# Threading dies that don't suck?



## ttabbal (Apr 8, 2018)

I have been trying to get threads on 6061 with HF dies. It's not happening. I broke both handles off the die stock, I'm reasonably sure it's made of plastic painted to look like metal. And I'm no closer to having threads. 

I think I'm going to grind a custom tool to single point them for this project, but I would like to know how to identify dies that are worth buying. I found some taps that I like, I'm just trying to plan ahead and order them before I need them. But dies are proving more difficult to sort through the trash out there. I'll probably put a die holder for the lathe on the project list, but a decent hand holder might be nice to have as well. 

Or maybe I just need to single point everything...


----------



## The_Apprentice (Apr 8, 2018)

> plastic painted to look like metal.



LOL!

Are you referring to the Pittsburgh set? Otherwise infamously called "****tsburgh set" by most machinists? If so, I have the same, and it was a nightmare to work with.

One good tip I have to give you, is if you ever pick up some good old fasionsioned Made in Germany stuff, which everyone loves to borrow (and never return), you can hide those in your HF packaging and suddenly no one will want to borrow your stuff again. Best tip ever!

Another great tip, is visit a lot of garage sales this spring/summer if you can. Often you can grab an old-timer's stuff on the super cheap because family members don't know what to do with it. Most don't know value of HSS vs Carbon...


----------



## 4ssss (Apr 8, 2018)

You can't have any die last if it's not HSS.  Don't waste your money on carbon steel dies, and those are most of what is sold nowadays, so you have to look and make sure, You will have to pay for the HSS dies though.


----------



## vocatexas (Apr 8, 2018)

I've got a Gearwrench tap and die set that I really like. It also has a ratcheting die handle with adapters for taps.


----------



## benmychree (Apr 8, 2018)

Good ain't cheap, cheap ain't good -------


----------



## benmychree (Apr 8, 2018)

I should have also noted that the only really "good" die is an automatic die, such as a Geometric (and others, but Geometric is the easiest to set up).


----------



## ttabbal (Apr 8, 2018)

The_Apprentice said:


> LOL!
> 
> Are you referring to the Pittsburgh set? Otherwise infamously called "s***tsburgh set" by most machinists? If so, I have the same, and it was a nightmare to work with.



Yup, that's the one. I have actually twisted one of the taps up. That stuff doesn't deserve to even be recycled. I've tempted to build a foundry just to melt them down. And get and anvil so I can literally beat the $hit out of them. 

I've been buying HSS taps from YG-1 and been happy with them. I only have a few, but I don't mind standardizing on a few sizes to start with. That's what I was looking for in dies, though they are rare it seems. Most of the commonly available stuff is the carbon steel type. 

I've been watching local classifieds and such. I'll try to hit garage sales and such as well. I guess I might be doing more single point threading for a while.


----------



## Tony Pisano (Apr 8, 2018)

Just as a reference, McMaster has HSS dies, and the smaller sizes up to around 5/16" are in the range of 30 plus dollars each. If you can't find some used from an old machinist or at auction, by them one at a time as you need them and build up a good quality set.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Apr 9, 2018)

I just picked up a pretty complete assortment of 15 HSS dies up to 1/2 in. on eBay. All U.S. made.  Didn't pay that much, about $32. Be patient and NEVER pay retail.


----------



## David S (Apr 9, 2018)

I don't do a lot of threading large stuff with dies, however all mine are carbon steel.  If the job isn't that demanding I will start with a slightly smaller diameter if I don't need 75% thread.  Also I try to make a taper or lead in for the die to start, and part it off if it can't be left on.

What size are you using?

David


----------



## ttabbal (Apr 9, 2018)

I tried to add a taper to the part, it helped a little, but I still couldn't get it to run the thread. It's a 7/16-14.


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 9, 2018)

I bought my 40 piece Craftsman tap and die set in the late sixties for around $30.  Most of the set is still intact after fifty years.  They were advertised at the time as Chromedge.  I don't know  for sure if they were HSS or carbon steel but had always assumed HSS.  

MSC sells some HSS sets.  There is a 40 pc.  Interstate brand set for $144 (Enco user discount applied).  I have bought Interstate individual taps  in recent years and have had good luck with them.


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 9, 2018)

What I have found to work was to provide a lead section at the the tap drill diameter or slightly larger.  This gives some forward driving force insteady of relying on hand pressure.  An added benefit is there is a greater likelihood of the die running true.  When finished threading, cut the lead portion off and finish the end.

If threading with the lathe, I will apply pressure with the tailstock to get the die started and running true.


----------



## mksj (Apr 9, 2018)

There are NOS US made dies that you can pick up, and they hold up well. If I need new dies these days, I purchase Toolmex TMX (made in Poland) adjustable round dies for around $10-12 each and they work very well. I prefer to use the adjustable size so I can size the thread to the tolerance I need. Taps have a finite use and will eventually fail, so I replace mine periodically. I typically buy these in sets of three (taper, plug, bottoming), usually Morse, Cleveland, OSG etc. for about $12-15 for a box. Suncoast Tools also sells the YG-1 line of taps at reasonable pricing. I  do not use Interstate, or the other knock off branding, taps and dies as they do not cut as well/nor last in my experience. When doing threading on the lathe, I will do single point threading on the lathe to about 95% of the thread then follow with an adjustable dies to clean up the threads and finial sizing. I use a tailstock holder to hold the die/tap true if I am just using the die/tap for threading.
https://www.suncoasttools.com/crm/VendorPages.aspx?Vendor=Toolmex#subnav


----------



## Ken from ontario (Apr 9, 2018)

I have heard  that the old Craftsman KROMEDGE  sets are HSS and quite good,they are not that expensive on ebay, new old stock or used. seem to be much better than HF stuff.:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Craftsman-K...966584?hash=item3d5ec4e338:g:IH0AAOSwLI1acunv
Edit:
Here's a search I did on ebay USA:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...n+Kromedge+Tap+&+Adjustable+Die+Set+&_sacat=0


----------



## The_Apprentice (Apr 9, 2018)

> I tried to add a taper to the part,



I tried that trick in the past as well, as you also found out, it does not work with the Harbor Freight 'Sh--tsBurgh' set of dies. 

And honestly, if one has to resort to these sort of tricks for their jobs, you are using the WRONG TOOL FOR THE JOB.


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 9, 2018)

One obvious thing.  There is a correct way to use a die.  Some dies are labeled "start this side".  If the die isn't labeled, usually, the start side is marked with the thread size but check the chamfer.  Both ends are chamfered but the start side has a larger chamfer.


----------



## Silverbullet (Apr 9, 2018)

Many of the old sets will work well past anything new the hobbyists will use. I like the real full adjustable dies with two piece cutters Greenfield made about the turn of the century . But I have and use others too. I have two sets metric and sae these use a screw in the split of the die to adjust. Many things I've made I require a tighter thread tolerance then slop free spinning nut to bolt. 
I have single pointed to fit items like a grinding vise and replacement parts on all types of tools. To many times I buy a decent brand tool to find so much clearance the threads pull or strip. 
This reason alone is one reason I don't like new tools. There made to use for short periods and then disposed. AKA HF , now craftsmen , Milwaukee is still about the best. Even some tools that use to be German made are going Chinese and it really shows. 
Get yourself some very old sets you won't be sorry. Melt your HF sets and make hammer heads then really beat the s  it out of them.
Craigslist and yard sales there out there because they just don't go bad .....


----------



## wlburton (Apr 9, 2018)

Ken from ontario said:


> I have heard  that the old Craftsman KROMEDGE  sets are HSS and quite good,they are not that expensive on ebay, new old stock or used. seem to be much better than HF stuff.:
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Craftsman-K...966584?hash=item3d5ec4e338:g:IH0AAOSwLI1acunv
> Edit:
> Here's a search I did on ebay USA:
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.TRS0&_nkw=Craftsman+Kromedge+Tap+&+Adjustable+Die+Set+&_sacat=0


I looked back at some of my old Craftsman catalogs and it appears that the high speed steel dies all had a black oxide finish and were much more expensive than the carbon steel sets.  The Kromedge dies were chrome plated carbon steel.  I have Craftsman standard and metric tap and die sets I bought in about 1991, and while they've worked well for me they are not high speed steel (mine, which appear to be fairly high quality U.S. made taps and dies, were "homeowners" sets--the least expensive at $34.97 per set).  In 1991 a high speed steel 59-piece standard set cost $276.99, metric $284.99.


----------



## ttabbal (Apr 9, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> One obvious thing.  There is a correct way to use a die.  Some dies are labeled "start this side".  If the die isn't labeled, usually, the start side is marked with the thread size but check the chamfer.  Both ends are chamfered but the start side has a larger chamfer.



Thanks for mentioning it! Sadly, that was not the issue, I did double check that. But sometimes we all need someone to ask the obvious question.  



Silverbullet said:


> Get yourself some very old sets you won't be sorry. Melt your HF sets and make hammer heads then really beat the s  it out of them.



That's the plan right now, watch for some old school gear or just pick up high quality parts one at a time as needed. I'll probably just do a lot more single-pointing. I like the HF hammer idea. I might have to look into that.


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 9, 2018)

I just spark tested some of my Craftsman taps and dies, c.a 1968 and they test as high carbon steel.  According to the 1968 catalog, all Sears taps and dies were Kromedge treated.


----------



## Ken from ontario (Apr 9, 2018)

wlburton said:


> I looked back at some of my old Craftsman catalogs and it appears that the high speed steel dies all had a black oxide finish and were much more expensive than the carbon steel sets. * The Kromedge dies were chrome plated carbon steel.  I have Craftsman standard and metric tap and die sets I bought in about 1991, and while they've worked well for me they are not high speed steel* (mine, which appear to be fairly high quality U.S. made taps and dies, were "homeowners" sets--the least expensive at $34.97 per set).  In 1991 a high speed steel 59-piece standard set cost $276.99, metric $284.99.


Thank for for clarifying that, I remember Mr Pete in one of his videos mentioned the early  Kromedge tap & die sets from the early days(sixties or fifties?) was of better quality and I could swear he said they were HSS but I guess I was wrong, as you mentioned, even those days the price of HSS sets were much higher than what was available to average homeowners.
Alright then ,no more Kromedge, old sets or new.lol.


----------



## Ken from ontario (Apr 9, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> I just spark tested some of my Craftsman taps and dies, c.a 1968 and they test as high carbon steel.  According to the 1968 catalog, all Sears taps and dies were Kromedge treated.


Now we know for sure they were not actual high speed steel, just Kromedge treated, man I learn something new today. .Thanks RJ.


----------



## P. Waller (Apr 9, 2018)

These dies are readily available and as you might say do not suck, however you will not like the pricing.

Such a question would be more easily understood if phrased "threading dies that actually work that may be purchased at the same price as ones that do indeed suck".

Round split dies are excellent if one needs to closely control the PD as they may be adjusted, thread a part and gauge it, if it does not measure adjust the die.
https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn...288237407+4288237409+43+4287909744+4287650517


----------



## ttabbal (Apr 9, 2018)

Well, obviously like most home guys I would like to keep cost down. While those Vermont dies look nice and likely work well, is there a middle ground? If that's the price of entry, I guess it is what it is and we can all make our choice. 

Since I have more time than money at the moment, I'll likely use single point for now while keeping an eye out for some good used stuff or maybe try one at a time from some of the mid priced brands.


----------



## C-Bag (Apr 9, 2018)

My tap and die sets were separate Christmas gifts in the 70's. A new Craftsman metric set from my brother and a used SnapOn set from my father in law. Both have served me well and not until last year did a break a tap, the SnapOn 3/8". The best I could find was a Vermont and it's nowhere near the quality, but it's hanging in there. Recently found in the last hours of a garage sale a complete Greenlee tap plate set in the original wood box for $50! They were obviously used but still work wonderfully. The "dead men's tools" deals are out there, just gotta know what you're looking for and be patient.


----------



## whitmore (Apr 9, 2018)

ttabbal said:


> I have been trying to get threads on 6061 with HF dies. It's not happening. I broke both handles off the die stock, I'm reasonably sure it's made of plastic painted to look like metal. And I'm no closer to having threads.
> ..



6061-T2 is pretty much pure aluminum, and it's gummy.   Not as bad as copper, but not easy, either.
If you can run the dies on an old bolt, and if the edges don't look bad, it should work on 6061 with a suitable
lube.   Carbon steel should be adequate for hand die users, all my granddad's old tooling
works fine, but the better quality new products are all HSS.  For aluminum, to prevent galling, 
TiN (titanium nitride) coating is said to help.

Granddad's old die stock seems to be  forged steel; zinc alloy is the breakable stuff, try to avoid it.


----------



## P. Waller (Apr 9, 2018)

MSC has what they call a Value Collection (VC) line of tooling which I have never used so have no experience with, therefore have no opinion.

If making only a single or a handful of parts then single point them as you said. 
If doing the work in a lathe that does not support threading such as a turret lathe then a die is the only choice.
Either way have at it.


----------



## kd4gij (Apr 9, 2018)

Most of the cheaper tap in die sets are thread repair dies.  And don't have enough lead to cut new threads. Threading dies have a lot more lead.


----------



## agfrvf (Apr 9, 2018)

HF quality is all over the board. My set from 6 years ago is still going strong after many projects. HF is not consistant in anything.


----------



## royesses (Apr 9, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> I bought my 40 piece Craftsman tap and die set in the late sixties for around $30.  Most of the set is still intact after fifty years.  They were advertised at the time as Chromedge.  I don't know  for sure if they were HSS or carbon steel but had always assumed HSS.
> 
> MSC sells some HSS sets.  There is a 40 pc.  Interstate brand set for $144 (Enco user discount applied).  I have bought Interstate individual taps  in recent years and have had good luck with them.



I waited for the MSC 40 to 60% off sales on their house brand (Interstate) and purchased complete sets of HSS and lots of bottoming and left hand taps and dies. Most were 60% off. They have been very good and I have no complaints. One 2.5 mm tap broke when I tried to clean out the threads in a plastic toy for my grandson. The tap was quench cracked but no other problems have showed up. They cut 304, 4130 and 6061 T65 regularly and are very sharp. Those Chromedge sets are highly sought after and hard to find but high quality.

Roy


----------



## WarrenP (Apr 9, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> I bought my 40 piece Craftsman tap and die set in the late sixties for around $30.  Most of the set is still intact after fifty years.  They were advertised at the time as Chromedge.  I don't know  for sure if they were HSS or carbon steel but had always assumed HSS.
> 
> MSC sells some HSS sets.  There is a 40 pc.  Interstate brand set for $144 (Enco user discount applied).  I have bought Interstate individual taps  in recent years and have had good luck with them.



I have a craftsman tap and die set bought in the 70's by my father. It served him well all these years and still work very well for me now. Cant complain about them.


----------



## C-Bag (Apr 10, 2018)

agfrvf said:


> HF quality is all over the board. My set from 6 years ago is still going strong after many projects. HF is not consistant in anything.



That is absolutely true. They are constantly changing suppliers. Don't know if it's price or outfits in China going under but it's a real crapshoot what you are going to get. There is a trend though of new lines that have names like Hercules and Bauer that are their "premium " tools that are much more expensive than the lines of the past, some with names and some generic. They are priced more closely to traditional names like Dewalt etc that I'm not sure are made here anymore. 

I needed a good compound mitre saw and tried to get what everybody said was bulletproof Ridged 10". 5 stars in every place I looked. The only local dealer was Home Dump and it was not in stock, couldn't order it online and they would NOT transfer from another store over 80mi. away! The only saw's available were 12", none with 5stars and all $250 more!

After almost 2hrs of searches and calls on the Ridgid I ended up at HF. They had the new Hercules 12" dual compound "pro" saw(made in Taiwan!) for $50 more than the Ridgid I wanted but was not going spend a tank of gas and a whole day to go buy. I for the life of me will never understand what goes through corporate bozo's heads where brains are supposed to be.


----------



## ACHiPo (Apr 11, 2018)

benmychree said:


> I should have also noted that the only really "good" die is an automatic die, such as a Geometric (and others, but Geometric is the easiest to set up).


John,
I looked up Geometric dies (dice?).  Hokey smokes they're spendy!  Are they universal, i.e. does one Geometric die cut a wide range of diameters and pitches?
Evan


----------



## MrWhoopee (Apr 11, 2018)

ACHiPo said:


> John,
> I looked up Geometric dies (dice?).  Hokey smokes they're spendy!  Are they universal, i.e. does one Geometric die cut a wide range of diameters and pitches?
> Evan


One set of dies (4 pieces) cuts one thread. They are a production device. When mounted on a turret or the tailstock of a lathe, they cut threads up to a set stop point, then the die head opens, allowing retraction without stopping or reversing the spindle. The die head has a lever to allow both a roughing and finishing pass. They are a very fast device for producing threads on multiple parts. Not suitable for one-off.

Here's video


----------



## ACHiPo (Apr 11, 2018)

John,
Thanks.  I saw a new one at Travers for ~$1500.  Figured that might not be bad if it replaced a set of dies.  As a one-off it’s a no-go.
Evsn


----------



## MrWhoopee (Apr 11, 2018)

ACHiPo said:


> John,
> Thanks.  I saw a new one at Travers for ~$1500.  Figured that might not be bad if it replaced a set of dies.  As a one-off it’s a no-go.
> Evsn


$1500 would be for the die head, it will accept different thread chasers. The individual chaser sets (which are single thread size) are more in the $90 range.


----------



## Taborclock (Apr 13, 2018)

I work mainly with brass and leaded steel. I bought an inexpensive tap and die set when I started out, and replace the sizes I use a lot with quality HSS as needed. I single point anything external over a 1/4 -20 now. Good taps and dies always payoff in preventing aggravation and are worth it. Just build as you go.


----------



## PHPaul (Sep 19, 2018)

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but this seemed to be the logical place for my question.

I have an ancient Crapsman set of taps and dies that is plumb wore out.  Plus it's the cheaper carbon steel set to start with.  I want to upgrade and am looking at some HSS sets from Shars:   like these.

Prices seem pretty reasonable if they truly are HSS.  

If anyone has one of these sets, I'd appreciate some feedback.  TIA.


----------



## 9t8z28 (Sep 21, 2018)

It depends on which kit you purchased from HF.   Some of their kits are crap and some are good.   If you broke the die holder then I am almost positive you bought their $15 set, not the $40 set.   The difference in quality is big.   I have this set:  https://www.harborfreight.com/60-pc-sae-metric-tap-and-die-set-60366.html
 It works great. I’ve had it for about three years and I’ve used just about every tap and die.   The only issue I’ve ever had is two of the SAE dies are not cut perfect and I broke one of the taps,  which could’ve been my fault.  
It sounds to me like you have this set since you state you broke the die holder ?  
https://www.harborfreight.com/40-pc-carbon-steel-sae-tap-and-die-set-62831.html


----------



## ttabbal (Sep 21, 2018)

I didn't look to see which set I had before. Yup, it was the crappy one. I'd had it floating around for years only used on soft material once or twice. Broke a tap last time I tried to use one. I've been buying YG1 HSS taps and have had very good experience with them. They cut like butter compared to the HF taps and hardware store taps from Dewalt etc.. Sure, they cost about $15/ea, so they better work well. 

I haven't decided on dies yet. I've just been single point threading any external threads. I might try a few HSS dies and a nice brand name die holder or perhaps make my own. It would be nice to have a few sizes I don't need to swap gears for when I only need one. The HSS dies I see around tend to cost about the same as the nice taps I've been buying, ~$15/ea. I've decided if I do, they will be the adjustable HSS type, not the fixed style most sets come with. Last time I tried a cheaper die I ended up spending more time fighting with it than I did changing the gears and running the thread on the lathe. The more expensive HF set might well be better, but I don't think I'll be going that way.


----------



## mmcmdl (Sep 21, 2018)

Ever try to use a LH die for a RH thread ? We pulled this on a newer mechanic down the shop years ago . Kept us smiling for hours ! HSS is the only way to go when it matters btw . I have to extract a lot of grade 8 bolts out of extrusion dies at work everyday , and bolts are easier to remove than cheap taps . Old GTD's are hard to beat and sometimes they pop up at yard sales and such . ( if I don't have a thousand of them I don't have one )


----------

