# Cheaper than a heimer tester



## mysterysniper (Aug 6, 2021)

ERDI: A Precise 3D-Indicator (3D-Taster) for Everyone!
					

Dream of machinists at an affordable price! ERDI is a measurement tool for positioning and alignment in 3D for milling machines & EDMs!




					www.kickstarter.com
				



I do not have any thing to do with said company or product
These are great to use and help the hobbist and learners on cnc or manual.


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## RJSakowski (Aug 6, 2021)

No MSRP given but for a pledge of $299, you get a unit from batch 2 for the discounted price of $299.  From their page, a Haimer is $450 so not that great a price difference.


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## Aukai (Aug 6, 2021)

Looks like they are short on the funding


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## JRaut (Aug 6, 2021)

Seems pretty scummy to me...

They're blatantly and openly ripping off a product design, then promising to make it for cheaper?

That's the same type of behavior the US manufacturing sector have been blaming China for for decades.


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## RJSakowski (Aug 6, 2021)

Raising $55K $200 and $300 at a time is tough.    It appears that the target MSRP will be somewhere between $350 - $400.  I have been involved in startups in the past.  In my experience, estimated cost of production tends to be optimistic so they will be uncomfortably close to an established product.  For a startup to work on too small a margin is a recipe for failure.


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## sdelivery (Aug 6, 2021)

JRaut said:


> Seems pretty scummy to me...
> 
> They're blatantly and openly ripping off a product design, then promising to make it for cheaper?
> 
> That's the same type of behavior the US manufacturing sector have been blaming China for for decades.


Problem is China didn't rip us off for manufacturing the powers at the top levels willing moved it there and were rewarded with bonuses and other percs. This improved there profit per share of stock to where investors wanted to be.
Most of it was short term gains realized by a few.


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## JRaut (Aug 6, 2021)

sdelivery said:


> Problem is China didn't rip us off for manufacturing the powers at the top levels willing moved it there and were rewarded with bonuses and other percs. This improved there profit per share of stock to where investors wanted to be.
> Most of it was short term gains realized by a few.


Well I won't argue with any of that.

But I still say it's pretty scummy to blatantly rip off and try to undercut the real deal.

It's done all the time, of course.

It just seems ickier when they're trying to raise money on Kickstarter to do it.


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## akjeff (Aug 7, 2021)

Blatant knockoff's like this just **** me off. I don't care if it's Chicom or otherwise, and that it's a USA based company is embarrassing to me. I hope Haimer has a patent, and buries them.


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## Jake P (Aug 7, 2021)

The bottom line on this, as I see it, is that either the Haimer is a patented product and they will pursue their legal rights or it’s not a patented product and it’s fair game.

I don’t think that someone would attempt this within the US knowing that they would be legally pursued.  From China or another place overseas, sure, but here in the US you would have to know that eventually you will lose.  

Could this just be a scam to raise funds and never deliver, perhaps.  Hard to tell without greater research, and I for one am not willing to dig that deep.  I suspect, based upon the BIO of the founder of the company doing this (DDR, Direct Drive Robotics), and this is assuming that the BIO is legit, that he is not going into this blindly.

I have supported a few kickstarter campaigns over the years to help out an upstart, and so far have always received what I paid for.  But this time around I just can’t see how this would be of enough benefit in my usage to justify the cost.  This is certainly a great time saving tool, but it doesn’t seem to do anything more than other tools that I already have can do.


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## projectnut (Aug 7, 2021)

sdelivery said:


> Problem is China didn't rip us off for manufacturing the powers at the top levels willing moved it there and were rewarded with bonuses and other percs. This improved there profit per share of stock to where investors wanted to be.
> Most of it was short term gains realized by a few.


Don't forget the part about the fact that the end product is sold to customers here in the US.  Most companies move production over seas when passing along the costs of doing business increases the retail price to the point that they start loosing customers to less expensive alternatives.  You can't expect them to pay their employees an average of $21.00 per hour and compete with companies that are paying $3.60 per hour.  If we were willing to pay the difference in retail price to keep the jobs here they would remain.

This is the same argument used by local retailers when a big box store tries to move into a small town.  All the local retailers are up in arms saying they will be ruined.  If the local residents were willing to pay a higher price for the same goods sold by local retailers the big box stores wouldn't have the business, wouldn't be profitable, and wouldn't survive.  However most people base their purchasing decisions their personal cost, not how it will effect the business down the street.


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## rwm (Aug 7, 2021)

Even the Chinese knockoffs are more expensive!








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R

Edit: actually that might be a real one!


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## rwm (Aug 7, 2021)

Is it possible to build one of these? I don't need tenths accuracy, just 0.001". Seems like that would be tricky with the probe.
Robert


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## projectnut (Aug 7, 2021)

If that's a knock off they went all the way as far as copying.  Down to printing "Made in Germany" on the dial face.  Unfortunately it does happen.  One case I'm aware of is Golden Goose drill chucks.  Back in the late 70's and early 80's a company out of Taiwan made a variety of keyed drill chucks.  They weren't quite as good as the vintage Jacobs chucks, but sold at a fraction of the price.

As things heated up between the mainland and the Taiwanese government factories on the mainland started copying these chucks.  They looked almost identical, but the materials and workmanship were far inferior.  People purchasing the chucks were believing they were purchasing them from the original manufacturer.  They started failing in large numbers and being returned to the original manufacturer.  The company tried to explain that they were not originals, but rather poor copies.  In the end they stopped making keyed chucks to keep their reputation intact.  Copies of the original Golden Goose keyed drill chucks are still being made on the mainland.  They are far from the original quality, but they're about the only game in that area these days.  They've driven the competition out of the market and are offering a lower quality product at prices now at or above what the originals sold for.


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## RJSakowski (Aug 7, 2021)

A patent was issued to Fritz Haimer in 1994 and expired in 2012.  The idea behind patents is that the inventor discloses to the public the details of his invention for their use in exchange for an exclusive right to manufacture for a limited time.  To that end, someone making a copy of a patented product with the idea of making it cheaper or better is not "scummy". edit: Once the patent has expired.

If an inventor wishes to hold on to an innovative idea forever, he/she should retain it as a trade secret.  Rather hard to do in this case but we did it with a manufacturing process for a product we made.  We felt that no one could deduce our methods by any examination of the product.


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## projectnut (Aug 7, 2021)

RJSakowski said:


> A patent was issued to Fritz Haimer in 1994 and expired in 2012.  The idea behind patents is that the inven5tor discloses to the public the details of his invention for their use in exchange for an exclusive right to manufacture for a limited time.  To that end, someone making a copy of a patented product with the idea of making it cheaper or better is not "scummy".
> 
> *If an inventor wishes to hold on to an innovative idea forever, he/she should retain it as a trade secret.  Rather hard to do in this case but we did it with a manufacturing process for a product we made.  We felt that no one could deduce our methods by any examination of the product.*




Agreed.  The company I worked for originally patented all of it's processing and packaging machinery.  Over time competitors made just enough of the machines to accomplish the same processes, but avoid infringing on the patents.  In about 1980 they stopped patenting the entire machines.  They did however patent some critical components.  The remainder of the machines were held as trade secrets.

No vendors, contractors, sales people or any other outside personnel were allowed to see the machinery or the prints without signing a non disclosure statement.  All employees were also required to sign a non disclosure statement.  We did have one incident where a disgruntled employee copied  prints of one of the more sophisticated machines and tried to sell them to a competitor.  It didn't turn out well for him.  He was fired, lost all his pension and retirement benefits, was fined, and faced the possibility of jail time should he make another attempt at selling company secrets.


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## akjeff (Aug 7, 2021)

Well, if Haimer's patent has expired, then it's fair game!


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## rwm (Aug 8, 2021)

US5365673A - Multi-coordinate sensing gauge          - Google Patents
					

The multi-coordinate sensing gauge of the invention comprises a sensing arm 7 displaceable relative to a housing 3 in the direction of a main coordinate axis 5 and guided on the housing 3 to be omnidirectionally pivotable about a first pivot point 19 located on the said main coordinate axis 5 by...



					patents.google.com


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