# Aloris Keeps Sending Me Scuffed Tool Holders



## erikmannie (Dec 11, 2020)

I have bought about 17 lathe tool holders from Aloris. The last 2 (pictured below) were purchased new directly from Aloris.

Is this scuffing & flaking normal? I have only had this problem with the last two.




When I sent back the first one, they sent a replacement that was scuffed and flaked even worse. What would you guys do?


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## erikmannie (Dec 11, 2020)

This was the first one:




Am I being too picky to keep sending these back until I get one that is not scuffed? I would have saved money & bought a used one if that is what I wanted.


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## erikmannie (Dec 11, 2020)

I’m no QC expert, but if I were doing QC these are getting refinished or sold as factory   seconds.


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## Grinderman (Dec 11, 2020)

For what those cost they should be perfect. Aside from the crappy set screws I've had good luck with the imports.


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

The first time this happened, they asked me to make a damage claim with UPS. I did this, and it took about an hour of my time.

I asked them if it the tool holder was scuffed before they shipped it, and now I see that they are coming from the factory scuffed & flaked like this. I just want to get what I paid for: a new CXA #1 tool holder. These are $90.10 on the Aloris website.


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## Cooter Brown (Dec 12, 2020)

Come on its really not that bad.... After the first year of use these tool holders will be beat half to death.....


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

Cooter Brown said:


> Come on its really not that bad.... After the first year of use these tool holders will be beat half to death.....



I take care of my tools. I put a tool in these, center the tool, and the tool lives in there for the life of the tool. I put my tool holders on (dovetail) racks so they don’t get scuffed.

If I was keeping them in a drawer (which I do with my Chinese AXA tool holders), I wouldn’t care.


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## mmcmdl (Dec 12, 2020)

My used ones look twice that good and sell for half the price .


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## mikey (Dec 12, 2020)

I have a fair number of Aloris tool holders and all of them are well used; NONE of them look like that. The oxide coating is entirely intact on all of them. Something in their process is off, Erik, and I would complain.


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## Watchwatch (Dec 12, 2020)

I just recently bought an Aloris 4D with a similar issue. A few emails later and I was told it was “part of their process” but they would replace it if I wanted to ship it back. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tozguy (Dec 12, 2020)

An experience like that would irritate me to no end. I feel for you. Makes me glad I bought Phase II stuff cause it works fine and is way prettier.


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## KMoffett (Dec 12, 2020)

I always take a photo of the shipping box if the contents appear damaged. Our receiving dock people don't inspect every package. This has saved a lot of time putzing with finger pointing. I also take pictures of the inside packing if it looks like that was the real problem.


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## Suzuki4evr (Dec 12, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> This was the first one:
> 
> View attachment 346953
> 
> ...


When you buy new,you expect new IMHO.


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## Boswell (Dec 12, 2020)

wow, I probably would never have even noticed. I am mostly a Function over Form type of guy though and would only care if it worked the way it should.


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## markba633csi (Dec 12, 2020)

That's not scuffing or shipping damage, that's poor anodizing.  I would get your credit card company involved if the factory is stubborn
-Mark


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

Watchwatch said:


> I just recently bought an Aloris 4D with a similar issue. A few emails later and I was told it was “part of their process” but they would replace it if I wanted to ship it back.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Part of their process is to have a poor finish on the bottom, and then the customer has to take the time and money to ship it back, only to receive another one which may be worse?

Again, for $90 it shouldn’t look used & abused on the bottom.


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

Boswell said:


> wow, I probably would never have even noticed. I am mostly a Function over Form type of guy though and would only care if it worked the way it should.



I can see your point, but this exposed steel could spot rust over time.


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

KMoffett said:


> I always take a photo of the shipping box if the contents appear damaged. Our receiving dock people don't inspect every package. This has saved a lot of time putzing with finger pointing. I also take pictures of the inside packing if it looks like that was the real problem.



That is a very good practice! All of the shipping boxes were fine. These were like this before they shipped.


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> That's not scuffing or shipping damage, that's poor anodizing.  I would get your credit card company involved if the factory is stubborn
> -Mark



I paid with PayPal. I did notify PayPal after the replacement tool holder was a QC fail.


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## Buffalo21 (Dec 12, 2020)

There are lines on the bottom, like they sat on a wire rack during the anodizing process


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> There are lines on the bottom, like they sat on a wire rack during the anodizing process



All of my Aloris tool holders have these lines. I am complaining about the scuffing and flaking.

The lines are gold in color, and the scuffing and flaking is raw steel.

Here are more photos these new $90 tool holders:


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## vtcnc (Dec 12, 2020)

Racking/fixture marks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tozguy (Dec 12, 2020)

If Phase II can make em right then so can Aloris yes?


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## Buffalo21 (Dec 12, 2020)

I guess I’m of two minds, one, I paid good money for it and it should be perfect, but secondly, it’s a tool, as I once told a customer, who complained about a scratch in the paint on a boiler, “ it’s a f#*king boiler, not a f#*king Buick”, form and function is far more important that cosmetic concerns (it’s not like it dented or bent). I’m obviously more concern with the second phase.

But maybe I’m the wrong person to say anything, I’ve rebuilt equipment, new bearing, seals , etc, etc, but have never painted anything, paint on the machine base does not make it more accurate. My neighbor washes/waxes his car constantly, I’ve never washed a car in my life, to me they are just transportation, timely oil changes, proper maintenance and good tires are far more important that the sheen of the paint. To me function is far more important than cosmetic concerns.


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## pontiac428 (Dec 12, 2020)

Erik, next time you talk to Aloris ask them about their quality management system.  Ask if they are ISO 9000 accredited.  If they are, your customer complaint of a negative outcome from their processes should prompt them to conduct a root cause investigation in order to correct the defect.  They should take this very seriously as a manufacturer.  Even if their product is sourced overseas and they just handle the fulfillment, Aloris has a reputation to maintain.


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## f350ca (Dec 12, 2020)

I have to agree with Buffalo21, its a machine tool, the finish doesn't impact the performance. Yes they could do a beter job on the finish, which takes time and transfers as a cost to you the buyer. Returning it for another one adds to their operating cost, which translates as a cost to the buyer. Im sure the majority of their sales are to industry, where function not fashion maters, they build to a price point where if there isn't a profit at the end of the day they close up

Greg


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## Nogoingback (Dec 12, 2020)

At the price they get for their tools, they should be better than that even though the finish won't effect function.  So,
the question is are you getting your money's worth buying from Aloris?  I buy my toolholders from All Industrial at 
16 bucks a pop and their finishing looks great, and functionally I can't tell the difference between them and the (one)
Aloris toolholder that I own.


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## Winegrower (Dec 12, 2020)

I suggest returning them to Aloris, getting a refund even if you have to go to the CEO, and  for each one refunded, buy four more from All Industrial, and live happily ever after.


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## Liljoebrshooter (Dec 12, 2020)

Wow

Joe


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## vecair (Dec 12, 2020)

You should get a perfect holder regardless of what it will look like in a year.  Would you say that with a new work truck? I hate to be a complainer but I believe this is an example of our downfall.  I have several Chinese tool holders and they are finished perfectly.  I find these days that most, but not all, companies here just don't give a damn anymore.  I just got through talking to a large company trying to purchase their product in large quantities, and they basically told me they just don't care.  I purchased an China R8  collet holder and when it arrived four days later it was missing the wrench.  They sent me out an entire new holder and wrench and said keep the other holder as well.  This is how I operated when I was in business, the customer was always right, if they wanted something I did whatever it took to get it for them, even if I lost money.  That was the work ethic my father taught me.  We are losing the product battle for a good reason.


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## aliva (Dec 12, 2020)

Ask for a 50% credit and buy more holders


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 12, 2020)

You are right not to accept shoddy quality when you paid for quality tools. I would not accept this and would let them know. I would also let them know that you want replacements and some kind of compensation for the trouble.


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## markba633csi (Dec 12, 2020)

My feeling is the government wouldn't accept that so why should you. Of course, the government pays a lot more...  
-Mark


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## Dave Van (Dec 12, 2020)

My axa holders from Shars look and work perfect for about $15 or $20 ea. Aloris items are overpriced in my opinion.


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## MrWhoopee (Dec 12, 2020)

The black oxide on my $20 Chinese holders is perfect, and they hold a tool just as securely the high-priced spread. People who claim that "you get what you pay for" neglect the fact that sometimes you get less.


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

I will post the result in this thread. I will probably just keep pestering Aloris until they give me a tool holder that is not subject to corrosion out of the gate.


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## jmkasunich (Dec 12, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> Aloris has a reputation to maintain.



More like "Aloris has a reputation to milk all the way to the bank until it's gone."

Too many short-sighted MBAs are running companies that used to be run by toolmakers, engineers, or other people who took pride in their products.  Now it's all about the quarterly profit report.  Got a reputation for top quality?  That's an asset to be exploited.  Make cheap ****, sell it at inflated prices to people who still believe the reputation.  If the reputation is gone in 10 years, who cares.  Shut it down and go buy another company and do the same thing.


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## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2020)

I have 19 Aloris CXA tool holders and 2 toolposts. Everything about the products are good except this issue with the finish.

Here is all my Aloris stuff:


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 13, 2020)

jmkasunich said:


> More like "Aloris has a reputation to milk all the way to the bank until it's gone."
> 
> Too many short-sighted MBAs are running companies that used to be run by toolmakers, engineers, or other people who took pride in their products.  Now it's all about the quarterly profit report.  Got a reputation for top quality?  That's an asset to be exploited.  Make cheap ****, sell it at inflated prices to people who still believe the reputation.  If the reputation is gone in 10 years, who cares.  Shut it down and go buy another company and do the same thing.



That was AMF's business case back in the 70's  & 80's. Destroyed Brunswick, Harley Davidson to mention a few. Luckily, HD bought it back in its reduced state and built it back up.

I wonder if Aloris is having trouble with their supply chain. A lot of shops have had to close due to mandates from various states. Or have lost a good deal of their employees due to layoffs or early retirement packages.


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## Buffalo21 (Dec 13, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> My feeling is the government wouldn't accept that so why should you. Of course, the government pays a lot more...
> -Mark



I showed this thread to my BIL, a purchasing agent for a state maintenance dept, he said, no one would look at that, as long as it works. He said the only time cosmetic appearance is a concern is if it will be seen by the public, like signs and plaques, building door, frames and facades, actual work related supplies, as long as it works,


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## 7milesup (Dec 13, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> I’ve never washed a car in my life, to me they are just transportation,


Really?  
I wash and wax my cars regularly, along with normal maintenance.  It shows pride in ownership.


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## Tozguy (Dec 13, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> He said the only time cosmetic appearance is a concern is if it will be seen by the public,


The public in this case would be Erik. And he has all his holders in front of him all the time.

As a seller you face a steep slope to explain away shoddy workmanship of any kind. If the finish is on the holders for a reason then do it right or not at all, or your customers will be wondering what other standards you have also relaxed.

Paying a premium price usually gets you more, not less.


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## Buffalo21 (Dec 13, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Really?
> I wash and wax my cars regularly, along with normal maintenance.  It shows pride in ownership.



I could not care less about the theory of pride of ownership, I need it to start and to stop when needed. I buy new GM vans, run them for 175,000 to 225,000 miles (based on the last 5 vans), then send them down the road. They have high mileage, but are structurally and mechanically sound, carpenters, floor people, painters and landscapers are standing in line to snap up the hulks. But that’s just me, if I had a collectible car, it might be different, but as I don’t, they get washed, every time it rains.


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## akjeff (Dec 13, 2020)

I'd send them back in a heartbeat. You pay a premium for top shelf USA made product, that's what you should get. Just don't understand putting out half assed work like that.


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 14, 2020)

If talking with the Customer Service rep is not getting you what you are asking for, I would escalate it to a manager.


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## erikmannie (Dec 14, 2020)

They got back to me very quickly:




I have not received a tracking number yet, but I am sure that another replacement tool holder will arrive soon.


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 15, 2020)

Let us know how this turns out. 
Thanks


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## Cadillac STS (Dec 15, 2020)

Agree it should be perfect for the premium price


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## erikmannie (Dec 16, 2020)

Update (email exchange):

Me:
"Thanks for sending another replacement. Hopefully the third time will be the charm. Do you know the tracking number for the replacement tool holder?
     I will cancel the PayPal claim as soon as I get a tool holder with an adequate finish, as well as send back this one with the poor finish on the bottom.
     Did you guys notice that the finish is good on all sides except for the bottom? I understand the gold lines where it may have been on a rack while it is getting blued; that is not a problem because the bare steel is protected from corrosion.
     It is the scuffing and flakes that caused me to complain because, as you know, the bare steel could well lead to exposure to humidity and resultant corrosion (pitting)."

Aloris Customer Service:
"We see a claim was put through NO claim should go through Paypal per management since you are dealing direct with the factory (Aloris Tool) and this item is being sent again no charge.  If any credit is to be issued this will be done directly with Aloris Tool.  The bottom of our holders will never be perfect when black finished.  If you would like to know the procedure you can contact our production manager.  Please make sure these holds are sent back or you will be charged accordingly.

The holder will shipped via UPS no charge today 12/16/20 since UPS did not pick up at our facility yesterday."

And then they sent an image of the Picking List that includes the tracking number.


I did not open a PayPal claim until after the first replacement was received and seen to be scuffed.


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## pontiac428 (Dec 16, 2020)

Looks like the factory is always right.  Wasn't there once a similar saying about the customer?  And how dare you empower yourself by invoking your final line of defense with PayPal so early in this dispute.  Aloris makes good stuff, too bad they don't have the same pride in manufacturing as you do in owning nice tools.  It's like buying a new Cadillac and getting it delivered with a dent in the door- then having the dealer say it would happen anyway in your first year of ownership, so there's no reason to do anything about it...


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## AlanB (Dec 16, 2020)

I think many companies consider the web, ebay and paypal to be "secondary channels", their distribution networks are the primary channels. In some cases they are selling seconds rather than prime quality through these channels. So buying through their regular distribution channels is often what companies prefer, and how their business is designed to operate. The internet may be a second rate outlet for them.

I sell and ship things through PayPal. The problem is, when the customer raises a dispute through PayPal, I can no longer ship them anything via PayPal - the options are locked out. The only option is to refund the order, and much of the time that's not very helpful. If the customer releases the dispute so that I can ship the product they cannot file another dispute on that transaction later if it doesn't get resolved. 

So the PayPal dispute option is best as a last resort, when communications with the vendor has already reached impasse or failure.


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## slodat (Jan 25, 2021)

Did you get a good holder from Aloris?


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## erikmannie (Jan 25, 2021)

slodat said:


> Did you get a good holder from Aloris?



The third one was fine. I should have posted that here earlier.

I still love Aloris. I placed an order with them today.


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## Cooter Brown (Jan 25, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> The bottom of our holders will never be perfect when black finished.  If you would like to know the procedure you can contact our production manager.



I Love Aloris even more now! I can't wait to get another one......


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## SLK001 (Jan 25, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> That's not scuffing or shipping damage, that's poor anodizing.  I would get your credit card company involved if the factory is stubborn
> -Mark



That's not anodizing.  That's a black oxide finish.


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## sdelivery (Jan 29, 2021)

Boswell said:


> wow, I probably would never have even noticed. I am mostly a Function over Form type of guy though and would only care if it worked the way it should.


I live the machining life every day. These are tools that in designed use will likely be stripped clean of the finish by chips in the first year or so.
As far as rust in the designed environment they have coolant residue on them (almost everything does) and shouldn't rust.
Water or an incorrect coolant/water ratio will lead to rust.
That being said You have a right to complain about the finish on a brand new product and the manufacture should make it right.
In industry no one would care about that finish, they would just botch about it!


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## sdelivery (Jan 30, 2021)

jmkasunich said:


> More like "Aloris has a reputation to milk all the way to the bank until it's gone."
> 
> Too many short-sighted MBAs are running companies that used to be run by toolmakers, engineers, or other people who took pride in their products.  Now it's all about the quarterly profit report.  Got a reputation for top quality?  That's an asset to be exploited.  Make cheap ****, sell it at inflated prices to people who still believe the reputation.  If the reputation is gone in 10 years, who cares.  Shut it down and go buy another company and do the same thing.


AMEN, I see this and have experienced it first hand.
You know what the one told me? Well, there is a learning curve and your bound to make some mistakes!
Found out he had already run a profitable business in to the ground.....he succeeded in running the one I worked at into bankruptcy


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