# Stuck Lathe Chuck



## vocatexas (Apr 28, 2019)

A few months ago I bought a large Lodge and Shipley lathe (36x72 inch). I'm in the process of finishing my shop, and when it's done I intend to disassemble this machine and go through it. It was built in 1917 and has sat unused most of it's life and, while it seems to be in over-all decent condition, most moving parts were stuck. In preparation of restoring it I've got everything movable now with the exception of the cross-slide. Out of curiosity today I decided to try to loosen the chuck. It appears to screw onto the spindle but I can't budge it; not even with a long bar chucked up. I'm almost certain this machine has babbitt bearings so I'm a bit hesitant to use heat, but I'm not sure how else I'm going to get it loose. By the way, it's a 24 1/2 inch 4 jaw. The machine isn't currently powered.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 29, 2019)

Don't use heat on the spindle.  Use cold on the spindle.  Use a light amount of heat on the chuck. For cold, use dry ice in the spindle.  A friend did that recently on his lathe of similar size and vintage for the same problem.  No luck until he used both the heat and cold.


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## vocatexas (Apr 29, 2019)

Bob, thanks for the reply. No, I would not directly heat the spindle, I would heat the chuck to expand it. I was just worried about transferring the heat from the chuck to the spindle, thence to the bearings. I hadn't thought about dry ice on the spindle. It's not available in my area, but I know a friend of mine uses it in his winery from time to time. I'll have to find out where he gets it. 

Thanks!


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## Bob Korves (Apr 29, 2019)

Whatever you do, do not use back gears to hold the spindle still.  It is quite likely you will break teeth off if you do that.


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## markba633csi (Apr 29, 2019)

Soak it for at least a week with penetrating solvent before you try to remove it


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## brino (Apr 29, 2019)

A search here for "stuck chuck" will find dozens of hits. Some of them have some very useful and creative advice.

My favorites:
-lots of penetrating oil applied over a period of weeks
-a good safe way to lock the spindle; like a split wedge bar that locks inside the spindle from the out-board end
-a hex bar tightened in the chuck, with a socket and air ratchet on the hex bar to loosen (a thousand little blows vs. a few big ones)

also be sure to have some protection for the ways so that wrenches, bars and the chuck itself don't ding it up.

Wow a 24 inch chuck! 
hopefully you have a safe way to lift it too.

-brino


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## benmychree (Apr 29, 2019)

In my shop I had a 30" swing American lathe with geared head; to remove the 30" chuck, I would put it in the lowest speed in reverse, and put a 4X4 between the bed way and one of the chuck jaws and engage the clutch and bump it until the chuck started to unscrew.
When I worked at Kaiser Steel, we had a 36" Nebel lathe that I had to remove the 4 jaw chuck and put on a faceplate with chuck jaws to work on a larger part, and tried the 4X4 method, and made a bunch of kindling; finally I had to insert a 4" square boring bar diagonally through to chuck jaws and downward between the ways and bump the direct connected (no clutch) motor (30HP) multiple times to break it loose.


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## vocatexas (Apr 29, 2019)

I had read that using back gears was a bad idea, but thanks for mentioning it. Someone else might read this and not know that. I've been soaking almost every moving part on this machine with Liquid Wrench for about a month. I should buy stock in Liquid Wrench. I've used nearly two cases of it so far. It's done a great job on most parts, but not the chuck or cross-slide. I tried putting a wooden wedge between the bull gear and drive gear and used a pry bar to pull on the chuck. I found out how toothpicks are made...The bull gear is around 24 inches in diameter.


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## benmychree (Apr 29, 2019)

I have a 9" Monarch lathe about the same vintage as your lathe that had a broken tooth on the cone pulley back gear, I figure that it was broken by using a wrench on a chuck jaw and hammering on it; I repaired it by turning the teeth off the gear and turning it undersize and making a new gear to press over the remains of the old gear and pinning it on like a keyway.  My go to method of removing chucks is to put the lathe on back gear with the belt on the largest step on the cone pulley and pulling the belt down on the backside with of course a wood block under the chuck jaw.  For my gear head Regal, I put it in the lowest gear speed and use the wood block under the chuck jaw and bump the motor; I have made a quantity of kindling over the years, but never broke anything.   I think that rust does not much get into threads on a spindle, but it is the constant hammering of (especially) interrupted cuts that gets chucks on so tight.  I would not worry about babbit bearings on that lathe, likely they are bronze; I have only ever seen one lathe where the bearings were babbited, it was a Leblond from about the WW-1 era, and they were poured in the rough casting, not in shells.


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## jcp (Apr 29, 2019)

John......The shop I worked in had an American 30" with a 10.5" hollow spindle, double chuck oil field lathe. 10' bed I think. We needed to remove the bed side chuck to fish out a chip in the labyrinth spindle seal that was pumping out oil almost as fast as we poured it in. We tried several methods to no avail. Chuck is still on there. That was about 25 years ago. Shop is still using the lathe.


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## benmychree (Apr 29, 2019)

My American was an old timer, I think made in 1919, and was a sturdy and accurate lathe, it cut perfectly straight in chucking work and ran smoothly and quietly.  An old friend bought it back east in the mid 1950s from a dealer who had 24 of them all alike and nearly that many 36" swing; this was when the railroads were dropping steam for diesel, it must have been form the shop of a major locomotive manufacturer.
Interestingly, the chuck was held on by a coarse acme thread.  The lathe is still in use at my shop, which I sold when I retired.


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## vocatexas (Apr 29, 2019)

I was looking at it again this afternoon. I'm not sure if this is a good idea, so give me your opinions. The bull gear is about 24 inches across and the teeth are massive. I measured 5/16 at the tip and 5/8 at the root. I'm wondering if putting a piece of flat bar that fits the gap between the teeth snugly and bottoming it out on the headstock housing, which is over 1 inch thick cast iron, would hurt anything? Like I said, right now I don't have power for it, I'm trying to loosen it up with hand tools.

Apparently it's been stuck on there a long time. There's evidence on the backside of the chuck that somebody tried to 'convince' it with a hammer at one time. I don't see any damage, but you can see the marks they left.


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## benmychree (Apr 29, 2019)

Hammering is how teeth get broken; wait for power up, and bump power repeatedly, not all power until something breaks.


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## benmychree (Apr 29, 2019)

As a last resort, the chuck can be removed from the backplate, then the backplate made into chips, then a new one made after the spindle threads are cleaned up.


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## john.k (Apr 30, 2019)

If the gears are massive,then using a reverse force on the drive is likely safe.I have used a large shifter 36" on one of the chuck jaws to move threaded chucks.,but lacking a big shifter,a piece of 4x1/2" flat across the face of the chuck should be ok.....Dry ice in the spindle bore,and heat the backplate,if there is one,or the chuck around the outer edge with the strongest oxy flame you have.......no use fiddling with a small torch,as heat will equalize,and what you want is to expand the rim before the rest of the metal expands.Then give it your best shot.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 30, 2019)

This discussion makes me really appreciate my 13" lathe with a D1-4 spindle.  Never an issue with chucks after refitting them properly to the spindle nose taper, and the chucks are not too heavy to carry (so far.)


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## markba633csi (Apr 30, 2019)

Really prehistoric to make a lathe that big with a threaded spindle, but there you go
I like the split wedge in the spindle bore idea, even if it slips as you whack on the chuck no harm is done


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## vocatexas (May 1, 2019)

I guess I'll put this on the back burner until the shop is finished (hopefully about 2 months) and I can power it. Then I'll try a combination of all the suggestions. I'll have to find a source for dry ice. It's not available around here. 

The chuck is apparently bolted to some sort of back plate, but the only  fasteners visible are four bolt heads in the front of the chuck. There isn't enough clearance around them to put a socket on them. I'm not really sure how it all goes together. I can look behind the chuck and see a couple of threads on the spindle, so I'm sure it screws on. I'd post pics but I've never figured out how on this site. Can't seem to find instructions anywhere. I quit using Photobucket when they started wanting to charge for links.

Thanks for the help fellas. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm seriously thinking about videoing the restoration. There are tons of videos for Southbends, Monarchs, and other more popular lathes, but very little on L&S to be found anywhere.


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## kvt (May 1, 2019)

A thin walled socket for the removal of the bolts for the chuck,  Removal of the chuck from the back plate will allow you to better heat the back plate.  With the Chuck in place you ware wasting your heat on the chuck and not getting enough to the back plate where it will do the most good.

Also look on here for home made penetrating fluid,   There are several and some often work better than the commercial stuff at times.   
wish you luck But keep putting penetrating fluid on things.


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## MontanaLon (May 1, 2019)

Thin walled socket is the way to go. You can make one easy enough. The best place I have found to get dry ice is Continental Carbonic, they have locations all over. But if you can't get that the next best thing is liquid CO2 which you can get in a lot more places since it can be contained in a cylinder under pressure. It isn't as easy to work with though and you have to be careful with it as it will give you freezer burn. But anywhere that has a soda fountain or beer on tap will have it.

Being in that area of the country you probably have a better option though. You for sure have cattle in the area and most ranches brand with liquid nitrogen. If they don't have anything like that around look for a place that does bull semen. Again you have to be careful with it but it is an order of magnitude colder than dry ice. Get a stainless vacuum thermos bottle to put it in. Don't seal the top, it creates a lot of gas as it evaporates, think balloon with too much air. Again be careful with it, stuff is seriously dangerous, but they let cowboys play with it so just requires common sense. And it will pour where you want it to go. Build a dam to contain it where you need it to cool the part and it will cause serious shrinkage. If you can get to the spindle bore from the chuck side and pour it inside that will give you the most bang for your buck.


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## vocatexas (May 2, 2019)

I raise cattle for a living. Nobody around here cold-brands because we have no easy access to dry ice/liquid CO2. 

I hadn't thought about the fact they ship semen with it though. I'll call my veterinarian tomorrow. Thanks for thinking outside the box! That's one of the things I love about this forum; you can bang your head against a problem for days and somebody with a fresh perspective can come up with a completely different solution to the same problem.


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## john.k (May 3, 2019)

i would not go too cold.......the steel will become brittle ,and may shatter like glass at very low temps...............if the chuck is bolted ,remove it from the threaded plate,and apply heat to the outer margin of the threaded plate,at the same time as the dry ice  in the spindle.......................I personally prefer chucks bolted to a flange,and all my big lathes have that.........makes using cheap secondhand chucks easy........I recently bought an unused 20" Pratt steel body 4 jaw,and a Pratt 12" steel 3 jaw for cheap..........dunno what the list price on that lot would be.


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## martik777 (May 3, 2019)

I once had to remove the spindle with the chuck still attached, put the spindle in a vise and stood on a 10' bar to finally free it.


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## stioc (May 3, 2019)

Just make sure there are no set-screws holding it in place (my small 9x20 lathe with a screw-on chuck also has two set screws to keep it from coming loose during normal operation). Also, are the threads left-handed by chance? I've ruined a few things in the past before realizing the thread I was struggling with was left handed


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## vocatexas (May 5, 2019)

I've checked for set-screws and can't find any. I would assume the threads are right-handed or else the chuck would screw itself off the spindle under a heavy cut.


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