# Stick or Post Frame Shop



## ddickey (Jul 16, 2020)

I know stick built has traditionally been more expensive but give me your opinions on either.


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## pontiac428 (Jul 16, 2020)

I got bids on both, and went with the pole frame in the end.  The pole building I got finished out at $120k, which is not far from the rough-finish stick-built bid for $150k for the same space.  I found that the pole frame was a good canvas to work with, and the builder was top-notch.  The building is solid, on big timbers and full-span joists on the second floor.  I was far better off with the pole setting on my property layout than I would have been for a traditional poured foundation (building went in built nearly on top of my property lines), and the foundation would have blown the costs skyward in my case.  I don't see any major difference in what it would take to plumb, wire, and insulate either building style.  Metal buildings and metal roofs last longer than traditional materials.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jul 16, 2020)

As a "*NON*-professional", old school, essentially self taught "builder", I personally prefer post and beam construction over stud wall construction. Much of my construction is concerned with cost of materials, time (labor) is usually not a concern. Balloon construction is fine for a dwelling house, but the floor joists don't have the capacity of a stud wall. A wood floor, as a non-sparking surface, would last well over 100 years if properly installed. Concrete is the usual approach for floors these days. 

If concrete blocks or brick are to be used for the lower parts of the walls, a footer is cast as part of the floor as a "monolithic" slab. If the walls are to be wood, posts may be planted ahead of the floor being poured for bearing the weight. Again, if posts are to be set on top of the concrete, a footer should be included in pouring the floor. The footer *must go below the frost line.*

There "were" many sources of knowledge for such post and beam construction, pre-internet. Many of those books are now out of print because of the internet. I can't say what is or is not available now. My father dates from before WW1, being a grown man during WW2 and near 50 when I came along. Much of my knowledge came from him, as did the mindset to be conservative with materials. 

Stud wall construction reached its' peak following WW2, with today's techniques being a matter of "fine tuning" existing methods. Post and beam has fallen by the wayside because it is so labor intensive. For shop construction, balloon construction is not considered. A modern approach to post and beam construction is the metal "barns", available on "Craig's List" under Farming supplies. Interior finishing is not included, but should be considered before committing. The metal "shops" are not conductive to ease of insulation or finish. But the price is quite reasonable.

A "caveat" to be considered is that I am located in the "deep south". Insulation and snow loading is a much lesser concern here than "up north". In this area, the roof only needs enough pitch to shed water. In the deep north, a sharper roof pitch and possibly heated roof are a major concern. As expressing an opinion, I should only be considered as stirring up the mindset. if you are looking for a "turn-key" building, look to local builders for climate awareness.

.


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## DavidR8 (Jul 16, 2020)

I think I'm confused... @ddickey I know what stick built means but are you thinking of post frame as a pole 'barn' construction as compared to "post and beam"?
Post and beam will be significantly more expensive than stick built which is more expensive than a pole barn.
Pole barn



Post and beam


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## NCjeeper (Jul 16, 2020)

Red iron steel building?


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## ddickey (Jul 16, 2020)

I mean a traditional slab poured and a garage built on top. 
Post frame I meant pole shop were the slab is floating and poured last.


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## ddickey (Jul 16, 2020)

I got a quote today for just the building, no concrete, insulation, interior, electrical or site prep for $26K.
I'd be willing to do a lot more of the building like insulation and electrical as well as in floor heat but builder who is building my house won't allow the project to start until after the closing. They break ground on Monday for the house. No idea how long that will take. I have no interest taking on those tasks in cold weather.


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## matthewsx (Jul 16, 2020)

I built a 40' x 60' commercial pole barn in Michigan back in 2012/13 would definitely go that route again for a shop. Best bang for the buck by far, I think we had about $85k into it with insulation, heat and a bathroom.

Check this thread out for some more ideas.









						Getting started: Shop questions
					

Hi,  I've been wanting to build a shop for several years now.  I'm finally almost in a place where I can do it.   I don't have a lot of experience - I worked with a CNC Mill and a manual lathe when I was an undergrad engineering student, and that's about it.  I am approaching this as a hobby.  I...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				





John


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## BGHansen (Jul 17, 2020)

My shop is in a 40' x 96' barn, conventional post/perlin/truss construction with a 5" reinforced concrete floor after the fact.  The barn started life as a 40' x 56' with 10' side walls, shingled roof.  Added on a 40' x 40' x 12' addition with a steel roof 10 years ago (dirt floor).  The original barn cost about $13K.  Paid $1.80 per sq. ft. for the 5" reinforced concrete so under $20K for the shell (in 1992).  I re-roofed the original 40' x 56' with steel 7 years ago for $3500.

To finish out the shop, I put in stud walls on 2' center with sole and top plates between the poles which are on 8' centers.  Also nailed studs flat to the 4"x 6" poles so that surface was flush with the header above.  I'd have to do the math, but the perimeter is around (40 + 40 + 32 + 32) 144'.  So double that in 8' 2x4's for the sole/top plates plus around 70 10' studs for the walls.  The inside walls are covered with 7/16" roofing OSB.  I mistakenly air nailed them down; now wish like heck I'd have screwed them down for access.  Used around 50 sheets of OSB at around $8 a sheet back in the day.  Ceiling is white pole barn steel which ran $25 per 16' run.  Used 26 sheets there.

Only problem I can recall having is getting occasional water leaks from the outside under the walls in the spring.  The outside perimeter base is 2 tongue/groove pressure treated 2x6" nailed to the beams, then steel siding nailed to that and the horizontal perlins running up the poles.  Being a newbie at the time, I didn't spec out a rodent guard piece of trim at the bottom of the steel to seal off the "outies" on the steel panels.  Snow will build up on the outside of the building and when it melts, could get through the openings at the "outsies", up the 2 x 6 skirt boards and through the wall.  I've since caulked every "outie" and installed a rodent-guard piece of trim.

I guess if you went stick/frame, you'd have your inside walls ready to go without the added framing I used.  If you poured a slab first, probably go with an 8" rise of cement around the base to keep the sole plates above grade?

I guess in summary, walking into my shop no one would really notice if it's stick/frame or pole construction.  With stick frame you'd probably use convention vinyl siding to match your house if that's important.  Thousands of shops in garages that are stick/frame, thousands in pole buildings also.  I haven't noticed any heaving of the slab in my shop after 28 years which could be an issue as it would push the side walls into the ceiling.

Bruce


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## ddickey (Aug 13, 2020)

@BGHansen Do you think the OSB is a good material for anchoring? There is a guy selling 5/8" OSB 4' x 8' for $10 sheet. Thinking about using this for the new shop interior. The pole barn people I met w/ today said osb is not a good choice but I'm not so sure about that.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 13, 2020)

@ddickey, $10/sheet is too high a price for OSB.  The per pallet price from Lowes/Home Depot is around $7/sheet.  You're in Menards territory, should be the same.  I recently finished my OSB interior sheeting in my shop.  What you were being warned about is OSB's strengths and weaknesses.  The stuff is insane strong in shear, but if you try to mount something on your wall with a screw, the screw will pull out.  You need to use "mollies" of some type.  I've tried several, from the metal ones you pound in to the plastic ones that split and swell as you tighten down, and they work.  For mounting, OSB is not anywhere as strong as laminate plywood.  If you mount "boards" (because I don't know a ledger from a perlin) and screw them into studs, then you have a nice structure to mount to.  Otherwise, add an extra fastener for every two and be observant of your weight load.  You can still mount plenty of stuff to OSB, you just have to treat it more like drywall and use good anchors if you can't get into studs.  It's the price you pay for saving thousands over plywood sheet...


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## ddickey (Aug 13, 2020)

Menards price is $20.97. $18.66 after rebate.
$25.43 for plywood same size. Probably going to need ~ 30 sheets. Upper 4' will be tin as well as the ceiling.
He also said lumbers price is skyrocketing.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 13, 2020)

Wow! I bought at 30% less in May. Plywood was more than double. It would have been nice, but I was already way over budget by the time I broke ground.

I think the fact that screws pull out of OSB is a minor obstacle. Use the right hardware and problem solved. If you want to put up some major weight, use the studs.


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## BGHansen (Aug 13, 2020)

ddickey said:


> @BGHansen Do you think the OSB is a good material for anchoring? There is a guy selling 5/8" OSB 4' x 8' for $10 sheet. Thinking about using this for the new shop interior. The pole barn people I met w/ today said osb is not a good choice but I'm not so sure about that.


I've been happy with the OSB, mine is 7/16" roof sheathing.  Like Pontiac428 said, great in shear, but adequate for hanging on the wall in random places.  I have some of the tubular "A" frame holders for air hoses and extension cords that are not in a stud and they've held fine.  I recall paying around $7 a sheet for mine, but 8' 2x4's were well under $2 at the time.  $10 for a 5/8" sheet sounds like a pretty good price.  Our Menards has 7/16" for $13 right now, 5/8" is $17.77, curiously 7/8" is $17.26 or cheaper than the 5/8" (plus an additional 11% when on rebate).

I regret air nailing mine up with 2 1/2" sinkers.  Royal PITA if I need to pull a panel at this point.  All of the ones I've pulled are now screwed in place.

Bruce


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## 7milesup (Aug 13, 2020)

ddickey said:


> Menards price is $20.97. $18.66 after rebate.
> $25.43 for plywood same size. Probably going to need ~ 30 sheets. Upper 4' will be tin as well as the ceiling.
> He also said lumbers price is skyrocketing.
> View attachment 333584



Good lord.  Those prices went out the roof.  Interesting thing is that checking the Menards website the cost of OSB is $14.55 per sheet.  I paid about $7.50 a sheet last year for my house.  BUT, the cost of a precut 2x6 is $6.04 which is only about 50 cents more than I paid last year I believe.
I covered my walls in sanded CDX grade 5/8" plywood.  Occasionally at Menards you will find plywood that has been sanded but did not make grade for the BC standard, so it gets placed in the CDX stacks.  I paid $15 a sheet last year.  I see now it is $25.  Man, I am glad I built when I did. LOL


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## ddickey (Aug 14, 2020)

Looks like they were all sold. You snooze you lose.





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## reds (Aug 14, 2020)

ddickey said:


> Looks like they were all sold. You snooze you lose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lumber prices are up because of the storms on the east coast.


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 14, 2020)

Sounds like an other score for Covid reading how prices have changed in less than a year.

Good read though. Depending on if my retirement home comes with a shop or I have to build one, this information is invaluable.


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## ddickey (Aug 14, 2020)

I found a guy selling a bunch of left over 5/8 cdx so think it was plywood.  $20/sheet. I only need about 30 or so. Might do it but nowhere to store.


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## 7milesup (Aug 14, 2020)

CDX is exterior grade plywood used for sheathing on walls or roofs.  It is usually pretty knotty with pieces missing etc.  You might find the sanded plywood I mentioned earlier at Menards for only $5 a sheet more.  $5x30 is only $150.  I would rather spend the extra money and get some nice stuff.  Depending on your schedule, time will solve this issue.  7/16" 4x8 OSB is my mark for determining where the market is.  I have seen it as low as $6 a sheet and honestly, no higher than what we are currently seeing.


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## 7milesup (Aug 14, 2020)

Here a few pics of my sanded BC 5/8" ply I bought last year for $15 a sheet at Menards.


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## tjb (Aug 14, 2020)

My shop started life as a 24 x 48 pole barn with dirt floor.  When I began to move from a livestock operation to automotive and machining, I converted it into an enclosed 4 bay garage with a concrete floor.  Given the ceiling height, we were able to get a backhoe in there and dig a 5' deep pit that I use for oil changing on vehicles and farm equipment.  I installed an air line and electricity in the pit before blocking the sides and pouring the slab, so I have lights/electricity and can use pneumatic tools down there.  A few years ago, I added a 16 x 20 studded wall annex to the building that is now the primary section for my machine shop.

I'm no builder, but it seems to me for a shop, you're better off with pole barn construction.  Given that my original construction was primarily used for equipment storage, I built it with higher than normal floor-to-ceiling span, which was a relatively easy and cost efficient option with a pole barn.  I suspect studded wall construction would have been far more expensive to achieve the same clearance and structural stability.

If I had it to build over again, I would change very little.  The original build did not anticipate plumbing and electrical supply needs, so I would have incorporated tweaks to allow for that.  Both have been conveniently and appropriately added, but it would have been easier if factored into the original construction.  Other than that, pole barn construction seems to be ideal for a heavily used shop.

Regards,
Terry


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## ddickey (Sep 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Good lord.  Those prices went out the roof.  Interesting thing is that checking the Menards website the cost of OSB is $14.55 per sheet.  I paid about $7.50 a sheet last year for my house.  BUT, the cost of a precut 2x6 is $6.04 which is only about 50 cents more than I paid last year I believe.
> I covered my walls in sanded CDX grade 5/8" plywood.  Occasionally at Menards you will find plywood that has been sanded but did not make grade for the BC standard, so it gets placed in the CDX stacks.  I paid $15 a sheet last year.  I see now it is $25.  Man, I am glad I built when I did. LOL


$34/sheet now.


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## pontiac428 (Sep 6, 2020)

ddickey said:


> $34/sheet now.



Good lawd!  Time to consider masonry!


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## ddickey (Sep 6, 2020)

Shop is going up in October.


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## pdentrem (Sep 6, 2020)

Prices for wood treated or not have doubled and more since April. Just built a wooden platform for a shed floor and 10 sheet of plywood treated and 24 2x8s over $1200!


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## 7milesup (Sep 7, 2020)

@ddickey I was just at Menards and was floored at the prices. Nearly $22 a sheet for 7/16 OSB. Ran into a friend there and he was trying to re-do his deck. No materials. We both decided to heck with it and went kayaking with our families that day. LOL.


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## ddickey (Sep 7, 2020)

I'll need ~ 33 sheets. Would like 5/8" but may have to settle for 1/2"


			https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/hardwood-panels/4-x-8-sanded-utility-plywood/1252006/building-materials/panel-products/hardwood-panels/4-x-8-sanded-utility-plywood/1252015/building-materials/panel-products/hardwood-panels/4-x-8-sanded-utility-plywood/1252048/building-materials/panel-products/hardwood-panels/4-x-8-sanded-utility-plywood/1252015/p-1444441905962.htm


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## 7milesup (Sep 7, 2020)

Well, whichever way you go you won't regret plywood on the wall, that is for sure.  I have been installing cabinets and other stuff in my shop and it sure is nice not to have to find a stud.


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## Papa Charlie (Sep 7, 2020)

I wonder how much is just plain gouging.


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## ddickey (Sep 7, 2020)




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## ddickey (Sep 7, 2020)

No way prices can stay there for long. If I had larger cojones I would short that market.


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## NCjeeper (Sep 7, 2020)

Just picked up some lumber to build some work benches for the new shop. Talk about sticker shock. 1/2" plywood was 26 bucks a sheet. It was selling for 10 bucks beginning of summer.


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## matthewsx (Sep 7, 2020)

That makes the labor I put into reclaiming wood from my neighbors garage look worthwhile.


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## Karl_T (Sep 7, 2020)

Bit late to this thread...

I ordered a 40x60x14 post barn from the best builder in the area for $41K this spring. they finished about a month ago.  here in the north we have pretty good specs for snow load and deep post footings for frost.  Could have got it nearly 20% less from the cheapest builder. but ya gets what ya pays for.

My neighbor's shop burned to the ground 4 days ago. lost everything in it. he works for himself in HVAC. Just started the business 10 months ago.

Sounds like he can not replace the structure at any price before freeze up this year.


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## ddickey (Sep 7, 2020)

Oh man that's sad. Wasn't Brian Zeglen I hope.
Steve Nelson or Kenny Grimm.
Best builders in our area.


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## mike44 (Sep 7, 2020)

I have built post and beam and stick built structures. Pole barns are not the same as post and beam. Pole barns are inadequate for a shop, machine, wood etc. Ceilings are too high, insulating is a problem and siding needs a lot of preparation  to make it look straight. I have sided pole barns but not installed the poles and timbers. Because the poles are not in a line due to the difficulty of setting poles in a hole and in a line. 
If the poles are set fairly close together then the horizonal 2x4's may need minimal packing to get it straight. 
Often the poles are 10'-0" or more apart. This presents a problem for the siding crew.  I installed vertical 4x6's in between the poles and horizontal members nailed to it. Bottom of 4x6 bolted to concrete floor with an angle iron. Top of the 4x6 done similarly.
I do not know what the cost would be as I did the siding and framed and sheathed the roof only.
My own shop is stick built in 1997. It is 20'x30' and 8-0 ceilings. I sided the studs with 7/16" OSB inside and out. Inside I screwed the smooth side to the studs. I never painted the walls as the rustic look appealed to me. I have 9 windows on the first floor so I get plenty of light.
I have 120 volt and 220 volt receptacles on the wall and two on the floor. Cost was $9000.00 at that time, I recall 7/16" OSB around $5 /$6 then.
Naturally you can't compare costs from 1997 til today.
Post and beam construction is fine too. I have worked on historical homes that were framed this way. Studs were odd sizes ,about 2/3" x 4/5" .
Studs had a tenon that went into mortise and held tight with a draw peg.


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## tjb (Sep 7, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Well, whichever way you go you won't regret plywood on the wall, that is for sure.  I have been installing cabinets and other stuff in my shop and it sure is nice not to have to find a stud.


Ditto - 100%.


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## ddickey (Sep 25, 2020)

Guys. I will need to cut some holes in my new shop. Exhaust for the boiler and if I put in a minisplit next spring that will be more. I'd also like to do an exhaust fan but I'm thinking an air purifier would take care of stinky burning cutting oil and also take grit out of the air from grinding. Maybe an outdoor light, etc.
My question, is there a proper way to drill through the wall without ruining your vapor barrier and bat insulation? I've considered spray foam mainly because it would be so much more clean but realized that is silly since it will cost three times more and I am not wealthy.


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## pontiac428 (Sep 25, 2020)

@ddickey, the vapor barrier can be repaired with Tyvek tape.  Nothing to worry about there.  You will be required by fire code to dam all penetrations with fire foam and/or flashing.  Yep, the first hole hurts the most, but it gets easier.


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## 7milesup (Sep 25, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> @ddickey,   Yep, the first hole hurts the most, but it gets easier.



So many ways to respond to that...


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## ddickey (Sep 25, 2020)




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## 7milesup (Sep 25, 2020)

If possible Ddickey, use a long drill bit to go all the way through the wall, but be careful of "catching" the insulation and wadding it up around the bit.  Once you have the small hole, then come back and drill through the inner wall with the hole saw, then go on the outside and use the small hole you just made with pilot bit for the hole saw placement.  Whatever you do, don't run the hole saw all the way through the wall, that will spell disaster.  Also, make sure there is a slight downward angle to your hole (5 degrees or so) to ensure outside moisture will run away from the outside wall.  Caulk on both inside and outside wall penetrations and you should be good to go.


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