# Thinking Of Getting A Facemill For My Fr45 Clone



## sanddan (May 15, 2015)

My mill came with a 4 insert 2" face mill that I have been using and would like to get a better quality version. I will get a 45 deg style with a built in R8 mount, the question I have is what size would be a good match for my size mill. I like the looks of the Glacern face mills and I have had good luck with my other Glacern products, would the 2.5" or 3" be the best size?


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## Cobra (May 15, 2015)

I would think you would be fine with the 3 inch. That is what I use on my Grizzly 0755. 
Did your unit come with a spec sheet?  For mine, they speced 3 inch max.


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## Bray D (May 15, 2015)

I have 5 insert 3 inch face mill on my PM 932. I haven't used it a whole lot, but it seems to handle it fine. I wanted something to face larger areas quickly, and the 3" face mill does the job far better than the 3/4" end mill I was previously using. 

My machine is spec'd for 3" max as well.


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## jbolt (May 15, 2015)

I have both 4" and 2-1/2" Glacern 45 deg face mills I use on my PM932. I rutienly take 0.100" passes with mo problems.


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## coolidge (May 15, 2015)

I opted for the 2.5 inch Glacern 45 degree. Why? Because it takes 5 inserts vs 6 for the 3" hence I get two full sets out of a 10 insert box for the 2.5 inch! Also one thing to remember, the larger the face mill the more accurately you will need your head trammed. If you have to make multiple passes any error will be magnified the larger the face mill you use.


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## sanddan (May 15, 2015)

jbolt said:


> I have both 4" and 2-1/2" Glacern 45 deg face mills I use on my PM932. I rutienly take 0.100" passes with mo problems.


 That's great, my junk face mill complains if I take more than .020" cut in steel.


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## sanddan (May 15, 2015)

coolidge said:


> I opted for the 2.5 inch Glacern 45 degree. Why? Because it takes 5 inserts vs 6 for the 3" hence I get two full sets out of a 10 insert box for the 2.5 inch! Also one thing to remember, the larger the face mill the more accurately you will need your head trammed. If you have to make multiple passes any error will be magnified the larger the face mill you use.



Unless I can find a used one I will get the 2.5" Glacern. That's a good point on the number of inserts. I'll check ebay for a while in case something turns up.


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## Bray D (May 15, 2015)

coolidge said:


> I opted for the 2.5 inch Glacern 45 degree. Why? Because it takes 5 inserts vs 6 for the 3" hence I get two full sets out of a 10 insert box for the 2.5 inch! Also one thing to remember, the larger the face mill the more accurately you will need your head trammed. If you have to make multiple passes any error will be magnified the larger the face mill you use.



My Shars 3" has 5 inserts as well. Good point regarding the necessity to have a well trammed head. Speaking of which, I need to check mine again. I'm not sure if you can see in the pic, but I'm not getting getting tool marks in both directions with my face mill.


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## coolidge (May 15, 2015)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Bray D (May 15, 2015)

The Glacerns are indeed a work of art. What inserts are you using Coolidge? I opt'd for some cheap SEAN's to get me going, but your finish is far superior.

Side note: Nice Buildpro! I splurged on one last year and it was one of the best investments I've made. There's much to be said about a solid, accurate work surface. I absolutely love mine.


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## coolidge (May 15, 2015)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Bray D (May 15, 2015)

Nice! I have a lot to learn when it comes to machining (these forums have been a godsend), but I've been into fabrication for quite some time. My BuildPro changed the game for me. I can't say enough about them. Definitely a must-have for the serious fabricator.




Regarding the inserts, I'll have to read up on the characteristics of the ones you're running. I only have the SEAN's right now, but having a dedicated set for steel and alum respectively would be beneficial.


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## coolidge (May 15, 2015)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## coolidge (May 15, 2015)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Bray D (May 16, 2015)

Haha, size is relative. I did opt for the 4x4 (slightly smaller than that), but I've had to get creative for larger projects. Someday I'll have a space large enough to house a larger table. In the meantime, I'll take advantage of the modular capabilities to make the table the size I need for the job.




My shop is heated in the winter, but I battle condensation in the summer. I unbolted all of my plates and applied a light coat of cosmoline type protectant to the underside. I wipe the top down with WD-40 every other day or so. I'm in the shop daily and I like to keep a clean workspace, so it's not much of a hassle to wipe it down every now and then. That being said, I've had light surface rust on occasion that I've had to remedy with some scotch bite. Nothing that has raised my concern with the accuracy of the work surface though.


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## Bray D (May 16, 2015)

coolidge said:


> ...the number of insert grades is maddening.



That's an understatement. I've been getting by, but I feel like it would require a graduate level independent study to truly understand all of the various inserts available and their ideal applications.


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## tmarks11 (May 16, 2015)

coolidge said:


> Oh you got the big 4x4 build pro, I should send tmarks a link just to get him worked up.



Curses on both of you.

Now I am going out in the garage to TIG something on my Northern Tool $130 "Welding" table.


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## John Hasler (May 16, 2015)

tmarks11 said:


> Curses on both of you.
> 
> Now I am going out in the garage to TIG something on my Northern Tool $130 "Welding" table.


Hey.  You've got a commercial welding table.  I've got a thing I kludged up out of scrap T-posts.


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## coolidge (May 16, 2015)

Bray D said:


> Haha, size is relative. I did opt for the 4x4 (slightly smaller than that), but I've had to get creative for larger projects. Someday I'll have a space large enough to house a larger table. In the meantime, I'll take advantage of the modular capabilities to make the table the size I need for the job.
> 
> My shop is heated in the winter, but I battle condensation in the summer. I unbolted all of my plates and applied a light coat of cosmoline type protectant to the underside. I wipe the top down with WD-40 every other day or so. I'm in the shop daily and I like to keep a clean workspace, so it's not much of a hassle to wipe it down every now and then. That being said, I've had light surface rust on occasion that I've had to remedy with some scotch bite. Nothing that has raised my concern with the accuracy of the work surface though.



That's an excellent point about the modular feature of the Buildpro table, you can reconfigure the table plates to accommodate various sized projects even larger than your table. One thing though, I'm putting the Buildpro on some Footmaster ratcheting casters first chance I get.

Oh Illinois yeah humid. I live in a rain forest so there you go. I have some Bostik Glidecoat I had purchased for some wood working machine tables. The label says, prevents rust while repeling dust, dirt, and moisture, table and tool surface sealant, dramatically reduces sliding friction, better than wax. I have tried a number of sealants on my machines and accessories, the problem with all of them is chips stick to the stuff making clean up a pain. Even Boeshield is a pain in this regard. This Bostik Glidecoat however leaves a dry, reduced friction surface. Chips should not stick. I'm going to start with my mill, clean off the Boeshield and give Glidecoat a try and see how it holds up. It worked quite well on my table saw and band saw cast iron tables.

http://www.amazon.com/Bostik-GlideCote-formerly-TopCote-10-75/dp/B00DAN8P2O


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## coolidge (May 16, 2015)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Bray D (May 17, 2015)

11 bucks a bottle is pretty steep, but if it works as well as they advertise, it would be worth every penny. 

I put casters on my table this spring ($$$$$$) but it's awesome being able to quickly scoot it out of the way if I need the extra space. My entire shop is only 12 x 20, so I frequently need the extra space, haha. 

I know this is all friendly banter, but let's all remember that it's not the tool that defines the quality of work - it's the craftsman. I enjoy my mill and fixture table, but it wasn't all that long ago that I was doing my layouts with masking tape on a concrete floor, notching tube with cutoff wheels, and welding everything together with an old AC stick welder. Primitive tooling coupled with creative methods can yield excellent results. 

All work surfaces have their place. I'm sure I could find a use for that Northern table in addition to my 4x4 BuilPro.


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## sanddan (May 18, 2015)

Well I ended up scoring a Glacern 3" face mill on ebay. I'll post a picture when it gets here.


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## sanddan (May 21, 2015)

Fast shipping from ebay, I got my Glacern 3" face mill today and gave it a test drive. It came with one set of inserts installed, no idea what kind as there weren't any markings. I made a light pass on some steel (.010"), no noise or drama during the cut. I next tried a .030" cut and you could tell the inserts were dull by the finish. I rotated all of the inserts to get a fresh cutting edge and retried a .030" cut. Very smooth and the finish was very nice. I think it's a great buy for $113 shipped to my door.


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## Bray D (May 22, 2015)

Pics man, pics!


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## sanddan (May 22, 2015)

Ok, here are the pics.








The plate on the left was machined with the new (to me) Glacern using fresh cutting edges on the inserts, taking a .030" cut. The plate on the right was machined with the face mill that came with my mill taking a .010" cut. A little hard to tell in the pic but the left has a  very smooth surface whereas with the right one you can feel the grooves with your finger nail. I have inserts on the way for steel and aluminum that I will try out when they get here, this test cut was on HRS using mystery inserts that came with the facemill.


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## Bray D (May 24, 2015)

Nice! Finish looks pretty good. I plan to do some facing tomorrow. I may throw up a few pics of the finish I'm getting with my 3" 5 insert Shars.


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## Bray D (May 26, 2015)

As promised, here are a few pics from yesterday. I had planned to make some soft jaws for a project I'm working on, but only had time to start cleaning up the stock. I'm getting a mirror finish, but I can still feel the machine marks. It's sufficient for now, but I may play with different inserts in the future. These were just some cheapo's to get me started.


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## tmarks11 (Jun 15, 2015)

coolidge said:


> Tmarks here's the Northern Tool welding table vs the Buildpro just in case you wanted to compare them side by side. (Coolidge takes off running and ducking)



No, my Northern Tool table isn't even "that nice". They don't sell this model anymore.  And it is even less functional than its picture would make you think.



I pulled this thread up again because Coolidge keep taunting me with his table. 

Miller has a special right now, buy a Welder, get $200 rebate.  Buy $400 in accessories, get another $200 rebate.  Which makes the Miller table (which Coolidge hates) a cheap add-on ($572-$200=$372).  And this deal includes their cheap spool gun when you buy a Millermatic 211, so it is a good time to buy, since I have been waiting for awhile on that MIG.  I don't really need anything else right now in accessories to maximize that rebate.

I wanted to take another look at what Build Pro table Coolidge has, and what the difference in prices were, and see if I would hate myself for not spending another $730 to get the Build Pro table instead of the Miller table.


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## coolidge (Jun 15, 2015)

tmarks11 said:


> Which makes the Miller table (which Coolidge hates) a cheap add-on ($572-$200=$372).



Dude if you spend even $49 on that warped-o-matic Miller table I will be forced to mock you. Seriously I was in my LWS store just hours ago picking up a bottle for Argon for my new TIG welder and I again mocked the counter guy for having that lame ass Miller welding table on display. The Buildpro may be out of your price range okay, but I think you will kick yourself for wasting even $372 on the Miller table.

As for the Millermatic here's some news. The LWS counter guy was asking about my Lincoln PowerMIG 210MP and he says this Lincoln is putting a serious beating on the Millermatic. He said the Lincoln is outselling the Millermatic 10 to 1 (they sell both Miller and Lincoln) and that Miller is so discombobulated they are considering making a cheaper version of the Millermatic to compete.


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## tmarks11 (Jun 15, 2015)

But then I would have to buy a rattle can of blue paint...

Thing is that I don't need a multiprocess welder, since I have a Dynasty 200DX TIG.   And if I did get a multiprocess, I would want one with AC TIG capability (which the 210MP doesn't have).  I think I am going to keep the dynasty for TIG.

Lincoln 210MP is their answer to Miller's Multimatic 200... unfortunately for Miller, it is essentially the same beast for $700 less.

I will have to go take a look at the 210MP... I just naturally turn to Miller when I think welding, even though one of the guys at word was talking about the 210MP, I hadn't really even thought about it.  Sure is a pretty looking little machine.



coolidge said:


> Dude if you spend even $49 on that warped-o-matic Miller table I will be forced to mock you.


Did you look at the fixed table (with a 3/8" plate) or their portable version (which has a 3/16" plate)?  I am going to have to trek down to Central Welding Supply and take a look.


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## coolidge (Jun 16, 2015)

Dang you have a Miller Dynasty that's a nice machine. Wait, you dropped coin on a Dynasty but don't own a Buildpro table? I would keep clear of the Lincoln 210MP, mine works fine but talking to the LWS they have had some returns and repairs I'm guessing due to the pressure of high demand and clearing the backlog of orders. I got mine early, one of the first 200 units when they were probably checking them carefully. It worked flawless all during my building the mill stand.

The table they have on display is thinner, I thought 1/4 inch but it could have been 3/16. When I was researching these I did find a couple people who like I read about the thinner tables being warped so they bought the thicker one and it was also warped. If you go look at them you will understand why that is, the way they slot them, the design almost encourages the thing to warp.

If you can find a flat one and it doesn't warp when heated I guess that may be better than what you have. I wish you could join the Buildpro club, its massively thick, mine is flat to within .002, I smile every time I use it or look at it.


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## tmarks11 (Jun 16, 2015)

Probably early-adopters disease with the 210MP.  Dynasty was like that for the first couple of year it was offered. Fortunately mine is a 2006, and it lays a sweet bead.  Only problem I ever had was replacing the stupid cooling fan. 
New fan: $16. 
Disassembling the entire stinking machine to get at the cooling fan in the middle: 4 hours. 
Machine works on reassembly: priceless.

I was sweating that I wouldn't get it back together again right.  Had to disconnect a few handfuls of electrical and electronic connections.  Not built for ease of maintenance. Didn't want to pay $300 to get a $16 muffin fan replaced.


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## coolidge (Jun 16, 2015)

That's a brutal fan replacement, someone should smack the engineer who designed that.


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## tmarks11 (Jun 16, 2015)

yeah, I get that they mounted it in the middle so it had a heatsink on each side of it.

But the fact that they didn't just build a slot to stick the muffin fan in... I swear that they started with the muffin fan, and everything got bolted on it first.  So taking it apart was sort of like unwrapping a present... disassembling the outer layers to get to the middle.

The fan was just weak.  It would run if you spun it to start, but otherwise... nothing. This is a VERY common failure issue with the dynasty.  Miller wanted $86 just for the fan.  I found a fan with the same spec (air flow vs. static pressure drop voltage, 120x38mm, 24V, a Delta AFB1224SHE-FOO) for $16, and now it works great.

That card cage like thing in the lower right below has the muffin fan bolted to it (to the left, even though you can't see it in the picture).  To get that card cage out, everything in it has to be removed so you can get at the bolts to the fan and to the other structural components of the welder that the card cage is bolted to.  All those yellow and white wires have to get unplugged, etc.




I will probably end up with the Miller 211.  I like that fact that it is manufactured in the US, don't see that much. I think Lincoln moved manufacturing to Mexico, and elsewhere (maybe a rumor, but the 210MG is definitely undercutting Miller's offers).

I have also thought the Miller Arcstation "X" took too big of a cut out of the table.  The web left in the middle just doesn't seem like it would give enough support, even if the table is 3/8" plate.


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## astjp2 (Jun 18, 2015)

Why not kennemetal facing mills?  There are a bunch on the bay for cheap..Tim


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## coolidge (Jun 18, 2015)

Wow well if you are going to bury a fan like that the fan needs to be spec'd to outlive the rest of the machine and never need replacing.


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## astjp2 (Jun 18, 2015)

We have mills at work that were built in the 80's, most of the fans died years ago, these machines will outlive the electronics.   Tim


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## PatMiles (Jun 25, 2015)

sanddan said:


> Fast shipping from ebay, I got my Glacern 3" face mill today and gave it a test drive. It came with one set of inserts installed, no idea what kind as there weren't any markings. I made a light pass on some steel (.010"), no noise or drama during the cut. I next tried a .030" cut and you could tell the inserts were dull by the finish. I rotated all of the inserts to get a fresh cutting edge and retried a .030" cut. Very smooth and the finish was very nice. I think it's a great buy for $113 shipped to my door.



$113.00 shipped? Did you kiss him at least?


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## Bray D (Jun 29, 2015)

I had the chance to use my face mill on some 1" square steel stock this weekend (making some T nuts). It was pretty harsh. It sounds like the gears in the head were knocking pretty good.

I experimented with various DOC from .015" up to approx .060". Toyed around with different speeds as well. Anything from nearly 100rpm up to 600rpm (coated carbide inserts on a 3" dia mill). Nothing I did seemed to quiet it down.

I decided to take it out and stuck my 1/2" rougher in there for most of the material removal. .100" DOC was still smooth as ever.

Do you guys' geared heads clank pretty loud when using your face mills?


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## sanddan (Jun 29, 2015)

Bray D said:


> I had the chance to use my face mill on some 1" square steel stock this weekend (making some T nuts). It was pretty harsh. It sounds like the gears in the head were knocking pretty good.
> 
> I experimented with various DOC from .015" up to approx .060". Toyed around with different speeds as well. Anything from nearly 100rpm up to 600rpm (coated carbide inserts on a 3" dia mill). Nothing I did seemed to quiet it down.
> 
> ...



That was the main reason I started looking at the Glacern. My mill came with a 4 insert face mill with unknown square inserts. I think they were HHS and even when I swapped them to a fresh cutting edge they made a racket and shook the mill really bad. They also gave me a crappy finish. The glacern is very quiet and smooth, only making noise when first getting the cut started. That goes away once the cutter is fully engaged. I was running 1180 RPM and took a .100" cut in steel like it was butter. I am using inserts I found on ebay for about $50 for a set of 10. Each insert has 4 cutting corners so should last awhile. Even better would be a 2.5" face mill as they use 5 inserts instead of 6. I'd like to find a 2" to go with the 3" as they use 4 inserts so the 10 pack would be perfect. The arbor works for 2", 2.5" and 3" so I am covered there.


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## Bray D (Jun 29, 2015)

Do you see any difference with the width of your workpiece? Is there a limit to the width of material you should cut with a face mill? 

I have a 3" mill and was wondering if there was a rule of thumb where you should always be cutting 1/2 or 3/4 of the mill diameter or something.


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## coolidge (Jun 30, 2015)

You can't bury a face mill 100% in the work it will chatter and screw up and otherwise beautiful finish. Even for roughing passes I try to use maybe 70% to 80% of the tool.


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## sanddan (Jun 30, 2015)

I use mine for 1.5" wide and up. Currently my biggest endmill is .500" so not good for getting stock flat with a decent finish.


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## PatMiles (Jul 30, 2015)

I finally found a Glacern face mill on Ebay. 2 1/2" FM45-250 face mill, R8-FM100 holder and 10 Korloy SEHT43-X83 inserts. Not quite the swinging deal that Sanddan scored but less than 1/3 the cost of new. Oh, did I mention that everything is NEW. Can't get here soon enough.


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## coolidge (Jul 31, 2015)

Congrats I have the same face mill. I paid retail, clearly I need to learn ebay.


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## PatMiles (Jul 31, 2015)

Yeppers, Ebay has saved me some serious $$$. Obviously, you have to be careful and ask the right questions.


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## sanddan (Jul 31, 2015)

Congratulation Pat, you'll love it.


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## PatMiles (Aug 3, 2015)

I received the Glacern FM45-250 facemill today. What a sweet piece of equipment. I think I need a cigarette!


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## sanddan (Aug 3, 2015)

Pictures?


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## PatMiles (Aug 3, 2015)

Identical to the pics in post 24 of this thread except with one less. Mine has 5 cutters while Sanddan's has 6. Almost too purty to use... almost.
Oh hell, that is you Sanddan. Go look at yours.


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