# Has anyone had the chance to compare these brands, Acra, Kent USA, Precision Matthews



## Steve R (Aug 16, 2020)

I'm looking at getting a lathe and a mill. Looking at the Acra 1440TE, PM 1440TL and Kent RML1440. I have visited a tech school 2 weeks ago (4.5 hours one way) that had 4 used and 3 new ACRA 1440TE lathes in their shop. So I have actually got to see them. The tech school liked them so much they got rid of the older non Acra machines and went with Acra to replace them and add to their current inventory. Acra and Kent I believe are 1 year warranty, PM is 5 year. I have not seen any Precision Matthew (PM) equipment to know how they compare. I have a dealer 4 hours the other direction that sells Acra but also sell Kent machines. He uses Kent in his own shop and prefers them. I have not gotten to go that way yet but would like to in a couple weeks. Acra & PM are very close in price, have not gotten a price on Kent. I only have single phase so would have to go with converter. I believe the Kent is a VFD lathe.

The tech school had some Acer and Acra mills, they didn't really seem fond of the Acer but liked the Acra. The Acra is not the model# I was looking at but I liked how it seemed to work. I,m looking at the LCM42 or LCM50, not much difference in price and they have the round Bridgeport style head. The Acra weys and table are scraped. The PM version would be the 1050TS/TV, probably the TV 1ph or TS 3 ph and VFD converter depending on which one in stock. It says their ways are ground but nothing on scraping. Not sure if that would make much difference.

I have been looking at/for the used old US iron but not much around close and in good shape so not much interested in "be patient and wait" I have some projects I would like to get started on.

Anyone one have some insight willing to share.


----------



## Bob Korves (Aug 16, 2020)

I have had a Kent KLS-1340a for close to 10 years, and it has been fine.  I have had no issues that I have not been able to address satisfactorily myself.  Still, these are all Chinese lathes, and you are likely to find issues with all of them.  The considerably lower prices compared to American and European lathes are made possible by paying their workers less, and by cutting corners where possible without being obvious.  In my case, as a hobbyist, it made sense to me getting the Kent lathe, lightly used when I got it.


----------



## Steve R (Aug 16, 2020)

All of the lathes and mill models listed above are made in Taiwan and not China.


----------



## Larry$ (Aug 17, 2020)

Given a choice I would go with a Taiwanese machine over a Mainland China one. Next thing to consider is dealer/importer support. I've only bought one new machine and it was from Quality. It is a PM1440HD, Chinese made. Decent but not premium. Excellent support. Some of the Precision Mathews machines come from Taiwan. As to whether the increased price is worth it for hobby use, your call. I've had my lathe for 4 years. The price has risen considerably in that time. The number of accessories included has been reduced to keep the price from looking too high. My lathe is 3 phase because I've had it in my production plant where everything is 3 phase. Greatly prefer 3 phase but soon I will be moving all my stuff to a home shop, Will install a phase converter. Probably make it myself, have done that before.

My mill is a Jet 9 x 49,  (Taiwan) bought very used! Good enough for what I do. As you've heard, the equipment is about 1/2 the cost. By the time you've got all the stuff to be able to do the things you dreamed about, you will spend a lot more. Some Chinese stuff is quite good, some pure junk.

A short list of necessities: I bought a collet chuck and set of 5C collets with my lathe. Very nice "run true" I. E. adjustable chuck. I use it way more than I expected. I also got a taper attachment and DRO with the lathe. Would hate to do W/O the DRO. Even more so on the the mill.
I think almost all of the decent lathes come with quick change tool posts. The one that came on my lathe is nicely made. You will need (want) about a dozen or more tool holders. I got most of mine when Shars had them on sale. My mill came  with a really poor quality vice, replaced it with a Kurt, very nice. Now for the quick list of things you can put $ signs to: 8" rotary table, surface plate, machinist bench vice, 123 blocks, set of micrometers, caliper, bore gages, additional tooling, boring head & good bars. Set of strap clamps, several "can't twist " clamps, two sets of parallels, V blocks, set of machinist squares, Set of collets for the mill, 20+- end mills, Spin Indexer, sine bar & gage blocks, gage pin set, Noga mag base, dial indicator and dial test indicator and magnetic back dial indicator and plunge back dial indicator & maybe 100 other things -- to start.........  Have fun.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Aug 17, 2020)

any of the Taiwanese equipment i have run across have been from kinda iffy to very well made.
it has to do with when they were made. 
1980's stuff seemed ok. i have 2 1236 Shenwai  lathe and a 2040 Victor that are Taiwanese - i beat the snot out of them, they have been excellent machines for me.


----------



## mksj (Aug 17, 2020)

All the machines you mentioned are made in Taiwan and built to very high standards. So to address your questions, I have the Acra LCM-42, it is the same exact mill as the Sharp LMV-42.  I purchased it directly from Acra, if you have specific questions you can PM me. Very high quality mill, if I had room I would have gone with the 50" table to have a bit more space for multiple vise/fixtures. I know a few other individuals who also purchased the same LCM mill and have been happy with it. Overall very well made and accurate. Kent has some new mill models that are also interesting and seem to be well made, although I do not know anyone that owns the newer models. The PM-949 is less expensive, the LMV probabably has a bit better overall fit and finish, I went with the Acra LMV factory VFD version that I subsequently modified.

I own the ERL-1340 which I ordered from QMT/PM. My friend ordered the TRL-1640 through Acra, and I installed a control system for him. On the lathes, most of the lathes you are discussing are the ERL, RML and TRL which are made by Sunmaster. Kent sells their branded versions, but for some reasons plays musical chairs with the naming and only offers certain models. QMT/PM sells their versions of the 1440TL, 1640TL and 1660TL which are the TRL Sunmaster lathes with a larger 2.55" spindle bore. They are not inexpensive, but they are solid and very quiet lathes as you are probably aware from having had hands on experience. I went with the ERL-1340 because I did not want to purchase new tooling and chucks for a bigger lather, otherwise I would have gone with the 1440TL from QMT/PM (they are both about the same price).





						RML Series High Speed Precision Lathes - SUN MASTER CNC Lathe Supplier
					

Find quality high speed precision lathes in SUN MASTER, the RML series will be your best choice! Please contact us, the leading CNC lathe supplier.




					www.sunmaster-cnc.com
				








						High Precision Manual Lathe Machine Manufacturer, Supplier | SUN MASTER®
					

SUN MASTER offers various manual lathe machines divided into several categories by different sizes and different applications, such as geared head, variable speed, clutch, and more types of manual lathes. If you are interested in our precision manual lathe machines just contact us!




					www.sunmaster-cnc.com
				



Mark


----------



## Nogoingback (Aug 17, 2020)

NEW ACRA 1640TE
					

The machine was ordered mid December of 2017 from ACRA Machinery. The machine took a few weeks to arrive from Taiwan and was shipped to the port of LA, then onto Ranch Cucamonga where ACRA is located. The machine was then delivered to my location via flatbed. The machine sustained a fair amount...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Here's a long post from someone that bought a new ACRA lathe a couple of years ago.  Not the same machine, but 
may be useful for you anyway.


----------



## mksj (Aug 17, 2020)

The Acra 1640TE is the same lathe as the Sunmaster RML-1640 if I recall and based on the specs, I installed the VFD control system on that machine and connected him with Acra. He ended up picking up the 1640TE at Acra. The TRL series has a larger spindle bore. They are all variants on the Sunmaster lathes.


----------



## hwelecrepair (Aug 17, 2020)

As a machine repair tech/rebuilder, I would put Kent above Acra.  We worked on an Acra mill about 4 months after it was purchased new for a warranty repair, and the mill was already obsolete.  I just don't think they are quality machines.

I can't rank PM among them, as I have never worked on one or ran one.

Jon


----------



## Bamban (Aug 17, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> any of the Taiwanese equipment i have run across have been from kinda iffy to very well made.
> it has to do with when they were made.
> 1980's stuff seemed ok. i have 2 1236 Shenwai  lathe and a 2040 Victor that are Taiwanese - i beat the snot out of them, they have been excellent machines for me.



Mike,

Comparing my Jet 1024 and the 1236, also a Taiwanese made, with my brand new Taiwan made PM1440TV for fit and finish. The older ones are much better. The dial finish alone and smoothness is disheartening. I can understand tight for brand new dials, but turnjng them, is like turning over a layer of sand.

I did not complain to Matt, it is what it is, as I don't feel it is their issue, and this is not a warranty issue. Just disappointing, after spending that kind of money on a variable speed 5HP 1440 Taiwan made lathe I had higher expectations.

Will I buy another brand new lathe from the same manufacturer, Liang Dei? The short answer is a big NO.

The little Jet that could keeps on truckin....


----------



## mksj (Aug 17, 2020)

Each company carries a range of machines over a wide price range. I looked at some of the other Acra mills (and also Kent, Gizzly, etc.) when I purchased my LMV mill and many of the less expensive models were dated design and not as well built. A lot of the Kent models at the time had been around for a decades, they recently redesigned their mills. Grizzly's SB line is their high quality line, many of their bigger lathes (1330 and larger) sold are made by  Sunmaster. I would not draw conclusions about a brand/distributor based on a single machine they carry. Warranty and service wise, from my experience (direct and through working with others) with multiple machine distributors I would rate QMT/PM at the top of the heap. The Sunmaster manual lathe line (ERL, RML, TRL) is a much heavier duty and higher quality line then the 1340/1440GT and the Eisen 1440E/GE/EV, they are also more expensive. The Acra LMV/Sharp LCM has been in production for many years, and I compared it to several other mills and it is a much better built machine. Still the design's for manual mills are archaic. With the advent of CNC machines, there is little incentive for manufactures to invest in a major redesign for such a small market.

On the mills I looked at several used Lagun mills in the 3-4K range, and also had used ones at a friends shop. Nice manual mills, but they wanted 3-4K, they all needed repairs and they not longer held spec. tolerances for production work (main reason they were being sold). With the used machine market you need to know what you are getting into, factor in repairs and cost of parts (if available). Many of the light industrial manual lathes have had heavy use in machine shops, so you may be inheriting a host of issues along with limited replacement parts.  I dealt with another hobbyist that purchased a used Sharp 1340 lathe, and found out after the sale that the spindle was bent most likely because it had been crashed. Replacement from Sharp was more than he paid for the lathe, I tried to source parts for him through Acra because Sharp didn't want to deal with him because the machine was purchased second hand.

Sunmaster manual lathe production


----------



## kb58 (Aug 17, 2020)

China can make really high quality machinery—but we won't pay for it, we want low price. China accommodates our demand by making machinery that's built to a price point _instead of a quality standard_, and we do buy that, and here we are.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Aug 17, 2020)

kb58 said:


> China can make really high quality machinery—but we won't pay for it, we want low price. China accommodates our demand by making machinery that's built to a price point _instead of a quality standard_, and we do buy that, and here we are.



We're not willing to pay the price for a quality machine from China because it is made in China and therefore of lesser quality, which is proven by the quality of the Chinese goods we get for a lesser price. Circular logic makes me dizzy.


----------



## ddickey (Aug 17, 2020)

Never seen one in person but those Knuth machines look nice. They better be thought for the price they're asking.


----------



## Steve R (Aug 18, 2020)

Sun master makes all 3 brand lathes I was looking at, but who makes the Acra & PM knee mills? The Acra LCM50 from what I have seen in videos seems to look more heavy duty then the PM 949 & 1050. I did see in person the Sharp mill that is the same as the LCM50. The LCM42 & 50 have the bridgeport round style head where the lesser Acra and PM version don't, they have the more rectangle heads. When you look at the PM1050 listing it shows the PM949 in pictures. The Acra as ground and scraped ways and table top when the PM says just ground. From what I have read it seems scraping makes them last longer and even the better bridgeport where supposed to have that done on them. 

Who makes the DRO's for PM. I would like to have the same DRO on the lathe and mill, just to keep things more simple. I do want one that you can do arc's with on the mill. You can get DRO's from $300 to $2400 and I'm sure the higher priced will have different options that is not available on the cheaper versions.


----------



## Winegrower (Aug 18, 2020)

My 14" Takisawa was made in Taiwan in 1979.   It's a dang good lathe.   I think the point about designing to a price point is the basic issue...you can get excellent Asian machines, they just cost more than we are ready to pay.   That's why I buy used, not this new stuff.   Some of the posts make me weep for the new owners.   Ok, maybe not literally.   You know what I mean.


----------



## Steve R (Aug 18, 2020)

I get what you are saying about the buying used if you have selection near or around you. There is not much out there near me. If I wanted a project to try and restore, yeah, but that is not what I'm looking for.
https://sd.craigslist.org/tls/d/sioux-falls-hardinge-dv-59-lathe-floor/7156282502.html
https://fargo.craigslist.org/tls/d/mapleton-south-bend-lathe/7177802529.html
https://northplatte.craigslist.org/hvo/d/ogallala-metal-lathe/7175694318.html


----------



## Mitch Alsup (Aug 19, 2020)

kb58 said:


> China can make really high quality machinery—but we won't pay for it, we want low price.



Some will, some won't.



> China accommodates our demand by making machinery that's built to a price point _instead of a quality standard_, and we do buy that, and here we are.



If you look hard enough, you will find both Grizzly and Precision Mathews same lathes and mills that have exactly the same dimensions as ones found at Harbor Fright.
The PM and Gs typically cost about 30% more than the HF--and are worth it. Better tolerances, better bearings, quality control,.....all things worth paying for.

But, no they will never be Monarchs or Bridgeports.


----------



## Larry$ (Aug 23, 2020)

hwelecrepair said:


> As a machine repair tech/rebuilder, I would put Kent above Acra.  We worked on an Acra mill about 4 months after it was purchased new for a warranty repair, and the mill was already obsolete.  I just don't think they are quality machines.
> 
> I can't rank PM among them, as I have never worked on one or ran one.
> 
> Jon


Do you know who the US sales organization is for Kent? I see them being sold by Stiles. If they are your sole support for that brand I'd find a different color machine.


----------



## kb58 (Aug 23, 2020)

Mitch Alsup said:


> ... The PM and Gs typically cost about 30% more than the HF--and are worth it. Better tolerances, better bearings, quality control,.....all things worth paying for...


Some will, some won't,


----------



## Steve R (Aug 23, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> Do you know who the US sales organization is for Kent? I see them being sold by Stiles. If they are your sole support for that brand I'd find a different color machine.


No I don't. There is a dealer in the western part of the state the sells them and uses them himself in his machine shop,.


----------



## hwelecrepair (Aug 24, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> Do you know who the US sales organization is for Kent? I see them being sold by Stiles. If they are your sole support for that brand I'd find a different color machine.



I do believe we go through Kent.  It isnt a brand we see alot of.  Our region is filled mostly with Laguns and Bridgeports.

Jon


----------



## ddickey (Aug 24, 2020)

You could start with Penntoolco.com or kentusa.com


----------

