# Newbie Question About Buying a Bench Mill



## BKDavis (Jan 29, 2021)

So my basic question, after doing a fair amount of research on models available from several vendors, is about advantages/disadvantages of tilting heads.

The models I'm looking at are from LMS (6500 or 6550), Grizzly (G0704) and Precision Mathews (PM-25MV). The LMS has a fixed head and the Grizzly and PM have heads that can rotate. 

I can see potential benefits and negatives for both designs and I'm wondering what you've learned from experience. Also any thoughts on selecting among these models based on other criteria would be appreciated. 

The space I have available is pretty limited, so I think these are the largest machines I can consider for now.  Thanks in advance.


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## Mitch Alsup (Jan 29, 2021)

I can tell you that the tilting head is a "b!tch" to get trammed back in perfectly again after you use it.

The alternative to the tilting head are vises that tilt, rotary tables, sine plates,...


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## DavidR8 (Jan 29, 2021)

In that class of mill I would not want to have a tilting head. They need all the rigidity they can get. That said, the PM25 has a good reputation so perhaps it's the exception to the rule.


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## BKDavis (Jan 29, 2021)

Mitch Alsup said:


> I can tell you that the tilting head is a "b!tch" to get trammed back in perfectly again after you use it.
> 
> The alternative to the tilting head are vises that tilt, rotary tables, sine plates,...


I don't think I would ever use the tilting head feature unless it was necessary to tram it. As DavidR8 states, there are alternatives (even the PM manual suggests finding an alternative rather than tilting the head).

I guess what I'm really I'm wondering is if they ever drift out of tram while in use. Is this something I should be concerned about?


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## DavidR8 (Jan 29, 2021)

I think there's the possibility that it could drift if something was not adequately snugged down.
Also bear in mind that because there are slots to allow for titling, there's less overall casting to secure the head to the column.
I don't know that it's a major consideration on this form factor but something to consider.
I recall seeing a head casting crack on one of the videos from Meanwhile In the Garage series.
Different class of mill of course but a titling head nonetheless.


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## BKDavis (Jan 29, 2021)

DavidR8 said:


> I think there's the possibility that it could drift if something was not adequately snugged down.
> Also bear in mind that because there are slots to allow for titling, there's less overall casting to secure the head to the column.
> I don't know that it's a major consideration on this form factor but something to consider.
> I recall seeing a head casting crack on one of the videos from Meanwhile In the Garage series.
> Different class of mill of course but a titling head nonetheless.


Hilarious and impressive. I doubt I would ever test the head with a hydraulic jack!


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## Mitch Alsup (Jan 29, 2021)

BKDavis said:


> I don't think I would ever use the tilting head feature unless it was necessary to tram it. As DavidR8 states, there are alternatives (even the PM manual suggests finding an alternative rather than tilting the head).
> 
> I guess what I'm really I'm wondering is if they ever drift out of tram while in use. Is this something I should be concerned about?



I have had mine drift out of tram once:: this took place over 6 months of use, almost always cutting with the table moving in the same direction, and was just enough to notice when using a fly cutter with a 4" cut diameter. The tram was off by a couple of tenths at most.......you may not consider this enough off to worry about.


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## BKDavis (Jan 29, 2021)

Mitch Alsup said:


> I have had mine drift out of tram once:: this took place over 6 months of use, almost always cutting with the table moving in the same direction, and was just enough to notice when using a fly cutter with a 4" cut diameter. The tram was off by a couple of tenths at most.......you may not consider this enough off to worry about.


Thanks, that's good input.  What mill do you have?


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## Mitch Alsup (Jan 29, 2021)

BKDavis said:


> Thanks, that's good input.  What mill do you have?



G0730


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## Aaron_W (Jan 29, 2021)

I don't think the tilting head is a major concern, and it does add an ability even if not a common need. My Clausing has a head that tilts, swings, and extends / retracts. I haven't had any issue with it moving without being asked, and it is pretty easy to get it back into position if I were to move it. Different system being a round ram / round column knee mill, but I would think the tilting head on the PM25 / G0704 is at least as stable. That said the lack of a tilting head would not cause me to take a machine out of consideration either, as there are ways to create tilt other than tilting the head.

Between the three I'd be leaning towards the PM25 myself. With smaller mills even an inch or two can make a difference and the PM25 gives you a bigger table and a little more travel in the Y and Z axis which are fairly limited on all of these smaller mills. The PM25 is a little bit cheaper than the 6500 and quite a bit cheaper than the 6550. The G0704 and PM25 are quite similar but the PM seems to get better reviews from the people who have them.

As it sounds like space is tight don't forget to factor in table travel side to side when figuring out the space you will need around the mill.


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## AmericanMachinist (Jan 30, 2021)

On my grizzly mini mill the column tilts rather than just the head/spindle.   This means I can't tilt the head so the cutter is at and angle, and lower the thead into the work.   A mill with a spindle that can rotate (and move) independently of the Z axis is probably less limiting.  One consideration.


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## markba633csi (Jan 30, 2021)

I wouldn't get the Grizzly 0704.  Yes they are popular with the cnc crowd and cheap, but the head has gears that break at inconvenient times
The PM 25 has a better belt drive
-Mark


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## T Bredehoft (Jan 30, 2021)

I've had PM25 for 3 or 4 years, only used the 'tilting head' to tram the head, once. first time. Its still good.  In reality, until I read this I'd forgotten it tilted. Its far easier to tip the part.


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## Pcmaker (Jan 30, 2021)

I'd buy the PM833T if I were you


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## BKDavis (Jan 30, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> I don't think the tilting head is a major concern, and it does add an ability even if not a common need. My Clausing has a head that tilts, swings, and extends / retracts. I haven't had any issue with it moving without being asked, and it is pretty easy to get it back into position if I were to move it. Different system being a round ram / round column knee mill, but I would think the tilting head on the PM25 / G0704 is at least as stable. That said the lack of a tilting head would not cause me to take a machine out of consideration either, as there are ways to create tilt other than tilting the head.
> 
> Between the three I'd be leaning towards the PM25 myself. With smaller mills even an inch or two can make a difference and the PM25 gives you a bigger table and a little more travel in the Y and Z axis which are fairly limited on all of these smaller mills. The PM25 is a little bit cheaper than the 6500 and quite a bit cheaper than the 6550. The G0704 and PM25 are quite similar but the PM seems to get better reviews from the people who have them.
> 
> As it sounds like space is tight don't forget to factor in table travel side to side when figuring out the space you will need around the mill.


Thanks for the advice Aaron. I was initially considering the tilting head a disadvantage but was hoping to hear comments such as yours that it was not really an issue. And I am leaning toward the PM25, so glad to hear your advice there.


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## BKDavis (Jan 30, 2021)

T Bredehoft said:


> I've had PM25 for 3 or 4 years, only used the 'tilting head' to tram the head, once. first time. Its still good.  In reality, until I read this I'd forgotten it tilted. Its far easier to tip the part.


That's great to hear. Thanks.


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## BKDavis (Jan 30, 2021)

Pcmaker said:


> I'd buy the PM833T if I were you


Wow, I hadn't looked at that model. It looks like a great machine... something I might aspire to down the road. Thanks.


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## Aaron_W (Jan 30, 2021)

If you are more space driven than budget driven, you also might consider the PM727M or V and 728VT. These are similar in size to the PM25 but more room in the vertical axis and generally just better, but also more expensive.

Like many I have space issues, and ended up having a Clausing 8520 fall into my lap, pretty much the biggest mill I could have managed. I was looking at all of those on your list, as well as the 727 (728 wasn't available yet), the larger PM30 and some small knee mills. Height was my most critical concern with a mill, I'm in a basement with 6-1/2 foot ceilings and milling machines tend to be taller than wide.

I have been able to look over a PM25, and it was the major contender for me, when the Clausing came along. I was lucky enough to be mill shopping when somebody I know bought a bigger mill, and I was able to buy their old one.

I think the PM25 strikes a nice balance between size and cost, a lot more mill than a mini-mill, but not much more expensive.


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## DavidR8 (Jan 30, 2021)

@BKDavis You might want to drop into the Precision Matthews sub-forum here. There's quite a number of PM mill owners there, plus the Precision Matthews folks drop by from time to time.


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## BKDavis (Jan 30, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> If you are more space driven than budget driven, you also might consider the PM727M or V and 728VT. These are similar in size to the PM25 but more room in the vertical axis and generally just better, but also more expensive.
> 
> Like many I have space issues, and ended up having a Clausing 8520 fall into my lap, pretty much the biggest mill I could have managed. I was looking at all of those on your list, as well as the 727 (728 wasn't available yet), the larger PM30 and some small knee mills. Height was my most critical concern with a mill, I'm in a basement with 6-1/2 foot ceilings and milling machines tend to be taller than wide.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. I had added the PM727V to my list for consideration and will take a look at the PM728VT.


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## BKDavis (Jan 30, 2021)

DavidR8 said:


> @BKDavis You might want to drop into the Precision Matthews sub-forum here. There's quite a number of PM mill owners there, plus the Precision Matthews folks drop by from time to time.


I will do that.


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## JR1945 (Jan 1, 2022)

DavidR8 said:


> I think there's the possibility that it could drift if something was not adequately snugged down.
> Also bear in mind that because there are slots to allow for titling, there's less overall casting to secure the head to the column.
> I don't know that it's a major consideration on this form factor but something to consider.
> I recall seeing a head casting crack on one of the videos from Meanwhile In the Garage series.
> Different class of mill of course but a titling head nonetheless.


I’m new to the forum and this is my first post. I almost immediately stumbled on this thread which had the exact answer I was looking for. Thanks!


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## compact8 (Jan 2, 2022)

My Emco FB2 bench mill has got a tiltable head but so far I have used it just once to cut a slanted rectangular slot on a work piece. In this case the mill was used as a broaching machine so it's not a typical application. For me the major problem of tilting the head is locating. With the tool not mounted parallel to the Z axis, it's very difficult to bring the tool to the desired position relative to the work piece because common locating devices such as edge finders, Z-axis tool setters are not usable. Using a tiltable vise is much easier but the mill head will have to be raised to a higher position which may affect rigidity for light machines.


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## JR1945 (Jan 2, 2022)

compact8 said:


> My Emco FB2 bench mill has got a tiltable head but so far I have used it just once to cut a slanted rectangular slot on a work piece. In this case the mill was used as a broaching machine so it's not a typical application. For me the major problem of tilting the head is locating. With the tool not mounted parallel to the Z axis, it's very difficult to bring the tool to the desired position relative to the work piece because common locating devices such as edge finders, Z-axis tool setters are not usable. Using a tiltable vise is much easier but the mill head will have to be raised to a higher position which may affect rigidity for hobby-grade machines.
> 
> View attachment 390568


Thanks for the reply. I’ve used a mill for several years and haven’t run across a situation that couldn’t be handled without the need to tilt the head.  In all the countless videos I’ve watched I’ve never seen the head tilted. Your picture is the first. Other than the Sieg SX2.7 and derivatives I don’t know of any fixed column mills in the 250-300lb class. If anyone know of others, I’d appreciate the input. Thanks!


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## frugalguido (Jan 2, 2022)

I have tilted the head a couple of times to cut a trough using a regular end mill. All of my mills will tilt the head (Emco and the Deckels). On the Deckel FP-2NC there is a lock to put it back in tram.


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## JR1945 (Jan 2, 2022)

frugalguido said:


> I have tilted the head a couple of times to cut a trough using a regular end mill. All of my mills will tilt the head (Emco and the Deckels). On the Deckel FP-2NC there is a lock to put it back in tram.


Very few new mills available to buy just now even though I could use an upgrade. Guess it will give me some more time to look around. Thanks for all your help.


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## Mitch Alsup (Jan 3, 2022)

JR1945 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I’ve used a mill for several years and haven’t run across a situation that couldn’t be handled without the need to tilt the head.



I think most of us who have angled the head and then gone through the process of tramming in the head again, find ways to avoid doing this in the future.


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