# Dorian "First Time Buyer" QCTP and Holder set - beware!



## Alan H. (May 28, 2017)

Six months ago I started acquiring my metal working upgrades and new equipment.  As part of that, I decided to buy a Dorian QCTP for my new PM1340.

I ordered a BXA size 14 piece Dorian "First Time Buyer Package".  From my research here and elsewhere, I had discovered that there were sometimes some fit issues.  So I called Dorian before I bought the package to get assurances that if there were any fit issues that they would help me.  Getting a positive response from Dorian, I ordered the package with confidence and laid out a significant amount of money to get it.  

The cutoff tool in the package is evidently a newer design and it didn't fit the PM1340 lathe properly.  It would not adjust high enough to get on the center line of the cut.  The adjuster screw would bottom out on the holder before it would elevate the holder high enough for a proper fit. 

I called Dorian to get the help they had promised to discover that they weren't willing to help at all.  They quickly said, "You can counter-bore the land for the adjuster."   And then told me that they were glad they could help me and to have a good day!   When I then asked that they replace it with a holder that didn't need to be modified by me to work, they told me that they couldn't do that.  BTW, they also admitted in the conversation that they knew that there were issues with the "newer" design.  

I finally "fixed" it by milling a slot on the top of the holder so it will elevate to the center line of cut.  Here's a photo to document the fix.  Not a lot of work of course but I paid a premium price and it should have fit out of the box.  BTW,  the tool is marginal at best and I suspect they are getting rid of stock by including it in the FTB set grab bag.  I have since bought an Aloris holder and cutoff.  

I posted this on another thread recently, but wanted to give this saga a stand alone thread with specifics to help others who may be on this journey.   If I had it to do over again, I buy only the Dorian QCTP or get more serious about other alternatives such as an Aloris.  I have found the Dorian First Time Buyers Set to be less than worthwhile from a content and cost standpoint.

Obviously I have the opinion that Dorian is not trustworthy.


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## woodtickgreg (May 28, 2017)

Thanks for the heads up! With that lack of customer service I would never buy a product from them. I guess they aren't what they used to be and are now just taking customers money and riding on their past reputation.


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## Alan H. (May 28, 2017)

To be fair, I think their QCTP gets very high marks and I personally like it.  

I do not like their customer service or their First Time Buyer Set "grab bag" approach.


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## woodtickgreg (May 28, 2017)

Even if it is high quality, for their high prices that they ask they should offer better customer service. And for that reason I would buy elsewhere.


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## Bob Korves (May 28, 2017)

The old saying "You get what you pay for" is proven wrong yet again...


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## mikey (May 28, 2017)

Wow, I'm disappointed that Dorian responded that way. I wonder, though, if this is the way Dorian treats all their customers or if you got a bozo on the phone when you called. I know some customer service people can be really non-helpful and when that happens, I ask to speak to the customer service manager and restate my request. If that fails and it means enough to me, I ask for their name and then the name and email address of the President of the company and then I follow through and email the guy to report my experience. Invariably, I get a response and usually the desired outcome. 

In today's economic environment, a company cannot afford to antagonize their customers. This is especially true of they have a tough competitor, like Aloris. I bet if the President of Dorian found out that customer service failed to address a customer concern he would have a serious discussion with the manager of that department. By notifying the President, you're actually helping Dorian become a better company and I would consider it.


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## woodtickgreg (May 28, 2017)

My feeling is I shouldn't have to go through all of that after spending some serious money on there product. There are far too many other companies that would do what it takes to resolve the issue without making you jump through hoops. And if they are aware of a problem as stated they should not even be selling it, jmo.


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## mikey (May 28, 2017)

woodtickgreg said:


> My feeling is I shouldn't have to go through all of that after spending some serious money on there product. There are far too many other companies that would do what it takes to resolve the issue without making you jump through hoops. And if they are aware of a problem as stated they should not even be selling it, jmo.



Oh, I quite agree that you shouldn't have to do this, especially with stuff that costs what Dorian charges. However, my concern is that a customer service agent may be the issue instead of a systemic problem with Dorian, the company. I understand your position, Greg, honestly I do, but my personal feeling is not to rush to judgement about a company when my contact has been with what could be a faulty interface. If I go to the top and get the same response, however, then that is the end of my patronage with that company. 

If you call or contact Starrett or Albrecht or Beall Tools your experience will be exactly as you say - they resolve the issue immediately, at their expense and very quickly. Would that all companies were run this way but the vast majority are not.


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## Silverbullet (May 28, 2017)

Couldn't you make a small spacer under the tool post. By lifting it , the holder should have the room needed.


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## bobl (May 28, 2017)

mikey said:


> Wow, I'm disappointed that Dorian responded that way. I wonder, though, if this is the way Dorian treats all their customers or if you got a bozo on the phone when you called. I know some customer service people can be really non-helpful and when that happens, I ask to speak to the customer service manager and restate my request. If that fails and it means enough to me, I ask for their name and then the name and email address of the President of the company and then I follow through and email the guy to report my experience. Invariably, I get a response and usually the desired outcome.
> 
> In today's economic environment, a company cannot afford to antagonize their customers. This is especially true of they have a tough competitor, like Aloris. I bet if the President of Dorian found out that customer service failed to address a customer concern he would have a serious discussion with the manager of that department. By notifying the President, you're actually helping Dorian become a better company and I would consider it.



Never give in go to next in the line i always do and always seems to get service and always get names and comment on service if not given 


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## Doubleeboy (May 28, 2017)

I bought a Dorian tool holder for cnmg insert last year, 60 + dollars, very poor machining on pocket, snotty attitude when I called them to point it out.  I am done with Dorian, use to buy their drawbars for my Bridgeport clone every few years so I could have nice new threads, last one I got was marginal.  I believe the company is riding on its reputation and cutting corners.


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## Buffalo20 (May 28, 2017)

I've bought a tool post and numerous tool blocks, from Dorian, I never had a problem with the equipment or the customer service. Later when I wanted to buy a certain Dorian sourced threading tool, I called them, they were a little less helpful and told me to go through a dealer, to get the info I needed. When I said, just give me the info, I'll then buy it through the dealer, they said NO!, but after me singing the 4 aria for a few minutes, they relented and finally gave me the information. I was so PO, even with the information, I bought the threaded tool from Valenite.


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## darkzero (May 28, 2017)

I was well aware that Dorian made changes to their holders, lucky for me I had no idea they made changes as often as they did. I was set on getting a Dorian SQCTP wedge, that's what I bought & I absolutely love it, no regret, & is what I would buy again if i had to do it all over. I've used older cam lock Dorians, Aloris, DTM, & piston Armstrong QCTPs, the Dorian wedge is by far my favorite. I decided to not purchase the FTB set & went with the tool post only. I was going to buy Aloris holders.

Didn't end up that way, I couldn't afford Aloris holders for how many & how fast I wanted them. I went with import holders, still no regrets. I have so many now & enough, I don't see myself swapping out for Aloris holders either. I'm not a fan of how Dorian tries to be "innovative" & make changes to their holders so I don't buy them. The only Dorian holders I like & buy are their current boring bar holders. They are truly "indexable" unlike the Aloris ones & others. But who knows, they may change as well & they were a different style in the past.

I have a Dorian parting blade holder similar to Alan's mentioned in the OP but I bought it used. It must have been changed & the one I have must be older cause the one I have works perfectly fine with my BXA on a 12x36.

I have only dealt with Dorian once on the phone but it was a good experience. The CS rep had no idea what I was talking about but she kindly transfered me to one of their engineers who was very helpful. He worked with the distributor I was dealing with. Got my issue quickly resolved. Most manufacturers won't even let you talk to one of their engineers.

I agree with Mike, can't blame a company just on one or two CS reps. I worked for a large electronics repair depot, we had CS reps that were awesome, then there were the ones that weren't. Unfortunately, people are going to be people.

Same with places like Grizzly, some people have great experiences with their CS, some don't. I've had the same off & on experiences with Amazon. When a company is large enough & they have a considerable size CS dept, not all of them are going to be as helpful or nice as you hope for.

Think about this, not to be sexist but most CS reps are women. How many female CS reps do you think are out there that even has machining related knowledge? It can't always be a requirement to get the job to have the knowledge so they have to learn overtime. Sometimes it's hard, sometimes people catch on quick, sometimes, they never do. I have seen it.


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## darkzero (May 28, 2017)

Doubleeboy said:


> I bought a Dorian tool holder for cnmg insert last year, 60 + dollars, very poor machining on pocket, snotty attitude when I called them to point it out.  I am done with Dorian, use to buy their drawbars for my Bridgeport clone every few years so I could have nice new threads, last one I got was marginal.  I believe the company is riding on its reputation and cutting corners.



That's interesting, could be just the one you have but sucks to hear about your experience with them. I would have returned it to the vendor if possible.

I have a number of Dorian indexable tools, MCLNR for CNMG included. I have no problems with any of them.


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## 4GSR (May 28, 2017)

The next time I think about it, my brother knows a couple of the inside guys at Dorian.  They are not the counter guys.  I'll see if he can come up with a name or two and their email addresses and I'll share with some of us here on H-M.  Ken


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## pdentrem (May 28, 2017)

Too bad. Weird if this is company policy, the tooling business is no where as large as many other businesses so why **** off the future potential customers?
Pierre


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## 4GSR (May 29, 2017)

pdentrem said:


> Too bad. Weird if this is company policy, the tooling business is no where as large as many other businesses so why **** off the future potential customers?
> Pierre


Most of the larger tooling companies deal more to the high end tooling users where more $$$$$ are made off of a sale of high end tooling than a sale off of a commodity item like a QCTP holder.  Yeah, the basic QCTP and holders that are mass produce by world wide sources have brought the prices of this stuff down so it is affordable to most of us low end users.  Us low end users are of no interests to high end tool vendors.  They will sell to you, at their price, and after the sale, they want you to go away so they can take care of the big volume buyer of high end tooling.  It's not totally like this in reality, but close to it. 

You also have to remember, most businesses still use the 20/80 rule in managing their business.  The 20% customer base is what brings in the largest revenue per say, while the other 80% is there but may only bring in a few $$ annually.  They get neglected somewhat more or less, depending on sales.  And believe me, us H-M are in the bottom 80%, probably not even enough to make spect on the chart, unless you are like me and spend all of your money on evilBay.


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## Eddyde (May 29, 2017)

There is no excuse for poor customer service. However, in the case of machine tooling, I feel some mods are to be expected, like having to machine the tee nut to fit or having to machine a chuck backplate. I think It would be difficult if not impossible to make a toolholder that is optimized for every machine, and since the end users can machine them to fit, they probably figure most will simply do that.  I personally wouldn't think anything wrong of having to modify the toolholder to fit my machine.


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## Buffalo20 (May 29, 2017)

Eddyde's comments made me remember my series of Jet power feed phone calls. I have a Jet JVM-836 milling machine, I wanted to put a knee feed on it, Jet didn't offer one, but at the time they were also selling Wilton mills, they had a model, almost identical to the Jet, that had a knee power feed. The CS agent at Jet, said it would bolt right on, so I bought the kit. Well, it wasn't even close to bolting on, so I called Jet and got the CS agent on the phone and explained my situation. His next comment made my day, he siad "you own machine tools, make it fit", then politely said goodbye and hung up. I made it fit and it has worked great since then.


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## EmilioG (May 29, 2017)

Could be a fluke, but you shouldn't have to re-machine or modify a high quality, expensive tool system that was made to fit right the first time.
Like other's have said, I would follow up the chain and try to resolve this. If management isn't aware, shame on them too. If they are aware and still allow it to happen, shame on them.  Hopefully this is an aberration, a fluke.  I would contact the company to let them know and at least give them a chance to explain or resolve the issue.
Hard to believe a company in the US would take such a lax attitude. Unless they are folding their tents and/or moving operations East, I don't understand it.


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## Alan H. (May 29, 2017)

I am aware that my experience with Dorian is not unique.  I know of others having similar bad customer service experiences with Dorian.   So poor customer service  appears to be symptomatic of the company's culture.

I have had two significant contacts with them regarding quality issues and found both times that their customer service was abysmal.   This thread is one of the two.

I am not trying to be arrogant, but I am old enough and have enough scars on me to recognize a cultural issue in a company when I see it.  Combined with my personal experience with them and that of others  that I know and trust,  I am personally convinced that Dorian has a *cultural fault *based on beliefs that must run from the corner office*.   *I have already spent enough time and my hard earned money on them.  I  am not willing to try to fix a problem with them that is most likely being promulgated by the boss.     

I pushed forward and fixed the holder.  The additional time I was willing to spend on this is here to help others.  I wanted to share my specific experience so others could find and evaluate it before they buy the Dorian "grab bag".  While I could find this information in my research, it was not in one place and/or succinct enough to keep me from stepping into the tar pit.


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## Nogoingback (May 29, 2017)

[QUOTE="
You also have to remember, most businesses still use the 20/80 rule in managing their business.  The 20% customer base is what brings in the largest revenue per say, while the other 80% is there but may only bring in a few $$ annually.  They get neglected somewhat more or less, depending on sales.  And believe me, us H-M are in the bottom 80%, probably not even enough to make spect on the chart, unless you are like me and spend all of your money on evilBay.[/QUOTE]



What you say is undoubtably true, but dumb and arrogant.  The best businesses treat all their customers well, regardless.  Besides, making assumptions about customers is foolish since they really
don't know who they're talking to, or who that customer might know, or what they might buy in the future.  And courtesy COSTS NOTHING.

This reminds me of a conversation I had one time with a guy who sold BMW cars.  In the car business, making an assumption about whether a customer is real or not is sometimes called "pre-qualifying".
This guy told me that he never does that no matter who walks in the door.  He said one time a 15 year of kid walked in and asked a lot of questions about the cars, which he answered just like he would
have if he had been an adult.  A few weeks later, when the kid turned 16, he came in with his parents and they bought him a car!  I don't agree with the parent's decision, but the guy made the sale because
he treated the kid decently.


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## woodchucker (May 29, 2017)

Too bad you modified it. I would have returned it with that attitude.
I don't care if you are a little buyer, or a big buyer. Their response should have been better than what it was. If they have a problem that they recognize I would expect a better response.  In this day and age of the internet a little bad juju goes further than good juju. I always read what the problems are b4 buying. Many times I weed out the stupid buyer (using something that it was not designed for, or the wrong size, or not proper use) from the good buyer having problems.
I don't read many of the good responses. Sometimes the company itself plants good responses. I have watched my own negative reviews disappear from the reviews. So I watch for that. When that happens, I don't buy from them again.  So if I read a negative and don't see it there later, the alarms go off.
Many of the top guys are now making things in China , some with very good results, others not so great. So when they do, and their price remains high, or higher, their customer service better be top notch.

Sorry you had problems with a premium tool and were treated so poorly. Your posting it here is a slight revenge, hope that helps.


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## Bob Korves (May 29, 2017)

Guys, don't lose sight of the fact that the holder was not made to fit that particular lathe, or any specific lathe.  Lathes come in 1" nominal increments of swing, and deviate from the nominal numbers.  Metric as well.  The compound mount on the cross slide can be (and will be) mounted by the manufacturer at any random height they choose.  The better tooling manufacturers are pretty good at giving the dimensions of what they are selling.  It is up to US to make sure that will work for us.  If the product is not as described, then that is a problem with the manufacturer or seller.  Poor customer service is always a mistake, intolerable.  

Remember that these people are not baby sitters.  I did customer service as part of my employment for 26 years.  I helped everyone as well as I could, and was polite and cared about helping the customer.  I was NOT responsible for the bad information they gave when ordering, but tried my best to sort it out for them anyway.  It is difficult to deal with people who want someone to hold their hand on every aspect of a project they have taken on for themselves, and then want to be bailed out every step of the way for something they did not understand, did not take the time to learn, and simply dialed the phone immediately with every slight misunderstanding.  Some customer service people simply blow those people away, and that is understandable.  I will help anyone who asks. but I will HELP them do the job themselves, not do the job for them.  If you cannot do it yourself, hire pros from the beginning, and let them do the job.


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## RJSakowski (May 29, 2017)

In regard to determining the suitability of a particular QCTP to any given lathe, there is one critical dimension which is not usually specified.  We get numbers for the swing over bed, swing over carriage, and center to center distance but not for the distance from the spindle axis to the top of the compound.  It is this dimension which determines if a particular QCTP will work on the lathe.  Unfortunately there appears to be no standard for this dimension among lathe manufacturers.

The minimum vertical setting for a tool holder is determined by the thickness of the tool seat and the size of the tool being used.   For my AXA class QCTP, the thickness of the tool seat is between .410" and .471" depending upon the manufacturer of the tool holder.  Add to that, a 1/2" tool, and my minimum tool height is .910" to .971".  My Grizzly G0602 has a distance of .923" from the spindle axis to the top of the compound which means that the only tool holders which will allow me to properly set a 1/2" tool is the Shars 250- 01 XL with the .410 high tool seat.

As far as maximum usable tool height, that is determined by the difference between the height of the tool holder and the tool post, along with the minimum tool height.  In my case, the maximum is well over the spindle axis and not of concern.  However, if there is a greater distance between the axis and the compound, as in the case of the OP then 

Shars gives dimensions for tool posts, as do Dorian, Aloris, and Phase II.  A simple measure of the the spindle axis to top of compound distance should determine which QCTP and tool holders will work on your lathe.

For those individuals who are buying a QCTP along with a new lathe, it would be a useful contribution to this site to compile a list of lathes and their spindle axis to top of compound distances.  I'll start off by offering the above-mentioned distance for the G0602 of .923" and .779" for my Atlas 6x18, Model No. 101.21400.

Finally, in regard to the OP's problem, I would simply put a spacer of appropriate thickness between the QCTP and the compound.  On my G0602,  would be able to raise the QCTP by 5/8".


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## ddickey (May 29, 2017)

I just noticed this today on my new tool post. I've had it for a few weeks but never looked this closely
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 at it.
This is going back to MSC.


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## darkzero (May 29, 2017)

Wow, that don't look good. I'd return it too. Mine looks nothing like that but I have the red one. And what's up with the yellow paint in the set screws? Maybe the "painter" was drunk that day or maybe Dorian's quality is falling off.


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## Alan H. (May 29, 2017)

RJSakowski said:


> In regard to determining the suitability of a particular QCTP to any given lathe, there is one critical dimension which is not usually specified.  We get numbers for the swing over bed, swing over carriage, and center to center distance but not for the distance from the spindle axis to the top of the compound.  It is this dimension which determines if a particular QCTP will work on the lathe.  Unfortunately there appears to be no standard for this dimension among lathe manufacturers.
> 
> The minimum vertical setting for a tool holder is determined by the thickness of the tool seat and the size of the tool being used.   For my AXA class QCTP, the thickness of the tool seat is between .410" and .471" depending upon the manufacturer of the tool holder.  Add to that, a 1/2" tool, and my minimum tool height is .910" to .971".  My Grizzly G0602 has a distance of .923" from the spindle axis to the top of the compound which means that the only tool holders which will allow me to properly set a 1/2" tool is the Shars 250- 01 XL with the .410 high tool seat.
> 
> ...



Thanks RJ, a very good idea on lathe specific info ref. QCTP fit being posted here on the forum.  I would suggest a separate thread on that topic with your data as a start so folks can find it when searching.  

Regarding putting a spacer under my QCTP, I prefer to have it sit directly on the compound as designed.  My PM1340GT uses a BXA as confirmed by dealer and by many here who have them.  I have no problems with any BXA tooling other than the Dorian cutoff shown in Post #1 above.  All my Aloris holders and the import holders I have work well within the range needed to adjust them.  So to shim the QCTP to fix one poorly designed holder is not something that appeals to me personally.  In addition  the poorly deigned holder has already made its trip through the milling machine and now is adjustable to the appropriate level.


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## Alan H. (May 30, 2017)

ddickey said:


> I just noticed this today on my new tool post. I've had it for a few weeks but never looked this closely
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too bad that they could not clean up the face better than than.  Looks like their quality program is failing them.  I am glad you are within the window you can send it back to MSC.  I am betting that the odds are against you that Dorian would help you.


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## NCjeeper (May 30, 2017)

4gsr said:


> unless you are like me and spend all of your money on evilBay.


Glad I am not the only one.


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## Nogoingback (May 30, 2017)

RJSakowski said:


> In regard to determining the suitability of a particular QCTP to any given lathe, there is one critical dimension which is not usually specified.  We get numbers for the swing over bed, swing over carriage, and center to center distance but not for the distance from the spindle axis to the top of the compound.  It is this dimension which determines if a particular QCTP will work on the lathe.  Unfortunately there appears to be no standard for this dimension among lathe manufacturers.
> 
> The minimum vertical setting for a tool holder is determined by the thickness of the tool seat and the size of the tool being used.   For my AXA class QCTP, the thickness of the tool seat is between .410" and .471" depending upon the manufacturer of the tool holder.  Add to that, a 1/2" tool, and my minimum tool height is .910" to .971".  My Grizzly G0602 has a distance of .923" from the spindle axis to the top of the compound which means that the only tool holders which will allow me to properly set a 1/2" tool is the Shars 250- 01 XL with the .410 high tool seat.
> 
> ...




RJ, I think your suggestion of compiling lathe dimensions is excellent.  I'll start a thread
in Machine Accessories, since that's where the Tool Post Reviews are stickied.  Perhaps
you could repost your lathe dimensions there and hopefully other  people will join in.


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## 4GSR (Jun 1, 2017)

Okay guys and gals.

I talked to my brother last night about contacting someone on the inside of Dorain.  Forget that!  The company is Italian family own! He said they are very strong headed and very difficult getting them to listen and consider making changes unless they come up with it first.  So there we have it.
Did find out that not all of their stuff is made right here in USA.  They bring in a lot of stuff from their country of Italy.  Brother did indicate that the QCTP and holders were made here in USA.

Ken

EDIT: Rearranged some of the language as requested by one of our members! 

And I have nothing against Italians.  They do make some nice tooling and machinery that we have never heard of.  Also, they are big in the forging industry, too.  I've dealt with forgings from there in the past.

Ken


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## ddickey (Jun 1, 2017)

Yeah, Italy makes some fine stuff. LOL
Okay edit: I was joking but seriously Italy is not known for it's quality manufacturing.


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## Bob Korves (Jun 1, 2017)

'Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the
lovers Swiss, the police German, and it's all organized by the Italians.'


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## Buffalo20 (Jun 1, 2017)

ddickey said:


> Yeah, Italy makes some fine stuff. LOL
> Okay edit: I was joking but seriously Italy is not known for it's quality manufacturing.




Well if you spend enough money they do, Ferraris, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, are some pretty impressive. I have a bandsaw thats made in Italy that incredible, a tapping head thats great, but they do also sell Fiats


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## RJSakowski (Jun 1, 2017)

ddickey said:


> Yeah, Italy makes some fine stuff. LOL
> Okay edit: I was joking but seriously Italy is not known for it's quality manufacturing.


Other than Ferrari, Lamborghini, Alfa Romeo, Maserati, etc.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 1, 2017)

Have you ever worked on an Alfa, Maserati, etc? Fancy sheet metal and shiny paint doesn't tell the real story.


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## woodchucker (Jun 1, 2017)

I'll add to that Pirelli tires. I have used many brands, looking for that tire, that holds the road the way it should and releases when it should.  And doesn't get super loud. 
Goodyear (suck, loud and don't hold)
Cooper (the worst)
Bridgestone ehhh
Firestone ehhh
Toyo better but get loud quick
Continental good
Michellin (mixed bag)

Pirelli's awesome..  these things stick on the turns and just allow that little slip when needed, but don't break completely loose. I've had 2 sets, and they don't get loud like the others.


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## dlane (Jun 1, 2017)

I like my coopers on my truck , tuff tire , not loud, good traction, but they are 10 ply
On my bike I liked pirelli's


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## woodchucker (Jun 1, 2017)

Funny I had coopers on my 94 4 runner and hated them. Then tried mastercraft (I think by cooper) and liked them. I put coopers on my car and hated them. Loud, soft sidewalls when the wind blew the car was all over the place.. Yet with those soft sidewalls it didn't hold the road, they broke free way to easily. I tried all different pressures, they just didn't do it. After 2 tries on coopers I was done.


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## Alan H. (Jun 1, 2017)

Pirelli Tire is now Chinese - manufactured the world over at 20 sites including Russia and Mexico.  Nothing is firm anymore is it??  

Back to Dorian, the strong sense I got was they could not care less about customer relations.  Maybe the Chinese will buy them too and move production to China, Mexico, and Russia.  If they keep throwing their brand under the bus, the "Goodwill" will have zero value when the time comes.


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## george wilson (Jun 8, 2017)

I would never buy anything from Dorian myself. YEARS ago I read a similar thread about how Dorian treats their customers.

I don't have a lot of regard for Jet customer service,either. Mt last encounter was when I bought a NEW Jet slow speed,wet wheel grinder,which promptly broke down. When I called Jet,I got a long winded lecture about how proud they are of their products.

Dealers I called mentioned that those grinders often don't work right out of the boxes. I found out myself what is wrong with them while trying to change the printed circuit board: There are connectors on the printed circuit board(PC from now on!) Those connectors are literally thinner than a beer can. They CRACK when the assemblers push them down over the little posts. I soldered my cracked connector,and never did use the new PC board. If everyone knew about this manufacturing defect,Jet might be making a reliable product. But I am not the one who is going to TRY explaining the problem to those arrogant and stupid people at Jet.

Many years ago I had a bad CS incident with Jet. They didn't take credit cards at that time(late 80's). They also waited for my $20.00 check to clear before they would sent the $2.00 part. I was 19 days without an operating lathe.


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## ddickey (Jun 13, 2017)

This is my replacement. I didn't notice this when I put it on. What would you do?


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## Bob Korves (Jun 13, 2017)

ddickey said:


> This is my replacement. I didn't notice this when I put it on. What would you do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Get my large pile of money back...


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## ddickey (Jun 13, 2017)

Go with an Aloris?


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## Alan H. (Jun 13, 2017)

It's likely cosmetic and doesn't have an effect on its function. Looks like they had a bad case of rust worms on their stock??  Are the other faces Okay?

Perhaps a discount is in order? I'd suggest calling MSC and discussing it with them. They've already replaced it once haven't they?


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## ddickey (Jun 13, 2017)

They have yes.


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## Bob Korves (Jun 13, 2017)

For the kind of money Dorian stuff costs, there is no excuse for what we see in the photos.  It does not affect function, but still, no excuse for poorly finished products from high end companies.  Send it back.


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## ddickey (Jun 13, 2017)

I talked to both MSC and Dorian. Dorian in out of stock and MSC said they don't want to send me any from their stock. Which is fine with me. End of June I'll get one direct from Dorian. It is very odd I've had two bad ones. They said no one has returned any for poor finish.


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## Alan H. (Jun 13, 2017)

Glad Dorian is helping you.  Sounds like MSC was not too helpful.


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## ddickey (Jun 13, 2017)

No MSC was helpful. They didn't want to risk me getting another one of theirs and said I should get one straight from Dorian.
But check out this email I received from Dorian.

Duane


I got with my production manager about this issue & she informed me that all of our tool posts have that defect on them due to the material.  It was the way that we received the raw material.  They were unable to clean them up any further without effecting critical dimensions on the post.  We can send you out another post with a new order from MSC but we can’t guarantee that the new post that you receive will be 100% blemish free.


*N****** H | Customer Service Representative*

Dorian Tool International | ISO 9001:2008 Certified

615 CR 219, East Bernard, TX 77435

Direct Line: 979.398.****

n****@doriantool.com | www.doriantool.com


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## darkzero (Jun 13, 2017)

That sucks, can't believe you got two with finish issues. I too I would not accept it in that condition.

I agree, MSC was helpful in not wanting to send you another from their stock, meaning they don't want it to happen again. As well as Dorian being helpful working with you & the vendor. That was my experience with Dorian & Travers, they worked together to get me what I was supposed to get. Same experience I had with GTS (Gator supplier) because of a cosmetic issue. I've dealt with other companies where a cosmetic issue would not be a valid reason for return, believe it or not Enco was one of those companies. At least they did end up offering a discount but I had to fight for a return.

Hopefully they do take care of you.


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## Alan H. (Jun 13, 2017)

So Dorian says they'd known that they were shipping blemished products!   More evidence of poor company culture at play.  Or worse yet, one that's struggling financially. 

Looks like Dorian also put the monkey back on you to get MSC to issue a new order for them to ship you one direct.  Don't you think MSC may balk at that?  I'm betting MSC will think they've paid for it already!  

Another sad commentary on Dorian.


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## mksj (Jun 13, 2017)

A bit disappointing, but it does not affect the function. Still if a manufacturer gets material in that doesn't meet their specs, then it should not be used. I guess over time I have gotten my share of dings and dents on equipment, so I guess it comes down to how important looks are to you. I have the same Dorian QCTP and functionally it has worked well and been very repeatable.  At this point I wouldn't hold out for a perfect looking tool post from Dorian, but if you want to return it, I would suggest sending it back to MSC and getting an Aloris. Unfortunately Aloris just had their online sale, which would have been a good time to pick up the QCTP and a bunch of holders.  Most of my holders are from Aloris and very nicely made, I got tired of the few Dorian #2 holders I have being completely different (i.e. guess what is in the box). I also found more recently on a Dorian threading holder that one of the bolts threads were cut incorrectly, yet they still managed to forcibly screw it into the hole. So it seems like the QC is becoming more of an issue.


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## darkzero (Jun 13, 2017)

Unfortunately that's how most manufacturers are that don't sell direct, you have to go through a distributor/retailer even if in the end they drop ship direct and/or you have talked to them direct. This is not limited to just machining related either. Some manufacturer's won't even respond to small time consumers.

Looks like Dorian's QC is going down again. They got better at one point but now it looks like they're going backwards. I bet it's the fault of one or a few key people, maybe new hires? I hear the same type of thing happened at Bison/TMX a few years back.

If I were in the same shoes I'd just go with an Aloris already if I couldn't wait for some reason. But if I could wait, I'd look for a DTM. I couldn't find one at the time so I went with Dorian. Luckily my Dorian had no issues & I still think it's the better TP, but just the TP only, still not a fan of most of their holders.


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## rick9345 (Jun 14, 2017)

High expectations, low prices = kits waiting for final fitting by the user. one size fits all


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## ddickey (Jun 15, 2017)

Now MSC wants to send me a post from their stock. I was told they would wait until the new batch came in from Dorian on the 30th of June.
Check out this latest email.

RE: Tool post

NH
. Press the Enter key to open the contact card." style="unicode-bidi: embed; direction: ltr; user-select: text; cursor: pointer;">Natasha Horelica <nhorelica@doriantool.com>





|
Today, 7:20 PM
You



You replied on 6/15/2017 7:22 PM.


The new batch will still have the blemishes. 


*Natasha Horelica | Customer Service Representative*

Dorian Tool International | ISO 9001:2008 Certified

615 CR 219, East Bernard, TX 77435

Direct Line: 979.398.3227

nhorelica@doriantool.com | www.doriantool.com


Please send all *orders and inquires* to our sales email at :  *sales@doriantool.com*



*From:* duane DICKEY [mailto:duane.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, June 15, 2017 2:18 PM
*To:* Natasha Horelica <nhorelica@doriantool.com>
*Subject:* Re: Tool post



I'll wait for the new batch.

You said end of June if I remember correctly, correct?

Duane


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## ddickey (Jun 15, 2017)

I was called by a Dorian tech guy today. Apologized for the posts looking like regejects but assured me it doesn't affect performance. Yeah, I wonder how much they ground off trying to fix the blemish. He said they are trying to keep the blemishes to a minimum of 25% coverage.
I  guess there is a new run happening and I could get one of those sometime in July. I told him I used it and his tune changded. Said he'd have to talk to production.


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## mikey (Jun 15, 2017)

Personally, I would return it to MSC and order an Aloris in exchange. My Dorian is perfectly smooth and finished on the outside but if they are now accepting surface defects of the kind you've gotten, they can keep it. Functionally, an Aloris is the same as a Dorian.


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## darkzero (Jun 15, 2017)

That sucks, hopefully they take care of you but if they can't guarantee no blemishes like that on the next one, I personally would return it & go with something else. Surprising how some companies are so helpful & others that you wouldn't expect are not.

A couple years ago I purchased a Gator chuck from All Industrial, it was drop shipped directly from GTS. I noticed the top jaws had some minor voids, all cosmetic, wouldn't affect functionality. For the heck of it I emailed GTS & asked if they cared about the quality of their chucks even though they are made in China.

To my surprise their VP of operations, Andrew, replied back to me personally. This is the same person who used to be the VP of operations at Bison & left. He told me that they did care & would replace the chuck. But they were out of stock & their next shipment wasn't due for another 2 months. He told me to go ahead & use the chuck in meantime. 2 months later they kept their word & replaced it, also covered the shipping to return the old one.


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## Splat (Jun 16, 2017)

Escalate and dominate. I wouldn't take anything but satisfaction from any business that gets my money, especially if their prices are as escalated as Dorian's. I try to be nice, respectful, and to the point when I need to call a company or retailer about a shoddy item. If the first guy that picks up the phone won't help than I ask for or call back and ask for the regional manager, business owner, or president. Someone way up the chain. Call your credit card company and complain. They're usually surprisingly helpful in this regard. There's ALWAYS options. For roughly the same price, maybe even cheaper, I'd upgrade to a Multifix 40-position QCTP from Create Tool.


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## Alan H. (Jun 17, 2017)

ddickey said:


> I was called by a Dorian tech guy today. Apologized for the posts looking like regejects but assured me it doesn't affect performance. Yeah, I wonder how much they ground off trying to fix the blemish. He said they are trying to keep the blemishes to a minimum of 25% coverage.
> I  guess there is a new run happening and I could get one of those sometime in July. I told him I used it and his tune changded. Said he'd have to talk to production.



Duane,
As I said post #3 in this thread, I like my Dorian post.  I do not like their company culture and their very poor customer service.   The start of this thread was about them knowingly sending out holders that had a design/dimensional flaw.  This thread has now morphed into them knowingly using poor quality raw materials and knowingly sending out blemished products. 

Looks like to me that you can choose to keep the latest one you have in hand and enjoy its functionality.  They've admitted the next one may be even worse and may be waffling on even swapping it out.  This is no surprise to me.   Their comment "I have to talk to production" is a strong signal that customer service is perceived to be low stakes to them or an indicator that they are having even worse issues.  Their use of "rust worm" damaged raw material is a signal not all is well southwest of Houston.

Alternatively send it back to MSC and get a refund.  Get your money back and go with an Aloris as Mikey suggested.  Aloris is having their summer sale now with 25% off and free shipping.   This makes them quite attractive at the moment.

Meanwhile a few links for fun:
Dorian's Facebook Page - maybe a photo of your "rust wormed" QCTP here would get some action?  I got the sense you may not be able to post there without their permission but may be worth a shot. 

Here's Dorian's CEO Linked-in profile - Enrico R. Giannetti 
It is interesting to note that the last sentence of his profile says the following: _"Thank you for giving us the opportunity to serve you. Our success comes from the original commitment we made,  Technology, Quality, & Service." _ From my experience with them I find this comical. 

Here's Dorian's Operations Manager Linked-in profile - Anna Giannetti 
Yeap, same last name as Enrico's and her profile shows a photo of her with him.  Looks like she finished school in 2014 with a Human Resources degree and now she's Ops Mgr.


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## 4GSR (Jun 17, 2017)

I'm going to Sugarland tomorrow.  Want me to throw rocks at their building as I pass by on 59?


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## ddickey (Jun 19, 2017)

Sure hope the Aloris on the MSC site is the same as the Super Precision on the Aloris site.
Cheaper on the Aloris site also.
MSC refunded me $90 off of the Dorian so I decided to keep it. Total price ended up being $270.


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## Bob Korves (Jun 19, 2017)

ddickey said:


> MSC refunded me $90 off of the Dorian so I decided to keep it. Total price ended up being $270.


And probably still made a profit...


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## mikey (Jun 19, 2017)

Still think Ken should throw rocks ...


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## Buffalo20 (Jun 19, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> And probably still made a profit...



Turn a profit - maybe/probably, lose money - never


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## ddickey (Jun 19, 2017)

Oops. Need to rescind my previous statement. Ended up paying $310. Could have bought an Aloris for $325. Hmm, doesn't leave me feeling to good.
Oh well. It's done with now so...
Ken, throw those rocks like you mean it.


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## The_Apprentice (Jun 22, 2017)

*"Could be a fluke, but you shouldn't have to re-machine or modify a high quality, expensive tool system that was made to fit right the first time."*​
In my younger years, I would have been annoyed as hell. However, after reading David Fenner's book on having to manually re-machine and clean up numerous issues with a BRAND NEW LATHE, including making other modifications to it... and reading of similar stories from others... I have come to the conclusion that it is now expected that as a machinist, sellers of products to us expect us to finish off their own work.

That's great and all if you have the skill/time to do it. But for most home hobbyists starting out, they don't have a spare lathe to turn materials that need to be put on ANOTHER lathe, and often don't even have a min-mill purchased yet... after all, they are just starting out.


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