# Still shopping around for a mill, what are the opinions on Wells-Index?



## ScrapMetal (Apr 10, 2012)

Specifically the model 860 C - "Coverts from a vertical to a horizontal mill in less than 5 minutes" http://www.wellsindex.com/  It sounds like that would be perfect.  The 847 doesn't look too bad either.

What do you guys think about them?

-Ron


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## AR1911 (Apr 10, 2012)

Well-Index is good stuff, some consider them better than a BP.
Wells is still in business and supports their products


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## ScrapMetal (Apr 10, 2012)

AR1911 said:


> Well-Index is good stuff, some consider them better than a BP.
> Wells is still in business and supports their products



Yep, all reasons that I started to put them into consideration.  I'm really kind of drawn to the vertical/horizontal mill, seems like the "best of both worlds" but I hope to get more info on whether or not they are as useful as they look.

-Ron


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## ScrapMetal (Apr 18, 2012)

Okay, I would really, really like to get a little more input on these.  I am really "jones'n" for this 860 but do it's capabilities justify the expense over the 847?  Is the 847 more than enough machine?

Here's the 860 info: http://68.227.91.247/machines/860ch.pdf



Then the 847: http://68.227.91.247/machines/847.pdf



I'm depending on some experienced input here (not necessarily with these machines but opinions on capabilities, etc.), so let's hear it.

Thanks,

-Ron


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## dickr (Apr 18, 2012)

There's all kinds of questions to ask on this subject. What type of work will you be doing ? Is this for business or a hobby ? Are finances a large consideration. With some extra effort you can do anything on a vertical that you'd do on a horizontal and vice versa. You also could spend the extra for a DRO on the vertical. If you get the Horiz/Vert combo you're gonna need more tools, but again that depends on the type of work you're gonna be doing. If this is for a shop where there's more than one person then you need to consider separate machines possibly. My self I would go for the vertical alone unless money was not a big consideration. One thing to consider and it's only my opinion is the knucklehead is not as strong as the fixed head but folks have done wonders with knucklehead so it's up to you. Horizontals are pretty much production machines unless it's the only one you got!
Hope I didn't confuse the issue
dickr


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## brucer (Apr 18, 2012)

847 with a good set of readouts..


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## 4GSR (Apr 18, 2012)

Get the 860!!!!

Ever since I laid eyes on a new one back in 1980, I've wanted one.  I have a 645 Index mill, but there is times I wish I had that horizontal spindle for heavy milling.


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## ScrapMetal (Apr 18, 2012)

dickr said:


> There's all kinds of questions to ask on this subject. What type of work will you be doing ? Is this for business or a hobby ? Are finances a large consideration. With some extra effort you can do anything on a vertical that you'd do on a horizontal and vice versa. You also could spend the extra for a DRO on the vertical. If you get the Horiz/Vert combo you're gonna need more tools, but again that depends on the type of work you're gonna be doing. If this is for a shop where there's more than one person then you need to consider separate machines possibly. My self I would go for the vertical alone unless money was not a big consideration. One thing to consider and it's only my opinion is the knucklehead is not as strong as the fixed head but folks have done wonders with knucklehead so it's up to you. Horizontals are pretty much production machines unless it's the only one you got!
> Hope I didn't confuse the issue
> dickr



Good questions all.   I don't KNOW what kind of work I'll be doing.  I have some things in mind but plans/directions are subject to change.  It'll be more of a hobby but some things I do may have business application though I don't ever plan to go in to production with anything, more of an R & D.  Right now I can think of a couple of things that the horizontal would excel at.  The future?  Unknown.  Finances aren't much of an issue (It's more a matter of whether my wife gives me "the look" or "THE look"  )  It'll be a one man operation.  I don't even know anyone locally that does machining.  Just hope my son will be interested as he gets older.



brucer said:


> 847 with a good set of readouts..



Anything more specific as to why?  I'm sure the 847 is a capable machine but I need all the input I can get before I'm willing to pry open the old wallet.



4gsr said:


> Get the 860!!!!
> 
> Ever since I laid eyes on a new one back in 1980, I've wanted one.  I have a 645 Index mill, but there is times I wish I had that horizontal spindle for heavy milling.



Unfortunately, that is my gut instinct as well. :thumbzup:  I'm really trying to approach this in a manner that, shall we say, (or my wife says ) is more appropriate for my age. :biggrin:

I really tend towards a machine that I perceive to have more flexibility and capabilities.  What I really don't know, in this case, is if I am losing something or making a compromise that wouldn't be in my best interests as Dick brought up with the knuckleheads possibly being less rigid.  That's where it would be great to have input from those who have actually worked with such machine (this model would be too much to hope for).  I, like all of us, would like to get the best, most accurate machine I can even if my skills aren't up to the machine.  I can always grow my skills. At least I would hope so. 

I did tell my wife last night that I was looking at spending a considerable amount of money for a mill.  She's tighter with money than I am but she'd never begrudge me a new "toy" that I was really set on getting.  She's truly a treasure.

-Ron


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## ScrapMetal (Apr 21, 2012)

Okay, I decided I would like to get the 860 if I can find the right machine, price, etc.  Most likely have to ship it.  At the moment I can only find two of them for sale on the 'net.  The one on the 'bay has some issues...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7429-WELLS-...392?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414f1f0d90

The one from Norman machine looks to be in better shape and sounds like it all works but it's also twice the price...

http://www.normanmachinetool.com/used_product_desc.php?pid=753&prod=MILL_WELLS_INDEX_

Any opinions on the prices/values of these two machines?

Thanks,

-Ron


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## rmsflorida (Apr 21, 2012)

About 1980 I worked as a in house machinist for a large printing company ..
Had installed a machine shop and bought a Excello 602 mill ..A great mill,
I like the Excello because it had a quill travel a little bit more then 6"..Great for the jobs that I was doing..
When I started my busisness I wanted to buy a new Excello..but they stop making them.
I searched the local iron mongers and came across the Wells-Index at Norman Machine Tool in Baltimore, Md.
The sales person said that the quill traveled 6-1/2 "
So I bought it. 
I had to wait almost 8 months for three phase power for my home shop before I unwrapped it and started to run it.
I found that the dealer was mistake in the quill travel...5" like a Bridgeport..
Very disappointing.
I had a OPPS the first week that I ran it..The feed trip /quill stop is a quick release sliding stop with a brass thumb screw to lock the stop from moving.
A poor design..
Have a 2'' dia. gouge .015 deep in the table because of it.I have to cover it up a folded shop rag looking at...it upsets me so.
Overall ....the Well-Index held up very well. 
A one man shop no real production. 
32 years and you can still see the scrapings on the ways (having way covers)

Not much out there for "New" good machines.
Wells-Index  ---Made in America !---

Robbie
Robbie's Machine Service


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## ScrapMetal (May 7, 2012)

Well, mistake or not (hopefully "not" ) I just purchased a machine that was listed on e-bay.  It has a couple of issues that will need to be taken care of but still didn't seem to be too bad of deal.

It's a Wells-Index 860 "universal" type mill.



Now comes the fun part - trying to get it "home".   The folks I bought it from are supposed to get me some shipping quotes.  If they come in about where they estimated I'll have it shipped.  If not, I'll drive the 12 hours or so to pick it up myself.  The most interesting part will be the unloading.  If it's shipped I'll have to find a way to coordinate the delivery time with the rental of something to unload with.  I keep telling the wife that I NEED my own forklift. :biggrin:  She just doesn't see it that way. :biggrin:

This should be interesting,

-Ron


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## Gary Max (May 7, 2012)

Funny Ron-----my wife keeps trying to talk me into buying a forklift. When I finally get a mill I think I will have a tow truck pick it up and I will drive the trailer out from under it. Then let him set it on the ground and I will move it into the shop with a Railroad bar and some pipe.


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## ScrapMetal (May 7, 2012)

That's sort of what I did with my shaper.  Instead of the tow truck I went and rented a forklift, used it to lift the shaper in the bed of my truck and then drove out from under it.  The forklift wouldn't fit in to the garage door though so I had to set it down just inside the entrance.  It still sits there but I've since picked up a foldable 2-ton hoist that, along with a large pry bar (and maybe some pipe), will be the method of re-location. :thinking:  Gotta move it to fit the mill in. :biggrin:

Anyway...  It was a very cool forklift, ran on propane even. I may be seeing it again in the near future.  A lot depends on the delivery guys, if delivered.

-Ron


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## Gary Max (May 7, 2012)

I did take a peak to see if you where heading out my way but I see it's in Mi.-------:biggrin:


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## Old Iron (May 7, 2012)

Ron what is the taper on it, Looks like a NMTB 30 or 40.:thinking: If it was a 50 I could help you out with some tooling.

Paul


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## ScrapMetal (May 7, 2012)

Much appreciated Paul.  I won't know for sure until I get it but when I questioned them about it, the answer I got was, "I think it's a standard 30 or 40 taper".  Judging from his demeanor I'm translating that as "I'm not sure what it has."

Right now I don't know how long it will be before I get my grubby paws on it. :bitingnails:  Hopefully I'll get a better idea of that in the next couple of days.  Once I do have it, then the questions and pictures as well as pleas for help will be posted in torrents. :biggrin:

It may be even longer before I get it powered up though as it's a 3-phase 440v setup.  What I currently have is single phase and 220v.  Something definitely has to change. (I will be posting in the "Powering Up" section. )

Thanks,

-Ron


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## Tony Wells (May 7, 2012)

Paul,
 you saying you have some surplus 50 tooling?


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## 8ntsane (May 7, 2012)

Ron
Nice looking piece of equipment you purchased.
And you wifey let this go down, and she didnt even give you the (LOOK):whistle:

You must have a women that understands your addictions Ron.
When my old lady give me the (LOOK),,,,I swear it could cut slap through tool steel!:lmao::lmao::lmao:
You Know the Look! Like what the hell are you thinking :*****slap:
:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Congrats on the new purchase, and thanks for getting that file for me the other day too. 


Unloading should be easy. I used to have a forklift, but got rid of it a few yrs ago. I have moved mills a few times, and just call your local towing company. You will need the type with a extendable boom. The recovery, and accident chasers have that type of truck. Fast and easy job for them to pick it up off a truck or trailer, and set it down close to the gararge door for you.
I had my mill lifted off the back of the truck, and the guy was able to set the mill down just inside the shop door. From there, I had some 3/8 od round stock, and a few bars to roll it to its resting place.


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## ScrapMetal (May 8, 2012)

8ntsane said:


> Ron
> Nice looking piece of equipment you purchased.
> And you wifey let this go down, and she didnt even give you the (LOOK):whistle:
> 
> ...




Don't assume too much there, my wife may have given me the look.  I don't know.  I told her that I bought the mill from the other room.    I've been married long enough (20+ yrs) to know a few tricks. :biggrin:  I have to give her plenty of credit though, she might not understand my addiction but she tolerates it fairly well. 

I'll have to see what kind of wrecker the auto shop next door has, that might be just the ticket.

-Ron


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## Old Iron (May 8, 2012)

42 said:


> Paul,
> you saying you have some surplus 50 tooling?




Depends on what your looking for!

Paul


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## ScrapMetal (May 12, 2012)

Just thought I'd give an update.  I was less than impressed with the responses I got from the carriers that gave a quote.  I sent them a couple questions and received no response - not a good way to do business IMHO.   I did do a little research though and came upon a bit of a quandry.  The "preferable" way that they would have shipped it involved a flat trailer/tractor but I can't get one of those in my parking lot or near my shop, it's just too tight.  To deal with this they would have had to find a different, smaller delivery type truck.  Now, on a flatbed they would not have to crate/pallet the mill it would just be strapped down and it would stay on the truck through the entire route.  If they have to use a delivery truck it would require a pallet/crate and it would be loaded/unloaded an unknown number of times in transfers from truck to truck.

I did not want to go that route as there is just too much potential for disaster.   So, being unhappy with the carrier anyway and knowing it would be a high risk proposition, I decided to drive up to MI and get it myself.  I'm going to see if I can find a flatbed trailer to rent on Saturday so that I can take off Sunday morning.

Yes, I'll have some pics of the good, bad or ugly. :biggrin:

-Ron


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## Charley Davidson (May 12, 2012)

I would check into a UHaul trailer one way (back) might be a less expensive option if they have something heavy enough, also Uhauls are generally lower to the ground. Just a thought

Good Luck


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## brucer (May 12, 2012)

look for a drop deck trailer to rent..


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## ScrapMetal (May 12, 2012)

Thanks guys.  I went looking for a trailer today at one of the few rental places available.  My "go to" place had the perfect setup, a hydraulic drop deck trailer that could handle up to 2.5 tons, perfect!  Now, here's where I made the mistake - I should have lied, with a big lie, lie, lie, lie.   They asked where I was going to take it and I blurted out, "Michigan".  They said, "Sorry, we don't let our trailers go more than 150 miles away."  So, I'm out of luck there, crap!

Made my way back to the office, grabbed the phone book, about to start dialing when I had an incoming call.  Pick it up and my wife says, "Don't get a trailer, don't!"  With my normal brilliant and witty repartee I said, "Ummm, okay......".

Turns out she was just on the phone with her brother and he offered me the use of his flatbed trailer.  It's a couple hour drive but it's right on the way.  It's not ideal (the drop deck sure was) but now that I have a "free" option it'd be difficult to say "no".

So, I have a trailer but unloading is going to be more difficult than I had hoped.  Since it's not a rental I do have extra time to unload it so that gives me a couple of different options to try before I call for the forklift rental. I'll consider it a "wash". :biggrin:

-Ron


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## 4GSR (May 12, 2012)

Ron,

My brother just moved a 9J Gorton mill, which is about as heavy and the same size as the Index 860 mill, a couple of week ago. I loaded it using the over head crane that was availale to us onto a car hauler trailer.  We sat it on a couple of land scape timbers they had handy and strapped it down and off they went down the road.
After they go home with it, about a 170 mile trip, they ran lag bolts into the timbers to hold them in place.  Took a come a long and pulled it off the trailer down the ramps of the trailer to the garage floor.
The trick to moving a mill is to get the center of gravity as low as you can get.  Crank the knee all the way down as far as it will go.  Next turn the verticle head upside down, or take it off.  Not much you can do for the horzontal spindle.  You should be ready to drag it off the trailer.  Make sure to bolt a couple of runners (timber) to the base of the mill to control the tilting when it comes off the trailer.  Jack up the trailer tounge as high as you can get it and block up the back end of the trailer and choke all of the tires on the trailer and truck/car.
Don't get in any hurry, take your time and work safely!
Good luck!


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## Charley Davidson (May 12, 2012)

Benny has a slick way of getting heavy equipment off his trailer. Make sure you set the machine on some cribbing and lag it down. With a winch from the front to keep the machine from running away take the tires off the rear axle and jack the front as high as it will go lowering the rear deck almost to the ground then we used a pallet jack to roll it off the trailer, he also has a piece of 1/2" plate to smooth the transition.


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## ScrapMetal (May 12, 2012)

Useful ideas guys.  I'll see if I can incorporate those when it's time to unload.  I foresee a lot of improvisation in my near future. :biggrin:

-Ron


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## Rbeckett (May 13, 2012)

Do you have an engine hoist or a freind at a shop?  I used an engine hoist to load and unload my 3-in-1 and Plasma table.  My hoist will lift up to 2 tons so I am pretty sure it will lift all but the heaviest home shop stuff.  Like the others have said, get the CG as low as possible and work safe, fingers and toes dont grow back if you make a mistake.  Hope this helps and that you get her home and wired in soon.  'Cause we need some new pics of your shop and new goodies.
Bob


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## ScrapMetal (May 14, 2012)

Hi guys,

I'm up in Grand Rapids at the moment.  Just got in to a hotel room and off the phone to my wife.  She likes to keep tabs on me. 

I do have a two-ton "crane" and am planning to make use of it.  Don't think it will work with the trailer too well though.  We'll see when I get back home.  Planning to pick it up first thing in the morning.

-Ron


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## Tony Wells (May 14, 2012)

If worse comes to worse, you might consider a partial disassembly to get it into manageable chunks. 4 bolts hold the turret/ram assembly on, and that should lighten the load considerably. Probably not worth removing the entire knee, but the top weighs about 600 lbs (est.) and that should lower the CG even more. An engine crane can handle the unload if you plan it out. Otherwise, on skids and rollers is the way to go, using a couple of come-a-longs to keep things under control


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## ScrapMetal (May 15, 2012)

Time to figure out how I'm going to unload it.  I didn't bother to lower the vertical head before transporting for a couple of reasons.  One, I was tired and wanted to get going on the trip back home.  Two, I didn't have any good information on the proper way to do without hurting it or myself.  I also figured that with the horizontal motor on the back they kind of balanced each other out.  Right or wrong, it worked.  I didn't even have to tighten the straps on the way home so I know it didn't move.

I'm planning on taking the vertical head off before attempting to get it off the trailer.  I have to take it off to get it through the garage door anyway. 



That sure looks like a "military" stencil on there...





Here's the serial number plate.  Doesn't really give any useful info other than which oils it prefers.




It did come with some collets and other misc. stuff. 






Getting this thing off of here and through my little garage door is going to be a neat trick.  I'll work on a plan as soon as my brain starts functioning again (looong drive last night).  I have to figure out where to move some things that are already in the shop, like a big 16" shaper, to try and make room for this beast. :thinking:

-Ron


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## Charley Davidson (May 15, 2012)

That thing is a monster, a handsome monster though That thing don't make chips, it makes chunks:lmao:
Congrats and keep us updated on the unload/setup & first run.


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## ScrapMetal (May 15, 2012)

Charley Davidson said:


> That thing is a monster, a handsome monster though That thing don't make chips, it makes chunks:lmao:
> Congrats and keep us updated on the unload/setup & first run.



Thanks Charlie.  From the guy the just bought not one but *two* Bridgeports, I take that as a real compliment.  :biggrin:   I'll certainly keep everyone apprised as to how I proceed from here, it should be fine entertainment.  :lmao:

The next thing is to figure out how to strap up the vertical head so it doesn't do some kind of somersault and crash to the ground when I put the crane on it and unbolt it. :bitingnails:

-Ron


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## Charley Davidson (May 15, 2012)

You should start a new thread appropriately named for this mill and updates. It really deserves it's own thread:high5::tiphat: and will draw more attention. Either way I'm hooked now.


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## ScrapMetal (May 16, 2012)

Good idea Charley, will do. :thumbzup:

-Ron


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## gahux (Mar 18, 2013)

Congratulations on the Wells Index! I've got a CNC 700 that I converted to PC use with Mach 3. The people at Wells Index are great to work with. They really back their machines and their customers. Enjoy! BTW that mill will weigh plenty.....be ready. Built like a tank, but weighs like one too.


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## ScrapMetal (Mar 18, 2013)

gahux said:


> Congratulations on the Wells Index! I've got a CNC 700 that I converted to PC use with Mach 3. The people at Wells Index are great to work with. They really back their machines and their customers. Enjoy! BTW that mill will weigh plenty.....be ready. Built like a tank, but weighs like one too.



Thanks.  I have been slowly getting it "up to par".  I have replaced the "X" power feed and the air pressure regulator/oiler for the power draw bar.  I've been using it for small jobs but for the more complex and higher accuracy type stuff is still waiting on me getting a new DRO for it.  I, without a doubt, love the machine though.  My first "big" project on it is going to be finishing up the arbor support for horizontal milling.  That should be "interesting" at the very least.

-Ron


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## olivercat1 (Mar 26, 2013)

wells-lamont co. take very good care of there clintelle & are  very knoweldgeable about other vertical milling machines. I talked & alot about my 1940-or1939 round ram bridgeport. There are not alot of round ram mills left out trere.


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## AR1911 (Oct 1, 2013)

Does that 1/2-ton pull a car OK?   The mill weighs about what a small car does. It's all probably well within the towing capacity of that small pickup.


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## itsme_Bernie (Oct 1, 2013)

*Re: i'm also in the quest for a Wells-Index mill and i found one.*



JB said:


> hey Scrap Metal, that's a sharp looking wells index mill.  i'm going to rent a pickup, likely it'll take a 3/4 ton because i'm going over 500 miles to pick it up with my dual axle car trailer.  my dodge full size pickup has a v-6 with a six speed manual trans, and i know that there's a good chance i'd fry the clutch if i were to pull it with the wells index strapped to my trailer.  i may end up getting to the mill and removing the boom/ram and head and haul that in the bed of my pickup.  that should make the knee, table and base at around 1200 lbs i'd think.  do you think i'd be better off renting a 3/4 ton or one ton to pull my trailer?  the only thing wrong with the mill is that the quill feed gear is screwed up.  that should be a pretty simple fix, and parts are available.  i'll have the ram and head off the pedestal anyway.  ideas,thoughts,or suggestions anyone???



I drag lots of big machines, in a 1200lb trailer with my 1/4 ton Tacoma.  Does your truck have a "Low" setting for tough starts uphill?  



Bernie


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## 4GSR (Oct 1, 2013)

My dad brought home "half" of a No. 3 Brown & Sharpe mill in the back end of his 1973 Toyota 1/2 ton Hilx pu back in its time.  Needless to say, he didn't go over 45 mph.  Only had to go 45 miles from downtown Houston to Conroe, just north of Houston.  This was back in 1974.  I sure in the heck would not do it today!

Later in life in 1982, I drove up to Illinois and picked up a No. 9J Gorton mill and hauled it back to Houston in the back end of dads newer GMC 1/2 diesel pu.  What a trip that was! 

Some of the things we would do to get a piece of machinery home!


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