# Heavy 10 Good Buy With Bed Wear?



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 15, 2015)

I have a local guy who wants to sell me his late father's old Heavy 10. Its a single tumbler gear box with a 36" bed and a Buck D1 3jaw chuck. No real other tooling besides a starrett indicator, which is unknown.


He started asking $900 and when Ilooked at it, the spindle had vertical play, the front V at the chuck has a ridge at the top, and the carriage was taken apart. After a thorough inspection, the spindle play was from a loose bearing cap, and it appears all of the carriage parts are there minus the 2 apron to saddle screws.

Given the state and wear, I declined to make an offer. Fast forward a month to now, and he's contacted Mr and wants it gone for $400.

Think this is a good buy?

I have a Rockwell 10", and while I'd rather have the Heavy 10, I don't want a major project or one that will be expensive to fix.  My Rockwell has it's own issues, like an incorrect tailstock from a SB 10K...


----------



## Andre (Mar 15, 2015)

If it's for 400 I think that's a good deal.....as long as the bed wear isn't a dealbreaker. The chuck (if it's in good condition) is probably worth that. Cam Lock spindles are a desirable feature.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 15, 2015)

The bed wear is really what's making me pause.  I'm pretty new to lathes and don't really know how or how much this would affect me.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Mar 15, 2015)

BlwnGazkit said:


> I have a local guy who wants to sell me his late father's old Heavy 10. Its a single tumbler gear box with a 36" bed and a Buck D1 3jaw chuck. No real other tooling besides a starrett indicator, which is unknown.
> 
> 
> He started asking $900 and when Ilooked at it, the spindle had vertical play, the front V at the chuck has a ridge at the top, and the carriage was taken apart. After a thorough inspection, the spindle play was from a loose bearing cap, and it appears all of the carriage parts are there minus the 2 apron to saddle screws.
> ...



You can do anything you set your mind to.
I'm a complete idiot when it comes to the 400 range.
i'd end up buying it and regretting it later.
the spindle play + the bed wear = BAD DEAL, RUN AWAY!!!!
(dependent where the wear is indicated)
unless, you are an individual with lots of money, the time and the will.
OR
you wish to make money from scavenging the lathe and selling the parts.
that is a better sent investment, IMHO.

for loose example, you could get at least 100 for the chuck alone(or more).
a Tailstock may be worth another 100, etc...

good luck either way you go!


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 15, 2015)

Well the spindle play was determined to be a loose bearing cap.  Snugging that up removed any discernible play.

The main concern now is the bed wear.  I don't really know that it's a problem for general use...?


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Mar 15, 2015)

whew, that changes the game a little.
do you have any idea where the bed is worn? (usually close to the chuck end gets the most wear)
if you are not making precision parts to dimension, you could learn to use a worn/abused machine and hand finish to dimension.
i'd snatch it for 400
make sure you look real good at the bearing caps and spindle(that may be a deal breaker)


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 15, 2015)

The front V is worn for about the first 10 inches starting at the headstock.

The front spindle bearing had been reassembled incorrectly by some one.  The bearing spreader? Was not in the slot of the bearing but sitting on top of the gearing and preventing the bearing cap from being fully seated.

I don't really know what to look for on the spindle bearings...  Scoring & play?  If so, no scoring but I didn't put an indicator on there the check for play.  None can be felt after I put the bearing together correctly.

Looking over the photo, I'd forgotten it also has a taper attachment.  

Is it crazy to try and swap everything over to a bed that's in better shape?  The saddle didn't have visible wear like the bed.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Mar 15, 2015)

Scoring and play would be first and foremost checked IMHO.
the saddle's v's are probably that ride on the bed are toast too most likely.
the taper attachment could be sold for 300 or so too...
finding a good bed with a bad headstock is a long shot but there is hope.
if you really want to make it work you can, but understand it will be some work and money to do it.
i'm the wrong guy to ask about crazy, i do dumb stuff all the time that probably shouldn't be attempted by sane people.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 15, 2015)

Haha! I do things all the time people tell me shouldn't work!

I asked about swapping parts to a new bed because I occasionally see good beds around, but it sounds like I'd be needing a bed & saddle combo which is undoubtedly hard to find...

I was kind of hoping it would be easy enough to just swap all the parts of this guys machine to the heavy 10 bed on eBay.  I suppose I could mate the saddle to a new bed with Moglice or similar epoxy.  I'd need to figure out how to ensure alignment during that process.


----------



## rafe (Mar 15, 2015)

I'd take a chance on that....see what else his Dad had ....worse case is it fall unnoticed out of the back of your truck and you are out $400 other than that I don't see how you could lose


----------



## aametalmaster (Mar 16, 2015)

BlwnGazkit said:


> Looking over the photo, I'd forgotten it also has a taper attachment.


 Forgot about the $400.00 and up part LOL. I would buy the machine..Bob


----------



## chips&more (Mar 16, 2015)

Just buy it, put it together and run it. I would not fret over any wear you see. Are you going to make high tolerance aerospace parts with it? Just run it and see what it can do, you might be pleased. I have seen the ugliest worn out lathes make better parts than a new lathe…Good Luck, Dave.


----------



## jmcghee (Mar 17, 2015)

FWIW I have a clapped out 9a that I can work to .001 with if I'm careful, and sneak up to the final dimension. I stoned down the high spots in the bed, and took great care to get the tail stock dialed in, and it's more than accurate enough for me (slip fits, press fits etc). A clapped out heavy 10 would be a dream come true


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 17, 2015)

I really like my Rockwell so far, but being unable to align the tailstock on it is problematic.  This makes the Heavy 10 much more attractive!

I'm new, brand new, to lathes and metal machining so that's part of the reason I'm on the fence about this.

I just bought the Rockwell 2 months ago and have almost completed an overhaul on it including new feed nuts and a cross feed screw.  The one thing I can't fix on it is the tailstock being to low.  The tailstock is from a 9" or 10" South Bend and is shimmed with 1/16" of sheet metal and is still a bit low for the Rockwell.  The only way to fix it is mill a new base or find the correct tailstock; I don't have a mill and haven't found a tailstock.

The Rockwell has variable speeds from 50-1500 RPM without changing any belts and has virtually zero wear except in the never oiled cross feed screw, it was dry as a bone.

The Heavy 10 has a larger spindle bore, and I don't have to fix a tailstock problem.  On the other hand, it needs to be reassembled and I don't know the wear conditions of the feed screws.  It also doesn't have a thread dial.


My intended use is difficult to say...  Immediately, I have a few firearm suppressor parts planned as well as some barrel threading and misc. auto parts I need for an old project car.


----------



## jneidig (Mar 17, 2015)

Maybe you should not give up on finding a tailstock for your Rockwell, you already have it. 
The heavy 10 would probably be a good investment for a part out if you are into that.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 17, 2015)

I haven't given up on finding a tailstock for the Rockwell but it may be a long time happening...


----------



## compsurge (Mar 18, 2015)

Bed wear is a huge concern. Ask me. I know  The concern is not the wear itself. It is _how_ it is worn. In my case, my saddle rocks corner to corner and causes a bumpy surface finish issue. Some adjustment can tighten it up, but the uneven surface removal drives me crazy. I have a flame hardened bed - is the one in question hardened or soft?

I was a noob to a lathe purchase, but got a complete lathe, tool package, newer motor ($350 by itself), and delivery for my purchase price. I'll be reworking this lathe since it is otherwise in very good shape (gear wear, leadscrew, etc.)

At $400 though, I'd be tempted to get it and have the bed reground (if hardened) and the saddle scraped and layered with Turcite. When you're done, the lathe will be great.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 18, 2015)

Well I bought it and had a couple friends help move it from place to place.

The bed wear isn't quite as bad as I remembered; somewhere around 0.010" I believe.  I'll try and measure it soon.

It definitely has a D1 chuck/spindle, but I was wrong on the brand.  It may be the original chuck, the marking is too faint to read at the moment.  Of course, I couldn't get the chuck off either.  The bed is also a 48" and not 36" like I thought.

Included for the price, were:
 - 3-4" Starrett Micrometer
 - 4-5" Starrett Micrometer
 - Starrett dial indicator of some fashion in the wooden box with accessories and extra tips.
 - Starrett 29* grinding gauge
 - Starrett micro bore gauges
 - A Victor? carbide insert holder of some size
 - About 10lbs of brazed carbide & HSS tool bits and a few boring bars


As moved in, not reassembled:


----------



## jmcghee (Mar 19, 2015)

Can you take a pic of the bed wear?  I think you did just ducky... when I got mine I paid more and got less, and I'm perfectly happy.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 19, 2015)

I'll try for a pic of the bead wear in the morning.  My phone camera wouldn't focus on it, so I'll try a real camera.

I think it's a lot less wear than I remembered, hopefully anyway.  Worst case?  I may have a machine to part out, dunno.


----------



## Doubleeboy (Mar 19, 2015)

Nice score, at that price you cant go wrong.
Have fun, be safe
michael


----------



## compsurge (Mar 19, 2015)

That's a good deal. If the spindle is good, you will break even or profit parting the spindle by itself.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 19, 2015)

Measured the bed wear with a dial indicator this morning.  I place a mag base on the saddle and the indicator on the front flat way, then I slid the saddle from far right to far left.  Total wear is 0.009" - 0.010" depending on how much I push down on the saddle.

I also assemble the front spindle bearing correctly.  Some previous idiot had pulled the bearing cap off without detaching the bearing spreader and that was just sitting loose in there.  After reassembly and snugging everything up, the spindle has plenty of shims and 0.002" vertical play per spec.

BTW, the bearing adjustment placard was in the drawer loose; wear was it supposed to be mounted on the machine?

Pics of bed wear under the chuck:


Note, that looks worse than it is due to the light diffracting on the edge of the razor blade.  Back lit with a flash light.


----------



## compsurge (Mar 19, 2015)

Does your saddle rock corner-to-corner? If it does, try seeing if you get a ribbed surface finish on your parts when using power feed. This is what mine does, so I'm curious if this exhibits the same surface imperfection. Either way, $400 for a D1-4 is a steal. I'd definitely consider spending the $1000 or so to bring the bed and saddle back up to spec.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 19, 2015)

I miscounted the D1 studs late last night.  It's actually a D1-3 spindle if that makes much difference...

It will probably be some time before I can cut anything with it.  I don't have a belt for it, and the cross slide and compound need re-assembly.  The hangup on reassembly is I'm not 100% certain I have all the tiny screws and may need to make several hardware store trips.

I also have an extra gib in the drawer....  I can't figure out what it was/is for.  Looks very similar in size to the cross slide gib, but a bit thicker.  Are the gib screws special or can I pick those up at the hardware store?  I haven't finished looking at all the screws, but I didn't see any that looked to fit.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 19, 2015)

I'm retarded btw, I have completely forgotten what the D1-X on the spindle is...  I measured it at one point early on while looking at it but didn't keep the notes.

When looking again, I remembered it had a D1 cam-lock and just assumed it was a D1-4 since that's what I've seen elsewhere.  Then looking at it earlier I thought "this has 3 cam studs, must be a D1-3..."

Now I remember D1-3 & D1-4 are very similar but not interchangeable and have the same cam-lock stud count...



Basically, ignore wear I say it's a D1-4 or D1-3 as I don't know at the moment which it is.


----------



## Doubleeboy (Mar 19, 2015)

D1-3 studs are smaller in diameter, you can look up their specs on line with google search.  As far as I know no Southbend Heavy 10s ever shipped with a D1-3, they were all D1-4.
michael


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Mar 19, 2015)

Even with the bed wear, you did real good!!!!!
the D1 is worth the money alone.
you can work around the rest!
Sweet Score!!!


----------



## compsurge (Mar 19, 2015)

Get a belt at NAPA or Autozone. Basic glue-to-fit serpentine. Much better than the stitched flat belts (no annoying noise, much smoother, better grip).

As f0r the gib screw, don't over-think it. Whatever fits in the hole works!


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 20, 2015)

I dug into it a bit more and the half nuts are pretty shot. I can rebuild those with a threaded sleeve epoxied in place, but I'm not quite certain the best manner to measure the wear on the lead screw.

Of course I can wait until the threaded sleeve is complete and see how much play I get with that on the lead screw, but is there another, better method?


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Mar 20, 2015)

the problem on the poor old lathe was lack of lubrication...
you'll have hours of fun making her feel better!
the leadscrew may be purchased on auction sites as well as the half nuts and other stuff you may not have but need .
the lathe is a prime candidate for Hand/Biax scraping !!!
too bad you are too far away, i'd scrape it for ya!


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 20, 2015)

Yeah, the ways are dry as a bone.

At least the spindle still has oil in the bearings & oil cups.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Mar 20, 2015)

unfortunately they were probably filled when the lathe went up for sale.


----------



## BlwnGazkit (Mar 20, 2015)

Possibly, but I don't think that's the case.

The oil cups had quite a bit of built up grime on & around them that hadn't been disturbed.


I'm going to have to learn myself a lot here...  I'd LOVE to be able to take you up on that scraping!  It's something I would enjoy watching, pestering about, and learning.  All I know of it is what I've seen on youtube.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Mar 20, 2015)

it's a fascinating phenomenon when you take a piece of metal and scrape small gouges into it in methodical application of the tools and produce a surface that is highly accurate. the accuracy surpasses most shops mechanical ability in machining and grinding operations.
even after things are machined to a very fine degree a lot of items are still hand scraped or hand lapped to final accuracy.
it's good to know human eye and hand are still better than other means for final fit.


----------



## Joe0121 (Apr 3, 2015)

My heavy ten has .003 of wear in the bed from the chuck to about 10" back.  But it is consistent so as long as I know that I can work around it pretty easily.  I replaced all the brass nuts so now all the dials have no describable backlash and take a dial indicator to detect (.001) which is less the factory spec. I am taking it apart and repainting it. I paid 1300 for it and if I came across another someone wanted 400 for I'd probably buy it if for nothing else other than to teach myself how to scrape bed ways.  I'm actually pretty jealous of you. A complete Heavy ten for less than 800 bucks seems like a smoking deal regardless of bed wear.


----------

