# D-bit Tool Cutter Grinder R8 to 5C work head conversion



## petertha (Mar 8, 2022)

I have a the typical Chinese TCG purchased from Accusize here in Canada a few years back. Sadly not getting the attention it deserves, but I aim to change that.








						2301-1007, MY-30A Universal Cutter Grinder with Standard Accessories, 110v, 60hz
					

When you choose Universal End Mill Cutter Drill Bit Grinder Sharpener, it works as the following tools (and solutions): Universal End Mill Cutter Drill Bit Grinder Sharpener, etc.




					accusizetools.com
				




But having buyers remorse. Its R8 collet work head. At the time that was desireable because most were the Ux Dekel format which were pita to source. I already have a full set of good quality 5C collets, limited selection of R8. I could go out & buy R8 set but having tough time justifying. I don't really use them all that often in the mill or other applications. Maybe it was around the same time but Shars offered their 5C model.





						Universal End Mill Cutter Drill Bit Grinder Sharpener
					

Shars Tool




					www.shars.com
				




I inquired with Shars if I could buy the 5C work head separately. Thinking (hoping) it will likely fit my dovetail, since these machines look generically similar & come in R8, 5C & original Ux flavors. The answer is yes, comes with the pivot for some reason. Not cheap, but maybe inline with collet set.





						End Mill Sharpening Attachment
					

Shars Tool




					www.shars.com
				




Then I went lurking on AliExpress & Ebay. Rather confusing & still waiting on some replies but possibly I can get 5C head via that avenue, example pic

My question is, have any of you swapped out a head? Any issues I should be aware of? Shars mentioned one of the flute attachment guide accessories wont fit the same, of no real consequence.


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## petertha (Mar 9, 2022)

I had this idea pop in my head that I could use my R8-ER20 collet chuck. Just plop that in the TCG work head & that would give me some continuous gripping range vs an extensive incremental (guessing 1/32") graduated set of R8 collets. Alas, some disappointment. The collets slide in but not the chuck arbor. Turns out they left the set screw a bit long inside the barrel & its scraping my shallower toolholder groove. I had this same issue on my mill, but I was able to locate the head under the quill cover ring & just back off the screw. On the TCG it looks like some major disassembly to gain access. And judging by its brother, the end mill flute accessory quill, they thread it in permanent, maybe some tap peeing & grind it off all purdy like with disc grinder :/

For reference, Accusize came back with a firm NO via their supplier. No 5C heads available.
Still trying to communicate with the other sellers. To be continued.

I'm actually scratching my head about these grinders in general. Back in the Deckel days, did they really have a full suite of collets? Or maybe say a handful of standard sizes & they just matched the shanks? I had hopes of sharpening drills & changing geometry & custom cutters with any kind of shank - hence my perceived requirement for an incremental set. I'm not even sure R8 are supposed o be squeezed down that much? For example if say 0.015" below nominal, well then even a 1/32" increment set wont really span continuous diameters. My 5C set is 1/64" increment. Grrrr...


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## Larry$ (Mar 9, 2022)

I've got the Shars 5C T&CG but my set of collets is by 1/32s. So I can't do all the drill sizes. But even with 64s collet sets closing on small sizes is less than ideal if they don't fall very close to the nominal size. The drill sharpening attachment is a lot less than ideal. Also because the thread that pulls the collet in is driven by a closed crank handle, I cant pass work through the handle. Going to see if I can make it more like my collet blocks with a pass through hole. Another mod is going to be a way of easily locating the pivot point so radius corners can be easily done.


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## Eyerelief (Mar 9, 2022)

I have the shars 5c version as well.  I also have a 5C-ER16 collet chuck that I use occasionally.  The problem with the ER set up is it extends the nose of the collet out over an inch from the head.  Doesn't seem like much but it severally limits the rotation of the head towards the wheel.  As a result, in some situations a proper grind angle can't be achieved.  For instance I can't rotate an end mill up close enough to grind the shallow angles found on the bottom of a center cutter.  I would think the added capacity of an ER20 would only magnify this limitation.


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 9, 2022)

I recall Deckel's well, a mold shop afterall. The collets we had were common shank diameters; it's not a _true _T&C grinder.
Use biggest collet you have, with shopmade headed split bushings. Best not to split both sides; if you do, the head preserves axial and radial runout as made.
That'll keep stickout just as designed for the work envelope.


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## petertha (Mar 9, 2022)

Eyerelief said:


> I have the shars 5c version as well.  I also have a 5C-ER16 collet chuck that I use occasionally.  The problem with the ER set up is it extends the nose of the collet out over an inch from the head.  Doesn't seem like much but it severally limits the rotation of the head towards the wheel.  As a result, in some situations a proper grind angle can't be achieved.  For instance I can't rotate an end mill up close enough to grind the shallow angles found on the bottom of a center cutter.  I would think the added capacity of an ER20 would only magnify this limitation.


That's exactly what I was wondering to myself. Even with a low profile nut, I think the stick out would be problematic in many cases.  
I also considered a straight shank ER holder. The shank OD could standardize on common R8 ID & might improve stick out slightly if it could be pushed in a bit more. But now you have something holding something else holding the stock. Not good. This is collectively what drove me to the conclusion the best plan of action is replace the work head to 5C because I have the full collet set. Another potential plus is 5C offers square & hex whereas R8 does not. Not sure I'd use it but something to ponder.

I got the work head off last night & spotted many Yeesh factors that I'll have to fix up. Fully spray painted dove tails, machining burrs that were dragging on the ways, misaligned parts that explained lack of movement. I was kind of prepared for this having watched a few YouTubes including Stefan.G & Rob.R. I'll save that for another post. First things first.


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## Larry$ (Mar 9, 2022)

petertha said:


> I can get 5C head via that avenue


The shipping is a killer! The game of a low price and make it up in shipping.


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## petertha (Mar 10, 2022)

Yes, an ordinary day for a Citizen of Kanuckistan. Always have to factor shipping cost & currency FX & other potential dinger fees. The irony is shipping this part from China is probably the same cost as USA to here. Potentially cheaper. Shars is quite a bit more for the base part, possibly how they have it configured with the bottom swivel assembly. And its not in stock so moot point. But I'm not over the hump with AliExpress yet,, language & communication issues. Sometimes what they call 'color' means part number. They show the collet style as being available but so way I can see to select it & be sure, so proceeding with caution.

I'm not 100% sure if the work head casting is identical between the various collet versions & the difference is confined to the tube which is inserted & somehow retained within the casting hole. I had thoughts of disassembling my R8 head & turning a 5C tube, but... lots of fiddly parts & might be some mystery assembly techniques that would bite me. Pressed in vs. glued in vs. .....?


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## petertha (Mar 10, 2022)

This is what I mean about the insert collet tube (yellow) & presumably matching end thread tightening handle (green)


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 10, 2022)

petertha said:


> I had this idea pop in my head that I could use my R8-ER20 collet chuck. <<<<<snipped>>>>>>I'm not even sure R8 are supposed o be squeezed down that much? For example if say 0.015" below nominal, well then even a 1/32" increment set wont really span continuous diameters. My 5C set is 1/64" increment. Grrrr...


Generally speaking, collets that pinch have diameter 'tolerance' are more cylinder like, with longer slots and proportionally shorter tapers and classified_ 'work holders'._ 
ER's and similar combine the traits but collapse lengthwise over a significant range and hold either quite well. Tools are straighter, rounder and more concentric to their function than material. 
R8 and the like are _tool holders,_ with closed ends for drawbars or knock out bars, not conducive for holding material. BUT, in home shop environment R8 collet blocks would answer a need, bridging a gap before outlay and committing to 5C. Like this.....


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## petertha (Mar 10, 2022)

I've been watching a lot of TCG YouTube content & its amazing the variation in usage. I guess on one hand that possibly speaks to the flexibility of the D-bit style machine. Or maybe another perspective is that not all methods are awesome.

The Vee drill holder accessory included with my kit is not pretty from any angle. I've seen some people toss it aside, others modify, others rebuild from scratch using better drill retention & orientation clamps. As best I can figure this jig is meant to grind the classic edge where the cone relieves back continuously via the jig swiveling on its axle in the collet. But I think it could also rock laterally across the ways of desired? So that Vee jig would accommodate variable drill diameters & therefore not confined to matching collets. Stefan shows a drill held in collet with the 4-facet method stroking across the wheel (only) no rotational component other than to repeat operation at 180-deg. So this would require matching collets.

Toolmaker51 I've looked around for R8 collet blocks in the past. They are not abundant the way 5C & R8 are. They could be made. the bigger question is then what? I could maybe remove the collet work head & mount to a different/dedicated tooling block like the one they offer for lathe tools & what not. The good thing is the dovetails would lend themselves to tool block retention. Not sure how that would help hold incremental dill sizing. I was thinking something like a precision mini chuck. But that might have the same sickout issues as ER & be even more limited to length.

I'm sure there is a solution in here somewhere & once I get going on it things will become more apparent. The decision meter is still tilting slightly to 5C though.

I'm also getting a vibe that there are different quality builds to these not necessarily reflected in pictures. The U2 style Stefan.G has & the Shars U2 that Rob Renzetti has looks  better than mine in may regards. And I'm not talking about their replaced parts & overclocking features. The Shars has nice rotation shafts for the work heads, mine are meaty chunks of blacksmith iron. Rob.R mentioned the Grizzly (Taiwan?) is an upscale version of his (Chinese) but 2-3x the cost. I assumed all Chinese TCG's were probably the same, but I now have my doubts.

Before I go too far, I did some searching on forum but surprisingly there isn't really a lot of posts & chatter on these TCG's which surprised me. Am I missing some forum areas where these are discussed in more detail? Happy to start something & can post the YouTube links etc. I've collected. Would be happy to hear how others are getting on with theirs.


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## petertha (Mar 10, 2022)

Stefan 4 facet grind.


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 10, 2022)

Somehow 'that' *C* word has been dropped from certain posts I submit.
Well, I submit quality control, quality management and quality checks aren't the same, nor electives in manufacturing.
Products from one area of one continent has nothing on their offshore competition, aside from copious over production.


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## Larry$ (Mar 11, 2022)

There is a youtuber from Australia that has done some good mods to a D bit grinder. His corner rounding one is very nice. I'm too lazy to make it and just eyeball and free hand for close enough. 
These contraptions can do OK work but are not tool & cutter grinders. Their small working area is often limiting. 
Figuring out how to do setups can be a challenge also.


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## petertha (Mar 11, 2022)

Maybe you are thinking of Projects Down Under?
Once I think I've scraped most of the video links, maybe I'll organize into pdf & upload. Aside from Rob.R & Stefan.G there's also Tool & Die Guy, Blondihacks, Woods Creek, Dave.M.... many international. Some are Deckel rebuilds but insightful as to the innards & root machine basis.

I'll drop one here pertaining to the drill jig by Luc Wybo. A bit hard to follow but I think there is some thought put into the drill jig fixturing geometry.


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## petertha (Mar 11, 2022)

Different machine obviously (and big-asz drill) but I like how the drill is set once in a symmetrical box holder


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## brino (Mar 11, 2022)

I am following along.
Thanks for all the info and links.

I have wanted one of these for years, but never found one with all the features I wanted for a price I was willing to pay.
The biggest feature being 5C collet compatible.

By the way Grizzly has discontinued theirs:
https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-tool-and-die-grinder/g0687
but still appear to have some of the accessories available.

Brian


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## petertha (Mar 11, 2022)

Interesting about Grizzly. A place here in Canada sells what I think is the Taiwan version with U collets. When I checked a few years ago it was like $2700 CDN ~2000 USD. I've never seen one in the flesh so cant speak to build quality.


			https://bauerltd.ca/grinders-u2
		


Looks like Taiwan machines are still produced, suspect like most machines, available under different distributer labels & paint schemes. 








						U2
					






					www.imachine.com.tw
				











						VERTEX U2 Universal Cutter Grinder | VERTEX MACHINERY WORKS CO., LTD.
					

Find Details about VERTEX U2 Universal Cutter Grinder from Taiwan Tool & Cutter Grinder supplier-VERTEX MACHINERY WORKS CO., LTD. Source  on Taiwantrade.



					1twvertexvise.en.taiwantrade.com
				




And then there's Cuttermaster. Guessing premium but it will set your credit card on fire








						Search Results
					

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					accusizetools.com


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## Lucas E (Mar 18, 2022)

Ive heard there are a lot of different varieties with the d-bit clone grinders. Some of them have different spindle tapers, etc. I would be very surprised if the shars head bolts right on without modification. 

That being said. I have the shars universal grinder. It is probably the highest quality machine tool I've ever seen from China. I would buy it again. You're probably best off just selling your current unit and buying the shars. They run 15% off sales once or twice a year. I bought mine during the black Friday sale end of last year. The machine is actually a very good price for all the attachments it comes with, but shipping adds hundreds of dollars. I was able to get the shipping down by haven't them ship to a local Fed ex distribution center and I drove down to pick it up. It was on a small pallet and they loaded it into my truck with a forklift.

One final thing, does your 5c collet set have internal threads? The shars 5c head uses the internal threads to pull in the collet, so if your collets aren't threaded internally they won't work.


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## petertha (Mar 18, 2022)

All good points Lucas. Yes my 5C collet set has inside threads, I was aware of that aspect. 
I'm kind of at a crossroads. Selling the Accusize & applying proceeds to a Shars has crossed my mind. Seeing some of the general external fit & finish of mine has me wondering what is under the hood. I'm personally convinced there are quality gradations among the manufacturers even though they originate from the same country. Unfortunately these TCGs are kind of heavy buggers to ship (to Canada). I do have means but the transport cost starts getting up there.


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## Lucas E (Mar 18, 2022)

Just adding a correction. I believe the black Friday sale from shars was actually 20% off


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 19, 2022)

accidental double post.


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## Illinoyance (Mar 25, 2022)

I have a Deckel style grinder from Harbor Freght.  It uses R8 collets.  For doing a 4 facet grind on drills I use my R8 x ER32 adapter.  I have a workhead for my T&C grinder that takes 5Cs.  I use that for larger drills.


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## petertha (Mar 25, 2022)

Thanks @Illinoyance. If its convenient for you one day, I'd like to see a picture of your setup with adapter. 
I'm not making much headway with Asian suppliers procuring a 5C head assembly to retrofit my R8. Not for lack of trying. I seriously wonder if some of these (re)sellers even understand what these machines do or what a collet is. I'll keep plugging away in the meantime.


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 25, 2022)

petertha said:


> Thanks @Illinoyance. <<<snipped>>>> I seriously wonder if some of these (re)sellers even understand what these machines do or what a collet is. I'll keep plugging away in the meantime.


"understand what these machines do" is not a requirement to sell things we've come to know as *lathe shaped object* for example. How much productive time has been lost to wrangling and written off as "kept plugging away"?

Tis but two of myriad PREDICTED issues brought down on us collectively; from the largest to smallest entities, the communications, customer satisfaction, and lack of poor means of recourse, via unchecked importation. Those predictions were from those with direct concerns, manufacturing industry itself. Sure, they were only experts that testified, outnumbered by callus lobbyists. The article ran IIRC in "_Machine Tool Bluebook_" mid 80's, along with easily thirty other probable, distinct issues. Every one occurred and continues; some (few) companies got the hint and resolved them. 
When I see a product, parading under a nonsensical word, their made-up company 'name', that's my signal to exit a deal.


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## ub27Rocks (Mar 25, 2022)

Just summarizing and providing some answers:
I have an Alexander 2CGD (D for inferial measurements) which uses E355/U2 collets. It is of superb quality, on par with Deckel.

-Deckel produced E355 collets (known as U2 now) in .5mm increments, possibly even less for their lines of pantographs. These collets, like 5C/3C, have a very limited clamping range. I think Schaublin might also have made same/similar collets.
- You should consider what you are trying to accomplish. If regrinding end mills, there are only 3 or 4 shank sizes to consider. If grinding drills then ER adapter is the solution. For end mills, get the appropriate R8 collets, and grind the slot deeper and get on with using the machine as is. For drills, get an R8-ER16/ER20 adapter with a set of collets.
- For grinding wierd stuff, like lathe tools, inserts etc. I built an add on from an article in Model Engineers Workshop title "Taming the 'Universal' Tool & Cutter Grinder. That same add-on is used for grinding my shop-made gear cutters and cutters for my Atlas MF.
- The same article has a dedicated 4 facet jig that mounts on the same add-on.
- For 4 facet drill grinding I designed and made a 'microscope' to view the grind progress without removing the drill from grinder.
- I made 10 or so hubs to mount wheels on, including a few that extend the wheel much farther out from the spindle. This lets me grind on the reverse side of a wheel (which is mount reversed on a hub). Hubs for the oldeer Deckel and Alexander are NLA.

Shipping is expensive for heavy objects, from China as should reasonably be expected. Shipping from US to Canada is generally extorionist level. Given that most of that product is from China in the first place I order direct from China. Quality will be similar at lower total cost to me. As an example, a PCB from Mesa was US$48 to ship to me, slowly. UPS/Fedex are even worse.


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## Illinoyance (Mar 25, 2022)

Petertha;
Here is the type of collet chuck I use on my grinder:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3539606441...CVIcGeQHbaL5AAAMKIvaGaJ8UA06|tkp:BFBMkP7Arfhf


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## ub27Rocks (Mar 25, 2022)

And here we have the other rather too common situation:


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## Illinoyance (Mar 25, 2022)

Is this better?
https://www.busybeetools.com/products/r8-bridgeport-shank-er32-collet-chuck.html


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## petertha (Mar 25, 2022)

Thanks, I can get the R8-ER toolholder no problem. I was more referring to stick-out of grinding something like a drill & maybe the ER nut getting in the way. But maybe a good portion of the arbor is hollow to accommodate longer items, more like a regular R8 collet? 

I actually have an R8-ER20 holder for the mill for gripping odd (metric) end mills & such. The only reason I didn't stick it directly into the TCG & test motion clearance is that the set screw inside the TCG holder is proud to the extent its dragging on the R8-ER toolholder slot. No easy way I can see to adjust without disassembly. I actually had to do the same thing on my 935 mill, but it was easy, just remove the nose cap. My R8 collets are deeper slot & slide in/out of TCG no problem.


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## Illinoyance (Mar 25, 2022)

I use enough stickout that there is no problem grinding the collet nut.  I sometimes use an ER16 collet chuck for smaller drills..


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## Lucas E (Mar 25, 2022)

I've considered getting a 5C to ER 32 chuck to grind drill bits in my shars unit. Has anyone had any success with this, or is the stickout too much?


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## woodchucker (Mar 25, 2022)

Lucas E said:


> I've considered getting a 5C to ER 32 chuck to grind drill bits in my shars unit. Has anyone had any success with this, or is the stickout too much?


I have a 5c to Er32 for my spindexer.. I wanted to use it on my surface grinder.. it really adds to the stickout tremendously.
Now going to get 5c as needed.


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## Illinoyance (Mar 25, 2022)

Lucas,
I have both ER32 and ER16 chucks that I can use on my D-bit grinder.  For smaller drills I use the ER16.  Stickout has not been a problem.


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## John O (Mar 25, 2022)

"The only reason I didn't stick it directly into the TCG & test motion clearance is that the set screw inside the TCG holder is proud"
Could you grind the set screw down with a dremel?


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## Illinoyance (Mar 25, 2022)

I dismantled the work head and removed the set screw.  Attacking it with a Dremel would be a good alternative.  As I remember on my grinder the width of the screw was s much a problem as the projection.  The other approach is to modify the key ways in the collets.


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## Larry$ (Mar 25, 2022)

Since we are all "machinists" here, why not make something that does what you want?


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## Illinoyance (Mar 25, 2022)

I did.


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## petertha (Mar 31, 2022)

I just realized something. My (Accusize) spindle arbor measures 0.75" OD and that (kinda) corresponds to the supplied AO grit wheel & aluminum cup diamond wheels that came with. My manual says wheels are 100x25x20mm wheel. 20mm = 0.787. Hmm... that's not 0.750" The wheel holes are not super accurate. The AO wheel fits like it should. the aluminum cup diamond wheels are tight slip fit or slightly too tight, which is another project I guess. The Accusize web site isn't any clearer on this issue even though the wheels can be purchased separately, no defined ID.

To you Shars TCG owners, from what I can tell of the Shars website & PDF manual the wheels are 1.25" hole ID (pics attached). If this is correct, has this always been the case of Shars machines? I wonder why the manufacturers departed in this regard. Is one (ID hole) style of wheel more prevalent than the other? Now that maybe explains the Shars adapter I see & people making their own combination wrench. Is that what thats about? I couldn't figure out why I would need to be undoing the hex bolt at the end of the shaft. My TCG included a steel spacer washer & threaded steel nut with the 2-pin wrench holes in end. Looks like the wheels just go over the plain part of the spindle.

*edit* maybe I have the Shars wrong? Another picture shows 2 kinds of adapters, 0.75" & 1.25"


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## petertha (Mar 31, 2022)

Illinoyance said:


> I dismantled the work head and removed the set screw.  Attacking it with a Dremel would be a good alternative.  As I remember on my grinder the width of the screw was s much a problem as the projection.  The other approach is to modify the key ways in the collets.


@Illinoyance I'll attach a picture when I offload my camera, but when I pulled the barrel from the other end mill flute attachment I could see where they installed a similar set screw collet key. It looks like they drilled/tapped a hole in the barrel, set it in with some Locktite & ground the proud excess off the OD... plus a little extra divot for good measure. Probably for oil retention haha. So I suspect the work head barrel will be similar set screw installation.

When you dismantled your head, did you encounter any issues worth noting? I may have to go this route, it doesn't look like I can get in there that deep with a Dremel stone even with shank extended. Maybe because the R8 is a bit longer or where they positioned it.


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