# Made in America - once upon a ..



## graham-xrf (Aug 10, 2022)

I am British, but my favourite old-time precision iron that I play with happens to be from the *South Bend Machine Tool* company. I am conscious that I, along with many others, have become somewhat seduced by Asian imports. Out of "Asian", I tend to mean China, thus excluding Taiwan, and India. Now why do I do that? Biased eh! ?

This forum has a spectacular list of brands categories, and I don't know much about most of them, but I do wonder how many still exist and supply the USA, UK, and Europe, even if not so affordably. 

I can see a dandy nice lathe from *Kent USA (TRL-13 x 40)* I have no idea what it costs!
*Emco* from Germany have nice stuff too. I bet that would be expensive!

I think our favourite machine tool makers have been taken over, altered their business to serve specialized modern high tech CNC markets, or just died out. Names like *LeBlond* and *Seneca Falls* are just not there anymore.  Be pleased that *Cincinnati* are still there, though I think even their smallest might be oversized for us. They make the kind with welded stairs built onto the cross slide apron so the operator can step up onto the tool stage.

*Boxford* - a UK brand, starting out making a re-worked clone of South Bend, are still around, and I think all their stuff is now CNC.

Here at HM, if somebody wants to go for new, I guess it's *Precision Matthews* leading the pack, and I am not sure how big that pack is.


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## vtcnc (Aug 10, 2022)

Don't forget Wells-Index









						Wells-Index Milling Machines
					






					www.wells-index.com


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## Aukai (Aug 10, 2022)




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## Aaron_W (Aug 10, 2022)

On the smaller side you have Sherline and Taig (aka Peatol in the UK) made in the USA. Over on your side of the Atlantic, Myford and Cowells are still available and made in the UK. Waebco in Germany and Ceriani in Italy.


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## rabler (Aug 10, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> Here at HM, if somebody wants to go for new, I guess it's *Precision Matthews* leading the pack, and I am not sure how big that pack is


Precision Matthews certainly has a good reputation, but I don't really think of them as a true manufacturer in the classic sense that Leblond, or South Bend, etc were.   Those companies designed and built a significant portion of the machine.  My understanding is that PM doesn't build a significant percentage of the components.  It seems to me that they bundle accessories on base machines made by other companies, and provide some quality control, parts and support.   Of course they get to put their branding on the machine. Grizzly is another "manufacturer" that strikes me as falling in the same category, although my rough sense is they are a notch below PM when it comes to machine tools and their roots are woodworking tools.

Machining tools are in a somewhat unique position in that the skills to maintain and refurbish old machines has a large crossover with the skills to operate them.  This has kept a lot of the old names around even if they no longer build machines.


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## Jim F (Aug 10, 2022)

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					leblondusa.com


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## vtcnc (Aug 10, 2022)

rabler said:


> Precision Matthews certainly has a good reputation, but I don't really think of them as a true manufacturer in the classic sense that Leblond, or South Bend, etc were.   Those companies designed and built a significant portion of the machine.  My understanding is that PM doesn't build a significant percentage of the components.  It seems to me that they bundle accessories on base machines made by other companies, and provide some quality control, parts and support.   Of course they get to put their branding on the machine. Grizzly is another "manufacturer" that strikes me as falling in the same category, although my rough sense is they are a notch below PM when it comes to machine tools and their roots are woodworking tools.
> 
> Machining tools are in a somewhat unique position in that the skills to maintain and refurbish old machines has a large crossover with the skills to operate them.  This has kept a lot of the old names around even if they no longer build machines.


Incidentally, Grizzly now owns South Bend.


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## mmcmdl (Aug 10, 2022)

Aukai said:


>


Hm..........................Am I keeping you up too late at night again Mike ?  I did get logged in last night for the first time after being back !


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## graham-xrf (Aug 10, 2022)

I


vtcnc said:


> Incidentally, Grizzly now owns South Bend.


Slightly more complicated than that. Yes  indeed South Bend once sold somewhere between 45% and 50% of lathes in USA.

South Bend became part of LeBlond Ltd, owned by Makino. South Bend was sold to an investor who had founded Grizzly Industrial. New South Bend machines are sold via the Grizzly dealership network. The machines are a bit "Frankenstein", but in a good sense, sourcing some stuff from Taiwan, mixed with spindles from Germany, parts from Japan, etc. seeking to get to higher standards while retaining (some) affordability.

I happen to stumble across some relevant history, perhaps more about portable tools, from *Stumpy Nubs*.
The route seems to be "death by Rockwell" --> Black and Decker /Stanley

What REALLY happened to iconic tool brands Porter Cable, Delta, Craftsman


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## mmcmdl (Aug 10, 2022)

Plenty of big old iron machines are floating around still . Most shops around here only do production on CNCs due to the lack of qualified machinists available . There are programmers , set-up people and button pushers . The older guys who used to perform all these tasks have all retired or quit the trade as I myself did . Most hobbiests don't want or need a lathe larger than maybe a 12" or 13" lathe which limits what they can get as far as quality . I find the Hardinge or Monarch to be the quality standard . Tough to find them , and expensive when you do .


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## graham-xrf (Aug 10, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Plenty of big old iron machines are floating around still . Most shops around here only do production on CNCs due to the lack of qualified machinists available . There are programmers , set-up people and button pushers . The older guys who used to perform all these tasks have all retired or quit the trade as I myself did . Most hobbiests don't want or need a lathe larger than maybe a 12" or 13" lathe which limits what they can get as far as quality . I find the Hardinge or Monarch to be the quality standard . Tough to find them , and expensive when you do .


Yes - some time ago, I had already concluded that for you, you would only really stay happy if you owned from among the best!


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## mmcmdl (Aug 10, 2022)

__





						Danaher Corporation - Company Profile, Information, Business Description, History, Background Information on Danaher Corporation
					

History of Danaher Corporation



					www.referenceforbusiness.com
				




As far as tools go ................................. I work for them , and it's hard to keep track of what they own now .


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## graham-xrf (Aug 10, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> Don't forget Wells-Index
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That link is drooling - almost machine porn!
Serious machines, with real weight, and somewhat out of my league.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 10, 2022)

I dunno... I dreamt of resurrecting big iron in my home shop/museum, but whenever I got close enough to inspect those machines I ran away screaming.  You just can't expect something that represents a capital investment, embodies the means of production, and is also 75 years old to have had some kind of pampered life.  Those machines were squeezed for every copper penny of profit by their manufacturing capitalist owners during their useful lifetime, and that lifetime is now oil-soaked dust in the chip tray.  I ended up buying non-asian foreign made machines from the last quarter century for my shop.  The Lagun is Spanish, its electrics are French.  The Nardini is Brazilian.  Both companies still make machinery.  What's better is that I found good machines with straight ways and lots of useful life in them.  And I can work in English or Metric, thread for both without change gears, they have modern electric cabinets with TEFC motors, asbestos-free construction, and fully enclosed guards.  I feel good about my choices every day, no regrets this time around.


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## mmcmdl (Aug 10, 2022)

So I just picked up a Lagun-Republic lathe that is very nice , pretty stout being a 14" x 60" , and I've owned plenty of FTV-1s and 2s mills . All are on the top of my go to lists . We had a few Clausing-Nardini lathes at one place that were nice also . I've seen Clausing Metosas , Clausing BP clones ( which I didn't like ) , but I think these are all owned by Bridgeport these days . I just find it hard to keep up these days . Although I'm sure outdated these days , the Makino CNC lathes and mills were my favorites back in the days .

Edit ........BP owns Hardinge .


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## pontiac428 (Aug 10, 2022)

Clausing-Metosa is a different beast, but there are good Romi-Brazil made Clausing-BP-DoAll lathes out there.  They are pretty nice, but they are not equal amongst each other, because each parent brand had their own specs and price points.  For example, the Clausing and BP lathes had carriage stops on a bar like Takisawa (probably originated elsewhere) where the Nardini has an extra fifty parts in the carriage for its elaborate carriage drive system.  The BPs had plastic handwheels.  Stuff like that.  These were considered B-line machines, where customers can save a few bucks by buying an import over the domestic flagship models in the line.  Most of these are 14" and larger lathes, so really the upper end for home shops.

The Republic lathes were similar, made in China under Lagun-Republic supervision.  They are excellent machines, because the design specs they were built to were provided and verified by Lagun.  China is capable of good manufacturing, it just isn't common to see anybody really pay for it.  I think the Republic lathes are a great example of tightly controlled Asian manufacturing.  They were doing it pretty early, too.


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## savarin (Aug 10, 2022)

Its surprising who owns the plethora of power tools available today.








						Which Companies Actually Own Your Favorite Tool Brands? – Clever Creations
					

You might be surprised to learn that only a handful of companies dominate the hand & power tool market and own most popular brands. Find out more!




					clevercreations.org


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## vtcnc (Aug 10, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Edit ........BP owns Hardinge .


I think it is the other way around?


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## Manual Mac (Aug 11, 2022)

Well, Grizzly may own the name South Bend but they didn’t build my lathe.
but I guess I’m part of the problem, my 1978 Troy-Bill horse tiller was built in Troy, NY.
But it now has a HF Chinese engine.
so it goes.


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## graham-xrf (Aug 11, 2022)

Manual Mac said:


> Well, Grizzly may own the name South Bend but they didn’t build my lathe.
> but I guess I’m part of the problem, my 1978 Troy-Bill horse tiller was built in Troy, NY.
> But it now has a HF Chinese engine.
> so it goes.


Good Lord! You actually Chinezified an American kit _after_ it was manufactured!


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## vtcnc (Aug 11, 2022)

savarin said:


> Its surprising who owns the plethora of power tools available today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw this link some time ago and was amazed at how many brands are owned by so few players.


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## mmcmdl (Aug 11, 2022)

https://www.apextoolgroup.com/brands-faceting
		


Subsidiary of Danaher . Still , it's very hard to keep up to date .


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## mmcmdl (Aug 11, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> I think it is the other way around?


You DO know what time it is Bryan . I haven't woken up yet , or gone to sleep yet , or whatever way I'm heading .


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## vtcnc (Aug 11, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> You DO know what time it is Bryan . I haven't woken up yet , or gone to sleep yet , or whatever way I'm heading .


Sounds like it is going to be a good day!


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## great white (Aug 11, 2022)

Not surprising.

CNC means faster, cheaper, repeatable manufacturing, so thats the way companies chasing profit go. These machines are often outside a hobbiests available cash limits or space limits since companies will pay the big bucks to get the equipment meet production/profit targets. 

The decent “hobbiest” sized lathes of yesteryear don’t bring in the cash rewards for retailers that they used to, so anything in this category gets “cheapened” to produce more profit when sold.

Sadly, this is the way of the world with most things: when first released, things are exclusive and expensive, then they become “mainstream” and somewhat more affordable, then as whatever it is matures it gets skewed into professional grades and consumer grades. Consumer grades are almost always crap, due to trying to extract maximum profit at minimum costs.


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## rabler (Aug 11, 2022)

Oddly enough my vehicles, while ranging from 8 to 18 years old, were all bought new.  Tractor and excavator fall in that category too.  But I like working on the older lathes.  I've ended up with three Monarchs but some of that is just following a brand once started, as well as a couple of old surface grinders that need some TLC.  I'm slowly bringing them back to quality specs.  I guess for me the vehicles need to work as they are day to day essentials.  The machining stuff is a hobby, although that is becoming integrated with everything else.


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## hman (Aug 11, 2022)

great white said:


> Not surprising.
> 
> CNC means faster, cheaper, repeatable manufacturing, so thats the way companies chasing profit go. These machines are often outside a hobbiests available cash limits or space limits since companies will pay the big bucks to get the equipment meet production/profit targets.



I recently bought a Taig 2019CR millimg machine.  Taig is located inChandler, AZ,  and manufactures their machine tools right here.  The MSRP for this mill is$1211, and I plan to "build it out" to full CNC, including a Centroid Acorn controller.  I'll re-use an old PC enclosure for the electronics and build a machine enclosure out of 8020 extrusions and Lexan panels.  My budget comes out to just a bit above $2700.  Not too bad for a home shop size, but very stout and accurate CNC mill.  



great white said:


> The decent “hobbiest” sized lathes of yesteryear don’t bring in the cash rewards for retailers that they used to, so anything in this category gets “cheapened” to produce more profit when sold.



Taig makes some nice small lathes, as well as mini mills   www.taigtools.com 


great white said:


> Sadly, this is the way of the world with most things: when first released, things are exclusive and expensive, then they become “mainstream” and somewhat more affordable, then as whatever it is matures it gets skewed into professional grades and consumer grades. Consumer grades are almost always crap, due to trying to extract maximum profit at minimum costs.


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## vtcnc (Aug 11, 2022)

hman said:


> I recently bought a Taig 2019CR millimg machine.  Taig is located inChandler, AZ,  and manufactures their machine tools right here.  The MSRP for this mill is$1211, and I plan to "build it out" to full CNC, including a Centroid Acorn controller.  I'll re-use an old PC enclosure for the electronics and build a machine enclosure out of 8020 extrusions and Lexan panels.  My budget comes out to just a bit above $2700.  Not too bad for a home shop size, but very stout and accurate CNC mill.
> 
> 
> 
> Taig makes some nice small lathes, as well as mini mills   www.taigtools.com


This exchange and overall discussion is one of the reasons I'm drawn to hobby machining. You could go out and buy a used Rong Fu and upgrade it for about $3000 if you are the real DIY type. Serves as a mid size mill for hobbyist, can do small parts and occasionally hog out some stainless to a certain degree.

The next guy will do what hman did for the same money, doesn't have the capacity, speed or rigidity of the mid-size upgraded Rong Fu, but he does have a sweet tabletop sized CNC machine that works extremely well for his application of small part machining.

Same price, different value. It is one of those subtle differences that makes our hobby so interesting.


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## Aukai (Aug 11, 2022)

Hand made in the USA ~3hrs work +1/2hr clean up. I was wondering if Mr. Hanson, or another CNC guru could tell me after programing what would the run time be for this on a CNC machine? It's a niche market, and I've sold 70-80 in a year in my local market, so a CNC might be un profitable.


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## vtcnc (Aug 11, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Hand made in the USA ~3hrs work +1/2hr clean up. I was wondering if Mr. Hanson, or another CNC guru could tell me after programing what would the run time be for this on a CNC machine? It's a niche market, and I've sold 70-80 in a year in my local market, so a CNC might be un profitable.


What is it?


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## pontiac428 (Aug 11, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> What is it?


It's a hand-held piscine attitude adjuster and combination ice bag reorganizer!


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## Aukai (Aug 11, 2022)

It's a purpose made fishing bat, short for tight quarters. Our ice for fishing comes in 50lb bags that accumulate a layer of solid ice on the bottom of the bag about an inch or more thick from melting and re freezing. The conventional bats sold do not last long before breaking apart. It will also dispatch fish on the deck to keep them from thrashing around.


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## Eyerelief (Aug 11, 2022)

We used to call them “priest”. Used to “administer the last rites”


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## Bone Head (Aug 11, 2022)

Possibly useful in "Social Athletic Events".


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## mmcmdl (Aug 12, 2022)

Mike , you could triple the price if you made it over to the little league world series coming up ! Or better yet , for keeping the kids and spouse in order around the house .  Being serious on the CNC time , if the bar would fit thru the spindle ................
cut bar 1" over finish length
mount in chuck , face and center drill one end
pull bar out and use tailstock live center
run profile canned cycle (G72) to rough and finish profile of bat
run profile cycle to form radius on bat handle end ( I'm old and can't remember the cycle # )
Straddle knurl the handle or bump knurl ( I have a very nice knurler for CNC , kinda of cool and definately very quick )
Remove bat and flip
G73 canned cycle for facing and radius on bat end



If the bar did not fit thru spindle , just face and center drill on manual lathe and proceed with the above .
Programming this bat would take less than 10 minutes
Machining would take 15 minutes TOPS , knurling being the longest operation .
Bypass the interlock on the lathe door and hit that baby with liquid soap and a scotch brite pad . ( you didn't hear that from me , I would never have done that )  ( the interlock that is ) a simple string bypasses the interlock allowing the spindle to run while door is open !

You going into production ? You need a programmer ? A CNC lathe ? How bout a shop helper ? 

Note . This would be on a slant bed CNC lathe with conversational programming .


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## Janderso (Aug 12, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Hand made in the USA ~3hrs work +1/2hr clean up. I was wondering if Mr. Hanson, or another CNC guru could tell me after programing what would the run time be for this on a CNC machine? It's a niche market, and I've sold 70-80 in a year in my local market, so a CNC might be un profitable.


Baseball Bats?


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## mmcmdl (Aug 12, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Hand made in the USA ~3hrs work +1/2hr clean up. I was wondering if Mr. Hanson, or another CNC guru could tell me after programing what would the run time be for this on a CNC machine? It's a niche market, and I've sold 70-80 in a year in my local market, so a CNC might be un profitable.


Found some old programs from the lathe . Makino Slant bed Count 15 with Fanuc 6MB and conversational programming abilities . Hand written and hand loaded in 15 minutes . Once in the puter , they are in . These were for the ABE contract which stands for Automatic Boresight Equipment . Berilliam (sp) so I had to suit up while machining . 

Programming is so easy a caveman could do it !


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## Aukai (Aug 12, 2022)

I absolutely have no inkling of how to do that. I can just barely do manual. What I wanted to know was how much time would the bat take to machine on a CNC, so I can be depressed on how long I'm taking


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## mmcmdl (Aug 12, 2022)

Aukai said:


> I absolutely have no inkling of how to do that. I can just barely do manual. What I wanted to know was how much time would the bat take to machine on a CNC, so I can be depressed on how long I'm taking


I said 15 minutes TOPS ! Any longer , a walk down the hall of shame is in order .  I have a book load of programming stuff here . No computer is neccesary . Simple math , some trig , but really simple . I could program it and run it before someone could set up a manual lathe !


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## Aukai (Aug 12, 2022)

Okay I thought the 15 min was to write up the code, and load it in the computer.


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