# Looking to get a 3D printer soon.



## Flyinfool (Jan 19, 2020)

I am looking to get a 3D printer in the very near future, likely this month yet.
I have been watching many reviews on YouTube. The common theme is that everyone praises whatever they spent their money on.
I am looking to spend up to $400 for the base machine, and will get upgrades over time.
Some of the upgrades I will plan for in no particular order are; Dual Z screws, Dual (or more) extruders, drive for filament on the head, not away on the frame, 110VAC bed heater, ability to replace extruder with a small spindle, be able to replace extruder with a laser diode.

Some of these options I may have in the initial purchase.

I was about ready to pull the trigger on the Tevo Tornado, but I have tried to contact them with some questions and not received an answer or even acknowledgement of being contacted. If they will not respond to make the sale, what communication will there be when I have issues down the road.

I did not really have a second choice lined up. There are so many different brands, So many are clones of something, and many are clones of clones. I do not know that that is a bad thing as the clones all seen to have open source firmware based on either an Arduino or a Raspberry PI, while the originals do not.

I am so cornfused.


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## middle.road (Jan 19, 2020)

There he goes down the wabbit hole - Quick someone throw him a line!


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## Flyinfool (Jan 19, 2020)

Dat pesky wabbit........ Leaving holes all over for me to fall into.


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## Chewy (Jan 20, 2020)

Here are links to some latest threads.








						New to 3D printers
					

I know nothing about what I'm going to ask!  There, got that out of the way.  I do 2D in Draftsight, years ago it was AutoCad lite.  I tried 3D with AutoCad 14(?) and that didn't go anywhere.  Currently playing with Tinkercad. Hoping that will work. As far as printers go, I will probably go with...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				











						Total Newb, Rushing Down Another Rabbit Hole!
					

i had a chance to see a 3d printer, a little too close. it captured my imagination, but thrust the spear of doubt upon my thoughts. how can i 3d print something??? i have experience with motor controls and plc industrial thingy's- but i have no experience in g-code or co-ordinate multi-axis...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




The first is me asking about 3d programs for the printer.  The second is the post that caught my attention. I am planning to get $800 Prusa and I was told about the $400 Prusa.  Looking forward to reply's about this.  From my research the Prusa is the way to go. $400 and upgrade along the time or $800 and get it all right out of the box and then maybe add multi spool capability later on. Am playing with Tinkercad and Fusion360 right now.  Have a big bunch of things I want to make. As soona as I can getting the files made up, I will get the printer.   Charles


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## brino (Jan 20, 2020)

Yep, 3D printing is a big world......I spent months in "analysis paralysis" mode.

Then finally realized that if I did not just jump in:
1) the landscape of printers would change (rendering all my research "out of date") , 
2) I could be in that state for a year, and
3) the bonus I got that I decided to spend on it would be spent on something else.

So I jumped in.

I had the budget for a high-end, pre-assembled unit.
We were printing within an hour after opening the box.
I do NOT regret the decision.
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/finally-made-the-jump-to-3d-printing.62834/post-517849

-brino


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## Pierre52 (Jan 20, 2020)

Having been living down this rabbit hole for 3 years now, I am having some difficulty in understanding how you arrived at some of your upgrade options.

Affordable 3D printing can be sheeted back to one person. In 2005 Adrian Bowyer came up with the concept of REPRAP (a self replicating 3d machine) and the concept of making his designs and ideas freely available to anyone who wanted them (Open Source)  For anyone wanting to get into the world of 3D printing I would strongly recommend watching a couple of excellent interviews with Adrian on You Tube (One by Tom Sanladerer and one by "The 3d Printing Nerd").

There are a number of companies in the world that embrace the concept of Open Source such as Prusa research, E3D Online, Octoprint, Marlin, Duet 3D and more recently Creality.  There are also a number of companies that take the original open source designs, modify them slightly and then sell them to the world as closed source designs mostly Chinese such as companies like Tevo and  Anet.

Going further down the rabbit hole I would recommend doing some research on Joe Prusa and the products of E3D Online.

An effective 3D printer design is all about rigidity, and repeatability (sound familiar). The print nozzle/s need/s to be constantly moved in 3D space with a precision greater than 0.01mm.  Unlike metal machining though it is an additive process that means machines can be built from much lighter materials.  Your concept of adding a spindle is one that many have tried but with less than stellar success through this very factor of structural rigidity.

One of your upgrades mentioned moving the extruder to the print head. While this makes it much easier to print flexible materials such as nylon it adds considerable mass and inertia to the print head that then requires a stronger structure and slower move speeds.  3D printing is a slow process and this slows it down a lot more.
In the same area you mention dual Z screws as an upgrade. I would suggest that this is simply a machine design consideration/compromise and definitely not an upgrade.  Moving 2 stepper motors in perfect synch is relatively easy but getting the hardware to follow suit can be problematic.

Many consumer level 3D printers have a bed size typically about 8" square and a heated bed powered from a 12v DC supply with a current draw of about  10-15amps.  Larger beds require more power and when you get up to about 12" square you get into the realm of needing a mains power supplied heater element.  However, this again is a function of initial machine design (bed size) and not an upgrade.  Like buying a mill or a lathe you need to have a careful think about the size of things that you plan to make and then purchase a machine that matches your requirements.  If you think in terms of print time, a 7" x 3" x 1" block is going to take about 7 hours to print.  Some people are printing stuff that take several days.

Welcome to the rabbit hole .

I would suggest that you have a look at the Ender3, Prusa Mini and Prusa I3 Mk3s.


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## middle.road (Jan 20, 2020)

_"analysis paralysis" mode_ <--- LMAO, I like that line. Ain't it the truth? You ought to trademark that.



brino said:


> Yep, 3D printing is a big world......I spent months in "_*analysis paralysis*_" mode.
> 
> Then finally realized that if I did not just jump in:
> 1) the landscape of printers would change (rendering all my research "out of date") ,
> ...


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## MikeWi (Jan 20, 2020)

Yeah, you have to consider the source with some of these reviews. Teaching Tech is pretty good at calling it like it is. If there's a problem with a printer, he'll say so, and he's reviewed quite a few.



Pierre52 said:


> One of your upgrades mentioned moving the extruder to the print head. While this makes it much easier to print flexible materials such as nylon it adds considerable mass and inertia to the print head that then requires a stronger structure and slower move speeds.  3D printing is a slow process and this slows it down a lot more.


I can not disagree more. There are many options for direct extrusion out there, and it does not need to slow you down. I personally can print at 200mm/s with PETG (which is darn fast) and others on my forum have gone up to 400mm/s. It's all about tuning, and working within the machine's capabilities. Note that speed is dependent on both your acceleration, and the size of the print, and to really get those high speeds, you'll need a 32bit mainboard, and different firmware, namely Klipper.



Pierre52 said:


> In the same area you mention dual Z screws as an upgrade. I would suggest that this is simply a machine design consideration/compromise and definitely not an upgrade.  Moving 2 stepper motors in perfect synch is relatively easy but getting the hardware to follow suit can be problematic.


This is not that bad either. In fact, one of the top printer designs out there, the Voron2 uses* 4 Z stepper motors*, one at each corner! That said, there are many designs, and after-market kits to that use one stepper and a belt to drive both Z screws.



Pierre52 said:


> Many consumer level 3D printers have a bed size typically about 8" square and a heated bed powered from a 12v DC supply with a current draw of about  10-15amps.  Larger beds require more power and when you get up to about 12" square you get into the realm of needing a mains power supplied heater element.  However, this again is a function of initial machine design (bed size) and not an upgrade.  Like buying a mill or a lathe you need to have a careful think about the size of things that you plan to make and then purchase a machine that matches your requirements.  If you think in terms of print time, a 7" x 3" x 1" block is going to take about 7 hours to print.  Some people are printing stuff that take several days.


10" is becoming more typical and some go larger. Also 12V is largely considered under-powered now. Too slow to heat up. 24V is what I would look for and while an mains heated bed will be faster, it also requires additional hardware such as an SSR. Meanwhile, my 250mm square 24V bed can get up to 245C in 3 min.s  Plenty fast.



Pierre52 said:


> Welcome to the rabbit hole .
> I would suggest that you have a look at the Ender3, Prusa Mini and Prusa I3 Mk3s.


Yeah, like he said.  Lots of options out there. Prusa is nice no question about it, but I consider it to be over-priced. OTH, if you don't want to spend time fiddling with the printer, and learning how to upgrade, it could be a good choice, and it already has a system ready for multi-material printing.


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## Flyinfool (Jan 20, 2020)

OK some of the thoughts on my choices. There are parts I want to make that are 10.5 x 11 inches (266.7mm x 279.4mm) . This is why I was looking at the 300 x 300 bed size.

Some of the reviews that I have been watching mention the the Z with a single drive is fine when the machine is new, but it will loosen up over time and the dual Z will help. I have not decided if I will go with dual steppers or a belt drive system, I can see advantages and disadvantages to both.

The Tevo is a clone of the CR10 which is a clone of the Prusa. It uses a common motherboard, the MKS Gen L 1.0, there are a lot of different firmware's that can be loaded onto it, It has plug in drivers for future upgrades, and has an empty channel for future upgrades. Like the dual extruder.

I will be after a dual extruder eventually so that I can print solvable supports.

I am not after the spindle attachment to try to make a milling machine out of it, More for light engraving to make PCBs without the nasty chemicals. It only has to push a .062 or 1mm end mill thru copper that is .001 inch thick.

The laser attachment was to make reed valves out of .005 thick spring steel by using the laser to remove etch resist and then chemically milling the parts.

3D design software I am not worried about, I am a design engineer and have been using Inventor at work for around 15 years. I will just have to learn some slicing software.

I am sure there are a lot of variables that I have not even thought of yet, but that gaping wabbit hole is calling my name.


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## Flyinfool (Jan 28, 2020)

HELP ME I'M FALLING............

Dat wabbit hole done caught me and I'm falling right in.........

I just pushed the buy button and a printer should be here early next week.


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## cjtoombs (Jan 29, 2020)

I have a Creality CR-10 that should fit in your budget and has been a very good printer.  As far as the options you list wanting to add, I will give you my take on them based on my experience and knowledge of my printer:
1.  Dual Z drive, you won't need it
2.  Dual extruders, this is a nice option for printing soluble support materials.  I'm not pursuing this because I generally don't print things where cosmetics are a primary requirement, so if I need to clip off support material and it leaves some blems, that's not a big problem for me.
3.  Non Bowden extruder, this would probably be good if you need to print a lot of flexible filament prints.  I have printed flexible filament on my Bowden extruder CR-10, you just have to play with the print speed to get it to print.
4.  110V print bed heater, havn't needed it, plan to do some printing with nylon and I think the current one will meet my needs
5.  Spindle, I haven't seen a 3D printer yet that looks strong enough to do any milling in anything heavier than foam, so unless your plan is to carve foam then this is probably a waste of time
6.  Laser, there are people who do this, but I would not recommend it.  A laser that can do anything on a CNC machine will be non eye safe and is a danger to yourself and others without the proper enclosures and interlocks.

What I do recommend for updates is a heated enclosure (I ordered my laser cut enclosure and added a heater and thermostat) and all metal hot end (for higher temperature materials) and a hardened nozzle (for carbon and glass filled materials).  I paid 385 for my CR-10 and the options have cost about 300 since then.  It has a large print area and does a good job.  It is a no frills printer, so no auto bed leveling, dual extruders or any of the fancy stuff.  Good luck and enjoy.  I've used mine to do a lot of organizing fixtures in the shop and plan on making machine parts and electrical boxes with it as well.  I've also dabbled in lost PLA casting, but the burnout was not complete and the casting failed.  I am going to retry it with ABS and dissolve it out with acetone before burnout and pouring.  They really are a great addition to a metalworking shop.


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## Flyinfool (Feb 3, 2020)

Woooooo Hoooooo!!!!!
Its here. It is still in the box untill I finish getting the bench set up where it will live. I have to finish running the electrical, for outlets and lighting. Then I can start building.


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## 7milesup (Feb 4, 2020)

sahweet


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## middle.road (Feb 4, 2020)

/me tosses some carrots in the general direction of Cudahy, Wisconsin.


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## Cooter Brown (Feb 4, 2020)

Some the biggest problems you will have 3D printing are the Filament absorbs water from the air ruining the filament, so it needs to be stored in a box full of desiccant. The angle that the filament feeds into the extruder needs to be as straight as possible or you will have feed issues. Don't buy cheap Filament its already full of water and needs to be dried in the oven at about 180 degrees for 8 hours..... I had a Tevo Tornado and sold it to a friend....


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## Flyinfool (Feb 4, 2020)

It will be living in my basement with all of my other shop tools, I keep it pretty dry down there. My basement is only 600 sq ft. I have a 100 pint rated dehumidifier for moisture control.


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## middle.road (Feb 4, 2020)

The more I follow this thread the more I am coming to the conclusion that the FlashForge that is in my possession isn't worth the time or effort. . .


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## coherent (Feb 5, 2020)

Personally I wouldn't make multiple extruders a priority. I have dual extruders on the Qidi Tech printer I have and I rarely use both. Maybe that's just me and others will chime in, but most of the things I print only need one color etc. Then again I don't print much that isn't a piece or fixture that's more of a part than toy or just something to look at or amuse, so color etc is rarely even a consideration. I thought of building one of the kits when I was looking, but it was nice to just order one that was pretty much plug and play so I could quickly get up and running. There's enough of a learning curve and tweaking required already to please those who enjoy the building side of hobbies to keep them happy.


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## MikeWi (Feb 5, 2020)

The moisture issue depends a lot on the type of fillament, and the brand. My PETG has been sitting unprotected for 4 months now and still works fine for example. It's made by Hatchbox and they claim it's not affected by humidity. This is supposed to be the opposite for PETG, but I have to say it's been fine. 

+1 on no multi-extruders. That's a whole 'nuther can of worms and you want to get some skills acquired before you tackle that.


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## Flyinfool (Feb 5, 2020)

It will be a while before I delve into the multi head. As I learn to use what I have I might just decide there is no need for it. But it is nice to know that there is a feasible upgrade path if I do need it. I have no plan for multi color, but would like to do multi material. Such as the water soluable support material, Or the effect of a softer over molded compound for things to held in the hand.

I am hopping to assemble and get it running this weekend.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jun 30, 2020)

As I have been researching printers the last week....I came across this video from the infamous Mr. Clough. I'm pretty confident there are other ways to pull off the 2 tone text...but this has got to be easier/faster? I just see talk in here that it's really not needed, for me, whatever James is using in the video my sparks my imagination. How much more work/time is it with a single nozzle (extruder)? This is MOSTLY for my wife, but I'd like to be able to make some me stuff on it..
Clough 2 tone


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## 7milesup (Jun 30, 2020)

Prusa makes a Multi Material Unit that adapts to their printers.  It is pretty cool.  My buddy has one and loves it.  
Prusa Multi Material Unit upgrade for existing Prusa printers

You could search for some videos on that one if you would like.


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

You can adapt the prusa mmu to other printers as well, just takes a little more work.  I've had 2 prusa printers (a mk2 and mk2.5 that's now a totally modded haribo) as well as an mmu.  It's great for somethings, but you'll find that printing multiple colors/materials is nice but rarely needed.  I sold my original MK2 and bought a creality cr-x it's a slightly larger printer that prints 2 different colors, but not very good for multi material.  Having a prusa mmu and a dual cr-x, I find I rarely use more than one color.  The purge towers slow things way down and waste material.  There are other mods that can be done to help (purge bucket and assoc. Gcode mods), but it still takes more time and material than a one color/material print.  The only thing I use multi material for now is When I need to print something with a lot of supports and use pva for the supports.  Temps are on the high end for pla but it works.   I dismantled the mmu and used the steppers for my mpcnc last year, then 4 month ago, dismantled the mpcnc and everything is sitting in boxes in my garage waiting to become an mmu again, just haven't needed it.  Just an FYI.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 1, 2020)

Like the 5 colors ready to go..9-10 weeks out though and I saw "VAT" which leads me to think overseas... but I'll do some research. Thanks man!


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Like the 5 colors ready to go..9-10 weeks out though and I saw "VAT" which leads me to think overseas... but I'll do some research. Thanks man!


Everything prusa takes time.  I waited 6months for my mmu.  I love prusa, but have out grown them and if I ever do another 3d printer, it will be a scratch built.  At the moment, my haribo is setup for petg and my crx for pla, works for %99 of my needs, but I've also got the haribo for softer materials and the cr-x for pva supports when needed.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm looking at the creality CR-10s for$ 449 right now, again....I've no idea WTH im looking at.


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> I'm looking at the creality CR-10s for$ 449 right now, again....I've no idea WTH im looking at.


If it's your first printer, the community around the printer is far more important than the printer.  Buy one with a very active owner/mod community and there will always be someone to help you.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 1, 2020)

Uhh....I'm sorry, isn't that what you guys are here for??


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Uhh....I'm sorry, isn't that what you guys are here for??


I've got a heavily modded prusa mk2.5 that has maybe 10 parts from the original and a cr-x that has a very small user base.  When people ask me what's a good first printer I used to always say prusa mk 2,2.5,3..... But now I usually say creality ender 3 and now ender 3 pro.  They're cheap, there are tons of after market parts that are also cheap and most importantly, there are thousands and thousands of them out there.  They print good out of the box and with some simple mods can be made to print even better.  I've never owned one, but do loosely follow the hobby.  However, there may be other better options since I don't follow as closley as I used to, but it's hard to beat their community for the price.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 1, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> I'm looking at the creality CR-10s for$ 449 right now, again....I've no idea WTH im looking at.




Join the club, I've been following 3D printers for 10 years and the only thing them getting cheaper has done is make what I don't know more obvious as it becomes more of a reality that I could actually get one.  


The two I keep looking at are the Ender 3 (cheap) and Prusa Mk3 (not cheap but supposedly very user friendly). I figure if I wait long enough a 3rd go to printer for noobs will be released and make the choice that much more difficult for me.


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Join the club, I've been following 3D printers for 10 years and the only thing them getting cheaper has done is make what I don't know more obvious as it becomes more of a reality that I could actually get one.
> 
> 
> The two I keep looking at are the Ender 3 (cheap) and Prusa Mk3 (not cheap but supposedly very user friendly). I figure if I wait long enough a 3rd go to printer for noobs will be released and make the choice that much more difficult for me.


If you never intend to modify the printer, get the prusa.  If however you like to live on the bleeding edge and tweak everything, get the ender 3 pro.  When you're done changing everything on it out, you'll have spent about what a stock prusa would cost, maybe a bit less and have a great printer that you know inside out.


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

Also, keep in mind, everyone will be moving to 32bit so you'll have to either do a board upgrade or get a new printer eventually.  This is probably still a year or maybe two out but the writing is on the wall.  Plenty of aftermarket 32bit options out there for both the mk3s and the ender3 pro, but upgrading the mk3s will take you out of prusas well manicured ecosystem.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm with you Aaron, but I feel like waiting for the better /easier version is like chasing the wind. This has got to be a daily occurrence in that field. Maybe it's time to rip off that band aid. Also, I have been running Fusion360 for a little over a year and have no practical purpose for it...maybe this?


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## Chipsky (Jul 1, 2020)

Figured I'd jump in with my personal experience. I have (currently) six printers and they run 18-ish hours a day.  I've owned many Creality machines but over the years have evolved my production to solely Prusa MK3's.  Not only are they user friendly, but they're almost bulletproof.  Their support is 8/10 as well.  I have nothing bad to say about Creality or their products, but I'd put them in the tinkerer's category; you'll likely want to make upgrades very quickly. To that end, there is a vibrant community for support and no shortage of people selling upgrades.

There was some mention of the new Prusa Mini... I purchased two of these and ended up sending them back.  They were not (are not yet) reliable enough for me to put them in my print farm. Specifically, they have filament feed issues and the sensors are spotty.  I need to be able to run at least 3-coils through a machine without failed prints... and they couldn't get close.

If you're wanting to say below $400, i'd definitely pick a flavor of Creality. If you have the budget, I'd recommend a Prusa.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2020)

^^^Wow^^^   That is pretty cool Chipsky.  I have the Mark 2 that I upgraded to a 2.5s and as you mentioned, it just runs.  Period.   I would like to get a Mk3 because of the 24volt system they run on.   My buddy has one and it is sooooo quiet.

Thanks for chiming in.  I would love to ask what you print in your print farm but that might be proprietary info.


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## Chipsky (Jul 1, 2020)

Some of it is proprietary, as I do job-work for local companies, but I also do scale work for my hobbies that turned into a side hustle.  The hobby work is for 14th scale radio control construction equipment and 24/25th scale dioramas. I do some 10th scale, but not as much because it's a cut-throat market.  In addition to the filament, I also have three SLA printers for doing resin work.

Agreed. I don't have MK2's anymore, but remember the sound... the MK3's are whisper quiet as long as they're maintained well.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2020)

Thanks for the reply.   I have considered getting an SLA for my hobby also and maybe turn it into a little side gig if possible.  I fly large RC aircraft and helicopters and there soooooo much one can do with a 3D printer.  Instrument panels and such are sought after.  I was actually thinking last night that if I had a SLA printer I could make a custom floor for my AS350 helicopter.  So much to do, so little time.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 1, 2020)

So you are recommending PRUSA MK3? Price isn’t a big concern, like to keep it below $800 if possible.


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## Chipsky (Jul 1, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> So you are recommending PRUSA MK3? Price isn’t a big concern, like to keep it below $800 if possible.



That would be my recommendation for someone who wants to get into printing with minimal tinkering/upgrades later on. Like I mentioned, the Creatlity machines and some others have great followings and are solid machines, but more than likely they'll also be one of your ongoing projects.

Either way, I would recommend getting a kit, just so you learn about the machine.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2020)

Chipsky beat me to it.  Get the kit.  It is fun to put together and Prusa's documentation is superb.  You will better understand your printer too.  
BTW, I do almost all of my printing with PETG.  The last order I made with Prusa I got some of their orange and a dark metallic red.  
Also, to get you started with some ideas I made some table slot covers for my mill, a switch bracket for a light on my mill, tool holder holders that snap onto my lathe backsplash and many, many other useful items for the shop.  Even printed an orange Kubota keychain for the key in my tractor.  I think I pulled that one off of Thingverse. Everything else I draw up in Solidworks.


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## Chipsky (Jul 1, 2020)

First thing I printed was another printer... the Prusa machines are open source.


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

Printed the spitfire on my prusa and the mpcnc on my cr-x


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

The spitfire is now wall art, but I have a full set of parts for a second one when I get around to building it.

I had pretty good results in wood with the mpcnc but I wanted to use it for aluminum and that was just too hit it miss.  That's what moved me to the atlas lathe and now the pm-30mv.......

The yellow and blue chess set was made for a friend on the haribo/mk2.5s while the blue and white one was made about 4 or 5 yrs ago on my first 3d printer (rigidbot).

Lots of pics, but every post is better with pics. 





I use onshape for 3d design.  Not as robust as fusion but free and more importantly, simple and powerful enough for my needs.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 1, 2020)

Can you (anyone) get a finish straight off the printer that isn't so rough? That seems to be the way I see MOST come out. Now I do see may things Clough42 makes, and they look pretty smooth. I don't BELIEVE he is doing sanding and such, so I am curious if there is  way/material/technique.


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

Not sure what part you


GunsOfNavarone said:


> Can you (anyone) get a finish straight off the printer that isn't so rough? That seems to be the way I see MOST come out. Now I do see may things Clough42 makes, and they look pretty smooth. I don't BELIEVE he is doing sanding and such, so I am curious if there is  way/material/technique.


Not sure what your looking at, but if it's the blue chess pieces, that finish is because the rigidbot was a very very early printer and I believe I printed it with 0.3mm layer heights.  You can reasonably go down to 0.15mm or possibly 0.1mm but it double or triples the layers required and therefore the time.  For truly smooth layers you need sla or abs and acetone bath (not recommended).

The airplane skin turned out far smoother, but your always going to see the layer lines in fdm prints.  There are some multi $1k fdm printers that can do 0.05mm but not worth it from my perspective as a hobbyist.


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## Chipsky (Jul 1, 2020)

I've made some relatively smooth parts... headlight assembly for a 1/14th scale Peterbilt truck. Tiny one is a radiator for a matchbox car.


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## acruxksa (Jul 1, 2020)

Chipsky said:


> I've made some relatively smooth parts... headlight assembly for a 1/14th scale Peterbilt truck. Tiny one is a radiator for a matchbox car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it's doable, but the chess pieces are 3" tall and I printed 32 of them even at 0.3mm layer height it took 3 or 4 days to finish.  Each section of the spitfire was printed at 0.2mm layer height and the larger pieces take about 18hrs each.  For parts the size your showing, I'd go sla and have no layer lines.  It's a trade-off.  If I printed the plane or the chess set at 0.1mm it would look very smooth but take a month...........

Based on the size of those parts, I'm guessing your using a smaller nozzle diameter?  0.2 maybe?  Best part about these printers is they are quite versatile and each user can customize them to their needs.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2020)

Chipsky said:


> I've made some relatively smooth parts... headlight assembly for a 1/14th scale Peterbilt truck. Tiny one is a radiator for a matchbox car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Were those printed on your Prusa?  If so, what was your layer height and nozzle size?


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## Chipsky (Jul 1, 2020)

I do those parts with the SLA now and they're almost identical, aka no layer lines.  Those were done with a 0.25 nozzle at 0.1 layer height.  On the other end of the spectrum, some of the things I print take about 16 hours at 0.2 layer height.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2020)

Ok, that is stinkin' cool.  I googled some of the construction equipment that you were talking about.  OMG.  I have too many hobbies but those RC crawlers are damn cool.  I showed it to my wife and she did not seem impressed, mostly because I like to spend money, LOL.  Funny.... I have been into RC since I was 14 (40 years ago) but really had no idea your world was as extensive as it is.  I do like my scale helis though.  I flew professionally for 30 years so still have that aviation bug.


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## Chipsky (Jul 1, 2020)

I agree... very cool. The construction equipment is all hydraulic these days, which makes it expensive, but what hobby isnt?  I make parts for these as well.  It's a niche, but I make things for myself and sell to others if they see and want.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2020)

There is a high probability that my wife is going to kill me.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2020)

Totally hijacking this thread but one more post from me.....
The 4 blade Bell 429 is well over 20lbs.  7 minutes of flight time or so.  5.5 ft or so rotor span.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 1, 2020)

Yeah, I wasn't really talking about the chess pieces...I just see that layered look a lot of printed things on the internet. *That dumpster is an excellent finish*. Is that doable by any normal, off the shelf equipment I would buy?


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## Chipsky (Jul 1, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Yeah, I wasn't really talking about the chess pieces...I just see that layered look a lot of printed things on the internet. *That dumpster is an excellent finish*. Is that doable by any normal, off the shelf equipment I would buy?


I would say its definitely possible with a decent machine but may take some fine tuning in your slicer.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Yeah, I wasn't really talking about the chess pieces...I just see that layered look a lot of printed things on the internet. *That dumpster is an excellent finish*. Is that doable by any normal, off the shelf equipment I would buy?



There are many factors that go into a print.  The dumpster was printed at a .2 layer height.  That is .2mm, not inches of course.  Everything in the printer world is metric.  Not sure if Chipskey used a .25 or a .4 nozzle.  .4mm nozzle is "standard" but I have smaller ones too.  I have done printing with .25 and .3mm nozzles.  It slows down the print speed and increases print time but usually increases print quality.  I say usually because there are many factors that go into a print including layer height, travel speed, retraction speed, and print temp just to name a few.  Do not let that overwhelm you though.  Like anything it does take some time and some practice.  
One interesting thing about having a quality 3D printer is once the first couple of layers are down, it is pretty much leave it until it is done printing.  The first layers are critical to a print though.  That can take a little bit of messing with initially but again, once you know what you are looking for in that first couple of layers, it will become second nature.  Once the first layers are down, very rarely have I ever come back to find the print messed up.


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## Chipsky (Jul 2, 2020)

7milesup said:


> There are many factors that go into a print.  The dumpster was printed at a .2 layer height.  That is .2mm, not inches of course.  Everything in the printer world is metric.  Not sure if Chipskey used a .25 or a .4 nozzle.  .4mm nozzle is "standard" but I have smaller ones too.



For my production work, its typically standard 0.4 nozzle and layer heights between 0.1mm and 0.2mm (varies by piece and scale). I will add that my printer profiles are very much tailored to the print and my design files are specific to the limits of the machine.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 2, 2020)

Chipsky said:


> I would say its definitely possible with a decent machine but may take some fine tuning in your slicer.


Slicer is the software the printer uses if I'm not mistaken? I brought my wife into the purchase process and she "found a great deal" on Amazon...Creality Ender 5 Pro 3D upgrade v1.15. Iknow that name has been dropped a more than a few times on HM, so I was okay with it. Half what I planned to spend. I'll get my feet wet, honestly I want somewhere to put all the Fusion 360 projects I've been doing for the last year. I would like to move more into the CAM now that my feet are wet in the CAD.


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## Chipsky (Jul 2, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Slicer is the software the printer uses if I'm not mistaken? I brought my wife into the purchase process and she "found a great deal" on Amazon...Creality Ender 5 Pro 3D upgrade v1.15. Iknow that name has been dropped a more than a few times on HM, so I was okay with it. Half what I planned to spend. I'll get my feet wet, honestly I want somewhere to put all the Fusion 360 projects I've been doing for the last year. I would like to move more into the CAM now that my feet are wet in the CAD.



Yes, the slicer creates the GCode your printer will use. You load in your design file (STL, etc.) and depending on your layer height "slices" your model so the printer can build it.  This is a super simplified explanation of what is happening. While most printer manufacturers and slicers have defaults that will give you decent prints, as you gain experience, you'll tweak these for the machine, filament type, environmental conditions, etc.


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## Buffalo21 (Jul 2, 2020)

brino said:


> I spent months in "analysis paralysis" mode.
> -brino




brino,

”analysis paralysis”, is that akin to pre-buyer’s remorse (you have not bought it, yet you still feel some what screwed)??


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 2, 2020)

I guess Fusion 360 does the slicer aspect now. I am playing with it as well speak. As always, I really need the CNC equipment to see what's really happening....A few more days. I am bummed I didn't get the PRUSA MK3, hopefully apples to apples in the manner I will use.


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## 7milesup (Jul 2, 2020)

Cancel the order and get the Prusa Mk3.  Easy enough to do but it is going to be $350+ more.
One thing I noticed with the Ender as soon as I looked at it was the fact that it only has one Z drive motor.  Prusa, and others, have a Z drive on each side with rails.  Not sure if that is going to be and issue or not but I am not a fan of cantilevered build plates.
Anyhow, it will get you started.

Edit.... I use Cura for the slicer although Prusa has PrusaSlicer that you could download too.  I find that one very easy to use and I believe it might work with other printers but you would have to look into that.


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## brino (Jul 2, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> ”analysis paralysis”, is that akin to pre-buyer’s remorse (you have not bought it, yet you still feel some what screwed)??



It's more that there are too many variables!
Many of the variables also aren't fully understood.....before jumping in I really couldn't picture if I wanted a 0.5mm or 0.4mm nozzle.

Plus it's moving sooooo fast....if you take a month to research a few variables in depth, then there are new models of printers available.

I decided I just had to jump in; and i am glad that I did!

-brino


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## MikeWi (Jul 2, 2020)

Regarding the coarse looking finish on those chess pieces, part of the issue is you're seeing places where there's a slope and that always makes the layers more obvious. You really can get some amazingly smooth surfaces with stock equipment Prusa or not. It just takes a little tuning. ABS plastic and some others can be smoothed further using solvent vapor, but I don't bother with that.

3D printing is a lot like machining in that it's easy to spend the money on the equipment, but it takes some time to learn the skills. I totally agree that Prusa is perfect as a turnkey solution. There's little to do in terms of upgrades, and you can focus on learning everything else. OTH, I'm a tinkerer, and I learned so much upgrading my Ender 3 and don't mind that I spent nearly as much in the end. It was worth it for the knowledge and expertise I gained.

Regarding the slicers: Any of the slicers will work for your printer, and there are a lot them! All with strengths and weaknesses, but all the good ones are free, so when one has an advantage for what you're doing, use it, and change to a different one when you need to. No need to be married to one slicer. That said, I tend to stick with Slic3r++ (now renamed to SuperSlicer). It's Prusa slicer on steroids, and features pioneered on Slic3r often end up in Prusa's version later on. 

One important PSA: Stay away from Simplify3D. It's out of date, poorly supported, and way too expensive ($150) for the limited abilities it has.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 2, 2020)

That has been a huge part of my internal debate between the Prusa and Ender printers. I spend way more time tinkering with stuff than actually making stuff as it is, which has had me leaning towards the Prusa. Of course the miser in me likes the price of the Ender. The comments in this thread really push me towards the Prusa kit. Nothing stops me from later buying an Ender or other printer if I feel like I'm missing out on the tinkering aspect. I already know I'm eventually going to want a resin 3D printer as well at some point.

My main interest is in making 1/24-25 scale model parts. I see the Prusa says it can do 0.05mm layers, would it be able to make an accurate line  of 0,05-0.1mm a couple of mm long and maybe 1mm tall? What about raised or sunken "dots"? One of the things that has been vexing me for years has been trying to make scale 1/4" details like the cooling fins on an air cooled motor or small perforated housings.


Those of you making model parts, are you just using the printer to make masters to then resin cast, or do you directly use the parts you make?


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## acruxksa (Jul 2, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> That has been a huge part of my internal debate between the Prusa and Ender printers. I spend way more time tinkering with stuff than actually making stuff as it is, which has had me leaning towards the Prusa. Of course the miser in me likes the price of the Ender. The comments in this thread really push me towards the Prusa kit. Nothing stops me from later buying an Ender or other printer if I feel like I'm missing out on the tinkering aspect. I already know I'm eventually going to want a resin 3D printer as well at some point.
> 
> My main interest is in making 1/24-25 scale model parts. I see the Prusa says it can do 0.05mm layers, would it be able to make an accurate line  of 0,05-0.1mm a couple of mm long and maybe 1mm tall? What about raised or sunken "dots"? One of the things that has been vexing me for years has been trying to make scale 1/4" details like the cooling fins on an air cooled motor or small perforated housings.
> 
> ...



For reference, when Prusa says 0.05mm layers, they are talking about the height of the layer, not the width.  In practice you will be hard pressed to get a layer width less than the diameter of the nozzle.  ie. a 0.25mm nozzle is going to print a line with a minimum width of 0.25mm.  Most likely a slight bit wider (.28mm - .3mm) to allow good adhesion to the bed or layer below it.  At 0.05mm layer height, it would take 20 passes to get to 1mm tall.  (20 x 0.05mm = 1mm)

If your primary purpose is to print parts/details as small as what you've mentioned above, I'd say you might be happier with an SLA printer, however they are limited in size of the object and require different processing and slicing than standard run of the mill FDM printers.  In the end though, 0.05mm is far easier to achieve with SLA than FDM.   I've thought about grabbing an SLA printer because my kid is always trying to print figurines for various games on my printers with varying levels of success.  Generally he gets good results by scaling them up to double their normal size.  ie. 1.5" tall rather than 0.75" tall.  Part of that is that I like my 0.4mm nozzles and in fact often use 0.6mm nozzles, so they aren't optimized for smaller scale items.  But another part of it is that small detailed prints turn out better with SLA and always have.   That's not to say you can't achieve good results with a traditional FDM as you've seen by several previous posts here.


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## acruxksa (Jul 2, 2020)

The Prusa MK3s is essentially good to go out of the box (once built.....yes get the kit), but at double the cost of an ender 3 Pro with some simple mods (BL Touch, all metal hot end, polypro build plate, 3d printed upgrades).  As I said many posts ago, If you want a printer to just print and don't want to mess with it, get the MK3s, if however you intend to upgrade the printer and tweak it, save some money and get the Ender 3 Pro.

Eventually you will end up in the same place with either................................a second or even third printer that does things the other one can't.


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## Pierre52 (Jul 2, 2020)

MikeWi said:


> Regarding the coarse looking finish on those chess pieces, part of the issue is you're seeing places where there's a slope and that always makes the layers more obvious. You really can get some amazingly smooth surfaces with stock equipment Prusa or not. It just takes a little tuning. ABS plastic and some others can be smoothed further using solvent vapor, but I don't bother with that.
> 
> 3D printing is a lot like machining in that it's easy to spend the money on the equipment, but it takes some time to learn the skills. I totally agree that Prusa is perfect as a turnkey solution. There's little to do in terms of upgrades, and you can focus on learning everything else. OTH, I'm a tinkerer, and I learned so much upgrading my Ender 3 and don't mind that I spent nearly as much in the end. It was worth it for the knowledge and expertise I gained.
> 
> ...



Mike have you actually used Simplify 3D or is that just a hearsay statement?

  I started with Cura some years ago and struggled to get good prints.  I then switched to Simplify 3 D and started to get some really good results.  I have since tried both an up to date version of Cura and Prusa Slicer 2 but ended up reverting back to Simplify 3D.   The Simplify 3D website also has a really good troubleshooting guide that is free for anyone to use.   Yes there are some issues with the team at S3D but my copy of the slicer still does everything and more that I need from it.

I guess it is like asking the question "Which  (insert product type here) is best?"   You will always get a range of opinions.   IMHO  Simplify 3D has been worth every one of the $150 I spent on it.  YMMY.


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## Janderso (Jul 2, 2020)

That flyinfool make anything yet with the 3D printer?
It's fun watching you guys get into this


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## Janderso (Jul 2, 2020)

acruxksa said:


> Eventually you will end up in the same place with either................................a second or even third printer that does things the other one can't


Well said, this applies to lots of things.....Might as well step up and save money.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 2, 2020)

I actually have very little interest in the 3-d printing, I DO however have interest in putting the g-code (via Fusion360) I have been writing/designing for the last year, to test. My wife has some interest, so this will make her happy (she picked it out and I told her I'm footing the bill) If for unknown reasons, this lights my fires, I'll go to the PRUSA....but I'm a metal guy. How about the metal printers, the technology there yet?
So Super Slicer is the way to go? Supposedly the slicer can work with Fusion 360.


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## MikeWi (Jul 2, 2020)

Pierre52 said:


> Mike have you actually used Simplify 3D or is that just a hearsay statement?
> I guess it is like asking the question "Which  (insert product type here) is best?"   You will always get a range of opinions.   IMHO  Simplify 3D has been worth every one of the $150 I spent on it.  YMMY.


When I started printing, I couldn't figure out Cura very well, and Simplify3D seemed easier to use. Then I started noticing all the things I couldn't do, and admittedly minor annoyances, like it's extremely poor positioning tools.  I've moved between quite a few since then and go back to Simplify from time to time to just to compare. Frankly it doesn't for me. I would probably have avoided voicing that opinion if it was just me, but it's pretty much overwhelming from the 3D communities I'm on and administer as well. lt works certainly, but there's far better that are free that's all. Simplify3D has done almost nothing since it was first released, while everyone else is growing in features and useability. You should try some of them out.


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## Flyinfool (Jul 2, 2020)

Yes I have been making parts with my Tevo Tornado. 
I have made tool holders for the lathe, some parts for my RC airplanes, And a lot of little parts to fix various broken things around the house.
So far I have made very few mods to it. I have a project coming up that will be 6 big prints taking about 2 days each. I am just waiting for the spool of neon orange PETG to appear in my mail box.


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## acruxksa (Jul 3, 2020)

I've used Simplify3d for several years and really like it.  However, MikeWi is right, it's falling behind.  They've been working on a major update, v5 or something like that, while the current version receives only minor updates.  Rumor is that the next major release is going to come at a cost even to those of us who've already purchased the previous version.

In any case, I went to Simplify3d years ago because cura was laggy and unresponsive and slic3r was either too basic or ridiculously cluttered in advanced mode.  Those issues have been fixed.  Simplify3d is still my go-to because all my profiles are there and it just works, but not enough to justify the cost today.  3 years ago...yes, it was worth it.  Especially if you needed the manual support features.  Today not so much.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 3, 2020)

I downloaded Creality Slicer and Slic3r. Like I said, Fusion 360 works with printers....but I don't know if its a "slicer" or not. I'm really confused all the programs and what each one does....then there are the .stl files, g-code, .exf I feel overwhelmed Hopefully it makes some sense when I get the printer in 2 days.


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## jwmelvin (Jul 3, 2020)

The CAD program, such as Fusion 360, generates the geometry and can output put it as an STL file, which is named for stereolithography and represents surfaces as connected triangles. That generic representation allows other programs to take the STL file and work with the shape you have designed.

A slicer (such as Slic3r) is a program that considers how your printer functions and generates commands for it to build the surfaces in an STL file. So for the FDM-type printers we have been discussing, that means starting at the build plate and laying one layer at a time to build up the model. It may also include extra structure in a layer to support what will come later (like columns of a building being created to support an upper floor). The slicer software thus generates slices for the printer to make. Structural aspects of slicing include: how to treat enclosed space (infill), how many solid rings to draw around each perimeter, how many solid layers at the tomb and bottom of surfaces, slice thickness, support as mentioned above, etc.

The slicer also controls how the printer will make the slices: what temperatures to use for the build plate and print head, what speeds to move the axes, how to use the cooling fan, etc.

The slicer outputs GCODE, which is a partially standardized language for giving commands to CNC machines. It is a text file that identifies commands with a “G” and a number, followed by parameters for the command (e.g., move to a certain position at a certain speed) Actually there are other letters too but the G commands are for primary actions. The printer simply steps through the GCODE one line at a time and does what it says.

hth


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## 7milesup (Jul 3, 2020)

Guns....
I am not sure how well Fusion will work with 3D printers.  As jwmelvin just explained, the slicer literally slices the file and generates the g-code for the printer. 
Fusion will certainly generate g-code, but not sure if it has any slicing capability.  It, however, will certainly generate tool paths for CNC machines and such.  
I started my CAD drawing life with Fusion and really fell in love with it, but then I guy I was working for asked me to come up to speed on Solidworks so I have let Fusion sit dormant for 6 or 8 months, and considering how fast the design team makes changes to Fusion, I may have fallen behind on its capabilities.  I use Solidworks for my drawings and export (save) the file as an STL. I then bring the STL file into PrusaSlicer or Cura to have it processed and then exported as G-code to the printer.
3D printing and CAD drawing are, in my opinion, one of the biggest rabbit holes you could possibly jump into.  The learning curve can initially be steep, especially if one is trying to learn CAD concurrently.  I started in Fusion where I initially struggled and then switched to Solidworks and thanks to my friend I was able to make significant progress.  Once the foundation of CAD design is developed, then it becomes more a matter of just learning the commands specific to the program.
I am also seriously considering an SLA printer.  The Peopoly is one of them https://peopoly.net/ Along with the Elegoo Saturn and the Prusa SLA1, but the Prusa build volume is rather small.  If it was larger, I would have one on order.
Stupid rabbits...


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## jwmelvin (Jul 3, 2020)

Fusion has a post processing module for CNC material removal machines but it is not a slicer. I use F360 and like it quite a bit. I’ve come across some situations that trip it up but mostly is has been great. Especially considering the price. 

For me, fused deposition 3D printing is very useful. Something to remember is that you can also use printed components in assemblies strengthened with metal inserts. Also, not every part has to have the strength of machined metal. 










Each type of machine has a certain design space. Just like you have to consider fixturing and cutting operations when designing a machined part, you must plan the layering build up for FDM parts. Also, it’s an anisotropic process (hoop strength much higher than interlayer shear), which can push a design one way or another considerably.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 4, 2020)

@jwmelvin if I understand you correctly, you use a metal printer? (FDM?) I have downloaded 3 slicer programs now, I guess I'd like to continue designing in Fusion and if it made it all the way to the printer, great! I really don't look forward to leaning more programs, but it sounds like the way it will be. FWIW, there are a lot of F360 videos on YT that are (or appear to me) to go all the way to production. It's of little matter, just me computer laziness. Again, this printer is only so I can see g-code and all the stuff I have been learning in the background, to come to fruition.


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## 7milesup (Jul 4, 2020)

FDM = Fused Deposition Modeling.   That is the standardized term for the type of printer that you are getting that utilizes filament to build the object you are printing.  
Metal printing is a whole 'nother animal, which at this point is outside of most folks budgetary range.  Of course, you can get filament for an FDM printer that has metal infused in it but you will need a hardened nozzle because it will abrade a standard nozzle fairly quickly.  Same goes for carbon fiber infused filament.


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## brino (Jul 4, 2020)

7milesup said:


> I am not sure how well Fusion will work with 3D printers.



On the contrary, Fusion-360 is the only CAD tool I use to generate items for my 3D-printer.

When the model is done in Fusion I select Print -> 3D-Printer, it generates the .stl file that loads into Cura (slicer) that came with my printer (Lulzbot Taz-6). In fact, I have it configured to automatically start Cura and transfer the file. So it is much like printing to paper from any PC application, but with Cura replacing the printer dialog pop-up box (where you would select paper size, 2-sided printing, etc.)
Cura generates the g-code and sends it directly to the printer (if USB cabled) or I put it on an SD card (to make the printer stand-alone or remote from the PC).

-brino


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## 7milesup (Jul 4, 2020)

^^^Brino^^^

Maybe I was not clear in my explanation.  I am fully aware that Fusion can be utilized for generating STL files.  Most CAD programs have that capability.  My point was Fusion does not have a slicer program built into it.  It does have a G-code generator, but when you export a file via STL that G-code generator is not used.  
Fusion utilizes a baked in G-code generator which used to be HSM.  They purchased HSM quite some time ago and integrated it into the Fusion program, thus making g-code generation essentially seamless.  Solidworks also can generate G-code, but ironically it needs an add-on, which is HSM to do so.
So in order to be more clear.... Fusion 360 CAD to STL to Slicer (to generate g-code) to printer either via card or LAN to print.


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## acruxksa (Jul 4, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> I downloaded Creality Slicer and Slic3r. Like I said, Fusion 360 works with printers....but I don't know if its a "slicer" or not. I'm really confused all the programs and what each one does....then there are the .stl files, g-code, .exf I feel overwhelmed Hopefully it makes some sense when I get the printer in 2 days.


Stick with Cura or Slic3r for your slicer.  If you are using a Prusa printer, PrusaSlicer (aka Slic3r PE) is also an option.  I'd steer clear of Creality's slicer (probably based off an older version of somebody elses, but that's just speculation on my part) and didn't know Fusion360 had a slicer.

Simplify3d isn't currently worth the price (it was at one time, just not now), but when they drop their rumored major release perhaps it will be again........hard to say though since the free options are moving quite rapidly.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 4, 2020)

acruxksa said:


> The Prusa MK3s is essentially good to go out of the box (once built.....yes get the kit), but at double the cost of an ender 3 Pro with some simple mods (BL Touch, all metal hot end, polypro build plate, 3d printed upgrades).  As I said many posts ago, If you want a printer to just print and don't want to mess with it, get the MK3s, if however you intend to upgrade the printer and tweak it, save some money and get the Ender 3 Pro.
> 
> Eventually you will end up in the same place with either................................a second or even third printer that does things the other one can't.




You are confirming the impression I had. The last thing I need is another machine where I spend more time working on the machine instead of making stuff. When I just had my Sherline lathe and mill I actually made stuff, since I got some vintage machines I spend most of my time working for the machines.  

As far as my question on the 0.05mm I was mixing my units of measure. I would like be able to print around 0.01" which is 1/4" in 1/25 scale. 0.25mm (or even 0.3mm) should work. Perhaps not scale perfection but many of the fine details are more about impressions than perfection. 12 cooling fins rather than 16 or 18 on the full size is one of those details that only the most obsessive would notice.


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## sru_tx (Jul 4, 2020)

I recently got a 3D printer (late May).  I got a CR-10S.  The pandemic buying had crazy lead/delivery times on almost everything including the Prusa. I bought what was available locally.  I had resisted getting one for years as I couldn't really justify one, i.e., "what do I want to make?".  

Need #1: In January my Precision Matthews lathe had an issue with the threading dial and due to the pandemic issues, they were never able to source a replacement part or cost of a replacement assembly.  Cost unknown.  Delivery unknown.

Need #2: In April, a friend contacted me about prototyping a scupper part for a kayak. Sounded like a Fusion360 learning challenge.

Miscellaneous stuff to be made.

I designed the proto in Fusion 360 and resisting the urge to buy a printer, I sent it out to a printing service.  The service completely dropped the ball and the order went unfulfilled.  I finally decided to take the leap.  I don't regret the decision. I have since iterated the prototype a dozen times, refining each step.  Something I couldn't have done via a service. For my lathe, I designed a worm gear and repaired my PM lathe. Lathe is now working.  (https://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/general-home-machine-shop-discussions.460/post-thread)

My advice:
If you know Fusion, you can design whatever you want or need. Generate the STL file and send it to the slicer program.  However, not everything needs to be designed by you. thingiverse.com is an excellent source of free STL files that are print ready.  No need to CAD something up.  You can get test prints, calibration prints, mods to your printer, and general parts that may be of interest. You can spend a lot of time looking at thingiverse  finding lots of things to print.

Slicer software:
I downloaded a free version of Cura from Ultimaker.  It is very powerful and has done everything that i need for free. Simplify is supposed to be good but so far I haven't needed it and don't want to spend the money.

Printer and support:
I have found multiple Facebook pages directed towards the Creality machines.  Lots of knowledge and help available.  Problem solving on stock machines.  What mods are worthwhile or not. I have done several mods on my CR-10s and am happy with my $410 purchase. Prusa's are supposed to be great but it depends on your budget and timeframe.

I also suggest looking at all3dp.com for good info. 

Lots to learn but there's a lot of help available.

good luck


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## MikeWi (Jul 4, 2020)

Fusion360 Absolutely can be used for slicing STL files for printing, just like Cura and the rest. That said, it's pretty new, and not too many people on my discord are fans yet. I'm sure it will get better with age, but I'll stick with my usual, and use Fusion for design.


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## jwmelvin (Jul 5, 2020)

MikeWi said:


> Fusion360 Absolutely can be used for slicing STL files for printing



Thanks for the correction.


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## 7milesup (Jul 5, 2020)

MikeWi said:


> Fusion360 Absolutely can be used for slicing STL files for printing, just like Cura and the rest. That said, it's pretty new, and not too many people on my discord are fans yet. I'm sure it will get better with age, but I'll stick with my usual, and use Fusion for design.


Funny, I just had Fusion open and was poking around on there a little bit; designing up something quick that I was working on using Solidworks.  I really haven't used Fusion since they changed the UI.
Is the slicer and add on?  I see that there was a slicer "app" for it, but not for 3D printing.  I did not look into this very far though just because I was looking at the new UI more than anything.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 5, 2020)

There looks to be a pretty kick butt calibration project in F360 under samples/additives. Hopefully I can try it out tomorrow, Soon I'm hoping a lot of this stuff starts making sense. Thanks for all of your patience.


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## MikeWi (Jul 5, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Funny, I just had Fusion open and was poking around on there a little bit; designing up something quick that I was working on using Solidworks.  I really haven't used Fusion since they changed the UI.
> Is the slicer and add on?  I see that there was a slicer "app" for it, but not for 3D printing.  I did not look into this very far though just because I was looking at the new UI more than anything.


from https://www.sculpteo.com/en/prepare...-your-file-laser-cutting/slice-your-3d-model/



> Export your file to “*Slicer* for *Fusion 360*” Once you get the final shape of you 3D model, go to “MAKE” and select “*Slicer* for *Fusion 360*”, as indicated by the arrows in the following picture. Then, a box will appear, asking you to select the items that you want to export to the “*Slicer* for *Fusion 360*” software.


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## 7milesup (Jul 5, 2020)

MikeWi said:


> from https://www.sculpteo.com/en/prepare...-your-file-laser-cutting/slice-your-3d-model/



Interesting.  That particular one spells out a slicer for laser cutting.  That is a whole lot different than 3D printing where infill density, speed, nozzle size, temperature of both the hot end and build plate and most importantly, supports, need to be generated to produce a 3D print. 
Have you tried it with a 3D printer?  I am thinking that it would fall far short for 3D printing.
I don't mean to be argumentative but I have a fair amount of experience 3D printing and just don't see the Fusion slicer working with a printer at this point.
Also, producing an STL file is not "slicing".  That is just a format for export.


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## MikeWi (Jul 5, 2020)

Ok, serves me right for trying to find a quick link. I haven't used F360 for slicing yet, because I too don't think it's there yet, and I don't see the need for it.  That said, I'm fully aware of what an STL file is for. 

Here's a youtube link that's more appropriate:


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## AlanB (Dec 13, 2020)

For someone just getting started with 3D printing it is good to minimize the learning curves, so using the slicer that is supported by the printer manufacturer and user community for that printer is often the best choice. It will come with configurations for your printer and common filaments. Since I started this a few years ago the slicers have changed tremendously. I started with a Lulzbot printer and they were using a customized version of Cura which was an excellent starting choice. I later needed some features that (Ultimaker now owned) Cura didn't have and bought Simplify 3D which did offer some improvements but was an additional learning curve and cost. 

When the Prusa Mark 3 came out it offered many improvements over everything else in the under 3k$ printer world like automatic bed levelling, flexible magnetic bed, nearly silent operation and so on. At that time they recommended Slic3r but I used all three programs with the Prusa. Then Prusa really started putting improvements into their Slic3r and renamed it Prusa Slicer. Cura wasn't standing still either, with Ultimaker driving it forward. Ultimately what slicer you use may be driven by convenience or by some feature you need, but Prusa Slicer and Cura have evolved tremendously over the last several years while S3D has failed to deliver some promised major upgrades. At this point I haven't used Cura or S3D for quite awhile as Prusa Slicer has done the job well, and they keep adding new useful features. 

The Mark 3's have been getting updates too and mine has been a real workhorse with thousands of prints made. Buying a Prusa Mark 3S+ as a kit is a good plan, it saves a few dollars but more importantly you get familiar with how it goes together which is useful for upgrades and maintenance. They have recently upgraded it to Misumi linear bearings and a new temperature independent magnetic bed sensor. They keep their motion accuracy for a very long time. You can save money with other printers but most of them use rubber wheels in extrusion V slots which isn't quite the same. I'm building a RailCore which has some advantages but the Prusa will continue to be the workhorse while the RailCore is more of the Ferrari of the fleet. 

I use 3D printing to make a lot of things for the mill and lathe from tools to workholding to prototypes and parts that work with the machined components. I've even replaced some metal parts with plastic and for modest production the 3D printer really shines. It also solves a lot of wife-appreciated problems from custom shower hooks to napkin rings and Christmas ornaments and cute little creatures as needed. 

Happy Printing!


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## 7milesup (Dec 13, 2020)

^^^Very well said^^^


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## jeffkash (Dec 14, 2020)

I got into 3D printing 5-6 years ago with a Velleman K8200 kit that Microcenter was closing out at $250. It has been heavily modified with a new extruder, E3D hotend, bed leveling, 24 volt heat bed,  and 32 bit controller with Marlin 2.0.6. When it prints well it prints well. When it doesn't it REALLY doesn't.

I recently bought a Prusa i3 Mk3s+ kit. Put it together, ran the self test / calibration, and started printing. Night and day difference!

Now I use the Prusa for all my 3D printing but will continue to modify the K8200 because that is what a hobbyist does. Next on the list is dual extruders.


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## frugalguido (Dec 29, 2020)

Ordered my first  printer, a CR-6 SE from Tiny Machines. I figured that them doing the check out and mods would help out a first timer, will see. Really great communication from them, informing me weekly about the units process. Can't wait to try this thing out.


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## Flyinfool (Dec 29, 2020)

Another one heads down the rabbit hole........


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## keeena (Jan 1, 2021)

I also got on the 3D Printer bandwagon a few months ago: Prusa i3 MK3. Its my first 3D printer and seemed to be best value: most complete/turn-key with good support & community. The Creality Ender printers were also on my short list.

I've been really happy with it - there's no end to little odds 'n ends you can make which compliment the hobby. I made a couple of centering plugs for the Edge Technology chuck stop to fit my lathe chucks more precisely, misc clips/brackets, QC toolholder-holders, an insert to catch stringy swarf so it doesn't clog halfway up the shop vac hose, etc...


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## jeffkash (Jan 2, 2021)

I think that you need to determine why you are interested in 3D printing. 

If it is to learn a new technology, experiment with a new machine, and make mastering 3D printing your hobby, almost any machine will do.

If it is to make parts for useful applications, get the best (highest rated) printer you can afford. You can't go wrong with the Prusa i3 MK2S+.

I started with learning a new technology, but when I wanted to make useful parts, I ended up "enhancing" my printer. I probably have more money in my Velleman K8000 with all of my upgrades than my Prusa i3 kit cost. The Prusa is far and away the better machine! 

Do I regret the purchase of the Velleman? No, it served and still serves the purpose of learning. I do regret not purchasing a better machine sooner. The wasted filament, time, and frustration over failed print jobs outweighs the "fun" of trying to make the Velleman into something that it will never be.


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## Just for fun (Sep 23, 2022)

Bringing this thread back to life....

My wife and I are going to buy an The Original Prusa i3 MK3S+ 3D printer, kit form.  I have a few questions before I place the order.

I see there are lots on different filaments, I'm thinking of ordering a 1 roll of PLA and 1 of PETG with the printer.  The cost per roll $28.49 and the extra shipping is $34.00.  Or should I buy the filament somewhere else.  Should I even consider anything other than PLA to start with?

Where is a good place to buy filament?

Should I order an extra nozzle?

How about just ordering the spare parts bundle?

Anything else I should know before ordering?


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## AlanB (Sep 23, 2022)

Great choice.

Prusa has a new in-US company supporting their products - Printed Solid. You can get many Prusa items there at lower shipping cost and faster turn-around. They also have some great filament choices with their Jesse filament.

Prusa filament is great filament but pricey and that's a lot for shipping. I generally pay about $20-25 per kg for filament and get it from Amazon or other US sources generally with free shipping. I would start with more than 2 rolls of filament. PLA is great for most things unless you need heat resistance. PETG is better for heat resistance but a bit harder to print well and colors are limited. 

Spare parts will be important. You will want spare nozzles for certain, and you might want specific tools to make nozzle changes easier as well as cleaning tools. The Prusa spare parts kit is fine, but it is a lot more than you will need in the short run. I've run my MK3 pretty hard for years and have only replaced nozzles a couple of times per year and the teflon tube inside even less often. I lube the rods occasionally with lithium grease and have lots of spare parts but not really had problems aside from the occasional nozzle clog which requires a cold pull or a nozzle replacement to clear up. I keep both real Prusa nozzles and inexpensive third party nozzles on hand and either works fine. I do find the cheap nozzles may have some burrs to remove inside but that is easily accomplished. A few drill bits just under 1.75mm are handy for cleaning nozzles, and needles just under nozzle diameter which is usually 0.40mm. Tool sets just for nozzle work are available on Amazon and elsewhere. A nozzle torque wrench and socket the right size are helpful. It's easy to damage the heat break or wires when servicing the nozzle which is the most common maintenance item on the printer. A spare heat break would also be wise to have on hand, though I don't think I have damaged one yet, but it is quite thin to resist heat flow. If you break the wires a spare thermistor or heater could be needed, I have yet to break those but I do have spares. The Revo hotend  upgrade improves on these things. More on that below.

You'll want isopropyl alcohol 90%+. I would get one or more spare build plates, however they do last a long time, but they can get damaged easily. They have three types of surfaces to choose from. Each has two surfaces that can be printed on.

You may not want to get too many spare nozzles because you might decide to change the hotend to a Revo which uses different nozzles. This is a recently available improved hotend from E3D. It offers easy, tool free nozzle changes with leak-free nozzles that can be changed cold (regular nozzles must be hot-tightened and removed). It has better protection for the wires, heats much faster, and the ability to easily change nozzle diameters is coveted by some. The Revo nozzles are expensive and won't be available from third parties. I would build the printer stock to start with, I only mention this because you might not want to get too many spare parts in inventory until you have decided what you will be using longer term.

People commonly use glue-stick to control adhesion for some filaments. I find Aquanet unscented hairspray to be easier to apply and superior to glue-stick, but that's a personal preference. Depending on which sheet type you are using some filaments like PETG or TPU will over-adhere to the sheet and can damage it when removing the print while others may under-adhere and make spaghetti or much worse. But a very thin coat of Aquanet works to promote the right amount of adherence while preventing too much. I don't apply it every print cycle with PLA it's hardly needed, but my old tired smooth sheet needs a bit of help now and then, and for PETG or especially TPU I want a fairly fresh coating or the print may over-adhere and fail to come off without damage. One can lasts me years, and I print a lot.

A good set of ball-end metric hex wrenches will be appreciated during assembly. A really flat surface will be useful, you don't need a surface plate but that would work, I use a marble end table surface, many use scraps available inexpensively from the local countertop suppliers. Assemble it as square as you can, it will help with printing precision.


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## KyleG (Sep 23, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> Bringing this thread back to life....
> 
> My wife and I are going to buy an The Original Prusa i3 MK3S+ 3D printer, kit form.  I have a few questions before I place the order.
> 
> ...



Filament: From my perspective, PETG is the new standard filament. PLA has a slight edge in aesthetic finish, but PETG makes nice parts with better mechanical properties. But, swapping only takes a moment so it's easy to try both for yourself. I use Overture brand; they sell direct and through Amazon. If an extra spool from Prusa adds $34 to the shipping, buy it elsewhere.

Spare Nozzles: Yes. I bought the E3D Pro Pack, which has a variety of nozzle sizes and materials. The Prusa will come with a .4mm nozzle. I use a .6 most times, and switch back if I'm running something small and detailed.

Spare parts bundle: I wouldn't bother with it. The kit does come with some spares of common hardware.

Anything Else?: I'm really happy with my i3, and I hope/think you will be too. I have found it reliable and pretty easy to use.


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## great white (Sep 23, 2022)

Petg is certainly the darling of the fdm world right now.

I’ve run a couple spools and its very tolerant of less than ideal setups, adheres well, prints well, doesn’t have issues with shrinkage and warpage, isn’t overly effected by drafts, doesn’t have water problems and its nearly as mechanically strong as abs.

Its not perfect for all applications, but its pretty close.

I’m a bit of a “dinosaur“ myself. I still prefer printing with abs, but you need to get pretty much everything perfect with abs or its going to shrink, warp and do all manner of strange things. An enclosure is a must when printing abs….


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## 7milesup (Sep 23, 2022)

@justforfun.   Congratulations on buying a Prusa printer.  You will love it.

I would agree with everything @KyleG said, except I still prefer the 0.4mm nozzle.  In the last two weeks, I messed around a bit with a 0.6 nozzle hoping to get faster print times utilizing the PrusaSlicr (ver. 2.5.0+) with the new Arachne engine baked in.  I really didn't notice a huge difference like I was expecting, but then again, I have stuff to print now and did not want to spend much time tweaking settings.
I just ordered some eSun PLA from Amazon today  (*eSun from Amazon*.)  PETG is my normal go-to, but I decided to have some PLA on hand for printing hardware storage containers.  

If you have any questions, ask away or shoot me a PM, I would be glad to help you out.


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## cjtoombs (Sep 24, 2022)

PLA is easy to print with and good enough for most parts.  It's not temperature stable and will warp and shrink at high (120 f or so) temperatures.  PETG is a great filament, but you need to put down some gluestick on the Prusa build plate, or it will stick so hard it will tear the surface off (I found this out the hard way).  I use Hatchbox PLA, and I don't remember the PETG brand I ordered.  I've also printed flexible TPU and glass filled nylon on it.  Prusa's filament is good, but a bit pricey, so you might want to look around.  Be prepared for a bill from Fedex for the import duties, mine was assembled and the duty was around ~$200.  They are a great printer, way more plug and play than some of the more basic printers (I had a Creality CR10 before this one).  If you're going to be building it, it would be a good time to put in a hardened or ruby nozzle if you plan to print with carbon or glass filled filament.  I had some trouble when I installed mine and had to re-print one of the parts in the head assembly after it was melted by the hot end.  I have a hardened steel nozzle in mine now and it prints PLA and PETG fine.  Another thing to look into is an enclosure.  It keeps the temperature stable but also keeps dust off the machine as well.  I built the one from the Ikea Lag tables that's on their blog.  I think they may sell an enclosure now.


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## 7milesup (Sep 24, 2022)

1.)  PETG is a great filament, but you need to put down some gluestick on the Prusa build plate, or it will stick so hard it will tear the surface off (I found this out the hard way).
*I have never used gluestick for PETG, but I have a smooth build plate. *

 I use Hatchbox PLA, and I don't remember the PETG brand I ordered.  I've also printed flexible TPU and glass filled nylon on it.  Prusa's filament is good, but a bit pricey, so you might want to look around.
*There are literally dozens upon dozens of filament brands available.  Most are available on Amazon for reasonable prices.  If you want some really strong nylon specialty filament, I would recommend Taulman 910.*

 Be prepared for a bill from Fedex for the import duties, mine was assembled and the duty was around ~$200.
*You exceeded the import limit.  It specifically states on Prusa's website during the order process what that limit is.  A Prusa kit with an extra build plate is under that limit.  *

  If you're going to be building it, it would be a good time to put in a hardened or ruby nozzle if you plan to print with carbon or glass filled filament.
*I would not spend the money on a hardened nozzle unless demanding filaments are in the foreseeable future.  I have been printing for years with ABS, Nylon, PETG, and PLA with the standard 0.40 nozzle.  I even print the Taulman 910 with no issues.*

Another thing to look into is an enclosure.  It keeps the temperature stable but also keeps dust off the machine as well.  I built the one from the Ikea Lag tables that's on their blog.  I think they may sell an enclosure now.
*Prusa does sell an enclosure but at $350+, it is spendy and probably not worth it.  There are a lot of ideas on the web for enclosures.  I have been meaning to make one for mine out of 80/20, but haven't got to that point on my project list.*


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## AlanB (Sep 24, 2022)

PETG on the smooth PEI is fine.. Until one day it sticks like tar to feathers. Then the build plate surface will be ruined. I only let this happen once. That is what the Windex, glue stick or Aquanet prevents. I prefer a misting of Aquanet to the clumsy uneven rubbing of a glue stick - spray painting vs crayon. TPU is another 3d printing material that can stick to PEI so well that the PEI is damaged when removing the print. A sacrificial layer protects the print surface from damage when removing the print.

There is no need for hardened nozzles unless one is printing with abrasive filaments (those containing carbon or glass fibers, glow in the dark particles, etc). Hardened nozzles cost more and most are not as thermally conductive which reduces print quality and can reduce print strength. I don't use them when they are not needed. Some folks use them all the time, either way works as long as you calibrate for the temperature loss.

Ruby nozzles are quite expensive. Definitely reserved for as-needed. Diamond and tungsten carbide also. Brass or nickel plated copper nozzles are excellent for most printing, short of abrasive filaments.

Nozzle changes aren't trivial, but they aren't terribly difficult with the right tools and technique. The Revo hotend system makes nozzle changes trivial by combining the heat brake and nozzle into a fingers only (no tools) changeable setup. E3D makes a drop-in replacement for the V6 that works in the Prusa MK3. They have brass nozzles from 0.15 to 0.8 mm and hardened steel nozzles will be out next month. All nozzles are the same length so Z adjustments won't change when swapping nozzles. With the standard V6 the Prusa comes with you must tighten the nozzle hot, and the heat brake is quite fragile and easy to bend or snap off. It is best to do with a torque wrench which you can purchase or there are some printable ones. Enough torque is needed to prevent leakage but not so much as to ruin the heat break. The unprotected heater and temperature sensor wires are easy to damage as you hold the hot heater block with a wrench or pliers. With the Revo nozzle the heat break and nozzle are pressed into a unit and one just has to thread it in until it stops with fingertip pressure, which can be done cold with no danger of leakage later on. It makes changing nozzle diameters routine, so you can make a part strong and shorten printing time with a larger nozzle and then swap to a smaller one for the next print.

If the V6 nozzle is not properly tightened the melted filament can leak out between the heat brake and the nozzle. This often results in a "blob of death" mass of plastic encasing the heater block, nozzle, wiring and everything else in the vicinity. The repair usually involves replacing the entire hotend as removing the solidified plastic without damage from the hotend components and wiring is impractical.


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## cjtoombs (Sep 24, 2022)

Mine stuck to a smooth build plate and tore a chunk larger than a quarter up from the metal base.  But you do you.  The plates only 45 dollars or so.


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## AlanB (Sep 24, 2022)

Yes, I had a similar experience with a PEI on glass plate printer before the Prusa. I've even seen glass plates broken with too much adhesion. You can replace the PEI surface on a steel sheet, this is a bit of work but cheaper than the replacement steel sheet. Prusa has smooth, satin and rough surface steel sheets that have different adhesion properties with different materials. There are also aftermarket sheets. The choice of sheet surface can make a difference as well. The printer can remember the Z offset for each steel sheet, this varies and needs to be properly calibrated for a good first layer. There's a menu setting to let the printer know which steel sheet is in use.


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## Just for fun (Sep 24, 2022)

So, when you guys are talking glue sticks, you are talking about the standard kids glue stick?


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## AlanB (Sep 24, 2022)

Yes, but not all glue sticks work, and not all glue sticks tell you what is in them, so it can be hard to be certain.

Here's some discussions containing more detailed information. https://3dprinting.stackexchange.co...spray-work-as-an-adhesive-for-abs/11183#11183

There are also purpose-made chemistries for adhesion, they may be better but are often expensive. Unscented Aquanet is very cheap and works, but it is not available world-wide.


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## KyleG (Sep 25, 2022)

I use the smooth PEI build sheet that came with my printer, and haven't had any over-adhesion issues with PETG yet. Prusa's documentation suggests cleaning with Windex rather than isopropyl if you print PETG. Apparently the residue from windex is an adequate release agent. I wipe down the platen once or twice a year when I get enough dust and schmootz on it that prints don't stick well any more.

I do run my finger over the line where the printer purges from time to time. The oils from your hands make peeling the little purge stripe up easier.


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## Just for fun (Sep 25, 2022)

I ordered the Prusa kit and 1 extra sheet yesterday.


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## AlanB (Sep 25, 2022)

There are many products and techniques to handle adhesion, and many recommendations from many sources. Experiment and see what works best for you.

I too followed the Prusa instructions with Windex for PETG. The results were variable, though it did help enough to avoid damage to the PEI but I didn't like the lack of consistency - some things were over-adhered and difficult to remove while others would not stick properly during printing, and it needed cleaning and re-coating frequently. I decided to try the often recommended unscented Aquanet (after testing the clumpy and uneven coating of glue stick) and it worked much better for me than any of the others, and it works for many filament types so I don't have to have a bunch of different solutions for the filament types I use.

Prusa cannot really recommend Aquanet because it is pretty much a USA only product and other hairsprays often have ingredients that prevent success. Windex and Glue stick are more universally available. Glue stick and Aquanet have basically the same active ingredient which has some adhesive properties that are unusually well suited to 3D printing. Windex is basically a weak contaminant, if you've ever tried it on a camera lens it leaves a bunch of junk behind. It doesn't provide adhesion which old tired PEI needs. It works better on new PEI, but the trick is getting the right amount of anti-adhesion from it. Glue stick and Aquanet provide a sacrificial adhesive layer which is more consistent. It is hard to get glue stick perfectly thin and smooth, but many people prefer it. Aquanet mist can be very evenly applied, and it doesn't take much. So a can lasts a very long time. And it is very inexpensive.

In the process of testing I learned to never touch the printbed with fingers (flexing the sheet or using a polished scraper to remove prints and bits) and the Aquanet coating would last for many print cycles. Finger oils contaminate the surface and cause variable adhesion problems. Since I don't touch the printbed I get a dozen or more print cycles between re-misting with Aquanet. It shows visible dust over time but the prints don't show any effects from the dust so I ignore it until I do a full cleaning cycle (rinse with water which dissolves the Aquanet and carries away the dust etc, and follow with isopropyl wipe down, dry and then re-mist) which isn't very often.

I'm still using the original smooth PEI sheet from the initial MK3 pre-order over four years ago. It has produced many thousands of prints, I've long lost count. I used to have to periodically use acetone, or brass wool, or very fine sandpaper as the adhesion was getting weak on this old smooth PEI and some types of prints were not sticking well. Aquanet solved these issues better than any of the recommended Windex or other surface preparation techniques like acetone and sanding that I tried. And it is much easier to do.

I still haven't emptied a full Aquanet spray can since only a light misting is needed, and not very often. I hardly use any isopropyl alcohol anymore, I don't need to clean between each print. Just get any material off the bed by flexing and clean up with the scraper, (never fingers) and print again. I use a stiff paint scraper, but I polished the edges and corners so it doesn't scratch the build plate PEI surface. I also have a plastic spatula for sweeping any stray bits of plastic off the bed easily and never contaminate the printing side of the sheet with finger oil. I do touch the tabs, edges and the underside when removing it for flexing, but never touch the printing area of the top surface (just like never touching a good camera lens). This technique saves me a lot of time and chemicals. I used to go through a lot of isopropyl alcohol and paper or blue shop towels, now I rarely use any. It's a different approach to handling the printing surface.

I don't mist the sheet with Aquanet directly while on the printer, I move the steel sheet away from the printer for misting, no need to get the Aquanet on the printer mechanics and frame.

However you choose to do it - happy printing!


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## AlanB (Sep 25, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> I ordered the Prusa kit and 1 extra sheet yesterday.


Now the wait begins.


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## Just for fun (Sep 25, 2022)

The web site said 3 to 4 weeks.  I was going to order an extra nozzle from them but they some sort of shipping deal with DHL for the kit and 1 extra plate.  If I was to add 1 extra nozzle for under $6 bucks it added over $20 bucks to the shipping.


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## AlanB (Sep 25, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> The web site said 3 to 4 weeks.  I was going to order an extra nozzle from them but they some sort of shipping deal with DHL for the kit and 1 extra plate.  If I was to add 1 extra nozzle for under $6 bucks it added over $20 bucks to the shipping.



That's strange. I think I ordered an extra sheet and nozzle with mine, they both easily fit within the standard package so there's hardly a difference in weight and no difference in volume. Shipping calculators are not really capable of figuring much out.

You can get genuine E3D V6 nozzles many places and I've had good luck with aftermarket nozzles from Amazon that had plenty of good ratings. Cheap enough to gamble on a few to play with if you are so inclined. I don't think I needed to change my first nozzle on the Prusa for a year or more, as long as the filament doesn't have junk in it to clog it there's little need to. A cold pull usually clears the nozzle but sometimes they are extra stubborn and a new nozzle fixes it so easily.


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## Just for fun (Oct 16, 2022)

cjtoombs said:


> *Be prepared for a bill from Fedex for the import duties, mine was assembled and the duty was around ~$200.*



My printer is on the way and should be here by the end of this coming week.  I did have to pay a $47 duty fee.  The cut off is $800 bucks, with the increase in the cost of the printer it put cost over that, even for the kit.


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## AlanB (Oct 16, 2022)

Interesting. Didn't know that. When the XL comes out it's going to be a much larger hit. Is it a fixed percentage, or ?


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## 7milesup (Oct 16, 2022)

@Just for fun Well, this is ironic... The main board in my Prusa just died.  Arrrggghh.  Don't be concerned though, the board in my printer is completely different that yours, plus, I have had mine for five years and over 190 days of continuous accumulated printing.


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## Just for fun (Oct 16, 2022)

AlanB said:


> Interesting. Didn't know that. When the XL comes out it's going to be a much larger hit. Is it a fixed percentage, or ?


I'm not sure, and right now I'm not sure where I saw the $800 limit.  I think it was during the checkout section.  I'm not sure how they calculated the charge, I can't come up with it.  But here is how it breaks down, Import Duties $26.01  Duty Tax $17.00




7milesup said:


> @Just for fun Well, this is ironic... The main board in my Prusa just died.  Arrrggghh.  Don't be concerned though, the board in my printer is completely different that yours, plus, I have had mine for five years and over 190 days of continuous accumulated printing.



Bummer Neal, Hopefully it won't take long to get a new board.


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## AlanB (Oct 17, 2022)

Printed Solid in the US carries most Prusa spare parts.


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## 7milesup (Oct 17, 2022)

AlanB said:


> Printed Solid in the US carries most Prusa spare parts.


Thanks for the tip @AlanB .  Unfortunately, they do not stock the Rambo Mini board, most likely due to the fact that it is the generation prior to the Mk3.


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## AlanB (Oct 17, 2022)

They are just getting going with Prusa so not too surprising. It is probably a fairly rare failure item. Best of luck with your repair. I have seen folks upgrade to the reprap boards or even klipper solutions instead of another 8 bit board. It's more effort but there are various gains.


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## 7milesup (Oct 17, 2022)

AlanB said:


> They are just getting going with Prusa so not too surprising. It is probably a fairly rare failure item. Best of luck with your repair. I have seen folks upgrade to the reprap boards or even klipper solutions instead of another 8 bit board. It's more effort but there are various gains.


Herein lies the issue... I would love to do more with my printer and have been intending to add a Rasp pi or Orange Pi to enable wireless printing along with being able to control/monitor prints remotely, but time always seems to be short, and thus my lack of research stops me.  Maybe I could categorize it as "analysis paralysis".   I would love to do something different with the Rambo-mini board, but I ordered it from Prusa since they had it in stock.  I could have ordered a board from AliExpress for 1/5 the cost, but I am not entirely confident in getting a functioning board, plus the shipping for AliExpress will be much longer. 
Isn't the Klipper firmware for a mainboard such as the RepRap board?  If I went that route, does it do mesh bed leveling and that good stuff ("good stuff" = technical term)?  If you have advice on a different board with the above-mentioned capability of wireless file transfer, video monitoring, etc. I would be all ears.


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## AlanB (Oct 17, 2022)

I've set up Octoprint on a Pi 3B for my MK3. It works great, was easy to set up and I can't imagine fiddling with SD cards anymore, and it easily supports a camera. I ran Octoprint on an older Pi model B with the Lulzbot Mini and that worked fine, it did require a network cable or USB Wifi dongle and a camera would have been a heavy load for that old Pi. The Pi's that have Wifi built in make that easier. Octoprint will run on a Pi Zero but they don't recommend it (many people still do it). It works ok as long as you don't put a camera or too many plug-ins. Anything stronger than a Pi Zero will handle Octoprint quite well. The Zero 2 W would be great if we could get them. A Pi4 is not needed for this, but of course it will work, and any memory size model is fine. Compute module 4's are also fine and are a bit more available but require a carrier board to get to the I/O, and wifi is optional, plus there are many memory configurations but any of those will work. Just this weekend there were some CM4's available and they didn't sell out for hours, Pi's usually sell out in 30 minutes or less when they are available. The Pi3's are excellent and can be a bargain in today's market.

On the next level we have a fork in the road. There is the Reprap highway, and the Klipper highway (there are some other routes but less interesting for this discussion). The Duet boards are at the top of the Reprap food chain, and there are cheap clones of those, as well as Reprap firmware ported to other boards. It's a good way to go, and does just about everything one would want to do. It has it's own interface setup for the web and print queueing, etc. Config is text files. It is starting over in terms of getting your printer to print well, and I don't see as much community choosing this route, but it is a solid choice.

The other highway is Klipper which has been really popular lately and has been growing faster. Klipper is a dual processing architecture and popular setups are a Raspberry Pi for the high level motion planning and user interfacing, while the low level timing and controls are done with the printer microcontroller. The microcontroller can be any of a large set of compatible boards from 8 bit to 32 bit. Klipper generates the binary that you load once into the microcontroller, and all the configuration is done in text based config files in the Pi (you don't have to keep re-loading the microcontroller). The Pi does all the trajectory and motion planning computations and feeds the low level instructions to the controller via a serial link. There are three commonly used web interfaces - Mainsail, Fluidd and Octoprint. So you get to choose. Mainsail, Fluidd and Klipper are said to run fine on even a Pi Zero, Octoprint requires more CPU resources due to it's implementation and design so a Pi3 or Zero 2W or better are recommended. Pi4's work fine, even the small memory models.

Octoprint with plug-ins have more options and features than Mainsail and Fluidd. But Mainsail and Fluidd are lighter weight and do most everything, and they are improving. You can use more than one if your Pi has the resources.

Since you have ordered the Rambo from Prusa you have a couple of efficient choices. One is to run Octoprint on a compatible board and connect it to the Rambo with USB. It's probably easiest on a Pi, but it can run on other boards or a PC. That's probably the simplest and wisest path to follow at this juncture. The other option is to run Klipper on a Pi and load the Rambo with the Klipper firmware. This is much more involved and steps away from all the wonderful Prusa support, and it has a much larger learning curve. Doing this on your only printer would be adventurous.

I am building a Duet based printer (Railcore) and a Klipper based printer (Voron Trident) and I'm keeping my Prusa fairly close to stock (at the moment it has a Dragon hotend, but that changes almost nothing else as it's a V6 drop-in), plus it has the Pi with Octoprint. I think it is best to experiment with a second printer and keep one solid reliable primary printer working - I might need a part at any time, never want to be without one working machine. I also keep spare parts on hand so I can fix the Prusa no matter what. 

I've spent too much time researching and collecting parts, I need to get those last few more parts and get these projects finished - before another better upgrade comes along...

Happy Printing!


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## 7milesup (Oct 17, 2022)

@AlanB That was a very nice explanation, and I appreciate the time that you put into your response.  The statement that you "never want to be without one working machine" is so true.  Although this path that I am on with getting my Mk2.5s back up and running is somewhat expensive ($135 just for the Rambo-mini), at least at that point, I will have a familiar and (hopefully) reliable printer.  I will be going through your response more thoroughly tonight and see what other questions I may come up with.
Again, I really appreciate your time!


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## WobblyHand (Oct 20, 2022)

I am about to join this club. 

Just ordered a Prusa MK3S+ kit.  They claim only a 1-2 day delay before shipping.  We shall see.  Been wanting one for quite a while.  Since I learned FreeCAD this year, I will be able to design stuff and print it.  Got lots of little things to make.

I will have to set up Octoprint for it.  Currently have a Pi 3B that's unoccupied, (not the 3B+) and a wireless dongle for it.

Edit: 1-2 Weeks.  Must of misread it!  Still better than it was just a month ago.


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## AlanB (Oct 20, 2022)

Welcome to the Prusa MK3 club. Octoprint is a nice upgrade for a 3D printer.

Looks like the 3B has single band wifi, the 3B+ has dual band wifi. So the dongle may not be required. My Octoprint is running on a 3B. I was thinking it was a 3B+ but looking at the pictures it looks like it is the regular 3B model. It runs fine. I did put a USB camera on it at one point and that worked as well. It's a good choice for this usage.


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## Just for fun (Oct 21, 2022)

I received mine two days ago, three and a half weeks.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 7, 2022)

I had to delay the shipment from Prusa for a little bit, but we are now back on schedule.  Was out of town, visiting my youngest daughter who just received a diamond ring.  Was a great weekend.  

DHL tells me the printer will be delivered this Thursday.  Can't wait!  I got the kit, so will have to assemble it.  Should be a fun couple of days.


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2022)

Our daughter was married this weekend. Buying an entire fleet of printers would have been less costly. 

But it was a great weekend as well.

I've resumed work on a Railcore kit that stalled 3 years ago. It is larger and faster than the Prusa MK3 but it makes me appreciate how quiet, compact and light (and simple to assemble) the Prusa is. And going from 220mm to 300mm really makes the printer larger.

Was just thinking about tools to make the assembly job go easier. A flat surface helps to align the frame. I use a Marble round from and old end table, my surface plate is too small. Ball end metric hex wrenches in the smaller sizes. A 7mm socket wrench for the hot nozzle tightening, and something to grab the heater block to protect the thin walled heat break. I ended up getting a nozzle torque wrench from Slice Engineering. Over or under torquing the nozzle is not something one wants to do. 90%+ isopropyl alcohol. A roll of blue shop towels, less linty than paper towels. A couple of spare nozzles and a spare heat break and some tools to clean them like 0.40mm needles. A silicone heater block sock or two. A few rolls of PLA in various colors for making fun items. A roll of PETG and TPU for experimenting for higher temperature and flexible materials. A hardened steel nozzle if any abrasive material printing is planned. They will provide a glue stick but I prefer Aquanet unscented extra hold for extra build plate adhesion and to protect the surface against over-adhesion from PETG and TPU. A spare spring steel build plate. As I recall you have some or most of this already, but this may be useful for others reading along.

A useful optional item is a Raspberry Pi for Octoprint (free software). Most any will do but an old Pi3 is adequate, or one of the smaller memory (1-2 GB) Pi4's is fine and those are occasionally available at regular list price from dealers, or perhaps recover one from an old Pi project. You can set it up to start a print from your computer with a click in the slicer, no dealing with moving an SD card back and forth and scrolling through lists of files on the LCD display. The Pi connects to the printer with a USB cable and puts it on the network. You can optionally add an inexpensive Pi or USB camera and check up on printing progress from your computer or phone.


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## atunguyd (Nov 8, 2022)

I have had my 3D printer for about 7 years now. I honestly don't get the octoprint train of thought.

Dumping my file on a SD card and walking across to the printer is really not all that painful. Plus when the print starts I like to be there to watch it and make any micro adjustments to the first layer (through the the baby steps menu). So I am going to be standing infront of it anyway. And print times are so long that the 15s you save by direct printing means nothing on a 4 hour long print. 

From my experience rather take the money you would spend on a pi and spend that on a 24v heating bed. Or on a 24v power supply and hook that up to your 12v heating bed. That was a really worthwhile upgrade for me! 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## 7milesup (Nov 8, 2022)

AlanB said:


> Pi4's is fine and those are occasionally available at regular list price from dealers


Raspberry Pi's are essentially not available.   One of my friends just bought RPi 3 for $130, which was the cheapest one he could find.  I purchased an Orange Pi 3 LTS for $45 a few weeks ago that I will be utilizing in a Voron build that I am going to start.



atunguyd said:


> Dumping my file on a SD card and walking across to the printer is really not all that painful. Plus when the print starts I like to be there to watch it and make any micro adjustments to the first layer (through the the baby steps menu). So I am going to be standing infront of it anyway. And print times are so long that the 15s you save by direct printing means nothing on a 4 hour long print.



I have had my Prusa for 5 years and the SD card slot is worn out.  The bigger draw for the RPi and Octoprint add-on is the ability to monitor a print remotely.  To be able to stop a print remotely if it starts to fail is a big deal, especially when it is a large print and there is a risk of completely covering your hot end with melted plastic.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 8, 2022)

I have a spare RPI3 that's already been flashed to octoprint.  Over the years I had bought a few RPI's as they came out, so I have a couple of them not in dedicated use.  All were bought at ordinary, pre-panic pricing so I can't complain.  Found an old USB webcam that was laying around and got it to work without any trouble.

Connectors have a finite life.  They are rated for so many cycles.  Typically they are not easy to replace or are hard to find with the same form factor.  I don't mind using an otherwise unused older RPI3 to prolong the life of my printer.  If I didn't have any spare PI'S I'd look for an alternative, even an ESP32 controller.  They seem to be available, or maybe a Pico W.  But either would be a project just in itself, unless you can find someone else's git project, where it was all figured out.


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## rabler (Nov 8, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> DHL tells me the printer will be delivered this Thursday. Can't wait! I got the kit, so will have to assemble it. Should be a fun couple of days.


Keep us update on your progress as you get it set up.  Getting a 3-D printer is on my wish list.   I'm pretty backed up with projects so it isn't happening soon, but I'm watching here for hints and ideas.


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2022)

Whatever suits your work style is good. My experience is that the people who are fine with the SD card are those who have never had a good network interface, rarely do folks go back to SD after working with a networked printer. Does one use an SD card with their laser or inkjet printer?

My MK3 is so reliable I never baby step the first layer. Other than once after installing a new nozzle or doing alignment after mechanical work. After that it just prints every time. I do need to make sure the printer is clear and the filament loaded, then I can go fiddle with the slicer and send a print with a click, whether from the same room or from another room. I often start several prints a day, fiddling with the SD card just wastes time and energy for no useful purpose. I start prints from two different computers depending on where I'm working from. Prints take from 30 minutes to 9 hours generally for most of what I print. Once a print is started I occasionally check on progress, either with the camera or just by checking the progress info in Octoprint. Then I know whether I need to go in and remove the print and prepare for the next one. My printer is already 24V and has a heated bed that heats adequately fast, but if other upgrades are more useful clearly do those first. One should check on the printer during the first layer until it proves to be reliable, but the camera allows that to be done remotely. Most any old USB webcam will work fine. One can often buy USB laptop cameras without housings for $20 or less.

Raspberry Pi's are trickling out all the time, they make about 100,000 units per week. I have purchased several at list price in the last few months. If you have an old Pi around it is probably adequate. You can borrow a Pi from an old project and replace it later, use a new SD card and keep the old one for restoring. Big Tree Tech has a Pi replacement CM4 type board that some are using, the CB-1, and a carrier to make it like a standard Pi3. The Pi CM4 boards are more available than regular Pi's and can be used in a carrier or directly in some of the newer control boards like the Manta (for Klipper setups). Several batches of Pi boards were sold this morning at list price from a dealer in Germany. I generally wait for a US supplier and there are at 3-4 that have some boards each week or two. They sell out in 20 minutes so one has to prepare and react, but they are trickling out and the prices are only a little higher than before, usually around $40-50 for the smaller memory models which are fine for Octoprint.

Some people run Octoprint on an old computer, perhaps an old laptop that is not used anymore. It will run on most operating systems. One of the small computers will run it fine, and can drive more than one printer. Those little "mini" machines that are often used in businesses and sold cheaper than scalped Raspberry Pi's on the used market are popular. The Pi Zero 2 W at $15 is excellent, but those are not very easy to find. It's basically a Pi 3 on a half size board, so it can be put right on the printer. A $10 Pi Zero W works too but don't put a camera on that one.

Octoprint requires an operating system like Linux or Windows so not suitable for an ESP32 or a Pico. The pre-built systems including Octoprint and Linux are available for the Pi so those are far and away the easiest to install.


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## rabler (Nov 8, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Raspberry Pi's are essentially not available.


rpilocator.com lists places that have them available on a day-by-day basis. My understanding is they sell out in a few hours. Apparently Raspberry Pi is releasing a few, round-robbin, to hobbiest channels on limited allotment, but they are prioritizing their commercial customers. So yes, essentially not available, but it is possible to get them with determination.


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## atunguyd (Nov 8, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Connectors have a finite life. They are rated for so many cycles. .



Of all the reasons to switch to octoprint I think that would be the least significant . Most SD card sockets are rated for 10 000 inserts. That would mean you would get 5 000 prints out of it. At an average print of 2 hours that would mean nearly a year and a half of continuous printing. I think a lot more would fail than your SD card reader at that point. 



Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## WobblyHand (Nov 8, 2022)

atunguyd said:


> Of all the reasons to switch to octoprint I think that would be the least significant . Most SD card sockets are rated for 10 000 inserts. That would mean you would get 5 000 prints out of it. At an average print of 2 hours that would mean nearly a year and a half of continuous printing. I think a lot more would fail than your SD card reader at that point.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


Perhaps.  

Of course, you are talking about "real authentic" SD card sockets.  Guarantee you that a lot of these sockets are neither real nor authentic.  Counterfeit goods typically have a lot shorter lifetimes.  And counterfeit goods sneak into the supply chain all the time.  Generally speaking, it is not good to rely on connecting and disconnecting connectors often.  Cables and connectors are usually the "things that go bad".


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## Ken226 (Nov 8, 2022)

I bought a wifi SD card.

The SD card stays in the printer,  I connect to it via WiFi with my laptop and add/delete the print files.

Since the card stays in, there's no wear and tear.


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2022)

7milesup said:


> To be able to stop a print remotely if it starts to fail is a big deal, especially when it is a large print and there is a risk of completely covering your hot end with melted plastic.



This recently happened to a friend. A print went bad overnight and ended up coating the hotend and wiring with plastic in a so-called "blob of death". We ended up completely disassembling the printhead and replacing the heat break, heater block, heater cartridge, thermistor, nozzle, heater block sock and bed levelling sensor. We suspect either the nozzle was not properly torqued and molten plastic leaked at that joint, or more likely it was just failed bed adhesion and the model happened to stick to the nozzle and redirect the fresh plastic upwards. Most of the parts were available in a $20 printhead maintenance kit from Amazon but the bed levelling sensor was a separate purchase that took a couple of weeks to get. This was not a Prusa, but it can happen to any printer. It took a couple of hours and over $50 in parts to fix. Being able to monitor the print is advisable.


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## 7milesup (Nov 8, 2022)

atunguyd said:


> t an average print of 2 hours that would mean nearly a year and a half of continuous printing.


I have what amounts to slightly more than half of a year of printing, and yes, my SD socket is failing.  I already have had the board out and messed with it, but I am still having issues with it.  The front display of my Prusa is made in China, as are most things 3D printer related.


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## 7milesup (Nov 8, 2022)

What I am curious about is the draw to Rasp Pi's.   Any SBC board that can run a Linux-based OS can work with a printer.  I ordered my Orange Pi from Amazon for $45 and had it in 3 days.  *Orange Pi 3 LTS*
My plan is to install Klipper as the firmware and utilize Mainsail, Fluidd or Octoprint via Armbian OS.

As a side note, you can run a printer from an old PC or laptop, HOWEVER, it must be 100% dedicated to that process.  If anything starts up and runs in the background while you are printing, the chance is very high that your print will fail.


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## Aaron_W (Nov 8, 2022)

rabler said:


> Keep us update on your progress as you get it set up.  Getting a 3-D printer is on my wish list.   I'm pretty backed up with projects so it isn't happening soon, but I'm watching here for hints and ideas.



Nice thing is they are just getting better / cheaper although the tech has evolved enough now that the year to year improvement is slowing down.


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2022)

7milesup said:


> What I am curious about is the draw to Rasp Pi's. Any SBC board that can run a Linux-based OS can work with a printer. I ordered my Orange Pi from Amazon for $45



For many people the draw is the pre-built Octoprint/Raspbian packages that make building an Octoprint system possible in just a few minutes following a recipe with no Linux experience required. The quantity of compatible software and readily available support for the Pi is significantly greater than other boards. When I have tested other SBCs I have had more bugs, less support and taken more time to get things done. In many cases no amount of time can overcome the poor support and bugs in the incomplete environment of other boards. I would suggest that folks stick with a real Pi unless they have appropriate expertise and are willing to spend extra time on the project and possibly have it fail. For those willing to take the challenge I hope they publish their process and results and this will guide others and show what works and what problems remain. Before embarking some research should show others having success with a particular board and application and reduce effort and risks of failure.

You can get one Pi from Adafruit, they generally release a batch every Wednesday morning about 1130am eastern time. Make sure to get signed up and logged in the night before and meet their requirements such as setting up two factor authentication, watch rpilocator and add it to your basket and check out immediately, they are generally gone in under half an hour. They have had a lot of the Pi4 with 2GB of ram which is excellent for Octoprint. They often have a much smaller batch on Thursday which is probably from the orders they cancelled from the Wednesday batch, they are very strict on their rules.


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2022)

7milesup said:


> I purchased an Orange Pi 3 LTS for $45 a few weeks ago that I will be utilizing in a Voron build that I am going to start.



Which Voron are you building? I'm in the final parts collection phase for a 250mm Voron Trident. I need to finish the Railcore, and get a few more items for the Trident. I have a Pi4 2GB that I got from Adafruit recently that I plan to use with an Octopus controller for it. I started collecting parts some time back and got a set of PIF printed parts for the Trident. I originally started collecting parts for the Voron 1.8 shortly before the Trident was released, so the 1.8 project became the Trident project which I like the design of much better. I have a 1.8 frame kit from LDO but it can be readily modified to the Trident's frame.


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## Just for fun (Nov 8, 2022)

When I got my printer, I also bought a Raspberry Pi 4 2GB kit from CanaKit, and installed Octoprint.  I than put the printer up in the shop, I have to go there to change filament and clean and or change the build plate.  After that I can slice my drawings and send them to Octoprint and on the printer.  I set up a camera so I can check on the process of the print from time to time.  The best thing about this set-up is my wife is happy that I don't have melting plastic in the house.


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## rabler (Nov 8, 2022)

7milesup said:


> What I am curious about is the draw to Rasp Pi's. Any SBC board that can run a Linux-based OS can work with a printer.


My guess is that it is similar to the Arduino framework.  They created an easily bundled product that included hardware and software and has a large user community that has drawn attention and built the user community, feeding a cycle.  Lots of others can jump on the bandwagon, at cheaper prices, by following the same model as the framework now exists. A single board computer with a half-hearted software support environment, where you have to roll you own everything, gets pretty challenging on an individual/hobbyist basis.  I've been there with some TI boards, where you couldn't produce the binaries from the bundled source code.  A true mess to get started.


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## 7milesup (Nov 8, 2022)

AlanB said:


> Which Voron are you building?


I am going for the 2.4r 300mm build.  One of my co-workers, and a good friend, just ordered a kit from *https://voronkits.com/* last Friday.  I plan on sourcing my materials rather than going the kit route.  

All excellent points guys, regarding the Rasp Pi.   It seems that I kept seeing that the RPi was the only option whereas it is not, but I certainly understand having everything bundled in an ecosystem.

Regarding the Orange Pi, the following is a link to one of many that have done it.  Not saying that you should, but there is documentation out there.  *https://blog.vertile.com/article/klipper-3d-printer-firmware/*


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2022)

The Voron 2.4 is very popular, and 300mm is probably the most popular 2.4 size, so availability of parts is good.

I decided to go 250mm since the Railcore is already 300mm and it takes a lot of space and I don't need that large a print volume very often. The Trident is a little easier and lower cost to build, but the differences are not large. For those interested, the 2.4 has a fixed bed at the bottom and the CoreXY gantry is supported by four belts driven by reduction belt drives so it won't drop when power is lost. The Trident has the same gantry fixed at the top and the print bed rises on three leadscrews with independent motors. Both the 2.4 and the Trident do auto-tramming using the 3 or 4 motors and a sensor. Various sensors are supported. Both designs use linear rails and 20mm extrusions and are made to be enclosed and print up through ABS and ASA materials by heating the interior with the heated bed. Voron is a design group that makes these designs and publishes the CAD, BOM and instructions. They don't sell kits or printers.

I haven't heard anything about voronkits dot com. I heard the Voron group was having some trouble with their trademark. I don't know the details, but the Voron design group does not sell kits or printers, so it is not from them.

I would stick with vendors that are on the Voron Discord to be safe. LDO kits have been top notch but they sell out quickly, almost like Raspberry Pi's. My DIY collection for the Trident has a lot of LDO parts kits like frame, motors and hardware. LDO makes a lot of parts for Prusa.

I would have saved money by buying a kit. Collecting parts separately is more expensive with multiple shipping and smaller bulk discounts. There were no complete kits when I started. Now there are a number of them. None are endorsed by the Voron group, they have no control over the kits. The highest quality kits sell out quickly, but even the lower quality kits are getting pretty good. Buying a kit and changing the things you don't like is a good approach for most people. Collecting all the parts is a task.


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## 7milesup (Nov 8, 2022)

All good points @AlanB .   I am looking at sourcing my material because it allows me more control over what I will get.  For example, the kits seem to include a bottom panel made out of coroplast.  I have access to .060 aluminum sheets for free.  If it costs me a few dollars extra, I am ok with that.  The BOM is inclusive enough that I have complete confidence in obtaining what I need.  One item of consideration when I was looking at sourcing vs. buying a kit is the aluminum extrusions.  I have utilized *www.t-nutz.com* for other building needs, which is one of my sources. I am rather adept at sourcing materials/parts, not just for this build but for other projects that I have done. The key is to locate suppliers that have enough of your items in stock, so shipping costs are contained. I should also point out that I have enough machines to do the machining on whatever I need to do 
Good information on LDO.  The one thing that I may purchase from them is the linear rails.


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## AlanB (Nov 8, 2022)

On my Railcore I updated to Misumi rails. At that time the Chinese rails were pretty iffy (3+ years ago). Today the Chinese rails such as LDO have improved a lot and most everyone uses them for 3D printers.

One thing folks have had trouble with is the T-nuts fit to the the extrusion slots. Not all T-nuts fit all brands of extrusion. Perhaps source them from the same place, or somehow insure they fit properly. Some extrusions also don't properly support the linear rails. For example I heard that Makerbeam extrusion slots are too wide for some rails to be properly supported. The Discord is a good place to vet some of the choices if there is doubt, there is usually experience there to draw on.

I think the better panel kits (Printed Solid is what I have) use ACM panels for the bottom and rear, and choices of ACM with acrylic windows or full acrylic panels for front and sides. Coroplast is in the BOM but most kits I have seen don't go with that. DIY builds often use coroplast as it is free after elections. 

The Railcore kit came with polyethylene panels and folks often upgrade those to aluminum sheets. This increases weight and cost and often adds a lot of noise amplification, making the printer very loud. Aluminum doesn't damp well and steppers put out pulses that drive the resonances. I suspect the ACM and acrylic panels are much quieter than aluminum, and may reduce resonances that affect printing at some level. ACM panels are a laminate with thin aluminum outsides with proprietary filler in between. The filler is reportedly polyethylene but there may be more than one type of filler.

There is also a sourcing guide to go along with the BOM, it often has important info that the BOM doesn't detail. The Fusion 360 CAD model is also helpful and the detailed instructions are usually excellent though it varies a bit by model as the newer ones are improved over the older ones.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 9, 2022)

One step closer.  Paid the duty (online) on the printer.  Hope to get the Prusa tomorrow.


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2022)

Progress! I haven't run into duty fees before, but it looks like while complex they boil down to a simple percentage of the total cost including shipping. Approximately what percentage of your total did they amount to?  I am curious because this will be a factor in the XL that I have a deposit on, assuming Prusa actually ships it someday, and additionally that I actually have space left by then for a 360mm size printer. My other Prusa orders were never enough to trigger duty fees. In the case of the XL the options can change the pricing, so one could break it into lower cost parcels but this increases shipping and other costs. Did they also assess a sales tax? So many ways costs are increasing...


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## WobblyHand (Nov 9, 2022)

AlanB said:


> Progress! I haven't run into duty fees before, but it looks like while complex they boil down to a simple percentage of the total cost including shipping. Approximately what percentage of your total did they amount to?  I am curious because this will be a factor in the XL that I have a deposit on, assuming Prusa actually ships it someday, and additionally that I actually have space left by then for a 360mm size printer. My other Prusa orders were never enough to trigger duty fees. In the case of the XL the options can change the pricing, so one could break it into lower cost parcels but this increases shipping and other costs. Did they also assess a sales tax? So many ways costs are increasing...


In my case, the duty amounted to about 4.623% of the total (including the shipping).  Since I live in NH, there is no sales tax.  Your experience in CA will be different.  If I hadn't been reading this thread, I would have been shocked about the duty.  But since I was forewarned, I just paid it as soon as I was notified.


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2022)

I'm sure you are right about CA. Looks like we can't get better leadership here, even though we try.


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## Ken226 (Nov 9, 2022)

7milesup said:


> I am going for the 2.4r 300mm build.  One of my co-workers, and a good friend, just ordered a kit from *https://voronkits.com/* last Friday.  I plan on sourcing my materials rather than going the kit route.
> 
> All excellent points guys, regarding the Rasp Pi.   It seems that I kept seeing that the RPi was the only option whereas it is not, but I certainly understand having everything bundled in an ecosystem.
> 
> Regarding the Orange Pi, the following is a link to one of many that have done it.  Not saying that you should, but there is documentation out there.  *https://blog.vertile.com/article/klipper-3d-printer-firmware/*



I've been looking up the specs for the Voron 2.4, and im liking what I see.  I'm going to be following along with your build progress.

If it works out for you, I may jump on the bandwagon!


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2022)

I'm curious why folks choose the Voron 2.4 over the Trident.


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2022)

Another option on the Raspberry Pi front are the CM4 compute modules. The BTT Manta controller has a CM4 socket. CM4 boards are a bit easier to come by than regular Pi4 boards, and the combination is more compact as the CM4 sits on the Manta board. The CM4 has onboard memory that is better than the SD card so an SD card is not required. The Manta is basically the Octopus reworked to take the CM4. If I didn't already have the Octopus and Pi4 I would use a Manta and CM4, and I may change to it yet. If a CM4 is not available BTT makes a replacement for it (CB1) that is equivalent to a Pi3, and one could always start with that. I was able to get some CM4 boards, they are not off the shelf but when in stock they take much longer to sell out and quantities are not as limited as regular Pi's so you can get several. The CM4 boards are available in many different combinations of memory, eMMC and wifi/no wifi from $25 to $95 retail. For Klipper 1-2 GB ram with 8-16GB eMMC and Wifi is about right and the regular pricing is around $40-50. The CM4 boards can be used on various carriers to essentially be regular Pi4's, or optimized for specific applications.


----------



## Ken226 (Nov 9, 2022)

AlanB said:


> I'm curious why folks choose the Voron 2.4 over the Trident.



I like the non-moving build plate.  

My Flashforge Creator Pro has the build plate moving up and down as the Z axis.

It may not make a difference, but a fixed build plate seems like it would be more rigid.


----------



## Ken226 (Nov 9, 2022)

AlanB said:


> Another option on the Raspberry Pi front are the CM4 compute modules. The BTT Manta controller has a CM4 socket. CM4 boards are a bit easier to come by than regular Pi4 boards, and the combination is more compact as the CM4 sits on the Manta board. The CM4 has onboard memory that is better than the SD card so an SD card is not required. The Manta is basically the Octopus reworked to take the CM4. If I didn't already have the Octopus and Pi4 I would use a Manta and CM4, and I may change to it yet. If a CM4 is not available BTT makes a replacement for it (CB1) that is equivalent to a Pi3, and one could always start with that. I was able to get some CM4 boards, they are not off the shelf but when in stock they take much longer to sell out and quantities are not as limited as regular Pi's so you can get several. The CM4 boards are available in many different combinations of memory, eMMC and wifi/no wifi from $25 to $95 retail. For Klipper 1-2 GB ram with 8-16GB eMMC and Wifi is about right and the regular pricing is around $40-50. The CM4 boards can be used on various carriers to essentially be regular Pi4's, or optimized for specific applications.



What are your thoughts on the Manta mp8?

I believe the Voron 2.4 uses 7 steppers,  so it would need the mp8 board, correct?










						BTT Manta M8P Klipper Controller Board / 3D Printer Control System using CB1/CM4
					

Tired of the Pi problem?  MANTA M8P motherboard is an 8 driver, 32-bit printer motherboard for Klipper firmware. Plug in the core board to run the Klipper firmware, which greatly simplifies the connection between the motherboard and the Raspberry Pi, and saves a lot of money. In the installation...




					west3d.com


----------



## AlanB (Nov 9, 2022)

Ken226 said:


> What are your thoughts on the Manta mp8?
> 
> I believe the Voron 2.4 uses 7 steppers,  so it would need the mp8 board, correct?
> 
> ...



Yes, the 2.4 has 7 steppers, ABZZZZE. If you use a Canbus for the printhead that drives the extruder so only 6 would be driven by the Manta, but still too many for the MP4, so the MP8 would be the choice either way. If no Canbus then all 7 would be from the Manta. The use of Canbus reduces the wiring to the head to just 4 wires instead of about 3 times that normally.

The Trident has one less Z motor but it still requires the M8P even with Canbus. It would be great if BTT made a 6 channel variant of the Manta. That would handle the Trident or the 2.4 with Canbus.

I haven't tried the Manta yet but I see a lot of folks are using it. They are being included in some of the upscale Voron kits as well.


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2022)

Ken226 said:


> I like the non-moving build plate.
> 
> My Flashforge Creator Pro has the build plate moving up and down as the Z axis.
> 
> It may not make a difference, but a fixed build plate seems like it would be more rigid.


Having a flexy moving gantry seems problematic, and 4 Z motors is overconstrained. The Z belt drives are complicated. Clearly it works, but I note that the IDEX dual head work is not being done on the 2.4, it is being applied to the Trident because the gantry is rigid. There is a Trident variant with triple belted Z drives if one wants to get away from leadscrews, but the integrated motor leadscrews have been excellent. LDO even has a taller 300mm variant for those wanting a 300mm Z build height.

The advantage of the moving gantry increases as build size goes up and the build plate gets massively heavy, so printers over 360mm may need to go that way. In printers 360mm and down the rising build plate seems more common.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 9, 2022)

Surprisingly, the MK3S+ kit arrived today!  Well hot diggity!  Got an email at 10:54 am saying delivery was to be between 11 am and 1 pm today.  Delivery was at 11:37 am.  No one bothered for a signature, the box was just placed on our farmers porch.  I came up out of the shop for lunch (not having read any of the emails) and found the box there.  A pleasant surprise.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 9, 2022)

Guess I have to tell my wife about this little purchase.  Was planning to tell her tomorrow - you know, why rush it?  She knows I have been wanting one, so it won't surprise her _that much_.


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2022)

Thank her for the early christmas gift.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 9, 2022)

Told her and lived!  Wasn't that big of a surprise for her


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## Ken226 (Nov 9, 2022)

I ordered an Orange Pi 4 LTS to kinda get my feet wet.  I'll play with it and try to educate myself before I spring for a Voron 2.4 kit.

I did some internet reading and downloaded the manual.

Unless i'm mistaken, the Orange Pi 4 LTS comes with Debian pre-installed on the emmc memory,  and Debian is capable of running Klipper.  

With some luck, that will all turn out to be true.  If so, I should be able to pair it with the Octopus v1.1 board that comes with the Voron kit and maybe it will work?  I hope...


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 9, 2022)

Got up to step 21 in the Y axis tonight.  Putting in the 3 bearings was a fiddly operation, seemed I needed one more hand to do the job!  Got a bit tired so stopped for the night.  Kit seems well made.  There's a lot of labor involved, but it's been a good break from my broken x axis DRO on my mill.


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## Ken226 (Nov 9, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Got up to step 21 in the Y axis tonight.  Putting in the 3 bearings was a fiddly operation, seemed I needed one more hand to do the job!  Got a bit tired so stopped for the night.  Kit seems well made.  There's a lot of labor involved, but it's been a good break from my broken x axis DRO on my mill.




Great. I'm eager to see the finished product!


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## AlanB (Nov 9, 2022)

Hopefully they had instructions to grease the linear bearings before installation. Harder to do later. The original instructions didn't have that for mine. Anytime I hear the balls start to buzz I re-grease them, or periodically for good measure.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 10, 2022)

AlanB said:


> Hopefully they had instructions to grease the linear bearings before installation. Harder to do later. The original instructions didn't have that for mine. Anytime I hear the balls start to buzz I re-grease them, or periodically for good measure.


In the book, there weren't instructions for that.  Mine seemed to have enough grease in them, so I didn't bother.

Finished the Y axis.  The instructions are there, but there are some subtleties I missed.  Like needing every single mm of that belt!  First time I fitted it up it wasn't even close.  Have to say, by the time I am done, there's a lot more than $200 of labor involved putting this together.  Not hard, but really fiddly little stuff and strange assembly positions.  Having a few bears now to celebrate the first axis.


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## AlanB (Nov 10, 2022)

I would use the online instructions rather than the printed book which doesn't have the comments and recent updates that the online instructions add. The book is adequate.

Glad to hear they are pre-greasing the linear bearings. When I got my early pre-ordered MK3 there was only rust preventative oil on the linear bearings and it doesn't last too long, now they recommend a light grease. Early on they recommended oils which were not a great solution. They have instructions now to grease it by putting some on the rails and exercising it, this works but isn't a very efficient way of getting grease past the seals. Proper greasing requires quite a lot of disassembly.

When they say it is a kit they weren't kidding. Building a little CNC machine from a pile of parts does take some labor. About 9 hours or so for most. It is less work than building a Railcore or Voron though.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 10, 2022)

X is done.  But that was not too hard.  I have mixed feelings about the crowd sourced comments.  Are they curated?  It's hard to tell what is authoritative.


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## AlanB (Nov 10, 2022)

I suspect they are well curated. It's a Prusa documentation website, not a social network. The instructions are not community sourced. One can compare the manual to the online and see what differs. The MK3S+ is pretty mature, so I don't expect a lot of change. Mine was early days, and the manuals had to go to print well beforehand so there would have been more value in the updates than is likely today. I have used the online instructions for upgrades and maintenance, and they were good. One of the values one gets for buying Prusa is the support and the online documentation is part of it. They are also very helpful if you have questions for their support staff.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 10, 2022)

Z is done.  However, I lost 4 balls on the left side vertical during assembly.  Might order some bearings, but honest not sure if I need to.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 10, 2022)

Well this one is taking me a while.  Never done a kit like this.  Even installing a full AC system from a box of parts on my truck was easier.  Up to step 51on the E axis assembly.  What a wild mess of cables.


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## AlanB (Nov 11, 2022)

I don't think missing a few ball bearings on the Z will matter, the X and Y bearings are more important. But having a spare set (or at least a few) of new linear bearings is not a bad idea. They are not too costly. I heard Prusa uses Misumi linear bearings which are pretty good quality.. When mine started making noise I got a spare set but after greasing the existing set I didn't install the new ones and print quality seems fine so they are still in the spare parts inventory. So perhaps it is a low priority.

Some of the new printers use a canbus board at the printhead so only 4 wires are needed through the harness. Otherwise there are a lot of conductors needed. Once they are wrapped up and the enclosure closed on the mess it isn't too bad, but if you have to change a heater or thermistor the harness has to be opened and the home-run wire replaced. The Voron's add a connector at the printhead which makes it easier to swap things.


----------



## Just for fun (Nov 11, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Well this one is taking me a while.  Never done a kit like this.  Even installing a full AC system from a box of parts on my truck was easier.  Up to step 51on the E axis assembly.  What a wild mess of cables.
> View attachment 426287



Congratulations on getting the printer and living through telling your wife after the fact.  LOL

I just followed the book; I made a couple mistakes on the way but overall, it went well.


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 11, 2022)

E axis is done.  On to the LCD after lunch and some bears!


----------



## jeffkash (Nov 11, 2022)

7milesup said:


> I am going for the 2.4r 300mm build.  One of my co-workers, and a good friend, just ordered a kit from *https://voronkits.com/* last Friday.  I plan on sourcing my materials rather than going the kit route.
> 
> All excellent points guys, regarding the Rasp Pi.   It seems that I kept seeing that the RPi was the only option whereas it is not, but I certainly understand having everything bundled in an ecosystem.
> 
> Regarding the Orange Pi, the following is a link to one of many that have done it.  Not saying that you should, but there is documentation out there.  *https://blog.vertile.com/article/klipper-3d-printer-firmware/*


I think that there may be a misconception as to what OctoPI is/does. It does not replace the printer firmware


WobblyHand said:


> E axis is done.  On to the LCD after lunch and some bears!


did the spell check change beers to bears?


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 11, 2022)

jeffkash said:


> I think that there may be a misconception as to what OctoPI is/does. It does not replace the printer firmware
> 
> did the spell check change beers to bears?


  Prusa gives you a bag of gummy bears as an incentive to get through the assembly.  The instructions actually tell you to consume X amount of bears after completing each assembly.  The beers will come _after_ a first decent print!  Until then bears.

As far as I know, from my limited reading, the only thing that OctoPi does is give you a way to remotely print and monitor.  At least that is my understanding.  That's fine with me.  Would have been nice if all that was built in, but I am ok with it, since I do have a spare RPI3 and webcam.

LCD is done.  Working on the heat bed and PSU.


----------



## 7milesup (Nov 11, 2022)

jeffkash said:


> I think that there may be a misconception as to what OctoPI is/does. It does not replace the printer firmware
> 
> did the spell check change beers to bears?


Correct. Octopi is a method of running your print.  You can slice with Octopi but I believe it is a plug-in.  Marlin, Kkipper and others are firmware. Cura or Prusaslicr are popular, although the PrusaSlicr is Cura with some more lipstick


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## AlanB (Nov 11, 2022)

I don't think Prusa Slicer is Cura, it is based on a different code base (Slic3r) that predates Cura. But they do share some code such as the arachnid engine recently. SuperSlicer is based on Prusa Slicer. There are a number of other slicers out there as well, but these are the most popular.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 11, 2022)

Starting the electronics assembly.  Think that is the last section.  Starting to dislike these bears...  Too sweet.


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## Just for fun (Nov 11, 2022)

It won't be long now until beer thirty!


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## AlanB (Nov 11, 2022)

One fellow was saying he saves the bears for his wife. She likes Prusa builds for some reason.


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## 7milesup (Nov 11, 2022)

AlanB said:


> I don't think Prusa Slicer is Cura, it is based on a different code base (Slic3r) that predates Cura. But they do share some code such as the arachnid engine recently. SuperSlicer is based on Prusa Slicer. There are a number of other slicers out there as well, but these are the most popular.


You are correct.  My apologies.   For some reason, I was thinking that they shared DNA.


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 11, 2022)

Have to give up for the night.  They saved the best for last.  My goodness, they went out of their way to make this difficult.  In all my years of design and working I've never seen such a wiring mess.  I will need to review a couple of steps previous.  All the cables seem to be in exactly the wrong place to make their connection inside the Einsy box.

Perhaps tomorrow will bring more clarity.  The good thing is that the build is almost done.  I'm thankful for that.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 12, 2022)

Had to redo the ribbon cable routing, it had a twist in it that made life difficult.  My goodness, feel like I have been hazed.  That last bit was difficult and it really didn't need to be.  If the Einsy had been rotated 90 degrees with the door opening to the rear it would have been much easier from a lighting and access point of view.  The box could have stuck out just under the X axis stepper.  

I had difficulty with lightning and just fitting hands and tools in place.  Not to mention the mostly unlabeled cable ends.  As a new user, do you think I am going to remember the proper name of the cable, when I'm not exactly sure what the function is?

Had to melt some filament over the slot of the only nut that was loose, the one that could destroy the controller.  In the comments that was mentioned 2 years ago.  The part is 3d printed, it could have been changed 23 months ago.  All I had was the silver PLA, so that's what I used.  Not pretty, but it's inside the box.

General observation, the human factors of the assembly process were awkward to perform and could use improvement.  The tiny slightly blurry pictures in the manual didn't help.  I did have to use the online manual, especially for the final wiring, it would have been disasterous to use the book.  

I need to inspect the interconnect again, this time with more lighting.

Having convinced myself it was ok, I went for the smoke test.  No smells of burning anything, which is a good sign!  Failed the fan test due to a balky, hardened lube fan.  SW said that the fans were swapped, but they weren't.  Rebooted and passed the test.  Now going through the bed calibration points with the sheet of paper.  Thought I was dragging the head, but that was the paper inertia.


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 12, 2022)

It works!  However, I'm not really sure I've calibrated the z height correctly.  But I did get the Prusa logo to print and it's mostly ok.  Found the 3d printing handbook wasn't that clear.  I didn't even know how the filament was supposed feed from the spool.  Only place there was a picture was the front cover of the book.


----------



## Just for fun (Nov 12, 2022)

Congratulations!!!  

I also had problems wiring the Einsy board, not too bad but it was pretty tight.  Luckly, I had several portable lights that I was able to place in strategic locations that helped with the lighting.


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 12, 2022)

Printed the Benchy.  Came out ok, but there still is a bunch of fine fiber stringing with the silver PLA.  Must not be quite set up right?  Need to check the firmware and update it if necessary.  Downloaded all the FW and SW.  Haven't installed that.

Now I have to figure out Octopi.  I have it set up on an RPI3, but I need to connect it to the printer and figure out how to fixture the webcam.  Probably need to rig a light as well.

Ordered a Satin sheet which is better matched to PETG, and some linear bearings.  Dang the shipping is pretty high...


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## KevinM (Nov 12, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Now I have to figure out Octopi.  I have it set up on an RPI3, but I need to connect it to the printer and figure out how to fixture the webcam........


To connect the RPI to the printer you use a USB cable from Pi to your printers USB port. Supported USB cameras are plug and play.


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## AlanB (Nov 12, 2022)

Congrats on your progress. A heat gun can be used to get rid of most of the stringing. PETG strings much worse than PLA.

PETG and TPU can over-adhere to the smooth PEI, I use a thin mist of Aquanet unscented super-hold to protect the PEI. Easier to apply evenly than glue stick.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 13, 2022)

Octopi is up and running - connected to my printer.  Finally got the webcam to connect - doesn't like being attached after boot, or something like that.  A restart fixed that.  Where do you guys mount your camera?


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## WobblyHand (Nov 13, 2022)

Here's Benchy.

Bow to stern: 60.5 mm  <-- there's a tiny nubbin on the bow
Hull to stack: 48.5 mm  <-- high, should be 48mm, could be first layer issues.
Beam width: 31.04 mm <-- pretty close

There seems to be an issue with the first layer.  Looking at the bottom of the hull shows an issue.  Think it is because the print head is not close enough.  Am I on the right track?


----------



## Just for fun (Nov 13, 2022)

That's what it looks like to me.


----------



## Just for fun (Nov 13, 2022)

On the camera thing, I'm still using a little tri pod.   Last night because of the cold I placed a box over the printer and mounted the camera in it.   I'm printing the mounts for a proper enclosure using PETG.

https://www.prusaprinters.org/cheap-simple-3d-printer-enclosure/…


Here are a couple photos of my temporary setups.   And a screen shot of Octopi.


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 13, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> On the camera thing, I'm still using a little tri pod.   Last night because of the cold I placed a box over the printer and mounted the camera in it.   I'm printing the mounts for a proper enclosure using PETG.
> 
> https://www.prusaprinters.org/cheap-simple-3d-printer-enclosure/…
> 
> ...


Did you mount a light in the box?  Or does your camera have good night vision?


----------



## Just for fun (Nov 13, 2022)

I mounted a light. 







I just stuck the camera through the side of the box.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 13, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> I mounted a light.
> 
> View attachment 426587
> 
> ...


Where did you find that nice metal tray?  

I read through the thread on the enclosure.  How do you know if it all will fit?  Seems there were issues, or is that all sorted out now.  New power supplies didn't fit.  All fixed now?


----------



## Just for fun (Nov 13, 2022)

The large baking sheet I got from Amazon.  I wanted a large chip tray for my lathe but they came in a package of two. 

Baking Sheets Set of 2, HKJ Chef... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S5QWD34?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

For the enclosure I'm only going to use one table and and cut a piece of OSB for the base.   I'll have to come up with a modification for the power supply to mount it on the outside of the enclosure.   I'm not sure how the camera is going to work,  yet to be determined.


----------



## AlanB (Nov 13, 2022)

On the first layer, nozzle appears to be too high off the printbed. I do the Z calibration and lower it until there is moderate squish of the line it lays down, and then measure the thickness of the square it prints out at the end. It should correspond to the thickness the first layer is set to. As I recall it should be about 0.20mm for the standard Z cal. That's with the flat pei sticker magnetic sheet. A textured sheet test flag might need to be a bit thicker as the caliper measures the peak height of the textured imprint.


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 13, 2022)

AlanB said:


> On the first layer, nozzle appears to be too high off the printbed. I do the Z calibration and lower it until there is moderate squish of the line it lays down, and then measure the thickness of the square it prints out at the end. It should correspond to the thickness the first layer is set to. As I recall it should be about 0.20mm for the standard Z cal. That's with the flat pei sticker magnetic sheet. A textured sheet test flag might need to be a bit thicker as the caliper measures the peak height of the textured imprint.


I have the smooth PEI sheet.  The square was about 0.25mm thick, so I subtracted 0.05mm from the Z offset and ran it again.  The line width does not appear to be uniform on the big zig zag.  Of course, I don't know what it should look like, because I have seen nothing written about it, at least in any manuals I found.  This is the frustrating part of the whole thing.  I have no idea what it should look like, save for some blurred pictures from Prusa.  The best photos I found were on All3dp and they were on Benchy.  I will measure it again.

Have you had issues with the webcam starting?  I did a server reboot and the webcam did not come up again.  Seems to be "delicate".


----------



## AlanB (Nov 13, 2022)

I plugged in a webcam and it worked. Don't recall any issues. I would review the system logs for error messages.


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## Just for fun (Nov 13, 2022)

You have probably seen this, but I think this is pretty good.  









						Live adjust Z | Prusa Knowledge Base
					

Every FFF (Fused Filament Fabrication) printer requires a First…




					help.prusa3d.com
				




I have seen a YouTube of setting the Z height, but I can't find it now.  I adjusted mine until when I removed the zig zag calibration the rectangle section came off in one piece.


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 13, 2022)

AlanB said:


> I plugged in a webcam and it worked. Don't recall any issues. I would review the system logs for error messages.


Where is the system log located?


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 13, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> You have probably seen this, but I think this is pretty good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will check that out.  The rectangle comes off in one piece, but the base of Benchy is not as shown in https://all3dp.com/2/benchy-troubleshooting-guide/


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## 7milesup (Nov 13, 2022)

A search for printing issues will provide quite a few results.  One of them *is this guide.*
Another is this one.  https://www.3dsourced.com/rigid-ink...shooting-guide/#issue-stringing-and-oozing-13

Edit:  I see you did reference the Benchy troubleshooting guide.  As AlanB pointed out, the first layer of your Benchy has the nozzle too far from the print surface.  Those lines you see should be squished, resulting in a more homogenous surface.


----------



## AlanB (Nov 14, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Where is the system log located?


try the command "dmesg"


----------



## WobblyHand (Nov 14, 2022)

7milesup said:


> A search for printing issues will provide quite a few results.  One of them *is this guide.*
> Another is this one.  https://www.3dsourced.com/rigid-ink...shooting-guide/#issue-stringing-and-oozing-13
> 
> Edit:  I see you did reference the Benchy troubleshooting guide.  As AlanB pointed out, the first layer of your Benchy has the nozzle too far from the print surface.  Those lines you see should be squished, resulting in a more homogenous surface.


The Prusa pictures online are either out of focus or low resolution, I'm having difficulty knowing how far to go.  My second Benchy is better, but I'm lacking the experience to know what's good enough and what needs to be fixed NOW.  From the test of the zig zag it appears the lines have different widths depending on location of the bed.  How uniform should they be?  What's good enough to start?  I'm used to measuring things, this visual stuff (with crappy pictures) is tough.

For all I know, I didn't torque the bed to the plate uniformly, resulting in different heights.  For that matter, I didn't measure the spacers under the bed.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 14, 2022)

AlanB said:


> try the command "dmesg"


Ah, yes.  Of course.  Guess I can check $ lsusb as well.  

I think Octopi is having issues with the cheapo Logitech webcam from eons ago.  It isn't always recognizing the webcam on a reboot, or cold start.  When it identifies it correctly it works fine, it's just that that is rare.  Probably have to fiddle with the settings in /boot/octoprint.txt.  I tried ID'ing the camera as only on USB, but that is just as bad as AUTO.


----------



## 7milesup (Nov 14, 2022)

I looked up Prusa's first layer calibration page, and I find it rather straightforward.  The pictures do not seem blurry to me.  *Prusa Help - First Layer Calibration*
The first layer can be challenging and does take some fiddling.  For example, Prusa points out that the live Z adjustment can be between -0.400 to -1.500.  When I calibrated my Z, the value that I ended up with was about -0.725.  Yours will not be the same, but I am pointing out that every printer is different.  Even if you had ordered a ready-to-go printer from Prusa, the first layer calibration would still need to be done due to shipping.
Attached is a picture of a print I did last week, more to show my buddy, who is getting into 3D printing, what the first layers can look like.  The right side of the print is too low, but the left side is just right.
I just put a new heat block on my printer and changed out the nozzle, so I had to do this all over, although once you do it a few times it only takes a few minutes to get back up and running.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 14, 2022)

Octopi via lsusb has identified my web camera as 046d:0991 Logitech QuickCam Pro for Notebooks.  But there's no output in the GUI (today).
The tag on side of the cable on the webcam says: M/N V-UBU48, P/N 860-000026, PID LZ803BP

On https://community.octoprint.org/t/usb-webcams-known-to-work-with-mjpg-streamer/21149 there is a listing of known working webcams.
Logitech, Inc. QuickCam Pro for Notebooks M/N V-UBU48, P/N 860-000026, PID LZ725BA

Beats me if it should work...  Only thing that is different is a higher PID.  Tried forcing the resolution and frame rate in octopi.txt and rebooting...
edit: changes in octopi.txt


```
camera="usb"
camera_usb_options="-r 640x480 -f 10"
```

Camera came up after a reboot, so that is good.  Probably reboot a couple more times, because it might be a coincidence...

And it was a coincidence.   2nd and 3rd reboots fail to have the camera back up.  lsusb detects the camera fine.  Drat.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 14, 2022)

7milesup said:


> I looked up Prusa's first layer calibration page, and I find it rather straightforward.  The pictures do not seem blurry to me.  *Prusa Help - First Layer Calibration*
> The first layer can be challenging and does take some fiddling.  For example, Prusa points out that the live Z adjustment can be between -0.400 to -1.500.  When I calibrated my Z, the value that I ended up with was about -0.725.  Yours will not be the same, but I am pointing out that every printer is different.  Even if you had ordered a ready-to-go printer from Prusa, the first layer calibration would still need to be done due to shipping.
> Attached is a picture of a print I did last week, more to show my buddy, who is getting into 3D printing, what the first layers can look like.  The right side of the print is too low, but the left side is just right.
> I just put a new heat block on my printer and changed out the nozzle, so I had to do this all over, although once you do it a few times it only takes a few minutes to get back up and running.


I find the photos hard to interpret.  Perhaps it is my uncorrected residual astigmatism, but I find it difficult to discern the gradation difference between "good" and "too low".  Yes there is a different look (sort of to me) but not the exact features that I am looking for.  This is undoubtedly due to experience as well.  I understand the basic idea, but not the practical side...


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## WobblyHand (Nov 14, 2022)

Camera started to work after deleting the frame rate command.
New edit to octopi.txt
camera_usb_options="-r 640x480"
Seemed to survive ssh _shutdown -r now_, and octoprint restart.


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## AlanB (Nov 14, 2022)

If the nozzle is too high the plastic stream will fall to the bed and flatten on the bottom but not on the top. As the nozzle is lowered the nozzle meplat will begin to flatten the stream and force it against the bed. You want this to some degree, but not excessive. My experience is that to a novice it looks ok when it is still too high. If you keep lowering it and go through optimum toward too low it starts to become obvious that it is too low. I have been able to measure the thickness of the stream or the flag at the end and when it is close to 0.20mm it looks good, at least with the flat PEI surface. Try not to go too low and scratch the surface. 

The printer can remember the Z offset for more than one printbed plate, each should be calibrated separately and stored in one of the memories.

The alignment wizard process at the end of the kit build should tell you if the frame is adequately square and the belts are within a good tension range.

The bed mesh will compensate for minor misalignment of the frame and belts. I use a marble end table surface since my surface plate is not large enough when building the frame to get it flat which contributes to squareness. You can use plugins with Octoprint to plot the bed mesh and see how flat things actually are. Some people go the extra mile and use a nylock nut mod to fine tune bed flatness.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 14, 2022)

I adjusted the nozzle down a little again.  Seemed ok to me, but, really what do I know?  Hardly anything in this subject.  

Ran the slicer on an stl that I found and sent it to the printer via a drag and drop operation.  Feels like flying blind, but might as well give it a go.

Can anyone explain projects in PrusaSlicer?  What are they?  How are they used?


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## AlanB (Nov 14, 2022)

I rarely use projects in PrusaSlicer. They allow you to save your slicer setups. Say you put a few items on the build plate and choose filament types, slicing settings, etc. Can be quite useful if you make many adjustments and want to re-run exactly the same plate of parts with some setting tuning later on. Less useful for doing things one at a time with mostly default settings.


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## AlanB (Nov 14, 2022)

I started printing some Gridfinity storage trays. Very nice system of open source designs for scalable trays that you can print to organize your tools and hardware. There is a website, and many videos on "Gridfinity Divider Bins". By Zack Freedman. A great way to use your 3d printer to organize your tools and parts for projects and the shop. There is a Fusion 360 design and an OpenSCAD design so you can customize them, as well as various collections of pre-designed trays, base grids, etc. These alone could justify a 3d printer for the shop.


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## WobblyHand (Nov 14, 2022)

AlanB said:


> I started printing some Gridfinity storage trays. Very nice system of open source designs for scalable trays that you can print to organize your tools and hardware. There is a website, and many videos on "Gridfinity Divider Bins". By Zack Freedman. A great way to use your 3d printer to organize your tools and parts for projects and the shop. There is a Fusion 360 design and an OpenSCAD design so you can customize them, as well as various collections of pre-designed trays, base grids, etc. These alone could justify a 3d printer for the shop.


I plan to make some little boxes like the one's Schaller makes, but customized for my toolbench.  I will check that website out.


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