# Logan backgear shifting difficult



## Jack C. (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm new to the forum & metalworking. I recently bought a Logan/wards 10" lathe and an cleaning & painting it. The backgear is very hard to shift. I did read and try Scott Logans advice about removing and reinstalling the shift rod but the gears aren't moving like they should. When I do get the gears meshed it works good. I was trying to avoid pulling the headstock off so I thought maybe you guys had some ideas. Thanks for your help.

Jack C.


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## TomKro (Nov 27, 2013)

Jack C.:
Since you had the rack out, I'm assuming that the rod is clean and lubed.  Is there any chance the rod itself has some sort of bend in it?
Have you checked the mating pinion to make sure there's nothing between the teeth, jamming things up?
Maybe some spray lube on the ends where the assembly pivots might help.  Not sure if you can see the ends of the bushings with everything assembled.  

Hopefully, someone else can suggest something else, before you have to pull the whole thing apart. 
Good luck,
TomKro


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## Redlineman (Nov 27, 2013)

Hey;

Good start on reading the adjustment procedure. It does take some fiddling, and is certainly much easier when the headstock is off. You can get the thing lined up to where it goes in, but also has a LOT of gear lash. If you play with it, you can get it set with much less lash, but this also comes at the price of it being potentially more difficult to GET engaged.

You state they work well when locked in, so your problem is that it is hard to ENGAGE the back gears, yes? That can be a little tricky in my limited experience. 

I might say that it would be nice to be able to verify that your shifter and back gear sleeve and end caps were clean and well lubricated. the shfiter is easy, but there's only one way to determine that with the shaft... I would want to make sure these were all clean and well lubricated. that back gear shaft is right at the bottom where all the gunk settles, and there is no way to lubricate it externally. To shift it, you are counting on being able to catch and "swing" the eccentric back gear shaft up and around into position. It would be a lot tougher if things were not free moving. It can also be helpful to spin the spindle to help catch and engage the back gears. Raising the lid and taking tension off the flat belt while rotating the spindle might help.

All of this is coming from someone who has his headstock up on a table, not from actual use. It is relatively easy to reach down in and manipulate the back gear shaft and coax it into place in that state. Still, I can do it from the top without cheating and just reaching under to push the back shaft upwards. I'm hoping to find out one of these days for real!


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## Chuck K (Nov 27, 2013)

I guess my question would be:  When you have the rack out of the machine and just try to engage the backgear by reaching inside and rotating it by hand, does everything move freely?  There shouldn't be any binding at all.  When everything is right it should almost fall into place.  I'm working on the assumption that you have the gears meshing correctly when your trying to engage them.  If you decide to take the backgear shaft out to clean and lubricate it, you can make adjusting it a lot easier by milling a slot in the end of the shaft.  It's nice to be able to rotate the shaft with screwdriver and then hold it in place while you tighten the locking collar on the back of the rack.

Chuck


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## Terrywerm (Nov 27, 2013)

Everything TomKro and Redlineman told you is correct.  I've got a 10" Logan and it shifts easily, but sometimes the gears will not engage easily, due to the teeth hitting each other. If you find that your rod moves easily, and the back gear pivot shaft moves easily, then all you need to do is (as already suggested) lift the belt cover so that you can manually rotate the spindle by hand. Rotate it slowly while pulling in the back gears and it will usually slide right into place. I usually also pull the bull gear pin prior to pulling in the back gears as well. 

Now, if you are finding that the back gear rod and pivot shaft are not moving easily, your best bet will be to remove the headstock so that you can clean and lube the pivots. There is no way to get at it when the headstock  is on the lathe.


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## Redlineman (Nov 28, 2013)

Chuck K said:


> It's nice to be able to rotate the shaft with screwdriver and then hold it in place while you tighten the locking collar on the back of the rack.


Hmmmm....

I'm not seeing what you are referring to here in terms of its usefulness? I assume you mean while synchronizing the shifter? I did mine only a couple of weeks ago, and my feeble brain has already dumped what I learned then. I don't want to miss out on any neat tricks! As I recall, once I had the teeth meshed, and was happy with the lash, I simply locked the collar with about 1/16" free gap from when the latch key popped into lock position.

I had to go back down to the basement last night and refresh said feeble brain on how it all worked before I posted at all. As I had recalled, the only issue for me in getting back gears engaged is whether the gear teeth are meshing. If they are it slips right in. If not, a little turn of the spindle finds a mesh point quickly. I suppose it bears mentioning that you never want to do ANYTHING with the back gears while the lathe is running. Given the sorry state my lathe was in (mine HAD no shifter, etc), I wonder how many times someone shifted it on the fly?

Then again, that is probably an obvious answer.... ONCE!


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## Redlineman (Nov 28, 2013)

Since we are on the subject;

It occurs to me that the lack of any real ability to lube the back gear shaft sleeve bushings, and the difficulty in getting that shaft out for periodic maintenance, is unfortunate. I had been toying with drilling and tapping a small hole in the outer sleeve so that I could drizzle some oil in there that would find its way out to the bushings. A very short bolt would be used as the hole plug.

Opinions?


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## Chuck K (Nov 28, 2013)

Redlineman said:


> Hmmmm....
> 
> I'm not seeing what you are referring to here in terms of its usefulness? I assume you mean while synchronizing the shifter? I did mine only a couple of weeks ago, and my feeble brain has already dumped what I learned then. I don't want to miss out on any neat tricks! As I recall, once I had the teeth meshed, and was happy with the lash, I simply locked the collar with about 1/16" free gap from when the latch key popped into lock position.
> 
> ...



I saw this posted on the Logan forum.  I had mine apart at the time so I milled the slot in the end of the shaft as was suggested.  I found it to be real helpful when the machine is together and your trying to tweek the gear lash.  It's real simple to do when you have your headstock sitting on the bench and you can get your paws inside to rotate and hold it in position....for myself I found that to be a little more trying when the machine is assembled.  I just do it now when I have one apart...it doesn't take much to do it.  As far as engaging on the fly, I would think it would be kind of tough on the fingers trying to catch that knob on the bull gear to disengage it while its spinning.  Of course if you just engaged the back gear without pulling the knob out, things would slow down rapidly.)


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## Jack C. (Nov 28, 2013)

Thanks to everyone for all the great tips!! I bit the bullet and pulled the headstock. Boy you guys were right, a ton of gunk under there. When I got everything cleaned up I was able to get the shifter to work easily. I'm glad I took the headstock off cause now I understand how the gears are supposed to work. Also there was no toolpost with this lathe. Any suggestions on what to look for?
Since I'm just starting out should I try to find an old style simple holder to learn on? Thanks again for the help & Happy Thanksgiving to All.

Jack C.


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## Terrywerm (Nov 28, 2013)

Lantern toolposts should be pretty easy to find, and pretty cheap, too. Some of the old-time purists prefer the lantern type, but I prefer the quick change tool post, similar to an Aloris.  Phase II makes a nice Aloris clone, available from many sources. 

There are two types of QCTP, wedge or piston.   The piston type pushes outward against the tool holder, locking it against the dovetail.  The wedge type is claimed to be a bit more ridged, and better for repeatability. It has one side of the dovetail that moves in a wedge fashion to lock the toolholder.  You might want to search out some of the threads here about QCTP's, as quite a bit has been written about them.


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## Chuck K (Nov 28, 2013)

Redlineman said:


> Since we are on the subject;
> 
> It occurs to me that the lack of any real ability to lube the back gear shaft sleeve bushings, and the difficulty in getting that shaft out for periodic maintenance, is unfortunate. I had been toying with drilling and tapping a small hole in the outer sleeve so that I could drizzle some oil in there that would find its way out to the bushings. A very short bolt would be used as the hole plug.
> 
> Opinions?




I guess it couldn't hurt.  The shaft runs on oil impregnated bushings.  If you have it apart you're probably going to clean and oil it before you reassemble it. I don't run my lathes in backgear a high percentage of the time so it isn't really an issue for me. I've taken a few of those shafts out and I haven't found any extreme wear even on some pretty used and abused machines.  I can guarantee you if Logan had put oilers back there, the only time they would have seen any lube would have been at the factory.  The coolest addition of oilers I've seen is on the saddle fore and aft of the wipers.  I haven't personally done it but the Sheldon lathe I have now has them.  They appear to be original equipment.  When I read the thread about doing it on a Logan I didn't think much about because I use way oil liberally on my machines.  After using them on the Sheldon I'm really sold on the idea.  It's pretty impressive to see how well it keeps the ways lubed.

Chuck


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## Redlineman (Nov 28, 2013)

Chuck K said:


> I saw this posted on the Logan forum.  I had mine apart at the time so I milled the slot in the end of the shaft as was suggested.  I found it to be real helpful when the machine is together and your trying to tweek the gear lash.


Hmmmm...

I can see it might be helpful. It's probably obvious, but I'm not seeing it. So, to get a mental picture. Where do you mill the slot? Or... a real picture? 

edit....
.... alright... you keep posting about all these cool mods. How 'bout some links to help a fella out with this neat stuff???  )


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## Chuck K (Nov 28, 2013)

"Since I'm just starting out should I try to find an old style simple holder to learn on? Thanks again for the help & Happy Thanksgiving to All."

Like Terry said, lantern toolposts are plentiful, but unless someone is giving it to you I wouldn't waste any money on one.  It's just a pia setting up your tool everytime you change it.  I realize I'm leaving myself open to the purists who'll tell you that in some instances the lantern post will allow more versatility....ok, I have drawer full of them and they never get used. Look at Shars.com or CDCO for an AXA set.  They're cheap and they work.  You can always upgrade to a higher quality version later, but you probably won't want to.

Chuck


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## Redlineman (Nov 28, 2013)

Good show, Jack;

These machines are simple enough that the price for tearing into things is usually small, and you learn a whole lot about how it all works. That makes it a lot easier to figure out when there is some issue or symptom to diagnose. Perfect time to clean everything really well, check for bushing wear, polish the bushing lands, and lube things up good. There's nothing nicer than having everything spinning free and easy. Do spend some good time fiddling with alignment though. You can just throw things back in, but time spent getting the spacing right so gears don't rub together will pay off in the end.

Tool posts. Yeh, I think it's a good idea to spend some time with an old lantern style, and they can be had for next to dirt. Mostly you will learn quickly how critical good alignment is for cutting. Having said that, I simply did not have the patience for very long, and grabbed a Phase II wedge type. Seems to be decent enough quality at a nice price. To save you all the reading, AXA/100 is the size you want (the small one).


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## stevecmo (Nov 28, 2013)

Redlineman said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> I can see it might be helpful. It's probably obvious, but I'm not seeing it. So, to get a mental picture. Where do you mill the slot? Or... a real picture?
> 
> ...




The slot goes in the end of the shaft with the back gears.  It makes it easy to put a screwdriver in the slot to turn the shaft while adjusting the gear engagement.  Since I didn't have a mill when I refurb'd the lathe, I just cut a slot in the shaft with a hack saw.  

Here's a link to the Logan Yahoo list......I assume that's what you're looking for.

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lathe-list/info

Hope that helps.

Steve


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## Redlineman (Nov 28, 2013)

No...

I'm a member. I was looking for a more direct route than an endless search through hundreds of posts in dozens of back gear threads. I did not see direct reference to that mod anywhere. Could be right in front of my face, but I didn't see it.

Now it suddenly occurs to me (bink.. light comes on!) that the slot goes in the change gear end, since that bushing is open ended. For some reason all I had a mental picture of was the front bushing, which is close-ended. Obviously a slot does no good there, eh?


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## Chuck K (Nov 28, 2013)

"edit....
.... alright... you keep posting about all these cool mods. How 'bout some links to help a fella out with this neat stuff??? )"

Looks like Steve found the original post about slotting the shaft.  I probably saw the post about the oilers for the saddle on the l
Logan site too...but I don't remember.  If nobody posts the link I'll take some pics of the saddle on my Sheldon tomorrow.


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## Scruffy (Nov 28, 2013)

If your new and just starting out were in the same boat!!! If you really want to use a lantern tool post I'll mail u one for the postage.  When u get tired of screwing with it all the time,  and u will just send it back

Do u have any tool holders for a latern post?

If not, by the time you would buy a left, right ,straight, cut off holder.  You could buy a 125.00 qc.     And they come with everything you'll need.  Ac. Will speed up your learning imnsely. Not fiddling trying to keep tool centered and right height while tighting lantern.

 Jmop. Scruffy


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## Chuck K (Nov 28, 2013)

"Now it suddenly occurs to me (bink.. light comes on!) that the slot goes in the change gear end, since that bushing is open ended. For some reason all I had a mental picture of was the front bushing, which is close-ended. Obviously a slot does no good there, eh?"

Correct....I didn't actually follow the link Steve posted, but if it isn't the actual thread about the slotted shaft you could spend a lot of time searching for it.  I don't have any pics and the lathes went done the road a long time ago.  Basically just put a slot in the end of the shaft that fits your favorite screwdriver and you're good to go.

Chuck


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## Redlineman (Nov 28, 2013)

Hey;

That link just goes to the group. I looked through every thread with back gears mentioned in the title, and it did not jump out at me. Likely buried in one of them. Considering that it appears that back gears are one of the topics of greatest angst, this mod would be a good thing to make available to and easily searchable for people.


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## Chuck K (Nov 29, 2013)

Here's a pic of the apron oilers I was telling you about.  Others have drilled the apron on their Logans and installed them.  This Sheldon appears to have had them originally.  They really do a nice job of lubing the ways.  It wouldn't be real hard to add them on most lathes.


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## 9FINGERS (Nov 30, 2013)

Jack C. said:


> I'm new to the forum & metalworking. I recently bought a Logan/wards 10" lathe and an cleaning & painting it. The backgear is very hard to shift. I did read and try Scott Logans advice about removing and re-installing the shift rod but the gears aren't moving like they should. When I do get the gears meshed it works good. I was trying to avoid pulling the headstock off so I thought maybe you guys had some ideas. Thanks for your help.
> 
> Jack C.



jack,
I am a newbie with this too, I think I had a similar problem. I had to learn on my own, try to pull and unlock the pin to unlock the forward gears. essentially putting it in neutral. this pin is located on the side of the gear nearest to the  your chuck.
and or be sure to clean all gears you can find, then of coarse re-lubricate them.  I have found a lot of information about these things on Utube. 
  what color are you painting it? 
hope this helps
good luck with your project !
Dennis


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## Bill C. (Nov 30, 2013)

Redlineman said:


> Hmmmm....
> 
> I'm not seeing what you are referring to here in terms of its usefulness? I assume you mean while synchronizing the shifter? I did mine only a couple of weeks ago, and my feeble brain has already dumped what I learned then. I don't want to miss out on any neat tricks! As I recall, once I had the teeth meshed, and was happy with the lash, I simply locked the collar with about 1/16" free gap from when the latch key popped into lock position.
> 
> ...



You don't want to try to shift your lathe in or out of back gear with the spindle is rotating.  

I used to engage the back gear to remove chucks that screwed on.  I placed a piece of plywood on the ways in case I dropped the chuck.  It is normal for a lathe when in back gear to rattle some compared to straight drive.  Make sure to either oil or use a little grease on the gear teeth.  Bringing back some fond memories.


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## Jack C. (Nov 30, 2013)

9FINGERS said:


> jack,
> I am a newbie with this too, I think I had a similar problem. I had to learn on my own, try to pull and unlock the pin to unlock the forward gears. essentially putting it in neutral. this pin is located on the side of the gear nearest to the  your chuck.
> and or be sure to clean all gears you can find, then of coarse re-lubricate them.  I have found a lot of information about these things on Utube.
> what color are you painting it?
> ...



Thanks Dennis. Gear shifts fine now that I got all the gunk removed. I am using Benjamin Moore oil base industrial enamel. The color is "Baby Seal Black" #2119-30. Someone had posted this info and the color matches perfect with some of the hidden areas that still had intact paint. I'll post some pics when I get everything finished.

Jack C.


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## Redlineman (Dec 1, 2013)

Hey;

I wish that BM offered a hardener for this stuff. I was tempted to use some from a different manufacturer - how much different can the chemistry be? - but let it slide. It dries REALLY SLOWLY, and not all that hard. Not very solvent resistant, at least in the short term. Who knows how hard it will get.... some day.

For reference, I've seen original lathes that ranged from a pale grey blue to almost black. Environment seems to have played a large role in what this soft old paint ended up looking like decades on. Here are some views of my color documentation efforts;




From under the nameplate.




Tops of the legs.




Benjamin Moore color chip.




My refurbed headstock. Slightly lighter than it looks in the chip, and pretty close to original. Very complex and handsome color, I think.


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## Chuck K (Dec 1, 2013)

That's a nice looking color.  I'm with you on the slow drying time for the BM paint.  I used their urethane alkyd on an 11" Logan a couple of years ago.  I had to let the parts sit for a couple of weeks before I reassembled it. Even then, it was still soft.  It does harden up eventually.  I just use the rustoleum now and brush it on.  If I was going to spray another one, I would use the benny moore, it lays out really nice.


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