# Getting Started With A Lathe



## BrianT (Nov 5, 2016)

Hello all, new here, I have craftsman 109 that I have restored and I am well aware of the limitations of these machines.  It is mechanically sound, I feel it is close/good tolerances for for this type of machine.  My question is what type of material should I use to make some "practice" cuts to further dial this thing in along with my bit grinding skills.  I have been using some cold rolled w/ hss bits but I think my end results could be better.  I know these are not the best machines and I would upgrade once I find something, but in the meantime its all I got to learn the lathe a bit better, thanks!


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## mikey (Nov 5, 2016)

I suggest 6061-T6 aluminum and 12L14 mild steel. They cut easily and finish really well. New users need to succeed and these materials make it easy.


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## kingmt01 (Nov 5, 2016)

Personally I'd go to the scrap yard & find some mild steel. Look for cutoffs or something structural to increase your odds of it bring mild steel.


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## westsailpat (Nov 5, 2016)

Hi Brian , IMO and others haha cr can be hard to get a decent finish on . A friend of mine a while back told me when he cuts cr he likes to bump up the RPM and get underneath it , meaning take a deep cut . Not something we do with our hobby lathes . That's not to say we can't cut cr we just have to be a little more patient . And if you are trying to part off be really careful . When you say you are going to make practice cuts to get the 109 dialed in , what do you mean are you checking for taper ? Any how if you just want to just practice , especially your bit grinding I would stay away from cr . Alum would be my first choice maybe even Delrin or nylon , brass is cool too but really messy , and can really shoot chips to the eyeballs . Howbout' some pics of you newly restored 109 , I love the way they do those little swirls on the head stock .


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## T Bredehoft (Nov 5, 2016)

I'll second MIkey's suggestion, 12L14 is wonderful stuff, you can't turn it fast enough to burn HSS in a  109, At least under an inch diameter. Any aluminum is subject to build up on the tip of the tool, causing distress in the uninitiated. Unfortunately, it not 'throw away cheap.'


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## chips&more (Nov 5, 2016)

If this is your first go at it maybe try plastic first? As said above 12L14 for a steel selection is a good one. Don’t try hardware store bolts…Dave


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## BrianT (Nov 5, 2016)

Thanks for your suggestions guys, I have some hard plastic that I will try and pick up some 12L14.  I did consider bolts, so thanks for the warning Dave.  I will get some pictures, this 109 is an older version so it doesnt have the "swirls" on the head stock...Thanks, Brian


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## BrianT (Nov 5, 2016)

Here are a couple pictures of the 109.  I got it cheap and it was in very poor cosmetic condition, but good mechanically.  The motor that came with the lathe was a very old 1/3hp Packard that had some issues, so I used a 1/4hp Dayton which is probably a better match.  I have the motor mounts on a pipe held down "U" bolts that allow me to change the speeds and belt adjustment.  I use a little of the motor weight to keep the belt tight, seems to be ok so far.  It came with all the change gears, 4 jaw chuck, and some bits.  I was told this lathe was used in an automotive garage for winding armatures.  It was a fun project and came out well, someday I hope to find a lathe a bit more substantial.


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## kingmt01 (Nov 5, 2016)

So why not use bolts? Other then the heads being hard I think they turn quite nice. I often use bolts for projects. Other then the heads being hard they are also off centered with the shaft.

I also shorten bolts in my lathe. Screw a couple of nuts in loosely. Mount the bolt in so the two nuts line up with the heads & cut to size. I use a file to taper the edge & then a triangle file ran through the threads a few times to clean everything up.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 6, 2016)

the lathe will perform well on but not limited to delrin, nylon, aluminum,  steels 12L14, 1018,&  1024 
the steels (other than 12L14) may require some polishing to bring to an acceptable finish.
HSS can be employed to cut all of the materials listed, and many more too
good luck, you'll have hundreds of hours of fun!

onlinemetals
on ebay has some relatively inexpensive materials

your local metal recycler often sells materials

a peeled eye often finds machines or cars as foundations of material reclamation


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## Tozguy (Nov 6, 2016)

Brian, good job on sprucing up the lathe. Its a looker now.
Hope you enjoy running it. Please let us know how it goes.


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## BrianT (Nov 6, 2016)

Thanks Tozguy!  It was a fun project, people that saw it before thought it was silly to even bother with it.  I have some learning to do all in all, I am not totally in the dark about lathes as I have used them in shops I have worked in, but it was just trial and error as no one else seemed to know what they were doing either!


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## royesses (Nov 6, 2016)

Welcome to the best hobby machinist forum in the world.  Very nice restoration on your 109.
The 12L14 is perfect for learning the machine. It machines easily with a nice finish and helps to learn about the grinding of tools. Small changes make a big difference in the finish. It polishes up bright and shiny on a buffer. Just not good for welding due to the lead content. When the guys and gals here told me about it I ordered some from onlinemetals and have to say it is my favorite metal to machine. Acetal delrin is also easy to machine and the finish very sensitive to tool angles. I really like working with it. My little 7x16 minilathe loves these two materials.

Roy


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 6, 2016)

Nice!...All the above suggestions for stock are good (mild steels, aluminum and plastics)....but believe it or not, with the proper speeds and feeds (and smaller cuts)....and proper cutter (tool) angles, and maybe some elbow grease keeping the cross slide and/or compound from sucking in (if needed),  yoose' can even cut prehard toolsteels....Cheers and have fun!


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## kingmt01 (Nov 6, 2016)

Harden steel actually cuts really pretty & is probably easier to get to a spot on target. But... It can also be a pain until you learn what speed to run it at. I've burnt a few pieces of carbide up in unknown metal. 

Rust is much harder then the metal so try to get below it when you take the first cut when you can. I usually try to take that first cut with a junk cutter to remove rust then switch to something sharp to finish.


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## Propfool (Nov 6, 2016)

BrianT said:


> Hello all, new here, I have craftsman 109 that I have restored and I am well aware of the limitations of these machines.  It is mechanically sound, I feel it is close/good tolerances for for this type of machine.  My question is what type of material should I use to make some "practice" cuts to further dial this thing in along with my bit grinding skills.  I have been using some cold rolled w/ hss bits but I think my end results could be better.  I know these are not the best machines and I would upgrade once I find something, but in the meantime its all I got to learn the lathe a bit better, thanks!



A good source of highly finished mild steel for turning practice is the brightly finished rod in automotive shock absorbers and nitrogen filled lift cylinders used for hood supports and rear deck lids on SUV's. All should be free for the asking at any auto repair shop.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BrianT (Nov 6, 2016)

Propfool said:


> A good source of highly finished mild steel for turning practice is the brightly finished rod in automotive shock absorbers and nitrogen filled lift cylinders used for hood supports and rear deck lids on SUV's. All should be free for the asking at any auto repair shop.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Interesting,  I wonder if pneumatic cylinders would use the same type of steel for the shaft.  Some of these shafts can be over 1" diameter.  I change these out regularly at my work and they are just getting tossed in the garbage.


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## mikey (Nov 6, 2016)

Whatever materials you choose, that is still a pretty small lathe. The key will be to stick with HSS tooling and get really familiar with tool geometry. As Roy(esses) said, small changes make a big difference ...


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## Propfool (Nov 6, 2016)

BrianT said:


> Interesting,  I wonder if pneumatic cylinders would use the same type of steel for the shaft.  Some of these shafts can be over 1" diameter.  I change these out regularly at my work and they are just getting tossed in the garbage.



Take one home and see. I would bet $100 of my wife's money that the pneumatic cylinder shafts are micro finished mild steel.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BrianT (Nov 6, 2016)

Propfool said:


> Take one home and see. I would bet $100 of my wife's money that the pneumatic cylinder shafts are micro finished mild steel.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I will need to look closer at these shafts if nothing else a way to collect some material for future projects.  I may be wrong but I had thought some of these types of shafts/pistons had a chrome plating.


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## John Hasler (Nov 6, 2016)

kingmt01 said:


> Harden steel actually cuts really pretty & is probably easier to get to a spot on target. But... It can also be a pain until you learn what speed to run it at. I've burnt a few pieces of carbide up in unknown metal.
> 
> Rust is much harder then the metal so try to get below it when you take the first cut when you can. I usually try to take that first cut with a junk cutter to remove rust then switch to something sharp to finish.


Take the rust off with a wire brush and/or sand-blasting and/or chemicals.

The most frustrating stuff to machine in my experience is the unknowmium that my ag scrap is made of.  It *tears*.


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## kingmt01 (Nov 7, 2016)

Wire will usually knocks the flakes off but still leaves behind that hard oxide layer I'm talking about. If you're scratching it instead of cutting below it then it's hard on the cutting edge.


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## John Hasler (Nov 7, 2016)

kingmt01 said:


> Wire will usually knocks the flakes off but still leaves behind that hard oxide layer I'm talking about. If you're scratching it instead of cutting below it then it's hard on the cutting edge.


HCl will make short work of that oxide.  Several other chemical treatments will deal with it more slowly.


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 7, 2016)

I guess when I talk about cutting some of the hard stuff like prehard tool steels, I should add I have some lathe HSS cutters with severe relief angles I use for plastics.
But I have a diamond face wheel (I like"resin" bond rather than the metal bonds) on a rigged up pedestal grinder I bought to sharpen carbide including my boring bars, some carbide endmills, and mostly a drawer full of 1/4", 3/8, and 1/2 carbide toolbits I have collected over the years...(I don't use insert stuff on conventional(manual) lathes) I have quite a few and various grade Kenametals up to the K11's  but my favorites are the old Carbaloy 883's that I use for about everything except the prehards that I use the best (IMO) for steels that are around rc18 up to rc32!): The old Carbaloy 999's


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## Tozguy (Nov 7, 2016)

BrianT said:


> I will need to look closer at these shafts if nothing else a way to collect some material for future projects.  I may be wrong but I had thought some of these types of shafts/pistons had a chrome plating.



All of these shafts are probably not created equal. The 3/4'' plus shaft from a McPherson strut I tried is very hard to cut even with carbide. The shaft was shiny but it was not chrome. My hunch is that it is induction hardened for about 1/8th and ground to very tight tolerances. Considering the job these shafts have to do I can't imagine that any other hydraulic shaft would be easier to cut on a lathe either.

The centre I made from the strut was too hard for the chuck jaws to hold fast so a groove had to be ground near the tip to take a circlip. The clip acts as a stop so the centre doesn't slip into the chuck. As you can see from the picture, the taper could not be cut full length because the last 1/8th on the outside of the shaft was just too hard.


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## kingmt01 (Nov 7, 2016)

John Hasler said:


> HCl will make short work of that oxide.  Several other chemical treatments will deal with it more slowly.


OK

It's rarely that I need to just skim the surface. If I do then I just do it. I didn't say it won't cut at all. However I still think it's better to take the first cut more aggressively if you have the material.


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## John Hasler (Nov 7, 2016)

kingmt01 said:


> OK
> 
> It's rarely that I need to just skim the surface. If I do then I just do it. I didn't say it won't cut at all. However I still think it's better to take the first cut more aggressively if you have the material.


Oh, sure.  If you're going to cut the stuff get under it.  Sometimes, though,  the stock I work with is so out of round or pitted that the depth of cut required to get under the crust is more than my machines can handle.


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## kingmt01 (Nov 7, 2016)

That's understandable. I also run into times I don't have enough stock to get under it. I can only make a few bearing surfaces. We just call those oil passages.


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## ericc (Nov 7, 2016)

If you have any offcuts of PVC pipe in the garage, these will get you started, and they are really cheap.  I made my first cut on a 109 using a junk piece of aluminum (small!) and a junk wood chisel levered against the tool rest.  It worked fine just to see what was going on.  These lathes will cut steel, but you will have to watch very carefully for issues.  There is a lot of low quality stuff that will goof up when you are cutting steel, and the tools need to be sharp and ground correctly.  There is not much margin for error.


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 7, 2016)

Yes, those prehard steels that I like; I "like" Maxel instead of Cold Rolled (seems to come in anywhere from around rc 10-18 (really 4130 to 4140), and  Maxel 3 1/2 (around rc28) and Impax Supreme (rc30 to 32) (both really 4150) all have some pretty nasty scale on them....I guess all new stock prehard is that way but its the best stuff for "general purpose", support/compression applications...and pretty good for wear.
I don't feel the scale is much worse than crummy old hot rolled  (LOL) (At least to a carbide cutter)...But it's best to properly get that dust off your ways and surfaces eh!?

IMO A2, D2, and S7 are the best all around Tool Steels (in that order with the % of "stuff" like chrome in them),...They have no scale, cut nice, then Heat Treat (for/when and the application usually is wanted/needed) They H.T. with a torch (0xy/acet.) ifn' one has no oven and you can hit your rc hardness up to 58-60 (even 62 with S7) with practice (the colors man, the colors! LOL) and air harden with, well, air from a compressor then you draw back a little bit (temper)...and they return to size (and shape ifn laid down or hung right) so one can just "shine up" with abrasive "paper" ifn one doesn't have Machine Tool Grinders or a bead/sand blaster...(Note: bead/sandblasting also relieves/helps the stresses after Heat Treat)...For small rounds, I like them better than drill blank too.

...all the above also come in plate for milling jobs etc (and plate can and usually is ordered flat ground)....
...the prehards don't like to return to size ifn' they get hot (they like to stay wherever they grow to)
...and all the above can work harden so ya' gotta watch that on the tiny and small stuff

I see/perceive you are starting out but even so, the above stuff from everybody is all good to know and combobulate in the whole thang"


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## BrianT (Nov 7, 2016)

ericc said:


> If you have any offcuts of PVC pipe in the garage, these will get you started, and they are really cheap.  I made my first cut on a 109 using a junk piece of aluminum (small!) and a junk wood chisel levered against the tool rest.  It worked fine just to see what was going on.  These lathes will cut steel, but you will have to watch very carefully for issues.  There is a lot of low quality stuff that will goof up when you are cutting steel, and the tools need to be sharp and ground correctly.  There is not much margin for error.


That is what I am really concerned with, the limitations of the lathe along with my novice tool grinding skills and then throw in difficult to machine materials to make matters worse where there is already small "margin for error".  I thank everyone for there insight and the comments will be something I will refer to in the future regarding the different types of steels.  That is also an area need to develop knowledge in.


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## mikey (Nov 7, 2016)

BrianT said:


> That is what I am really concerned with, the limitations of the lathe along with my novice tool grinding skills and then throw in difficult to machine materials to make matters worse where there is already small "margin for error".  I thank everyone for there insight and the comments will be something I will refer to in the future regarding the different types of steels.  That is also an area need to develop knowledge in.



Brian, your little lathe is more capable than you think. I started on a Sherline, which is much smaller than yours and I cut damned near anything I need to on it. You're a hobby guy who can use the appropriate material for the intended use. If you need mild steel then use 12L14 or 1215 instead of 4140. If you need an aluminum spacer then use 6061 instead of 7075. Over time, you learn to use the right stuff for the job and you also learn how to cut each one of them with the lathe you have. Don't stress about it - it will come in time.

If anything, focus on learning to grind tools to reduce cutting forces for each material group you plan to work with. My little Sherline will take a 0.050" deep cut on 12L14 mild steel without even slowing down if I use a modified cutter. I can easily take a 0.10" deep cut on 6061 aluminum (0.20" reduction in diameter). Not that I do this routinely but I can with the right tool. That same tool will take off 0.0005" to size it and will produce a very fine finish. I use a lot of 1144 semi-hardened steel on that little lathe and have no problems at all with it. Same with O-1 and other tools steels and stainless steels. Your lathe, with the right tools, will probably be able to do quite well with most commonly used materials. 

The smaller the lathe, the faster you run into the power and rigidity limits of the lathe. Your tools are what will determine what those limits are. I recommend that you stay away from carbide; you cannot run fast enough to use it effectively and cutting forces will be too high. This applies to brazed as well as inserted carbide. Yeah, it will cut but not as well as a good HSS tool will. 

I suggest you stay with easily machined materials and learn to grind tools. Learn how your lathe feels and sounds when its cutting happily and what to do when it isn't. Go slowly, learn to be accurate and learn how each material likes to be cut. 

You'll be fine - we all started from the same place.


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## kingmt01 (Nov 7, 2016)

That is some dandy cuts Mikey. I'd be interested to see what you mean by modified tools. I had trouble with the work climbing up in the tool when using my HF 7x. I didn't know much about grinding tools then ether tho.

I ended up damaging the late before I ever learnt to use it & upgraded to a larger lathe that could handle my inability better. 

The lathe is still damaged but I still use it at times when I'm working right beside of it & need to spin something. It only gets used for eyeball tolerance cuts anymore.


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## BrianT (Nov 7, 2016)

Thanks for the good advice Mike!  And all the advice from everyone!  When I got this I was not looking for a lathe though I have always wanted one.  After reading much online about these machines you start to get discouraged to even put much effort in to one.  What I really wanted was an opportunity to develop some basic skills and it seems this machine will allow me to do that.  Funny thing was I was contemplating looking at another, different lathe this afternoon, I  really do not want to refurbish/repair another machine as the whole point of this was to learn machining skills and not machine repair.  So for the time being I will stick with the 109 and focus on the elements you guys described above...Thanks!


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## mikey (Nov 7, 2016)

kingmt01 said:


> That is some dandy cuts Mikey. I'd be interested to see what you mean by modified tools. I had trouble with the work climbing up in the tool when using my HF 7x. I didn't know much about grinding tools then ether tho.
> 
> I ended up damaging the late before I ever learnt to use it & upgraded to a larger lathe that could handle my inability better.
> 
> The lathe is still damaged but I still use it at times when I'm working right beside of it & need to spin something. It only gets used for eyeball tolerance cuts anymore.



You might want to take a look at this thread. There are tools I, and other guys, have ground and shown.

http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/turning-tool-and-facing-tool-questions.36687/

You are right. A bigger lathe with more power and rigidity is more forgiving of tool geometry but a modified tool will cut even better, even on that bigger lathe. I have an Emco 11 lathe now but still use the exact same tools I used on my Sherline and they work great. 

Tool geometry makes a difference because cutting forces are cutting forces and when we shape the tool to reduce those forces we cut deeper, size more accurately and finish finer. Quite often, a good tool will enable the user to double the depth of cut he can normally take on a small lathe like a Sherline. 

I honestly feel that tool grinding is becoming a lost skill. Only us hobby guys do it much anymore so its sort of up to us to keep it alive. Dunno - you think?


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## BrianT (Nov 7, 2016)

mikey said:


> You might want to take a look at this thread. There are tools I, and other guys, have ground and shown.
> 
> http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/turning-tool-and-facing-tool-questions.36687/
> 
> ...


The last statement is my thoughts exactly!  I have worked with people that were amazed I could sharpen a drill bit on a grinder, in the past they just told the boss they need new drill bits.  An old timer showed me how to do that and I have practiced through the years and have gotten good at it.  So learning those skills and keeping them alive is of much interest to me as well.


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 7, 2016)

Uh oh, I agree with all for starts but respectfully disagree Mikey with your views on carbide (per one of my my previous posts) especially all the diff. grades of brazed on carbide (cutting forces too high...will cut but not as good)...??
...generally slower rpm (for harder, tougher steels depending on the stock diameter of course) or mid to higher rpm ("softer" steels) and a little different speeds and feeds (all sfm practice and use) and with a little nose radius you won't chip em' even with a somewhat "sloppy" spindle....perty much the same relief angles as using HSS per material (on steels) and they stay dead sharper many times longer (as pertaining to cutting forces)...boring, OD and ID grooving, parting (cut off), OD and ID threading...I again say yes to carbide!... (But for starters and not having to have a diamond wheel, yes to HSS)... and HSS much less hard on the edge of a diamond wheel ifn' one likes to snag on a chip breaker...Smiley Face here.


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## kingmt01 (Nov 7, 2016)

I too sharpen those cheap carbide tools with happy results but not knowing this guys actual lathe & sharping carbide is a whole subject to itself.

I wish I knew something about sharpening carbide when I first started using the little HF 7x. But I didn't try until after upgrading lathes. I believe all I've ever used in that little lathe is carbide. I didn't till recently get done hhs that small.


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 7, 2016)

Cheap!? LOL (Smiley face here)...HSS cut plastic good and make for good little parallels (Smiley face here)


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## mikey (Nov 7, 2016)

Christian Poulsen said:


> Uh oh, I agree with all for starts but respectfully disagree Mikey with your views on carbide (per one of my my previous posts) especially all the diff. grades of brazed on carbide (cutting forces too high...will cut but not as good)...??
> ...generally slower rpm (for harder, tougher steels depending on the stock diameter of course) or mid to higher rpm ("softer" steels) and a little different speeds and feeds (all sfm practice and use) and with a little nose radius you won't chip em' even with a somewhat "sloppy" spindle....perty much the same relief angles as using HSS per material (on steels) and they stay dead sharper many times longer (as pertaining to cutting forces)...boring, OD and ID grooving, parting (cut off), OD and ID threading...I again say yes to carbide!... (But for starters and not having to have a diamond wheel, yes to HSS)... and HSS much less hard on the edge of a diamond wheel ifn' one likes to snag on a chip breaker...Smiley Face here.



Sorry Chris, we'll have to agree to disagree. On a small lathe with limited rigidity, HSS will outperform carbide consistently. If we are talking about 5-7 degree relief angles and little to no back or side rake, then maybe a HSS ground like that will be similar to a brazed carbide or inserted carbide tool. BUT if I grind a 15 degree side and end relief and maybe 15-16 degrees of side rake and 10-15 degrees of back rake on a HSS tool with a 1/64" nose radius I bet you money it will out cut that brazed carbide tool on steel, aluminum, brass, Delrin or stainless. It will stay sharp a good long time and takes a few seconds to hone back to paper-slicing sharpness.

Too many of us think of a HSS tool as a tool with standard angles; I don't. I am not saying carbide won't cut. I am saying that a properly ground HSS tool will outperform it on a small, less rigid lathe. Of this, I am certain. Here is a HSS tool that is taking a 0.050" deep, chatter-free roughing cut in mild steel on a little Sherline lathe. Not only did it cut it easily in one pass, it was accurate. I ran the same test cut with a very high quality inserted carbide tool and a standard HSS tool ground specifically for steel and both struggled to make this depth of cut on this lathe. 




So, big, rigid CNC lathe running at 10K rpm, yeah, carbide would work great. Small little lathe with 1/4HP - no, not as good.


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## bfd (Nov 7, 2016)

what do you have to machine? cut it! its all for an education. what you like to cut and don't like to cut will be your first education. alum and plastic is too easy and expensive. grab what you have and chuck it up and take a cut see what happens blue chips with hss slow down. its hard to get a good finish with some mild steels 12l14 l stands for leaded. added to the steel to ease in machining and get a better finish for production. unless you order a specific material you probably wont know exactly what you are cutting. practice with what you have. learn by this. experiment go faster, slower more feed less feed deeper cuts or less deep. find out what your lathe likes and what it doesn't. bill


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 7, 2016)

Yes yoose' were right the 1st time Mikey (agree to disagree!) Smiley Face here!...4 Monarch EE's, 3 Hardinge HLVS, 1 Rivett...+ various "garage" lathes (Southbend, Logan, Lablond, Clausing, + a Logan and a Craftsman (Atlas) actually at home garage lathes...35 yrs of machining jobs and making tooling for everything from Amana microwave parts to IBM, HP, and TI chip tooling Western Electric and GE parts to Delco auto. parts to Peerless and Price Phister faucet valve parts to Space Shuttle parts to Patriot Missle parts, to armour producing tooling for the bottom of Military Humvies and Helicopters to shirt button tooling (Arrow) to Fishing pole tooling to "have you had a soft drink from McD's, Burger King or 7-11 etc. parts" (syrup and water pistons and sleeves) to kidney machines to blood machines  (Cobe lab)...to good old endline tooling (beer can pop tops) and on and on.....I ("we") used, almost exclusivly all sorts of various grades of carbide toolbits  on everything from leadloy to crs to prehard to air hardening to oil hardening, to copper and elconite to brass...on and on...same principles on/as/of edge sharpness, toughness, wear etc. and why tooling made with carbide produces up to 1 million + parts (my record on 1 Texas Instrument Toolset before it was trash LOL (170 hrs to build , fits in a shoebox) compared to the same toolset out of hard tool steel faces (30,000 parts then trash plus it starts wearing more immediatly)...
 FYI the binders in carbides (which is pressed) go from between a mix of 6% cobalt (harder than the hubs of hell, brittle, imeasurable except with metalurgy, will destroy a diamond point and won't even make a mark with a hardness tester) (% of cobalt, more or less, is the indicating factor in the hardness of carbides) to 24% that is soft down to around rc64, almost like HSS and the best toolsteels but will  "micro" contaminate everything it cuts and rubs against...There's, let me guestimate, over a 2 dozen grades (choices) of carbides (isostaticly pressed or not) for different applications.
Carbide baby! "Can't touch this" (Well, only diamond and electricity through "fancy copper" and wire will touch it right)...Another Smiley face here!
 (Uh oh, is this a friendly......ing contest over cutter material? (Yoose' know there's also newer TTZ Ceramic cutter material and braze on diamond too?!!)...
But OK and all, I'm done with this "thread" now (Hey, I heard that!)


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## mikey (Nov 7, 2016)

Great, Chris.  We ALL know carbide works in industrial applications with big, rigid, high horsepower lathes but that is not what we have here. We have a new guy with a really light lathe running at mortal speeds trying to make his first cuts. So, let me ask you. Which carbide tool or tools will outperform a well-ground HSS tool on a Craftsman 109?


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## kingmt01 (Nov 8, 2016)

Mmm. Cutting something to hard for HSS?


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## mikey (Nov 8, 2016)

There are times when carbide makes sense, even on a small lathe. I haven't run into that very often because I get to choose what I machine but sure, it can happen. In that case, I have a lot of carbide tooling for my lathes in my drawer. 

To all, I apologize if it seems that I am being obstinate about this. That is not my intention. This is not about being right, nor is it about whether HSS or carbide is better for cutting metal. It IS about the lathe on which the tooling will be used.

We are dealing with a lathe that you can pick up with one or two hands and put it on a shelf, with a motor that runs at low speeds and that is flexible enough to literally move when it encounters higher cutting forces. Our OP is also a new guy who is trying to take his first cuts on his new machine. 

I've been him and used a lathe even smaller than his. I've done numerous tooling trials with both HSS and the carbide turning tools I have so my advice isn't just pulled out of the air or off the internet. I am convinced that in this case a HSS tool will offer him a greater chance of success with his new lathe.


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## Tozguy (Nov 8, 2016)

and then there is   
http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=32&Itemid=46


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## BrianT (Nov 9, 2016)

So to follow up I have been making some cuts with aluminum I had and I ordered some 12L14.  The passes are light with minimal removal and manual feed (not engaging the lead screw), but its looking good so far.  I have been using hss bits and have a few that I believe are ground well that needed some touching up.  I need to tighten/adjust the carriage on this as there is more movement in it when cutting than I believe should be.  Im getting the 12L14 really to practice with the bit grinding, using same material to see the differences angles, setttings, speeds, etc. will make.  All I have is the 4 jaw chuck so that takes a bit of time to get that indicated properly when chucking a piece.  Thanks again for all your help.


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## mrbreezeet1 (Nov 9, 2016)

I have been using carbide, because I have not taken the time to apply myself. 
I used to be Brett good sat grinding tool steel, but have forgotten most of it. 
I am running a plain apron Logan with the wiper motor leadscrew drive conversion. 

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## mrbreezeet1 (Nov 9, 2016)

Cleopatra sorry, disregard not able to delete

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## ericc (Nov 10, 2016)

mikey said:


> Great, Chris.  We ALL know carbide works in industrial applications with big, rigid, high horsepower lathes but that is not what we have here. We have a new guy with a really light lathe running at mortal speeds trying to make his first cuts. So, let me ask you. Which carbide tool or tools will outperform a well-ground HSS tool on a Craftsman 109?



I have only used well ground HSS tools on my 109.  Well, I did quickly try one simple carbon steel tool, and I have two more in line.  They were free, and I know how to back down on the speed.  They are tricky to use, since if they get a tiny bit dull, they will immediately overheat and break down the edge.  Then all kinds of bad things can happen, like they can even dive in and snap the tool off.  You have to watch them like a hawk.

As for carbide, the only time I use it on the 109 is for parting.  It works MUCH better than HSS.  I am not really sure why, but there are a lot of reasons that people post on the Internet.  My guess is that they have a better grind.  I use one of those often-posted junk circular saw blade homemade tools.  This little thing outperforms a generic wedge type HSS tool on a 14X40 lathe.  For just about anything else, I would agree with you, Mikey.


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 10, 2016)

I wish I could show you guys my set up  (tool angles...speeds and feeds) me taking a .075 deep (.150 dia) cut with a big 1/2" 999 carbide brazed Carboloy tool bit in a KDK holder  on 3" OD prehard 4140 (Maxell 3 1/2) (scale and all), mounted in a 4 jaw on my old "garage" (10 x 24 or so) Logan...or the same thang' but using the old 883 Carboloy designation but a .125 deep cut (1/4" dia) on some 'ledloy"...but, as I have shpieled around here (this site) a few times: Along with my Jet mill, like a dummy, I sold the Logan (with its 5c collet set up and all collets up to 1"!)  and I am now on the hunt again...

Oops it's bugging me so I better peck it here....cutting "scale and all" above: That layer of scale will wear a groove on the cutting angle (face) of even that 999 carbide...(so its best to turn a skim cut under that scale 1st so's you don't have to grind the whole cutting angle face much when "touching up" the cutter (just the end with nose of the cutter)  (like some have already said here or there around here (Smiley Face here)


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 10, 2016)

...FYI I do, however, grind my angles (relief) in conjunction with cutting "like a blade" for big cuts, fast stock removal... IE the nose and angle of the cutter is negative (angled towards the tailstock (then just turn the holder to rip away (face) on wherever, whatever shoulder is left...ID boring, cut off and "grooving, threading....form cutter cutting....carbide baby!

Add: Just a liiittle touch up on the cutting angle and nose now and then on that prehard and other tough stuff...and agin', likes I've shpield around here before...gotta' have a diamond (I like a"face') wheel"around 220 grit (I like resin bond..about 1/8" or 3/16" " thick "life") for snagging that carbide and if yoose' take care of it, your kids will be using it (But a face wheel can be made flat and "ungrooved"again (ifn' you hack it up) on a surface grinder with a carborendum dressing wheel (or another diamond wheel!)


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## mikey (Nov 10, 2016)

ericc said:


> As for carbide, the only time I use it on the 109 is for parting.  It works MUCH better than HSS.  I am not really sure why, but there are a lot of reasons that people post on the Internet.  My guess is that they have a better grind.  I use one of those often-posted junk circular saw blade homemade tools.  This little thing outperforms a generic wedge type HSS tool on a 14X40 lathe.  For just about anything else, I would agree with you, Mikey.



Funny, Eric, but I've had the opposite experience. My Emco Super 11 is very tight and handles an Aloris carbide parting tool quite well but my HSS P-type blades will outperform it in almost every case other than really hard steels. On my little Sherline, a rear mounted HSS parting tool mounted upside down will cut at much, much higher speeds and no chatter.

Carbide needs more rigidity, speed and HP to work well. Most of our hobby class lathes can't keep up. Again, carbide will work; it just won't work as intended and especially on a little lathe. Big, rigid, fast lathe in a production environment? Heck, yeah, I would go with carbide in a heartbeat.

It also comes down to preference. I have SECO SCLCR tools that take CCMT and CCGT inserts that will cut most stuff on my Emco Super 11, no problem. But they cannot cut as deep, size as well or finish better than my HSS tooling in head to head tests, at least in my hands at the speeds I have available. I've taken a 0.25" deep cut on my Super 11 in 12L14 steel with a HSS general purpose tool, just to see if it will do it, and the lathe barely slows down. It's fun to see what your lathe can do but quite honestly, I don't turn this way. I use stock that is as close to the finish diameter as I can get and rough only enough to take sizing or finishing cuts. For ME, on my lathes, HSS works better in almost all cases. For others, well, that is of course a choice.


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## ericc (Nov 10, 2016)

I haven't tried a P type blade on the big lathe.  I have had two accidents, and I am kind of gun shy now.  This was with an Aloris BXA tool post, but with Chinese parting tool and holder.  The problem with a blade shattering is that sometimes the pieces fly at a pretty high speed which makes me unlikely to do much more experimentation.  Maybe another try is in order after the rear mounted tool holder is installed.  In the blacksmith shop, flying steel is taken extremely seriously.


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## mikey (Nov 10, 2016)

ericc said:


> I haven't tried a P type blade on the big lathe.  I have had two accidents, and I am kind of gun shy now.  This was with an Aloris BXA tool post, but with Chinese parting tool and holder.  The problem with a blade shattering is that sometimes the pieces fly at a pretty high speed which makes me unlikely to do much more experimentation.  Maybe another try is in order after the rear mounted tool holder is installed.  In the blacksmith shop, flying steel is taken extremely seriously.



Flying steel in ANY shop is taken seriously!!

That rear mounted tool will work vastly better for you, I suspect. Keep us posted, okay?


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 10, 2016)

Here's the Google linked pictures of both brazed carbide cutters and HSS cutters (Notice the HSS page has to steal from the carbide page) Smiley Face here!
(But granted, some of the carbide tool bit and sets pictured I wouldn't give 2 cents for....

https://www.google.com/search?q=bra...&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiByNf3vJ_QAhVklFQKHYWbBbsQsA

https://www.google.com/search?q=hss...&ved=0ahUKEwjJ8-bDvp_QAhWpv1QKHYgcAGQQsAQIGg#


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## Christian Poulsen (Nov 11, 2016)

...The general standard (and for brazed on toolbits) and I have various "C" grade (mostly Kennametal C3 through C7) that I have crossed referenced but while somewhat close, I am spoiled with just 3: My old Carboloy 666's (no, not that! LOL), 883's.....and 999's! (Which I have/you can even take small cuts (.oo5 and under)  A2, D2, S7 Heat Treated to RC 58-60)

Like HSS toolbits, you can get S7 to RC 62 if'n need harder than 58-60)...after those hardness's, next up, really, is all the carbides)...

Here are a few charts (with some cross referencing) of 3 carbide vendors mostly for machining product (just like ordering steel)...(EDM (Sink and Wire) and Grinding (Diamond Wheel is best)
...as far as lathe tools; I have used plenty of pcs. mostly to Silver Solder onto carbide rod for boring bars and onto tool steel blanks for form cutters (Sometimes pcs to replace brazed carbide on their old steel (Carboloy,Kennametal) ...and then, again of course, snag grind to what I want
http://www.vistametalsinc.com/gradecharts.htm
http://www.basiccarbide.com/grade_chart/grade-chart.html
http://www.innovativecarbide.com/icgrfx2/IC GradeChart FNL.pdf

OK, I'm done with this thread (again! LOL) that kinda' turned into HSS vs Carbide and I'm leaving with another 2 yes's (besides Yes to HSS vs some carbide cutters that I wouldn't give 2 cents for)...
Yes to HSS for Aluminum, plastics (+ micartas etc.) (Just because you can snag those severe rakes (angles) on them...
...and of course Yes to HSS ifn' one doesn't have a diamond snag grinding wheel
...otherwise: Carbide baby!


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