# CNC help needed.



## 5.56 (Nov 17, 2013)

Folks,
 I have a Hardinge ST16 Swiss screw inbound at the moment. I have zero experience with any cnc programming or machines. I am the old Logan lathe guy. Where what and how would you suggest getting started? I have a project I want to dedicate the machine to. I am located in Ohio and willing to get help. LOL email and number as follows. nickmull@yahoo.com 330-390-0021 cell.

Thanks  Nick


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## Rbeckett (Nov 17, 2013)

Nick,

A lot depends on your available electronics and mechanical skills to convert a machine.  First you must make some very important decisions such as Metric or Inch ball screws, Servo or stepper motors comes next.  Then closely followed by a number of operations to replace a bunch of components that will  not allow you to keep your tolerances in range.  So if you would like to describe to us you vatrous abilities regarding what you can do we will be glad to help you either do it yourself or find a mentor who can assist you in the actual physical work.  The majority of changing a machine over to CNC is very simple bolt on types of operations that require minmal tools and skils to do.  The few fine points come when you are adding the DRO section and maintaining your tolerance.    If I were you I would defiately look into a package type of kit if that is possible because then you will not be trying to coordinate language while managing position or vice versa.  There are a number of very knowledgeable folks here about who will be more than glad to help you out and keep you pointed in the right direction, so give the two questions I asked a bit of thought and see what you decide and we can go from their!!!!  Good luck and get ready for some real fun while you do these mads.

Bob


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## DMS (Nov 17, 2013)

I can't find much info on that machine, so not sure if it was a factory CNC machine, or if it is a manual machine you plan on converting. RBeckett brings up some good points, and knowing more information about the machine, your capabilities, and your expectations can help us guide you. You may want to peruse this thread to get started if you have not done so already

[thread]8753[/thread]

It is the "Basic CNC" thread. Lots of good information there, mostly about mechanics, and motors. Though it went into machine controls and CAM software.

If it were me, I would do some initial checking and cleanup. Make sure the axes move smoothly, check bearings and screws for wear (mount a DTI to the spindle, put the tip against something clamped to the cross slide, and push on the cross slide). After that, familiarize yourself with the machanical and electrical systems on the machine. If it was a factory original CNC machine, the controllers are often clapped out our outdated (which is why people often get deals on them). If that is the case, you will probably want to think about replacing the motor controllers and CNC control. That's probably the worst case scenario (well, broken mechanical components could be worse). Once you get the machine, see what you have and let us know, we'll be able to provide more pertinent information then.


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## DAN_IN_MN (Nov 17, 2013)

My take on the OPs post is the machine is a CNC machine and wants to learn how to run it.


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## 5.56 (Nov 18, 2013)

Dan,

 It is a Hardinge Conquest ST16 Swiss. It has a Fanuc 0T controller. It has 1960 hrs. on the analog hr. meter. It was rebuilt in 2008, Ball screws, guides, motors. It came out of a medical equipment manufacturing facility and is currently inbound on a truck and should be here tomorrow.

 I have no experience in CNC at all. But I can learn, I just need some help on where to how to go about either getting a hand or taking online course since the closest CNC school is about 90 miles away.

I am hoping the inspector will be here this morning to approve the 3 phase drop I did on my building so that AEP can set the new pole and 3 phase transformers.

As for tooling I have a no issues with purchasing what is needed with spares. I figure with the carbide jeweler saw to drop $1,500 on tooling if need be that can be bumped. 

The bar feed I picked up is an Omni Bar FSQ20 hydro. I figure with the items I am wanting to run on the unit a bar will last about 2-2 1/1 hrs.

 I need recommendations on a cad/cam program type of program to get  ideas in my head onto/into a G code to make my concept into reality instead of an idea. 

My biggest problem is that at age 58, my cup is full, and I am going to have to figure out what to pour out to make room for new knowledge! LOL Old dog and new tricks concept I think!

Nick


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## SEK_22Hornet (Nov 18, 2013)

You might look at BobCAD CAM.  It is very well supported by training videos and they will do both on-line and face-to-face training.  From your description, I take it that this is a CNC Lathe, so you would be looking a BobCAD Lathe. If you buy 1 year mainteneance from them, they also will write up to 2 post processors for your machine, if they don't already have one that works. It may not be the best or the easiest to learn, but at least they do offer training.  Just one possible option for you.

Dan (another Dan)


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## DAN_IN_MN (Nov 18, 2013)

SEK_22Hornet said:


> You might look at BobCAD CAM.  It is very well supported by training videos and they will do both on-line and face-to-face training.  From your description, I take it that this is a CNC Lathe, so you would be looking a BobCAD Lathe. If you buy 1 year mainteneance from them, they also will write up to 2 post processors for your machine, if they don't already have one that works. It may not be the best or the easiest to learn, but at least they do offer training.  Just one possible option for you.
> 
> Dan (*another Dan*)



Couldn't have written it better myself! :rofl:


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## DMS (Nov 18, 2013)

Not much experience with BobCAD/CAM, but make sure that whatever software you get has CAM software intended for lathe use, as CAM software for a lathe is significantly different that that for a mill. Most software manufacturers offer a free trial (usually time limited to 30 days). I would recommend trying out a few to see how you like them. A few of the entry packages are DolphinCAM, BobCAD, and Alibre.


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## Mid Day Machining (Nov 19, 2013)

BobCad is probably a good one to start with. I got V25 about 3 months ago. I haven't had time to learn to use it yet, but I'm getting closer.

Right now, I use GibbsCam. I had it when I owned a real cnc shop and when I sold the company, the new owner didn't want it, so I brought it home with me.


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## 5.56 (Nov 19, 2013)

Sigh,

 Bob Cad does not support swiss......contacted them

Nick


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## DAN_IN_MN (Nov 19, 2013)

5.56 said:


> Sigh,
> 
> Bob Cad does not support swiss......contacted them
> 
> Nick



Nick

If you've never ran a CNC machine before they can be a little daunting.  Do you have a VoTech nearby that offers a class or 3 on CNC?  I know you said you have a full plate, but I do believe you'll be making chips sooner with a class under your belt.

I learned how to run a CNC Plasma cutter from written instruction, manufacturer's help line, and having known how to use various CAD programs from going to school.  I'm still learning.

Regards,

Dan


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## DAN_IN_MN (Nov 19, 2013)

PM sent


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## 5.56 (Nov 19, 2013)

Dan,
 Yes we do have one about an hr. from here and I have contacted them and waiting for them to get back to me with information.

BTW. Machine is now in place it came on a truck this morning, passed inspection on the 3 phase, meeting with the power company with a check for the drop Thursday. I will start the wiring and conduit tomorrow to the load center. Prepping the area, getting ground rods through the cement and all of the details done. Set and wire the new air compressor. 

Sigh, a mothers work is never done. LOL

Nick


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## DMS (Nov 19, 2013)

MECSoft and Sprutcam both have turning packages. Remember, you can always buy the CAD and CAM separately, though in theory at least, if they are integrated it is easier. Both of these are considered "low end" packages. But if you are not trying to run a job shop, they may be just fine.


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## SEK_22Hornet (Nov 19, 2013)

Ok, let's back up a bit - What came with your machine? Hopefully, manuals for the controller and the machine.  Also, where did you buy it? From a dealer or from a company that was running it?  Just thinking that you might be able to ask the previous owner what they were using to program it.  Also, have you tried contacting Hardinge Customer Service?  Maybe they can tell you what they originally recommended or supplied, or maybe they can even provide a post processor for one of the program suppliers like Mastercam or BobCAD.  It looks like these machines were built for a short time in the mid 90's. What is the difference between a Swiss machine and a regular lathe (function or operation wise).  As a rule, to program a lathe, you would generate a profile that is like sawing the part down the center line and tracing one half onto the screen (greatly simplified).  What will a Swiss machine do that a lathe won't?  Just trying to figure out if there is any real difference in the programming. 

Dan (in Kansas)


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## 5.56 (Nov 20, 2013)

Dan,
 The machine was operational in FL and under power. I bought it through a broker. It has a lot of manuals with it. It is going to take some time to go through them. For my own use, I am going to have to get some larger collets. It came with ALOT of collets, all being on the too small size for me. The largest was .250. 

 My application for this machine is a pretty wild bullet design. It needs to be done on a machine that can also use a jeweler saw. The controller is a 0T Fanuc, but the manuals are claiming an 18T. So I am not sure yet what I have. It looks like the unit can be programmed to either work the main spindle by itself or have the sub spindle doing work at the same time. 

 I need to get coolant for turning copper, brass and stainless. I am hoping that one coolant will work for all 3. It may sound silly, but I am at the bottom of the learning of the curve in all aspects. LOL Also a good place to find said coolant. I am going to need 20 gallons. 15 in and 5 in reserve.

Sigh, next sill question, not knowing what I am looking for, I know I will need a tool to set all of the gang tooling as well as the other tooling so that they are the same. 

LOL Anyone wanting to see a scenic rustic Amish community in Holmes County Ohio? Bring the wife or girl friend, turn them loose in the shops. Lunch is on me! <grin>

Nick


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## DAN_IN_MN (Nov 20, 2013)

okay, time for a few pics!  :thumbsup:  I want to see what you've got!  

What are you going to produce, if you don't mind me asking.


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## 5.56 (Nov 21, 2013)

This is a` 9MM 110 grn all copper bullet shot into water. The total spread of the flower is 1 3/16" a .45 ACP will open to 1.32"
Those pictures were made from a flatbed scanner. So they are actual size of the expended projectile.

Nick


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## 5.56 (Nov 23, 2013)

I have been working in the shop getting things ready to go. 200 amp 3 phase disconnect and meter, 3" conduit ran on the ceiling to the back bay to the load center, wired into the load center. awaiting American Electric and Power to do the drop.

I will be setting the compressor and running power to it and the CNC Swiss tomorrow. The Bar feed will draw power from the Swiss. Signing up for an online class with a group out of Cleveland.

Meeting with BATF for the final clearance for the licensing for making the copper projectiles. Getting salesmen stopping to try to sell me tooling and coolant. I figure I will be in a power up mode in about 10 Days. Already looking around for the next CNC Swiss and bar feed. I think I am going to get slammed for demand for this new hobby venture. If I am not careful it will become a full time job instead of seeing what I can do.

Nick


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## SEK_22Hornet (Nov 23, 2013)

Did you figure out what software you need for the machine?

Dan (in Kansas)


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## 5.56 (Nov 24, 2013)

Dan,

 Not yet, I am still open to suggestions. Bob Cam does not support Swiss. So I am still wandering around in the land of the lost looking for the Holy grail of programs that I can afford. LOL

Nick


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## Mid Day Machining (Nov 24, 2013)

5.56 said:


> Dan,
> 
> Not yet, I am still open to suggestions. Bob Cam does not support Swiss. So I am still wandering around in the land of the lost looking for the Holy grail of programs that I can afford. LOL
> 
> Nick



I use GibbsCam, but I'm not sure that will work with your Swiss machines. Besides, it's a pretty high end software. If it does work with Swiss machines, it will probably be in the neighborhood of $10,000.00. It's good software, but it's expensive.


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## DAN_IN_MN (Nov 24, 2013)

SEK_22Hornet said:


> Did you figure out what software you need for the machine?
> 
> Dan (in Kansas)





5.56 said:


> Dan,
> 
> Not yet, I am still open to suggestions. Bob Cam does not support Swiss. So I am still wandering around in the land of the lost looking for the Holy grail of programs that I can afford. LOL
> 
> Nick



Nick

Did you ask the company that you bought it from what they were using?  Perhaps they have a seat (a license copy of the software) they can sell you.


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## 5.56 (Nov 24, 2013)

Dan,
 Good idea, I will check tomorrow to find out. I picked up the wire and conduit for the Swiss today. I should have it wired to the panel tomorrow.

Nick


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## 5.56 (Jan 6, 2015)

Well Folks,

 A year later and a lot of cussing and extensive trouble shooting. I have been operational for about 9 months.

The list of copper bullets that I named as X-Fire and developed through R&D are as follows:

45-70 opens up to 1.7"
45 colt and 45 ACP open to 1.34"
44 mag opens to 1.7"
40 S&W opens to 1.25"
9mm, 38 sp and 357 mag open to 1.1"
380 ACP opens to .835"

I am currently doing R&D to make a .308 that will open up to 1.7" first test failed, they opened up in the air. I now have to make them stronger.


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## countryguy (Jan 6, 2015)

Can you tell us what CAD and CAM setup you ended up using?  Great Story!   
CG. 




5.56 said:


> Well Folks,
> 
> A year later and a lot of cussing and extensive trouble shooting. I have been operational for about 9 months.
> 
> ...


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## 5.56 (Jan 7, 2015)

Well Folks,

I hired a guy to write an initial program and help locate the tool paths needed. He used Mastercam. From that one single program, copy and paste with an editor to get what I needed as well as learning what to do. I am still learning a lot. LOL This means writing code by hand. 

Nick


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## 5.56 (Feb 16, 2015)

Dan,
 I have come to believe there is no decent cadcam available for a Swiss cnc at a reasonable entry level price. LOL Sooooo, having talked to several folks about cadcam software there is only one that I found that I may be able to swing money wise and it costing me $3,500.00.  That would be Gibbs Cadcam. The only thing I can say is I have to sell a lot of ammunition and firearms to be able to cough that up and not have a tangible product in hand to sell for that investment.


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## wrat (Feb 17, 2015)

I'm probably way ahead just keeping my big trap shut, but were someone to ask (which no one has) I might tend to approach this whole thing a bit differently.
That is, yes, the CNC lathe can do everything and better than any other machine in the world (just sayin'), and yes, this is a home CNC forum, but i look at your product line and notice you're selling ammo.  Projectiles.  That means once 50 items have dropped, you've sold ONE box of ammo (or 2 the way they package it nowadays).  You're wanting to build a jillion of the same thing: a fairly simple projectile.  And you want to do a lot of them for a long time.
Why not save several thou and just get an old Brown and Sharpe Screw Machine?  Grind a tool bit (or two) to match your desired ogive; set it up and let it run.  Copper is forgiving and most tools will last nearly forever.  This technique has been working for decades -- even before NC existed.
Sure, it rattles a lot, but they're hard to beat when turning out your kind of production.
Change out a 20 foot stick of Cu whenever one gets done or even find one with a stick handler and load up a dozen sticks; turn off the lights; and come back... on the weekend!
Haven't been looking, but saw two of them on Craigslist about a year ago... for less than the price of a good software package.

Wrat


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## 5.56 (Feb 17, 2015)

Good point,
However, I have a buddy that has 15 B&S screw machines, According to him they will hold 1-2 thousandths tolerance. That is not tight enough.  Plus any and I mean any adjustment for size is basically a regrinding. I make about 500 a day when needed. Just not enough demand yet to put in another machine or two.

Nick


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## 5.56 (Feb 18, 2015)

Wrat,
 At the moment I am making the following different bullets.
.458
.452
.430
.410
.400
.357
.355
.308
with different bullet lengths and weights for some of the sizes.
It would not be much fun to do R&D having to get a plate ground for each modification. The B&S would be a good choice if I were doing pretty much of a standardized type of part. I am looking at a 2nd Swiss screw machine if this starts getting out of hand.

If I plan carefully_  can add about2 or 3 more machines and bar feeders in my back room.

Nick_


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## wrat (Feb 20, 2015)

What?  .430 but not .429?  Would Dirty Harry approve?
(KID-ding.. just kid-ding!)
Hmm, well you do have a conundrum there.  Bullet guys are usually using punch presses or carousels to swage their wares to the desired size. Hold it pretty close, but that's just with Pb or at best Pb with Cu jacket.  Custom turning is gonna be a challenge for volume.  But hey, with boutique products come boutique prices.  Maybe it'll do great.
Yes, you'd certainly wanna trust your buddy over me in this regard.  If he's working over a dozen of them, he knows the particulars far better than i.  My memory is from a long past faraway company and i thought we were getting about however tight we wanted -- of course, always obeying the "fast-is-loose, slow-is-tight" mantra.  But that was long ago.
Obviously, NC would be the only way to go in the proto/research effort.  And obviously, the ideal setup would be to have machines automatically kicking out product whilst you worked out new profiles and weights on a separate workstation. 
Guess i can't help much.  But i really wish i could.  If the BATF has bought into this, then it could really get popular and fast. See, it occurs to me that WHEN this catches hold, your 500 here-and-there orders will be followed up with orders for "how many THOUSANDS can i get?" and that from several customers simultaneously.
Even the best of NC is gonna have a tough time keeping up with that.  Best of luck.  I got nuthin'.

Wrat


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## 5.56 (Feb 21, 2015)

Wrat,
 Now here is the fun part of this. Up and till I got this Swiss screw machine I had not as much as ever turned a CNC machine on let alone operated one. I have been getting an education on maintaining, programming, set up and so forth. I am pretty pleased to have been able to make a viable product that is selling. Just a few things that I will be adding to the list of products will be stainless steel cleaning rods for firearms. Different length and sizes. I am also looking at making slitting/slotting saw arbors.
 As for BATF buying into this........Now that is rather funny since I hold a 07 manufacturing Federal Firearms License that allows me to manufacture firearms and ammunition. Ruger has been in contact with me as well as Rock River Arms. It is hard to tell where this will lead to. I have the proverbial better mousetrap designed and built.

 Now here is the real problem with what I am doing. Let's see a show of hands that have had experience making parts out of C110 copper. It is 99.9% pure copper. Special oil so not to stain the parts you make. You need to use 55 degree tooling, inserts for turning copper. The copper does not make "chips" it makes long streamers. You cannot be far from the machine unless you are willing to have a wrap up and crash. Stop every 15 parts to check for a build up of copper streamers/shaving. I can make Tellurian Copper bullets as well.

 With the Dillon loading equipment, it takes me about 35 minutes to manufacture loaded ammunition using a full 8 hours of machine runtime making the bullets. If this takes off as I am hoping it will I would add another building with more room for CNC Swiss machines. We have California that is wanting to ban all lead bullets. So a good copper design will have a massive market in California.

I am 59 years old and have been retired for 11 years. This gives me something to tinker with. I just do not want to be the guy who went to the Doctor complaining about having an orange penis. The doc said to him my god man what have you been doing? The guy says " Nothing, all I do is sit around the house watching TV and eating Cheetos!" LOL

Nick


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## Karl_T (Feb 21, 2015)

VERY INTERESTING PROJECT.

I've done low volume work with copper, its used to make electrodes for my sinker EDM machine. Yep, gummy stuff.

Are you using a Dillon 1050?


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## 5.56 (Feb 21, 2015)

Karl,
I have a pair of 1050's 1 650 and 1 550B, plus 3 rcbs presses some mecs and lees. I do 50 BMG stuff as well.

Nick


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## csprecision (Feb 21, 2015)

Hopefully you are getting a set of manuals for the machine, if not I would search for some.

I will recommend studying the manuals and slowly familiarize yourself with the operation of the machine.
My personal opinion is learn how to program the machine manually before you jump into cam.

The feed override dial will be your friend


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## kd8wdave (Mar 2, 2015)

5.56 said:


> Dan,
> 
> It is a Hardinge Conquest ST16 Swiss. It has a Fanuc 0T controller. It has 1960 hrs. on the analog hr. meter. It was rebuilt in 2008, Ball screws, guides, motors. It came out of a medical equipment manufacturing facility and is currently inbound on a truck and should be here tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Hi Nick
There are 'far better' folks on here than I when it comes to helping you do what you want. Just wanted to say that at 58 you have a long way to go B4 mem will cause you learning issue. I'm now 72 and just finished building a 'homebrew' version of a small CNC machine. Mine uses something called Grbl(software that runs on an Arduino UNO, which in turn drives stepper controller's(that I built using PIC processor) which in turn drives some dual H-bridge drivers which are connected to my bipolar steppers. I have just gotten the machine to run a few days ago and now just trying to get my head wrapped in the 'g code' stuff. I don't have any fancy software for drawings yet. My main purpose is to cut PCB boards and trim off copper for capacitors that I make for antenna traps and anything else I can think of. It has been fun doing the little project.

You will probably spend many hours doing the same

cheers.


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## wrat (Mar 6, 2015)

csprecision said:


> My personal opinion is learn how to program the machine manually before you jump into cam.



Not trying to be argumentative, but just to show there are different opinions.  

I learned NC in the old days where there wasn't any 'programming' at the machine, to speak of.  There was setup -- sometimes a very long setup -- and there was run time.  But I found it more fun that working the conventional machines (for production).

I think it mostly comes down to however the guy learned it first.  If I had learned programming on the machine first, I would probably champion that, too.  I learned programming in the computer room.

In a high-zoot factory, the CAM guy has all the machines and tooling in solid models right in front of him on the screen.  He has Vericut or some similar simulator.  He doesn't even SEE the machine, let alone program it manually.  The machine might be half-mile away.

Coming from that environment, that's sorta how I would lean.  Keep it on the screen.  Everything possible.  Minimize touch-time.  If ribbon chips were a problem, no need to stop the machine.  I would introduce routines to serve as chip breakers.  stuff like that.

However, that's just another opinion.  This is a *hobby* machine forum so I don't know what would work especially well for your small scale.

As usual, i got nuthin'  ;-)

Wrat

p.s.  watch the Cheetos, bud.


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## jumps4 (Mar 6, 2015)

I ran across a tooling pdf for your machine 
I don't know if it would be any future help
Steve


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