# They do not make things like they did before



## tq60 (Jul 23, 2017)

We had a craftsman RAS with DRO that we picked up on clearance many moons ago and it was fun as the DRO was dead on for wood.

Not knowing any better as we were table saw preference it seemed okay.

Over the years the DRO would fail and we would fix it and the carriage seemed a bit loose.

A few months ago we found an older one at an estate sale that per the table had very low is and was made with lots more cast iron and lots more weight and for  20 bucks had to come home.

Good fit and no slop so swap out full saw from base and good to go .

Ordered the recall box and tore it apart and what a cheap build thus reason for this thread.

We can post of comparison of newer to older of same items.

The RAS above both had similar motor units but the older one has a cast iron arm and the carriage has 2 ball bearing wheels on each side that dude on a round rod resting Un a groove in the arm...The older than that one seen at a thrift store had much more cast iron but same arm and just the grooves.

The newer one that was sent away for recall has a rolled steel tube shape with a dodge along the center that 2 wheels ride in then a bearing wheel at each side to support the weight.

A very poor design that once we used the older one the newer one felt like garbage.

They changed over the years and the thrift store one did not have the round rids on the arm as does ours so we thinks the bearings may have been expensive or some other reason to make that change but no obvious difference.

Thrift store one was well used and in the rain priced at 90 bucks so we let it stay.

That is our contribution. 

What else is going downhill fast besides craftsman tools.

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## wawoodman (Jul 23, 2017)

Craftsman has been on a slide for 30 years or more. I have some wrench sets and other tools from the 70's, still US made. 

Now? Garbage. Still waiting to see if Stanley will bring them back to be worthy of the name, or will they just let them disappear?

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/900mm-stanley-black-and-decker-buys-craftsman/27928/


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## kd4gij (Jul 24, 2017)

Stanley bought the Craftsman brand for the lawn and garden line. They own the Proto brand of hand tools, witch I have read the quality has gone down since. So  I don't have much hope.
Black n decker bought Dewalt. So don't have much hope for the Craftsman power tools either  and I have most of the C3 line.


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## Mikebr5 (Jul 24, 2017)

My children get old tools for birthdays and Christmas. Next Christmas they are all getting old USA vices. I don't worry about patina- I take them apart, clean 'em up, replace fasteners as needed, some HP grease on the lead screw and wrap 'em up. 
I have 7 children, so this turns into a year long project along with birthdays and such. 

Combination wrenches... The old ones just feel better.


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## dlane (Jul 24, 2017)

Irwin  also went overseas . Vice grips aren't what they used to be anymore.


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## wawoodman (Jul 25, 2017)

Although, I have to admit: even though I've never gone overseas, I'm not what I used to be, either...


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 25, 2017)

Time was, you could walk into a Sears tool area with a broken Craftsman tool and they'd give you a new one off the shelf. Now, well the last time I tired, you needed a receipt and if the tool is over 1 year old, forget it. Not only have the tools gone down hill so has their guarantee.


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## wawoodman (Jul 25, 2017)

That's because, if an old Craftsman tool broke, it was rare enough to be replaced. Nowadays, they expect it.


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## tq60 (Jul 25, 2017)

Last ratchet we Tok in they opened a drawer full of rebuilt American ones and offered choice of them or a new one with a wink...

Took an old rebuilt one

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## woodchucker (Jul 25, 2017)

T Bredehoft said:


> Time was, you could walk into a Sears tool area with a broken Craftsman tool and they'd give you a new one off the shelf. Now, well the last time I tired, you needed a receipt and if the tool is over 1 year old, forget it. Not only have the tools gone down hill so has their guarantee.


I recently replaced a set of needle nose. No arguments. When I was in my 20's I broke a breaker bar ear off. I got a hard time , the guy didn't want to replace it, he wanted me to buy a larger size unit. I have since had no problems.  I avoid Crapsman these days, but if one breaks it gets replaced. They are not quality any more. I have never been impressed with their wood working tools.  Their miter slots on all saws are not standard, they are sears size.


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## kd4gij (Jul 25, 2017)

Back in the day Craftsman woodworking power tools where made my Emerson Electric. Witch sold there tools under the Ridged name. When Emerson contract to sale through Home Depot Sears drop them and went to Ryobi. And things went down hill. Now HD owns the Ridged brand


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## chips&more (Jul 25, 2017)

I frequent the flea market and garage sales so much, that I almost don’t even look at hand tools anymore, especially Crapsman. I will buy Snap On if priced right. And a newer Crapsman power tool, sorry, won’t look at that either. Back in the day yes, today no…Dave.


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## Ebel440 (Jul 26, 2017)

I try to avoid buying any new tools if I can too. Flea market and garage sale ones are built better and even if they are 50 years old they are in better condition then the new junk they sell these days.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 28, 2017)

It would appear that the consumer got what they asked for, namely very inexpensive tools. For every single manufacturer of high quality tools at a premium price there are dozens of other companies that will produce or market a similar product at consumer commodity prices. One will rarely find the quality products at the big box tool stores, this is not where industry buys such things.

This is a fascinating look into the past and economic globalization, a PDF scan of the 1972-1973 Sears tool catalog http://www.blackburntools.com/artic...s/pdfs/sears-craftsman-1972-73-power-hand.pdf  If you were to do a web search today you would find the same products for prices similar to 1973, at far lower quality however. I do realize that manufacturing technological advancement has played a large part in this, there were poorly made inexpensive tools 40 years ago as well, they are mostly not around today for comparison.

1" tenth reading micrometer with carbide faces. $26.99 in 1973
Fowler 1" tenth reading mic without carbide faces, $24.93 in 2017 after 44 years of inflation. 

Or better yet a set of 4 for $64.95 in 2017, the consumer got what they wanted which is the lowest possible price. Do not blame the manufacturers for poor quality hand tools they just produce what the market wants.


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## tq60 (Jul 30, 2017)

We picked up a Sioux 1/2 drill motor for 8 bucks at a yard sale.

Heavy rascal and may never use it but it is built well and has a lot of torque.

Our 5/8 portable from way back will throw you without hesitation.

Mag drills common now and very expensive but hard to find portable brute drills anymore.

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## 4GSR (Jul 30, 2017)

I was 15 years old when the 1973 Sears power hand tool catalog came out.  I drooled over getting a set of 0-4" mics out of that catalog back then.  All I had to work with then was a 0-1" Army surplus mic and a pair of 0-6" Helios calipers!  Never got those mics.


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## RJSakowski (Jul 30, 2017)

T Bredehoft said:


> Time was, you could walk into a Sears tool area with a broken Craftsman tool and they'd give you a new one off the shelf. Now, well the last time I tired, you needed a receipt and if the tool is over 1 year old, forget it. Not only have the tools gone down hill so has their guarantee.


That's interesting because I have a toolbox full of Craftsman tools that came with a lifetime guarantee.  

I gave up on Craftsman years ago.  The last time that I had a guarantee problem, it was a 13mm socket that had split.  They didn't have any replacement sockets so I walked out without a new socket.  That was maybe twenty years ago.  The time before was probably thirty years ago and I had an issue with 3" aluminum C clamps breaking.  Some woman working in hardware ( I think that she transferred from lingerie because she didn't know anything about tools or hardware)  balked at replacing the broken clamp, saying"if you keep bringing these clamps in for replacement, how are we supposed to make a profit?"   I replied that "if you made them properly, I wouldn't keep bringing them in."  I told her that I would take the cheaper 3" cast iron instead.  I still have that cast iron clamp.

It is a huge fall from a company that was the mainstay of rural America a hundred plus years ago to the pitiful company it now is.  IMO, the marketing strategy has been been to transform from a company that could meet virtually any conceivable need to a bunch of boutique departments with the slimmest of offerings.  Small wonder that they are in the financial mess they're in


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## RJSakowski (Jul 30, 2017)

My wife was a sales rep for Black and Decker in the UK in the '90's.  During her training, she was told that their line of power tools was intended for the occasional user and not expected to stand up to every day use.


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## wawoodman (Jul 30, 2017)

tq60 said:


> We picked up a Sioux 1/2 drill motor for 8 bucks at a yard sale.
> 
> Heavy rascal and may never use it but it is built well and has a lot of torque.
> 
> ...



I still have an old Craftsman 1/2" single speed that I bought (reconditioned) in the 70s. I used it when I was installing locksets. If that 2-1/4 inch bit caught in the door, it could break your wrist.


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## extropic (Jul 30, 2017)

RJSakowski said:


> That's interesting because I have a toolbox full of Craftsman tools that came with a lifetime guarantee.
> 
> I gave up on Craftsman years ago.  The last time that I had a guarantee problem, it was a 13mm socket that had split.  They didn't have any replacement sockets so I walked out without a new socket.  That was maybe twenty years ago.  The time before was probably thirty years ago and I had an issue with 3" aluminum C clamps breaking.  Some woman working in hardware ( I think that she transferred from lingerie because she didn't know anything about tools or hardware)  balked at replacing the broken clamp, saying"if you keep bringing these clamps in for replacement, how are we supposed to make a profit?"   I replied that "if you made them properly, I wouldn't keep bringing them in."  I told her that I would take the cheaper 3" cast iron instead.  I still have that cast iron clamp.
> 
> It is a huge fall from a company that was the mainstay of rural America a hundred plus years ago to the pitiful company it now is.  IMO, the marketing strategy has been been to transform from a company that could meet virtually any conceivable need to a bunch of boutique departments with the slimmest of offerings.  Small wonder that they are in the financial mess they're in



I completely agree with your comments. We are of comparable age, I think. I started building my Craftsman collection in mid '60s. By the mid '70s the homeowner grade power tools had pretty much taken over and even the CRAFTSMAN COMMERCIAL (top of the line) power tools were very poor performers. The hand tool quality lasted a lot longer, IMO.

In the '70s and '80s Sears had a world class catalog order and fulfillment system in place. I used it plenty. How the company failed to convert the catalog order system into a leading internet order system is a world class booboo.


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## tq60 (Jul 30, 2017)

Just think about it....

Back in the day it was sears and now amazon...

If sears would have kept the original buisiness and worked towards Internet support they could have easily pulled it off.

They stepped away and amazon was born...

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## Twalther (Aug 1, 2017)

Last time I was at Sears was in the early 80's I was going to buy a belt / disc sander, when I went to pay they said that they would not take my Master card only a Sears card, I said fine I will get my sander else were.  Was never back in that store.


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## tq60 (Aug 1, 2017)

We often would be dragged to the mall and would mosey through the sears tool area and back in the day the power tools were fun to touch and the assorted power tools and other things often were interesting. 

But the last 10 or more years it has got very dull and we have more fun at harbor freight as they often have some clever things that may or may not be well made but fun to look at.

Picked up a long reach vice grip type pliers that can clamp on something through a hole and a ratcheting tap wrench that both seem to work well.

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## Downwindtracker2 (Aug 19, 2017)

Craftsman RAS are why RAS got a rep being inaccurate . B&D ran DeWalt down hill in the late "60s.  Every single Craftsman electrical tool, except for a shop-vac, I've bought I have regretted buying, and those were from the '70s.


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## Eddyde (Aug 19, 2017)

I posted this a couple of years ago but it fits here as well:
There have been a few tool buying dissapointments over the years but the first is always the worst.
I was 18 and very much into woodworking at the time (1980). I saved up to buy Sears Craftsman Router, their top of the line, "2 ½" Hp. with dust collection, built in light and "micrometer" depth gauge. Wow, I thought I was in the big leagues with a real pro tool that would be with me for many years to come... Well the ugly truth reared its head during my first project. I quickly discovered, the "micrometer" depth gauge was almost useless being poorly designed rack and pinion arrangement, executed in cheap plastic. Then I found the base wouldn't square to the tool without several rounds of tweaking. But worst, the base wasn't concentric with the spindle... Crestfallen as I was I managed to work around the routers issues and complete a few projects. Then about a year and a half later, I was using it to cut a dado in some pine for a bookcase When it started making a hellacious sound and sparks started flying out of it. Upon opening it up I found the top bearing had come loose, being held in place by a small stamped metal bracket "secured" by two screws threaded directly into plastic. I managed to temporarily fix it and complete the bookcase but I never used it after that.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Aug 20, 2017)

I did buy a couple of Craftsman  open end wrenches yesterday, at $2 each, in those handy sizes like 11/16 x 19/32 .  They are sturdy wrenches, made in the same factory as KD, but coarse finished, raised panel . After using them for a day, you know the a reason wrenches are now made like Macs.


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## seanb (Aug 23, 2017)

I will be a contrary voice in the wilderness. i think the reason manufactures made things that lasted was because the materials and  technology was not available to make things cheaper. It would have been in a manufactures best interest to make things that wear out quickly, so they could sell another one. 

I agree that its sad but most likely the natural progression of things.


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## Jonathans (Aug 23, 2017)

I have a few new tools that I am real proud of their quality.
1) Sawstop Cabinet saw
2) Minimax 24" bandsaw
3) Festool router and domino
4) Esteem 2x72 grinder
5) Lie Neisen and Veritas planes.
All of these are fine tools that will last a long time.  Expensive? Yes. But you get what you pay for most of the time.
Just goes to show that quality can be had, at a price.


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## dlane (Aug 23, 2017)

Planned obsolescence happens where engineering meets capitalism. Products aren’t designed to last; they’re designed for the dump. In this situation, engineers don’t aim to create the best possible machine. They aim for maximum profit through steady sales


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## tq60 (Aug 23, 2017)

dlane said:


> Planned obsolescence happens where engineering meets capitalism. Products aren’t designed to last; they’re designed for the dump. In this situation, engineers don’t aim to create the best possible machine. They aim for maximum profit through steady sales


Back in the day we were a practical bunch and thanks to the depression folks were not wanting to waste but rather buy servicable items.

In Maybury Floyd made a comfortable living fixing things.

Now folks want "trendy" things that look good or in style.

Something flashy comes out and resistance to buy as old one works fine...what to do...?

Design such that item lasts until next style comes along and performance drops such that a new one is needed since it costs more to repair than replace and old does not look as good...

Cheaper to build and easier to sell more as the cheaper one easier to throw in the trash.

Fine for toasters but not for stationary tools or power tools that are expected to last.

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## RandyM (Aug 24, 2017)

dlane said:


> Planned obsolescence happens where engineering meets capitalism. Products aren’t designed to last; they’re designed for the dump. In this situation, *engineers don’t aim to create the best possible machine*. They aim for maximum profit through steady sales



Sorry, I disagree. It all starts with the consumer and works down the chain with sales and marketing, accounting, and then the engineer. Engineers are given the constraints to design by. How many times have you read threads that the very first thing is that cost or budget is important? We as consumers no longer want to save to buy what we want, we just want it now and then complain that something doesn't last as long as we think it should. So to put it another way, you would not be happy with the cost of something if the "engineers designed the best possible machine".


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## Birder (Aug 24, 2017)

I looked at the US Inflation Calculator website.  The factor for inflation is about 5X from 1973. Some manufacturing process and material efficiencies would make for less expensive tools.  I have to think the same type people shop at Harbor Freight as Sears back then. I agree with Randy; US consumers' love of cheapness has driven things down.  Some large fraction of the 1/5 cost (most of these tools carry prices similar to today's dollars) is just a lower bar. We don't want good stuff.  We want to save money.  But there is one thing that still astounds me.  Can't offshore manufacturers charge us 2/5 of the price (or something) and make stuff that functions, fits together, and lasts a few times?  That's the piece I can't quite get.  Jim


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## benmychree (Aug 24, 2017)

I do not buy cheap crap, avoid HF like the plague; you can buy some very good stuff on EB that (has lasted) and will last for many more years, but of course it is not instant gratification, you sometimes have to wait a long time for what you want/need.  No, at least for the most part, they do not make things like they used to, for the reasons stated above; things are still available of high quality, such as cutting tools, but certainly at a premium price.


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## Old junk (Aug 24, 2017)

I second what be said above problem with hf is not only the garbage they sell,but people figure what the heck if it doesn't last I'll throw it out cause it was so cheap and I'll buy another.that only fuels the hf beast,buy something either used or new that is of quality and you will have it forever.hard for tool companies to make quality when only a handful are willing to pay.ok enough ranting sorry.


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## benmychree (Aug 24, 2017)

Old junk said:


> I second what be said above problem with hf is not only the garbage they sell,but people figure what the heck if it doesn't last I'll throw it out cause it was so cheap and I'll buy another.that only fuels the hf beast,buy something either used or new that is of quality and you will have it forever.hard for tool companies to make quality when only a handful are willing to pay.ok enough ranting sorry.


In my opinion, that is not a rant, it is reality.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Aug 25, 2017)

AvE in his vids on YouTube confronts power tool engineering.  If you get over his shop floor language , there is a lot of  interesting things on the build of both new and old tools.  

I still have a 1971 Canadian hand tool catalogue from Stanley.13  Russell Jennings bits in a box$55, at a fine woodworking store 9 in roll $300, with a inflation adjuster that about the same price. We would save up knowing that we would use them for the rest of our lives.  How many are willing to do that? How many of your wives shop at Walmart ?


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## benmychree (Aug 25, 2017)

Downwindtracker2 said:


> AvE in his vids on YouTube confronts power tool engineering.  If you get over his shop floor language , there is a lot of  interesting things on the build of both new and old tools.
> 
> I still have a 1971 Canadian hand tool catalogue from Stanley.13  Russell Jennings bits in a box$55, at a fine woodworking store 9 in roll $300, with a inflation adjuster that about the same price. We would save up knowing that we would use them for the rest of our lives.  How many are willing to do that? How many of your wives shop at Walmart ?


I do not shop at Wallyworld, and my wife does not either.


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## David S (Aug 25, 2017)

Colleagues and friends here.  I have read all the posts here and can certainly understand most perspectives.  I would like to share my experience, which may or may not agree with your perception.

I am an electrical engineer and in the 60's and 70's worked for GTE Automatic Electric in Brockville, canada, designing electronic common control end office switches, pabx's and apartment entrance systems.

As my young family expanded we felt it was time to turn our large attached garage into a three room addition.  Money was tight, but I was a DIY'er and said I could do it.  Needing power tools I bought a Black & Decker drill and jig saw for about $9 each and a low end circ saw for about $29, could have been $39.

Finished the project and all worked well, the tools served me well. The circ saw got shoved away and never used much, but the drill and jig saw continued to be used occasionally. 

As I moved on in my career I wanted to do more design for consumer products rather that stuff that no one knew about.  And in 1981 and opportunity came up to join the design team at Black & Decker in my original town.
They had a huge manufacturing facility, quite vertically integrated, with a magnesium die casting foundry, plastic molding area, and we made all of our own motors with many field and armature winding lines.

After a few months of getting there, there was some organisation changes and I ended up managing the test labs as well as my original design position. And this turned out to be a real eye opener.  B&D tested all of the competitors DIY products.  Wen, Skill, Pet, Craftsman..and the list went on.

B&D's goal was to provide ultimate value to the DIYer...ie best function at the lowest cost...with a two year warranty.  And from all of our testing we out performed the consumer products by a significant margin and at lower cost.  However Craftsman power tools were different.  While they were typically more expensive than ours, they were often better performers.  At the time I was involved, Craftsman power tools were made by Singer.  While most of our competitors failed due to motor issues, Craftsman/ singer held up very well and were perhaps more robust than the average DIYer required.

As time moved on we changed manufacturing locations and had our own plants in Mexico and China.  I was fortunate to visit a number of our suppliers in China.  I think I have seen the low of the low and also some of the best.  But what I can tell you from my experience is that there are many Chinese suppliers that can provide you with exactly what you want on quality, on cost, on time. 

I retired from B&D 6 years ago just about the time that Stanley acquired them, so can not comment on where they are now.  All I can say is that of all the products that I helped design for DIY consumers, I feel proud and firmly believe they delivered good value.

Now before I leave... Just a thought.  I think most of the folks posting on this thread are perhaps older than 25 when I used my first B&D tools.  Do we think perhaps as we have gained more experience and perhaps wealth, we have moved up to another level?

All the best,

David


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## 4GSR (Aug 25, 2017)

RandyM said:


> Sorry, I disagree. It all starts with the consumer and works down the chain with sales and marketing, accounting, and then the engineer. Engineers are given the constraints to design by. How many times have you read threads that the very first thing is that cost or budget is important? We as consumers no longer want to save to buy what we want, we just want it now and then complain that something doesn't last as long as we think it should. So to put it another way, you would not be happy with the cost of something if the "engineers designed the best possible machine".


The same widget I designed and built 30 years ago started out made of 4140 heat treated material.  The same widget made today is dimensionally the same but the material changed from 4140 to 1040/1045 steel with no heat treat.  And the price is less today than what it sold for back in 1987!  The customers wanted a cheaper price?  They got a cheaper price with a sacrifice in how long it would last.  Quality was still there, it met the criteria of dimensional requirements and made the customer happy!  Even though, design parameters were sacrificed a little.


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## tq60 (Aug 27, 2017)

This has got fun which was the intent.

But there has always been the get what you pay for levels where you expect certian things at different price points.

But the issue here is a given item at a given price point has established a certian expectation of given quality and over time corners are trimmed to save cost but when these are trimmed the design could have still maintained performance but failed.

The starting item was the RAS.

The old design has 4 bearing wheels with 2 on each side allowing a good ability to maintain tracking with what seems to be easy to manufacture (read cheap) process.

New design is rolled steel which is cheaper to make but has a rail formed down the center with only 2 guide wheels with 2 on the outside.

The geometry sucks and poor bearings make worse.

The over arm on our cast iron model has round steel for "ways" and that could have been formed in the new one so instead of keeping working design they came up with new and "inproved"....

The DRO was nice until it quit....

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## xman_charl (Aug 27, 2017)

got 2 lithium ion powered hand drills

one is craftsman, owned an early model, but it broke

other is Dewalt....brushless motor, gear box speed shifter on top, weight is less than craftsman

notice craftsman is still using those nylon gears in the plantery gear box...

Dewalt uses metal plantery gears.

my 2 cents

Charl


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## Birder (Aug 28, 2017)

I still use a hand saw, sabre saw, and hammer from a cheap set of Craftsman tools my parents bought for me when I was 10, in 1975.  Have I moved up?  I dunno. I have other tools that are more expensive.  I have a mix of cheap stuff and good stuff.  It seems like the mid-market, or sweet spot for most tool sales has definitely moved down in the US.  Jim


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## KBeitz (Sep 28, 2018)

At one time sears was my go to store. With my first paycheck I ever made in 1967
I went to Sears and bought this drill for $16.50 ... I used it for years until the armature
came apart. I took it to a Sears repair store and they fixed it for $100.00... I told them
what i paid for the drill new and I wanted my old parts and my drill back. They could 
keep the  new armature. I picked up the drill and threw it in my junk box where it sat
for years. One day I took it out for some reason and plugged it in... Wow... it works...
They never took back out the new armature and never charged me anything... Once 
in a blue moon I still use the drill. I wish you could still buy good old Sears tools.


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## Smithdoor (Sep 28, 2018)

All my tools work great
I did purchased be for 1980

Dave


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## savarin (Sep 28, 2018)

I look at the price and quality of most things I purchase and decide what I can afford and how long it MUST last for value and before failure.
I had an original black and decker 4" angle grinder that lasted for over 30 years and believe me it was really put through its paces in that time.
Eventually it spat the dummy and failed and was irreparable. The new black and decker failed after 3 years.
Since then I purchased the cheapest one I can find with a 2 year guarantee and work it to death till it fails and I can swap it or buy a new one. 
When it comes down to price and what most people would pay the majority of manufacturers went off shore for cheaper wages and either survival or greater profits.
 Most importers only want the cheapest product they can supply which is why Walmart products are mainly sourced from China as they will build to the price and specs you want to pay for.
I look at what I want to be payed for my job and consider that in my decisions which is why I dont quibble when paying tradies high fees (assuming they do a proper job and dont cut corners)
I have just returned from China and I do get fed up with the perpetual China knocking as they DO make awesome products if you want to pay for them just like most western countries do.
The more you travel the more you come to realise that the average Joe is only interested in one thing, and thats feeding his family and if he/she is employed then the majority try to do the best job they can.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Oct 6, 2018)

On Made in China. The Chinese should be able to make things better than Americans, their machines are newer, Chinese workers are neither lazy nor stupid, and they have a never ending supply of engineers. But they don't. It's cultural, a what can we get away with attitude.


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## ddickey (Oct 6, 2018)

Go to HarryJEpstein.com and do a search for Craftsman. Out of the 74 tools 65 are made in the USA and 2 in Germany. They must have massive old stock.


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## Boswell (Oct 6, 2018)

Downwindtracker2 said:


> On Made in China. The Chinese should be able to make things better than Americans, their machines are newer, Chinese workers are neither lazy nor stupid, and they have a never ending supply of engineers. But they don't. It's cultural, a what can we get away with attitude.



First let me say that I have not been directly involved with Chinese tool manufacturers, have any training as an econimist or pretty much any qualifications to support my options .  However, I still disagree with the statement that the low quality that is sometimes associated with China made items is a cultural issue.  I think it is nothing more than economics. I think there are at least two major factors driving the low quality. 1. There are a HUGE number of people starting businesses in china and I would expect that it is easier to start a manufacturing business with lower quality standards due to competition for small % of high skill sets and lower capital investment. 2. Low cost is what people want. There seems to be a never ending supply of people (resellers in the US and other countries) that want the lowest possible price over the best possible quality. You don't get a contract to supply socket sets to Wal-Mart  by using the highest quality materials and processes.  One of the advantages that China manufactures have right now is that in the race to the lowest possible price, they can go lower than most any other country and if that is were the best pay-day is, you can bet they will keep doing that.  If the landscape changes and the mass world market changes to value quality over price then I have no doubt that China based manufacturing will be competitive in that space as well.

I found a report online that shows that Since 2000, China has increased its merchandise exports 10X from around and in 1990 only had 2% of the Global merchandize export market. Now it is closer to 13%.  The point is that probably >90% of all of the merchandise exporters are less than a few years old and very few if any are 20 years old. Compare that to the established "high quality" brand names that we talk about with some having 100 year histories (Browne and Sharpe = 185 years old and Starrett =138).  

Anyway, not sure any of this means anything.


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## Allan (Oct 6, 2018)

Among my grievances is the loss of quality files. A few years ago I bought a Mgic File. It worked great- fast stock removal and nice fine finish. That lasted about 2 months after which it just slipped across the surface. Made in Mexico, I think. In checking none of the files today are made in US or Canada. I have some old dogies that are and I treasure them. I keep an eye out at garage sales but most guys seem to to just chuck them in a drawer slide it in and out a couple of times and let the roof leak on them. 

One thing to lookout for with used files is to check for clogging. Many garage sale files seem dull when they are only clogged. My buddy was given a bunch of old files and he thought they were shot. But I pointed out hat many are just clogged. People didn't clean grease off a shaft or whatever. So I showed him how to use a oleic of brass to rundown the teeth. A few days later he had a couple of good US made files good for another 20 years. I am slowly converting him into file aficionado. 

Most people hate filing- especially kids in the High School shop where I worked. I enjoy filling with a good file and have become fairly proficient at it.  I can just kind of get lost in the moment and there is real feel of accomplishment it laying a square on the piece and seeing only a sliver of light under the blade. One of my cheaper pleasures in life to be sure.


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## markba633csi (Oct 6, 2018)

I've been filing and hacksawing since I was a youngster.  I still do both.  To me having files around is as integral to metalworking as drilling a hole.
Also, I have two Craftsman drills, a 3/8" variable and a 1/2" impact made in China in the early 90s.  On sale with blowmolded cases I paid about 100$ for the two.  Didn't expect much but they surprised me with their quality-must be a fluke for Sears at that time:
Excellent drill motors and comfortable to use. Much better than the previous made in US Craftsman drill I had.
Also have a HF engine hoist which works fine and is well made. 99$ on sale.  But I rarely buy much from them- especially not power tools.
mark


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## Downwindtracker2 (Oct 6, 2018)

My comment on the cultural aspect of quality comes from a couple of purchasing agents, the first machine parts meet the specs but they don't keep to the quality., and working beside Chinese immigrants . We are very multicultural here.  But I'm looking at this from a Canuck point of view.


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## Buffalo21 (Oct 6, 2018)

I worked in China, for close to a year, they are neither lazy or stupid, if we as a country stopped buying cheap crap, they would instantly stop making cheap crap. The Chinese don’t market anything in this country, except for Milwaukee and a few other Chinese companies, the vast majority of the cheap crap, is ordered by American businesses, to fix a price structure. If for example, Target wants a table lamp, that has a sell price of $20, with a unit cost of less than $6, they will find someone to do it, how they get the cost down, is up to them. So who’s to blame, for the cheap lamp, the manufacturer or the wholesaler? We are a country that complains about cheap Chinese products, yet still want a full shopping cart from Wal-Mart for less than a $100, we are vocal against it, but still do it, who fault is that??


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## KBeitz (Oct 6, 2018)

I pick up files from the junkyard... I bring them home and soak the in old battery acid.
It makes them like new again.... Rinse with baking soda...


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