# Ready to purchase a lathe



## MarkM

Good day all,  fairly new member here and have been impressed with the mindset of this forum.  No puffed chests and just people that want to get along and help each other.
Well it is time to buy a lathe.  It is all I think about these days.  I want to work towards a full rounded shop.
I will try to not ramble on too much but I should let you all know my intentions.  I spent 14 years in the industry with a general machinist ticket having spent time in Screw Machine shops and Jobbing shops.  I took a job on the east coast of Canada after a holiday.  Things were swell for some time and then I had a bad accident and returned to work a year later and work was so slow I ended up taking another job on and ended up driving a Zamboni for a living for over a decade.
Been a hard year with my mother and a close friend passing away.  It changed things for me and realized I want a change in my life and miss machining dearly.  I am planning on moving back to the Toronto area in a few years and hope to have enough equipment to run a shop.
I don't want to borrow any money and have sold a motorcycle to help get me started with another to sell.
My plans are to get my hands back in machining and also to improve my skills over the next few years to be able to find work as a machinist if I need to. Not many arena jobs out there.  Having my own equipment would enable me to challenge myself and not worry about time for a customer to improve my skills.
I am worried about retirement having spent time over seas and not paying into my pension for quite a few years.  So even if it takes me ten years that's ok.  It's to be a hobby shop to help out down the rd. financially and take a shot at running a shop.
I can't afford to buy pure industrial machines but feel quality can still be delivered with my budget.  It is going to be a hobby for some time.  Work on just setting things up over the next few years.
So I have come to ask for help on choosing a lathe.  There a a few machines I am interested in. Three from Precision Matthews the pm 1236 pm 1340 gt, and the 1440gs and one from Eisen the 1440E.
Two machines from China and two from Taiwan.  I believe Matts machines are better than most other imports.
I wanted a Taiwanese Machine from the start but the 1440gs has my attention with the ability to cut worms with DP and Modular threading available.  Japanese NSK Spindle Bearings and some great specs with the PM name on it which to me adds some quality from what I have read.
Nothing needs to be said about the 1340gt as we all know it is a fantastic machine for what it is.  Then there is the pm 1236.  Ok a bit on the small side but it really does seem like a good machine that has a great reputation over the years and with 3 phase a vfd and good tooling it should be a great machine.  The Eisen is another great Taiwanese machine which stretches my budget a bit.  Too many things to buy.
I understand there may be some quality differences but I would be ok if the machines needed tuning.  I plan to go just single phase now as my wiring to my garage is taking a fair chunk of change using Ocean Tech. cable and over building it to make sure it comes with me when I make the move.  Hopefully when I do move back all I need is four walls a roof and an electrician to get me going.
The Canadian Dollar is terrible and not too concerned about using single phase now.  Even if the motors went  on  the Chinese machines _I'd be ok with that.  As long as I can get there one day.  Tuning it and good tooling to make them better is no problem.  I just don't want a casting flaw or something terrible down the rd.
So any thoughts on these machines for my choices.  The 1440gs is my first choice. I hope to order this week.
This is a huge decision for me at 49 years old.  Can't go backwards at this stage.
_

I think in this day and age there is a niche market for a crafty machinist!


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## Kiwi Canuck

Mark, welcome to the site, you sound like you are more qualified than a lot of us to know what you want, which is a blessing and a curse at the same time I guess.

I just bought a Lathe (PM1340GT) and Mill (PM935) from PM and am very satisfied with the machines and Matt was awesome to deal with.

Having a low CAD $ sure makes it a bit of a stretch and hard to tell if it's better to wait for the rate to improve or just go for it, I just committed and paid whatever it cost once I choose which machines I was going to buy.

I looked at a few China made machines and decided to go with the Taiwanese made ones because I was concerned about fit and finish and my budget could handle the extra 25%.

I will be using my machines for work related tasks mostly but hope to do the same as you and one day have a paying hobby once I finish up with my day job.

Good luck and let us know what you choose. 

David.


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## MarkM

I bet there are quite a few machinist around here that would make me look silly even though they may not have earned a dollar from it and when I say or think inferior with the Chinese machines I catch myself realizing its on an open forum and should make myself clear.  I am sure they make high quality as well it just seems like a gamble, and Holy Cow that 1440 GS is a whole lot of lathe for the asking price.  Like real good Value.  Been Following these forums for years and I know Matt and the Pm Folks work hard for there product and customers.
The story of how the name evolved has been etched in my head for some time.  Apparently The People from the factory nicknamed Matt Precision Matt for his quest for better machines thinking he was a pain and wouldn't let up.  You here lots of folks happy with Grizzly as well.  I believe the importer is crucial and the standard they establish over time with the factories is what counts.  This is only my Opinion!
Yes that 1340gt keeps calling.  I have spoke to Matt once already and he went right to it.  I don't think the Gs was part of our conversation at the time. The 1440HD was and decided I don't want to deal with the weight.


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## JPigg55

Hi Mark and welcome to the forum.
Are you set on purchasing a new lathe ???
I took a quick look on KIJIJI and saw a few used lathes in your general area. Here's one of the listings:
10x48. Single phase 110/220 volt. 4 jaw independent chuck, 4 jaw scroll chuck and faceplate included. Phone calls only. Located in Amherst.
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-business-ind...he/1266545960?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true


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## wrmiller

I've not looked at the choices you listed, but if you want DP and modular threading aren't you really down to just the 1440gs? If not, I'll throw in a vote for the 1340GT just because I love mine. 

And welcome to the forums!


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## MarkM

Thank you Jpigg55 for taking the time to look for me.  I just sent them an email.  I really kind of want to start new with the two principle machines of the Lathe an Mill.  You never know what kind of an adventure a used machine may be.   Not worried about size with a swing no less than 12.  They all are pretty  much even in bed width.  Lean more towards a 1440 since it may do with the little more mass and capabilities.


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## MarkM

Worms are something that fascinates me and something I just want to do.  If  they don't have specific worm gearboxes most lathes will have some pitches that match a few leads worms require.  You could always make your own dimensions and work it all out to what you may have to work with.   My math is terrible right now.  Trig and such.   Having a specific box would be so much slicker and it threads a whole lot of threads.  Over forty metric as well as Imperial threads.


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## jbolt

Mark, welcome to the forums. 

I was in your shoes a year and a half a go or so. I really wanted a RML-1440 but it was just too far out of my budget. After much consideration I got down to between the PM-1440GT and the Griz G0709. The PM-1440GS was not on my radar at the time (or not yet available). Had it been it would have been my second choice over the G0709. It appears to be a solid choice and good value for the cost.  

I went with the PM-1440GT due to the overall better quality, fit & finish of the Taiwan machines vs the Chinese machines. I approached my purchase as this may be the last lathe I buy so I got the best I could afford at the time. I also do some customer work part time and I have been extremely pleased with my decision.


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## richl

Well, if you do get the pm1440gs, please start a thread about it. I am very interested in it. I keep waffling back and forth over the pm1440hd, the pm1340gt and now the pm1440gs. All fine machines for different reasons.

Rich


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## MarkM

Well, finally able to have a chat with Matt.  A very busy man.  Seems like all arrows seem to head towards that 1340gt.  Too bad it was not a few years ago with an even dollar.  For a lifetime machine it's hard not to bite the bullet now.  Probably learn a lot suffering through setups with milling on the lathe.  Going to ponder the Cdn.$ for a day or two and get it over with.  I need to sleep. Pills aren't working either.


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## MarkM

I have to admit kind thinking too that the 1440gs is a hidden gem with the upgraded Japanese spindle bearings and such.  A really sweet looking machine with it's unique chip tray and what a feed/thread box!  There I go again!


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## MarkM

I am bouncing a bit back and forth and still wonder about the pm1236.  Seen some pretty good work on them and some Videos.  Impressive.  Any pm 1236 users out there with a three phase and vfd that use it quite often
I will try to not annoy you out there but I find myself going back and forth with the question of just how much I should spend.  A catch 22.  Save some for a roof for the garage, Tooling a Mill Drill, Windows in the house.  The list goes on  and then I go back in circles.   I know many have gone through this so bare with me.


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## jbolt

Having used my PM-1440GT for a while now I could not do without the 2" spindle bore and the foot brake. The D1-5 spindle is a big step up over the D1-4 that I had on my old lathe. Food for thought.


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## ezduzit

If money is no object buy new. But the best way to stretch a budget is to buy a used machine, in excellent condition, with a comprehensive set of tooling.


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## MarkM

Some really good thoughts here!  Thanks for all of you to take the time to post and to be genuine and interested for me.
I do think of used machines but they will be generally way heavier and with moving in a few years dollars add up quick.  I live in a very small town in Atlantic Canada.  Moved out here after a holiday as a Machinist.  Going to be in a Metropolis in a few years where there will be plenty of great Machine Tools I'll be able to actually see.  Right now I want to work on setup.  Get the shop together and if someone comes great but I can't afford  to buy everything so I plan to just work on things and make the tooling and go play.  Even looking forward to just having a lathe for sometime with no mill.  I kind of want to revisit my apprentiship old school.  I think those guys were crafty.  They had solutions out of brilliance.  Not CAD. 
I think after a few months you know what you have generally.  If the lathe is a lemon you'll see that early enough so a guarantee at this stage is paramount.


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## MarkM

Its sad how I go back and forth.  Really hard to spend this kind of money and not be able to see it or put my hands on it.
Have a good day all!


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## MarkM

Do I just completely blow my budget by the 1340 gt and be done with it for good and not consider another lathe and move on?  Or save a bit of money and buy lath that I really like. Gs That give you quite a bit of lathe with a reputable company with a three year warantee.  With some good chucks along with a vfd 3phase setup.  I think would be a great machine especially with it's eight speed box.  I got a call last night about my second bike a klr 650 well setup for adventure travel.  Just sold a ktm 950 adventure for this lathe.  If no one buys the klr by Monday it's the Gs and work towards that machine.   If it's gone I going to buy the pm 1340gt.
In the end I have to make a decision and we all think different for different reasons but I would like to thank you all for your time thoughts and good nature.
Looking forward to this new adventure.


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## Kiwi Canuck

I'm sure either of those lathes will be a good trade for what you're giving up to get them, hopefully you got a good price for your 950 as they are still quite sort after.

Just checked the pricing, aren't the 1340Gt and the 1440GS similar in price for the base machine, within $500 right?

As far as a 1236 versus 1440GS, both Chinese COO, but the GS is so much more lathe for not a lot more money.

Good luck on the KLR sale.

I've got 6 bikes in the garage including a Suzuki DR650 and Suzuki VStrom 650 both setup for travel.

David.


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## MarkM

List price of those machines seem close until you add in what you get with the GS and what you don't with the GT.  Add the Canadian Dollar into it then our wonderful GST tax and your almost up to 2000$ more in Monopoly money.
One thing I really consider valuable is the foot brake on the Gs.   Ya I know you can get decent braking with a vfd but if the situation ever arises your foot will be better than trying to reach for the emergency stop.  I will be alone so it a big consideration.
My battle is that I really like the Gs.  Even love the look of it with the Handle on the chip pan and red foot brake.  Wanted a 1440 from the get go.  It's just that I am not a rich guy and don't really know what is ahead of me trying to get myself going.  It takes huge amounts of money to be a full rounded shop.  That 1340 GT has only been praised and know it is of good enough quality that it would be there for me down the rd.  It takes most of my cash and then I am stagnate for some time.  A small mill drill probably an rf 31. Ya I know a round column but I have a solution for that.  A tormak precision grinder with some jigs and then I could at least do a bit of work and start to put some money back in. 
The pm 1236 saves me a tonne of cash and I think it looks like a great machine.  Some of the forums members do great work with it and have seen pro shops using them and some for over a decade and still going. 
In the end I would like to have a manual and a cnc of each a lathe and mill.  The pm 1236 would be a good candidate for that down the rd.  A modern day Standard Modern would be my dream lathe.
Too many thoughts going on in my head.  Come to the conclusion nothing is perfect.
I read some thing some time ago.  A Machinist asked a forum how to get going to set up shop and one quote from a fellow who goes by the name of Wigitmaster has stuck with me.  " Don't worry about perfection. Worry about progress or you'll never get off the ground" It was like a light went off.  Going to put that saying in my shop so I can read it every time I walk in.
Here I am with this exact scenario. 
I apologize for not proof reading a few times and you all getting more then one email.  I'll be better.  I just get so caught up in this and I guess a little too excited.
I am going to give myself the wkend and Monday buying a lathe.
Anyone want to buy a Klr 650 LOL


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## jbolt

Sounds like there is a GS in your future. 

I agree 100% about the foot brake. I use mine all the time and not just for emergencies.  I have electronic braking and think it is fantastic but I have had it fault and when it does it freewheels. 

The pull out chip tray is also very nice to have. Makes machine cleanup easier and there is more room for swarf.

I also recently started using the coolant system. When I bought my lathe that was one of the features I wanted but when I got the lathe I was hesitant to use it thinking it would bee to much work to deal with he coolant. I have a CNC mill that uses flood coolant so I'm well versed in using it and the good and bad that can go along with it.. Well a lathe isn't nearly as messy as a mill where the spindle speeds and coolant pressure are much higher. I now find myself using a lot for certain jobs that benefit from it.

If your goal is to start doing work for pay then I think it makes sense to get a machine that has the most capability within your budget. 

I struggled with spending 7K on a base model lathe and then another 3K adding a DRO, upgraded chucks and a VFD conversion. I do customer work on the side to help pay for my hobbies. The features and extended capabilities of the PM-1440GT over my old lathe that was smaller have allowed me to take on jobs I would have previously had to turn down. The lathe has essentially paid for itself at this point. 

Good luck on your decision.


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## Old Squier

I've got the 1340GT.  Terrific  machine.  It's tough to do better.  Have to say, though, I would have bought the 1440GS had it been available when I bought mine.

With this said, I gotta say --as good as the PM machines are and as great as the warranty and customer service are -- if I were doing it over. I would buy a better quality used machine.  I would be looking for a clean Mori, Takisawa, Graziano, SAG, Cazaneuve, Hwacheon, Blue Line, Colchester or similar.  

The PMs, great as they are, are "hobby" class machines.  If you aspire to do machine work for a profit, you need a serious piece of iron -- heavy, rigid, high precision.

Try to find a machine with top quality chucks, taper attachment and QCTP.  Additional tooling is sometimes offered.  

Go to Surplus Record .com, and Google the above brands "for sale".

Then, pick up an Abene Universal Mill (Or any one of several universals) or a decent Bridgeport or clone and you're in business.

Whatever you do, don't blow all your cash on machines.  Leave a LOT of $$$ for tooling.

Best of luck to ya!

Squire 



Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma,  Tahlequah OK


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## MarkM

I think when it comes right down to it.  The real question is should I buy that 1340 GT.  I haven't heard a bad thing about it and in my head I feel it would be there for me the rest of my life if it's taken care of.  The only down fall is maybe its weight,  wish it threaded a few more threads,  and the fact the feed box is not in an oil bath.  Three phase,  single phase doesn't matter right now.  In the end three phase will be it but now it's the lathe I am interested in.
It has always been the machine people refer to and all have seemed satisfied.
I wish I could take the time and have the means to pick up a used machine.  It would probably cost me a fair chunk of change to get it to me and moving across a few provinces in a few years is a consideration.  I am not very comfortable doing it sight unseen.  Your right oldsquier about spending too much money on machines as they are just half the cost.  This is why I have considered the pm 1236.  Not an industrial machine but what some have done with it is surprising and impressive.   One of our forum members for example has mentioned his work with stainless prop shafts and for example the finish of his threads after his 3phase and vfd was great.  He has done a fair bit of work on his pm1236.  I've done my fair share of prop shafts and threading 316 can show signs of weakness especially on your bigger diameter courser threads.  . 
I haven't been able to sleep past four in the morning for some time now.  It's crazy frustrating not sleeping.  Get up to go to the washroom and then I start thinking about a lathe.  Monday I am getting this over with.
I am leaning towards the 1340 gt.  Talked to Matt again and I value his thoughts and opinion.  Told him straight I'll be buying a machine from him.  Day in Day out long term Yes he said go to the 1340GT.
I wish someone would chime in and talk a bit about there well setup pm 1236.  The Gs may be too close to the Gt in price after getting a quote for a 1340gt.  The 1236 makes enough difference I think to maybe take a chance on the Chinese machine and keep some cash back for maybe a small mill drill and some tooling.


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## Tozguy

Mark, could part of your dilema come from not having a clear objective?

The requirements for a hobby lathe versus a money making machine can be quite different. The budget required to set up shop could be quite different as well. If you plan to play in a local 'niche market'  it would help to do a bit of research on the players already there and what type of work is available. 

The choice between hobby or business has to made early as they lead in different directions regarding equipment and finances.


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## MarkM

I moved out here to take on a machinist job many moons ago.  I am the only real machinist with a license around here.  I know I can find work.  The place where I used to work was too slow for a full time machinist.  They have a welder that machines a bit.  I spent most of my time at the mill as a mechanic.  Took another job as a Zamboni driver for full time employment.  I want to set up a hobby shop that will evolve into something to help out financially when I am older . It may take a decade to fill the shop.  I want two principle machines a lathe a mill, some line boring equipment,  a Tormak grinder and all the supporting machines like saws and such.  Moving in about four years.  I have a plan.  Sold one of my motorcycles and another is up for sale.  Need to get the house ready to sell.  Want to move in a few years with a shipping container with some machines to get going.  Will be moving to the Toronto area where I started my machining and know a whole whack of people in the industry plus its a huge metropolis.  A great place to find a machine if I need one and I truly believe if I am willing to put the effort in it will be up to me if I am successful or not.  Plenty of opportunity if person is willing.   If I don't borrow I can let it grow.   Might have to take on a machinist job for awhile.  This is also why I want some equipment.  To get my skills and math back up to snuff.
A terrible year for me.  Mother passed suddenly and a good friend who is my future wifes brother passed away as well at 46 years old of a heroin overdose.  I need the mental escape to help get me through these times and miss making chips.


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## Tozguy

MarkM said:


> I moved out here to take on a machinist job many moons ago.  I am the only real machinist with a license around here.  I know I can find work.  The place where I used to work was too slow for a full time machinist.
> A terrible year for me.  Mother passed suddenly and a good friend who is my future wifes brother passed away as well at 46 years old of a heroin overdose.  I need the mental escape to help get me through these times and miss making chips. If I don't borrow I can let it grow.
> 
> Moving in about four years.  I have a plan. Will be moving to the Toronto area where I started my machining and know a whole whack of people in the industry plus its a huge metropolis.  A great place to find a machine if I need one and I truly believe if I am willing to put the effort in it will be up to me if I am successful or not.  Plenty of opportunity if person is willing.   If I don't borrow I can let it grow.   Might have to take on a machinist job for awhile.  This is also why I want some equipment.  To get my skills and math back up to snuff.
> 
> A great place to find a machine if I need one and I truly believe if I am willing to put the effort in it will be up to me if I am successful or not.  Plenty of opportunity if person is willing.



Mark, sorry to read about your trying times. I understand now why there is a sense of urgency to your project. It sounds like you need a hobby real quick. It also sounds like you want to avoid be financially strapped which would only add to your discomfort. Fair enough.
There are better days ahead for you I am sure.

I humbly submit the following regarding the longer term:

You have been away from the machinist market for a while now. Even in a huge market like Toronto, your chances of employment would be greatest if you are qualified on modern machinery (CNC a must). There is no way you can equip yourself between now and then to update your skills by yourself on a hobby approach let alone move it all to Toronto in a few years. That's why I suggest that you separate your immediate objectives from your long term ones. A lot can happen in four years or more.  

The problem with setting up your own business is that there are already a lot of people already established who won't take kindly to sharing the market with you unless it is to let you pick up the work nobody else wants. Even in large markets like Toronto you should expect awesome competition. So be diligent about separating facts from wishful thinking on getting your share. 

Start by relearning the ropes. I suggest that you use your contacts to find out which employers offer training on the job, target a few of them and learn their hiring criteria. Your machinist experience would certainly be a plus on your resumé. While you are employed and secure financially, continue to evaluate the prospects of striking off on your own based on objective observations and how things look for you at that point in time. 

Success in anything usually does not come without hard work. However hard work is no guarantee of success when it comes to business. Running a successful business requires smarts of a different nature. If you have never been in business for yourself you will be amazed at how much non-machining and unpleasant work there is to do. 

I apologize if this is wasting your time but hopefully this might help you get some sleep, if only because it is so boring to read. 
Good luck Mark.


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## MarkM

I appreciate what you say and your thoughts are much appreciated also.  There is no desperation there at all I have been thinking about this for a couple years.  It's time to start somewhere.  A lathe is a good start.   I realize it may not be a pure industrial machine.  I need to be able to hit numbers.  Be there down for me when I am tooled up and supported properly.  The Liang Dei Taiwan machines are from a few decades ago.  Not the biggest but still its there.  A reliable machine to rely on if a used machine is considered since it may be a project.  I'd get something huge though that was cheap and right now moving weight costs money too.
When I talk about getting my skills up to snuff I mean it's also a hobby and for fun.  I want to take on some things I haven't done over the years like make a reduction box for myself.. 
I know cnc seems to be the be all and end all but there are plenty of things done on manual machines.  I also realize cnc has to be part of the equation in this modern day of machine tools.  My first five years when I went through my apprentiship was in a screw machine shop,  All I could take was a General Machist app. course.  No Screw Machine Course offered.  So I was a cam, gear,clutches and time all those tools kinda guy.  Mostly single spindle Browne and Sharpes but also some six spindle Davenports spitting out parts sometimes in four seconds but hardly past 12 to 15 with multiple slides and turning turrets with milling attachments with auto feed all timed through cams , gears , trip dogs, mechanical clutches so I kind had an attitude like who needs cnc and and only through schooling do I have the experience which is zilch so I wanna go play and retro even maybe a rong fu rf31 with the round column and run a parallel shaft in a linear bear tied to the headstock for fun.  and maybe learn a few thing and the round column because there are plenty of them and I may crash so parts are plenty.
As far as making money.  I have a great job and work for a great town that I don't want to give up.  My shifts don't start until three in the winter with five off after nine.  I used to service alot of the Aquaculture Industry and Vessels in the Area.  Three Inch Propshafts through the spindle after a half hour or so of balancing the rest of it on some homemade v stands another fifteen feet or so.  All manual shop.  The guy I worked for was Crafty.  I had respect for him.  He could do work for people and save them money in the mean time.  What a place to work.  I came from the city, and full shops and this big garage turned into a shop with quite a few machine tools.  He would go to work and I would work at his place.  A feed barge would be dropped off with a crane and I'd be told new pins and bushing and not one rusty bolt was turned.  Looked at it and had at her. Learned quite a bit there doing mostly one off repair work.  There also the guy up the rd that needs a shaft repaired.  Have a small welder and now a lathe.  Plan on making my own things in the winter and hitting the flea markets in the summer.  If anything it will help get the word out.
I come here to an open forum for your opinions and I know myself I may forget sometimes.   I  know I put myself out there and always wonder how things are taken but value everything your are all saying.  It is good that the negative possibilities are put out there for me to see.  So in no any way form is it taken the wrong way.  In fact thank you!  It is a hugely costly endeavor.  That is why I want to hone my skills over time.  I think I have enough on the table now but I want to be like that old crafty Scotsman I first started with.  Who told me to stand and watch the machine for a month before I do anything else.  I couldn't sweep the floor unless he told me to.  I think there Is a market for a Crafty Machinist.  Especially if the machines are paid and everything is gravy.  I'll see what I end up with.  With what I can put back in.  Don't want to borrow money. 
I'll sum it up.  A while ago I read something and a Light Went On.  It was a quote from a fellow that Uses the name WigitMaster. It has become my Motto.  and I am so greatful for his wisdom in this saying. "Don't worry about perfection, worry about progress. Or you'll never get off the ground".
So I am going to buy the 1340gt since it is the most professional machine I can I reach.  I am going to have fun along the way that is why I joined this forum.  I don't want the mill Calling me four in the morning telling me they have a machine down a grab my measuring instruments and see them at the gate by 5.  No I wanna play a bit too.  Don't need that kinda stress again.
Thankyou All.  I know I have a Journey ahead of me!


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## Tozguy

MarkM said:


> As far as making money. I have a great job and work for a great town that I don't want to give up. I don't want the mill Calling me four in the morning telling me they have a machine down a grab my measuring instruments and see them at the gate by 5. No I wanna play a bit too. Don't need that kinda stress again. I think there Is a market for a Crafty Machinist.



Ok thanks. I understand your project better now.
You have a lot more going for you there in St-Stephen than I first imagined. I feel better for you already (except for the part about moving to TO).


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## MarkM

After all the space out here I couldn't handle T.O.  Out of the city for sure.  Orillia but you never know where life may take you.  I could win the lottery and buy that 16 60 Standard Modern and kick back and fly back and Visit the Girlfriends Grand Kids.  I don't really want to move but I think it's the right thing to do. Grew up in North York so I better be able to escape in my own world and make some chips.
Actually working on an Older Toyota for expedition travel.  Before we plant our feet in the Golden Horseshoe were going to take six months off and go travel.  Shipping Container left on a friends farm.


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## Eddyde

Hi Mark, I'm in a similar situation. I have been shopping for a "new" lathe for over a year. Ultimately I would like a used industrial grade machine in great condition at a reasonable price... so far that has been elusive...  If I buy new it would be the PM 1440 GT, However, if budget gets tight the 1340 GT will suffice. I don't think you can go wrong with a PM machine.
Good luck with your endeavor.


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## MarkM

Good Morning,  I'll try not to write a novel today.  Can't believe how caught up in it I get and off on a ramble.  Pretty much set on the 1340gt and ponder a thought that I may throw out there if I may. 
The pm1236 is such a value at 2/3rds the cost of a pm1340gt with a dro.  Almost as capable.  It does come with a lot of stuff but most would need to be replaced but it can be done over time and understand it may need some tuning and has been proven with this setup.  With 3 phase and vfd  which can be done at a very reasonable cost. It would be a nice little runner I think. Don't need a vector motor with 18 speeds.  It saves quite a bit which I can help gather tooling and such or put it towards a machine down the rd. 
This is more like Devil's Advocate here.  Pretty set on the 1340gt I thought I 'd put the thought out there for kicks and giggles.


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## kdecelles

No brainer - get as much machine as u can without having to hunt your own food.  

This is a 20 year decision , think about the future


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## richl

Well mark, I guess I have you to blame, I just pulled the trigger on the pm1440gs w dro.  It will be replacing a enco 1340. Really wanted to get more info from current owners before my purchase but the specs read well, it's a lot of lathe fore, some really nice upgrades

Best to you, and your new lathe as well as your new adventure!

Rich


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## MarkM

I came home today planning on ordering a lathe.  Have a quick look at the Ipad and I see KD's quote.  Makes me think a bit and decide to call a company I almost bought a Taiwanese 1440 out of California but couldn't make a deal.  He said call in a few weeks you may get a different answer.  So I called.  He tells me they have a return in for a steal.  Apparently they couldn't pay the Bill so they returned it and I guess they made money on the stocking fees and want it gone.
Someone was supposed to be there Friday and again today and never showed. He said to me "Money Talks" but he had to notify him.  So if he doesn't answer the email or show up by the time I get home tomorrow.  I going to go hungry for a couple weeks even thought it stretches my budget beyond anything I thought.  I'd be a Baboon not to get it.  This machine is more lathe than the original 1440.  Sounds crazy but I don't want to jinx it so I going to keep it hush and not say what it is. Either way going to order a lathe tomorrow.  Hope this time it's for real.
No sleep tonight!
RI I still think about the Gs.  A great looking lathe


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## MarkM

The saga continues.  Again come home and ready to order.  This time figure out the rate.  Holy Cow! Jeez more than I thought,  Oh well I am ready to take my lumps I guess.  Lifetime and no need to think about another manual lathe again.  Taiwan built machine.one pc. cast. 2300lbs.  a fair bit of threading capabilities which I am sure some of the pitches would match a few worm leads or at least be in a tolerant range to match some DP and Module threads.
They don't want to sell it yet.  Even though he hasn't showed up.  They have spoke on the phone.  At least the dealer is a stand up guy!  Twice he hasn't showed up and they weren't happy after having to rearrange there shop to display.  Then I say ok call PM 1340gt here I come and decide I'd like to talk to Matt about the Cast Iron stand and a couple other things for down the rd. Well he was tied up so no luck there. 
Decide to call the first place back and ask him if by chance it doesn't work out give me a call and he said he will give him until Friday now.  Man I think FRIDAY!  HOLY COW.  more great sleep.
So I sat down and looked at some pm 1440 GS pictures.
Life can sure throw you some curve balls!


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## MarkM

Good day,  Well the lathe which was an Eisen 1440 ge with a 9 inch bed 2300lbs with a one peace cast stand.    Another Liang Dei Machine from Taiwan. 1400 rpm had a noise in the gear train.  It was a returned item and this is still my dream 1440 lathe and am sure it is an awesome machine.  who knows what happened to it a customer had it and returned it. Maybe not the lathes fault.  Gears can easily be damaged. I am sure they are great.    It was a little more than the gt with a dro.  I should have known.  I don't have luck like that.  Thinking it was a deal of a lifetime even with the dollar. Car Bike or anything.
So now what?  It's a harder decision than I thought.  Our Cdn. dollar is brutal 36 cents off the dollar and add tax.  Makes me think a lot about the 1236.  Well set up proven but the Taiwan thing is hard to annoy!  All Pm machines are great value.  As the price climbs it makes it harder.  I guess I should have never said by this day I'll buy a lathe.  It's hard to lay down cash I guess.


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## jbolt

What was the noise? 

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## MarkM

The sound I heard at first thought it was a noise in the shop from another machine.  It was inconsistent which makes me nervous.  Sounds like a bag of marbles for a few seconds and then goes away and comes back.  Every single other rpm is butter smooth.
I'd buy someone lunch if they were willing to go have a look for me and take the cover off?  They are in Ontario California.  I wish I could look at it but at this distance I can't take a chance.
Kind of sounded like when you were a kid and put a hockey card or baseball card on your bicycle to flap against the spokes.


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## MarkM

lunch dinner and gas for two.  How's that.


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## jbolt

That's unfortunate. On my PM-1440GT I get a little growl in one gear due to the shift arm detent location not being quite right so the adjacent gears rub a little. If I put pressure on the shift lever the noise goes away. At the next oil change I will pull the cover and see what needs to be done to fix it.


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## MarkM

Thanks Jbolt,  Would it be your 1400 rpm by chance?  Every other rpm is smooth.  I believe there the same gearbox.


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## jbolt

Mine is a position M-1 which is 510 RPM. 

The headstock and gearbox are different though they may share a few parts. The Eisen 1440GE is a little larger with a wider bed and headstock.


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## MarkM

Thanks for taking the time to look.  I think it may be wise to let it go and stop dreaming.  Hoping it may be a simple thing like a roll pin out of the shift fork off the shaft.


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## jbolt

Without seeing it first hand to evaluate the condition its a tough call unless the price is discounted enough to make any unforeseen pain worth your while. If it is being sold as-is with no warranty then I would expect a pretty deep discount just for that.


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## mksj

I would have somebody do a video with it running in the different gears, also in the gear with the noise, have them apply light pressure on the gear selector in either direction as it may indicate a fork alignment. If it is a dealer (or for that matter the seller), then they should pop the head and look inside and see if there is any damage and rotate the spindle in the noisy gear. If they will not I would walk away. You could easily put a VFD on it and never have to use that gear, but if you wanted to sell it at a later point and it had bad gear or something more serious, then you have paid a lot for a boat anchor. A bit of history on the machine would be helpful, if it is new and who is selling it. The 1440 GE is quite a bit beefier than the 1440E or 1440GT, it is also 1000lbs heavier.

I have a PM1340GT and there is one gear selection that is definitely noisier than all the other gear settings. Since I use a VFD, for the most part I just use the H and L gear selector for 2 speeds, everything else is done with the VFD.


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## MarkM

Yes the Ge is quite a machine.  The nine inch bed and the one pc. cast really make it a game changer.  All of my current 12 13 and 14 swing lathes I am looking at are in the same ball park on the bed width.  A little over 7 and maybe a half inch or so. I actually think the 1236 has an advantage here being lower.  In all accounts if they had the same mass I think the 1236 would be the most rigid being shorter from spindle to bed ratio.
Before purchase we went through the rpm range and other functions.  It was new just returned from a customer.  It is a Liang Dei machine.  The fourth one I almost bought.  Have asked about cover removal.  Not sure how they are set up.   I know they hired a machinist to come and run the machine and all is fine other than this one rev range.  It is inconsistent as well which tells me there is something in there that is lazy and not secured.  Me thinks a rotating gear hitting the fork and the fork gets passed its balance point and in a lazy manner falls again and makes a bit of contact with a gear and knocked back up past that point again and the cycle will continue until it is fixed or it starts its demise. 
Crazy to take a chance on it but have you heard the saying he who never took the chance.  Never had the chance.  It really is a nice lathe and they have come down thousands and willing to pay half of shipping as well.  First class company from my first phone call over four months ago.  Very knowledgeable about every single machine I asked about. Theres Eisen and everyone elses.
Unless they rip the cover off and laugh about what it is and call me and offer the same price I am going to get the pm 1440GS.  I sent and email off this morning stating what I wanted with the machine.
My reasoning for the 1440. A PM 1440 with NSK Japanese spindle bearings. Wanted a brake.  I always wanted a 1440 from the get go thinking it can do a bit more and with my intentions it makes sense.  The mass to help with interrupted cuts on repaired welded shafts.  The two inch bore and another stat with a 1440 is the extra two inches over the saddle.  Not all too often but rollers Augers and such on occasion, maybe a bit of prep work for welders on some pipes and flange.  The one stat that that led me over the line with the Chinese and Taiwan Lathe is the Fact the Pm 1440GS is the only machine I can afford that will cut a full range of DP and Module Threads with its true devoted gearbox.   It is some thing I just want to go and play with.  Worms and Worm Gears,  Have Never done them. First question I asked Matt on my first phone call some time ago.  Which machine does DP and Module threads.  HIs answer was none. All crazy money.  Then the Gs and G0709 show up. HMMM!  I know a big learning curve but that s half the fun for me.   I'd like to make a reduction box for kicks and giggles and maybe help that blueberry farmer with his farm.
I am not expecting it to be a lifer like I first thought I would purchase.  I will try to do a bit more maintenance.  Eventually I would like three phase and a vfd new chucks and tooled up with more machines.  Don't we all.  I thought I was going to get a machine from Taiwan but It would have pushed me a bit too far.  The Gs is ready and I can wire up the garage. and have a bit left over for some windows.  I don't need to get anything else for now.  Maybe one day I'll look for a Standard Modern or something.  Or buy another 1440gs since I'll be completely ready for a scaled down version with hopefully having chucks being tooled up and maybe a vector motor to tow.  One can dream.  I may not get there but going to have fun trying and not go broke doing it. 
Just going to be playing for some time like all of you.  Don't know Jack but love to learn. and escape into a project.  Good for the soul. 
Thanks for all of your wisdom.  Yes I may be Crazy! Been told that a few times.


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## richl

I like your thinking mark! For me, I would really appreciate having a vocal and experienced active member here to steal ideas from, and help inspire me to do some interesting mods with my machine. The pm1440gs reads on the data sheet to be a nice machine, except for the lack of variable speed, it comes very close to being the lathe I have been looking for the past three years (yes a wider bed and more weight would have also been on the list).

They told me last Monday delivery in 4-5 weeks, so if everything is on schedule, it's now 3-4 weeks. I have a lot of cleaning in the shop to do, a couple lathes to clear out, a bunch of old benches, cabinets, stands and misc. New cabinets to place, tooling, rearranging... it's fun times again! Possibly a manual mill to diy cnc gonna be a nice fab shop for personal and 1 off small scale projects.

Keep the energy and enthusiasm!
Rich


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## MarkM

I think the GS has a perfect speed box for a vfd.  It could use a bit more selection as it is now with the rpm range but it still has a decent selection in the lower rpm range.  A few speed options for threading if you want to push it a bit with carbide or turn your tool upside down and run the spindle backwards for higher speed threading.   With just an 8 speed box a vfd would compliment it really well.  You would have all the finesse you would need for rpm manipulation and the 8 speeds to spread you out and no need to purchase a vector motor since theres no need to alter the hrz more than 15 up or down from its 60hrz base motor speed.  With a three phase motor the vfd the torque boost, and all the function of the vfd I think it would be a great machine.  The soft start would help out with longevity as well.  One day.
Will it last or how long will it be able to be used for precise machine work.  It's not so much the tenths since I'll mostly file or emery cloth at that stage anyways but need it to be able to at least be trusted to manage a .001" tolerance.  For me the maintenance program will have to be stepped up and will go through the machine starting with replacing all the hardware.  Were supposed to be machinist and we should be able to fix make or maintain a machine unless the ways are shot.  I figure If the maintenance program is stepped up and make some charts so all those lovely oiling ports are all used frequently and if something starts to need attention get to it and rectify it before it starts its demise.  
I received an email from Matt stating the 1440gs with DRO will be in a few weeks and for me which sucks is that if I want a Gs without a DRO They will be in the next shipment Sept/Oct.  I don't want to spend the money on a Dro now and Sept/Oct is along time away for me.  Going to have to think about this one now.  It's just that Sept/Oct gets close to the winter and have seen many not receive there machines on time.  Not the importers fault.  Just the way it is.  Once winter sets in my garage is closed to getting a lathe in.  I have a 94 Toyota pickup that is a project and she will be in the garage and in the way for winter.  Probably apart being worked on.   I need to purchase my needs now.  My wants will come once I am a little more rounded as a shop.


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## Kiwi Canuck

Good time to pay your deposit as the exchange rate is going in the right direction. (mid market was low 1.32's this morning.)

Also set up an account with a company like EX exchange to wire the money to QMT which is usually a few points better than the regular bank rates with no fees. (Check with your bank first to see what their rates and fees are)

Matt will give you a better deal if you wire the funds as well rather than CC.

One last thing, let Matt know about your situation if you haven't already, he maybe able to help you make your decision by offering some concession on the DRO.

David.


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## MarkM

What a Roller Coaster Ride!  Like I said earlier, Life can throw you curve Balls.  I think I was committed to a few machines and willing to accept there offerings.  A few times ready to spend some money and for some reason it didn't pan out.
Well I finally committed to a machine.  After thinking and thinking about my purchase.  Probably shaking a few heads I am sure.  I decided to take the plunge and get the lifer in the end.  In the end I decided if I was going to spend crazy money on the gt. Since I ist a lot of coin for a garage with an ambitious monkey that hasn't turned a dial in over 14 years..  I might as well spend a bit more and get exactly what I want. I have been hearing it since I started to think about getting back into machining.  Get the biggest you can and even push out a bit.  KD's saying in this thread about going hungry and it is a twenty year decision really hit home.   It is for me.  So I am getting the Eisen 1440 GE with the three phase five horse motor.  A brand new one, not the one I first looked at.  Going to need a vfd.  Going to take my time on it all so don't care if it takes a few months to educate myself and go through the machine.    In the end it is way more money than I was going to put out what I thought when I started this thread.  A seed was planted when I almost bought the first one.   I think it is what I was looking for.  I guess those windows are going to have to wait.


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## mksj

Very nice machine, really a beast. At this spend level you want to make sure you are getting a functional machine and a warranty. I was looking into the same lathe as a possible VFD conversion for someone else.

You can do a simple VFD install and use the forward/reverse contactors to switch the VFD directions after stripping the high voltage wiring. There are are very few single phase 5Hp input VFDs, but what is common practice is to use a 3 phase VFD which is derated to run on single phase. Rule of thumb is to take the motor rating amps (something like 15A for 5Hp) and multiple it X 1.73 to get the VFD sizing in CT output amps. This works out to around 26A, but in this case you will never be pushing the motor anywhere near full Hp.  You can fudge this down a bit by adding a DC choke, which is what I have on my mill VFD. The choke smooths the rectified AC pulses going to the capacitors, thus decreasing their stress. So the minimum 3 phase VFD would be 7.5Hp, the standard would be a 10Hp. There are other considerations such as the coolant pump being 3 phase. Usually the control system runs off of two legs of the power with a step down transformer. You cannot just connect the VFD to the machine input and have it run, if you want to do that get an RPC.They do make a VFD version of this lathe, but it is significantly more expensive.

There a three 5Hp single phase VFDs that I am aware of
The usual Huanyang (Chinese) VFDs, although I am a bit skeptical of their single phase ratings I would probably suggest a 7.5Hp version. http://www.gohz.com/5hp-vfd 
PolySpede PC1-50  https://www.driveswarehouse.com/pc1-50-2123
Yaskawa CIMR-VUBA0018FAA 

Otherwise you might consider a 7.5 or 10Hp 3 phase 230V VFD, some allow single phase input with a derating so you need to check the manufacturer.
So something like the WJ200-055LF probably with a DC choke or the WJ200-075LF


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## MarkM

Eisen have been willing to double there warranty on every lathe I talked to them about and way more than double on there electronics.  Always had an answer, never referred me to the manual or website and willing to deal.
The five horse motor was a big consideration. As nice as it may be expense comes along with it.  Everything is more expensive and I really don't need a 5hp.  Three is more than enough. 
The little research I have done and the few conversation I had with electricians about it is that I could either run my coolant pump parallel with the lathe motor with its own switch off the vfd.  Get a cheap vfd for itself.  or buy a 100$ single phase pump.  Not to concerned.
I really didn't want to go three phase at this stage because I thought I needed to educate myself and feel the need to be able to do things on my own.  Do as much as I can myself without dishing out money.  I knew in the end I wanted the three phase and I'd be a fool to have to purchase a motor of this size down the rd.  Be looking at around 1200$ so I figure it's best now and take as long as it takes with the vfd.  Trying to be a one man show I need to be able to manage my own equipment and this Is one of those times where I am going to have to accept the fact I have some learning to do.
There are a few dedicated single to three phase vfds for a motor of this size but many three to three phase can be run off single.  I plan on using a 10hp vfd to help take the abuse it may get with the peaks and valleys.  Really just looking for a functional lathe at this moment.  I even thought about the possibility of just using a three hp motor and am willing if need be but there isn't so I am pretty stoked.  Thanks MKSJ for the time to post and research on suitable drives.  Going to be an adventure I am sure.


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## kdecelles

Where will the unit ship from and what does that cost roughly if you don't mind me asking?


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## kdecelles

If I followed this thread closely, you are in east coast of Canada....., eisen is in Ontario ca?


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## MarkM

Yes that is right KD.  I am on the Bay of Fundy in St. Stephen New Brunswick. I am one mile from the US border which is Calais Maine.  Eisen are from Ontario California.  I will be getting it delivered to Calais at a feed store that accepts parcels for us Canucks and they have a forklift to boot.  Five bills or so is the standard rate but a different situation.  It don't think it is bad at all if you want to come through the border.  I believe Canada has no duty on lathes thinking let it in and things will be made here now.  Your closer as well.  If your not in a rush shipping probably your best bet to Vancouver.


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## MarkM

Now I have to figure out how to get it in the garage.  Dig a trench 140 feet from the garage to the house. Get wired up.  Cut up a Ten foot wood work bench for room.  Set up the lathe and figure out the vfd.  I think it may be wise to accept the fact It may be some time before I make some chips. 
Any ideas on getting a 2300lb lathe in a garage.  Thinking of getting a wrecker with a flat bed and another regular tow truck to get it inside and from there I can inch it around with a crow bar.  I've moved around screw machines like this before.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  I don't think I have enough ceiling height for an engine hoist with the straps and all.


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## richl

I moved a couple machines up an inclined driveway with a come a long anchor bolted into the concrete floor. Some pipes, a few big pinch bars made easy work of it for me.

Ymmv
Rich


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## kdecelles

I have a two ton gantry crane so my lathe was simple......  my gut says that  this is a job for hydraulics ...... hire a service?     




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## MarkM

Good day, Did you use an adhesive or just your common anchor bolts with a plate with some surface area?
I have been thinking about hiring someone but no real riggers and not sure about that one so still need to be creative.  I don't mind taking a lot of time.  I'd rather inch it and just keep it low and secure.  Maybe just put it down somewhat half in on a rigid plate and use toe jacks and I do like the control of a come a long.  Maybe an anchor then.  In the right spot it could be base for something down the rd. for a hoist of some sort. 
The shipping is actually a bit more.  Caught us both by surprise.  We looked into another 1440 e some time ago and both parties thought it would be the same well it is a min 800$ but Eisen is willing to pay half the shipping costs and I am in no immediate rush  so a little more investigation and maybe a few more machines to come east to reduce costs. More so we want to make sure a third party won't be used.
The one thing that worried about this lathe is the costs and how easily it can snowball, but then again machining is crazy expensive. Just have to make the right choices.  Who knows If I can.


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## kdecelles

My lathe is an antique von wyck (circa 1903-1908), all cast on legs.  It weighs north of 1500 pounds, and I was able to pivot it using a 4 ton floor jack and a block of cedar (telephone pole). Once it was balanced on block (mid way under ways) I could slide it with some effort

Completely different from your situation as you done have expanses of space underneath 


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## Eddyde

I moved my 2,300 lb. mill using 3' lengths of 1/2" steel pipe a 5' wrecking bar and a 6' J bar. I had to put some heavy angle iron under the base to create a flat surface to bear on the pipes but it moved pretty easily. I didn't need any jacks as the bars provided enough leverage to lift the machine high enough to get the angle under it and it up on the pipes. I did use an electric winch to pull it off the lift gate of the truck, I used a long piece of flat webbing through a window and out a door as an anchor point.


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## MarkM

Thanks Eddyde ,  Thinking more and more about this and just keep it simple.


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## MarkM

Well looks like it may be your typical machine tool it will get there when it gets there.  Being the distance it is it isn't just the price which is a concern on both parties although the price isn't cheap.  It's the worry of third party carriers and being shifted about more than need be being a top heavy item.  So a little more investigation or even wait for a few more machines to be headed east to also help with the cost.  Eisen are willing to pay half the top rate if it was my wish and send it right now. From the start I was just hoping to have it by the winter.  Read quite a bit about deliveries so figured to almost expect it and its easier to take that way.  They have been great so I figure we might as well wait to cut the costs a bit and to help stabilize the load with less shifting about.
So I am going to buy a Tormek T8 as my first machine.  A Wet water precision grinder with an array of jigs.  Figured I would be getting this way later.  I want to do sharpening as well.  A tool for a buck here and there and also a way to drum up business as well.
Plan on doing knives, chipper blades, mason bits, and your general twists drills.  I work at an arena complex with a dining rm, ballroom, dormatories and cooks and chefs are hired all the time for weddings and functions.  There paying 80$ a pop for knives and the few I've asked said they'd use the service.  Small town so there's only so many that are hired.  A fella I know has a 120hp cummins chipper that grinds his blades with a hand grinder and breaks things all the time.  So I figure it is what it is and can run solo for now.  If I can make 200$ in a year great.  Maybe 400$ next year and help to pay for a few little things but also to get some relationships going for some machine work down the road when I am capable.


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## MarkM

Good day all,  well finally have all the nitty gritty done  and should have the lathe in the garage the first week of aug.  I have to say i am super impressed with Eisen.  Got the final invoice today and another 300$ under what i agreed to.  I think they feel my pain with the dollar.  Also the other day in conversation i am asked what i am comfortable at paying for shipping.  I hesitae and he says how about six hundred and we ll cover the rest. Well the rest is about 1200$.  They won t send it with a cheap carrier. Want to make sure it get s here across the country safe.  All total under eight grand.  A few hundred more than the return i looked at earlier.  
I ordered that tormek t8 and quite a few jigs.  Have a few chipper blades lined up.  Yes a crazy expensive hobby that hopefully can pay for it self.


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## Kiwi Canuck

Good news Mark, and the dollar just got about 5% better in the last few weeks.

David


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## kdecelles

So jealous


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## MarkM

Yesterday I took the time to go through my tool box and see what i have  to work on the lathe.  I was pleasantly surprised after over fifteen years away from maching I still have some hss, carbide, even some form tools i made way back and a few thousand dollars worth of measuring instrument and some setup equipment like parallells and such.  It is funny but my very first day of starting my  apprentiship  my mentor Scottish boss gave me an eight inch Mitutoyo beam scale caliper.  Thought i needed the dial then the electronic caliper and in the end when i need to trust my  calipers it was and will always be that beam scale caliper I went to. For some reason it s the one i trust and always go to.  So for now i need to get a drill and a tailstock.  Looking for a decent three bearing mt3 tailstock live center. Any suggestions.
I have to say this has become a pretty scary  Endeavor.   I spent way too much money on the lathe.  I didn t want to feel that pressure and i must admit i feel i need  to make money now and that isn t what i wanted.  Still,want to keep it as a hobby but man it seems to take off and before you know it your in deep debt. Almost went out and bought the rf31'rong fu mill/drill and came to my senses and want to stick to doing some milling on the lathe.  I figure i will learn quite a bit about setup and also will stretch my abilites after some fixtures are made to mill on the lathe.  Man i can ramble. Just super excited.  Have a good day all.
Also could anyone tell me if there is any benefit or a downfall to using a derated 10hp vfd or use a proper single to three phase vfd.  I am wondering on the hitachi wj200 10hp version or the true single to three phase polyspede 5hp vfd.  Anyone with experience with polyspede. They are an american company and i do try to buy American over,imports when i can even though i am Canadian.  It seems like a decent vfd nut i am clueless at this stage,with vfd's. I believe it is the pc-150


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## kdecelles

My wife and I say that if you don't feel sick to your stomach then you made the wrong choice, because you played it safe

Hang in there, relax, take stock of the key important things in life, family, friends

I rooting for you from Alberta, where things are pretty bleak for many right now.  


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## MarkM

Thanks KD.  Someone once said to me if it isn t going to change your life don t worry about it.  Still going to sleep in the same bed with the same woman and **** on the same pot.   I knew after thinking about doing this for a few years it isn t going to happen overnight and it would be harder and take longer then i could ever imagine so I have to keep an even keel and enjoy the ride no matter what kind of curve balls get thrown and keep the finances in check.


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## MarkM

Good day,  I recieved the Tormek t8 precision sharpening machine and about 1500$ worth of jigs to go with it.  I have to say i am super impressed.  Very well engineered even the manual has impressed me.  Already have a few things lined up to sharpen for people.
I plan to start a thread about my journey and once the lathe is here i ll do a little more of a review on the t8 on that thread.
Have a good weekend.  Make the most and play safe.


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## MarkM

Again I am dumbfounded how well i have been treated by Eisen through my lathe buying ordeal going way back to when I was  interested in there 1236gh. Anothe Liang Dei Machine.  I mentioned earlier in the thread about the coolant pump being a three phase pump.  I asked about the possibility of a single phase coolant pump and in my last conversation before i ll see the lathe I was told they threw a single phase pump in the crate and didn t have time to take the three phase one out.  I was  willing to send it back and was told to just keep it.  In this day and age it s been a great experience dealing with Eisen and thought they well deserved to be mentioned.


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## MarkM

Good day, i went across the border and was able to actually see the lathe for the first time. Eight days in transit with four different trailers . One more hurdle to go. Get it in the garage.  Still will be needed to get powered up.  Heading back to Ontario in a few weeks for holidays and plan to finushnit up upon return. For now i ll clean it up and level it a few times until it settles.
I realized how much i wrote and how much it took over.  One of the biggest decisions in my life to take this route. Not just the lathe purchase but this is the real committment.  I valued your wisdom and thoughts.  You did make a difference  in my decision.   In the end I bought way more lathe than i ever imagined.  Spent Three grand on a grinder and some jigs.  Been working on the shop getting more insulation in and  retape vapor walls. Built some benches and picked up a nice 1.5 hp variable speed bench grinder with a tormek jig base for it that s made in Taiwan. Have to stop,but it s contagous and need to get at least to a point to make progress.  
I ll try and get some picks up when the lathe gets in the garage.


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## richl

Good luck with your machine, it sounds like you are headed in the right direction.

Rich


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## MarkM

Well I have the lathe in the garage and quite happy how things actually fit.  It was a super long day.  A friend of mine who is an Arborist with a Tractor with a bucket and back hoe , a couple machine skates and a long pinch bar. Super relieved it s in. I ll get some pics up. Had to work Sun.


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## kdecelles

Pictures!


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## MarkM




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## MarkM

Sorry I took so long.  To be honest I thought is was going to be one of those "hey babe can I get a hand for a moment."  Slicker than slick.  Even looked for a place to write something and then in a flash no way get it in it s good your safe.  Awesome forum Hobby Machinist.
The day went pretty good.  Used two machine skates and a real nice long bar.  Took most of the day.  Tore up my shoulder the night before trying to finish the wall behind the lathe.  Had an ice jam on the main door then rain a few years ago.  Cut off the bottom eight inches Pulled the walls off and added more insulation and a vapour berrier. In a hissy fit pulling a sheet of press wood off Realizing this is foolish in the dark.   Still can t raise my arm overhead on its own. One spot and its like a knife on a nerve.  It is improving.  
I mentioned the Tormek T8.  I tell you I am really impressed with the level of quality and engeneering in there system and jigs.  It puts out a reall nice edge and the four facet drill grind is impressive.  I have been doing a few restaraunts knives and poultry scissors and some chipper blades with a 5/8 bevel.  
It s all machining.  Interesting too.  For example the chipper blade material was A8m.  A tool steel not hardened as I am used to a8 at 60ish Rc scale.  These were somewhere around 35 to 40"i believe and made it a challenge Even though I,had the better wheel as well.  300$ and lost ten mm on a 250mm wheel.  Had to set up my other grinder and match the angle and dip and dip and wait and dip and wait.  The angle change was drastic from his hand ground 48 degrees to 31.  Yes alot of grinding but convinced him to throw away the other two sets and buy new blades so i won t have to do that again.  Sharp you bet. Ask me how I know!
After the vacation I get to spend another three grand. Yippidy doo!  and get wired up and a vfd.


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## kdecelles

I'm looking at some eBay vfds to drive a 7.5hp 3ph motor I bought at an auction for $20

No project in mind yet for it but I'll let the motor drive the imagination 

I bought a vfd a year ago (3hp max) and it works fine.  


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## MarkM

i am in the process on deciding on a vfd.  There are only a few true single to three phase vfds out there above three hp. My search has led me to polyspede pc1-50 or Gohz gk3000.  Poly double the price but who cares If it s the right one.  A,big question for me and i still have to figure it out before I buy is.  Is there any benefit to using a true rated say 5 hp vfd than using a dreated say 10 hp.  I believe it is amps anyways not hp?  The reason being is Other than the grand and from what i can tell hard to decifer manual.  The Hitachi wj200 seems to be the consistent one out there.  Alot of users and knowledge.  Great support and for me most important it is tried and proven.  It s my first dive into the vfd world and really i just wanna ride my bicycle.  Power me up let me use my manual break and gears for now.  So any benefit to a true rated vs. Derated vfd.  If it s made for the heat and spikes it should be good either way no?


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## kdecelles

I'm an amateur at best and don't use any of my equipment to make a living so burning up a motor / drive isn't a fear of mine 

That said, I am running a 3hp vfd with one and two hp motors with no issues and paid $190 for the vfd (Canadian ). 

My attitude would change if I was powering your lathe though as it would kill me to  burn up the motor .

Take my experience as input but get advise from those who know!  

Good looking machine!


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## kdecelles

I'm using advice re derating  for this 7.5 hp motor, which is why I'm looking at 10hp vfd 


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## mksj

I would probably recommend a single phase input 240V 5Hp drive as a first choice for several reasons. First they are available and they are  less expensive than something like a 10Hp 3 phase input VFD drive like a Hitachi WJ200-075LF. This is the most likely the size you would need for a 3 Phase input drive that is derated for single phase use.  The usual derating factor is to take the VFD output and divide by ~1.7, you can use a DC choke and maybe get this down to 1.5, but the total cost will be even more. The other predominate factor is that even though you are using the VFD in a derated mode for single phase input, the power input side to the VFD has to be rated for the full VFD rating, so 10Hp, or 7.5KW. Game changer when you get into the wiring fusing and breaker needed to support this size of a VFD.

My first recommendation would be a Yaskawa drive, they are a highly rated drive and used widely in many industrial machines. Almost every factory 3-5Hp single phase input VFD lathe or mill comes with a Yaskawa drive.   It is also the least expensive. I would buy it from an authorized dealer so you have support and a warranty.  Yaskawa, CIMR-VUBA0018FAA, 5HP, 1-Phase, 200-240V (Input), NEMA 1 Enclosure, Variable Frequency Drive, 4.2KW,  17.5A
https://motorsandcontrol.com/yaskaw...ut-nema-1-enclosure-variable-frequency-drive/

The Polyspede line has been replaced, the spedestar is not UL approved for what it is worth. The Polyspede equivalent in a newer model is the  Invertek Drives
The VFD drive is the E3 model ODE-3-320153-1042 INput:240VAC, Single Phase Output: 5 HP, 240VAC, Three Phase 4kW, 15.3A
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/ode-3-320153-1042
http://www.invertekdrives.com/variable-speed-drives/optidrive-e3/

I have purchased drives from both of the above vendors, I would call them and ask them what they recommend for your application. I have a Yaskawa drive in my mill, the Hitachi on my lathe, up to 3Hp with single phase input,  I would recommend either. Invertek Drives are somewhat new, I have no experience with them, but speak to Drives Warehouse. I would go with the  Yaskawa, CIMR-VUBA0018FAA as it is more widely supported and more widely used.  I also believe this is what Eisen uses in the VFD variable speed lathes/mills

All these VFDs take a bit of work to get programmed and dialed in, the manuals can be a bit daunting.  The other factor is you need to know how to wire the VFD into the machine controls, I strongly do not advise connecting the VFD inputs directly to the spindle switch for the direction controls, there are just too many things that can happen on a lathe with severe consequences.  It is possible to strip out the high voltage wiring to the forawrd and reverse contactors and use them to switch the forward/reverse VFD inputs. All the other controls will work the same, the motor is directly connected to the VFD. I also like to add a few other safety features. The other component is that your machine comes with a manual brake, so if used you need to switch out the current brake limit switch for a dual pole, one side is wired as before (usually a NC that goes open when the brake is applied), the other pole you use a NO contact and is wired to a VFD input that gives the freewheel command (no electronic braking when the manual foot brake is engaged). It is not a simple drop in job. You could also go with an RPC which may be less expensive and much simpler to install.


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## MarkM

Eisen does use the Yaskawa for there variable speed model.  I just couldn t find any reviews and the fact polyspede is an American company gets a few more votes.  I value and respect your opinion mksj.  I should look more into Yaskawa as they are a Japanese company and like you say most factory vfd driven lathes are Yaskawa.
Yes vfd can be daunting.  Kinda scary at this stage for me.  I ve realized I need to educate myself not only with the obvious but I started to study the terminology that i have been coming across the many manuals I have been reading.  It is getting better And I need to have a better understanding of electrical terms and abbreviations to make sense of it all. That is my main area of study now.  I am planning on having a crafty electrician friend of mine hold my hand through the vfd Install.
I have to admit I have always shyed away from Electricty and even cnc for that matter.  Paying for it now having been stubborn about it when I was working in a screw machine shop.  I like mechanical things I can see.  Electricty is wizardry   Almost to me.  In todays world you have to dive in or your left behind like I am.  Am I getting that old where technology is passing me?  Maybe? Posting pics is a classic example of my train of thought.  Real busy and thought I needed a host for pics and look how easy it is.  I better get my head out of the dark ages and be more open to the possibilities and not be set in stone with my thinking.
Just a thought any of you out in the Golden Horshoe area of Ontario from Toronto to say Orillia.  If so how about getting together for a coffee.  Just a thought. I am heading that way tomorrow and will be there for a week.


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## MarkM

I think I found my drive.  Thankyou MKSJ!  After looking over the Yaskawa manual and the fact Eisen already use this series of vfd seals the deal for me.  I did look for the Yaskawa previously but never found a single to three phase for 5hp. Now I can concentrate on one manual. 
I know I am an odd duck and I am sure some head shaking going on in this thread.  Been that way all my life.  I appreciate all your thoughts and time spent trying to help me.
If I am allowed I plan to start a thread about my journey getting back into machining.  I know  it s a hobby forum  and think of it like this.  If your not making your living at it and going about it in a garage in a manner I am realizing it s going to be a good while before i will make any respectable income.  It s more about getting a full rounded shop for the next few years and making my own fixtures and what tooling I can. I have four years to get set up.


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## Moderatemixed

I fly airplanes for a living but have been teaching myself machining over the last year so I would approach your initial question from a very basic but time tested standpoint.  Part of the preamble of my Starrett book says to buy the best tools that you can afford.  I have Taiwanese machines and they are more robust than Chinese. When I bought I too was looking "long term".  I want my machines to last.  I bought bigger than I needed, full featured machines that I can grow into rather than having to replace down the line. Once I got comfortable (and I am not there yet) with a machine I didn't want to have to replace it.  Just my 2 cents.  Good luck and keep in touch. I'm in Hamilton.  Cheers. 


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## kdecelles

Looking forward to your posts.  I'm an i.t. Manager pushing a desk who likes his job but whose brain comes alive when working on vintage machinery

I love to learn and am not afraid to try

Last nights journey was learning how to wire my 7.5 hp 3ph motor from an auction.  Pulled the elect cover off and stared at 9 grey wires unmarked and unnumbered .

Hit up google and YouTube and learned about wye vs delta 3ph wiring and how to identify the wiring using a battery and analog meter

Fascinating stuff!


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## mksj

Good that you have the VFD worked out, but if you are not familiar with electricity/wiring and programming of the VFD I would strongly recommend having an electrician work with you on the install. As I mentioned previously, if the contactors have not been used, then you can remove the high voltage wiring to the forward and reverse contactors and use one set of the contacts to switch the forward (S1) and reverse (S2) low voltage inputs on the VFD. The lathe will operate the same as if it was connected to 3 phase, and you will have speed control. You can wire the front jog switch so it directly operates a low voltage jog (S7) input on the VFD. Normally what I recommend is replacing the machine E-Stop with a lighted (24V) version, so you connect the current machine power indicator light to the E-Stop light. You then put your speed pot in the 22mm hole that was previously the power on light hole. The E-Stop would have two Normally Closed (NC) contact blocks, one side is wired the same as the current E-Stop which interrupts power to the contactors/power relay. The second NC contact block interrupts the VFD signal voltage (SC) used for the VFD inputs.

Some of this is similar to some previous threads posted below which are for a basic PM 1340GT and 1440GT VFD conversion without building a completely new control system. You will need an external braking resistor for the VFD, the VFD can stop the lathe in a controlled fast fashion, but if you have too much momentum (mass X speed) you can exceed the electronic braking ability of the VFD if trying to stop it to quickly. This will result in and over voltage error and the VFD will freewheel to a stop, this can be dangerous.

The PM 1440GT is very similar to your lathe, I have attached a document which outlines the concept of the wiring changes discussed above, but this applies to the Hitachi WJ200. If you use any diodes for the VFD input logic, you must reconfigure the VFD for Source logic for the inputs, this is controlled by DIP switch S3 on the V1000. You can use this as a starting point, as each lathe (even the same model) wiring may be different, this is provided only as general information as to the concept and suggestions. You must take all responsibility for how you would integrate this with your lathe and all electrical/safety code requirements. When I build these type of control systems, I use 2 -3 redundant safety systems, and interlocks, so for example  if say a spindle switch fails closed, the E-Stop will still stop the machine.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/vfd-enclosurers-wiring-schematics-and-components.55739/
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/thre...g-the-stock-control-board-and-switches.49022/


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## MarkM

Kd I think that is great how your going about things.  Work through it until you figure it out.  What a smoking deal on that motor.
Mksj thank you.  Not just for the information you have given me but all the reading and studying I have done that has come from you.  I sincerely and am for ever greatful what you have done for all of us.  In this day and age it is awesome how you care and truly put a great effort to enable us to advance our knowledge.
I really want to have the manual brake vs. The dynamic breaking of the vfd.  Many years having used it for say production work or other times where a manual break is more than just a safety feature.  Other than powering the lathe on initial startup I want to have the soft start feature from the get go for the lathes longevity.
Yes I feel the same.  I am not there yet.  One day I hope to have the knowledge and the confidence.  For me at this stage of the game I don t care how slow and long it takes to make progression.  I won t take shortcuts or skim on safety to accomplish things.  I just have to make sure its forward and not put my self in a position where it would put me back.  I hope to be ready on my own when it s time for my first mill.  Knowing they are a little easier when it comes to vfd.  For now my milling will be done on the lathe.  Well what I can anyways.  I think with some fixtures and such there are some things you can do on a lathe like drill some deep deep holes you may not be able to on a mill.  Struggle with the lathe for awhile and come up with some ideas I may never see if I went to a mill right away.


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## Robert LaLonde

MarkM said:


> Good Morning,  I'll try not to write a novel today.  Can't believe how caught up in it I get and off on a ramble.  Pretty much set on the 1340gt and ponder a thought that I may throw out there if I may.
> The pm1236 is such a value at 2/3rds the cost of a pm1340gt with a dro.  Almost as capable.  It does come with a lot of stuff but most would need to be replaced but it can be done over time and understand it may need some tuning and has been proven with this setup.  With 3 phase and vfd  which can be done at a very reasonable cost. It would be a nice little runner I think. Don't need a vector motor with 18 speeds.  It saves quite a bit which I can help gather tooling and such or put it towards a machine down the rd.
> This is more like Devil's Advocate here.  Pretty set on the 1340gt I thought I 'd put the thought out there for kicks and giggles.




I bought a PM1440 with similar thoughts to yours regarding the VFD and 3ph motor.  I've had it for a year and a half atleast, and I have never really needed that much control of speed.  I've done dozens of precision projects with it and a few dozen more hack projects and with the foot break, and the motor bump button I can change speeds with the gear box awfully darn fast.  

I'm a big fan of VFDs and 3Phase motors.  I've got 4 cnc mills in operation with VFDs controlling 3 phase spindles and they are awesome, but for manual turning on my lathe I've found it might be nice, but I really don't miss it.  I step on the foot brake, change the lever and throw the go lever back and forth.  Its almost automatic now.  I've got more VFDs, motors, and spindles in boxes for future projects.  

As to quality.  I can't speak for the other size machines, but I have been very happy with my PM machine.  The tail stock is a few thousandths high, but I've been told that is to be expected.  There is a spring pin in the tail stock cam lock that is too short, and will break off if you use a lot of repeated high lever pressure.  I replaced mine with a longer spring pin and had no further issues.  Other than that I have not noticed any real issues with the machine.  Oh, yeah, and Matt sent me a free part to help me out with something I broke recently.  Didn't even charge for shipping.


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## MarkM

Hello again!  Hope allis well in everyones world! 
Well finally getting to the point of being able to run the lathe.  After reading and reading and reading more manuals about vfd s Imhave decided on Mksj s recomendation of the Yawaska cimr - vuba0018fa single to three phase 5hp vfd and decided on the enhanced keypad and won t be getting a potentionometer after the discussion with the tech from State Motors and Control Solutions.  Imhave spoken toma few other companies but feel theynwere top shelf and made me feel like a customer.  I bought a few things to get going but still need my M. Level and some way oil as the machine is still in it s shipping coating other than what I needed to clean to move the carriage and tailstock to balance the machine to get it in the garage.  One more week.  Waiting for my drive and probably just going to go with the starret 98. Level for now and just use the test bar to setup for now.  Man it s been a journey.


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## Robert LaLonde

I think if you have never setup a VFD before then buy one from Drives Warehouse.  I called them once with an issue, and one of them called me back from home after hours and helped walk me through a tricky setup.


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## kdecelles

Looking forward to hearing more.  I ordered a 10hp huang yang eBay vfd yesterday .  If it shows up I consider it a win.  I've almost figured out the wiring on that 7.5hp motor I got at auction 


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## MarkM

Bob I am bad on these forums.  I speak my mind too fast and sometimes I forget the world has access to everything we say and I have more than once put my foot in my mouth.  I remember once upsetting Matt by what I posted and didn t really think enough about it before I hit the post so I will just say I have spoken to many drive retailers and some quite a few times and found State Motors and control solutions to give me the best feeling like Eisen did buying the lathe.  Also Drives Warehouse don t sell Yawaska and it is a premium drive with great support that as mksj has stated most factory machine tools use Yaskawa and also I liked there manual the best of all I have read and I am trying to educate myself so I can get through this.  Not to say I won t need someone to hold my hand but I m pretty stubborn and by my next machine tool purchase I won t have to go through this learning curve again. 
Kd are you going to get a 15 hp vfd and derate it  or are you going to limit  the hp through the vfd?  Sound like you got another steal of a deal.


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## kdecelles

I'm going to try the 10hp vfd and do some testing.  I'm on the fence regarding the 2:1 ratio and it is probably a sickness but I can be warned a 100 times not to do something and I won't truly believe it til I see it 

The plan is to see if the motor works at all, measure amps etc and then try some different loads (tbd)

I don't have a distinct use in mind for this motor yet, other than to see if it runs or if I bought a good counter weight.  The vfd has use regardless of the outcome .  I'll go over the border to get it In a few weeks


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## Robert LaLonde

No offense.  I'm a pretty smart guy, but when I don't know something I don't hesitate to ask for help.  I would have thought the Spedestar would have been good for this application since its rated for single phase input all the way up to their largest HP sizes.  Very few other VFDs over 5HP (3.7Kw) are rated for single phase input usage.  Then you have to derate them to about 3.4 HP.  I had the chance to buy some big lathes (bigger than my 14x40) a couple years ago cheap, but they had 10HP motors and other than installing a large rotary I didn't see an answer at the time so I passed.  The 5HP Spedestar was the only one I knew of at the time.  I hope the Huan Yang can handle it.  I'll definitely be curious to find out.  If it does ok it will open up some avenues for machines for me.


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## kdecelles

Disclosure : in no way would I run a lathe of this cost / quality on a huang yang, I'd probably cost out 3ph fees to shop or rotary converter etc

My interest is in understanding capabilities of off mArket devices for non production usage




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## MarkM

Kd I have thought about the rfc as well.  Would be nice to be able to go out and just hit the power button and start making chips.  Believe me I am quite nervous about the whole ordeal with the vfd.  Too easy can things go poof and the thought of pulling my hair out has crossed my mind more than once but also I spent way too much money not to use the 5 hp and kinda seems silly to me to lose some with the rfc.   Do I really need it?  No but on occasion I may once I get myself out there and doing some work Knowing I am in a garage.  Would hate to have a customer at the door waiting and seeing me having to back off on some bigger diameter work that s been welded for example. A big reason I pushed out on the lathe purchase.  Maybe I can fool them until I am set up properly.  I ve done alot of work around here moons ago when I first moved out here on the Cdn. East coast as a machinist.  Small town and word travels fast.  They know me but I ll only have one chance at it with them.   Torque is everything and the vfd offers it!


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## kdecelles

Get 'er wired and lets see it go!


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## MarkM

Sometimes I wonder if I am a fool.  Even an a hole at times.  Maybe?  I am like you kd I need to see it for myself.  I ll ,get through it.  It may take some time.  Hopefully not too long   I still need all kinds of stuff to even play.  The fella that helped me get the lathe in the garage is coming over with his stump grinder tomorrow to help dig a 140' trench.  Gave the word to another buddy who is the electrician to order up all the cable and such.  The drive should be here sometime next week and planning on getting the vfd wired up next wkend.  I think even that will be interesting as my buddy has wired up vfd s before but for industry.  Around here it s fish plants mills and quarry s so he s never wired a lathe.  I have some tooling from years ago and my old measuring tooIs l and to think I can do this and get set up.  Spent about seven hours on a couple pairs of chipper blades that were out about 17 degrees before i could put it on the Tormek for 45$ just for a service for some machine work down the rd and hope he ll be back now there at the right angle  Ya I am a fool! 
 Sorry for the edits.  Forgot I m an idiot too!


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## MarkM

This is all driving me batty!  Up again at four thirty and can t stop thinking about this drive and what s ahead of me.  Under alot of pressure at work too as were replacing the header in the curling rink.  Brine is out of the floor and header welded up and ready to install.  It hasn t been touched in fifty years and were hosting a National event this year.


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## grantj

Call Matt and talk to him about it.
If the VFD isn't going to cut it, you'll end up having to buy the RPC anyways, then you'll end up paying for both.


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## Robert LaLonde

I've got a 5HP Leland 3 phase motor on my Hurco KMB1 running off a 3.7Kw Mitsubish VFD.  It was in the mill when I got it several years ago.  It was still setup for 3phase before I gutted out the machine and rebuilt it.  I also have the original manual for the mill where it only claims to be 4HP.  I have it setup with single phase 230 for the VFD  and DC power supply (I built the power supply) and 120V for every thing else, like the computer, relays, secondary power supplies, breakout board, etc. 

Anyway, my mill has run just fine for several years on that VFD.  I try to keep loads under 1HP (which is a huge amount of material removal), but I have pushed it up there a few times.  I've stalled the motor and caused the VFD to go into trouble a few times, but I just reset it and I am good to go again... well after I fix whatever code caused me to overload the VFD anyway.  With a decent quality properly sized VFD there is no reason you can't run a 5HP lathe.  

I would note that a 5HP (3.7Kw) VFD is NOT the right size to run a 5HP load on single phase unless its a VFD specifically designed for that load on single phase.  All the 1/3 input VFDs I have seen need to be derated from 30-35% when run on single phase.

I also have 3 other smaller high speed mills running VFDs, and have a couple spare high speed spindles and VFDs that I sometimes use as companion spindles.


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## MarkM

Why would I call Matt?  I never bought the machine off of him.  It s an Eisen 1440 ge not a pm 1440 ts.  Yes both from Liang dei out of Taiwan.
It s a purpose built single to three phase 5 hp vfd.  That s one of the reasons I like it as well.  Theres only a few of these in the 5 hp range.  The vfd will get done.  It s a matter of when.  If I am not comfortable I ll have to wait until I feel  confident enough and want to learn and yes I will be asking for guidance if needed.
I ve ran bigger lathes with more hp that bogged down.  Like I said it seems silly to me to pay as much as I have and not use it.  I would have bought another machine then.  Been thinking about this for a few years.  It s going to be a long journey and I know that.  Really don t expect to be a full rounded shop for at least four years or so.  I'spent fourteen years in the industry And have a licence as a machinist so my eyes aren t closed.


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## mksj

It seems no one is reading what was previously posted. There are just a couple of manufactures that make single phase 230VAC input 5Hp rated VFDs, these have been previously outlined. These are designed  to runoff of single phase, so there is absolutely no need to buy a larger VFD or buy a 3 phase VFD, which would need to be a minimum of 7.5 Hp with a DC choke, or 10Hp otherwise and be derated as noted. Since the input wiring must be rated based on 125% of the VFD rated output, it starts to become impractical. I real question the reliability and validity of the HY VFDs, and their claims to run at the higher Hp ranges, There documentation is very poor and they have many programming limitations.


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## MarkM

I have to laugh but a message on the phone from State Motors and Controls Systems.  Yawaska does not have it in stock and won t be available until the end of Oct.  Too funny!  Well Polyspede or Invertec.  Invertec is made in the U.K. And the tech from Drives Warehouse highly recommenede it.  Supposedly high quality.  I do like the polyspede which is made in Taiwan.  Both single to three phase purpose built drives


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## MarkM

I apologize if I have come across as  kurt or in a bad manner.  It has been a very hard past few months. ,Lost my mother in six weeks to cancer and a good friend which is the brother of the girl I am with died of a heroin overdose at the age of forty six.  I am not the same person and at my age going to be hitting fify this year life should be getting easier and more enjoyable.  Don t sleep not just because of the vfd.  Been along time but cant wait to get going properly. Tired of not being appreciated no matter where I have worked and really miss machining and it s creative side so this is a huge life change and man it s been along haul just to get here and it kills me with the lathe sitting there.   Have to be patient and believe in myself I keep saying to myself


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## MarkM

Found the Yawaska drive I am after and in stock at Galco.  Waiting to hear about the enhanced keypad and cable.  Hopefully all ordered and ready to ship monday or tueseday.
Atleast one more hurdle out of the way.


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## MarkM

I ve mentioned the Tormek T8 a few times and everyone like pics so here are a few.  Drill jig,  planer, chipper and jointer blade  jig the four facet grind and a few knives.  I can take a pc. Of chicken Breast and lay it in my palm and cut it in half horizontal without holding it.


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## MarkM

Ordered the Yawaska single to three phase drive today.  Should be here Thursday.  The electrician showed up at my work with my electric panel and 140' of six gauge ocean tech cable and now it sits  in the garage.  Going to put a few inches of sand in the trench as a base and a couple inches over top of the cable For a little insurance with the cold weather and frost and to make it easier when it s time to move in a few years. My business cards arrived in the mail also.  Great day with some forward movement.


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## MarkM

Everything is in the garage waiting for install.  I never bought the enhanced keypad jvop 180 but I may down the rd.   It would help a great deal with setup and to monitor the drive.  It would also allow me to not deal with the setup of a potentiometer as its plug and play with ten feet of cable.  I have looked at some pots and there is all kinds out there but don t know what is quality and what isn t.  I would be looking for a 2 ohm linear pot if anyone would have any recomendations.
Sometimes I think this has been a cruel joke with getting it running.   I can add the pot or enhanced keypad later but for now it s all there to get it running and my electrician decided to go out of town to visit his son.  So more waiting.  Oh well I guess I ll go work on the shop.


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## mksj

Just about any potentiometer will work for a speed pot. You will want a 2K ohm linear pot, not 2 ohm, I like to use a better quality pot as they are more reliable then the old carbon track pots. The better pots  often use film or are wire wound for the resistance pathway. You will need to get a knob for the speed pot, it would be for a 1/4" shaft. You should use shielded 3 wire (18-22AWG) cable between the speed pot and the VFD if mounted remotely. The cable shield is only connected at the VFD end to the VFD ground connection. I usually put some shrink tubing or tape around the shield at the other end so it is insulated.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clarostat-5...W-1-Turn-QTY-1-RV4NAYSD202A-C43-/401403319133
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clarostat-5...SD202A-NEW-in-Box-Free-Shipping-/252732310397
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carol-C2535...n-Cable-UL-2093-300V-CMH-Gy-50ft/152622187631
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Contr...rip-Dual-Set-Screws-Line-25-New-/222321455717

An alternate 22mm hole speed pot is sold through Automation Direct, it is a 5K but will work fine. I routinely use these for both Hitachi and Yaskawa VFDs. They also have a lot of other electrical components, I purchase many their items when I build VFD systems.
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...dicators/22mm_Metal/Potentiometers/ECX2300-5K
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad..._Indicators/22mm_Metal/Potentiometers/ECX2640


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## tq60

Before you bury the power do place warning tape in the trench.

They make tape just for this and it is readily available 

You place the tape above the wires more close to the surface so if  and when someone digs in the dirt they hit the warning tape.

Next make clear map with measurements from fixed things like buildings and clear description of the trench and place copies inside power boxes at each end .

Regarding VFD selection in general.

You did well but others are suggesting wrong approach for final selection by simple derating.

Yes you can start there but as you did contact manufacturer or download the manual to see if the device will work on single phase and which model is listed en motor size.

We did this with our Allen bradley as we needed 2 hp and the manual stated 3 hp needed with the model number so eBay search for that specific one and 199.00 later we are golden.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## MarkM

Ready for cable.  About five inches of fine sand as it sits.  Really soft though.  I hoping after draging the cable through  to have three or so inches of sand and fill over top with the same sand just for a little wiggle rm. and to help with a poke from rocks and marked out.  
Thanks for taking the time to post for the information and links to everyone!


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## kdecelles

When I pulled permits I'm AB 10 years ago trenches needed to be 24-30 inches deeps.  


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## MarkM

I have my depth for code with tek cable and some.  Five inch s isn t my depth it s the amount of sand on the bottom and the cable will be worked in to around three from the bottom.  Everything is done to code with the proper paper work and licenced electrician. A stump grinder was used so the top half is wider than the bottom to give clearance for the bearings on the machine to reach depth.  The bottom is only four inches wide as its the width of the wheel for digging.   All good!


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## MarkM

I have to say after reading about vfd s and what they bring to the table for motor control for machine tools it is impressive coming from my screw machine background.  Compared to cams gears levers and trip dogs its a whole new world that impresses me more and more as I get further into what can be done with them.  For me for now I am just looking for the simple setup to enable me to run the lathe with soft start and use my mechanical brake.


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## kdecelles

Mark, good to hear on the code depth, i ran electric and gas in the same trench, separated the two with a 2x6 pressure treated board on end.  In top I laid a 2x10 flat so anyone digging will hit it first

I'm going to the border to get my vfd in a week or so, I took a couple days off work and went camping by myself, sitting my a lake watching the sun come up, reading forums and machinist magazines......


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## MarkM

Well I got the 220 single phase to the garage and the trench almost filled back in.  Working getting ready the garage for winter as it was some chilly sat morn. at -2 celsius.  I am not up to speed with the  Yaskawa v1000.  I have read and read and it is starting to make sense.  I would like to use the open loop vector control but may sway to the vf setting as the drive in this model does offer constant torque with vf operation and would be a little easier to just get the oil and machine moving.  Made some progress in the shop too so a good wkend.  Still need to run the lines from the panel to,the  vfd and a 240v heater.  Hope to have it all wired within two weeks and for me Nov. 1st is my deadline to be running.


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## mksj

Use sensorless vector control, it gives you much better control over a wider operating range then you will get with just V/F control. It gives continuous torque over a wider range.  I previously outlined using the current forward/reverse contactor and stripping the high voltage connections and using them to switch the Forward/Reverse VFD inputs. It is not wise to hookup the VFD directly to the spindle controls and even more dangerous with a mechanical foot brake. Using the contactors to switch the VFD inputs, it will operate just like your machine would work if operating off of an RPC. The motor is directly connected to the VFD.  There are also issues that if using the mechanical brake, you need to send a free run command to the VFD. You need to also set the motor parameters in the VFD, and preferable run the autotune. Yaskawa has a nice software interface, I made my own cable for my VFD.


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## MarkM

Thanks again mksj.  I feel the same about the vector control.  Just thought it might be easier for now to get up and running.  I have noted your comments on the forward and reverse controls from your previous post.  Yes wire the motor directly from the vfd and use the coast to stop for the braking parameter.  Set the dip switch for the controls along with some of the parameters for the controls as well.  Not sure about the coolant pump if I should just wire it separately or not.  Sometimes I wonder if I am reading too much and complicating things for myself.  Learning a fair bit though and not just about vfd's.  It s a must to auto tune if using vector.  Is it just a matter of removing the belt for no load and auto tune with rotational?  What is the difference between rotational and stationary auto tune if I may ask?


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## mksj

If the coolant pump is single phase, then it would operate normally. Similar to the 1440GT conversion process, 240VAC single phase must be wired to the main lathe control system. Only the 240VAC three phase power wires going to the forward/reverse contactors and the motor overload relay/wires to the motor is disconnected. Do not disconnect the contactor control wires.  You need to see which main control system two power input legs L1 and L2 OR L1 and L3 are used to connect to the main transformer and these also would provide power a single phase coolant pump. You can check this by tracing which input power wires go to the 240 VAC input of the transformer. You should have a coolant contactor with overload relay which would switch on/off the coolant pump. The coolant pump contactor and its overload relay are wired a bit differently if used for single phase vs 3 phase. If you take some high res pictures of the control system and have a wring schematic I can provide some further details as to wiring suggestions.  In most cases (like 95+%), hobbyist do not use flood coolant because it is usually not needed, very messy, and more commonly a FogBuster/mist system is used if needed. I often just use a applicator (oil can/brush) and sometime air to clear the chips.

The sensorless vector mode will work OK without running the autotune (so don't worry about doing it upfront), it is just that the motor will run a bit smoother if the specific motor parameters are loaded. Running it with motion and the belt off allows it to more accurately determine the motors specific parameters, static is usually for systems where it is hard to physically disengage the motor from the system, so something like where it would be directly connected to a transmission/gear case. Do not overthink the system, get the basics wired and operating and then you can fine tune the specifics. The VFD should only need a few parameters adjusted to get it up and running, you will need to check the type of limit switch used for the mechanical brake, and replace it with a dual pole switch. The second pole (Normally Open contact) is wired to a programmed VFD input to issue a free run command. The other switch pole is wired the same as the current brake switch, and should be a Normally Closed contact. If you take a picture of the limit switch I can point you to a suitable replacement. As previously mentioned, I strongly recommend you have an electrician work with you setting up the system to get the wiring correct.


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## MarkM

The coolant pump that is in the machine now is a three phase unit but Eisen was kind enough to throw in a single phase pump that is in a box.  I may be way off but I thought the single phase power would go to the vfds R/L1 and S/L2 and the   Motor would get it s three phase power from the U/T1 V/T2 and W/T3 terminals  and get your forward reverse from the control circuits from one of s1 to s7 and set your brake parameter to coast to stop and receive it s signal from the control circuits from the lathe wire d to the control circuits on the vfd.  Hmm  I totally respect what you say.  I am in the dark at times here.   I Start to feel better about it and then realize how far off I am.  I Need to absorb what you have stated and relate it with the manual and the lathes manual I have to move the lathe to get a good picture but I will and the schematics as well.  It may be on the wkend as I am at crunch time at work and wont be home at a decent time and may have to work the wkend.  I Would be crazy not to.  I read what you said and responded without really going through it properly to understand it.  I appreciate everything
I am going to auto tune though.  I Think it is worth it and like you said it will be smoother and isnt that what we are after.  I probably won t use the coolant pump all that much but when it s needed it really does help and this is a bit more than a hobby for me, maybe a mid life crisis and will definetly have an electrician there with me.


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## MarkM

Mksj I see what your saying now after going through it a few times with the manuals.  As soon as I have time to get the lathe out from the wall to be able to get the panel door opened enough I ll get some pictures.  You have helped so many on this forum and I really wanted to try to not bother you but I must admit winter is moving in and it s been sitting long enough and It needs to get it s juices flowing.  Too much moneynsitting there and it s not a good thing with the temperature swings now.  I am ever so grateful!


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## MarkM

Well the saga continues.  Thinking I would have been up and running by now.  Not so.  I may have to find another electrician to help with the vfd.  Having been given some very detailed information with four pages of info with pictures to be brushed off and be in disagreement with my notes until I pull the manual out makes me realize his experience with vfd s has only been to provide power and makes me a bit nervous.  Anyways I thought I would let all of you know what is going on.  He took the manual with him but I think I am just going to ask him if he is comfortable or not and if not I will be heading to the local mill to find an electrician with the vfd experience I need.  Have a good day all!


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## MarkM

Just raring to go!!! An assortment of 304, 316, 6061, 1018, and my favourite for it s machining ability and strength 1144 stressproof.


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## MarkM

Good day all.  Been awhile!  Still not up and running but have made some progress.  Wired up to the vfd and motor and a bit of work done in the panel of the lathe.  I had to stop with the electrician I had working with after arguing with him about him wanting to wire the motor up through the lathes panel.  He even orded a gfci after told not too and wasted more time.  I Have found someone to do the control inputs.  Works at the Nuclear plant down the road and taught at the local college and very familiar with vfd s.  Our schedules haven t been able to meet and complete it.  This saturday we will be able to hopefully finish it up.
Everything is industrial quality and from the garage panel all three phase wiring and disconnect. Even the heater I put up is done with three phase wiring.  I thought do it now rather than later when more machines are added.  Not sure where I ll be and may end up using a rotary phase with more equipment.  
I Started to clean the lathe up and have been pleasantly surprised to not find any chips anywhere.  Very robust and smooth except for the compound slide which will be taken apart and cleaned properly before moved anymore.
I just love the one pc. Stand and how thick and solid everything is.  Even the lead screw is 15/16 and the ribbing under the stand is awesome.  Man it s been awhile!
Anyways a few pics.


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## MarkM

Well finally the lathe is up and running.  All controls are working from the lathe as from the factory.  Still have my speed,pot. And braking resistor to add.  Easy additions to make once the resistor gets here and need to make a mount for the speed pot.  The only two glitches were the jog only working in reverse and a setting in the parameters to enable the frequency past 60 htz.  Runs great.  Went through the gears up and down with the feed shaft and lead screw working.  Now to get it properly located and levelelled.
A huge thankyou to mksj for his guidance and patience.   Overwelmed by his generosity and patience.
Now just needs an oil change but she is running!  I can t take the smile off my face.
Thanks all for your patience and insight in my decision.  Now my Journey can really begin!


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## mksj

Good to see you are up and running, very nice lathe. Will definitely need a braking resistor, given all the rotating mass I would suggest not programming a braking rate of anything less than 3 seconds.

If you are using the VFD inputs to set the JOG direction via the VFD multi function inputs, then connecting VFD SC via the JOG switch to the designated JOG input and program it as follows:
Setting the input to "12" will run the VFD in the Forward JOG
Setting the input to "13" will run the VFD in the Reverse JOG

If you are using the contactors to bump JOG, then you may have the forward/reverse contactors reversed that make the connections to the VFD inputs. There are a number of ways to reconfigure the JOG. You can also use a joystick to make it bidirectional by using direct SC connection to the two VFD inputs one programmed for Forward JOG and one for Reverse JOG. The will give you a true low speed JOG, as opposed to a bump JOG from using the contactors that would be at the speed pot setting.
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...s_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Metal/Joysticks/ECX1510

The maximum run speed is set with the E1-04 parameter, I would suggest using 90Hz. D2-01 which set the % of maximum output speed should be 100 (100%) which is the factory default.


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## MarkM

mksj said:


> Good to see you are up and running, very nice lathe. Will definitely need a braking resistor, given all the rotating mass I would suggest not programming a braking rate of anything less than 3 seconds.
> 
> If you are using the VFD inputs to set the JOG direction via the VFD multi function inputs, then connecting VFD SC via the JOG switch to the designated JOG input and program it as follows:
> Setting the input to "12" will run the VFD in the Forward JOG
> Setting the input to "13" will run the VFD in the Reverse JOG
> 
> If you are using the contactors to bump JOG, then you may have the forward/reverse contactors reversed that make the connections to the VFD inputs. There are a number of ways to reconfigure the JOG. You can also use a joystick to make it bidirectional by using direct SC connection to the two VFD inputs one programmed for Forward JOG and one for Reverse JOG. The will give you a true low speed JOG, as opposed to a bump JOG from using the contactors that would be at the speed pot setting.
> https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...s_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Metal/Joysticks/ECX1510
> 
> The maximum run speed is set with the E1-04 parameter, I would suggest using 90Hz. D2-01 which set the % of maximum output speed should be 100 (100%) which is the factory default.





mksj said:


> Good to see you are up and running, very nice lathe. Will definitely need a braking resistor, given all the rotating mass I would suggest not programming a braking rate of anything less than 3 seconds.
> 
> If you are using the VFD inputs to set the JOG direction via the VFD multi function inputs, then connecting VFD SC via the JOG switch to the designated JOG input and program it as follows:
> Setting the input to "12" will run the VFD in the Forward JOG
> Setting the input to "13" will run the VFD in the Reverse JOG
> 
> If you are using the contactors to bump JOG, then you may have the forward/reverse contactors reversed that make the connections to the VFD inputs. There are a number of ways to reconfigure the JOG. You can also use a joystick to make it bidirectional by using direct SC connection to the two VFD inputs one programmed for Forward JOG and one for Reverse JOG. The will give you a true low speed JOG, as opposed to a bump JOG from using the contactors that would be at the speed pot setting.
> https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...s_-z-_Indicators/22mm_Metal/Joysticks/ECX1510
> 
> 
> The maximum run speed is set with the E1-04 parameter, I would suggest using 90Hz. D2-01 which set the % of maximum output speed should be 100 (100%) which is the factory default.



Been real busy as of late.  Thanks again Mskj for your concern!  The lathe has been running great.  Haven t made any chips yet but have been running it in and doing it s first set of oil changes tomorrow and will have my first paying job to do.  A four step pulley with a tapered bore for a snowmobile.

This will be my last post with this thread but wish to thank everyone for there time and thoughts to help me decide. I am extremely happy with my lathe and vfd!    A solid machine that I Think will serve me well.

I will be around to tell about my journey back into machining.  Maybe I am crazy taking this on?  I don t care if I am or not it s what I want to do.  I am hoping to be at it full time in four years or so.  I know I have already spent way more money then I wanted to and yes I have taken out the credit card.  A rule I laid out for myself.  I realized to be functional and the quality I wanted i had no choice.  For now I have to think outside the box to get things done for awhile and probably am going to spend more time then I should with my limited machinery amd tooling but I think it will make me a better machinist.  Having worked in multi million dollar shops with all the bells and whistles is a far cry from where I am.  I ll never be that and don t expect to be.  Hopefully I can make it go.  Anyways thanks again I truly appreciate it!!!


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