# Mill/drill



## porthos (Aug 20, 2018)

what are the issues with a mill/drill that cause so many to condem them? i wat a smaller mill that will fit in a small space and has a shorter table. having a hard time locating a smaller "old american iron" mill.  getting impatient and considering a  PM mill/drill. that's the only one that i would buy. unfortunately the smaller mills are made in china.  anyway, what would i be sacrificeing with a mill/drill??


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## ttabbal (Aug 20, 2018)

The usual stuff really. Lower rigidity, smaller work area, etc.. 

If what you want is a smaller/lighter machine and you're willing to work with it's limitations, it beats a mill attachment on a lathe, or an X/Y table on a drill press.  

There's also the "import stuff sucks" group. There's some truth to that, but like any generalization, there are exceptions. There are some Taiwan made units out there, if you can get those, they are improved. If not, I would not hesitate to go with PM. I have one of their China made lathes (1127) and have been happy with it. For hobby use, I don't see a problem. From what I've read, the square column versions are easier to keep trammed, but I've seen good work done of Rong Fu and similar machines. 

I'm not sure there are common US made mills smaller than the Bridgeports. So is my BP a "mini-mill"?


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## Mitch Alsup (Aug 20, 2018)

Round column mills lose position when the spindle housing is moved up or down.
Square column mills avoid this problem, so do knee mills,...

This is important when one needs to bore and drill on the same index {x,y,z}. One bores with a boring head and drills with a drill chuck and drill bit. Since these are long (R8 chank) and the spindle throw is limited, one often has to move the table away from the nose in order to remove and insert tooling. The square column mills and the knee mills avoid this problem simply moving the part from the nose so adequate clearance is obtained to change tooling.

Round column mills are simply beefed up drill presses where the spindle bearings can take lateral loadings.
If I were you with your limited space, I would go for a square column mill.


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## BaronJ (Aug 20, 2018)

Hi Guys,

Whilst in general agreeing with the above comments, an awfully large number of machine tools, like mill drills are purchased by the inexperienced. These machines are either all good or all bad depending upon who you talk to.  Its good to ask the advice of the community and get feedback, there are many limitations of the various machines.  Some of which have been addressed above.  The bottom line is, you have to understand what it is that you want to do and then learn to work with the machine that you eventually end up with, new or old.


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## TerryH (Aug 20, 2018)

For me it was a financial decision more than anything else. I wanted to have some milling capability but could not afford even a used BP or other knee mill. I nabbed my Enco 105-110 mill/drill for $500 off Craig's list from the original owner. I understand it's limitations and I work around them. I'll likely never be able to afford a BP or other "real" mill and will likely never really need that capability for what I'll make in my shop so I'm happy with what I have. In the event that I do have opportunity to move to a more capable mill I feel like I can recoup all or most of my investment in the Enco.


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## RJSakowski (Aug 20, 2018)

I have owned a mill/drill for almost forty years.  They do have limitations.  They are lighter in weight and lack the rigidity of a Bridgeport class machine.  You do have to plan your work to avoid having to raise/lower the head if work registration is critical.  There are work-arounds, however.  To solve the problem of having to raise the head when changing from an end mill to a drill, I purchased a set of R8 collets and use a collet to mount my drills.  The difference in tool offsets is now only a couple of inches. 

 In the event of having to raise/lower the head, the problem can be reduced to having to re-register the machine to your work. I installed a 3 axis DRO on my mill/drill.  With that, and a rotary table, I was able to do some high precision four axis machining.   In the case where machining destroys my original reference, I will mount a small cylinder on end off to the side and use my edge finder to set 0.0.0 in my absolute coordinate system at the center of the top of the cylinder.  My work coordinate system is referenced to the absolute coordinate system so registration is restored.

The lack of rigidity means that you will be taking smaller cuts but you can still get the job done.  I installed a 3 axis DRO on my mill/drill.  With that, and a rotary table, I was able to do some high precision four axis machining.

I have a Tormach CNC mill now but I still go back to my mill/drill for various tasks.  For a hobby shop, it is a great choice.


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## bill70j (Aug 20, 2018)

I have owned a Smithy Granite 1324 for about 15 years.  I have had very good experience with it.  

Smithy has been around for a while - parts are readily available and their technical service group is first rate.

There is a Smithy user's group in Yahoo Groups, which has some members who have a lot of experience with the 3 In 1's including the Group founder who has a wealth of knowledge and practical experience using the Granite.  

I would rate the lathe very good and the mill adequate.  You can hit 0.0005 on the lathe.  I added a 3-Axis DRO and a QCTP, which has made the machine much more enjoyable to use.  What I also found is that the rigidity of the bench makes a huge difference in performance. The mill/drill is very top heavy, so it will really rock and roll unless it's affixed to a vert stout bench.

Under the same circumstances, I would make the same decision and buy the Smithy Granite.  I was limited on space, so that machine was a good choice at the time.  We have since moved, and I now have separate machines.  But I kept the Granite and use the late quite often.

I love my Smithy.


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## dtsh (Aug 20, 2018)

Everyone else has pretty much explained most of the limitations of a mill/drill. I've only occasionally had issues with work envelope on mine, but add up the height taken by a vise, boring head or other tooling and the usable space can diminish rapidly. That's less of a mill/drill issue than it is an issue with smaller machines in general, but it's still something to consider.

For the money, they're very capable machines and if you look around at some of the fine examples of work done on them it's hard not to be impressed with the capabilities. They've been around for decades for cheap, so getting a used one isn't especially hard but you may have to be patient to find an exceptional deal.


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## porthos (Aug 20, 2018)

thanks guys. if i can't come up with "old  iron" i will go the square column route


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> I have owned a mill/drill for almost forty years.  They do have limitations.  They are lighter in weight and lack the rigidity of a Bridgeport class machine.  You do have to plan your work to avoid having to raise/lower the head if work registration is critical.  There are work-arounds, however.  To solve the problem of having to raise the head when changing from an end mill to a drill, I purchased a set of R8 collets and use a collet to mount my drills.  The difference in tool offsets is now only a couple of inches.
> 
> In the event of having to raise/lower the head, the problem can be reduced to having to re-register the machine to your work. I installed a 3 axis DRO on my mill/drill.  With that, and a rotary table, I was able to do some high precision four axis machining.   In the case where machining destroys my original reference, I will mount a small cylinder on end off to the side and use my edge finder to set 0.0.0 in my absolute coordinate system at the center of the top of the cylinder.  My work coordinate system is referenced to the absolute coordinate system so registration is restored.
> 
> ...


Does it include cutting steel


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## Paul in OKC (Jun 18, 2019)

Owned a round column mill/drill for years and did good work on it. Like said, it has limitations, but those can be overcome with planning. I recently bought a new HF 33686, their big mill/drill for home use. Works fine.


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## wrmiller (Jun 18, 2019)

Interestingly, I had a 9x40 square column mill that would cut anything my current PM935 does. Including burying a 5/8" end mill in mild steel. My bench mill was Chinese and it took me a year of tuning it to get it to that point though, TBH. The main advantage to the 935 IMO is the knee makes it a bit easier to do some operations. Doesn't mean I can't do them on a bench mill though.

I built custom competition pistols on a Sherline mill and lathe, my PM25 and a SB1001 lathe, a Charter Oak (the 9x40) and now my 935 and a 1340GT lathe. Bigger machines make some things easier is all.

If I was in the market for a good quality bench mill right now the only one I would consider is the PM833. But that's just me. 

I would question the ability/skills of those who say good work can't be done on a square column bench mill, because I know for a fact that it can be. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.


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## markba633csi (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi: Yes mill/drills can cut steel


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## Superburban (Jun 18, 2019)

Mitch Alsup said:


> Round column mills are simply beefed up drill presses where the spindle bearings can take lateral loadings.
> If I were you with your limited space, I would go for a square column mill.


The rungfu 40 (round col), and the rungfu 45 (square col), use the same heads. I believe all of the rungfu series use the same quill.


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## bfd (Jun 19, 2019)

just plan on taking lots of light cuts instead of one or two heavier ones otherwise it will do the job bill


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## MarkM (Jun 21, 2019)

Just had to comment on this thread.  I see it all the time.  People commenting on the round column mill with no experience at all with them and shoot them down.  I ve worked on Bridgeports, and much bigger mills and have to s
ay the Jet jmd-18 pfn (made in Taiwan) does a pretty good job.  No problem taking a cut in 1018 with a depth of 1.5" and radial of .100" all climb milling.  With the head low and a good setup  it leaves a nice finish.  Came with the larger table of 9.25" x 32" with more travel and an extended column for a spindle to table distance of 26 inches along with power down feed(would not own a mill without it)  Never been close to running out of room.
Here are some thoughts.  At this price range you have to accept the fact your not going to fill all the boxes.
People put the round column down from what they have read.  I wanted the twelve speeds from 150-3000 vs. A six change box with a limited rpm of 1500.  Long term I much prefer pulleys for longevity amd the smoothness over gears that are not herringbone.  Much easier to service down the rd and leaves a nice finish.
So don t know if the negative stuff is valid.  Plan your tooling and not an issue.  Jeez even move off your part and return if you have to but really once understood it s not really an issue.
If you can think out of the box the round column can help get some work done you may not be able to do with a dovetail column.  Remember you can extend the travel by moving the head or clamp something off the table.
I don t know if I would take advice from people that have never had any experience with them,  and you will see that most people that have owned tham have been happy.
In this price range I feel I made the right choice. Doing work with it.    Very very happy.  My first Jet and will be buying another one of there machines down the rd.
Here is a boring bar I made up swinging the head and mounting off the table.


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## NortonDommi (Jun 21, 2019)

Try plugging RF-45 clone mill into Bing and see what you come up with.  For the price they are excellent value and millions have been converted to full CNC.  
  MarkM made some very valid points and consider if it is for a home workshop these mill/drills give a lot of bang for the buck and there is reams of information available on them plus numerous mods.  The work envelope is good and they don't break the bank & despite all the knockers there are millions of happy users. Fettling is to be encouraged but most are damn good as delivered.


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## shooter123456 (Jun 21, 2019)

NortonDommi said:


> millions have been converted to full CNC


I think you may be overestimating a little bit there.  RF-45 is on the larger and more expensive end of the small hobby machines.  I would bet that the number of people that convert their own machines is relatively low and decreases as size increases.  Ie for every RF-45 conversion, there are likely 10 G0704 size conversions and 50 X2 size conversions.  You can see evidence of that on cnczone when looking at the relative number of posts for machine specific forums.  RF-45: 1151 posts, X3, SX3, ETC: 3902 posts, taig mills and lathes: 8339 posts.  So while I am sure there are thousands of successfully converted RF-45s out there, millions is likely a stretch.


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## NortonDommi (Jun 21, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> I think you may be overestimating a little bit there.  RF-45 is on the larger and more expensive end of the small hobby machines.  I would bet that the number of people that convert their own machines is relatively low and decreases as size increases.  Ie for every RF-45 conversion, there are likely 10 G0704 size conversions and 50 X2 size conversions.  You can see evidence of that on cnczone when looking at the relative number of posts for machine specific forums.  RF-45: 1151 posts, X3, SX3, ETC: 3902 posts, taig mills and lathes: 8339 posts.  So while I am sure there are thousands of successfully converted RF-45s out there, millions is likely a stretch.


Yeah, point taken.  I hang my head in shame for over estimation and exaggeration.  Should have said thousands.  I stand humiliated and publicly corrected.


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## shooter123456 (Jun 21, 2019)

NortonDommi said:


> Yeah, point taken.  I hang my head in shame for over estimation and exaggeration.  Should have said thousands.  I stand humiliated and publicly corrected.


This is a friendly forum, I wasn't attacking you. Just trying to keep things in perspective.


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## NortonDommi (Jun 22, 2019)

I get that.  No offence taken and I am the one who should have kept things real.  There have been millions of these mill/drills sold  and many thousands if not tens of thousands have been modified and either wholly or partially mechanised.  I look at what people are doing around the world and what you see on this site  and sites such as CNCZone is just a tiny fraction of what is going on.  China and India have done the world a huge service by making decent machinery at a price point that means that some of us not so rich can  purchase new.  The volumes of machinery sales world-wide are increasing and not all can be put down to industry.  The RF-30 came onto the market when?  40 years ago? There are factories pumping out smaller mill/drills by the hundreds every day.  The 'maker' community is huge and growing all the time.  I will stand by millions sold of the smaller verticle mill/drill though simply because of the numbers produced and the fact that they continue to sell well.
  Upshot is that machinery being bought means people are using it to make something. I will endeavor to to fact check before posting in future or at the least curb my imagination.


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## Nyala (Jun 22, 2019)

I'm not an expert on this but rather very, very much a newbie, having bought a mill/drill only last December at 70+ years old.  I bought a PM-25, the smallest bench top mill that Precision Matthews sells.  Sure I would have liked a Bridgeport but in my circumstances that would have been overkill.  

I bought the PM-25 for a number of reasons;

It was light weight (275 lbs), meaning I could get it into my basement workshop without difficulty - a serious concern at my age.
It was powered by 120V and my workshop would have to be re-wired to accommodate a Bridgeport.
It was small and took up less space in a shop already overcrowded.
My projects are not large.  The largest thus far is 4" long and don't expect things to get beyond 12".

I have been very happy with the machine thus far.  Although I have questioned it's accuracy sometimes, it is always within a few thousandths and close enough for what I do.  I just need to take my time and use small cuts.  My first projects were to modify the machine to make it more user friendly.

My father was a lifelong machinist and I inherited many, many, many tools of his tools, mostly all Starrett or Brown& Sharpe.  I fill in any gaps with Chinese stuff, not the best but, again, good enough for what I do.  I usually can't tell if I'm using a Starrett tool or a Chinese tool unless I read the name on it. 

I recently wanted to add a QCTP to my South Bend Model C 9x20 lathe, a small lathe built around 1940.  I bought a Bostar from CDCO Machinery for a little over $100.  Would an Aloris have been nice?  Yes, but again overkill for my lathe, experience and projects.  However, this addition has made my life easier and I am now getting better accuracy than with the lantern style tool holder.

So I know that the Chinese stuff gets a bad knock most of the time and it is usually well deserved, but not always.  For some of us, it's been exactly what we needed and were looking for. I've been thinking of replacing my lathe and a PM-1127 just might fill the bill.  It's cheaper than most used lathes in this area and those used ones that are a lower price look pretty worn out and would require a workshop re-wire.  Another Chinese machine just might be in my future.

If you are thinking of a Chinese machine and/or tooling, do your homework first and you might be surprised at what you can find.


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 22, 2019)

I have a 1986 Central Machinery mill/drill head assembly on a 1950 round column Bridgeport base. The mill drill head replaced a trashed m-head, it gave me 12 speeds and a R8 spindle. I’ve found the head assembly very capable, well made and durable. Originally it was a temporary stop gap measure until I found a better head, but its so solid and capable, I never looked further.


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## RYAN S (Jun 23, 2019)

Buffalo21 said:


> I have a 1986 Central Machinery mill/drill head assembly on a 1950 round column Bridgeport base. The mill drill head replaced a trashed m-head, it gave me 12 speeds and a R8 spindle. I’ve found the head assembly very capable, well made and durable. Originally it was a temporary stop gap measure until I found a better head, but its so solid and capable, I never looked further.


If you could, it would be great to see a picture of your setup!


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## kb58 (Jun 23, 2019)

BaronJ said:


> .... These machines are either all good or all bad depending upon who you talk to...


That aren't the people to talk to, then.

Limitations:
Less rigidity, meaning you can't take big cuts. Whether this is a problem depends on you.
As stated, round-column units lose calibration when moved. Whether this is a problem depends on you.
Will "typically" be less reliable, but how much so depends upon how much you use it, and for what.
Parts availability may be an issue, which is related to how much it's used, which is related what you need to do.
They're small. Height becomes a big limiting factor once a cutter/drill bit, holder, and vice are added, leaving very little room for the actual part. Whether this is a problem depends on you.

Pluses:
Smaller than domestic iron, meaning it's an easier fit into a typical garage
Cheaper
Lighter, so easier to move around.

A Chinese square-column knee mill gets around most of the problems, but they tend to be a bit bigger than "small."

That about covers it, and as you can see, YOU are the biggest component in this equation.


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 24, 2019)

RYAN S said:


> If you could, it would be great to see a picture of your setup!


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## markba633csi (Jun 24, 2019)

Buffalo: Is that the 32" table?
Also, how did you splice that head on?  Hard to see from the pic
Mark


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 24, 2019)

The mill has a 8” x 32” table, I bought the mill for $400, about 12 years ago, the knee and table assembly, are tight and smooth, the previous owner cracked the m-head casing, replacing the spindle bearings, I then decided to adapt the mill/drill head. The mill could within about 30 minutes, be reverted to either a m or j-head, if a good head was found. It works so well, I’ve felt no urgent need to do so.

I later added power feeds, a one-shot oiling system and a EOC 25 collect system

Attached is the photo of the head joint assembly


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## jdedmon91 (Jun 24, 2019)

That is an awesome conversion. Well done


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## darkzero (Jun 25, 2019)

Buffalo21 said:


> View attachment 297152



Wow, you must be suuuuper tall!!! 
I wouldn't be able to see anything inside the drawers of the 3 red tool chests on top let alone even reach them.


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 25, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Wow, you must be suuuuper tall!!!
> I wouldn't be able to see anything inside the drawers of the 3 red tool chests on top let alone even reach them.



Floor space is at a extreme premium, I have 7 bottom boxes, 7 side boxes, 1 top box, 27 middle boxes and a sturdy step ladder


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## pontiac428 (Jun 25, 2019)

It's like a library room in a Victorian mansion, except for tools.  You've gotta mount that ladder on rails so you can slide it down the rows of toolboxes!


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## bob308 (Jun 25, 2019)

all mill-drills I have seen are made off  shore. so I would buy a knee mill.


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## bob308 (Jun 25, 2019)

just checked central machinery has a knee mill about the size of a 8520 .. for about the price of a mill drill that is made off shore any way like all mill drills are


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