# New Mind video- Bitcoin mining, global co2 emissions??



## Janderso (Sep 14, 2022)

My brother and I were talking about bitcoin yesterday. I then saw this video offered by New Mind.
I’m probably more confused now. I never knew about the inherent energy demands of this currency.

I guess you don’t use a shovel to mine for bitcoins 

If you are like me and curious about this currency, you may enjoy this video. I am motivated to find out more about it.
My conservative nature prevents me from investing in something that I just don’t understand.


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## vtcnc (Sep 14, 2022)

Interesting topic and I like this channel how well he explains things. I invested in Dogecoin last year and made about $600 and got my money back. I put the rest back into the crypto wallet and waiting to go to the moon! Who knew? 

Hard and clear warning to others tuning in to keep this thread on track and out of the NO POLITICS zone. If you think the topic of Global Warming and CO2 emissions is not subject to that rule, please get re-acquainted with the rules.


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## markba633csi (Sep 14, 2022)

Get your Bored Ape today!


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## vtcnc (Sep 14, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> Get your Bored Ape today!


That is a bridge too far for me.


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## Janderso (Sep 14, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> Get your Bored Ape today!


Someone please explain what this means??
I don't get out much


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## vtcnc (Sep 14, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Someone please explain what this means??
> I don't get out much


LOL. Let the crypto concept marinate for a few days before you move on to NFTs. Nobody knows what those are.


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## JimDawson (Sep 14, 2022)

A computer is a 100% efficient electric power to heat converter, just like an electric heater. The miner computers generate so much waste heat that you can heat your house with them.  Only mine bitcoin in the winter, and you might actually make a (slight) profit on the power use.


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## rabler (Sep 14, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> A computer is a 100% efficient electric power to heat converter, just like an electric heater. The miner computers generate so much waste heat that you can heat your house with them.  Only mine bitcoin in the winter, and you might actually make a (slight) profit on the power use.


The campus I worked at banned space heaters.  The number of computers in use suddenly skyrocketed.


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## ericc (Sep 14, 2022)

I was talking with a computer scientist the other day.  He said that the only economical way to store renewable energy is to mine bitcoin.  The new processors can switch their power vs processing speed tradeoffs electronically.  So, when there is too much solar, you can consume it by turning up the processing speed so you don't have to sell it at possibly a negative rate.  Supposedly, it beats stored hydro, aluminum refining, Tesla powerwall, flywheels,  etc.  I expressed some doubt, but he showed me a quick calculation showing the feasibility.  I have another friend who tried something like this with Intel Xeon based servers, and they were always winding up at the wrong time.  Somehow the power tradeoff is not working quite right.  He ended up burning up several thousand in racks.


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## C-Bag (Sep 14, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> LOL. Let the crypto concept marinate for a few days before you move on to NFTs. Nobody knows what those are.


But can any of you guys truly say you really comprehend the stock market and economics in general? While crypto mining is a big power drain I know the server farms employed by WallSt and the trillions of flash trades a second done by AI dwarfs the total power used by miners. But we don’t know and can’t really know how much is used because it’s all “proprietary“. Along with the evil twin the banking system. Bitcoin like so many other well meaning inventions was trying to make things simpler and drag things into the light. Block chain was meant to show and keep track of everything. Unlike the banking system and WallSt.

But of course where there is $$ to be made the con men and sheisters are not far behind. The inherent problem was it was so deep tech driven. Maybe to keep those who didn’t understand it out? Certainly worked on me  But I’m just a hardworking guy who has always lived off what I can make or fix and high finance investing etc has always been just gambling run by cons on other cons. Which I also don’t do.

After the crash of ‘08 and listening to a economic historian for 2yrs before it and how it is all unfolding I started reading up on it in self defense. And when you realize all money is fiat and is all based on belief and confidence what makes Bitcoin any different? I obviously don’t have any answers except to just watch the whole mess roil in amazement , watching the pot calling the kettle black as everybody gaslights those they want advantage over.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 14, 2022)

Janderso said:


> My brother and I were talking about bitcoin yesterday. I then saw this video offered by New Mind.
> I’m probably more confused now. I never knew about the inherent energy demands of this currency.
> 
> I guess you don’t use a shovel to mine for bitcoins
> ...



I'm still adapting to our near cashless society, but at least I understand the concept, I can still go to the ATM and take out some bits of paper. Crypto is still science fiction to me for now.  



JimDawson said:


> A computer is a 100% efficient electric power to heat converter, just like an electric heater. The miner computers generate so much waste heat that you can heat your house with them.  Only mine bitcoin in the winter, and you might actually make a (slight) profit on the power use.



Sounds like a good reason to invest in some sterling engine generators and acreage in the Yukon or Northern Alaska.


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## Reddinr (Sep 14, 2022)

So I bought 10,000 bitcoin at $12.60 and I sold it all recently at $59,120 each.  I'm going to buy everyone a beer.

Or maybe that was just a dream.  I may have dozed off.

That's the type of rags-to-riches story that makes me briefly fear that I am missing out.   But, you don't hear much from the ones that lose 90% of what they put in.  There are lots of those cases too.  It is guaranteed since it is mostly (all?) just speculation and a zero-sum game.  For person A to get rich, persons B, C, D... have to get a little poorer.

For me, I have enough understanding of regular, conservative, diversified investing to get me by and have a reasonable retirement because of it (even including the little dips we face these days).   If anyone wants to bet some hard-earned cash on the equivalent of a roulette wheel spin though, who am I to argue?  The same goes for individual stock "bets" and the lottery in my opinion.   And NFTs?  P.T. Barnum should have come up with that one.   So, I'm out and, get off my lawn.  Buy ME a beer if you win big!

I have to give the crypto people great credit for their ads during the super bowl.  Having Larry David play the old-school, always wrong know-it-all sage was perfect.  Now the kids are pre-primed to discount advice from older adults that have seen these things come and go.


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## great white (Sep 14, 2022)

there was a time when coin mining was actually do-able by the average person. But it's gone just stupid, like everything else these days. It's just not worth the average guy's effort to mine (IMHO).

We have what's known as a "Deifenbunker" in our province. In a nutshell, it's a cold war bomb shelter for the Canadian gov't set up by Prime Minister Deifenbaker way back when. It's long since been decommissioned. It's a massive underground complex (offices, living quarters, water supply, food storage, Broadcasting rooms, etc) as you would expect a 1960's era gov't nuclear bomb shelter would be.

The installation was purchased by a private company and they moved in racks and racks and racks of computer banks and they mine bitcoin there now. The facility is underground, so it's easy to control the environment and they use the massive natural reservoirs of cold ground water to cool everything. Solar panel farms all over the place. It's actually quite an ingenious set up.

If you go to their website, there's very little mention of "mining" operations, just lots of talk about fair standards in gaming, betting and vague statements about "blockchain". But I've been there and talked to a couple of their engineers. They're mining for cryptocurrency as much as anything else that they're doing. They just don't like being very public about it, for whatever their reasons is.

But that's the kind of thing the average guy is competing against if you want try and mine bitcoins on something like your laptop or tower computer.

Like every thing else these days, big money forces everybody out in a mad rush to make obscene profits and then does everything it can to _keep _everything out of the hands of the average Joe.

I swear I don't even recognize this world anymore.....I'm not even sure I _want _to recognize it anymore.


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## vtcnc (Sep 14, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> But can any of you guys truly say you really comprehend the stock market and economics in general?


Lol. Nope, I cannot.


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## vtcnc (Sep 14, 2022)

great white said:


> I swear I don't even recognize this world anymore.....I'm not even sure I _want _to recognize it anymore.


The more things change, the more they stay the same...just faster, bigger and deeper.


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## Janderso (Sep 15, 2022)

Just last week I set up Apple pay on my phone.
After watching the first bitcoin video I had more questions. I found this Ted talk on wtf is bitcoin.
This video illustrates the complexity and voodoo magic of the crypto currency.
Someone said, they are afraid they may be missing out by not investing in bitcoin.
Right now, bitcoin is around $20,000. This is the lowest it’s been in a couple years. It has gone up to $68,000 within this time frame. That’s tempting to say the least. Will it come back up? Probably?

Want to get more confused?


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## Janderso (Sep 15, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> Lol. Nope, I cannot.


The lessons learned over the past one hundred years in the stock market, may not be valid moving forward.
It seems the game is changing.
Traditionally if we were in a bear market, the bond market and the price of gold and silver would go up. That’s not how it works now.
Day traders have influenced the game as well. Imho


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## C-Bag (Sep 15, 2022)

great white said:


> They're mining for cryptocurrency as much as anything else that they're doing. They just don't like being very public about it, for whatever their reasons is.


There were a couple of HUGE mining operations in N.China that we’re taking advantage cheap power and cool conditions, until the regime turned against Bitcoin. So what we seem to be seeing globally is gov’s taking this seriously and seeing it as a threat to their control. So they are going after it and that’s part of the huge fluctuations.

One of my favorite podcasters is Lex Fridman because as an academic, scientist, musician and martial artist with Jewish background from Russia I hear skepticism that aligns with mine. He asks the questions that come up for me as he talks to his guests. And several of his guests are from the founding Bitcoin world. What I always came away with was it was a cool concept like so many, that was perverted and weaponized by unscrupulous jerks. The idea your $$ could be gotten off the grid and free of the global system and be retrieved without being tracked was brilliant. I don’t think Shetoshi meant it as a way to make money, but many an inventor didn’t see their inventions as a weapon when they came up with it.


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## Nutfarmer (Sep 15, 2022)

If I am going to mine something, I want to be able to hold it and see it. Gold ,silver and oil come to mind. Something that has an intrinsic value.


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## vtcnc (Sep 15, 2022)

Nutfarmer said:


> If I am going to mine something, I want to be able to hold it and see it. Gold ,silver and oil come to mind. Something that has an intrinsic value.


And then what?


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## Badabinski (Sep 15, 2022)

As a software engineer, I'll chime in and say that blockchains are a neat idea. A distributed, immutable ledger checks all the boxes to make people like me nerd out. Building a currency on top of this datastructure sounds really cool. The problem is that there are inherent limitations in the original idea, and all of the other currencies that have come out are just ways to sacrifice one of the original benefits in order to fix a different fundamental flaw (unless it's dogecoin, which has only ever been a joke that some people managed to make money off of). It's ultimately still software, and all software is fundamentally terrible and limited because our squishy brains suck at creating it (and especially my brain). I thought that smart contracts were the coolest idea ever until I read about bugs in contracts being exploited to steal a whole truckload of money. 

Basically, I feel like cryptocurrencies are a product of our times. They have potential, but nobody is using them for their original purpose (a replacement for cash) and they've been overhyped by companies who want to make money off of you.


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## vtcnc (Sep 15, 2022)

Badabinski said:


> As a software engineer, I'll chime in and say that blockchains are a neat idea. A distributed, immutable ledger checks all the boxes to make people like me nerd out. Building a currency on top of this datastructure sounds really cool. The problem is that there are inherent limitations in the original idea, and all of the other currencies that have come out are just ways to sacrifice one of the original benefits in order to fix a different fundamental flaw (unless it's dogecoin, which has only ever been a joke that some people managed to make money off of). It's ultimately still software, and all software is fundamentally terrible and limited because our squishy brains suck at creating it (and especially my brain). I thought that smart contracts were the coolest idea ever until I read about bugs in contracts being exploited to steal a whole truckload of money.
> 
> Basically, I feel like cryptocurrencies are a product of our times. They have potential, but nobody is using them for their original purpose (a replacement for cash) and they've been overhyped by companies who want to make money off of you.


There are many companies who have accepted crypto as payment for goods and services. It does require fees and exchange but it is accepted nonetheless. I think the lessons learned will come with time as the generations responsible for creating crypto (GenX, Millenials, Y and Z) begin to work out systems that cooperate better together. I do NOT pretend to understand it at this moment in time, but trust that people way smarter than me will figure it out as problems require solving in this every increasingly complex world.


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## C-Bag (Sep 15, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> And then what?


EXACTLY. Me, I’ll take food, clean water, fresh air and health over gold silver and oil. Gold, silver and oil only assume the rest of what passes for civilization is in tact and those things are worth something.


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## ddickey (Sep 15, 2022)

Hexican.


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## Jake P (Sep 15, 2022)

It has been said that sound money (note that this is not currency, there’s a difference) should have five characteristics:

Durable
Divisible
Convenient
Consistent
Have value in and of itself

There are a few things that meet those criteria and have endured throughout human history.


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## rabler (Sep 15, 2022)

My limited understanding is that bitcoin, or any modern "cryptography" is based on certain mathematical problems where the inverse problem is harder to solve.  For example, it is easier to multiply two number than it is to divide.  A*B is solved for C  easier than C/B is for A.   Exponents and logarithms are another example.   The goal in creating any cryptography is to make something that another computer can't decipher in a reasonable amount of time.  Of course to make something secure, you have to worry about the speed of computers in 10 or 20 years.  That means the initial calculation has to be very complicated (like multiplying really big numbers) to avoid future computers from reversing the problem.  So creating bitcoins needs lots of computer operations. Special hardware is now used, so gone are the days of mining bitcoin on your laptop.  This is sort of similar to the idea that no lock or bank vault is totally unbreakable, it just has to hold long enough to discourage the thieves.

The interesting question in my mind is what quantum computing will do to this problem.  It is possible, from what I can glean, that future quantum computers will make current cryptography obsolete, or at least very sketchy.  I wish I had a better understanding of quantum computers but I just don't have the ability to set aside reality as I know it, and buy into the math results.  Solving those differential wave equations just doesn't mean much to me.   But, what will that do to cryptocurrency in the future?


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## vtcnc (Sep 16, 2022)

Jake P said:


> It has been said that sound money (note that this is not currency, there’s a difference) should have five characteristics:
> 
> Durable
> Divisible
> ...


Not to nitpick, but I think that is in reverse. Notes and coins are currency and are tangible. Money is an intangible way to express value in the exchange of goods and services - which takes many forms - ledger entries, credit, assets, etc.

Currency makes up a small amount of the money supply.


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## C-Bag (Sep 16, 2022)

And as far as I’ve been able to figure out what currency is worth is all based on faith. Or inertia. And currency is based on that?


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## Aaron_W (Sep 16, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> And as far as I’ve been able to figure out what currency is worth is all based on faith. Or inertia. And currency is based on that?



I don't believe that has to be the case, until 1971 US Currency was based on a gold standard, but that is not a requirement. The US dollar today is worth what the Fed says it is (faith in the currency). The dictionary definition includes barter as a form of currency, the fur trade of the 19th century being given as an example. Furs definitely had some intrinsic value just as gold or silver does.


Merriam Webster
2a *: *something (such as coins, treasury notes, and banknotes) that is in circulation as a medium of exchange
b *: *paper money in circulation
c *: *a common article for bartering
     Furs were once used as currency.


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## StevSmar (Sep 16, 2022)

ericc said:


> I was talking with a computer scientist the other day.  He said that the only economical way to store renewable energy is to mine bitcoin…


By pure economics from one persons experience, this is likely true. When viewed over a whole society, you’d need to factor in all other associated costs to determine if this use of renewable energy provides the best overall benefit for that society(ies).

My understanding that it’s quite difficult to factor in things like health care costs and mortality when comparing usage of one form of energy over another. In Canada, there apparently are also a whole pile of hidden subsidies that should also be accounted for.


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## StevSmar (Sep 16, 2022)

Badabinski said:


> Basically, I feel like cryptocurrencies are a product of our times. They have potential, but nobody is using them for their original purpose (a replacement for cash) and they've been overhyped by companies who want to make money off of you.


There definitely is much hype!!!! I bet organized crime hope cryptocurrencies stay available.


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## ddickey (Sep 16, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> There definitely is much hype!!!! I bet organized crime hope cryptocurrencies stay available.


And cash.


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## vtcnc (Sep 17, 2022)

ddickey said:


> And cash.


That's the thing about cash. It is easily debased and laundered. One is done through the legal money system, the other on the black market, if you will allow me to oversimplify that part of the explanation.

The hope around block chains is that these two things are basically eliminated from the corruption of the money supply.

The block chain has failed in preventing theft, although it is easily argued that debasing currency is a form of theft. And it the blockchain has not been able to resist manipulation through externalities, e.g., the FOMO or pump and dump schemes.


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## ddickey (Sep 17, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> The block chain has failed in preventing theft, although it is easily argued that debasing currency is a form of theft. And it the blockchain has not been able to resist manipulation through externalities, e.g., the FOMO or pump and dump schemes.


As long as you're in control of your Secret Keys (seed phrase) there can be no theft.


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## vtcnc (Sep 17, 2022)

ddickey said:


> As long as you're in control of your Secret Keys (seed phrase) there can be no theft.


Right, you have to be in control of the key. Isn't there scammer behavior that has wrested that from the wallet holders somehow? I don't know how exactly, but my understanding it is security breaches of some sort.


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## ddickey (Sep 17, 2022)

Also the exchanges hold your keys. An exchange is a middleman that cryptos intent was to eliminate. 
As far as I understand it there are lots of scams that try to convince you to handover the keys in one way or another. Once that's done your wallet gets emptied. Also what I find disappointing is how Bitcoin and most cryptos now follow the stock exchange. Wall Street has gotten their claws on/in it now.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 17, 2022)

ddickey said:


> Also the exchanges hold your keys. An exchange is a middleman that cryptos intent was to eliminate.
> As far as I understand it there are lots of scams that try to convince you to handover the keys in one way or another. Once that's done your wallet gets emptied. Also what I find disappointing is how Bitcoin and most cryptos now follow the stock exchange. Wall Street has gotten their claws on/in it now.



It seems like every plan to eliminate middle men seems to eventually develop layers of middle men. There is always somebody out there who figures out a way to make money "saving you money".


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## Jake P (Sep 17, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> Not to nitpick, but I think that is in reverse. Notes and coins are currency and are tangible. Money is an intangible way to express value in the exchange of goods and services - which takes many forms - ledger entries, credit, assets, etc.
> 
> Currency makes up a small amount of the money supply.


I’ll counter with this.  I think that you may be using definitions based on more recent views of money/currency vs. a more classical definition.

If you have an older paper dictionary and look up money you will find the first definition as gold and silver coin.  

Money should first and foremost be a store of value.  Currency is a means of representing a given store of value.  These are the definitions that I associate with money and currency.  Of course those definitions are being changed, just as the definition of many things are being changed today.

And considering currency as a representation of the underlying store of value, it is interesting to note how the Constitution defines money and what it forbids.  It is very clear that only gold and silver coin are allowed in the payment of debts and that no “bills of credit” are allowed.


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## Boswell (Sep 17, 2022)

I don't own any cryptocurrencies or any Gold so I have no dog in this hunt.

Q1: Does Gold have any actual intrinsic value? I know it is used in some product manufacturing  but it seems like the value given to an ounce of gold is well beyond what it would be priced at as a commodity.  (Right or Wrong?)  If this is correct, then how is gold any different than cryptocurrencies. It has value, only because we say it does. If I am wrong, then there are many other materials that have intrinsic value, not just limited to gold.


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## FOMOGO (Sep 17, 2022)

It's all smoke and mirrors, and we don't own the fun house. Mike


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## ddickey (Sep 17, 2022)

Gold and silver have been used since the beginning of time as lawful money.


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## great white (Sep 17, 2022)

Gold is actually a fairly rare element, which drives a lot of it's value. for example:







That's not a lot of gold compared to how many other minerals we have extracted from the earth. Platinum is even rarer. 

now, out of that limited supply of gold, 49% is used up in jewelry and then investors are the next biggest demand, both together making up 85% of the usage of gold in today's world. 

A lot of the "perceived" value in the mineral is about it's scarcity, with the rest being mostly about the near cultish following that society has somehow bestowed upon it. 

I just see a whole lot of foolishness around a stupid yellow rock.....


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## Boswell (Sep 17, 2022)

great white said:


> I just see a whole lot of foolishness around a stupid yellow rock.....


Yep


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## ddickey (Sep 17, 2022)

What's the foolishness? You mean gold?


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## Aworoeuw (Nov 30, 2022)

Bitcoin’s just a joke for people blinded by greed who think it’s possible to make money endlessly. It’s clear that a currency that’s not backed by anything is not going to end well. People pay money and buy stuff that doesn’t even exist! It’s terrible.
That’s why I never invested in this thing – it makes no sense. I prefer trading because it’s more predictable and connected to reality than this. This android trading platform helps me keep my finger on the market's pulse and make the right moves in time. It’s really not as difficult as some might think.


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## Shotgun (Nov 30, 2022)

You've all heard the story about American settlers buying Manhattan for a handful of buttons.  What is left out of the story is that those natives used shiny shells as money/jewelry and saw a lot of value in them, but had no concept of land ownership.  This is no different than renting a house for gold or diamonds.  One person sees some shiny rocks and the opportunity to live in a nice house.  The other sees riches, while retaining ownership of the property.

Diamonds are worth a lot because DeBeers (sp?) convinced women that is was their best friend, and that a suitor was a jerk if he didn't spend a months salary on a ridiculously small rock.  I've heard, but can't confirm, that there are places in Russia where these same rocks can be picked up off the ground.  Diamonds are now so cheap to manufacture that we can buy grinding wheels made from them at Harbor Freight of all places. To keep the price up, jewelry companies have taken to microscopically enscribing serial codes on the little rocks dug up by child labor in Africa.

It is all worthless, and just a way for us to have a more efficient society than straight bartering allows.  The opening paragraphs to "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" is really appropriate here.  When it all comes crashing down in a few years, the only thing that will really be worth anything is bullets.  Even then, only if you have the means and will to use them.


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## Winegrower (Nov 30, 2022)

In any event, I do feel bad for my friends who bought a few bitcoins for $400 long ago.   When it hit around $60K, they were planning their ”$100K” party.   Now at $20K, they are decimated, forgetting somewhat that they went from $400 to $20K, still a reasonable return.   

But I really don’t think they will ever see it that way.


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## C-Bag (Nov 30, 2022)

Shotgun said:


> When it all comes crashing down in a few years, the only thing that will really be worth anything is bullets. Even then, only if you have the means and will to use them.


Very dark, but I agree. It's funny people talking about worth and what they have tied their reality to. I've always thought WallSt. was just smoke and mirrors and 08 proved that. But for the first time in my life people were putting out books about the whole thing that made sense. The supposed mainstream economists didn't. Stuff like Flash Boys, The Big Short and others was a look  I'd never thought about as I was working hard just trying to keep from going under. Worth is all relative, period. And currency is all fiat at this point. All Bitcoin was trying to do was bypass the banksters, then WallSt and other crooks decided to get in on the action and of course it all went schwangle.


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## mcostello (Nov 30, 2022)

Nothing like sending Your money to a stranger, who knows where and making it untraceable.


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## C-Bag (Nov 30, 2022)

mcostello said:


> Nothing like sending Your money to a stranger, who knows where and making it untraceable.


Yeah, that’s true with any online transaction though. Use your credit card, PayPal, venmo whatever. At least crypto has blockchain, nothing else does. No I don’t do crypto but have been watching it. And it’s definitely not for dummies like me.


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## twhite (Nov 30, 2022)

Invest in machines. Those will always produce a product you can get compensation from. You just need to be motivated enough to follow through. Unfortunately I am not one of those people at this time. 


Cutting oil is my blood.


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## Cadillac (Nov 30, 2022)

And then people like Sam bank man fraud “ftx” guy get exposed. That money laundering goes all the way to the top “gov.” Corruption is rampede ! Like said before it’s all smoke and mirrors. You will never eliminate frauds when it comes to money period.


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## FOMOGO (Nov 30, 2022)

I'm good, just going to continue to live off my good looks. Mike


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## StevSmar (Nov 30, 2022)

I imagine if a cryptocurrency is perfected that doesn’t require mining, there are going to be a lot of ”miners” who jumped on the “get rich quick“ bandwagon that will suddenly find themself with thousands of video cards to use in an awesome session of Flight Simulator.


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