# Suitable Motor For Logan 200?



## Nogoingback

I'm thinking ahead a bit to when my 200 rebuild will get a new motor, since I'm thinking about adding a 
VFD.  The old motor is a Walker Turner with a frame labeled 118D which appears obsolete.  After measuring
up the mount on the drive box and looking at NEMA frame dimensions it looks as though a NEMA 56 
frame will fit.  Has anyone changed out their motor to this frame, and if so were there any problems
with the fit?


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## Ulma Doctor

the 56 frame is loosly considered a universal fit motor.
i'm not familiar with a 118d frame.
the 56 should have a 5/8 shaft,
unless it is a 56HZ frame (7/8" shaft).
you may need to account for differing shaft diameters between your motor and the replacement


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## wa5cab

The Frame size to get a 1/2" diameter single-ended shaft is 48.  Other mounting dimensions are similar to the 56.  These were once common but are beginning to be more difficult to find, at least with certain options.

Also, don't accidentally buy a 56C frame size motor.  This is flange mounted.


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## CluelessNewB

I'm guessing the WT motor has a 5/8" shaft.  If it's capacitor start I'm also guessing it's a model KAB5 (maybe with some letter after it)  The attached document shows the Walker Turner motors and frame sizes.   Atlas also sold motors made by Kingston-Conley that have similar frame sizes with some minor differences like the location of the starting capacitor.  

Logan sells a replacement motor that is a 56C frame (flange mount) but it also has a footed base.


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## TomKro

The foot mount 56 frame motors appear to fit pretty well, but you may need to pad it up a bit so the motor j-box can clear the ear on the casting used for tension adjustment. 

I believe an extra 5/8 inch or so was required - just longer bolts and a few extra washers - unless you get fancy and turn four nice pads.


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## Nogoingback

Thanks for all your replies.  I spent some time measuring and I think a 56 will fit IF the mounting base is slotted and the electrical box doesn't interfere.  I found a Marathon in
3 phase that has no capacitor and no electrical box to interfere with the drive box.  My Walker Turner has the capacitor mounted on the opposite side of all the modern motors
I looked at online: it's actually a pretty tight fit around the motor.  None of the Baldors that I could find will fit for that reason.  I need to look through Marathon's listings for single
phase 220 motors: if I find something that fits I'm GTG since my breaker panel resides right next to where the lathe is located.

I'll also have a look at the 48 frame and see if it's possible.


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## wa5cab

Remember that the 48 frame has a 1/2" diameter output shaft.  Which would require you to find a new motor pulley or bush the existing one.

It is possible to relocate the start capacitor.  But you will have to completely disassembly the motor to do the conversion.  If you have to go that route, you're probably better off taking the motor to a rewind shop and having them do it.  The two wires going to the capacitor would have to be rerouted.  Plus two holes drilled and tapped and a clearance hole for the wires drilled.


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## Nogoingback

Hmm, maybe I'll stick with a 56.


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## wa5cab

That sounds wise.  And the 56 is far more common.  Your only problems should be the location of the capacitor and the location of the junction box.  Some 56 frame motors have the junction box cast integral with the right bearing carrier.  That would solve that clearance issue, leaving only the capacitor location to solve.


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## Nogoingback

I trolled through the Marathon catalog and found some 115V motors which have split phase starting, and therefore no capacitor.  I know running amperage is higher with 115,
but it will have a dedicated outlet from the CB panel, and it's no worse than my drill press.  They have no junction box on the side, so no problem mounting
them.  I'm also going to take some careful measurements to see if a 56 frame capacitor start motor will fit.  Marathon has a few with no junction box hanging off the side.


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## CluelessNewB

Split phase motors are not the best choice for high starting loads.


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## wa5cab

I agree with Rich.  With all of the belts and gears that may be in the drive train, an engine lathe is not a good candidate for a split phase motor.  Also try WW Grainger.  They aren't cheap but do carry a lot of different capacitor start motors.  One word of warning - if you do buy one with a thermal overload breaker, do NOT buy one with automatic reset. It will re-start itself as soon as it cools off.


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## CluelessNewB

If you are still interested in 3 phase you may want to check out the Leeson E116738 it's an OPD (open drip proof) rather than an TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) but it has no exterior junction box or capacitor.  3/4 hp.  

Here is one site that has it: (I have never purchaased from them so I can't recommend or discourage)   
 http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/3-4-hp-1725-rpm-56-frame-208-230-460-volts-open-drip-leeson-electric-motor-e116738/#sthash.1O3tPpV0.dpbs

Drawing with dimensions: 
http://www.leeson.com/CnxDocRequest/PublishedPDF/2015/documents/SW Drawing_607-0191_B_1898148_20.pdf


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## TomKro

Here's a close up of a Leeson with a capacitor and the position of the J-box with respect to the ear on the casting.  The motor is already padded up.




This particular setup is not using the stock pulley (someone bushed it for a 1/2 inch shaft, and the setscrew is stuck - still have to fix that).  The motor will have to be nudged to the right a bit once the proper stepped pulley is installed. 

This is a frame 56 Leeson Cat No. 110013.00, Model C6C17FB2K.  I believe they're available on line for about $230.  It's 120/240 single phase, but no thermal overload.  I got lucky and picked it up NOS for about $100. 

I happen to have a piece of small angle iron (future light mount) in the vicinity and it appears there's still a bit of room left to let the motor swing up more.   Sort of tight, but it does fit. 

Hope this helps.

TomKro


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## Nogoingback

CluelessNewB said:


> Split phase motors are not the best choice for high starting loads.



Are the starting loads all that high on a 10" Logan?  The reason I ask is that one source I came across this morning indicated that split phase motors are OK for lathes, as well as
fans, etc.:



"Applications of Split Phase Induction Motor
This type of motors are cheap and are suitable for easily starting loads where the frequency of starting is limited. This type of motor is not used for drives which require more than 1 KW because of the low starting torque. The various applications are as follows:-

Used in the washing machine, and air conditioning fans.
The motors are used in mixer grinder, floor polishers.
Blowers, Centrifugal pumps
Drilling and lathe machine."


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## Nogoingback

CluelessNewB said:


> If you are still interested in 3 phase you may want to check out the Leeson E116738 it's an OPD (open drip proof) rather than an TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) but it has no exterior junction box or capacitor.  3/4 hp.
> 
> Here is one site that has it: (I have never purchaased from them so I can't recommend or discourage)
> http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/3-4-hp-1725-rpm-56-frame-208-230-460-volts-open-drip-leeson-electric-motor-e116738/#sthash.1O3tPpV0.dpbs
> 
> Drawing with dimensions:
> http://www.leeson.com/CnxDocRequest/PublishedPDF/2015/documents/SW Drawing_607-0191_B_1898148_20.pdf




I think I'm going to stay with single phase if possible since I've got it at the breaker panel already.  I will have another look at Leeson though.  Open drip proof is 
OK with me: that's mostly what I've been looking at.


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## Nogoingback

TomKro said:


> Here's a close up of a Leeson with a capacitor and the position of the J-box with respect to the ear on the casting.  The motor is already padded up.
> 
> View attachment 141192
> 
> 
> This particular setup is not using the stock pulley (someone bushed it for a 1/2 inch shaft, and the setscrew is stuck - still have to fix that).  The motor will have to be nudged to the right a bit once the proper stepped pulley is installed.
> 
> This is a frame 56 Leeson Cat No. 110013.00, Model C6C17FB2K.  I believe they're available on line for about $230.  It's 120/240 single phase, but no thermal overload.  I got lucky and picked it up NOS for about $100.
> 
> I happen to have a piece of small angle iron (future light mount) in the vicinity and it appears there's still a bit of room left to let the motor swing up more.   Sort of tight, but it does fit.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> TomKro



Thanks Tom, this is useful info: I'll get the drawing and compare with the other motors I'm looking at as well.  I notice that yours is a 3/4 HP motor:  did you feel that 1/2 isn't enough?
A tight fit, but it looks as though the capacitor has enough room which was my main
concern.  I've found some motors without J-boxes on the side.  I occurred to me that a
link type belt would be an advantage here: if I need to drop it a little for clearance I could        just add a few links.


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## Nogoingback

wa5cab said:


> I agree with Rich.  With all of the belts and gears that may be in the drive train, an engine lathe is not a good candidate for a split phase motor.  Also try WW Grainger.  They aren't cheap but do carry a lot of different capacitor start motors.  One word of warning - if you do buy one with a thermal overload breaker, do NOT buy one with automatic reset. It will re-start itself as soon as it cools off.



Thanks for the info on overload breakers: I didn't know that.  Do you think thermal protection is needed in a application like this: it's not clear to my why these motors would run hot.
(Though I understand that can be a concern with running at slower speeds with a VFD.)


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## CluelessNewB

Nogoingback said:


> Are the starting loads all that high on a 10" Logan?



They could be significant with a heavy chuck swinging a big chunk of metal, back gears and feed gears engaged...   Looking through the old catalogs for Atlas, Logan and Delta Rockwell you will see capacitor start motors recommended for lathes and even drill presses.  Both Atlas and Delta listed split phase motors but I have never seen one recommended for* any *of their machines.   I have not done an exhaustive search so there may be something lurking out there that I missed.  Split phase motors typically don't like frequent starts, this may be why they aren't recommended for drill presses.


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## wa5cab

Nogoingback said:


> Thanks for the info on overload breakers: I didn't know that.  Do you think thermal protection is needed in a application like this: it's not clear to my why these motors would run hot.
> (Though I understand that can be a concern with running at slower speeds with a VFD.)



I don't think that a thermal overload is necessary on a lathe as no one is likely to be dumb enough to start one and then walk away.  I now consider them a requirement on cutoff saws after burning up the motor on mine, but that's unrelated.  I just wanted to mention the danger of automatic reset JIC you ended up having one as a choice.  To replace my saw motor, I had to go with a more expensive one than I really needed because the only one available otherwise exactly right had an auto reset breaker.


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## Nogoingback

CluelessNewB said:


> They could be significant with a heavy chuck swinging a big chunk of metal, back gears and feed gears engaged...   Looking through the old catalogs for Atlas, Logan and Delta Rockwell you will see capacitor start motors recommended for lathes and even drill presses.  Both Atlas and Delta listed split phase motors but I have never seen one recommended for* any *of their machines.   I have not done an exhaustive search so there may be something lurking out there that I missed.  Split phase motors typically don't like frequent starts, this may be why they aren't recommended for drill presses.



OK, good info.  I guess I'll pass on split phase motors.


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## Nogoingback

wa5cab said:


> I don't think that a thermal overload is necessary on a lathe as no one is likely to be dumb enough to start one and then walk away.  I now consider them a requirement on cutoff saws after burning up the motor on mine, but that's unrelated.  I just wanted to mention the danger of automatic reset JIC you ended up having one as a choice.  To replace my saw motor, I had to go with a more expensive one than I really needed because the only one available otherwise exactly right had an auto reset breaker.




I appreciate the info and I'll watch for that in the motor specs.  You guys are giving me an excellent education in motors.  I think I need to have a re-think
about the possibilities here.


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## TomKro

As to the motor HP issue, somewhere I've read that the 3/4 HP motor helped the Logan 200, but the 1HP was too much.  May even have been somewhere within this forum.  My selection was based mostly on convenience and cost - there appear to be a lot of 3/4 HP motors showing up on Craigslist, and the one I found had not been used.   

I have only very limited experience with my lathe.   I did find the center drills work much better if the spindle is turning the right way .


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## Nogoingback

After a bit of a re-think, I'm leaning towards a 3 phase 1/2 HP motor driven by single phase 220 and a VFD.  Dayton makes a 56 frame general purpose motor (31TT08)
that looks like the business: it should fit my lathe with no problem and it should be fine on startup with the VFD.  I emailed Dealer's Industrial and they verified it's
suitable for the VFD.  Best of all, I think I have a line on a new old stock motor at a pretty nice discount.  Am I missing anything here?


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## wa5cab

Nothing that I can think of.  That sounds like a good solution.


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## Jim_Z

I have a VFD on my Logan 1825 10" lathe.  It works nicely.  One word of caution though.  Becareful when you start playing around with the stopping time functions.  You can program the VFD to coast to a stop, to stop in 5 seconds or 20 seconds, what every you want.  Just don't program it to stop in less that 5 seconds, or the chuck might just spin itself off off of the spindle.  DAMHIN.  Same caution applies to programming for reverse.  Use a ramp up time of at least 5 seconds.  VFDs are fun, have lots of options and are very useful.  I especially like the variable speed option, but usually don't go below 30 cps.


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## Nogoingback

Thanks Jim.  I was aware of the possibility of spinning the chuck off, but it's good to be reminded.  Which VFD did you buy?  I was thinking about a TECO.


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## wa5cab

It won't hurt anything but 5 seconds is perhaps a little bit of overkill.


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## CluelessNewB

I have a Teco N3 (basically the same as the 7300) on my Logan and it works great.  I would avoid the Teco FM50, it fine for phase conversion but it is not sensorless vector and it has very limited options for external controls.


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## Nogoingback

A fairly basic VFD would probably do the job for me: mostly I want it for speed control and phase conversion so the N3 looks like it would do the job.  TECO also has a
new 510 series that replaces the JNEV line.  Am I correct in assuming this for more complex applications, with greater programming options?


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## CluelessNewB

The N3 will work fine but is 220V input only. On the plus side the N3 has one real nice feature, it comes with a metal cover with knockouts that covers the terminals.  This can save you significant time if you don't plan to mount your VFD in an enclosure.  I believe the L510 will work fine.  It has the advantage of 110V input as an option on models 1 hp and lower.  With the L510 you will need to mount it in an enclosure or figure out some other way to cover the connections.   

I had 2 of my VFD's mixed up, I actually have a 7300 on my Logan, the  N3 I have is on my wood jointer.  They are basically the same except the 7300 doesn't have the metal cover for the connections  and is beige rather than the dark grey of the N3.


N3 on my wood jointer (sorry for the sideways picture, it looks fine on my computer):





7300 on my Logan, note hacked up and ventilated gray plastic box to cover up electrical connections:


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## Nogoingback

I have single phase 220 available next to the lathe, so that's what I plan on using and  the NEMA cover is a plus.  With the VFD under the lathe, did you wire up 
any remote controls?


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## CluelessNewB

Yes start, stop. speed, forward/reverse*.  It is mounted in the same location the original drum switch was mounted.  The original drum switch had been trashed by the previous owner. 
I like the big red stop and green start but I'm not thrilled with the speed knob, it's small and hard to turn.  Someday I may redo those controls.  

*Actually reverse is currently programmed inactive, I did that on purpose when I first got the lathe running and I haven't really found a need for it yet.  I's been about 4 years I think


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## Nogoingback

Looks like a good setup Rich.   My lathe will be right next to the wall where the circuit breaker panel lives, so I may just panel mount the VFD to the wall and
drive from the VFD itself.  I noticed that TECO's product literature specifies fast blow fuses on the input side of the VFD, so I guess I'll get a small enclosure
for them and a master on/off switch and call it good.


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## Nogoingback

I hadn't planned on getting the motor quite yet, but a perfect NOS motor showed up on eBay for about 1/2 the usual street price, so I jumped on it.  Score!


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## Reeltor

I don't know if I missed it or not, please explain what was wrong with the old motor?  Congratulations on the finding a new suitable replacement, can't have too many motors.


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## Nogoingback

The pulley on the old motor is a 3/4 bore that was poorly sleeved: the result was that they tightened the set screw everywhere but on a key (there wasn't one) so the shaft is munched up.  The 
bearings feel a bit rough to me.  And, it's not a candidate for a VFD.


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## Reeltor

gotcha,


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