# Long nose live center



## LeChuck (Nov 30, 2020)

Hello,

Anyone has a good MT3 long nose live center that they are happy with, has lasted, and can recommend?

I bought this one from Shars:





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						3 MT Morse Taper Long Nose High Speed Medium Duty CNC Live Center
					

Shars Tool




					www.shars.com
				




I'm having to return it because it started dragging after just a few uses turning down resin blanks to diameter and a couple blanks just sheared off of my stebcenter, as the live center couldn't handle 1000rpm anymore. I switched back to the cheaper one I had bought from PM and it works fine, but would like something that lets me get closer, and give more clearance away from the tailstock.

I don't want to get another copy of the same one.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 30, 2020)

Skoda makes good quality live centers:




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						Skoda MT#3 Precision CNC Live Centers
					





					www.ajaxtoolsupply.com


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## LeChuck (Nov 30, 2020)

That looks pretty good, even though pricey. I'll check them out. Wish they had dimensions on there.


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## projectnut (Nov 30, 2020)

I do have a couple suggestions, but you better be sitting down when you look at the prices.

Royal makes a "high precision" series, but they refer to the long nose style as CNC centers.  MSC carries them for a healthy price: 

Royal Products - MT3 Taper Shank, 1-3/4" Head Diam 1,735 Lb Capacity Live Center - 00102335 - MSC Industrial Supply (mscdirect.com) 

Royal is in my opinion either the top of the line or very close to it.  They also make a line called Value Turn.  This line is about half the cost of their high precision series, but they're still not cheap.  I'm not sure if they make a long nose style in that line.

As mentioned Skoda also makes good centers.  I have both brands in the MT2 and MT3 sizes, however only the MT3 Royal has the extended nose.  All the others have the standard nose.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 30, 2020)

LeChuck said:


> That looks pretty good, even though pricey. I'll check them out. Wish they had dimensions on there.



If you look up their catalog they have some dimensions.
The problem with live centers is that you can buy cheap or you can buy good.  The Chinese stuff always seems to
be a coin toss quality wise, as you learned.


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## LeChuck (Nov 30, 2020)

I like the nose shape on the Royal, but that price is too high for my needs. I might try the Skoda. I'm not finding a precise dimension on the tip size, other than the largest diameter of the cone is 0.75 inch from their catalog, but it looks like that might work.

I have several live centers on my wood lathe. A  Jet, a OneWay, a cheap 60 degree no name one, and another cheap one that's been working fine. On the metal lathe I have the one I paid $39 for from PM, and this Shars, and the Shars is the only one of them all that's stopped turning smoothly, and after just a handful of uses. 

I don't want to spend a fortune, but have something that's pretty good, and continues to be pretty good for a good while. Don't want to be ruining sticks of resin. It's enough of a pain when I made it myself, but even worse if it happens on a vintage one that I bought from overseas and have an order waiting.


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## LeChuck (Nov 30, 2020)

Skoda one ordered. The refund from Shars will make the pill easier to swallow


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## pontiac428 (Nov 30, 2020)

If you want a Chinese approximation of a tool, you'll get Chinese quality.  If you want the real-deal version of the tool used in production environments, you had better be sitting down when you read the price.  If you know which one you need, you'll make the choice that puts you ahead.  For some, that's a Chi-tool. For those that know the tool is key to the desired outcome, the pill is much easier to swallow.


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## LeChuck (Dec 7, 2020)

I just received the nearly $300 Skoda mentioned above. I'm sad but not surprised to see that this seems overrated, like most things these days. Out of the box, it's just about as tight as the Shars was when I returned it. My heart sank when I took it out and tried. Then I saw the tiny little manual that says it has to run for a few minutes to warm up and loosen the lubricant. I did that, ran it at 1100RPM for a few minutes holding on to a piece of brass and felt it get warm. It didn't change its tightness even by a bit, no difference I could feel. It's probably acceptable for metal but I can't really trust it to a piece of resin for my use as it would risk tearing out and throwing it off during a cut. Maybe I need to run it faster and try to get it *really* hot so I'll try that later, but I'm not hopeful. It also has some rub that I can feel turning by hand.

So far, the $39 Chinese one from PM is the one that just works smoothly, just not with an extended nose.


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## LeChuck (Dec 7, 2020)

Hmmm, this may have been ignorance on my part. I went to try again because I couldn't leave it alone and I tried turning it while applying force on the nose, and it turns more freely, so it looks like this is supposed to turn freely under load...Will see when I try turning down a stick of resin.

I wonder which screw to remove in order to add lubricant when needed.


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## mksj (Dec 7, 2020)

When you consider the clearances and accuracy, some will be tight at first and then spin more freely with time. It also may be the design and type/configuration of the bearings. I have the Skoda with interchangeable noses and moves quite smoothly but has been used. My standard point live centers also move freely, but I have the same Shar's as you had, it was very tight and gritty which improve somewhat with oil flushing. I would run the Skoda for a bit longer and with some tension on it. As mentioned often the seals and the bearings need to bed in. There is a flat head screw in the middle of the body which is for oil, should be instructions on that in the box.


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## Larry$ (Dec 7, 2020)

A couple of years ago I bought one of the cheap Chinese extended nose ones. It didn't hold up at all. I recently bought the $135+-  (less 20% Black friday sale) one from Shars. Seems OK, so far. They also list one for about twice the price. I like the idea of it having a port for relubing. The catalog said it was made so the bearings could be tightened after it wears. Don't know how that is done. No instructions. The catalog shows a tapered outer race on the roller bearing. Must be a way to tighten a threaded ring. The load rating and max speed are way beyond what my lathe will do. My standard LC from PM still works fine.


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## LeChuck (Dec 7, 2020)

Zero instructions with the Skoda other than the little piece of paper telling you to run it for a few minutes. There are 2 screws on it. A smaller one towards the front, and a large one in the middle of the body.


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## mksj (Dec 7, 2020)

Larger screw in the center of the body and mind also includes the tail end. It is pre-lubed from the factory so I would not add any oil. Give it some time to break in.


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## LeChuck (Dec 7, 2020)

Thanks! Yeah, I'll try it as soon as I have a stick to turn down to size and see how it handles it and if it loosens. The issue with the Shars was that the center offered too much resistance at 1100rpm so the teeth of the stebcenter in the head just ripped out of the resin. The stick started wobbling, making of course random cuts, then just fell off, being basically ruined. No problem with the cheap center, which can handle the speed. Hopefully this one will too. The resin requires good pressure so it doesn't loosen up in rotation, but not so much that it will start bending. Offers its own different challenges compared to metal


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## NCjeeper (Dec 7, 2020)

I have a shars one. Had it a few years now and no issues so far.


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## NC Rick (Dec 7, 2020)

LeChuck said:


> Hello,
> 
> Anyone has a good MT3 long nose live center that they are happy with, has lasted, and can recommend?
> 
> ...


I have the Shars one in mt4 and use it a lot, it's over 3 years old and I am pleased with it.  My small one is very old, made in the USA by "Motor company " iirc.


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

Just a follow up on this. I was able to use the new Skoda for the first time this weekend, as I needed to turn some new resin blanks. It worked the same as the Shars, with my cut failing within one inch of starting. I'm beginning to think that these heavier duty centers are fine for metal but have too much rolling resistance for resin. I cannot apply as much pressure as they seem to require and I have to turn between centers. After the fail, I cut off the ends and immediately switched back to the cheaper center, and it worked perfectly.


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## Larry$ (Dec 13, 2020)

The preload on my new Shars seems fairly high, so some resistance. Is there anything wrong with the cheapy? Alternative, use a dead center and a little lube of some sort. Alternative #2: make yourself a spring loaded live center with the ideal nose design for your work and the perfect spring load.


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

There is nothing inherently wrong with the cheap one, except for the fact that it's not an extended nose and I can only get so close with a cutter. 15mm is about the smallest diameter I can cut. It's fine, but I'd like to be able to get closer when needed, down to 13mm, and still be able to use the live center on a longer part. The other issue is that with it being a smaller center, it's also shorter and that means the tailstock is very extended to make up for the extra space taken by my DRO scale installation. Again this is ok but when turning down a 9 inch long stick, getting some chatter in the middle, less extension would probably be better. I can use the compound to make up for that but then it seems less rigid and I have to adjust it again after that. This work has quite a few steps so reducing their number is a good thing.


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## mksj (Dec 13, 2020)

My Skoda moves very freely, I would try to run it at speed with pressure for 1-2 hours and then repeat 2-3X and see if it improves. Maybe apply a little lube at the front seal. I use the extended point for the same reasons you mentioned. You can use a narrower insert/cutter to get closer to the the work end at the live center. Do not think a dead center will work very well, sounds like the material is fairly fragile.


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

It's hardy material but it cannot compare to metal of course. If I apply more pressure it will just enlarge the hole(until it starts bending), which means I'll have to trim more and waste material, and it can just make it fragile. But yeah, if there's resistance in the live center then the teeth of the steb center in the head will just dig a channel and rip it. Also have to be careful with heat. I'm going to try to reduce the speed to around 700rpm with a faster feed on those operations and see if it helps, as I'm also trying to get those resin chips to break (another issue I'm having). I'll try your recommendations. I did it for several minutes but didn't think to do it for an hour.


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## Tozguy (Dec 13, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> The preload on my new Shars seems fairly high, so some resistance. Is there anything wrong with the cheapy? Alternative, use a dead center and a little lube of some sort. Alternative #2: make yourself a spring loaded live center with the ideal nose design for your work and the perfect spring load.


#2.  BINGO!
Thats what I did using a Weldon end mill holder and a broken end mill ground to a 60 deg. point.
Will dig out a photo if you are interested.


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

It would be interesting to see.


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## Tozguy (Dec 13, 2020)

These are the components for making a live centre from a 3/8'' Weldon end mill holder.



The first version used a broken 1/8  TiN end mill that has a 60 deg. nose. A second version was made from a broken boring bar with a 3/8 shank (shown inserted in the end mill holder) because it had a longer nose.
The set screw in the holder is removed so that the hole can be used as an oil port. The ball bearings are 5/16''. Tension on the spring is adjustable using the 3/8nc set screw in the drawbar threads.
I have used this live centre for a few hours and can say it absolutely works great. Believe me you will be amazed at the results.
Because of the tight fit of the end mill in the holder the end mill shank might need to be buffed/polished for it to spin freely. Once that is accomplished, even a thin oil will stay in place for extended periods.


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## projectnut (Dec 13, 2020)

I would try breaking in the center using a piece of steel or aluminum round stock.  Grip the stock in a collet or 4 jaw chuck, face it, and drill an appropriate depth 60* center using a center drill.  Then move the tailstock with the center installed into position and start the lathe.  With the lathe up to speed advance the tailstock into the center just far enough to start the center turning.  Let the center turn for 10-15 minutes touching it occasionally to be sure it isn't over heating.

After running the center for the above recommended time shut down the lathe and back off the tailstock.  At this point the center should turn relatively easy with finger pressure only.  Keep in mind MT 3 centers are generally capable of supporting between 390 lbs. and  970 lbs. depending on the style you purchased.  The higher the load capacity the more resistance you should expect.

As mentioned this may be a case where the material intended to be turned isn't dense enough to be able to apply sufficient pressure to the center without damaging the material itself.


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

Thanks for the photo, that's interesting.

So, I ran it for 30 minutes at 1000rpm. I didn't have time to supervise it for a whole hour today. I used it on a brass mandrel that I made for my pen turning, with a 60 degree hole in the end, tight. It got hot to the touch. I can't say objectively that I feel any difference after this. I also added oil anywhere it sorta made sense. I believe it turns a bit more easily by hand when I push it in while turning but I would think that I apply at least as much pressure when turning the resin. There is already a good amount, but maybe not enough for this center. The cheap enter turns much more freely without absolutely no effort with the fingers. I can try again later on with a piece of resin that I don't mind breaking with more pressure.

But yeah, this is probably a matter of centers like this being higher rated and needing more pressure than I can use here. The MT2 centers I have on my wood lathe are all free spinning like the cheaper MT3 I've been using.


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## Tozguy (Dec 13, 2020)

An MT3 live centre would be rather big for turning pens. What if you bought a reducer sleeve so you could use an MT2 or MT1 live centre?








						MT-1 Live Center
					

The MT-1 Taper Live Center is for Light Duty Lathe Work




					tormach.com


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

Sure. Adding sleeves would probably make it slightly less accurate, but the important thing is that it has no play and an extended nose. I do use a sleeve already in order to use a steb center inside my ER40 chuck.


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## Tozguy (Dec 13, 2020)

Why would a live centre be less accurate when using a sleeve?


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

Eh, I don't know, just on principle I guess.


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## Tozguy (Dec 13, 2020)

What principle are you referring to? Just curious.


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

Not here to argue a point  Just thinking I'd rather use the correct format rather than an adapter if I can avoid it. That said, I do have an extended nose MT2 live center that I had bought for a smaller metal lathe which I didn't keep.


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## mksj (Dec 13, 2020)

Their is cumulative error of each part in a chain, and there are other issues like separating the adapter. Make sure the adapter is tanged, otherwise it can get jammed in the tailstock. I use a MT2 to MT3 adapter for me smaller MT2 drills in the tailstock, they have a small side window for a wedge to pop out the MT2 drill. It may take some time to break in, but that it got so hot means it is still very tight. There also might be other options like turning down a portion of the end of you rod to dimension, then sliding a metal cap on the end that will be used up against the center or some other form of interface. The Skoda I have has interchangeable tips so sometimes I will use a flat other times the small point.


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## LeChuck (Dec 13, 2020)

I might go for an adapter. The one I use for my steb center is well wedged on, but I don't need to remove it. Maybe the Skoda will loosen up but  I'm not hopeful.


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## Jim F (Dec 13, 2020)

Some picture of the lathe and material failure might help.
Also specs for material, like hardness etc.
Also info on tooling used, length of cut, etc. will help.
Maybe a follow rest might help ?


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## Tozguy (Dec 14, 2020)

mksj said:


> Their is cumulative error of each part in a chain,


Not always, think of Jo gauge blocks.
My only point is that MT adapter sleeves are in common use and we can have 100% confidence in them when they are made right. But as already mentioned removing the sleeve when finished can be difficult, like separating Jo gauge blocks, Avoiding the use of a sleeve is mostly a matter of convenience.


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## Larry$ (Dec 14, 2020)

Gage blocks have errors! The reason you always use the fewest possible is to have the least error possible. There is no such thing as "perfect!"


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## LeChuck (Dec 14, 2020)

I ordered an adapter. The MT2 extended nose I have spins freely, so I'll try that. Just tried the Skoda again by hand this morning after a cold-ish night, and it's even worse. It barely turns at all.


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## Tozguy (Dec 14, 2020)

Looking forward to seeing how it works out for you. If you want to get fancy, index the adapter sleeve so that the error in the sleeve cancels the error in the receiver socket


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## LeChuck (Dec 16, 2020)

Well, tried the MT2 long nose in the adapter today.




Your browser is not able to display this video.



















It works but there's more runout than I'd like. Used the cheap MT3 live center for the second stick and it worked better, even if the tailstock has to be extended to almost 90mm, so I'll stick with that unless I need to get a thinner stick.

That said, I remembered that Sorby also makes a live version of their stebcenter so I ordered one to use with another adapter and see how that works, to get a good grip without too much pressure (which bends the stick and creates a bit of chatter and spiral away from the ends).

Today's result.






Swarf City.


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## Jim F (Dec 16, 2020)

Have you thought about using a wood lathe ?


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## LeChuck (Dec 16, 2020)

I have a wood lathe  A metal lathe is more appropriate for custom pens and I can't turn an almost 9 inch long stick to consistent exact size by hand on a wood lathe. That would definitely kill productivity. I shape and finish each part on a wood lathe.


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## Jim F (Dec 16, 2020)

Are you using an insert cutter?
Looking at the surface finish, maybe slow the feed a touch ?


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## LeChuck (Dec 16, 2020)

Yah, insert cutter, with the uncoated insert that I would use on brass. I slowed down the rpms and it gives me a heavier string that falls down and away instead of getting caught on the piece, so that's an improvement. I don't like the spiral but it happens towards the middle of the stick, I think because it's so long and the rigidity is a bit less towards the middle. It doesn't happen on a 5 inch stick. After I slowed down the rotation (760rpm now), I increased the feed so it wouldn't take forever, but I can try to slow that down to see if there's less spiral, and do it in 2 cuts. I'm currently at 0.0027 r/inch. Can try that on the next blanks!


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## Jim F (Dec 16, 2020)

I am not familiar with insert tool, but maybe a different style insert ?
I only use HSS, my lathe is 73 yrs old.......


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## LeChuck (Dec 16, 2020)

Yeah, it's possible. Unfortunately I don't have enough experience with different styles of inserts to know which would be best here. This is the set I'm using:






						BXA Master Turning/Boring Tool Set – Precision Matthews Machinery Co.
					






					www.precisionmatthews.com
				




I used the coated (gold) insert to turn the steel adapter plate for the ER40 chuck I'm using and the uncoated one to make brass mandrels to hold my pen parts in the ER32 chuck on my wood lathe.

Turning the sticks down to size is the only time I'm using the auto feed for this. Everything else is by hand, except for parting. It's all working very well, but getting better results on the first step would be nice. More sanding later means more time spent and less consistent sizes.


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## mksj (Dec 16, 2020)

You could try an insert with a larger nose diameter which should decrease the ridging, but most likely the material is flexing as oppose to cutting the full depth. A CCGT 32.52 may be worth a try, I use the Korloy on aluminum and softer materials, typically a 32.51, but on my ball turner I use a 32.52 due to the ridging with the former. A lot of inserts are counterfeit so always hard to know if it is the real deal, but at $29 worth a try.








						10 pcs KORLOY CCGT 09T308-AK / CCGT 32.52-AK Grade H01 Carbide Inserts  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 10 pcs KORLOY CCGT 09T308-AK / CCGT 32.52-AK Grade H01 Carbide Inserts at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				




I am not sure this will work any better than what you already have:


			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/mt-3-slim-body-live-center/


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## LeChuck (Dec 16, 2020)

That live center is the one I've been using, the cheaper one that's working well. Would be perfect if it had an extended nose, and a bit more body length. Other than that, it turns without runout and fast enough.

I'll look into the inserts. They seem very similar to the ones I have, but maybe a different nose geometry? I might try that if I get an additional insert holder. The inserts I'm using now are working well for the other steps. I'm wondering if I could use the rounder ones for the other steps. Hmmm, maybe that won't make a difference for that. Worth a try. Thanks!


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## LeChuck (Dec 17, 2020)

For some closure in this saga 

The spiraling is not due to the cutter or speed. I'm already going at one of the slowest speeds on the lathe, and the one I'm using now seems to be the sweet spot. Any slower and the string will get wrapped around the piece, a little faster and I get a heavier "chip" that falls down and away from the cutter.

But today I cut a 5.5 inch long stick right after I cut some longer ones with exactly the same settings, and there is no spiraling at all. So it's really about the flex in the material at almost 9 inches long. I'm going to see about changing my workflow to try to cast and use 6 inch long blanks instead and that should eliminate that issue. Less practical but should work out better.


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 17, 2020)

Have you tried using a follow rest? You may not be able to use it once you get down to the contour, but it would help in the beginning. Maybe even in the final stages too.


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## LeChuck (Dec 17, 2020)

I haven't thought of that but worth trying eventually.


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## petertha (Dec 17, 2020)

I have what I think is the same Shars. I can't fault it, its been run for many hours & no issues. Runout doesn't register on my tenths DTI. Sometimes you just get a Monday model. The Euro/USA models were just more than I wanted to spend. (model engine valves)


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## petertha (Dec 17, 2020)

One thing - I didn't read every single post but when was the last time you checked your tailstock alignment relative to spindle? Sometimes they drift with use or a bump or whatever. This might be influencing matters. When I was a newbie pup I broke a couple carbide centers drills one after another, thinking it was the material or the feed. Nope, it was a centering issue. Well worth the time to correct & monitor.


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## Jim F (Dec 19, 2020)

One thing that has not been mentioned is, what is your lathe ?
If you are doing this kind of work on a 13x40 lathe. it might be good to look at a mini.
Most pen makers use mini's.


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