# How common is it for a machinist (by trade) to not know how to thread on a lathe?



## strantor

I was at a customer's location the other day and got stuck waiting on a part to arrive. So to kill time, I went over and struck up a conversation with their junior machinist. This company is not a machine shop, but they do make a lot of their own parts, so they have their own machine shop inside, staffed with 2 machinists. They have a Hurco CNC, a Mazak CNC, a Moriseki 16" manual lathe, a Leblond 16" lathe, and a Lagun FT mill. The junior guy says he didn't go to school for machining, but he's been studying under the older guy for about a year and a half. I mentioned that I have a lathe at home and that I was practicing threading. He started asking *me* how to do it! He said he wants to learn how, but the older guy doesn't know how to do it either, so can't teach him. The older guy (who was not available for comment) has supposedly been a machinist for 15 years or more, but works exclusively with the CNCs and never touches the manual machines. There used to be another machinist who knew how to use the manual machines, but these days they are pretty much just for show. Is that weird? I just assumed that all trade machinists learned how to thread on a lathe right after they graduated from sweeping the shop.


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## Cheeseking

Not sure if there's any way to quantify how common it is but you would certainly think anyone calling themselves a machinist by trade would be able to single point thread on a manual lathe.  I am a lowly  engineer that taught myself how to thread in my home shop by recalling what little I retained from HS machine shop - remember that?? - and from books describing the procedure.  It's becoming a worn out saw but true machinists that just "get it" and have a passion for the job are getting harder and harder to find.   Im sure many of the people here on this board fit that description even if they are not machinists by trade.


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## Dr.Fiero

Possibly like how an older generation took driving a stick for granted, and though auto's were for the lady of the house (assuming he let her out - ha ha ha).

Automated procedures I guess are becoming the norm.

I can sort of thread...  with about 20 practice runs...  before I kill the real part.


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## strantor

Cheeseking said:


> I am a lowly  engineer that taught myself how to thread in my home shop



The impression that I get (if the Title of the forum is any indication) is that you and I, most users here on the forum fit that description. So we come from a collective perspective that is generally not the perspective of a trade machinist. I think that most of us would assume, like you and I do, that every machinist knows how to thread on a manual lathe. But I'm questioning that. I'm wondering if a young guy were to go apply for a machinist job today, would he even see a manual lathe? Most of us hobbyists own manual lathes because that's what we can afford. But a big company with money to blow, might not see the value in buying several manual machines and pay several people to operate them with a less than perfect rate of success. They may consider it better to buy one or 2 CNCs and pay one guy to run them. So if our newbie went to work there, it may be conceivable that he might enjoy a full length career without ever seeing a manual machine like we do. I want perspective of a trade machinist; is this conceivable? Or do most shops still have manual machines, and do they start their newbies out on them?


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## OldMachinist

I spent many years as a working foreman in a job shop and one of things I always tested for when hiring a new person was if they could cut a thread on a manual lathe. Many people apply for machinist jobs that have no idea how to do it. Alot would say they know how but when you put them in front of machine and say show me they would fail.


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## pdentrem

As you just found out. There is a difference between a machinist and a machine operator.


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## Bill Gruby

If the machinist went thru an apprenticeship it is impossible not to know how to thread both left and right hand.

 "Billy G"


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## widmayer

We have 7 Haas Cnc Machines at our shop and 8 Manual mills,2 Cnc Lathes, 2 Maual Lathes.
I think one of the guys from cnc can operate a manual mill!


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## Ray C

Wow, hard to believe...  That's like a doctor not knowing how to suture.  But, I guess to be fair, you could ask the question:  How many manual machinists know how to cut threads on a CNC machine?

Ray


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## ScrapMetal

Guys, especially you who have worked as machinists, can someone really call themselves a "machinist" if they know nothing but how to program a CNC machine?  I'd call that a machine programmer or operator but not a machinist.

-Ron


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## Rbeckett

I used to be a driver trainer for a large trucking company.  We got three types of applicant.  Those that could learn, those that would never learn and the natural born driver.  Machinists are the same way.  A natural born machinist will far exceed any training he or she ever gets.  Some can be trained every day till they retire and still not "get it" one who is trainable will get it after a few lessons and a few tries.  Unfortunately there is no apprentice ships like there were back in my youth and my fathers time.  He learned to print as an apprentice and so did I.  It was tough but good.  I also learned to be an auto mechanic as an apprentice.  I bled a lot, I changed a lot of oil, but I learned and never messed up a car in 30 plus years working on em either.  Just shows how a trade is being replaced by a button pusher and nothing more.  There is no loyalty to the companies or from the companies to the employee any more.  Hypertherm is one company who still does it the old fashioned way, and they have an average of 19 years across their employee pool.  Speaks volumes doesn't it?

Bob


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## strantor

Rbeckett said:


> There is no loyalty to the companies or from the companies to the employee any more.  Hypertherm is one company who still does it the old fashioned way, and they have an average of 19 years across their employee pool.  Speaks volumes doesn't it?


It speaks, but in 2013, I wouldn't say volumes. As you say, there is not loyalty in either direction. It's become obsolete, gone the way of hard work. People replaced by automated machines; loyalty reaches as far as a dollar reaches, or a little less. What incentive, other than sentiment, does a company have to keep an employee around for 19 years? The longer they keep them on the payroll, the more they have to pay them. And God forbid they keep them around until retirement age, lest they have to pay a pension - oh wait, never mind! Make the job require less and less skill, then you can hire less and less skilled workers and pay them less and less. Flush the highly skilled, appropriately compensated. What benefit does Hypertherm realize from their employment practices? Are their profits higher than others as a result of their 19 year average? If the answer is yes, then why have the majority of all the other companies shifted their tactics toward hiring bottom dollar imported engineers and unskilled "skilled" workers? THAT's what speaks volumes: when entire industries do 180 degree turns in the way they handle employees and all follow one business model. The "dog eat dog" model, the new norm. Learn to love it because we are never going back. Hypertherm and any other remaining stragglers will conform or die.


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## Cheeseking

Those of us that have manual lathes in our shops - are you able to cut threads?
Yes. 
Yes but....
No.   
Its on my list.

I fall into the Yes but.... Category. 
Mainly due to the fact Ive only tried a few times and had reasonable success. First time I made beautiful LEfty threads but not intentionally 
Recently I did some 5/8-11 threading practice on nice free cutting brass with a big relief shoulder.   Not perfect but not bad.


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## strantor

I'll say "Yes, but.." but that's being generous. I just started trying last week and have a 100% success rate with the 2 times I did outside threading, and currently working on my second try at inside threading - I screwed the first one up. Small accomplishment, but I owe it to tubalcain.


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## itsme_Bernie

Another "Yes, but..." ...  I don't know if this is the same as landing a plane, as pilots commonly say "You never get used to landing a plane- it is making a flying vehicle into a land vehicle" ...  Well, I never "get used to" inside threading.  Always nervous as I reach the end of the cut!  Hah

Bernie


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## Uncle Buck

It is a sign of the times. The majority of work anymore takes place on CNC machines. For companies where the majority of their production comes from CNC equipment those with the skills to get the most out of that equipment would be in greater demand. Even in shops where only one manual mill and lathe survive there are generally one or two "old timers" employed that know their way around manual equipment. Unfortunately for most CNC guys a lot of manual operations are simply Greek to them and in reality not of great enough importance to the production objectives of the employer to warrant developing those skills in the CNC guys. I would say the metal shaper is a like comparison, or the horizontal mill. Early on I am sure virtually all machinists were skilled in operating both of those, however technology progressed and relegated both machines to a situation where I am sure a good percentage of machinists might not know a thing about a metal shaper (nor want to know for that matter) or they are likely not as comfortable with a horizontal mill as they are a vertical milling machine. (and that is speaking of manual operators) If you go visit a real progressive trade school program you will see CNC knowledge and machine use being taught as much if not more than manual skills.


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## Harvey Melvin Richards

The last time that I cut threads on a lathe was 18 years ago. It would take me a while to "relearn". For many years my work lathe was slightly broke, and the automatic feed wouldn't engage, so threading was out of the question.

When I need a threaded part, if the design will allow it, I will tap the part, insert and Locktite threaded rod, then trim the threaded end to length. There is usually more than one way to achieve the desired end.


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## Ray C

Yes.  Many times per week.  Inside, outside, left & right hand, SAE, Metric -and many combinations thereof.  Only thing I haven't done is thread a tapered shaft but the need hasn't arisen.  I know how I'd do it if needed.

Once you get the technique down, screw-ups are rare -but they do happen sometimes.  I killed a part Saturday morning.  -Happens...

Ray





Cheeseking said:


> Those of us that have manual lathes in our shops - are you able to cut threads?
> Yes.
> Yes but....
> No.
> Its on my list.
> 
> I fall into the Yes but.... Category.
> Mainly due to the fact Ive only tried a few times and had reasonable success. First time I made beautiful LEfty threads but not intentionally 
> Recently I did some 5/8-11 threading practice on nice free cutting brass with a big relief shoulder. Not perfect but not bad.


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## Bill Gruby

ScrapMetal said:


> Guys, especially you who have worked as machinists, can someone really call themselves a "machinist" if they know nothing but how to program a CNC machine?  I'd call that a machine programmer or operator but not a machinist.
> 
> -Ron[/QUOTE
> 
> That's a tough question to answer, especially the way it is worded. I know CNC people that came up from being machinists. They are the real deal.  Now at the same time I know those that can only run CNC, to me they are not machinists.
> 
> "Billy G"


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## Uncle Buck

Unfortunately, these days I think both are machinists. By that I am saying that guys limited to manual equipment are certainly machinists. But really, when you accurately analyze it if a guy can take a chunk of material and turn it into a product using nothing more than a CNC machine does that really make him any less a machinist? Both guys are limited to either manual or CNC machines but in the end they both have the ability to create a part or something of value from what was originally a solid mass of material if you will. I have no dog in this fight but to me in the end if the guy can produce a part or something of value then they just took different paths to reach the same goal so yes, to me they are both machinists.  With that said, I would never have any interest in CNC stuff, that too me would be real bloody boring. Gotta have my hands on the wheels myself.


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## ScrapMetal

Uncle Buck said:


> Unfortunately, these days I think both are machinists. By that I am saying that guys limited to manual equipment are certainly machinists. But really, when you accurately analyze it if a guy can take a chunk of material and turn it into a product using nothing more than a CNC machine does that really make him any less a machinist? Both guys are limited to either manual or CNC machines but in the end they both have the ability to create a part or something of value from what was originally a solid mass of material if you will. I have no dog in this fight but to me in the end if the guy can produce a part or something of value then they just took different paths to reach the same goal so yes, to me they are both machinists.  With that said, I would never have any interest in CNC stuff, that too me would be real bloody boring. Gotta have my hands on the wheels myself.




I'm not sure if I can sign on to that definition but you do make a good point.  Where I see things going in the future I believe it will become a moot point.  What I mean by that is I see a day coming when CNC machines will require NO programming.  The sophistication of the internal software will be such that it will only require a designer to create a 3-D model in something like Autocad, Designcad, etc. and then send the "design" to the machine.  The machine will then "decide" how to make the cuts, what tools to use, etc.

"Machinists", "operators", and "programmers" will be gone and we'll be left with "designers".

JMHO (with 35+ years programming experience)

-Ron


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## Uncle Buck

ScrapMetal said:


> I'm not sure if I can sign on to that definition but you do make a good point.  Where I see things going in the future I believe it will become a moot point.  What I mean by that is I see a day coming when CNC machines will require NO programming.  The sophistication of the internal software will be such that it will only require a designer to create a 3-D model in something like Autocad, Designcad, etc. and then send the "design" to the machine.  The machine will then "decide" how to make the cuts, what tools to use, etc.
> 
> "Machinists", "operators", and "programmers" will be gone and we'll be left with "designers".
> 
> JMHO (with 35+ years programming experience)
> 
> -Ron


  I cannot say that I particularly like my definition because it takes away all of the shop savvy, education and years of experience and knowledge experienced machinists have and equates it to a computer programmer (more than a little distasteful to say the least) but in the end they both turn raw material into parts, hence my logic.


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## Sandro

Cheeseking said:


> Those of us that have manual lathes in our shops - are you able to cut threads?
> Yes.
> Yes but....
> No.
> Its on my list.



Yes, it isn't that complicated, it just takes a little practice. I cut my first thread 35 years ago on the small Myford lathe my dad had in the garage. Since then I've cut inside, outside, SAE, metric and even Acme. I ran one lathe (a Dean Smith and Grace, very nice) that had an automatic thread stop. I could cut a thread up to a shoulder at 2000 RPM without any worries, the half nuts would disengage at the same spot every time. A joy to use.

But getting back to the original question, there are a lot of machinists out there that learned to do only a few things that didn't include threading. It's not their fault, many companies don't take the time to cross train their own people, they prefer to hire the skills they need when they need them. I speak from sad experience.

Sandro Di Filippo


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## strantor

ScrapMetal said:


> I'm not sure if I can sign on to that definition but you do make a good point.  Where I see things going in the future I believe it will become a moot point.  What I mean by that is I see a day coming when CNC machines will require NO programming.  The sophistication of the internal software will be such that it will only require a designer to create a 3-D model in something like Autocad, Designcad, etc. and then send the "design" to the machine.  The machine will then "decide" how to make the cuts, what tools to use, etc.
> 
> "Machinists", "operators", and "programmers" will be gone and we'll be left with "designers".
> 
> JMHO (with 35+ years programming experience)
> -Ron



I bet I'll see in a decade or less, the fusion of a laser scanner (existing tech), a 3d metal printer (existing tech) and a CNC, for what equates to a real life star trek replicator. Put a complex part in,close the door, press the "copy" button, come back in 10 or 15 minutes and retrieve the new part. Or if it doesn't exist yet, whip it up an google sketchup with absolutely no formal training in 10 minutes and click "print".


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## Uncle Buck

I think the time where parts are reproduced almost like a copy machine copies a piece of paper is a lot closer than folks think. I bet in the next few years it will start being heard of more and more.


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## ScrapMetal

Again, I'm not too sure about that.  Seems to me there are a number of technical advances that need to be made, if they are at all possible.  Remember that is was predicted back in the '50s that we'd all have flying cars by now?  It seemed like all the technology was there someone just had to refine it.  I think the "replicator" is in much the same category.

Always the "fly in the ointment" :thumbzup:

-Ron


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## 4GSR

I know down here in South Texas, the prerequisite of being qualified and or hired to run a lathe in any shop, is to be able to cut threads.  Especially with the number of different straight and tapered threads that are use here in the oilfield.  And most shops will not hire you if you cannot cut tapered threads!


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## pdentrem

What it comes down to is definitions or distinctions between different jobs and methods.

1. Machinist, this is that we are most likely to think of. Old school, came up through apprentice programs and runs all machines. Works from drawings and use hand tools as well as machines. Might be specialized on a machine or two, but can work anywhere in the shop if needs to.

2. What I may with your premission a Modern/Current/Retrained Machinist. Old school running the new CNC stuff.

3. Programmer/CNC Operator, this person can program the CNC to do the job, either for himself or for the floor. He has to know how to do the job and which tools and processes involved etc. Still a machinist in most peoples views I believe.

4. CNC Operator. No training other than push Go/Stop. Change tools and feed the machine. Not a machinist.

I hope this makes sense. It is a close as I can get to what it seems the thread is pointing to.
Pierre


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## Uncle Buck

pdentrem said:


> What it comes down to is definitions or distinctions between different jobs and methods.
> 
> 1. Machinist, this is that we are most likely to think of. Old school, came up through apprentice programs and runs all machines. Works from drawings and use hand tools as well as machines. Might be specialized on a machine or two, but can work anywhere in the shop if needs to.
> 
> 2. What I may with your premission a Modern/Current/Retrained Machinist. Old school running the new CNC stuff.
> 
> 3. Programmer/CNC Operator, this person can program the CNC to do the job, either for himself or for the floor. He has to know how to do the job and which tools and processes involved etc. Still a machinist in most peoples views I believe.
> 
> 4. CNC Operator. No training other than push Go/Stop. Change tools and feed the machine. Not a machinist.
> 
> I hope this makes sense. It is a close as I can get to what it seems the thread is pointing to.
> Pierre


ya, you nailed it!


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## strantor

ScrapMetal said:


> Again, I'm not too sure about that.  Seems to me there are a number of technical advances that need to be made, if they are at all possible.  Remember that is was predicted back in the '50s that we'd all have flying cars by now?  It seemed like all the technology was there someone just had to refine it.  I think the "replicator" is in much the same category.
> 
> Always the "fly in the ointment" :thumbzup:
> 
> -Ron


The flying car tech is here; has been for a long time. Flying cars have been made, but they aren't practical. They didn't take off (pun intended) because there was no consumer interest, for the price tag. 

Those entities with the money are the ones who make things happen. For the flying car, the entity was the general populace, who can't afford the technology. You talk about a replicator, that's a different entity. That's industry. Industry will take out infinite loans to buy things with infinite price tags if there is a promise of infinite profit. The 3D laser scanner already exists just like the 2D laser scanner in my HP 3-in-1 scanner/printer/copier. The 3D metal printer already exists just like the 2D ink printer in my HP 3-in-1 scanner/printer/copier. The only thing that needs to be one is to tie the two together and put a "COPY" button on it, and voila! we have a Star Trek replicator. All the hard work has been done!

...

wait, a quick google search reveals that the 3D copier already exists, but it doesn't do metal yet. They have 3D metal printers and they have a 3D copier. I'm guessing the 3D metal copier probably already exists in an R&D lab somewhere, just getting the kinks worked out of it.


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## GK1918

After digesting all of this, I am the lucky one.  As a boy one of my bike pit stops was the well respected
Paragon Gear Marine Works.  Had the Royalty to roam in there (uncle) worked there.  As a kid the brain
multiplys things but I see white hair gold rim glasses with a loop aprons on, with rules and pencils in
pockets a million lathes shapers mills monster presses a foundry.  Didnt own a Brownie yet but I still
can see it, wood oiled flooring old light globes hunter ceiling fans, black lunch boxes does anyone 
remember at 12 noon, steam whistle could be heard for miles.  My biggest problem "it didnt last long
enough".  Im now a white head with a loop with ruler in pocket, dont know metrics (wasnt in our school)
dont have DROs maybe someday, old eyes.  Then the root of winning 2 wars, those were the true
Rosey the riveters, B17 pilots had their lives entrusted right down to the machinist I know my uncle
was a machinist early 40s, army, one screwup somebodys life is at stake.  He said it was a respected
job on the base even earned rank.  So the machinist has to master man and machine has to come up
with impossible solutions and make those workable.  Myself pushing a button then take a nap same
thing every day is just not me.  Here I never know what walks through the door and usually a
challange at best.  I must be Keith Fenners twin nothing new no high tech just brilliant solutions.
And I do not claim to be one but I have not yet said I cant do it.   All has opions thats mine.


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## Walt

strantor said:


> The flying car tech is here; has been for a long time. Flying cars have been made, but they aren't practical. They didn't take off (pun intended) because there was no consumer interest, for the price tag.
> 
> Those entities with the money are the ones who make things happen. For the flying car, the entity was the general populace, who can't afford the technology. You talk about a replicator, that's a different entity. That's industry. Industry will take out infinite loans to buy things with infinite price tags if there is a promise of infinite profit. The 3D laser scanner already exists just like the 2D laser scanner in my HP 3-in-1 scanner/printer/copier. The 3D metal printer already exists just like the 2D ink printer in my HP 3-in-1 scanner/printer/copier. The only thing that needs to be one is to tie the two together and put a "COPY" button on it, and voila! we have a Star Trek replicator. All the hard work has been done!
> 
> ...
> 
> wait, a quick google search reveals that the 3D copier already exists, but it doesn't do metal yet. They have 3D metal printers and they have a 3D copier. I'm guessing the 3D metal copier probably already exists in an R&D lab somewhere, just getting the kinks worked out of it.



My opinion only: Production work will continue to migrate overseas or to CNC. 3D printing is always going to be for niche stuff because it's fundamentally slow. That being said, I think there will turn out to be a lot of niches.

I suspect that a lot of people who are active on this board would give a lot to work in a job shop. There will always be a need for people who have the right mix of technical skills and business savvy to provide repair services, or small production runs for the folks who do the physical stuff that makes civilization possible.  I have a deep and abiding respect for everyone who works to keep that knowledge alive. 

However, it's not stupid or lazy necessarily for a young person going into metal fabrication to fail to learn manual machine operation if his objective is to stay employed and support his family. The hard truth of life in this world always is you either learn the skills that are in demand, or you find a different line of work. How many jobs are available that use manual skills compared to CNC production work? I really don't know, but I suspect the production work is the majority of the current employment.

My training in school as a chemist emphasized a lot of hands-on bench chemist work. Today, that's the least part of what I do. I get paid to keep extremely detailed records and to run a mass spectrometer. The old, manual methods are fascinating and it is all being lost. It's too bad, but I have to keep my focus on what the boss wants done.

Walt


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## tripletap3

I have been following this thread and I can't help but think it has a connection to this thread. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/show...-down-the-community-college-machining-program


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## dtberry3

This topic caught my attention due to an experience I had several years ago, so I thought I'd share.  About 2 years after finishing my apprenticeship,I became the lone machinist on afternoon shift.  Shortly after that, the company closed it's rebuild shop and the last machinist from that area was placed with me in the toolroom.  This fellow had the title off machinist for well over 30 years and could not operate the mill.   Apparently, this company had a past practice of hiding people in easy jobs instead of falling them. 
  This  resulted in me being forced into training a machinist that had the title longer than I had been alive. Thankfully, he retired 3  months later. I spent most days during that time fighting the urge to squeeze  his throat until the twitching stopped.


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## MG-42

I have interviewed employes over the years and found that most could do very little on manual machines. 
The guys that I learn from could do a vast number of things on manual machines that most can only do on cnc today. I have chatted with machinists that worked in the trade for 15 years or better that could not even run a lathe. All they ever did in there show was use a mill or surface grinder. No cross training what so ever. That is not the case in my small 3 man shop. Today you could be designing or programming. Tomorrow it could be welding or running the forging press. The next you could be doing die work or running the punch press. Cross training and schooling are very important here.


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## BRIAN

A visitor to my shop a few months ago saw this and said ( I could write the program but I could not make it )
I made me feel a little smug, But you see I cant write a program. am I required at all?
 I think the answer comes when the programer brakes something and cant repair it.



Perhaps I am just to old.

Brian.


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## coyotejake

pdentrem said:


> What it comes down to is definitions or distinctions between different jobs and methods.
> 
> 1. Machinist, this is that we are most likely to think of. Old school, came up through apprentice programs and runs all machines. Works from drawings and use hand tools as well as machines. Might be specialized on a machine or two, but can work anywhere in the shop if needs to.
> 
> 2. What I may with your premission a Modern/Current/Retrained Machinist. Old school running the new CNC stuff.
> 
> 3. Programmer/CNC Operator, this person can program the CNC to do the job, either for himself or for the floor. He has to know how to do the job and which tools and processes involved etc. Still a machinist in most peoples views I believe.
> 
> 4. CNC Operator. No training other than push Go/Stop. Change tools and feed the machine. Not a machinist.
> 
> I hope this makes sense. It is a close as I can get to what it seems the thread is pointing to.
> 
> Pierre





Wow, what a can of worms!  I think Pierre's definitions make the most sense, but I will add one to the list.  I'm not sure what to call myself, so let's try 'Reverter'.  I am mostly a Programmer/CNC Operator, but I choose to revert to old school techniques whenever I can, picking the brain of any (really) old/experienced guys whenever I can.  To address the question of the thread, I have never, in 17 years of machining, had to (or yet learned how to) single point thread on a manual lathe.  It will be learned when I add a lathe to my home shop (hopefully this spring), but the career I enjoy in machining simply doesn't require it.  Am I a 'real' machinist?  You're darn right I am!  I can make anything our ($@#^) engineers can think up, no matter how poorly designed (don't get me started), and I can (yes, manually) retrofit anything they change, no matter how tight the tolerance.  I've begun tooling my own (manual) home shop, and I am quite proud of what my years of experience has left me to be able to accomplish.  To be able to think up some part or peice in your mind and then know how to bring your thoughts into existence is a rush indeed!  I've created too many such projects over the years, using too many 'types' of machining, to sit still while someone calls me a mere 'operator', and still I've never threaded on a manual.  I also seem to possess a (treasured) God-given gift of being a details oriented person, which has helped my career to no end.  Unfortunately, I'm more and more surrounded by young kids who just don't care to do a great job.  I work with a guy who really would make a good mechanic, as he tries sooo hard to 'crank out the work'.  He just can't seem to get the finesse side of it, and we have to fix a lot of his work.
  I fully agree with 4gsr (and others in shops around the country), that I wouldn't make it if I had to come back to oil country (grew up in Bay City, TX.).  How many of us have seen a legitimately experienced machinist hire on in our shop and have to be babysat until he figured out the type of work that we do?  I learned early on not to 'run my mouth' about what I think I know, for there is an entire UNIVERSE of machining out there, and none of us will ever get to know it all.  I've used both CNC and manual mills, both CNC and manual lathes, screw machines, a water jet (very cool), EDM, heated presses, surface grinders, 4th and 5th axis attachments, and more, but I know that I've only scratched the surface.  I'm blessed to be in a shop where everyone is expected to program their own job assignments (although Mastercam is NOT the easiest CAD program to learn).  The last company I worked for was 'typical America'; just push the button and make us money.  I was fortunate enough to see past this mentality, and made a habit of bugging everyone who'd listen to teach me some 'real machining skills' (Dean Paul, if you ever happen to read this, THANK YOU for your patience, although I do remember you laughing at how long it took me to learn to tram in the head of the Bridgeport).
  I just learned (off the internet-thanks tubalcain) the math to be able to use my new (to me) dividing head.  What's next?  Single point threading, of course!  Then ball turning (can't wait to learn that one!)!  I learned to knurl on my own about six months ago, but I need to practice when I get my lathe.  I have a book somewhere about metal spinning on a lathe.  Hmmmm.  OH, and then there's cutting tapers!  I should get started right now on designing my own one-of-a-kind set of screwdrivers.  Maybe after I replicate the mushroom shifter knob from my dad's '53 Chevy pickup (for my flatbed truck)!  DADGUMIT!!!  Thanks a lot, fellas!  It's 1:30 AM and my brain is just getting going!  Gotta go!


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## sniggler

The first Marine said to the second Marine, "you should have been here in the old corps."

In building boats the step between the plans and the building is "lofting" literally laying out the lines of the hull on the floor of the sail loft by springing long wood battens around points on the floor to proof the plans making sure the curves are all fair. Then measurements are taking directly off the floor to make the frames.

With the advent of design programs CAD lofting is regrettably and almost universally obsolete, but the lines of those old wooden boats will never be.


Bob (semper-fi)


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## rangerman

There's always gonna be needs for manual lathe/mill machinists until CNC machines become affordable at the level of affordability comfortable for just about every ordinary metalworking hobby person just like owning a used car or a bicycle. 
With CNC it's now possible for a person,  with excellent parts/materials/drafting knowledge and experience /computer software design skills and education, machine programming training and fairly good common sense or intelligence to machine a good part using CNC machines even if he has not operated a manual mill or a lathe before.

A CNC machine is actually a robot, capable of doing exactly what the programmer wants it to do. If it's already set up to have everything it needs it could do its job exactly as instructed.
All the CNC operator needs to do is to make sure all instructions are given to that robotic CNC machine for it to do its job.

Let's not confuse the job of a CNC operator to the designer of the parts to be machined. Design is normally not the job (even though it still be possible that it is)  of a CNC or manual machine operator. Plans/blueprints/instructions are guides usually given to the manual machinist or even CNC operator by someone other than himself.


How many good engineers still need slide rules or T-squares with protractor, to do complex calculations and design changes when he needs to finalize a design given that programmable electronic calculators or a math computer programs and 3D rendering software are now readily available and faster to use?


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## TOOLMASTER

I can thread anything but i don't....i just don't make things that need machined threads any more ..sure i'll use taps and dies but that is it..


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## xalky

If you ask me, a machinist should be able to cut threads. It's a basic operation as far as machining goes IMO. Otherwise your just a machine operator.

Marcel


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## David Kirtley

xalky said:


> If you ask me, a machinist should be able to cut threads. It's a basic operation as far as machining goes IMO. Otherwise your just a machine operator.
> 
> Marcel



But to be fair, that is probably the same thing that the people who chased threads by hand said when all the new kids could only do it with one of those newfangled screw cutting lathes that "do it automatically for you".

And the same thing the people who scraped surfaces said to the new kids that only knew how to use a surface grinder.

The list goes on.

Technologies change. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse -- that is a different issue. When people create a training program (or any other education) they have to make a choice, either teach the new ways and drop the old ways or make the training longer and longer to teach all the technologies new and old.  Can you jam everything that an apprentice learned in their program over 5 years into a 3 month "old time skills" section? Think you will have a lot of people who will want to sign up for a 12 year apprenticeship program? Something has to be taken out to be able to put new material in the system.


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## xalky

I think that the term "machinist" is at issue here. 

One who programs a robotic welding machine is no more a welder than a guy who programs a cnc machine is a machinist. It's a different skill set. It takes skills to program cnc and robotics....no doubt, absolutely, I can't do it,... I can, but very minimally. It's a different skill set, and should be labeled differently. I do understand that the new technology has replaced the true machinist, and training programs have to cater to where the jobs are. Try to have a cnc programmer repair an old part that needs to be refurbished, it's a different skill set.

In my day job, I'm a remodeling contractor. I've been doing it for 30 yrs now. There are some guys that call themselves carpenters that can't hang a cabinet straight or cope a crown molding. Those are the production guys, they build the condos and tract housing. I don't even want to compete with those guys in thier arena, even though i used to. Now, I go where those guys can't compete with me. I do all the fussy interior finishing, on mostly existing properties, that's where I shine, and get paid well to do it, because the truly skilled guys are far and few between.

Marcel


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## Bill Gruby

How I earned the title "Machinist" (4 years -- or 8000 hours.)

 A true machinist (IMHO) would not pass off any operation to another unless it were absolutely necessary. By that I mean he can do it all. That is old school. Every operation was taught in the apprenticeship. The last part of my apprenticeship was to be handed a print. You go from there with no help. You performed all operations. That included threading and anything else that was on the print. You had 8 hrs. to complete it. Then and only then would you be allowed to take the Journeymans Exam.

 "Billy G"


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## David Kirtley

For the most part, what was once considered a machinist no longer really exists as a trade.  The same can be said for patternmakers, blacksmiths, and many other trades from the past. Prototypes are made with CNC and rapid prototyping machines. Production is done by mass production machinery and starting to be done by CNC as the price comes down. Repair and replacement parts are not considered cost effective. Yes, there are still a few machinists around but as a whole, they will be gone by the end of the current generation.

Not in all ways, but there are some advantages to breaking away from the old apprenticeship and the associated naming systems though. The main focus of many of the trades was to keep people out rather than to bring people in. There were also a lot of abuses in the training once in. Some people got into fantastic programs that trained them in all aspects and others were in sweatshops where they were worked like dogs with little training other than sink or swim. In a previous life, I worked as an electrician and I got a lot of resentment from many co-workers and the boss that I took and passed the Journeyman test when they were still wanting me to be spending all my time digging ditches because I was cheaper than renting a trencher. It didn't take that long to get my fill and move on.

Few will be able to call themselves Machinists in the old sense of the trade. There are few programs to train them because companies don't want the "expense" of training and about the only way to get any training is through a program that the student has to pay up front for a long time before they have any marketable skills. Companies only want to hire those that already know the job. 

The good side is that the skills are at least being kept alive by people for making their own stuff and picking up the scrap jobs that are too small of a market for the big companies to be interested in. But, they will be doing much that is outside of the scope of a Machinist. They will be designing their own products, doing their own marketing and sales, and doing their own customer support, along with all the boring stuff like bookkeeping, purchasing, payroll, shipping, and everything else involved. In other words, it will still be here but in a different form.


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## Bill C.

strantor said:


> I was at a customer's location the other day and got stuck waiting on a part to arrive. So to kill time, I went over and struck up a conversation with their junior machinist. This company is not a machine shop, but they do make a lot of their own parts, so they have their own machine shop inside, staffed with 2 machinists. They have a Hurco CNC, a Mazak CNC, a Moriseki 16" manual lathe, a Leblond 16" lathe, and a Lagun FT mill. The junior guy says he didn't go to school for machining, but he's been studying under the older guy for about a year and a half. I mentioned that I have a lathe at home and that I was practicing threading. He started asking *me* how to do it! He said he wants to learn how, but the older guy doesn't know how to do it either, so can't teach him. The older guy (who was not available for comment) has supposedly been a machinist for 15 years or more, but works exclusively with the CNCs and never touches the manual machines. There used to be another machinist who knew how to use the manual machines, but these days they are pretty much just for show. Is that weird? I just assumed that all trade machinists learned how to thread on a lathe right after they graduated from sweeping the shop.



When I was in the shops we called those machinist "CNC Machinist".  Highly skilled craftsmen that I admired for their talent. Sounds like the shop you were in built specialize machinery. When I was working U of L Speed Engineering School they had  manuel shop equipment.  After I left Cincinnati Milacron donated a whole floor of new CNC equipment for the engineering students back in the 1970's.  Just my luck.


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## Bill Gruby

David;

 I must respectfully disagree with that. You see, it took a man or woman to create the machine. It will always take one to fix them. Regardless of the type of machinery, manual or CNC or whatever the future holds you will still need the same types of skills to do the job. I do agree the manual machinist is losing ground, but he will never be gone.

 "Billy G"


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## David Kirtley

No, the task will go on. It is the machinist and other skilled trades people trained through apprenticeship that are gone. Going through a few classes at a tech school has little resemblance to the breadth of learning being immersed all day on the job and many nights with supplemental course work for 4 or 5 years that a traditional machinist went through just to get through the apprenticeship phase. Unfortunately, smart students are directed away from technical training as if it were "unworthy" and for people with less "potential." For the most part, the modern equivalent is being taught by people that are not really practicing a trade and the students are just reading about it and doing a few small projects in a lab rather than living through real jobs in the field. It is a horrible failing in the educational system and the corporate mentality that is too shortsighted to provide for the development of their own workforce by teaching what people really need to know to be successful in the field. 

In a few years when the last of the practicing machinists, plumbers, masons, electricians and pretty much all the rest of the properly trained people have retired, we are going to see shortages and infrastructure problems on a massive scale. The only real hope is that the labor shortages in "blue collar" areas will drive the wages up to the point that it will attract people to the areas. If not that, then all we have left is opening up immigration to attract those trained elsewhere to fill the void.


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## Walt

David Kirtley said:


> In a few years when the last of the practicing machinists, plumbers, masons, electricians and pretty much all the rest of the properly trained people have retired, we are going to see shortages and infrastructure problems on a massive scale. The only real hope is that the labor shortages in "blue collar" areas will drive the wages up to the point that it will attract people to the areas. If not that, then all we have left is opening up immigration to attract those trained elsewhere to fill the void.



Apologies for straying a bit off topic. But this is exactly the "bill of goods" that has been sold to the public with regards to STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math). Young people look on the one hand at the experts wringing hands over the decline in the numbers of young workers going into technology. Then they look at the wages of people actually working in those jobs. Not only is it tough starting out, but almost everyone who makes a middle class wage ends up going into management or sales. If a young person is going to face that choice, why not short-cut the process and go for a business degree? It's not an foolish conclusion that companies are going to advance one's career as a manager based on management expertise over technical knowledge .

I personally know two different people who hung in there to get degrees in biotech (not sure exactly what specialty). Where I live is considered one of the better geographical areas for biotechnology start ups. Both ended up fleeing the area because the jobs available pay so little they either did better elsewhere in the USA, or left the field completely to get more money.

No answers here, just concluding that the poor wages in manufacturing mean there really aren't as many career opportunities in the field as we would like. It's sickening that so much knowledge is being lost, and many talented young people waste their abilities doing work they are not happy with or suited to.

Walt


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## Jim1942

I would never consider myself a machinist because I've known some outstanding ones that used to work for DuPont.  Some of the things I saw those guys do 50 years ago makes me know not to even try to put myself in that category.  But, I did learn enough from some of them to be able to operate my lathes to some extent, so I will just always say that I'm more of an operator.

However, the guy that taught me to run the lathe from my beginning, was very strong minded and determined that one of the first things I would need to learn was to cut threads.  He wore me out making me learn to do that, pretty much from the start.  That training has come in handy here on the farm many times over the years.

After building my wood working shop, I found an American planner at a lumber yard that was closing up and going out of business.  I was able to buy it cheap, mostly because it was so old and heavy that most hobby shops couldn't handle it and set it up.  Or maybe everyone else had better sense than to do that much work.  It had flat belt pulleys that extended out on each side that ran counter shafts for the feed section and this monster took up more space than you can imagine.  Before I bought it, I figured out a way to do away with the belts and pulleys by adding another motor to drive the feed section, which would make the whole unit a lot more compact.  In making all these conversions, I ran in to holes in the frame where brackets were bolted on, that were threaded for 1/2"-12 bolts instead of our modern 1/2"-13.  I had to use some of those holes for my conversion project and that presented no problem, since I was right at home with making any bolt needed.  It was indeed a lot of work, but I don't have much money in it and that critter is a hoss.  She'll take a saw mill board, up to 24" wide, and make it into a beautiful piece of lumber in just a few passes, with very little sanding needed.

Sorry, guess I got away from the machinist subject here, but my thinking is, it's very rewarding to dig in and learn to make threads since your lucky enough to own a lathe.

Jim Dunn
Harrington, Delaware


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## chuckorlando

I know some folks may not agree with my opinion on the subject, but it's a strong opinion non the less. I'm in cnc school an am blessed enough to be taught by an old school teacher. I tend to agree with his opinion on what a machinist is. We are taught manual machines, manual math, manual everything before we ever get to even talk g code. And his logic on that is a real machinist has to understand the process. Be it cnc or manual, the process is the same. A cnc guy who knows the process can move to a manual machine pretty easy. A manual guy can go to cnc with learning just code. The core of it is in the process.

A programmer or button pusher is no different then a manual operator. He can do exactly what he was told to do. He can punch in the same code he has every day, or what ever is on the sheet of paper. Just like an operator can turn the same taper he turned last week. Or run any part someone else sets up.

I believe a real cnc machinist can get on a manual an figure it out as he understands whats on the drawing, where to start, how many processes he can do in a single set up, and when something on the drawing simply aint right.

I also dont think machinist are going away. What has gone away is apprenticeships. Now you go to tech school or just find a job, learn a base set of skills. Then after years of on the job training, if you soak up everything you can, you ask everything you can, you step out your comfort zone, and most important you have the aptitude, you will eventually be a machinist. And one would be a fool to discount the need to learn manual work. For repairs and piece work, it will never be easier or faster to do cnc over a manual. 

On paper I would say you need to be able to cut threads to be a machinist. But in today's world, a true cnc machinist maybe never had to do it on a manual. But he will know the process and have the aptitude to learn it in very short order. I have every intention on one day being a machinist. Both manual and cnc. At 35yr of age, I hope that means this trade and skill wont die for at least another 40yrs. And if my son continues down the road he's on, maybe another 80yr out of him.


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## Downunder Bob

Cheeseking said:


> Not sure if there's any way to quantify how common it is but you would certainly think anyone calling themselves a machinist by trade would be able to single point thread on a manual lathe.  I am a lowly  engineer that taught myself how to thread in my home shop by recalling what little I retained from HS machine shop - remember that?? - and from books describing the procedure.  It's becoming a worn out saw but true machinists that just "get it" and have a passion for the job are getting harder and harder to find.   Im sure many of the people here on this board fit that description even if they are not machinists by trade.



I certainly struggle with the concept that a "Machinist" doesn't know how to screwcut on a lathe. I haven't had the need for it for quite a while, but I'm sure when the job comes up I'll still know how. I stil have some old 55Deg and 60 deg hand ground HSS tools from when I was an apprentice. I'll be pleased to put tehm to good use , when the time comes.


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## Bill Gruby

The original post is dated May, 2013, Nice to see someone digging around. WOW

"Billy G"


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## Cheeseking

Internet never forgets! 
I still have a pc of 5/8" stock somewhere I use to practice on.   Never forget my first attempt resulted in fairly decent LH threads


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## Downunder Bob

Bill Gruby said:


> How I earned the title "Machinist" (4 years -- or 8000 hours.)
> 
> A true machinist (IMHO) would not pass off any operation to another unless it were absolutely necessary. By that I mean he can do it all. That is old school. Every operation was taught in the apprenticeship. The last part of my apprenticeship was to be handed a print. You go from there with no help. You performed all operations. That included threading and anything else that was on the print. You had 8 hrs. to complete it. Then and only then would you be allowed to take the Journeymans Exam.
> 
> "Billy G"



Similar story Billy G, Although our apprenticeships here in downunder were 5 years back then, early 60's. I was very lucky doing mine in  a large toolroom of a decent sized manufacturing plant, typically 800 people on 3 shifts around the clock. The toolromm was staffed by from 12 to 16 toolmakers and 8 apprenticeses. 

It was here under the guidance of these master toolmakers, 2 leading hands and a foreman we learnt our trade. Out of the 8 apprentices only myself and one other were selected to do the extra year to become toolmakers. Of the remaing 6 , 4 passed as Fitter and turners, the last two only passed as machinists, their fitting skills were not sufficient, some guys wou;d pass out as fitters but not turners (machinists). 

To become a toolmaker in the final year,  after having been selected for the course. We were given some hands on instruction of how to design various tools that were used in the production shop. These could be stamping or press dies, special machining tools. cams for operating machines in that age before CNC. And always lots of assembly jigs. Then the final test we would be given a drawing from the engineering drawing shop for a finished part and we had to design and make the tool that would make the part. By the end of the year, having designed and made 3 or 4 such tools we would be given our certificate of proficiency as a Fitter & Turner / Toolmaker.

It was a great training, I'll always remember how lucky I was to have got a place in such a great shop. Many of my friends that were in other shops never had the chance to become toolmakers or to experience the number and variety of machines that we had.


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## Mark_f

I went through a lot to be a Master Machinist. I do not consider CNC operators to be machinists. That is just MY opinion.

I can respect the CNC world as I had to learn to program, operate, and service all systems on CNC machines as an engineer, but in my opinion, you have to have learned to do everything by manual machine to be a machinist. The operator didn't make the part, the machine did and the machine couldn't do it without the programmer. They are a special talent in their own field but I cant call them machinists. They are machine operators and programmers. I worked in both worlds and that is just MY opinion.

I learned a lot and done a lot as a machinist over the years. Probably forgot more than some even know. Now as an old person, I don't know what to do with the knowledge. I play in a shop beside my house and make tools I don't know if I will use. I t is getting hard to decide what to make anymore as I have most everything I need. A machinist is a dying breed.


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## Downunder Bob

mark_f said:


> I went through a lot to be a Master Machinist. I do not consider CNC operators to be machinists. That is just MY opinion.
> 
> I can respect the CNC world as I had to learn to program, operate, and service all systems on CNC machines as an engineer, but in my opinion, you have to have learned to do everything by manual machine to be a machinist. The operator didn't make the part, the machine did and the machine couldn't do it without the programmer. They are a special talent in their own field but I cant call them machinists. They are machine operators and programmers. I worked in both worlds and that is just MY opinion.
> 
> I learned a lot and done a lot as a machinist over the years. Probably forgot more than some even know. Now as an old person, I don't know what to do with the knowledge. I play in a shop beside my house and make tools I don't know if I will use. I t is getting hard to decide what to make anymore as I have most everything I need. A machinist is a dying breed.



I have to agree with you Mark. Interestingly one of my old mates, he was a fellow apprentice with me back in the early 60's A few years after we finished our apprenticeships, he took a job as a machine tool salesman, then a fewyears later the company he worked for began importing some of the very eraly CNC machines from Italy. They sent him to Italy to learn how to program them. 

Shortly after he returned home as a CNC programmer he sold a few of these machines to the very same trade school that we had studied at. He also got the job to teach the same teachers we'd had, how to programe the machines, so they could then teach the new students. The world was changing.

He often said that it was not real machining, he always preferred the hands on way. And yet he made quite a bit of money as a contract programmer after hours.


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## T Bredehoft

When I began my apprenticeship in the early 1970's I had to put in so many hundred hours in each of the several machines in the Tool Room. No CNC. First was a shaper, I don't remember after that but threading certainly was included. Ten years later I changed employers, my T & D card got me the job, but I had to prove my worth. I spent four months doing nothing but cutting threads. 7/8 to 2 1/8" diameter, appropriate pitches on a medium sized Monarch. All done in what we called EDT 150, which turns out to be extruded 4150, half hard, ground and polished shafting. I had to mike every thread. At one point the foreman (management, not skilled) pointed out that my thread wouldn't screw into a particular cross-head. Half an hour later we ran a new tap through the cross-head and my rod screwed in easily. Not a word of "Oops". Anyway, times got hard, (the company  had a policy of no lay-offs) and they took on what ever they could find. A job came along they couldn't figure out how to do, gave it to me. Seems this part needed to be threaded onto the bottom of a drill string in the oil field.  I got out my Machinery's Handbook, looked up oil well threads, set the taper on the lathe and chased the threads, specifications to the book. The part never came back, I guess it worked. Ten years later I could have done it on one of our Mazak CNC lathes.I was also programming retrofitted machines, punching in code to the controller, no adaptive software. I had written code to input alpha-numeric characters, sub-routines I could call up to put lettering on the parts. The point being that we adapt to what we have to do, learning as we go.


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## Robert LaLonde

I suspect a job shop that does one off custom jobs, repairs, and things of that nature would quite likely benefit from having a manual lathe or two with guys who know how to use them, but a shop that only does production runs may not.  If somebody brings in a blueprint or CAD file for something they want a hundred or a thousand of there is no benefit to manually machining one.  They may do test runs of one or two on the CNC machines, but they want to know it will run and meet spec on those.  Not do it manually.  

Where I usually see manual machines is in fabrication shops where they are creating parts and machinery.  I actually had a shop foreman in a fab shop tell me he was thinking about selling their CNC mill and getting another manual mill because they had more use for it.  Of course he was wrong.  They had shelves full of CNCed parts they used all the time.  They just didn't need to run their CNC everyday to make them.  They would run a bunch of parts in a day, and then put them on the shelf until they got low again.  Fortunately the owner was aware.  

Quite often I can make a single part or do a part repair or modification on the manual lathe (or mill) much faster than I could CNC it.  But if I made two of them I'd break even on time, and three or more would fly by CNC.  Just this week I wished I had a decent manual mill in my shop twice.  It took me longer to write the code to do a job than it did to run the job on the big (for me) CNC Mill.  

I think anybody who gets paid as their primary source of income to machine parts can can call themselves a machinist by trade.  I'm ok at high speed CNC milling aluminum, but roughing out basic steel parts makes me nervous.  I still consider myself a machinist.  A self taught, shade tree, hack machinist, but still a machinist.


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## Robert LaLonde

"I think you have to have learned to do everything manually first to be consider a machinist."  

I have to disagree.  By that logic you should also have spent a complete apprenticeship in a blacksmith's shop and learned every aspect of forging and black smithing before being allow to start your apprenticeship as a machinist.

I do agree that many machine operators are not what I would consider machinists.  If they only know how to clamp a part in the vise, press start, and call for help if something goes sideways then they are machine operators.  

By comparison a small engine mechanic is still a mechanic even if he has never torn down a big block.  The guy who used to run an impact it to attach bumpers to trucks in 1976 at GM is not even though he worked on a machine that happens to hold a big block.


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## Nogoingback

Bob La Londe said:


> I suspect a job shop that does one off custom jobs, repairs, and things of that nature would quite likely benefit from having a manual lathe or two with guys who know how to use them, but a shop that only does production runs may not.



My son has a part time job in a shop like that.  They do no production work at all.  What they do is custom fabrication, prototypes, machine repair or anything else that walks in the door that isn't a production
job.  They have CNC machines and use them if needed, but the majority of their work is on manual machines.  Their boss is both an engineer and a machinist, so can provide design advice as well.   The range of 
skills and the wide variety of work they produce is amazing: they produce large welded assemblies and tiny parts for surgeons.  Those guys are machinists!


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## dpb

After 25 years in retail management, I grew weary.  I quit, and decided to do something completely different.  I took a year of machining at a community college, manual & CNC.  I also bought a lathe.  In order to get my certificate, I had to work in the trade for at least a short period of time.  I'm currently 3 months into a job as a CNC operator / set up guy.
My co-workers know far more than I about running the machines, devising work holding solutions, and solving finish problems.  I know how, at a beginning / intermediate level, to run a manual lathe and mill, single point threads are a piece of cake, though I haven't yet done tapered threads.  I don't think any of my coworkers have any idea how to do such a thing, but they are certainly more skilled at their jobs, than I am.


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## Silverbullet

If you didn't go through years of apprenticeship your NO MACHINIST. Those of us who worked our way into being a machinist/ tool + die maker. We earned it and the respect it deserves , college graduates expect it . We earned it. So if your a CNC operator don't class your self as a machinist. It's earned not plug into. You may no computer operations but don't say your a machinist. I'm proud of the years I spent earning mine.


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## Robert LaLonde

Silverbullet said:


> If you didn't go through years of apprenticeship your NO MACHINIST. Those of us who worked our way into being a machinist/ tool + die maker. We earned it and the respect it deserves , college graduates expect it . We earned it. So if your a CNC operator don't class your self as a machinist. It's earned not plug into. You may no computer operations but don't say your a machinist. I'm proud of the years I spent earning mine.



So you are saying you demand respect for your knowledge and skills, but refuse to give it for different knowledge and skills that can produce the same or superior parts because you learned how to do it by being spoon fed knowledge over the course of decades?  Ok.  I recognized that you think your are superior, and I disagree.

If you want to know what I would consider a machinist if I was to take such a superior attitude.  It would be the person who is capable of going from concept to finished functional part with the skills, knowledge, and equipment that they have available.  Perhaps is smart enough to ask for help if they really need it, and figure it out for themselves if they don't.  No more.  No less.

However, I am not taking such a superior attitude and recognize that skills learned through repetition and personal tutelage over the course of years also have value.


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## Robert LaLonde

I would note that a tool & die maker is a machinist, but a machinist is not necessarily a tool and die maker.


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## Mark_f

A couple of people said it best here. They are DIFFERENT skill sets. A machinist can run any machine in the shop. Lathe, mill (vertical and horizontal), surface grinder,drill press, ect. His is a dying job. The CNC machine requires a machine operator and a programmer (which can be the same person). They are not machinists, but they are a CNC operator and/or programmer. That is their title and skill set, which is different than a machinist. The CNC job does not require a 2 or 4 year apprenticeship. It requires a class and some training. Most machinists can't do CNC. They should each be proud of their title and skill, but they are not the same. One is a machinist, which has different levels (apprenticeship, jorneyman, Master. The other is a CNC operator and/ or programmer. The modern world needs CNC specialists, but not so many machinists. It is kind of like the old fashion draftsman and CAD drafter. They are not the same but the end result is the same. ( Oh crap.... That may start another argument.) It is called Progress.


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## Robert LaLonde

LOL.  Oh, but that's not what was said.  They said if you didn't serve years as an apprentice you are not a machinist.  That equates to saying (among other things) those who learned it on their own or partially from are inferior and are not and can never be called machinists.  This would include some of the people they apprenticed under.  LOL.

I also refuse recognize that a CNC machinist is not a machinist.


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## T Bredehoft

Lets all take a deep breath and step back from this. Come back tomorrow and look how it appears. 

Nuf Said. And I'm a Tool Maker.


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## Silverbullet

Bob La Londe said:


> So you are saying you demand respect for your knowledge and skills, but refuse to give it for different knowledge and skills that can produce the same or superior parts because you learned how to do it by being spoon fed knowledge over the course of decades?  Ok.  I recognized that you think your are superior, and I disagree.
> 
> If you want to know what I would consider a machinist if I was to take such a superior attitude.  It would be the person who is capable of going from concept to finished functional part with the skills, knowledge, and equipment that they have available.  Perhaps is smart enough to ask for help if they really need it, and figure it out for themselves if they don't.  No more.  No less.
> 
> However, I am not taking such a superior attitude and recognize that skills learned through repetition and personal tutelage over the course of years also have value.


Kind of a snoty reply , I've always offered free help to anyone . Have you ,, I've worked with individuals with disabilities yet have high learning capabilities. I'm no better then another , but I guess you are , with your knowledge you don't need ours I guess. If a person earns a degree he's earned masters degree. If you go to school for four years and nite school for two more , and have to work at the job you chose then you earned it . If your a CNC operator you earned it. But as for being superior nope neither you nor I am superior. The best knowledge is given mostly by watching and learning then asking.


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## Robert LaLonde

Snotty reply to a snotty attitude.  

Rest of reply deleted as you wouldn't get it anyway.


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## Tony Wells

You guys are tromping on several of our founding principles. Knock it off. It's arguments like this, which are based mostly on personal opinion or feelings that alienate people and cause many problems on forums. It won't be tolerated here.


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## 682bear

I went through a machining certification program at a local technical college... under the instruction of an 'old school' machinist/ instructor... I learned how to run all of the manual machines...

I have worked as a machinist for @25 years... at one time, I applied at a company that had different 'skill levels' (machinist 1, machinist 2, machinist 3, and senior machinist)... when you apply, they give you a 2 hour written exam and your score determines what level you hire in at...

I scored well enough to hire in as a senior machinist... and found out that most everyone in the shop shuns guys that do that. Nobody would talk to me, help me, tell me where the break room was, etc... I worked there 10 weeks and moved on to a better job...

I have had to chase threads on a lathe once in the last 20 years... and that was at home on a rifle barrel tenon... but I'm confident that I could do it if I had to, but I would be slow at it the first time.

I haven't touched a surface grinder since I got out of school... I simply have not been tasked with having to operate one... I think I would have to face a learning curve to relearn that.

Nowadays, I spend most of my time programming and operating CNC vertical lathes.

If I'm not considered a machinist because of that, well, so be it... I take a lot of pride in the work that I do, anyway...

-Bear


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## MarkM

I find it very hard to believe a machinist can t cut a thread.  A staple of the trade.  Machining is machining.  If you push buttons and don t have the logic behind the start button I would consider you an operator.  A cnc programmer needs the machining knowledge just as a manual machinist.  They are applied in different ways but it is still metal removal.  For the life of me my opinion is no way are you a machinist if you cant cut a thread but that s just me and I am just about fifty with a screw machine and general machinist background.


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## juiceclone

[QUOTE="6
I have worked as a machinist for @25 years...

I have had to chase threads on a lathe once in the last 20 years... and that was at home on a rifle barrel tenon... but I'm confident that I could do it if I had to, but I would be slow at it the first time.

I haven't touched a surface grinder since I got out of school... I simply have not been tasked with having to operate one... I think I would have to face a learning curve to relearn that."
END QUOTE

Exactly... I once worked in a shop where threading simply was never needed...   I would bet the machinists there would have to "brush up" at least before threading anything of value.


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## Robert LaLonde

One of the problems with a lack of knowledge is that a modern shop has no need to teach somebody to do something unless they need that task done.  With a mobile work force and no long term loyalty between employers and employees they only teach enough to do the jobs that need to be done today.  If they teach at all.

I can cut a thread atleast 3 different ways in my shop, but in my opinion that isn't what makes me (or doesn't make me) a machinist.  Its the ability to see a problem, and convert a piece of stock into a solution.

3 ways.  Taps and dies of course.  Turning.  CNC interpolated thread milling.  (I consider rigid tapping the same as tapping.)

I can also cast/injection mold and form threads, but I would not consider those the norm.  Those are really supplemental areas of knowledge.  Not a routine part of machining.  Making the molds and cores to do that may be machining.


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## bfd

one of my apprenticeship projects was a threading project It consisted of a 3/4"-10 rh. double lead lf. 1"-8 a 3 lead lh. 1 1/4" -12 and a 4 lead lh acme with nuts to fit then the teacher added a 3/4" pipe thread to some extra stock on the end. taught me all about threading I made my apprentices do the same thing. where I worked we cut threads all the time for valve stems and nuts. also cut am 8 lead square thread on a steam turbine shaft for a labryth steam seal. what I learned as an apprentice was very helpful in later jobs. and yes I ran into machinists that could not cut threads and was asked to teach them how. I gladly helped them bill


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## BogusSVO

I have been doing machine work since 1992

I have never cut a thread other than with a tap and die

But unlike most here, I am not an Industrial machinist,  I have not developed the skill set to take a chunk of raw stock and make a part.

I come from the Automotive Machine work side, I just have to rework what the factory did

Yes I was an ASE Cert Master Machinist at one point.

BTW Thanks for having me here!


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