# pm25-mv z axis power feed



## mrjbinok (Mar 9, 2018)

I recently purchased a PM25-MV and have decided that my first project will be to add a Z axis power feed.  Adequate information of motor specs is in short supply, everywhere I have looked on the web, so here is what I decided to go with.... hopefully it will work out.  One thing that I hope is that I will be able to avoid making any modifications that result in permanent changes to the basic machine.

https://vod.ebay.com/vod/FetchOrderDetails?itemid=372095953216&transid=1006962105024&ul_noapp=true

There are several different options for the type of motor to use and prices run anywhere from $30 to several hundred dollars.  The right angle style geared motors have a better overall appearance for me and this will be my first choice.

I plan to use a transformer switching power supply with at least 30 Amp capability to allow for future additions.  My motor is rated at 6 Amps at full load so this size power supply should be beefy enough to handle just about anything.

In addition to the basic up down control switching, I will be mounting upper and lower limit switches for protection, as well a sheer type coupling between the motor and the hand crank shaft.  

I invite everyone to follow and contribute photos, thoughts, ideas, resources, links, dimensions, and recommendations here.


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## roadie33 (Mar 9, 2018)

Here is one from MrPragmaticLee on YouTube that he did on his PM Mill
I am going to do something like it for my G0704.
Just waiting on some warmer weather to go out to do the welding.


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## sfsteel (Mar 10, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> https://vod.ebay.com/vod/FetchOrderDetails?itemid=372095953216&transid=1006962105024&ul_noapp=true


It looks like this is for your transaction, can you post a public link to the motor?


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## mrjbinok (Mar 14, 2018)

sfsteel said:


> It looks like this is for your transaction, can you post a public link to the motor?



What I got is a MAKERMOTOR brand

100 RPM
Nominal Current 6 Amps
Part Number PN01007-10038

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Makermotor...953216?hash=item56a2a5a940:g:HjEAAOSwXaZZ1W-b

Many of the motors I looked at do not have any actual torque specs to compare so I hope that it's gonna have enough UMPH  to lift the head reliably.  I also picked up two Eaton Yale Nylon Pinion Gears.  18 tooth, 1 5/8 diameter, and molded for a 5/8" shaft.  This will be slightly smaller than the existing handle shaft so it will have to be reamed for fit.  The motor shaft is 3/8 so I will have to turn a bushing that will press into the gear.  Looking for matching gears was looking like a pretty expensive part of the project so I opted to modify these to fit and save some $$$.

I am working with my Cardiologist to get my BP meds regulated better so I can get out to the shop SOON!!  That's an adventure that I hope I never have to repeat.  In the meantime I will try to get some pictures of what I have bought so far and start laying out my drawings.

In the meantime be sure to follow Shooter 123456's modification thread.  He's got some pretty interesting stuff going on!!

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-pm-25mv-mill.65939/page-2#post-567497


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## talvare (Mar 16, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> Many of the motors I looked at do not have any actual torque specs to compare so I hope that it's gonna have enough UMPH  to lift the head reliably.



When I built my knee power drive unit, I determined the required torque by kind of going the "Flintstone" method. I had my Kurt vise on the table and stacked 200 lbs. of lead shot on the table as well. Since I had already machined part of my clutch drive assembly which also included a 1" hex for manual operation, I just used my torque wrench on the hex and raised the table, adjusting the torque wrench setting until I determined the minimum required torque to raise the table.
Just an idea you may be able to use.

Ted


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## mrjbinok (Mar 16, 2018)

talvare said:


> Just an idea you may be able to use.
> 
> Ted



Good idea Ted.  Going "Flintstone" is how we as hobbyist's figure out what to do next!!

My problem with the lower cost 're-purposed' motors I've found on the web, is that they don't have any torque specs available, so you're kinda out there flapping in the breeze till you try something to see if it will work.  I've hooked this motor that I picked up to a 12 volt power supply and it does seem to be a pretty hefty little motor.  That's about as far as I have gotten with the project though.  I am going through the medications maze following a mild heart attack to find something that will get me back on my feet so I can work out in the shop.

This is a scan of the only documentation I can find on this motor:






	

		
			
		

		
	
The "NOTE" applies to this motor


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## mrjbinok (Mar 16, 2018)

I did finally find some torque specs on (of all places) Amazon

*Product features*


Rated Voltage: 13.5 VDC
Rated Speed: 100 RPM
Rated Load: 60 Watts
Rated Torque: 3 N-m (2.2 ft-lb)
Shaft: 3/8" shaft with 1 flat ("D" shaft) where flat to OD is 0.322" and the length of the shaft is 0.886" long

Now to do some research to get an idea on whether this will work or not!!

According to MrPragmaticLee's video above the motor he is using produces 42 inch pounds of torque.... This motor produces 26.4 inch pounds.

This might struggle a bit, but he states that a smaller motor may work just as well.... it was just what he had available.  I think that going 'Flintstone' (Thanks Ted.... I like that phrase!!) is next on my list of things to look at.


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## mrjbinok (Mar 21, 2018)

I was finally able to get set up to see what kind of torque would be needed to raise the head on the Z axis.  the MakerMotor is rated at 26.4 inch pounds and according my test I was able to raise the head with 15 inch pounds.  That is without a final adjustment on the gib pressure.... just the way it came from the factory, so that may change once I do the adjustments.

With this in mind I'll start looking at how I will mount the motor and get the gears mated up to the crank handle shaft and the motor output shaft.  Since I was working by myself to get the machine up to the workbench top, I had to remove the table, cross carriage, and the vertical column with the head.  Took some time to get it moved, but now I will start cleaning everything up and put it all back together.  FUN FUN FUN!!!  Getting closer to making chips.


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## T Bredehoft (Mar 21, 2018)

I have a Ford Windstar wiper motor on my PM25, it is plenty powerful, but I use it only for cranking the head up and down. not for cutting.  It's about 60 rpm, six inches a minute.


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## mrjbinok (Mar 21, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> I have a Ford Windstar wiper motor on my PM25, it is plenty powerful, but I use it only for cranking the head up and down. not for cutting.  It's about 60 rpm, six inches a minute.



That's about the physical size of this motor.  The rated output rpm's on the motor/gear assembly is suppose to be 100 rpm's so this should work nicely.  I had seen several write-ups and videos that had used around 75 rpm's and they all said that a little faster would be nice.  There are several different variations on the MakerMotor website and they are available in quantity on fleabay.  I plan to make some mechanical drawings of whetever support bracket I end up making so perhaps others will benefit in the future.  

What did you do for a mounting bracket?  Can you post a picture or two for ideas?

I don't plan to use the motor to raise and lower the quill for cutting.... just to position the head to minimize flex and vibration.  For the most part I plan to use collets as tool holders for that reason.  I'm new to milling operations so I'll likely have a large learning curve on what works for me and what doesn't.  That's what is nice about these forums.....  I have a whole array of folks with more experience to keep me in line.  Thanks for contributing to my project.


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## T Bredehoft (Mar 22, 2018)

For reason beyond my thinking, I mounted the motor to operate a toothed belt to drive the head. I could just as easily mounted it direct. The PM25 head crank is on the left at the top of the column. I fabricated a mount on the bearing retainer there mounted the motor on the back of the mount. I put too toothed pulleys on the other side of the mount, one on the motor one on the crank shaft. The hardest part was making an output shaft from the motor. as it comes it has a stub about  1.4" long, square with a rounded half. Originally a flat piece of steel was pressed on to this stub.  Using the mill I carved a hole in the end of a shaft that went threw two bearings with the toothed pulley between them. 

I wish I had more RPMs, seems to take forever running the head up and down, between using a drill chuck or a milling cutter.  Fifteen seconds per inch for 2 1/2 inches isn't long, but If I had a 4 Inch quill I wouldn't have to do it.


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## mrjbinok (Mar 22, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> For reason beyond my thinking, I mounted the motor to operate a toothed belt to drive the head. I could just as easily mounted it direct. The PM25 head crank is on the left at the top of the column. I fabricated a mount on the bearing retainer there mounted the motor on the back of the mount. I put too toothed pulleys on the other side of the mount, one on the motor one on the crank shaft. The hardest part was making an output shaft from the motor. as it comes it has a stub about  1.4" long, square with a rounded half. Originally a flat piece of steel was pressed on to this stub.  Using the mill I carved a hole in the end of a shaft that went threw two bearings with the toothed pulley between them.
> 
> I wish I had more RPMs, seems to take forever running the head up and down, between using a drill chuck or a milling cutter.  Fifteen seconds per inch for 2 1/2 inches isn't long, but If I had a 4 Inch quill I wouldn't have to do it.



They must have changed the design in the column.  My crank is on the top right (facing the machine)  I didn't buy the bracket that they make for the motor so I will have to fabricate something to work.  I hope to be able to piggyback the bracket and motor to the existing crank flange (rectangular) and I have two nylon gears that I will modify on the lathe to fit the two shafts..... and slot the mounting bracket to allow for fine tuning the gear mesh.

I started some drawings last night with my TurboCad.  I've got a few other things to do this afternoon, but hopefully I can get started with the fabrication and lathe work this afternoon.  I'll be taking pictures of the project and will be able to post the drawings when I get it done.


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## T Bredehoft (Mar 22, 2018)

You are correct, I got it wrong, the handle/head drive is on the right facing the machine.  I didn't know about a motor mounting bracket. Enjoy the experience of developing a solution.


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## alfaspider (Mar 28, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> You are correct, I got it wrong, the handle/head drive is on the right facing the machine.  I didn't know about a motor mounting bracket. Enjoy the experience of developing a solution.



Did you post any pictures of the motor drive ?    thanks,


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## T Bredehoft (Mar 28, 2018)

alfaspider said:


> Did you post any pictures of the motor drive ?    thanks,



Sorry, no, I can't get the camera in a position so that it shows anything.


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## mrjbinok (Mar 28, 2018)

alfaspider said:


> Did you post any pictures of the motor drive ?    thanks,



Sorry no I haven't yet.  All I have right now is the manufacturer's mechanical drawing.

I am really restricted right now by health issues.  I haven't been able to get much shop time since I started the project.  Hopefully I'll get my meds regulated and things will settle down soon


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## mrjbinok (Mar 28, 2018)

I need to learn how to read the names on the post's !!!!  Blame it on my meds!!


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## mrjbinok (May 12, 2018)

Well after several weeks of being my own doctor, I finally got medications straightened out and was able to use the machine for the first time today.  Now I get to explain to my doctors where I got my medical degree!!

I had a couple of little projects that I wanted to try out with the machine before I actually started fabricating the motor mount for my Z drive.  I'm really impressed with how easy the machine is to operate.  Since I am new to milling everything has a learning curve so hopefully I can get started with this mod in the next few days.

I have all of the parts that will be needed so it is just a matter of mounting it and adjusting the gear feed.  After today's run I will definately want to get the Z drive done sooner than later and the addition of the X drive will not be in the not too distant future!  I'm basically a lazy guy and pushing a button to move the table is a lot more enticing than cranking the table back and forth manually!


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## mrjbinok (Jun 14, 2018)

It's been a while since I updated this thread and I am now nearly finished with the mod. To start off the nylon gears that I picked up had to be resized to fit the 3/8" motor shaft and the 5/8" mill crank shaft.  Here I have turned an aluminum insert to fit.  After knurling and using some handle grip cement the insert was pressed in and bored for the slip fit on the 3/8" motor shaft.

The set screws were taps for 12-32 and set screws installed and the excess was cut off and faced.






The support frame was cut and machined for a nice square fit.  Notice that there is a 1/8" lip on the end pieces to make it easy to align for welding.





Mock up with the support taped together.






After welding assembly is started.






Original crank is removed.






12 volt power supply is mounted to the wall abd motor assembly is trial fit on the mill.






I decided on a spring loaded momentary ON-OFF-ON rotary switch and picked up a perfect box from Amazon.  I wanted the box to mount at an angle so used a couple of cabinet hinges to mount.  Later I locked the hinge in this position and used JB Weld to make it somewhat permanent.





I've got the project running now and it works flawlessly.  I'll get some updated pictures later.

The motor output speed is 100 RPM and with the gears 1:1 movement is a nice steady 4.25 inches per minute lifting, and 5.58 inches per minute lowering.  The motor seems to have plenty of extra torque and runs nice and quiet.  It's taken me quite a while to finish the project because of health limitations, but well worth the effort.


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## mrjbinok (Jun 16, 2018)

The finished installation:












Eventually I plan to wire the 110 volt supply for the power supply into the main control box so that I will have the emergency stop feature.  I'm trying to figure out how to add a short Mp4 video to show my project in operation.


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## wrmiller (Jun 16, 2018)

Well done!


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## mrjbinok (Jun 16, 2018)

Not the best video quality, but a quick look at my mod doing it's job.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/data/xfmg/video/227/227207-0f0c867c5c7294c55ee07c4b0d7980f0.mp4


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 17, 2018)

Sorry if I missed the reason for the gears, but had you considered a direct drive like tin barn's? 

Nylon gears appear to smooth out the torque, but they seem to be a 1:1 ratio, so wonder if this DC motor could power the drive by itself?

Were the gears an Amazon investment?


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## mrjbinok (Jun 18, 2018)

redneckmachinist said:


> Sorry if I missed the reason for the gears, but had you considered a direct drive like tin barn's?
> 
> Nylon gears appear to smooth out the torque, but they seem to be a 1:1 ratio, so wonder if this DC motor could power the drive by itself?
> 
> Were the gears an Amazon investment?



When I started looking at options for building my drive, looking around at the different motors was a best guess scenario as to what it would take to lift the head in regards to torque and speed.  I had read that some had used a motor with output speed of around 85 RPM and they thought that it was too slow and wished that they had chosen differently.

I went with the 100 RPM motor and decided on the 1:1 ratio gearing initially just to get a starting point.  My reasoning to go with gears was that if I decided to change the speed, I could change gears with less expense than the motor and potentially the entire mounting layout.  Now that I have my setup operational, I can see that an increase in speed would be desirable.... at least for me.  The gears were an Ebay find and the two Eaton Yale Nylon Pinion Gears cost less than $10

As far as whether or not the motor could drive direct..... I think that it could and then some.  The operating voltage (output) for the power supply seems to be lower than it's rated voltage and I consider it to be the weak link in the setup.  This type of power supply are a dime a dozen all over the internet, but the cheap prices equate to less voltage and current regulation under load.

Right now I will use the current setup and be satisfied with it's performance as I get used to the rest of the machine.  At some point a different gear ratio and power supply changes will probably move to the top of my To-Do list.  As with most projects like this, there will always be a 100 different ways of doing the same thing.  This is my starting point and I hope that other members will come away with enough basic information that they will be able to see different options to build on and improve.

I really do appreciate yours and other contributors suggestions and knowledge.  Having a common interest and open forum for sharing ideas and asking questions are what makes this site what it is.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 18, 2018)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/YALE-EATON...451485?hash=item35e4b6cb1d:g:kGwAAOSw-W5U0O~9

You cleaned them out?  or else Trump tariffs starting to kick in???


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## mrjbinok (Jun 18, 2018)

redneckmachinist said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/YALE-EATON...451485?hash=item35e4b6cb1d:g:kGwAAOSw-W5U0O~9
> 
> You cleaned them out?  or else Trump tariffs starting to kick in???



Yeah he only had the two.  Really any source for nylon pinion gears will work.  The crank shaft is roughly a keyed 5/8" diameter shaft and the motor shaft is a "D" shaft that is 3/8" in diameter.  I cut an internal keyway on the 5/8" gear and made an insert to reduce the other gear to fit the smaller shaft.  The insert was turned from aluminum stock just oversized for the OD and knurled on the lathe.  I added some motorcycle handlegrip glue and pressed it in.

If you look at the video or the gear picture you'll see a slight misalignment of the two gears.  This is because the mill side of the mod needs a thin spacer to correctly position the gear on the shaft and restrict the endplay.  I've got it clamped down with the two set screws for now and it does the job, but a space is coming in the near future.

Jim


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 19, 2018)

Tinbarn utube videos suggest that wiper motor has enough torque for a direct drive setup, but his Flintstone mounting system had gear reduction.  PM25mv crank shaft (5/8") sticks out quite far, so your gear setup is space saving in the lateral dimension, in that the crank shaft and motor shaft overlap each other.

The ebay listing had a photo showing the EY part number as   641 2881 00 . 

 I've not been able to source a supplier of this gear as of yet, and wonder if anyone else reading this thread has suggestion for finding this part?   You might also be interested in replacement parts if you strip a gear in the future by hitting the top detent, or crashing down into the table?         ( S___ happens ?)


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## mrjbinok (Jun 19, 2018)

redneckmachinist said:


> Tinbarn utube videos suggest that wiper motor has enough torque for a direct drive setup, but his Flintstone mounting system had gear reduction.  PM25mv crank shaft (5/8") sticks out quite far, so your gear setup is space saving in the lateral dimension, in that the crank shaft and motor shaft overlap each other.
> 
> The ebay listing had a photo showing the EY part number as   641 2881 00 .
> 
> I've not been able to source a supplier of this gear as of yet, and wonder if anyone else reading this thread has suggestion for finding this part?   You might also be interested in replacement parts if you strip a gear in the future by hitting the top detent, or crashing down into the table?         ( S___ happens ?)



Not much to choose from right now on Ebay or Amazon.

I did a quick Google for "Nylon Pinion Gears" and came up with several sources... most are industrial with minimum orders, but even those will many times send out samples if asked.

This is one supplier that has a pretty extensive page of options:

https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog?cid=p207&filter=a6:2:18.0&sort=undefined&view=table

The type of gear that you use does not have to specifically be the EY gears that I used.  You should be able to get the specs for the EY gear to give you a starting point for a search.  Depending on what you are able to source, adjustments can be made to the support assembly to adjust spacing that will get you to where you need to be.  I actually bought the motor, then the gears.... then started figuring out what I needed to make them work together.

Your right about the mill shaft being rather long.  Looking back, that was another thing I considered with my layout.  I've looked at belt drives, gear drives, and combinations of both.... even adding a means of switching between the motor drive and the original hand crank.  I remember the old "KISS" principle!!

As I said above the one other change I plan to do with my mod is to wire the 110volt supply voltage to the 12v power supply to the mill's emergency stop.  Right now I have everything being fed from a power strip where I can kill power.


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## WyoGreen (Jun 19, 2018)

You know we are all machinist types with mills (at least some do) who maybe could/should make our own gears?
Just saying.........

Steve


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 19, 2018)

WyoGreen said:


> You know we are all machinist types with mills (at least some do) who maybe could/should make our own gears?
> Just saying.........
> 
> Steve




simple as:






and:






But:

The EY nylon hoist gears are different kettle of clams, these are wear resistant and can take more long term stress?


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## mrjbinok (Jun 20, 2018)

WyoGreen said:


> You know we are all machinist types with mills (at least some do) who maybe could/should make our own gears?
> Just saying.........
> 
> Steve



You are so right Steve!!

If I were a few years younger and in better health I would be right in there trying to do it.  I am late in life to start doing metal work and my health has become a very limiting factor.  This project was intended to get started working with my new mill without having the physical exertion that lifting the head was requiring on my poor old broken down body.

3 or 4 years ago I started making some specialty tools that are specific to working on the old Harley Ironheads.  I now have 11 tools that I can make and hope to add a few more with the addition of the PM25.  I am laying out my designs with TurboCad 3D and refining the designs with actually making a few of each on my 70 year old Craftsman lathe and now the new mill.  My hope is that I will have enough in place that one day my son or one of my Grandkids will be able to take my work and build it into a business after I am gone.

There are so many possibilities that these machines can bring to reality, and I wish that my remaining time would allow me to learn more, but for now I am concentrating on just what I need in the here and now.  I am so appreciative for friends like you and others here on this forum that continue to share ideas and a creative passion that so many in today's society are missing.  I have always been a DIY guy and I remember many years ago interviewing for a job as a R&D Tech.  I did my own resume and listed a lot of different things that I could do at the time..... Long story short, the President of the company asked me right up front "if there was anything that I couldn't do?"  My answer..... No!!

So here's the deal.... for anyone that is considering doing a similar project to mine or any of the other great ideas on this forum.  Never stop looking passed the horizon for what you think you can do..... and don't accept defeat until you've tried something at least 5 times.  The personal satisfaction of trying something new and succeeding can not be measured by man.  So to what Steve said above.... "Many of us could/should make our own gears".  I say WHY NOT what have you got to loose??


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 20, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> Yeah he only had the two.  Really any source for nylon pinion gears will work.  The crank shaft is roughly a keyed 5/8" diameter shaft and the motor shaft is a "D" shaft that is 3/8" in diameter.  I cut an internal keyway on the 5/8" gear and made an insert to reduce the other gear to fit the smaller shaft.  The insert was turned from aluminum stock just oversized for the OD and knurled on the lathe.  I added some motorcycle handlegrip glue and pressed it in.
> 
> If you look at the video or the gear picture you'll see a slight misalignment of the two gears.  This is because the mill side of the mod needs a thin spacer to correctly position the gear on the shaft and restrict the endplay.  I've got it clamped down with the two set screws for now and it does the job, but a space is coming in the near future.
> 
> Jim




FYI:

Attempting to locate part #641-288-00 EatonYale Industrial Trucks--  

EatonYale division sold to NACCO (North American Coal Co-   217-443-7785) . 
Regional Parts Sales- Miami, FL .  - Briggs  (305-624-1511)

Think you may have lucked out originally as this is a heavy duty hoist gear, probably high strength/wear fiber-reinforced nylon?

Might pay to try and locate some, and not reinvent the wheel or machine one made out of material that would not last? Or metal that might not run smoothly- or at least as smooth as nylon baby's butt?


Keith is fun to watch, but this probably can not be done on a PM 25mv that you recently purchased?


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## mrjbinok (Jun 21, 2018)

Judging from the intermittent duty that these gears are used..... at least what I am experiencing right now the gears even of lesser quality would probably last a considerable length of time.  The most I currently move the head is a couple of inches up or down to change collets and/or cutters. Most of the time I am able to move the table to do what I need.

I'm curious as to whether NACCO could give you any cross reference information.?

I did some searching for different gear suppliers and found this:

http://www.rushgears.com/tech-tools/part-search/gears/type/replacement_parts

They have phenolic spur gears that are close to what you are looking for.  Again they may be able to provide samples or source individual quantities distributors.  I have a feeling that unless you can get samples that the gears may be pretty expensive.  Won't know until you ask.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 21, 2018)

I spoke with Rick Katz at this parts supplier recommended by NCCO
----------Regional Parts Sales- Miami, FL . - Briggs Equipment-  (305-624-1511)

He is looking back into records to cross reference old EatonYale parts and records.  With time and effort you put into the motor drive, you may also be interested in this info, rather than having to remake the metal gear frame if this specific gear is not available?

Not an urgent matter, as can check other gear suppliers, but a couple of phone calls will not break the bank, and a lot quicker than having to reinvent the wheel- or cut new gears?

Nylon may come in many compositions, some with fiber reinforcements so checking on intended use is important.

Will check on this link as you suggested:
http://www.rushgears.com/tech-tools/part-search/gears/type/replacement_parts


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 21, 2018)

WyoGreen said:


> You know we are all machinist types with mills (at least some do) who maybe could/should make our own gears?
> Just saying.........
> 
> Steve


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## mrjbinok (Jun 21, 2018)

I hadn't really looked into molding my own gears.  Interesting videos out there!!

Might have to look a little further into different materials for molding a gear that would be a close second to the nylon in the gears I have.... and maybe make up some silicon molds ahead of time.  The only problem is that there's not enough hours in the day to play with all the different projects!!


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 21, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> Judging from the intermittent duty that these gears are used..... at least what I am experiencing right now the gears even of lesser quality would probably last a considerable length of time.  The most I currently move the head is a couple of inches up or down to change collets and/or cutters. Most of the time I am able to move the table to do what I need.
> 
> I'm curious as to whether NACCO could give you any cross reference information.?
> 
> ...




Well I did ask,,  and....  OMG......  $2395.00 . You want to order 2 more as replacements to help out?
Not sure I can formulate the proper fiber/resin mix after making the molds.

I have a feeling that the forklifts/hoists that EatonYale made are still being produced now as knockoffs, and that someone is making the replacement parts- Have not heard back from Briggs yet- but in no hurry.  Will keep eye out for similar pinion gears and post any findings in the future.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 21, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> I hadn't really looked into molding my own gears.  Interesting videos out there!!
> 
> Might have to look a little further into different materials for molding a gear that would be a close second to the nylon in the gears I have.... and maybe make up some silicon molds ahead of time.  The only problem is that there's not enough hours in the day to play with all the different projects!!


--

More teeth, but more reasonable:
https://www.ebay.com/p/Team-Associated-9360-Idler-Gear-B2-Ascc6360/1500309457?iid=291315094050

Several sellers on ebay, not sure of what idler gear is used for- need to check.  
looks to have an internal bore of 3/8" for a shaft, but appears to have a rim so could be bored out and epoxied to larger shaft.  Nylon so, just have to keep looking....


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## roadie33 (Jun 21, 2018)

Find someone with a 3D printer and have them print one with the bore size and tooth count you need.
I think Mr Pete did some for his Atlas Lathe and has a YouTube video on it.


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## mrjbinok (Jun 23, 2018)

redneckmachinist said:


> --
> 
> More teeth, but more reasonable:
> https://www.ebay.com/p/Team-Associated-9360-Idler-Gear-B2-Ascc6360/1500309457?iid=291315094050
> ...



I think these are smaller gears for R/C race cars.  Pictures are misleading as to actual size on ebay, so be careful and ask seller for more information.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 23, 2018)

Yes-  I suspect there are many sizes and applications for fiber reinforced nylon gears- just have to stumble on one that will fit.  I am in not hurry, so will alert you if something good pops up.

BTW:   I think I already have an functional and effective Z axis motor drive without much fabrication .  - Its a little red neck, but what do you expect?  Pretty hi torque, and don't need a transformer or pot for speed control.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 23, 2018)

https://ridingmowerparts.com/go/ebay/371557725885

_*Size:*_*  16 Tooth   OD: 1-5/8" . PN: 860-3*

_*Description:*_​
_*Quantity 3 Replacement Aftermarket Briggs & Stratton Plastic Starter Gears
for Aluminum and Plastic Flywheel Gear Engines.
Gear will fit many models of Briggs Engines.*_​


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## HMF (Jun 23, 2018)

By the way, I want to remind everyone that we have our own VIDEO library where you can post videos without using YouTube:

*https://www.hobby-machinist.com/gallery/categories/member-video-channels.6/*


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## HMF (Jun 23, 2018)

By the way, I want to remind everyone that we have our own VIDEO library where you can post videos without using YouTube:

*https://www.hobby-machinist.com/gallery/categories/member-video-channels.6/*


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## HMF (Jun 23, 2018)

By the way, I want to remind everyone that we have our own VIDEO library where you can post videos without using YouTube:

*https://www.hobby-machinist.com/gallery/categories/member-video-channels.6*

*available to donating members.*


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## mrjbinok (Jun 23, 2018)

redneckmachinist said:


> https://ridingmowerparts.com/go/ebay/371557725885
> 
> _*Size:*_*  16 Tooth   OD: 1-5/8" . PN: 860-3*
> 
> ...



Those should be strong enough to last a long time!!  A good way to test your skills to make a adapter ring for the inside of the gear to mill for a 5/8" shaft and keyway and a matching gear to fit whatever the motor drive shaft happens to be.  (In my case a 3/8" D shaft).  Just about can't beat the price!!


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## HMF (Jun 23, 2018)

By the way, I want to remind everyone that we have our own VIDEO library where you can post videos without using YouTube:

*https://www.hobby-machinist.com/gallery/categories/member-video-channels.6/*

*available to donating members.*


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 23, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> Those should be strong enough to last a long time!!  A good way to test your skills to make a adapter ring for the inside of the gear to mill for a 5/8" shaft and keyway and a matching gear to fit whatever the motor drive shaft happens to be.  (In my case a 3/8" D shaft).  Just about can't beat the price!!



Yes- still looking at options, but these are designed to work a flywheel of mower motors.  I was thinking of epoxying 2 together for a 1" wide gear surface, so would need a total of 4 for both z drive and motor shaft.  Adapter spindle could be turned on lathe, and could even attach roller bearings to the motor shaft to show off?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Starte...518513?hash=item53f825e4b1:g:IWoAAOSw63FaEGml

The 12 volt starter motor is cheaper than a windshield wiper motor, but not sure if RPM would be to high to control?  orientation would be similar to Tin Barn's drive, and it may have enough torque.   Looks to be permanent magnet motor with ground, so have to isolate the motor from column to use a double throw toggle switch.

-------
Cheaper by the dozen?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-STARTER...699073?hash=item3ac3f4bb81:g:1LoAAOSwbcJXPf3K

Lifetime Supply?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25-STARTER...846546?hash=item3ac3f6fb92:g:lDIAAOSw71BXPgIY


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## mrjbinok (Jun 24, 2018)

I'm not sure that a starter motor would have the ability to reverse....  I'm sure that it would have plenty of torque, but yeah speed would be a challenge to gear down to something usable.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 24, 2018)

Yes- Starter motor has positive pole, and grounded frame body.  

Don't know if you used positive ground and hit pole with Neg if the motor would reverse- I'm not an automechanic.

If it did work that way, would be bugger to double insulate the mounting frame and work in a double pole reversing switch..  but just an idea- as briggs starter motor can be had for $25, and wiper motors look to be $65

If it could be double insulated, would not need gears and could direct mount the motor shaft to the z axis handle shaft with a single rubber/plastic connector joint?

Think I'm heading for auto salvage yard for wiper motor, and the briggs flywheel gears...  But I have time


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## mrjbinok (Jun 25, 2018)

Might also look at power window motors as they may give a little extra torque and still maintain a small footprint.

I found these two threads when I logged in tonight.  Similar project and good looking tutorials on making gears.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/power-z-conversion-for-pm45.69552/

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/a-nice-gear-tutorial-1.68592/

We have a lot of good resources right here on HM for doing the things we want to learn.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 26, 2018)

Went thru those threads.  Think the mobile home slide out motor is bit overkill?  and not sure i want metal gears.

Have seen two speed wiper motors- so if have enough torque might be good for elevating/lowering head of a 25?  
And two speeds would be nice.

Have also seen quite a few other applications of wiper motors for power tools, robots ---  and this price is good, and worth a first try:   

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Auto...m=281349810237&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982


As far as gears, the fly wheel nylon 1/2" may do to start:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-STARTER...699073?hash=item3ac3f4bb81:g:1LoAAOSwbcJXPf3K

My plan would be to epoxy/bolt two together for a 1" wide gear, and cut shafts for them to fit the motor shaft and Z drive wheel axle.  At this price, can afford to experiment.

Have also seen these timing gear/pulley with belt setup if need reduction:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/XL-30-10-T...e8:m:mPy0eXcQW3kGazMTQDCnS-w&var=561427337655

Going to start thinking wiper motor has enough torque on 1:1 gear ratio.  If not- then back to the ebay..

Plan on using the same type of motor for lateral table drive, with a single control box with switches and central power.

have to see----


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## mrjbinok (Jun 26, 2018)

I have always believed that there are a 1000 ways to do something.  That's what makes a hobby interesting!!  You've got some solid ideas to work with and I'll be interested in your progress.

I have the metal change gears on my Craftsman lathe and they are a bit on the noisy side, but for this application I don't think it would really make any different whether the gears are metal or nylon/plastic.  As long as the gibs are adjusted and the ways lubricated raising and lowering the head should be a smooth operation with little strain on the gears.

I wonder that the output speed is on the wiper motors??  I don't think I would be happy with anything less than a 100 RPM's.  150 would be ideal from what I am seeing with my setup.  Two speed might have it's advantages too, and depending on the output speeds make it easier to be flexible with available gearing.

I can see using the pulley belt setup.  You could still keep the installation compact like what I have, and if you can find different pulleys for changing the ratio it would be a breeze to change.

I had thought about a lateral drive, but haven't really needed it for the small pieces that I have been working with so far.  Once set in the vice, I only have to move the table 2-3 inches to make my cuts.  I'm now thinking that unless I decide at some point to add a CNC capability and tackle that learning challenge, I'll just leave it manual.

Take lots of pictures as you work through your mod.  I'll be following with interest!!


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 27, 2018)

Only thinking of the nylon flywheel gears because they are an inexpensive stock item that can be replaced or purchased by someone wanting to duplicate after the mechanism following the thread.  Also, since they can operate a flywheel they may be a bit more wear resistant than gears designed for other applications.

I have also seen these 12v DC motors used for diy applications, including lateral motor drive for mini-mills. 

Geared for number of different RPMs- and no load torque is indicated as:  

* *Load torque: 10KG.CM*
* No-load speed choice : 0.6RPM/2RPM/3RPM/10RPM/25RPM/100RPM/120RPM
* Self-locking worm gear motor, ie., output shaft will not move w/out electric current.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-Mot...c2:m:mss6yV43zYgQ8HOH4CvVOqA&var=621520808302

-----
Not sure how to flintstone the PM25 Z-drive to see if it needs more than 10KG/cm- so might risk $7- 14?


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## mrjbinok (Jun 27, 2018)

The motor I used is rated at 2.2 ft lb's or 26.4 in lb's or torque.  The crude test I ran for a minimum torque to lift the head was somewhere around 15 inch pounds.  My brain goes 'TILT' every time I have to convert imperial to metric.... so I'll let you do that!!  I'm not sure if it's a product of low voltage, low torque or low speed that makes it seem like my setup is working as hard as it can.  

The voltage rating on the motor is 13.8 VDC and my power supply which is a 12 volt supply sold for driving LED's actually has a load voltage of about 11.8 volts.  I haven't checked to see how many amps it actually takes but the supply is rated for 30 amps.  These power supplies from China are junk in my opinion.  They have a voltage adjustment but it has a very small adjustment range and won't get to the 13.8 needed.

I was ordering some drill rod from Speedy Metals online last night and noticed that they carry nylon round stock as well as another high strength plastic.  I may look into adding a dividing head and cutters for making these gears on the mill or my lathe at some point.  On my bucket list anyway.  The nylon that Speedy sells is rated high for machinability so it should be pretty easy to work with.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 27, 2018)

To prevent further brain 'TILT' to convert imperial to metric use this simple online calculator:

http://www.onlineconversion.com/torque.htm

---
I get:

2.2 ft lb = 30.42 kg cm

15 In lbs = 17.28 kg cm

Motor rated at:

10 kg cm =  8.68 in lb   or    0.723 ft lb

So a little shy of your 15 estimate, if the calculator was calculated correctly?  
1:2 gear reduction might hit your estimate, but cut the rpm down to 50?


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 27, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> The motor I used is rated at 2.2 ft lb's or 26.4 in lb's or torque.  The crude test I ran for a minimum torque to lift the head was somewhere around 15 inch pounds.  My brain goes 'TILT' every time I have to convert imperial to metric.... so I'll let you do that!!  I'm not sure if it's a product of low voltage, low torque or low speed that makes it seem like my setup is working as hard as it can.
> 
> The voltage rating on the motor is 13.8 VDC and my power supply which is a 12 volt supply sold for driving LED's actually has a load voltage of about 11.8 volts.  I haven't checked to see how many amps it actually takes but the supply is rated for 30 amps.  These power supplies from China are junk in my opinion.  They have a voltage adjustment but it has a very small adjustment range and won't get to the 13.8 needed.
> 
> I was ordering some drill rod from Speedy Metals online last night and noticed that they carry nylon round stock as well as another high strength plastic.  I may look into adding a dividing head and cutters for making these gears on the mill or my lathe at some point.  On my bucket list anyway.  The nylon that Speedy sells is rated high for machinability so it should be pretty easy to work with.


-----

Note :   Speedy Metals price is $35. per foot plus shipping for 1.5" nylon round stock?  I'm going with nylon flywheel gears... Free shipping


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 29, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> It's been a while since I updated this thread and I am now nearly finished with the mod. To start off the nylon gears that I picked up had to be resized to fit the 3/8" motor shaft and the 5/8" mill crank shaft.  Here I have turned an aluminum insert to fit.  After knurling and using some handle grip cement the insert was pressed in and bored for the slip fit on the 3/8" motor shaft.
> 
> The set screws were taps for 12-32 and set screws installed and the excess was cut off and faced.
> View attachment 269619
> ...


----
Question-----  


Did you remove the plate holding the shaft for the crank handle that bolts to side of the column?    Or bolt your motor mount box to the plate while it was still attached to the column?  

Looking at pictures from another post, it appears that the crank handle shaft is held in place by the boss attached to the plate.  (these again are pictures from another post on the forum).  Removing this plate would make your motor mount wobble?

I assume that the crank handle shaft is held in place and alignment by the plate,   and your "fabricated box" was attached to the outside of this plate with longer countersunk bolts.  It appears when the unit is CNC'd, that the vertical threaded shaft is replaced with ball screws/shaft and alignment occurs from above, and this crank handle plate is replaced with a blank.
	

		
			
		

		
	







I am also thinking of using two large pieces of angle iron (4x4x.25) that bolt together in an overlapped fashion on the top rather than fabricating a welded box.  Will need 3 or 4 bolts on the top to secure the two overlapped legs together, but then would be easier to mount the wiper motor (than you did from inside), and could unbolt and change the wiper motor angle iron plate side
	

		
			
		

		
	











	

		
			
		

		
	
 if wanting to change motors or gear dimensions.  (again just a conceptual pre-thought).


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## mrjbinok (Jun 29, 2018)

You're right about using longer screws and attaching my box to the outside of the original plate.  I didn't want to modify the original column any more than necessary so I ended up with only the 4 screws that hold the switch box.  I actually never did even open up the column to look to see what was in side.  If memory serves me and without going out to the shop I think the screws are M-6 and about 1/4" longer than the originals.  The original plate does hold the shaft in position for proper mesh.

I wonder if the wiper motor mounting bosses are laid out the same as my motor?  I previously posted a manufacturer's drawing that gives the dimensions for this one.  I wonder if the various wiper motors have somewhat of a standardized bolt pattern??  That would certainly make it easier in the future to try different motors or replace a bad one.

The pictures of the top mounted motor look to me as being over-built.  Depending what you have laying around the shop to work with, these motors don't produce a huge amount of torque so mounting doesn't have to be super sturdy.... rigid yes...... but bullet proof Mach Truck design is over kill.  My box was also a way for me to try out the machine and test my basic knowledge of milling operations.


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 29, 2018)

Yes I figured the crank plate with boss held the crank shaft in alignment, and that only CNC applications could remove the plate with top mounted motor.   Those pictures only related to the plate area and what is left when it is removed.  looked like that fellow had armor plated material laying around or planned on adding a turbo to the stepper?

I am still thinking of the overlapping angle iron as a short cut if wanting to change motors or gear ratios.  The piece of angle iron bolted to the column over the crank plate could stay constant, then only have to drill and bore holes in another piece of angle iron to change things.  Presently, I am way behind on this and looking at all the threads and utube videos before cutting or drilling...  Have ordered a few things..

Think you mentioned vice size in one thread somewhere?   I ordered the 5" but think some prefer the smaller 4" that PM sells?   Wish they had mentioned that when I ordered, or asked me to check...  I don't plan on the rotary base, but would like the most use out of it without banging into the column...


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## mrjbinok (Jun 30, 2018)

the 5" vice works without the swivel base without taking up too much of the vertical work space.  I mount mine lengthwise with its crank on the right side. rather than hang it off the front.  I have to shift the way that I feed the work piece 90 degrees but the machine doesn't seem to have any problems with it.

The 4" would be a better fit for the machine/table size but as I said in the other thread, I needed the 5" jaw opening for some of what I have plans for.  I bought the PM 5" precision ground.... Think it was like $119.  At some point I will likely be ordering the 4" with the hopes of having the swivel base option.

There are so many different threads, discussions, and videos out there for learning about the things we are interested in.  I've only been doing machine work for the last 5-6 years with a background in electronics.  I've always been a builder and an experimenter so this fits me to a tee.  BTW did you get the PM conversation I sent you a couple of days ago?


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## redneckmachinist (Jun 30, 2018)

Didn't get that PM message until today-- Have been busy moving and unpacking.
Here's a coupon you might want to use?   Expires 10/15/2018

From the email, you can probably tell what it will be used for....
I will not be using the EY gears, so grab that one on fleabay.


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## redneckmachinist (Jul 11, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> You're right about using longer screws and attaching my box to the outside of the original plate.  I didn't want to modify the original column any more than necessary so I ended up with only the 4 screws that hold the switch box.  I actually never did even open up the column to look to see what was in side.  If memory serves me and without going out to the shop I think the screws are M-6 and about 1/4" longer than the originals.  The original plate does hold the shaft in position for proper mesh.
> 
> I wonder if the wiper motor mounting bosses are laid out the same as my motor?  I previously posted a manufacturer's drawing that gives the dimensions for this one.  I wonder if the various wiper motors have somewhat of a standardized bolt pattern??  That would certainly make it easier in the future to try different motors or replace a bad one.
> 
> The pictures of the top mounted motor look to me as being over-built.  Depending what you have laying around the shop to work with, these motors don't produce a huge amount of torque so mounting doesn't have to be super sturdy.... rigid yes...... but bullet proof Mach Truck design is over kill.  My box was also a way for me to try out the machine and test my basic knowledge of milling operations.


--------------



*?????? -  couple of ??? when you feel better....*



*1.   Did you remove the original plate from the column to get the bolt pattern and dimensions for the additional crank plate?*  Seems to be a beveled gear on inner end of the z crank shaft, and roll pins holding the plate in place besides the 4 x M-6 screw/bolts.  I've not pulled the plate off yet but wondering if any alignment issues might be altered when plate is removed to make your template of cover plate for the motor mount.
a- From other online pictures, the plate unbolts ( d, e, f ), but holds the z crank shaft with gears that rotate the main z elevation rod.
b- Z crank handle is in awkward position with DRO monitor installed (a),  so this will have to be first project followed by lateral motor drive. 

*2.*   I picked up couple of the *cheaper wiper motors* to see if they might work ( see link below ).  Shaft on these appears different --  (threaded end with splined burr rather than D shaft of Markermotor) .   Will make template of mounting bolt/boss pattern and compare to Markermotor drawing

*3.   Plastic flywheel gears* (b) look to be 1.5" OD with larger bore, so have to make shafts for motor and the crank.  These are gears are 1/2" wide, so may epoxy 2 or 3 together to get wider gear contact surface and better adhesion to the arbor
	

		
			
		

		
	





















	

		
			
		

		
	
, but are inexpensive so can experiment.  (They are also a widely available item for number of lawn mower motors.)

*4.*  Assembled couple *different power/switching supplies* (c),  based on examples from several utube videos and your thread.   (slow boat from China- but pre-trade war pricing).

-------
*wiper motor:*

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Auto...m=281349810209&_trksid=p2046732.c100040.m2060


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## redneckmachinist (Jul 19, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> You're right about using longer screws and attaching my box to the outside of the original plate.  I didn't want to modify the original column any more than necessary so I ended up with only the 4 screws that hold the switch box.  I actually never did even open up the column to look to see what was in side.  If memory serves me and without going out to the shop I think the screws are M-6 and about 1/4" longer than the originals.  The original plate does hold the shaft in position for proper mesh.
> 
> I wonder if the wiper motor mounting bosses are laid out the same as my motor?  I previously posted a manufacturer's drawing that gives the dimensions for this one.  I wonder if the various wiper motors have somewhat of a standardized bolt pattern??  That would certainly make it easier in the future to try different motors or replace a bad one.
> 
> The pictures of the top mounted motor look to me as being over-built.  Depending what you have laying around the shop to work with, these motors don't produce a huge amount of torque so mounting doesn't have to be super sturdy.... rigid yes...... but bullet proof Mach Truck design is over kill.  My box was also a way for me to try out the machine and test my basic knowledge of milling operations.






OK- here goes the first trial run with your design, using angle iron housing and more readily available parts:







Made the gears by epoxying 2 Briggs starter gears together, and attaching them to arbor/bushing shafts with knurling and epoxy.  
Motor is $20 VW knock off, with threaded/splined output shaft.  Had to bore/tap and pin the motor arbor shaft to the motor, then attach gear via a bushing that was then pinned to the motor arbor.
Power supply is 30 amp 12vDC off of ebay, as is switch
Paint is Safety Blue Rustoleum from HD- need to prime and repaint after trial runs completed.

Works OK- Speed is fine and bought 2 motors- one extra for the lateral table drive via socket clutch .


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## redneckmachinist (Jul 24, 2018)

mrjbinok said:


> You're right about using longer screws and attaching my box to the outside of the original plate.  I didn't want to modify the original column any more than necessary so I ended up with only the 4 screws that hold the switch box.  I actually never did even open up the column to look to see what was in side.  If memory serves me and without going out to the shop I think the screws are M-6 and about 1/4" longer than the originals.  The original plate does hold the shaft in position for proper mesh.
> 
> I wonder if the wiper motor mounting bosses are laid out the same as my motor?  I previously posted a manufacturer's drawing that gives the dimensions for this one.  I wonder if the various wiper motors have somewhat of a standardized bolt pattern??  That would certainly make it easier in the future to try different motors or replace a bad one.
> 
> The pictures of the top mounted motor look to me as being over-built.  Depending what you have laying around the shop to work with, these motors don't produce a huge amount of torque so mounting doesn't have to be super sturdy.... rigid yes...... but bullet proof Mach Truck design is over kill.  My box was also a way for me to try out the machine and test my basic knowledge of milling operations.




============ 



*  Finished working unit*--  with momentary DPDT rocker switch...






Note:  motor output shaft is 10mm round, with 8x1.25mm threads after a conical spline contact area.  Motor arbor shaft needed to be bored, tapped and then re-bored to match the 10mm round and conical spline.  Small pin was drilled and inserted into the motor arbor/motor shaft to prevent arbor from detaching while in reverse drive


Components and sources are listed below.



* Components & Source:*



Housing                 3”x5”x ¼” angle iron.



Gears              Briggs & Straton Flywheel starter gears $1.25 each   (2 epoxied together per gear) 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Briggs-...n+starter+gear&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0


Motor            VW Wiper motor-  $20. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Auto...810209?hash=item4181c16821:g:EKQAAOxyIv5TkH5q



Arbors                    Supply stock, kurled and epoxied gear ID


Power Supply        12 v-  30 Amp - $20.    

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-110V-22...wer+Supply&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313




Switch DPDT            online - $10.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-DPDT-2...m=322862588031&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507



Paint               Home Depo- Safety Blue Rustoleum

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Ol...otective-Enamel-Spray-Paint-7524838/100142866


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## dcsleep (Jul 24, 2018)

Nice job! It looks great!

Very interested in seeing the outcome of your x-axis drive.


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## mrjbinok (Jul 25, 2018)

Nice job redneck~!!  As I have always said there are a thousand different ways to accomplish a mod like this.... all depends on what you have on hand to work with and how creative you can get!!

Next project is for the lateral table drive with clutch disconnect and reversible.  Got several ideas to work with.


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