# Why are many used lathes without tooling?



## visenfile (Nov 26, 2014)

Since joining and diligently searching used lathes it seems about 3/4 do not have a complement of ?basic? tooling.  Where did that tooling go? Worn out?  Transferred to other equipment?   On Craigslist and ebay many lathes will have one chuck, no tailstock chuck, drawers of rusty bits, incomplete cross slide etc.  Is the tooling somewhat interchangable accross US and accross asian machines?  Does a seller sell a stripper so price can be low??  Many warnings in the forum that tooling can cost as much as the basic lathe.  So should a person figure a stripped US lathe needs that much value again for tooling, if it is even available? Thanks.


----------



## Karl_T (Nov 26, 2014)

Simple, the seller gets more money this way.

I've told my future widow to sell off all the small stuff out of my shop for cash income. Then try to sell the large equipment.

Karl


----------



## GA Gyro (Nov 26, 2014)

There are better deals out there... one has to look for them.

As noted... the seller gets more $$$ if they part it out.


----------



## nickmckinney (Nov 26, 2014)

Tooling is so expensive and gets such a low resale used usually the machine is replaced and the tooling stays. I have one machine that the tooling has already cost me double the machine's cost and it still drinks tooling money every month.


----------



## Andre (Nov 26, 2014)

Tooling is worth boatloads, and when they come with a lathe it makes the lathe look overpriced when it is not.

My new South Bend 13" lathe came with:

Collet setup (draw tube, collet nose and nose puller/thread protector) $100

Set of 2A collets from 1/8" to 11/16" by 1/16ths                              $100

Cushman 3 jaw chuck                                                                 $200

Aloris AXA toolpost with a set of 5 holders                                     $650 

Lantern TP W/holders (original)                                                     $50

Faceplate                                                                                  $50

South Bend (skinner) 4 jaw                                                        $250

Steady rest                                                                              $100

Jacobs drill chuck and 3 dead centers                                           $200

PB jar full of brazed carbide tooling                                            $200

Full change gear set (has QCGB, no idea why they are there unless it was converted later) ($400 if pieced out on ebay)

Assorted misc. tooling                                                             $50



So that easily makes up the $850 that the lathe sold for, not including the lathe itself! 


If the lathe was pieced out he could've gotten probably 3-4 grand from it all.


----------



## GA Gyro (Nov 26, 2014)

And something to consider:

There are folks that go around to estate sales and auctions... and buy packages...
Then part them out and sell them online...

They make a tidy living doing this.  

If it were me... I would only buy a machine from the guy (gal?) that actually used it in the shop, or the estate of the same person.


----------



## darkzero (Nov 26, 2014)

Depends on the type of seller. Those who don't know much about machining or just want something to be gone will include everything (tooling). Those who are more knowledgeable know that tooling is worth value & will sell it separately. 

Then there are those who are upgrading will tend to keep whatever tooling they can. Like me, when the time comes to upgrade, none of my tooling will go with the lathe or mill unless I can't use them. Even the QCTP, chucks, etc, I'll buy replacements for the sale if I have to.


----------



## ChipsAhoy (Nov 26, 2014)

Dark...that's too funny, I've done the same thing.  My first mill was a VM-1 and was a Morse Taper 1.  (yep, not a typo).
For some reason, greed I suppose, I still have the boring bar head.  Takes minimum of two adapters to use it on just about anything, don't use it anymore,  but I still got it!!  ondering:

Scotty


----------



## Bill C. (Nov 26, 2014)

visenfile said:


> Since joining and diligently searching used lathes it seems about 3/4 do not have a complement of ?basic? tooling.  Where did that tooling go? Worn out?  Transferred to other equipment?   On Craigslist and ebay many lathes will have one chuck, no tailstock chuck, drawers of rusty bits, incomplete cross slide etc.  Is the tooling somewhat interchangable accross US and accross asian machines?  Does a seller sell a stripper so price can be low??  Many warnings in the forum that tooling can cost as much as the basic lathe.  So should a person figure a stripped US lathe needs that much value again for tooling, if it is even available? Thanks.



Like most have noted sellers can get more money for tooling.  

Most of the lathes I have used must have been bought at auction(s). Some have several chucks and other tooling that fit that one lathe.  

Most new machines can be ordered to the buyer's specifications.  Specially if the buyer has a dedicated purpose for the lathe including tooling for production.


----------



## Reeltor (Nov 27, 2014)

I agree, the lack of tooling will fall into 2-groups.  The person who is upgrading his machine and has use of the old tooling and the reseller who is trying to make the most profit he can.  


When I bought my mill, I saw it on a craigs list ad with a asking price in the mid $4,000.  It wasn't in my budget so I didn't even call the "surplus machine dealer".  About a year later it pops back on at $2,700.  I go and look at the machine, it is a VanNorman 22l stuffed in the middle of all kinds of machines; no tooling.  I gave the guy my card and told him to call me when he is serious about selling.
In the mean time I drive by the place every couple of months just to see what else they have.  When looking around I found a tool cabinet with all of the Van Norman tooling, A and B arbor support, (when these go on ebay they sell for $400+) 4-(horizontal) arbors, a bunch of NMTB 50 end mill holders, 3 (empty) shell mill holders and 1-8", 1-3" and 1-2-1/2" mounted face mills.  Plus a bunch of miscellaneous stuff.  I offered $800 for the mill, cabinet and all tooling.  It was countered at $2,300 and I left.  Over the next many months I'd stop in to look around and pull out my $800 for the mill and tooling.  He finally said he would do $1,800 so I asked to see it running.  The mill was pulled out of the middle of a mess of equipment and a fellow wired it up (3-phase).  He started it, spindle went OK (better than expected ) but the feeds wouldn't work, they had a loud clacking noise.  He goes to talk to the boss, I go and talk to the boss, we settle on $900 and $100 delivery.  Wired it up to my RPC and the feeds work fine, looked in the manuals (yes, all manuals were in the cabinet) and it describes the feed noise, and states that the feed motor is running backwards and to recheck the connections.

When buying used machines, you have to buy when the deal comes along but that doesn't mean to accept the sellers offering.  If it is a home shop person look around for suitable tooling and be firm but not unreasonable.  If it's a reseller like in my case, the seller didn't have a clue that he bought the cabinet full of tooling that went with the mill, it was just part of a large lot that he got at an auction.  Look around, you never know what you will find.
Sometimes to get the deal, you can't be in a hurry and be willing to loose the purchase, to someone else who values the equipment more than you do.

Mike


----------



## visenfile (Nov 27, 2014)

Thanks for the responses.  I am still confused if tooling is routinely sold separately why do I never see sets advertised for particular makes models?  Is that knowledge (what fits what) something only experienced machinists know?  I do get the feeling that used lathes that run tend to cluster around $2K-$4K without tooling.  Perhaps that is the "retail" pricepoint of $19.99?  US machinery decades old and used asian pop up for $2500 a lot.  Many older  asian lathes  with tooling are advertised at about half the new model equivalent.  The over riding fear for the noob (me) seems greatest for real old US machines (wear, available-affordablel parts) , but also applies to total unavailability of older asian parts?Mysteries to be sorted out over time.


----------



## GA Gyro (Nov 27, 2014)

I suspect tooling is sold separate piece by piece... rather than a package for a machine.  
Again, best return on investment... especially if one bought an auction lot and is just trying to get the best bang for it.

If it were me... I would tell myself to be ready to shop for months and months... and not get excited about any one deal... until after I had seen it and determined it was a screaming deal.  

Better IMO to shop another day... than to pay too much.

Now the other alternative... is to get a Chinese or Taiwanese machine... and be done with it.  

Most of the Bridgeport clones are very similar... some creative research could probably yield a suitable part you needed.
On the lathes... I suspect there are a couple of classes one could get into... where there are lots of similar units on the market.


----------



## Cobra (Nov 27, 2014)

I think there are likely other like myself who upgraded equipment. I went from a 3 in 1 to separate machines.  As said, the tooling is expensive and most was transferable.  The party's that could not be transfered were sold with the machine.


----------



## brav65 (Nov 27, 2014)

I am a noob as well who bought a Chinese mill (PM25) and have spent about half the purchase price so far getting tooled up. I am in AZ and all the used equipment listed for sale is $$$. I got a call from a friend about a complete shop, large Bridgeport clone,lathe, tooling, full wood shop etc. that her customer got with a home they purchased. I am meeting them next week and hope to buy the whole lot, sell off what I don't need/want and get all the rest of my tooling and a lathe for free. Spread the word to your friends that you are in the market and see what pops up. I know another guy who did this and ended up with a BP clone CNC for free out of the deal. In fact he is up because he upgraded the controller box and sold the old one for major $$$.  I have also met a retired machinists who is selling me his good tooling for $.25 on the dollar because he want to help out a new guy. He has even come over to my house to help me learn how to use my new mill. My advice is to be patient and look at Craig's list every day. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sdmuleman (Nov 28, 2014)

Yep, can go both ways. Sometimes folks try to nickle and dime every bit, but sometimes folks will be selling a decent package. 

In my case, the SB 15" I'm selling has the basics (chucks, tool post, tailstock drill chuck) but not any bits or other parts I can use on my newer lathe that's replacing it. I've even gone back and forth on selling the 4 jaw chuck since I have half an idea to use it on a rotary table.... For me I want to have enough hardware with it to be reasonable useful, but at the same time I'm asking $750 for the machine.... whether it has the 4 jaw chuck or not probably woln't make much difference in what I get for it, but if I have to buy another chuck or sell that one separately it's $1-200.


----------



## stupoty (Nov 28, 2014)

I think for house clearence or similar sellers their can be an issue with telling gauge blocks from scrap steel and such.

To be fair theirs a lot of engenearing tooling that just looks like a random block of metal to the un initiated , if you asked people how much a pile of dirty oily little bits of metle were worth thats what a lot of people will see as aposed to a bucket with a lifetime supply of HSS tool blanks.

Stuart


----------



## Reeltor (Nov 28, 2014)

In my earlier post I tried, without too much success on how to negotiate for your equipment.  If the tooling is there, try to get it thrown into the deal, if no tooling is available, you really need to consider the price.  Don't be afraid to walk away; do it with a smile so that you can come back if necessary. 

It took me 6 or 7 months to find my lathe, only went to look at one other.  The mill took years, but I was willing to wait for the one that I wanted at MY price.
BTW if you come across a Wells-Index or Index mill, they are really good mills (I like them better than Bridgeports).  Still in business and if the quill has an old style taper they will regrind it to a more modern one for only a few hundred dollars.

Back to your question on accessories.  Lathes have a half dozen or so standard spindle mounting styles.  Your South Bend's and Asian clones will have readily available backplates/chucks.

If you are in the market for a chuck they can be purchased with or without the backplate that you need.
The tool posts are sized for the size of the lathe,  so don’t be too concerned if you need to purchase a QCTP (quick change tool post) other than spending the $$’s that is.

The mill is a little different, many mills have a R-8 spindle taper and your tooling will need to be R-8, most bridgeports and clones as will as HF mini mills take R-8 tooling.  Older and or bigger industrial machines may take nmtb 30, nmtb 40, nmtb 50 spindle tooling (nmtb=national machine tool builders).  You should avoid a mill if the spindle has a different taper than one of these, unless it is an Index and you want to have it re-bored.

I hope that this answered some of your questions, 

Mike


----------



## visenfile (Nov 29, 2014)

Once again folks, thanks.  By osmosis and constantly surfing I will finally have a clearer picture.  One thing is evident.  Some sellers can not mask when they rattle can their lathes  Today on ebay is displayed a lathe which looks good in the pic, but the gears have grey paint in the teeth.)


----------



## Shadowdog500 (Nov 29, 2014)

Maybe the seller keeps the tooling for thier new, bigger lathe.

If I ever get a bigger lathe you can bet your Bippy that I will keep all of my tooling.   



Chris


----------



## SE18 (Nov 29, 2014)

frustrating, right? Buy a $850 SB9A lathe then spend $1k on tooling when chinese lathes new sell for 1.6k with the tooling new (and with hardened beds and non-threaded spindle). I'm happy with my 9A but knowing now what I know I might have not done what I did.

The sellers really make a killing on parting stuff out.


----------



## Dranreb (Nov 29, 2014)

Some sellers have no idea that the tooling is valuable at all, my lathe ended up on Ebay just because it was too heavy to get in a skip with the rest of the contents of their late fathers sheds!

Bernard


----------



## CluelessNewB (Nov 29, 2014)

I have also been to estate auctions where the auctioneers don't have a clue what they are selling and just throw stuff in boxes.  Sometimes I have been lucky and purchased some mixed boxes of stuff with some lathe tooling for little money.  Unfortunately someone else ended up with the lathe without some of the tooling.   I also believe some of these machines come out of schools that eliminated or reduced their shop classes and the easier to carry small items get pilfered before the major machines get auctioned or sold.  There are also the estate sales where families sell off what they can.  Small easy to carry high value items go first.  The stripped major machines get sold later.


----------

