# Looking for Sanford MG-612 Surface Grinder owners



## kevin

I'm looking for Sanford MG-612 surface grinder owners who are willing to share tips and information on tooling, sources for parts, grinding wheel adapters, etc., and other useful information. *Please note I am looking for information for the MG model specifically.*

Very recently, I purchased a Sanford MG-612 - it's in pretty good shape, but still needs a bit of work (plus I still need to move it into my basement workshop!). I've already started a web page on my acquisition, and I'm making a record of relevant information I have found searching the Internet. Here's a link to the web page, still very much a work in progress:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder

I would very much appreciate help from anyone willing to share information on things like this:

grinding wheel adapters - did you build or buy (where?)
associated tooling - wrenches, wheel removal tools, etc.
useful modifications or improvements you have made
tips, suggestions, advice, etc.
useful web links specific to the MG-612
Also, for those willing to share information about your specific grinder:

serial number
when purchased?
where purchased (city, state)
purchase price
condition when purchased, accessories included
photos welcome!
Finally, one more piece of information I am looking for specific to my purchase: There are no table stops on my grinder. I will be making stops, and I would like to make them similar to the original if possible. If anyone can provide pictures of table stops, I would appreciate it.


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## benmychree

I see that Sopko adaptors and other tools are mentioned, if you do not know that already, they are still in business, selling the same stuff as you sell, including the "Glare Gearnut"that you show.


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## kevin

John - Thanks for the comment. As a matter of fact, I just bought a "gear-nut wrench" from Sopko (via MSC), along with one of their wheel-pullers. I've also been in touch with Sopko via email about wheel adapters. It appears that my spindle has a non-standard taper (or at least, not a taper of 3" per foot, which is common). The email conversation is still ongoing, but once I have some useful information I will post it here.


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## benmychree

The William Sopko Company is very accommodating, and deals direct with end users besides being sold through dealers; they offer other items besides those that have been noted, including high speed endless (flat) belts, special screws for mounting internal grinding wheels, and other grinding accessories that I can't recall just now.  I have not used the gear nut mounting personally but do have a number of their wheel hubs, including one with a balance feature, the combination wrench and wheel puller that I use both with my B&S Micromaster surface grinder and my #1 Norton cutter grinder.


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## kevin

I've been corresponding with Sopko via email, and the conversation has been very helpful. I'm looking to buy additional adapters for my machine, and with Sopko's help I was able to determine that the spindle taper on my machine is TPF=2.787" (or there-abouts). Unfortunately for me, this is a non-standard spindle taper and Sopko has confirmed that they do not have anything in their catalog to match it. They have offered to inspect my current adapter and offer me a quote for a custom adapter, and I am thinking this over.

Meanwhile, I am hoping to find other Sanford MG owners to see what they have done about this. I haven't confirmed it yet, but I think it may be that some Sanford MG machines have the standard TPF = 3", and others are like mine. If there are other Sanford MG owners with my spindle taper, I'd like to know what they did to get wheel adapters.


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## projectnut

Attached are a few pictures of my Sanford MG surface grinder.  It has the serial number 1544039M.  I believe the date of manufacture was 1954 in that it has the original magnetic chuck with the Sanford logo and machine dealers tags attached. The build date of the chuck is
1954.  I purchased it about 7 years ago from a shop in Oshkosh Wisconsin.  The owner had been doing contract repair work for Mercury Marine..  He wanted to retire and knew the only would be able to is to no longer have the machinery to continue.  I do use it on a fairly regular basis.  Most recently I used it to make a set of spacers for my horizontal mill arbor.

This is the way it looked when I purchased it.  I have not done anything to the machine other than replace the motor bearings, change the belt, and replace a few damaged oilers and missing screws.  I believe the cabinet and all parts of the machine except the spindle cover are the original color.  The spindle cover may be original, but has been painted machinery grey rather than green.  The green is the same color used in the Sanford advertising brochures.  I believe originally the opening on the cabinet faced the rear.  However since I use the cabinet to store stock and tooling I found it much more convenient to have the opening face the front.  

One thing to be sure to check is the gear ratio on the spindle down feed.  When I first got it I was having an awful time trying to grind to specs.  It took a while to figure out the down feed gear ratio had been changed from 3 to 1  to 4 to 1.  Essentially I was only feeding down .00041" per increment on the dial rather than the .0005" as the dial indicated.

I do not have any quick change hubs for the wheels.  Each wheel goes directly on the spindle.  I do have a number of different dressing tools including a radius dresser.  As you can see I fabricated one from a 2" LB style electrical conduit body.  The optional dust collector was a $2575.00 option the original owner did not purchase.











A couple side notes.  The bare machine originally listed for $9097.00.  The cabinet was another $810.00, the work light $140.00 option, and the Walker magnetic chuck was another $1010.00.  The optional table stops would have cost another $430.00, and the rear belt guard $410.00.  In addition an angle dresser listed for $675.00 and a straight dresser was $194.00.  I have no idea what a similar size Boyer Shultz, Norton, or Brown & Sharpe machine would have cost.  To put things in perspective the Sanford was considered a "middle of the road" machine.


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## kevin

projectnut - thanks for joining the discussion. That's a fine looking machine, it looks like it has been well taken care of; seems to have most of the original parts. Do you mind my asking what you paid for it 7 years ago? 

My machine was mounted on the cabinet with the opening in front. I wasn't sure at first if it was an original cabinet, but looking at pictures of other Sanford MGs it looks the same. 

That's very odd about the gear ratio on your down feed; I'll be checking mine to see if it's correct. I can't believe that Sanford would have sold your machine with a 4:1 gear ratio, so I assume someone switched it out at some point. I wonder if the change was intentional, or someone just used the only gear they could find that fit.

Does your machine have table stops? Mine does not, and I am thinking of adding some.

I'm not sure what you mean by "each wheel goes directly on the spindle." Could you take a close-up picture of a mounted wheel (with the wheel cover removed of course) to show how it is mounted? In fact, I would greatly appreciate it if you could take a few more close-up pictures of the machine generally; the pictures you already provided are great, but it's hard to make out some of the fine details.

I ask a lot of questions, don't I? I guess no good deed goes unpunished ;-)


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## Bob Korves

What kind of table stops are worth $430?  Those I have to see, are they solid gold?


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## kevin

Table stops: It's even worse if you calculate the equivalent of $430 in 1950 to today - adjusted for inflation it would be $4,470 !


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## kevin

This is a promised update on custom wheel adapters from Sopko: In an email exchange with Sopko, they said that if I would send them the wheel adapter from my machine, they could look at it and quote me a price for a custom adapter (and they said they would put my adapter in return mail the next day). They did give me a ballpark figure for a custom item as around $450, but keep in mind this is given without looking at my adapter. I'm planning to follow up on this in a few months, and get an actual quote, unless I can find someone who already supplies an adapter for my machine (which does not seem likely at this point).

I'm also thinking that if I can find some other Sanford MG owners with a similar need, we can perhaps pool our purchases into a single order and get a better price for a small production run. This is just speculation on my part - I have not asked Sopko about this.

I want to add that the Sopko people were very prompt and helpful in responding to my emails; seems like a nice company to do business with.


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## kevin

Just ran across this link - it clears up a minor mystery. I wondered why the grinder was mounted on the cabinet with the opening at the back - it's because there was an option with a dust collector built into the cabinet - "Full size rear door gives access for cleanout."


__
		https://factorywhistle.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F19313759938


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## projectnut

Bob Korves said:


> What kind of table stops are worth $430?  Those I have to see, are they solid gold?



The prices I was referring to in my previous post came from the link provided in Kevin's latest post.  I had downloaded this information years ago, but neglected to keep a link to the website.  The information is from quote #2:

http://www.d-and-d.com/misc/MANUALS/Sanford/

Note the form was created in 1992 and was valid through 1996 so these are not the prices paid by the original owner of my machine, who most likely purchased it in the 1950's.

My machine does not have table stops.  I can understand why at the prices Sanford was charging.  Even in 1954 they would have been expensive.  Another reason for the opening in the cabinet is that many of the machines could have been purchased with a "wet grinding attachment" I have seen pictures of some with the tank and pump inside the cabinet.

I'm assuming the change from a 3/1 ration to a 4/1 ratio on the down feed was intentional.  As I recall the shop I purchased it from was using it to grind spacers for the lower units of Mercury inboard/ outboard drives.

Now to the heart of the matter.  I originally stated "the wheel goes directly on the spindle". When I purchased the machine I was told the wheel hub couldn't be removed from the spindle.  In my haste to take the machine home I didn't ask any more questions about mounting the wheels.  I "assumed" the owner meant the hub was part of the spindle.  Now 7 years later I realized he in all likelihood what he meant was that he couldn't remove the hub from the spindle.

This conversation made me a bit curious as to how I would balance the wheel(s) if needed.  So far I haven't balanced any of the wheels I have, and have gotten what I would consider an "acceptable" finish.  The finish isn't mirror smooth on some materials, but I attributed that to the machine being over 60 years old. 

Yesterday I started disassembling the machine and here's what I found.  First I removed an end cap that was pressed into the end of the spindle.  I should have taken a photo prior to removing it, but it's now hiding somewhere in the shop.  I heard it ricochet a couple times, but as always it's final resting place is currently unknown.  As you can see there is a nut holding the spindle to the arbor.  I removed the wheel nut, spacer, and wheel guard to expose the complete hub..  As the previous owner mentioned the hub would not come off the arbor, at least not without a little persuasion.  I didn't want to beat on anything so I got a gear puller out of the cabinet and set it up to attempt to remove the hub.  A couple turns later and a heart sinking POP and the hub was free.

I can understand why the previous owner said it was permanent.  There was a good coating of rust between the arbor and hub on both tapers.  I was able to polish both the hub and arbor as seen in pictures in the next post.

Here are some photos of the wheel and mounting.  Note the spanner wrench sitting on the vise is a Sopko brand # 9-424.  It didn't come with the machine, but rather was purchased from a used equipment dealer.


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## projectnut

Here are some additional pictures of the spindle and hub.  I haven't done a critical measurement of the spindle taper, but with a cursory check I believe it is the standard 3 TPF.






Note the flanged ring sitting on the vise in the pictures.  I believe it's supposed to be a retainer for the spindle bearing.  There is a threaded hole for a set screw, but there doesn't seem to be much room between the spindle housing and the retainer for an Allen wrench.


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## Bob Korves

There is a puller tool that fits the I.D. of the hubs.  Most hubs are threaded internally for it, but some are not.
http://www.wmsopko.com/sopko_82.htm
The first one on the list, p/n 00116, fits my machine and many or most surface grinders found in a hobby shop.  It could easily be shop made if you don't like the price.
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05924253


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## kevin

projectnut - great set of pictures - thanks!

If you have time please measure that taper and confirm the TPF; it may be 3" but it may be like mine (I can't be the only one!). I'm hoping to find other Sanford owners with the same non-standard taper as me, who might be willing to get together on a custom buy from Sopko.

Is your adapter left or right hand thread? Sopko says it should be LH, but some people use RH anyway.

I can't tell from your pictures whether your wheel adapter is internally threaded for a puller, but I would guess that it is. I bought the puller from MSC and it works perfectly with my adapter. The spindle nut looks like it might be shop made; all the other Sanford I have seen so far use a 7/8" hex nut (https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05924006). The hex nut requires a special thin-walled socket, but some people just grind down a standard socket.

Here's my spindle (before cleanup); TPF =2.787" (not standard). Looks like what might be your flange on the left end of the taper.




Here's my adapter (puller tool just above wheel). My adapter uses something called a "glare gear nut" and requires a special gear wrench to crack it open. You can see the internal threads on the wheel adapter, where the puller screws in. The threads on my gear nut are LH. The grinding wheel in the picture is a once-upon-a-time 7" wheel which has been worn down to 4.9".




I've seen a number of people say they never balance their wheels (but they do dress them). One source I found (lost the link, sorry) said wheels 7" and under don't typically need to be balanced. Others I have read say to get the best possible finish you need to balance. My concluysion is that it is possible to get a perfectly acceptable grind without balancing, although "acceptable" may not be the best the machine is capable of.


For the complete album of all my Sanford photos, look here : https://photos.app.goo.gl/DxA0ndhxk4dyiMED2
For my web page, look here: https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder


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## kevin

Here's more questions for the group:

I just removed the column cover, and got a look at  the vertical feed gears (picture below). On my machine, there is no oiler, or provision for lubrication, that I can see. The gears look dry as a bone to me, so if they were ever lubricated it was a long time ago. The Harvey LG (supposedly a "copy" of the Sanford MG) has a top oiler for these gears.

Sanford MG owners: Do you lubricate these gears? If so, how, and what lubrication do you use?


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## kevin

projectnut - 

I just noticed that MSC also sells a Sopko LH slotted nut (https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05924154?fromRR=Y), so I assume this is supplied with some adapters. They also sell a wrench to work with it (different from your wrench).


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## projectnut

Here's a little more information on my machine.  The small end of the spindle taper is .687".  The large end is 1.000"  The length of the taper is 1.275".  There is no provision on the hub for balancing the wheel.  In Kevin's last set of photos the gear type adaptor on the rear of the wheel appears to be for balancing.  Also there is a flanged ring set screwed to the spindle at the shoulder of the taper that appears to be a dust guard rather than a bearing retainer. 

The hub removal tool sounds like a great idea, however there are only 2 full threads on the inside bore on my hub.  I believe they would have stripped out long before the hub popped loose from the spindle.  The threads on the spindle that retain the hub are left hand.  The ones on the hub that retain the wheel are right hand.  As for the spindle nut, Travers Tool Co. and other suppliers sell both hex and slotted nuts.

While the taper on my spindle may be standard (haven't done the math yet), I'm not sure the spindle itself is original.  When I removed the hub I could plainly see one of the spindle bearings recessed in the housing about 1/2".  I could clearly read MRC 205SZZ   Made in USA  Pat. Pending printed on the seal.  First off I don't believe the 205 series bearings are high precision, plus when I Googled them I found they are metric.  They are listed as having a 25 mm ID.  Maybe that's close enough. to be used for a 1" bore, but I don't think metric bearings were even available in this country in 1954.

As for oiling of the vertical feed gears, take a look at the 3rd picture in my first post.  My machine has 2 Gits type brass oilers on top of the column.  One is directly over each of the gears.  I just put a few drops of oil in each before using the machine.

One last observation.  If the Harvey machine is really a copy of the Sanford I can see why the table stop option was expensive.  The front of the table is plain, so the T slot channel and stop blocks would be part of what would need to be ordered.  Also the stop mechanism bolted to the way cover appears to be cast.  I'm sure that's why it was a rarely ordered option.  I would think almost any shop could fabricate 10 stop systems for less than it would cost to purchase 1 from Sanford.  Over the years I have used at least a dozen different brands and models of surface grinders.  About the only ones I've seen where table stops are used regularly are the hydraulic auto feed  ones.


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## kevin

projectnut - 

I calculate your TPF = (1−.687)÷1.275×12 = 2.946", or essentially TPF=3" allowing for the inaccuracies of measuring taper with a caliper; I'm guessing your spindle is original, but certainly not the metric bearings.

You may be interested in this: 

https://www.vxb.com/2-Angular-Contact-Bearing-7205B-25x52x15-p/kit1088.htm

Note the related comment:_ Reviewer:  John From Wallingford from Wallingford CT   -  _I use this in a Sanford Model MG612 surface grinder. The grinder calls for high precision ABEC class 7 bearings costing in the neighborhood of $300.00 for the set. But in a non production shop these are just perfect and I can still grind to withing 0.0005" 

I don't believe my gear type adapter has any balancing function. I took it apart and took some pictures to give you a better look at it. I bought the gear nut wrench from Sopko via MSC - it came with a spare "glare gear nut" and "glare washer" both of which fit my adapter.  I'm thinking the main part of the adapter could be made without too much difficulty, and the gear nut and washer can be purchased, so this might be another way to come up with additional adapters (not a problem for you, as you have a standard taper).








Would you mind taking a closeup picture of your top oilers? What kind of oil do you use in them? Are they original to the machine or added later? 

Note: I see what appear to be similar oilers in some of the advertising pictures (but not in others) - maybe Sanford started adding them at some point?


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## Bob Korves

projectnut said:


> The hub removal tool sounds like a great idea, however there are only 2 full threads on the inside bore on my hub. I believe they would have stripped out long before the hub popped loose from the spindle. The threads on the spindle that retain the hub are left hand. The ones on the hub that retain the wheel are right hand. As for the spindle nut, Travers Tool Co. and other suppliers sell both hex and slotted nuts.


The taper on those spindles is quite conical and the wheel adapters should come off easily.  I can usually take mine off almost without a wrench.  The wheel adapters do not need to be cranked on to the spindle really tight.  If there is rust on the spindle taper or in the wheel adapter, then that needs to be addressed carefully, because spindle taper runout should be held to very tight tolerances, not more than .0001".  Please do not take sandpaper or a file to it.

If the wheel turns clockwise as viewed by the operator, then the spindle thread and the wheel adapter flange nut should both be left hand thread.  A two tooth washer fits into slots in the wheel adapter, and mounts between the grinding wheel and the threaded flange.  A surface grinder should not be used with that washer missing.  They are cheap and easy to purchase.  The flange and wheel can easily depart the wheel adapter without the toothed washer present.  In a pinch, a right hand threaded wheel adapter can be used on a clockwise turning wheel, but ONLY if the toothed washer is present, and that is still not a recommended procedure (though it does seem to work.)
http://www.wmsopko.com/sopko_045_78.htm  bottom of page

Wheels coming apart from crashes or cracks in them, thrown parts or wheels, and spinning wheels contacting body parts are the biggest dangers around a surface grinder, and all can be debilitating or fatal.  Y'all be careful out there...


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## kevin

My spindle had just a bit of light rust on it - more of a tarnish really. I cleaned it up with a brief application of Scotchbrite (Very Fine).

My Sanford MG (Ser. # 1561323 M) has an non-standard taper, and I'm still looking to find someone else whose machine has the same taper. I'm also curious to see if machines made in different years had different tapers. I'm assuming the MG serial numbers follow the same patter as Sanford SG serial numbers (http://www.lathes.co.uk/sanford/), which would mean my machine was made in 1956 (the first two digits are the year of manufacture, unless the first digit is is 1, in which case disregard the 1).

projectnut - that would confirm your machine serial number 1544039M was made in 1954.


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## projectnut

Correction from my last post.  There are 3 spring loaded oilers on top of the column.  One for each of the ways the wheel assembly moves on, and one over the large miter gear.

Like Kevin I also used a very fine (blue) Scotchbrite pad to remove the rust from the spindle and hub.  As for the toothed washer, my current hub has only a single tooth, not two as in the link Bob provided.  I'm not sure if the hub I have came with the machine is the original or an after market one.  It does have right hand threads for the nut holding the wheel to the hub.  I would think this arrangement would be better suited for a machine that has a counter clockwise wheel rotation.  About the only ones I know that do are the old Delta Toolmakers.  I've never used one, but I've always wanted one where the head could be swiveled for odd size pieces

Here are a couple pictures of the top of the column with the oilers.  The manual recommends 10W oil for all the various oils.





ON EDIT:  I was just reading through the manual and realized the hub on my machine is not original unless it was a special order.  The manual states the nut holding the wheel should be turned clockwise to remove it.  This means it would have left hand threads.  My wheel retainer nut has right hand threads.


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## kevin

projectnut - 

I'm still thinking that those oilers may have been added later by a previous owner. I took another close look at the column cover for my Sanford MG and do not see any indication that there were ever any oilers in the top (no oilers, no holes visible inside or out, no sign of holes that have been plugged). I have heard the theory before that it is better not to oil/grease these gears because it just traps grinding grit and increases wear; the fact that these gears are essentially fully enclosed by the column cover might support that idea, but I'm not sure I buy it. On the other hand, if the vertical feed gears on my machine have been lubricated at all in the last 50 years, I don't see any sign of it. The Harvey LG "copy" of the Sanford MG has oilers on top, so Harvey must have thought it was a good idea; I'll probably add some eventually, but another few months isn;t going to make a difference.

I assume you are looking at the manual that is posted at http://www.d-and-d.com/misc/MANUALS/Sanford/  regarding lubrication and the recommendation to use 10W (machine oil I assume, not motor oil). I had a lengthy discussion with another Sanford MG owner on this topic, and I think we both decided to use Vactra 2 way oil (or any ISO 68 way oil; emphasize way oil, not machine oil). I came to this decision after looking at the Grizzly manual for their (somewhat similar) surface grinder: http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-12-Surface-Grinder-w-Stand/G5963 (the manual is here: http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g5963_m.pdf

The 7/8" hex spindle nut on my machine has LH threads. Another Sanford owner I traded email with has a machine with a standard spindle taper of TPF=3",and also has the same LH spindle nut. So far I only have a bit of information on 5 different Sanford MGs - not near enough yet to get an idea of what was standard for the machines, and how that may have changes over time (all the machines I have info on are from the 1950s). The one Harvey LG I have info on has a TPF=3" with a LH thread spindle nut.


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## kevin

Here's another bit of trivia for Sanford MG owners. A company called Micromech Mfg. Corp. made a machine based on the Sanford MG (which leads me to believe Micromech may have acquired Sanford assets when it went out of business); picture below.  You can see more pictures of the machine here: https://hgrinc.com/productDetail/Ma...omech-Mfg.-Corp.-Surface-Grinder/12160170004/

The machine is listed as a "surface grinder", but it was actually marketed as a wafer cutting machine (which explains the otherwise odd spindle design in the pictures).


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## projectnut

kevin said:


> projectnut -
> 
> I'm still thinking that those oilers may have been added later by a previous owner. I took another close look at the column cover for my Sanford MG and do not see any indication that there were ever any oilers in the top (no oilers, no holes visible inside or out, no sign of holes that have been plugged). I have heard the theory before that it is better not to oil/grease these gears because it just traps grinding grit and increases wear; the fact that these gears are essentially fully enclosed by the column cover might support that idea, but I'm not sure I buy it. On the other hand, if the vertical feed gears on my machine have been lubricated at all in the last 50 years, I don't see any sign of it. The Harvey LG "copy" of the Sanford MG has oilers on top, so Harvey must have thought it was a good idea; I'll probably add some eventually, but another few months isn;t going to make a difference.
> 
> I assume you are looking at the manual that is posted at http://www.d-and-d.com/misc/MANUALS/Sanford/  regarding lubrication and *the recommendation to use 10W (machine oil I assume, not motor oil). *I had a lengthy discussion with another Sanford MG owner on this topic, and I think we both decided to use Vactra 2 way oil (or any ISO 68 way oil; emphasize way oil, not machine oil). I came to this decision after looking at the Grizzly manual for their (somewhat similar) surface grinder: http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-12-Surface-Grinder-w-Stand/G5963 (the manual is here: http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g5963_m.pdf
> 
> The 7/8" hex spindle nut on my machine has LH threads. Another Sanford owner I traded email with has a machine with a standard spindle taper of TPF=3",and also has the same LH spindle nut. So far I only have a bit of information on 5 different Sanford MGs - not near enough yet to get an idea of what was standard for the machines, and how that may have changes over time (all the machines I have info on are from the 1950s). The one Harvey LG I have info on has a TPF=3" with a LH thread spindle nut.



Just the designation SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) leads me to believe the manual is referring to motor oil.  I have had this discussion with retired engineers formerly employed by Sheldon, Gisholt, Cincinnati,  and Kearney & Trecker.  Almost to a person they feel current day motor oils are far better than the machine oils recommended from the 1940's thru the 1960's.  I have even had the person from Sheldon recommend replacing all formerly recommended machine lubrication oils with current day SAE  10W-30.  I have followed their recommendations on all of my machines.  I do still have a couple gallons of Vactra #2 way oil I use on the milling machines, but other than that I use current day single or multi viscosity motor oils.  I've had some of the machines over 20 years with no ill effects.  In that time I would guess most machines have run an average of 10- 15 hours per week.  Some weeks it's far more, some weeks it's far less.  There have been times when I was trying to complete big jobs and either a lathe or one of the mills has run over 60 hours.  Now that I'm a little older I don't care to work that long or hard.


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## Andy Pullen

Hi All,
I picked up a Sanford MG grinder from a machine shop "yard sale" a couple of weeks ago. There were 2 of them there. Thankfully, my coworker that attended the sale with me got the other one. Each machine went for $50. Attached is a photo in the shop it was in. The wiring was pretty much shot on both machines and the belts were coming apart like $2 suits. 
I don't know anything about the previous owner. It was a little tool and die shop in a former industrial neighborhood in Baltimore city. I never would have known the place was there otherwise.
The machine got a once over when I got it home and the majority of the accumulated dust and crud was scraped and brushed off.
I found a new belt on eBay and replaced the power cords on my machine. Turns out the starting capacitor on my motor was bad. That was replaced yesterday and the motor now is fine. But, the spindle barely turns over when the motor is turned on. Gotta take the spindle apart next and make a decision on the bearings. 
The wheel guard is on the machine. My coworker has the chip guard for the left end of the table.
I'm looking forward to running this little machine. There's no room in my shop for anything much bigger. 
Andy Pullen


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## kevin

projectnut -

With regard to lubrication, I'm a complete novice when it comes to surface grinding, so I bow to your superior experience.

Andy - got your email to me, and glad to see you joining us here. I look forward to seeing more pictures of your machine (and your co-worker's too, if possible). When you take the spindle appart, I hope you will take lots of pictures!

To anyone else who happens to find this discussion, I'm trying to collect all the information I can find on the Sanford MG (and related), and summarize it at the link below, so any additions are welcome. Right now I have some info on six machines, but I'd like to see a lot more.

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder


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## Andy Pullen

kevin said:


> projectnut -
> 
> 
> Andy - got your email to me, and glad to see you joining us here. I look forward to seeing more pictures of your machine (and your co-worker's too, if possible). When you take the spindle appart, I hope you will take lots of pictures!



I will take plenty of photos. Don't worry.


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## projectnut

kevin said:


> projectnut -
> 
> With regard to lubrication, I'm a complete novice when it comes to surface grinding, so I bow to your superior experience.
> 
> Andy - got your email to me, and glad to see you joining us here. I look forward to seeing more pictures of your machine (and your co-worker's too, if possible). When you take the spindle appart, I hope you will take lots of pictures!
> 
> To anyone else who happens to find this discussion, I'm trying to collect all the information I can find on the Sanford MG (and related), and summarize it at the link below, so any additions are welcome. Right now I have some info on six machines, but I'd like to see a lot more.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder



I don't claim to be a lubrication expert either.  I'm just going by what I was told from people in the business.  I worked in the engineering department of a major food company for over 20 years.  Our department designed, built, and installed proprietary processing and packaging  machinery for our company.  The machines ranged in size from smaller than a bread box to multi story 200+ foot long monsters.  We did have a lubrication engineer on staff.  It was his job to analyze the needs and recommend lubricants.  He also regularly monitored and tested the lubricants to be sure those recommended would work under the harsh conditions.  In most any case other than areas where there was potential exposure to the product some type of automobile lubricant was preferred.


----------



## kevin

projectnut -

With regard to lubrication, I'm a complete novice when it comes to surface grinding, so I bow to your superior experience.

Andy - got your email to me, and glad to see you joining us here. I look forward to seeing more pictures of your machine (and your co-worker's too, if possible). When you take the spindle appart, I hope you will take lots of pictures!

To anyone else who happens to find this discussion, I'm trying to collect all the information I can find on the Sanford MG (and related), and summarize it at the link below, so any additions are welcome. Right now I have some info on six machines, but I'd like to see a lot more.

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder


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## kevin

Home at last! Finally got the Sanford MG moved to my basement (picture below). I gave up on the two guys who said they would help me (but it was always "next week"), and moved it myself (in pieces). It really wasn't that much work to take it apart and move the pieces with the help of a shop crane and dollys.

Lots more pictures here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/DxA0ndhxk4dyiMED2

and here:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder

Should be able to do my first test grind shortly. I'm taking some advice I read elsewhere and leaving the table and mag chuck as I found them for now; I'll grind them in one I have a feel for how the machine operates (and I get some new grinding wheels). In the meanwhile, I'll just grind some test pieces that don't matter until I'm comfortable with the grinder.


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## Andy Pullen

Hey Kevin,
I gave you the incorrect serial number for my machine. I had gone off of a slightly blurry photo. Attached is a close up.
My machine had the Sopko 35135 wrench with it. I ordered a Williams #424 wrench for the back of the wheel adapter. Same size as the Sopko wrench, but it doesn't have the socket. 
I ordered the Sopko 116 adapter puller from Travers and it came yesterday. 
The spindle nut is frozen on the spindle, so I sprayed some Kroil on it and when the Williams wrench arrives, I'll break it loose. I really don't want to hammer on it.
Regarding oiling the column; my machine has a Gits oil cup on the top. I'm not sure if it was original on the machine or was added by the previous owner.
The previous owner was a small tool and die shop in a former industrial area in Baltimore city. My first machine shop job was about 2 blocks away. I didn't even know that the street was there. The shop was being liquidated by a neighborhood group, as it had been abandoned...at least that is how it looked. I don't know the company name, even. There was no sign on the building and it looked like the business papers had been carted off. 
Andy


----------



## JPigg55

Here's the only pictures I have of mine from when I went and picked it up.
Long story short, the guy had bought it from Alenco out of Chicago who had rebuilt it, ended up in a messy divorce, and the wife ended up with the house and all his machines. It was even hooked up yet so think it was unused following rebuild.
Anyway, it's still stored in my brothers shed since I've not had the time to reorganize my shop to fit it in yet.
One question, did they come standard with 3 phase motors ??? I'd assumed they did as there was a phase converter next to the machine when I bought it that wasn't hooked up yet. I went ahead and bought the converter as well just in case.


----------



## Andy Pullen

I believe that single phase motors were standard. And, that 3 phase motors were optional.


----------



## JPigg55

Guess I'll have to double check mine and see if it's single or 3 phase.
Thanks Andy


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## projectnut

Here's a link to one of the quotes on the website Kevin linked to in an earlier post.

http://www.d-and-d.com/misc/MANUALS/Sanford/SCANNINGS/Quote-2.pdf

The standard motor from 1992 -1996 was a 3/4 hp 120/240 volt single phase.  The earlier models (circa 1950) came standard with a 1/2 hp 120/240 volt single phase motor.   There were 3 optional motors including a 440 or 550 volt 3 phase


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## kevin

My Sanford MG has a single phase motor, but it's not an original - it's a 1 HP (1725 rpm) ; here's a link to a pic of the nameplate:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6RgGwfesuUiBqs77A

Andy - thanks for confirming the serial number; please let me know when you have a chance to measure the taper. Were you able to get info from your co-worker?

Continuing to collect all Sanford MG info I can find here: https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder


----------



## kevin

First test grind:

I have not yet ground in the table and mag chuck on my Sanford MG; I'm planning to do that once I had a bit of hands-on with the machine, and get some new grinding wheels.  My mag chuck definitely needs a grind (and also has a bit of rust), but seems to be OK otherwise.

Below is my first test grind - a piece of hot rolled steel which I had previously "flattened" on my mill with a carbide end mill. Before grinding I dressed the wheel with a diamond grinder. The wheel that came with my grinder is a Radiac F322185 (originally a 7" wheel, but now worn down to about 4.9"). It took about five passes to get a completely even surface (taking 5 tenths on each pass).

I had one minor scare when I first put the wheel back on and started it up - I had taken the wheel cover housing off and put it back on again, and just assumed that the housing went on as far as it would go. When I started it up, the side of the wheel was scraping the inside of the housing cover. Made a hell of a racket but I shut it down immediately and no real harm done; readjusted the housing and all is well.


----------



## kevin

One more pic of my Sanford MG (Ser. # 1561323 M) - all cleaned up and put back together. The shop light in the picture came with the grinder, but I don't think it's an original. The switch on the light socket was not working, but was easy to fix by just replacing the socket - the old socket fell apart when I removed it.

The grit catcher on the left end of the table is certainly not an original; it's pretty well made though (may have come off another grinder). I like what projectnut did to make a vacuum attachment, so I'm planning to copy his idea.


----------



## kevin

Another question for the group:

The removable column cover for my machine has two holes on either side of the top sides (see pic below). At first I though these were to help attach the cover, but there's nothing but air behind either hole. They appear to be tapped for a #10 screw; not sure if they are original to the machine or not.

Does anyone else have these on their machine? Anyone know what they're for?


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## chips&more

Great score! Noticed your pic on first grind. Maybe I see wheel hopping and left over pass marks. I guess once you get her all tuned up that will all go away. I have the smaller Sanford 4“ surface grinder. Produces almost a mirror finish. It’s one of those toys for the shop that once you get one you wonder how you got along without. Enjoy…Dave


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## projectnut

I just got back from a used equipment dealer.  The owner wasn't there at the time, but I did find a hub for  1 1/4" surface grinder wheel.  It didn't have the washer or retainer nut (left hand thread) so for the time being I passed on it.  After I left I got to thinking it might have a non-standard taper.  A rough measurement on the small taper was .656.  The large end was .946.  It was dirty so I'm sure those won't be the exact measurements once the crud is removed.  I'll be going back tomorrow to talk to the owner and see if he has any more hubs.

I'm out of town right now, but I don't recall any holes on the sides of the cover.  Having said that I have seen other grinders that had a rubber sheet covering the rear of the machine.  In most cases the sheet overlapped the sides and was held in place by a few machine screws. 

 Looking at your test piece it appears you're moving over almost the width of the wheel with each pass.  I was taught to generally use a "medium" grind which would be 25% to 50% of a wheel up to 1/2" in width per pass.  When working the final pass I was also taught to grind until the piece "sparked out".  The term "sparking out" essentially means to continue to move over the piece at the same height until sparks are no longer generated.   You may be surprised at the amount of material that remains after one or two passes, and the difference in finish when grinding until the part "sparks out".

 I'm not sure what grit wheel you're using, (couldn't find the specs in my Radiac catalog), but I believe something like an A36 wheel  with a closed dress would give a better finish.  Be aware that using a soft wheel will give a better finish, but the wheel won't last long.   By closed dress I'm referring to passing the wheel over the diamond at a slow rate.  The faster you move the wheel over the diamond the more open it leaves the grit.  An open grit generally removes more material quicker, but it also leaves a rougher finish.


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## kevin

projectnut - 

I'll be interested to hear what you find out about those wheel adapters.

The wheel I'm using is 46 grit, 1" width with a recess on one side. You can see the specs here. I think I had two problems on my first test grind - I was going a bit too fast and not sparking out. I was only doing about 20% of the wheel on each pass, but I think I did not dress it as well as I could have.

I flipped my test piece over and did a second test grind (picture below). I dressed the wheel again first and took a bit more time doing it. I made numerous passes over the test piece again, taking 5 tenths on each pass, and making sure to spark out. I think I got noticeably better results - not a mirror finish, but very respectable if I do say so myself.


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## Bob Korves

Using deeper cuts along with a smaller step over and only working the part in one direction works better for a couple reasons.  Almost all of the hard work of surface grinding is done by the leading corner of the wheel.  As the corner wears, more cutting occurs at newly formed corners deeper into the wheel, leaving a tapered shape to the face of the wheel.  This causes larger dimensional changes to the following end of the wheel, which hurts flatness, and also tends to load up the following end of the wheel, which increases heat in the work and hurts surface finish.  Commercial grinder hands, using grinders with larger, wider, and more powerful wheels will often takes much deeper cuts, like .020 for roughing work, but with step over of only .050 or so.  The leading corner is working hard, but as the wheel advances across the work the relatively pristine following surface cleans up and finishes the grind, leaving a nice surface finish.  I do the same on my 1946 B&S 2L 6x18" grinder, but to a lesser degree.  I might use .002 to .003 depth of cut with a .040 to .050 step over, sometimes up to .100, for metal removal, and this is with 1/2 x 7 x 1 1/4"wheels...  A single, lighter depth finish pass with the same wheel, undressed, cleans it up nicely.

If the wheel is stepped over in both directions, then both corners get worn, leaving a slightly "U" shaped wheel that will not finish well in either direction.  Try both approaches, experiment and see...


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## projectnut

Kevin, If you're looking for more factory brochures I found 4 of them at this site:

http://digital.hagley.org/islandora/search/sanford surface grinder?type=dismax

There's a 1945, 1953, 1963, and 1965 brochure.

The 1953 brochure is quite interesting.  The list price for the MG is $925.00, which is about 10% of the 1996 quote.  It also lists 2 three phase motors for $18.00 and $30.00 and a DC motor for $35.00.  The base sells for $75.00 rather than the $800.00 in the 1996 quote.  The best part is the optional table stiops for $35.00 rather than $430.00

I didn't get back to the equipment dealer last Saturday, work around the cottage got in the way.  We'll be going back the next 2 weekends to finish things up.  Hopefully I'll get back and talk to the owner about the grinder hubs


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## kevin

projectnut - 

Those brochures are a great find.  That now makes about a dozen different items that have been turned up by various people. I've collected everything I know about into an online folder; I'll add to it if and when anything else turns up. Link to folder:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uiZw6_KHNbhuDRYeXypdqoc2mlhV9kiU?usp=sharing


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## Andy Pullen

kevin said:


> Andy - thanks for confirming the serial number; please let me know when you have a chance to measure the taper. Were you able to get info from your co-worker?



Hi All,

Kevin,

I'm waiting on the second spanner wrench. The wrench is a Williams #424. It's identical to the Sopko wrench I have minus the hex socket. The back side of the adapter has the same hole pattern as the nut. It ought to be here in a couple of days. The nut is still frozen on the end of the spindle. I've been squirting a little Kroil in it each day. 

I would make the spanner, but I have too much other work going on in my shop at the moment. $12.95 including shipping isn't bad....I can't make one for that. 

My co-worker is also busy. He's setting up his shop at the moment. I'll keep after him. 

I did speak with a tool and die maker friend of mine about wheel selection. He recommended Norton wheels and said that the 60H grit is a good starting point. He also said to have an assortment of wheels available for different jobs. 

I never did much grinding in my 38 years. A little here, a little there. Most of the grinding that I've done is on automatic machines. Using the wheels that were already on the machine. We have a big Gallmeyer and Livingston machine at work. 8" x 24". It's a sweetheart of a machine. The biggest one I ever ran was a 36" Blanchard. That thing was a little intimidating. The lights would dim when you turned on the spindle motor on that beast.

Andy


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## kevin

Andy - 

I'm a total novice when it comes to surface grinding, but I'm pretty sure the only good answer to "What grinding wheel do I need?" is "It depends." I started researching grinding wheels after I got my machine, and the variety is mind boggling. One thing I'm sure of is that buying a surface grinder is just like buying a mill or lathe in that once you have the machine, you have to invest in tooling up for it. 

I'm starting out with some 46 grit wheels, but I have no doubt I will be buying more eventually. Ultimately I would like to do some wet grinding with diamond wheels, but that is far in the future for now.

Here's a good video on wheel selection: 




By the way, I've started a second web page with info for people new to surface grinding. IF any has suggestions for additions, I welcome them; I'm looking for good text or video on surface grinding at all levels - novice to expert. Here a link to the web page:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder---2


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## projectnut

I finished cleaning up the spindle and hub a couple days ago, so I thought I'd try it out.  I dressed a slightly used 46H wheel to do a test grind on this piece of A2 tool steel.  I used the method Bob suggested of always working from the same side.  Each pass was .00041" deep, and I moved over .045" per pass    I moved the table relatively slowly left to right at what I would guess to be about 50" per minute. 

I mentioned in an earlier post I didn't think the spindle bearings were precision in that they were marked 205SZZ.  When I went to look them up I found that there is a 205 series made by MRC that is considered precision.  I can't remember the full number, but new from most bearing suppliers they cost around $150.00 each.  I'm not planning on changing them out at this point, but I did see they are available from Locate Ball Bearings for $108.00, and free shipping. 






The finish is about the same as it has been since I got the machine.  I did check the balance of the hub and wheel using a balancer like this:

https://www.stens.com/750-087-blade-balancer-mag-1000

According to the documentation that came with it (I bought it in the 1960's) it's supposed to be accurate within "less than1/10 oz.  I'm thinking the accuracy is around 1 gram, but in the 1960's we didn't dare think (let alone mention) metric in this country.  I tried looking up the specs of the current models, but couldn't find anything.

The wheel and hub were both heavy in one spot, but since I don't have weights on the hub and wasn't willing to remove material from the wheel, the best I could do was mark the spots and rotate the wheel on the hub to the point where it would show the least imbalance.


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## kevin

projectnut - 

Great information on the bearings, I have added it to my web page.

That finish looks pretty good to me. Very creative use of a blade balancer. I do not have a balancer yet, and looking at the prices on them I'll probably end up making one; right now I'm just winging it. 

So far I am happy with the results I am getting. I checked my test piece (surfaced on two sides) on my surface plate, and the sides were parallel all over to within a two tenths. Not bad, I think, for a machine that has not yet been tuned up, and with a very used wheel.

I finally got around to removing my mag chuck from the table, so I could get them both cleaned up. I did a lot of online research on mag chucks, and I have saved the best links here:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder---2

Once I had the chuck cleaned up, I found a serial number on it:



From my research I found the following "facts" which may or may not be correct:

Older Walker chucks (and maybe all older mag chucks) are oil filled.
Newer ceramic magnet chucks are not oil filled (typically a specific grease is recommended by the manufacturer)
Oil filled chucks can "stiffen up" if they are kept upright for a long time; flip them over to allow the oil to lubricate the magnets - this may help the mechanism work more easily
Chucks may lose oil if the seals around the on/off handle are worn. Some chucks have an oil fill hole. For oil, 90W (non-detergent) or way oil is recommended.
Weak magnetic chucks: This may be due to wear in the internal cam mechanism or related parts. Opening up the chuck and repairing this may rescue the chuck.
My chuck has an oil fill hole (I think). There is an open threaded hole on one end; I didn't think it would hurt to squirt a little Vactra-2 into the hole. I also flipped the chuck upside down and worked the on/off handle a few times; it seemed to help. I closed up the oil (?) hole with a screw to keep crud out.

An alternate explanation for the "oil hole": Some chucks have an adjustment screw to stop the internal mechanism from sliding past the optimal position. There could have been an adjustment screw in the hole at one time.

Finally got some new wheels in. Next step is to grind in the table and mag chuck.


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## Bob Korves

kevin said:


> Next step is to grind in the table and mag chuck.


After we purchase and clean up our often old and neglected surface grinders, the usual next step is to grind in the table and both sides of the mag chuck.  It is also about the most difficult job we can attempt on a surface grinder, and is often attempted by those with enough skill to get the machine up and running, but with essentially no surface grinding experience at all.  Been there, done that. 

It probably makes the most sense to not get too hopeful of what you will achieve the first time you try it -- while pushing for perfection.  We also need to have learned how to properly dress and true the correct type of grinding wheel, and need to have a good coolant system before trying it.  The last thing we need is knowing and accepting when all is not well when testing our results as we proceed.  Been there, disappointed and wanting to keep grinding until it is right.  It won't happen.  Until the machine is correct geometrically, table and carriage gliding smoothly on flat ways, the correct type of wheel mounted and dressed properly for the job, and the operator using the correct methods, it will probably not come out well.  Don't keep grinding hoping things will get better.  Stop, regroup, test things some more, study how real surface grinder pros approach the job, and if things do not get better, STOP, and look in the nearest mirror at the real problem behind the failures.  Making sparks on a surface grinder is very easy.  Making things flat, smooth, parallel, and with a good surface finish over the entire table and both sides of the chuck takes real skill and knowledge.   There is no magic to it, and it is not trivial.

Consider it good enough for the time being and go on to making smaller and less critical parts as nicely as you can, to a very high standard of size, flatness, parallelism, and surface finish (all at the same time!) to get real world practice on expendable pieces.  Aim for perfection.  That can be done on a less than perfect chuck.  After doing plenty of smaller jobs, and you feel better about achieving predictable results, go back to the table and chuck and give them a dust grind with everything as good as it can be.  It will likely go much better, and will not remove much material while doing it.

Another cause of poor results is tightening the chuck too tight to the table.  Yes, they are perhaps half inch bolts and nuts, but they only need to be a smidgen more than finger tight, or you will warp the table and the chuck, sometimes creating real, permanent damage.  If I twist hard with my fingers, I can loosen my chuck hold down nuts.  Yes, the table stays put.  Then do lots of accurate measuring and planning before grinding in those large surfaces.  Success will come with time and practice and knowledge.  With the correct attitude, it can all be fun and useful.
Edit: My table and chuck are still not where I want them to be...


----------



## Andy Pullen

Ok. The Williams wrench came today. The nut came off the end of the spindle. Left hand threads. That’s what I was expecting. The Sopko puller easily removed the wheel adapter. No rust on the spindle nose. Looks brand new. I measured it. 1” on the big end, .700” on the small end. 1.312” length. My calculator is telling me that the taper is 2.7439” per 12”. That seems like a really odd size. I used a dial caliper to take the measurements. The taper length was measured with the depth attachment on the caliper. 
I might just send the adapter to Sopko for them to verify my numbers.


----------



## kevin

Bob - 

I appreciate the good advice. I seriously considered not grinding in the table and chuck, but I decided to go ahead with it because the machine had been neglected for some time. Fortunately the machine was stored in a (relatively dry) pole barn, but there was some rust on the chuck fence (which was also improperly mounted), and nothing has been cleaned for a good while, so there was a considerable crust of hardened grinding sludge. Worst of all, the surface of the chuck is pretty rough - I don't think the previous owner ever ground it in.

I'll certainly take your advice and be cautious, and take my time. I feel that if I can do even a moderately good job, it will be an improvement.


----------



## Bob Korves

Andy Pullen said:


> Ok. The Williams wrench came today. The nut came off the end of the spindle. Left hand threads. That’s what I was expecting. The Sopko puller easily removed the wheel adapter. No rust on the spindle nose. Looks brand new. I measured it. 1” on the big end, .700” on the small end. 1.312” length. My calculator is telling me that the taper is 2.7439” per 12”. That seems like a really odd size. I used a dial caliper to take the measurements. The taper length was measured with the depth attachment on the caliper.
> I might just send the adapter to Sopko for them to verify my numbers.


Are you measuring the length of the tapered surface or the center line length of the taper?


----------



## kevin

Andy - 

Your taper measurements are similar to mine - allowing for measurement errors I am guessing that we have the same taper (approx TPF = 2.7). If you decide to send your adapter to Sopko, I'll be interested to see what number they come up with.

FYI Sopko told me that if I sent them my adapter to inspect, they would only need it for 1 day, and I would get it back pretty quickly. They gave me a ballpark figure for a custom item of about $450 (note this ballpark figure is without looking at my adapter, so the actual number could be more or less). I had it in the back of my mind that if I could find other Sanford owners with the same TPF, we could maybe get together and do a larger order, on the assumption that Sopko could make 5 or 10 cheaper per adapter than if they just set up for a one off.  However, I have not asked Sopko if this is in fact the case.


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## Andy Pullen

Bob Korves said:


> Are you measuring the length of the tapered surface or the center line length of the taper?



I’m measuring the taper from the small shoulder on the large end to the face of the small end as close to parallel to the centerline as I can.


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## kevin

Can't answer for Andy, but I made my measurements per the diagram below from Sopko, where length L is measured along the centerline.


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## Andy Pullen

kevin said:


> Can't answer for Andy, but I made my measurements per the diagram below from Sopko, where length L is measured along the centerline.
> 
> View attachment 270237


That's what I used.


----------



## projectnut

kevin said:


> projectnut -
> 
> Great information on the bearings, I have added it to my web page.
> 
> That finish looks pretty good to me. Very creative use of a blade balancer. I do not have a balancer yet, and looking at the prices on them I'll probably end up making one; right now I'm just winging it.
> 
> So far I am happy with the results I am getting. I checked my test piece (surfaced on two sides) on my surface plate, and the sides were parallel all over to within a two tenths. Not bad, I think, for a machine that has not yet been tuned up, and with a very used wheel.
> 
> I finally got around to removing my mag chuck from the table, so I could get them both cleaned up. I did a lot of online research on mag chucks, and I have saved the best links here:
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder---2
> 
> Once I had the chuck cleaned up, I found a serial number on it:
> View attachment 270201
> 
> 
> From my research I found the following "facts" which may or may not be correct:
> 
> *Older Walker chucks (and maybe all older mag chucks) are oil filled.*
> Newer ceramic magnet chucks are not oil filled (typically a specific grease is recommended by the manufacturer)
> Oil filled chucks can "stiffen up" if they are kept upright for a long time; flip them over to allow the oil to lubricate the magnets - this may help the mechanism work more easily
> *Chucks may lose oil if the seals around the on/off handle are worn. Some chucks have an oil fill hole. For oil, 90W (non-detergent) or way oil is recommended.*
> Weak magnetic chucks: This may be due to wear in the internal cam mechanism or related parts. Opening up the chuck and repairing this may rescue the chuck.
> My chuck has an oil fill hole (I think). There is an open threaded hole on one end; I didn't think it would hurt to squirt a little Vactra-2 into the hole. I also flipped the chuck upside down and worked the on/off handle a few times; it seemed to help. I closed up the oil (?) hole with a screw to keep crud out.
> 
> An alternate explanation for the "oil hole": Some chucks have an adjustment screw to stop the internal mechanism from sliding past the optimal position. There could have been an adjustment screw in the hole at one time.
> 
> Finally got some new wheels in. Next step is to grind in the table and mag chuck.



I would agree with at least statements 1 and 4.  I have 2 permanent magnet chucks.  A Walker 6" x 10", and a Brown & Sharpe 5" x 10".  Both are oil filled and both have oil ports on the bottom.  At least in the Brown & Sharpe the oil level is above the pivot point of the handle. When I first got it the chuck was low on oil.  When I added some it started to leak at the handle so I had to replace the seals.  I had to disassemble it to replace the seals so I cleaned the interior and put in the proper amount of oil before putting it back together.  I was surprised how full the cavity was.  Even with the chuck in the upright position the handle and cam mechanism are still covered.   

I originally purchased the Brown & Sharpe to use on my vertical mill to cut down horizontal mill arbor spacers.    I reground both sides at the local technical college when I was using their machines to determine which would be the best fit for my shop.  I have not had holding problems with either chuck.  Statement #5 sounds reasonable, but as mentioned both my chucks are working fine.  On larger parts I generally put a piece of paper between the part and the chuck to make removing the part easier.  Without the paper the parts often stick to the chuck and have to be slid toward the operator to overcome the wringing effect of the smooth surfaces.  I have scratched the chuck on occasion, but the paper eliminates that problem.

When grinding smaller parts I of the use magnetic parallels like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-...519292?hash=item3d69a66bbc:g:Gb8AAOSwqN5bJ~gK

Often times the parts are small enough they only span one or two magnet lines on the chuck so I use the parallels to increase the number of lines of magnetism passing through to the part.  Each line of magnetism through the blocks is weaker than those directly on the chuck, but the increased number of lines through the part holds it more securely.


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## kevin

I ran across some instructions sheets from Walkeron installing/grinding magnetic chucks, which I have added to my web page of surface grinder references ( https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder---2 ), or you can find it here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BXqRw-9YIyDaATXkFzvsJ806N8fnx01w/view?usp=sharing

I also ran across a statement on the Walker Magnetics site stating that 90 weight gear oil should be used in their magnetic chucks (at least those that use oil!).

I might have added an item 6 to my list, but I have my doubts about it: A person on a knife-making forum ( http://www.sablade.com/forums/showthread.php?2230-Magnetic-chuck-maintenance ) makes this claim: "A magnetic chuck needs to be left in the “on” position permanently while not in use. Cover the entire top surface of the chuck with a suitable magnetic material (sheet metal works well), to ensure that the chuck is “working” all the time. 24/7, 365."  I've never seen this opinion any where else. True or false?

I've tried to find "official" (from the manufacturer) magnetic chuck maintenance information online, without success.


----------



## kevin

Interesting problem(s):

Doing some test setup today in preparation for a possible table grind. I set up an indication on the spindle to see what the table looks like before grinding. Measuring from left to right, I got a deflection of about 0.001 (one thou). Measuring from back to front, with the back set to zero, I got an indicator rise of 0.010 (ten thou). Those seem like awfully big numbers for a surface grinder.

Then, I  installed a new 7" wheel. But with the spindle lowered as far as it will go, the wheel is still about 3/4" above the table! Not going to do much table grinding with that. (see picture)

So - what do the experts advise?

Remove the guard and install an oversize wheel just to grind the table?
Leave well enough alone and just grind in the magnet?
Other?
Scratching my head here - am I missing something?


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## Dabbler

On my grinder, my mag chuck is much thicker than yours.  Is it possible that your is missing  the lower part of a 2-part chuck?

In any event I would build a nominal 1" riser, surface grind it to parallel and use longer bolts to bolt the chuck through to the table.


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## projectnut

Are you sure the ways and mating surfaces on the table are free of debris and burrs?  In one of their publications Sanford recommends removing the table and cleaning the ways on a weekly basis to prevent wear.  I haven't followed that recommendation to the letter, but over the years I have removed the table a few times for cleaning.  Occasionally I did find grinding debris that had to be wiped out.  

With the table removed I would check to see whether the ways and/or table are worn.  If they are it may be time to rescrape or replace the ways.  Also in one of their publications Sanford stated on some machines the ways are replaceable.  I don't know when that started or what models it applies to.  If your ways are replaceable it might be time to talk to a local grinding shop to see if some new ones can be made. 

 I would think it's also possible to have the table and or ways reground.  The previous owner of my Sheldon lathe had the bed and cross slide reground.  I have the paper work from the company that did the job.  They certify that both surfaces are within .0002".  On their website they advertise closer tolerances if necessary.

If you find the ways and table's to be in good condition I would shim the chuck as close to .0000" as possible then dust grind it insitu.  If you are removing .0005" or less per pass you should be able to do it dry.  There is a video from Suburban tools where the owner dry dusts a chuck on a Reid grinder.


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## kevin

I've done a bit more investigating on my table grind issue. I did inspect the ways before I put the table on, but it was just a visual inspection - I don't have the right tools to do any useful measurement.  My Sanford MG is 50+ years old, so naturally there is going to be wear pretty much everywhere, but I don't see the ways wearing 10 thou on just one end.

My magnetic chuck is approximately  3.1" high (note to Dabbler - lower part is definitely there). However, with the mag chuck removed, the top of the table is about 3/4" lower than the grinding wheel at it's lowest point. I measured the thickness of the mag chuck with a micrometer at the front and back edges, and found the back is about 10 thou thicker than the front. The table is 10 thou lower at the back, so it's pretty clear that the mag chuck was simply put on the table and ground flat relative to the wheel. 

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the table has been this way since the machine left the factory, because I don't think 10 thou of wear on the table is probable, especially when covered with a mag chuck. My conclusion is that while there must be wear on the ways after 50 years, that is not the reason for the 10 thou "slope" in the top of the table.  If I ground the top of the table flat at this point, I would have to grind off 10 thou in some areas, and then when I put the mag chuck back on, I would have to grind off a compensating 10 thou there too. This does not seem like a good idea to me.

I have concluded that the best course of action is to replace the mag chuck on the table as is, and then grind in the top of the chuck. I may also check to make sure there is good surface contact between the bottom of the mag chuck and table, as shown in this video : 



  (Shadon HKW checks for contact with Dykem, mating the surfaces to see how they contact; then he scrapes/polishes to get good contact).


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## Dabbler

-- My mistake.,, I can't see well on my laptop and inferred you couldn't grind the *magnetic chuck*   very sorry.  I'm pretty sure they don't grind the table base, My Browne and Sharpe still has milling marks on the table, and mine reads around .003 end to end - but it doesn't matter at all.  Only the final grind really matters... 

I checked with my Tool and Die maker friend, and he isn't surprised by your ten thou, but confimed it won't matter...


----------



## kevin

Dabbler - Thanks for the update. That gives me some confidence that I am moving in the right direction. I just did the Dykem contact test  - not horrible, but also not great, so I have a bit of work to do there.


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## projectnut

I doubt the machine left the factory with the table .010" high in one corner.  Keep in mind at the price of this machine in the 1950's it would have been sold to a professional shop.  No grinding shop would accept a machine that far out of tolerance.  As a point of reference the spec sheet that came with my Sheldon lathe certified that the from the factory the bed ways would be less that .0003" out,  That's on a machine that 's expected to produce parts in the +/- .001 range, not the +/- .0001" range.

If you look at the 1953 brochure you'll see Sanford advertises in large bold letters that the machines are inspected before leaving the factory.  In the right hand column the list the specs for the table as less than .0001" in the transverse and longitudinal directions.  They also list the spindle as being less than .0002" out of parallel with the table.

It is possible somewhere along the line someone has changed out parts.  My machine has different gearing on the spindle down feed, and I would also bet the spindle cover is not original.  Fortunately my machine came from a working shop.  It had been used in a professional situation until I purchased it.  I was able to run it and test the results.  I knew when I purchased it everything was within tolerance.  When I disassembled my machine to move it I removed the spindle column from the machine.  It took quite a while to reinstall it and get the parallelism correct.  It's possible at sometime in its life your machine was also disassembled for transport and the owner wasn't very careful when reassembling it.  Rather than spend hours trying to correct the problem they may have just decided to grind the chuck to match.

If you truly want the machine to operate as it was designed I would investigate either loosening or removing the column for inspection.  It's not the easiest job in the world and can be frustrating to have to do it multiple times to get things back to spec.  In the long run I think you'll be a happier camper if you find and correct the problem rather than take the same route as the previous owner.


----------



## kevin

projectnut - 

Just to clarify, it looks to me like the entire table surface is tilted down about 10 thou at the back. I made a quick drawing (below) to show what I mean. You may well be right about some previous owner of my machine. It must have an interesting history since it was made in 1956; who knows how many owners it has had in the last 62 years, and what they did to it. The only owner I know about is the one I bought it from - he didn't use it much at all, and was not all that interested in precision grinding as far as I could tell.

I've watched a couple of videos on surface grinder re-builds - scraping the ways, re-aligning, etc. I've no doubt my machine would greatly benefit from a similar treatment, but it's way above my skill level, even if I had the necessary tools. I think this leaves me with my current plan: Re-mount the magnetic chuck and re-grind the chuck surface to get it flat and in plane with the wheel. My goals with this machine are to learn the basics of surface grinding, develop some skills in that area, and do some useful work in my shop. I don't expect to be grinding parts to tenth thou precision with this machine, so hopefully it will meet my modest requirements.


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## Bob Korves

kevin said:


> projectnut -
> 
> Just to clarify, it looks to me like the entire table surface is tilted down about 10 thou at the back. I made a quick drawing (below) to show what I mean. You may well be right about some previous owner of my machine. It must have an interesting history since it was made in 1956; who knows how many owners it has had in the last 62 years, and what they did to it. The only owner I know about is the one I bought it from - he didn't use it much at all, and was not all that interested in precision grinding as far as I could tell.
> 
> I've watched a couple of videos on surface grinder re-builds - scraping the ways, re-aligning, etc. I've no doubt my machine would greatly benefit from a similar treatment, but it's way above my skill level, even if I had the necessary tools. I think this leaves me with my current plan: Re-mount the magnetic chuck and re-grind the chuck surface to get it flat and in plane with the wheel. My goals with this machine are to learn the basics of surface grinding, develop some skills in that area, and do some useful work in my shop. I don't expect to be grinding parts to tenth thou precision with this machine, so hopefully it will meet my modest requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 270471


I would do a LOT more measuring of the geometry of all the major parts of the machine to see what is really going on with it.  Sure, you can grind the chuck in flat and that will work until you again need to remove the chuck.  When you put it back on, any small amount of skew to the mounting will make the geometry horrible again.  A lot of material will need to be removed when what is ordinarily required is just a light dusting.  This is a really good time to learn about the sequences of how to map the machine as it is, followed by corrections in a specific order, using the reference plane of the grinder to qualify all the machine parts in the proper succession.  Not doing so is probably how it got to where it is now, if that is in fact true...


----------



## projectnut

I guess I'm in the same camp as Bob Korves.  Then again I spent some 40 odd years resolving problems and making design changes on existing machinery as well as designing and building new machinery.  I learned early on (fortunately from others) that sometimes taking the shortcut could come back to bite you in the  A**.  To me the challenge (and fun) would be to find the core reason why the table is at an angle to the spindle, and why it wasn't resolved by a previous owner.  Personally I would feel some pride in resolving a problem that had either stumped or eluded others.

I'm sure there is some wear on the ways and table, but I seriously doubt it's .010".  I have a Seneca Falls lathe that was used by my wife's grandfather for over 40 years in a prototype shop.  The machine was run another 40 years in her fathers wood working shop, and I have had it in my shop for another 20+ years.  I wouldn't even venture to guess how many hours are on the machine, but you can bet it's in the many thousands if not hundreds of thousands.  The ways on this machine have places where they are worn in the neighborhood of .010".  It isn't a linear thing, but rather where a section where the carriage ran for the majority of it's working life.  I would expect the same type of wear pattern on the ways of your machine.  More like a dip in the ways where most work was positioned, not a continuous linear slope from front to rear

If I were to make a (somewhat educated) guess as to the source of the problem I would look to the spindle column and its mounting to the machine base.  I know from experience that if the two were ever separated they can be difficult to reorient to within the original specs.  As I mentioned in an earlier post I spent the better part of a couple days cleaning, deburring, and reshimming the column to get it properly positioned. 

In my case I didn't realize the column was shimmed  until I had the machine disassembled.  Once the shims were on the floor it was all but impossible to know exactly where they came from.  At least I did have a clue as to how much was required.  Then it was a matter of cleaning, assembling and measuring to determine where they should be placed.


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## kevin

It did occur to me that the column might be tilted slightly with respect to the ways on the base. I understand that the column should be exactly perpendicular to the crossfeed ways, and the wheel should be parallel to the longitudinal ways, but how do I go about measuring/determining this?


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## Bob Korves

kevin said:


> It did occur to me that the column might be tilted slightly with respect to the ways on the base. I understand that the column should be exactly perpendicular to the crossfeed ways, and the wheel should be parallel to the longitudinal ways, but how do I go about measuring/determining this?


Start here:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/connelly-on-machine-tool-reconditioning.41802/
The chapter on surface grinders is the last one, chapter 30, page 482.  It is based on, but does not repeat, the previous 29 chapters.  You cannot do a truly successful job of getting a machine correct if you do not understand the theory, process, testing, and proving, all done properly and in the correct sequence...


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## kevin

Bob - thanks for a great reference; looks like a goldmine of information. I'll definitely be taking a look at it. 

Any chance you also have a link to a book on surface grinding?

P.S.

Looks like that book has good information on scraping as well - something I'd like to try some day.  So double thanks.


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## Bob Korves

kevin said:


> Bob - thanks for a great reference; looks like a goldmine of information. I'll definitely be taking a look at it.
> 
> Any chance you also have a link to a book on surface grinding?
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Looks like that book has good information on scraping as well - something I'd like to try some day.  So double thanks.


Glad if I might have been helpful, Kevin.  Machine Tool Reconditioning is often called the bible of machine rebuilding and scraping.  It is becoming dated since it is from 1955, and the illustrations are not so beautiful, but still, there is a ton of useful stuff in there.  It is also not quick, easy, and light reading, having been written by a machine tool repairman, not by a seasoned author with strong communication skills.  Still, it is highly useful to have as a reference guide.  I have read it twice all the way through, and have read several portions multiple times more.  I don't know of other literature on fairly modern surface grinder repair and reconditioning.  There are some posts in various places on the internet where you can find the opinions of others, like here.  This forum is great because it is interactive and people tend to care about each other here.  Be careful to vet any information you get with multiple expert sources before trying anything that might cause you more work in the long run, or even ruining a machine.

Sorry, I do not know of a good book or articles on surface grinder operation, sometimes it seems to be a secret community out there.  Hobby Machinist is a fine place to ask for advice.  Try to vet your sources to those with lots of hands on hands on experience doing varied work.  I do not fit into that category...


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## projectnut

There are several good books on grinding available.  Most cover the fundamentals of multiple types like surface, cylindrical, centerless, and tool and cutter grinding.  Unfortunately most are in textbook style and available only in paperback or hard cover versions.

I have this one:  https://www.amazon.com/Grinding-Technology-S-F-Krar/dp/0827302088/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1530022181&sr=1-2&refinements=p_27:S.F.+Krar

It has about 45 pages on the basics of surface grinding.  It's a good book, but I would look for it at either a public or engineering school library before making a purchase.  The prices for these types of books seems to have risen considerably in the last few years.  When I bought mine it was at an almost give away price of less than $25.00.  I checked a couple online vendors today and most are asking $60.00 to $135.00 for a used copy.  The newer versions are going for considerably more.

This is the least expensive 1994 edition I've found:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Grinding-T...905630&hash=item21373080a3:g:UjsAAOSwmRFaX97Z
I haven't read or purchased it so I can't vouch for its contents

I have attempted to read Connelly's book on Machine Tool Reconditioning on several occasions.  It's full of excellent information, but it's also a hard read.

Fortunately I have the inspection tools required for the process.  I'm not sure I would have been interested in purchasing my grinder if I also had to purchase all the inspection tools at the same time.  Most of my equipment was purchased used over the years from my former employer or local shops.  The most expensive part by far would have been to purchase a 24" x 36" surface plate.  I was lucky to find a Challenge brand one from a local shop.  The plate was originally owned by my employer and sold to the shop when the company closed down it's machine shops.  Rather than paying nearly $4,000.00 for a new one I was able to pick it up for what I would consider scrap prices.  I have not had it recertified, but it's last certification was in 2016.


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## projectnut

I forgot to add in my last post I did get back to the used equipment dealer last weekend.  I picked up the hub he had.  Unfortunately it was the only one of that size.  He did have some smaller ones, but I have no idea what machine they fit.

As for the one I did pick up it isn't identical to the one I have.  This one has an ID of .656" on the small end and .998" on the large end.  It will slide over the spindle, but doesn't seat back as far as the one that came with the machine.

I was considering ordering a slotted nut for the end of the spindle so I measured the threads.  Apparently 1/2-13 left hand thread is a common size.  Mine is 9/16-18 left hand.  It looks like I'll be making some nuts if I want a spare, or happen to need one in the future.


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## kevin

projectnut - my spindle thread is also 9/16-18. I don't know if that is common to all Sanford MGs or not.


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## kevin

About books: I'm on a limited budget, so I try to find free-to-download books if at all possible. Our local library is part of Michigan's inter-library loan program, so I can borrow (for free) pretty much any book in any large Michigan library (I'll look for the book you cited).

Meanwhile, I found this book online: 

Advanced Grinding Practice : [1915] Douglas T. Hamilton and Franklin D. Jones, 344 pages.

I'm listing that book, and any others I come across on my web page here:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/my-surface-grinder---2

For a list of good free book sources, look here:

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/useful-links#booksfree


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## kevin

A brief update on my Sanford MG surface grinder:

As I mentioned earlier, I found that the table surface on my grinder had a "tilt" of about 3 thou; the magnetic chuck had a compensating tilt of 3 thou. After debating with myself as to whether to try to correct this, I decided to leave well enough alone for the time being and just clean up the surface of the magnetic chuck. I also made some new chuck clamps, as the old ones were basically hacked together by some previous owner (and also interfered somewhat with the handle for the magnetic chuck). 

I'm the first to admit that this surface grind is not great - you can clearly see a periodic wheel bounce pattern (I don't have a wheel balancer yet). I should also note that the few large dings you see in the surface were not caused by me - they were there when I got the chuck. In fact the whole surface was pretty rough when I bought the machine - I don't think the previous owner ever ground it in.

Sitting on the chuck is a fixture plate I picked up at an estate sale. It had been milled flat by whoever made it, so I decided to surface grind it as a test piece. I ground both sides, and checked it on my surface plate; I found a variance over the entire surface of about 5 tenths. On the one hand, 5 tenth is not exactly super-duper for surface grinding, but considering that the piece was only my third attempt at surface grinding I'm happy with the result.

At this point I think I have the machine working well enough that I can now work on improving my technique, work on balancing and dressing the wheel, and just basically learning the fine art of surface grinding.




Here's are pictures of the new chuck clamps I made - that's the on/off handle for the magnetic chuck in the middle; the tightening bolt for the clamp is hidden under the handle.



Here's the other clamp, showing the hex bolt for tightening more clearly. It's hard to see in the pictur, but there is a gap under the hex nut of about 1/8" - not much but enough to clamp down the mag chuck. I also had to make two new T-nuts.


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## Bob Korves

Your table magically changed from .010" out to .003" out.  I don't understand that, but it is moving in your favor!  I think you are smart for doing what you did to get you to this point.  Grinding in the table and the top and bottom of the chuck correctly are probably the most difficult and challenging jobs you can do on a surface grinder, and being a novice and not clearly understanding what works and what does not, doesn't help a bit.  Just use it for a while, but do more than merely making sparks.  Be self critical of everything you do, and spend spare time thinking and studying what the issues, problems, and solutions might be.  You are already making parts more accurate than most milling machines ever do, so pat yourself on the back and celebrate!

Maybe we talked about it before, but do not tighten the chuck down tight.  It should be just the slightest bit tighter than finger tight at the right end, and just finger tight at the left end.  That way you will not warp the table, which is easy to do.  Don't worry, the chuck will not move...  Wait, your nuts are pretty small, use a wrench, but with perhaps a light pinky pull...

Grind some oddly shaped parts just for the experience of learning.  You cannot grind a nice, shiny part if you cannot hold it safely and without clamping pressures that can make the part come out distorted.

Congratulations on your progress, Kevin.  I am still a rookie, too, but making gains and becoming more consistently mediocre...


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## kevin

Oops - error on my part! I should have said a "tilt" of 10 thou, not 3 thou.  In any case, thanks for the encouragement. You did mention earlier about not tightening the chuck down too much, and I was careful to follow your advice.

Obviously I've still got a lot to learn, but at least I can now get some actual grinding experience (and work my up to mediocre!).


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## Bob Korves

Try indicating the top of the coolant containing rail around the table and see what the runout shows there with table travel.  I have no idea how a table could be ground .010" out from left to right.


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## projectnut

Bob Korves said:


> Try indicating the top of the coolant containing rail around the table and see what the runout shows there with table travel.  I have no idea how a table could be ground .010" out from left to right.




The top of the coolant rail on my Sanford MG is a painted surface.  There are a few places where the paint has worn off and you can see a rough machined surface.  The rail isn't finished nearly well enough to be trusted as an indication of table position.


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## Bob Korves

Could also try to indicate the bottom of the table if there is sufficient access along one of the sides.
Edit:  The .010" out really bothers me that I cannot say how it might have been caused, except perhaps at the factory.  I would be all over it, if for no other reason than to see if whatever caused it may be causing other issues.  I really have no idea how that could happen on purpose, post production, much less by an accident.


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## kevin

My Sanford MG is 60+ years old, and I don't have a real history on it, so no telling who did what to it over the years. For the time being, I am going to take the position that as long as I can get the top of the magnetic chuck flat with respect to the grinding wheel, that will be OK for now. I'm going to be grinding non-critical test/practice pieces for a while, so I expect that if there is a deeper problem it will show up soon enough.

On my initial grinding-in of the mag chuck, I got the measurements below on the surface. I took 3 sets of four measurements back to front, right to left; the top row is the back of the chuck surface, measurements are given in tenths:

0_________-15_________-15_________-15_________ -15

3_________-9_________-8_________ -11_________ -10

0_________-11_________-12_________ -11_________-11

I set the 0 for the above measurements at the back left of the table. Cleary there is a problem at the left edge of the table, but overall I would rate is as neither great nor horrible, but definitely in need of improvement. I decided to take one more attempt, taking the lightest possible cuts, and also taking much more time (I think I got a bit impatient with my initial grinding in, and went a bit too fast).  After this second grinding-in, I got the much improved numbers below, and I am going to call this good for now. 


0__________1__________2_________ 3_________1 

-1_________2_________-2_________2.5_________0.5

0__________0__________1__________0_________0


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## projectnut

First off are you using the spindle or the housing as the mounting point of the indicator stand?  I tried using the housing the first time but found it didn't have a fine enough finish.  The painted surface was uneven enough to give different readings.  Just the pressure of the indictor point on the chuck was enough to cause the magnetic mount to shift slightly.  

I am using an .0001" indicator that seems to be sensitive enough that a slight breeze could change the reading.  When I removed the guard, wheel and hub there was enough room to mount the magnetic base directly on the spindle.  Also I didn't let the point slide across the table.  I set both the spindle and indicator at the 0 point at the left rear corner.  Then I raised the spindle one full turn (.050 on the scale) and repositioned the table.  The second test was at the right rear of the table.  This corner measured .0002 lower than the left rear corner.  I again raised the spindle and moved to the right front corner.  This corner also measured .0002 lower than the left rear.  The final corner to be measured was the left front.  Using the same method this corner measured .0000.

In summary the table on my machine is currently .0002 lower on the right side than the left.  To be sure the measurements were accurate I did the entire procedure 6 times.  There was never any more difference than .0001 from the baseline.  I did clean the table with a dust free rag and made sure it was properly secured to the table.  The bolts are only slightly more than finger tight.  I didn't use a torque wrench, but from experience I would say they are torqued to between 10 and 15 psi.  As a test I did tighten them around 40 psi.  It made an appreciable difference in the readings.  The .0002 readings ballooned to as high as .0025.  Before I ended the day I once again retorqued them to about 10 psi and the .0002 readings returned.

I'm sure given enough time and effort I could achieve .0000 across the board.  However since the spindle dial increments only go down to .0005 I think .0002 is close enough for my purposes.  If you refer to the factory specs 1953 sales brochure) for the table longitudinal and transverse error they were both a maximum of .0001 from the factory.   I think .0002 after 64 years is acceptable.


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## Bob Korves

Note that testing the mag chuck by mounting an indicator holder to the spindle area and then traversing the table back and forth and front to back underneath it, does not say anything about how flat the chuck top surface is.  If the ways are worn more at the ends (very common), then the table may quite possibly be sagging down on the ends of its travel.  The middle, however, will show a very good reading, because you are only checking it at one of the points that supports the table.  This spherical geometry is common to find on surface grinders and milling machines.  To get a more realistic reading, put 5 blanks, perhaps the size of a coin, on the chuck, one in each corner and one in the middle.  Then grind them carefully and evenly, and then measure them for thickness.  Compare that with what you got from the test with the indicator attached to the spindle.  Another way to do it is to take the chuck off the grinder and test it mounted on a surface plate, with any rock in the corners shimmed up.  Of course, then you will need to grind it again when you reinstall it on the grinder.  A REALLY good straightedge can also be useful for testing.  Sometimes ways will together be "twisted" from left to right, which can show odd results at the corners of the chuck.  Never assume that the ways are flat, parallel, and co-planar over their length, instead test for it.


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## kevin

projectnut - I tried using an indicator stand on the spindle housing, but ran into the same problems as you. I ended up making a custom indicator holder which mounts directly to one of the screws for the housing cover. I did run the indicator ( a tenths indicator) over the chuck surface, but I found that I could get repeatable readings by tapping the indicator holder lightly with a pen to help reduce hysteresis error. Raising and lowering the indicator as you did is a good idea; I'll try that the next time I make measurements.

Oxtoolco did a video on the 5 block test: 






I'll give it a try - should be good practice for me.


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## kevin

OK - five block test completed. Here are the results, with the blocks arranged as follows (where the top is the back of the table):

#1_________________________#2
______________#3_____________
#4_________________________#5

After grinding both sides, I measured each block with a Mitutoyo micrometer as follows (in inches):

#1 = 0.60315
#2 = 0.60275
#3 = 0.60280
#4 = 0.60280
#5 = 0.60290

Setting block #2 as zero, the difference in the blocks in tenths is:

#1 = 4.0
#2 = 0
#3 = 0.5
#4 = 0.5
#5 = 1.5

I'm not sure what's going on with block #1, but I'm pretty happy with these results overall.


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## Dabbler

There are all kinds of ways to have #1 that far off...  even a small piece of dust or grit can cause it...  You have excellent results for any machine.

Congrats on a great find!


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## LAmachinist

Recognizing this is an old thread, I wanted to add information about my Sanford MG grinder.  It has been in the family for many decades - originally in NJ.  The machine has a standard 3TPF spindle taper, 9/16-18 LH threads, and uses a slotted spindle nut (which I will replace shortly with a hex nut style from Sopko).  The wheel adapter that came with it uses a right hand thread, which is incorrect for the rotation direction of the spindle. I am not sure if that was original to the machine or whether someone 'used what they had' at some point. The only modification I have done is to add a coolant pump, nozzle, and a gooseneck light.   Despite looking somewhat worse for the wear, the machine is surprisingly accurate. 

Serial number is 151-312M, suggesting it is from 1951.  I do not know what the 'M' signifies. 

I am unsure about the spindle bearings - once the wheel hub was removed and the 'dust cap' that is set screwed to the spindle was removed, I don’t see any evidence of bearings - just something that looks like Babbitt in the spindle housing.  I am not yet sure if this is a 'cap' or whether this machine could have had plain bearings.  

Anyone have experience with these machine spindles?  Can I be sure that there are ball bearings in there somewhere?


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## kevin

Never too late! From this source:

"Serial numbers can be divided into four series, Early, Intermediate, Late and Final. The first Model SG grinder made carried the identifier AA1 - the earliest machine known so far in this series being No. A62 - and No. 475 the highest. By 1945 the Intermediate series of numbering had been introduced with the first two digits now indicating the year of manufacture and the last four the machine number - the earliest and latest of this series so far discovered being, respectively, No. 45731 (machine No. 731 made in 1945) and No. 511421 the highest; sometimes a dash is found stamped between the year and the machine number. In mid 1951 the Late series began when a prefix digit "1" was added, Machine No. 1511471 being the earliest so far discovered."

Which would mean your machine is now the earliest 1951 machine discovered. My own guess is that the M indicates the MG model, and I note that your machine is marked at the top as a Model MG.

I do not know if any of these machines were manufactured with babbitt bearings but that seems unlikely to me. If your spindle used babbitt bearings it would need to have some means of oiling the bearing, and there does appear to be an oil cup in one of your photos.  I have only seen photos of a handful of MG models, and none of them have that oil cup. Did Sanford make some machines with babbit bearings?  Did somebody retrofit your machine? Your guess is as good as mine (maybe better!). I'll be interested to hear if you find out for sure one way or the other.

In case you have not already seen it, my web page has a bunch of links to Sanford info:









						Academy of Lagado - My Surface Grinder - 1
					

Sanford MG-612 Surface Grinder - and Related Resources Includes info on the Harvey Butterfly LG8-12 Surface Grinder [4/14/2018 - create page]




					sites.google.com


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## projectnut

A I noted in an earlier post my Machine was built a little later than yours with a manufacture date of 1954.  When the "dust cap" is removed there is a bearing seated about 2" farther into the housing.  You'll need a light to see it.  The bearing has an identification number  of 205ZZ etched into the race.  205 is a standard size 1" ID bearing.  I believe the suffix ZZ indicates it's a higher class bearing than the more common ones used in an automotive application .  It's been some time since I've looked into the spindle, but as I recall Sanford used what they referred to as part # SG E-15.  There is also a note in the manual  mentioning spindles prior to serial #151-5100 must be replace due to the discontinuation of spindle bearings E-14.

As for the hub it is quite possibly the original.  Mine also has a right hand thread.  If you use a washer with a retaining tang between the nut and the wheel the right hand nut will work fine.   I've put in the neighborhood of 100 hours on the machine, and never had a problem with the nut coming loose.  Having said that I also have another hub with left hand threads.  They both work equally well.


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## LAmachinist

Thank you for the replies - lots of good information here and on the links you provided!  I had seen a generic manual that mentioned the change in bearings and possible unavailability of the old style bearings.  I have also put many many hours on this machine, and have had almost no problems with the right hand wheel adapter.  Still, I don’t like it when something is 'not right' and since this is a hobby I have the luxury of fiddling around to improve the machine.   I ordered a few left hand hubs since, with a standard taper, they are relatively inexpensive.  

I just started to look closely at this machine, and careful disassembly and inspection will have to wait until I am finished rescraping my milling machine.  I don’t want both machines down at the same time.  

Just to be clear - I did remove what I believe to be the 'dust cap' and rather than seeing set-in bearings, I see what looks like a white metal sleeve or cap that I do not see any way to remove (pictures attached showing the components lined up).  This sounds different that what you describe projectnut.  Once I finish up my other project, I will take off the spindle assembly, have a closer look, and let you know what I find.


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## ljwillis

Hi All,

Another Sanford MG owner here, just joined the forum and have only had the machine for a couple of weeks and am cleaning it up and figuring out what needs repair (which seems to be everything...)  
Mine has a serial number starting "168" so I guess 1968 is year of manufacture.  Found it here in NJ for ~$700 which was arguably too much money but I like the design and size of this machine despite its poor condition.  

I posted in the machine rebuilding/scraping thread asking if anyone knew where to find a 6 2/3 TPI elevation leadscrew (square thread profile at that.)  Does everyone else have 3:1 gearing on the downfeed and 6 2/3tpi screw?  

I would also love to hear any info on the spindle design.  I haven't taken it apart yet because it seems to be the only thing that's OK on my machine, but I'm concerned about a sound I hear when I turn it by hand and anticipate needing to service it.  Runout is nonexistent and it doesn't get too warm, but it doesn't spin as freely as I would expect it should.  That makes me fear that someone may have increased the preload to try to make up for bearing wear or somehow otherwise messed things up.
I take it that the entire casting is the spindle housing?  There's a small piece that I would hope is only a dust cover on the back of the spindle held by two screws.  That's not retaining the bearings is it?  


Also, what does this oil cup lubricate?  I would think the vertical ways, but it's over the spindle and proximal to the leadnut.


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## ljwillis

Also, was there anything special about the original motors on these?  I was skeptical about a single phase motor on a surface grinder, and the worn out Sears & Roebuck replacement motor the previous owner put on mine certainly reinforces that bias.  I've got it apart and am replacing the bearings, but ultimately I'll be upgrading or replacing.
Is everyone still running single phase, or did anyone switch to 3-phase and if so did you see a meaningful improvement in vibration/surface finish?


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## projectnut

Post #22 shows the top of the column of my machine with the oilers.  As for motors Sanford offered their earlier machines either with a factory supplied motor or a customer supplied motor.  If I recall correctly mine has a single phase 110/220V 1/2 hp Hoover brand motor.   Later machines could be ordered with a 110/220V single phase motor, aa 220/440 3 phase motor, a 110V DC motor, or a specialty motor requested by the customer.  With the proper wheel and technique I can achieve a mirror image on most materials.

I'm not sure of the purpose of the oil port shown in the picture.  I don't believe my machine has that port.  I'm currently out of town, but will check when I return home.  It looks as though it might be directly over the Y axis feed screw end bearing.

There are a number of other threads that can be searched using the words: Sanford MG.


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## benmychree

I cannot imagine that oil port would serve the spindle, hidden from view as it is, easily neglected, but then again, the surface grinder that I ran in my apprenticeship had the oiler fairly well hidden behind the side of the wheel guard; while replacing and scraping in the new plain bearing spindle bearing, I asked the foreman about mounting the drip feed lubricator in a higher and more prominent location; he was rather negative regarding the suggestion until I told him that no journeyman who showed me how to run it had shown me the oil cup, and I had never filled it for some time after I was regularly operating it; with that, I made a bracket to mount the oil cup in a highly visable location, with an brass engraved plate with instructions as to what oil to use.  This was 1 16 X 72" Mattison surface grinder with 20" wheel and 15 HP at one's command.


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## ljwillis

projectnut said:


> Post #22 shows the top of the column of my machine with the oilers.  As for motors Sanford offered their earlier machines either with a factory supplied motor or a customer supplied motor.  If I recall correctly mine has a single phase 110/220V 1/2 hp Hoover brand motor.   Later machines could be ordered with a 110/220V single phase motor, aa 220/440 3 phase motor, a 110V DC motor, or a specialty motor requested by the customer.  With the proper wheel and technique I can achieve a mirror image on most materials.
> 
> I'm not sure of the purpose of the oil port shown in the picture.  I don't believe my machine has that port.  I'm currently out of town, but will check when I return home.  It looks as though it might be directly over the Y axis feed screw end bearing.
> 
> There are a number of other threads that can be searched using the words: Sanford MG.



I would appreciate you taking a look when you get home, thanks.  My y-axis doesn't have an end bearing, it is supported by the nut. The y-axis/crossfeed nut oiler is under the table, which is rather absurd.  
It could be for the downfeed nut, but it's off center so that would imply I would find an oil groove in the underside of the nut block and a hole in the nut.  I will investigate.  
I would have hoped they'd have made provisions for lubricating the vertical ways without removing the cover - that may explain the modification on your machine.  It's possible it does both, but I haven't found oil running out anywhere.  Then again, one of the oil holes on the longitudinal table didn't daylight in the oil groove, I had to drill it out.  I can only imagine that was a manufacturing error, though _all_ of the oil cups were packed with grease and grit and needed to be blasted free with compressed air.  

Regarding the motor, that's good to know that a good finish can be had with a single phase motor.  It shouldn't be a problem with good bearings and a well-balanced motor since it's a belt drive.  However, is there any kind of rubber washer under the motor acting to insulate the motor vibration from the mount casting?  My motor's bearings are shot, for sure, but I was measuring 20um vibration amplitude of the spindle housing with an indicator mounted on the crossfeed table pointed up and resting on the wheel guard.  That same measurement on the Harig 618 I've used at work was more like 2-4um.  Despite that vibration I managed a decent finish off the Sanford but not without some work changing feed rate in spark-out to cancel the chatter.


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## ljwillis

benmychree said:


> I cannot imagine that oil port would serve the spindle, hidden from view as it is, easily neglected, but then again, the surface grinder that I ran in my apprenticeship had the oiler fairly well hidden behind the side of the wheel guard; while replacing and scraping in the new plain bearing spindle bearing, I asked the foreman about mounting the drip feed lubricator in a higher and more prominent location; he was rather negative regarding the suggestion until I told him that no journeyman who showed me how to run it had shown me the oil cup, and I had never filled it for some time after I was regularly operating it; with that, I made a bracket to mount the oil cup in a highly visable location, with an brass engraved plate with instructions as to what oil to use.  This was 1 16 X 72" Mattison surface grinder with 20" wheel and 15 HP at one's command.



It's incredible what some folks will do when designing machines - I wouldn't want to suggest that perhaps Mattison knew it wouldn't get oiled and they'd have plenty of business rebuilding spindles, but it's also hard to believe that such an important oil cup would be hidden away.  On the Sanford, the crossfeed nut oiler requires you to remove the table to access it!  While in principle that means that the operators are regularly removing the table to clean and inspect in addition to lubricating, in practice it means the thing never gets oiled and the screw and nut show the wear to prove it, as do the longitudinal ways which were missing their oil cups altogether.


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## LAmachinist

Interesting.  I just looked at mine (a 1951 machine) and it does not have that oiler.  Please let us know when you figure out where it feed to!


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## kevin

lj - 

My Sanford does not have that oiler at all. Just a guess, but I assume it is for oiling the vertical ways; it looks factory installed, but it might have been added by some previous owner. 

The motor on my Sanford is a 110V Marathon "Farm Duty" motor - obviously not the original motor. Also obviously nothing special about the motor, but I don't have any problem getting good surface grinds. Some people recommend taking the motor (with pulley attached) to a motor shop and having it "precision balanced" but I have never done this. I would say just make sure your belt, pulleys, and bearing are in good condition and see what kind of finish you get before you start spending money to fix what might not be a problem.

Info on my Sanford here:









						Academy of Lagado - My Surface Grinder - 1
					

Sanford MG-612 Surface Grinder - and Related Resources Includes info on the Harvey Butterfly LG8-12 Surface Grinder [4/14/2018 - create page]




					sites.google.com
				




Info on Sanford's generally here:









						Academy of Lagado - My Surface Grinder - 2
					

References and Tutorials for Surface Grinders - All Makes Note: This web page is for information on surface grinders generally. For information specific to Sanford MG and Harvey LG surface grinders see this




					sites.google.com


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## projectnut

Just got home and took a look at the Sanford grinder.  Mine does not have the Gits oiler behind the elevation screw.  Mine is an earlier model made in 1954.

As for lubrication on the X and Y axis there is a grease fitting about 3" behind the Y axis hand wheel.  There is also a grease fitting about 6" behind the X handwheel.  This one greases the rack and pinion for the X movement.  There are 2 Gits oilers over each of the Y ways.  One just in front of the table, and another just behind the table  There are also 2 gits oilers mounted on the front of the table.  One for each of the X axis ways.

The motor most likely came with bearings that could be oiled at each end of the shaft since there is a removable plug over each bearing.  When I got the machine one of the motor bearings was making noise.  I removed them to find sealed bearings.  I replaced them with identical sealed bearings.

In post #6 of this thread are some pictures of my machine.  The first one shows the oilers for the Y axis in front of the table, the grease fitting on the Y axis feed screw, and the oilers mounted on the front of the table for the X axis ways.  The second picture shows the grease fitting under the table on the X axis shaft for the rack and pinion.

In the manual I have (mostly related to the SG grinders) there is a maintenance schedule.  That schedule recommends removing the table on a weekly basis to clean and oil the ways and feed screws.  10W-30 oil is recommended for both the ways and feed screws


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## kevin

I use Mobil Vactra #2 on my machine. Elsewhere I have read that using detergent motor oil on machine tools is not recommended - I'm not enough of an expert to know if this is true or not, but I figure it makes sense to use a lubricant designed for machine tools. My machine has gits oilers for the ways, but no grease fittings anywhere. My machine does not have any oilers on the top - I just reach around behind with a pump oiler.


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## HarryJM

Not sure if anyone has mentioned the Vintage Machinery site as it has some publications for Sanford.
http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=10678&tab=3


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## projectnut

kevin said:


> I use Mobil Vactra #2 on my machine. *Elsewhere I have read that using detergent motor oil on machine tools is not recommended *- I'm not enough of an expert to know if this is true or not, but I figure it makes sense to use a lubricant designed for machine tools. My machine has gits oilers for the ways, but no grease fittings anywhere. My machine does not have any oilers on the top - I just reach around behind with a pump oiler.



That was true of the earliest of the detergent oils.  The detergent would cause the oil to foam is cases where it was agitated like a gear box.  Detergent oils have been the standard for at least the last 40 years. 

I've mentioned this in previous posts, but it is still worth repeating.  The company I worked for designed and built food production machinery.  The machines ranged in size from smaller than a bread box to over 2 stories high and 200 feet long.  We had a lubrication engineer on staff to be sure the machines would get the proper lubricants to allow them to maintain productivity through their expected lifespan.  The expected lifespan of almost all machines was 250,000 hours.  That's 24 hours per day, seven days per week, fifty weeks per year for thirty years.  They were shut down for 2 weeks per year for scheduled maintenance.  Obviously there were some unscheduled breakdowns, but by in large they did run as scheduled.  In all cases where there was no product contact automotive lubricants were recommended.  That included detergent motor oils and gear oils.   

I have had discussions with retired engineers formerly employed by Sheldon, Gisholt, Cincinnati, and Kearney & Trecker. Almost to a person they feel current day motor oils are far better than the machine oils recommended from the 1940's thru the 1960's. I have even had the person from Sheldon recommend replacing all formerly recommended machine lubrication oils with current day SAE 10W-30. I have followed their recommendations on all of my machines. I do still have a couple gallons of Vactra #2 way oil I use on the milling machines, but other than that I use current day single or multi viscosity motor oils. I've had some of the machines over 20 years with no ill effects.


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## Dabbler

@projectnut is (hopefully) putting to rest the religious wars over 'my lube is better than your lube' argument.

The ONLY thing I have to add is that for surfaces that drip, like vertical ways on mills or veeways on lathes, way oil is stickier, and runs off slower.  

As long as you keep a film there, it doesn't really matter what you use as today's oils are very well engineered.  This is why I switched to iso 32 hydraulic oil for almost everything, including all my gear boxes. It has much better lubricity than conventional heavy gear oil.  Why?  because it was 1/3 the price of way oil and available in 5 gal buckets.


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## projectnut

A little off topic, but in my post #6 I noted that a set of table stops for my machine (built in 1954) originally listed for $430.00.  At that time their version of "table stops" was a system entirely independent of the table itself.  If you look at more recent versions of the machine as in Jpigg55's post #33 you'll see the more traditional T slot on the front rail of the table and the stop mechanism mounted to the table carriage.


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## ljwillis

Mystery solved - the oil cup on top of the spindle housing is in fact for the ways.  

I use Mobil Vactra #2, as well, but it's good to know 10W-30 works!

Took the downfeed screw and spindle out today.  After I replaced the motor bearings, balanced the pulley, and replaced the belt there was still too much vibration.  The race of the front spindle bearing was burned up. It looked like someone went crazy with grease and I suspect they also cranked down on the nut to increase preload as wear compensation.  I hadn't run it long enough for the spindle housing to come up to temp, but the spindle nose was getting quite hot.   It's a little frustrating that the spindle work needs to be done at the machine since the shaft prevents you from taking the casting out.  I'm thinking I'll freeze the spindle to shrink it, and shoot a torch through a copper pipe sitting in the mounted bearings to get it back together without destroying things.  Took a chance on some N.O.S. Timken 2M205WI bearings on eBay, seemingly the only ones that weren't out of their bags on a dirty table for a photoshoot.   
When it's all said and done I guess I bought a mag chuck, a casting, and a spindle shaft haha.  That's the risk, but this is all part of the fun, right?  

By the way, kevin, I want to thank you for taking the time to put together your website.  I found it when I was trying to decide on buying this grinder and it was a tremendous help!  It's easy to be a passive user of the internet, another thing to be an active contributor.  Seeing the details of you moving the machine really gave me the confidence to take the leap.  This thread was a big help, too.


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## LAmachinist

LAmachinist said:


> I am unsure about the spindle bearings - once the wheel hub was removed and the 'dust cap' that is set screwed to the spindle was removed, I don’t see any evidence of bearings - just something that looks like Babbitt in the spindle housing. I am not yet sure if this is a 'cap' or whether this machine could have had plain bearings.


Just to follow up on this: I pulled the spindle today and it does indeed use ball bearings.  The solid metal insert that I had found under the set-screwed-on dust cap appears to be another cap that had been press fit into the housing. The inside of this additional cap is threaded (for no apparent reason) and I believe this must have been an addition to the machine - purpose unknown.  Perhaps to provide a dam to keep spindle oil from dripping out? (my machine had an oil cup added to the top of the spindle, so the bearings were running partially under oil).






Since I will now be working on this machine, can anyone tell me about the raised cap that is on the rear of the spindle (the one held on by two screws, and that can be removed once the pulley has been taken off? The inside of this cap is threaded, but I dont understand why.


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## keeena

I picked up a Sanford MG just over a year ago. At the time I just had an immediate need to make some valve shims in custom thickness, so I gave it a quick clean up but that was about it. Now I have some real projects and I'm finding there's a bit of chatter. Lots of good info to start with so I won't bog down this thread until I get stuck.

Anyway, I wanted to post up a pic, serial number, etc... There have been a number of questions in this thread and I think most are answered, but please bump if there's anything I can help with. Mine does have a single oiler on the top of the column and a couple inside the column on the dovetails (as well as a bunch elsewhere).

Serial is 1611891M, so looks to be one of the newer ones in the H-M collection (1961, machine # 1891). It came with an Enco (Spain) chuck and a couple of Sopko wheel adapters. Also has the wrap around guard which is a bit harder to find.







In case its helpful: the spindle seal on mine is a Garlock Klozure, 63 x 36 9  I believe this means a model 63; I couldn't find details on the rest of the part #.



Picked up this Magnetool chuck recently - its fine pole so it has a bit better grip than the Enco.



Very tough to get a picture of it, but if you look at the full size picture you can see the slight ripple (chatter) where the lighting transitions at ~4.5cm and 7.5cm on the scale. This is with a 32A46 Norton wheel; material is 4140 normalized.


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## kevin

keeena - Thanks for the info. If you would care to share, I'd be interested in knowing what you paid for it, and what "accessories" came with it (mag chuck, wheel adapters, wrenches, etc.)

Do you know if the splash guard is original with the machine, or where someone fabricated along the way? Either way, it looks well made and is a real nice-to-have.

Regarding the slight ripple on the grind: I see a similar pattern on my machine. The motor on my machine is not the original balanced motor; it is a standard off the shelf "farm motor." I have been wondering if this might be part of the reason for the ripple. On the one hand, I was thinking that any motor vibration would be dampened by the belt, but on the other hand I thought that Sanford would not have supplied a balanced motor unless there was a good reason. I also tried running my motor with the belt off, to see if I could detect any vibration - if there was any, it was not detectable by just "feel".

Another reason for the ripple may be that I have not balanced my wheels, other than by dressing them. I'm working on making a wheel balancer, so if I ever get that done maybe I will see a difference. In the meanwhile, while the grinds I am getting are not perfect, they are more than good enough for my purposes.


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## keeena

Last year (May 2020) I believe paid either $400 or $500; definitely no more than that. It came with the base, Enco mag chuck, 2 Sopko wheel adapters, the Sopko wrench & puller, 2 diamond-nib dressers, and a few grinding wheels (one used, 3+ new). IMO this was a fair price. I attend machinery auctions here/ there and feel you could get a better built 6x12 machine in the same price range. However, that takes time and condition can be all over the map. This Sanford popped up 15min from my house on CL.

_I needed some valve shims for a race bike and due to pandemic shutdowns they were on 3+ month back-order from England. I do have standard shim kits but the exhaust? valves on Triumph D675 engines use half-shim sizes which are only available from Triumph.  Just a few would cost nearly $60. So like any good tool junkie: I bought a surface grinder instead.    End of tangent. _

Splash guard is OEM. Projectnut mentioned this in another thread from last year and provided a brochure which showed it. My table has a pipe thread provision for a drain, but it didn't come with a coolant reservoir / pump / nozzle.

My motor is OEM, 120v. It was advertised as precision balanced from the factory. It feels relatively smooth and quiet but I've never operated surface grinders before so I don't have a good reference. The belt and pulleys are likely the first thing I'll be looking at. I also have a little play in the Y (up-down) nut, but my understanding is that this is probably normal. I also would like to look at wheel balancing. I tried a couple different wheels and they do the exact same thing. The pattern is very consistent regardless of feed.

The worst problem I immediately found (other than being dirty & somewhat neglected) was a completely shagged Z-axis leadscrew nut (_in-out feed from operators standpoint; would be the Y-axis on a knee mill_). The leadscrew had some minor wear in the middle. Replacement was easy enough to make; I did both the nut and leadscrew since I wanted to change to acme thread.

Original Z-axis nut - yeah, she was a little overdue.



Replacement



And new acme leadscrew vs original


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## kevin

Thanks for the update. Looks like I need to try some wheel balancing.

Nice job on fixing the Z-axis.  I think you paid a reasonable price, especially with the original motor, etc.


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## projectnut

Before balancing anything or tearing apart the spindle try using the machine again on different material, and using a bit different startup procedure.  Start the machine and let it run for between 10 and 15 minutes before trying to grind anything.  This will bring the spindle bearings up to normal operating temperature.  Even though they are supposed to be precision bearings there is always more clearance between the races and balls at room temperature than after the machine has run a few minutes.

I was taught that on days when surface grinding is to be done first turn the lights on in the shop then start the grinder.  Once it's running go about the remainder of normal everyday shop opening procedures.  By the time you have completed the opening procedures the grinder should have run long enough to be fully warmed up.


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## kevin

That's a good tip, and easy enough to try.


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## LAmachinist

Nice work on the lead screw and nut!  

Can you describe or post a pictures of the oiler on the top of the column and the ones inside the column?  I have a much older version and there is no provision that I can find for oiling the column.  I am re-building mine - currently scraping in the column box ways - and would like to see the details of the later MG design to give me some guidance on where to put oilers.


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## keeena

Top of the column has one oil cup about 3" from the side with the Y-axis wheel. I assume this is for the bevel gears. Don't mind the missing Y-axis wheel is for a locking screw.   


The spindle mounting plate has 2 cups; I assume these have galleys to direct oil to the ways



While I was back there snapping Polaroids: this is the OEM 1/2hp 120v motor nameplate



Four oilers for the Z-axis - two on the rear way covers, two on the Z-base in front of the table 
Two oilers right next to each other in the front- middle of the table for the X-axis ways
One oiler for the shaft of the X-axis handle shaft

There doesn't appear to be any provision for lubricating the Z-axis shaft, either lead screw, or the rack.


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## DKMC

Hello, 
I have a question regarding spindle oiling on a 6-12 MG. Mine has a sorta funky oiler with a (once) clear plastic dome that is hinged. I don't see any way to fill it. It's located on the spindle near the column. Any info much appreciated.


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## benmychree

If its like the one that I,ve seen on a B&S SG, it is filled when it is hinged over, then inverted to feed the bearing.


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## DKMC

benmychree said:


> If its like the one that I,ve seen on a B&S SG, it is filled when it is hinged over, then inverted to feed the bearing.


The problem is, it doesn't seem to want to hinge more than 30 degrees, seems spring loaded. I'll have to look at it more closely....


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## kevin

I can tell you that some Sanfords do not have a spindle oiler, and some do. It may be that some Sanford owners added an oiler on their own. I have not been able to confirm that Sanford ever had a factory installed oiler. My Sanford does not have an oiler.

Here are a couple of links which discuss the topic :

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...uestion-b-s-2-surface-grinder-spindle-217939/
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/looking-for-spindle-oil-replacement.85411/

FWIW - My (very) amateur machinist guess is that you need something like this Mobil Velocite #10.

You can get it in quart size, which for an amateur machinist is probably a lifetime supply.


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## projectnut

There is no mention of spindle oilers in any of the Sanford publications I've come across.  My 612 was built in 1954 and uses sealed bearings rather than requiring spindle lube.  Over the years I'm sure many spindles have been rebuilt.  The rebuilders may have chosen to use open bearings and adding a lube system.


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## kevin

Projectnut - I know of two Sanfords with spindle oilers, and they are two different types of oilers. I think you are probably right that Sanfords with oilers are modifications of the original - nothing wrong with that (might even be an improvement).


----------

