# 1984 Crown Lathe (Honden) -  Wiring Help Please



## PancakeCritter (Apr 15, 2021)

Hello,

First off, let me know if this is the wrong section for this, or maybe I should double post in the Asian Lathes section? 

Anyways, I recently acquired a 1984 Crown lathe I am attempting to revive. It seems to be similar to the Honden/Jet lathes of this era. Unfortunately some of the wiring to the magnetic contactors isn’t complete. Would anyone with a similar lathe be willing to upload a picture of their wiring box?

I found a Honden wiring diagram that seems accurate, but I am uncertain which pole controls the coil. The side terminals or maybe 13/14? 

Also....in the picture, I labeled the conduits. I'm not sure I understand the role of "C"; it leads to a box under the power feed. 


A: 110V in

B: Motor

C: Unknown

D: Power control (emergency stop)




















Thanks,
Alex


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## markba633csi (Apr 15, 2021)

Hi Alex,  what horsepower rating is the motor? I assume it's a dual voltage 120/240 type.  I see what looks like the outline of a transformer above the fuse holder.  Is it possible the orginal burned out and the PO removed it?
The contactors may be either 24 volt coils or 120 volt.  I see some terminals in the back that might be the coils
-Mark


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## macardoso (Apr 15, 2021)

Hi PancakeCritter (Love the name lol),

Happy to help you with the wiring. I do industrial controls as a job so I am very familiar with this style of wiring diagram.

First off, I will assume that you are using this with 220/240VAC single phase (typical of residential appliance wiring). If you plan on running this at 120V let me know, but the amp draw will be pretty high.

There are a pair of contactors (big multi-pole relays for power switching) which control the motor. Depending on which is "pulled in" determines the direction of rotation of the motor.

Your AC power from your house is wired in at the terminals "R" and "S" on the left. Not shown is the ground, but that is very important and should never be omitted (safety reasons). If you are unfamiliar with grounding practices, let me know and we can chat about that more in detail.

The power feeds a pair of contactors labeled "F" and "R" for forward and reverse. Each symbol that looks like -| |- is a Normally Open (N.O.) contact. Don't love the terminal labeling in the diagram. Not obvious how it is wired.

Now from the looks of it, some parts of your cabinet have been removed. Also from the linked wiring diagram, your switches on the front of the machine are carrying the full 220VAC. That is OK, but not my preference. We might need to modify the wiring a bit.

Under the motor wiring is the control wiring. This shows all of the switches, buttons, lamps, and coils of the contactors. I would definitely make sure I had a 500mA fuse in line with wire #1. This would limit the fire hazard if one of the control wires were to short. I would also make sure I had appropriate overcurrent protection on terminals R & S. This should be sized not larger than 125% of the motor Full Load Amps (FLA) on the nameplate. For example if the motor draws 10A at full load, you would need an overcurrent protective device or upstream breaker no larger than 12A.

If you can give a few more pictures of the inside of the cabinet from different angles it will help to see what you are working with. Especially the terminal strip below the contactors.

-Mike



For reference, here is the wiring diagram out of my lathe - a bit different from yours since mine has a 4 wire motor.


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## markba633csi (Apr 15, 2021)

We don't know yet what voltage the contactor coils are, and I hesitate to just go ahead and power it up without knowing for sure
I'm thinking a ohm test of the coils is in order first
-Mark


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## macardoso (Apr 15, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> We don't know yet what voltage the contactor coils are, and I hesitate to just go ahead and power it up without knowing for sure
> I'm thinking a ohm test of the coils is in order first
> -Mark


100% agreed. Based on the condition of the wiring it looks like the panel is incomplete and needing attention. I'd like to see more pictures of the setup, including the contactors and motor, before I would advise doing anything.


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## markba633csi (Apr 15, 2021)

Yep. May very well need to purchase another transformer too before we are done


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 15, 2021)

Mark/Mike,
Thank you both for the enthused help! It may be of help to let you know I'm a mechanical engineer...but I'm not afraid of the pixies.

Mike,
For now, I'm planning to run on 110V. The motor is a 2HP 110/220V - 12/24A, so I'll need a 30A if I plan to actually utilize it on 110. I need to check the wire gauge that is run to this building before I do that. I'm hoping to run 220V to the building in the near future, but have some concrete surrounding the building so its more of a project than I have time for at the moment. My goal is to get it spinning, update the belts, clean everything up, etc.

The box does have a 5A fuse inline with #1, but I need to replace it. I do plan to replace/update the switches too eventually. I'll probably ohm the existing ones tonight to verify they're working correctly.

I do have some other pictures, but it will still be hard for you to see the side terminals of the contactors. I'll take more for you guys later.

The top two terminals are tied together, as are the bottom two. Top and bottom isolated, I think.

Not being at home, here is a quick sketch of the current contactor wiring, minus the top/bottom terminals. (coils)?
The yellow wires labelled "2" both go to the bottom terminal. The top terminal doesn't have anything going to it, other than being tied together.


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## benmychree (Apr 15, 2021)

It is obvious that there was a control transformer in there and the two loose wires were attached to the secondary side of it, that infers that the controls are either on 110 or 24 volt, and you need to determine which it is, another thing, you need to determine if the motor is in fact dual voltage, it may not be.


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 15, 2021)

benmychree said:


> It is obvious that there was a control transformer in there and the two loose wires were attached to the secondary side of it, that infers that the controls are either on 110 or 24 volt, and you need to determine which it is, another thing, you need to determine if the motor is in fact dual voltage, it may not be.


Here's the motor plate. The coil is 100V 50Hz, 100-110V 60Hz.


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## benmychree (Apr 15, 2021)

In like Flynn!


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## markba633csi (Apr 16, 2021)

You may be able to run it on a 30 amp circuit but you need to be careful- the wiring in the walls may heat up and you don't want to burn your building down.  Remember the startup surge can be as high as 5X the running current so you need a breaker with some time delay, 2-3 seconds.
You really should consider running 240 volts sooner rather than later for a motor that large; it's easier on the contactors, less arcing, for one thing. More power delivered to the motor with less voltage drop in the supply wiring for another.

In theory you could run the contactors straight off 120 volts but I wouldn't.  It's not as safe and they will overheat and fail prematurely. You really should  get a 120 volt isolation transformer that has a 100 volt tap.  A 100 watt unit would be sufficient (100 VA) You can use the same transformer when you switch to 240 volt service, you just run a neutral so you'll still have 120 volts to supply the transformer.

Believe it or not this would probably work:  I don't know if it's isolated or not








						Koden StepDown Transformer AC 100 volt  | eBay
					

Input:   AC 120V   Output:  AC 100V. For 100v appliances from Japan. Good Working Condition. The machine I used it for no longer works so I don't need it anymore.



					www.ebay.com


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 20, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> You may be able to run it on a 30 amp circuit but you need to be careful- the wiring in the walls may heat up and you don't want to burn your building down.  Remember the startup surge can be as high as 5X the running current so you need a breaker with some time delay, 2-3 seconds.
> You really should consider running 240 volts sooner rather than later for a motor that large; it's easier on the contactors, less arcing.
> 
> In theory you could run the contactors straight off 120 volts but I wouldn't.  It's not as safe and they will overheat and fail prematurely. You really should  get a 120 volt isolation transformer that has a 100 volt tap.  A 100 watt unit would be sufficient (100 VA) You can use the same transformer when you switch to 240 volt service, you just run a neutral so you'll still have 120 volts to supply the transformer.
> ...


I like this idea, I'll probably pickup a transformer


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 20, 2021)

It seems difficult to find an isolating transformer with 100VAC secondary. 

Although non-isolating, this one should work: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/hammond-manufacturing/166G100/455170


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## markba633csi (Apr 20, 2021)

No that one, like most standard transformers, is isolated.  The issue is that it's only 50 watt. That may not be enough to pull a contactor coil and run the indicating lights.
Do you have a multimeter that can measure ohms?  If you know the ohm value of one of the contactor coils that would give a better idea
V/R = I  ; 100 volts divided by R (ohms) equals the current I (amps)  You want less than 500 mA (0.5 amp)
-Mark


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 20, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> No that one, like most standard transformers, is isolated.  The issue is that it's only 50 watt. That may not be enough to pull a contactor coil and run the indicating lights.
> Do you have a multimeter that can measure ohms?  If you know the ohm value of one of the contactor coils that would give a better idea
> V/R = I  ; 100 volts divided by R (ohms) equals the current (amps)  You want less than 500 mA (0.5 amp)
> -Mark


Great idea Mark, I'll check it out with my trusty Fluke. Hopefully its less than 200 ohms with room for the light. Not a big deal if I have to step up to a larger transformer.


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## markba633csi (Apr 20, 2021)

OK righteous,  just give a shout if you have a question
My feeling is that 0.5 amp will probably just get you by-
-M


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 20, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> OK righteous, just give a shout if you have a question
> My feeling is that 0.5 amp will probably just get you by-
> -M



77.7 Ω and both coils were identical. 

The only mystery left is how the reverse switch works on this lathe. Any ideas how it’s triggered? It’s under the power feed gearbox. 













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## markba633csi (Apr 21, 2021)

Something seems a little fishy-  77 ohms seems unusually low.  That would be about 130 watts, way too high for a contactor coil- we should be seeing something like 300 ohms or even more-  I checked some comparable contactors and they are usually less than 25 watts
Did you disconnect one of the coil wires before taking the measurement?


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> OK that little transformer would not have worked.  100/77 = 1.29 amp  or 129 watts just for the coil.  Another 20 watts or so for the indicator lights so you need about a 150 watt transformer or 1.5 amp.  A 200 watt unit is probably more common but will require some searching, might have to buy used from a surplus dealer
> I'm afraid I don't know how the reversing switch is actuated- It may have a friction clutch off the feed shaft


Thanks. I just read through the Grizzly manual.....I didn't realize the power button isn't latching and just a jolt to rotate the spindle. So the lever above the reversing switch is fwd/off/reverse.  Simple


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## markba633csi (Apr 21, 2021)

I just reposted- check post #18 again


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> I just reposted- check post #18 again


Yes, I removed all wiring to the coils. I kind of thought the same, but my Fluke read 77.7 on both coils, not even a marginal difference between the two. Maybe they're bad?


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## markba633csi (Apr 21, 2021)

It does seem too close to be believable- let me cogitate on this for a bit and get back to you- what model Fluke is it?
Looks like you have some repairs to do on the gearbox lever and the steady rest-  the machine had a rough ride it looks like
-M


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> It does seem too close to be believable- let me cogitate on this for a bit and get back to you- what model Fluke is it?
> Looks like you have some repairs to do on the gearbox lever and the steady rest-  the machine had a rough ride it looks like
> -M


Fluke 117. 

Yeah it does appear so, but I basically stole it from an estate sale LOL. I don't have much to lose, but I plan to restore a lot of it over time.


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> It does seem too close to be believable- let me cogitate on this for a bit and get back to you- what model Fluke is it?
> Looks like you have some repairs to do on the gearbox lever and the steady rest- the machine had a rough ride it looks like
> -M



While I was in there, I also checked the contactor configuration. It’s 4NO 1NC. The middle terminal is NC and powers the respective coil, depending on the fed/reverse switch. 

While looking for an adequate 100/110V transformer, I’m beginning to wonder if I shouldn’t just update the contactors with a 24V coil and matching transformer. Thoughts? Is a solid state contactor an option too?


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## macardoso (Apr 21, 2021)

PancakeCritter said:


> While I was in there, I also checked the contactor configuration. It’s 4NO 1NC. The middle terminal is NC and powers the respective coil, depending on the fed/reverse switch.
> 
> While looking for an adequate 100/110V transformer, I’m beginning to wonder if I shouldn’t just update the contactors with a 24V coil and matching transformer. Thoughts? Is a solid state contactor an option too?
> 
> ...


I'd just go for a 120VAC coil. No XFMR or power supply required. Contactors are cheap.

Solid state are available but you never see them used for motor starting.


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

If that’s the case, the current coil is 110VAC. Seems like 120V should be fine, no? Less than 10% over design rating. 


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## macardoso (Apr 21, 2021)

PancakeCritter said:


> If that’s the case, the current coil is 110VAC. Seems like 120V should be fine, no? Less than 10% over design rating.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would think that would be OK. Coils might run a bit warm with shorter life, but you can do it.


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

macardoso said:


> I would think that would be OK. Coils might run a bit warm with shorter life, but you can do it.


That's my thought. And new coils would cost about what I paid for it, so if they fail its a forced upgrade.


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## markba633csi (Apr 21, 2021)

I didn't look at the picture closely enough and didn't realize the coils are rated 100-110 volts
It should be safe to run them straight off 120 volts and don't need to use a transformer as long as the machine itself is well grounded
My eyesight is getting worse in my old age LOL

Yes you could convert the system over to 24 volts with a transformer but you would have to change out all the indicator light bulbs too- kind of a lot of work you probably would rather avoid

I still am scratching my head at the ohms reading you got-  it's a mystery.  Those two flying yellow wires would connect to the R and S power input terminals I think


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> I didn't look at the picture closely enough and didn't realize the coils are rated 100-110 volts
> It should be safe to run them straight off 120 volts and don't need to use a transformer as long as the machine itself is well grounded
> My eyesight is getting worse in my old age LOL
> 
> ...


Correct, the two flying yellows are S and R wires.

My plan to is first verify that S is hot and R is neutral.

The yellow S hot will power the #1 terminal into the emergency shut-off.

The blue wire is returning from the power status light, as a neutral correct?

#2 terminal is both coils tied together. So I think I need to connect the R flyer neutral here.

The top of #3 should remain empty, with the bottom red wires traveling hot from emergency stop to reverse switch.

#4 is hot to FWD coil and #5 is hot to Reverse coil, assuming the jolt button is designed to turn the spindle forward.

*Disclaimer: The wiring in the image below is obviously incorrect.*


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## markba633csi (Apr 21, 2021)

Someone has been messing around in there haven't they?  Has the stop button been bypassed?  I see (I think) three wires on #22 and none on #14
-M


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> Someone has been messing around in there haven't they?  Has the stop button been bypassed?  I see (I think) three wires on #22 and none on #14
> -M


Part of it was me lol. That picture of the stop button is deceiving, only red and yellow are actually on #22.


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 21, 2021)

It runs!!! Thanks for all of the help guys!


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## markba633csi (Apr 22, 2021)

Hey!  Cool news!  You'll have fun with that


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 22, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> Hey!  Cool news!  You'll have fun with that


Thanks. Its definitely quite the event when the contactors latch. They flutter a little, not sure if a transformer would clean that up. A VFD would be a dream...maybe some day. One of these days I'll pickup a current clamp....or an oscilloscope. I'm curious how high the in-rush current actually is. 

Time to start thinking about a path to 240V...other than a shortcut using my super long outdoor welding extension cord lol.


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## markba633csi (Apr 22, 2021)

Probably the high current surge from the motor is tweaking the AC waveform into a pretzel momentarily.  As long as it eventually latches.
That will most likely vanish when you convert to 240 V since the current will be halved
Remember when you do convert you need to connect one of the (formerly flying) yellow leads to neutral instead of power so that the control box is still powered by 120 volts.  
-M


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 22, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> Probably the high current surge from the motor is tweaking the AC waveform into a pretzel momentarily.  As long as it eventually latches.
> That will most likely vanish when you convert to 240 V since the current will be halved
> Remember when you do convert you need to connect one of the (formerly flying) yellow leads to neutral instead of power so that the control box is still powered by 120 volts.
> -M


I won't forget.

So it turns out the fwd/off/reverse selector isn't working, so the e-stop is currently more of an on/off. I do think that cleaning up the coil voltage waveform would help, but like you said, 240V should make an improvement as well.

I would test it using my 240V welding extension,....but rewiring the box for 240, and the motor windings as well, is more effort than I want for a quick experiment.


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## markba633csi (Apr 22, 2021)

So the latching function isn't actually working it sounds like?  Yeah you have more troubleshooting to do. You really want the e-stop to function as it should
At least you know it runs though


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## PancakeCritter (Apr 22, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> So the latching function isn't actually working it sounds like?  Yeah you have more troubleshooting to do. You really want the e-stop to function as it should


yeah...I plan to inspect/remove the reversing circuit. At least I could clean up some light aluminum stock if I needed to.


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