# Getting from zero to hero?



## synfinatic (Dec 2, 2020)

Long story short, owning a lathe and a mill has been something I've been thinking about for a more than a few years, but I'm missing that key project to push me over the edge from lurker to owner.  Partially, that has to do with having too many hobbies and how do I make time for another one?  But many of my hobbies (motorcycles, guns/reloading, astronomy to name a few) definitely would benefit from being able to make parts by making chips rather than just 3d printing parts.  I suppose I should done this 10 years ago before I paid someone to design and CNC a custom bracket to install a Suzuki SV650 motor in a Ducati 1098 frame for my race bike, but that was arguably far too complex of a project for a first time machinist.

Anyways, I sorta bought my first 3d printer on a whim... figuring I'd come up with uses for it and wow, did that pay off- I've used it a ton and have become proficient in Fusion360 to boot.  I pretty much assume the same will be true for a lathe & mill.  But my first 3d printer was $800 and takes up a few square feet on my desk.  I built my 2nd one and it's bigger, but still sits on a small table in my office and I can move it with two hands.   Honestly, it's not all the $$$$ that is holding me back as much as spending $$$$ and worrying it just sitting there because I ran out of things to do.  Problem is right now at least all the projects I'd do are for the most part things I can just buy like this simple tool I bought last week: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CJZ83M/   It's hard to justify a few grand (or more) worth of equipment to make a $20 part once or twice a month.  Logically, this makes no sense really.

Doesn't help that my neighbor across the street owns a fabrication shop and is willing to do occasional small jobs for free just because he's neighborly like that.  Or that someone I know owns a Haas mill the size of a car and does CNC work for Tesla/NASA and is happy to do the occasional part for me at a reduced rate (assuming I wait a week or two).  But I've always wanted to do things myself and learn.  Also, I don't take advantage of my neighbor as much as I might because I don't want to abuse that relationship so I end up buying more crap off Amazon than making it myself since it's easier/faster unless what I need is totally custom which honestly isn't all that often.

Oh, and yeah, I'd love to learn how to weld- that would be super useful.   In a perfect world it would probably be TIG because I suspect I'd end up working a lot in aluminum, but MIG is probably more realistic.  I'll just drill holes and tap for AL I suppose.  Would be great if I could learn to weld up some stands for the lathe/mill, but sorta seems like I'm just digging myself a really deep hole with a ton of things to learn just to get things setup and I'll be watching a lot of youtube videos to figure out how to tram things and hopefully not kill myself as I learn WTF I'm doing.

So yeah, I live in a house with a 2.5 car garage and no plans to move.  Have 100A to a box in the garage so power (at least 120/240 single phase) isn't a real problem.  Already have a 60gal compressor and small blasting cabinet and the random set of small tools (bench grinder, drill press, dremel, etc) that non-serious people who do limited fabrication end up accumulating over the years.  Being in my mid-40's with a well paying tech job I can and prefer to buy-once-cry-once.  At the same time, I have no delusions of grandeur that I'm going to quit my day job and become a machinist full time.  Just hobbyist work and the random side job for friends. Perhaps when I retire I could see becoming a part time gunsmith, but I live in CA so I figure they'll outlaw that by then.  

I've looked into classes at the local JC, but for various reasons it hasn't worked out (covid isn't helping obviously).  I'm kinda at the point where I think I really should just clean the garage, re-do my storage to make room and drop $$$ on mill & lathe and then start figuring out what tooling I need based on what comes up and start making chips.  But kinda scared about what I'm getting myself into...

So yeah, trying to figure out a realistic plan which will set me up for success and not regret my decision to invest in this hobby.  Based on my research, I've been thinking something like a Precision Mathews PM-1340GT lathe since I'd love to be able to do rifle barrels some day, metric threading is super useful in astronomy and  motorcycles, quality is important to me and I just can't see myself going any bigger.  Not as sure about the mill... I have a friend who is far more experienced than I and his one piece of advice was: "Get something 500lbs or heavier." which cuts out a lot of the smaller mills, but I can see myself swinging something like a PM-833T(V).  Yes, I know I need to budget tooling... that's doable.  Kind figuring I should pass on the welder for now... I mean it would be great, but don't want to bite off more than I can chew at once right?  Not sure if I'd ever convert the mill to CNC, so not too worried about that for now.

Anyways, how insane am I?  What advice would you give to someone who has been thinking about this for a while, done his research but is basically afraid to commit AND really doesn't want to deal with selling off and upgrading machines in a few years after outgrowing them?  I'm not someone who is interested in making model steam engines or pens to sit around and collect dust.  Okay, doing things like that as a learning exercise is fine, but I'm definitely someone who likes making things to solve problems then stare at.  Would love to make my own GEM mount for my telescope for example someday, but that's not a small project (and honestly not sure if I'd get the necessary accuracy out of hobbyist machines).  Seems like the #1 thing (and #2, #3 ...) I'd end up making on a lathe/mill is tools for the lathe & mill which seems cool, but there's that chicken & egg problem.

Anyways, if you get this far, thanks for reading.


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## sycle1 (Dec 3, 2020)

Just get the tools and learn as you go.
It is easier than you think, just go steady and remember your safety and you will be fine.
Put it this way if you have the tools, you can make use of them.
If you don't have the tools, well whats the use in that.


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## Ulma Doctor (Dec 3, 2020)

i have found the lathe to be the most useful machine tool, although i didn't get to buy one until i owned my own shop.
my first experiences with a machine tool was an old BP M head, reproducing obsolete one off parts for food processing machinery
the size was sufficient to make all but the largest of parts, but lacked power downfeed.
i got by and learned to love the lil machine after a couple seasons of cussin it.

in a way, i wish that i learned lathe skills before i went to the milling machine.

CNC is a wonderful tool, but i would strongly suggest manual machinery, as a pre-requisite to CNC technology.
once you work with and understand cutting forces, tool speed, travel speed, depth of cut, tool material selection and make mistakes manually- you are ready to move to CNC, (IMHO)

learning CNC will be another learning curve, but it inevitably be more and more common as time goes on.
you have the 3d printer, CNC mills and routers will do almost the same thing, but in reverse 

if CNC appeals, by no means stop from achieving whatever interests you.

but the only wrong thing to do is nothing!
good luck, whichever road you travel!


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## Winegrower (Dec 3, 2020)

Start thinking that you have a 0.5 car garage and go for it.


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## Downunder Bob (Dec 3, 2020)

I am not familiar with any PM machines as they are not available here in Australia, however by all reports they are generally pretty good. The 1340GT Is made in Taiwan not china so it should be  avery good machine. It is promoted as a suitable machine for gunsmithing, and I see no reason yo doubt that.

Apart from a slight difference in size and the colour it looks identical to my machine which was also made in Taiwan and from appearances probably in the same factory. The specs are also the same except the size. I have had my lathe now for just over 4 years and am extremely happy with it>

Go ahead have a talk to the folks at PM and put your money down I'd listen to their advice on what you need for accessories to get started, certainly 3 and 4 jaw chucks Quality BXA tool post, set of at least half a dozen tool holders to suit, A set of tools to suit both carbide inserts and HSS tools. A quality drill chuck, A live and dead centre. A fixed and a travelling steady Some of these may come as standard with the lathe
. 
There are many people on this forum that do excellent work with similar, and also lesser machines, on telescopes, Check out member SAVARIN. also many others doing work on motorbikes and cars. I'm sure you will get excellent advice from these members.

Unless they are offering a very special deal if you buy a lathe and a mill at the same time, I'd be inclined to just get the lathe first, and get used to it before getting a mill. 

There is no better way of turning $100 worth of good steel bars into scrap than with a lathe, so have fun and enjoy.

Good luck


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## addertooth (Dec 3, 2020)

I went Lathe, then wire Welder (to make the table for the Mill) and then the Mill.  But then, mixed in I also purchased metal cutting bandsaw (horizontal and vertical modes), engine hoist for lifting the mill, and a 12 ton press. I already had a belt sander, Grinder and drill press.


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## macardoso (Dec 3, 2020)

Personally, I'd say get the lathe, then learn what you need out of a mill. Usually easier to find a guy who can weld than do machining.

Lathe is easy, bigger is better usually. Mill is a bit more complex. Are you mostly drilling holes, doing big facing cuts, or do you need CNC for complex work?


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## MikeWi (Dec 3, 2020)

I went with a welder first because I needed it to repair some old farm equipment, but buying a lathe or mill wasn't even in the picture then. I bought a lathe next. I use the lathe far more than the welder. Still don't have a mill, but I could use one. I vote for the lathe first.

You have a leg up on most people with CNC because of your 3D printing experience and Fusion360 knowledge, but I add a vote for doing that later. 

I can provide a crude analogy from a neighbor who is a mechanical engineer designing plane parts. He came up from a tool and die maker background, and understood the manufacturing process required for what he was designing. He found that most of the other engineers had never even touched a mill or lathe, and because of that, they designed features that looked nice on screen, but weren't required from an engineering perspective, and added many steps to the manufacturing process.  He ended up teaching some classes for the other engineers so that, for instance, they understood what it meant when they required a 1/8" radius when a 1/2" would work just as well.

The point is if you start with the manual process, you'll have a much better understanding of what your designs will require of a CNC process.


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## 7milesup (Dec 3, 2020)

synfinatic said:


> Logically, this makes no sense really.


Bahahaha....  Well, you are in the wrong bunch here if you think we worry about buying tools and it making sense!  I mean, we have a thread "What did you buy today" that is over 150 pages long. 
Anywho... welcome to the best machinist forum on the internet.

So I have a few thoughts, although I am officially just part of the peanut gallery.  There is a writer, Kurt Vonnegut that has somewhat inspired me because of this...“I don’t think being good at things is the point of doing them. I think you’ve got all these wonderful experiences with different skills, and that all teaches you things and makes you an interesting person, no matter how well you do them.”
I have an 833T mill and really like it.  My intention is to convert it to CNC at some point.  I consider it a very capable machine with outstanding support from Precision Matthews.  There is a guy that has converted the 833TV to CNC.  --->833TV conversion<---
I also have a PM1022 lathe, which is way to small.  The 1340GT would be a good choice.
There will be some that say to get a large Bridgeport style mill.  Not saying those folks are necessarily wrong but sometimes the argument of weight=rigidity comes up.  David Best, a forum member on here, has an excellent rebuttal to that argument.  Look at this thread for his and Mark Jacobs 1340GT work and then search on Davids profile for his write up on rigidity.  I don't have time at the moment to find the link...Best & Jacobs 1340GT

I would like to give you some more info and links but I have to run at the moment.
Again, welcome to the rabbit hole forum.


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## mickri (Dec 3, 2020)

Make a list of everything you want and start looking.  Check things off of the list as you get them.  It really doesn't matter which comes first.  You are going to want it all any way.  And don't be in a hurry.  Unless you have the budget to buy new be prepared to go on lots of wild goose chases looking at worn out machines not worth buying.  Don't forget to add the cost of tooling in your budget.  Tooling up a lathe and mill can easily exceed what you paid for the lathe or mill.  That is one advantage to buying used.  It will often come with lots of tooling.  I looked for over a year before I found my mill/drill and lathe.  I found the mill first and then a couple of weeks later I found the lathe.  Estate sales can be a good source to find a lightly used well taken care machine at fair prices.  Often the family is just wanting to get rid of grandpa's junk. 

You are very lucky to have a neighbor and a friend who are machinists.  A lot of us have nothing more than the internet to guide us. Talk to them about your plans.  They will most likely know somebody with a machine just gathering dust that can be had for a song just to get it out of their shop.  And if you run into a problem you can run across the street to get some help.


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## mksj (Dec 3, 2020)

I started with a mill, for me it did more of what I needed, and had never used a lathe so didn't know what I was missing. At this point, in particular with what you want to do, you might as well get both because sooner than later you will kick your self if for not getting the other. If you want to make parts, then it is a no brainer, you need both.  I agree with 7milesup, the PM1340GT or 1440GT gives you enough capacity and accuracy for turning w/o getting into the heavier/bigger lathes. They are very good quality machines if you can get into this price level. Buy once, cry once. A lot of gunsmiths and tinkers go with these lathes, the 1440GT has the larger 2" spindle bore and manual foot brake which are nice, but the 1340GT is also very capable. Go 3 phase on the lathe, motor control and surface finish is better. Do a basic VFD control or go RPC. I also agree that the PM-833 is a very capable mill, if you are not boring large holes go with the variable speed 833TV. If you get the CNC itch down the line, there are conversion kits and lots of information for this model. Space wise, as far as machine foot prints, it is a good combination. If you want to go hog wild on the mill than I would move up to a full size knee mill like a PM-949 or KTM-3VSF, but at big price hike. Mass = rigidity, but not necessarily quality. Taiwanese machines offer better quality at a 20-25% cost premium. Used mills and lathes, may not be much savings these days, and more likely to bite you if you do not know how to fully assess their condition. New machines have a warranty, PM/QMT seems to have the longest (5 years on Taiwanese machines) and a good reputation.

I will add one more must have machine to your pile, which is a metal band saw, w/o that how are you going to rough cut all your metal. Consider a PM-712G Horizontal/Vertical or Jet HVBS-710SG 7 x 10.5 Miter Band Saw to holiday buying spree. I have the Enco/MSC version 712G and it works decently, but if I were to do it again I would go with the Jet Swivel head which is much better for doing miters and such. Jet is running a year end rebate until the end of the year, so this model will come in at just over 2K delivered with the rebate. Mine has coolant, if I do a lot of cutting I use it, if infrequent I run dry with a good blade and manually apply some cutting oil for steel.

Welder, it is an art to get it into it and do decent welds. I don't weld but have friends that do and have spent years perfecting their skills. TIG is harder than MIG, lots of parts to the puzzle. The Miller Multimatic's get very good reviews as a combination welder and they seem to hold-up well.  Plan on 2-3K as an entry level, I would put this 2nd tier to the machines above. If you have friends that weld, spend some time with them, have them weld up you parts and learn the basics first.

Prices continue to go up, this year it seems like everything has gone up 15-20%. Do not know if this is tariffs, limited supply, or global costs but I doubt anything is going to be less expensive next year. Supply and inventory is going to be significant issue probably until mid to end of next year. Ok, you have the most of the machinery list, now for the bad news. Outfitting the mill with a decent Vise like a Kurt DX6, collets, parallels, end mills/face mills, indicators and such will very quickly push you past another 1K.  On the lathe, well that is a sink hole money pit when it comes to outfitting it with decent tooling. I have spent as much on chucks and tooling as I did for my lathe. You can start out light, but I would realistically start out with a 1-2K budget for tooling, and that assumes you already have decent chucks.


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## Winegrower (Dec 3, 2020)

mickri said:


> You are going to want it all any way.



Ding...ding...We have a winner of the "best overall summary" award.


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## Bi11Hudson (Dec 3, 2020)

All in all, I'm probably the last person you should listen to at this point. Mostly I build (small) model trains and my use of machine tools is related primarily to that particular hobby. There is also the factor of working with wood on an old house, but the tools for that are a whole different issue. But I do make special tools for woodworking with my metal machines.

But there is a point I would like to throw out for your consideration. In the "lathe vs mill" discussion, milling of a sort can be done on a lathe. Accuracy is less, as a rule, and speed is far less. And there are many limitations with size. But it can be done. Lathe work also can be, to a small extent, done on a mill. No threading on the mill, but that's just a lack of knowledge on my part. I'm sure it could be done.

But the lathe is the earliest and most useful of machines in history. All other machine tools were some adaptation of a basic lathe. I would go for the lathe first, with milling attachments. Progress to a milling machine when work exceeds the capacity of the lathe. As a "second" machine, I would look toward a drill press. Maybe even before a lathe, if I were starting over from scratch. I bought a small machine (UniMat DB-200) when I was 18ish. It has followed me around the world a few times. It was convertable to a drill press and milling machine as part of the design. But it wouldn't do threading. I had to advance to a larger machine just to get threading. Had a Chinese "mini-lathe" existed at the time, that would have done it for me.

As far as the "machine vs welder" goes, that's a call you must make for yourself. I have had a stick welder since I got discharged from the military. Almost as long as I've had the lathe. . . There are several different modes of welding, Rod, MIG, TIG, and a few others. When you get into other materials, such as plastics, there are even more. I find a welder useful for working on a trailer, for example. But on my shop projects, I usually assemble them with screws. Again, the way I do things. The welder cannot be classed as a "machine tool". They serve completely different, although related. purposes.

If you can find it, a Mr Dave Gingery did a series of books about home built machine tools. *Not to build the machines*, but to learn the whys and hows of machine shop work. He was a lifelong machinist professionally. His insights into the basics have served me well as I pursued the hobby. I found a hardbound copy of the first six books that now has well worn pages.

You should keep in mind that you are approaching this as a hobby, not as a money making proposition. There is money to be made by the hobbyist, but that takes experience and time to gain yet more experience. Keep it a hobby and take any work you are comfortable with, when asked.

.


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## synfinatic (Dec 3, 2020)

Winegrower said:


> Start thinking that you have a 0.5 car garage and go for it.



LOL.  Well I already have a 1.5 car garage since the motorcycle lift (see my avatar) is taking up one bay and the wife's car has never seen the inside of the garage.  While working on projects my car (BMW M2) tends to get kicked out to make room, but then it's back in once I've cleaned up.  Honestly, if it wasn't for the car the garage would be a disaster.



7milesup said:


> So I have a few thoughts, although I am officially just part of the peanut gallery.  There is a writer, Kurt Vonnegut that has somewhat inspired me because of this...“I don’t think being good at things is the point of doing them. I think you’ve got all these wonderful experiences with different skills, and that all teaches you things and makes you an interesting person, no matter how well you do them.”



Funny, you're the 2nd person I've read on the internet to quote that Vonnegut line this week.  It's definitely something that speaks to me.  But yeah, I've been lurking and reading the PM forums, doing lots of research and reading all of David Best's posts which are super informative.   Honestly, right now I'm trying to avoid discussing specific make/model of equipment because that seems like a whole different set of concerns.  That and honestly, I think I have a better understanding of my lathe needs vs mill needs right now.  But yeah... I figure make & models is probably best for another thread because I think that's a bit cart before the horse at this point.

So one thing I know about myself is that one of my key life skills is learning new skills.  Learning new programing languages, Fusion360 or designing electronic circuits and PCB design.  One of the big ways I've done this is by being aware of the fact that knowledge is often a pyramid: the less you know the less you realize you don't know- only after you start dipping your toe in does it often become obvious all the things you're missing.  I've often been able to choose projects which allow me to learn incrementally without getting stuck by running into a vertical learning curve.

I think right now my big concern is that I realize there is a huge difference between machining and fabricating some parts using sheets of aluminum using a dremel, hacksaw and drill press.  But watching various videos on the internet (This Old Tony, Blondihacks, etc) has me realizing that yeah, gonna need at least a lathe and a mill.  I think I can probably punt on the welder (at least as long as my neighbor is willing to do it for me).



mksj said:


> I will add one more must have machine to your pile, which is a metal band saw, w/o that how are you going to rough cut all your metal. Consider a PM-712G Horizontal/Vertical or Jet HVBS-710SG 7 x 10.5 Miter Band Saw to holiday buying spree. I have the Enco/MSC version 712G and it works decently, but if I were to do it again I would go with the Jet Swivel head which is much better for doing miters and such. Jet is running a year end rebate until the end of the year, so this model will come in at just over 2K delivered with the rebate. Mine has coolant, if I do a lot of cutting I use it, if infrequent I run dry with a good blade and manually apply some cutting oil for steel.



Hi Mark- been reading a lot of your posts too.   I probably need to talk to you about VFD's at some point. So yeah, oofff I sorta was aware of that but hadn't really thought it through.  No doubt cutting parts with a hack saw is gonna get old pretty fast.  Honestly, I don't think I was thinking of dropping $2k on a bandsaw and I probably need to think about where I'm going to put it.   I haven't done any real research on them and really have no idea what the difference is between a $1200 model and one which costs nearly twice the price.

Anyways, band saw is a great example of not-knowing what I don't know... or at least not connecting the dots in my head.  Thank you.


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 3, 2020)

I would start with the lathe first. See if you like the path you are taking and then as you develop the interests you will make better choices when it comes to the Mill and Welder.

Keep in mind that with the Lathe as well as the Mill the actual machine is only a small part of the list of tooling that will be required to actually make use of them. That too will depend on what you plan to do with it. But I can tell you that once you start, you will start to see the path and making the right choice will become easier.

Last bit of info, I like heavy machines, they are built to last a life time or two. They can be rebuilt many times, so don't shy away from used. Since you have little experience, ask your neighbor to check out any lathes or mills for you to ensure you won't have any major issues. Unless one of your hobbies is going to be rebuilding the machine you buy. Also with used equipment, you can often get them with a lot of tooling that you would otherwise have to buy with a new piece of equipment.


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## 7milesup (Dec 3, 2020)

Mark had some excellent points, my only disagreement, or should I say, alternative view is the bandsaw.  I have a Harbor Freight 4x6 bandsaw.  Probably one of the most common small bandsaws out there.  With their 20% coupon it is a real good value.  Many mods out there on the internet for it too.  --->HF 4x6 Metal Bandsaw<--- There are some other options that are bigger... Northern tool has a 7x12 bandsaw that goes on sale every now and again for about $900. I almost pulled the trigger a couple of months ago but decided I was getting by with my HF 4x6. --->Northern Tool 7x12<---  It is currently on sale but only $50 off.  Sometimes I think that a lot of this stuff is made in the same factory but not always the case.  For example, I just bought a used Jet wood shaper, but would like a bigger one.  Thinking that the Shop Fox might be good, I started to closely examine the fence system.  Turns out the Jet had a much better design than the Shop Fox.  Obviously you are smart enough to look closely at the differences.  My money would go to the Northern Tool.
I see PC just replied above me.  He has good advice about taking someone along to check a used machine over.  I was going to buy a good used but gave up after a year of looking.  In the next 5 or so years, I have seen exactly 2 used lathes that I would have liked to purchase but missed them.  Most recently was a beautiful LeBlond Regal servo shift for $4500.  I had the intention to drive right over to MSP to buy it but when I called, they were already loading it onto some guys trailer.  I will probably never find one like that in the foreseeable future.


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## mksj (Dec 3, 2020)

There are less expensive band saw options, The Northern Tools is quite expensive when you factor in it is a belt drive and expensive shipping. Many people get by with a smaller HF for under $300. The Jet price is inclusive of shipping, they have a belt version for a bit less. The PM-712 you may save some on shipping with a package deal. I prefer a gear drive because it is more compact and easier to change speeds. If you do mitering, the Jet swivel is more compact and a better overall design. They may all look alike but there are significant differences. On the band saw also check local stores, Craigslist, there are also some discounted ones that may have superficial damage. Just watch out for the shipping costs on machinery, typically anything over 1500 lbs cannot be placed on a lift gate for delivery. Other's have paid big $ for local riggers to delivery machines from the freight terminal.

I previously had my knee mill, PM-1340GT, band saw, table saw, miter saw and a full length garage work area with cabinets in a single garage bay. It was tight, the 1340GT and knee mill were the only two machines that didn't get moved out of the garage to use. Welding would be big issue in such a tight space, and there are also house insurance ramifications if you plan to do welding on the premises.


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## synfinatic (Dec 3, 2020)

addertooth said:


> I went Lathe, then wire Welder (to make the table for the Mill) and then the Mill.  But then, mixed in I also purchased metal cutting bandsaw (horizontal and vertical modes), engine hoist for lifting the mill, and a 12 ton press. I already had a belt sander, Grinder and drill press.



Oh a shop press... yeah another thing to add to the list. 



macardoso said:


> Personally, I'd say get the lathe, then learn what you need out of a mill. Usually easier to find a guy who can weld than do machining.
> 
> Lathe is easy, bigger is better usually. Mill is a bit more complex. Are you mostly drilling holes, doing big facing cuts, or do you need CNC for complex work?



For the mill... "i don't know" is an honest answer.  I'm not going to use it for production work so big cuts are relative.  I definitely plan on starting with a manual mill & DRO (and probably X/Z drives) and CNC is a definite maybe, but definitely not a near term thing.  Originally, I was thinking of just getting a lathe and skip the mill and then I was watching some This Old Tony videos on making tool holders and I'm "oh, yeah right... a mill is super useful to compliment a lathe."   Mentally, I have a better understanding of what a vertical mill is capable of (especially with DRO and a rotary table) and I'm constantly amazed what is possible with a lathe... "wow, I had no idea that was even possible!"  so I don't have a good idea just how far I can reasonably push things.   That said I totally get that the lathe can do everything a mill can... just certain operations are a lot easier on one or the other.  But yeah, certain things are just going to be a lot more accurate on one than the other.   Part of me wants to spend a year building a matrix of which is better for different kinds of cuts, but I'd be better off just learning with my hands by doing.



mickri said:


> Make a list of everything you want and start looking.  Check things off of the list as you get them.  It really doesn't matter which comes first.  You are going to want it all any way.  And don't be in a hurry.  Unless you have the budget to buy new be prepared to go on lots of wild goose chases looking at worn out machines not worth buying.  Don't forget to add the cost of tooling in your budget.  Tooling up a lathe and mill can easily exceed what you paid for the lathe or mill.  That is one advantage to buying used.  It will often come with lots of tooling.  I looked for over a year before I found my mill/drill and lathe.  I found the mill first and then a couple of weeks later I found the lathe.  Estate sales can be a good source to find a lightly used well taken care machine at fair prices.  Often the family is just wanting to get rid of grandpa's junk.
> 
> You are very lucky to have a neighbor and a friend who are machinists.  A lot of us have nothing more than the internet to guide us. Talk to them about your plans.  They will most likely know somebody with a machine just gathering dust that can be had for a song just to get it out of their shop.  And if you run into a problem you can run across the street to get some help.



Unfortunately, here in the Bay Area there's doesn't seem to be a lot of good options for used from what I've seen and I honestly am not really qualified to figure out what is a good deal vs. a disaster.   There's also the fact that while there are used machines available, most of it is far far too large and heavy or it's some estate sale and a really old machine with a bunch of limitations that I'd find really annoying (like lots of change gears for metric threads).   If money was tighter I'd look harder, but new is viable option for me.  Hoping I might be able to find some deals on tooling though.


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## MrWhoopee (Dec 3, 2020)

First off, let me quote the popular phrase "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". My point is that once you have the tool, you discover so many more uses for it than you imagined before.

Second, get the lathe. You can fake a lot of things that you would do on a mill, you just can't fake lathe work. 

Third, watch the Craigslist ads section. I'm constantly posting interesting things and the Bay Area is within my search range. We also have members nearby that might be willing to assist in evaluating a machine. Enabling is really what we do best.


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## Mitch Alsup (Dec 3, 2020)

I got my Mill (G0730) and my Lathe (G4003G) at the same time.

I used the mill much more often than the lathe when building my telescope (below) and found the mental processes to use a manual mill more difficult than when using the lathe.


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 3, 2020)

It all comes down to what you are willing to spend.  Do you have ~25-30k you want/plan to spend?  Buy it all now.  Most people, even if we can afford to buy everything end up buying one at a time.  That makes it harder, especially if you know you eventually want it all.  For me, buying nicer, more capable machines one at a time makes more sense than more machines at once at the cost of even a little less capability.

Conventional thinking is that a lathe is the queen of the shop.  But if you get a dividing head, you can do a lot of things on a mill that you might otherwise do on a lathe.  A dividing head costs ~ 1/5th of a lathe or less, and can probably get you through till you buy the lathe.  So that's likely the way I will go.  (but I still vacillate).  I askedTom from Oxtools what he thought, and I though his response was very telling.  He said, "Buy whichever one you get the better deal on first.  You're going to want both.  Don't pass up a steal on a mill waiting for a lathe, or vice versa."

So it comes down to what do you want to do?  What's your largest anticipated project?   A lot can be done on a 12x36 lathe.  How much more can you do on a 13x40 or 14x40?  Probably (except for 4 inches of length) not a whole lot more.  But you can do it faster with more aggressive cuts on a heavier machine.  Personally, I wouldn't go smaller than a 12x36.  I will probably go with the PM 1340GT, since it is hard for me to justify the extra 4k for the 1440... but the foot break, 2 inch bore, extra weight of the 1440 is pretty sweet.  Of course, if you want the creme' dela creme' the TL series is hard to beat.  Only another $5k... you see how it goes.

For Mills, a large format desktop mill like the PM 833 mill, is very capable, and probably all most people actually need. But it isn't a knee mill and if you plan on larger / heavier projects, a knee mill gives you just a bit larger envelope, more table space and more mass to absorb vibration. PM's 949T are pretty nice, but if you do decide on a knee mill, since you are in California, I would take a strong look at the ACRA mills. I don't have one, but have heard very good things about them, even from people who own PM Mills.

As for welding, it's a much lower price concern. A Lincoln 215MT gives you MIG, stick and DC TIG for about $1500 - much less than your lathe and mills will cost. You can do Aluminum with MIG with pure Argon and the right wire, and MIG is a lot easier to learn than TIG.|

You will want something to cut your stock, and ultimately that will be a band saw.  But a portable HF bandsaw can stand you in good stead for at least a little while.


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## mickri (Dec 3, 2020)

I use  SearchTempest: Search all of Craigslist nationwide & more  for searching on Craigslist.  It is very easy to use and will search all of CL within the mileage range you select.


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## 7milesup (Dec 3, 2020)

mickri said:


> I use  SearchTempest: Search all of Craigslist nationwide & more  for searching on Craigslist.  It is very easy to use and will search all of CL within the mileage range you select.


Can you log in so you get notifications?  I don't see an option to make an account.


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## mickri (Dec 3, 2020)

I have never tried to do that.   When you do a search there is a "get alerts" button in the upper right corner.  Do not know how that works.  I personally don't like getting notifications.  Notifications just clutter up my email inbox.


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## synfinatic (Dec 4, 2020)

Mitch Alsup said:


> I got my Mill (G0730) and my Lathe (G4003G) at the same time.
> 
> I used the mill much more often than the lathe when building my telescope (below) and found the mental processes to use a manual mill more difficult than when using the lathe.



Beautiful scope Mitch.   Honestly, I don't have much interest in building a scope from scratch right now, but I do find myself 3d printing various adapters, mounts and other custom bits as well as simple things like extension tubes and what not.  I'd wager it would be 50/50 mill vs. lathe, but nothing really large unless I ever made a custom mount for my Celestron EdgeHD 8".  I can see myself making a nicer mirror cell for my 12.5" Zambuto than what is stock in my Starmaster ETL, but I really wonder if it would be worth it.  Living in San Jose, CA my biggest problem by far is light pollution, not mirror support.  Anyways, there are plenty of other, smaller, more reasonable project I can see doing like a fancy tracker for a DSLR for wide field.



ArmyDoc said:


> It all comes down to what you are willing to spend.  Do you have ~25-30k you want/plan to spend?  Buy it all now.  Most people, even if we can afford to buy everything end up buying one at a time.  That makes it harder, especially if you know you eventually want it all.  For me, buying nicer, more capable machines one at a time makes more sense than more machines at once at the cost of even a little less capability.
> 
> Conventional thinking is that a lathe is the queen of the shop.  But if you get a dividing head, you can do a lot of things on a mill that you might otherwise do on a lathe.  A dividing head costs ~ 1/5th of a lathe or less, and can probably get you through till you buy the lathe.  So that's likely the way I will go.  (but I still vacillate).  I askedTom from Oxtools what he thought, and I though his response was very telling.  He said, "Buy whichever one you get the better deal on first.  You're going to want both.  Don't pass up a steal on a mill waiting for a lathe, or vice versa."
> 
> ...



LOL.  Yeah so easy to go "just a little bigger" and end up paying nearly 2x as much.  I remember when I first started looking at lathes a few years ago I figured "oh the PM-1022 would be really nice!" and then I thought about maybe going big for the PM-1030.  LOL.  Then I started understanding things better like the importance of weight, how DC motors work at lower RPM, bore size, gear boxes/change gears and more things got more complicated. 

It's also a big reason why I haven't pulled the trigger on buying anything because it's taken me a long time to get a sense for what I need and how numbers on a spec sheet translate into capabilities.  Things like weight (more is better, but how much is _enough_?), DC vs. AC, geared vs. VFD and how 40" between centers doesn't mean you'll be able to turn something 40" long, but I still don't know if I _need_ 40" or 36 is enough?  But I've mentally settled on the 1340GT because "well it's not that much more than the 1236T" and I just can't really imaging stepping up to the 1440.  I guess if I ever need something that big at least I figure I'll be a lot more knowledgeable by then and maybe can start looking at used gear.

Sadly there aren't any simple answers.   Or the importance of Z clearance on a mill once you add a vise and a chuck or how Y becomes such a limiting factor (and 1" shorter with DRO).  And the fact is I don't really have an idea of my upper bound for what I want to do- other than I know I'll never go "pro".  This is and will always be a hobby for me.  I don't think I'll ever need to mill a custom aluminum airbox for my motorcycle, but I do plan on fully 3d printing one (I currently have a 60% hacked OEM ABS plastic, 30% 3d printed PETG and 10% fiberglass).  Something like that would either need to be done on a noticeably larger mill than I have planned or multiple parts.

Honestly, $25-30K sounds like a lot of money.  But I'm still young (at least at heart), so its probably like $500-1000/year for the rest of my life.   Also my wife and I enclosed the breeze-way between the house and garage to give me that extra 0.5 car of space and ran the 100A circuit (also for electric car charger) and that frankly was more then what I'm budgeting for this right now.  (I really wanted a 3 car garage when we bought a house, but sometimes we gotta make compromises right?)


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## synfinatic (Dec 4, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> First off, let me quote the popular phrase "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". My point is that once you have the tool, you discover so many more uses for it than you imagined before.
> 
> Second, get the lathe. You can fake a lot of things that you would do on a mill, you just can't fake lathe work.
> 
> Third, watch the Craigslist ads section. I'm constantly posting interesting things and the Bay Area is within my search range. We also have members nearby that might be willing to assist in evaluating a machine. Enabling is really what we do best.



So I'm honestly haven't been watching craigslist religiously to say, but I'd definitely be curious to hear more... what kinds of "interesting" things are you seeing?  When I do look I don't see much.  Right now a lathe with a short headstock and spider for gunsmithing isn't something I need right now- it's something for "later".   Also the 1340GT doesn't have a spider, but I figure that would be a good project.  But not swapping change gears every time I do metric threads is a big deal for me since I would be interested in doing a LOT of metric and that seems to preclude a lot of older stuff I see on craigslist while the newer stuff is much larger than I really have space for.


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## synfinatic (Dec 4, 2020)

mksj said:


> Do a basic VFD control or go RPC



VFD I get.  Lets you take 240V AC single phase like I have and convert it into 3 phase AC and get variable speed as a bonus.  Requires a 3 phase motor, which without VFD would just be a single speed.  Apparently some motors are better than others when running variable speed.  It's not perfect, because you loose horsepower at low RPM, but _HP = torque x RPM _and torque at low RPM for AC motors is generally at max as I understand it.  I totally get that this can still cause problems for doing large drill cuts in steel for example though.

This was the first I've heard of RPC on this forum.  I've since done some searches here on "RPC" and I get a lot of hits which talk about RPC in context of motors, but I'm still confused what it is and how it might be different from a single speed AC motor or VFD driven motor?   In my world of computers, RPC stands for "remote procedure call" and I'm pretty sure that's not it.


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## mksj (Dec 4, 2020)

The 1340GT (Norton Gear box) have no change gears for imperial threads, but will have change gears to do metric and also for different metric thread pitches. If you want a gear table they have been previous posted or I can send it to you. You need a universal gearbox not to have change gears for both imperial and metric threads, so you would be looking at the ERL-1340, PM-1440TL (RML, TRL versions), Grizzly G0509G,  PM-1440GS has one change gear but hasn't been available for many months. You need to give up a few things to be in the price range you want.

Some people have big shops with multiple 3 phase machines and use an RPC, single machine people usually go with a VFD. You use a VFD typically in the 30-90 Hz range with stock motors. Basically you can convert the lathe over to a single belt speed instead of two. Power has never been an issue, just use a lower gear and rev up the VFD.

You make your own spider for the 11340/1440GT.


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## synfinatic (Dec 4, 2020)

@mksj : Yep, I was aware of the Norton change gears for metric.  3 different settings for pretty much everything under the sun and many of the settings support overlapping thread values.  It's not perfect, but as you say, I'd have to step up to something bigger/more expensive to avoid it- although not sure what the ERL-1340 is?  Sounds like it was something PM used to sell?  But yeah, have to draw the line somewhere.

Also, the Norton gearbox / spindle is probably only good for 2000RPM (maybe a bit more for short duration?) since it is a splash oil system instead of a bath it sounds like?   From what I gather though, that's probably fine 99% of the time.  I mean, don't get me wrong- I'd like the nicest/best options I can get... just that size and cost matter a lot.  I'll never turn a profit on these machines, but that doesn't mean I need to maximize my losses. 

I've  seen a few designs for spiders for various PM lathes. Some of them even seem like something a newbie might even try.   I assume that is a hall sensor to measure spindle speed?


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 4, 2020)

The ERL-1340 is a Sunmaster lathe - https://www.sunmaster-cnc.com/pro-erl-series-all-gear-head-lathe.html
I think Matt can import them for you.  But I haven't found a published price for one anywhere.  They all want you to call for price (lord I hate that!)  So, if you find out how much they are, please let me know.  I expect it to be more than the 1340GT, but if is less than the 1440GT, I will seriousely look at it.  1440GT is too much for me to justify (hell, the 1340GT probably SHOULD be more than I can justify...  but isn't!  )  But with a 9 inch bed width, heavier mass and universal gear box, I might be willing to strech a bit more for the ERL when the time comes...


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## 7milesup (Dec 4, 2020)

I am not sure about your assessment there Doc.  PM had, or has and ERL-1340.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/erl-1340.39331/


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## mksj (Dec 4, 2020)

The Sunmaster manual Lathes have different names depending on who they are distributed by. In the US, for some odd reason the ERL-1340 is rebranded by some distributors like Kent and is called the TRL-1340. The Sunmaster TRL series only come in larger versions, 1440, 1640, 1660 which are around 3400 lbs, and have a much larger spindle (D1-6). There is also a mid sized version between the ERL and TRL called the RML. QMT/PM sells the TRL (1440TL), the TL has a 2.55" bore and is a monster. The ERL1340 is a D1-4 with a 1.56" bore and is around 2300 lbs. Kent and Acra sell their versions but also play games with alphabet soup, but they are all versions of the Sunmaster lathes which are very well made. The Kent RML-1440 is between the two with a 2.1" spindle bore, I would go with the larger spindle bore of the TRL and not the RML. I have the ERL-1340, I had all my D1-4 chucks and tooling from my 1340GT and did not want to have to replace it all if I went with the 1440TL, if you are not tooled up and can manage the weight of the 1440TL it is a huge step up in rigidity and fit/finish. That being said, there is nothing that the ERL-1340 can do that can't be done on the 1340GT, just might take longer with the latter. 

The ERL/RML/TRL all have universal gearboxes which was one of the reasons I upgraded from my 1340GT, the only change gear is for DP threads. It is a very solid lathe, it can handle much heavier work with quicker stock removal. I know a couple of people that have these lathes, they have all been spot on with regard to alignment and tolerances from the factory. The TRL also has a one piece cast iron base which can be lifted with a fork lift, the ERL is lifted from its bed.









						ERL-1340 Lathe VFD Control System and Additions
					

Ordered an ERL-1340 last year to replace my PM-1340GT that I had for 6 years. I was moving and I felt it was "easier" to sell the 1340GT and order an ERL-1340 through QMT to be delivered to my new address. It took about 4 months to get the lathe in and then setup delivery. Due to the weight of...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				











						Buy TRL-1340/V Manual Precision Lathes - Kent Industrial USA
					

Heaviest duty 13” lathe in its class  5 HP main spindle motor  16 speeds, geared headstock (TRL-1340) (50 – 2570 RPM)  Infinitely variable speed in Hi/Low geared speed ranges (TRL-1340V) (100-500-3000 RPM)  Jog button for easy gear changes  Hardened and ground gears and bedways  Cast iron...




					www.kentusa.com
				











						Kent TRL-1340 13 x 40 Geared Head Lathe   | eBay
					

We are an authorized distributor for Kent products. Swing 13-3/8. Swing over crosslide 8-1/4. Swing over gap 20. Thread chasing dial. Cast Iron machined bedways and base. Foot brake. Follow Rest.



					www.ebay.com


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 4, 2020)

7milesup said:


> I am not sure about your assessment there Doc.  PM had, or has and ERL-1340.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/erl-1340.39331/


Not sure what you mean.  PM can get them, as the thread you referenced showed - they may even have them in stock, but they don't list them on their web page.  The sunmaster ERL-1340 is the same lathe, and you can look at the specs on their site though.  That's why I posted the link.  Did I miss something?


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## Aaron_W (Dec 4, 2020)

7milesup said:


> So I have a few thoughts, although I am officially just part of the peanut gallery. There is a writer, Kurt Vonnegut that has somewhat inspired me because of this...“I don’t think being good at things is the point of doing them. I think you’ve got all these wonderful experiences with different skills, and that all teaches you things and makes you an interesting person, no matter how well you do them.”



I've not run across this quote before but I like it. I've always followed the Jack of all trades mold. I learn enough to get my current project done, but don't usually put the time in to get really good at any of it.



synfinatic said:


> It's hard to justify a few grand (or more) worth of equipment to make a $20 part once or twice a month. Logically, this makes no sense really.



I think this pretty much sums up this hobby for many of us. It isn't about saving money, it is mostly about being able to make it yourself. There is no logic to it. There are a few who do make some money or at least legitimately save some money with their machines, but I'd guess most will never come close to having their machines pay for themselves.

Personally I'd put a decent MIG welder high on my priorities. It wasn't my first purchase but I have found it super useful, and of all the machines it is the one that seems to do the least trivial work. Sure I could still probably buy a lot of the things I weld up, but not as good, sometimes not as cheap and almost never as exact to my purpose as making it myself. It really is a very manly hot glue gun.  

Between the lathe and the mill, I'd go lathe first for a couple of reasons. The main one is it is easier to learn. A lathe is basically a 2 axis operation, where a mill is 3 axis plus some other added complexity (knee and spindle movement, head tilt, nod, swing etc). I also find the mill has a lot more specialized tooling available. I have quite a few lathe tools that also fit my mill, but not much goes from the mill to the lathe. I also think it is easier to do simple milling operations on a lathe, than it is to do simple lathe operations on a mill.

Get all three at the same time? I can see the appeal of buying a lathe and a mill as a package, but waiting does have some benefits. Two big ones being, after you have spent some time making stuff on the lathe, you may have a different idea of what you really want from a mill. Maybe you find you don't want something as big as a Bridgeport, or maybe you really do but you are stuck with the big bench mill that seemed like a good idea at the time. Maybe you find this machining thing really isn't your thing, and holding off on the mill means one less machine to sell. 

I also think a lathe is easier to pick out, figure out the size you think will be right, and find the best one that fits your budget. There are a lot fewer options with a lathe, basically, size, power and quality. 

Mills you have many more things to consider, vertical bench mills (head goes up and down), vertical knee mills (knee goes up and down), horizontal mills, vertical / horizontal mills (mostly people decide between a vertical bench mill or a vertical knee mill, but you may find yourself wanting a horizontal mill for some reason). Then you have spindle travel to consider, head tilt, and nod, the ability to swing the head, or a fixed head (most stable, but less versatile). There are also a billion used Bridgeport mills out there, so waiting until you can find a decent deal on a good one is another consideration. 


We won't even go down the rabbit hole of shapers, die filers, surface grinders, engravers or the other things you will begin to covet once the lathe gives you a little taste and takes you past the gateway.


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## 7milesup (Dec 4, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> Not sure what you mean.  PM can get them, as the thread you referenced showed - they may even have them in stock, but they don't list them on their web page.  The sunmaster ERL-1340 is the same lathe, and you can look at the specs on their site though.  That's why I posted the link.  Did I miss something?



My mistake and apologies there Doc.  I looked at the website from your link and for some reason thought it was a CNC lathe.  Turns out Sunmaster CNC is the website.  Apparently I was not fully engaged with my coffee yet.


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 4, 2020)

7milesup said:


> My mistake and apologies there Doc.  I looked at the website from your link and for some reason thought it was a CNC lathe.  Turns out Sunmaster CNC is the website.  Apparently I was not fully engaged with my coffee yet.



Lol.  Been there done that, got the t-shirt!


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 4, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I think this pretty much sums up this hobby for many of us. It isn't about saving money, it is mostly about being able to make it yourself. There is no logic to it. There are a few who do make some money or at least legitimately save some money with their machines, but I'd guess most will never come close to having their machines pay for themselves.



Gettin' the hobby to pay for itself is like an accountant I used to know... He used to say, "You can deduct that, you just have to phrase it right."  (He's in jail now, but that's a different story...)

To get a hobby to pay for it self you have to look at what it saves you.  For example,  I paid for my shotgun by recognizing that it saved me a whole lot compaired to playing golf.  Since I suck at golf, it was obviouse that I should buy a nice shotgun and switch sports.  The price of equipment's the about same, but skeets much less  expensive than playing golf.  Heck, the gun practically pay for it self!
(This is where my wife usually chimes in to point out I had already bought the golf clubs, and that I neither play golf nor go shoot skeet.  But that's entirely beside the point.  The point is my shotgun paid for it self in savings compared to golf.  That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!)


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## Just for fun (Dec 4, 2020)

I already own three welders, a Mig, a Tig and a Buzz box that seems to just be taking up unused space.   I'm pretty good with the Mig, and still learning on the Tig but having fun. 

My plan is once I get my Hot Rod moving under its own power, I'm planning on buying a lathe and a mill at the same time.  Now that may change between now and when that time comes, but that is the current plan. 

Tim


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## synfinatic (Dec 5, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> Gettin' the hobby to pay for itself is like an accountant I used to know... He used to say, "You can deduct that, you just have to phrase it right."  (He's in jail now, but that's a different story...)
> 
> To get a hobby to pay for it self you have to look at what it saves you. For example, I paid for my shotgun by recognizing that it saved me a whole lot compaired to playing golf. Since I suck at golf, it was obviouse that I should buy a nice shotgun and switch sports. The price of equipment's the about same, but skeets much less expensive than playing golf. Heck, the gun practically pay for it self!
> (This is where my wife usually chimes in to point out I had already bought the golf clubs, and that I neither play golf nor go shoot skeet. But that's entirely beside the point. The point is my shotgun paid for it self in savings compared to golf. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!)



LOL.  I know what you mean.  My CPA tried to convince me I should buy some property in an industrialized zone for a work shop and then figure out a way to make it a "business expense".  But at least for me, I wanted to be able to walk to my shop and not drive to it even if from a tax perspective it makes more sense to do the latter.

My wife and I have an agreement: I don't say anything about how many shoes she has and she doesn't complain about my guns.   So far at least I seem to have come out on the better end of that deal.  At least she hasn't yet suggested we remodel the house to make the closet bigger so she could pull an Imelda Marcos yet. 

Anyways, thanks to everyone for your thoughts and helping me spend my money (dunno about you, but spending other people's money is so much fun!  )    Seems like I need to start cleaning the garage and figuring out my storage and workspace needs a bit so I can make sure I have room for a lathe, mill and band saw.  Also really need to get my dirt bike idling properly so I can sell it to make more room.


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