# This one has me stumped, what is it?



## JimDawson (Mar 2, 2019)

This being advertised as a ''Metal Lave'', so obviously the seller has no idea what it is either.  Any ideas?









						Metal lave
					

Not working lots of parts



					portland.craigslist.org


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## mmcmdl (Mar 2, 2019)

Interesting piece .  Looks big though .


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## mmcmdl (Mar 2, 2019)

It could possibly be an old VTL . Just saw the rest of the pics .


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## benmychree (Mar 2, 2019)

I'm sure that the person who built it was very proud of it.


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## darkzero (Mar 2, 2019)

It's a lave! So that means it must be some kind of washing machine.


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## mmcmdl (Mar 3, 2019)

Well , whatever it may be , something COOL could be made with it ! 









Just don't know what that may be at this point . Put it in the pile !


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## Martin W (Mar 3, 2019)

Looks like its made of plywood and painted?


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## Janderso (Mar 3, 2019)

Lava soap? Lava soap inspection machine? You know, before it leaves the factory.
Maybe the hot Lava goes in one end and the finished soap cubes on the other?
$300 for your own soap making machine seems reasonable.
Think of all the friends you could have. It comes with a serving tray.


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## projectnut (Mar 3, 2019)

Janderso said:


> Lava soap? Lava soap inspection machine? You know, before it leaves the factory.
> Maybe the hot Lava goes in one end and the finished soap cubes on the other?
> $300 for your own soap making machine seems reasonable.
> Think of all the friends you could have. It comes with a serving tray.



At that price you should snap it up in a heartbeat.  It's less than 1/10 the cost of the first soap wrapping machine model we used to test the skills of potential production line mechanics.  The "wrapping" machine was a model of one originally used at Procter & Gamble to wrap bars of soap in a paper package for retail sales.  It had all sorts of cams, gears, and levers that had to be perfectly timed for it to cycle a plastic block through the process.  The machine flipped the block over several times and reoriented it so the paper could be folded around it.  The original model cost in the $3,500.00 range with later models costing nearly $10,000.00.  It seemed like a lot of money for testing mechanical skills, but those who passed the test didn't have any problems diagnosing and repairing production machine problems.

Here's a link to a newer version of the machine we used.  I'll bet the cost has risen since the 1990's when we bought our latest one.





						Mechanical Skills Assessments - Scientific Management Techniques, Inc.
					

Mechanical Skills Assessments using the Standard Timing Model (STM) The Standard Timing Model is our mechanical skills assessment tool used to identify mechanical skills and competencies when hiring Maintenance Professionals, Machine Operators, Electro-Mechanical Personnel, Assemblers and...




					www.scientific-management.com


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## FOMOGO (Mar 3, 2019)

Looks like some pretty heavy steel plate in the base and head. Could probably be had for half the asking price, and worth that for the metal stock and parts. Of course I'm a sucker for oddball stuff like that. Mike


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Mar 3, 2019)

For the right price  i would definitely buy that, for what? I have no Idea but its got plenty of value just in the plate its made from in my opinion, assuming its not painted plywood!


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## JimDawson (Mar 3, 2019)

I thought about buying it, but I have too much junk around here anyway.

What I really don't understand is that the X-Z dovetail assembly on the head looks to be much more massive than the rest of the machine would support.  Looks like it would handle some serious cutting forces, way out of proportion to the rest of the machine.

The side plates on the frame look to be about 1/2 to 5/8 inch thick, and the supporting structure for the ''spindle'' bearing looks to be heavy sheet metal.  The carriage seems to be just sitting on the frame, held in place by gravity? But maybe there is a bearing on the underside to hold it down.  The pressed sheet metal rollers look too light for the machine. 

The whole thing looks to be mounted on a piece of 3/4 inch plywood, with hand wheel leveling screws at each corner.  This would suggest some kind of a portable machine that can be leveled easily.

I dunno.


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## Janderso (Mar 3, 2019)

Plus it has 3 legs, if the dove tails hold a table, the machine runs upside down from the adjustable legs. One is missing.
Probably the hot lava melted it.
Maybe the work gets bolted to the table and remains stationary, the machine moves around the work.
What was the British airplane that had a stationary crankshaft? The engine was fastened to the propeller and moved around the crankshaft.


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## Superburban (Mar 3, 2019)

Its a record player, made by a machinist.


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## francist (Mar 3, 2019)

I see a distinct similarity between the adjustable chrome feet and shutoff handles from radiator globe valves. Notwithstanding the distinct possibility of a lava processor, I wonder if we're looking at a movie prop? And is there a coincidence that part of a label featuring .."Theater..." appears in one of of the other photos?




-frank


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## bpimm (Mar 3, 2019)

"What was the British airplane that had a stationary crankshaft? The engine was fastened to the propeller and moved around the crankshaft. "

Sopwith Camel

This is only about 20 miles from me but I'm not sure what to do with it.


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## C-Bag (Mar 3, 2019)

bpimm said:


> "What was the British airplane that had a stationary crankshaft? The engine was fastened to the propeller and moved around the crankshaft. "
> 
> Sopwith Camel
> 
> This is only about 20 miles from me but I'm not sure what to do with it.


Go check it out in person and see if you can get a better idea what it was for?  It is really hard to tell if the other parts are actually supposed to go with it or not. It's also hard to tell if the base is wood or not as the one cross brace under the base on the left side of the pic  is obviously wood by the texture and splinters. Like Jim says it's a really odd mixture of heavy duty and not. Very curious.


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## higgite (Mar 3, 2019)

At last! My heretofore futile search for a turbo encabulator is finally over!






Tom


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## Bob Korves (Mar 3, 2019)

Janderso said:


> What was the British airplane that had a stationary crankshaft?


Many WW1 aircraft used "rotary" engines.  They are like a radial engine, except the crankshaft is bolted to the firewall and the crankcase and cylinders (and everything else) rotates around it.  There are quite a few of them around still, but often missing parts, and almost always missing the carburetor.  The carburetor was bolted to the pilot's side of the "firewall" (not), and often was scrapped with the airframe while the engines were saved, for scrap metal if for nothing else.  The carburetors mostly disappeared.  ~45 years ago I enrolled in a night machining class at a local high school.  It was completely project based, no book work time.  One of the attendees, a Scottish bagpipe player, was casting and machining lots of intricate parts.  I asked him about it, and he told me he was making a short run of carburetors off copies of the original plans for LeRhone rotary aircraft engines, and told me the entire story.  He gave me a tour of his home shop and his 2 restored LeRhone engines.  Also interesting is that those engines do NOT have a throttle, wide open all the time.  The only engine control was a push button magneto switch on the joy stick, hold it down and the engine runs at full power, let off and the power stops completely.  This was a pretty big deal , because the large amount of spinning engine weight made a large gyroscopic force that made those lightweight aircraft tricky and dangerous to fly, even without being shot at!  Not only that, the engine ran on gasoline mixed with castor oil, which was the total loss lubricant.  Each radial cylinder had a short exhaust pipe attached to it, and the exhaust, whether burned or not, washed over the pilot sitting behind the spinning engine.  At worst the exhaust could catch on fire or explode, at best it was a powerful laxative when breathed in.  So much for the gallant upper class pilots having the romantic job...


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## Janderso (Mar 3, 2019)

I believe Thomas Edison was at Ford's new assembly plant. He mentioned to Mr. Ford, very interesting but, what if the men stay on station, and the cars move by? (something to that affect)
What the heck were they thinking at the LeRhone engine plant? Bolt the crankshaft to the firewall?
Thanks Bob, I'm going to spend the afternoon researching the engine. Curios as I am.
Just watched a video, can you imagine the imbalance?


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## Bob Korves (Mar 3, 2019)

It is not just LeRhone, it is also Gnome, and quite a few others.  That was the hot deal at the time...








						Rotary engine - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## C-Bag (Mar 3, 2019)

Janderso said:


> I believe Thomas Edison was at Ford's new assembly plant. He mentioned to Mr. Ford, very interesting but, what if the men stay on station, and the cars move by? (something to that affect)
> What the heck were they thinking at the LeRhone engine plant? Bolt the crankshaft to the firewall?
> Thanks Bob, I'm going to spend the afternoon researching the engine. Curios as I am.
> Just watched a video, can you imagine the imbalance?


I can forgive LeRhone for the oddball stuff because there was nothing before to learn from or copy.

Sorry, but my whole miserable career as car mechanic was filled with "what hell were they thinking?" or smoking? Like having to pull the engine to get to some spark plugs?( AMC 6cyl Pacer) Some bolts on the top of transmissions that were obviously put on before the body was plopped on?(Toyota Tercel 4wd) Crazy silly rubber doughnuts for driveline universal joints that there is no way to tighten the packing nut on the front joint that locates it to the transmission(BMW '69 2002). Mounting the pressure plate to the crankshaft and the throw out brg pushes on the flywheel('75 VW Rabbit). There are a million others but don't get me started .........


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## pdentrem (Mar 3, 2019)

Rotary engines are limited to just over 1000 - 1300 rpm, as the forces on the parts is pretty large. For the time, they were high power to weight engines. To see a few running engines in actually flying machines, go to https://oldrhinebeck.org/


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## Bob Korves (Mar 3, 2019)

Janderso said:


> Just watched a video, can you imagine the imbalance?


They actually run quite smoothly, with all the mass, and remember that the pistons and rods are not reciprocating.  The offset crankshaft makes it all happen.


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## Janderso (Mar 3, 2019)

C-Bag, you have a good point sir.


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## rwm (Mar 3, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> I can forgive LeRhone for the oddball stuff because there was nothing before to learn from or copy.
> 
> Sorry, but my whole miserable career as car mechanic was filled with "what hell were they thinking?" or smoking? Like having to pull the engine to get to some spark plugs?( AMC 6cyl Pacer) Some bolts on the top of transmissions that were obviously put on before the body was plopped on?(Toyota Tercel 4wd) Crazy silly rubber doughnuts for driveline universal joints that there is no way to tighten the packing nut on the front joint that locates it to the transmission(BMW '69 2002). Mounting the pressure plate to the crankshaft and the throw out brg pushes on the flywheel('75 VW Rabbit). There are a million others but don't get me started .........


Fiat X-19. Pull the engine to set the timing....and just to add to the fun it was common for the distributor hold down to come loose....
Robert


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## Superburban (Mar 4, 2019)

Most ceiling fans work similar to the old radial engines. The rotor is connected to the rod from the ceiling, and does not rotate. The housing, and fan blades do the rotation. The light kit, or controller box mounts to the bottom of the rotor, which is how they stand still.


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## Eddyde (Mar 4, 2019)

francist said:


> I see a distinct similarity between the adjustable chrome feet and shutoff handles from radiator globe valves. Notwithstanding the distinct possibility of a lava processor, I wonder if we're looking at a movie prop? And is there a coincidence that part of a label featuring .."Theater..." appears in one of of the other photos?
> -frank


IMHO, It looks too elaborately detailed to be a prop. However, it could be some sort of device for a special effects purpose?


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## mmcmdl (Mar 4, 2019)

projectnut said:


> At that price you should snap it up in a heartbeat. It's less than 1/10 the cost of the first soap wrapping machine model we used to test the skills of potential production line mechanics. The "wrapping" machine was a model of one originally used at Procter & Gamble to wrap bars of soap in a paper package for retail sales. It had all sorts of cams, gears, and levers that had to be perfectly timed for it to cycle a plastic block through the process. The machine flipped the block over several times and reoriented it so the paper could be folded around it. The original model cost in the $3,500.00 range with later models costing nearly $10,000.00. It seemed like a lot of money for testing mechanical skills, but those who passed the test didn't have any problems diagnosing and repairing production machine problems.
> 
> Here's a link to a newer version of the machine we used. I'll bet the cost has risen since the 1990's when we bought our latest one.



I was the last mechanic hired at Unilever to have to go thru the test on the do nothing machine ! We packed bars by the millions .


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## 12bolts (Mar 10, 2019)

Perhaps just a typo?





pdentrem said:


> Rotary engines are limited to just over 1000 - 1300 rpm, as the forces on the parts is pretty large. ..... To see a few running engines in actually flying machines, go to https://oldrhinebeck.org/


Car engines oft run above 10000 and aircraft around 7500-8000

Cheers Phil


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## hermetic (Mar 10, 2019)

the two lines of holes on the lower "flywheel"  could be either for indexing, or setting the speed via a 50 or 60 Hz lamp? still no idea what it is though!


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## pdentrem (Mar 10, 2019)

12bolts said:


> Perhaps just a typo?Car engines oft run above 10000 and aircraft around 7500-8000
> 
> Cheers Phil



Nope not a typo. The whole ROTARY engine spins while the crankshaft is fixed to the firewall and the prop is attached to the engine case. With the huge gyroscopic forces on the engine casing the engines were limited to about 1200-1300 rpm. By the end of WW1 the top rpm had increased to 2000 rpm. This engine design was abandoned as better RADIAL and in-line designs were being built that could produce better power to weight ratios.









						Rotary engine - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




Mazda made the Wankel, which was the opposite to the rotary, the trilob cylinder spins and the engine case is stationary.

Formula 1 engines recently were spinning at 18000 rpm, but unlike our regular production based NASCAR engine for example, they use lots of oil as the clearances are very loose. Street engines may have .002-.003” piston to cylinder wall, the F1 engines are 2-3 times that.


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## C-Bag (Mar 10, 2019)

12bolts said:


> Perhaps just a typo?Car engines oft run above 10000 and aircraft around 7500-8000
> 
> Cheers Phil


???? I've never owned a OEM car with a redline of 10,000rpm, but the highest performance car was MBZ 320CLK and it redlined at 7,500 IIRC.

The aircraft I'm most familiar with were WWII inline and radial engines and very few operated above 3,000rpm, most at 2,500-2,700 rpm. Even with gear reduction. Reason being over a certain rpm the prop tips broke the speed of sound and lost efficiency. Almost all used superchargers too so rpm was tied to boost and would damage the engine if running to high rpm/boost for too long. The Continental and Lycoming engines used in civilian aircraft don't operate above 3,000rpm either IIRC.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 10, 2019)

12bolts said:


> Perhaps just a typo?Car engines oft run above 10000 and aircraft around 7500-8000
> 
> Cheers Phil


It is not a typo, Phil.  That was in the early days of internal combustion engines, designs were simple and crude, and materials were nothing like today.  Even today, with a common Lycoming or Continental engine in small airplanes, the maximum speed is about 2500 to 2700 rpm.  Much of the reason for it is the propeller.  If the engine turns faster than that, the propeller tips will start to go supersonic, which causes huge amounts of drag.  The cure is a geared output shaft (some actually have run the propellor off the camshaft), but that adds complication, cost, weight, and more things that can fail.  The four major attributes of a successful aircraft engine are reliability, reliability, and reliability, followed by light weight.

The average automobile engine today tops out at around 6000-7000 rpm.  To see 10000 rpm you will be mostly looking at motorcycles or race cars, exotic cars, or models.

Maximum rpm of a model T Ford engine from the same era as the rotary engine was 1850 rpm.


			Model T Ford Forum: RPM


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 10, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> This being advertised as a ''Metal Lave'', so obviously the seller has no idea what it is either.  Any ideas?


looks like a strange specialty vertical lathe
possibly a strange planer???


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## tq60 (Mar 12, 2019)

rwm said:


> Fiat X-19. Pull the engine to set the timing....and just to add to the fun it was common for the distributor hold down to come loose....
> Robert


Valve adjustment a pain too...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## C-Bag (Mar 12, 2019)

Ulma Doctor said:


> looks like a strange specialty vertical lathe
> possibly a strange planer???



Could be, but the pics are next to worthless. I've seen time and again on CL when the person is clueless their pics are just as clueless. They don't know what to focus on I think. I think it sat 90deg to some kind of line that went through where "head" is sitting in the pic. Because like has been noted, the cheap roller that looks like one off a roller conveyer, doesn't look like it was meant to be moved back and forth all the time. There are hints of some kind of pulley's on the far end inside. But why it only seems to have three cheap rollers doesn't seem overly steady or sturdy. Wonder if it would make any more sense in person? I'd love to see what the different pieces are made out of.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Mar 12, 2019)

After looking over the pictures again I can see what look to be 3 guide wheels (circled in red) that ride along 3  V-ways (2 are highlighted with green lines)  .  If that is correct then the entire Upper section holding the table would reciprocate sorta like a shaper works.


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## pontiac428 (Mar 12, 2019)

I think it is indeed a vertical lathe.  The hint is the flywheel below it... it could be a flywheel and disc rotor surfacing lathe.  Put work on the table like loading an EP record into a turntable, put a tool in a fixture like a shaper, and feed.  Maybe...


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## eugene13 (Mar 12, 2019)

Maybe it's a high precision meat slicer, just missing some parts.


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## pontiac428 (Mar 12, 2019)

Yeah! It's a spiral ham cutter!

(from mobile)


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## bpimm (Mar 13, 2019)

rwm said:


> Fiat X-19. Pull the engine to set the timing....and just to add to the fun it was common for the distributor hold down to come loose....
> Robert


No need to pull the engine just use the right wrench, Later models had a removable panel in the spare tire area to access the distrubutor, made it a lot easier.


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## bpimm (Mar 13, 2019)

tq60 said:


> Valve adjustment a pain too...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Not with the right tool, it's no worse than any other shim type valve adjustment. even without the tool you can just measure all the gaps, pull the cam box off, change the shims, and bolt the cam box back on with a new gasket.

Just finished another batch of the shim tools this morning.


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## C-Bag (Mar 13, 2019)

bpimm said:


> Not with the right tool, it's no worse than any other shim type valve adjustment. even without the tool you can just measure all the gaps, pull the cam box off, change the shims, and bolt the cam box back on with a new gasket.
> 
> Just finished another batch of the shim tools this morning.
> View attachment 290357


No worse than any other shim setup? Maybe, but sorry, it's just a bad design and you can have that tool and still be screwed. If it's like the silly VW setup you need the goofy pliers to fish the shims out and a big box of various shims. Just like I avoid all cars with rubber bands(timing belt time bombs) I also avoid cars with valve shims.


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## Nick Hacking (Mar 18, 2019)

higgite said:


> At last! My heretofore futile search for a turbo encabulator is finally over!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that Stanley Unwin got there first.









						Stanley Unwin (comedian) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				









Kind wishes,

Nick


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## higgite (Mar 18, 2019)

Nick Hacking said:


> I think that Stanley Unwin got there first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gibberish goes all the way back to the first standup comedic Neanderthal who got his tongue wrapped around his eye tooth and couldn't see a word he was saying , but genuine turbo encabulators are rare on craigslist. Rare indeed. 

Tom


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## royesses (Mar 18, 2019)

rwm said:


> Fiat X-19. Pull the engine to set the timing....and just to add to the fun it was common for the distributor hold down to come loose....
> Robert


I had an X-19. Timing belt broke about 20,000 miles early. I pulled the head and gave it a valve job with new unbent valves and a tune up. Setting the timing didn't require removing the engine. Setting the valves required measuring the clearance and recording it then pull and measure the shims and getting the proper thickness shims from Fiat. It is a pain in the bucket seat. Installed points and set timing by removing the seat and removing an access panel behind the passenger seat. Next week on Sunday night the throwout bearing went for a spin down the street. Had to pull the suspension and transaxle that night put in a new clutch and pressure plate along with the missing bearing. That took 2 hours of hustle. It was a fun little car to drive but a constant headache to maintain.The tires never met a nail that they didn't like either. I was much younger back then.

Roy


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## Superburban (Mar 19, 2019)

$200 for the starter, and another $800 for the labor to tear apart the engine to replace it.  (Numbers pulled out of air, I have no experience, just think it is a dumb place to put a starter. Yes, under the intake on a V6 or 8.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Mar 19, 2019)

Superburban said:


> $200 for the starter, and another $800 for the labor to tear apart the engine to replace it.  (Numbers pulled out of air, I have no experience, just think it is a dumb place to put a starter. Yes, under the intake on a V6 or 8.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WOW!!! Ive seen alot of crazy $h!+ done to machines for alot of different reasons especially those coming out of the local backyard mechanic garage but That has got to be just about the most Ridiculous mass produced design i have ever seen!  I just hope pulling the top half isnt a difficult job!


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## Dabbler (Mar 19, 2019)

So, Jim, I think you have part of a gantry grinder.  This one seems to be set up for OD on large pipe. Possibly for chamfering large oil pipe.   Just my guess, but chamfering mills used to look much like that.  Not worth a wooden nickle without the head.


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## vtcnc (Mar 19, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> So, Jim, I think you have part of a gantry grinder. This one seems to be set up for OD on large pipe. Possibly for chamfering large oil pipe. Just my guess, but chamfering mills used to look much like that. Not worth a wooden nickle without the head.



But it looks like the box is made of plywood?! Would that be able to handle those kinds of stresses?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dabbler (Mar 19, 2019)

The plywood is definitely a table to rest it on.  

I withdraw my 'pipe' comment...  the dovetail head seems to be cable driven from the right side of the photo, not something I've seen in any of these machines.  

The rounded rollers on the lower part reminded me of the gantry mills used for chamfering pipe in the 60s. so I'm totally stumped!


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## hman (Mar 20, 2019)

Durn!  The posting has expired.  

If it'd still been available, I'd have said that the BEST way to figger it out woulda been to just off and buy the durn thang. 

Maybe you'll get lucky, and they'll re-post ...


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