# 5c Collet Holder Rack System



## mksj (Dec 18, 2015)

I got started collecting 5C collets about 2 years ago when I got my lathe with a 5C chuck. Had little experience with 5C and had been using an ER-32 system in my mill. So started out with a basic Lyndex 5C collet setup by 1/16th that I picked up on eBay.

After awhile, I started having issues with the limited clamping range of the 5c collets (i.e. nil), and so started collecting some more collets through the next year.  Finally was able to get a full set of 1/64th collets. The problem has been where to store them, since I have very limited space and no more draws to stick them. Well, I ended up getting a rack for the outer cabinet on my lathe. First one, then a second, and finally a third (Enco sales). Of course every one would be slightly different and a different color. So cleaned them all up and sprayed them with some gunmetal colored spray paint, which was fairly close to my PM1340GT cabinet color, albeit the later is not metallic. Anyway with 3 racks fitting nicely on the outer side of the cabinet.  I have been using a LatheMaster 5C tru-set chuck, which trued up fairly well, but the chuck body wobbled quite a bit. I ended up turning down the chuck outer body and D1-4 backing plate. Works OK, but pretty slow with the collet changes. The other drawback with the 5C collets is that even with a collet stop to position the work material, the Y axis position changes as you tighten down the work piece. I do not trust the reproducibility of turning multiple pieces by just using the stop.   Might try an ER system down the line, as they seem to give a tighter hold the the 5C. Anyway, these are the 5C collets racks on my machine. The racks take up almost no space, and are handily available when I am using the lathe.


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## RJSakowski (Dec 18, 2015)

A nice neat layout.  I will have to travel that same path sooner or later.


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## Bob Korves (Dec 18, 2015)

mksj said:


> (snip)  The other drawback with the 5C collets is that even with a collet stop to position the work material, the Y axis position changes as you tighten down the work piece. I do not trust the reproducibility of turning multiple pieces by just using the stop


The Y axis position changes?  The Y axis is up and down on a lathe.  It sounds like you might be speaking of the Z axis, which is in and out of the spindle or collet?


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## alloy (Dec 18, 2015)

Great idea.  I have one of those collet racks.  Tomorrow it will be mounted like yours is.


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## kd4gij (Dec 18, 2015)

I have used 5c collets with a lever collet closer and repeatable was with in a couple tenths. With a scroll chuck if you are using ground stock it should still be less than .001


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## brino (Dec 18, 2015)

mksj,

Thanks for sharing your storage idea. I need all of those I can get!

-brino


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## David VanNorman (Dec 18, 2015)

Darn nice set up . The er40 collets  can handle the off size better than the 5c . It is still a great set up.


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## wrat (Dec 19, 2015)

Bob Korves said:


> The Y axis position changes?  The Y axis is up and down on a lathe.  It sounds like you might be speaking of the Z axis, which is in and out of the spindle or collet?


Wow, that's news to me.  Lathes are generally XY machines unless they have active milling which can introduce Z or even A and B.  Or at least that's what i've seen.

But then, i guess it doesn't really matter.  A guy can set it up however it suits.  If it's your shop and it works for you then there's no wrong answer.

Wrat


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## wrat (Dec 19, 2015)

First off, what a slick setup. 
Remember, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  You're about to be flattered in many shops.



mksj said:


> The other drawback with the 5C collets is that even with a collet stop to position the work material, the Y axis position changes as you tighten down the work piece. I do not trust the reproducibility of turning multiple pieces by just using the stop.


This I find odd. 

Obviously, the collet draws in.  And that can have the appearance of movement.  But if it's truly moving, i don't think the problem is with the collet as it is with the stop.  Many jillions of pieces have been successfully machined to exacting dims using a collet and stop. So the technique has a solid trustworthy track record.  It's just a matter of (probably building) the right hardware.

Wrat


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## Bob Korves (Dec 19, 2015)

wrat said:


> Wow, that's news to me.  Lathes are generally XY machines unless they have active milling which can introduce Z or even A and B.  Or at least that's what i've seen.
> 
> But then, i guess it doesn't really matter.  A guy can set it up however it suits.  If it's your shop and it works for you then there's no wrong answer.
> 
> Wrat


Z is always the axis in line with the spindle, on any machine.  You can certainly call them anything you want in your shop, just please don't try to confuse us...
http://yarchive.net/metal/axis_naming.html


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## RJSakowski (Dec 19, 2015)

kd4gij said:


> I have used 5c collets with a lever collet closer and repeatable was with in a couple tenths. With a scroll chuck if you are using ground stock it should still be less than .001


This is only true if you have consistent diameters.  For every .001" in reduced diameter, the collet is drawn in further by about .003".


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## mksj (Dec 19, 2015)

The Y axis is based on my DRO reading change of the carriage, or longitudinal change, but Bob is correct that on the lathe this is technically the Z axis on the lathe (sorry neophyte hare). In any case, the 5C collet chuck draws in the piece by about 0.004" per 1/4 turn in the unit I have. If you are holding stock that is slightly under the collet size (between the 1/64th increment), there can be a bit of a variation in the final key position with repeat use. Sometimes you might torque a little more or less with these types of chucks. So it is fairly easy to be off a few thousandth in the longitudinal position of repeat pieces using a collet stop that threads into the back of the 5C collet with this type of chuck. I was making a number of duplicate parts, and noticed some variation in the lengths. A collet closure system would be expected to be more repeatable, since the applied pressure/set point is more repeatable. An ER system I find is more secure with a wider clamping area and has a wider diameter clamping envelope for a given collet size. As I have only used this on the mill, I can't comment as to better/worse on a lathe, but I expect it to hold rods better. On more than one occasion, I have had a rod twist when cutting threads with a 5C collet. Just some observations with the 5C collets.


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## RJSakowski (Dec 19, 2015)

A 5C collet, like an R8 collet, has a single pivot point as the collet closes down.  For undersized stock the collet grasps first and hardest at the end, gradually drawing down as the collet is tightened.  

An ER collet and other double angle type collets have two pivot points which allows the collet to close uniformly along its length.  If piece of stock approaching the lower limits of the closing diameter is mounted in a 5C collet, this single point grip is noticeable if you pull the stock from side to side.  Additionally, the collet is only gripping at the three points where the slits are located.

I suspect the the OP has seen this and is why he has amassed the large collet collection he has.


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## wrat (Dec 19, 2015)

Bob Korves said:


> Z is always the axis in line with the spindle, on any machine.  You can certainly call them anything you want in your shop, just please don't try to confuse us...
> http://yarchive.net/metal/axis_naming.html


Sounds like that might not require much.

But you did, after all, provide a link and everything, to a blogger that agrees with you.  So while I should doubtless bow out in the face of such all-inclusive expertise, I'll just allow you to explain that to the likes of Boeing -- not that they'd listen to you or your blogger-friend. Of course, I have a difficult problem there because it's not exactly *my* shop, either.

So sure, attack me all you want.  But notice i prefaced it on my experience; and shy away from obtuse generalities like "always".  You may have inspected every machine in the world, but i have not, so using words like "always" is something i avoid.

When you get up to integrating and programming 5, 6, and 9 axis machines, you be sure to come set me straight.  I'll probably need it by then.

Wrat
.


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## Bob Korves (Dec 19, 2015)

No attack from _this_ end, Wrat.  Just trying to communicate in a common language...


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## planeflyer21 (Dec 23, 2015)

That's a great rack setup for your collets.

Plenty of room for adding hex 5Cs too.


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## toolroom (Dec 23, 2015)

Very smart thinking, and very professional. Great job!


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## machman2k (Dec 28, 2015)

It would seem to me that if you use a "spindle stop" (which locks into the spindle) and not a "collet stop" (which locks into the collet itself), you would have no more creep problems. Easy solution, and besides, it works with most other chucks ( 3 jaw, 4 jaw, etc.) as well.

Reference the following post: 
*Lathe Headstock Work Stop G0602*


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## mksj (Dec 29, 2015)

In theory a spindle stop should work, but it would be difficult get it to fit into the different sized collet and there may be some flex to the rod. There are work arounds using a collet stops, just not as accurate for repeat work as I found out. A collet closer I would expect to be more repeatable.


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## kingmt01 (Dec 30, 2015)

I didn't know locating a part inside of the chuck would be z ether. Altho each axis can be referenced to different depending on your perspective they do have a common way of looking at them. so I'd think when locating a part it would be referenced the same way as the machines axis. So in locating the tool on the x axis wouldn't it seem logical to locate the part from the same prospective?

I always assumed that when your talking about a lathe the axis was referring to locating the work from the tools prospective. Is this not correct? If so logically z would be the tools height wouldn't it?


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## RIMSPOKE (Jan 17, 2016)

I got started collecting 5C collets about 2 years ago when I got my lathe with a 5C chuck. Had little experience with 5C and had been using an ER-32 system in my mill. So started out with a basic Lyndex 5C collet setup by 1/16th that I picked up on eBay.

NICE RACKS . 
YOU CAN GET 5c COLLETS GOING UP TO 1 1/8"  

GOOD TO SEE YOU HAVE SOME EXTRA SPACE FOR SQUARE & HEX SETS IF YOU DECIDE TO FILL THE EMPTY SPACES . 
I HAD TO GET AN EXTRA RACK FOR THOSE .  MINE ARE ALL HARDINGE BRAND WITH A FEW YEARS ON THEM .


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