# New PM25!



## wrmiller (Aug 13, 2014)

Matt's site is showing a new version of the PM25 that has a belt drive system and BLDC motor. Site also says they are going to show up this month.

Bill


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## drs23 (Aug 13, 2014)

Eyeballin' one are ya Bill?


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## mattthemuppet2 (Aug 13, 2014)

that's a really lovely looking mill! I think that would satisfy the needs of quite a few hobby machinists, myself included. Is it my imagination of is it quite a bit bigger/ beefier than the previous PM20/25? Looks like the PM45's little brother


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## wrmiller (Aug 13, 2014)

The base is shaped differently, and the column mounts on the top of the base, instead of on the back like mine. Definitely looks beefier. Kinda like the old PM30.

Bill


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## toddimus (Aug 13, 2014)

Very interested in this one!  Curious what folks think of compatibility for Hoss' CNC conversion plans.  Looks like it may just be somewhat different in the base of the column mounting.  Shouldn't affect the CNCing of things.


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## zmotorsports (Aug 13, 2014)

Actually looks like a nice little mill.  The brushless DC motor will be a nice feature for variable speed.

I also just noticed that the website now shows the 836 in both step and variable speed versions.  Looks identical to the Jet model 836.  This was not on the website until recently.  

Mike.


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## wrmiller (Aug 13, 2014)

I have a 1.5hp BLDC motor on my little SB 8k and am continually impressed with the torque and smoothness of these things. More efficient design than a brushed DC motor.

I've got my eye on a 1100w (1.5hp) BLDC motor with controller and rpm display for my PM. Just waiting on funds approval from the Banker/Wife.  

EDIT: I saw the 836s on Ebay last week, and just went to the PM site to check 'em out there. That little variable speed one looks nice for guys (me) wanting smaller hobby machines. First question from the wife will be "What are you going to do with the machines you already have?".  

Bill




zmotorsports said:


> Actually looks like a nice little mill.  The brushless DC motor will be a nice feature for variable speed.
> 
> I also just noticed that the website now shows the 836 in both step and variable speed versions.  Looks identical to the Jet model 836.  This was not on the website until recently.
> 
> Mike.


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## caveBob (Aug 13, 2014)

Arghhh, had my eye on the PM25 myself for a while. Now with BLDC, getting tougher to say no to now... need to save faster. 

Side question: say you already had a vise you could get by with for now, and ER40 collet set, besides hold downs and a R8 to ER chuck?... what else would you minimally need to get one up and running?


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## wrmiller (Aug 13, 2014)

Nothing really. Other than cutters.  

I was up and running with a hold down kit, a basic r8 collet set, and a small vise. And a cheap set of end mills from India...  

Bill



caveBob said:


> Arghhh, had my eye on the PM25 myself for a while. Now with BLDC, getting tougher to say no to now... need to save faster.
> 
> Side question: say you already had a vise you could get by with for now, and ER40 collet set, besides hold downs and a R8 to ER chuck?... what else would you minimally need to get one up and running?


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## Smudgemo (Aug 13, 2014)

caveBob said:


> Side question: say you already had a vise you could get by with for now, and ER40 collet set, besides hold downs and a R8 to ER chuck?... what else would you minimally need to get one up and running?



To do what?  I believe mills like this normally come with an inexpensive drill chuck and necessary wrenches, so probably just an electrical outlet, some mineral spirits to clean it up for use, some suitable way oil for lubrication, and some cutters that fit your collets (which might need to be single-ended if the collets aren't deep enough for doubles.  You can also get a small set of cheap R8 collets if the R8/ER40 collet chuck is too pricey right now.  You'd be up and running with suitable equipment for a lot of basic stuff.  Oh, and a test indicator or dial indicator and some sort of holder for it so you can properly tram the head would be a good thing to have.  

-Ryan


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## toddimus (Sep 5, 2014)

Anybody bite the bullet and order one of these?  I'm very interested in your first impressions!  This thing is at the top of my list for new machinery.


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## tmarks11 (Sep 5, 2014)

Ray-

Is this one of the new Taiwan bench mills you talked about in another thread?


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## Pat of TN (Sep 6, 2014)

Hrmm... Ray C, just go ahead and take my money. Make it less painful. 

I was thinking of ordering a PM25 or similar whenever I get my shop built as my first mill. Just in time... muahahaha...


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## chiroone (Sep 15, 2014)

Has anyone gotten this new model of the PM25?  Seems like the perfect bench type mill now that it  has the brushless motor and belt drive.  Has anyone made the plunge yet on this machine?  I was considering gettting the G0704, but the new PM25 now seems like the better choice


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## JayBob (Sep 16, 2014)

chiroone said:


> Has anyone gotten this new model of the PM25?  Seems like the perfect bench type mill now that it  has the brushless motor and belt drive.  Has anyone made the plunge yet on this machine?  I was considering gettting the G0704, but the new PM25 now seems like the better choice


I'm considering it...

I've got some money saved up, and I'm currently stuck between buying a mill, or buying a 2-post auto lift.  I've wanted to have a lift forever, but on the other hand, I've been wanting a mill for a long time too.  The mill could potentially make me some money though, so I don't know.  I'm torn...


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## zmotorsports (Sep 16, 2014)

JayBob said:


> I'm considering it...
> 
> I've got some money saved up, and I'm currently stuck between buying a mill, or buying a 2-post auto lift.  I've wanted to have a lift forever, but on the other hand, I've been wanting a mill for a long time too.  The mill could potentially make me some money though, so I don't know.  I'm torn...



That's a tough decision.  Personally I wouldn't be without either one.  I use the hell out of both the mill and the two post lift.

Sure beats crawling around on the floor working off of jack stands.  So much more productive and convenient working while standing and having tools on a tool cart within easy reach without having to fumble around for them while on your back.


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## chiroone (Sep 16, 2014)

The issue right now seems to be that this new model does not yet have a  big track record like the G0704. There does not seem to be a lot of after market mods yet either. I  have been  told the table is different enough from the G0704 that the CNC kits will probably not fit.  But all other things considered,  the PM25 seems to have more pluses going for it.  Last I called MAtt, he tells me that they just got a shipment in and that after all the  machines that were promised out, they have five left.


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## brav65 (Sep 26, 2014)

I just cancelled my G0759 order after speaking with Matt today.  Grizzly was very nice and apologized multiple times for the long lead time. I ordered the PM-25MV along with a 3 axis DRO, Matt sells DRO PROS units.  Matt has 5 more units in stock and told me that when they are gone his lead time will be similar to Grizzly.  I do not currently plan on converting to CNC, so the availability of conversion kits is not an issue.  I had already ordered the Hoss Belt Drive conversion plans, so that is the only down side.


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## chiroone (Sep 28, 2014)

Keep us posted about your experience with the machine. It seems like it is about the best of the small mills and I am seriously considering it.





brav65 said:


> I just cancelled my G0759 order after speaking with Matt today.  Grizzly was very nice and apologized multiple times for the long lead time. I ordered the PM-25MV along with a 3 axis DRO, Matt sells DRO PROS units.  Matt has 5 more units in stock and told me that when they are gone his lead time will be similar to Grizzly.  I do not currently plan on converting to CNC, so the availability of conversion kits is not an issue.  I had already ordered the Hoss Belt Drive conversion plans, so that is the only down side.


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## chuckorlando (Sep 28, 2014)

I would not be worried about cnc kits. It's a mill, you can make that... What I would like to know is how it cuts steel. What kinda DOC can you get. When I was looking I could afford a cheap used bridgeport or a smaller bench mill. So the 704 and the 25 and 35 or what have you was on the list. RayC more or less talked me out of it and I got a bridgy. I was told they are not meant for steel and they would no longer carry them once they were all gone. Which concerned me for parts and the machines ability.


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## wrmiller (Sep 28, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> I would not be worried about cnc kits. It's a mill, you can make that... What I would like to know is how it cuts steel. What kinda DOC can you get. When I was looking I could afford a cheap used bridgeport or a smaller bench mill. So the 704 and the 25 and 35 or what have you was on the list. RayC more or less talked me out of it and I got a bridgy. I was told they are not meant for steel and they would no longer carry them once they were all gone. Which concerned me for parts and the machines ability.



Hey Chuck,

Ray C was telling me about people who were buying these machines (PM 20/25/30) and breaking them in the first few months because people do stupid stuff like try to drill 1" holes in steel, or using 3/4" end mills to hog steel on these mills. Seriously? These things are not a BP, or even a RF45 for that matter so Matt and Ray were having to fix/replace overabused machines left and right (in my opinion, they shouldn't have fixed anything that was abused). Hence the desire to NOT carry them anymore. Can't say as I blame them either.

The only thing I can say is that the machines do very well, if you stay in their performance envelop. Largest job I have done on mine (it's soon to arrive Big Brother will handle the heavy stuff going forward) was I needed to cut a brace profile in 4"x5"x1" steel. I basically buried the endmill (solid carbide 3/8" coarse rougher) but took three passes to reach full depth of 1". I kept the feed fairly conservative and the chips coming off had a slight blue tinge to them. The mill performed flawlessly except for the aftermarket pulley kit I installed. Apparently, it wasn't designed for this heavy of a cut. But the rest of the machine took it all in stride. I wouldn't recommend a steady diet of jobs like this, but the machine will handle the occasional heavy job if care is taken. I will address the shortcomings of the pulley kit soon. 

I've cut pretty much everything so far in mine e.g., steel, hardened steel, stainless, and titanium. The biggest requirement with these smaller mills is to not over do it. Heck, I was milling forged 1911 slides for Bomar sights using a tiny Sherline mill and turning/threading Barsto barrels at 40 tpi on their little lathe. I wouldn't recommend most people tackle that, but it can be done.

My point is that these machines can do some really good work if some thought is put into the job at hand, or you can break 'em left and right. Comes down to the operator I guess.

EDIT: With the changes to the drive system, e.g pulley and belt and BLDC motor the shortcomings of my version are overcome. The newly designed vertical column is just icing on the cake.  

Bill


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## brav65 (Sep 28, 2014)

Hi Chuck,

Her is my two cents on the issue with the small mills/lathes.  Like any tool I am sure that they perform only as well as the operator.  My Grandfather taught me a great lesson when I was 6 or 7.  He and my Dad were framing a house and my Dad was using a skill saw to cut 2x4's and my Grandfather was was using a cross cut hand saw.  I asked him why he did not use the power saw and he went head to head with my Dad in cutting a stud.  He finished his cut in three strokes and had an even cut with no tear out.  My Dad pushed a little to hard, bound up the saw and had a lot of tear out.  Of course my Grandfather was a Master Craftsman who had been building homes since he was in his teens, and my Dad was an Architect.  Better tool lost out due to the lack of skill of the operator.

I teach my Son that you must think about the tools needed for each project before you start.  To do that you must understand the limitations of each tool you own.You can use a screwdriver as a chisel, pry bar, nail set, scraper... and a screwdriver.  I have a screwdriver that I use for those times that I need a small pry bar... it is slightly bent, has had its tip re-ground multiple times...  I could say that it was a crappy screw driver because it was bent and needed to be re-ground, but that would not be fair to the tool.  It will work for all the jobs, just not perform as well as it does a screw driver.  I am not planning on machining valve seats for oil pipeline valves, or milling titanium fans for jet engines.  I want to do some fun projects like create a small motor, light gunsmithing, custom parts for my bike... etc.  The PM-25MV will perform very well.

I also believe that many people are in too much of a hurry in our instant gratification world.  I create projects and enjoy each phase of the process from concept, planning, creation to final project.  I love solving problems encountered while completing projects, creating jigs and fixtures for the project.  It is as much about the process as it is the finished product.  I think that perspective comes from have worked with my hands my whole life.  As a kid I wanted to get everything finished as fast as I could, now I am happy to have the free time to work on a project for fun and enjoy every moment.

As far as parts go the PM-25MV shares nearly all its parts with the Grizzly G0704, and the ones it does not can be sourced from other places.

Final note, places like this forum are great ways for seasoned craftsman who have made all the mistakes and learned to be experts in their field to share with people like myself who are just beginning.  Thanks for your perspective and thanks for being here to share with new guys such as myself.


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## JohnJohn301 (Oct 2, 2014)

chiroone said:


> Keep us posted about your experience with the machine. It seems like it is about the best of the small mills and I am seriously considering it.




I am a PM25 convert too. I canceled my Grizzly G0759 order (from early July) this week and ordered the PM25 from Matt. After three delays from Grizzly pushing ETA out to mid-November I was done.  With all the improvements to the PM25 over the G0759, it was an easy decision to punt Grizzly green for PM blue.  It's a bit more $$$ after adding a nice DRO but, I think it's far more bang for your buck too.   

I believe there are 3 of us who were waiting on G0759s that have now canceled orders with Grizzly in favor of the PM25. I think I'm in good company on this one!  LoL 

That's my 2cents worth.


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## jharwell354 (Oct 2, 2014)

I just received the new PM-25MV mill today. I am new at milling but will report my experience as soon as I can move the machine into position.

Can anyone direct me to the PM25MV setup page?

Thanks in advance.

Jeff


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## wrmiller (Oct 2, 2014)

Just start a new thread here documenting your progress. And we LOVE pics.  

Very interested in this new mill. I have it's predecessor.





jharwell354 said:


> I just received the new PM-25MV mill today. I am new at milling but will report my experience as soon as I can move the machine into position.
> 
> Can anyone direct me to the PM25MV setup page?
> 
> ...


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## brav65 (Oct 2, 2014)

Congrats Jeff!  I am waiting for my PM-25MV.  Matt shipped it on Tuesday, so I am hoping to receive it early next week.  I will be cleaning out a spot in the garage for it this weekend.  John (posted above) and I both ordered a G0759 and cancelled and ordered a PM-25 and a DRO PROS M3 DRO from Matt as well.  I am new to metal working, but have been a woodworker for over 40 years, so I should not have to much trouble getting up and running.  

Good Luck!





jharwell354 said:


> I just received the new PM-25MV mill today. I am new at milling but will report my experience as soon as I can move the machine into position.
> 
> Can anyone direct me to the PM25MV setup page?
> 
> ...


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## BobDBob (Oct 3, 2014)

Well done Jeff ! Pictures would be awesome though.  Matt shipped my PM25 last Friday and should be here any day now. 




Bob


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## GA Gyro (Oct 3, 2014)

Pics or it did not happen... LOL

When I first decided to set up a shop... I was looking at an 1127 and a 25... then got to talking to friends/customers... and realized I could make some $$$ helping folks with projects.
Upgraded to a 1340GT and 932PDF.

Be interesting to see these machines in a shop... the pics on Matts website sometimes are not easy to imagine in one's shop.

THX


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## wrmiller (Oct 3, 2014)

Sounds like Matt has sold most of his 25s to people here on the forum. IIRC he only had 6 this time around?


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## JohnsonFabrication (Oct 3, 2014)

I have been debating for a while now on whether to get the g0704 or the pm25, and after reading all the posts here and from other places, I called Matt and asked some questions, and today, pulled the trigger and bought the pm25, it will ship on Monday they tell me. Can't wait, i'm planning to cnc it.


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## brav65 (Oct 3, 2014)

Congratulations!



JohnsonFabrication said:


> I have been debating for a while now on whether to get the g0704 or the pm25, and after reading all the posts here and from other places, I called Matt and asked some questions, and today, pulled the trigger and bought the pm25, it will ship on Monday they tell me. Can't wait, i'm planning to cnc it.


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## jharwell354 (Oct 4, 2014)

Good morning everyone. I mounted the base to the garage floor on Thursday night. I had a spot cleaned out for a few weeks anticipating it's arrival but quickly found out that it was not wide enough for the full travel both ways of the X axis. Yesterday afternoon I was able to get the mill on to the base. My wife and two daughters on one side and me on the other. (I will not be taking any chances like that again in the future.) I was able to start the mill last night as it is very quiet. I did speak with Matt on the setup proceedures. He told me to go ahead  and start using it and that he has already run my machine for a bit. no break in necessary. Seems like I should be checking tram though.

I tried to post pics and the choose image button will not engage from my phone. I do have a video of the belt drive on instagram at harwellcarboncustoms. I will go take additional pics and try to load the from my desktop shortly.

Be back in a bit.

Jeff


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## jharwell354 (Oct 4, 2014)




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## brav65 (Oct 4, 2014)

Thanks Jeff it looks great!


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## jharwell354 (Oct 4, 2014)

Well I am officially a PM-25mv assembly specialist now. I set out to tram the head and was trying to figure out how to loosen it so it would rotate. That is when I found two screws, one was a hex and the other was inserted from behind the head when the column sliding mechanism was not installed yet. I did not have the 12mm hex so I went to HB and purchased a metric hex socket set. I had to shorten the length of the hex socket on my belt grinder so the ratchet and socket would fit in the area where these screws are located. Then I used a dial indicator from HB and proceeded to tram the machine and was successful within a couple of thousandths. I was able to tighten the head hex screw to a snug position, no problem. Proceeded to tighten the nut on the bolt that was inserted from behind the whole mechanism and turned it a couple of quarter turns and noticed I was not making any progress. I took off the nut and the bolt was stripped severely. So I had to take the whole head off so I could take the bad bolt out and insert a new bolt from behind the sliding column mechanism. What a pain. I could have put a couple more washers on the bolt so a new nut would secure to the non-stripped area of the threads but I was never going to be able to live with that. Well it all worked out because now I know how this thing works. The head is trammed within 2 thousandths on the X axis. The Y axis is out of whack a good bit. Hoss has a vid on shimming the Y axis but that is not possible with this config. The column cannot be removed from the foot of the machine like the G0704 in the video. It worked out because now I know a lot more about the machine. I can tram it in a matter of minutes now!

If anyone know how to tram the Y axis on this version of the PM-25mv please share.

Thanks,
Jeff


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## GA Gyro (Oct 4, 2014)

jharwell354 said:


> Well I am officially a PM-25mv assembly specialist now. I set out to tram the head and was trying to figure out how to loosen it so it would rotate. That is when I found two screws, one was a hex and the other was inserted from behind the head when the column sliding mechanism was not installed yet. I did not have the 12mm hex so I went to HB and purchased a metric hex socket set. I had to shorten the length of the hex socket on my belt grinder so the ratchet and socket would fit in the area where these screws are located. Then I used a dial indicator from HB and proceeded to tram the machine and was successful within a couple of thousandths. I was able to tighten the head hex screw to a snug position, no problem. Proceeded to tighten the nut on the bolt that was inserted from behind the whole mechanism and turned it a couple of quarter turns and noticed I was not making any progress. I took off the nut and the bolt was stripped severely. So I had to take the whole head off so I could take the bad bolt out and insert a new bolt from behind the sliding column mechanism. What a pain. I could have put a couple more washers on the bolt so a new nut would secure to the non-stripped area of the threads but I was never going to be able to live with that. Well it all worked out because now I know how this thing works. The head is trammed within 2 thousandths on the X axis. The Y axis is out of whack a good bit. Hoss has a vid on shimming the Y axis but that is not possible with this config. *The column cannot be removed from the foot of the machine *like the G0704 in the video. It worked out because now I know a lot more about the machine. I can tram it in a matter of minutes now!
> 
> If anyone know how to tram the Y axis on this version of the PM-25mv please share.
> 
> ...



I have not seen a PM25... so asking:  On the PM45/932, the column is mounted to the base with 4 bolts... loosen and shim under to tram the Y axis is the procedure I have read about... Is this not possible on the PM25?  Just curious, since I have not seen one of them.


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## BobDBob (Oct 7, 2014)

Hello Everyone

My PM25 arrived yesterday.  Nothing short of a superb experience with R&L Carriers who QMT used to ship my mill.  The driver was awesome and the crate/mill sustained zero damage.  The first issue I'm dealing with is that the specs on QMT's website claims the table T-slots are 1/2" when in fact mine are 12mm.  In anticipation and getting tool'd up, I purchased a 1/2" clamping kit and am now grinding T-nuts to fit.  Not a big deal and once my vice is mounted, milling the remaining T-nuts to size will be an excellent first project.  My mill is still in the crate and sorry no pics yet (my camera sucketh greatly).  I am quite pleased with what I've seen so far and I did run it and it is REALLY quiet !

Bob


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## brav65 (Oct 7, 2014)

Congrats Bob!  Mine is two days away!  I purchased 1/2" clamping set as well, so I will be in the same boat.:thumbzup3::thumbzup3:



BobDBob said:


> Hello Everyone
> 
> My PM25 arrived yesterday.  Nothing short of a superb experience with R&L Carriers who QMT used to ship my mill.  The driver was awesome and the crate/mill sustained zero damage.  The first issue I'm dealing with is that the specs on QMT's website claims the table T-slots are 1/2" when in fact mine are 12mm.  In anticipation and getting tool'd up, I purchased a 1/2" clamping kit and am now grinding T-nuts to fit.  Not a big deal and once my vice is mounted, milling the remaining T-nuts to size will be an excellent first project.  My mill is still in the crate and sorry no pics yet (my camera sucketh greatly).  I am quite pleased with what I've seen so far and I did run it and it is REALLY quiet !
> 
> Bob


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## BobDBob (Oct 7, 2014)

Hey Brooks

Another solution to the T-nut issue would be to order some of these: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1269&category=

Bob


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## brav65 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks Bob I am going to try and mill mine down with my new mill.


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## orphan auto (Oct 15, 2014)

JayBob said:


> I'm considering it...
> 
> I've got some money saved up, and I'm currently stuck between buying a mill, or buying a 2-post auto lift.  I've wanted to have a lift forever, but on the other hand, I've been wanting a mill for a long time too.  The mill could potentially make me some money though, so I don't know.  I'm torn...



Lift then mill, that way you'll know what the vehicle needs, then you can make the parts needed.  I love my lift!


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## JohnJohn301 (Dec 2, 2014)

jharwell354 said:


> Well I am officially a PM-25mv assembly specialist now. I set out to tram the head...
> Proceeded to tighten the nut on the bolt that was inserted from behind the whole mechanism and turned it a couple of quarter turns and noticed I was not making any progress. I took off the nut and the bolt was stripped severely.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jeff



Just found mine to be stripped too. I'm more than a little angry over it. Had just gotten my new PM25MV dialed in. Now I have to pull the head off to replace this crappy bolt.  Grrrrrrrr


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## brav65 (Dec 2, 2014)

JohnJohn301 said:


> Just found mine to be stripped too. I'm more than a little angry over it. Had just gotten my new PM25MV dialed in. Now I have to pull the head off to replace this crappy bolt.  Grrrrrrrr




Mine was stripped as well, The bolt is the same one provided in the tool kit as a hold down.  I discovered this after I fabricated my own bolt by welding a washer on to a hex head bolt and grinding/filing it to the correct profile.  Now my RPM readout is not working.  I have to pull the drive pulley off, but it is not coming off after loosening the set screw.  I may upgrade my bearings while I have it apart as they are not expensive and given the amount of gunk down inside the spindle they are probably not going to last that long.  Any advice on removing the drive pulley and disassembling the spindle would be appreciated.


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## JohnJohn301 (Dec 8, 2014)

Bought some stainless and did the three bolt mod while I had the head off.  Really like the results.  Mill head is a ton more solid.


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