# Lima Motor Rotation how to change



## dgehricke (Oct 18, 2013)

Greetings,
 I have a Burke #4 with Universial table and a Lima Motor 3/4 HP 1200 RPMs it is the original factory gear box motor.
This mill has been sitting in my garage for the last 10years and was never used, Today I started to cut a tool for my Omni tool post
and the motor is running CCW and I switched the wires in the junction box but no luck still runs in the CCW rotation.
The motor is set up for 220 but its a 3 phase motor with a capacitor mounted on the motor so it runs on single phase 220.
Anyone have any ideas as to how I can change the rotation to CW.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.Thanks in advance.

Wally G


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## Codered741 (Oct 18, 2013)

When you say you switched the wires, what wires did you switch?  

If you switch the wire coming out of the capacitor with one of the legs of 220, the motor should change direction.  If you switch the two legs of 220, nothing will change.  

-Cody




dgehricke said:


> Greetings,
> I have a Burke #4 with Universial table and a Lima Motor 3/4 HP 1200 RPMs it is the original factory gear box motor.
> This mill has been sitting in my garage for the last 10years and was never used, Today I started to cut a tool for my Omni tool post
> and the motor is running CCW and I switched the wires in the junction box but no luck still runs in the CCW rotation.
> ...


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## Hawkeye (Oct 18, 2013)

Can you post a picture of the motor and one of the label on it? I've never seen a 3 phase motor with a capacitor on it. If the motor is reversible, it should show on the label. We can guide you through the process.


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## dgehricke (Oct 19, 2013)

I'll get some photos of it up here today and Thanks for the Help.


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## dgehricke (Oct 19, 2013)

Cody,
 The wires that I switched were the wires from the motor.
photos coming today


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## dgehricke (Oct 19, 2013)

as promised here are some photos of the motor and the junction box on the motor.
I finished the cut with the mill running in the direction and it looks like it is climb milling.

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Well I guess not How do you attach photos again,found it.


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## Rbeckett (Oct 19, 2013)

Which way is the spindle turning when you stand in front of the mill?  Clockwise or anti-clockwise?  Could a belt be in need of a twist or turn?  The reason I ask is because it has performed in it's original configuration, so what has changed?  A lot of belts cross over each other and reverse the direction of rotation and some one replaces it with a Napa belt the correct length, but does not put the twist back in when they hook it all back up.  Seen that a few times, unlike a serpentine belt on a car it is possible to install a belt incorrectly and create this issue.  Before I started rewiring I would look into the matter a lot further because the joint between motor and gear box appears to have never been separated as it would if the motor had been replaced at some point in the distant past.  Just thinking out loud, but sometimes the simplest answer is the best....  HTH :')

Bob


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## dgehricke (Oct 19, 2013)

Bob,
 This is not a belt problem the mill only has 2 belts one goes from the motor to the spindle the other belt is on the rear of the spindle which drives the table through a step pulley set up
and a sliding drive shaft which runs a worm gear for table movement when engaged.
Thanks for the hint though every little bit helps. heres a photo of the belt to the spindle


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## dgehricke (Oct 19, 2013)

Forgot to add that when standing in the front of the mill the the motor and spindle are turning in anti clockwise (CCW) rotation.


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## rdhem2 (Oct 19, 2013)

WOW!

A)  Sure looks like a single phase motor to me.  That black plastic gizmo in the peckerhead is an amperage sensing relay.  This item opens the starting circuit when the motor has come up to speed.   3 phase motors do not need/use capacitors.  

B)  If I could read the nameplate we all would know so much more.

C)  Seems it is a horizontal mill.  My time on one is limited but what difference does it make which way the motor/cutter turns,  If it is not right turn the cutter over so the teeth face the opposite direction.  Is this silly thinking on my part?

D)  The motor is 1 phase or 3 phase, it can not be both.  Neat set-up for speed control though.  You've got like 12 speeds on that thing, right?


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## cds4yu (Oct 19, 2013)

It looks like there are two leads going into the motor from each of the line connections.

One will be to the start windings, the other to the run windings.

Switch one set of the leads going into the motor.  You can determine which of the leads going into the motor are a set by measuring with an ohm meter; the sets will have a low resistance, the non-sets will have a high resistance.

To try to make it clearer, the power comes in on the red and black wires.

There are two wires connected to the red wire (in the yellow wire nut).  Label one A and the other B.

There are also two wires connected to the black wire (in the red wire nut).  Label one C and the other D.

Use an ohm meter to measure the resistance between A and C, B and C, A and D, and B and D.

Two of the readings should be low; the other two should be high.

If A and C (and B and D) are low, move A to the black wire and C to the red wire.

If B and C (and A and D) are low, move B to the black wire and C to the red wire.

If none of the pairs are low, or if they're all low, (or if you don't really have two wires going to the motor from the red and black wires) then I have no idea what's going on with the motor.

Good luck!

Carl


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## Rbeckett (Oct 20, 2013)

It was just a thought.  The reason I was grasping at the straws so to speak is that the nmotor appears to be original and if it is, the I would venture to say thet it has been run in that orientation for a long while.  That may even be the reason the Original owner got rid of it in the first place too.  I am one of those who look for the most common and simplest fixes first before I start tinkering with the wiring.  If you could post up all of the info on the date plate exactly as it is shown on the plate we could help determine exactly what motor you have and it's original configuration.  Sorry about the wild goose chase idea, but like I said start simple and work up.

Bob


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## dgehricke (Oct 20, 2013)

rdhem2 said:


> WOW!
> It is a 3PH motor 3/4 hp runs at 1200 RPMs I had a friend of mine install the capacitor it basic give the motor a bump as if it was running on 3ph power.
> A)  Sure looks like a single phase motor to me.  That black plastic gizmo in the peckerhead is an amperage sensing relay.  This item opens the starting circuit when the motor has come up to speed.   3 phase motors do not need/use capacitors.
> 
> ...


The motor is 3 ph running on single phase power thus the need for the capacitor to imitate 3 phase power. I believe its 16 speeds 4 different speed selection and 4 different pulley selections I could be wrong as I have never gotten to that level of use with the mill.

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Rbeckett said:


> It was just a thought.  The reason I was grasping at the straws so to speak is that the nmotor appears to be original and if it is, the I would venture to say thet it has been run in that orientation for a long while.  That may even be the reason the Original owner got rid of it in the first place too.  I am one of those who look for the most common and simplest fixes first before I start tinkering with the wiring.  If you could post up all of the info on the date plate exactly as it is shown on the plate we could help determine exactly what motor you have and it's original configuration.  Sorry about the wild goose chase idea, but like I said start simple and work up.
> 
> Bob


Bob,
 Thanks for taking the time to reply. the name plate is so old and so worn I have to read the little data that I can make out with a magnifying glass,my eyes are getting old too.

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cds4yu said:


> It looks like there are two leads going into the motor from each of the line connections.
> 
> One will be to the start windings, the other to the run windings.
> 
> ...




Carl,
I will give this a try today and get back to you with the results and thanks for the info and help Cory also suggested changing the wire from the capacitor I'll probably try both suggestions today


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## dgehricke (Oct 20, 2013)

Gentleman,
All who posted help and hints it is appreciated. I spent all day working on the name plate for the motor I have attached a photo this is the best I can do with it.
Carl, I tried all the combinations with a VOM digital and Analog after marking the wires as suggested and the reading are as follows,
A to C = 3.19
B to C = 6.7
A to D = 2.537 and fluctuation and dropping
B to D = 6.7
I will switch the wires tomorrow and let you know what happens.
I worked on the name plate for 1 hour just too get what is in the photo, there is another plate which I suspect was the wiring schematic but it is no more its been painted over
but the photo shows the data from the manufacturer.
I also have close ups of the capacitor on the motor it seems to be a start capacitor so here are the photos


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## Rbeckett (Oct 20, 2013)

Amazingly enough if you use a little easy off oven cleaner on a shop rag you might be able to rub a coat of paint at a time off without damaging what lies beneath.  We used to use it to clean our racks before repainting them to keep the chips to a minimum in the coat of paint.  Just a shot that might help a little.  The line with the dropping reading is the one with the cap on it more than likelu.  Just be super carefull and don't get any in your eyes because it is essentially unslaked lye and will burn you badly.


Bob


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## dgehricke (Oct 21, 2013)

Hey Bob ,
 I'm being ultra careful with this thing as I do not want to smoke the motor as its basically irreplaceable,I'll give the oven cleaner a shot I have plenty of it from the dollar store.
It works well for cleaning but very slow at removal of paint. Again Thanks for the hint I'll post back in a day or two with the results and hopefully an image of the wiring.


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## rdhem2 (Oct 21, 2013)

OK, I am with Rbeckett on this one.  Place I used to work had a saying "If it has a wire connected to it, it must be an electrical problem".  Truth is it, is about 95% mechanical and 5% electrical for the fix.  So lets back up and see if we can see the forest for all those trees out there.

The name plate says three phase.  So we must have a source of 3 phase power and just a capacitor is not going to cut it.  The HP and amperage draw is low enough that a VFD would handle the load.  My mill has a BP vari-drive on it so I just use the VFD for the motor protection features, soft start-stop, etc.  Mine is 2 HP.

Looking at the open peckerhead, if it is truly 3 phase what is the black relay box for?  Thermal overload of some kind?  If it is it should open at least two of the three legs to the motor.  Lets pop the end bell off and see where the wires go and if there are things hiding in there we do not know about.

Thinking here, the name plate says dual voltage.  Do we have enough wires to rewire it to 480v thinking it is connected correctly for 240v now?  Could it be a wye/delta like the Europeans like to do?  Does this tell us anything?  I still have more questions then answers.

Does the table feed on that mill only work in one direction?

A three phase motor running on single phase only develops something like 28% of it's nominal HP rating assuming it starts at all.


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## Codered741 (Oct 21, 2013)

rdhem2 said:


> The name plate says three phase.  So we must have a source of 3 phase power and just a capacitor is not going to cut it.  The HP and amperage draw is low enough that a VFD would handle the load.  My mill has a BP vari-drive on it so I just use the VFD for the motor protection features, soft start-stop, etc.  Mine is 2 HP.
> 
> Looking at the open peckerhead, if it is truly 3 phase what is the black relay box for?  Thermal overload of some kind?  If it is it should open at least two of the three legs to the motor.  Lets pop the end bell off and see where the wires go and if there are things hiding in there we do not know about.



A three phase motor can actually be run off of single phase with just a capacitor.  See this.  This is how many DIY phase converters work, which is essentially what he has running on his machine.  The capacitor delays the sine wave of one leg of single phase, just long enough to create a phase shift (as little as 5deg will work), which is enough to create a rotational energy in a three phase motor.  There are many ways to hookup the capacitor, as described in the article.  The motor is not as powerful running this way, about 60%, but it will run.  

That little black box is still a mystery, but I am inclined to believe that it is a thermistor, rather than a relay.  

I still have to go with my original assertion, that switching the wire coming from the capacitor, with one going to a winding, should change the direction of rotation.  See the photo below.  If this does not work, then there is something else going on in the wiring, and you should open up the motor some more and take a look.  



Let us know what you find.  

-Cody


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## Codered741 (Oct 21, 2013)

Can you post a better photo of the mystery black box?  I have a feeling that I might know what it is.  

-Cody


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## dgehricke (Oct 21, 2013)

Here we go, these are the photos of the tag from the motor, the oven cleaner did work but the plate was very difficult to read, but a gentleman over on the burke yahoo group gave me a link to a photo of his plate as he has the same motor.which I have posted here.
The black devise in the peckerhead is marked " Micro Start" made in the USA. I have pulled all the wires and marked them the only thing that presents a problem is the number of wires,
The plate calls for 9 I have 8 and only 2 coming in from the service panel.
I'll check for continuity from the capacitor to the micro start device. I really appreciate all the expertise from every one as I'm sure you have surmised I know very little about electrical problems, but I do want to Thank all for the help thus far.


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## tkingmo (Oct 22, 2013)

Uh, how about get rid of that capacitor and install a VFD? It is a 3 ph motor and should not need the capacitor if run on 4 ph power.


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## dgehricke (Oct 22, 2013)

Uh No its fixed. To all who posted and offered your expertise I Thank You all. The problem was solved this morning. The wires going to the black Micro-start in the peckerhead were switched, there are 3 wires going to the switch 2 are going to the motor and 1 is going to the capacitor so I switched the wires around that go to the motor only,result Clockwise rotation.
I did have to check each wire which I labeled, and even the wires to the cap were disconnected and checked for continuity to be sure the wires were correct and then labeled.
This was a great exercise in electrical wiring and schematics which I didn't have an idea about, again Thanks to all the folks on this forum.

Wally G


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## dgehricke (Nov 10, 2013)

Russ,
Just uploaded Photos for info


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