# Proper way to use lantern tool post



## dan97526 (Apr 9, 2019)

Hi,

I'm slowly familiarizing myself with my first lathe.  It's a Seneca Falls Star 12x36.  It has a lantern tool post with a wedge and several Armstrong Tool holders.

I am confused as to the use of the wedge in conjunction with the tool holders.  Is the wedge employed when using a tool holder, or is it only to be used when the tool bit is installed directly into the lantern?

Thanks,
Dan


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## pontiac428 (Apr 9, 2019)

The wedge goes in the lantern, and the lantern goes in the scrap pile never to be seen again.  Most folks use a AXA or BXA sized quick change tool post, and a tiny few use a 4-sided tool holder, but nobody uses lanterns, not even for nostalgia.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Apr 9, 2019)

I believe the wedge is used to adjust the toolbit cutting angle.


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## bill stupak (Apr 9, 2019)

It's used to adjust the height of the tool bit.


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2019)

The wedge is used to adjust the tool height to center, do not throw it in the scrap heap, they occasionally come in handy when the QC tool holder is too bulky to clear some special job; I have Alois and Aloris type tool posts on both of my lathes, but also retain my lantern tool posts, "just in case", along with the Armstrong tool holders, and even OK interchangeable  cutting tip tool sets for both the lathes and horizontal and vertical shapers.


pontiac428 said:


> The wedge goes in the lantern, and the lantern goes in the scrap pile never to be seen again.  Most folks use a AXA or BXA sized quick change tool post, and a tiny few use a 4-sided tool holder, but nobody uses lanterns, not even for nostalgia.


Don't say "NOBODY"!!!


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## Rooster (Apr 9, 2019)

Due too marketing, people think they need QCTP. Lantern tool post work great, just a little slower. The wedge is for height adjustment.


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## kd4gij (Apr 9, 2019)

pontiac428 said:


> The wedge goes in the lantern, and the lantern goes in the scrap pile never to be seen again.  Most folks use a AXA or BXA sized quick change tool post, and a tiny few use a 4-sided tool holder, but nobody uses lanterns, not even for nostalgia.





You may not but a lot of do use ours for specialty jobs.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 9, 2019)

I have been looking for a complete and decent lantern tool post at a great price to fit my 13x40 for years.  Still haven't found the right one for the right price.  They are definitely better for getting into tight areas than most other tool holding systems.  I know there are plenty of them hiding deep in drawers in shops everywhere.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 9, 2019)

I think I understand what you're saying.

For example, NOBODY uses one of these today, but you might want to write letters to send via courier post with stamps using one.






And some of you would invite friends over to watch the Super Bowl on this type of system:





Same folks like to lug around one of these while on vacation...





Get it?

Better solutions exist today, making these nostalgia items useless except for (wait for it) nostalgia.


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## dulltool17 (Apr 9, 2019)

opinions vary...


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> I have been looking for a complete and decent lantern tool post at a great price to fit my 13x40 for years.  Still haven't found the right one for the right price.  They are definitely better for getting into tight areas than most other tool holding systems.  I know there are plenty of them hiding deep in drawers in shops everywhere.


You have a lathe and mill, Bob; make one!  I never had one for my 19" Regal, several months ago, I got the bug and made one, only took me about 35 years to get around to it!


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## dan97526 (Apr 9, 2019)

Thanks.  So does the tool holder go in the lantern with or without the wedge?


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## RJSakowski (Apr 9, 2019)

One advantage of the lantern mount is that you don't have to grind top rake into the HHS tool bits.  The rake can be obtained using the existing surface of the bit. This is convenient when regrinding as you don't have to start a completely fresh cut.  You can adjust the top rake by adjusting the lantern.  OTOH, with the QCTP holders, the bit is presented horizontally so grinding rake in is required.

As previously stated, the lantern tool holders can get into some places that simply aren't possible with a QCTP system.  I don't have one for my G0602 but I still have my set for the Atlas/Craftsman 6x18.  It doesn't get used often but when I need it, I've got it.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 9, 2019)

dan97526 said:


> Thanks.  So does the tool holder go in the lantern with or without the wedge?


If by wedge you mean the half moon piece, you would always use it.


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## ThinWoodsman (Apr 9, 2019)

There was a great article in a 2016 issue of Machinist's workshop called "Getting the most out of your Lantern Toolpost". In it, the author shows how to make repeatable, tool-specific bases for the lantern. Quite impressive, though I am not going to go to that sort of effort when I have a BXA.

Anyways, the way mine works is the wedge more or less sits on the T-bolt for mounting to the compound. The wedge is actually a semi-circle, with the round side down. The tool rests on top (the flat side). The bolt through the top tightens down to clamp the tool to the wedge to the T-bolt. You loosen things up, put the tool in, adjust wedge so the tool is on-center as determined by your preferred method, and tighten things up. You can angle the lantern and leave the compound at 90 degrees, or anchor the lantern at 90 degrees and angle the compound; doesn't matter.

My lathe came with a few pieces of large tooling that just don't fit into QCTP holders, BXA or CA. They work great in the lantern.


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2019)

For some tools that one may use in a lathe with such a toolpost, such as openside holders intended for use with threading tools, carbide brazed on, radius and form tools, and other special tools a solid ring substituted for the radiused ring and "wedge" work well when the thickness is sized to bring a certain size tool on center, making a more rigid setup.  Also helpful is the ring with a flat radius milled into it, that the wedge fits closely in for radius and width, rather than the point bearing of the usual ring and wedge.  I saw this type in a school shop on a Pratt & Whitney toolroom lathe, and I made the toolpost for my 19" Regal in that style, using a stagger tooth milling cutter to cut the radius in the ring; the radiused slot is just slightly wider than the rocker wedge.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 9, 2019)

I'm curious to hear how those of you using or retaining lantern holders would compare them to an equivalent QCTP and holder system in regards to stiffness and finish quality. Is it a step forward?


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## Shootymacshootface (Apr 9, 2019)

I recently removed my 4 way tool holder to do some internal boring and threading with my lantern tool holder.
True story!!!


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## Shootymacshootface (Apr 9, 2019)

Also, that wedge is called a rocker and it always goes under the tool round side down. It's used to adjust the tool hight.


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2019)

As regards stiffness, I think there is little difference, in regards to convenience and productivity, the QCTP is the winner, hands down, One thing that I note with my A size QCTP on my 9" lathe, is that, especially with parting off, the tool overhangs the cross slide, tending to tip over and bind up unless shifted all the way to the right of the compound, which is not so convenient for the other tool holders used.  The cross slide gibs are tight and the slide is not worn, it still tends to tip and bind.


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## francist (Apr 9, 2019)

Here's an example of the slotted ring variation that John was referring to (at least as I understood he was referring to anyway).




My lathe came with this one as well as the rocker type, but I think these slotted ones take some of the finickiness away from changing holders. Once the bit is set for centre height in one of the three different depth slots, you can take it in and out without having to obtain centre again. You do lose the capability to adjust rake angle though, so that becomes limited to the particular holder or the grind on the bit itself. I have one set of holders that has a really shallow angle, so I used a largish "donut" to cheat the ring up a little more. It works fine.

I don't use the lantern holder too much any more, mostly a 4-way or 3-way, but I still keep it for the odd occasion when it's the only thing that will fit.  I do have a quick change as well but it's not my go to device, mostly because it's a small one and I don't find it as stable as the three or four way blocks. Just the way I'm used to, I guess.

-frank


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## vocatexas (Apr 9, 2019)

I bought a 14 1/2 inch South Bend last week from a machine shop that just closed. It still has the lantern tool post mounted on it and a crap-load of Armstrong tool holders. So yes, some people DO still use lantern style tool posts.


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2019)

francist said:


> Here's an example of the slotted ring variation that John was referring to (at least as I understood he was referring to anyway).
> 
> View attachment 292293
> 
> ...


No, that is another type, I have seen before, what I was referring to is a ring that has but one radiused seat for a rocker. unlike the common type that has a radios cut on the whole face of the ring.


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## T Bredehoft (Apr 9, 2019)

This question hasn't been addressed to my satisfaction
*Does the tool go in the  Lantern or  in the Armstrong  tool Holder?

The  tool *goes in the Armstrong tool holder, it  (Armstrong) *goes in the lantern* *on the rocker* so that the tool  can be adjusted to be on center of the  work.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 9, 2019)

T Bredehoft said:


> This question hasn't been addressed to my satisfaction
> *Does the tool go in the  Lantern or  in the Armstrong  tool Holder?
> 
> The  tool *goes in the Armstrong tool holder, it  (Armstrong) *goes in the lantern* *on the rocker* so that the tool  can be adjusted to be on center of the  work.


It can be set up either way, and other ways as well, Tom.  Lantern tool posts are quite versatile.


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## benmychree (Apr 9, 2019)

Yes, agreed, Bob


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## mikey (Apr 10, 2019)

I've not used a lantern tool post but have repeatedly seen folks say it allows you to do things that are either not possible or difficult to do with a QCTP. I've been using a QCTP for over 30 years and have yet to find an instance where I couldn't  do what I needed to do with it so please, tell me what I am missing. 

I mean specifically, what can a lantern tool post do that a good tool in a QCTP cannot do?


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## wlburton (Apr 10, 2019)

I think you guys (Tom, Bob, and John) have finally answered the original question!


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## toploader (Apr 10, 2019)

I have a cxa tool post on my 14” Sydney lathe.  I do use a lantern style tool post on my 14” Monarch model A.  I primarily use HSS with the Monarch and insert tooling with the Sydney.

Using a lantern tool post isn’t bad.


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## projectnut (Apr 10, 2019)

Here's a typical lantern post tool holder setup:








						South Bend Model 10k Lantern Tool Post With Williams 2010R Homecraft Holder for sale online | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for South Bend Model 10k Lantern Tool Post With Williams 2010R Homecraft Holder at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				




Unlike a quick change tool holder the height of the tool has to be set each time it's used.  The tools are also sharpened a bit differently in that they are  not parallel to the workpiece, rather the rear is lower with the point being on center.  My Seneca Falls machine came with a similar setup.  It doesn't get used often, but does come in handy from time to time. 

Just like the QCTP the lantern style uses a number of different profile tool holders.  Here's a link to some being sold on eBay:








						9 ASSORTED METAL LATHE LANTERN TOOL POST BIT HOLDERS ARMSTRONG JH WILLIAMS SET8  | eBay
					

1-1/4" TALL X 1/2 WIDE LATHE TOOL HOLDERS ARMSTRONG 1S 5/16 NO SETSCREW. ARMSTRONG 93-02 5/16. ARMSTRONG 1R 5/16 MODIFIED NO SETSCREW. WILLIAMS 21 STRAIGHT BLADE. WILLIAMS N-31-L BLADE ANGLE. WILLIAMS 1R AGRIPPA 5/16.



					www.ebay.com
				




While technically not identical they can also be used on a shaper.  I have used several of mine on my 7" AMMCO shaper.





There are a number of Seneca Falls catalogs available for download on the Vintage Machinery website:


			Seneca Falls Manufacturing Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org
		


Several of the catalogs have pictures of the tool post setup


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## fradish (Apr 10, 2019)

Mike,

One thing I have seen the lantern toolpost used for is as a ball turner.  Since the cutter is in line with the
center line of the lantern you can swing your compound to make curves.  With a QCTP since the cutter is 
offset from the pivot of the compound I think you will get more of an ellipse if you do this.

I have to say that I have not actually tried this myself.


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## mikey (Apr 10, 2019)

Thanks! It seems to me that arrangement would be a bit chatter-prone.


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## Superburban (Apr 10, 2019)

My favorite is the 4 way. But they vary so much that some are decent, others are a pain. Mine has the click stops that make switching from one to the other super simple. I also like the armstrong style tool holders, along with the HSS cutters that are easy to shape the way you want. I have the BXA QCTP, for my 12", bur would not spend the money to get them for my 6", just not enough benefit over the 2 way, to justify the cost.


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## Dabbler (Apr 10, 2019)

The lantern tool post is far easier and faster to use HSS tooling on.  

It is a little less rigid than a 4 way toolpost.  Results vary for Aloris style, but really good ones are very rigid, and some offshore ones are not rigid at all.

It reaches into grooves easier, but not necessarily better than other tool posts.  I have all types: 4 way, lantern, Aloris AXA and Aloris BXA tool posts.  they all work well.  For parting, I prefer the BXA.  For wood and aluminum, I mostly use the lantern.  I have my carbide setup so that every holder is already on centre on the 4 way, so using inserted tools the 4 way is king for me.  The Aloris is best for easier setting height on unusual or new tool holders.  It is also very convenient for parting.

Hey guys I'm not religious about these things.  Everyone's setup will vary, and there's no one-solution answer.

If the OP is planning on using HSS home-ground tools, then his lantern will work very well indeed.


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## mikey (Apr 10, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> The lantern tool post is far easier and faster to use HSS tooling on.



Just trying to understand. Why or how is it easier and faster to use a lantern tool post with HSS vs using that same HSS tool in a QCTP holder? It seems to me that the QCTP is more rigid, easier to adjust to center height, quicker to change tools and allows 360 degrees of rotational freedom. How does the lantern tool post do this better?


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## Dabbler (Apr 11, 2019)

OK.  this assumes that you are proficient in each discipline, not the time it takes to learn it.  This is a slightly touchy subject for some, so please put away the pitchforks...

First - some people call Aloris tool posts QCTP, but there at least 4 different types of QCTPs out there.  My comments pertain to Aloris only - I have virtually no personal experience with other types.

An Aloris holds the HSS bit parallel to the ground, without extraordinary measures to change that.  Your grind and angles cannot be changed easily, but if you get them right one bit can serve very well - in one type of material.  If you get them wrong, you go to the grinder and change them until they are right.  Sometimes diagnosing tricky heat treats of a usual material, or an unusual or unknown material can take loads of time to get a good cut or finish...  So you want to cut brass with your HSS tool ground for steel, and you'll gall the heck out of it.
-----
Now on the the lowly and sometimes maligned lantern (sometimes called American, or Anderson) toolpost.  you do a grind with 5 degrees in each direction - normal for mild steels.  If you get a bad finish, you adjust the angle of the cutter until you see a better result, which takes seconds.  this is your indicator that you need a shallower or steeper cut angle,  or whatever.  you can adjust your grind for optimal results and go for it, again adjusting this new tool in subtle ways to achieve your goals.

BONUS:  I have two tools for cutting wood in my lathe.  they look similar, but by adjusting the angle of the tools I can use my softwood bit to accommodate differences in the wood grain, texture or moisture content.  If that doesn't work well, I use the stteper cutting angle tool (hardwood tool) and adjust again.  I get really good results because of this angle adjust ability.

Caveat:  Unless you have a honking big lantern toolpost, don't bother taking a really big chip with it.  It just isn't meant for those pressures.


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## mikey (Apr 11, 2019)

I don't own a lantern tool post so I am speaking from ignorance. I do own a Sherline rocker tool post and understand exactly how to use that. It is similar in principle and use to a lantern post, although not nearly as versatile since it only uses the post and not arms with different angles on them. 

I can see how the rocker feature allows you to get the tool tip on center and this would alter the rake angles but I don't see how you can alter rake angles independently, without altering center height. I know that there are accessory arms that hold the tool at different lateral angles and some that allow you to alter lead angle so maybe that is what you're referring to.

My Square Tool will cut almost anything, although it won't do that well in hardened steels. It will cut aluminum, brass, plastics, mild steels, medium carbon tool steels and stainless and it will do it with a single tool geometry. Perhaps if I did not have this tool then I might see the value of a tool post that can change tool angles, I dunno'. 

With all of this said, I think I will be content with my Aloris post. Maybe one day I'll get to use a lantern post and come to my senses on my own.


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## Dabbler (Apr 11, 2019)

the armstrong  tool holders telescope in and out.  This helps to make centre height adjustments after changing rake angle. Hard to explain even in pictures, but only 20 seconds to show in person.


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## Superburban (Apr 11, 2019)

You can also place shims under the tool holder, or better yet, You grind the bits for the tool holder, and lathe it will be used on.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 11, 2019)

The two posts above, combined, explain how it is easy and quick to change tool angles with a lantern tool post arrangement.  The Armstrong style tool holders are relatively massive and rigid while also narrow in width, and tool bits are typically installed in them with very little stick out, often the ground tool angles are partially recessed into the holder.  The lantern post is the weakest link WRT rigidity (though certain models are better than others.)  With the tool holder also installed in the lantern post for minimum stick out, you have a small, compact, and reasonably rigid setup that can get into tight places.  By sliding the tool holder out farther, it is even better at getting into tight places, at the expense of less rigidity with more stick out.  That system of lathe tool holding was ubiquitous for many decades, without much serious competition from other lathe tool holding systems.  It worked well for what they were doing, and what they were doing then was often more similar to what is done in hobby shops today than in production shops today.  Can you get along without one?  Yes!  Is having lantern tooling for occasional use an asset in your shop?  Sure, but there is no pressing need to rush out and buy them ASAP...


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## MattM (Jun 22, 2022)

I have this old blackpowder rifle.  Should I scrap it?


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## benmychree (Jun 22, 2022)

MattM said:


> I have this old blackpowder rifle.  Should I scrap it?


If it is accurate, keep it! Same for toolposts; as others have said, sometimes the fancy QCTP is too bulky to get access in tight places, an example would be in turning crankshafts.


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## dbb-the-bruce (Jun 27, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> BONUS: I have two tools for cutting wood in my lathe. they look similar, but by adjusting the angle of the tools I can use my softwood bit to accommodate differences in the wood grain, texture or moisture content. If that doesn't work well, I use the stteper cutting angle tool (hardwood tool) and adjust again. I get really good results because of this angle adjust ability.


Late to this thread and don't have much to add  - ^^ This ^^

My experience is probably a little unusual, I purchased a South Bend 9A primarily to turn wooden parts. I was familiar enough with turning tools that grinding HSS bits wasn't a big leap. Wood can be very fussy and you get dramatic differences in cut/finish with small adjustments to the tool approach. There is no way I would have been able to make small tool approach changes with anything but a lantern style holder. (what the lathe came with).

I started doing a little bit of metal work and I'm now almost exclusively working with metal (nothing exotic - common steels, brass and some stainless). I found that it is way more convenient to have dedicated bits setup on Aloris QCTP. I rarely use the lantern. However as stated in this thread, the QCTP and holders often make it hard to reach into tight spots and work with small parts. I'm going to reconsider using the lantern next time I'm struggling reach a cut.

I have yet to use carbide - the lathe came with some brazed carbide tools, I don't have any insert holders. I've tried the brazed carbide a few times with mediocre results. I may eventually run into something that HSS just can't handle, but I doubt it.

The lantern is a "little" less solid than the Aloris, but there are lot of things that contribute to the rigidity and for my case - I'm running an SB 9A - it's a toolroom lathe not a beast.


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## Dabbler (Jun 27, 2022)

@dbb-the-bruce I used a SB 9A  off an on for many years, and it is a very capable light lathe.  I find that on smaller lathes using sharp HSS tooling is usually superior to carbide tools...  with the exception of ground parting tools - the ones ground for aluminum.  I use them is steel also, (of course the edge life is shortened).

I have 'big boy' lathes now, but still dive into the 'HSS stash' often to make form tools, and do specialized turning, such as wood.


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## gard (Aug 6, 2022)

I have been using a lantern post for about 40 years because that is what the old lathe came with, it works and quick change setups are expensive, partly because you need a bunch of tool holders to get best benefit from them.  I have also used quick change tools at work and agree it is faster to change tools with them. I am currently rebuilding a south bend 10L and reworked the lantern, using blueing to get contact near the OD of the 1/2 moon shaped "wedge" and concave base. Also contact at the OD of the base to the compound top. This will improve rigidity. Someday I will probably buy quick change holders for my old lathes but it always seems like there is something else a little higher on the list.  Boring head for mil, DRO, firearm, bigger chainsaw etc etc. The machine work is mostly a hobby, if I was going for maximum production I would have newer lathes with quick change tooling.


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## Dabbler (Aug 6, 2022)

gard said:


> quick change setups are expensive, partly because you need a bunch of tool holders


Although that is true for any quick change setup, you are right, and good tool holders for a lantern are in sort(er) supply.

However I sold almost all of my lantern tool holders except for a minimal set of Armstrong forged ones.  (the last ones were not forged BTW - you can tell on the ends where they poorly cleaned up the casting lines - the very lathe ones were cast steel)

So I now have a minimal set and savour every tool change.  Hey I pay to do this hobby so I'll relish every minute of it!


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## mickri (Aug 6, 2022)

I use my lantern occasionally to reach into tight spots.  Winky's Workshop has several videos about making a more modern lantern with a threaded adjuster to set the height of the tool bit.

The expense of all of the toolholders for your typical QCTP was too much for me too.  So I made a Norman style QCTP.  For less than $100 I bought enough steel to make 20 tool holders.   I have made 12 so far.


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## Dabbler (Aug 6, 2022)

@mickri I currently own and use lantern, 4-way, AXA and BXA Aloris, and a big Dixon.   80% of my work is on a 4-way.  It reads weird, but I have 3 lathes over 12".  I've experimented with Aloris (I have over 35 holders for the AXA and BXA combined.  I'll be transitioning away from Aloris, so someone is eventually going to get a great deal.


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## mickri (Aug 6, 2022)

I have a 4 way also.  It was what I used the most before I made my Norman QCTP.  I discovered the Norman QCTP by accident.  I was researching how to make a 4 way that could be adjusted to set the height of the tool bits at centerline when I came across a video describing how to make a Norman QCTP.  One of the projects on my to do list is to make a 4 way toolholder for my Norman QCTP.  I have just about got it figured out.


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## JPMacG (Aug 6, 2022)

I use an Aloris clone QCTP.  I have my latern neatly stored in a cigar box patiently waiting for the day when I need it.  It has been in the cigar box for several years.


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