# DRO or not?



## i4Marc (Apr 12, 2020)

I am in the process of trying to decide which home/hobby lathe to get and was wondering if DRO is essential? I figure probably not if the machine I'm getting is a Harbor Freight 7X12. But I'm kinda liking the Precision Matthews 10X30. Will I regret not getting DRO installed with this machine? Is the DRO that comes installed with the machine a high quality DRO? What questions should I be asking that I am not?


----------



## ttabbal (Apr 12, 2020)

The PM DROs look like nice units. I went with an import unit. It took a little fiddling to get it installed on my 1127, but it works great. 

I wouldn't call it essential, but I much prefer it over counting turns on it dials.


----------



## benmychree (Apr 12, 2020)

Essential? NO,  have never had one on a lathe and never felt the need for one.  A mill is another matter ---


----------



## pacifica (Apr 12, 2020)

With a DRO you don't have to worry about backlash, only actual movement is shown.With my lathe I have I have a hard time feeling the actual crosslide movement at times.

 One less thing to worry about for accuracy.

For threading to me it is easier with a DRO.--Make a pass,pull back threading tool, reverse; find previous spot on DRO and advance a thousands, make another pass and so on until final thread depth is attained.


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 12, 2020)

You don't need a DRO to use a lathe or mill.  I went for almost fifty years without a DRO on the lathe and more than twenty five years without one on the mill.  The lathe is better suited to running without a DRO because measurements of progress can easily be made with calipers or a micrometer.  It is more difficult for the z axis but with some ingenuity, accurate work can be done.  The same for the tailstock.  

On a mill, the DRO is more useful.  Movement of more than one revolution of the hand crank requires keeping track of how many revolutions have been made and it is easy to lose count.  In addition, backlash must always be accounted for when machiniong.  A DRO provides direct measurement of position so both of these problems are addressed.  

There are other benefits of  having a DRO.  It simplfies operations like drilling bolt circles or linear arraus.  The ability to change the ctive coordinate system is a plus as well.

All that said, I have DRO's on both my lathe and mill and wouldn't give them up.


----------



## mksj (Apr 12, 2020)

I guess I would say why not, but agree with you on a small lathe it is much less practical. You can purchase a basic DRO for under $200 these days and do the install yourself, a lathe install is fairly simple and a good learning exercise. It helps minimize mistakes and counting errors, and if you are older and can't see that great, a big help. Two things to factor in specific to a lathe, on the cross slide scale you need a slim line scale which is smaller. You also want a 1 micron so when you use diameter mode the digits do not jump in 0.0004" increments. Typically this is a GS-31 scale, but you need to specify this when/if you purchase. The is a small cost difference.

I would say that that accuracy wise most the DRO's are equivalent at a hobbyist level of use. Ther may be some difference in reliability and how they work at extreme temperature difference (i.e. some displays crap out when cold).


----------



## T Bredehoft (Apr 12, 2020)

I put an aftermarket  unit on my 10x30, fiddled with it for  a couple of months and decided I didn't use it enought to concern myself with it. If it worked perfectly, I still don't think I'd use it.


----------



## mikey (Apr 12, 2020)

Excellent comments thus far. I just wanted to add that the need for a DRO on the lathe is very much dependent upon how accurate the leadscrews are. I own two lathes, an Emco precision lathe and a Sherline long bed lathe. Between the two, surprisingly, the Sherline has more accurate leadscrews and I can rely on the handwheel readings. If I interpolate and dial in a 0.00025" cut on my Sherline, that is what will come off. I cannot even get close to this level of resolution on my Emco lathe unless I use the compound feed, which is accurate to the tenths. 

So, when I can find the time, the Emco will get a DRO but the Sherline doesn't need one.


----------



## MontanaLon (Apr 12, 2020)

It isn't "essential" but in some situations it will make life easier.


----------



## Winegrower (Apr 12, 2020)

Really, for a hobby none of this stuff is essential.   You have to rephrase the question.


----------



## Bamban (Apr 12, 2020)

This 3 inch Starrett dial indicator got me through a lot of barrels



And this on the 1236, pointer on the QCTP I can dial to the resolution of the indicator. The trick to make sure there are no errors due to the indicator not squared up, make some small cuts and measure to ensure what you dial is what you got. Once the calibration sort of is verified then you can go on with the rest of the turning job. Done countless barrel for the gas blocks and hit dimensions spot on with this set up


----------



## BtoVin83 (Apr 12, 2020)

With all the hub bub about DRO's I took a look at them and the cost benefit ratio is just not there, When  start building interplanetary vehicles or nuclear reactors maybe I will revisit this.


----------



## macardoso (Apr 12, 2020)

I've been using lathes for years without any DRO and I trust myself to make accurate parts. I ended up purchasing one recently because I'm having issues with the rack and pinion on my lathe and I would like a readout to double check my work. I got it for under $250 shipped so it was worthwhile to me. Has some useful "bonus" features.

I think that learning to use your machine without a DRO is valuable. There are lessons such as dealing with backlash that you should figure out without the screen running.

I'd also be concerned that it would be very difficult to install a DRO on a small lathe. The scales have a relatively large cross section (3/4" x 1" or more) and are almost 2 inches longer than the axis travel. You might not be able to fit these on a small lathe, especially the cross slide.

In short, a DRO isn't needed for accurate work but can make life easier and running the machine faster. Learn to use it without the DRO first.

EDIT: Spelling Edit


----------



## BGHansen (Apr 12, 2020)

Not adding anything here, but having a DRO speeds up most operations.  I'd really hate to lose the DROs from my mills. I have 4 mills and 3 have DROs. So nice to not have to count hand wheel turns or worry about back lash. I'm so much more productive with the DRO.

I have two lathes, one has a DRO. I use the DRO quite a bit, especially for Z-axis work. Nice to zero a tool on the end of the work and turn a shoulder to the proper length.  I get by on the other lathe with a 2" travel dial indicator on a magnetic base.  Not essential on a lathe, but very nice for a lot of the work that I do. 

Bruce


----------



## Inferno (Apr 12, 2020)

I'll add that a DRO isn't "essential" but my experience is that I won't use my lathe/mill without one ever again. 
I only made two things before I added a DRO. After the DRO I started making a lot more things. 

I learned on dial machines. I can't tell you how many times I wrote down a stop point or did some math or whatever when I was in school. The DRO makes it so much easier. I just set a zero point and move my tool. Then I can go back to zero and add more or however I want the math to work. 
Having a lot of things in either metric or inches makes it a lot easier also. No more math there either. Just push a button and I'm switched. Easy-peasy. 

I'll add that you don't need to spend a ton of money on a DRO. I added mine for, I am pretty sure, less than $200. It's bluetooth so the readout goes to my tablet or phone or whatever. I had to solder the receiver board myself but I like doing that sort of thing. I think the board can be bought already soldered if you aren't into that sort of thing. 

The readout I have set up is only X and Y right now, plus lathe head RPM. Someday, when I need to, I will set up the Z for the mill feature. right now it's not too much of an issue. 

I vote you get a DRO. You will never look back.


----------



## Shootymacshootface (Apr 12, 2020)

I agree with most of the great comments here. For a mill, a DRO is a no brainer. For a lathe, it is another story. I put a lot of thought into putting a DRO on my lathe and my conclusions are that it would be somewhat useful for the Z axis, very useful for the tailstock, and not that great for the X axis. The X axis settings on a lathe are too intuitive for a DRO to be indispensable like it is on a mill.
Just my opinion. 
Maybe someday I will put one on my lathe, but definitely not a priority.


----------



## JimDawson (Apr 12, 2020)

I put a DRO on my lathe a couple years ago, it's nice to have, but definitely not essential.  If I need to hold really tight tolerances, I still do it the old fashioned way.  It is nice for the Z travel when you're laying out a part with several different diameters.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Apr 12, 2020)

benmychree said:


> Essential? NO,  have never had one on a lathe and never felt the need for one.  A mill is another matter ---



Interesting, I feel the opposite. Unless the lathe has some other means of determining carriage travel, I would consider a DRO more valuable there. Having cut my teeth before DROs were common, there are ways to accomplish what you need without them. Much like learning to grind cutting tools, there is a case to be made for learning to do precision work without one.


----------



## Bamban (Apr 13, 2020)

This analog readout is awesome. Too bad the ones out there cost twice as much as the ChiCom  DROs. I can thread at a faster speed with a TravADial and catch the stop fairly easily. Definitely easier to catch the revolving hand than catching flipping DRO numbers.

Had this with the 1236 when I acquired it


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 13, 2020)

Thank you everybody for your input. I'm liking the Precision Matthews 10X30 for a few reasons so that is likely the machine I will end up with. But the DRO option is $500 and is 2 axis. At this point I know almost nothing about lathes so you can't dumb it down enough for me. It sounds like a number of aftermarket DROs are quite a bit more affordable. There has also been mention above about tail stock DROs etc. How many places on a lathe can you place a DRO sensor? Can I get basically the same benefits of a DRO with a dial indicator setup? Although dial indicators aren't exactly cheap either. By the time I have three indicators at different locations on the lathe I could have gotten the DRO cheaper. Is the $500 for the DRO better spent on tooling?


----------



## Chipper5783 (Apr 13, 2020)

DRO on a lathe?  My vote: No.  Lots of good comments above.  I have a DRO on one of the mills - it is awesome.  For the second mill, I glued a 0.1" calibrated scale on - saves counting turns.  I would put a DRO on the second mill before I'd put one on either lathe.  I don't doubt a DRO on a lathe would be a nice to have.  If I had $$ to burn, I'd add a DRO to every machine I have.  Since I don't have that sort of cash - I have to be selective about where I spend it.  I suggest you put the money you are thinking of spending on the DRO into something that will be a game changer (such as a larger lathe - a 12" is still not a monster machine at all, but it can tackle a much broader range of tasks than the 10" swing machine).

Be warned, it is a slipper slope 0- "for a few more $$, you can get . . . "!


----------



## Chipper5783 (Apr 13, 2020)

The $500 is much better spent on tooling.  You won't need 3 separate dials.  One of the mag back mounted 1" range dials is all I have ever used - and not had trouble positioning (I've been at it nearly 40 years - one day I'll spring for a longer travel dial, it just isn't high enough on the priority list).


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 13, 2020)

As far as machine size goes, right now I don't need to make huge parts. For now I'll probably be making, or trying to make, screws and other parts for my knives/sheaths and small parts for my race bikes. Plus, it will be going in my basement. I can't just wheel it in there. It would need to go down a narrow set of stairs. So weight and size are an issue.


----------



## erikmannie (Apr 13, 2020)

I have a PM-1030V with factory installed DRO. I use the DRO constantly & I have had zero issues with it. Strongly recommend.

I was anxious to get working on the lathe, so I sprung for factory installation. I would rather spend my time cutting metal than installing a DRO kit.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 13, 2020)

How long have you had the PM1030V? Any issues with it? Here I was just thinking of going with a dial indicator but now you have me wanting the DRO again. I'm so confused, hahahaha.


----------



## erikmannie (Apr 13, 2020)

I really hope that you choose a PM-1030V with factory installed DRO.

I have had so many tools and machines in my life, but nothing comes close to my lathe (with DRO) for being the “favorite piece of equipment ever”.

I know it’s financially painful to pay for that PM order, but I’m tellin’ ya it was more than worth it for me.

I use handwheels on the lathes at school, and handwheels are fine. The DRO is just faster & easier in my novice opinion.


----------



## hwelecrepair (Apr 13, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> How many places on a lathe can you place a DRO sensor?



Personally, I have installed a 4 axis DRO on a big lathe about 3 years ago. X, Z, tailstock, and toolpost. 

Who knows if anything more than the X ever truly got used, but thats what I have seen.  

Jon


----------



## macardoso (Apr 13, 2020)

I'm just going to leave this here. Came at the recommendation of another user on this forum. The read head just came in the mail and the scales should arrive today. Seller was easy to buy from and items arrived 2.5 weeks after payment. It is a 2 Axis DRO for $185. I opted to get a 3 axis read head (have a spare) and a 1 micron slim profile scale for the cross slide and that brought it up to $217.









						82.86US $ 10% OFF|11 Languages 2 Axis LCD Digital Readout  Dro Set Kit and 2 PCS 5U Linear Glass Scale Optical Ruler for Mill Lathe Machine YHSINO|Level Measuring Instruments|   - AliExpress
					

Smarter Shopping, Better Living!  Aliexpress.com




					www.aliexpress.com
				




I've been very impressed with the read head. The display is large and bright. It updates very quickly and has a ton of configuration. Also quite a few nice functions like options to rough in a taper or a radius using the X & Z handwheels. Rather than having a million buttons like a lot of DROs I have seen, it has a graphical interface with function keys that are applicable to the current page. 

If you don't mind doing the mounting yourself, this was an excellent price. DRO PROs and PM are buying all their readouts from overseas too, so I didn't feel bad shopping there.

EDIT: My only complaints are:

I cannot set the DRO to only show X and Z. This is my fault for buying a 3 axis DRO and turning off the 3rd axis. Not sure if the 2 Axis version shows X and Z.
There is no software option to show or hide the extra decimal places. Tape would do fine if needed.


----------



## macardoso (Apr 13, 2020)

Here is the DRO in question. Mounted to the back of the headstock of my 12x36 Enco.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 13, 2020)

Ok, thanks guys. A lot to consider. Since I'm brand new to lathes can you help me understand which axis is which? At this point I am assuming that X axis is the carriage left and right and the Z axis is the cross slide in and out? What is the Y axis?


----------



## macardoso (Apr 13, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> Ok, thanks guys. A lot to consider. Since I'm brand new to lathes can you help me understand which axis is which? At this point I am assuming that X axis is the carriage left and right and the Z axis is the cross slide in and out? What is the Y axis?



Exactly the other way around. X is the cross slide (positive is the direction of increasing diameter). Z is the carriage feed parallel to the spindle. A lathe typically doesn't have a Y axis. If it did, it would be vertical movement of the tool perpendicular to the floor (this is present on some CNC lathes).

On my setup, I'm just pretending that "Y" is really the Z axis.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 13, 2020)

Oops, haha. Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## JimDawson (Apr 13, 2020)

X is the cross slide -X is towards the center line.  Z is the carriage, -Z is towards the chuck.  There is no Y on manual machines, if there were, it would be up and down.   Some CNC lathes have a Y axis.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Apr 13, 2020)

There's a thread on the subject of axis designations, https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/x-y-z-on-a-lathe.44499/
I'm not sure it clears anything up.

Coming from a math/science background, the conventional designations for a lathe are just counter-intuitive to me. Just as Descartes intended, on my lathe X is horizontal (carriage) and Y is the cross-feed, the same as the mill. I can't help it, anything else confuses me.

Long travel indicators are (were) a good option. Now a DRO is cheaper more economical than anything over 1 in. travel.

We had Trav-a-dials on all the lathes at my business. They make it very easy to count the revs, making it possible to perform some operations at higher speed/feed rates. They are surprisingly durable and very accurate, but being mechanical they can be a little finicky. My best friend still makes good money maintaining them for my former business partner. I was given a high-end metric/imperial Trav-a-dial when my friend Spud passed. I tried to figure out how to mount it on my Heavy 10, but it would have consumed about 4 in. of carriage travel. I sold it on eBay, bought a cheap economical DRO and pocketed $150. I couldn't be happier.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 13, 2020)

Does anyone have experience or knowledge about the Weiss lathes sold by DRO PROs, particularly the 11X29? Are they good people to deal with? Good customer support, etc.?


----------



## hwelecrepair (Apr 13, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> Ok, thanks guys. A lot to consider. Since I'm brand new to lathes can you help me understand which axis is which? At this point I am assuming that X axis is the carriage left and right and the Z axis is the cross slide in and out? What is the Y axis?



Flipped.  Z is the spindle axis (left and right) and X is the cross-slide (in and out)

Jon


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 13, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> Ok, thanks guys. A lot to consider. Since I'm brand new to lathes can you help me understand which axis is which? At this point I am assuming that X axis is the carriage left and right and the Z axis is the cross slide in and out? What is the Y axis?



X axis is cross feed and z axis is along spindle axis (left/right).  There is no y axis which would be up/down.
edit: I seeit has been already answered.  Sorry, I hadn't got to page 2 yet.


----------



## RYAN S (Apr 13, 2020)

I would vote for a DRO!! As a new lathe operator, it will give you less to think about and allow you to focus more on the process and safety than on measurements from the wheels.
Ryan


----------



## Aaron_W (Apr 13, 2020)

It is not that hard to use your hand wheels, everything in my shop is manual only, no CNC, no DRO.
The two primary advantages I see to a DRO is bigger numbers (those hand wheel numbers are pretty small) and keeping track of how many revolutions I've made. 
One full rotation of the hand wheel only results in a very small distance traveled, so many jobs will require multiple rotations of the hand wheel and it is easy to wind up hearing Dirty Harry in your head "Did I make 5 rotations or 6?, Well do you feel lucky Punk!"  

Since DRO is simply tracking movement it takes care of that issue, it doesn't care how many rotations you have made, just how far the carriage has moved. When you lose track of your position without a DRO, you need to stop and measure to find your location, no big deal but an inconvenience.  

Personally if I was spending the money for a new lathe I'd probably add the $500 for a factory installed DRO just for the convenience of it.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 13, 2020)

Ok, thanks everybody for the information about DROs. 

Does anyone have experience or knowledge about the Weiss lathes sold by DRO PROs, particularly the 11X29? Are they good people to deal with? Good customer support, etc.? Seems like a slightly better machine than the PM but comes with less stuff.


----------



## mksj (Apr 13, 2020)

You would be better off at that price range with either a 1228 or 1236 lathe with larger spindle bore, standard chuck mount (D1-4), should be able to take a BXA QCTP and MT3 tailstock which opens you up to much more common tooling and accessories. Also less change gears and heavier lathes.



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1228vf-lb/
		



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1236/
		



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1236t/


----------



## theperfessor (Apr 13, 2020)

About 20 years ago I bought a lightly used Clausing/Colchester 15 x 50. Used it for a couple years w/o a DRO with no real problems until I ran into a job where I just couldn't do what I wanted to do using the dials. Paid $10k for the lathe, got a local tool vendor to install a 2 axis Newall. Cost $1500. But that extra 15% allowed me to do things faster and more accurately.  I realize that's a bigger lathe at a higher price than what the OP is interested in, but my point is that I will cry once when I pay the bill but after that I'm going to get a far more capable tool.

Our shop is getting a virtually unused 12 x 36 Harbor Freight/Central Machine lathe in the next few months. Buying it from my BIL. It will be a backup/second op machine and thus not heavily used or used for complex work. But guess what - it will have a DRO on it within a couple of months. Easier for all of us to use, we are all comfortable with CNC displays and digital tech, why not take advantage of that?

We are a production shop, probably less necessary for hobbyist/home shop.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 13, 2020)

Price is definitely an issue. I am selling everything I can just to put the cash together for the 10" or maybe 11" lathe. The 12" probably is out of reach for me. Also as I mentioned, I have to get this down some basement stairs so size and weight is a limiting factor as well.


----------



## epanzella (Apr 13, 2020)

A mill really needs a DRO but a work around using dial indicators is pretty easy on the lathe.


----------



## keeena (Apr 13, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> ...For now I'll probably be making, or trying to make, screws and other parts for my knives/sheaths and small parts for my race bikes....



What and where do you race? Machining compliments the sport nicely; great to have machining tools at your disposal. But if you thought racing was expensive...  Well...buy the lathe and report back in a year. 

I wish I had a DRO on my lathe but have gotten by without one for now. As mentioned: you could get a long travel dial indicator but the DRO adds simplicity & speed. Just depends if that is worth the cost to you. For me the most usefulness of a DRO would be carriage positioning; the cross-slide dials are good enough for the type of work I do. I'll be getting one eventually.

Like mksj pointed out: if you are considering a smaller lathe with DRO or larger w/o DRO: go for the latter. The improvements due to size & specs is worth it.  After playing with a 10" for a few months I immediately realized some drawbacks and upgraded to a 12x36.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 14, 2020)

keeena,

My buddies talked me into going for a championship last year so I could upgrade my amateur racing license to expert and race with them (they are all experts). So I did the CCS Lightweight Formula 40 and GT lights series in the Atlantic and Mid-Atlantic regions last year on a Suzuki SV650. I came away with second place in both regions in GTL and won both regions in Formula 40 as well as got track champion at NJ. The tracks are on the East Coast - CMP, VIR, Summit Point, NJMP. There are still some mods I want to do to the bike so the lathe would come in handy and give me small projects to practice on.

I do not have the space or budget for the 12X36.


----------



## Aaron_W (Apr 14, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> Ok, thanks everybody for the information about DROs.
> 
> Does anyone have experience or knowledge about the Weiss lathes sold by DRO PROs, particularly the 11X29? Are they good people to deal with? Good customer support, etc.? Seems like a slightly better machine than the PM but comes with less stuff.



DRO-PROs is 2-3 hours from me but I have no personal experience with them. A lot of the import lathes are made in the same factories with the individual sellers choosing different options. For example I have a 9x20 Enco lathe made in 1994, I have bought parts from Grizzly for their 9x19 version G4000 and they work on my lathe. Jet sells the same lathe in both a 9x19 and a 9x29 version, but theirs has a 1-1/2" spindle instead of a 39mm thread.

Weiss and PM appear to sell the same lathe. There was a post recently asking this question. Matt from PM said theirs is different, but didn't go into detail.


I also have a basement shop, but I only have 1 step to deal with since it is an outside entrance. I still have very limited access having just a single regular width door, narrow walkway and a low ceiling making moving heavy objects fun. Lathes and mills can be disassembled. I have a 950lb 11x24 lathe and two 900lb-ish mills that I have got into the basement with just my wife and I. The lathe was the most difficult, as the mills broke down into far more manageable packages.

I broke the lathe into several pieces, the bed and headstock being the most challenging since that section still weighed around 350lbs and that was after I pulled the spindle and gears from the head, and the tail stock and carriage from the bed. The base split in half, the side with the motor weighing about 200-250lbs, the empty half probably about 100lbs. 

Personally I think the 9" and 10" lathes are a nice size, particularly for a beginner but don't think you can't get a larger down lathe there if you find you really need a bigger lathe. The PM 11x27 or 12x28 will give you a 1-1/2" spindle bore for not a whole lot more weight. The 10x30 is 395lbs, the 12x28 is 490lbs.

My most used lathe is a 3.5x17" Sherline that weighs under 50lbs, so size isn't everything.  


and yes, if you read through this post I refer to 3 different lathes, I bought the Sherline lathe because I didn't have the room for a big lathe, and now I have 3 lathes, 3 mills, an electric press and a shaper... I got very creative with my space. This may also be why I tend to advocate for something smaller to start out. You can always go bigger down the road after you have experience and really know what you need.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 14, 2020)

Thanks Aaron. I really don't need a 12X36 or even the 11X29. Heck, I don't even need the 10X30. I'll probably only be making small parts like pommel nuts, screws/bolts, bushings etc. for a while. A 7X12 would likely get me by. But I'm looking at middle size machines for the quality/features, steadiness, parts/accessories availability. A larger machine would be overkill for me.

Does anyone have a link to the thread discussing the difference between Weiss and PM?


----------



## macardoso (Apr 14, 2020)

I happened across a 12x36 at a good price and have moved it down a really awful set of basement stairs. Total weight is around 1000lb and it wasn't too bad, however it did necessitate the purchase of an engine hoist for assembly (Harbor Freight $100). I did all the moving with one buddy and some ropes and 2x4s on the stairs to make a ramp. Took an afternoon and a 6 pack.

I am an advocate of the largest machine (within reason) that you can go for. At a minimum it makes working on small stuff easy, but it really shines as your work grows and you need to do the occasional larger part. The extra mass of a larger machine also dictates what tools you are allowed to use (from a rigidity/chatter standpoint) and how much room you have to get into the machine to work and measure. I have never come close to needing the 37" between centers on my lathe, but you can rest assured that the entire bed gets used often when I have a big drill and want room to measure my part.


----------



## stioc (Apr 14, 2020)

I bought a 7x14 for my first lathe and frankly it wasn't a good experience. It was just too cramped for me and always felt like a toy. A lot of folks love them and there are even smaller lathes out there and they all have their place. However, the 9x20 is a good size for a starter machinist who has interest in motorsports etc. Lots of following and mods to make them work even better. BTW I added a cheap $60 DRO on mine a couple of years ago and use it all the time.
I wish I had a bigger lathe for rigidity but for the room this one takes and for the cost it's been a solid choice. Goodluck!


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 14, 2020)

This thread seems to have morphed into a discussion of ideal size for a lathe.  My two cents, take it for what it's worth.  

I used an Atlas/Craftsman 6 x18 lathe for forty years and it pretty well did everything I needed to do.  At work, we bought a Grizzly G4000 which is a 9 x 19.  and I was impressed with the quality and value enough that I decided to buy a Grizzly lathe for myself.  Rather than buy the the 9 x 19, I pted for the 10 x 22 instead.  The reasons being a larger bore and swing, greater range on threading , and larger motor for a relatively small increase in price.  For my needs, there has seldom been a time when I would have wanted a 12 x lathe.  My lathe is also located in a basement shop and space is precious there.  I have an outside entrance as well and I could muscle a 12" lathe down but the extra foot in length and 600 lbs. in weight would have presented challenges.  

The 9 x19 can use an AXA QCTP, barely. The 10 x 22 works OK with the AXA.  Smaller lathes will probably require an OXA QCTP whuch ius non-standard. and more difficult to fnd tooling for.  A 12 x lathe would most likely need a BXA QCTP.  Tooling for a smaller lathe is less expensive.  A smaller lathe has less power and rigidity but, as many on this forum can attest, they can still turn out some amazing work. In some ways, it is more challenging  because you have to know your machine to get the best out of it.  You can't just bull your way through. 

 Although any lathe can be dangerous, a smaller lather has less power and less potential to do serious harm.  Electrical requirements for a small lathe are less demanding.  An important consideration when setting up in existing space.  A larger lathe will almost certainly require 240 volt service and possibly 3 phase.  Operating costs will be less as well.

As to the choice of brand, I chose Grizzly because they seem to have a reasonable level of quality for the price.  I have purchased a number of Grizzly machines over the past decade and although Chinese iron is considered a work in progress, very little of what I have done to the machnes has been correcting manufacturing deficiencies as opposed to imp4roving on design or adding features.  

At the time I bought the machines, I was unaware of of PM and I wold have seriously considered them.  I did look at Enco, Travers Tool, Wholesale Tool and Harbor Freight though.  In my experience, Grizzly customer service has been good to excellent. For those reasons, they have my loyalty.


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 14, 2020)

Thank you for that, Mr. Sakowski. Yes, this thread has morphed a bit. Perhaps I should open a new thread about brand and size choices but I'm sure that subject has been covered already elsewhere. I get the idea anyway. Larger is better I'm sure but my limitations will still be budget and space. I think I'm trying to decide between PM and Weiss at the moment. The Weiss seems better in some ways but offers less accessories included.

So let me ask this: If the choice were yours (anybody reading this) would you choose between a slightly better machine with less accessories or a slightly less, let's say...feature rich...model that comes with more accessories? The quality of manufacture being roughly equal. I'm talking about 4-jaw chucks, steady and follow rests, backing plates, QCTP etc.


----------



## DavidR8 (Apr 14, 2020)

If it were me I'd lean toward PM simply because of reputation. I see that the DRO-Pros Weiss machines look identical to the PM machines and highlight 100% American Spec. I'd say the PM machines are also 100% American spec.

Check out @Blondihacks as she has a 10x30 PM machine and seems to really like it.





						Lathe – Getting Started – Blondihacks
					






					blondihacks.com
				




She uses her PM 10x30 lots on her YT channel and recently did a video on buying an import lathe.


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 14, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> Thank you for that, Mr. Sakowski. Yes, this thread has morphed a bit. Perhaps I should open a new thread about brand and size choices but I'm sure that subject has been covered already elsewhere. I get the idea anyway. Larger is better I'm sure but my limitations will still be budget and space. I think I'm trying to decide between PM and Weiss at the moment. The Weiss seems better in some ways but offers less accessories included.
> 
> So let me ask this: If the choice were yours (anybody reading this) would you choose between a slightly better machine with less accessories or a slightly less, let's say...feature rich...model that comes with more accessories? The quality of manufacture being roughly equal. I'm talking about 4-jaw chucks, steady and follow rests, backing plates, QCTP etc.


Accessories can be added at any time.  It is hard to add better.


----------



## RJSakowski (Apr 14, 2020)

It is fairly easy to put a value on accessories.  Add them all up and subtract from the package price to get a base price.  Then you can compare appples and apples.  Then you can make a decision as to cost vs. value.  Still not easy as you have intangibles to consider.  In your conswideration, you may want to list features , including things like reputation and service record.  This makes it a little more clear when you have to decide the worth of each.

I use this process for every major purchase.  I tend to go middle of the road.  Not the cheapest but also not top of the line where often times you pay for the badge.  So far, it has worked for me.


----------



## kb58 (Apr 14, 2020)

For *me*, I don't feel the need for one on a lathe, but one on a mill is extremely useful.


----------



## macardoso (Apr 14, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> Thank you for that, Mr. Sakowski. Yes, this thread has morphed a bit. Perhaps I should open a new thread about brand and size choices but I'm sure that subject has been covered already elsewhere. I get the idea anyway. Larger is better I'm sure but my limitations will still be budget and space. I think I'm trying to decide between PM and Weiss at the moment. The Weiss seems better in some ways but offers less accessories included.
> 
> So let me ask this: If the choice were yours (anybody reading this) would you choose between a slightly better machine with less accessories or a slightly less, let's say...feature rich...model that comes with more accessories? The quality of manufacture being roughly equal. I'm talking about 4-jaw chucks, steady and follow rests, backing plates, QCTP etc.



You can always buy exactly what you need down the road so it doesn't matter so much if it is included, but factor it into the cost. At a minimum you are going to want a 3 jaw and a large 4 jaw. Steadys are nice but seldom used and non essential IMO. Same goes for faceplates and dogs (unless you need these - you know who you are). QCTP can be purchased and added easily, as can a DRO. I'd be most concerned about getting the most "factory only" features you can (power cross feed, coolant pump and tray, machine weight & size, heavy duty base/stand, spindle bore, motor HP, metric and inch threading, thread dial, etc.) 

My "Starter Pack" for a lathe would include:

3 jaw chuck
larger 4 jaw chuck
live center
dead center
QCTP
Drill chuck and arbor
Bonus options would be

steady rests
faceplate
dogs
spindle center
DRO
coolant pump
5C collet chuck
Even the minimum tooling can add a chunk to the lathe purchase. Keep this in mind.


----------



## ttabbal (Apr 14, 2020)

One thing to consider the larger machines from PM for is the D1 chuck mount. I didn't think it would make a big difference for me, but after having it, it does. 

The other big difference from the 10x to the 1127 or 1228 is that the ways are wider and more ridgid. That can make a big difference in performance. 

I had a choice of 1030 well tooled, or 1127 with no extras. I went with the 1127 for those reasons. I got a decent tailstock drill chuck from Glacern, some HSS bits, and just added other things as I needed them. 

For accessories like the follow and steady rest, it can be tricky. Getting them after the fact can be difficult as what places stock varies over time. There are some things that you really need those for. You can make them, if you have the right tools. I like knowing that I have some basic units available, and have used the follow rest.


----------



## keeena (Apr 14, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> keeena,
> 
> My buddies talked me into going for a championship last year so I could upgrade my amateur racing license to expert and race with them (they are all experts). So I did the CCS Lightweight Formula 40 and GT lights series in the Atlantic and Mid-Atlantic regions last year on a Suzuki SV650. I came away with second place in both regions in GTL and won both regions in Formula 40 as well as got track champion at NJ. The tracks are on the East Coast - CMP, VIR, Summit Point, NJMP. There are still some mods I want to do to the bike so the lathe would come in handy and give me small projects to practice on.
> 
> I do not have the space or budget for the 12X36.



Nice! SV is a solid bike. I have not ridden CMP or VIR. NJMP is a lot of fun...fast track. Do you ever do TDs up at Palmer or NYST? I attend those regularly.

Back OT: I wasn't suggesting 12x36 necessarily, just the general point that if your budget will allow for a smaller machine w/ DRO or larger w/o DRO: buy the latter. 

Given the rest of the discussion: I'm going to say you'll end up with a PM 10x22/10x30, no DRO. It comes with chucks, steadys, etc... On top of that, you'll probably want to immediately get:

a insert turning set
a boring set 
parting blade/TH
drill chuck for the tail stock
a live center
some HSS blanks* 
_*If you get HSS: you'll need a grinder or belt sander to shape/sharpen. There is a fantastic thread here about grinding HSS: __H-M How to Grind..._

That will give you more than enough to get into things. Eventually you'll find you might want threading tools, more QC TH, drills, etc...


----------



## Aaron_W (Apr 14, 2020)

i4Marc said:


> Thanks Aaron. I really don't need a 12X36 or even the 11X29. Heck, I don't even need the 10X30. I'll probably only be making small parts like pommel nuts, screws/bolts, bushings etc. for a while. A 7X12 would likely get me by. But I'm looking at middle size machines for the quality/features, steadiness, parts/accessories availability. A larger machine would be overkill for me.
> 
> Does anyone have a link to the thread discussing the difference between Weiss and PM?



Personally I think the 10x22-ish size is a very nice size for the average tinkerer. Big enough to handle many projects, but not overwhelming to get into your shop, and relatively inexpensive. Everything gets more expensive as you go larger. I was starting to seriously look at the PM1022 myself when the 11x24 found its way to me.  
I brought up larger in case you were not sure on size and basing your decision strictly on getting it into your shop. There are definite advantages to a larger lathe, but liabilities as well (mostly cost, weight and size). Similarly there are distinct advantages and disadvantages to buying used. There are a number of happy PM owners on this site, I don't know if we have any with a Weiss. PM is a supporter of the site, Matt and some of the employees do occasionally respond to technical questions here. They tend to stay out of which lathe to buy threads which is understandable.


Here is the post where Matt responded to the Weiss vs PM thing

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/mills-lathes-that-look-exactly-like-a-pm.82338/#post-717182


----------



## i4Marc (Apr 14, 2020)

After bouncing around looking at different models and comparing specs I might have made a decision. Right now the PM-1127VF is looking like a good compromise between size and features. Now I need to figure out how to pay for it. ;P


----------



## jwmelvin (Apr 14, 2020)

I was in your shoes and a G0602 (Grizzly 10x22) popped up on Craigslist for $750 so I jumped on it. I later added a PM-30MV mill. It’s a good size for most of what I want. I do sometimes yearn for the additional stiffness, size, and features of a 12x36, but I like my machines.


----------

