# Man I can’t win for losing!



## COMachinist (May 31, 2018)

The bearings are going out on my lathe, and now the motor on the PM 932M PDF is dying. It starts but it turns real slow the in about 10 or 15 sec it will speed up  to normal speed. If I shut it down the it does the same thing again. I down know cap about electric motors. Could it be a cap gone bad? It kind of rattles a little when it is turning slow, until it get up to speed. I think it is out of warranty, it sat in the shop for about 13 months untill I made room for it in the shop, this spring. If it is dying, I think it is VFD 3ph time.
Thanks for any help, it is appreciated.
CH


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## Ray C (May 31, 2018)

COMachinist said:


> The bearings are going out on my lathe, and now the motor on the PM 932M PDF is dieing. It starts but it turns real slow the in about 10 or 15 sec it will speed up  to normal speed. If I shut it down the it does the same thing again. I down know cap about electric motors. Could it be a cap gone bad? It kind of ratles a little when it is turning slow, untill it get up to speed. I thing it out of warranty, it sat in the shop for about 13 months untill I made room for it if it dieing, I think it is VFD 3ph time.
> Thanks for any help, it is appreciated.
> CH



Sounds like a start cap for sure.  Easily replaced.  Call Matt.  Warranty is 3 years.

Fret not... Easy Shpeasy to fix.

Ray


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## COMachinist (May 31, 2018)

What frame 3ph motor does it take to replace it with a 3 hp? What brand VFD is a good reliable unit for thi application?
CH


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## COMachinist (May 31, 2018)

Ray where are the caps to replace? Are they up on the motor or some place in the boxes.
Thanks
CH


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## dlane (May 31, 2018)

Should be a hump cover on the motor, cap is under it


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## Ray C (May 31, 2018)

COMachinist said:


> What frame 3ph motor does it take to replace it with a 3 hp? What brand VFD is a good reliable unit for thi application?
> CH





COMachinist said:


> Ray where are the caps to replace? Are they up on the motor or some place in the boxes.
> Thanks
> CH



Matt will know what frame type that motor is.  He may even sell 3ph replacements.   The ones he used to carry were really decent and affordably priced.

If the motor has a hump or contour on it similar to what is shown, the cap is in there.   If there are no contours like that, it's inside the box.   I don't know if your motor has both a Run and Start cap or just a Start cap.   They serve two different purposes but, your symptom sounds like a start cap.  The run cap only balances-out the load to make it less inductive.  When a Run cap goes bad, it usually does not impact operation.






Ray


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## COMachinist (May 31, 2018)

Ray
My motor is big black motor with cooling fins and big square flat kind of box. Ill get a pix of it shortly. I emailed PM this evening.will know more tomorrow.
CH


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## darkzero (May 31, 2018)

Yup start cap, start cap blew on my PM45 years ago when I was working a project that required starting & stopping the spindle repeatedly. Capacitors don't like that. Called Matt & he told it was just a cap, would send me one under warranty, even offered to send me a whole motor if I didn't think it was a cap. 

Checked the start cap & sure enough it showed dead on my multimeter. On my motor the start cap was China & the run cap was German. I declined Matt's generous offer, I just went to my local Grainger the next morning, bought a replacement cap & a run cap, they had em in stock. Replaced both & never had the issue since. They didnxt cost much, one was like $7, the other was $15.

The stock caps are hard wired & the replacement caps had blade terminals. So I cut the stock ones off, crimped on some blade connectors & simply plugged the new ones in. Now if it ever happens to me again, replacement will be very quick & simple.


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## darkzero (May 31, 2018)

Don't know if you have the same motor but I remember some PM932s had the same motor as the PM45 & some didn't.

Here's a thread where I showed mine. Best to look look at the caps in your motor anyway in case they are different.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/motor-capacitor-replacement-s.61855/#post-509691


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## COMachinist (Jun 1, 2018)

OK Thanks guys, removed the cover on the motor box. Here is the caps I don't know what the caps do, but it stands to reason the 450vac 255uF would be the starter, and the run cap would be the 220vac 20uF cap? If I'm wrong then you will know that I speak the truth when I say I don't any thing about Motors.LOL Yes the breaker is off and the machine is unplugged, for all you safenicks. So which one needs to be replaced? I saw that the tag list IP55 enclose, is that the frame? Oh it won't run this morning it just slowly turn. So with the machines down both lathe and mill. Looks like a fishing day, taking the boat to the mountain Lake where it is cool. YEA!
CH


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## markba633csi (Jun 1, 2018)

The black one 200uF, 220V looks like the start cap.
Replace that one and you should be good to go. 
Mark


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## cg285 (Jun 1, 2018)

test them. do you have either an ohm meter or meter with cap tester?


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Jun 1, 2018)

I'm only saying this because of you stating you have no knowledge of these motors and with mine being very close to the same I will pass on a warning.....Be very careful to not touch the caps terminals until you short them out and make sure they are totally discharged.  I'm told they act as fast discharge batteries that can hold and let loose enough power to stop your heart and feel much like a taser gun hit.


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## cg285 (Jun 1, 2018)

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> I'm only saying this because of you stating you have no knowledge of these motors and with mine being very close to the same I will pass on a warning.....Be very careful to not touch the caps terminals until you short them out and make sure they are totally discharged.  I'm told they act as fast discharge batteries that can hold and let loose enough power to stop your heart and feel much like a taser gun hit.



hahahahaha
well, it won't be charged just sitting there
pretending it was charged(which it won't be) it might hurt your elbow when you jerked back and hit something


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## COMachinist (Jun 1, 2018)

Well no body has the caps for this POS chinese motor, in Colorado Springs including Grainger. So I think think it will be a 2 hp Baldor 3ph and a vfd. then I can build the belt drive for it. I hate having to fix equipment.
Thanks for your help guys.
CH


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## darkzero (Jun 1, 2018)

COMachinist said:


> Well no body has the caps for this POS chinese motor, in Colorado Springs including Grainger. So I think think it will be a 2 hp Baldor 3ph and a vfd. then I can build the belt drive for it. I hate having to fix equipment.
> Thanks for your help guys.
> CH



Just because a cap failed & no one has the caps in stock in your area, doesn't necessarily make it a "POS chinese motor". Not sure if you are having other problems with it though. Caps fail, even on Baldors. Just saying. 

A 3ph vfd conversion will probably serve you best but give Matt a call, he'll take care of you and get you up & running in the meantime. If you would like to try to get it running sooner, see if you have any electric motor repair shops around you.


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## COMachinist (Jun 1, 2018)

cg285 said:


> hahahahaha
> well, it won't be charged just sitting there
> pretending it was charged(which it won't be) it might hurt your elbow when you jerked back and hit something


Thanks for the warning about them being charged they were soildered in so I just cut them out with a pair insulated cuters. The white one arced with good snap. I know about cap and motors had to replace the cap in the water well pump last year. Got zaped good then. 
Thanks any way.


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## COMachinist (Jun 1, 2018)

darkzero said:


> Just because no one has the caps in stock in area area & a cap blew, doesn't necessarily make it a "POS chinese motor". Not sure if you are having ither problems with it though. Caps fail, even on Baldors. Just saying.
> 
> A 3ph vfd conversion will probably serve you best but give Matt a call, he'll take care of you and get you up & running in the meantime.



I did he offered to send more of the wang chow caps. I don’t know if it is still in warranty or note and I’ll be damned if I’m paying for more chinese junk electronics. Theses caps did not have more than 10 hrs on them. I just started using the machine this spring (April & May) he said he could not find a shipping date with my name. So not a problem. I’ll just fix it get on with my projects.
Thanks
CH


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## Mitch Alsup (Jun 1, 2018)

COMachinist said:


> Well no body has the caps for this POS chinese motor,
> CH



When I googled "250uF 220V capacitor"
 I got lots of hits with things looking like the one bad one you have now.

Also note:: it is often the case where getting a higher voltage A/C capacitor will mean it works for a longer time before crapping out.

Final note: are you sure the start capacitor <rotary> switch is not the thing that crapped out?


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## Muskt (Jun 1, 2018)

OK, I'll jump in here, also.
A few months ago, I started getting ready to think about a 3-phase/VFD mod for my 932.
I already have a VFD, so a motor & some assorted stuff seemed like all that was necessary.
First thing I did was to remove the existing motor and do some measuring and create a napkin sketch.
After doing that, I contacted Electric Motor Wholesale near me in Delaware.  (Good People, and Good Prices).
I decided on a 2 HP metric motor.  I cannot remember the name of the salesman (Paul, I think).  We went through several motors, & he told me that nothing bigger than 1 HP had the shaft size that was on the existing motor.  WTF,??????  
(I'm going from memory, now.)  I think that the existing motor has a 19mm shaft, and every 1.5, 2, & 3 HP in the catalogs have 24mm shafts.
This obviously creates a problem.  His best idea was to purchase the motor that I wanted and disassemble it & turn the end of the shaft down and re-cut the keyway.  I did not do anything, yet.  3-phase motors are supposedly very simple and do not employ the centrifugal switch as in single phase motors.  I DO NOT KNOW!!  Since I have a lathe, it would seem to be a relatively simple procedure, except that it just hurts to even think about butchering a new $260 motor.
Here is a link to a 1.5 HP motor that I believe fits.
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/LEESON-192065/
Here is a link to a 2,0 HP motor.
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/LEESON-192206/

After opening either of the links, look for the "files" button (near the left center) and open it.  Then open the "motor drawing".  That gives all the dimensions.

Best to you
Jerry in Delaware


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## ttabbal (Jun 1, 2018)

I think I would use my lathe to turn a bushing to adapt the new motor to the existing pulley rather than try turning the motor shaft. It would have to stick out a bit, but that's nothing a spacer can't fix.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Jun 2, 2018)

0


cg285 said:


> hahahahaha
> well, it won't be charged just sitting there
> pretending it was charged(which it won't be) it might hurt your elbow when you jerked back and hit something



I guess I don't understand your comedy context here so if you would be so kind as to let me in on the joke I would appreciate it!   Not trying to stir up the $h!t pot just trying to learn so if you have further factual knowledge on the subject please share that with us.
I'm assuming you know more then me about how these "caps" work however by your statement it would seem that might not be the case.....So I may be wrong here but this is what I learned and if this is not correct please kindly explain where my mistake is.....
   A Cap is a fast discharge power storage device (a kind of "battery" that both very quickly charges and then is capable of expelling its total stored power charge all at once in a split second) correct? So If this is correct, that would mean had this motor been plugged in recently (which we know it was) then the likelyhood that one if not both of those caps will indeed be energized and will definitely give you a good shock unless it is somehow discharged. According to the OP's statement, "The white one arced with good snap" confirms it was in Fact energized and would have done more then make you hit your elbow! 
 Yes capacitors will usually slowly de-Energize over a period of time however how long that takes depends on how the circuit is wired
I am aware that not all caps will be "Dangerous" to the human body however I do know they can produce a big enough Bite to kill someone as well or at least its theoretically possible and I'm not willing to test that theory myself.


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## cg285 (Jun 2, 2018)

first off it is amperage that is potentially dangerous, not voltage. if it was possible (i'm sure someone will go on a google search now) to measure the amperage of a capacitor it would be in milli-nano seconds. way back in electronics school we used to zap each other, usually on the back of the neck, (on the sly) with 700v charged capacitors and no one suffered more than 1 second.

i suppose if your capacitor was the size of a house it would be possible. my electronics teacher used to plug in a lamp cord, arc it to show it was hot then hold on to it with both hands to prove he wouldn't die from it. then offer it to the students - no takers of course haha.

monday while wiring my brother's auto transfer sw i accidentally got a hold of 240v 400a service. i'm still here


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## Cadillac (Jun 2, 2018)

cg285 said:


> first off it is amperage that is potentially dangerous, not voltage. if it was possible (i'm sure someone will go on a google search now) to measure the amperage of a capacitor it would be in milli-nano seconds. way back in electronics school we used to zap each other, usually on the back of the neck, (on the sly) with 700v charged capacitors and no one suffered more than 1 second.
> 
> i suppose if your capacitor was the size of a house it would be possible. my electronics teacher used to plug in a lamp cord, arc it to show it was hot then hold on to it with both hands to prove he wouldn't die from it. then offer it to the students - no takers of course haha.
> 
> monday while wiring my brother's auto transfer sw i accidentally got a hold of 240v 400a service. i'm still here



You are exactly right it’s not voltage but amperage that will KILL you. It only takes a minuscule about and I wouldn’t want to find out. I have family that are electricians and high voltage line man. I forgot the numbers but it would surprise you how little it is.
   You are very lucky with you transfer switch mishap. With high amps it’s more of a explosion than shock! U Should have bought a lottery ticket!


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## Mitch Alsup (Jun 2, 2018)

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> 0
> 
> I'm assuming you know more then me about how these "caps" work however by your statement it would seem that might not be the case.....So I may be wrong here but this is what I learned and if this is not correct please kindly explain where my mistake is.....
> 
> A Cap is a fast discharge power storage device (a kind of "battery" that both very quickly charges and then is capable of expelling its total stored power charge all at once in a split second) correct?



Not quite::

A capacitor is a device used to store charge. The amount of charge stored is linearly dependent on the voltage across the terminals of the capacitor.

A battery is a device used to store charge. The amount of charge stored is not linearly dependent on the voltage across the terminals of the battery.

There are fast capacitors--that the military uses to put energy into big lasers. Here a 1 farad 2000V capacitor can discharge in 1 nanosecond (1/1,000,000 of a second) This is fast ! 1/60 of a second is SLOW.

There are a range of medium speed capacitors used in radio

And there are slow capacitors used in motor control--this is what we are talking about--slow capacitors operate at a rate commensurate with human activities. 

Motor capacitors are oil/fluid filled dielectric capacitors. The fluid increases the capacitance and decreases the size and cost of the capacitor. Electrolytic capacitors do not have anything resembling speed and when used as the backing capacitor in an energy delivery system and backed up with a host of faster and smaller capacitors in order to deliver energy at low impedance at high frequencies.



> So If this is correct, that would mean had this motor been plugged in recently (which we know it was) then the likelyhood that one if not both of those caps will indeed be energized and will definitely give you a good shock unless it is somehow discharged. According to the OP's statement, "The white one arced with good snap" confirms it was in Fact energized and would have done more then make you hit your elbow!
> Yes capacitors will usually slowly de-Energize over a period of time however how long that takes depends on how the circuit is wired
> I am aware that not all caps will be "Dangerous" to the human body however I do know they can produce a big enough Bite to kill someone as well or at least its theoretically possible and I'm not willing to test that theory myself.



Electrolytic capacitors rarely store energy for more than a few seconds after being turned off.
The capacitors in a 26KV TV tube power supply can hold a charge for MONTHS without self discharge.


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## cg285 (Jun 2, 2018)

Cadillac said:


> You are exactly right it’s not voltage but amperage that will KILL you. It only takes a minuscule about and I wouldn’t want to find out. I have family that are electricians and high voltage line man. I forgot the numbers but it would surprise you how little it is.
> You are very lucky with you transfer switch mishap. With high amps it’s more of a explosion than shock! U Should have bought a lottery ticket!



nah, i'm ahead on the lottery - never played but i've (and others) have been shocked many, many times without issues.. i have found that those who have little understanding about electricity are scared poopless.

no one has every been killed by a capacitor - unless someone saying boo will kill you

and actually i stated it wrong. technically it is current that CAN kill you but the way i see it you can't have current without amps so it's just the way you say it.

i occasionally, but repeatedly, work on electric motors and a/c units and have yet to find a capacitor charged after power is pulled. for me to charge one i would have to power the unit up and while powered up remove one wire


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## Silverbullet (Jun 2, 2018)

If you get the right range on the capacitors your ok. Better American made will last longer , I'd buy a spare since there cheap and easy repair . I don't think they have a shelf life if they do I bet it's a real long time.


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## COMachinist (Jun 3, 2018)

Muskt said:


> OK, I'll jump in here, also.
> A few months ago, I started getting ready to think about a 3-phase/VFD mod for my 932.
> I already have a VFD, so a motor & some assorted stuff seemed like all that was necessary.
> First thing I did was to remove the existing motor and do some measuring and create a napkin sketch.
> ...


Yep looked at that thread and it just ended with no resolution. It was a dead end didn't say if the conversion was done or if the motor worked. That is the problem here a lot of these threads end without useful information. I'm not buying another motor just to see if it will work. I also saw another thread about a Chinese motor from Matt that was a drop in but here again no other info on how it worked out, or if the motor lasted. or is it like most other Chinese motors that let the smoke out a week after you install them. Someone ask why the gear can't be bored to 24mm and keyed  for the new shaft but no other info on doing that either. So I don't no anything more than when I started out. darn we are machinist of sort, right why not make a new gear? 
Also I took the caps in to town to every electrical and motor store including Grainger and no one had a cap that would work or so I was told. They all said it was weird size cap 200uF 250 Volts, the only caps at 200uF was 125 volts. I did find a 200uF 330 volt cap but has to be ordered which I did, that should be here in a week of so,just to get the mill going until I can get the VFD/motor, bearings and belt drive done then I want have to worry about hung chow electronics.  Besides this mill has leaked oil from the day I uncrated it, The quality of these mills are not better than any other Chinese junk. I just wanting the machine to work when I turn it on. I 'm not in business I'm just a hobby shop doing stuff around the farm here, I am sick and tired having to work on, repair reseal clean up oil spots all over the mill just drill and thread a hole. If I had the room I would have bought a nice reman Bridgeport, with out a second thought. to bad nobody in the states makes a good hobby sized mill.
Thanks
CH


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## Muskt (Jun 3, 2018)

CH, I did not complete the mod.  My existing motor is still running OK, & I just didn't feel like spending more money--YET.

All of the measurements appeared that the two motors I provided links to would fit, except for the shaft size.  I feel that if/when I do replace the motor, I will go with the "turn the shaft" option instead of fabbing an adapter and riser.  It looks like the motor would need to be raised somewhere around 3 inches--give or take a bit.

On a side note.  I moved to Delaware from Alaska a little over 3 years ago.  While living up there, I had a Grizz lathe (10 years), & Grizz mill (6 years), and Grizz bandsaw (7-8 years).  I repowered the Grizz lathe with a Dayton DC motor & controller and repurposed the original motor.  All of the original motors functioned properly.  Now here in Delaware, I have a PM 1236--I did change the motor on it; but repurposed the original motor to a homemade 2x72 belt grinder.  I also have the PM932 mill, and a Harbor Freight band saw with original motors.  I am not saying that those Chinlee motors are great/wonderful/perfect; however, all 6 of mine worked.  You may be the victim of the Chinlee equivalent of a "Friday just before quitting time" built motor.  

You mentioned an oil leak on the mill.  Where?  Mine started dripping off the head, near the right front corner about 2-3 months ago.  It was getting progressively worse.  I removed both shifter levers (pin punch) and the faceplate.  The leak was coming from the 1-2-3 lever shaft.  I emailed Matt, with the description and part number (from the manual).  3 days later 2 new seals arrived with no invoice or bill.  Easy fix.  

I hope you get it sorted out, & I understand your frustrations.

Best to you,
Jerry in Delaware.


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## COMachinist (Jun 4, 2018)

Hi Jerry
 Yea thanks for sharing the info. My oil leak is also at the right front corner as well. over night it will leak a spot about the size of a golf ball it is getting to be a pain for sure. this mill sat in the crate for about 13 mo while I got the shop ready for it's install. I had a hip replacement and shoulder surgery over that time and could not do much in the shop so it sat. All of the oil leaked out of the head during that time man what a mess. I think I'll convert to a belt drive get rid of the gearbox and oil and replace spindle bearings for the VFD. Ill most likely use a timing belt and pulleys like I used on my CNC conversion mill.
Thank 
CH


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## COMachinist (Jun 6, 2018)

“The black one 200uF, 220V looks like the start cap.
Replace that one and you should be good to go. 
Mark”
Hi All
Well installed 2 new caps, and motor still won’t start it just spins real slow. So looks like this will be a while before I m back to making chips. My Luck just keeps getting worse. Darn it, I have a couple projects I wanted to finish. Looks like Ill be repairing equipment again, or should I say still.
Oh well
CH


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