# Why are damp/wet welding electrodes impossible to weld with?



## Uglydog

Lately we've had a lot of rain in MN, humidity is up (please no comments about what the humidity does to my hair).
I've been doing a lot more arc/stick/SMAW than usual. Thus, have a lot of rod around (6010/6011/7018). 
Yes, I've got a lot of spatter and porosity.
I bought a used rod oven, cheaper than I could put a light bulb in an old dorm refrigerator.

My Question is: why does a little bit of moisture cause such a huge problem?

A casual search of the internet produced many suggestions for drying and keeping rods dry. But, no explanation for the reason it is impossible to get a decent weld out of damp/wet rods.

Is this some sort of inorganic chemistry puzzle?
Should you choose to respond, please make any reference to the periodic table comprehensible.


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## brasssmanget

I would guess the moisture interferes with the chemicals used in coating the rods, or makes them less functional. Also, the coating becomes loose (at least mine do if too moist) and flakes or chips easily. Again, I'm guess this would effect the ability to get a good weld. 

Now we'll wait for a real welder to chime in - I may be all wet..........


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## benmychree

The problem with damp rod is that it causes hydrogen embrittlement of the weld, causing cracking; the 7018 rod is especially important to keep dry.  In shops doing sensitive welding jobs, only enough rod to "burn" is doled out to weldors so it can be used up before it can take up moisture.  A light bulb in a refrigerator is not hot enough to dry out rod.


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## tripletap3

Not a "real welder" and I can't spell  "comprehensible" but this has always been my understanding. First what does the coating do?  It burns and creates a carbon dioxide (mostly used on steel stick electrodes) gas shield or bubble that excludes oxygen, nitrogen and water vapor to protect the arc and the molten metal at the electrode tip. If the rod is wet it produces water vapor in the shielding gas thus dispersing the arc and imediately coroding the molten metal.


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## Uglydog

benmychree said:


> The problem with damp rod is that it causes hydrogen embrittlement of the weld, causing cracking; the 7018 rod is especially important to keep dry.  In shops doing sensitive welding jobs, only enough rod to "burn" is doled out to weldors so it can be used up before it can take up moisture.  A light bulb in a refrigerator is not hot enough to dry out rod.



"hydrogen embrittlement"

I believe you with out question.
But, what does "hydrogen embrittlement" mean?
Why is 7018 more susceptible than 6010?
Sounds like something my Welding Instructor would have said.

Thank you for the prompt response. 
But, why does this happen?


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## Uglydog

.....


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## PlasmaOnTheBrain

Hydrogen Embrittlement is more of an issue with higher alloy and strength steels like HY 80 and 120 and the like... It's also known as delay cracking, because it occurs well after the weld is completed and in service. Another name for it is under bead cracking because it tends to happen directly under the weld in the base metal, hidden from visual inspection. The underlying effects are still being debated by people well above our collective pay scales, but it has to do with the hydrogen moving around after the weld and causing general chaos on an atomic scale.
As to why damp electrodes cause problems like spatter it has to do with what was mentioned above, generation of more gases than the flux can handle. 
the 70 series rods use a flux that is similar to cement, roughly speaking, and its not very tolerant. The slag does most of the shielding work with the 70 series. 
60 series rods, especially 6010/11, use a cellulose coating almost like a type of paper or cardboard and actually need a moisture content to burn right, somewhere around 10% by weight(?). Shielding for the molten metal comes more from the gas generated than the slag, which is too thin and fluid to keep the atmosphere away. I've seen (and bought a pack for fun) of rods that were made for cutting and chamfering which turned out to be 6010 rods that had around 30-50% moisture in the flux, much more forceful arc that would tear through plates instead of welding them. Cutting torch did a much better job but if you were in a pinch it might work....


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## Ulma Doctor

DON'T USE THIS METHOD FOR CERTIFIED WORK!!!!!!

you can bring back rods that are dampened by putting them into a 350*F oven for an hour or so- if the rods aren't soaking wet.
do not attempt with 7018, it is a low hydrogen rod you would be defeating the purpose, unless you are in a real pinch ...

a method i learned as a youngster was to fire up the welder and short circuit a damp rod for 20 seconds or so or until you see the moisture evaporate or smell burning.
 i did some hack welding on trailer ramps with some dampened 6011 this way, the trailer ramps are still together 20 years later.


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## benmychree

So, who welds with anything but MIG anyway? I have not used stick rod for years! (and), as there is no flux on mig wire to cause the problem by taking up moisture --- I realize that I am perhaps oversymplifing this, but,  ------ I rest my case.


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## Codered741

The only welder that I have, besides oxy/act, is a stick welder.  Easy, cheap, no consumables besides rods.  KISS. And it just works. 

-Cody


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## sniggler

On structural steel jobs which run a combination of flux-core and stick primarily Low Hydrogen 7018, but 8018, 9018, and 11018 as well i have seen inspectors go though the job site and break the flux off electrodes left out so they won't be put into service. You can flip out and go off on the inspector but it will ruin the job going forward. 

The issue as i understand it and is as stated before is hydrogen embrittlement,under bead cracking.

So its complicated but instead of turning into steam the water in the coating of the rod releases the lone hydrogen demons not being able to get out because they are now trapped under the weld and they hate being alone they go around breaking stuff. 

This problem is in the root of the weld which is the foundation and special care must always be taken with the root pass. Best advise is learn how to weld hot and only use dry rod.

We often use 7018 mr (moisture resistant) which just means it can be out of the oven a little longer before being used. From a back yard sense as you weld most of the moister is cooked off and moist rod can weld a bit rough but still make serviceable welds.    

"The mechanism starts with lone hydrogen atoms diffusing through the metal. At high temperatures, the elevated solubility of hydrogen allows hydrogen to diffuse into the metal (or the hydrogen can diffuse in at a low temperature, assisted by a concentration gradient). When these hydrogen atoms re-combine in minuscule voids of the metal matrix to form hydrogen molecules, they create pressure from inside the cavity they are in. This pressure can increase to levels where the metal has reduced ductility and tensile strength up to the point where it cracks open (_hydrogen induced cracking, or HIC). High-strength and low-alloy steels_

Hydrogen embrittlement can occur during various manufacturing operations or operational use - anywhere that the metal comes into contact with atomic or molecular hydrogen. Processes that can lead to this include cathodic protection, phosphating, pickling, and electroplating. A special case is arc welding, in which the hydrogen is released from moisture (for example in the coating of the welding electrodes; to minimize this, special low-hydrogen electrodes are used for welding high-strength steels)." wickapedia


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## Uglydog

Franz© said:


> "but the real problem comes from the water changing state to steam just above the surface of the puddle and blowing the deposit everyplace but where you want it.



That makes sense!

- - - Updated - - -



sniggler said:


> On structural steel jobs which run a combination of flux-core and stick primarily Low Hydrogen 7018, but 8018, 9018, and 11018 as well i have seen inspectors go though the job site and break the flux off electrodes left out so they won't be put into service. You can flip out and go off on the inspector but it will ruin the job going forward.
> 
> The issue as i understand it and is as stated before is hydrogen embrittlement,under bead cracking.
> 
> So its complicated but instead of turning into steam the water in the coating of the rod releases the lone hydrogen demons not being able to get out because they are now trapped under the weld and they hate being alone they go around breaking stuff.
> 
> This problem is in the root of the weld which is the foundation and special care must always be taken with the root pass. Best advise is learn how to weld hot and only use dry rod.
> 
> We often use 7018 mr (moisture resistant) which just means it can be out of the oven a little longer before being used. From a back yard sense as you weld most of the moister is cooked off and moist rod can weld a bit rough but still make serviceable welds.
> 
> "The mechanism starts with lone hydrogen atoms diffusing through the metal. At high temperatures, the elevated solubility of hydrogen allows hydrogen to diffuse into the metal (or the hydrogen can diffuse in at a low temperature, assisted by a concentration gradient). When these hydrogen atoms re-combine in minuscule voids of the metal matrix to form hydrogen molecules, they create pressure from inside the cavity they are in. This pressure can increase to levels where the metal has reduced ductility and tensile strength up to the point where it cracks open (_hydrogen induced cracking, or HIC). High-strength and low-alloy steels_
> 
> Hydrogen embrittlement can occur during various manufacturing operations or operational use - anywhere that the metal comes into contact with atomic or molecular hydrogen. Processes that can lead to this include cathodic protection, phosphating, pickling, and electroplating. A special case is arc welding, in which the hydrogen is released from moisture (for example in the coating of the welding electrodes; to minimize this, special low-hydrogen electrodes are used for welding high-strength steels)." wickapedia



This is all beginning to make sense!


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## itsme_Bernie

Sponge sponge sponge..   Hope this is all going in my head


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## fastback

I have seen some weldor's drying rods with a torch.  Certainly not very professional, but I guess it will get you through a backyard welding job.  I assume you are welding with AC/DC, since 6010 is a DC only rod.   7016 is also a low hydrogen rod, but I don't think it is used as much as 7018.  I'm not sure but 7016 may be a DC only rod.  I also tend to use the 7014 series rod for general purpose work and 7018 on jobs that require some impact resistance.  

I don't do a lot of welding these days and do not have a drier.  I keep my rods in 2 inch pvc pipe that I have cut to size and capped each end.  I only take the amount I need ( a few rods at a time).  My stick welder is an old Lincoln Idealarc 300 amps in AC and 250 in DC, also have a mig for the smaller jobs.


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## sniggler

The 7016 is a Lo-Hydrogen rod we have used it here for welding hot dipped galvanized plates which are embedded in precast concrete for parking structures. The embeds are stainless on the decks and hot dipped galvanized on the walls you put a slug in between the embeds and make the vertical weld on either side.

7016 is the only rod I know of for code welding through galvanized coating without grinding first. It acts like 7018 with more bite, more sparks and less of a hard shell coating.

Keeping wire dry in or fresh out of a new sealed can is the way to go, for the small shop buying the ten pound cans is probably better. Inspectors are worried about what they can't see that is micro cracks in the base metal at the root of the weld (hydrogen embrittlement) from wet or damp rod welding wet steel ect...  

You don't have to be on a structural welding job to institute simple best practices for welding these include, using dry rod, cleaning the joint to bright metal before welding, and preheating before welding basically 150 deg f for steel under 1 inch. 

The preheat is to heat up around the weld zone so you will have more uniform cooling of a wider area after welding this reduces the stress on the weld itself as the area cools. As you get into welding thicker steels preheat and post heat become critical. Even if its just some 1/2 inch thick material you can notice that it just welds better when you warm it up with a torch.

Bob


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## Keith Foor

OK, the Hydrogen enbrittlement is right but the cause I think got missed.  An electric arc is hot... 10K degree hot.  Steam  is not an issue at this temperature.  What actually happens is the moisture gets into the arc and the heat actually breaks the molecular bond of the hydrogen and oxygen.  Now there is only a very small amount of vapor so it's not going to turn into a big roaring flame but it burns.  It gives off other chemicals when mixed with the gasses created by the flux and part of the hydrogen enters the molten steel.  All the while the free oxygen begins to burn the steel.  Think cutting torch.  And you can always tell a good cutting torch operator, he's the one that maintains the cut when the heating gas is removed.  Yes, you CAN continue to oxidize the steel and continue a cut with no heating gas.  Best I have ever done is about 4 inches.  So since torch cutting is high speed oxidation, any oxygen (what the shielding gasses are trying to displace) are being created below the gas dome, it tends to screw up the weld a lot.  7018 rod is the one that is the MOST prone of all standard rods to draw moisture.  I have heard that a welder on inspected welds will only remove a few rods from the rod oven at a time to keep them from cooling and drawing moisture from the atmosphere.  I can't say it's a fact but I have heard it multiple places from multiple weldor's.  (a welder is a machine, a weldor runs it and creates welds  old school term).  Of course with any sort of gas or other non desirable contaminate in the weld creates porosity, popping, inclusions and other issues with the weld.  

Go find a largish military ammo canister... not a 50 BMG can, something for RPG's or bazooka rounds.  They are about 15X15X30 and open on the end.  Install a  100 watt (if you can find if not 2 60's) in the bottom and affix a plate that is well supported.  Store your rods in the can in metal tubes and loosen the top and power up the lights a few hours before welding.  Another thing that works well is a microwave oven that don't heat.  Rip out the crap, put in a ceramic light socket and a 100 watt bulb and keep them dry and hot that way.  I have saved some rods that were in bad shape doing that.


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## Keith Foor

OH, and for the sake of knowledge.  In addition to 7018's there are 8018 9018 10018 and 11018 rods. 
I won a bet using 11018's once.  A company I worked for had these big steam tables that had a rubber bladder pad in them. 
The bladder was held down with 96 2 inch 1/4-20 bolts and nutted on the bottom.  To save time they would simply chisel the heads off the bolts as opposed to unscrewing them  but someone bought grade 8 bolts.   About 10K of them so they were used.  New chisels were made up with a 2 foot length of drill steel welded on to extend them.  They broke at the weld constantly due to the forces needed to cut the heads off the fasteners and the poor welds being done.  I told them I could get it done, and have the weld hold and was laughed at.  After all I was the computer guy what could I know about welding.  So I bet the shop guys lunch for a week that I could get it done.  I beveled them, welded them with 11018 and then tempered the welds with a torch and open air cool down.  The shop supervisor was ****** when he found me in his shop welding.  But it was nothing compared the how mad the other guys were when the chisel held for a week.  Before they would go through 3 to do one press pad.  The one shop guy got so mad he put the chisel in a big press and bent it in two trying to get the weld to fail.... if finally broke 4 inches from my weld.  So I welded up 4 more sets and ate cheap for a week.  And the last time I talked to anyone up there, they still were using those chisels I welded up 5 years later.


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## Grumpy Gator

_We scrounged an old fridge and took the door light switch out so it would stay on and stashed all our welding rod in that. Here in Florida the humidity is always high so this has helped a lot._
_*********Just Saying************Gator**************************************************_


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## benmychree

Keith Foor said:


> OH, and for the sake of knowledge.  In addition to 7018's there are 8018 9018 10018 and 11018 rods.
> I won a bet using 11018's once.  A company I worked for had these big steam tables that had a rubber bladder pad in them.
> The bladder was held down with 96 2 inch 1/4-20 bolts and nutted on the bottom.  To save time they would simply chisel the heads off the bolts as opposed to unscrewing them  but someone bought grade 8 bolts.   About 10K of them so they were used.  New chisels were made up with a 2 foot length of drill steel welded on to extend them.  They broke at the weld constantly due to the forces needed to cut the heads off the fasteners and the poor welds being done.  I told them I could get it done, and have the weld hold and was laughed at.  After all I was the computer guy what could I know about welding.  So I bet the shop guys lunch for a week that I could get it done.  I beveled them, welded them with 11018 and then tempered the welds with a torch and open air cool down.  The shop supervisor was ****** when he found me in his shop welding.  But it was nothing compared the how mad the other guys were when the chisel held for a week.  Before they would go through 3 to do one press pad.  The one shop guy got so mad he put the chisel in a big press and bent it in two trying to get the weld to fail.... if finally broke 4 inches from my weld.  So I welded up 4 more sets and ate cheap for a week.  And the last time I talked to anyone up there, they still were using those chisels I welded up 5 years later.


I think if one looked up these procedures per the AmericanWelding Society , one would find that an old fridge and a light bulb do not cut it, at least for the high strength, low hydrogen rods; it takes a holding oven to keep rod dry for use, where the rod is literally too hot to handle, and after sitting out for a relatively short amount of time, requires baking out at an even higher temperature and back to the holding oven to avoid brittle welds.


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## Grumpy Gator

_Well not being a professional welding shop I don't recall that we ever had any of those high strength , low hdrogen rods._
_ Our low tech low cost method worked fine for what we did._
_ The poor folk got to do it the poor way._
_**************Just Saying********************G********************************_


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## RJSakowski

Another reason to keep your rod dry: I "inherited" about fifty lbs. of various rods from my ex wife's blacksmith shop.  It had been stored in the shop for more than a decade.  I've got lots of bare rod now.


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## benmychree

This whole thread is about the low hydrogen types of  welding rod such as 7018, and if one is welding together high carbon or alloy steels and using one of these low hydrogen types of electrodes, one must take appropriate measures to ensure that the rods are kept moisture free or weld failure will be the result; if one is welding stuff together with a "buzz box" in the garage or backyard this is not an issue to fret about, as they will not run low hydrogen rod anyway ----- I am talking about alternating current machines.


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## benmychree

RJSakowski said:


> Another reason to keep your rod dry: I "inherited" about fifty lbs. of various rods from my ex wife's blacksmith shop.  It had been stored in the shop for more than a decade.  I've got lots of bare rod now.


I assume that you have tried to weld with bare rod ------!   I have tried it and it is nigh impossible.  Way back in the early days, they did weld with bare rod, but as I understand it they dipped them in the lime sludge of the acetylene generator, dried them,and in essence, made their own coated rods.


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## RJSakowski

benmychree said:


> I assume that you have tried to weld with bare rod ------!   I have tried it and it is nigh impossible.  Way back in the early days, they did weld with bare rod, but as I understand it they dipped them in the lime sludge of the acetylene generator, dried them,and in essence, made their own coated rods.


I seem to remember reading about bare rod welding.  Yes, I've tried it and I don't like it.  I suppose I could make a tube to fit around the rod and run CO2 down it.  Or I could just buy new rod and my wife can use the old rods for plant stakes.


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## benmychree

That sounds like a good plan.


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## Ulma Doctor

When i was learning stick in Ironworker apprentiship, my instructor made all the students knock the flux off a 5/32" 7018 rod and run it to a stub, 
Just so us youngsters would get a feel for how the old timers did it!
I can say that it was one of the most humbling experiences...


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## benmychree

Doesn't sound like much fun!  Trying to run 7018 with an A.C. machine isn't much fun either!


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## Ulma Doctor

the 7018AC rod welds like a dream with a lincoln tombstone, you get minimal arc blow
i still have the welder and some 6011,6013,and 7018 stashed away in a huge 40mm ammo can


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## benmychree

But, I assume that both of us use nothing but MIG these days ------


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## Ulma Doctor

correct,
90% mig -10% tig


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## benmychree

I need to get a TIG outfit, have not had the capability since I sold my business; I can go there and do it, but not always available.  BTW, just rebuilt a 9" SB lathe circa 1928, made a new spindle, old one badly worn, and rescraped orig bearings to fit new spindle; it will be handy for small parts that are not so handy on the 19" Regal Leblond.


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## savarin

Not trying to be awkward here but if moisture causes hydrogen embrittlement how does underwater welding work?
Just curious.


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## Ulma Doctor

i can't exactly say, 
but i would have to think that the shielding gas pressure created by the burning rod must be greater than the surrounding water pressure.
good question though...


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## Keith Foor

benmychree said:


> I need to get a TIG outfit, have not had the capability since I sold my business;



You can dry line TIG with about ant stick power source even a tombstone with the DC option.  Current control is about non existent and you have to scratch start, but it's possible.  Another option is a big car alternator with a feedback loop or a controller board.  You just mount the alternator to a 8 or 10 HP gas engine and do some mods.  The plans are all over the web and there are even some slick electronic control boards if you want to go further than just a rheostat to feed the output of the alternator back to the field input.  There are all sorts of ways to get a workable solution if you lack the funds for welding equipment.  All the water cooled, high current square wave stuff is great if you are welding for a living.  I have been running a 1980's Airco Heliwelder 300 that has very little in options, and it's a transformer unit so it's heavy and only has 60 Hz sine wave AC and DC output but for the stuff I do it's fine.  Te only real complaint I have with it is the open circuit voltage on AC is a bit low causing it to want to burn through really thin aluminum like pop can side wall thin.  Other than that is does a fine job and it was reasonable price wise.


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## W6PUG

I read this thread  before posting mine about rod storage .... I am more concerned about preventing moisture absorption rather than dealing with wet rod, and the dorm refrig and lightbulb is similar to what we used to do ... just hoping there is something better out there short of an oven.
OBTW, for "BE" - there are many times when using stick is a lot easier than MIG - wind disrupts gas shield if you are outside and cannot block wind from weld; sometimes position is harder with MIG than stick (I used to build gooseneck trailers and spent a lot of time doing a pirouette on my head with spatter coming down on me  ... there are many times stick is just plain the only gig, so it has its place. I have MIG, TIG and stick and they all get their fair share of time .... Take care Guys - ddj


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## juiceclone

Here in Florida moisture is always.  I got into the habit of shorting the rod for a few seconds before every weld.  I have come to believe the welds  go better whether the rod seemed damp or just plain old n crappy.  The coated aluminum rods are useless after any exposure however.


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## gjmontll

I weld only very small tasks a few times a year, so I remain a rather poor welder. My machine is the HF 80 Amp inverter stick welder and I've never used any other stick welder so I don't have anything for comparison. I've always found it very difficult to get the arc started when the rod is cold. This is with both a freshly opened box of rods, or one that has been opened, but kept closed and on the shelf for many months. So when I did a little job (2 rods) last week, I toasted the rod tip with a propane torch for 20 - 30 seconds, until the flux started to look "toasted" a bit. This really seemed to get the rod primed to start easily. This was with Lincoln E6013 1/16" rods at about 70 A DC+. 
I know some rods are very sensitive to moisture and are stored in warm ovens. I don't think 6013s need that treatement, do they? And here in inland San Diego County, we are rarely a humid environment. Why is my rod toasting working? Any downside to it? And is it: the hotter, the better?


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## FOMOGO

One of the advantages of living in a dry climate is not having to take extraordinary measures to keep rod dry. I run pretty much just DC and mostly 7014 that just sits in it's original open can with no ill affects. Occasionally use some high nickel rod for work on cast and it seems to work fine after years sitting on the shelf. Most shop work is MIG, but stick definitely has it's place. If you want really good penetration It's hard to beat, and I use it almost exclusively on heavy equipment and large structural steel members. I'm very fond of my old gas powered Miller Big 40 for jobs around the ranch. Mike


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