# How Do You Decide? - Asian or American Tool



## Phil3 (Dec 29, 2011)

As a newbie to metalworking, I am having to buy plenty of tooling, mostly from Enco.  It is astounding the difference in price between 'import" and "USA" products.  Like everyone else I am sure, I wish my dollars to obtain the right value.  But am unsure as to where I can go "cheap" and where I should not.  

I figured a quality chuck was worth it, and opted for a Bison, even though that was about 3X the cost of the Asian model.  I also purchased non-Asian drill bits, figuring a cheap set of those would not be worth the potential trouble.  But, bought a cheap mill hold down kit since there is no real precision here.  But what about a micrometer, calipers, dial and test indicators, and other measuring instruments?  Mitutoyo and Starrett are far, far more costly than imports, but what I am getting if a cheap measuring instrument measures consistently?  

What general areas do you feel safe in buying cheaper vs expensive, and what areas do you feel it is important to buy high end?  Things I need now are reamers, hole transfer set, 1" - 2" micrometer, height gauge (big price range here), Noga type mag base and arm (Noga and less costly imitations available), hole gauge set (another big range in price), angle plates, V-blocks. etc.

Thanks,

- Phil


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## Starlight Tools (Dec 29, 2011)

There is a definite difference in quality of Asian products!  There are factories in China that can and do turn out top level products, at a price of course.  Japan, now has one of the highest quality products available, but watch out for "Chinese made products tagged as Japanese" as they are doing the same stunts as many North American companies. Taiwan is generally a better bet for quality over mainland China, but then they have factories that can and do make junk as well.  India has some very good factories, many started and trained by the British during the colonization days but then they have some real "winners".  Poland and Eastern Europe seems to be a "hot spot" of Quality machine tool accessories.  The US is a mixture of really good and junk, just like any other country.

I try to get the best quality I can for the money available, I just purchased a 5C collet Chuck, D1-4 Mounting, Bison brand made in Poland.  Looks to be a very nice piece of equipment.  I have the Bison 3" bearing centre chuck, and I have been very happy with it.

I have US made products, General brand to give an example, that are worse than any of the Chinese tools that I have or have used.  

My lathe and Mill are both Taiwan made, and were both purchased with the knowledge that a comparable, or at least "comparably sized" machine from China was between 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of the Taiwan machine, but then I wanted to get a machine that would last me for the rest of my life, as I have no reason to upgrade beyond what I have now, they are sized for the projects that I take on, and I doubt I will ever need to take on larger projects.  As the service manager for the company I purchased my machines from confirmed, that even though the Chinese versions of the machines they sell, come from the better factories, they are still "entry level" machines and definitely not the same quality as the Taiwan factories are producing.

When and where possible I will purchase "brand name" products that have a reputation for good quality.  North American made if possible, but will look to better quality imports when not.

I do not care where an item is made, if it is junk, it is not worth anything at all!  The bitterness of wasting money on a piece of crap lasts long after it is trashed!

Overall, if you buy your products from a reputable dealer and get the better grade out of the good, better, best catagories while avoiding the "bargain basement, it should have never been made in the first place" catagories you should not be steered wrong.

Walter


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## pdentrem (Dec 29, 2011)

What Walter says.
I try to get best that I can afford with a view of future use. I too have bought junk and regretted it, now I am a little bit smarter and step pass the cheaper stuff automatically and also I am in better shape money wise then years ago, that helps too.


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## Davo J (Dec 29, 2011)

I sounds like you have your head screwed on with what to buy Chinese etc. With micrometers I have both Chinese and Mitutoyo, and I use the Chinese ones for general work so if I drop them they are cheap to replace. With dial indicators and test indicators I have the same thing, and only bring out the Mitutoyo, Best test, Girod test etc when really needed.
Just be careful with Starrett these days, because from what I have read it's all coming out of China now.

Dave


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## Davo J (Dec 30, 2011)

Sorry about that and misleading anyone, I think it was on PM forum where a few guys where discussing some Starrett products (I think one was a micrometer but not 100% sure) and they returned it because of quality issues and it was made in china.

I would love to tour a factory like that myself.

Dave


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## Hawkeye (Dec 30, 2011)

Keep in mind that tools and tooling are built for a purpose more than for a price. A tap that is made for production work will cut better, break less and last longer than one made for the weekend warrior retail market. The production-built products will naturally cost more than the retail stuff.

One problem we face at the hobby level is limited access to the good stuff. We can't just walk in to a store on the weekend and get the good stuff. We usually have to take time off work to go to any local outlets or order off the internet.

When we do get our hands on good tooling, it is worth it. It just doesn't fit into the "but I want it today" thinking.


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## GK1918 (Dec 31, 2011)

whew, Im glad my Starrett stuff is pre 1930.


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## Tony Wells (Dec 31, 2011)

I have never cared for for Starrett electronics. I have only one piece that has proven reliable. It's an analog amplified test indicator. All the mechanical instruments I own that are Starrett are top notch. I haven't bought anything in a few years from them, so I guess I can't speak to their current quality, but they do have a strong reputation to protect, and I don't doubt that they do protect it.

Mit on the other hand, seems to have pretty good electronics. Just have to keep batteries in them. :biggrin:


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## Mid Day Machining (Jan 12, 2012)

I ran into a situation a few years ago where I needed a 4 to 5 inch micrometer, I checked out a Mitutoyo, and it was almost $400.00. I checked on a Chinese mic, and learned I could buy a whole set of 1 to 6 inch micrometers for $109.00.

I thought, for as often as I am going to need a 4 to 5 inch, the Chinese brand will do just fine. AND, if I needed a set of micrometers for a quality survey from a potential customer, the Chinese stuff would work for that as well.

I even bought a CNC milling machine that is made in China. Let me tell you, it's one of the best machines I have ever owned. I bought a Tormach PCNC1100 last July.


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## Tony Wells (Jan 12, 2012)

I have to tell you, Steve, that as a QA manager, if I see Chinese instruments used in the shop, it's not such a big deal, but if I see them used in the Inspection Department, I don't like it. Maybe it's personal prejudice, or a mix with real life experience, but it tells me something during an Audit (and I've done more than a few): That company is trying to run on a shoestring and is willing to cut corners where quality is concerned. That's something that is not acceptable. The entire success of a shop in the commercial world is based on timely delivery of parts that meet requirements at a fair price. You can produce parts on schedule, and at a fair price....but with quality determined by less than premium instruments, you are bound to get a failure now and then because of it. That's something that receiving inspection won't tolerate. And it makes the buyer look bad, buying from a shop that has too many rejects will get him/her in hot water. You can be a little late now and then, and even not the cheapest all the time, but it is a monumental fail if you can't get the parts right. And the appearance that you are trying to "cheap by" to the auditors will do more than raise eyebrows, although it will never be said. It's just one of those things that gives, or fails to give the auditor a comfortable feeling about the company's own evaluation of their QC/Inspection department.


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## Starlight Tools (Jan 12, 2012)

Ed

I would go with Jeff at tools4cheap for a set of ER40 Collets

Available with or without a tool holder, I went with R8 and then ordered the MT2 and MT3 holders as well.

http://www.tools4cheap.net/proddetail.php?prod=er40

Only $120.00 for the set without the holder.

Walter


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## Tom Griffin (Jan 13, 2012)

With the exception of cutting tools, I go the cheapest route possible (Chinese) on any shop item that tends to get beat, lost or destroyed during regular use. That includes things like parallels, pin gauges, shop grade gauge blocks, and consumable items like soft jaws for the vise, or expanding collets. Everything else is new or used American made. The one big exception is my vertical mill. When I bought it, Bridgeport had just been acquired by Textron and they were producing absolute junk. I decided on the Taiwanese (technically not mainland China) made DoAll because I had heard from several people that it was a well made machine. They were right; it's served me well for many years. Oh, and my digital calipers are Mitutoyo, in my opinion no one makes a better pair.

With cutting tools, I generally buy name brand (as Paddy suggested) American, European or Japanese. They cost about double the import stuff, but the improved geometry and metallurgy pays off in better performance and it lasts MUCH longer. In the end it's the way to go. The only way I would recommend the Chinese made stuff is for someone early in the learning curve who is going to be breaking and burning up cutters for a while until they get the hang of the whole cutting speed thing.

Tom


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## GK1918 (Jan 14, 2012)

All good replys, but i will add all you have to do is to retire and thats how deep the pockets are.  Going from $700
a week to $700 a month for all that.  And then this shop is seasonable meaning usually bushings shafts etc for
farm stuff , landscapers boat shafting tapering and threading.  So for years I lived with this lantern even made a 
new one.  eeks  so off the deep I got the whole thing from Wholesale tool for 150 bucks.  I knew what it is before
I bought it, but anything is better than I had.  Turns out to be 100% improvement way more ridged than what I had
so, I simply applied a yellow "USE CAUTION" sticker where it says made in China.  
                                       " made in usa"
whats the man say quote "made by a barefooted kid with a dirt floor out of Shlitz beer cans" maybe true, what do we
make?  Refrased  here (big name plants)  gone, gone, burnt down section 10 housing.  This lites me, my area was
Silver City capitol, knitting mill capitol, Paragon Gear works Raytheon, Anderson Aircraft, NJ Rubber, Firestone,
tannerys, bleaches,crystal glass mfg. die plants, right here local-they all went over the pond and burnt.  I wrote this
somewhere, but it all started in 1941 the sleeping giant, step by step equils payback. My old man always said, take
down a big man with his pocket .   I have vented      Still to figure out how brick plants of the turn burn.  Oh I just
heard on tv evacuating a school house for a bead of mercury.  We use to flip that stuff at each other in science
class.  Trouble ya got into was the school buget to buy more. thats whats it all about


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