# Is This a SB Heavy 10?



## Skowinski (Jul 30, 2018)

https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/tls/d/south-bend-metal-lathe/6652655803.html

Doesn't seem to look exactly like any heavy 10's I've seen... and doesn't look like any 9A's I've seen either.


----------



## markba633csi (Jul 30, 2018)

I think it's what's called a "light ten" -? or 10R


----------



## woodtickgreg (Jul 30, 2018)

Looks Like a 10 k, smaller spindle bore.


----------



## Dave Paine (Jul 30, 2018)

The ad does not state the model.   Looks like a 10K to me, also called a Light 10.

Lathes.UK page on SB Light 10


----------



## brino (Jul 30, 2018)

....so what's a "heavy nine"?

thanks,
-brino


----------



## bss1 (Jul 30, 2018)

Just based upon the look of the tail stock, it looks like a cabinet mounted 9a to me. The 10K’s have a different tailstock.


----------



## Skowinski (Jul 30, 2018)

Thanks guys, it does look like what I'm seeing when I search for "South Bend Lathe 10k".

edit: that tailstock does look like it was thrown on there, wrong color to begin with...


----------



## Cooter Brown (Jul 30, 2018)

Yup that is a 10K

This is a picture of one of my heavy 10s. The Headstock is very different.


----------



## derf (Jul 30, 2018)

Looks like a 9A under drive. The apron on the 10"s were different.


----------



## kopeck (Jul 30, 2018)

derf said:


> Looks like a 9A under drive. The apron on the 10"s were different.



It has the "fast change" reverse tumbler so it's a light 10.

Why 9s didn't come with that "feature" is beyond me, the bolt is annoying.  Heck my 6" Craftsman has it.

K


----------



## derf (Jul 30, 2018)

Some of the later 9A's came with the fast change tumbler.


----------



## bss1 (Jul 30, 2018)

I don’t know guys. It’s not a 10k unless it has the wrong tailstock, not just the color it the shape. They are different between the 9 and the 10K. It looks like a later model 9a cabinet model with the more desirable large dials. 

Here is a pic of my old 10K. Note the different tail stock.


----------



## derf (Jul 30, 2018)

It sure looked like a 9" tailstock to me....


----------



## kopeck (Jul 30, 2018)

I retract my previous guess and defer to the last two posters. ;-)

I really like that under drive setup.

K


----------



## Skowinski (Jul 30, 2018)

LOL now I'm confused... I've never seen a 9A with a headstock that looks like this one for sale.  Maybe I've only seen older 9A's.  

So, the later 9A and the 10k had a headstock that looks similar?  

I noticed the lathe and cabinet seem to be different colors too - did they come that way, or is this thing some sort of hybrid beast?


----------



## kopeck (Jul 30, 2018)

The under drive 9's (I think they called them "Floor Lathes") head stocks look like a 10k.  It's kind of odd how SB had so many variations in such a small segment.

K


----------



## Lordbeezer (Jul 30, 2018)

Contact the seller and ask for info on brass tag on gearbox..then you'll know for sure..


----------



## Cooter Brown (Jul 30, 2018)

bss1 said:


> I don’t know guys. It’s not a 10k unless it has the wrong tailstock, not just the color it the shape. They are different between the 9 and the 10K. It looks like a later model 9a cabinet model with the more desirable large dials.
> 
> Here is a pic of my old 10K. Note the different tail stock.
> 
> ...




My heavy 10's tailstock is very different from my friends heavy 10's tailstock...... Your 10k look like a later model, the one in the ad probably has a serial number without letters....  The drip tray is cast on that machine yours is sheet metal.... Southbend made a ton of different parts for their machines and every year looked a little bit different, but they all fit each other almost perfectly!


----------



## Skowinski (Jul 30, 2018)

Well, thanks for all the information!  I called, asked a bunch of questions, the guy didn't really seem to know exactly what he had.  Got him to send some pictures (he seemed to have trouble getting good focus... maybe a reason for that?).  The condition of the ways near the headstock has turned me off to pursuing this one.  Looks like chucks, work pieces, etc have been dropped on them, more than once or twice - tops of the Vs look dented up.


----------



## derf (Jul 31, 2018)

Judging by the width of the bed, it's a 9".


----------



## kopeck (Jul 31, 2018)

The ways don't look all that bad but like you said the picture isn't great (pretty normal for CL to be honest).  I find dirty oil from the wiper tends to leave marks that look like wear but are not really.  It should have hard bed so you have that working for you.

I bought a much better tooled 9A for $1000.  It is a lot older though but it's not worn to much.

What I ended up doing is realizing that none of these are going to be prefect but that also means you shouldn't buy one your not comfortable with.  Wear is OK, worn out isn't.

K


----------



## bss1 (Jul 31, 2018)

The bed doesn’t look that bad to me either. If it’s close to you it’s worth going by and taking a look. The cabinet mount with large dials are the most desirable of the 9” south bend lathes. It’s hard to find them unless you are in the northeast or something. 

Look for a wear ridge on the ways near the headstock. That will be more of an indicator of wear than the nicks. Also turn the dials and see how much back lash is in the screws. Don’t expect a 40 to 60 year old machine tool to look like new. 

It’s definitely a 9” machine. You can go to the picture section on Practical machinists forum and see documented pics of a lot of them just the same. If you are looking for a 10” machine this is not the one. However having owned both a 9” And a 10K there is not much difference between the two. A heavy 10 is a noticeable step up. 

Good luck!


----------



## Skowinski (Jul 31, 2018)

Thanks again everyone for all the comments and advice!  

It's about a hour and a half drive away.  If it were here in Vegas I'd go look for sure.  A 9A like this would actually be just fine for me, and I really do like the cabinet undermount drive and dials.  

Anything would be a BIG step up from the little Atlas MK2 6x18 I've been learning on and using.  I got a really good deal on it, and it's in really good condition.  But, the 3rd project was just a bit more than it can easily work with, LOL!


----------



## kopeck (Jul 31, 2018)

Sounds like your on the same path as I am.

The various colors that thing has going on is really the only red flag for me.  I'm guessing the tail stock was just replaced, not sure why the cabinet is green but things happen over the years.  I also wonder where the switch went.

That being said I would prefer that setup (under drive) over what I have.  I also like that the head stock has a guard, the open head stock on my 9A bothers me a little bit simply because I have young kids.

I drove  1 1/2 hours for mine.   I think I paid a good/fair price for my location.  I don't know if that holds true in your location.  What I'm saying is I don't think the price is terrible as long as it's not beat up.

K


----------



## SCLead (Jul 31, 2018)

markba633csi said:


> I think it's what's called a "light ten" -? or 10R



10R's are Heavy 10's. 10K's are the "light ten."

10R and 10L are both heavies, but the 10R has a smaller spindle bore of 1", compared to the 10L's 1-3/8".

When _most_ people talk about a "heavy 10," they're referring to the large spindle 10L, but there are in fact two "heavy 10's."

If I'm not mistaken, the spindles are the only difference between the R and L, and are interchangeable.


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 1, 2018)

Thanks again for the education on these SB lathes.  In the end I've decided to pass on the one I was looking at, and another one about 3 hours away (LA area) as the guy couldn't seem to be bothered to send me some pictures beyond the one crappy one on CL, so that wasn't a good start.  I'm going to be retiring and in about a year will be moving to a new place.  Perhaps better to not have to move a heavy lathe twice in a year - I'll wait.

Unless... I just happen to run across something too good to turn down.


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 5, 2018)

Well, as usual I seem to have spoken too soon.  

On a whim I called the guy up today, he still had it, so I took the drive out since I had a free afternoon.  It's dirty and could use painting, but it's tight and functional, everything works, no damage or significant wear on any gear teeth.  Only about 0.001" runout on a piston wrist pin (new, should be straight!) in the 3 jaw chuck.  Had a 4 jaw chuck, face plates, dogs, steady rest, lots of HSS tools.  Ways have some dings on tops of the V's but little very little wear along where the carriage rides, and the carriage moves smoothly the entire travel distance with no binding towards the tailstock.  Talked him down a bit on the price, gave him a deposit, and will be headed back in a few days to pick it up!


----------



## kopeck (Aug 5, 2018)

Congrats!

Welcome to the SB 9 club.

K


----------



## brino (Aug 5, 2018)

Skowinski said:


> gave him a deposit, and will be headed back in a few days to pick it up!



Congratulations!
I hope to see some more pictures soon......
-brino


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 5, 2018)

Here's the catalog number on the gearbox plate: CL370ZD
And the serial number from the ways near the tailstock: 22994NKR7

From what I can gather the catalog number indicates a threaded spindle (yep), 10k underdrive (partly yep, but 10?), 3.5 foot bed (yep).

The tailstock number indicates a 9" model, QCGB, friction feed apron, underdrive cabinet with a regular spindle bore and swing.  I never actually measured the swing while looking at it, as I was convinced from this thread it's a 9" model.

Early 1950's model I think.


----------



## kopeck (Aug 5, 2018)

A lot of 9 and 10K parts interchange.

You might just have a 10K QCGB on a 9" lathe.  It does look like your machine is a little "put together" just judging by the colors.

Do you have a hardened bed?  

K


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 5, 2018)

kopeck said:


> A lot of 9 and 10K parts interchange.
> 
> You might just have a 10K QCGB on a 9" lathe.  It does look like your machine is a little "put together" just judging by the colors.
> 
> Do you have a hardened bed?



Yeah, the more I looked into it the more I saw that the 10k and 9 share a LOT of parts.  Most parts?  It seems they are more alike than they are different.

Not sure how to ID a hardened bed...


----------



## kopeck (Aug 5, 2018)

Yeah the 10K and the 9 share a ton of parts, like you said more than not.

Near the headstock, were there's zero wear, can you see scraping marks on the ways or is it just plain/smooth?  If it's the latter, you probably have a hardened bed.

I'm no expert but I think you have a 9.

K


----------



## bss1 (Aug 6, 2018)

The tailstock is usually how you can identify the difference between a 9A and a 10K. The other parts appear the same in pictures. That’s where my ID went wrong. If it is a 10” Lathe with a 9” tailstock sitting on it, that won’t line up properly with the spindle. Many of the parts are interchangeable, but I can’t remember to what extent.  I guess what I’m trying to say is many parts are may be interchangeable Except for the headstock and tailstock. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 6, 2018)

Despite spending over and hour inspecting the machine, including turning a piece of aluminum - thought I'd checked everything - I never put a couple of centers in the head and tailstock and slid them together to verify they line up.... was convinced it was a 9 when I went to look I guess.  Maybe I'll check and verify that when I pick it up Wednesday.

Just noticed in the pics I have that the info plate on the QCGB is held on by 4 small philips head screws.  That's not the way they came from the SB factory is it?  Maybe someone put this info plate from a 10k that they got somewhere on a 9, who knows? 

I don't think I'll worry about it too much.  This is going to be a multi-year project, restoring this thing, retiring in 5 months here and will have lots of time.  Looks like I've got a good, functional machine to start with.  It's going to be fun!


----------



## Dave Paine (Aug 6, 2018)

My SB Heavy 10 has a tag on the tailstock showing the bed was flame hardened.   I think this was an option when ordering.


----------



## kopeck (Aug 6, 2018)

I think after a some date in the ealry 60s all of them were hardened and they dropped the plate.

I'm 99% sure my plate is riveted on.  If all the parts match I wouldn't loose much sleep over it.  Paint can do wonders. ;-)

I think 9A or 10K you did just fine.

K


----------



## SCLead (Aug 6, 2018)

Another option to check for flame hardened ways is to look between the rear V-ways on the far right end. If there's a stamping that reads "DDB200RG," it's flame hardened. Though, to be fair, I only know for certain that this applies to 10L's. 

Easiest thing is look at the ways near the headstock as somebody already mentioned, or at the extreme right end of the bed. If there's no visual sign of flaking/scraping, pretty good odds it's hardened.


----------



## DoogieB (Aug 6, 2018)

On the small lathes, it's a soft bed or it would have an "X" as the 3rd letter on the bed: ie 22944NKX.  You have a 9" toolroom lathe on a factory cabinet.  If you look at the SB catalogs from that era you can find something similar.  From the factory, the tag on the QCGB is fastened with drive pins.

My '74 10K is a KKX.  South Bend was very, very slow to supply hardened beds.  On my lathe it was an expensive $400 option, which is probably why they are so rare on the smaller lathes.


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 6, 2018)

Thanks guys - I'll have a more detailed look at this thing when I get it home, provided everything goes through on the purchase as planned.  I've had some odd things happen with Craigslist buys, like the guy selling it to someone else for a higher price before you can go back and get it (motorcycle), and then saying "here's your deposit back, I sold it yesterday".

Any advice on moving it?  I was thinking of separating the lathe from the cabinet, and transporting them like that.  But, I've seen where some heavy straps and an engine lift are used to pick the entire thing up, with the straps running under the bed of the lathe.  I think I'm going to get a low bed U-haul trailer.  My truck bed is like 3-4 feet up and it has a slippery plastic bed liner....


----------



## DoogieB (Aug 6, 2018)

On mine, the previous owner loaded it on the back of my old truck with forks under the bed using his tractor.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/got-my-first-lathe-a-south-bend-10k.22935/

I took it off with a engine hoist and nylon strapping wrapped around the inside openings of the lathe bed.  Take care not to cut the strapping on the sharp casting.  Whatever you do, don't bend the lead screw.  All up, with cabinet, it should weight a little over 700 pounds.  I wouldn't separate the lathe from the cabinet if you can avoid it as with a trailer it should be easy to load and unload.

If you have a few beefy friends you could possible slide it right on the trailer.  With mine, I can slide it around on the concrete by myself, with effort.


----------



## SCLead (Aug 6, 2018)

If you go the trailer route, try to have a plan for how you're going to load it so you know what to get. I got a Home Depot trailer (no uhauls in stock nearby at the time) with a tailgate that can't be removed. It required a pretty long reach to get the lathe past the opened tailgate/ramp. We wound up extending the boom all the way on an engine hoist and lifting the tailgate up so the hoist legs could roll under the tailgate to get closer to the actual trailer. Pipe rollers and a bit of muscle to bring it in. A bit sketchy. If you can get one without a ramp tailgate, it should be easier to load - unless you plan to use the ramp to roll furniture dollies up or something.

Like DoogieB said - I wrapped a round sling through my ways under the bed, being careful to avoid contact with the lead screw. The balance point on my 10L pretty much fell right under the headstock, so I had to walk and keep pressure on the tail end of the cabinet to keep it near level.

Unloading it, I used my gantry crane, and a 3" web sling tied into a loop (water knot) through the bed again, and just drove the trailer out from under it.


----------



## brino (Aug 6, 2018)

Skowinski said:


> Here's the catalog number on the gearbox plate: CL370ZD
> And the serial number from the ways near the tailstock: 22994NKR7



@Skowinski, I found that catalog number on page 30 (or page 32 of 92 in the PDF) of the Southbend 1952 full catalog #5205.
That full 1952 catalog is already here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/southbend-1952-full-catalog-5205.3076/

I believe the same catalog numbers were used for a few years.

-brino


----------



## Dave Paine (Aug 6, 2018)

SCLead said:


> Another option to check for flame hardened ways is to look between the rear V-ways on the far right end. If there's a stamping that reads "DDB200RG," it's flame hardened. Though, to be fair, I only know for certain that this applies to 10L's.



I had not paid attention to that stamping on my lathe bed, but I checked and the bed has the stamp.    Good to know some of the meaning.


----------



## Dave Paine (Aug 6, 2018)

A good place to look up your serial number.

WSWells SB serial number page


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 9, 2018)

Thanks everyone for all the help, and the education on these SB lathes.  It's home.





Maybe I'll start a new thread once I get things going here in the garage.


----------



## Lordbeezer (Aug 9, 2018)

A CL370ZD should be a 10K..if it's the original gearbox.or tag.


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 9, 2018)

Lordbeezer said:


> A CL370ZD should be a 10K..if it's the original gearbox.or tag.



Yep, and yesterday I chucked up a piece of straight bar stock, slid the tailstock up to it, and it lined up.  That's clearly a 9" tailstock, so this thing is a 9" lathe.  All I can figure is the gearbox info plate, or the entire gearbox, is from a 10k.  Probably the exact same gearbox they put in the 9" lathe anyway....


----------



## derf (Aug 9, 2018)

It has a 9" apron, so it would have a 9" gearbox. I think it's got the wrong tag.


----------



## kopeck (Aug 9, 2018)

derf said:


> It has a 9" apron, so it would have a 9" gearbox. I think it's got the wrong tag.



Pretty sure the 9 and 10k share the same QCGB.

K


----------



## bss1 (Aug 10, 2018)

Yep said:
			
		

> Good news that the tailstock matched up. Otherwise acquiring a somewhat less common 10” one in good condition might have been costly. I can’t say I ever tried switching gear boxes between my 9 and 10” models, but they did appear to be the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## derf (Aug 10, 2018)

The QCGB and the apron go hand in hand, it's a height thing. The 10K uses a 9" apron, so it would also use a 9" QCGB. The heavy 10" uses a rectangular apron and a larger QCGB.


----------



## kopeck (Aug 10, 2018)

derf said:


> The QCGB and the apron go hand in hand, it's a height thing. The 10K uses a 9" apron, so it would also use a 9" QCGB. The heavy 10" uses a rectangular apron and a larger QCGB.



I don't disagree with anything you said.  The tag on his QCGB says it's a 10K, it could be the wrong tag or someone installed a 10K QCGB on a 9.  Who knows on either account, all that matters is that it works. 

K


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 17, 2018)

So, I have an AXA QCTP and set it on the compound slide with a 3/8" HSS tool in it.  As you can see the tool holder needs to be slid practically all the way down to the slide to align the tool with the work center.  

I'm wondering if the dovetail graduated base the compound moves on is a standard 9A part?  It seems to be thicker than ones I find pictures of online.  It's about 18 mm / 0.75" thick.


----------



## kopeck (Aug 17, 2018)

It sure does look thicker than mine, like almost a 1/2".

For what it's worth that's almost exactly how my QCTP works on my Craftsman 6".  It's fine for turning but a bit of a pain to use with a parting tool.

K


----------



## derf (Aug 17, 2018)

I just checked the compounds on my machines and here's what I found: On the 9", the base is .307" thick with an overall height of 1.500". On the heavy 10", the base is .472" with an overall height of 1.764".
 Here's my theory:  The 10K uses a 9" compound, with a thicker base to make up for the larger swing. So it could be that it either has the wrong base, or it could have the right base and the wrong headstock and tailstock. Since the serial# says it's a 10K, it could be the latter.
 Another thing I noticed was that the compound dial has 200 graduations, something I've never seen before on a compound.


----------



## kopeck (Aug 17, 2018)

I think derf is on to something.

I suspect you have parts of a couple of machines here.  If you machine came with a lantern tool post (which I'm guessing it did) it probably worked OK but with the quick change it made the parts mis-match show up.

Is the compound in decent shape?  I wonder if you could trade someone for a 9 style.  The 10k is a bit less common so your compound should be  a tad more desirable.

K


----------



## Skowinski (Aug 17, 2018)

Thanks guys.  I did some more searching around.  All of the photos of 9 inch SB's compounds appear to have a base that is basically about half the thickness of this one - probably the measurement of about 0.3" that derf got.  That extra ~1/2 inch total height would accomodate a 10 inch swing - I'd bet it's a 10k compound base as was suggested.

I think I have a Franken-lathe!  LOL.  I'll sort it out.

Still going to be a few weeks before I put this thing back on the cabinet and start to fiddle with it more.  I was overcome with the desire to strip, clean up, and paint that ugly green cabinet first.  It's got an original grey paint, slathered over with ugly green paint laid on with a brush.  Uggh... damn hillbillies.


----------

