# Tangential Tool Holder



## Andre (Aug 16, 2014)

Just thought I'd show this off, a tangential tool holder for my Craftsman 109.20630. Still needs some tweaking and have to remove some off the bottom to lower it to provide more clearance for larger work. Lathe running in backgear on mild steel using Kerosene as a cutting fluid.

[video=youtube;qDoYFBykwEs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoYFBykwEs[/video]




Just got some HF 1/8" letter# stamps, already have the 1/4" stamps but the 1/8" stamps are a lot nicer and stamp better. Had to try them out, my initials. 




Thanks for looking!


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## Hawkeye (Aug 16, 2014)

Very nice, Andre. I haven't tried a round bit yet. I might just have to make one.


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## Bishop (Aug 16, 2014)

Hawkeye said:


> Very nice, Andre. I haven't tried a round bit yet. I might just have to make one.



I was just thinking the exact same thing. Nice work Andre. 

Shawn


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## Andre (Aug 17, 2014)

Thanks!

Having some chatter problems with high surface speeds, will have to figure that out. Might make a good roughing tool though.


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## ericc (Aug 18, 2014)

Trouble with high speeds?  What is the surface speed these are being cut with in the video?


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## mattthemuppet2 (Aug 18, 2014)

Lovely holder, looks like you did a good job. The chatter is most likely the huge nose radius and small lathe. The bigger the nose radius, the greater the HP and rigidity needed for it to cut without chatter. Grind the cutting to into a 80 to 85 degree V and try again. All the tangential tool bits I've seen have been V shaped. Let us know how you get on.

BTW if you need any HSS bits let me know, I have plenty to spare


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## Don B (Aug 20, 2014)

Andre said:


> Just thought I'd show this off, a tangential tool holder for my Craftsman 109.20630.



Nice work Andre......)


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## Andre (Aug 20, 2014)

ericc said:


> Trouble with high speeds?  What is the surface speed these are being cut with in the video?



Lathe is in backgear, maybe 200 RPM. Piece started out 1/4" in diameter so.... about 13 FPM. 
I get chatter at normal lathe speed, around 1000 rpm on this machine. I have to play around with rake angles on the tool. Have not used it much.

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mattthemuppet said:


> Lovely holder, looks like you did a good job. The chatter is most likely the huge nose radius and small lathe. The bigger the nose radius, the greater the HP and rigidity needed for it to cut without chatter. Grind the cutting to into a 80 to 85 degree V and try again. All the tangential tool bits I've seen have been V shaped. Let us know how you get on.
> 
> BTW if you need any HSS bits let me know, I have plenty to spare



Thank you! 
I was thinking it was because of the nose radius and rake angle. I don't know if you could see but the chip was a good 1/8" wide.
Thanks for the offer! I have a lot of HSS scrap, thanks to learning how to mill ) I think I used a broken center drill as a cutter.

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Don B said:


> Nice work Andre......)



Thanks Don!


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## burgermeister (Aug 20, 2014)

Pardon my ignorance, but what does this do that a normal tool holder doesn't?  It clearly does cut very nicely.  Is it the rake angle of the cutting edge?  It seems similar to what a rocker toolpost with its holders would produce, which does seem more optimal than what can be achieved with a QCTP.


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## Rick Leslie (Aug 20, 2014)

I think the main advantage is the tool and holder rigidity. The tool flex is reduced. Here's some good info and videos on the tool.

http://bay-com.com/product-list.php?DIAMOND_TOOLHOLDER-pg1-cid35.html


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## burgermeister (Aug 21, 2014)

I think I get it.  Looks like a simple way to get the cutting surface angled nicely, like the old armstrong toolholders do, though clearly more rigid than the armstrong setup.  

Thanks for the link!


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## george wilson (Aug 22, 2014)

You only have to grind the angle on the end of your cutter. I ought to make myself a square tool holder like that. A disadvantage is you have no chip breaker,and will get long,continuous rolls of chips.

Actually,I think someone sells a tangental tool holder that Randy Khoupt (sp?) might have designed. Little Machine Shop ?


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## Andre (Sep 1, 2014)

I ground the round bit into a 50 degree V shape then reduced the back rake a little. I just took a .035" on the dia cut in steel with my little craftsman 109. That's a large cut on a 109 even for aluminum, and this is steel. I will never go back to a normal square toolbit again. 

And George, yes it produced a long stringy chip. Just a plus in my opinion, less cleanup and flying chips. I have to worry about chip cleanup because we have a cat and I don't want chips on the floor for him to cut his paws on. These chips are maybe 4" long then break and fall onto my lap (sitting down) or under the bed of the lathe.


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## rick9345 (Sep 4, 2014)

I have a set of these (spendy $$)

http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid

The good excellant surface finnish, easy sharpen,step facing nice. Threading, works good, Turn and face same tool with out repositioning. Big depth of cut for lathe size 

Bad, long curling chips, can't put chip breaker on tool,tried. Need to figure out an add on.


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## Torbo (Oct 24, 2014)

Nice work! Now I have something to do next weekend.


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## Andre (Oct 24, 2014)

Torbo said:


> Nice work! Now I have something to do next weekend.



Thank you )


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## Splat (Mar 10, 2015)

These tangential tool holders are great for everybody but the lathe newbies will love them. They are easy to sharpen, give a great cut and finish, and any sized machine can use them. If you bought the Bay-Com/Eccentric Engineering tools then it comes with a sharpening jig. Inset the tool bit into the jig, then using your bench grinder just lay the jig on the tool rest and go back and forth a few times across the wheel face and you're done. I was having a hard time deciding for my first lathe tooling whether to get the tangential holder or go with Warner's tool holders with HSS inserts. I'm glad I went with the tangential because there's a lot you can do with one tool holder and the 1/4" HSS bits can be found anywhere, are inexpensive, easy to resharpen, and should last a good while.  Here's a nice little video on them.


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## Ripthorn (Mar 12, 2015)

Pardon my late jump in here, but what plans were used to make these?  I have a little, wimpy Edelstaal Machinex5 lathe that could benefit from a tool like this.  I have the A2ZCNC QCTP, so I would like to make a holder for it.


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## Andre (Mar 12, 2015)

Ripthorn said:


> Pardon my late jump in here, but what plans were used to make these?  I have a little, wimpy Edelstaal Machinex5 lathe that could benefit from a tool like this.  I have the A2ZCNC QCTP, so I would like to make a holder for it.




No plans were used, just thought it up and basically made it as I went. The hardest part was the little clamp, and cutting that groove. I made it with a file, using the bluing technique used in scraping to see where I needed to file to fit the HSS bit.

The angled hole was drilled using an air hand drill, not perfect by any means (In fact, it's not even close to the angle it should be, but it works)

If you build one, please post it! (and if you need any other pics of mine, like with the clamp removed, feel free to ask)


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## Ripthorn (Mar 17, 2015)

I hope to get around to one soon.  I am awaiting the construction and delivery of a new 7x12 lathe, so hopefully I will have a little time.  I read the post on gadgetbuilder.com about the tangential holder and he talked about how he did the angles.  I thought about it a bit and realized I could probably do the angles, including the slot, using my table saw pretty easily.  Use a file to finish up.  This would be in aluminum of course.  I am going to make a test one out of a block of wood to verify the procedure first, but hopefully it will be really quick and easy, the hardest part being machining the dovetail for my QCTP.


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## Andre (Mar 17, 2015)

Ripthorn said:


> I hope to get around to one soon.  I am awaiting the construction and delivery of a new 7x12 lathe, so hopefully I will have a little time.  I read the post on gadgetbuilder.com about the tangential holder and he talked about how he did the angles.  I thought about it a bit and realized I could probably do the angles, including the slot, using my table saw pretty easily.  Use a file to finish up.  This would be in aluminum of course.  I am going to make a test one out of a block of wood to verify the procedure first, but hopefully it will be really quick and easy, the hardest part being machining the dovetail for my QCTP.



I will not encourage cutting aluminum on a tablesaw, it's too dangerous holding a small piece of metal against a 12" blade spinning 4,000 RPM. Don't do it.

Hacksaw two slots then get a cold chisel and notch out the material between the slots if you have no other way of doing it.


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## KMoffett (Mar 18, 2015)

An issue that I think you might have with an aluminum tool holder is stripping out threaded holes.  In a normal tool's horizontal position the forces are perpendicular to the tool axis. It doesn't require as much force to keep the tool from tipping or moving sideways.  Because the forces on the tangential tool is parallel to the tool axis, you really have to crank down on the screw that clamps the tool in the holder to keep it from slipping down. Just my 2 cents.  

I have two  from Bay-Com and love them. 

Ken


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## KMoffett (Mar 18, 2015)

OOPs...double post.
Ken


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## Andre (Mar 18, 2015)

KMoffett said:


> An issue that I think you might have with an aluminum tool holder is stripping out threaded holes.  In a normal tool's horizontal position the forces are perpendicular to the tool axis. It doesn't require as much force to keep the tool from tipping or moving sideways.  Because the forces on the tangential tool is parallel to the tool axis, you really have to crank down on the screw that clamps the tool in the holder to keep it from slipping down. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> I have two  from Bay-Com and love them.
> 
> Ken




Ken, 
That's exactly what I thought too, but it's surprisingly strong. I used a 10-32 screw, tighten it snug and it should be okay. I've never measured the force, but around 35 in/lb's using a 3/16" toolbit. I've taken 20 thou deep cuts in mild steel in one pass; a good cut for a Craftsman 109. It never slipped. I wonder if one could be made with a mIcrometer adjustment for height on the bottom, that will also strengthen the setup :chinscratch:


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## rbertalotto (Mar 18, 2015)

Once you try a tangential tool holder....you'll never go back! Best thing I EVER did for my turning in the shop.


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## ogberi (Mar 19, 2015)

Andre said:


> Ken,
> That's exactly what I thought too, but it's surprisingly strong. I used a 10-32 screw, tighten it snug and it should be okay. I've never measured the force, but around 35 in/lb's using a 3/16" toolbit. I've taken 20 thou deep cuts in mild steel in one pass; a good cut for a Craftsman 109. It never slipped. I wonder if one could be made with a mIcrometer adjustment for height on the bottom, that will also strengthen the setup :chinscratch:



Exactly what I did on the tangential toolholder for my Taig.  Two buttonhead screws to secure it in the slot, a 10-32x1/2 or 3/4 long to set the tool height.  .010 interrupted cuts on a square steel workpiece and it didn't hammer it down or rip the toolbit out. Big aid was I machined the toolholder to sit on the cross slide, and machined the necessary angles into the bottom of the toolholder.  That way I could just mill a straight slot in the corner.

Here's a video of me flat out abusing my tangential toolholder.


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## randyc (Mar 19, 2015)

FYI, "Machinery's Handbook" has included a number of tangential toolholder designs for many, many decades - take a look


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## Andre (Mar 19, 2015)

randyc said:


> FYI, "Machinery's Handbook" has included a number of tangential toolholder designs for many, many decades - take a look



I have a 11th edition, I wonder id it's in there. Hmm


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## randyc (Mar 19, 2015)

Andre said:


> I have a 11th edition, I wonder id it's in there. Hmm



Probably - there are three pages of tangential tool holders in my 17th edition.  Not a lot has changed in manual lathe tools other than QCTP in the past century.


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## KMoffett (Mar 20, 2015)

I can't find any references to tangential tools in the 26th edition.

Ken


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## randyc (Mar 20, 2015)

KMoffett said:


> I can't find any references to tangential tools in the 26th edition.
> 
> Ken



I can't guarantee that they are still in the latest editions but try looking up "Single Point Tools And Tool Posts".  That is the chapter in my version of Machinery's Handbook in which the tool holders are included.  (BTW, the tool holders are not labeled "tangential" but their purpose will be obvious when you see them.  There should be four different configurations depicted.)


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