# I am Getting Burned Out at Work



## erikmannie

As of Spring 2021, I had amassed $70K in consumer debt (all tools/tools that I still have/tools that I plan to use the rest of my life).

I put a purchasing freeze in place at that time, which was a tremendous relief to my wife. I set about working 65-77 hours every week, and last Saturday night I finally ran myself into the ground, coming down with a *nasty* flu bug which has caused me to miss 2 days of work and counting.

I had hoped to work these long hours all through 2022 and into 2023, but it looks like I am not capable of this at 55 years old and 80 lbs. overweight. I had been already off of drugs & alcohol for years. I got off of nicotine & caffeine in December 2021 specifically for the purpose of optimizing my endurance (for working long hours).

Starting in July 2021, I have been paying $220 every 2 weeks for 2 hours of “body work”, where the massage therapist straightens out my spine, etc. and gets the knots out of my neck. There is also some stretching in these visits.

The $70K debt at somewhat of a high interest rate (average 15-20%) has been paid down to $30K & refinanced to much lower interest rates (averaging about 5%).

I had hoped to pay off all the debt & buy $30K more in tools in October of this year, but it looks like reality has slapped me in the face.


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## eugene13

Retire


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## erikmannie

The main problem is that I never get any shop time! I only have off Sundays, and half of those Sundays are the “body work” days which is an hour and fifteen minute drive *each way*.

The remaining 2 days off per month, I get very little to no shop time at all. I have projects that I have been working on for almost 4 years that I am starting to wonder will ever be finished.

I do have some vacation time coming up, and 6 days of that will be spent out of town with family (which is quality time, to be sure).

My wife, who is quite level-headed, thinks that I should just slow my pace of acquiring tools because my job would always be at least 50 hours/week, and more likely closer to 57 hours/week M-F.

I think that the thing of working 10-16 hours every Saturday is not sustainable.


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## erikmannie

eugene13 said:


> Retire



I qualify to retire with a full pension now, but I would *not* be able to live off of this pension with the consumer debts + mortgage that I have.

Once I retire, I would have no chance of buying a knee mill or a dedicated FCAW wire feed welder or a dedicated spool gun wire feed welder.


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## pontiac428

My wife has an interesting way at looking at debt.  She asks me, will your future self be okay with your present self running up debt against your future earning potential?  Often times, my future self would be ****** off to be paying something down for the long haul.  Sometimes, yeah, my future self would be okay with that.  It all depends, but the perspective is worthwhile.  Now I do everything in cash/debit.  This year's future self isn't upset with last year's spending at all.  I'm much better off managing cash than managing debt.  It simplifies things.  I am still saving for a 16x40, but the Atlas will do for now.  You're welcome, future self.


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## erikmannie

pontiac428 said:


> My wife has an interesting way at looking at debt.  She asks me, will your future self be okay with your present self running up debt against your future earning potential?  Often times, my future self would be ****** off to be paying something down for the long haul.  Sometimes, yeah, my future self would be okay with that.  It all depends, but the perspective is worthwhile.  Now I do everything in cash/debit.  This year's future self isn't upset with last year's spending at all.  I'm much better off managing cash than managing debt.  It simplifies things.  I am still saving for a 16x40, but the Atlas will do for now.  You're welcome, future self.



You’re doing it the right way with the cash purchases, especially if you already have a lathe.

I bought so many tools in order to keep our finances “against the ropes” so that my wife wouldn’t be able to remodel the kitchen/re-landscape the yard/buy a new car, etc., all things which she has talked about. None of those things help with metalworking.

I have told her that she can buy one last car after I get a knee mill, 2 more wire feed welders & 1 more welding cart, but it is a no on the kitchen remodel & fresh landscaping.


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## pontiac428

Actually, now that you mention it, the real reason I don't have a 16x40 _is_ new landscaping... was $20 grand, wife asked me to pay for it out of my shop savings account (was $15k at the time, with $5k in checking, all gone now...).  Two years of saving hard, gone like that!  You're on to something with diverting those better homes and gardens funds into the shop!


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## erikmannie

I would feel really stupid if I dropped dead before I retired, never having had a chance to be a retired guy in the shop.


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## erikmannie

pontiac428 said:


> Actually, now that you mention it, the real reason I don't have a 16x40 _is_ new landscaping... was $20 grand, wife asked me to pay for it out of my shop savings account (was $15k at the time, with $5k in checking, all gone now...).  Two years of saving hard, gone like that!  You're on to something with diverting those better homes and gardens funds into the shop!



In a zero sum game, the more aggressive person gets their way, and men are naturally more aggressive than women. Did I ever mention that I am very cynical?

Of course, a gentleman such as yourself takes care of his lady. I think that it is you that is on to something.

As everybody has, I have seen members of both sexes wasting a lot of money on unconstructive things. I am so paranoid about the economic future that I only want to spend money on (“invest in”) durable goods (for example, tools and hardware).


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## ddickey

You can write off tools if you have a side gig.


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## Brento

What work do you do that you need so many tools?  Ive got no problem with it bc i have done the same thing. Although i dont have 70k built up. But i have 5k that i cant get paid off bc i keep finding good stuff to buy. Just today i spent 50$ plus shipping for a facebook buy. It was a helicoil set from 2-56 to atleast 10-32 with all of the tools as far as i could see. Not 100% on the taps. I then saw some bigger inserts so i am sure there are bigger ones as well.


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## mmcmdl

At the age of 55 I lost my job at Unilever due to a plant shut down . 15 years of 7 nights a week , 12 or 16 hrs every night . OT out the butt and they always wanted more . I enjoyed this job and made some very good money . I have not been in any kind of debt since either . Paid my 2 homes off as well as my 45 acre camp in NY . Paid for my 3 kiddies college tuitions ( all 4 years ) also . I never missed their sports tournaments either being local or half way across the country . I could not do it now I know . I have the oppurtunity , but it's just not for me at this age .

When I started at Lever my shop was put on hold . Why work at home for nothing and turn down OT and 2X on Sundays ? Made no sense to do so . I had a great machine shop at my disposal in at work , all tooling was free , no mess at home etc . I've slept on many a baseball benches , basketball bleachers and soccer fields in my lifetime as well as many other worsery places !   It was fun at the time as I always had something to look forward to when I did finally use vacation time . I guess my question would be to anyone .......................................why in the heck would anyone want to work 20-30 hrs a week just to do this hobby ? 70 G is not a hobby , at least not for me . The hours also put me in the hospital for over a week one time . Working all the hours with pnuemonia . So yeah , your body wears out without the neccesary breaks in routine . I wish you the best Erik , but balance everything out to your needs vs. wants .


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## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> You can write off tools if you have a side gig.



I wouldn’t have any time to do any outside work until after I am retired. At that time, I would be interested in selling pipe welding coupons & giving one-on-one welding or machining lessons to adults.

I work for UPS, & the company is very good at sapping nearly all of their full time employee’s time & energy. The best that I would ever be able to do before I retire is work about 55 hours M-F, rest/errands/family catch up on Saturday, and finally a glorious *hobby-only* shop day on Sunday.


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## erikmannie

mmcmdl said:


> At the age of 55 I lost my job at Unilever due to a plant shut down . 15 years of 7 nights a week , 12 or 16 hrs every night . OT out the butt and they always wanted more . I enjoyed this job and made some very good money . I have not been in any kind of debt since either . Paid my 2 homes off as well as my 45 acre camp in NY . Paid for my 3 kiddies college tuitions ( all 4 years ) also . I never missed their sports tournaments either being local or half way across the country . I could not do it now I know . I have the oppurtunity , but it's just not for me at this age .
> 
> When I started at Lever my shop was put on hold . Why work at home for nothing and turn down OT and 2X on Sundays ? Made no sense to do so . I had a great machine shop at my disposal in at work , all tooling was free , no mess at home etc . I've slept on many a baseball benches , basketball bleachers and soccer fields in my lifetime as well as many other worsery places !   It was fun at the time as I always had something to look forward to when I did finally use vacation time . I guess my question would be to anyone .......................................why in the heck would anyone want to work 20-30 hrs a week just to do this hobby ? 70 G is not a hobby , at least not for me . The hours also put me in the hospital for over a week one time . Working all the hours with pnuemonia . So yeah , your body wears out without the neccesary breaks in routine . I wish you the best Erik , but balance everything out to your needs vs. wants .



Wow, it sounds like you put in an extremely large amount of hours over a long period of time! Was that a grind or what?! You sure did right by your family, especially with supporting the kids’ educations.

Reality has a way of letting you know that you are out of balance.

Effective immediately, I will be resigning from my first shift on Saturdays.

My second shift on Saturdays would have nobody to fill in, but I will initiate that conversation. My replacement would end up in the same time-crunch predicament that I am in now. I think people might need a 2-day weekend! All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.





__





						All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## jwmay

I've spent considerably more on pretty house things than on tools. But I find that these things are worth it. My wife does not accompany me to the shop, and has zero appreciation for it. But we both get great satisfaction from sipping coffee on the patio, surrounded by beautiful flowers and landscape. We get great satisfaction from the new TV room when we have the time to watch a movie together.  And I never tire of hearing her gush about what a lovely home and life we've built for ourselves.  But to your point, I hate working for a living too. I'd do just about anything to retire earlier than 65, or not be mandated a 60 hour work schedule.  Including selling off everything I owed money on, and starting over at zero. Best of luck on your schedule. You have many options to choose from. So there's at least that to be thankful for.


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## Asm109

Your wife must be much more understanding than mine. If I pegged the family finances 100% to my toys and told her Nothing for you and you are gonna like it. I would be sleeping outdoors and she would be taking half of everything I have.


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## matthewsx

Take care of yourself first, then family, then work. At least that's how I do it.

However, my hobbies are just that. I couldn't put them before fixing up the home or keeping my wife happy in any other way. Maybe it makes a difference that she earned most of what's in our retirement fund but I suspect it would be the same either way.

You already have some great tools, let the rest come to you in good time. Spend quality time in your shop AND with your family, I don't think you'll regret putting off buying the big mill if it means you'll be able to retire without debt. A used machine can do everything a new one can and you've already got the tools to repair just about anything.

Good luck getting your whole Saturday back, we all need breaks every day and week. I'm just a year ahead of you and I can assure you that the 30lbs I've lost in the past few years have made my life a whole lot better. 

John


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## Watchwatch

Houses are a never ending money pit. Worse than tools. The ole lady will never be happy with the house if she spends her days watching HGTV. Accept that. 

Health first. Lose that weight. It’s easy if you cut the carbs.

Spend just enough on the house to keep her feel like it’s improving.

55hrs a week with 2 days off a week is my cutoff. Anymore than that and life gets miserable if that’s the normal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JimDawson

You painted yourself into a bit of a corner there.  At 55 you are still young enough to get out, but it's going to take a little work.  First you need to pay off that final $30K as fast as possible, and hopefully you have no other debt.  Doing a physically demanding job at 55 is not good, at 55 you should be in a supervisor/manager role, or get into another line of work that is not so physically taxing.  I'm 73 now and trying to retire, but by the time I was 55 my job was pretty much traveling around the world telling customers how to fix their machines, and writing industrial software.  Neither of which was physically demanding, but sometimes the hours were long, although I did get my excersize walking through a lot of airports.  But I left the hard physical work to the young guys.

The shop tools should be paying for themselves, mine have, many times over.  I bought mine as I needed them for projects.  I have a theory that every project needs a new tool, it doesn't matter if the tool has anything to do with the project.  While I have either owned or had machine tools available to me for most of my adult life.  I actually owned a commercial machine shop back in the 70's and sold it, but I really started again from zero about 30 years ago when I had a project to do.  Everything in my equipment list was purchased in the last 30 years.  I never borrowed a dime to buy any of it, if I couldn't pay cash for it, I didn't buy it.  Some of the equipment was purchased just because it was too good of a deal to pass up.  If I bought it, I would figure out how it was going to pay for itself.

I really hate machining, but sometimes you have to make chips to do a project, makes no difference if you are fixing your own lawnmower or doing a job for a customer.  What I really do is provide solutions to problems, the machine tools are just there to further that end if I need them.  The more tools you have in the tool box, the more stuff you can do.  Once people know you're out there and learn what you can do then they will come to you and you can putter around in the shop and get paid for it.  I mentioned above that I was trying to retire, I'm finding that a bit difficult because my pesky customers keep wanting stuff, and up side is that they are making me offers that I can't refuse.  But I have cut back to about 6 hrs per day, I need to get my afternoon nap in.

So the bottom line is, get well soon, get out of debt, put some money away to grab that good deal when it comes along, and enjoy making money in your shop.


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## erikmannie

Thanks to everybody for the constructive comments. There is almost nothing physically demanding about my M-F work. I had to do absolutely punishing UPS routes for 26 years before I got the only good *absolutely CAKE* UPS route in our center.

The only other debt is the mortgage at 3.53% APR, the payment for which is much less than we would be paying for rent.

Now I am remembering that my other houses were an extreme money pit as well as a time suck. There is nothing I enjoy about working on a house or in a yard. I only enjoy machining & welding.

I guess I will be making my contribution to The Great Resignation by leaving my beloved Saturday crew. What a fantastic group of guys they are! The 2 supervisors must have always known that we were giving up half our weekend to go in, because the supervisors were *always* extra kind & cooperative. It is rare to hear UPS hourlies describe UPS management as such.


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## erikmannie

I had always pictured that my retirement would be spent working on whatever projects I chose. I would hate to think that I might have to stress out on meeting other people’s deadlines after I retire.

Like I said, though, cranking out (and recycling!) pipe welding coupons or one-on-one welding or machining lessons for adults sounds appealing.


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## jwmay

erikmannie said:


> There is nothing I enjoy about working on a house or in a yard.


Same here! Did I say working? I didn't say working on it. I pay someone else to do that. I tried it before. That sucked. Not just like a little bit either. It was 9 months of misery. Geez, I used to WISH I had overtime to get away from that disaster. No. Buy less tools, pay someone else to do the renovating. Lol.


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## erikmannie

jwmay said:


> Same here! Did I say working? I didn't say working on it. I pay someone else to do that. I tried it before. That sucked. Not just like a little bit either. It was 9 months of misery. Geez, I used to WISH I had overtime to get away from that disaster. No. Buy less tools, pay someone else to do the renovating. Lol.



Hear, hear!


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## matthewsx

I think you’re making the right decision, you will be able to still pay down the debt without killing yourself and having quality shop time will be worth it.

Maybe the boss can work it out so you can fill in for the new Saturday driver on occasion, might work out well for everyone.

Definitely think about what Jim said, make the machines work for you. For sure there are welding and fabrication jobs out there that will pay off the tools quicker. You probably already know who needs your skills from the packages you deliver….

And, we all enjoy the pictures you post from your route, that’s some beautiful country  

John


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## matthewsx

Wife and I just finished painting, all I want from paint is for it to stick to the walls. But, it does look a lot better now and she is happy….


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## erikmannie

@matthewsx 

The Saturday UPS routes are way too brutal for somebody at my age & weight. I work in the office on Saturday afternoons.


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## matthewsx

erikmannie said:


> @matthewsx
> 
> The Saturday UPS routes are way too brutal for somebody at my age & weight. I work in the office on Saturday afternoons.


Can’t change your age….


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## erikmannie

matthewsx said:


> Wife and I just finished painting, all I want from paint is for it to stick to the walls. But, it does look a lot better now and she is happy….
> 
> View attachment 395662



Your wife looks really fulfilled! The paint work on the walls looks professionally executed.


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## MikeInOr

Shopping / purchasing stuff is a compulsive behavior that many people have trouble with.  It is a behavior that our world in the United States not only condones and encourages our whole economy depends on this behavior.  It is a behavior that is encouraged by our government and catered to by the whole consumer goods industry as well as the whole credit industry.  (Sorry if I am sounding like a communist)

Personally not being able to pay off the credit cards in the same month I charge them up is a big enough deterrent to keep me in check, usually.  I believe this was a value instilled in me by my very conservative parents that is very contrary to my innate nature.  My biggest weakness is not being able to pass up a deal on some great used tool or piece of machinery that I know will rarely (if ever) come along again... even if I don't really need the tool or machine the compulsion it to purchase it.

Is it possible that you have a problem with purchasing stuff you really don't need?  Of the $70K worth of stuff how much of it do you actually need?  Unfortunately in our hobby the biggest fanciest mill or lathe is COMPLETELY USELESS unless we also spend large amounts of money on tooling and accessories that make our machinery investment useful.

I have been wanting a rotary table for many years.  There are tons of projects I could do with a rotary table that I can't do now.  Do I actually need / want to do those types of projects???  Doesn't matter, when the right one comes up on CraigsList I will buy it whether I truly need it or not.  "Since I got a great deal on it I can always sell it for what I bought it for if not more"... is my way of enabling myself.


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## erikmannie

@MikeInOr 

Of that $70K in tool purchases, I need 0% of the items.


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## Dhal22

erikmannie said:


> As of Spring 2021, I had amassed $70K in consumer debt (all tools/tools that I still have/tools that I plan to use the rest of my life).
> 
> I put a purchasing freeze in place at that time, which was a tremendous relief to my wife. I set about working 65-77 hours every week, and last Saturday night I finally ran myself into the ground, coming down with a *nasty* flu bug which has caused me to miss 2 days of work and counting.
> 
> I had hoped to work these long hours all through 2022 and into 2023, but it looks like I am not capable of this at 55 years old and 80 lbs. overweight. I had been already off of drugs & alcohol for years. I got off of nicotine & caffeine in December 2021 specifically for the purpose of optimizing my endurance (for working long hours).
> 
> Starting in July 2021, I have been paying $220 every 2 weeks for 2 hours of “body work”, where the massage therapist straightens out my spine, etc. and gets the knots out of my neck. There is also some stretching in these visits.
> 
> The $70K debt at somewhat of a high interest rate (average 15-20%) has been paid down to $30K & refinanced to much lower interest rates (averaging about 5%).
> 
> I had hoped to pay off all the debt & buy $30K more in tools in October of this year, but it looks like reality has slapped me in the face.




I'm 55 and have used a personal trainer since my late 40's.  I used to be 200lbs (6'2"), now 185 but way more muscle and definition.   Weight lifting,  stretching,  yoga,  all is wonderful.   And her healthy eating lifestyle............

It has become my 4 times a week mental oasis; work hard,  feel the burn all day, great habit to form.


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## mmcmdl

erikmannie said:


> Of that $70K in tool purchases, I need 0% of the items.


Houston , we have a problem !  

Personally speaking , my hobby machine shop supports all of my other hobbies which make me a few bucks over the year . Machining was my living until I went more into the mechanics of production machines . Its nice for a company to find someone who troubleshoots equipment but also has the skills needed to make parts to fix the problems on sight . Like many others on here , I've scaled down , wayyyyyyyy down over the years . My companies in the past could not wait on cheap parts off a slow boat from Chiana or wherever else these low cost providers were located . This goes back to the bean counters and watchdogs who save the company $$$$ on paper . Look , I saved you $100 bucks on this part ! Meanwhile , the line is down for a month .  I always tell them to show me the money they saved the company , put it on the desk in front of me . Machining has become a global thing over the past 20 years FWIW . If I needed 100 parts or so , I could source providers world wide these days , not so 30-40 years ago . I'm not sure just why our so called hobby machinists think they need all these brand new expensive machines to do G Job type work . Great if it makes you money , but , then it's not a hobby any more , rather a second or third job . 99.9% of the time , it's not the machine that makes the part , it's the guy operating the machine .

As far as machines go ? Gimme some old iron over these imported machines any day of the week . I considered the ShopFox lathe a paperweight POS . Just my opinion , but coming from a machinist of 44 years . I would rather waste my time rebuilding and using older top quality machines of any kind , hence my hobby in the older IHs, Cubs and Deere tractors . Long winded post as always , but really , why all these new expensive machines and tooling when " 0% " are needed ?


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## mmcmdl

JimDawson said:


> I really hate machining, but sometimes you have to make chips to do a project, makes no difference if you are fixing your own lawnmower or doing a job for a customer. What I really do is provide solutions to problems, the machine tools are just there to further that end if I need them. The more tools you have in the tool box, the more stuff you can do. Once people know you're out there and learn what you can do then they will come to you and you can putter around in the shop and get paid for it.


This sums it up . /\/\ Well put Jim .


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## erikmannie

mmcmdl said:


> …, but really , why all these new expensive machines and tooling when " 0% " are needed ?…



Maybe I was taking the word “needed” too literally, as in “One only needs food, water, air and shelter”.

For a one- or two- person welding & machining shop (be it hobby or commercial), I would need at least 75% of the equipment to do what I want to do, which is: GTAW, GMAW, SMAW, OAW, FCAW, oxyacetylene brazing & cutting, GMAW aluminum, milling machine skills, lathe skills and (e-)bicycle repair.

I am more interested in the crafting process than I am in knocking out a part, so this is why I stray away from doing work for other people. I would much prefer to geek out on the work process than the work itself.

I started working when I was 12 years old, & I am planning on staying in the workforce until I turn 65. I was hoping to get at least 10 years on the back end to finally work on my own stuff.

Isn’t it the case with most *hobbies* that one is not expected to get the equipment to pay for itself? I was hoping that hobby time is a chance to be free of practicality and/or pragmatism.


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## mmcmdl

Ahh...........................................so bicycle repair is the hobby , and the welding and machine skills support this . Nothing wrong with that . Just learn to keep things in check would be my answer . Deep debt is something I shun , although if something interesting comes along , I'm on it as always .  Your hours and my hours were pretty much the same . If I was awake , I was working . I went from 2X to 1X at the Fortune 500 spice maker right down the road . Nice place , but at half of what I made didn't and wouldn't cut it . 6 months I was G O N E . If the pay was close , I would still be there . Now , they can't find anyone to do the work , go figure . 

I'm off to visit work in a minute , have some business to catch up on . I hope I didn't miss the latest boat .


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## WobblyHand

erikmannie said:


> Isn’t it the case with most *hobbies* that one is not expected to get the equipment to pay for itself? I was hoping that hobby time is a chance to be free of practicality and/or pragmatism.


Yes, this is true.  But hobbies shouldn't drive one close to the edge of financial trouble either.  Make sure you have enough cushion for things that may go wrong in life, and for you and your spouse to live fulfilling lives.  Won't tell you how to allocate your home budget, but a happy home does involve some compromise.  From the limited perspective you have given us, it seems you are getting a huge share of the pie.  

To make it more explicit, pay down your debt.  It is making you have to do things that aren't good for your health.  Debt is restricting your choices you can make in life.  Get rid of that debt, it will free you.  Try to live within your means, if you can't afford it, don't buy it.  Save.  Then buy stuff, if it is within your budget.  This will reduce a lot of your stress in life.


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## Beckerkumm

Credit card debt is slow agonizing death and should only be used to avoid immediate death.  If you need to sell stuff to get out of debt, do it.  There are few businesses profitable enough to survive credit card interest charges.  Dave


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## woodchucker

I'm of the opinion, that my hobby stuff is paid for in cash. Period. My house is paid for, my cars, I owe nothing. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it.  I do not like debt. The NY Giants went to PSLs Private Seat License.. 10k for the privilege, then they raised the price of their tkts by $25 or $40, can't remember, and made you purchase parking passes (at a higher rate then the past) and ahead of time including the pre-season which I don't go to.

I bailed. I could not see taking on that debt.. since 64 my dad had the tkts, and when he died in 82 I took them over. It broke my heart to have to let them go. But debt is a losing proposition. Glad I didn't buy them, guys that own them hate it now, they are worthless. 

A hobby should be fun, not only do you have the machine costs, but the raw materials are $$$$$... Even woodworking right now, the wood is in the stratosphere. Even the guys that mill and sell wood here are killing me in prices. I need wood for my son and DIL sideboard and one of my regulars wanted $14 a board foot, when I was paying $4 a board foot 2 years ago.  It's not that his prices went up, it's that he can ask because the other prices went up.


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## macardoso

Not criticizing, but wanted to share my outlook. Wife and I both have career jobs and make decent money. We are very frugal regardless and a vast majority goes into retirement and mid-term investments. We discuss our finances in the entirety and have planned our house and retirement expenses first and foremost. We still drive 2003 cars for gosh-sakes!

My hobbies are paid for with the pennies I find between the couch cushions! Not actually, but I am always shopping for only the best deals and buy used. House, family, retirement, investments, and everything else always come first. In the high spending years (machine purchases or big projects) I don't think I've spent over $2k, and usually much much less than that. Always cash. I never hold a credit card balance and I'm scared to death of doing so. I don't particularly enjoy pitching to my wife why I want a new mill, robot, etc. for the basement, but it is much better that we communicate before I show up with one. She's fairly supportive, and even more than money, we worry about not accumulating too much junk. If something comes into the shop, I try to find an equal amount of stuff to leave.

I'd look at cutting off the spending for now and work what you can to get rid of the debt. Once you're in the clear, maybe find a sustainable way to enjoy your hobbies that doesn't sacrifice your financial situation. Just my opinion.

EDIT: The one *fun* part is if I make any money doing my hobbies, I throw all of the profit into the shop fund. Makes little side gigs extra exciting.


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## rabler

erikmannie said:


> I am more interested in the crafting process than I am in knocking out a part, so this is why I stray away from doing work for other people. I would much prefer to geek out on the work process than the work itself.
> 
> I started working when I was 12 years old, & I am planning on staying in the workforce until I turn 65. I was hoping to get at least 10 years on the back end to finally work on my own stuff.
> 
> Isn’t it the case with most *hobbies* that one is not expected to get the equipment to pay for itself? I was hoping that hobby time is a chance to be free of practicality and/or pragmatism.


That is certainly where my interest are.  I really don't expect this make me a single penny.  I'm delighted if I can make a part for around the house that would have otherwise cost $10.   I was working fairly hard myself, living apart from my wife to do so, etc.  Then cancer struck.  We looked at our budget and savings, and I was able to retire after a bit more than a year.  Essentially I had a year of sick leave and vacation, used that up and retired.  Sure, I live in a manufactured home instead of something that we would have built, but that also meant I can afford the 2200 sq ft shop that the crew is out there building right now, cash, after selling off the previous property.   And we have the property to support my wife's hobby, horses and gardening.  I'm only 58, been retired 2.5 years, and am VERY glad my wife and I were able to make that work.

Plan for the future, but remember that if you get run over by a bus tomorrow,  you need to have enjoyed today too.


----------



## Aaron_W

You are kind of unusual in that it seems most people just use their tools as a means to an end, to make something and the tools are secondary. In your case what you make is not the end goal you are far more interested in the process.

I get that, I'm not as extreme in that view as you are but I got into machining to make stuff and along the way have found learning to use the machines is almost as big a part of it as what I make. I don't need a shaper, or horizontal mill, most of their uses can be done using other tools but I like to learn how to use the different machines and I like having the options. Even having these machines I'm still likely to use alternate methods just for the experience. I certainly don't need all the little lathes I've acquired, but I like using different ones, seeing their advantages or limitations, it actually helps me long term in deciding what features matter to me. 

I haven't just built a shop in my basement, I've built a DIY shop class for my personal use. I like learning things even if I will only use that technique one time to decide, that there are better ways to do it. While I do enjoy making things and that is the primary reason I have the shop, I can happily spend hours just tinkering with the machines and making nothing. I've had most of them apart at some point and have learned a lot about how they work and gained a lot more confidence with them as a result.


I've been there on the working to pay off the debt, and didn't like it. I had a job that was in theory 9-5 5 days a week, but that is because the government is stuck in the 1940s and hates the idea of paying people to sit round the clock to be ready to respond to an emergency, so instead it pays for a lot of 2 hour call backs for 30 minutes of work and massive amounts of overtime. That theoretically 40 hour a week job in a typical year averaged closer to 60 hours a week, with much of it highly compressed into 80-112 hour weeks during the summer and 40 in the winter. 

I quickly found OT to be a fickle and an unreliable paycheck, too many things could interfere, slow seasons, bad timing, injury, and exhaustion. Having to work the OT because you need the money also interferes with the ability to have any kind of normal home life. It was so nice when I could just tell my boss, I don't care that it is July and half the state is on fire, I'm using my leave and going on vacation with my family. 
That only happened after I learned to be patient and earn the money before spending it. If I failed to get earn enough money then it just put the purchase off further, rather than having the stress of another bill to pay. It also makes working for the money more enjoyable as I can look forward to buying something I want when I'm done instead of just writing a check to pay down a bill when I get paid. Working for a check that is already spent is a real drag.


I think most DIY hobbies tend to attract people who are frugal in their spending. For many saving money is what brought them to DIY stuff in the first place. As a result you get a lot of posts about never having any debt, stuff all your loose change into savings, buy an old machine and fix it up rather than buying new etc. I happen to agree with most of this so not saying it is bad advice, but it is not "normal".

You have spent a lot of money on your hobby, with the machines and classes, but that is your main expense in life. As I recall you own one older vehicle which you share with your wife, you own your home, you don't take expensive vacations (except for your various welding, bicycle repair etc schools) and you don't seem to spend much money beyond your basic living expenses. 

$70,000 on your shop seems crazy, but lots of people spend that for a new 4x4 diesel crew cab pickup that they "need" to drive their kid to school 2 miles away, a truck that never leaves the pavement, drives in the snow or tows anything. With a 4-1/2 foot bed they also can't haul anything bigger than a large bag of dog food. Personally when I see $70,000 I think  but spending that on a shop seems a much better use of the money than on truck that a used Toyota Corolla can do what is needed better for 1/10 the price.    

They say the average American family has $155,000 in debt, so while I'm in the keep debt as low as possible camp, you are still below average on the whole. You are realizing that you can't keep going at the rate you have been, or you will not be around to enjoy your shop. Maybe getting more time in your shop will also help control the spending. I find when I don't get a lot of time in the shop I tend to buy more stuff for the shop as kind of a surrogate to shop time. If I'm actually busy working in the shop then I'm too busy to shop for nice to have things.

I've not got a lot of room to talk about slowing down and enjoying life. I theoretically retired 4 years ago but when you add up the hours I've worked since retiring it is close to 2-1/2 years of full time work.


Anyway, you need to take care of yourself, you have built a nice shop and you need to be around to enjoy it.


----------



## Aaron_W

Oh one more thing, make sure your wife is really ok with the situation, and let her get some of the things she needs to be happy even if that means putting some of your stuff off. Last thing you want is to have her kill you in your sleep or worse take half your shop. Enough with the Dr Phil stuff but I've seen to many people end up losing the ability to retire before they drop dead over one or more failed marriages. You think you have debt with your shop...


----------



## wachuko

Aaron_W said:


> I can happily spend hours just tinkering with the machines and making nothing.





Aaron_W said:


> Anyway, you need to take care of yourself, you have built a nice shop and you need to be around to enjoy it.



Took the words right out of my keyboard...


----------



## erikmannie

@Aaron_W 

The cost of a divorce would torpedo any idea of spending my golden years playing in a hobby shop. I would have to change my hobby to sitting in a La-Z-Boy watching TV.


----------



## erikmannie

I have always wanted to ask people who wisely invest money a question: when and how do you see that money being spent?

I often advise my 21-year-old son to start a 401k. I can see that he will need a lot of revenue to live in the year 2070 and beyond.

Many people will usually: shop around for a deal, buy used instead of new, invest money early & often into a retirement fund, save instead of spend, work long OT hours, etc. I see the practicality, but when & how do these savings/investment earnings ever get spent?

Are we trying to leave money to our kids? Are we trying to make sure that we don’t spend our golden years in poverty?

Or is there a luxurious world cruise that awaits us? Take all the kids & grandkids to Italy?

Do a lot of people practice pragmatism, in part for the sake of knowing that they are making responsible choices?

I had a best friend in high school who was always saving & waiting to enjoy things in the future. He looked to have a very bright future, indeed, until he was killed at age 19 in a car crash. I know that this makes the case for safe driving (his friend, the driver, fell asleep at the wheel), but it sort of showed me at a young age that you might want to get while the getting is good because your life can be ended at any time.

I would just feel really disappointed if I saved up a few million dollars, and then died before I could *enjoy* spending every penny of it.

On the other hand, there is the guy who spends his whole life planning to die with a dollar in his pocket, and then lives to be 100.


----------



## macardoso

erikmannie said:


> I have always wanted to ask people who wisely invest money a question: when and how do you see that money being spent?
> 
> I often advise my 21-year-old son to start a 401k. I can see that he will need a lot of revenue to live in the year 2070 and beyond.
> 
> Many people will usually: shop around for a deal, buy used instead of new, invest money early & often into a retirement fund, save instead of spend, work long OT hours, etc. I see the practicality, but when & how do these savings/investment earnings ever get spent?
> 
> Are we trying to leave money to our kids? Are we trying to make sure that we don’t spend our golden years in poverty?
> 
> Or is there a luxurious world cruise that awaits us? Take all the kids & grandkids to Italy?
> 
> Do a lot of people practice pragmatism, in part for the sake of knowing that they are making responsible choices?
> 
> I had a best friend in high school who was always saving & waiting to enjoy things in the future. He looked to have a very bright future, indeed, until he was killed at age 19 in a car crash. I know that this makes the case for safe driving (his friend, the driver, fell asleep at the wheel), but it sort of showed me at a young age that you might want to get while the getting is good because your life can be ended at any time.
> 
> I would just feel really disappointed if I saved up a few million dollars, and then died before I could *enjoy* spending every penny of it.
> 
> On the other hand, there is the guy who spends his whole life planning to die with a dollar in his pocket, and then lives to be 100.



This is just a personal answer. I think everyone has different opinions on this topic.

I'm 28 right now, married, recently bought a house, looking at kids on the horizon. I have been given the privilege of opportunity and education and the chance to get a decently well paying job. Wife and I work hard, too hard for our mental health to be honest. Wife regularly has 80+ hour weeks at work.

Our financial planning has always been about security. If things go right (and that can always fall apart), we hope to be able to pay off the, house, give our kids a nice home to grow up in, maybe help pay for their schooling, donate to charities we believe in regularly, and retire as early as is reasonably possible. We take one or two modest vacations a year and otherwise try to not live a highly consumer lifestyle. Probably the best statement is that I'd like a comfortable life, hopefully one where I could do something good for other people, and not need to stress about money. If I don't spend every penny, great, give enough to the kids to help them out and donate the rest if we somehow get lucky and die with more than our family needs.

Besides machining and engineering hobbies, I try to spend as much time outdoors as I can. Rock climbing, backpacking, whitewater kayaking, multi-day bike trips, etc. For me, this is how I enjoy seeing the world, much more so than an expensive trip to a foreign city or high-roller lifestyle in some expensive US city.

Again, this is just me. Every person here could write a different story.


----------



## wachuko

For me, it is a balance between saving for the future and living today...

We sometimes go crazy but the craziness can never put at risk food on the table, a roof over our head, or shoes on our feet (sounding like an Alabama song)....

The amount of $ I have spent on hobbies or just stuff that I wanted to learn is ridiculous... but never has that gotten in the way of helping my mother/siblings/extended family, friends or even strangers.  All is good as long as I do not place my family's well being at risk...

I come from a poor family... I know that that is like... I am who I am thanks to the great mentors I have had throughout my life... that and persistance and hard work... never giving up and not listening to folks telling me that I can't do something... I am the eternal optimistic that think that the worst that can happen is that we succeed...  Failure, and I have had many, are just learnings... we pay for everything we learn... sometimes with money, sweat, or tears... nothing comes free... at least that has not been the case for me.

I encourage my wife to make sure she follows her dreams and work toward any goals she has... I do not want to be 80 with her complaining about how I did not let her do this or that.... same goes for her with me...

I have a 401K, so does my wife... We prepaid for our daughter and son's college tuition.  Daughter just finished her Masters without any debt and still 5K in her bank account.  My son is in his first year of college... and between the scholarships and everything else, he has 12K right now in his bank account (he got a lot more scholarships than my daughter, reason for the difference in savings just in his first year)...  His plan is to also do a Master's degree without me having to fork out additional $$.  They will not give me back any of the prepaid money... even with all the scholarships they have received , but that is okay...

I do not waste money in hookers, that also helps... but I do like to drink wine, whiskey, beer...

We are already planning our retirement... 10 years earlier... For the last three years we have cut back on loading the credit cards... three years now that we buy and we pay within the 30 days. No credit card debt!!  I can't believe it... but it is true!  Feels frigging amazing!

COVID, with all the craziness, has helped us as well... not going out to dinner or doing this and that has helped with savings.  And you know what? We do not miss that stuff...  Instead, I was able to buy the used lathe and mill cash... and if all goes well, I will build a small workshop next year...

All that to say, just have a plan... does not mean to limit your goals... it means to have some level of organization that helps you achieve those goals without the distress that could impact your health or your family...  Some stress is good, it keeps us all going... but you have to be careful that it does not reach a point that becomes counterproductive and impacts your health...   What good is all this if you can't take the time to enjoy a few moments...


----------



## jwmay

erikmannie said:


> but when & how do these savings/investment earnings ever get spent?


Incrementally, as needed, after W2 income has ceased.


erikmannie said:


> Are we trying to leave money to our kids? Are we trying to make sure that we don’t spend our golden years in poverty?
> 
> Or is there a luxurious world cruise that awaits us? Take all the kids & grandkids to Italy?
> 
> Do a lot of people practice pragmatism, in part for the sake of knowing th


Yes,yes,no,maybe.


erikmannie said:


> I would just feel really disappointed if I saved up a few million dollars, and then died before I could *enjoy* spending every penny of it.


No you wouldn't. You wouldn't feel anything at all. Lol
But I get your thinking. I've been told the same story by another friend of mine who works himself to death, so he can buy Underarmour, Nike, and Cabelas for the kiddos.  I just think you ain't quite happy doing how you did. Maybe try it a different way.


----------



## WobblyHand

erikmannie said:


> I often advise my 21-year-old son to start a 401k.


Best advice.  Early investments lead to significantly larger next eggs with lower input because of compound interest.

I wrote a bunch of stuff, then I deleted it.  Think @wachuko and @macardoso have the right perspective.  You will get a lot of opinions on this.  Live well, but not extravagantly.  Keep family first.  If you do these things (and kick the debt habit) you will be happier with your life, no matter how long it is.


----------



## mmcmdl

wachuko said:


> but I do like to drink wine, whiskey, beer...





wachuko said:


> waste money in hookers,





wachuko said:


> I


Me too . I spent alot of money over the years on the above ......................................the rest I just wasted .


----------



## davek181

At age 28 you should start a 401K, I recommend the roth method for future tax savings.  I have a young mechanic here I employ and I convinced him to put a little away each month and by retirement time he may have more money than he needs.  He buys one or two shares a month in a Nasdac matching fund that has traditionally grown by 10-12% a year.  I recommended the ticker QQQ because of the historic steady growth and since it is a fund there are managers that know way more than the average person managing it.

There are long range calculators that you can use to get an idea of how much that would be at retirement and it will blow you away.  Also if you work for a company that will contribute to your ira if you match it too, contribute as much as they allow.

Otherwise your plan sounds great and do try to achieve your goals you outlined.  I wish someone had convinced me to build a nest egg earlier rather than later when I was your age.


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## Aaron_W

This is a good question. I don't have a good answer, but it is something I've reflected on since retiring. 

I'm not sure where I got it from but from a young age having a job with good benefits and retirement were of great importance to me. Since nobody has claimed to be the source, I will credit my 8th grade math teacher who had a significant impact on my relationship with math and how money works.

I was a late saver, not because I didn't think it was important, mostly just because you have to have money left at the end of the month to save. I've worked since high school but my focus was on education, and then getting the experience to get a good job so I had a series of mostly low paying seasonal or part time jobs until I was in my late 20s. Once I had a secure job I started dumping money into a deferred savings account (essentially a 401K). 
When I retired our standard of living actually went up which makes me realize that maybe my family didn't have to live so close to the edge for so many years. Might be over doing it when you are living pay check to pay check with a couple hundred thousand sitting in savings...

We were not living like broke college students most of that time, but maybe I could have opted for more frills on occasion, maybe replace a car before the doors (literally) fell off, little stuff like that. On the plus side I did follow my Dad's advice of getting a job I didn't hate going to. I ended up working for the US Forest Service and the National Park Service, we like outdoor activities so despite maybe being a little too tight with my saving we were able to have a lot of fun outdoors without spending much money. 

I could have tried to get better paying jobs but it doesn't suck to look out the back window of your house and see this for 5 years, and get paid on top of it.


----------



## macardoso

davek181 said:


> At age 28 you should start a 401K, I recommend the roth method for future tax savings.  I have a young mechanic here I employ and I convinced him to put a little away each month and by retirement time he may have more money than he needs.  He buys one or two shares a month in a Nasdac matching fund that has traditionally grown by 10-12% a year.  I recommended the ticker QQQ because of the historic steady growth and since it is a fund there are managers that know way more than the average person managing it.
> 
> There are long range calculators that you can use to get an idea of how much that would be at retirement and it will blow you away.  Also if you work for a company that will contribute to your ira if you match it too, contribute as much as they allow.
> 
> Otherwise your plan sounds great and do try to achieve your goals you outlined.  I wish someone had convinced me to build a nest egg earlier rather than later when I was your age.


That is good advice. I use the term retirement loosely, but I started contributing right at 22 when I started working and never even look at that money or slice of my paycheck. I live like it does not exist. Including employer match, I put away 16% of my gross income in Roth. That's 95% in a target date mutual fund and 5% in bonds. We also contribute our take home paycheck to non-retirement midterm investments. This is in a total market index fund and we keep probably 75% of our savings in there.

Wife is a retirement actuary, so she keeps us pointed in the right direction


----------



## jwmay

FWIW, I don't really think you have a lot of debt. But I think you'll be happier if you don't feel like you're fighting to keep your head above water.


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## RJSakowski

Here is my perspective.  I worked until almost 70 because I enjoyed it.  If it weren't fun, I wouldn't have done it.  In the same vein,  when a hobby becomes work, it is no longer enjoyable so I keep my hobbies separate from income producers.  I still do projects for friends and family but don't charge for them except possibly materials.  When they offer to pay, I just tell them to "pass it on".  I'd rather someone owed me a favor than the other way around.  There is a qualifier to this in that we are financially set, barring some total disaster and we have no children.  When we pass, any assets will go to charity.  It would be a different story if we were financially strapped.  My wife retired when I did at age 55 so no SSI or Medicare yet.  We'll hold off on her SSI for a few years yet as it will keep our taxes lower.

My wife and I had a late start coming from previous marriages and almost all of our assets were acquired in the last 25 years.  Nevertheless, we made a decision to go on a pay as you go basis.  Everything that we have acquired has been cash on the barrel head so we went into retirement with no debt.  

When I was making my decision to retire, the main driver was free time.  I was committed to 110%  of my time to work and 110% to home work which left no free time for me.  When I worked, It was literally get up, eat, shower, go to work, come home, eat, maybe an hour of TV and bed.  I made a commitment to keeping weekends free but that was for household chores.

I have no desire to have a bigger and better machine even though I can afford it.  I look at it as "what will it do for me".  I see no sense in spending a lot of money on something and then struggling to find ways to justify the expenditure.  when we sold our startup business, I bought my Tormach because I had an immediate need  that couldn't be done easily be other means.  It was the same for buying a seat of SolidWorks.  A few years later,  I bought my Grizzly 602.  Those were the last major purchases for the shop.  They will in all likelihood meet all my future.needs.  It would be nice to have a plasma torch, a tig setup,  a CNC laser capable of cutting, and a decent 3D printing setup but in reality, I find it hard to justify the need.  Think of as a business.  You wouldn't spend big bucks on some equipment that would just gather dust.  It has to earn its keep.   

The same goes for other hobbies.  I wouldn't buy a second home on some Northern lake just to go up every six weeks to mow grass and paint shutters.  My Great Lakes fishing boat is sitting in my barn because it needs a $10K motor and although I can afford it, the boat would get used once or twice a year.  

When I retired, we took a six week European vacation.  I no longer have a desire for world travel.  The idea of waking up on a different hotel room every morning and spending my evenings watch TV with a language I didn't understand has no appeal.  I guess I'm a homebody at heart.  The most travel I do now is an annual Spring fishing trip that is more about tradition than fishing.  All in all, we lead a modest but comfortable life.  I wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## erikmannie

I just talked to my Saturday supervisor, and the *joint arrangement* that we made will cut my Saturdays hours from 15+ hours down to 5 hours. The 5 hour shift will be spent sitting at a computer. The shift is from 4:30 to 9:30 PM, so I will have most of the day Saturday for resting up/family time/shop time.


----------



## strantor

I'm the last person who should be giving financial advice. I make enough money that I should be able to follow the "if you can't buy it cash you can't afford it" advice typically administered by people who grew up in and accumulated their wealth in the most prosperous era in the most prosperous country in human history (an era that was over before I was born). But, I can't. Or I don't. Can't decide which it is.

But is that what this thread was meant to be? Were you asking for advice? Or just venting? If you were asking for advice, this is all I got:


ddickey said:


> You can write off tools if you have a side gig.


+1
I've been full-time self employed twice in the past decade and both times I failed due to my inability to squirrel away enough money to ride out dry spells with the business. Now my LLC has turned into a bit of a hobby itself. I have a full time employer but I still maintain my LLC and it's just a side gig. It doesn't make much profit. I don't let it. I reinvest as much as I can into it, in the form of guess what? Tools that I want. It's a legitimate business, I have clients, I pay taxes, but I only "take home" (cash) maybe $10k/yr from it. That $70k could have been on the books as a business expense and you wouldn't have had to pay tax on it.

My business account is pretty much the only thing my wife doesn't have access to. I buy whatever I need (want? Again, hard to distinguish) for the business without the expectation of talking to her about it. And she buys whatever she wants using my paycheck, no expectation of talking to me about it. She manages the home finances. She can decide if we can afford it. It works out great for both of us, neither of us having to make justifications to the other or deprive the other of things.

I know you said you want your hobby to not be expected to pay for itself, but there are a lot of advantages to it. Another advantage is that it keeps me sort of focused. I can't just go buy a boat or plane. All my purchases are documented and before I buy something I have to make conscious decision whether or not I could justify it in an IRS audit. Because if I can't justify it to the IRS then I'll have to justify it to my wife, and if neither of those justifications are likely to pass muster then it's probably not worth it. This has kept me from buying things I didn't need. I think... I'm sure there's at least one example of when this happened... idk, I'll think about it and get back to you.

P.s. thanks for putting yourself out there. It's good to hear the perspective of someone not living in a house that's been paid off for 25 years, living off two pensions and a retirement fund.


----------



## erikmannie

@strantor 

I suppose that I may have been looking for input regarding my inability to continue working the long hours that I had set out to.

My main point of this thread was to share exactly where my breaking point was: 70++ average weekly hours worked for 9 months, at which point I put up the white flag and reduced the weekly hours down to 63.

Also, because I have a secure union job, I am able to post personal details including the fact that I have borderline personality disorder. You guys get to read how a person with a personality disorder thinks and acts (e.g. recklessly impulsive), and in return I get to read how you normal (for the most part?) people think and act (e.g. responsibly).

I think my wife has a lot of patience for voluntarily remaining strapped to a runaway train.


----------



## Aaron_W

Nobody has ever accused me of being normal.   


On the thought of making your machines work for you, high end bicycle people are a bit odd and have lots of disposable income. 

Going along with your 1 on 1 welding training idea, and the various skills and tools you have acquired if you could get the right contacts you could probably do ok with a build your own bicycle deal. Work with people teach them how to do some of the work, and you can do some of the trickier stuff yourself as needed. Since you have built electric bikes you've got that covered as well. 
Materials and your time covered by the customer, and you get paid to do something you like. Once you've got the 6 days a week thing out of the way, not now.


----------



## strantor

erikmannie said:


> @strantor
> 
> I suppose that I may have been looking for input regarding my inability to continue working the long hours that I had set out to.
> 
> My main point of this thread was to share exactly where my breaking point was: 70++ average weekly hours worked for 9 months, at which point I put up the white flag and reduced the weekly hours down to 63.
> 
> Also, because I have a secure union job, I am able to post personal details including the fact that I have borderline personality disorder. You guys get to read how a person with a personality disorder thinks and acts (e.g. recklessly impulsive), and in return I get to read how you normal (for the most part?) people think and act (e.g. responsibly).
> 
> I think my wife has a lot of patience for voluntarily remaining strapped to a runaway train.



I don't have a diagnosis on which to lay my shortcomings but I would/will not (have not, in the past) disagreed with anyone who might speculate that I'm on the Autism spectrum. I'm the oldest of 4 kids and 2 of my younger siblings are diagnosed with Autism. My mother never heard of it (at least not by its modern definition as "spectrum" disorder) until my little brother was diagnosed. Then my little sister a couple of years later. My other younger sister is perfectly normal. I'm not. My kids aren't. My mother and I have both done research in past few years and reached the same conclusion: We are both "touched" by the autism stick to one degree or another. Knowing this helps me explain (to myself at least) why I excel at some things and am utterly incapable of other "normal" things.

I don't know what it means to have BPD but I know what it means to be a weirdo. I am likewise fortunate to have found a wife that puts up with me. Even if she does spend all the money (that I don't spend myself).


----------



## Larry$

I didn't retire until I was 70. I now regard that as a mistake. I've been self-employed almost all my life so no company 401! I didn't even have a Creditcard until I started to travel for business. I never financed a car or pickup, drove rusty junk. I invested in property. The rents from those now provide me with enough $ that I can buy whatever I want for my hobby.


----------



## woodchucker

I don't get it? You complained about being burned out, putting in less hours, and you then go and buy a $1000 live center. How does that help your situation. You are saying you will sell pipe coupons.. you won't easily make that back.









						What Did You Buy Today?
					

Is this a one piece unit or 3 separate frames connected together?  From the picture it looks better built than the original product from Huot which I have one. It works but not best quality.  Ariel  Three pieces... in the reviews folks mentioned using double face tape to keep them together, or...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




What am I missing here.  You sounded like you were sending a plea for help...


----------



## WobblyHand

Sounds like an impulsive buy, that may not be warranted for what you need to do.  If this were a business, mmm, maybe, but just to practice welding, in my opinion, not a wise expenditure.  You could make something that would work for far, far less than that with a little engenuity.  You could get away with 0.1" tolerances probably.  Three inward tilted dowels forming a circle in a plate would probably be ok.  I'm sure there are tons of other creative solutions that would work.

My totally unsolicited opinion:  Compulsive buying, while fun (for the moment), can lead to some bad long term consequences.  Get some help, before it totally ruins your life in ways you can't imagine.


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## Firebrick43

erikmannie said:


> @strantor
> 
> I suppose that I may have been looking for input regarding my inability to continue working the long hours that I had set out to.
> 
> My main point of this thread was to share exactly where my breaking point was: 70++ average weekly hours worked for 9 months, at which point I put up the white flag and reduced the weekly hours down to 63.
> 
> Also, because I have a secure union job, I am able to post personal details including the fact that I have borderline personality disorder. You guys get to read how a person with a personality disorder thinks and acts (e.g. recklessly impulsive), and in return I get to read how you normal (for the most part?) people think and act (e.g. responsibly).
> 
> I think my wife has a lot of patience for voluntarily remaining strapped to a runaway train.


Normal people?  Responsibility is discipline in thinking, not something you are born with/without.  Discipline is the act of doing something over and over again correctly.   Acting impulsive is not a disease to be blamed on, its looking in the mirror and blaming that person for the problems in life.  I have seen janitors that retired millionaires and people making millions per year retire broke.


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## strantor

Firebrick43 said:


> I have seen janitors that retired millionaires and people making millions per year retire broke.


Did those janitors work at the airport? I have a theory that someone somewhere is running a rather successful side business selling all the pocket knives and full-sized shampoos that end up in the trash can at the security checkpoint.


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## Firebrick43

strantor said:


> Did those janitors work at the airport? I have a theory that someone somewhere is running a rather successful side business selling all the pocket knives and full-sized shampoos that end up in the trash can at the security checkpoint.


No, in the dorms of the local university.  Pretty sure there was no side bussiness selling things on the side.  Lady was salt of the earth and would even bring morel mushrooms in and give away that she could have sold for 30 dollars a pound or more


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## stupoty

woodchucker said:


> I don't get it? You complained about being burned out, putting in less hours, and you then go and buy a $1000 live center. How does that help your situation. You are saying you will sell pipe coupons.. you won't easily make that back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Did You Buy Today?
> 
> 
> Is this a one piece unit or 3 separate frames connected together?  From the picture it looks better built than the original product from Huot which I have one. It works but not best quality.  Ariel  Three pieces... in the reviews folks mentioned using double face tape to keep them together, or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hobby-machinist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What am I missing here.  You sounded like you were sending a plea for help...


Contact them and cancel it if it hasn't shipped yet ,  unless you really need a 1k center.

Stu


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## 7milesup

stupoty said:


> Contact them and cancel it if it hasn't shipped yet ,  unless you really need a 1k center.
> 
> Stu


It was ErikMannie, not Woodchucker that ordered it.  Yes, Erik could cancel, but will he?  Probably not.


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## stupoty

7milesup said:


> It was ErikMannie, not Woodchucker that ordered it.  Yes, Erik could cancel, but will he?  Probably not.


Yeah , I'm just totaly agreeing with wood chucker.

Uncontrolled spending and debt can be serious issues , Erik you might be able to get some help from "addiction" charities perhaps.  No harm in reaching out for help from family members, perhaps. 

Stu


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## Larry$

Is there a difference between a tool addiction and other things?


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## woodchucker

Larry$ said:


> Is there a difference between a tool addiction and other things?


no, it's an addiction. I had an Ex who was like that. addicted to multiple things... none good, all destructive.


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## 7milesup

Larry$ said:


> Is there a difference between a tool addiction and other things?


What Woodchucker said ^^
There is also something called CBD = Compulsive Buying Disorder.  Supposedly it affects about 5% or so of the population. There are also other names for it.


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## rabler

It sounds like a vicious circle to me.  

Working too hard, generating stress and unhappiness, and ultimately depression.  Need to do something to alleviate the stress, feel good -> go buy something for the workshop dream of getting away from the stress.  Now need to work harder to pay off the debt.  Brings on more stress ...


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## strantor

rabler said:


> It sounds like a vicious circle to me.
> 
> Working too hard, generating stress and unhappiness, and ultimately depression.  Need to do something to alleviate the stress, feel good -> go buy something for the workshop dream of getting away from the stress.  Now need to work harder to pay off the debt.  Brings on more stress ...


You could replace "something for the workshop" with "some liquor," "some cocaine," whatever.
Doesn't matter what you fill in the blank with, it's always obvious from the outside (usually from the inside too) what the solution is, but for reasons that wouldn't make sense unless you've been there, easier said than done. Sometimes you need help.


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## rabler

strantor said:


> You could replace "something for the workshop" with "some liquor," "some cocaine," whatever.
> Doesn't matter what you fill in the blank with, it's always obvious from the outside (usually from the inside too) what the solution is, but for reasons that wouldn't make sense unless you've been there, easier said than done. Sometimes you need help.


I think he's starting to realize that.  Trying to cut back on work is one step.  Unfortunately this board isn't going to be able to provide more than a nudge in the right direction.


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## woodchucker

usually the person in this situation is in denial, and will just keep it that way. The only way the cycle breaks, is when they see it for themselves, usually it's after a major event.


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## 7milesup

woodchucker said:


> usually the person in this situation is in denial, and will just keep it that way. The only way the cycle breaks, is when they see it for themselves, usually it's after a major event.


Like when he is left with half of a lathe, half of a mill, half of a welder, half of a shop, and whatever else the wife takes.  I'm surprised she has stuck around this long, but then again, maybe she has her own money and doesn't give a rip what he does with his.


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## stupoty

7milesup said:


> Like when he is left with half of a lathe, half of a mill, half of a welder, half of a shop, and whatever else the wife takes.  I'm surprised she has stuck around this long, but then again, maybe she has her own money and doesn't give a rip what he does with his.



It's difficult , we all know the problems that can arise , best to fix it before they doooo.

Eric, at least it's in your power to deal with the issues and it's not hit a block in the road yet that derails the whole train.

Stu


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## pontiac428

Erik, I know you like to practice and tinker, but if I needed a big live center at that price (from China, no less), I'd be putting the feelers out for a nice 10" round drop of some 4130 or similar so I could put that nice 16" deluxe lathe to work!  It would be good practice, and there is lots of wiggle room for margin of error.  I prefer building my own tools when possible, it provides a whole new level of satisfaction that you just don't get from opening a UPS box.  Heck, I'd buy a tool post grinder to finish the job if I didn't have one already, and would still be ahead of the $1000 for the import live center.  That's a two-fer.


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## snoopdog

Nothing is worth your personal well being, nothing. Everyone has a story, I could go on and on. I worked 4 straight years with only Christmas afternoon off, and finally through my hands up in the air, and went to the river for a week alone. We have changed our farming operations from stockers to cow/calf, to hay production and back to cow/calf, whatever the prospects are best for us, I aint afraid to sell out. I've had the conversation more than once with my wife, that when I kick it the auction of the farm and equipment, and my various hobbies will set her up good. Her reply is always "that stuff definitely brings more than towels and sheets" lol. You have to have balance. I will say being debt free is a good feeling, and one that we didn't think a few years ago that we would ever achieve. My wife went to college late in life, with 2 kids from a previuos husband, and could have played the system but didn't, and was stuck with 40k of student debt at age 58, because life happens. Anyway, take care of yourself, you're the only one who can.


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## BGHansen

Hi Erik,

Not adding anything but my perspective as a new retiree (as of today, March 1, 2022).  You know your finances better than anyone.  This is a judgement-free forum, some may disagree with mortgaging "the farm" to outfit your shop.  Hey, it's your money/debt, do as you see fit.  Members here have your best interest at heart and will give you their advice.

Some tips toward a happy retirement (from my perspective).  My wife and I had all of our debt paid off (house payment) 12 years ago.  We didn't want to owe anyone anything before we even considered retiring.  When paying off debt, tackle the one with the biggest interest rate first, then work down the line.

We also saved with a plan to retire with the same income we had during our working time.  Mostly bragging at this point, but Fidelity tells me that if my 401K averages a gain of 2.5% a year, we can live on a pay raise of about 15% over what we were making while working.  That's sustainable until I hit 93.

So how did we get there?  For starters, we never put ourselves in a position of having credit card debt.  Something about getting 0.25% interest on money saved at the bank vs. them charging 20+% for the "privilege" of borrowing money from them via plastic just irked me.  We'd save up the money for the purchase and pay cash.  We figured if we didn't already have it, we really didn't need it right away.  However, if that's the route you chose, no problem.  There is some value in getting what you want when you want it, that's why we work.  It doesn't have to pay off or make sense if that's what you want.

Case in point for us is my wife has been talking about putting in solar panels for years.  Her concern is I cut about 8 full cords of firewood a year to supplement our propane furnace (cuts our propane use in half).  At 62 I can still handle the work.  At 72 or 82, maybe not.  We put in a geothermal "pump and dump" system last year ($15K) as an alternative to wood/propane.  The cooling cycle makes perfect sense to me (more efficient) as it cools compressed freon with 55 F water instead of 90+ degree air.  That lets the system run on a 15 A/220 V breaker (much smaller compressor because of the massive increase in efficiency) instead of a 40A/ 220V.  However, the heating cycle doesn't make sense though the jury is still out.  It's basically a refrigerator; compress the freon, and blow air over the coils to make heat.  It made our electric bills go from ~$125 a month to >$350 or about $225 to heat the house in the winter.  We've been going through 3 tanks of propane a year at about $1500.  Our propane usage will probably drop to maybe one fill a year (hot water heater) so saving $1000 in propane at the cost of around $1000 in electricity (?, will tally the total at the end of the heating season).  It does give us the option of heating with propane or electricity depending on the cost of the energy.  If propane goes up to $4 a gallon, easy call and we'll pump and dump.  Electricity goes up to $0.25 kW hour, we'll go back to the propane.

Long story longer, we're putting in a Power Home Solar (you've probably seen the ads with Jayson Waller) system.  We're paying cash to get a 10% discount ($72K instead of $80K).  They project our current average electric bill to be $175 a month throughout the year.  They predict our bill will drop to an average of $45 a month with the system in place.  That'll save us ~$1560 a year in electric bills (assuming their math is correct), but at a cost of $72,000.  Payback assuming no interest on our $72K in the bank is 46 years.  Of course there are many variables that'll throw the projections off like the current cost of electricity ($0.13 per kW hour for us currently).  Does it make sense, ABSOLUTELY not!  But my wife is passionate about the environment, we have the money, so we're doing it even though the math doesn't make sense.  It's not taking any food off the table, not keeping us from doing any travelling, etc.  It's our money and we'll spend it wherever/however we want (thank you very much)!

You obviously enjoy your shop and members here love seeing your projects.  We wish you all the best with your place of work, it's a 4-letter word for good reason!  But life is not all about work and saving money for the future.  You have to enjoy yourself too!  We just don't want to see you fall into the high-interest, gotta have it now trap.

Just my $0.02!

Bruce


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## mmcmdl

BGHansen said:


> Not adding anything but my perspective as a new retiree (as of today, March 1, 2022)


You retired ? Congrats !


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## Dave Smith

Erik,
I can see your dilemma, and we all have ours- in many different areas. some are greater than others, and maybe some members could easily solve others dilemmas, but not their own.
I will be 79 this year and have been retired since I was 61. I worked hard long hours and lots of overtime for very little pay from two companies up until I retired.--- in 1983 my pay was $3.50 an hour and my pay when I retired was still less than $17 an hour. my wife was a stay at home wife raising our children so mine was our only income. I could not spend much on hobbies till the kids left home so had to look for real bargains that would help me tackle home projects that I always had. I paid my 10 acre hobby farm off in approx 1988 and never went into debt again on a home or cars and trucks. no credit cards.
I didn't have money to squander,  so just made sure we had a good home to live in ---good food to eat, and vehicles to get around in. some mechanical tools helped also, and a belsaw planer.
just before the kids left home I was able to start buying some old wood working machines (an A87 Parks combination mill ) (still have it )and some table saws and band saws to help me remodel the home and make wooden gifts. made several sanders, also bought an arc welder and a oxy/ace.  torch set-----in 1995 I was able to buy my 10" Logan lathe, and start my metal working hobby to help fix and make things. I collected free or inexpensive materials all during my life so I have enough for all and more for future projects. these will  help me to not need to invest in buying materials, I already have enough.
I have always been a happy person and have a perfect wife. we live on just our social securities, and my buying low and selling high talents. I have more money in my wallet now than ever, and don't lack. we are both Christians and my folks were Christians. My dad was the only breadwinner and they raised 11 of us. I was next to youngest so I had many examples to follow. my advise is --- keep it simple---love and respect your wife, and work together---believe in God.
**my dilemma is too much stuff and I don't move as fast as I used to-- to organize and deal with all of it. ---I figure I have 20 years left to enjoy my hobbies and stay healthy and not leave a big mess for others to deal with.-----sorry this got too long of reply----we are praying for you and your wifes' happiness. God bless you and your family.
Dave


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## Larry$

BGHansen said:


> Payback assuming no interest on our $72K in the bank is 46 years.


I considered a smaller solar install but even with government incentives it didn't pay by a long ways. I don't like government subsidies for anything. They hide the real costs.


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## BGHansen

mmcmdl said:


> You retired ? Congrats !


Yes and thanks!


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## DavidR8

<hijackon/>
Congrats on retiring @BGHansen!
<hijackoff/>


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## BGHansen

Larry$ said:


> I considered a smaller solar install but even with government incentives it didn't pay by a long ways. I don't like government subsidies for anything. They hide the real costs.


One thing I forgot to mention is the 26% tax credit this year. The system will cost us about $54k after we get the tax credit. We are also getting the Generac battery backup system. It's a 9 kW hour battery and will be wired to 4 circuits. We'll be running our propane furnace, well, WiFi and a frig.

It's not a replacement for a whole house generator by any stretch. Just made to get us through the night. It's enough to run a 15A 110 circuit at full capacity for 5 1/2 hours. I'll pick up a just in case gas generator to charge the battery.

Bruce


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## 7milesup

BGHansen said:


> One thing I forgot to mention is the 26% tax credit this year. The system will cost us about $54k after we get the tax credit. We are also getting the Generac battery backup system. It's a 9 kW hour battery and will be wired to 4 circuits. We'll be running our propane furnace, well, WiFi and a frig.
> 
> It's not a replacement for a whole house generator by any stretch. Just made to get us through the night. It's enough to run a 15A 110 circuit at full capacity for 5 1/2 hours. I'll pick up a just in case gas generator to charge the battery.
> 
> Bruce


You could buy a Ford Lightning and use that as a house power source.  When I first saw that ad with the truck plugged into the house and the family running all of their stuff, I thought it was just a gimmick, until I looked into it.  It is actually quite the power source.


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