# PM-932M-PDF experience



## Ratz

It was a long time coming, but finally I made a choice to purchase PM-932M-PDF Gear head milling machine end of last year.
<o>
Time was mostly spent on acquiring tools and accessories to be able to do some work. Being a perfectionist installing Easson ES 12 DRO was quite a undertaking. Also found a nice LED powerful lamp.
<o>
Not new to PM products as I purchased PM1236 lathe from Matt at <st1ersonname w:st="on">Quality Machine Tools</st1ersonname> around 2 years ago. Few modifications there as well. I will likely do a little post as well.
<o>
Like with any Asian built machine a lot of time was spent taking things apart making sure they were clean and lubricated. If you would ask my opinion about the mill couple month ago I would likely give it a thumbs down. At one point I believed the purchase was a mistake. On the bright side most of the shortcomings were resolved and I am able to perform most of the work to my satisfaction. I would like to remind everyone that I am extremely fussy about my machinery and my tools.
<o>
Lets not forget who the market is for this type of machinery. No production shop would even consider them. I on the other hand am grateful, as were there not machinery in this price range I would not own one at all. Especially in here <st1Western Canada where used worn out machinery goes fot top dollar. </st1
<o>
Enough of the philosophy and to the point.
<o>
I think PM-932M-PDF is a good piece of gear powerful enough for my type of work. Just the other day I was turning 4” face mill with 6 inserts on a steel block and was very happy with the result. Yesterday I was milling 1” aluminum with extra length end mill with precision that I was not able to accomplish when I first got the machine.
<o>
Here is a partial list of shortcomings which I observed, got used to and or coirrected.
<o>
Tilting the gear head is a pain and tramming it back to acceptable level is even worse. It would so much nicer to have a bolt in the casting to slowly and precisely move the gear head into alignment. (I am working on that one).
<o>
What I know today, I would not attempt to run a mill without taking the feed box completely apart right down to pinion shaft as the feedbox didn’t feel very smooth in operation. I ended up removing the whole feedbox as the girt and sand I found in it made me feel sick. I left the pinion shaft in as the bearings were sealed and appeared good. There were some small springs and tiny parts to keep things interesting. 
I made some improvements by fabricating shims of different size. After I cleaned, lubricated and assembled the feedbox I ended up with a very different machine. This was the turning point for me.
<o>
This cleaning however; did not correct what I thought to be excessive backlash in manual feed handle. I found pocket milling just about impossible. The included quill DRO was indicating random numbers on different part of the scale (I found out since that few people experience that) it was a joke. Manual scale was another surprise one full turn is 0.110”. One can get used to that but the gearing was likely converted from metric to imperial and it has a 5% error (in my machine anyway). The good thing if you want to call it that is that the 5% error is constant and is negative, so you can mill some more material without spoiling your work.
<o>
This part was easy. Quill DRO went to the rubbish bin and new 3” travel gauge with 3” diameter large face was installed. Finally I knew where the quill was.
<o>
What followed was worse. The backlash in the manual feed turned out to be a backlash between the pinion shaft and the spindle. I believe in the end it turned out to be 0.070”. This can be found by moving feed operation handle outwards and lower the spindle little distance. Now without locking the spindle grab it with your hand and push it up. It weights 18 lbs. My mill went up 0.030 “ by hand but under load it reached 0.070”. This did not have any ill effect if surface milling as once the work was cleared, one could lower the spindle, lock it in place and carry on. Now in pocket milling of harder material the spindle was floating around within the backlash limits causing unpredictable results. Not good in machining.
<o>
I know you will say, lock the spindle and move the gear head down, That is a proper way to do it. Well not exactly as new issues arise. Knee end mill anyone? Bring the work up to the spindle, would be nice. No chance we have a gear head mill.
<o>
Using the power feed is unthinkable, as moves are uncontrolled and jumpy. Using the crank to lower the gear head is not precise enough for me. Jumpy moves are too large, gearing is just not right.
<o>
Thinking about the knee end mill got me motivated that all I have to do is overcome the gravity and make the mill work on the other side of the backlash.
<o>
Thinking about the poor gearing on gear head crank got me motivated to pursue another idea.
<o>
So now I had to come up with two solutions. Improve the gearing for the gear head crank and/or modify spindle to work on the other side of the backlash.
<o>
To overcome the gravity I dreamed up a new return spring. Let the pictures speak. The spring is 5/8OD with0.082 wire. The pulleys are small ball bearings with pressed on bronze with concave shape to accept diameter of the spring.
<o>
To overcome the clumsy crank location with different gearing I used 1 to 2 chain sprockets and 40 chain. The sprockets ratio can be change in the future should I find the ratio unsatisfactory. The chain is then controlled by US made Andantex R3350 Anglgear with ¾” shaft. Since it takes 71 inch pounds to move the shaft I chose the R3350. The little gear is driven by 5/8” diameter W-1 drill rod (no particular reason just had it around the shop) Coupled by US made Lovejoy universal joint. Shaft is fixed in a bearing on the outer end and rotated by 9.5” hand wheel located beside present Y axis hand wheel. Let the picture speak again. This modification just happened so I can expand on it later.
<o>
Should there be someone (eccentric and anal like me) interested in this project, I will be happy to provide more information and I still have couple of “U” joints left.
<o>
As far as I am concerned, the spring modification was well worth it as without it I would likely got rid of the machine. 
<ohew:>
Here is the link to my website for closer look at some interesting clean up process. http://www3.telus.net/oceanready/PM-932M-PDF.pdf

Cheers to all.













<o></o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o</o


----------



## darkzero

Nice work, very interesting mods. That's the first time I have ever seen a dial indicator used for the quill, the thought never even crossed my mind. I'm set with my quill DRO though.


----------



## zmotorsports

Nice work and upgrades but that is not exactly what I wanted to hear about the quality.

I too and very fussy and particular about my equipment, tools, shop, vehicles, home and everything else.  The main two reasons I did not purchase older American machinery was, 1, I live in a machinery desert and the smaller home shop sized equipment simply doesn't exist and 2, I need the equipment to make parts and money.  I didn't want to purchase a worn out piece of machinery and then spend several more thousand dollars and several months getting the equipment to my standards.

Thanks for the report but this is actually the first negative I have heard or read about pertaining to this machine or the 45M.  

Again, not exactly what I wanted to hear.

Mike.


----------



## Ray C

Nice customizations....

A few things...  The machine has an ACME screw to drive the head up/down and it's not recommended to do plunge Z-cuts by digging-in that way.  The recommended procedure is to get the head close to the material and use the spindle to cut into the material.  You're indeed correct, the machine wasn't designed for head plunge cutting.  The PM 45  CNC can do this because it has ball screws in the column. 

It is unfortunate that the factory doesn't do a good job of keeping things glean.  Matt has tried for years to get them to address this but the outcome is hit-or-miss.  The assembly lines do a reasonable job in the critical areas (inside the gearbox) but, I think they smooth-out the casting with grinding wheels after the unit is assembled and that exposes all the greased parts to grit.  If Matt and crew cleaned each and every of the thousands of machines that are sold every year, the cost would go up a good 15-20%... Most folks ask for a 15% discount during the sales process so, it's unlikely such a price increase would be tolerated.

In any event, I'm glad the machine is functioning well for you and serving your purpose.  That style of mill has been around for well over 20 years and it's passing the test of time.  Matt has been selling them for over 10 years (and more than half go to machine shops) averaging several hundred machines per year and has never had a serious problem with one that couldn't be resolved.

Ray


----------



## chuckorlando

That spring mod is pretty slick.

It is possible you got one that fell through the cracks. I have no experience but it seems most are pretty happy with them.


----------



## Ratz

zmotorsports said:


> Nice work and upgrades but that is not exactly what I wanted to hear about the quality.
> 
> I too and very fussy and particular about my equipment, tools, shop, vehicles, home and everything else. The main two reasons I did not purchase older American machinery was, 1, I live in a machinery desert and the smaller home shop sized equipment simply doesn't exist and 2, I need the equipment to make parts and money. I didn't want to purchase a worn out piece of machinery and then spend several more thousand dollars and several months getting the equipment to my standards.
> 
> Thanks for the report but this is actually the first negative I have heard or read about pertaining to this machine or the 45M.
> 
> Again, not exactly what I wanted to hear.
> 
> Mike.



I was/am in the same kind of situation. I did not want to purchase worn out machine for my small shop. I know the bulky machines are more stable but I simply have no room. My friend purchased old machine and spent considerable amount of time rebuilding it, which is nice if you want a project for retirement. Like you, I have no time, as I run my own business and I use the machine to make parts.</SPAN>

One of the reasons I purchased the machine was on spec and two days on the internet. I do not have the links anymore , but I remember someone said the manual feed handle (the dial wheel in the front was practically useless. I found thee posts about the quill DRO with randomly jumped around. (for me they were also too small to watch as you have to keep an eye on the work). I dismissed all this. and went ahead.</SPAN>

Having said that I am now enjoying the mill and am familiar with the inner workings which enables me to better judgment of what the mill is capable. I expect a machine (and the operator) to make a part to 0.0005” tolerance and I have no issues to achieve that. It is unfortunate it took so long to get there.</SPAN>

I did not feel good about all the shortcomings in the beginning, and wished someone had gone through this before. Instead I had to dream up all the fixes.</SPAN>

That is the main reason I wrote about my experience. Maybe my mill was a reject and it is a isolated case. I do not know. I just hope it helps someone like me.</SPAN>

The good news is that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and I would not give up my mill at this time.


Sorry if I made you feel bad, however do not think there is a better machine for the money. They are all the same. 

Radek


----------



## Ray C

Ratz said:


> I was/am in the same kind of situation. I did not want to purchase worn out machine for my small shop. I know the bulky machines are more stable but I simply have no room. My friend purchased old machine and spent considerable amount of time rebuilding it, which is nice if you want a project for retirement. Like you, I have no time, as I run my own business and I use the machine to make parts.
> 
> One of the reasons I purchased the machine was on spec and two days on the internet. I do not have the links anymore , but I remember someone said the manual feed handle (the dial wheel in the front was practically useless. I found thee posts about the quill DRO with randomly jumped around. (for me they were also too small to watch as you have to keep an eye on the work). I dismissed all this. and went ahead.
> 
> Having said that I am now enjoying the mill and am familiar with the inner workings which enables me to better judgment of what the mill is capable. I expect a machine (and the operator) to make a part to 0.0005” tolerance and I have no issues to achieve that. It is unfortunate it took so long to get there.
> 
> I did not feel good about all the shortcomings in the beginning, and wished someone had gone through this before. Instead I had to dream up all the fixes.
> 
> That is the main reason I wrote about my experience. Maybe my mill was a reject and it is a isolated case. I do not know. I just hope it helps someone like me.
> 
> The good news is that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and I would not give up my mill at this time.
> 
> 
> Sorry if I made you feel bad, however do not think there is a better machine for the money. They are all the same.
> 
> Radek



I too feel badly when a machine comes gunked-up.  It should not be that way.  But in any event, all the machines are not the same.  The PM units come with hardened internal gears which is an extra option at the factory.  Also, the motors are outfitted differently with a much higher efficiency unit.  We used to sell the standard motor (on the earliest models of the PM 45) but, found a much better motor in the 80% efficiency range instead of the low 70% range.  The old motors got pretty hot whereas these take hours of use and are only warm to the touch.

As for all the other mods you've done... that's a personal choice -entirely up to you.  There are tens of thousands of those machines in past production and if the basic design were unacceptable they would have gone the way of dinosaurs...

Unfortunately, yes, yours ended-up with grit in the PDF side gears but as mentioned, if each machine were checked to that level, the base price would be far out of line with what people expect to spend.  In days gone by, equipment was sold with a service contract whereby those things could be addressed.  Such a service contract now, would exceed the cost of the machine.  When buying a $75,000 Morie, Mazak or Hass, the situation improves -but I also know plenty of people who've had their fair share of issues with the high end stuff...

The good news here, is that you're machine is working the way you want it to and you've essentially done "After market mods" much the same way folks will buy a Mustang or Corvette and before they drive it around the block, send it off to a custom shop...  It's a free world to do those things and all the aforementioned are good platforms to take as a starting point.

Ray


----------



## Ratz

Ray C said:


> I too feel badly when a machine comes gunked-up. It should not be that way. But in any event, all the machines are not the same. The PM units come with hardened internal gears which is an extra option at the factory. Also, the motors are outfitted differently with a much higher efficiency unit. We used to sell the standard motor (on the earliest models of the PM 45) but, found a much better motor in the 80% efficiency range instead of the low 70% range. The old motors got pretty hot whereas these take hours of use and are only warm to the touch.
> 
> “All the machines are not the same”. You are correct, there are some differences. The motor with aluminum heat sink and cooling fan on top is a nice motor. Hardened gears, certainly.
> <o</o
> Maybe a clarification of my expression - all the machines are the same - deserves to be expanded on. “All the same” is in reference to very high percentage of Chinese products. This phrase evolved from experience of purchasing a lot of Chinese equipment and tooling. Every piece I acquire, I end up stripping down and reassembling with TLC. They are “not the same” as in variation of process making them acceptable to one’s standard. Some need just oiling, some need to shake the sand out, some need to be machined to get rid of the rust. Some even end up in rubbish bin. Yes, they are not the same there is a variation in type of repair. Yes, they are all same, as they all seem to need something.
> 
> As for all the other mods you've done... that's a personal choice -entirely up to you. There are tens of thousands of those machines in past production and if the basic design were unacceptable they would have gone the way of dinosaurs...
> 
> Nowhere did I blame the machine, I simply outlined the experience of shortcomings based on my experience and my requirements. Yes, my mods are a personal choice. However they are out of necessity to manufacture parts with reasonable accuracy. I am simply passing on information to help someone who may have similar needs as myself. I know I would have appreciated any help at the time when I was scratching my head for ideas.
> 
> Unfortunately, yes, yours ended-up with grit in the PDF side gears but as mentioned, if each machine were checked to that level, the base price would be far out of line with what people expect to spend. In days gone by, equipment was sold with a service contract whereby those things could be addressed. Such a service contract now, would exceed the cost of the machine. When buying a $75,000 Morie, Mazak or Hass, the situation improves -but I also know plenty of people who've had their fair share of issues with the high end stuff...
> 
> Unfortunately yes, my PM-932 ended up with the grit. Statement of “If machine were checked to that level the price would be out of line” rings the bell with my statement in the original article. Starting with “Lets not forget who the market is for this type of machinery”. You only get what you pay for, the sand is free.
> <o</o
> I also indicated that it is a partial list of observed shortcomings. So let me expand.
> 
> The feedbox mating surface was machined 0.030” under putting a pressure on the worm gear in power down feed of the quill. Someone’s solution was to cut piece of aluminum from an old scale and shim the feed box away from the gear head to avoid binding.
> 
> This quick fix caused other issues of misalignment like worm shaft to manual feed where I thought the problem was in the fist place. Misalignment of all the <o</oconnecting parts between feed operation handle and pinion shaft.<o</o
> <o
> I measured required dimension and fabricated a shim all around the feedbox which took care of the misalignment.
> 
> Is this how a precision machinery is assembled? I do not think so. Let the attached picture speak for itself.
> <o</o<o
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The good news here, is that you're machine is working the way you want it to and you've essentially done "After market mods" much the same way folks will buy a Mustang or Corvette and before they drive it around the block, send it off to a custom shop... It's a free world to do those things and all the aforementioned are good platforms to take as a starting point.
> 
> Ray




I did get a bit of chuckle over your aftermarket modifications statement. I think the owners of the Corvette or Mustang would take their new cars back to the dealership to get them running in the first place before any aftermarket modifications.

Cheers to all

Radek</o</o


----------



## Ray C

We would probably love it if more folks here were talking about Mori's, Haas and Mazak -I sure would love to know more about them -and even the problems they have...

But nonetheless, in lieu of the replacement machine that was offered (with return shipping) the replacement side-box assembly should be in our hands by now.  It was express shipped from the factory and Matt indicates the tracking number shows delivery at/around today -or sometime extremely soon.

When people have legitimate warranty issues, things get taken care of rather quickly (unlike my last experience with a new car purchased from a new car dealer).


Ray





Ratz said:


> I did get a bit of chuckle over your aftermarket modifications statement. I think the owners of the Corvette or Mustang would take their new cars back to the dealership to get them running in the first place before any aftermarket modifications.
> <o</o
> Thank you for expressing your kind pleasure that my mill is operating to my satisfaction.
> 
> Cheers to all
> 
> Radek


----------



## Ratz

Ray C said:


> We would probably love it if more folks here were talking about Mori's, Haas and Mazak -I sure would love to know more about them -and even the problems they have...
> 
> If someone has a problem with one of the top end machines you are speaking of he/she is in the wrong trade.<o</o
> 
> 
> But nonetheless, in lieu of the replacement machine that was offered (with return shipping) the replacement side-box assembly should be in our hands by now. It was express shipped from the factory and Matt indicates the tracking number shows delivery at/around today -or sometime extremely soon.
> 
> When people have legitimate warranty issues, things get taken care of rather quickly (unlike my last experience with a new car purchased from a new car dealer).
> 
> 
> Ray



Now after your comment of replacement machine, I realize, that I am discussing an issue with Precision Matthews Sales/Support.<o</o
<o</o
Let me make something clear. I like Matt of Quality Machine Tools, being in business myself I am fully aware what is he dealing with. Matt was courteous, generous and anything he does is done with integrity.<o</o
<o</o
Quality Machine Tools was contacted on February 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] with some of the issues discussed in my posting. Matt did acknowledge and took full responsibility of the difficulty. Various options were discussed and one of them was an upgrade to a more expensive mill. I repeat “upgrade to a more expensive mill” including free shipping.<o</o
<o</o
Now, please remember as I have stated, I live in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region> which complicates the matter. I had to pay brokerage fees and taxes when I imported the mill. Be aware that I paid all shipping costs within the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1US</st1</st1:country-region> to my forwarding agent on the west coast. Also, returning the original mill to get an upgraded mill would have been at my cost. 
<o</o
At no time was a replacement machine ever discussed as I had one PM-932M and at the time did not think much of this machine. Matt did offer to replace the feed box to see if it will fix the issue. Matt also offered to replace the spindle DRO.
<o</o
When I asked for complete gear head under warranty there was not much response.<o</o
<o</o

<o</o


----------



## 12bolts

Ratz,
Have you contacted the supplier, and how did that pan out? It would be nice to know if you gave Precision Matthews a chance to respond or address your issues?

Cheers Phil


----------



## Ratz

12bolts said:


> Ratz,
> Have you contacted the supplier, and how did that pan out? It would be nice to know if you gave Precision Matthews a chance to respond or address your issues?
> 
> Cheers Phil





Phil,</SPAN>
The post which describes my version of event was modified by forum moderator. It actually vent of the screen for some time, hence you likely did not see it.</SPAN>

Here is a re-post, Somewhat modified as not to offend anybody.

Now after your comment of replacement machine, I realize, that I am discussing an issue with </SPAN></SPAN>Precision Matthews Sales/Support.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>

Let me make something clear. I like Matt of Quality Machine Tools, being in business myself I am fully aware what is he dealing with. Matt was courteous, generous and anything he does is done with integrity.</SPAN></SPAN>

Quality Machine Tools was contacted on February 2[SUP]nd</SPAN>[/SUP] with some of the issues discussed in my posting. Matt did acknowledge and took full responsibility of the difficulty. Various options were discussed and one of them was an upgrade to a more expensive mill. I repeat “upgrade to a more expensive mill” including free shipping.</SPAN></SPAN>

Now, please remember as I have stated, I live in Canada which complicates the matter. I had to pay brokerage fees and taxes when I imported the mill. Be aware that I paid all shipping costs within the US to my forwarding agent on the west coast. Also, returning the original mill to get an upgraded mill would have been at my cost. </SPAN></SPAN>

At no time was a replacement machine ever discussed as I had one PM-932M and at the time did not think much of this machine. Matt did offer to replace the feed box to see if it will fix the issue. Matt also offered to replace the spindle DRO.</SPAN></SPAN>

When I asked for complete gear head under warranty there was not much response.</SPAN></SPAN>

Today April 16[SUP]th</SPAN>[/SUP] (two and a half month later) someone by name Ray (</SPAN></SPAN>Precision Matthews Sales/Support) informs</SPAN></SPAN> me on a forum (that I took the initiative to join and share my experience on) that the parts were expressed shipped from the factory.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>

That is a new standard of Express Shipping! Two and a half months later you get notified on a forum that a part is being shipped to you.</SPAN></SPAN>

Adding insult to injury is being told the replacement was offered, when I could not even get a new gear head.</SPAN></SPAN>

You Sir have no******** at all. You and I have nothing further to discuss. I will let the individuals on the forum make up their own minds.</SPAN></SPAN>


I hope this satisfies your question.

Cheers,
Radek


----------



## HMF

:nono:
*NOTICE

As forum owner, I am exercising my perogative and re-opening this thread.
I am soft-deleting the offending posts that violated the forum terms of service. ** (http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=14345)**
The review shall stay, minus any edits required to bring it within conformity with the rules against disparaging this forum.

One of the reasons that I never allowed advertising on this forum was that I wanted people to feel free to address problems with products without fear of inhibition or retribution.
Reviews of products that are constructive and accurate are welcomed and encouraged. How else can manufacturers improve their products?
After witnessing a manufacturer on another forum throw a fit and pull his advertising when members reviewed his products, I decided that this was not the type of interaction that would be permitted and/or encouraged on this forum. Not while I own the forum.

However, when a fellow who is a new member and is in the web advertising business accuses us of covering up the truth, that is just a little bit too self-serving, since we do not permit web advertising, and that impacts on his bottom line. Let's be honest about who has the real motivation to disparage this forum. This behavior also violates the rules. It is also inaccurate, to say the least. That member will not return here. Being a "friendly" forum means that people follow the rules and act respectfully towards one another. That includes being respectful to the forum and staff. Not censored or stifled, but respectful. That means refraining from making false accusations that we will "cover up" the truth. That will not happen during my tenure as owner of this forum.

Effective immediately, I am going to impose a rule as follows. Accurate reviews will continue to be welcomed. The manufacturer will be permitted to post a detailed response or responses that address the criticism. When the poster and manufacturer reach an impasse in terms of resolution, the discussion shall then STOP to avoid disparaging conduct that occurs due to mutual frustration. They can continue their discussions in private, of course. This rule shall also apply in the Vendor Forums paid for by a manufacturer. Consumers may post accurate reviews and/or criticisms there. When an impasse results, the discussion will STOP to avoid disparagement of any kind.

As far as the OP, until he decided to make accusations against the forum, I saw no problem with the review.
When you are in the manufacturing business, you cannot please everyone. That is the nature of the beast.
I want to insure that this accusatory behavior does not re-occur, because if it does, there will be consequences.
However, posting disparaging comments AFTER being warned by a moderator not to do so is unacceptable, and that will result in punishment if done again.

If anyone has a problem remembering the rules of this forum, they are posted here:  http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=14345
**You agreed to them when you joined.
*


----------



## smallfly

nel's--- i have a ques. ??  been wanting to know for some time.  what the heck does the abbreviation ''OP'' stand for ??  thanks in advance.  re  steve in  mt.


----------



## HMF

smallfly said:


> nel's--- i have a ques. ??  been wanting to know for some time.  what the heck does the abbreviation ''OP'' stand for ??  thanks in advance.  re  steve in  mt.




OP=Original Poster


----------



## zmotorsports

I know I am new here but definitely not new to forums so I can appreciate the rules as well as proper conduct among the forum members.  I did however find the OP's review of the machine to be honest and informative (although I hope I don't experience the same thing when mine arrives).

I know the design has been around for many years and is nothing new but in all of my research this was probably the only real negative review that I had seen.  I can appreciate someone who is anal about his tools/equipment as I am the same way.  That said, I also know that it is not a $75k dollar mill either so any and all feedback is appreciated.

I would want someone to give an honest review and not feel intimidated so as to inform other potential buyers and to avoid any possible surprises.  I appreciate those who do take the time to honesty and informatively review a product.  

I don't, however, appreciate the derogatory or slanderous manner in which some people feel they have to throw out there on a public venue.

Mike.


----------



## Leagle

Like everyone else on the forum, I am glad to hear criticisms as wells as praises.  Even if I disagree with the criticisms, it helps me (and, I believe, others) to know what to look for.  Oddly, it was a lengthy diatribe about "Chinese junk" on another forum that got me interested in PM machines.

However, I question the wisdom and justification for trying to rebuild a brand new machine before you speak to the manufacturer/supplier, or even after you speak to the manufacturer and before the problem is resolved.  While I may well be the least knowledgeable person on this forum when it comes to machining, I may be one of the more knowledgeable when it comes to the uniform commercial code, warranties, etc.  (That is what I do for a living.)  The modifications described in the original post will void any warranty from any manufacturer.  You can imagine what sort of response you would get from Ford/GMC/Chrysler/etc. if you bought a new car, didn't like the way it was built and then milled the heads, modified the electrical system, changed the suspension and then, when that didn't work, demand that the manufacturer either fix the problems (which you can no longer even prove existed because you "fixed" them) or give you a new car.


----------



## 09kevin

Shouldn't an employee of the manufacture identify themselves as such when replying to questions or reviews about their machines? I would like to know if I am getting the opinion of a machine owner or an employee of the company. 

Kevin


----------



## Ratz

Leagle said:


> Like everyone else on the forum, I am glad to hear criticisms as wells as praises. Even if I disagree with the criticisms, it helps me (and, I believe, others) to know what to look for. Oddly, it was a lengthy diatribe about "Chinese junk" on another forum that got me interested in PM machines.
> 
> However, I question the wisdom and justification for trying to rebuild a brand new machine before you speak to the manufacturer/supplier, or even after you speak to the manufacturer and before the problem is resolved. While I may well be the least knowledgeable person on this forum when it comes to machining, I may be one of the more knowledgeable when it comes to the uniform commercial code, warranties, etc. (That is what I do for a living.) The modifications described in the original post will void any warranty from any manufacturer. You can imagine what sort of response you would get from Ford/GMC/Chrysler/etc. if you bought a new car, didn't like the way it was built and then milled the heads, modified the electrical system, changed the suspension and then, when that didn't work, demand that the manufacturer either fix the problems (which you can no longer even prove existed because you "fixed" them) or give you a new car.




Just to defend my position, I would like to answer to your post questioning my wisdom and justification for the modifications.</SPAN>

As stated during this post Matt at Quality Machine Tools was contacted on February 2[SUP]nd</SPAN>[/SUP] (this year about 2 weeks after I received the mill). I am sure he was horrified to see the pictures I provided.</SPAN>

During this time Matt send me an email not to worry all will be taken care of. Matt was travelling and our conversation took place few days later. Hence there was some time on my hands to dismantle the suspected part and clean it.</SPAN>

From my experience dealing with Matt, as I purchased a lathe from him few years back, there was never any issue doing your own work. After all you do not ship the machinery back to the vendor, rather your are being send a part and replace it. I am sure Matt does a shopcalls if the machine is in close by area, but be aware I am on the West Coast of Canada, likely 3,000 miles away. I am not even sure how would serious warranty issue work.</SPAN>

By the time Matt got back to me few days later I had the feedbox stripped, cleaned, diagnosed the problem, fabricated the shim and got the mill working.</SPAN>

When the conversation took place, Matt had no issue with me cleaning the feedbox. If you read my post the next difficulty now was the play in the ACME thread which caused the issue that I was unable to plunge cut with any accuracy.</SPAN>

By that time I had some idea about the spring system and bounced the idea of Matt. Matt likely sensed that I am reasonably handy and did not mind me doing it. Being a journeyman mechanic in my sixties, and being able to work on fine European five speed gearbox, may have something to do with it. Working on a simple gears in a milling machine is like going back to stone age.</SPAN>

He was even liberal enough to say if I did not make any huge holes so the machine was resalable he would still take it back in exchange for an upgrade to a higher cost mill. So I have not proceed to these modifications without vendors knowledge. Going for different machine at the time was considered, unfortunately I have spent additional $3 to 4 thousand on tooling and dishing out extra money did not go well with my accounting department.</SPAN>

Matt certainly did not feel good about the feed box being machined 0.030” under to cause pressure on the gears. I on the other hand still seeing the sand in the feedbox said, I would like the complete new gear head. Maybe I should have pushed harder, but that option was not available. I was assured that the gear head is assembled in different plant and there will be no issues. the agreement ended with me receiving new feed box casting and few other bits and pieces.</SPAN>
I also was to receive two seal as the spindle started to leak.</SPAN>

I went ahead with my spring experiments and felt I was getting somewhere. When my prototype worked and I achieved ability to perform a milling operation I expected in the first place, I knew then that the mill is a keeper. I then moved onto a final product seen in the pictures. Having said that, all the modifications are fully reversible and if I would put it back the way it was received, I am confident that even the owner of the same mill would not noticed. I am also confident should owner of the same mill try my machine he/she would not want to go back to theirs, unless of course they do simple milling.</SPAN>

I called Matt from time to time. I even ordered 8” Vertex rotary table from him. Nice piece of gear, if anyone is looking for one (one of the nice Asian tools, and yes it was disassembled to the last piece, but did not need to be). But that one is made in Taiwan, I highly recommend it.</SPAN>

Seals arrived and I dismantled portion of the gear head. Some of you may have seen the post, I thought it was a good one, unfortunately it got removed for my inappropriate behavior of insulting one of the long standing member of the forum, for which I am truly sorry as it was totally unintentional.</SPAN>

Now with the mill working to my satisfaction, I started thinking. What does the thee year warranty really consist of???, I cleaned the machine of the sand, I machined few washers, figured out how it all works, dismantled gear head and replaced the seals. Somehow I felt and new that I got the raw end of the stick. Pity party? At my age, no way.</SPAN>

I called Matt, believe it or not, it was not about the mill, but about some Toolmex holders for my lathe he is got on his website. After all he is a Toolmex dealer as they do not sell directly. I left two phone call messages, I left the message with his helper, I left message with Nicole, it’s been I would say at least three weeks and I did not hear from Matt.</SPAN>
I asked myself, what if I was still waiting for my parts, thee month with the machinery down, he does not know that I am now happy with the mill, he does not know it is fixed, because I did not tell anyone. Not returning phone calls, specialy if he knows of my machine problems. That is not a good customer service. What happened to you Matt?</SPAN>

Leagle, as experienced warranty person, what is your view on this case? I know I perhaps gave you more information then it was necessary, but I like everyone to have all the facts.</SPAN>

I am not happy that I got carried away to the point that posting was terminated, I am not happy that I likely made Ray angry. But put yourself in my place, I still did not get any parts, I still did not get any reply from Quality Machine Tools. What I got was answer from someone I did not know is associated with Quality Machine Tools, telling me that I was offered a free replacement mill and parts are being shipped by Express Delivery which sounded like “It’s been only a week you are well taken care off.</SPAN>

Well, I will leave it at that. That was a hard work. I would rather change the seals on my mill again.</SPAN>

Cheers to all</SPAN>
Radek</SPAN>


----------



## Ray C

Hello and Good Morning...

The list administrators do not want discussions getting out of control and I'll do everything possible to accommodate that.  Everything in this message is written with the best intention of helping and resolving the matter -and for the record, I've spent countless hours attempting to help folks with these types of machines regardless of who the manufacturer is.

Until yesterday, my Avatar signature clearly identified my association with Precision Matthews. Yesterday, our administrators set new rules about signatures which I gladly comply with.  My basic signature line always signs-off with simply "Ray" because, A) I'm a down-to-earth person and B) I make efforts to help folks regardless of what brand of equipment is involved and this is offered without any ties to company association.  FWIW:   After being  a happy camper with Matt's machines for about 5-6 years, I recently started selling/distributing/supporting them through my fabrication company.  I also sell the machines to numerous other professional shops, training institutes etc.  Ultimately, I hope to gather the materials and literature to place an Ad here in the vendor advertising section.  Once that happens, I will abide by any rules of how to identify myself.  I will not proceed with that advertising plan or continue to sell PM machines if it means I cannot still be a general contributor to this forum.

The issue of Warranty is simple.  Machines come with a specified term warranty that covers non-normal-wear replacement parts.  The warranty does not cover any expense in trouble-shooting, removing or replacing any parts.  In such cases, Matt or myself will spend as much time as possible by phone or email to assist.  Significant modification of parts is discouraged without speaking to Matt.  Folks can modify their machines w/o damaging their warranty as long as it simple in nature like converting a single speed motor to a factory-like VFD variable speed upgrade.  Properly self-installing DROs is fine too provided the user does not carelessly drill holes  (such as drilling into a support bolt, alignment pin, lubrication channel etc).  If the user runs the motor at 120 Hz and sends a gear through the casting, or crashes the machine, that's a different matter...  FWIW, many people here have done mods to machines they shouldn't have -and I end-up on the phone trying to fix the mess w/o getting Matt or the factory involved.

In regard to swapping-out just the head... that is a sticky wicket.  Just like a firearm or engine block etc, that component has a stamped serial number and believe it or not, it's easier to swap-out the whole machine.  Matt is obligated to have a trusting relationship with the factory... In other terms, he can bend the rules -but not break them.

I'm not going to comment about the exchange and upgrade offers that were  made as I understand you and Matt reached an agreement and I ask that you discuss those matter with Matt.

As for grit in the gearbox and semi-exposed areas.  It's a sore issue with all chicom machines.  I'm told that at one time, Matt cleaned this up but, the feedback was immediate...  Customers thought they were delivered a used, second-hand machine because, the paint seals were cracked and sometimes the guys would leave some fingerprints behind.    At one time, Matt actually tested lathes by cutting metal and when people saw a few random chips on the machine, they wanted their money back -thinking they'd been sold a used machine. 

Finally, the side gearbox cover is not a normal factory replacement part.  We've never had to replace such a thing and the warranty aspect of the factory in China needs to obtain the part from the production line.  It is enroute and should be arriving DHL soon.  FWIW, before I was officially associated with Matt, I purchased a PM45 CNC mill (my third major piece of PM equipment that supports my business).  One of the buttons on the hand pendant arrived crushed -it obviously got bounced around in shipping.  I noticed this a few weeks ago, a replacement is being ordered -and it will take a while to arrive...

As far as getting in contact with Matt...  He's very busy -so busy, he's asked me to handle some of the workload...

I hope this situation does not become further inflamed and I do not plan to post more about this.  And finally, I have no hard feelings about anything that was said.

Ray


----------



## Ratz

One of my pictures shows a LED work light I installed. It is powered by 12 Volt little transformer rated 1 Amp and wired to the switch.
<O</O
Here is a short video showing the intensity of the light.
<O</O
http://www3.telus.net/oceanready/PM932_w-light.avi
<O</O
Cheers,
Radek


----------



## Ratz

Matt at QMT came through. The feedbox cover and quill DRO arrived. I am glad I did not have to wait for the items with the machine down as it took three months. By no means was it Matt’s fault as the parts are coming from China to US and then on to Canada.

For the Canadian owners of machinery, since the replacement is coming from China and does not include invoice stating it is a warranty replacement part, the parts were subject to duty and taxes. Small change really, but I would hate to have a more expensive part replaced.

When I have some time I will take the PM942 cover off and transfer all the bits and pieces to the new one. I am curious about finding any difference in machining as the old piece of aluminum ruler glued to the front mating surface of the cover is still a mystery.

After some thinking about all the dirt and sand in the gears of my PM932, I now suspect the reason as to why my mill was worse than any other.

Not sure now where I got the information that after the mill is assembled, factory grinds and fills all the voids. Then the machine gets it’s final coat of paint. Since my mill as far as I know was the only one with the mysterious spacer, this created a gap on the top and bottom of the cover plate. Hence through this gap all the debris went into the power down feed gears.

So, for those owners, which appears to be most of them there is likely nothing to worry about. However, since I love machinery and tools I would check into it.

It appears that this machinery is like wine. The older it gets the better it is. :thumbsup:

Cheers to all,
Radek


----------



## Jeephead

Just jumping in, this thread was very informative. I immediately went out and opened up my 932. It was not near as bad but this is a good lesson on new import machines, check them out as through as possible. I had to clean out some grit embedded grease and it was weird, solvent did not seem to work all that good, finally used hot water and all the gunk melted away clean as new (water soluble grease ?). I really like how informative this forum is so I hope this continues to be as valuable as it has been. thanks to Ray for the pdf of the manual. Matt at precision Mathews is great and helped me through the mess with shipping and a less than customer oriented freight company plus a credit card mess and took it all in stride. I really like the mill and use it more than I thought possible with the usual learning curve issues that always lead me here to look up ways to get thing done. It seems to me though that someone could offer a service to detail the machines for those that just might want a tried and tested, dialed in machine and are willing to pay for it. Just a thought.


----------



## Ray C

Jeephead said:


> Just jumping in, this thread was very informative. I immediately went out and opened up my 932. It was not near as bad but this is a good lesson on new import machines, check them out as through as possible. I had to clean out some grit embedded grease and it was weird, solvent did not seem to work all that good, finally used hot water and all the gunk melted away clean as new (water soluble grease ?). I really like how informative this forum is so I hope this continues to be as valuable as it has been. thanks to Ray for the pdf of the manual. Matt at precision Mathews is great and helped me through the mess with shipping and a less than customer oriented freight company plus a credit card mess and took it all in stride. I really like the mill and use it more than I thought possible with the usual learning curve issues that always lead me here to look up ways to get thing done. It seems to me though that someone could offer a service to detail the machines for those that just might want a tried and tested, dialed in machine and are willing to pay for it. Just a thought.



Hmmm... dialed-in machine...

I actually thought about offering that service but, the closest I can come is to true-up chucks and backplates.  -And even that has it's pitfalls when done off-site.

On a lathe, you can adjust the chucks (kinda) but you can't align it off-site because once you crate and move it, alignment goes out the window.  Same goes for a mill.

As for everything else, there are just customizations that most folks will want to do themselves.  The units themselves do not require much.  The Chinese units need a couple weeks of break-in and then check for alignment/tram.  After you do it the second time, you just need to check it every now and then -and it won't be off by much.  The Taiwanese machines...  -Set e'm up, align/tram them -and forget about it.

What would be nice is to have a nation-wide network of service techs that would setup (align/tram) a machine upon delivery.  Once upon a time, it was done that way but now, the owner/operator needs to do that work.  The exception is high-dollar equipment that comes with a service contract... that is still setup by factory reps who get on a plane and travel to the customer site.  -Those machines cost a little more money though .


Ray


----------



## jpooch00

Thanks for the deal-breaking review!

No way I'd spend my money on something with that many problems/defects!

Best wishes,

JP


----------



## jpooch00

Jeephead said:


> Just jumping in, this thread was very informative. I immediately went out and opened up my 932. It was not near as bad but this is a good lesson on new import machines, check them out as through as possible. I had to clean out some grit embedded grease and it was weird, solvent did not seem to work all that good, finally used hot water and all the gunk melted away clean as new (water soluble grease ?). I really like how informative this forum is so I hope this continues to be as valuable as it has been. thanks to Ray for the pdf of the manual. Matt at precision Mathews is great and helped me through the mess with shipping and a less than customer oriented freight company plus a credit card mess and took it all in stride. I really like the mill and use it more than I thought possible with the usual learning curve issues that always lead me here to look up ways to get thing done. It seems to me though that someone could offer a service to detail the machines for those that just might want a tried and tested, dialed in machine and are willing to pay for it. Just a thought.




Seems like an equally valid proposition/course of action would be for the machine builders to turn out quality products from the get-go - but that's just me. 

How much would it add to the cost to have a few of their 12-cent-per-hour guys inspect and clean these things up internally and adjust them to be usable right out of the box?

Maybe 2 bucks per unit - if that?


----------



## qualitymachinetools

jpooch00 said:


> Seems like an equally valid proposition/course of action would be for the machine builders to turn out quality products from the get-go - but that's just me.


   The case he has was a little extreme with the grit, I have really been on them about that in the last few years. I haven't seen it like that since. They still like to paint things that don't need paint though.                                                                                                  But a lot of the rest of it is also a case of getting what you pay for.    If you want something perfect, dont expect it for a dirt cheap price. The machines from Taiwan are better, thats for sure, but you also pay more. Its worth every penny, but many people are just doing it for a hobby, and the Chinese machines fit their budget.     A lot of that is quite extreme, like the spring setup and everything, but thats a case of taking a machine at a low price and putting time in to making it what you want.      My advice, if you want a machine that is perfect out of the box, spend the money and get one from Taiwan. We have both.


----------



## qualitymachinetools

Didn't you end up with a South Bend and a Bridgeport? How are they working out?


----------



## jpooch00

qualitymachinetools said:


> The case he has was a little extreme with the grit, I have really been on them about that in the last few years. I haven't seen it like that since. They still like to paint things that don't need paint though.                                                                                                  But a lot of the rest of it is also a case of getting what you pay for.    If you want something perfect, dont expect it for a dirt cheap price. The machines from Taiwan are better, thats for sure, but you also pay more. Its worth every penny, but many people are just doing it for a hobby, and the Chinese machines fit their budget.     A lot of that is quite extreme, like the spring setup and everything, but thats a case of taking a machine at a low price and putting time in to making it what you want.      My advice, if you want a machine that is perfect out of the box, spend the money and get one from Taiwan. We have both.





qualitymachinetools said:


> Didn't you end up with a South Bend and a Bridgeport? How are they working out?



Yeah, I was all set to get a SB & a Bridgeport (for free, no less!) but when we got to the "warehouse" where they were stored, they were nothing but rusted-out blobs of  scrap.  Water had been running onto everything for years through a roof that seemed to actually channel the water right to them.  The guy hadn't even been into the building for over 5 years and had no idea what was going on.

At this point, I'm saving up a little more money to buy the Taiwanese machines from you.  That and waiting to see if I'll even be employed through the summer!  Business ain't been that great lately and the owner is on the fence about just closing up shop.

Best wishes,

JP


----------



## ajmacdon

So this was a super helpful thread as I considered a new mill.  I ended up with the PM 932 as well and am quite happy so far.  No major grit in mine, just a light wash with kerosene and complete re-lube and I was good to go.

As I started to use it I struggled with the quill backlash as well so stole the OP's great spring idea but modified it slightly.  I got a puller gas strut from Amazon and replaced the silly drill press depth gauge with the strut.  I spec'd 40lb pull but probably would pick 30 if ordering again.

I had to drill out the hole in the bottom of the gearbox to allow the body to partially pass through.  That is also the support, there was no need to make an upper attachment, I just used a die grinder to make a ledge for the body of the strut to sit on.   Out of gas on the tig today so used the mig glue gun to ugly effect on the adapter.

Works great, no more sudden 0.050" drops and jumps.

Alex


----------



## hgneese3rd

Is this strut used for lifting car rear doors? I went on amazon and looked at lifting struts.


----------



## navav2002

hgneese3rd said:


> Is this strut used for lifting car rear doors? I went on amazon and looked at lifting struts.



That is a **Traction** gas spring, it's different than the normal gas spring. The **traction** gas spring "pulls" rather than pushes. It acts like the ones you see on a typical screen door (which aids in pulling the door closed). Where the normal gas spring aids in pushing the car hood or hatch up.

I took the part number off the picture and searched on Amazon and found it pretty easy and ordered the exact same one. I have not installed mine yet but expect it will work great..Good luck with yours!!


----------



## hgneese3rd

ajmacdon said:


> So this was a super helpful thread as I considered a new mill.  I ended up with the PM 932 as well and am quite happy so far.  No major grit in mine, just a light wash with kerosene and complete re-lube and I was good to go.
> 
> As I started to use it I struggled with the quill backlash as well so stole the OP's great spring idea but modified it slightly.  I got a puller gas strut from Amazon and replaced the silly drill press depth gauge with the strut.  I spec'd 40lb pull but probably would pick 30 if ordering again.
> 
> I had to drill out the hole in the bottom of the gearbox to allow the body to partially pass through.  That is also the support, there was no need to make an upper attachment, I just used a die grinder to make a ledge for the body of the strut to sit on.   Out of gas on the tig today so used the mig glue gun to ugly effect on the adapter.
> 
> Works great, no more sudden 0.050" drops and jumps.
> 
> Alex


By using this strut did it make lowering quill harder?


----------



## d-haywood0921

I have learned so many things about the 932 that I didn't know.  Unfortunately almost all of it wasn't good.  I will now go check my machine to see if some of the problems outlined here.  One thing I didn't see anyone discuss is problems with the table.  I recently purchased a Kurt vise. Available for Kurt vises are alignment keys to position the vise perfectly on the mill table.  I thought about making some but I'm a novice in the machining world and based on what they do I decided to buy them from Kurt to make sure they were perfect. They arrived today and I took them right out to install them on the vise and table.  to my surprise they wouldn't fit between the ways.  Precision Matthew's information on the machine said the ways are 14 mm.  The keys I ordered were 14 mm.  I measured the keys and they both measured 14 and 16 mm respectively as advertised.  I measured the spacing between the ways and and all of them measured under 14 mm.  The largest opening I found was 13.85 mm down to 13.31 the best I could measure. That's bad but it's not the worse problem with this story.  I called Precision Matthews and talked to someone in their technical help area.  The representative I talked didn't address the incorrect spacing between the ways other than to say most of them are not correct but are usually larger than smaller.  His advice was to mill the sides of the keys down to make them fit.  I'm really not too comfortable doing that again based on what they are supposed to do aligning the vise on the table. Since these keys square the vise to the table and none of the ways measured the same there is now way I could position the vise accurately in another place. 
Like I said I'm very new to machining and was not comfortable making such a critical piece much less modify the ones I purchased.  I'm not sure what to do now and am looking for advice from this group about the best way to proceed. In the mean time I'll be opening up some areas of my machine to check for the problems I learned about here.


----------



## COMachinist

LOL welcome the biggist problem with the Asian rim machinery. The quality sucks.


----------



## davidpbest

I think you'll discover the Kurt vise keys are hardened - not a milling project I would take on lightly and certainly not one for a novice.  You need specialize carbide end mills to cut that stuff.  I think your choices are limited.  You could certainly machine the T-slots to a consistent 14mm, but that too is not a job for a novice.  You could make your own keys from low carbon steel, or just do without and tram the vice when you move it.


----------



## d-haywood0921

Actually, that's exactly what I was thinking.  Besides I can use the experience.  Thanks for your input.


----------



## 7milesup

COMachinist said:


> LOL welcome the biggist problem with the Asian rim machinery. The quality sucks.


Not necessarily.   Depends on the distributor's specs and where the machines are sourced from.  Taiwan is certainly better than China.  I think you may have meant Pacific rim, which would also include Japan.


----------



## d-haywood0921

I read the OP and now know some things to look at for problems.  Does this group have any advice on other important areas to check for hidden problems.  I've had this machine for 9 months but due to some back problems have not had the opportunity to use it very much.  Therefore I'm hoping no damage has been done and now I have the chance to check everything out.  I had no idea new machinery would need to inspected for hidden issues. Maybe I'm naive, but glad I now have the chance to inspect for it trouble areas.


----------

