# My first Bridgeport



## Petrolero

Just bought my very first machine - I found a 1990 2hp (purportedly) varispeed Bridgeport with 48" table.  Found it in a nearby town for sale sitting in the back of an 18-wheeler trailer along with other machine tools.   No power there so couldn't listen to it run but was told everything was fine (of course they said that!).   The Y-axis ways have almost all of the scraping.  Worn in one area near the back, not too bad and not all the way across.   Can't see the X-axis but assume it's in good shape also.

Got it home and thanks to a very nice neighbor who brought over his backhoe got it off the trailer and into the shop.   Yesterday got it wired to shop power via a Phase-o-Matic.

They took it off the 18-wheeler with a forklift and in hindsight should have picked it up with the rear of the machine facing outwards - so they tweaked the power feed for the Y-axis.  The housing is split at the top where it was forced rearward but this I can repair.

I'm a complete noob at this, been watching Abom, This Old Tony, etc and waiting for my chance to jump in.  So this is literally the first machine I've ever seen in person.

My plan right now is to take apart the table and saddle and clean them up, make sure the one-shot is working properly and nothing is plugged up.

Three or four things jump out at me right off the bat.  First, The machine came with a set of collets.  Never worked with these before but I have the idea.  The head of the machine was upside down for transport and the drawbar was riding in the spindle.   So I get it home and get the head upright and am trying to insert a collet from the bottom.  the collet won't go in- the quill is all the way up and when I insert the drawbar into the top of the housing it drops far down inside the top of the housing.  the collet is not able to insert more than a half-inch up into the spindle, and it's not the key way keeping it out.   There is something else hanging down inside the spindle that's keeping the collet from moving upward.  The drawbar is far enough down that I can screw the collet into it, but the head of the drawbar is well below the top of the housing so I can't tighten it.  Again, the quill is all the way up.  Looking up inside, it's a smooth metal ring of some kind, not sheared.   Could something up inside the spindle have dropped downwards?

Next thing I find is that the spindle speed is opposite of what the speed indicator says- when I run the speed indicator all the way down, the spindle is running at max RPM and vice versa-   There is a tinny-sounding rattle coming from what I assume is the varispeed belt area when running at max spindle speed - but 60RPM indicated.  The rattle drops out at about 90 indicated as the spindle slows down and the indicator says it should be going faster.

I am just starting on this thing - it's quite dirty, and had a zirk fitting in the 'A' lube hole on the right side of the machine looking down.   Said Zirk has grease in it.  So maintenance has been questionable from what I can tell.  I'm not sure it's ever been apart for maintenance.

This will be a hobby machine for me, and while I might one day aspire to sub-thou cuts, I'll be happy right now to get it all cleaned up and learn how to use it. 

It came with a Kurt vise, but of course the seller forgot to give me the T-bolts to hold it down so that's the first thing I'll need after cleaning the vise and table.

Any advise on the above issues will be greatly appreciated.   I'm looking forward to learning a bit about this machine and starting to use it.

Best to all,
Petrolero


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## Mini Cooper S

The fun is just starting! Congratulations, next comes the lathe, then the drill press and then the band saw, grinder.........always something new.

Richard


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## Petrolero

Just rotated the head 90 degrees so I can see up inside the spindle- sure enough there's something jammed up in there, a hollow cylinder of some kind with outside diameter 1/8th or so less than the ID of the spindle - it's bottom edge is 3/4" up inside the spindle - looks like maybe it's slightly canted.   Smaller diameter than the inside of the spindle.  Definitely preventing the collet from moving up inside properly.  when I look down inside the top I see the point where the drawbar will rest several inches below where it looks like it should be, so that the top of the drawbar will forever be below the housing top and unreachable.  It does not appear to move with quill position.   When the drawbar is inserted into the top of the housing it falls down inside the quill/spindle and does not protrude from the bottom.   I can screw in a collet into the bottom but I'm at a loss to figure out how this thing will work properly - the top of the drawbar appearing above the housing for tightening - when the quill is all the way up.   It's almost like the drawbar is too short.

Not looking good-

Guess I'll go out there and try to remove the hollow cylinder.

Anyone seen anything like this before?

Thanks to all-

Petrolero


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## markba633csi

Sounds like maybe a piece of broken collet is stuck in there? You might try poking a wooden dowel up there or down from the top- see if you can budge it
-M
See if you can see any threads on it, shine a light from the top and look under with a mirror


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## jwmelvin

Pretty strange with the draw bar dropping in. Probably worth removing the spindle if you can get the ball trip lever out.


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## Petrolero

jwmelvin said:


> Pretty strange with the draw bar dropping in. Probably worth removing the spindle if you can get the ball trip lever out.


Ok - just back in from the shop - sweltering out there today so I'm only out there for short periods-

I tried wiggling the offending piece with a screwdriver inserted between the inside edge of the spindle and the piece - it definitely will move some side to side.   It acts like aluminum - I stuck a piece of wire with a hook up in there and I can feel the other side - it's jammed up against whatever the drawbar rides in.   Perhaps it's wedged in there by the collet key?   Markba - I looked for threads, but none - a shame since that would be the easy way to remove.   I've tilted the head 90 degrees to be able to see top and bottom of the unit.

Speaking of that, I figured there should be a drive nut somewhere to rotate the head with precision, like there is for the ram.   I can't find anything - once you loosen the head lock nuts the unit will swivel freely.   There is one likely spot with a long nut  - but it pulls out of the housing cleanly- no threads or anything else - looks like it was turned down in a lathe on the end.

So - how do I remove the spindle?   Guess there's a youtube for that.

Mixed up a batch of JB Weld and fixed the split power drive case.    Of course bending the power drive also put some runout in the drive screw at the end.   What's acceptable here?   Probably will find out when I put the power drive back on.

Warping the power drive with the forklift pulled some of the cap-head screws loose from the inner bearing retaining 'puck' so I've pulled that out and find that it looks to be home-made as I can't imagine BP making something so shoddy-looking.

Thanks to all who offer wisdom-

Just watched the H&W how-to.  Easy!   Going to do just that next-


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## Petrolero

Thinking about this - would it be better to find a bolt just undersized, stick it up in there and tack-weld it to the intruder with a goodly length sticking out so I can get a puller or something on it.  I'm hesitant to do that because I don't want to damage the inside of the spindle - maybe if I shielded the inside somehow-   I guess I also need to unplug machine first.


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## Firstram

I wouldn't weld a puller to it. It either went in from the top or bottom, take your time and you'll get it out. Lots of videos by H&W Machine to learn Bport repair.


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## akjeff

Great videos on servicing a BP mill right here. And super folks to deal with for parts and accessories.









						H&W Machine Repair and Rebuilding
					

Since 1982 H&W Machine Repair & Rebuilding has been providing machinery sales, repairs, rebuilds and parts for the metalworking industry. On this page you wi...




					www.youtube.com


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## Petrolero

akjeff-

Been watching these vids - wonderful content - this is what gave me confidence to buy one of these-  of course you can guess where I'll buy parts.

So I got it out. 

It's apparently a spacer for the top side of the drawbar.   I cut some light threads in it from the bottom side, threaded in a bolt, and took a long piece of rod and tapped on it from the top side of the machine.  Looks to be shop-made.  

So I proceeded to mount a collet- no key in the spindle-  so collet turns freely when trying to tighten.

Also, the drawbar still drops down below the face of the top of the quill housing, collet drops from the bottom of the spindle.   Obvious there's too much space between the bottom of the drawbar nut and the top of the spindle.   And, yes, the quill is in the full up and locked position.   When I added the intruder I pulled from the bottom of the spindle to the drawbar before inserting it the thing finally works correctly in terms of me being able to tighten the collet properly.

I guess what happened was the guy who sold it to me dropped both the spacer and the drawbar into the bottom of the spindle when he inverted the head for shipping and the spacer stayed stuck in the bottom-   Are these machines supposed to have a spacer like this?

One down...


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## benmychree

I had an experience with a Induma 1-S (very similar to a BP, made in Italy) the collet key was sheared off when I got it, and other work needed to be done, including replacing the quill because someone had tried to broach with it and sheared off several teeth on the quill, so I had to remove the spindle from the quill to replace the key, which was in the form of a countersunk head teat screw.  After reassembly and a few months of use, it sheared off again; I decided not to worry about any more, that was perhaps 30 years ago, and it still is the same way and works just fine, but I never used collets, rather I used end mill holders where it is easy to hold onto them while tightening the drawbar.  There was a thread on the subject sometime in the past, that came to the same conclusion.


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## jwmay

You're moving right along, but belated congrats on your new mill!


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## Petrolero

Last post for the day- 

Got the Kurt vise that came with the deal apart and cleaned up.  Almost brand-new in the wear department- a bit of surface rust on some of the top surface but that went away.

Anyone have any idea whatsoever as to why the speed indicator is reading backwards?

Thanks to all-

Petrolero


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## akjeff

Petrolero said:


> Last post for the day-
> 
> Got the Kurt vise that came with the deal apart and cleaned up.  Almost brand-new in the wear department- a bit of surface rust on some of the top surface but that went away.
> 
> Anyone have any idea whatsoever as to why the speed indicator is reading backwards?
> 
> Thanks to all-
> 
> Petrolero


If you still have your Kurt apart, you can get a "rebuild kit" from Kurt for about $20, and get new thrust washers/bearings, lock ring, the 1/2 sphere for the "angle lock" mechanism, dust plug. It's more than well worth doing. As for the speed indicating backwards. Not to be Captain Obvious, but do you possibly have the mill in "back gear"/low range, and looking at the wrong scale? Or possibly your 3 phase rotation is bass ackwards, and you need to swap phases? With the phase rotation reversed, it could fool you into thinking Hi was Low, and Low is Hi.


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## Petrolero

akjeff,

This vise appears to have no wear; the bearings, washers, lockring, the half-sphere and dust plug are virtually new.   There is almost no movement-related wear to be seen on the sliding surface.   Sure it was black greasy dirty, had some chips inside- but other than surface rust on the top of the movable jaw and a few other spots it is virtually new.  Still had the blue grease that it came with from the mfgr holding in the half-sphere.   I will say it is a heavy beast!

As to the other issue, it's a matter of spindle rotation speed vs the indicated speed on the varispeed display, not which direction the spindle is turning.  I was a bit confused at first because the spindle rotates in the opposite direction depending on which position the motor switch is in, and also which position the back gear is in and until I read the user manual I pulled down I didn't realize the motor switch (which just says 'Hi' and 'Low') is also a rotation reversing switch.  

The issue is, the spindle rotates faster and faster the lower I turn the varispeed selector wheel in terms of what is shown in the tortoise/hare windows.   So they're backwards to what the spindle is doing in terms of speed.   I'm mystified.   The DPO did tell me he changed a bearing in the head.

Back at it today!


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## talvare

Petrolero said:


> akjeff,
> The issue is, the spindle rotates faster and faster the lower I turn the varispeed selector wheel in terms of what is shown in the tortoise/hare windows.   So they're backwards to what the spindle is doing in terms of speed.   I'm mystified.   The DPO did tell me he changed a bearing in the head.


It sounds like the speed control was assembled improperly. I had mine apart several years ago and from what I remember, it is possible to assemble it so that it works backwards.

Ted


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## akjeff

Petrolero said:


> akjeff,
> 
> This vise appears to have no wear; the bearings, washers, lockring, the half-sphere and dust plug are virtually new.   There is almost no movement-related wear to be seen on the sliding surface.   Sure it was black greasy dirty, had some chips inside- but other than surface rust on the top of the movable jaw and a few other spots it is virtually new.  Still had the blue grease that it came with from the mfgr holding in the half-sphere.   I will say it is a heavy beast!
> 
> As to the other issue, it's a matter of spindle rotation speed vs the indicated speed on the varispeed display, not which direction the spindle is turning.  I was a bit confused at first because the spindle rotates in the opposite direction depending on which position the motor switch is in, and also which position the back gear is in and until I read the user manual I pulled down I didn't realize the motor switch (which just says 'Hi' and 'Low') is also a rotation reversing switch.
> 
> The issue is, the spindle rotates faster and faster the lower I turn the varispeed selector wheel in terms of what is shown in the tortoise/hare windows.   So they're backwards to what the spindle is doing in terms of speed.   I'm mystified.   The DPO did tell me he changed a bearing in the head.
> 
> Back at it today!


Sounds like a good score on the vise! They are a pleasure to use. Hopefully, the mill speed issue is an easy fix, and the mill becomes a good score as well! As you've discovered the hi/lo switch is basically a motor reversing switch. In Hi it's forward if the gearbox is in Hi range, and in Low it's forward if you're in Low range. Due to the back gear reversing the spindle rotation in Low range.


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## Petrolero

talvare-

Never underestimate what a DPO can do...   I'll take the control apart and get it working properly.  

Meanwhile, trying to get the y-axis damage repaired.

Thanks to all who replied to help this novice!


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## Janderso

Congratulations and welcome.
Regarding the thing stuck in your power head, can you take a picture of it?
Could you also take a pic of the collets you have?
The BP should have R8 collets, you may have a set of 5C collets which are very common for spin indexers and other mill accessories.
I sure hate to see you damage your new mill.
All of us have done some silly things along the way while we learn the hobby.
Just trying to help.


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## sdelivery

The speed drive uses a small chain, it is wrapped around the speed control shaft backwards.
Go slow all that is required is to work from where the speed control is mounted.
When you take it apart you will understand.
No disconnecting the chain. With it disassembled turn the speed control handle until it unwinds and rewind the correct way.
Many of the after market two times draw bars have a spacer so when the first part of the draw bar threads become worn or damaged it can be cut off and have a second life.


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## Petrolero

Janderso-

Thanks for the welcome and congrats!   

The thing stuck in the head was the spacer for the drawbar-  I got it out by taking a tap and lightly threading it, then screwing in a bolt, then using a long piece of round bar stock, tapping it out from the top of the quill housing.   Took a few iterations as the threads kept turning loose.   It's about 4" long, and hollow.   For sure it's the spacer that sdelivery described just above.   Without it the drawbar will not pull the collet up into the spindle.   Just my bad luck that the dpo dropped it and the drawbar down the bottom of the spindle.   It was precisely the diameter to slide on in then wedge in there good.   I was worried for a bit till I figured a way to extract it.  

The collets are R8 - they mount properly and I have an end-mill installed now-   

I mounted a dial indicator on the way for the y-axis and measured the spindle as it was turning at minimum RPM.  It looks like I may have 0.0005 max runout at the middle position of the spindle.

I removed the x-axis gib, nothing but filthy grease on there.   I was planning on taking the table and saddle off and making sure all the oil lines were not plugged, now I have more incentive to do just that.  No way to tell but I'm thinking this thing has never been apart for cleaning.  It is truly filthy inside and out.   

I have a video I can post of it running but need to figure out how to do that- apparently I can't upload directly to here - and I can't get it to come off my phone for whatever reason-


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## akjeff

Removing the table and saddle for a thorough cleaning is a smart move, and well worth the effort. You'll be making chips in no time!


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## Petrolero

talvare said:


> It sounds like the speed control was assembled improperly. I had mine apart several years ago and from what I remember, it is possible to assemble it so that it works backwards.
> 
> Ted


The power of these forums is astounding!   Thanks to Ted, I fixed this issue in about 5 minutes.   Removed the plastic cover on the speed control panel, then the four cap-head screws and flipped the panel 360 degrees to get the chain running the other way, then reassembled.  Voila!  Fixed!

Thanks, Ted, for giving me this nugget!

Mike


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## hwelecrepair

Glad you got it all running!  Am curious as to what sort of powerfeed you have on the Y, wanna post some pics?

Jon


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## Petrolero

Here's the Y-axis- it's a Servo140 - the X is a Servo 100 -



You can see the broken housing at the top - I glued in the
broken-off piece with JB-weld but I couldn't get the right side of the housing to hold- it's sprung.
I'm shipping these units off to be rebuilt.   




Used the backhoe to get it off the trailer-




This is definitely the brute force method of moving the thing.  It kept crushing
the rollers I put under it - didn't have anything stouter at the time.







Here's the drawbar spacer stuck in the spindle- I had zero idea what this was when I got the
unit running and tried to insert a collet...  My very first rodeo with a machine like this - I was not happy for a bit.



Here's the culprit-

I've pulled the y-axis leadscrew and find it galled and worn by about 30% in the middle of the screw.   Most likely means the X is in the same or worse shape.   So going to replace them and the nuts.   I've got an engine hoist I figure will hold the 48" table.    Question is, will it hold the knee when I pull that to clean it and make sure the oil lines are clear?   Anyone know how much the knee weighs?

Thanks to all!
Mike


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## Firstram

I pulled my knee with an engine hoist, no problems. Strip it down to the bare casting, rip a 2x4 to fit through the Y axis screw hole  Cut it the full length of the knee interior so it cant shift front to back. Use very short rigging and rig it so the casting hangs plumb. Don't forget to remove the knee travel limit screw from the column and it slides right off with the head turned 90°.

Pulling the table with a hoist is sketchy in my opinion. That's a long weight swinging around that needs to end up on a table anyway. Do you have a rolling table or tool box that will support the weight of the table? Pull the X bearings and lead screw, loosen the gib a little and slide the table to the right. Use the knee to set the table on the box, remove the gib once it's supported by the table and roll it out/off. This makes it extremely easy to reinstall too!


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## hwelecrepair

That Servo casting looks to be ok, I wouldnt worry about the crack in it.  

You are gonna pull the knee off to make sure the lube is good?  That seems a bit overkill, unless I am reading it wrong.

Jon


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## Petrolero

I do have a rolling ULINE cart that will hold the table-   I thought to have that to set it down on.   Thought to suspend the table with 4 chains to prevent swing but could just set it down using the knee-   I'll need to flip it over to access the way surfaces to clean them.   

Probably more worried about maneuvering the knee - maybe I'll just leave it hanging from the engine hoist to do the cleaning.


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## Petrolero

Regards pulling the knee - I guess I will pull it while the other stuff is off as I have the engine hoist.   That way I'll know everything is clean and oil lines are open and functioning.


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## Firstram

The knee isn't terrible to handle while it's off the machine, I left mine on cardboard on the floor. Don't try to roll it over the long way, front to back, you'll see what I mean.
Use a 2x4 bolted to the center T slot as a lever to roll the table while it's on the table.

My knee was cursed with slip stick, it groaned and chattered when moving up and down, even with the hand crank.  The PO had the gib adjusted up so high/loose the wiper cover was pushed up, I guess he thought it was too tight. After cleaning the dried filth and replacing the oil meters, I could properly adjust the gib. Now it's silent and smooth!


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## Firstram

Be mindful of the shims in the power feed, put them back in the same place!


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## akjeff

Would be a good idea to order a set of new wipers for all of the ways while it's apart. There's an excellent video on the H&W youtube channel, for breaking down the mill. I'll second the advice to slide the table off onto a cart. Barry shows how it's done in the video, and it's a piece of cake to do.


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## Petrolero

Mine runs pretty smooth with the crank - no creaking or other issues that I can see.   I want to keep it that way, which is why I'm going to pull it while the rest of the items are off.

And, new wipers of course!   And whatever else I find that needs to be done while all this is apart.    What about the oil lines  - my one-shot is chinesium, labeled 'one hunglo' or somesuch.   I think the oiler itself is ok but I'm tempted to replace the lines if they look at all sketchy.


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## akjeff

When I had my circa 1978 Lagun apart, I changed all the oil lines and metering valves. I would have been ****** if one of the hard/brittle original lines failed a couple weeks after re-assembly! They're pretty cheap, and there will never be a better opportunity to do it. The X half of leadscrew nut on my mill had a copper tube that just dripped oil on the top of the screw. I drilled the nut housing so it was direct fed, like the Y half. Again, there's a H&W video with Barry showing how to do that.


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## Petrolero

Got the table off - I made it harder than it had to be because I loosened the gib but then forgot to remove it before I slid it off...
Obviously some wear on the lower right side in the picture - I'm just a beginner hobbyist and am thinking I can probably let this go as-is because I'm probably never going to be as accurate as this wear will cost me.   Amiright?


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## Petrolero

Ok after further investigation it appears the only thing getting oil is the knee- I pumped the chinesium oiler a few times and nothing appearing on the ways at all.   The only sign of oil coming out is below the knee on the ways there.   Just as well I disassembled this thing.


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## Firstram

Looks like you have chrome ways so it would have to be stripped to scrape.  Clean it and use it, don't worry about that little bit of wear. 
I replaced all of my hoses and meters when I tore mine down, buy hose and olives, reuse the nuts. The hoses are difficult to push in by hand, you'll probably need to make a tool. Take a chunk of aluminum or wood and drill a tubing hole through it, cut a slit so it will compress and grab the tubing without crushing it. Squeeze it with a pair of pliers to push the tubing in then slide it off the free end. 

Tie it to the manifold last.



Confirm the oil is flowing before putting it back together.


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## Petrolero

Guess I found a bigger issue...


Firstram, I hope mine looks as nice as yours does when I reassemble.


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## Firstram

It will look as good with kerosene and purple power! 

Can't see that chip when the saddle is installed!


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> It will look as good with kerosene and purple power!
> 
> Can't see that chip when the saddle is installed!


What was inside the chip was the cross-slide locking pin...


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## akjeff

May be enough meat there, so long as it wraps around past the mid point of the lock, that it'll hold just fine. The table locks don't need to be farmer tight, just snugged up.


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## Firstram

Petrolero said:


> What was inside the chip was the cross-slide locking pin...


I was thinking of the unused holes on the other end of the saddle, bummer. You could bolt a piece of plate to the end of the saddle with a tapped hole for the lever and add a 2nd spacer.


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## Janderso

akjeff said:


> Removing the table and saddle for a thorough cleaning is a smart move, and well worth the effort. You'll be making chips in no time!


I think you almost have to. At least I do.


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## Norseman C.B.

Yer into it this far fix it now or cuss yerself later, I lucked out with mine last year and only needed a thorough cleanin
and adjustin ....................


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## Weldingrod1

You should take a look at my Rockwell tear down: recent photos of pulling a knee.

While you have it out, cleannout the chips and close the hole in the back that let's chips in!

Also, note which way those sliding covers go in!!! I reassembled my Rockwell covers backwards 20 years ago... and bent one maybe 7 years ago. Fixed now ;-)

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Petrolero

Weldingrod1- 

I'm planning to pull the knee - am trying to decide whether to use the tractor bucket or engine hoist - guess it'll be the tractor because then I can get it outside to power wash it.   I hope my bucket will lift it.


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## Petrolero

Got the saddle freed of the oil lines and all cleaned up - 

Question to the knowledgeable - I appear to have either brass or steel inserts where the oil lines plug into the saddle.  What keeps the lines from falling out once inserted, simple friction?   I've got new line and meters ordered so I guess you push the new line in as far as it will go and hope for a very tight fit.   Anyone use a dab of silicone sealer around the edge after they're in to ensure they stay put?   I know there's no real pressure on them to come loose but-


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## akjeff

When I replaced mine, the factory lines had a JB Weld like material where the line entered the castings. I used some silicone when I installed the new lines.


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## Firstram

Friction holds them in, they only need to be pushed in 3/4ish. Heat to bend after the tube is in the hole. Try to orient the rolled up bend so the tube tries to hold itself against the casting while you're at it.


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## Petrolero

I made a map of which line from the manifold went to which hole in the saddle- but after thinking about it, I don't think it matters - or does it?


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## Firstram

I replaced all of my meters with 1's, so in my case it didn't matter. If you are keeping the two 2's, they should be plumbed where they belong.


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## Petrolero

> Firstram said:
> 
> 
> 
> I replaced all of my meters with 1's, so in my case it didn't matter. If you are keeping the two 2's, they should be plumbed where they belong.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm doing all of mine with #1's also - I was talking about which line position on the manifold goes to what port in the saddle.  I think it shouldn't matter where they go.
Click to expand...


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## akjeff

What matters is that the proper size meter feeds the appropriate oil passage. The meters have a number stamped on them to indicate the flow rate. On my Lagun, the nuts had #2 meters, and the ways had #3 meters. I'm guessing the higher the number, the higher the flow rate, as the nuts wouldn't need near as much oil feeding them as the ways would.


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## Petrolero

akjeff said:


> What matters is that the proper size meter feeds the appropriate oil passage. The meters have a number stamped on them to indicate the flow rate. On my Lagun, the nuts had #2 meters, and the ways had #3 meters. I'm guessing the higher the number, the higher the flow rate, as the nuts wouldn't need near as much oil feeding them as the ways would.


Akjeff-    H&M said to just use all #1's and don't worry about it.   Mine had zeros and ones.


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## Weldingrod1

Just throwing out a bit of over-the-top insanity, I use oil-rite pumps for this stuff. One pump per hole, and you get one shot of oil each time you apply air pressure. The shot volume can be turned down if you want to. Guaranteed oil for all, and they can reach 1,000 psi on shop air.
You can find blocks of them on ebay; that's where this stack came from. It's going on my Rockwell mill!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## akjeff

Petrolero said:


> Akjeff-    H&M said to just use all #1's and don't worry about it.   Mine had zeros and ones.


Not many folks have laid hands on more BP's than those guys! Should be sound advise  . For my Lagun, I went with Carmen's instructions, he's the USA service guru for Lagun.


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## Petrolero

Question for the group regarding ram maintenance, head tilt maintenance, etc.

I'm going to have to pull the head off the machine when I get the bottom part done - the bolt that rotates the head about the centerline of the quill housing has sheared off sometime in the past - and the DPO or one of them put this bolt on a lathe and turned it down so that it fits in the hole nice and snug but does nothing.    I suppose when I do that I'd be in a good position to remove the ram and clean it up.   I see no way to lube this thing and it's sticking severely at the front of the travel, i.e. where the head is in the full rearward position.

Where do you lube the ram?   What do you use?  Likewise the turret (which moves freely).   I guess there's not a gear which regulates the turret, it just turns by hand?

I have a picture of the bolt that sheared but I can't get it off the phone for some reason.   Other pictures have come off just fine but this one won't show up with the rest of them-

Today I mounted a 2X6 on the table so I could halfway control it and wheeled it out for a session with the power washer.   Most satisfying!

Monday my pard comes over to help with knee removal and cleaning.

Parts are starting to arrive - I've got a message in to the local vo-tech about an opportunity to repair the broken lock bolt housing on the saddle...




I have a new bolt from H&W and it fits pretty snug - won't wobble - there's a temptation to just put it back on but I'd really like to get it fixed while it's off the machine.   I'm thinking braze the missing part in, rather than welding, because the braze is easier to drill back out and thread, vs welding rod.     If anyone has done one of these repairs I'd appreciate your wisdom.    Would have been really, really nice of the DPO to give me that part-


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## Firstram

It would take so much heat to properly braze that I would worry about warping the saddle. 

I would be tempted to try a metal bearing epoxy. Mould release on a bolt, some drilled pins or machine screws to mechanically reinforce the patch and a form to define the outside shape. The form could be a permanent part that's bolted on with the epoxy only forming the threads. 

Hard to do an all metal repair without a functioning mill


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> It would take so much heat to properly braze that I would worry about warping the saddle.
> 
> I would be tempted to try a metal bearing epoxy. Mould release on a bolt, some drilled pins or machine screws to mechanically reinforce the patch and a form to define the outside shape. The form could be a permanent part that's bolted on with the epoxy only forming the threads.
> 
> Hard to do an all metal repair without a functioning mill



Are you saying use JBWeld?   That's my favorite!   My buddy asked me if I thought JBWeld would fix that, laughingly...

Seriously though - I'd be ok with something like this - I just need some lateral stability on the bolt.


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## Firstram

JB should work fine. Spend some time and make a metal cover that looks goodish, and leave it in place to stop the patch from popping off. 16-18 ga sheetmetal is fairly easy to beat into submission!


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> JB should work fine. Spend some time and make a metal cover that looks goodish, and leave it in place to stop the patch from popping off. 16-18 ga sheetmetal is fairly easy to beat into submission!


Firstram-

Where do I lube the ram and other moving parts of the neck?

Thanks!


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## Firstram

There are no lube points there. Loosen and cycle the oil in the best you can or disassemble, clean and lube if necessary. Just cleaning the exposed areas and cycling the ram will help, it did with mine.


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> There are no lube points there. Loosen and cycle the oil in the best you can or disassemble, clean and lube if necessary. Just cleaning the exposed areas and cycling the ram will help, it did with mine.


Oil or grease?   Well you said oil so.

Thanks!


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## Firstram

OIL for sure! Grease is the Devil on sliding machine parts


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> OIL for sure! Grease is the Devil on sliding machine parts


Firstram-

Much obliged.   I'll pull the ram and clean it when I take the head off to replace the busted adjustment bolt.    I'm thinking I'll use H&M's head stand for that - I guess it's heavy enough to withstand the top-heavy head trying to fall over-  And the price is right.


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## akjeff

As already pointed out, no oilers on the ram, just brush a little way oil in the dovetails and and give it a slide through its range every now and then. When you pull the ram, be very careful if using the lift eye( if it has one on it ). Take the eye out and inspect it, and the threads in the ram casting to be sure they're in good shape. And be see that the eye is threaded well into the hole, and the shoulder is seated against the mating surface. Granted, you're not lifting the entire mill with it, but still a good practice to get into. Never trust a lift point you didn't inspect/install yourself. And personally, I never use lifting hardware with "Made in China" on it. Much prefer seeing Crosby USA on the forging.


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## Petrolero

akjeff said:


> As already pointed out, no oilers on the ram, just brush a little way oil in the dovetails and and give it a slide through its range every now and then. When you pull the ram, be very careful if using the lift eye( if it has one on it ). Take the eye out and inspect it, and the threads in the ram casting to be sure they're in good shape. And be see that the eye is threaded well into the hole, and the shoulder is seated against the mating surface. Granted, you're not lifting the entire mill with it, but still a good practice to get into. Never trust a lift point you didn't inspect/install yourself. And personally, I never use lifting hardware with "Made in China" on it. Much prefer seeing Crosby USA on the forging.


Akjeff - thanks for the tips - I'll be lifting the turret off of the machine without the head on so even though it's going to be a lot lighter, it'll still be extremely heavy and nothing puts the sorete in the punch bowl like dropping one of these things - I'm quite certain of that.   

Has anyone used one of those head-removal tools that H&W sells - I'm going to buy one but it would be nice to hear they're just the ticket when removing the head...   Can you safely rotate the head after removal while the weight of the machine is supported by the spindle?

Thanks!
Mike


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## akjeff

It looks like that head removal tool is meant to be solidly bolted to the table( or some other suitable surface ) at all times. That is going to be one very top heavy object. You definitely won't be rotating the head while using it. I'd consider pulling the motor first as well, and get rid of as much weight as possible. I would not allow it to be free standing for any reason.


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## Petrolero

akjeff said:


> It looks like that head removal tool is meant to be solidly bolted to the table( or some other suitable surface ) at all times. That is going to be one very top heavy object. You definitely won't be rotating the head while using it. I'd consider pulling the motor first as well, and get rid of as much weight as possible. I would not allow it to be free standing for any reason.


Strap it to the four corners of the table after removal?


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## Petrolero

Well I've taken Firstram's suggestion and gone with the reinforced JB Weld solution - please put down your beer first so you don't spill it laughing...



Where I started...

















What you see in the last pictures is of course a surrogate bolt - I used shoe polish as a release agent and plan to go back out there this evening when JB is the consistency of hard putty and trim off the excess.   What you see around the perimeter of the patch is silicone sealer to keep JB from leaking out the open edges of the bottom.   

Should be hard enough tomorrow to try to remove the bolt.


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## akjeff

Petrolero said:


> Strap it to the four corners of the table after removal?


I'd keep that sucker either bolted or c-clamped to something substantial enough to prevent it from tipping/ getting knocked over. We have a lot of seismic activity here, so I'm kind of paranoid about such things.


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## Petrolero

akjeff said:


> I'd keep that sucker either bolted or c-clamped to something substantial enough to prevent it from tipping/ getting knocked over. We have a lot of seismic activity here, so I'm kind of paranoid about such things.


Well it bolts to the table - I'd never even think about doing it without bolting it down.   Still, you're depending on the welds holding - this is sold by H&W so one assumes they've engineered it to hold the head.   Still gives me the willies as the thing is so top-heavy.


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## akjeff

Petrolero said:


> Well it bolts to the table - I'd never even think about doing it without bolting it down.   Still, you're depending on the welds holding - this is sold by H&W so one assumes they've engineered it to hold the head.   Still gives me the willies as the thing is so top-heavy.


I'd definitely trust their welds to hold just fine.


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## Petrolero

The JB Weld hardened quicker than I thought - shoe polish worked great - the surrogate bolt spun right out with nary a complaint.  The JB will continue to harden over the next several days to week - but assuming this holds, it's precisely what I was looking for - no shipping it off somewhere to be repaired-    Firstram - much obliged for the suggestion...





The end of the locking shaft is what is visible at the end of the threads.



I'll just have to remember not to tighten 'farmer tight'-



Also pulled out the clockspring while I was out tonight - it was disconnected and little wonder why - recon I need a new one.


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## Firstram

Glad it worked out!


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## Petrolero

Welp-  

This morning I started investigating why the downfeed wasn't working.   The round black collar behind the engaging pin spins - and I did the clutch housing modification as was shown in the H&W video.    I ran the setscrew all the way in but nothing.    Took the clutch cover off and clutch out, started the machine and the gear inside isn't turning.  

Looks like the DPO is also a crook.   He represented that there was nothing wrong with this machine.


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## akjeff

Petrolero said:


> Welp-
> 
> This morning I started investigating why the downfeed wasn't working.   The round black collar behind the engaging pin spins - and I did the clutch housing modification as was shown in the H&W video.    I ran the setscrew all the way in but nothing.    Took the clutch cover off and clutch out, started the machine and the gear inside isn't turning.
> 
> Looks like the DPO is also a crook.   He represented that there was nothing wrong with this machine.


That sucks. It could be the power feed clutch selector isn't engaged. There's an off center pin that engages in a plunger to move it up and down. It could be assembled wrong, and the pin is a sob to get right without the top end being apart. I'll try to find a video of what I'm talking about, as my description sucks!

Start at about 7:50 into the video to see the off center rod and pin that I'm talking about.


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## Petrolero

akjeff said:


> That sucks. It could be the power feed clutch selector isn't engaged. There's an off center pin that engages in a plunger to move it up and down. It could be assembled wrong, and the pin is a sob to get right without the top end being apart. I'll try to find a video of what I'm talking about, as my description sucks!
> 
> Start at about 7:50 into the video to see the off center rod and pin that I'm talking about.


Yep  - watched this about 3 times today.   Maybe if I lower the knee all the way down after I take the head off I'll be able to get to this.   You're right - still have to take the top half off to do it right.   Then if I have it that far down I'll strip it completely and paint, etc.

I think the clutch selector is working right, the collar that sits at the horizontal pin you either pull out or push in to raise or lower the quill is spinning just fine.

Dammit!


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## Petrolero

Today's activity:










Back on - no crushed feet, no cracked iron, mostly clean knee - spanking clean ways and oil passages - very little drama-

Got some parts in today - will start reassembling tomorrow...


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## Firstram

Did you remember to reinstall the knee lock button?


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> Did you remember to reinstall the knee lock button?


Well this machine has two of them - one wouldn't come out-  

I'll have to consult my parts and see if there's a button in there.


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## Petrolero

Petrolero said:


> Well this machine has two of them - one wouldn't come out-
> 
> I'll have to consult my parts and see if there's a button in there.


There is a button - and it's too short- looks like it's been ground off.   Man, the buffoonery of the DPO's who jacked with this machine.

I used JBWeld (again) to secure a small nut to the bolt side of the button, making it long enough for the locking bolt.


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## Petrolero

Got the Knee all back together - and the oiling lines - the DPO had frankensteined the fittings so it was a serious struggle.   But I got it finished.   Tomorrow the saddle goes back on.


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## Petrolero

Petrolero said:


> Got the Knee all back together - and the oiling lines - the DPO had frankensteined the fittings so it was a serious struggle.   But I got it finished.   Tomorrow the saddle goes back on.






Couldn't stand it  - went back out and put the saddle back on - first oil on the reinstalled saddle from the Chinesium one-shot -thru the new lines.  
Firstram- this doesn't look nearly as pristine as yours did...


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## akjeff

Persistence pays off. You'll know that machine inside and out when you're done!


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## Firstram

Petrolero said:


> Firstram- this doesn't look nearly as pristine as yours did...


It looks so much better than it did and I'm sure it will be as smooth as silk. I really got lucky finding a gently used mill, thanks.


akjeff said:


> Persistence pays off. You'll know that machine inside and out when you're done!


This, it's always worth going through an older machine.


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> It looks so much better than it did and I'm sure it will be as smooth as silk. I really got lucky finding a gently used mill, thanks.
> 
> This, it's always worth going through an older machine.



Question for you - what to do about the table?   I'll need to measure it for flatness - not obvious that it's worn but it is pretty beat-up.   What do folk typically do with their table?


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## Firstram

I stoned down the dings and never gave it a 2nd thought about checking for flat. I don't own precision stones, I just flattened one on a diamond lap, it worked well.


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## Weldingrod1

Ypu should plug those two holes in the back of the knee while you have access! They let chips in to the gearing!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Petrolero

Ok so today spent pretty well the full day on the machine.   Successfully got the head off- not as big of a deal as I thought it would be -the head removal stand from H&W worked a dream.   I extended the ram all the way to give me enough room to clear the bolts because I couldn't use the Y-axis.  




I then lowered the knee all the way down - then used straps and the engine hoist to lift the head off the table.









Now I know why the head wouldn't swivel about it's axis- someone seriously abused this machine.   The screws and roll pin were all snapped in the gear you see above.

I had a bit of a time separating the variable speed drive and motor from the quill housing - the top of the spindle was mushroomed some and I didn't know if there was a snap ring I should be removing-  Some light taps with a bar and mallet freed it up.




I made use of the engine stand to hold the quill housing for teardown and repair...



Then I pulled the turret-



Took it outside to work on the snapped cap-head screws on the gear-








And then there's what's going on with the head side of this...



So the only way I can think of to generate this kind of damage is to torque down the locks, then use an impact gun on the adjustment nut.   Intentional, in other words.

Question to the group - now that I have the turret off, will the ram come apart if I remove the adjustment gear for the ram?

Thanks!
Mike


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## Petrolero

Weldingrod1 said:


> Ypu should plug those two holes in the back of the knee while you have access! They let chips in to the gearing!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Too late - the knee is back on.   I can see the utility, however, of plugging the gap at the rear of the knee -that should prevent most chips from entering.  Sort of like the way wiper but wider.


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## Petrolero

You've seen this before but now here's the worm gear - it will not turn.  



This is the best I could do with the cell phone camera-   Looks like this is deliberate sabotage as both the main shaft and retaining ring have been also milled down so there's no way to get them out.    

Any suggestions, or do I just not understand what I am looking at.    It's plain the shaft that runs this worm gear is broken off and subsequently turned down.

Thanks!
Mike


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## Firstram

Remove that set screw, it holds the shaft in. You may need to drill and tap the end of the broken shaft for a stud, you could use a nut and sleeve or a slide hammer to pull it out


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## Weldingrod1

It looks like it sheared at the step; no surprise, that's a big stress concentrator. Not evil, just stupid 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> Remove that set screw, it holds the shaft in. You may need to drill and tap the end of the broken shaft for a stud, you could use a nut and sleeve or a slide hammer to pull it out


Firstram-

Setscrew is out - the worm gear will not turn at all unless I use a chisel and hammer to get it to turn slightly, so it's jammed in there.
I agree, I'm going to have to drill and tap the broken stud to get it out- I'll probably take it to a machine shop where they can set it up in a Bridgeport mill and do it the right way...   I tried briefly to hand-drill it but no luck.


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## Weldingrod1

Can you turn a guide sleeve that fits in the bigger hole? I think you need to drill and tap the shaft to hook up a slide hammer for pulling the broken shaft.

Can a Bridgeport owner confirm how the worm attaches to its shaft?

One other semi-crazy thought: you could run a carbide tipped oscillating saw between the worm and the casting to cut off the far end of the shaft! Then slide the worm to close the saw cut, clamp, and repeat on the other end (if needed). Once you have the worm out, you would need to add a shim washer to make up the saw kerf.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Petrolero

Weldingrod1 said:


> Can you turn a guide sleeve that fits in the bigger hole? I think you need to drill and tap the shaft to hook up a slide hammer for pulling the broken shaft.
> 
> Can a Bridgeport owner confirm how the worm attaches to its shaft?


According to the diagram, its fitted with a woodruff key to keep shaft and worm bound together.
I'd turn a guide sleeve if I had a lathe-  need the Bridgeport to fix the Bridgeport...

I'm off to a machine shop with it this morning- I'll pay someone with the right tools to do it properly.


Weldingrod1 said:


> One other semi-crazy thought: you could run a carbide tipped oscillating saw between the worm and the casting to cut off the far end of the shaft! Then slide the worm to close the saw cut, clamp, and repeat on the other end (if needed). Once you have the worm out, you would need to add a shim washer to make up the saw kerf.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Firstram

Petrolero said:


> I'll pay someone with the right tools to do it properly.


Sometimes it’s just easier. Sort of like going out to dinner.


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## Petrolero

Firstram said:


> Sometimes it’s just easier. Sort of like going out to dinner.


Found a willing machinist in a neighboring town (40 minutes away) who will do precisely what has been recommended- set up on a Bridgeport mill-  indicate in the hole where the adjustment bolt should be - drill and tap for a sturdy bolt to go down in - use prybars or other appropriate instruments to pull out the broken shaft like a bad tooth...

He says to call him back on Friday and he should have it finished.   Meanwhile, new parts inbound from H&W - and I have a few days to clean up all the innards of the Quill Housing.


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## jwmelvin

That’s a good call; it will be great to have it taken care of. Cleaning and reassembling everything in the quill housing is a substantial task. It took me at least a few days.


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## Petrolero

Decided to go whole hog - I had 0.0005 runout before I took the quill apart to clean it so maybe should have left well enough alone but found a ton (TON!) of soft grease inside the quill and of course the bearings, especially the lower one, acted like I flushed trash into them.  

I have a bearing kit on the way.  

If the only lube getting into these bearings is supposed to be spindle oil, how come there's grease in here?

I found a bit of corrosion on some of the components inside the quill.   It's obvious to me that some DPO has cleaned this machine with a power washer.

Top of spindle is mushroomed over so I'll take a grinding wheel and straighten that out so it'll go back up into the drive housing easily when the time comes.


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## Weldingrod1

A lot of spindles are grease lubricated. I actually tried that on my Rockwell, but it heated up too fast. I cleaned it back out and give it a good shot of oil before each operating day.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Petrolero

Weldingrod1 said:


> A lot of spindles are grease lubricated. I actually tried that on my Rockwell, but it heated up too fast. I cleaned it back out and give it a good shot of oil before each operating day.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk






Bearings came in late this afternoon - I've got the spindle rebuilt and back in the quill.    Easy to do with Barry's video.   I used grease, but only a little - about a third of the way around the race after packing.   He says if you use too much the spindle will heat up.


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## Petrolero

Finally got the housing back - got it painted and have started reassembly.  The quill was not easy to get back in- extreme fitting tolerance...    When I did get it back in, it's quite stiff near the very top but I can move it by hand throughout most of its travel.

Of course, with all the care I used in cleaning and keeping up with parts, I've still managed to lose the snap-ring that holds the microscrew in...

Update - my buddy found it on the floor some distance away-   How in the world does this stuff happen?

Back to assembly-


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## Petrolero

Petrolero said:


> Finally got the housing back - got it painted and have started reassembly.  The quill was not easy to get back in- extreme fitting tolerance...    When I did get it back in, it's quite stiff near the very top but I can move it by hand throughout most of its travel.
> 
> Of course, with all the care I used in cleaning and keeping up with parts, I've still managed to lose the snap-ring that holds the microscrew in...
> 
> Update - my buddy found it on the floor some distance away-   How in the world does this stuff happen?
> 
> Back to assembly-





Got the power head and quill housing mated - 

Worm gear should arrive today, then I can mount the head on the ram - 

I'm going to need a tramming device - I saw one in a video that mounts in the collet - has space for two dial indicators.   Anyone have any recommendations?


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## Firstram

I use an Indicol type holder with a test indicator, those duel indicator tramming devices are kind of limited to tramming only. An indicator holder has many additional uses such as tramming your vise and locating hole centers.


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## Petrolero

Got it back mounted to the ram and running - there were a few 'moments' when I didn't think it was working right as I'm such a noob that even staying in a Holiday Inn Express last night did me no good...

It appears now to be working correctly, the sheared head rotation issue is fixed, though the rotation of the head is quite stiff.

Quill downfeed works the way it should - it disengages properly when the microscrew nut is pushed down.

Next step - put some metal in the vise and see how well it cuts.


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