# Shop ceiling - Victim of my own cheapness



## Reddinr (Feb 14, 2021)

So years ago I got a great deal on a bunch 2x4 T8 troffer lights and a truck load of drop ceiling tiles and grid material.  They were free via a trade and in mostly new condition.  So I got to work hanging a drop ceiling in my shop.  It turned out great.  I recently upgraded to LEDs in them as the T8's were getting old and dim.  The lighting in the shop is just outstanding.  The shop is 30x36' with ceiling at 9'.  The upstairs is a loft space I use for storage.  The roof is a 12/12 pitch so there is good space up there.

Now the problem to solve.  I was too cheap and hated fiberglas too much to do the insulation in the ceiling first.  Yes.  Enjoy my stupidity.
So now I'm lucky to have this really great looking (except for the disorganization), well lit shop space that I can't heat very well.  The heat goes up through the drop ceiling into the loft space like the ceiling wasn't there.  I have a shop stuffed full of machines, tools, materials, various ongoing projects and junk.  What ever I do I'll have all that to work around/protect.

I'm thinking I need to fix this in 2021.   I thought I would either;

  Scrap the drop ceiling and drywall the ceiling.   Probably frame the troffers because now I have $$ tied up in the LED retrofits and they do a great job lighting.
   I would probably hire this out as ceiling drywall is for people younger than me.  Benefit, I gain 8 inches in ceiling height.  Probably the "best" approach.  This sounds  
   expensive though and  I would rather spend on tools.
  or 
  Try to retrofit insulation and some sort of "flow barrier" over the drop ceiling.  (The center 12' of 30' width of the ceiling is decked over in the loft).  So only the edges, 9 Ft., are  reachable from the top side.  Does the paper on insulation provide enough of a flow barrier?  Some other material in addition?  There are all those grid hanging wires to work around of course.  This seems like it would be cheaper but a royal pita.  Not sure how well it would work either.
  or 
  Other?

 What would you do?


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## ddillman (Feb 14, 2021)

cheapest would be fiberglass with a vapor barrier


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## RJSakowski (Feb 14, 2021)

A flow barier for a drop ceiling would be difficult at best due to the hangers. A foil backed insulation woulsd be better than paper.  Better resistance to air flow and  a radiant heat barrier.  Regardless of what you put up though, you will have air leaks at the edges of the tiles.   If it were me, I would opt for drywall with insulation and a vapor barrier above.  Rent a panel lift for the job and it isn't too bad even for a single person.  I did my last ceiling in my sixties.


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## Mitch Alsup (Feb 14, 2021)

You could blow insulation into the area between the ceiling and the roof.

Yes, I know its not as good as if it was done right !
But it is going to be better than nothing.


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## Reddinr (Feb 14, 2021)

RJ - You're probably right but gawd I hate drywalling.  Three houses, retrofits, a shop... I promised myself never again.  But that was a few years ago.   Maybe the back pain, dust and mess wasn't as bad as I remember!

I have seen foil barrier on foam, 3mm or 5mm.  Possibly I could run that across the joists and put batts on top.  It comes in 2' width.  I could snake it between the hangers, notch, overlap, tape etc.  The 4 Ft. length of the tiles runs across the joists so it might work ok.  That's about 600 feet of taping.


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## Dave Smith (Feb 14, 2021)

You didn't say, if in the attic, there was insulation at all between the rafters.--if not then that would be the easiest place to use the insulation rolls with the backing stapled to the rafters--you could use styrofoam sheets instead. then by using  a fan you could circulate the heat that had risen in the upper attic back down to your shop. I know how hard it is to correct a problem after you have a shop full of machines and supplies, but if your storage area in attic isn't packed full then it may be the place to trap  and redistribute the heat. my problem is the previous owner had used unbacked fiberglass rolls or loose fiberglass stuffed in and then stapled up plastic to cover it.  trouble is the squirrells got in and tore the plastic and fiberglass down to make a big mess---now I have to deal with that problem in a confined space.
Dave


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## Reddinr (Feb 14, 2021)

No insulation between the rafters.  The roof is a pre-made truss type with a "room" cut-out in the middle.  It is stuffed with left overs from old work projects etc.  Will need to consider that way to go too.  It would be much easier although I would need to do some crawling between each truss at the eves.  It wouldn't be half bad to have heat up there too.


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## RJSakowski (Feb 14, 2021)

Reddinr said:


> RJ - You're probably right but gawd I hate drywalling.  Three houses, retrofits, a shop... I promised myself never again.  But that was a few years ago.   Maybe the back pain, dust and mess wasn't as bad as I remember!
> 
> I have seen foil barrier on foam, 3mm or 5mm.  Possibly I could run that across the joists and put batts on top.  It comes in 2' width.  I could snake it between the hangers, notch, overlap, tape etc.  The 4 Ft. length of the tiles runs across the joists so it might work ok.  That's about 600 feet of taping.


For a shop, your drywall finishing only has to be a s good as your sensibilities allow.  In my experience, it is the taping and mudding that is the most onerous.  I tend to be OCD that way and want every joint to be perfect.  I don't cover up less than perfect with texture.  But for a shop ceiling, it shouldn't be too bad.  With a proper vapor barrier above, you wouldn't even have to mud and tape to get the effect you want.


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## AGCB97 (Feb 14, 2021)

Is the access to the loft inside (stairway) or from the outside?
 Is the loft well ventilated (both inlets and outlets)?

Drop ceilings and built in lights are nearly impossible to put a vaper barrier on. The good news is, unless  there is water (sink, toilet) in the shop and if you only use it less than 8 hours per day and mostly one person, the need for a perfect vapor barrier is much less than in a house with multiple people 24 hours per day, many water sources and cooking. 

Aaron


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## Reddinr (Feb 14, 2021)

The loft has an inside enclosed stairway with a door at the bottom.  The roof has continuous soffit vents and a continuous vent at the peak so it is well vented.  If I insulated the rafters I would need to put in the "top hat" spacers I think so that the flow continues.


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## Reddinr (Feb 14, 2021)

RJ - I would need the joints near-perfect.  I could deal with some texture but the joints have to be invisible or it would bug me.  Whoever did my garage at the house did an awful job.  It is on my list to fix that someday too.


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## AGCB97 (Feb 14, 2021)

I would probably look into blowing insulation on top of your lower ceiling. Since you already have LED lights and there is no fire danger from those and the upper level is well ventilated the only problem may be getting at the top of that lower ceiling depending on what type of flooring is on the upper floor or what access there is from below.

If that's a no-go then the best way is to rip out the entire ceiling including built-in lights and put faced insulation and drywall. I would revamp the LED tubes to be like the 'integrated' ones and hang them from or on the drywall.

The second way is a lot more work and expense.

A lot depends on who does the work and what kind of building codes need to be maintained. 

A church I used to attend put on a small addition and did the drop ceiling thing for ease and convenience. Every winter, because of such a poor vaper barrier, the moisture would go through the ceiling, freeze on the roof boards above and then the first warm spell would melt the ice and stain the ceiling tiles. They thought the roof was leaking so the entire roof was replaced once and that section of the building was reroofed again a couple years later to no avail. Unless they ripped out that drop ceiling and put in a proper vapor barrier I suspect it is still happening.

Aaron


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## Larry$ (Feb 14, 2021)

You're in a pretty humid neighborhood. And it can get relatively cold. A formula for condensation. If it was my choice I'd bite the bullet, drywall and insulate with vapor barrier. Less than perfect seams? Not likely to show a lot if the lighting doesn't graze the surface. Just don't look up!   I hate mudding enough that I would consider hiring it done. There might be moonlighters around that are relatively cheap.
I'm in an area that makes good insulation very desirable. It's 4:30 pm and -7F headed for a low tonight of -19F. Colder than normal.


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## FOMOGO (Feb 14, 2021)

Retro fitting is always a pain at best. I hear you on sheet rocking, but I would bite the bullet, and do it right once. I think in the end you will be happier. Especially when you look at future heating bills, and your comfort level in the "Golden Years". Mike


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## 7milesup (Feb 14, 2021)

Drywall has an insulating R-value of 0.5.  If you are trying to stop heat transfer and thinking about drywall to do that, you are wasting your time (and money).  Sure, it will stop the wind from blowing through, but that is about it.
If you are trying to stop heat transfer within the building, you essentially need to look at it as an envelope, but what you are trying to do is build an envelope in an envelope.
My suggestion would be spray foam.  Pull out some of the panels in the ceiling to have the contractor spray the foam up in there, or better yet, spray the foam in the upper area.  Cover everything because that foam will get everywhere.  If you decide to do this, use closed cell foam because it will also be a vapor barrier.
The rest of the suggestions, as well intended as they are, will not work.


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## Larry$ (Feb 14, 2021)

I don't think anyone was suggesting that drywall was an insulation. It is a means of holding rockwool or fiberglass bats in place after they have been stapled up with their own or additional vapor barrier. It also provides a finished appearance.
You will need to explain to us why this won't work. Spray foam is great insulation but is a hell of a mess. If I understood correctly there is not a full attic floor to spray the foam against. Spraying foam behind the ceiling grid would be an interesting challenge.


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## RJSakowski (Feb 14, 2021)

Drywall isn't a good insulator but it does stop drafts.  Having lived in a 100 y.o. home, I can attest to the value in eliminating air leaks.


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## Janderso (Feb 14, 2021)

Do you have spray foam contractors in Buckley WA?
7milesup is in spray foam country.
I doubt if we have anyone that does it in Northern CA, but I’m not sure.
I think 2” of closed cell in the ceiling, above the false ceiling may be the answer?
That stuff looks amazing.


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## 7milesup (Feb 14, 2021)

The OP has a grid ceiling system.  Putting insulating batts in a grid ceiling system will be, shall we say, challenging.   Sure, it can be done.  Maybe even it would be fun.  No, never mind, it would not be fun.
You could dump rock wool or vermiculite above the ceiling grid, assuming the panels can hold it.  But then, you can forget about doing any maintenance above the panels (like running wires or anything else).  
There was earlier mention of installing a vapor barrier above the suspended ceiling, but that would be a waste of time and effort too.  Vapor barrier does just that, it slows the transmission of vapor.  
The other option is to insulate the upper area (loft?) and heat the whole thing.
There is a common saying on this forum about buy once, cry once.   Do it right.


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## 7milesup (Feb 14, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I think 2” of closed cell in the ceiling, above the false ceiling may be the answer?
> That stuff looks amazing.


Yes.  This.


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## Reddinr (Feb 14, 2021)

Don't they have to spray the foam onto some backing (like a wall or under an upper deck)?  About half of my top floor is decked but the other half is open to the attic area (except for the drop ceiling).   Even on the part that is decked over they would have to shoot it through the grid, which would be tough I think.

I'm pretty sure that I would need both an air-flow barrier and insulation to be effective at blocking off the upper area.  It would be no fun at all to try to push batts up into the joists through the grid.  

Closed cell foam??  Is that the styro-foam-like board stuff?


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## Reddinr (Feb 14, 2021)

Apparently there are insulating 2x4 tiles that can be used.  They have an air barrier and insulation.  About $4K worth of them...

Or, maybe this.  R13.  I have 2' on-center joists, I think I can tight-fit these between the joists and maybe tape the seams.  It would leave open the possibility of putting batts on top if needed for greater R.  Would cost about $1500 or so.

Big mistake or "might just work"?


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## RJSakowski (Feb 14, 2021)

Closed cell foam is a two part system similar to Great Stuff polyurethane foam.  It is closed cell.  When it is applied, the excess is usually removed mechanically.  It is arguably the best insulation but not the cheapest.  If you spray it in, any future modifications will require cutting and removing foam.  Although LED fixtures don't develop a great deal of heat, there is usually a requirement for ventilation.  LEDs are self distructive in that regard and heat buildup , although not a fire hazard, can shorten the life of the luminaire as well as decreasing the light output.


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## RJSakowski (Feb 14, 2021)

As to fitting Batts to the existing ceiling joists, it isn't that bad a job if you use faced batting and your joists are standard width.


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## 7milesup (Feb 14, 2021)

Apparently, I am not completely understanding your shop layout.

The Dow foam board you see at home building centers is extruded polystyrene (hence the XPS).  Spray foam is polyurethane foam that uses an A and B component mixed together to create the foam.  Yes, foam has to be sprayed onto a substrate, which can be nearly anything, including OSB, sheetrock, or even cardboard.  The density of foam is usually referred in lbs, which is  "lbs per cubic foot".  The XPS foam is roughly 2 lbs per cubic foot, which is about the same as the closed cell spray foam.  There is also open cell spray foam which is fine too, it just does not provide for a vapor barrier.  Open cell foam is usually about 30% cheaper than closed cell.

Edit:  As far as the LED lights go, with troffers lights installed, that should not be an issue, unless you spray foam right on top of the fixture.  When I built my new house last year I built a foam box (XPS) in the attic for each can light in the ceiling and then we spray foamed the box down to the drywall along with all of the wire penetrations.
Can you tell I am a nut when it comes to insulating structures?!   
Oh, I also have T-studs in my house.  First house in the state of Wisconsin to be built with them.


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## Jackle1312 (Feb 14, 2021)

It really depends on you budget. Best option is spray foam to seal and insulate followed by drywall or fire resistant coating. I would do any work at the roof level and not at the drop ceiling. There are diy spray foam kits now which are easy to use. To lower cost you can use a layer of closed cell followed by open cell to build up r value


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## Reddinr (Feb 14, 2021)

The T-Studs are quite a good idea.  As far as foam goes,  I've always thought that it would be very tough to retrofit any electrical in a foamed house. 

To clarify, here is what my shop roof truss looks like.  It is designed with a "room" down the center.  The center 12' is decked over with OSB but the rest is open through the ceiling joists to the roof (if you ignore the drop ceiling).    The actual truss has another brace in the "open" area so putting something on top of the joists for spray foam to adhere would be a piece-wise operation.


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## 7milesup (Feb 14, 2021)

So, why not insulate the roof trusses then?  Do you have enough room for a few ceiling fans?  You said you had 9 foot ceilings so that might be an option.

You are correct that retrofitting wiring after spray foam is pretty much a non-starter.  But, if the foam is an issue, so would the drywall.


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## rjs44032 (Feb 14, 2021)

Ok. Here's what I did. My 24 x 40 workshop is in NE Ohio. Cold and long winters here. Anyways after the first season, it was obvious I needed insulation. Luckily I hadn't put in a drop ceiling yet.

I Got R38 fiberglass for the ceiling. It comes in bats (2' x 4'). So I grabbed a ladder and a staple gun and began stapling. By the time I started on the third one I was convinced this was not the way to go. I went to back to Home Depot.

I purchased 2 boxes of small 3/32" eye screws (the kind with wood screw thread). I drove them into the 24' ends of the building headers, spaced 1 foot apart, offset 6". Then I grabbed a spool of 30lb test mono-fill fishing line and strung the ceiling with it, stapling across it at every truss. This provided a scaffold of fishing line that the bats would lay on. After I completed stringing the ceiling, I had all the bats in place in less than 2 hours. Trust me it was nice to get done with the fiberglass overhead quickly.

It immediately made a difference. Then I did the side walls with R13. I did staple the tops of the R13 to keep them from falling. That was more than 20 years ago. The original plan was to put in drop ceiling, but I haven't gotten to that yet. Instead I put on temporary lighting and have been using it that way to the present. It's still on the todo list but the drywall on the sidewalls has to come first.

Addendum: With the ceiling and sidewalls insulated, I am able to heat the entire building (24w x 40L x 10h) comfortably with just two ventless ng heaters. And they cycle off even during the coldest winters.

Hope this helps or at least is food for thought.

Best Regards,
Bob


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## FOMOGO (Feb 15, 2021)

2" of spray foam only has an r-value of 14. It does a good job of sealing out drafts, but if you have any kind of winter, you should be looking at R38 minimum. That's a standard 9" fiberglass batt. Mike


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## Eddyde (Feb 15, 2021)

As a General Contractor, I have a lot of experience with regular and spray foam insulation, Drywall, etc.

I don't recommend spray foaming or blown-in insulation above the drop ceiling grid. Foam will be messy and difficult to apply evenly with all the obstructions. Ceiling tiles are not designed to carry any weight and will sag even under the weigh of blown cellulose, also the troffers are not designed for insulation contact and even with LED lamps could have excess heat issues.

If you are happy with the ceiling grid an the lighting I would say leave it and insulate under the roof. There, spray foam is the quickest, easiest and best insulative way to go, but not the cheapest. Hybrid methods: Spray 2" of foam and then a layer of fiberglass batts. Or use a layer of rigid foam board or boards, depending on the desired R value, leaving a gap around the perimeter then filling the gap with spray foam sealing and securing the boards in place. I am actually using this method on a home I am currently renovating, I'll post some pictures later. 

If you decide to go the spray foam route, you can either hire a contractor of do it yourself with foam kits.


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## TCSmith (Feb 15, 2021)

Couldn't you just have a spray foam company spray the underside of the roof deck and seal up the soffits?  My understanding is that this method doesn't require attic venting.
Minimal disturbance to the drop ceiling and shop, warm place to work.  Side benefit is your storage space is warmed.


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## 7milesup (Feb 15, 2021)

TCSmith said:


> Couldn't you just have a spray foam company spray the underside of the roof deck and seal up the soffits?  My understanding is that this method doesn't require attic venting.
> Minimal disturbance to the drop ceiling and shop, warm place to work.  Side benefit is your storage space is warmed.


Couple of caveats with that.
1.)  The thickness of the foam has to be greater than the anticipated dew point between the outside and the inside, meaning the dew point must fall within the foam thickness.  If it falls inside the building envelope, you may have condensation issues.  That all depends on RH inside the building.  I am going to guess that considering where the OP lives, even 2 or 3 inches would meet that criteria.
2.)  The method you describe TC is called a "hot roof".  The one possible disadvantage is the shingle company may void the warranty.  It seems that shingle companies void warranties no matter what so probably not an issue...

Edit:  TCSmith... yes, I personally think that your suggestion is the most viable.


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## Larry$ (Feb 15, 2021)

7milesup said:


> 1.) The thickness of the foam has to be greater than the anticipated dew point between the outside and the inside, meaning the dew point must fall within the foam thickness. If it falls inside the building envelope, you may have condensation issues.


So true!
That became a big problem when blown in insulation started to be used around here. With no vapor barrier moisture would enter the insulation . When it reached the dew point it would condense. The insulation would then be heavy and settle. The water would trickle down to the 2x4 plate and rot would finish the job.


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## Howard E. (Feb 15, 2021)

I did my roof with 2" reflective foam attached to the roof joists & fiberglass between that & the roof sheathing; it works *very* well but you have to get seriously religious about sealing the cracks & gaps up.


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## 7milesup (Feb 15, 2021)

This does not reflect directly onto this thread but here is a picture of my thermostat at noon.  It is set to roll back to 62 at 8am.  The house had lost one degree by noon. It was -30F this morning.  
This is building science done correctly.  Please dont be offended by my remarks,  I just wanted to show what can be done.


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## Dabbler (Feb 15, 2021)

I live in Alberta, and did quite a bit of contracting in my time, so here's my 2 cents...

We regularly get -30C here and so insulation is an important thing for us.  Here's a few things I've learned over 40 years:

 - Don't drywall the ceiling of your shop [unless it is required by building code].  It costs (here) a similar cost for 1/2" plywood.  zinc white paint is more reflective than most ceiling tiles. plywood will support  insulation better.  Most garages are framed with greater tolerances than a house and getting the stuff up so it stays is a real pain.  Been there.  plywood can be more forgiving when there is nothing to screw to - the bridge is just another piece of plywood.

- ensure you vapour barrier is correctly taped and sealed.  With just vapour barrier and ply you will notice that heat will stay in better.

- if you get any serious cold weather, spraying foam on the underside of your roof will be a disaster.  I've fixed 2 houses and a garage that have fallen prey to an unscrupulous insulating contractor.  Given time. moisture will collect between the watertight roof and the vapour-tight insulation, resulting in structural rot.  All 3 buildings had to have their roofs restructured and replaced.

- After vapour barrier and ply, feel free to use whatever insulation you like:  For garages I like to roll R12 between the trusses and follow up with R12 in styroboard or another layer of laid fibreglass.  If you have  a good deal on blown in, it is the fastest.

-lastly, ensure that you have good ventalation for your roof cavity.  Having it draw away moisture is key to keeping your structure safe.


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## Dabbler (Feb 17, 2021)

For another take on doing a ceiling for warmth, have a look at Steve Summers shop rebuild:  it is cheap and very good, but isn't fireproof...


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## Scruffy (Feb 19, 2021)

I would never drywall anything in a shop. In my last two buildings its metal ceiling and metal on the walls. 
Scruffy Ron in Ohio


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## nnam (Feb 20, 2021)

I echo some above.  Ventilation and moisture barrier.  A thin sheet of plastic that seals well is a great heat barrier.   Try reflextix or things like that.
Mold and rot is #1 thing to watch out for.  Next is maintenance, people may need access there one day.
Other than that, any thick and cheap insulation would do.  Watch out for great deal on overstock, private sale if you have time. 

Drywall is hard to do for ceiling.   Would need the lift or friends.  Sanding is a pain, but a rotary vacuum sander for drywall can help, still very hard and hurt.

It all comes down to cost after all, but don't cut corner.  Moisture is the problem, then cost.  Everything else is about air tight and thickness.
I hate fiberglass btw, it's itchy and cancerous.  But what else are out there...

Good luck with your project.


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## 7milesup (Feb 20, 2021)

Reflective barriers are worthless unless you put them on the outside of a building in a warm climate. 
A plastic barrier that is sealed will slow down vapor transfer and stop the wind from blowing through.

Read this article on reflective insulation.   https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.co...-by-hd-and-lowes-and-used-by-many-contractors

There is very little understanding of building science, certainly among the general population, and even most contractors have very limited grasp on how to slow heat transfer.


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## Howard E. (Feb 20, 2021)

7milesup said:


> Reflective barriers are worthless unless you put them on the outside of a building in a warm climate.



From my experience I'd have to disagree with that.  I've done a basement as well as the garage ceiling with reflective foam.  I can attest that he stuff I used does indeed do a very good job of reflecting heat verified with both an ir camera & the simple expedient of standing about 3' away from the corners in the basement- I could easily feel my body heat being reflected back at me.  Of course in the basement I had to to cover it over with drywall to meet fire code but as long as you leave an air gap between the drywall & foil it will work as advertised.


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## 7milesup (Feb 20, 2021)

Howard E. said:


> From my experience I'd have to disagree with that.  I've done a basement as well as the garage ceiling with reflective foam.  I can attest that he stuff I used does indeed do a very good job of reflecting heat verified with both an ir camera & the simple expedient of standing about 3' away from the corners in the basement- I could easily feel my body heat being reflected back at me.  Of course in the basement I had to to cover it over with drywall to meet fire code but as long as you leave an air gap between the drywall & foil it will work as advertised.


I think we are talking about two different products.  I was referencing "nnam" and his reflective barrier, which is just bubble wrap with a reflective coating.  *Reflectix at Home Depot*

Products like closed-cell polyisocyanurate foam that has the reflective coating, usually on one side, is far superior to the Reflectix type of product.  The closed-cell polyisocyanurate foam with a reflective layer has an R value of about 6 per inch.


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## Howard E. (Feb 20, 2021)

I'll agree that the r value of the bubble wrap isn't great & I certainly would not use the bubble stuff on it's own but whether it's bubble wrap or the foiled rigid foam radiant reflectivity is definitely a big help in keeping heat inside.  Consider emergency blankets- that thin piece of mylar can keep someone pretty warn.


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## BGHansen (Feb 21, 2021)

I'm happy with my ceiling and insulation. My shop takes up 32' x 40' of a 40' x 96' pole barn. Width is the 40'. I used 16' x 3' white barn steel for the ceiling. It cost $25 a sheet back in the day or about $17 per foot over the 40' width. I recall pricing drywall at about half the cost minus tape, mud, paint and the cost of renting a jack. I hung the steel with all of the shop equipment in place. I screwed a cleat to the wall that was moved for each sheet. There was a frame hinged to the cleat made from a couple of pieces of the angle steel used on the stack of barn steel to protect the edges when banded. Ran a 2 x 2 cross piece with a hinged 2 x 4 that when lifted got the steel a couple of inches from the bottom of the trusses. 

It went up pretty quickly, was able to work around everything in place. Screwed up the steel with drywall screws. Electrical boxes were a bit of a pain but were manageable. I insulated with 10" or 12" batts and have since gone over that with 6" more. 

I keep the shop at 40 F and bump it up to 50-55 F when I'm out working. Happy to say that there's as much snow on the heated shop roof as there is on the rest of the barn.

Bruce


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