# Tools For Lathe And Mill From Shars And Enco



## 65Cobra427SC

11/29/2015: Added Enco to title since posts include comments from both.

I just finished setting up a PM1236 Lathe and PM932M-PDF Mill from Precision Matthews, but at this point I have zero tools and I've never used a lathe or mill before. So I'm not in a good position considering Black Friday is around the corner.

I plan to place an order with Enco, but Shars appears to sell some better quality items and they have a 20% off Sale starting tomorrow. I could really use some help making a list. I've listed a couple items I'm considering (prices before discount) but comments/additions are welcome. Thanks.

SKU202-0011     Pro Tram System 1/2" Shank With 0.25" .0005" Indicator $109
SKU 202-1279    Electronic Edge Finder $42.75
SKU404-9041     1/2"-1" M2AL 4pc Roughing End Mill Set $59.95 
SKU303-5502     Ultra Precision 1-2-3 Block $24.50 
(?) 2 Flute End Mill Set
(?) 4 Flute End Mill Set
(?) V Block(s)


Also looking at carbide tipped boring bar sets (plan to get one each of C2 and C6) but not sure of size(s)?


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## Bob Korves

What makes you think Shars has better quality stuff than Enco?  Shars sells almost exclusively offshore import tools while Enco sells everything from the same inexpensive import stuff to Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, and other tools that are highly regarded.  MSC, KBC, Travers, and others do the same.  Some of the offshore stuff is getting noticeably better with time, but I find it hit and miss from any of the suppliers, and regardless of the paper tag brand name on the box.  Get all the catalogs and get on all their mailing and email lists.  Then you can choose the best of the best deals as they appear.  Do not be afraid to return any items that do not meet your standards.

Just starting out, pick the best sale price including freight and take your chances.  Some (most?) of the tools will need work new right out of the box.  Only buy what you absolutely need until you have more experience.  Wait for the great sales with the best discounts, like you are doing here, and buy a few things at a time that you will need for general work.  The tram system is completely optional, and you can get by just fine without it.  A standard edge finder is more reliable and cheaper, and the battery never goes dead.  "Ultra Precision 1-2-3 Block $24.50."  Ha ha ha, LOL!

Not trying to diss you here, just telling it as I see it...

Keep on the lookout for quality vintage tools in great condition on Craigslist and elsewhere and make some great deals on some nice tools as well.


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## hman

There's a member selling resharpened end mills, $15 for 5 lbs, and his ad is still up.  I don't have any further details, but he's posted his phone number.  His eBay ads say local pickup only, but he might be willing to pack 'em in a flat-rate box for a forum member???
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/resharpened-end-mills-reamers-micrometers.40037/

Also, Enco sent me a postcard with two offers, good until 11/30, that might be of help to you:
25% off merchandise (except machinery) - SPECIAL
Free UPS ground shipping up to 125 lbs - OFFER


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## Charles Spencer

Well I don't know what you got with your machines, but a vise for the mill and a quick change tool post would be considerations if you don't have them.

I agree with Bob about the tramming system and the electronic edge finder.

I'd get a dial indicator and a mag base, possibly more than one indicator.

Good sets of letter, number, and fractional drills, as well as some centering drills.

Micrometers or a good set of calipers.

Clamping kit for the mill if you don't have one.

Dykem, scriber, and square.

Many other things, I'm sure, but what you have listed along with what I've listed would be a good start.


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## dave2176

Go to Enco, pull up their hot deals for November and start loading your cart. They've got a decent collet set #231-4611 there as well as most of what you have listed above. I have that size mill and wish I had a 8" rotary table instead of the 6" I have. You can find it there too. Get a good Dial Test Indicator for setup. Other items Spillmaster oil cups, Vactra #2, Vactra #4, Scissor Knurl #505-4518 or step up to better, boring bars, HSS tool bits, Indexable cutting set(possibly Shars 7 piece set), drill bits, did your machines come with drill chucks?, 20 piece end mill set (page 124 main catalog), calipers?, micrometers?, cutting oil. WD-40 gallon and squirt bottle.

When your cart is full and you can't find anything else you can't live without don't forget to use your 25% discount "Special" and free shipping discount "Offer".

Dave


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## dave2176

Get  a dial indicator or two and build the tramming aid you are looking at. Simple useful project.

Dave


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## Eddyde

Enco stuff is fine and they have great customer support Plus a current 25% off and free shipping!

Mill:
Vise, I suggest you invest in a good vise like a Kurt (see 25% off above).
Parallels.
Collets, you don't need every size just the ⅛-¾ by 1/8s.
Edge finder regular, not electronic. especially as a beginner you want to get the feel of the machine, electronic aids tend to insulate you from that.
End mills, As others suggested get quality surplus off eBay, craigslist  or the member here selling them by the pound.
Forget the tramming aid or as others have said build one for your first project.
Lathe:
A quick change tool post is a good idea, the Phase 2 (wedge type) is decent enough.
A set of tool holders with carbide inserts this will get you started turning right away but it is advisable to learn to grind HSS tools as well.
General stuff:
A good caliper
A good micrometer.
A good Dial indicator with a magnetic base and a spindle mount. a test indicator is also a good idea. 
Wiggler type center finder.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Sorry but I forgot to mention what items I already purchased. For the mill, I upgraded to a Quick Change Tool Post and the Homge 5" High Precision Vise with a Swivel Base. It also came with an R8 Collet Set and Drill Chucks. I also have the ES12 DRO's for both machines. Since then I've purchased a Vertex 8" Horizontal/Vertical Rotary Table and Divider Plates. Otherwise I have a set of micrometers I purchased years ago which should be fine.

I should have also mentioned I want to stay away from used tools until I've used the machines for a while. Since I've never used a lathe or mill before, being able to eliminate the used tool factor in case anything goes wrong or doesn't come out the way I expected, is a plus. It's just my personal preference for now.

I have a massive list of tools for these machines... but figuring out what I should get early on vs. what can wait isn't completely clear when I haven't used either machine yet.

I've been through the Harbor Freight thing before and stopped going there a few years ago. I've never dealt with Enco so I'm clueless as to how well that will go, but they have both import and USA made items which will at least give me a choice. But there is no feedback... even Harbor Freight has reviews... and making returns to a mail order company is a pain. Wonder what percentage of items they sell that are never returned due to the inconvenience of mailing them back.

I'm retired but can step up with some items depending on how much I think I'll use the tool and the price difference. My biggest problem is narrowing down a particular dial indicator, end mill set, etc. I will need a bore kit at some point but not sure how they work or how to choose the size. Yeah, I can wait on that one but hey, if I could figure out why not get it at 25% off.

Thanks for the Enco codes Hman. Those couple extra days will help a lot removing some of the pressure involved with placing an order before I'm ready.

Thanks for the list and part numbers Dave. I did purchase Vactra #2 but not sure why Vactra #4 as well so I'm curious where you use one versus the other. I appreciate the part number for the knurling tool which will come in handy early on when I start making knobs. I did think of making my own tram tool but it's something I need right away and I already have enough on my list to last me a while. BTW, I'm not sure if making a tram tool on a mill that needs tramming is a good idea?

As far as my original post is concerned, I only said Shars "appears" to sell "some" better quality items and I still think that's true. And the Pro Tram System does appear to be one of those items. If I'm wrong, I can return it. Now, if anyone has already purchased that item and found out it was worse than a less expensive version from Enco, then that's another thing altogether. As far as 1-2-3 blocks are concerned, I was told not to purchase them from Enco because the unthreaded holes are the wrong size so they can't be properly bolted together, whereas the ones from Shars are correct.

Thanks for the replies... oops, Eddyde replied while I was typing. More to read!


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## wawoodman

I would think about what projects might be high on your list, and tool up for them.


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## Bob Korves

You can tram a mill just fine with an indicator holder mounted on or in the spindle, and an indicator of any type.  Swing it around and it will hit front, back, and both sides of the table.  Bump and tweak the partially loosened head until the needle stays the same as the indicator goes around the circle.  You will need those tools anyway for many other purposes.  I would a lot rather have a multipurpose quality tool like a Noga indicator base than a tramming aid, and I do!  Indicating stuff is a PITA until you get a Noga, then it is child's play.


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## 65Cobra427SC

wawoodman... you referring to the list that was supposed to be finished 2 months ago, ha ha ha.

Thanks Bob. There was a Noga on my list somewhere. I'll bump it up so I can perform the initial tram that way. Then I can make my own with dual indicators. Good suggestion.

Okay, I'm still plugging away, but little by little I'm getting the hang of this. Obviously I have a long way to go but hopefully I can make a reasonable first purchase.


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## dave2176

Vactra 4 sticks on the vertical ways better. Places you need a thick film to stay put. Returning to Enco is simple though I only needed to once. Excellent customer service there. I've bought a lot of small stuff from Shars and never been disappointed either.


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## David VanNorman

For me I use Wholesale tool they are in Warren MI. I am less than an hour from you. I am west of Waynesburg PA . I would love to see your new mill . I sold my Hardinge horz and I want to get a table top like you have.


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## Charles Spencer

David VanNorman said:


> For me I use Wholesale tool they are in Warren MI. I am less than an hour from you. I am west of Waynesburg PA . I would love to see your new mill . I sold my Hardinge horz and I want to get a table top like you have.



Gee, with your name I'd be looking for a Van Norman.


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## David VanNorman

The names the same but not the deep pockets.


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## Jprato

dave2176 said:


> Get  a dial indicator or two and build the tramming aid you are looking at. Simple useful project.
> 
> Dave



I'm with Dave on the tramming aid. I ordered two .0005 indicators ($37 delivered) from Shars and built my own. It was my first project on my new to me mill.


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## chips&more

I have been doing this for 50 years. Do I need a pro tram system/tramming aid, NO, DEFINITELY NOT! Do I need 1-2-3 Blocks, NO! Do I need Shars stuff, NO! Do I need an electronic edge finder, NO! (but it sure is eye candy). Do I buy stuff from ENCO, definetley YES! Do I buy stuff from Shars, NEVER! But, my shop must have something in it? Because, I can’t even walk in it from one end to the other? There is too much crap in the way! Please have a great Turkey Day, Dave.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Dave V... Thanks for the Wholesale Tool recommendation. Checked out their website and kept their info for later. At the moment I'm having enough trouble just trying to absorb Enco. On another note, you're more than welcome to stop over. Let's touch base after the holidays. BTW, one of the reasons I purchased the PM lathe and mill is because they're less than 30 minutes from me and Matt seems to be a good guy.

Chips... That was an excellent, to the point post. So for now, I'm only going to concentrate on Enco. Thanks to Hman, I have a few extra days which is a huge help. He even cured my headache.

Jprato... That was one of the reasons I planned to get their tram... the one with the 0.0005" indicators.

dave2176... That made sense. I'll keep an eye on how well the V#2 holds up (pun?) so I'll have a better idea.

EVERYONE... Have a great Thanksgiving. And please, if you have any specific recommendations let me know... a part number would be great.


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## Bob Korves

Dale Derry at Metal Tips and Tricks on YouTube has a couple (actually four) very good videos on making your own tramming jig.  Check them out.


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## 65Cobra427SC

THAT'S OVER 2 HOURS OF VIDEO!    

That baby will have to wait until my Enco order is placed. But I WILL watch it. Thanks!


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## joshua43214

I pretty much stopped even looking at the Shars website because of the shipping costs.
When it is all said and done, Enco ends up being the same or cheaper because of shipping costs.
Enco also has great return service. I have actually told them I just don't like it, and they take it back with no arguments.
You will also want to watch their sister company MSC. Enco will often have the same exact item for less, but MSC is much easier to shop at, and has a wider and better range of tooling. If you live in a large city, you might even have an MSC in town.

Most of the stuff Shars carries is low grade, but I have a few things from them I am happy with. Their black faced 1" travel dial indicator has turned out to be a real winner. I have two live on one machine or another all the time. They has been dropped, crashed, covered in hot chips and lube, and it just keeps working. I got a deal on three new Fowlers that I expected to replace my Shars unit with and they are still in their box's unused. Probably the best deal on a cheap indicator on the planet. I have their 8" 4 jaw, it is decently balanced, the jaws are approximately square, and it cost less than $200.00 including the adaptor. I also have one of their 6" dial calipers, it has out lived my Fowler "drop proof" that has never been the same since it got dropped.

I have a 1" travel 1/10ths indicator that sticks a lot. I have a 1/10ths DTI that jams a lot. They are both junk.

Enco has 1-2-3 blocks on sale, get them they will be just as good as the Shars "precision" ones.
If you really must have precision 1-2-3 blocks (you probably don't), then get them from MSC (they carry the stuff made by Suburban Tools). Be sitting when you see the price.
I also agree with all the others. Do not bother with a tramming thingy, just sweep the table with your indicator - it is not hard. Build the tool shown in the video, it is an excellent project to learn on, the tool itself does not have to be anything even remotely close to being a precision instrument - it is just a rigid base for holding a precision instrument.
Definitely no on the electronic edge finder. Get a high quality traditional one, Fowler at the worst, Brown and Sharpe is the best for these imo (I really like B&S tools).


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## 4GSR

I recently purchased some AXA-1 tool holders from them thru eBay, Discount MAchine. They finally fixed the problems with the loose set screws.  They are all nice and snug! had to use a Allen wrench to turn the set screws!


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## 65Cobra427SC

There were a several items I compared price wise between Enco and Shars and Enco was much more expensive so I ordered them from Shars. However, you're correct about Shars shipping, and one of the items I ordered excluded my order from their flat rate shipping cost so I won't know the final total until it's too late. However, even after taking into consideration the 25% off and free shipping codes with Enco (which I'll still use for other items I need) compared to Shars 20% off Black Friday sale and their exorbitant shipping costs, the identical items from Shars should end up costing significantly less.

Here are the 4 more expensive items I purchased along with the prices from both Enco and Shars. I compared the specs and pictures from each place, and as far as I could tell the items are identical. Obviously I'm not buying the same items from both places, so I can't say for sure, but if anyone with these items from Enco wants to exchange pics and details (once I get my order) I'm willing to do the same.

Import 1/8" Thin Style, 10 Pair Parallel Sets (Enco $63.65) (Shars $30.95)
Interstate 20 piece TiN Coated Centercutting 3/16 to 3/4 2 flute and 4 flute End Mill Set (Enco $127.74) (Shars $79.95)
4 Piece Edge / Center Finder Set (Enco $49.22) (Shars $20.95)
Co-Axial Indicator Set (Enco $128.41) (Shars $79.95)

The above items before any discount (Enco $369.02) vs (Shars $211.80). After their respective discounts (Enco $276.77) (Shars $169.44) for a difference of $107.33. If Shars shipping comes anywhere near that difference, I'll have a field day ruining their reputation. Otherwise, that difference is pretty major as far as I'm concerned.

None of this surprises me. It's obvious Enco is where everyone goes just based on the comments posted within this thread alone, including the slamming of Shars. I've seen Harbor Freight do the same as Enco and both places appear to be blindsiding their devoted customers. I'm not saying I'm 100% correct, but unless I find out otherwise, I'm not about to simply buy everything from Enco and not look elsewhere.


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## Charles Spencer

Two of the items listed by Shars are also available from them (as Discount Machine) on ebay at around 20% off the Shars price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-HSS-TIN-...084170?hash=item51b96a058a:g:jLgAAOSwYHxWISpw

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-1-8-S...hash=item51addd0aad:m:mJ25a_KKVbHysoOk4JP--lA

This is less than 20% off:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-4-PC-...681005?hash=item4d1c717b6d:g:i4cAAOSw9mFWISA-

And the shipping is not bad if you request a total from them.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Thanks Charles. I noticed Ken (above) used them as well. I'll definitely keep them in mind, especially if I need something but don't have any discount codes to use at Enco and Shars. At the moment, what makes this difficult is I'm just starting out... and with both a lathe and mill at the same time... plus I've never used either machine before... so I need a lot of tooling, much of which I have to figure out what task they even perform. Once these initial purchases are done, it will be easier for me to check other places as well. After what I've seen so far, I have no plans on going straight to Enco. I'll be bargain shopping... crap, I'm getting old. Okay, I am old.


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## Dan_S

Shars has some really nice stuff like high end USA made boring bars. They have some crap. Enco is the same way, some really nice stuff, and some complete crap.   The best thing you can do is shop around.


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## T Bredehoft

Compared to a "Tramming Aid", an indicator on a bar, sweeping 8 or 10 inches either side of the spindle will be FAR more accurate. Measuring .0001, 2 1/2 inches from the spindle compared to .0001 8 inches from the spindle makes the latter far more meaningful. Sure the tool is nice, but the cost is not returned in usefulness.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Dan_S said:


> Shars has some really nice stuff like high end USA made boring bars. They have some crap. Enco is the same way, some really nice stuff, and some complete crap.   The best thing you can do is shop around.



Exactly. And that's much easier to do now days considering everything is online. Try doing that back when the only way to check was by looking at paper ads, catalogs, visiting the stores, or making calls... and getting put on hold for half an hour.



T Bredehoft said:


> Compared to a "Tramming Aid", an indicator on a bar, sweeping 8 or 10 inches either side of the spindle will be FAR more accurate. Measuring .0001, 2 1/2 inches from the spindle compared to .0001 8 inches from the spindle makes the latter far more meaningful. Sure the tool is nice, but the cost is not returned in usefulness.



Funny you would bring that up because one of the main reasons I didn't buy that tramming tool was due to short distance of the dials from center. There are always other ways to get things done. The bar idea sounds good. Thanks.


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## GarageWrench

The only promo code Enco has at there site is 15% off till Nov 30th. Im not seeing anything on 25% off or any shipping discounts at there web site.


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## Dan_S

Buck, it's two codes "Special" & "Offer" !


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## Eddyde

GarageWrench said:


> The only promo code Enco has at there site is 15% off till Nov 30th. Im not seeing anything on 25% off or any shipping discounts at there web site.


They don't advertise the 25% specials on their site, they are only sent directly to customers.


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## TOOLMASTER

I have bought lots of stuff for them, the only thing that was total junk was a lathe chuck mount plate..


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## arvidj

Just finished an order to Enco and noticed that, at least for some of the items I looked at, the price on the "master catalog" pages were less than the actual price when the item was selected. As an example, the "master catalog" price for item 404-1627 was $114.61 but when it is selected the price is $123.37. Just something else to watch for when comparing prices.


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## JR49

arvidj said:


> Just finished an order to Enco and noticed that, at least for some of the items I looked at, the price on the "master catalog" pages were less than the actual price when the item was selected.


        I noticed that also, and 2 scenerios came to mind.  #1, being that it is the end of the year, and the master catalog is a PDF of the  year old 2015 catalog, the higher prices at checkout might be what has been put in the computer in preparation for their 2016 catalog.  I hope #1 is the case, because #2 would stop me from ever using Enco again-- #2, lets face it in this age of  technology, there computers could easily be programed so that with a push of a button, prices would increase, lets say 10%.  Then when they put out a code for 25% off, they press that button and we are actually only getting 15% off.  Sound like I'm a conspiracy theorist?  I'm really not, just admitting what popped into my head.  Happy Machining,   JR49


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## Dan_S

JR49 said:


> I noticed that also, and 2 scenerios came to mind.  #1, being that it is the end of the year, and the master catalog is a PDF of the  year old 2015 catalog, the higher prices at checkout might be what has been put in the computer in preparation for their 2016 catalog.  I hope #1 is the case, because #2 would stop me from ever using Enco again-- #2, lets face it in this age of  technology, there computers could easily be programed so that with a push of a button, prices would increase, lets say 10%.  Then when they put out a code for 25% off, they press that button and we are actually only getting 15% off.  Sound like I'm a conspiracy theorist?  I'm really not, just admitting what popped into my head.



I think what you will find is that it's kind of like #1. They set the prices in the catalog, based on current price at the time the catalog was made, so most likely late 2014. The price  also fluctuates up and down over the year, based on supply and demand.  If no ones buying a product, the price goes down to try and entice buyers. If it's flying off the shelf, the price will be right at the msrp.

Amazon, has automated sofware that alters prices automatically. I've purchased end-mills for 10% of the msrp, and as soon as my order completes it go back to full price. Then 2 months later its down to 85%, 6 months its at 50%. Basically, it all comes down to the sales model, they will take a bath on one order, as long as they are making a profit overall.


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## dave2176

That difference between the two prices has always been. No conspiracy there. Just increasing prices throughout the year.
Dave


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## 65Cobra427SC

Interesting stuff. I've been making a list without putting anything in my basket because this is my first order and I knew it was going to take me a few days to finish. Yesterday I noticed several of my items were also in their Hot Deals Catalog with lower prices so I made a note of those on my list as well. Not sure what I think of their html and pdf pages but it sure sounds like you need to be on your toes when it comes to their pricing.

But I just received an email from Enco for 25% Off and Free Shipping so they must know I've been on their site for hours at a time, ha. Regardless I have to place an order today... BUT I could really use some quick help...

Although I have a list, there are still tools missing for my PM1236 lathe. I have a complete quick change tool post set but no tooling. I still need tools to cut and thread but not sure what else. Would also prefer to buy a set but if anyone has any suggestions or what other types of tools/cutters I could use please let me know.


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## Dan_S

65Cobra427SC said:


> Would also prefer to buy a set but if anyone has any suggestions or what other types of tools/cutters I could use please let me know.



these will work very well on your lathe. I have 2 of these sets, one dedicated to steel, the other to aluminium and brass.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Glanze-Turning-Tool-Set-1-2/H5681

you will need plain hss tool bits though, as insert tooling won't cover all use cases.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Almost ordered something I didn't need. My quick change tool post set includes a holder for knurling and includes diamond pattern knurls. A knurling tool was on my Enco list. That would have been a waste of $74... whew!

The set is a wedge type Phase II 251-222 which comes with 5 holders...
Turning and Facing Holder  (1/4" 5/8" Toolbit Size)
Boring, Turning and Facing Holder  (1/2" Shank)  (1/4" 5/8" Toolbit Size)
Boring Bar Holder  (3/4" Bar Size with Bushing)  (1" w/o Bushing)
Universal Parting Blade  (11/16" Blade Height)
Knurling, Turning and Facing Holders  (1/4" 5/8" Toolbit Size)

I'm going to try and figure out what I might want to order 'now' for these holders. Shouldn't need anything for the boring bar holder since I already ordered a boring bar kit for the mill.  And I don't need anything else for the Knurling holder since the diamond pattern knurls were what I wanted to begin with. But I don't understand why I have a Boring, Turning and Facing holder if I have those separately? And I need to figure out what the Parting Blade holder is for.

Time for more reading.


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## royesses

Enco doesn't miss represent their prices in the catalog. The price on line is the current price based on cost. I've seen times when the catalog price was higher than the current price also. I've been buying from them since 2004 and have never been dissatisfied or screwed. I am very grateful to receive their discount codes, that has allowed me to afford tools that i would not have been able to afford otherwise. I think they are an outstanding company. Just my opinion.

I have purchased tools from Shars also. They have been great so far. The Diamond and CBN wheels are very reasonable and work great. I do agree their web site stores shipping leaves much to be desired though. I wish they would ship priority USPS also. I find that most of the time the price on Ebay store is lower and is usually USPS priority so that's where i check before ordering.


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## Dan_S

If you are talking about this type of holder, I'd recommend you never use it for knurling. This style relies on you basically ramming the knurls into the stock, and puts a lot of side load on the spindle. On thin work, you run a high chance of just bending the work piece.


Boring bars for the mill are completely different than boring bars designed for a lathe. trust me you want bars designed for a lathe, even if its just the hss tool bit type.


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## dave2176

65Cobra427SC said:


> A knurling tool was on my Enco list. That would have been a waste of $74... whew!


You will still want the scissor knurl. That bump knurl is not good.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Yes, that is the tool I'm referring to and now I see your point. I'll put the Enco model back on my list. Included a picture in the post... and I assume the extended arm is there to clamp into the tool holder. I appreciate the help.


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## dave2176

Yes, the arm you indicate is for holding.


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## 65Cobra427SC

After examining all my tool holders, I understand them better. I noticed the 250-201 (Turning and Facing Holder) and 250-202 (Boring, Turning and Facing Holder) are identical except the 250-202 has a V-Groove along the bottom surface opposite the clamping screws. I read where it's needed to hold a round boring bar, but would there also be a need to hold square inserts at an angle (i.e. to give a different cut)?


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## 65Cobra427SC

Thanks Dave. Now I know what I'm ordering is what I need. A shame about the knurl on that one tool holder.


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## wrat

dave2176 said:


> You will still want the scissor knurl. That bump knurl is not good.


I've used the 'bump' knurl with no problems.  Of course, that was on a larger lathe than my Atlas, so it's good to know about a scissor knurl.  I'd not seen that approach before.  It's clear there's a difference.  Good piece of info.

Of course, you can't knurl something very large in diameter with a scissor knurl, it doesn't look like.  Or if it gets very large, the scissor knurl effectively becomes a bump knurl.  But that would be the minority of jobs, certainly.

Wrat


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## 65Cobra427SC

Enco has those scissor knurling tools in 2 sizes... up to 2-1/8"... and 2-1/8" to 4". I like the way all these companies put the dividing line at a point to entice people to purchase both. I'm getting the smaller one which should cover me for the most part. But if/when I need something larger, I'm gambling I can machine something that will space the knurls further apart. 

I'm watching videos about these quick change tool holders and learning a few things. But I'm going to have to make a decision soon on which bits/sets to buy... before my brain explodes.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Wait! I just realized this is Sunday so the coupon codes are good until Monday 11:00 PM EST


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## GarageWrench

Enco just posted on there home page, 25% off and free shipping for cyber Monday, starts now!


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## AirWolf

You will  find that often the discount codes will work for several days AFTER the posted expiration date. I have made more than a couple of purchases that way... surprisingly.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Interesting, but my luck doesn't run that way 

My turning and face holders accept 1/4" - 5/8" cutters. Not sure what my perfect cutters are yet, and I'll probably ruin them all anyway. So I'm thinking of just buying several HSS blanks to try my hand at grinding, and a 38 pc Brazed Carbide Tool Bit Set which includes a variety of bits and is reasonably priced. Once I get some experience I should be able to make a better choice. Hopefully that makes sense.

I'm now wondering about the size. The blanks come in multiple sizes, and even the above set comes in 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8, and they're all the same price. So other than larger sizes being stiffer, is there any other difference the size makes?

(fyi... looking at Pages 161-162 on Enco's website)


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## dave2176

Skip the brazed carbide set. Add some HSS bits from Enco up to 1/2" and then go to Shars and buy the 7 piece 5/8" indexable turning set. Maybe some extra inserts. #404-1053 or even 404-1042 for starters. I use the tar out of the 1053 model and really like them. Shars inserts have worked well for me too.


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## pepi

chips&more said:


> I have been doing this for 50 years. Do I need a pro tram system/tramming aid, NO, DEFINITELY NOT! Do I need 1-2-3 Blocks, NO! Do I need Shars stuff, NO! Do I need an electronic edge finder, NO! (but it sure is eye candy). Do I buy stuff from ENCO, definetley YES! Do I buy stuff from Shars, NEVER! But, my shop must have something in it? Because, I can’t even walk in it from one end to the other? There is too much crap in the way! Please have a great Turkey Day, Dave.


  I cannot stand the ENCO web site, eats it trying to compare products and find stuff in general. They really should do something about the way that thing works. I will not use them just because of the mess, got better things to do with my time.... like reading around this site for one.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Thanks for the part numbers Dave. Not that I'm asking for everyone to do my shopping for me, but this stuff is too expensive to just select items randomly. And people don't seem to understand, or remember, how difficult (confusing?) this is for someone that never did this before.

You're exactly right pepi. I've realized that after spending more hours... no... more days than I care to admit on Enco's website. That's why, once I find an item I want, I make a list. When I'm done, I'll go back to the list, enter the numbers and make a purchase. Enco has a problem letting go of the paper catalog. And if those pages literally look like their catalog, then the catalog isn't very impressive either. And what's with the html and pdf pages. They need to make a real website so they can make changes on individual items, and searches can come up with individual items instead of giving you a list of pages. Someone there needs to step up and revamp that entire website. It's very frustrating.

Okay, I have my coffee now so I'm going to try and finish this list.


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## Dan_S

65Cobra427SC said:


> Enco has a problem letting go of the paper catalog. And if those pages literally look like their catalog, then the catalog isn't very impressive either. And what's with the html and pdf pages. They need to make a real website so they can make changes on individual items, and searches can come up with individual items instead of giving you a list of pages. Someone there needs to step up and revamp that entire website. It's very frustrating.
> .



I think you will find that the reason they website is the way it is, is because a large portion of their customer base likes it that way. I'm a developer, and I can tell you from personal experience that a large chunk of the population sucks at searching for stuff, and would rather just browse a catalog. 


have you picked out a good grinder & wheels yet?


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## Dan_S

If your going to buy insert tooling, I'd highly recommend you go with the grizzly set or something similar, as all the tools use the same style of insert. The benefit of this, is that you only have to buy one type of insert, and that can save you a lot of money in the long run. It also lets you move the inserts between the different tools so you can fully utilize all the cutting edges on the insert.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Glanze-Turning-Tool-Set-1-2/H5681

here is some more info from the manufacture on the set.
http://www.glanze.com/indexable-tool-holders/mc-ccmt-set-of-7-tools.html


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## 65Cobra427SC

Thanks Dan. These past couple days have been wearing me out but I see your point and it does make sense so it's on my list.

BTW, it looks like Enco sells various CCMT 21.51 inserts (page 169). I just don't understand their pricing... can't tell if it's per insert or per package. If it's per package, then the inserts are a lot cheaper at Enco. If you take a look, let me know.


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## Dan_S

65Cobra427SC said:


> Thanks Dan. These past couple days have been wearing me out but I see your point and it does make sense so it's on my list.


I think that's to be expected, you are shoving a lot of learning into a very shot time period. Not to mention some of the stuff you are learning, can only be learned by asking questions.



65Cobra427SC said:


> I just don't understand their pricing... can't tell if it's per insert or per package. If it's per package, then the inserts are a lot cheaper at Enco. If you take a look, let me know.


It's per insert. Inserts can range from $3 to almost $30 each depending on who makes them and what they are for.

If you don't know about it, this page will help you learn a lot about inserts.
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm

when you go looking for inserts you want to look for the following.

shape/tolerence

ccmt
ccgt
sizes

21.50 (iso 060200)
21.51 (iso 060204)
21.52 (iso 060208)
these are the most common, and if you look at the carbide depot page, you will see even more sizes are possible, though less common.

Ebay is the best place by far to get good deals on inserts, but you need to know what your looking for, and when you search you will need to look for both ANSI & ISO nomenclature. You also need to be really sure of what you are ordering, because half the time they people selling them don't know the first thing about what they are selling.

For example I run the Korloy (South Korean)  AK(chip breaker) for aluminum, as it's a well respected company and the inserts cut through aluminum like butter. Right now you can get a pack of 10  for as low as $20, but if you go through an established seller with a good reputation its more like $35 to $50 for a pack of 10.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=korloy+ccgt+ak&_sop=15


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## 65Cobra427SC

Thanks again. I just finished placing an order with Shars and I'm almost finished with my order from Grizzly. Figured I would add a few items while I'm there and it was worth it because they have a boring bar set that's less than half the price of the one I was going to get from Shars, and all it's missing is the smallest bar. Of course we all know that will be the one I need. Anything that's left on the list will be from Enco. There are some items I just plain gave up on but that's okay considering how much money I spent just today. If I run into a snag I could still post though.

BTW, in case anyone is interested, the "blackfriday" discount code for 20% off at Shars, still works.


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## mikey

I second Dan S.'s suggestion on insert tools - the SCLCR (Right hand) and SCLCL (LH) tools work fairly well. It is unlikely that you will use most of the tools in the Grizzly set. Well, maybe the boring bar. This geometry allows for both facing and turning when the tool is perpendicular to the work and is probably the single most popular tool holder amongst hobby guys. With a max lathe speed of only 1800 rpm, they are not better than a properly ground HSS tool but they do work, especially until you learn to grind tools.

Most 1/2" SCLCR/L tool holders take a 32.5X insert; the Grizz tools take 22.5X inserts. CCMT is the standard insert for these tools but they will accept a CCGT insert, which is sharper at the nose (cornerpoint). The X in 32.5X is the size of the nose radius; this affects your depth of cut and finish. The smaller the number, the smaller the nose radius. Be clear that a tool holder will accept only one size of insert - 32.5X or 22.5X - so you need to know which size insert your tool holder uses. You can use either a CCMT or CCGT insert in these tools.

The CCMT inserts are good for most work and the CCGT-AK inserts work well for aluminum. The AK inserts are very sharp and have a very positive rake so they are very, very good for aluminum. However, be aware that the nose radius can greatly affect the finish in aluminum (and any other material you cut) and a CCGT 32.52 is better than the 32.51 in this regard due to the larger nose radius. AK inserts also work well in softer steels and plastics.

If you need to learn about the differences in the various inserts, I suggest you download and peruse the catalog from Seco or Iscar. Once you know which insert you need you can cross reference it on the Carbide Depot site and either buy it from a supply house or go to ebay, which will be cheaper. Seco, Iscar, Korloy, Kennametal, Valenite/Walter, Mitsubishi are all good brands.

Not all tool holders are created equal regarding the precision of the insert pocket where the inserts sits. One cheap but very good tool holder is made by Tool Mex; they are as good as my Seco and Iscar tool holders at 1/3 the cost. You can find them on ebay. For a 12" lathe, a 1/2" tool should fit and will be much stiffer than a 3/8" tool.

With all that said, these carbide tools are intended for much higher speeds than your lathe can achieve. The geometry and chipbreakers will not be as effective but they will work. When you can, learn to grind a good HSS tool. They will work better in the speed range your lathe can handle.


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## Dan_S

mikey said:


> With all that said, these carbide tools are intended for much higher speeds than your lathe can achieve. The geometry and chipbreakers will not be as effective but they will work. When you can, learn to grind a good HSS tool. They will work better in the speed range your lathe can handle.



Mike, that's not exactly true, as it depends on the material being turned and it's diameter.  Even on my little 8" lathe it very easy to get into the sfpm operating window for inserts, specially in steel.

The ak inserts are rated at 984 sfpm maximum. at 1800 rpm anything over 2-1/16" diameter is going to be over the sfpm limit.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Anyone happen to have a coupon code for Grizzly?

And yes, I've been keeping up with the posts


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## mikey

Dan_S said:


> Mike, that's not exactly true, as it depends on the material being turned and it's diameter.  Even on my little 8" lathe it very easy to get into the sfpm operating window for inserts, specially in steel.
> 
> The ak inserts are rated at 984 sfpm maximum. at 1800 rpm anything over 2-1/16" diameter is going to be over the sfpm limit.



Okay, let's see if I understand. Say we're cutting something soft - 1215 mild steel maybe, with a work piece 1" OD and a moderate feed rate of 0.008 ipm with a common grade of insert like TP200. The suggested cutting speed is 1575 so the calculated RPM would be over 6000 RPM. A similar sized work piece in 6061 with the same cutting conditions might have a cutting speed of 1775 sfm, for an RPM of about 6800. These cutting speeds are from Seco but they are similar for most inserts with similar grades and geometries. Korloy lists the AK insert at 984-2625, with an average recommended cutting speed of 1640 sfm so 984 is the minimum recommended speed.

I agree that the material and size enters into the picture but, in general, most of our hobby shop lathes will not get into the speed range these inserts are designed for. That is not to say they won't work but they will not work as intended. This speed thing affects insert life primarily and in a hobby shop that may be less important but I've used an AK insert at the proper speed on a high speed lathe and believe me, that is an awesome insert when used in the recommended speed range. At over 6000 rpm that insert will equal or better the best HSS tool for surface finish, will cut more accurately and size better. At purely mortal speeds in a hobby shop, I think HSS has the edge. 

Let us also not overlook depth of cut. A carbide inserted tool on an 8" lathe will limit your depth of cut more than a HSS tool will. Similarly, a HSS tool will take a finer sizing/finishing cut than a carbide tool will if the tool is properly ground. Don't get me wrong; a carbide tool can cut accurately but you must know how that nose radius cuts at a given DOC to bring it in on size. A HSS tool is less finicky, at least it seems so to me.

My point is that HSS will work better for most hobby class lathes but you have to know how to grind a tool and that takes time. Carbide tools will enable the new owner to get up and running so he can learn to use his lathe and they will work but we should acknowledge their limitations, don't you agree?


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## mikey

Cobra, I just came back and re-read my post and wanted to clarify this for you. What Dan and I are discussing is the RPM the lathe should turn at for the insert to work as intended by the maker. The most common formula for calculating turning speeds is: RPM = CS X 4 (3.82 is more accurate)/D, where CS is the recommended cutting speed for the material and feed rate and D is the diameter of the workpiece. This gives you the RPM the insert is intended to run at to produce a given insert life, usually rated in minutes. 

For example, for a 1" diameter piece of 6061-T6 Aluminum, an AK insert run at about 0.008 ipm feed will have a recommended cutting speed of 984-2625. If you plug these numbers into the formula above we get an RPM range of 3900 to 10,500 RPM at a feed rate of 0.008 ipm. Your lathe has a top speed of 1800 RPM so you aren't anywhere near the range for optimal performance for these inserts. They will work and they will cut but the chipbreaker and cutter performance will not be as advertised. I wouldn't let that stop you from buying and using these tools. Just know that there are limitations to them and you need to learn how to use them to gain the accuracy you require.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Okay, my ordering is finished. In the past week I placed two orders with Shars, and one each with Grizzly and Enco. I had to call Enco because for some reason the Cyber Monday codes didn't work. They couldn't modify the original invoice so I had to read off all the item numbers so they could construct a new invoice. At least the wait time wasn't long and the person was very nice. But when I went to check the new invoice there were 3 items that I still didn't get a ($26) discount for so I'm going to have to call them again tomorrow. I may just have them issue me a gift certificate if they can and I'll use it later. Unless you don't think I'll ever need any more tools???


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## 65Cobra427SC

Thanks mikey for the explanation. I think I understand the situation you and Dan are talking about, but I plan to revisit it later this week since placing all these orders, and having to call Enco, wore me out. Both my back and credit card are killing me after spending most of the last 3 days sitting and reading things over and over again. But I'm glad I got it done. Although I may not be finished here, I really want to thank everyone for the help. This is a great forum.


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## Dan_S

mikey said:


> Okay, let's see if I understand. Say we're cutting something soft - 1215 mild steel maybe, with a work piece 1" OD and a moderate feed rate of 0.008 ipm with a common grade of insert like TP200. The suggested cutting speed is 1575 so the calculated RPM would be over 6000 RPM. A similar sized work piece in 6061 with the same cutting conditions might have a cutting speed of 1775 sfm, for an RPM of about 6800. These cutting speeds are from Seco but they are similar for most inserts with similar grades and geometries. Korloy lists the AK insert at 984-2625, with an average recommended cutting speed of 1640 sfm so 984 is the minimum recommended speed.



I think the insert size plays a part as to how hard it can be pushed as well. Take a look at this photo On the left is the back of my 21.51 pack and the right is the back of a 32.51 pack. Maybe they are mis labeled, but i haven't found any listing sfpm over 1000 sfpm, and I checked several ebay listings.



It's the same with these Sandvik insets I use on steel, and I got these directly from a popular US retailer. I've actually smoked 2 of these, because I pushed them to hard. These are specifically designed for finishing.









mikey said:


> My point is that HSS will work better for most hobby class lathes but you have to know how to grind a tool and that takes time. Carbide tools will enable the new owner to get up and running so he can learn to use his lathe and they will work but we should acknowledge their limitations, don't you agree?



I've never really had a problem grinding hss bits, I just looked up angles in the machinery handbook and went to town. In my shop, I use HSS for specialty stuff, like custom profiles, or tasks carbide isn't good for, or can't do. For example a few weeks back i needed to single point a center to ensure it was perfect, so I took 5 minutes and ground a quick tool to do it.


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## Dan_S

65Cobra427SC said:


> Both my back and credit card are killing me after spending most of the last 3 days sitting and reading things over and over again. But I'm glad I got it done. Although I may not be finished here, I really want to thank everyone for the help. This is a great forum.



wait to you spend several hours in your shop leaning over the lathe, your back will really love you then.


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## mikey

Dan_S said:


> I think the insert size plays a part as to how hard it can be pushed as well. Take a look at this photo On the left is the back of my 21.51 pack and the right is the back of a 32.51 pack. Maybe they are mis labeled, but i haven't found any listing sfpm over 1000 sfpm, and I checked several ebay listings.
> 
> It's the same with these Sandvik insets I use on steel, and I got these directly from a popular US retailer. I've actually smoked 2 of these, because I pushed them to hard. These are specifically designed for finishing.
> 
> I've never really had a problem grinding hss bits, I just looked up angles in the machinery handbook and went to town. In my shop, I use HSS for specialty stuff, like custom profiles, or tasks carbide isn't good for, or can't do. For example a few weeks back i needed to single point a center to ensure it was perfect, so I took 5 minutes and ground a quick tool to do it.



Dan, I wonder if we might be talking about two different things here. Your responses imply that the listed cutting speed on the package is the RPM the insert is intended to turn at. If so, then you might want to look into this a bit more. On the other hand, I suppose it's a moot point since most lathes can't get that speed anyway.

Glad tool grinding is so easy for you. It took me awhile to get the hang of it and I'm still learning.


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## AirWolf

mikey said:


> My point is that HSS will work better for most hobby class lathes but you have to know how to grind a tool and that takes time. Carbide tools will enable the new owner to get up and running so he can learn to use his lathe and they will work but we should acknowledge their limitations, don't you agree?



That being said - If you want the quality finish of HSS and the the ease of using inserts (that you can easily sharpen on a whetstone) - I highly suggest you take a look at Arthur R Warner tool kits  - http://www.arwarnerco.com

A guy named Bob Pastor with the handle "The Viper" (a top notch machinist who builds and shoots 1,000 yard benchrest barrels) has a youtube video of each of the tools kits.  



.
He also has some other machining videos you should check out.

I was fortunate to be invited to his shop and he uses these HSS tools even on his very large lathe which surprised me. (I actually ended up spending an entire day with him - absolutely amazing guy and shop - he had me working with him a bit on his projects! Memorable day for me!)

I have the following kits that Bob advised me would handle 98% of anything I would ever need to do on a lathe -   9   14   16   18  20  24  27

Hope I didn't add more angst to your already aching head! We have all been through it.. it gets a bit easier but it never ends does it guys.. ;-)


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## 65Cobra427SC

Nooooo! All 26 kits are from Arthur R Warner Co, and they're only an hour away from me. I'll be sitting here for weeks trying to decide which ones to get. I know... I'll just go there in the morning and buy them ALL! Yeah... that's the ticket... I'll buy every last one of them.


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## AirWolf

And if you want a really great vice - Glacern has them 50% off until midnight tonight!!

The 5"   *GSV-550    *is perfect!

https://www.glacern.com/deals


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## Dan_S

mikey said:


> Glad tool grinding is so easy for you. It took me awhile to get the hang of it and I'm still learning.



I'd chalk it up to upbringing. My great grandfather was a cabinet maker, my grandfather was a electrician/big industry engineer/mechanic, my uncle is a mechanical/electrical engineer, & my dad started out life as a tool & die guy before he switched over to making steel, instead of working it. I was trained as a physicist, but work as a software engineer. So I pick up pretty much everything math and science related pretty quickly because it's been part of my every day life since i was a baby. Just don't ask me to spell anything, or have good grammar, because I absolutely suck at it.


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## mikey

Good suggestion, AirWolf. I have their 3/8" turning set and the 3/8" boring bar and they are well made. Its really nice that the inserts can be sharpened because they're relatively expensive. Good company, good tools. These tools will also take carbide inserts and ARW will tell you what will fit.


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## JR49

AirWolf said:


> And if you want a really great vice - Glacern has them 50% off until midnight tonight!!
> 
> The 5" *GSV-550 *is perfect!



YES,  great suggestion AirWolf, and on a side note THANK YOU for,,  well ,, you now why.  Look for a  post telling all, coming soon.   JR49


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## 65Cobra427SC

Looks like Enco extended it's Cyber Monday discount through today. CYBER gives you 25% off. MONDAY gives you free shipping.


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## NCjeeper

How does that saying go.........If you want to become a millionaire start out with 2 million and take up machining.


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## pepi

Question,

I am purchasing  the PM 747 bench mill. 

The question is the GMT GSV-550 and Swivel base to much for this mill


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## AirWolf

pepi said:


> Question,
> 
> I am purchasing  the PM 747 bench mill.
> 
> The question is the GMT GSV-550 and Swivel base to much for this mill




I think you would get a better response if you start a new thread asking this question.


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## AirWolf

NCjeeper said:


> How does that saying go.........If you want to become a millionaire start out with 2 million and take up machining.



Hilarious...but I'm believing it!!!


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## pepi

AirWolf said:


> I think you would get a better response if you start a new thread asking this question.



Ok thanks I will try that, got 2 hours to decide ... Thanks for the suggestion


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## 4GSR

Guys,

This was a great thread, but it is getting way off topic.  Let's get it back on track or it will end.

All of the off topic discussions talked about, good stuff, but it needs to be placed in it's own threads if you want to talk about it.


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## 65Cobra427SC

Well, my ordering experience had turned into a complete nightmare thanks to ENCO.

So far I've been the most impressed with Shars. I placed two orders, both were shipped and contained all the items I ordered, plus one is due to be delivered today. I didn't have a problem with the shipping cost... not cheap but not out of line either. One order contained 11 items and was 23 lbs... shipping was $28.81. The other order contained 8 items and was 27 lbs... shipping was $26.74. Also, even though I mentioned earlier two items didn't get the 20% discount, that was correct as the discount didn't apply to Edge Technology items and it said so on their website. Considering their prices were much cheaper than Enco, I plan to order from then again.

Grizzly falls in the middle. I ordered 3 items, 2 were shipped but the Boring Bar Set is on backorder. I don't have an immediate use for it but hopefully it won't take long. My only real complaint is their prices. I thought the Glanze 1/2" Turning Tool set was overpriced but the price of the Boring Bar Set made up for it, assuming it still arrives. It would have been nice to have a discount code for them but I just couldn't find any in time.

Enco was a nightmare... a complete nightmare... and it's not over. Here is the story...

I finalized the list of items I needed from Enco after I placed my orders with Shars and Grizzly. The list consisted of 15 model numbers for 18 items total. Just prior to checkout, I entered each discount code and clicked on the Apply box per their email. In both cases I didn't receive any acknowledgements or errors, so I completed checkout thinking the discounts would be applied near the end of the checkout process. Turns out that didn't happen... it simply processed the order without any discount at all. So instead of a $266.47 invoice, I ended up with a $355.29 invoice.

I called customer service and the person I spoke with claimed he had to create a new invoice from scratch. Didn't think anything of it figuring we make a new order and he cancels the original. What I thought odd, is I had to read every part number to him over the phone. But what do I know... so I did exactly that and when he finished, he read off the total. I didn't have the correct total in front of me but the new amount was much less than the original.

After we hung up, I went online and reviewed the new order... the total was $293.95. Checked it and found out there were three items that didn't receive the 25% discount... so the total should have been $266.47. If it was a couple dollars I would have just let it go, but not for $26.78. I was so ****** I had to let this go for a day figuring even a credit to my account would be good enough.

Yeah, that's bad... but it gets worse... MUCH worse.

I called today, spoke with a woman at customer service, and found out they processed BOTH orders, each one arriving in multiple boxes. She gives me some tracking numbers and tries to tell me I either have to refuse the boxes "for the incorrect order" or return them. Now how the heck am I going to know which boxes are for the correct order and which ones aren't? I can't tell from the tracking numbers.

So I check my credit card transactions and the charge for $293.95 is removed and a new charge for $355.29 is added. Now I have absolutely NO CLUE what is going on.


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## Dan_S

Customer Service is the bane of my existence, I can only really recall one or two I've ever dealt with that i felt good about after i hung up the phone.


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## 65Cobra427SC

I called Enco yet again. This time I pressed "2" for Accounting and Billing Inquiries, which connected me with someone in New York. The biggest advantage was talking with someone who actually understands the invoicing, shipping and billing process. So we reviewed both invoices which helped clarify things and put us on the same page. Bottom line is the first support person incorrectly reconstructed another Order which explains why everyone else was giving wrong information.

When an order is placed, it creates a Packing Slip Number showing your entire order, prices, etc. Later it may get broken down into different Packing Slip Numbers showing which items get shipped together vs. others that need shipped separately or later due to a backorder. As the orders are packed and shipped, it establishes a Shipping Date, Tracking Number and Invoice Number for each shipment. As they are completed, the Status changes overnight from 'In Process' to 'Invoiced'. Once everything on the Order is Invoiced, then it's finished.

The first Order wasn't cancelled so each order has three Packing Slip Numbers with the same items but different prices. It looks like shipping realized this so we don't think I'm being sent duplicate items. But things are a mess. For example, the bulk of my items were shipped based on the Invoice under the 2nd Order which shows a Shipping Date and Tracking Number) but billed under  on the 1st Order (and obviously because it shows a higher amount). So Tracking Numbers and Invoice Numbers are scattered between both Orders.

We are thinking (hoping?) all Invoices on both orders will be Invoiced tonight so I'm to call him tomorrow. Once they are all Invoiced we can figure everything out and credit my charge card. So the nightmare may not be over.


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## housedad

That sucks!   Crud like that does happen and when it does it just snowballs every time it seems.  Frustration. 
I made orders with Enco a couple of times this week and they have gone in without a hitch so far.  Some of the stuff is already in from last Friday orders.  

I hope you get it all straightened out soon.


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## housedad

As far as Enco vs Shars,  I have bought items from Enco here  and there through the years since about 1980.  I was never dissapointed with what I bought, including Enco brands.  Heck, I still have a Enco branded 0-3 digit micrometer set that I bought back in the early 90's that holds tolerances on my Starrett standards to this day.  (go figure, the Chinese stuff they sell started decent and got worse through the years!)  I guess every business has it's Issues.

I started purchasing from Shars last year.  So far I am pleased with the purchases, but I don't generally  buy the cheapest grade of stuff the have, either.  I wanted a tailstock and indexing plates for my 12" Phase II rotary table.  Looking carefully at the shars site, I saw they sold what looked like a close copy of the same table, and they had a duplicate of the tailstock and the indexing plates.   So I made the order and the parts came in today.  I was pleasantly surprised to find that the plywood box for the tailstock and the cardboard box for the index plates were labeled "Phase II"!!!  and at just a bit more than half the cost of Enco even on sale and discounts.


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## 65Cobra427SC

YOU KNOW THAT SAYING? JUST WHEN YOU THINK THINGS CAN'T POSSIBLY GET ANY WORSE????

THE ONLY good news is both orders are finally done being invoiced.
THE BAD NEWS is they made more shipments. Now I'm being sent DOUBLE OF EVERYTHING!!!

Apparently there is some sort of connection between ENCO and MSC because I'm now getting notifications from UPS of deliveries from MSC as well as ENCO. Some of the MSC tracking numbers match the ones from ENCO but others don't. Between ENCO and MSC I have about 10 Packages being delivered. WTF?


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