# Bead Blast Rust or Use Rust Converter?



## Susan_in_SF (Dec 16, 2018)

Hi Guys,

As many of you know, I am a poor newbie who is onto vintage machinery and tools. Hence, most of the stuff I can afford is rusty, to one degree or another.
I found this study that tested and compared various rust converters:

https://www.ncptt.nps.gov/blog/comparative-study-of-commercially-available-rust-converters/

Rust-oleum Rust Reformer came out the winner.  

Since Rust-oleum Rust Reformer supposedly protects the metal from further rusting, I wondered when would bead blasting a rusty item still be preferred over converting the rust into a protective coating.

Also, for the times where bead blasting is a better option, is there anything better for rust prevention than to immediately paint with primer?

I am just a helpless woman looking for assistance.....lol ;-)

Thanks,
Susan


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## Al 1 (Dec 16, 2018)

I have used what ever I have.  As long as the metal is cleaned off before painting: oils etc. Washed off with liquor thinner , simple green etc.
I have never got rust coming through from metal machinery.   Warm metal seams to take paint better.  I have warmed up metal and sprayed painted in freezing weather and it has held well.     Al.


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## GL (Dec 16, 2018)

When I can, I blast.  But, for moving parts the grit can get in between things if you can't get it apart to clean up after.  Blasting gets into the nooks better than a wire wheel sometimes and better for small parts in a cabinet.  Metal will flash rust after blasting, so primer is your friend - you probably didn't get it all so I use the rust converter primer there too.   I haven't used soda for media yet, but 80 grit beads will take out detail, smooth machined surfaces, and edges if that's important.  I'm far from an authority on paint, but I do know rust prevention is more about prep than what's in the can if you use decent materials.


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## mikey (Dec 16, 2018)

I think Evaporust is really useful for small items with surface rust. Works good, works fast and doesn't eat up the parent metal. 

On larger parts, I use the electrolytic process. I've done parts from screws to entire lawn mower chassis with this process. It removes all rust and paint, thereby saving a ton of work. It is pretty safe and mostly non-toxic. If I could only do one thing to remove rust, this would be it.

I use "The Must For Rust" on and off. This is a Phosphoric Acid solution that works pretty okay for surface stuff. I dilute it and spray it on parts that come out of the electrolytic bath. This prevents flash rust and can be primed and painted right over it. 

Most of the time, I am trying to restore a rusty thing. Haven't had to resort to blasting anything yet.


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## hman (Dec 16, 2018)

Al 1 said:


> Washed off with liquor thinner ...,


Plain water or club soda?


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## NortonDommi (Dec 16, 2018)

Susan_in_SF said:


> I am just a helpless woman looking for assistance.


  We all sincerely doubt that Susan and woe to you if a 3rd-wave feminist finds out you said that  .

  My preference is for a Tannic Acid based product called Emer Tan made by Henkel Industries.  When they acquired the rights to make this the took it off the market so as to sell another of their products that has an Acrylic sealer built in.  I just managed to obtain some,(at nearly 4 times the price it used to be),as apparently the produce small batches every now and then for some major customers. I like it because of its capillary action which lets it creep a long way and used before stripping old machinery also aid in the action of penetrating fluid after conversion.   If making something similar Tannin from your local home brew shop is superior to super strong Tea and very cheap, Phosphoric Acid however is a bit pricey.

  As to blasting, unless you are prepared to do a total strip down and have old taps in all required sizes to properly clean out tapped holes forget Glass beading. Also don't Glass bead any Aluminium to be polished as it makes it about 10 x harder to get a decent finish due to surface compaction and microscopic traces embedded in the surface,(ask me how I found this out).
  Wet Soda blasting is really safe and an anti-corrosive is usually added to the liquid carrier so all that is required before paint or any other surface treatment is a rinse.


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## Susan_in_SF (Dec 16, 2018)

NortonDommi said:


> We all sincerely doubt that Susan and woe to you if a 3rd-wave feminist finds out you said that  .
> 
> My preference is for a Tannic Acid based product called Emer Tan made by Henkel Industries.  When they acquired the rights to make this the took it off the market so as to sell another of their products that has an Acrylic sealer built in.  I just managed to obtain some,(at nearly 4 times the price it used to be),as apparently the produce small batches every now and then for some major customers. I like it because of its capillary action which lets it creep a long way and used before stripping old machinery also aid in the action of penetrating fluid after conversion.   If making something similar Tannin from your local home brew shop is superior to super strong Tea and very cheap, Phosphoric Acid however is a bit pricey.
> 
> ...


Thank you NortonDommi.  If any feminists get on my case for saying that, I bet they don't own a South Bend  ;-)  I can say stuff like that since I know I am capable, lol.


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## psgflier (Dec 17, 2018)

One of the things you have to watch out for with mechanical rust removal ( blasting, wire brush, etc.) is that metal can get peened over pockets of rust and the rust will explode out at a later time, rust never sleeps. 
Most of the rust converters I've used work best on a light coat of rust, but the loose rust and scale needs to be removed. I've had good luck with a product called Corroseal (sp). 
If you get cleaned up to bright metal a rust converter is not necessary and a good primer and paint , preferably self-etching, works fine. 
If it's a bare surface you just have to scrub it down and keep it oiled or waxed. 
Almost all of the rust removal methods, mechanical or chemical erode metal. Electrolysis doesn't and I prefer it, especially on thin sheet metal.


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## MrWhoopee (Dec 17, 2018)

I was quite surprised at how well white vinegar did the job.


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## NortonDommi (Dec 17, 2018)

*MrWhoopee *Any Acid will work to remove rust, Vinegar, Oxalic, Acetic, all are common ones around the house.  Tannic Acid from strong Black Tea is another.  These are all mild Acids so fairly safe for Humans as well as the metal but they all remove metal as well as rust.
  Converters are different in that the actually convert the rust on the surface to an adherent inert layer that resists further corrosion and provides a porous substrate for further treatment such as an oil, wax or paint.  A converter treated with a drying oil can leave a tough attractive finish that will last indefinitely inside.


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## warrjon (Dec 17, 2018)

I have used both methods and it depends on what you are planning to do.

Blasting requires immediate preparation and at the least priming or the metal will have surface rust again in a couple of days. I found even overnight I had surface rust on components after blasting.

When I resprayed my car (bare metal respray) I used rust converter on surface rust. It turns it black and provides a protective layer to prevent further rusting.

I have also oil dipped metal to prevent rust. I did this on my surface plate feet. Heat them before dull red and plunge into an oil bath. Just be careful as the oil can sometimes flash, and you will lose an eyebrow, (don't ask how I know that)..........


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## Dabbler (Dec 17, 2018)

So I don't bead blast or convert in normal circumstances.  I use a wire wheel with long wires.  Yes, some of them break off, but they are really easy to see and remove.  Only for spot application I use rustoleum.  

On things like small parts, I usually glass bead - unless they are fragile then I use a citrus based rust remover.

Like anything, the answer is usually 'it depends'


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## vocatexas (Dec 17, 2018)

It all depends on whether you are trying to _convert _the rust or _remove _the rust. The Rustoleum product you linked is a rust converter. It simply converts iron oxide to iron tannate. Ospho is a product I have used that converts rust into iron phosphate. For rust removal, I've had great luck with Evaporust. Another method is electrolisis, but it won't get into cavities and corners unless they are line-of-sight with the anode and electrode.


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## mikey (Dec 18, 2018)

vocatexas said:


> Another method is electrolisis, but it won't get into cavities and corners unless they are line-of-sight with the anode and electrode.



Not trying to be contrary but I've been using electrolysis for maybe 15 years or more and have not found this line of sight thing to be true. I've seen it said before but have not found it to be the case. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.


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## ezduzit (Dec 18, 2018)

Though many of my machines were purchased used, some ancient and very well used, I avoid anything so rusty it requires sandblasting (ugh!).

Heavily rusted flat surfaces, such as you might find on a table saw or shaper top, can be restored by first scraping with a razor scraper, then steel wool, and lastly Scotchbright pads for metal (brown). Lightly rusted surfaces, such as engraved machine dials, can be cleaned up using just the Scotchbright pad.


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## Bob Korves (Dec 18, 2018)

mikey said:


> Not trying to be contrary but I've been using electrolysis for maybe 15 years or more and have not found this line of sight thing to be true. I've seen it said before but have not found it to be the case. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.


I have never used electrolysis, but watching YouTube videos about using it makes it seem to be a really useful choice for removing rust without damaging what metal remains.  It is definitely something to consider for bigger jobs.  You can make a tank out of wood or metal, or a hole in the ground, or an above ground swimming pool, or whatever, line it with polyethylene sheet, and get it working.  The bath can actually be built right around the piece to be treated, as long as it will hold water.  The process is not particularly dangerous to the user or to the environment, beyond what was in and on the metal.  It is cheap, only a tank, water, washing soda, electricity, and a battery charger and some electrodes. 

I really like Evaporust, but it is pretty much constrained to smaller and more important parts, due to the cost of the product.  They really need to be totally covered with Evaporust, or an etched line will form on the metal at the liquid to air interface.  The instructions say that wet towels can be soaked in Evaporust for using on larger surfaces, and perhaps that is so, but I have had no luck with it.  Perhaps if you kept everything wet for the entire period by wrapping it with plastic wrap, or some other strategy besides re-wetting the towels often for the many hours needed for Evaporust to do the job.  If I ever need to remove rust from a large but special part, I will use electrolysis.  Both of those methods, done right, remove rust, and only rust, relatively quickly and without damaging the remaining parent metal.  Zero etching or pitting. 

Another method that is also safe is using molasses.  It works, is environmentally safe, can be bought fairly cheap in large quantities at a feed store, and does the job without attacking the parent metal.  The biggest issue with it is that it is as slow as... molasses!  If you have lots of time, it is said to be a good choice.  I have zero experience with it.

I will not use acids and other products that remove metal indiscriminately, unless perhaps it is an old rusty shovel.  But, I don't let my shovels rust...  I do not like the frosting that acids impart on the surface of the metal from attacking it along with the rust.  YMMV.


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## psgflier (Dec 19, 2018)

I'm 2 steps below a novice machinist so I can't contribute much toward that end, but I've been operating and maintaining rusty old junk machinery as a logger, farmer, railroader most of my life. 
The last 35 years I've lived here in Southeast Alaska and maintained equipment operated in salt water and high humidity (at least it's cool unlike coastal Texas or Florida ). Commercial fishing boats, sport boats, airplanes and vehicles are all subject to some pretty severe corrosion, everything is in a hurry to return to it's natural state. I've used just about every method available to clean-up rust; hand tools, power tools, wire brushes, grinders, needle scalers, elbow grease and chemicals. I like sand blasting, I just bought a new sand blast cabinet and I have a pressure pot for big stuff, for heavy rust on heavy iron it's fun to watch new shinny metal appear. 
Several years ago I was restoring a old Dodge Power Wagon. Sand blasting tended to destroy sheet metal parts, it erodes away the thin metal but also causes it to stretch and distort. I learned about electrolysis. What a wonderful way to clean up rusty parts. I cleaned up some sheet metal parts that I thought were beyond salvage, sandblasting, wire brushing or chemicals would have destroyed them. After a dip in the electrolysis tank they looked almost new, you could even see the stamped part numbers.
I expanded to a 30 gallon plastic garbage can and a larger battery charger and started doing all the steel parts that way. I tried different electrolyte mixes ( plain water is an electrolyte, additives just make it more efficient) and discovered salt water worked best, I just go down to a dock and fill up buckets with salt water( I wash after in muratic acid then water and paint immediately). Any dc voltage will work, but the more current the faster the results. My 24 volt battery charger worked great until the smoke leaked out of it. The sludge that comes of the part and the anode build up in the bottom of the tank and when it reaches the part it creates a short circuit and out goes the smoke.
I had a batch going one time and was doing some oxy/ac cutting. I kept hearing loud pops, almost like a firecracker. I realized the sparks from the cutting were igniting the hydrogen gas bubbles escaping from the electrolysis tank. I was outdoors so there was no danger of hydrogen accumulating and causing a fire or explosion, but it's something to be aware of.
I got a 20amp 12volt power supply and a large fish tote from a local fish cannery to clean the larger parts from these old trucks, but life has put that project on hold for a while and I've only done a few small parts lately. Most of the work I've been doing lately is on small airplanes and electrolysis doesn't work on aluminum.


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## Aukai (Dec 19, 2018)

I hate seeing smoke from machines, it's like herding cats, you can never get it to go where you want, and it won't go back to where it came from.


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## CluelessNewB (Dec 19, 2018)

I'm a big fan of electrolysis.   I use washing soda (available at most grocery stores in a yellow Arm & Hammer Box, typically near laundry detergent).  I have two different containers and power supplies.  The small container is a 5 gallon bucket.  The large is a big plastic trash barrel.  One power supply is an old battery charger, the other uses a transformer salvaged from a computer UPS and a full wave bridge rectifier (about $3) and a fuse in case of accidental short. .   It also has an ammeter to see how well things are going but it is not necessary, bubbles tell you if it's going.  

Here are instructions for the process.  Hooking the correct lead (Negative) to the part to be cleaned is important.   

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp


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## ThinWoodsman (Dec 19, 2018)

> On larger parts, I use the electrolytic process. I've done parts from screws to entire lawn mower chassis with this process. It removes all rust and paint, thereby saving a ton of work. It is pretty safe and mostly non-toxic. If I could only do one thing to remove rust, this would be it.



Ditto. Washing soda in a paint bucket using rebar and a $15 battery charger I got at tractor supply. There's a good Instructable on this. People are freaked out by the dodgy-looking wiring, but the amperage is so low that even if you get a spark it's pretty harmless. Just don't use near any pools of gasoline.

For machinery I have a multi-stage process which escalates depending on how bad the rust is. Obviously first pass is kerosene and a brush, though it is slow going for anything but surface rust. Most of the time, the rust is due to accumulation of dirt/dust/etc in caked-on oil (undoubtedly used forty-weight), and brushing or spraying something that breaks up oil deposits like MMO or Heet then letting it soak for a few hours will make it possible to scrub off with a nylon brush, 0000 steel wool, or a brass brush (try them in that order). If that doesn't work, it's time for the heavy artillery, i.e. the expensive chemicals. Evap-o-rust, Corrosion X, etc. I've found USA Fluid to be quite effective if left alone for awhile, but it is rather over-priced and I have yet to locate an MSDS for it.

I only use a wire wheel for stock now - electrolysis is less of a mess (in terms of stuff flying around) and gets into all the nooks and crannies that a wheel will miss.

The Rustoleum Rust Reformer stuff is pretty good. I don't trust it yet, so I only have used it on things like metal carts, benches, and stands, but it seems to work pretty good. Get the caked-on rust off with a wire brush and kero, then do 2-3 coats and it looks good as new. Have to wait and see if it falls apart in ten years.


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## Susan_in_SF (Jan 3, 2019)

warrjon said:


> I have used both methods and it depends on what you are planning to do.
> 
> Blasting requires immediate preparation and at the least priming or the metal will have surface rust again in a couple of days. I found even overnight I had surface rust on components after blasting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up on the flash, warrjon.  I like my eyebrows, lol


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## Susan_in_SF (Jan 3, 2019)

psgflier said:


> I'm 2 steps below a novice machinist so I can't contribute much toward that end, but I've been operating and maintaining rusty old junk machinery as a logger, farmer, railroader most of my life.
> The last 35 years I've lived here in Southeast Alaska and maintained equipment operated in salt water and high humidity (at least it's cool unlike coastal Texas or Florida ). Commercial fishing boats, sport boats, airplanes and vehicles are all subject to some pretty severe corrosion, everything is in a hurry to return to it's natural state. I've used just about every method available to clean-up rust; hand tools, power tools, wire brushes, grinders, needle scalers, elbow grease and chemicals. I like sand blasting, I just bought a new sand blast cabinet and I have a pressure pot for big stuff, for heavy rust on heavy iron it's fun to watch new shinny metal appear.
> Several years ago I was restoring a old Dodge Power Wagon. Sand blasting tended to destroy sheet metal parts, it erodes away the thin metal but also causes it to stretch and distort. I learned about electrolysis. What a wonderful way to clean up rusty parts. I cleaned up some sheet metal parts that I thought were beyond salvage, sandblasting, wire brushing or chemicals would have destroyed them. After a dip in the electrolysis tank they looked almost new, you could even see the stamped part numbers.
> I expanded to a 30 gallon plastic garbage can and a larger battery charger and started doing all the steel parts that way. I tried different electrolyte mixes ( plain water is an electrolyte, additives just make it more efficient) and discovered salt water worked best, I just go down to a dock and fill up buckets with salt water( I wash after in muratic acid then water and paint immediately). Any dc voltage will work, but the more current the faster the results. My 24 volt battery charger worked great until the smoke leaked out of it. The sludge that comes of the part and the anode build up in the bottom of the tank and when it reaches the part it creates a short circuit and out goes the smoke.
> ...


Thanks for the input.  I really do want to try out electrolysis eventually.  I've read so many positive things about it.


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## Susan_in_SF (Jan 3, 2019)

CluelessNewB said:


> I'm a big fan of electrolysis.   I use washing soda (available at most grocery stores in a yellow Arm & Hammer Box, typically near laundry detergent).  I have two different containers and power supplies.  The small container is a 5 gallon bucket.  The large is a big plastic trash barrel.  One power supply is an old battery charger, the other uses a transformer salvaged from a computer UPS and a full wave bridge rectifier (about $3) and a fuse in case of accidental short. .   It also has an ammeter to see how well things are going but it is not necessary, bubbles tell you if it's going.
> 
> Here are instructions for the process.  Hooking the correct lead (Negative) to the part to be cleaned is important.
> 
> http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp


Thanks for the link, not-so CluelessNewB


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## Susan_in_SF (Jan 3, 2019)

Thanks guys for your responses.  After reading your feedback on electrolysis, I picked up a manual Schumacher battery charger.  Whenever I finally try using this on a rusty item, I will definitely share with you guys how it goes 
Susan


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## Headrc (Jan 4, 2019)

I also put together an electrolysis tub quickly and simply and it works like a charm.  Best way to get rid of rust I have found ...and the cheapest way.  Tubalcain (Lyle) on Youtube did a fantastic demo of using all the methods if you want to check it out.


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## warrjon (Jan 4, 2019)

Susan_in_SF said:


> Thanks for the heads up on the flash, warrjon.  I like my eyebrows, lol



They do grow back LOL


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## NortonDommi (Jan 4, 2019)

Headrc said:


> Best way to get rid of rust I have found ...and the cheapest way.


Best way I have found is a wheelie bin filled with water/Molasses at 40-60:1.  Degrease, dump in and leave.  Different metals take different lengths of time.  Slow but extremely effective and no worries if you forget something is in there as only rust is affected.  Cheapest method I know off.  I had one bin going for over 20 years and only changed bins because I had a spasm and dropped an axle that cracked the bottom of the bin.  A jar of Black-strap Molasses is free from my mates farm, Rainwater is free and even the bins were free because the council changed contractors and a pile of them got scrapped.


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## porthos (Jan 4, 2019)

i bought my 1955 10L about 6 years ago. it had a coat of brown paint over the original. i disassembled everything and had it soda blasted. the cost was $250.00. took the guy about 3 hours and it was CLEAN


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## tq60 (Jan 4, 2019)

We use a plastic trash can with different voltage power supplies as different crud levels sometimes take a bit more voltage.

Lye is what we use as it attacks anything organic so rust, paint, grease or anything else it comes off and the electricity works on the rust.

Have a timer to limit it and it will warm up and work better with the heat. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Bob Korves (Jan 4, 2019)

tq60 said:


> Lye is what we use as it attacks anything organic so rust, paint, grease or anything else it comes off and the electricity works on the rust.


Be careful, sodium hydroxide (lye) will attack just about everything except iron and steel, including you...


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## Susan_in_SF (Jan 7, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> Be careful, sodium hydroxide (lye) will attack just about everything except iron and steel, including you...


Thanks for the warning, Bob.


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## Firstram (Jan 7, 2019)

Electrolysis is the way to go but never use stainless steel as an electrode, it releases chromium which is toxic. 

For what it's worth, I use 1 pound of Lye, 2 cups of washing soda and 8-10 ounces of unscented Jet Dry in a 40 gallon Brute trash can 3/4 full of water. The Lye helps remove oil and paint and the Jet Dry acts as a wetting agent. This solution is less aggressive than Purple Power but it's still caustic so I do wear goggles.


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## mikey (Jan 7, 2019)

Firstram said:


> Electrolysis is the way to go but never use stainless steel as an electrode, it releases chromium which is toxic.
> 
> For what it's worth, I use 1 pound of Lye, 2 cups of washing soda and 8-10 ounces of unscented Jet Dry in a 40 gallon Brute trash can 3/4 full of water. The Lye helps remove oil and paint and the Jet Dry acts as a wetting agent. This solution is less aggressive than Purple Power but it's still caustic so I do wear goggles.



Just curious. I've never thought about using a wetting agent on a submerged piece. Does it make a difference and if so, how do you tell? I haven't had any issues with electrolysis but if something will make it faster then it might be worth a go. I will forgo the lye, though.


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## Firstram (Jan 7, 2019)

I don't remember where I saw it, the guy who posted it up had a very large/hard core setup. I was just getting started with electrolysis and it seemed to make sense. It's the only way I've done it so I cant say if it's faster.


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## mikey (Jan 7, 2019)

Okay, thanks. I'll look into it and see if there is anything to support a wetting agent.


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## Firstram (Jan 8, 2019)

I'm interested in what you find out. I used that first can full for two years or so until hurricane Florence flooded my shop. If it's not worth the effort/money I'll skip it when I set back up.


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## mikey (Jan 8, 2019)

Might be a while before I do an electrolysis project and have a chance to test it but I'll try to remember to post the results. 

I found it interesting that a wetting agent was an essential component in the patented electrolytic process back in 1947. Of course, they used all sorts of caustic chemicals in the original process but it seems that a wetting agent was important. Here is what they had to say about it:

_The wetting agent which is preferably a sulfonated oil type of compound or a sulfated alcohol, improves the penetrating power of the solution so that the composition tends to penetrate even into most minute crevices or intersticcs in the article, thereby facilitating the removal of rust or other unwanted surface impurities from the article. `It also has a tendency to decrease the danger of a back E. M. F. in the .solution during electrolysis since it decreases the surface tension of. the liquid and thereby enables the gases produced to pass readily from the solution. The wetting agent must, of course, not be affected by the presence of nascent oxygen and hydrogen inthe bath, it must be stable at the high pH value of the solution and it must be efficient and have a long operating life. _

I'll have to look into a compatible wetting agent that works with the stuff I use but it might just improve things, I dunno'. Whoever came up with the idea to use it in the current home shop was thinking, though!


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## ThinWoodsman (Jan 8, 2019)

mikey said:


> _The wetting agent which is preferably a sulfonated oil type of compound or a sulfated alcohol_



So, like a peated scotch then? 

More seriously, looks like sulfonated castor oil would work. I'll see if I can track some down - have a lot of electrolysis to do, but had to dump the solution on Sunday when the temps dropped down to 18 F. I do the electrolysis in the (unheated) barn, so it's possible I won't be able to try again until April if last year's winter is anything to go by.


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## mikey (Jan 8, 2019)

Jeez, 18 degrees! Its currently 78 degrees here and sunny. Winter in Hawaii is a different thing!


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## Firstram (Jan 8, 2019)

Thanks for the research, I was beginning to doubt myself. I thought I had bookmarked the site but I cant find it. The guy who started the thread was serious about rust removal and possibly getting ready to start a business. His tank was probably 300 gallons or more with carbon plates every foot or so and the two long sides were capped with copper bars. Massive power supplies were ready to go and the guy stopped posting before the end of his project, I think the thread died 4 years ago.


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