# Setup and Continuing Saga of the Charter Oak 12Z



## wrmiller (Oct 10, 2014)

Well, today I spent a few more hours with the mill.

Jon: I measured my table and the slots are like .645 which is 20 thou over 5/8". I think (hope?) I'll be fine with the clamping kit when it arrives.

I got him leveled, adjusted the gibbs ever so slightly, put the plug on the power cord (and connected the RS485 cable from the VFD front panel) and fired it up. Very nice, and not too noisy although if I had to listen to this for any length of time above 3k rpm it might start to grate. The pulley conversion kit should fix that though. The electric fan on the motor and the VFD make almost as much noise as the head does.

Question for those with VFDs? The digital display reads from 0-50 (which is full speed) is this indicative of the frequency/Hz? It seems to be happiest above 30 or so. Do most of you just tweak the frequency for chatter/finish?  Sorry, this is my first VFD and haven't any experience with them.

I checked tram and didn't have to touch anything. X-axis is dead on and Y-axis is less than a half-thou across 6". Close enough for my purposes.

I don't like the idea of having to plug/unplug this thing every time I use it, and these plug/receptacles are not designed for it and will wear. Guess I may have to have the electrician back out to put a switch on this thing. Or something. Electrical isn't my forte.

The other nag is that I got really used to (and spoiled by) being able to just take a step back and reach down into a drawer for all my cutters, collets, rotary table, etc.. With this setup I have to walk over to Blue's tool box every time I need something. It's already getting old. I have a friend that likes to work with wood and I was thinking that I may ask his opinion about making some drawers for the mill stand. That would be kinda cool.

As we all like pics around here, I've included a few for your perusal.  )

Left side of the head showing the VFD remote




I'd say the tram is close enough.




Oh, and I was lucky enough to find someone here on the board who was selling a Kurt 5".




Shop is getting messy again...


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## drs23 (Oct 10, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> *Oh, and I was lucky enough to find someone here on the board who was selling a Kurt 5".
> *
> View attachment 85402



Yeah, and how was that packed and shipped?  :rofl:


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## wrmiller (Oct 10, 2014)

Very funny dude...

My fingers still cramp every time I think about that.


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## zmotorsports (Oct 10, 2014)

Lookin good Bill.  Nice looking machine.


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## coolidge (Oct 10, 2014)

Edit: False alarm people never mind. Nice looking mill Bill, is that some kind of safety cable to keep the head from lowering too far, to the left of the spindle sticking up out of the top?


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## wrmiller (Oct 10, 2014)

What you're looking at is the remote panel. The box showing in the other pic is mounted on the back of the column.

EDIT: Look at the last pic. I posted.

No worries...


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## coolidge (Oct 10, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> What you're looking at is the remote panel. The box showing in the other pic is mounted on the back of the column.
> 
> EDIT: Look at the last pic. I posted.
> 
> No worries...



LOL yeah false alarm, I was about to get huffy! Irritating = someone driving 15mph under the speed limit in fast lane followed closely by I don't like receiving something different than was advertised!


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Edit: False alarm people never mind. Nice looking mill Bill, is that some kind of safety cable to keep the head from lowering too far, to the left of the spindle sticking up out of the top?



That is a plastic tube that is zip-tied to the cooling fan cable. Pressure vent for the head.


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## darkzero (Oct 11, 2014)

Looking good Bill! I Should have sent the handle to you the same way!  :rofl:


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Looking good Bill! I Should have sent the handle to you the same way!  :rofl:



I will be ever thankful that you didn't.  :nono:


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

More thoughts:

I definitely have to put a power feed on this thing. I put a DI on the head and checked the flatness and orthogonality of the table (didn't need to, but I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't) and cranking this thing back and forth just over 26" is very tiring. FYI the usable Y-axis travel is over 13".

And I put a DI on the head and was playing with positional accuracy and repeatability of the Z-axis using the hand crank. About the same as my PM25 actually, so I will put the Z-axis scale on the head/column, not the quill like the factory does. The quill mechanism is sloppy and a friction interface to boot. I will cobble up a digital scale for the quill for the rare occasion when I have to plunge cut a pocket. Now I just have to save up for the power feed and a 3-axis DRO. And everything else I want. This site is costing me a lot of money...


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## kd4gij (Oct 11, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> More thoughts:
> 
> I definitely have to put a power feed on this thing. I put a DI on the head and checked the flatness and orthogonality of the table (didn't need to, but I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't) and cranking this thing back and forth just over 26" is very tiring. FYI the usable Y-axis travel is over 13".
> 
> And I put a DI on the head and was playing with positional accuracy and repeatability of the Z-axis using the hand crank. About the same as my PM25 actually, so I will put the Z-axis scale on the head/column, not the quill like the factory does. The quill mechanism is sloppy and a friction interface to boot. I will cobble up a digital scale for the quill for the rare occasion when I have to plunge cut a pocket. Now I just have to save up for the power feed and a 3-axis DRO. And everything else I want. This site is costing me a lot of money...






 Don't forget a power feed for the head. Then mabe a CNC conversion. Then time for a bigger mill.:lmao:


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

kd4gij said:


> Don't forget a power feed for the head. Then mabe a CNC conversion. Then time for a bigger mill.:lmao:



See?? You guys are SO helpful.  

Kidding aside, Paul at CO did mention that he has a "elevator" kit for the Z-axis, i.e. a manual power feed. The only way I will do that is if I can use it for rapids but still use the hand crank for accurate positioning like a X-axis power feed. I'm not interested in dumbing down the Z-axis just to save on my forearms and shoulders.

I'll forward the suggestions of the CNC kit and bigger mill on to the wife. I'm sure she'll appreciate them.


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## coolidge (Oct 11, 2014)

CAD/CAM software, a rotary table, belt drive, the wallet melting has only just begun. Whirrr-ah, Whirr-ah that's the sound of a power feed on Z.


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

Almost forgot: I have to get a 3-axis DRO too. I'm too spoiled to count dial turns and worry about backlash anymore. DRO-Pros 3M, that way I have the same functions/usage on both mills. The brain-housing-group ain't gettin' any younger...  :headscratch:


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## coolidge (Oct 11, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Almost forgot: *I have to get a 3-axis DRO too*. I'm too spoiled to count dial turns and worry about backlash anymore. DRO-Pros 3M, that way I have the same functions/usage on both mills. The brain-housing-group ain't gettin' any younger...  :headscratch:



Instigator hat on...no need for a DRO just convert it to CNC.


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Instigator hat on...no need for a DRO just convert it to CNC.



You're a lot of help...  

I understand some peoples fascination w/CNC and the requirement for it in a production shop. But I do mostly one off stuff. Sometimes I don't even know how far I'm going to translate along an axis until I get there. Until they make a CNC with a super AI I'll just have to drive this thing myself.


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

A couple of better pics for those interested. Well, they're better than the others.


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## coolidge (Oct 11, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> You're a lot of help...
> 
> I understand some peoples fascination w/CNC and the requirement for it in a production shop. But I do mostly one off stuff. Sometimes I don't even know how far I'm going to translate along an axis until I get there. Until they make a CNC with a super AI I'll just have to drive this thing myself.



You are looking for the AI in the wrong place, you will find it in your CAD software. CNC will enable your mind to go places no manual mill can ever go design wise. For example the next thing you know you will build one of these once your mill can do CNC and you unleash all those bottled up ideas!


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

Ok dude, I'll bite. Just what exactly am I looking at?


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## maker of things (Oct 11, 2014)

Once you get a powered Z changing r8 endmill holders and er collet chucks won't be a big deal either.  Other than reaching the drawbar.  Make those tool drawers heavy duty then they can double as steps.

Good to hear on the slots, I never measured either the slot or the 5/8 t nut, maybe I just picked up a +tolerance t nut?

Some people are going to start to think you are never going to actually use this thing though, 3 threads with 130+ posts combined and still not one chip showing?


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## darkzero (Oct 11, 2014)

The ultimate beer can crusher? Or he's making diamonds? :rofl:

I'm curious too.....


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## chuckorlando (Oct 11, 2014)

ahahahahahahahahaha.

She's pretty. I'm not gonna lie, I got a cnc bug from hell right now. Small bed mills seem to do well cnc'd


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Once you get a powered Z changing r8 endmill holders and er collet chucks won't be a big deal either.  Other than reaching the drawbar.  Make those tool drawers heavy duty then they can double as steps.
> 
> Good to hear on the slots, I never measured either the slot or the 5/8 t nut, maybe I just picked up a +tolerance t nut?
> 
> Some people are going to start to think you are never going to actually use this thing though, 3 threads with 130+ posts combined and still not one chip showing?



Ok, enough of this...




CHIPS!!! (well actually, more like nasty little slivers). Happy?  

It was just a few passes, but I made a small pile just because I knew when I came back in the house someone would be ragging on me about not making chips yet. NOTE: I need to make some way wipers for this thing because something (before I cut, not during or after) got under the saddle on the right Y way and gouged the way. Had to loosen the gibb and work it back and forth to get whatever it was out. Came out as powder... Not good.

The clamping kit showed up today and the 5/8" t-nuts fit perfectly. Oh, and just for you Jon.




I've never tried a selfie, and it's really bad but dude, I'm 6'3" and there is still 3" of vertical travel left and I can't reach the motor. I've got more Z-axis envelope than I'll ever need. Probably.  )


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## JimDawson (Oct 11, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Ok dude, I'll bite. Just what exactly am I looking at?





darkzero said:


> The ultimate beer can crusher? Or he's making diamonds? :rofl:
> 
> I'm curious too.....



Pretty sure that is a home made vacuum former and a very nice job too.   I just can't figure out what the pressure pot on the right is for.


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## darkzero (Oct 11, 2014)

Ah scew 'em Bill, who cares what they say. People rag on me for keeping my machines much cleaner than they do as they see in specific pics I post. So what if I like to keep my investments clean & not have a messy garage. Make chips when you're good & ready just as I don't have to show a filthy machine to prove that I do use them often.

Nice photos keep em' coming, chips not required.


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## darkzero (Oct 11, 2014)

JimDawson said:


> I just can't figure out what the pressure pot on the right is for.



A whole lotta pot roast?


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## chuckorlando (Oct 11, 2014)

Wow man thats pretty impressive. You will find that a real joy to run if you like the pm25. Just on size alone. Awesome man


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## coolidge (Oct 11, 2014)

JimDawson said:


> Pretty sure that is a home made vacuum former and a very nice job too.   I just can't figure out what the pressure pot on the right is for.



Correct that is a vacuum powered thermoforming machine. She was a beast, dual 6cfm pumps and dual reserve tanks, the thick ABS I was molding you had to SLAM the mold with vacuum and draw it down in like 1.5 seconds. As for the pressure pot, if you want to remove the bubbles from well anything, epoxy, urethane, etc. place in a pressure pot and hit it with a vacuum pump and presto bubbles be gone. I was doing some liquid silicone (yeah liquid silicone cool stuff) molding at the time.


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## coolidge (Oct 11, 2014)

Bill congrats on making chips! Too bad about the Y way, any chance it came off the vice or something else? Bah it will make a nice oil reservoir happy milling!


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Bill congrats on making chips! Too bad about the Y way, any chance it came off the vice or something else? Bah it will make a nice oil reservoir happy milling!



I'm thinking it was a iron shaving in the Y-axis gibb area. It made a shallow gouge in the base way and made a black powder streak down the way. I stoned it out and yea you're right, it will make a nice little oil galley. I will pull the gibb strips for the x and y axis' tomorrow and squirt some brake cleaner or something in there to flush the area out.


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## coolidge (Oct 11, 2014)

Bill have you considered running grease instead of way oil? I'm only asking because I had read that Haas and other manufactures had switched to grease for ways on some machines vs way oil, less required and you don't pollute the coolant with a layer of way oil. On my old RF45 mill I used way oil, just brushed it on with a brush, it made a marginal mess I guess. Just thinking out loud. Way wipers is a good idea, even if they are just stiff nylon brush type I seem to recall that's what my old ball nuts had to sweep chips off the ball screw to keep them out of the nut.


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## maker of things (Oct 12, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Ok, enough of this...
> 
> View attachment 85450
> 
> ...




Yes.  But hopefully not as much as you.  The boss is coming right along now.  Your next mission, should you choose to accept it, is to break at least one of the way locks on the x axis.  I took care of that awhile ago on mine despite my best efforts to the contrary.  The x axis locks (on all bed mills that I have seen) are so susceptible to getting snapped off when they lock sticking up.  The y locks won't get broken, but they are a little chincy IMO.


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## maker of things (Oct 12, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Ah scew 'em Bill, who cares what they say. People rag on me for keeping my machines much cleaner than they do as they see in specific pics I post. So what if I like to keep my investments clean & not have a messy garage. Make chips when you're good & ready just as I don't have to show a filthy machine to prove that I do use them often.
> 
> Nice photos keep em' coming, chips not required.



I haven't wiped my 12z paint down yet, and it still looks cleaner than my pm1440 that has been doted on.  Maybe black is the new clean?


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Bill have you considered running grease instead of way oil? I'm only asking because I had read that Haas and other manufactures had switched to grease for ways on some machines vs way oil, less required and you don't pollute the coolant with a layer of way oil. On my old RF45 mill I used way oil, just brushed it on with a brush, it made a marginal mess I guess. Just thinking out loud. Way wipers is a good idea, even if they are just stiff nylon brush type I seem to recall that's what my old ball nuts had to sweep chips off the ball screw to keep them out of the nut.



Interesting you should mention that, because the mill comes with a decent grease on the ways and screws (there was little to no cleanup required on this thing). I wonder which is better though? I won't have any flood coolant to pollute as I'm probably going to get a FogBuster for my coolant/cutting fluid needs.

 I still like the idea of CO's one-shot oiler. This is the first mill I've owned that has these little ball valves everywhere for the ways and screws. Probably where the one-shot installs. Kinda cool.


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

maker of things said:


> I haven't wiped my 12z paint down yet, and it still looks cleaner than my pm1440 that has been doted on.  Maybe black is the new clean?



Yup! Black does look better. Especially when you wipe it down and it gets all shiny (shows fingerprints though). )


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## John Hasler (Oct 12, 2014)

Somebody needs to bring out a paint that dries to a greasy-looking mottled gray with fingerprint-like striations.


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

maker of things said:


> [/FONT]
> 
> Yes.  But hopefully not as much as you.  The boss is coming right along now.  Your next mission, should you choose to accept it, is to break at least one of the way locks on the x axis.  I took care of that awhile ago on mine despite my best efforts to the contrary.  The x axis locks (on all bed mills that I have seen) are so susceptible to getting snapped off when they lock sticking up.  The y locks won't get broken, but they are a little chincy IMO.



It was kinda satisfying. But now I have to clean up so I can continue setup and install of the DRO, but it's not a very big mess. Did you have this gray/black stuff in your table slots when you got your mill? It looks like a grinding slurry to me. Had to get all that gunk out of there so the t-nuts would slide in. 

I agree with the frailty of the locks. Had the one on the right (x axis) slip down and jam on the base as I was backing the table away from the column. Ooops! (didn't break though). And yea, the y axis locks are kinda cheesy looking/feeling. May have to do something about that. And then there's that thingie clamped on the quill: Big, ugly, and makes it difficult to see a cutter. I'm probably going to pull that contraption out and replace it with a digital scale and (much) smaller clamp on the quill. I do like modding my tools...
  :morningcoffee:


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

More pics. Enjoy.  )

Front controls



Under table shots





Head/column interface (huge!)





Lotsa Y-axis travel!





At this point the spindle is ~2" off the front of the table. 



There's no way to convey the size of this 'bench mill'. The 5" Kurt is looking a little small. Those with PM 945/932s will understand as this is (I think) a very similar machine with slightly larger base and column.


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## drs23 (Oct 12, 2014)

Bill,

Are you going to install way covers on the Y? Also, is a power feed available on a machine for the Z where the head travels in lieu of a knee?


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

drs23 said:


> Bill,
> 
> Are you going to install way covers on the Y? Also, is a power feed available on a machine for the Z where the head travels in lieu of a knee?



I will trim the Y cover behind the table (too much material that binds/pinches between the table and column) and want to make way wipers, probably out of aluminum or brass, for the front as I hate those accordion covers there because they are always in my way and never seem to keep the ways clear of chips. 

In talking to Paul at CO, and there is a manual (non-CNC) "elevator" he called it, motor and mount for the Z axis. I will investigate further, but surprisingly, the Z-axis cranks easier on this mill than my PM25 does. It really isn't bad at all. (pic of Bill with a surprised look on his face)

I need Santa to show up early this year: I need a DRO, power feed for the X axis (and possibly the Z), the two-speed belt conversion, the one-shot oiling system, and Heaven only knows what else I'll think up. Maybe I can talk CO into a line of credit...  :rofl:


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## coolidge (Oct 12, 2014)

Now those are my kind of pics, gut shots thanks Bill!


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Now those are my kind of pics, gut shots thanks Bill!



Welcome.  

It is interesting to note the amount of webbing I've seen on the underside of the table, carriage, and base. And pleasantly surprising.

And I think CO needs change their estimate of how much this puppy weighs:

Shipping weight was 1100lbs. Take away a generous 100lbs for crate and skid and that leaves 1000lbs. The stand isn't THAT heavy as I can pick it up with two hands and put it over my head (don't ask). There's just no way this thing weighs 'only' 770lbs.


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## maker of things (Oct 12, 2014)

My t slots seem to mostly have silver, brown and blue metal chips in them, like someone cleans only what they can reach with a shop vac.

Unless I really get going on the cnc conversion soon I will be addressing the "screws" that "hold" the handwheels on.  I think the left side X wheel has fallen off 3 times now (I usually crank from the right side). 
I was planning on a one shot oiler system too, but it really isn't that big a deal to shove the oil gun into the "gits" oilers once in awhile.  Other than the two on the table are too small, but that is an easy enough fix.


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

I have three chromed CI handwheels that are slightly larger than the plastic ones that came with the machine. Soon as I figure out what angles to machine for the couplings, I'll be doing that.

I finished cleaning and re-adjusting the table, saddle, and gibbs. I've never had a mill where each end of the table will crank completely up to the saddle with no more effort than that required to move it in the middle of it's travel. My pm gets tighter/harder towards each end of the table's travel. About 25" of travel near as I can see. Now I really want that X-axis power feed...


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## coolidge (Oct 12, 2014)

Bill what are you going to use to keep the table and machined surfaces protected from rust? I may give everything a coat of Boeshield since I have some on hand, especially under the vise. Eventually the flood coolant will protect everything.  http://www.amazon.com/Boeshield-Cor...UTF8&qid=1413160005&sr=8-1&keywords=boeshield


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Bill what are you going to use to keep the table and machined surfaces protected from rust? I may give everything a coat of Boeshield since I have some on hand, especially under the vise. Eventually the flood coolant will protect everything.  http://www.amazon.com/Boeshield-Cor...UTF8&qid=1413160005&sr=8-1&keywords=boeshield



Thanks, I saved that to my Amazon wish list just in case.

Here at 5000' we have a slightly drier climate that I suspect you do over there in the ever-wet NW.  :rofl:

 I've not had rust issues on any of my machines or tools.


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## chuckorlando (Oct 12, 2014)

I like Fluidfilm myself. Is that mill a 3 speed?


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

6 speed geared head w/VFD, so basically 0-3600 rpm.


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## chuckorlando (Oct 12, 2014)

Yea I neglected the h/l. Nice. 3600 aint to shabby. Get over 1500 and you can hear how fast things can go bad ahahaha


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## wrmiller (Oct 12, 2014)

With the belt drive it's over 5000. Boom!


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## darkzero (Oct 12, 2014)

Damn speed racers!


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## coolidge (Oct 13, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> Yea I neglected the h/l. Nice. 3600 aint to shabby. Get over 1500 and you can hear how fast things can go bad ahahaha



The sound of things going bad is GRRRRRAAAAHHHHHH PINK!


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## chuckorlando (Oct 13, 2014)

At them rpm's it's more of a dink da dink, da dink, dinkdinkdink BAM as it dont stop skidding across the shop till it hits a tool box ahahaha


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## tmarks11 (Oct 13, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Bill have you considered running grease instead of way oil? I'm only asking because I had read that Haas and other manufactures had switched to grease for ways on some machines vs way oil, less required and you don't pollute the coolant with a layer of way oil.


That is apples and oranges.

The Haas machines use linear guide rails, which are greased.  This machine has a dovetail slide way which should always be oiled.

Why oil?  Chips stick to grease way better, and you will end up damaging the bed sooner.

I would recommend you get some rubber sheet or some bellows to cover the ways up and protect them from chips sooner rather than later.  You can probably find what you need at mcmaster-carr.


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## wrmiller (Oct 15, 2014)

So last night I tried just taking some light (.02) cuts on a chunk of hot roll I had laying around. First was with one of my remnants of my cheap india mills. Terrible finish. So I replaced it with one of my USA made 3/8 carbide mills and BIG difference. I don't have a power feed on the X axis yet, so was cranking by hand and still got a decent finish. And very smooth feeding at the handle. Granted, 20 thou ain't much for this machine but I couldn't tell from the feedback through the handle when I was cutting or not. Smooth as butter. Wow. It's been awhile since I've had the luxury of working on a machine this stable. Gonna have to take some bigger bites just to see how the machine handles it.

And I ordered the 3M 3-axis dro from DroPros. I'm going with the Z axis on the head and will put a little digital scale on the quill. If I'd had the money I think the best solution would have been their 4-axis setup where the head and quill are cumulative. Just didn't have almost 3k laying around right now.

Slim chance, but it 'might' show up before the weekend...  )


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## chuckorlando (Oct 15, 2014)

I would be interested in what kinda DOC you can attain with a typical end mill.


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## tmarks11 (Oct 15, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> ...the mill comes with a decent grease on the ways and screws (there was little to no cleanup required on this thing). I wonder which is better though?


Grease is applied to keep the thing from rusting in transit.  Oil would not of the job, especially if it sat in a damp warehouse for a few months.

Get some orange citrus cleaner, strip the grease off, and coat everything with Mobil Vacta 2 (ISO 68) way oil.  Grease is not a good choice on your ways.  You can keep the leadscrews lubed with it if you like.


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## GA Gyro (Oct 15, 2014)

Ever see how quickly things corrode at the beach?  

AC units usually last, at best, 5 years at beach houses in the SE.  Reason:  Salt air.

Now think about your new lathe or mill spending 3-4 weeks in a container on top of a ship crossing the Pacific ocean... can you say SUPER corrosive environment?

IMO whatever is protecting the surfaces, needs to be removed... simply because that salt air has contaminated it.  

Better to start with fresh coatings on all non-painted surfaces.  

As to the grease vs oil discussion:  IMO the question is: Which one was it designed for?  That would, IMO, be the one to use...


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## maker of things (Oct 16, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> So last night I tried just taking some light (.02) cuts on a chunk of hot roll I had laying around.


Try it again but this time move the 2 right up next to the .  Does you clamp t nuts kit fit all the slots ok?


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Try it again but this time move the 2 right up next to the .  Does you clamp t nuts kit fit all the slots ok?



Yea the t-nuts are a perfect fit: No sloppiness but no tight spots either. All I did was take a file and remove the sharp corners on the nuts.

My PM25 with the same cutter was able to take .3 no problem. It complained a bit at .5, but managed to cut OK. I won't be surprised if El Hefe can plow through .75 with no problems. Probably should wait until I get my FogBuster for that cut though.  

Jon: Do you use coolant on your mill for the heavier cuts?


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## MarioM (Oct 16, 2014)

Looking good Bill,  I am glad you are making a lot of progress with your mill, mine is stopped.  Hope this weekend will continue with it. I like your stand, you can use that space.  To me it will be the same, will have to walk all the way to the older milling machine where all my tools and accessories are, guess some idea will come with the time.

Regarding the X and Y axis as you say they will be OK for what you do.  Will see how mine is when the time comes.


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## coolidge (Oct 16, 2014)

tmarks11 said:


> Grease is applied to keep the thing from rusting in transit.  Oil would not of the job, especially if it sat in a damp warehouse for a few months.
> 
> Get some orange citrus cleaner, strip the grease off, and coat everything with Mobil Vacta 2 (ISO 68) way oil.  Grease is not a good choice on your ways.  You can keep the leadscrews lubed with it if you like.



I 2nd the Mobil Vactra 68 recommendation, I use this on my lathe. Note everyone wants to sell it by the 5 gallon bucket but you can get it at McMaster-Carr by the gallon. I agree now that I think about it on these mills it would attract and grab every chip probably a real bad idea.


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## coolidge (Oct 16, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Yea the t-nuts are a perfect fit: No sloppiness but no tight spots either. All I did was take a file and remove the sharp corners on the nuts.
> 
> My PM25 with the same cutter was able to take .3 no problem. It complained a bit at .5, but managed to cut OK. I won't be surprised if El Hefe can plow through .75 with no problems. Probably should wait until I get my FogBuster for that cut though.
> 
> Jon: Do you use coolant on your mill for the heavier cuts?



When I ordered my Te-Co clamping kit...I noticed they had 2 different part numbers for the 1/2 inch stud/5/8 nut kits, one specific to Bridgeport knee mills and the other unspecified. Enco didn't even sell the second one so I ordered the one for the Bridgeports. I'm wonder if there is a difference...


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## coolidge (Oct 16, 2014)

Bill any thoughts on whether to use steel leveling pads vs rubber vibration dampening leveling pads?


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## maker of things (Oct 16, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Jon: Do you use coolant on your mill for the heavier cuts?


Bill, I  haven't.  I use only the finest 1/2" double ended 2 flute cutters that $2.47 will buy so far and usually keep the big honking chips silver, so I haven't bothered.  

Fair warning, any comparison between myself and a machinist is surely an insult to the machinist. (maybe I'll make that my sig)


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Bill any thoughts on whether to use steel leveling pads vs rubber vibration dampening leveling pads?



The stand from CO came with steel swivel leveling pads that are working fine so far. But then again, I haven't really gotten this thing shaking too much yet. 

The heaviest cut so far was with a 1" indexable 90 deg end mill at a doc of .3. You could fee the cut through the handwheels but it didn't seem to upset the mill at all. But those pesky chips flying everywhere were hot!


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2014)

coolidge said:


> When I ordered my Te-Co clamping kit...I noticed they had 2 different part numbers for the 1/2 inch stud/5/8 nut kits, one specific to Bridgeport knee mills and the other unspecified. Enco didn't even sell the second one so I ordered the one for the Bridgeports. I'm wonder if there is a difference...



I ordered the Bridgeport kit. FYI...


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I 2nd the Mobil Vactra 68 recommendation, I use this on my lathe. Note everyone wants to sell it by the 5 gallon bucket but you can get it at McMaster-Carr by the gallon. I agree now that I think about it on these mills it would attract and grab every chip probably a real bad idea.



I will be installing the one-shot oiling system soon and will run Vactra 2 in it. I will probably use a good quality grease on the screws though.


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## darkzero (Oct 16, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> 1" indexable 90 deg end mill



Hey Bill, which one do you have or could you post a pic of it? I just received mine a couple of days ago but I have not used it yet so not sure what to expect.


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## coolidge (Oct 16, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> I ordered the Bridgeport kit. FYI...



Thanks Bill that puts my mind at ease.


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## coolidge (Oct 16, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> I will be installing the one-shot oiling system soon and will run Vactra 2 in it. I will probably use a good quality grease on the screws though.



No way I'd go with grease on the screws Bill, the X axis screw is particularly exposed to chips don't ask me how they get up in there from underneath but they do. I added that plexiglass shield over Y on my old mill.


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2014)

MarioM said:


> Looking good Bill,  I am glad you are making a lot of progress with your mill, mine is stopped.  Hope this weekend will continue with it. I like your stand, you can use that space.  To me it will be the same, will have to walk all the way to the older milling machine where all my tools and accessories are, guess some idea will come with the time.
> 
> Regarding the X and Y axis as you say they will be OK for what you do.  Will see how mine is when the time comes.



A friend of mine who is handy with woodworking tools suggested we put a couple of dovetailed drawers in that open space in my stand with a shelf at the bottom for the heavier stuff.


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Hey Bill, which one do you have or could you post a pic of it? I just received mine a couple of days ago but I have not used it yet so not sure what to expect.



I honestly don't remember where I got it. Probably Griz. I bought it for the PM25 but @ 90 deg it's almost too much for that mill in steel at any doc. I bought it to be my poor man's face mill, but a 45 deg would have been better (if such a thing exists), and I will be getting one of those 45 deg face mills later from Glacern when they go on sale.

 It takes a bit to push this thing so I thought I'd give it a try on El Hefe to see how he handled it. I couldn't even hear a pitch change in this 3hp motor. Chewed it right up. I think the 45 will leave a better finish though.


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## dave2176 (Oct 16, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> A friend of mine who is handy with woodworking tools suggested we put a couple of dovetailed drawers in that open space in my stand with a shelf at the bottom for the heavier stuff.



I think you should make them through dovetails with contrasting woods so it looks really cool.
 On my Gr rf45 I've made .7 DOC by .4 wide using a 1/2 tin coated HSS cutter. You'll have no problem pushing it.


Dave


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## darkzero (Oct 16, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> I honestly don't remember where I got it. Probably Griz. I bought it for the PM25 but @ 90 deg it's almost too much for that mill in steel at any doc. I bought it to be my poor man's face mill, but a 45 deg would have been better (if such a thing exists), and I will be getting one of those 45 deg face mills later from Glacern when they go on sale.
> 
> It takes a bit to push this thing so I thought I'd give it a try on El Hefe to see how he handled it. I couldn't even hear a pitch change in this 3hp motor. Chewed it right up. I think the 45 will leave a better finish though.



Thanks Bill, although I do have 45deg FM I wanted an indexable EM to be able to mill up to a shoulder which the 45s can't do.I know 1" is overkill for my mill but I kept reading anything smaller than 3/4" for indexables suck. 5/8" & smaller I will stick to good old endmills of course & I don't plan on getting anything in between 5/8" & 1". I think I'm good on size range now, until I read about something else I don't have. :lmao:

How many flutes does yours have & what type of inserts? I went with APKT since they are cheap now. Hopefully it wasn't a waste of money.


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2014)

Mine is a two-flute, and I think a three would be better (again, if one exists). The inserts are those flat (no chip break) triangle types. 

I agree a EM would be nice to have for milling up to a shoulder. My only concern with EMs is the interrupted cut and what that will do to the inserts. I will keep looking for a better one. I'll check Glacern but I'll probably get sticker shock if they have one.


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## darkzero (Oct 16, 2014)

Yup, 3 flute is what I see recommended for 1". I looked at the Glacern EM90s & they are 2 flute also & use APKT inserts. Curtis from latheinserts.com offers the TMX ones with 3 flutes which is what I was going to buy but I ended up going with a German made one that is a 4 flute. I'm concerned that I should have gone with a 3 flute but the 4 flute with a pack of inserts was a very good price. But those guys who say to get a 3 flute are production CNC guys so there's no way I'm going to break mine. Korloy makes some nicely priced ones in kit form but they use 11mm inserts. I went with the 10mm inserts cause they're more readily available & cheaper.

BTW, Glacern's Halloween deals are up now but unfortunately no sales on the FM45s.


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## wrmiller (Oct 17, 2014)

Well, I received my DroPros 3-axis last night and was looking at how I'm going to mount this thing. Regardless of how I mount the x-axis scale (front or back) I'll be covering one of the ball oilers. I 'assume' that the one-shot oiling system will use different ports, so I thought I'd give CO a call to ask how they configure things when installing both the oiling system and a DRO.

Talked to Paul this morning and found out that the original info I was given about upgrading to the oiling system was not 'entirely accurate'. (I was told that all I had to do was drill and tap a few holes)  

Come to find out that I'll have to remove the table and mill in the galleys and drill the oil passages. They have to do this on both the manuals w/oiling system and the CNC machines. I don't know if my PM25 will hold the mill table of the 12Z (Paul estimates it somewhere between 120 and 130 lbs.). Anyone have a weight rating for the PM25 handy? If I can't do it that way, I'll have to do the old Dremel and 1/8" carbide round-nosed burr to lay out the oil galleys. He also recommended a couple of saw horses to hold the table.

So it looks like I should do the oiling system first, then the DRO install. Paul was saying they 'almost have the install video ready, but he didn't give me a timeframe for when it will be done. He is sending the rough video so I can get an idea of what I'm in for with this even though the kit isn't quite ready yet. It looks like it will be a bit before I'm fully operational.


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## coolidge (Oct 17, 2014)

Agree that you should install the one shot oiler before installing the DRO. What is your reason for installing a one shot oiler in the first place though? I ask only because I have run one of these mills for hours on end in CNC mode machining 3D molds without one.  I used a paint brush to apply a thin even coat of oil on Z, same brush for the two screws, hit the oil ports on X and Y and it was good to go. I was running flood coolant which had some lubricating properties of its own. As for milling/grinding the Z pattern in the ways to distribute the oil I'm wondering if oil is the only thing that's going to get trapped in that groove. :think1:

On the DRO here's a tip...I installed the DroPros EL400 with the magnetic scales on my lathe. If you don't have a nice machined flat surface don't be afraid to mount the scale on some thick aluminum then mount that to the mill, I'm thinking Z here. Yes these DRO kits have the leveling screws I call FAIL on them. The scales are too flexible so if the mounting surface is just slightly out of flatness it can distort the scale significantly, an uneven cast iron surface filled with bondo and thick paint, it can be maddening trying to get the scale installed flat and true. After hours of frustration I purchased a length of 3/4" thick x 3" wide aluminum bar to mount my long scale on, that made it super easy.


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## wrmiller (Oct 17, 2014)

I'm just being anal probably. I would like this thing to last longer than I do and if the oiling system is installed correctly I would like to believe that it would be better than squirting oil on the ways like I do now.  

Yea, I figured this out when installing the same DRO on my PM25. But fortunately all of the scales for that system came with backing plates. For the one I ordered for the 12Z, only the 350mm came with a backing plate (for Y axis). The other two: the 600mm and 700mm came without backing plates. After doing a quick visual, i.e. held the scales up to the machine, I quickly realized that I need to order some aluminum flats to use as backing plates or risk damaging the scales. Thanks for the heads up.


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## darkzero (Oct 18, 2014)

The scales on both my lathe & mill are mounted on backing plates that came with the scales. The backing plates on my lathe is what the chip guards bolt onto. The backing plates have a guide on them so I leveled the backing plates & the scales both right on aligning with the guide.

Some scale backing plates have set screws at the corners of them & also in the middle if really long. They allow you to adjust the plate for uneven surfaces. My lathe only needed minor shimming on the bed only but on my mill the leveling screws made the installation so much easier. If you make some & have pretty uneven surfaces, I would add leveling screws.


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## wrmiller (Oct 18, 2014)

Yup, those are the leveling plates that came with my DRO for the PM25, and I received one with the shorter scale this time but none with the longer scales. Same scales too.  

I also got the same covers are you show, but this time they came with these huge ugly things that if I can use them at all will have to be trimmed extensively. I may just throw them out.  :angry:


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## coolidge (Oct 18, 2014)

Lets talk displays, one thing I like about the EL400 kit is the display housing is thick powder coated cast aluminum vs plastic.


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## wrmiller (Oct 27, 2014)

Last week I talked to CO about the excessive (30+ thou) backlash in the Y-axis to ask them if there is a backlash adjustment for the Y axis like there is on the X. Paul says yes, and you get to it from the bottom of the machine. So we kinda had a Duh! moment when I mentioned that my chip tray prevents me from gaining access to this. (Paul is going to investigate putting in a access panel on future ones) My fix was a 4" hole saw...

I also was getting a bit tired of the head shifting when the Z-axis locks were engaged/disengaged. I think I remember Jon (MakerOfThings) saying something similar. Got thinking about this and came up with an idea: I took a piece of metal and lowered the head so that the front came to rest on the metal piece that was between it and the mill table. Then adjusted the gibb strip (almost 3 turns) tighter and presto, no more nodding of the head when the locks are loosened. Interestingly, the effort to crank the head up and down did not increase at all. 

Just FYI for those folks who own or are thinking of getting one...


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## Earlkonig (Oct 27, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Last week I talked to CO about the excessive (30+ thou) backlash in the Y-axis to ask them if there is a backlash adjustment for the Y axis like there is on the X. Paul says yes, and you get to it from the bottom of the machine. So we kinda had a Duh! moment when I mentioned that my chip tray prevents me from gaining access to this. (Paul is going to investigate putting in a access panel on future ones) My fix was a 4" hole saw...
> 
> I also was getting a bit tired of the head shifting when the Z-axis locks were engaged/disengaged. I think I remember Jon (MakerOfThings) saying something similar. Got thinking about this and came up with an idea: I took a piece of metal and lowered the head so that the front came to rest on the metal piece that was between it and the mill table. Then adjusted the gibb strip (almost 3 turns) tighter and presto, no more nodding of the head when the locks are loosened. Interestingly, the effort to crank the head up and down did not increase at all.
> 
> Just FYI for those folks who own or are thinking of getting one...



So I have a question out of ignorance.  Is this a 12z issue or a typical rf45 issue?  Just curious.  Thanks!


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## wheeler34man (Oct 27, 2014)

Hi Bill. I definitely would put drawers in the open space under your mill. You probably cant see it but I made a box of sorts with a single drawer. It holds all my endmills and cutters. I also have a tool box next to it. I definitely know what you mean about going back and forth. I love my tool drawer. Its handy. I could have gotten fancy with it as I am a wood worker also but I figured it would get oiled and ruined so I just used plywood and painted it except for the inside. So just my 2 cents! Hope all is well. 




wrmiller19 said:


> A friend of mine who is handy with woodworking tools suggested we put a couple of dovetailed drawers in that open space in my stand with a shelf at the bottom for the heavier stuff.


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## wrmiller (Oct 27, 2014)

Earlkonig said:


> So I have a question out of ignorance.  Is this a 12z issue or a typical rf45 issue?  Just curious.  Thanks!



Cannot speak specifically to the question of it being a rf45 issue, other than the 12Z is of a similar design, and having a 300 lb. non-counterbalanced head hanging solely from a dovetail might be a problem on any machine of this design.  




wheeler34man said:


> Hi Bill. I definitely would put drawers in the open space under your mill. You probably cant see it but I made a box of sorts with a single drawer. It holds all my endmills and cutters. I also have a tool box next to it. I definitely know what you mean about going back and forth. I love my tool drawer. Its handy. I could have gotten fancy with it as I am a wood worker also but I figured it would get oiled and ruined so I just used plywood and painted it except for the inside. So just my 2 cents! Hope all is well.



Hey! How are you? Haven't seen any new pics of your machine lately. Get it set up OK? Yes I could vaguely make out that you had a drawer or door on your stand. I've just gotten spoiled from having a tool box lower right under my machine to keep all my Stuff in.

A friend is working on a insert with a couple drawers and a lower shelf for me. But now that I've cut a hole in the middle of my chip tray I'm going to have to make a little wire frame gizmo that I can slide a aluminum pie pan into to catch the chips and oil.


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## wrmiller (Nov 1, 2014)

Ok, Ok...so I can't leave well enough alone. 

But after coolidge started posting issues with his mill I was like "why not take a peek?"

The only thing of major note that I found had to do with the ball oilers. I've always been concerned about not being able to get much oil into the machine via these things and now I know why: The hole that the oiler feeds on the table for example, just terminates as a straight hole. There are no galleys for the oil to follow to get to more of the bearing surface. I will be adding some minor galley lines with a carbide burr so that oil is better distributed.

It is interesting to note that everything fits very well. The ways are Very Nicely ground and the gibbs are true and flat and fit well. I did find one minor nick/high spot on one of Y-axis ways. Tried giving it a light touch with a file and it left a bright mark on my file (!?). Don't remember reading anything about hardened ways and this isn't a cheap file. I had to stone it down. One other thing was the Y-axis nut retaining bolt was loose when I took the machine apart and the nut was cocking a bit when feeding the table towards the column. I thought I was feeling a difference. Some of the threads inside the nut look thinner in spots than others, so I'll ask Paul to send me a replacement (he has them in stock, thankfully).

Other than that, I'm just happily making a mess at the moment.  )


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## maker of things (Nov 2, 2014)

Bill I am looking forward to seeing what you do with the oiling.  It seems that using the stock gits locations would be a pain for one shot system. The hoses on the x would have to be able to move a really long distance and not get snagged if I am thinking about it right.   I had originally planned to do one shot, but have thought the opposite lately. I was planning on poking holes in the saddle and milling the oil grooves in the saddle too.  

I based my plans on what Bob Warfield did on his old skool 12z http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMilllOneShot.htm.


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## wrmiller (Nov 2, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Bill I am looking forward to seeing what you do with the oiling.  It seems that using the stock gits locations would be a pain for one shot system. The hoses on the x would have to be able to move a really long distance and not get snagged if I am thinking about it right.   I had originally planned to do one shot, but have thought the opposite lately. I was planning on poking holes in the saddle and milling the oil grooves in the saddle too.
> 
> I based my plans on what Bob Warfield did on his old skool 12z http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMilllOneShot.htm.



I will be getting an oiling system from CO soon I hope, but am waiting for them to finish their installation DVD as Paul has asked that I do a critique of the video. I will of course be documenting the install process here as well. In my conversations with Paul I get the impression that the original oilers will not be replaced with their system. Instead, it will install in the saddle and the head interface piece, similar to that video you posted a link to. When I told Paul that I was mounting the X-axis scale on the front of the table he had to think about if that would interfere with the oiling system for the X-axis where it mounts to the front of the saddle, but we figured out that they can co-exist. The scale however, will 'just' fit above the front oiler on the table I think. It will be close. The same would happen if I mounted the scale on the back of the table as well.

I hopefully will be getting the system soon as Paul was telling me one of his people was having difficulty getting the whole thing on a DVD (big video...) but I don't know where in that process they are at the moment. But while I have everything apart, I will be measuring for some way wipers for the saddle (can't decide if I want to machine them out of brass or aluminum). That rear way cover that comes on the machine is pretty much useless IMO as when I took this apart I had chips all over the Y-axis ways. I'm really starting to like the idea of keeping the PM25 as a second machine, otherwise how would I make parts for El Hefe?  )

But for the stock oiling system, I am just thinking I could put some small galleys around the ball oilers as a backup system for me. In their current configuration, very little oil gets to the ways as there is nowhere for the oil to go other than to just sit in that little hole. I made a suggestion to Paul that for non-hobby/commercial customers he might suggest doing what I am going to do if they do not intend to go with the one-shot system.


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## chuckorlando (Nov 2, 2014)

If you got room and dont need the money, I would keep the 25. If it's nothing else it's a drill press that would cost a fortune to buy. Maybe a baby surface grinder conversion, all kinda stuff. I have  a hard time letting go of anything with dove tails, gibs, and mic handles. Thats the hardest part to make good on most machine tools


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## wrmiller (Nov 2, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> If you got room and dont need the money, I would keep the 25. If it's nothing else it's a drill press that would cost a fortune to buy. Maybe a baby surface grinder conversion, all kinda stuff. I have  a hard time letting go of anything with dove tails, gibs, and mic handles. Thats the hardest part to make good on most machine tools



Hmmm...now I didn't think of making a grinder attachment for the head. Let's see...right angle grinder + attachment jig, or I could go all in and make a powered horizontal spindle for a regular grinding wheel. Thanks dude, I SO need another project.  

I think of the PM25 as way more than a drill press. It is a very accurate machine, or maybe I'm just more accurate with it and it's 3-axis DRO. :whistle:

It's limitations are more size related, hence the arrival of it's big(er) brother. And you and I are of a similar mindset when it comes to getting rid of anything that has dove tails: I still have the original column for the 25 that Matt replaced and will absolutely find a use for it. )


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## coolidge (Nov 2, 2014)

Just mount the PM25 on the 12z sideways for horizontal milling. :whistle:


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## chuckorlando (Nov 2, 2014)

I always use drill press as an example when folks talk about wore out mills being worthless. Seems to me even a sloppy mill that works has hundreds in value just in a drill press with xy travel.

Either way you would likely get less money for that 25 then it would cost you to build all that good stuff you got.


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## wrmiller (Nov 2, 2014)

My PM25 isn't going anywhere. It's a good accurate little mill. )


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## wrmiller (Nov 6, 2014)

Ok, the new Y-axis nut is on the way, as is the 2-disk installation video for the one-shot oiling system. They won't be here until Monday though. Oiling System kit should have left today or tomorrow.

And I've got a little extra bonus coming in my check next week, so I will be ordering the X-axis power feed and the belt-drive conversion. Paul says it could be a little wait on the belt drive though, but I have more than enough to do on this mill to keep me busy for a while. Once the belt-drive conversion is installed I'm all set on this machine. For now.


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## chuckorlando (Nov 7, 2014)

Exciting times for sure at your house. If I sold machine tools and hop up parts for them, I think I would have to keep a cnc mill and lathe at the shop with all the hop ups on file. Just load the stock and hit play. Let it run while I inspected the next machine.


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## jeff_g1137 (Nov 7, 2014)

Hi
Nice mill, but will be a great mill.
I emailed co to see if they would export to the UK, but no reply ???
Will get one next year, it is on my list lol


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## wrmiller (Nov 7, 2014)

Hey Jeff,

It took Paul a few days to reply to my last email, as they have a lot going on right now but he has so far responded to my emails. Write to Paul at Charter Oak and tell him Bill sent you. I would suggest a call would be better but don't know if you can do that given the time difference.


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## jeff_g1137 (Nov 7, 2014)

Hi Bill
Thanks Bill will do, I think i will ring him when i am ready to get one, next year, 
but will give him time to get one in as they are not allways in stock.
as any one any clue of the S&H to the UK. ???

jeff


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## wrmiller (Nov 15, 2014)

Ok, received the oiling system kit today and thought I'd start prepping the saddle for the install.

The kit. Pretty basic. Paul is working on putting together an install video. I reviewed an early test take, but it needs finishing.




After drilling the oil pathways from where the fittings will thread into the saddle to the ways, it is time to lay down the oil galleys. The video shows a long galley parallel to the axis. I decided to add perpendicular galleys that will allow oil to better work it's way between the sliding surfaces. I will edge break along the sides of the galleys where I want oil forced onto the ways.




This is what the X-axis ways look like after I got done.




Blue certainly earned his keep today. Who says a PM25 is only good for plastic and aluminum?  




Tomorrow I will have to slot the gibb strips (not sure how to mill a groove in a tapered surface) and the opposing dovetails with a slotting saw. Then all that will be left for the saddle will be drill and threading the saddle for the 1/8" NTP fittings. It was a good day.


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## maker of things (Nov 17, 2014)

Awesome Bill.  That is pretty much how I planned to mill oil grooves in my saddle (on the G0704) so now you have proved it will work for me, thanks.  I did actually order the material to make my ball nut mounts now so when they are done I will dissemble my mill and add oil grooves at the same time.  I ordered (2) 3/16 ball nose carbide cutters to cut the grooves, what did you end up using and how deep? 

Did you see Will's ring light mod to his PM45 http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/27279-Spindle-Light-For-PM45M?p=240529#post240529 ? We should be able to do pretty much the same thing.


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## wrmiller (Nov 17, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Awesome Bill.  That is pretty much how I planned to mill oil grooves in my saddle (on the G0704) so now you have proved it will work for me, thanks.  I did actually order the material to make my ball nut mounts now so when they are done I will dissemble my mill and add oil grooves at the same time.  I ordered (2) 3/16 ball nose carbide cutters to cut the grooves, what did you end up using and how deep?
> 
> I used what was recommended in the video, a 1/8" carbide ball. There was no mention of depth so I just WAG'd it and picked 50 thou. That's a bit deep, maybe should have gone 30, but hey it will hold a bunch of oil.
> 
> ...



Yes, I've seen that. May be something I do for El Hefe.


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## wrmiller (Nov 22, 2014)

Finished setup on the saddle and got it and the table back on the mill.







Need to do the head next, mount the oil reservoir, manifold, and run the lines. I don't have the drawings for the head install, so waiting on CO to get me that. Just for grins I put my oil can up to the back fittings for each side and gave it a couple squeezes. Got oil going everywhere.

Now that the table is back on, I can finish the DRO and power feed install. More stuff to do... )


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## coolidge (Nov 22, 2014)

Bill I see your table scored 10 out of 10 by three judges!


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## wrmiller (Nov 22, 2014)

Yea...not sure what that is.


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## wrmiller (Nov 22, 2014)

And got the power feed on. Bit of an IQ test, as the directions were basically an iso drawing. Wasn't too hard though.


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## maker of things (Nov 23, 2014)

Looking good Bill.  You should be operational soon at your current pace.

Given any thought to changing out the way locks yet?  If you need broken ones to work from, I have 2 now.  You might be surprised how far those things can fly when they snap off, this last one I think I got almost 8 feet!  

You had discussed some protection for the y way, were you thinking a flexible cover or the squeegee type?


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## zmotorsports (Nov 23, 2014)

Looks like you are making good progress Bill.  You'll be making chips soon by the looks of it.


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## wrmiller (Nov 23, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Looking good Bill.  You should be operational soon at your current pace.
> 
> Given any thought to changing out the way locks yet?  If you need broken ones to work from, I have 2 now.  You might be surprised how far those things can fly when they snap off, this last one I think I got almost 8 feet!
> 
> You had discussed some protection for the y way, were you thinking a flexible cover or the squeegee type?



What are you using for replacement locks for the X axis? I have mine positioned at the 2 o'clock position loose then twist clockwise to clamp the table. When unlocked it keeps them up and out of the way of the bed. Hopefully.

You know what? I screwed up. Here I had the saddle sitting on my bench for a week and completely forgot about a wiper for the back of the saddle/Y-axis interface. Sure would have been easier than now with the thing back together.  

I was thinking of a wiper: basically a plastic or metal contrivance to hold pieces of felt against the ways to brush off the chips yet let oil through. Opinion? Got a better way?


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## maker of things (Nov 23, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> What are you using for replacement locks for the X axis? I have mine positioned at the 2 o'clock position loose then twist clockwise to clamp the table. When unlocked it keeps them up and out of the way of the bed. Hopefully.


I did the same thing until the 2 times when I didn't   I was thinking of making something like the things on the y that can flop instead of snap, or a big thumb screw that would clear the y dovetail.



wrmiller19 said:


> You know what? I screwed up. Here I had the saddle sitting on my bench for a week and completely forgot about a wiper for the back of the saddle/Y-axis interface. Sure would have been easier than now with the thing back together.
> 
> I was thinking of a wiper: basically a plastic or metal contrivance to hold pieces of felt against the ways to brush off the chips yet let oil through. Opinion? Got a better way?



No, that's kind of what I was thinking too.  Probably lasercut some plates and the wiper material.  Silicone rubber cuts ok felt would probably cut good too.  I'll have to try a few things soon.


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## wrmiller (Nov 23, 2014)

Dude, if you have laser cut capability, I will gladly pay you for the time and material to make some extra ones.  )


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## brav65 (Nov 23, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Awesome Bill.  That is pretty much how I planned to mill oil grooves in my saddle (on the G0704) so now you have proved it will work for me, thanks.  I did actually order the material to make my ball nut mounts now so when they are done I will dissemble my mill and add oil grooves at the same time.  I ordered (2) 3/16 ball nose carbide cutters to cut the grooves, what did you end up using and how deep?
> 
> Did you see Will's ring light mod to his PM45 http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/27279-Spindle-Light-For-PM45M?p=240529#post240529 ? We should be able to do pretty much the same thing.




Bill i I am just finishing up the light mod mentioned above.  I am also adding two more strips of LED lightsto tomeach side if the head.  I have 3 more brackets to make, wiring was done yesterday. I will post pictures when complete.

Nice co work on the auto oiler.  I am just about ready to start making some chips with accuracy!


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## wrmiller (Nov 23, 2014)

X axis scale mounted and leveled. Reader mount and it's done. But the game is on. Time to go relax in front of the fireplace and big screen.  




I think it's starting to snow again.


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## wrmiller (Nov 25, 2014)

Took today and the rest of the week off from work. So...

Today I managed to get the Z-axis scale up on the column. Thanks to coolidge for the suggestion to make a back plate for the scale. Worked perfectly.

Had to put Blue to work again hogging out some aluminum pieces for the read head mount.




Here it is mounted and ready to go.




I'm getting there, slowly but surely. Don't want to get into a rush and screw something up now.


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## coolidge (Nov 25, 2014)

Nice job Bill, is that the magnetic scales you went with?


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## wrmiller (Nov 25, 2014)

Nope, glass. I won't be using flood coolant so not worried about contamination. Cheaper too.  

Was just looking at the DROPro site and checking out their 2-axis lathe setups. I will be going with a 5 micron scale on Z and a one micron scale on X. That way I can set it up for diameter readout on X and still get decent resolution.


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## coolidge (Nov 25, 2014)

I'm using my lathe DRO tonight turning steel fixtures for the welding table, you will love the DRO on the lathe.


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## wrmiller (Nov 26, 2014)

I've not used a DRO on a lathe yet. I do know that having one on the mill makes things easier/faster, so looking for the same benefits on the turning thingie.  

Gotta put up a huge curtain rod for the Boss this morning, then I'll get back to the mill.

Coolidge: Do you know if you have to remove the head for the belt drive conversion? I'm trying to decide when exactly to do the head oiling system mod and if I can kill two birds with one stone. I'm not taking this monster off twice.


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## coolidge (Nov 26, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> I've not used a DRO on a lathe yet. I do know that having one on the mill makes things easier/faster, so looking for the same benefits on the turning thingie.
> 
> Gotta put up a huge curtain rod for the Boss this morning, then I'll get back to the mill.
> 
> Coolidge: Do you know if you have to remove the head for the belt drive conversion? I'm trying to decide when exactly to do the head oiling system mod and if I can kill two birds with one stone. I'm not taking this monster off twice.



I turned some fixture pins last night with a critical OD dimension, it had to fit snug and I held that dimension to within 4 tenths with the DRO confirmed by my Mitutoyo mic. Fit was perfect, I can't image how hit or miss that job would have been without a DRO. Once I set X I just churned them out one after another.

Bill I would say technically no you don't have to remove the head so long as you can lower it enough so that its easy to work on. Mechanically there is no reason to remove it.


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## wrmiller (Nov 26, 2014)

Well the scales are mounted and the reader brackets fabricated. I was running out of material on the Y axis, so it is a bit of a kludge but it is solid. I'll forget what it looks like in a couple of days...  :lmao:





Friday I will fasten down the cover for the Y axis. This axis absolutely needs a cover as it gets buried in chips and oil on Blue. The others are out of the direct line of fire. Then I will tackle the display mount and run the cables.

Tomorrow is for stuffing the bird, then me (in that order) then lapsing into a turkey coma on the couch in front of the football game. Looking forward to it.  )

Have a good holiday tomorrow everyone!


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## GA Gyro (Nov 26, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Well the scales are mounted and the reader brackets fabricated. I was running out of material on the Y axis, so it is a bit of a kludge but it is solid. I'll forget what it looks like in a couple of days...  :lmao:
> 
> View attachment 88467
> View attachment 88468
> ...



SIL (sister in law) is hosting THXgiving this year... all I have to do is bring a couple of side dishes... which will take about 45 min in the morning.

The part about lapsing into a turkey (triptophane) coma sounds good about now... been getting folks heat systems ready for the winter.  
Hopefully I will not have any calls over the weekend, need to get the mill stand made.

A wonderful Turkey Day holiday to all the folks at Hobby Machinist forum...
We have a LOT to be thankful for!

GA


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2014)

Hey Bill, just a heads up in case you didn't see already & was still interested....


From another thread:



darkzero said:


> FYI, Glacern's BF sale is going on right now  until 11/30. All the shell face mills are on sale but not the shell  arbors. And only the integral 3" FM45 is on sale for $139. They used  have the 2" & 2.5" integtrals on sale for this price too, not sure  why they decided not to put them on sale this year.


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## wrmiller (Nov 28, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Hey Bill, just a heads up in case you didn't see already & was still interested....
> 
> 
> From another thread:



Yea, saw that. Thought I was mis-reading it at first, then figured that the 2.5" might be more popular and they don't NEED to put it on sale.  

But all for naught at the moment. In my looking for a big(er) lathe thread I posted that I kinda blew this (and the next several) month's play money by telling Matt I'd take one of his Taiwan specials.


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## wrmiller (Nov 29, 2014)

No pics today, my little shop is a wreck as I have begun moving machines around.

 I did manage to finish the DRO install and move El Hefe to his new home which is just a few feet to the left and forward a bit. Being on wheels is a huge advantage when you need to move your machines around, but it is not as simple as it sounds. I think I said it before, but trying to move this guy is like dancing with a buffalo i.e., he pretty much moves where HE wants to go, not where you want him to. But, I finally managed to push/pull/swear at him to get him into final position. I moved him to make room to bring Blue back over to that side of the garage so I have both mills sitting next to each other. I will do the same with the lathes when the new one shows up. When the 1340 gets here, the Jeep is going outside. There just won't be enough room otherwise. What the heck, it's a lease...  

On the CO I also moved the remote for the VFD to the bar I mounted the DRO display on which is attached to the back of the column. I just don't like electronics on the head. It's not smart to mount circuit boards onto a vigorously vibrating piece of iron and expect it to survive very long. I suspect this is the reason my rpm display flaked out on the PM25.

If I get things somewhat back together tomorrow I will post a couple of pics of the DRO install and VFD move.


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## maker of things (Nov 30, 2014)

Try one of these.  I can slide my 12z and 1440 with little effort (no wheels).  Home improvement stores usually have them by the shovels.  Tru Temper calls it a pinch point crow bar.


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## GA Gyro (Nov 30, 2014)

maker of things said:


> Try one of these.  I can slide my 12z and 1440 with little effort (no wheels).  Home improvement stores usually have them by the shovels.  Tru Temper calls it a pinch point crow bar.



AS I remember.... that is also called a RR prybar... it is 5-6 ft long and hefty!

And yes, they will pry/move a surprising amount of weight... I have one.


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## brav65 (Nov 30, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> No pics today, my little shop is a wreck as I have begun moving machines around.
> 
> I did manage to finish the DRO install and move El Hefe to his new home which is just a few feet to the left and forward a bit. Being on wheels is a huge advantage when you need to move your machines around, but it is not as simple as it sounds. I think I said it before, but trying to move this guy is like dancing with a buffalo i.e., he pretty much moves where HE wants to go, not where you want him to. But, I finally managed to push/pull/swear at him to get him into final position. I moved him to make room to bring Blue back over to that side of the garage so I have both mills sitting next to each other. I will do the same with the lathes when the new one shows up. When the 1340 gets here, the Jeep is going outside. There just won't be enough room otherwise. What the heck, it's a lease...
> 
> ...



Hey Bill things are looking great with the new mill. You mentioned above that your RPM display went bad.  Mine stopped working on Thursday.  I have checked all the connections on the control board, with no change.  Matt suggests I check the sensor on the spindle.  I started to take the pulley off last night, but hit a road block.  I took out the set screw holding the pulley, but it is still stuck on the shaft.  It looks to be pressed on, I just don't want to damage anything.  I will need to get a pulley puller.  What was wrong with your display?  Mine just reads zero, but lights up when I turn on the machine.


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## wrmiller (Nov 30, 2014)

brav65 said:


> Hey Bill things are looking great with the new mill. You mentioned above that your RPM display went bad.  Mine stopped working on Thursday.  I have checked all the connections on the control board, with no change.  Matt suggests I check the sensor on the spindle.  I started to take the pulley off last night, but hit a road block.  I took out the set screw holding the pulley, but it is still stuck on the shaft.  It looks to be pressed on, I just don't want to damage anything.  I will need to get a pulley puller.  What was wrong with your display?  Mine just reads zero, but lights up when I turn on the machine.



Mine is completely wacko. Sometimes it is blank, sometimes it shows all of the LED elements, sometimes it shows zeros, sometimes it shows all eights... (you get the picture). And it is not the sensor on mine. 

As things settle down I will pull the display board out of the box and look real good at it under my magnifier. Hopefully that will uncover the problem. Until then, the motor runs fine. I just go by pitch now and the beat frequency off the spinning endmill (trick my old mentor taught me).


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## wrmiller (Nov 30, 2014)

Ok, so I got El Hefe and Blue back up and running after moving the machines around. Had to move/relocate the DRO display on Blue to the right side as there wasn't room on the left where it used to be. Modified the mount and re-routed the cables. No biggie.

Here's a picture of the relocated remote for the Danfoss. Now it's off the head/out of my way, and it is subjected to less vibration out there. I really only need to use it to push the 'hand on' button (manual mode) and to set or adjust the frequency. It appears that the VFD is already programmed with a 3 sec startup profile so I just use the fwd/off/rev switch to start/stop the spindle without worrying about being too hard on the motor on startups.





So this is now where the milling stations will reside, probably until I move. I am starting to like the arrangement already, even though it looks kinda like a kludge. I don't have to walk as far from machine to machine, and the tooling in Blue's tool box is closer now. Organizing these this way will allow me to put the 1340GT right next to the little SB.


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## coolidge (Nov 30, 2014)

Looking good Bill I wish I had your ceiling height.


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## wrmiller (Nov 30, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Looking good Bill I wish I had your ceiling height.



Yea, it's somewhere between 9 and 10 feet to the ceiling. And the front bedrooms are above me, so it keeps a little bit more heat in there. Once I move the Jeep out I will have 15' wide by 20' deep of room to play with/expand into. Should be plenty for the next 2-3 years.


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## brav65 (Nov 30, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Mine is completely wacko. Sometimes it is blank, sometimes it shows all of the LED elements, sometimes it shows zeros, sometimes it shows all eights... (you get the picture). And it is not the sensor on mine.
> 
> As things settle down I will pull the display board out of the box and look real good at it under my magnifier. Hopefully that will uncover the problem. Until then, the motor runs fine. I just go by pitch now and the beat frequency off the spinning endmill (trick my old mentor taught me).




Thanks Bill everything looks great on the new mill.  Thanks for all the pictures


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## wrmiller (Dec 3, 2014)

Well, the one-shot is installed and functional to the saddle. I'm taking a break from taking this thing apart to do things to it so removing the head and milling the head mount for grooves will have to wait for a bit. Hand oiling the column/head is easy, and it doesn't move much compared to the X and Y axis.

It ain't pretty, but it's functional. I was running out of room because of the Z-axis scale. It is nothing like the factory install, but they don't mount Z-axis scales on the column. I may have to come up with a different scheme for the manifold location and the running of the lines. Maybe I can locate a source of the hard and flex lines that are used on the big boys and come up with something that looks a bit better. It is nice feeling all that oil squishing through the ways though.


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## wrmiller (Dec 6, 2014)

Today I figured that I'd rather use the mill than work on it. 

Just to make some chips I thought I'd start sizing some 7075 for a pair of soft jaws. Gives me an opportunity to play with the mill a bit and get used to how it behaves/cuts.





Never personally owned a machine that I could actually use a 3/4" endmill. I'll have to start looking at larger (above 3/8") cutters on Ebay as I don't have but a couple.


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## coolidge (Dec 6, 2014)

Looking good Bill, that's a respectable pile of chips. I also spy a replacement chrome hand wheel handle. What's up with your way covers though?


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## wrmiller (Dec 6, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Looking good Bill, that's a respectable pile of chips. I also spy a replacement chrome hand wheel handle. What's up with your way covers though?



I have two CI handwheels that I will be fitting to the X and Y screw ends to get rid of these plastic wheels. I hate plastic wheels. For now, I just borrowed the handles so I can grab something other than plastic.  

If you are referring to my Z axis cover, it is currently hanging loose until I can figure out how to remount it, or replace it with something different. As it came from the factory, it doesn't permit the head to get down all the way to the table or even my vise without compressing the cover and bending the bottom bracket all to heck. I don't like the reduced rigidity of extending the quill any more than I have too, and now that I have the DRO Z-axis scale on the head instead of the quill like the factory does it I no longer need use the quill other than for zeroing Z, drilling holes, or the infrequent plunge cut.

When I install the belt drive conversion I will be eliminating that drill press type rod and clamp on the front of the head/quill (at least the clamp currently does catch the slowly leaking oil from around the gear shift levers) and replace it with a much smaller aluminum ring that will attach to a digital scale for more accurate quill movements when I do need to use it.

It was fun making that pile of chips. )


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## wrmiller (Dec 19, 2014)

Soft jaws! Mild steel on the vise, with another pair of 6061 for when I need really soft jaws. 

Having 6" jaws in a 5" vise works for me quite well. I don't have to deal with a overly large and heavy vise by having the 5 instead of the 6 but derive some of the benefits of the 6 by having the wider jaws. Best of both worlds to me. I'll put .1" grooves in them tomorrow.




EDIT: Oh, and I found out today my belt drive conversion is being made right now. :thumbzup3:


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## gunrunnerx (Dec 20, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> EDIT: Oh, and I found out today my belt drive conversion is being made right now. :thumbzup3:



Thats awesome.  Is David doing it for you?  He does beautiful work.  The craftsmanship is 2nd to none.


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## wrmiller (Dec 20, 2014)

gunrunnerx said:


> Thats awesome.  Is David doing it for you?  He does beautiful work.  The craftsmanship is 2nd to none.



Yes, getting the kit from David. He told me yesterday that he is working on two kits and that one of them is mine. Glad to hear about his workmanship. Looking forward to hearing that it's done.  )


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## gunrunnerx (Dec 20, 2014)

He doesn't live to far away from me, and I bought mine from him as well.

Ill see if I can slip out to the garage later and snap a few pictures of it.


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## wrmiller (Dec 20, 2014)

And then we have chrome wheels! Well, more like chrome handwheels but hey, bling is bling. 




Did I mention yet again how I hate CI? What a mess...




They don't really add to the functionality of the mill other than they are a slightly larger diameter than the stock ones, but they sure feel better to my hands. Guess that's all that really matters.


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## coolidge (Dec 20, 2014)

Its possible darkzero is no longer the king of clean, very nice Bill love the upgrade! Agree with you on CI and I always seem to be tasting it for hours afterwards.


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## coolidge (Dec 20, 2014)

Speaking of the belt drive kit, have you given any thought to controls you would mount on the front of the head like a e-stop button or remote pot for the VFD, FVD on/off that sort of thing? I may go browse Grainger this evening to see what they have.


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## wrmiller (Dec 20, 2014)

Yes, I have been thinking about some of this particularly the remote speed/frequency pot. I've found the three terminals for the 1k pot in the manual and the switch that activates that port. I would like to mount this on/next to the FWD/REV switch on the left side of the head.

It's only 10v through a 1k pot, but I'm wondering if a precision wire-wound might give a little better control i.e., more linear resistance change over it's physical range. The one on the remote is rather temperamental and I am wanting better resolution and control when the belt drives goes on and we are using more of the frequency range of the VFD.


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## coolidge (Dec 20, 2014)

Bill I'm not sure I'd want a wire wound pot that close to that big 3 phase motor. A 1k pot rated that low will be super easy to source, in fact I have some stainless PEC 1k pots in my amp parts bin that would work fine. They are not IP rated, they would need to be well shielded from oil or coolant. I did a quick search on Grainger, not happening they are $200 - $280 for an industrial pot. My PEC pots which are stainless cost like $10. I will search for some IP rated pots that don't cost an arm and a leg. Either way I can have Front Panel Express machine the dial indicator scale on the panel, I'll throw a larger knob on the pot and it will look quite industrial. 

*Question:* Have you tested the Danfoss pot to see if OFF is 1000 ohms or OFF is 0 ohms (or some low value)? Some pots don't actually reduce all the way to 0 ohms. Maybe I'll get my electronics gear out and test mine. They could be keying off voltage vs ohms I suppose.

I may rig up one of my PEC pots to test, they have 270 degrees of rotation. Hmmm that's only 90 degrees more than the stock pot but may be okay. Otherwise a multi-turn pot may be needed or a second fine adjust pot. Hmmm a 10 speed switch with a fine adjustment pot between speeds. A lathe like low speed Jog button. A Tap button at a particular speed. A spindle e-stop. I could have all kinds of fun with this mod! :rofl:

Edit: McMaster has some far more economical pots than Grainger.


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## darkzero (Dec 20, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Its possible darkzero is no longer the king of clean, very nice Bill love the upgrade! Agree with you on CI and I always seem to be tasting it for hours afterwards.



Wait what!?? NOW WAY! You guys are cheating, I have white & you guys have black!

:*****slap2: :talktogod: :fingerwag: :nervous: :roflmao:


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## wrmiller (Dec 20, 2014)

:roflmao:


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## coolidge (Dec 21, 2014)

Bill if you get a chance one day can you post a close up pic of your replacement right hand mill handle? I'm wondering how you integrated with that three jaw like dial. I suppose you could chuck that in a lathe or mill and machine that off. I'm just curious no hurry.


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## wrmiller (Dec 21, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Bill if you get a chance one day can you post a close up pic of your replacement right hand mill handle? I'm wondering how you integrated with that three jaw like dial. I suppose you could chuck that in a lathe or mill and machine that off. I'm just curious no hurry.



I WAS going to mill the end of the replacement handle to fit that three-jaw like dial (thanks, didn't know how to describe that). Then decided that was probably overkill and more work than I wanted to just replace the handles. Then after talking to Paul and realizing that I no longer need the dials after installing the DRO I thought about taking the whole shebang off and making some spacers to replace the dials.

But then I decided that I don't want to replace and/or modify the original setup 'just in case' I might someday need it. So...after taking one of the handles off and just looking at the end of the shaft (about 3/4" sticking out) I decided to bore the handles for a snug, slop free fit, drill and tap a 10-32 hole perpendicular to the bore, file a flat on the side of the leadscrew shaft for the setscrew interface and simply slide this puppy on there.

It slides right up to the dial sleeve and the setscrew cinching down on the flat will prevent the handle from turning on the shaft. The handle is not an interference fit but it is snug with no tilt/slop once it's on. Even without the setscrew.




As you can see, there is plenty of engagement between the shaft and handwheel.




Not the most elegant solution, but it is simple yet functional and doesn't destroy/modify the original design in case I ever need to use the original handwheels again. One benefit of doing it this way is that it gets the Y-axis handle a little further away from the edge of the chip tray and the end of the vise. )


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## tmarks11 (Dec 21, 2014)

Nice to get rid of those plastic handwheels.  I wish machinery manufacturers would charge an extra $100 and put classy hand wheels on these things.  My Grizzly G0709G lathe has aluminum hand wheels that I really don't like the shape, feel, or look of.  CI hand wheels are in my future.


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## wrmiller (Dec 21, 2014)

But then there are people who would bitc$ and moan about that extra $100 cost. Can't please everyone with only one configuration.

It WOULD be nice for those of use who appreciate things like this for it to be an optional upgrade though. )


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## gunrunnerx (Dec 22, 2014)

Here are those pics of the belt drive as promised.   Sorry for the delay.  Been hurting pretty bad today.


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## gunrunnerx (Dec 22, 2014)

I have one more picture of the motor pulley but I need to learn how to manage my pictures.  I don't have room to upload it.


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## wrmiller (Dec 22, 2014)

There is some limit to the amount/total size of pics you can load until you get to a certain post number.  

Very nice pics though. Now I want mine to get here...

EDIT: Just a suggestion, but if you reduce the size of your posts to say 1280x1024 people can still see detail but the file size drops dramatically.


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## coolidge (Dec 23, 2014)

tmarks11 said:


> *Nice to get rid of those plastic handwheels*.  I wish machinery manufacturers would charge an extra $100 and put classy hand wheels on these things.  My Grizzly G0709G lathe has aluminum hand wheels that I really don't like the shape, feel, or look of.  CI hand wheels are in my future.



I got rid of one yesterday...if fell off 20 inches to the floor and broke in half (face palm)


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## darkzero (Dec 23, 2014)

gunrunnerx said:


> I have one moite picture of the motor pulley but I need to learn how to manage my pictures.  I don't have room to upload it.



http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/28701-Photo-Attachments-Limit?p=250055#post250055




coolidge said:


> I got rid of one yesterday...if fell off 20 inches to the floor and broke in half (face palm)



Haha, I guess that's one way of doing it. :lmao:

When I got my PM45, one of the handles arrived chipped, still useable but of course not acceptable. They're made of a bakelite/phenolic type plastic so they can chip or crack easy on moderate impact or getting dropped. Of course a replacement was sent out immediately. Well it arrived chipped too. The next one made it ok. I was thinking about using the hubs from the damaged ones some day to make new hand wheels, the hubs are metal. But I kind of like Bill's hand wheels & may have to steal his idea. 

Hey Bill, do the handles on your new wheels swivel (rotate) or are they fixed?


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## HMF (Dec 23, 2014)

Thank you so much for relating your setup experiences with this product.

Our members want to see what's involved.


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## zmotorsports (Dec 23, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> But then there are people who would bitc$ and moan about that extra $100 cost. Can't please everyone with only one configuration.
> 
> It WOULD be nice for those of use who appreciate things like this for it to be an optional upgrade though. )



I agree.  I had purchased the Bridgeport ball crank style handles after ordering my PM-932PDF due to that very fact, I wanted something a little nicer and better quality.  Had I ordered it that one if it were an option?  Possibly, depending on the cost but I know there are others who would have complained about the cost.

After changing my order to the PM-935TV which already had that style of handle I merely sold them for what I paid for them but if I hadn't changed my order and had a PM-932 sitting in my shop, it would have the new handles on by now.


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## wrmiller (Dec 23, 2014)

Nels said:


> Thank you so much for relating your setup experiences with this product.
> 
> Our members want to see what's involved.



Hello Nels, didn't think you visited down here.  )

And given the number of views this thread has had, I tend to agree with your statement about wanting to see this thing. I was starting to worry that I might be taking up too much space with this thread and thought about stopping. It's not too big?


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## wrmiller (Dec 23, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I got rid of one yesterday...if fell off 20 inches to the floor and broke in half (face palm)



I have a spare!  :roflmao:


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## wrmiller (Dec 23, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Hey Bill, do the handles on your new wheels swivel (rotate) or are they fixed?



They swivel. And FYI for those interested, IIRC I bought these from Griz to put on Blue but they were just a 'bit' too big IMO (5" diameter). They are heavy, nicely chromed, and balanced very well (as discovered when spinning them on the lathe). The pilot holes were off almost 1/8" though compared to the center of the wheel. Fixed that with a center cutting endmill. )


 So with no home for the new handwheels, I just had to buy a bigger machine to have something to put them on...:lmao:


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## GA Gyro (Dec 23, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> They swivel. And FYI for those interested, IIRC I bought these from Griz to put on Blue but they were just a 'bit' too big IMO (5" diameter). They are heavy, nicely chromed, and balanced very well (as discovered when spinning them on the lathe). The pilot holes were off almost 1/8" though compared to the center of the wheel. Fixed that with a center cutting endmill. )
> 
> 
> *So with no home for the new handwheels, I just had to buy a bigger machine to have something to put them on...*:lmao:



EXCELLENT logic IMO... :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## coolidge (Dec 23, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> I have a spare!  :roflmao:



I was already hot under the collar frustrated trying to dial in my Kurt vice when that happened so I was like ... ...I considered clamping the broken hand wheel in the Kurt and grinding it to chips...instead I took a time out on the front porch to cool off. My brother had my Kurt dialed in when I returned. :rofl:


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## darkzero (Dec 23, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> They swivel. And FYI for those interested, IIRC I bought these from Griz to put on Blue but they were just a 'bit' too big IMO (5" diameter). They are heavy, nicely chromed, and balanced very well (as discovered when spinning them on the lathe). The pilot holes were off almost 1/8" though compared to the center of the wheel. Fixed that with a center cutting endmill. )
> 
> 
> So with no home for the new handwheels, I just had to buy a bigger machine to have something to put them on...:lmao:



 I like the wavy teeth feature that my stock handwheels have, just don't like the handwheels all that much. These have larger teeth but should be ok. Thanks for the info Bill, I think I will order a set for the mill & see how I like them.


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## wrmiller (Dec 23, 2014)

So walked out to the shop this morning with my coffee and was looking at that plastic handwheel for the quill feed and said hmmmm... :thinking:

I'm no artist, but it's functional and I like the feel of it better than that plastic thingie. I guess that was justification enough.  :lmao:




I even managed to make it so the brass handle swivels.


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## darkzero (Dec 23, 2014)

Nice. My quill feed wheel is aluminum but I'm going to replace it too anyway.


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## wrmiller (Jan 22, 2015)

Well, my belt-drive conversion arrived today (thanks David) and it's pretty impressive. Especially heft wise. 

Everything was packed so precisely and wrapped in miles of bubble wrap. Nothing was going to hurt this stuff in transit. I unwrapped what appears to be a wrench of sorts before I took the pic. (update: I just heard from David and the red wrench is to hold the spindle during cutter/collet changes. Cool)





This is the kit laid out on my computer desk.




Just a little bigger than the belt-drive kit for my PM25...  :lmao:

Now the fun starts: I have to figure out how to take the motor and top plate off the head, drain the head and remove all the gears and shifter components and then get this bolted up. Instructions are minimal, and primarily focused on the install and alignment of the belt drive, not the removal of the gears and stuff. But I will go slow and try not to break anything as I'm removing it. Interestingly, the gears run in a oil bath but the spindle bearings are greased. Probably a nightmare (read expensive) to run the spindle bearings in an oil bath for a mill in this price range.

Wish me luck...  :bitingnails:


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## arizonavideo (Jan 23, 2015)

Hi guys: First post and happy to find this forum. It will take a while to get up to speed. 

Just a little fun but this is how you use the red steel thing I sent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WacnLxxvohE

Hope it all works well for you.

Dave


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## zr8cnc (Jan 23, 2015)

I am very interested in the details of how your belt drive installation goes...subscribed!


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## GA Gyro (Jan 23, 2015)

arizonavideo said:


> Hi guys: First post and happy to find this forum. It will take a while to get up to speed.
> 
> Just a little fun but this is how you use the red steel thing I sent.
> 
> ...



Cool video...
Wish mine was that easy to reach... I have a PM935... I have to reach 'up there' to those fittings... 

Welcome to HM forum!

Look around... then pull up a chair, open a container of your favourite beverage, put your feet up, and tell us about your interests with metalworking.


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## wrmiller (Jan 24, 2015)

Wow...

First I unbolted the motor from the top plate and attempted to lift it. Nothing doing. OK. Then I thought it had to come off with the top plate, so I removed the four bolts in the front half of the top plate. Plate was 'slightly' loose at the front but the back wasn't moving. Checked the new top plate and there are holes back there for two more bolts. But they are under the motor flange. Seriously? So I start prying the motor up as evenly as I can from opposing sides at the same time. I managed to get it up about 1/4" or so and looked under it and yup, there are two more bolts in the top plate. I then look at the motor shaft and expect to see the drive gear coming up with the motor. Nope. I see a shaft and key all covered in corrosion being pulled out of a shaft or something.

It takes me the better part of two hours to get the motor off (I'm trying to pry evenly on the motor, but it's taking both hands so I started wondering if I could catch the motor when it finally comes loose. Good news...I didn't drop it) and the top plate. David says that after the top plate comes off, you need to take out the shifter forks before the gears. Well, when I finally got the top plate loose and lifted it off all of the gears/shafts came with it except for one. Oops...




This is the one shaft that didn't come out, but it was just sitting cockeyed/loose in the bottom of the head. It tried to come out with everyone else.




And here's what was left in the head. There is a little bit of powder (iron probably) in the bottom of the head. It has some gold flecks in it too.




There was this blue sealant stuff everywhere, and it was still soft like it just came out of the tube. But after pulling the front plate off I could see where the oil was leaking down the front and onto my vise. Scraped all that crap off. Good riddance.  




The belt drive kit comes with a new front cover that doesn't have holes in it for the shifter levers. Maybe I can get someone to put El Hefe on it.  :roflmao:

I'm going to sop up as much of that residual oil as I can, and figure out how to get the shift levers out. Then tomorrow I can deal with mounting the motor and drive pulley to the new plate and getting the pulleys aligned. Should be a piece of cake after that. (where have I heard THAT before?)


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## wrmiller (Jan 24, 2015)

Now we're cooking with gas...  )

The tapered bushing for the motor pulley has it's draw-down bolts facing the motor so getting the pulleys aligned was a lot of trial and error but I think I have it pretty close.




So tomorrow I will be putting the top plate and motor back on the head. Now David warned me that the spindle may not be perfectly perpendicular to the top plate mounting surface which can cause noise amongst other things. Shims? Guess I'll find out tomorrow. My left bicep is starting to ache from picking up this motor about 50 times (at least) so I'm calling it a night. This thing is fairly heavy for only a 3hp motor.

That or I'm just getting too old...  :roflmao:

EDIT: Oh, and I was mistaken about the powder in the bottom of the head. There wasn't any. Just some of that blue stuff that looks black under oil, and some bare spots that didn't get painted. Head was very clean once I got the remaining oil out.


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## maker of things (Jan 25, 2015)

Bill, your mention of spindle grease jolted a memory.  Are you going to Kluber grease the spindle bearings?


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## wrmiller (Jan 25, 2015)

maker of things said:


> Bill, your mention of spindle grease jolted a memory.  Are you going to Kluber grease the spindle bearings?



Hi Jon, haven't heard from you in a while. How have you been? 

Honestly, I hadn't thought about it. CO upgraded the bearings when the 3 hp motor was put on. Paul told me they are good to 7k for short bursts but should run at 5k all day. I 'assumed' he had his people use an appropriate grease, but I'll send him a line and ask what he used. Thanks.

It sure would be nice if I had a exploded view/parts diagram for this thing.


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## wrmiller (Jan 25, 2015)

Well, tried to put the motor/top plate assy. onto the head and ran into a slight problem.

The bearing/spline housing on the bottom front of the top plate sits too far down into the head.




And the bearing runs into the bearing(?) collar around the spindle.




There is about 1/2" or so of 'interference fit' such that the top plate won't come all the way down to it's mating surface on the head.  anic:

Sent David a email, waiting to hear back. Nothing is ever easy...


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## coolidge (Jan 25, 2015)

Seems like you would need to remove that factory piece in photo 2 bill, I'm assuming that's with the spindle all the way down, there's not much of the splined spindle for the belt drive to grab onto without removing that factory piece.


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## coolidge (Jan 25, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> It sure would be nice if I had a exploded view/parts diagram for this thing.



Abracadabra here's a link to the PDF, its clear and you can zoom way in on the exploded view http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g0762_m.pdf


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## wrmiller (Jan 25, 2015)

Yes, the second pic is with the spindle fully extended.

And a BIG thankyou for the pdf. I looked at that mill but wasn't sure if it would be the same. Going to go out and take new look at that top piece on the spindle.


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## wrmiller (Jan 25, 2015)

Coolidge: If we ever get the chance to meet face-to-face, I owe you several Adult Beverages. Again, a big thanks. (love this forum)

So I got everything mounted then the spindle wouldn't retract all the way up into the head. anicavid has a o-ring in there that is too fat for my spindle. Have you ever tried shaving the inside of a o-ring with an Exacto knive? Glad no one was there watching.

Finally got that fixed, wired it up and turned it on. I had the pot turned down to zero when I flipped the FWD switch then watched the VFD remote as I started bringing up the frequency while looking for a fault. By the time I got to 20hz I was starting to worry because I couldn't hear anything other than the constant speed fan on the motor and the VFD (which is fairly noisy). Got to 30hz and I look over at the belt drive and it's spinning merrily AND NOT MAKING A SOUND. Seriously? This is too cool.

Once I started cranking it up I could start hearing the motor a little but that belt drive is spooky quiet. Oh and a big thanks to David for making a very high quality kit. Everything fits perfectly. No wobble on the drive motor pulley (I was careful to evenly torque the bolts on the drive pulley and never had it go out of kilter). This thing is leagues above my other belt drive kit I bought for the PM25.

So here's what it looks like up there.




I have to fab a mounting bracket for the FWD/REV/OFF switch as the motor now sits higher and the factory was very skimpy with their cabling. Other than that, it's done. )


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## brav65 (Jan 26, 2015)

Nice work Bill, I have a little bit of Machine envy even though I just got my machine, and have not even explored all of it's capabilities.  I guess it is a guy thing.  Congrats on this well executed upgrade!


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## maker of things (Jan 27, 2015)

You probably don't have to put any oil back in the head since the gears are out?  I noticed the oil froths out the vent more now that the oil is cold.


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## wrmiller (Jan 27, 2015)

maker of things said:


> You probably don't have to put any oil back in the head since the gears are out?  I noticed the oil froths out the vent more now that the oil is cold.



Nope. Dry head from now on. No gears, no oil.

This gets rid of my seeping out the hi/low lever onto my vise leak too. )


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## GA Gyro (Jan 27, 2015)

I do not know much about vertical head bed mills...
However a curiosity question:  I realize the gears are gone, so no more oil needed for them.
What about the spindle bearings inside the head?  Curious... THX!


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## wrmiller (Jan 27, 2015)

The spindle bearings are greased per design. The oil is only for the power transmission gearing and kept out of the spindle itself. So when you remove the gears there is no longer any need to have oil in the head.


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## GA Gyro (Jan 27, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> The spindle bearings are greased per design. The oil is only for the power transmission gearing and kept out of the spindle itself. So when you remove the gears there is no longer any need to have oil in the head.



THX, did not know that.


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## zr8cnc (Jan 27, 2015)

I understand the belt drive kit will raise the motor higher. Do you how many inches the kit actually raised the motor?


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## wrmiller (Jan 27, 2015)

zr8cnc said:


> I understand the belt drive kit will raise the motor higher. Do you how many inches the kit actually raised the motor?



About 4.1".


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## zr8cnc (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you! Also since you had the head apart how much more work would it have been to install the bearings yourself?





wrmiller19 said:


> About 4.1".


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## wrmiller (Jan 27, 2015)

I honestly don't know. After removal of the spindle oil seal and it's housing, you can see the top spindle bearing and preload nut. But I didn't really look at it to see what it would take to go any further. I don't know if you could remove the spindle from the quill without removing it from the head first or not. Once you get all the gears out of the head there really isn't anything else in there except the quill/spindle assy. 

Oh, and I screwed up the original height number. I was measuring from the bottom of the top plate to the bottom of the motor plate. The original top plate looks to also be about 1" thick, so I would guesstimate that the overall net gain in height is more like 3", not 4". Sorry.


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## zr8cnc (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks for the quick reply. Also I  am happy to know its 3" and not 4" as I have a height constraint and could use every inch. I live about an hour away from CO and could always have them swap the bearings.



wrmiller19 said:


> I honestly don't know. After removal of the spindle oil seal and it's housing, you can see the top spindle bearing and preload nut. But I didn't really look at it to see what it would take to go any further. I don't know if you could remove the spindle from the quill without removing it from the head first or not. Once you get all the gears out of the head there really isn't anything else in there except the quill/spindle assy.
> 
> Oh, and I screwed up the original height number. I was measuring from the bottom of the top plate to the bottom of the motor plate. The original top plate looks to also be about 1" thick, so I would guesstimate that the overall net gain in height is more lie 3", not 4". Sorry.


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## wrmiller (Jan 27, 2015)

They put my upgraded bearings in when they did the 3hp motor install. Probably because it's a 3600 rpm motor and the stock one is 1800.

Keep in mind that unless you are using really tall fixturing or working on really big parts the motor is likely to not go much over the top of the column. I spend most of my time working down on a 5" vise and seldom get the head very high on the column. But you have to put it up there at least once, just to see what all that Z-axis travel looks like. 

My friend's BP clone didn't have this much travel in Z. Pretty certain I won't be using all of this any time soon, unless I'm decking a small v-8 block or something.


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## gwk (Jan 28, 2015)

looks great, only thing you have to do is engrave the front plate now .


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## coolidge (Jan 31, 2015)

gwk said:


> looks great, only thing you have to do is engrave the front plate now .



If you want a ultra cool front plate the company to contact is Front Panel Express here in Washington State. You can order a precision CNC machined front panel drilled, machined, engraved in a variety of thicknesses. Materials include and anodized aluminum in a variety of colors, powder coated, Acrylic, plus they will infill the engraving with contrasting colors.

No wait, it gets cooler. They developed their own easy to use CAD software you can download for free to design your panel. The damn quoting for price and ordering is built in, as a software engineer let me tell you this is pretty cool stuff. Its not Mastercam or anything but they really make this easy.

http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/


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## wrmiller (Jan 31, 2015)

Ok, so a friend here is threatening to embarrass me if I don't report on how this new belt drive actually works (probably don't need to mention his name... 

So I clamped a piece of HRS I had laying around and took a 50 thou swipe. Not even sure the mill knew it was cutting anything. My apologies everyone, as I've gotten used to using smaller machines over the last decade and am used to the machine being the limiter of my cuts instead of the material and cutter.

So I took a .25 DOC full-width pass with a 1/2" fine carbide rougher at a fairly moderate pace on the power feed. I think El Hefe knew he was cutting something, but it barely registered. Chips were coming out a little blue so I backed off the spindle speed and the feed rate a bit and the mill just hummed along smooth as butter. No muss, no fuss. And hardly any noise at all. This thing is almost TOO quiet. 

I am going to go through a phase here where I am going to toast a few cutters here and there, as I am not used to having a machine that can overpower a cutter in very short order. (prior to the belt change I took a 3/8" carbide rougher and buried it full depth in 1" thick steel like I was profiling a piece of wood on a jigsaw. Dark blue chips, and could have used a bit of coolant to protect the cutter, but the mill wasn't even straining a bit. I'm really liking this mill...)

So anyway, here's a few 'action shots' to appease Charles (oops...) :rofl:










Here's a quartering shot of El Hefe wearing his new belt drive. I think he looks pretty good. But then I'm probably biased a bit.




I need to come clean on something though: I screwed up the reinstall of the electrical somehow (well...I know what I did, just not sure how). The motor now spins opposite of what it used to. So...I promptly ruined a brand new 1/2" carbide end mill before I realized what had happened. :angry: Lets just say there were plenty of 'bad words' flying around the shop for a bit as I examined three chipped flutes out of four.

But rather than ruin the moment, I just put the fwd/rev switch in reverse and took the cuts and pictures. But after stopping and starting the machine a few times I decided I liked the fact that you turn the switch clockwise to get the motor spinning clockwise and counterclockwise to spin the motor counterclockwise. So I took a sharpie and lined out the words 'Forward' and 'Reverse' on the switch and put a big 'F' and 'R' in the top corners of the switch label. It just makes sense to me this way (OK, I'm left-handed/right-brained but so what...) Those of you who are machine purists can gasp if you want but I'm going to leave it like this. :lmao:

Nobody's perfect. Least of all me.


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## zr8cnc (Feb 1, 2015)

AWESOME FEEDBACK!



wrmiller19 said:


> Ok, so a friend here is threatening to embarrass me if I don't report on how this new belt drive actually works (probably don't need to mention his name...
> 
> So I clamped a piece of HRS I had laying around and took a 50 thou swipe. Not even sure the mill knew it was cutting anything. My apologies everyone, as I've gotten used to using smaller machines over the last decade and am used to the machine being the limiter of my cuts instead of the material and cutter.
> 
> ...


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## arizonavideo (Feb 1, 2015)

Its nice to see it all working so well. 

With smaller bits often you can talk just fine while milling.


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## wrmiller (Feb 1, 2015)

arizonavideo said:


> Its nice to see it all working so well.
> 
> With smaller bits often you can talk just fine while milling.



I can believe that!


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## wrmiller (Feb 2, 2015)

Ok, now I'm not sure I did anything wrong when I re-connected the wiring. Looking at the front of the motor, there's a big red arrow indicating the direction of spin to be counter-clockwise (looking down on the motor). This is the normal direction of rotation when the fwd/off/rev switch is in the 'fwd' position.

But with the belt drive installed, a counter-clockwise spinning motor also has the spindle turning counter-clockwise which is the WRONG direction for a regular end mill. WTF?!?

When I gutted the head, I removed four shafts: one on the motor, two intermediate, and one on the spindle. So if the motor is spinning CCW, the spindle will spin CW given that arrangement.

Maybe I didn't wire the motor backwards... :thinking:

David?


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## arizonavideo (Feb 2, 2015)

To change the rotation of a three phase motor you just switch any two wires and it will run the other way. 

I have not heard of people running backwards but it is so easy to change rotation perhaps no one said anything.

If your used to the switch flipping one way to go one way then stay with that and flip the wires.


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## wrmiller (Feb 2, 2015)

Does it hurt the motor to leave it the way it is, i.e. does the motor have a preferred rotation? Thanks.


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## John Hasler (Feb 2, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> Does it hurt the motor to leave it the way it is, i.e. does the motor have a preferred rotation? Thanks.



The motor will be perfectly happy running either way.


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## wrmiller (Feb 2, 2015)

Thanks John!


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## zmotorsports (Feb 2, 2015)

Looks like a very nice setup you have there Bill.  Congrats.

Mike.


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## wrmiller (Feb 2, 2015)

zmotorsports said:


> Looks like a very nice setup you have there Bill.  Congrats.
> 
> Mike.



Thanks Mike. It's not your 935, but it will have to do.


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## zr8cnc (Feb 4, 2015)

Wrmiller19,

How heavy was the gear head when you removed it from the column? Is this something that can be done without a hoist or overhead crane?


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## zr8cnc (Feb 4, 2015)

I am getting excited to add a belt conversion to my pm45 CNC. I ordered a nice baldor 3hp motor last night and I am now I am looking for a good easy replacement for my delta 2hp vfd for a 3hp vfd.


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## wrmiller (Feb 4, 2015)

zr8cnc said:


> Wrmiller19,
> 
> How heavy was the gear head when you removed it from the column? Is this something that can be done without a hoist or overhead crane?



I didn't remove the head to do the belt drive conversion. Paul at Charter Oak suggested I just lower the head to the table and use a step stool (wife had one handy that she uses in the kitchen) to get high enough to work. Wasn't sure that was possible as I had CO add 4" of height to the stand when they built it. Actually though, I did most of the diss-assembly while standing on the floor. It wasn't until I had to lift the top plate clear of the spindle that I climbed up on the little step ladder.

If you want to remove the head though, I suggest something similar to the method Paul described to do the one-shot oiling mod for the head carrier:

Stack two 4x4s on either side of the quill and lower the head until all load is taken off the Z-axis screw. Strap the head down to the table using two eye bolts with 1/2" threads to a couple of t-slot nuts. Unbolt the head from the column and use the Y-axis screw to walk the head away from the column. Reverse the process to re-install. This is what they do when putting the one-shot oiling system on their CNC and manual machines.

According to Paul the head of the CO mill weighs about 300 lbs. At that point I decided I didn't want to even think about removing that puppy. 

I will mention however that to reinstall the top plate with the belt drive and motor already installed and aligned I ended up literally standing on the mill's chip pan to do this. The assy weighed about 60 lbs or so and trying to balance it while getting it over the splines of the quill required that I get high enough to have some leverage/control. I'm not sure if your mill's stand will permit this but the CO stand is wide enough that I can get my 13EEEs on either side of the mill base and right over the legs of the stand. It was comforting to note that even with my largess up there, the mill and stand was as stable as if I was standing on the concrete floor of my garage. )


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## zr8cnc (Feb 4, 2015)

thank you for the detailed response. I will just lower the head to the table and start my disassembly.    



wrmiller19 said:


> I didn't remove the head to do the belt drive conversion. Paul at Charter Oak suggested I just lower the head to the table and use a step stool (wife had one handy that she uses in the kitchen) to get high enough to work. Wasn't sure that was possible as I had CO add 4" of height to the stand when they built it. Actually though, I did most of the diss-assembly while standing on the floor. It wasn't until I had to lift the top plate clear of the spindle that I climbed up on the little step ladder.
> 
> If you want to remove the head though, I suggest something similar to the method Paul described to do the one-shot oiling mod for the head carrier:
> 
> ...


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## arizonavideo (Feb 5, 2015)

To install the drive I set the motor pulley up on the bench and mount the motor plate and the right stand off to the motor plate and just set the drive on the head and then drop the motor on. The left motor stand off can be on the top plate or motor plate. It is easy to slide off so you have to watch it.

You have to have the stand off with the lock handle on first because the little bolt that holds the handle on must be tightened up before it it mounted to the top plate.

To remove all the gears I just lowered the head all the way. It is a bit easier if you remove the quill so you don't have to lift over it.


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## zr8cnc (Feb 5, 2015)

thanks for the information Dave. I will be in contact with you about ordering a kit.



arizonavideo said:


> To install the drive I set the motor pulley up on the bench and mount the motor plate and the right stand off to the motor plate and just set the drive on the head and then drop the motor on. The left motor stand off can be on the top plate or motor plate. It is easy to slide off so you have to watch it.
> 
> You have to have the stand off with the lock handle on first because the little bolt that holds the handle on must be tightened up before it it mounted to the top plate.
> 
> To remove all the gears I just lowered the head all the way. It is a bit easier if you remove the quill so you don't have to lift over it.


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## wrmiller (Feb 5, 2015)

arizonavideo said:


> To install the drive I set the motor pulley up on the bench and mount the motor plate and the right stand off to the motor plate and just set the drive on the head and then drop the motor on. The left motor stand off can be on the top plate or motor plate. It is easy to slide off so you have to watch it.
> 
> You have to have the stand off with the lock handle on first because the little bolt that holds the handle on must be tightened up before it it mounted to the top plate.
> 
> To remove all the gears I just lowered the head all the way. It is a bit easier if you remove the quill so you don't have to lift over it.



Thanks Dave! (Now he tells me all his secrets... ):lmao:


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## wrmiller (Feb 6, 2015)

I knew I was missing something...

I forgot to change the VFD params after installing the belt drive! Doh! Paul at CO wrote to tell me that now that I've gotten rid of those gears and the associated parasitic losses, to go ahead and increase three params, all dealing with max motor freq. to 70hz. But he also cautioned that the bearings installed with the 3hp motor will run at 5000 rpm all day, but can only handle short bursts to 6000 rpm. I will be surprised if I ever need anything over 5k. This thing is really moving at that rpm. Very impressive. And spooky. As I've said before, this thing is almost too quiet. Now I need to make a chart of motor frequency and spindle rpm. I bought one of those cheap non-contact rpm meters on Ebay just for this purpose.

Then I'm going to try and get my digital scale mounted for the quill this weekend.

In another thread here, we were discussing rotary tables and someone (Mike or Will?) was saying that they couldn't use their 6" on their bigger machine because the handwheel hits the front of the table when attempting to mount it. So tonight I just happened to remember talking about this and pulled my little 6" (it doesn't look little on my PM25) rotary table and put it on El Hefe's table to see if it fits. Well, if I hadn't mounted my X-axis scale on the front of the table, it would have fit fine while bolted to the middle slot. But, it will work fine bolted to the table's front slot (I can get 2" or more past the front of the table) so it will work fine.




It does look a little small on this larger table though. :lmao:


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## GA Gyro (Feb 6, 2015)

I may need to get some of those yellow t-slot guards... using the shop vac to get chips out of the T slots is a PITA... and I am not talking about a tasty morsel for a snack... :rofl: 

Or is that PETA... getting late... ZZZZZ


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## wrmiller (Feb 6, 2015)

'night John... :lmao:

Those guards were one of the smartest things I've done.


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## darkzero (Feb 6, 2015)

Yup, thanks to GaryK, I've never had my T-slots so clean! Just wish I listened to him when he was asking me to go in on them with him, may he rest in peace.

Yeah that was me & that was the only way I could use the 6" RT on my 9" table too, on the front slot. On my 6" it was actually the handwheel dial that hit the table first in adition to not being able to swing out the handwheel to disengage the worm. My 6" also did not line up with the slots when mounted vertically. Even if the slots did line up, same issue, handwheel would hit the edge first.

I really didn't want to go through the hassle of getting another RT but it worked out absolutely perfect for me, well better than that. Matt hooked me up with the 8" RT for free, yup that's $0 shipped! I offered to send him the 6" & he told me to sell it. I ended up selling it locally for the same price I paid for it on ebay. Another reason why I am loyal to him, he's the best!

The 8" really does look right at home on my table but then again I don't think the 6" looks that puny on your larger table.


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## zr8cnc (Feb 6, 2015)

Does anyone know the brand and part number for the spindle bearings that CO installs? I just feel that I have read of people putting in bearings that meet the higher rpms


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## wrmiller (Feb 7, 2015)

zr8cnc said:


> Does anyone know the brand and part number for the spindle bearings that CO installs? I just feel that I have read of people putting in bearings that meet the higher rpms



Contact arizonavideo (the belt drive guy) a few posts above this. I saw a vid of him clocking 9000 rpm on an older IH mill. Yikes!

He will know what bearings you want.


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## zr8cnc (Feb 7, 2015)

Thanks I will! Not that I will run at anywhere near that rpm range but it would be nice to know that I am running at 60% of the rpm range and not 90%



wrmiller19 said:


> Contact arizonavideo (the belt drive guy) a few posts above this. I saw a vid of him clocking 9000 rpm on an older IH mill. Yikes!
> 
> He will know what bearings you want.


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## GA Gyro (Feb 7, 2015)

darkzero said:


> Yup, thanks to GaryK, I've never had my T-slots so clean! Just wish I listened to him when he was asking me to go in on them with him, may he rest in peace.
> 
> Yeah that was me & that was the only way I could use the 6" RT on my 9" table too, on the front slot. On my 6" it was actually the handwheel dial that hit the table first in adition to not being able to swing out the handwheel to disengage the worm. My 6" also did not line up with the slots when mounted vertically. Even if the slots did line up, same issue, handwheel would hit the edge first.
> 
> ...



Looks good Will...

May need to talk to Matt on that rotary table... 

Where does one get the T slot strips...

And is there a thread on Gary K?  Being relatively new here, I see he was a MOD, and has passed on.


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## wrmiller (Feb 7, 2015)

So played a little more with the belt drive this morning. David told me he made my pulleys slightly smaller for some reason so his ratio/Hz would ballpark but I wanted to take some samples. So here's what I got with the little rpm gauge this morning

*FREQUENCY          LOW RANGE* *HIGH RANGE*

10 Hz                       220 rpm                 710 rpm
15 Hz                       340 rpm               1075 rpm
20 Hz                       445 rpm               1454 rpm
25 Hz                       560 rpm               1819 rpm
30 Hz                       685 rpm               2180 rpm
35 Hz                       800 rpm               2535 rpm
40 Hz                       910 rpm               2890 rpm
45 Hz                     1030 rpm               3280 rpm
50 Hz                     1140 rpm               3660 rpm
55 Hz                     1260 rpm               3985 rpm
60 Hz                     1365 rpm               4350 rpm
65 Hz                     1485 rpm               4725 rpm
70 Hz                     1600 rpm               5090 rpm


I kept the frequency at +/- .3 to try to get some semblance of accuracy, but again this is just a reference for me to get to an approximate starting rpm that I will then tune as required depending on how the cut is going. I did notice a very slight vibration/hum when I got around 65 Hz and above in high range and noticed some belt wobble/vibration (for lack of a better term) at around that same time. Didn't notice anything in low, so it's definitely high rpm related. In all honesty I probably won't get above 4k very often anyway. 

Does anyone know where I can go to get a little plastic card made up with the above data so I can hang it right next to the VFD remote? I can't find a place to mount a MachTach on this machine, so rather than use that little contactless rpm gauge all the time I could just refer to my chart. 

EDIT: sorry for the jumbled info above. Had it very nicely organized then this forum software screwed it up.


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## darkzero (Feb 7, 2015)

GA said:


> Looks good Will...
> 
> May need to talk to Matt on that rotary table...
> 
> ...



Thanks John! I believe Matt sells the 8" Vertex for $370 shipped but don't quote me on that.

The T-slot covers are from supramachinetool on ebay which is the US distributor of Acer machine tools. They sell them in different widths. My slots are 14mm so I got the covers from them but if you have 5/8" slots, enco also sells them.

This was the only thread posted about Gary. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/16584-In-Memorium-Gary-K He has some threads in the PM section on his PM1236 & PM45M.


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## JimDawson (Feb 7, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> *Does anyone know where I can go to get a little plastic card made up with the above data so I can hang it right next to the VFD remote?* I can't find a place to mount a MachTach on this machine, so rather than use that little contactless rpm gauge all the time I could just refer to my chart.




Just print it out and Kinkos, or Office Depot should be able to laminate it.  Maybe they can offer another method also.


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## brav65 (Feb 7, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> So played a little more with the belt drive this morning. David told me he made my pulleys slightly smaller for some reason so his ratio/Hz would ballpark but I wanted to take some samples. So here's what I got with the little rpm gauge this morning
> 
> *FREQUENCY          LOW RANGE* *HIGH RANGE*
> 
> ...



Bill,

Just type it up in Word or Excel print it on photo paper and laminate it.  If you don't have a laminator you should be able to have it done a a copy place like kinko's for pretty cheap.  Glue some magnets on the back and stick it wherever it will fit.  I have also seen magnets with adhesive on one side that you could apply your label directly to.  Here is an adhesive sheet magnet that you could trim to any size you need:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/370296330666?lpid=82&chn=ps


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## GA Gyro (Feb 7, 2015)

darkzero said:


> Thanks John! I believe Matt sells the 8" Vertex for $370 shipped but don't quote me on that.
> 
> The T-slot covers are from supramachinetool on ebay which is the US distributor of Acer machine tools. They sell them in different widths. My slots are 14mm so I got the covers from them but if you have 5/8" slots, enco also sells them.
> 
> This was the only thread posted about Gary. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/16584-In-Memorium-Gary-K He has some threads in the PM section on his PM1236 & PM45M.



THX Will...

Gary was before my time, from what I have read, a good guy.  

Will look into the rotary table Matt has... however I kinda need a 10" (specific project).  Yeah, gonna be $$$, or Chinese.
And HEAVY!

I believe I have the larger slots, so probably will have to wait for an Enco sale. 

Appreciate the answers

John


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## arizonavideo (Feb 7, 2015)

The top and bottom bearings look to be the same in all the RF-45 clone mills.


top, (koyo) 7206BGC3 FY S0607
bottom, (koyo) 7207BGC3 FY S0605  35mm x 72mm 

You may need to make a shim for the top preload nut to stay on the threads. The A/C bearings are a bit shorter. 

The bottom big end race is driven out with the help of two small holes that are drilled in the quill. 

The top bearing often fits too tight and makes setting preload a real pain from stick slip. If yours is really tight sand the spindle shaft with some 600 or higher grit. 

Clean the seats really well and look for high spots.

I don't recommend 9000 RPM ever. 5 to 7k is about it depending on the spindle. Some vibrate more than others. 

I had one that just vibrated like crazy. Replaced it and it was 95% better but at 9000 RPM it makes this not so cool high frequency vibration that says stand back.....

It vibrates a little at 4k and 8k so I dont run at that speed. The spindles are not really made for high speed. One had the metal between centers was out of round by at least .050" others newer one were all turned down. One had .003" runout on the spline shaft another .001"


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## wrmiller (Feb 7, 2015)

Now if we could just find someone with a CNC lathe that could make a better spindle...


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## wrmiller (Feb 15, 2015)

Just a FYI for those considering a 12z with the VFD option: I would consider moving it off the back of the column where CO normally installs it. Now mine hasn't had much in the way of chips and oil get to it yet, but it's just sitting out there in the open just waiting for a chip to rebound off a wall or something and land close enough to those cooling vents to possibly get sucked in.

So today I made a mounting plate and stuck it on the right rear leg of the machine stand. It is now under the chip tray and out of the way of errant flying debris. 

I also replaced those in-line valves on my oiling system with 90 degree valves that thread directly into the manifold and moved the manifold to the back of the column to get this out of the way as well.


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## coolidge (Feb 21, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> Just a FYI for those considering a 12z with the VFD option: I would consider moving it off the back of the column where CO normally installs it. Now mine hasn't had much in the way of chips and oil get to it yet, but it's just sitting out there in the open just waiting for a chip to rebound off a wall or something and land close enough to those cooling vents to possibly get sucked in.
> 
> So today I made a mounting plate and stuck it on the right rear leg of the machine stand. It is now under the chip tray and out of the way of errant flying debris.
> 
> I also replaced those in-line valves on my oiling system with 90 degree valves that thread directly into the manifold and moved the manifold to the back of the column to get this out of the way as well.



Seconded, I would go further and tell them not to mount it on the column in the first place thus avoiding them drilling/tapping holes in the column.


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## arizonavideo (Mar 13, 2015)

vacuum former?

oops that was from the first page


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## brav65 (Mar 13, 2015)

Hey Bill let's see some pictures of that beast!


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## wrmiller (Mar 21, 2015)

Hey Brooks, I guess I missed this post. Sorry. 

Haven't taken too many pics of El Hefe since I finished all the mods. Here's one of the last ones I took.


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## brav65 (Mar 21, 2015)

Looks awesome Bill.  Thanks for showing me a picture of the final results.  He looks very menacing, I would love to see some glowing eyes on the stainless front panel to complete the effect.


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## wrmiller (Mar 21, 2015)

Hmmm...that's not a bad idea.


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## coolidge (Mar 22, 2015)

Bill where did you get those nice  hand wheels?


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## darkzero (Mar 22, 2015)

coolidge said:


> Bill where did you get those nice  hand wheels?



They're made by Flair/Chang Iron Taiwan. Grizzly has the best price on them. I got me some too thanks to Bill. Post #148 shows how I machined them to fit. Get ya some!


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## wrmiller (Mar 22, 2015)

I much prefer the feel of the metal wheels and handles. Will did a much more professional install than I did, but I will do mine proper one day. Probably. Maybe?


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## coolidge (Mar 22, 2015)

I received a set of these cast hand wheels with the new mill as a bonus, Paul got these in with their latest shipment. I was going to make a set myself but now I think I'll just use these, maybe tidy them up on the lathe and paint them.


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## wrmiller (Mar 22, 2015)

Paint the centers black and polish the outer wheel and handle.


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## darkzero (Mar 22, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> I much prefer the feel of the metal wheels and handles. Will did a much more professional install than I did, but I will do mine proper one day. Probably. Maybe?



Agreed. As far as machining the drive, might as well. It's actually pretty simple. Just use a 5/16" end mill, align the endmill edge to centerline & mill straight across. Then rotate & do the next one. I forget how many degress to rotate but I can co firm if you need if/when you do it. Just go off the stock handwheel & you'll figure it out.



wrmiller19 said:


> Paint the centers black and polish the outer wheel and handle.



Agreed x2. I too wanted to paint my centers black but was concerned about the paint wearing off over time from my hands.


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## wrmiller (Jul 11, 2015)

And now he has a proper name on him, courtesy of MakerOfThings. 

Thanks Jon!


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## coolidge (Jul 11, 2015)

Bill I see you are still using the barrel switch, everyone says that's a no-no with a VFD. I love the Cuttler Hammer pot I installed vs that thing that comes on the remote panel.


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## wrmiller (Jul 11, 2015)

I used it all the time when I first got the machine, with no issues whatsoever (as evidenced by the renaming on the front of it when I installed the belt drive). According to 'everyone' it should have damaged something the first time I used it.

For the record, I no longer use it when power is applied. Call off the VFD police please.


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## coolidge (Jul 11, 2015)

Yeah but...its another opportunity to mod your machine. Look if you run out of things to mod next thing you know you will be buying yet another mill. 

PS: I tore my mill half apart and applied a tube of 'stop leaking damn you'. That cured all the leaks...until the drain plug started leaking DOH!


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## wrmiller (Jul 11, 2015)

Well, honestly, I'm a bit tired of modding machines at the moment. I'm trying to use them to make things. Like making a custom base to put a holo sight on my .45 (the eyes are not what they used to be...)




It will kinda look like this when done.




I saw a company on Ebay selling 'servo controls' to replace belt or mechanical pulley drives on  BP type mills. If I didn't already own a VFD I might be tempted just so I don't have to go through this again. Look how long it took me to get around to installing the VFD on my lathe.


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## coolidge (Jul 11, 2015)

What's a Holo sight? Most sights are useless to me without my reading glasses, my Sigs have the glow in the dark night sights which work pretty well. I have Sig Elite Dark addiction, I own one in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP now.

I hear you on mods, I get sick of modifying machines trust me, I just want to use them not make a hobby out of wrenching on them. (Coolidge wanders off with Haas mill drool)


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## wrmiller (Jul 11, 2015)

holographic sight. Similar to a red dot. Single plane sighting mechanism. Don't need to focus on two components. Just follow the bouncing ball...er...dot.


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## dave2176 (Jul 12, 2015)

Wow, I would have thought a holo sight couldn't take the rough movement of the slide. When shooting a pistol don't even look at the rear sight, just the target and bring the front sight inline without taking your eyes off the target and fire. It is amazingly accurate. 
Dave


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## wrmiller (Jul 12, 2015)

Years ago they couldn't take the pounding. Now they can. Ain't technology great?


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## brav65 (Jul 12, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> holographic sight. Similar to a red dot. Single plane sighting mechanism. Don't need to focus on two components. Just follow the bouncing ball...er...dot.




That just brought to mind the image of Elmer Fud hunting wabbits


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