# Finally starting... let the adventure begin.



## ArmyDoc

They finally cleared the trees.  This is where my shop will go.


Now I have to get rid of some stumps and get it level.  Each of those little piles is a stimp I tried grinding.


I used a stump plane - basically a giant wood auger.   Drills a big 10 inch hole in the stump.


Unfortunately,  for the ones up slope, that didn't work. Even after taking them 12 to 15 inches below grade, as I move the dirt, I just uncovered the stump.  Got to dark for more pictures.  Maybe tomorrow.


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## Jubil

I know you are not anxious at all. May everything go as you plan or better.
 Looking for more pics as you progress. 
Chuck


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## NCjeeper

I hope you get yours up faster than mine.


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## Dhal22

Elevate slab above dirt level.   Design with / rain runoff considered.   So many projects are built with no thought put into rain runoff.


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## Nutfarmer

The only way to remove a stump is to dig it out. Forget grinding . You just have chips that will rot  and leave a hole latter. Find a backhoe and go after all the roots too.


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## mickri

When I need to remove a tree including the stump I don't cut the tree down and then try to dig out the stump.  I figure out which way the tree will fall.  Then I dig a hole  on that side of the tree and cut out any roots.  Then dig a shallow trench along each side of the tree again cutting any roots and finally dig a hole on the back side.   The tree will fall over ripping the stump out with it.  Wet ground also helps.  This works best if it doesn't matter which way the tree falls.  If the tree has to fall in a certain direction then you have to help it along by cutting off branches on the backside and have a tensioning rope pulling the tree in the direction you want it to fall.

If I have to remove a stump I only dig as a last resort.  Stumps get narrower as they go into the ground.  I use my chainsaw to cut vertical slices off the stump.  First on one side and then the opposite side.  Then the two remaining sides.  

The slickest method is how they remove orchards here in the central valley.  They use a rather large bulldozer with a huge fork on the front.  The bulldozer forces the forks into the ground at an angle under the tree and then raises the forks popping the tree out of the ground, stump and all.

Another way is to use a trencher like a ditch witch.  It will cut the roots as it digs the trench.  I sold a palm tree in my front yard at my old house to a landscape company that specialized in palm trees.  They used a crane to hold the palm tree up while they trenched around the tree.  Then the crane pulled the tree up and set it on a flat bed to haul it away.

Lots of ways to do this.  Do whatever works for you.


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## FOMOGO

Depends what kind of trees you have, If they don't have a huge root system, I just put the loader bucket up high and push them over, and the roots come along for the ride. 60 ' aspen come down pretty easy. When I worked with my dad as a kid he would put one ripper tooth in (small Oliver track machine) and cut the roots on big hardwoods, and then climb up the tree with the machine, and bring them down that way. Mike


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## ArmyDoc

Wish I had pushed them over, but the timber company was cutting and that was my mind set.  Did three with the Bobcat yesterday.  Will do a few each weekend till done.  Thought about renting an excavator, which would be a lot faster, but I already own the bobcat, so not really keen on spending more just to save time.  That may change...


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## ArmyDoc

Dhal22 said:


> Elevate slab above dirt level.   Design with / rain runoff considered.   So many projects are built with no thought put into rain runoff.


Definitely.  I plan to have the terrace above it drain away the water towards the ends, and after getting the new terrace level, building up at least 6 inches  of crusher run, compacting that then putting the slab on top.  Want to have the crusher run extend a few feet beyond the slab, so the inside surface should be a foot higher or so.


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## cathead

I used a D6 Cat to remove several hundred stumps.  A couple of jabs with the 4 way blade angled down along the
tree to dislodge the roots and a push straight on usually does the job and on to the next tree...


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## ArmyDoc

cathead said:


> I used a D6 Cat to remove several hundred stumps.  A couple of jabs with the 4 way blade angled down along the
> tree to dislodge the roots and a push straight on usually does the job and on to the next tree...


I would love to have a D6.... and a excavator.... all the big boy toys.  I have a Bobcat v519 telehandler.  It does pretty well for my needs, but isn't in the same category as the heavy iron.  Hmm.  Almost seems like a  bench top hobby mill vs Bridgeport theme from a parallel universe.


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## Nutfarmer

Beautiful site. Good luck with the new shop build


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## aliva

Since the stumps have hole, pour in 5 lbs. of ANFO light the fuse and run a 1/4 mile away. Stumps gone


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## ArmyDoc

aliva said:


> Since the stumps have hole, pour in 5 lbs. of ANFO light the fuse and run a 1/4 mile away. Stumps gone


Quarter mile?  house is <100 ft away.  Guess I'm going to have to pass.  Had to give up on using tannerite for the same reason.  Sigh.  Sometimes life just isn't fair.


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## ericc

That's way too much explosive.  My old buddies in New Mexico used a piece, like 1/2 of a stick of dynamite.  First drill a hole with an auger for the stick to slip into.  It goes at an angle under the center of the stump.  Stick a blasting cap in the end, cautiously push it into the hole, and fill with dirt.  If done correctly, it makes a thump, not a bang.  The stump will heave up several inches and a lot of the dirt will get shaken off the roots.  Then, it can be removed with a mattock, saw, and maybe axe.  Having the roots all standing alone really helps, and the chainsaw blades last a lot longer.  If the kids get hold of the dynamite, they do some dumb stuff, and it makes a lot of noise, but doesn't do any work.  In California, you cannot buy dynamite without some kind of license.  If you do this correctly, you can remove a stump 10 feet away from the house without doing any damage.


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## aliva

If you use 5 lbs. you have nothing to remove, everything is gone, just sawdust.
But as ArmyDoc says  he's too close to his house so ANFO is out.


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## ArmyDoc

ericc said:


> That's way too much explosive.  My old buddies in New Mexico used a piece, like 1/2 of a stick of dynamite.  First drill a hole with an auger for the stick to slip into.  It goes at an angle under the center of the stump.  Stick a blasting cap in the end, cautiously push it into the hole, and fill with dirt.  If done correctly, it makes a thump, not a bang.  The stump will heave up several inches and a lot of the dirt will get shaken off the roots.  Then, it can be removed with a mattock, saw, and maybe axe.  Having the roots all standing alone really helps, and the chainsaw blades last a lot longer.  If the kids get hold of the dynamite, they do some dumb stuff, and it makes a lot of noise, but doesn't do any work.  In California, you cannot buy dynamite without some kind of license.  If you do this correctly, you can remove a stump 10 feet away from the house without doing any damage.


That sounds like more fun, but I found a way that worked for me...  see below.


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## ArmyDoc

Well, the Bobcat with front bucket was way too slow.  So I rented this beast:


Makes very short work of the stumps.







In about 3 hours I had about 3/4 of the stumps removed.  Pretty amazing really.


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## ArmyDoc

Well, the Bobcat with front bucket was way too slow.  So I rented this beast:
View attachment 337532

Makes very short work of the stumps.

View attachment 337534


View attachment 337533


In about 3 hours I had about 3/4 of the stumps removed.  Pretty amazing really.


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## ArmyDoc

Posting with pictures didn't work too well from my phone.  Sorry for the double post.


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## ArmyDoc

Stumps are out.  Working on grading now.


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## Nutfarmer

ericc , his method is right on. In the 70'S ,when you could still obtain a permit, dad and I cleared the stumps for the cabin that exact way. the most we used was two sticks of 60 percent on a douglas fir stump that was three feet in diameter. It didn't throw any dirt . The stump jumped a foot or so ,then we just pulled them off with the jeep. Now days the excavator is probably the best chose. Please keep us up dated on the shop


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## ArmyDoc

Well that stinks.   Have settled on price and layout, and asked the contractor when he could start.  He says they have a 24 week lead time right now.  Not until APRIL!!!


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## pontiac428

And that's how shop builds become 18 month projects.  Look at the bright side- you won't be pouring concrete onto saturated, frozen ground.


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## ArmyDoc

Yep.  Had this silly notion that if they poured it in the next couple of weeks it would still be warm enough - still running 70's to 80 during the day even now.  But the fastes I could find was a guy who said 10 weeks... that would put it in mid January.  Oh well.  Pleanty of other projects to work on.


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## 7milesup

Got the walls up yet?


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## ArmyDoc

Not hardly.  Have the site cleared, but they won't start construction till April.  (Looks for thumb twiddling gif...)


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## 7milesup

Well bummer.  I was somewhat joshing you, but still hoping that you were going to answer with... "Oh yeah, forgot to update this thread."


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## ArmyDoc

Yeah, but there are lots of other projects on the Farm.  All in all, its probably best to be focussed on them anyhow.  I have a half mile of fence to get put up, several burn piles that need to be take care of, a duck pen that needs siding and a roof.... and that's just off the top of my head.  Tomorrow will be harvesting and cleaning a couple of Muscovy drakes for Thanksgiving dinner.  Never a pleasant task, but needs to be done, and I've been putting it off.

Mean while I read and try to decide what will go inside the shop when it's done...


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## NCjeeper

I feel your pain. I am over the year mark myself. Partly because of mother nature and partly because I hired the slowest crew ever.


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## pontiac428

I wrote my first check for my shop in November '18.  By November of '19, the building was up.  Then I had to do electrical, insulation, and interior finish, one weekend at a time.  I moved out of storage and into the shop in November 2020.  That's an exact 2 year build time.  A lot of wait, a lot of expense, but now I can go out back and do my thing in my own customized space.  Long wait, but worth it!


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## Janderso

pontiac428 said:


> I wrote my first check for my shop in November '18.  By November of '19, the building was up.  Then I had to do electrical, insulation, and interior finish, one weekend at a time.  I moved out of storage and into the shop in November 2020.  That's an exact 2 year build time.  A lot of wait, a lot of expense, but now I can go out back and do my thing in my own customized space.  Long wait, but worth it!


I don't see any pics to prove it sir.


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## pontiac428

Janderso said:


> I don't see any pics to prove it sir.



I started a thread, but my progress was so slow that I just didn't keep up with it!  If you want to see pics of my dirty equipment being moved around the shop or pics of electrical wiring, I've got that!


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## NC Rick

NCjeeper said:


> I feel your pain. I am over the year mark myself. Partly because of mother nature and partly because I hired the slowest crew ever.


Low isn't to bad if they bo good work.  I have a great distain for the construction trade.  There are a few who really care and are good but we wouldn't be the only ones to want them.  Too many just do bad work when they feel like it.  Sorry for the rant... I had a wonderful man contract on our new home 28 years ago.  My last discussions with him were about a metal shop building on some new property (thinking retirement move) but sadly he has passed a man, likely 10 years my junior and a friend who I made while we built this house.  I don't think people he hired liked him, when was tough and demanding.  I am a softy with way too much compassion and understanding for those people and am constantly ripped off.  As an individual doing "our" project, we just don't have the clout nor the necessary experience to run that show in most cases. Certainly in my case.


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## NC Rick

pontiac428 said:


> I started a thread, but my progress was so slow that I just didn't keep up with it!  If you want to see pics of my dirty equipment being moved around the shop or pics of electrical wiring, I've got that!
> View attachment 344795
> 
> View attachment 344796
> 
> View attachment 344797
> 
> View attachment 344798


Nice! See, I can tell that I like you from those photos!  
what brand is your 2" belt sander?


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## Janderso

pontiac428 said:


> I started a thread, but my progress was so slow that I just didn't keep up with it!  If you want to see pics of my dirty equipment being moved around the shop or pics of electrical wiring, I've got that!
> View attachment 344795
> 
> View attachment 344796
> 
> View attachment 344797
> 
> View attachment 344798


2X6 walls?
Do you have a mini-split in there? I guess all you would need is heat.
I love the Bremerton area. We have good friends in Port Orchard.


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## NCjeeper

I spy a Sammy there Pontiac. You a wheeler too?


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## pontiac428

NC Rick said:


> Nice! See, I can tell that I like you from those photos!
> what brand is your 2" belt sander?



That's an early-1980s Jet.  It's only the 3/4 horse version, but if I need to really hog down some metal I can lean it into my disc sander.



Janderso said:


> 2X6 walls?
> Do you have a mini-split in there? I guess all you would need is heat.
> I love the Bremerton area. We have good friends in Port Orchard.



I used 6" studs over 2x6 purlins for about 8" of fill with R-21.  I have a HVAC company next door that offered to install a used good mini-split for cheap, but I am not sure if I really need it.  This summer with the insulation in kept the shop cool enough for me.  I will be installing an electric heater before this winter is out.  The plug-in 1600w space heater takes too long to get the shop up to 60 degrees!

If you ever come up to visit, give me a call.  I can see Port Orchard from my house!



NCjeeper said:


> I spy a Sammy there Pontiac. You a wheeler too?



Oh yeah!  I bought that guy stock 15 years ago, built it up fabricating my own lift and suspension ideas.  No bolt-ons, no kits.  My wife drove it for the first time and blew the engine all over the highway after finding 3rd gear from the top of  4th (instead of 5th).  So there it sits, first project to be tackled as things get settled.



Sorry for the hijack.


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## NCjeeper

The PNW has some good wheeling areas from the videos I have seen.


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## NC Rick

Man, I made so many typos, I can’t read my own post.  I’m sorry guys!  My eyesight, fat fingers, poor spelling  and apple auto correct don’t get along.


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## ArmyDoc

Finally some movement on this project..


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## Janderso

Concrete I assume??
Exciting.


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## Papa Charlie

@ArmyDoc 

Nice, it has been a wait for you. I am looking forward to watching your progress.  I must admit, that between @NCjeeper and your shop build story, I will have to adjust my expectations when I retire. We will most likely be buying some land (2-5 acres). First build will be the house, although I am going with a Manufactured but they are also booked up given the housing shortage. Then the shop. May be able to have the foundations/slabs poured for both at the same time. Would make running the utilities and plumbing much easier.

One thing I will be doing is a stepped foundation for the shop. Helps to prevent water intrusion by placing the frame support structure above the grade but below the shop floor.

One more year until retirement, July 10th, 2022.


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## ArmyDoc

What a nice thing to come home to:




Construction is supposed to start next week...


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## NCjeeper

That about 8 thousand dollars lying there?


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## ArmyDoc

NCjeeper said:


> That about 8 thousand dollars lying there?


A little more than double that actually.  40x70, 6 inch slab, vapour barier undeneith and fiber reinforced.


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## Eddyde

Not a bad price either, that would be over $20K in my neck of the woods...


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## Papa Charlie

Looking good, a 40x70 foot shop will make for a great shop/equipment storage. Sounds like you are right at about $12.50 per yard on the slab. That isn't bad at all for what you got.
Are you going with a red steel frame building? Looking forward to your progress.


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## FOMOGO

If my math is right, you're off by about $930.00. Mike



Papa Charlie said:


> Sounds like you are right at about $12.50 per yard on the slab.


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## Papa Charlie

FOMOGO said:


> If my math is right, you're off by about $930.00. Mike



My $/Yard represent Cubic Yards not footprint *but my number was still off.*

$17,000 / (40x70x0.5) / 27(cuft/Yard)
$17,000 / 1400 (CuFt) / 27 (CuFt/Yard)
$17,000 / 51.85 CuYd
$327 per CuYd

$17,000 / (40x70)
$17,000 / 2800
$6.07 per SqFt


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## FOMOGO

Well crap, flunked another math test. Your Number $327 seems right. When I poured mine, concrete was running around $200 a yard. That was maybe six years ago. Mike


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## Papa Charlie

FOMOGO said:


> Well crap, flunked another math test. Your Number $327 seems right. When I poured mine, concrete was running around $200 a yard. That was maybe six years ago. Mike


I am just making an assumption that ArmyDoc's comment to cost included total cost (material, labor, etc). Basically from flat ground to complete pad.

I have been trying to estimate this cost for my future shop. Based on my research, seems as though the cost ranges from $5-$10 per square foot, assuming a 6" thick pad. For my estimate I picked a middle of the road $7.50 per square foot. I hope that I will be high in my estimate but only time will tell.


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## NCjeeper

FOMOGO said:


> When I poured mine, concrete was running around $200 a yard. That was maybe six years ago. Mike


It was $143 a yard for 4000 psi mix when I did my shop floor last year.


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## FOMOGO

Anything building related seems to be quite a bit higher up here in tourista heaven. It was great when I was getting paid for it when I was in business, but not so much now that I have to pay for it. I know when I was back in the mid-west a few years ago, I was amazed how much cheaper things were. Price of living in paradise I guess. Mike



NCjeeper said:


> It was $143 a yard for 4000 psi mix when I did my shop floor last year.


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## Papa Charlie

NCjeeper said:


> It was $143 a yard for 4000 psi mix when I did my shop floor last year.


Does the $143 include forms, rebar, vapor barrier, labor, etc? This is where the values by cubic yard may vary. Assuming that ArmyDocs cost was complete for the entire job, would drive the cost by cubic yard up by a factor of 2 at least.


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## NCjeeper

No the 143 was concrete cost per yard only. Materials and labor were additional costs.


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## ArmyDoc

So, it's hurry up and wait again.  Slab poured monday, and was told they would start construction first week of June.  Now they say they are still waiting on purlins, and it won't be till the first week of July. 

I don't have the exact cost in front of me (it was one price for 4 inches, but I asked them to upgrade to 6 inches), but I think it was about 18k and some change total for the concrete pour, including labor etc.  They did fiber reinforced, not rebar (except in  the footers had some rebar I think).

Plan is for red iron frame building, R 14(13?) walls and R30 ceiling insulation.  Did not have them do interior lining/walls.  I wish now that I had. With cost of lumbar and steel increases, if I had ordered interior steel cladding at the original prices I would have saved approximately one metric crap ton of money...


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## Papa Charlie

This seems to be the new norm these days. I am hoping that we will see some relief by mid next year when my project will start. Since mine will include the foundation for the house and the shop, I am hoping that I can work a good deal with them. Haven't decided on the shop framing configuration yet. I was leaning towards the Red Iron. Originally, like you and many other here, had planned on plywood interior up to 8 foot height. But unless things change dramatically by the time I have to place the order, I will be looking into the shop builder to provide the interior lining like you described. 

That is sure a real nice setting for your shop you have there. Are you planning on having windows? While I like the light and the ability to see outside, the windows give me security concerns.


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## ArmyDoc

No, there won't be windows.  In addition to security concerns, it is an added expense I don't need, and negatively effects insulation properties.  I thought about it for the wall where the office will be, but ultimately decided against it.


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## NCjeeper

^^^
Same reasons I didnt put in windows to my shop.


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## Papa Charlie

That makes a lot of sense. Between @NCjeeper  and @ArmyDoc shop projects I am getting a lot of ideas and have made some changes to my plans, for the better I believe.

Thanks very much to both of you for sharing your adventures.


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## ArmyDoc

Finally some progress!


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## NCjeeper

I know the feeling.


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## ArmyDoc

Sure was glad they put that door in.  Don't know how I would have been able to get in to look around if they hadn't...


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## Dhal22

ArmyDoc said:


> Sure was glad they put that door in.  Don't know how I would have been able to get in to look around if they hadn't...



And they can now lock up at night.......


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## Papa Charlie

We must all have the same sick or warped sense of humor, at least regarding that door. 

Looking good. I think I like the red steel framed buildings the best. The tubular steel framing, I don't know, it is probably just a perception but it doesn't seem as sturdy.

Congrats on the shop. Going to be great.


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## rabler

Papa Charlie said:


> We must all have the same sick or warped sense of humor, at least regarding that door.
> 
> Looking good. I think I like the red steel framed buildings the best. The tubular steel framing, I don't know, it is probably just a perception but it doesn't seem as sturdy.
> 
> Congrats on the shop. Going to be great.


The cat wants the door opened to go in, out, in, out ...

Hope it goes up quickly from here.


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## ArmyDoc

A little more done today.  Seems like VERY little more done, but what do I know.  I'm just a grumpy old man. (And impatient my wife says from the other room... an impatient grumpy old man.)


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## rabler

I still just have a gravel base.  You're well ahead of me!


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## extropic

@ArmyDoc 

Pretty exciting project there.
Do you have plans for interior rooms to be constructed or leave it wide open?


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## Dhal22

ArmyDoc said:


> Sure was glad they put that door in.  Don't know how I would have been able to get in to look around if they hadn't...



Now he has options in getting in his building.


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## ArmyDoc

Dhal22 said:


> Now he has options in getting in his building.


...thats so if I get lost in there, I have twice the chance of finding my way out.


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## ArmyDoc

Well you know what they say extropic, "The best laid plans o' mice an' man..."

I started this project last November with lots of plans.  Goal was a place to keep my Ag equipment on one end, a metal shop in the center, and on the far end a clean room for processing our lambs, an office and in the corner connecting to the shop an area for grinding and welding.   As I said this was in November.  Since then, I've learned my parents will need to move out this way, along with my sister.  Now we are talking about having them live with us, and building them a small house on the property.

Having already put the deposit down on the shop, I will go ahead and get it insulated and enclosed, but I'm going to hold off on power, AC and any interior work for now.  My sister and parents will probably complain (they already have!)  They don't want me to stop working on my things just because of what's going on with them.  But family comes first, and when things are uncertain, you're better off staying liquid and flexible.  With lumber prices still up 100% (even though down from the peak)  I want to make sure they can get their place built before I put all my available cash into the shop.  The shop and equipment will still come, just a bit more slowly than I expected.


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## rabler

ArmyDoc said:


> "The best laid plans o' mice an' man..."


Hope it all works out for the best.  Life does have a way of throwing us curve balls.


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## Papa Charlie

At least you will still have your shop. You can always add to the project at intervals as you start to see what the future holds. You may be able to negotiate with the builder to get some work done on the shop in conjunction with the new house.

Good luck.


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## ArmyDoc

Well, more done.  I don't know if I should be happy or concerned...  supposed to rain tonight / tomorrow.


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## extropic

LOL.  From the first photo I wondered why you might be concerned. Given the low angle shot, I thought they had the roof on.

Then I scrolled down.


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## Dhal22

That insulation better not get wet.


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## matthewsx

ArmyDoc said:


> Well you know what they say extropic, "The best laid plans o' mice an' man..."
> 
> I started this project last November with lots of plans.  Goal was a place to keep my Ag equipment on one end, a metal shop in the center, and on the far end a clean room for processing our lambs, an office and in the corner connecting to the shop an area for grinding and welding.   As I said this was in November.  Since then, I've learned my parents will need to move out this way, along with my sister.  Now we are talking about having them live with us, and building them a small house on the property.
> 
> Having already put the deposit down on the shop, I will go ahead and get it insulated and enclosed, but I'm going to hold off on power, AC and any interior work for now.  My sister and parents will probably complain (they already have!)  They don't want me to stop working on my things just because of what's going on with them.  But family comes first, and when things are uncertain, you're better off staying liquid and flexible.  With lumber prices still up 100% (even though down from the peak)  I want to make sure they can get their place built before I put all my available cash into the shop.  The shop and equipment will still come, just a bit more slowly than I expected.


Yes, family first.

But try to at least get power run to it so you can run a machine or two. Trust me, you’ll want a place to get away now and then....

John


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## Papa Charlie

Well I hope that nothing got damaged. See in the forcast a little light rain, but temps are up.


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## ArmyDoc

Dhal22 said:


> That insulation better not get wet.


Exactly.  Rain all day today.


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## ArmyDoc

Little more progress.  





I know it's going to be good, because a bird already moved in...


Built a nest over the door jamb. Lol.


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## extropic

Did you get the rain the other day?
I was wondering what the conversation was regarding wet insulation?

That bird wasted no time staking a claim, LOL.

The project is looking great.


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## Papa Charlie

Looking real nice. That insulation will be a huge benefit.


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## ArmyDoc

extropic said:


> Did you get the rain the other day?
> I was wondering what the conversation was regarding wet insulation?
> 
> That bird wasted no time staking a claim, LOL.
> 
> The project is looking great.


I was surprised.  The one area where the insulation was most exposed was completely dry when I checked last evening.  
Yeah, I felt bad removing it's nest, but hopefully they will finish the last wall, trim and gutters/downspouts today.


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## ArmyDoc

Construction done.  Door guy coming next week.


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## Brento

That went up fast!


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## ArmyDoc

Yes, only a week once they finally started.

Does any one know if the insulation seams are supposed to be taped?  They say no. There's a 3 inch overlapp of plastic at seems, but they aren't sealed in any way... just overlapped.


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## Papa Charlie

ArmyDoc said:


> Yes, only a week once they finally started.
> 
> Does any one know if the insulation seams are supposed to be taped?  They say no. There's a 3 inch overlapp of plastic at seems, but they aren't sealed in any way... just overlapped.



I have been told that they leave them open to prevent moisture from collecting between the roof and the water proof membrane. Just like the insulation in your home, you want some air flow.

That is a beautiful shop building. Maybe it is the picture, but the image of the front of the building, the bottom of the foundation seems to be exposed. Generally the contractor will sink the edges to prevent this exposure. Maybe it is left that way to allow for connection of the drive way.

Did you have them install the plumbing and electrical conduit before the cement was poured, or will it all come up from the outside. Even though you indicated you will be waiting, It would be good to get the conduit and piping in before you add the driveway and/or gravel around the building. That way you are ready when the time comes and you won't have to disturb the work already done.


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## Just for fun

Beautiful shop Army Doc!


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## ArmyDoc

Papa Charlie said:


> I have been told that they leave them open to prevent moisture from collecting between the roof and the water proof membrane. Just like the insulation in your home, you want some air flow.
> 
> That is a beautiful shop building. Maybe it is the picture, but the image of the front of the building, the bottom of the foundation seems to be exposed. Generally the contractor will sink the edges to prevent this exposure. Maybe it is left that way to allow for connection of the drive way.
> 
> Did you have them install the plumbing and electrical conduit before the cement was poured, or will it all come up from the outside. Even though you indicated you will be waiting, It would be good to get the conduit and piping in before you add the driveway and/or gravel around the building. That way you are ready when the time comes and you won't have to disturb the work already done.


Thanks.  I figure they know what they are doing, as they came highly recommended,  but you know what the first commandment for success is... "Thou shalt check and make darn sure..."

The grading was level, about a foot higher than the area "up hill" from the shop, and the 6 in slab sets on that.  Once complete, we'll do final grading and add crusher run about 3ft on the sides all around, and for the driveway.

No plans for plumbing.  Permits for plumbed buildings are on a whole different level, and we would have had to put in another septic system.  Just a bridge too far...
  So I'll have to run into the house, which is only ~70 ft away.

Electrical will come frome the pole about 40-50ft away.  Suspect they will run that to the eves and down the side rather than under ground.


----------



## FOMOGO

Should be a really nice work space for you. That's the big advantage to a metal building, and paying someone to do it. Quick build time, as they need to get it done, and down the road to the next paying job. As to your lack of plumbing, you may want to try what I did. Dug a short trench, filled it with screened stone, and ran 2" pvc to a urinal I stuck on an interior wall. Used the condensate water from the shop furnace for flushing. Worked out great over the winter. Don't really use it in the summer, just go outside. One of the great joys of living in the country. Of course this would be installed after your final inspection. Cheers, Mike


----------



## ArmyDoc

FOMOGO said:


> Should be a really nice work space for you. That's the big advantage to a metal building, and paying someone to do it. Quick build time, as they need to get it done, and down the road to the next paying job. As to your lack of plumbing, you may want to try what I did. Dug a short trench, filled it with screened stone, and ran 2" pvc to a urinal I stuck on an interior wall. Used the condensate water from the shop furnace for flushing. Worked out great over the winter. Don't really use it in the summer, just go outside. One of the great joys of living in the country. Of course this would be installed after your final inspection. Cheers, Mike


One nice thing about georgia, even in winter, it's really never too cold to pee outside.


----------



## NCjeeper

Man I wish I had hired the crew you did. They sure did rock and roll.


----------



## Dhal22

Papa Charlie said:


> I have been told that they leave them open to prevent moisture from collecting between the roof and the water proof membrane. Just like the insulation in your home, you want some air flow.
> 
> That is a beautiful shop building. Maybe it is the picture, but the image of the front of the building, the bottom of the foundation seems to be exposed. Generally the contractor will sink the edges to prevent this exposure. Maybe it is left that way to allow for connection of the drive way.
> 
> Did you have them install the plumbing and electrical conduit before the cement was poured, or will it all come up from the outside. Even though you indicated you will be waiting, It would be good to get the conduit and piping in before you add the driveway and/or gravel around the building. That way you are ready when the time comes and you won't have to disturb the work already done.




You mean a footer? I agree,  looks odd without a footer.


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## ArmyDoc

Dhal22 said:


> You mean a footer? I agree,  looks odd without a footer.



I think he was refering to the foundation being exposed.  The entire footer is not exposed - it goes down 2 feet or so, only the top ~6 inches is exposed.  When the final grading is done, it should come up about an inch or two under the edge of the metal.


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## Papa Charlie

This is the area that I was referring to. It could be an illusion from the image but seems as though the cement edge is not very deep.


----------



## ArmyDoc

Papa Charlie said:


> This is the area that I was referring to. It could be an illusion from the image but seems as though the cement edge is not very deep.
> 
> View attachment 370242


Good eye!  Kind of freaked out when I saw that, and ran out to look.

Turns out it's OK.
The frame for the 6 inch slab was set level with the dirt. At the perimeter, plans call for an additional 1 ft x 1ft footer ( actual was deeper and wider.  I didn't measure, but I would guess 18 to 24 inches).  The reason it looks like the edge is thinner that the edge of the footer didn't fit flush with the form for the slab, and the concrete oozed out forming a shelf.
You can see it better in this picture.



To the right you see the footer extending straight down from the slab.  To the left, there is a shelf sticking out where the edge of the footer trench wasn't as crisp of an edge, allowing the cement to form a shelf where the straight form and dirt edge didn't line up.

During the month or so that the slab just sat there before they started building, we a LOT of rain (~6inches).  Some of the loose dirt around the edges washed away a bit, which exposed the shelf.  In the worst areas, its about 6 inches of exposed footer.

Have a call in to the guys who leveled the site.  They are supposed to come today to give me an estimate for re-grading the site to remove the rutts left by the construction crews equipment, and bring in crusher run for the driveway.  So, my plan is to have them back fill the dirt around thr footer, as well as put a small trench and secondary french drain to divert the water from the downspouts, and finally to put a top dressing of ~2-3 inches of crusher run around the entire building, and as a driveway up to it.

The site does slope away from the building all the way round for about 6 inches or so before reaching the regular grade.  It was built up with clay sand for about 6 inches to a foot deep to get the site perfectly level.  The slab sits on top of that.  On the up hill side of the shop, about 5-6 ft away, there is a depression/path/gulley? for water to run off.  Its about 4-5 feet wide, and the bottom is about a foot or so below the bottom of the 6 inch slab.  In the bottom of that waterway is a 2ft wide x 2-3ft deep trench filled with rock, with a French drain in the bottom.  Hopefully that will be enough to control water coming down from the hill, especially once grass starts growing on it.  I think it will be.  Even with 6" of rain dumped the course of 3-4 weeks, we never had standing water within 3 ft of the building.  There was a puddle over the water way that was maybe an inch deep on 1 or 2 days, so I do need to improve the slope in that portion so it runns off faster.  Don't want it too steep or it will erode, but want it steep enough that it doesnt stand there either.


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## Papa Charlie

Sounds like you have a good plan to handle the run off. Always a big concern when you take that much roof surface area collecting rain and channeling to the down spouts. May want to consider routing those down spouts into underground lines that take the water out to a ditch or a reasonable distance from the building before you have them bring in the surface rock. 

On the "Crushed Rock", Make sure they use either 1.5 minus or 3/4" minus. The minus indicated that there are tailings that range down to a sand like grain. This locks the entire surface together and will create a concrete like surface. Without the "minus" the rock will just move around from the weight of vehicles and will allow the water flow to flush out the dirt from under the rock.

You probably already know this but thought I would mention this. Where I grew up in Tillamook Oregon on the coast, back in the 60's-70's we averaged about 110 inches a year in rain fall. Dealing with run off was a major concern. I worked in a rock crusher plant for several summers. Learned a lot about controlling run off and building a solid road base. Drove dump truck and had to fix roads when people could no longer get up their own drive ways. Got real good at spreading base backing up the driveways, building the road as I went.

Hope this helps.


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## ArmyDoc

Papa Charlie said:


> Sounds like you have a good plan to handle the run off. Always a big concern when you take that much roof surface area collecting rain and channeling to the down spouts. May want to consider routing those down spouts into underground lines that take the water out to a ditch or a reasonable distance from the building before you have them bring in the surface rock.



Yes - that's what I meant by a secondary french drain.  Not really a french drain, I guess, since it doesn't have holes.  Just a pipe under ground that directs the water from the downspouts well away from the building.



Papa Charlie said:


> On the "Crushed Rock", Make sure they use either 1.5 minus or 3/4" minus. The minus indicated that there are tailings that range down to a sand like grain. This locks the entire surface together and will create a concrete like surface. Without the "minus" the rock will just move around from the weight of vehicles and will allow the water flow to flush out the dirt from under the rock.



That sounds like what I mean by crusher run.  It includes everything up to about an inch in size.  I think it is the first thing screened off?    We used it for our driveway and it compacts nicely, must be the same stuff.



Papa Charlie said:


> You probably already know this but thought I would mention this. Where I grew up in Tillamook Oregon on the coast, back in the 60's-70's we averaged about 110 inches a year in rain fall. Dealing with run off was a major concern. I worked in a rock crusher plant for several summers. Learned a lot about controlling run off and building a solid road base. Drove dump truck and had to fix roads when people could no longer get up their own drive ways. Got real good at spreading base backing up the driveways, building the road as I went.
> 
> Hope this helps.



Thanks!  Wow that is alot of rain.  We get about 45 inches here.  Wouldn't want more (also wouldn't want less!)  What you describe for the roads sounds like what we do here for our driveway.   I've gotten to be good friends with the guy who delivers for me, and he will pour it out the back leaving an amazingly even layer about 2 inches thick.  Very little left for me to do with the tractor when he's done.


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## Dhal22

Make sure your drain pipes have cleaning access from both directions and at all turns.   Cheap now,  expensive later if debris slowly fills your pipes.


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## ArmyDoc

Dhal22 said:


> Make sure your drain pipes have cleaning access from both directions and at all turns.   Cheap now,  expensive later if debris slowly fills your pipes.


Oh!  Good idea!  Thanks.


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## ArmyDoc

Quick update.  Doors are in.  Next week supposed to start on final grading, but also supposed to rain so maybe not...


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## extropic

Very nice.
Concrete pour to weather tight and insulated building in a little less than six weeks.
No small feat.

I hope your other responsibilities allow timely progress in/on your shop.


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## Just for fun

Looks mighty fine, Congratulations!


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## ArmyDoc

Now that prices are "normalizing"  What would you put up for interior walls?  I'm leaning towards OSB or plywood because it would be more durable than sheet rock.  Any thoughts on this, thickness etc would be appreciated.


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## 7milesup

I used sanded 5/8" plywood on all of my interior walls.  I can hang a cabinet anywhere with that thickness.  1/2" would be the thinnest that I would go.  It was stained with a clear stain just to give it some depth and then two coats of lacquer.   I purchased mine for $16/sheet in 2019.


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## pontiac428

I bought a pallet of OSB when it was cheaper per piece than a 12' 2x6.  At today's price, I'd go with plywood.  Two reasons, the plywood is better for hanging stuff, as @7milesup says, the other is that plywood is way better for taking paint.  I'm kinda depressed by the chipwood interior of my cave, I'd really like to brighten it up with a coat of light-spreading white paint.  At the time I made my purchases, plywood was significantly more expensive.  Now, not so much.  Gypsum or hardiboard would be nice for the flame-retardancy, I tend to generate sparks out there.


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## Boswell

I have 3/4" plywood on the large part of my shop. 5/8" probably would have worked OK. Price difference between OSB was only a few dollars per sheet so easy to choose plywood.


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## ArmyDoc

pontiac428 said:


> I bought a pallet of OSB when it was cheaper per piece than a 12' 2x6.  At today's price, I'd go with plywood.  Two reasons, the plywood is better for hanging stuff, as @7milesup says, the other is that plywood is way better for taking paint.  I'm kinda depressed by the chipwood interior of my cave, I'd really like to brighten it up with a coat of light-spreading white paint.  At the time I made my purchases, plywood was significantly more expensive.  Now, not so much.  Gypsum or hardiboard would be nice for the flame-retardancy, I tend to generate sparks out there.


I was thinking about putting some of the aluminum siding in the grinding and welding areas, but it's kind of pricey.  How does hardy board hold up?  true hardy board is $45/ 4x8 sheet.  They also sell hardy backer board - is that what you meant?


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## 7milesup

Here is a picture of part of my shop.  I utilized corrugated steel for the bottom 40" or so, partly for looks and partly for fire prevention should I develop any sparks or similar.


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## ArmyDoc

I  dont get these prices.... there is only a $5 price spread between 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4 inch thick plywood right now.  Even severe weather is only $38.50  (It was over $75 a month ago if you could find it.)   OSB is similar for thicker, but the 7/16 4x8 is only $15/sheet.  5/8 sheet rock is only $13... but I worry about it's durablity.


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## pontiac428

ArmyDoc said:


> I was thinking about putting some of the aluminum siding in the grinding and welding areas, but it's kind of pricey.  How does hardy board hold up?  true hardy board is $45/ 4x8 sheet.  They also sell hardy backer board - is that what you meant?


The backer is what I had considered.  I may still do a little "wainscot" around my welding area with it.  The stuff is tough, but it wouldn't be good for hanging stuff from, either.  It sounds like prices have come down, with a smaller gap between OSB and ply, making plywood a better choice.


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## ArmyDoc

pontiac428 said:


> The backer is what I had considered.  I may still do a little "wainscot" around my welding area with it.  The stuff is tough, but it wouldn't be good for hanging stuff from, either.  It sounds like prices have come down, with a smaller gap between OSB and ply, making plywood a better choice.


With the 3/4 being only a few dollars more than 5/8, I may just go with 3/4 and no 2x4s under it - just screw it directly to the perlins.  For the welding area, it may be cheaper to put aluminu roofing wainscotting than the backer board, or put 1/2 sheet rock over 1/2 inch OSB, at a cost of about cost of 11+15= $26/ sheet.


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## pontiac428

Is insulation a consideration for you?  I did it for temperature regulation and for noise control.  It was a modest expense compared to the price of the building, and I knew it would be tough to do after the fact.  It really keeps the noise down, the neighbors don't hear much of what I do in there.  The challenge was that I needed to add enough 2x6 framing between the poles to hang 24" battens.  Pole barn construction does not leave much to anchor to.  So I did that, and sheeted with OSB, which is fine, but it does make it difficult to hang or mount things to.  My "studs" are on 24" horizontal centers, so not a lot of anchor points there.  When I hang things on the OSB, I use mollies or drywall anchors.  That's pretty good, but it's not like I can just drive a nail or screw and hang some weight on it.  I have to plan it out, use additional bracing and anchors.  I certainly won't be mounting a shelf for 20' steel stock up high on the wall like I would like to.  It's not a deal breaker, but it is something for you to consider as you plan.


----------



## ArmyDoc

pontiac428 said:


> Is insulation a consideration for you?  I did it for temperature regulation and for noise control.  It was a modest expense compared to the price of the building, and I knew it would be tough to do after the fact.  It really keeps the noise down, the neighbors don't hear much of what I do in there.  The challenge was that I needed to add enough 2x6 framing between the poles to hang 24" battens.  Pole barn construction does not leave much to anchor to.  So I did that, and sheeted with OSB, which is fine, but it does make it difficult to hang or mount things to.  My "studs" are on 24" horizontal centers, so not a lot of anchor points there.  When I hang things on the OSB, I use mollies or drywall anchors.  That's pretty good, but it's not like I can just drive a nail or screw and hang some weight on it.  I have to plan it out, use additional bracing and anchors.  I certainly won't be mounting a shelf for 20' steel stock up high on the wall like I would like to.  It's not a deal breaker, but it is something for you to consider as you plan.


I have R13 (14?) Under the outside metal Siding.  I can put more between the horizontal Perlins (they are 6 inches deep) but I wasn't planning on it.  Money is tight and progress will be incremental at this stage.


----------



## rmantoo

The inside walls of my reloading and machine areas are all 3/4” plywood, painted with white, glossy, fire retardant added, industrial paint. 

Easy to wash and clean, and a bit more protected from sparks/ignition than most paints.
The 3/4” ply lets me Hang just about anything I want to with no worries.


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## Eddyde

As a builder, I work a lot with OSB, I don't recommend it as a finished surface as it can generate nasty splinters, it also off gases quite bit when exposed. I'd say ⅝" ply minimum if you want to hang stuff, ¾" would be ideal. you can laminate ¼" Hardy Board over. the ply and have fire protection and hanging ability. The hardy board is durable and can be painted.


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## ArmyDoc

Eddyde said:


> As a builder, I work a lot with OSB, I don't recommend it as a finished surface as it can generate nasty splinters, it also off gases quite bit when exposed. I'd say ⅝" ply minimum if you want to hang stuff, ¾" would be ideal. you can laminate ¼" Hardy Board over. the ply and have fire protection and hanging ability. The hardy board is durable and can be painted.


How do you feel about 1/2 inch OSB with 1/4 hardy board over for grinding/welding area?  Only problem is it comes in 3x5ft... Which doesn't seem to work well with 4x8 sheets for half a wall height.  Other option might be sheet rock over 1/2... or just use the fire retardant paint over 3/4... decisions decisions.

Right now thinking 3/4 inch for most areas, unless 5/8 comes down significantly in price.  If 5/8 were $20-25 i would go with it, but with 5/8 ag $31 and 3/4 at 34.50 a sheet, it seems like a no brainer to go with 3/4


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## pontiac428

The new glues don't gas off formaldehyde or acetic acid anymore.  I can't detect any odor at all from them.  I'm guessing they moved to partially-polymerized isocyanates now.  The smooth side has a thicker seal coat to keep chips from lifting off and causing splinters.  I hope that it lasts.  Either way, there's hardly any sense in considering OSB with the current pricing compared to plywood.

It's just so dark.


----------



## Eddyde

ArmyDoc said:


> How do you feel about 1/2 inch OSB with 1/4 hardy board over for grinding/welding area?  Only problem is it comes in 3x5ft... Which doesn't seem to work well with 4x8 sheets for half a wall height.  Other option might be sheet rock over 1/2... or just use the fire retardant paint over 3/4... decisions decisions.
> 
> Right now thinking 3/4 inch for most areas, unless 5/8 comes down significantly in price.  If 5/8 were $20-25 i would go with it, but with 5/8 ag $31 and 3/4 at 34.50 a sheet, it seems like a no brainer to go with 3/4


The problem with half inch Ply/OSB is it has limited screw holding ability, though you could also glue the Hardy Board to the OSB with polyurethane construction adhesive. 
Yeah at that price point ¾" is the way to go.
24 gauge galvanized sheet steel would make a great wall surface for a welding area. I haven't checked the prices lately but it used to be pretty reasonable.


----------



## Eddyde

pontiac428 said:


> The new glues don't gas off formaldehyde or acetic acid anymore.  I can't detect any odor at all from them.  I'm guessing they moved to partially-polymerized isocyanates now.  The smooth side has a thicker seal coat to keep chips from lifting off and causing splinters.  I hope that it lasts.  Either way, there's hardly any sense in considering OSB with the current pricing compared to plywood.
> 
> It's just so dark.


Yeah its not as bad as it used to be but it still seems to smell on large installations, It may also depend on the brand.
The splinters are mainly at the edges particularly cut edges, sanding helps but it still gets ya sometimes...
You can successfully paint it with a coat of BIN primer and 2 top coats of a quality latex paint, use a ½" nap roller.


----------



## Weldingrod1

Hardiboard is amazingly fire resistant: I once set off thermite on a sheet. Didnt discolor the back!
I've used double layer hardiboard with insulation to keep diesel engine noise out of the offices. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## pontiac428

Eddyde said:


> You can successfully paint it with a coat of BIN primer and 2 top coats of a quality latex paint, use a ½" nap roller.


Thanks for the tip on the BIN primer.  I'll give it a shot.  A friend of mine used Kilz and ended up with a lot of particle peeling, and I don't want to repeat his mistake.


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## Eddyde

Yup, the alcohol based BIN doesn't swell the wood fibers like the water based Kilz will. You could also use Cover Stain or other oil based primer, but those take longer dry these days...


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## ArmyDoc

Eddyde said:


> ...24 gauge galvanized sheet steel would make a great wall surface for a welding area. I haven't checked the prices lately but it used to be pretty reasonable.


good luck finding 24 gauge now-days.  They have 29 gauge 3'x8' at lowes for $30 a sheet...  I think if I talk to the guys who built the barn they may be able to do better though.


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## Papa Charlie

If you put the plywood up first, I would clad it in sheetmetal, you don't need corrugated and you wouldn't have to worry about sparks fall down the channels and smoldering behind the metal unseen.

I haven't checked sheetmetal prices in a while, at least non commercial. But you may want to contact a steel supplier to see what they are selling their Galvanized 24ga sheets for. Aluminum might be a good option as well. The Galvanizing may add enough cost to make it a wash between the two. Plus the sheets generally come in 4 or 5 foot widths and lengths from 8-10 feet without special order. That would give you a nice smooth surface that is well protected in the hot work areas. You can also cut or have them cut special sizes to go behind a grinder or such where you would not need a complete sheet.


----------



## Papa Charlie

If you do contact a steel distributor, ask about blems and drops. This can save you a ton over there regular stock.


----------



## ArmyDoc

With mom and dad moving in until we can build their house, money and time have been tight.  But there was a half pallet of 2x4s left over after framing. So I got a little done.  Starting on wiring and AC too


----------



## Dabbler

Nice work on the shop.  Looking forward to the time when you are making metal chips again.


----------



## Papa Charlie

Taking shape, going to be a really great shop once it isn't a storage shed. Could be a blessing given the cost of materials. Maybe by the time you get more heavily into the build, some of the prices will be coming down some.


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## matthewsx

ArmyDoc said:


> With mom and dad moving in until we can build their house, money and time have been tight.  But there was a half pallet of 2x4s left over after framing. So I got a little done.  Starting on wiring and AC too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 414312
> View attachment 414313


Seems like a lot of life has happened since you started this thread.

Caring for elderly parents is definitely a challenge but one I'm sure you're up to. I was lucky to have inherited (partially) a home that was built for accessibility with wide doors and barrier free in a good climate. My shop here is packed full in a 1 car garage but I can still have fun with it.

Looks like you're doing about the same, best of luck and keep us up on the progress as you go.

John


----------



## rabler

Life has a way of happening at it's own pace.  Good to see you're getting some time to spend on your hobbies.  Building a new shop is huge endeavor, hopefully it progresses smoothly for you.  Getting the AC working is the right start in Georgia


----------



## ArmyDoc

rabler said:


> Life has a way of happening at it's own pace.  Good to see you're getting some time to spend on your hobbies.  Building a new shop is huge endeavor, hopefully it progresses smoothly for you.  Getting the AC working is the right start in Georgia


AC is definitely a priority... It's been 90s almost every day with humidity making it feel like 100+.  My wife authorized buying Mr Cool Minisplits in an effort to keep mom and dads stuff (which is being stored in the shop) from getting messed up by the heat.  Thankfully, I insulated the shop back when we started, so it isn't too bad in there.


----------



## Papa Charlie

That will be a huge benefit when it is a shop again. When I lived in Antioch CA the summers were brutal. I could work in the shop/garage up to about 11AM and after 8 or 9 PM. In between was just too hot even with a fan going.


----------



## rabler

Have you had time to make any progress on your shop?


----------



## ArmyDoc

I have actually, at least a little.  We had some 2x4 studs left over from farming mom & dad's house, so I framed up the office area  (just realized the pics I posted were the same as the ones I did earlier, so will delete and put up new ones soon.)

I put in a MrCool 36k btu minisplit in the corner of the main area, and a second 18k btu minisplit with two 9k heads, one to th office and one to the welding grinding area.  These seem to do a good job keeping it at ~ 80 degrees (I could keep it cooler easily, but why spend the $$$$ when I'm not even out there)  Mr Cool minisplits are an easy self-install if anyone is interested.  I got an electrician to help with the breaker wiring of the first one, but didn't bother with the second one - very easy to do.

I also have hung the rafters over the office, and I've run some 20 amp outlet circuits.  

Once the stuff I'm storing for Mom and Dad is out, I can put in the lights.  I'm planning on UFO style Hi-bay LED lights.  Getting conflicting info on how many and power.  The ceiling is ~ 14 ft at the edges and ~ 18ft at the center.  Leaning toward 100W 14,000 lumen units or 150w 20,000 lumen units.  Any thoughts on this?

With any luck, mom and dad will be able to move into their new house by the end of October.  (And get their stuff out of my shop!)


----------



## rabler

I’m running about 45 lumens per sq ft, using 8’ LED tubes.  Seems about right for general shop lighting. A few key benches a bit more lighting is good


----------



## ArmyDoc

There's a "lighting calculator" on one of the sites.  For 50 Fc, it looks like with 100w bulbs I need 10-12, and with 150w I need 6-8.  Since they are very close to the same price, will probably go with the 150W.

I don't like the real blue light like they have in sams club - too harsh.  I think those are 5000k, so leaning toward 4000k.  They have one 3500k, which might be better for me...


----------



## rabler

The tube LED's I bought have an internal selector switch for 3000-4000-5000k.  I found 4000k to be suit me best.  5000K really is harsh.


----------



## rabler

I'll add that one benefit of the tube lights, especially with three parallel rows,  is that they really diffuse the shadows.  I would think the smaller, brighter lights would tend to cause more shadowing issue, but probably a bit easier to install.


----------



## ArmyDoc

Thats good to know.  The main problem with the linear array lights is that they are about 10-20% more expensive, for hi-bays, and if you go to strip lighting, it is even more expensive because you need more of them for the same illumination.  I think I'm going to have to do this in steps.  Put in a a couple of hi-bay ufo style lights in the center of each bay, then re-eval, and either add task lighting or more high bays as needed.


----------



## pontiac428

I used the 150w high bay lights installed at 12 feet.  The 5000k is a lovely daylight color.  Hotter (6000k) temps get harsh and blue, kinda clinical and nightmarish.  Lower temps (4500k) are nice and warm, more what you would want inside the house.

I'm lighting 24x40' with 12 lights.  Great for the main bay, but I just got three more for the machine shop corner.   It is just a bit too shadowy for the visual intensity of machining and inspecting.  So I'm fixing that.  Really happy with the lights, though, after 2 years I still love it when I power on the shop lights.


----------



## ArmyDoc

pontiac428 said:


> I used the 150w high bay lights installed at 12 feet.  The 5000k is a lovely daylight color.  Hotter (6000k) temps get harsh and blue, kinda clinical and nightmarish.  Lower temps (4500k) are nice and warm, more what you would want inside the house.
> 
> I'm lighting 24x40' with 12 lights.  Great for the main bay, but I just got three more for the machine shop corner.   It is just a bit too shadowy for the visual intensity of machining and inspecting.  So I'm fixing that.  Really happy with the lights, though, after 2 years I still love it when I power on the shop lights.


Your 150w high bays are about 20-22,000 lumens?  What is the beam angle?  That's a lot more lights than I was expecting.  There's a lighting calculator on 1000bulbs that suggests just eight 150w / 22,000 lumen lights for my 70x40 shop.






						21,900 Lumens, 150W, 4000K, UFO LED High Bay Light Fixture, 400W MH Equal, 0-10V Dimmable, 120-277V, PLT Solutions PLT-11897 | 1000Bulbs.com
					

Install this LED high bay fixture in high ceilings for illuminating warehouses and other large spaces. Visit 1000Bulbs.com for high-quality LED lighting today!




					www.1000bulbs.com


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## Dabbler

I have a 'normal' 2 car garagte.  I have a ring of 4' single line LED "tubes"  4000 lumens each.  4 to a side, about 5' from the outside perimeter.  In the centre, I have 4 - 4' X 2' LED panels for general lightiong, and an extra LED 4' "tube" over each machine tool.  22 4' "tubes, and 4  panels.


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## pontiac428

ArmyDoc said:


> Your 150w high bays are about 20-22,000 lumens?  What is the beam angle?  That's a lot more lights than I was expecting.  There's a lighting calculator on 1000bulbs that suggests just eight 150w / 22,000 lumen lights for my 70x40 shop.
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> 21,900 Lumens, 150W, 4000K, UFO LED High Bay Light Fixture, 400W MH Equal, 0-10V Dimmable, 120-277V, PLT Solutions PLT-11897 | 1000Bulbs.com
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> Install this LED high bay fixture in high ceilings for illuminating warehouses and other large spaces. Visit 1000Bulbs.com for high-quality LED lighting today!
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> www.1000bulbs.com


About right:








I work up lighting recommendations in industrial space as one of my areas at work.  I use the IESNA lighting guide.  I am currently getting 26 foot-candles, which is good for a machine shop floor.  I am trying to get a little closer to 50 foot-candles in my 12x15 machine shop in the corner of my building.  Turns out 30-50 FC is better for machine part inspection and fine visual tasks, so I just took receipt of 3 more lamps, two for the machine shop and one for a spare/to be determined.

I would go no less than 25 FC for a general automotive bay.  You can use task lighting at your machines and workbenches to supplement the overhead.  I'm almost happy with 26 FC, but want a little more light for the work I do.  The coverage of these lights is very good at 10 feet spacing.  The power meter sings at a high whine as the dials go round.  It's worth it.


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## ArmyDoc

Most recent pics.


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