# PM-25 or PM-30 Looking for Dimensions and Picts



## wileel (Jul 15, 2017)

Hey guys I'm  trying to gather as much info as I can about making a mill purchase and have narrowed down the selection to either a PM-25 or -30. I know the rule about getting the biggest and heaviest you can afford, and while this makes perfect sense, its the size part that has me hung up.
First I'm looking for some dimensional help on both machines. I intended on putting the machine on my benchtop so first I would like to know how high the top of table is from the bottom of the machine so I can see if its feasible.
Also, and this would be as much if not more helpful... Does anyone have both machines where they can take a picture to gauge the scale of these machines in comparison? All of the photos/videos I see online are very misleading and...in some the -25 looks a decent size (I know that's subjective) and in others it looks tiny, when it comes to the -30 its easier to find picts of bigfoot riding a unicorn, granted there are a few but the sense of scale is off with limited references in the frame.
Don't laugh, but Ive resorted to setting push pins into the wall in front of me to try and get a sense of scale...its helps but some real photos of BOTH machines where you can judge scale would be sooo helpful!!

I appreciate any help

Chris


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## 19E60 (Jul 16, 2017)

Chris,
On my PM30, from bottom of machine to top of table is 8 3/16".  Hope this helps.

Kurt


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 16, 2017)

On my PM25, from the bottom of the machine to the top of the table is 6.7/8". Hope this helps, too. 

I have it secured to the top of a retired kitchen counter,which is mounted securely against the wall on 2X 4 legs. The machine is solid, though I'm sure it's considerably lighter than the PM 30. Its adequate for my needs.


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## wileel (Jul 16, 2017)

Thanks guys! Can either of you comment on the size difference between the two machines? Just looking for imprssions...it the -30 feel too big or does the -25 feel petite,...that kinda stuff 
I'm currently deployed but got the bench height from the shop, I'm at 35" so trying to get a read if I but either of these up there it will be workable or uncomfortable since I'm not a big guy (5'7")

Kurt;...loaded question, do you ever feel like the -30 is too big or cumbersome

Tom; How high is your counter and do you feel like the table height is good for all of your operations and adjustments to the machine at that height?


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 16, 2017)

Counter height is 44.5, vice 3.5 or so. Its comfortable, another inch wouldn't hurt, but I like to get close to my work.  With a 1 1/2" face mill I was able to cut an 18" flat on a piece of round stock. That's how long I wanted, could maybe have gotten another inch, I'm not sure. The point being that table travel is somewhat limited. I don't ever expect to make anything longer than that, though. 
I did install a motor on the head, I could feel my shoulder asking for help cranking the head up and down, but that was a function of cranking, though it could have been because the crank was at the top of the column. 
It looks like the PM 30 is an inch wider and 5 inches longer (table) than my 25, and the base is heavier, higher. I think if it had been available when I got my 25 I'd have had to think long and hard about which to get.


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## 19E60 (Jul 17, 2017)

No Chris I don't get that feeling at all. The base of my mill is 31 1/2 inches off the floor; center of Z handle to the floor is 68 inches. I would prefer the table itself to be a few inches higher say about 6, but that would put the Z crank up that much higher. I'm 6'2" and although I could reach a higher handle my shoulder would be complaining,; it's comfortable for me where it is.  If I had a power feed on the Z that would be a different story.


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## wileel (Jul 17, 2017)

Good stuff. Sounds like although my wall pin layout makes it look like the work piece and machine will be VERY tall and wide, it may be deceiving me... I read the overall handle to handle dimension on the -30 and 47" sounds crazy wide but the size of the -25 makes me wonder if its too small. This is a hard call...the extra $500 would go a long way towards tooling, DRO, or CNC but small price to pay for buyers remorse...I cant make up my mind..agrgghh. I need to see these things side by side...


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## mksj (Jul 17, 2017)

I would not look at what they appear to feel like or look like, I would look at what you want to do/make and get the the largest heaviest mill to meet your needs. I previously had a bench top size mill that was closer in size to the PM-932, and eventually out grew that to a full size knee. Even if you could see then side by side it won't tell you much about how they will work for you. CNC is a whole different level, requirements and significant cost.

I am the same height as you, you can adjust the machine height to your needs, so in this range the limitations are not how tall you are but what works for your needs. You really want to look at the weight of the machine (which helps rigidity), travel in the axis, speed, Hp, drive train/speed, voltage (120 or 240), ergonomics, etc. If you are on the fence between these two, then take a serious look at the PM-727V. It is twice the weight of the PM-25, and a bit more compact than the PM30. The Y axis has an extra 1.5" which is significant, variable speed with a great speed range. The Z axis hand crank is lower down as opposed to on the head which could be an issue if you are short. Do not sell your self short, get the most machine you can within reason and the features that are important. On my first mill it was 700lB and I though it would be too heavy and and had more than enough working dimensions, my current mill is 4x the weight and almost twice the work envelope and I am pushing the travel to the limits.


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## LEM (Jul 17, 2017)

Well if  were you I would call Matt and ask him to send you pix of the machines side by side.  I got the pm25 with x pwr feed and 3 axis dro.  One must remember that the cost of a basic mill is 1/2 of the total cost of getting set up to do milling or lathe work.


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## wileel (Jul 17, 2017)

I'll do that once I get home, My phone has been in airplane mode for 4 months now...sprint hasn't updated their network to this part of Africa ...in the mean time I'll request one over email.
Funny you mentioned the 727, that was originally what I was considering before the -30 but after reading and watching some videos I think I really like the belt drive stuff and I thought the -30 has more power so it seemed the extra $100 for the -30 was a better deal...but what do I know.

Choosing based on my needs isn't as easy as that, I wish it was. Considering I'm just getting into this I have no idea what those needs are at this point, however I rarely get into any hobby at the bottom tier 90% of the time that ends up in a total waste of money...its that fine edge somewhere in the middle where things get muddy and products overlap in their pro's and con's. Here what I know;

- I will be making "hobby size" parts (maybe brackets and such to add features to the machine or tooling) mostly from aluminum but still want to be able to machine other materials.
- I will be doing some gunsmithing and firearm part manufacturing
- I would like a quiet machine
- I know I am clueless
- I intend on CNC in the future if I enjoy this like I think I will

Now ya got me comparing 3 machines...this isn't getting any easier! hahaha

Im aware the cost of the machine isn't the whole price of machining, but its the biggest single purchase. I wouldn't mind loosing $100 on tooling in error...$2k on the other hand would sting!

BTW, thanks again to all of you helping me get through this...


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 17, 2017)

For what little it's worth, I bought some scrap (burnouts) of 4140.  I put them in the charcoal broiler, let them burn and cool down in the ashes. They are about  Rockwell C 35. I've been working them up into small bits of tooling, using nothing but high speed steel tools, lathe and mill .I've tapped a couple of them 8-32 for set screws. All on my PM25, no problem, just cut slowly.


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## mksj (Jul 18, 2017)

Based on your comments, I would say the PM-30 would be more optimal. Just going to a 2HP motor at 240V will make a significant improvement, and the belt drive will be quieter and more adaptable to CNC if you ultimately go that route. Although the CNC route requires a lot of other considerations and costs, so I would look at the immediate needs. Having the increased capacity in the different axis is very significant, it is amazing how fast you can hit the limits of your Y and Z travel. In particular when you add a vice and DRO scales, which can reduce the Y/Z travel. If one is machining smaller parts, I still think the PM-727V is a great all around mill for the size and you are limited to 120V. Years ago I ordered a mill from QMT similar to the PM-30, but due to delays I purchased a BF-30. It had similar travel, was about 200Lbs heavier and had a 3Hp BLDC motor. I never had an issue with power, but it used a 3 speed gear head which was fairly noisy at the higher speeds. I learned a lot using the mill and had a better understanding of the travel limit issues. I rarely used speeds above 2400 RPM, even for aluminum, but the increased power allowed significant meatal removal using a rougher end mill. If CNC you often use smaller end mills and much higher speeds. Most CNC conversions replace the motor and extensively modified the mill.


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## 19E60 (Jul 18, 2017)

I too will be doing some gunsmithing on my machines. A new rifle stock is arriving today and will need some inletting, as well as a couple of other stocks I have on hand. This and other reasons is why I chose the 30, a longer table. Could I accomplish these tasks on the shorter table of the 25? Most probably, but I just feel better having the extra 5 1/2 ".


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## wileel (Mar 3, 2018)

Thread back from the dead! 

I pulled the trigger and got the PM-30, its literally on a slow boat from China, but since we are both on the wrong side of the globe right now it works out...with any luck we will both get home around the same time.

That being said, I'm looking to see if any of you who have one would do me favor and pass on the dimensions of the top of the column and base. I'm killing time here making plans and modeling the brackets for the CNC motors but don't have measurements to make a good sketch, any help is greatly appreciated!

Here is what I'm looking for:

 The dimensions of this area of the base. Looking for the size/angle where if flares out from the where the cross slide rests to the bottom. I'm thinking about mounting to the side of the base along its depth (running below and parallel to the cross slide 









The dimensions of the area of the to of the column to include where the bolt holes are located. I'm trying to model a replacement for item #23


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## EmilioG (Mar 3, 2018)

Can someone tell me what that box shaped cage around the PM mills drill chuck is for? I've never seen this on a mill.
I would consider buying a new PM mill rather than an old BP.  I also see that the vari speed PM mills have less RPM spindles than the belt drive models.


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## T Bredehoft (Mar 3, 2018)

The   _*box shaped cage around the PM mills drill chuck *_ is a plastic guard, electrically tied to the motor. When It's open the motor won't turn. 

Some have removed it and live dangerously.


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## shooter123456 (Mar 22, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> The   _*box shaped cage around the PM mills drill chuck *_ is a plastic guard, electrically tied to the motor. When It's open the motor won't turn.
> 
> Some have removed it and live dangerously.


Mine was removed within 15 seconds of the first milling operation.  It hit the vice and wouldn't let the head get low enough for the end mill to get to the workpiece.


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