# Ready to order my first mill, trying to make an educated choice



## Rockgolfer (Mar 12, 2019)

Hello all,
Been browsing for a few days off and on and ready to get my feet wet and jump in. I used a mill over 20 years ago in metal shop class during high school. I can weld and run a cnc router(no gcode needed) and water jet for a stone fabrication shop.

I am looking to make some tools for the shop most likely out of aluminum. I am also looking to get into knife making and plan on milling a lot of titanium.

I would love to convert to a cnc mill but dont think that will be in the budget for atleast 6 months or so.

Maybe a few more details are needed and I am happy to add any info needed. Does it sound like the pm-30mv is the right machine? Can I get away with the 25? Knowing I wont go cnc for 6 months to a year should I get the DRO added from PM? 

I have zero tooling or parts or anything and would like to keep it all around 3k to start. If I go DRO on the 30 that doesnt leave me much room for anything else. I can always scrounge for tooling money every paycheck so not to worried about 6 months from now. Just looking to get up and running asap.

Appreciate any advice you all can share, thanks for your time.

Jeff


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## Spotshooter (Mar 12, 2019)

I just bought a PM30

My 2 key decision points -
1). I needed a mill that could make a cut that was almost 20” long -  so table travel in one direction is a big deal
       I do gunsmithing work on rifles so I needed to have enough travel to cover the barrel / action are = ~20”

2). I wanted a machine that I could upgrade to CNC if I needed to as a part time CNC vs. 24 hour a Day big dog CNC.
The PM30 is convertible, and I can add it on later - this of course I needed in case I start making parts, cheaper machines
From other sources are not so upgradeable, and are lose so I went with the PM30.

Don’t forget you need to order some indicators, a vice (not optional) to hold the parts, and mills...    so add at least 500 to your price... 
BUT - Cry once is a good thing...

If you look at my other post I’m upgrading from a mini-mill from Grizzly, which I lived with for 5 years...   it was cheap and worked ok - but now I will be selling it and kind of wish I had just gone big day one - at the end of the day I would have repeated the same path, but it’s cheaper not too.


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

I bought a PM 727V nine months ago along with my 1340 GT lathe and while the lathe is awesome, the mill really wasn’t big enough for gunsmithing long-range BR stocks.  So I started looking to upgrade.  The rule with machine tools is to buy the largest and highest quality that you can afford/have space for.  Also, buy more basic machine and less frills—they can be added later.  With that in mind I wound up with the 833T, a Taiwan machine that is about the largest I can get in my garage.  

I had narrowed it down the 833 and the 940.  The 940 was bigger but not as good of quality.  I chose quality over the larger size.  I am glad I did.  Having the Taiwan made 1340 GT lathe next to the Chinese made 727V really showed the difference in quality between Taiwan and China.  Now that I have the 833, I am set.  

The Chinese mills are not terrible, they are decent and functional.  If the Taiwan mill just isn’t in your budget, then get the heaviest Chinese mill that you can.  Guys seem to do very well with the 932 and the 940. Chances are had I got the 30MV instead of the 727, I wouldn’t have upgraded.


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## steamingspud (Mar 14, 2019)

I just fit a Fanuc robodrill in a garage. Used ones go for new tormach prices, and tooling isn’t too expensive. 

Like someone said, if you have the room (in this case say 90 inches height) get the biggest that’ll fit. Time isn’t just money, especially in a hobby environment. If a project on a slower retrofit or cheaper mill took 10 days and a pile of scrap, the fanuc would do it in one with a nicer looking similar sized pile of scrap, but do it in one. That’s nine days you could have been sitting around staring at your machine drinking beer. 

Always something better to do. I promise it’s worth it.


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## steamingspud (Mar 14, 2019)

Sorry, I want to show off. Here’s a picture:






The chip sweeper was not included.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 14, 2019)

Appreciate the feedback everyone. If things go right, I could see myself buying one of those enclosed cnc machines down the road but not in the budget right now.

Ceiling height or size is no issue for me. I have an apartment above a shop and have an area with a 14 foot roof.

Is the 932 a better machine than the 30mv?

I just realized the 30mv does not have a tilt head and that's a feature I would like (90* if possible).

Any other machines, manufacturers I should look at? I dont mind stretching to 3k for the initial machine purchase.

Steamingspud, I have 3 of those chip sweeping machines. Temperamental at times but worth the investment so far


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## T Bredehoft (Mar 14, 2019)

Chip sweepers are generally more expensive than any machine we can  afford. Don't discount their value.


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

The 932 is a significant upgrade from the 30MV.  The 932 is much heavier, has a bigger table, etc.  For a $3k budget I would probably get the 932M.


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## Winegrower (Mar 14, 2019)

I have always wondered why people purchase new smaller mills when for the same or lower price used Bridgeports/clones are available.   To me the value/cost ratio is better with a used Bridgeport.   Parts are readily available and pretty reasonable, the work envelope is relatively huge, available power is good, it's solid and reliable, etc.    Is it size?  Weight?   Just easier to find and get delivered?   What?


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

There are two very significant reasons.  The first is space and/or he ability to handle a certain sized machine.  My driveway is so steep that the only reasonable way to get something into the garage is by putting it in back of a pickup and backing in.  We did tow in my 2150 lbs gun safe but doing that was iffy as it was and a really bad idea with a knee mill. A bench mill is much easier to handle.

The second reason is really common sense.  When we are new to a task there is much we don’t know.  When you have lived long enough you are aware of your lack of knowledge in a new endeavor.  This means you don’t know what to look for in used machine equipment.  I can look at a rifle, a trumpet, or a vehicle and tell you immediately if it is a good value and useable or repairable.  When I bought my lathe and mill I could not make that same evaluation with machine tools.

There is a LOT of old machine tools that are junk.  There are a bunch more that would work well IF you know what to look for and know what/how to repair it. If you don’t know that, you will wind up like my friend that has several mills and lathes and most of them are not useable.

Best I can tell a decent condition used Bridgeport runs $5k or more, and I can’t get safety one into my garage, so it would be pointless for me to buy one.  Therefore there is no better solution for me that the exact mill and lathe I have now.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 14, 2019)

I think INTJ nailed it. I dont have the skills or knowledge to rebuild a machine right now. If it comes time for a future purchase at that time I would be looking bigger and would have those skills.

Reading up on the 932, I dont like reading about the tolerance issues. Guys buying new machines and taking them apart to shim and fix the tolerance issues. What's the point of buying a new machine then?

The 833 seems like a great machine and maybe worth saving a little more for? Will it handle titanium? INTJ, how is the accuracy and backlash? Did you need to disassemble and fix anything?

Really appreciate the open conversation, its helping a lot. Just a little lost on which direction to go right now.


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## wrmiller (Mar 14, 2019)

INTJ said:


> There are two very significant reasons.  The first is space and/or he ability to handle a certain sized machine.  My driveway is so steep that the only reasonable way to get something into the garage is by putting it in back of a pickup and backing in.  We did tow in my 2150 lbs gun safe but doing that was iffy as it was and a really bad idea with a knee mill. A bench mill is much easier to handle.
> 
> The second reason is really common sense.  When we are new to a task there is much we don’t know.  When you have lived long enough you are aware of your lack of knowledge in a new endeavor.  This means you don’t know what to look for in used machine equipment.  I can look at a rifle, a trumpet, or a vehicle and tell you immediately if it is a good value and useable or repairable.  When I bought my lathe and mill I could not make that same evaluation with machine tools.
> 
> ...



What HE said... 

A neighbor up in CO started going on at me about how great used machines were and that I was an idiot for buying my 935. 

Well, I could actually get the 935 up my steep driveway (with help from friends) and it fit within the space I had available. I also didn't have to replace worn out/broken parts, nor have the machine re-scraped for thousands of dollars. I simple set it up, oiled it, installed the VFD and power drives, and it's been working great ever since. And from a capacity stand-point it's a perfect match to my 1340GT. But then I only build pistols and an occasional AR or M1A and do small hobby stuff. 

The neighbor who was giving me grief? He bought a used BP, only to find out that it had some serious wear issues and needed various repairs. So he bought another mill to use it as a parts source. Last I heard, neither was working. Whatever.

With regards to the quality vs. size perspective: I learned the hard way to get the highest quality machine I can afford/use, even if it's a bit smaller, instead of going for a cheap(er) made larger machine with a bunch of 'extras'. YMMV.


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

I just got the 833 setup so I haven’t machined anything yet.  It’s movement is smooth and backlash is much less than in the 727.  It is also very sturdy. It’s max speed is 1500 rpm and it has a 220v motor. I don’t know much about machining titanium but if needed you could always upgrade the motor. 

When talking to Matt at PM about the 940 vs 833 he said he always recommend a Taiwan built machine.  The next step up from the 833 is one off the Taiwan built knee mills.  I would have got one of those if I had a way to get into my garage. That said, I am not limited by the 833.  

They won’t have anymore in stock for a couple of months.  I highly recommend calling/e-mailing PM and talking to Matt.  He will help you make your decision.  BTW, I have not been able to find any other brand of Taiwanese machine that competes with PM feature-wise for the price.


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## wrmiller (Mar 14, 2019)

The 833 should handle titanium fine. If you know what you're doing, and stay within the machine's intended work envelope.

I machined my first titanium compensator on a Sherline lathe and mill. Not very easily, but it got done.


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## Spotshooter (Mar 14, 2019)

SPACE is the answer...  to why a smaller mill vs. a bridgeport

   Frankly gun smith wise - if you are a pistol guy you want something heavy, but if you are only inletting stocks, meaning - if you aren’t a bench rest smith - you don’t need to true the forearm to buttstock (a good 27-33” travel or more), then you Only need ~20” for a barrelled action inlet job.


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## wrmiller (Mar 14, 2019)

Spotshooter said:


> SPACE is the answer...  to why a smaller mill vs. a bridgeport
> 
> Frankly gun smith wise - if you are a pistol guy you want something heavy, but if you are only inletting stocks, meaning - if you aren’t a bench rest smith - you don’t need to true the forearm to buttstock (a good 27-33” travel or more), then you Only need ~20” for a barrelled action inlet job.



Pistolsmithing is not hard on machines. Accuracy is more important than the ability to take a heavy cut IMO. But that's just me.


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## Spotshooter (Mar 14, 2019)

Good point...


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

Just for perspective, here is what a long range BR rifle stock looks like in a mill that is too small.


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## wrmiller (Mar 14, 2019)

Ooof...

That takes me back a few years.


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## Spotshooter (Mar 14, 2019)

I learned gunsmithing from Gordy Gritters classes...   I think I may have seen one of those somewhere 

IF ... I was going to focus on BR stock’s I would have gotten at table that was more like 49”..

I’m more of a PRS build guy, our Original poster (didn’t mean to steal the thread), was smaller parts so he’s fine.
For PRS, I used to shoot tactical while in the military, now I’m just an accuracy nut...   so I have some good DNA for the work.


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## raven7usa (Mar 14, 2019)

Rockgolfer said:


> Appreciate the feedback everyone. If things go right, I could see myself buying one of those enclosed cnc machines down the road but not in the budget right now.
> 
> Ceiling height or size is no issue for me. I have an apartment above a shop and have an area with a 14 foot roof.
> 
> ...


Last time I checked, the PM 30 head DID tilt 90* left and right. Double check that spec.


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

If it would have fit I would have got a larger mill.  That said, the best long range BR stock is Alex Wheelers LRB stock that McMillan makes.  I don’t plan to do any flattop inlets but I could if I needed to.  I have already stretched the table travel on my 833T  to 22.2” and I think I can get get 22.5”.  You need 21.75” to do a flattop LRB.  All other stocks I will work on are not an issue. Not remotely.......  A semi-inlet LRB doesn’t need much table travel at all to finish.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 14, 2019)

I am enjoying the drift with comments, it all helps. Just to be devils advocate, how do any of the grizzly machines stack up? Any one in particular in this price range that I should compare?

I just reread the specs and missed it, thanks for that.

3000 rpm is nice. If I cnc this down the road does that help with backlash tolerances? What's reasonable backlash in a 3k machine?


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## Spotshooter (Mar 14, 2019)

Why do you think the PM30 head doesn’t tilt...   it does.


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

When I did the comparison for what I was looking at, PM almost always had more/better features at every price point.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 14, 2019)

I see it has the tilt head now, no worries.

I keep leaning back to the 30mv for the easy cnc upgrade with the belt drive motor. Tool specs I have read show 2500rpm for titanium so the 3000 rpm off the bat is perfect.

When I cnc it will any dro I put on now be worthless? As in, will I need to remove them? Or can certain ones still be left on for the occasional manual work?


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

People CNC the 932 and 940 quite often, and the are north heavier machines with bigger tables than the 30.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 14, 2019)

Isn't the added cost of going to belt drive and higher rpm in the $750 to $1000 range? Just seams like a hefty up charge in the future I guess.

While I will be doing titanium, we are talking knife handles, 2x5" max pieces. Other uses are putter heads I want to make out of stainless steel also not very big and some aluminum tools for my current job. I know everywhere I read says more weight and bigger is better, just hard to know if I truly need that.

Appreciate all your help INTJ, it's much appreciated


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## INTJ (Mar 14, 2019)

I don’t know about the belt drive vs gear drive.  CNC is going to be spendy, regardless.  Matt at Precision Matthews can get you pointed in the right direction.


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## steamingspud (Mar 15, 2019)

This thread ran off while I wasn’t looking, wow. 

I bought my first Bridgeport for $500 with a few nobs busted. Other than that, tool room quality. 

Next mill was smaller, more expensive, and had all sorts of problems. Still functioned and is an excellent candidate for a cnc conversion, but not good enough for my purposes. You saw my latest venture: no regrets, and it’s fairly old and well used. 

I saw a few comments saying it’s hard to tell if there’s problems with a machine. Odds are everything is repairable, with mild exceptions. I would gander buying a bench top machine is going to be as much trouble as it’s bigger cousins, depending on what kind of work you want to do. My feeling is if it can’t cut steel it’s a router. 

The nice thing about Bridgeport’s is they’re light. I strapped one to a tractor loader with forks and could have taken it anywhere the tractor could go. There’s all sorts of conversion kits out there, it’s a great budget option. 

Here’s an auction I lost. There were probably problems with the machines I’m sure, but they were running the day of the auction, and the price is right. The deals are out there, just need lots of friends and a bit of luck.


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## INTJ (Mar 15, 2019)

I used to think buying used was the best way.  But after several years of having used stuff failing to be the good deal it seemed, I am very slow to buy anything that is used.  If it is a decent piece in excellent condition chances are the price is close to new.  If it is listed for a really good price, it probably has issues.  I quit trying to find the magical “super deal” a long time ago.

When it comes to machine tools, I keep thinking of my friend who has SEVERAL used lathes and mills, and most of them do not operate. They need varying levels of repair.  Once I set up my new lathe and mill from PM, I started making stuff and had no equipment reliability/functionality issues.

Now there is nothing wrong with buying a project, but you absolutely MUST know what you are doing.  I know that from a LOT of personal experience in a lot of areas of endeavor.  Many times getting a project is up to speed is more expensive than just buying new.  All I have to do is look at a mismatched set of large sockets I bought used years ago, and quickly found I could have bought the same quality in a new set for the same money.  Or remember all the cheap rifles—new and used— I bought thinking I could upgrade them into something good for less money.  It is rare that we get more than we pay for, and going cheap and used is more expensive in the long run.

I currently have the largest machines I can get into my garage.  However, if I did want a larger mill my choices today are a used Bridgeport for $5-$7k or one of PMs Taiwan made knee mills.  I would not even hesitate to get the PM.  Why?

1.  PM Taiwan mills are of well known and well established as being of high quality

2.  They have a 5-year warranty and excellent customer service if something does go wrong—unlike a used or reconditioned Bridgeport where you are most likely on your own

3.  I don’t have to worry about worn components or a mediocre reconditioning job

The best approach is to buy the best quality we can afford and avoid used items until we know exactly what we are getting into.


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## wrmiller (Mar 15, 2019)

Man, if I had that kind of budget I'd be ALL over that PM949TV! And for all the reasons you stated. 

But I don't, so I'll just have to wimp along with my little PM935 and be glad I had the forethought to get it while I was still working.


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## INTJ (Mar 15, 2019)

I had the space and budget, the 949 would probably be my my choice as well.  In the meantime Ill just have to make due with the 833.


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## Spotshooter (Mar 16, 2019)

This is how I ended up with a PM30 -  I prioritized my spend on my lathe, but still needed a mill, that had about 20 inches of travel.

After thinking about it a bit, I realized I may want to make parts via a CNC upgrade so I picked a mill that fit that bill the best - for me it was the PM30.   If I went bigger I started running out of space, and frankly using more table than the PM30 would only happen a couple of times in 4 years if at all...

I decided to get the power feed, but held off on the DRO because I might convert.


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## INTJ (Mar 16, 2019)

There really are no wrong answers in this--except for my own first mill purchase.  While like Spot I prioritized the mill over the lathe--which is appropriate for gunsmithing rifles, I under bought the mill.  I didn't know any better at the time, but some of these things you have to get into a bit before you get a full understanding of what you need.  I could have easily ft the 30V (vs the 727MV) into my budget last year but I didn't understand enough about table travel and long range BR stocks last year.  

I and some others here  have pushed back pretty hard on the idea of buying an old used machine vs a buying new high quality machine, but that simply has to to with level of experience.  If a guy knows what he is doing either through personal experience or extensive research and study, buying something like an old Bridgeport or South Bend isn't a bad decision.  Its the guys with too little experience/study buying old machine tools that get into trouble with used.  Over the years, I have gone through that trouble with: rifles, trumpets, hand tools, vehicles, computers, et al.

Nowadays I know enough about those above items that I know what a good value is for a properly functioning, reliable used item that will do what I need.  I expect that I will soon enough develop that understanding for Laths and Mills.  For me, and only if/when I get to move into a house with a large enough shop in 3-4 years, I could see getting a used Bridgeport/Taiwan Clone and another lathe.  

The Bridgeport would probably be setup only for inletting stocks and the other lathe would let me keep my 1340 GT setup for chambering.  The other would have a buck chuck dialed in to under .0005" and would be used for muzzle brakes, crowns, die modifications etc.  In 3-4 years I should know what I am doing with mills and lathes, and since I will already have the 1340GT and 833T, adding an old mill or lathe that needs work won't keep me from making chips.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 16, 2019)

All good points INTJ. Reading more and more I feel lucky to have a forklift at work to receive delivery and a 3500 chevy flatbed with a crane to drive the mile from work and unload in my shop. I am leaning more for the pm932m. I wish I could afford the 835s but it wouldnt be in the budget for 6 months with all the tooling I still need to buy. The 940 is out of stock. Maybe by the time it comes back in I could spring for it. The more and more I research, the more I get weight and size mean everything. The pm30 is pretty much off my radar now as I feel I would be pushing that machine too hard. It's only money right haha


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## Spotshooter (Mar 16, 2019)

I concur - if you have the money and the room... get a knee bridge port equivalent= tiawnese if you can.

BUT... I know some guys who bought exactly that and then sold them to get CNC’s... ouch..   so even when you go big you can still have re-investment issues depending on the work you “might” get into.

I’m assuming the bigger machines add VFD’s as well -  that increases the cost a bit more than most think...
Then the vise and chuck... so watch your total spend

Your wife can’t “UN-shoot” you. 

I went 14x40 on my lathe so I have a foot brake (mechanical brake vs. a smaller machine).


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 16, 2019)

My day job is in the granite industry, I got lots of friends in other trades always looking to swap work. Landlord said he will run whatever power I need whenever I am ready. I got an ex wife so no worries there either. Once I have a mill life will be good and I'll have no one to bother me all night and weekend while I play in the mad science laboratory besides my buddies who bring beer by to see what I am messing with


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## wrmiller (Mar 16, 2019)

If someone thinks they want or need a CNC in the future, then a bed/bench mill makes sense. For me, I had zero interest or need of a CNC because everything I do is one-off custom stuff. So a small knee-mill seemed the right choice for me.

I couldn't afford the 1440, and honestly don't need it for what I do. For a few hundred bucks I added a VFD to my 1340 and now enjoy variable speed, soft-start, and a micro switch that I set to stop the lathe when it is tripped. Great for ID threading and blind hole boring. I also have a switch that gives me a one or three second spin down.

I later spent the money I saved on a very pricey 8" 3-jaw set-rite PBA.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 16, 2019)

Makes a lot of sense wrmiller. If the time ever comes I need a cnc for production parts I should just buy a cnc at that point because profits would justify it. Plus, I would still want a manual mill for custom and one off stuff I dont want to program. If I get the mill and I just dont enjoy as much as I thought(always need an exit plan) or my stuff doesnt sell. The table mill is a much smaller lose and probably easier to sell. I think I am done deciding. Next week or two I will place an order for a PM 932.

Really appreciate all the help guys, thank you.

Are the PM vise, collets, clamping set and drill chuck worth picking up or do you guys have other recommendations?


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## INTJ (Mar 16, 2019)

The PM vises—and they have a couple, will work great for stock inletting.  An AR police armored told me that a Kurt vise is sturdier for machining metal.  I don’t see how the PM 4” would have any issues with metal though.  The PM clamping set has worked great for me as has the ultra precision chuck.  Matt is very focused on quality and will shoot straight with you.  I found I needed a couple of v-blocks, an angle plate, some parallels, edge finders, etc.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 16, 2019)

I had already decided on the blue 5" vise and the precision chuck. From all I read and the money I am throwing down, I had a feeling the stuff was good but wanted to check. 

Anyone run a dual side by side vise setup? Thinking this would be a great idea for multiple part work.


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## wrmiller (Mar 16, 2019)

I have four of their drill chucks, both the large and small, for both my mill and lathe. 

The Homge vises are very good.

I also have Matt's 5C collet set in 1/32nds. and they work well enough for what I do.

And a bunch of other stuff I can't think of ATM. And no complaints.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 16, 2019)

Dumb new guy question. Looking at these amazing vise's with perfectly machined bottoms. Are there special blocks that you put underneath a piece to not run the bit into the vise when you finish the hole? I know I am missing something very simple here.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 16, 2019)

Kind of answered my own question, vice parallels or stepped vise jaws. When using parallels I am assuming the downward pressure of a good vise keeps them in place?

I have so much to learn


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## wrmiller (Mar 17, 2019)

Rockgolfer said:


> Kind of answered my own question, vice parallels or stepped vise jaws. When using parallels I am assuming the downward pressure of a good vise keeps them in place?
> 
> I have so much to learn



Good answer. 

When I install new vice jaws I always machine a step .1"x.1" in the top of the jaws. I hold a lot of small pieces like pistol slides, frames, sight bases, etc.,etc., and the step is just easier and faster than using parallels all the time.

Any time I put a piece into the mill's vise (I got lucky and found a used, great condition 5" Kurt for my 935). I always smack it down with a deadblow hammer I keep nearby. Easiest way to see if the part lifts is when you clamp it down, see if the parallels are loose under the workpiece. If loose, give it a love tap to tighten things up.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 17, 2019)

I have watched guys smack pieces in videos and now I know exactly why! Much appreciated wrmiller, thank you. I have been watching videos all night lol. 

I am already picturing making a U shaped clamping fixture to pin multiple pieces, elevated in a vice to make one set of location touching to process many holes in multiple pieces to save constant set up time. All these years of being in a production environment and problem solving are going to pay off in this "hobby"  lol


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 21, 2019)

Just placed my order for the PM 932 

So, anyone care to share some recommendations on tooling. End mills, drill bits, calipers and such? Point me at some items direct or just some websites.

Thanks again everyone for your help in this process


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## wrmiller (Mar 21, 2019)

I have bought quite a bit of stuff from Shars, although I typically do it on Ebay instead of their website as sometimes they charge WAY too much for shipping.

Some things you can skimp on, price-wise, like hold-down kits and such. If you have not done much of this, may I suggest some of the cheaper end mills like those from India and whatnot? Once you get a bit more comfortable doing this you can start spending the big bucks for the higher quality cutters. Just a suggestion. 

My personal preference is not to skimp on measuring tools like calipers and micrometers. Get the best you can afford, that way you only pay once. But again this is just my opinion. Depending on the accuracy you are trying to attain you could probably start with a 6" caliper from Shars or another vendor and do fine with it. You can upgrade later as your skills progress.

Spend the money and get a good quality R8 collet set. Along with a good quality vise. Matt's collet set is pretty decent, as are his blue vises.

Eventually, you'll spend more on tooling and measuring equipment than you did for your mill if you are like many of us here. Welcome to the club!


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 21, 2019)

Good advice on the cheaper bits to start, that's the sound advice I need to here. I measure stuff all day at work now so I certainly know not to skimp there. Have any recommendations for brands of caliper?

I ordered the r8 sleeve set and hold down kit with the machine. Glacern has a March madness sale right now so getting their 5" vice and drill chuck at a great price and using the free shipping code 

Cant wait to get this all here and up and running.


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## ttabbal (Mar 21, 2019)

I use a cheap digital caliper, but I don't expect it to be more than 0.005" accurate. I switch to micrometers after that. Mine are older Starrett and Mitutoyo I got used for decent prices. I've been happy with them. 

I got some cheap HSS cutters and started with aluminum. After that I got nicer HSS and carbide on steel. A fly cutter is particularly handy, though the X power feed is a requirement so that I don't go insane slowly cranking it. You might have more patience than I do.


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## wrmiller (Mar 21, 2019)

I a bit old school on calipers and have a USA made Starrett 6" dial caliper that I won't part with. Same for my old school Starrett micrometer set I got on Ebay. I bought a couple of new digital micrometers a while back, but got tired of putting batteries in the darn things. 

In my own defense though, I typically only work to a thou tolerance on most things, and occasionally to a half thou so I really don't need reading to 5 places... 

I test my calipers and micrometers on gauge blocks and pins fairly frequently and I trust my calipers to a couple thou or better, but it depends on what I'm measuring.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 21, 2019)

Slacking last week on ordering cost me a couple hundred as the more basic model was out of stock. My version has power x feed and the pdf on the z


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## INTJ (Mar 21, 2019)

I think my experience mirrors most here.  I love my Mitituyo digital calipers, and my Fowler’s are okay.  My Mitituyo 1-2” digital mic—for measuring barrel tenons—is awesome.  The Pittsburgh 1” digital mic is okay for quick measurements.  That said, the Pittsburg non-digital mic set (from Harbor Freight) is as accurate as the Mitituyo.  Don’t even bother with a cheap digital dial indicator, though cheap non-electronic ones are okay.

So I think with any electronic measuring tool quality is a must.  Non-electronic tools are more forgiving.  That said, my Interapid long reach indicator is too notch.  Make sure to buy good quality measuring tools where the measuring is critical.  

I like to buy better quality mills.  The work without fuss, aren’t that expensive, and the quality of the mill is a big determiner in the quality of the finish.  I am not so worried about getting expensive high quality clamps, v-blocks, and angle plates.  When it comes to a rotary vise, I will probably go with a Taiwan made Vertex brand. 

In general, like with most things, aim toward higher quality. I am still fairing new to machining but now new to precision measuring and gunsmithing.  I find my learning curve has been steep and I have quickly been able to figure out where I need to quality.


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## Rockgolfer (Mar 21, 2019)

I want to bore the 5mm pivot bearing hole. Anyone suggest a boring head for that size? Also, is it called a boring probe to locate it?


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## B2 (Apr 5, 2019)

Rockgolfer said:


> Hello all,
> Been browsing for a few days off and on and ready to get my feet wet and jump in. I used a mill over 20 years ago in metal shop class during high school. I can weld and run a cnc router(no gcode needed) and water jet for a stone fabrication shop.
> 
> I am looking to make some tools for the shop most likely out of aluminum. I am also looking to get into knife making and plan on milling a lot of titanium.
> ...



Hi Jeff,
Just a suggestion:

Before you decide on your mill, and especially if you have never cut pure metallic titanium I suggest that you get some and just try cutting it, even with a hack saw.   It is is very interesting stuff!   It is hard to work and can cause problems. I had to cut a couple of large (3 in diameter) very thin (a few mills thick) smooth Ti washers to be used as bearing surfaces and so I purchase sheets and turned them on my old South Bend 10.  It was a task as my tooling quickly dulled.     Really good, sharp and special material tooling is required and for some folks in the distant past they resort to heating the material up a lot during the cutting process just to soften it up.    It has a high melting point temperature, is hard and briddle, and tends to chip and the pieces burn when being worked.  

You certainly do not want to get a weak mill that does not hold the tool firmly or allows vibrations or bending.    https://www.americanmachinist.com/features/cool-tips-cutting-titanium 

PS. I purchased a PM 940M CNC, but have not tried to cut anything nearly as hard as Ti with it yet.  Over all it seems like a nice heavy machine for the money,  but it was more than 3K.  You may want to give up the CNC, besides it takes a lot of time to do the programming.... usually more than it would have taken to cut the part by hand.... especially if the parts are straight forward.   While my CNC came with crank handles to manually move the stages, the stepper motor cogging (jerking) is an issue .... so one needs to disconnect the motors to move the stages smoothly by hand.    

Good luck,

Dave


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