# Phase II QCTP.  Not what I expected.



## 7milesup (Feb 7, 2019)

Hi guys.   I have a PM1022 lathe with the "standard" chinese QCTP.  I felt it had a lot of slop in the mechanism, including the round part that the handle attaches to.  My brother has an older Jet lathe (40"?) with a Phase II QCTP on it.  It is nice and tight with basically no slop.  The Phase II that I got is absolutely no better than the craptastic Chinese one that came on the lathe from PM.  The only thing that would be better about the Phase II is the center mounting bolt is much more substantial than the mounting system on the originial, but I don't need to pay $225 just for a bigger mounting bolt.  It was purchased through Amazon from Travers tool.  Didn't really want to spend $300+ on just a QTCP but it looks like that is what one must do to get a decent QCTP.


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## ezduzit (Feb 7, 2019)

Very disappointed in the Phase II holder I bought.


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## 7milesup (Feb 7, 2019)

Maybe their QC is going in the tank?


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## Nogoingback (Feb 7, 2019)

When I got my Phase II, it was kind of gritty feeling when I turned the handle.  In the end I pulled it apart and found
almost no lubrication and grunge from manufacturing inside.  After cleaning it up and lubing it, it worked fine.
Make sure the "nut" at the top is tight as well: mine was barely snug.  I know you shouldn't need to do these
things after buying a new tool, but they might help you sort things out.  Mine has been fine since I did them.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 7, 2019)

Chinese stuff often has poor quality control (QC).  Whatever comes off the machines goes into the box unless there are significant visual flaws.  That is part of the reason it is cheaper than an Aloris.  I also have a BXA Phase II tool post set, and it is mediocre -- not awful, not great.  If I or you would have ordered a second one, it may have been just fine.  Mine has worn in and I have adjusted and cleaned it and have become used to it over time, and it now works fine for me.  My approach nowadays is to never pay extra for the so called "premium" inexpensive Chinese products.  You are kidding yourself.  However, some really high quality tooling is made in China, and it gets proper QC and QA.  You also pay a lot more for that.  Currently, I would buy the Bostar from CDCO, which is the cheapest one out there that I know of.  Why pay more when you are rolling the dice?

Or, buy an Aloris...


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## Technical Ted (Feb 7, 2019)

The first one I bought was a Phase II. The second was one from AllIndustrialSupply. The later was much tighter and better feeling and from my experience I would suggest that one. 

YMMV,
Ted


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## Bob Korves (Feb 7, 2019)

ezduzit said:


> ROR! (raff out roud)


The Chinese send rockets to the moon.  They do not make the hardware with cheap tool posts.  Much of the manufacturing equipment used in USA and other 1st world countries is now made in China.  It is not the same stuff that we hobby machinists are buying from Shars, CDCO, All Industrial, and many other suppliers.  We seem to have reached a conundrum where we want ever cheaper stuff, and the importers and manufacturers are filling that need, yet we whine when we get the mediocre or worse products that are unavoidable when pricing is the all important consideration.  The importer/exporter, the manufacturer, the retail seller, and us as buyers are all parts of this loop.  We love the cheap stuff, but hate the poor quality of it.  *TANSTAAFL.  Markets respond when buyers no longer purchase their products, and feed the monster when they do.  An example of  really good products from China that hobbyists purchase is Glacern work holding products:  https://www.glacern.com/ which are made from world wide sources -- including China.

*There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch


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## Firstgear (Feb 7, 2019)

The only way to get really good tooling out of China is when a foreign company (US, Germany etc)provide the design and has QC boots on the ground to drive quality.  The Chinese when left to be a totally Chinese company often has employees where they think “good enough”.  That means it may or may not be 100% to specifications.

When we ***** about something that isn’t quite right, in their mind “it’s good enough”.  Back 50 years ago we used to ***** about the Japanese quality...cars, toys, etc.  it was good enough then.  China hasn’t gone through the make it right the first time change in mentality.  Boots on the ground is the only way to get it.


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## COMachinist (Feb 7, 2019)

I have found it depends where you buy it counterfeiting is not a crime over there. China’s industry are owned by the Commie gov. So they are all phase II no mater who makes them. Most of the factorys are owned by the Army and the stuff from them is junk. The ones that work with the supplyer/resellers tend to be better quality. The BXA I got from PM with my PM-12x36t was junk, it now has my Alais BXA. Untill you have a really top quality QCTP you will always have problems with registration, finish quality and repeatable tool changes. I know there are some China QCTP that do a passable job, but for the most part they don’t. Least ways the the 4 I have in the junk pile don’t, by buying top quality I only cry once.
Good luck
CH


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## mikey (Feb 7, 2019)

I only have Aloris and Dorian tool posts and have used them extensively and find no major issues with them. They are expensive but they require no mods or cleaning or anything to make them work as they should. My Aloris is a current model but the Dorian is an older one, made in the day when Dorian cared about quality control. @ddickey can tell you a different story, though. Seems like Dorian is letting things slide recently.

I only jumped in here to express the opinion that tool posts are like milling vices. Both are foundational tools that make a difference in how the machine performs. Hobby guys like cheap and given how much machine tools cost, I can't fault anyone for that. However, some tools need to perform well and typically the cheap versions do not do that as well as we would like. On a lathe, I think your lathe chucks, drill chuck and tool post should be the best quality you can find. On the mill, you need a good milling vise, drill chuck and collet tool holder. These are foundational tools that impact on all the work these machines do. 

Going cheap seems to be the norm in the hobby machining world but for some tools, maybe not the best idea.


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## Dan_S (Feb 7, 2019)

The import AXA QCTP i purchased from Lathemaster (no longer in business) has always worked really well. 

Imo, the only thing on a qctp that really maters is the dimensioning, surface finish, and hardness of the dovetails.


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## DAT510 (Feb 7, 2019)

For what it's worth, there was a recent post on H-M of a member disassembling their new QCTP and cleaning it thoroughly, with very positive results after.


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## Dan_S (Feb 7, 2019)

What exactly is the problem with the holder?



ezduzit said:


> Very disappointed in the Phase II holder I bought.


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## ezduzit (Feb 7, 2019)

Dan_S said:


> What exactly is the problem with the holder?



Sorry for the poor photo. Look at how cockeyed the machined tool slot is.


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## COMachinist (Feb 7, 2019)

Well, I can’t tell if it is the photo or if the holder is actually that far out. You should check it with a 1/2 hss blank? That would give a reference to judge by.  I saw a  er collet nut photo here, and it looked like the nut was bored way off center when actually is was just the angle of the photo. You can fix thatwitha carbide end mill chucked in the lathe then mount the tool holder on the QCTP and mill it square, by raising and lowering the holder. If you have a mill then you can mill it out square. The tool holders can go out to 5/8 without compromising the holder
CH


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## ezduzit (Feb 7, 2019)

COMachinist said:


> ...You can fix that...



Sure, I can fix crappy products.


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## COMachinist (Feb 7, 2019)

ezduzit said:


> Sure, I can fix crappy products.


LOL if you use chinese tools and equipment you better get used to it.
CH


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## Larry42 (Feb 7, 2019)

ezduzit said:


> Sorry for the poor photo. Look at how cockeyed the machined tool slot is.



The only part of the tool slot that matters is the bottom & maybe to a lesser extent the back. The top of the slot has no function in positioning the tool. I don't buy tools for their "beauty." Though a well made tool does have a definite aesthetic.


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## Dabbler (Feb 7, 2019)

I have a  bunch of AXA and several BXA toolholders, all from China.  They are all of 'adequate' quality, more than sufficient for hobby use.  I figure at the price, that I'll have 1 or 2 in 10 be defective, the 8 are about the price of a new Aloris, so I'm happy.

I'm going to buy some more BXA tool holders this week, 5 or 6, and expect to change the hold down set screws right away for European made metric cap screws (partly to make everything on my lathe 6mm allen head), and  check for fit.  So far everything I have  fits very well.  The tool holder could be made of anything with iron in it and will hold well for the depth of cut I typically use.


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## 7milesup (Feb 7, 2019)

Thank you for the replies guys.   I purchased the Phase II because of my experience on my brothers Jet lathe.  I just felt that his was pretty decent, so for the money I was expecting better.
The one I got just has a lot of slop on the top where the handle attaches to it.  I did take the jaws out to see if there were any adjustments that I was missing.  All of the pieces that I got in this set were covered in a what appears to be a light weight machine oil.  A LOT of it.  The threaded piece that moves the wedges up and down had some light rusting on it despite the copious amount of oil.  The rust was just surface rust but it was one of those "hmmm" moments. 

 It is not so much that the QCTP that came on the lathe or the Phase II won't do their job, but apparently I am picky and the slop in the QCTP is more of a irritant than a performance issue.   I had the thought run through my mind "I wonder if anyone has built one of these in their shop". 

Mikey... I certainly understand the value of quality tools.  I have numerous Albrecht chucks and they are a joy to work with, and look at for that matter.  I don't plan on keeping this lathe forever and that is why I chose a product underneath an Aloris for example.  I hope to get a bigger lathe down the road, maybe a 1340 GT or an older American one if I could find a good one.  Still trying to figure out why there is $4000 difference between the 1340GT and the 1440GT...

I will probably end up sending this Phase II back and just save my money.  I am going to re-do the mounting system of the stock QCTP though in order to get more rigidity out of it.  I have seen in flex under certain conditions.


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## Dabbler (Feb 7, 2019)

7miles, there are vendors of offshore stuff that try to keep their names as a good supplier intact.  Grizzly and Sars seem to offer 'better quality' offshore stuff, or at least make an effort to replace/fix what isn't right... (so far in my experience)


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## MarkM (Feb 8, 2019)

I never understood the purchase of an import qctp. with the uncertainty of the quality and just how important it is.  Rigidity, Rigidity, Rigidity, Isn t machining supposed to be precise? Why add in a factor of possible error.  To me it s like putting a cheap set of tires on a nice car.  I ll use my four post with shims until I Can afford quality that enables me to use the lathe to its potentioal that will be with the lathe to the end.  It isn t just the quality but take a look at some of the options available from Dorian or Aloris for toolholding and such.  Buying things online with no way to check the product is no good for me with the imports. It s a compromise.  Why purchase something that won t enable the machine to work to it s full potential.   How long did it take for you to decide what lathe to buy?  and your going to put an inferior toolpost on that decision you made.  It s a hard battle financially for quality.  It s long term so do it right.  Just my opinion and we have all our own reasons why.  I want to purchase things once.  I ll suffer until I can afford it!
Hey Bob,  my Glacern Vise is from Taiwan and ground in the states.  High quality for sure!


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## ddickey (Feb 8, 2019)

7milesup said:


> I hope to get a bigger lathe down the road, maybe a 1340 GT or an older American one if I could find a good one.  Still trying to figure out why there is $4000 difference between the 1340GT and the 1440GT...


I had that same question some time ago.








						1340GT & 1440GT
					

What justifies a $3000 higher price for the 1440?




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Tozguy (Feb 8, 2019)

7milesup said:


> I have a PM1022 lathe with the "standard" chinese QCTP. I felt it had a lot of slop in the mechanism, including the round part that the handle attaches to


My piston BXA Phase II was purchased to replace a 4 way OEM tool post and I am very happy with it. It is just as rigid as the 4 way.
However I would not expect a Phase II of comparable size to be much better 'quality' than an OEM QCTP on a hobby lathe.
From what I gather 7miles, your Phase II is a wedge style AXA QCTP so maybe that makes a difference when comparing to piston style BXA.


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## chips&more (Feb 8, 2019)

mikey said:


> I only have Aloris and Dorian tool posts and have used them extensively and find no major issues with them. They are expensive but they require no mods or cleaning or anything to make them work as they should. My Aloris is a current model but the Dorian is an older one, made in the day when Dorian cared about quality control. @ddickey can tell you a different story, though. Seems like Dorian is letting things slide recently.
> 
> I only jumped in here to express the opinion that tool posts are like milling vices. Both are foundational tools that make a difference in how the machine performs. Hobby guys like cheap and given how much machine tools cost, I can't fault anyone for that. However, some tools need to perform well and typically the cheap versions do not do that as well as we would like. On a lathe, I think your lathe chucks, drill chuck and tool post should be the best quality you can find. On the mill, you need a good milling vise, drill chuck and collet tool holder. These are foundational tools that impact on all the work these machines do.
> 
> Going cheap seems to be the norm in the hobby machining world but for some tools, maybe not the best idea.


Mickey, you are right on! Junk is junk and will probably always be junk! The finesse of the operator is very important for quality workmanship. But the tools that person uses is also important for quality workmanship…Dave


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## 7milesup (Feb 8, 2019)

ddickey said:


> I had that same question some time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey!  Thanks for that.   Glad to see Matt come on here and answer your (and mine) question.


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## 7milesup (Feb 8, 2019)

MarkM said:


> I never understood the purchase of an import qctp. with the uncertainty of the quality and just how important it is.  Rigidity, Rigidity, Rigidity, Isn t machining supposed to be precise? Why add in a factor of possible error.  To me it s like putting a cheap set of tires on a nice car.  I ll use my four post with shims until I Can afford quality that enables me to use the lathe to its potentioal that will be with the lathe to the end.  It isn t just the quality but take a look at some of the options available from Dorian or Aloris for toolholding and such.  Buying things online with no way to check the product is no good for me with the imports. It s a compromise.  Why purchase something that won t enable the machine to work to it s full potential.   How long did it take for you to decide what lathe to buy?  and your going to put an inferior toolpost on that decision you made.  It s a hard battle financially for quality.  It s long term so do it right.  Just my opinion and we have all our own reasons why.  I want to purchase things once.  I ll suffer until I can afford it!
> Hey Bob,  my Glacern Vise is from Taiwan and ground in the states.  High quality for sure!



I understand you get what you pay for.  As I mentioned in one of my first posts I purchased the Phase II because of my experience on a larger lathe.  As mentioned by Tozguy though, I might be comparing apples to oranges because of the BXA vs AXA wedge toolposts.  Mos of us hobbyist are trying to find a balance between cost, quality and keeping the other half happy.   I certainly enjoy my PM833T mill, which wasn't cheap.  

This hobby, which a am just getting into really, also shares shop space with my extensive woodworking hobby and radio control aircraft and helicopters.  My radio control system for my RC stuff is Jeti, which is probably the most expensive system you can buy.  My routers for woodworking (I think I have 4 or 5 of them) are all Bosch.  No Black and Decker, Craptsman, Ryobi or other junk in my shop.


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## Janderso (Feb 8, 2019)

My South Bend 13 had a Phase II BXA. The first thing I did was to break it down, clean and oil. I also changed the screws out. I thought it was decent.
Recently I purchased a newer Clausing Colchester 15. I bought the 7 piece Aloris CXA kit.
Wow, what a beautiful combination.
I used the parting tool yesterday. I didn't know parting could be so simple, quiet, clean!!
Quality is everything but you have to justify the expense for what you are going to use it for.
For me, I just like owning the best. I deserve it. IMHO anyway


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## 7milesup (Feb 8, 2019)

"For me, I just like owning the best. I deserve it. IMHO anyway "

Oh I agree with you there!!!
One day the wife said "what don't we budget 10% of respective incomes for discretionary spending on ourselves".  I immediately jumped on that because I knew that she hadn't thought about it before she said it.   At that time I made about 10 times what she did.  LOL.


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## Dabbler (Feb 8, 2019)

MarkM said:


> I never understood the purchase of an import qctp. with the uncertainty of the quality and just how important it is. Rigidity, Rigidity, Rigidity, Isn t machining supposed to be precise?



MarkM, I agree in principle with your statements. I do strive for the best I can afford in all my machines,  

--Most guys assume you use shims with a 4 way tool post. It is simply not a very rigid way to hold your tool at the right height.  Most of my carbide tooling for my 4 way was milled and ground to be 5 tenths below the centre line of the lathe.  All of the tool is in contact with the toolpost, etc.  My very good friend has been using a 4 way exclusively for 40+ years this way,

So I get your comments on this.  I am negotiating an upgrade to an Aloris BXA right now to replace my offshore BXA.  That being said, with the depth of cuts I take, on the jobs I do, the offshore one has performed well.  My tool holders are always offshore, because theyu work as well as Aloris ones - at least one ones I have, and I've compared them only to an Aloris AXA.  I may soon get to compare a real Aloris BXA toolpost and holder to my offshore one.


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## jbolt (Feb 8, 2019)

Back when I did the BXA tool holder testing I also compared a BXA Aloris to a Bostar and a no-name import (all three wedge types) and found the performance aspect to be negligible. Fit and finish wise the Aloris was far superior with much tighter manufacturing tolerances.  My current QCTP on my PM-1440GT lathe is a Bostar CXA. I did however make a new center T-nut to remove some of the slop I felt was too excessive. I have considered upgrading but when I am able to remove and reset a tool within a few tenths it doesn't make sense for me to spend the money. It is my opinion, based on extensive testing, that most issues with repeatability and rigidity come from the compound rest on the hobby import lathes or not keeping the surfaces between the tool holder and the tool post clean.


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## projectnut (Feb 9, 2019)

Maybe the quality of Phase II products has slipped over the years, or maybe the tool post you got was defective.  In either case I would contact the retailer and ask to return it.  You can ask for a replacement or a refund. 

 I have 2 Phase II tool posts, an AXA for my 10" lathe and a BXA for my 13" lathe.  I've had both of quite a number of years, and they are of acceptable quality.  At work we used Aloris toll posts and holders exclusively .  They were both sturdy and accurate, but they were extremely expensive.  For the work I do my Phase II are just as sturdy and just as accurate, but cost about 25% of the Aloris products.

An Aloris "kit" which includes a BXA tool post and 4 tool holders costs between $925.00 and $1,200.00 depending on where you buy them.  A Phase II BXA  "kit" with a tool post and 5 tool holders costs about $300.00.  Although I like the Aloris brand I can't see spending three to four times the money for negligible differences in performance.

As an FYI I do have several Aloris tool holders.  They were purchased new from a company that specializes in buying out surplus equipment and shops either upgrading or going out of business.  The tool holders fit my Phase II posts perfectly and perform well.  I particularly like threading tool:






						Threading Holder AXA-8
					






					shop.aloris.com
				




But at $130.00 per copy my Shars tool holders at $15.00 per copy work just fine.


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## 7milesup (Feb 9, 2019)

I do plan on sending it back.  No sense in paying for something that has no improvement over what I have.

Interesting threading holder.  I have never seen one like that.


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## Splat (Feb 9, 2019)

I picked up Phase ii+ wedge type qctp about 4 or 5 years ago. I actually drove up to their offices and met everyone. The lady owner was very nice. I met the guy who oversees QC. He said he goes to China very often to ensure standards are being held. I am very happy with my qctp, vise, and couple of other things I bought that day from them. Even got a nice discount. I did open and clean everything I bought but since that I've had zero issues. I hope their QC isn't going the way of many other companies these days. 7milesup, you gonna return yours or just bite the bullet?


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## 7milesup (Feb 10, 2019)

Thank you for the info Splat.   I am going to be sending mine back.


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## wrmiller (Feb 10, 2019)

When I bought my 1340GT I already had monies set aside for a Dorian BXA, a few Aloris holders, and a PBA 8" setrite chuck. I didn't want to put lower quality stuff on a nice Taiwan lathe as that kinda defeats the purpose of buying this lathe. I also knew that I'd better spend the money now because later I wouldn't have it.

And it's later now.


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## 7milesup (Feb 10, 2019)

I hear ya Bill.   Until I get a better lathe I can't justify top end for this PM1022.   Would like to upgrade to a 1236 or 1440 but I just got an 833T a while ago and upgrading my lathe now would not pass the finance department approval.


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## Splat (Feb 11, 2019)

Or you could consider a 40-position Multifix-type of tool post system, like from *Create Tool* in China. Their prices and shipping are very reasonable. I love mine and wouldn't want to go back to a "regular" qctp.


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## 7milesup (Feb 11, 2019)

Splat said:


> Or you could consider a 40-position Multifix-type of tool post system, like from *Create Tool* in China. Their prices and shipping are very reasonable. I love mine and wouldn't want to go back to a "regular" qctp.



I have seriously thought about that Splat.  The only drawback I can see is lack of "quick" availability on the tool holders, although that probably would not be an issue.  I am watching a couple videos on it right now ...


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## MarkM (Apr 25, 2019)

Good day all!  Thought I d come back here to get flamed!!! I just bought a Bostar Bxa 5 pc Wedge set.   
For 139$ on sale( til the the 30th at CDCO) thought is was a deal.  
I use alot of Hss and every tool has a custom block and then I may add some rake and I make enough stuff to make stuff and shim blocks I could do not having to make.  
Having the thread adjustment just makes sense for 139$ wether it repeats or not.  Don t really feel I ll gain anything as far as rigidity goes and still would like a Dorian one day but for 1200-1500$ in Canuck money is way out of reach for now.  I ll post up unpacking and general review.  Have an idea what I m getting .  It s progress!
Let the flaming begin!


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## 7milesup (Apr 25, 2019)

No flame from me that is for sure.  Like to hear what you think of it.  I will say after cleaning my AXA holder up that came with the lathe,  PM's is just as good as the Phase II.  
I will say that Travers Tool took it back with no complaints so their CS was very good.


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## mikey (Apr 25, 2019)

Don't see how anyone could justify flaming you for this, Mark. I don't know this for sure but I would guess Chinese tool posts outnumber Aloris and Dorian tool posts on the typical hobby lathe by a pretty wide margin. 

And just to be clear, repeatability on an Aloris or Dorian tool post (I own both) is mostly a myth. Every single time you put the tool holder on the post the tool height can be slightly off. I am sure of this because I check tool height each and every time. It is close enough to use but it won't be dead on center without messing with it a bit. So use your post and enjoy the convenience.


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## Larry42 (Apr 25, 2019)

For my business I always bought high quality tools. They paid for themselves in reliable performance. For my hobby now that I'm retired I've bought used and Chinese. Even at their low prices they will never pay for themselves! I totally agree with Bob Korves in his assessment of Chinese tools. In order for me to have the equipment and tooling to do the things a hobby guy would like to it takes a lot of "stuff." I'm not a tool snob and an Aloris QCTP & holders won't make me a better machinist. It would be nice to have but right now I'd like to get an 8" rotary table with all the goodies. The Taiwan/Chinese set will cost less than an Aloris QCTP set. The QCTP that came on my PM1440HD plus the Shars holders I've added are better than my machining skills. So which would you choose? An acceptable 8" HV rotary table, dividing plates, nice tailstock, 7.6" decent 3 jaw or replacing my QCTP with an Aloris??? I realize my choice is putting me in a lower standing than some on this forum. That's OK, you can delete my comments.


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## bfd (Apr 25, 2019)

I am happy with my Chinese tools why you ask? because I treat all Chinese tools as kits that need to be tuned to work correctly. my lathe from enco needed to be completely rewired and has worked perfectly since. I can afford these kits or go without. for me that's an easy choice bill


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## mikey (Apr 25, 2019)

Larry42 said:


> ... I realize my choice is putting me in a lower standing than some on this forum. That's OK, you can delete my comments.



The tools you choose should in no way reflect on you or your standing on this forum. That is partly why HM got it's start. You do not need to defend your choices ever, Larry. Or Mark, for that matter. We all have our own philosophy regarding the tooling we choose, and we definitely have our own budgets. 

For my part, I respect you for who you are, not what you own.


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## darkzero (Apr 25, 2019)

Splat said:


> Or you could consider a 40-position Multifix-type of tool post system, like from *Create Tool* in China. Their prices and shipping are very reasonable. I love mine and wouldn't want to go back to a "regular" qctp.



When I was shopping for a tool post I really wanted a Multi-Fix but I couldn't find an original since they were no longer made and at the time I couldn't find any reviews on the import clones on how good they were. They were also still pretty expensive & more importantly the tool holders were pretty expensive for the clones, not a lot of vendors carried them, & there weren't as many holder styles available like for the Aloris style QCTP.

The lathe I originally ordered was going to include a Multi-Fix clone but I changed my mind & purchased a bigger lathe. I searched for a DTM QCTP, I had one on my mini-lathe & it was very nice. Couldn't find a DTM in the size I needed so I went with the Dorian SQCTP, couldn't be happier but sometimes I do still wish I would have found a Multi-Fix or DTM.


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## darkzero (Apr 25, 2019)

Larry42 said:


> I realize my choice is putting me in a lower standing than some on this forum.



Nope, not at all, everything is welcome here. Sure there may be individuals who look down on China tooling & small hobby machines but so be it. If anyone does scruitinize you for buying inexpensive tooling, ignore them, those types of comments are not welcome here anyway.

I don't mind China tooling & machines. Sure some of it can be poor quality and/or need work to be useable but I look at it this way. If it weren't for the inexpensive/affordable stuff coming out of China, many people would not be able to have machining equipment in their home garages. Having small hobby machines & inexpensive tooling is better than having none at all.

I sure wouldn't have been able to get into this hobby if it weren't for China stuff. Sure I have splurged & bought quality stuff over the years but I do own a fair share of cheap stuff also & I'm fine with that, I don't care what anyone thinks or says about what I have. If I'm happy that's all that matters.


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## mikey (Apr 25, 2019)

darkzero said:


> If it weren't for the inexpensive/affordable stuff coming out of China, many people would not be able to have machining equipment in their home garages. Having small hobby machines & inexpensive tooling is better than having none at all.



'Dis is true! Affordable machines and tooling makes it possible to engage in this hobby for many of us. It still ain't cheap but its doable and that's what counts.


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## wrmiller (Apr 25, 2019)

mikey said:


> Don't see how anyone could justify flaming you for this, Mark. I don't know this for sure but I would guess Chinese tool posts outnumber Aloris and Dorian tool posts on the typical hobby lathe by a pretty wide margin.
> 
> And just to be clear, repeatability on an Aloris or Dorian tool post (I own both) is mostly a myth. Every single time you put the tool holder on the post the tool height can be slightly off. I am sure of this because I check tool height each and every time. It is close enough to use but it won't be dead on center without messing with it a bit. So use your post and enjoy the convenience.



The flip side of that is my parting tool that I cannot remember the last time I adjusted it. After parting off something I even check it by running it all the way in to see if it leaves a nub and needs adjusting. It hasn't (needed adjusting) yet. Maybe some tool holders just register better than others? I'm using one of my PM holders for that cutoff tool. I own a few Aloris holders, but they don't really seem to do any better job of holding cutters than the imports I have do.


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## mikey (Apr 25, 2019)

wrmiller said:


> The flip side of that is my parting tool that I cannot remember the last time I adjusted it. After parting off something I even check it by running it all the way in to see if it leaves a nub and needs adjusting. It hasn't (needed adjusting) yet. Maybe some tool holders just register better than others? I'm using one of my PM holders for that cutoff tool. I own a few Aloris holders, but they don't really seem to do any better job of holding cutters than the imports I have do.



Aahh, but you have the magic PM holder, Bill, and that makes a difference.

Half my tool holders are Aloris, the other half are Phase II. All of them can sometimes register fine, sometimes not fine. I check center height every single time with a center height gauge made to fit my specific lathe and I am convinced that Aloris and Dorian tool posts and tool holders of any kind do not always seat at their preset height. They fit good enough to work; just not good enough for me so I have to fuss with it until it is.


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## ezduzit (Apr 26, 2019)

mikey said:


> ...They fit good enough to work; just not good enough for me so I have to fuss with it until it is.



Then you should find out why and correct the deficiency. Mine seat the same every time. But they are Aloris and Dorian.


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## mikey (Apr 26, 2019)

What would you suggest? Everything is clean, everything deburred so it isn't like I haven't looked. My posts are Aloris and Dorian, too.


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## ezduzit (Apr 26, 2019)

If you are determined you will find and correct the fault.


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## MarkM (Apr 26, 2019)

Sometimes on the forum I forget and type as I am talking to a buddy.  I am not a tool snob and my statement much earlier regarding why put an import qctp was a bit blunt shall I say.  Re read and thought what a d---!
We all know just how expensive machining can be to get setup.  It never ends.  
I thought I would just suffer with the four way t. Post until funds allow but like stated I d rather have other stuff for the shop but man I used to work with a Dorian and not just the post but the holders changed the machine it went on.  Really made a differece I thought and feel it s worth it.  
Another thing is I think Import stuff can b quite good.  I would just like to see it and ordering online turns me off the imports.
The Bostar had decent reviews and if it needs a tuneup it will still be progress for me.
After making another five boring bars all different sizes the light went off and thought why make all these blocks when one day I won t be using them and it can be a bit frustrating with hss as most my tools end up with rake and centre height changes with parallel holders. 
I thought I deserved a bit of a hard time !


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## RJSakowski (Apr 26, 2019)

I can appreciate that someone using their tools and equipment for their livelihood would want to have high end products. but for my situation, it doesn't fly.

When I bought my Grizzly 602, I also bought one of their QCTP.  It is coming on five years now, and I have no complaints concerning its performance.  The only problem that I have had with it has been the plastic knob on the locking lever and I replaced that with a bronze knob.  Doing it over, I would probably opt for the wedge type rather than the piston but in truth, for most work, alignment is repeatable.  I usually re-orient the tool post to optimize cutting geometry which requires re-referencing the tool and vertical alignment is usually good to a thousandth or two.

My total investment with eight extra tool holders is lwess than $300.  If I had bought the Aloris or Dorian tool post with the additional tool holders, they would have exceeded the cost of the lathe.  As a hobbyist, I try to get the most value out of my tooling budget which in my book means acquiring tools and equipment which enable me to do the kind of work that I want to.  Spending an extra $1,000 on a tool post means that something else doesn't get purchased.


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## Larry42 (Apr 26, 2019)

I have spent hours looking @ 8" rotary tables and their accessories, reading reviews, adding up the costs of the complete set + Frt. I have more faith in Taiwanese tools than those from China. Somehow I expect the Chinese tools to have greater variability even within brands. Looking closely at the photos I can see that many of the brands are the same product, or is it that they just use whatever photo happens to be handy? 
It's not like I'm nearly destitute but rather what you might call kind-a-cheap. Every time I start a new project it seems there is something else I "need." 
I've decided to bite the bullet and buy a Taiwanese set. I'll have no way of knowing if it is significantly better than the cheapest of the imports or not. I'm rationalizing it as "insurance." And since I've never used one I won't even be able to tell how good or bad it is, sort of.. I'll know if it is frustrating though. Much of what I do is mostly to prove to myself that I can.


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## Yucholian (Apr 28, 2019)

See how I addressed the slop


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## Dabbler (Apr 28, 2019)

Nice work!


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## Larry42 (Apr 28, 2019)

I watched the video, BUT I don't seem to understand why the "slop" that he measured would matter. Seems like what matters is the movement of the tool holder when the wedges are tightened. My lathe/tool post is Chinese. I wiped the wedges & tool holder sort of clean. Mounted my dial indicator to a mag base mounted on the cross slide. Tightened the holder lever and measured the change. That would be the relationship of the tool to the cross slide, .0003". I repeated the process several times getting very nearly the same answer every time.
Then I tried loosening the tool post, pivoting and returning, tightening. I got about .0003 in the opposite direction. I attribute that to the fact that the "TEE" head of the post that goes into the cross slide is quite a bit thinner than the slot. Probably one of those universal fit things. I could make a new Tee bolt if that .0003" got to bothering me, BUT since it doesn't hardly vary from one tightening to another....
I've not had any problems with chatter or a nub when parting off or facing why worry about .0003" and just compensate for it if you can/need to.


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## Dabbler (Apr 28, 2019)

The physics of a toolpost in vibration are very complex, perhaps too complex to model.  By removing much of the vertical play in the tightening screw, it is helping to remove sources of freedom of movement.  It isn't clear that doing so will change anything, but I applaud him for finding it and fixing it.


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## Dan Coleman (Apr 28, 2019)

I have BXA and CXA from the guy in Illinois.  You might need to clean and lube.
Dan Coleman


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## Larry42 (Apr 28, 2019)

Once a thread is tightened there is no "freedom" of movement! Chatter has to do with flex more than anything. Perhaps you could get some flex by great changes in the stress on the threads causing them to stretch within their elastic limits. Another source could be that the male & female pitches are slightly different so that only a few threads are being stressed in tightening. That would put those threads into a state similar to a spring. It would require a fairly sloppy fit or a shallow range of engagement. 
I suspect that the majority of problems with chatter is long tool stick-out or cutting edges that are too rounded for the depth of cut. Another source, the compound being extended too much for the forces being applied. 
Like you said, lots of potential causes, maybe several interacting.


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## jbolt (Apr 28, 2019)

Larry42 said:


> I watched the video, BUT I don't seem to understand why the "slop" that he measured would matter.


As far as functionality goes it does not. Nothing wrong with improving the fit but you will always need some play to prevent binding of the worm. 

The import manufacturers use much looser tolerances to ensure the parts fit together but not necessarily fit well. 

Where I have found the most of the excessive play with import tool posts is the fit of the gib to the gib slot, fit of the gib teeth to the worm, the fit of the worm bolt to the worm and the fit of the center bot to the worm bolt. The later two can be improved upon but not the first two.


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## Yucholian (Apr 28, 2019)

Thanks for watching the video.  The original complaint was regarding the play of the mechanism, specifically the round part.   That is the same play I had.  Hope this helps.



Larry42 said:


> I watched the video, BUT I don't seem to understand why the "slop" that he measured would matter. Seems like what matters is the movement of the tool holder when the wedges are tightened. My lathe/tool post is Chinese. I wiped the wedges & tool holder sort of clean. Mounted my dial indicator to a mag base mounted on the cross slide. Tightened the holder lever and measured the change. That would be the relationship of the tool to the cross slide, .0003". I repeated the process several times getting very nearly the same answer every time.
> Then I tried loosening the tool post, pivoting and returning, tightening. I got about .0003 in the opposite direction. I attribute that to the fact that the "TEE" head of the post that goes into the cross slide is quite a bit thinner than the slot. Probably one of those universal fit things. I could make a new Tee bolt if that .0003" got to bothering me, BUT since it doesn't hardly vary from one tightening to another....
> I've not had any problems with chatter or a nub when parting off or facing why worry about .0003" and just compensate for it if you can/need to.


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## Dan Coleman (Apr 30, 2019)

If you disasemble your QC to lube, remember all of the parts are "timed" to go back correctly.  You may need to install the "scroll? a few times to get it correct.
Just saying.
Dan Coleman


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## petertha (Apr 30, 2019)

That was very revealing to see the innards of the tool post, thanks for posting. I have an older (offshore) piston style purchased long time ago before I knew there was a difference or advantage to wedge. Its remarkably consistent which maybe suggests I got lucky & build quality trumps style. Its the usual crap shoot. Anyways good job on figuring it out. Unrelated but I liked your spindle replacement vid too btw. Keep up the good work!


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## Yucholian (May 1, 2019)

Thanks for your kind words.



petertha said:


> That was very revealing to see the innards of the tool post, thanks for posting. I have an older (offshore) piston style purchased long time ago before I knew there was a difference or advantage to wedge. Its remarkably consistent which maybe suggests I got lucky & build quality trumps style. Its the usual crap shoot. Anyways good job on figuring it out. Unrelated but I liked your spindle replacement vid too btw. Keep up the good work!


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## bakrch (May 15, 2019)

It is all about what you are used to I suppose.  Our manual shop has CXA all the way up to EA in Aloris, Dorian and DTM, so that is what I was used to when I got my PM1236. If this wasn't the case I would probably have no desire to change anything.

The QCTP that came with it is surprisingly repeatable minus the bit of slop that was addressed in the video on the last page.  I just have a need to have higher quality stuff I suppose. Call me a princess, but I will gladly pay $450 or so to get a quality BXA at some point.


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