# PM25 Owners



## wrmiller (Dec 13, 2013)

So I just ordered mine today and was wondering if it will show up in two boxes or one?

Anything in particular to look for during setup?

Thanks,
Bill


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## Rbeckett (Dec 14, 2013)

They have been showing up in two boxes, but Matt can confirm that.  They also come through very clean without all that excess cosmoline gooped on.  A good easy cleaning and follow the break in instructions and you will be off and running pretty quickly.  The breakin run helps set the bearings and allows everything to run up to operating speed and temps.  After a month I believe an oil change is recommended and an annual change thereafter.  Again Matt will be glad to answer all of those question a lot more authoritavely or Ray C may come along and help you out too.  Ray helps Matt on this site to insure any issues are addressed and all questions are satisfactorily answered as quickly as possible.  Hope this helps.

Bob


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## Ray C (Dec 14, 2013)

In virtually all mills, the base/stand and main unit each come in their own container.  If you purchased accessories, they are usually packed inside the crate with the main unit.

Clarification:  By base, I mean the stand.  The table is a part of the main unit.


Ray






wrmiller19 said:


> So I just ordered mine today and was wondering if it will show up in two boxes or one?
> 
> Anything in particular to look for during setup?
> 
> ...


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## wrmiller (Dec 14, 2013)

Thanks guys, info appreciated.

Oil change?? I thought these bf20 designs were a dry head?

Bill


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## SENC (Dec 30, 2013)

Bill... in researching a decision btw a LMS3960 and PM25, I see you had the 3960 and recently bought a PM25.  Would you mind sharing your thoughts on pros and cons of both?
Thanks in advance,
Henry


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## wrmiller (Dec 31, 2013)

Hi Henry,

When I decided to purchase the PM25 I thought I would sell the LMS, but have decided to keep it instead. I've never had a second/backup machine, but I have already made parts for the PM on it's little brother.  

The reason I bought the PM was because I wanted a slightly larger machine. I REALLY  wanted the PM30L, but I wasn't sure I could handle it by myself.

The biggest advantage the PM has over the LMS is size of course. While I don't have farm implements to repair, or need to make custom parts for a hot-rod/Harley build (I wish...), I found the LMS a bit on the small side for some things I do. The PM is literally the LMS' big brother. The LMS weighs under 150 lbs with a vise and DRO scales on it and I can pick it up and move it by myself with no hoist or other assistance.

The PM weighs almost double that, and I bought a one-ton shop hoist to lift it onto the tool box. Can't quite pick this guy up with my bare hands. As most of the Big Iron guys here will tell you, bigger is better. Mass really does make a difference, if you can afford or have the space for it. I have neither, and honestly, wouldn't begin to use the capability of a BP or a 14x40. But...having twice the weight/mass behind a 1/4" or 3/8" end mill makes a world of difference.

Advantages/disadvantages? I guess this boils down to opinion, but I'll list mine and you can decide for yourself if any of it is worth a hoot.  

LMS:

Small(er) footprint, yet capable of some very accurate work as long as you stay within it's intended work envelope.

At first I hated the rack gear on the Z-axis, as it can move on you while you're cutting if you are not careful. But after installing a 3-axis DRO and the Air Spring, that became more manageable. Now I have become accustomed to it and actually like being able to 'rapid traverse' the head up and down when I'm changing end mills or drill bits.

20 TPI leadscrews on X and Y axis. These allow for very small precise movements. Once the DRO was installed, I came to realize just how small/precise. Of course you have to crank your hand off to get from one side of the table to the other. Tradeoffs...  

PM25:

Primary advantage and principle reason I bought it is the increased table size and Y-axis travel. I will soon have need of doing some work on a rotary table and wanted a 6". This will fit SO much better on the PM's larger table.

Larger work envelope. While the LMS can do 'most' everything I need, it will be a little easier on the PM. My max work envelope is usually about 4" square, but can sometimes get to 6". 6" gets a little tough on the LMS with it's shorter Y-axis travel.

Power and mass. More is better. Even though I have no need or desire to bury a 1" end mill in a 12" square piece of 4140, I do appreciate the smoother cuts and less vibration I get with my 1/2" and smaller end mills. There are limits to what this machine can do, obviously, but for my pistolsmithing and other projects I am well within the capabilities of this machine as long as I don't get stupid. I knew I was borderline with the LMS, but didn't know about the PM/G0704 types at that time.

The PM has courser leadscrews, so real small movements are more Art than Science, but I am putting a DRO on so I will figure it out. I like having a leadscrew on the Z-axis from a control perspective, except when I need to rapid traverse. I have this vision of putting a stepper motor on it with a manual digital control wheel and a course and fine feed rate. Like my friend's CNC control. Maybe the guys in the CNC forum can help me figure out how to do this.

That's all I can think of at the moment. If you have any specific questions I will try to answer as best I can. I guess it really comes down to what you want to do and how much machine you have room for.

Bill


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## SENC (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks a lot, Bill.  I'm primarily a woodworker and make duck calls and such.  I've been doing a little "milling" on my drill press with an xy table... enough to convince me I can get better consistency if I mill more and cut less.  Thus my interest in a small mill is largely wood-driven, but if I'm going to invest in one I want to be able to learn metal machining to make small parts and jigs.  I'm trying to get some idea of too small/lightweigth vs too much, and your reply helped a lot.  I suspect either meet my immediate needs and the question is whether I'd grow out of the 3960... but I don't have a crystal ball!

I don't have much space, so one thing I've considered is whether having a milling machine would eliminate my need for my DP (a floor standing model).  The 3960 is too small for my largest drilling operation (1" drill 5"deep).  How well/poorly would the PM25 serve as a DP?


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## wrmiller (Dec 31, 2013)

The quill on the PM25 only travels a little over 2". For deep stuff like you're talking I'd just crank the Z-axis handwheel and lower the whole head.

You're talking a 1" wide and 5" deep hole in wood right? The max drill bit size on the PM25 is 25mm or 1", hence it's name. And that's for metal.

Cranking the Z-axis handle is not the same (not as fast) as yanking on a lever on a drill press. I guess it would depend on if your wood/workpiece can handle a drill bit coming down at a slower feed rate.

EDIT: Re-read your post. Not knowing exactly what you're doing and how, I might suggest keeping the floor standing DP. I don't have anything close to your needs and do the small stuff on the LMS.

Bill


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## Rbeckett (Dec 31, 2013)

wrmiller19 said:


> Thanks guys, info appreciated.
> 
> Oil change?? I thought these bf20 designs were a dry head?
> 
> Bill


Youre right I was thinking of a different machine when I wrote that.  But it is good to follow the manual for all required and recommended maintenance to keep it new as long as possible.  Good luck and Happy New Year!!!

Bob


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## SENC (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks, Bill... what I suspected, but having not used one thought it better to ask and be sure.  Back to my research and a decision.

One last question, since I'll have to learn how to set one of these up on my own.  Any input as to whether either would be simpler than the other for a newbie to set up, maintain, and learn on?


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## wrmiller (Dec 31, 2013)

SENC said:


> Thanks, Bill... what I suspected, but having not used one thought it better to ask and be sure.  Back to my research and a decision.
> 
> One last question, since I'll have to learn how to set one of these up on my own.  Any input as to whether either would be simpler than the other for a newbie to set up, maintain, and learn on?




They are basically the same design, with some different features. The PM has a tilt head for fancy work and a quill, albeit a short-throw one. The PM also has tapered gibbs which IMO are easier to adjust properly than the ones on the LMS.

The PM has a built-in RPM display. That's extra on the LMS. I would say that they are about the same level of quality, which is pretty decent for a import mill. You still need to clean off the packing grease and do some basic setup, but there are a lot of people here to help with that.

If you have the room, I suggest the PM, only because if you get started into metal working, it's a little better size-wise for some basic DIY projects. It's a lot more mill for not that much more money.

Let us know what you decide!  

Bill


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## SENC (Dec 31, 2013)

Will do, and thanks for letting me hijack your thread!


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## Stanshire (Jan 1, 2014)

New member chiming in here. I've been machining and making small engines for about 2 1/2 years and the PM25 was the first thing I bought.  A very nice machine and ran with virtually no issues. Matt is very helpful and I wish more vendors were like him. 
The two issues I had with the mill are easily fixed. The two-bolt (one pivot, one locking) system for the tilting head is, IMHO, not a good design. Search the web for the 3 bolt mod on the BF25, or even the Grizzly G0704 (same Weiss design, identical to the PM20). Huge difference.
Some folks, myself included, were replacing motor brushes every few months. Not confined to PM machines; Griz and BF 20/25 owners also. Not a big deal nor a big expense and Matt sent me spares. I think it has to do with the "quality control" of the brush spring. Takes about 2 minutes to replace.
Finally, with reasonable care, the PM stuff holds a pretty good chunk of value on the used market. I couldn't resist the Bridgeport so the PM went to a new home.


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## wrmiller (Jan 1, 2014)

Yea, the three bolt mod is already on my 'to do' list for this machine. I also ordered a couple of 36t stainless spur gears (thanks Hossmachine) to eliminate the plastic intermediate gear and will get some angular contact bearings for the spindle as the gear change will get the spindle RPM to ~4.5k. I may eventually make a belt drive conversion if I want >5k spindle RPM.

I have worked on a Sharp (BP clone) at my friend's shop and like it a lot, but one of those monsters won't fit in my little shop so this will have to do.

Enjoy your Big Iron.  

Bill


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## Senna (Jan 1, 2014)

Only you know your precise circumstances but as pointed out by Starlight_Tools in another thread a full-sized machine really doesn't take up a bunch more space than your PM25.


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## wrmiller (Jan 1, 2014)

Senna said:


> Only you know your precise circumstances but as pointed out by Starlight_Tools in another thread a full-sized machine really doesn't take up a bunch more space than your PM25.



My friends 9x48 takes considerably more 'working' space than my little PM25. Height, width, and depth wise. That and it requires 220 three-phase or an inverter. I'm also certain that I cannot move it by myself and wonder if the garage floor would support it. I don't have 220 and don't want to pay to have it wired, and I don't want to have to pay a rigger every time I have to move (which unfortunately, I have done way too much). And honestly, I don't have the space for it. I'd have to give up other tools just to put a machine in my garage that I wouldn't fully utilize. 

Also, I live in CO where good used machines appear to be few and far between. So I'd have to buy from somebody somewhere else, sight unseen (I can't just take off work a fly somewhere every time I see a machine advertised for sale somewhere), and hope that it isn't a worn out POS that will cost thousands to have scraped and rebuilt. I'm not interested in rebuilding a worn out machine, thanks. Fairly certain I can't get a BP clone, new, for what I paid for my PM.  

And really, not to belabor the point, but I have no need for a full-sized machine. Seriously. I do pistolsmithing and some little projects like the Bonelle TCG (I decided against the Quorn) that I will get started on this year. I also want to get more serious about clock making which requires small, fairly precise parts. Don't need a full-sized machine to do any of this. 

I appreciate you sentiment, seriously. I honestly believe that if I had a 20x20 shop that had the available power, and I needed that much machine, I'd figure out how to get it.

I'm just a tinkerer who needs some small machines to play with.  :allgood:

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 2, 2014)

Thanks again for all of your help, Bill.  I'm leaning towards a larger machine than a minimill.  Two questions - what made you choose a PM vs a comparable grizzly (g0704??)?  Also, did you consider the 3960's true big brother, the sx3?  If so, why did you opt for the model you chose?


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## wrmiller (Jan 2, 2014)

The PM25 was a hundred bucks more, shipped, than the G0704. The PM comes with upgraded KB electronics and according to Matt, goes through a different/better build line than some others. Can't personally vouch for the latter, but the fit and finish on this machine is pretty darn good. Pretty damn accurate too (you still have to clean all the packing grease off everything). While trying to decide which machine to get, Matt put up with all my email and phone questions and I found him a pleasure to chat with. He was very interested in my little SB 8k lathe, as I guess he is a SB dealer but has never see the little guy. Asked a bunch of questions about it and said he may get one to "check it out".

And finally, I'm pretty sure I can count on Matt to help out any way he can if something does go wrong. This counts Really Big in my book.  

I mentioned before that the machine I really wanted was the PM30MV-L with the bigger table, more mass, and more horsepower. But...I was worried that trying to put a 500 lb. machine on a Craftsman toolbox lower, even one rated to 1000 lbs, might be pushing it a bit. For my smaller 300 lb. mill, I've put a piece of 3/4" plywood on top of the tool box and am adding a piece of 3/8" thick steel plate between the mill and the plywood. Probably overkill for a little mill/drill, but that's just me. I'm an engineer, who tends to err on the side of caution, especially in areas outside my area of expertise. So shoot me...  

The final straw was that I was worried that I couldn't drag the PM30MV-L which is a 600+ lb. pallet up a fairly steep driveway (4' increase in a 15' driveway or thereabouts). If that happened, I'd have to leave it sitting on the sidewalk until I could get some tools and take it apart and carry the pieces into the garage. In the cold and snow. Wasn't interested in that scenario...

So basically I chickened out and got the 25. :whiteflag:

While waiting on the Santa/UPS backup, I've already done the tramming and three-bolt mods to the head and have installed two of the three mounting plates for my glass scales. The more time I spend playing with this machine, the more I think I did OK and won't be losing much if any capability for the size stuff I work on.

EDIT: Sorry, missed the question about the SX3. If I'm correct, that's the one on the Griz site with the 6x21 table and the Z-axis knob on the front of the base? If I'm thinking of the right one, I did look at it but discounted it because of not enough travel in Y and it doesn't have tapered gibs. That and the base and column looked more robust in the pics of the 25 vs. the SX3. But, I was just going by pictures. I could be completely off base on that one.

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks, Bill.  After a lot more reading and research, I'll be deciding btw the PM20 and 25 this weekend and planning to order Monday.  Going to spend the weekend reorging my shop and making a final decision on what (if anything) needs to go to make room.  Am sure I'll have some questions and need some assistance once it arrives.
Henry


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## wrmiller (Jan 3, 2014)

May I suggest a call Matt first to make sure he has the machine you want in stock? When I ordered mine, he still had quite a few in stock but you never know.

When you order, I'd be curious to know which one you get and why. Just to be nosy of course. 

As for help and setup, maybe we should start a new thread when you get your machine? And I'll be more than happy to help in any way I can.  

Not sure if you have any tooling, but if not, you may want to start thinking about this and putting together a list. Getting the machine is just the tip of the iceberg in this hobby we call home shop machining.

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 4, 2014)

I traded emails with Matt today and know they have 20s... have asked since whether 25s are also in stock.

For all of my current and immediately forseeable purposes, the smaller SX3 variants would serve me quite well.  I just don't need bigger.  However, once I really figured true cost for the 3960 with a z axis dro and tach and shipping, I'm at or over the PM20 shipped as currently priced and have a lighter, smaller unit with less capacity and travel.  The PM unit gives me some room to grow at only the cost of some floor space.

As to 20 v 25, it comes down to space and maneuverability.  My narrow shop is already a bit cramped (table saw, mitre station, wood lathe, grinder, dp, bandsaw, rollaround dust collector, benches) so I'll have to rearrange and, maybe, eliminate something.  Good chance I'll eliminate the permanent mitre station and just create a mitre station I can setup and breakdown as necessary.  I might have to limit myself to the 20 depending on "elbow room" and because the 35 lb savings might make future adjustments a hair easier.  Again, since I don't really NEED the extra size and juice of the PMs right now, I don't consider that a huge sacrifice.  Wish I could put the mill on wheels!

I do have some limited tooling already (end mills, setup blocks, clamps, vise, and measuring/setup stuff like a dial test indicator, machinist level and squares), but will need to order some collets and other items.  I'll be working on that list this weekend, too, so feel free to throw out any suggestions.  Again, I really appreciate your time and answersnto my questions... you've been a big help.


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## wrmiller (Jan 4, 2014)

Henry, you can put your mill on wheels!  

I don't remember exactly what they're called, but Grizzly has these adjustable machine stands that you put the mill's stand into. I looked at doing this but decided to put it on a tool box lower instead to get the machine up to a better height for me.

The 20 and 25 are the same  machine, you just give up a little table size with the 20. Either should do what you want to do.

Edit: I ordered Matt's R8 collet set along with my 25 and like the quality of these. FYI...

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 4, 2014)

Does anyone know offhand the footprint dimensions for the stand?  Couldn't find a spec sheet for the 20/25/30 on the pm website.


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## wrmiller (Jan 4, 2014)

I'll go measure mine in a bit. Gotta wake up first.  

Did you find the machine mounts I was talking about?

Edit: I found it.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/D2260A

My base is about 16.5" x 13.25" (odd measurements, probably metric). But the above mobile base was the one I was looking at.

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 4, 2014)

Thanks?  Got waylaid today so didn't get the reorg and planning I'd hoped.  I did check out that mobile base, as well as some made by HTC.  The only concern I have after thinking about that is leveling.  If I level the stand and tram the mill in one location, will I cause myself an issue when/if I move it?  Perhaps I'd be better off making something less calibrated, like my bandsaw or DP mobile and try to set up the mill stationary?  What do you think?  Much ado about nothing, or a real concern.  My shop floor is concrete and fairly smooth/level, but I'm sure it has variation.


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## wrmiller (Jan 4, 2014)

Hey Henry,

IMO, leveling a lathe or mill is no where near as important as making sure you do not induce twist or stress into a machine's frame by bolting it to an uneven surface. The Navy has been using machines on board ship that have never been level for more than an instant (with respect to earth's gravity well) but are well secured with no twist or induced stress.

My lathe sits on a tool box that is stable, and it has securing bolts that are barely snug as they are for keeping the machine from moving around, not for bolting the bed to a registration surface. Works very well and is quite accurate.

In the case of my mill, this is even more important as it carries more of it's weight higher/away from it's base than a lathe does and needs to be secured so it doesn't tip over. Safety first!  

I will have to level the mill's tool box because the floor where I need it to be is not even and only three wheels are in contact with the concrete at any point in time. This is not acceptable from a safety standpoint.

I've already trammed the mill, then today I loosely bolted it down to the 3/8ths plate and 3/4" plywood. I will level the tool box with a basic digital level and I bet the tram doesn't shift to any degree that I can measure or care about. I will be sure to let you know if it does.

I am not suggesting a course of action for you. I do believe that these machines should be as near level as possible if for no other reason than safety. If it is still a concern, then your suggestion of mounting the mill in a permanent position and making the DP or something else portable would be what I would do.

As you can tell, I'm uncomfortable with telling you that you have to do things a specific way, as we have enough of that on these internet boards. I'm just telling you what I did/do and why, and then you are free to process that information in the context of your specific needs. Or not.   :roflmao:

Hope I didn't confuse the issue for you.

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 4, 2014)

Not confusing at all... just trying to leverage the experience of someone whose been there/done that, and two minds are better than one.  Plus, I've been accused more than once of overthinking things.  I may put them all on mobile bases.  Ordering the HSC 2000 model via amazon... a bit better reviews, and will be easier to repeat height settings than with the screw foot on the grizzly/shop fox model.  Will let you know how it goes.


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## wrmiller (Jan 5, 2014)

Found a HTC 2000 mobile machine base. Is this the one you are getting? I saved it to my Amazon favorites as I may have use for that, thanks.  

Currently I'm embroiled in mounting the glass scales for my DRO on the 25. Getting the backing rails mounted is not that big a deal. But as my new shop has only been in existence for less than a year, I don't have the selection of material I had in my old shop yet, so fabricating the pieces for the read heads is basically cobble together something with what I have on hand (which is various small pieces of mostly aluminum at this point). It won't be pretty, but it will be functional.

I bought Chris's (LMS) 4" professional vise for my new machine and set it loose up on the table yesterday. Not a bad little vise for the money, and decent specs. I wanted a Glacern or Tormach but with the money I saved I will be able to buy other tools that I need. As I said, getting the machine is just the start. I figure that I'll have most of the basic tooling I need after spending about 2 times more than the cost of the machine itself. But my definition of 'basic' might be a bit more than what others would define it as.  :LOL:

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 5, 2014)

Sorry, typo... yes, the HTC2000 is what I've ordered.  Will keep you posted.

Re: dro, are you happy with the pre-installed quill-dro and only installing a 2-axis, or are you doing a full 3-axis?


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## wrmiller (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm doing a full 3-axis install as the quill will spend most of it's life fully retracted and locked when milling. I will use the quill dro when I am doing drilling and need that level of accuracy though.

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 6, 2014)

Decided on a 25.  Sent Matt a note tonight, hope to close the deal tomorrow then figure out how to schedule delivery when I can be here to accept and unload.


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## wrmiller (Jan 6, 2014)

That's cool!  :thumbsup:

We'll get you through the cleaning and setup in no time. It's a little big for making duck calls, but it will allow some serious experimentation into metal working.

Welcome to the family!  :drink2:

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 6, 2014)

Yep, definitely more than I need right now, but I figured out how to make it fit and the longer table will allow room for a couple setups that can be somewhat static and save me some time.  Should also give me more flexibility in making metal jigs, which will be a good way for me to get into and experiment with metal working.

Along those lines, where do you get your metal "blanks" and do you have any recommendations for basic stock?  Most used materials and sizes for those little parts projects that always arise?

In researching, I came across the G0704 website and watched the video on the 3 bolt mod... seemed pretty straightforward and simple, and I think you said you'd done it.  Worth it?  Did you make the tramming aids described?

Thanks again for sharing your insights and experiences... you helped me a lot.

Henry


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## wrmiller (Jan 7, 2014)

SENC said:


> Along those lines, where do you get your metal "blanks" and do you have any recommendations for basic stock?  Most used materials and sizes for those little parts projects that always arise?
> 
> www.OnlineMetals.com They have aluminum, steel, and brass 'starter packs' that I bought just to have various pieces of small stock on-hand for those little projects that come up. Then I buy other size material as the job requires. I also get some stock (search "steel or aluminum stock") on Ebay, and from Speedy Metals. These are all great ways for hobbyists like us to get small quantities of material.
> 
> ...



Heck, that's half the fun of hanging out here! The other half is learning new stuff.  :allgood:

Bill


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## SENC (Jan 7, 2014)

Wow, that's great!  What material did you use for the tramming aids?  Think that will be my first metal project!


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## wrmiller (Jan 7, 2014)

Used a mild steel scrap piece I had laying around for the tramming aids.

Bill


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