# China



## R.G. (Mar 26, 2012)

I have had some extensive dealings with Chinese manufacturing, including working at the factory in China for a while. 

I get a little tired of people using "made in China" as a synonym for "low quality." It's a lot like the use of "Made in Japan" for low quality before we found out in the 1980s that the Japanese make really, really high quality stuff. Detroit found this out to their detriment. Other industries - like semiconductors - found this out too. 

The real problem with quality for items made in China is businessmen from the USA doing the buying. The Chinese, as a group, are as capable of high quality manufacture as anyone. But they are businessmen. When a buyer from the USA says "make it as cheap as you can", they sell him what he wants. Literally every penny gets squeezed out. 

Remember USA manufacturing the 1980s? When "made in the USA" became a near-synonym for "made on Monday or Friday junk"? Pennies are squeezed out the same way in manufacturing in China, by cutting corners. But we're asking for the bottom of the barrel. It's not like it's all they can do. 

We'll wake up to this, to our detriment, at some point. Don't scorn "made in China" as "junk"; be very afraid that they can do better if they want, because they can.


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## ScrapMetal (Mar 26, 2012)

What you say is absolutely true (IMHO) and I've said virtually the same thing myself many times.  The thing is though that "made in China" will remain a codeword for "crap" until we actually start importing their quality made items.  By the time we do that manufacturing in America will be completely gone and we will have no choice but to buy the more expensive foreign made items.

-Ron


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## "Mike" (Mar 27, 2012)

Of course,  NOW "Made In Japan"  stands for "check for radioactivity"!


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## Kennyd (Mar 27, 2012)

I am still leery...

If I owned XYZ Widget Manufacturing in China, and Joe America came to me build his widget with sub-standard materials and little to no quality control just so he could undercut the next guy I would refuse the business.  I would would lower my standards and put my name on a product that I know is inferior.  To do so shows to me the people there are just greedy and could care less as a whole.  Like the pictures Charley posted in post #8 of this thread: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/5844-CDCO-5C-Collet-Chuck-Review?styleid=1

In the USA or CA, if a company turned out a product like that they would be out of business quickly, but in China it seems they thrive to turn out crap and sell it to the US?

Just my opinion, probably worth what you paid for it.


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## Tony Wells (Mar 27, 2012)

I hope you guys keep this thread within the bounds we have established. It's not productive to encourage a discussion centered on the negative press received by Chinese (or any import) tools and equipment. it's just to turn into a defense/offense of an individual's position. We can discuss why there are reasons for the disparity in products, but let's not let it get personal.

Carry on!


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## ScrapMetal (Mar 27, 2012)

No problem Tony.

Kenny, you make a point about turning away work that you feel is sub-standard and that's all fine and good (I agree for that matter) but I don't think it applies in this case.  The manufacturer in China is offered a great deal of money to produce a product to the price-point required ala the buyer.  It will be the "buyers" name that ends up on the product with the only indication of production being "made in China".  Being that most of the industrial complex in China is at least partially owned by the government (as I understand it, not an expert on it by any means) and it's all about making a profit.  I really see no down-side for said manufacturer to produce what the client is asking for.

-Ron


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## R.G. (Mar 27, 2012)

Tony Wells said:


> I hope you guys keep this thread within the bounds we have established. It's not productive to encourage a discussion centered on the negative press received by Chinese (or any import) tools and equipment. it's just to turn into a defense/offense of an individual's position. We can discuss why there are reasons for the disparity in products, but let's not let it get personal.


Sorry - I didn't mean to kick off something that goes incindiary. Tony's right - let's not get into the "did so/did not" stuff. In fact, let's drop it entirely. I had a knee-jerk reaction.


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## lazyLathe (Mar 27, 2012)

Thought i would add this bit of info!

I am on a good many other hobby machining sites, all under my same name so i am easy to find!:biggrin:

There is a company in the U.K called Arc Euro Trade that get most of their stuff made in China.
Here is a review of their latest offering, ER-32 collet blocks.
John, the guy that is reviewing them is very fussy on his tooling.
If it is not to his liking or tolerances he expects he will not recommend it.
A very straight shooter kind of guy!

From what i see the made in China  with lack of quality is falling by the wayside slowly.
This is great news for us hobbyists as we will start to see great quality, affordable tools and tooling!

Anyway here is the review link:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=18084.0

Andrew


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## Gary Max (Mar 27, 2012)

The China thing I don't get------ how can the make a item and ship it around the world cheaper than we can build it.
 Take plywood---I just don't get it.


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## ScrapMetal (Mar 27, 2012)

Gary Max said:


> The China thing I don't get------ how can the make a item and ship it around the world cheaper than we can build it.
> Take plywood---I just don't get it.



You're not alone there.  I have a bit of trouble wrapping my mind around that as well.  It seems to me that things have to be made very cheaply, incredibly so, in order to be able to tack on the handling/shipping and still sell the product for a fraction of what a domestic product goes for.

On the other hand, they don't have to deal with all our enviromental regs, H.R. regs, health care costs, corporate taxes (ours are about the highest in the world), and liability laws.

-Ron


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## Kennyd (Mar 27, 2012)

ScrapMetal said:


> On the other hand, they don't have to deal with all our enviromental regs, H.R. regs, health care costs, corporate taxes (ours are about the highest in the world), and liability laws.
> 
> -Ron



Bingo Ron, you hit the nail on the head.  Government is making it nearly impossible for US companies to compete globally-even locally in most cases.


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## randyjaco (Mar 27, 2012)

Hey RG,
I am not trying to be cute, but how does one access the quality stuff from China? I can't really say that I have seen a quality tool made in the Peoples' Republic. I have seen some good stuff from Taiwan. Are there distributors here in the US? We can eliminate Harbor Freight 8^)

Randy


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## R.G. (Mar 27, 2012)

randyjaco said:


> I am not trying to be cute, but how does one access the quality stuff from China? I can't really say that I have seen a quality tool made in the Peoples' Republic. I have seen some good stuff from Taiwan. Are there distributors here in the US? We can eliminate Harbor Freight



I wish I could tell you. First you have to have a distributor willing to place a million-dollar (literally) bet on being able to make a decent profit, and a bigger profit for their million by going quality than by going cheap. That's a tough sell in the USA market. The experience of Japanese cars being better quality has not seemed to trickle down to the tools market like it did to the auto market. 

Grizzly and Jet are almost-starters there. Their rep is "better than HF"; their prices are higher. If the market overall wanted that, HF would go bust, or get better quality. 

I don't have a good answer for you. But I have toured and worked in  factories in China and dealt with engineers who earned my respect as an  engineer. I've seen some amazing CNC manufacturing equipment side by  side with workers hand-fitting stuff. I did that as part of my day job designing electronics. The company I work for manufactures in China. We get quality the hard way: you design the very best you can, work really hard at getting the factory to understand what's needed and acceptable, and then *keep on working* with them until you close out the product line. 

We need to find a distributor that's hanging on in spite of customers spending hours online searching for another dollar cheaper per unit; more likely, we need to convince one to take it up. Then support them.  

I for one wish I could buy a new South Bend, wherever it's made.


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## ScrapMetal (Mar 28, 2012)

I'd be willing to bet that there are dealers/exporters in Hong Kong that one could get quality items from.  Maybe ask some of the Aussie guys here.  They may know.

-Ron


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## randyjaco (Mar 28, 2012)

I guess that until there is a Chinese "Lexus" brand that is successful, we will continue to get cheap and inferior 8^(

Randy


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## ScrapMetal (Mar 28, 2012)

randyjaco said:


> I guess that until there is a Chinese "Lexus" brand that is successful, we will continue to get cheap and inferior 8^(
> 
> Randy



I think it's more, "as long as the American consumer continues to clamor for cheap and inferior, we will contine to get cheap and inferior"

-Ron


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## 12bolts (Mar 28, 2012)

ScrapMetal said:


> I'd be willing to bet that there are dealers/exporters in Hong Kong that one could get quality items from.  Maybe ask some of the Aussie guys here.  They may know.
> 
> -Ron



Nah Ron,
To the best of my knowledge we are in the same boat as the US.
Unfortuanately Made in China=POS.
I would be happy to find a supplier of quality Chinese made products.
 I also dont get how we can chop down our trees, sell them to China, and buy them back as finished products, be it paper or building materials. Or ship in fresh fruit or vegetables from South America to Australia and sell them for less than the local farmers can produce them for

Cheers Phil


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## Tony Wells (Mar 28, 2012)

How they do it is probably more than we want to know, really. Why seems to me to be that the world's consumers (not just USA) are trying their best to survive in a struggling world economy, while still having "stuff". If everyone in the world who supports this type of economy gave up having every new gadget that comes around, things would change. People seem to accept throw-away goods, and reckon that since the price seems "cheap", it makes up for it. After all, what exits now that won't be "obsolete" in 6 months?

As long as people are willing to buy inferior goods, people will find ways to buy them for resale at prices that allow for profit. That's the Capitalist way. It's a downward spiral, to a point where people simply decide they are really wasting money. Then the push will come for higher quality, and not everyone can or will be able to buy. The haves and have-nots will distinguish themselves. Only when people stop buying cheap goods, for whatever reason, will this cycle be broken. I'm not thinking it will end soon.


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## Tony Wells (Mar 28, 2012)

Well, it's certainly not due to any one thing, and developed over time and interplay with the world economy. It's not just the US, I guess is my take on it. It always seems like it's an Us vs Them kind of thing, but I don't think so.


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## NevadaBlue (Apr 7, 2012)

Well, I wouldn't have any machine tools if I had to buy US made stuff. My lathe, mills, drill press, and small bandsaw are China made. They work fine for my hobby needs. I do have a small shaper that was made here during WWII and a large bandsaw that is US made. The saw is fine, but no better than a China product. 
If one doesn't have access to large money or used US equipment, there isn't much choice.


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## endmill (Apr 8, 2012)

Don't forget child labor laws, does China abid by them? How about dealing with a communist county? I don't care how good there quility is it  isn't right!!


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## burnrider (Apr 9, 2012)

For those of us who saw Japan's economy skyrocket, Japan could have blocked out China's rise for several decades. Eventually, some of their quality product was brought to the US as car manufacturing. Don't remember their owning huge American debt, but they were a primary supply of consumer goods. They also shopped scrap, timber and raw materials having none as an island nation.

Today China and other nations have taken the jobs, market, even the plant machinery. The last paper plant in our area shut down last year. 200 jobs gone along with all the equipment to the far east. Foreign countries are not to blame. Brazil has a new Ford campus manufacturing everything Ford on one huge tract of land to cut costs, have access to power, etc. ect. Volkswagen is soon to follow.

How do we compete with all this, or do we just become something else? 
The UK lost it's manufacturing base, becoming a financial based country. For the U.S. Canada, and Australia, what does that leave us? What do you tell kids looking for a job? About the only thing I can see in their future would be living outside the U.S. for some part of life- in the next 20 yrs.


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## ScrapMetal (Apr 9, 2012)

endmill said:


> Don't forget child labor laws, does China abid by them? How about dealing with a communist county? I don't care how good there quility is it  isn't right!!



It may not seem right to us in the present day but if you look back a number of years here in the U.S. during the "industrial revolution" we also employed what are now considered "children" in factories, sweat shops, etc. etc.  Those jobs actually raised the standard of living for the workers, that's why they took the jobs.  If a similar thing is happening in China are we not being a little hypocritical when we criticize their policies?  Heck, I remember all kinds of stories from my grandfather (born 1901) about the jobs he worked as a "child".  I never did hear him complain about having them though.

-Ron


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## dickr (Apr 26, 2012)

OOPS Thought this thread was about tools, machine tooling & fixtures. Scuse me !!!
dickr


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## HSS (Apr 27, 2012)

ScrapMetal said:


> You're not alone there.  I have a bit of trouble wrapping my mind around that as well.  It seems to me that things have to be made very cheaply, incredibly so, in order to be able to tack on the handling/shipping and still sell the product for a fraction of what a domestic product goes for.
> 
> On the other hand, they don't have to deal with all our enviromental regs, H.R. regs, health care costs, corporate taxes (ours are about the highest in the world), and liability laws.
> 
> -Ron



Or union wages. Oh, and my wife belongs to a union, so I'm not complaining, just saying.....


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