# Got my vaccine



## Aukai (Dec 29, 2020)

The arm is still attached, and functional  , my flu shot had me down for 3 days 103.0 fever off, and on. Fingers crossed.


----------



## aliva (Dec 29, 2020)

Just a note, it's recommended that you still ware a mask


----------



## Aukai (Dec 29, 2020)

Yep, it's mandatory here anyway by ordinance.


----------



## mattthemuppet2 (Dec 29, 2020)

good for you!


----------



## Aaron_W (Dec 29, 2020)

My wife works at a hospital and got the one that has to be kept very cold. 

She was sick for several days afterwards, fever, headache and general blahs (standard flu like symptoms) and her arm hurt for about a week. Still much better than the Covid patients she has seen at work. She has to get a second dose in about a month, hopefully the reaction to that will be less intense. 

Good luck and hope you have less of a reaction, I currently have a sample size of 1 to go by.


----------



## Janderso (Dec 29, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> My wife works at a hospital and got the one that has to be kept very cold.
> 
> She was sick for several days afterwards, fever, headache and general blahs (standard flu like symptoms) and her arm hurt for about a week. Still much better than the Covid patients she has seen at work. She has to get a second dose in about a month, hopefully the reaction to that will be less intense.
> 
> Good luck and hope you have less of a reaction, I currently have a sample size of 1 to go by.


Interesting. My Niece had the shot, a little sore with no other symptoms after 5 days


----------



## Lo-Fi (Dec 29, 2020)

Thanks all for piping up, it's important that folks do so with all the scaremongering and disinformation floating about. I've been keeping a close eye - and what I've seen has been really encouraging - but there's nothing like hearing experiences from relatable folks you know and trust. At a shade under 40 and in good health, I'm well down the list, though. Might get my shot August/September at the current rate here.


----------



## Aukai (Dec 29, 2020)

Our shot is the Modera version, 5 hrs nothing solid to report other than a good nap.


----------



## eugene13 (Dec 29, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Our shot is the Modera version, 5 hrs nothing solid to report other than a good nap.


Real patriots wear there mask and get their shot.


----------



## projectnut (Dec 29, 2020)

I had 3 shots last night and felt absolutely no pain.  After the 4th shot however I got a splitting headache.  I think it might have had something to do with falling off the bar stool.

On a more serious note We don't expect to be getting the vaccine until late this spring.  Most likely around April.


----------



## Aukai (Dec 29, 2020)

Paramedic checking incoming private jets, and creeping up on 70 YO will get you to the front of the line


----------



## RJSakowski (Dec 29, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I had 3 shots last night and felt absolutely no pain.  After the 4th shot however I got a splitting headache.  I think it might have had something to do with falling off the bar stool.
> 
> On a more serious note We don't expect to be getting the vaccine until late this spring.  Most likely around April.


I'm hoping you are wrong but I was in the Wis. Dept. of Health Services site and they are expecting that it will be several months before they are into phase 1b.


----------



## Larry$ (Dec 29, 2020)

@ 78 & diabetic I don't know how far down the list I'll be. But I will get the shot when offered.


----------



## Aaron_W (Dec 29, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Interesting. My Niece had the shot, a little sore with no other symptoms after 5 days




Probably like the flu shot, I almost always feel bad for a day or two after I get one, my wife gets them every year for work and rarely has any ill effect.


A lot of people think they "get the flu" when they get a flu shot, but I think really it is just an immune response , your body going "Hey what did you just stick in me"!  

If the vaccines really gave you the illness then you should be able to make other people sick, and I've never heard of one family member getting sick from a flu shot and giving it to the rest of the family. Everything has "flu like symptoms" because that is your bodies natural response to unwanted stuff running around inside you.

Just in case anybody thought her getting sick meant it gave her "the covid". It just made her feel bad for several days.


----------



## MontanaLon (Dec 29, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> My wife works at a hospital and got the one that has to be kept very cold.
> 
> She was sick for several days afterwards, fever, headache and general blahs (standard flu like symptoms) and her arm hurt for about a week. Still much better than the Covid patients she has seen at work. She has to get a second dose in about a month, hopefully the reaction to that will be less intense.
> 
> Good luck and hope you have less of a reaction, I currently have a sample size of 1 to go by.


There is a lot of unknowns here particularly as it concerns the second dose. During the trials they had a lot of people drop out after the first dose the side effects were so bad on round 1. And even the CDC is saying those who have adverse reactions to the first shot should not get the second but they are pretty vague about what constitutes "an adverse reaction". Those who have allergic reactions to the first shot should definitely not go for round 2. Think of it like a bee sting, you get 1 and it is a bee sting but those who get stung again can have an anaphylactic reaction which is life threatening. I have plenty of experience with anaphylaxis and it is no fun. The hospital here is holding everyone who gets the vaccine for 1 hour as a serious allergic reaction will become apparent in that amount of time. I am way down the list of people who will get a spot in line so I will have plenty of time to see how it goes for everyone in front of me.


----------



## Aukai (Dec 29, 2020)

I am/was hesitant right up to sitting in the chair to get the shot. There have been some allergic reactions, but no fatalities, so I held still. No side effects at all so far, maybe the injection site will be sore tomorrow. 10 hrs post injection, I didn't even get a smiley face band aid


----------



## mksj (Dec 30, 2020)

Aukai, Kudos to getting the COVID vaccine.  

FYI, the dropout rate of the COVID trials on the 2nd dose was the same in both placebo and treated arm (Moderna phase 3 subjects receiving 2nd dose 92.1% vaccine, 91.7% placebo), which is about what is expected in most clinical trials. The data for both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are similar in that individuals over 65 have fewer side effects with the 2nd dose "The most common solicited adverse reactions associated with mRNA-1273 were injection site pain (91.6%), fatigue (68.5%), headache (63.0%), muscle pain (59.6%), joint pain (44.8%), and chills (43.4%); severe adverse reactions occurred in 0.2% to 9.7% of participants, were more frequent after dose 2 than after dose 1, and were generally less frequent in participants ≥65 years of age as compared to younger participants". One would expect a higher incidence of side effects with repeat dose of vaccines because you are building immunity after the first dose.

Incidence of anaphylaxis with vaccines in general is about 1.3 in 1M administered doses, although there are wide variations for specific vaccines. Often the anaphylaxis may not be due to the vaccine itself but the ancillary ingredients (excipients) in the vaccine either from it's production or to maintain stability like PEG.
Anaphylaxis to the first COVID-19 vaccine: is polyethylene glycol (PEG) the culprit?
https://bjanaesthesia.org/article/S0007-0912(20)31009-6/fulltext


----------



## kb58 (Dec 30, 2020)

I trust that all those downplaying or denying the whole thing will give up their place in line to those who believe it's real.


----------



## rwm (Dec 30, 2020)

I didn't even know you could be allergic to PEG?!
But here it is:








						Polyethylene Glycol-Induced Systemic Allergic Reactions (Anaphylaxis) - PubMed
					

Polyethylene glycols (PEGs) or macrogols are hydrophilic polymers found in everyday products such as foods, cosmetics, and medications. We present 5 cases of confirmed PEG allergy, which to our knowledge is the largest case series to date. Four of the 5 cases developed anaphylaxis to medications...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Robert


----------



## tjb (Dec 30, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I didn't even get a smiley face band aid


Here you go, A:


----------



## Aukai (Dec 30, 2020)

Morning report 23+ hrs post injection, I have to move my arm in a lateral raise to induce injection site tenderness, and it's a little tender to palpation. For some reason I was a little restless during the night, but don't feel tired this morning. So it would seem that my status is nothing out of the normal, and more on the good side.


----------



## ACHiPo (Dec 30, 2020)

My sister got the Pfizer vaccine a week and a half ago with no side effects.  She gets a booster shot in a week, then will be 94% immune from Covid after another 7 days.


----------



## Aukai (Dec 30, 2020)

If I'm not mistaken(or the news), last night I saw that this vaccine will be able to protect for up to 5 mutations. The UK one being the first....


----------



## kb58 (Dec 30, 2020)

While that's great to hear, I don't see how an mfg could know the five mutations it could change into before it happens. That seems really unlikely.

The whole mutation thing is concerning because the longer this thing hangs around, the more time it has to randomly turn into something worse, or less harmful. Flip of a coin... My employer wants to send me on a business trip after New Year's and it'll be interesting to see what happens when I politely refuse due to us being in the at-risk group.


----------



## Aukai (Dec 30, 2020)

I hope you do not get any resistance from your employer. My son is supposed to be flying to Korea for his company to work with Samsung. He ain't going, nope, no way, no how


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 30, 2020)

I have some envy.
I've been in the countryside hiding out from this pestilence since February, because I don't fancy my chances if it catches up to me. AstraZeneca now also approved in UK, so it won't be long now. The "get your vaccination" program here is huge - it's everywhere. It feels a bit military, which is maybe not surprising because the military has been deployed to help.

AstraZeneca gives a half-dose, which provokes about 50% to 70% effectiveness, then followed by a full dose about 3 weeks later. This brings the protection to 90% plus. For me, it can't come too soon. I am now in the middle of a new Tier#4 lockdown with a raging new strain about 70% more contagious.


----------



## ACHiPo (Dec 30, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I hope you do not get any resistance from your employer. My son is supposed to be flying to Korea for his company to work with Samsung. He ain't going, nope, no way, no how


Good call.  We had employees fly to Korea and they were NOT treated well at all.  Basically imprisoned for 14 days of quarantine--3 squares a day of questionable quality and locked in a room.


----------



## MontanaLon (Jan 1, 2021)

kb58 said:


> I trust that all those downplaying or denying the whole thing will give up their place in line to those who believe it's real.


Absolutely. The wife and I have discussed it already and will not be getting it or having the children get it. Those who want to get it are more than welcome to our doses. It is not that we don't like the vaccine as much as it is the way the whole thing has been handled. It seems like every state is doing their own thing as far as who gets the vaccine first and it isn't addressing the most severe problem demographic and completely ignoring the possibility that those who are getting the vaccine may have already had the virus and thus the doses are being wasted when they could go to someone who actually would benefit from it.

Here in Illinois "medical staff" is on the first go round of the vaccine. At my wife's hospital more than 1/2 of the patient care providers have already had the virus and are getting the vaccine too. Now, it is interesting to note that not a single one of those people have died from the virus but somehow they are more "at risk" than the residents of the nursing home down the road where there have been 30 deaths so far. Those people really need it. Our fire department and EMS providers have all had the virus over the course of the last 9 months. Where it gets odd is all of those people in EMS and at the hospital have been diligent about mask wearing and hygiene and still have become infected. It really tends toward masks being ineffective and social distancing being what really makes a difference.


----------



## Jim F (Jan 1, 2021)

MontanaLon said:


> Absolutely. The wife and I have discussed it already and will not be getting it or having the children get it. Those who want to get it are more than welcome to our doses. It is not that we don't like the vaccine as much as it is the way the whole thing has been handled. It seems like every state is doing their own thing as far as who gets the vaccine first and it isn't addressing the most severe problem demographic and completely ignoring the possibility that those who are getting the vaccine may have already had the virus and thus the doses are being wasted when they could go to someone who actually would benefit from it.
> 
> Here in Illinois "medical staff" is on the first go round of the vaccine. At my wife's hospital more than 1/2 of the patient care providers have already had the virus and are getting the vaccine too. Now, it is interesting to note that not a single one of those people have died from the virus but somehow they are more "at risk" than the residents of the nursing home down the road where there have been 30 deaths so far. Those people really need it. Our fire department and EMS providers have all had the virus over the course of the last 9 months. Where it gets odd is all of those people in EMS and at the hospital have been diligent about mask wearing and hygiene and still have become infected. It really tends toward masks being ineffective and social distancing being what really makes a difference.


Stop throwing logic into the mix.......


----------



## koenbro (Jan 1, 2021)

MontanaLon said:


> Here in Illinois "medical staff" is on the first go round of the vaccine. At my wife's hospital more than 1/2 of the patient care providers have already had the virus and are getting the vaccine too. Now, it is interesting to note that not a single one of those people have died from the virus but somehow they are more "at risk" than the residents of the nursing home



I wonder about this claim. How does your wife know that More than half of the providers have had the virus? Just curious. 

It’s actually not that easy to know unless they were tested (PCR off a swab). Remember there is no usable antibody test. And if somebody were positive then they probably quarantine for two weeks or so if not sick, and then longer of course if sick. I struggle to understand how A tightly integrated system like a hospital doesn’t fall apart if more than half of its providers have to check out for at least two weeks over a span of 6 to 8 months. Something doesn’t make sense in this story. 

Disclosure: I am myself a front line healthcare provider and have worked almost exclusively with covid pts in 2020. And yes i was vaccinated in Dec, going for part II in a few days. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## rwm (Jan 1, 2021)

"Remember there is no usable antibody test." Curious why you say this? Is there a problem with the testing that is currently available? You can get such a test here for $80 or free if they perform it as part of a blood donation. There is good data that antibodies are present in convalescent serum for greater than 8 months.
BTW somehow they measured antibody titers during the clinical trials for both current vaccines and they believed that data so certainly there is some kind of accurate antibody test available. If there is a specific test that is flawed, please let us know your thoughts.
Robert


----------



## Asm109 (Jan 1, 2021)

I will also throw out that there is some evidence getting covid does not provide permanent immunity.  There are people who have gotten sick with covid twice.  I think giving the health care workers a vaccine to improve their chances of not getting covid a second time is a good use of vaccine.  The number of health care workers is a small percentage of the population so you are not depriving many people of a dose.


----------



## rwm (Jan 1, 2021)

"I will also throw out that there is some evidence getting covid does not provide permanent immunity."
There is definite evidence that getting either vaccine does not provide full immunity or permanent immunity since they are 95% effective. One strategy: if you know for sure you had Covid based on an antibody test you could hold off on the vaccine for 6-12 months to see how the results shake out. In a year there will be a lot more safety and efficacy data and one vaccine may stand out as superior. I think the CDC is terrified of people taking this approach because of people who are "certain" they already had the virus when in fact they did not. I see that logic (by CDC) but I am not sure it is fair to young people who have already convalesced. They have very minimal risk.
Robert


----------



## pontiac428 (Jan 1, 2021)

I got the Moderna shot two days ago. Nothing other than a sore shoulder to report. I am fortunate to have received it through work. I hope they can roll this out to everybody quickly.


----------



## mksj (Jan 1, 2021)

There is no vaccine that is 100% effective and there are a multitude of factors and variables that you cannot draw any specific conclusions. You also need to look at the outcomes and severity of infections in the treated vs. placebo, and there was a significant difference. In the Pfizer trial, the few individuals that did develop COVID did not require hospitalization vs. some on placebo.

Normally, and this may be the case in other countries more so than the US, there are post marketing surveillance reporting which looks at adverse effects (serious) to try to determine side effects (like anaphylaxis)  that occur in very low frequency that your sample size needs to be in the millions and if further specific recommendations can be made. When you look at the trial data for both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines they do what is called an intent to treat analysis, which in general is that if you received treatment, 1 or more doses you are counted in the analysis and often if you are lost to follow-up that is considered an endpoint or failure. It varies on how the data is reported and analyzed, but the primary and secondary endpoints are set before the trial starts. We are also dealing with a virus that has a high mutation rate and selective pressures will cause it to mutate quickly.  To say that a vaccine will be effective against X number of mutations, I do not know of any science that supports that theory and probably just statistically modeling that can be anything you want it to be.

Data on COVID incidence for the Pfizer and Moderna studies as aggregate data from Dose 1.



The US ranks very poorly in having a systemic plan and guidance for who gets vaccinated, distribution, priority, notification, etc. The CDC has set guidelines but the states seem to do it all differently in each state and most healthcare providers in the community do not have a clue of how and when. The current guidelines are:
CDC recommends giving COVID-19 vaccine in phases:
1a: Healthcare personnel and Long-term care facility residents
1b: Frontline essential workers and People age 75 years and older
1c: People aged 65 through 74 years and People aged 16 through 64 years with underlying medical conditions and Other essential workers








						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov
				




The 1a ranks Healthcare personnel and Long-term care facility residents in the same rollout. There may be some logistical issues with the cold storage and distribution that requires distribution points to be major hospitals st this point. The Moderna product is a bit more easily stored and probably accounts for the differences  in who is receiving one or the other vaccine. As far as the option to be vaccinated or not, that is an individual right, but employer's may have specific guidelines depending on risk to other's that one may be in contact with. There is also the question of determining previous history of COVID.

As far as the COVID testing kits and positivity, this is a very murky area, in that we talk about specificity and sensitivity of the tests, they vary widely and also when one becomes positive. The current PCR type are the most specific and sensitive, ironically many people that test positive  are after the infectious period of the virus. They are still useful as a trend to the of the virus in the population, but clearly only represent a fraction of the total number of individuals that have had COVID, in particular when you factor in the number of asymptomatic individuals. Having had previous exposure to COVID, and survived, does not tell/factor in the risk for a recurrence from a different mutation and also it is unclear as to how this will compare to those vaccinated. If you look at the current CDC recommendations for individuals that had a previous history of Herpes Zoster, they still recommend individuals to get the Shingrix vaccine which is 97% effective at preventing herpes zoster (shingles) in folks over 50. I have run a number of these clinical trials and often you would see shingles recurrence in those not vaccinated.





						Herpes Zoster Zostavax Vaccine Recommendations | Shingles | CDC
					

CDC recommends a single dose of herpes zoster vaccine for people 60 years old or older. Zostavax vaccine is approved by FDA for people age 50 years and older. However, CDC does not recommend routine use of herpes zoster vaccine in people age 50 through 59 years.




					www.cdc.gov
				




So it is all a matter of choice, worthwhile to know that at least there are effective vaccines available and that the vaccination programs have started. It is helpful for those who have been vaccinated to share their experience positive or negative.


----------



## Aukai (Jan 1, 2021)

Thanks for the write up Mark, I had close to zero side effects as you could possibly get. I even had to force range of motion to even feel the injection site.


----------



## rwm (Jan 1, 2021)

I really don't mean to sound argumentative. I find all this discussion quite interesting.
I think you are making my point by saying " they still recommend individuals to get the Shingrix vaccine which is 97% effective at preventing herpes zoster (shingles) in folks over 50 ". In other words, they do NOT recommend the vaccine if you have already had the disease until some decades (40 years?) later.  There are vey few instances where a vaccine gives better immunity than the actual disease. In this case, the mRNA vaccines expose you to a more limited set of antigens than actual infection. It does not make sense that the vaccine would give better immunity against a mutated strain and in fact, it is probably worse. Having said that, if you are older or have risk factors, I would not screw around with this virus! I really think there is going to be one vaccine that becomes the clear winner over time. I wish I had the luxury of waiting!
As an aside the antibody tests are getting better.








						Roche and Siemens COVID-19 antibody tests shine in FDA accuracy roundup
					

Abbott's tests seemed to perform slightly worse than the best serology assays but comparably to kits from some other leading diagnostic players such as Beckman Coulter.




					www.medtechdive.com
				



Robert


----------



## mksj (Jan 1, 2021)

The incidence of shingles increases with age, but it is also a factor of immune competence. When I treated HIV patients, it was often one of the intial presenting symptoms in an otherwise healthy young individual. Immunity and the immune system is a complex issue, and having had exposure to HZV zoster does not provide prevention of a future recurrence, so it is the reason they recommend vaccination. The risk/incidence vs. cost are a factor in determining the age at which it is recommend. But there are recommendations for other vaccines much earlier such as HPV vaccine. In contrast, exposure to multiple proteins from a virus that may be bound to cells or fragments is more likely to result in autoimmunity and viruses are constantly mutating and finding ways to evade the immune system. The design and delivery of the vaccine, is an evolving science. In this case they seem to have achieved a very high efficacy, how this compares to individuals that have already had COVID remains to be seen. I agree that there is very little information on COVID reinfection, but there are documented cases. In HIV neither the immune system, nor any vaccines to date has been effective in minimizing the development/progression of infection. There is no simple answer.

In medicine there is nothing that is absolute, as I like to say just shades of grey. Ironically there are many treatments that have been approved, that years later the efficacy came into doubt, or long term ramifications were found. Between the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine, there is no clear superior candidate that I see from an efficacy point of view and the current data available, I prefer the latter because I do some consulting for them and feel their science is sound. The same (mRNA) vaccine has been used and is being developed for a numerous other indications, so this is not the first occurence of this technology.


----------



## koenbro (Jan 1, 2021)

rwm said:


> "Remember there is no usable antibody test." Curious why you say this? Is there a problem with the testing that is currently available? You can get such a test here for $80 or free if they perform it as part of a blood donation. There is good data that antibodies are present in convalescent serum for greater than 8 months.
> BTW somehow they measured antibody titers during the clinical trials for both current vaccines and they believed that data so certainly there is some kind of accurate antibody test available. If there is a specific test that is flawed, please let us know your thoughts.
> Robert



There are a lot of science prerequisites for a conversation like this. I am sure there are lots of direct-to-consumer antibody tests; the reason I said “there is no USEABLE antibody test” is because it is not clear how to interpret the result, and how it informs action. Suffice it to say that hospitals do not rely on antibody tests for clinical decision-making. 

Trials can use them as part of efficacy measures. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ArmyDoc (Jan 1, 2021)

Had my first vaccine (pfizer) on the 17th.  Due for my next one on the 7th.  Had some very minor soreness for 36 hours.  Not really more than I would expect from just getting an IM injection.  Certaianly note as painful as yellow fever or anthrax vaccines were.  My daughter had hers yesterday.  She says she feels achy and sore all over.


----------



## ACHiPo (Jan 1, 2021)

mksj said:


> The incidence of shingles increases with age, but it is also a factor of immune competence. When I treated HIV patients, it was often one of the intial presenting symptoms in an otherwise healthy young individual. Immunity and the immune system is a complex issue, and having had exposure to HZV zoster does not provide prevention of a future recurrence, so it is the reason they recommend vaccination. The risk/incidence vs. cost are a factor in determining the age at which it is recommend. But there are recommendations for other vaccines much earlier such as HPV vaccine. In contrast, exposure to multiple proteins from a virus that may be bound to cells or fragments is more likely to result in autoimmunity and viruses are constantly mutating and finding ways to evade the immune system. The design and delivery of the vaccine, is an evolving science. In this case they seem to have achieved a very high efficacy, how this compares to individuals that have already had COVID remains to be seen. I agree that there is very little information on COVID reinfection, but there are documented cases. In HIV neither the immune system, nor any vaccines to date has been effective in minimizing the development/progression of infection. There is no simple answer.
> 
> In medicine there is nothing that is absolute, as I like to say just shades of grey. Ironically there are many treatments that have been approved, that years later the efficacy came into doubt, or long term ramifications were found. Between the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine, there is no clear superior candidate that I see from an efficacy point of view and the current data available, I prefer the latter because I do some consulting for them and feel their science is sound. The same (mRNA) vaccine has been used and is being developed for a numerous other indications, so this is not the first occurence of this technology.


Outstanding summary.  Thanks!


----------



## MontanaLon (Jan 1, 2021)

koenbro said:


> I wonder about this claim. How does your wife know that More than half of the providers have had the virus? Just curious.
> 
> It’s actually not that easy to know unless they were tested (PCR off a swab). Remember there is no usable antibody test. And if somebody were positive then they probably quarantine for two weeks or so if not sick, and then longer of course if sick. I struggle to understand how A tightly integrated system like a hospital doesn’t fall apart if more than half of its providers have to check out for at least two weeks over a span of 6 to 8 months. Something doesn’t make sense in this story.
> 
> ...


Well, it isn't rocket science. One of the jobs which falls under the wife's job is infection control and emergency operations. Since the beginning they have been monitoring closely the number of infections through testing. At first they only tested symptomatic cases but as the test became more available they went to testing everyone with pt contact twice a week regardless of symptoms or contact. Of course anyone who presents with symptoms can be tested at any time. And the result is that more than 50% of the providers have tested positive over the last 9 months. Of course the number of actual infections is likely higher as they certainly missed some at the start before the mandatory widespread testing who were asymptomatic.

Now, I don't know which hospital you work at but do they not give vacation time to the staff? Because virtually everyone at the hospital here can be expected to be off for 2 weeks every 6-8 months and there is no breakdown of care during any normal year. Now, this was far from a normal year and in fact from March to May there were more people furloughed from the hospital than have been sickened. That coincided with the peak of infections of HCP's so replacing a provider who was infected was as easy as picking up the phone and calling one who had been furloughed. There was never a time when patient care suffered because of the virus. Patient care did take a serious whack when the state suspended all elective procedures in March. And of course the patients themselves cancelled many needed appointments due to not wanting to go to the hospital and get covid. 

What is odd is of all the statistics floating around about where people are being infected, hospitals and primary healthcare providers seem to be absent. Anyone can pull up the stats on the county website on what the contact tracing has shown and see that nursing homes, correctional facilities and home seem to be the places where the virus is most often transmitted to another person but healthcare other than nursing homes is left out of the picture.


----------



## koenbro (Jan 2, 2021)

MontanaLon said:


> Well, it isn't rocket science. One of the jobs which falls under the wife's job is infection control and emergency operations. Since the beginning they have been monitoring closely the number of infections through testing. At first they only tested symptomatic cases but as the test became more available they went to testing everyone with pt contact twice a week regardless of symptoms or contact. Of course anyone who presents with symptoms can be tested at any time. And the result is that more than 50% of the providers have tested positive over the last 9 months. Of course the number of actual infections is likely higher as they certainly missed some at the start before the mandatory widespread testing who were asymptomatic.



Thanks for the extra details. It’s a very interesting data set and I hope they will publish it one day in a peer reviewed format. 

I remain unconvinced about hospitals being some big source of danger. In fact I think they are some of the safer places you can be due to all the policies and procedures in place. Don’t think people catch covid in hospitals. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MontanaLon (Jan 4, 2021)

koenbro said:


> Thanks for the extra details. It’s a very interesting data set and I hope they will publish it one day in a peer reviewed format.
> 
> I remain unconvinced about hospitals being some big source of danger. In fact I think they are some of the safer places you can be due to all the policies and procedures in place. Don’t think people catch covid in hospitals.
> 
> ...


Odd, I don't ever recall "policies and procedures" being on the list of things that prevent infections in hospitals. If that were the case then we wouldn't have 1 in 10 patients in hospital settings getting an infection of some sort during care in a hospital. Hospitals are where sick people go. Sick people, and those not sick are the ones spreading infections and that is in spite of a multi-layered policy and procedure set which is approved and mandated by the CDC. 

It is great you don't think people catch covid in hospitals, the media has succeeded in propagating a myth in at least 1 case.

If people aren't getting covid infections in hospitals then why have they locked hospitals down to the point that you cannot even visit a loved on who is dying from something other than covid? Seriously, that doesn't even pass the most basic sniff test.


----------



## koenbro (Jan 4, 2021)

I am not sure how to respond.

I have been an attending physician for almost 20 years, and every day I reach out for to advice to my peers about various questions, and they solicit my advice in the same way. In that sense we  "get schooled" and "school" each other (to use the forum vernacular) many times daily, as part of normal decision-making.  In that culture, one is not losing face for being wrong, and there is no gratuitous defensiveness in those conversations. Quite the opposite, the humility inherent in asking for advice and be willing to be proven wrong is the currency of trust in these professional exchanges. Needless to say, we seamlessly defer to each other's niche expertise.

Against this background, I come to this forum to learn as a home hobbyist, welder, fabricator and aspiring machinist. Not here to do CME,  journal clubs, or M&Ms, so I am a bit baffled by what we are trying to achieve. 



MontanaLon said:


> It is great you don't think people catch covid in hospitals, the media has succeeded in propagating a myth in at least 1 case.



I promise you, I am not learning about my own field of expertise from the local ABC affiliate or some cable talking head.



MontanaLon said:


> If people aren't getting covid infections in hospitals then why have they locked hospitals down to the point that you cannot even visit a loved on who is dying from something other than covid? Seriously, that doesn't even pass the most basic sniff test.



The public is not catching covid from hospitals precisely because of restricted visitation. I think you are confusing cause and effect here. 



MontanaLon said:


> Odd, I don't ever recall "policies and procedures" being on the list of things that prevent infections in hospitals. If that were the case then we wouldn't have 1 in 10 patients in hospital settings getting an infection of some sort during care in a hospital. Hospitals are where sick people go. Sick people, and those not sick are the ones spreading infections and that is in spite of a multi-layered policy and procedure set which is approved and mandated by the CDC.



What does it mean you don't "recall"? Did you once know lots of stuff about nosocomial infections and they lapsed from your memory? My experience suggests that policies and procedures and the institutional culture they build and sustain are the reason why nurses, respiratory therapists, dialysis, EKG and radiology technicians, and others who deal with covid in person have not been dying en masse from it.  OTOH nosocomial infections are a very complicated topic, and I do not have either the deep expertise or the willingness to discuss it here.


----------



## Tozguy (Jan 4, 2021)

MontanaLon said:


> If people aren't getting covid infections in hospitals then why have they locked hospitals down to the point that you cannot even visit a loved on who is dying from something other than covid?


I am not a doctor or health care worker but can easily see the lack of logic in that statement.


----------



## rwm (Jan 4, 2021)

NC is in the thick of it now. Our hospital has 120 Covid inpatients out of 450 beds! They have cancelled elective procedures that might require admission overnight. There are no ICU beds. Not sure what they are going to do about trauma.
Robert


----------



## NCjeeper (Jan 4, 2021)




----------



## Aaron_W (Jan 6, 2021)

Well I just got the Pfizer vaccine, the one that has to stay very cold. Same one my wife got a few weeks ago. 

She went in for her second dose, and I guess they had a no show, so they had an extra dose that had to get used up. There is only a short shelf life once it is out of the freezer.  Since I was just out in the car, and am a firefighter (so high on the list of people to get it) she offered me up as an arm to put it in. Hopefully I don't have the response my wife had, but it is sounding like that is not too common.


----------



## Larry$ (Jan 6, 2021)

Interesting. I had no idea people could be affected that way by PEG. I used to use PEG 1000 to treat wet wood to prevent cracking.


----------



## Tozguy (Jan 7, 2021)

Hungh?


----------

