# Restoration of BMW R69s engine



## malmac (Oct 7, 2020)

Well I am not sure how this projects area is supposed to work, but here is my best shot.
I am in the middle of restoring a 1960's vintage BMW motorcycle engine.
The engine has been worked on before and the bike was previously involved in a major crash, so the frame is not the original frame.
All in all the old girl has been through the wars though I have seen other bikes that have suffered a much worse fate.
Here is a few photos of work to date to get started. Given you are reading this I like pictures and I am going to assume that you do too.

Disassembling the engine - These engines were carefully assembled, often using interference fits on parts. So while the design of the engine is quite simple, working on them does require a selection of pullers and other special tools. I took my time with the disassembly, taking measurements on runout and tolerances.
The following pics give you a bit of an overview on what has been done so far.

Thanks for taking the time to have a look.

Mal


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## malmac (Oct 7, 2020)

The crankcase is now empty and one of the tasks is to make a couple of custom studs to replace the standard studs because of damage/wear. I inherited the wear but inflicted the damage.

The text on the photos pretty much explains what I have been doing.

Mal


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## C-Bag (Oct 7, 2020)

I had a ‘72 R75/5 with a  Vetter fairing. I loved that bike, especially the incredible engineering. When i saw the header I had to check because if it was a BMW car I wouldn’t care, not at all a fan. The old BMW air cools, very cool. Had no idea it was so heavy on the special tools though. I also was a VW air cool fan and it didn’t take a 1/10 the specialized equipment.


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## Nogoingback (Oct 7, 2020)

Great writeup: looking forward to your progress.   Are you making all the tools, or have you acquired them?


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 7, 2020)

what a cool project and a beautiful old bike. I didn't realise they were still so art deco into the 60s. Looking forward to more updates and pictures!


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## malmac (Oct 7, 2020)

Nogoingback said:


> Great writeup: looking forward to your progress.   Are you making all the tools, or have you acquired them?



Well I am making most of the special tools but their is a couple of exceptions.
Here is some of the tools I have made so far. There is lots more but here are a few.

Thanks for asking.


Mal


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## malmac (Oct 7, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> I had a ‘72 R75/5 with a  Vetter fairing. I loved that bike, especially the incredible engineering. When i saw the header I had to check because if it was a BMW car I wouldn’t care, not at all a fan. The old BMW air cools, very cool. Had no idea it was so heavy on the special tools though. I also was a VW air cool fan and it didn’t take a 1/10 the specialized equipment.



Yes I had a VW beetle and you are right I rebuilt the engine out of 2nd hand parts and I think I bought a torque wrench.

I also had a R90/6 - well that is a long story.
So looks like we have followed in each others footsteps.
Thanks for having a gander at the project.


Mal


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## C-Bag (Oct 7, 2020)

I bumbled onto the R75/5 as often happened from an airman on nearby Castle AFB. It was almost 10yrld but only had 3kmi on it. All the guy did was ride about 3-4mi to work and back home.  Because of that the pipes were rotted out so he put shorties on it. A Beemer with loud pipes, silly. The bike was not even properly broken in. I put about 5,000mi on it and sold it for more than I bought it. The only bike I ever did that with. The amazing thing was the all Hazet tool roll that came with it. You could almost disassemble the whole bike with that set. I felt like that bike was the pinnacle of German engineering. Simple and rugged.


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## Janderso (Oct 7, 2020)

Nice work!
I love the boxer motor.
I sold my R1200RT when I turned 60.
Best motorcycle I ever owned. I rode bikes all my life Until that dreaded 60.
I don’t regret it. I took up the sport of hobby machining


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## malmac (Oct 7, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Nice work!
> I love the boxer motor.
> I sold my R1200RT when I turned 60.
> Best motorcycle I ever owned. I rode bikes all my life Until that dreaded 60.
> I don’t regret it. I took up the sport of hobby machining ☺



Oh I may be in trouble, I am 67 and still ride my 1200 and working on the 69s for something a bit lighter though definitely not faster.

Mal


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## Janderso (Oct 8, 2020)

Mal,
You obviously enjoy it, good for you.
There is something about riding a powerful motorcycle on a country road when all is right with the world.

When I was a kid I remember my grandfather telling me about riding his Indian. I think the seed was planted.

I had a Suzuki twin 350 as a sophmore in high school. My dad took an R69 BMW boxer in trade.
He said, come on by the store tomorrow on your way to work, I have something to show you.
There before me was this beautiful black motorcycle from the movies. It took my breath away.
I took it out for a ride. The difference between the Suzuki toy bike and the R69 was night and day. The torque was something that took some getting use to.

I was hooked, I told myself there and then, someday my friend, someday.


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## malmac (Oct 9, 2020)

Not all days involve working on an actual part.
Today I worked on constructing a pre-filter housing for the main filter for our new sand blasting cabinet.
Made out of 6 inch diameter heavy duty plastic pipe and other fittings.
Lid screws off so the filter material can easily be removed and cleaned or replaced.

Mal


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## matthewsx (Oct 10, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Mal,
> You obviously enjoy it, good for you.
> There is something about riding a powerful motorcycle on a country road when all is right with the world.
> 
> ...


I had one of those Suzuki TC 305's, two cycle twin people would often mistake for a Honda. Until it took off....

JOhn


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## malmac (Oct 10, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> I had one of those Suzuki TC 305's, two cycle twin people would often mistake for a Honda. Until it took off....
> 
> JOhn



It is terrific to hear about the bike you owned. I have never had a 2 stroke bike. It seems I may have missed out on something special.


Mal


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## matthewsx (Oct 10, 2020)

Not smooth like a BMW, but quick


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## malmac (Oct 10, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Not smooth like a BMW, but quick



So is the model you had?




I had one of these.




"Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end" to quote an old song lyrics.


Mal


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## matthewsx (Oct 10, 2020)

Yep, that’s the bike.


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## Bi11Hudson (Oct 10, 2020)

A "beautiful" machine, the R69s. There was a "friend" that left one in my care when he went to sea. I rode it every week or so, to "keep oil circulating", bearings lubed, or something like that. I had a Suzuki 750j, a water cooled 2 stroke. The "Earles" front end and the shaft drive on the BMW was a handful for me, being used to chain drive models. He didn't have a sidecar, so it handled different from the Zuke. But I never dumped it. . . Even when the machine did a "nose dive" on acceleration. 

A couple years back I saw a Ural with a sidecar. It otherwise was almost identical to the R69s. I have lusted after the BMW since I had my friend's, in 1972 or 73. So I was familiar with the appearance over-all. I "assume" the Ural to be a Russian copy of the BMW from the '40s. Though the Ural wasn't as "tight" or smooth like the BMW. Again, I assume the tolerances were looser to allow easier assembly. So I passed when I saw one for sale. But I sure did want a machine with the Earles front end.

But by the time I had the funds, the R69s were so "antique" they were hard to find. I ended up with a Moto Guzzi ex police bike. It had a shaft drive too, and the V twin ran good. But, Lord, the top end was noisy. I wired it to suit my thinking, and used Japanese controls. That Lucas (Prince of Darkness) electrical system *had to go*. And a (one) piston from, I think, a 1200 CC Volkswagen.

Should you stumble over one, Ural makes a sidecar that is almost a bolt-on to the R69s. With that Earles front end, it looks to be begging for a sidecar. A quick paint job to conceal the Russian ancestry and it would fit right in.

.


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## malmac (Oct 15, 2020)

I purchased a new crankshaft for the bike, however when I put it to the test it is not quite aligned to factory specs, so it will need to be adjusted.
While the crankshaft trueing stand was the first step in assessing the crank, the next step is holding it while I adjust it with my hammer.
Today I machined up some custom blocks to sandwich the crank while it gets an attitude adjustment.
But to make the blocks I first had to make the cutting tool out of some O1 tool steel.
That worked out really good. Admittedly only cutting aluminium. I think the temper would need to be ramped up for cutting steel.

Mal


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## C-Bag (Oct 19, 2020)

The predecessor to my R75/5 was a Suzuki 380. 3cyl 2 stroke.  Pretty much bullet proof like all Suzuki’s. Pretty quick but definitely felt like a toy compared to the Beemer.


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## matthewsx (Oct 20, 2020)

I also had one of these, maybe someday I'll grow up and get a BMW


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## C-Bag (Oct 20, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> I also had one of these, maybe someday I'll grow up and get a BMW
> 
> View attachment 341222


That is the bike that changed everything. 0-60 in 3.5 sec. Never rode one but there were few around. My uncle who was a die hard Harley man rode one of the first Honda V45’s, so went out and bought a Ninja 900. He rode it down and stored it in my garage and gave me the keys. I took it out in the country behind Castle AFB. Insanely smooth,  fast with no feeling of speed. I never even got close to full throttle. Ran it through the gears and looked down and was doing 110. That scared me. Took it home and put it back in the garage.


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## Janderso (Oct 20, 2020)

malmac said:


> It is terrific to hear about the bike you owned. I have never had a 2 stroke bike. It seems I may have missed out on something special.


The Kawasaki 500 3 cylinder (shown above) had a power band that had you holding on for dear life. If we ran Torco synthetic injection oil it hardly smoked at all. If we ran the outboard motor oil, ha, you layed down a smoke screen 
The Kawasaki 900 was ahead of it's time (1978?). In 1980 I had to have the Yamaha XS1100 Special. Black with red specs in the paint. The back tire was massive (for those days) Just don't try to turn or anything.
Brings back fond memories of my youth. I courted my wife to be of 36 years on that Yamaha. She said, "It's the biggest one I've ever seen!"


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## Janderso (Oct 20, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> The predecessor to my R75/5 was a Suzuki 380. 3cyl 2 stroke.  Pretty much bullet proof like all Suzuki’s. Pretty quick but definitely felt like a toy compared to the Beemer.
> View attachment 341213


The pipes are like the Kawasaki. Oh, that's a triple.



Mine looked like this. Except new. eech, drum brakes

They were pretty darn fast!!


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## malmac (Oct 22, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> The predecessor to my R75/5 was a Suzuki 380. 3cyl 2 stroke.  Pretty much bullet proof like all Suzuki’s. Pretty quick but definitely felt like a toy compared to the Beemer.
> View attachment 341213



I am sure I did some work on that model for a friend back in the mid 1970's. The only work I have ever done on a two stroke from memory. I guess this was the fore runner to the 750 water bottle.

Mal


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## malmac (Oct 22, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> I also had one of these, maybe someday I'll grow up and get a BMW
> 
> View attachment 341222



I rode one of these once and crap I nearly killed my self when the beast hit the power band.


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## C-Bag (Oct 22, 2020)

malmac said:


> I am sure I did some work on that model for a friend back in the mid 1970's. The only work I have ever done on a two stroke from memory. I guess this was the fore runner to the 750 water bottle.
> 
> Mal


I rode that 380 for several years and the only thing I did besides lube the chain and plugs was put a set of points in it. I still have the kit with dial indicator you screwed into #1 in place of the spark plug. At a measured point before TDC your continuity tester on the points went off to set timing after setting gap. Having set point gap with a gauge and my timing many times with a continuity light on my VW’s I was familiar with the process. Just not using the DI.

 I have always liked the vehicles best that I fussed with the least. The Bink’s carbs idle on the Beemer drove me nuts. Otherwise once I got it caught up on maintenance it was perfect. With the Vetter fairing it was as comfortable as I ever got on a bike. After one crazy close call I took it as a sign bikes were too dangerous no matter how alert I was and I put it up for sale and it was gone 2 days later. No regrets.


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## HarryJM (Oct 22, 2020)

malmac said:


> I had one of these.
> 
> View attachment 340020
> 
> ...


 
Hey Mal,

Love the look of your vintage BMW (what a classic!) and though you might enjoy my motorcycle adventure so hear it is. I bought a Honda CL350 in Japan on my last 6 month (USN 12/65-11/69) WestPack tour and brought it back on the aircraft carrier I was stationed on.

Getting ready to be discharge end of February 69' and I had two weeks more leave than I could sell back and burned those up riding it up coast from San Diego to San Francisco and then back to San Diego through the mountains and national parks sleeping along side the highway behind some shrubs/etc. This was my first experience riding a motorcycle and I survived it without any damage to me or anyone else.

Then after discharge the last week of February I road it cross country from San Diego to Hialeah Florida which was seven days of freezing my ass off drafting semi's trying to stay warm and sleeping on the ground next to the bike.

One year after discharge I attended a 9 month motorcycle mechanic school just north of Davenport Iowa and worked as a motorcycle mechanic from my mid 20's to mid 30's and then switched careers to data processing. My first motorcycle mechanics job was at a Honda Norton dealership in Davenport and I fell in love with Norton's and owned two of them (750 Interstate and 850 Commando) while wrenching on Honda's. Briefly worked at a Honda BMW dealership in Tampa Florida although no BMW wrenching experience.

I'm really enjoying your rebuild and special tool making as it brings back some nice memories of my wrenching years. I rebuild both of my Norton engines and while not as refined as a BMW they were a pleasure to work on as you could rebuild everything as opposed to Honda parts swapping. About five years after the end of my wrenching days I sold all of my tools and my last Norton for which I had about ten boxes of long neck bottle beer boxes full of new/used parts that I acquired over the years at various salvage yards and dealerships. I sold the bike and parts to a guy that appreciated Norton's and it did my hart good to know that the bike was in good hands.

To me there is nothing like old iron either motorcycles or metal working equipment and looking forward to the rest of your rebuild.

And yes per your quote “though were the days ...”

Harry


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## Janderso (Oct 22, 2020)

I'm trying to find a pic of the 1969-70 Honda 350 Scrambler. It was the dual sport version with knobby tires, black exhaust with upswept pipes on both sides....I think.
I was dreamy over that bike. My best friend's big brother bought it new. We would look at it for hours and dream.


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## malmac (Oct 22, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> I rode that 380 for several years and the only thing I did besides lube the chain and plugs was put a set of points in it. I still have the kit with dial indicator you screwed into #1 in place of the spark plug. At a measured point before TDC your continuity tester on the points went off to set timing after setting gap. Having set point gap with a gauge and my timing many times with a continuity light on my VW’s I was familiar with the process. Just not using the DI.
> 
> I have always liked the vehicles best that I fussed with the least. The Bink’s carbs idle on the Beemer drove me nuts. Otherwise once I got it caught up on maintenance it was perfect. With the Vetter fairing it was as comfortable as I ever got on a bike. After one crazy close call I took it as a sign bikes were too dangerous no matter how alert I was and I put it up for sale and it was gone 2 days later. No regrets.



Hi Tony

I am learning a lot from the posts re the place motorcycles hold in a rider's memory. While we are all different there seems to be an easy friendship between motorcyclists (maybe true for boating folks and golfers - but that is just a guess).
I was a motorcycle training officer for about 15 years and appreciate that to put the bike aside before one gets hurt is wise.
Maybe I'm just not wise - but I ride pretty steady these days.

Mal


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## malmac (Oct 22, 2020)

HarryJM said:


> Hey Mal,
> 
> Love the look of your vintage BMW (what a classic!) and though you might enjoy my motorcycle adventure so hear it is. I bought a Honda CL350 in Japan on my last 6 month (USN 12/65-11/69) WestPack tour and brought it back on the aircraft carrier I was stationed on.
> 
> ...



Harry

I did enjoy hearing your story. Those bike journeys when young just can't be redone. You get a chance to be young once and then it is gone.
Sleeping under railway bridges, old train stations and just on the ground. Your yarn brought back lots of similar memories. I have never worked as a bike mechanic but have learnt by breaking and spending........ ouch.
The guy down the road had a Norton Commando 750 fastback - red - beautiful bike with such a crisp note and visible vibration. I was always a sucker for quiet and smooth - my R1200GS is really great - but as I get older I would appreciate a smaller boxer and with less electrical complexity.

I am at a slow point at the moment with the rebuild. Sorting out a tool to hone my cam follower bores and also how best to tweak the crankshaft to get optimum alignment.

Thanks again for sharing your background with bikes.

Mal


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## malmac (Oct 22, 2020)

Janderso said:


> I'm trying to find a pic of the 1969-70 Honda 350 Scrambler. It was the dual sport version with knobby tires, black exhaust with upswept pipes on both sides....I think.
> I was dreamy over that bike. My best friend's big brother bought it new. We would look at it for hours and dream.



Is it something like this one?


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## HarryJM (Oct 22, 2020)

malmac said:


> .. and visible vibration. ...


Norton had an isolastic suspension system that isolated the engine, gear box and swing arm from the frame which resulted in the engine vibrations almost completely disappearing at certain crusing RPM ranges, although not quite as smooth as a Godlwing.


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## C-Bag (Oct 24, 2020)

malmac said:


> Hi Tony
> 
> I am learning a lot from the posts re the place motorcycles hold in a rider's memory. While we are all different there seems to be an easy friendship between motorcyclists (maybe true for boating folks and golfers - but that is just a guess).
> I was a motorcycle training officer for about 15 years and appreciate that to put the bike aside before one gets hurt is wise.
> ...


Rarely do those who ever experienced the feeling of freedom from riding a motorcycle have bad memories. I rode my bikes as little as possible in town and they were never my main transportation. Having always driven VW’s I lived the “you are invisible” credo. But having lost friends and several musical hero’s to motorcycles I was hyper aware and tried to be smart and always stay ahead of the situation.

My old ‘62 bug’s master cyl. died as I‘d been planning to go see my good friends in San Francisco. So I rode the Beemer in late and stashed it in my sister’s backyard in Daley City and rode the bus. I left at 2pm on Sunday (the usual lull in traffic) and was on the 580 headed for the bridge and did like I always did and got in the middle lane and was keeping with traffic. I noticed we were passing the slow lane like they were sitting still and the pack of cars i was in started feeling claustrophobic so I backed off and got like 4 car lengths and the guy behind me got spooked and backed way off and all the sudden everybody hit their brakes. Everybody in front of me(at least 8 cars) and the fast lane well behind me hit the the cars in front of them. It had to be at least 20 car pileup. I pulled into the slow lane and went around. Up at the front it looked like a big ol Plymouth Belvedere had clipped a Ford Pinto into the center divider and they were both crossways on the fast and middle lanes. I felt it was a sign.

Seeing your great tools and fixtures made me visit whats left of my VW tools. Timing gear puller, deck height gage, spec book I got while at the VW dealership, valve set cutters and my favorite, the Hazet ring compressor. Perfect for air cools where you have to slip the jug on. Just pull the handle out a little and the compressor releases. Works wonderful.


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## malmac (Oct 24, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Rarely do those who ever experienced the feeling of freedom from riding a motorcycle have bad memories. I rode my bikes as little as possible in town and they were never my main transportation. Having always driven VW’s I lived the “you are invisible” credo. But having lost friends and several musical hero’s to motorcycles I was hyper aware and tried to be smart and always stay ahead of the situation.
> 
> My old ‘62 bug’s master cyl. died as I‘d been planning to go see my good friends in San Francisco. So I rode the Beemer in late and stashed it in my sister’s backyard in Daley City and rode the bus. I left at 2pm on Sunday (the usual lull in traffic) and was on the 580 headed for the bridge and did like I always did and got in the middle lane and was keeping with traffic. I noticed we were passing the slow lane like they were sitting still and the pack of cars i was in started feeling claustrophobic so I backed off and got like 4 car lengths and the guy behind me got spooked and backed way off and all the sudden everybody hit their brakes. Everybody in front of me(at least 8 cars) and the fast lane well behind me hit the the cars in front of them. It had to be at least 20 car pileup. I pulled into the slow lane and went around. Up at the front it looked like a big ol Plymouth Belvedere had clipped a Ford Pinto into the center divider and they were both crossways on the fast and middle lanes. I felt it was a sign.
> 
> Seeing your great tools and fixtures made me visit whats left of my VW tools. Timing gear puller, deck height gage, spec book I got while at the VW dealership, valve set cutters and my favorite, the Hazet ring compressor. Perfect for air cools where you have to slip the jug on. Just pull the handle out a little and the compressor releases. Works wonderful.



I think we all have stories of lucky escapes and you sure could have got mangled in that situation. I think riding motorcycles can hone one's intuition. Funny that intuition is a pretty good tool when one gets to the workshop as well.
Like when a bolt just starts to indicate it's not comfortable and one backs out before trouble eventuates.
I would like to claim, I never get it wrong but that is not the case. I seem to get it less wrong and when I do get it wrong I seem to bail out earlier and cause less problems.

Those valve seat cutters look really good. Any pics of them in action or set up for action?

Mal


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## C-Bag (Oct 24, 2020)

I never had a way to take pictures of those cutters in action and haven’t used them for like 30yrs. Sorry. There’s no real mystery to them. They were made to cut the seats by hand, so just put the pilot in the guide and get er done. The reamers and guide drivers are in the box. Those are carbide cutters. They were made to do a 3 angle cut. Far more accurate than motor driven stone cutters especially on imports with small valve stems. I have 8.5mm, 8 and 6.5 pilots. Most times if the engine hadn’t burned a valve it didn’t take any time at all to bring a seat in. The three angles are 46, 15 and 75 deg. Most times I’d rough the  seat in with the t-handle then use the speed handle to finish the 46deg. I was taught to always check the seat with Prussian blue after I was done. Never saw seat grinder do a seat concentric, the weight of the grinder would throw off the cut. 99% of all seats were done with a grinder and I can tell by the sound of the engine if it was done with cutters or a grinder. The ones done by a grinder have this odd hissing sound where the cutter doesn’t. It is a bit more work but worth it.


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## Buffalo21 (Oct 24, 2020)

I have similar looking set, used it when I worked in a Japanese motorcycle shop in the 80s-90s


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## FOMOGO (Oct 24, 2020)

Those look like Neway cutters. I have a pretty good collection of them, and use them with an adapter I made, and a 3/8 drill. They work very well, but not cheap. Mike


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## C-Bag (Oct 24, 2020)

FOMOGO said:


> Those look like Neway cutters. I have a pretty good collection of them, and use them with an adapter I made, and a 3/8 drill. They work very well, but not cheap. Mike


Yup, that’s exactly what they are. I’d not even opened that box in so long I forgot who made them, doh!


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## malmac (Oct 25, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> I never had a way to take pictures of those cutters in action and haven’t used them for like 30yrs. Sorry. There’s no real mystery to them. They were made to cut the seats by hand, so just put the pilot in the guide and get er done. The reamers and guide drivers are in the box. Those are carbide cutters. They were made to do a 3 angle cut. Far more accurate than motor driven stone cutters especially on imports with small valve stems. I have 8.5mm, 8 and 6.5 pilots. Most times if the engine hadn’t burned a valve it didn’t take any time at all to bring a seat in. The three angles are 46, 15 and 75 deg. Most times I’d rough the  seat in with the t-handle then use the speed handle to finish the 46deg. I was taught to always check the seat with Prussian blue after I was done. Never saw seat grinder do a seat concentric, the weight of the grinder would throw off the cut. 99% of all seats were done with a grinder and I can tell by the sound of the engine if it was done with cutters or a grinder. The ones done by a grinder have this odd hissing sound where the cutter doesn’t. It is a bit more work but worth it.



Now it all makes sense. Some of these tools are probably not so easy to find anymore. Looks great.


Mal


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## C-Bag (Oct 25, 2020)

malmac said:


> Now it all makes sense. Some of these tools are probably not so easy to find anymore. Looks great.
> 
> 
> Mal


I’m not sure which tools you’re talking about but Neway is still around and the Hazet piston ring pliers are still being made. They are on eBay. Both were pricey when I bought them in the ‘70’s and are not cheap now. I think I got both of them from an independent tool guy who used to hit the import shops I used to work in.

A couple of months ago a portable line boring machine like I used back in the day showed up on the local CL. VW and Porsche engine main bearings over time would beat into the case and the bearing would not seat properly. So you had to line bore the case. They sold over/under size mains. I would think that is something you’d have to watch out for on the boxer Beemers too.


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## malmac (Oct 25, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> I’m not sure which tools you’re talking about but Neway is still around and the Hazet piston ring pliers are still being made. They are on eBay. Both were pricey when I bought them in the ‘70’s and are not cheap now. I think I got both of them from an independent tool guy who used to hit the import shops I used to work in.
> 
> A couple of months ago a portable line boring machine like I used back in the day showed up on the local CL. VW and Porsche engine main bearings over time would beat into the case and the bearing would not seat properly. So you had to line bore the case. They sold over/under size mains. I would think that is something you’d have to watch out for on the boxer Beemers too.



The old bikes I have, both run roller bearings for the main bearing and bearing carriers that can be replaced. Though what you say could still be a problem under some circumstances. Never say never.
I havent got to rebuilding the heads yet so I may need some valve seat cutters somewhere down the track.
I am glad you showed me yours, I will know what to look for.

Mal


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## C-Bag (Oct 25, 2020)

malmac said:


> The old bikes I have, both run roller bearings for the main bearing and bearing carriers that can be replaced. Though what you say could still be a problem under some circumstances. Never say never.
> I havent got to rebuilding the heads yet so I may need some valve seat cutters somewhere down the track.
> I am glad you showed me yours, I will know what to look for.
> 
> Mal


I never rebuilt any bikes so I’d forgotten they used roller bearings and that’s why you pressed the cranks apart. I think the only time either VW’s or Porsch’s need to be line bored was because somebody was over revving them. Or maybe were out of balance. I only had one of the 7 VW’s that I ran till I went back through it. My last was a ‘66 bug w/factory sunroof. The ‘66 was the only year of the 1300 and it was a one owner when I got it. It had 120,000mi on it and the woman didn’t trust anybody to rebuild it and my dad got it from her for $700. I went through it and it didn’t need line bore, put 120,000mi on it. Even though it was running good w/good compression not using oil I got scared as you never drove a 1500 or 1600 more than 50,000mi without a valve job because they would drop a valve. That 1300 was still all good inside. The case looked like when I first went through it. It’s all about the nut behind the wheel.


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## C-Bag (Oct 26, 2020)

malmac said:


> The old bikes I have, both run roller bearings for the main bearing and bearing carriers that can be replaced. Though what you say could still be a problem under some circumstances. Never say never.
> I havent got to rebuilding the heads yet so I may need some valve seat cutters somewhere down the track.
> I am glad you showed me yours, I will know what to look for.
> 
> Mal


So have you been able to find any experienced boxer engine mech‘s Mal? Like what are common problems? All engines and makers have different problems or common procedures. Like on a VW you always tossed the exhaust valves and replaced the exhaust guides. Same for the cam and followers. Also how is it to get engine parts. Didn’t you mention you got a different crank. How hard was that and to get rings and gaskets etc? Do they toss the exhaust valves and guides? The main reason I sold my last bug was I couldn’t get German parts anymore and at that time Brazil was where all the air cooled parts were being made. I saw first hand like their cranks were cast, not forged like the originals and were junk. My old 1300 crank with 250,000mi was within .0003 of original max. I took a part a 67 for my dad and it was all Brazilian except for the case and only had like 50,000mi and literally had to throw everything but the heads and case away because they were worn out. Never saw that with German OEM.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 26, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> I never rebuilt any bikes so I’d forgotten they used roller bearings and that’s why you pressed the cranks apart. I think the only time either VW’s or Porsch’s need to be line bored was because somebody was over revving them. Or maybe were out of balance. I only had one of the 7 VW’s that I ran till I went back through it. My last was a ‘66 bug w/factory sunroof. The ‘66 was the only year of the 1300 and it was a one owner when I got it. It had 120,000mi on it and the woman didn’t trust anybody to rebuild it and my dad got it from her for $700. I went through it and it didn’t need line bore, put 120,000mi on it. Even though it was running good w/good compression not using oil I got scared as you never drove a 1500 or 1600 more than 50,000mi without a valve job because they would drop a valve. That 1300 was still all good inside. The case looked like when I first went through it. It’s all about the nut behind the wheel.


If I recall correctly the #3 cylinder ran hotter (and dropped valves) because the oil cooler wasn't offset in the cooling shroud so restricted airflow to the the #3. The 1600's had the so called 'doghouse' shroud where the oil cooler was out of the main line of airflow. It's been years since I had my last VW...
(sorry to drop into your thread @malmac!)


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## C-Bag (Oct 26, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> If I recall correctly the #3 cylinder ran hotter (and dropped valves) because the oil cooler wasn't offset in the cooling shroud so restricted airflow to the the #3. The 1600's had the so called 'doghouse' shroud where the oil cooler was out of the main line of airflow. It's been years since I had my last VW...
> (sorry to drop into your thread @malmac!)



But the 1100, 1200, and 1300 all had the old style cooler and as long as you kept the oil and valves adjusted they didn’t drop valves. With the 1500 in ‘67 and 1600 in ‘68/70 besides the larger engine with the same old oil cooler they added smog controls and jetted the carb leaner to pass CA smog. ‘71 came the doghouse cooler and while better it was still prone to dropping a valve because it was jetted even leaner. Probably not as bad up where you are but down here especially in the San Joaquin Valley where you have 100+deg summers it was death. You started feeling like you were sitting on a bomb if you had over 50k, just like the old timing belts.

i too am sorry Mal for derailing but this kinda demonstrates what I was wondering about. Did certain models have defects or were they bulletproof and the factory decided to “improve” them and they got problems?


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## malmac (Oct 26, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> If I recall correctly the #3 cylinder ran hotter (and dropped valves) because the oil cooler wasn't offset in the cooling shroud so restricted airflow to the the #3. The 1600's had the so called 'doghouse' shroud where the oil cooler was out of the main line of airflow. It's been years since I had my last VW...
> (sorry to drop into your thread @malmac!)



I think it's great to hear this background.... I had a 1963 VW Bug, I did a big end on it....... I bought my brother in laws write off Bug from a front end crash. Then I pulled the engine and rebuilt one good engine out of the two worn engines. I had not thought about that job for decades. You have brought back fond memories.   Thanks guys.

Mal


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## malmac (Oct 26, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> But the 1100, 1200, and 1300 all had the old style cooler and as long as you kept the oil and valves adjusted they didn’t drop valves. With the 1500 in ‘67 and 1600 in ‘68/70 besides the larger engine with the same old oil cooler they added smog controls and jetted the carb leaner to pass CA smog. ‘71 came the doghouse cooler and while better it was still prone to dropping a valve because it was jetted even leaner. Probably not as bad up where you are but down here especially in the San Joaquin Valley where you have 100+deg summers it was death. You started feeling like you were sitting on a bomb if you had over 50k, just like the old timing belts.
> 
> i too am sorry Mal for derailing but this kinda demonstrates what I was wondering about. Did certain models have defects or were they bulletproof and the factory decided to “improve” them and they got problems?



You guys are right into Bugs - I had one but I have always been a bike person but things change to some extent. The last couple of days I have had to work on fixing the brakes and bearings on our Toyota Landcruiser. Re machine the rear discs, fit new bearings and seals and replace the handbrake brake shoes. So cars do get a look in.

Mal


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## malmac (Oct 28, 2020)

Got the brakes and bearing finished yesterday and this morning we head off on a field trip for three or four weeks. I won't have much internet in the remote areas, so please accept my apologies for any delays in responding to contributions to this thread.
Unfortunately while away, I obviously won't get any work done on my restoration project.

Cheers  Mal


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## malmac (Nov 18, 2020)

Back in the workshop after a couple of weeks away. Just got started and the return spring on the milling machine gave up the ghost.
So had to fix that before work could go on. Here a few pics of the repair job. These interruptions are the reality.

Mal


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## C-Bag (Nov 18, 2020)

malmac said:


> These interruptions are the reality.


No truer words were ever spoken. I‘ve tried to explain it to my best half that I never can go from step A to step B directly. It feels like I go from A, back around to Z then work my way backwards to B. If it’s not repairing or modifying a machine or tool, it’s something else. In the shops I worked in most times you didn’t repair something you tossed it and hoped it got replaced. It is nice to have the time and wherewithal to fix something instead.

My dad had a ‘74 Landcruiser. It was 4 wheel drum, no disc. It was a tough and rugged beast and was basically like brand new with only 40kmi on it. But it always felt like a collection of parts moving in the same direction I guess because it had no sound proofing and the top and doors rattled like natives beating on a drum when going down the road. The thing used to scare the old man because every time you jammed on the breaks you never knew which way it was going to pull before it settled down. This was particularly scary because they used to pull a 16’ RV trailer all over with it. I thought it was because it was so short wheel base. Even meticulously adjusting the brakes didn’t help.

I was in the final year of my auto degree at college and could do special jobs so I brought it in to see if I could find out the problem. At first my teacher was mad at me because when I pulled of the drums everything looked new with little wear on the massive brake shoes and drums. But on closer inspection I noticed everything looked like it had been dipped in cosmolene. Except for shoe surfaces, but the backing plates, the hardware, even the back of the shoes had that thick grease. So I pulled everything off and cleaned it and found pretty deep grooves in the backing plates where the shoes had rubbed and ground them flat. Put everything back together and for the first time ever you could hit the brakes and it would stop straight without any pulls. Everybody, even my shop teacher was happy.


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## malmac (Nov 18, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> No truer words were ever spoken. I‘ve tried to explain it to my best half that I never can go from step A to step B directly. It feels like I go from A, back around to Z then work my way backwards to B. If it’s not repairing or modifying a machine or tool, it’s something else. In the shops I worked in most times you didn’t repair something you tossed it and hoped it got replaced. It is nice to have the time and wherewithal to fix something instead.
> 
> My dad had a ‘74 Landcruiser. It was 4 wheel drum, no disc. It was a tough and rugged beast and was basically like brand new with only 40kmi on it. But it always felt like a collection of parts moving in the same direction I guess because it had no sound proofing and the top and doors rattled like natives beating on a drum when going down the road. The thing used to scare the old man because every time you jammed on the breaks you never knew which way it was going to pull before it settled down. This was particularly scary because they used to pull a 16’ RV trailer all over with it. I thought it was because it was so short wheel base. Even meticulously adjusting the brakes didn’t help.
> 
> I was in the final year of my auto degree at college and could do special jobs so I brought it in to see if I could find out the problem. At first my teacher was mad at me because when I pulled of the drums everything looked new with little wear on the massive brake shoes and drums. But on closer inspection I noticed everything looked like it had been dipped in cosmolene. Except for shoe surfaces, but the backing plates, the hardware, even the back of the shoes had that thick grease. So I pulled everything off and cleaned it and found pretty deep grooves in the backing plates where the shoes had rubbed and ground them flat. Put everything back together and for the first time ever you could hit the brakes and it would stop straight without any pulls. Everybody, even my shop teacher was happy.



I didnt know you got to enjoy Landcruisers in the US.
Admittedly ours is rather new in an old fashioned way.
But it does the job real nice.
Here we are on our most recent trip out Western Queensland.
Great to hear your experience with those Landcruiser brakes.

Mal


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## C-Bag (Nov 18, 2020)

Oh yeah. Until it came along the standard was the old Willey’s Jeep. If you could hang on and were careful about it’s high center of gravity, it would go anywhere. The originals like dad‘s have gotten kinda rare because like the old VW’s the hot rodders got hold of them and chopped them up. My brother had such with a V8 in it and loaned to a dummy and he rolled it down a hill. To its credit he drove it out of the gulley and home, but there was not a straight piece on it after that. Many of the old ones suffered that fate. The old stock straight 6 while not a power house had tons of low end torque which was quite useful for rock crawling. Dad’s looked exactly like this.


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## malmac (Nov 18, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Oh yeah. Until it came along the standard was the old Willey’s Jeep. If you could hang on and were careful about it’s high center of gravity, it would go anywhere. The originals like dad‘s have gotten kinda rare because like the old VW’s the hot rodders got hold of them and chopped them up. My brother had such with a V8 in it and loaned to a dummy and he rolled it down a hill. To its credit he drove it out of the gulley and home, but there was not a straight piece on it after that. Many of the old ones suffered that fate. The old stock straight 6 while not a power house had tons of low end torque which was quite useful for rock crawling. Dad’s looked exactly like this.
> View attachment 344583


What a great looking unit.
My wife grew up on a property where they had landcruiser utes and has some interesting stories to tell, like when he mum rolled the Toyota two miles from home and she freaked out and ran the two miles home in panic.
Sort of made it hard for me to convince her we needed a Cruiser.

Cheers


mal


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## DavidR8 (Nov 18, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> My dad had a ‘74 Landcruiser. It was 4 wheel drum, no disc. It was a tough and rugged beast and was basically like brand new with only 40kmi on it. But it always felt like a collection of parts moving in the same direction I guess because it had no sound proofing and the top and doors rattled like natives beating on a drum when going down the road. The thing used to scare the old man because every time you jammed on the breaks you never knew which way it was going to pull before it settled down. This was particularly scary because they used to pull a 16’ RV trailer all over with it. I thought it was because it was so short wheel base. Even meticulously adjusting the brakes didn’t help.


This struck a chord with me. I had a colleague who commuted in a vintage Land Rover. Occasionally we'd grab lunch or go to a meeting in it. Reminded me of riding in the box of a dump truck. (don't ask...)... zero suspension compliance, zero upholstery, felt like it had about a 1:2 steering box ratio. Merely thinking about direction change and bang, you've changed lanes. And received a concussion from whacking your head on the door pillar. But it was a gas


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## Nogoingback (Nov 18, 2020)

malmac said:


> I didnt know you got to enjoy Landcruisers in the US.



While we used to have the "classic" Landcruiser for many years what passes
for a Landcruiser here is an overstuffed SUV that's supposed to be a  luxury car with all wheel drive.
They aren't the same vehicle that's sold in Australia.  We visited relatives in Victoria last year and I saw what
you're able to buy: you get the real deal.

I had one of the wagons similar to this.


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## C-Bag (Nov 18, 2020)

Never been in a Land Rover but obviously the Landcruiser was a tip of the hat to that esthetic. All biz, amenities like sound proofing and padding anyplace is for sissy’s. It was a truck. And steered like one. It had no power steering and loose. I felt like a little kid because it had a huge steering wheel. No synchro in 1st gear and stiff shifter. I’m not sure but I think it was 3sp w/transfer case.

It was the biggest tow vehicle we had in the family and I used it to move the 23’ trailer I lived in when I went to aircraft school. Talk about the tail waggin’ the dog! I moved it after school was over from Dinuba to Merced. 4hrs of terror on 99 with the anti sway bar cranked down as hard as I could.


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## malmac (Nov 18, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> This struck a chord with me. I had a colleague who commuted in a vintage Land Rover. Occasionally we'd grab lunch or go to a meeting in it. Reminded me of riding in the box of a dump truck. (don't ask...)... zero suspension compliance, zero upholstery, felt like it had about a 1:2 steering box ratio. Merely thinking about direction change and bang, you've changed lanes. And received a concussion from whacking your head on the door pillar. But it was a gas



Its funny how sleeping in a ditch on a wet night after our vehicle broke down seems to bring more fond memories that many a picnic on a sunny day.
And when one was 20 everything was just more intense than at 60.
Oh well, don't want to get bogged in memory lane without a winch.

Cheers

Mal


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## Janderso (Nov 18, 2020)

malmac said:


> Is it something like this one?
> 
> View attachment 341474


My god, you have done it sir. You have produced the focus of my childish dreams.
Well done


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## malmac (Nov 18, 2020)

Nogoingback said:


> While we used to have the "classic" Landcruiser for many years what passes
> for a Landcruiser here is an overstuffed SUV that's supposed to be a  luxury car with all wheel drive.
> They aren't the same vehicle that's sold in Australia.  We visited relatives in Victoria last year and I saw what
> you're able to buy: you get the real deal.
> ...



Well I think we are all going a bit soft. A friend who's wife just bought a Suburu has all sorts of beeps going off when driving on the gravel road to their property, because it cant find the white lines or imagines the wheel tracks are white lines, or some such thing. I guess most people who can afford a new 4x4 live on a bitumen road and probably don't really need one that often.


Mal


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## matthewsx (Nov 19, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> I also had one of these, maybe someday I'll grow up and get a BMW
> 
> View attachment 341222



Or,,,,









						Welcome To Zero Motorcycles
					

Manufacturer of 100% electric motorcycles for the street and dirt.




					www.zeromotorcycles.com


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## malmac (Nov 19, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Or,,,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think anyone who survived owning a Mach 3 is a hero or at least extremely lucky.
A deadly historic machine.

Mal


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## Janderso (Nov 19, 2020)

malmac said:


> I think anyone who survived owning a Mach 3 is a hero or at least extremely lucky.


The power band on a Mach III is the closest I have ever been to driving a top fuel in the 1/4 mile 
Hang on baby!


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## Joe in Oz (Nov 22, 2020)

Can we get back to the R69S? lol
I have a smaller cousin, the R26, and have done a lot of work on both singles and twins of the era, working at a BMW bike workshop and dealer in the 70s in Germany and then in Melbourne, Australia. Rebuilt a few R69S in that time. Loved them!  Lots of torque for the size, 42Hp was a lot in the 60s - not so much now.... but these engines would run at max power for hours and hours continuously. I one did a 1000km non-stop trip Cologne - Vienna and again non-stop back a few days later on an R50S - never missed a beat and sat on the redline pretty well all the way on the Autobahn. Pretty crazy thing to do, but then I was 18..... now I'm 70.....


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## malmac (Nov 22, 2020)

Joe in Oz said:


> Can we get back to the R69S? lol
> I have a smaller cousin, the R26, and have done a lot of work on both singles and twins of the era, working at a BMW bike workshop and dealer in the 70s in Germany and then in Melbourne, Australia. Rebuilt a few R69S in that time. Loved them!  Lots of torque for the size, 42Hp was a lot in the 60s - not so much now.... but these engines would run at max power for hours and hours continuously. I one did a 1000km non-stop trip Cologne - Vienna and again non-stop back a few days later on an R50S - never missed a beat and sat on the redline pretty well all the way on the Autobahn. Pretty crazy thing to do, but then I was 18..... now I'm 70.....



Hi Joe

The 69s engine rebuild project is grinding on slowly. Here is what the current status is.
1. The reproduction crankshaft I purchased from a supplier in Europe is proving to be a bit of a challenge.
I measured the alignment, the runout and the slide clearance on the big ends. The alignment was 
+/- .625mm permissable misalignment +/- .2mm - well I adjusted the alignment down to less than .01mm
Well that seemed promising but now my runout is .05mm on the front shaft which holds the generator.
Permissable max runout is .02


So I am looking at this situation with a patient mind. The side clearance on the conrod to crankweb should be max .07mm.
Which is what the rear conrod is set at. It seems at a cursory glance that if I press the front journal/crankpin further onto the central web to make the clearance both .07mm then the runout will quite possibly be even worse.
So at the moment I am thinking before I rush in.

2. The second task to undertake is resizing the bores for the cam followers to take the oversized cam followers I have.
I initially thought I would ream the bores using an adjustable reamer. I have never done reaming before so I turned up some brass bushes to match the undersized spec of the bores and reamed them out to fit the new cam followers.
I was not happy with the result. Too much chattering resulted in a sort of corrugated surface inside the bores.
So I investigated a spiral reamer, but it would have to me custom made and the quoted price was $300.
The other consideration was even with the custom reamer I was advised that the surface finish would be inferior to honing.


Enter the P180. I went and met with the suppliers and looked at the price of the P180. Expensive at about $1200 for the complete tool to do the job.
So what I have done is I have just purchased the mandrel and grinding stones and grinding oil.
The current project to make up a tool which is basically a custom universal joint with a threaded adjuster to expand the mandrel to the exact dimension.


So here is the first part to be made. Which is sitting in the lathe awaiting my attention.

So there is the update on the R69s engine.
All comments and suggestions are welcome.
I am not a fitter and turner by trade just someone who likes to have a go and doing it as much as possible in my home workshop.


Mal
Toowoomba
Queensland


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## malmac (Nov 24, 2020)

Bit more work on the adaptation of the P180 mandrel.
Still have to make the yoke.
Some of what you see is mock up to assist me to visualise the next step.




View of the other side showing the cutaways to secure the slide pin.



Here is the part assembled, still missing the drive yoke.





Mal


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## malmac (Nov 29, 2020)

Well today I used the hone tool to sort out the cam followers. The tool worked fine, though it is not idiot proof and care and sensitivity was still required to get a good end job.
I fixed the crankcase in a comfortable position on the engine stand.



I then did about three operations to get to size. Measuring each time I withdrew the hone.



I had turned up a tubular feeler gauge, instead of trying to use the new cam followers.
When the bore was to size I then tested the actual cam follower. Each one now has a designated bore to fit into.




When the fit was satisfactory I was able to move on to the next bore.



Thanks for taking the time to check out my project. I hope it helps you with something you are doing in your workshop.

Mal


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## malmac (Dec 1, 2020)

OK, back to those crankshaft blues..... now there is a sad song in the making.

The next problem was there was too much side clearance on the front conrod. To press the webs closer together I needed some way of holding the crank in the hydraulic press.
So here are some pics of what I have been up too.

Mal


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## malmac (Dec 3, 2020)

I have always felt a bit cheated when I read about the old crankshafts and the response is, "if these needs repair take it to an expert."
Then when you get something from an expert re the crankshaft, the line seems to be generally, well in simple terms the crank is pushed together carefully and it can be difficult and I won't go into the detail here.

Well I found a clip on youtube from a guy who posts under 2stroke stuffing. He has a very informative video on the process for a single cylinder crank.

So I got to reflecting on the previous lack of detail on assembling crankshafts and I now have two options.
1. It is difficult to explain, and yes I do it but I really don't know how to actually explain what I do, but it works (well I can understand now why it is hard to explain - not impossible of course but difficult yes)
2. Maybe for some they assume that if they tell people there secrets, everyone including the dog will be assembling crankshafts and they will be out of business.

Well my comment on the second perspective is; anyone who is going to do it, will do it and learn how anyway and also explaining how it is done is easy compared to the perseverance required to get the job done.
Here is my chart I developed to help me track the incremental steps in just tweaking an assembled crank. I have no cookbook for the complete job, but it would have to have several pages.

I really have to thank 2stroke stuffing for the guidance, it has made a lot of difference to the process.
Well not finished yet but nudging my way towards completion.

Mal


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## C-Bag (Dec 3, 2020)

What a pain! I thought this was a new crank set. And if so that it should be ready to go. Well at least you have the equipment to deal with it. And the machine tools to make what you need. I never had a lathe or mill to make what I needed I just had to bodge something together and try to get a precision result. Thinking back the only shop I worked in that had a real press was in college.


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## malmac (Dec 3, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> What a pain! I thought this was a new crank set. And if so that it should be ready to go. Well at least you have the equipment to deal with it. And the machine tools to make what you need. I never had a lathe or mill to make what I needed I just had to bodge something together and try to get a precision result. Thinking back the only shop I worked in that had a real press was in college.



Yes this is a reproduction crankshaft. Nicely machined but not nicely assembled. I am confident if this had been a genuine BMW part, it would have been ready to fit. But the days of those cranks being available are just a fond memory.

Let me tell you, I could have bought an R69s out of the US sent it to Barringtons for a full rebuild, paid freight and import duty and I would of had money to spend left over Vs setting up the workshop.
But then again some things are not about money. I don't want a pristine bike that is an advertisement for someone else's restoration finesse. I want a bike that I know inside and out. The bike may not be perfect but at least I will have a pretty good idea of why it is less than perfect.

I hope that makes sense.

Mal


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## Tozguy (Dec 3, 2020)

It does to me.


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## C-Bag (Dec 3, 2020)

malmac said:


> Yes this is a reproduction crankshaft. Nicely machined but not nicely assembled. I am confident if this had been a genuine BMW part, it would have been ready to fit. But the days of those cranks being available are just a fond memory.
> 
> Let me tell you, I could have bought an R69s out of the US sent it to Barringtons for a full rebuild, paid freight and import duty and I would of had money to spend left over Vs setting up the workshop.
> But then again some things are not about money. I don't want a pristine bike that is an advertisement for someone else's restoration finesse. I want a bike that I know inside and out. The bike may not be perfect but at least I will have a pretty good idea of why it is less than perfect.
> ...


I feel like I do too. None of my VW’s were showy. The paint often worn, but mechanically they were as good as I could make them. In so many ways my machines around the shop are the same. I fix them to suit me. Don’t worry about the paint, it’s whether it will do what I want. I can’t imagine how much you paid for that crank by your description. I hope you let whoever you bought it from it was NOT up to snuff.


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## malmac (Dec 3, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> I feel like I do too. None of my VW’s were showy. The paint often worn, but mechanically they were as good as I could make them. In so many ways my machines around the shop are the same. I fix them to suit me. Don’t worry about the paint, it’s whether it will do what I want. I can’t imagine how much you paid for that crank by your description. I hope you let whoever you bought it from it was NOT up to snuff.



Hi Tony

I would like to get the crankshaft to with in spec before I consider feedback to the supplier.
It is getting ever closer but it will be the last 10% that takes 90% of the patience - or maybe I am just a natural born pessimist.

Cheers


Mal


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## malmac (Dec 3, 2020)

This is how I have named the locations on the crankshaft which are used in the measurements.
Just for those who are really really really curious..... which I hope for your sanity is none of you fine folk.


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## petertha (Dec 3, 2020)

_...what I have done is I have just purchased the mandrel and grinding stones and grinding oil. The current project to make up a tool which is basically a custom universal joint with a threaded adjuster to expand the mandrel to the exact dimension. _

Just landed on your post, very cool. I was looking at honing tools similar to what you are showing. The price was a show stopper so I had to resort to other methods in my application. But now you have me curious, how did you incrementally set the taper wedge or whatever the mechanism is that expands the stone(s) ever so slightly as you progressively enlarge the bore? I've never seen a Sunnen type machine in real life but on some videos looks like the operator turns an adjustment wheel as its stroking which I assume is pulling or pushing on the wedge?

About how much material did you have to remove from the bore? What grit of stone & how long did it take?


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## malmac (Dec 4, 2020)

petertha said:


> _...what I have done is I have just purchased the mandrel and grinding stones and grinding oil. The current project to make up a tool which is basically a custom universal joint with a threaded adjuster to expand the mandrel to the exact dimension. _
> 
> Just landed on your post, very cool. I was looking at honing tools similar to what you are showing. The price was a show stopper so I had to resort to other methods in my application. But now you have me curious, how did you incrementally set the taper wedge or whatever the mechanism is that expands the stone(s) ever so slightly as you progressively enlarge the bore? I've never seen a Sunnen type machine in real life but on some videos looks like the operator turns an adjustment wheel as its stroking which I assume is pulling or pushing on the wedge?
> 
> About how much material did you have to remove from the bore? What grit of stone & how long did it take?



Hi Peter (I assume)

Here are some pics that I hope will help you understand.
I also balked at the total price of the P180, which is why I fabricated the most expensive part.
I notice in the catalog that grit size ranges from 150 to 600 - 150 to 280 being the most popular in the tooling I was using. That is if I understand the catalog correctly.

I built in a small turn wheel using a 5mm x .8mm pitch thread which I found lifted the stone in a controlled manner.
I did not devise a gauge, I used feel. I kept the stone low and inserted the stone into the bore. I then lifted the stone with the drill stopped but the stone well lubricated with honing oil. When I had some light pressure on the stone in the bore I use a relatively slow speed of approximately 100RPM and moved the mandrel in and out of the bore steadying the tool with my hand.
I then stopped the tool and progressed the stone until again it lightly touched the bore. Repeated the process. It generally took three such applications to resize the bores from slightly over 20.00mm to 20.05mm.
It only took an hour to do all four bores, even with careful measuring and testing and thinking etc.
I don't think they adjust the lift of the stone while the hone is rotating. I think they have to stop the tool, adjust and then recommence. I know I had to.


I hope this helps.

Regards  Mal


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## petertha (Dec 4, 2020)

Aha, I get it now. Your self made collar is acting on the ramps & that extends the stone.
Reason I'm asking is for liners on my model radial engine... well... the NEXT engine I build because this was a bit of a chore. Lapping is quite controlled but such a slow process that requires the bores to be within a thou or so to begin with. I've watched some Sunnen hone vids & that stroking / pseudo-grinding action looks to be a better, more established way of achieving a target bore with better removal rate. But I will never own a machine like that so had some ideas of making one from scratch. Looks like you adopted their fiddly-to-replicate component & worked out how to achieve the radial expansion.

So about how much bore diameter did you remove & what was the native material?

Sorry for the interruption to your post, this has gotten me inspired.


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## malmac (Dec 4, 2020)

petertha said:


> Aha, I get it now. Your self made collar is acting on the ramps & that extends the stone.
> Reason I'm asking is for liners on my model radial engine... well... the NEXT engine I build because this was a bit of a chore. Lapping is quite controlled but such a slow process that requires the bores to be within a thou or so to begin with. I've watched some Sunnen hone vids & that stroking / pseudo-grinding action looks to be a better, more established way of achieving a target bore with better removal rate. But I will never own a machine like that so had some ideas of making one from scratch. Looks like you adopted their fiddly-to-replicate component & worked out how to achieve the radial expansion.
> 
> So about how much bore diameter did you remove & what was the native material?
> ...



Peter

If you were able to make those cylinders then what I did would be a breeze for you.
I think if you had the option of honing in a controlled manner you could perhaps adapt the mandrel to fit into your tail stock without the universal joint and use it more like a drill with an adjustable diameter. The screw adjuster process could work with a slot for adjustment.
The main difference being that the wear pad would not be stabilising because the centre of the tool would be constant and the hone stone would expand out from that centreline. The quill on the tail stock could provide the in and out motion in a controlled manner. I think that is right but correct me if I am mistaken.

I only took out about .03mm. But I am sure more could be removed

Mal


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## malmac (Dec 4, 2020)

Special tools - often with these old bikes the work is very difficult without at least some special tools. I certainly make more special tools than a normal sane person requires, but that is my obsession. Well the penny dropped yesterday as I was upgrading my data collection sheet, that really it is a special tool of the "aid to thinking" category.
I got to a stage where this crankshaft is really playing hard to get. The reason being that instead of the misalignment being aligned to the quadrants it is now slanting across the webs and making my earlier datasheet, not as helpful as it could be. So I have added some larger diagrams which can act as thinking templates, to save me sketching the situation to improve my grasp of what the measurements are telling me.

Mal


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## C-Bag (Dec 4, 2020)

I never had a bike crank apart. Back in the 70’s you could get roller cranks for VW’s and it was more a thought exercise than reality for me. in thinking about what you are up to it almost seems building the crank up from scratch with precision flats to press each “layer” to would be easier than trying to fix a bad assemble.


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## malmac (Dec 4, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> I never had a bike crank apart. Back in the 70’s you could get roller cranks for VW’s and it was more a thought exercise than reality for me. in thinking about what you are up to it almost seems building the crank up from scratch with precision flats to press each “layer” to would be easier than trying to fix a bad assemble.



Tony

I do not have the experience - and maybe never will, so what I say has to be seen as theoretical rather than based on 40 years hands on experience.

1. While it seems that pressing up the crank can be done carefully or less carefully - even so maybe even with much care it is probably not guaranteed that care will result in immediate perfect alignment and runout - though it should mean generally less tweaks needed afterwards.
2. The forces involved in pressing together the cranks is quite high so it is rather easy for the slightest deflection to result in some level of misalignment.

In due course I have a crank which needs a total rebuild so then I will explore turning theory into practice.

Regards   Mal


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## C-Bag (Dec 4, 2020)

To be sure Mal I don’t have the specific experience either. I was just thinking out loud. I can only think this does take a lot of force to press one of these cranks together. And it’s got to be crazy to get all these parts together while exerting so much pressure on the parts already assembled. not trying to second guess you.


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## malmac (Dec 4, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> To be sure Mal I don’t have the specific experience either. I was just thinking out loud. I can only think this does take a lot of force to press one of these cranks together. And it’s got to be crazy to get all these parts together while exerting so much pressure on the parts already assembled. not trying to second guess you.



Tony

I did't think of you second guessing me - I am the sort of person who would spend a month making a jig that would allow me to assemble cranks perfectly. I did see a jig that looked good on Youtube but after they pressed it together, they still had to go through a certain amount of what I have done. That was also just a single cylinder crank. I am blown away by the fact that folks were pressing up 4 cylinder Kawasaki Z1 cranks and getting it all work out....... that is really impressive or should I joke and some compressive.

Mal


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## Joe in Oz (Dec 5, 2020)

Allan Millyard (https://www.youtube.com/user/millyardviper) has some great videos on building crankshafts. He even made a 12 Cylinger Kawasaki engine.... Most of his build videos are quite inspiring, actually.


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## malmac (Dec 5, 2020)

Joe in Oz said:


> Allan Millyard (https://www.youtube.com/user/millyardviper) has some great videos on building crankshafts. He even made a 12 Cylinger Kawasaki engine.... Most of his build videos are quite inspiring, actually.



Joe
Allan is inspiring but sometimes I find he is a bit brief on the technical in depth stuff which a person is looking for when they are building their own flat 12 BMW special.......
Not that I am planning to undertake such a project.

Mal


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## malmac (Dec 6, 2020)

Well I have arrived at a critical juncture. The crankshaft is within the factory specs so now I have ask myself, is that good enough?
There are three measurements that count.
One is to make sure that the centreline through the three crank webs are aligned. Here is the test I learnt from Salis to check the alignment. The spec is less than .02 mm. Here as you can see I have .01mm variation.

Mal
View attachment Mal Alignment.mp4


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## malmac (Dec 6, 2020)

The second test is the runout on the shafts. Unfortunately my video camera was not set quite right, so the runout on the left is partially obscured.
Spec is again less than .02mm - I guess technically I am just right on .02 - so now I have to make a call - is this good enough or do I need to get back to the wrestling match?

Mal
View attachment Run out.mp4


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## Joe in Oz (Dec 7, 2020)

I believe that at our age we have to become a little pragmatic....
Are you doing this to sell as a "factory blueprint standard" concourse quality example of your workmanship, or as a beautiful bike to own and ride?
If the first, then you have mailed it on specs. If the second, how many kilometres did BMW expect these bikes to run for before rebuild? Are you still likely to ride to that expectation? If not, you nailed it too....
Sounds like you are trying to prove something to yourself.....
Finish it, sell it and know you are not cheating anyone, or indeed ride it and admire it in your collection, knowing you won't wear it out.....

Cheers
Joe


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## malmac (Dec 7, 2020)

Joe in Oz said:


> I believe that at our age we have to become a little pragmatic....
> Are you doing this to sell as a "factory blueprint standard" concourse quality example of your workmanship, or as a beautiful bike to own and ride?
> If the first, then you have mailed it on specs. If the second, how many kilometres did BMW expect these bikes to run for before rebuild? Are you still likely to ride to that expectation? If not, you nailed it too....
> Sounds like you are trying to prove something to yourself.....
> ...



Hi Joe

That is fair advice. I have more or less come to the conclusion that what I want is a bike that runs nicely when completed. I am not after some concourse machine and also won't be selling the bike. So I am moving along with other parts of the rebuild. Thanks for taking the time to provide that perspective.

Mal


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## mattthemuppet2 (Dec 7, 2020)

I think the problem too is that if you try to get better than the factory specs you've obtained you may end up chasing your tail, where one adjustment changes a value elsewhere, and fixing that one changings something else. I see it in building bicycle wheels - when the spoke tension gets high and the runout low, trying to reduce the runout in one place causes problems somewhere else. Whenever I see that start to happen I stop and call it good.


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## malmac (Dec 7, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> I think the problem too is that if you try to get better than the factory specs you've obtained you may end up chasing your tail, where one adjustment changes a value elsewhere, and fixing that one changings something else. I see it in building bicycle wheels - when the spoke tension gets high and the runout low, trying to reduce the runout in one place causes problems somewhere else. Whenever I see that start to happen I stop and call it good.


I had better take that on board not only with this but especially when I get to rebuilding the spoked wheels.
Thanks for the advice. It seems like good advice.


Mal


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## malmac (Jan 3, 2021)

Well lots of distractions have slowed progress and this year looks like being a lot of run arounds and not much restoration work.

The crank is finished and finally within spec.
So now I have to sort out the flywheel for runout.

Now this flywheel is the correct flywheel for this engine but is not the flywheel that came with the engine.
So this will be a voyage of discovery.

First I had to make some bearings for the trueing stand.




Then attach the flyweel to the crank and start the checking process.




So more head scratching because the first quick spin was not a perfect or near perfect score.

Mal


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## malmac (Feb 13, 2021)

They say never give up.  Well I keep plugging away at this rebuild.

Today I had to modify some reproduction oil slingers so they fit as required.

Here is a composite image that I hope tells the story of the press tool I turned up to get the fit I wanted.

Unfortunately I forgot to snap a pic of the press tool in the hydraulic press at 2000psi.

Cheers.


Mal


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## C-Bag (Feb 13, 2021)

malmac said:


> They say never give up.  Well I keep plugging away at this rebuild.
> 
> Today I had to modify some reproduction oil slingers so they fit as required.
> 
> ...


This is definitely one of those times where I’m sure this all makes sense to you and I see the change but have NO idea how this works and what it is other than an ”oil slinger”.


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## juiceclone (Feb 13, 2021)

C-Bag said:


> I had a ‘72 R75/5 with a  Vetter fairing. I loved that bike, especially the incredible engineering. When i saw the header I had to check because if it was a BMW car I wouldn’t care, not at all a fan. The old BMW air cools, very cool. Had no idea it was so heavy on the special tools though. I also was a VW air cool fan and it didn’t take a 1/10 the specialized equipment.


Had a German Hercules JB-K in the 50s. Everything was perfectly fitted.  The head was so well designed it required no gasket!  But u gotta put it back together with the same care!!


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## malmac (Feb 13, 2021)

juiceclone said:


> Had a German Hercules JB-K in the 50s. Everything was perfectly fitted.  The head was so well designed it required no gasket!  But u gotta put it back together with the same care!!






Was your machine something like this one.

A really pretty machine.
Even has Earles type front forks.

Very nice.


Mal


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## malmac (Feb 17, 2021)

Well the time has come for the crankshaft to be put back into the crankcase.
I like to carefully measure everything to, as much as possible, avoid the need to pull the crank in and out because I have overlooked some basic clearance issue.

I draw up the crank and crankcase to scale to theoretically calculate the shim/spacers required for the best fit fore and aft.


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## malmac (Feb 25, 2021)

Started to put together some parts for the engine. Good to start assembly.

If you are familiar with these BMW models you will know that there is a lot of interference fits. Parts in the oven other parts in the freezer and then press together.


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## C-Bag (Feb 25, 2021)

juiceclone said:


> Had a German Hercules JB-K in the 50s. Everything was perfectly fitted.  The head was so well designed it required no gasket!  But u gotta put it back together with the same care!!


The old VW air cooled had no head gaskets either.


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## malmac (May 8, 2021)

Well things have moved along and quite quickly. Admittedly I spent more time in the shed and less time updating this thread. I know it is frustrating to follow a project and then be left dangling so I will attempt to round up the story.

There are a couple of woodruff keys used in this motor and one in particular gave me grief. I could not find the original and all the replacement keys were too lose in the slot, so just turned and jammed when I started to install the very hot front timing gear.

My solution was to add brass to the side of a key and dress it back to be a press fit. Below is my custom woodruff key installation tool. Once I pressed it in, I had no problem sliding on the hot gear and pressing it home.


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## malmac (May 8, 2021)

Once the front gear was on things were on the move again. The front oil pump gear installed and the nose bearing on the crank was a mile stone achieved. It was terrific to turn over the crank and feel the even running of the new timing gears. I was concerned that the clearence might have ended up too tight but all was well.


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## malmac (May 8, 2021)

At this point came some long delays. I helped my son build a complicated mounting system so he could mount his side car onto his K1100 BMW without taking off the lowers on his fairing. Then I had to install a Lithium battery system into our camper and I am no electrician, but alls well that ends well.

So after all that and other distractions I was back on task.
I installed the flywheel which fits on a taper and is torqued to 175 ft/lbs.
Following the Barrington guide book I torqued it down incrementally, measuring the runout after each increment.
Here is my setup for both reading the runout and also holding back where required to maintain the runout withing spec.



Then it was time to install the clutch which is very straight forward.


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## malmac (May 8, 2021)

Well a mate came over one day and we put the crankcase into the frame and attached the cylinders and heads.
It took most of the day going slowly and by the time we sat down to takeaway for tea I was feeling very optimistic.

In the morning we had this.




In the afternoon things were coming together.


Still a way to go but just small bits and pieces.


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## malmac (May 8, 2021)

So I fiddled with fuel lines, sorted out the magneto and points.
Played with the carbs and fitted the headers and mufflers. This was all done over several days as I had other responsibilities.
Then came the great day. Would it all work.
Well after careful preparation he started after only a few kicks and the engine sounds very together.
No nasty rattles, grinding or scraping noises.
Yes I have some fine tuning of the carbs to do but as far as the engine restoration goes this is the end of the story.
Will there be a follow up thread when I fit the new vales in the heads and new valve gear. Well maybe as I am going to machine up my own valve guides so the lathe will be part of that project.

Happy machining guys and girls. I'm heading off for a ride.

Mal

Test ride around the park.




You cant see the smile but I was hard pressed to fit it inside my helmet.




Thank you to everyone who took the time to follow my thread.
I really enjoyed hearing about the bikes in your lives and the other air cooled engines of common heritage.

Happy machining.


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## Tozguy (May 8, 2021)

What a totally awesome job and super looking set of wheels.
I can just bet that it purrs even better than when it was new. All that care and patience has paid off handsomely.
Thanks for allowing us to follow along during your project.


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## DavidR8 (May 8, 2021)

Thanks for taking us along for the ride! 
Well done!


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## FOMOGO (May 8, 2021)

A most enjoyable sojourn. Happy motoring. Cheers, Mike


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 8, 2021)

that is really cool, congrats on the build and thanks for the update. They really were rather advanced bikes for their time - leading link front fork, losw CoG boxer engine. Is that a frame pump I see just above and forward of the rear right shock?


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## malmac (May 8, 2021)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> that is really cool, congrats on the build and thanks for the update. They really were rather advanced bikes for their time - leading link front fork, losw CoG boxer engine. Is that a frame pump I see just above and forward of the rear right shock?



Ahh yes that is a tyre pump..... on our 1200GSA I carry a small 12volt compressor, which has come in handy more than once.

Mal


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 9, 2021)

very neat. I had heard about the compressor on the GS, fits in nicely with it's transcontinental/ Dakar rally remit


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## AGCB97 (May 9, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> View attachment 341222


I had one of those but it was too much for me. Only put 2000 miles on it before I sold it and went back to dirt bikes  Rode MX for a dealer (My cousin had the gift to gab and put that deal together.) Started on a 400 Suzuki. Again, too much for this little guy. Then they gave me a 125 Suzuki. I was 1st and 2nd in the points standings for 2 years before I got drafted.(49 years ago)
Aaron


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## malmac (May 9, 2021)

AGCB97 said:


> I had one of those but it was too much for me. Only put 2000 miles on it before I sold it and went back to dirt bikes  Rode MX for a dealer (My cousin had the gift to gab and put that deal together.) Started on a 400 Suzuki. Again, too much for this little guy. Then they gave me a 125 Suzuki. I was 1st and 2nd in the points standings for 2 years before I got drafted.(49 years ago)
> Aaron


Well I have ridden my share of miles but never been the competitive type.
But belated congratulations on your achievements.

Mal


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