# What do forums do for you ?



## joebiplane (Sep 26, 2011)

I joined this forum shortly after it started.. I was getting into hobby machining and I had visited several other machining sites.

I was not able to get what I was looking for...for many reasons..but it is evident that professional machinists prefer, and probably require the durability, accuracccy and dependebility of classic , quality USA Hardware.

i simply cannot afford the luxury of floorspace that equiptment requires, and i cannot rebuild a bridgeport mill if i had the space and money. ( although i am restoring a 1945 Logan 820

I am a hobbiest !!!  plain and simple.. My new Grizzly SX3 Mill  does everything I require, fits on my work bench next to my Emco Compact 8 lathe that I have owned for over 25 years . and I am very happy with them both.

I needed some help and information and used this site as my main Machining site ( It has since become virtually my only one now)... 

I don't want advertising and I strongly value the comradarie this site offers, so I donated $15.00 and I did it gladly.  If none of you want to donate It won't bother me one bit...I did what I wanted to do and so should you.  I would just not like to see advertising on the site. it becomes a cancer and will destroy the site IMHO.....

I am retired and on a fixed income and i don't get a big enough fix each month   But in my younger days i would have paid $15.00 to watc monkees F........make ......pick their .......  I sort of forgot what they did .. but I would have paid to watch 

This is a great site for hobbiest machine wreckers...  I cannot offer wisdom to beginners because I am one... But i can spare a few bucks to help insure it's continuation

just my .02  ;0
joe


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## Tony Wells (Sep 26, 2011)

Joe,
 I'd like to respond to your comment about American machines. You are RONG! If you go into the largest machine shops, you will actually see very little of it. In fact, the most modern shops have a majority of imported machines. Reasoning is simple: There are very few domestic machine tool makers these days. There are good, and there are not so good imports. I assume you are referring to hobbyists and their loyalty to the domestic iron. Professionals and businessmen do whatever it takes to survive in this industry, and try to make a little profit while they're at it. That means spending money carefully on machinery. Durability? Sure you can find machines that are built light, for light duty. I consider Haas in that class. Easy to buy, very fast and accurate, but not really for big heavy work. They wear out too quickly. You can sure pay one off before it dies though. And that's the bottom line. There are upper end imports, and they command upper end pricing, but they deliver upper end performance and longevity. If you know you will have the work for the long term, buy the upper end import and you'll be fine.

On the hobby front, I think there has been undue influence by (I hope to cause no offense here) older, retired machinists who lived and died by the American machine. In the old days, nearly all import machines were junk. Now you can get what you pay for. Either way. Durability, accuracy, and dependability are directly proportional to what you pay. Need a million dollar 7 axes machining center? Go find one, and get to work. That one will last a long time. 

Also, I would point out that machine abuse takes a nearly equal toll on all machines. It may be true that if someone buys a high end domestic machine he will baby it....and of course it will last longer than the hack that buys el cheapo and beats it to death. Whether a rebuild is practical, or even possible may be determined by the origin of the machine. Might get parts, might not. Lots of factors, and origin is only one.

Incidentally, thank you for the donation. It will be properly used, I'm sure. 

And yes, I am a professional machinist, and proud of it. It really is more about the man than the machine. The saying "It is a poor craftsman who blames his bad work on his tools" comes to mind. 

And your post was worth more than $0.02, btw.


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## joebiplane (Sep 26, 2011)

thanks Tony,
my donation was my way of saying thanks! to those who have given me help and advice ofer the past year ::thumbzup::
joe


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## pdentrem (Sep 26, 2011)

Tony, you hit the nail right on the head. The American machines that we have in the shop are retreads. The only new machine is a Haas minimill. Everything else has had many careers before coming into our place. A couple of the rolling mills were new before WW2. 
Machines cost $$$ and profit margins are getting smaller all the time. 

Between the old, imported and custom machines that we use, we do succeed in making very good quality products for our customers.


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## HMF (Sep 26, 2011)

I want to answer your subject question, and I apologize to anyone who feels this is "chit chat," but I like chit-chat, and it is part of what I come to forums for.

40 years ago, when I was a kid, New York City had a fair amount of manufacturing. There was little outsourcing. We had machine shops and all sorts of factories, many in Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island. My old man owned a factory in Brooklyn, and on the same block were others. Around the block was a machine shop. There were industrial hardware stores, where a kid could marvel at all the tools and devices. On the next block was a toy company, I think it was Ideal Toy. They made dolls of all types, stuffed Teddie Bears, etc. There was a furniture factory. The hum of machines filled the air during a work day. Workers stood outside the factory smoking cigarettes on a break. There was a pickle factory, Broch and Guggenheimer (B&G), Carbona Cleaning Fluids- all sorts of things were made in NYC. You could meet people who worked in these shops and factories and shoot the breeze.

Then, one by one, these shops closed. Labor was expensive, and the City charged a fortune to operate in, and drove business out. The work went to shops down south, to places with cheap American labor. Years later, the craze was to produce in Mexico. Swingline Staples moved out of Queens to Mexico. Now they all produce in China and India. Industry followed cheap labor. There are few if any factories and no machine shops anymore to speak of. I have no one to mentor me. The only mentors are online, guys who are willing to help idiots like me keep from killing themselves. 

When I picked this hobby, I had lots of questions to ask. I owned a drill press for 30 years, but no lathe, no mill. I searched for a forum. The one that popped up right away was PM. Being a naive knucklehead, I went to the South Bend forum and started asking questions. I didn't understand why that would aggravate people, of course, though I now do. Forums can be a great source of learning. Sure, I can read a book, but sometimes things get lost in text. If you can ask a specific question, and maybe see a photo of someone doing it, that works much better for me. It takes a while for things that are foreign to me to sink in. I need people to be patient with me when I ask stupid questions, or the same question a few times. Some people are patient, some aren't. I am also convinced that some people come to these forums because they are unhappy in their lives and like to pick on others. Some just like to argue a point to death.

All I wanted to do was learn how to do things with machines. That is what forums do for me. On the ones I am banned on, I just read and research, and try to absorb. Probably best that I can't post because the patience level is low on some of them and they only want to kibbutz (NYC for talk) with other regulars or people they accept as knowledgeable.

I hope I answered your question without blabbering on too much,


Nelson


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## Tony Wells (Sep 26, 2011)

No complaint from me, Nelson. To me, the chit chat is the main thing. I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but I don't often have questions. I do what I do, things that I know how to do. Maybe I can help someone else, and if so, great. So to banter conversation on a forum is all part of the forum fun for me.

In Northeast Texas, there has been much industry in the past, and even though we have lost a few big companies (Kelly-Springfield Tires, owned by Goodyear, for one) we still have some heavy industry, such as Marathon LeTourneau, now owned by Joy Global (builds jackup oil rigs for offshore), we have a Trane and a Carrier plant here. We have Texas Eastman, Delek Refineries....and all the support businesses these feed. The oilfield is fickle, but it's kept us all busy between the downturns, that is. Lone Star Steel....the list is impressive. BUT......

Many small shops are going out. The demand is for a different product, in ways that the little guy can't accommodate. The very first "real" machine shop job I had was McEvoy Oilfield Products. We built pieces for the TransAlaskan Pipeline. It was bought and sold a few times, then poof....shut down. We had two large outfits that build for refineries all over the world. Biggest one was Howe-Baker Engineers. It sold to CBI, Chicago Bridge and Iron. They still do the same work, but there's not that many new refineries being built. They need to be, because the old designs don't do well with the oil that is available now. All the easy oil is gone.

But I ramble.....I love the work, and plan to continue as long as I can, and not become a curmudgeon. Or much of one, anyway.


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## 4GSR (Sep 27, 2011)

Tony,

You know the Murskies that own MP Industries there in Tyler? Their located back behind CBI's yard.

Ken

Nelson,

I enjoy reading posts that are on your site. More in line with the "kids" I like to play with. I learned the machine trade way back starting at 10 years old. That's been over 40 years ago. My Dad was a journyman machinists/machinery repairman. He pretty much taught me and my two brothers the trade. I've rebuilt/ reconditioned several machines over the years, too. In my early twenties I leaned toward mechanical engineering working for a oilfield manufacturing firm down here in South Texas. I've changed employers several times over the years, but still doing the same type of work. I'm not a CNC machinists, but I can pretty much tell you what machine to put that part on to make! I don't care to compete with other machinists out there, because many are much better than me! But I can stand my ground on what I know.
I like to comment on what others have to say, make suggestions, and give atta boys at times.
But most of the time, I just like to listen to what others have to offer and say.
Ken


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## Tony Wells (Sep 27, 2011)

I don't know them personally, but I am familiar with the company a bit. I haven't thought about them for years, and didn't know they had moved from over by the fairgrounds. Might have been a long time.

That CBI facility is shuttered and for sale. It's probably 15 acres or so. Some of my school buddies went to work there when they graduated. I think it was partly because that's where the Metal Trades instructor went after he quit teaching. CBI has 3 properties here, at last check. I don't know about the pipe fab shop, but the one where the designing is done still seems busy.

Murskies friends of yours?


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## pdentrem (Sep 28, 2011)

The CBI yard here in town was abandoned many years ago. They only have an office now in Niagara Falls.


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## MarkBall2 (Sep 29, 2011)

"what do forums do for you?"

Well, I get ideas on new projects, get help with a set-up, show off a set-up or solution to a problem. I get to brag, get teased, get to laugh a bit & help a feller when they are feeling down.

I get a lot out of forums. I was given a Craftsman 12x36 lathe & an Enco round column mill. Tooling I've purchased as it was needed. Lost some hair thinking about solutions & have figured how to solve a few.

Forums have been good to me.


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## HMF (Sep 30, 2011)

One thing that we discussed when we first began the forum was the fact that a forum should be like a virtual bar where a crew of people get together to shoot the breeze about machine topics, and other things. Of course, wanting desperately to learn about machining, I was focused on information mainly. But there has to be a social component or no one will feel drawn to it. I always like to see people becoming friends from the forum, because it means that the social component is there. It makes me feel good to help bring people together on here. It's like a virtual machinist club fir those who cannot join a machinist club.

Nelson


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## flutedchamber (Sep 30, 2011)

I "belong" to a number of machinist forums. Some are very good and others not so much. I guess everyone is looking to get something different out of their visits and likewise give something different in return.

I've not been a member here very long but have found everyone to be helpful and friendly. There doesn't seem to be a "core group" of demigods that can do or say no wrong. There is one site in particular that I feel as tho I must genuflect each time I sign on. That is the main reason why I do not frequent some of the other sites very much. No one is always right OR wrong, and contrary to what some think..there is no such thing as a stupid question.

Learn from one another and enjoy yourself. We all come from the far corners of the world and most all have different backgrounds. Different eyes and minds see a different solution to a perplexing problem. It doesn't get better than that. ;0


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## Tony Wells (Sep 30, 2011)

FC, one of the objectives here has been to be a different kind of forum, where exactly what you mention doesn't happen. You are exactly right, Nobody is always right, now if we could just find him and get him to join.....

Anyway, I'm glad you recognize the difference, and hope you continue to contribute to that difference. It's all up to the member themselves to make this stay like it is now, different, and friendly.


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## HMF (Sep 30, 2011)

Fluted,

Thank you for your kind comments. As Tony said, that is EXACTLY what we aimed for when we started.

Please tell your friends- that is the only way we will expand. Other forums hoarde their members selfishly, and don't want them knowing about us.
Your buddies will probably like it here.

Nelson


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## joebiplane (Oct 1, 2011)

I agree Completly !


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## joesmith (Oct 1, 2011)

I'm in several machine specific forums. I bought my first Unimat at age 27 and still have 2 unimats. I use them occasionally. I learned machining from the Unimat handbook and later the Atlas and SB handbooks.

I have never been able to work with a professional machinest. The forums have been very helpful as a learning tool. I have accumulated a lot of tooling and metals over that past 47 years.

On many of the forums I am reluctant to ask questions because of the guys who like to pick at the question to feed their egos. I get a lot of ideas reading about what others have done. Occasionally I feel qualified to answer someone's question.

Over the years I have built an extensive database of projects for reference.

Joe
Joe


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## joebiplane (Oct 1, 2011)

that's what is nice about this forum... no " holyier than thou' attitudes' not that I've seen, at least
joebiplane


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## HMF (Oct 1, 2011)

> author=joebiplane (south jersey) link=topic=3716.msg27923#msg27923 date=1317508130
> that's what is nice about this forum... no " holyier than thou' attitudes' not that I've seen, at least
> joebiplane



Well, it's easy... in my case, I stink at this, and the attitudes all flow from the top in my view.
People who want to preach go where there are people who will listen.

Nelson


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## ScrapMetal (Oct 1, 2011)

> author=flutedchamber link=topic=3716.msg27664#msg27664 date=1317367150... There doesn't seem to be a "core group" of demigods that can do or say no wrong. ...



Dang, I was going to use that in my profile "core group demigod".  Always right? Heck, I would settle for "right once in a while". ::thumbzup::

I do like the atmosphere on this forum. I belong to a couple different "machining" forums but usually don't post on the other ones as I have a low tolerance for "suffering online a$$holes and blowhards".

-Ron


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