# (Not So) Hobby Machinist



## ChandlerJPerry (Sep 11, 2020)

Hey everyone, just musing a little bit right now and I thought there are probably some individuals on this forum that would be able to chime in. I know this is the *hobby* machinist forum, but I don't find the more professional cousin of this forum to be particularly friendly. Some background: I spent a little over two and a half years working for an aerospace machine shop in their sheet metal department before being laid off in July due to coronavirus related slowdowns. The job wasn't half bad, however I didn't find it to be the type of place that was interested in creating what I would consider to be true machinists, more parts pushers that could do one step of a process to make a good part. The good of it was that it ignited my interest in machining, I was usually using one of the few bridgeports (total CNC, production oriented shop, no repair/service work to necessitate manual machines) in the shop for personal projects after hours, and it has led to me contracting the sickness and purchasing a lathe and mill . I also do know how to weld (Took welding in school and worked at it professionally for a short time) but am lacking a machine at the moment, 120v only power in my garage has limited my options there and made me hesitant to purchase anything for fear that I will be disappointed by its performance. Some may have seen my recent purchase of an Enco branded RF-30, as well as an Atlas QC54 that I'm in the process of restoring.

Anyway, like many other people I do have the pipe dream of one day running my own operation and getting to have a one man band shop to pay the bills. I've found a new job in a completely different field, but ultimately don't feel a ton of passion for the work, which has really set my mind turning about my occupation. Coming from my recent background I'm familiar with the dizzying array of equipment a major commercial shop would have, which I'm approximately only 2.743 million miles away from comparing to with my two manual machines and decent set of mechanic's tools in a 10x20 garage . However that also means that my experience is rooted in the large scale commercial world, not that of the small job shop world, which I am largely unfamiliar with. Is there any work to be had for such humble beginnings with only manual machines? Or am I dreaming until I increase my dragon's hoard of equipment and space available? I'm primarily interested in repair/service work, and short runs/one offs. I know long run production is where the money is, but frankly having to do the same part 1000 times over makes me feel like my eyes are going to bleed. Prior to my unemployment I was occasionally getting small side jobs every so often such as minor modifications to turbocharger housings or brake calipers, etc. $100 here, $100 there type jobs that I would complete at my previous employer, usually with pretty basic tools. I will definitely be resuming that type of activity once I get my machines set up, and who knows, it could turn into a somewhat more steady customer base over time. But are there any markets or businesses that could be untapped that I'm not thinking of? Or maybe some of the users of this forum have experience trying to grow this kind of business from ground zero. To me right now, it is a purely a hobby and not a livelihood, but sometimes I can't help but daydream about it becoming something more.


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## mmcmdl (Sep 11, 2020)

You didn't work for Textron out there did ya ?


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## mmcmdl (Sep 11, 2020)

Breakdown jobs and protoype work is what I did . There is no money in production as it is a very competetive market . When you have to scrap your chips to make ends meat , it isnt worth it .


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## ChandlerJPerry (Sep 11, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> You didn't work for Textron out there did ya ?


No, however I will name names and say it was a shop by the name of JD Machine. I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say that . They're a relatively large local to Utah employer with some pretty big name customers in the aerospace and medical industry.


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## macardoso (Sep 11, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> I know this is the *hobby* machinist forum, but I don't find the more professional cousin of this forum to be particularly friendly.



Welcome to the club


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## Martin W (Sep 11, 2020)

As a business owner myself, I think it would be a tough go. 
Cheers
Martin


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## mmcmdl (Sep 11, 2020)

JD reminds me of where I served my apprenticeship . A very large family operated job shop .


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## ChandlerJPerry (Sep 11, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> JD reminds me of where I served my apprenticeship . A very large family operated job shop .


Without going into too many details, I unfortunately didn't have quite that experience. Family owned, yes. But the primary focus of the shop was long run production/repeat contracts, not job work. That being what it is, I didn't find there to be a lot of opportunity to branch out and learn new skills. I don't intend to drag anyone's name through the mud because the workmanship is high quality and the people at JD care greatly about what they do, however I felt that the management style trended more towards the corporate, meaning every employee was to fit in their respective box and not stray further than the company deemed necessary. I do not consider myself an expert machinist by any means, but frequently felt that my skills and interest  in the work were somewhat wasted by the lack of lateral movement within the company.


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## mmcmdl (Sep 11, 2020)

If you do start up a small side place , you keep 3 things in mind . 

Quality 
Price 
Delivery time . 

You need 2 out of 3 to survive .


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## mmcmdl (Sep 11, 2020)

Middlestadt was a huge job shop . Nasa , Electric Boat , Dupont , very large government contracts including the nuclear subs , tanks , etc . Family owned and finally family run into the ground . The back breaker was when the sub contracts went nuclear . We were asked if we wanted to rebid the jobs because they went nuclear , and they did not . The weld testing took 1000s of hours alone . They got rid of their smaller customers while doing the big crap . Closed up in 86 .


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## ChandlerJPerry (Sep 11, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> Middlestadt was a huge job shop . Nasa , Electric Boat , Dupont , very large government contracts including the nuclear subs , tanks , etc . Family owned and finally family run into the ground . The back breaker was when the sub contracts went nuclear . We were asked if we wanted to rebid the jobs because they went nuclear , and they did not . The weld testing took 1000s of hours alone . They got rid of their smaller customers while doing the big crap . Closed up in 86 .


It's always sad to hear a family owned operation close.  I hope JD can weather this economic downturn successfully, good people work there and it would be tragic to see them lose their jobs.


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## BGHansen (Sep 11, 2020)

There a number of threads on this forum asking the same questions.  Just repeating what you probably already know and what's been given as advice here.    Summarizing, then boring details below, DO NOT try to make this the way you will support your family.

Don't bother (as you mentioned) going after high-volume business.  Mind-numbing work on manual machines as you noted, plus there's no money in it when you're competing against CNC equipment or China.  Example is a speed handle for a mill vise (couple pictured below).  I made three similar to the one in the bottom photo.  Ran the routine on a CNC Bridgeport, maybe 20-30 minutes to crank (pun intended) out the part once the routine was developed.  Absolutely would not be putting any food on the table when competing against these prices.

$11.25 shipped on eBay



$19 shipped on eBay




Best advice has been to find a niche market for something probably not machining-related.  Example is a spring-loaded center for the tail stock to support a tap and hold it on center.  If someone was to develop a nice design and show it off here, they might sell a few.  Frankly, most of us would add it to our project list and make our own.  Key thing is to offer something to a market that cannot do that work on their own.

I reproduce parts for an old toy called an Erector set.  Mainly sheet metal parts, some brass turned parts.  I'm in a collecting club of around 400 members.  Though there are a handful of machinists in the club, no one else is making volume parts at this time, so I've got the niche.  Definitely wouldn't quit my day job for what I make, but I'm at the point in life where I say, "the one good thing about getting old is you get all of your debt paid off".  I'm fortunate to be in a position where I can work for $25 an hour producing a part.  I've arbitrarily set that figure as my minimum or I stop producing the part.  It's strictly a hobby for me at this point, let's me keep my mind active by trying to figure out better/quicker ways to make stuff.

The problem with niche's is they can come and go.  Remember Beanie Babies and the absurd lines at McDonald's when they came out with a new toy?  Key thing would be to have a number of niche's so when one is not in demand, hopefully a few others are.

My brother-in-law runs a successful small-volume molding shop in the Coldwater, MI area (www.protoshapes.com).  They do low-volume production cast urethane parts or one-offs.  He has a lathe and mill in the shop, but jobs out any machining work.  One of their current parts is an air-shammie for car washes.  The design has a steel rod inside the housing which connects the trigger to a ball (valve).  There are small shops in his area that do that type of work; you might try a small business like his for some work.

Doesn't hurt to dream, but start it as a supplemental job and try to grow it into a full-time money maker.

None of us want to squash your dreams, hope you can find a niche and make millions!  Trying to leave it on a high note, hit the website www.displaypack.com.  My uncle started this business back in 1967.  His day job was a speech therapist for the hearing impaired.  He was looking for something to do in the summers to supplement his income and started shrink-wrapping Christian music albums for his uncle's record production company in their garage.  Ended up growing the business into a 2-city block, 5-story building (with 750+ employees) packaging Mattel's Hot Wheels cars, AC Spark Plug after-market products, Champion Spark Plugs, Kohler bathroom fixtures, molding iMac cases, etc.  I don't know if he started out dreaming what his business would eventually grow into, but it could happen for you too!

Bruce


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## stupoty (Sep 11, 2020)

People pay quite a lot for camera grip equipment , and sometimes require custom things to hold this to that.

for example ,









						Wooden Camera Professional Accessories
					

Wooden Camera designs, manufactures, and retails innovative camera accessories for professionals. Including RED DSMC2, ARRI, Panasonic, Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fujifilm, Blackmagic cameras, and more.




					woodencamera.com
				












						Wooden Camera Handgrip (Left)
					

Ergonomic wooden handgrip, carved from a solid piece of Sapele wood which is similar to Mahogany. Attaches by ARRI standard rosette and M6 threaded thumbscrew.It is possible to add start/stop trigger by purchasing the Trigger Box.




					woodencamera.com
				












						Top Handle V2 (2" Slotted Screw Channel)
					

IN STOCK Complete purchase by 3pm CST and order will ship same business day.Top Handle V2 (2" Slotted Screw Channel) is a new top handle designed to screw directly onto the top of a camera or to a top cheeseplate. The Top Handle V2 has a side to side screw channel that can fit two 1/4-20 screws...




					woodencamera.com


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## addertooth (Sep 11, 2020)

I have no desire to start a business. However, I have drawn a couple conclusions on where the profit versus sanity point is.
There are a few shops which specialize in making niche market items, i.e. just enough demand for a simple gizmo to merit producing, but not so much demand that the "big boys" want to dive in and mass produce a product. You can usually discover those niche items by being involved in another hobby community.  You make a gizmo for yourself, you post pictures of it on your "other hobby" forum, and take orders.  There is a guy in this forum who makes rectangular blocks, with a radiused channel, and a hole, which acts as a spacer to lift truck seats.  His per-part profit is sufficient for him to make a modest profit, but the demand is small enough that the big guys don't want to go into production and compete. He appears to sit in the sweet spot is for a small shop.  As a avowed hobby-a-holic, I can attest that virtually all hobby fields can benefit from some gizmo or another... if only someone would build it.

Some examples from just One of my side hobbies, which is air rifles.  There are 3 shops which bore out the valve exhaust hole on a valve to a larger diameter to increase air flow through the valve (for higher efficiency, and power of an air rifle).  A couple of them even do some radius work to further improve flow.  There are a few small shops which make "silencers" for air rifles, to make them even quieter.  Air rifles are NOT considered firearms, so the restrictions on silencers are not applied to them.  Another shop makes replacement "wear parts" for air rifles, whose factory shut down decades ago.  Another company makes improved iron sights for those who shoot match competitions (which fit popular air rifles).  One company makes some trigger guards, for people who want to upgrade from plastic stocks, to wood stocks on their air rifles (the plastic stocks "cast in" the trigger guard, so it cannot be "moved over" to a wooden stock.  This means a new trigger guard has to be manufactured. Good luck finding one of these trigger guards available for a popular model like the "Benjamin Marauder".  Enhanced internal parts for popular guns are very desired.  They can include, enhanced hammers, hammer spring adjustment kits, piston button kits, etc.

Other hobbies of mine, such as hand engraving has similar demands.   I will end up making spindles for some diamond polishing plates which are used to shape the "graver bits" used to carve metal.  I may end up fabricating a jig to get precise angle control on those petite graver bits.

I will even give an example for Our Forum.  Newbies are intimidated making parts.  One very common upgrade on the 7 By 10/12/14/16 lathes is upgrading the spindle bearings from ball bearings to tapered bearings.  However, the tapered bearings are thicker, and require the spacer between the new bearings and spindle gear be shortened to keep spindle gear alignment correct. The factory part is some kind of plastic, most likely nylon.  Although nylon is a decent choice for ball bearings which don't have a significant amount of pre-load compression, it may be short of the mark for tapered bearings higher pre-load values.  This spacer also has a keyway.  As far as I know, nobody makes this shortened part in metal.  Most people end up borrowing someone else's lathe, and shortening their existing part, or they buy a spare plastic part and cut it down before they disassemble their lathe to replace the headstock bearings.   But then, they are stuck with the preload issue with a plastic/nylon part.  For most newbies, the metal fabrication process which would intimidate them (for this part) is the Keyway.   I checked with a local shop on how much they wanted to put the key in the nearly-finished collar, and they wanted a hundred bucks.   I am fabricating one such part right now.  I will be using a parting tool and the lathe as a "shaper" to cut the keyway.  If I had a small shop with a broacher, I would probably crank a hundred of these out, and see if some place like LMS wanted to add it to their "suggested item" which pops up with their tapered bearing upgrades.  Or, perhaps sell the keyed METAL  collar, along with bearings as an "upgrade kit" on Ebay.

The point is, all hobbies have these niche parts, which would be made in production runs of about 20 to 100, enough to be profitable, but not so huge to be mind numbing.  Pick a hobby, join a forum for that hobby, and fill a need... be a HERO.


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## WCraig (Sep 11, 2020)

You're sure you want to be a business owner?  Those nights wondering where you are going to get the cash you need next week?  Finding and selling to customers?  Collecting from customers that 'lost your invoice'.  Dealing with suppliers that over-promise and iunder-deliver?  Banking, accounting, taxes, legal, ...

If that doesn't scare you off, an avenue you might want to explore is taking over a retiring machinist's business.  Find the small (ideally one-man) local businesses that do something like what you're interested in.  Hopefully at one of them the owner is approaching retirement age.  Talk to him about a succession plan.  Maybe you work for him for a few years getting to know his business and customers while you build your skills and experience.  You and the current owner would have to work out a plan that you can both live with.  

BTW, I think your welding skills would be valuable.  Small businesses, farmers, etc, often need one-off repairs or mods that depend on welding. Probably won't make you rich, but seems likely to help pay the bills.

My $0.02...and we don't even have pennies here in Canada anymore!

Craig


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## NC Rick (Sep 11, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> Hey everyone, just musing a little bit right now and I thought there are probably some individuals on this forum that would be able to chime in. I know this is the *hobby* machinist forum, but I don't find the more professional cousin of this forum to be particularly friendly. Some background: I spent a little over two and a half years working for an aerospace machine shop in their sheet metal department before being laid off in July due to coronavirus related slowdowns. The job wasn't half bad, however I didn't find it to be the type of place that was interested in creating what I would consider to be true machinists, more parts pushers that could do one step of a process to make a good part. The good of it was that it ignited my interest in machining, I was usually using one of the few bridgeports (total CNC, production oriented shop, no repair/service work to necessitate manual machines) in the shop for personal projects after hours, and it has led to me contracting the sickness and purchasing a lathe and mill . I also do know how to weld (Took welding in school and worked at it professionally for a short time) but am lacking a machine at the moment, 120v only power in my garage has limited my options there and made me hesitant to purchase anything for fear that I will be disappointed by its performance. Some may have seen my recent purchase of an Enco branded RF-30, as well as an Atlas QC54 that I'm in the process of restoring.
> 
> Anyway, like many other people I do have the pipe dream of one day running my own operation and getting to have a one man band shop to pay the bills. I've found a new job in a completely different field, but ultimately don't feel a ton of passion for the work, which has really set my mind turning about my occupation. Coming from my recent background I'm familiar with the dizzying array of equipment a major commercial shop would have, which I'm approximately only 2.743 million miles away from comparing to with my two manual machines and decent set of mechanic's tools in a 10x20 garage . However that also means that my experience is rooted in the large scale commercial world, not that of the small job shop world, which I am largely unfamiliar with. Is there any work to be had for such humble beginnings with only manual machines? Or am I dreaming until I increase my dragon's hoard of equipment and space available? I'm primarily interested in repair/service work, and short runs/one offs. I know long run production is where the money is, but frankly having to do the same part 1000 times over makes me feel like my eyes are going to bleed. Prior to my unemployment I was occasionally getting small side jobs every so often such as minor modifications to turbocharger housings or brake calipers, etc. $100 here, $100 there type jobs that I would complete at my previous employer, usually with pretty basic tools. I will definitely be resuming that type of activity once I get my machines set up, and who knows, it could turn into a somewhat more steady customer base over time. But are there any markets or businesses that could be untapped that I'm not thinking of? Or maybe some of the users of this forum have experience trying to grow this kind of business from ground zero. To me right now, it is a purely a hobby and not a livelihood, but sometimes I can't help but daydream about it becoming something more.


I'm new here, been on PM for quite a lot of years.  We may have some similarities if not a bit upside-downness going on.  In high school primarily, I worked a few jobs in machine shops including working with a family friend who had a pretty big screw machine shop, I can still smell those machines.  My first lathe was acquired in the mid-seventies along with a 1940s vintage Bridgeport. Since 2002 I have been supporting my family using upgraded machines (only upgraded during that time).  I feel like I have been helped and supported a lot by "that other site" i just would never admit to having anything made in Taiwan.  I find it to be a little funny because I know if I visited most any of those companies, there will be more money in Chinesium than I have ever spent.  Seriously, who could really run a productive high to mid volume machine shop with vintage manual machines.  I use them for specific functions supporting our core small business while a friend with a "real machine shop" makes the volume of parts with his vast skill, knowledge and equipment.  my shop is in my home and evenings are spent tinkering with a great hobby that is not backed up by a career of being a machinist. I am still on a steep learning path at 65 years old and I know my friend of nearly 40 years who did make the machine shop his business still shares his passion of machinery and machining as his favorite hobby with me.  I don't care for judgmental stuff That can go on but I do see where I would ask some questions and banter here and at the same time get help from the experience there on certain things.  I own the wrong version of South Bend lathe for that specific forum as mine was built in France (heaven forbid).  When I was a young man, it was still cool to have a big line of Bridgeport j machines that these days only really serve to make some of us happy at an auction or find a spot in a repair of support role at a "real shop".  My hobby interest is in manual machining and machines which is more akin to being a museum curator these days.  I still feel like the old masters of this art are around and influential.  New ways of thinking will continue to transform the field and our world.


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## silverhawk (Sep 11, 2020)

Don't turn your hobbies into work unless you are willing to no longer have it as a hobby. In other words, once it becomes work, you can't escape work by doing it outside of work.

When I worked in an emissions shop for a county, I hated working on cars, but tinkered with computers. When I switched back to working in computers, I worked on the car and hated working on computers. 

Once a hobby becomes work, you have the potential to lose that love of it. Granted, we have a few anomalies here on this list, but just be aware. 

joe


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## Buffalo21 (Sep 11, 2020)

My grandfather and his 2 brothers, ran the small rural 3 man machine shop, in the small town I grew up in. I spent a good share of my childhood, in the shop, first visiting to get milkshakes and candy and by the time i went to college, I could run every machine in the shop. This was in the 60s-70s, they were 100% manual, I used to do jobs of 100-200 parts and found it very boring, but the vast majority of the work was ones and twos. I went to college the 3 gentlemen retired and the company was bought out by 2 men, who went out of business within the second year, if I had not gone to college, I probably would have tried to run the business.

I enjoy my shop time, probably would not feel the same if I had to run it as a business. For me its an escape from the current employment and the rest of the world. I have talk to Bruce on occasion about CNC machining, apparently not its for me, I currently spend a huge amount of my work time programming boilers and burner control systems, the last thing I want to do is come home and have to program a lathe or mill to a specific procedure.

I work for a small company, that sells and services industrial boilers and related equipment, 30 or less employees, I see the struggle to keep the lights on and make the paychecks viable on a weekly basis. I have absolute no desire to get into that side of the business, the service side is more than enough.


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## Nutfarmer (Sep 11, 2020)

Someone has to repair the production equipment. I was always happier repairing and maintaining equipment than being stuck on the production line.


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## C-Bag (Sep 11, 2020)

Addertooth and BGHansen, especially Bruce nailed EXACTLY where I’m at with my hobby turned home biz. Both described exactly how the convergence of skill and a hobby can make a niche. And I’ll add not only do the big boys not want it, they would have a hard time taking it because the sentiment against big Corp is stronger than you know, people like buying and supporting an independent craftsman. Product loyalty doesn’t just extend to big corporations.

There has been so many good pieces of advise here. Also taking over something where the owner is retiring out is an excellent idea. I’ve seen small company after another disappear because either there were no relatives who wanted to take over or they took over and destroyed the outfit.

In my constant search for cheap materials and equipment I’ve also run into guys like myself who have created their own niche. This area has had a bunch for some reason. One guy who had a very similar life path as a mechanic had gotten into the coffee house, then roasting and grinding biz. The only outfit making I think the grinder, was Italian and it was crazy expensive, and nobody made a competing machine. So understanding machinery he had an idea for a machine and bought a 12x40 lathe and Bridgeport and made his first grinder. It works so well the word had gotten out and he was having to scale up. He can sell his machine for a fraction of the Italian machine and make a tidy profit, not a killing, a profit. His niche is like mine, people want a independent run, non corp place that does it all themselves. And will pay extra to support that and would drop the place like a hot potato if Starbucks took them over. There are all kinds of stories like that out there. Like the kid who learned to weave hats in some kind of trad way and it became a thing and has to have his family help weave them for him because demand is worldwide now and the biggest attraction is it’s done by hand. Craftsmanship and skill means something to some people, just not corporations.


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## NC Rick (Sep 11, 2020)

Yep, I'm pretty sure working at that screw machine shop and being put on a small turret lathe to make 800 special pipe fillings taught me something.  I found a different job after making about 500 of them.  I'll say it here "Thank You Buck!" as that was a lesson learned. im Prolly not smart enough to ever have made it doing the cool stuff like tool and die...


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## ttabbal (Sep 11, 2020)

Cool to see another Utah based hobby machinist! Welcome to the fun forum!  

I think if I made a business out of it, I wouldn't enjoy it anymore. I like being able to just tinker in the shop and not worry about the time it takes to make a part. The making of the part is part of the fun. If I had to crank them out on a timetable, I wouldn't enjoy it as much. I wouldn't mind doing one off "hand made" kind of stuff, but people aren't willing to pay for it. Even CNC and 3D printing is like that. People want a thing, but they are only willing to spend $5 on it, don't have drawings and/or want tolerance that would take forever. Or is impossible, +/-0 for example. Even better are the ones that expect to describe something, in five words or less, and expect you to do the CAD for free. 

If you can find a niche though, you can probably make some money at it. Particularly if you can find people who value local made and craftsmanship. Sadly, people often only care about price, and you can't compete on price with China.


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## markba633csi (Sep 11, 2020)

Yes I think your welding skills would bring in more money, initially.  Get wired up for 220 volts and add a welder to your arsenal.
Then put the word out and see what happens.  You might find some spillover into the machining from the welding customers.
The most profitable thing would be to invent a thing, and manufacture it yourself, selling direct from your house.  I'm reminded of Joseph Cossman, the guy responsible for the "spud gun" and "ant farm"  He used to say "this country is _condusive _to making money!"
Possibly you could make some automotive or pet-related product. Most people own cars and pets.
-Mark


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## pontiac428 (Sep 11, 2020)

I could never run a business, because I lack the narcissistic desire to extort a profit from every person that walks through the door, every time.  I've made a career in the government, so Atlas Shrugged capitalism is a cold turn-off to me.  I help my friends for free, and I turn down work that comes with an estimate and expectations.  Working with my hands is my therapy, and that is not for sale.


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## ChandlerJPerry (Sep 11, 2020)

Thanks for the outpouring of advice everyone! Lots of fantastic insight here. My other big hobby that has an obvious correlation to machining is that I'm the owner of a 1986 Nissan 300ZX, but it has some of the best aftermarket support I've seen for a car of that age, from exactly who has been talked about! There are several members of forums and groups I'm in that have done exactly what is stated and found a niche either reproducing parts that are no longer available or making new aftermarket ones. So I'm a little bit late to that market, but I will definitely have to stew on some of my other interests and see if there's any value I can add to them. I actually have a good friend who's asking me to make a part for his electric skateboard when I get my mill set up. We go way back so his will be free, but it's an example of a hobby that I hadn't even considered could need machined parts. It feels very obvious now that it's in front of me though. 

Welding could definitely be more of a draw but I would say that my situation isn't particularly conducive to it. I'm in a rental right now and for the foreseeable future, even if I proposed adding 220V to the landlord as an improvement I do not think there is a way to do it effectively without a lot more money/trouble than it's worth for a piece of property I will never own. I have been interested in the AlphaTig 201 since it will run on 110v and at least give me some reasonable capabilities with steel, I think 110v would still be inadequate for work on aluminum though because of the higher amperage requirements.


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## C-Bag (Sep 11, 2020)

I always cringe at the idea of being a business person or being called an inventor. I just came up with something that people wanted even though I was skeptical it would ever  amount to anything. But then the net came along and through word of mouth it just kept spreading and 35yrs later it’s become my gig.

I don’t do anything like a businessman would do. I don’t advertise. Never have, never will. It’s all by word of mouth, and it works. If I advertised I know I’d get people who don’t even get how it works and I’d have a headache dealing with them. I also don’t have any employees, I do everything myself.

i don’t don’t do bill me later. Even my dealers. i don’t do phones, you email me what you want, I send back a copy of the invoice, they send the check and I send it out the order when it gets here. 

i have spent all my time mechanically automating what I do(not CNC) that’s why the mill/drill and 9x20. So I’ve been able to keep my prices the same for almost 20yrs because my labor has gone down. And my production has gone up 5x while staying a 1 man shop and cutting out my custom work. Doesn’t work for everybody but I am NOT businessman. I have only ever wanted to make things and that’s my happy place.


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## ChandlerJPerry (Sep 11, 2020)

C-Bag and pontiac, I definitely respect and admire that point of view. I've never aspired to be a businessman or to run a business, having seen what that entails for both the customers and the people who work for you. I just like making cool stuff. Ultimately money can add a lot of steps inbetween you and the part you love, which is actually getting to work in the shop and make something.


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## brino (Sep 11, 2020)

Great thread everyone.
I have really enjoyed all the perspectives and experiences!

I decided long ago to NOT make machine work my living.......but now I will wait for retirement to get back to electronics as a hobby.

-brino


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## ttabbal (Sep 11, 2020)

For 220v, I made a large extension cord. Starting with a 10AWG 3 wire cord, with a dryer plug on the end and the matching plug for the welder on the other end. Now I own the place, so I wired it up with a 100A subpanel.


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## C-Bag (Sep 11, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> C-Bag and pontiac, I definitely respect and admire that point of view. I've never aspired to be a businessman or to run a business, having seen what that entails for both the customers and the people who work for you. I just like making cool stuff. Ultimately money can add a lot of steps inbetween you and the part you love, which is actually getting to work in the shop and make something.


There are so many ways to skin this cat. I too was always just seen as one of the machine stock and expendable. I didn’t mind as long I was not forced to make stupid little parts ad nausem. That makes me hate life.

In my last two wage slave tours I finally got to do what I love. Make cool stuff from scratch or improve and fix problems to be able to take stuff to production. Using all my skills as a welder/fabricator/mechanic. Meanwhile this little side hobby had taken on a life of its own as the net was taking off. And at the same time the penny pinching parasites in the front office decided to keep taking away more benefits they finally broke the camels back and I packed up my tools and walked out at lunch time with the middle finger salute never to return. I had let my anger get the best of me but was not going to be treated this way and my leadman who knew me well was not surprised. I had no clue what I was going to do. Two days later the biggest acoustic music dealer in the US emailed me and wanted to become my 3rd dealer. It was not all rainbows and sunshine but I have always lived cheap, never made much $$ and been a self starter so not punching a time clock was it’s own reward. It has just all rolled on from there for the last 15yrs.

Chandler, I was in the same boat. Renting and just getting a clue. Id see this as your opportunity to get time on your machines and take stock of the opportunities around you. Don’t get to deep in debt and stay agile.


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## kb58 (Sep 11, 2020)

silverhawk said:


> Don't turn your hobbies into work unless you are willing to no longer have it as a hobby. In other words, once it becomes work, you can't escape work by doing it outside of work.
> 
> When I worked in an emissions shop for a county, I hated working on cars, but tinkered with computers. When I switched back to working in computers, I worked on the car and hated working on computers.
> 
> ...


This is common. I got into electronics as a kid and loved it. Did well in college because I already knew most of the stuff. But once it was a career, my interest dropped off - who wants to work on the same thing 16hrs a day? Not me. I build cars for fun, but I won't turning it into a business for all the reasons already given.


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## NC Rick (Sep 11, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> I could never run a business, because I lack the narcissistic desire to extort a profit from every person that walks through the door, every time.  I've made a career in the government, so Atlas Shrugged capitalism is a cold turn-off to me.  I help my friends for free, and I turn down work that comes with an estimate and expectations.  Working with my hands is my therapy, and that is not for sale.


I don't think that all of us business owners are like that.  I can make me and my customers happy at a price which is fair to both.  No worries of me ever getting rich, thats for sure. I may be narcissistic but I'm working on it


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## MrWhoopee (Sep 11, 2020)

I spent 20+ years in the job shop business, 11 years as an owner. It's a tough way to make a living, easier if you have steady clients with low quantity repeating work. We had a few industries specific to our area, wineries, canneries, filter and diaper manufacturing, that were our primary clients. As others have said, find a niche that needs something, but not so much that production quantities justify competition.

Most important of all, NEVER TAKE SOMETHING YOU LOVE AND TURN IT INTO A JOB. Just ask any hooker.


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## mmcmdl (Sep 11, 2020)

Nutfarmer said:


> Someone has to repair the production equipment. I was always happier repairing and maintaining equipment than being stuck on the production line.


That's what I do now . They can't move the line to China . ( well , not easily ) .


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## C-Bag (Sep 11, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> That's what I do now . They can't move the line to China . ( well , not easily ) .


No, but they could move it to Mexico. My SIL works for LEGO, and that’s what they did and even had their employees of 20yrs+ train the new crew. kinda made me sick.


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## 7milesup (Sep 11, 2020)

I would suggest marrying a wealthy gal and call it a day.  In 20/20 hindsight, that makes the most sense to me.


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## matthewsx (Sep 12, 2020)

Or at least a good worker that knows how to save....


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## matthewsx (Sep 12, 2020)

I've had several businesses, not machining but I did sell some parts we had made by a local job shop.

So, if you want to be in business the best way to start is with a whole bunch of money, preferably not your own. Then plan on working twice as hard for twice as many hours as you do to make the same amount of money doing the same work for someone else.

Capitalism works best for those with capital.

This isn't to say that a hard working, lucky person can't do very well. But, if you want to do machine work do take the time to talk with some shop owners in your area. I haven't met one yet who thinks it's a good idea.

John


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## erikmannie (Sep 12, 2020)

I have done welding work for people, and I made a fraction of what I make at my boring (non-welding, non-machining) day job.

I won’t take welding (or machining) jobs after I finish the one that I am working on now. When I work, I will choose the job with the highest pay rate.

As a hobby, however, I love to machine and weld. With nobody else’s expectations or limitations, I can enjoy unlimited creative freedom.


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## Lo-Fi (Sep 12, 2020)

What I've found fun is making things for people when they have no other option. It pays for the odd tool, which is nice. Getting the hobby to part pay for itself isn't hard, while getting it to pay for you as well is. Welding, as mentioned, can turn a fair few bob if you're good at it, but be careful not to get into anything safety critical without some certification and liability cover if you're being paid for it. There be dragons.

I also make custom stuff from stainless. One offs to order. Sadly I can't post my work on here because... well, many reasons  They're serious fun to make as every person that I make something for has entirely different requirements. Best of all, they're _delighted_ to pay far more than they would for something they could buy off a shelf. It's _theirs_, just as they wanted and most importantly it's _unique _and always will be. There's _huge_ value in that. However, it's not going to earn me a living. 

I've also been approached privately by a few people here looking to have gears made because they've stumbled across threads I've contributed to while researching where to find or how to make an unobtanium gear replacement. Apparently there's a demand and no supply for oddball old gears, but possibly for good reason. If I could find an old gear hobbing machine, I might look into it.


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## FromScratch (Sep 12, 2020)

brino said:


> Great thread everyone.
> I have really enjoyed all the perspectives and experiences!
> 
> I decided long ago to NOT make machine work my living.......but now I will wait for retirement to get back to electronics as a hobby.
> ...


I'm retired, and I'm back into electronics too, after an extended absence due to 20 years of self employment and other jobs. I have learned a lot in the last few years. Of course, the inevitable slide away from through-hole components and over to surface mount stuff is not making it any easier, especially for aging eyeballs.

But my oh my, the _components_ you can get these days!!! Op amps for a few bucks that outperform anything available 30 years ago at any price! Power MOSFETs that can handle 250A at 1000V, with on resistances lower than many mechanical switches!! Voltage references for $1.50 with specs like 10V +/- 1mV! 6000 _Farad_ capacitors!! (Takes 4 hours to charge with a 1 amp current!!!) Multi-GHz transistors!

Have fun at DigiKey, the ultimate component search engine! And don't buy anything that looks like it's going down the obsolescence tube unless you are willing to redesign a project the next time you want to knock off another copy. Old stuff disappears _fast_ these days.

Also, try out the EEVBlog forum (I'm on as 'dbctronic'). Lots of very knowledgeable, helpful folk, and far more threads than you'll ever have time to read. Just like here!!


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## C-Bag (Sep 12, 2020)

FromScratch said:


> I'm retired, and I'm back into electronics too, after an extended absence due to 20 years of self employment and other jobs. I have learned a lot in the last few years. Of course, the inevitable slide away from through-hole components and over to surface mount stuff is not making it any easier, especially for aging eyeballs.
> 
> But my oh my, the _components_ you can get these days!!! Op amps for a few bucks that outperform anything available 30 years ago at any price! Power MOSFETs that can handle 250A at 1000V, with on resistances lower than many mechanical switches!! Voltage references for $1.50 with specs like 10V +/- 1mV! 6000 _Farad_ capacitors!! (Takes 4 hours to charge with a 1 amp current!!!) Multi-GHz transistors!
> 
> ...


Wish you electronics guys would get together and make fixes for all these dead or dying super cheap now CNC centers. Maybe there is already folks fixing them, dunno.


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## ttabbal (Sep 12, 2020)

CNCs are deceptively simple. You can usually run the existing drivers with standard stepper controller signals. So you just lose the main controller and replace it with Mach or linuxcnc. If not, replace the motors and controllers. Tool changers and probes add complexity, but nothing you can't overcome. Particularly if it's even a little operational and you know your way around an oscilloscope. If I find one cheap enough, with decent mechanics, I might give it a go. The trick is that the ways are often worn and it's not worth the effort to fix the motion contol on a clapped out machine.


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## addertooth (Sep 12, 2020)

FromScratch,
Like you I made my living in Electronics design and instrument calibration for decades (after the Machining industry collapsed). Then I noticed that people who did Computer networks had to know half as much, but got paid much more.   So, I switched to Network test engineering and design.   We have some fresh folks with EE degrees which I work with, it is a bit sad.  I never imagined that EE courses would be so dumbed down that they would turn out folks with such soft skill sets.  Old timers (like us), are the "scary old men" of the industry these days.  We don't need advanced cad-ware to design or debug systems.  They look at us like we are some kind of mutant species today. 

Also like  you, I am amazed at the components available today.  There are now single-chip computers (which will run on a hearing aid battery), which would run circles around any of the 8086, Z80 and 6502 based computers I designed decades ago.    Like you, I would have killed for op-amps that had root mean square noise figures available today.   I remember buying Burr-Brown amplifier modules at $200 a piece (1980s dollars), to get my noise factors lower on instrumentation amplifiers, they compare sadly to many offerings today which cost 79 cents.  

I suspect that many of us here would be considered renaissance men, due to our breadth and depth of skills (which have been largely allowed to disappear from society).  I suspect that many of us have children, who believe our hobbies are "unfathomable".


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## ChandlerJPerry (Sep 12, 2020)

You electronics guys definitely practice a black art. I would consider myself competent at basic wiring tasks and maybe even simple circuit design when it comes to basic components like switches and resistors. But concepts like impedance, capacitance, etc and components like mosfets, ICs, and capacitors always make me feel like a crazy person whenever I try to learn more about them . Granted most of my hobbies don't require any electronics knowledge, but seeing the cool things you wizards can design is definitely awe inspiring when compared to my own knowledge and ability.


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## kb58 (Sep 12, 2020)

I did EE for 20yrs, then SW for another 10, now in Field Support for yet another 10, which requires knowing everything about everything. And on the side, I like building stuff, cars, fish pond systems, telescopes, etc. It's nice to have diversity, but as for doing something you like as a career, not so much. That said, I wrote and sell a book on building a mid-engine sports car, which partially funds the car. The good thing about that is that it's completely hands-off so I don't have to deal with customers, and so that's right back to the advice on keeping interactions with customers separate from your otherwise enjoyable hobbies.


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## FromScratch (Sep 12, 2020)

addertooth said:


> FromScratch,
> Like you I made my living in Electronics design and instrument calibration for decades (after the Machining industry collapsed). to disappear from society).  I suspect that many of us have children, who believe our hobbies are "unfathomable".




Actually, I was self employed as a tech writer for a few years, then did home repairs for almost 20. I'm self taught in electronics, and my design tools are a pocket calculator and, at times, a spreadsheet. And good ol' pen and paper, followed up with a word processor. But I started in electronics at age 11, and learned from textbooks, as well as the GE tube manual. Started programming with 80 column cards (FORTRAN). Nowadays, online articles and datasheets are the mainstay, and if I write code, it's Python.

It's hard to find anybody nearby who shares my interests. Really aghast to hear that even EE grads are so lame, with all of the fantastic educational technology available today. We oldtimers all would have killed to have finite element design software, circuit design systems, CAD, and the Net!!!

We've got to keep our knowledge alive. I'm doing my bit in really mastering magnetics. I want to write some documents explaining it the way I've always known it could be, but never is. To newcomers, it seems mystical and abstract, but it's really just poorly documented, the same way over and over.


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## Nutfarmer (Sep 12, 2020)

I just wish the electric engineers would quit with the computer controls when a simple switch would work just fine. We must have the bottom of the barrel engineers designing farm equipment. I just spent two days in an air conditioning system in a harvester  that was computer controlled what a mess. What ever happened to KISS.


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## ttabbal (Sep 13, 2020)

Nutfarmer said:


> I just wish the electric engineers would quit with the computer controls when a simple switch would work just fine. We must have the bottom of the barrel engineers designing farm equipment. I just spent two days in an air conditioning system in a harvester  that was computer controlled what a mess. What ever happened to KISS.



One computer costs less than a bunch of mechanical switches. It's at least half the fault of the bean counters.


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## addertooth (Sep 13, 2020)

NutFarmer,
I can't help but agree with Ttbbal.  A vehicle AC system will typically have to power an AC compressor clutch, and a fan at multiple speeds (typically through Pulse Width Modulation PWM).  A higher end system will need to sense low pressure on the suction side, as well as a high head pressure/heat.  These things can be done purely mechanically, but considering you already have (on a modern piece of equipment), an Electronic Control Unit ECU (for the Engine), it constitutes less of a cost to add a couple of inputs/outputs to the ECU.  This also allows any switches on the dash to be inexpensive low-current switches for signaling the ECU, as versus more expensive high-current switches which have fan power ran through them and using resister packs to Slow the fan when it is in the lower speed positions. 

Bean Counters certainly *can* be tyrants. I bought a used car once, which someone had become frustrated with the wiring.  The previous owner had added two big toggle switches on the dash. One turned on the AC compressor clutch, and the other flipped power onto the fan at full blast. It did work, but it was a real pain to restore back to factory configuration.


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## addertooth (Sep 13, 2020)

KB58,
Do I detect a Lotus influence in your choice of vehicles?


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## kb58 (Sep 13, 2020)

addertooth said:


> KB58,
> Do I detect a Lotus influence in your choice of vehicles?


Yes, sir. Since FWD drivetrains are so common now, I designed a "Seven" around them, placed behind the driver, mid-engine.


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## alloy (Sep 13, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> Most important of all, NEVER TAKE SOMETHING YOU LOVE AND TURN IT INTO A JOB. Just ask any hooker.



I guess I've committed a cardinal sin then.  I took my transmission business and now it's a $30k per year side business.

It didn't start out that way.  In 1988 I figured out how to modify my own transmisson and people found out about it.  I figured what the heck, I've got the fixtures and special tooling I had made, might as well get my money back on them.   That was 12 years ago and now I have 7 different products I've developed.

Before I used to not want to go out to the shop, especially when just a short time ago before my stroke I was working 40-50 hours a week at work, and at lest 30 every weekend doing my parts.   Now for me that is changed.  I just can't sit on my butt and watch tv all the time.   I love it when parts come in now.  Gives me a chance to go play with my toys.

The extra money is great, but I don't need it to survive.  It's nice to have the funds to buy things I want.  I just spent $10k on a cnc lathe.  Most of the time I'm enjoying playing with it, that's when I don't scrap part because of my lousy programming skills.  20 years ago I was good at it. now I'm an old fart with a bad short term memory trying to relearn all of that.

If you have the time like me and can't stand sitting, find something you can do for others and go for it.  I will warn you if you haven't done job shop type of work, make it a hard and unbreakable rule that you have a print to work with.  Sure saves your butt.  I learned this the hard way 20 years ago on a fairly big job I had to eat.

Mostly I enjoy working with people.  I go to swap meets with my conversions and I enjoy talking with knowledgeable people.  But with working with the public you will find that 2% make the rules for the other 98%.  I'm still learning how to deal with people.  I sell  my parts on ebay and the biggest problem there is I need some information from the buyer. I sold a $400 part to someone and have messaged him everyday for a week asking a question about how to set up his part so I can ship it.  I even contacted ebay about it.  If I don't hear from him soon I'll have to give his momey back and I hate doing that.

I'd say sit down and think about what you want your shop and life to be and go for it.  if you don't take the chance, you will always regret it.  Nothing ventured not gained. 

I remember a quote from a customer I had in England 20 years ago.   I made and sold a line of atv parts then and I asked him are atv's big in England?

His reply was:

"You have to speculate to accumulate"

I've never forgotten that.


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## MrWhoopee (Sep 13, 2020)

alloy said:


> I guess I've committed a cardinal sin then.  I took my transmission business and now it's a $30k per year side business.



That's not a job, that's a joy. It's something you enjoy that makes you money, and you DON'T HAVE TO DO IT.


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