# Style over substance, but the machinist won out



## homebrewed (Sep 23, 2021)

10 years ago we moved into our new house.  So now we're seeing some failures show up in the things we had put in the house.  One of those things is a Kohler "Persuade" toilet.  It looks real nice, being a skirted toilet -- see below....



But the plumber that sold us on the thing (we have TWO of them) didn't tell us some stuff.  Many of you probably are already rolling your eyes, thinking "how the HELL can you replace the parts that most-often fail in a toilet like that???".  Well, the most common approach is to hire another plumber (most likely NOT the same guy that sold it to you in the first place) to pull the ENTIRE TOILET so he/she can replace the fill valve or flapper.  So replacing a $10 fill valve will cost a few hundred bucks.  Yeah.  Style.

I tried the usual tactics of flushing the fill valve and replacing the gasket, but no luck.  Closer examination of the fill valve assembly showed that the float probably had water in it -- water in the tank would go up over the top of the float well before the valve started closing.  The float in the other toilet of the same type was riding high, with the water coming up about halfway up on the float.  So I knew that flushing out the fill valve or replacing the gasket was a lost cause.

Further examination of the bad float revealed that it was part of a Fluidmaster 400, perhaps one of the most common fill valves out there.  So I bought one to look it over, and discovered something.  The valve is a two-part assembly.  The bottom part basically is a threaded tube.  The bottom goes through the tank and the water supply is connected to it.  The top has a very coarse thread that's used to adjust the position of the valve/float assembly.

The whole thing looks like this:



I thought it might be possible to unscrew the top part and just pull it out, to replace with a new one -- but there wasn't enough clearance in the tank to rotate the assembly and back it out.  Also, I found that it wasn't possible to separate the top and bottom.  Until I noticed the plastic retainer ring:





If the ring is pushed up, the slotted end of the tube can expand, permitting the two pieces to be separated with a tug.  But my problem wasn't solved yet, because there wasn't enough room to get my hand past (and under) the float.  So a tool was called for:




I bought a piece of 1.5" HRS from the local hardware store, cut it to length and milled a slot that was wide enough so the tool went partway up the curved side of that plastic ring, 1.25 inches.  I milled a shallow groove about 2 inches up from the end, to help me make a straight bend in the steel.  Clamped the end in my vise and heated the grooved area with my turbo torch.  When the area started glowing a dark red I bent the handle over at about a 60 degree angle.  After it cooled, I reached into the (now empty) tank, snagged the ring, pulled it up, and pulled the top part of the fill valve off.  A quick test showed that the old fill valve was a perfect fit to the bottom part of my new fill valve, so the new fill valve went into the tank.  My tool easily pushed the plastic retaining ring into place, and a few moments later I enjoyed a quiet fill and a quiet shutoff.


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## silence dogood (Sep 23, 2021)

Skirts should be on women not toilets.


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## pdentrem (Sep 23, 2021)

Same set up in my Toto Ultimate. Good the know.


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## pontiac428 (Sep 23, 2021)

homebrewed said:


> One of those things is a Kohler "Persuade" toilet.  It looks real nice, being a skirted toilet -- see below....



Who in the hell came up with "persuade" as a model name for a toilet?  I wonder what other name options were on the list...  I think the opposite name would be retract, or withdraw, and synonyms would be coax, urge, entice, and actuate.  All equally wrong.


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## woodchucker (Sep 23, 2021)

didn't read your entire thread (edit:wrongword originally)... I saw a bunch of those while looking. I avoided them. Plumbers hated installing them.
I'll admit, easier to clean a smooth exterior, but hell.. too many issues.


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## silence dogood (Sep 23, 2021)

pontiac428 said:


> Who in the hell came up with "persuade" as a model name for a toilet?  I wonder what other name options were on the list...  I think the opposite name would be retract, or withdraw, and synonyms would be coax, urge, entice, and actuate.  All equally wrong.


If you ever seen a two year old doing a little dance, sometimes it does take a little "persuade" to get them go potty.


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## Dhal22 (Sep 23, 2021)

Although I am an avowed Toto fan,  Kohler puts out a good product.  But this toilet is disappointing, why would Kohler  design that ugly side inlet for the water line? I would have roughed the water valve right at the inlet hole. 

And I'm with you on servicing it.  How?


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## woodchucker (Sep 23, 2021)

Dhal22 said:


> Although I am an avowed Toto fan,  Kohler puts out a good product.  But this toilet is disappointing, why would Kohler  design that ugly side inlet for the water line? I would have roughed the water valve right at the inlet hole.
> 
> And I'm with you on servicing it.  How?


because if the toilet covered the valve, how would you shut it?


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## FOMOGO (Sep 23, 2021)

Big fan of Toto also, good product. Many of the others are just crap. Mike


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## woodchucker (Sep 23, 2021)

Toto we're not in Kansas anymore.

_I just had to._


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## homebrewed (Sep 24, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> Big fan of Toto also, good product. Many of the others are just crap. Mike


Sadly, the parts that go into these seem to be pretty much the same.  So we're at the mercy of the sub-vendors (;  It wasn't the porcelain toilet that failed, it was the stuff installed into it.


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## Dhal22 (Sep 24, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> because if the toilet covered the valve, how would you shut it?



Again,  I'm a Toto fan.   Just have a access panel on the toilet to hide the valve.  The valve is hidden behind the toilet.  Much cleaner.


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## Dhal22 (Sep 24, 2021)

homebrewed said:


> Sadly, the parts that go into these seem to be pretty much the same.  So we're at the mercy of the sub-vendors (;  It wasn't the porcelain toilet that failed, it was the stuff installed into it.



Toto makes their own toilet parts.   They were 3.5" flapper flush DECADES before other brands.


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## pontiac428 (Sep 24, 2021)

So many Toto fans here!


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## hman (Sep 24, 2021)

Dhal22 said:


> Again,  I'm a Toto fan.   Just have a access panel on the toilet to hide the valve.  The valve is hidden behind the toilet.  Much cleaner.


That might work .... IF the valve were roughed in at the correct location.  But every house I've seen has had the valve well off to the left of the toilet drain.


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## brino (Sep 24, 2021)

hman said:


> But every house I've seen has had the valve well off to the left of the toilet drain.



Left?

Is that when staring at the wall or from the "drivers seat" like in a car?   

-brino


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## hman (Sep 24, 2021)

Well, OK ... facing the wall, as though you're the plumber who's installing the driver's seat


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## Dhal22 (Sep 24, 2021)

hman said:


> That might work .... IF the valve were roughed in at the correct location.  But every house I've seen has had the valve well off to the left of the toilet drain.



I thought those toilets were recommended during new construction.


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## bretthl (Sep 25, 2021)

I like that tool you made because sliding that collet ring up is almost impossible with wet hands.  I messed up recently and bought two American Standard toilets that were 1.26 gallons per flush.  They came with the flush valve installed so I swapped them out with Fluidmaster A400's set at max height and extended the overflow tube to gain a little over 1 gallon more per flush.  I used 1" C200 PVC and sealed the bottom with electrical tape.  Stick it to the man!


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## Dhal22 (Sep 26, 2021)

bretthl said:


> I like that tool you made because sliding that collet ring up is almost impossible with wet hands.  I messed up recently and bought two American Standard toilets that were 1.26 gallons per flush.  They came with the flush valve installed so I swapped them out with Fluidmaster A400's set at max height and extended the overflow tube to gain a little over 1 gallon more per flush.  I used 1" C200 PVC and sealed the bottom with electrical tape.  Stick it to the man!
> 
> View attachment 379704




Fluid master valves are your generic run of the mill filler valve.   I chanced upon a Hydroclean valve years ago and was blown away by how many improvements was even possible to a filler valve.   11 (i think) patents.   If I was CEO of fluid master i would have called a board meeting and shot them all and myself.   Any new improvements by fluid master is just copies of the hydro clean.


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## woodchucker (Sep 26, 2021)

Dhal22 said:


> Fluid master valves are your generic run of the mill filler valve.   I chanced upon a Hydroclean valve years ago and was blown away by how many improvements was even possible to a filler valve.   11 (i think) patents.   If I was CEO of fluid master i would have called a board meeting and shot them all and myself.   Any new improvements by fluid master is just copies of the hydro clean.


nice, thanks for the info, just looked them up, and really an improvment.


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