# PhaseII Vise - this can't be normal, right?



## tcweb (Sep 19, 2018)

I picked up this 5" mill vise - very solid.  But I'm wondering if the jaws have been replaced or ground down, as the casting is NOT machined directly in front of the fixed jaw.  See the pictures below.   It makes it tricky if not impossible to use parallels.     What am I missing?  (or what did PhaseII miss?)   Can I machine and surface grind an extension for the jaw?  Should I just lay a parallel flat inside the jaws?  (may not be possible for very small parts)

Anyone else own one of these for comparison?

Thanks,

-Tom


----------



## BaronJ (Sep 19, 2018)

Hi Tom,

That would be normal for that vise !  If you really wanted, you could remove the fixed jaw and machine a slot across the bottom and then fit a block, secure it and face it down to match the bottom, then put the fixed jaw back in place.


----------



## Chipper5783 (Sep 19, 2018)

For some jobs you simply use thicker parallels.  That is not structural, consider filling the slot with epoxy (JB Weld) and file / stone flat.

I assume you got the vise pretty cheap, so you may have a bit of adjustment or fixing to make it work for you.  That is pretty normal with cheap stuff (most of us here on HM are probably doing that all the time - buy cheap because it is old, broken, pieces missing or a low end supplier - and fix it up for our application).


----------



## Janderso (Sep 19, 2018)

For a milling vise that is a bit odd, I would think.


----------



## BaronJ (Sep 19, 2018)

Hi Guys,

Not really !  Its not a precision vise.  As I said earlier, it is common practice to remove the screwed on fixed jaw and mill across the bottom, just enough to create a rectangular slot, and then put a filler piece in.  As Chipper said, JB weld could be used to fill that space just as well.


----------



## tcweb (Sep 19, 2018)

Good ideas.  Honestly, I thought it would be better than buying one of the Chinese "kurt clones" for $120. ( for which I've read nothing but bad things)  I knew that Phase2 did make some decent quality Chinese tooling, so I thought it would work well on my enco mill.  it's a damn heavy vise, and quality seems decent.  It just boggles the mind that they wouldn't machine the bottom of the vise all the way to the fixed jaw.

I will see what I can do to level it.   I'm always on the lookout for better tooling at a garage sale or auction, so maybe this one won't be my keeper.

-Tom


----------



## Norseman C.B. (Sep 19, 2018)

That is common on import drill vices, but not so much milling vices.
Maybe that is a version of a precision drill vice..??


----------



## tcweb (Sep 19, 2018)

It sure would make one hell of a drill press vise.  Just damn heavy to move up to the press table if I need to use it.  (I typically just end up using a palmgren as a workholder.)


----------



## T Bredehoft (Sep 19, 2018)

Easiest fix, make a new fixed jaw that's thick enough to cover the groove.


----------



## wlburton (Sep 19, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> Easiest fix, make a new fixed jaw that's thick enough to cover the groove.


I just did that as part of a (successful) project to turn a $12 Harbor Freight drill press vise into a real drill press vise:  flattened the bottom with a fly cutter to make it quit rocking (made more difficult by mystery metal chunks in the cast iron which had to be ground out), milled the bed for the movable jaw flat and parallel to the bottom, made a thicker fixed jaw to cover the gap (as mentioned above), adapted the handle to work with a speed handle I made for my mill vise, and milled out the slots for attaching it to the drill press table to accommodate 1/2" carriage bolts.


----------



## Janderso (Sep 19, 2018)

"Chunks of Mystery Metal", very nice.
Sounds dangerous for the tooling.
Or the operator.


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Sep 19, 2018)

tcweb said:


> I picked up this 5" mill vise - very solid.  But I'm wondering if the jaws have been replaced or ground down, as the casting is NOT machined directly in front of the fixed jaw.  See the pictures below.   It makes it tricky if not impossible to use parallels.     What am I missing?  (or what did PhaseII miss?)   Can I machine and surface grind an extension for the jaw?  Should I just lay a parallel flat inside the jaws?  (may not be possible for very small parts)
> 
> Anyone else own one of these for comparison?
> 
> ...


I have the same type of vice and want to fix that problem. Don't know why I didn't do it when I refurbished it.


----------



## tcweb (Sep 19, 2018)

I just spent an hour aligning the vise and taking some test cuts.  It looks as if the fixed jaw isn't ground all that well (off by .002 near one end).
It's definitely not going to work as is.  I like being able to put a parallel up against that fixed jaw.  
I think I may have to clean up a few other spots as well.  I may try again without the swivel base.  I'm told that they introduce a crap ton of error.

If I decide I need a new chinesium vise (no way I can affort a Kurt, it would cost more than my mill), any advice on something that is not to bad?
I'm always hoping to score a garage sale find on a Bridgeport or Kurt, but I may need something to get me up and running in the mean time.

-Tom


----------



## Bob Korves (Sep 19, 2018)

Put a spacer the width of the groove or a bit more behind the fixed jaw, may require longer jaw hold down bolts.  A piece of cold rolled, maybe 1/4" thick or a bit more and slightly less wide than the fixed jaw in width and height.



tcweb said:


> I knew that Phase2 did make some decent quality Chinese tooling


I knew that too until I bought some of their products and they were pretty typical Chinese stuff.  Lots of reviews out there that say the same.  They certainly do not live up to the reputation some buyers give them, don't pay more...


----------



## P. Waller (Sep 19, 2018)

It is time for hobbyists to rise against the people that run the machining industry.

I am mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, would be an excellent slogan. (do not know who actually wrote this line but Albert Finney made it well used)

I demand a $1500.00 mill vice for $159.95 shipped that is not made in China.
I demand a 12 X 30 lathe that is very accurate, has a good deal of power, a gearbox, a QCTP, a 3 jaw scroll chuck and a 4 jaw independent, a collet chuck and closer, weighs less then 1000 Lbs and runs on 110 V house current, variable speed spindle and a DRO for less then $10000.00, also not made in China.

If all buy hard enough the wish will be granted.
I do not see this market expanding anytime soon however.

Good Luck everyone


----------



## ericc (Sep 19, 2018)

I demand a vise that looks like the picture in the advertisement, not like one of the sorry looking examples that show up on calls for help posted in machinist forums.  If you search suppliers for pictures of this vise, they don't look like the above.  They have nice, smooth, flat rails that look fine for a parallel.  By the way, I have a vise that has this problem.  I'm not complaining, however, since it was thrown in with a drill press which came from Craigslist, and it was well worth the price with or without the stupid vise.  I would post a picture from one of the advertisers, but most of them are disabled from copying or watermarked, so anyone interested can search them up.  I suppose that you cannot complain if the item does not match the picture.  I bought and oxygen and acetylene regulator on Ebay, and only received the oxygen regulator.  When I complained to the seller, I was told, "you only get what is in the picture, not what is in the description." Plus, I got nailed with negative feedback.  All that is asked is to receive the item and not be intentionally deceived.


----------



## Doubleeboy (Sep 19, 2018)

I know from experience Phase 2 can sell some real garbage.  I have been very unhappy with a wedge tool post from them along with a rotary table.  Rotary table leaks like a sieve and wedge tool post is sloppy compared to a no name Chinese tool post of same design.  Phase 2 is also about worthless for service or info IMO.  I stay away now.  I have seen their tools at shows and in my opinion they take well checked out pieces to shows, their stuff definitely  looked good at the shows.  You can buy the same quality or better from CDCO or Shars, or bout any tool house, sometimes at way better prices.  Low dollar Chinese stuff is a crap shoot, you take your chances, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes its a struggle to get your money back and you are usually out shipping both directions.


----------



## T Bredehoft (Sep 19, 2018)

Uh ...  fellas, discussing problems is one thing, bashing vendors is something we don't want to do.  'Nuf Said?


----------



## Bob Korves (Sep 19, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> Uh ...  fellas, discussing problems is one thing, bashing vendors is something we don't want to do.  'Nuf Said?


I appreciate all reviews, good or bad or neutral.  This forum is an excellent place to find out the real world results that buyers get with a company's offerings, to help us all find better quality for our money, and to avoid poor results.  If a manufacturer or seller is doing a good job, I want to know about it.  Same with negative feedback.  Tell it like it is...


----------



## mikey (Sep 20, 2018)

Sorry you're having this experience, Tom. My suggestion is to return it and buy a Vertex screwless vise. The cost will be about the same but you will have far better accuracy and rigidity compared to a Chinese milling vise. I own three screwless vises and a Kurt milling vise. All are good but if I want the best accuracy and rigidity, I pull out the Wilton screwless vise.

One of many videos on such vises:


----------



## Downwindtracker2 (Sep 20, 2018)

tcweb said:


> I picked up this 5" mill vise - very solid.  But I'm wondering if the jaws have been replaced or ground down, as the casting is NOT machined directly in front of the fixed jaw.  See the pictures below.   It makes it tricky if not impossible to use parallels.     What am I missing?  (or what did PhaseII miss?)   Can I machine and surface grind an extension for the jaw?  Should I just lay a parallel flat inside the jaws?  (may not be possible for very small parts)
> 
> Anyone else own one of these for comparison?
> 
> ...


----------



## Downwindtracker2 (Sep 20, 2018)

My Japanese made Eron has that too.  I asked about the accuracy of a shaper, my Chinese "kurt" style 4" was made  on a shaper. It was +/- .005" I guess that was the answer.


----------



## tcweb (Sep 20, 2018)

I appreciate the feedback.  I will look for a screwless vise, as I treasurehunt.  But I know I want a Kurt-style vise for day to day use.
This has (by far) been the most responsive forum I've joined!  Keep up the good work.     

If anyone has had a good experience with a "fake Kurt" style vise, I'd be interested in hearing about it.  No way I'm coughing up $700 at this point.   

And I will also see what can be done to extend the fixed jaw on the phaseII.  I like fixing things, so this would be a good project.  I hang out at a machine shop, so I'll see what I can't mill up.     Question:  If I put a spacer behind the fixed jaw, will I have to surface grind it to be within .0005 of parallel?  (I assume at least that close)

-Tom


----------



## Bob Korves (Sep 20, 2018)

tcweb said:


> will I have to surface grind it to be within .0005 of parallel?


Not sure if that vise would know the difference.  I would indicate the fixed jaw and then the vise jaw mounting surface and see what exists currently before grinding a spacer plate to high tolerance parallelism.  The vise casting can be milled in place on the mill to help correct any factory goofs in the vise geometry.  A piece of flat ground O-1 tool steel, like Starrett and others sell, would be accurate enough as is.


----------



## Asm109 (Sep 20, 2018)

I bought a 6" Kurt clone from MSC.  The surface that parallels sit on has a taper of 0.003 inches from left to right.
Every plate I machined ended up wedge shaped.  Finally put an indicator on the vise and found out it is crap.

Having used Kurt vises many times at various employers, I can say there is no comparison between a real Kurt and the clones.


----------



## mickri (Sep 20, 2018)

When I first trammed my Shars 4" mill vise I discovered that jaws were spot on until about 1/4" from each end where the jaws went out by .002.  Since the jaws got wider it has not cause me any problems.  I have been happy with my Shars vise.


----------



## Buffalo21 (Sep 20, 2018)

Over the years, I picked up 4 or 5 of the “screwless’ vises, since then I sold off  2-3 of them, because, I find them a PITA to use. I’ve owned a Vertex and so others and they all seem the same. Everything I put in the vise, seems to be s I’ve where, its in between the notches for the clamp mechanism. I used it for a while, with a piece of coat hanger, to hold the clamp mechanism in the proper position, a lot of fiddling around. It became easier to get a regular screw type vise.

As to the OP’s original observation, all of my drill press vises are made the same way, with a groove at the bottom fixed jaw, That make thin parallels unusable, so I always used 1/2” thick parallels.


----------



## bhigdog (Sep 20, 2018)

Remove the fixed jaw. Mill the casting between the fixed jaw and ways flat. When you need a thin parallel use that spot. Likely won't be parallel to the table but most likely nothing else on that vise will be square, flat or true anyway. Good enough for farm equipment parts. Parts for NASA?..........Not so much............................Bob


----------



## mikey (Sep 20, 2018)

tcweb said:


> If anyone has had a good experience with a "fake Kurt" style vise, I'd be interested in hearing about it.  No way I'm coughing up $700 at this point.



Tom, what about a 5" Glacern? They have a very good reputation and they are ready to go, out of the box. No surface grinding to get stuff square and flat, no casting defects, etc. Have a look - $369.00 with free shipping:

https://www.glacern.com/gsv_550


----------



## Boswell (Sep 20, 2018)

Maybe I am doing it wrong, but when I mount my vice to the table, I sweep the fixed jaw with an indicator so that it is square to the table travel. I could care less if the fixed jaw is square to the casting. So why not just replace the fixed jaw with something thicker to get past the notch in the casting then use your mill to face the front edge so you know it is smooth and flat?


----------



## tcweb (Sep 23, 2018)

I took some advice above, and milled the vise casting down, so I can at least use a parallel for smaller parts. (pics attached)
If I look at pressing in some steel and milling it down to be level with the ways, any suggestions on material and/or how to attach?  Press fit? Drill and tap?   I can take it to my friends shop and surface grind it to try to get it close to even with the ways.  Waste of time?





-Tom


----------



## tcweb (Sep 23, 2018)

mikey said:


> Tom, what about a 5" Glacern? They have a very good reputation and they are ready to go, out of the box. No surface grinding to get stuff square and flat, no casting defects, etc. Have a look - $369.00 with free shipping:
> 
> https://www.glacern.com/gsv_550




I'll check out the Glacern.  I'd almost rather find a beat up Bridgeport or Kurt 6", but those are getting harder to find these days.  

-Tom


----------



## Cadillac (Sep 23, 2018)

tcweb said:


> I'll check out the Glacern.  I'd almost rather find a beat up Bridgeport or Kurt 6", but those are getting harder to find these days.
> 
> -Tom


Chicago CL has probably ten of them under those prices.


----------



## COMachinist (Sep 24, 2018)

Hi Tom
Plus 1 for the Glacern 550, I have one and bought it during one of the frequent sales. So got mine for even less which is a smoking deal any ways. If that is still to steep for your buget, you can try one of or dealers and supporters Matt, at Precion Mathews, I bought one of his mill vises for my drill press which is the Jet 20”, I use it as a second vice on my mill when I want to do multiple operations with out changing setups. It isn’t a Kurt or a Glacern, but is usable and is in you price range I think. The problem with that vise you have is rigidity when camping it flexes in the base and the jaws, which is less than ideal for presion work even on a small mill. By milling out the fixed jaw slot and installing a block it increase the fixed jaw distortion, making things worse.
Good luck
CH


----------



## BaronJ (Sep 24, 2018)

Hi Tom,

Nice job milling out that slot !  Now the ideal material to fill it would be cast iron, and a useful source would be a welding shop for a piece of cast iron filler.  Failing that a piece of mild steel bar.  It wants to be a good fit without being too tight, then use loctite or super glue to secure it in place.
Once that is done grind or mill the top to match the surface.

If you can, ditch the swivel base, that is what I would do anyway.  Make sure that the underside is clean and flat, remove any burrs, make sure that it doesn't rock.  Then you can square up the fixed jaw.  There are some other things that you could do as well to improve it even further.  But at this point your vise will be much better than it was.


----------



## tcweb (Sep 24, 2018)

BaronJ, thanks for the words of encouragement.  I can certainly get mild steel bar stock.  I have had many tell me to ditch the swivel base.  I really don't use it much anyway, so not a big loss.  

Would having my local machine shop buddies tac weld the filler strip to the vise be advisable?  (not full on weld - I realize cast iron is a PITA to weld)

Just want to be sure it's in there good and tight, so I don't create a projectile when I cut it down to be the same height as the ways....

-Tom


----------



## BaronJ (Sep 25, 2018)

Good Morning Tom,  its 09:15 am here,

I would not weld anything !  If you make the bar a good fit, no need to press it in,other than with your fingers.  The idea is to leave a microscopic gap for the loctite/super glue to bond in.  Once it has set, as long as you don't let it get hot, it won't come out.  Apply the loctite to both sides and the bottom of the groove.  When you have pressed the bar in, wipe any excess away with a cloth. The issue with welding is that you may introduce cracking down the sharp edges of the groove, and this is the last thing you want to happen.

Grinding should be relatively cool and should get you within fractions of a thou of the main surface.

Without measuring the squareness of the fixed jaw once you have replaced it, you don't know if it needs work doing to it.  If the vise has a flat rear surface, you could stand it on end and measure how flat and square it is.  This would then become the reference surface for making sure that the rear jaw is true.  Again you must remove any burrs so that it stands without rocking.  Use a square to see how far off square the base and rear face are.


----------



## tcweb (Sep 25, 2018)

Currently the slot I milled is at maximum .100" (2.5mm).  I'm guessing it's less.  I'll try to measure it today. 
No worries about introducing stress into the steel when I mill it down to a profile that thin?  I've seen steel that thin curl up when milled.

-Tom

edit: I guess I should say "releasing stress that was introduced when the steel was rolled or formed"


----------



## BaronJ (Sep 25, 2018)

Hi Tom,

I didn't realise that the slot was so narrow !  I that case forget putting a piece in, just make a new fixed jaw 2.5 mm thicker with a lip to drop into the slot.   

Or do you mean it is 2.5 mm deep and a lot wider ?  In that case cut a strip from a bit of plate and hope it stays flat.  Though I've used gauge plate to get thin sections without any warping.  Yes I've had pieces of rolled bar curl like a banana the instant you release the vise.

Just shows how deceptive a picture can be.  That slot looks to have an almost square section.


----------



## tcweb (Sep 25, 2018)

So the width of the slot is about 5/16".  The depth is about .100.

I can mill a small piece of stock to the correct width, get a tight fit, and Loctite it in place.  I'm just concerned that when I mill it flush (and eventually grind it flat) that the thin steel may curl.   I'm no expert on stress relieving steel, so I thought I'd bring it up to see if anyone had a suggestion.


----------



## BaronJ (Sep 25, 2018)

Tom can you get a piece of square cast iron welding rod !  8 mm is a common size, or at least it is here.  You won't have to worry about it warping.


----------



## Winegrower (Sep 25, 2018)

To catch up a bit, folks are asking about Kurt clone vises.   I bought a 6" import with swivel from Enco (remember Enco?) a couple years ago for about $100 as I remember.   It's a heavy beast.   The vise has been exactly what you would want.    Trams basically perfectly, within the resolution of a 0.001" dial indicator in all axes.
Jaws are removable, with all the options that a Kurt has, as far as I know, never owning a Kurt.   The swivel base has not degraded accuracy, and occasionally really helps out.   I'm satisfied.


----------



## tcweb (Sep 25, 2018)

Winegrower, I'm wondering which Chinesium vise Enco resold.  Can you post some pictures?  There are several out there in the $100-$150 range that (of course) look like they are good solid vises.  But it may be a crapshoot as to how tight the tolerances are.


----------

