# MRI results = Disc protrusion/annular tear and severe neural foraminal stenosis



## Janderso (Feb 20, 2020)

I've had back issues for many years. In the last six months I have noticed sciatic type pain on both sides and a moderate to severe, at times, nerve activity down the legs.
I also find if I am machining or standing in one spot for a while I have stiffening and quite a bit of pain.
I wasn't expecting this diagnosis. Several of my lumbar vertebrae are involved with severe central canal narrowing as well.
I am scheduled to see my primary doc today and she will send me off to a neurologist to see if there is any permanent nerve damage.
I know many of you suffer from back problems, I'm wondering if any of you have found relief from steroid injections/epidural?
Physical therapy?
I'm at the discovery stage of this new development.
I do not want surgery!
Thanks for your thoughts.
Jeff


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## MrCrankyface (Feb 20, 2020)

I've had similar issues for the last 11 years to varying degrees, at 2 points in this period I haven't been able to walk for a week each.
What has helped me is lots of physical therapy, both moving on my own and with help of a rehab trainer to help me figure out what exactly needs to be trained up to help with spine stability.
I know some people find it controversial but chiropractors has also helped a bit, just have to find a professional one and not a quack..

Late edit: Only consider surgery as an absolutely last resort.
Exhaust all other options with patience first.


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## cathead (Feb 20, 2020)

The first thing I would do would be to get a high potency bottle of B complex vitamins.  They are all water soluble vitamins so
safe to take every day.  They are not a cure all but certainly are beneficial for healthy nerves.  You are on the right track going to
a neurologist.


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## JimDawson (Feb 20, 2020)

My doctors couldn't do anything for similar problems, I basically couldn't walk more than about 100 feet any longer.  I stopped by the sporting goods store on my way home from the last doctor visit and picked up an inversion table on sale for $100.  Ended the problem in a couple of days.  About 10 minutes/day of hanging upside down did wonders for me.  This was about 10 years ago and I'm still going, and I haven't been to a doctor since.


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## jbobb1 (Feb 20, 2020)

I had fusion back surgery over 35 years ago(I'm sure they used hammers and chisels at the time). Lumbar region. Had significate nerve damage that was able to be cared for in a positive way. I don't take any pain meds, I only try to keep myself in fairly good shape. I'm 62 and still have my bad days, but staying mobile even on those days was the key for me.


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## DiscoDan (Feb 20, 2020)

I have had degenerative disc issues for many years. Got so bad I could barely walk. I had one epidural injection many years ago and fortunately that took care of the worst of the pain but it has been a constant companion since. What I found helped more than anything was exercise. I started taking a class at the Y called gravity, which uses the commercial version of the Total Gym that you see Christie Brinkley and Chuck Norris use on TV. It is a full body workout and the stretching and core exercises kept me relatively pain-free as long as I was working out. When I stopped I definitely felt it. I think a big piece of it is piriformis stretching.

Good luck.


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## C-Bag (Feb 20, 2020)

My younger brother has had the top 3-4 vertebrae and same at the bottom of his spine fused. On top of that rotator cuff on both sides. He's disabled and has no feeling in his hands and they are so swollen all the time he can't make a fist. On his first surgery they almost killed him. He was swollen from his cheeks down to his chest and had no neck and couldn't breathe. When he complained to his nurse she called him a sissy so got dressed somehow and went down and checked himself out and walked the 10 blocks home at 3am in downtown Stockton. I think the only reason nobody mugged him was he truly looked like a zombie being black and blue from his eyes down to his chest. When his doc came in the next morning to check on him and found him gone he called and my brother told him what happened and they sent an ambulance to get him. When his doc examined him he broke down and cried at the sight of him. Of course that didn't stop his doc from charging again for another surgery. 

I experienced the most excruciating pain I've ever felt when my neck basically locked up. Aspirin, no meds even dented the pain. Went to a chiropractor and he X rayed my neck and from basically 50yrs of everything I did as a mech/welder/fabricator always looking down I had no natural bow in my neck pinching a nerve. My neck was so frozen I had to drink with a straw because I could not even look straight ahead only down. The only thing the chiropractor did that was good was the X-ray , none of his stuff worked and could not lay on a couch. Luckily there was a new acupuncturist in town straight from Bejing university. I am terrified of needles and never would have contemplated this but had not slept in 4 days as if I laid down the pain got worse until I had to get up. She did her thing and I could for the first time look level and was able to sleep. Down form a constant 10 to about a 8. Went back next day, down from 8 to 5, could now turn my head a little and drink normally. Went back day to two later and down from 5 to 2/3 and after a few days back to normal.
Sorry for the long book.


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## Janderso (Feb 20, 2020)

Wow,
You guys have been there and done that.
My wife swears by her accupunturist. She does yoga too. I'm 63, in pretty good health. I have a lot to live for. I would like to nip this in the bud as soon as I can.
Thanks for the support.


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## C-Bag (Feb 20, 2020)

Hang in there. I'm proud for ya that you want to avoid surgery. And are at least skeptical of western med. I have been through the ringer and learned that with the right therapy I can avoid it and be not only be ok but defy the odds. But there are a bunch of quacks on both sides and I'll be the first to admit in both of my dire scrapes i was insanely lucky to find the right person and I found the cure. The problem with the spine is its treated as its fragile and it is not. It's far more robust than surgeons would have you believe. DiscoDan hit the nail on the head that stretching and strength are key and more and more vital as we age. My neck problem was relieved by acupuncture but it took stretching and exercise to counteract those decades of work that took me in the wrong direction. 
Best of luck.


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## Meta Key (Feb 20, 2020)

I've had lower back issues for a few years now.  Lots of injuries of various types over many years roaming this planet.  But, the last year or two have been pretty bad.  A couple of weeks ago my wife told me that since I sleep on my side that I need to put a small pillow between my knees when I sleep.  (She was an ER nurse for most of her life and knows a thing or two..)

So, WTH?  I thought I'd give it a shot.  Had a little 'camping' pillow and I stuffed it between my knees at night.  Took a night or two to get used to it but ----- problem solved!

Now, I wake up with no back pain whatsoever.  I still can't push it like I did when I was younger and by the end of the day my back is tired but I'm not in pain all day like I was before.

So, if you sleep on your side, give it a shot.  The pillow I'm using compresses down to maybe 2 or 3"; it's not huge, but, it's enough..

(Also, physical therapy is GREAT and so is staying in shape.  I do my PT exercises (mostly yoga stuff)  E V E R Y  morning right out of bed.  Have missed maybe 10 days in the past 3 years.  Life changing, I tell ya..)

MK


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## pontiac428 (Feb 20, 2020)

Every case is different, but here's my story.  I found myself with a geriatric muscleoskeletal system as early as my mid-twenties.  By the time I hit 30, my lumbar spine was toast, causing all sorts of nerve pain and intense, blinding spikes.  I tried physical therapy, weight loss, massage, and several epidurals.  The epidurals were hit or miss, literally.  If they hit the spot, they would work for a few months, if they missed (2 out of 3 times) I would end up in even worse pain from the botched epidural.  Eventually, a total disc replacement was offered, and I took it.  I got another decade of insane mountain biking out of it before I started having pain again, but at least I never lost my range of motion.  These days I need to be just as careful as ever, but I do not have nerve pain at all.  Whether or not to go ahead with surgery is a complicated decision.  If you can live with the pain, then stick with the devil you know.  If it is impacting your quality of life and you fear for the future, then get surgery, it can improve things.


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## Nutfarmer (Feb 20, 2020)

If you do have to have surgery make sure to have a neurosurgeon do it not an orthopedist . With a diagnosis like you have be very careful of chiropractors. Bending the spine just wrong with nerves that are pinched can cause permanent damage. I had lower back surgery in the mid 70's. What helps me the most is a good hot tub with the water jets playing on the sore spot. Everyone is different. Above all else don't do anything to make it worse. Injections can help with inflammation and soft tissue damage ,but may not help much with nerves rubbing on bone. Good luck and if you have to have surgery find the best doctor you can to do it.


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## MontanaLon (Feb 20, 2020)

Rub some dirt on it!


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## savarin (Feb 20, 2020)

In the early 70's I fell off a horse, landed on a rock, broke L4 and L5 in my spine.
The pain was excruciating but I could still walk a bit with help.
Couldnt afford any medical intervention as I was in a foreign country so put up with it.
Once back in the UK I went to the hospital but they found nothing wrong.
Tried many medical services but nothing worked so I just put up with it.
I was still surfing and windsurfing but learned to ignore the pain until I couldn't straighten up or walk.
I tried all the various alternatives including faith healing, chiropractics, massage etc but none of them worked.
Eventually I found a Chinese acupuncturist who used around 100 needles connected to electro stimulation.
45 mins of that once a month kept me mobile, pain free and still windsurfing.
Her warning to me was "NO CURE, BE CAREFULL just NO PAIN"
Fast forward to the late 80s Now in Australia.
Still in permanent pain with back with sciatic pain often in right thigh.
I tried many acupuncturist practitioners but none worked. 
Eventually I went to the pain clinic where I had an xray. His comment was "When did you break your back?"
Well, that was news.
I had four facet blocks done which gave me 2 solid years pain free, as the pain returned I had four more done with the warning it wont last as long.
He was correct, 18 months and the pain returned, the third set lasted 6 months.
However those four years were absolute bliss.
I've been type 2 diabetic for 20 years so 3 years ago after all the advice from diabetic educators and dieticians was slowly making the problem worse I ignored them all along with the dire warnings of immanent death if I continued it I went on a full keto diet.
Well it worked and my blood sugars and pressures have dropped to a safe level and all bar the diabetic meds dropped but they have been halved.
The other benefits are I went from 275 lbs to 205 lbs (still dropping gently) with all those general health improvements but wonder of wonders I am more active and virtually pain free.
Yesterday I was moving 26ft lengths of steel square tube  2"x 0.1" thick with no help. I dont know how heavy each one was but it felt very heavy to me.
Not bad I think for 71 years old but even more incredible zero pain today.
I'm not stating you should follow a keto diet but it may be worth a try, we are all different.
BUT, I very much doubt if you will find a doctor or dietician advising it.
Do some serious research.


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## MontanaLon (Feb 20, 2020)

MontanaLon said:


> Rub some dirt on it!


I hope I didn't offend anyone with my answer. I too suffer from back issues. Mine are the result of a terrible car crash 23 years ago. Like getting cut out of the car terrible. Broke my spine and was pretty busted up. I healed but suffered from pain, doc said nothing would "cure" it. Chiropractor helped with electrotherapy. Pain is still there but I managed to do 16 years as a firefighter/EMT/Diver. It hurts every day and I really need to go see the chiropractor again. GP ordered an MRI 2 years ago and I haven't gotten it because even though it hurts, there is no way in hell I am doing $3000 out of pocket to get it and be told I need surgery and months off work and $4000 more out of pocket. I deal with it, after all it is no where close to the pain of a kidney stone. Plus, I could buy some pretty nice tooling with that money.


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 20, 2020)

i have a condition that renders my back useless for a week or better, every few years.
i believe it is a pinched nerve or something putting pressure on the sciatic in my lower back on my left hand side.
i was involved in a car crash when i was immortal and young that didn't show symptoms until my mid 40's
then one day i was lying in bed with my top twisted one direction, the bottom half, twisted the other.
when i went to straighten out to roll out of the rack, i physically couldn't move, but had the pleasure of the feeling of a hot knife being plunged into my lower back at the same time 
i went to my regular doctor, he said i have a bad back
i said no sh#t, what are we going to do about it???
he said here is a prescription for muscle relaxers and Vicodin, and a picture card of back strengthening exercises 
so i ate the dope and attempted to do exercises i would find difficult with my back in good shape
after toying with the quacks for about 3 months i grew tired of feeling bad and hurting all the time, 
i went to an acupuncturist (out of desperation).
i'll tell you, within 20 minutes this little Chinese lady had my standing erect once more, after a second treatment a few days later
i was pain free for over 2 years before i went and did some stupid stuff that messed me up again, (which she was able to fix again)

everyone is different, 
but if you have not tried acupuncture, it may help out
good luck


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## savarin (Feb 20, 2020)

I have found the most difficult problem with acupuncture is finding a practitioner who is actuall capable of carrying out the full process.
Most of them seem to stick a couple of needles in your back, make you listen to some so called relaxing music and thats it.
That Chinese lady I went to had needles in me fro the top of my head running down the body to the tips of my toes, every 5 mins she would turn up the stimulation a notch.
She was brilliant.
I havnt found another like her, mind you I'm not in that deep a pain nowadays.


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## Janderso (Feb 21, 2020)

Horses are scary = broken back = ouch!!
Car accident and locked up with hot knife = ouch!!
Pontiac man, your experience with the epidurals isn't confidence building. Not sure what anti inflammatory meds will do for  tight foraminal exits.
Montana dood, I'm not offended. When I got back from the doc last night I rubbed dirt on it = no help 
I'm off to a neurologist and back to the epidural place. maybe they can get my insurance to cover it this time?
My wife is turning 65 next month. She has been approved for a full blown knee replacement and I have this thing with the back.
We are both very active, healthy people. These things will not stop us, they may make us go around the curves a bit slower


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## Winegrower (Feb 21, 2020)

So many of us have back issues.   I too have had sciatica problems, could not bend over or lie down even.   I tried conventional medical resources with the results you would expect...

So somebody recommended "Feldenkrais" exercise.   I found an excellent local teacher, and started weekly group sessions and several initial private sessions.   I have to say, this was a fantastic recommendation.    Within a month or so, I was pain free, and weekly one hour sessions kept it up for years.   My instructor retired, about 4 months ago, and I see some of the issues returning.   Oh oh.

So I pass on this recommendation for Feldenkrais, who was an engineer in Israel, and developed his method to address his own problems.   The exercises are almost unbelievably simple and gentle, and in my experience extremely effective.


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## Janderso (Feb 21, 2020)

I'll look into it. Thanks


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## tjb (Feb 21, 2020)

Nutfarmer said:


> With a diagnosis like you have be very careful of chiropractors. Bending the spine just wrong with nerves that are pinched can cause permanent damage.



I can vouch for that!  I've had issues with upper back and neck for about ten years.  Totally different areas of pain from yours, but conceptually, it's pretty much all the same.  I ended up needing surgery twice, and in both instances they have been quite successful.  Had a C3-C4 fusion about ten years ago, and a C6-C7 fusion this past September (I think those are the right #'s).  Both times, I tried physical therapy, exercise, acupuncture, chiropractic - none of which worked.  Then finally had the surgery and don't regret it one bit.  On the first surgery, I went to a chiropractor on the recommendation of a friend, and I actually ended up in the hospital because of it.  Tried it again before the second surgery with a different chiropractor, and told him what happened first time - he was much gentler, but it didn't help.

Others have said - and this is so true - every case is different.  Based on how you've described your condition, I suspect sooner or later, you'll end up wanting the surgery.  Actually, I suspect you'll be begging for it.  My issues were caused by arthritic build-up and misalignment.  Yours is (at least partially) different.  One of my best friends is having surgery Monday morning because of 'central canal narrowing'.  There's a medical term for that, but I don't know what it is.  Simple reality is he fought it for years, but it's physiological.  No amount of exercise/adjustments/steroids is going to make that go away.  All it will do is continue to build up until you tell your wife like I told mine:  "Get me to a doctor or get me to an emergency room - I don't care which."  You'll discover - if you haven't already - that neurosurgeons for the most part are amazingly arrogant.  I don't gee-haw too well with folks like that, but if somebody is going to cut my neck or back open and start fiddling around with bones and nerves, I want him/her to be totally CONFIDANT that they can do it.  In my case, I sincerely doubt that either surgeon I had would fit in well with the warm, friendly environment here at HM.  But they knew what they were doing, and they did it well.  My first experience involved severe pain down my neck, into my right arm, and a tingling and numbness in my right pinky and ring finger.  The good doctor advised me quite candidly, "You can try this; you can try that; you can do nothing; but here's the bottom line.  You have a pinched nerve because of arthritis and misalignment of vertebrae and it will only get worse.  Do nothing, and in  few more years, you could end up with partial or total paralysis in those fingers.  Take your pick."  Not exactly a compassionate bedside manner, but he was right.  The second surgeon was even more blunt:  "I can make the pain go away, but only with surgery.  If you don't want it, try the other stuff."  I did.  But he was right, too.

Bottom line:  Find a surgeon who is highly recommended, and listen to him/her.  Nothing wrong with trying the alternatives, but if nothing helps, don't wait too long before at least consulting a surgeon.  Some things are irreversible.

Regards,
Terry


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## Janderso (Feb 21, 2020)

Thank you Terry,
If I do go the surgery route, I would go down to the Spine specialists in San Francisco. It's a real PITA to go down there. The traffic is a nightmare.
I have good days and bad. I haven't been able to go on my daily walks due to a shortage of staffing this week. Walking helps me.
One of the things that really aggravates my condition is standing for long periods. Running a lathe, a milling machine or welding can make for a tough time.


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## tjb (Feb 21, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Thank you Terry,
> If I do go the surgery route, I would go down to the Spine specialists in San Francisco. It's a real PITA to go down there. The traffic is a nightmare.
> I have good days and bad. I haven't been able to go on my daily walks due to a shortage of staffing this week. Walking helps me.
> One of the things that really aggravates my condition is standing for long periods. Running a lathe, a milling machine or welding can make for a tough time.


On second thought, if you must go to San Francisco for the surgery...  Decisions, decisions!

I had a similar problem with standing in the shop for long periods.  I have two stools down there, but without back support, sitting was, in some ways for me, worse than standing.  I found a nice swivel stool with back support that helped tremendously.  A little pricey, but what a relief it has been.  Don't know if that would help you any, but if you're interested, I'll try to find a link to the one I got.

Hang in there.


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## Janderso (Feb 21, 2020)

I was watching a Youtube this morning, "Old Iron Lover", he uses a stool at his South Bend. First time I have seen that.


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## tjb (Feb 21, 2020)

Janderso said:


> I was watching a Youtube this morning, "Old Iron Lover", he uses a stool at his South Bend. First time I have seen that.


I use mine regularly if it's a time-consuming job on either the lathe or the mill.  It helps.

Regards,
Terry


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## 682bear (Feb 22, 2020)

Be very careful with the epidurals/cortisone/steroid injections... they will quickly leach calcium from your bones, leaving them soft and easily broken... My father is currently taking injections for osteoporosis after taking corticosteroid injections for back issues.

-Bear


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## tjb (Feb 22, 2020)

682bear said:


> Be very careful with the epidurals/cortisone/steroid injections... they will quickly leach calcium from your bones, leaving them soft and easily broken... My father is currently taking injections for osteoporosis after taking corticosteroid injections for back issues.
> 
> -Bear


Didn't know that.  I'll file that one away for future reference that I hope I never need.  Thanks for sharing.

Regards,
Terry


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## Janderso (Feb 22, 2020)

I didn’t know that.


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## Janderso (Feb 22, 2020)

I remember when I was a kid, they gave me steroids during allergy season.
Prednisone, 5-10 ml. Per day.
I would get asthma during springtime
That was in the sixties.


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## mikey (Feb 22, 2020)

Most responsible neurosurgeons will try steroid injections once and see. Statistically, you have a 50:50 chance it will work and if it does, the chances of it lasting more than a month are slim. He may try another shot but if that does not provide long term relief then that doc will not give another shot. Two injections will not leach bones or cause fractures.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 23, 2020)

Janderso said:


> I was watching a Youtube this morning, "Old Iron Lover", he uses a stool at his South Bend. First time I have seen that.



I fell in love with tall stools years ago, and always try to build my workbenches a a height that lets me use one. The perfect stool hits right where your leg turns to butt. At the right height a stool lets me alternate between standing, leaning on the stool (half sitting / half standing) and sitting when I'm working at a bench for an extended period of time, which really saves my back.


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