# Building a Shop



## ddickey (May 9, 2020)

Transferred jobs so I'm selling and thunk I'll build. The company that builds metal buildings in the area quoted a price that included 4" fiber reinforced concrete.
Sounds light to me. Will be a normal machine shop with medium sized machines. Any opinions on that?


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## benmychree (May 9, 2020)

Shops have been built in the dim past with wood floors, and they did acceptable work.


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## Chipper5783 (May 9, 2020)

It will likely be fine. I had a 6" slab poured for mine. In truth it turned out to be 5" (though I likely paid for 6").  I have 3 machines that are btw 2500-3000 pounds.  I have one machine that is 8000 pounds.  All the machines are on some sort of levelling pads - the weight is not spread out across the whole base.  I have had no issues with the machines moving (one lathe is bolted down, I have not found any improvement compared to the first 30 years when it was not bolted down). I have not had any issues with damaging the floor.

Make sure you ask for good compaction under the fooling and the slab. Pay a little extra and have a tinted grey hardener added when they are finishing the slab - then the scratches don't show and you never have to paint it.  Adding some chop / fibre is a good idea and is very cheap.  I had chop added to mine, it is supposed to add some crack resistance (you still have to have rebar).  The finer will effect the quality of the surface finish slightly.

Let us know how you make out.


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## ddickey (May 9, 2020)

What do you mean you still have to have rebar?


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## Tim9 (May 9, 2020)

I think a lot has to do with the type of ground you have. If you live somewhere with good bedrock a couple feet down then that’s quite different than the ground like around here where we have no bedrock at all. It’s all basically swamp here. I’d check with some reputable concrete contractors or engineers. Heck....sometimes in our area one couldn’t even put a slab without pilings and chain walls around the outer edges. Concrete is really one of those thing in which one size doesn’t fit all.


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## mikey (May 9, 2020)

Out here, you need a building permit to pour a slab over 120 SF. That means plans, a structural engineer's stamp and a building inspector's site visit before the pour. The structural engineer should make sure that the slab will suit its intended purpose so it's a good idea to find a good one and work with him to make sure the slab is sound. Then find a good concrete guy who knows what he's doing because once the slab is poured, what you have is what you have.


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## matthewsx (May 10, 2020)

Make sure it will do what you need and if you plan on having machines anywhere in the middle of the shop go ahead and put conduit to where you'll be placing them. Much nicer than running cables from the ceiling or across the floor.

You don't have to make it all one thickness either I believe, maybe just beef up the areas where you plan on putting machines. But maybe that's a false economy. Chances are the contractor works with a sub for concrete, ask if you can talk with them about your needs.

John


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## Martin W (May 10, 2020)

IMHO 4” of 30mpa concrete with fibre reinforced will be just fine. Make sure the base is well compacted with a good base of Stone. Make sure it’s saw cut no larger than 15x15. You could park a Cat D6 on it. Concrete is expensive, make sure you have your grades right so you don’t have 4” in some spots 5” in others and 3” in others.
i poured my floor in my shop 29 years ago. 4” 30 mpa with fibre. As good today as when it was poured.i don’t park a D6 on it but I do park a 850 Case dozer loader on it That weighs 17,000 pounds.
Cheers
Martin


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## Alcap (May 10, 2020)

Will you be living in a cold climate and this being a heated shop ?   If so you might want to install tubing for radiant floor heat even though you might not get it finished for a while at least it will be there when needed . I would think you would need a thicker floor then 4"


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## ddickey (May 10, 2020)

Yes in MN. Was thinking in floor heat would be very nice and probably cheap to heat.


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## Cadillac (May 10, 2020)

ddickey said:


> Yes in MN. Was thinking in floor heat would be very nice and probably cheap to heat.



By far the best way you will not regret


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## FOMOGO (May 10, 2020)

In floor heat is not particularly cheap to run. It is nice to have warm floors, but the big downside is that you have to keep it pretty much where you want it temp wise all the time, as it can take days to bring a large space up to temp. It is also expensive to install. If you do go that route, or any other for that matter, don't skimp on insulation. It will save you many times it's initial cost over time. R-19 walls and R38 minimum ceilings. Mike


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## matthewsx (May 10, 2020)

I built a 40x60 shop in Northern Michigan. In floor heat wasn't an option but I would hesitate to do so even if it was. As you know living in Minnesota anything with water in it can be ruined pretty quickly when an unexpected freeze comes. I guess hydronic heating systems can run on anti-freeze but most are done with a hot water boiler system like we have in our home. Those boilers aren't cheap and can be finicky if not installed correctly.

I'd want to be able to walk away from a shop building when the winter gets too cold but obviously any plumbing would need to be blown out and winterized before I could leave. Also having to keep the heat on while I'm sleeping in the house sounds expensive. I had a natural gas fired infrared tube heater in my shop and it would bring the temp up to where I could work in half an hour from 20 deg f. Also warmed up everything in the shop so very comfortable as well as economical.

As pointed out already insulation is key in any extreme climate, if it was me I'd skip the in-floor heat in favor of AC, even if just for a portion of the shop. Also lots of guys like wood heat for shops since it's nearly free when you own the trees already....

John


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## ddickey (May 10, 2020)

Oh I'm going to have AC for sure. I've had AC now for a couple years in my shop/garage. Besides keeping it cool I have zero corrosion issues.


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## Liljoebrshooter (May 10, 2020)

I live in Central Michigan and have a pole barn style building that I installed radiant floor heat in.  The biggest cost is the insulation under the concrete slab.  The tubing for my shop was under $500 for 1250 ft.  The 2in ridgid foam was almost $1500. That was in 2011 prices also.  I usa a 40 gallon LP gas hot water heater to heat it with. I  used about 300 gallons of propane this year to keep it at about 58 degrees all winter.
I was using a propane space heater before that and hated it. It was never warm enough and the fumes were terrible. I can now use my shop anytime I want even after coming home from work for just 20 minutes or so.
It all depends on your budget.

Joe


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## ddickey (May 10, 2020)

Right, And I think it is cheaper than it actually is. I was told $30-40 sqft. 
Originally was going to have a shouse built but I've abandoned that idea.


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## ddickey (May 10, 2020)

Any opinions on stick built shops as opposed to metal pole type shop?


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## Liljoebrshooter (May 10, 2020)

I think it depends on the height of it.  Also around here you would need a foundation down 4 ft for a stick built.  That's the appeal of post frame style,  bore some holes and put posts in. 
Joe


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## matthewsx (May 10, 2020)

Pole barn, unless it's pretty small but then whats the point


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## Martin W (May 10, 2020)

Stick buildings will cost you more initially with the extra concrete for the foundation . More lumber also. Pole type buildings are by far cheaper to build. They both have their places. Depends on your budget? I have both kinds here at my place and are happy with each one.
On my pole I notched all my 2x12 headers into the 8x8 posts. Installed hurricane straps to the trusses. 2x6 diagonal bracing notched into the corners. 
My other shop I poured a foundation wall with a 6’-6” concrete block wall with 2x6 studs on top with trusses. 
Cheers
Martin


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## Martin W (May 10, 2020)

In floor heat is not cheap to run. It’s really really nice though! Unless you use glycol you will need to heat all winter. And that’s the point with in floor heat it needs to o be on and constant because it takes a long time to warm up. I have propane tube heaters in my shops and I like them. Keeps everything warm. I also have a small wood stove in my machine shop to save gas.
I have infloor heat in my house and garage I have a wood boiler so it doesn’t really cost me anything but labour. We like the warm floors in the breezeway and garage.
Cheers
Martin


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## Eddyde (May 10, 2020)

With any concrete floor, the key is proper preparation of the ground below. All vegetation grass & roots etc. removed, properly compacted gravel ballast, and a good vapor barrier if needed. If all that is done correctly, you should be fine with 4" of fiber.


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## finsruskw (May 10, 2020)

I poured the floor in my shop back in the 80's and placed 2" foam under the portion that was going to be heated in the fall/winter.
It has done a fine job and IMHO really helps.
Did the same for the floor in the basement of the house that I built in 1980


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## ddickey (May 16, 2020)

I got an estimate for a 1000 sqft stick built shop with a 10' door so 12' ceiling. also infloor heat.  No electrical as I can do that myself.
$55,000.


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## finsruskw (May 16, 2020)

Mine is a 36x54 Wickes pole shed.'
$7700 in 1977 w/no floor or perimeter footing.
Did all that my self and cemented the poles in and tied them to the footing.
The ground was mostly soft limestone.
And, yes, it's not big enough!! 

Good luck w/your project!


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## whitmore (May 16, 2020)

ddickey said:


> Transferred jobs so I'm selling and thunk I'll build. The company that builds metal buildings in the area quoted a price that included 4" fiber reinforced concrete.
> Sounds light to me. Will be a normal machine shop with medium sized machines. Any opinions on that?


Depends on geology; trust a local to know the requirements.   
Dry concrete 'dusts' with age, and the dust is corrosive and at least slightly abrasive, so you DO want to paint before putting tools
in contact with it.   If you spill lubricants, the paint will keep 'em from soaking in; a few bags of cat litter will help
clean up after.


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## matthewsx (May 16, 2020)

I'd talk with a realtor and see if something that already has a shop is available. You can also drive around the neighborhood you're thinking of moving to and see if anything strikes your fancy. More than one real estate deal has been done by just asking the owner if they want to sell.

John


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## Dabbler (May 16, 2020)

@ddickey If you do in-floor heating you need structural foam under your concrete pad.  This is foam that won't compress under load, and is rated in xxx hyndred lbs/sq ft.  My mill weighs 3800 lbs and has a 2' X 3' footprint.  the concrete averages the weight over a larger area, so use 4000 lbs over 15 sq ft for about 267 lbs per sq ft, so I'd have to use a 300lbs/sq ft product.

If you don't all your heat goes into the ground.


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## Mitch Alsup (May 16, 2020)

FOMOGO said:


> In floor heat is not particularly cheap to run. It is nice to have warm floors, but the big downside is that you have to keep it pretty much where you want it temp wise all the time, as it can take days to bring a large space up to temp. It is also expensive to install. If you do go that route, or any other for that matter, don't skimp on insulation. It will save you many times it's initial cost over time. R-19 walls and R38 minimum ceilings. Mike



In colder climates, one should also consider insulation between the floor and the ground it stands on.


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## ddickey (Jul 1, 2020)

Got an estimate today for a Cleary Building. Does not include excavation/leveling. 1200Sqft, 12' walls, insulated, in floor heat but I don't think it included the boiler $66,000. Not going to be possible at that price. Getting some estimates hopefully more reasonable or maybe I'm just delusional about prices.


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## NCjeeper (Jul 1, 2020)

Materials and labor are expensive right now. By the time my shop is done it will probably be twice as much as what I estimated.


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## pontiac428 (Jul 1, 2020)

I came in about 25% over budget on mine (2019-2020).


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## matthewsx (Jul 2, 2020)

Back in 2011 we built a 2400Sqft commercial pole barn for ~$80k. Actually traded the dirt on our site for excavating work. Still think buying might be cheaper than building.

John


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## ddickey (Jul 2, 2020)

That's not an option as I'm building a home on the site. New homes are barely more than existing homes up here. plus I get 3 acres now and all new appliances and whatnot. 
I was originally thinking about building a shouse and at that time the builder said for teh shop portion it would be around $30-$40 sqft. I can live with that.


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## 7milesup (Jul 2, 2020)

Ddickey.....
I built a new house and new shop last year.  I was the General Contractor for all of it, which was way more work than I originally anticipated.

My shop is 36x36.  4" floating slab on a very nice sand base (lift).  16" wide haunches that go down to 12" at the perimeter.  Concrete cost was $7452 which is $5.75/ft.  The guy that did my concrete work bought my old house so he gave me a deal.  Figure $7/sq ft.
Studs $900.  Roof Sheathing $382.  Wall Sheathing $550.  Shingles $1914.  Trusses $2300.   Siding, which was LP SmartSide was $4750.  Overhead door $1300 (10x10 I think).  Windows (6 of them from Menards) $1962.  Foam for the floor $1100.  $800 for steel for the ceiling. Labor to frame and roof it was $6000 if I remember correctly.
What don't I have in there... insulation for walls and ceiling, which we did ourselves.  Wiring, again we did it ourselves.  I did 5/8" sanded plywood finished with 2 coats of lacquer for the walls.  That way I can hang cabinets and what not anywhere I want without finding a stud.  You can occasionally find BCX plywood at menards in their outdoor yard that is sanded.  That is what happened to me and I just bought the whole skid and returned what I did not use.  It was $15 per sheet.   A little more expensive than sheetrock but also much more useful.  I have about 40" or so of galvanized wainscoting on the lower portion of the interior walls.
I did put hyrdronic heat in the floor.  If you are building a new shop, do it.  At least put the tubes in.   They are not that hard to do but you MUST put down foam below the concrete (it is actually code).  I put the tubes in but have not hooked up a heat source yet.  Since I have 22 acres here of all woods, I needed something quick so threw in a wood stove last fall.  I do woodworking too so need a place to put my mistakes scraps. 
Others have mentioned about freezing up in the winter.  That is nonsense.  Just like your car, a mixture of water and a special anti-freeze is used in hydronic systems.  You want that anyhow for some lubricity for the pumps.  Never heard of running straight water.  This is my second house with in floor heat and I would never build up here and not put it in.  I would use a specific boiler for it.  I do know that some guys use tank type water heaters, etc but they are not really made for that.  I have been considering a Noritz for my shop.  I have a Navien combi unit in my current house but those are expensive.
So, I have somewhere in the ballpark of +$30k in my shop but completely finished the interior, wired it and sided it myself.


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## ddickey (Nov 8, 2020)

I stopped counting the dollars and just want it done. It's incredible how the money just flows away. lol
I probably would not use the same guy if I ever build another shop. He did a good job but some of the things he did is not how I would've done it. For example he ran the ceiling tin from side to side rather than back to front. So I got a $1000 bill for 40 x 96" 2 x 4's so he could brace between the truss' then he could screw in the tin. All the other builds I see on the tube go from back to front, 8' on center. W/a 16' long piece you screw in ends and the middle. The outside tin is screwed onto the posts. Most builds I see have wall girts that the tin screws into. That way you have an area to put insulation behind the post. Insulation starts tomorrow then hopefully concrete by Friday.

Got my gas line in and final inspection on that is this week as well as the drain to the septic tank. Electrical a little later. 
I abandoned my idea to put a feed through load center on the outside of the house to feed the house and shop panel. Drilled a hole in the wall today and am just going to feed the shop off of my main panel in the house.


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## NCjeeper (Nov 8, 2020)

ddickey said:


> I stopped counting the dollars and just want it done. It's incredible how the money just flows away. lol


I can relate.


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## ArmyDoc (Nov 9, 2020)

ddickey said:


> I stopped counting the dollars and just want it done...





NCjeeper said:


> I can relate.



Just starting out on this path.  Took quite some time to nail down size/cost etc. and unfortunately only then asked when they could build.  Turns out not till April.  Frustrating, but may ultimately be for the best.  Not the best idea to do a concrete pour in winter, though if they started now or in the next few weeks it would still be warm enough.  Will let you guys know how it goes.


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## pontiac428 (Nov 9, 2020)

No doubt that money's got to be thrown around more and faster these days.  The first $90k was easy; gave it to the outfit that did the building, and that was what I got.  The next $40k is what hurt, it was the anticipated and unanticipated tally of stuff that was necessary to finish the job.  I'm still not done making trips to the hardware store for this or that detail to get "done".


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## NC Rick (Nov 9, 2020)

My 26x40 foot shop is made with a 4" fiber concrete floor which was put in when we built in 1993.  It's been fine but my most heavy machines are my Bridgeport series 1 and a 15x60 gear head lathe (light one at about 3k pounds).  While I don't "need" it, I wish I had a sub foundation for the lathe.  I would not have anticipated the size not the location for the lathe those many years back...


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