# Smaller Kurt Vises Are So Expensive!



## wildo (Jul 23, 2016)

What am I missing here? I can get on ebay and find Kurt D60 vises selling for $250 or so all day long. But when a random D50 (or D40 or D30 even) pop up, people want $350++ for them. Why are the smaller vises much more than the larger ones? I think a D60 (or A60) is just a bit too large for my Millrite machine and the 5" version would fit much better. But not when I can get a 6" for at least $100 less! I _must_ be missing something...


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## wrmiller (Jul 23, 2016)

D60s are a dime a dozen, you said so yourself. Supply and demand?

I manage to find a 5" a while back, and I paid a bit more than $250 for it, but it is in great shape.


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## wildo (Jul 23, 2016)

wrmiller said:


> D60s are a dime a dozen, you said so yourself. Supply and demand?



Right, but that's exactly my question. Is it simply that the D/A60s are so popular that they're cheaper to purchase than the smaller D/A50 units? Generally speaking, a slightly smaller item is a bit cheaper than the bigger brother, though I can think of exceptions (Wilton baby bullet, for example). But in the Wilton example, I think that the Baby Bullet is _actually_ more rare and collectable. Are people collecting Kurt A50s?? I mean- I'm brand new to this, so I don't have any history to fall back on. I could see the D30, perhaps, being a bit novel and thus more expensive- but the 5" version just doesn't _seem_ so interesting to me to command a much higher price than the bigger 6" versions. So I guess I was asking if the D/A50s are, in fact, kind of novel.


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## wrmiller (Jul 23, 2016)

I wouldn't say 'novel', just harder to find in good condition and therefor worth more (to some). Same as some older, out-of-production quality machines commanding a higher than normal price (to some).


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## wildo (Jul 23, 2016)

Got it; that makes sense. Thanks for the info!


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## Charles Spencer (Jul 23, 2016)

I think that another thing may be the fact that hobby machinists tend to buy smaller sizes and then keep them.  A lot of stuff on ebay is from commercial shops.  

I know that a 6" vise would be too large for my Chinese mill/drill or my antique horizontal mill.  

I know I can buy a South Bend  16" lathe almost any day for a much lower price than an SB 10.


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## mikey (Jul 23, 2016)

I think its supply and demand, too. Most Kurt vises were/are sold to machine shops and from what I understand Kurt did not sell enough of the 5" to keep up production. Now that they are no longer made there are fewer of them on the used market. It turns out that the 5" and 4" versions fit our hobby class mills better so if we want them we have to pay the price.

I just bought a 4" Kurt on Amazon, for the same amount that a 6" cost. Stupid but there it is.


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## wildo (Jul 23, 2016)

Thanks guys! Glad to hear that, while silly, at least the prices I'm seeing are reasonable then.


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## wawoodman (Jul 23, 2016)

You might look at the 5" Glacern. I'm very happy with mine.


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## DoogieB (Jul 24, 2016)

As other's have stated, on most hobby shop mills the table is too small for a 6" Kurt as you get too much overhang at the back so you will lose Y travel on the table.  Usually a 5" vise is ideal, but Kurt hasn't made that one in years hence the high price.  Many of the imported models are garbage, so you have to be careful when shopping.  Just like the chuck on a lathe, your mill vise is usually your primary work holder and it's not a good place to cheap-out.

Conquest makes the 5" Mini-Mag vise and I believe it's the only 5" vise still made in the USA.  I have one and I like it.  Tormach also sells a company-branded version of the same vise.


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## wildo (Jul 25, 2016)

Thanks for all your suggestions! Because of this thread- learning that these prices are actually not entirely out of line, kind of an "it is what it is" sort of thing- I went ahead and picked up a Kurt A50 in very nice condition for $280 (and a super unfortunate $100 shipping). Probably a pretty good deal on the vise, though with shipping accounted for: probably only an "ok" deal. Either way, I need the vise to move to the next step in my journey and just didn't want a massive 6" vise hanging over the 8" table...


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## wrmiller (Jul 25, 2016)

Well done!


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## Bob Korves (Jul 26, 2016)

The D50 will be perfect for your Millrite, wildo.


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## wildo (Jul 26, 2016)

Bob Korves said:


> The D50 will be perfect for your Millrite, wildo.



That's what I figured.  The 6" just seemed way to big for it, but the 4" seemed kind of small...


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## Splat (Jul 27, 2016)

When I was searching for a vise for my mill I wanted a Kurt.....of course, but was going to go Glacern but then started reading a lot of good things about Phase II+'s vises and bought one. Well, years later I'm still happy with it. Check them out if you can.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2016)

Thanks for the recommendations! My Kurt A50 arrived today and I have to say- that definitely was the right move; it's the perfect size for this mill! I do realize that you'd typical mount it on the center dovetail, but unfortunately the ram is froze up on the mill and I haven't been able to free it yet. Mounting the vise back one dovetail allows me to use the most amount of y-axis travel.




Next up a set of parallels and a set of R8 collets and I'm finally good to go. I wired the mill last night using a Teco VFD and it's running really well.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 29, 2016)

To free the ram, you need soft but heavy blows.  Cast iron is brittle.  Hammering on cast iron breaks it.  I had the same problem with both of my Millrites when I got them -- locked up solid.  First, mark the column and turret with a Sharpie so you can see any movement and then squirt some good penetrating oil in there everywhere you can.  Let the penetrant soak in.  Find something like a 4 foot long 6x6 (what I used.)  Hang it from the rafters in line with the ram on two ropes.  Loosen the nuts and give the ram a few solid hits from the ram from both ends with the end grain of the post.  Don't overdo it, and do not be impatient.  Squirt some more penetrant on it and walk away for at least a couple hours.  Lather, rinse, repeat until  you see a bit of movement at your marks.  The war is over,  now it is just a matter of time until victory.  It will pretty rapidly start moving better with each cycle.  Keep wiping off whatever gunk gets exposed by the movement, and keep on with the penetrant.  I like Kroil for this.  After you can push the ram by hand fairly easily from each end to the other, and you have all the corrosion worked out of the slides, start working way oil in.  When it is well oiled throughout and no more gunk is coming out, you are done.  Swear a solemn oath to yourself that you will move and oil the ram at least twice a year, even if you don't need to.

Edit:  Your mill looks really nice, and you have done a nice job on the VFD installation.  Perhaps it has been sitting for years and needs some use to loosen up a bit...


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## wildo (Jul 29, 2016)

You sure are a wealth of knowledge, Bob! Very much appreciate the detailed instructions on freeing the ram!


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## Bob Korves (Jul 29, 2016)

Feel free to PM me if you want to.  Also think about joining the Yahoo BurkeMills group.  There are lots of helpful people there.  Keep coming back here in between...


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## wildo (Jul 31, 2016)

Hey Bob- check it out. Bam!!


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## Bob Korves (Jul 31, 2016)

Way to go!  Keep it up, keep changing directions.  The ram has been stuck for who knows how many years.  If it takes you a few days of messing with it to make it right, so what?

Edit:  Not enough penetrating oil running down the sides...  8^)


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## wildo (Aug 1, 2016)

I admit- I forgot to use penetrating oil on that first pic. I did spray it on (plenty enough to run down the sides!) after the picture though and surprisingly the ram slide right off. I took the head off and pounded on the front of the ram casting with a rubber mallet to move it that first .250. From there it was indeed smooth sailing.

Head removed in order to access front of ram for pounding:



The ram ways were degreased, cleaned, and oiled with way oil:



The top of the turret ways had some very slight surface rust (oddly, the ram ways did not) so I stoned them with a very fine ceramic stone after degrease and clean:



The ram went back on and a reminder was set on my calendar for 6 months from now to move and oil it. While the head was off, I did take the opportunity to move the mill back into the corner a bit more. I set the mill such that the ram was buried into the corner when positioned all the way back. I figure this should give me slightly more room in the shop, and I'll still be able to rotate the turret by extending the ram forward a bit:


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## TOOLMASTER (Aug 25, 2016)

i bought this one 20 years ago with a swivel base on ebay..sold the swivel base for for than i paid ;-)..
just cant remember who made it...????


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## LARRY BOYD (Sep 13, 2016)

Talking about penetrating oil, about 10yrs. ago I read about home made penetrants. Fifty, fifty mix of Acetone and automatic transmission fluid. That is all I use now. I do a lot of work on cars from the 30s and 40s Door hinge screws don't stand a chance with this mix.


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## Elmo (Sep 21, 2016)

LARRY BOYD said:


> Talking about penetrating oil, about 10yrs. ago I read about home made penetrants. Fifty, fifty mix of Acetone and automatic transmission fluid. That is all I use now. I do a lot of work on cars from the 30s and 40s Door hinge screws don't stand a chance with this mix.



That stuff is magic! I acquired a rotary table, and a large X Y table for a drill press that were very neglected and rusted stuck. Doused them down with the magic stuff, let them sit a couple days and repeated. They were freed up and worked full range. Now needs cleanup!
 Elmo


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