# Any Internal Threading/Grooving Bar Recommendations?



## Ray C (Apr 1, 2013)

OK gang, I'm fresh out of patience looking for a decent threading bar set.  I was hoping to find something that could do left and right hand threading and grooving.  I would prefer something with "lay-flat" inserts since that allows threading inside of smaller holes.

Also, I'd consider an "end-type" insert holder as the "lay-flat" type is not an absolute requirement especially if the bar can dual-serve for threading and grooving.  Diameter wise, I'd like to work inside bores as small as 3/4", maybe even smaller on special occasions...

The usual lack of clarity on product information, is slowing me down.  If anyone has some suggestions, please let me know.

Thanks...

Ray


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## Charley Davidson (Apr 1, 2013)

Could have helped you a couple days ago


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## Old Iron (Apr 1, 2013)

Charley Davidson said:


> Could have helped you a couple days ago



Rub it in Charley!


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## Ray C (Apr 1, 2013)

Where's the love?



Charley Davidson said:


> Could have helped you a couple days ago


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## Charley Davidson (Apr 1, 2013)

Ray C said:


> Where's the love?



Ask Benny


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## bcall2043 (Apr 2, 2013)

Ray C said:


> …………..looking for a decent threading bar set. I was hoping to find something that could do left and right hand threading and grooving. I would prefer something with "lay-flat" inserts since that allows threading inside of smaller holes.
> 
> Also, I'd consider an "end-type" insert holder as the "lay-flat" type is not an absolute requirement especially if the bar can dual-serve for threading and grooving. Diameter wise, I'd like to work inside bores as small as 3/4", maybe even smaller on special occasions...
> 
> ...


 
OK Ray and Charley, I’ll tell you what I have learned so far. As you probably have figured out I am an impulse tool buyer. I have bought two of the stand-up tool holders and have learned some of the weakness the hard way.

The first I bought was a Teledyne MTHOR-103. It had a ½ square shank. It will fit my lathe but the insert is too narrow for the internal thread I need to cut. Ray, you are right about the hole size. The one I got had been altered to try and get it into a smaller hole but is still limited to about a 1 ¼ diameter. Plus it will not do both internal and external work unless you lathe allows you to thread in reverse on the back side. The insert projects to left from the bar so will only do internal threaded/grooved bores.

The second one I bought from Charley was a Carboloy MTHOR-12-4. It has a wider insert and will do the thread I want to do but has a ¾ inch shank and will not fit my tool holder. I plan to try and make a modification to make it fit. It looks like it would be limited to about a 1 ¾ inch diameter bore size.

I have tried the online information and like you have not had much luck. Apparently Teledyne like a lot of American companies has gotten out of the tool business as I have not found a link their tool holders yet.

I’m watching your thread to see what can be learned from you thread about the “lay-flat” tools.

Benny
The Orphanage Never Closes


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## Todd (Apr 2, 2013)

i posted a reply for you in the what did you make today thread over in general saying how i like the stand up style inserts since they can cut a wide range of tpi's without having specific inserts for each one.  The inserst are FLT if i remember right, there are a few size ranges of them but i am not in the shop to give you the exact code.  mine uses a 1/2 shank though and it is plenty for using in a home shop


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## Ray C (Apr 2, 2013)

Todd,

When doing left-hand threads, do the stand-up type hold well?  It seems there's an awful lot of pulling foce on that small screw.

Ray




Todd said:


> i posted a reply for you in the what did you make today thread over in general saying how i like the stand up style inserts since they can cut a wide range of tpi's without having specific inserts for each one. The inserst are FLT if i remember right, there are a few size ranges of them but i am not in the shop to give you the exact code. mine uses a 1/2 shank though and it is plenty for using in a home shop


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## bcall2043 (Apr 2, 2013)

Ray C said:


> Todd,
> 
> When doing left-hand threads, do the stand-up type hold well?  It seems there's an awful lot of pulling foce on that small screw.
> 
> Ray



Ray,
I can't help you with how they hold up with one screw but the small 1/2 shank threading bar I have for internal threading has two screws. The photo below shows the end view of the tool. One screw through the middle of the insert and one through a clamp for the insert. You should be able to see a modification on the left of the tool bar where the previous owner ground off the corners to get more clearance for a smaller bore size. Just saying all tools are not equal.
View attachment 51163


The tool holder is a Teledyne MTHOR-103. I can't seem to find any technical information on the holder. I got it from a used tool dealer. The inserts that I have for it are Valenite TNMC-32NV. Can't find the technical on the inserts either. Got the inserts from the same dealer.

Benny
The Orphanage Never Closes

PS, Don't know what I did! the photo does not show unless you click on it and then it comes up very large.


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## Ray C (Apr 2, 2013)

OK, this struggle is almost over...  I decided to go with the Carmex line of tools.  They made the decision real easy by posting humanly readable information on their web site that clearly shows their features, describes ordering information, shows typical applications and also has software programs to calculate various parameters needed for threading.  I also found a very good eBay seller who carries most of their stuff.   Wow, they have cool stuff like multi-point thread cutters and grooving bars that are actually affordable.  As soon as the order arrives and if things check-out OK, I'll post more information...


Ray


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## bcall2043 (Apr 2, 2013)

Ray C said:


> OK, this struggle is almost over...  I decided to go with the Carmex line of tools............
> 
> Ray



Ray,
I thought you had lost it when I clicked on Carmex and up pops lip balm!  I did find the right link here: http://www.carmex.com/

Let us know the cost information also.

Thanks,
Benny
The Orphanage Never Closes


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## darkzero (Apr 2, 2013)

Ray C said:


> I decided to go with the Carmex line of tools.
> 
> 
> Ray



Good choice Ray! 

I've been very happy with mine, inserts & parts are available through many vendors, & prices are better than Seco.


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## Ray C (Apr 2, 2013)

Benny,

For now, I'm going with a 10mm external shank holder, 10mm internal threading bar and 10 each external/internal inserts.  I went with some high-end inserts that have a nice positive rake and top relief.  I've never seen that on a carbide threading insert.  They supposedly require 50% less SFM which is a nice thing after a couple cups of coffee and the hand gets jittery on the release lever.  The external holder has a set screw to change the angle of the insert.  That was another new one on me.  I'm into this for 200 bucks so far.  Darn inserts are 6 bucks each.  If this were purchased at MSC, it would be well over 500.

 If I like these, I'll get some of the 3/8 IC threading and boring bars-which should handle everything I normally do.  Right now, I went with the 1/4" IC stuff to finish some decorative containers.  I'd also like to try their general profile threading inserts.

Will,

Don't be afraid to throw a suggestion my way...  You got any idea how many hours I spent researching this stuff?



Ray


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## darkzero (Apr 3, 2013)

Ray C said:


> You got any idea how many hours I spent researching this stuff?
> 
> Ray



Ray, believe me, I can definitely relate! I've spent a great deal of time (& money) in the past trying to get familiarized with insert & holder designations. It's gets easier & I can get by now with ASNI codes on what I'm looking to get but then different manufactures will have their own insert grades & chipbreaker designations. Then you eventually learn their ISO equivalents when searching on ebay for deals. Coffee helps here too!

For what I've been doing 1/4 IC is what I use for internal & 3/8 IC for external. Inserts may sound expensive but seriously they last a long time for non production work as I mentioned in the other reply.


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## bcall2043 (Apr 3, 2013)

Ray C said:


> .............  Darn inserts are 6 bucks each.  If this were purchased at MSC, it would be well over 500..................  You got any idea how many hours I spent researching this stuff?
> 
> Ray



Ray,

Thanks for the feedback on your solution to your question. I think we are all trying to learn this stuff. 

I always seem to take what I think is the cheap route and buy used stuff at what I think are bargain prices. Then I find the company that made the tool has gone out of business or has been bought up and the name changed. You can spend hours tring to find out the specs on what you have bought and where to get replacement inserts. I found some listings of inserts online for the two holders I have for  $35 and up. I think sometimes the online sellers take advantage of lack of information on the old name brands. You have probably done the right thing with going new from a known supplier. 

H-M forum member Philco has told me that one of my holders made by the Teledyne is now branded "Stellram" located in Lavergne, TN. That is just a few miles away. It's a small world but it sure is hard to keep up with the changes.

Benny
The Orphanage Never Closes


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## Ray C (Apr 3, 2013)

Benny,

Yeah man... Going cheap often costs more in the long run.  In general though, I was just impressed by the clarity of information with the Carmex stuff and furthermore, the dealer I found was good to work with.  He emailed responses with direct (and correct) answers to my questions.  I can't comment on the quality of the tools but but, I'm hopeful this is a decent product line.  The Dealer's name is Avi with an eBay store (http://stores.ebay.com/Carbide-Discount?_trksid=p2047675.l2563).  I think they do direct sales but am not certain.  I'll try to find-out.

In your case 20, 30+ bucks for inserts will kill your margins.  I couldn't keep doing what I do at that cost and I hope you find some compatible ones that don't break the bank.


Ray

ps:  Check the Carmex USA site and look at the catalog.  Lot's of information there and I think these guys have covered all the bases!  http://www.carmexusa.com/







bcall2043 said:


> Ray,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback on your solution to your question. I think we are all trying to learn this stuff.
> 
> ...


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