# Mill Search



## ACHiPo (Nov 23, 2017)

I've been looking for a mill off and on for the past few months to complement my Logan 816 lathe.  My shop strategy to accommodate woodworking, metalworking, and auto repair is mobility--everything except my woodworking workbench is on wheels.  The desire for mobility combined with the fact that I don't see myself machining anything too heavy or big to lift by myself makes me think a big bench machine or smaller Euro or 3/4 knee mills would be a good fit for my needs.

I was in Germany last week and saw Deckels on display at a museum and really liked the size and flexibility.  Trying to find one for a reasonable price is another matter.  Before checking out Deckels, I'd pretty much narrowed it down to a PM 833T bench mill or a PM 835 knee mill.  Yesterday a colleague gave me a tour of their lab at work and they had a little Tormach.  I hadn't considered a CNC, but the Tormach seemed pretty easy to use in manual mode as well as CNC-mode.  At first I thought the Tormach was quite the bargain--then I started configuring a system the way I'd like it, and quickly the price climbed above $10k.

I've seen all the recommendations to "go as big as you can", but I want something that I can learn on, and can be pushed aside when I want to work on my car or build something out of wood.

Anyone else intrigued with CNC?  I don't know CAD, so something like the Tormach that is intuitive and easy to use without CAD/CAM would be good.  I've also read about Charter Oak making a decent CNC, still north of $10k, which seems like a lot of money for a hobby machine.

Any guidance or suggestions would be welcome.


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## Mitch Alsup (Nov 23, 2017)

The real question is:
a) do you want a mill that "you make parts on",
or
b) do you want a mill that "makes parts by itself"

I wanted a), and after some investigation, and some talking with experienced machinists, I found out the knee is a very important feature of a mill used where you, the operator, are making parts, but not very important when the mill is making the parts.

Old saying: "The quill is for drilling, the knee is for milling."

There are a <small> number of knee mills between $3K and $4K which are evolutions of Rockwell and Clausing mill architecture, the 6×26 have a compressed area between the spindle and the bed compared to the 8×30 versions of the same architecture. These are missing a few of the features of the larger machines but are eminently useable. The smaller of them is in the 650 pound category, the later in the 1000 pound category. Neither is small enough to push "over into a corner" unless you mount it on casters.


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## ezduzit (Nov 23, 2017)

You do not want light weight in a mill.


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## richl (Nov 23, 2017)

Ram head and knee, and weighs more than 1000 lbs. Hard to tell what type of head the 835 has. That's what I would look for anyway


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## ACHiPo (Nov 23, 2017)

ezduzit said:


> You do not want light weight in a mill.


Agreed.  The question is the definition of light.  I don’t consider any of the mills I’m looking at “light”—all of the machines are well north of 1k lbs.  They are not Bridgeport-heavy, I’ll grant you that.


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## ACHiPo (Nov 23, 2017)

richl said:


> Ram head and knee, and weighs more than 1000 lbs. Hard to tell what type of head the 835 has. That's what I would look for anyway


The 835 has a made-in-Taiwan Bridgeport style ram head.


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## richl (Nov 23, 2017)

If they are in the 1500lbs-2000lbs range and 1-2 hp, more is always better. That is a nice place, you can mill aluminium very easily, and harder metals being just a tad bit more conservative. I'm not sure if you have head nod capabilities, I don't on my mill, it is not crucial, it helps.
Out of the 2 mentioned, I'd get the pm835.


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## ACHiPo (Nov 23, 2017)

Mitch Alsup said:


> The real question is:
> a) do you want a mill that "you make parts on",
> or
> b) do you want a mill that "makes parts by itself"
> ...


Mitch,
Thanks.  I want to make parts.  I never thought I’d want a CNC, but I’m reconsidering after seeing the Tormach in action.  The demo of the Tormach impressed me with how easy it was to use manually.  I don’t know CAD, and thought that was a requirement for CNC, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with Tormach’s software.  There are a lot of Tormach haters on Practical Machinist, but the lack of used machines makes me think the people that have them like them.

I still like the look and size of the Euro machines— they seem perfect for my needs—but I’m definitely contemplating a CNC now.

How important is cooling/cutting fluid on milling machines—is it just for heavy cuts?  The CNCs seem to be really messy with flood or mist cooling on most operations.  I was kinda hoping to just use a little mineral spirits or alcohol for Al, and nothing for steel.

Evan


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## T Bredehoft (Nov 23, 2017)

There are two reasons to consider CNC, 1) production and 2) playing.  If you're only making one, it's generally quicker manually, as opposed to CNC. This does require DROs, and you do MNC, Manual Numeric Control.  Spend your money on a mill, not on a mill with CNC. Unless you just want to play.


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## ACHiPo (Nov 23, 2017)

T Bredehoft said:


> There are two reasons to consider CNC, 1) production and 2) playing.  If you're only making one, it's generally quicker manually, as opposed to CNC. This does require DROs, and you do MNC, Manual Numeric Control.  Spend your money on a mill, not on a mill with CNC. Unless you just want to play.


Busted!  The ‘play’ factor is definitely a thing.  This is, after all a hobby, and I think I might like to learn CAD as long as I could make parts without knowing it.


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## richl (Nov 23, 2017)

Fussion360 is free for noncommercial use. It's one way to get your feet wet before spending the money. Others go the diy route and purchase benchmills and cnc them. Its alot cheaper, but you need to learn alot of different things.


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## ACHiPo (Nov 23, 2017)

richl said:


> Fussion360 is free for noncommercial use. It's one way to get your feet wet before spending the money. Others go the diy route and purchase benchmills and cnc them. Its alot cheaper, but you need to learn alot of different things.


I definitely don’t want to build a CNC.  I don’t mind learning CAD, but I have no desire to build the controls and I suspect the programming language for DIY CNC is less than intuitive.


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## Eddyde (Nov 23, 2017)

It is indeed a lot to consider, cost, space, features, quality and the kind of parts you want to make. I've been going through a similar process as I put my shop together. The space killers are the wood working machines, especially the table saw. I am doing wheels on a lot of things but feel the table saw, mill and lathe should be stationary.  I think the "buy the biggest mill you can fit and afford" comes from many who had first bought small then, after a short while, wanted more... I do think it make sense if you think you might want to "eventually" work on bigger projects...

I have a manual mill that I was to eventually convert to CNC, or I might just get a used CNC mill and upgrade the controls/electronics, as a second mill. The DIY software is not so primitive, check out Mach 3 & 4.


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## ezduzit (Nov 23, 2017)

unsubscribed.


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## ACHiPo (Nov 23, 2017)

ezduzit said:


> unsubscribed.


Thanks for sharing


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## mksj (Nov 24, 2017)

Really comes down to what you want to make at the end of the day and how much you will be using it. My understanding is that the the used Tormach market, they sell very quickly with very little depreciation. On CNC, you would need some form of chip evacuation and coolant system to achieve the speed and finish. Otherwise you will just be regrinding chips and probably burning up the end mills. You do not want to be poking around the cuter head when it is moving.  This dictates a more dedicated enclosure and space. I have used a Bridgeport style CNC in manual, and it works just fine, but either you are going to be spending a lot more or have an older used CNC mill that may no longer be supported, nor interface with software.

If you where to go with a 833 or 835, you would be at a much lower entry cost level. If you got the CNC bug at a later point you could get a smaller benchtop mill to convert, or concider the entry level Tormach.


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## ACHiPo (Nov 24, 2017)

mksj said:


> Really comes down to what you want to make at the end of the day and how much you will be using it. My understanding is that the the used Tormach market, they sell very quickly with very little depreciation. On CNC, you would need some form of chip evacuation and coolant system to achieve the speed and finish. Otherwise you will just be regrinding chips and probably burning up the end mills. You do not want to be poking around the cuter head when it is moving.  This dictates a more dedicated enclosure and space. I have used a Bridgeport style CNC in manual, and it works just fine, but either you are going to be spending a lot more or have an older used CNC mill that may no longer be supported, nor interface with software.
> 
> If you where to go with a 833 or 835, you would be at a much lower entry cost level. If you got the CNC bug at a later point you could get a smaller benchtop mill to convert, or concider the entry level Tormach.


MK,
Great advice.  Thanks!

I need to learn more about chip evacuation--I'm not crazy about the idea of dealing with coolants spraying all over the inside of the enclosure.  I suppose it may not be that big of a deal, but it just looks like a mess to me, and given the multi-purpose of my space I like the idea of just sweeping up oily chips better.
Evan


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## talvare (Nov 24, 2017)

Evan,
I just got into hobby machining about six years ago and kind of went through all of the brain wrenching exercises that you're going through now, so I'll just give you my two cents worth about what I wanted and ended up with. I definitely had an interest in learning to do some CNC work but didn't want a long, steep learning curve. I also knew that I definitely wanted a machine that was fully capable of manual operation. I also knew I wanted a "full size" machine, so what I ultimately ended up buying was a 2 axis BP EZ Trak mill. By today's CNC standards, the EZ Trak is antiquated but it is still a very capable machine and the beauty is that it has many "canned" functions that make many CNC operations relatively easy because you don't have to write code for those functions. It does also have a lot more capability if you want to write a program for something that can't be done solely with the "canned" functions. Most of my machining is done manually, but it sure is nice to use the CNC functions when I want to mill a circle, arc, curve, etc., etc. and I don't have to set up my 100+ lb. rotary table to do it. Since I don't use my machines every day, and write programs only a few times a year, I find that each time I have to write a program, it is a re-learning experience, so I am very happy that I chose a machine with a relatively simple CNC learning curve. Just some food for thought.

As a side note, I have seen your posts on the Cobra forums, so we apparently have more than one hobby interest in common.

Ted


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## ACHiPo (Nov 24, 2017)

Ted,
We may have met at the BACC event in Paso Robles?

Thanks for the input.  So you have a full-sized Bridgeport and added the EZ Track 2D CNC?  Do you machine dry, or use coolant?


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## talvare (Nov 25, 2017)

Evan,
Yes, my mill is a full size Bridgeport and the EZ Trak was Bridgeport's CNC system for a period of time in the 1990's, so the mill was built by BP with CNC. The main point I was trying to make is that if you're not using the CNC on a regular basis, your memory has to be a lot better than mine (which isn't saying much ) to be somewhat proficient at writing programming. That's why I like a CNC with a lot of basic "canned" functions that you don't have to write a program to do.

I typically machine dry. Once in a while I'll use WD-40 on aluminum. I usually use carbide tooling for machining steel and HSS for machining aluminum. On my lathe I do have flood coolant (although I do not use a water based coolant, I use Mobil 766 cutting oil).

I don't think we've met. I've just read your posts on two of the Cobra forums.

Ted


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## BGHansen (Nov 25, 2017)

I started with a new Grizzly Rong Fu clone 35 years ago, paid around $1400 for it with power feed (similar to the current G0760).  Upgraded to a used Jet JVM-830 knee mill about 30 years ago (similar to a Grizzly G0731 mill) for around $1500 as I recall.  Sold the Grizzly for $1000.  Upgraded the Jet with a 4-axis DRO for around $500 from TPACtools.com.  I could probably get my original $1500 out of it as it currently sets.  

A couple of months ago I bought a 1981 2HP Bridgeport Series 1 with a circa 1985 Anilam Crusader II 2-axis CNC control for $4000.  Mill is in fantastic shape, and the CNC is pretty simple to learn (like Ted's EZ Trak).  I didn't buy the mill because of the CNC, I bought it because of the quiet variable speed head, table with scraping still visible, Kurt swivel vise, phase converter, etc.  The CNC has been great!  As Ted mentioned above, I can't imagine putting my rotary table back on the mill as the CW and CCW arc routines are so simple to use.  I'd never used or seen CNC in action before; it's totally changing how I do things (albeit only 2-axis at this point).

I guess the point being, if you buy something new and decide to upgrade at some point, you'll get a good chunk of your money back if you decide to sell.  If you buy used and don't abuse the mill, you'll get out of it what you put into it.  I you get something with more features that you intended to have, you'll use them.  I don't think CNC is a "gotta have", but it's sure nice!

I use simple air for my chip control (if at all).  Have a magnetic based segmented hose with a ball-valve for volume control.  The ways are covered so I'm not burying swarf where it shouldn't go.  I'm only 2-axis so I end up sitting in front of the mill anyhow.  Brush chips off after a pass, then re-run the routine.

Good luck with your search!

Bruce


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## ACHiPo (Nov 25, 2017)

talvare said:


> Evan,
> Yes, my mill is a full size Bridgeport and the EZ Trak was Bridgeport's CNC system for a period of time in the 1990's, so the mill was built by BP with CNC. The main point I was trying to make is that if you're not using the CNC on a regular basis, your memory has to be a lot better than mine (which isn't saying much ) to be somewhat proficient at writing programming. That's why I like a CNC with a lot of basic "canned" functions that you don't have to write a program to do.
> 
> I typically machine dry. Once in a while I'll use WD-40 on aluminum. I usually use carbide tooling for machining steel and HSS for machining aluminum. On my lathe I do have flood coolant (although I do not use a water based coolant, I use Mobil 766 cutting oil).
> ...


Ted,
I must have you confused with another Ted (red/white Superformance 427) from the Sacramento area that joined our run to Paso Robles last May.  Just came from our weekly Cobra Club breakfast--fun to get together and  bench race.

One of the things that "flipped my bit" regarding CNC was the demo I saw of the Tormach 440.  While the 440 is too small for me, I was impressed by the intuitive controls and the ability to run default CAM programs without needed 3-D CAD input.  Seems really user friendly.  Programming CNCs are pretty intimidating.

It's good to hear that you machine dry or with a manageable amount of fluid.  The thought of spraying water soluble coolant all around and the resultant mess is not something that's very attractive to me.

Evan


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## ACHiPo (Nov 25, 2017)

BGHansen said:


> I started with a new Grizzly Rong Fu clone 35 years ago, paid around $1400 for it with power feed (similar to the current G0760).  Upgraded to a used Jet JVM-830 knee mill about 30 years ago (similar to a Grizzly G0731 mill) for around $1500 as I recall.  Sold the Grizzly for $1000.  Upgraded the Jet with a 4-axis DRO for around $500 from TPACtools.com.  I could probably get my original $1500 out of it as it currently sets.
> 
> A couple of months ago I bought a 1981 2HP Bridgeport Series 1 with a circa 1985 Anilam Crusader II 2-axis CNC control for $4000.  Mill is in fantastic shape, and the CNC is pretty simple to learn (like Ted's EZ Trak).  I didn't buy the mill because of the CNC, I bought it because of the quiet variable speed head, table with scraping still visible, Kurt swivel vise, phase converter, etc.  The CNC has been great!  As Ted mentioned above, I can't imagine putting my rotary table back on the mill as the CW and CCW arc routines are so simple to use.  I'd never used or seen CNC in action before; it's totally changing how I do things (albeit only 2-axis at this point).
> 
> ...


Bruce,
I'm sure you'll get your money out of the Jet--I was pretty blown away at what new Jet mills go for these days--certainly not the "budget" brand I remembered from when I started in woodworking.  I'm envious of your location close to Motor City--seems like there's an abundance of affordable iron (but I don't miss the summers or winters!)

The depreciation on a Tormach seems like it would be pretty negligible.  I know I'd gladly pay 80% of new to get a used machine close to me.  I suspect being in the Bay Area a used Tormach would be pretty attractive, so I'm not too worried about losing much money buying new (something I typically try to avoid being a cheap b$*%@rd and all.)  I'm more concerned about the relatively large footprint of the 1100 (I like the larger work envelope of the large machine, just not the space it will take up in my shop).  I'm trying to convince myself that, while visually larger than the PM 835, the actual floor space isn't that much bigger when you take into consideration the 22" x-travel space of the PM835.  Of course the 1100 is 2x (or more depending on bells and whistles).




Evan


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## ACHiPo (Dec 4, 2017)

Well my noodling continues.  I called Charter Oak and emailed them--no response, so seems they're no longer in the CNC business.

I'm still intrigued with CNC, but not itching to pull the trigger soon.  I've been playing with Fusion 360 and it will take me a few weeks to get proficient enough with that to actually design parts anyway.  Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.  I'll post an update from time to time as my journey continues.


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## 7milesup (Dec 4, 2017)

I am in pretty much the same boat as you ACHiPo.  I have a Horror Fright bench mill but need something bigger; check that, may "want" would be the correct term.  I am seriously considering one of the Precision Matthews mills, either the 932 or the 833.  I want to eventually have the ability to convert it to CNC.   Everyone, or least it seems like nearly everyone, says to get a Bridgeport, but like you, almost all my stuff is on some sort of wheel system and as able to be moved, maybe not real easily, but at least it is an option.  I have a PM 1022 lathe that I built a stand for and it works awesome. When I get a mill, it will be ordered without a stand and I will TIG one up so it will be customized to fit my needs, specifically mobility and storage underneath the mill.  I too do woodworking and have my shop seperated into woodworking and metalworking (30x32 shop size, which is too small, LOL).  Not a big fan of the folks that say if it doesn't weigh a ton or more then it is not a mill, that is just draconian thinking IMHO.


Oh, also, Fusion 360 is, as you already discovered, free for use, even commercially, as long as you make less than $100k with it in your business.  Also, Solidworks is free for download if you are an EAA member, so I have been working with that lately.


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## ACHiPo (Dec 4, 2017)

7milesup said:


> Oh, also, Fusion 360 is, as you already discovered, free for use, even commercially, as long as you make less than $100k with it in your business.  Also, Solidworks is free for download if you are an EAA member, so I have been working with that lately.


So if I join EAA for $40/year I can get a SolidWorks seat?  I'd prefer to invest in learning SolidWorks since it's an industry standard, but can't justify $4k for a private seat.  Fusion 360 seems ok, but given the steep learning curve I'd prefer to learn one CAD tool and stick with it.


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## 7milesup (Dec 4, 2017)

That is correct. Now keep in mind that this is the student version or the educational version. So what this means is that any file that you do will have a student watermark on it. Functionality wise, the student version is almost identical to the full seat version. The difference is there are a few analytical plugins that do not work on the student version but most people would not use them anyhow.  
I just renewed my EAA membership and got a one year subscription to SolidWorks.  So, as long as the EAA keeps renewing their agreement with SolidWorks we're good to go down the road.


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