# Messin' about with machines..



## graham-xrf (Jan 4, 2020)

Freely lifted from the British idiom "messing about in boats", where the afficionados spend countless hours on something tied up in a Marina, painting this and that, polishing up something else, or getting involved with engine bits. You know the scene - fueled with a steady supply of afternoon teas with buttered scones + strawberry jam and G+T's or Martini's with like-minded friends.  Struggling to make it back to the (expensive!) tie-up while being drenched in 4C Atlantic rain.. yeah!

It has been describe as a bit like "standing in a cold shower while tearing up twenties". Our hobby pastime at least shares the "tearing up $20's" aspect, and I am sure someone who has hauled half a ton of rusty iron destined for a painted and polished future, across almost any state after fall, would argue the bit about the shower. For me, getting to certain stages in doing the good stuff for even one small bit of the machine has an appeal - enough for me to take a photograph. Well.. it's so easy now with the cameras in a portable version what used to be a telephone.

It is not so special. Loads of us have done something like this, and reached for the rattle-can of grey primer. What? No!! Please tell me you did not skip the "primer" stage. "Direct to metal" it says on the can? Oh..OK then..

Such as it is - we have this. (Just recording a little progress)!







I don't know I have the will power to do the "messin' about with machines" thing to the extent it deserves. I cannot even get my head around  the number of grubby bits in the garage that belong to this kit, each one giving me a little guilt trip regarding it's painted and polished future. Each one anticipating a masking-tape scenario. The blue curl chips in the recycle box reminding me the hot smell they made before machine#0.7 began duty fixing up machine#0.05. It takes an effort of will to turn away from it for a while, and give some attention to that stuff on the house that still needs fixing up.

There has to something psycho(logical) wrong with me!  Maybe kinda similar to as if I had taken up with the boats!


----------



## Martin W (Jan 4, 2020)

Yeah trucks are kind of like boats, only its tearing up Mackenzie Kings and Robert Bordens……..Lol
Cheers
Martin


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 4, 2020)

Martin W said:


> Yeah trucks are kind of like boats, only its tearing up Mackenzie Kings and Robert Bordens……..Lol
> Cheers
> Martin


OK - I had to look them up. The illustrious Canadians!
Here, it was always the Queen (Elizabeth) since ever I remember. Isaac Newton only made it onto the back of the discontinued £1.
We have also had William Shakespeare, replaced by Michael Faraday. Then a spell of that music dude Edward Elgar and Scottish money man Adam Smith. Now it's artist J.W.M Turner.
None of these is evocative as being called "Mackenzies"! It just works way better than "We shelled out a couple of Shakespeares on the beef and booze".

We get the obvious "fiver" and "tenner".
£20 is a Score, £25 is a Pony, £100 is a Ton, £500 is a Monkey, and £1000 is a Grand
And if someone has (say) £7million, he is enviously referred to as "having landed 7 Large".

Then there are "Greenbacks". Did they ever have "Washingtons", or "Lincolns", or Madisons"?
Trucks? I think they come new with something like 5 zeros on the end of the tag.

P.S. BTW - still going with the paint thing!


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 4, 2020)

OK - the primer - with careful help from a heat gun to "speed up" the process.
That colour looks OK. Maybe there is a gloss called "Primer Grey", or maybe we put on a coat of Rustoleum Clear over the grey?




I really should not have sacrificed the pen top quite so soon :-(
Press-on some more. We have yet to try out the rattle can of "Rover Kingfisher Blue" from Halfords, still laying around along with the can of "Citroën  Mediterranean Blue" from earlier messin' about.


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 4, 2020)

We press on with the machine stuff. The ultra-cheapo eBay set of telescopic bore gauge items arrived.



They seem to work just fine. I can't help thinking that if this stuff got made (wherever), and shipped to my door for under a tenner, it leaves us accepting that there is no point in bucking the globalized robot armies that "make stuff".
Will I discover they have "limitations", and are no darn good? We shall see!

My messin' with machine day has moved on. The paint experience had some surprises.
1. The colour of the paint in the can is not exactly the same as colour on the cap.
2. The colors of both paint and cap are rendered by one Samsung phone camera into yet newer colours in the photos.




The actual real colours are NOT as above, but we can tell the wayward representation on the cap.
I tried with and without flash. I tried "auto white balance". No good! the real color is paler and greener and much nicer. I settle for indoor lighting photos without flash.






We just have to imagine the real colour is a tad greener. Maybe the camera does some kind of "colour enhance" trick.
The casting is a little rough, so the bumps give the paint a texture. I did not use any filler to smooth it out. The non-painted parts got rubbed up with some abrasive paper. There are some ding cuts too deep to rub out. They will have to live on as "SB war wounds". The handle is ever so slightly bent off true axis. I am unsure of attempting to nudge it back. I don't want to break it. Maybe if I clamp it between aluminium strips in a vise, and get a bit of steel tube over it - or something - and carefully explore it's yield point.

The final effect looks about as retro as a Straight-8 Buick! It makes me want to watch one of those old movies featuring Raymond Chandler's detective!

GIven that "messin' about with machines" has to be temporarily suspended, I can't be sneaking off to the far end of the garage for a while.


----------



## DavidR8 (Jan 4, 2020)

Looks great!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## darkzero (Jan 4, 2020)

Nice job! 

I really wanted to paint the centers black on the cast iron handwheels I put on my mill drill. But I didn't know how well the paint would stick to the chrome plating. Didn't feel like taking the time to rough up the chrome plated cast surfaces so I just slapped em on as is. But I still want to & this has gave me motivation again.


----------



## brino (Jan 4, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> The colour of the paint in the can is not exactly the same as colour on the cap.



What are you complaining about it matches the back of your sand-paper nearly perfectly......

Oh wait, you weren't trying to match that......um....nevermind then.

-brino


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 4, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Nice job!


 Thanks - it is the first time I ever put anything like this on a public forum, warts & all (so to speak)!


> I really wanted to paint the centers black on the cast iron handwheels I put on my mill drill. But I didn't know how well the paint would stick to the chrome plating. Didn't feel like taking the time to rough up the chrome plated cast surfaces so I just slapped em on as is. But I still want to & this has gave me motivation again.


 I have to agree the yen to put on an accent colour. The strong artistic effect is well known, and has been a main principle of HERALDRY. Look at any motor manufacturer logo. Look at any Coat of Arms, Look at any Hollywood Theatre Company Logo. Look at what surrounds the American Eagle!

Look anywhere..  University emblems. Right down to the strip of chromium between any two-tone colors on a car from a 20th Century American Motor Manufacturer. Check out Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Chevrolet. Right down to a school prefect's badge, or a decent knife handle! (Who else watches "Forged in Fire")?






The rule is - you never put a metal on a metal, and you never put a colour on a colour. Separate the join by putting a colour between the metals, and vice-versa. The effect is to instantly enhance! There are some _avant-guarde_ artistic revisionists who perhaps do not understand the psychology. I believe their contributions are doomed to look plain, and plebeian in comparison.

Look up a fashion aid called "Colour Wheel". Discover what are the "complimentary colours" to the main theme on your machine. There are sites which publish combinations which set a mood. Use photoshop, or the (free) GIMP to paste some colours on photos of your machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel

Put the accent colour you like on the chrome metal space between the shiny bits. I could be wrong, but you can try it. If you don't rough up the chrome, and find a primer to adhere anyway, you can remove it with the right solvents should you get it wrong.


----------



## westerner (Jan 4, 2020)

I live in the desert Southwest of America. That said, we are at 7000 ft. elevation, on the downwind edge of a serious geological formation that concentrates precipitation here. 20 inches of liquid precip/year, and 100 inches of it as snow. 
All that to say, that I cannot overstate my delight to avoid all these RUST abatement related threads on this site. You guys have my condolences!
It is dry, and I have some dry skin issues. My paint/primer/rust issues are NIL. Plenty fair enough trade, Thanks


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Looks great!


Thanks.
You should know that the end effect is a bit like having only one wheel on the car refurbished and powder-coated, and given a new tyre!


----------



## darkzero (Jan 5, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Thanks.
> You should know that the end effect is a bit like having only one wheel on the car refurbished and powder-coated, and given a new tyre!



Well of you had 2 new wheels, put them on the same side & only drive on the farthest lane so no one can see the other side. Same goes for painted surfaces, apply the 5ft rule. If it looks good from 5ft it's good enough & don't allow anyone to get closer than 5ft to see it.


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 5, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Well of you had 2 new wheels, put them on the same side & only drive on the farthest lane so no one can see the other side. Same goes for painted surfaces, apply the 5ft rule. If it looks good from 5ft it's good enough & don't allow anyone to get closer than 5ft to see it.


Hee Hee - that's good, but too late for me here. I already posted pictures based roughly on about the 5 inch rule!


----------



## darkzero (Jan 5, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Hee Hee - that's good, but too late for me here. I already posted pictures based roughly on about the 5 inch rule!



Haha, I'll promise to squint whenever I look at the pics.  

But seriously, they look good without squinting!


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 12, 2020)

Getting up to a little more messing about, and I happen to spot something on the so far unloved back gear guard.




OK - so somebody painted Ministry of Defence "Grey" right over the brass asset label.
We apply some of the last of the Nitomors I am trying to use up. It claims "dichloromethane-free", but whatever replaced that active ingredient does not work as well, and is possibly a worse substance to get a whiff of. I suspect something benzyl, because of the way it rapidly makes the chest go wheezy. Even for this little dab, the mask with the carbon granules filters has to be used.




Well hello! What have we here? Some historical evidence. The place this kit did duty is only about 20 miles from me. They were meticulous about recording their assets.




R.A.E. stands for the Royal Aircraft Establishment, which was based at Farnborough in Hampshire, and they had a second site RAE Bedford. In 1988, it was renamed "Royal Aerospace Establishment". In 1991, it merged with other agencies to become "Defence Research Agency". It has had a couple of changes since, but I know the site, and I have worked there. It's the same place where Frank Whittle ran up his jet engine, but failed to inspire the military men.




I suspect this South Bend 9A was used there from1948 to perhaps around 1970's. I don't know how long these departments kept their kit. Maybe it was moved around and re-deployed a bit.

Like the tailstock wheel - don't expect ever to see it in this condition again!


----------



## middle.road (Jan 13, 2020)

Here's my attempt at adding to the fine humor of this thread.

That's not 'Ministry of Defence "Grey"' it's Mid-Century Office Desk 'Grey'.   

What might even be a tad funnier is that when I went to look for an image to include here, is the asking price(s) for these ugly old beasts.
This one popped up on Etsy for $1200.00 and another one was listed for €630.00
Say what?! Really?!
If they're really going for that kind of money I wish I had a storage container full of them.


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 13, 2020)

middle.road said:


> That's not 'Ministry of Defence "Grey"' it's Mid-Century Office Desk 'Grey'.


Yep - truly from the bad old days. They had office acreage set out with modesty panel desks in a grid array, each with a typewriter, or a Hollerith 80-character hand chad puncher thing, populated mostly by women who aimed to contrive an escape as soon as possible. And an office hierarchy that was sad at the best of times!

There came a point where the machines became electric, needing many amperes at 5.0volts, and even Niagra felt the strain.

For the Ministry of Defence (UK) , it was a forced amalgamation which did not establish easily because of the competing interests of Army, Navy and Air Force. The universal paint choice was the same as in U.S.A. If it moved, you salute it. If not, and it's made of metal, then "Battleship Grey". All else gets a whitewash!

Some of the RAL colour codes have names - like "Aircraft Grey". I suppose the intent was to set a theme in some manner psycho-lloggical !


----------



## middle.road (Jan 13, 2020)

I have one very thin stack of blank Hollerith cards left out of two boxes.
Better than index cards for note taking.   
I remember my dad bringing home the 'punched' ones from the office. Us kids did all sorts of things with them.


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 13, 2020)

When I am "messing about with machines", I am somehow indulging a strange deep thing that just makes one "feel better", even as we make powerful stuff spin, and we cut through steel, and we mess with definitely nasty chemicals, and get stuff way more than red-hot, and make things of precision beauty. And ... we have to fix up our own machines!

Becoming so informed that you completely know what you are doing, and you understand the problem is not enough!
(A bit like Sheldon Cooper theoretically "learning to swim" without actually engaging with the wet stuff).
I already know a whole lot about what to do to fix up various parts of my machine.  It does not compensate for that I be a bit behind in the practiced skills. This is not going to stop me trying!

I tend to post the results of my forays into machinitus - or should that be messinaboutitus - even the mistaaikes!

Amid all that, here we can hang out and talk about almost anything, and feel OK, even among guys with awesome skills who already know you just messed up something simple. @DavidR8 already pointed out how this site has that quality. I value it more than most can know!


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 15, 2020)

*It was working - until you messed with it!*
Back to the El Cheapo Chinese measure thingies that arrived between paint can handling while doing the tailstock wheel earlier.




I had been reading about the "variable" quality, so i thought to take a look.
When the end knurl that usually tightens them to lock is unscrewed all the way, out drops the little rod that presses on the moving bits. 
	

		
			
		

		
	




Sure enough. What the man said on his YT rant was so. The ends of the rods had been sheared off as if from a hefty side-cutter. It does not show clearly in the picture, but it looked crude. The quality ones, we are told, have nicely rounded and polished ends. Not so hard - let's modify them a little.




There we go!  A bit of a spin on a old file, and we wring a last gasp out of the leftover bits of abrasive paper, one of which competed in the "good lathe color" stakes. Should be fine!

Ahh .. but look. Where are the two smallest gauges? Why are they not in the plastic wallet?
Er.. Ok then. That is because they are recaptured into a plastic zip-bag after a Herculean effort to get them back together.

Those darn things have SPRINGS in them, all ready to launch any parts of the insides to who-knows where?
It happens swiftly. A sudden little event, and if you are lucky, you hear enough of a little tinkle to know which side of the room to start searching - except for springs. Unlike those in my car suspension, these launch and land silently!



I also have to contend with the space-time warp discontinuity portal (Star Trek Technobabble) that lurks somewhere on the left floor region near my foot. Anything that lands there is simply never seen again. Dropped self-tapping screws see service in another dimension!

So how did we end up with TWO in that state?
Oh - that's easy. You start with the smallest, and some bits get launched - you know - compression potential energy , and all that. One has no idea how the bits go together again, nor even if all the bits have been found!

The solution is to take apart the next size up, to use as an example reference. This trick works. The bits are found.
By now, I suppose we all see the flaw in the otherwise good plan!


----------



## brino (Jan 15, 2020)

....perhaps if you dis-assemble the next biggest one?

-brino


----------



## graham-xrf (Jan 15, 2020)

brino said:


> ....perhaps if you dis-assemble the next biggest one?
> -brino


Yup - the thought did cross my mind, and I might have got to that, only stopped by a temporary situation..





The zip tie bag, recycled into new duties, was, in it's previous life, host to one of those UNC + metric multi-stampings threads gauges from eBay. Anticipating another fumble would leave the undersized packet unable to cope with 32-54mm with 5+3/8" stem (we are equal opportunity units here), gave me time to see the flaw in the plan.

An optimist with courage, no less! It's a good way to be - or maybe you didn't see the flaw yet!

Me, on the other hand, does not have the instinct to just get another pack from eBay. Not when I've invested the remains of my abrasive paper and attentions to improving the little rod. Also, as they say - stop digging!
There is probably more than a tenner's worth of grief involved in getting that fiddly stuff back together. Even so, I limit my forays into eBay to the minimum.

The eBay song -->


----------



## Old Mud (Jan 31, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> OK - the primer - with careful help from a heat gun to "speed up" the process.
> That colour looks OK. Maybe there is a gloss called "Primer Grey", or maybe we put on a coat of Rustoleum Clear over the grey?
> 
> View attachment 309485
> ...


 

   Sacreligious , Graham  if you were a boater  you would have known Zinc Chromate or Zink Phospate is the best primer to use. No rust will come through ever !!.   Nice finish on the wheels though. Guess i have the best of both worlds I'm a Fisherman /Boater and I have all the tools to repair or rebuild anything i own. Not a bad feeling at all. You may be a little easy on the financing though. As all of us know "Boat" stands for "Break out another Thousand".


----------



## graham-xrf (Feb 1, 2020)

Old Mud said:


> Sacreligious , Graham  if you were a boater  you would have known Zinc Chromate or Zink Phospate is the best primer to use. No rust will come through ever !!.  Nice finish on the wheels though. Guess i have the best of both worlds I'm a Fisherman /Boater and I have all the tools to repair or rebuild anything i own. Not a bad feeling at all. You may be a little easy on the financing though. As all of us know "Boat" stands for "Break out another Thousand".


Thanks @Old Mud. You have triggered a little recall. I have had a "new old stock" 1L can of Zinc Chromate primer rescued unused from an aircraft spar repair operation, stashed in the garage. I don't think this inorganic stuff can change ? I am hoping there is no deterioration. Chemical theory based, I am guessing it's OK. It is pale greenish stuff that seems to take a long time to dry.
BUT - is that not intended for Aluminum surfaces (as in airframes)?

Given you said the word "rust", I am thinking your boating experience of laying on Zinc Chromate includes on iron and steel.
*Re: Rust*
From actual cleanup experience, if you use a steam cleaner to shift the grime, or use any kind of acid, helped along by electrolysis in any way, the instant the surface slightly dries, and sees oxygen, it turns orange in about 15 seconds. The first rust cannot be stopped. The future rust stopped only by denying oxygen by coatings, paint, whatever. You can convert the surface to magnetite, and inhibit it that way - or convert established rust.

I found sticking it immediately into something caustic, or even rubbing wet soap on it, anything to neutralize the stuff, does work. So now, I use simple washing soda for the whole process. Heat in alkali, and it makes something darker on the surface, but rust is stopped dead. Then paint it.

You can use electrolysis in washing soda (Sodium Carbonate) to de-rust, and it is cleaner if you make the other electrode carbon instead of old rebar, and it is self-limiting. When it runs out of rust to convert, it ends up making Hydrogen and Oxygen. It cannot chew down, nor modify the dimensions of the metal.

I follow your lead here in the elements naming protocol. I guess we are supposed to use capital letter names for elements which, because they are (elements) get the honoured  spot in the Table Periodic.

Right-on that B.O.A.T. cranks up in $$Thousands. Posts #1, #2, #3 would have had it "Standing in a cold shower, tearing up Jacksons". Hmm - given inflation and all - better make that "Grants" (I think).
I still consider @Martin W tears up the coolest-sounding "Mackenzie Kings".

Edit: P.S I am told by my son that real elements do not get a proper name capitalization unless they are the "me too" sort beloved of cosmetic companies who will dream up names ending in "ium". This for their worthless, but expensively packaged crap to lend it an aura that it might really be associated with a scientific truth! The symbols however, are definitely capitals, or start with capitals.


----------



## Old Mud (Feb 2, 2020)

Hi Graham, Yes almost everything on aircraft is primed with Zinc Chromate. Yes it is used on airfraims. But great on anything Aluminum or steel in the marine environment. (Save the underwater gear).  Zinc is quite a nobel metal and therefore will be first to corrode (before steel, Stainless steel, bronze, copper or aluminum.)  when immersed in Salt water. Yes pickling of any kind is usually good to do for a prep.

  Ok now don't worry about the Capitals with me because i usually use capitals weather i need them or not, when i'm trying to Emphasize.


----------

