# Difference Between Brown & Sharpe #9 And Hardinge 9b Collets ???



## Junkyard Jim (May 11, 2016)

I recently got a Burke Millrite MV and it came with some extras but only came with one collet. The manual says it takes a #9 long taper B&S but the collet that was in it says Hardinge 9B.  They look the same from what I can find to look at, but I don't want to buy some and not be able to use them. I contacted Hardinge and they will make 9Bs at almost $200.00 a pop. I found an 11 piece set of B&S (prob made in china) for $160.00.

Does anyone know if these worked in the same holder?  The Hardinge seems to be a 1/2-13 thread. Is the B&S the same?  All dimensions seem to work so I am hoping someone just used the Hardinge because it was what they had and I can buy the cheaper set to do what little I will need to use it.

Also, If anyone has a set of either of these and would like to deal, let me know. Thanks in advance for the help.

James


----------



## Bob Korves (May 11, 2016)

The spindle is B&S #9.  Any collets and other tooling with that size shank should fit.  The import collets will work fine.  They are also available on Ebay in individual sizes.  The ones you need the most are 1/8" increments from 1/4" to 3/4".  Those five collets will handle about everything you need to do.  The seller should state the drawbar thread size (or you can ask), and you can pull the drawbar out of the top of the head and see what thread it has.  They need to match, but if you end up with two different sizes of drawbar threads in your tooling you can make an additional drawbar to fit the second size.  It is not too difficult to change drawbars, there is nothing holding it in besides gravity when the tooling is released.  A bit awkward to pull out the long drawbar from the head regularly, but quite doable.  It would be best if all your commonly used tooling had the same drawbar thread.
Edit: It occurs to me that some of those machines had a drawbar arrangement that, as you continue to unscrew it, presses the tooling out of the spindle.  I have not seen that arrangement, and what I am saying may not apply with that type of drawbar.

If you tighten B&S tapers down tight, they can be difficult to get out, because the shallow taper really grabs the spindle.  Some people actually oil B&S #9 tapers before assembling them so they can get them out again...

Feel free to PM me if you need specific help with your MV.  I have a MVN, and previously had a MVI.  Both R8 taper...


----------



## Junkyard Jim (May 11, 2016)

Thanks Bob....That was what I was hoping to hear.  This one does have the ability to drive the collet out and the one that was in it took some driving. I have no idea how long it had been in there. I probably should have put tension on it and then gave it a little rap with a hammer but hate to start beating on new toys 

I'm sure my drawbar is 1/2-13 thread. It pulls out easy enough but it will be nice if everything is threaded the same.

I have asked the seller what thread his piece has but haven't heard back yet. I may go ahead and pull the trigger on the 11 piece set. It has from 1/8 to 3/4 by eighths and like you said, that will do just fine. I am planning to retire in six months or so and won't be using this thing until I get to the retirement property so it is sitting in storage for now. I just want to get any tooling I may need before I get it set up.

You will probably be hearing from me once I get settled.

thanks again,
James


----------



## Bob Korves (May 11, 2016)

Any time, James.

You can get the drawbar size from the one collet you have.

Another approach to consider is not buying tooling with B&S 9 taper.  Get, say, a 1/2" drill chuck and put a 5/8" straight arbor on it.  Then you can install it in a 5/8" collet.  If you cut off the 5/8" shank to only the length that the collet will grip, you will be able to change tooling with less much headroom to get the tooling out and in.  It is much faster to change that way than removing the taper, too.  Boring heads, various arbors, and lots of different tooling can be handled the same way.  If you plan your tooling sizes well, you can leave the same collet in for quite a long time, just changing the tooling below.  You will also have tooling that will fit other machines as well, and if you get a different mill with a different taper someday, nearly all you tooling will still be usable as is.  There might be an argument for any really heavy duty tooling to have the B&S shank, especially if it is on it's own removable arbor.


----------



## Junkyard Jim (May 11, 2016)

The drawbar is definitely 1/2-13.

I get what you are saying about the drill chuck. That could be handy for sure. There is a Jacobs chuck with the B&S #9 taper on ebay right now I am watching, but may end up taking your suggestion and making my own. The idea makes good sense.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 11, 2016)

You can buy a straight drill chuck adapter and save some time, and perhaps get better accuracy.  
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=477&PMCTLG=00
The import ones are inexpensive.  'Nuff said.
The formerly very good Jacobs products are now made in China, the only thing the same is the pricing.  
The Albrecht arbors are in my opinion the best there is, and they are priced accordingly, $$.  They are made in Germany.  I have a couple on my "best" chucks.  They are VERY nice.

They all look about the same and they all work.


----------



## kd4gij (May 11, 2016)

I find making a straight shank arbor for a drill chuck more accurate than imports. Put I do it different than most people. I make it over size and centered drilled. then turn down a piece of stock. Chuck the drill chuck to it. Using the tail stock then turn the shank to size. My cheap HF chuck now runs true.


----------



## Andre (May 11, 2016)

I believe Wells Index offers a service where they will regrind your BS9 taper spindle to R8. 

My mill has a Brown and Sharpe #7 taper. They're very similar to Morse Taper collets, and I have an import set from Little Machine Shop and have no complaints. I did have to modify them because Bridgeport thought it would be funny to use a slightly shorter OAL collet than standard....along with Metric bearings in the spindle!  It was cut the collets or thread the drawbar further, I hadn't unstuck the drawbar cap then so I cut down the collets. They're mildly hardened but cut fine with a hacksaw.


----------



## Junkyard Jim (May 12, 2016)

I went ahead and ordered the 11 piece set of BS9 collets from ebay. I do plan to make a drill chuck/straight shank for it once up and running.

I also have a Sheldon lathe and will try lots of things to make things easier.  thanks for the idea kd4gij. 

I am fairly new to all this so it was an eye opener to see how many different collets there are in the world and I probably only scratched the surface. Glad you got yours worked out Andre.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 12, 2016)

Yes, Wells Index does recut B&S 9 spindles to R8.  A couple years ago the price was about $250, and you had to pay the freight both ways.  They wanted the assembled quill complete with spindle and bearings.  Not all of the R8 collet is supported by the spindle after the mod.  I would expect that Wells Index would do a nice, accurate job.

Edit: I read all of this on the BurkeMills Yahoo group, and am reporting it second hand, to the best of my recollection.


----------



## middle.road (May 13, 2016)

Well, I'll be dipped in snuff. Wells-Index quoted me $650.00, 15 years ago to regrind the spindle on my model 40 to R-8. 
$250.00, I would have jumped on it. I was in the Chicago area at the time and could have gotten it over to them dirt cheap.

You've already ordered the collets but here's another option for the dear ol' B&S #9
Came with my Index m40.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 13, 2016)

middle.road said:


> Well, I'll be dipped in snuff. Wells-Index quoted me $650.00, 15 years ago to regrind the spindle on my model 40 to R-8.
> $250.00, I would have jumped on it. I was in the Chicago area at the time and could have gotten it over to them dirt cheap.
> 
> You've already ordered the collets but here's another option for the dear ol' B&S #9
> ...


Like I said, my information was second hand.  A sure way to find the actual cost is a single phone call...

I recommend against the R8 conversion unless the existing taper is totally shot.  The conversion leaves smaller than normal mating surfaces for the R8 tooling, and R8 is already marginal in that respect on the larger mills it is factory fitted to.

Your double taper collets are one useful option, but they do steal headroom from the machine.  Edit:  He already ordered a set of B&S 9 collets, so the question is moot at this point.


----------



## Junkyard Jim (May 14, 2016)

The collets were waiting for me when i got home last night. Each one oiled and sealed in plastic inside a hard plastic storage case.  They look good and I can't wait to try them out. Although it will be a while. I'm pretty sure they are more precise than I am 

Middle.road, is that a different spindle or does that piece screw into the existing spindle. The taper looks bigger but I don't see how it mount as a spindle. Something that looks a lot like that holder came with the "extras" I got with this thing but no collets. I'll try to get some pics of it when I get near it again.


----------



## pineyfolks (May 14, 2016)

If you use the 3/4" collet you could get 3/4" drill rod and make drivers for anything and everything you need. Sort of a quick change system on the cheap.


----------



## middle.road (May 16, 2016)

Junkyard Jim said:


> .....
> Middle.road, is that a different spindle or does that piece screw into the existing spindle. The taper looks bigger but I don't see how it mount as a spindle. Something that looks a lot like that holder came with the "extras" I got with this thing but no collets. I'll try to get some pics of it when I get near it again.


It's a #9 BS double angle collet holder made by (IIRC) Universal Tool(ing).
But as Bob noted above, you lose working height/headroom using one of these.
twenty years ago when I got my mill this was in it, and at the time the only collets I could find
we offered by MSC. I bought a 3/4" and it was expensive.


----------



## middle.road (May 16, 2016)

Bob Korves said:


> .........
> Your double taper collets are one useful option, but they do steal headroom from the machine.  Edit:  He already ordered a set of B&S 9 collets, so the question is moot at this point.


I only tossed the pict of the Double Angle collet up as reference in case someone somewhere down the road views this thread.
One can never have to much information...


----------



## Bob Korves (May 17, 2016)

middle.road said:


> I only tossed the pict of the Double Angle collet up as reference in case someone somewhere down the road views this thread.
> One can never have to much information...


That would be a great tooling find for someone trying to tool up a bigger B&S 9 mill like a Gorton or similar.


----------



## Junkyard Jim (May 18, 2016)

I appreciate the info middle.road and you are sooooo right about "never having too much info". I have learned more "accidentally" than I have on purpose by reading old threads and someone throwing info in the mix. Those light bulb moments are what makes this forum interesting as well as informative.


----------

