# Rigidity in an Atlas 10F lathe -HELP-



## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

Good morning all.

I would like to pose a cumulative challenge to the group..... a “Covid 19” project. I’d like to invite you all into my shop to help me solve a problem. Due to space and pandemic limitations I will use the forum instead! 

I have a 1948 Atlas 10F. I did a complete rebuild and the lathe is “as new”. The bed was reground, bearings checked, everything cleaned to bare metal and then reassembled. 

I have adjusted the carriage gibs so that the carriage slides but has a bit of resistance. The cross slide has about the same resistance. The compound gibs are considerably tighter. The headstock is tightly attached, and headstock spindle bearings adjusted correctly with appropriate preload. I have an Armstrong QCTP that is tightly affixed to the compound and there is little to no overhang from centreline when using HSS or Carbide. The lathe is level and flat and is attached at the four mounting points directly to a 2 inch butcher block top. That top is attached to a 300 lb set of plywood cabinets with approximately 750 lb of tooling etc within. 

I have an Edge Technologies “gadget” that helps to set the tool height exactly on the lathe centreline. I have checked with a special Edge Technologies bar that the headstock and tail stock are in line with one another. I have spent the money and done every conceivable thing that I can think of and spent significant resources to make my “turning experience” pleasant; but it REALLY IS AWEFUL!!! (That was the clean way of saying what I want to say). 

When I put a piece of stock into the chuck, I look at the material, the feed, the speed, and once I start turning I have on one occasion gotten nice chips (in mild steel) but in most cases I get a surface finish rivaled by a teenagers “zit covered” face and vibrations that my wife says put ripples in her coffee 2 floors up. (I’m in the basement). Even with aluminum the lathe often vibrates like an ultrasonic cleaner! 

I watch a lot of youtube and I am so “p’d” off that I cannot seem to get my lathe to “play nicely”. It isn’t from lack if trying, and certainly not from lack of investment...... it is due to a gross lack of experience, which is why I put this to you all for help. These lathes were touted by Atlas as being sufficient in shops, labs and schools, and while I don’t expect performance from it that one might get from a big Monarch, I do expect more than what a Taig, Sherline or smaller Atlas 618 would give..... and maybe that thinking is wrong. Please, I implore the group to look at the pics, call out ANY error, make any suggestion, throw out any idea no matter how ridiculous and I will check it, try it and/or adopt it. 

This lathe SHOULD be able to do the light machining I ask of it without rattling my 46 year old teeth out if my head. Any and ALL input appreciated!! I apologize if this thread repeats one that has been done in the past, but I would like you (my buddies) to look at the setup and help me solve the problem..... I’m out of ideas. 

Best regards, 

Derek





























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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

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## mattthemuppet2 (May 20, 2020)

lots of possibilities here. 

For one, mount the lathe directly to the bench, not on standoffs like that. If you need to level the lathe you can slip shims underneat the side/ foot that needs to be raised. To be honest, leveling your lathe is waaaaay down your list of priorities.

Second, what material are you turning? What speed? What depth of cut?

Third, you're using a relatively blunt carbide insert (CCMT by the looks of it) that needs a decent chip load to work properly. Try a test cut on a piece of Sch80 PVC pipe with a sharp HSS bit (or CCGT insert). Play around with that for a while. Then try aluminium (use WD40 or kerosene for lube). Once you've got that down, buy some nice leaded steel (eg. 12L14) and play with that. Try different speeds, feeds and depths of cut. For speed a good rule of thumb is 4 x SFM x diameter of work in inches. SFM = surface feet per minute. A conservative value for steel is 50 and for aluminium is 100, using HSS. Start there and work up. Eg. turning a 1" steel rod, speed should be 4 x 50 x 1 = 200rpm. That's pretty slow, but you can always go faster when you get used to it.

The downside with watching YT vids is that a) they assume a level of knowledge but aren't explicit about what they expect you to know and b) you're looking at years if not decades of experience, so they make things look simpler than they are. You need to get that experience your own way.


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## benmychree (May 20, 2020)

A good start to improve finishes would be to abandon negative rake carbide tooling, it has no place on a light duty machine such as you have.  The excessive overhang of the collet setup you are using would not be helpful either.  As to excessive vibration, does the machine vibrate when not cutting?  If so it should be easy to isolate the cause.  Having the tool overhang the cross slide as it appears is not a good thing, as I have seen on my 9" Monarch, when trying to part off, when I move the tool post to the right, the problem is greatly lessened.  I think your tool post is too large for the lathe.


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

benmychree said:


> A good start to improve finishes would be to abandon negative rake carbide tooling, it has no place on a light duty machine such as you have. The excessive overhang of the collet setup you are using would not be helpful either. As to excessive vibration, does the machine vibrate when not cutting? If so it should be easy to isolate the cause. Having the tool overhang the cross slide as it appears is not a good thing, as I have seen on my 9" Monarch, when trying to part off, when I move the tool post to the right, the problem is greatly lessened. I think your tool post is too large for the lathe.



The tool post is AXA sized, which is supposed to be good for the 10 and 12” lathes, but I will look into it. I will focus on HSS for the time being but look into other carbide. The lathe runs like a Swiss Watch when not cutting, both quite and vibration free. I have a Starrett Vibrometer and it reads zero deflection when not cutting. Additionally I measure .0002 runout at the spindle and .0005 at the collet. Thanks for the input, and will try some changes. 


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

mattthemuppet2, Thank you SO much for the suggestions. I’ll try some of your suggestions and let you know what I find. The first will be to get the lathe off of the standoffs. Too I am going to look at how the butcher block is attached to the cabinet to ensure that there is rigidity there. I’m just working on installing an RPM readout so that I can accurately set feeds and speeds (I’ve been using a hand held albeit digital, RPM indicator to this point. Regarding YouTube, unfortunately they make it look SO easy, which is part of the allure. But everyone starts out a beginner. 

Cheers. 

Derek


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## markba633csi (May 20, 2020)

What kind of shape are the bronze sleeve bearings in in the spindle pulley? If they are worn the pulley will knock around on the spindle and add vibration. They should fit tightly within 0.001"
Also I pretty much agree with John on everything he mentioned in post #4 -  Atlas lathes are happiest with HSS tool bits, you should have no trouble getting great finishes with those any day of the week
-Mark


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

Thanks Mark. Just checked the pulley and it is tight. Going to grind some HSS tools today. Just working on getting the lathe off of the standoffs. I really appreciate the input!


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## benmychree (May 20, 2020)

If your lathe is not equipped with a variable speed motor/control, why not just record all the speeds on a chart/plaque?  I did that for my 9" Monarch


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

benmychree said:


> If your lathe is not equipped with a variable speed motor/control, why not just record all the speeds on a chart/plaque? I did that for my 9" Monarch



It has a 2Hp DC motor with variable speed..... and I’m almost done making installing the RPM gage. Otherwise, yes. Valid point!


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## shadetreedad (May 20, 2020)

Moderatemixed,

First off, that is a beautiful machine. You'll have a lifetime of fun/satisfaction with it.

Regarding the stand offs, I know there are machinists who will disagree but I three pointed my Atlas lathe with 2.5” risers on the headstock end and a single center point on the tailstock. Since I move my lathe around in a small shop on a bench with wheels this allows the lathe to have a “natural” levelness. I can take .025” cuts in steel with no issues. In aluminum .050” easily. I suppose if I took much deeper cuts there could be a problem with bed flex, but I haven't noticed any. I do use razor sharp 3/8” or 1/2” HSS bits. An AXA tool holder is perfect for that 10” lathe. Also, a singe piece plinth on the cross slide (replacing the compound) will make for a much more rigid setup. I made mine out of round stock aluminum. Same height as the compound. 

Mike


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## Nutfarmer (May 20, 2020)

Nice job on the lathe rebuild. It sure is pretty. At risk of sounding like a broken record ,loose the carbide and grind some high speed steel. There is an excellent write up by one of the members here on how to grind a lathe tool bit. With a honed edge on hss you will be amazed at how much better the atlas will perform. One other item to check is if the bearing plates on the saddle were reshimed  after the bed was ground. Regrinding  the bed will change the clearance between the under side of the bed and the bearing plates. Also the saddle may need to be scraped in on the reground  bed. Do the simplest thing first and try a sharp high speed tool bit. Good luck. The members around here are great at helping out. Let us know how it turns out.


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 20, 2020)

Moderatemixed said:


> But everyone starts out a beginner.



that is for sure! No truer words spoken. I started with a weird old jewelers lathe and upgraded to an Atlas 618, so you're well ahead of me - at least you don't have to worry about wear and tear being the problem.

take your time and play around. Start with the easiest materials to machine first (candles?) and work up from there. First time I ever cut some threads I used PVC pipe. Before you know it several years will have passed and you'll be offering advice to people who are in the exact same situation you are now


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

shadetreedad said:


> Moderatemixed,
> 
> First off, that is a beautiful machine. You'll have a lifetime of fun/satisfaction with it.
> 
> ...



Would you happen to have a picture of the “plinth”, and perhaps some dimensions? Hearing that you are able to make cuts like that gives me faith and further drives me to find the source of my rigidity loss. Thanks for the comments and for taking the time. 

Derek


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## ub27Rocks (May 20, 2020)

The plinth is basically a big block of steel, same height as your compound but bolted to the cross slide. Stefan G, Rob Renzetti both have YT videos on how they made theirs.
Here is mine on a 10x22. Not quite wide enough, will be widening the base soon. In your case a tall piece of round steel the diameter of the base will be all you can do. 
No doubt somone will pipe up and say 'but then you can't thread' which might be true from the usual North American approach but in EU it is normal to plunge straight in for fine threads (which is pretty much anything less than 13tpi) so not really an issue.

I still think you should just bolt the lathe to a 7 or  in wide u channel


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## shadetreedad (May 20, 2020)

Mine is aluminum. Took a few hours to make. I think it's 4" diameter. Very simple and works great. It is the same height as my compound. So, if I use the same tool holders there is no need to adjust them. I really only use the compound if cutting a taper or threading "larger" items. If it's a small diameter I just thread straight in with the cross slide. 
Mike


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## pdentrem (May 20, 2020)

My lathe was set up the same way.
Everything I can see does not point to anything that can cause your dancing to the vibs except for the tool. When I had my  Atlas, I used HSS tooling with carbide coming to play on hard metals. I typically used tools with a small radius and sharp. The parting tool and some form tools caused chatter, but kind of expected.
Pierre


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

pdentrem said:


> My lathe was set up the same way.
> Everything I can see does not point to anything that can cause your dancing to the vibs except for the tool. When I had my Atlas, I used HSS tooling with carbide coming to play on hard metals. I typically used tools with a small radius and sharp. The parting tool and some form tools caused chatter, but kind of expected.
> Pierre
> 
> ...



Hey Pierre. Looking at the feet of your lathe you have put it on those plates. I can’t quite see from the pic but are there feet at each corner of each plate? It appears that your lathe would have then 8 points of contact, and 4 solid bolt downs. Mine only has the 4 bolt downs which might be part of my problem. Your lathe is beautiful, by the way. Thanks for the input and any further would be appreciated.

Cheers

Derek


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

shadetreedad said:


> Mine is aluminum. Took a few hours to make. I think it's 4" diameter. Very simple and works great. It is the same height as my compound. So, if I use the same tool holders there is no need to adjust them. I really only use the compound if cutting a taper or threading "larger" items. If it's a small diameter I just thread straight in with the cross slide.
> Mike
> View attachment 324909



Ok great! Thanks for the pic. and for the associated insight. 


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

ub27Rocks said:


> The plinth is basically a big block of steel, same height as your compound but bolted to the cross slide. Stefan G, Rob Renzetti both have YT videos on how they made theirs.
> Here is mine on a 10x22. Not quite wide enough, will be widening the base soon. In your case a tall piece of round steel the diameter of the base will be all you can do.
> No doubt somone will pipe up and say 'but then you can't thread' which might be true from the usual North American approach but in EU it is normal to plunge straight in for fine threads (which is pretty much anything less than 13tpi) so not really an issue.
> 
> I still think you should just bolt the lathe to a 7 or in wide u channel



Thanks G. I really appreciate the further insight. I think I might look at what Pierre has done with his vs the metal u channel for the time being. I have an idea and will discuss tomorrow. Thanks as always for the insight.... 

Cheers, Big B. 

Derek


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## ub27Rocks (May 20, 2020)

I have a Plan D as well, with free metal for you to use to do it.


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

ub27Rocks said:


> I have a Plan D as well, with free metal for you to use to do it.



Best kind! Talk to you tomorrow about 2?


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## westerner (May 20, 2020)

Nutfarmer said:


> One other item to check is if the bearing plates on the saddle were reshimed after the bed was ground. Regrinding the bed will change the clearance between the under side of the bed and the bearing plates.


I did a 'poor man's' scrape job on my old Craftsman. I had to change gib shims to make up for the material removed. The local tool guy had shim stock that worked out. I have extra, if you need some skinny stuff.


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

Nutfarmer said:


> Nice job on the lathe rebuild. It sure is pretty. At risk of sounding like a broken record ,loose the carbide and grind some high speed steel. There is an excellent write up by one of the members here on how to grind a lathe tool bit. With a honed edge on hss you will be amazed at how much better the atlas will perform. One other item to check is if the bearing plates on the saddle were reshimed after the bed was ground. Regrinding the bed will change the clearance between the under side of the bed and the bearing plates. Also the saddle may need to be scraped in on the reground bed. Do the simplest thing first and try a sharp high speed tool bit. Good luck. The members around here are great at helping out. Let us know how it turns out.



I hadn’t thought about the shims on the underside of the saddle but there doesn’t seem to be any up and down play. I will check it out a bit more closely tomorrow. Great points all around and yes, I am going to switch to the HSS. I have a sharpening system (Toycen Journeyman with the Tradesman Machinist attachment). Essentially it will sharpen anything from end mills to drill bits and everything in between. It uses a 6 inch CBN wheel for grinding and sharpening lathe tools (contrary to what is generally considered normal) at low speed, but I will review the tool geometry before jumping in. Thanks for the suggestions and advice.

Cheers,

Derek


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## Moderatemixed (May 20, 2020)

westerner said:


> I did a 'poor man's' scrape job on my old Craftsman. I had to change gib shims to make up for the material removed. The local tool guy had shim stock that worked out. I have extra, if you need some skinny stuff.



Thanks for the offer! I have a box of Starrett shim stock that I picked up for a song; all of it new in sleeves and progressive sizes from .001 to .030, in .001 increments so I should be ok. I will let you know however if I get stuck. Thanks again.

Cheers

Derek


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## pdentrem (May 20, 2020)

The alum plates had only 3 points of contact per each. 4 points of contact would be difficult to regulate. The hold down bolts passed through the plates, and the table top. The plates were drilled and threaded for the bolts which acted like adjusters to level and support the lathe. Was not my design, I bought the whole set up from a retired machinist. He had upgraded to a Harrison lathe.


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## westerner (May 20, 2020)

Oh, you have got what you need. Nice score. Way oil will help you to feel exactly how tight you are. Have fun. You will sort it out. These machines are not known for their rigidity, but they can be useful. I surely enjoyed my time with one, for it definitely made me a better machinist.


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## shadetreedad (May 21, 2020)

Another likely thing that may be your issue is the feed rate. I'm pretty sure the slowest feed rate on your quick change gearbox (without a compound gear) is .0042”. this is really quite fast. Try installing a compound gear setup & slowing your rate of feed down to .002” or less. I have a Pick-O-Matic drive box and can select only 3 speeds. My fastest of the 3 is .0042”. And that is almost too fast for anything but the lightest of cuts in aluminum. The speed I use the most is 1/2 of that .0021". And for finish cuts 1/2 of that .0010". Very slow.
Mike


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## Moderatemixed (May 21, 2020)

shadetreedad said:


> Another likely thing that may be your issue is the feed rate. I'm pretty sure the slowest feed rate on your quick change gearbox (without a compound gear) is .0042”. this is really quite fast. Try installing a compound gear setup & slowing your rate of feed down to .002” or less. I have a Pick-O-Matic drive box and can select only 3 speeds. My fastest of the 3 is .0042”. And that is almost too fast for anything but the lightest of cuts in aluminum. The speed I use the most is 1/2 of that .0021". And for finish cuts 1/2 of that .0010". Very slow.
> Mike



I did a modification that I found online that “halves” the feeds. Then you just move the threads per inch “up a line” on the QCGB so my feed is .0021 per rotation. A very good point though. I will follow each of the points that everyone has made (I’ve made a checklist) and will report back next week. 

Cheers. 

Derek. 


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## bill stupak (May 21, 2020)

If you could post a pic of the steel finish that might be helpful. When cutting, how much material is sticking out of the chuck? If more that 3 times the dia. the end should be supported. Are you sure you are on center with the tool? if you take a facing cut does it leave a nub in the center? The spindle  adjustment might have loosened. put an indicator on the chuck and try to move it. Trying HSS is a good move, but the insert type you have should work okay. I have a 12" 3/4hp Atlas and CCMT insert tooling works fine on steel as long as the nose radius is not too large. as others have  said uplift on the carriage could be the culprit. I would test it with an indicator. I don't have any experience with 5C collet chucks. but it looks to me that there is an awful lot stick out with just the chuck and that may be a source of flex. Just for ****z and giggles try a 3 or 4 jaw chuck. Once you get this bug fixed though I think you will be very happy with the lathe.


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## mikey (May 21, 2020)

Derek, that is a beautiful restoration you did. She looks better than new!

I agree with everyone else that HSS would be a better idea than inserted carbide. You are currently using a 1/2 SCLCR tool with a worn insert (see the flank wear on the side of the insert - that insert is shot). If you choose to use it, use a new one with the smallest nose radius you can find and orient the tool shank perpendicular to the work piece. You should also consider using an CCGT AK insert. While it is intended for use with Aluminum, it will also cut steel just fine. The AK insert has a very positive rake that will reduce cutting forces significantly and may help more than you might think.

I also agree with using a plinth. It will help reduce flexion in your set up.

I do not agree with having to mount the lathe flat on a surface. If the surface is solid then mounting it on leveling studs will be fine. My Emco Super 11 is heavier than your lathe is and is mounted on two studs per end. It is rigid and solid, with zero issues in use. Please reconsider the use of shims - that is misery and you will hate it every single time you level the lathe!

You have gotten some really solid advice in the posts above, especially about using HSS. Your lathe has great potential and HSS will wake it up. If you need help, post up in the Model Tools thread and we'll give you a hand.


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## Moderatemixed (May 21, 2020)

mikey said:


> Derek, that is a beautiful restoration you did. She looks better than new!
> 
> I agree with everyone else that HSS would be a better idea than inserted carbide. You are currently using a 1/2 SCLCR tool with a worn insert (see the flank wear on the side of the insert - that insert is shot). If you choose to use it, use a new one with the smallest nose radius you can find and orient the tool shank perpendicular to the work piece. You should also consider using an CCGT AK insert. While it is intended for use with Aluminum, it will also cut steel just fine. The AK insert has a very positive rake that will reduce cutting forces significantly and may help more than you might think.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your comments. I hope that I can get things figured out! I will send that insert packing. I am going to step away from carbide and focus on HSS until I get the lathe “under control”. I am going to try to support it differently, but maintain the posts, a hybrid solution so-to-speak. I will report back to the thread next week with my progress, success and/or failure. 

Cheers

Derek


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## WCraig (May 22, 2020)

Moderatemixed said:


> When I put a piece of stock into the chuck, I look at the material, the feed, the speed, and once I start turning I have on one occasion gotten nice chips (in mild steel) but in most cases I get a surface finish rivaled by a teenagers “zit covered” face and vibrations that my wife says put ripples in her coffee 2 floors up. (I’m in the basement). *Even with aluminum* the lathe often vibrates like an ultrasonic cleaner!


[emphasis added]

Even aluminum?  It is not some special aircraft-grade aluminum, is it?  What about brass?  I would suggest you get the lathe working with softer, easier-to-machine metals and then play with some steel.  Even then, start with some known, easy-to-machine steel like 12L14.  Early on, I tried to turn some random mystery metal and it wouldn't cut at all.  I'm now pretty sure it was hardened steel and needed to be annealed.  As a newb, it just seemed to be laughing at me!

As so many others have said, HSS cutters ought to help.  In all deference to Mikey's thread on sharpening, I found the following web page (and one page pdf summary) to be clear and easy to follow:



			Basic Lathe Tool Grinding
		


Probably it is fine, but I'm not familiar with that style of QCTP.  To be sure though...the tool needs to be secure in the holder; the holder has to be rigidly mounted to the tool post and the tool post must be held securely to the compound.  Have you gone through these interfaces?  Perhaps, say, a nut is hitting the end of threads before really clamping down?  

Craig


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## shadetreedad (May 27, 2020)

One more quick thing. On the attached photo it looks like your QCTP is not centered on the compound.  Try moving it near the center. Maybe won't help with the issue, but it's worth a try. 
Mike

ke


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## JPMacG (May 27, 2020)

Derek,
That really is a beautiful lathe.  You did one fine job.   I have a similar Atlas lathe, although not nearly as good looking.  I am generally pleased with the surface finishes that it gives me.  I'm just a beginner hobbyist, so I don't know much, but here are some things I noted:

I work mostly with aluminum alloys, brass, 12L14, stainless 303 and Delrin - the easy stuff.
I use hand ground HSS tooling.  The sharpness and the nose radius are critical to surface finish.  I have not had much luck with carbide insert tooling, although my experience is very limited.
My chucks are short - so I'm working closer to the spindle.
I lock the gibs on all axes except the one I need to move for a particular operation.
I had significant pulley vibration.  The old Zamac motor and small countershaft pulleys were wobbling slightly (does Zamac cold flow?).  I turned new pulleys from 6061, and they run true.  I still get some vibration from the big countershaft pulley.  I purchased a second one on eBay but it wobbled about the same as the original.  That pulley is too big for me to make.
The motor configuration with it hung from the bed is just a bad design.  I have put rubber shock mounts on the motor, and they help some with vibration, but I still feel the motor vibration on the bed.
Replacing the belts helped some with vibration.  The original circa 1954 belts were stiff.


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