# Tangential tool



## billinecin (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm starting to make one. Purchased ones all seem to use 1/8 or 1/4 tool bits AND are expensive. I want to use 3/8 - just because. Have a piece of John Deere green mystery metal big enough to make the tool from.

Search of this board brings up no results. Has anybody made one? Has anybody bought one? Am I wasting my time? What are your thoughts on ones you've either made or bought?

Thanks,
Bill


----------



## Tony Wells (Mar 10, 2011)

It's a way to hold a tool steel square at a fixed angle to keep you clearances stable and save a lot of grinding. Some people love them. Here's an article:

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/ToolHolders.html

It holds the bit "endways" or "on end" so all you grind is the "face". It is held like a line tangent to the diameter of the part.


----------



## Tony Wells (Mar 10, 2011)

Years ago I built a variation of this, but using drill blank material for radius work in corners. And yes, before you tell me....I know it wasn't a true radius. But it was all within tolerance.


----------



## JimSimmons (Mar 11, 2011)

One of those is on my "must have" list. I've read nothing but good things about them.


----------



## billinecin (Mar 11, 2011)

It's started. Has changed from a green steel chunk about 1" x 2 1/2" x 6" to the approximate desired shape in a whole lot of light cuts on the mill/drill. Some more roughing to do, then finish to fit QCTP. Then try to cut the compound (wrong word?) angles for the tool bit to fit into. Then make a clamp. Then see if I can grind necessary angles on tool bit. Then see if it works. 

At least that's my plan.

So far, just a bunch of simple rough cuts. May get interesting in the days to come.

Bill


----------



## Tony Wells (Mar 11, 2011)

No Bill, that's exactly the right word. Probably the trickiest part of making this tool. If you can, it would be good to take pictures of your setup, and a few along the way for the group. These projects always stimulate thinking on setups and people who have never done work like this often have no idea how to go about it and can learn a lot.


----------



## billinecin (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks Tony. Pictures are being taken. Next step will be to learn how to post them.

Tool is progressing nicely. It's ready for the angles and fitting tool bit to slot.

Bill


----------



## billinecin (Mar 29, 2011)

It's done. Cuts great if I do a good job grinding the tool bit. I have pictures if I can get them to post.

Bill


----------



## billinecin (Mar 30, 2011)

Rattle can. Cheap, easy, available, quick, suits my skill level.

Bill


----------



## rleete (Mar 30, 2011)

mnmh, I've had very good results with a propane torch and used motor oil for blackening parts. Mostly on mystery metals, too.

The best one was a pin I made to repair an airsoft gun for a coworker. I used a 308 stainless steel S.H.C.S., and turned it down. Heat with the torch, and plunge it into the oil until cool. I always do it twice (no particular reason why, it just seems right), and it comes out with a reasonably durable surface that's nicely blackened.

Sorry to hijack the thread. Nice tool holder, Bill.


----------



## 8ntsane (May 11, 2011)

Is this the same thing in this Video ?
If it is, then damn, I need to fire the Mill up and get to makin one of these things. Looks like they use 1/2 Hss bits. And heavy cuts too.

[video=youtube;xUAPrkC7Q-Q] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUAPrkC7Q-Q&amp;feature=related [/video]

Is this guy cutting steel or what here.

Paul


----------



## pdentrem (May 11, 2011)

In my Machinery's Handbook 17th edition there are holders on pg 1565 there is a section called "Solid Sintered Inserts and Their Holders". These are all Tangential tool holders that are setup to use solid carbide blanks. This edition is from before the modern inserts that we are more familiar with. 
I have been looking at these for a while as I have approx 30 kilos of 1/8" diameter 1 1/8" long carbide blanks. I think I am going to make this holder in the new future.


----------



## Tony Wells (May 11, 2011)

Paul, that is a free machining steel, 12L14 or something similar I'd say. That is a tangential tool holder. No reason you couldn't build one.


----------



## 8ntsane (May 12, 2011)

Tony
I think I will build one of those. Im looking around trying to find the details about the angles, like rake and the side angle? if there is any. Must be a few degree,s

It doesnt look like its much problem to build, I just need to find a bit more infro before I get started. I like the idea of only one angle to cut and sharpen on the cutter, That has to save time right there.

Ive heard of these over the yrs, but never paid any attention to them. But , I seen that vid on you tube, yup that got my attention all right. Looks like a very handy item to add to the tool collection.


Paul 8)


----------



## Tony Wells (May 12, 2011)

Rather than reinvent things, Bill should be able to give the specifics of his tool. He had a good setup to mill his. When I have made one, I used the butt ends of carbide endmills and smaller drill blanks, so the structure is a little different, but same in principle. I gave mine 5 deg in both axes. It looks like bill is using a bit more in the one cut I can see his vise index. Looks like about 15 deg. Maybe he'll post his details. I'd think about 5 to 7 deg in both axes would give enough clearance. That should give front and side clearance, then you grind your own rake, to suit material.


----------



## billinecin (May 12, 2011)

Regarding angles involved: Some places I looked said 12 degrees, some said 15, that the 12 was not enough. I ended up 14-15, and it works fine. I don't know if more or less would be better. So far, my only complaint is that sometimes the tool bit slips in the holder. I need to tighten the screw and/or touch up the cutting edge when this happens.

Getting the angles was a challenge with equipment (and knowledge) I have. I ended up clamping a vise in a 4 jaw chuck on a rotary table. Made a tall, ugly stack that worked for me. Surely there is a better way.

Bill


----------



## 8ntsane (May 13, 2011)

After doing alot of shearching around, and reading, I think Im ready to build on of these tool holders. The standard complait it seems to be the tool bit slipping down under moderate cuts.
These tool holders seem to have one thing in commom, and thats what appears to be a single bolt with a washer under it to hold the tool bit.

In the vid I posted, if you look at it closely, the clamp to hold the tool bit looks like its more than enough to do the job. I addmit, it may well be a bit over kill for most, but I think over kill is still better than not enough.

For those of you that have seen the lathe I have, should understand why I would go this route. Im also going to build this to take 1/2 bits. Maybe a bit large for some, but I do use a
CXA tool post most of the time and I use 3/4 tool holders mostly.

I dont really need one of these tool holders, but as mentioned before, Ive never really paid attention to them before. Now I want to make one, just to find out how well they work. Ill get pics posted up of the tool holder when I get into this, should be over this weekend.

Paul  8)


----------



## EarlH (May 13, 2011)

I have one of the Diamond tool holders from Bay Com. It works really well. It comes with a fixture to hold the bit while grinding. The tool itself is a bit on the "rough" side but it does work as advertised. I use it primarily for roughing and then switch to warner hss inserts for finish work.  Most of my turning is 416 stainless.


----------



## 8ntsane (May 13, 2011)

EarlH

If you have the same tool holder as shown in the Video, could you post up some pics of yours? Im interested to see some detailed pics with the tool cutter out, to show the clamping arrangement better. Any and all pics would be good, even the fixture to sharpen the bits, but not a primary concern for me.

Thanks
Paul


----------



## EarlH (May 13, 2011)

ok  I'll find the camera and take some pictures.


----------



## 8ntsane (May 14, 2011)

Earl
that would be great, thanks.

Paul


----------



## ddmunroe (May 23, 2014)

Hi all,
At the risk of sounding daft what is the purpose of a tangient tool holder and what are it's advantages.
(Is it a holder used for when sharpening HSS ?)
)dd


----------



## Rick Leslie (May 23, 2014)

ddmunroe said:


> Hi all,
> At the risk of sounding daft what is the purpose of a tangient tool holder and what are it's advantages.
> (Is it a holder used for when sharpening HSS ?)
> )dd



I think the main advantage of this type of tool/holder is the force applied against the cutter during use is directed downward into the heavy portion of the tool holder versus the force being applied along the slimmer horizontal portion of a conventional tool holder.

There's quite a few threads and info on these tools and homemade holder. Google should turn up some excellent results. And this is also on my 'must build when I get time' list as well. Along with the vertical shear bit.

Some search results:
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/tangential-tool-holder.html
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=712.45
http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/VerticalShearBit.html
http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?t=84313


----------



## ddmunroe (May 23, 2014)

> If the edge dulls just change the height to use a different part of the edge or re-hone when the whole edge is dull. Since the chip slides along in contact with the bit for a fair distance (due to the narrow angle) this promotes heat transfer and wear



Is this another spin off from the tangential tool ..... never have I heard the tool center height was no longer important !

Can read more via this link : http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/VerticalShearBit.html


Thank's for posting​ the article Rick (prior post)


----------



## stevecmo (May 24, 2014)

ddmunroe,

The picture you posted is a shear bit, not a tangential tool.  The shear bit can contact the workpiece anywhere along the angled surface.  They work great for taking really small cuts that result in a great finish.

Steve


----------



## Hawkeye (May 24, 2014)

Shear bits work really nicely, but aren't so good cutting to a shoulder. Tangentials can turn and face from the same position.


----------



## Splat (May 25, 2014)

*Here's* another review of the Diamond tangential toolholder.


----------



## ddmunroe (May 25, 2014)

Splat,
That video is probably the best in explaining and illustrating the tangential tool.
Threading too !!
Much appreciated
dd


----------

