# Thoughts on Tormach pcnc-440?



## GunsOfNavarone

So first up, I want to get my feet wet in the home shop CNC world. If I can do some light aluminum router work, then great. I am willing to spend 1-2K on the unit. That seems to be a water cooled, 1.5KW VFD motor with 4 axis 15" by 25" working area. Here is the lower end of that list...
Ebay CNC
Thoughts and opinions? I think having this and learning that build and code will help me tremendously when CNC'ing my lathe and mill. I realize this is no 800 pound mill, just fun for odds and ends though I am NOT a wood guy, metal really is a must, obviously SOFT metals.


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## JimDawson

Will it cut aluminum?  Yes, but the finish is not going to be as good as from a milling machine just due to the flex and vibration of the machine.  Heavy mist coolant is a must when cutting aluminum.  

It won't be long before you appreciate the way a milling machine is built vs. a router.  But it will give you experience with G code and controls.


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## matthewsx

Can you work with plastic?

John


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## GunsOfNavarone

Don’t need plastic for much...
so it leads to this... Tormach pcnc -440 I know it’s a no brainer, but 1-2k vs $6k
Tormach


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## GunsOfNavarone

Or the 
X-carve


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## GunsOfNavarone

I'm seriously considering the Tormach 440. The worst dirt I can find is some people report "excessive backlash". What I read is .003" More or less. Not really an issue for me at this juncture. I have no idea about the company or their products, for its capabilities, $6k sounds like a great deal


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## matthewsx

Ok, so now you're getting serious. At first it sounded like you just wanted a cheap router to get your feet wet with CNC but now you're getting ready to step up.

I think you've convinced yourself to go with the Tormach. We have a local dealer for them here in Santa Cruz and I want to get them to fire one up for me when the lockdown lets them open back up. It has about the same working envelope and specs as my project machine, and I know a lot of hobbyists are happy with both the tool and support. Their tooling system is used by lots of DIY CNC builders too. I don't think you can go wrong with that machine and I doubt the router will be good enough with metal to justify the price.

But....

How much space and power do you have in your shop? Once you get above ~$4k you start getting close to used industrial VMC's with a whole lot more capability than the Tormach.

It really comes down to what you see yourself doing, if you're just gonna make small stuff, and you value support go with the Tormach. But if you have the space and inclination to take on a project your $6k can buy a whole lot more machine. 


John


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## GunsOfNavarone

Thanks for the input John. I actually did look at used industrial machines just for sh1ts & giggles... yeah, just the shear weight tells me no.
I am really curious what a 440 owner thinks once the shiny wears off. I am so licking at the bit right now...I think this is where my wife has to give up her half of the garage....


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## bakrch

The 440 is a neat little machine. Normally I think it is too close to the 770 in price, but with the sale they have going right now, it is tempting to grab one myself.

With that said, I think I'll hold out as I am about 75% of the way to a nicely spec'd 770M.


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## GunsOfNavarone

What sale? I've built 3 different machines on there site...haven't came across any sales there...


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## bakrch

GunsOfNavarone said:


> What sale? I've built 3 different machines on there site...haven't came across any sales there...



Weird, I guess that ended very recently, but when it was active it wouldn't show until you were in the checkout phase. ($1k off on the premium package I had in my cart)


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## MillersvilleProf

Tormach is a good company to work with. I used to teach at the University of North Dakota and purchased a Tormach PCNC 1100 mill several years ago while at that program. We did have some board issues with it at the time and they walked us through the repairs. At the time I liked the fact that the Tormach was open architecture and figured if their company ever went belly up we could still work with the machine, since that time the company has only gotten bigger and my guess is that they will be around for awhile. You shouldn't have any trouble cutting even alloy steel with the 440 as long as you remember the size of the machine and are conservative with feeds and speeds. I routinely milled A2 steel on the one we had at the university and never had a problem. I know of a few custom knife makers who have used the 440 effectively for making folding knives so it is well within the capabilities of the machine. They are handy machines to have. Even in my current lab at Millersville that has three VMC machines, I often use our small little Wabeco mill which is very close to the 440 in size for a lot of smaller projects.


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## GunsOfNavarone

It’s funny, a 770 came up in Craigslist for 14k and now a 440 for 8k. I really think I should jump on the 440. 5 years old about 300 hours, mostly plastic.


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## RJSakowski

The 440 wasn't available when I bought my PCNC770.  However, had it been, I still would have gone with the 770.  The primary reasons being the larger work envelope and greater spindle power.  Two years ago, I did an apples to apples comparison of the two.  Here it is.

All that said, there is some impressive work being done on the 440.  If space were a factor or if I was on a tight budget, I would have gone with the 440.  BTW, the package that I pirchased was over $14,000.  Those extras add up in a hurry.


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## GunsOfNavarone

Yeah @RJSakowski  don't know if you priced them lately, but just a decent setup is about 13k (440) and about 17k for 770
I really should do this, No shipping charges, extras, and well under what I would have paid. I don't know if there has been any changes to design in last 5 years that make it worth it, but they tend to be 6 to 8 week build out.

***just emailed the guy to go check it out. @RJSakowski is there anything I should look for on the Tormach? Play in motor/head bearings? Backlash in table axis'? I'm gonna take a piece of stainless and an end mill to see what break loose.


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## RJSakowski

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Yeah @RJSakowski  don't know if you priced them lately, but just a decent setup is about 13k (440) and about 17k for 770
> I really should do this, No shipping charges, extras, and well under what I would have paid. I don't know if there has been any changes to design in last 5 years that make it worth it, but they tend to be 6 to 8 week build out.
> 
> ***just emailed the guy to go check it out. @RJSakowski is there anything I should look for on the Tormach? Play in motor/head bearings? Backlash in table axis'? I'm gonna take a piece of stainless and an end mill to see what break loose.



I believe that the 440 hasn't changed significantly since its release. The 770 and 1100 have been extensively changed since I bought mine.  Mine is a 2011 Series 3 and the new models are 770M, 770MX, 110M, and 1100MX.  

Spin the motor at 10K and listen for any noise as it winds down.  That would be indicative of a bad spindle bearing.  If they were running plastic, more than likely they ran at higher rpm.  

You can measure backlash on the table fairly easily.  Use the side of the vise or a block as a reference and mount a dial indicator in the spindle.  Approach the block a few thousandths past the initial contact point.  . Zero the indicator and also the DRO.  Take the table another .010" and then back out until your dial indicator reads zero.  The reading on the DRO is your backlash.  There are several factors that affect backlash, including loose gibs, too tight gibs, worn ball nut, insufficient thrust bearing preload, and worn ball screw. According to Tormach, you should be between .001 and .0015" backlash or lost motion.  You can check the spindle in a similar manner.  Other things to check would be table flatness and tram.  Not being familiar with the 440, I can't give you specific advice and a full check can get really involved.  A simple check of tram against the table in the x and y directions would be in order.


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## GunsOfNavarone

Thanks RJ, Spindle bearings, X,Y,Z backlash and you think checking tram of the head? Wouldn't that just be adjustment? I mean there couldn't be anything bent to cause tram to be off...correct? It will be a full tear down and reset of the head to move the thing...


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## RJSakowski

Tram on the 770 is factory set.  I don't know about the 440 but I assume the same.  The 770 tram is fixed in the x direction by two tapered dowel pins and as such usually not adjustable.  The y axis tram is fixed at the factory.  An out of tram condition could be present because of a serious crash or, in the y direction because of sag due to a loose z axis gib.  There are remedies but not appropriate for the situation.  Rather, I would note them to the seller and maybe negotiate the price.

Download the operators manual and pay particular attention to section 9.3.  https://tormach.com/support/mill/pcnc-440-documents


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## GunsOfNavarone

For those of you playing along with the home version ....I am probably picking up the 440 this Tuesday. Fingers crossed all pans out! Will most likely need to sell the PM727m just for the space needs..


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## GunsOfNavarone

Here we go...


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## GunsOfNavarone

$7200 an TEN HOURS later...Tormach is home.


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## GunsOfNavarone

So after hours of watching the prior owner rn some amzing things, I now realize that path pilot isn't a full blown CAM software, What are you using RJ? I'm really curious about MESHCam, The easiest intro software would be great, I have a ok grasp on Fusion360, but not in a real life environment. I need to find something for the manufacturing side.


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## RJSakowski

Path Pilot isn't CAM.  It has a bunch of conversational routines that can be strung together to make a fairly complex routine but a CAM program can input a 3D model and with manipulation from you and generate usable G code for your Tormach to run.  PathPilot will convert the G code into instructions that the 440 can run.  It isn't capable of generating G code from a complex curve like a spline.

I bought SprutCAM with my machine and still use it.  I have a seat of SolidWorks for my CAD program to create the 3D models.  I also have Fusion 360 on my computer but I really haven't used it.


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## Boswell

There are a number of capable CAM packages out there. I personally use BobCad and many people have been very happy with Fusion360 (especially the price)

Also a number of threads on CAM package selection.


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## GunsOfNavarone

@Boswell I was hoping to find such a thread on CAM selection, coming up pretty much blank. I am very intrigued by MeshCam but nothing comes up on it.


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## matthewsx

Running LinuxCNC
		


John


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## burtonbr

For me I believe that for the price, Fusion360 is the most capable Cam available, it is not hard to learn, no harder than any other cam software, and can be Free as a hobbyist and Under startup Licenses, but even a full commercial version is affordable given it's capabilities. there are 1000's of tutorials and examples on the web for beginners


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## GunsOfNavarone

Thanks @burtonbr i have been learning F369 last 12 months or so, I’m ok with it but have just started ranking with the CAM part vs the CAD. It’s not easy whereas MeshCam looks excellent for toolpaths. I can’t find any info on it here in a search..


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## GunsOfNavarone

@matthewsx funny you posted that, the path pilot computer with the Tormach runs Linux which is ALL NEW to me.


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## GunsOfNavarone

@RJSakowski what are you running for edge finding or probing of your stock? They have a lot of options, though this machine did come with one of the analog units (Haimer?) I’d like something a bit more automated.


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## RJSakowski

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @RJSakowski what are you running for edge finding or probing of your stock? They have a lot of options, though this machine did come with one of the analog units (Haimer?) I’d like something a bit more automated.



I use a plain old mechanical edge finder.  I use it because it always references to the spindle axis and, with care I am repeatable to +/1 .0001".  The Haimer is supposed to be one of the better solutions although their tips are fragile and expensive.  There is a crash resistant electronic probe from New Zealand that is supposed to be quite good but I nave no personal experience with it.  https://hallmarkdesign.co.nz/probe.  If I were to buy an electronic touch probe, it would probably be that one.

For z axis, I use a tenths reading digital dial indicator and I have the TTS tool package.  My indicator is tool 0 in the tool table and I zero it on the mill and set the DRO zero and zero it on the height gage so all my tools are referenced to it.


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## burtonbr

Probing is cool, one of the best features I think. I use a probe probably more than any other tool. I use it for WCS setting, measurements and inspection, I have verified that mine is within .0005 error which is good enough for me, I use the ITTP (impact tolerant touch probe) saves $ in my opinion on broken tips that are around &45-$100 ea. Had the Tormach model and Even the Tormach passive probe can be pretty accurate Less than .001 when adjusted correctly. There are a few other options that work with PP, Drewtronics has a less expensive option that may not be as accurate but works for many And a gentleman in the U.K. has developed a accessory to go wireless if that’s your preference


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## RJSakowski

I believe that the ITTP probe now has a wireless option.


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## burtonbr

an accessory for it to be wireless is available from xoomspeed, David loomes But it’s a little expensive at 275gbp.


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## GunsOfNavarone

I'm not sure why but, it seems as if all the probing are for 770's and above??


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## burtonbr

No not at all, 440 has everything required for passive probes, the 770 and 1100 can use either passive or active type probes which like the ETS the 440 can not use either, but there’s passive ETS available also


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## GunsOfNavarone

I see the passive probe...  .015" repeatability? That's pretty rough, but I'm not so sure about using jog dial & a piece of paper to roughly guesstimate x,y,z...is that how it's done?? Got a lot to learn I admit.


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## burtonbr

that’s .015mm or .00059” it is definitely repeatable to .001” at least that has been my experience. The paper, or feeler gauge trick works well once you get the hang of it, there are some good you tube videos on it, I’ll find a link. A 1-2-3 block works well for setting tool length offsets.

this video is worth watching on edge finders,


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## GunsOfNavarone

OH MAN! My bad! Did that say mm not inch. I'm just so darn used to always reading inch anymore...I've actually tried to switch over from my metric ways as inch seems to be more widely used in the US of A. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, definitely can work with .015 mm
Thanks @burtonbr  !


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## matthewsx

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @matthewsx fubny you posted that, the path pilot computer with the Tormach runs Linux which is ALL NEW to me.



Yep,

Linux, the software you use every day without knowing it. Pretty much everything on the Internet is running on some flavor of Linux. My Ubuntu desktop is just as good as my Mac and better than my Windows machine.

LinuxCNC will run off a USB thumb drive if you want to try it out. I don't know anything about Fusion360 but I know enough about software companies to doubt that anyone not using an open source license is giving away "free" software.

John


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## BGHansen

You can also hit Tormach's web site and go to the "PathPilot HUB" link (at the top left).  Create a user name and password and you are in.  It gives you a virtual "seat" at your mill's controller.  I use it all of the time when writing/debugging routines as my shop is 50 yards from the house.  Smarter person would just buy a laptop and run CAD from it, but we have an HP workstation with a 24" monitor in the house, I like the big monitor.

You can transfer tool tables back and forth also.  Go to the OFFSET tab in PathPilot and you'll see buttons for EXPORT and IMPORT.  I'll add a tool in the shop (tool#, diameter and length), EXPORT the tool offset table to the PathPilot controller.  Then copy it to a jump drive and IMPORT it to virtual PathPilot at the house.  Very handy tool.

Bruce


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## GunsOfNavarone

Not sure all that made sense, but the logging into a virtual machine sounds like there could be applications for me at a later time.


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## GunsOfNavarone

I am playing with different software, just downloaded Mach4. Does this REPLACE the PathPilot controller? Do you plug the parallel plug into the computer running Mach 4 and not use the Tormach computer at all? I was under the belief that the Tormach has it's own controller and you really are "stuck" with it. Sorry I know very little about CAM or control software and not 100% about the Tormach.


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## RJSakowski

When I bought my Tormach, it was running  Mach 3 on a Win XP platform.  PathPilot is based on LinuxCNC and runs on a Linux platform.  In addition, PathPilot requires a special daughter board for the mesa interface and doesn't use the parallel port.  Supposedly, the use of this board eliminates some conflicts that can arise when using the parallel port.

It is my understanding the PathPilot is superior to Mach4. I have no personal knowledge of that though.  It is certainly superior to Mach 3.  The only thing that I miss converting from Mach 3 to PathPilot is the loss of the Wizards.  I loaded the old system on a second computer so I can access the Wizards.  I configure them on the second computer and save the G code to a flash drive  so I can load it into PathPilot.

You should be able to run Mach 4 on a second computer and just switch the cable.  There is nothing in the 440 itself that I am aware of that would prevent that.


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## GunsOfNavarone

Alright, so I really don't see a compelling reason to go with Mach4. I'm good with Fusion360 for designing and creating tool paths. SO there is my design and g-code, not really anything else needed. I will say, the guy I bought the 440 from had some crazy expensive software and he ran a design, I'll post a picture, but it was well over 100k lines of code, the finish it put on a complex shape with a flat, 4 flute end mill was crazy. All software (CAM particularly) are not created the same. I just cant do much with Path Pilot.
I needed to put axis/height lines on some 3d printed PLA blocks I made. I couldn't do it with the conversational software. Am I missing something? So I need to find that right software for CAD and CAM the learn it. I can't keep learning new ones...its too much for me. Being I don't really need controller software like Mach, that's one less I need to spend time on.


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## RJSakowski

I'm curious as to what your limitations with PathPilot are.  IMO, the conversational part of PathPilot is limited to rather simple routines. For more complex parts, you really need to use a CAD program to create the solid model and a CAM program to create the g-code.  It is not impossible to manually create g-code for a complex part but it is a tedious, error prone process.  The real strength of CNC lies is its use of CAM derived g-code.

If you are reasonably proficient using Fusion for CAD, I would suggest using it for the CAM as well.  I haven't used Fusion to create g-code myself (I still use the SprutCAM that I bought in 2011) but from what I have seen, it has some impressive routines.


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## GunsOfNavarone

@RJSakowski Please remember I am NEW to this, that being said, I was simply trying to etch horizontal lines across a jig I made for work. The length of the part I made with 1.5mm spacing between the 5 lines. I could not figure out how to do that. It SEEMS if you were to make a flat part with a boss and a pocket, with a few holes, you could do it. Again, if I wanted to make...say a top tree of a motorcycle fork tube/handle bar, it's not terribly complex but I don't think its possible. I'm getting decent with F360, so that's good, I read you can import in a dxf file, I always just bring in g-code, but I'm curious what I do with that file instead. I will post that pic of the part the previous owner made while I watched. I gotta say, the final product is very impressive and I'm curious if I could do that with F360 with the same quality of final product.


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## GunsOfNavarone

This was done with a 1/4” square end, 4 flute end mill...nothing else! About 10-15 minutes, the main roughing passes were shooting some impressive chips..
View attachment trim.593C5470-BCC7-4066-9E7A-76EEB9C43B68.MOV


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## burtonbr

thats a nice part, that wouldn’t be too difficult to CAM in Fusion360. finish could be as smooth as you’d like it depending on step down/stepover settings.
you could do straight lines engrave in PathPilot Like you talk about using face and the correct inputs then for more than one just input location of the second and append it to the first G-code file you saved and so on for how ever many you need, though it would be simpler in fusion It can be done as conversational.


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## RJSakowski

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @RJSakowski Please remember I am NEW to this, that being said, I was simply trying to etch horizontal lines across a jig I made for work. The length of the part I made with 1.5mm spacing between the 5 lines. I could not figure out how to do that. It SEEMS if you were to make a flat part with a boss and a pocket, with a few holes, you could do it. Again, if I wanted to make...say a top tree of a motorcycle fork tube/handle bar, it's not terribly complex but I don't think its possible. I'm getting decent with F360, so that's good, I read you can import in a dxf file, I always just bring in g-code, but I'm curious what I do with that file instead. I will post that pic of the part the previous owner made while I watched. I gotta say, the final product is very impressive and I'm curious if I could do that with F360 with the same quality of final product.


The simplest way to engrave lines with the Tormach is to use the jog/shuttle.  (assuming your lines are parallel to an axis) Truth ne known, mpost of the the work I do in my Tormach is with the jog shuttle. I do this because for simple cuts it is far easier than creating a model, importing into CAM and creating a g-code program.  It is essentially the same as manual milling except that I am twisting a shuttle dial rather than turning a crank.

In your case, I would positing my engraving tool for the desired depth of cut and at a starting position collinear with the desired line and use the shuttle to cut the line.  Next easiest is to write a small set of g-code instructions using the MDI.  As you create the instructions line by line, they are retained in memory and can be recalled.  The instruction F10G1 X0 Y0 Z-.02 will move the cutting tool to coordinates 0,0,-.02 at a speed of 10 inches/min.  The command X2 will move the tool to coordinates 2,0,-.02 at 10 in/min.  Assuming that your tool height was set at zero at the surface, you will have engraved a line .020" deep in your part.I would use this if I wanted to make a diagonal cut across x and y.  For example,if the second line was X2 Y2, the cutting tool would make a diagonal pass at a45º angle from 0,0 to 2,2.

Where CAD/CAM comes into its own is when .you have a complex shape to machine.  Here is an example.  There were nearly a quarter of a million lines of g-code.


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## GunsOfNavarone

@burtonbr i tried the engrave and the only option was the minus sign. I tried a bunch of those strung together but there was a small gap between each one.
@RJSakowski I did end up just not dialing it. Either way, I'm just new to CNC and Path Pilot, I'll get better but just from the start it seemed limited. Also, what do you recommend to engrave steel? Drag tool? That looks beautiful what ever you used!


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## RJSakowski

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @burtonbr i tried the engrave and the only option was the minus sign. I tried a bunch of those strung together but there was a small gap between each one.
> @RJSakowski I did end up just not dialing it. Either way, I'm just new to CNC and Path Pilot, I'll get better but just from the start it seemed limited. Also, what do you recommend to engrave steel? Drag tool? That looks beautiful what ever you used!


I used a carbide engraving tool.  Since Chinese characters vary in width and can come to a virtual sharp, the tool I chose had a a 22.5º taper.  I set my CAM up to do a roughing waterline which means that it will machine everything on a given plane with the proviso that it will not cut into the part.  Iset the depth increment at .001" with a maximum depth of .040".  This resulted in a 22.5º angle on the sides of the engraving and variable depth depending on the width of the character at any given point.  The Chinese charcter portion had 229,874 lines of code.  I had to run the English text portion as a second program due to line number limitations of the SprutCAM post processor.   

The text portion was run with a a 1mm carbide end mill using the same strategy but  but running a .0025" depth of cut to a final depth of .050".  I probably could have pushed the end mill harder with an increased depth of cut but I played it conservatively as it was the only piece of brass that I had.There were 189,576 lines of code in that portion.

These are similar to the engraving tools that I used.








						Engraving Tool Carbide Cutters bit 30 45 60 degree set 6pcs 1/8 dia Dremel  USA  | eBay
					

They can be used in a cnc that is what I personally use them for, engraving highly detailed various logos in tool steel.



					www.ebay.com


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## RJSakowski

@GunsOfNavarone , I use the jog/shuttle a lot because I am not a typist.  When I went to high school, boys took shop and girls took typing.  My eyesight isn't improving  lately either.  I get by on line thanks to the backspace key and spell check but when running the CNC, a mis-typed character in the MDI can be disastrous.


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## GunsOfNavarone

For those of you with the passive probe, does that essentially set the WCS for me? I mean, i understand it's and edge finder, and as long as it finds x, y and z on one corner, you're good to go, but it goes a step further and finds all four corners? I'm just trying to justify the cost with potential benefits.


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## BGHansen

GunsOfNavarone said:


> For those of you with the passive probe, does that essentially set the WCS for me? I mean, i understand it's and edge finder, and as long as it finds x, y and z on one corner, you're good to go, but it goes a step further and finds all four corners? I'm just trying to justify the cost with potential benefits.


I have a Wildhorse econoprobe. As you mentioned,  it works like an edge finder in x, y and z. For x, y, I set it about 1/2" off the corner and tap the "find corner " button.  It defaults to the inside left side of a vise jaw, but another button walks the selection around the 4 corners.  You can also pick up just one edge. The routine finds x, then y.

For z, I set the probe about 1/2" over the work and hit the "set z" button.  The routine brings the probe down at 25"/min feed rate, touches,  then backs off and repeats at a slower rate (4"/min).

I always trigger the probe manually first just to check it's plugged in correctly though I leave it plugged in all the time.

I guess you can find the coordinate of an edge by slowly jogging the probe into the work.  Pathpilot will halt movement if the probe is tripped.  It might have that function built into the edge finder routine,  not at my machine to verify.  Would make sense that Pathpilot would find an edge without changing coordinates also, I just haven't used it.

I really like the probe.  It also has routines to find the center of a boss or pocket. Definitively a time saver though they run close to $200 (or closer to $1000 for the Tormach one).

Bruce


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## GunsOfNavarone

@BGHansen I had never heard of them before, much less money than any other I've looked at. Every thing I need from them is still just under $150?? INCLUDING tool height setter??
I


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## BGHansen

Here's a link to the one I have.  I bought an extra probe tip and a couple of other things too.  Just ran a check on a 3/8" shaft, Tormach interface, combo ETS/probe, standard 2" long 1/8" diameter probe at $132.40.  I can't find a copy of my invoice, but probably paid $160 or so with the extras.

I did remake one part of mine.  The body of the probe is 2 pieces of aluminum, I'll call them the body and the attaching plate.  Those two thread together.  Mine only had about 1/8-turn of thread engagement, granted, on a 2+' diameter.  I'd learned to rotate the probe in the spindle clockwise to always tighten the body into the attaching plate.  That is after turning it CCW a few times and having the body and top plate spring apart.  I turned a new top plate with better thread engagement, but still turn it CW so the body is always tightening into the top plate.  

I don't use mine as a tool setter as I have a Tormach ETS.  To use the econoprobe as an ETS, you unscrew the probe tip and screw in a touch plate.  You also have to remove the mounting shaft that goes to the top plate.  You could make a table mount adapter that would allow the TTS tool holder to drop into (like the Tormach surface plate with the hole in it for tool measurements).  Then just unscrew the tip, screw in the plate, and set the probe upside down in the adapter to save a step. 

The cumbersome thing in my current set up is the probe and ETS logic are reversed, one is Normally Open, other is Normally Closed.  I have to go to the setting tab to change between the two before probing or using the ETS.  Frankly, for a onesie tool measurement, I've found it quicker to manually measure the tool length on the Tormach surface plate and height gauge.  The height gauge has a USB plug to directly dump the measurement into the tool offset table, but I just manually type the number in.  An advantage of using the Econoprobe for both would be not having to change the settings between NO & NC logic.

Not to belabor it (but too late. . .), Millfast Products makes a box for around $100 that auto-switches between the two logic states.  Advantage would be my ETS and passive probe could both be plugged into the controller and I wouldn't have to fiddle with the switch logic in the settings menu.  I have one of their remote E-stops on my 1100 and would love to get the switch box but they have been out of stock since before Christmas and don't respond to emails.

Bruce




			wildhorse-innovations.com


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## GunsOfNavarone

Well, I bought the probe and ETS...I know who I'm hitting up with question! Joking aside, I have no Idea what you say you need to fiddle with, I really  haven't so much as looked at the probe tab at this point...no idea how it works.


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## BGHansen

It can be overwhelming, but it's all logical and makes sense (eventually).  I bought my Tormach used from a seller in Fort Lupton, about 30 miles North of you.  PathPilot has a settings tab for some basic set-ups.  One is selecting between a Digitizing Probe/ETS or Passive Probe.  The difference between the two settings (as the machine controller sees it) is the switch state when tripped.  

Need to go to the Settings page to switch between a NO digitizing probe/ETS and a NC passive probe



I think off the top of my head that the passive probe is normal closed.  In the non-tripped state, the switch is closed or "the light switch is on".  When tripped, the switch is opened.  The logic on the Tormach ETS is the opposite, in the non-tripped state the switch is open or "the light switch is off".  Tripping the ETS completes the circuit or turns the light on.  Kind of a pain to have to flip-flop between these settings.  That's where the Millfast Product auto-switch box would be nice.  Both the probe and ETS can be plugged in and the box senses when either is switched the box tells the PathPilot control that a switching event has occurred.

Here's the screen for the X/Y/Z probe.  It's pretty quick to find an outside or inside corner (LH side of screen).  One button changes the corner, other starts the controller to find the corner and set X/Y to zero.

The middle section is for finding an edge.  The left side buttons (probe set work origin) finds the edge and zero's that axis.  The right side button just touch the edge and don't change the axis zero.

The RH side is for Z.  Same gig here, hit the LH button to find Z and set the Z to zero.  The RH side finds the Z coordinate at the work under the probe.




Here's the screen under Probe/ETS for finding the center of a pocket or boss.  They work pretty slick.  Set the probe Z to just into the pocket or next to a boss and hit the appropriate button.  




Good luck and happy probing, with your mill that is.

Bruce


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## GunsOfNavarone

@BGHansen That's funny about Ft. Lupton, that sounds like where I purchased my PM-727m. They have a lot of huge industrial machines there for sale correct?
Anyway, being that I will use the probe as a ETS and probe, I won't have this issue beow and need to understand where/how to make this setting change?
"_The cumbersome thing in my current set up is the probe and ETS logic are reversed, one is Normally Open, other is Normally Closed. I have to go to the setting tab to change between the two before probing or using the ETS. Frankly, for a onesie tool measurement, I've found it quicker to manually measure the tool length on the Tormach surface plate and height gauge._  "
Thanks again for the 411 on IronHorse, I think this will be a big help getting parts set up accurately. I'm currently ONLY cutting wood as it more forgiving, not to mention cheaper.


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## BGHansen

Glad to be of some service but I'm still a newbie on most of the nuances of the machine.  I've cut a fair amount of wood too (and plastic).  One lesson I learned a bit ago is the importance of thoroughly vacuuming out the machine after cutting wood and plastic.  The 1100 series 3 has a screen filter about 4" x 12" on the LH side of the chip pan.  Coolant strains through that into the coolant tank.  Mine hits a tray that directs the coolant outside the machine to an aluminum tray that sets on top of a 24-gallon Rubbermaid tub.  The aluminum tray has filter paper on it for the fine stuff.  My pump is a 1/2 hp sump pump.

Anyway, was running a job cutting steel using flood coolant and saw some coolant on the floor.  Quite a bit actually, at least a gallon.  Then heard the sump pump starting to cavitate.  My screen filter was totally plugged and the chip pan was full of coolant.  I've got a Millfast remote E-stop with a 4-button control to pause a routine and turn off the coolant, so not a big job to put everything on hold.  The screen was full of sawdust and plastic shavings.  I do a better job of washing the chip pan down with coolant and cleaning out the screen filter before running a job as a result.

Far for me to volunteer anyone's time, but the seller of my mill is the owner of www.yourlittlecncshop.com.  Owners name is Chris Calvin, contact info at the website.  He is super knowledgeable regarding the Tormach mills.  He used to be a beta tester for new revisions of PathPilot and is a whiz at Fusion 360.  He lives South of Fort Lupton, might be a resource for you, though who am I to offer up his time!

Bruce


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## GunsOfNavarone

@BGHansen 
I went to wild horse-innovations to check my order, they showed pending payment which I did the same day as order. Sent them an email with confirmation #. No reply. Called their phone number listed with PayPal & their website, the guy that answered never heard of them. Totally sketchy, I wouldn’t purchase there at this point. PayPal is investigating...
Guess I need to find a new probe.


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## BGHansen

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @BGHansen
> I went to wild horse-innovations to check my order, they showed pending payment which I did the same day as order. Sent them an email with confirmation #. No reply. Called their phone number listed with PayPal & their website, the guy that answered never heard of them. Totally sketchy, I wouldn’t purchase there at this point. PayPal is investigating...
> Guess I need to find a new probe.


Wow, sorry to hear that!  I bought mine from them last fall.  No issues at all; I bought mine through PayPal also.

Bruce


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