# Hardinge HLV-H abandoned project



## Dudemanrod (Aug 10, 2019)

500.00 this person tried to cnc this lathe and gave up on it. He has a new spindle bearings and two spindles with a bunch of new and old parts. Is this a viable project? Or a boat anchor. The price is right


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## Bob Korves (Aug 10, 2019)

Basket cases require good knowledge of the machine to see if everything is there and usable.  Upside is that the parts are available for easy inspection -- but not while running.  The down side of a Hardinge lathe is that they are expensive to find parts for if any are bad or missing.  I do not see many parts in the pics, only the big pieces.  The owner may have been attempting to sell the parts, and some may be missing or in poor condition.  Those lathes are VERY nice when complete, adjusted, and running smoothly in original condition, or sensibly modified.  As with most machinery, basket cases are not worth much.  There is also the question of what the current owner has done to try to CNC the machine.  It may no longer be usable for a manual lathe (if that is what you want), and may have modifications that will not let it return to being a manual lathe again without excessive work and money and time.  Be careful, and take someone along who is familiar with that lathe to look at it if at all possible.


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## Dudemanrod (Aug 10, 2019)

Hi Bob he said its complete but I wont be able to tell if I go see it. I'm going to check out a endo 12x36 for 1199.00 he said the price is flexable down the street from the hardinge so I'm thinking the enco may be better for a new guy like me


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## kb58 (Aug 10, 2019)

Talk about opposite ends of the pool! "I'm looking at this disassembled Ferrari F40, and a used Prius." Decisions, decisions!


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## Dudemanrod (Aug 10, 2019)

Yeah you are right I really  like the hardinge to be honest and am fairly confident I could get it going but unknown costs and having to really figure the the thing out. I don't  want a pos sitting in my back yard for ever. I'm new to machining so I really want to learn the basics of machining. That Hardinge could take a long time before I can learn to use it. The wiring is torn out to so maybe a project for a hardinge  owner. This lathe is on craigslist in Berkeley Ca if anyone reading this can use it.


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## C-Bag (Aug 10, 2019)

IMHO you are on the right track. I've seen many basket cases in the Bay Area. Don't know why. Some were restores that got halted, others not sure. But I've learned the hard way just because the owner says it's all there doesn't mean it's true. There is nothing more frustrating than finding you can't get the thing back together because of missing parts.


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## JimDawson (Aug 10, 2019)

Dudemanrod said:


> 500.00 this person tried to cnc this lathe and gave up on it. He has a new spindle bearings and two spindles with a bunch of new and old parts. Is this a viable project? Or a boat anchor. The price is right



It depends on whether you want a project or a lathe.  If it was local to me, for $500 I would drag it home........ if it has all or most of the original parts with it.  For me, I'm not sure it's worth a road trip to the Bay Area to get it.   To put it back into its original operating condition might be a lot of work.  Why somebody would do that to a HLV-H is beyond me.

If you want a lathe, the Enco might be a better choice.


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## Dudemanrod (Aug 10, 2019)

Thanks for the replies guys I'm going to listen to experience. I'm pretty handy with machines but that seems like it's better for parts for someone. I'm going to learn on the 12x36 and if I feel I need to upgrade then I will.


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## projectnut (Aug 10, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> IMHO you are on the right track. I've seen many basket cases in the Bay Area. Don't know why. Some were restores that got halted, others not sure. *But I've learned the hard way just because the owner says it's all there doesn't mean it's true.* There is nothing more frustrating than finding you can't get the thing back together because of missing parts.



I couldn't agree more.  Back in the 1980's GM made the infamous 350 diesel engine and installed in everything from a pickup truck to a Cadillac.  When they started falling like flies a customer came into my shop with one in tow.  Apparently he had taken it to another shop for repair, but things didn't work out.  The stripped engine block was in the back of the tow truck, along with 5 boxes of parts.  The trunk of the car and back seat were also full of parts.

He wanted me to take on the job of rebuilding and reinstalling the engine insisting that all the parts were there.  He also wanted it done for half the price of R&R and rebuilding the engine since it was already out of the car and disassembled.  I did take on the job, but as a fill in for slow times, but it would be at a "Time and Material" rate rather than half the flat rate. 

As it turned out the customer would probably have been better off to just abandon the project.  The previous garage had lost or broken over $1,000.00 worth of parts.  When the job was completed the cost was close to a factory rebuild, plus the cost of all the missing parts.  I got paid the amount we agreed on, and he went back to the previous shop to try and recover some of the cost.  I don't know how things turned out between him and the other shop, but I learned to NEVER take on a job like that again.


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## C-Bag (Aug 10, 2019)

Yup, you learn fast folks will say anything to dump something on somebody else. And once you are committed it's hard to walk away. And I don't think there's anything worse for me than trying to get rid of a basket case. I have a hard enough time selling anything.


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## Dabbler (Aug 10, 2019)

The working Enco is hands down better BUT for a Hardinge guy, who wouldn't mid parting it out if it is short too many parts, it might be a challenge worth taking.  There *will* be missing parts, some others will be broken or unusable - because - someone had to disassemble it for *some reason*... 

Now it becomes a detective's job to figure out just what's wrong .  Disassembled it is almost impossible, so the sequence will be:

1) reassemble, document all the missing/broken parts. 
2)disassemble.  obtain parts. 
3) reassemble.  find out why it doesn't work.  get the parts to fix the problem. 
4) disassemble, fix
5) reassemble. 

I'm afraid it's only good for parts.

I've been there on the bad side of this.  never again.


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## C-Bag (Aug 10, 2019)

Dabbler said:


> The working Enco is hands down better BUT for a Hardinge guy, who wouldn't mid parting it out if it is short too many parts, it might be a challenge worth taking.  There *will* be missing parts, some others will be broken or unusable - because - someone had to disassemble it for *some reason*...
> 
> Now it becomes a detective's job to figure out just what's wrong .  Disassembled it is almost impossible, so the sequence will be:
> 
> ...


Once again I agree, but add to Dabblers list is maybe fix or make parts. But like I was warned about and found too true,you often need a lathe to make or fix parts for a lathe. This is why many have more than one lathe. If the Enco is ok, and you get an hankering for the Hardinge, keep an eye on it and I wouldn't be surprised if you can get it even cheaper.


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## Toolmaker51 (Aug 10, 2019)

Enco and OK rarely fit the same sentence, same for Jet, Rong Fu and many others. They'll work for any user not accustomed to real machinery. 
And to "why any one would do all that to get a HLV", yet publishes a yard long list of possessions, maybe forgot how he got there. Users appreciate them quickly [and few have stood equal time at a EE.] Used HLV's running or not, pull more cash per pound than anything short of Deckel.
Must be a reason. 
Price a new MB, then a Subaru. Then go to craigs and see what the market says about resale.
Must be a reason.


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## C-Bag (Aug 11, 2019)

I've obviously never spent time working with a HLV or a EE. I get they are "serious" machines and often are priced way out of most hobbyist means. I have no problem with that. It's going to take a long time for me to even fathom what I would be doing that would merit me having a HLV or EE as a hobbyist, in my garage, doing my little projects.

But I spend every morning while I wake up and drink my coffee cruising CL. And I see Hardinge lathes quite often and sometimes they are $1,000 (and times less!) and other times they are multiples of that. Being a noob I can no sooner fathom why one is a $k and the other is $10k. They look so simple as to be from another planet. And the descriptions often don't help.  It's like what they say about buying a MB, if you have to ask you can't afford it. The EE is more conventional and I see how that relates to my present joke lathe.

But when you start talking about MB and Subaru now you're in my wheelhouse. No doubt Benz makes some nice cars and my wife's CLK 320 was fun to drive and was surprisingly easy to maintain. She bought it when it was 5yrs old 60,000mi. Paid $24k, new I thin was $60k. But like every other car when it got 160,000mi on it stuff started to go schwangle. And when you start having to start talking about $100+hr dealer time you can QUICKLY outstrip the "worth". A trans rebuild is min $5k. Used Subaru's depreciate slower here than a Benz, especially when you look at the original price. My neighbor sold his '99 Benz SUV w/160,000mi for $4,500. I couldn't find a Subaru w/that few miles and the few I found were around that price.

So TM51, I get you're a professional and you have worked on professional machinery and you know and appreciate good machinery. But I know of very few mechanics who would have taken my wife's car as a basket case because I took it all apart because I wanted to chop and lower it and just tired, but it's all there!!!! Much less somebody just getting into the field and just wants to have a functional driver.

I think Jim nailed it when he said "you want a lathe or a project?" And he admitted if he didn't have brave the BA traffic to get it he would haul it home. But he and you TM51 have the chops to fix it and appreciate it.


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## Dabbler (Aug 11, 2019)

I think you can take it to the bank that if someone's selling a lathe like the Hardinge cheap, there's usually a good reason.  Once in a blue moon it is a fine machine but there's a moving deadline looming, or something, but usually not

(I got a $12000 mill, lightly used, so worth about $5000 for $2200 last year because of a lease running out)

You can do decent hobby work on the enco, and will be able to get most of the value out of it if/when you desire a more capable machine.


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## mmcmdl (Aug 11, 2019)

I've NEVER seen a HLV-H for anywhere near a grand . Usually start out around $6000 and head north from there .


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## C-Bag (Aug 11, 2019)

To be clear, like I said I don't understand the letter designations so I see the pic of a Hardinge and the price. I've seen several for a grand and one was right here in town. It was the same place that sold a complete Maxmill for $500. The Maxmill sold in about a week and the Hardinge took over a month. Is there someplace on the net that can explain the different model Hardinge?


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## Dudemanrod (Aug 11, 2019)

Lathes.co.uk


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## JimDawson (Aug 11, 2019)

Toolmaker51 said:


> And to "why any one would do all that to get a HLV", yet publishes a yard long list of possessions, maybe forgot how he got there.



You misunderstood my statement there.   The actual quote is: _''Why somebody would do that to a HLV-H is beyond me.''_   Meaning: I don't understand why someone would pretty much destroy a HLV-H like that.  If I wanted to convert a manual lathe to CNC a HLV-H would not be my first choice.  If I had room for another project, I would be tempted to make a road trip and drag the HLV-H home to restore just because I don't have one.


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## JimDawson (Aug 11, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> To be clear, like I said I don't understand the letter designations so I see the pic of a Hardinge and the price. I've seen several for a grand and one was right here in town. It was the same place that sold a complete Maxmill for $500. The Maxmill sold in about a week and the Hardinge took over a month. Is there someplace on the net that can explain the different model Hardinge?



http://www.lathes.co.uk/hardinge/  Here is a pretty good writeup.


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## C-Bag (Aug 11, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> I don't understand why someone would pretty much destroy a HLV-H like that.  If I wanted to convert a manual lathe to CNC a HLV-H would not be my first choice.



THIS! In reading up, why would you pull the bearings on one?

Now as I get a clue (thx for the link) even though there is one in LA for $1500 and one in Petaluma for $1000, the way the universe works by the time I get it they will either be gone or into the stratosphere........


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## jdedmon91 (Aug 11, 2019)

My two cents is go with a working lathe, the Enco’s are decent lathes, one of my friends has one. The up side they are easy to fit in smaller shops. 

The ideal situation is upon examining the Hardinge if the seller is correct and your willing to put in a bunch of work, is to purchase it use the Enco to help make parts, then you’d have an awesome lathe cheap. Of course you’d need the space, time, and cash to do so 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Toolmaker51 (Aug 11, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> You misunderstood my statement there.  The actual quote is: _''Why somebody would do that to a HLV-H is beyond me.''_   Meaning: I don't understand why someone would pretty much destroy a HLV-H like that.  If I wanted to convert a manual lathe to CNC a HLV-H would not be my first choice.  If I had room for another project, I would be tempted to make a road trip and drag the HLV-H home to restore just because I don't have one.


Yes, I did.  Too reactionary for a clear phrase; a honed response more appropriate for certain wads @ Practi-Machi, IYKWIM. I understand their viewpoint of fine capital equipment and tooling; years of running what SOMEONE else paid for, installed, maintains, etc.
Things change when you brown-bag lunches, skip certain events and schedule vacation trips back hauling a lathe, mill or what ever fits your process improvement scheme.
Yessir, that I understand even more clearly.
Hardinge has surprisingly few lathe models, simplicity, likely good interchangeability, and excellent design features. C-Bag reports plenty of opportunities in his locale. fittingly with aircraft, aerospace, medical, and electro-mechanics as prevalent industries. Seem rare in other realms. 'Heavy' shops liked the EE, such as the Navy, mold shops and at least one firearm plant. . .
I worked at a shop repairing printing and paper industry machinery. Everything was import [not Japan] and just plain depressing to start and run, even large supposedly heavy-duty lathes. 
Yeah heavy dooty alright;


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Aug 11, 2019)

Toolmaker51 said:


> Yeah heavy dooty alright;


Bahahahahahaha


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## Aaron_W (Aug 11, 2019)

Aren't a lot of the "cheap" Hardinge lathes chucker or turret lathes not really suitable for hobby use which is why they are cheap? Now a very narrow, and somewhat obsolete use in a commercial CNC world? I've seen a few posts of people lamenting the mutilation of them in an effort to turn a specialty lathe into a general purpose lathe for a home shop.

I know this doesn't apply to all Hardinge lathes.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 12, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> THIS! In reading up, why would you pull the bearings on one?
> 
> Now as I get a clue (thx for the link) even though there is one in LA for $1500 and one in Petaluma for $1000, the way the universe works by the time I get it they will either be gone or into the stratosphere........



If the one you mention in Petaluma is the purple lathe in Sebastopol (about 20 min from Petaluma) it has been identified by another member as a "chucker" lathe meant for repetitive work, and apparently not terribly useful for us hobby guys. That seems to be how it goes with the cheap Hardinge lathes, basket case or wrong type.


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## JimDawson (Aug 12, 2019)

There was a local guy that had a Hardinge chucker lathe for sale, wanted $250 for it.  I looked at it and declined because it had a semi-fixed ''carriage''.  Some other guy bought it, and the funny thing was I saw it on Ebay about a week later for $6000, then about a month later for $1000, then down to $750.  Later I saw it back on Craigslist for $250, I wonder if he ever sold it.  Just because it said Hardinge on it he thought he was going to make some money.  The potential buyers knew more about the equipment than the seller did.


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## macardoso (Aug 12, 2019)

I have an ENCO 12x36 (different model from that one) and have been very happy with it. Paid $1120 for it. It has worked great since I got it. It may be an import, but it works well, has cheap replacement parts available (Grizzly), and didn't require any work beyond cleaning to get it running.


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## Toolmaker51 (Aug 12, 2019)

there really isn't anything unsuitable about chuckers or turrets for hobbyists. what happens is the 'kit' gets broken up at sale or auction by un-versed agents, and the comparatively odd tooling which make them efficient is nowhere to be seen. The only [seems real anyway] lack is a tailstock, everybody see pictures and think lathe work is on centers a much higher percentage of time than reality. a bed turret _could _run centers if there were a ram turret as part of the machine. i'll bet as well many readers could fab a serviceable tailstock - get busy do a lot of work, while another feller awaits an engine lathe. 
there are engine lathes with accessory ram turrets which work out configured exactly as described. 
btw. ram turret rotates end-cutting tools along the centerline of spindle rotation; to center drill, drill, countersink, ream tap etc, and limited od turning with hollow mills [like a thick holesaw]. bed turret [aka chucker] isn't far from a engine lathe carriage and rotating toolpost, just the tools aren't tied together. it does take a bigger handful of holders, but can be shop made.
sorry. no upper case text this evening. onehanding letters right handed while left protects a handsome burrito from two good pretenders at starving. one shown in lawn chair to the left.
you think he looks serious there; that ain't nuthin! 

secret about machine pricing. at this instant hardinge. parties at the smart end know hardinge symbolizes and is 1st rate performance. built in collet spindle, big clear dials, zippy rpm changes, big fat e-a-s-y to clean bedway, hardened no less, all on a spiffy bench. . .you can tic off all kinds of positives. 
the biggest you'll never know until you move one; they hardly weigh anything. not intimidating to round up a pallet jack, flatbed trailer and a handful of ratchet tiedowns. wouldn't call it portable, but 1/3 that of EE's, southbends, half or so of a enco/ jet/ grizzly.


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## Bob Korves (Aug 13, 2019)

Toolmaker51 said:


> The only [seems real anyway] lack is a tailstock, everybody see pictures and think lathe work is on centers a much higher percentage of time than reality. a bed turret _could _run centers if there were a ram turret as part of the machine.


I think the biggest things missing on chuckers for having an all around useful lathe in a hobby setting is lead screws, especiallly screw making lead screws.


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