# Rhodes Shaper Rebuild



## tertiaryjim

Have been making some progress so it seemed time for a few pictures.
This is a excellent learning project for me and I hope it's of aid to others.
There's bound to be things I leave out which others might be interested in so please speak up.

Have tried electrolysis to retain as much metal as possible and it also removes the paint so a great deal of effort was saved instead of scraping paint.
There's information on other sites that explain the process far better than I could but will post some pics of my setup if your interested.
Here's a before and after of the V side of the table.




Same here showing the cross slide, vice, and clapper.



The vice has serious problems.
The screw was bent in multiple places and someone in the past filed on it trying to help but only made it worse.
I plan to remake it but have corrected the original enough to serve in the mean time.
May have to make a new nut as well.
The moveable jaw was only contacting the vice body in the center which put unwanted pressure on the guide for the chip guard.
This area isn't meant to take load and part of it has broken away.
Nothing I can do about the lost metal for now but I have blued the high spots on each part and scraped them to move the pressure area away from center.


This is a shot of the rocker arm. Note the set screw in the bottom of the arm.


The bronze bearing is worn beyond reasonable limits. Tried tapping it out without success so I cut a couple of reliefs to ease it's grip.



It drove out with a bit of pressure relieved.
There were two gib adjustment screws broken off in the main casting.


	

		
			
		

		
	
Fortunately, they turned rite out.
The gib that mounts  above them sticks out just a bit and when the lock nuts are tightened they catch the edge of the gib which bends the ends of the set screws.
The fix is simple. Just turn some shouldered lock nuts.



Have been working on the motor.
The motor lubrication and bearing setup has taken some research. I'll have to cover it in detail at a later time.
Got to catch up with my pics and will try to answer any questions that come up before moving on.


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

The pin that holds the clapper box together is very lightly tapered.
When I assembled it I tapped it in just a bit deep and the clapper wouldn't function easly till I knocked it back out some.
This is simply to show the direction its removed/inserted on the Rhodes shaper.



Here's a collection of parts.
At the top are the bolt and nut for the vice. I have to make new ones.
Will use 4140 but don't have a setup to harden or normalize large parts yet.
The center screw is the cross feed screw and the brass nut goes with it.
Will have to make a new brass nut as it's worn sloppy.
Will also make a test nut of aluminum just to spin down the screw to test that its good it's full length.
The arrow points out a small brass part I made today. 
It simply grips the feed rod and the old one was trashed over time.
The cross feed screw has a 10 pitch and the feed gear has 40 teeth so minimum feed is 0.0025"/stroke.
The ratchet spring was broken and will have to be replaced ( not pictured ).


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Got a good start on the new vise bolt.
Found I had a tool for OD 8-tpi RH Acme so didn't have to worry about that.
Don't have one for the ID so I'll soon be doing the math on clearance angles and grinding bits.
Well, got a couple ground for ID Acme 10-tpi but don't like to rob them and need to grind a bunch of tools just to keep ready in my tool library which is rather skimpy now.



Then a little closer.
	

		
			
		

		
	




Was very happy with my work until I looked closely at the pictures.
Found the back side or working side of the thread is rough ( gauld ) on the outer half of it's diameter.
OH NO Ruining such an easy thread and piece of 4140 is something that could send one to #$!!
My only excuse is that I had laser eye surgery tuesday and have trouble seeing up close.

Well I've made enough mess for one day. Better just stop and worry about it next day.



Today:

I lightly polished the thread and though it's not great I think it will be usable.
Don't have another piece of 4140 of the correct Dia. anyway.

Decided to walk away from my disappointment and take a look at other parts.


As you can see, the stud fits in a sleeve- which fits in the block- which rides in the slot of the arm.
Each has to have clearance and it's all gotta add up.
Surprisingly, the clearance between the block and arm is the tightest with 1.5 mills near each end and 2 mils in the center of the slot.
It.s probably been saved a lot of wear as it's enclosed and not as much dirt could get to it.

The mic isn't tight to the adjustable parallel. It's just laid there so others can see my preferred method to measure slots and keyways.
I remember someone recently asked what adjustable parallels were used for.

The other parts probably have more wear because of small surface areas and poor lubrication.
This train of parts seems to be able to move around a bit as total included clearance on the outer side is 8 mills and the inside is 7 mills.

Don't think I'll worry about these until I've seen what kind of finish can be produced.
Spent an hour or so lapping some acme threading bits. Not going to mess up another thread if I can help it.
 Gotta go finish my poor vise bolt and then grind some lathe and threading tools. 
Right and left hand as well as internal and external.
That should keep me busy for several days at least.


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## Dranreb

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Hi Jim, as a newby shaper owner I'm enjoying your rebuild, thanks for sharing it.

After a few hours tracking down the cause of an annoying loud clank from my Alba A1 shaper at longer length of strokes, I turned down the quite worn bull gear shaft and made new bushes thinking that would cure it.... no change! 

I then thought that the clearance between the block and the rocking arm at around 7-10 thou had to be the cause, I shimmed it by wrapping a strip of beer can around it with grease applied and damn it the clank was still there. 

There is no apparent adjustment for the backlash in the gears but by careful tapping the bull gear support casting with a soft hammer while the bolts where just pinched up I got the gears to mesh better and have got rid of the clank altogether. Your bull gear bearing is fixed but it looks like you may be able to use the same trick but on the other gear shaft if necessary.

What I'm trying to say is that the clearance of the sliding block does not seem to have much effect on the smooth running of the shaper except on the very longest stroke, and if it's noisy at that, a thicker oil (or grease) will most likely take up the slack, so you may be able to save a lot of time by assembling it and trying it out before attending to the apparent slack in the block, that part can easily removed and done later if needed.

Just my thoughts, 

Bernard


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## GK1918

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

You are doing al right son  one step at a time.    trust me


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Danreb
Interesting that you had such a difficult to find clank.
I'll be putting in all new bushings so that won't be a problem.

The rhodes shaper has beveled gears.
The pinion or 13 tooth gear which drives the bull has it's teeth angled to push the bull onto its drive shaft.
It has a thrust bearing on the other end of the shaft and the clearance is set by the width of the belt cone and and handwheel hub.

Since the bull gear is thrust towards its shaft it helps to keep it from working off the shaft ( the bull just mounts to the shaft with a light interference fit)  and has a thrust bearing behind the bull to carry the load.

I must wander if there is too much clearance for one of your thrust bearings and the shaft is slapping back n forth.
This could cause the bull to work loose if your machine is set up the same.

GK1918
Seems the days when I could do three things at the same time are over.
Will just take it a step at a time and not be too upset if it seems there's not much done at days end.


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Out of curiosity I decided to check a couple things out, just for future planing.
Have already done a little flat scraping on the vice to take pressure off the top center area which shouldn't bear load. More to do there to get it flat and will also have to scrape the bottom a bit.


Took the round graduated base and set it on the surface plate and it rocked!
Didn't bother checking the other side as it's gotta be worked on anyway and I can only do one side at a time.


The table has yet to be blue checked but it seems to me that all surfaces should be flat. Will deal with the table later.

Was also curious about the condition of the main body of the shaper. 
What wear is present on the ways for the ram?
I measured down from the rails to the ways using a depth mic.
Only wrote the last few digits and behind the decimal are tenths. 


There's several thousanths variance on each side and one way is several thousanths lower than the other way?????? 
I remember that the top gibs were shim'd and only three shims came out of the two sides.
Seems one side ran with 0.009" and the other 0.012". How very strange!
Judging by the wear pattern, it's been run this way since it was last scraped which possibly was done by MR. Rhodes himself. Well, who knows?
Will have to determine if the ways are cocked or if its the rails.

The rails ( as I call them ) are the raised, hand scraped areas either side of the ways.
The top gibs are shimmed so the ram has oil clearance or at least so there's no interference  and bolted down on the rails. That's why the rails have to be flat and true.

At any rate I'll have to remove at least 0.003" on one way to true things up and probably a lot more.

 The rails are part of my reference and I'll not need to touch them. That could be a disaster.


Next question on my mind is how square are the rails to the front vertical ways. You can flip that question around if ya like as it works both ways.



I set the body on the rock with the vertical ways down.
Had a hard time keeping things clean as the wind keeps gusting up dust n grit out here. Not certain if this dust is from Utah or Arizona. 

When I moved the straight edge into contact of one rail, it touched at the top and left a slim line of light which looked to be a thousanth or less at the bottom.
The rails are two raised areas for each side where the top gibs mount and they remind me of RR tracks, hence the name.
So I checked each one to the straight edge and all of them were open at the bottom.
Now that would aim the ram down, but only a little bit. A 0.0015" feeler wouldn't fit the bottom gap on any of them.

Had to think on it for a few but it soon made sense.
The ram can't run metal to metal. It has to have room to move and for oil to coat each surface.
That clearance will let the ram rise up as it extends because the pressure from the cut tries to push the ram up. If you've not used too much back rake in the tool.
So they gave it just a touch of cant or angle down. But how do I measure the cant or gap?

I placed a 0.001 shim at the bottom of the gap and eased the straightedge up till it captured the shim. AHA!
The straight edge now seemed to touch at the top and bottom.
Well, that's with the shim captured and just eyeballing the top with a flashlight behind the straightedge.
Three of the raised rail areas captured the shim but one must be a couple tenths out. Not a big concern at this time.

Next check'd how thick the ram ways are.
They've worn a bit funny and tapered because it was shimmed wrong or the ways in the body were scraped wrong, but the ram ways are, were, basically the same thickness.

The top ways and the ram seem to be a bit of a mess!
Why would they have constructed it with one way 0.003" lower than the other way and shorted a shim?
Now it's all worn kinda strange and I'm certain that some crap for brains, 85 year old apprentice is laughing.

Won't understand it better until I can blue the components but that's gonna be awhile.
Plenty of other things to do first.


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## mcostello

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Here are some pics of my Rhoades shaper. Nothing rebuilt. The electric motor came from a worn out Atlas drill press, made a new shaft for it. The large v belt pulley was free from a scrap pile. I made the flat belt drive pulley from scrap, and I was a belt fabricator in another life so the belt was made from a drop. Bought the shaper for $100 and have only paint as additional cost. Would like a vertical shaping head.


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## GK1918

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

thats good, that will work= lets make chips  now=  or we will have a shaper chip contest like adam is doing   ....samuel    

oh lets take a .500 cut? I can   good job son...............

samuel


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

mcostello
That's a sweet looking machine and it's sweeter still that you have it working with so little invested.
Nice way to scrounge and that's good work on the secondary shaft and flat sheaves. Did you use bronze or roller bearings for the shaft?
Does it cut well and leave a good finish?



samuel
My idea of a contest to see who can produce the flattest most mirror like finish or the truest dovetail, or best setup.
I'm not the guy who says " Watch this " as they head into uncalculated disaster.
My biggest disaster lately is buying a shaper that needs a complete rebuild. Think I can limp on home with that one. :roflmao:


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## itsme_Bernie

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Wow!  Love this thread!  Nice shaper, and nice work!

Bernie


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Thanks Bernie!

Though my scraping is still pretty bad, I figured a flat surface scrape on the graduated vice base was something I could reasonably handle.
Rather than indicate it on the lathe to true the first surface I decided to see how much effort it would take to just scrape that one flat.

Got it within a couple tenths but that was just too much effort.  Had tried doing much of it with my flat pull scraper.
That scraper is is generation one and I'm thinking on how I want to make gen II as it's not very good.

With one side now flat I put it on the rock and the indicator said the second side was 0.0027" out.
Put it on the lathe and faced it. Still had several tenths to clean up.
There's a few small spots where I gouged too deep and they indicate 2 to 2.5 tenths but they are very small and not by the bolt holes so I'm discounting them.


	

		
			
		

		
	
 0.0001 was the final reading on this 6" circle.
That was a lot of work and I'll use the machine tools to do most of it next time as well as make better use of the scrapers.

Checked the bottom side of the vice. The top isn't finished but its close enough that the vice didn't rock for this check


1.2 mills to true it up.
Think I'll take a brake from scraping and work on other things for a bit.


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## mcostello

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

I used scrounged ( naturally) pillow block bearings. It cuts nicely and gives an excellent finish. Accuracy is a little off as I get about .002-.003 taper front to back in about 3". Don't anticipate making it better. Serial number is 830 which seems to predate 1916. 1/2 HP X 40 rpm = 800 some foot Lbs of torque, I run the belt about 1/2 loose.


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## GK1918

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Oh boy, Jim I failed to see or read if yours has gibs,  I see your post #7 take an average and dont discount cheating, using valve
grinding compound ( to flaten it out) some shapers even use paper for shims, these are pretty well forgiving, tight- not too tight on the ram. 
then after all said, try it, tweek it. My scotch yoke block was 'a little thin' for my liking so I milled a little and machined wear plates.
so I now am tottally silent.  And as far as a contest, its all in the grinding and honing.  I can do a mirror.  didnt come over nite either. 
clean that valve compound hospitol clean - check clearance- remove shims as nes sah seary. (cant spell my way from a paper bag)

rethinking this It cant be bad I think it needs a little tlc..........
samuel


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Theres a lot of work, scraping and painting n such before mine will run.
Have been thinking about counting the number of parts that compose this machine since its in parts.
There's more than I had expected.
Plan to break it in nice and the tweeking will be part of the fun.
Am surprised to find some components are so far from true and wander how many other machines out there are the same.


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## Chester

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

I have two Rhodes shapers, one I don't need. It's a bench top, no large base but with the mounting base to a bench. Needs a pulley system and motor, it does have a vice. If you interested, there are picture on this site under Other brand of machinery, foot power lathe Carroll Jamieson. If you want to restored it, I would trade for almost anything. Have to want to restore it, in good shape for a 90 plus year old machine. I live in Pittsburgh area.


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## GK1918

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*



itsme_Bernie said:


> Wow!  Love this thread!  Nice shaper, and nice work!
> 
> Bernie


 

Need new vidios Bernie????????????????


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Chester
Thanks for the offer. I would like to have it, especially as I could put what I'm learning into it and learn more from it.
Trouble is, shipping would probably be way too high.  Too bad it won't fit in one of those USPS boxes that seem to have no weight limit.
I will try to get an idea of what shipping would be. Seems the machine you have with the foot probably weighs 325 lbs but thats my guess.

Looked at your lathe project while I was in the thread. What a neat machine.
Those sheave and leg castings are beautiful. A great piece of history there.


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## Chester

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Wow, you want to restore it that much, it your. Maybe some people on this site can help you get across country?


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Truck lines require more information than I have to get a good estimate.
I've noted that companies that ship often could get it done for around $120 but that probably won't apply to the individual.
UPS could do it but that would cost more like 180 to 220 bucks and it would be best to break it down into three packages for handling.

Cost of moving things across the country really increases the overall price but not the value.
If I'm looking to get something heavy I try to get it at a retail that has regular shipping or Enco's free shipping days.
Looks like shipping is just too expensive.
Thanks for the offer.


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Got to true the vice up.
The working face is close enough though I'll be rechecking everything later.
Started on the bottom of the vice. I already posted a pic showing it was high on one end.
Here's how it blued.


	

		
			
		

		
	
The high end is the slotted one.
To true it up, the high area needs to be reduced and the other end should roll in for a better blue. Plus, I'm checking it with the indicator to avoid rolling it side to side.


	

		
			
		

		
	
A bit of improvement.


	

		
			
		

		
	
A bit more.
You can see the mounting holes and lines where the base ring bolts up. 
I got further along with this than the pics show.
Had to stop as I had some windows open and those high winds came back. 
Found grit was landing on the plate and I couldn't keep it clean.

Checked out some of the bearing surface on top of the body casting.
Needed to know what I could use for a reference for the offside vertical face that the ram runs against.
Had to use a dry stone and lightly check for burrs.


Here come those adjustable parallels again.


Unfortunately, I don't have a three to four inch mic. Have to make due with dial calipers.
I have seen inspectors check parts with calipers and repeatedly read them to the nearest tenth. That was in a controlled environment with all conditions being perfect and with parts that required close tolerance, they used a mic.
So check the calibration of those calipers before each use and once you get a feel for them you should be able to read between the lines for readings within a couple of tents.
Of course a mic would be much better.


	

		
			
		

		
	
Here, the outside end of the parallels will easly pick up while the inside stays lightly snug. Shows these ways are belled to the outside.

Here's how I stood the parallels to take readings. If they are properly set and the surfaces are true, you'll get them squarely set but I also checked with a square.


After checking both ends and the middle area, I decided the side opposite or, where the gib rests, could be used as a standard to keep the working side parallel.

Measuring down to the horizontal ways can be done this way while roughing in.



As it gets close, this is a better way to measure.


	

		
			
		

		
	
A parallel spanning both sides to measure from.
Edit: Thought I ought to add that the final surface has to be completed using a master. In this case, that will be the ram after it's scraped in.
All this measuring just gets me two bearing areas that are fairly true to each other and flat so the blue will go faster.


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## Chester

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*



tertiaryjim said:


> Truck lines require more information than I have to get a good estimate.
> I've noted that companies that ship often could get it done for around $120 but that probably won't apply to the individual.
> UPS could do it but that would cost more like 180 to 220 bucks and it would be best to break it down into three packages for handling.
> 
> Cost of moving things across the country really increases the overall price but not the value.
> If I'm looking to get something heavy I try to get it at a retail that has regular shipping or Enco's free shipping days.
> Looks like shipping is just too expensive.
> Thanks for the offer.


  I have agree, maybe some people on this site could you in getting closer. I would think that is your hope. Chester.


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

It would be great if some one was making such a trip anyway and could handle it. I would gladly pay $100 bucks and buy em a meal. There's usually a bed and clean bath here. Hunting season can be kinda full but not always.
I live on the edge of nowhere in SW Colorado. Gotta drive 90 miles to see a stop lite.
Can't see it as likely that anyone is going to be crossing the country and pass very close to me.
I've been watching the local sales stuff just hoping some gems will turn up at a reasonable price.

Have passed up a few lathes because they were asking too much but there's not a lot of choices out this way and you have to drive at least 100 miles one way to see those.
One just has to learn to watch and wait.


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Looking for opinions and information on bearing surfaces.

This is a closeup of the bearing surface for the ram.


	

		
			
		

		
	
It looks like a form of flaking to me but it has depth and can be felt running my fingers over it even though it's worn.

A bigger surprise to me is that the rams surface that slides over it also had the same flaked pattern.
I thought two sliding surfaces only needed one scraped for oil distribution.

Perhaps the pattern used provided a large bearing surface with reduced oil area so both surfaces so treated gave the largest acting bearing surface and good oiling.
Just wanted to know if someone could tell me how this pattern was produced and what you think about scaping both surfaces.


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Been awhile since I updated the post so felt I should show a bit of progress.
Have yet to purchase a good roller for spreading blue but used a salvaged roller from a bad printer to make one.
The rubber roller sections were only 1.4 inches wide so I just cut one off and drilled n bent a quick handle.


	

		
			
		

		
	
This shows the roller and my first gen pull scraper.
The roller works great and allows me to evenly spread a very thin layer of blue for finish scraping.
I have to be very careful with this scraper as the attach point for the handle is too high and when trying to pull too much material or when I'm tired I can cause it to roll and gouge.
Will have to make a better one soon.

The tools are sitting on a 4" x 6" angle block which I'm scraping in.
The large surfaces are fairly well done.
When scraping the 4" x 6" flat I had some trouble as it has so much surface area that it wanted to float on the plate long before it was done.
As the surfaces get close to flat, the blue must be spread extra thin to get a good reading. So thin that it's hard to see on the part and the part has to sit long enough to settle onto the surface plate.
When I then moved the angle block to blue the high points, it would float again.


	

		
			
		

		
	
Two of the sides are getting close. I can still see some light in small gaps when placing them against the straight edge.
If the large flat areas are truly flat and at 90deg to each other and the sides are truly 90deg to both of the flats, then they will measure the same, side to side, at all points.
I  took a few minutes to measure the sides and found that they are within a half thousanths.
That error will get better before I'm done.

Am building a table to hold the surface plate, provide a solid area to hold parts being scraped, and store materials.


	

		
			
		

		
	
Must admit that I'm one of those people who shouldn't be allowed around wood so please don't be too critical.
Will make drawers and use 100# slides. It will have an area to store material up to 3ft long as well.
The table top will overhang so it provides a good area to clamp parts and I can screw blocks n jigs to the table as needed. 


	

		
			
		

		
	
I scraped the vice in and improved my scraping on the graduated ring that mounts to the bottom of the vise.
The bolt heads bound in the plate so I turned them down just a bit .
When bolted together, the error is about 0.0001" .
Recon that will do.


	

		
			
		

		
	
After machining the flats and 60deg angle on my 26" long straight edge, I found it to be too heavy to comfortably handle. 
The flats were machined close enough that a 1.5 mill feeler gauge wouldn't fit under them when I laid it on the surface plate.
After removing material to lighten it, it warped a bit but with my cheapo equipment I  am just scraping rather than trying to machine it again.


	

		
			
		

		
	
Got a ways to go on the 60deg face and am still roughing the flats.
Have put some scratches on the flats trying to scape too deep and found my scraper is slightly magnetic so I will have to get a de-magnatizer.
All part of the learning experience.


	

		
			
		

		
	
The horizontal ways have been rough scraped within a half thousant's.
The side gib will need to be replaced and it shows that the contact area is rather low.
Am considering adding more adjusting screws to keep a nice even pressure on the full length of the gib.


	

		
			
		

		
	
As the cross slide nut is worn I made a tight aluminum nut to check the cross slide screw.
The screw is 9/16"- 10tpi acme. Who would make such a small dia. acme thread?
Had to turn down a boring bar and make a really short threading tool to git er done.
The screw is worn and will have to be replaced but to thread a new one I'll have to have a follow rest, which I don't.

Looks as though I gotta build a follow rest but other projects must be completed first so for now I'll just machine a new nut thats as tight as possible and use the screw as is.
When I do make a new screw I'll try pre-hard 4140 and will alter the cross slide for a 5/8" diameter screw.
Seems to be just enough clearance to get away with it except the mount hole on the right will have to be opened up to accept the 5/8" bolt.
That hole is just a bit loose now so a larger dia. bolt would let me correct that as well.

The blue on the ways is the contact area so will have to scrape them in. I used a nice thick layer of blue too.
Seems almost every surface on this machine must be scraped.
Recon thats good practice.


	

		
			
		

		
	
Nothing to do with metalwork but another project has been installing a pellet stove and re-building the fireplace.
The original fireplace was really plain and crappy looking and the mantle was so low that I couldn't open the hopper all the way to fill the stove with pellets.
I had some guests during elk hunting season last year and got them to carry in the stove. Let the healthy young guys do the heavy work.
The basket weave pattern isn't hard to make and hides a lot of my crappy wood working.
I raised the mantle a foot for clearance. 
Still a lot of work to do on it.


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*

Was continuing to scrape in parts and when I had to add more blue to the plate I got  it a bit thicker than wanted.
Rather than wiping the extra off I decided to blue the table.


	

		
			
		

		
	
This is what I found.
This surface mounts to the cross-slide and must be flat to use as a master to blue in the mating part.


	

		
			
		

		
	
This shows the table mounting surface, after a number of rounds of scraping, and it's mating part.
I started out scraping lightly but soon realized how far this has yet to go.
The other three table surfaces blued even worse and are so far out of square that they will have to be planed after the machine has been run in.
Judging from the surface quality and by how far out of square the table faces are, I think they were planed on the machine when it was worn and badly adjusted.

Still have a long way to go to complete my 60deg dovetail straightedge.
Started making it so I can scrape in my mill/drill ways and had planned to use it on the shaper.
After looking at the dovetail of the shaper, I thought to check that the straightedge would fit it.
Found that the shaper has a different angle and there's not enough clearance to cock the straightedge in for a blue check.
 Seems scraping another straightedge is in my future.


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## tertiaryjim

*Re: Rhodes Shaper*




Here's the clamps I made to machine the 60deg angle for my straightedge.
One of those things I saw a picture of many years ago and said " That's neat! I gotta remember that."
Strange thing is, I did remember!

The shaper dovetail is 50deg and the straightedge will have to be 16" long.
May have to make it 3/4" thick which, if I squared and scraped the back edge, would make it useful for bluing in another cross-slide surface.
Not certain how to keep it stable if that thin.
Will take a closer look at it's design in the future.
Got plenty to keep busy with for some time.


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## RandyM

Jim, hope ya don't mind me adding "Rebuild" to your title? I just think more people will tune in. I had been just passing this thread by and popped in to see what is all about. Great stuff, keep it coming.


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## tertiaryjim

Oh! Thats where that came from.
The title is better now. 
Thanks Randy.


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## tertiaryjim

Got the blue so thin on the surface plate I can get very little on my finger when rubbing it across the plate.
Am surprised that the blue shows so well in the picture.
It was more clear when carried into direct sunlight but the camera sees it much better than my eyes.
Will go a few more rounds lightly scraping some high spots and then start the mating part.
Perhaps the table is picking up the blue so well because it wants to wring to the surface plate after it settles.



	

		
			
		

		
	
Found heavy contact on the left and right sides.
The compass is pictured on the left.
Not wanting to scrape into the compass so I tried to tilt the part a bit by scraping deeper on the right side but the boss is holding it.
Cant have pressure on the boss and rabbit fit.
Checked again that the table mounting surface was square to the T-Slots. That looked good but I'm trying to think how I can better check it.
Will also need to measure how thick the casting is from this face to the back face. Well, I spose I shoulda done that before starting to scrape.



	

		
			
		

		
	
Got a good start scraping the flat ways.
I first set it up on the surface plate and made checks for square to these faces.
They were setup to hold the outside end of the table up just a bit. Much as the mill knees are.
In this case, I think the ram will have just a little climb as it reaches out so the table is lifted on the outside to compensate.
The checks were done in 6 areas and I got 6 readings.
When sliding the straight edge against the face the gap was too small to get a feeler gauge in.
So, I trapped a 1 mill thick piece of shim stock between the straight edge and the face which let me use feeler gauges to check the gap at the top.
I could get a 1.5 mill gauge in at three points and a 2 mill gauge in at one point.
Two points wouldent allow the 1.5 mill gauge but a gap could be seen.

The clearance for the ram is set using shim stock which means it probably can set it to 1/2 mill or closer.
It has to have some room to move and for lubrication to travel but I'm not certain what it should be.
Even at 1/2 mill, I think the ram would lift less than that as it's trapped in such a long guide so I plan to go with 1/2 mill per ft on the ways.

After getting the face of the ways scraped close I found they bowed out and had to correct.
Then checked for the taper and found it was 1.5 mill per ft. 
Am trying it again as I really want that 1/2 mill per ft.

At this point I've got many hours of scraping to do as well as build a 50 deg straight edge.
Will have to build 50 deg clamps to machine the angle.
Also have other projects going.
Better get back to it.


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## HMF

Fabulous restoration so far, please keep us updated!


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## Kevinb71

Thanks for posting all this. There is a lot of information to absorb here for future projects.


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## tertiaryjim

Nels, Kevin
Thank you!
With all the scraping to be done it's going to be slow but I'll add updates and try to include information that might help others doing similar work.


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## oldmasheentuls

Wow, This is a great thread... I recently acquired a slotting head for my early Rhodes Shaper, this thread will definitely help with getting the head tuned up... Thanks for such a detailed report.

Ray


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## tertiaryjim

An Apology
Sorry to have let this project go for so long.
Was trying a new medication which the Dr. insisted I stay on for a long duration to " Give it a chance ".
Med didn't work for me and I've been physically unable to continue working on the shaper.
Hope to be back at it in the next few weeks and will report on my progress.

Was working on the 60deg straight edge and have completed the rough-in scraping.
Need the 60deg straight edge to true up my little mill drill and the cross-slide on the lathe.
Will next have to do the fine scraping to give it smooth flat faces.
Am hoping it can be used to true up the the 50deg dovetail on the shaper but clearance is tight.
Really don't want to have to machine and scrape a 50deg straightedge or pay the cost of materials.

Also had completed the rough-in scraping of several faces of the shaper.
Will later work to get about 50% to 60% contact on those surfaces.
The factory scraped both sides of the mating-sliding faces to hold oil and the best information I've found says that 50% to 60% contact would work best.
All my checks show that the cast components warped after the factory scraped them in or, they didn't do a good job in the first place.

Spent some time studying how the sliding surfaces interacted and were gibed.
Seems to me that they did some things the hard way.
Also tried some variations of scrapers, all home made, to find the best designs for scraping various surfaces.
Much more work and testing needs to be done on that so it will be awhile before I post it.
Will post pictures and explanations when I can get back on the project.


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## HMF

Good to see you back.


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## Kevinb71

Good to hear things are looking up for you. Please post some pics of the scraping of the dovetails if you get a chance. That has always seemed like it would be the hard part of a project like yours. Maybe not!


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## tertiaryjim

Its good to be back but don't know what the Dr. will want to try next.
Hope it doesn't knock me on my arse.

The longest 50deg dovetail needs a strait edge about 17" long.
I hope to do it with the back side of the 60deg straight edge, due to clearance problems, and maintain the flat and angle of the current face.
Then just scape the shorter mating surface to match. Got to keep it all square to the travel as well.

Will probably have to make a 50deg dovetail about 12" long to complete the project.
The little mill-drill I have has crappy, loose dovetails and gibb's which is why I started the 26" long 60deg straight edge.
Tightened the Mill-drill gibbs as much as possible and was careful while machining the straight edge but had to scape a lot of cast iron to get it close.
The mill-drill is loose and the dovetails n gib angles don't match. Proudly made in China.
I really need to correct the mill-drill to make machining a 50deg dovetail easy  and will have to make or modify clamps to hold the cast iron for machining.

So, to make a 50deg dovetail I really need to finish my long 60deg straight edge and use it to scrape the mill in and then finish the new gibbs, build clamps to hold the cast iron at 50deg for machining, then
just scape everything I can reach or find and that will put me back on track.
Was bummed to find they had used 50deg on the shaper. Oh-Well It's a learning experience. Far better than sitting on my back-side.


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## Karl_T

Super late to this thread...

I have a Rhodes slotter. Looks like yours but vertical. Maybe just a few extra parts???

Do you happen to know?

Karl


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## tertiaryjim

Karl
Sorry to take so long to reply.
I don't have any information on the vertical slotter  and wander if you have a regular shaper with the vertical slotting attachment installed.
A picture would be great!
I did find a lot of information on the 8" shaper with the vertical attachment ....

Metal shaper column 46
Kay fishers metal shaper columns
Metal shaper literature

There might be another but gotta find it.
A lot can be found with a search.


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## Andre

Your resto looks real good. One thing I did notice though, I think your using way to much blue when scraping. When applying blue you should still be able to see your surface plate clearly, and the layer should be theoretically 20 millionths thick. More blue makes the work go faster but you really want to get that blue thin for final finishing.


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## Karl_T

tertiaryjim said:


> Karl
> Sorry to take so long to reply.
> I don't have any information on the vertical slotter  and wander if you have a regular shaper with the vertical slotting attachment installed.
> A picture would be great!
> I did find a lot of information on the 8" shaper with the vertical attachment ....
> 
> Metal shaper column 46
> Kay fishers metal shaper columns
> Metal shaper literature
> 
> There might be another but gotta find it.
> A lot can be found with a search.



I'll bet its just an attachment. I'll get a pic.


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## tertiaryjim

Andre
Some of these surfaces are so far out that a very heavy coat of blue only shows in two or three small spots.
As I get closer to flat, the blue has to be thinned till the plate is clearly seen through it but each check uses blue and helps to thin the film of blue on the plate.
I start the bad surfaces and work multiple parts till they are closer to flat which thins the blue each check.
If the blue and plate are still clean I will continue to use it, thinning as needed.
Getting a fresh coat of blue thin enough for final finish work is difficult.
I've found that a few drops of light weight oil can help to thin and spread it and a roller is great, but when right for those final checks it's so thin that a paper towel rubbed
across it will hardly show any blue yet the scrapped surfaces will still pick it up.
It's a learning process for me and the information  and suggestions that others have posted have been a great help.
Thanks for looking and your suggestion.


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## tertiaryjim

Been trying to do a bit of scraping of late but the joints just aren't up to it. Perhaps soon!

Did find a machine on craigs list that I couldn't pass up.
Had already pulled the Sabina electronic drive speed before remembering to take a pic.
The clamp handle fell off on the last part of my trip but landed in the truck bed.



It's a May Tool CO. 42v 3/4 circle cutter from the late 70s or perhaps 80s.
Will cut 16 gauge mild steel circles up to 48" and has a 3/4 HP motor.
It's been stored outside and unused/unloved for some time.
The motor and speed drive work.
The seller plugged it in to show me but with all the dust n grit that had to be in it I didn't want it run much.
Will have to sharpen or replace the cutter and clean it up before I know what bearings need replacement.
There's the standard rust problems to deal with.
May also have to add some minor upgrades.
The legs aren't factory and though the machine base was drilled for bolting them on the person who added them welded em in place.

The Sabina adjustable speed drive has a schematic for 1/4 to 1 1/2 HP drives if anyone would like it posted.
I've not checked the motor tag but it looks like it's a DC motor.
Can't even work on my current long list of projects so of course I needed another.....


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## tertiaryjim

Been watching Craigs list for goodies.
This came up and was just a bit over 110 miles away. Most anything is that far from where I live so I jumped on it.


Looks as though it might be in the original color, Light Blue-Grey.
It fit in the 6 foot truck bed with just a few inches to spare and that was with the spindal lowered.
The four step sheave on the right mounts to the base. Belt is three inches wide.
Was intrigued that it has power feed. This feature has been disconnected and no belt is with it but all parts are still mounted and it should be easy to get it working.
The spindal is raised/lowered with a small hand wheel which is geared fairly low. Nice for infeed but slow when setting up.
The table is raised/lowered with the screw running down the side of the casting. It's missing the handle.


Didn't think to turn the table over for this pic but its in fair condition.


Will have to go through the spindal and replace some or perhaps all the bushings. Still, its fairly tight with little movement on any of the shafts. It could be cleaned up and used without any major work and still out-preform most China machines.


PAT'D   OCT 16  1900


B. F. BARNES CO 
Haven't gotten this beast unloaded yet and will have to research it's its history.
I suspect the fork , beside my boot, was to operate a clutch so the machine could sit idle while the overhead belt line was turning.
Most of those components have been removed and it was converted to motor drive.


This ONE HP motor is several times the size of a modern motor. It has bronze bushings and felt wicks.
It drives the 3" wide belt and mounts side by side with the sheave set on  the base of the stand.

This is project number 5 on my list so it might be a couple of years before I start the rebuild.
Was really happy to find such a nice piece of Americana iron.


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## Karl_T

I love the old Camel Back drill presses. My father has one.


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## tertiaryjim

Karl_T said:


> I love the old Camel Back drill presses. My father has one.


I'm real happy to have this one. Been looking for more than a year and all I've seen were at least 350 miles away and very expensive.

Pulled the top drive shaft and found babbitt was sweated in for bearings. I had expected bronze bushings.
Lots of play in the bearing under the belt load. Will have to check that the shaft is square to the spindle or if there's enough adjustment that I can scrape it in. Also need to scrape the bearing surface to get out the high silica sand inbeded into it.
The babbitt layer seems pretty thick.
Have handled a lot of babbitt bearings. Mostly on turbines and pumps. 
But, have never sweated it into a bearing and these strong backs are cast with the frame.
There were thick gaskets under the caps and they have the largest oil holes ever seen. Perhaps oil drip tubes were once installed there.


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