# Vehicle repair rant



## middle.road (Nov 22, 2020)

(whine, whimper, rant.)
Someone mentioned in another thread that:
"The designer's need to work 'repair' on the vehicles they design..." -_Ain't it the truth_?!!
I helped out a friend this week and replaced the steering gear box and the high pressure PS line on his GMC 2500 Duramax.
He's on the road more than he's home and he's still recovering from knee surgery.
Went pretty smoothly, weather has been good, thankfully the truck is not a rusted mess. Pitman arm fought removal but finally got that off. PS hose was simple.

But then, I made a parts run with Honey's old Caddy and that headed South real quick.
The alternator is water cooled, and the two short hoses down under there gave out. At least it waited until I was back in the driveway.
However the PS Pressure hose was not so thoughtful. After my last stop it started squealing and by the time I pull in the driveway it was very stiff.
I replaced the radiator back during the summer and replaced a number of the smaller hoses up on the topside - didn't do the alternator. 
So yesterday I decided I'd get to repairing the beast. I want to use it as a winter vehicle to keep the Buick away from the salt.
First off you can't get to two of the hose clamps leading down to the alternator. I figure all that is put on the engine before it's dropped in during assembly.
(Now if you happen to have the radiator out. . . Hindsight is so wonderful.)

Then the PS hose. (3) hours later after a whole lot of cussing and head scratching we had it out. On the truck it took me 20 mins for R&R.
The way this hose assy is routed is unbelievable.
I seriously do not know if I'll be able to get the replacement back in.
Why didn't they design it in two pieces? Perhaps a connection on the longer flexible portion? I know it would add more cost to each vehicle but. . .
I really thought I'd be able to get this all done in one afternoon.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 22, 2020)

just be glad you didn't have to work on a forklift 
they stuff 10# of shinola into a 5# bag


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## middle.road (Nov 22, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> just be glad you didn't have to work on a forklift
> they stuff 10# of shinola into a 5# bag


A whole 5# bag? whoa, lucky. 
Been there, done that, was younger and more agile. <whine>
I remember having to 'take apart' a 5000#, including the d*mn counter weight to do repairs.
Or like the skidsteer?
Or the Kid's '93 300ZX? 
Or like <Insert Here>?


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 22, 2020)

I only work on my 'old' vehicles (63 VW Crewcab and '68 GMC C2500). Our 'new' vehicles go to the shop for anything beyond the simplest jobs. Those include my cars (an '88 Honda CRX, 2 ea. '88 Honda Civic Wagon RT4WD), and mama's ('06 Toyota Matrix AWD and '07 Prius). It looks like a very used car lot out there, but it's never a crisis when a car won't start. The ever increasing levels of complexity in cars look like nothing but $$$$$$ to me, and I believe there is actual intent behind the difficulty/impossibility of repair.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 22, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> I only work on my 'old' vehicles (63 VW Crewcab and '68 GMC C2500). Our 'new' vehicles go to the shop for anything beyond the simplest jobs. Those include my cars (an '88 Honda CRX, 2 ea. '88 Honda Civic Wagon RT4WD), and mama's ('06 Toyota Matrix AWD and '07 Prius). It looks like a very used car lot out there, but it's never a crisis when a car won't start. The ever increasing levels of complexity in cars look like nothing but $$$$$$ to me, and I believe there is actual intent behind the difficulty/impossibility of repair.


to my horror i have learned,
there are pending lawsuits in US Federal Courts from Auto Manufacturers and Equipment Manufacturers, as we speak, attempting to prevent and prosecute owners working on their own vehicles or equipment.
greed has taken over


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 22, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> to my horror i have learned,
> there are pending lawsuits in US Federal Courts from Auto Manufacturers and Equipment Manufacturers, as we speak, attempting to prevent and prosecute owners working on their own vehicles or equipment.
> greed has taken over



I suspect those suits will go nowhere. Once you buy it, it's yours to do with as you please. Can you provide a link? I'd like to read up.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 22, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> I suspect those suits will go nowhere. Once you buy it, it's yours to do with as you please. Can you provide a link? I'd like to read up.


while not the actual lawsuit i heard of, these reads may send chills down your spine.
Google Right To Repair- for hours of fun- it will make you sick.

here is a piece on John Deere, the agreement you make when purchasing a Deere


			https://www.deere.com/assets/pdfs/common/privacy-and-data/docs/agreement_pdfs/english/2016-10-28-Embedded-Software-EULA.pdf
		










						Tractor-Hacking Farmers Are Leading a Revolt Against Big Tech's Repair Monopolies
					

Farmers across the country are fighting John Deere's repair monopoly—and winning.




					www.vice.com


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## Superburban (Nov 22, 2020)

Some of those law suits have to do with using the vehicles computer to diagnose the faults. Like most software, you do not own it, only have the rights to use it for specified reasons, and they exclude diagnosing. Or a lot of the new parts have to be programed to work with the computer (Like adding a new computer to a wifi router), and they are saying that is a violation.

The other sad issue, is many manfacturers are changing simple parts every year, so down the road parts will be hard to come by due to the low demand.


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## ErichKeane (Nov 22, 2020)

middle.road said:


> A whole 5# bag? whoa, lucky.
> Been there, done that, was younger and more agile. <whine>
> I remember having to 'take apart' a 5000#, including the d*mn counter weight to do repairs.
> Or like the skidsteer?
> ...


Heh, I have a '90 300ZX Twin Turbo.  It has the least amount of room in an engine bay I've ever seen!


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## Superburban (Nov 22, 2020)

I guess pulling the intake to replace a starter may not be as bad as hiving to pull the engine, or body as some others are.


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## pontiac428 (Nov 22, 2020)

I think UD is right.  Big automakers, particularly domestic ones, are losing money left and right (because they can't sell good cars instead).  They can make a profit by forcing you to change your oil at the dealer.  They can deny selling parts unless through the dealer.  Some big business friendly lawmakers have been keen to side with their big money.  I haven't been following closely, because it sounds like another predictable case of greed during a time of greed and strife, but it's a thing, and if it interests you, you'll find it on the web.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 22, 2020)

Superburban said:


> I guess pulling the intake to replace a starter may not be as bad as hiving to pull the engine, or body as some others are.


that has to be the stupidest placement for a starter i have seen 
they are trying to make every repair a major event


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## pontiac428 (Nov 22, 2020)

Could you imagine dragging your tool box out to the line to work on a Mercedes-Benz V8 without knowing that the starter was under the intake manifold?  That sounds like good hazing fun for the new guy.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 22, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> Could you imagine dragging your tool box out to the line to work on a Mercedes-Benz V8 without knowing that the starter was under the intake manifold?  That sounds like good hazing fun for the new guy.


for hazing, we used to send the new guy out for :
Rope Magnets
Board Stretchers
Muffler Bearings
Blinker Fluid
Air Cooled Engine Antifreeze
Right Angle Drill Bits
Snipe Bag and Snipe Lure ( for the soon to follow Snipe Hunt after a few pints )


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## pontiac428 (Nov 22, 2020)

In the Army, we had our own flavor:
Bucket of propwash
Box of grid squares
Chem light batteries
Vehicle exhaust sample (my favorite)
Ask around for where to find a PRC-E8
Come back with an ID-10T
I'm sure I'm forgetting a million of them...  But it starts to make sense why power tools are not allowed in an Army motorpool.


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## pdentrem (Nov 22, 2020)

Bag of steam
Can of compression


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## addertooth (Nov 22, 2020)

I have ran across a few "unremovable parts without yanking the engine".  I always think the engineers who designed those cars were a bit dim.   Even so, in one of the examples above (a hose that is a mixture of rubber hose and hard line), I would simply cut the rubber, remove the two pieces, then cut the new hose in the same place, and butt-splice and clamp the rubber hose back together.  The worst (car) I ever had to deal with was the innocuous 1980 Chevy Monza.  To replace the starter, the manual specified pulling the engine. There was a way to do it without pulling the engine, as it was only the exhaust manifold that actually made the critical blockage.  Dropping an exhaust manifold was much easier than yanking the engine. Replacing the Distributer cap on the same car required you to disconnect the fuel line, throttle linkage, and removing the intake manifold to have the clearance to lift the cap high enough to get off.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 22, 2020)

Superburban said:


> Or a lot of the new parts have to be programed to work with the computer.



I have a 10 year old Mini Cooper that finally needed a battery last year.  I learned that a battery replacement requires
reprogramming a computer so the alternator will play nicely with it.   Unbelievable!


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## Nogoingback (Nov 22, 2020)

addertooth said:


> I have ran across a few "unremovable parts without yanking the engine".  I always think the engineers who designed those cars were a bit dim.   Even so, in one of the examples above (a hose that is a mixture of rubber hose and hard line), I would simply cut the rubber, remove the two pieces, then cut the new hose in the same place, and butt-splice and clamp the rubber hose back together.  The worst (car) I ever had to deal with was the innocuous 1980 Chevy Monza.  To replace the starter, the manual specified pulling the engine. There was a way to do it without pulling the engine, as it was only the exhaust manifold that actually made the critical blockage.  Dropping an exhaust manifold was much easier than yanking the engine. Replacing the Distributer cap on the same car required you to disconnect the fuel line, throttle linkage, and removing the intake manifold to have the clearance to lift the cap high enough to get off.



I suspect that ease of disassembly isn't even on the priority list for those engineers.  Because new cars have so much more stuf under the hood than they used to, just cramming everything in is probably difficult. And of course job number one is make it cheaply, and so it goes together at the factory easily.


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## addertooth (Nov 22, 2020)

NoGoingBack,
I agree with what you said on their priorities. 
Some brands  and models are easier.   Some brands I will not buy, as I turn a wrench on my own cars (assuming I have the tools). I still pay an alignment shop to do suspension alignments.


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## DHarris (Nov 22, 2020)

addertooth said:


> I have ran across a few "unremovable parts without yanking the engine".  I always think the engineers who designed those cars were a bit dim.   Even so, in one of the examples above (a hose that is a mixture of rubber hose and hard line), I would simply cut the rubber, remove the two pieces, then cut the new hose in the same place, and butt-splice and clamp the rubber hose back together.  The worst (car) I ever had to deal with was the innocuous 1980 Chevy Monza.  To replace the starter, the manual specified pulling the engine. There was a way to do it without pulling the engine, as it was only the exhaust manifold that actually made the critical blockage.  Dropping an exhaust manifold was much easier than yanking the engine. Replacing the Distributer cap on the same car required you to disconnect the fuel line, throttle linkage, and removing the intake manifold to have the clearance to lift the cap high enough to get off.


Remember there are C- engineering students in EVERY graduating class!!!!   Makes you wonder!??


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## mattthemuppet2 (Nov 22, 2020)

replaced a water pump pulley on a '13 MIni Cooper that required jacking up the engine and using a crow bar to get out. Had a proper workout doing that job, but got paid in smoked pork butt, so it was worth it!

The Ford Focus that you had to jack the engine up (with left side mount removed) and then down to remove the water pump was another peach.


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## 682bear (Nov 22, 2020)

My brother had a Honda Element that developed an intermittent no-start issue... he took it to the local Honda dealer for repair.

$1400 later... he still had the no-start issue...

He was complaining about it that Sunday... I asked a couple of questions, then advised him to replace the starter. He said 'no, the Honda mechanic said the starter is good'.

2 weeks later, after it refused to start at all, I told him if he would buy the starter, I would install it.  I obviously didn't realize what all was involved in replacing the starter. It was on the front of the engine under the exhaust manifold.

I had to remove the hood, hood latch plate, electric fan/shroud, radiator, intake/exhaust manifold, and finally managed to remove the starter. 

It fixed the no-start issue, though, which is something the local dealer couldn't seem to do.

-Bear


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## 682bear (Nov 22, 2020)

Nogoingback said:


> I have a 10 year old Mini Cooper that finally needed a battery last year.  I learned that a battery replacement requires
> reprogramming a computer so the alternator will play nicely with it.   Unbelievable!



My wife had a '14 Ford Escape that had to be reprogrammed after a battery replacement. She has owned 2 vehicles that I couldn't get rid of fast enough... one was the Escape, the other was a '95 Buick Skylark, the most unreliable POS I've ever heard of... bit that is another story...

-Bear


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## middle.road (Nov 22, 2020)

Well it's in. Went in a tad easier than it came out - With Honey's help.
Does anyone else here hear '_Let me try a Woman's touch_'? - It worked.
Still took way too long. And I haven't got it bled properly yet.
Three 3/8" coolant lines replaced. The kid at O'Reilly's tried to give me fuel line. I gave him the P/N for Gates and a lesson in hoses.
I by gosh am going to get a couple of more years out of this Caddy.

All our vehicles are pre-2001. I'd love to take them to a shop, but the prices are over-board and the quality is sub-sub-par.
The Buick is the Gem of the lot. 1998 Park Avenue, 78K on the odo.

The starter on the Seville is the same as shown in posts above. I truly have come to *Hate* Northstars. Now if I'd had one new that might be a different story. If it goes out, it's all over... 

Anyone remember drilling out holes in a Monza wheel well to change the spark plugs?

How about changing a thermostat on a Mustang II with a V8 in it? Had to yank the distributor, then of course, mess up the timing, start over. . .

We're not even discussing the Kid's 300ZX - he bought it without consulting with the Ol' Man first.  
He's relocated to Texas and the vehicle is sitting in our driveway. Got to sell that sometime.

Anyone remember the 'doghouse' vans of the '60s? I was tuning up GrandDad's Dodge and the screwdriver slipped while trying to set the dwell.
Broke the tang off in the oil pump shaft. Had to drop the pan. . . Lesson learned. Two hands on the screwdriver while someone else cranks.

It ain't the repair that hurts, it's the crawling in & out from under the vehicle that does an Ol' Goat in. . .


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## eugene13 (Nov 22, 2020)

middle.road said:


> I ain't the repair that hurts, it's the crawling in & out from under the vehicle that does an Ol' Goat in.


Ain't it the truth.


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## Cheeseking (Nov 22, 2020)

Im going to top all you guys..

I helped my neighbor tackle a “routine” shade tree mechanic job of replacing a water pump last summer. He decided to do it himself after Dealer literally quoted him $3,500
Insane. After doing the job which involved pretty much tearing the whole top and front ends of the engine apart and several weekends, I see why they charge that. 

Google “Ford Flex water pump replacement” if you doubt me.

Btw this affects all Ford 3.5L V6 ecoboost engines.     Anyone consider buying a vehicle with one in it need to do your research on the water pump issue.   May not be a common problem but if you’re unlucky brace for the bill.


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## rwm (Nov 22, 2020)

What is that Make/Model with the starter under the manifold???
Robert


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## Superburban (Nov 22, 2020)

rwm said:


> What is that Make/Model with the starter under the manifold???
> Robert


I do not recall, I saved that pic a few years back. As I recall from that thread (Not on here), there are several cars that do that now. Also a common procedure of the ford diesel pickups where you need to remove the cab. 

I know there is very little I will do to my Pacifica hybrid, all the motors, alternators, and stuff are built in the ECVT tranny. The 10 year, 100,000 mile warranty was an additional $2K, well worth it in my book. I'll stick to working on my old Dodge trucks.


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## pontiac428 (Nov 22, 2020)

My wife had a 98 Ford Contour which was a trouble free car for 90k miles.  I had to cut a hole in the floor under the back seat to change out the fuel pump.  The job makes changing the fuel pumps underneath a Bradley's turret look like a nice way to spend an afternoon.


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## Superburban (Nov 22, 2020)

Don't understand why only a few car companies put a hatch in the trunk/floor to swap out the fuel pumps. I had a suburban, that had the fuel pump go out. After dropping the pump, found out the ring that holds the pump assembly was rusted out. Had to buy a new tank, and pump. When assembling it, I saw a previous owner had made a hatch in the floor. Then the pump would still not work. so I pulled the rug, and opened the hatch, and started checking more. Also turns out the PO had punctured the wires to test them, and the hole caused the wires to corrode out inside the covering. Turned out the old pump was fine after all. Damm Pa and all their salt and calcium chloride on the winter roads.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 22, 2020)

While the new cars are worse, some of the older stuff wasn't much better.  I put a clutch in an XKE once.  I had to pretty
much dismantle the car to get the transmission off the engine.


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## Bi11Hudson (Nov 22, 2020)

middle.road said:


> (whine, whimper, rant.)
> Someone mentioned in another thread that:
> "The designer's need to work 'repair' on the vehicles they design..." -_Ain't it the truth_?!!
> I helped out a friend this week and replaced the steering gear box and the high pressure PS line on his GMC 2500 Duramax.
> ...



I could pursue such a rant for hours. . . That's why I have always stuck with older vehicles, usually trucks. The one exception was a Chev diesel truck that I acquired for business purposes. I had figured it to be (literaly) the last truch I ever bought. "Til I had to change the lower radiator hose, with all its' branches. Ended up having to get my nephew to do the work, I couldn't get in to it. This last stroke put me in a wheelchair, sold the diesel and bought an old ('68 C-30) gasoline truck with a dump bed on a PTO pump and a 283 engine. I need to pay someone to replace a couple of front wheel studs, but that's front end work and I been paying for that sort of work all my life. There's not much else to really go wrong. *AND NO COMPUTERS*. Not even on the ignition. Points and coil is all there is. The cab sheet metal is about as strong, almost, as paper. But it's a "southern truck" from Georga, so there's no "salt rot" underneath.
.

.


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## NortonDommi (Nov 22, 2020)

middle.road said:


> "The designer's need to work 'repair' on the vehicles they design..." -_Ain't it the truth_?!!


Yes it is the truth.  In the early 1980s I was working for a Mitsubishi dealer and Mr. Mitsubishi himself came out for a visit as the bloke I was working for had gone into head to head competition with the family that had the Mitsubishi import franchise. I still have the hat and sweatshirt Mr. Mitsubishi gave me after inspecting the layout of my bay and the job I was working on.
Through an interpreter he told me that all designers at Mitsubishi had two work outside the company servicing vehicles in the real world for two years after graduating university before being allowed to design anything for the company.  He also used to sweep the floor in one of his factories nice a week so he could hear about any problems.  He was in his 80s then.
Mitsubishi used to be a pleasure to work on then Mr. Mitsubishi died and things changed.
With modern vehicles it is often easier to drop the whole front subframe to work on the engine than in place.

P.S.  I hate working on little forkhoists!


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## Nogoingback (Nov 22, 2020)

I think Porsche takes the cake on this.  Some models require engine removal to change the plugs!  Good thing they last a long
time.


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## ErichKeane (Nov 22, 2020)

Nogoingback said:


> I think Porsche takes the cake on this.  Some models require engine removal to change the plugs!  Good thing they last a long
> time.


Ford Lightning had that. It was the biggest PITA ever, didn't even use platinums, so they needed replacement every 20k or so.


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## Jim F (Nov 22, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Ford Lightning had that. It was the biggest PITA ever, didn't even use platinums, so they needed replacement every 20k or so.


I left Ford in 2012, just about everything was remove cab or drop powertrain to do engine work.


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