# Whole Shop And Machine-specific Help For Dunce



## markamerica

Hi everybody! Here's the link to my thread in the beginner's section in which I purchased a lathe. This should provide some reference as to what's gone on to date.  To start, I guess I should state what my shop's electrical status is.  Years ago, when we moved to our property, there was nothing more than a water meter out at the edge of the right-of-way.  Everything we needed, we would have to build/buy. We threw a no frills double-wide on the property, and to hook it up to electric, it was going to require Oncor to install three poles across my pasture.  That was going to cost, but one pole was "free" because they had to hop the highway, so that was covered, and then the second one was covered by the new service account(they were willing to add one "free" with a new account.)  Since that would mean I'd have to buy a pole, and since we were leveraged to the hilt at the time, (still owning our old home, which we shortly thereafter sold,) and since we had poured so much into building fences, putting in thousands of feet of water line, to service the house and the horse pastures, I had to come up with an idea.  The thing was, I said: "We want two service accounts. One for the house, and one for the barn we're going to build." That got us the "entitlement" in their system to get that third pole "free." For a long while, it powered a yard security light. Then, sick of paying the service fee for the second account, my wife discontinued service.  When we built the barn, we got to that point where we were out of money to go further, which included things like enclosing my workshop, and a storage area.  I had installed a load center, wired it up to the little service pole in the barnyard with a safety disconnect and a meter base. Unfortunately, the limitations will always be single phase.  I can't get 3 phase, any flavor, so this has created a problem. 

I'm going to need to buy a phase converter.  I've read all sorts of opinions on the issue, and I have at least a grasp of the issues involved.  Here's the deal: The lathe I just purchased has a 15HP motor. Whether the motor turns out to be bad and a replacement is necessitated, I'd just as soon anticipate the 15HP-class electrical load. Eventually, I expect there will be a 3 phase air compressor, and a 3 phase milling machine, in addition to this. I can't think of anything else (at least for the moment) for which I'll need 3 phase. Maybe someday, a surface grinder??? 

I have another problem, which is back when I installed the load center, and etc, I basically went with the cheapest thing I could get away with.  100amp meter base, 100amp safety switch, and 100amp load center.

That was a mistake.  I should have just spent the extra dough at the time and bought 200amp equipment.  Since I knew I wouldn't be wiring anything up immediately anyway, I went with the cheapest I could to get what I needed.  

Enter the 3 phase discussion.  I've been looking at Rotary Phase Converters.  Based on what I have to spend, and what I have to power, I'm thinking this is my best bet.  For the class I'm looking at, a 60 amp single phase requirement is needed.  So you see my dilemma: That will already suck up 60% of the capacity of my load center, etc.  So what I'm thinking about is changing out to 200amp gear, now, before it gets harder to do...  

Thoughts?

Thanks!


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## markamerica

The other issue in this thread revolves around the lathe I've purchased. It's a 1979 Martin DLZ, and its electrical is either absent or shot.  Basically, I'm going to need a new enclosure, a new motor, new switches, new wiring, and new everything...  So where to start... Let's assume that I will need a new motor.  Looks like a 254t frame 15hp motor should do the job.  (As near as I can tell, this is what the existing, probably bad, motor is...)  The single difference is that the existing motor, the end of the shaft is threaded for a screw of 5/8" diameter.  I haven't pulled the belts and all just yet, but I'm wondering: If that's the mechanism for holding the pulley on, I don't find motors with threaded shafts. They all just seem to have a center... No threads.  Ideas about this?  Can I get a different pulley and secure it by other means?  Thoughts?

Thanks!

Mark


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## JimDawson

Consider that the RPC will only draw a fraction of its motor's rated current when running.  The starting load is pretty high but in some cases the power factor correction may actually cause your electric meter to run backwards when it's idling.  Also concider that the lathe will be pretty much idling most of the time also, it rarely will be anywhere close to running full load.

The first thing I would do is run the lathe motor over to your local motor shop and get it checked out.

As far as pulleys go, I like the various taper lock types.  Available from many vendors



The threaded shaft is somewhat common on European motors, I have seen it before.  You will just have to take a good look to see how the pulley is attached.


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## TakeDeadAim

Well a couple things,  I agree with Jim in that most of those large frame motors can be re-furbished for much less than replacement.  We used to re-furbish most if not all the motors rather than replace them and these were on macines wore out to the point of needing ways re-surfaced, lead screws re-cut or nuts made to fit. so before I gave up on what you have I would have it looked at.  As far as phase converters I would contact the people at American Rotary, they are near me and I know several people who use their product with good results and they offer free tech support to help you figure out what you need.  Once you determine how much power you need for your converter, its then determining how many large draw machines will run at one time and then adding your load for wall sockets and lighting to determine your total need.  I am not an electrician but that is exactly what a friend, who is one, did for me to determine what I needed to put in my shop.  Remember a big panel can always have more power run to it, changing out the panels is a project that takes time which =$ if your paying someone.

https://www.americanrotary.com/


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## markamerica

Jim,

Yes, I was looking at pulleys like that last night on ebay.  By the way, people will notice I mention ebay a lot. The reason is because sometimes, I'm in an area a bit over my head, and ebay helps educate me. They have almost "one of everything" in the broadest sense, meaning when I'm trying to figure out the proper name for a thing, or the proper thing in any respect, as a searchable database for all sorts of things, it's actually a good way to figure out what I need. 

As for the RPC, you're quite right, based on my reading.  I find that if I get an RPC of the right size, so long as I'm not starting multiple pieces of equipment simultaneously, but merely running them simultaneously, the RPC I need is a good deal more economical.  I'm looking at a 20hp unit that will start up to a single 20hp device, but in the aggregate, can run up to 60hp of equipment.  It's PROBABLY more than I'll ever need, but you already know my thinking on that.  I know I'm going into this with a 15hp motor, so I'm giving myself a smidge of excess capacity.

TakeDeadAim,  Thanks!  American Rotary is one of the brands I've been looking at. Back when we built the barn, I was going to be happy to have basic power to it. Over time, it became clear that I'd need to rethink some of this before putting another $1 into it, precisely because it's a lot harder to add capacity later.  So that's why I'm looking at it, and doing a real budget on what maximal loading I'm apt to ever want.  When I start adding things up, light, etc, standard 20 amp wall outlets, yada yada, it adds up fast.  Good news is that there's only so many things I can do/run at once.  That's the natural limiter for me.  

Thanks!

Mark


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## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> The single difference is that the existing motor, the end of the shaft is threaded for a screw of 5/8" diameter. I haven't pulled the belts and all just yet, but I'm wondering: If that's the mechanism for holding the pulley on, I don't find motors with threaded shafts.


Do you mean that the end of the shaft is drilled and tapped for a 5/8" screw or that the shaft itself is threaded?


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## JimDawson

My shop is supplied by a 50 Amp breaker to the sub panel.  It has 14 20 Amp quad outlets, my router system (4.8KW), 5HP air compressor, mill (3 HP), lathe (3HP), 300 amp welder, and all the other stuff.  Obviously if I fired everything off at the same time the main breaker would trip.  But there is only one of me and I can only run one machine at a time, or sometime two.  The base load in the shop is about 3 amps, from the battery chargers, idling VFDs, small refrigerator, and other small stuff. All of the lighting combined is about 10 amps, but I normally only turn lights on in the area that I'm working.

What I'm saying here is you don't have to supply power the the shop with the idea of loading up everything to the max.  With a 100 amp service you should get along fine unless you are planning on running a full production shop.


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## markamerica

J


John Hasler said:


> Do you mean that the end of the shaft is drilled and tapped for a 5/8" screw or that the shaft itself is threaded?


Sorry, more clarity on my part. Of just a quickie measurement, the shaft seems to be 1-5/8 OD, or something very close to that. It is threaded, for what appears to be a 5/8 threaded screw. 

Thanks John!


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> My shop is supplied by a 50 Amp breaker to the sub panel.  It has 14 20 Amp quad outlets, my router system (4.8KW), 5HP air compressor, mill (3 HP), lathe (3HP), 300 amp welder, and all the other stuff.  Obviously if I fired everything off at the same time the main breaker would trip.  But there is only one of me and I can only run one machine at a time, or sometime two.  The base load in the shop is about 3 amps, from the battery chargers, idling VFDs, small refrigerator, and other small stuff. All of the lighting combined is about 10 amps, but I normally only turn lights on in the area that I'm working.
> 
> What I'm saying here is you don't have to supply power the the shop with the idea of loading up everything to the max.  With a 100 amp service you should get along fine unless you are planning on running a full production shop.



Jim, I agree with your general notion. In general, I can only be in one place doing one thing at a time. I tend to think of the other things, more passive, like the fridge, the dehumidifier in the feed and store room, the a/c in my workshop, the computer that will be there(so I can watch all those nifty how-to videos as I try new things) the air compressor kicking on, the barnyard security light at dusk and beyond, horse stall lights, that may be on as we observe a sick horse or an overdue mare, and all the other things that will go on in the barn over which I'll have less than perfect control as to the timing.  I guess if you want to think about me and just a small workshop, you're bang-on correct. Problem is that while my workshop will probably represent 80% or more of the average power consumption in the whole structure, there will inevitably be times when that proportion will shift markedly.  One of the hindsight shortfalls of this rinky-dinky shack, aka double wide, we purchased when we bought the land etc, is that it is grossly under-provisioned in the electrical department. 

Found that out when I started setting up my old school stereo equipment in the living room: Too few circuits shared across too many outlets and found that my stereo, combined with the oven, the drier, and the a/c along with a few lights and other odds and ends could really put us in a hurt. Anyway, that convinced me that excess capacity is good, and lacking any headroom can be quite the bother. 

Now in truth, I expect it might cause me a few headaches from time to time if I stick with the 100 amp setup, but most of the time, probably 99%, it wouldn't be a problem. It's just that the 1% always seems to occur at the most unopportune times. Story of my life.

But you're probably right.

Thanks!
Mark


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## Tony Wells

Did they hang a pig on the barn pole just for it? If so they may need to resize it for heavier service. I think I would simply get a 200 amp meter socket/base, a fused disconnect (outdoor, the fire dept will thank you for that, seriously), and a load center capable of handling whatever heavy single phase circuits you want to add new, including the entire 3 phase panel. You can then dedicate a larger breaker to the single phase sub panel that is already there and presumably wired into some circuits in the barn. That way not much of the old work will need to be disturbed. 

When you run the single phase power to the rotary converter, you then can build a dedicated 3 phase load center that handles only the machinery that runs on 3 phase. Start the converter, and all your machines will be ready to go. And don't ever figure on all of then either starting or running at the same time. Unless you hire a crew and crack a whip. If it's just you and your personal shop, the dollar math can't justify the cost to figure 100% current draw. No one does that even in the commercial world that I know of.

I'm sure some of our resident real electricians will find an error in my methods, and that's fine. That's why we are crowdsourcing this information. It won't hurt my feelings any. I know electric work enough to do it, I feel safely, but perhaps not in total compliance with code in every instance. I don't make nor have I every made my living doing it. Just been around it, and done it quite a bit.


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## John Hasler

> I have another problem, which is back when I installed the load center, and etc, I basically went with the cheapest thing I could get away with.  100amp meter base, 100amp safety switch, and 100amp load center.
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks!


I have a farm much like yours.  I run the whole place (including an indoor arena) through a 100A main breaker with no problems.  100A equipment will handle the starting transients of your motors without difficulty.


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## John Hasler

Tony Wells said:


> Did they hang a pig on the barn pole just for it? If so they may need to resize it for heavier service. I think I would simply get a 200 amp meter socket/base, a fused disconnect (outdoor, the fire dept will thank you for that, seriously),


Most utilites no longer install anything less than a 200A service.  The firemen often just pull the meter even when there is a switch right next to it (it should be there anyway, though).


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## markamerica

Tony Wells said:


> Did they hang a pig on the barn pole just for it? If so they may need to resize it for heavier service. I think I would simply get a 200 amp meter socket/base, a fused disconnect (outdoor, the fire dept will thank you for that, seriously), and a load center capable of handling whatever heavy single phase circuits you want to add new, including the entire 3 phase panel. You can then dedicate a larger breaker to the single phase sub panel that is already there and presumably wired into some circuits in the barn. That way not much of the old work will need to be disturbed.
> 
> When you run the single phase power to the rotary converter, you then can build a dedicated 3 phase load center that handles only the machinery that runs on 3 phase. Start the converter, and all your machines will be ready to go. And don't ever figure on all of then either starting or running at the same time. Unless you hire a crew and crack a whip. If it's just you and your personal shop, the dollar math can't justify the cost to figure 100% current draw. No one does that even in the commercial world that I know of.
> 
> I'm sure some of our resident real electricians will find an error in my methods, and that's fine. That's why we are crowdsourcing this information. It won't hurt my feelings any. I know electric work enough to do it, I feel safely, but perhaps not in total compliance with code in every instance. I don't make nor have I every made my living doing it. Just been around it, and done it quite a bit.


Tony, I always install a disconnect at the pole. There's one now, but it's 100amp. 

As far as a 3-phase sub panel, that was my thinking. I'd like to distribute 3-phase to 5 locations, maybe 6. Lathe, milling machine, air compressor, two others inside the workshop, and one in the central aisle way outside the workshop. 

As far as planning for 100%, I agree with both you and Jim that would be silly. Would be a lot of waste in that. 

As for being an electrician, I'm not one obviously, but over the years, I've managed with some instruction and research, to get done 99.9% of what we've needed done. 

I confess that part of my worries that drive me towards thinking about max loads is born of the paranoia my paying job foments in my thinking. When I began work there a decade ago, they'd put in electrical capacity that was insufficient. With the growth of reliance on technology, they had a real problem already. They were running into capacity-related problems when I started there. I issued warnings to the uppers until one day, in a bad situation, we tripped one of the panels and about a dozen workstations, a couple dozen servers, and various other equipment suddenly went dead. There was some data loss. It was a mess.  THEN and only then did they listen. Since then, they've listened more. So we've had a couple of upgrades since. Point is, I admit that the situation I encountered there biases my thinking quite a bit. 

So you and Jim are absolutely right. Still, there's always that little voice hollering at me: "Hey, remember when..." While what we do at work is infinitely more important than what will ever go on in my barn's workshop, the place tends to make a 24x7 worry-wart out of me, and it bleeds over to personal endeavors some.  That's all.

Everything you and Jim have said on the matter is perfectly reasonable. 

Now, back to something you said, any suggestions on a reasonably priced 3-phase sub panel, for distributing the output of the phase converter? Whatever else I do, that seems the smart way to go.

Thanks!

Mark


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## markamerica

John Hasler said:


> Most utilites no longer install anything less than a 200A service.  The firemen often just pull the meter even when there is a switch right next to it (it should be there anyway, though).


Yep, I know this to be the case.


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## markamerica

John Hasler said:


> I have a farm much like yours.  I run the whole place (including an indoor arena) through a 100A main breaker with no problems.  100A equipment will handle the starting transients of your motors without difficulty.



John, I'm sure that you and Tony and Jim are right. Like I explained to Tony, above, a lot of this is born of being a professional paranoid who is tasked with worst-case scenario planning. It's a little hard to shut off sometimes.

Thanks!

Mark


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## markamerica

So a little update is in order.  After looking at things, and thinking about the size of my shop, and so on, we've decided to expand the footprint of my shop.  Part of that is the recent acquisition of the Martin DLZ lathe.  Part of it is that it was always going to be a little "tight" with all my stuff.  The addition of the DLZ will turn "tight" into "squeaky." After talking it over with my missus, we've agreed that I'll need more floor space.  Our barn is 81" x 44.5".  The idea was, originally, to have a 12' center aisle, end-to-end, so that I could haul straight through with trailers etc when putting up hay and so on, or whatever. The barn was built in such a way that you could think of it as 10 16'x16' stalls, five on either side of the center aisle, and we put concrete down on the far east end, under the two end stalls and the portion of the aisle between them. The idea was that I would enclose those two stalls, one as storage, and one as my workshop.  What we've decided to do, with respect to my workshop, is to expand into the adjacent stall space.  So now it will be 16x32. All I have to do is pour the additional slab.  So my project took a slight turn here. 

Now while I work on all of that, I want to start work on the lathe electrics.  Basically, at present, I've got very little electrical left remaining on the lathe.  I've got a motor of unknown serviceability, and I've got some start/stop buttons on the front panel, and darned little else.  I'm going to pull the motor and take it to a shop to have them check it out. If it's toast, I'll ask them how much to repair it. If not, I'll buy a new one.  In the mean time, I guess I need to figure out what other components I'm going to need.  Not being familiar with 3 phase motor operation, but wanting very much to learn, I want to start gathering the bits and pieces I'll need.  Assume for the moment that one way or the other, I will have a 3 phase 15 hp motor, old, repaired, or new. It will be around 1750-1800rpm.  I will have to provide circuits for starting, stopping, and also an accessory lamp socket, and an accessory coolant pump socket.  There is also the matter of the e-stop.  I've been told that this lathe was originally equipped with an electromagnetic brake.  Not sure if/how that works, will need to investigate.  What are the basic components I'll need to start and stop, and provide 110/120 accessory sockets?  What components to make the motor run?  I'm going to need to buy an enclosure, and I'll probably need some sort of fusible disconnect at the machine.  

Also, speaking of all of this, I had a question about sockets for 3-phase.  I'm going to wind up buying a Rotary Phase Converter to provide 3 phase 220v power to at least 4 locations in the shop. (Perhaps 5).  What I need to know about doing this, apart from a couple of questions about enclosures, is are there good, reliable, perhaps not "waterproof" but some sort of socket and plug combination I can use for this without breaking the bank?  I'd like to mount some kind of socket at the 4-5 locations that has a safety cover for when nothing is plugged in, and a socket type that would be somewhat protected from a splash or similar (not immersion) when something IS plugged into the socket.  Now in one case, the compressor location, I'll probably just wire that in and put a disconnect there. With other locations though, I'd like to be able to plug a machine in, and unplug it and move it if needed. I just want some sort of safer socket. Ideas?

For that matter, I'd like to find something similar for my single-phase 220 equipment.  I'm sure somewhere there exists a standard on this sort of thing, but I'm not really aware of it.  Open to suggestions all around.

Thanks!

Mark


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## JimDawson

Let's start with the power distribution.  I would come off of the RPC to a 3 phase distribution panel, each circuit with it's own breaker.  I would run everything in conduit on the surface, that way it's easy to add to and change later.  In my shop everything but the original plugs is surface mounted, including the breaker panel.  All stranded wire.  Standardize your 3 phase wire colors so you know which is the manufactured leg through the whole system.  I would use Purple, Orange, Yellow.  On wire sizes larger than 10, you may have to get Black wire, and identify the ends with colored tape.  Save Black, Red, White for the single phase system.  Green of course is ground in all cases.

As far as outlets, standard 30 or 50 amp, 4 pole, range or dryer outlets, but enclosed in a NEMA 3R box, like RV outlets.  All of this except the 3 phase panel and breakers is available at any local big box store.

For the lathe power, you need a motor starter large enough to handle the 15 HP motor.  That consists of a contactor and an overload relay.  Make sure the motor starter has auxiliary contacts for the seal in circuit.  You will also need a control transformer, this transforms the 240 to 120 for the control wiring.  The existing start & stop buttons should work fine.  If you want to add an E-stop button, just wire it in series with the stop button.  You could eliminate the need for the control transformer if you use a 240V coil in the motor starter and run the buttons at full voltage. 

Check with the motor rebuild guys, they may have some used stuff kicking around, a new motor starter that large is going to run about $300 for an IEC starter or about twice that for a NEMA rated starter.

For the coolant pump and lamp you could also bring in a Neutral and just run those off of 120V.  You could also run the controls off of that also.

I would probably hard wire the lathe into the disconnect on the wall rather than plugging it in, it's not really portable

When you get a bit farther into it, we'll help spec out that exact hardware.


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Let's start with the power distribution.  I would come off of the RPC to a 3 phase distribution panel, each circuit with it's own breaker.  I would run everything in conduit on the surface, that way it's easy to add to and change later.  In my shop everything but the original plugs is surface mounted, including the breaker panel.  All stranded wire.  Standardize your 3 phase wire colors so you know which is the manufactured leg through the whole system.  I would use Purple, Orange, Yellow.  On wire sizes larger than 10, you may have to get Black wire, and identify the ends with colored tape.  Save Black, Red, White for the single phase system.  Green of course is ground in all cases.
> 
> As far as outlets, standard 30 or 50 amp, 4 pole, range or dryer outlets, but enclosed in a NEMA 3R box, like RV outlets.  All of this except the 3 phase panel and breakers is available at any local big box store.
> 
> For the lathe power, you need a motor starter large enough to handle the 15 HP motor.  That consists of a contactor and an overload relay.  Make sure the motor starter has auxiliary contacts for the seal in circuit.  You will also need a control transformer, this transforms the 240 to 120 for the control wiring.  The existing start & stop buttons should work fine.  If you want to add an E-stop button, just wire it in series with the stop button.  You could eliminate the need for the control transformer if you use a 240V coil in the motor starter and run the buttons at full voltage.
> 
> Check with the motor rebuild guys, they may have some used stuff kicking around, a new motor starter that large is going to run about $300 for an IEC starter or about twice that for a NEMA rated starter.
> 
> For the coolant pump and lamp you could also bring in a Neutral and just run those off of 120V.  You could also run the controls off of that also.
> 
> I would probably hard wire the lathe into the disconnect on the wall rather than plugging it in, it's not really portable
> 
> When you get a bit farther into it, we'll help spec out that exact hardware.



Jim,
Thank you. Right now, following your general idea of surface-mounting conduit was my plan, and for the reasons you mentioned. So, just for general flow in my basic thinking, I want to come off a breaker in my existing single phase load center to the RPC panel. From the RPC, I want to go into a 3 phase panel with individual breakers. From there, I want to send it out to (fused)disconnect boxes at the respective outlets/machines, correct so far? The RPC I was looking at recommends a 60 amp single phase breaker to power the RPC. That RPC will start a 20HP motor, or sustain up to 60hp of running equipment, allegedly. That should be all the 3 phase I'll ever need, even if the compressor is kicking on while I've got the lathe and mill running simultaneously.  (Or am I mis-thinking here?) 

Outlets will be the thing where I'll want to exercise care. I'm a big safety advocate, and I tend to think not so much about me(because if I built it and installed it, I should danged-well have some idea what I'm doing,) but because I think about down the road, when the granddaughter is running all over creation, and how I make all of that as safe as I can. I worry not so much about what's in the shop, but more about the single phase 30 amp and 3 phase outlets I want to locate for convenience's sake in the aisle section. I suppose I could place them in a lockable panel to prevent something unforeseen. It's not like the kiddo will be unattended in the shop anyway. Probably won't be permitted in there until she's a teenager.  I just know how quickly things go awry with kids... And while you can prohibit access, you can't be there and watch everything 24x7x52, so I tend to think about what happens when I'm not around, or not looking. It's that professional/parental paranoid talking here.

I will definitely want to use a transformer to drop to 120v for the control circuits. That's the safest way to go, and as I said above, I'm all about safety.  Talk to me about motor starters. I'm accustomed to start and run capacitors in single phase equipment, like my single phase compressor, my A/C system, and a number of other things, but I'm less clear on this "starter" business with 3 phase motors, and I'm wanting to learn. The machine has what appears to be an e-stop button(although it looks fairly ad hoc, as something either added for import in compliance with OSHA regs, or something added by the original customer for the same reason, but it's just got that look of something that got "tacked on" well after the machine was designed.) It may be that since the DLZ family was coming to an end at the time, that this way the factory's approach to complying with some reg or other to get them through the production run. Have a look:




In any event, I don't know how it worked originally, and since most of the wiring is absent from this beast, I'm not positive what I should do with it. Here's a picture of the push-button switches and the run light socket(far right):



The pump switch and the lamp switch are busted from playing with them, the lamp socket is missing its lens. The two important switches seem to be complete.

There's not much else electrical-related remaining on the machine, excepting the motor itself, and that one device that looks like a relay/contactor of some sort. It's under a cover on the back of the headstock pedestal:


The only other electrical items on the machine I've identified are the socket on the back of the middle pedestal apparently for a cooling pump, and another device I found discarded laying on the end of the headstock pedestal when I removed the sheet metal cap to look at the pulleys. It was just laying there, and I don't know if its a part of this lathe, but somehow, I suspect it might be some sort of actuator having to do with the aforementioned "electromagnetic brake." That's strictly a guess, but it's got an electrical box with contacts of some sort inside, it has what looks like a plunger of some sort, and its oily, making me think it used to live inside the gearbox. Heck, it may be something else. It could be some sort of device to sense the RPM since this model was originally equipped with a spindle tachometer of some sort, though absent. Not sure. I'll grab some pictures later and post them. Maybe you guys will know.

I guess the thing is that once I have this thing offloaded and parked in the aisle, I have a little while as the new concrete work and construction goes on. I'll make time for some cleaning, and so on, in and amongst all the other doings in the barn. Oh, and one other question, unrelated to electrical... This beast has about four different shades of paint on it from over the years. What do you guys recommend for stripping the paint away? If I'm going to go through all this, I'd like it to at least not look like a wreck. I want to clean it up anyway. So I'll do a paint job on it. But the paint is chipping off in hunks in places, and it's really in need of some work. Recommendations?

Thanks!

Mark


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## 4GSR

Mark, I have a size 2 A-B starter here with your name on it.  Also have a control xformer and an assortment of push buttons you can have your pick from here too.  Price is very reasonable.  I like to eat!!!  So buy me lunch and the deal is made!  All you have to do is get you an enclosure.  I probably have other electrical goodies here from past hookups you can have too for food.
Jim mentioned using the four pole "dryer" plugs for 3-phase power hookups.  That's not a good idea in my opinion.  I would suggest buying true NEMA L15-30 standard plugs, either in twist lock or straight blade.  These are for 240V 3-phase service.  This will also make your insurance company happier too.  Ken


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## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> I suppose I could place them in a lockable panel to prevent something unforeseen. It's not like the kiddo will be unattended in the shop anyway.



Just turn the breaker(s) off to the one(s) you're not using.  Lock-out plug covers are available also, very common industrial safety equipment.  You were also talking about NEMA 3R or 4 enclosures for water resistance, most of those have lockable covers.

An example of the cover I'm talking about (but not the receptacle inside) Note the locking hole on the right side.  This is one type of RV outlet






markamerica said:


> That RPC will start a 20HP motor, or sustain up to 60hp of running equipment, allegedly. That should be all the 3 phase I'll ever need, even if the compressor is kicking on while I've got the lathe and mill running simultaneously. (Or am I mis-thinking here?)



As you bring more motors on line, they add together.  So the RPC + the Lathe would give you 45 HP of RPC.  No problem.



markamerica said:


> There's not much else electrical-related remaining on the machine, excepting the motor itself, and that one device that looks like a relay/contactor of some sort. It's under a cover on the back of the headstock pedestal:



Sorry that picture is so blurry that I can't tell what I am looking at.

Going to need pictures for the rest of it.


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Mark, I have a size 2 A-B starter here with your name on it.  Also have a control xformer and an assortment of push buttons you can have your pick from here too.  Price is very reasonable.  I like to eat!!!  So buy me lunch and the deal is made!  All you have to do is get you an enclosure.  I probably have other electrical goodies here from past hookups you can have too for food.
> Jim mentioned using the four pole "dryer" plugs for 3-phase power hookups.  That's not a good idea in my opinion.  I would suggest buying true NEMA L15-30 standard plugs, either in twist lock or straight blade.  These are for 240V 3-phase service.  This will also make your insurance company happier too.  Ken


Ken,
I'm happy to oblige. I'll get with you shortly. 
And I'll do what it takes to keep the insurance folk happy.

I like that idea.

Mark


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Just turn the breaker(s) off to the one(s) you're not using.  Lock-out plug covers are available also, very common industrial safety equipment.  You were also talking about NEMA 3R or 4 enclosures for water resistance, most of those have lockable covers.
> 
> An example of the cover I'm talking about (but not the receptacle inside) Note the locking hole on the right side.  This is one type of RV outlet
> 
> View attachment 136861
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you bring more motors on line, they add together.  So the RPC + the Lathe would give you 45 HP of RPC.  No problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry that picture is so blurry that I can't tell what I am looking at.
> 
> Going to need pictures for the rest of it.


Jim, I'll see if I can get a better picture or two. In the mean time, what the heck is this:



On my computer, these display close to the actual size, maybe a hair bigger than 1:1.
I don't know if this is part of this lathe, or just something that got set aside and wound up being forgotten.

To the left of the adjustable wrench, you can see the cover that goes on it. No screws were anywhere around, so they're gone. 

Any ideas? I can't tell for sure, but it seems like it mounts with the two hole that go through the body, at either end, and the plunger triggers this switch/relay to some purpose.. The fixture to the left in the first picture and to the bottom in the second seems to be the entry point for such wiring as goes in the thing. I didn't want to spend too much time poking around with it until I know what it is, or if it's even likely related to this lathe at all.

Sidebar: Once upon a time, as a young army mechanic, I was tasked with putting something back together that somebody else had disassembled, but had gotten hurt and was off to the hospital. It wasn't a piece of equipment with which I was familiar, but hey, I'll figure it out, right? So I'm looking at the tray the guy has placed all the clamps and hardware into, and studying the thing, and I saw a long socket-head screw, like 3.8" threads, and I looked at it and looked at the thing, and said: "Hmmm. Where does it go?" I pulled out the manual, went through the assembly and disassembly steps in the manual, and then I looked at the parts manual, trying to find that danged screw.  I couldn't find it anywhere in any of the documentation.  I looked at an identical machine, trying to figure out where the heck it went.  I couldn't find it. Wound up calling the hospital when we found out he was going to be fine, a few stitches, some bruising, and the usual Army dose of motrin later, but I asked him: "Hey, there's this long screw, 3/8 threads, about five inches long, socket head, and I can't figure out where it goes...." He laughed and said... "It goes on [something else.] Just happened to be carrying it in my pocket because I saw one missing and thought to replace it, but put it in the tray when I set my keys and other crap down, digging for something else in my pocket." Lesson learned. It might not be anything at all related to the task at hand. 
I was a diligent young fellow though...LOL

By the way, that covered outlet is just the kind of thing I was thinking about. The lock lug is exactly what I'd want.  I'd also probably locate it at roughly eye level for me, only because that would mean it would be some time before it would be in reach of youngsters anyway.

Thanks!
Mark


----------



## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> In the mean time, what the heck is this:



That's a limit switch. It looks like it goes with the lathe, so maybe used as a door safety switch or something.


----------



## Cheeseking

Mark, There are many ways to skin a cat but it sounds like you generally have the right idea.  You might consider a fused safety switch and motor starter as the input to your RPC which then can supply the 3-phase load panel.  As far as disconnect switches at each machine that is good to have but not necessary if you have an accessible cord and receptacle at each since   plug satisfies the disconnect means.   Put the money you save on safety switches toward the motor starter.

Here's my setup.   240V/60A/1P off main panel to 60A fused safety switch to Nema1 starter to 7.5 hp RPC to 240V/30A/3P fused safety switch to 3P main lug only panel.   4 circuits piped to each machine. Bridgeport, Lathe, Surface grinder and Baldor pedestal grinder.   I also have motor starters w/overloads on each machine since the circuit breakers only protect the wires.  Cord connected to outlets via twist lock plugs.  Bit over kill for a basement shop but it was a fun project and ebay finds helped keep costs reasonable.   Electrical stuff is crazy expensive new.


----------



## Cheeseking

Forgot to mention as far as preventing unauthorized access by kids or others, a padlock on the safety switch is an easy solution.   I put one on mine for similar reasons.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> That's a limit switch. It looks like it goes with the lathe, so maybe used as a door safety switch or something.


I'll look around and see if I can figure out where it mounted. The only door on the thing is right there at the headstock end, permitting you to lube without removing the sheet metal cover.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Cheeseking said:


> Mark, There are many ways to skin a cat but it sounds like you generally have the right idea.  You might consider a fused safety switch and motor starter as the input to your RPC which then can supply the 3-phase load panel.  As far as disconnect switches at each machine that is good to have but not necessary if you have an accessible cord and receptacle at each since   plug satisfies the disconnect means.   Put the money you save on safety switches toward the motor starter.
> 
> Here's my setup.   240V/60A/1P off main panel to 60A fused safety switch to Nema1 starter to 7.5 hp RPC to 240V/30A/3P fused safety switch to 3P main lug only panel.   4 circuits piped to each machine. Bridgeport, Lathe, Surface grinder and Baldor pedestal grinder.   I also have motor starters w/overloads on each machine since the circuit breakers only protect the wires.  Cord connected to outlets via twist lock plugs.  Bit over kill for a basement shop but it was a fun project and ebay finds helped keep costs reasonable.   Electrical stuff is crazy expensive new.
> View attachment 136894
> 
> View attachment 136895
> View attachment 136896
> View attachment 136897
> View attachment 136898


Jim, that's really nice and orderly, looks like it was set up with functionality in mind. I like it. Very nice!

What you say about Ebay is true. When I need some 22k mfd caps for one of my amplifiers, I always check there first. Sometimes, I've gotten lucky and picked them up for as little as $5 each, brand new in package, compared to digikey and maybe $40. It's hit or miss, but if you use the alert functions and narrow your search criteria enough, sometimes you get things like that way cheaper than retail. 

Gotten some really good buys over the years that way. Thanks!

Mark


----------



## Keith Foor

Couple ways of dealing with feeding the power to the barn / shop.
If you have a load center in there keep it and add another.  Or tap the feed and run it through a fused disconnect to your RPC.  Then feed the RPC into a 3 phase panel as shown by others.  

Now feeding multiple panels has to be done in a specific way.  And will require a buss bar feed.
A buss bar feed is a 8 by 8 box with 3 copper bars in it that gets fed from a larger disconnect that is also fused back at the house.  
You will need one on the house as well.  Because obviously you can't feed a 200 amp panel off a 100 amp panel.  Inspectors will flip if you do.
So you install a main disconnect that feeds the property from the electrical service pole.
That buss feeds a fused disconnect that feeds the house.  
That buss bar also feeds a second fused disconnect that feeds out to the barn via a buried or areal cable.  
The bar on the barn feeds the two panels in the barn. Or a panel and a disconnect.  If you are using a fused disconect outside to feed a disconnect inside for the RPC specifically, it does not need fused, only the one outside and it can be fused for the load of the RPC and not necessarily 100 or 200 amps as if it were feeding a panel

Now this aint cheap.  But it removes the need for a second service.  Regardless, if you have a 200 amp panel on the house you can't put a 200 amp breaker in it and feed the shop / barn.  So a buss bar system is the way to go.


----------



## markamerica

Keith,  

Thanks! I made a discovery today that makes me think I'm going just a little senile but also that a dozen years or so ago, I had better foresight than I remembered. 

Was out in the barn prepping for the unloading of the lathe, which will happen at around 7:00am tomorrow morning.  Thought to myself, "you know, that load center I installed over there on the wall really looks too big for 100amp panel.

Then I remembered:

Back when we first occupied the property, I installed a second service pole where the barn was planned to go. It wasn't connected to anything, but I put a yard light on it to justify the second hookup and connection to the electric utility, which made them give me the third big pole we needed without cost. (Their rule at the time was that they'd provide one free to hop the highway, and one free per service account, but we needed two to get all the way down the property, so to get that third pole for free, I gamed them a little bit and put up that second service pole with a meter base, a disconnect, and a yard light, which caused them to permit me a second account and give me that third pole free.)

On that third pole is the transformer. From that pole, it was like a Y with the bottom leg being the supply coming in from across the highway, the top left leg going to the service pole at the house, with 100amp service via a meter base and a 100amp disconnect, then underground to beneath my house, and up into the 100amp load center. On the top right leg of the Y going to my prospective barn and yard lamp, and to save money, I put the cheapest 100amp meter base and disconnect on it I could buy, supplying juice only to the yard lamp at the disconnect.

When we actually built the barn, I put in a new service poll since the barn wound up 50feet further away and on a different angle than the original plans I had when we occupied the property. I left the old meter base and disconnect on the old pole right where it was, and had them move the connection onto my new service pole, and where both my senile moment and moment of foresight come in: When I built that second service pole and installed underground from the pole to the barn, and when I bought the barn load center, I purchased ALL 200amp stuff, including the meter base, the disconnect, and the load center.  I just didn't remember this intermediate step, when I abandoned the old service pole in place. The 100amp meter base is still there, but a friend at the time needed the 100amp disconnect for his own purposes, so I gifted it to him.

That's why I had it to give him. Because I'd already bought all 200amp gear for the barn when I actually built it. To reactivate the account now, all they will need to do is install the meter on the base, and I'll have 200amp single phase service, so that cutting out 60amp for my RPC and related actually constitutes  a 30% bite out of my total capacity, and not 60% as I was thinking. This is both great news and terrible news, because it means a dozen years ago, I had more foresight than I can now apparently easily remember.

So, I'll need the 60 amp breaker, a Square D Homeline type, and from there to my RPC, and from there to my 3 phase load center. Game over. So no need to ditch anything for the sake of an upgrade I already accomplished 12 years ago. I just need to add the RPC and the 3-phase load center.

I'll take it as all good news except for the fact that I had to open the panel to remember it. 

Yay me! Did something right for a change! So once I'm wired up, have them reactivate the account, install the meter, and away we go!

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## Cheeseking

Gotta love that.   Kinda like finding a $20 bill in the pocket of a coat you haven't worn since last spring


----------



## markamerica

Cheeseking said:


> Gotta love that.   Kinda like finding a $20 bill in the pocket of a coat you haven't worn since last spring


Amen to that, Cheeseking! In this case, it's more like finding a $100 bill in the pocket of a coat you forgot you owned! LOL
I write it off as one in an increasingly frequent and all too common string of  "senior moments." Getting old[er] sucks. 
Years ago, taught my Great Dane Frisco to bark when I said "speak" and then to howl when I said "sing." Later, around his fifth year, I was full into middle age and feeling it. He was always a vocally expressive dog with the full range of barks and howls and murmurs and whines and even what we refer to as "talking." He had one that sounded like a sigh mixed with a low howl, and so when he made that sound, I'd start telling him: "Frisco, getting old sucks." Over time, he associated the two, and I could speak that line and he'd respond accordingly. Over time, he got to where if I repeated it, he'd start out low and build to a sad howl.

He and his brother turned ten in June, and now he's feeling his age, and there seems more sincerity in his response.

You be the judge:






Ignoring that Maggie(the pup) had to stick her butt in the frame, do you get the feeling he means it?

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Well, the lathe is unloaded. Extended his boom in the door, lifted it up off the trailer, spun it around like I wanted it, set it down, and done...  
So no Egyptian-pyramid-builder crap for me, at least for now.

Right machine for the job, eh?

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Cheeseking said:


> Mark, There are many ways to skin a cat but it sounds like you generally have the right idea.  You might consider a fused safety switch and motor starter as the input to your RPC which then can supply the 3-phase load panel.  As far as disconnect switches at each machine that is good to have but not necessary if you have an accessible cord and receptacle at each since   plug satisfies the disconnect means.   Put the money you save on safety switches toward the motor starter.
> 
> Here's my setup.   240V/60A/1P off main panel to 60A fused safety switch to Nema1 starter to 7.5 hp RPC to 240V/30A/3P fused safety switch to 3P main lug only panel.   4 circuits piped to each machine. Bridgeport, Lathe, Surface grinder and Baldor pedestal grinder.   I also have motor starters w/overloads on each machine since the circuit breakers only protect the wires.  Cord connected to outlets via twist lock plugs.  Bit over kill for a basement shop but it was a fun project and ebay finds helped keep costs reasonable.   Electrical stuff is crazy expensive new.
> View attachment 136894
> 
> View attachment 136895
> View attachment 136896
> View attachment 136897
> View attachment 136898


Jim,

So I'm looking around for 3 phase load centers. The idea will be to come off my single phase load center with a 60 amp breaker to my RPC, and then from RPC into 3 phase load center. Does it matter what the main breaker rating is on the 3phase load center? Most of the 3 phase load centers I find are 100amp or 125amp. Will that be okay? 

It's not like my RPC will ever provide that much amperage, no matter what that main breaker in the 3 phase load center is. 

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> Jim,
> 
> So I'm looking around for 3 phase load centers. The idea will be to come off my single phase load center with a 60 amp breaker to my RPC, and then from RPC into 3 phase load center. Does it matter what the main breaker rating is on the 3phase load center? Most of the 3 phase load centers I find are 100amp or 125amp. Will that be okay?
> 
> It's not like my RPC will ever provide that much amperage, no matter what that main breaker in the 3 phase load center is.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


A 100 load center would be fine.  It doesn't necessarily need a main breaker at all.


----------



## markamerica

John Hasler said:


> A 100 load center would be fine.  It doesn't necessarily need a main breaker at all.


John,
Okay, that's what I was thinking, because something happens on the downstream end, the 60amp breaker in the single phase panel upstream should trip, right?

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## Eddyde

markamerica said:


> John,
> Okay, that's what I was thinking, because something happens on the downstream end, the 60amp breaker in the single phase panel upstream should trip, right?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


That would pass the short circuit load through the RPC. IMHO its Better to to have a 3 ph breaker rated at the maximum output of the RCP on the load center.


----------



## markamerica

Eddyde said:


> That would pass the short circuit load through the RPC. IMHO its Better to to have a 3 ph breaker rated at the maximum output of the RCP on the load center.


I see what you're saying. I should protect the RPC on the downstream side... I wonder if, let's say, I bought a 100amp Square D load center, do they make main breaker to replace the 100amp breaker, OR do I put a separate 60amp disconnect between the RPC and the 3 phase load center?

Thanks Eddy!


----------



## Eddyde

Yes, but you should be able to find a smaller panel that has a 60 amp main breaker. If not, you could have a separate single 3 phase breaker box running into a load center without a main breaker.


----------



## markamerica

Eddy, thanks, makes sense. I appreciate the pointer.  

Regards,

Mark


----------



## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> John,
> Okay, that's what I was thinking, because something happens on the downstream end, the 60amp breaker in the single phase panel upstream should trip, right?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


I just meant that you can have a breaker in your load center for each branch circuit (i.e., each machine) but no main breaker.   There's no point in having a load center with no breakers at all.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Standardize your 3 phase wire colors so you know which is the manufactured leg through the whole system.  I would use Purple, Orange, Yellow.  On wire sizes larger than 10, you may have to get Black wire, and identify the ends with colored tape.  Save Black, Red, White for the single phase system.  Green of course is ground in all cases.




Jim,

I was pricing wire, and it dawned on me that I ought to think about the size wire I need.  (On the 3 phase side of things.) I want to break up colors as you suggest, and I'm hunting around to see if I can find colored wires in appropriate sizes.  Should 8AWG be sufficient for the 3-phase distribution? The biggest single load, by far, would be the lathe at around 40amps. Am I okay at 8AWG, or do I need to bump to 6? The RPC I was looking at, they recommended a minimum 8AWG copper for the 60amp single phase supply.  I'm just trying to figure with the 15HP 40amp lathe motor, which will be the single biggest device by a fair bit, whether I ought to do 8AWG there too.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

markamerica said:


> Jim,
> I'm just trying to figure with the 15HP 40amp lathe motor, which will be the single biggest device by a fair bit, whether I ought to do 8AWG there too.


So, I found a nifty calculator. It helped me figure this out.

http://www.paigewire.com/pumpWireCalc.aspx

Cool.


----------



## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> I'm just trying to figure with the 15HP 40amp lathe motor, which will be the single biggest device by a fair bit, whether I ought to do 8AWG there too.



I would use #8 to feed the lathe.


----------



## markamerica

Jim,

Thanks! The thing that's easy to forget is the distance, which is why I like that little calculator linked above. For most household and small power tool items, it's well within the limits of a standard extension cord, but I have a small portable 20gal compressor I keep in the small shed next to the house, runs on 110, but you'd better not plug it in with an extension cord of inferior quality. Won't run and cord will get very hot very quick. 40 amps 60 line-feet from the supply is way different from 20 amps 12 feet from the supply, as are the differences for shortest and longest as well as largest and smallest loads as I lay out my 3 phase plans. 

It's a consideration easy to forget. 

Glad you guys are here to bounce my thinking against. Sometimes just typing it out forces me to slow down, organize my thoughts, and be smarter.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Okay, so let me start down the machine-specific part of this thread again: 

With respect to the lathe, I'm basically a blank slate.  Here's what I need: I need a basic circuit, to begin with, that includes the following:
Transformer to step down from the 230v  3 phase for controls voltage.
Whatever I need with respect to fuses at the machine(in the Hoffman enclosure).
Whatever it takes to start the motor.
Some sort of thermal overload protection.
I'll put a separate disconnect at the machine.
I've obtained a Hoffman enclosure for a song that should be more than sufficient.
(By the way, in the same deal, I also obtained a 3 phase load center that should work just fine for the output side of the phase converter.)

I need to begin sorting out what the actual parts need to be and also what the wiring needs to look like.  I know I'm going to need to replace at least two of the four switches, so I've decided I will replace them all. The e-stop switch also looks like it's been through a war, and the case is cracked and half the button is missing.  So add that to the list.

Got a super deal on a motor. It's on the way.  This motor has a feature that should make that e-stop switch more useful: It's a brake motor.  NOS Reliance 15HP motor with a Stearns self-adjusting, solenoid-actuated brake. The brake is a 1-085-051-00QF.  The manufacturer website is here: http://www.rexnord.com/Products-Ser...rol/PT-Drive-Components/Brakes/Stearns-Brakes. Of course, now I'll have to figure out how to wire it all up, but if it's not one thing, it's another. This particular brake model is covered on pages 17-20 of their catalog: http://www.rexnord.com/ContentItems...tearnsCatalog_Stearns_Full_Stearns_Catalog-pd

Also, looking for a simple circuit diagram for a compressor (3 phase 10 HP).  The compressor I have seems to be missing some stuff.  (It's an Ingersol Rand T30 vertical 120 gal tank, 2-stage with intercooler.) So it looks like I've got more than one to straighten out some. Okay, the lathe is a complete blank slate, but you know what I mean.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## JimDawson

You do realize that the brake is mechanically applied, solenoid release?  Not an impossible situation for wiring, but makes it more interesting.  It does have a mechanical release knob on it.

Before we get too deep into this, I think Ken has a number of bits and pieces as he mentioned earlier.

EDIT:  I'm assuming here that the spindle is mechanical For/Rev

The major components are:

Switches
Control transformer, 200VA should be fine
At least a NEMA size 2 motor starter for the spindle motor, 120V coil
Proper heaters for the motor starter (Need the motor nameplate amps to size)
Relay for the motor brake
Relay or motor starter for the coolant pump (motor starter if it's 3 phase)
Relay for control power
Fusing or breakers for the mains and control circuits
A disconnect switch (fused)
A panel for the enclosure if it doesn't have one
Various pieces of electrical hardware
Here is the basic 3 wire motor starter




I'll whip up something a bit more useful once I know more about the hardware you have.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> You do realize that the brake is mechanically applied, solenoid release?  Not an impossible situation for wiring, but makes it more interesting.  It does have a mechanical release knob on it.
> 
> Before we get too deep into this, I think Ken has a number of bits and pieces as he mentioned earlier.
> 
> EDIT:  I'm assuming here that the spindle is mechanical For/Rev
> 
> The major components are:
> 
> Switches
> Control transformer, 200VA should be fine
> At least a NEMA size 2 motor starter for the spindle motor, 120V coil
> Proper heaters for the motor starter (Need the motor nameplate amps to size)
> Relay for the motor brake
> Relay or motor starter for the coolant pump (motor starter if it's 3 phase)
> Relay for control power
> Fusing or breakers for the mains and control circuits
> A disconnect switch (fused)
> A panel for the enclosure if it doesn't have one
> Various pieces of electrical hardware
> Here is the basic 3 wire motor starter
> 
> View attachment 137514
> 
> 
> I'll whip up something a bit more useful once I know more about the hardware you have.



Jim, Thank you!

Yes, I realize the motor is solenoid-released, manually applied. My understanding would be that this would be useful as an E-Stop brake.  If I've misunderstood, shame on me. I know it has the manual release knob which can be used (I assumed) in a pinch if I needed to run the motor, and say for instance, the solenoid had failed, so that I couldn't electrically release the brake.  Did I misunderstand this?  As for the spindle forward and reverse, yes, manual.

I'm waiting on Ken(but I've urged him not to rush for my sake...I know he's got other things to do, and he's already been exceedingly kind, as have you all, btw, and thank you,) because I'm more than happy to pay for the parts I'll need if he has them. Much rather get them from him if he doesn't need them then from some seller on Ebay or from an electrical parts house if he can spare them. 

As for the motor dataplate, and also the brake dataplate, here you are:



Oh, and here's the motor. Dusty, but still unused and stored in a climate controlled storage room since it was minted:



I will start making the list. 

I'll get a disconnect. The lathe will be hardwired so no need for sockets/plugs on this. You mentioned a fused disconnect specifically. Will 40amps get it here? I know the motor itself is rated at 40amps, but am I going to be drawing the whole smack? Doesn't load on the machine determine that to a fair extent?  I guess I'm asking what my worst-case current demand is going to be with this.  When you say "panel for the enclosure," you mean the add-on back panel? On the shopping list. I guess the ratings on the breakers I'll need for the various circuits will vary.  As far as the pump outlet and lamp outlet this is supposed to have, I'd plan on 110/120v pump and lamp. I won't be buying a giant, heavy duty coolant setup unless I find that I'm really going to need it a lot more than I think I will. I was thinking something more modest. I may even try something more modest to begin with, like Kool Mist, which is air-powered.  Point is, I don't see myself needing a heavy duty 3-phase coolant pump set up. Of course, the way my life goes... Realistically, I'm not going to be working at production pace by a long shot. On the other hand, if you're turning something large and doing many passes... What's your recommendation?  Most of the time, my work on this lathe will skew heavily toward the lower end of its capabilities. I seriously doubt I'll ever approach even half of what it can do.  I'm up for suggestions and advise on this in particular. Lamp is easy... 120v... Just probably a single bulb incandescent type.  Nothing fancy.  Truth is, I'm not wedded to any of these things being built into the lathe because I'll be able to add supporting circuits where I need them. The main thought I have is that the lathe was equipped with these things, so I'd like to maintain them on the lathe if feasible. 

Once we sort out what I'll need, I'll check with Ken on which things he has on hand that he'd be willing to part with.  Then I'll go part-shopping.  Hopefully, you guys will be able to steer me from too much trouble...

Thanks Jim!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

markamerica said:


> Jim, Thank you!
> 
> Yes, I realize the motor is solenoid-released, manually applied. My understanding would be that this would be useful as an E-Stop brake.  If I've misunderstood, shame on me. I know it has the manual release knob which can be used (I assumed) in a pinch if I needed to run the motor, and say for instance, the solenoid had failed, so that I couldn't electrically release the brake.  Did I misunderstand this?  As for the spindle forward and reverse, yes, manual.
> 
> I'm waiting on Ken(but I've urged him not to rush for my sake...I know he's got other things to do, and he's already been exceedingly kind, as have you all, btw, and thank you,) because I'm more than happy to pay for the parts I'll need if he has them. Much rather get them from him if he doesn't need them then from some seller on Ebay or from an electrical parts house if he can spare them.
> 
> As for the motor dataplate, and also the brake dataplate, here you are:
> View attachment 137521
> View attachment 137522
> 
> Oh, and here's the motor. Dusty, but still unused and stored in a climate controlled storage room since it was minted:
> View attachment 137523
> 
> 
> I will start making the list.
> 
> I'll get a disconnect. The lathe will be hardwired so no need for sockets/plugs on this. You mentioned a fused disconnect specifically. Will 40amps get it here? I know the motor itself is rated at 40amps, but am I going to be drawing the whole smack? Doesn't load on the machine determine that to a fair extent?  I guess I'm asking what my worst-case current demand is going to be with this.  When you say "panel for the enclosure," you mean the add-on back panel? On the shopping list. I guess the ratings on the breakers I'll need for the various circuits will vary.  As far as the pump outlet and lamp outlet this is supposed to have, I'd plan on 110/120v pump and lamp. I won't be buying a giant, heavy duty coolant setup unless I find that I'm really going to need it a lot more than I think I will. I was thinking something more modest. I may even try something more modest to begin with, like Kool Mist, which is air-powered.  Point is, I don't see myself needing a heavy duty 3-phase coolant pump set up. Of course, the way my life goes... Realistically, I'm not going to be working at production pace by a long shot. On the other hand, if you're turning something large and doing many passes... What's your recommendation?  Most of the time, my work on this lathe will skew heavily toward the lower end of its capabilities. I seriously doubt I'll ever approach even half of what it can do.  I'm up for suggestions and advise on this in particular. Lamp is easy... 120v... Just probably a single bulb incandescent type.  Nothing fancy.  Truth is, I'm not wedded to any of these things being built into the lathe because I'll be able to add supporting circuits where I need them. The main thought I have is that the lathe was equipped with these things, so I'd like to maintain them on the lathe if feasible.
> 
> Once we sort out what I'll need, I'll check with Ken on which things he has on hand that he'd be willing to part with.  Then I'll go part-shopping.  Hopefully, you guys will be able to steer me from too much trouble...
> 
> Thanks Jim!
> 
> Mark


Oh, while I'm thinking about it... I'm probably going to need a pulley and taper adapter for the reasons I mentioned before.  The OD of the pulley is right about exactly 10", and it is a 3-groove, looks like standard half-inch v-belts to me.

Good source that won't kill me? You've mentioned something on this before, and I'm either nuts or I'm scanning right past it, looking for it.

Thanks!


----------



## 4GSR

Jim,
The control xformer that I have is a .075 KVA. May not be big enough.  It's the only one I have on hand.  The starter is a size 2 AB 709 series I believe.  Mark will need to get three heaters to install.  Current heaters are for 440v.  I have lots of AB push buttons with all sorts of contacts, N/C, N/O.  Als0 have some control relays most 24v and some 120v. And a bunch of Buchanan terminal strips if Mark wants to put a strip in the panel for connecting wires to.  All of this is surplus to my needs, most left over from dad's shop and machine rewires, and going crazy on eBay. 
Jim, if you do a schematic/diagram of the basics of what he needs, I can go by it and say what I have and have not.

 Ken


----------



## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> Much rather get them from him if he doesn't need them then from some seller on Ebay or from an electrical parts house if he can spare them.



I think it's time to introduce you to Automation Direct, my go to vendor.  They have everything you need at reasonable prices.  Not as cheap as ebay, but their service is great and FREE 2 day shipping on most orders.  https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Home/Home



markamerica said:


> I'll get a disconnect. The lathe will be hardwired so no need for sockets/plugs on this. You mentioned a fused disconnect specifically. Will 40amps get it here?



No, You need to fuse for about 70 amps, Time Delay, 250V fuses, This will require a 100 amp disconnect.



markamerica said:


> When you say "panel for the enclosure," you mean the add-on back panel? On the shopping list.



Yup



markamerica said:


> Lamp is easy... 120v... Just probably a single bulb incandescent type.



Consider an LED lamp, it doesn't burn you when you touch the shade.    The panel switch will handle the current for the lamp so no relay required.

Spray mist coolant would be the way I would go.  You could turn this on and off electrically.  



markamerica said:


> I'm probably going to need a pulley and taper adapter for the reasons I mentioned before. The OD of the pulley is right about exactly 10", and it is a 3-groove, looks like standard half-inch v-belts to me.
> Good source that won't kill me? You've mentioned something on this before, and I'm either nuts or I'm scanning right past it, looking for it.



These are my go to guys for power transmission products.  Measure the belt profile and be sure to get the correct groove pulley.  There is a difference between an A and 4L.   Could be Metric also.  
http://www.ametric.com/


----------



## JimDawson

4gsr said:


> Jim, if you do a schematic/diagram of the basics of what he needs, I can go by it and say what I have and have not.



0.075 KVA should do it

I can do that


----------



## JimDawson

I think this should do it.   Change the txt filename extension to DXF

Rather than even bother with a control transformer, we'll just bring in a neutral.


----------



## markamerica

Wow guys, you sure can put things together on the fly! Experience, experience, experience... There is simply no substitute. Okay, so a couple of things. This goes back to my ignorance, and I'm not wanting to side-track the direct discussion here, but a question: I'm going to be installing a 30hp RPC. I'm going to be providing 100amp circuit breaker in my single-phase load center to pass off to the RPC. The RPC will pass that off to a 3-phase load center.  Jim recommends a 100amp disconnect with 70 amp fuses.  The lathe motor says 40 amps.  I'm sure I'm missing something here, as usual, but why 70 amps? I know we're going to be adding more to this than just the 40amps for the motor, but I'm sure this is my ignorance speaking here... I'm not the sharpest tool in the drawer, so if it's not too imposing, can you explain the reasoning here? I'm not trying at all to be difficult or argumentative. I just don't know and wish to better understand.

Jim, as for your tip on the supplier, I will bookmark that immediately. The last tip you gave me(ecompressedair.com) turned out to be a super recommendation. Thanks!

As for lamps, I hear you, but LEDs  and fluorescents(particularly the former) tend to trigger severe migraines for me. Something to do with the wavelength of the light, I think. I won't be able to get around using fluorescents in the shop, but to aid with that, particularly in the workshop, I'll add filters to them.  LEDs are for some reason very quick to trigger the migraines.  When they announced the coming end to 100w incandescent bulbs a few years ago, I bought like 3 cases of them. Enough to last my lifetime and beyond.  I'm all for saving energy, but compact fluorescents drive our dogs nuts.  They apparently emit some high-frequency hum/buzz that makes them crazy.  So we stay away from fluorescents in the house altogether.  

Nice diagram.  One of the things I thought about was lights, specifically lit switches.  On the front panel of the lathe, there are switches for On, Off, Lamp, and Coolant Pump. There is also supposed to be a domed indicator light that shows the lathe is powered-on/running.   I wonder if it would be useful to use lit switches for lamp and pump. (I know that seems a bit redundant in the case of the lamp, but my reasoning is that if the switched circuit is on, and the indicator tells me that, but the lamp isn't lit, it kind of tells me what the problem is.  (Of course, this is overkill...LOL)  As for the pump, however, going hard of hearing as I am, an indicator light helps me.

When you say "bring a neutral," you're meaning that we'll need the neutral in the 3 phase panel. Do I bring the neutral directly over from the single phase panel to the 3 phase panel?

Do you view DXFs in autocad? 

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> Wow guys, you sure can put things together on the fly! Experience, experience, experience... There is simply no substitute.



I've done this a time or two 



markamerica said:


> Jim recommends a 100amp disconnect with 70 amp fuses. The lathe motor says 40 amps. I'm sure I'm missing something here, as usual, but why 70 amps?



Normal fusing for a motor is about 175% of the motor maximum load current.  Having said that, the breaker in your 3 phase panel should be adequate.  A 60 amp unfused disconnect at the lathe would be OK.  Or you could just use the 3 phase panel breaker as the disconnect.  OK for home shop, but would not meet code in a commercial environment.



markamerica said:


> Nice diagram. One of the things I thought about was lights, specifically lit switches. On the front panel of the lathe, there are switches for On, Off, Lamp, and Coolant Pump. There is also supposed to be a domed indicator light that shows the lathe is powered-on/running. I wonder if it would be useful to use lit switches for lamp and pump.



We can add lighted switches, no problem.



markamerica said:


> When you say "bring a neutral," you're meaning that we'll need the neutral in the 3 phase panel. Do I bring the neutral directly over from the single phase panel to the 3 phase panel?



Yes, just pass the neutral through from the single phase panel, through the 3 phase panel and over to the lathe.  In a commercial environment this is not normally possible, but since you are starting with single phase it makes the most sense.



markamerica said:


> Do you view DXFs in autocad?



You can use any DXF Viewer, but yes, this was generated in AutoCAD 2000.


----------



## 4GSR

Rather than pulling a neutral thru your 3-P box, I've run a 120v line to the control box separately from your 3-p wire run.  In fact, you can run it along with your 3-p wire pull if you like.  My last lathe I bought was wired for 440v and two separate wires were run to provide 120v for plugs and light.  The contactor is set up to run on either 220v or 440v, just by changing jumpers on the coil.  So I guess either way works as long as you don't mix it up with your green ground wire.  Just remember to fuse a line off of the main line coming into your box for control voltage and light.  For accessory plug, mount a 4-plug box up on the wall behind where your lathe will be set up and make sure it is GFIC protected.  That goes for all plugs in your shop.  It's considered outside according to NFA-NEC.  Ken


----------



## JimDawson

That'll work also.  I did just that for my mill, brought in the 240 single phase for the spindle VFD and another pair for the 120V plug on the wall in the same conduit but on a separate breaker.  The VFD is hardwired in the box.  Then put a quad plug on the wall.  I plug in all of the control system into that.


----------



## John Hasler

JimDawson said:


> That'll work also.  I did just that for my mill, brought in the 240 single phase for the spindle VFD and another pair for the 120V plug on the wall in the same conduit but on a separate breaker.  The VFD is hardwired in the box.  Then put a quad plug on the wall.  I plug in all of the control system into that.


A handle tie would be a good idea.


----------



## markamerica

Sorry folks, been on the road the last few days.  


JimDawson said:


> I've done this a time or two



So I've gathered.


JimDawson said:


> Normal fusing for a motor is about 175% of the motor maximum load current.  Having said that, the breaker in your 3 phase panel should be adequate.  A 60 amp unfused disconnect at the lathe would be OK.  Or you could just use the 3 phase panel breaker as the disconnect.  OK for home shop, but would not meet code in a commercial environment.



Ah, that makes more sense. Now I get the 70 amps... I'm thinking 40amps is enough, but you're saying 70 = 175%. Got ya...



JimDawson said:


> We can add lighted switches, no problem.



Good deal.  A few bells/whistles never hurt anybody.



JimDawson said:


> Yes, just pass the neutral through from the single phase panel, through the 3 phase panel and over to the lathe.  In a commercial environment this is not normally possible, but since you are starting with single phase it makes the most sense.



That makes sense.  Shouldn't take much to do so.



JimDawson said:


> You can use any DXF Viewer, but yes, this was generated in AutoCAD 2000.



Okay, thanks.  Didn't have anything handy to open it.  Somewhere, I've got an old copy of AutoCad.



4gsr said:


> Rather than pulling a neutral thru your 3-P box, I've run a 120v line to the control box separately from your 3-p wire run.  In fact, you can run it along with your 3-p wire pull if you like.  My last lathe I bought was wired for 440v and two separate wires were run to provide 120v for plugs and light.  The contactor is set up to run on either 220v or 440v, just by changing jumpers on the coil.  So I guess either way works as long as you don't mix it up with your green ground wire.  Just remember to fuse a line off of the main line coming into your box for control voltage and light.  For accessory plug, mount a 4-plug box up on the wall behind where your lathe will be set up and make sure it is GFIC protected.  That goes for all plugs in your shop.  It's considered outside according to NFA-NEC.  Ken



I wondered about the best approach and where GFCI should be used in the shop.  Simple is better for my thick skull. 



JimDawson said:


> That'll work also.  I did just that for my mill, brought in the 240 single phase for the spindle VFD and another pair for the 120V plug on the wall in the same conduit but on a separate breaker.  The VFD is hardwired in the box.  Then put a quad plug on the wall.  I plug in all of the control system into that.



So basically, the 240 3phase to power the lathe motor, but we're just going to do a separate circuit altogether for controls/accessories.  That actually makes good sense.  Does this mean I'll need like a "master power on/off" for the 120v control circuits?  



John Hasler said:


> A handle tie would be a good idea.



John, thanks, where goes the handle tie?  

Thanks all!


----------



## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> John, thanks, where goes the handle tie?


It ties the handle of the breaker protecting the spindle circuit to the handle of the single-pole breaker protecting the 120V aux circuit so that you cannot turn off one without turning off the other.


----------



## markamerica

John, I know what a handle tie is. I just wasn't understanding where.,. If my 3 phase is in one panel, my single phase in another...  Or am I missing something again? Sorry...

Mark


----------



## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> I wondered about the best approach and where GFCI should be used in the shop.



A couple of options

One or more GFCI breakers in your single phase panel
A GFCI outlet in each 120V circuit.



markamerica said:


> So basically, the 240 3phase to power the lathe motor, but we're just going to do a separate circuit altogether for controls/accessories. That actually makes good sense. Does this mean I'll need like a "master power on/off" for the 120v control circuits?



If you plug it into an outlet, a master switch is not really needed.  The way I do it on my lathe is the E-stop switch serves as the ''master''.  On my mill, I do have a master switch for the 120V power, but it's not really needed since it plugs into the wall.  The switch was in the panel when I got the mill and would require actual effort to remove it.

Speaking of wall receptacles for 120V,  buy the good ones, 20 Amp, industrial or heavy duty.  They are about $5 each vs. the $0.95 ones, well worth the price difference in the long run.



markamerica said:


> I just wasn't understanding where.,. If my 3 phase is in one panel, my single phase in another...


That would be difficult to install.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> A couple of options
> 
> One or more GFCI breakers in your single phase panel
> A GFCI outlet in each 120V circuit.
> 
> If you plug it into an outlet, a master switch is not really needed.  The way I do it on my lathe is the E-stop switch serves as the ''master''.  On my mill, I do have a master switch for the 120V power, but it's not really needed since it plugs into the wall.  The switch was in the panel when I got the mill and would require actual effort to remove it.
> 
> Speaking of wall receptacles for 120V,  buy the good ones, 20 Amp, industrial or heavy duty.  They are about $5 each vs. the $0.95 ones, well worth the price difference in the long run.
> 
> 
> That would be difficult to install.



Thanks Jim!

As far as 120v receptacles, yes, absolutely, 20 amp high quality will be used.  Our rinky-dink shack(also known as our home) has the world's cheapest crap outlets, 15 amp, and they don't hold a power cord even against the gravity weight of the end of the cord.  I hate those cheap outlets. I've replaced a couple of the more annoying ones over time, but yes, in the shop, all good stuff for outlets.  I just have to think about the number of times I've had to walk back and re-plug something in the shack because the plug fell out of the darned things. This isn't as big a problem with grounded plugs, but on simple stuff with no ground prong, it's a nuisance.   

I definitely want to do the GFCI breakers, and I've always liked the idea since they came along.  I especially like them wherever moisture is even a remote possibility, like near sinks, outdoor outlets, etc. What I really like is that if you have multiple outlets on a single circuit, a single GFCI receptacle provides protection to the whole circuit.  

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> I definitely want to do the GFCI breakers, and I've always liked the idea since they came along. I especially like them wherever moisture is even a remote possibility, like near sinks, outdoor outlets, etc. What I really like is that if you have multiple outlets on a single circuit, a single GFCI receptacle provides protection to the whole circuit.


If you like crap outlets you'll love GFCI receptacles, especially the ones that can be daisy-chained as you describe.   The target market is developers trying to comply with code at minimum cost.   They fail frequently: a friend actually had one catch fire.  I suggest that you either buy real GFCI breakers or do without.  If all your 120V stuff is either three-wire or double-insulated I suggest that you consider Class C GFCIs  (20ma rather than 5) to reduce nuisance tripping.  And, of course, buy quality which in breakers pretty much means Square D.

[Edit] Here is an informative document: http://www.csemag.com/single-article/ul-s-new-gfci-classes/89c8746cdc4a7fd8a3cb93f1d51ba57a.html


----------



## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> John, I know what a handle tie is. I just wasn't understanding where.,. If my 3 phase is in one panel, my single phase in another...  Or am I missing something again? Sorry...
> 
> Mark


Can't be done with out relaying (you don't want to go there).  You'll have to rely on prominent labeling.  I suggest two neon or LED pilot lights, one powered by each circuit,  on the panel of the machine.


----------



## markamerica

John Hasler said:


> If you like crap outlets you'll love GFCI receptacles, especially the ones that can be daisy-chained as you describe.   The target market is developers trying to comply with code at minimum cost.   They fail frequently: a friend actually had one catch fire.  I suggest that you either buy real GFCI breakers or do without.  If all your 120V stuff is either three-wire or double-insulated I suggest that you consider Class C GFCIs  (20ma rather than 5) to reduce nuisance tripping.  And, of course, buy quality which in breakers pretty much means Square D.
> 
> [Edit] Here is an informative document: http://www.csemag.com/single-article/ul-s-new-gfci-classes/89c8746cdc4a7fd8a3cb93f1d51ba57a.html


John,

Here are the 120 circuit breakers I intended to use:  https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-H...l-Function-AFCI-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker/50311123

All my panels are Square D. My meter bases, my main throw switch(on the service poles) are all Square D.  So at least I got that right...LOL



John Hasler said:


> Can't be done with out relaying (you don't want to go there).  You'll have to rely on prominent labeling.  I suggest two neon or LED pilot lights, one powered by each circuit,  on the panel of the machine.



Yeah, that's what I thought. I figure I can do a master power indicator of some sort for the 120, and a motor power indicator like the machine originally had.  I definitely don't want one more relay than I absolutely need...

Thanks!


----------



## 4GSR

Mark, not to speak in the place of Jim or John, who are much more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the code, I would stay away from AFCI breakers in general for the shop since it is detached from your house.  In my house upgrade me and my electrician did last year, we tried to install several AFCI breakers.  Could not get any of them to stay on, kept tripping.  What we determined was any neutral wire that crossed over an hot wire, it would trip the AFCI breaker.  We finally took them out.  It's old work, code says, don't necessarily need them even though it is encouraged to install them.  I do use GFCI breakers for my shop plugs and those outside the house.  Ken


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Mark, not to speak in the place of Jim or John, who are much more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the code, I would stay away from AFCI breakers in general for the shop since it is detached from your house.  In my house upgrade me and my electrician did last year, we tried to install several AFCI breakers.  Could not get any of them to stay on, kept tripping.  What we determined was any neutral wire that crossed over an hot wire, it would trip the AFCI breaker.  We finally took them out.  It's old work, code says, don't necessarily need them even though it is encouraged to install them.  I do use GFCI breakers for my shop plugs and those outside the house.  Ken



Hmmm. I'll keep that in mind. I wonder why.  BTW, my motor arrived in good order today, picked it up at the local freight terminal...  Looks like a million bucks.  Weighs like it too...LOL

Mark


----------



## John Hasler

4gsr said:


> Mark, not to speak in the place of Jim or John, who are much more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the code, I would stay away from AFCI breakers in general for the shop since it is detached from your house.  In my house upgrade me and my electrician did last year, we tried to install several AFCI breakers.  Could not get any of them to stay on, kept tripping.  What we determined was any neutral wire that crossed over an hot wire, it would trip the AFCI breaker.  We finally took them out.  It's old work, code says, don't necessarily need them even though it is encouraged to install them.  I do use GFCI breakers for my shop plugs and those outside the house.  Ken


I agree.  Don't use AFCI breakers in a shop.  In fact, don't use them anywhere they aren't required, and perhaps not even there.


----------



## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> John,
> 
> Here are the 120 circuit breakers I intended to use:  https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-H...l-Function-AFCI-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker/50311123
> 
> All my panels are Square D. My meter bases, my main throw switch(on the service poles) are all Square D.  So at least I got that right...LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's what I thought. I figure I can do a master power indicator of some sort for the 120, and a motor power indicator like the machine originally had.  I definitely don't want one more relay than I absolutely need...
> 
> Thanks!


Ok.  Just be sure the indicators are upstream of any on/off switches or contactors: they should be lit when the circuit is live even if the machine is turned off.


----------



## markamerica

John Hasler said:


> Ok.  Just be sure the indicators are upstream of any on/off switches or contactors: they should be lit when the circuit is live even if the machine is turned off.


John, Right, that's the whole reason I'd want an indicator for the 120v control power, as opposed to just the spindle motor power indicator with which the machine was equipped from the factory. If I'm going to have a separate 120v circuit to control the rest of the machine, I need to know whether that circuit is also live.  Just makes good sense.  Since the machine did not have such a circuit originally, it's my thinking to place that indicator up top and apart from the originals.  Makes it distinct... 

Having mentioned that, I managed to unload the new motor from the truck this evening.  Boy am I glad I have the tractor.  Makes quick work of 300lbs. I'll probably fashion a sling to dismount the old motor and mount the new one so that I can use the tractor for the lift.  I think this weekend, I'll be pulling off the old motor, and begin some serious cleaning before I mount the new one. A ton of work to be sure. 

By the way, it seems odd that I am having trouble finding the GFCI-only circuit breakers to fit my single-phase panel. I can find used ones, but all the new ones are also AFCI, unless I happen to stumble into some NOS trove somewhere. I was reading on this a little, and that seems to be the way it's all going.  

Thanks John!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Okay, time for an update.  So I managed to find some NOS GFI breakers for my single phase panel.  That's good news. I also managed to pull off the switch panel from the front of the lathe. Turns out, the panel bolts on from the front with a pair of socket head screws, one at each end. Once you pull it out, the wire bundle is all that supports it.  It has a box that covers all of the switches and wiring. Here are a couple of pictures. The switches seem to be 30mm through the holes on the face of the panel. (Well, the holes are probably 30mm, the threads seemed to be around 29.7xy mm): Here are the pics(the item on the far left is the power indicator socket, near as I can tell):




As I was looking at the motor, and how I'll go about mounting the new one, I noticed something I hadn't before.  The clutch linkage runs via a shaft from the front, through a pillow block, and then to a linkage rod to the middle of the gear case.  As it is currently configured, it would interfere with the Stearns brake on the motor.  Question: Can I manufacture a new rod, assuming sufficient rigidity, that would allow me to move the pivot on the end of the shaft inward(closer to the machine) on the 25mm shaft, so that I could essentially avoid interference with the Stearns Brake?  The linkage rod is 14mm with 2mm pitch, about 17" long, center to center of the rod ends.  It's perfectly straight of course, but I'd basically make a new rod with two right angles to avoid the interference.  Here are some pictures of the problem:

As you can see looking at this first picture, that would interfere with the Stearns Brake.



As you may be able to see here, there's about 2-1/2 or 3" inches of shaft between the pillow-block and the lever, which is simply roll-pinned to the shaft:



Here's a slightly better look at the shaft. 



So what I propose is to shorten the shaft, moving the roll-pin hole and the control arm back close to the pillow-block. Theoretically, I could even flip it over on the shaft, placing the rod in the same vertical plane with the pillow-block, and that would basically clear the plane of the inside edge of the motor entirely.  Thoughts? 

As it is, the Hoffman enclosure that originally came with the lathe(and was missing) is set out about 3 inches to clear that linkage, and hinged on the left edge(as viewed from behind the lathe) allowing it to swing out for adjustment/lube of the upper control arm. I figure to essentially remake that same set-up, although the enclosure I purchased is about 6 inches taller, so will extend up about 6 inches above the level of the gear case. Thinking about this, could I place additional indicator lights and or switches directly through the back of the Hoffman enclosure, so I could see them from the front?

BTW, Jim, that one picture I had posted a while back that showed some sort of contactor or something, I finally retook that picture so here that is:



Lastly, I'm having heck with the pulley.  First of all, I'm unfamiliar with this sort of fixture.  In these pictures, I've removed the bolt in the end of the shaft for better clarity:




There are no set-screws of any sort I can find. There's a woodruff key, of course




As you can see by the last picture, looking at the back of the pulley, there's nothing there either.



I've managed to better measure the dimensions of the pulley itself.  It's very near 9-3/4" outside diameter.  It is almost precisely 2" wide, front rim face to back rim face.  The belt grooves appear to be very near to 12mm at the top(outside edge), and the grooves are .577" or 14.67mm deep. The central hub doesn't appear to have an offset. I've got to figure out an equivalent, using a taper-bushing type, since of course, the new motor's shaft isn't threaded.


----------



## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> BTW, Jim, that one picture I had posted a while back that showed some sort of contactor or something, I finally retook that picture so here that is:



I don't know what that is.  Never seen anything quite like it.

I'm guessing that pulley is a tight press fit.  That's common in German machines.  It's just pulled into place with the bolt.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> I don't know what that is.  Never seen anything quite like it.
> 
> I'm guessing that pulley is a tight press fit.  That's common in German machines.  It's just pulled into place with the bolt.



Jim, as for that electrical device, looking at the remnants of such wiring as I am able, I believe this is the first place electricity touched the machine.  Not certain of it.  I believe RST are the 3 phase legs, and N maybe neutral?? Of course, you can see the ground lug there at upper right.  All I know for sure is it goes under a small cast cover on the back of the headstock pedestal. There's a notch in that cover for wiring to enter, and then the wiring at the top of this device departs through the wall of the pedestal.


----------



## JimDawson

Maybe just a terminal block then.


----------



## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> BTW, Jim, that one picture I had posted a while back that showed some sort of contactor or something, I finally retook that picture so here that is:


Looks like a set of contacts on a DIN rail.  Can you get a picture from another angle so that we can see whether there is any sort of mechanism in it?


----------



## 4GSR

Mark,

Rather than rasel with getting  that sheave off the motor shaft, how about buying a new sheave, guessing either 3V or A section groove with a taper lock bushing to fit the new motor shaft.  As the existing sheave will be metric bore which will not fit the new motor shaft.  And would be a bigger headache trying to use it than buying something more easier to fit up to the new motor.

Ken


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Maybe just a terminal block then.


Jim,

You and John are exactly right.  It's a series of terminal bars mounted on a din type rail. It looked like a single fixture until I dismounted it, and then the insulating cases are brittle and began to fall apart. Here's a picture from the end:




As for the accessory/brake shaft on the head-stock, here is a picture. Notice the green leads dangling.  Apparently, the brake mounted to the circle of socket-head screws, and the rotor rode the shaft. At least that's what I'd guess:




Lastly, from the headstock end of the gearbox, after removing the old motor just so I can begin cleaning all of it, I found 37 years worth of chips built up under the gear-case:




The other thing this last photo made plain to me is the construction of this series of lathes.  Apparently, the bed runs end to end.  The gear case is common as is the bed.  What changes, near as I can tell, is the plate shown in this last photo on which the gear case rests.  If you look closely, the gear-case has its own ways, and to the right of this last photo, you can see the clamp-bar that holds it down to the ways at this end.  You can actually see one of the 90 degree ways at the top of the curved rail there. So my speculation is that if you had a 50x series, you got this gear case. If you had a 60x, or 70x series, you got gear cases 10 and 20 cm taller(with respect to spindle centerline.)  Of course, the tail stock and steady rests would change accordingly too, and I think it would necessitate a change on the change gears for the sake of making the lead screw and etc run.  Typical German modularity, best I can tell.  Fun fun. Now that I have the old motor out of the way, it's soaking with a degreaser. I just want to get some of the dirt and grease and grime off of it so I can brush up against it without turning my clothing to greasy rags.  And the work continues...LOL


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## 4GSR

All that build up of chips is from using a air gun to clean the machine off for 37 years!


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## markamerica

So I've been looking around for switches...  Obviously, I want round face push-buttons that fit snuggly in a 30mm hole.  Illuminated switches would be nice.  What switching mechanism is appropriate here? I wouldn't want to use momentary switches for these, right?


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## JimDawson

For the motor starter you will want momentary, Start, Normally Open (NO), for the Stop, Normally Closed (NC)
For the Estop, Maintained, Twist release, NC
For the lamp and coolant pump, Maintained Selector, NO

Try this
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators


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## John Hasler

markamerica said:


> So I've been looking around for switches...  Obviously, I want round face push-buttons that fit snuggly in a 30mm hole.  Illuminated switches would be nice.  What switching mechanism is appropriate here? I wouldn't want to use momentary switches for these, right?


For machine control you are usually controlling latching contactors and want SPDT momentary switches.  Looks like you've already got some in that panel.  How are you going to use the switches?


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## markamerica

John Hasler said:


> For machine control you are usually controlling latching contactors and want SPDT momentary switches.  Looks like you've already got some in that panel.  How are you going to use the switches?



John, yeah, there are some there, but they're pretty beat up.  I'm thinking about replacing the works and be done with it.



JimDawson said:


> For the motor starter you will want momentary, Start, Normally Open (NO), for the Stop, Normally Closed (NC)
> For the Estop, Maintained, Twist release, NC
> For the lamp and coolant pump, Maintained Selector, NO
> 
> Try this
> https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators



Nice. Thanks Jim! So what I need:
I'm going to need that "master" power circuit to activate the controls. I figure something with an amber light, or at least an amber indicator?
I'm going to need a green button, and a red button.
I'm going to need blue for coolant.
Lamp can be plain/white. 

The E-Stop button will need to be linked to that Stearns Brake, so I assume the way that will work is pulled out, the circuit will be closed, permitting the brake to be disengaged, and when I push it in, it will open, and the brake gets applied.  Or maybe I'm making it too simple. Will I need to put a relay in place? The next question along those lines... One of the things I read that is a recommendation for lathes over a certain bed length is to have TWO E-stop switches... One at the Headstock somewhere in easy reach, and one mounted in easy reach on the carriage.  So follow my ignorance a step further.  Is the way to do this approximately like:  The two E-Stop switches are in series, and if either is pushed-in (Open) then that breaks the circuit that energizes the relay that when energized, sends power to the brake, which then disengages?  Roughly?

I've been looking at coolant systems just because.  What I've decided is that I ought to provision for a 3 phase coolant pump, probably in the 1/8-1/4HP range, that would be electrically integrated to the machine, via an accessory socket like the one the machine already has...  Anything less than that, I can do as an adjunct free-standing circuit separate from the machine anyway... Sound reasonable?

So the idea, I think, would be like this:
Turn on "master" (Control circuit) power which would be my separate 120v circuit. This should then do the following:
Turn on an indicator
Enable the E-Stop Circuit (Provide power to a relay for the the brake to disengage it) and I assume stops the main motor.
Enable the Starter Circuit (Provide power to the starter button)
Enable the Pump Circuit(Provide power to the Pump Switch)
Enable the Lamp Circuit(Provide power to the lamp switch)

At that point, hitting the E-Stop switch should de-energize the relay, and the brake should apply.
Pressing the Starter button should power up the main motor
Turning on the Pump Circuit should power a relay to power the accessory plug(3-phase)
Turning on the Lamp circuit should just turn on a 120v lamp socket.

Once the motor is running, does the stop switch break the main motor circuit, or how does that work exactly? 

Sorry, I'm just trying to work all this out in my head, and there's plenty of bone to penetrate...


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## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> I'm going to need that "master" power circuit to activate the controls. I figure something with an amber light, or at least an amber indicator?



A lighted pushbutton would be my choice here.  



markamerica said:


> The two E-Stop switches are in series, and if either is pushed-in (Open) then that breaks the circuit that energizes the relay that when energized, sends power to the brake, which then disengages? Roughly?



Yes, wired in series.  Pushing in either E-stop would deenergize the Control Power (master) circuit, and thus deenergize the brake



markamerica said:


> What I've decided is that I ought to provision for a 3 phase coolant pump, probably in the 1/8-1/4HP range, that would be electrically integrated to the machine, via an accessory socket like the one the machine already has...



To add in a 3PH coolant pump, you will need to add a small motor starter and related circuit.



markamerica said:


> So the idea, I think, would be like this:
> Turn on "master" (Control circuit) power which would be my separate 120v circuit. This should then do the following:
> Turn on an indicator
> Enable the E-Stop Circuit (Provide power to a relay for the the brake to disengage it) and I assume stops the main motor.
> Enable the Starter Circuit (Provide power to the starter button)
> Enable the Pump Circuit(Provide power to the Pump Switch)
> Enable the Lamp Circuit(Provide power to the lamp switch)



The E-stop drops out the control power so everything is deenergized.  You would have to push the control power button after an E-stop to start again.

I would put the work lamp ahead of the control power relay as shown in the schematic, that way you can turn on the work lamp even if the E-stop is pushed.  Other than that, I think you've got it.



markamerica said:


> Once the motor is running, does the stop switch break the main motor circuit, or how does that work exactly?



Yes, the motor stop switch is wired in series with the ''seal in'' contacts in the motor starter.  So pushing the stop button deenergizes the motor starter.


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> A lighted pushbutton would be my choice here.



Hmm. I was looking at the site you linked earlier. I like the look of the Cutler Hammer switches and so on.  A bit more pricey, but I think they look like they might be reasonably sturdy. Any tips on that front? Also, I noticed all their illuminated pushbutton switches seem to be momentary, except for the mushroom head type, which they only have red and green in illuminated. Maybe I missed some... Wouldn't be the first time.  Thanks for the tip though, as it was certainly better than some I'd been looking at.



JimDawson said:


> Yes, wired in series.  Pushing in either E-stop would deenergize the Control Power (master) circuit, and thus deenergize the brake



This raises another question. Don't take it overly seriously, but I wondered: Could I make a brake switch that would 1.) stop the motor and 2.) apply the brake without killing master power? I wonder this in the instance in which I want to stop the spindle, but not cut the power, and here I'm thinking about threading operations. I realize this would complicate matters... Mostly spit-balling.




JimDawson said:


> To add in a 3PH coolant pump, you will need to add a small motor starter and related circuit.


Right, I could put in the front end for now, maybe omit a fuse, and come back and add the pump and starter later?  Here, I am just considering running the switch wiring for now even if it does nothing until some future date. I've looked at how I'm going to need to run wires, and think it would be best to do so if possible.



JimDawson said:


> The E-stop drops out the control power so everything is deenergized.  You would have to push the control power button after an E-stop to start again.



Right, and this is why I asked what I did about a separate braking function.



JimDawson said:


> I would put the work lamp ahead of the control power relay as shown in the schematic, that way you can turn on the work lamp even if the E-stop is pushed.  Other than that, I think you've got it.



Makes sense to me. Glad I'm starting to understand the chore at hand. It's really not that complex. It's just that I want to build it once, build it right, and be done.



JimDawson said:


> Yes, the motor stop switch is wired in series with the ''seal in'' contacts in the motor starter.  So pushing the stop button deenergizes the motor starter.



See, this is where my unfamiliarity with 3 phase motors and their starters really hurts me.  I'll have to see how that is all wired once or twice to start to absorb it.  Nothing like hands-on.... I know, I know, my string of questions would never indicate I design and simulate circuits like this one:


Thanks for your patience and help, Jim!

Mark


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## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> Hmm. I was looking at the site you linked earlier. I like the look of the Cutler Hammer switches and so on. A bit more pricey, but I think they look like they might be reasonably sturdy. Any tips on that front? Also, I noticed all their illuminated pushbutton switches seem to be momentary, except for the mushroom head type, which they only have red and green in illuminated. Maybe I missed some... Wouldn't be the first time. Thanks for the tip though, as it was certainly better than some I'd been looking at.


They have all the normal colors, you just need to spend some time browsing.   Be careful of what you order, you want to make sure you get the operator and the contact block.  Cutler Hammer is top of the line NEMA rated products, but certainly not cheap.  I only buy from industrial electrical vendors, trying to by off of Ebay or something like that is a PITA.  I want the full product catalog with all of the specs and documentation to go through when I buy.  Besides orders over $49 get free 2 day shipping.




markamerica said:


> This raises another question. Don't take it overly seriously, but I wondered: Could I make a brake switch that would 1.) stop the motor and 2.) apply the brake without killing master power? I wonder this in the instance in which I want to stop the spindle, but not cut the power, and here I'm thinking about threading operations. I realize this would complicate matters... Mostly spit-balling.



Sure, anything is possible.  But I think your spindle is engaged with a clutch, so that would have to remain engaged for the motor brake to work.  This would not really be a good way to stop a lathe. It is also possible that there is a mechanical brake in the spindle clutch system, not sure.



markamerica said:


> Right, I could put in the front end for now, maybe omit a fuse, and come back and add the pump and starter later? Here, I am just considering running the switch wiring for now even if it does nothing until some future date. I've looked at how I'm going to need to run wires, and think it would be best to do so if possible



I would just put the switch on the front panel, and run the wires into the electrical cabinet.  Then later, you can add the pump motor starter if you want.

That schematic looks kinda like a DC motor controller, looks like it has an H-Bridge in it.   I can't see the text well enough to tell for sure.


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> They have all the normal colors, you just need to spend some time browsing.   Be careful of what you order, you want to make sure you get the operator and the contact block.  Cutler Hammer is top of the line NEMA rated products, but certainly not cheap.  I only buy from industrial electrical vendors, trying to by off of Ebay or something like that is a PITA.  I want the full product catalog with all of the specs and documentation to go through when I buy.  Besides orders over $49 get free 2 day shipping.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, anything is possible.  But I think your spindle is engaged with a clutch, so that would have to remain engaged for the motor brake to work.  This would not really be a good way to stop a lathe. It is also possible that there is a mechanical brake in the spindle clutch system, not sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I would just put the switch on the front panel, and run the wires into the electrical cabinet.  Then later, you can add the pump motor starter if you want.
> 
> That schematic looks kinda like a DC motor controller, looks like it has an H-Bridge in it.   I can't see the text well enough to tell for sure.


Jim,

Thanks! I will dig around some more.  The Eaton-Cutler-Hammer pieces sure look worth the money, relatively speaking. Should be worth my trouble and expense. I thought about putting one of their rotating red beacons up top for when the motor is running. An expensive option, and a little "bling," but hey, safety first...

As far as my brake question, I wondered about that: if I've got the load spinning, engage the brake, that would probably hammer the clutch, since the motor drive would be stopping but the inertia of the load would still be turning against the holding capacity of the clutch. Makes me wonder about the EM brake with which this was fitted from factory. I'm wondering if that brake was "after" the clutch, or before it in the gear chain. In other words, if the clutch was disengaged so the load is free-spinning, and that brake was applied, did it stop the load or the motor? I'll have to look at the gear case again to figure that out. I suspect it was linked to that e-stop switch, so it may be on the drive side of the clutch, rather than the driven side, if that makes sense.

My schematic there is a heavily modified audio power amplifier circuit. The original is a Soundcraftsmen amplifier of early-mid 80s vintage. My simulations with LTSpice are aimed at reducing THD for the amplifier to below .001% across its range. That particular iteration of my redesign got it down to < .0004%.  I own several of these amplifiers. They're amazingly durable, and one corner of my shop will be dedicated as an electronics test bench with my distortion analyzer(s) and o-scope and so on. The circuit pictured here represents a single channel of the amplification circuit, and outputs a maximum of around 500w into a 4ohm load. Two such circuits per unit. They drive my big Polk SRS speakers, which will dissipate 1000w each @4ohms nominal impedance. They get bi-amped. (Two amplifiers driving the load, split high freq and low freq).

So when I decide to shake my rinky-dink shack, it gets a little loud. 

Thanks!

Mark


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## markamerica

markamerica said:


> Jim,
> 
> Thanks! I will dig around some more.  The Eaton-Cutler-Hammer pieces sure look worth the money, relatively speaking. Should be worth my trouble and expense. I thought about putting one of their rotating red beacons up top for when the motor is running. An expensive option, and a little "bling," but hey, safety first...
> 
> As far as my brake question, I wondered about that: if I've got the load spinning, engage the brake, that would probably hammer the clutch, since the motor drive would be stopping but the inertia of the load would still be turning against the holding capacity of the clutch. Makes me wonder about the EM brake with which this was fitted from factory. I'm wondering if that brake was "after" the clutch, or before it in the gear chain. In other words, if the clutch was disengaged so the load is free-spinning, and that brake was applied, did it stop the load or the motor? I'll have to look at the gear case again to figure that out. I suspect it was linked to that e-stop switch, so it may be on the drive side of the clutch, rather than the driven side, if that makes sense.
> 
> My schematic there is a heavily modified audio power amplifier circuit. The original is a Soundcraftsmen amplifier of early-mid 80s vintage. My simulations with LTSpice are aimed at reducing THD for the amplifier to below .001% across its range. That particular iteration of my redesign got it down to < .0004%.  I own several of these amplifiers. They're amazingly durable, and one corner of my shop will be dedicated as an electronics test bench with my distortion analyzer(s) and o-scope and so on. The circuit pictured here represents a single channel of the amplification circuit, and outputs a maximum of around 500w into a 4ohm load. Two such circuits per unit. They drive my big Polk SRS speakers, which will dissipate 1000w each @4ohms nominal impedance. They get bi-amped. (Two amplifiers driving the load, split high freq and low freq).
> 
> So when I decide to shake my rinky-dink shack, it gets a little loud.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


Oh, two other quick things: 
Remember my door safety switch? Ought I fix that as well? 

As far as the question of a mechanical brake, not sure how that would work on this beast, if present. I guess another reason to take another look in the gearcase. Dang, that lid is heavy....LOL

Thanks!

Mark


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## markamerica

Oh, one last thing, not electrical: I figured out that this beast requires change gears as other speculated. There are no additional gears present. (Bummer) The gears on it are for metric. We're investigating through that German outfit if the other gears are available. Particularly, the 115T and 60T that would permit cutting imperial threads... Basically, it uses 3 59T gears, a 118T and I think the other is an 86T to cut metric threads. To go to imperial, you replace one of the 59s with a 60, and the 118 with the 115. 

For the other two thread types supported, it requires three other gears, best I can discern. 

I'm not so concerned with DP ore modulus threads, but the imperials, why yes, of course!


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## JimDawson

Very cool amp.  OK, it makes sense now, what I took to be an H-bridge is actually a push-pull amp.  I have never worked on audio electronics.

I guess I wouldn't worry too much about the door switch for a home shop, unless you are prone to sticking your fingers into moving gears

My Jet lathe has a mechanical brake that is applied by a foot pedal.  When applied, it drops out the motor contactor.  But I have never used it, and the linkage has been removed.


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Very cool amp.  OK, it makes sense now, what I took to be an H-bridge is actually a push-pull amp.  I have never worked on audio electronics.
> 
> I guess I wouldn't worry too much about the door switch for a home shop, unless you are prone to sticking your fingers into moving gears
> 
> My Jet lathe has a mechanical brake that is applied by a foot pedal.  When applied, it drops out the motor contactor.  But I have never used it, and the linkage has been removed.



Thanks Jim!

Sorry for the late reply. Was busy through the weekend getting ready for Monday's concrete pour. It went okay. More room for my shop now, and a slab ready for machines.

I wondered, given something 4GSR said, if I couldn't build a brake using that shaft on my Martin. Maybe a foot-operated hydraulic brake? I'd have to do the same thing, dropping out the main motor, but that just makes sense.  I figure something could be adapted, Ken having mentioned ATV brakes or similar.  That would probably work, but the hard part will be the splined rotor hub, I suspect. 

More to think about...


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## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> but the hard part will be the splined rotor hub




I see a shaper in your future


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> I see a shaper in your future



Don't say that too loudly... If my bride gets wind of that, you may never hear from me again.


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