# Insert Tool Holders



## Rifleman1384 (Jul 31, 2020)

Sorry, If anyone feels this is in the wrong place but since I'm referring to the PM 1440GT here goes. I am looking at tooling, I have already ordered the Dorian BXA QCTP and several tool holders. 

Here is my question, the insert holders come in different lengths, no big deal as far as I'm concerned, The insert tool holders are also in different thicknesses 1/2, 5/8, 3/4 and 1 inch. The QCTP holders will hold 5/8 thru 1 inch. So does it really matter which one I get, let's say one can find one at a cost savings on Ebay but it's 1 inch is that a deal breaker on a machine this size or could I just set it up in the Bridgeport and take some off.

Looking at the Kennametal, ICAR, SECO and Carmex brands, if any of these I need to stay away from your comments and guidance would be much appreciated, Thanks!

Steve


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## ErichKeane (Jul 31, 2020)

BXA tool holders only hold up to 5/8 based on the dimensions here: https://www.shars.com/quick-change-tool-post-set-wedge-type-222-bxa

You CAN take material off of some of the holders, but you might find on some of them you might need to leave the 'insert' part alone (that is, only mill down the shank 1/2).

That said, as unsolicited advice, You might find getting a box of 1/2" or 5/8" HSS and grind your own bits.  HSS ends up being way cheaper in the long run AND gives a way better finish in my experience.  You have to turn your RPM down a bit to cut with it (that is, F&S is a little less), but unless you're a production shop you likely won't notice.


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## Dan_S (Jul 31, 2020)

Don't buy individual tools they will cost you more in the long run. Unless you plan on setting up a production shop you won't see any real benefit from the high end brand holders.

what you want to do is but a set that uses all the same size and shape of insert. Good inserts are what makes the real difference, and good inserts are not cheap. Not to mention over the long haul you will spend far more on inserts than you will the holders. I've probably spent like $2k on inserts.

For example I have 2 of these sets i purchased from Grizzly. One has inserts for steel, the other for aluminum. One set is almost 14 years old, and the other is 7, and the are as good as the day i purchased them.




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						Grizzly 777104 Glanze Turning Tool Set, 1/2-Inch - Multitools - Amazon.com
					

Grizzly 777104 Glanze Turning Tool Set, 1/2-Inch - Multitools - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com
				




you can get a 16mm (~5/8) set from chronos in the uk.








						Set of 16 mm Glanze Indexable Turning Tools with Larger CCMT09 Insert SORRY OUT OF STOCK - Chronos Engineering Supplies
					

Set of 16 mm Glanze Indexable Turning Tools with Larger CCMT09 Insert SORRY OUT OF STOCK from Chronos Engineering Supplies. Free UK delivery and great worldwide rates.




					www.chronos.ltd.uk
				




They are made by Glanze tools in India.




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						Mini Turning Tool Sets (ccmt) (set of 7 tools)
					





					www.glanze.com
				





Like @ErichKeane said I'd recommend you pick up some HSS and cobalt blanks as well. I'd recommend 1/4" 3/8" and 1/2", and i'd get more 3/8" than anything else, as they are kind of the sweet spot in my opinion unless you needs to really hog off material or a lot of stick out. not to mention grinding a 1/2" blank can take a good deal of time.


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## mksj (Jul 31, 2020)

BXA Holders take a standard size 5/8" tooling, there are oversized holders that will take up to 3/4",  few may go larger. The bigger issue is two fold, even if you cut down the insert holder it will leave the insert height above the center line of the spindle with not enough adjustment to compensate. The second factor is the larger insert/holder size you will have more interference problems when doing smaller work and with a live center. Better to standardize with 5/8" holders and inserts. So my go to insert is a CCMT/CCGT 32.51 which fits in 5/8 or 3/4" holders for turning and also 1/2-1" boring bars. I use an oversized 3/4"shank holder for my cutoff and knurling tools. But be mind full of the center height and the adjustment range. A 1" holder is way too big.

I have all carbide insert holders, you can get decent sets for reasonable price although all mine are Kennametal, Seco, Iscar, etc. which I picked up at very reasonable pricing. Inserts are cheap, and last a long time.


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## ErichKeane (Jul 31, 2020)

Dan_S said:


> Like @ErichKeane said I'd recommend you pick up some HSS and cobalt blanks as well. I'd recommend 1/4" 3/8" and 1/2", and i'd get more 3/8" than anything else, as they are kind of the sweet spot in my opinion unless you needs to really hog off material or a lot of stick out. not to mention grinding a 1/2" blank can take a good deal of time.



I've got a bit of a bigger lathe (16" with CA tool holders) and picked up a bunch of 1" and 3/8" HSS (plus a 1/2" premade kit).  I find the 3/8 too small, and the 1" takes to grind   My chinesium pre-ground 1/2" kit has had the original grinds gone for a while and I've been using those!


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## wrmiller (Jul 31, 2020)

I have PM's 5/8" turning and boring kits. I like the idea of one size insert. I have a couple of hss cutters, but only use them for severe interrupted cuts.


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## Dan_S (Jul 31, 2020)

Here's an example why you want some HSS/Cobalt blanks. This is a 1/4 blank and I would have hated to grind this out of anything bigger.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 31, 2020)

I'm going to take some of the advice above one step further. I have fully tooled my lathe from eBay and Aliexpress. I'm talking turning, boring, external threading and internal threading. I shop price, and have consistently bought the cheapest most economical tools I could find.  NONE of it has been crap, they have all been good quality tools in every respect. The same goes for the inserts. For the price of one or two name brand tools you can have everything you could imagine you might need. Start with a set like this (16mm/5/8 shanks) just to get your feet wet. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957073997.html?


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## shooter123456 (Jul 31, 2020)

In my experience, the insert holders don't make a huge difference.  I have had success using homemade insert holders out of aluminum using a philips head screw from the hardware store.  Even the super cheap holders I have gotten have held up just fine to several years of use.  

I also haven't found too much difference in QCTP holders.  I haven't tried any of the expensive name brand ones though, so maybe those are better and I just don't know.  The inexpensive $15-20 ones have done just fine for me.

What does make a difference though is the actual inserts.  It can be a little bit hard to tell just by looking at them, but there is a real difference between the $.25-$.75 inserts and the $15-$20 inserts (thats cents and dollars there).  

Just to give you an idea of what the differences are, here is a look at an inexpensive import insert under a microscope.  This insert was brand spanking new.  You can see the cutting edge is already chipped and it is jagged.  This one was probably about $1.  





This one was a name brand insert that was about $20.  Also brand new.





An important thing to consider though is that you might be happy with the cheap insert.  It certainly gets the job done, surface finish just suffers a bit and I am betting the cutting edge doesn't last nearly as long.


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## ddickey (Jul 31, 2020)

As long as there is enough adjustment it really won't matter. I also have a few Dorian BXA size, it is nice that they fit 1" tools but the thickness (dimension A) is a little thin. If you look at the CXA size they also hold a 1" tool but is a bit thicker by 1/16".


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## ahazi (Aug 1, 2020)

shooter123456 said:


> What does make a difference though is the actual inserts.  It can be a little bit hard to tell just by looking at them, but there is a real difference between the $.25-$.75 inserts and the $15-$20 inserts (thats cents and dollars there).
> 
> Just to give you an idea of what the differences are, here is a look at an inexpensive import insert under a microscope.  This insert was brand spanking new.  You can see the cutting edge is already chipped and it is jagged.  This one was probably about $1.
> 
> ...


Looks like you are comparing a molded insert to a grounded (polished) insert. These are very different and so is the price. 

A good place to start in my little experience is the BXA set from QMT https://www.precisionmatthews.com/s...ool-set-sized-for-bxa-quick-change-tool-post/ it comes with a good selection of tools and the quality seems decent. The grounded inserts for aluminium will also give a great surface with lighter cuts even on the harder to machine HR steel, CR 1018 etc.

Ariel


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## davidpbest (Aug 1, 2020)

The Dorian BXA size tool holders will take >3/4" shank tools, but do so by lowering the bottom ledge that registers the tool in the holder. To run 5/8" or 1/2" shank tools in the Dorian holders, you have to put a spacer under the tool. The Aloris BXA tool holders will take 1/2" and 5/8" shanks (maximum). In contrast, the BXA holders Matt at QMT sells, as well as the BXA size tool holders from All Industrial Tool supply ($15 each) or CDCO ($12) will also take a 3/4" shank tool, but accommodates them with different geometry that doesn't require a spacer under 1/2" and 5/8" shank tools. Here is a visual comparison of the three:







I don't seen enough difference in the brand name (Aloris or Dorian) versions to warrant the additional cost for the conventional square shank tool holder. At worst you replace the socket head screws with better quality versions.

Putting a riser-block under the Dorian tool post is increasing the chance for the tool holder to pivot under load IMO - especially with a 3/4" tool, or heavy knurling and parting-off.


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## Rifleman1384 (Aug 1, 2020)

Thank You everyone for your valuable insight and recommendations. It's much appreciated. Steve


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## shooter123456 (Aug 3, 2020)

ahazi said:


> Looks like you are comparing a molded insert to a grounded (polished) insert. These are very different and so is the price.


Both are supposedly polished inserts for aluminum.  



ahazi said:


> The grounded inserts for aluminium will also give a great surface with lighter cuts even on the harder to machine HR steel, CR 1018 etc.


I actually have some of those and the inserts look good under the microscope.

Aluminum ones:





Steel ones:


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## Mitch Alsup (Aug 6, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> I'm going to take some of the advice above one step further. I have fully tooled my lathe from eBay and Aliexpress.



Check--so did I, and also my mill



> I'm talking turning, boring, external threading and internal threading. I shop price, and have consistently bought the cheapest most economical tools I could find.  NONE of it has been crap, they have all been good quality tools in every respect. The same goes for the inserts. For the price of one or two name brand tools you can have everything you could imagine you might need. Start with a set like this (16mm/5/8 shanks) just to get your feet wet. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957073997.html?



Note when you buy a set of tool holders, buy at least one box of tips for each holder. {You will thank me later...}


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## Rifleman1384 (Aug 6, 2020)

Mitch, Thanking you now for your help and suggestions.


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## Larry$ (Aug 6, 2020)

I've got PM originally came with the lathe and mostly Shars tool holders for the rest. BAX on a 1440 lathe. All work well. I have some import inserts but no Kennametal or = so can't compare. I chipped a couple for the cheap inserts on interupted cuts, my fault. I've also reground them when dull using my Shars tool grinder. They seem to work fine.  I got a couple of cheap deals on big tools that required 3/4" tool holders and have used them on the BAX that are sold with 3/4" slots. So far OK. 

Side note. I recently took apart the tool post that came on the lathe. It was nicely made inside, had a couple of minor burs and considerable greasy gunk (& chips) from using cutting oil.


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## Weldingrod1 (Aug 6, 2020)

I highly reccomend getting the BXA holder that takes inserts directly; I use it all the time!!! It gets the cutting load as close as possible to the toolpost. They are available pretty cheaply.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Dan_S (Aug 7, 2020)

I forgot I had this, but this is the 1/2" glanze holders I posted earlier with using these Sandvik finishing inserts.





						Sandvik Coromant CoroTurn 107 Carbide Turning Insert, CCMT, 80 Degree Diamond, PF Chipbreaker, GC1515 Grade, Multi-Layer Coating, CCMT 2(1.5)1-PF, 1/4" iC, 0.0157" Corner Radius (Pack of 10): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

Sandvik Coromant CoroTurn 107 Carbide Turning Insert, CCMT, 80 Degree Diamond, PF Chipbreaker, GC1515 Grade, Multi-Layer Coating, CCMT 2(1.5)1-PF, 1/4" iC, 0.0157" Corner Radius (Pack of 10): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				




The steel is 1144 stressproof, and each pass is 0.100" of the radius or 0.200" of the diameter. The lathe is my little HF 8x14.


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