# Looking For A Small Lathe And Vertical Mill



## Bill Rosselot (Oct 15, 2015)

Looking for a small lathe and vertical mill.  Just starting out.


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## wrmiller (Oct 15, 2015)

It would help if you told us what you'd like to do with these so people can offer more appropriate suggestions other than "the biggest you can afford".


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm looking for at least a 12" swing with 36" between centers.  And a mill something similar to 9" x 36" Bridgeport or something I can put at least a 2" Shell mill in.  I'm looking to rebuild a couple of hot rods and build a couple of motorcycles, and just want it them for building shafts, turning pins, normal stuff around the farm.


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 15, 2015)

Looking to spend around 3500 to 4000 for both with some tooling if possible.


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## wrmiller (Oct 15, 2015)

You might be able to find a used 13" SB and baby BP for that, but it will likely take some time and patience. Not sure you'll fit much tooling into that total price range, but there are others here more experienced in buying/researching used machines who will likely chime in. Hope you find something.


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 15, 2015)

Thanks
I have found several across the country.  I live in Ohio and would travel a far distance for the right deal.  I have been looking a several SB lathes and a couple of BP mills.  I have found some that can buy both for around 4500 which is a good price but not sure what kind of shape they are in and would have to travel out to actually look at them, and I'm not real sure what to look for and what would be acceptable wear.  I grew up in my Fathers shop which he had a couple of SB's and 2 BP's and one big Clausing.  I'm fairly verse in the machines just a little rusty it has been 20 years since I have ran on for any length of time.  I thought I would ask some of you guys that have been around this for awhile.  Just a lot of Chinese junk out there now.


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## wrmiller (Oct 15, 2015)

Just a caution Bill, but we have a bunch of people here doing some pretty good stuff on "Chinese junk" (see my avatar), and every other type of machine imaginable, but we don't put down anyone's choice in machines here. Everyone's welcome.


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## Riaan (Oct 15, 2015)

I find myself in the same boat in that I'm starting out and am tempted by the small imports. However, in my case I have clear ideas of the things I want to fabricate and having been down the road of buying twice because I bought cheap once, I am wary of committing cash to any deal. What scares me about the imports is the potential lack of spares and support when the brown hits the round. On the other hand, finding spares for old iron isn't necessarily easier. At least when you buy a new import you have some sort of warranty from the local distributor.

I'll be honest, I would buy a small chinese mill and/or lathe in a heartbeat *IF* I already knew what I was doing and already had the equipment to correct any manufacturing defects, ie surface plate, straight edge, primary mill and lathe. I think it might be a fun little project turning a small chinese import into a tight and precise little machine. I have no doubt it can be done but it takes skill, time and equipment which could otherwise be spent making stuff the machine is intended for in the first place. 

On the other hand, some guys get lucky and their cheapies turn out pretty good straight from the crate.


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## wrmiller (Oct 15, 2015)

That's the big IF in my opinion: If a person already knows their way around a machine, then either scenario (new import vs. used US) is acceptable to that person because they know they can 'fix it'. Well, short of having a completely clapped out machine of any parentage... I read a thread on here somewhere where a guy actually scraped in his son's little 7x import lathe! Probably works pretty darn well now. 

But if someone is a complete novice at this stuff, then you are swimming in deep water no matter which way you go. There is no rule anywhere that says a used machine from some factory is any tighter or more accurate than a new import. Only two machines I've owned that didn't require 'tuning' to get them accurate: My little South Bend 8k (China made) and my PM1340GT (Taiwan made). I've had to tweak everything else I've owned to get it acceptable to me. But then sometimes that's half the fun to some folks. Take the guys here that spend months or more rebuilding a 60+ year old machine and love not only the process but the end result. 

If you can find someone who will go shopping with you that knows machines that can help a lot when looking at the used stuff. As for spares, Grizzly and Precision Machine (PM) are about the best for this in the import arena according to most folks here. For older, US stuff you can sometimes find NOS parts or use Ebay if the company is no longer in business. I recently passed up buying a Lagun FT2 after I found how how expensive the replacement parts are for that Spanish import. Really good commercial grade machine, but man, they're really proud of those things when it comes to spare parts...


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## rafe (Oct 15, 2015)

You should be able to find that if you are patient! Probably within a 20 mile radius ....patience is the key though..... It's a strange market if you don't know what you are looking at though , you can overpay for junk and find great machines priced way below their value. Sometimes those oil encrusted users are a diamond in the rough and the pristine ones are good looking crap. Learn as much as you can about what it takes to be a good machine .....I bought an old SB and it will do everything I need it to , and I won't outgrow it's capabilities. Same with a BP you can find them fairly cheap if you don't mine some overdue maintenance and repairs ...(This is an analogy and not meant to offend).I don't care what you ride ,and I'm glad you do .... I don't care to ride a Chang lin pho , rather have a H-D .....same goes for the machining ...they will all get you from point a to point b .... preference is a good thing....Hey I have old  Triumphs too, so I'm not anti-import!.....


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 15, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> Just a caution Bill, but we have a bunch of people here doing some pretty good stuff on "Chinese junk" (see my avatar), and every other type of machine imaginable, but we don't put down anyone's choice in machines here. Everyone's welcome.


Did not mean to offend anyone but I have looked at several lathes that were copies and they were not very good but yet the price was high.


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 15, 2015)

Riaan said:


> I find myself in the same boat in that I'm starting out and am tempted by the small imports. However, in my case I have clear ideas of the things I want to fabricate and having been down the road of buying twice because I bought cheap once, I am wary of committing cash to any deal. What scares me about the imports is the potential lack of spares and support when the brown hits the round. On the other hand, finding spares for old iron isn't necessarily easier. At least when you buy a new import you have some sort of warranty from the local distributor.
> 
> I'll be honest, I would buy a small chinese mill and/or lathe in a heartbeat *IF* I already knew what I was doing and already had the equipment to correct any manufacturing defects, ie surface plate, straight edge, primary mill and lathe. I think it might be a fun little project turning a small chinese import into a tight and precise little machine. I have no doubt it can be done but it takes skill, time and equipment which could otherwise be spent making stuff the machine is intended for in the first place.
> 
> On the other hand, some guys get lucky and their cheapies turn out pretty good straight from the crate.


I agree I have the same feeling about the imports, My shop has alot of them, but if I'm going to pay 4500 or more for a machine I don't want to have to get on Youtube and find all the modifications you have to do to the machine to make it work.


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 15, 2015)

rafe said:


> You should be able to find that if you are patient! Probably within a 20 mile radius ....patience is the key though..... It's a strange market if you don't know what you are looking at though , you can overpay for junk and find great machines priced way below their value. Sometimes those oil encrusted users are a diamond in the rough and the pristine ones are good looking crap. Learn as much as you can about what it takes to be a good machine .....I bought an old SB and it will do everything I need it to , and I won't outgrow it's capabilities. Same with a BP you can find them fairly cheap if you don't mine some overdue maintenance and repairs ...(This is an analogy and not meant to offend).I don't care what you ride ,and I'm glad you do .... I don't care to ride a Chang lin pho , rather have a H-D .....same goes for the machining ...they will all get you from point a to point b .... preference is a good thing....Hey I have old  Triumphs too, so I'm not anti-import!.....


You are right I'm going to look at a lathe this weekend and I'm taking a friend of mine that is a machinist at one of casting plants here local.  But he has never ran a small machine but like I said they all work about the same.  I just don't want to buy on that has a DuPont overhaul on it.  And your right as long as your riding it doesn't matter what you ride and it fits here also


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## wrmiller (Oct 15, 2015)

Bill Rosselot said:


> Did not mean to offend anyone but I have looked at several lathes that were copies and they were not very good but yet the price was high.



No offense taken. Just a caution. 

I've see some crazy prices for both import and US on Ebay. Sometimes I'm like 'are you kidding me?'


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## planeflyer21 (Oct 17, 2015)

Bill Rosselot said:


> You are right I'm going to look at a lathe this weekend and I'm taking a friend of mine that is a machinist at one of casting plants here local.  But he has never ran a small machine but like I said they all work about the same.  I just don't want to buy on that has a DuPont overhaul on it.  And your right as long as your riding it doesn't matter what you ride and it fits here also



A guy I worked in a CNC shop with came over to check out my Smithy Granite when I first got it.  He was shocked at the quality, compared to the first 3-in-1 machines he had seen and said "It's actually more substantial than I thought it would be."  Then when I showed him a couple of things I'd made to learn the particulars of the machine, he decided he wanted to start shopping imports for his home shop.  He was particularly impressed with a drill-bit extension I'd made.

With that machine long gone, I've been on a "If I stumble on a good deal" shopping plan for a couple of years now and have formed a few ideas on what is available.

IMO most of the "American iron" is very much like the "classic truck".  You may get that '65 Dodge Power Wagon 4x4 that currently drives but several things need replacing.  Parts are out there but are harder and harder to find, and more and more expensive.  The Toyota Tundra assembled in Texas may be the wiser choice, if you need something to use and not rebuild.

With imported machine tools, many are identical and parts swap.  The most important feature (again IMO) is retailer support.  Companies like Grizzly and Quality Machine Tools (Precision Matthews) have a reputation of great customer service.  Others do not.

Hope this helps.


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## Bill Gruby (Oct 17, 2015)

Please don't refer to some machinery as "Chinese Junk"

 This link shows what can be done with it.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/home-grown-cutter-grinder.19384/

 "Billy G"


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## Wreck™Wreck (Oct 17, 2015)

I spend my days running either a Tos Trencin 24 X 100 lathe made in Slovokia or a Romi lathe with a Bridgeport control made in Brazil, both excellent imported machines.
Imported does not automatically mean "bad". A majority of the worlds machine tools are made in Japan, can you say Fanuc?

That said, buying a machine at the lowest possible price will surely end in tears.


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## Bill Gruby (Oct 17, 2015)

"Surely end in tears"--- Hmmm- not always true either. I only paid 50 bucks for my Asian  9 X 20 and that is  the lathe I used to build the Cutter Grinder. Just my opinion in this case but you can't always judge the book by the cover.

 This being said comes the challenge involved. I totally rebuilt mine to get it to run correctly. I see the cheaper lathe as a learning machine. As you learn you tighten it up and soon you will find a machine that can run with the best of the pack. Again, this is my opinion.

"Billy G"


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## Wreck™Wreck (Oct 17, 2015)

Bill Gruby said:


> "Surely end in tears"--- Hmmm- not always true either. I only paid 50 bucks for my Asian  9 X 20 and that is  the lathe I used to build the Cutter Grinder. Just my opinion in this case but you can't always judge the book by the cover.
> 
> "Billy G"


New machines Billy
 I bought a used Clausing lathe for $800.00 in 1990, don't know the model number because I have no interest in such minutiae. After several hundreds of dollars and many hours of my time, it served well for the next 20 years and made a great deal of money for me. I do not disparage nor discourage any hobbyist working within a budget yet not everyone has the skill or patience to work up from the bottom beginning with poorly made tools.


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## Bill Gruby (Oct 17, 2015)

Agreed 110%

 "Billy G"


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## middle.road (Oct 17, 2015)

There's been some really good auctions in the last six months up in Ohio.
Get on some mailing lists and see what comes up.
This outfit is based up in Ohio by you. They've had some nice ones lately: http://www.thompsonauctioneers.com/


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 19, 2015)

I agree with most of you guys,  I do own several wood working machines from Grizzly and they are a great company.  I had a small Grizzly engine lathe for a short time several years ago and the fit and finish was not what I have on the other tools, but it could have been just a bad day at the factory.  And yes I don't want to by a 1940's  era machine that I have to rebuild just to start using it.  And being on a budget is just good business.  I'm a hobbist that just want to get the best bang for his buck.  It really does not matter if it is an import or not as long as I can find something that is as accurate as possible and does not break the bank, and take up all the room in my shop.  Its only 20 x 20.  That is why I looked at the Smithy machines first, and I thought the 1340 was going to be the machine but another site did not give it a good review or not I even have talked to people that own and use them and they have told me they are good but you have to work around the problems.  I'm still leaning that way but I'm looking at all my options.


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## wrmiller (Oct 19, 2015)

Hey Bill,

Many guys here have bought the Griz G4003G (it was on my radar for a while) and the reviews have been pretty good in that only minor tuning, if any, was all that was needed to get up and running. But...it takes a big chunk out of your budget. And the guys here are 'very' helpful in blowing one's budget. They blew mine to heck and gone, twice. The downside was it took more money and time (to get the money), but now I have machines that are more capable than I am. And I've got it all sandwiched into the 15'x20' portion of my garage.

Welcome to the hobby.


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## samthedog (Oct 20, 2015)

You need to be clear on whether you want to buy and use, or buy, fix then use. If it's the latter, then there is plenty around. Me personally, I prefer to use my time saving cash, then spending extra to get something that works.

When I bought my lathe, I paid about 4k for it. It was the right combination of features, mass and condition. This was my second lathe so I was pretty sure about what I wanted.

Having helped alot of people buy lathes and mills I would recommend saving more money than you intend to spend. In many cases the jump in quality and equipment for a modest increase in price is huge.

Also, become best buds with a machinist or a seasoned hobbyist who can accompany you. There are a huge number of lathes that fit the size you specified so knowing which features you want in a lathe will help. The same also holds true for the mill.

Paul.


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 20, 2015)

samthedog said:


> You need to be clear on whether you want to buy and use, or buy, fix then use. If it's the latter, then there is plenty around. Me personally, I prefer to use my time saving cash, then spending extra to get something that works.
> 
> When I bought my lathe, I paid about 4k for it. It was the right combination of features, mass and condition. This was my second lathe so I was pretty sure about what I wanted.
> 
> ...


Paul
You are right and I was thinking the same thing.  I have began that process now.  I would like to buy a newer working lathe and mill.  So I will have to put some more funds together and it will take me a little longer but I'm sure I will find a good deal.
Thanks
For the advice very sound.

Bill


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## Bill Rosselot (Oct 20, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey Bill,
> 
> Many guys here have bought the Griz G4003G (it was on my radar for a while) and the reviews have been pretty good in that only minor tuning, if any, was all that was needed to get up and running. But...it takes a big chunk out of your budget. And the guys here are 'very' helpful in blowing one's budget. They blew mine to heck and gone, twice. The downside was it took more money and time (to get the money), but now I have machines that are more capable than I am. And I've got it all sandwiched into the 15'x20' portion of my garage.
> 
> Welcome to the hobby.


Thanks  I was also looking at that Grizzly machine, but now I'm in that process of time to getting more monies.  
I have to be patient and a deal will come along and if not I will have the money to make it happen in the next few months.  Need to work on the shop and get things ready.

Thanks
Bill


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## samthedog (Oct 20, 2015)

Bill Rosselot said:


> Paul
> You are right and I was thinking the same thing.  I have began that process now.  I would like to buy a newer working lathe and mill.  So I will have to put some more funds together and it will take me a little longer but I'm sure I will find a good deal.
> Thanks
> For the advice very sound.
> ...



You won't regret it Bill. The only machine purchases I have regretted were those where I spent what I had initially planned to spend and therefore passed on some killer deals that only cost a fraction more.

In the meantime, research like mad and get to know exactly what machines will scratch your itch. I have always considered this to be a big part of the fun and it made it that much better when you roll your dream machine(s) into the workshop.

Paul.


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