100 more you could get the G602, a 10x22 lathe, almost 100lbs heavier (1/3 again the weight of the 9x19), a little larger swing, 1" spindle bore vs 0.78".

Buying new from Grizzly this seems like a much better option if budget is keeping you from getting the lathe you really want. Size wise the G4000 is a little more mobile, 250lbs so 2 people can move it without equipment. The G602 is 330lbs so at the limits of moving it without mechanical help. 

I just bought an Enco 9x20 to play with which is practically identical to the G4000 (it was close and cheap   ). It really isn't a bad small lathe, not at all in the same class as the 7x mini-lathes. There is an active community for them and a ton of DIY improvements out there for it. These DIY mods are popular though because stock it has some shortcomings.

They have been around since the early 90s and were sold under a lot of different brands Grizzly, Jet, Enco but they are basically all the same, so there are a lot of them on the used market. Marketed as both a 9x19 and a 9x20. Jet also offers a longer bed version as a 9x29.

Grizzly's 10x22 is not the same as the PM and Weiss 10x22 lathes.


Figure buying either a 9x19 or 10x22 new you will lose half if you sell it. $800 + partial cost on whatever tooling doesn't transfer to have a lathe now vs in several years doesn't sound that awful to me. It can also handy to have a smaller lathe around and those 9x19 and 10x22 lathes don't take up all that much space (about 3 feet long).


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## Aaron_W (Feb 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> In my noob-ness I see the one from Shars and a scissor type as the same as compared to a bump style.
> But that could be a false equivalency.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not sure what benefit there is to scissors vs clamp style, but these are preferable to the bump type (push against the work from the tool post side) because they apply pressure on the work piece evenly don't put a strain on the lathes spindle bearings.


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## SLK001 (Feb 5, 2020)

Below is a picture of the finished knurler after a trip to the blackening tank.  I'll create a write up over in the projects area (I'm trying to get a sub-forum set up).  I'll title the project "Marlco Knurler Clone" - in case anyone is interested.


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## ErichKeane (Feb 5, 2020)

I haven't used the clamp type, but I do own a scissor type(now that this thread has shown me the difference!). I will say that the down side to a scissor type is that the torque on the pivot bolt is REALLY sensitive and needs to be pretty accurate to get clean cuts when moving on the Z axis, particularly with a heavy cut.

That clamp style seems like it fixes that issue.  That said, I still can get great knurls with the scissor type as long as I do shallower cuts or pay particularly attention to that pivot bolt.


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## darkzero (Feb 5, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Not sure what benefit there is to scissors vs clamp style



Generally the scissor type can apply more pressure than the clamp style & is better for harder materials. Clamp style usually has a thumb nut & the scissor type has a nut to be used with a wrench. Also due to the design there's more leverage applied due to the nut placement on the arms.

I knew some one with a genuine Aloris clamp style knurler & he was not happy with it. Didn't perform well on harder materials & would flex/bend when tightening the thumb nut with pliers.


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## mikey (Feb 5, 2020)

Is there a real difference between what you guys are calling the clamp style vs the typical scissors knurler? Both have two arms that close on the work in a scissors-like fashion to create the knurling force. I can see that there might be a mechanical advantage to the Eagle Rock type of tool over the style where the arms are pulled together by a screw/nut/handle but in terms of function, what is the difference? I've just lumped them all into the "scissors knurler" category until now.

I own an Eagle Rock K1-44, an Aloris AXA-19 and a shop made "clamp" knurler. All work well except that the Eagle Rock is maybe gooder on harder stuff. For regular shop materials I don't see a lot of difference.


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## darkzero (Feb 5, 2020)

That's basically what it comes down to, different designs & how much pressure the different designs can apply.

I've always called the old Aloris #19 a clamp style. Not sure if Aloris is the actual designer of this style & not sure of the actual proper names of all the different styles. Like this below except this is a shop made one. They usually have a thumb wheel/nut in front of the pivot to adjust pressure. The pivots can only handle so much & will flex when too much force is applied. Some clamp styles have just one pivot instead of two.



Then there are straddle types. Below are the 2 different styles I have know as the straddle type. However I suppose the clamp style above can be considered a straddle type. The heavier duty version is much like a scissor type where the adjuster is behind the pivot. The smaller straddle type has a smaller adjuster that works much like the clamp style above.






Then there's yet another style called a straddle type. It's the style that Aloris currently offers. I believe Aloris no longer makes the #19 clamp style with a thumb nut. I have a small Dorian one in this style.




For the standard scissor type there is simply a bolt & nut that holds the 2 arms & shank together. The Eagle Rock heavy duty type also uses a bolt to hold the arms together but instead of a nut the bolt threads directly into the much beefier mount on the shank & is also secured with a set screw to adjust play/twist under pressure.

I don't oppose one style over the other. They all have their advantages & disadvantages. I'm certainly no expert on knurling (or anything related to this hobby), these were just my observations when I searched for knurling tools. There's yet even more styles for form knurlers like the 3 wheel style. Use whatever works for you is what I do, bump knurlers included. Still need to play with my cut knurlers that I bought like 2 yrs ago.


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## middle.road (Feb 5, 2020)

$$
$$$
$$$
$$$$$$$



darkzero said:


> That's basically what it comes down to, different designs & how much pressure the different designs can apply.
> 
> I've always called the old Aloris #19 a clamp style. Not sure if Aloris is the actual designer of this style & not sure of the actual proper names of all the different styles. Like this below except this is a shop made one. They usually have a thumb wheel/nut in front of the pivot to adjust pressure. The pivots can only handle so much & will flex when too much force is applied. Some clamp styles have just one pivot instead of two.
> View attachment 312755
> ...


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## mikey (Feb 5, 2020)

Thanks, Will. I agree. I own one of each type you showed and all of them work well. My favorite is my shop-made one; it isn't the most powerful of the three but it is the most precise and produces the nicest knurls. 

Okay, we are way off topic.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 5, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Generally the scissor type can apply more pressure than the clamp style & is better for harder materials. Clamp style usually has a thumb nut & the scissor type has a nut to be used with a wrench. Also due to the design there's more leverage applied due to the nut placement on the arms.
> 
> I knew some one with a genuine Aloris clamp style knurler & he was not happy with it. Didn't perform well on harder materials & would flex/bend when tightening the thumb nut with pliers.




Makes sense, I can see how the different designs could each offer certain benefits over the others.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 5, 2020)

LooseNut, just for the sake of completeness I thought I would throw in some info on the three wheel type knurler that DarkZero mentioned. The advantage of this type of knurler is that you can apply a tremendous amount of force to the three knurl wheels without putting any lateral force on the spindle/spindle bearings or displacing your work.  Because of this you can knurl very deeply in one pass and you can knurl thin(.085”) stock if ever needed. I am not sure if the scissor or clamp-style knurlers will work on real thin stuff.

I think this style would work well for your intended job since it would put a deep knurl pattern on your 6061 with a single pass and with minimal stress on your dream lathe. However, these knurlers are expensive and there is no used market for them; I looked for months and couldn’t find a single one on eBay or CL. I eventually broke down and purchased a new one from Dorian.  Another disadvantage for you is that the tool post shank is large on these tools.  To get a three wheel knurler to handle up to 1” stock the shaft is .75” and to do 1.5” stock the shaft is 1”.  I had to modify my tool holder on my PM 1236-T to get the 1” shaft to fit and to align with my lathe center. 

Anyway, here are a couple shots from the Dorian cotologue and some shots of a project I just finished where I put a deep diamond knurl pattern on a 1.25” piece of O1 tool steel in one pass.  BTW, the PM 1236-T had no difficulty with this job.  Knurnling does not seem to require a lot of HP so I don’t think that will be much of an issue for you and your new lathe.

Good luck with your project and keep us posted,
Mike


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## mikey (Feb 5, 2020)

Very nice, very bank!


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 5, 2020)

mikey said:


> Very nice, very bank!



Alright, what the hell does, “very bank” mean.  I couldn’t even find it in my urban dictionary.  It’s bad enough feeling uncool with my sons, now I am uncool on my escape Forum!

BTW, any idea what the project is?


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## darkzero (Feb 5, 2020)

Broke da bank. Oh wait, I got confused with broke da mouth. 

Ok, ok, ok.... expensive!


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## mikey (Feb 6, 2020)

Yeah, "bank" is just slang for very expensive, which that thing is.

Here is what the OP is thinking:_* I'll be using the lathe for prototypes / small runs of 6061 BMX pegs 31mm-37mm give or take. *_

He won't need a big lathe to knurl with but for a production situation he is better off with something that can pass the working stock through the spindle bore.


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## Aukai (Feb 6, 2020)

I don't have my knurler yet to say how it will perform on my PM 12/28 which has a 1.5" through bore, or if that machine is even a consideration for use. UPS Ground


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## davidpbest (Feb 6, 2020)

I bought a scissors knuler from Shars, and after about 2 hours use, I concluded it wasn't precise enough for my needs.   The knurling wheels were sloppy as was the scissors joint and I could not get a decent knurl out of it in 316 stainless.   I thought for a while about doing a serious rebuild/modification to it *like this*, but then decided it was just too much trouble to make the wheels easily removable for different knurl patterns.

So I broke down and bought the Eagle Rock K1-44 based primarily on *this review*.   I could not be happier with it.

I run a PM1340, and the Eagle Rock is a good paring for this lathe - *this is the one I bought*.    I have added several different knurling wheels sourced from MSC.

*Here's an example* of the Eagle Rock on my PM1340 in action with 316 stainless.    

And the results:   




It is important to get the OD dialed in properly for the given knurl pitch.   Attached is the spreadsheet I use to figure the proper OD once the pitch is known.   Maybe this will be useful to someone.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> I bought a scissors knuler from Shars, and after about 2 hours use, I concluded it wasn't precise enough for my needs.   The knurling wheels were sloppy as was the scissors joint and I could not get a decent knurl out of it in 316 stainless.   I thought for a while about doing a serious rebuild/modification to it *like this*, but then decided it was just too much trouble to make the wheels easily removable for different knurl patterns.
> 
> So I broke down and bought the Eagle Rock K1-44 based primarily on *this review*.   I could not be happier with it.
> 
> ...



Very nice, and thanks for the spreadsheet.

Dorian sent me a live worksheet like this:


Once it is downloaded and activated you just punch in the appropriate numbers and it calculates the missing data. I tried to attach the worksheet but got the following message:


...so I am unable to pass it on but it has turned out to be a handy tool for me.  If anyone can figure this out I am happy to try to re-send the worksheet.

Mike


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## mmcmdl (Feb 6, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I don't have my knurler yet to say how it will perform on my PM 12/28 which has a 1.5" through bore, or if that machine is even a consideration for use. UPS Ground



Shucks Mike . I sold my Eagle Rocks years back on the bay . If I only woulda known .  The Eagle Rocks were good tools . I made a scissor knurler years ago out of Almar which was my scissor type keeper . I have a tangential knurling tool which works absolutely great but has a 1" max capacity . As far as the regular old push type knurls , I have more than a few .


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2020)

That Dorian calculator is pretty cool with all the detailed info it provides. I have a basic knurling calculator on my phone (all I need).


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## davidpbest (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> If anyone can figure this out I am happy to try to re-send the worksheet.
> 
> Mike



Open the spreadsheet and see if you can save it as an XLS file instead of XLSX.   That might work, or it might kill the features of the spreadsheet, but if you can get it saved as .XLS, you can post it here (or at least I was able to).   On my system, the XLS format is a drop-down as shown below:


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

darkzero said:


> That Dorian calculator is pretty cool with all the detailed info it provides. I have a basic knurling calculator on my phone (all I need).
> 
> View attachment 312801
> View attachment 312803
> View attachment 312804



Thanks Will, that is very nice, straightforward calculator.  

I imagine the Dorian calculator may be geared toward the pros.  For example, someone that is straight knurling on the end of a rod to engage a knob, handle or wheel; someone that actually needs to predict the growth of the knurling pattern.  I think most hobby guys are primarily knurling for decorative or grip purposes where we don’t really need to know such things and just want to avoid double tracking and get a nice looking knurl.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> Open the spreadsheet and see if you can save it as an XLS file instead of XLSX.   That might work, or it might kill the features of the spreadsheet, but if you can get it saved as .XLS, you can post it here (or at least I was able to).   On my system, the XLS format is a drop-down as shown below:
> 
> View attachment 312805


Thanks!  I will give it a try.


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## Cadillac STS (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> LooseNut, just for the sake of completeness I thought I would throw in some info on the three wheel type knurler that DarkZero mentioned. The advantage of this type of knurler is that you can apply a tremendous amount of force to the three knurl wheels without putting any lateral force on the spindle/spindle bearings or displacing your work.  Because of this you can knurl very deeply in one pass and you can knurl thin(.085”) stock if ever needed. I am not sure if the scissor or clamp-style knurlers will work on real thin stuff.
> 
> I think this style would work well for your intended job since it would put a deep knurl pattern on your 6061 with a single pass and with minimal stress on your dream lathe. However, these knurlers are expensive and there is no used market for them; I looked for months and couldn’t find a single one on eBay or CL. I eventually broke down and purchased a new one from Dorian.  Another disadvantage for you is that the tool post shank is large on these tools.  To get a three wheel knurler to handle up to 1” stock the shaft is .75” and to do 1.5” stock the shaft is 1”.  I had to modify my tool holder on my PM 1236-T to get the 1” shaft to fit and to align with my lathe center.
> 
> ...




*Wow this is begging for a DIY project using a 3 jaw chuck mounted in the tail stock with the 3 jaws modified to hold knurl wheels.  Slot the end of the jaw and drill for a hardened pin for the 3 knurl wheels....  Maybe small 3 jaw mounted on a stick to mount in the QCTP even easier...*


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## ACHiPo (Feb 6, 2020)

SLK001 said:


> Below is a picture of the finished knurler after a trip to the blackening tank.  I'll create a write up over in the projects area (I'm trying to get a sub-forum set up).  I'll title the project "Marlco Knurler Clone" - in case anyone is interested.
> 
> View attachment 312746


Seeing your nice work reminded me that Hemingway makes a knurler kit:





						Knurling Tools - hemingwaykits.com
					

Unique projects for the small workshop owner. Please browse our Toolroom and Engine Bay for our latest project kits.



					www.hemingwaykits.com
				




Looks interesting.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

Cadillac STS said:


> *Wow this is begging for a DIY project using a 3 jaw chuck mounted in the tail stock with the 3 jaws modified to hold knurl wheels.  Slot the end of the jaw and drill for a hardened pin for the 3 knurl wheels....  Maybe small 3 jaw mounted on a stick to mount in the QCTP even easier...*



Very good guess...but not correct.

I will give one more clue that is pretty obscure because I don't want to make it too easy for guys like Mikey and DarkZero and I don't want to hijack the OP's thread.  It is part of a larger project that I will post as soon as I can.

                                             Clue:   7,7,30


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## francist (Feb 6, 2020)

mikey said:


> my shop-made one; it isn't the most powerful of the three but it is the most precise and produces the nicest knurls.


It's also one of the most elegant looking knurling tools I've ever seen....


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## mikey (Feb 6, 2020)

francist said:


> It's also one of the most elegant looking knurling tools I've ever seen....



Thanks, Frank!


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> Very good guess...but not correct.



I believe what @Cadillac STS meant was a DIY knurler project. That Dorian knurler looks based off a micro chuck like Sherlines & Taigs use except the Dorian knurler appears to have dovetails for the "jaws".


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## mikey (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> I will give one more clue that is pretty obscure because I don't want to make it too easy for guys like Mikey and DarkZero and I don't want to hijack the OP's thread.  It is part of a larger project that I will post as soon as I can.
> 
> * Clue:   7,7,30*



Well, anybody who's anybody knows that this is the DIN spec for a camlock spindle taper - 7 degrees, 7 minutes, 30 seconds. BUT what we don't know is what that has to do with a knurled O-1 round thingy unless you are making a D1-4 rectal torture device! Say it ain't so or give us more clues ...


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2020)

I to have no idea why a spindle nose taper would have a knurled handle on it? A gauge for checking/bluing backplates? I dunno but I think it may be a fancy machinist's torch. Gonna mount a chuck to it to hold a flaming torch to run in a marathon or be in a parade.


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## middle.road (Feb 6, 2020)

At over a $1000/ea. for Dorians, I do believe 'Hobby' & 'Budget' have been kicked to the curb.....


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## mikey (Feb 6, 2020)

Mike is a SERIOUS hobbyist!


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2020)




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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

darkzero said:


> I believe what @Cadillac STS meant was a DIY knurler project. That Dorian knurler looks based off a micro chuck like Sherlines & Taigs use except the Dorian knurler appears to have dovetails for the "jaws".
> 
> View attachment 312835


Will, you are right, there is a striking similarity between the micro chuck and the Dorian knurler.  You are also correct that the Dorian does have dovetails(and gibs).  

When you knurl with the Dorian knurler you set the desired closed diameter with the set screws on the collar, then use the red knobbed lever to open and close the knurler.  As you feed the closed knurler onto the stock it’s rotating motion keeps the device closed and forces the knurl wheels into the the stock.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

mikey said:


> Well, anybody who's anybody knows that this is the DIN spec for a camlock spindle taper - 7 degrees, 7 minutes, 30 seconds. BUT what we don't know is what that has to do with a knurled O-1 round thingy unless you are making a D1-4 rectal torture device! Say it ain't so or give us more clues ...



Mike, you are correct(damn it), that is the taper for the D1-4 spindle nose:



And, yes, you are also correct about it’s purpose.  Here it is in use:



I am pretty sure it’s the only one in the world like it.  Agressive knurling keeps it from slipping upon removal.  I am taking orders; can I put you down for one?


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

darkzero said:


> I to have no idea why a spindle nose taper would have a knurled handle on it? A gauge for checking/bluing backplates? I dunno but I think it may be a fancy machinist's torch. Gonna mount a chuck to it to hold a flaming torch to run in a marathon or be in a parade.



I am feeling guilty hijacking the OP’s thread(sorry LooseNut) so here is the answer:




It’s just a dummy D1-4 spindle nose for checking a spindle plate I am making for another project that I will post in a while.


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> It’s just a dummy D1-4 spindle nose for checking a spindle plate I am making for another project that I will post in a while.



Wait wut? So wait a minute, does this mean.....






Well I would have never guessed if Mikey didn't point out the nose taper spec. I've never made my own spindle adapter so that's not something I would remember.

(Sorry OP, we beyond hijacked your thread)


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

middle.road said:


> At over a $1000/ea. for Dorians, I do believe 'Hobby' & 'Budget' have been kicked to the curb.....



Middle.road, I am a newbie and I am taking a chance like our OP.  I have an idea that a company is interested in but they would like a working prototype.  The only tool that I know of that can knurl long, small diameter titanium is the three wheel knurler.  I have taken a risk buying the Dorian tool but to mitigate the risk I bought the one with a 1” shank so it would be more attractive to a pro shop if I need to sell it if all does not work out.  So I see it as taking a limited risk and having fun with my hobby.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Wait wut? So wait a minute, does this mean.....
> 
> View attachment 312862
> 
> ...



Yes, you won, but I think you should share the prize with Mikey.  It’s in the mail.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 6, 2020)

Interesting device . The knurls look to be canted thus would draw the stock thru the wheels ? We use a similar set-up in here at work using rollers for feeding our products thru the lines .


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## middle.road (Feb 6, 2020)

Ah, now it makes sense, doing up a prototype to sell an idea. Good luck & best fortunes!



Titanium Knurler said:


> Middle.road, I am a newbie and I am taking a chance like our OP.  I have an idea that a company is interested in but they would like a working prototype.  The only tool that I know of that can knurl long, small diameter titanium is the three wheel knurler.  I have taken a risk buying the Dorian tool but to mitigate the risk I bought the one with a 1” shank so it would be more attractive to a pro shop if I need to sell it if all does not work out.  So I see it as taking a limited risk and having fun with my hobby.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

mikey said:


> Mike is a SERIOUS hobbyist!



No, just a newbie with a goofy idea


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> Interesting device . The knurls look to be canted thus would draw the stock thru the wheels ? We use a similar set-up in here at work using rollers for feeding our products thru the lines .



Yes mmcmdl, they are canted.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> No, just a newbie with a goofy idea



I always said the easiest way to end up with a million $ in a shop was to start with 2 million $ . Looks like a cool project !


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## mmcmdl (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> Yes mmcmdl, they are canted.



Yep . So I had never seen this before coming to my present plant . We set our rollers on different angles which changes our feed rates of the products thru the extruders . The rollers are actually the feed mechanism .


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

darkzero said:


> I believe what @Cadillac STS meant was a DIY knurler project. That Dorian knurler looks based off a micro chuck like Sherlines & Taigs use except the Dorian knurler appears to have dovetails for the "jaws".
> 
> View attachment 312835



Sorry @Cadillac STS, I thought you were making a guess on the “unknown” device. My mistake.  Mike


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> Yep . So I had never seen this before coming to my present plant . We set our rollers on different angles which changes our feed rates of the products thru the extruders . The rollers are actually the feed mechanism .



Interesting.

Your place have an interest in a lightly used Dorian 3-wheel knurling tool?  Just kidding.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 6, 2020)

Kind of reminded me of a geometric diehead at first . I don't see why that wouldn't work though , theoretically . Those wheels should pull the stock thru the tool , or the tool over the stock .


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## mikey (Feb 6, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Wait wut? So wait a minute, does this mean.....
> 
> View attachment 312862
> 
> ...



Well, I never would have guessed that thing could also double as an Olympic torch, either. Congratulations, Will, the best man won!


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> Yes, you won, but I think you should share the prize with Mikey.  It’s in the mail.



Yes of course! That's why I mentioned him.


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## mikey (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> Mike, you are correct(damn it), that is the taper for the D1-4 spindle nose. I am pretty sure it’s the only one in the world like it.  Agressive knurling keeps it from slipping upon removal.  I am taking orders; can I put you down for one?



Well, if you're going to give a clue on a hobby machining forum then you have to figure some dummy will know obscure information like that, right? As for taking orders, no, I don't think so because I know you're pulling my leg. The knurled part is what you grip and its the BIG end that goes in, right? I all about Caveat Emptor and I are wise to what you're selling so nope, none for me!


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> The only tool that I know of that can knurl long, small diameter titanium is the three wheel knurler.



Not true!  Well depends on how small of diameter. I had that issue, knurling a long piece of titanium. I just had to get creative. I used a follow rest with the carriage feeding to the right. Each piece was 18" to 20" long, 5/8" dia.





They turned into this 30" zombie killing spear. Well that's what the owner called it.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

mikey said:


> Well, if you're going to give a clue on a hobby machining forum then you have to figure some dummy will know obscure information like that, right? As for taking orders, no, I don't think so because I know you're pulling my leg. The knurled part is what you grip and its the BIG end that goes in, right? I all about Caveat Emptor and I are wise to what you're selling so nope, none for me!



OK, no order for you, but I will put a used one aside in case you change your mind.

As far as which end is inserted first, that depends on how big of an #@*hole you have/are.  That’s the beauty of the idea; very simple and it’s reversible!


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 6, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Not true!  Well depends on how small of diameter. I had that issue, knurling a long piece of titanium. I just had to get creative. I used a follow rest with the carriage feeding to the right. Each piece was 18" to 20" long, 5/8" dia.
> 
> View attachment 312873
> 
> ...



Wow, Will, very nice work and very clever set-up.  I want to be like you and Mikey someday-not joking here.

Dorian claims that one can knurl an “infinite length” of .085” material which I think your setup would not be able to do.  However, this is not what I intend to do.  I want to deeply straight knurl 12” pieces of .25” diameter titanium stock.

Will, I am getting bit concerned about your project choices(ice picks & zombie killing spears?!).


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> Wow, Will, very nice work and very clever set-up.  I want to be like you and Mikey someday-not joking here.
> 
> Dorian claims that one can knurl an “infinite length” of .085” material which I think your setup would not be able to do.  However, this is not what I intend to do.  I want to deeply straight knurl 12” pieces of .25” diameter titanium stock.
> 
> Will, I am getting bit concerned about your project choices(ice picks & zombie killing spears?!).



Thanks. Like me? Haha, I'm nobody, just an amateur hobby machinist if even that and I don't consider myself a machinist at any level. But there is that jingle... "I wanna be like Mike". 

Yeah I probably can't knurl long pieces of .085" dia. titanium, maybe just a partial form knurl. The scissor knurler will just spit it out. Had that problem with 1/2" & 5/8 dia titanium. Once it gets to a certain length of material, due to the tool pressure the rod will deflect. That's what your 3 wheel knurler will prevent. I'll never know though, I doubt I'll ever need to knurl something even close to that small of a dia.

Actually the ice picks & spear were not my idea. For the ice picks I was contacted & was asked if I could make a 10" long Ti "sticker". Those are what I came up with and called them ice picks for all the others I made to sell.

The spear was kind of funny. A guy contacted me, asked if I could make a 30"ish long Ti spear/javelin. No other criteria, said everything else was up to me. So that's what I came up with, made it 2 pieces that screws together. When I sent pics & asked what he though, paid me the $500 with no hesitation or questions. I never asked what he wanted it for but later he told me "in case what you were wondering what it was for, its for killing zombies!". Haha.


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## mikey (Feb 7, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Thanks. Like me? Haha, I'm nobody, just an amateur hobby machinist if even that and I don't consider myself a machinist at any level. But there is that jingle... "I wanna be like Mike".



Hey, I'm just bumbling along here. You do NOT want to be anything like me!

Regardless of why you made those ice picks and javelins, they are total works of art, Will. I am in awe of your skills and I'm not kidding. I know of nobody else doing that level of craftsmanship and you should be proud. Hell, I brag about you!


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## darkzero (Feb 7, 2020)

Haha sure we do. Ok maybe not exactly every single thing about you in which you claim but many of us do look up to you.

Wow, thank you very much Mike! That means a lot to me coming from someone as skilled as you! I just try to follow all you guys at a distance, I'm not very good at it either.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 7, 2020)

darkzero said:


> I believe what @Cadillac STS meant was a DIY knurler project. That Dorian knurler looks based off a micro chuck like Sherlines & Taigs use except the Dorian knurler appears to have dovetails for the "jaws".
> 
> View attachment 312835




Sherline sells unfinished chucks that might be useful for wild ideas like building your own version of this.   

Sherline build your own chuck


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## darkzero (Feb 7, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Sherline sells unfinished chucks that might be useful for wild ideas like building your own version of this.
> 
> Sherline build your own chuck



That's pretty cool. I'm not sure how a lathe chuck would hold up to the lateral force when knurling though. I'm sure that's part of the reason why Dorian made dovetails & canted the knurling wheels. I did not expect the wheels to be canted.


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 7, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Sherline sells unfinished chucks that might be useful for wild ideas like building your own version of this.
> 
> Sherline build your own chuck



That’s nice that one can put together a custom chuck and some of the jaws offered look like they would lend themselves to a project like that but I think Will’s comments about the need for dovetails/gibs and canted wheels is probably correct which would make it a very difficult project for me.

*I am starting to figure out this hobby. It goes something like this: you want to make something but you need to buy or make a tool to make it and then you need to buy or make a tool to make that tool...sounds like fun, I’m in.*


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 7, 2020)

[QUOTE="darkzero, post: 716024, member: 

Yeah I probably can't knurl long pieces of .085" dia. titanium, maybe just a partial form knurl. The scissor knurler will just spit it out. Had that problem with 1/2" & 5/8 dia titanium. Once it gets to a certain length of material, due to the tool pressure the rod will deflect. That's what your 3 wheel knurler will prevent. *I'll never know though, I doubt I'll ever need to knurl something even close to that small of a dia.*

Will, if you ever do let me know, I will send the 3-wheeler out to you.


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## Cadillac STS (Feb 7, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Sherline sells unfinished chucks that might be useful for wild ideas like building your own version of this.
> 
> Sherline build your own chuck



I have a Sherline lathe with that type of chuck.  Problem is I don't think it would put on near the amount of pressure needed on for knurling.  They do look like the Dorian setup though. 

I did however scan eBay for 3 jaw chucks and looks like for $40 or less and a month wait a workable new 3 jaw direct from China can be had for a project like this...  Dedicated mount for the cross slide, drill and tap the jaws.  Can drill and tap both sides of the jaws for two sets of knurls and some come with an extra set of jaws  (Would be sure to buy one with reversible jaws to be sure they could be turned around) that also could be drilled and tapped so could have 4 different sets of knurl roller setups ready to go.  Mill the jaws flat to have more direct torque and not the "Overhang" of the jaws sticking out, flat jaws then canted on each end.  Order hardened shoulder bolts for the knurl wheels.


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## Cadillac STS (Feb 7, 2020)

One missing number.  What is the angle of the cant for the knurls on the Dorian?  That number may push this into a real DIY situation..


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## Titanium Knurler (Feb 7, 2020)

Cadillac STS said:


> One missing number.  What is the angle of the cant for the knurls on the Dorian?  That number may push this into a real DIY *situation*..



CadillacSTS, this would be a DIY _*crisis*_ for me.

Here is a shot I lifted from Dorian’s catalogue(https://www.doriantool.com/wp-content/uploads/SEC-H-Knurling-Tools_LowRes.pdf).  I am not sure how accurate it is but the cant of the knurl wheels look to be the same as my knurler:




This looks like a very difficult project to me but if you can pull it off I think it will be worth your time.  If you decide to tackle this project I hope you will keep us abreast of your progress.  If you need any measurements from my knurler let me know.  

Mike


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## ErichKeane (Feb 7, 2020)

1 problem with the 3 jaws is that the center hole ACTUAL 3 jaw chucks is going to be criminally small.  I just looked at a 80mm chuck that had only a .63" pass through!  You'd be severely limited there.

I'm guessing THAT is why they are using dovetails, since the knurls are cantilevered further than a chuck jaw would be.


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## szenieh (May 22, 2020)

Where did you source that Dorian Knurling tool from?

Question meant for *Titanium Knurler *...


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## Titanium Knurler (May 22, 2020)

Hi szenieh,  I have a friend that is a salesman for an industrial supply outfit here in Milwaukee that purchased it for me using his discount.  You might want to contact Dorian to see if you have a supplier near you.  It is not something you will find at Shars, etc.. I don’t think they sell many and I am pretty convinced that they had to make the one I ordered since it took several months to receive it after I placed the order.

I will look for some contact information for you and send it along if I can find it.  Please feel free to contact me if there is anything else I can do to help.

Mike


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## szenieh (May 22, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> Hi szenieh,  I have a friend that is a salesman for an industrial supply outfit here in Milwaukee that purchased it for me using his discount.  You might want to contact Dorian to see if you have a supplier near you.  It is not something you will find at Shars, etc.. I don’t think they sell many and I am pretty convinced that they had to make the one I ordered since it took several months to receive it after I placed the order.
> 
> I will look for some contact information for you and send it along if I can find it.  Please feel free to contact me if there is anything else I can do to help.
> 
> Mike


Thank you for the reply and the offer to help- much appreciated. I am enjoying this thread and the work you're trying to do is impressive.  

Salah


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## Titanium Knurler (May 22, 2020)




----------

