# 4 x 6 horizontal vertical band saw.



## Doc Hoy (Nov 24, 2019)

To move to Florida to assist parents, I sold out in Virginia including my entire shop. That included a Harbor Freight band saw (see title). I loved this saw even though it was from Harbor Freight. The saw was accurate and reliable. Parenthetically, if you know what you are buying, you can do well at Harbor Freight. 

Anyway, I started setting p a new shop in Naples and one of the things I needed was the band saw. I am a fan of Craigslist so I began watching. Yesterday I came up with what I thought was a Harbor Freight band saw. When I examined it, I was convinced that I was right. Now, I am not so certain. 

The thing needed a major cosmetic overhaul so I began to take it apart. I went for the standard 10, 12, 13, 14 mm wrenches only to find they did not fit. I tried some SAE hardware in locations where hardware needed replacing and found that the entire saw is put together with American size screws, nuts and bolts. 

I know of no other HF tool that uses anything but metric hardware. My last saw was all metric.

It is not beyond HF to adapt a design from the U.S. or other national manufacturer and build it cheaper in China. That means there is an expensive and well built American version and a cheaper (and in many cases inferior) Chinese version. However, I am aware of no American version of this saw. Am I missing something?


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## darkzero (Nov 24, 2019)

I'm not sure who the original maker was but I always believed it was Rong Fu (Taiwan). So many are clones of the RF-128. Some were actually made by Rong Fu & rebranded, like the Enco I use to have that was made in Taiwan by Rong Fu. The older green HF 4x6 was identical to my Enco and may actually be made by RF but not the red ones. Same with older HF RF-31s that were  made in Taiwan.

Most machinery made in Taiwan are made with imperial fasteners, sometimes a mixture of imperial & metric. Like my RF-712N bandsaw, most of the fasteners are imperial but there are a few metric fasteners on it too which is a pet peeve of mine. So my guess is some (but not all) of these 4x6 clones copied the use of imperial fasteners also. But for what rhyme or reason I have no clue.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 25, 2019)

darkzero said:


> I'm not sure who the original maker was but I always believed it was Rong Fu (Taiwan). So many are clones of the RF-128. Some were actually made by Rong Fu & rebranded, like the Enco I use to have that was made in Taiwan by Rong Fu. The older green HF 4x6 was identical to my Enco and may actually be made by RF but not the red ones. Same with older HF RF-31s that were  made in Taiwan.
> 
> Most machinery made in Taiwan are made with imperial fasteners, sometimes a mixture of imperial & metric. Like my RF-712N bandsaw, most of the fasteners are imperial but there are a few metric fasteners on it too which is a pet peeve of mine. So my guess is some (but not all) of these 4x6 clones copied the use of imperial fasteners also. But for what rhyme or reason I have no clue.


Good info. My HF job had all metric fasteners and threads. This one is completely American. That includes the allen set screws in the pulleys.  I bought it for a hundred bucks, knowing I would need to do some cosmetic work. I will also do some mods to make it more user friendly.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 25, 2019)

In my previous post, I mentioned mods. I stole these ideas:






And these:









						Harbor Freight band saw modifications
					

I know there are tons of band saw modifications and post about them on here and everywhere else. After tuning up my old 4 x 6 band saw and getting it to be the metal eating beast it should be, I decided to do some upgrades. I searched the net and found enough upgrade sites and write ups to keep...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## markba633csi (Nov 25, 2019)

I have a late 70s 4x6 bandsaw made by Trans World Steel in Taiwan. It has nearly all American-size fasteners also.
Mark


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## darkzero (Nov 25, 2019)

Doc Hoy said:


> In my previous post, I mentioned mods. I stole these ideas:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha, that chip pan looks familiar!


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 25, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> I have a late 70s 4x6 bandsaw made by Trans World Steel in Taiwan. It has nearly all American-size fasteners also.
> Mark


Many of the castings on this saw are marked with two and three digit numbers preceded by either "C" or "S". This saw could easily be that old.

The restoration is going well so far. In point of fact, I am reluctant to call it a restoration becasue all I am restoring is paint and finish.


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## hman (Nov 27, 2019)

Interesting that the fasteners have inch size heads.  But double check the thread pitch.  I've seen several Chinese tools recently that have what I call "ba$tard" fasteners - either inch heads with metric threads, or metric heads and inch threads.  All kinds of strange stuff going on!

I've refurbished and resold a goodly number of these 4x6 bandsaws.  Seems like there are at least 4 or 5 different versions ... 4 or 6 bolts on the gearbox cover, several different shapes of handles on the arm, saw guide bars inside or outside the arm casting, Taiwan or mainland China, etc.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 29, 2019)

hman said:


> Interesting that the fasteners have inch size heads.  But double check the thread pitch.  I've seen several Chinese tools recently that have what I call "ba$tard" fasteners - either inch heads with metric threads, or metric heads and inch threads.  All kinds of strange stuff going on!
> 
> I've refurbished and resold a goodly number of these 4x6 bandsaws.  Seems like there are at least 4 or 5 different versions ... 4 or 6 bolts on the gearbox cover, several different shapes of handles on the arm, saw guide bars inside or outside the arm casting, Taiwan or mainland China, etc.


Thread pitch is American sizes too. I know that some of the hardware has been replaced. But in each case, an American fastener was put in place of a fastener without the need to resize or rethread the hole. I am preparing some photos to attach. Possibly Friday.

BTW Happy Thanksgiving gang.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 29, 2019)

After pulling the machine apart, I realized that I paid too much for it. Live and learn.

Here is a photo of the front of the machine. Just like my HF job but with some minor differences.

Note that just below the gear box, there is a shaft for mounting a small grinding wheel. 

The second photo is the motor mount. The tightener is caste iron. A little different. A second knob like this is on the spring tightener.

Mote later.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 29, 2019)

I have started to put the saw together. Couple modifications/repairs

1. The ball bearings for the blade guide had, at some point be replaced with bearings of a larger bore. I made some sleeves to tighten them up. Blade rides much better but still needs a bit of work.

2. The handle for the vise was broken. Made a new one and extended it as some on the internet suggest. Great idea!

The main spring had lost tension. Previous owners fix was washers. I made a spacer for the tenshioning rod.

I put togher a replacement stand which is being painted. Will put that together Friday. I designed the stand to provide better stability when the saw is verticle. Details at eleven.

Also will use lockable casters. 

Replaced all of the wiring.


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## hman (Nov 30, 2019)

Doc -  Neat machine in your photos!  I've never seen anything like it before.  Undoubtedly pretty old, and predates the "cheapening/simplification" of the design by more recent manufacturers.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

hman said:


> Doc -  Neat machine in your photos!  I've never seen anything like it before.  Undoubtedly pretty old, and predates the "cheapening/simplification" of the design by more recent manufacturers.


That is my thought. My lack of experience denies me the ability to reach back into the past to recall machines of this nature.  It just "seems" old and it also "seems" American.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

Doc Hoy said:


> That is my thought. My lack of experience denies me the ability to reach back into the past to recall machines of this nature.  It just "seems" old and it also "seems" American.


Further, I do acknowledge the opinions of other craftsmen on the forum as to the origin of the machine.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

Here are more photos of the original saw. The rear view of the saw focusing on the spring tensioner and the vise. The bar is the upper blade guide slide.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

Some additional shots. The stand. How much is scrap steel worth?    ;o)


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

Final original photos. Lower blade guide, sliding vise jaw and fixed vise jaw.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

Here is the machine ready to operate. (Not finished but at least usable). Front. Starboard side and port side.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

More images. Upper and lower blade guide. The blade guide cleaned up well enough to reuse. I found that the bearings have an internal bore of 5/16, but they are held in place with 1/4 inch bolts. I made sleeves to take up the slack. I know, I know! Why didn't you just go buy replacement bearings?! Too much of a tightwad. The blade is still in need of adjustment in order to track properly. I am working on it.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

Final shots. Stand.


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## francist (Nov 30, 2019)

Wow, now that’s what I call a make-over!
Nice job, I especially like the new stand. How does the machine cut, or have you had a chance to try it much yet?

-frank


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## Bob Korves (Nov 30, 2019)

Make a guard for that belt...


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 30, 2019)

That's almost too pretty to use. I'm like you, why spend $10 on new parts when I can spend 2 hours fixing the old ones?


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## rzw0wr (Nov 30, 2019)

I have a fairly new 4x6 Grizzly cutoff band saw.

It does a decent job just slow.
1HP 110v, it is under powered.

Good saw for the price I guess.

Dale


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## darkzero (Nov 30, 2019)

rzw0wr said:


> I have a fairly new 4x6 Grizzly cutoff band saw.
> 
> It does a decent job just slow.
> 1HP 110v, it is under powered.
> ...



Curious, why do you feel it's underpowered? Is it because it cuts slow?

Generally that's what bandsaws (metal cutting) do, cut slow, the benefit is a cleaner cut than most other methods.

I had an Enco 4x6 & I never felt it was underpowered or have ever encountered it struggling with a cut power wise. Blade teeth pitch make a big difference on how fast something is cut but really matters on what is being cut. I used bi-metal 8-12 tpi blades the most on that saw but when I needed a faster cut on larger solid stock I would use 6-10 tpi which was the coarsest I could find prewelded.

I now have a MSC 7x12 & still use those same pitch blades but I tend to use the 6-10 tpi the most now. I use 5-8 tpi on larger stock.


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## hman (Nov 30, 2019)

VERY nice refurbishing job!  Looks like you made the stand a bit higher than the original ... much better than the "stoop" level of modern saws.  And a nice crank arm on the vise screw (which looks like a lot finer pitch than that on recent ones.)  The bolted-on casting on the upper blade guide is also fascinating.  Has an "old school" look to it, and I can see why they'd want to redesign it for lower cost on later saws.  Yours is difinitely a classic!


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

francist said:


> Wow, now that’s what I call a make-over!
> Nice job, I especially like the new stand. How does the machine cut, or have you had a chance to try it much yet?
> 
> -frank


Thanks, Frank. I used the saw to make the stand. IN the process I learned that it is not a standard 64.5 inch blade. It is 67 inches. I guess you know the next sentence. I found that out by breaking the blade, buying what I thought was the right blade, trying unsuccessfully to put it on the saw, developing some new and imaginative vocabulary.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> Make a guard for that belt...


No belt guard planned. That may sound odd from a guy who once taught OSHA 10 and 30 hour courses. It had a guard which rattled so bad I could not hear myself think. Thanks for the advice but my plan is to be careful as was the case with my last saw.


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## Doc Hoy (Nov 30, 2019)

hman said:


> VERY nice refurbishing job!  Looks like you made the stand a bit higher than the original ... much better than the "stoop" level of modern saws.  And a nice crank arm on the vise screw (which looks like a lot finer pitch than that on recent ones.)  The bolted-on casting on the upper blade guide is also fascinating.  Has an "old school" look to it, and I can see why they'd want to redesign it for lower cost on later saws.  Yours is difinitely a classic!


Thanks Hman.

I made the stand the right height so that the surface of the saw is the same level as a stock support I have in the shop. Set the support to its lowest level and it is perfect for the saw. You are correct about the height of saws including this one when it was original. Too low. The castings and mounting for the blade guides is finicky. It make tracking adjustments an interesting process. You may also notice that the wheels on the motor end extend further out from under the saw. Makes it much more stable when the motor plate is in the vertical position. My HF saw always wanted to tip over.


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## mickri (Nov 30, 2019)

More projects added to the list.  My craftsman 3x6 could use all of these mod's.  Thanks for posting


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## Doc Hoy (Dec 1, 2019)

I wish I could claim the credit for the ideas in those mods. In every case but one, I got the inspiration for other, more imaginative and creative folks. The only idea that is original is the longer wheelbase on the stand.


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## rzw0wr (Dec 4, 2019)

DarkZero,
The motor will stall easily.

You get mostly a dust of metal instead of a curling chip.


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## Doc Hoy (Dec 7, 2019)

I FOUND IT!

Sprunger Brothers CS800 Dual Metal Band Saw. Year of manuf unknown. Serial number is in the 84xxx range. Lowest number I could find was 83xxx and highest was 87xxx. Neither were dated. It appears that serial numbers are not unique to the machine because five digit numbers in the 8xxxx region refer to all types of machinery. 

Made in Ligonier, Indiana.

Company operated from 1946 until 1984


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## markba633csi (Dec 7, 2019)

Wow that is an unusual one- I've never seen one with that grinding wheel feature.  I'm thinking you might want to use grease in the gearbox rather than oil if you start having trouble with leaks around the bottom shaft
Nice restoration, great name.  "Did your mom get out of prison yet?"  "Yes they just Sprunger yesterday"!
Mark


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## Doc Hoy (Dec 7, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Wow that is an unusual one- I've never seen one with that grinding wheel feature.  I'm thinking you might want to use grease in the gearbox rather than oil if you start having trouble with leaks around the bottom shaft
> Nice restoration, great name.  "Did your mom get out of prison yet?"  "Yes they just Sprunger yesterday"!
> Mark


Uh Oh. I guess it is Opun Season.

Yes, already thought of the grease. What made me think of it? Leaks around the bottom shaft.

This is a clear explanation of the completely American dimensions.


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## Doc Hoy (Dec 7, 2019)

A Sprunger catalogue from 1980, shows the saw. It is not included in a catalogue from 1950/


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## Doc Hoy (Dec 9, 2019)

This saw and its characteristics provides some insight into the model that the Chinese companies used. The design by Sprunger is a good one. It is easily adaptable. The Sprunger organization is defunct meaning that patent issues are unlikely.

Harbor Freight seems to be on a quest for improved quality in their machine tools and equipment. I recently bought a Vulcan 220 Multifunction welder and I love it. Also bought the welding table and I have zero complaints. If one knows which iterms to avoid, HF is a viable source.

My examination of this machine compels me to conclude that, when it was new, it was of higher quality than my HF job.
The various machines made by Sprunger do not seem to generate a lot of criticism on the Internet. This one is still in pretty good shape in spite of the fact that it is at least forty years old and for much of it’s life it appears to have been rode hard and put up wet. The last five years saw it "stored carefully" outside in the rain.

I am happy to have this saw. When I get it to where I want it, my evaluation of it will be above the retail price of the Harbor Freight version.


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