# What tools to buy?



## astjp2

So I am endeavoring into learning how to scrap and correct machines alignment.  I need to buy a scraper or make one, I need to get the tooling to clean up dovetails, what should I buy or look for?  Should I get dovetail cutters with replaceable bits or will the basic cutters work.  I have started with creating straight and flat surfaces on a milling table with a surface grinder, now I need to correct the ways....So I need to get/make the next tools to do this.  Tim


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## Erik Brewster

astjp2 said:


> So I am endeavoring into learning how to scrap and correct machines alignment.  I need to buy a scraper or make one, I need to get the tooling to clean up dovetails, what should I buy or look for?  Should I get dovetail cutters with replaceable bits or will the basic cutters work.  I have started with creating straight and flat surfaces on a milling table with a surface grinder, now I need to correct the ways....So I need to get/make the next tools to do this.  Tim



As for milling cutters to roughly correct things, I think a fly cutter with some high speed steel bits is fine for correcting a way. You should only be taking a tiny bit off, and you shouldn't worry about cutting time. The setup time will be the big one, not the cutting time. If you want carbide, I would recommend just grinding some brazed carbide bits. If you go with inserts and you find they aren't the right angle, etc. What do you do? You grind them and then they aren't any better than the cheap brazed on bits.

Do measure things before you get too excited about milling things straight. If you aren't off by more than 0.005", you might just consider only scraping it - it might be faster.

For a scraper, I have a hand scraper (http://www.mcmaster.com/#3643a17/=ogqrqw, or similar). You can make your own, too. Carbide tips only. If not, you will be sharpening forever. I have scraped a 6" x 6" x 6" angle plate with it and it works, but it sure is a lot of work. You will find out how strong and steady you are if you go this route. I also got an ancient Biax on ebay. Works great and I'll never go back. I bet I am 10 x faster with my Biax. And maybe more accurate, too.

No matter what you use for a scraper, you will need:
- Blue marking compound - http://www.artcotools.com/die-spotting-ink.html
- Surface plate
- Foam roller or brayer for spreading the blue
- Grinding stone for deburring - http://www.artcotools.com/india-round-edge-slip-stones.html
- Some way to sharpen your scraper. Carbide stays sharp for a long time, but it needs to be perfect or you will just scratch things up.
--A glendo lapper is ideal http://www.hobby-machinist.com/show...-tilt-table-grinding-machine?highlight=glendo
-- There are clones people have made here
--- http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/11032-Glendo-lapper-clone?p=91356#post91356
--- http://www.hobby-machinist.com/show...sive-Scraper-Blade-Sharpener?highlight=glendo


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## genec

you might take Rich King's class or buy his videos


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## Richard King

Thanks genec...

As everyone here has seen there are many folks who can teach and give advice on scraping.  I like to sit back and watch them teach.  Makes me proud to see how this site teaches anyone who asks.  There are several You Tube movies you can watch too.  You should buy a book called "Machine Tool Reconditioning"  . It is an oldie but goody.    Rich

I buy the stones from MSC and they Norton MS-24 and you can buy the ink from DAPRA.com plus scrapers, ink rollers and the book.   I am a rep for them, but you can contact them directly as small orders are a hassle for me...ha ha

You can buy the DVD here.  Look at Auctions Forum at the top of the list, I offer a discount to the members.  
look at the past threads on this forum and you will find several showing tools.  Like the one's Eric shows.   The threads that Jan have done on here with his You Tube movies (what is the proper name for them anyway, lol).    There are several ways to sharpen carbide blades as you can see, but Erick is right, don't screw with HSS.  

Rich


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## DMS

I would add a straight edge and/or a prism for marking inside dovetails. I made my own out of a length of durabar, and it is good practice at the very least. Also, the link that Erik posted to the scraper on McMaster is an Anderson brothers scraper if I am not mistaken. They are cheaper if you buy directly from Anderson (by $10 or so).

http://www.andersonscraper.com/order.htm

I would also recommend a DTI, a 0.0001 indicator would be nice, I only have a 0.0005 indicator (some day...).

Here are some pics of some of my tools. On the top is a photo of the scaper I made, just a carbide blank, hot rolled steel, and a file handle. The bottom is an Anderson brothers scraper. Sitting on top is the 50 degree prism I made. I was pretty proud of it when I made it, but looking at it now I can see that it could definitely use some work.


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## jshaugjord

Maybe a little aside the actual scraping tools (which the other have summed up so well), I would also suggest a machinist level, resolution 0.0005" per 12"
Comes in handy. My experience (because of inexperience....) is that it is good to have different ways to do/measure the same, so a reading with one tool is indeed confirmed with measurement using another tool/procedure/technique. Working alone, that is confidence-building.. (and confusing when they disagree.. until you find out why, but when you do, you are one step forward on the learning curve!)

Worth saying once more.. the scraping seminar/course is a good investment


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## astjp2

Well the first thing I ordered was a Machinery handbook, 20th edition.  Its not the newest but the price was right at $29.  I have found a 4x4 surface plate from a ctlm that was torn down for 500, but I need to save my pennies for that.  I think a scraper is next, along with getting a roller for the blue. Tim


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## ScubaSteve

astjp2 said:


> Well the first thing I ordered was a Machinery handbook, 20th edition.  Its not the newest but the price was right at $29.  I have found a 4x4 surface plate from a ctlm that was torn down for 500, but I need to save my pennies for that.  I think a scraper is next, along with getting a roller for the blue. Tim



4x4 surface plate for $500? do you mean 4' x 4'? That sounds gigantic...not sure you need one that big. If you're talking inches, that's too small. Plenty of grade A granite surface plates available new for ~ $150 shipped.


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## astjp2

ScubaSteve said:


> 4x4 surface plate for $500? do you mean 4' x 4'? That sounds gigantic...not sure you need one that big. If you're talking inches, that's too small. Plenty of grade A granite surface plates available new for ~ $150 shipped.


 4'x4'x1' they were part of CTLMs that were disassembled, the prices is fairly cheap for that size, they do have a slot down the middle for mounting of the former parts of the machine.  Tim


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## Richard King

ScubaSteve said:


> 4x4 surface plate for $500? do you mean 4' x 4'? That sounds gigantic...not sure you need one that big. If you're talking inches, that's too small. Plenty of grade A granite surface plates available new for ~ $150 shipped.



Steve the bigger the better when it comes to a plate, he is saying 4' x 4' and the thicker the plate is the better the grade.  I use to buy old CMM (Coordinated measuring machines) dismantle the top and use them for the bigger plates.  Most used machine dealers will practically give them away when the software is out of date or not working.  Look at Phil's Bench-Master Thread and look at the picture and see where he is using a surface gage to measure his table and he used it to scrape the table and top.  In order to do it right your plate of straight-edge has to be longer then the part your checking or scraping.  One can step scrape something long with a short plate or straight edge and a level, but it is a real pain and not something a novice should do.   Price is relative to where it is and if it has a stand, made in the USA not some cheap certified Asian plates I have seen.  They say A grade but are F grade after they were tested.  I have seen a few good imported ones but of the handful of granite squares and plates i have seen they were out even when they were new.


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## astjp2

Rich, can you post a link, I did a search and did not find it.  Tim


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## Bebop

Scrapers can be very personal ... some people like flexible ones some like ones that are firm, in my experience the cormorant ones are firm .. the Anderson ones are more flexible. if you make your own you can tune it to your preference. It appearers we are neighbors Im in North Ogden ... I'll PM you my #, I would love to help shorten your learning curve :-}
Cheers Don


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## astjp2

Bebop said:


> Scrapers can be very personal ... some people like flexible ones some like ones that are firm, in my experience the cormorant ones are firm .. the Anderson ones are more flexible. if you make your own you can tune it to your preference. It appearers we are neighbors Im in North Ogden ... I'll PM you my #, I would love to help shorten your learning curve :-}
> Cheers Don



Don, any guidance would be appreciated.  This is new to me, making machines work is what I do for a living, making them precise is what I am wanting to learn.  TIm


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## Bebop

astjp2 said:


> Don, any guidance would be appreciated.  This is new to me, making machines work is what I do for a living, making them precise is what I am wanting to learn.  TIm


Im free now ...give me a call :-D
Don


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## astjp2

I ordered the Connelly book yesterday, now I need to get a good scraper. It will be a matter of time till I find it on the bag or CL. I also picked up a small chunk of class 40 cast iron from a local supplier, they had it in their remenant section.  Now I have something to practice on.  :whiteflag:Tim


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## astjp2

Is the machinerepair.com guy still in business?  I sent an email and got no reply about his camel back straight edge.  The website has not been updated since 2009, so I am wondering if its still active.  Tim


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## Richard King

I wouldn't count on machine repair guy. 

 Contact these guys, they makes them and they are legit.  Both of the following 2 guys I believe sell them raw casting, machined or scraped. 

Gregory Dermer .......                               Greg was a student and I know a friend of mine just bough a couple castings from him a month ago
2945 NE 17th Ave
Portland, OR 97212

503-805-0680

Also this guy used to make em too.       The last time I spoke to his guy 2 years ago and he was out of stock.....

Craig Donges, 8389 State Route 534, Berlin Center, Ohio  44401.  Tele. # : 330 502 0066. 

There is also a Indian company I have been talking to who makes them.   Try those guys and if you don't get results let me know and I'll contact the other company.

Please let me know what you find out from these guys.

I know Polor Tool in Mpls has some used ones but he has unrealistic prices.

When I buy Dura-Bar I order grey iron. I believe it's class 25.    The Dura-Bar plant I order from is in Wood-Stock IL

Also expect to high heat stress relieve the castings.  Ask  Greg and Craig if hey have been stress relieved.  I would high temp stress relieve them   before machining then stress relieve them again and then finish machine and scrape them.  
High temp stress relieve means  "cooking" the iron over 12 hours time.   Put them in a furnace and take the heat to 1100 for 2 hours, then lower the heat to 900 for 2 hours, then lower to 700 for 2 hours, then 500 for 2 hours, then 250 for 2 hours and then off till they get to room temp.  I have pro's do it.   
Heating it up and shutting of the heat does nothing.  If you don't stress relieve it will move around a lot.  You will scrape it and the next day it will change.
Also "wring" the straight edge and that means to hang it from a rope and hit it with a soft blow hammer or 2 x 4 and let the iron vibrate or wring like a bell

Rich


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## Richard King

Hand scrapers.

My first had scraper (1964) was a Anderson with a HSS blade.  I sharpened it more then scraping ion with it.  I used it until aprox 1969 when we bought Sandvik with carbide tips.  I cut the narrow Sanvik and added about 3" because I am tall. I used that until about 1980 when I bought my first Biax handscraper sold thru Dapra,  we bought our first Biax Power Scraper in 1972.  In 1982 or so I became a DAPRA Rep and their National Instructor teaching companies to scrape by hand and power.  So naturally I pushed the Dapra products.   Now being involved with hobbyists I have seen them make there own handscrapers.  Nathan in Dallas a host of a class we had down there copied the one that was inside a popular hobby magazine who has asked This forum not to mention their name, but that magazine had a article on handscraping a year or so ago and they made a scraper that resembles the one Forrest Addy makes.  Another person who teaches scraping with the help of Bebop who is a momber and helps in this forum.  Nathan told me he figured it cost him $25.00 in material.   Last spring I was teaching a class in IL and they needed a handscraper and I went to Farm and Fleet and bought a 3/16" x 1" x 48" piece of cold roll bar stock and used a Biax to copy.  We bolted on a Biax Power scraper blade to it and it worked great.    I will see if I can attach a picture of it, if not it is inside my career gallery inside my profile.   The blue handle scraper is a Biax with blade costs around $170.00.  See the round sanding disk I screw on the end that "spreads out the hurt" when your body pushing the scraper.   The home made one cost us $12.00 in steel and 2 - 1/4 20 screws and a file handle and the labor to cut a tang and drill the holes.  I think a Anderson costs under $100.00.  One thing you have to have is a diamond wheel to sharpen the carbide.  I like a Glendo Accu-finish with a 600 grit wheel.  Bill, Mell and Tadd have made there own and look back in this forums archives to see them.    Rich


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## Erik Brewster

I forgot Sharpies! I find it really easy to get lost in scraping and forget where I'm trying to scrape and where I'm not. What direction I did last cycle, etc. I use Sharpies to write all over the part to keep track of things. It's easy to get off of cast iron and it usually gets scraped off in the next cycle, anyway.


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## Tony Wells

Just for the record, most, if not all categorically, CMM tables are not certified as flat like surface plates. They develop their own base plane of reference from points measured by the probe, either a hard probe or a touch probe like a Reneshaw. They are generally very thick for their size, and do contain threaded metal inserts to hold inspection fixtures, etc. at times. They can, however, be lapped and certified to the same specifications as granite surface plates, but for the most part, inspection departments do not bother, since it isn't used as a surface plate.


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## Richard King

You maybe right for most cases, but not always Tony, I bought a CMM that had a inspection certificate as lapped AAA grade.  I bought it 10 yrs or so at a 3M silent auction they have up here ever few months.   It also came with a self leveling 3 point stand.  The wires looked like a cob web so no one wanted it if the controls were shot.   I bought it for the minimum bid of $75.00.   Cost me more to have it moved then I paid for it.  I know a couple of guys who have made surface plates from them too.  If I saw another one at an auction and I needed a plate I would buy it if the price was right.  It had the inserts and they were real handy checking some parts.


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## astjp2

I got my Connelly book, it looks like it will be a hard read.  They need more pictures!  I work better with pictures!


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## astjp2

I have been reading the Connelly book, made it to chapter 4, it is making sense and I am finding it to use common sense approach to what is required to become a competent scraper.  I am a social but I also can be focused, so I am getting mixed signals whether I will be good at this or not.  Only time will tell.  Tim


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## Ginjee

I went through the posts... just wondering if there is a specific grade of carbide you are using?  i.e. C2, C5... etc.  Have you tried different ones when making your own scrapers?


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## Richard King

Ginjee said:


> I went through the posts... just wondering if there is a specific grade of carbide you are using?  i.e. C2, C5... etc.  Have you tried different ones when making your own scrapers?



Several of the guys have bought carbide from Enco,  I was just looking at the website and I think the bought.   Once you silver soder the piece on you will need to grind the front to a 60 mm Radius and neg 5 deg. <====   tip and I also grind the 1/4 sides to get it shinny.  Otherwise if the sides are not smooth they will leave small scratches in the scrape cut.           





  I buy the Carbide from Dapra or Sanvik and never pay much attention to the grade.    Rich


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## astjp2

So do you resistance solder or use a small oxy/fuel torch to silver solder?  Tim


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## Bebop

I use a torch setup lots of flux really helps and being patent :-}
Don


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## astjp2

Well I am getting an Anderson scraper, I need to get a few more carbide tips but it should be a good tool to start learning to scrape.  Tim


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## Richard King

astjp2 said:


> Well I am getting an Anderson scraper, I need to get a few more carbide tips but it should be a good tool to start learning to scrape.  Tim



It is an old style and I would suggest you but the carbide tips and not waste your time with the HSS blades.  grind the tip radius to a 60 mm radius .  and hopefully you bought the HKA-15, narrow and long as this is the secret, long and flexible.  I would extend the blade out as far as you can.  Another issue with those blades is when the braze or silver solder them on the get a flux stuck to the sides of the carbide.  To fix this you will need to lay to lay it carefully flat on the side of a lap or diamond wheel and shine it to a mirror finish.  I would practice the angle with the lap turned off so you know the feel when flat.  Be sure to use coolant or light oil in the blade to keep it cool.  This is why I prefer a Glendo Accu-Finish 1 with a 600 grit wheel or a home made type like Bill, Mel and Tadd have shown in the other posts.  A Baldor type double end grinder with a 300 grit diamond (3/4 or 1" wide face x 1/16 deep) works, but it heats the blade, so coolant is a must.       Rich
I will see if I can attach a picture of a Dapra blade so you can see the radius.


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## astjp2

Well I am just starting out so a glendo is way over my budget.  So it has a carbide tip, I will buy a few more tips so I can spend more time scraping than sharpening.  So 60mm is about a 2.5" in American?


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## Richard King

astjp2 said:


> Well I am just starting out so a glendo is way over my budget.  So it has a carbide tip, I will buy a few more tips so I can spend more time scraping than sharpening.  So 60mm is about a 2.5" in American?



I think its 2.36" but have to get one of the math majors figure it out exactly....but its about 6" diameter circle or 3" r  is good for a beginner.  Look at the thread history and Bill,  Tad and Mel show you how to make a super cheap diamond lapping machine.  

The reason you grind a rounder blade is so you don't get a flat blades corner scratch.  A small eye to hand coordination  error and you twist the scraper handle and instead of scraping in the center of the blade you catch the corner of the blade and you get a gouge or as some guys say it's an shallow oil groove  :rofl:   or an extra deep oil pocket.  When you buy a Anderson scraper the blade is flat and a great extra deep oil pocket maker :rofl:.  Take a look at the last post and as I said grind the blade that round.  The one (Biax model # 20-150 or 3/4" wide x 6" long) on the left is about a 60 R and the one on the right ( 25-150 or 1 1/4" x 6") is a 40 r.    Rich

PS:  Also note the black mark in the center so you can aim the center of the blade when your scraping, in the classes I call it your sight as in a gun, so you can scoot your bolt action gun when hand scraping.  We also mark the BIAX Power scraper blade when your machine gunning the high spots off.


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## Bill Gruby

60mm equals 2.3594 inches.   60 X .039370

 "Billy G"


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## astjp2

Bill Gruby said:


> 60mm equals 2.3594 inches.   60 X .039370
> 
> "Billy G"



Like I said, 2.5 inches!  LOL


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## Bill Gruby

Doing the math on my calculator actually comes closer to the answer Rich gave or 2.3622. The answer I gave first came from one of those on line converters. :lmao: Sorry for any confusion.

 "Billy G"


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## Richard King

I cheated and found a metric / inch conversion chart on Google for the radius....LOL.  As my trip to Taiwan draws nearer to attend my 30th year class reunion with all my students I have taught over the years I clicked on my pictures.  If you see I have students from not only Taiwan, but there are pictures of my GA class we had last spring.  Tommy Brooks is the handsome devil with the mustache, Jim Johnson or Gearco is the standing next to him.  The group of guys are from Bushe Precision in Milwaukee.   I can remember so many people who stood out.  But these hobbyist classes seem to be more rewarding as of late.  Thank You to my friends who I have helped. 

As I come nearer to my retirement I have so many fond memories of these classes.   It was a real adventure,  heck must have been in 1980 or so when I taught my first class at GM / Detroit Diesel Allison in Indianapolis when I was 30 years old and teaching Journeymen Machine Rebuilders in their 60's.  One memory that stands out is when I taught a class at Galmeyer and Livingston in Grand Rapid, MI where they built surface grinders.  The Grandson of the original owner, Charlie Galmeyer had me come in with the cooperation with DAPRA who sells the Power Scrapers..and teach 3 apprentices and 3 of their oldest Journeymen how to use the BIAX Scraper.  The first day the old farts were in there little world of  "Those BIAX scrapers are for roughing" attitude and the young guys were scraping 20 points.  

That was 8 more points then the old farts (my age now)  lol...had been hand scraping for years...yes 12 points.  I say you can get 20 points by accident using the checkerboard techinique I was taught and now teach.  On day 2 Charlie came out and looked things over and said the the lead Journeyman, whats happening ?  It was obvious the young guy who didn't have the attitude and an open mind were making monkeys out of the obstinate older guys who didn't want to at least give it a chance.  After lunch that day, those 3 older guys came over and said "Rich show us again"....that broke the ice....as I had pretty much stopped teaching them as they had a smart remark every time I tried to show them something so I ignored them prior to that.

It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but it can be done.   After we finished the practice bars we broke up into 2 man teams and they scraped the machine with my tricks of the trade tips.  I also learned from them. I have been always open to new ideas over the years and find new and faster methods so our company could make more money.   Thats why My dad bought the first BIAX, why I now use Turcite / Rulon / Moglice.    The last day at G&L as I was loading up my tools I heard a Yell "Rich" and I turned around and there stood the old lead Journeyman with his Anderson hand scraper...he was standing next to the trash barrel and he tossed his hand scraper in it.   Rich
Link to the pic's.   http://www.hobby-machinist.com/album.php?albumid=216


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## astjp2

Having an open mind is very important when learning something new.  Eliminating bias and having critical thinking when it comes to understanding what is required when partaking in a new craft is essential to learn from what others have experienced.  If you can learn from someone else's mistakes, the learning curve is greatly reduced.  Tim


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## Tony Wells

Richard King said:


> You maybe right for most cases, but not always Tony, I bought a CMM that had a inspection certificate as lapped AAA grade.  I bought it 10 yrs or so at a 3M silent auction they have up here ever few months.   It also came with a self leveling 3 point stand.  The wires looked like a cob web so no one wanted it if the controls were shot.   I bought it for the minimum bid of $75.00.   Cost me more to have it moved then I paid for it.  I know a couple of guys who have made surface plates from them too.  If I saw another one at an auction and I needed a plate I would buy it if the price was right.  It had the inserts and they were real handy checking some parts.




Which is why I phrased my reply as I did. And I would go so far as to say that a granite plate taken from a CMM would make an excellent surface plate. They are usually thicker than found on an equivalent plane size plates, and hence more stable. Plus you are more likely to get a pink plate with a quality CMM than a lesser black granite.

And I do like the fact that there usually are hold down threaded inserts in the CMM plates. Just don't over tighten the clamps, they can pull a chunk of granite out.


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## astjp2

Ok, I have been working on making the way alignment took, one of the items I am trying to build uses a ground and hardened pin that I can use to check the inside of the dovetail.  I tried to drill it with a cobalt #30 drill and it just bounced off of it.  What should I do to drill a hole in this pin?  I am going to tap the side with a 1/4x20 so I can put a riser on it and slide it along the inside of the dovetail to check the parallelism.  Any ideas out there on the best way to drill and tap a hardened dowel pin?  Tim


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## Richard King

Aneal it.   I use to use ball bearings for the round end of the bar.  A easy way is to make a charcoal fire in your BBQ and lay the ball or rod in it and let it heat up and let it gradually cool off.  That should do the trick or use a torch...


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## astjp2

So, will this work as a sharpener?
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G2790

or what about this?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/T10097


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## Erik Brewster

The big trick to sharpening carbide is to use a diamond wheel. I suspect the knife grinder will spin fast (1800 / 3600 rpm). The 8" grinder is slower and could be made to work, if you can get a diamond wheel on it.

The slow speed isn't strictly needed for diamond on carbide, but things will be cool and easy to control if the speed is low.

The 8" grinder looks like it might be tough to hold the scraper at the right angle with that guide, but it might work. A good guide doesn't need to be expensive, some scrap wood and time can do the job.

Erik


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## astjp2

So if I do the Ebay option for a diamond lap and get a grinder from grizzly to put it on, what RPM should I be lookin for in a grinder similar to those posted above?  Tim


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## Richard King

Did you see this post bill added a super cheap way to sharpen the blades.   My Glendo runs about 300 RPM.  

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/14987-My-cheapo-Glendo-substitute?p=115819#post115819


The advantage of the Glendo is your blade doesn't get hot like the 3450 RPM machines get.  If you can make one of those Grizzly grinders to accept a face wheel and if you can make a tilt table that is adjustable. It should work.  If you have a lathe, you could make a adjustable blade rest that would set on the compound.


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## astjp2

I saw that posting, I need to have a sharpener at home and my lathe is at my shop.  That is why I am trying to make something work.  Tim


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## Richard King

For years in my Dad's shop we used a regular double end grinder with a 6 x 3/4 x 1 1/4 flat faced 300 grit diamond wheel mounted on one side.  We welded an extension on the tool rest that was on the side.  The blade would get hot, so we had to be careful and free handed the angle.  If you have a double end grinder I see a wheel on Ebay like it is selling for $100.00.   Mell and Tadd have home built grinders in the archives too.


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## astjp2

Richard King said:


> For years in my Dad's shop we used a regular double end grinder with a 6 x 3/4 x 1 1/4 flat faced 300 grit diamond wheel mounted on one side.  We welded an extension on the tool rest that was on the side.  The blade would get hot, so we had to be careful and free handed the angle.  If you have a double end grinder I see a wheel on Ebay like it is selling for $100.00.   Mell and Tadd have home built grinders in the archives too.



I finally received the new carbide tip, radius gauge and scraper handle from Anderson, I like the fit of the new handle better than the original.  I spent some time radiusing the new tip, now I just need to get it lapped for a nice sharp finish.  It is not easy to make a good round contour but I have it pretty close and hope that lapping will finish truing it up.  Tim


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## Richard King

My friend Peter tried to hand lap the blades and raved about how great it worked until he sharped his blade on my glendo.....ha ha..


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## Showoff

Richard King said:


> I cheated and found a metric / inch conversion chart on Google for the radius....LOL.  As my trip to Taiwan draws nearer to attend my 30th year class reunion with all my students I have taught over the years I clicked on my pictures.  If you see I have students from not only Taiwan, but there are pictures of my GA class we had last spring.  Tommy Brooks is the handsome devil with the mustache, Jim Johnson or Gearco is the standing next to him.  The group of guys are from Bushe Precision in Milwaukee.   I can remember so many people who stood out.  But these hobbyist classes seem to be more rewarding as of late.  Thank You to my friends who I have helped.
> 
> As I come nearer to my retirement I have so many fond memories of these classes.   It was a real adventure,  heck must have been in 1980 or so when I taught my first class at GM / Detroit Diesel Allison in Indianapolis when I was 30 years old and teaching Journeymen Machine Rebuilders in their 60's.  One memory that stands out is when I taught a class at Galmeyer and Livingston in Grand Rapid, MI where they built surface grinders.  The Grandson of the original owner, Charlie Galmeyer had me come in with the cooperation with DAPRA who sells the Power Scrapers..and teach 3 apprentices and 3 of their oldest Journeymen how to use the BIAX Scraper.  The first day the old farts were in there little world of  "Those BIAX scrapers are for roughing" attitude and the young guys were scraping 20 points.
> 
> That was 8 more points then the old farts (my age now)  lol...had been hand scraping for years...yes 12 points.  I say you can get 20 points by accident using the checkerboard techinique I was taught and now teach.  On day 2 Charlie came out and looked things over and said the the lead Journeyman, whats happening ?  It was obvious the young guy who didn't have the attitude and an open mind were making monkeys out of the obstinate older guys who didn't want to at least give it a chance.  After lunch that day, those 3 older guys came over and said "Rich show us again"....that broke the ice....as I had pretty much stopped teaching them as they had a smart remark every time I tried to show them something so I ignored them prior to that.
> 
> It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but it can be done.   After we finished the practice bars we broke up into 2 man teams and they scraped the machine with my tricks of the trade tips.  I also learned from them. I have been always open to new ideas over the years and find new and faster methods so our company could make more money.   Thats why My dad bought the first BIAX, why I now use Turcite / Rulon / Moglice.    The last day at G&L as I was loading up my tools I heard a Yell "Rich" and I turned around and there stood the old lead Journeyman with his Anderson hand scraper...he was standing next to the trash barrel and he tossed his hand scraper in it.   Rich
> Link to the pic's.   http://www.hobby-machinist.com/album.php?albumid=216



Rich,

love that story..... I can see him and the trash can.

my only question is why would you retire ?

if you ever want a vacation to fl. Your always welcome.

all the best john.





.


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## astjp2

*Scraping QCTP*

SO if I get a decent quality QCTP, should I look at scraping the base and the compound rest?  If so, how many PPI would I need?  Also what is the difference between a BXA type 1 tool holder and a BXA type 2?  Tim


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## Erik Brewster

*Re: Scraping QCTP*



astjp2 said:


> SO if I get a decent quality QCTP, should I look at scraping the base and the compound rest?  If so, how many PPI would I need?



I think you should. Scraping will guarantee you have flat surfaces, and that will eliminate rocking due to bad surfaces. I would say 10 ppi would be plenty. You will want to make sure you get some significant (50%) spotting coverage. You can get that fairly easily by wet stoning after you scrape it flat.

I think the type 2 holder has a v groove to hold a round bit. The v is not so wide that you can't use flat tools, but it can be inconvenient when mounting small tools -- they may not be as wide as the v.


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## astjp2

*Re: Scraping QCTP*

Erik, thank you for the information.  Tim



Erik Brewster said:


> I think you should. Scraping will guarantee you have flat surfaces, and that will eliminate rocking due to bad surfaces. I would say 10 ppi would be plenty. You will want to make sure you get some significant (50%) spotting coverage. You can get that fairly easily by wet stoning after you scrape it flat.
> 
> I think the type 2 holder has a v groove to hold a round bit. The v is not so wide that you can't use flat tools, but it can be inconvenient when mounting small tools -- they may not be as wide as the v.


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## astjp2

So I have been making progress, I am almost finished with a 600 rpm diamond lap.  I need to rebuild the table because I broke a tap and I need to wire it up.  Slowly but surely I will get there.  Oh yeah, I had to make a bushing to fit the Crysalis 1200 grit lap onto the metric motor shaft.  The outside of the lap has a .008 tir for out of round, what do you guys think I should do to get it to run true?  Add some set screws?  Tap it with a mallet?  Any ideas would be appreciated.  Tim


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## Erik Brewster

astjp2 said:


> I had to make a bushing to fit the Crysalis 1200 grit lap onto the metric motor shaft.  The outside of the lap has a .008 tir for out of round, what do you guys think I should do to get it to run true?  Add some set screws?  Tap it with a mallet?  Any ideas would be appreciated.  Tim



Scrape it. I'm guessing your bushing is an inch across and your lapping wheel is 8" across. You only need to take 0.001" of the correct part of the bushing. Figure out where the material needs to come off, measure it, scrape it, measure it, repeat until it is correct. Kind of a pain, but it's a small part.

You could sand it with sandpaper on a flat surface, if you put pressure in the correct spot, too.

You could also Dremel it with a sanding drum. These three solutions are all really the same thing; just different ways of removing the material.


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## astjp2

The lap is only 5" and the hole the bushing is in in the lap is 5/8" mounted on a 12mm D shaped shaft.  I did get the busted tap out, had to use a carbide 3/16 endmill and a broken tap extractor.  The endmill wound up turning in the tap piece and bottoming it out so I was able to use broken tap extractor to get back last chunk out.  tim


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## astjp2

I redid the design and added some lightening holes.  Just need to get it cut out.  Tim 

View attachment tim 2-2.pdf


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## astjp2

I've made a few changes and added some lightening hole.  I also went with countersunk screws, it turned out nice.  Tim


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## astjp2

Well I now have a surface plate and I added 3 more 4' florescent lights lights in my shop.  The surface plate is 3'x4'x8".  After Bebop verifies level and surface flatness, I will be able to start scraping.  Tim


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## astjp2

I made some progress on the lathe today, I am ordering the parts I need, gears and screws as I find them.  How does this look for the scraping for the cross slide? 4th pass


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## 4GSR

Looking great!

Come scrape mine when you are finished)


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## astjp2

I have spent 3 days working on getting the gas furnace running in the shop, none of the safeties seemed to work so I am trying to locate parts for a Janitrol unit heater, dated 1956.  The snap switch that turns on he fan was bad so I installed a 24 v coil relay to turn on the fan motor, there was no transformer so I had to buy one of those to get the low voltage for the thermostat and gas valve.  I tried to get a 6 second timer to replace the snap switch but the one I got did not work.  Now the motor for the fan is not working, I need to remove it and take it to the electrical shop to get repaired.  Its a t42 frame 1/3 hp, not a common size, the t48 is more common.  Hopefully I will have heat soon.  

I also started my project to insulate my door, its a 10x18' sliding barn style door.  That thing acts like a huge radiator and sucks out the heat that I did have in the shop.  All in due time.  Tim


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## astjp2

Well, Don came out an checked the surface plate, its within 45 millionths from high to low.  So it is good for a grade B.   I started scraping the rough cast camelback, I hit it with a facing mill and now I need to scrape it in.  Making progress slowly.  Tim


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## astjp2

Well I am finally making some use of the indicators, way alignment tool I made and the surface plate I bought.  What sayeth the tribe?


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## astjp2

I finally made progress on one of my projects, I bought a box to mount the carbide diamond lap.  Now its enclosed and all bolted together.  I got the box from a freight salvage store for $12.  Now I need to get a few more items for my Anderson Scraper and make a box to put my indicators in.  I have an old snap-on tool box that I might use for the indicators...put them in foam and keep it portable.  Tim


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## Ulma Doctor

astjp2 said:


> Well I am finally making some use of the indicators, way alignment tool I made and the surface plate I bought.  What sayeth the tribe?





Great work sayeth this tribe member!!!:thumbzup3:


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## astjp2

I got a sandvik scraper and 4 boxes of carbide inserts for 150.00.  Now I need to compare how it scrapes to my Anderson.  I am hoping for a biax someday to save on the back.  Tim


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## Ulma Doctor

I was looking at the sandvik coromant- it looks like a stout scraper!
i think you'll like it!!!


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## 4GSR

Personnely, I prefer the Sandvik scrapers myself, it's all I've ever used.  I have three of them and an assortment of carbide blades for them.  I've got to make me a diamond lap like the above, that's a nice one!


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## astjp2

Well I finally bought a Biax from the bay...I think I paid too much  but its the first one I have seen in a while that is a BL10.  Tim

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221765617312?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Ulma Doctor

Nice score on the Biax!
i haven't seen one equipped like that, for less, in a long time.
you did well !!!!


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## astjp2

Yeah up until my wife finds out how much I paid for it....


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## 4GSR

astjp2 said:


> Yeah up until my wife finds out how much I paid for it....



Did you say your wife wanted a new side by side frig with the bottom freezer?  In stainless steel?


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## astjp2

I have the oversize LG French door with bottom freezer in WHITE!


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## astjp2

I found a HM10 for $995.00, should I invest?  Tim


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## astjp2

I got the Biax and tried it out, its pretty cool compared to hand scraping.  Tim


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