# Debate switching to solar power



## Cadillac (Jul 6, 2019)

I’ve been toying around the idea of going solar power for acouple years now and would love to hear from someone that already has or has good informed knowledge of the process.
I average between 400-500 kWh per month in a 1700sq ft ranch house. To my eye my roof should have adequate room for panels mostly full sun all day. My one concern would be I wouldn’t want to put panels on street side so they wouldn’t be seen from street. Wondering what surface area to power needed is to see how much roof I would need?
Are their better systems out there and ones to stay away from ?
Long term I plan on staying here for maybe 10yrs. Need to move for better schooling choices once boy is of age. Main reason for wanting to do this is to not be reliant on the power company paying all the fees and bla bla bla. My normal consumption is cheaper than the delivery rates then add all the taxes and fees for programs it’s just ridiculous. I want them to start paying me I would also think it would help a lot with resale of the house which I have completely renovated to make very efficient consisting of insulation, windows all appliances, tankless water heater and 96% furnace,LED’s everywhere.
I’d really like to learn as much as possible about going solar so if you have any knowledge of it please inform me and thanks for reading let me have it.


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## newbydave (Jul 6, 2019)

Cadillac said:


> I’ve been toying around the idea of going solar power for acouple years now and would love to hear from someone that already has or has good informed knowledge of the process.
> I average between 400-500 kWh per month in a 1700sq ft ranch house. To my eye my roof should have adequate room for panels mostly full sun all day. My one concern would be I wouldn’t want to put panels on street side so they wouldn’t be seen from street. Wondering what surface area to power needed is to see how much roof I would need?
> Are their better systems out there and ones to stay away from ?
> Long term I plan on staying here for maybe 10yrs. Need to move for better schooling choices once boy is of age. Main reason for wanting to do this is to not be reliant on the power company paying all the fees and bla bla bla. My normal consumption is cheaper than the delivery rates then add all the taxes and fees for programs it’s just ridiculous. I want them to start paying me I would also think it would help a lot with resale of the house which I have completely renovated to make very efficient consisting of insulation, windows all appliances, tankless water heater and 96% furnace,LED’s everywhere.
> I’d really like to learn as much as possible about going solar so if you have any knowledge of it please inform me and thanks for reading let me have it.


One site is Simply Solar. "simplysolar@yahoo groups.com". They are a group of solar enthusiasts that have a wealth of information. Join the group and  ask questions.


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## markba633csi (Jul 6, 2019)

Are you going to stay on grid or are you thinking of going totally off grid?  I believe the on-grid option is cheaper, the off- grid system requires a sizeable investment in batteries+ charge controllers and inverters plus more pv panels
Mark
ps my brother in Phoenix is contemplating an off grid system- the irony is that even though he's got plenty of sun the high outdoor temperatures require lots of air conditioning which eats up a lot of the system capacity


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 6, 2019)

for that amount of usage you're not going to break even before you move unless your state has a generous feed in tariff. I've looked into it some and it just doesn't make sense for us financially, even in Central Texas with a large south facing roof. I've also heard conflicting stories from realtors and buyers, so I wouldn't bank on it increasing the resale value. It might even make it harder to sell.

If you don't mind the high pressure sales tactics, get 2 or 3 installers out for quotes. They'll know how much you'll need, how much you can fit and what the various federal and state programs are. Don't forget that those programs can (and will) be withdrawn at some point, so base your calculations on the most pessimistic forecast you can. A friend back in south eastern WA (lots of sun in the summer) spent alot of money on an install only for the state government to reduce the feed in tariff a couple of years later, increasing the break even point from 7 years to something like 15. Still worth it for them, but less so than they thought.


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## savarin (Jul 6, 2019)

I've had solar water heating and power on my roof for around 20 years now.
I jumped in a bit too quick just before they dropped the price of panels so only managed a 1.75KW system.
My feed in tariff was 44c/KW, if I want to increase the size of my system I loose the 44c down to 7c (or around there)
If I had the spare cash I would load the roof with as much as it could bear and go off grid because prices are escalating here and the new panels are more efficient and produce more power per panel that mine.
Be aware they do not produce as much as they are advertised to do and what the sellers say they will.
I get rebates on every bill but not as much as when we were both working and every drop went back to the grid.
Most of my power is used during the day now.


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## kb58 (Jul 6, 2019)

This is an enormous topic. I really recommend some serious research before jumping in, because there are many dimensions to this. I highly recommend https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum because they're both end users and some are engineers who've shined light on what's really going on behind the sales pitches.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 6, 2019)

I was involved in a project to convert the off grid (LPG generator) fire station I worked at to solar. A few years out of date since that project started 5 years ago and only went into service last fall, a year after I retired.

What I found out during that process.

Panels are cheap, and getting cheaper, some are less than $1 / watt. Installation is now a more significant cost than the actual panels.

Batteries and inverter are not cheap, so full off grid costs a lot more than a grid tie in system that sells the power back to the power company and deducts the power sold from your bill. 

Grid tie in agreements vary by location, some power companies basically just roll your meter back, so if you use 3000 watts, and your panels produce 1000 watts, you only pay for 2000 watts. Some areas sell the power to the power company, at a set rate which is deducted from you bill. If you are selling power, some areas may tax the power you generate. It is important to know how your area handles this, the roll back method seems to be the better deal, and just easier to deal with.

Avoiding shadows on the panels is more important than, the actual quality of the sunlight. Panels work on a differential method, sunlight on one side, shade on the other (bottom side). A tree branch casting a shadow over a relatively small area of a panel has far more of a negative effect, than a cloudy day with evenly distributed sunlight.

Dirty panels are less efficient, so you need to clean them periodically.

As panels age they lose effectiveness, so if you go off grid you need to start with more power than you need to compensate for the loss of power as they age. Life expectancy of a solar panel is 10-20 years depending on quality.

On the plus side, if you go with a grid tie in system, you can start small, say 1000 watts which is probably around 4x8 feet give or take based on panel quality, sun light quality / length of exposure and the installation type (fixed or sun tracking). Since it doesn't have to power the whole house you can start small and see if it justifies expanding. I've thought about putting 1000-2000w of panels on my house with the idea it would offset the AC bills during the summer.


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## RJSakowski (Jul 6, 2019)

Our neighbor has a solar array which ties into the grid and I believe that she has achieved payback already after around ten years.  Wisconsin has a mandate that power companies must generate a certain percentage of their power from renewable resources so the the power company pays her more per kwh than they charge.  Also there were significant incentives for installation which reduced the capital outlay.  She happens to live on a hilltop and has an array which tracks the sun so overall efficiency is around double that of a fixed array.

I have looked at going solar but decided that, due to my location, I would not achieve payback in my lifetime (I'm 74). Sun rises about an hour after actual sunrise and sets behind the trees to the west around 5PM.

Since that determination, capital costs have decreased and solar panels have become more efficient.  One thought that I had was to use passive reflective panels to increase the solar flux, thereby reducing the number of panels required.

One consideration in determining the size of the system is the amount of cloud cover.  There is a very big difference between Illinois and the desert southwest.  Madison, Wisconsin has around 55% sunny or partially sunny days.  December has less than four hours/day of sunlight while July has over ten.


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## Boswell (Jul 6, 2019)

A little over a year ago I installed a grid tied system. Max output is just under 15kW/H.  We contracted the entire installation and we sized it to provide 80-85% of our usage. The undersizing was intentional because our Electric provider will only pay us about 1/2 as much as they charge so we wanted to minimize the times that we produce more than we use in a given month. Every electrical provider and state have different rules and rates so you need to do your research. Where I live we have what is known as Net Metering. This means that we reconcile the Over/Under only at the end of each month. So we overproduce during the day and of course do not produce at all at night.  At just over 14 months, we have produced 83.8% of all of our electrical needs via solar. 3 months we had less than $20 bills and 1 month they paid me but the remaining months we still had a bill although much much smaller than before.  The installation and panels (we used SunPower). You need to do some financial calculation to know when your break even point will be but expect 10+ years. Our panels are guaranteed for 25 years and I expect they will last longer than that.  The calculation can be a bit involved. All Solar panels degrade a certain % each year so you will need to take that into account. Also if you have to borrow money to purchase the panels, then the cost of the loan needs to be calculated in.  Also in the US there is a substantial Federal Income Tax Credit. I think it was 30% of the cost of the panels and installation for the 2018 tax year. I believe it is scheduled to reduce this year but not sure. states and local governments and electric provides sometimes offer rebates that stack.   Also remember that even if you don't live in the house for 10 + years, you can add to the asking price when you sell. Who wouldn't want to buy a house with next to no electric bill.   

Anyway, tons of stuff to look into. And all the above does not take into account the value to our planet by using the sun instead of coal or gas.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 6, 2019)

Cadillac said:


> I’ve been toying around the idea of going solar power for acouple years now and would love to hear from someone that already has or has good informed knowledge of the process.
> I average between 400-500 kWh per month in a 1700sq ft ranch house. To my eye my roof should have adequate room for panels mostly full sun all day. My one concern would be I wouldn’t want to put panels on street side so they wouldn’t be seen from street. Wondering what surface area to power needed is to see how much roof I would need?
> Are their better systems out there and ones to stay away from ?
> Long term I plan on staying here for maybe 10yrs. Need to move for better schooling choices once boy is of age. Main reason for wanting to do this is to not be reliant on the power company paying all the fees and bla bla bla. My normal consumption is cheaper than the delivery rates then add all the taxes and fees for programs it’s just ridiculous. I want them to start paying me I would also think it would help a lot with resale of the house which I have completely renovated to make very efficient consisting of insulation, windows all appliances, tankless water heater and 96% furnace,LED’s everywhere.
> I’d really like to learn as much as possible about going solar so if you have any knowledge of it please inform me and thanks for reading let me have it.



The things you need to consider (assuming you are going to be grid tied) are:
1) Cost of electricity. It varies greatly and if too cheap it will take a long time to break even.
2) Net metering. If your utility company pays you 1 KWh for each KWh you supply to them then you are OK. If they are cheapskates and pay you a lower rate then once again it takes longer to recoup your costs.
3) Roof direction. Conventional wisdom is that south facing is best, but depending upon your situation regarding sun-hours, shade, and your tariff then SouthWest or even West may be better.
4) Roof area. You need enough to make the installation overheads worthwhile.
5) Roof slope.
6) Temperature. It isn't just the amount of sun that matters it is also how hot it gets. The hotter it is the less efficient the panels are.

There are many other things but a good contractor will spell out all of your choices, like what kind of inverter or inverters you should have, panel size, quantity, etc.

I contacted 5 companies that were highly rated and told them all that I was going to pay cash. Four gave me sensible quotes, one gave me an excellent quote and another matched it and offered to pay my electricity bills until the install was done - and they did.

It was the best investment I ever made, much better than any 401K or stock investment. It dropped my annual bill from $3600 to $600. It was fully paid off in five years, two years ago. Remember the 30% federal tax credit drops at the end of this year. My Electricity Company even paid us some cash for doing it.

Good luck.


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## mickri (Jul 7, 2019)

When I was living on my sailboat I went solar to keep my batteries charged instead of running the diesel engine on the boat.  This was a total off the grid situation.  My experience may not be a good comparison to a house.  I was in Mexico most of the time and then in San Diego.  I did not find that slight shading like the shade from the back stay going across a panel made much if any difference in the amount of power that the panels generated.  The biggest problem for an off the grid set up is battery storage.  You can never have too much battery storage.  The batteries require constant maintenance.  Primarily keeping the terminals clean with good connections and keeping the batteries topped off with distilled water.  The old standard lead acid batteries are the best bang for the buck.

To get a good estimate on power usage you need to keep track of how much power you use on a daily basis.  This is important in determining the size of the battery bank.  Then you need to estimate how many days in a row that you won't have sunshine.  Multiply the number of days times your daily power usage.  Multiply this by 4.  Why do you need 4 times your estimated power need.  The batteries in an off the grid system will never be at full charge.  80% charge is typically.  You also never want to drain your batteries below 50%.  Doing so will damage the batteries.  A battery bank will not except a charging rate of more than around 25% of the size of the battery bank in amps.  Even this will be hard to achieve.  For example I had 400 amp hours of battery capacity on my sailboat.  I never achieved a charging rate of more than 25 amps per hour and that was with my diesel engine using a 105 amp alternator.  The solar panels never produced more than around 15 amps per hour going into the batteries.  No matter how may amps you system may be capable of producing the charge controllers will not allow more than the battery bank can accept to be transmitted to the batteries.

This is just the start of what is involved with living with an off the grid system.  You will have to change your life style if you go off the grid.

Based upon  my experience I would never have an off the grid system in a home.  A grid tied system with at most a generator backup IMHO is the way to go. 

If at all possible I would not mount the solar panels on the roof.  The supports for the panels require lots of holes through the roof.   Everyone a potential leak point.  Also if your roof and the solar panels are not in sync life span wise, you will have to remove and reinstall the panels to replace the roof.  Another cost to factor into the calculations.

I was a real estate appraiser for most of my working career.  Although it has been many years since I did that, I was never able to actually measure an increase in value from solar panels.  I still follow value trends watching sales in my area and still can't attach a value to solar panels on a home.  I think the reason for this is the life span of solar panels.  The closer you get to the end of the life span solar panels may even turn into a negative due to the cost to remove and replace the panels.

As has been mentioned above what your utility company is mandated by law in your area to compensate for the power you generate will have have a big impact on the cost effectiveness of a solar system.  California requires the utility to give you dollar for dollar credit up to the amount of electricity that you use and pay you at a reduced rate for any excess that you pass onto the grid.  Not many states are this pro solar.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 7, 2019)

based on your location your monthly bill should be around $80/mth or about $1000/yr. A fairly standard 5kW install (9-10,000kWh per year depending on location etc) seems to be coming in around $3/W give or take after rebates and incentives, which comes to $15,000. If that takes your bill down to zero per month, you'll take around 15 years to make your money back. Payback time shortens with higher electricity costs, higher feed-in tariffs or better net metering rules, more generous Federal (ha!) or state subsidies and rebates and so on.

Our use is similar, from $60 to 150/mth depending on time of year, and our neighbours are always moaning about how miserly our city power company is - net-metering with $0.016/kWh paid for the excess - that it didn't make financial sense. I'd rather spend some of that money on more attic insulation and a more efficient AC, then invest the rest.


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## MikeInOr (Jul 7, 2019)

Every time I try to pencil out a solar electric installation I can never make the economics work.  Solar electric installs seem to be more about making a statement than actually saving money or even saving electricity.

A few years ago I inherited a bit of money and looked into a solar electric system.  I live in the high desert region of Central Oregon which should be one of the better return on investment areas for solar electric.  The pay back time was going to be longer than 10 years... on paper.  I am confident my actual milage would vary from the paper esitmate... and NOT in my favor.  It just didn't make sense.

Instead I added a centrally located (great room - kitchen, dinning room and living room) high efficiency (Highest efficiency Fuji) mini split AC / heat pump system.  Not having natural gas all my heating is electric.  The mini-split lowered my electric bill about 20% for summer and winter.  I was all excited to get the government and electric company kick back until I found that a mini split is only eligible if I had the system installed by a "qualified contractor".  Well the "qualified contractors" best price was $9k to install their 18seer 12000 btu mini split.  For get that!  Instead I purchased the 26 seer 12000 btu Fuji mini split and installed it my self for just under $2000.  I didn't get the tax credits but I still came out way ahead.  And quite frankly the two different HVAC guys I talked to didn't impress my at all... i.e. the thought of them butchering my house kept me awake at night.  If you are in the mini-split AC buisness should you know atleast as much about mini-splits as your customers?

I absolutely LOVE the mini-split.  We are much more comfortable while saving real money and electric power.  My central AC hasn't been on since we installed it.  My next project will be to install a 3 head mini-split in our 3 bedrooms.

If I ever do install a solar system: 1) I will install it myself.  2) It will almost definitely be a solar hot water system as it will be by far the best bang for buck with the quickest pay back considering I do not have natural gas service.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 7, 2019)

Net metering is not always dollar for dollar especially if you have a TOU (Time-Of-Use) tariff. It may depend on when you generate the power.
If you have an old roof then often the installer will suggest you replace the roof at the same time. Solar systems generally come with a 25-year warranty and I assume most roofs should last that long. 
If you examine your last 5 years of bills and the total is low then the chance that you will benefit from solar is also much lower. However you should never make the mistake of trying to generate all of your usage from solar panels. That is just a waste, especially if you have a tiered electricity tariff where the first few hundred KWh are priced at a low level. You want just enough solar generation to stay in the bottom tier all of the time except for short periods when the weather is very hot and you use a lot of A/C. There definitely is a sweet spot and a good installer will help you find it.
It had not occurred to me that you might not have gas for water and home heating. That does change some of the calculations as using solar power for water heating is a pretty poor choice.


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## kb58 (Jul 7, 2019)

On the site I recommended above, some of them are electrical engineers who've installed their own systems. They did a TON of monitoring and computations, finding that solar is a real mixed bag as far is being a net positive. There's cost of the equipment, installation cost (if not done yourself), daily exposure, equipment reliability, degradation over time, electrical pricing tiers, time of use (TOU) policies, etc.

Their strong advice is a bit surprising: consider simply using less power instead of installing solar. This is extremely telling, having people who "been there done that" came to the conclusion it may not be worthwhile.


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## mickri (Jul 7, 2019)

I think that a solar hot water system makes a lot of sense.  Especially if the solar panel is lower than the water heater by about 2 feet.  As water heats in the panel it will naturally rise up the pipe and into the tank while at the same time sucking cold water from the bottom of the tank.  You actually have to be careful because the water will get really hot. So hot that you can get scalded by the water.  I used solar to heat water on my sailboat and I had to keep the tank under shade cloth that filtered out most of the sun. 

You have to be really careful if you enter into a TOU contract with your utility company.  I have read about people having higher electric bills after installing solar with a TOU contract.


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## BGHansen (Jul 7, 2019)

My in-laws put in a 7.5Kw roof top system a year ago.  Cost was just over $40K on a 5.99% note (they didn't read the fine print and were surprised by the interest rate).  They live in Southern Michigan and without the AC on had a $26 bill last month.  But the payment on the loan is something like $220 a month so really haven't seen a benefit yet.  They're both about 80 and might not hit the cross-over point during their lifetimes.

Biggest problem is Michigan is about as cloudy as Seattle, so like real estate, think location, location, location.  He commented on July 4 that he probably wouldn't do it again.  But that's based on our climate.  You might get a little more sun in Chicago so it'll pay off.

Bruce


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## Larry42 (Jul 7, 2019)

Solar hot water makes a lot of sense. I've traveled a lot and there are large areas of the world that have simple hot water systems, often jury rigged. They require no electrical and very little maintenance. In my climate they would be more complicated due to our low temperatures that get to -20F. As for electric solar, I ran the #s before we bought our house, 19 years ago. A total looser, but things have improved. I live in tornado alley with lots of high winds and hail. Our house is on its 3rd new roof, (4 if your count the first one) several new windows and new siding due to hail. I'd like to know how the solar panels fare with those conditions. How do insurance companies view solar panels? Lots to consider!


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## kb58 (Jul 7, 2019)

Oh, and another thing to consider. There are two types of DC-AC converters. One system uses a large single unit, typically near the power meter on the side of the house. The other type uses "micro converters", where one is attached to each panel. The latter type can cause a lot of radio interference, so if you're out in the country such that you count on through-the-air TV, radio, or ham radio, the former may be your only choice.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 7, 2019)

mickri said:


> I think that a solar hot water system makes a lot of sense.  Especially if the solar panel is lower than the water heater by about 2 feet.  As water heats in the panel it will naturally rise up the pipe and into the tank while at the same time sucking cold water from the bottom of the tank.  You actually have to be careful because the water will get really hot. So hot that you can get scalded by the water.  I used solar to heat water on my sailboat and I had to keep the tank under shade cloth that filtered out most of the sun.
> 
> You have to be really careful if you enter into a TOU contract with your utility company.  I have read about people having higher electric bills after installing solar with a TOU contract.


Solar water heating for your home is a non-starter if you have a gas supply and as long as gas is ridiculously cheap. The repayment period would probably be longer than you will live.

We only moved to a TOU electricity contract after we bought a Tesla. TOU makes A LOT of sense when you have an electric car. However pretty much every utility in every state is going to go there eventually whether you like it or not.

So far, thanks to our solar panels we are running 100% off-peak which has reduced our overall electricity per-KWh cost by more than 22%. This is because all of the daytime off-peak is handled by solar, some of the nighttime off-peak is reduced by daytime solar over-production, and all of the (manually limited) on-peak time is covered too. In fact this month we have negative numbers of KWh used on-peak. To give you an example we are likely to buy 550 KWh this month at the off-peak rate (it is hot and we do use A/C) and our solar system is producing a total of about 500+ KWh this month, so our final bill is more than halved.

I agree wholeheartedly with all suggestions about saving energy, within reason. As with all engineering problems there is a sweet spot that you have to find and many building codes expressly prevent you from modifying existing homes to improve efficiency. And don't get me started on home owners associations.


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## kb58 (Jul 7, 2019)

Yet another variable. Some power suppliers credit you for the power you make for the same amount that they charge everyone else. This is unsustainable as a business model (who's paying to maintain the grid)? For this reason, more and more (and likely, eventually all) suppliers will switch to giving you a very small fractional credit for the power you make, so give up any delusions of making big bucks selling power back to the grid. The point is, sizing the system to make the most economic sense isn't trivial, and usually ends up being smaller than what people want - which of course installers are all to happy to screw you over on.

One more thing is that you'll likely find is that your utility's pricing tier structure over a 24-hr period is will be nearly impossible to determine. Next to national secrets, power company's charges are a very frustrating and opaque thing, which is very likely on purpose.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 7, 2019)

kb58 said:


> Yet another variable. Some power suppliers credit you for the power you make for the same amount that they charge everyone else. This is unsustainable as a business model (who's paying to maintain the grid)? For this reason, more and more (and likely, eventually all) suppliers will switch to giving you a very small fractional credit for the power you make, so give up any delusions of making big bucks selling power back to the grid. The point is, sizing the system to make the most economic sense isn't trivial, and usually ends up being smaller than what people want - which of course installers are all to happy to screw you over on.
> 
> One more thing is that you'll likely find is that your utility's pricing tier structure over a 24-hr period is will be nearly impossible to determine. Next to national secrets, power company's charges are a very frustrating and opaque thing, which is very likely on purpose.


Actually they are moving to a basic monthly charge to pay for the grid in this area and leaving the net metering alone.
I think this is a better idea as everyone needs the grid whether they use a little or a lot of power. Might be tough on low income folks but I think they have price breaks in some cases.


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## Janderso (Jul 7, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Are you going to stay on grid or are you thinking of going totally off grid?  I believe the on-grid option is cheaper, the off- grid system requires a sizeable investment in batteries+ charge controllers and inverters plus more pv panels
> Mark
> ps my brother in Phoenix is contemplating an off grid system- the irony is that even though he's got plenty of sun the high outdoor temperatures require lots of air conditioning which eats up a lot of the system capacity


Boy, you would want a home that is built with the best high tech insulation known to man.
I didn't know, going off grid, was an option.


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## mickri (Jul 7, 2019)

Back in the 80's there was a lot of hype about solar home heating with more options being floated than you could throw a stick at.  I was doing RE appraisals at the time and looked into becoming an expert in the valuation of solar homes.  Everybody was waiting for a study that was being done by a university in New Mexico.  The study included a typical for the time building with typical insulation.  Next was a very well built, well insulated building.  Then there were well built, well insulated buildings each with a different type of solar heating.  The end result was that 90% of the energy saving came from the well built, well insulated building and none of the different solar heating options added more than 10% energy savings. 

Well built well insulated buildings are very tight.  They don't breath and trap moisture inside the home.  They have to have positive ventilation built into the home. This was unknown to me and when I remodeled my house at the time I did not provide ventilation for the home to breath.   My super insulated tight home literally rained inside the house.  I had to punch holes in the roof for vents and create small gaps at the top of the cathedral ceilings to create airflow.  It was a mess.  Live and learn as the saying goes.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 7, 2019)

Janderso said:


> Boy, you would want a home that is built with the best high tech insulation known to man.
> I didn't know, going off grid, was an option.



It's not really an option unless you have no option.

The cost of batteries to store all of the solar, wind and maybe water energy you collect, so you can have electric power 24x7 is prohibitive and the control systems very complex. Added to this the fact that all (non-exotic) batteries have a limited lifetime, plus all of the insulation you would need, and you are talking about a lot of cash. Storing solar heat is less of a problem but even that requires a huge amount of well insulated storage.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 7, 2019)

mickri said:


> Back in the 80's there was a lot of hype about solar home heating with more options being floated than you could throw a stick at.  I was doing RE appraisals at the time and looked into becoming an expert in the valuation of solar homes.  Everybody was waiting for a study that was being done by a university in New Mexico.  The study included a typical for the time building with typical insulation.  Next was a very well built, well insulated building.  Then there were well built, well insulated buildings each with a different type of solar heating.  The end result was that 90% of the energy saving came from the well built, well insulated building and none of the different solar heating options added more than 10% energy savings.
> 
> Well built well insulated buildings are very tight.  They don't breath and trap moisture inside the home.  They have to have positive ventilation built into the home. This was unknown to me and when I remodeled my house at the time I did not provide ventilation for the home to breath.   My super insulated tight home literally rained inside the house.  I had to punch holes in the roof for vents and create small gaps at the top of the cathedral ceilings to create airflow.  It was a mess.  Live and learn as the saying goes.



Have a look at this guy. He says all homes in the south are built wrong and backs it up with sound reasoning.


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## mikey (Jul 7, 2019)

My home is 3,000 SF. All walls are insulated, as is the attic. I have a new Architect 80 roof with ridege vents, 2 large solar fans and have 4 Mitsubishi split system air conditioners, two of which run most of the day.

I had a solar water heater installed. This is an electric 80 gal heater that is powered during the day by 4 solar panels and off the house supply at night.

I have 29 Panasonic 330 HIT panels to supply the house, along with 2 Tesla Powerwalls. On sunny days, which is most days in Hawaii, my home is almost 100% supplied with this system. My home was 99% powered by this system in June and July.

My previous electric bill was over $300/month. It is now less than $27.00/month and $25 of that is the mandatory charge to stay hooked up to the grid so actual cost for grid supply now averages less than $2.00 per month. My system has been in place for about a year now and I like it. I also got a 30% Federal and State rebate so the cost was not too bad. I would say that whether or not a PV system is worth the cost depends on a large number of variables but for me, it was a good investment.


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## markba633csi (Jul 7, 2019)

I have told my brother to take the number of panels he's been planning on using and double or even quadruple it- not sure if he believes me yet
but I keep trying


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## Boswell (Jul 7, 2019)

When we built our home we built it with 12" think walls.  Just build two standard 2x4 walls spaced 3.5" apart and then filled it all with fiberglass batt insulation. No east or west facing windows and large overhangs on the south side.  I/R barriers on the East and West facing walls along with the roof.   I agree with others that Insulation is the most cost effective way to save energy cost.  different climates require different techniques though.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 7, 2019)

kb58 said:


> On the site I recommended above, some of them are electrical engineers who've installed their own systems. They did a TON of monitoring and computations, finding that solar is a real mixed bag as far is being a net positive. There's cost of the equipment, installation cost (if not done yourself), daily exposure, equipment reliability, degradation over time, electrical pricing tiers, time of use (TOU) policies, etc.
> 
> Their strong advice is a bit surprising: consider simply using less power instead of installing solar. This is extremely telling, having people who "been there done that" came to the conclusion it may not be worthwhile.



During the evaluation for switching from generator to solar at the station I worked at, one of the things that was done, was having an electrical engineer evaluate the current lighting, appliances, HVAC etc. More efficient appliances means less power required. The cost of new appliances in some cases can be more than offset by the savings from reducing the amount of power generation required.

In that particular case, since the station was already on a generator, efficiency was pretty high, but one area we hadn't expected to change was due to the batteries. Our estimates for the solar field was based on the size of the current generator. The generator was oversized  to handle the starting load of the HVAC. They were able to significantly downsize the solar field from our estimate, because the battery system was able to absorb the brief power spike caused when the HVAC started.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 7, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> I have told my brother to take the number of panels he's been planning on using and double or even quadruple it- not sure if he believes me yet
> but I keep trying



That certainly is smarter than buying powerwalls.


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## markba633csi (Jul 8, 2019)

Well, powerwalls are fine if you have the panel capacity to keep them charged, and can afford them


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 8, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Well, powerwalls are fine if you have the panel capacity to keep them charged, and can afford them


Nope. Do the math. specially concerning capacity, lifetime and guarantee.


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## Cadillac (Jul 8, 2019)

First thanks everyone for all the great responses. I knew you guys would be good to kick this around. It’s brought up honestly so many thing I didn’t even think of.
To answer acouple questions I remember, If I did it I would be tied to the grid. I do have gas I live 1 mile south of  Chicago city limits so it’s densely congested. The house was built in 54 I bought in 12 and gutted it to the studs. Insulated the walls which it had none to a r13. Then when I sided I put up a r3 I believe foam board before the vinyl siding. My ceiling joist had alittle blown in so I came in and filled the joist with blow in then took a r25 unfaced and went opposite of joist. Then I put shoots in the rafter bays and insulated from eve to peak with a r19 faced insulation.
When I installed the furnace and ac I gutted the old system ran all new ductwork. Which I sealed every joint and seam personally with a duct sealer then taped. All my ductwork and plenums are insulated the system is tight.
My garage is fully insulated just like the house it’s a detached 3 car. I haven’t put a gas furnace in yet. My good friend gave me a new Dayton 220v electric heater last year for the garage. I didn’t want to use it but havent got the one I want yet and wanted to keep the garage warm during the winter months for the sake of my tools and all the other stuff that goes with winterizing a garage full of waxes and liquid that will separate or freeze. Granted Chicago had a frosty of a winter a lot of -digits for a week or single digits for weeks. Well keeping my garage at 50* almost tripled my electric bill those four months. I will not do that again this winter that infared heater will be installed before winter. Wish I did radiant from the start oh well.
My ultimate goal is to get my home as efficient as I can which will help with everything down the road. Looking into solar I thought would be the next step. With some of the good points brought up I don’t think I use enough electricity to make it beneficial. I don’t know what a full system would cost but I’m the type that would find the products and do myself once well informed and confident. I have three great electricians I know just not experienced in solar but in large ups systems, residential, and industrial no experience in solar. But not having a cert. contractor will probably make me loose all the federal and state rebates so that’s a downside. Someone threw a number out there and if the going rate is 40k I was really off from thinking in the lines of 10-15k for a system. A lot of thinking and typing I needs a rest thanks again guys for the info.


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## Boswell (Jul 8, 2019)

The only thing I would add is that with a micro-inverter system the only overhead cost is the installation and each panel will pay for itself (over some amount of time). So only the solar disconnect and some wiring are the only cost that have to be amortized over the panels. In other words, for a DIY system, if you use Grid Tied Micro Inverter panels, you might find that you can install just a few panels effectively and then add more over time if you feel it is warranted.  Every kWh from solar is a kWh you don't pay the electric company for. Agreen it might be tougher to get rebate on the installation but should not be a problem for all of the material including the panels.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 8, 2019)

Cadillac said:


> First thanks everyone for all the great responses. I knew you guys would be good to kick this around. It’s brought up honestly so many thing I didn’t even think of.
> To answer acouple questions I remember, If I did it I would be tied to the grid. I do have gas I live 1 mile south of  Chicago city limits so it’s densely congested. The house was built in 54 I bought in 12 and gutted it to the studs. Insulated the walls which it had none to a r13. Then when I sided I put up a r3 I believe foam board before the vinyl siding. My ceiling joist had alittle blown in so I came in and filled the joist with blow in then took a r25 unfaced and went opposite of joist. Then I put shoots in the rafter bays and insulated from eve to peak with a r19 faced insulation.
> When I installed the furnace and ac I gutted the old system ran all new ductwork. Which I sealed every joint and seam personally with a duct sealer then taped. All my ductwork and plenums are insulated the system is tight.
> My garage is fully insulated just like the house it’s a detached 3 car. I haven’t put a gas furnace in yet. My good friend gave me a new Dayton 220v electric heater last year for the garage. I didn’t want to use it but havent got the one I want yet and wanted to keep the garage warm during the winter months for the sake of my tools and all the other stuff that goes with winterizing a garage full of waxes and liquid that will separate or freeze. Granted Chicago had a frosty of a winter a lot of -digits for a week or single digits for weeks. Well keeping my garage at 50* almost tripled my electric bill those four months. I will not do that again this winter that infared heater will be installed before winter. Wish I did radiant from the start oh well.
> My ultimate goal is to get my home as efficient as I can which will help with everything down the road. Looking into solar I thought would be the next step. With some of the good points brought up I don’t think I use enough electricity to make it beneficial. I don’t know what a full system would cost but I’m the type that would find the products and do myself once well informed and confident. I have three great electricians I know just not experienced in solar but in large ups systems, residential, and industrial no experience in solar. But not having a cert. contractor will probably make me loose all the federal and state rebates so that’s a downside. Someone threw a number out there and if the going rate is 40k I was really off from thinking in the lines of 10-15k for a system. A lot of thinking and typing I needs a rest thanks again guys for the info.



If you don't use enough electricity (or pay enough for it) to make solar viable then you should not do it. However for a small installation, your 15-18K figure is very reasonable, and if you get the 30% tax credit this year, it would pay for professional installation (which I would highly recommend if only for the warranty). 

Google has mapped every roof in America and can tell you a lot about sun-hours and slope direction. 

Remember it is a mistake to buy more solar than you need unless you get a KWh for KWh return from your utility, but I think it is an even bigger mistake to buy batteries as a good utility company is the best battery (it is 100% efficient).


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## mikey (Jul 8, 2019)

davidcarmichael said:


> ... but I think it is an even bigger mistake to buy batteries as a good utility company is the best battery (it is 100% efficient).



Curious why you say this. What happens in a big storm and the grid goes down? Batteries can be a very good thing to have.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 8, 2019)

mikey said:


> Curious why you say this. What happens in a big storm and the grid goes down? Batteries can be a very good thing to have.



Simple. When the grid goes down conventional solar is dead. This includes all "Powerwall" like systems. 
To run your solar without the grid your have to spend a LOT of money. You are much better off with a gas generator.


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## mikey (Jul 8, 2019)

When the grid goes down in my area, my home is powered by the batteries. This is the main reason I opted for batteries and it works. No more running to the store for ice when the power goes down for a day or more.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 8, 2019)

you can get disconnects to turn a grid-tie solar set up into a standalone one if you have battery storage, but they're not commonly installed . Typically the power company doesn't want the risk of backfeeding into the grid when linemen are working on it.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 8, 2019)

mikey said:


> When the grid goes down in my area, my home is powered by the batteries. This is the main reason I opted for batteries and it works. No more running to the store for ice when the power goes down for a day or more.



What did it cost for batteries, grid disconnect, inverter(s) charge controllers, installation, utility approvals, etc, and how much storage (KWh) are we talking about?


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## Cadillac (Jul 8, 2019)

That was one of my questions. So I have solar the power goes out their would have to be some sort of switch gear like in a back up gen to disconnect you from the meter so you can hopefully run your essentials. Then you’d need a bank of batteries or ten. My guess is you’d need like a porta potti sized shed for all the controls and batteries. 
 I don’t know if this house is worth all that time   Maybe the next one.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 8, 2019)

Cadillac said:


> First thanks everyone for all the great responses. I.....A lot of thinking and typing I needs a rest thanks again guys for the info.



sounds like you've done pretty much everything that can be done! Couple of Qs - what do you mean by putting shoots in the rafter bays? Is that insulating between the rafters that the roof is nailed to? Also, only thing I can think of to improve your energy efficiency is to put in a heat recovery unit plumb all the externally ducted vents/ fans into that, so you use the warm outgoing air to heat up the incoming air that's replacing it. I think they even do small units for clothes driers.

Our cooling bill went down noticeably after fixing all the thin patches of insulation in the attic and various ceiling air leaks, where hot air was being pulled into the house from the attic. Recently replaced some external vents (drier, pantry fan and range ran) so that they were properly connected and sealed, but haven't gone through a full summer yet to see if that made any difference. Probably, but there are enough other variables that it will be hard to tell. I certainly do appreciate being inside when it's 100F outside though!


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 8, 2019)

Cadillac said:


> That was one of my questions. So I have solar the power goes out their would have to be some sort of switch gear like in a back up gen to disconnect you from the meter so you can hopefully run your essentials. Then you’d need a bank of batteries or ten. My guess is you’d need like a porta potti sized shed for all the controls and batteries.
> I don’t know if this house is worth all that time   Maybe the next one.



it gets to be a case of diminishing returns. In terms of dollar spent for unit of power station generation reduced, energy efficiency has the biggest bang for the buck along with changing energy habits. Home solar is super neat, but a relatively inefficient way of reducing fossil fuel use. The big solar arrays, wind turbine fields and grid interconnects are where it's at.


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## mikey (Jul 8, 2019)

davidcarmichael said:


> What did it cost for batteries, grid disconnect, inverter(s) charge controllers, installation, utility approvals, etc, and how much storage (KWh) are we talking about?



I'd have to go look that up but the inverters installation, etc would be there without the batteries. A few more things to connect the batteries but not much more. The batteries are expensive so you have to figure that into your cost estimate but I am in Hawaii, which is subject to hurricanes and running out of power in the event of a big storm is a real thing here. Around here, when the power goes down, my house is the only one on the street that is lit up so I know for a fact that modern battery networks work without a working grid. 

In my opinion, it is a far better option than a gas generator that is noisy, must be maintained and requires you to keep gas treated at all times. Two of my friends bought batteries and sold their gas generators so I think they agree, too.


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## davidcarmichael (Jul 8, 2019)

mikey said:


> I'd have to go look that up but the inverters installation, etc would be there without the batteries. A few more things to connect the batteries but not much more. The batteries are expensive so you have to figure that into your cost estimate but I am in Hawaii, which is subject to hurricanes and running out of power in the event of a big storm is a real thing here. Around here, when the power goes down, my house is the only one on the street that is lit up so I know for a fact that modern battery networks work without a working grid.
> 
> In my opinion, it is a far better option than a gas generator that is noisy, must be maintained and requires you to keep gas treated at all times. Two of my friends bought batteries and sold their gas generators so I think they agree, too.



Hawaii yes, suburban Chicago no.


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## kb58 (Jul 9, 2019)

Yeah there's a big point that always gets glossed over. Everyone assumes that if they have solar, that when there's a blackout, they'll still have power. NO!

Most systems are designed to shut down automatically if the grid goes down. Yes, if you have batteries, you're good. There are also a very few inverters that will continue to power a separate plug.

Like people keep saying, a battery-backed system is very expensive,.and may make the overall system impossible to break even on. You have to do the numbers.


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## mikey (Jul 9, 2019)

Cadillac said:


> That was one of my questions. So I have solar the power goes out their would have to be some sort of switch gear like in a back up gen to disconnect you from the meter so you can hopefully run your essentials. Then you’d need a bank of batteries or ten. My guess is you’d need like a porta potti sized shed for all the controls and batteries.
> I don’t know if this house is worth all that time   Maybe the next one.



I forgot to comment on this, Cadillac. I think there is one additional charge controller box next to the batteries, maybe a foot long and 10" wide, that controls input/output from the batteries. The batteries are each 6" thick, about 30" wide and 45" high. I have two, one mounted in front of the other so it is a sandwich a foot thick. The controller monitors current flow and when the power from the grid is interrupted the batteries kick in within 3-5 milliseconds, hardly enough to cause the lights to blink. No interruption of power and two batteries can keep my house powered for about a day and a half if I only power the essentials. Then they charge up the next day if I have sufficient sunlight. 

Batteries are not for everyone. They are expensive and have a limited lifespan but for some of us, it is a good choice. This is especially true if someone in the home has a medical device that MUST run, grid or no grid.


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## mksj (Jul 9, 2019)

The choice of going solar is complicated by many factors, if you only plan to be in your house for less than 10 years, then for the most part it is probably not cost effective. It becomes even more complicated depending on your power company supplier and their rate tier system for energy use and also what they determine to be peak use hours. This can often extend far into the evening long after the sun goes down, so if you have an AC unit that goes on and you are cooking with an electric oven, you may get hit with a heavy peak use charge. This was common in Arizona, in particular in the Phoenix area. This is the primary reason for the use of batteries systems is too offset the peak usage during the time frames that your power company is charging exorbitant rates for peak use during these time periods. The use of batteries as a sole form of power generation in an outage or off grid is a very expensive proposition, when I looked into it something like 7K for the batteries and with installation like 15K. Add that to the solar system install and you better live in the hose a  long time to get your money's worth. Batteries have a finite lifespan and charge cycle expiration, so plan on replacing them in 7-10 years.

If you have power outages, then most people opt. for a generator with a transfer switch, size and fuel source is dependent on the house load, duration of outages and if you have NG or propane. The transfer switch is usually at the service entrance, and the transfer time is around 30 seconds to a minute. I installed a NG generator at one of my houses, it worked quite well but you are looking at around 15-20K for a 20-25kW generator with transfer switch and installation. Typically I recommend Kohler and Onan, as being quiet low speed units.

As far as the choice of solar panels and  inverters, well you better do your homework and be extremely careful of the financing options. A lot of people end up paying more for lease systems, or very high interest rates. I currently have a 5kW solar system on my house in San Diego, and the system trues up once a year and you pay or get payed based on the yearly total. I will probably end up paying the power company $400 when it trues up. I have converted the whole house to LED, and cook/heat with propane. This year has been unusually overcast but on a good day the system will produce 30kW/h. Bottom line the system is marginal and long term I am adding another string of solar panels for an additional 3kW, one set of panels face south the new one will be facing west. A westward facing  solar array will produce about 80% of the output of a south facing array, but it will generate peak power later in the afternoon often when the AC units may be operational. If you are in a part of the US that you have a lot of overcast days, then solar may not be a cost effective option.

As far as solar panel recommendations, I would look at the higher output Monocrystalline / N-type solar panels in the 320-340W/panel range as the most bang for the buck. These are typically 60 cell panels like LG, SolarWorld, REC, and the Panasonic are 96 cell panels. These typical have a 25 year warranty on output and manufacturing defects. The newer panels have less degradation year to year and also the output is less effected with increasing temperature. Since solar panels output DC, you need to convert it to AC for typical 120/240VAC household use. There are basically two predominate systems out there, one by Solar Edge which uses a DC optimizer on each panel and a central inverter or Enpahse which uses an AC microinverter for each solar panel. The latter being a bit simpler, and a bit more cost effective. The microinverters use to have some reliability issues, but the current generation IQ series is very reliable and has a 25 year replacement warranty. The IQ microinverter series are currently the 7's, the IQ8 is due out the end of this year. The Enpahse IQ systems (and I assume the SolarEdge) do integrate pretty seamless with battery storage systems, but the use of batteries is an evolving technology as to an integrated system.

Price wise, get several bids and know what they are selling you and check their reviews online. If you get a low ball bid, there is probably a reason for it. That being said, the solar industry is pretty much price fixed and the installation is stupidly high for the amount of work. So say you want to put in an 8kW system, the hardware/components will run around 8-10K, the installed system you are probably looking at around 27K (~$/w 3.40) before any tax credit (assumes you can write this off which may not always be the case). Pricing structure may change as the tax credits go away and also the power companies rates change to offset the use of residential solar power. Also if you do not have a professional electrician install your solar system, in most cases the warranty on the components will not be honored by the manufacture's.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 10, 2019)

Cadillac said:


> My ultimate goal is to get my home as efficient as I can which will help with everything down the road. Looking into solar I thought would be the next step. With some of the good points brought up I don’t think I use enough electricity to make it beneficial.



This is one of the ironies to solar / wind / hydro power at the point of use. The first step is to make your house as energy efficient as possible, but once that is done it often makes the next step of actually producing power on site much less attractive, because the cost savings have been greatly reduced along with consumption.


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## mikey (Jul 11, 2019)

My electrician tells me that switching all the lights in the house to LED and using a PV-powered water heater will significantly reduce your electric bill. He also recommended disconnecting any wall warts that do not have to be plugged in. I'm mostly there on the LED thing and have done the water heater and wall warts so I'm almost entirely independent of the grid.


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## Asm109 (Jul 11, 2019)

We installed a 7.5 kW system 3 years ago. Paid 25k cash.  We are in southern California and got in before a deadline where we get net metering.
Once a year we settle up financially with the power company.  First year we produced more electricity in every month except Jan and Feb.  
Second year we turned on the AC in June with the stat set to 74.  Turned it off in October.  That year we ended up owing $60 for the year. This year we have been using the AC sparingly and expect another $0 year.  I may need to replace the gas dryer and water heater with electric to use up some of my excess capacity.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 11, 2019)

mikey said:


> My electrician tells me that switching all the lights in the house to LED and using a PV-powered water heater will significantly reduce your electric bill. He also recommended disconnecting any wall warts that do not have to be plugged in. I'm mostly there on the LED thing and have done the water heater and wall warts so I'm almost entirely independent of the grid.



from memory lighting is ~10% of household consumption, water heating is 10-20%, cooking/ cleaning is 10-20% and the rest is heating/ cooling. So going from incandescent to LED, assuming the same usage pattern, will reduce your bill by ~8% on average. Going from CFL to LED will only net you a small reduction (1% or so), but you'll get much nicer light and longer lived bulbs, in general.

All our lights are LED and I think it helps, but it's one of those "small but additive" improvements, like putting new seals on external doors, shading windows, fixing attic leaks and the like. They all add up, but individually they're still small beans compared to turning up the thermostat in summer or throwing on some warmer clothes in winter


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## matthewsx (Jul 11, 2019)

I would like to weigh in on this topic even though we don't currently have solar at our home. We did have a solar pool heater when we lived in Arizona though but this conversation isn't really about that.

My father-in-law built his up-north dream cottage about 40 years ago, being an "engineer" he designed the roof to have optimum angles for solar panel placement. Also being an "engineer" he has periodically done the payback calculations that kept him from ever installing a system even though he could have afforded it. There are plenty of good references and anecdotal evidence already in this thread to help with calculations on how much solar to install and how to figure payback rates, it's basically just arithmetic.

However, I would argue that there is a much more important factor to consider. The US is the largest energy consumer per-capita in the world, we have also recently become the largest producers of fossil fuels. There is no questioning that burning fossil fuels produces byproducts that will have an effect on our planet long past any of our lifetimes (please don't take this as an invitation to try to get into political debate with me, I won't bite). There's also no questioning that solar and wind power generation has increased in efficiency and dropped in cost significantly in recent years.

So, if your motivation for going solar is purely economic and only related to how much you will have to spend for energy over X number of years you can do a calculation like my father-in-law did and make a decision based on that information. If however you believe that being blessed with the wealth to make such a decision, it should be based at least partially on the perceived or actual benefit to others on our planet even after you are no longer with us you can factor that in as well.

Make your decision however you want but IMHO, having the power to make choices that benefit others is a blessing not to be taken for granted.


Cheers,

john


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## C-Bag (Jul 11, 2019)

I've wanted to go solar since the 70's but was never in one place long enough and the cost was too high. 3yrs ago we needed a new car and I bumbled onto the Chevy Volt. It sounded like the best of both worlds as a plug in hybrid which means for the first 50-60mi depending on how you drive it's an electric car, not a typical hybrid which cycles the engine all the time. This has been a boon as we didn't even put any gas in the bitty 8gal tank for the first month and a half and 1,500mi. we had it. By its internal info 85% of the time it's running pure electric and over the life of the car we are averaging 162mpg. We now have 50,000mi and except for 2 oil changes(first one free from the dealer, the second I did) there has been no problems at all. I was skeptical as this is my first American car so we leased and when the lease was up just bought it. 

But this also upped our power bill from about $65mo to around $140. I was using the 110v charger and it was taking 8hrs to fully charge as the car could be programmed to defer charging after 11pm when the rates go down. But it was was just barely through charging by 7am when my wife left for work. Pre Volt we were below where it's cost effective to go solar, now we were in range. My wife found a deal where they would install a top of the line 3.5kw system and throw in the 220v power station. They contracted with a local that I've heard nothing but good installer and when they came and did the inspection they took one look at my service panel that was junk and needed to be replaced and said that would be replaced as part of the original cost. I'd had it priced and low was $1800, high was $3200. 

With the rebates it was less than $10k, we paid cash. I wish we'd gone bigger as our true up is $600 a year. We have lots of overcast here but according to the installers they love installs here because the output is good because of the moderate temps. I asked the installers what if I just went with you guys. They said they didn't even have access to the panels I was getting because you had to deal in volume and they were higher quality than the ones they used and same for the inverter. They all said they didn't know how these guys did it especially after replacing the service panel and the power station. 

Reading through everybody's responses has been interesting and the whole ROI idea. I don't see how there is ever a ROI with just being hooked to the grid but I can see like in my case until your usage is above a certain point it makes no sense to go solar. It should be noted the first guy on our street to go solar works for Pacific Gas & Electric and has a 10kw system and just bought a Tesla with plans to get one for his wife when her car needs to be replaced. I don't know if he has a Powerwall, but I'd like to go that way someday too.


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## mikey (Jul 11, 2019)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> from memory lighting is ~10% of household consumption, water heating is 10-20%, cooking/ cleaning is 10-20% and the rest is heating/ cooling. So going from incandescent to LED, assuming the same usage pattern, will reduce your bill by ~8% on average. Going from CFL to LED will only net you a small reduction (1% or so), but you'll get much nicer light and longer lived bulbs, in general.
> 
> All our lights are LED and I think it helps, but it's one of those "small but additive" improvements, like putting new seals on external doors, shading windows, fixing attic leaks and the like. They all add up, but individually they're still small beans compared to turning up the thermostat in summer or throwing on some warmer clothes in winter



I think it depends on the situation. My house has a lot of lighting because my wife is legally blind and needs light everywhere so she can sort of see. Switching to LED was made because of the better light output and whiter light and less about cost. Still, it helpsl her so I would have done it in any case. 

Part of my decision to go solar was as John said, to go greener. I also plan to purchase an electric vehicle at some point. I was ready to go with Tesla until they began to run into financial/other difficulties. Now I need to reassess. 

Going solar is expensive but for me, it was the right choice.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 11, 2019)

no disagreement here! I like LEDs for their instant on and better colour rendition, the power savings are an extra bonus.

I also agree with people above, including yourself, that have installed solar for personal reasons aside from financial ones. Once you introduce that, then the value or not is really down to you - if you value it, that's good enough. There's no way we could afford solar outright, so any investment in it would have to be offset by cuts elsewhere and it would have to be justified on financial grounds, whatever the environmental benefit. As it is, I'm first trying to pick all the low hanging fruit 

Obviously, a plug in hybrid or full battery electric vehicle changes the metric considerably if you drive alot.

Personally, I'd be down with paying extra on my bill to get some of the electricity we use (ok, I know it doesn't work that way, but you know what I mean) from renewable sources, but that's not an option where we live unfortunately.


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## C-Bag (Jul 11, 2019)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> Personally, I'd be down with paying extra on my bill to get some of the electricity we use (ok, I know it doesn't work that way, but you know what I mean) from renewable sources, but that's not an option where we live unfortunately.



Weird. I saw a doc a while ago where there was a guy getting farmers in west Texas to put in wind gens because they could make more $$ than farming. 

The tech I'm waiting to see how it shakes out is this flow battery by a co. In Australia called Z Cell


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## Janderso (Jul 11, 2019)

Wow, a compelling case for solar.
Just think where this technology will be in 20 years.


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## Buffalo21 (Jul 11, 2019)

My nephew installed a solar power system, as part of a major university subsidized energy study, involving 35 houses. He said it works, but just barely, he worked it out to about 35-40 year payback. They had numerous meetings, with 2 or 3 engineers setting around the kitchen table, going over blueprints, computer read outs and numerous charts. The nephew said he wished he never got involved, 

I’ve been ask a couple of times to be involved in a rounds of testings, the last thing I want is people in ant out of my house, controlling my energy usages, based on their projections and schedules.


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## cathead (Jul 11, 2019)

I have been experimenting with off grid solar for a few years.  In the winter, the panels need to be almost vertical or the
snow covers them up completely.  The other thing is that you need a LOT of batteries to store a meaningful amount
of energy, not to mention that batteries have a finite service life.  I have come to the conclusion that it is not a paying
proposition but possibly useful short term in an emergency.  Panels have a finite lifetime as well so all that glitters is
not gold...

Also, a grid tie system has a large monthly charge around here so that is not very practical either.........


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## Superburban (Jul 11, 2019)

If you get close, be sure to read ALL the documents. We looked at buying a house that had solar installed. The owners, and realtor insisted that the deal was they pay a set amount for their electric bill( less then they were paying for electric), and after 20 years the system is theirs. I got them to provide me a copy of the documents, and it clearly said that after the 20 years, they can pay (I'm thinking $10K) for the system, or the company will remove it. I guess if they let it be taken out in the 20 years, they still saved a ton on their bill, but the solar company also got the rebate and what ever for the system.

I'm not keen on the idea of owning something connected to the internet, that someone else has control of everything.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 13, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Weird. I saw a doc a while ago where there was a guy getting farmers in west Texas to put in wind gens because they could make more $$ than farming.
> 
> The tech I'm waiting to see how it shakes out is this flow battery by a co. In Australia called Z Cell



for sure, Texas is one of if not the largest producer of renewable energy in the US. Lots of wind and cheap land. Go a few hours north of us and you'll see large areas of wind turbines and pump jacks, it's an interesting contrast  However our utility doesn't give any options - you get what you get.

Flow cells have huge potential for utility scale electricity storage. Similar principle in a way to pumped hydroelectric, but for flat landers


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## mickri (Jul 13, 2019)

This afternoon I have been reading about California's ever changing rules on solar power.  Every new solar system in California is now on TOU metering.  Doesn't sound too bad until you get to peak and off peak hours.  The utility companies are pushing for peak hours to start later in the afternoon and to last well past sunset when solar panels will not be generating any electricity.  TOU rates and peak verses off peak hours are currently in a state of flux waiting on rulings from the California Public Utilities Commission sometime this year.  It is looking like you will need a much larger system to generate power during the off peak hours to compensate for the higher peak hour electricity rates you will be forced to pay if you have a solar system.  Could be a death blow to solar in California.  Time will tell.


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## AustinVaughan (Sep 27, 2021)

Trust me, you won't regret switching to solar panels at all!
Just think how good this is for our environment! First of all, it's renewable! Secondly, absolutely no harmful emissions are released into the air! Third, transforming sunlight into electricity doesn't require any fuel! How great is that? And you will only have to invest once! Have I convinced you yet? If not, please check out this solar panel calculator https://www.solvingsolar.com/solar-panel-calculator/to see how much it will cost you to get them installed. You'll be surprised to find out that it is not as expensive as everybody thinks it is! Go for it!


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## savarin (Sep 27, 2021)

Get the maximum you can afford. I have 6.5KW on my roof and my power bills are very low.
If I could afford it I would add 20K of batteries as well.


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## LaurelChavez (Dec 30, 2022)

Going solar is a great way to become more energy independent and save money on your power bills. It's a great idea to look into, especially if you already have a lot of energy-efficient upgrades in your home. To figure out how much roof space you need for the solar panels, you'll want to consider the size of the solar array you plan to install. Generally speaking, the larger the array, the more roof space you'll need. The average solar panel takes up about 18 square feet of roof space, so if you plan to install a 5-kW system, you can estimate that you'll need about 90 square feet of roof space for the panels.


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## Dan Krager (Dec 30, 2022)

And while considering solar costs, it seems prudent to include costs of hazmat disposal when it is of no other value. It seems to be the asbestos of the future.

DanK


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## RJSakowski (Dec 30, 2022)

There is a lot of advertising in our locale about zero cost to homeowner solar installations.  Basically, the subsidy offsets the down payment on a loan for the installation and the decrease in monthly electric bills makes up for the monthly loan payments and then some.  My wife contacted them for details and we got a follow up call.  

We live in a valley with a hall immediately behind the house to the west.  Consequently, we lose two to six hours of sunlight a day.  We also have a truncated pyramid for a roof which precludes a roof top installation.  The additional cost of a ground level installation plus the shorter solar exposure means that we would be facing a significantly higher cost and longer payback period.   At 78 y.o., it is unlikely that I would see the break even point.

In the other hand, our neighbor up the hill has a virtually unrestricted view of the sky, sunrise to sunset.  She put in a ground based steerable solar array perhaps fifteen years ago.  This past year, she doubled the size of her solar array with a fixed system.  Along with passive solar heating, her intention is to be completely self sufficient, including powering her EV.  She doesn't have battery storage so she can't go completely off the grid but the EV can do double duty for her as an excess energy storage device.  I'm not sure if she has the ability to draw energy from the EV though  The revised system has been in place for several months now and I need to talk with her as to whether it has met her expectations.


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## CluelessNewB (Dec 30, 2022)

We added a 14.5 kW array 3 years ago.  It is grid connected no battery backup (yet).  So far it has exceeded the original estimates and our current bills are $13 month charge for the grid connection.  We are currently generating slightly more power than we use.  At the current rate we will be breaking even several years ahead of schedule.  We are lucky that the back of our house is very close to the ideal angle for the panels.


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## Weldingrod1 (Dec 30, 2022)

I'm looking forward to the dcbel bi-directional charger! It will let me tap my 40 kwhr Leaf battery!

Worth looking into! They are already selling in a few markets...

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Eddyde (Dec 30, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> And while considering solar costs, it seems prudent to include costs of hazmat disposal when it is of no other value. It seems to be the asbestos of the future.
> 
> DanK


With all respect, I believe you are misinformed. Solar panels are mostly made of silicone, a relatively harmless element. The storage batteries are recyclable. Beyond that, the electronics and switch gear contain nothing out of the ordinary.


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## RJSakowski (Dec 30, 2022)

Eddyde said:


> With all respect, I believe you are misinformed. Solar panels are mostly made of silicone, a relatively harmless element. The storage batteries are recyclable. Beyond that, the electronics and switch gear contain nothing out of the ordinary.


Solar panels are considered by the EPA as hazardous waste.  In the case of crystalline silicon solar panels, the vast majority,, this is primarily due to small amounts of lead and cadmium.  Apparently the thin film solar sheets have some other obnoxious elements.  

Reading through the EPA rules, it appeared to me that the primary purpose was to prevent wholesale dumping of spent solar panels into landfills but rather to disassemble them and harvest the various components and materials.  Needless to say, California is one of the few states with regulations regarding solar panel disposal.  Considering that they regulate sales of a milling machine because the brass used in some of the bushings contains lead, it isn't surprising. 

IMO, the fear of trace lead is overdone.  Lead in a form that can be ingested or inhaled is dangerous but lead salts are some of the least soluble of all the metals.  40% of all residences in Milwaukee, WI still have lead service pipes.  But I live in a  state whose first permanent European settlements were lead miners and region of the state where galena (lead sulfide) could be picked off the ground.The small amount of lead  contained in a solar panel is negligible by comparison.

Anyway, as more solar panels begin to phase out, I expect that there will bee a whole industry based around salvage of them.


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