# Machining Work for an "Artist"...Is It Possible?



## Phil3 (Feb 18, 2018)

First, let me explain the title, and then my question.  I am working with someone on a project that requires machining of some parts.  We are friends, brought together by this person's desire to construct a project and my eagerness to use my lathe, mill, etc., to make some parts.  All good, except for one thing.  This person likes to "design" on the fly, making decisions about dimensions, locations, measurements, etc., *at the same time* the part is taking shape in the machine. 

This other other person has a rough mental concept of what the final part and assembly of parts should be.  For instance, drilling a hole.  Where, how deep, hole diameter questions are all pretty much determined by eye-balling the part (in the milling machine), and only THEN deciding or modifying the answers to those questions.  If the hole diameter looks a little too small after drilling, drill it slightly bigger.  If a piece of aluminum is machined to 1/4 (0.250") thick, it may be taken out of the vice, examined, and then, "let's make it 0.050" thinner", etc.  This goes on for any and all machining operations.  There are rarely any drawings and at best, I might have a sketch, which seemingly constantly changes.  As you might expect, it is impossible to machine anything without this person being present to make design decisions simultaneous with the machining of the part.  This project will be made up of several parts.  

Call me a purist or a perfectionist, but I find this maddening...I want a drawing!  Complete with dimensions, tolerances, etc.  The person says they are an "artist".  I see that now, that approach resulting in their hands constructing something as directed only by a mental concept in their head that changes and evolves as the part takes shape .  Maybe I am wrong, but I think that approach is just impossible for machining.  Maybe the artistic approach works if one is sculpting something, like a statue, but I fail to see how this can work in a machine shop environment.  I have pushed for 3D CAD drawings, but this appears to be the complete antithesis of the artistic approach.  

I am not sure this partnership will work, but before I become insistent on what I need and the way this has to work, am looking for other perspectives.  

Thanks.

Phil


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## markba633csi (Feb 18, 2018)

Let him do it!  Just make sure he pays for any damage he does. 
Seriously, I had a boss like that once and I often wanted to strangle him. OK for prototyping but he never stopped with the changes even as we
were well into production.  I'm retired now and happier.
Mark
ps what kind of parts are these?


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## Phil3 (Feb 18, 2018)

markba633csi said:


> Let him do it!  Just make sure he pays for any damage he does.
> Seriously, I had a boss like that once and I often wanted to strangle him. OK for prototyping but he never stopped with the changes even as we
> were well into production.  I'm retired now and happier.
> Mark
> ps what kind of parts are these?



Hi Mark,

Thanks for your reply.  The person, in my opinion, is not safe around power tools.  I have seen this demonstrated already on the mill and and table saw.  As a result, I have already made it clear, only I operate the power tools.  Paying for the damage is one thing, but I do not anyone injured while in my shop. 

The parts are generally aluminum blocks and flat stock, plastic, and some wood.  

Phil


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## markba633csi (Feb 18, 2018)

I'm chuckling but I know it's not a laughing matter.
What I was asking was, what is this thing you are building- art or functional item? It seems like your friend isn't good at picturing shapes, sizes, dimensions- maybe you should make balsa wood models first?  Are there strength issues that would dictate minimum thickness and size which you could point out to him ahead of time?
You could also point out that most machinists demand a drawing of some kind (even if it's in one's head) before starting a job, and don't allow many changes once cutting has begun
Mark


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## mikey (Feb 18, 2018)

Personally, I would not do it, even if you want to learn more. If you know how to drill a hole then how is drilling it one size larger going to teach you anything? If you can machine a part to 1/4" thickness, how does taking another 0.050" off teach you more? There are better ways to learn machining than to being taken advantage of. This guy is not your friend but if you think he is now, he won't be when you're done.

If he is willing to do it as a "cost plus plus" job, now maybe that might be worth the time, wear and tear on your equipment and aggravation. You could take a relaxed, peaceful approach to it while the cash piles up. If he does then charge him for every tool for the price you paid to buy it plus a percentage, all the material, wear and tear and your labor. If he won't do it this way then I would say goodbye and don't come back.

I've been on the receiving end of guys like this. Now I know better. Kick him out of your shop now, before homicide enters your mind.


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## den-den (Feb 18, 2018)

Lots of people work like your "Artist" does, but they are not machinists.   He needs someone to do the work, whether that someone is you or not is your decision.  I understand your frustration but he may not.


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## chips&more (Feb 18, 2018)

Hi and welcome to the HM. I would get a 3D printer and make whatever the person dreams up. Then making and re-making is no big deal…Dave.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 18, 2018)

That is not at all an uncommon working style for creative arts, ceramics, painting, woodcarving etc. It is very common to start with a concept but to keep working the piece until it feels right.

It is about as opposite to working crafts like machining or carpentry (measure twice cut once) as you can get.


I could very easily sit down at my lathe and just create something interesting looking. It would drive me absolutely nuts doing it for somebody else. I don't imagine I would be very satisfied from the other end either.


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## C-Bag (Feb 18, 2018)

I straddle both worlds, artist /mechanic/welder and now machinist. I rarely use plans but never start on anything I don't have a clear picture in my head of. And there are always "knowns" that are like the pivots for which the rest of the design has to take shape around. This is how I've always worked and it's frustrating for those who need plans. But I worked best with those I could explain what I need and line them out with enough to keep them busy while i took care of the sketchy stuff.  As long as they did what I needed like I told them we worked great together.

Personally like Mikey and the others have pointed out, I could never work with a guy like that. These supposed artist types are just flakes. I KNEW early on asking somebody else to do what I should be doing for myself was a recipe for a mess so I slowly built up my machine tools. For me, designing by drawing or especially CAD just cross wires me and the creative idea just goes away. I have to have speed and momentum and asking somebody else do the work while trying to "feel" is like trying to take a shower with a rain coat on. It sounds like the guy should not be around machinery too so now way would I turn him loose with my equipment. Like Mikey said, bail before you kill him or he tries to use a machine and hurts you. YMMV.


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## middle.road (Feb 18, 2018)

Ah, the curse of of working with an Artist. As Aaron mentions, that's how they normally do their tasks. Alway fluid and changing.
Don't know if would necessarily call them flaky - they just operate with different mediums. 
Myself, normally I have to do up a sketch and if I really want to complicate it I'll do up a drawing.
My creativity is limited to a straightedge, compass and a pencil so to say. If I were handed a hunk of wood and asked to carve something we'd end up with a bunch of shavings. I'm amazed at the artists in and around this area that carve a bear out of a hunk of tree trunk with a chainsaw and hand grinder.
A friend of ours does stained glass and that's the same thing. She'll cut and re-cut a piece of glass until it is just right, and then puts its all together into some breath-taking in my opinion.
Your Artist friend just doesn't understand the non-flexible nature of metals and machining...


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## JPigg55 (Feb 18, 2018)

Hey Phil, Is this a friend of yours ???
If so and you don't want to just tell him no, you might try explaining to him that without a drawing or model to work from, the cost could rapidly go up. Wasted material, tooling (might have to buy a tool/mill you don't have and then not need because he changes his mind), wasted time  because you need to set up the piece again because  he wanted to handle it out of the vise, etc...
If he's an artist, one would think he could either make a clay model or, with help, make a CAD rendition. That would at least give you (and him) a starting point to work with. Changes could be made on later revisions.
Could also prototype this project out of wax or some other material that could be re-molded/re-used, faster to machine, less wear and tear on machines and tooling, lower final cost.


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## MattM (Feb 18, 2018)

This is easy.  I once had a CPA.  When I came into his office to discuss taxes we would talk for some time about the usual; how you doing? any new guns? been hunting? hows the wife? let's go out and have a beer after.

When the BS was done he would hit a big stop clock on his desk and say, "The money starts flowing my way right now".  And from that moment on it was all business.  After we concluded business he would hit the stop button and we went out for that beer.  He billed me to the minute for time "on the clock".  Of course that wasn't his entire bill he had other work to do in preparing my return but at least it was good to know he wasn't billing for "BS" time.

Tell the "artist", "My hourly rate is $XXX.00 and the clock starts now.  I'll make and remake anything within my ability while the clock runs".


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## higgite (Feb 19, 2018)

If his masterpiece HAS to be made of machined metal which is beyond his artistic ability, you might suggest that he find a medium which he can handle, like the previously mentioned balsa wood, or clay, or origami, or, or, or... and have him bring you his finished creation in that medium so you can physically measure and replicate it. He gets to do his artistic magic as his creative juices flow and you get to machine something in a halfway sane way and he gets to take credit for it. Otherwise, I've heard that flying a kite is a somewhat artistic activity that you might suggest he try. 

Tom


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## cjtoombs (Feb 19, 2018)

You know, he could make it in a CAD program, make all the adjustments he wants, and then hand that over for you to make.  I recomend fusion 360.  It would be free to him (assuming his art business does less than 100k per year).  The whole concept of workholding has probably not occured to him, I expect, so don't expect him to draw something that will be easy to build.


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## Eddyde (Feb 19, 2018)

Art and craft divided, you the craftsman and they the artist.
It is not uncommon for artists to hire additional help to craft their work. Richard Serra's _Torqued Ellipses_, are probably the most extreme examples of such an arrangement. Imagine the crew in a shipyard bending 2" thick 12'X40' steel plates into the artists vision. It might be a difficult arrangement but it might also be worth it in the end.
It is what it is, perhaps frustrating at times but if you agreed to do it, I would try to see it to completion.


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## [X]Outlaw (Feb 19, 2018)

Been there done that...would not do it again! "Artsy" types of work are a real pain for me. I used to do quite a bit of cosmetic parts for local car guys. They only ever have an idea of what they want and leave the details to you, so you spend hours CADing the part up then machining it only for them to tell you "this looks great!!...BUT lets change this". Rinse and repeat that like 5 times.

I did charge for my design time and every part I made but that process is a real drag to me.

Its different than prototyping work (which I love) where you have a set of parameters/goals you would like your part to meet, you may have to do a couple design changes along the way but at least you could see where you are headed. Art type work is a never ending story.


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## JPigg55 (Feb 19, 2018)

cjtoombs said:


> You know, he could make it in a CAD program, make all the adjustments he wants, and then hand that over for you to make.  I recommend fusion 360.



Is this a "One off item ?" If not, another option is eMachineshop (https://www.emachineshop.com/). It's a basic 2D CAD program available for free download and he could submit it for bids to produce many of them, unless you plan to make them for him. eMachineshop does do 3D renderings as well.


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## Phil3 (Feb 19, 2018)

I am limited on what I can say about this project, but can say we are making a prototype which will be made of multiple parts and assemblies. Hopefully, it would be something where there is a demand for it, and would be manufactured in quantity.  This is not like a sculpture or anything of the sort, but a functioning mechanical thing that a person uses.  It absolutely can be clearly defined and laid out in a CAD drawing, and in my opinion, definitely should (and will be mandatory if manufactured in quantity).  But, my friend is making parts with me, made to specs only he knows and changes in his head as the chips fly.  Asking for a dimension is met with uncertainty.  It does drive me crazy.  

I do not know 3D CAD, and really want to learn it (I have Alibre Pro 2014), and found motivation to learn it with this project, until I found out the approach my friend wants to use.  

Phil


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## Tony Pisano (Feb 19, 2018)

Even for an hourly rate, some jobs are not worth doing and some people are not worth working for. If you're into the artistic aspect, it might be enjoyable. If you aren't enjoying it, I would say find a useful project to build that will improve your skills.


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## RandyM (Feb 19, 2018)

Phil3 said:


> I am limited on what I can say about this project, but can say we are making a prototype which will be made of multiple parts and assemblies. Hopefully, it would be something where there is a demand for it, and would be manufactured in quantity.  This is not like a sculpture or anything of the sort, but a functioning mechanical thing that a person uses.  It absolutely can be clearly defined and laid out in a CAD drawing, and in my opinion, definitely should (and will be mandatory if manufactured in quantity).  But, my friend is making parts with me, made to specs only he knows and changes in his head as the chips fly.  Asking for a dimension is met with uncertainty.  It does drive me crazy.
> 
> I do not know 3D CAD, and really want to learn it (I have Alibre Pro 2014), and found motivation to learn it with this project, until I found out the approach my friend wants to use.
> 
> Phil



Phil,

Actually, it is your friend that needs to learn a CAD program. He is the one doing the designing. Because if you learn CAD now, he will only be looking over your shoulder as you do the design, not unlike the situation you have now just using different equipment. You'll have the same frustrations.


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## Phil3 (Feb 19, 2018)

Good point.  I do want to learn 3D CAD for my own projects, but for this friend, it may be the same story as you say, the only difference, us being in the office vs the shop.  I just got an e-mail from him and he said he is working on a sketch for one part.  Alleluia!  

Phil


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## Aaron_W (Feb 19, 2018)

Phil3 said:


> Good point.  I do want to learn 3D CAD for my own projects, but for this friend, it may be the same story as you say, the only difference, us being in the office vs the shop.  I just got an e-mail from him and he said he is working on a sketch for one part.  Alleluia!
> 
> Phil



If you learn cad, you could do the basic work and then show him how to make the modifications to it. Certainly safer than turning him loose on your lathe.


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## RJSakowski (Feb 19, 2018)

As others have said, introduce your artist friend to Fusion 360.  He can design to his heart's content and when he is finished hand you the model.  I suspect that he will find Fusion intriguing.  

In the business world, when a "job shop" is contracted  to machine a product, a design is agreed upon and work proceed on that design.  Any changes after that are considered engineering changes and there is usually a steep price to pay for those changes.  Consequently, in any collaborative effort, all partiers strive to refine the design as much as possible before the first cut is made.


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## Boswell (Feb 19, 2018)

one possibility is to not let him into the shop while you are making the parts. This will require he communicate in advance (i.e. sketch, CAD, something). Then you can bring the finished part back and discuss what needs to be changed and update the Sketch/CAD drawing. Rinse and Repeat as needed.  You might still have a lot of iterations but you will get to do the actual machining in peace and the Artist will learn how to communicate a 3D vision on paper.


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## FanMan (Feb 19, 2018)

Reminds me of some of my jobs in my consulting engineering days, working with industrial designers who had a vision of how the product should look, but were less clear on how it could actually be made  to _work_.  But the endless revisions were generally lucrative when I was charging by the hour... 

OTOH, some of those guys are good.  I was working on a marine galley stove project that my customer called in an industrial designer on.  I did the original design, worked out how all the parts could work in a very tight space it was kinda a neat design and everybody liked it, but even though he liked it my customer said it looked too "engineered" and I suppose he was right.  The ID/artist came in and made a couple of extremely subtle changes (slightly curved a couple of straight lines, etc.) and I have to admit it looked much better, like something  you'd expect to find on the high end yachts it was intended for.


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## markba633csi (Feb 19, 2018)

I can see that. Open up an Apple computer, get past all the stylish plastic and it's just another circuit board


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## silence dogood (Feb 19, 2018)

It's not uncommon for an artist to make his sculpture out of clay, wax, styofoam, or whatever and then have someone else cast it in bronze.


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## JPigg55 (Feb 19, 2018)

FYI, there's a good tutorial on this forum for using the eMachineshop 2D CAD program: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/cnc-from-sketch-to-part-the-way-i-do-it.19633/
While it's only a 2D program (last I looked), the thread is easy to follow and I caught on fast.
I'm getting the impression your friend is worried about someone stealing his ideal, hence not wanting to give up much info.
If he's thinking about trying to patent it, he might want to research it some.
I had similar thought on a couple project I have in mind. What I found is that patents are RELATIVELY inexpensive to obtain, they are very expensive to enforce. Plan on hiring a patent lawyer just for the application.
IMHO, open sourcing it is a much better option and applying for a copyright, much cheaper way to go.
While a copyright won't prevent other businesses from producing and selling his idea, they can't call it the copyright name.
If it's something a business wouldn't be interested in producing, anyone with the capability to reproduce it for themselves can and probably will depending on price and ease of construction.


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## magicniner (Feb 20, 2018)

I had a guy (who was unable to see the difficulty for me to make it for him) pestering me for a part, I suggested some free CAD packages for him to download and learn with the promise I'd make the part if he provided a good solid model to work from. 
I believe that particular project isn't coming back any time soon ;-)


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## Fabrickator (Feb 20, 2018)

I don't know, his philosophy works for me.  If your not comfortable doing what he wants, teach him to do it himself.


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## wrmiller (Feb 20, 2018)

I do the 'artist' thing all the time, and it works well for me. But then I'm left-handed and think in pictures. YMMV. 

I can't be bothered with taking the time to make drawings, because to be honest, I don't need them. If you do, fine. But don't bash someone who does things differently than you do.


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## RandyM (Feb 20, 2018)

I think the whole point of this is that someone else is controlling your hands. I don't know anyone who is comfortable doing that no matter the labels you may want to use. I really don't think that it gets any simpler than that. And when you think about, I do not know of any artists that use someone else's hands. A painter learns to paint, a sculptor learns to sculpt, and a potter learns to mold clay.

Now, with the items that can be made by machining, drawings can and should be made if you are to convey your information to another individual to make them. Like wise with drawings to be made, there is a process for that. Sketches and models need to be made to convey the concepts to you so that you can make working drawings. Those ideas can then be refined and the drawings changed. But to have someone controlling you to control the machines is very frustrating and uncomfortable. And like I said, I don't know of anyone with the demeanor to allow that situation to exist for very long, again labels aside. Interesting discussion everyone.

I guess I have not seen any bashing going on in this thread. Someone will need to specifically point it out to the staff. It just looks like another healthy discussion here.


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## wrmiller (Feb 20, 2018)

An 'artist' or 'tinkerer' (as I like to think of myself) does not delegate. How would anyone else know exactly what I want, when I myself am not sure? 

EDIT: I wasn't accusing anyone of bashing a member here. I was thinking of the OPs dislike of the methods his friend/artist uses, and 'bash' was not the word I should have used. Sorry. Disagree would have been more appropriate.


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## FanMan (Feb 20, 2018)

RandyM said:


> And when you think about, I do not know of any artists that use someone else's hands. A painter learns to paint, a sculptor learns to sculpt, and a potter learns to mold clay.



Yes and no.  It depends on your definition of "artist".  What about, for example, an architect?  Many would argue that Frank Lloyd Wright was an "artist", I would, but he didn't build his buildings himself.  Enzo Ferarri has been described as an artist whose medium is not paint and canvas, but automobiles.  And do the sculptors who put giant welded steel sculptures in parks do _all_ the fabrication themselves?   Often, the act of creation is concurrent with the fabrication, but it doesn't always have to be that way.


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## eugene13 (Feb 20, 2018)

wrmiller said:


> I do the 'artist' thing all the time, and it works well for me. But then I'm left-handed and think in pictures. YMMV.
> 
> I can't be bothered with taking the time to make drawings, because to be honest, I don't need them. If you do, fine. But don't bash someone who does things differently than you do.


 Me too


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## RandyM (Feb 21, 2018)

FanMan said:


> Yes and no.  It depends on your definition of "artist".  What about, for example, an architect?  Many would argue that Frank Lloyd Wright was an "artist", I would, but he didn't build his buildings himself.  Enzo Ferarri has been described as an artist whose medium is not paint and canvas, but automobiles.  And do the sculptors who put giant welded steel sculptures in parks do _all_ the fabrication themselves?   Often, the act of creation is concurrent with the fabrication, but it doesn't always have to be that way.



Again, you are focusing on labels and definitions. I feel this discussion is beyond that at this point. And well, I did say I didn't know any, which means that I haven't met the ones that don't mind. I am also a little disappointed you chose just one small line from my entire post to put it out of context. The rest of my post explains exactly your point.

Also, your examples are at a whole different level and situation than what this thread is discussing. Industry has these types of situations defined with procedures and processes to make them work. I think we can easily get carried away increasing the scope of this discussion. I don't think that is what the OP intended though.


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## brino (Feb 21, 2018)

FanMan said:


> What about, for example, an architect? Many would argue that Frank Lloyd Wright was an "artist", I would, but he didn't build his buildings himself. Enzo Ferarri has been described as an artist whose medium is not paint and canvas, but automobiles. And do the sculptors who put giant welded steel sculptures in parks do _all_ the fabrication themselves?



I am not sure which side of the discussion you are backing......with all your examples I am certain that if not full drawings, then _at least_ sketches were made to convey the concept to the builders. The artists vision has to be communicated to the builder.
-brino

BTW: What a great, friendly, self-moderated discussion. I am enjoying it. 
I see many of these characteristics in myself and others that I do work for.


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## eugene13 (Feb 21, 2018)

I visualize what I want to build, I work out the steps to build it, I find the material that will accomodate the shape (s) I'm building and I translate those thought to the material, does that make me an artist, or an artisan.  Shoot, I always thought of myself as more of a philosopher.


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## Ironside (Feb 22, 2018)

Labels are useless when describing those of us collectively involved in this hobby. We are the "Breakfast Club" of those who work with their hands. Each one of us is an "artist & laborer", a "teacher & student", a "craftsman & intellectual", a "perfectionist & a hack" and a "leader & follower".


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## RandyM (Feb 22, 2018)

Ironside.

Did we scare off the OP?


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## tertiaryjim (Feb 22, 2018)

It's the same old story. Someone wants you to machine a part and is able to describe their vision in great detail but their ideals 
aren't conveyed by their words and they have no idea what's involved in machining. They refuse to produce legible drawings 
or answer questions in an understandable manor because you should share their vision.
Usually, what they propose isn't reasonable and perhaps not possible or wouldn't work without a great deal of further engineering
which they feel you should provide.
I'm happy to help friends out but I don't do mind reading and will walk away if they want me to do so or spend a great deal of time engineering,       or to absorb their expenses.


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## Robert LaLonde (Feb 22, 2018)

First the answer to your title. 

YES.  An artist can use any media for expression.  Many machinists and craftsmen are artists in their own right.  The artistic part of their work is just so subtle that it can not usually be appreciated by the masses.  That is not to say that art for the masses or even the art snobs can not also be machined.  It can, but often it must be done by the artist himself. 

In answer to your post.  I do custom work all the time.  Often I have little more than a 2D crude sketch of an organic shape.  Sometimes not that much.  However when I do it the customer gives me all their information and I try to make the image on the computer match the image inside my head, and I try to make the image inside my head match the image inside their head.  I do NOT stand there taking feedback in real time and shift on the fly.  That would be very frustrating to me.  I think if I felt the person I was working with had tru artistic talent (and the right attitude for it) I would try to teach them the skills rather than reach inside their mind and try to express their thoughts for them. 

I recall I took a few art classes over the years.  I think most of the teachers were just lazy (**cks).  They didn't teach about styles, skills, and techniques.  They told us to do random abstract crap.  They practically refused to teach us any skills styles or techniques other than the most rudimentary tripe.  In high school I had one section of one class that taught me a lot.  We did about a month on oil painting and the teacher taught us how to stretch and prep canvas, block out a painting, lay down background colors to show through to give highlights or change tones.  Then she told us all to copy a master.  I chose a DaVinci, and others chose other masters.  Of all the tripe projects I did (and won some awards for at the county fair) that is the only one I still have.  It hangs on the wall in my house and I see it every day. It was never "judged" and never won an award.  

Anyway, I feel that teachers have stunted artists by not teaching them technique, style, and forcing them to develop skills.  If they truly have a talent for abstract art they will break out of the rote work on their own.  If they don't you really do not want them to.  Well, I don't anyway.  I've been to a lot of museums and I am amazed at how much garbage is out there that shows no skill or technique and does not evoke any true emotional response except maybe confusion and irritation. 

So my answer might be to hone your skills by teaching them to the artist.


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## RobertHaas (Feb 22, 2018)

As a contractor by vocation, I am constantly involved with bringing a "designer" "Architect", "Artist" 's   vision to reality. In most cases it is a compromise where the reality of costs and time slam head long into the clients requests. 

The very best advice I can offer is to have a conversation explaining that they may need to do a bit more "homework" before you can widdle out their design in hard real materials. 

Time is money, they may embrace the starving artists mentality, no reason you should too.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 22, 2018)

I don't get anything about the OP that he thinks his friends methods are wrong, so much as they are having a clash of styles. 

It is a little like bit like that team building exercise where there is a drawing of a several shapes. One partner has the picture, the other has to draw it based only on a verbal description from their partner. Only in this case instead of drawing it is metal turning at 2000 rpm.


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## Nogoingback (Feb 22, 2018)

wrmiller said:


> I do the 'artist' thing all the time, and it works well for me. But then I'm left-handed and think in pictures. YMMV.
> 
> I can't be bothered with taking the time to make drawings, because to be honest, I don't need them. If you do, fine. But don't bash someone who does things differently than you do.




There's no problem with doing things differently.  But the OP's "friend" is asking for a favor, and a fairly substantial one at that.  If the "artist"
wants to do his own thing, great: he is free to buy a machine, tool it up and learn to use it.  Or, he is free to pay a machinist by the
hour to do design and prototyping at the same time.  But, since he's asking for a favor  a certain amount of courtesy to the OP seems like
a good idea.  Artistic license is no excuse for selfishness.


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## agfrvf (Feb 22, 2018)

Honestly whimsy is what 3d printers and cad is for. After you nail it down you then make it out of metal.


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## brino (Feb 22, 2018)

Nogoingback said:


> If the "artist" wants to do his own thing, great: he is free to buy a machine, tool it up and learn to use it. Or, he is free to pay a machinist by the hour to do design and prototyping at the same time.



........and since it's concurrent "design and prototyping" it should be double-rate.
That should take the sting out of working someone else's way.
-brino


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## Phil3 (Feb 23, 2018)

I am the OP, and was insistent on drawings.  He provided a 2D drawing with dimensions.  We did some work together in the shop, but it is becoming clear it is best I work alone.  Still too much of on the fly adjusting by him.  It is tiresome, slow, and frustrating.  So, I am now left with a chunk of black Delrin to machine.  Now that I see the desired end product, I can devise the best path to produce it and return it.  The time is becoming heavier than I want, so will tell him I will do it, as a favor, but my time is valued, and the best use of it, for this, is to leave me be while I do what is necessary.  

Phil


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## BROCKWOOD (Feb 23, 2018)

On the driving you crazy portion of this collaboration: Limit his time with you. 4 hrs a day at top billing! Just stipulate that as other work comes in, you reserve the right to cut his time back in order to keep the economy going.


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## brino (Feb 23, 2018)

Hi Phil,
I hope you don't feel you thread was "hijacked", I feel it has been an interesting discussion into human nature.
Since you have been left alone to do some work, it sounds like you have already come to a better understanding with this friend.
I wish you happy machining and *much *less frustration.
-brino


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## Phil3 (Aug 28, 2018)

This is an old post, but I am the OP, and thought I would add the final outcome of working an artisan type, who prefers to "help me" operate power tools in my shop and design in his head, on the fly, as parts are taking shape.  You know, "yeah, ok, let's take a little more of there..., I think it will look better that way", kind of thing.  A few things emerged.

One, I told him he is no longer allowed in my shop...ever.  Secondly, mandatory drawings..., no exception.  Third, if I do not feel I can do the work to MY standards or what is called for on the drawing, whichever is tighter, I won't.  I personally do not like turning out crude work.  Some weeks ago, he gave me drawings to do some work, and I returned them, along with the parts, telling him I did not have the skills or equipment to do it.  Phil's free-labor shop cannot do it...hire someone.  

I think my blood pressure has gone down, as has my ranting and raving about this guy.  Previous people were right.  With artistic types, "run, don't walk"!  

Phil


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## mikey (Aug 28, 2018)

Good for you, Phil!


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## C-Bag (Aug 28, 2018)

Thanks for the final update. I was wondering if you were one of those zen masters that could deal with the chaos that seems to follow those types or you told the guy to get lost. I can take direction from someone who knows what they are doing but not from those that have no clue. The absolute worst for me is constant changes and it seems this guy is purposely trying to keep you in the dark too. Been there, done that and it never ended good always with me telling them don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out the door.


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## tweinke (Aug 28, 2018)

There is quite a difference between having a vision in your own head and making the part and trying to transfer someone else's vision to a part. Any thing other then a dead simple part needs at least a crude drawing that is understood by both parties. I like making the parts for someone where they have a set plan and allow me to decide how to achieve the end result whith no back seat machine operator.


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## stupoty (Aug 28, 2018)

markba633csi said:


> I'm chuckling but I know it's not a laughing matter.
> What I was asking was, what is this thing you are building- art or functional item? It seems like your friend isn't good at picturing shapes, sizes, dimensions- maybe you should make balsa wood models first?  Are there strength issues that would dictate minimum thickness and size which you could point out to him ahead of time?
> You could also point out that most machinists demand a drawing of some kind (even if it's in one's head) before starting a job, and don't allow many changes once cutting has begun
> Mark



Balsa model is a good idea, some balsa cement and sharp knife etc.


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## brino (Aug 29, 2018)

@Phil3,
Thanks for letting us know the ending. I appreicate it.

Maybe this artist should buy a 3D-printer and make his own parts. He can modify and print 'til he's happy.

-brino


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## Tony Pisano (Aug 29, 2018)

We had an occasional artist come in our shop. Most weren't too bad, and some were really interesting to work with, but I think if it were my business and I was in a home shop setting, I wouldn't want to deal with the possible aggravation


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## Phil3 (Aug 30, 2018)

I did recommend a 3D printer as "brino" recommended, but the guy did not want to spend the time learning it.  Did not want not want to learn SketchUp either, which is free, to make a simple drawing.  At my insistence, he did produce a 2D drawing, on paper with three views, but Good Lord, he could have spent less time by learning and making a drawing out of SketchUp.  Oh, but wait, he has no printer either, and could not make work the one he pulled from the apartment trash bin, so would have to e-mail me the file so I could open it and print it here.  

I experienced a LOT of frustration with this man's simultaneous "design/build" approach, which absolutely mandated his physical presence in my shop to do the work (since what he wants continuously evolves).  I asked him if thought any other machine shop would allow that.  He conceded they would not.  I said, "And yet, they build prototype parts all the time for customers, but that won't work for you.  Does that tell you something"?  

And dangerous?  Wow...  How would you react if using your mill turning the Y axis to cut something, and then a person just starts turning the X axis wheel on their own to help?  How about "helping" by shielding me from flying aluminum chips, by holding up a rag between me and the spinning cutting tool?  Yes, the air movement pulled in the rag, and ripped it out of his hands.  I told him in no uncertain terms, "HANDS OFF"!  But, you know what, on the next visit, he had his hands on the mill again!  I then told him he was not allowed in the shop, EVER.  

The man is frustrating, but also dangerous.  "Run, don't walk", was indeed very good advice.  

Phil


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## C-Bag (Aug 30, 2018)

I had the same type who decided he didn't trust anybody to rebuild his VW engine even though he couldn't even change the oil. So because I was doing side work to put myself through college he decided he was going to "supervise" me even though by that time I'd been doing engines like that for almost 10yrs. After he let a jack down when he was supposed to pump it up (!!! On a floorjack !!!!)I told him my shop time, then doubled it if he "supervised" and quadrupled it if he "helped". I would have refused the job if I'd known what I was getting into but I'd already started. Only the big $$$$ deterred him. But it was a valuable lesson and I never forgot or let myself get runaround by that type again.

I'm really glad you got out of there unhurt. Grabbing a handwheel in the middle of a cut......wow. Then waving a rag around a cutter, crazy.


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## tcarrington (Aug 30, 2018)

This is a very interesting and was hoping for a follow up and happy conclusion. Looks like you got there. Hope all the comments and suggestions helped as much as you indicate. I have gone in my shop with a pretty good idea and made something and then redesigned it later, made a good drawing and finished the corrected part, which was so much better than the "artistic" version.
Kudos to you for standing firm (and surviving all the antics beforehand)


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## P. Waller (Sep 2, 2018)

My experience over the last 30 years with Artists and Architects is this.
Money up front for what they want today. Come tomorrow they may have a different vision (-:

Free beer
Tomorrow


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