# Using just the handwheels (vs a DRO)



## BiggerNoise (Apr 24, 2022)

A fair number of folks don't use a DRO, preferring to count revolutions of the hand wheels.

I've tried counting each turn out loud, but it seems more often than not I end up off by one count. 

What's a good way to keep count of the turns? 
If you lose count, how do you re-establish your location?


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## benmychree (Apr 24, 2022)

Many times I just do an accurate layout and work to the lines and centers by eye.


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## stupoty (Apr 24, 2022)

You can use a dial indicator on the compound for the finish cuts.

Stu


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## mikey (Apr 24, 2022)

BiggerNoise said:


> What's a good way to keep count of the turns?
> If you lose count, how do you re-establish your location?


I normally decide how many turns I need to move the desired distance and focus only on that until I get the handwheel where it needs to be. Haven't had a problem doing it this way for decades.


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## Alexander McGilton (Apr 24, 2022)

The DRO was vary much a constant during my apprenticeship, So I haven't much needed to count revolutions. Though I did ask the vary same question to my mentor at the time and answer was simply you don't keep track. You rely on layout dye and scribe lines made prior to machining, as well as being mindful of always being on either the push or pull side of the backlash. If a feature was 4 3/8 from the origin, then having cutter approximately over the finish line as well as the Bridgport dials displaying .175 then you know you are over and on to the finish line. Having a memory of the inches and their fractional numerical equivalents is a must.


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## BiggerNoise (Apr 24, 2022)

Really appreciate all of the replies.


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## Mitch Alsup (Apr 24, 2022)

The real trick to using the handwheels is to understand how to eliminate backlash from the turn calculation.
It is easy if you remember to inch up on the movement always from the same direction of turning the wheels.
And if you overshoot, or turn the wheel the wrong direction, turn the wheel at least ½ turn in the wrong direction so that when you are turning the wheels in the right direction, the backlash is removed when you head in the right direction.

Dial indicators make this easier.


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 24, 2022)

Layout is they key. Then double check with a scale as you work.
I use both the DRO and the dials at the same time. Trust but verify.
I still make mistakes.


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## Aaron_W (Apr 24, 2022)

I use a Sharpie marker to mark a rough in line, then work down to that. I try to get it close enough that at most I have 3-4 turns to the final size.


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## BladesIIB (Apr 24, 2022)

My lathe is .200” per revolution.  It even on my mill with .100” per revolution a sharpie mark is usually enough to let me know when it is the last rev. Count up front before your cut when you can focus, make a good mark. Then when you are cutting you only have to know the last rev and your stopping point. Can even put a sharpie mark on the hand wheel to keep that straight.


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## compact8 (Apr 24, 2022)

BiggerNoise said:


> A fair number of folks don't use a DRO, preferring to count revolutions of the hand wheels.



I doubt how many actually "prefer" doing revolution counting when DRO is available.  On my mill, there are linear scales on the X and Y axes so counting is not required but I still need to do some maths because the linear scales are graduated in mm and one full turn of the handwheel is 3 mm so the amount of travel is not simply concatenating the linear scale reading and that of the wheel.   The same goes for the tail stock of my lathe. Linear scale in mm and one turn is 1.5 

Then I switched to DRO and never looked back.

See if you can stick to the rail a linear scale graduated in number of turns of the handwheel. As it is just for revolution counting, it does not need to be very accurate or precise so making one from scratch should be quite easy.


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## BiggerNoise (Apr 24, 2022)

compact8 said:


> I doubt how many actually "prefer" using hand wheels when DRO is available.  On my mill, there are linear scales on the X and Y axes so counting is not required but I still need to do some maths because the linear scales are graduated in mm and one full turn of the handwheel is 3 mm so the amount of travel is not simply adding up the linear scale reading and that of the wheel.   The same goes for the tail stock of my lathe. Linear scale in mm and one turn is 1.5
> 
> Then I switched to DRO and never looked back.
> 
> See if you can stick to the rail a linear scale graduated in number of turns of the handwheel. As it is just for revolution counting, it does not need to be very accurate or precise.


I inherited a lathe and a mill, but ended up buying the larger version of the lathe with a factory DRO. Which has been really, really nice. I have done a few projects with my son-in-law and he lays everything out in metric while my tool is standard and most of my layout is as well. It was very nice to be able to switch the lathe into metric and just work to his plans without having a bunch of goofy converted values on the whiteboard.

I can add a DRO to my mill, but the cost is not insignificant.


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## projectnut (Apr 25, 2022)

BiggerNoise said:


> *A fair number of folks don't use a DRO, preferring to count revolutions of the hand wheels.*
> 
> I've tried counting each turn out loud, but it seems more often than not I end up off by one count.
> 
> ...



I was in that camp up until the summer of 2012.  I remember the time well because I had several large projects I needed to get out the door.  If you recall it was nearing election time and the political calls were coming in fast and furious.  I had no way to knowing who was on the other end until I picked up the handset.  More often than not it was someone trying to persuade me to vote one way or another.

I was going from the mill to the phone an average of 50 times a day.  On really bad days it was closer to 100.  Each time the phone rang I would try to remember to write down where I was and answer the call.  Far too many times I forgot to write down the numbers and just answered the phone.  When that happened, I had to retrace my steps.  It got to be a real PITA and jobs were taking twice as long as they should.

I finally broke down and gave DRO Pros a call.  I explained the situation and asked what brand and model they would suggest.  I made the purchase and was about to hang up when the gentleman on the other end mentioned the "Added Guarantee".  He guaranteed that after November 6th of that year the addition of the DRO would virtually eliminate any political calls suggesting a presidential candidate for 4 years.

The DRO is still working fine, and the "Added Guarantee" did work.  I didn't get a single call suggesting a presidential candidate for the next 4 years.


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## BiggerNoise (Apr 25, 2022)

One of the few advantages of living in a "no swing whatsoever" state is that I never get one of those calls.  

Unfortunately, I'm capable of self-distraction, so I lose my count all by myself.


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## 7milesup (Apr 25, 2022)

compact8 said:


> concatenating


If I learned but one thing in this thread, it was a new word.


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## Gaffer (Apr 25, 2022)

7milesup said:


> If I learned but one thing in this thread, it was a new word.


Me too!!


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## BGHansen (Apr 25, 2022)

In my "youth" I messed up a few projects by thinking I'd zero'd out the handwheel turning CW when it was actually CCW.  Also lost count on turns and had to turn back to the starting point and repeat.  My solution at the time was to put a hang tag on the handle labeled with the direction and side of part where I'd zero'd (for example, CW LH, CCW RH).  That saved me a little time when returning to the project on another day.  Also, if I was leaving the project, I'd move the table back to the (0, 0) point.

Second best money I ever spent (wife's engagement ring is #1) was the ~$500 for a 4-axis DRO from TPAC tools.  There are cheaper options, but what a game changer.  The only problem I've had with my DRO is when my unheated at the time shop got down to under 40 F.  The DRO stopped working so I was back to hand wheels.  After a day of that the DRO got a heating pad bungee'd to it; no issues after that.

Yes, it's an investment for a DRO.  I'd start saving my pennies and make that your next purchase.  Better than sliced bread, inside facilities, etc.

Bruce


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## mickri (Apr 25, 2022)

A DRO is not in my future.  I don't use my mill/drill enough to warrant the cost of a DRO.  I have become accustomed to using the hand wheels on my mill/drill.  A learned motor skill.

One thing that really helped me was only using the X axis hand wheel on the left side of the table.  Turn the handle to the right (cw) and the table moves to the right.  Turn the handle to the left (ccw) and the table moves to the left.  I removed the hand wheel on the right side of the table.

On the Y axis the old righty tighty, lefty loosey comes into play.  Turn to the right and the table moves in similar to tightening a bolt.  Turn to the left and the table moves out similar to loosening a bolt.

Because the dials on mine don't have the zero feature I keep tract of movement by writing everything down on paper.

My methods would never fly in a production shop where time is money.  But for me if it takes longer to do something well I get to spend more time in my shop.


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## compact8 (Apr 25, 2022)

mickri said:


> Because the dials on mine don't have the zero feature I keep tract of movement by writing everything down on paper.



Kind of hard to imagine how it can be done .....

Although the hand wheels of my mill has got the zero feature, I still couldn't do the math in my head so I need to put together a simple Excel spreadsheet for the purpose.

E.g. X-axis origin set at handwheel reading = 0 ,  get there by turning the wheel CCW,  linear scale reading = 100 mm , one turn of the handwheel is 3 mm. Enter all these into Excel.

If I want to move the spindle to the left by 13.45 mm, ( X = -13.45 ), the Excel formula will tell me that the linear scale should read between 85 and 86 and the handwheel scale 1.55.  I also need to make sure that the handwheel gets there by turning in the CCW direction.

Have been doing this for some 20 years before switching to DRO.  I use a cheap brand only ( ToAuto ) but it works very well.


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## mickri (Apr 25, 2022)

It's really rather easy.  My X & Y axis move .125 with each revolution.  You either add or subtract depending on the direction of movement.  If the total is greater than .125 then you subtract .125 to get the reading on the dial.  If the total is a negative number then you add .125 to get the reading on the dial.

For example.  If the reading on the dial is say .033 and you need to move to the left .055 then you add the two ending up with .088.  If you need to move .100 the total is .133 which is greater than .125 then you need to subtract .125 which gives you a dial reading of .008.  If you are moving to the right .055 then you would subtract leaving a minus .022.  In this case you would add .125 which gives you a dial reading of 103.   If moving .100 you end up with a minus .067.  Add .125 and your dial reading is .058.

Math comes easy to me.  Maybe because there were no calculators when I was growing up.  You did everything by hand.


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## Jim F (Apr 25, 2022)

mickri said:


> A DRO is not in my future.  I don't use my mill/drill enough to warrant the cost of a DRO.  I have become accustomed to using the hand wheels on my mill/drill.  A learned motor skill.
> 
> One thing that really helped me was only using the X axis hand wheel on the left side of the table.  Turn the handle to the right (cw) and the table moves to the right.  Turn the handle to the left (ccw) and the table moves to the left.  I removed the hand wheel on the right side of the table.
> 
> ...


What brand of mill/drill has dials you cannot zero ?


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## mchasal (Apr 25, 2022)

Doing the rough layout on the part is a good practice and helps in other cases than just losing count of revolutions. I have a DRO now, but I do recall having one part with lots of revolutions between features that I couldn't (or just didn't think to) do the layout on and I resorted to a cup with the right number of washers in it. At every revolution I took one out of the cup and put it in my pocket.


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## BiggerNoise (Apr 25, 2022)

Jim F said:


> What brand of mill/drill has dials you cannot zero ?


The stock wheels on a Sherline cannot be zero'd. I'm torn between buying the zero handwheels or the DRO.


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## mickri (Apr 25, 2022)

Mine is an Excel EC30b.  Franklin Ward and Buffalo mill/drills don't have zero dials.  Not sure about Rutland.  I have often thought about making zero dials for my Excel.


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## Jim F (Apr 25, 2022)

mickri said:


> Mine is an Excel EC30b.  Franklin Ward and Buffalo mill/drills don't have zero dials.  Not sure about Rutland.  I have often thought about making zero dials for my Excel.


Did not know this, even my cheesy Grizzly mill/drill has zeroable dials......


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## compact8 (Apr 25, 2022)

mchasal said:


> . At every revolution I took one out of the cup and put it in my pocket.


Interesting ! I used this method to count the number of laps I have done when jogging.


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## zondar (Apr 26, 2022)

BiggerNoise said:


> The stock wheels on a Sherline cannot be zero'd. I'm torn between buying the zero handwheels or the DRO.


I took delivery of a Sherline mill a few weeks ago. My CNC-ready model came with the zero-able handwheels. I adapted the mill to install the wheels without steppers for the moment so I could get a feel for using it manually first. 

But what DRO system could fit this teeny-tiny mill?

Edit: Oh, you mean Sherline's DRO system? I would not recommend that. It measures the wheel's motion only, not the true position of the x-y stage. That means it knows nothing about the backlash of the system, and hence small errors will creep in at random, at least unless you maintain backlash discipline yourself. That's harder to do on a mill than on a lathe, and doing away with that need is a main point of a DRO on a mill. Hence, I don't think Sherline's solution is good enough.


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## Alcap (Apr 26, 2022)

A few years ago I bought some tools from my wife’s uncle , retired from almost 50 years in a tool &die shop . The toolbox had what I thought were mic standards and mentioned to him that I don’t have mics 10-12” . He said ” you know those  are measuring sticks “ so not to embarrass my sell I said “ Oh yea “ big mistake I should have asked how he used them . I have done some searching they seem like they were used mostly on jig borers but there was some mention to lathes and mills . I haven’t used them but this thread had brought them back to a second thought . I count rotations but it’s a pain for larger moves . Maybe something could made using a fixed stop and say a indicator or mic barrel , similar to a carriage stop on a lathe , the rods would be used between. If anyone has more info on them or some suggestions on setting them up maybe another thread would be more appropriate? Also I did find they made what looked like inside mics so the rods would be adjustable.


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## mmcmdl (Apr 26, 2022)

/\/\/\ Jig bore rods   Darn near identical to inside mics and used on the old jig boring machines .


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## mmcmdl (Apr 26, 2022)

Being old school , I always install and use trav-a-dials on any lathe I ever have vs. DROs . This may be a cheaper or easier alternative for the OP although good trav-a- dials are not cheap anymore .


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## Alcap (Apr 26, 2022)

mmcmdl would you be able to start a thread on uses , maybe pictures on how you use them ? Dos and don’t s , I’m sure there are many of us that would appreciate your knowledge on using them .


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## mmcmdl (Apr 26, 2022)

Jig bore rods or trav-a-dials ?


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## BiggerNoise (Apr 26, 2022)

zondar said:


> I took delivery of a Sherline mill a few weeks ago. My CNC-ready model came with the zero-able handwheels. I adapted the mill to install the wheels without steppers for the moment so I could get a feel for using it manually first.
> 
> But what DRO system could fit this teeny-tiny mill?
> 
> Edit: Oh, you mean Sherline's DRO system? I would not recommend that. It measures the wheel's motion only, not the true position of the x-y stage. That means it knows nothing about the backlash of the system, and hence small errors will creep in at random, at least unless you maintain backlash discipline yourself. That's harder to do on a mill than on a lathe, and doing away with that need is a main point of a DRO on a mill. Hence, I don't think Sherline's solution is good enough.


I'll just say that I have never heard anyone that actually uses the Sherline DRO complain about its system for backlash compensation. It certainly works extremely well on my lathe. I'll admit that I'm new to this and basing this judgement more upon indicator readings vs a lot of experience with making parts.


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## Aaron_W (Apr 26, 2022)

mchasal said:


> Doing the rough layout on the part is a good practice and helps in other cases than just losing count of revolutions. I have a DRO now, but I do recall having one part with lots of revolutions between features that I couldn't (or just didn't think to) do the layout on and I resorted to a cup with the right number of washers in it. At every revolution I took one out of the cup and put it in my pocket.



I've thought of using one of those little hand clickers they use to count people in line. The main reason I haven't got around to it is I'm afraid it would just distract me and just create a new issue.



zondar said:


> I took delivery of a Sherline mill a few weeks ago. My CNC-ready model came with the zero-able handwheels. I adapted the mill to install the wheels without steppers for the moment so I could get a feel for using it manually first.
> 
> But what DRO system could fit this teeny-tiny mill?
> 
> Edit: Oh, you mean Sherline's DRO system? I would not recommend that. It measures the wheel's motion only, not the true position of the x-y stage. That means it knows nothing about the backlash of the system, and hence small errors will creep in at random, at least unless you maintain backlash discipline yourself. That's harder to do on a mill than on a lathe, and doing away with that need is a main point of a DRO on a mill. Hence, I don't think Sherline's solution is good enough.



Sherline's DRO needs to be treated more like a digital trav-a-dial. As long as it is reset at each use backlash shouldn't be an issue. Personally I don't think it is worth the cost for what you get, but it seems to be functional if you accept its limitations. Not really a DRO though as most people think of it.


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## Cisco541 (Apr 26, 2022)

BiggerNoise said:


> A fair number of folks don't use a DRO, preferring to count revolutions of the hand wheels.
> 
> I've tried counting each turn out loud, but it seems more often than not I end up off by one count.
> 
> ...


I always set dial to zero first......if your machine has lots of backlash you need to carefully elimat without moving the table..then set dial to 0.  Easy to count the times zero comes by and then any addition dial reading needed. If you go past just backup past the last zero to remove backlash .....the back to zero. Works for me!


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## BiggerNoise (Apr 26, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> I've thought of using one of those little hand clickers they use to count people in line. The main reason I haven't got around to it is I'm afraid it would just distract me and just create a new issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Sherline's DRO needs to be treated more like a digital trav-a-dial. As long as it is reset at each use backlash shouldn't be an issue. Personally I don't think it is worth the cost for what you get, but it seems to be functional if you accept its limitations. Not really a DRO though as most people think of it.


Definitely agree that the Sherline DRO is very pricey for what you actually get.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 26, 2022)

For more than twenty years, I operated my mill/drill by the dial, counting turns and dealing with backlash.  I had more than my share of operator errors in that time.  The turning point was a series of jobs for our startup company that required some precision machining.  The part was mounted on a rotary table oriented vertically which permitted machining on five faces without changing the setup.  More than twenty tool changes were involved, requiring setting tool offsets for most of them.  Machining by the dials would have been a nightmare.  (For those interested, the operations file is below.)  The DRO made the work possible and saved my sanity.

Aside from the issues of counting turns and recording positions when using the dials, there is the obvious issue of dealing with backlash.  My old mill/drill is tired and there is a considerable amount of backlash.  This backlash is caused by three factors; play in the thrust bearing, wear in the lead screw nut, and wear of the lead screw..  The first two can be compensated for but the last one is problematic.  

The x axis on my RF30 clone has .018" of backlash  at the extreme left table position..  It has .033" of backlash at the center of travel.  In the y direction, it has .037" of backlash at extreme outboard position but .048" of backlash at the center of travel.  The extreme positions will have the least amount of lead screw wear so backlash will be attributed to lead screw nut wear and thrust bearing free play.  That leaves .015" of backlash attributed to lead screw wear on the x axis and .011" on the y axis.  Assuming equal wear on both flanks of the screw, ir would mean that if I position by the dial, I will come up short  the the actual distance traveled by .0075" and .0055", respectively.  

However, it is actually worse than that as the flanks didn't see equal wear.  Moving the table to the far outboard position and removing backlash, I zeroed the dial and the DRO and moved the table in 3.500" by the dial.  The DRO showed the table only moved 3.4888" or .0112" short.  Reversing the direction I showed the table moving .0004" less than the dial indicated movement of 3.500".  This indicated that almost all the wear occurs on the rear facing flanks of the lead screw. 

Checking the x axis lead screw, Moving the table 10.000" to the left by the dial showed the travel coming up .0062" short and moving to the right, .0088" short.  Lead screw wear will be uneven depending upon what regions saw the most use in history.  

It would be possible to map out the entire travel of the lead screws and use correction values but the tedious nature of that activity would make me want to take up ballroom dancing as a hobby instead. The addition of the DRO to the mill eliminates all of that uncertainty and returns the functionality to better than new.


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