# Introduction And Grizzly South Bend Lathe Question



## Thunderbird (Oct 26, 2016)

Hello everyone,

After spending the last 6 months or so window shopping, I am getting much closer to purchasing my first serious lathe.  I was hoping to get some opinions in this forum as one of the machines under serious consideration is a (Grizzly) South Bend.  If I have placed this in the wrong forum, please forgive me.  This will serve a long introduction and some questions all in one place.


*Who am I?*

A *very* serious woodworker, collector of military vehicles, and competitive shooter. In my real job, I’m a product-line chief engineer for a major defense contractor.  I took several machining courses in college (which my children believe to be about the time dinosaurs were going extinct) and used manual machines exclusively during that time.  My company has trained me as a “machinist” to mitigate failure to meet our contractual obligations should our machinist’s union go on strike.  The training is CNC oriented, and as you can imagine, those of us from the engineering staff which have taken the training are reasonably unpopular with the union machinists who regularly operate my company’s equipment.  So I’ve had virtually no time on the machines for which my employee file claims me to be “qualified” on.  LOL!


*What do I want to accomplish?*

Maintenance and modification of my toys for other hobbies is my primary motivation for buying a lathe.  My woodworking machines are all commercial-grade German or Italian machines (Felder, and Mini-Max, primarily).  While they run very well, I find myself modifying and adapting them to a more American-style of work.  For example, my big sliding table saw had weird metric dust collection ports and a very poor hood surrounding the blade.  I welded a new hood and modified the machine extensively to take my preferred 6” collection hose. On my wide belt sander, I made in-feed and out-feed outriggers to support doors and table tops as they were running through the machine.  A lathe would have made both mods much easier! I hand formed and welded the dust collection collars, for example, where they could have been nicely machined of aluminum were I to have had the equipment.  The rollers on the outriggers were necessarily sourced as-is, where I would have preferred to machine a recess to accept bearings in steel tube of a length I wanted.

On the larger end of the scale, the military trucks *always* have something wrong.  I suppose that’s why the military sold them in the first place.  Parts are difficult to find, as well.  I just spent $800 on an engine accessory bracket for my M923A2.  I could have made one for virtually nothing with a 15” or larger lathe.

Of course, the guns fill the small end of my desires.  I’ve got two barrels sitting here now waiting to go off to the machinist to be threaded for suppressors.  It’s a pain to mail them, and it kills me to spend money on what seems to be a reasonably simple job.  There’s lots of other barrel and gunsmith-style work I’m sure I’d do if only I had the machine to do it.


*What I have now.*

MIG, TIG, and OA welding equipment.  Plasma torch. Bending equipment. Cold saw. Band saw. Sad little Rong Fu Mill-Drill I got in a trade but has served me for what little I ask of it. Piles of woodworking machines, not that they matter to this discussion.  A spacious three-car garage in Tucson to store it all in.  The garage only gets to about 1000 degrees in the summer time, and 50 or so in the winter.  No three-phase power currently, but the garage has a dedicated 100 amp subpanel I ran just for the machines.  I’ve got a 10hp three-phase motor laying around, and am planning on mating it up to a phase-craft panel soon to make a little RPC.


*The machines under consideration.*

Before I start off, while I appreciate opinions on used American vs new Imported machines, my intent here is not to re-ignite a debate on such.  Both have their merits and drawbacks.

I am strongly considering the Grizzly South Bend SB1012 pictured below.  It is a 14”x40” machine, capable of 20-2500 rpm from it’s variable speed 5HP motor and two speed gearbox.  It appears to weigh ~2900 lbs, cut nearly every thread in common use, and comes with a good selection of tools.  At ~$10k on sale, it is nearly half off its original asking price.  As this appears to be a Taiwanese RML 1440 from Sun Master (with the exception of the unique 3 v-way bed), this sounds like a very good deal.  Comparable RMLs from Kent, PM, MSC, etc. seem to be running in the neighborhood of $~15K.

View media item 95544
I am also strongly considering a used Mori Seiki MS850 as shown in the picture below.  It is a 17”x31” (roughly) machine, with 12 spindle speeds ranging from 32 to 1800.  This machine also has a 5 hp motor, yet weighs considerably more than the South Bend at ~4100 lbs.  The machine in the picture was built in Japan I believe, and is being offered by a reputable dealer in Los Angeles for ~$12K.  It also comes nicely tooled.

View media item 95545
While I am attracted to the extra bed length and spindle speed of the South Bend, I am also attracted to the higher weight and larger swing of the Mori.  While I am always shopping for a bargain, the price difference between these two choices is negligible to me and not a factor.  Weight is also not a factor as I own a forklift capable of lifting either one.  I realize the new machine will need some minor maintenance and alignment to make it run properly; likely will the older as well.  I’m not looking to take on rebuilding a machine as a hobby, so I would like a machine in good condition.  I have limited capability to assess the true condition of the Mori, and will be relying on visual inspection of the general condition and the dealer’s assessment.

Sooo... Given my background and intended usage, which machine would you choose?


Thanks in advance for any replies!  I’ll update status when I pull the trigger on a purchase, regardless of what machine I choose.


Jon

Edit... Obviously I'm struggling with the images.  While they would have been relevant to the discussion, I give up.  Hopefully my descriptions are enough.


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## tweinke (Oct 26, 2016)

Welcome aboard! I am the last one to give you advice on the machines you mention due to lack of experience but I'm sure someone will be along that can help.


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## JimDawson (Oct 26, 2016)

Welcome aboard!  If you can live with the shorter bed length, the Mori would be my choice if it is in good shape.  Those are nice machines, very high end.  Even for gunsmithing the Mori would not be bad, it has a big spindle hole.

On images, use the upload button, or copy and paste from a web page into a photo editor and then copy & paste from the photo editor to your post.  I find the copy & paste method seems to work the best, and is the most reliable


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## mksj (Oct 26, 2016)

I actually think the SB1012 is a steal at its current price and until the stock is gone. It is basically and RML-1440 as you noted but configured for Grizzly. With the EVS, VFD with a 5Hp motor, D1-6 spindle and accessories, there is nothing close in this price range with this level of features and quality. It looks like Grizzly is closing down the SB branding machines, which where overpriced at their list prices in my thinking. But for the current pricing, the SB1012 is a monster of a machine. Grizzly is probably the biggest player in the hobbyist machine spectrum, and support/parts should not be an issue. It would appear that many of the SB machines are based on the standard Grizzly line, just with better parts/finish. The fit and finish/function on the Taiwanese machines is very good, and no need to kick the tires or deal with trying to find parts if you need them. This would be the machine I would get if I had the space and a forklift to move it.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 27, 2016)

Thank you all for your replies so far.  The spindle bore on both machines is just a bit over 2", so that may make up for the shorter bed on the Mori.  When I was competing in FCSA (Fifty Caliber Shooter's Association) I had a gun built on a McMillan action with a Krieger barrel.  If I recall, the blank was 1-3/4" diameter x 36" long.  I'm assuming with a bit of ingenuity that such a blank could be chambered and finished on either of the machines I've considered on account of the large spindle bore.  I mostly play with .22s now that I have children, and barrel lengths typically don't exceed 20".  I've often read that the majority of lathe work happens near the chuck, so in my mind the large spindle bore somewhat mitigates short beds.  Of course, as soon as I get a lathe with a short bed, I'll want to turn a 6"x48:" hydraulic cylinder. Such is the way my life works.  

I see you're in Tucson, mksj.  Perhaps Grizzly will give us a 2-for-1 discount?!?  I'll bring my forklift.

I'm going to drive to Phoenix tomorrow to look at a Kent RML and (hopefully) a Webb/Takisawa Mori clone.  Maybe seeing similar lathes in person will help sway me one way or another.

Jon


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## Thunderbird (Oct 31, 2016)

Well, though I liked the Kent RML I viewed in Phoenix, it appears that the Grizzly is back off sale.  Looks like there will be a new (to me, lol) Mori in my future.

Thank you all for your input.  I appreciate it!

Jon


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