# Cheaply Made Chinese Garbage



## blacksmithden

I've been wanting a bigger, heavier vise since I broke my 6". Princess Auto (which is basically Harbor Freight North for us Canadians) has a meaty looking 8" and I've been waiting patiently for it to go on sale. Well...today was the day. I made sure I was in there a few minutes before the store opened to make sure I got one....which I did. I was pretty rushed this morning, so I didn't even look at it. Just got it into the back of my truck, and off I went. I opened it up this afternoon. WHAT THE.....The handle on this thing is TINY compared to the body of the vise. 3/4 of the length of the handle is so close to the body that I can't even wrap my hand around it without the back of my hand being squeezed between it and the vise body. Then, the kicker. I turned it upside down. Oh my....now I see why the handle is so small with such crappy clearance.

They don't want you putting any real torque on this thing. The threaded rod is only about 3/4" thick, and look at the pathetic omega shaped cast "nut" standoff that it goes though. That's what's holding all your pressure. It's about 1 1/2" long, and is stood off the bottom of the body by half a country mile. I thought to myself...well...it might not break until I get it mounted on the bench...but after that, life expectancy is about 2 minutes. Nope...this piece of junk is going back to the store. The woman asked me 3 times what was wrong with it. I told her that it just wasn't built heavy enough for my needs. Finally, after she asked me the THIRD time, I said fairly loudly "It's built like a complete piece of junk !" I guess she didn't figure it was good to have customers at the counter getting loud about their cheaply made Chinese junk so she shut up and gave me my refund. I was hoping they would have skimped on the jaw alignment...finish...whatever, and made the actual important parts heavy enough. No such luck. I guess I'll keep hunting around for a good, but cheap used one. They want over 600 Canadian pesos for an 8" Record in my neck of the woods. If I'm nothing else...I'm patient. My crappy 5" spare will do for the time being.


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## TOOLMASTER

one look and you can tell its junk


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## dirty tools

YEP Junk
But sometimes we have no choice.
I bought a drill press vise, only to break it while trying to secure a piece for drilling.(3rd use)


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## dlane

Same problem with China crap down here. I blame it on Wall Street, EPA , printing money like tp 
Not going political but I don't think evan Trump can fix the mess this place is in.


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## blacksmithden

I'd seriously contemplate going out and buying the metal to make my own if I was willing to pay the $643 they want for an 8" record. I could probably make something far superior to any of the current offerings out there. Unfortunately, machining it out on my 8x30" vertical mill just isn't an option. It's just not up to a task of that size.


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## mikey

Don't they have the equivalent of Craigslist in Canada? Surely someone has an old vise they want to part with. I have lots of vises; one is a 4" Chas. Parker that weights 75# and the other is a 4" Wilton bullet vise. Cost for both was $150.00 ... in Hawaii! I find that used vises in good shape are much better deals nowadays.


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## Bob Korves

I am not familiar with Princess Auto, but know Harbor Freight very well.  There is one within two miles of my house.  Ever since I started reading every word of ALL the reviews on the EXACT part number I contemplated buying, I have been happy with every purchase I have made there.  The last thing I did not do that with was a vise.  I read the reviews after I got home with it.  The reviews were horrible.  Opened the box and found a broken off jaw in the box.  Tightened down the vise gently and the jaw fell off.  LOTS of those reviews.  So, I took it back in the unopened box.  Your Princess Auto vise:
http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/8-in-fixed-base-mechanic-s-vise/A-p8085755e
has only two reviews, both pretty bad.  There would be 50-100 reviews here on a HF vise.  HF is now listing how many stars items have in their ads.  Worthless.  Some people give it five stars and have never opened the box.  Others give one star and have no idea what it is for or how to use it.  Read every word of every review and you will know that product better than the store manager does.


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## blacksmithden

Yes...we have both Craig's List, and it's more popular equivalent, Kijiji. There's a few 6" ones around, but nothing in 8" or bigger. You guys have it good down in the US with the abundance of product availability, both new and used. Here in Canada, our entire population amounts to that of the state of California, spread out over a huge land area.....and over half of that population is concentrated in 3 major cities. Unfortunately, I don't live near one of the major 3 centers. I'm in the capital city of my province, and we only have somewhere between 750 and 800 thousand people. Stuff does pop up now and again, and I'm constantly watching. One has to be patient and jump on stuff when it pops up if you live here.


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## stupoty

Second hand record vice  they last multiple lifetimes (so long as their not overly abused) i would send a spair one with a canadian friend flying back tomorow but I think it might work out bad in excess bagage costs. :-0

Stuart


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## Ozwelder

Theres a thing you may notice about a LOT of  Chinese made products and that is diminishing quality as time goes on. Many products with a country of origin that a possibly third world and just starting off suffer from a rough sort of quality standard. 

As time marches on their products become much improved. Japan and Taiwan are great examples. China has a a decade plus to improve the overall quality of what they sell  but the in the main quality has gone done not improved.

When many Chinese products are first  w released the specs are good for dimensions , materials spec are the same and manufacture procedures seem good. and  but as they say wait!

Down the track the following issues of the same  product suffer from a whats now termed a quality fade. The dimensions of parts differ from originals, materials specs change and manufacture techniques are cheapened. All to save a few cents in each unit.

Irwin Vice grips are a good example. They took an excellent Brand name product and destroyed its reputation.

This is business culture dating way back and very come to overcome along with the corruption and lack of action by the central government.

I am not saying all Chinese stuff is like this but I like to know who made a product I am considering  and do the they follow international quality standards like 9001/9002

Check out the book Made poorly in China by Paul Midler.Its an eye opener.

Oz


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## TOOLMASTER

i would be more worried about everything glowing in the dark...


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## mikey

blacksmithden said:


> Yes...we have both Craig's List, and it's more popular equivalent, Kijiji. There's a few 6" ones around, but nothing in 8" or bigger. You guys have it good down in the US with the abundance of product availability, both new and used. Here in Canada, our entire population amounts to that of the state of California, spread out over a huge land area.....and over half of that population is concentrated in 3 major cities. Unfortunately, I don't live near one of the major 3 centers. I'm in the capital city of my province, and we only have somewhere between 750 and 800 thousand people. Stuff does pop up now and again, and I'm constantly watching. One has to be patient and jump on stuff when it pops up if you live here.



Good luck with your search. That small a population lends a new meaning to the word "rare".


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## blacksmithden

Bob Korves said:


> I am not familiar with Princess Auto, but know Harbor Freight very well.  There is one within two miles of my house.  Ever since I started reading every word of ALL the reviews on the EXACT part number I contemplated buying, I have been happy with every purchase I have made there.  The last thing I did not do that with was a vise.  I read the reviews after I got home with it.  The reviews were horrible.  Opened the box and found a broken off jaw in the box.  Tightened down the vise gently and the jaw fell off.  LOTS of those reviews.  So, I took it back in the unopened box.  Your Princess Auto vise:
> http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/8-in-fixed-base-mechanic-s-vise/A-p8085755e
> has only two reviews, both pretty bad.  There would be 50-100 reviews here on a HF vise.  HF is now listing how many stars items have in their ads.  Worthless.  Some people give it five stars and have never opened the box.  Others give one star and have no idea what it is for or how to use it.  Read every word of every review and you will know that product better than the store manager does.



Good point on the reviews. I just posted one of my own. We'll see if they edit it, or don't actually put it up after moderation. 



> Ok for a light duty hobbiest, but that's about it.
> 
> 
> I bought this thing this morning when I was in a rush. I didn't open the box until I took a break for lunch. The first thing that jumps out at you is how tiny...yes..the only word to use is tiny...the handle is TINY. It's also WAYYYY to close to the body of the vise. For 3/4 of it's length, I could get my fingers in behind it, but that was all, and my backs of my fingers were pushed up against the body of the movable jaw body. Hummm...that's really strange that they would do that. That's when I flipped it over. Ooooookay.....NOW I see why they put such a sucky handle setup on it. They don't want you putting any real torque on this thing. The threaded rod is only about 3/4" thick, and it goes through an omega sign shaped, insanely high, stood off bit of casting that's only about 1 1/2" long. I'm surprised it survived being drilled and threaded. LOL. My 5" piece of junk Canadian Tire vise could stand up to more pressure than this thing without breaking a sweat. I thought...nope...I'm not even going to take the time to drill new holes in the bench for this one. Back in the box, and back to the store. I'd rather spend 6 times as much on one good vise than have to dismount and drive 6 cheap ones back to the store...even if they were under warranty. After 29 years in the mechanical repair game, you get to know what's actually going to cost you more money in the end.





✘ No,
I do not recommend this product.


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## TonyL

To some extent, we all enjoy the benefits (and detriments) of very affordably-priced products (and services). As I choose my first metal lathe (with the generous support of this forum), I see something of a paradox that being an inexpensive, relatively high precision instrument. It looks like I am likely to cheerfully dump 2k-plus on something that thank God my livelihood doesn't depend on it.  It appears that many of you are making very some impressive objects with such products. When I observe what you folks are doing with these lathes; I am actually looking forward to my purchase and "risk" .  Some very nice folks on a very highbrow forum admit to using these less expensive, overseas, lathes with much success (via PM of course LOL).


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## mikey

What is even more impressive is the work many guys do on machines that are decades old and worn. In the end, it's the operator that makes the difference. Of course, that takes time and experience so the sooner you jump in the sooner you'll be able to do the same.


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## JimDawson

mikey said:


> In the end, it's the operator that makes the difference.



:+1:


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## savarin

Its the world of outsourcing in search of profits at any cost that is the root cause.
The chinese will produce the product at the price range you want.
How much an hour do you want to be paid? At that wage cost can the item be sold cheaply and still make a profit.


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## ericc

Unfortunately, we live in a new era in which nothing can be trusted.  Old folks tell me that it used to be like this in the good ol' days, and the youngsters incorrectly think it was better back then because all the junk has been thrown away, and only the good products remain.

From your name, it appears that you are a blacksmith.  Hello brother.  I had a similar problem to yours, so I added a few more tools.  Cheap vises don't like pounding.  Get a post vise.  You probably already have one.  Cheap vises do not like squeezing hard.  An arbor press is good; a hydraulic press is even better.  A cheapo Harbor Freight hydraulic press can outsqueeze a big expensive Wilton bullet machinist vise.  Cheap vises do not grip well for filing or hacksawing.  Use softer jaws or jaw inserts.  A lot of this stuff can be collected from places other than the store especially if you are a blacksmith (and especially if you have a reliable striker and welder).


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## dlane

The chi hydraulic HF 20 ton press I have is crap also , the holes in the legs are not drilled in the same locations so the press table is not square with the ram . What a waste,starting to really hate wall st.


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## Superburban

dlane said:


> The chi hydraulic HF 20 ton press I have is crap also , the holes in the legs are not drilled in the same locations so the press table is not square with the ram . What a waste,starting to really hate wall st.



If it is that one side is off by the same amount, you could make a small spacer to fit under the table on that location. Mine has been good.



ericc said:


> Unfortunately, we live in a new era in which nothing can be trusted.  Old folks tell me that it used to be like this in the good ol' days, and the youngsters incorrectly think it was better back then because all the junk has been thrown away, and only the good products remain.



At least for a while, you could judge a product my the name on the front, but no that is not even a good indicator. Even someone elses experience is not a good rule to go by. Most places make stuff up in large batches to keep costs down. Take the HF press above, one year it could be made by a factory in xyz china, and the next batch could be made in lower middle of no where china.

Its truly buyer beware now days.


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## dlane

Wow seems I can edit all posts , everybodys

You're not alone. 

I'm this will be fixed soon!


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## outboardguy44

I tend to avoid stores like Harbor Fright and Princess Auto-Return like the plague. In fact, I avoid most stores when it comes to buying tools.  Unless it's so unbelievably cheap that I can't ignore it, I don't like having any tool or machine shop device that was made in China on my property! I find that I'm far better off scrounging at yard and estate sales for stuff that was made in the USA or Canada. Farm sales around here seem to have a lot of good old indestructible tools like vises and compressors. For instance, I've never owned a new air compressor in my life. I've had four different ones, they've all come from from farm sales, and were well used, and I got years of trouble-free use out of every one of them. in fact, I gave two of them away years ago to people who are STILL using them. 

Hope this helps.

best,
T2


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## qualitymachinetools

There are quite a few vises still made in the USA. Yost, Some Wilton, I believe some Palmgren too.   They have them on Amazon at reasonable prices.    Not cheap, but very reasonable.


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## blacksmithden

qualitymachinetools said:


> There are quite a few vises still made in the USA. Yost, Some Wilton, I believe some Palmgren too.   They have them on Amazon at reasonable prices.    Not cheap, but very reasonable.



Our problem here is 95% of the stuff on amazon.com doesn't ship to Canada. We have amazon.ca to work with instead....much high prices, and much less selection....just like the stores up here. LOL.


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## Str8jacket

blacksmithden said:


> Yes...we have both Craig's List, and it's more popular equivalent, Kijiji. There's a few 6" ones around, but nothing in 8" or bigger. You guys have it good down in the US with the abundance of product availability, both new and used. Here in Canada, our entire population amounts to that of the state of California, spread out over a huge land area.....and over half of that population is concentrated in 3 major cities. Unfortunately, I don't live near one of the major 3 centers. I'm in the capital city of my province, and we only have somewhere between 750 and 800 thousand people. Stuff does pop up now and again, and I'm constantly watching. One has to be patient and jump on stuff when it pops up if you live here.



Ha ha 2 drops of wee came out I laughed that hard over the small 750 thou people!

Our nearest major center is 6 hours drive from me it has under 200k people. Our biggest city in our state is 12hours drive!
The prices are also double and our dollar is less than 3/4s. You are not alone.
 stock pile your cash and order from the US in bulk. Or just cop the frieght costs and costs for decent equip where you have too. Every time i buy cheap it costs me more, every time the disappointment in the item and myself for buying it is more. I feel your pain.


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## blacksmithden

I got a couple of responses from Princess Auto via email, about my review. LOL. They also removed my review from their website. I'm so glad I copied and pasted it here. I'll remove the Canadian Tire part, and see if they find another excuse to axe it. If they do, then you can be assured that they're doing it with all the reviews, and you can't believe a thing you read on their website. As it is, it's a pretty weak excuse for deleting a review instead of just blanking out the other company's name. Anyway....here's what they sent me.




June 6th

Hello. Thank you for taking the time to review our product.


Unfortunately, we cannot publish it to our website as you mention a competitor.


I have however, forwarded your comments to our Buyer.  In the interim, if you are not satisfied with the quality of the vise, you may return it for a refund if you wish.


We apologize for the inconvenience.


Regards,



Estelle Paquette,

Customer Service Representative

Représentante du service à la clientèle

====================================
Princess Auto Support/Soutien technique

Princess Auto Ltd/Ltée
Box/CP 1005
Winnipeg, MB R3C 2W7
Toll Free/Sans frais: 1-800-665-8685
Toll Free Fax/Télécopieur sans frais: 1-800-265-4212
E-mail/Courrier électronique: answers@princessauto.com



And today, June 8th


Hello.


Our Buyer has responded:



*For the serious user, they need to buy either our Pro.Point or Wilton vise, the Pro.Point and only the Wilton Tradesman vise are 70,000 PSI, drop forged. But unfortunately both these are 6” vises. (8507873 and 8660839) The Wilton one is American made vise*



*Additionally, there will be  a new line of Powerfist vises in stores in the future  that are much better than the current assortment, much stronger, but they are still hobbyist vises.*



*Thank you*



*Regards,*



Estelle Paquette,

Customer Service Representative

Représentante du service à la clientèle

====================================
Princess Auto Support/Soutien technique

Princess Auto Ltd/Ltée
Box/CP 1005
Winnipeg, MB R3C 2W7
Toll Free/Sans frais: 1-800-665-8685
Toll Free Fax/Télécopieur sans frais: 1-800-265-4212
E-mail/Courrier électronique: answers@princessauto.com


EDIT: Ok...I removed the name "Canadian Tire" from my review and reposted it. We'll see if that flies. LOL.


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## george wilson

IF YOU PAY ENOUGH(!) you CAN get a decent Chinese vise. I bought a FORGED STEEL Chinese(Great Wall brand) vise back in the 80's from Wholesale Tool. I think it was $80 or $90.00. It is not going to break because it is FORGED STEEL,not cast iron(which comes in many grades from China:decent to crappy). There is a VERY similar vise sold under an American name(Rigid),but they want several times what I paid. I saw a big steel workbench at the junkyard for $75.00,and it had a Rigid vise on it. Terrible orange color! No where as nicely painted as my vise. I thought about buying it and just taking the vise off,but I have plenty of vises already. Back to the story:This vise has an unusual and good way of adjusting the play in the sliding member that is part of the moving jaw: The sliding part has 2 precision ground 45 degree flats on it,on either side. There are 2 adjustment screws that you can turn tighter or looser. A good vise has very little play in the movable jaw. With this vise you can achieve that.

The whole vise is really great quality,and has a very smooth,nice paint job on it. The Chinese can send satellites into space,and are fully able to make whatever quality level the importer wants. Look at all the televisions,computers and cell phones! Unfortunately,a lot of people want something for nearly nothing. That is where the problem REALLY lies: Lack of discriminating customers who actually know better and demand better. This is why places like Harbor Freight flourish. I will buy acid brushes and twine there,and nitrile gloves(HALF of what Walmart wants!),but not a lot more.


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## HBilly1022

There is a positive note to the cheap Chinese stuff; if it weren't for the cheap Chinese stuff, a lot of us would not have a lathe or a mill. There is no way I would spend $12,000 for a new Southbend lathe just for hobby use but I did talk myself into spending $2,000 for a chinese one. I don't expect to pass this on to my grandchildren but it might last long enough for my son to use it for a while.

In the meantime I am learning some new skills and enjoying the journey.


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## blacksmithden

I have to agree that China "can" produce quality goods. It's the North American consumer that's driving the dollar store grade junk market. If we weren't buying it, then the company buyers wouldn't be ordering it. I'm just as guilty as the next guy, but I've drawn the line with some stuff. This vise was one example. My lathe was made in China and my mill was made in Taiwan. I agree with you HBilly1022 that I probably wouldn't be in the machining hobby right now if it wasn't for the cheaper Chinese import stuff. If you're willing to work within the limitations of anything, then you can make it work. The question is, are you willing ? My lathe and mill are good enough for what I want to do 99% of the time. My vise however....that I need to take a beating and a half when necessary.


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## HBilly1022

I agree BL. I've had many issues with my lathe and some with my mill. I tolerate them because I am not willing to spend a lot more to be involved in this hobby. The lathe in particular is of poor quality IMHO and I have come to accept that, for now. But there is a big difference between _poor quality_ and _junk_. I also won't tolerate junk and it gets taken back or not purchased when it is spotted in time.

I've got a relatively old vise in my shop that I'm sure is chinese and I've been a little rough with it. The jaws aren't parallel and sometimes I can't get the head to lock tight enough to stop it from turning. But for what I do it is OK. I recently found another smaller vise I had in storage for years and started using it on my small welding table. I noticed the jaws were parallel but until this thread I didn't realize it was actually a quality vise. It is a Record vise.

I like Princess Auto but they do sell some junk and you have to watch for it. My favorite thing about them is their return policy, at least at our store. My experience with returns has been excellent for the few things I have returned.

I think a decent used vise will be a lot easier to find than a decent used lathe. Good luck with your search.


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## tackit

The Chinese have the ability to produce top notch products but importers demand less quality cheaper products because of competition.  I take into consideration my skill level, a well made expensive tool wouldn't necessarily make my projects come out better,  and because quality costs I may suffer from a lack of tooling to do a specific job which can effect project outcome too.


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## Superburban

Trying to find parts for my Rung Foo 45  style mill, shows the differences. Mine had no name on it any more, so I looked at parts lists from every company that sold such a thing. Grizzleys has roller bearings on all the shafts, Harbor freight had two different ones, the early one from the 80 I think, had bushings on most of the counter shafts, and the lead screws. The later one have bearings I forget the other makes I ran across, but I remember some had plain table gibs, and some had tapered.  I ended up taking mine apart, and getting the numbers and/or measurements from the bearings and seals before I could order them. Also, some had 3 phase motors, some had 115/230 volt, and mine is just 115 volt. 

Point is, they will make a product to what ever specs the purchaser wants. Even items that you think are the same, can vary widely in quality.

Companies like Harbor freight, order stuff by the truck/ boat load, When they are almost sold out, they order more maybe from the same place, maybe someone else. Quality from each order can, and does vary widely.

Buyer beware.


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## Str8jacket

My issue with the chinese stuff is that, down here (in orstraya), it has got to the point that there is no other options. Everything is cheaply made but not necessarily cheaply priced. The saturation of the market and the consumer driven pricing means that the better quality brands are not even on offer, but you can pay top dollar for the varying quality levels of  chinese made items. 
The place i used to live has no tool shops left except the mega chain stores. They may have one Starret caliper or such locked away in a glass cabinet but by the pricing i dont think they want to sell it, its just there to drive the price up on the "high end" chinesey caliper. There are very few options. I have to mail order most things now because not one place locally sells anything decent. My spending on my hobby is out of control i think!.... my wife knows it is! Most times i will go with out rather than buy poor quality to satisfy an immediate need, which brings its own frustrations.


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## dlane

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, Craig's list or feebay for me , Enco if nesasery


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## jocat54

dlane said:


> Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, Craig's list or feebay for me , Enco if nesasery



I look on Craigs List most everyday--but I can go to a retail store and buy most of the listed stuff around here almost as cheap and it would at least be new.
I am amazed at the asking prices of some stuff here. Sometimes there is a descent deal but not often.


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## Downunder Bob

blacksmithden said:


> I've been wanting a bigger, heavier vise since I broke my 6". Princess Auto (which is basically Harbor Freight North for us Canadians) has a meaty looking 8" and I've been waiting patiently for it to go on sale. Well...today was the day. I made sure I was in there a few minutes before the store opened to make sure I got one....which I did. I was pretty rushed this morning, so I didn't even look at it. Just got it into the back of my truck, and off I went. I opened it up this afternoon. WHAT THE.....The handle on this thing is TINY compared to the body of the vise. 3/4 of the length of the handle is so close to the body that I can't even wrap my hand around it without the back of my hand being squeezed between it and the vise body. Then, the kicker. I turned it upside down. Oh my....now I see why the handle is so small with such crappy clearance.
> 
> They don't want you putting any real torque on this thing. The threaded rod is only about 3/4" thick, and look at the pathetic omega shaped cast "nut" standoff that it goes though. That's what's holding all your pressure. It's about 1 1/2" long, and is stood off the bottom of the body by half a country mile. I thought to myself...well...it might not break until I get it mounted on the bench...but after that, life expectancy is about 2 minutes. Nope...this piece of junk is going back to the store. The woman asked me 3 times what was wrong with it. I told her that it just wasn't built heavy enough for my needs. Finally, after she asked me the THIRD time, I said fairly loudly "It's built like a complete piece of junk !" I guess she didn't figure it was good to have customers at the counter getting loud about their cheaply made Chinese junk so she shut up and gave me my refund. I was hoping they would have skimped on the jaw alignment...finish...whatever, and made the actual important parts heavy enough. No such luck. I guess I'll keep hunting around for a good, but cheap used one. They want over 600 Canadian pesos for an 8" Record in my neck of the woods. If I'm nothing else...I'm patient. My crappy 5" spare will do for the time being.





blacksmithden said:


> I've been wanting a bigger, heavier vise since I broke my 6". Princess Auto (which is basically Harbor Freight North for us Canadians) has a meaty looking 8" and I've been waiting patiently for it to go on sale. Well...today was the day. I made sure I was in there a few minutes before the store opened to make sure I got one....which I did. I was pretty rushed this morning, so I didn't even look at it. Just got it into the back of my truck, and off I went. I opened it up this afternoon. WHAT THE.....The handle on this thing is TINY compared to the body of the vise. 3/4 of the length of the handle is so close to the body that I can't even wrap my hand around it without the back of my hand being squeezed between it and the vise body. Then, the kicker. I turned it upside down. Oh my....now I see why the handle is so small with such crappy clearance.
> 
> They don't want you putting any real torque on this thing. The threaded rod is only about 3/4" thick, and look at the pathetic omega shaped cast "nut" standoff that it goes though. That's what's holding all your pressure. It's about 1 1/2" long, and is stood off the bottom of the body by half a country mile. I thought to myself...well...it might not break until I get it mounted on the bench...but after that, life expectancy is about 2 minutes. Nope...this piece of junk is going back to the store. The woman asked me 3 times what was wrong with it. I told her that it just wasn't built heavy enough for my needs. Finally, after she asked me the THIRD time, I said fairly loudly "It's built like a complete piece of junk !" I guess she didn't figure it was good to have customers at the counter getting loud about their cheaply made Chinese junk so she shut up and gave me my refund. I was hoping they would have skimped on the jaw alignment...finish...whatever, and made the actual important parts heavy enough. No such luck. I guess I'll keep hunting around for a good, but cheap used one. They want over 600 Canadian pesos for an 8" Record in my neck of the woods. If I'm nothing else...I'm patient. My crappy 5" spare will do for the time being.


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## Downunder Bob

Most cheap stuff is junk especially if it comes form China, Indonesia and India. Those countries do produce some good stuff, but is the exception rather than the norm.

The big discount house like Harbor Freight and Bunnings here in Australia, while they all sell some good stuff, they do carry a lot of junk for the gullible. If you want quality do your research and check the product out before buying, That is why I have ordered my new lathe from Taiwan rather than accept the chinese junk, sure it will cost me 50% more but I know it will do what I want and I expect it will last quite a long time probably outlast me, and the local importer will stand by me if I have a problem. These days Taiwan is up there with south korea not far behind japan but still quite a bit cheaper.


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## Subwayrocket

Here is a Tungsten grinder I made, $35 total into it. $15 Harbor freight angle grinder, and their diamond wheel that comes in a set for another purpose . I've sharpened hundreds of tungstens with it...when the grinder dies I've got 2 more spares above the shop and extra diamond wheels which are diamond both sides. $35 for a dedicated Tungsten grinder is cheap. I wouldn't try to actually use this grinder for grinding...i'm sure it would die fast, but in this light duty application it works well.   




I recently bought this tool chest at HF , it great...especially at $189  http://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage/tool-carts/five-drawer-service-cart-95272.html

I bought this drywall Scaffold at Harbor freight, I cut the top of the legs off at 34" high, flush with the top of the plywood, I added another layer of 3/4" plywood  .
I basically repurposed it as a rolling work surface/work table. It's very solid and I do all kinds of projects on it. I can roll it in the driveway to paint, I can roll
it around as projects and work flow change. It's solid. I know drywall and spray foam guys that use it.  http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-portable-scaffold-69055.html

Although I built a more robust cart for my TIG machine, 300CF and water cooler, their MIG cart is not bad at all, carries a MM 211 and a 150CF just fine .
For light duty, rolling across my garage, sometimes out to the driveway it's plenty good enough and holding up well. 
http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/welding-accessories/welding-cabinet-61705.html 

Most of their power tools I would not buy. Their sanding discs and wheels are not good.

Usually I hear what's good there by word of mouth, or a couple trusted youtube fabrication channels I watch.

I get china 1/4'' Tungsten Carbide die grinder Burrs on amazon , $18 for 5 , they hold up same as $12-$20 a piece burrs .
Took a chance on one set , went back and bought 3 more sets .

I wish I knew how to shop amazon and ebay for milling accessories.  I'm a complete noob with that, but hope to learn fast for the sake of my wallet !


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## dlane

K


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## dlane

It's taking over, garbage


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## Eddyde

Superburban said:


> Point is, they will make a product to what ever specs the purchaser wants. Even items that you think are the same, can vary widely in quality.
> 
> Companies like Harbor freight, order stuff by the truck/ boat load, When they are almost sold out, they order more maybe from the same place, maybe someone else. Quality from each order can, and does vary widely.
> Buyer beware.


Yes it's their willingness to make junk to meet the price point of the buyer, because they have no ethic of quality. Try approaching most western manufacturers   saying you want them to make something and you don't care how crappy it turns out or if it even works, as long as it is low cost, they would show you the door.


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## mcostello

HF sanding rolls are unglueing themselves in the packaging with any Human help.


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## wrmiller

Eddyde said:


> Yes it's their willingness to make junk to meet the price point of the buyer, because they have no ethic of quality. Try approaching most western manufacturers   saying you want them to make something and you don't care how crappy it turns out or if it even works, as long as it is low cost, they would show you the door.



Ah... Not any of the 'western' manufacturers I've worked (or work) for. Not sure which part of the multi-verse you live in though. I've bought plenty of junk stamped 'Made in USA'. The last was from Aloris.


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## DentorP

Str8jacket said:


> Ha ha 2 drops of wee came out I laughed that hard over the small 750 thou people!
> 
> Our nearest major center is 6 hours drive from me it has under 200k people. Our biggest city in our state is 12hours drive!
> The prices are also double and our dollar is less than 3/4s. You are not alone.
> stock pile your cash and order from the US in bulk. Or just cop the frieght costs and costs for decent equip where you have too. Every time i buy cheap it costs me more, every time the disappointment in the item and myself for buying it is more. I feel your pain.


Lucky me i don't live in Australia anymore, where machine tools like vises even locally made are expensive compared to US made tools nowadays in the States are cheaper than in Australia. Competition is the main ingredient i guess.


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## Wreck™Wreck

One may bash the Chinese manufacturers as much as one wants, however US consumers have created a market for such goods by demanding the lowest possible cost for every good that they buy from socks to hobby lathes. What did people here expect when a majority of consumers base their purchasing decisions on price alone?


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## savarin

Personally I'm fed up with the constant bashing of cheap Chinese products.
I expect I am like a large number of people in this "hobby" who have no way of purchasing or justifying the exorbitant prices of quality equipment and therefore would not be able to enter into this marvelous past-time that I have so recently discovered.
If you live close to areas where old stock is in plentiful supply then renovating those old "quality" machines may be a worthwhile pursuit but for many of us there is no other source and anyway they are often priced well above market value.
Without "cheap" Chinese product many of us would be locked out of the hobby.
Let us also not forget that the introduction of "out-sourcing",  virtually a mantra by most management teams these days meant that "quality" manufacturers (in many countries) also contracted with the cheap Chinese manufacturers for procurement of cheaper product and to lower their own labour costs.
I would like to see a cheap source of raw materials locally as I'm finding it very difficult to hide their high cost from the financial controller.


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## Superburban

What American tool manufacturers will deal with hobby machinists ? Supplies are getting hard enough to find, Look at the discussion with Enco. American 

Its not ethics, that prevent an American company from making a batch of crap quality machines, but rather labor cost, and liability insurance. A lot of small companies are prohibited from making end use products, because they would need a ton more insurance, which they cannot justify. Add in Taxes, and they cannot even come close to the price point of overseas products.

Now, Pieces parts. There is many American companies running circles around imports, in Quality, quantity, and even cost. Unfortunately, they are the ones who run a skeleton crew, and several CAD/CAM & CNC machines. A couple of programmers, A salesman, and a handful of low wage worker bees, and they can crank out tons of parts.


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## BGHansen

I have lots of Harbor Freight tools.  Most of my go to sockets and combo wrenches are Craftsman from the mid-80's.  The old saying "you get what you pay for" pretty much holds true for tools too.  I've opened up a HF open end wrench putting a huge load on it with a pipe over the handle.  Broken a few Craftsman sockets with breaker bars also.  Seems like my old engineering profs were right about the stress vs. strain diagrams, load something hard enough, you've move out of the elastic region to the plastic region and it will yield.

I haven't bought too much import stuff through the mail, mostly have had my eyes on it before purchasing.  An exception is QCTP holders.  I have at least 15 of the turning/boring BXA style that are all imports.  When I spend $11 for a CDCO vs. $60 for an Aloris, my expectation is to have to file/fine tune the CDCO to get it to work properly.  I'm willing to do this on 5 of them for the same price of one Aloris.

Just my opinion, but I don't believe the Chinese purposely make bad products, they are dirty filthy capitalist communists (or whatever that government over there is called) and want our money.  I just bought an AHP AlphaTig 200X welder, 2016 model.  I think it's imported from China, otherwise there'd be big "made in USA" stickers all over it.  They are a pretty popular entry level TIG welder and have evolved from the original 2013/14 model to 2015 then to 2016.  Whoever makes them listened to their customer complaints and fixed/upgraded the machine.  Not the type of response from someone only out for a quick buck.

We have the wonderful right of free speech in our country because of our wonderful armed forces servicemen who have paid the ultimate price many times.  All so we can buy something cheaply made from overseas and then gripe about it not working right after the fact.  If you have a bad experience with a tool or manufacturer, by all means post your experience as a heads up to others, then please move on . . .  

I work for General Motors which produces and sells more cars in China than the USA.  Can't tell you how many times I've read statements like "don't buy an American made piece of crap car, get a German or Japanese car".  We work very hard to correct any problems in our cars to protect our customers, yet we are still fighting the "legacy" perception of producing junk.  GM would love to open up more plants in the US and employ thousands of Americans ultimately boosting our country's economy (especially if we were exporting the cars).  However, we're still fighting (for good reason from past sins) that "junk" perception.  I'd give the Chinese the a fair shake.  Of course, we're bankrupting the USA economy buy sending more dollars to China than we get back, but that's the subject for another ranting thread . . .

Bruce


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## Downunder Bob

BGHansen said:


> I have lots of Harbor Freight tools.  Most of my go to sockets and combo wrenches are Craftsman from the mid-80's.  The old saying "you get what you pay for" pretty much holds true for tools too.  I've opened up a HF open end wrench putting a huge load on it with a pipe over the handle.  Broken a few Craftsman sockets with breaker bars also.  Seems like my old engineering profs were right about the stress vs. strain diagrams, load something hard enough, you've move out of the elastic region to the plastic region and it will yield.
> 
> I haven't bought too much import stuff through the mail, mostly have had my eyes on it before purchasing.  An exception is QCTP holders.  I have at least 15 of the turning/boring BXA style that are all imports.  When I spend $11 for a CDCO vs. $60 for an Aloris, my expectation is to have to file/fine tune the CDCO to get it to work properly.  I'm willing to do this on 5 of them for the same price of one Aloris.
> 
> Just my opinion, but I don't believe the Chinese purposely make bad products, they are dirty filthy capitalist communists (or whatever that government over there is called) and want our money.  I just bought an AHP AlphaTig 200X welder, 2016 model.  I think it's imported from China, otherwise there'd be big "made in USA" stickers all over it.  They are a pretty popular entry level TIG welder and have evolved from the original 2013/14 model to 2015 then to 2016.  Whoever makes them listened to their customer complaints and fixed/upgraded the machine.  Not the type of response from someone only out for a quick buck.
> 
> We have the wonderful right of free speech in our country because of our wonderful armed forces servicemen who have paid the ultimate price many times.  All so we can buy something cheaply made from overseas and then gripe about it not working right after the fact.  If you have a bad experience with a tool or manufacturer, by all means post your experience as a heads up to others, then please move on . . .
> 
> I work for General Motors which produces and sells more cars in China than the USA.  Can't tell you how many times I've read statements like "don't buy an American made piece of crap car, get a German or Japanese car".  We work very hard to correct any problems in our cars to protect our customers, yet we are still fighting the "legacy" perception of producing junk.  GM would love to open up more plants in the US and employ thousands of Americans ultimately boosting our country's economy (especially if we were exporting the cars).  However, we're still fighting (for good reason from past sins) that "junk" perception.  I'd give the Chinese the a fair shake.  Of course, we're bankrupting the USA economy buy sending more dollars to China than we get back, but that's the subject for another ranting thread . . .
> 
> Bruce



That pretty much sums it up. You usually get what you pay for, often even less, and very rarely more. Look at the specs, not the price.


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## Bamban

Here is a perspective from somebody who was an expat in China for 4 years.

I ran the Project Management  Office on a project that was the largest foreign investment in all of China in 2000. This was a true internationally diverse manned endevour; construction by Bechtel, an American company, design by a Portland company, logistics by a Japanese company, hook up by a London company, construction and hook up management, and  QAQC by American companies, and start up by our own engineers training over 250 engineers from the top universities in China. All workers were provided by Chinese companies. The project at over 1B with very aggressive timelines, fully integrated through Primavera from material acquisition through first silicon out, the execution must be right the first the first time, redos  will kill the first silicon target date.

Sorry for the lengthy intro, but I have to start from that angle for y'all to have the appreciation when you throw in an international team directing work effort of over 500 Chinese at the peak.

Here is what I learned:

The Chinese workers want to do a good job, hampered only by their ignorance on some aspects that we take for granted. No one wants to produce bad output at the end of the day.

The engineers are comparable to the best graduates I dealt with in the US, Japan, and EU.

The quality of the work is what the supervising company demands and expect. Properly trained workers coupled with quality systems in place at every level, the quality of the work meets or exceeds our company requirements.

What motivates the Chinese workers is no different from what motivates their American counterparts. Their Chinese dream is no different from our American dream.

So, how did that project go? Our first silicon ran through the factory by Chinese workers and engineers bested our US factories' mature yield by double digit, and exceeded the foundry yield in Taiwan by a couple of percentage. And the yield just continued to improve from that point on.

There you go, they can hang with the best if given the means to perform.


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## RJSakowski

Two decades ago, when I worked for a medical device company, our Quality Assurance Manager, a professional in the field, told us that, if customers were not complaining about the product, we were building too much quality into it.  As an engineering manager, if I saw a product deficiency, I made every effort to correct the deficiency.  I realize that there is a cost for additional quality and the line has to be drawn at some point but, IMO, it is a matter of ethics.

Later, when I was involved with a startup biotech company, we need to have some prototype molding done of a technically challenging plastic part.  We contacted a nationally known American company and had the choice of going with a mold and parts made in USA but with an aluminum mold of rather short life span or with a steel Chinese mold and Chinese made parts.  We opted for the latter.  As stated the part was technically challenging and the process of getting suitable molded parts was far more involved than either we or the vendor imagined.  


Everything went along not great but acceptable for a few years.  We place product specifications on the parts and insisted on them being individually inspected before leaving the factory.  As might be expected, this brought price increases, ultimately reaching tenfold.  Unexpectedly, we got a shipment that was total crap, not even close to meeting our specs.  After a bit of investigation, we found out the the press that they were molding on had died so they sent the work to a different factory where they had no idea as to what was being done to ensure meeting our quality standards.  

To be fair, a few years later the company that acquired us decided to bring the production back stateside.  We haggled around, soliciting bids for the mold design and manufacture and for production parts.  We finally picked a regional company (against my better judgement).  There was a sizable cost for the mold  and we also had to pay for a third party mold flow analysis.  First production parts were to have come off in about six months.  This process began four years ago and they still have not produced a production part.

 Offshore manufacturers make products cheaply because they employ cheap labor.  Many times the production workers are not aware they are making poor products.  I don't believe that anyone, given the choice between making a bad product or making a good part and all else being equal is going to make the bad product.   That doesn't mean that there isn't some plant manager trying to squeeze a little more production out of their plant or a QA inspector using the squeal test for appropriate product quality.  The solution for that though is vigilance on the part of the US importer or manufacturing counterpart.

A second point is that although we see a rash of complaints about Chinese lack of quality, it also exists in US made products.  There are certainly quality Made in USA products but I have run into more than my share of problems with them as well.  

Regarding product imported by US vendors, my Grizzly lathe came missing a set screw for adjusting backlash on the cross feed, drive belts that wouldn't work as supplied, and a Woodruff key that had been inserted upside down and the gear spacer pounded on, cracking the spacer.  My Tormach PCNC770 has a list of problems a half page long.  Grizzly claims to inspect every machine on arrival in it US warehouse yet the crate had apparently never been opened.  The same was true for the 770.

Finally, having ISO 9000/9001/9002 certification in no way implies that you are supplying quality products, only that you are supplying products of consistent quality.  The whole philosophy of ISO 9000 is that you design a product and make a first article to test for compliance to existing standards, if any, and because you have a quality system in place, you can make production product that will meet the same standards, if they were tested.


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## 4GSR

I can relate to what Bruce, Bambam, and R J has said.  The oilfield is full of "Made in China" stuff, too.  Every thing from drilling rigs, pump trucks, frac trucks, to all sorts of downhole equipment, which I'm involved with.  It's all about specifications & procedures to the Chinese.  They only do what you tell them to do.  And if your specification says to make it from "butter" steel, that's what you get.  I take care of findings that Chinese QC reports find and on the average, it's about equivalent to what I'm used to seeing over here in the states.   They report more findings dealing with light rust on some things to rough finish left from drilling a holes.  Stuff that I hardly ever see reported locally.


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## MeredithJL

Speaking of broken vises, I did this tonight at work.  It's a 3" mill vise (imported)  from LMS, it was part of one of their accessory packages that I bought when I bought my mini mill.  I was snugging the handle down when I heard/felt a soft 'thunk.'  Cracked it on both sides.  I've been using it for about 3 months, but not daily, and definitely not improperly.  I had it positioned in the middle of the table, directly under the spindle pretty much, and I had it secured with 4 clamp set-ups.  

Any recommendations on brands/models to look at, as well as ones avoid?  I'm thinking I'd like to get something a little bigger and deeper, maybe a 4 or 5", or would that be too big for a mini mill bed?  I'm going to have to keep the pricing below $300 if possible.


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## Downunder Bob

4gsr said:


> I can relate to what Bruce, Bambam, and R J has said.  The oilfield is full of "Made in China" stuff, too.  Every thing from drilling rigs, pump trucks, frac trucks, to all sorts of downhole equipment, which I'm involved with.  It's all about specifications & procedures to the Chinese.  They only do what you tell them to do.  And if your specification says to make it from "butter" steel, that's what you get.  I take care of findings that Chinese QC reports find and on the average, it's about equivalent to what I'm used to seeing over here in the states.   They report more findings dealing with light rust on some things to rough finish left from drilling a holes.  Stuff that I hardly ever see reported locally.



Hi, I cant agree more to your comments on the two previous contributions, Chinese mad stuff can be excellent, but mostly isn't, it's all about specification. and QC  and checking constant checking, Of interest I know that Harley Davidson have their alloy wheels made here in Australia, because we can make the quality. they have tried a few times to get them made elsewhere, but soon come back to us, they eventually bought the factory so they ensure supply.


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## MozamPete

savarin said:


> If you live close to areas where old stock is in plentiful supply then renovating those old "quality" machines may be a worthwhile pursuit but for many of us there is no other source and anyway they are often priced well above market value.
> Without "cheap" Chinese product many of us would be locked out of the hobby.



Agree, and while I buy mainly old tools and machines and enjoy the process of restoring them, other don't.  A few of the items I have picked up used had been brought by the previous owner with the intention of doing them up and using them - but in the end they go out and by a new Chinese one as they want to "use" a lathe not "build" one.


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## juiceclone

Inspect, and use with care !!
1) as with anything from China, you are the quality control.
2) from a country that can launch spacecraft, military vessels, subs etc. I find it suspicious that products intended for use outside China are of such poor quality that nuts and bolts don't even fit each other.  
Yes...I believe there is a "policy" within the Chinese government regarding what gets sent to other countries.
One can only hope that they will eventually appreciate the advantages of good products in a world market economy and make the necessary changes.  At the end of WW2 we were buying "Jap crap", now they produce the finest machinery, autos  and electronics in the world.


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## 4GSR

MeredithJL said:


> Speaking of broken vises, I did this tonight at work.  It's a 3" mill vise (imported)  from LMS, it was part of one of their accessory packages that I bought when I bought my mini mill.  I was snugging the handle down when I heard/felt a soft 'thunk.'  Cracked it on both sides.  I've been using it for about 3 months, but not daily, and definitely not improperly.  I had it positioned in the middle of the table, directly under the spindle pretty much, and I had it secured with 4 clamp set-ups.
> 
> Any recommendations on brands/models to look at, as well as ones avoid?  I'm thinking I'd like to get something a little bigger and deeper, maybe a 4 or 5", or would that be too big for a mini mill bed?  I'm going to have to keep the pricing below $300 if possible.
> View attachment 131854


LMC went thru a bunch of the 3" vises a couple years back for similar reasons. They changed to a "heavy duty" vise to take the place of the previously offered vise. You may check with them and see what they can do for you.  Other than that, save up your money and buy a Kurt vise or one of the other ones you can get now made of higher quality materials.

EDIT: If you turn over the vise, I bet the fracture line follows thru the bolt holes that hold the jaw in place.


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## MeredithJL

4gsr said:


> LMC went thru a bunch of the 3" vises a couple years back for similar reasons. They changed to a "heavy duty" vise to take the place of the previously offered vise. You may check with them and see what they can do for you.  Other than that, save up your money and buy a Kurt vise or one of the other ones you can get now made of higher quality materials.
> 
> EDIT: If you turn over the vise, I bet the fracture line follows thru the bolt holes that hold the jaw in place.




 I sent them an a mail explaining how it broke, along with this pic--hopefully will hear from them soon.


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## RJSakowski

One concern that I have regarding Chinese goods in particular but those from other countries of origin is that during the inspection process, there  is fallout.  My concern is that, instead of being destroyed, it finds its way back to the consumer market, usually at a price too good to be true.  Looking at the goods, there is no outward appearance of a defect but the goods will give poor performance or fail in use. 

Using the vise from the OP as an example, it is possible that the quality of the iron that went into the castings failed inspection and the manufacturer had a boatload of bad products.  To recoup some of the loss, the manufacture dumped the lot which was picked up by another entrepreneur and sold to the importer.

We could all probably come up with examples of products where this would be a likely scenario.


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## samthedog

RJSakowski said:


> One concern that I have regarding Chinese goods in particular but those from other countries of origin is that during the inspection process, there  is fallout.  My concern is that, instead of being destroyed, it finds its way back to the consumer market, usually at a price too good to be true.  Looking at the goods, there is no outward appearance of a defect but the goods will give poor performance or fail in use.
> 
> Using the vise from the OP as an example, it is possible that the quality of the iron that went into the castings failed inspection and the manufacturer had a boatload of bad products.  To recoup some of the loss, the manufacture dumped the lot which was picked up by another entrepreneur and sold to the importer.
> 
> We could all probably come up with examples of products where this would be a likely scenario.



You are right, items are not destroyed but rather recycled and sold on at cheaper prices. We have some services and manufacturing done in China through my company but we have trustworthy locals who do the QC for us before shipping. You may be surprised but if quality issues are found, the manufacturers are usually happy to fix them as they won't get paid otherwise. We also use locals to help build the spec. as we in the Western world take certain quality levels or assumed quality checks, finish grades etc... for granted.

As is quickly becoming the case, you get what you pay for and in some situations, not even that.

Paul.


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## savarin

here is one advantage of very cheap items -- you can abuse the hell out of them and not give a damn.


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## Bamban

What a lot people do not know Taiwanese ran the manufacturing might of China. When I repatriate in 2004, in Shanghai alone there were over 500K Taiwanese scattered across all industries. Why Taiwanese? They have the knowledge, experience, and speak the business language, and they got paid very handsomely. Despite the saber rattling, between China and Taiwan it is all about making money.

In the Dalian area some of the machine manufacturing were ran by Germans

Will you ride in a high speed train made in China? Google the high speed train in China. For laughs and giggles look up Mag Lev from Pudong to Shanghai.


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## Hidyn

I've been in manufacturing for over a decade now, and while you all agree that bad products are unintentional, I can tell you that quality takes a serious hit when morale is low.

People are more than happy to slap the name of their company on a skid of product that has serious flaws if you treat them bad enough.


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## Bob Korves

savarin said:


> here is one advantage of very cheap items -- you can abuse the hell out of them and not give a damn.
> View attachment 131942


Speak for yourself...

I don't like to damage ANY tool, though cheap and less treasured tools are certainly easier to blow off.  I often spend inordinate amounts of time making cheap tools right, from original quality issues, or from an early demise...


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## turnitupper

savarin said:


> here is one advantage of very cheap items -- you can abuse the hell out of them and not give a damn.
> View attachment 131942


That vise is not abused, just highly modified.
John.


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## Superburban

Hidyn said:


> I've been in manufacturing for over a decade now, and while you all agree that bad products are unintentional, I can tell you that quality takes a serious hit when morale is low.
> 
> People are more than happy to slap the name of their company on a skid of product that has serious flaws if you treat them bad enough.



That same basic ideaology applies to almost every occupation, yet seems to be overlooked in business schools. I call it the difference between being a manager, and a leader.


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## seanb

http://www.shars.com/products/toolholding-workholding/vise/5-550v-cnc-milling-machine-vise-0-0004-1

I got this one for christmas last year I think its pretty good. Not sure if they ship to Canada


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## Downunder Bob

Speaking of cheap Chinese made stuff. What do members think of the ER20 colletes and collet holders. I'm particularly looking at a #3 MT ER 20 collet holder,with M16 x 1.75 thread for draw bar, plus a set of collets. They are generally sold on eBay by many sellers and are unbranded. They look quite good in the photos, but are they any good when put to the test. They won't be used for really heavy work as long as they are reasonably accurate.


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## 4GSR

bobshobby said:


> Speaking of cheap Chinese made stuff. What do members think of the ER20 colletes and collet holders. ....snip......


I have several in the ER11, ER20, ER32 sizes.  So far so good.  I've modified a couple for applications where needed.  Most of the holders are fairly hard, 50-55 HRC range.
Have had no problems with runout, all well within specifications.


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## savarin

How much runout is considered ok?


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## Downunder Bob

4gsr said:


> I have several in the ER11, ER20, ER32 sizes.  So far so good.  I've modified a couple for applications where needed.  Most of the holders are fairly hard, 50-55 HRC range.
> Have had no problems with runout, all well within specifications.



Thanks, I might take a shot as they're quite reasonable price.


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## 4GSR

savarin said:


> How much runout is considered ok?


Most say .0002".  Seen one or two say .0006"

EDIT: I may have that backwards.  But my calibrated and certified eyeball says .0003" T.I.R..


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## Tozguy

I started buying tools in the late 1950s. Back then there was also some cheap stuff made from pot metal that broke on the first use. I don't remember where they were made (not China) but that's not the point. The point is business to succeed has to make what people are buying. If there are cheap garbage tools out there its because someone is buying it. It has been like that forever.

So if you are trying to find quality tools at junk prices then good luck to you. Actually I am really amazed at how much I do get at budget prices from China. But if you don't discriminate on quality don't blame the Chinese, they are laughing all the way to the bank.
If you want quality tools that perform you have to pay for them.


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## Tozguy

bobshobby said:


> Speaking of cheap Chinese made stuff. What do members think of the ER20 colletes and collet holders. I'm particularly looking at a #3 MT ER 20 collet holder,with M16 x 1.75 thread for draw bar, plus a set of collets. They are generally sold on eBay by many sellers and are unbranded. They look quite good in the photos, but are they any good when put to the test. They won't be used for really heavy work as long as they are reasonably accurate.



I am happy with my ER32 R8 collet set. It is better than anything I could make for myself and costs less than just the raw materials I would have to buy.


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