# Enco 13x40 Spindle bent or headstock mis-aligned?



## barrydc1 (Feb 25, 2013)

Hi all, especially Richard maybe.  I have been reading all that i can on headstock/lathe alignment here and need some help.  I have been through the whole thread that Mike posted on his troubles with his 13x40 Jet.  They were helpful, but my problem is different. Here is the story:

I was using a ball turner to turn some knobs, and came too close to the chuck as I rotated the turner and crashed the chuck into the turner extension, which simply nicked the extension slide on the ball turner and pull it up out of the turret.  It didn't seem like a major crash, but now I notice that I am turning a taper in a very short distance (.004 in less than 4 inches) without the tailstock involved, when it was much, much less than that before.  So, thinking that my headstock might be mis-alignmed due to the crash, I set about doing the research.  I've read several threads and online stuff. I have the book "Machine Tool Reconditioning" though I'm such a novice that it seems very daunting to me.

I have now tried the following.  I turned a test bar using the method describe by Richard King in the 13x40 jet thread.  This gives me a taper of .0043 in the 6 inches of the test bar. I also have a 5MT x 12" x 2" precision ground test bar for the spindle. So, I took the test bar and put it in the chuck on the non-tapered end and using a .0001 DT moved the alignment of the headstock until I had. .0002 run out over the 10" sticking out.  Then I rotated the chuck with the test bar in it.  This show some interesting results.  I have made a video of this result here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSst2L_YaAw

It appears to me that the spindle is bent.  Am I way off base here, or is there something else I need to do.  I have not yet done a 3" facing test cut, but need first to explain how the bar can move so far without a bend in the spindle.  Does that happen?  Please help.


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## joesmith (Feb 25, 2013)

Barry, Interesting problem.  I would suggest u perfom a couple more tests to isolate/elminate possibilities.  Have you checked the spindle bearings for runout?  I would try rotating the spindle by hand with an indicator reading on the inside of the MT5 spindle taper.  Then I would set the indicator directly on the spindle (not the chuck)  insert a 2 or 3 foot long heavy bar in the spindle and lift with 70/90 lbs of force.  You should see little of any movement on the indicator if the bearings are tight.  It is possible that the jar moved a bearing retained a little allowing play. Indicating the spindle while rotating would show movement with a bent spindle and also if the bearings are loose or damaged.  Both tests are necessary to isolate.

Good luck. Not a fun problem


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## barrydc1 (Feb 25, 2013)

Thanks for the quick response.  I did run a DTI in the morse taper of the spindle, and have less than .0001 run-out.  The test bar in the spindle with applied pressure results in movement of .0004 or less with moderate pressure in all directions.  I do note that when rotating the spindle by hand that it has some drag, but assume this is bearing preload, but it really isn't as smooth as I would like or think it should be, but then again I don't have much experience with anything different.


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## Richard King (Feb 25, 2013)

Hi Barry,

I just saw this.  I would tighten your spindle bearings first.  Was your test on a warm or cold spindle?  I am assuming your .0004" is lost motion right?  That is you push the bar and let go, make your reading and pull the bar and let go and you get .0004" ?

You should not get .0001" TIR on a warm spindle.  

Do you have a vee block to test your test bar?  Or a granite table to roll it on like you do when you check the straightness of a pool cue.  Have some bearing blue to check the taper contact?  Is it real tight when you slide it in?   Can you indicate the test bar in for run out by tapping the end with a soft blow hammer and then check the bed parallelism.

I would not trust the test bar and the reading you got was a fluke.  So just use the turning on the tube and the 2 collar test.  I just down-loaded the 2 collar test on my Scraping Forum.  You look like you are doing it right though.  After you turned the test bar, did you check the run out of the tube?  
Sometimes it's easier to help via the phone so call me at 651 338 8141.

Bottom line is I would trust the 2 collar test before the test bar as you are following the spindle bearing axis.  I have seem more people get messed up when the taper is screwed up and they figure the ground bar is perfect.

We should be able to figure this out.
Rich


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## barrydc1 (Feb 25, 2013)

Richard,

The spindle was not warm when I turned it with the DTI on it.  Also, I'm not sure that I did what you were talking about when I put pressure on the bar to move the spindle, it was just in one direction with very imprecise pull of my hand and not reading anything as I let go besides seeing it return to normal.  I will give you a call, as I would love to get this straightened out.  I did print out the instructions that you gave mike for turning the test pipe, though my pipe is only 1-3/8".  I do have some aluminum that I can cut down but would rather not due to cost unless it's necessary, but I sure can I have 12" of 3" 6061 and 12" of 2" 6061 solid.  I'll check this thread again and see if you responded, but what is a good time to call.  I have a real job too, but if you can give the time, I am willing to work with you as well.  I am my own boss except that my patients really are, though I don't do emergency usually.  So what's a good time to call I see you are in Minnesota and I in Montana 2 hrs with my time being 5:47 and yours 7:47?  Let me know.


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## Richard King (Feb 25, 2013)

I can chat anytime from 9 AM to 9 PM CST.  But before you call how about moving the head using the tube you have now.  I am assuming the machine cut straight before the crash??  Did you try adjusting the bed?  I hope not.  If You did do you have a precision level to verify it is still straight and not twisted.  I am assuming your head-stock has a swivel pin too?


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## Richard King (Feb 25, 2013)

I found this manual on the Enco site and it looks like the head-stock is just sitting on a flat surface.  It's a lousy manual, so I am not sure if the head is dowel pinned or has the swivel pin and adjuster like Mikes lathe.  If it has a tapered dowel pin maintaining the head-stock alignment , check to see if it's broken or bent.  If it doesn't have anything accept bolts when you have it aligned, lets put in some pins.
Rich


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## barrydc1 (Feb 25, 2013)

I'll have this coming Friday (the 1st) free, to put some time into this.  I could call then at anytime during the times you mention then.

I have made sure the lathe is level front to back all along the length and leveled the length of the lathe left to right longitudinally along the bed with a 12" precision square with level .0002 in 10".  I did this re-leveling before starting any of this.  The lathe cut reasonably straight before, as I had no trouble maintaining tolerances until the crash.  I sadly did not do any testing prior to this when I first got the lathe besides leveling it  when I installed it.  I have not attempted anything regarding the bed. In the moving of the headstock that I did, it moved very predictably, and so I assume it has a swivel pin though I cannot see it.  It does have the four bolts like similar to Mike's, and the adjusting bolt/block set-up.  It was fairly simple to get it aligned to the test bar on the one side.  There are no dowel pins, or I doubt I would have been able to adjust it so easily with just the 4 bolts loosened.  I have no idea how I would install pins, as drilling and access to the area seems impossible without total disassembly of the entire headstock, spindle and gearing.

What do mean when you say move the head using the tube I have now?  Do you mean re-chuck the 2 collar test pipe I made and adjust the headstock until it cuts the same?


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## Richard King (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes use the 2 collar shaft you have now.  It's out .0043" right.    I sounds like your head has a pin then. Just forget about the test bar and chuck up the tube and take more cuts until the far right is .0001 to .0002" Big.

I suspect the test bar has some issues.   Bed time here.   No problem on when you call..It's my cell and I have it close all the time.

Rich


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## jmh8743 (Feb 26, 2013)

Hello Richard (Mr. King) and Barry,

barry, I was reluctant to use a high $$$ piece  of AL also. Use it!! The time it will save is well worth it. Or buy one. Believe me.

 Rich will get it figured out.

Also I used my test bar to get me close, removed it and verifed, adjusted with the "2 collar" bar. 
My experience was exacerbated by my own errors and the fact I do not have phone service at the shop and my stupid reluctance to avoid my good bar.

Rich will help you with the sensitivity with the HS bolts.

this is a great forum.

mike
Cullman now (phone here)


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## barrydc1 (Feb 26, 2013)

Richard King said:


> Yes use the 2 collar shaft you have now.  It's out .0043" right.    I sounds like your head has a pin then. Just forget about the test bar and chuck up the tube and take more cuts until the far right is .0001 to .0002" Big.
> 
> I suspect the test bar has some issues.   Bed time here.   No problem on when you call..It's my cell and I have it close all the time.
> 
> Rich



All right, I'll go with the cuts until I can get the right collar a little bigger by the amount above.  Is it okay that I have removed the chuck and 2-collar bar?  Should I re-do the cuts?  And, do I repeat the procedure each time as if I were cutting the first time on each collar?  I assume that should be consistant.  Would there be an advantage to using the aluminum at all, I'm not that attached to it.

Thanks for you generous offering of time.

Barry

Oh, and one bad thing about these lathes is the necessity of removing the change gears and tension arm to get to the adjustment bolt on the front back of the headstock.


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## Richard King (Feb 26, 2013)

I tried to explain this in Mikes post.  On the 2 collar test bar re-cut the 2 pads first, make them narrower, say 3/8" to 1/2".  You don't seem to get it yet that turning is the best way as this is what a lathe does.  I find the test bar slid into a hole that was probably turned and not ground is a bad deal on these cheap lathes.  Using a precision test bar in a lousy hole is a waste.

Put the chuck back on and put your test bar back in.  Turn all the surfaces again to clean up.  Cut the center relief down .020 lower then the collars.  

Now you have to turn both collars the same size.  If the right side is big, turn it down so each collar mic's the same.  Now remove the the tool post and mount a mag base and dial indicator on the compound put the indicator on side of the 2 collar test bar, zero the indicator in the same exact place the tool bit was.  Take off your gears, loosen the bolts and but snug them back up, but not tight.  Now crank the saddle left and right  Adjust the head so the test bar is zero and + 0002 like I said before.  

When you indicate the 2 collar  bar it will show the 0043" off as it was before.  Adjust the head so the bed is zero.
Then tighten the bolts, check it again and if it is still good assemble the gears and take another cut with the tool bit.  This should do the trick.  Mike called me today and we talked.  He is following this post and if he hasn't written yet, I wish he would as he has good news  

If you have questions, ask away or call me.  651 338 8141.


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## barrydc1 (Feb 27, 2013)

Richard King said:


> I tried to explain this in Mikes post.  On the 2 collar test bar re-cut the 2 pads first, make them narrower, say 3/8" to 1/2".  You don't seem to get it yet that turning is the best way as this is what a lathe does.  I find the test bar slid into a hole that was probably turned and not ground is a bad deal on these cheap lathes.  Using a precision test bar in a lousy hole is a waste.
> 
> Put the chuck back on and put your test bar back in.  Turn all the surfaces again to clean up.  Cut the center relief down .020 lower then the collars.
> 
> ...



Rich,

You kind of answered my question, but there are some things you are not following.  First, I already adjusted the headstock before beginning this THREAD.  That means that the .0043 is no longer going to be the offset.  Secondly, I was not disputing the value you place on using the 2 collar test bar and I intend to do that, following the directions that I quote from you above and that I have already printed out from the previous thread with Mike.  You did not, however, answer the question as to whether it would be preferrable to use the hollow bar I show in the pictures and at the end of the video (you did watch that, didn't you?) or the larger 2" aluminum bar stock (not hollow) that I have.  Since the headstock as been adjusted since cutting the first 2 collar test bar, I will likely need to recut it anyway as you note above.  Thus the question:  Which is better, the hollow 1-3/8 bar re-cut, or the 2" aluminum starting fresh?

Are we on the same page now? I also will not be able to get to this until probably Friday at which point I will have attempted to do what you instructed, and will call you and report my success or failure or at least the results.

Maybe then we can talk also about precision ground test bars and poorly ground or turned spindle taper holes and the apparent falsified tests of the certifiers who say they meet certain criteria.  Maybe I will just consider find a Leblond or Clausing.


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## Richard King (Feb 28, 2013)

I read and write these at night after a long day or scraping, As I am sure you are frustrated as Mike was.  I watched the You Tube at least 3 times....I was saying to put the tube back in.  It now has collars and relief in it right?

here is what I said  " _Put the chuck back on and put your test bar back in. Turn all the surfaces again to clean up. Cut the center relief down .020 lower then the collars. 

I was talking about your steel tube.  

You can also use the aluminum if you want.  Both should cut the same.  

I'm lost about you adjusted it and  is now cutting straight? 

I need to talk to you this typing and trying to explain something is the pit's sometime.

If the machine cuts straight forget about the spindle hole unless your using a collet or a lathe dog?   If you want to use a lathe dog, cut a dead center in the chuck and let the dog rest on the jaws to eliminate a face plate.

Good night

_


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## jmh8743 (Feb 28, 2013)

Barry,
wish I could help. But after say 20 times you get fast at reset. It is not easy. I think my machine came from the same mold, just diff Chinese.

I'm not going to complicate this thread; but I will say mine is now "cutting" my on test bar. Forget the MT in the HS. I used my bar as a guide only to get me close.
My first was too small, second was a tube. The third AL 2".

i successfully recut an AL bar to w/I a tenth. Yeah. So now it's done. I gave my Enco away. The JET is much better machine, but.....  
My thought, as a novice was to start new. That was misjudgement. But, if we hired and expert to help, that was really knowledgeable, it would be a savings. 

With that being said, it appears you are there.

mike. Best wishes.

Everyone needs to be aware of these issues.
that is why we need these groups.


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## barrydc1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Well, I had a good long talk with Richard today and we basically carried out the plan noted above.  I decided to use the 2" AL bar stock, as cutting easier might result in less cutting forces with 8" sticking out and therefore less part deflection.  I followed the procedure for making a 2 collar bar this is noted here:
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment Lathe Alignment Test I&II.doc


You can see my set-up in the pictures here:





After 4 trials of cutting and measuring I was able to get a .0002 difference at least as well as I could mic it. But the good thing is it is much more parallel to the ways than previously.






So basically success, except that I still get an annoying bit of run-out (about .0005 in the diameter of the part) after it is cut.  Richard and I discussed this, and after tightening the bearing a little less than 1/8th of an inch of rotational translation. it was not much different.  Wonder what all the possible causes of that could be?  Also, as I did the "Lathe Alignment II" test after all of this was done, I got the results shown in the pictures here:








Not bad, but a strange dish right in the middle.  Is that my cross-slide gibs or something? It's good enough for now, but I'm tempted if I ever get some time to take it all apart and completely re-condition the lathe just to see if it's worth taking Chinese beginnings and seeing if one could turn it into something better, but then I think I would rather  just get an old US or British or German toolroom lathe in bad shape and try that.  I think I need to start making money with this first.


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## Ray C (Mar 2, 2013)

The dishing on a face cut is likely due to the lower SFM's in the middle of the piece.  I've been up & down that issue and the eureka moment was observing that the harder the metal, the more pronounced it is.  Sometimes it went inward, sometimes outward and it corresponded to whether or not I was using carbide or sharp HSS on either hard or soft metal.  I took the compound apart looking for the issue with a TDI -nothing wrong.  Everything checked-out square.  Different cutters interact differently on varying metals when SFM changes.  In the case I had a bump instead of a dish, a second pass cleaned it up and it never went negative -telling me, there was nothing wrong with the machinery involved.


Ray


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## jmh8743 (Mar 2, 2013)

Gary,
I am amazed at the similarity of our lathes. My Enco was very different; however, my JET and your Enco are almost identical after seeing the pictures you posted. Just different color. Read that elsewhere.

thanks to Richard again. Good show! And Gary your documentation will help others with these machines.

i think a standard test bar should be AL, as you determined.

thanks for your help to the community.

mike


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## barrydc1 (Mar 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone once again for all the help. And I think I agree with the dishing issue, as it does seem to gone with clean-up especially of both sides.  I was using uncoated carbide on 6061 aluminum.

I have now aligned my tailstock to the headstock, and sadly now that everything is nice and precise, I am out of time to do any fun cutting, but that will come next weekend I hope.  However, I may start a new thread on how to true-in a import set-tru type 6" 6-jaw chuck.  I'm going to try it first, but I am going to cut the back plate first a bit more as it fits a little too tight after my initial work on it. But this is all for a new thread.

Many thanks for all the help here, and hope that what I have done helps others, and feel free to contact me with anything that you might need from what I have learned.  Great group here!

Oh, and Mike, yes I think our lathes are essentially the same, you can see better in these later pictures.  I really should have shown the location of my headstock bolts and the adjustment nut/bolt assembly, but your post does show that well.  I was thinking of making a video showing the process, but I would have been very long tedious and boring or taken a great deal of time to edit that all out.

Barry


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## Richard King (Mar 11, 2013)

I have asked Barry to align his tail-stock the way I have been teaching for years and the way my dad did it.  I asked him to take pictures like he did on the 2 collar test shown in this post.  He took lots of pictures.  He did it over the weekend.    I am setting him up.  Thanks Barry!  Hopefully he will post it tomorrow.  He's a great photographer and makes lots of great adjustments )  in more ways then one...!


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## barrydc1 (Mar 12, 2013)

For those interested, I am going to post the instructions that Richard sent me and others his method of tailstock to headstock alignment as well as the evaluation of one other occasionally used method that he had heard about.  I will post this under a new thread in the Machine way scraping and restoration though it might be better in the Metrology section, but Richard doesn't moderate that one, and since it could go under others that's just where I'll put it.  If anyone knows how to make it an article, it would be good to do that.  Anyway check this link here to get to the method he uses:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/show...-Tailstock-with-Headstock?p=106737#post106737


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## Restorer (Jun 14, 2013)

I have read through this thread with some interest.

The observation is that when work is held in the headstock only (No Tail stock center) and turned results in a shallow taper being observed.

Step #1 Check the level of the machine right to left and front to back at several positions along the bed.  Use a precision machine level with a graduated vile to measure.
Step #2 Shim the machine legs to get the machine level.
Step #3 Make a test cut ( two disks attached to a shaft reduces cutting time).  
Step #4 From now on the shimming is at the tail stock end of the bed only. If the tail stock end of the test piece is large, shim the front right leg.  If the headstock end is large shim the right rear leg.

The issue is caused by an out of level condition twisting the bed ever so slightly.
I cant advise how much to shim, as several variables are at play, amount of correction required, bed length, and what foundation the lathe is on are the most important.


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## Richard King (Jun 14, 2013)

Barry's head stock has a pivot under it and after he had the lathe bed level he turned the head-stock to get the alignment correct.   I would also set the level on the top of the cross-slide and make it level with the earth by placing a feeler gage under one side or by turning the leveling jacks or shimming in the old lathes that did not have leveling screws.  In some older South Bend Lathes I would tap the hold down bolts or drill and tap leveling screw holes 5/8 fine thread near the hole so no shimming is needed.  

Lathes do not need to be leveled, but the ways need to be Parallel to each other  As some other and I have always said, how do you leverl a lathe on a Aircraft carrier or a Slant bed lathe?   You don't  but you ude a level that is attached to the cross-slide that is level with the earth and move the saddle to check for twists in the bed. This way you are also checking the  invisible tool path.  In some cases you can adjust the bed in a twist to compensate for wear.  This will affect boring a hole and tail-stock alignment.   Many will shim the head-stock, but I never recommend this.  

If you can't twist or tweek the bed then you need to rebuild the machine.  You can also mount a mag base and indicator on the crosslide / compound or a indicator mounted in the Aloris tool post with the indicator on the tail-stock end collar (you say disk)  and I find that you move it 1 to 1 on the indicator as you shim, turn the head or adjust the leveling screws.  So if the outside TS end collar is big by .002" when you mic, then you adjust the front TS leveling screw down to lift the bed and the indicator reads .002+.  Then re-cut the bar again.  It's a trial and error method that works quit well.


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## Kickstart (Aug 11, 2013)

Thanks, very nice of you to take the time. :thumbzup:


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