# ER40 Collets



## Voda2000 (Dec 29, 2019)

I only have a four jaw chuck right now for my 6” Craftsman lathe 101.21400.  It would be nice to have another way to mount material on the lathe. 

I found a set of 15 ER40 collets locally 1/8”-1”.

Is this an appropriate size range for a 6” lathe?

The set comes with a ISO 40 holder so that isn’t rally of any value to me but I did find the plans for a collect chuck on the forum and watched a series of YouTube videos that show someone making their own chuck. I’ve rebuilt motors and gearboxes before so I have experience with working precise measurements but I have limited lathe time.  Is making a my own collet chuck beyond the skill of a novice?


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## chippermat (Dec 29, 2019)

I'm curious as to why that over a 3 jaw self centering chuck?


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## machPete99 (Dec 29, 2019)

ER32 will be cheaper but I think they only go up to 3/4" or so. For larger material I generally prefer to use 3 or 4 jaw chucks.
With ER32, 3J and 4J options, the 3 Jaw gets the most use. ER32 typically comes out for smaller diameters.

Need to also consider your spindle bore, which I suspect is fairly small on that lathe.


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## matthewsx (Dec 29, 2019)

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I’m sure you could workout making a collet chuck with time, what method do you have for cutting tapers currently? How are your threading skills? I’m happy I bought collets for my Seneca Falls lathe but I didn’t have to build a chuck for them.

A three jaw chuck should be available fairly cheap for your machine but if you’re just starting out, getting proficient with the four jaw will be worth the time. Once you get used to it you’ll find centering work in the four jaw goes fairly quickly and it often provides better results. Also super convenient for offset work which I’ve found myself doing more than I would have thought. 

Cheers,

John


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## Tozguy (Dec 29, 2019)

If you are relatively new to lathe work then continuing to use the 4 jaw independent chuck would give you time to determine what you need in the way of ER collets if any. Basically I use ER collets for holding work too small for the 4 jaw which in my case is 3/8''. My ER 32 collets are plenty for the few times I might need them.


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## cathead (Dec 29, 2019)

I would think that you could mount the ISO40 holder in the 4 jaw chuck using a dial indicator so you can use the ER40 collets.  
As long as you leave the ISO40 in the 4 jaw set up, it would be quick to change out collets.  I use 5c collets for this 
but the concept is the same.


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## T Bredehoft (Dec 29, 2019)

I found an ER40 chuck mounted on an M2 taper with a draw bar to secure it in the  spindle. I'm not sure which vendor it was but was one of the better known ones. This does, however, eliminate through-the-chuck feeding.


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## Voda2000 (Dec 29, 2019)

Thanks for all the replies. I’ll try to answer in the same order. 

I’m not opposed to a three jaw chuck I just have I chance to get set of used E40s for around $100. It’s more about opportunity than preference.

Headstock bore is 17/32” so about half of the collets in that set would not allow passing though the head.

The only method I have for cutting a taper would be with the compound. The one method I saw involved putting a collet on a bar between centres and the using a dial indicator on the compound to get the angle correct. I also don’t have any experience  threading with a lathe. This would definitely be a learning opportunity for me.

Good to know I can get by with the four jaw for now. I am getting surprising quick at centring work on it.

Interesting idea about using the ISO in the four jaw or getting a Mt2 with a drawbar. I have a drawbar for my milling holder already so that might be an option.

My current tooling is fairly limited. I’m using a lantern tool post with a couple of left and right hand Armstrong holder. I’ve also got a threading holder and boring bar holder.  I do need to order some boring bars.

Overall I’m looking at these ER40s just as being something that is available used locally for a good price. If I’m totally off base please let me know.


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## Bi11Hudson (Dec 29, 2019)

There are several issues involved here. What works for you may be so much junque to me. So I must reserve judgement and describe *my* applications. I use a Craftsman 12X36 (101.27440) and have ER-25 collets for doing small work. In my case, small work is the only place I use them. 

With a *12 inch* machine, ER-40s are *gigantic*, too much so to be useful in the larger sizes. For a 6 inch machine, they may prove so large as to be unusable. I also have a (Asian) 9 inch machine, fitted with ER-16 collets. The other side of this is that, as a model builder, a great deal of my work is too small for the many chucks I have hanging around. That and the fact that it usually is a "one off" operation. Most times, if I need 2 pieces, it is because I botched the first one.

In any case, the larger sizes _equate_ to a 4 jaw chuck. Which is better is a call you must make, no one else can make that for you. For what it's worth, when I graduated from an electric drill to a real (albeit small) lathe, it was fitted with a 4 jaw chuck. What I learned on. And what I actually prefer for precision work, although I normally have a 3 jaw chuck fitted, for speed on low tolerance work.

My  personal concept would be to buy a smaller set more in keeping with your machine. If you need a larger set, buy it then. But that is my opinion, I don't know you or your applications.

.


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## Voda2000 (Dec 29, 2019)

Bi11Hudson said:


> There are several issues involved here. What works for you may be so much junque to me. So I must reserve judgement and describe *my* applications. I use a Craftsman 12X36 (101.27440) and have ER-25 collets for doing small work. In my case, small work is the only place I use them.
> 
> With a *12 inch* machine, ER-40s are *gigantic*, too much so to be useful in the larger sizes. For a 6 inch machine, they may prove so large as to be unusable. I also have a (Asian) 9 inch machine, fitted with ER-16 collets. The other side of this is that, as a model builder, a great deal of my work is too small for the many chucks I have hanging around. That and the fact that it usually is a "one off" operation. Most times, if I need 2 pieces, it is because I botched the first one.
> 
> ...


I think that kind of answers my question. I’ll leave these as they are really bigger than I need. I think I might be better to invest in some good tooling for now and keep practicing with my four jaw. 

Thanks everyone


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## wa5cab (Dec 29, 2019)

I would buy a good 3.jaw chuck first.  If you later decide that you have a need for collets for small work, ER32 and ER25 are more suited to a 6" lathe.  And whatever size you decide upon, make or buy a screw-on collet chuck with 1"-10 threads, not one mounted on a 2MT arbor.  The 2MT arbor mounted chuck is only good for parts up to about 2" to 3" long unless you use a steady rest.  Whereas the threaded type can handle any length so long as the stock will fit through the spindle.

Also, to make an ER collet chuck of either type and any size, you must be able to cut metric threads.  Which probably means that you will have to acquire the gears to do whatever thread you need as they did not originally come with the machine.  And if you decide that you must make a collet chuck, at least buy the compression nut.  You basically can;t make one for what you can just buy one for.


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## mickri (Dec 29, 2019)

Welcome to the forum.  Don't be afraid to ask any question no matter how simple you may think it is.  There are a lot of great people on here who will help you out. 

X2 on passing on the ER40 collets. 

I have only been at this hobby for 3 years and didn't know squat when I started.  One of the best things that I did to learn how to use my lathe was to make a norman style QCTP.  You only need a lathe and a drill to make one.  It will give you lots of practice turning  and boring to precise diameters.  There is a lot of drilling and taping holes too.  And layout.  Here is a link to my thread documenting my project.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/norman-style-qctp.79705/  You can of course buy QCTP's but that won't help you learn how to use your lathe.  And it can get rather expensive to buy the tool holders.  Figure on needing 15 to 20 tool holders.


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## wa5cab (Dec 29, 2019)

mickri is absolutely correct about the need for more QCTP cutter holders than come with any of the sets.  This is primarily true of the #101 or in your case the #001 holder for turning and facing cutters.  If you have only the one that comes with the set, every time that a job requires the use of more than one cutter, you will spend as much time changing and setting them up as you would have spent if using the original lantern type holder.  Plus, you will lose your depth of cut (DOC) setting and have to reestablish that.


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## JPMacG (Dec 29, 2019)

Yes, I agree, a 3-jaw first.  

I made an ER40 collet chuck for my 12x24" Craftsman lathe.  The chuck has been more useful than I imagined, and I recommend that at some point you do the same.  I buy collets as I need them - I think there is no point in getting a set, as I likely will not ever use all the sizes.  The inexpensive Shars collets are fine for my purposes.

As mentioned, ER32 and ER25 collets are less costly, more plentiful, and maybe better suited than ER40 for your 6" lathe.  I find that the larger size of the ER40 is sometimes useful, but probably not worth the higher cost.


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## chippermat (Dec 29, 2019)

That's a nice setup, JP, what kind of runout does it have?


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## JPMacG (Dec 29, 2019)

The TIR is about 0.005 .0005. I obtained this same result from measurements using several collets and several sizes of drill rod, so I think it is about that.  Here is a link to the original thread on the chuck:









						Yet another ER40 collet chuck for an Atlas
					

Just completed an ER40 collet chuck for my Craftsman (Atlas) 12-inch lathe.  I followed the excellent drawing by Ronald Crowell, Harold Hall's website, and the many YouTube tutorials.  This was a real nice learning experience with a variety of operations... boring a precise diameter, internal...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## chippermat (Dec 29, 2019)

I think you meant 0.0005, that's what your write-up in that thread says. And that's quite remarkable as far as I'm concerned, good job. Thanks for sharing.


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## JPMacG (Dec 29, 2019)

Yes, sorry, I meant .0005.  Thank you.


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## Voda2000 (Dec 29, 2019)

Thanks.

Any tips on where to get a three jaw from?  Looks like most not original ones require a back plate that needs to be machined first.  Are some better than others?

Making a QCTP looks like a good way to practice my skills, I may look at that project.


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## wa5cab (Dec 30, 2019)

Cost of chucks is about like cost of anything else.  There is generally a direct correspondence between cost and quality.  And of course other things (such as quality) being equal, USA made will usually cost more than Chinese.  Polish and German made chucks are generally OK but like US and Chinese, you can find cheap ones and good ones and seldom will you find both in the same chuck.  One of the drawbacks to buying a plain back chuck and buying and machining a back plate for it (besides the time and trouble) is that they will generally stick out farther from the front of the headstock.  And you already don't have a lot of space to play with.  I would personally try to find an NOSB Craftsman or Atlas branded 3" or 4" chuck.  They are of course scarce but do turn up.


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## Downunder Bob (Dec 30, 2019)

I would definitely get a good quality 3 jaw chuck small enough that it will comfortably fit in the 4 Jaw, once you set that up running true you can use it all day. Also get to know the 4 jaw chuck over time it will be your best friend.


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## Tozguy (Dec 30, 2019)

Re the 3 jaw chuck I have been well served by a 6'' Phase II version, it is a budget chuck that represents great value.
Bear in mind that tooling up now without having a clear notion of the work you will be doing is risky. You might end up with tools you don't use. Also, if later down the line you want to upgrade to a bigger lathe much of the tooling for your first lathe will probably not work on the new one.
At the hobby level we can take a few years to accumulate the tools we want. Often, it is rewarding in itself to use what we have to the limit and find ways to make do with what we have. Then it becomes more clear what our next tool addition should be.


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## pontiac428 (Dec 30, 2019)

T Bredehoft said:


> I found an ER40 chuck mounted on an M2 taper with a draw bar to secure it in the  spindle. I'm not sure which vendor it was but was one of the better known ones. This does, however, eliminate through-the-chuck feeding.



I did this with an MT2 and drawbar using ER32 collets.  It's affordable and works a treat, but you can't pass through the head stock... but that's not much of an issue for me, really.  I use collets for small parts.  If you go this route, I recommend getting a ball bearing nut for the collet holder.  It'll cut cinching runout significantly.


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## Voda2000 (Dec 30, 2019)

Downunder Bob said:


> I would definitely get a good quality 3 jaw chuck small enough that it will comfortably fit in the 4 Jaw, once you set that up running true you can use it all day. Also get to know the 4 jaw chuck over time it will be your best friend.


Never thought of that, that a good idea!  I imaging you could do the same thing for small stock with a Jacobs Chuck mounted on a straight bar in the four jaw.


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## Voda2000 (Dec 30, 2019)

Along the topic of MT2 to collet adaptors, if one wasn’t drilled for a draw bar is there any reason you couldn’t add one?


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## David S (Dec 30, 2019)

I have the 618 with my main go to chuck a 4 jaw independent.  As you mentioned, you can get used to centring it fairly quickly.  If you haven't made a second key for it, I highly recommend doing that, since it speeds up centring big time.

I also have a Jacobs 56B headstock chuck which is fairly accurate for work up to about 0.5" diameter and it allows passing through the spindle.

For smaller and more accurate work (I repair old clocks) I use MT2 to ER11 collets with a drawbar I made myself.  To accommodate long thin workpieces you can drill a hole in the centre of the draw bar.  The collet holder is threaded for M10.

I also have the same set up with ER-25 collets.  Which again select for accuracy and for applications where I run the lathe in reverse and don't want to chance the screw on chucks coming off.

David


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## matthewsx (Dec 30, 2019)

Basic lathe tooling includes: 3 jaw chuck, 4 jaw chuck, tool holders, Jacobs chuck and centers for the tailstock, follow rest and steady rest, in addition to the “correct” collets w/drawbar.

Getting any of these to complement a quality lathe is probably a good idea if the price is right. Decent quality import items that are serviceable are just fine and has been stated already waiting for a deal if you don’t need it right away is okay too 

It’s nice to have these because finding them when needed in the middle of a job could be a pain. When you move on or up proper tooling will definitely help with getting your asking price and the new owner will be happy to have a “complete” tool.

My lathe is over a hundred years old and I doubt I’ll be the last one working on it. As time goes on and pieces for these machines get more scarce the ones someone cared for enough to collect all the parts will be treasured even more. 

John


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## Voda2000 (Dec 30, 2019)

I have been keeping my eye out for a 56B Jacobs chuck, seems like a useful item to have. (Anyone have one they want to sell?)

I had not thought of the idea of using a MT2 with a drawbar allowing the lathe to run in reverse.  I have the motor wired with a drum switch so I can run it either way.  What operations would you do where the motor running in reverse is necessary?


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## David S (Dec 30, 2019)

The main reason I run the lathe in reverse is when using my tool post grinder from behind.  Now the cutting loads are very small, so that shouldn't cause a chuck to unscrew.  Also I think I did it when cutting metric threads on my Atlas 618.  The main thing perhaps is the inertia for a large chuck when started.  If I had to do this I would disengage the counter shaft tension, start the motor and engage the counter shaft tension sort of like a clutch.

David


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## JPMacG (Dec 30, 2019)

I once wanted the Jacobs chuck that would screw onto the spindle of my lathe.  They are rare and costly - like $100 on eBay.   I never did get one, and in hindsight, I have not ever needed one.  The 3-jaw, 4-jaw and collet chuck do all I need.


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## Bob Korves (Dec 30, 2019)

Voda2000 said:


> I have been keeping my eye out for a 56B Jacobs chuck, seems like a useful item to have. (Anyone have one they want to sell?)


I have one in quite nice condition, currently has a 1" shank in the mounting threads.  PM me if you are interested in buying one from the US (postal rates.)


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## wa5cab (Dec 31, 2019)

Voda2000 said:


> Along the topic of MT2 to collet adapters, if one wasn’t drilled for a draw bar is there any reason you couldn’t add one?


No, no reason not to and a very good reason to do it.  One should never use a collet or cutter holder on a taper arbor in the spindle that is not held in by a draw bar other than something like a live or dead center.  End mills pull and vibrate slightly.  If the holder is not retained by a draw bar, sooner or later it WILL come loose.  The only problem you might have in drilling and tapping a Morse Taper arbor for a draw bar may be how you are going to hold it for modification.  That depends upon the shape of the big end of the arbor.


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## wa5cab (Dec 31, 2019)

In probably most cases, the spindle chuck and the collet chuck are alternative ways of doing the same thing.


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## Tozguy (Dec 31, 2019)

Voda2000 said:


> Along the topic of MT2 to collet adaptors, if one wasn’t drilled for a draw bar is there any reason you couldn’t add one?


The first concern would be how to hold it in the 4 jaw.
Then it would be how hard the adapter is and if you have the tools to drill and tap it.
However it is not likely that an MT2 collet adapter would come without a drawbar thread.


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## Downunder Bob (Dec 31, 2019)

Tozguy said:


> Re the 3 jaw chuck I have been well served by a 6'' Phase II version, it is a budget chuck that represents great value.
> Bear in mind that tooling up now without having a clear notion of the work you will be doing is risky. You might end up with tools you don't use. Also, if later down the line you want to upgrade to a bigger lathe much of the tooling for your first lathe will probably not work on the new one.
> At the hobby level we can take a few years to accumulate the tools we want. Often, it is rewarding in itself to use what we have to the limit and find ways to make do with what we have. Then it becomes more clear what our next tool addition should be.



I agree, I would not spend much money getting specialised tooling until I had the lathe or machine I wanted, because any late changes in machine choice could make the tooling choices redundant. This is not so important with generic tooling, but still get the machine first, you never know, it might come with all the tooling you need.


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## wa5cab (Dec 31, 2019)

Tozguy said:


> Re the 3 jaw chuck I have been well served by a 6'' Phase II version, it is a budget chuck that represents great value.



I forgot to write earlier and make clear that Tozguy was meaning that his experience was that Phase II is an acceptable brand, not that he had a 6" diameter chuck on a 6" swing lathe.  The 101.07301 will swing 6" over the bed but only 4-1/8" over the carriage.  I've forgotten which lathe he has but it must be 10" or larger.  The largest 3-jaw chuck that you should put on a 6" lathe is 3".  4" will fit (barely) but you would have to be careful when mounting anything larger than about 3" diameter in it because that is about the diameter at which the outer ends of the jaws begin to stick outside the chuck body.  So for a 6" lathe, the recommended limits would be 3" 3-Jaw and 4" 4-jaw.


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## Voda2000 (Dec 31, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> I have one in quite nice condition, currently has a 1" shank in the mounting threads.  PM me if you are interested in buying one from the US (postal rates.)


PM sent.


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## Tozguy (Jan 1, 2020)

wa5cab said:


> I've forgotten which lathe he has but it must be 10" or larger. The largest 3-jaw chuck that you should put on a 6" lathe is 3''


Right on Robert, fyi my lathe is a gap bed 12x36. My 4 jaw is 8'' and the jaws pass real close to the ways when they are open to the practical maximum.


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## Downunder Bob (Jan 1, 2020)

Voda2000 said:


> Never thought of that, that a good idea!  I imaging you could do the same thing for small stock with a Jacobs Chuck mounted on a straight bar in the four jaw.



except that drill style chucks are not generally noted for repeatedly running true.


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