# New Counter-shaft Bushings



## chpjr (Mar 21, 2019)

Hello,

I bought Oilite bearings for the counter-shaft spindle on my 12" Craftsman.  I found a part number searching this forum.   I had a couple of questions about them though.


Do you think they should be soaked in oil before installation?
The old bearings have a hole drilled in them where the oil cup is located.  Is that necessary for the Oilite bearings, or will the oil seep through the bearing material?

Thanks,

chpjr


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## Rooster (Mar 21, 2019)

Greetings, when i replaced the ones on my 618 i pre-soaked them, i did not drill them and they never get warm even after 3 hours steady use.


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## Cooter Brown (Mar 21, 2019)

If you really don't want to drill the holes you should be fine just installing them as they are..... Oil should penetrate the bushings during use....


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## chpjr (Mar 21, 2019)

Thanks for the replies.


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## Cooter Brown (Mar 21, 2019)

chpjr said:


> Thanks for the replies.



Just make sure that you are using the right oil and not something heavy like way oil, that might not pass through the bushings....


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## chpjr (Mar 21, 2019)

What would be considered heavy oil?  I was thinking something like motor oil (10W-30, or something like that).  Is there something better to use?


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## Cooter Brown (Mar 22, 2019)

chpjr said:


> What would be considered heavy oil?  I was thinking something like motor oil (10W-30, or something like that).  Is there something better to use?



Never use motor oil on a machine..... Motor oil has detergents in it.... Use light spindle oil like Mobil Velocite #10, or Mobil DTE 24..... Even air tool oil would be better than motor oil....


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## NortonDommi (Mar 22, 2019)

Try putting them in a vacuum seal freezer bag with the oil and vacuuming them and leave overnight.  Use any good hydraulic oil.


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## chpjr (Mar 22, 2019)

Okay, thanks.  Air tool and hydraulic oil I have.  I'll look for the other recommended ones.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Mar 22, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> Never use motor oil on a machine..... Motor oil has detergents in it.... Use light spindle oil like Mobil Velocite #10, or Mobil DTE 24..... Even air tool oil would be better than motor oil....



The main reason to Not use motor oil with detergent additives is because of the way they attract and absorb moisture!  Basically the amount of detergent additives used is directly correlated to how hygroscopic (water absorbing) the oil will be!  This collection of moisture will eventually cause your machine to start corroding and forming sludge in the oil reservoirs and feed system.

With that said, Motor Oil without the additives such as, "STP non detergent motor oil" that is made for 1930s and earlier antique cars can be used in a pinch if needed.


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## yendor (Mar 22, 2019)

Off the Topic by a bit but.. here goes.
The Atlas 10" Lathes IE: My QCGB-42 uses Needle Bearings on the Counter Shaft.
Is there any reason why I couldn't/shouldn't make a holder part and press in Oillite Bushings as replacements?
These older style needle bearings use the screw cap grease feeders and they basically spray grease over time and the walls.
I'd like to reduce the mess a little - that and my shaft has some seroius scores in it and not having to bore out a new repalcement and thread for the caps would make it a simpler project.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Mar 22, 2019)

Keep in mind that oilite bushings, from what i remember have an RPM limit of around 3000-3500rpm!  Other then that i dont see where it would cause any other issues that you dont already currently have so if they end up not being what you wanted you would be no worse off then you currently are and learned something in the process IMHO.


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## chpjr (Mar 22, 2019)

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> The main reason to Not use motor oil with detergent additives is because of the way they attract and absorb moisture!  Basically the amount of detergent additives used is directly correlated to how hygroscopic (water absorbing) the oil will be!  This collection of moisture will eventually cause your machine to start corroding and forming sludge in the oil reservoirs and feed system.
> 
> With that said, Motor Oil without the additives such as, "STP non detergent motor oil" that is made for 1930s and earlier antique cars can be used in a pinch if needed.



Thanks.  That's interesting, I didn't realize detergent oils absorbed water.  I've been using that type of oil not realized what it could do.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 22, 2019)

Oilite is merely a common brand of porous bushings.  There are MANY different types, made from different materials, with different porosity, ones that come previously impregnated with any of many different lubricants, oil, wax, grease, Teflon, just to name a few.  Every one is designed for a different application -- load, speed, ambient temperature, shaft materials, etc.  They are not generic, though many different companies make similar bushings for similar jobs.  You really need to know what you are working with, especially with higher speeds, higher loads, higher temperatures, and uncommon shaft materials.  There are online data sites from some of the manufacturers, and they are free.  Use them!

There are also rules to follow for supplying lubricant to the bushings.  Some are simpler than others, depending on the details.

Here is some information for the original:




__





						Oilite - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



which is still available, but just the tip of the iceberg.  Most of the ones seen in local stores today are Asian imports, with little or no data on applications, lubrication, load, or anything else.

The right combination of bushing, lube, load, and mounting can make for a bushing that lasts near forever with proper care.  Picking an unknown with no idea of how to best use it can often result in early failure.


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## chpjr (Mar 22, 2019)

I took another look at the part number on McMaster-Carr, it specifies SAE 30 oil as the lubricant.  It had load ratings and temps as well.  The bushing spec is 2250lbs at 60rpm.  What I don't know is what loads the bushings will see on the lathe.  I have to go out and measure the pulleys to figure out the countershaft speed, but the motor is 1750, so I'm guessing the countershaft will be more than 60.


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## Round in circles (Mar 23, 2019)

yendor said:


> Off the Topic by a bit but.. here goes.
> The Atlas 10" Lathes IE: My QCGB-42 uses Needle Bearings on the Counter Shaft.
> Is there any reason why I couldn't/shouldn't make a holder part and press in Oillite Bushings as replacements?
> These older style needle bearings use the screw cap grease feeders and they basically spray grease over time and the walls.
> I'd like to reduce the mess a little - that and my shaft has some seroius scores in it and not having to bore out a new repalcement and thread for the caps would make it a simpler project.


 Yendor , 
Do your spindle bearings have grease nipples,  cups or screw down grease caps as the lubrication method .

I thought my Sphere ( Atlas specially made  for the UK in WWII ) was the only lathe out the Atlas stable that had them


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## Superburban (Mar 23, 2019)

In general, things designed to hold oil, cannot be over oiled. So things like the oilite bushings, and chains, I drop in the oil bottle when I get them (assuming they are not for my shelf stock). and if they soak for a day, or forty, they should be ready to go.


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## yendor (Mar 24, 2019)

Round in circles said:


> Yendor ,
> Do your spindle bearings have grease nipples,  cups or screw down grease caps as the lubrication method .
> 
> I thought my Sphere ( Atlas specially made  for the UK in WWII ) was the only lathe out the Atlas stable that had them



My countershaft has the Screw Down Grease Filled caps that as you tighten them force grease thru a center hole bored in the shaft to the needle bearings.
The needle bearing holders have FELT Washer in the Collars that hold them centered on the shaft.
The grease eventually gets thrown out from those felt washers and marks a stripe on the walls.

The newer 12" Atlas seem to use an Oillite bearing in place of the needle bearings on the same shaft part.
I'm thinking there shouldn't be any reason why I couldn't make a holder part and press in the olilite bearings and do away with those old style grease caps.

As I mentioned my shaft has some scoring where the needle bearings run. 
Not too bad but enough to make me want to replace.
If I go the Oillite bearing route I wouldn't have to thread the ends for the caps, and could elminiate the need to bore a center hole and smaller cross hole in the shaft for the grease supply channel.


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## wa5cab (Mar 25, 2019)

Although the Atlas 10" countershaft assemblies used separable straight roller bearings (not needle bearings) over their entire production life, the 6" and 12" machines introduced only a few years later always used Oilite bushings.  So I see no reason why you couldn't convert your 10" to use them.  However, unless you make an externally similar bushing carrier from scratch, you will need to make a steel bushing to press into the outer race with an ID to properly match the bushings (you will also need to drill the outer race and steel busing for an oil cup).  I do not think that you are going to find any commercially available sintered bronze bushings with anywhere near the wall thickness required to fit the ID of the races and the OD of the countershaft.

The approximate maximum RPM of the countershaft on the Atlas 10" with a 1725 RPM motor is about 980 RPM.  I didn't bother to get out the Machinery's Handbook and look up the correction factor for OD to PD but just assumed it was about 0.30".

And the SAE 20 ND oil or equivalent (ISO 68) oil that you should be using almost everywhere else on the machine will be fine there.


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 26, 2019)

yendor said:


> Off the Topic by a bit but.. here goes.
> The Atlas 10" Lathes IE: My QCGB-42 uses Needle Bearings on the Counter Shaft.
> Is there any reason why I couldn't/shouldn't make a holder part and press in Oillite Bushings as replacements?
> These older style needle bearings use the screw cap grease feeders and they basically spray grease over time and the walls.
> I'd like to reduce the mess a little - that and my shaft has some seroius scores in it and not having to bore out a new repalcement and thread for the caps would make it a simpler project.


A really nice project is to make new bearing carriers and use pressed in sealed ball bearings, Clean quiet and you should never have to touch them.


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## wa5cab (Mar 27, 2019)

That's a nice mod.  I take it that no one makes a sealed ball bearing with 5/8" bore and an OD small enough to fit inside the original bearing outer races?


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 28, 2019)

wa5cab said:


> That's a nice mod.  I take it that no one makes a sealed ball bearing with 5/8" bore and an OD small enough to fit inside the original bearing outer races?


That was a good question. I just measured one of the old bearing carriers and the hole is 1.25 with a wall thickness of .3 or so. I would say plenty of meat there to open it up a little to leave a shoulder to seat the bearings against  or you could put a thin spacer inside to seat against. I did a quick search for 5/8 id by 1.25 od bearings and came up empty  However 5/8 by 1-3/8 is a common go kart and lawn mower etc. size and can be had in packs of 10 for about $16 from Amazon in both snap ring and flanged. Should work and still leave plenty of wall for the amount of stress they are probably under. I have a few of those carriers in the parts box and will have to give it a try. (won't be as pretty though}
HWF


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 28, 2019)

I almost ordered the 5/8 by 1-3/8 bearings when I thought I should measure the shafts I have and discovered both of my 10" machines have 3/4 shafts.
Amazon has 3/4 by 1-3/8 flanged bearings for about the same price. I ordered some and will see how it works out .


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## wa5cab (Mar 28, 2019)

Harold,

Thanks for alerting me to a mistake of mainly omission.  Some time ago, someone had wanted to know the highest countershaft RPM, given the motor RPM.  To make it easy for me to find in the future, I asked here and on the A-C groups.io list for the OD of the two pulley steps.  And just marked up the two OD figures on the reverse engineered drawing of the motor pulley, 10-428.  As the diameter of the hole didn't matter to the ratio, I didn't ask for it.  And the other day when the question of a substitute for the straight roller bearings came up, the drawing still had the 5/8" showing for the ID.  And without thinking about where the figure came from, I used it.  Thanks for catching that.

Before making a similar mistake by assuming facts not in evidence, was the 0.3" wall thickness that you mentioned measured at each end of the original outer races?  Or was the measurement taken in the middle?  If the latter, what is it at the ends?


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 28, 2019)

That was at the outer edges, the center is a little thicker though I didn't measure as it doesn't matter. I will have to open up the carriers by 1/8 total which will still leave about .265 wall . The bearings I ordered have a small flange but its size wasn't given. I figure if possible I will turn a step for them to fit inside or shorten the carrier the thickness of the flange on each end. If it works out I will draw it up and give part numbers.
HWF


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 29, 2019)

Gotta love Amazon Prime. Ordered the bearings 3:15 pm yesterday , delivered today at 2:10 pm ,free shipping. Sure beats the "old days" when all mail order was 3-6 weeks + S&H. They look like they will work fine.


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## wa5cab (Mar 29, 2019)

OK.  Thanks.  I would bore the ends for the ball bearings and counter bore for the flanges, so that the overall length remains the same as the original.  An expanding mandrel would probably be the best way to hold the races.


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 30, 2019)

wa5cab said:


> OK.  Thanks.  I would bore the ends for the ball bearings and counter bore for the flanges, so that the overall length remains the same as the original.  An expanding mandrel would probably be the best way to hold the races.


We think alike on this.  I made a mandrel that was a light press fit and drilled and tapped an M5 hole in the bottom of one of the mounting dimples. Not sure if the set screw was needed as the cast iron cuts like butter. I just made the one so far but when I get the other one done I will mount on a spare shaft and see how it performs. The inner part of the race sticks out about an 1/8" but I did not compensate for it as there is plenty of extra room on the shaft. Here are the bearings I used.





						Amazon.com : XiKe 10 Pack Flanged Ball Bearing ID 3/4" x OD 1-3/8", Lawn Mower, Wheelbarrows, Carts & Hand Trucks Wheel Hub for Suitable, Replacement for Ariens, MTD, JD, Snapper, Toro, Marathon ＆ AYP Etc. : Garden & Outdoor
					

Amazon.com : XiKe 10 Pack Flanged Ball Bearing ID 3/4" x OD 1-3/8", Lawn Mower, Wheelbarrows, Carts & Hand Trucks Wheel Hub for Suitable, Replacement for Ariens, MTD, JD, Snapper, Toro, Marathon ＆ AYP Etc. : Garden & Outdoor



					www.amazon.com
				



These are rated at 1500 lbs and 4600 rpm.


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## wa5cab (Mar 30, 2019)

Looks good to me.


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## RandyMcNally (Sep 15, 2020)

Wierd Harold said:


> A really nice project is to make new bearing carriers and use pressed in sealed ball bearings, Clean quiet and you should never have to touch them.


@Wierd Harold I've been fantasizing about this project all summer.  It's been too hot down here to be in the garage, but temps are dropping.  I'm ready to order some parts!

I think I'd like to make the carriers rather than refit the OEMs.  I'm a newb & I think I can work-hold new bar stock far easier than the castings.  Plus, I like the ability to return a machine to stock parts/condition.

*Any chance I can get some information from you? *

I don't mean to wear you out, so let me say: I'd be grateful for _any_ info even if you can't answer all my questions.  But if you're feeling chatty, I'd take anything you could tell me.  I'm not kidding about being a newb, so even basic info might be valuable to me.

1. Bearing part number?
2. Bearing carrier dimensions?
a. Major OD (outer; on each axial end)​b. Minor OD (inner; where the dimples are)​c. Major ID (bearings; I'm assuming you'd base this on actual bearing OD measurements?  If so, what's the press fit variance?)​d. Minor ID (inner; the ID beneath the dimples)​e. Bearing seat depth (I'm assuming this would equal bearing width?  Is the seat bored to a flat 90º shoulder?)​f. Carrier Length (axially)​3. Carrier material type?  Did you blue it or anything?
4. Is this setup still working for you?  Any hindsight revisions?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you, sir.

edit: I feel like I should say my machine is an Atlas 10" QC54.  I'm assuming your's is an Atlas 10" QC, also.  Your machine looks _nearly_ identical to mine, except your spindle looks to have independent gear covers, where mine has the flip-up cover over the gears & pulley. And are those grease xerks in front of each spindle gear? You've got some fancy customizations, don't you?   And man, I like those nice, fat dials!  Ok, I'll stop.


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## Round in circles (Oct 24, 2020)

Wierd Harold said:


> A really nice project is to make new bearing carriers and use pressed in sealed ball bearings, Clean quiet and you should never have to touch them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've had the round stock ,  four bearing & 20 inches of precision ground drill rod for a while now . The bearing will have to be a press fit on the shaft ..which could be "interesting ". 

How did you get the driven pulley assembly off the shaft . Mine's made of Bakelite so are the speed change pullies , they have what appears to be a tapered pin knocked through them to secure them  .  I'm a bit scared to start pin & punching at it in case if slips a bit and breaks the Bakelite collars. Is it indeed a tapered pin or just an interference fit parallel pin or do yours have Allen headed  grub screws to secure them to the shaft ?


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## wa5cab (Oct 25, 2020)

Yours must be an Acorn.  All of the Atlas original pulleys were either Zamak or Aluminum.  We don't unfortunately have any Acorn parts manuals that I know of.  Some of the Atlas pulleys have set (grub) screws and some have Woodruff keys in the shaft with the pulley(s) positioned longitudinally by two collars with Allen set screws.  None that I know of had either tapered groove pins or roll pins.  

With groove pins (which are tapered), you can usually ID the small end by the small groove that will be visible only on the large end.


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## Round in circles (Oct 25, 2020)

wa5cab said:


> Yours must be an Acorn.  All of the Atlas original pulleys were either Zamak or Aluminum.  We don't unfortunately have any Acorn parts manuals that I know of.  Some of the Atlas pulleys have set (grub) screws and some have Woodruff keys in the shaft with the pulley(s) positioned longitudinally by two collars with Allen set screws.  None that I know of had either tapered groove pins or roll pins.
> 
> With groove pins (which are tapered), you can usually ID the small end by the small groove that will be visible only on the large end.


 
Thanks for that Robert .
It looks like I'll have to get the big magnifying glass out and some ether ( Cold start spray ) cleaning fluid and do a bit of careful scraping & cleaning .
 The end stops  on the counter shaft are as you describe . The driven pulley  pair  have  a pinned to the shaft steel dog drive , that will also have to come off if I cannot  put the new bearings & holders on from the RH end of the shaft .


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## wa5cab (Oct 27, 2020)

If you can, post a side view photo of the Acorn equivalent to the Atlas 10-107X Countershaft Spindle Assembly.  And point out where there are pins, as the Atlas version has a Woodruff key to drive the cone pulley and has no pins anywhere.  Be sure, before removing any pins, to mark the shaft and the pinned part so that you can rotate that or those parts to the original orientation as 180 out may not work.


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## Round in circles (Nov 5, 2020)

wa5cab said:


> Yours must be an Acorn.  All of the Atlas original pulleys were either Zamak or Aluminum.  We don't unfortunately have any Acorn parts manuals that I know of.  Some of the Atlas pulleys have set (grub) screws and some have Woodruff keys in the shaft with the pulley(s) positioned longitudinally by two collars with Allen set screws.  None that I know of had either tapered groove pins or roll pins.
> 
> With groove pins (which are tapered), you can usually ID the small end by the small groove that will be visible only on the large end.


  Robert ,

Thanks for the above post .. I got to deep cleaning the cross shaft with it removed.


I found the grub screws like you said .   It's only the steel dog  being driven by the Bakelite drive pulley that is  held with a taper pin . The end float & main stepped pulley  movement stops are as you said grub screws.   Found the small end of the taper pin once all  the crud was scratched out & cleaned with a volatile cleaner .

Next step is for me to turn the two bearing carriers & press fit them with two ball bearings each  , possibly on the old cross shaft axle for I'm guessing the actual shaft has a key to drive the main stepped Bakelite pulley .


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## wa5cab (Nov 6, 2020)

OK.  Good luck.


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