# Shaper Video, Rudy Kouhoupt



## Ulma Doctor (Jan 14, 2017)

i found a video on youtube, worth its weight in gold





i found it after being loaned a copy on dvd


----------



## Uglydog (Jan 14, 2017)

Thanks Ulma.
Downloading now.
Thank you!!

Daryl
MN


----------



## Uglydog (Jan 15, 2017)

This video was a huge help. 
I've picked up several shaping texts and I've found a handful of online videos of varying quality.
Rudys video is a great educational opportunity!!
Coincidentally, today's adventures include my first vertical shaping cuts. Really, I'm fabbing a trunnion which requires multiple angles. 
Needless to say I'll be modifying my plan for both my horizontal and vertical cut. 

I think I finally understand how angling the clapper box effects the cut and lifts off the work. It's so obvious once it's understood!!! 

Question on internal shaping:
Rudy replaced the lantern with a shop made integral lantern/boring bar instead of a tool holder which holds a boring bar dangling below a lantern.
Rudy states that his set up more rigid and easier on the clapper.

Can anyone who implicitly understands geometry comment on what happens to the lift off of the tool and pressures on the box. I'm guessing that the longer leg of the triangle created by the length of the boring bar from the lantern would also extend the hypotenuse. This would directly increase the lift of the cutting tool on the backstroke. 

Would this be advantageous on larger machines? 
Would this be advantageous on deep grooves?
And by contrast if working in a small hole advantageous to shorten the distance between the lantern and cutting edge.
What am I missing? 
Am I making this to difficult (again)?

Huge thanks,
Daryl
MN


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Jan 15, 2017)

Hi Daryl,
i can't claim to be an expert, but i may be able to interject a couple thoughts....
you described the boring/slotting tool arrangement, your analogy is correct- the longer the boring bar, the higher the tool lift on the return stroke.
if you look at Rudy K's boring bar, it's length was short.
the shorter the bar, the shorter the lift would be on the return stroke- the converse is also true
the clapper box only claps if it needs to, if there is little rearward pressure on the tool the tool will skate on the work
if the cuts are deeper, the tool may receive more resistance from the work as it is traveling rearward and subsequently the lift would be higher

as with any cut, rigidity will dictate depth of cut.

custom boring bars can be made to give the tool some clearance as well, to limit the tool lift for long internal cuts.
the cutter angle being more acute rather than perpendicular.
i think the most important part may be, the boring bar being of sufficient size to make the cut, but not interfere with the work.


----------



## Uglydog (Jan 15, 2017)

That's helpful!
I hadn't yet thought about the length of the boring bar as I was focusing on the use of a boring bar held in an Armstrong type tool holder.
Such a holder hangs much lower than Rudys design. 

Either way we have two legs of a triangle. 
Stick out from the clapper (parallel to the top of the knee), and vertical to the column.
Seems that the longer each of these get the move the hypotenuse might potentially become with ease of deflection during the back stroke.
Rudys design seeks to eliminate if not significantly reduce one of the legs (vertical to column).

Sorry, but my Fire/EMS background is shouting "why"?
Is this optimal? Why is it optimal?
Please note that I am not intending to disrespect Rudy, or anyone else by asking why. Just very curious.

Daryl
MN


----------



## talvare (Jan 15, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> .Question on internal shaping:
> Rudy replaced the lantern with a shop made integral lantern/boring bar instead of a tool holder which holds a boring bar dangling below a lantern.
> Rudy states that his set up more rigid and easier on the clapper.DarylMN



I made a similar tool holder for my shaper for doing internal  keyways. I did it to allow access of the tool into smaller bores, but I assume that Rudy's statement about it being more rigid and easier on the clapper relates to the reduction / elimination of the "lever arm" created as the tool is extended below the center line of the tool holder. The closer the cutting edge of the tool is to the center line of the holder the less leverage there is, thus less stress. I also noticed when using this new holder that there is somewhat of a tendency for the tool to lift on the cutting stroke. It seems that this lifting effect can be reduced via the shape of the cutting tool. Also, I learned a valuable tip from one of Kieth Fenner's videos when he was experiencing this effect while cutting an internal keyway on his shaper. He solved the problem by turning the work up side down and cutting the keyway at the top of the work. This method eliminates the possibility of tool lift on the cutting stroke.

Thanks for posting the video Mike. I've seen it before, but it was good to watch it again.

Ted


----------



## Glenn Brooks (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks for loading the video - Rudy was a wonderful resource.  Pretty amazing how organized you needed to be to make actual film clips in those days.

I missed a beautiful little Atlas shaper last year at an estate sale.  Similar to what Mr. K shows in his film clips. Already spoken for when I arrived.  $500.  All the machine surfaces were polished and painted looked like it had just come off the show room floor.  Why oh why didn't I get off my duff and drive over there earlier in the morning!  Haven't seen one since, locally ...

Glenn


----------



## Reeltor (Jan 15, 2017)

I would like to download a copy of the video to my hard-drive.  How does one download from YouTube?  Free is good


----------



## Uglydog (Jan 15, 2017)

RealPlayer offers "free" software.
I'm sure they are now tracking all my posts at HM or some other scheme. But they've never charged me.
There are likely other options, perhaps better, this is what I've used.
I think this might be a link. Maybe. Read carefully.....
http://www.real.com/resources/download-video/

Daryl
MN


----------



## Reeltor (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks Daryl,  at least I can trust RealPlayer not to be full of virus/malware.
Mr. Google has a number of free programs or aps as they call them but I'm leery of downloading a program just because it's on the Internet.

"it's on the Internet it must be OK"  LOL

thanks again,

Mike


----------



## brino (Jan 15, 2017)

Reeltor said:


> at least I can trust RealPlayer not to be full of virus/malware.



as x-files taught us Trust no one!

upload any questionable installers or any file to:
https://www.virustotal.com/
to have it automatically scanned by ~56 different virus/malware scanners.

I believe Google now owns them too, but the results do not seem tainted by that.......yet.......and yes I am paranoid. 

Sorry for the slightly off-topic post, but I do believe computer security is both extremely important and often difficult to achieve.

-brino

(PS: remember to backup your hard-drives!)


----------



## Uglydog (Jan 15, 2017)

Nothing in the shop is ever off topic.
I may never find the box I put it in.
But, someday I'll wish I knew where I put it!!!!!!!!!!

Daryl
MN


----------



## Doubleeboy (Jan 16, 2017)

I can not imagine that the owners of the rights to Rudy's videos are very happy about someone posting them on you tube.


----------



## CluelessNewB (Jan 16, 2017)

Anyone know who made that shaper he is using?


----------



## VSAncona (Jan 19, 2017)

That is a very instructional video. But I have to say that as I was watching it, I kept wondering to myself if he was ever going to actually cut any metal.


----------



## Reeltor (Jan 19, 2017)

CluelessNewB said:


> Anyone know who made that shaper he is using?



I don't know the make of the shaper; but I do love that big flywheel.


----------



## Reeltor (Jan 19, 2017)

For those with experience using shapers;  have you heard of the 3/8" rule that Mr. Kouhoupt talks about when setting the vertical location of the clapper box?

Is this "rule" for larger shapers too, say for a 16" 5,000lb G  & E?


----------



## francist (Jan 19, 2017)

I don't believe the "3/8 inch rule" will apply to your larger machine. I've run across some references from Cincinnati and others that say no more than 1" extension of the tool slide, so it really depends (and is somewhat proportional) to your machine size. Here's a snip from an old training manual, and although it does not specifically reference a particular machine size I believe they are assuming that the machine being used will be roughly 16" or thereabouts. 

As with anything though, you may choose to play it safer depending on how much you DON'T want to break your machine!







-frank


----------



## Reeltor (Jan 19, 2017)

Thanks Frank,

Yes, a shaper cuts with brute force, better let it take some extra passes across the work and not take a chance of breaking anything.

Mike


----------



## benmychree (May 4, 2017)

talvare said:


> I made a similar tool holder for my shaper for doing internal  keyways. I did it to allow access of the tool into smaller bores, but I assume that Rudy's statement about it being more rigid and easier on the clapper relates to the reduction / elimination of the "lever arm" created as the tool is extended below the center line of the tool holder. The closer the cutting edge of the tool is to the center line of the holder the less leverage there is, thus less stress. I also noticed when using this new holder that there is somewhat of a tendency for the tool to lift on the cutting stroke. It seems that this lifting effect can be reduced via the shape of the cutting tool. Also, I learned a valuable tip from one of Kieth Fenner's videos when he was experiencing this effect while cutting an internal keyway on his shaper. He solved the problem by turning the work up side down and cutting the keyway at the top of the work. This method eliminates the possibility of tool lift on the cutting stroke.
> 
> Thanks for posting the video Mike. I've seen it before, but it was good to watch it again.
> 
> Ted


This is the way it is normally done, with the tool on top; also most shapers that have been used for this sort of work have had setscrews tapped into the sides of the clapper box near the bottom and matching dimples in the clapper itself; these are tightened up to immobilize the clapper when doing internal shaping, which is a pain in the ass at best.
When I had to chance to but a Pratt & Whitney 6" vertical shaper I jumped at it; they are a wonderful tool for internal and external shaping; I also have a shaping attachment for my B&S #2 universal mill; it has the advantage of stroking at any angle 90 degrees to the mill spindle axis, that is in line with the mill table travel.


----------



## C-Bag (Dec 17, 2017)

Looks like the vid has been deleted    I'm glad I got to see it a couple of times as it was very well done. 

For the record, I do believe in copyright but for the original person and their family. Not some predatory corp or other leech with no other motivation than capitalizing on others IP. 

Mostly I wanted to get details of Rudy's vise. I guess my stock Atlas vise needs to be reground as since I've gone to clamping directly to the table I've been getting perfectly square and accurate cuts.


----------



## Bob Korves (Dec 17, 2017)

VSAncona said:


> That is a very instructional video. But I have to say that as I was watching it, I kept wondering to myself if he was ever going to actually cut any metal.


When you are working with a shaper, it is best if you are not in a big hurry...  Wonderful and versatile machines otherwise.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 17, 2017)

C-Bag said:


> Looks like the vid has been deleted    I'm glad I got to see it a couple of times as it was very well done.
> For the record, I do believe in copyright but for the original person and their family. Not some predatory corp or other leech with no other motivation than capitalizing on others IP.
> Mostly I wanted to get details of Rudy's vise. I guess my stock Atlas vise needs to be reground as since I've gone to clamping directly to the table I've been getting perfectly square and accurate cuts.



I believe once the inventor dies , his gifts should be public domain as he can no longer profit from them .
only _usurpers_ can profit at that point


----------



## C-Bag (Dec 17, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> When you are working with a shaper, it is best if you are not in a big hurry...  Wonderful and versatile machines otherwise.



It is true, but how many machines do you have that you can do other projects at the same time while doing a run on the shaper? For me the Rudy K. Vid gave with all the background of how the machine actually worked was a boon in that unlike the verticle mill and lathe, the adjustments are not so self explanitory. Like how to adjust the strokes of the arm and ratchet are way more involved.


----------



## dlane (Dec 17, 2017)

For me it says ,video unavailable


----------



## Mikelkie (Dec 17, 2017)

Me too


----------



## C-Bag (Dec 17, 2017)

Yup, that's why I restarted the thread, the vid has gotten deleted for some reason.


----------



## Dabbler (Dec 18, 2017)

try this copy -I'm not sure it is as complete as the original post, but...


----------



## C-Bag (Dec 18, 2017)

That's the second half of the vid. Lots in the first half. Wonder why they would delete the first half and not the second?


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 18, 2017)

$$$$$$$$


----------

