# Taking the CNC Plunge



## TomS

Well, I've done it now!  I ordered a PM-932M for a CNC conversion.  Thank you Ray C. for working with me during the sales process.  I've been in the machining business my entire career so I've got the background in manual machining but have no experience with CNC.  The learning curve will be with the electronics, associated software, and CAD.  Been reading about conversions and I've decided to approach it in the same manner as jumps4 (Steve) did with his conversion, e.g. direct drive, 1600 oz in motors for X and Y, 4200 oz in motor for Z, one shot lube system, and Chinese control/drive electronics.  I'm going to start with the mechanical conversion phase first and save the electronics for last.  My thought is that the control side will be fresh in my mind when it comes time to start up and trouble shoot.  Of course I'm going to lean on all of you for your insight as I move through the conversion.  It will be challenging but I'm up for it.  Can't wait to get started. 
 :rubbinghands:

Tom S


----------



## dave2176

Somewhere on here another member did a great job on a cnc 932 conversion. I think it was jbolt but I couldn't find it. Maybe somebody has the link to the thread. Please keep us updated as you proceed.
 Dave


----------



## TomS

dave2176 said:


> Somewhere on here another member did a great job on a cnc 932 conversion. I think it was jbolt but I couldn't find it. Maybe somebody has the link to the thread. Please keep us updated as you proceed.
> Dave



Just found the thread you mentioned.  It's in the CNC in the Home Shop forum.  You are correct it was jbolt.  

Tom S


----------



## countryguy

1st-  All the best!  you'll manage just fine.   I went from zip to 110mph and it's all good!    Never stop learning and taking new journeys!   Congrats on that. 
Mind if I ask what package constitutes the Chinese control / drive eletronics?   Just curious -  So many use the G540  3 or 4 axis w/ Mach3.  But I'm new as well, so was curious what type of package for the Mill you were looking upon.   And will it be Mach3 driven w/ Windows or Linux?   Dare I ask Mack4?   ;-)


----------



## TomS

countryguy said:


> 1st-  All the best!  you'll manage just fine.   I went from zip to 110mph and it's all good!    Never stop learning and taking new journeys!   Congrats on that.
> Mind if I ask what package constitutes the Chinese control / drive eletronics?   Just curious -  So many use the G540  3 or 4 axis w/ Mach3.  But I'm new as well, so was curious what type of package for the Mill you were looking upon.   And will it be Mach3 driven w/ Windows or Linux?   Dare I ask Mack4?   ;-)




*The electronics package I'm looking at is an Ebay item - 3 Axis CNC 1600 OZ-IN & 4200 OZ-IN Spindle Stepper Motor 3D Printer 110BYGH201-001 sold by Wantai Motors.  Comes with the following:
**2 PCS Nema 34 Stepper Motor with Single shaft 1600 oz-in holding torque,
1 PC Nema 42 Stepper Motor with Single shaft 3256 oz-in Holding torque,
2 PCS Stepper Driver DQ860MA with 7.8A replacing MD882,
1 PC Stepper Driver DQ2272 With 8.0A Peak current, 7.0A rated current, 110-220 VAC, 200 Microstep,
2 PCS  Power Supply for 350w, 60 VDC, 5.9A,
1PCBreakout Board,
1 PC DB25 Cable

What do you think?  Again, I'm not electric/electronic literate but anxious to learn.

I'm planning on a Windows 7 platform running Mach 3.  Could be Mach 4 but I need to find out what the differences are before making a decision.

Thanks for your interest.

Tom S 



*


----------



## JimDawson

Looks like it would work.  Their specifications don't seem the match the title, but that is just the ad copy I suppose, not being too careful with the wording.

Sounds like a fun project.  I wasn't too impressed with Mach 3, but I was trying to use it on a high speed industrial router.  It did seem to work for slower speed applications.  It will be interesting to see how Mach 4 performs if it ever gets released.

You might search the other posts on this  forum to see what some of the other folks have done.  The good news is that you came to the right place, there is always someone willing to answer your questions.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Looks like it would work.  Their specifications don't seem the match the title, but that is just the ad copy I suppose, not being too careful with the wording.
> 
> Sounds like a fun project.  I wasn't too impressed with Mach 3, but I was trying to use it on a high speed industrial router.  It did seem to work for slower speed applications.  It will be interesting to see how Mach 4 performs if it ever gets released.
> 
> You might search the other posts on this  forum to see what some of the other folks have done.  The good news is that you came to the right place, there is always someone willing to answer your questions.



Thanks Jim.  The electronics are all new to me.  I'm sure I'll have lot's of questions. 

Tom S


----------



## TomS

My mill arrived today!!!  Spent the better half of the day uncrating and cleaning.  Once I get it on the stand I'll do a run in on the headstock gears and check out the other systems to make sure everything works.  But wouldn't you know it, the local Harbor Freight is out of stock on 2 ton engine lifts.  Will have to wait until Monday for the next shipment.  First step in the CNC conversion will be installation of a one-shot lube system.  Here's a few pieces of eye candy for your viewing pleasure.

Tom S


----------



## GA Gyro

TomS said:


> My mill arrived today!!!  Spent the better half of the day uncrating and cleaning.  Once I get it on the stand I'll do a run in on the headstock gears and check out the other systems to make sure everything works.  But wouldn't you know it, the local Harbor Freight is out of stock on 2 ton engine lifts.  Will have to wait until Monday for the next shipment.  First step in the CNC conversion will be installation of a one-shot lube system.  Here's a few pieces of eye candy for your viewing pleasure.
> 
> Tom S
> 
> View attachment 82332
> View attachment 82333
> View attachment 82334
> View attachment 82335
> View attachment 82336



Does yours have the power down feed and 3PH motor?  

Was looking at the pics... the X drive unit is obvious... what is that black drive unit in the wood box at the back of the column?
THX


----------



## wrmiller

Z-axis drive.


----------



## chuckorlando

Looks good. If you dont mind me asking... How much money do you guys have in one of these conversions? You would need something like the kit linked and then ball screws? Anything else besides a PC?


----------



## TomS

GA said:


> Does yours have the power down feed and 3PH motor?
> 
> Was looking at the pics... the X drive unit is obvious... what is that black drive unit in the wood box at the back of the column?
> THX



I didn't get the PDF option because I'm converting to CNC.  The motor is single phase 120/220 volt AC.  A three phase motor and VFD is something that I may do after I'm up and running.  

I did a trial run in each of the speed ranges after changing out the headstock oil.  I was pleasantly surprised at how quiet it was.  The three axis' were smooth through their full travel.  I checked the spindle taper run out with a .0005" DTI and the needle barely moved.  Overall the machine appears to be good quality.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

chuckorlando said:


> Looks good. If you dont mind me asking... How much money do you guys have in one of these conversions? You would need something like the kit linked and then ball screws? Anything else besides a PC?



I've done a lot of reading on other CNC builds to get a feel for what it takes in the way of materials and effort.  For me the mechanical part of the conversion is not that difficult, it's the electrical/electronic areas where I'm weak.  So I could get my arms around the material requirements I put together a BOM.  The big dollar items are the mill, motors and electronics, ballscrews and nuts.  A PC is required but not that expensive.  It's the CAD and CAM software that can run into some dollars.  You still need to gather the miscellaneous electronics (relays, breakers, switches, wire, etc.), a box to put it in, and motor mount materials, plus other miscellaneous items.  By my estimation I'm going to have about $5,500 in it by the time I'm through.  Some have spent less and some more.

I hope I've answered your question.  If not let me know and I'll share the details.

Tom S


----------



## zmotorsports

Looks great.  Congrats on the mill and sounds like you have a solid plan for the CNC conversion.

Mike.


----------



## chuckorlando

Thanks for your time. How much of that is just in the conversion? It would cost an arm and leg to cnc my bridgeport so if I went that route it would be on a smaller newer machine or an older already cnc factory job. Just wondering what one might expect to pay minus the mill and cad/cam.


----------



## TomS

chuckorlando said:


> Thanks for your time. How much of that is just in the conversion? It would cost an arm and leg to cnc my bridgeport so if I went that route it would be on a smaller newer machine or an older already cnc factory job. Just wondering what one might expect to pay minus the mill and cad/cam.



Minus the mill and CAD/CAM expect to spend $2,000-$2,500 for a ZX45 conversion.

Tom S


----------



## GA Gyro

Just curious here...

When folks CNC a '45'... is it still possible to use it manually... or is it either/or?  

Seems there would be times where hands on was easier than setting up a program to do something simple.  

Obviously a noob question... however one has to learn...


----------



## JimDawson

GA said:


> Just curious here...
> 
> When folks CNC a '45'... is it still possible to use it manually... or is it either/or?
> 
> Seems there would be times where hands on was easier than setting up a program to do something simple.
> 
> Obviously a noob question... however one has to learn...



Apologies to TomS.  We are kind of hijacking this thread, but I think this a very pertinent question.

The most common and least cost conversion uses stepper motors that are either direct or timing belt coupled to the lead screws.  With the stepper motor powered down, it is possible to overpower the inherent mechanical (magnetic) resistance of the stepper motor manually.  It takes a fair amount of force to do so and the stepper motors cog due to their design.  Assuming that you are using a standard 200 step/rev motor and have a 5 pitch lead screw that is direct coupled, then the motor will cog at 0.001 inch increments.  Irritating at best on the X and Y axis.  On the Z axis, without decoupling the quill from the lead screw, it is impossible to use the quill manually.  Without providing a very convenient way of decoupling the stepper motors from the lead screws, manual operation is not very practical.  If I couldn't switch over in under a minute, I would find it very irritating.

Another and more costly option is to use DC servo motors.  These have almost no mechanical resistance when powered down.  The Z axis lead screw still must be decoupled from the quill to manually operate the quill.  The down side of this is the cost and the more complex control system.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Apologies to TomS.  We are kind of hijacking this thread, but I think this a very pertinent question.
> 
> The most common and least cost conversion uses stepper motors that are either direct or timing belt coupled to the lead screws.  With the stepper motor powered down, it is possible to overpower the inherent mechanical (magnetic) resistance of the stepper motor manually.  It takes a fair amount of force to do so and the stepper motors cog due to their design.  Assuming that you are using a standard 200 step/rev motor and have a 5 pitch lead screw that is direct coupled, then the motor will cog at 0.001 inch increments.  Irritating at best on the X and Y axis.  On the Z axis, without decoupling the quill from the lead screw, it is impossible to use the quill manually.  Without providing a very convenient way of decoupling the stepper motors from the lead screws, manual operation is not very practical.  If I couldn't switch over in under a minute, I would find it very irritating.
> 
> Another and more costly option is to use DC servo motors.  These have almost no mechanical resistance when powered down.  The Z axis lead screw still must be decoupled from the quill to manually operate the quill.  The down side of this is the cost and the more complex control system.



Jim - no need to apologize.  I'm a CNC newbie too and looking for as much information as others will offer up.  My build will be a learning experience as I don't have any prior CNC exposure and I'm real weak when it comes to the electrical/electronics side of the conversion.  Anyway should be a fun project.  

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Just to add, on a 45 clone the Z can be driven by the head or quill. Driving the head allows for more useful cnc head travel and leaves the quill free to use manually. On that note I did a power down feed on my smithy quill using a stepper driving the fine feed worm. I can use the fine feed manually when not powered but if it is turned too fast the stepper will lock which would be extremely annoying in the X Y of a mill table.

I did not bother trying to make my PM932 cnc conversion usable manually. The few manual operations I have needed to do are easy enough using the MDI interface or pendant.

Jay


----------



## chuckorlando

Most cnc's can be run "manual" through the comp if I am not mistaken


----------



## maker of things

I can turn the power to the stepper off and manually mill with my G0704 no problem.  However, it is much easier for me to use the MDI (Manual Data Input) to use the mill like a programmable power feed.  Say you need to mill a slot.  Align the cutter as you would manually just use the arrow keys or pendant to jog the cutter and set your zeros.  switch to the MDI screen (Mach3) type g00z-.03 (enter) <enter> z rapids to -.03" doc.  Type g01x2.5f.5 (enter)<enter> the mill will move the table 2.5 inches at .5 ipm.  You can do a lot of one off work by just typing one line at a time.  If you need to repeat a command, at the MDI line hit the up arrow to scroll up to the code you want to reuse and (enter) <enter>.

I would also suggest reading Jumps4 thread, he converts a 45 class mill. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=8187 its a few pages back.</enter></enter></enter>


----------



## TomS

maker of things said:


> I can turn the power to the stepper off and manually mill with my G0704 no problem.  However, it is much easier for me to use the MDI (Manual Data Input) to use the mill like a programmable power feed.  Say you need to mill a slot.  Align the cutter as you would manually just use the arrow keys or pendant to jog the cutter and set your zeros.  switch to the MDI screen (Mach3) type g00z-.03 (enter) <enter> z rapids to -.03" doc.  Type g01x2.5f.5 (enter)<enter> the mill will move the table 2.5 inches at .5 ipm.  You can do a lot of one off work by just typing one line at a time.  If you need to repeat a command, at the MDI line hit the up arrow to scroll up to the code you want to reuse and (enter) <enter>.
> 
> I would also suggest reading Jumps4 thread, he converts a 45 class mill. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=8187 its a few pages back.</enter></enter></enter>



I've read Jumps4 thread several times.  Lot's of valuable information there.  His thread also has a link to an X2 conversion that walks through the wiring details.  Jbolt has a thread on his PM-932 conversion that is also very helpful.  For those of us that don't have a strong background in CNC these are an excellent source of information.  Steve (Jumps4) and Jay (Jbolt) have offered to help me through my conversion.  A couple of stand-up guys.

Tom S


----------



## GA Gyro

Just curios...

Has anyone done a CNC to a knee mill?

Both Jump and Jbolt's threads are good reads... need to go through them again.

Being new to hobby machining (have some shop experience from decades ago), I probably will use the machines manually for a while... then do the CNC conversion on the mill.

Does anyone have the link to Jump's lathe CNC conversion?  THX


----------



## TomS

GA said:


> Just curios...
> 
> Has anyone done a CNC to a knee mill?
> 
> Both Jump and Jbolt's threads are good reads... need to go through them again.
> 
> Being new to hobby machining (have some shop experience from decades ago), I probably will use the machines manually for a while... then do the CNC conversion on the mill.
> 
> Does anyone have the link to Jump's lathe CNC conversion?  THX



Here's the link -  file:///C:/Users/Tom/Documents/Machining%20Related/CNC%20Conversion%20Info/RF-45%20ZX-45%20CNC%20Converstion%20by%20jumps4.htm

Tom S

Edit - My bad!  I posted the link to my file location.  Here's the correct link - http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=8187&highlight=cnc+conversion


----------



## GA Gyro

Read through Jump's MILL conversion thread....

Would like to read Jump's LATHE conversion thread... Does anyone have the link to the LATHE thread... THX!

(Sorry for the repeat question... I have posted the wrong link many a time myself...  )


----------



## awander

Those motors' torque ratings are crazy. They will be very slow. You would most likely get much better performance by using smaller motors with belt drives.

Also, what are the other specs on the motors? Voltage, current and inductance?

What about the drives, what is their max voltage?

I wouldn't be surprised of the kit components are not well matched to each other.


----------



## TomS

GA said:


> Read through Jump's MILL conversion thread....
> 
> Would like to read Jump's LATHE conversion thread... Does anyone have the link to the LATHE thread... THX!
> 
> (Sorry for the repeat question... I have posted the wrong link many a time myself...  )



Here's the link to the lathe conversions - http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=8692

Tom S


----------



## TomS

awander said:


> Those motors' torque ratings are crazy. They will be very slow. You would most likely get much better performance by using smaller motors with belt drives.
> 
> Also, what are the other specs on the motors? Voltage, current and inductance?
> 
> What about the drives, what is their max voltage?
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised of the kit components are not well matched to each other.



1600 oz-in motor specs - 5.7V/3.5A, 22mH/phase

4200 oz-in motor specs - 5.36VDC/8.0A, 12mH/phase

The DQ880MA driver is rated at 80VDC.  The DQ2722M is a combined driver/power supply.  The driver output voltage is not listed in the eBay ad so I'll have to do some digging.  Steve used the same motors and drivers for his conversion and made a reference to being able to machine at up to 200 in/min.  The intent of the conversion is for me to learn about CNC.  I'm certain it will have adequate speed butiIf it runs slower than a production based machine I'm not concerned.

Tom S.


----------



## JimDawson

Just to put things in perspective.  I did a controls upgrade on a commercial 4x8 foot CNC router, with a 12HP spindle motor, and retro-fitted it with NEMA 34, 1200 oz/in stepper motors.  The original motors were 400 oz/in DC servo motors.  It is common practice to oversize the steppers to try to prevent de-coupling under load.

The reason for the upgrade was the old computer died and a replacement was not available.  The customer also wanted to run Mach3 on the machine, and it is difficult to use Mach3 to drive an analog (the DC motor controllers) control system.  So we went with stepper motors and a parallel breakout board from ebay.  The stepper motors and drivers for this project were purchased from Automation Direct at about double the cost of the system from Wantai, but they are a known quantity.  I built my own 80V, 500 watt power supply to run the system.

The 5 pitch lead screws are driven by timing belts that are geared down by a ratio of 1.3:1 on the X and Y axis and 3:1 on the Z.  Normal cutting speeds are in the range of 150 IPM, with rapids at 300 IPM.  It will rapid at about 600 IPM, but that is frightening and starts getting a bit squirrely, so it is limited.  Z moves are limited to about 60 IPM rapid, and normal plunging speed is in the 20 IPM range.  It is set up to run 20,000 micro steps/revolution so things operate very smooth.

Mach3 *will not* run the router at these speeds due to the limitations of the pulse train generator in the software, so we changed the motion controller and software to a much higher speed, and considerably more expensive system.  Mach3 will work OK for slower speed systems like milling machines, plasma cutters, and table top routers.

The point of this is that in metal machining you will never run speeds anywhere close to the maximum stepper motor speeds so that is not really a factor in determining what stepper motors to use, but more torque = good.  The torque curve of stepper motors is almost flat until you hit the motor's mid speed range, then it starts dropping off.  Most of my metal machining is done in the <20 IPM range, with maximum rapids at 100 IPM.

In general, maximum stepper motor speed is a function of available voltage.  The motor current is limited by the drive, but the voltage really controls the pulse rise time and therefore the motor speed.  The highest voltage rated stepper driver I have seen is 80V.

This is not an endorsement, but assuming that the Wantai motors and controllers perform as advertised, I would say that they will have plenty of power and speed for a milling machine or lathe CNC conversion.


----------



## TomS

After gathering some information from others I've decided to use proximity sensors for my limit switches.  So I go to eBay thinking this should be easy.  Was I mistaken!  After perusing page after page of proximity sensors my brain is mush.  Do I need inductive or capacitive, normally open or normally closed, NPN or PNP, shielded or unshielded, or DC or AC powered?  I'm certain their are other considerations but I'll reserve those until I work my way through this first iteration.

What I think I need are inductive, normally closed, unshielded, DC sensors.  What I don't know is do I need a NPN or PNP sensor?  Your input is welcome and appreciated.

I knew the electronics part of this conversion was going to be difficult. 

Thanks

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> After gathering some information from others I've decided to use proximity sensors for my limit switches.  So I go to eBay thinking this should be easy.  Was I mistaken!  After perusing page after page of proximity sensors my brain is mush.  Do I need inductive or capacitive, normally open or normally closed, NPN or PNP, shielded or unshielded, or DC or AC powered?  I'm certain their are other considerations but I'll reserve those until I work my way through this first iteration.
> 
> What I think I need are inductive, normally closed, unshielded, DC sensors.  What I don't know is do I need a NPN or PNP sensor?  Your input is welcome and appreciated.
> 
> I knew the electronics part of this conversion was going to be difficult.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Tom S



The most important parameter is not listed above.  You need a sensor that will operate at 5 volts, because that is your available supply voltage on the break out board.  The lowest operating voltage that I have seen is 6 volts.  Normally proximity sensors operate at 10 to 30 volts.   And you want a shielded sensor so it doesn't pick up the tab from the side.  Normally closed would be ideal, but they are not common. I think for a breakout board you want a NPN output, I'll check that tomorrow when I go out to the shop.  I think you want to pull the output low on activate.

An option would be to operate the prox sensor at higher voltage and use a relay to switch the input on the breakout board.  That would give you the equivalent of a NC prox.  Google ''Phoenix Contact 2966171''  this relay is ideal for the application, and using a relay, you can use either a PNP or an NPN output.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> The most important parameter is not listed above.  You need a sensor that will operate at 5 volts, because that is your available supply voltage on the break out board.  The lowest operating voltage that I have seen is 6 volts.  Normally proximity sensors operate at 10 to 30 volts.   And you want a shielded sensor so it doesn't pick up the tab from the side.  Normally closed would be ideal, but they are not common. I think for a breakout board you want a NPN output, I'll check that tomorrow when I go out to the shop.  I think you want to pull the output low on activate.
> 
> An option would be to operate the prox sensor at higher voltage and use a relay to switch the input on the breakout board.  That would give you the equivalent of a NC prox.  Google ''Phoenix Contact 2966171''  this relay is ideal for the application, and using a relay, you can use either a PNP or an NPN output.



Thanks for your comments.  I thought proximity sensors was the simple solution.  Maybe not.  Now I'm thinking limit switches are the way to go.  I'll reserve my decision until I hear back from you.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> Thanks for your comments.  I thought proximity sensors was the simple solution.  Maybe not.  Now I'm thinking limit switches are the way to go.  I'll reserve my decision until I hear back from you.
> 
> Tom S



I would use limit switches in this application.  Prox sensors have their place, but I don't think your application is the proper use.

I am using limit switches like this one on my mill on the X and Y axis. http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tal_Plunger_with_Roller_Actuator/AEM2G12X11-3
The major features of this switch is that it is slow acting, much more accurate and repeatable than a snap action switch. This makes it suitable for use as an accurate home switch.  Most limit switches that you find on ebay are snap action because they are more common.  It is also IP67 rated which means it's water tight to 1 meter submersion, pretty much coolant proof.

My Z axis is using a different switch, also slow acting.  I needed a switch that I could bury in the head, so I went to Radio Shack and picked up a pack of these.  http://www.radioshack.com/pushbutto...tary-switch4-pack/2751548.html#start=24&sz=12
This one would not work well if it got wet with coolant, and can't be used with a cam type actuator.

You only need 3 switches, and use the same switch for travel limits in each direction, and also they double as the home switches.  You don't have enough inputs for separate switches for each end.

You are correct that you want to wire the switch as normally closed, that way the input is pretty much immune to stray electrical signals, and will fail safe in the case of a broken wire.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> I would use limit switches in this application.  Prox sensors have their place, but I don't think your application is the proper use.
> 
> I am using limit switches like this one on my mill on the X and Y axis. http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tal_Plunger_with_Roller_Actuator/AEM2G12X11-3
> The major features of this switch is that it is slow acting, much more accurate and repeatable than a snap action switch. This makes it suitable for use as an accurate home switch.  Most limit switches that you find on ebay are snap action because they are more common.  It is also IP67 rated which means it's water tight to 1 meter submersion, pretty much coolant proof.
> 
> My Z axis is using a different switch, also slow acting.  I needed a switch that I could bury in the head, so I went to Radio Shack and picked up a pack of these.  http://www.radioshack.com/pushbutto...tary-switch4-pack/2751548.html#start=24&sz=12
> This one would not work well if it got wet with coolant, and can't be used with a cam type actuator.
> 
> You only need 3 switches, and use the same switch for travel limits in each direction, and also they double as the home switches.  You don't have enough inputs for separate switches for each end.
> 
> You are correct that you want to wire the switch as normally closed, that way the input is pretty much immune to stray electrical signals, and will fail safe in the case of a broken wire.



Jim - Thanks for your feedback.  When it comes to electronics I'm treading in new territory so your guidance and opinion are appreciated.  I'll read up on the limit switches you suggested.  If I have any questions I'll post them here so others can learn along with me.

Tom S


----------



## Karl_T

I also recommend a roller switch like Jim suggests:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tal_Plunger_with_Roller_Actuator/AEM2G12X11-3

I've done many CNC conversions over the years. Being a cheap bastid, I've always just shopped for a large lot of switches on eBay. You can get them for 10 cents on the dollar. OK, my question for Jim, are all name brand made in USA type roller switches slow acting? Or should I be more careful in the future?

FWIW, eBay quality switches have worked well for me. But my applications don't rely on super accuracy for homing. I like them because they can be located nearly anywhere, then a bump put in place to make them actuate. Normally both limits and home switch all in the same spot for one axis. This allows only one seal tight cable back to the control.

Karl


----------



## JimDawson

Karl_T said:


> OK, my question for Jim, are all name brand made in USA type roller switches slow acting? Or should I be more careful in the future?
> Karl



Most limit switches are snap acting.  You can tell by holding it up to your ear and listen for the click as you actuate it. If it doesn't click, then it is slow acting.  Slow acting limit switches are not common, they are mostly used for precise positioning applications.  Snap action are normally used in present / not present type of applications.


----------



## jbolt

Tom,

FYI my proximity switches are HTM: FCU1-0801N-ACS3. 5v-36v, NPN, NO, 1.5mm sense range. I got them through Charter Oak Automation. IIRC the kits were about $35 ea which included the sensor, 2m cable and bracket.

I spoke with HTM today and they say the repeat accuracy should be less than 1% of the max sense range or 0.0006". They did say that raw 4140 steel is used to establish the data and that the shape, size, type and coating of the trigger can effect the accuracy. Some of my triggers are 1/4-20 zinc plated flat head screws so I suspect this may be part of the accuracy issue I am having for homing.

Looking at the data sheet they sent it says the switching hysteresis is less that %15 of the sense range but I'm not sure how that may affect the repeat accuracy.

FWIW- I decided not to bury the switches in the machine because I tend to use all of the available table space and I like to see where the limits are while jogging.

J~


----------



## TomS

As promised here are a few work in progress pictures of my PM-932 CNC conversion.  Just the mechanical stuff so far.  I'm currently sanding and painting the column and Z axis components.  It's been raining everyday for the past week and a half so it takes two days for the paint to dry before I can handle anything.  Should have pictures to post of these parts in a couple of days.  Electrical and electronics to follow once the machine is assembled and mechanically functional.

I had to re-paint the entire machine.  Our favorite freight company didn't do a good job when handling my mill and it got beat up pretty bad.  Lots of cosmetic damage but thankfully no mechanical damage. 




Saddle installed.



X axis ball nut and screw installed.  I want to keep the outside of the machine as uncluttered as possible.  That is why I installed the X and Y axis lube fittings under the table.  I'll follow the same concept with wiring.



I have 28" of X axis travel but will limit it to about 23" when I'm up and running.  



The X axis stepper motor and mount.  Thanks to jumps4 (Steve) for posting his motor mount drawings in his conversion thread.  I borrowed his basic design. 



I'm using BK and BF bearing housings on the X axis.  The coupling is a double diaphragm style.



The Y axis motor and mount.



The Y axis uses a BK bearing housing and the same double diaphragm style coupling as the X axis. 




So far this has been a fun project.  The mechanical part is fairly straight forward you just need to take a lot of measurements.  I'm trying to get my mind around the electrical and electronics.  That's going to be a challenge.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

More pictures of the assembly process.

Column installed.



Z axis motor mount.  I'm using a FK type bearing housing.



Another view of the Z axis motor mount.  I had some 3/4" x 4" flat bar so that's what I used.



Here's a shot of the one-shot lube system pump and manifold.



The fittings on the bottom are feeding the X and Y dovetails and X axis ball nut.  The top fittings will feed the Y and Z axis ball nuts and the Z axis dovetails.



Tomorrow the Z axis slide and head go on.  More pictures to follow.

Tom S


----------



## D.C.

I like what you've got going. I'm in the middle of my first conversion. Bought a brand new PM1340 lathe and now have it torn apart putting in ball screws and steppers. Using Mach 3 and have it controlling the motors on a bench. Just need to connect the ballscrews to the motors and cross my fingers.


----------



## compsurge

Looks great!

I'm so apprehensive to start my mill conversion. I keep fearing I'll miss a measurement and have to put the mill completely back together and try again!

Did you make the One Shot manifold?


----------



## TomS

D.C. said:


> I like what you've got going. I'm in the middle of my first conversion. Bought a brand new PM1340 lathe and now have it torn apart putting in ball screws and steppers. Using Mach 3 and have it controlling the motors on a bench. Just need to connect the ballscrews to the motors and cross my fingers.



Good luck with your conversion.  This is the most shop fun I've had.  Can't wait to get back to it tomorrow.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

compsurge said:


> Looks great!
> 
> I'm so apprehensive to start my mill conversion. I keep fearing I'll miss a measurement and have to put the mill completely back together and try again!
> 
> Did you make the One Shot manifold?




Don't worry about making mistakes.  It happens.  Don't let it keep you from moving forward on your conversion.  I can assure you that some of the parts on the mill are not first edition.

Yes, I did make the manifold.  It's a 1" x 2-3/4" x 4-3/4" block of aluminum with a bunch of 1/8" NPT threaded holes.

Tom S


----------



## GA Gyro

D.C. said:


> I like what you've got going. I'm in the middle of my first conversion. *Bought a brand new PM1340 lathe and now have it torn apart putting in ball screws and steppers.* Using Mach 3 and have it controlling the motors on a bench. Just need to connect the ballscrews to the motors and cross my fingers.



Do you have a build thread going on this project...

Reason I ask:  Some of us are waiting for our 1340GT's... hopefully January 2015 delivery.
Would be great to see the innerds of the lathe, before we get ours.

THX in advance if you do!

John


----------



## TomS

Today I got the head mounted and a few other minor details completed.  Next step - wiring!

The head mounted and Z axis motor sitting on top.  Wish I could figure out how to rotate pictures.




Here's my electronics enclosure.  Picked it up at the local Sears store on clearance for $70.00.



The bottom drawer is 17" x 22" x 10" deep.  Should be plenty of room for all of the electrical and electronics goodies.  I'll use the top two drawers for tools specific to the CNC mill.



Here's a picture of the electronics set in the drawer.  I'll mount everything on a piece of aluminum plate so I can wire it up on the bench then bolt it to the drawer with some stand-offs.  The two power supplies (lower right) are 9" tall.    



Another picture showing the extra space for the BoB, relays, breakers, etc.



Thanks for looking.


Tom S


----------



## GA Gyro

I like the idea of the electronics in the drawer... on a chassis so you can pull them out to work on.  
I am sure you planned for this... what are you going to do for cooling air flow?  
Curious!!!


----------



## TomS

GA said:


> I like the idea of the electronics in the drawer... on a chassis so you can pull them out to work on.
> I am sure you planned for this... what are you going to do for cooling air flow?
> Curious!!!




I'll mount two or three 100 mm fans on the back panel of the roll away.  Air inlets, with filters,  will be cut in the front of the drawer.

Tom S


----------



## JohnsonFabrication

A tool chest for the controller enclosure is a fantastic idea, wish I had thought of that. A+ on that idea! :thumbzup3:


----------



## TomS

I'm just about at the point where I will be wiring the power and electronic circuits which means a decision on motion control software is near.  My initial plan was to go with Mach 3 because it's well established and there's a huge support/knowledge base out there.  Couldn't ask for a better situation when you need help.  The down side is that Mach 3 will be phased out over the next year or so now that Mach 4 has been released.  Not sure I want to buy software that is near the end of it's life.

Mach 4 is now on the table and I like what I've read but what I've read comes from the Newfangled Solutions web site.  I particularly like that it will run on a laptop because I have a spare.  Running Mach 3 I will need a desktop with XP which is not easy to find and with XP not being supported by Microsoft anymore makes it that much more unattractive.  I also realize that Mach 4 being a new software package there will be bugs to work out and there aren't many/any add-on features yet.  I'm really not sure what to expect.

Do I buy the established software that has a huge following and support network but may not be sold and supported by the manufacturer or do I go with the new package that may have some de-bugging to be done but has room to grow?  Or is there other motion control software to be considered.  I'd like to hear what you have to say before I make a decision.  

Tom S


----------



## compsurge

LinuxCNC and Mach 4 would be my go-to solution. I wouldn't worry too much about Mach 4 being new. It's been a long time coming and folks like Hoss (hossmachine/hoss2006 on other forums) has been posting his updates on YouTube.

My personal setup is going to most likely be based on LinuxCNC. I have it operating on a PC now and I'll be wiring up the controller over the next few weeks.


----------



## TomS

compsurge said:


> LinuxCNC and Mach 4 would be my go-to solution. I wouldn't worry too much about Mach 4 being new. It's been a long time coming and folks like Hoss (hossmachine/hoss2006 on other forums) has been posting his updates on YouTube.
> 
> My personal setup is going to most likely be based on LinuxCNC. I have it operating on a PC now and I'll be wiring up the controller over the next few weeks.



I originally discounted LinuxCNC because I read somewhere that it's more complicated than Mach 3 to get it set up.  There is also Ubuntu (I think this is the operating system) that I will need to learn.  Not sure I want to go down that road as the electrical and electronics are challenging enough.  Am I off base with that analogy?  Does Linux have a demo site?

Thanks for your response.

Tom S


----------



## Karl_T

TomS said:


> I originally discounted LinuxCNC because I read somewhere that it's more complicated than Mach 3 to get it set up.  There is also Ubuntu (I think this is the operating system) that I will need to learn.  Not sure I want to go down that road as the electrical and electronics are challenging enough.  Am I off base with that analogy?  Does Linux have a demo site?
> 
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> Tom S



I think your statement is true. If you are really challenged by this sort of work mach would be better for you. To me the important part of the decision is whether you are using steppers or servos. Mach is a GREAT stepper control. LinuxCNC has position feedback so its the better choice if you have servos.

Just my 2 c

Karl


----------



## MarkStephen

TomS said:


> I originally discounted LinuxCNC because I read somewhere that it's more complicated than Mach 3 to get it set up.  There is also Ubuntu (I think this is the operating system) that I will need to learn.  Not sure I want to go down that road as the electrical and electronics are challenging enough.  Am I off base with that analogy?  Does Linux have a demo site?
> 
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> Tom S



Modern Linux is not at all that different from any other OS as far as user interface. In fact, a recent test study where some collage students took a bunch of laptops int a retirement home, half windows and half Ubuntu Linux, they found that the Linux machines were reported easier to use with people that have never used a computer before. On a side note, I've been using Linux for my day to day computing sense ~1998. 

LinuxCNC, maybe a bit more to learn but you don't need to learn it ALL at once. Get the basics up and running and expand your knowledge base from there as needed. If you want to try out Linux, just download and burn a distro that has a live CD/DVD and check it out. LinuxCNC offers a Live CD so you don't have to install anything, just run it from the CD, though booting is a bit slow due to the data transfer rate of the CD ROM drive. If you like it, then you can chose to install it. You can install dual boot on the same drive if there is room, or dual boot from another hard drive or install as stand alone. You can go here - http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/download - and get the Linux CNC image to burn on a DVD so you can test it out and install if you want to. 

Mark


----------



## TomS

Karl_T said:


> I think your statement is true. If you are really challenged by this sort of work mach would be better for you. To me the important part of the decision is whether you are using steppers or servos. Mach is a GREAT stepper control. LinuxCNC has position feedback so its the better choice if you have servos.
> 
> Just my 2 c
> 
> Karl



I'm using steppers.  Thanks for your response.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

MarkStephen said:


> Modern Linux is not at all that different from any other OS as far as user interface. In fact, a recent test study where some collage students took a bunch of laptops int a retirement home, half windows and half Ubuntu Linux, they found that the Linux machines were reported easier to use with people that have never used a computer before. On a side note, I've been using Linux for my day to day computing sense ~1998.
> 
> LinuxCNC, maybe a bit more to learn but you don't need to learn it ALL at once. Get the basics up and running and expand your knowledge base from there as needed. If you want to try out Linux, just download and burn a distro that has a live CD/DVD and check it out. LinuxCNC offers a Live CD so you don't have to install anything, just run it from the CD, though booting is a bit slow due to the data transfer rate of the CD ROM drive. If you like it, then you can chose to install it. You can install dual boot on the same drive if there is room, or dual boot from another hard drive or install as stand alone. You can go here - http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/download - and get the Linux CNC image to burn on a DVD so you can test it out and install if you want to.
> 
> Mark



Thanks Mark.  I'll take a look.


Tom S


----------



## TomS

Been a while since I posted on my progress.  I had another thread going on the CNC forum to work through some AC circuit questions.  Probably should have posted it here.  Anyway I resolved the issues I had thanks to the support of our forum members.

Now I'm starting to wire the electronics, specifically the motors to the power supplies as I don't yet have a breakout board.  Thought I had it figured out because the Z axis DQ2722M driver/power supply was clearly marked A+/A- and B+/B-.  Not so with the X and Y axis drivers.  Here is a picture of my power supplies.  







I see the V+ and V- and the six screws but which terminals are A+/A- and B+/B-?  

I bought three limit switches from Automation Direct but they didn't come with any documentation or schematics and their website doesn't have any info either.  My question is how do you wire them?  They each have six wires; two black wires, one blue, one brown, one yellow with green stripe, and one green smaller gauge wire.     

After thinking about it maybe this thread should be on the CNC build thread instead of here.  I'll leave it up to the moderators to decide.

Thanks for listening,

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

That is only the power supply.  You do not connect the motor to it, there are three terminals for V+ and three terminals for V-.  The output from there goes to your drive.  The motor then connects to the A, /A, B, /B terminals on the drives.

The DQ2722M drive has it's own internal power supply

On the limit SW, the 2 Blacks are the Normally Closed contacts, and the blue, brown pair are the Normally Open.  The Green/Yellow is a case ground.  The small Green ''wire'' is not a wire, it's just a plastic filler for the cable.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> That is only the power supply.  You do not connect the motor to it, there are three terminals for V+ and three terminals for V-.  The output from there goes to your drive.  The motor then connects to the A, /A, B, /B terminals on the drives.
> 
> The DQ2722M drive has it's own internal power supply
> 
> On the limit SW, the 2 Blacks are the Normally Closed contacts, and the blue, brown pair are the Normally Open.  The Green/Yellow is a case ground.  The small Green ''wire'' is not a wire, it's just a plastic filler for the cable.



Thanks for setting me straight on wiring the motors to the drives.  Am I correct in that the power supply V+ terminals are wired to the drive Enbl+, Dir+, and Pul+ terminals?  Likewise for the V- terminals and the corresponding driver terminals?  Is the wiring terminal specific?  Sorry for all the questions but I'm new to this and want to learn and also don't want to fry the electronics when I power it up.

I've got it on the limit switches.  Wire the circuit with the two black wires and the others are not used.

Thanks for your help.  I'm certain I'll have more questions as move through the conversion.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

No, sorry.  Those are 5V inputs from the breakout board.  PUL is the pulse input, and  DIR is the direction input.  Normally you can connect the DIR- and PUL - to the GND terminal on the breakout board.  Do not connect to the power supply.

The V+ V-  connect to the +V and GND terminals on the drive, the ones right next to the motor connections.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> No, sorry.  Those are 5V inputs from the breakout board.  PUL is the pulse input, and  DIR is the direction input.  Normally you can connect the DIR- and PUL - to the GND terminal on the breakout board.  Do not connect to the power supply.
> 
> The V+ V-  connect to the +V and GND terminals on the drive, the ones right next to the motor connections.



OK.  I think I've got it.  





I need to run a wire from one of the power supply V+ terminals to the driver VDC terminal and another wire from one of the power supply V- to the driver GND  terminal.  Correct?

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

Yup, you  got it


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Yup, you  got it



Thanks for the help.


----------



## GA Gyro

There may be a 940 CNC in my future... need to read and learn here...


----------



## TomS

It's been a steep learning curve for me but with help from several forum members I've been able to work through my "issues".  My approach has been to take it a step at a time, get that portion of the build completed, then move on to the next step.  At the moment I'm working on mounting and wiring limit switches.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

Made some progress the last few days and got the limit switches mounted.  

Here's a shot of the Y axis mount and switch.  







Here's the X axis.  There's another switch actuator on the other end of the table.






The is the Z axis.   





I'm at the point where I need to decide if I'm going with Mach 3 or 4.  Been reading and listening and I'm leaning towards Mach 3 for a couple of reasons.  First and foremost is the abundance of knowledge and support that is available.  Mach 4 being new doesn't yet have much of a user base from what I've read it is in reality still in Beta mode.  I can always upgrade later.  Secondly the selection of Mach 3 breakout boards, smooth steppers and other related hardware is fairly large and readily available.  So it's decision time.

Thanks for looking.

Tom S


----------



## bvd1940

TomS said:


> It's been a steep learning curve for me but with help from several forum members I've been able to work through my "issues".  My approach has been to take it a step at a time, get that portion of the build completed, then move on to the next step.  At the moment I'm working on mounting and wiring limit switches.
> 
> Tom S


Thanks for the heads up on your build Tom, I like your idea on the roll around tool chest cabinet idea.
I will be shopping for one post haste!! 
Congrats on such a nice clean build, I do not have that luxury as I have to use my mill as I convert which is tough with ball screws running manual.
I will be watching as you finish your build.
Bill


----------



## TomS

bvd1940 said:


> Thanks for the heads up on your build Tom, I like your idea on the roll around tool chest cabinet idea.
> I will be shopping for one post haste!!
> Congrats on such a nice clean build, I do not have that luxury as I have to use my mill as I convert which is tough with ball screws running manual.
> I will be watching as you finish your build.
> Bill



Thanks for your comments.  If you haven't already you might want to take a look at Jumps4's build thread.  There's a lot of valuable info there.  You'll have to sort through all the postings but in one he has an attachment of most of the motor and ball nut mounts he made.  It saved me days of design work.

Lot's of other help available as well.  All you have to do is ask and the ideas and suggestions will begin flowing.

Tom S


----------



## GA Gyro

TomS said:


> Made some progress the last few days and got the limit switches mounted.
> 
> Here's a shot of the Y axis mount and switch.
> 
> View attachment 98265
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the X axis.  There's another switch actuator on the other end of the table.
> View attachment 98266
> 
> 
> 
> The is the Z axis.
> View attachment 98269
> 
> 
> *I'm at the point where I need to decide if I'm going with Mach 3 or 4.  Been reading and listening and I'm leaning towards Mach 3 for a couple of reasons.  First and foremost is the abundance of knowledge and support that is available.  Mach 4 being new doesn't yet have much of a user base from what I've read it is in reality still in Beta mode.  I can always upgrade later.  Secondly the selection of Mach 3 breakout boards, smooth steppers and other related hardware is fairly large and readily available.  So it's decision time.*
> 
> Thanks for looking.
> 
> Tom S



I will be reading to hear your decision and why... I may be learning CNC in a year or so.
THX in advance for whatever you post!


----------



## TomS

GA Gyro said:


> I will be reading to hear your decision and why... I may be learning CNC in a year or so.
> THX in advance for whatever you post!



I'm going with Mach 3.  It was difficult for me to ignore the large Mach 3 following.  I'll need the support when I get to the configuration stage.

Tom S


----------



## jumps4

Hi Tom
I didn't even know you started a build thread , I was looking in the cnc section.
Everything is looking good so far.
now that I have posted a message here I can follow along as you go.
Steve


----------



## jumps4

these controllers are wired  different from what Jim is saying 5v+ goes to dir+ and pul+ on all the controllers then returns to the breakout board to the respective pin as in this drawing. this is not your setup but an example of the bob wiring to these type controllers.
the words step and pulse mean the same thing and that is why I used both words.
here is a simple pic showing the breakout board wiring of a similar 4 axis setup
there are also enable+ (5v+ ) and enable- pins not shown on this diagram but they "all" (enable- ) return to pin 17 on the bob.
If you need one I can draw you an entire wiring diagram for your system with your z controller.
Steve


----------



## jumps4

your breakout board uses a usb cable from the pc for power, so the terminal marked "com" is the 5v+ that jumpers to every + connection on the controller, pul/step+, dir+ and en+. the other terminals returned to the marked connections. and all the enables are wired internally in the bob to return to pin 17 on the bob.
 I would leave all the motor on the bench for testing and they should be connected to the drivers before doing any power on tests. powering circuits without motors connected is hard on the drivers.

you may also want to consider a powered usb hub like this
ebay item # 351085595629
it keeps the pc's power supply isolated from your drivers

Steve


----------



## TomS

jumps4 said:


> your breakout board uses a usb cable from the pc for power, so the terminal marked "com" is the 5v+ that jumpers to every + connection on the controller, pul/step+, dir+ and en+. the other terminals returned to the marked connections. and all the enables are wired internally in the bob to return to pin 17 on the bob.
> I would leave all the motor on the bench for testing and they should be connected to the drivers before doing any power on tests. powering circuits without motors connected is hard on the drivers.
> 
> you may also want to consider a powered usb hub like this
> ebay item # 351085595629
> it keeps the pc's power supply isolated from your drivers
> 
> Steve



Thanks for the info.  A wiring diagram would be helpful.  For info I don't yet have a fourth axis but have made provisions for it at a later date.  The AC circuits are done and have been tested, e.g. spindle turns, fans work, e-stop shuts down power when pushed, etc.  Tasks for the next couple of days are to finish wiring the limit switches and wire the controllers to the breakout board.  All the low voltage wiring inside the cabinet will be shielded cable.

I think I have a spare USB hub.  If not I'll get one.  If I understand your thinking correctly the BoB is powered by the computer via a USB cable and the controllers get their 5v from the USB hub.  

I appreciate your offer to help.  I'm at the point where I need someone with experience to walk me through the control wiring and tuning.

Tom S


----------



## jumps4

sounds like your moving right along
quote " I think I have a spare USB hub. If not I'll get one. If I understand your thinking correctly the BoB is powered by the computer via a USB cable and the controllers get their 5v from the USB hub. "   No.
the usb hub I suggested is powered with a separate power pack that plugs in the wall outlet to supply the 5vdc instead of the pc supplying the power .
the usb hub will power the bob through it's usb cable ( thats all that cable does is supply power ) and the power to the drivers comes from the bob's "com" terminals for each axis to each driver and jumpers to each connection marked + , step/pul+ dir+ and en+ at the driver. then the terminals on the driver marked - .step/pul- dir- and en- each connect to the terminals on the bob for each axis on the board marked step dir and en.
when your ready the 4th axis wires the same as X and Y
you can use a single input pin for all the home and limit switches wired nc (normally closed ) in series. this leaves you with input pins left to use later for tool touch plate or a touch probe ect.
Steve


----------



## jumps4

see the connectors in the top of this pic and the jumpers in between each + terminal


----------



## jumps4

your z driver is marked different for enable + and -
on this driver they call it motor free + and -
it is wired the same way with the pu+ dr+ and mf+ all jumper-ed to "com" on the bob
and pu- dr- to their pins on the bob and the mf- to the en- on the bob.
nothing connects to the alarm, ready or nc terminals, they are left blank.
Steve


----------



## TomS

OK.  Now I understand.  I need to go to the shop and look at my controllers and BoB and your pictures and wiring diagram to get my arms around the wiring.  I'm learning a lot about electricity and electronics doing this conversion but still have a lot more to lern.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

jumps4 said:


> your z driver is marked different for enable + and -
> on this driver they call it motor free + and -
> it is wired the same way with the pu+ dr+ and mf+ all jumper-ed to "com" on the bob
> and pu- dr- to their pins on the bob and the mf- to the en- on the bob.
> nothing connects to the alarm, ready or nc terminals, they are left blank.
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 99177



More info to absorb.  All good stuff.

Thanks


----------



## TomS

Been thinking about how I am going to run the limit switch wiring from the mill to the electronics drawer.  Jumps4 sent me a series circuit diagram and others have also mentioned to wire them in series.  This all makes sense to me but I'm a "show me" kind of guy so I made a circuit diagram specific to my installation.  Hopefully I took the concept and applied it correctly.  First a bit of background info.  I have three limit switches - one for each axis.  There are pictures of my installation in post #65 above.  Each switch has two black wires.  One wire is numbered 1 and the other 2.  Did some internet reading and determined that the #1 wire is positive.  I plan to do all of the series wiring at the mill and run a positive wire to one of the Bob input terminals and a ground wire to the Bob ground terminal.  Comments and criticism welcome.


----------



## jumps4

as long as the switches are normally closed meaning they are completing the connection until the lever is tripped, your drawing is right.
Steve


----------



## TomS

jumps4 said:


> as long as the switches are normally closed meaning they are completing the connection until the lever is tripped, your drawing is right.
> Steve



Yes, they are normally closed.


----------



## TomS

Made some progress today with the control wiring.  This is nothing new or different but I wanted to post pictures so others can see what I'm doing and let me know if I've done something wrong or if there is a better way to do it.

I wired in a USB hub to power the breakout board and the relay for the power supplies.  Thanks to Jumps4 for this pointer.  Also got the X and Y axis drivers wired.  Next steps are wiring the Z axis driver and then connecting the drivers to the breakout board.    







Here's a close up of the X axis driver wiring.  Y axis is the same.


----------



## jumps4

you plug your uc100 if you have one and the breakout board into the hub also
then the hubs usb cable plugs into the pc
Steve


----------



## TomS

jumps4 said:


> you plug your uc100 if you have one and the breakout board into the hub also
> then the hubs usb cable plugs into the pc
> Steve



OK got it.  I just read your most recent post with bvd1940 about driver switch settings.  I have DQ860MA drivers on the X and Y axis and 1600 oz. in. motors also.  Are the switch settings shown correct for my setup?  What are the settings for the Z axis (DQ2722M)?

I'm out of town for the next week so I won't be able to do anything until I get back.

Tom S


----------



## jumps4

these are the switch settings for your drivers


----------



## TomS

jumps4 said:


> these are the switch settings for your drivers



Thanks.  I noticed that the X and Y axis power supplies have a voltage adjustment feature.  Do I need to check the voltage output before connecting them to the motors and drivers?  Hoping to get the Z axis wired as soon as I get home next week so I can test the motors. 

Tom S


----------



## jumps4

you can it would not hurt but the voltage is not that critical
as long as it's within a volt either way
Steve


----------



## TomS

jumps4 said:


> you can it would not hurt but the voltage is not that critical
> as long as it's within a volt either way
> Steve



I will check the voltage during the motor set up sequence.


----------



## TomS

Been on the road for the last week so was not able to get much done.  Yesterday I wired the X and Y drivers to the BoB and plugged the BoB and UC-100 into the USB hub.  I'll post pictures later today.

The Z axis is next. I understand the wiring schematic but how do I jumper the MF+, PU+, and DR+ using the plug that was supplied with the driver?  I suspect the + wires are joined together at the BoB "com" terminal but not sure.  A picture would help out a lot.

I regards to the dip switch settings I wanted to clarify that my drivers are set for 220v AC.  Not sure if that has an effect on these settings.

I'm not too far away from testing the motors.  Getting anxious to see this thing run under power.

Tom S


----------



## jumps4

you jumper them at the plug just like X and Y, they will fit in the connector housing.
Steve


----------



## TomS

Thanks Steve.  I didn't think you could solder two wires to one terminal.  Ill give it a try tomorrow.

I was going to attach a couple of shots of the X and Y axis and limit switches wired to the breakout board.  I also have the UC-100 and the Bob wired to the USB hub but the pictures I took aren't very good.  I'll take more tomorrow.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Tom, I soldered a short pigtail to each (+) pin on the connector and then twisted and soldered them together with the single wire to the BOB. Shrink wrap and zip tie to protect the bare ends.

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Tom, I soldered a short pigtail to each (+) pin on the connector and then twisted and soldered them together with the single wire to the BOB. Shrink wrap and zip tie to protect the bare ends.
> 
> Jay



Good idea!  I tried soldering two wires to one of the plug pins and it didn't work very well.  I melted the plastic piece that separates the pins.  Could be because I'm using 18 gauge wire and the pins take something smaller, like 20 or 22 gauge.  Tomorrow I need to find another plug and some smaller gauge wire.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

Got the Z axis wired to the BoB today.  With that out of the way I believe I'm ready to test the motors.  I've got 220v power to the power supplies through the SSR with the circuit protected with 4A slow blow fuses.  The drivers are wired to the power supplies.  The driver dip switches are set.  The BoB is wired to the drivers and connected to the USB hub for 5v power.  The UC-100 is also connected to the USB hub and the hub is connected to my laptop.  Still have to install the UC-100 software.  Cooling fans are working.  Limit/home switches are mounted and wired to the BoB.  Limit stops will be set once the motors are tested.  Mach 3 is loaded and the configuration file is installed.

Have I overlooked anything?  I don't want to smoke anything on start up.  Any tests I should run before powering up?  What tests should I run to verify that the system is responding correctly?

Here's a few pics of my electronics wiring.  I still have to tidy it up a bit.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> I've got 220v power to the power supplies through the SSR with the circuit protected with 4A slow blow fuses.



It looks like you have 110v through the SSR, your post says 220v? What are your power supplies set to? 110v or 220v?

Where is the 110v supply into the SSR coming from and what size breaker is it on? 

If you are concerned about powering up I would disconnect the drives from the power supplies and remove all but one fuse. Power up each PS one at a time and check the output voltage. Then hookup and test one drive & motor at a time.

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> It looks like you have 110v through the SSR, your post says 220v? What are your power supplies set to? 110v or 220v?
> 
> Where is the 110v supply into the SSR coming from and what size breaker is it on?
> 
> If you are concerned about powering up I would disconnect the drives from the power supplies and remove all but one fuse. Power up each PS one at a time and check the output voltage. Then hookup and test one drive & motor at a time.
> 
> Jay



Jay - Thanks for your questions and input.  I have two power feeds into the electronics enclosure.  The junction block next to the fuse holder and SSR is fed with 220v.  The other junction block next to the X axis power supply is fed with 110v.  I've set the X and Y axis power supplies to 220v.  The Z axis PS is voltage sensing so there is no manual setting.  The black wire is the 220v "Line/Load" feeding the SSR.  220v out of the SSR is feeding the fuse block.  The "neutral" in is feeding the junction block.  The terminals on the other side of the SSR are being fed with 5v DC.  Each power supply is protected with a 4A slow blow fuse.  Hope this is clear and not confusing.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> Jay - Thanks for your questions and input.  I have two power feeds into the electronics enclosure.  The junction block next to the fuse holder and SSR is fed with 220v.  The other junction block next to the X axis power supply is fed with 110v.  I've set the X and Y axis power supplies to 220v.  The Z axis PS is voltage sensing so there is no manual setting.  The black wire is the 220v "Line/Load" feeding the SSR.  220v out of the SSR is feeding the fuse block.  The "neutral" in is feeding the junction block.  The terminals on the other side of the SSR are being fed with 5v DC.  Each power supply is protected with a 4A slow blow fuse.  Hope this is clear and not confusing.
> 
> Tom S



So if I understand you correctly, the black, white & green three-wire coming into the SSR, terminal block and ground lug are (black = 110v, white = 110v and green = ground) and you are switching one leg of the 220v circuit?

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> So if I understand you correctly, the black, white & green three-wire coming into the SSR, terminal block and ground lug are (black = 110v, white = 110v and green = ground) and you are switching one leg of the 220v circuit?
> 
> Jay



No, I have two separate power feeds into the enclosure: one 220v and one 110v circuits.  The black, white and green wires coming into the SSR, terminal block and ground lug is 220v.  I measured the power across the SSR when I powered up the 5v DC transformer and I get 220V at the SSR.  The load side is protected by the fuse block (one 4A fuse per power supply) and the neutral side are the white wires going to each of the power supplies.  And the green is grounded at the lug.  110v power comes into the other junction block (next to the X axis power supply).  This circuit feeds the fans, the 5v DC transformer for the BoB power and SSR control signal, and the computer.

Sorry if I'm not being clear.  I'm electrically challenged and may be using terms and phrases that don't accurately describe what I've done.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

No worries. I'm pretty straight with standard residential wiring having been a general contractor for the past 25 years but I am also less comfortable with electronics or high voltage wiring.

Sorry if I am presenting what you may already know but I want to make sure we are on the same page.

Standard residential wiring is the US is typically as follows:

Three wires into the main service from the Utility company: Line 1 (110v), Line 2 (110v), Ground

Typical home circuit.
110vac (black wire = Line 1 (hot), (white wire = neutral) ( green or bare wire = ground). 110v is measured across the hot and neutral.
220v (3-wire), (black wire = Line 1 (hot), (Red wire = Line 2 (hot) ( green or bare wire = ground). 220v is measured across Line 1 & Line 2, or 110v from line 1 or 2 to ground.
220v (4-wire), (black wire = Line 1 (hot), (Red wire = Line 2 (hot) (white wire = neutral) ( green or bare wire = ground)

Where I am getting confused is when you say you have 220v to the SSR on a single wire? On your power supplies, for 220v, terminals L & N would connect to Line 1 and Line 2 . There would be no neutral, just ground.

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> No worries. I'm pretty straight with standard residential wiring having been a general contractor for the past 25 years but I am also less comfortable with electronics or high voltage wiring.
> 
> Sorry if I am presenting what you may already know but I want to make sure we are on the same page.
> 
> Standard residential wiring is the US is typically as follows:
> 
> Three wires into the main service from the Utility company: Line 1 (110v), Line 2 (110v), Ground
> 
> Typical home circuit.
> 110vac (black wire = Line 1 (hot), (white wire = neutral) ( green or bare wire = ground). 110v is measured across the hot and neutral.
> 220v (3-wire), (black wire = Line 1 (hot), (Red wire = Line 2 (hot) ( green or bare wire = ground). 220v is measured across Line 1 & Line 2, or 110v from line 1 or 2 to ground.
> 220v (4-wire), (black wire = Line 1 (hot), (Red wire = Line 2 (hot) (white wire = neutral) ( green or bare wire = ground)
> 
> Where I am getting confused is when you say you have 220v to the SSR on a single wire? On your power supplies, for 220v, terminals L & N would connect to Line 1 and Line 2 . There would be no neutral, just ground.
> 
> Jay



I'll take a close up picture of the 220v circuit and post it.  Maybe that will clear it up.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Tom, it occurred to me that the 220v side may be for 220v/50hz single wire which is a European standard. Are you sure you can run the power supply on US 220v/60hz? 

Jay


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> I'll take a close up picture of the 220v circuit and post it.  Maybe that will clear it up.
> 
> Tom S



Here are some close up pictures of the relay and power supply wiring.  I was incorrect when I said I had 220v across the relay when it was energized with 5v DC (actually 4.06v DC).  Don't know where that came from.  The relay doesn't appear to be closing on the AC side because I don't have continuity through the two terminals when the relay is energized.  

The 5v dc control signal to the relay is fed by the transformer that is located to the right of the fuse block.  I have assumed that the red wire is + and the black wire -.  When I power up the transformer the red indicator light on the relay lights up.  That leads me to believe the transformer is wired to the relay correctly.

The black wire connected to the #1 relay terminal and the white wire connected to the junction block left of the fuse block is my 220v input into the enclosure.  The green ground wire is not shown but it is connected to the grounding lug.  What is odd is I have 110-120 volts measured at the power supply line/load and neutral terminals to ground.  I can understand the neutral terminal showing voltage because of the way I have the circuit wired but I don't understand why I'm getting a voltage reading between the line/load terminal and ground.  






This picture shows the 220v wiring to one of the power supplies.  The black wire is load/line and comes from the fuse block.  The white wire is what I call neutral and comes from the junction block in the first picture.  The green/ground wire goes to the grounding lug.





  So I'm at a loss on how to wire this circuit.  Any direction you can give me is appreciated.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> I can understand the neutral terminal showing voltage because of the way I have the circuit wired but I don't understand why I'm getting a voltage reading between the line/load terminal and ground.




Without a fuse in the holder I would expect to see voltage to ground on both terminals because the Triac in the relay leaks a very small amount of current with 220 volt power connected.



TomS said:


> The relay doesn't appear to be closing on the AC side because I don't have continuity through the two terminals when the relay is energized.



Without the 220v power connected, and a load on the relay you won't see continuity on the relay, it requires a current flow to turn on.  Just checking with an ohmmeter across the unconnected terminals won't tell you anything.  The ohmmeter won't draw enough current to turn on the Triac.
.
.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Without a fuse in the holder I would expect to see voltage to ground on both terminals because the Triac in the relay leaks a very small amount of current with 220 volt power connected.
> 
> 
> 
> Without the 220v power connected, and a load on the relay you won't see continuity on the relay, it requires a current flow to turn on.  Just checking with an ohmmeter across the unconnected terminals won't tell you anything.  The ohmmeter won't draw enough current to turn on the Triac.
> .
> .



Thanks for the clarification.  Still trying to figure out how to wire this circuit.  The way it's currently wired I'm not getting 220v out of the relay.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

Are you measuring to ground or what you are calling neutral?  I would expect 120 to ground, and 240 to neutral assuming the ''neutral'' is actually the other leg of the 240.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Are you measuring to ground or what you are calling neutral?  I would expect 120 to ground, and 240 to neutral assuming the ''neutral'' is actually the other leg of the 240.



I'm calling the white wire neutral.  I get 220v measuring voltage between the black and white wires and 120v when measuring between each wire and ground.  Does this make sense?  I'm by no means an electrician.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

Yup, that makes sense.  That relay won't turn on until you put a load on it, in other words put a power supply fuse in and try it.  SSRs are a little strange in the way they work relative to a electro-mechanical relay.

I think I read earlier in this thread that you are supplying this panel with both 240 and 120 on separate circuits.  Using white for one leg of the 240 could be a bit confusing.  Normally 240 would be black and red.  White would normally be the neutral in the 120 volt circuit.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Yup, that makes sense.  That relay won't turn on until you put a load on it, in other words put a power supply fuse in and try it.  SSRs are a little strange in the way they work relative to a electro-mechanical relay.
> 
> I think I read earlier in this thread that you are supplying this panel with both 240 and 120 on separate circuits.  Using white for one leg of the 240 could be a bit confusing.  Normally 240 would be black and red.  White would normally be the neutral in the 120 volt circuit.



I hear you about the red wire.  I had a short 10ga 120v extension cord that I used for the 220v power supply.  That's how I ended up with a white wire in the circuit.  

Thanks to you and jbolt for helping me through this.  Tomorrow I'll power up the system and see if the motors turn.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Jim,

Are you familiar with these types of power supplies and the 110v / 220v switch? I'm just wondering if they will accept how we (USA) wire 220v vs the European system or maybe they accept both?

Jay


----------



## JimDawson

Yes, they will take 24o as we wire it and the European method..  These are a pretty standard universal power supply.


----------



## TomS

Well today was not a good day.  I powered up the system after loading the UC-100 software and no motor movement.  Apparently I'm not getting power to the power supplies.  The light on the BoB lights so I know it has power.  The relay is getting 4.06 volts on the control signal side and there is 220V on the AC inlet side of the relay but it appears no power out to the fuse panel.  Have I wired the 220v circuit correctly?  Could it be a faulty relay?  I have a spare so I'll change it in the morning.  If that doesn't solve the problem I can bypass the relay.  The only problem with that is I also lose on/off switching capability.  Could it be a configuration issue?  Any other thoughts? 

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

Those power supplies have a LED in them that comes on when powered.  Does the LED on the relay come on?

I assume it's wired something like this?


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Those power supplies have a LED in them that comes on when powered.  Does the LED on the relay come on?
> 
> I assume it's wired something like this?
> 
> View attachment 100155



Yep.  That's how I have it wired.  The PS light does not come on but the light on the relay is on.


----------



## JimDawson

I would jump out the relay and then turn the power on and see what happens.  That would tell you if the relay is not turning on.  4.6 volts may not be enough to turn it on.  I know it says 3-24VDC but you never know.  If you have a 12VDC wall wart, you might try that.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> I would jump out the relay and then turn the power on and see what happens.  That would tell you if the relay is not turning on.  4.6 volts may not be enough to turn it on.  I know it says 3-24VDC but you never know.  If you have a 12VDC wall wart, you might try that.



I had a 15vdc transformer originally installed but changed it out for the 5vdc currently installed to power the BoB.  I can easily plug it in to power the relay and see if that works.  If not I'll bypass the relay.

Thanks for your help.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

Success!!!  I bypassed the relay and the power supplies are now powered up and motors turn in both directions.  What was interesting is when I changed out the 5vdc transformer for a 12vdc transformer the light on the relay did not come on.  Wondering if the relays I have are correct for the installation.  I'll try one of my spare relays to determine if the relay is bad.  

Tom S


----------



## TomS

I changed out the relay and still have the same problem; no AC power through the relay.  Digging through a pile of papers I found the attached wiring schematic that came with my relays.  I'm confused by this diagram because it shows a connection to the #4 terminal and load.  Is this correct?

I mounted the motors and ran a few tests.  The X and Y axis motors run fine.  The Z axis travels down but won't travel up.  It makes noise in the up direction but no ball screw movement.  The coupling is tight.  Not sure what's going on with this because I was able to lower and raise the Z axis with my battery powered drill with little effort.  I would think the 4200 oz in stepper motor would have more power than the drill.  

I also tested the limit switches and nothing tripped.  First thing I need to do is double check the wiring.  I wired them in series but considering all the wiring I've done on this project I'm not surprised that I might have made a mistake.

I've also attached some pics of a few configuration screens.  Maybe it's a setting that is the cause of the Z axis motor  and limit switch issues.

I'm making progress but slowly.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> I'm confused by this diagram because it shows a connection to the #4 terminal and load. Is this correct?


'

I don't think you want a connection between the load and terminal 4 in this case.  That would be feeding 240V to the 5 volt, I suspect that would let the magic smoke out of several components.

The PDF shows a power source of 3 to 32 VDC, driving both the relay and the load.


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> Not sure what's going on with this because I was able to lower and raise the Z axis with my battery powered drill with little effort. I would think the 4200 oz in stepper motor would have more power than the drill.



What does your Z-axis profile look like?  It kind of sounds like the accel is set a bit high.  What is your step resolution set to?  They seem to work better at 1/4 step or higher.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> '
> 
> I don't think you want a connection between the load and terminal 4 in this case.  That would be feeding 240V to the 5 volt, I suspect that would let the magic smoke out of several components.
> 
> The PDF shows a power source of 3 to 32 VDC, driving both the relay and the load.



That's what I thought.  There's got to be something with how I've got it wired.  I've got 5vdc on the control side and it powers up the LED indicator light.  There's 240vac into the relay on the AC side but nothing coming out.


JimDawson said:


> '
> 
> I don't think you want a connection between the load and terminal 4 in this case.  That would be feeding 240V to the 5 volt, I suspect that would let the magic smoke out of several components.
> 
> The PDF shows a power source of 3 to 32 VDC, driving both the relay and the load.




That's wh


JimDawson said:


> '
> 
> I don't think you want a connection between the load and terminal 4 in this case.  That would be feeding 240V to the 5 volt, I suspect that would let the magic smoke out of several components.
> 
> The PDF shows a power source of 3 to 32 VDC, driving both the relay and the load.



That's what I thought.  I'm not sure that the diagram is for the relays I've got.  There's got to be a way to wire it so it will work.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> What does your Z-axis profile look like?  It kind of sounds like the accel is set a bit high.  What is your step resolution set to?  They seem to work better at 1/4 step or higher.



I'll gather some info on the Z axis and post it.  My gut is telling me it's a configuration issue but I need to read through the Mach 3 instruction manual again.  

Thanks,

Tom S


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> I'll gather some info on the Z axis and post it.  My gut is telling me it's a configuration issue but I need to read through the Mach 3 instruction manual again.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom S



Z axis settings - 

Steps per - 16297.08212

Velocity - 49.998

Acceleration - 15

Velocity and acceleration are the same for all three axis.  Steps per for X and y are about 5080 +/-.

Like I said in my previous post I need to do some reading so I can understand the consequences of changing settings.  It would seem logical to me that the Z axis acceleration should be lower than the X and Y because of the difference in weight.  Am I on track with this logic or off base?

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

I would say you are correct.  I would cut the accel by half and see what happens, maybe cut the speed to 25 also.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> I would say you are correct.  I would cut the accel by half and see what happens, maybe cut the speed to 25 also.



I'll give it a shot and report back.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

On the SSR, you have it wired correctly. I tested all my SSR's using a 110v lamp and breaking the load through the SSR. I would try this to verify the SSR is working. It may be that the SSR is not responding to switching one side of the 220v circuit.

Jay


----------



## jbolt

If you cannot get the SSR to work correctly with the 220v power supply's, I would suggest using the contactors that came with the mill. You have three of them and a 24vac transformer for the contactor coils.

I use the contactors to power up the all the electrical in the machine with the original on / off buttons. Up until I switched to the VFD I was switching the spindle on/off with Mach 3 using an SSR to activate one of the contactors.

Jay


----------



## jbolt

We have the same Z motor and driver. What are your dip switch settings on the Z driver? 

My motor settings in Mach3 are: Steps = 16253.xxxx, Velocity = 49.998, Acceleration = 10, step pulse = 5, dir pulse = 5

My gut feeling is you may have a wiring issue. 

My dip switch settings.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> If you cannot get the SSR to work correctly with the 220v power supply's, I would suggest using the contactors that came with the mill. You have three of them and a 24vac transformer for the contactor coils.
> 
> I use the contactors to power up the all the electrical in the machine with the original on / off buttons. Up until I switched to the VFD I was switching the spindle on/off with Mach 3 using an SSR to activate one of the contactors.
> 
> Jay



I could use the contactors and that would solve the problem.  But it bugs the hell out of me that it doesn't work and I don't know why.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> On the SSR, you have it wired correctly. I tested all my SSR's using a 110v lamp and breaking the load through the SSR. I would try this to verify the SSR is working. It may be that the SSR is not responding to switching one side of the 220v circuit.
> 
> Jay



I'll give this a try and see what happens.  Thanks for the idea.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> We have the same Z motor and driver. What are your dip switch settings on the Z driver?
> 
> My motor settings in Mach3 are: Steps = 16253.xxxx, Velocity = 49.998, Acceleration = 10, step pulse = 5, dir pulse = 5
> 
> My gut feeling is you may have a wiring issue.
> 
> My dip switch settings.
> 
> View attachment 100244



Here's a picture of my dip switch settings.  They're different than yours.  I'll need to look at the driver manual to see how these different settings  affect motor performance.  My steps are set the same, or nearly the same as yours.  Mine are 16K plus but at the moment I don't have access to my computer with Mach 3 on it to verify the exact number.  Velocity is the same but acceleration is set at 15.  Step pulse and dir pulse are both set at 5.  I did test the motors on the bench and all three turned in both directions.  Obviously that's with no load.  What should I be looking at in the wiring that might be causing this?  I truly appreciate everyone's help.  Thanks.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Your dip switch settings are the same as mine so you should be okay with that.

Check all your wire termination points at the motor, drive, power supply, BOB and panel connectors if you are using them. It's possible a wire does not have a solid connection at one of these points. 

The 4200 oz stepper moves my mill head likes its not there.

Jay


----------



## JimDawson

I don't understand why the SSR doesn't work either, you have it wired correctly.  As jbolt suggested, I would wire up a lamp and see it it will turn that on.  The other thing I would do is put a 10mF capacitor across the 5 volt as a filter and see if that has any effect on the operation.


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> I could use the contactors and that would solve the problem.  But it bugs the hell out of me that it doesn't work and I don't know why.
> 
> Tom S



It may be that the power supply is not drawing enough current to turn the SSR on. It's my understanding if the SSR does not see a minimum current from the load they won't turn on.

Jay


----------



## TomS

Got to help a neighbor with a landscape project today.  Won't get to testing the SSR or checking wiring until tomorrow.  Thanks to all for your input.  

Tom S


----------



## TomS

I checked all of the Z axis wiring to make sure I had good connections.  Removed all of the control and power wires and ran continuity checks.  All were good including the aviation plugs.  So I fired it back up and when I reset the E-stop an error dialogue box popped up that said UC100 did not respond.  I checked the connections and restarted Mach 3.  Made sure the green and blue UC100 lights were lit and hit the E-stop button.  Again I got the same error dialogue box.  Restarted Mach 3 and selected the Plugin Control button, then clicked on UC100.  Got another error dialogue box that said "UC100 not found.  Please check the connection and restart Mach 3!"  Restarted again and was able to open the UC100 I/O monitor.  I noticed that the Max step rate was set at 100k Hz.  This setting was different than the kernel speed setting in the Motor Tuning section, which was 25k Hz.  I changed the kernel speed setting in the UC100 to match the motor tuning setting and closed the UC100 I/O monitor.  Restarted Mach 3 again and now the E-stop will not reset.  So I guess I will go back into the UC100 I/O Monitor and change the kernel speed back to 100k Hz even though the UC100 instructions are clear that the motor tuning and UC100 settings need to match.  Sheesh!  This is frustrating.

By the way I tested all four of my SSR's by using a lamp.  Same for all four, no power to the lamp.  So if the SSR needs to see current draw from the power supplies how is that done?  Do you configure the motors to be in a braking mode at startup?

I did reset the Z axis motor tuning to about 25 velocity and 7 on acceleration.  Haven't been able to test it yet because of the E-stop issues.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> By the way I tested all four of my SSR's by using a lamp.  Same for all four, no power to the lamp.  So if the SSR needs to see current draw from the power supplies how is that done?  Do you configure the motors to be in a braking mode at startup?
> 
> Tom S



Sorry you are having so much trouble. I know how frustrating it is.

Are you saying the SSR's worked with the lamp or not?

On the UC100, are you powering up all 3 axis at the same time or only one axis at a time for testing? I had a similar issue when one of the power supplies did not power on and the UC100 would fault. If you are testing one axis at a time with the power off to the other axis be sure to disable the other axis in Mach3.

Jay


----------



## jbolt

Also, change Mach3 to 100k on the port setup page.

Jay


----------



## JimDawson

I suspect that the kernel setting has nothing to do with the E-stop unless the UC100 is sending some kind of an error to Mach.  I would look at the E-stop setting in Mach

I assume you are trying to turn on a known good, 60 Watt or so, 120V lamp with the SSRs.  If they won't turn that on then I would say there is a major problem with the SSRs.  The power supplies draw more than enough start up current to turn on the SSRs


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Sorry you are having so much trouble. I know how frustrating it is.
> 
> Are you saying the SSR's worked with the lamp or not?
> 
> On the UC100, are you powering up all 3 axis at the same time or only one axis at a time for testing? I had a similar issue when one of the power supplies did not power on and the UC100 would fault. If you are testing one axis at a time with the power off to the other axis be sure to disable the other axis in Mach3.
> 
> Jay



The SSR's did not work with the lamp.

I'm powering up all three axis at the same time.  But I do have good news.  The two screws on the ends of the Z axis power supply/driver terminal block were loose.  I turned them down about 4 turns to get them tight.  After doing this the Z axis moves up and down and the UC100 error code doesn't come up.  Evidently the terminal block wasn't making a good connection and tightening the screws cured it.  We'll see.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Also, change Mach3 to 100k on the port setup page.
> 
> Jay



So Mach 3 and the UC100 should both be 100k kernel speed.  Correct?


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> I suspect that the kernel setting has nothing to do with the E-stop unless the UC100 is sending some kind of an error to Mach.  I would look at the E-stop setting in Mach
> 
> I assume you are trying to turn on a known good, 60 Watt or so, 120V lamp with the SSRs.  If they won't turn that on then I would say there is a major problem with the SSRs.  The power supplies draw more than enough start up current to turn on the SSRs



Yes, it is a 100 watt bulb.  Seems strange that all four are bad.  

See my post to jbolt about the Z axis terminal block.  Problem cured I hope.

Next is the limit/homing settings.  I wired the switches in series and wired the two leads into the BoB.  That caused the E-stop to activate and I couldn't reset it.  I don't think this is a problem yet because there are no settings yet in Mach 3 for limits.  I'll read up on this subject tonight and attack it in the morning.

Thank to you and jbolt for your help.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> The SSR's did not work with the lamp.
> 
> I'm powering up all three axis at the same time.  But I do have good news.  The two screws on the ends of the Z axis power supply/driver terminal block were loose.  I turned them down about 4 turns to get them tight.  After doing this the Z axis moves up and down and the UC100 error code doesn't come up.  Evidently the terminal block wasn't making a good connection and tightening the screws cured it.  We'll see.



That great news! I'm glad you found it.

That's crazy that all the SSR's don't work? What low volt DC source were you using to test, the 5v or 12v?

Jay


----------



## JimDawson

jbolt said:


> That's crazy that all the SSR's don't work? What low volt DC source were you using to test, the 5v or 12v?



I agree, that is crazy.  Just for a test, try to turn on the SSRs with a 9 or 12 volt battery.  If they work, then I suspect that the DC coming from your wall wart is not filtered and needs a capacitor across the 5Volt terminals to take out the ripple.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> That great news! I'm glad you found it.
> 
> That's crazy that all the SSR's don't work? What low volt DC source were you using to test, the 5v or 12v?
> 
> Jay



I was using the 12vdc transformer.  I could try the 5v transformer but I'm thinking I'll get the same results.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> I agree, that is crazy.  Just for a test, try to turn on the SSRs with a 9 or 12 volt battery.  If they work, then I suspect that the DC coming from your wall wart is not filtered and needs a capacitor across the 5Volt terminals to take out the ripple.



I ran the lamp test using a 9 volt battery and the SSR turned on the light.  The SSR's are good.  So it looks like I need to get a 10mF capacitor for a filter.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

Got the limit switch pin setting figured out.  Pin 12 is the Input #3 on the BoB.  I actuated each limit switch and got a limit switch activated message in the Status dialogue box.  Pressed the Reset button and the message cleared.  So this appears to be working.  

Next issue is the E-stop.  I  set the pin number to each of the available input pins.  #12 pin seemed to be the logical choice as it is tied to the limit switches.  However, when I push the reset button I get the dreaded UC100 communication error.  I've read through the Mach 3 installation manual, the UC100 manual and the literature for my BoB and can't figure out what the correct settings should be.  Do I check E-stop Active Low, do I need to select Auto Limit Overide, do I need to select Overide Limits, do I need to select Active Low on the limit switches?  Maybe I'm completely off base here but I'm real close to making this thing run and getting anxious.

Thanks,


Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> I ran the lamp test using a 9 volt battery and the SSR turned on the light.  The SSR's are good.  So it looks like I need to get a 10mF capacitor for a filter.
> 
> Tom S



You might also confirm that the output of the wall warts is DC, I have seen some that are AC output.  I normally have to use a magnifying glass to see the data plate on the wall wart, but your eyes might be better than mine.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> You might also confirm that the output of the wall warts is DC, I have seen some that are AC output.  I normally have to use a magnifying glass to see the data plate on the wall wart, but your eyes might be better than mine.



Man, am I learning a lot about electricity and electronics!  I just checked and found out the 12 volt transformer is AC output.  That explains why it didn't turn on the SSR LED light.  The transformer that is installed is 5VDC output and does power up the USB hub which feeds the SSR and the BoB.  Still need the filter because the 9V battery powered up the SSR but the 5VDC transformer won't.  

Tom S


----------



## bvd1940

TomS said:


> Man, am I learning a lot about electricity and electronics!  I just checked and found out the 12 volt transformer is AC output.  That explains why it didn't turn on the SSR LED light.  The transformer that is installed is 5VDC output and does power up the USB hub which feeds the SSR and the BoB.  Still need the filter because the 9V battery powered up the SSR but the 5VDC transformer won't.
> 
> Tom S


Don't feel bad, you never let any magic smoke out did you? when the smoke escapes that's when you feel bad
I hope to get back to my project this week, yours looks to be moving right along nicely Tom.
Bill


----------



## TomS

bvd1940 said:


> Don't feel bad, you never let any magic smoke out did you? when the smoke escapes that's when you feel bad
> I hope to get back to my project this week, yours looks to be moving right along nicely Tom.
> Bill



Thanks for the encouragement and no magic smoke escaped.  Thank God!  My conversion is moving along but at a slow pace.  These gremlins keep popping up but the instructions that came with the electronics/software are lacking in details.  I've been using the trial and error method but that doesn't always work.  If it wasn't for the support I've received from forum members I wouldn't be this far along.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> Got the limit switch pin setting figured out.  Pin 12 is the Input #3 on the BoB.  I actuated each limit switch and got a limit switch activated message in the Status dialogue box.  Pressed the Reset button and the message cleared.  So this appears to be working.
> 
> Next issue is the E-stop.  I  set the pin number to each of the available input pins.  #12 pin seemed to be the logical choice as it is tied to the limit switches.  However, when I push the reset button I get the dreaded UC100 communication error.  I've read through the Mach 3 installation manual, the UC100 manual and the literature for my BoB and can't figure out what the correct settings should be.  Do I check E-stop Active Low, do I need to select Auto Limit Overide, do I need to select Overide Limits, do I need to select Active Low on the limit switches?  Maybe I'm completely off base here but I'm real close to making this thing run and getting anxious.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Tom S



I'm not familiar with your BOB. Do you have a link to a manual for your BOB? Does the BOB have dedicated terminals for an e-stop? What type of switch are you using for the e-stop?


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> I'm not familiar with your BOB. Do you have a link to a manual for your BOB? Does the BOB have dedicated terminals for an e-stop? What type of switch are you using for the e-stop?



Here's the manual I found on-line for my BoB.  I'm using the switch that came with my mill and I haven't changed any of the e-stop wiring.  

As a side note I've done some more reading on the internet about UC100 issues.  From what I read interference is a big issue on low voltage systems and may be the cause of the UC100 losing connection.   One of the sources of interference may be the flouresent lights in my shop.  I'll test the system with the lights off and see what effect that has.  I'm going to set debounce interval to 2000 and work down from there.  If I can get the number low enough I may be OK.  Another suggestion is to get a double shielded UC100/USB cable.  May do this anyway just to reduce/eliminate interference problems.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Okay your BOB does not have a dedicated e-stop. Are your limit switches in series or parallel? What pin #(s) are you using for the limit switches?

My BOB is different and has a dedicated e-stop terminal so I am pulling this from memory when I was first setting up my mill with a different BOB. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am giving you bad info.

If you have the LS's in series then put the e-stop switch in that chain, wire the e-stop switch to the NC terminals and set the active low to the same as the LS's. I believe Mach3 uses pin #10 as the default e-stop pin so I would use that. 

If in parallel put the e-stop on pin 10 and X,Y & Z would then be on pins 11, 12 & 13


----------



## TomS

Leaving the shop lights off and setting the debounce to 2000 didn't have any effect.  What I did do was unbolt and set the BoB as far away from the Z axis power supply/driver (about 8") as I could.  I started Mach 3 with no 220v power to the power supplies.  I was able to reset the e-stop without getting a UC100 error.  As soon as I plugged in 220v power and the PS started up I got the error message.  This points to electrical interference.  Question is how far away from the power supplies does the BoB need to be?  Will double shielded USB cables be sufficient?

Tom S


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Okay your BOB does not have a dedicated e-stop. Are your limit switches in series or parallel? What pin #(s) are you using for the limit switches?
> 
> My BOB is different and has a dedicated e-stop terminal so I am pulling this from memory when I was first setting up my mill with a different BOB. Hopefully someone will correct me if I am giving you bad info.
> 
> If you have the LS's in series then put the e-stop switch in that chain, wire the e-stop switch to the NC terminals and set the active low to the same as the LS's. I believe Mach3 uses pin #10 as the default e-stop pin so I would use that.
> 
> If in parallel put the e-stop on pin 10 and X,Y & Z would then be on pins 11, 12 & 13



My limit switches are wired in series and are connected to Pin #12 (input #3 on the BoB) and have the e-stop set to Pin #12.  I'll look at my e-stop switch but isn't it already wired as NC?  In any case I'm assuming when you say "wire the e-stop switch to the NC terminals"  you mean the NC terminals on the e-stop.  Is this correct?

The more I thought about it (see post below) I don't think electrical interference is the culprit.  I'm saying this so anyone reading this thread will be clear on what we are doing and why we are doing it.  I'm learning and I want others to learn from what we are doing.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> My limit switches are wired in series and are connected to Pin #12 (input #3 on the BoB) and have the e-stop set to Pin #12.  I'll look at my e-stop switch but isn't it already wired as NC?  In any case I'm assuming when you say "wire the e-stop switch to the NC terminals"  you mean the NC terminals on the e-stop.  Is this correct?
> 
> 
> Tom S



If you are using the e-stop switch that came with the machine and it is the same as mine then it is only NC.

Here is a typical e-stop with both configurations.


----------



## jbolt

Check this link for limit/home e-stop wiring and mach3 config. Starts about half way down the page.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Check this link for limit/home e-stop wiring and mach3 config. Starts about half way down the page.



Thanks for the link.  Seems simple enough to wire the switch into the limit switch circuit.  Need to figure out how to wire it so the spindle also shuts down.

Thanks for the help.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Are you planning on turning the spindle on and off with mach3? 

You can do that with one of the contactors and a SSR. An e-stop or limit trip would stop the spindle.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Are you planning on turning the spindle on and off with mach3?
> 
> You can do that with one of the contactors and a SSR. An e-stop or limit trip would stop the spindle.



Not going to turn the spindle on and off with Mach 3 at this time.  Maybe later once the mill is up and running with a few hours on it.  I would like to wire the e-stop so that it stops axis movement and spindle rotation when activated.  The spindle motor circuit wiring is as it came from the factory; the 24vdc transformer latches the spindle contactor (KM1).

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

If you want to stop the spindle with only the e-stop button you could do that by switching the spindle motor contactor with an e-stop switch with 2 NC contacts, 1 for the limit circuit and one for the contactor coil circuit. This would not stop the spindle on a limit trip. A switch like this with an extra NC contact block would do the trick.

To stop the spindle on an e-stop and limit trip you need to trip the contactor with a relay. Your BOB has a low volt relay that could control an SSR that would then control the contactor coil. At that point you are controlling the spindle with mach3.

Before I did the VFD conversion I had my spindle wired to run from mach3 or manualy using a 3 position switch. In position 1, mach3 would turn on a SSR to energize the contactor.  Position 2 was all off. Position 3 would bypass the SSR and energize the contactor directly. I found this useful for doing manual work or using edge finders. 

Having used the mill for over a year I am now comfortable using mach3 to do what I used to do manually.

Jay

Also, I have my system wired with 2 e-stops. One is through the BOB and stops the axis and spindle. The other kills all power to the machine for that "oh crap my machines is on fire" moment we hope never happens.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> If you want to stop the spindle with only the e-stop button you could do that by switching the spindle motor contactor with an e-stop switch with 2 NC contacts, 1 for the limit circuit and one for the contactor coil circuit. This would not stop the spindle on a limit trip. A switch like this with an extra NC contact block would do the trick.
> 
> To stop the spindle on an e-stop and limit trip you need to trip the contactor with a relay. Your BOB has a low volt relay that could control an SSR that would then control the contactor coil. At that point you are controlling the spindle with mach3.
> 
> Before I did the VFD conversion I had my spindle wired to run from mach3 or manualy using a 3 position switch. In position 1, mach3 would turn on a SSR to energize the contactor.  Position 2 was all off. Position 3 would bypass the SSR and energize the contactor directly. I found this useful for doing manual work or using edge finders.
> 
> Having used the mill for over a year I am now comfortable using mach3 to do what I used to do manually.
> 
> Jay
> 
> Also, I have my system wired with 2 e-stops. One is through the BOB and stops the axis and spindle. The other kills all power to the machine for that "oh crap my machines is on fire" moment we hope never happens.



Thanks for the info.  I'm going to wire the existing e-stop into the limit switch circuit so I can reset Mach 3 and move on to setting my limit stops.  In the mean time I'll order a 2 contact e-stop.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

I wired the e-stop into the limit switch circuit.  Started Mach 3 and everything was normal.  I was able to move all three axis in both directions.  I manually tripped one of the limit switches and as expected I got a limit tripped message in the status window.  I clicked reset and immediately got the UC100 did not respond error message.  Double checked my input pin settings and confirmed as follows:

XX++, XX--, Y++, Y--, Z++ and Z-- are enabled, pin 12 in each of the pin number boxes, and active low checked for each.  Also tried it with the active low boxes not checked. 

Restarted Mach 3 and clicked reset.  Limit switch tripped error did not clear.  Shut down and restarted Mach 3.  Now I'm getting an e-stop tripped message in the status box and it won't clear when I press reset.  I'm at a loss as to why it worked when I started up the first time but now it's not allowing me to reset.  For info I opened the UC100 monitor window and #12 pin light is not lit.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Any time you get a fault with the UC100 you need to restart Mach3 to reset the plug-in.

Try removing and re-installing the UC100 plug-in. 

What computer are you using?

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Any time you get a fault with the UC100 you need to restart Mach3 to reset the plug-in.
> 
> Try removing and re-installing the UC100 plug-in.
> 
> What computer are you using?
> 
> Jay



I do restart Mach 3 everytime I get the UC100 error message.  I did reload the application but did not manually remove the initial installation.  I'll try removing it and reload and see what happens.

My computer is an HP laptop running Windows 7 64 bit.  From what I've read Mach 3, D2NC (CAM software) and UC100 should run.

Tom S


----------



## bvd1940

TomS said:


> I do restart Mach 3 everytime I get the UC100 error message.  I did reload the application but did not manually remove the initial installation.  I'll try removing it and reload and see what happens.
> 
> My computer is an HP laptop running Windows 7 64 bit.  From what I've read Mach 3, D2NC (CAM software) and UC100 should run.
> 
> Tom S


I am not sure Tom but I have saw a lot of posts that say it will not run on Win 7 64 bit. I think it has to be 32 bit to run Mach 3, I might be wrong but what do I know
Bill


----------



## TomS

bvd1940 said:


> I am not sure Tom but I have saw a lot of posts that say it will not run on Win 7 64 bit. I think it has to be 32 bit to run Mach 3, I might be wrong but what do I know
> Bill


Bill - Thanks for your input.  I've read the same thing but have also read where Mach 3 and UC100 are 64 bit compatible.  At this point I'm not sure what's causing the problems.  I'm thinking I should reinstall Mach 3 and UC100.  

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> Bill - Thanks for your input.  I've read the same thing but have also read where Mach 3 and UC100 are 64 bit compatible.  At this point I'm not sure what's causing the problems.  I'm thinking I should reinstall Mach 3 and UC100.
> 
> Tom S



I was not able to make them work on a desktop with win7-64. I went back to XP.

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> I was not able to make them work on a desktop with win7-64. I went back to XP.
> 
> Jay



I took the limit switches and e-stop out of the equation by assigning them to port #0.  Still getting the UC100 error message.  I'm going to reinstall the UC100 driver in the morning and see if that helps.

I may end up going to XP or Windows 7 32 bit.  Who knows where this will take me.

Tom S


----------



## bvd1940

If twas me I think I would try win 7 32 bit, coarse it would be nice to see ifin the win 7 32 would run it but that's lots of work.
I wish they would up grade Mach 3 for 64 bit after digging into 7 64 pro it has some nice features IMHO. 
Bill


----------



## TomS

bvd1940 said:


> If twas me I think I would try win 7 32 bit, coarse it would be nice to see ifin the win 7 32 would run it but that's lots of work.
> I wish they would up grade Mach 3 for 64 bit after digging into 7 64 pro it has some nice features IMHO.
> Bill



I went to the Mach 3 website to find out what they had to say about specific software and hardware requirements.  I found that if using the parallel port for control *32-bit* version of Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista, or Windows 7 (64-bit versions will not work).  However, if using an external motion device for machine control (options can be found on the Plugins page) a Desktop or Laptop with Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8 can be used.  I'm using a UC100 motion controller which is listed on the Artsoft plugins page.   

I've met Mach 3 requirements in that regards but the fact remains that I still can't get Mach 3 to reset without getting the UC100 error message.  Without appearing to be stubborn I'd like to exhaust all other possibilities before changing operating systems.  First item on the agenda is to reload the UC100 driver.  I'm also looking in to a double shielded USB to UC100 cable with ferrite beads.  Not sure if they make them but I'm looking.  After that it's back to head scratching.

Tom S


----------



## bvd1940

Well I will be following your progress to see how it comes out as I would like to change over later but not till I have the panel with finished wiring and proper power feeds installed (and running like it should).
Good luck with your system and hope it falls into place for you.
Bill


----------



## tmarks11

Why not just jump to Mach4?  They have a plug-in for parallel ports (even better, there is a beta plug-in now for the Ethernet Smooth Stepper).

This way you can use a modern OS, and have a modern GUI.


----------



## jbolt

If you have or can borrow a pc with win xp I would give it a try. It will tell you if you have an os problem or a uc100/mach3 problem.

Jay


----------



## TomS

bvd1940 said:


> Well I will be following your progress to see how it comes out as I would like to change over later but not till I have the panel with finished wiring and proper power feeds installed (and running like it should).
> Good luck with your system and hope it falls into place for you.
> Bill



Thanks.  Been trying different things trying to get Mach 3 and the UC100 to play together.  Still not working but I'm not giving up.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

tmarks11 said:


> Why not just jump to Mach4?  They have a plug-in for parallel ports (even better, there is a beta plug-in now for the Ethernet Smooth Stepper).
> 
> This way you can use a modern OS, and have a modern GUI.



I just purchased Mach 3 and haven't got my machine running yet.  Putting out another $200 for software is not in the cards at this time.  Everything I've read says that Windows 7 64 bit, Mach 3 and UC100 will work together and I'm determined to find out why it's not.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> If you have or can borrow a pc with win xp I would give it a try. It will tell you if you have an os problem or a uc100/mach3 problem.
> 
> Jay



I think I may have a faulty UC100 or cable.  I reloaded the driver from the CNCDrive.com website but still getting the UC100 did not respond error and occasionally a UC100 not found error.  I'm going to contact the UC100 vendor  and ask if they will send me another one.

BTW - I'll ask around to see if anyone has a computer running XP.  That will certainly answer several questions.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

I connected the UC100 directly to my laptop instead of through the USB hub and I'm no longer getting errors.  Also ran some simple pocketing g-code and didn't get any errors.  Guess I have a faulty USB hub.  Now I can focus on cleaning up the wiring and learning Mach 3 and it's capabilities.

BTW - I put a 10mf capacitor on the SSR control signal feed and nothing happened.  Still not completing the circuit.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> BTW - I put a 10mf capacitor on the SSR control signal feed and nothing happened. Still not completing the circuit.



That is strange, I would love to look at the output of the wall wart with a scope and see what it looks like.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> That is strange, I would love to look at the output of the wall wart with a scope and see what it looks like.



I'm stumped too.  Maybe the new USB hub power supply will be the cure.


----------



## TomS

Everything seems to be working OK now.  The limit switches were driving me up the wall so I checked all my wire connections and they were good, or so I thought.  Had continuity from the limit switches thru to the two wires that connect to the BoB.  So rather than fight it I wired each switch individually to the BoB and now I can reset.  Evidently the problem was in my wiring the switches in series.  

Now that all these bugs have been worked out I was able to set my limits and run G-code.  And wouldn't you know it I was about five minutes into running G-code and my laptop power supply died.  Jeez will it ever end?  Luckily I had a spare power supply so it's not slowing me down.

Next steps are cleaning up the wiring, building a riser for my monitor, and making an enclosure.  I'm not using flood coolant but want to contain the chips.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> Everything seems to be working OK now.  The limit switches were driving me up the wall so I checked all my wire connections and they were good, or so I thought.  Had continuity from the limit switches thru to the two wires that connect to the BoB.  So rather than fight it I wired each switch individually to the BoB and now I can reset.  Evidently the problem was in my wiring the switches in series.
> 
> Now that all these bugs have been worked out I was able to set my limits and run G-code.  And wouldn't you know it I was about five minutes into running G-code and my laptop power supply died.  Jeez will it ever end?  Luckily I had a spare power supply so it's not slowing me down.
> 
> Next steps are cleaning up the wiring, building a riser for my monitor, and making an enclosure.  I'm not using flood coolant but want to contain the chips.
> 
> Tom S



Forgot to mention that the new USB hub cured the problems I was having with the SSR and the UC100 error messages.  All is good.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

Wiring is finished and I was able to "play" with Mach 3 for a couple of hours today.  What I noticed is the jog directions for the up/down and left/right keyboard buttons do not match the movement directions of the control buttons fly-out X and Y buttons.  Z axis is no problem.  Both sets of buttons move the axis in the same direction.  I've gone into limit/home switches on the config menu and checked reverse.  This works but it reverses the direction for the hot keys and the flyout keys.  I also tried key emulation on the input pin screen but that didn't change anything.  Looked through the Mach Support forum but couldn't find anything related to the situation I have.  From a safety perspective I'd like to have continuity between the two jog options.  

Thanks,

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

Sounds like you need to set the hotkeys.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Sounds like you need to set the hotkeys.



Is setting the hot keys the same as emulation on the Input Signals screen?  If it is I tried that and it had no effect on direction.


----------



## JimDawson

No, the hot keys are set under Config, System Hotkeys in the main menu bar.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> No, the hot keys are set under Config, System Hotkeys in the main menu bar.



Got it.  I'll try this in the morning.

Thanks


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> Got it.  I'll try this in the morning.
> 
> Thanks



Jim - made the changes and both the keyboard keys and flyout buttons are now in sync.  Thanks.  Next on the agenda is checking movement accuracy as I changed the kernel speed from 25k to 100k.  Not sure what I'm going to see but I'm learning.


----------



## JimDawson

Happy to hear that worked.  Now comes the real fun, calibrating and tuning the motors.


----------



## TomS

I consider myself somewhat computer savvy and of average intelligence but I've had no luck with Mach 3 motor calibration.  .  This is my procedure and dilemma.  My X and Y axis drives are set for 1000 micro steps, have 5 pitch ball screws and are direct drive.  Went to motor tuning in the config menu and input 5000 in the Steps Per box and saved the axis setting.  I set up a 123 block square to the table and zeroed my DTI to the 123 block after removing backlash.  Went to the Settings tab and clicked on Set Steps Per Unit, selected Axis Section and clicked on X.  Input 3 in the distance to move dialogue box and clicked OK.  The table moved about 3".  Using another 123 block I slipped it in between the 123 block clamped to the table and my DTI.  My DTI is .030" travel and evidently the table moved less than 3" because I maxed out the DTI travel.  My guess was that the table moved about 2.970" so I entered that in the dialogue box.  I accepted the number in the Steps per Unit box.  My logic is I could run this exercise again and get closer with each successive run.  Not so.  Each time I ran it I am getting further away from my 3" calibration mark.

I know there are literally thousands, if not tens of thousands, of copies of Mach 3 in use so I can't blame the software.  What am I doing wrong?  If you need additional information I'll gladly provide it.  This can't be as hard as I'm making it.

Thanks for your help.  

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

You have 5mm pitch ball screws so you initial setting should be 5080. 25.4/5 = 5.08*1000 = 5080.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> You have 5mm pitch ball screws so you initial setting should be 5080. 25.4/5 = 5.08*1000 = 5080.



Thanks Jay.  I had it etched into my brain that my ball screws were 5 pitch, not 5mm pitch.  I will input 5080 into the Steps Per box then fine tune, if necessary, using the Set Steps Per Unit feature on the Settings page.

For info I played with the velocity and acceleration slide bars and have a feel for where I need to be.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> Thanks Jay.  I had it etched into my brain that my ball screws were 5 pitch, not 5mm pitch.  I will input 5080 into the Steps Per box then fine tune, if necessary, using the Set Steps Per Unit feature on the Settings page.
> 
> For info I played with the velocity and acceleration slide bars and have a feel for where I need to be.
> 
> Tom S



Your number worked great!  The X axis was within .0015" of my target and the Y axis was within .0005".  I fine tuned the X axis and it is now spot on.  Tomorrow I'll work on the Z axis.  I'm slowly moving forward but slow progress is still progress.

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

Fantastic! You are getting close to making chip! 

I was super cautions when I ran my first parts. The first thing I did was run a text program with a Sharpie held in a collet. When that went well I did a couple parts in acrylic. That really helped in gaining confidence with the machine and software. 

When you get into metals I highly recommend G-Wizard for calculating speeds and feeds. CNC machining can be way different from manual machining.

Oh and be sure to post some pictures!

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Fantastic! You are getting close to making chip!
> 
> I was super cautions when I ran my first parts. The first thing I did was run a text program with a Sharpie held in a collet. When that went well I did a couple parts in acrylic. That really helped in gaining confidence with the machine and software.
> 
> When you get into metals I highly recommend G-Wizard for calculating speeds and feeds. CNC machining can be way different from manual machining.
> 
> Oh and be sure to post some pictures!
> 
> Jay



Got the Z axis calibrated today and set velocity and acceleration.  All three axis' are set at 180 ipm and acceleration at 18.  The motors run smooth and reasonably quiet.  These settings will change but I wanted to see what the motors were capable of.  I checked backlash and was quite surprised to find X and Y with less than .001".  I'm sure these numbers will change after I have a few hours of run time on the machine.  Z is another story as I have about .018" of backlash.  I wasn't expecting it to be as good as X and Y but .018" is excessive.  I'll look into it but I'm certain the contributing source is between the ball nut housing and the sleeve that connects to the headstock base casting.  I need to make this as one piece.  If I can get less than .007" I'll be happy.

Next steps are to make guards to keep chips out of the motor couplings and an enclosure.  And of course play with the machine.     

Tom S


----------



## TomS

I was going to play with my mill today using a felt tip marker to test my programming but had a glitch with my D2NC software and will have to reload it.  That pesky UC100 Did Not Respond message reared it's ugly head again but I think it was nothing more than a startup glitch.  Restarted the computer and all is well again.  I did get all of the motor, limit switch and power cables organized and up off the floor and I made a couple of chip guards for X and Y axis couplings.  And fine tuned the Ultron quick change tool holder system.  Now I can start on the enclosure.


----------



## TomS

After reloading the D2NC software I'm still having the same problem.  What's interesting is I have a duplicate copy of D2NC loaded on my other laptop and loading the same .dxf file it works fine.  This leads me to believe the process I'm using is correct.  

Here's what I'm doing.  I'm opening D2NC from within Mach 3 and selecting my .dxf file.  I select the origin then click the Offset button.  I'm doing an internal hole so I click on the circle in the drawing section, select In/Right, input the tool diameter and click Offset.  So far good.  Next I click on the Path button, again select the circle in the drawing section, and click Contour.  The Contour screen appears and I select Local Shape and then None.  I select the circle in the drawing section then press the Move Current Selection to Local Shape button.  When I do this the Close, Add Only and Add and Close buttons at the bottom of the screen disappear.  I've moved the cursor around to see if the function is still available.  No luck.  My questions are:

Is it a D2NC issue?

Is it a Mach 3 issue?

Is it me?

I'd like to get my machine running but these hardware and software problems are keeping me from doing so.

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

Have you tried running D2NC outside of Mach3 on the same computer?

Nice work on the Ultron adapter! I never heard of that system. I will look forward to hear how it works out.

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Have you tried running D2NC outside of Mach3 on the same computer?
> 
> Nice work on the Ultron adapter! I never heard of that system. I will look forward to hear how it works out.
> 
> Jay



Just solved the D2NC problem.  It was a screen resolution problem.  Changed the text size to medium from large and dropped the resolution one setting below max.  Now I can play with Mach 3!

I picked up the Ultron system for a song from a local machinist that didn't want to spend the time and money to set it up.  Parts from the manufacturer are not cheap.  This system is made for a Bridgeport style mill so I had to make the plate and riser to adapt it.


----------



## TomS

I noticed a growing oil puddle under my mill so I decided to find the source.  Checking all of my one-shot lube fittings everything seemed good, no leaks.  I pumped up the system and it became evident that there was an excessive amount of oil flowing out of the ball nuts.  So what to do?  I looked on-line at Bijur restrictors.  Not wanting to wait or pay the steep price I decided to make my own.  I had a piece of 3/8" round aluminum in my scrap bin that would work.  I turned the OD to .175" which is a snug slip fit in 1/4" Tygon tubing.  Then I drilled a 1/16" hole 1/4" deep then followed with a 1/32" drill another 1/8".  Parted the piece off at 3/8" long.  My drill chucks won't hold a drill smaller than 1/32" so that's how I ended up using that size.  No high tech engineering analysis necessary.  Put the restrictors in the X, Y and Z axis feed lines and reconnected everything.  Pumped up the lube system and noticed a significant reduction in excess oil running out of the ball nuts.  This mod should at least make less of an oil mess and force more oil to the ways instead of the floor.

Here's a picture of two restrictors.  The Z is already installed.


----------



## TomS

Been playing with Mach 3 and learning how and why it works the way it does.  All good stuff and enjoying the learning experience.  What I don't understand is I set the Distance Mode and IJ Mode to Absolute and do the same in D2NC.  Mach 3 starts OK and randomly the Normal/Abnormal Condition button starts blinking.  I can correct this by manually changing the IJ Mode setting but am curious why this is happening.  Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Tom S


----------



## TomS

As time allows I've been working on setting up my home switches.  It has been a bit frustrating because I am not able to zero the machine coordinate DRO and lock in the machine home position.  I've got the X, Y and Z axis home switches enabled and the limit switches disabled on the Input Signals
screen (also tried it with the limits enabled).  On the Motor Limit/Home screen X axis Soft Max is 20 and Soft Min is 0, the Y axis Soft Max is 7 and Soft Min is 0, and on the Z axis the Soft Max is 0 and the Soft Min is -15.  Slow zone for the three axis is 1.00 and Auto Zero is checked for each axis.  Each axis is jogged onto their respective home switch until the M1, M2 and M3 home switch indicator lights up.  When I press the Ref All Home button the machine blasts right through the home switch and keeps on going.

I've spent a lot of time searching the internet on how to set the home position for each axis and have found an overwhelming amount of information on the subject.  After several hours of experimenting I haven't been able to successfully lock in the home settings home my machine.  I have to believe I'm missing a critical step but don't know what it is.  I could forget about using home switches but my goal is to learn as much as I can about Mach 3 so that when future problems come up I'll be able diagnose them.  Not there yet. 

Thanks in advance for your help.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> As time allows I've been working on setting up my home switches.  It has been a bit frustrating because I am not able to zero the machine coordinate DRO and lock in the machine home position.  I've got the X, Y and Z axis home switches enabled and the limit switches disabled on the Input Signals
> screen (also tried it with the limits enabled).  On the Motor Limit/Home screen X axis Soft Max is 20 and Soft Min is 0, the Y axis Soft Max is 7 and Soft Min is 0, and on the Z axis the Soft Max is 0 and the Soft Min is -15.  Slow zone for the three axis is 1.00 and Auto Zero is checked for each axis.  Each axis is jogged onto their respective home switch until the M1, M2 and M3 home switch indicator lights up.  When I press the Ref All Home button the machine blasts right through the home switch and keeps on going.
> 
> I've spent a lot of time searching the internet on how to set the home position for each axis and have found an overwhelming amount of information on the subject.  After several hours of experimenting I haven't been able to successfully lock in the home settings home my machine.  I have to believe I'm missing a critical step but don't know what it is.  I could forget about using home switches but my goal is to learn as much as I can about Mach 3 so that when future problems come up I'll be able diagnose them.  Not there yet.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> 
> Tom S



Not sure about your D2NC issue. I have the program and have used it in the past with no issues but do not use it now.

I don't recall how you have your home/limits setup but here are screen shots of my settings. I use a single switch for each axis for home and limits. My home position is left rear.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Not sure about your D2NC issue. I have the program and have used it in the past with no issues but do not use it now.
> 
> I don't recall how you have your home/limits setup but here are screen shots of my settings. I use a single switch for each axis for home and limits. My home position is left rear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 104624
> View attachment 104625
> View attachment 104626



Turned out my D2NC issue was a screen resolution setting.  Changed the resolution and problem cured.  

My switches are the same as yours; one limit/home switch for each axis.  Looking at the screen shots your ports and pins and home/soft limits are similar to my settings.  I'll have to compare your general logic configuration screen to mine and see what differences there may be.  I'm going to adjust my settings to exactly as yours and see what happens.  If it works for you it should work for me.

If I understand the process correctly, and the settings are right, Mach 3 recognizes each axis home position once the switch is activated when you ref all home or ref each axis on the diagnostics screen.  Have I got this right?  How do you reset the machine coordinate DRO to zero's?  I'm getting this sloooowly!

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> If I understand the process correctly, and the settings are right, Mach 3 recognizes each axis home position once the switch is activated when you ref all home or ref each axis on the diagnostics screen.  Have I got this right?  How do you reset the machine coordinate DRO to zero's?  I'm getting this sloooowly!
> 
> Tom S



Mach3 only recognizes the home position when asked to reference home otherwise it treats the switch as a limit. It will home the Z, then Y Then X one at a time in that order.

In the Home/Limit settings check the auto zero for the Machine coordinates to auto zero on home. 

Mach3 by default does not display the machine coordinates on startup, it displays the current offset coordinates, you have to hit the toggle button to see them.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Mach3 only recognizes the home position when asked to reference home otherwise it treats the switch as a limit. It will home the Z, then Y Then X one at a time in that order.
> 
> In the Home/Limit settings check the auto zero for the Machine coordinates to auto zero on home.
> 
> Mach3 by default does not display the machine coordinates on startup, it displays the current offset coordinates, you have to hit the toggle button to see them.



Thanks for the clarification.  I'll set up my machine like yours and report back.


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> Thanks for the clarification.  I'll set up my machine like yours and report back.



Well that didn't work!  When homing the machine still travels past the switch and keeps going.  If I don't press stop or activate the e-stop the machine will run out of travel and crash.

I set my general logic configuration exactly like yours.  The motor/home screen is just like yours with numbers in the soft max column and zeros in the soft min column.  Auto zero is checked for each axis.  On the input signals screen all of the X, Y and Z ++, --, and home signals are enabled, all assigned to port #1, pin numbers are set like yours and confirmed on the diagnostics screen.  If I check the active low buttons and push the ref all button or the individual axis ref button on the diagnostic screen I get the "requested home switch is active" error message.  

Literally I've read hours of forum threads and it appears I'm executing the homing sequence correctly.  I'm almost at the point where I'm going to disable homing and play with making chips.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> Well that didn't work!  When homing the machine still travels past the switch and keeps going.  If I don't press stop or activate the e-stop the machine will run out of travel and crash.
> 
> I set my general logic configuration exactly like yours.  The motor/home screen is just like yours with numbers in the soft max column and zeros in the soft min column.  Auto zero is checked for each axis.  On the input signals screen all of the X, Y and Z ++, --, and home signals are enabled, all assigned to port #1, pin numbers are set like yours and confirmed on the diagnostics screen.  If I check the active low buttons and push the ref all button or the individual axis ref button on the diagnostic screen I get the "requested home switch is active" error message.
> 
> Literally I've read hours of forum threads and it appears I'm executing the homing sequence correctly.  I'm almost at the point where I'm going to disable homing and play with making chips.
> 
> Tom S



Bummer!

Do the switches trigger on a limit?

Can you post your screen shots of the config and diagnostic screens?


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Bummer!
> 
> Do the switches trigger on a limit?
> 
> Can you post your screen shots of the config and diagnostic screens?



Yes, the switches trigger on limit.  It's safe to run the machine but I'd still like to figure out this homing problem.  

Here's my diagnostics screen.  When I manually trip the limit switches the ++, --, and home indicators light up.





This how I set up the input signals.  Z home settings are the same as Z++ and Z--.  I tried enabling active low but when I pressed the ref all button or the individual axis ref button on the diagnostic screen I get a "requested home switch is active" error message.  I unchecked them and the error message went away. 





On this screen I had the Z soft max set at -15.00 when I tested it this morning.  Trying different settings I changed it to what you see here.





This is my general logic config screen.  Same as yours.


----------



## jbolt

I cant rcall but is there anything in the uc100 config related to home limits?


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> I cant rcall but is there anything in the uc100 config related to home limits?



I reread the UC100 installation manual and did not find any reference to configuring limit or homing switches.  I did find that the I/O monitoring screen has a "home" indicator light.  I'll check to see if it lights up when I home.  If it doesn't then it could be a UC100 problem. 

Tom S


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> I reread the UC100 installation manual and did not find any reference to configuring limit or homing switches.  I did find that the I/O monitoring screen has a "home" indicator light.  I'll check to see if it lights up when I home.  If it doesn't then it could be a UC100 problem.
> 
> Tom S



The homing light on the UC100 screen lights up when the switch is tripped while homing.  Wasn't able to make any more progress today because the UC100 errors are back.  Jeez, will it ever end!


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> The homing light on the UC100 screen lights up when the switch is tripped while homing.  Wasn't able to make any more progress today because the UC100 errors are back.  Jeez, will it ever end!



If I recall you are running the UC100 through a USB hub? If so try taking the UC100 out of the hub and directly to a USB port.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> If I recall you are running the UC100 through a USB hub? If so try taking the UC100 out of the hub and directly to a USB port.



Thanks for the suggestion but I was able to fix it by doing a clean boot of my computer.  Evidently there was a program running in the background that was sucking up memory.  Unfortunately I don't have enough computer savy to figure out what program was causing the problem.

Today was a good day.  I fixed the UC100 problem and did my first CNC machining job.  The mill worked flawlessly except the X and Y motors got very hot.  So hot that you couldn't keep your hands on them longer than an instant.  I think it may be a driver dip switch setting but will need to do more searching and reading before reaching a conclusion.

Here's my first try at CNC machining.  I used a piece from my scrap bin so disregard the turned section at the top of the part.  The drawing was made for a part that is twice as long as the one in the picture so that's why it looks the way it does.  This is not a functional item just some g-code to see if I got the processes right.


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> The mill worked flawlessly except the X and Y motors got very hot. So hot that you couldn't keep your hands on them longer than an instant. I think it may be a driver dip switch setting but will need to do more searching and reading before reaching a conclusion.




Check the idle current settings,  maybe back down the operating current a bit and see what happens.  Sounds like the motors are being driven over current.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Check the idle current settings,  maybe back down the operating current a bit and see what happens.  Sounds like the motors are being driven over current.



Thanks for the tip.  I was thinking along those lines as well.  My motor voltage and current specs are 5.7V and Current 3.5A/phase.  I need to check but the dip switches are supposedly set at off, off, and on for switches 1 thru 3.  According to the chart on the driver these settings are for 4.9A peak and 3.5A RMS.  Switch 4 is off which is the half current setting.  The next lower current setting is 4.2A peak and 3.0A RMS.  I'll try that and see if the motors run cooler.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Test part looks good. Are you running any coolant?

Jay


----------



## wrmiller

Congrats! Looks like you finally got this thing up and running. 

Your efforts have given me further justification to never touch CNC...


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Test part looks good. Are you running any coolant?
> 
> Jay



That part was cut without coolant.  I've got a fog buster on my other mill that I will transfer over.  Before I get too involved I've got to make an enclosure to contain the chips.  Don't want any stray chips getting into the electronics.

Tom


----------



## TomS

wrmiller19 said:


> Congrats! Looks like you finally got this thing up and running.
> 
> Your efforts have given me further justification to never touch CNC...



My goal from the beginning was to learn CNC.  Still have a ways to go.  Have to admit it's been a bigger challenge than I anticipated but with the help I received from forum members I was able to work through the issues.  Special thanks to jbolt, jumps4, Jim Dawson and others for their guidance and support. 

This thread isn't done by any means.  I'm still a rookie.

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

I do like the no-fog system I made but I did learn this weekend that it is not sufficient for 5052 aluminum at high speed. It was impressive to watch a 1/4" carbide end mill at 6k load up and melt a path through some 1/8" 5052 sheet at 17 in/min. Flood coolant worked much better.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> I do like the no-fog system I made but I did learn this weekend that it is not sufficient for 5052 aluminum at high speed. It was impressive to watch a 1/4" carbide end mill at 6k load up and melt a path through some 1/8" 5052 sheet at 17 in/min. Flood coolant worked much better.



I'll keep flood coolant in mind when I'm building the enclosure.  So you were plowing instead of cutting? Lol


----------



## coolidge

For CNC I vote flood coolant and not some dribble pressure but a good proper blast to knock the chips out of the way. Remember to plumb a hose with a nozzle for machine clean up, that's one really nice thing about flood coolant you can hose down the entire machine which makes quick work of cleanup. Another is not having to worry about anything rusting. About the only place I had rust issues was under the Kurt vice.


----------



## coolidge

jbolt said:


> I do like the no-fog system I made but I did learn this weekend that it is not sufficient for 5052 aluminum at high speed. It was impressive to watch a 1/4" carbide end mill at 6k load up and melt a path through some 1/8" 5052 sheet at 17 in/min. Flood coolant worked much better.



I was once milling a mold in some wood on my cnc mill...with the end mill rotating backwards, it was smoking and making a mess and I was cussing thinking I had bought a bad end mill...DOH!


----------



## jbolt

It was more like friction milling. A cocept that never took off. 

I like the mist for drilling and light work so I dont have to keep the enclosure closed.


----------



## jbolt

Did you figure out the motor heating issue?

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Did you figure out the motor heating issue?
> 
> Jay



Not yet.  Wife and I have been out of town for the last two weeks.  Will get to it today.  

I thought about this a lot the last two weeks and it hit me that my power supplies are running on 220V.  Could it be the driver dip switches are set for 110v thus drawing twice the necessary current?  Seems to me I read in jumps4 build he had the same problem with the motors drawing way too much current.  

Been watching your router build.  The finished product looks nice.  Hope you figure out the electronics soon so you make make chips.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

Changed the dip switch settings to the next lower amp rating and the X and Y axis motors are still overheating.  Set them two amp ratings lower and motors still running extremely hot; so hot you can't hold your hand on the motor for more than a second or two.  The power supply rated output is 60VDC at 5.85A.  I checked them with a voltmeter and both were 61.4VDC without the motors turning and 69.6VDC when running g-code.  These power supplies have an adjustable voltage setting so I turned them down as low as they would go.  The X axis PS is putting out 63.6VDC and the Y axis 61.8VDC.  The voltage didn't change between static mode and run mode.  Not sure if my initial readings were bad or the readings after the voltage adjustment are bad. Could the high voltage situation be the cause of the motor heating problem?  As it is now I'm reluctant to run g-code for more than 45 minutes.

BTW - I cut a 2" nominal hole is some 3/8" thick aluminum plate and am extremely pleased that the is less than .001" out of round.  Hole size was a bit off at 2.005" but I think I can fix it by recalibrating the steps/per.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

Take a look at the idle current setting on the drives.  It sounds like they are not switching down to idle current.  That is way to hot, something is not right.  The high voltage may be the cause, but the drives should limit the current.

Measure the end mill you are using.  If it is oversize 0.0025, your hole would be oversize by 0.005.  Most end mills are not exactly on size.  You are correct in that you may need to fine tune the calibration.


----------



## jbolt

I believe your X & Y motors are Wantai 85BYGH450C-012. The website says the operation range is -20c to 50c (-4f to 122f) with a max temperature rise of 80c ambient. If I read that correctly the max temp is 130c (266f) which I understand is the max temp rating for the wire insulation.

Have you measured the heat of the motors? My X & Y motors run between 100f and 115f.

What is switch SW4 on the driver set to, on or off? 

Jay


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Take a look at the idle current setting on the drives.  It sounds like they are not switching down to idle current.  That is way to hot, something is not right.  The high voltage may be the cause, but the drives should limit the current.
> 
> Measure the end mill you are using.  If it is oversize 0.0025, your hole would be oversize by 0.005.  Most end mills are not exactly on size.  You are correct in that you may need to fine tune the calibration.



Jim - I've attached the driver manual and included my motor and driver specs for reference.  When you say the "idle current" setting is that the same as the "standstill current" setting referenced in the manual?  Currently my switch 4 is set to half of the selected dynamic current.

*Stepper Motor*

*Technical Specifications*

*Part No: WT85STH151-3004B dual shaft 85BYGH450C-012B*

*Frame Size: NEMA34*

*Step Angle: 1.8 degree*

*Voltage: 5.7V*

*Current: 3.5A/phase*

*Resistance: 1.9 Ohm/phase*

*Inductance: 22 mH/phase*

*Holding torque: 11.3N.m/1600oz-in*

*Rotor inertia: 3600g-cm2*

*Number of wire leads: 4*

*Weight: 5 kgs*

*Length: 151mm*


*Note: Nema 34 stepper motor with 1600 oz-in holding torque on single shaft, front shaft length is 37mm with 25mm flats length, the diameter for motor shaft is 14mm.*


*RED = A+*

*GREEN = A-*

*YELLOW = B+*

*BLUE = B-*


*Stepper Motor Driver*

*DQ860MA*

*Introduction*

*The DQ860MA is an economical microstepping drive based on patented technology of Wantai Motor.  It is suitable for driving 2-phase & 4-phase hybrid stepping motors.  By using the advanced bipolar constant-current shopping technique, it can output more speed and torque from the same motor compared with traditional drivers, such as L/R drivers.  It’s 3-state current control technology allows coil currents to be well controlled and with relatively small current ripple, therefore less motor heating is achieved.*

*Features*

◆*Low cost and good high-speed torque*

*◆14 selectable resolutions*

*◆Supply voltage up to +80VD*

*◆Suitable for-2-phase and 4-phase motors*

*◆Output current up to 7.8A, 5.86A rated current, 256 Microstep.*

*◆Dip switch current setting 8 different values*

*◆Optically isolated input signals*

*◆Pulse frequency up to 200 KHz*

*◆Automatic idle-current reduction*

*◆Small size (107*97*48), Weight: 0.6KG*

I'll measure my cutter but you raised a good point.  It could also be my asian set screw holder has some runout.  I'll also try my collet and see what happens.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> Jim - I've attached the driver manual and included my motor and driver specs for reference. When you say the "idle current" setting is that the same as the "standstill current" setting referenced in the manual? Currently my switch 4 is set to half of the selected dynamic current.



Yes, Idle current = standstill current.  In the manual is also a reference to:   _4) Semi-flow function: Semi-flow function is that there is not step pulse after 200 ms, the driver output current automatically reduced to 40% of rated output current, which is used to prevent motor heat.  _I'm not exactly sure how this is implemented, or if it it overridden by SW4  The manual is a bit vague on this subject.

I have two of almost the same setup on the bench right now, same drives, but 1200 oz/inch, 5.6 amp motors. They're getting ready to drive Alloy's Shizouka tool changer and variable speed control.  I'll pull one of the drives out of the panel tomorrow and see how it reacts. We are a couple weeks away from firing it up, and I need to test the new tool changer gearbox on the bench anyway.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Yes, Idle current = standstill current.  In the manual is also a reference to:   _4) Semi-flow function: Semi-flow function is that there is not step pulse after 200 ms, the driver output current automatically reduced to 40% of rated output current, which is used to prevent motor heat.  _I'm not exactly sure how this is implemented, or if it it overridden by SW4  The manual is a bit vague on this subject.
> 
> I have two of almost the same setup on the bench right now, same drives, but 1200 oz/inch, 5.6 amp motors. They're getting ready to drive Alloy's Shizouka tool changer and variable speed control.  I'll pull one of the drives out of the panel tomorrow and see how it reacts. We are a couple weeks away from firing it up, and I need to test the new tool changer gearbox on the bench anyway.



Thanks Jim.  I'm going to change switch 4 to "ON" (full current) and see what happens.  

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

OK, I ran some tests on the bench.

Equipment:
Wantai WT86STH118-6004B 1200 oz/in stepper motor 5.6 amp
Wantai DQ860MA Drive
60 Volt Power Supply
Stepper Speed Controller
3M Infrared thermometer

Conditions:
Motor clamped to a wood bench with a C-clamp, 3 sides exposed to still air
800 Step / Rev,  SW 5 OFF, SW 6,7,8 ON
5.6 Amp, SW1,2,3 OFF
SW4 OFF
Power Supply voltage = 60.0

I took a temperature reading every 5 minutes during the test
Ambient temperature at START of test = 77 F
Starting temperature of motor case = 88 F
The first 10 minutes was Power ON, Motor OFF to test standstill temperature rise.
At 10 minutes I turned the Motor ON, about 1 REV/Sec (equivalent to 12 IPM on a 0.200 pitch leadscrew)
Maximum temperature was at 55 minutes (45 minutes running time) = 161 F
The last 15 minutes (55-70) was power ON, Motor OFF to test standstill temperature again.
Ambient temperature at END of test = 80 F

As you can see, the  temperature rise was pretty constant as long as the motor was running.  I don't know what the max safe operating temperature of the motor is.  The high temperature is due to running current, not standstill current.






The only suggestion that I have is to turn down the current to the minimum that will run the machine.

.
.


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> Thanks Jim.  I'm going to change switch 4 to "ON" (full current) and see what happens.
> 
> Tom S



Well, that didn't work.  The motors got hot without much movement.  Did some web surfing on stepper motors running hot.   Found lots of comments but no real answer on how to address it.  Comments included adding cooling fans to installing heat sinks.  I'm more interested in fixing the root cause.  What I found interesting is some commentors say 100 to 110C is considered normal.  That's 212F to about 235F!  Harbor Freight has a non-contact infrared thermometer for $12.  Might give that a try to determine how hot my motors are actually running.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

TomS said:


> Might give that a try to determine how hot my motors are actually running.



See my post above ^^^^


----------



## TomS

Just posted then I saw your post.  Were you able to hold your hand on the motor longer than a few seconds?  I've read that 140F is the maximum pain threshold.  If this is true then my motors may be running about the same temperature as yours.


Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

Towards the end of the test I really didn't want to touch it, pretty hot.


----------



## TomS

JimDawson said:


> Towards the end of the test I really didn't want to touch it, pretty hot.



Maybe I don't have a problem.  I'm off to Harbor Freight in the morning to buy the thermometer.  Thanks for your help.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> I believe your X & Y motors are Wantai 85BYGH450C-012. The website says the operation range is -20c to 50c (-4f to 122f) with a max temperature rise of 80c ambient. If I read that correctly the max temp is 130c (266f) which I understand is the max temp rating for the wire insulation.
> 
> Have you measured the heat of the motors? My X & Y motors run between 100f and 115f.
> 
> What is switch SW4 on the driver set to, on or off?
> 
> Jay



Jay - sorry for not responding sooner.  I just saw your post.   I bought an infrared heat gun this morning.  Wouldn't you know it Harbor Freight was out of stock on the $12.00 gun so I had to buy the $50.00 one.  Just got done running g-code for a couple of hours and the max temp was 135 deg F.  Keep in mind it's over 100F ambient here in the north state.  I was guessing anything below 175F would be OK.

Switch 4:  OFF = half current and ON = full current.  I switched mine to full current and the motors immediately got hot at idle so I switched it back.

I'll post a few pictures of the parts I'm making later today.  Thanks again for your help.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> Jay - sorry for not responding sooner.  I just saw your post.   I bought an infrared heat gun this morning.  Wouldn't you know it Harbor Freight was out of stock on the $12.00 gun so I had to buy the $50.00 one.  Just got done running g-code for a couple of hours and the max temp was 135 deg F.  Keep in mind it's over 100F ambient here in the north state.  I was guessing anything below 175F would be OK.
> 
> Switch 4:  OFF = half current and ON = full current.  I switched mine to full current and the motors immediately got hot at idle so I switched it back.
> 
> I'll post a few pictures of the parts I'm making later today.  Thanks again for your help.
> 
> Tom S



 Sounds like you are good to go. 

Won't be long now before you want more spindle speed


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Sounds like you are good to go.
> 
> Won't be long now before you want more spindle speed



I've got the dip switches set at three amp levels below my starting point.  Don't think this will be a problem unless I take deep cuts and ramp up the feed rate.  

Spindle speed is already on my list as are an enclosure to keep chips and coolant contained and a new milling vice so I don't have to share it with my manual mill.  I'm sure the wish list will grow over time.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

You can never have enough tooling....

I have four vises, Three 4" vises and a 5". Two of the 4" vises are the CNC type from Shars. I use these the most. The only drawback is they are slightly different heights by about 0.003". Not a problem with soft jaws, only when using parallels. I need to have the bases ground but have yet to find someone local with a surface grinder I could use.

Tooling plates are also good to have. I made a couple from 1/2 alum plate. 

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> You can never have enough tooling....
> 
> I have four vises, Three 4" vises and a 5". Two of the 4" vises are the CNC type from Shars. I use these the most. The only drawback is they are slightly different heights by about 0.003". Not a problem with soft jaws, only when using parallels. I need to have the bases ground but have yet to find someone local with a surface grinder I could use.
> 
> Tooling plates are also good to have. I made a couple from 1/2 alum plate.
> 
> Jay



As I learn more about CNC I'm sure my list will grow.  Enclosure first then a vice, for sure.  

Here's a blurry picture of a harness bar side plate I'm making for my Can Am Commander.  The assembly takes two plates, four roll bar clamps, and one cross tube.  The side plate still needs the outside contoured.  When I get that done I'll post another picture. 

Tom S


----------



## TomS

Finally was able to get back in the shop yesterday.  After flailing along for a couple of hours I was able to figure out D2NC and profile the perimeter on the harness bar side plates.

First, I made a fixture which was not that difficult.  When I ran D2NC, input the offset data, and selected offset the screen showed a radius on the 90 degree corners.  Played around with it for a long while and went back to the house and watched the videos by jumps4.  After a couple of hours, and not finding an answer, I gave up and decided I'd live with the radiused corners.  Well, wouldn't you know it, when I ran the g-code it cut the corners square.  The screen shot must be the way D2NC illustrates the tool path for a 90 degree corner.  Anyway I learned something, which is a good thing.

I also figured out that I can save the g-code file for the roughing passes and finishing pass.  This saved me from closing the g-code file and re-entering the set up info into D2NC for each part.  Not to mention that in hindsight I should have machined the 1-1/2" hole and 1/4" bolt holes first, then used the fixture to machine the cutouts, chamfers, and the perimeter.  I could have machined the part in two setups rather than four.  Although I've been in and around machining for over 40 years my experience has been strictly manual machining.  I've learned that CNC requires a different thought process.  Having fun though.

Tom S

Here's a picture of the fixture.  Could have held it in the vise but it was setup on my manual mill and I didn't want to spend the time to move it.



Part set up and ready to profile the perimeter.



Finished product.  Next steps are bead blasting and painting.


----------



## TomS

Now that I've run a few CNC jobs I have come to the conclusion that I need to better contain the chips.  Seems that I'm spending as much time cleaning up as I'm machining.  So I've started on making an enclosure for my mill.  I'm building it based on other enclosures I've seen on the web using the features I like best.  The first order of business is to build a cover for the X and Y axis motors.   While I would have liked to make the enclosure with a minimum of seams I'm limited to bending pieces 36" wide with my HF brake.  Sheet metal is 24 gauge and will be attached with blind rivets and sealer at all joints.  The picture below show my slow progress. 

Tom S

Still need to make a cover for the Y axis motor.


----------



## jumps4

Everything Looks good Tom 
your chamfers look nice, I haven't tried that yet.
 You can get quite a pile of chips in a very short time...
Steve


----------



## TomS

jumps4 said:


> Everything Looks good Tom
> your chamfers look nice, I haven't tried that yet.
> You can get quite a pile of chips in a very short time...
> Steve



Thanks Steve.  Didn't realize it but CNC machining does generate lots of chips in a very short period of time.  Add in the coolant factor and before you know it you've got a big mess to clean up.

Tom S


----------



## TomS

Finally got the base portion of the enclosure nearly finished.  This thing is huge at 43" wide by 88" long.  I wanted to have enough room to clean around the mill, especially in the back, and with direct drive motors it ended up being bigger than I anticipated.  

I used sealant at all the joints when assembling the panels but still need to go back and fill in a few voids.  I used 1/8" aluminum blind rivets to hold everything together.





I need to reroute the X and Y axis motor leads, limit switch wiring and lube oil feed to the distribution manifold.  Next step is to build the wall panels and the doors. 





Tom S


----------



## bvd1940

looks goods Tom, I have had some road blocks crop up on my conversion but hope to get back on track soon.
Bill


----------



## TomS

bvd1940 said:


> looks goods Tom, I have had some road blocks crop up on my conversion but hope to get back on track soon.
> Bill



Thanks Bill.  Don't give up just keep plugging away.  It will get done.  If your road blocks are related to the conversion let the forum know.  We can help.

Been working on this enclosure for a few weeks now and still not done.  I have three of the panels done and five to go plus two doors.  Then I need to fasten everything together to keep it from falling apart.  Between my consulting business travel and my wife's insistence on traveling in the RV I haven't been able to put in the time I'd like.  I guess that's why they call it a hobby.

Tom S


----------



## bvd1940

TomS said:


> Thanks Bill.  Don't give up just keep plugging away.  It will get done.  If your road blocks are related to the conversion let the forum know.  We can help.
> 
> Been working on this enclosure for a few weeks now and still not done.  I have three of the panels done and five to go plus two doors.  Then I need to fasten everything together to keep it from falling apart.  Between my consulting business travel and my wife's insistence on traveling in the RV I haven't been able to put in the time I'd like.  I guess that's why they call it a hobby.
> 
> Tom S


No its not related to the conversion BUT it is related to our family, just to many things going on maybe next week
Oh well the beat goes on & on & on


----------



## TomS

Finished up the enclosure wall panels today.  Sorry but no pictures for a few days while I'm out of town.  The next order of business is to make the doors.  The opening is about 40" wide and 34" tall so each door will be about 24" by 36" allowing for overlap.  I plan to mount a light weight sliding door track across the opening and hang the doors with door trolleys.  What I need some input on is the material for the doors.  Should I use Lexan, Plexiglass, tempered glass, or ???  Obviously the doors will be clear but I'm not sure what material is best suited for a flood coolant environment with chips beating on it.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Tom S


----------



## Dan_S

TomS said:


> Should I use Lexan, Plexiglass, tempered glass, or ???



For sure not glass, if you break an end mill and it goes flying, the glass will just shatter. It's costs more, but if it was me I'd go with Lexan, as its much stronger than plexi glass.


----------



## JimDawson

:+1:  Lexan


----------



## Eddyde

I would rule out plexiglass (acrylic) as it scratches very easily and can shatter if hit hard enough.
Lexan is virtually unbreakable, doesn't scratch as easily as plexi but will degrade if exposed to a lot of flying chips. There is a higher grade called Lexan MR-10  that has a mar resistant coating, although, it's very expensive.
Tempered Glass is the most scratch proof and is very break resistant and if it does, it shatters into tiny pieces. It would be possible to get injured if you were close to it if it shattered.
I would consider making the doors out of sheet aluminum and have viewing windows in them that are a standard size of a common door lite, that way you can get either TG or even Lexan pre cut to size. You could even do a inner window of Tempered Glass and an outer one of Lexan (that's the way many bullet proof windows are constructed) and have the best of both.


----------



## TomS

Thanks guys.  I can buy Lexan sheet at the local big box store in the size I need.  What about thickness?  They have .093", .125" and .250".  The .093" is in stock.  The other thicknesses have to be ordered.

Tom S


----------



## JimDawson

I would go with the .250.  Google ''plastics redding ca'' you might find much better pricing than the big box store.  Many times your local glass shop will have Lexan window panes also.


----------



## jbolt

Be sure to check that the coolant you plan on using is compatible with polycarbonate. The coolant I prefer (Rustlick ws-5050) will attack polycarbonate and make it brittle and difficult to clean.


----------



## TomS

Today I got the panels installed.  Still have cleanup to do along with rerouting wiring and lube oil supply lines, and fab up coolant drains.  I'll order the door material in the next couple of days.

Tom S


----------



## jbolt

Looking good Tom!

I am so envious of the size of your shop!!!

Jay


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Looking good Tom!
> 
> I am so envious of the size of your shop!!!
> 
> Jay



Thanks.  As they say the bigger the shop the more junk you collect.  I've got lot's of junk!

The enclosure is huge.  It's 43" deep and 88" long.  Now I have to move my mill drill, lathe and work benches so I have room around the mill.  It never ends!

Tom S.


----------



## techbuilder

Hey Tom,
Great build I really enjoyed reading the thread!
I know this is a little old but I had a couple of quick questions.

Did you end up going with the 1600oz steppers for the x,y and z or did you use the 4200oz stepper for the z?
Also what are your max ipm on your cnc mill?


----------



## TomS

techbuilder said:


> Hey Tom,
> Great build I really enjoyed reading the thread!
> I know this is a little old but I had a couple of quick questions.
> 
> Did you end up going with the 1600oz steppers for the x,y and z or did you use the 4200oz stepper for the z?
> Also what are your max ipm on your cnc mill?



Thanks.  Glad you enjoyed it.  I used 1600 oz in on X and Y and 4200 oz in on Z.  

Actually I don't remember where they are set.  I recently installed double ball nuts on all axis' and I played around with the settings.  I think I'm running X and Y at 100 ipm and the Z about 50 ipm.  I'll check and get back to you.  I did have X and Y up to 200 ipm but didn't want to run jobs at that speed.  Keep in mind you have to have enough spindle rpm to use these kinds of feeds.  Most of the jobs I run are under 50 ipm. 

Tom S.


----------



## techbuilder

TomS said:


> Thanks.  Glad you enjoyed it.  I used 1600 oz in on X and Y and 4200 oz in on Z.
> 
> Actually I don't remember where they are set.  I recently installed double ball nuts on all axis' and I played around with the settings.  I think I'm running X and Y at 100 ipm and the Z about 50 ipm.  I'll check and get back to you.  I did have X and Y up to 200 ipm but didn't want to run jobs at that speed.  Keep in mind you have to have enough spindle rpm to use these kinds of feeds.  Most of the jobs I run are under 50 ipm.
> 
> Tom S.


Wow thank you for the quick response Tom!

Unfortunately in my case due to the stepper controllers I already have that are pricey they max out at
8amps peak so I was looking at stepper motor for the z-axis with that amp range but slightly lower and I came up with the next step down 3250oz steppers.
Do you think that is to far under powered and will need a pully?


----------



## TomS

techbuilder said:


> Wow thank you for the quick response Tom!
> 
> Unfortunately in my case due to the stepper controllers I already have that are pricey they max out at
> 8amps peak so I was looking at stepper motor for the z-axis with that amp range but slightly lower and I came up with the next step down 3250oz steppers.
> Do you think that is to far under powered and will need a pully?



I'm using a DQ2722 driver/power supply that is rated at 8.0A peak and 7.0A rated current.  The 4200 oz in motor is rated 8.0A/phase but you will probably never get there unless you intend to run extremely heavy material removal rates.  Another consideration is that the X and Y axis do most of the work while the majority of the Z axis load is raising and lowering the head.  Another way of saying it you won't be loading the Z axis like you would the X or Y axis.  

I would go with the 4200.  It moves the head up like it isn't there.

Tom S.


----------



## techbuilder

TomS said:


> I'm using a DQ2722 driver/power supply that is rated at 8.0A peak and 7.0A rated current.  The 4200 oz in motor is rated 8.0A/phase but you will probably never get there unless you intend to run extremely heavy material removal rates.  Another consideration is that the X and Y axis do most of the work while the majority of the Z axis load is raising and lowering the head.  Another way of saying it you won't be loading the Z axis like you would the X or Y axis.
> 
> I would go with the 4200.  It moves the head up like it isn't there.
> 
> Tom S.



Sweet! Thanks Tom


----------



## TomS

techbuilder said:


> Sweet! Thanks Tom



If you haven't already done so you might take a look at the CNC builds by jumps4 and jbolt.  My conversion is based on their builds.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> Thanks.  Glad you enjoyed it.  I used 1600 oz in on X and Y and 4200 oz in on Z.
> 
> Actually I don't remember where they are set.  I recently installed double ball nuts on all axis' and I played around with the settings.  I think I'm running X and Y at 100 ipm and the Z about 50 ipm.  I'll check and get back to you.  I did have X and Y up to 200 ipm but didn't want to run jobs at that speed.  Keep in mind you have to have enough spindle rpm to use these kinds of feeds.  Most of the jobs I run are under 50 ipm.
> 
> Tom S.



As promised here are my motor settings.

Tom S.


----------



## techbuilder

TomS said:


> If you haven't already done so you might take a look at the CNC builds by jumps4 and jbolt.  My conversion is based on their builds.
> 
> Tom S.



No actually I haven't, thank you Tom and I really appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions and provide screen shots as well.

I've included the links down below to anyone else who is curious on their threads who stumbles upon your thread on

*Jbolt*
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm932-cnc-build.21442/

*Jumps4*
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/rung-fu-clone-rf-45-zx45-cnc-conversion.8187/


----------



## TomS

techbuilder said:


> No actually I haven't, thank you Tom and I really appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions and provide screen shots as well.
> 
> I've included the links down below to anyone else who is curious on their threads who stumbles upon your thread on
> 
> *Jbolt*
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm932-cnc-build.21442/
> 
> *Jumps4*
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/rung-fu-clone-rf-45-zx45-cnc-conversion.8187/



Thanks for posting the links.  As you work through your build please post pictures.  Everyone on this site will be interested in what you are doing.  And of course if you have questions do not hesitate to ask.  

Tom S.


----------



## techbuilder

TomS said:


> Thanks for posting the links.  As you work through your build please post pictures.  Everyone on this site will be interested in what you are doing.  And of course if you have questions do not hesitate to ask.
> 
> Tom S.



Ohh I definitely will!


----------



## techbuilder

Hey Tom,

Another quick question before I start on my build.
The drawings you used from Jumps4, did you have to make any changes to use on your mill or was it pretty much spot on?


----------



## TomS

techbuilder said:


> Hey Tom,
> 
> Another quick question before I start on my build.
> The drawings you used from Jumps4, did you have to make any changes to use on your mill or was it pretty much spot on?



The drawings from jumps4 were not used verbatim, just for ideas when I built mine.  I double checked the X and Y motor mount bolt pattern to my mill.  I found, through trial and error, that the holes on the ends of the table and on the front of the base were drilled and tapped randomly.  My Z motor mount is significantly different than jumps4 so his drawings weren't applicable.  Hope this helps.

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

jumps4 has a mill from a different manufacturer so it will be different. The mounting holes for the factory acme screw bearing blocks are hand fitted so the bolt patterns are not exactly the same from machine to machine.


----------



## TomS

This is the Chinese version of hand fitting. LOL





BTW - Jumps4 used a Wholesale Tool Milling machine.  As jbolt said the acme screw bearing blocks are hand fitted at the factory.  It's just that sometimes the hand fitting isn't what we would like it to be.

Tom S.


----------



## techbuilder

Ohh jeez haha

I just ordered the 1600oz stepper motors and the 60w power supply for them, Still waiting on a little more cash for the 4200oz and a power supply for it.

My temporary goal is to machine up some motor mounts for the x and the y and use the stock acme threads to machine some parts (the z axis motor mount) while manually operating the Z, did this at the old machine shop I worked at with an old time NC machine. 

We shall see if the motors have enough oompf to turn the axis with an acme lead screw.


----------



## TomS

techbuilder said:


> Ohh jeez haha
> 
> I just ordered the 1600oz stepper motors and the 60w power supply for them, Still waiting on a little more cash for the 4200oz and a power supply for it.
> 
> My temporary goal is to machine up some motor mounts for the x and the y and use the stock acme threads to machine some parts (the z axis motor mount) while manually operating the Z, did this at the old machine shop I worked at with an old time NC machine.
> 
> We shall see if the motors have enough oompf to turn the axis with an acme lead screw.



What brand motors and power supplies did you get?  Did you buy a kit?  Your approach is logical and should work.  Good luck!

BTW - I'm gathering materials for a belt drive conversion.  I'll post pictures here so others can see what I'm doing.

Tom S.


----------



## techbuilder

I bought some hong kong billy bobs from eBay individually

I bought these steppers 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321594224727?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

and these power supplies 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231617048103?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Oooo nice! I look forward to seeing it.


----------



## jbolt

techbuilder said:


> I bought some hong kong billy bobs from eBay individually
> 
> I bought these steppers
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321594224727?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> and these power supplies
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/231617048103?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> Oooo nice! I look forward to seeing it.



What are you using for drivers?


----------



## TomS

techbuilder said:


> I bought some hong kong billy bobs from eBay individually
> 
> I bought these steppers
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321594224727?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> and these power supplies
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/231617048103?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> Oooo nice! I look forward to seeing it.



Same motors and drivers I have. They've worked flawlessly for me.

A suggestion and please don't take this the wrong way.  You should start your own thread so you can track your build in one place and others can see your progress from the beginning up to it's conclusion.  I and others are more than willing to help but it may get confusing if we respond to your build in my thread.  And you won't get the exposure you need when asking for input.  Again, I'm trying to be helpful.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

I asked a few questions in another thread about adding a 3 phase motor and VFD to my PM-932 mill.  Thanks to jbolt and mksj who were very helpful in answering my questions and providing valuable information.  My plan is to do all of the mechanical work first then tackle the electrical and electronics last.  I'm going with a Hitachi WJ VFD.  The pulley ratio will be 2.5:1 which gets me to 9000 spindle rpm at 120 Hz.  I will be replacing the spindle bearings with AC bearings.  If 9000 poses a problem I can always reduce the large pulley diameter later.  So off I went and started gathering materials.  

More pictures and loads of questions to follow.

Tom S.


This is the motor mksj pointed out to me on eBay.  It's a new in the box Marathon Black Max 2HP 3 phase inverter duty.  Was able to snag it for $104 plus shipping.




Here's the material for the pulleys and one motor support rail.  The second motor support rail was in the mill when I snapped these pictures.  The piece in the lower left is my tool changer mount.  Still have some work left to do on it.



It's not a good picture but this is the second motor support rail being machined.


----------



## jbolt

Are you going to do a low range pulley?


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Are you going to do a low range pulley?



Yes.  The large pulley is 5" diameter and the small pulley is 2".  At 30 Hz that gets me to 360 RPM.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

Made some progress on my belt drive conversion.  Finished the motor adapter plate, the tool changer mount, and the side rails.  Today I started machining on the motor and spindle pulley's.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

Made some more progress today.  I finished up the spline drive shaft modifications but not without a bit of trouble.  Somewhere I read that most of the asian mill drills don't have hardened gears.  Well I have one of the few mills that don't fall into that category.  The gear on my shaft must have been in the Rc55+ range.  With the hardness and interrupted cut I went through a few carbide inserts.  I tried I22, C5 and C1 grades.  C1 worked the best but still didn't last more than three passes.  Once I got below the tooth root it machined fine.  Anyway I got er done.

Tom S.

I opted to go with a snap ring to retain the spindle pulley rather than a nut.  I'm going to bore the pulley for a .001" interference fit and with the drive key it's not going anywhere.  I'll trim the top to length after the pulley is done.



The grooves next to the right hand snap ring and the one left of it are what's left of the undercuts on each side of the gear and hub.  Next up is to order the bearings.  These are going to be a little pricey (about $50 each) because I need bearings with non-contact seals.  I can find bearings with contact seals for less than $10 each.  My goal is to get to 9000 rpm but bearings with contact seals are limited to 7000 rpm.  Non-contact seals are rated to 12000 rpm.  Bearings are good to 15000.  Seals are the limiting factor.


----------



## jbolt

My gear was hard but I got through it with no trouble. I have one of * these* insert holders for doing interrupted cuts. It uses the odd corners of 80deg inserts so I keep my worn out or chipped inserts for jobs like that.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> My gear was hard but I got through it with no trouble. I have one of * these* insert holders for doing interrupted cuts. It uses the odd corners of 80deg inserts so I keep my worn out or chipped inserts for jobs like that.



Wish I had one of those yesterday.  My tool holders take TNMG inserts.  Usually they work fine on any material I throw at them.  

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

More work completed on the belt drive conversion today.  Got the bearings for the spindle splined sleeve.  The guy at the local bearing house recommended I go with double shielded bearings instead of the non-contact sealed bearings.  If they sling the grease out at high rpm I'm not going to be happy.  We'll see.

Tom S.

Finished the motor and spindle pulleys.



Mocked up the parts on the mill to make sure everything fit before drilling and tapping the bolt holes for the motor plate and tool changer riser.  Sure enough the sides of the gear head top cover aren't square to the top.  Not a big deal just had to compensate for it when I laid out the holes.


----------



## TomS

Yesterday I removed the spindle cartridge and disassembled the spindle.  Bearing cups looked OK with just slight discoloration on the rolling surfaces.  No scratches or grooves which was better than I expected.  But what I did find was metal chips packed inside the lower spindle bearing end cap.  This was because my mill didn't come with a lower spindle seal (part 75) as shown in the parts diagram.  Anyone else missing the seal?  For those that haven't checked it's very easy to unthread the end cap.  There's three small dimples in the end cap face where you can get the end of a punch into to exert a small amount of rotational force to unscrew it.  I recommend that you check it out.  It may save you having to change out the bearing.  

Here's a screen shot of the PM-932 manual showing the spindle end cap (part 74) and spindle seal (part 75).  Mine didn't have part 75.




And here's a picture of the interior side of the end cap.  The counterbore is an odd ball dimension something like 62.1mm.  I'm going to make an insert to reduce the bore to a standard dimension like 55mm or there abouts then buy an off the shelf seal to fit the spindle OD.  For info my spindle OD is 1.650" (41.9mm) but because I'm going to spin this thing up to 9000 rpm a contact seal won't live at that speed.  I can get a seal for a 1.655" shaft which gives me a small amount of clearance which keeps from frying the seal and will keep out most of the chips and coolant.  



Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

Mine didn't have a seal either. I put a thick o-ring on the spindle behind the cap to cover the gap.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Mine didn't have a seal either. I put a thick o-ring on the spindle behind the cap to cover the gap.



Interesting that the manual shows a seal but they ship the mill without one.  I like your o-ring fix. 

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

Update on my PM-932 belt drive conversion.  Got my angular contact bearings and the Kluber bearing grease is on the way.  Thanks jbolt for helping me sort out AC bearing suffix codes.  Ordered my VFD (Hitachi WJ200-015SF).  Should be here early next week.  Then the fun begins.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

My VFD (Hitachi WJ200-015SF) arrived this past Saturday.  The first order of business was to mount it in the enclosure.  Got that done today and will mount the enclosure on the control cabinet tomorrow after putting in air flow vents.




My approach is to get the VFD and motor wired and finish up the belt drive conversion so I can use the mill.  The second phase is to upgrade to a ESS and spindle control board.  My current motor wiring setup should make it fairly simple to get up and running quickly.  This is where I can use some help.  I have 240VAC single phase coming into the control enclosure.  This powers a 24VAC transformer that feeds the motor contactor coil.  When I push the power button the contactor latches sending 240VAC through the For/Rev switch to the motor.  The attached wiring diagram represents my current wiring with the exception that the head elevation circuitry has been removed as has the X axis power feed circuitry.  And my E-stop is now wired into the limit switch circuit. 

I have four wires coming out of the For/Rev switch. Can I/should I connect these to the VFD input?  If yes, how would I do that?  Connecting the motor to the VFD seems simple enough using the attached diagram.  L1 connects to U/T1, L2 connects to V/T2 and L3 connects to W/T3 on the VFD.  Correct?




Not sure how to connect P1 and P2 or if I need to.



And last question, at least for now.  What Ohm potentiometer do I need?  I've seen recommendations for 1K, 2K, 5K and 10K.  I have a 50K, a 100K and a 1 megaohm.  Will any of these work?

Thanks for your help.

Tom S.


----------



## tmarks11

P1 and P2 are a thermoswitch inside your motor; you are supposed to hook them up so it kills power to the motor if it overheats.  The Hitachi WJ200 has connections that are designated for that purpose.
1. Set code C005 to "19" (Page 4-6 "PTC) - (activates thermal protection)
2. P1 and P2 should be hooked between terminal "5" and "L" (page 4-30).

5K or 10K pot will get the job done.  You don't want to go much higher than that, since EMI will induce sufficient current to cause unstable response.
1. Set Code A001=00 (Page 3-12) -activates external pot.
2. Connect it between "L" and "O" (page 4-5).

Yes, you want to hook your FWD/REV switch into the VFD.  You probably also want to buy an E-Stop button and hook that into the VFD too.
1. Set Code A002 =01 (Page 3-13) - activates terminals for control
2. Lead from the FWD switch terminal to "1" (Page 4-16).
3.  Lead from the REV switch terminal to "2"
4. Switch power to "P24"

Not sure what on your switch equates to which position.  Basically, when the switch is in FWD, it should allow current to flow from "P24" to "1".  When in REV, "P24" to "2".

A couple other points:
1. You will want to set up regenerative braking to slow down faster
2. Make sure that your VFD controller box has good ventilation.  That thing can be putting out 100W of heat. You notice in the manual they specify installing it in a box that is at least 4" clearance above,4" below, and an 2" on each side.  That might be more than needed, but in the little box you have you might end up having to install a fan to keep ventilation flow (page 2-8).

EDIT: Hitachi, not Fujitsu....


----------



## TomS

tmarks11 said:


> P1 and P2 are a thermoswitch inside your motor; you are supposed to hook them up so it kills power to the motor if it overheats.
> 
> The Fujitsu WJ200 has connections that are designated for that purpose IIRC; let me take a quick look at the manual and check. Ideally you want the thermoswitch to tell the VFD to shut down.
> 
> 5K or 10K pot will get the job done.  You don't want to go much higher than that, since EMI will induce sufficient current to cause unstable response.
> 
> Yes, you want to hook your FWD/REV switch into the VFD.  You probably also want to buy an E-Stop button and hook that into the VFD too. Let me check the manual and get back to you.



Thanks.  For clarification my VFD is a Hitachi.

Tom S.


----------



## tmarks11

typo on my part, meant Hitachi.

Great VFDS; I have two Hitachi WJ200 VFDs: a 2 hp one on my lathe and a 3 hp one on my mill.

Note I went back and looked at the manual and added to my reply above.


----------



## mksj

I would recommend a 5K speed pot, the spec. for the WJ200 is 1K, so anything in the 1-5K should be OK. The P1 and P2 are thermostats (P-Stats), alternatively I often connect them either to the E-Stop circuit or there is the inputs/settings to connect them to the WJ200 as noted above, which will shut down and give you an error code. The connections will differ if you use source vs. sink logic.  Consideration should be given to if you want the P-Stat to shut down the motor AND also send a stop single to your CNC program, similar to a limit switch. Shutting down the motor in the middle of a cutting sequence could be problematic. It is also possible to use a simple 2 pole 24VAC relay powered through the motor P stat which also provides power  to the main power contactor and connect one pole to the the VFD P-Stat contacts and the other to CNC program stop function. Breaking power to the E-Stop, Power or the P-Stat opens turns off which opens the relay and stops  the motor, powers down the VFD (this takes about 30 seconds) and sends a stop signal to the CNC program.

I had previously posted a 3 wire connection diagram that can be used with momentary buttons as opposed to 2 wire sustained on to input 1 and 2. It also utilizes the current machine E-Stop system to power down the VFD.  A few people have used this on their PM mills. I am a bit unclear if this machine is going to be used for CNC, then the computer/program would control both the direction and speed of the motor directly unless you are manually going to be doing this.


----------



## TomS

mksj said:


> I would recommend a 5K speed pot, the spec. for the WJ200 is 1K, so anything in the 1-5K should be OK. The P1 and P2 are thermostats (P-Stats), alternatively I often connect them either to the E-Stop circuit or there is the inputs/settings to connect them to the WJ200 as noted above, which will shut down and give you an error code. The connections will differ if you use source vs. sink logic.  Consideration should be given to if you want the P-Stat to shut down the motor AND also send a stop single to your CNC program, similar to a limit switch. Shutting down the motor in the middle of a cutting sequence could be problematic. It is also possible to use a simple 2 pole 24VAC relay powered through the motor P stat which also provides power  to the main power contactor and connect one pole to the the VFD P-Stat contacts and the other to CNC program stop function. Breaking power to the E-Stop, Power or the P-Stat opens turns off which opens the relay and stops  the motor, powers down the VFD (this takes about 30 seconds) and sends a stop signal to the CNC program.
> 
> I had previously posted a 3 wire connection diagram that can be used with momentary buttons as opposed to 2 wire sustained on to input 1 and 2. It also utilizes the current machine E-Stop system to power down the VFD.  A few people have used this on their PM mills. I am a bit unclear if this machine is going to be used for CNC, then the computer/program would control both the direction and speed of the motor directly unless you are manually going to be doing this.


----------



## TomS

mksj said:


> I would recommend a 5K speed pot, the spec. for the WJ200 is 1K, so anything in the 1-5K should be OK. The P1 and P2 are thermostats (P-Stats), alternatively I often connect them either to the E-Stop circuit or there is the inputs/settings to connect them to the WJ200 as noted above, which will shut down and give you an error code. The connections will differ if you use source vs. sink logic.  Consideration should be given to if you want the P-Stat to shut down the motor AND also send a stop single to your CNC program, similar to a limit switch. Shutting down the motor in the middle of a cutting sequence could be problematic. It is also possible to use a simple 2 pole 24VAC relay powered through the motor P stat which also provides power  to the main power contactor and connect one pole to the the VFD P-Stat contacts and the other to CNC program stop function. Breaking power to the E-Stop, Power or the P-Stat opens turns off which opens the relay and stops  the motor, powers down the VFD (this takes about 30 seconds) and sends a stop signal to the CNC program.
> 
> I had previously posted a 3 wire connection diagram that can be used with momentary buttons as opposed to 2 wire sustained on to input 1 and 2. It also utilizes the current machine E-Stop system to power down the VFD.  A few people have used this on their PM mills. I am a bit unclear if this machine is going to be used for CNC, then the computer/program would control both the direction and speed of the motor directly unless you are manually going to be doing this.



I found your schematic last night, couldn't remember where I first saw it, and studied it thoroughly.  Bear with me as electricity is not my strong point.  If I understand your logic the factory supplied for/rev switch is still used to control spindle direction.  I understand the function of the two momentary switches; one for On and one for Off.   Is this correct?  Is the symbol in the wire between forward and reverse a diode?    

For info my mill is CNC but will manually be changing speed and spindle direction until I move onto phase 2.  Phase 2 will be a ESS and spindle control board upgrade.

Til the next onslaught of questions, thanks for your help.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

tmarks11 said:


> P1 and P2 are a thermoswitch inside your motor; you are supposed to hook them up so it kills power to the motor if it overheats.  The Hitachi WJ200 has connections that are designated for that purpose.
> 1. Set code C005 to "19" (Page 4-6 "PTC) - (activates thermal protection)
> 2. P1 and P2 should be hooked between terminal "5" and "L" (page 4-30).
> 
> 5K or 10K pot will get the job done.  You don't want to go much higher than that, since EMI will induce sufficient current to cause unstable response.
> 1. Set Code A001=00 (Page 3-12) -activates external pot.
> 2. Connect it between "L" and "O" (page 4-5).
> 
> Yes, you want to hook your FWD/REV switch into the VFD.  You probably also want to buy an E-Stop button and hook that into the VFD too.
> 1. Set Code A002 =01 (Page 3-13) - activates terminals for control
> 2. Lead from the FWD switch terminal to "1" (Page 4-16).
> 3.  Lead from the REV switch terminal to "2"
> 4. Switch power to "P24"
> 
> Not sure what on your switch equates to which position.  Basically, when the switch is in FWD, it should allow current to flow from "P24" to "1".  When in REV, "P24" to "2".
> 
> A couple other points:
> 1. You will want to set up regenerative braking to slow down faster
> 2. Make sure that your VFD controller box has good ventilation.  That thing can be putting out 100W of heat. You notice in the manual they specify installing it in a box that is at least 4" clearance above,4" below, and an 2" on each side.  That might be more than needed, but in the little box you have you might end up having to install a fan to keep ventilation flow (page 2-8).
> 
> EDIT: Hitachi, not Fujitsu....



Tim - your input is appreciated.  I've got four wires coming from my for/rev switch.  Are you saying two go to P24, one goes to terminal 1 and the remaining one goes to terminal 2?  Sorry for any stupid questions but I want to make sure I don't fry the VFD because I mis-wired something.

Yes, my plan is to add a fan to the enclosure.  Got it on the P1/P2 leads.  Seems simple enough.

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

Not sure if the picture of the VFD in the box is the way you intend to mount it but you will want the control panel facing you for programming etc.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Not sure if the picture of the VFD in the box is the way you intend to mount it but you will want the control panel facing you for programming etc.



Unfortunately that's the only way it will mount.  It's a 12" x 12" x 6" enclosure.  I opted to go with this enclosure because it was in stock locally.  My mill has been down for a month and I want to get it running.  Worst case is I leave the wiring a bit long and do the programming with the VFD out of the enclosure.  The screen is visible and I can get to the buttons the way it is.  Thankfully I only have to program it once.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

Thanks to mksj and others I've got my VFD wired.  Next step is to wire the motor but I can't do that until I get the spindle grease so I can assemble the spindle.  I'd like to do the VFD programming while waiting for the grease but I think I heard that you can't run the VFD unless it's connected to the motor.  Is this true?  

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

Success, at last.  Got my spindle together and installed and ran it with the belt.  No abnormal issues except a rattle coming from the spindle.  It's the spindle spline rattling in the drive sleeve.  I know it's the spline and drive sleeve because when I tighten the spindle lock the rattle becomes louder.  I ran for 15 minutes at 900 rpm, then another 15 minutes at 1800 rpm, then ramped up to 3600 rpm and finally a run of 6400 rpm for another 15 minutes.  Highest measurable temp was 103 deg. F at the drive sleeve bearings.  It also whines a bit but my understanding is this is normal.  I seem remember there is a parameter setting that helps to reduce the whine.

I got a over-voltage error when I quickly turned the pot down from 90 hz to 0 hz.  It's got something to do with dynamic braking I'm sure.  I'll look through the parameters and figure out which one to change.  I'll try it with no braking and see how long it takes to coast down.

All in all a great learning project.  Thanks to MKSJ (Mark) and several others for chiming in with answers and suggestions.  I would not have taken on this project without their help and guidance.  I've attached the files MKSJ sent me so that others can see what I did.  Hopefully it will help someone else.  I tried uploading a short video of the mill running at 6400 rpm but the file is huge.  I'll see what I can do about reducing the file size.

Tom S.

KM2 and KM3 are no longer there nor is the DC Z axis lift motor.


----------



## jbolt

Awesome!


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Awesome!



Thanks.  Can't wait to take some trial cuts to test the bearing preload.  Maybe tomorrow if the grandkids go away.  LOL

Tom S.


----------



## tmarks11

If you install an external braking resistor ($20-30 on eBay), it will help the rapid deceleration.  You would be able to stop the spindle in less than a second.


----------



## jbolt

I had the spline rattle and fixed by greasing it. 

I don't use electronic breaking with spindle controlled from Mach3. There is enough drag with the belt drive to slow it down quickly enough. I do like it on the lathe though.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> I had the spline rattle and fixed by greasing it.
> 
> I don't use electronic breaking with spindle controlled from Mach3. There is enough drag with the belt drive to slow it down quickly enough. I do like it on the lathe though.



Thanks for the tip on greasing the spline.  I'll give it a try.

I was thinking along the same lines as you on electronic braking.  I've looked through the parameter list and there are several that address overvoltage fault error.  I'm going to change them one at a time and see what effect they have on decel time and if I still get the dreaded overvoltage fault.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

tmarks11 said:


> If you install an external braking resistor ($20-30 on eBay), it will help the rapid deceleration.  You would be able to stop the spindle in less than a second.



Thought about a resistor but this project has stretched my electrical skills to the max.  For the moment I'm going to play with the deceleration features and see if I can get around the overvoltage fault by increasing the decel time.  Phase 2 will be an upgraded BoB, ESS, and spindle control board.  I'll look at it again when I do Phase 2.

Thanks,


Tom S.


----------



## TomS

This is my first time uploading a video.  It is a clip of my mill running at 6400 rpm (90 hz) after completing the VFD/belt drive conversion.  Sure beats a top speed of 1970.  Not sure why it turned 90 deg. or how to correct it.  File size started out at 63 mb.  Got it down to 4 mb.  Still have some fine tuning to do and a few details to finish up.  If you listen closely you can hear the spindle spline/drive sleeve rattle I mentioned in my post above.

Tom S.


----------



## Davd Flowers

Maybe I missed it, but how is the driven pulley attached to the spindle?  Awesome thread BTW....


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Maybe I missed it, but how is the driven pulley attached to the spindle?  Awesome thread BTW....




Thanks for the kinds words.  As most others have done when converting their mills to belt drive I modified the splined sleeve (part 57) on the attached drawing by machining off the gear and cutting a snap ring groove to retain the pulley.  Some have threaded the end of the sleeve for a retaining nut.  The sleeve is then assembled inverted from it's original orientation.  See the picture below of the finished sleeve.

Tom S.


----------



## Davd Flowers

OK, I think I see.
  The pulley is pressed and keyed to the splined coupler, but then does it just sit over the spindle shaft or is there any type of bearing support on it?


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> OK, I think I see.
> The pulley is pressed and keyed to the splined coupler, but then does it just sit over the spindle shaft or is there any type of bearing support on it?



There are two ball bearings and a spacer that support the sleeve.  These pictures are not of my assembly but illustrate how it's done.  You will see that this assembly has inner and outer bearing race spacers.  That's because a retaining nut is used to compress the bearings against the lower snap ring.   Here are a few pictures of the sleeve assembly and installation.

Let me know if you need more info.

Tom S.

Individual components that make up the assembly.  Note that this picture shows a retaining nut at the top.  My assembly uses a snap ring and no inner bearing race spacer.  See the snap ring between the two bearings?  That fits into a groove in the bearing bore of the cover plate and retains the sleeve assembly in the cover plate.



Here are the components assembled on the sleeve for illustration only.  To assemble the parts in the cover plate you first install the snap ring in the bearing bore, then press in the bearings.  Drop in the bearing spacer(s), slip the sleeve into the bearings, install the key and pulley and tighten the nut or in my case install the upper snap ring. 



The sleeve assembly, minus the pulley installed in the cover plate.



Bottom view of the cover plate.


----------



## Davd Flowers

OK, I got it now 
Thanks for taking the time to show me.


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> OK, I got it now
> Thanks for taking the time to show me.



Glad to help.

Tom S.


----------



## Davd Flowers

Im thinking that this is a mod I want to do sooner than later   Now if only my ball screws would hurry up and get here!


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Im thinking that this is a mod I want to do sooner than later   Now if only my ball screws would hurry up and get here!



It's worth doing sooner than later.  Machining aluminum with a 1/4" carbide end mill at 1970 rpm will test your patience.  I've had my mill running under CNC for about 1-1/2 years and immediately saw a need for higher rpm.  Should have listened to recommendations by others on this site but went the auxiliary spindle route and soon discovered that, although workable, didn't work well machining steel and end mills larger than 1/4".   Good luck with your conversion and please post pictures.  We're voyeurs when it comes to machinery.

Tom S.


----------



## Davd Flowers

TomS said:


> It's worth doing sooner than later.  Machining aluminum with a 1/4" carbide end mill at 1970 rpm will test your patience.  I've had my mill running under CNC for about 1-1/2 years and immediately saw a need for higher rpm.  Should have listened to recommendations by others on this site but went the auxiliary spindle route and soon discovered that, although workable, didn't work well machining steel and end mills larger than 1/4".   Good luck with your conversion and please post pictures.  We're voyeurs when it comes to machinery.
> 
> Tom S.




  I know all too well about having patience. The g0704 lacks rpms as well, and its lack of rigidity keeps it from swinging the larger endmills I can run in my bridgeport. I added a auxiliary spindle to it, but that was for running a .010" endmill for some engraving work.  I apologize for the bit of a thread derail, but offer some pics as  atonement.


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> I know all too well about having patience. The g0704 lacks rpms as well, and its lack of rigidity keeps it from swinging the larger endmills I can run in my bridgeport. I added a auxiliary spindle to it, but that was for running a .010" endmill for some engraving work.  I apologize for the bit of a thread derail, but offer some pics as  atonement.



Nice medallion!  I've got a couple of hot rods.  What do you have?

Here's a pic of my auxiliary spindle.

Tom S.




Super PID speed controller gets me down to 5000 rpm.


----------



## Davd Flowers

This is my current project....


----------



## Davd Flowers

This is my Dads, we finished it up a couple years ago.


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> This is my Dads, we finished it up a couple years ago.



Nice cars!  Really like the 40.  Built a few over the years too.  These are my current wheels in storage for the winter.

Built in 1996.  Had so much fun in it we wore out the first engine.



This is the work in progress.  Mechanically done.  Paint and interior next on the agenda.


----------



## Davd Flowers

Nice, I especially like the 32


----------



## TomS

I've had my VFD and belt drive conversion running for a few months now and am pleased with the results.  Speeds and feeds are now where they should be and surface finishes are improved as are machining times.  Now it's time for phase 2 of the conversion: PMDX-126 BoB, PMDX-107 spindle control board and ethernet smoothstepper.

I've got the BoB, spindle controller and ESS mounted in an enclosure and currently wiring the components.  Thank God for Google!  Pictures to follow.  One question I have is in regards to wiring my drivers (DQ860MA and DQ2722) to the BoB.  I've got the step, direction and com wiring figured out but the enable wire from the driver has me puzzled.  I've read the PMDX manual several times as well as the AN002 bulletin and associated flyer on whether to enable or not to enable.  From what I understand the enable signal is a 5vdc signal to the driver to lock the motors in position during startup.  Is this correct?  If yes, then I can connect the enable wire to the PC+5V terminal at the BoB?  Am I on the right path?

I'm sure more questions will come up as I work my way through.  

Thanks,

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

Sorry Tom I cannot help. I don't use the enable wire on my machines. Never saw the need.

I believe you use the "PC ground" on the connector but I'm not sure how you set that up.

You might try searching the PMDX forums or posting a question. Steve is pretty good at responding.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Sorry Tom I cannot help. I don't use the enable wire on my machines. Never saw the need.
> 
> I believe you use the "PC ground" on the connector but I'm not sure how you set that up.
> 
> You might try searching the PMDX forums or posting a question. Steve is pretty good at responding.



Thanks Jay.  I was hoping you saw my post.  Nothing on the PMDX forums relating to my question.  I'll sign up and post it there.  

I've got the wiring done.  Next steps are to make sure the jumpers and dip switches are set correctly and double check my wiring.  Then it's onto Mach and ESS configuration and testing.  I'm sure I'll have more questions.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

I'm at the point where I need to fire up the computer so I can configure and test the electronics.  Before I do that I'd like some feedback on my wiring and initial configurations.  Don't want any smoke to get out!

Some notes first.  I left in place the VFD wiring for my On/Off switch, Fwd/Rev switch, and potentiometer.  For those VFD terminals shared between manual control and Mach3 control I spliced the wires together.  I'm still reading through the PMDX and ESS manuals and searching the net. Still have some configuration to do such as spindle pin assignment, ESS configuration, and more.   

Here are my wiring and initial settings:

Drivers to PMDX-126 (J1, J2 and J3)
Step signal to Pin 8, 6 and 4 on J1, J2 and J3
Dir signal to Pin 9, 7 and 5 on J1, J2 and J3
Enable signal not connected

115VAC to PMDX-126 (switch set to "115")

Probe wire to J12 Pin 15 (ground is through spindle)
Limit switches to J12 Pin 11 (wired in series)
Limit switch ground to adjacent GND terminal
E-stop wire to J13 "E-stop" Pin
E-stop ground to adjacent GND terminal

JP1 set to Pin 1
JP2 set to Pin 14
JP3 set to OFF
JP4 no jumper provided
JP5 set to OFF
JP6 set to NORMAL

PMDX-126 SW1
Config 1 - Open (Off)
Config 2 - Closed (On)
Config 3 - Closed
Config 4 - Closed
Config 5 - Closed
Config 6 - Closed
Config 7 - Open
Config 8 - Open

PMDX-107 to VFD (Hitachi WJ200)
SW1 - all off

Rev/Dir to VFD terminal 2 (logic input)
Fwd/Run to VFD terminal 1 (logic input)
Com to VFD terminal P24 (+24V for logic inputs)
Aref to VFD terminal H (+10V analog reference)
Aout to VFD terminal O (analog voltage input)
Agnd to VFD terminal L (GRND for logic inputs)

Mach3 Spindle Setup
Disable Relay Control - Checked
Use Spindle Motor Output - Checked
PWM Control - Checked (I'm thinking this should be Step/Dir Motor based on my PMDX-107 wiring)
PWM Base Frequency - 25
Minimum PWM - 5%

Spindle Motor Tuning
Steps per - 1000
Velocity - 60
Acceleration - 5000

Pulley Selection
Pulley 1, Min Speed = 0, Max Speed = 8625, Ratio = 2.5
Pulley 2, Min Speed = 0, Max Speed = 1380, Ratio = .4

Thanks,


Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

Step/Dir setting per your settings in Mach3

I don't use a probe so N/A

My limits are wired in parallel so N/A

E-stop "OK"

Power in is correct if using household current.

JP1 set to Pin 1
JP2 set to Pin 14
JP3 set to OFF
JP4 set to OFF
JP5 set to OFF
JP6 set to NORMAL

* PMDX-126 SW1*
Config 1 - Open (Off)
Config 2 - Closed (On)
Config 3 - Closed
Config 4 - Closed
Config 5 - Closed
Config 6 - Closed
Config 7 - Closed (position does not matter if JP1 set to pin 1)
Config 8 - Closed position (does not matter if JP2 set to pin 14)


******************
My VFD is different so N/A but below is my setup for a Haunyang VFD for comparison

PMDX-107 ---> VFD
Pin 6 - Rev/Dir ----> REV (reverse run)
Pin 5 - Fwd/Run ----> FOR (forward run)
Pin 4 - COM (common terminal for relays, pins 5 & 6) ----> DCM (common terminal of digital and control signals)
Pin 3 - Aref (not used)
Pin 2 - Aout (spindle speed analog control voltage) ----> VI (analog voltage frequency reference input)
Pin 1 - Agnd (VSD ground reference) ----> ACM (common terminal of analog and control signals)

PMDX Config settings (dip switches)
Config 1 = Off (Normal Mode)
Config 2 = Off (Normal Mode)
Config 3 = Off (relays operate as for and reverse control signals)
Config 4 = Off (charge pump signal required)
Slow = On (fast PWM filter response) (Off setting caused some issues with my cheap Chinese VFD)
5v/10v = Off (10v reference)

********************

*Mach3 Spindle Setup*
Disable Relay Control - Checked
Use Spindle Motor Output - Checked
PWM Control - Checked 
PWM Base Frequency - 25
Minimum PWM - 5%

*Under "General" I set the spin up delay to 1 second longer than the spin up parameter in the VFD to make sure the spindle was up to speed before cutting. 

Spindle Motor Tuning
Steps per - 1000
Velocity - 60
Acceleration - 5000

********************
**Pulley Selection 
Pulley 1, Min Speed = 0, Max Speed = 8625, Ratio = 2.5
Pulley 2, Min Speed = 0, Max Speed = 1380, Ratio = .4

**(I never figured out how to switch between pulleys in the software so I have pulley 1 as my high speed pulley. When I use the low range I have a tool library setup in HSMworks just for low speed tools and the speed is set to compensate for the speed reduction. If you figure that out please post how it is done)

I can email you screen shots of my ESS setting if you want to see them.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Step/Dir setting per your settings in Mach3
> 
> I don't use a probe so N/A
> 
> My limits are wired in parallel so N/A
> 
> E-stop "OK"
> 
> Power in is correct if using household current.
> 
> JP1 set to Pin 1
> JP2 set to Pin 14
> JP3 set to OFF
> JP4 set to OFF
> JP5 set to OFF
> JP6 set to NORMAL
> 
> * PMDX-126 SW1*
> Config 1 - Open (Off)
> Config 2 - Closed (On)
> Config 3 - Closed
> Config 4 - Closed
> Config 5 - Closed
> Config 6 - Closed
> Config 7 - Closed (position does not matter if JP1 set to pin 1)
> Config 8 - Closed position (does not matter if JP2 set to pin 14)
> 
> 
> ******************
> My VFD is different so N/A but below is my setup for a Haunyang VFD for comparison
> 
> PMDX-107 ---> VFD
> Pin 6 - Rev/Dir ----> REV (reverse run)
> Pin 5 - Fwd/Run ----> FOR (forward run)
> Pin 4 - COM (common terminal for relays, pins 5 & 6) ----> DCM (common terminal of digital and control signals)
> Pin 3 - Aref (not used)
> Pin 2 - Aout (spindle speed analog control voltage) ----> VI (analog voltage frequency reference input)
> Pin 1 - Agnd (VSD ground reference) ----> ACM (common terminal of analog and control signals)
> 
> PMDX Config settings (dip switches)
> Config 1 = Off (Normal Mode)
> Config 2 = Off (Normal Mode)
> Config 3 = Off (relays operate as for and reverse control signals)
> Config 4 = Off (charge pump signal required)
> Slow = On (fast PWM filter response) (Off setting caused some issues with my cheap Chinese VFD)
> 5v/10v = Off (10v reference)
> 
> ********************
> 
> *Mach3 Spindle Setup*
> Disable Relay Control - Checked
> Use Spindle Motor Output - Checked
> PWM Control - Checked
> PWM Base Frequency - 25
> Minimum PWM - 5%
> 
> *Under "General" I set the spin up delay to 1 second longer than the spin up parameter in the VFD to make sure the spindle was up to speed before cutting.
> 
> Spindle Motor Tuning
> Steps per - 1000
> Velocity - 60
> Acceleration - 5000
> 
> ********************
> **Pulley Selection
> Pulley 1, Min Speed = 0, Max Speed = 8625, Ratio = 2.5
> Pulley 2, Min Speed = 0, Max Speed = 1380, Ratio = .4
> 
> **(I never figured out how to switch between pulleys in the software so I have pulley 1 as my high speed pulley. When I use the low range I have a tool library setup in HSMworks just for low speed tools and the speed is set to compensate for the speed reduction. If you figure that out please post how it is done)
> 
> I can email you screen shots of my ESS setting if you want to see them.



Thanks for taking a look and commenting.  Always good to have another set of eyes checking to make sure I didn't do something foolish.  I finished up configuring Mach3 today.  Just have to make a couple of changes you recommended and other than a couple of dip switch changes looks like I'm ready to power it up.  

I would have thought I could find more info on wiring the spindle control board to my VFD.  All I could find is one example of a Hitachi VFD and the PMDX-107 spindle control board.  So that's what I used along with the PMDX manual.

Yes, please send me screen shots of your ESS configuration.  No hurry though.  Leaving for Oregon tomorrow to get away from the 110 degree heat.  I'll get back to it in a couple of weeks.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

For those interested here are a few pictures of my BoB, ESS and spindle control board installation.

A piece of 3/16" aluminum plate cut to fit into the 12" x 12" enclosure.  1" tall stand-offs for mounting the BoB.  






115vac in at the top and control wiring (ethernet cable, motor driver and limit switch wires) in at bottom.  Five 9/16" stand-offs for mounting the 3/16" plate.





The new electronics mounted and ready for installation.





The plate mounted in the enclosure and components wired.


----------



## TomS

Finished up installation and configuration of the BoB and ESS and have them working in normal mode.  I can jog the motors, the e-stop works, limit switches do what they are supposed to do, and the probe functions.  But when I configure the Dip switch for normal mode with charge pump (as suggested in PMDX Bulletin AN002) the motors no longer move and the remote e-stop doesn't work.  I've enabled the charge pump function in Mach3 and specified Port 1 and Pin 17.  Spent most of yesterday reading and trying to track down a solution.  No luck!

My second issue is I can't get the PMDX-107 board to communicate with my VFD (Hitachi WJ200-015SF).  I followed the AN002 instructions but still no communication.  Tried it with charge pump and without.  I'm definitely missing something in the 107 or VFD configuration. 

PLC is jumpered to L on upper row "Source Logic".

Motor thermal switch to Terminal 5 (Logic Input) and Terminal L (Grnd for logic inputs) on VFD

107 to VFD Connections:

Rev/Dir  to Terminal 2 on VFD (Logic Input)
Fwd/Run to Terminal 1 on VFD (Logic Input)
COM to Terminal P24 on VFD (+24V for logic inputs)
Aref to Terminal H on VFD (+10V analog reference and probably not needed)
Aout to Terminal O on VFD (analog voltage input)
Agnd to Terminal L on lower row on VFD (GRND for logic inputs)

Not sure what I'm doing wrong.  Any help is appreciated.  If more information is needed please ask.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> Finished up installation and configuration of the BoB and ESS and have them working in normal mode.  I can jog the motors, the e-stop works, limit switches do what they are supposed to do, and the probe functions.  But when I configure the Dip switch for normal mode with charge pump (as suggested in PMDX Bulletin AN002) the motors no longer move and the remote e-stop doesn't work.  I've enabled the charge pump function in Mach3 and specified Port 1 and Pin 17.  Spent most of yesterday reading and trying to track down a solution.  No luck!
> 
> My second issue is I can't get the PMDX-107 board to communicate with my VFD (Hitachi WJ200-015SF).  I followed the AN002 instructions but still no communication.  Tried it with charge pump and without.  I'm definitely missing something in the 107 or VFD configuration.
> 
> PLC is jumpered to L on upper row "Source Logic".
> 
> Motor thermal switch to Terminal 5 (Logic Input) and Terminal L (Grnd for logic inputs) on VFD
> 
> 107 to VFD Connections:
> 
> Rev/Dir  to Terminal 2 on VFD (Logic Input)
> Fwd/Run to Terminal 1 on VFD (Logic Input)
> COM to Terminal P24 on VFD (+24V for logic inputs)
> Aref to Terminal H on VFD (+10V analog reference and probably not needed so I removed it)
> Aout to Terminal O on VFD (analog voltage input)
> Agnd to Terminal L on lower row on VFD (GRND for logic inputs)
> 
> Not sure what I'm doing wrong.  Any help is appreciated.  If more information is needed please ask.
> 
> Tom S.



Attached is the programming info Mark (MKSJ) sent me when I first setup my vfd.  Worked perfect right out of the box.  Keep in mind these settings are for controlling speed with an external pot.  

I played with some of the parameters again this morning and had zero luck getting the spindle to rotate.  The PMDX-126 pin 14 LED pulsed when I entered an "S" command so there is some communication between the BoB and 107 spindle board.

I'm stumped.

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> Attached is the programming info Mark (MKSJ) sent me when I first setup my vfd.  Worked perfect right out of the box.  Keep in mind these settings are for controlling speed with an external pot.
> 
> I played with some of the parameters again this morning and had zero luck getting the spindle to rotate.  The PMDX-126 pin 14 LED pulsed when I entered an "S" command so there is some communication between the BoB and 107 spindle board.
> 
> I'm stumped.
> 
> Tom S.


 Hey Tom,

Your connections to the VFD look okay. What are the A001, A002, C001 and C002 setting in the VFD programming?

I would also double check the physical wire connections with a MM to verify the wires are good.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Hey Tom,
> 
> Your connections to the VFD look okay. What are the A001, A002, C001 and C002 setting in the VFD programming?
> 
> I would also double check the physical wire connections with a MM to verify the wires are good.



A001 is "Function F001 Setting".  For reference the F001 setting is 0 Hz.

A002 is "Control Terminal"

C001 is "STA:Start Motor"

C002 is "STP:Stop Motor"

Thanks


----------



## jbolt

I'm not sure Marks setting for C001, C002 & C003 apply to the PMDX-107

Try these settings: 

A001 - 01 Control Terminal
C001 to 00:FW
C002 to 01:REV

I believe Aref is only used with a POT.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> I'm not sure Marks setting for C001, C002 & C003 apply to the PMDX-107
> 
> Try these settings:
> 
> A001 - 01 Control Terminal
> C001 to 00:FW
> C002 to 01:REV
> 
> I believe Aref is only used with a POT.



I'll try your suggestions in the morning.  I think you are right about Aref being used only for a pot.

Thanks


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> I'm not sure Marks setting for C001, C002 & C003 apply to the PMDX-107
> 
> Try these settings:
> 
> A001 - 01 Control Terminal
> C001 to 00:FW
> C002 to 01:REV
> 
> I believe Aref is only used with a POT.



Works perfect!  The spindle responds to M3, M4 and S commands.  I knew it had to be something in the 107 or VFD configuration but with so many VFD parameters it was a bit confusing as to which one's did what, at least to me.  

Ran the calibration routine and set max RPM with no problems.  Had to readjust deceleration values because it was taking about a minute to coast down from top speed.  All is good now.

Thanks again for your help.  

FWIW - posted on the PMDX forum same time I posted here.  Still no response from them.  Another reason, and there are many, why I like this forum.

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

Awesome!


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Awesome!



Today was a good day.  Spent some time cleaning up wiring and motor tuning.  I'm ready to make parts!

I really like the way the PMDX-126 runs the motors.  They seem to be operating smoother and the X and Y backlash I was chasing a few months ago is much less.  Not sure why the backlash is better but it was about .007" and measuring it today it's about .0015".  Maybe it's the way the board processes pulses.  Homing is much improved as well.  My old BoB would reverse the drive as soon as it hit the home switch.  With this BoB it hits the switch, pauses for a moment, then reverses.  Much more sophisticated.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

I ran my first job with the new electronics a couple of days ago.  The job ran OK but the finish sucks.  See the picture below and focus on the slot chamfer.  The same roughness is also present on the slot sidewall.  Digging deeper I ran some tests today to see if I could isolate the source. 

I have adequate spindle bearing preload because I get about 15 to 20 deg F metal temperature rise in the areas around the bearings after running at 8600 rpm for thirty minutes.  I ran a couple of more detailed tests at different preloads before reaching this conclusion.  I've also read that some people have experienced poor surface finish when converting to AC bearings b ut haven't been able to find out if going back to tapered rollers solved the problem.    

My tool changer draw bar has about 6" of stick out above the spindle.  Thinking the drawbar may be whipping at high rpm I removed my tool changer and tried a R8 collett and standard draw bar.  I took a cut on a test piece of aluminum at 8600 rpm using a 3/8" 4 flute carbide end mill and there was no difference in surface finish.  Slowed the speed down to 4000 rpm, still no difference.  Then down again to 2200 rpm and no difference.  Also played with feed rates but still no change in surface finish.  

Next I removed the belt and ran the motor.  It was smooth and quiet through it's rpm range.  

The other two sources, that I can think of, are the spindle pulley bearings and the spindle drive sleeve to spindle spline interface.  Spinning the spindle pulley by hand the bearings seem smooth.  Moving on to the drive sleeve/spindle spline interface there is some clearance that is evident when running.  There is a noticeable rattle that becomes more pronounced as speed goes up.  If I could eliminate the sleeve and install the pulley directly on the spindle I would.  Problem is I need about 1/2" of spindle quill travel for my tool changer to work.

I'm looking into some sort of sleeve, possibly Delrin, that has an interference fit between the spindle splines and the drive sleeve.  Not sure this will take care of the rattle though.  

I'm looking forward to feedback from the forum on correcting the surface finish issue.

TIA

Tom S.  

Picture of my surface finish.  Notice the roughness of the slot chamfer.


----------



## Davd Flowers

Coolant??  Yes?  No?
  My first thought is not to go chasing your tail, but need more information.  What are you using to evacuate the chips and are you using any sort of coolant?
  My chamfers looked similar if I dont use any sort of coolant. Just a couple shots of wd40 worked wonders.


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Coolant??  Yes?  No?
> My first thought is not to go chasing your tail, but need more information.  What are you using to evacuate the chips and are you using any sort of coolant?
> My chamfers looked similar if I dont use any sort of coolant. Just a couple shots of wd40 worked wonders.



I'm using Rustlick 5050 and flooding the cutting area with two nozzles.   Don't know the exact pressure but it's somewhere around 50 psi.  Chips aren't a problem.

Here's a picture of the parts.  You can't see the surface roughness but the periphery and slot side walls are as rough as the chamfer.  Not what I consider acceptable.

Tom S.


----------



## Davd Flowers

Have you checked the run out with a test indicator?


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Have you checked the run out with a test indicator?



Good point!  Not since I changed out the bearings.  Before the bearing changeout runout was nearly zero, maybe .0001".  I heading out of town this morning and can't get to it until tomorrow evening.

Tom S.


----------



## Davd Flowers

One other thing I can think of.  What alloy are you cutting on?  I ran into some that was annealed (I think anyway)  and it was gummy and didn't finish well at all.


----------



## jbolt

A couple of thoughts;

Do you lock the quill when running? 

On the spline, mine rattled a lot when I first did the CNC conversion. I solved that by pumping the space between the splines full of high pressure grease.


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> One other thing I can think of.  What alloy are you cutting on?  I ran into some that was annealed (I think anyway)  and it was gummy and didn't finish well at all.



6061-T6.  BTW - was able to get in the shop this morning before I hit the road.  Spindle taper runout was no more than .0002".  I still need to take more readings with the spindle at operating temp.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> A couple of thoughts;
> 
> Do you lock the quill when running?
> 
> On the spline, mine rattled a lot when I first did the CNC conversion. I solved that by pumping the space between the splines full of high pressure grease.



Yes, spindle is locked.  I tried wheel bearing grease but that didn't help much.  I'll see if I can find something that is a thicker consistency and give it another try.

I'm also going to check my gib adjustment.  You never know.

Tom S.


----------



## jbolt

I used an amsoil product meant for heavy equipment chasis. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## jbolt

https://www.nexgencam.com/hsm-tips-tricks/item/understanding-cut-and-smoothing-tolerances


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> https://www.nexgencam.com/hsm-tips-tricks/item/understanding-cut-and-smoothing-tolerances



Interesting article.  This certainly points to a possible cause, and solution.  I use two CAM programs: CamBam and Fusion 360.  Fusion has a smoothing setting and CamBam sort of has one.  I ran my parts with CamBam.  Hmmm?  I'll run the program using Fusion and see what happens.

Tom S.


----------



## TomS

I created a test piece in Fusion and set up the CAM.  The test piece is a 1/2" x 3" x 3" piece of aluminum with a 1.250" hole in the middle.  I set the tolerance to .0004", checked smoothing and set the smoothing tolerance to .0004".  Using a 3/8" 4 flute carbide end mill I pocketed the 1-1/4" hole at 4000 rpm and 10 IPM.  Surface finish is still terrible.  

Checked the spindle taper runout after running the spindle for 10 minutes.  Still at no more than .0002".

I've got more reading to do on smoothing and Mach3.  Evidently there are a few settings that can be turned on or off.  

Tom S.


----------



## Davd Flowers

Try kicking the ipm to 25, at 10 ipm your not even taking a thou per tooth off.......  I would be curious to see your g code to get a better idea what your doing. aonemarine at aol dot com.


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Try kicking the ipm to 25, at 10 ipm your not even taking a thou per tooth off.......  I would be curious to see your g code to get a better idea what your doing. aonemarine at aol dot com.



I started at 60 IPM, then 30, then 10.  Not  a significant change in surface finish with the three feed rates.

Here's the gcode file.

Edit:  Been doing some reading on arc fitting.  Haven't read enough yet but I'm thinking it's the same as smoothing.


----------



## Davd Flowers

Yikes!!  Ok so your just slotting with no finish pass???


----------



## Davd Flowers

My mistake,  I need to learn codeing better,  i see the second pass for finishing...


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Yikes!!  Ok so your just slotting with no finish pass???



No.  I roughed out a 1.240" through pocket in a piece of 1/2" thick aluminum.  The gcode I sent you is the pocket finishing pass.


----------



## jbolt

Can you post a better picture of the cut finish?

Have you tried a 2 flute end mill? With a 2f carbide end mill I would run that at 6000 rpm (my max) 22 ipm with a 40% step over for the roughing and a finishing pass at 10 ipm and .015 cut, both run as a climb cut.

The only 4 flute end mills I use on aluminum are the corn cob roughers. I prefer single flute chamfer end mills for chamfering.


----------



## Davd Flowers

TomS said:


> No.  I roughed out a 1.240" through pocket in a piece of 1/2" thick aluminum.  The gcode I sent you is the pocket finishing pass.


 Ok so the second pass

Finishing pass with a spring pass??  Ok going to back up a bit.  have you checked the backlash of your X Y ball screws and what are your drivers set too?  Micro stepping?  What file format is the cad model in?


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Can you post a better picture of the cut finish?
> 
> Have you tried a 2 flute end mill? With a 2f carbide end mill I would run that at 6000 rpm (my max) 22 ipm with a 40% step over for the roughing and a finishing pass at 10 ipm and .015 cut, both run as a climb cut.
> 
> The only 4 flute end mills I use on aluminum are the corn cob roughers. I prefer single flute chamfer end mills for chamfering.



I'll try to get a better picture.  Haven't tried a 2 flute because the finish is so bad with the 4 flute. 

I normally would run this job at 8000 rpm and 60 IPM with .1 stepdown and stepover for roughing.  Finishing is done at full depth (.5) and stepover at .01 and 30 IPM.  I've played with speeds and feeds to see if the surface finish get better but no change.   I ran some mild steel parts before I changed out my electronics and the surface finish was superb.  I'll try and get a picture of that part as well.


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Ok so the second pass
> 
> Finishing pass with a spring pass??  Ok going to back up a bit.  have you checked the backlash of your X Y ball screws and what are your drivers set too?  Micro stepping?  What file format is the cad model in?



Yes, finishing pass with a spring pass.  My drivers are set for microstepping.  I'll have to look at the specific setting.  Can't remember because it's been so long since I set them up.

I have some backlash.  About .002" in X and Y but as I said in my previous post the mild steel parts I made before the electronics upgrade had a very good surface finish.

The CAD model is Fusion 360 format.  I've attached it below.  Change the file type from .txt to .f3d and it should open.


----------



## Davd Flowers

Dont know if you feel safe about running some one else's g code but if you do...  Stock is 3"x 3"x .5"  and X Y zero is center of stock and z zero is top of stock.  I used a .250" engraver for the chamfer, but any size would work as long as it comes to a point.


----------



## Davd Flowers

I would be curious to see what the finish looks like if you set your drivers back to half step...


----------



## jbolt

Are you running the ESS on a dedicated 5v power supply?

For your finishes to degrade after changing the electronics suggests a problem with the settings or possibly electrical interference. I will see if I can get screen captures of my ESS configuration for comparison.


----------



## jbolt

Davd Flowers said:


> I would be curious to see what the finish looks like if you set your drivers back to half step...



Toms setup is very similar to mine and I'm running my drivers in micro-stepping with no issues.


----------



## Davd Flowers

jbolt said:


> Toms setup is very similar to mine and I'm running my drivers in micro-stepping with no issues.


 Same amount of backlash?  IIRC a half step on a 5mm pitch screw yields about .0005" Dont really see the point in micro stepping.  What am I missing ??


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Are you running the ESS on a dedicated 5v power supply?
> 
> For your finishes to degrade after changing the electronics suggests a problem with the settings or possibly electrical interference. I will see if I can get screen captures of my ESS configuration for comparison.



Yes, I have a dedicated 5vdc power supply to the ESS.

Here's a picture of a steel part I made before the electronics changeout.  Notice the very smooth machined edge.






A picture of the pocket in my test piece.  Notice the faceted finish.





This is the part I made last week that prompted this thread.  The exterior profile surface finish is "ugly".


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Dont know if you feel safe about running some one else's g code but if you do...  Stock is 3"x 3"x .5"  and X Y zero is center of stock and z zero is top of stock.  I used a .250" engraver for the chamfer, but any size would work as long as it comes to a point.



I'll see if I can find some time today to run the code.  If not then it will be a week or so.  Heading out of town in the morning.

Thanks for your input.  I really appreciate it.


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> Yes, finishing pass with a spring pass.  My drivers are set for microstepping.  I'll have to look at the specific setting.  Can't remember because it's been so long since I set them up.
> 
> I have some backlash.  About .002" in X and Y but as I said in my previous post the mild steel parts I made before the electronics upgrade had a very good surface finish.
> 
> The CAD model is Fusion 360 format.  I've attached it below.  Change the file type from .txt to .f3d and it should open.



For reference my X and Y axis drivers are set for 1000 microsteps.


----------



## Davd Flowers

The finish on the first steel part is pretty amazing, no faciting at all.
 On the aluminum one, i see some chatter marks as it comes past the ear. (Much better pics btw)  Ive had similar when my headstock gibs were loose.  It was more apparent on the backside of the part then the side facing you. Maybe try milling a square noting the axis on it and compair finishes on each side??  
  Not saying that its the problem your having, but making note of the axis on the part may help point in some direction.


----------



## TomS

TomS said:


> I'll see if I can find some time today to run the code.  If not then it will be a week or so.  Heading out of town in the morning.
> 
> Thanks for your input.  I really appreciate it.



I ran your code.  Results were the same as the parts I posted above.  What CAM program do you use?


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> The finish on the first steel part is pretty amazing, no faciting at all.
> On the aluminum one, i see some chatter marks as it comes past the ear. (Much better pics btw)  Ive had similar when my headstock gibs were loose.  It was more apparent on the backside of the part then the side facing you. Maybe try milling a square noting the axis on it and compair finishes on each side??
> Not saying that its the problem your having, but making note of the axis on the part may help point in some direction.



The faceting is the same all the way around the pocket/hole.  Looks to me it's not axis related.

My headstock gibs, if anything, are a bit on the tight side.  I haven't checked the X and Y gibs yet but it's on my to do list.


----------



## Davd Flowers

TomS said:


> I ran your code.  Results were the same as the parts I posted above.  What CAM program do you use?



I'm using sprut cam all though I have been tempted to switch to fusion 360, but I would have to learn thier cad as well.  I use alibre for cad and like it better than fusions.


----------



## Davd Flowers

TomS said:


> The faceting is the same all the way around the pocket/hole.  Looks to me it's not axis related.
> 
> My headstock gibs, if anything, are a bit on the tight side.  I haven't checked the X and Y gibs yet but it's on my to do list.



Im at a loss....I do get some faceting but its pretty minimal.  Ill have to see if I can get a pic uploaded for you to see.


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> Im at a loss....I do get some faceting but its pretty minimal.  Ill have to see if I can get a pic uploaded for you to see.



A comparison pic would be great.  

I've just about exhausted the possibility of a mechanical problem, except for checking the X and Y gib adjustment.  I have to believe it's an electronics issue because I was able to get good surface finishes before I installed the new stuff.  I'm hoping it's a simple fix.


----------



## Davd Flowers

View media item 96951


----------



## Davd Flowers

Trying to figure out how to post picture..  hard to see the faciting but if you look to the right side you can see some of it..


----------



## TomS

Davd Flowers said:


> View media item 96951



I can see the faceting.  Not that bad though.  Wish mine was that good.

If you don't want to learn Fusion CAD you can import files with .igs, .iges, .sat, .smt, .stp, and .step formats.  I also have read where you can import .dxf files too.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Are you running the ESS on a dedicated 5v power supply?
> 
> For your finishes to degrade after changing the electronics suggests a problem with the settings or possibly electrical interference. I will see if I can get screen captures of my ESS configuration for comparison.



Jay - I agree with you that it's a configuration issue or electrical interference.  That's the only thing that's changed since I ran parts with good surface finish.  Screen shots of your configuration would be great.  

Thanks


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> Jay - I agree with you that it's a configuration issue or electrical interference.  That's the only thing that's changed since I ran parts with good surface finish.  Screen shots of your configuration would be great.
> 
> Thanks


Will do. I should have some time tonight to do that. Between work and remodeling a bathroom there has been no time to play!


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Will do. I should have some time tonight to do that. Between work and remodeling a bathroom there has been no time to play!



Thanks.  Good luck with your remodel project.


----------



## jbolt

Tom PM me your email. I thought I had it but I'm not finding it. I had to take photos of the screen since my machine pc does not have a way to properly save screen captures. The files will reduce too much if I post them here to be useful.


----------



## jbolt

Another thought. I can get poor finishes if the coolant isn't filtered or the coolant spray isn't flushing the chips away quickly enough.


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> Another thought. I can get poor finishes if the coolant isn't filtered or the coolant spray isn't flushing the chips away quickly enough.



Don't think it's coolant because straight cuts in  X or Y leave a very smooth finish.  The rough surface finish appears on radius', angle cuts, and circular pockets.

I've read quiet a bit about improving surface finish and found a few tweaks for my CAM software and Mach3.  Tried them out today and no change.  Next I tightened the X and Y gibs until the motors stalled then backed off the gib adjuster until the motors would move the table and saddle to there extremes without missing steps.  Still no improvement in surface finish.  

I've got a Gates drive belt on order to replace the eBay import belt I'm running now.  You never know.  

I've heard that some people have had surface finish problems with angular contact bearings.  I don't understand that comment mainly because high end precision spindles almost universally use AC bearings.  On the other hand I could have a bad bearing.  If the new belt doesn't help the situation I'll start looking for a new lower bearing.


----------



## jbolt

TomS said:


> Don't think it's coolant because straight cuts in  X or Y leave a very smooth finish.  The rough surface finish appears on radius', angle cuts, and circular pockets.
> 
> I've read quiet a bit about improving surface finish and found a few tweaks for my CAM software and Mach3.  Tried them out today and no change.  Next I tightened the X and Y gibs until the motors stalled then backed off the gib adjuster until the motors would move the table and saddle to there extremes without missing steps.  Still no improvement in surface finish.
> 
> I've got a Gates drive belt on order to replace the eBay import belt I'm running now.  You never know.
> 
> I've heard that some people have had surface finish problems with angular contact bearings.  I don't understand that comment mainly because high end precision spindles almost universally use AC bearings.  On the other hand I could have a bad bearing.  If the new belt doesn't help the situation I'll start looking for a new lower bearing.



If the straight cuts are smooth I would not suspect the bearings. 

I'm not sure this is related to your problem but have you tinkered with the CV setting in Mach3? 

http://www.machsupport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Mach3_CVSettings_v2.pdf


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> If the straight cuts are smooth I would not suspect the bearings.
> 
> I'm not sure this is related to your problem but have you tinkered with the CV setting in Mach3?
> 
> http://www.machsupport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Mach3_CVSettings_v2.pdf



This is good info.  Thanks


----------



## TomS

I tried a multitude of Mach3 CV settings such as CV Distance Tolerance, bumped Look Ahead to 200 lines, made sure G100 Adaptive Nurbs CV was turned off, Shuttle Acceleration, changed speeds, feeds, cutter size, number of flutes, DOC, WOC, feed direction and spindle drive belt.  No change in surface finish.  Even went back and checked gib adjustment.  No improvement in surface finish.  I'm at a loss as to what's causing this.


----------



## TomS

With nothing to lose I played with my microstepping configuration to see if it had any effect on surface finish.  First test was a change from 1000 steps to 400 steps.  No change in surface finish.  I then went the other way and tried 5000 steps.  Again, no change.  Next test I turned off microstepping.  That was a mistake!  When I started Mach I couldn't get the X and Y axis to move.  The X and Y DRO's had an error message that would not go away.  The message was "-1.#IND".  Shut down Mach and configured my drivers for 1000 microsteps (my original setting).  Started Mach and the error message was still there.  After trying for 30 minutes to clear the error message I gave up and uninstalled Mach.  I keep a backup copy so it was a simple matter to reload and get my smoothstepper communicating.  So not a very productive day.

At this point I'm out of configuration options so I'm back to looking at mechanical contributors.  I did find that when I rotate the spindle by hand the clearance between the spindle shaft splines and the spindle drive hub splines gets loose and then gets snug.  Hmmm, looks like I have some runout but I'm not convinced it's the source of my problem, yet.  All this being said I disassembled the head and measured spindle shaft runout at the drive end.  I got .0025" TIR.  Checked the drive hub splines and got .0023" TIR.  I'm still not convinced this is the cause of my poor surface finish but at this point I'm looking at everything.  

I gave up for the day because it's 100+ now and working it's way to 112 deg F.  I'll reassemble it with the high spots opposite each other and see what happens.  If that doesn't change anything I'll try something else.

This is so frustrating!


----------



## jbolt

At this point I would suggest posting in the CNC forum for more exposure. You might consider posting over on cnczone as well.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## TomS

jbolt said:


> At this point I would suggest posting in the CNC forum for more exposure. You might consider posting over on cnczone as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk



Good idea.  I've got a couple more things to try out first.  One is the runout issue I discovered yesterday.  The other is a post on the Mach Support Forum that discusses having G90 and G91.1 on the same line or separate lines.  The Mach forum says they should be on separate lines.  My CAM program (CamBam) puts them on the same line.  I've got a writeup by RGSparber that addresses this issue.  Just have to read through it again to absorb and decipher all the computer geek language.


----------



## Uguessedit

JimDawson said:


> Apologies to TomS.  We are kind of hijacking this thread, but I think this a very pertinent question.
> 
> The most common and least cost conversion uses stepper motors that are either direct or timing belt coupled to the lead screws.  With the stepper motor powered down, it is possible to overpower the inherent mechanical (magnetic) resistance of the stepper motor manually.  It takes a fair amount of force to do so and the stepper motors cog due to their design.  Assuming that you are using a standard 200 step/rev motor and have a 5 pitch lead screw that is direct coupled, then the motor will cog at 0.001 inch increments.  Irritating at best on the X and Y axis.  On the Z axis, without decoupling the quill from the lead screw, it is impossible to use the quill manually.  Without providing a very convenient way of decoupling the stepper motors from the lead screws, manual operation is not very practical.  If I couldn't switch over in under a minute, I would find it very irritating.
> 
> Another and more costly option is to use DC servo motors.  These have almost no mechanical resistance when powered down.  The Z axis lead screw still must be decoupled from the quill to manually operate the quill.  The down side of this is the cost and the more complex control system.


I know this is an old post but the 1600oz hybrid servos he mentioned do not cog when powered down and will rotate freely. I have the same ones on my machines and went with a through shaft and installed hand cranks for the occasional manual use. The hybrids are excellent in that they can be locked when or fully released. Both benefits and if you try cranking it when it’s locked you will find you can’t. Just wanted to mention and clarify for those reading who are unaware.


----------



## 7milesup

Hi Ugessedit:
Could you provide a link to the hybrid servos that you use, or would recommend.  I am seriously considering making my PM833T a CNC machine and am just starting to gather information on how to do this. 

THank you.


----------

