# Cheap CNC Mill ?



## Cr2348455 (Mar 17, 2021)

Hi everyone 
Thinking about cnc for years now,  but the price always kept me away. 
Is there an inexpensive way to get a small hobbyist cnc mill ?   For steel and aluminum perhaps ?
All I know is I do not want to learn cad/cam. 
One with basic bottled g code programming. 
Thanks
J


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## Boswell (Mar 18, 2021)

I don't think you are likely to find what you are looking for. Not sure what your definition of "Inexpensive" is. If you are able and willing to do all of the work to convert a manual Mill to CNC then perhaps you can get one working for $500 to $1000 over the cost of the manual mill but more likely you will spend 2x - 3x of that.  Additionally, CAD and CAM go hand in hand with CNC. Unlike the 3d printer world, there are not online repositories of ready to run G-code that you can download.  There is something called conversational programing with higher end controllers but I have no idea how that works. I'm sure others will have something to add and possibly better outlook than my response. Good luck.


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## macardoso (Mar 18, 2021)

I second Boswell's response.

I have a G0704 mill converted to CNC. I consider this to be at the middle end of the hobby cnc market. It does well in aluminum and OK in steel. There are smaller machines out there but all of them leave you wanting more rigidity.

In today's dollars a G0704/PM25 costs about $1800. Add, at a minimum, another $1000 for CNC software, motors, motor drives, cabling, and some extremely basic tooling. 

At this point, I have probably $3k into CNC controls on my machine although I have done paid work with it and I would consider this an above average cost for the machine.

If you are willing to go with a router, you'll get into the market much cheaper, although you'd be machining mostly wood and plastic. Maybe some aluminum and probably not steel.

CAD/CAM is the basis of all of this CNC stuff. I think you just need to get into the mentality that you will need to learn it and learn to have fun with it. 

Not trying to discourage in the least, in fact we would love to see you get into CNC, but trying to set expectations.


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## markba633csi (Mar 18, 2021)

I think you need to learn at least CAD since you need to generate toolpaths.  I think LinuxCNC will do simple tool moves but not complex designs without some type of CAD package
-Mark


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## Cr2348455 (Mar 18, 2021)

Thank you all for your honest information. 
In around 2010 , I wanted to get a feel for cad/cam
software.   Solidworks seemed to be one of the best, but out of my budget. 
I made the mistake of buying BobCad, worst mistake I ever made with a software purchase. 
I have a Grizzly mill,  but not interested in turning it into a cnc machine. 
Conversational cnc seemed like there were some canned g code programs for some basic functions. 
My budget for cnc mill and software is about 
$5-$6000.
Thanks to you all 
J


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## ArmyDoc (Mar 18, 2021)

You can find used CNC machines in the $7k range.  They are older machines, but still functional.  For example, I have seen TRAK machines for ~ $7k, and they have conversational milling.  The problem with these machines is that if they go down, it can be expensive to bring them back to life.

If your are wanting strictly 2D (x and y only), as has been mentioned, there are CNC routers, some of which can handle aluminum, for $4-5k.


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## Cr2348455 (Mar 18, 2021)

Thanks
Seems like I may just have to accept that cnc milling is still out of my budget.
I would not be able to afford repairs on a used cnc mill. 
J


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## DavidR8 (Mar 18, 2021)

Not sure if it would suit your needs but I'm thinking about building a PrintNC CNC router. 





						Home - ThreeDesign - Home of the PrintNC
					

Low cost, High-Performance Steel Frame, Ball Screw & Linear Rail CNC Have questions and want fast community-driven answers? Click here to join the Discord chat! Video Courtesy of ProjectssByBrian 100% Free and Open Source, the PrintNC is the next generation of high performance, affordable CNC...




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## DAT510 (Mar 18, 2021)

A couple thoughts.....
Mach3 and Mach4 have  add on packages that have "wizards" for basic cnc functions.  It is possible to string together the Gcode from them to make "continuous" program vs piece meal.  

You mentioned Solidworks.....   An EAA membership includes a Solidworks License as part of it's $40/yr membership fee.

If you just want to learn CNC.... though not as capable as a mill, have you considered possibly a CNC router?  Much cheaper, but something to learn on.  One of the Engineers in my office brought his Shapeoko CNC router in for a project we were doing.  It was surprisingly capable for what we asked it to do.  We cut AL and Polycarbonate.  If you slowed it down and limited your depth of cut, it could probably do steel.


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## Cr2348455 (Mar 18, 2021)

If I were going for cnc,  I would want to mill steel as well as aluminum. 
I bought a manual Legacy router sled , used it a few times, just to lazy to think about all the setup. 
If I had the cash, I like Tormach. 
That said, I would like something much smaller but with ability to mill in 3 axis. 
thanks to all


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## macardoso (Mar 18, 2021)

Cr2348455 said:


> If I were going for cnc,  I would want to mill steel as well as aluminum.
> I bought a manual Legacy router sled , used it a few times, just to lazy to think about all the setup.
> If I had the cash, I like Tormach.
> That said, I would like something much smaller but with ability to mill in 3 axis.
> thanks to all



I recommend a conversion of a G0704, PM25, or ideally a PM-940M. More rigidity and cost at each tier there. You should be able to keep the machine and CNC conversion under your $6k budget with moderate ease. The PM-940M will leave less room for tooling purchase.


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## RJSakowski (Mar 18, 2021)

G code is a fairly simple language, at least for rudimentary programs and one can create G code programs with a simple text processor like Wordpad.  This will enable one to cut simple arcs, move in straight lines, drill patterned holes. etc.  A 2D CAD package will facilitate creation of the programs.  A 3D modeling program, along with a CAM program will permit creating complex shapes in two or three dimensions.  A CAM program alone can import 3rd person solid models and ceate G code to make copies.

As to the actual hardware, there are basically three ways to go; convert a manual machine to CNC, buy a used CNC, or buy a new CNC.  What your expectations regarding performance will govern the decistion about how much machine is needed.  You can buy several new machines like the Sherline for around $2K bit they are light duty.  A more substantial machine would be the Tormach PCNC440starting at around $5K or the  PCNC770 for $8K.  Adding bells and whistles can triple those prices.  The PCNC1100 is the next step up  but you are getting into a industrial machine price range.

I chose the 770 nine years ago.  The 440 wasn't available yet but I still would have gone the 770 route anyway.  The package that I chose was around $14K at the time, probably closer to $16K now.   A PCNC1100 package would have added another $2K but the deciding factor was available space.


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## Cadillac STS (Mar 18, 2021)

Here is something that will generate G-Code for you with just inputting the sizes and spaces you want.  You can do many things without learning a full CAD/CAM program.






						Newfangled Solutions  Mill Wizard
					






					www.machsupport.com
				




You can get what you are looking for at your budget.  

Avoid small mills like Sherline and Taig as too small and  lightweight (Your decision but be sure to see one of those in person before buying.)


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## Cr2348455 (Mar 18, 2021)

Thanks for all your generous information. 
I have a Sherline 2000 mill,  and it is just too small. 
That is why I got the almost 1000 lb Grizzly mill. 
J


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## johneezreno (Mar 25, 2021)

I have a Brother TC-225 with a conversational control. I absolutely hate it. My background is FADAL, HAAS, and some conversion machines with FAGOR. G-Code. Oh how I love it. Anywho, So because of the early 90s age of the machine I'm unable to find a post processor for this beast. So throw out the cad/cam and must converse with the beast. It's reference work plane is the bottom of the part. The tool plane is based off of a 3" block from the table and you basically program it by telling it what to do last first. Picked it up for 5k used. I do on the other hand like the rigid tap feature. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Cr2348455 (Mar 26, 2021)

Nice machine !  How is the atc ?


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## Chipper5783 (Mar 26, 2021)

cr234 - what you want to do is possible.  I picked up a Bridgeport VMC 1000 for $5000 CAD, it needed a bit of work, but not too much just to make chips (beware that machining is an endless way to suck a little more money, one tool at a time).  There are good post processors for my machine, DX32 - but I have simply stuck with coding directly. I appreciate that the real power is in doing the solid model and programming too paths, but as a manual machining guy for many years, pretending it is a manual machine, except instead of cranking a handle, I just send a line of code - is really awesome.  I am steadily building ever more involved programs.  Even though I'm a total beginner, it is not difficult to get to the point that I'm doing things that would be much harder to do on one of the manual milling machines. For example I made some two piece jaws for a big 3J chuck - I know it is possible to generate a good approximation of the scroll teeth on the back of the jaw using a manual mill, but it is a lot of work.  On a CNC it is two lines of code to create the shape, then repeated 8 times with the origin translated - so I made two full sets of the jaws.

Getting an old industrial machine (this one I got is a 1998) means there is lots of capability, heavy, rigid, plenty of power, full enclosure, flood coolant, tool changer, 4 axis.  It does take up quite a bit of floor space, but then you didn't say that was a problem and it just fits in with the capability of my residential electrical supply.  You also didn't say that power was a problem (you can expect that you will need a good 3 phase system).  So I suggest you start looking around, learn what you local used market is like (it took me about 3 years to find this VMC - I looked at quite a few and passed them by, but I learnt from every one of them).

Be patient, start looking.  What you are thinking of really is out there.


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## Cr2348455 (Mar 26, 2021)

Thank You Chipper,
I do appreciate your great advice.  I have a few machines that are 3 phase,  so I do already have a rotary phase converter. 
C


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## Chipper5783 (Mar 26, 2021)

The rotary phase converter may be okay.  I ran a Willett Add-a-Phase (rotary) for about 35 years for my first several machines (including the 575 ones via a transformer) - never had an issue.  When I got serious about the VMC, I had a few recommendations that powering the CNC of that vintage off an RPC was a bad idea.  The idea being that if the power quality issues inherent to an RPC were to degrade any of the electronics - that may contribute failure.  Certain critical components are not practically repairable - it is easy to gobble up $20K in a repair, the machine after the repair would still not be worth $10K (prior to the repair it is just scrap metal).  That advise gave me the excuse to get a PhasePerfect - and it is awesome (all the machines appreciate the upgrade).  The PP cost me as much as the whole CNC machine plus the cost of a commercial mover (the seller insisted on my using a commercial mover when in his facility).

The point being that you should do your research on what you need for power.  Some machines will accept a single phase input, some will likely be fine on the RPC, others may need something better.


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## Cr2348455 (Mar 26, 2021)

Thank you
I will heed your advice.  I need a whole bunch more learning to do before I sink a dime.


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## B2 (Mar 28, 2021)

Hi J,

I just noticed your thread and that there was a comment about converting the PM 940M to CNC.  If you decide to go that route you may want to look at    https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-pm-940v.87161/   thread.    Where ptrotter has been making the conversion.  He essentially has completed the conversion and it sounds like he pretty much got a good job and machine.   We have become friends as we try to help each other out.  He may have gone a little over board at the beginning by stripping the machine of all of its paint etc, but it does look nice now.  

I purchased one of the last PM 940M CNC VS machines that PM sold and have used it over the last couple of years.  I do not machine often, but wanted to get started.  Since, I live in Pittsburgh I thought it would be good to purchase locally, and have found the folks to be very helpful.  More recently, I upgraded my old SB lathe by purchasing a PM 1440GT lathe from PM and one of these days I will post my info on its variable speed/VFD conversion.  

I think all of these inexpensive Mills have their own set of problems.  The 940M is no exception.  I am still learning, but my feeling after talking to ptrotter about some of my problems I am wondering about the consistency of quality between machines.  His seems to be more mechanically accurate than mine.   Maybe it is just luck or maybe there was a significant difference between the manual vs CNC version.  While the basic machines are similar they are not made quite the same.    It is a heavy machine and I think the head with the 1.5KW motor is both  good and bad.  Good for heavy cutting, bad for control and positioning.  I ask Trotter to weight his while he had it apart and he found it to be about 275#s, which is similar to what I had estimated.    I have not rebuilt the machine like others have done.  After I remounted the control box on the side of the column rather than the back etc, mine is still pretty much just like it came.  Out of the box, I will say the Taiwanese lathe seems to be a much better built machine than the Chinese Mill.

Anyway, if you decide you might want to go the PM940M conversion route and you want info or just to talk about it maybe I can help. I am sure that I will learn some things as well. By the way, I am not a machinist, the 940M is really the first mill I have owned or even operated, so I am still learning.  I am a scientist by education and practice, but am now, mostly, retired. 

I see you live in Freeport, NY.  While I have lived in Pittsburgh for many years, I spent many years working for E. K. Research Labs. in Rochester.  I last lived in Webster on the lake.  While I do not miss the weather, I do miss the lake view!

Dave


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## Cr2348455 (Mar 28, 2021)

Thank you Dave,  for your advice.   
I also am still very much in the learning stage.   I have such a limited budget,  it may be a while till I have all the funds necessary for such a purchase. 
I also need to sell a few machines to create more space in the basement workshop. 
The basement has a low ceiling in places, which prohibited me from getting a BP,  hence the g0755 was purchased awhile back. 
J


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