# E-Star Same as Torx?



## Chips O'Toole (Jun 21, 2020)

This week I got tired of the leak from my garbage disposal, so I decided to fix it. It may have been possible to dismantle the disposal and replace a gasket between the motor and body, but the connection to the sink was so corroded, I had to cut the disposal in two with a sawzall, so I replaced it with a better model. As the manufacturer, Insinkerator/Emerson surely hoped.

Had I been able to remove the old disposal in one piece, I would have had to use something resembling a Torx wrench to remove the bolts holding it together. The miserable fiends at Insinkerator made it with tamper-proof bolts, presumably in order to prevent consumers by tampering with it (i.e. repairing it and not buying a new one). I have seen all sorts of female Torx fasteners, but these were male. That was a new one. I thought I had every tamper-proof bit in existence, but Emerson/Insinkerator managed to come up with something new.

I want a set of sockets for this type of fastener. Tekton makes a set of male Torx sockets accompanied by female "E-Star" sockets. Is "E-Star" a way of saying "Torx" without paying the Torx people? If they fit Torx fasteners, there must be some reason why they don't call them "Torx sockets." I don't want to  buy this stuff and then find out it only works on some exotic fastener I've never seen.


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## Chips O'Toole (Jun 21, 2020)

Well, I found the answer. Torx expects money for anything with "Torx" stamped on it, so manufacturers design around their patents and trademarks. "E-star" just means "Torx."

Emerson deserves a 16-EEE foot in a certain location for using these fasteners and for supplying mounting hardware that rusts.


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## Tozguy (Jun 21, 2020)

I'm only a 9-D but count me in.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 21, 2020)

I disagree. Nothing has better torque capacity vs fastener head size than torx. Except maybe Torx-plus.  T-xx, T-xxP, and inverse torx, E-xx.  Virtually all the major fasteners in my cars are Torx of some variation.  Iffen you don't like them, don't buy anything European designed after the mid-80s, or anything Merican or Asian post mid 2000s.  

Although I do have some words for the clown that chose tamper-proof  torx-plus for the variable cam system in the BMW B-12 motor.....


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## Chips O'Toole (Jun 21, 2020)

How much torque capacity do you need to fasten a motor to a garbage disposal? Far less than the maximum torque you can apply to a hex fastener. Why would you need a male fastener?

They could have use hex bolts, just like Baldor and all the other companies that make motors. They chose to use the rarest kind of Torx fastener in order to discourage people from repairing their own property. If the issue was that they needed fasteners that worked well with automated assembly, they could have used female Torx fasteners like everyone else.

If they made the mounting hardware from stainless, you could uninstall a garbage disposal for repair, even if it had leaked on the hardware. They used plated junk to save money and to assure that a big percentage of disposals would be impossible to uninstall for repair without destroying them.

I have a European motorcycle made in 2000. It has hex fasteners. My post-2000 American vehicles have hex fasteners, too.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 21, 2020)

I said designed, not made. There are parts in a Chevy pickups made this decade  that were designed in the 1960s and use imperial fasteners  But I can assure you the fastener choice was made for reasons other than to screw over those that won't buy a $10 E-socket set from Harbor Freight.


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## Canus (Jun 21, 2020)

Just finished repairing a garbage disposal for my son.  This unit had similar bolts.  Removed them with a standard six point socket.


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## Chips O'Toole (Jun 21, 2020)

RandyWilson said:


> But I can assure you the fastener choice was made for reasons other than to screw over those that won't buy a $10 E-socket set from Harbor Freight.



You think manufacturers don't deliberately make things hard to repair? Can you explain why they chose a fastener other manufacturers don't use?



> I said designed, not made.



You're saying my American vehicles weren't designed in America and that my European motorcycle wasn't designed in Europe?



> Just finished repairing a garbage disposal for my son.  This unit had similar bolts.  Removed them with a standard six point socket.



I never reached the point where I could try that because the mounting hardware had rusted solid.


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## Tozguy (Jun 22, 2020)

Torx style fasteners are OK with me. It just means that I need more tools. I have not had one strip yet. It is no fun when a hex socket screw strips.

The tamper proof aspect is tamper poof. Tool bits for the full range of tamper proof designs are available at any hardware store. Someone who is inclined to repair stuff will not be stumped by tamper poof fasteners.

My beef is with plumbing supplies that are not designed to last. When we pay top dollar for plumbing material and fixtures, we should get something that will survive in a wet environment.


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## CluelessNewB (Jun 22, 2020)

I'm fine with Torx, what I don't understand is why anyone still uses straight slot screws!


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## whitmore (Jun 22, 2020)

CluelessNewB said:


> I'm fine with Torx, what I don't understand is why anyone still uses straight slot screws!


One (good?) reason is historic furniture repair... there's an esthetic reason for a wide variety of connector cruftsmanship.

I was fine with Bristol spline; got a couple of sets of wrenches, have a half-pound of the fasteners, but
they became unobtainium some years ago.


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## Nogoingback (Jun 22, 2020)

Chips O'Toole said:


> You think manufacturers don't deliberately make things hard to repair?




You may be right, but stuff is also hard to repair because:
  1. It's cheaper to build it that way.
  2. They don't care if it's easy for the repairman.
  3. It's cheaper to build it that way.
  4. They design stuff to be easy to assemble, not disassemble.
  5. It's cheaper to build it that way.

I also heard that one reason Torx fasteners are becoming increasingly common is that they
work better on production lines where robots perform the assembly.  When people do it, 
I can imagine they have fewer dropped/stripped fasteners as well.


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## markba633csi (Jun 22, 2020)

That disposal extraction would have been something to see (and hear, using a sawsall) 
-M


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## Chips O'Toole (Dec 11, 2022)

Slotted screws should be banned along with ethanol gas.


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## Bi11Hudson (Dec 11, 2022)

It probably doesn't relate too much to this post, the fastener was a 3/8"(10mm?) bolt. A friend of mine had acquired a Dodge Cummins where the problem was simply a bad starter motor.The bolts for the starter were of similar as noted, just larger. I found a small(?) 12 point 7/16" socket fit the fastener head snugly. The socket was toward the large end, 1/2", a set for specialty hydraulics at the mill. The point is that the "male" Torx head form matches the socket head perfectly. And 12 point sockets fit those heads. Although 12 point sockets that small are rare, they can be found. Most of the 12 point sockets are larger sizes, starting around 9.16".

.


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## Parlo (Dec 12, 2022)

Are they the standard self tapping screws used to fix metal roofing? They have a male "torx" type head cover made from plastic that is used with a 12 point socket.


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## Jake M (Dec 12, 2022)

Torx is just a brand name.  They're standardized in ISO, DIN, and JIS at least, almost surely most if not all others.  Hexalobular Internal (or real close to that) is what we call "Torx".  Hexalobular external never picked up that name in casual use, and I've got no idea if the original "torx" has anything to do with the inverted ("external"?) torx, but you can find "E" sockets, "E-torx" sockets, etc.  Like Kleenex, that particular trade name belongs to somebody, but anybody in the world can make a tissue, free and clear.  Same with hexolobular (torx) fasteners.

What made them popular initially is they were (about) the first fastener that would sit squarely on the driver while it was put together with specialized production tools on an assembly line.  You can load a screw up on a screwdriver, or load a bolt up into a socket, on the production line tooling, and rail 'em home under power.  And when you're done, they don't stick at all, so you can release your power tool.


As for kitchen and bath fixtures designed to handle water, which are not resistant to water....  Yeah, I don't know about that....  I think if we (collectively, the US) stopped buying such things, there wouldn't be so many of such things.


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## Mitch Alsup (Dec 13, 2022)

Production lines are optimized for putting a product together, not for taking it apart (at any point in its future.)


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## Chips O'Toole (Dec 14, 2022)

That's what I'm complaining about. But you can put things together with ordinary Torxes, so there has to be another explanation for using the ones with the extra user-defeating device.


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## Winegrower (Dec 14, 2022)

Well, a few years ago I bought an inexpensive (around $10) little kit of maybe 40 or more different stub driver tips that fit a quarter inch holder.   They are all marked (T25, etc), includes the secure type with the post in the center, and a bunch of stuff I’ve not encountered, but I’m ready if I do.


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## Chips O'Toole (Dec 14, 2022)

Watch out for fasteners in deep holes. Tamper-proof kits with tips you can change can have tips that are too fat to go down into holes.


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