# Cleaning up a Charles Parker number 474 double-swivel bench vise



## brino

Hello,

I saw this bench vise at my local used tool place back in March.
They had just put it out and didn't even have a price on it initially.









Well at the beginning of May it was still there.....probably due to the price tag.





I could not justify that price either.
However the owner was willing to move a little, and I found several unused items in my shop to "trade in" for additional discount. That brought it down to my limit.

So the next pictures of it will be from my shop!
I have already dismantled it, got some parts thru the electrolysis bucket and even some fresh paint on.
Stay tuned!

-brino


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## woodtickgreg

Can't wait to see it all painted up and refurbed!


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## RandyM

I love a good resurrection.

That is one heavy duty vice.

Don't make us wait to long.


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## woodchucker

No way that much for that vise.
That would go for about $100 on the retail side around here.
It's a nice vise though. I have a Parker from around 1902. I understand you cannot use a heavy hand on the casting, they will crack. So I use it for filing, bending, light peening. But no sledge or full swing PEENing.. They say it is gray metal.. not modern cast iron.

I like the lock on the ram.  Like my Parker the jaws look integral. They just slid on and have 2 pins holding them.


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## BrianT

Nice vise!  The double swivel is unique, dont see many Parkers like that.  I have an old Parker as well and also treat it with respect as I would hate to damage it and the jaws are not easily replaceable.


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## brino

Thanks for the interest!

I wanted this vise for two main reasons:

1) I often wish my current vise had that double swivel feature for holding long items with one end on the floor and the part coming up thru the vise jaws.

2) When I  use the Record quick-adjust vise that is my current main vise I am often disappointed by it.
The problem?
The damn quick-adjust mechanism misbehaves, it lets the jaws go slack, and drops my precious work into the pile of grit on the floor!
It's usually when I'm doing something critical and trying to keep it clean, I can spin the handle to loosen, then pull and push the jaws to the work, then while still holding the work piece with my left hand slightly tighten the vise with my right hand. So far so good the vise seems to be holding. But then I move two hands on the vise handle to just snug it up carefully and "CLICK" the quick-adjust mechanism lets go and my work is on the floor. I fume and swear.....and in fact that vise has a battle scar where I smacked it with a hammer when it dropped my work once again. It doesn't happen every time.....only when I start trusting it.

Okay, maybe there are three reasons I wanted the Charles Parker........this old piece of history is a beauty!

Will I miss the quick-adjust feature?
Maybe, but I won't miss crawling around the floor looking for a part that rolled way under the bench.

In fact, I bought two of those Record quick-adjust vises when I found them on close-out. One is my "daily driver" the other was new, still in the box. It's one of the items I traded in for a discount on the Charles Parker vise.....a good investment I figure!

I'll probably keep the Record one I am currently using just for those jobs that need a bigger hammer, or perhaps on the welding table.

Those kinds of thing won't be allowed in the "new" Charles Parker!

-brino


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## mikey

Nice find, Brino! Parker vises are awesome and your double-swivel vise is an uncommon model; first I've ever seen, actually. The jaw inserts are made of tool steel and are individually fitted to each vise. They are held in with tapered pins tapped in from the top and then filed to match the profile of the jaw. The vise is very strong and fairly precisely machined where it counts. If they have a weakness, it is the cast iron main nut - they can crack. I suggest you identify the nut and watch ebay for a replacement to have on hand if it ever goes.


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## brino

woochucker said:


> Like my Parker the jaws look integral. They just slid on and have 2 pins holding them.



Thanks Jeff! 
I looked close at the jaws, and tried to look into the holes below but could make out nothing.
Is there any easy way to pull those pins?

I'll have to have another look.

-brino


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## woodchucker

I don't know. I did not take the jaws off. I could not make out if the pins were blind or were through. So I left them. Also I didn't want to pound on the casting. They say the vise is a good vise, but there are not a lot around because they cracked from hammering on them. So, I'll use it for work holding, and use my rail (anvil) for pounding.
I was able to see the pins, if I remember from under, but not above.  Or the other way.. Mine close so nicely and the jaws are so nice, that even cigarette paper or rice paper would be held . Some vises don't fully close like my old wilton. I would like to put it on a stand, so I can fully swivel and hold without the table interfering.


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## Charles Spencer

I move that Charles Parker vises be nicknamed "Bird" vices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Parker


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## woodchucker

mikey said:


> Nice find, Brino! Parker vises are awesome and your double-swivel vise is an uncommon model; first I've ever seen, actually. The jaw inserts are made of tool steel and are individually fitted to each vise. They are held in with tapered pins tapped in from the top and then filed to match the profile of the jaw. The vise is very strong and fairly precisely machined where it counts. If they have a weakness, it is the cast iron main nut - they can crack. I suggest you identify the nut and watch ebay for a replacement to have on hand if it ever goes.



I thought they might have been tapered, impossible to find the other end. Glad I didn't try that.
As for the nut, I would say if you break it, better to do one out of steel. 
I didn't know the nut was the problem, everything I heard or read said the casting could not take the hammering.  But the nut maybe weak spot . So if that's what they were warning about, I would make a new one from steel and be happy.


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## mikey

woochucker said:


> I thought they might have been tapered, impossible to find the other end. Glad I didn't try that.
> As for the nut, I would say if you break it, better to do one out of steel.
> I didn't know the nut was the problem, everything I heard or read said the casting could not take the hammering.  But the nut maybe weak spot . So if that's what they were warning about, I would make a new one from steel and be happy.



The vise itself is very tough. You would have to hammer on it or put a pipe on the handle to break it. The reason the nut is the weak spot is that it is cast iron so not the toughest material around. In addition, each nut is fitted by hand in a loose dovetail slot and then retained by another tapered pin. Depending on how well the nut is fitted in the slot, excessive pressure from tightening can put stresses on the nut and it cracks. 

A steel nut would be good but the issue is that this is a double lead square thread, I believe. It is not an Acme thread, that's for sure. If you are capable of cutting such a thread then yeah, a steel nut would be a good option.


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## woodchucker

I wonder if all nuts are the same for the parker. Brino, take a look at my signature, follow it to Parker Refurb. You'll see a shot of the parts, with the nut sitting there. I doubt it, but you never know.

I wonder if a bronze nut would be a possible substitute.  I figure if you can copy the thread, you can make a limited use tap and make it yourself. I realize the double lead is the tough part.. I have not done a double yet.
Or would the only way to do it, be single point threading?


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## brino

mikey said:


> They are held in with tapered pins tapped in from the top and then filed to match the profile of the jaw.



Great thanks, I had to look real hard to see them but they are there!
I'll try to get some pictures of those too.

-brino


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## brino

A few more close-ups before I show some disassembly.....










The only reason that the wrenches are still with it is that they are captive, yet you can rotate them out of the way.





I suspect the one circular spring clip is original, but that the flat c-clip is a replacement.

Still more to come!

-brino


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## brino

I had to go double check after the comments above, but mine has a single-start screw thread.


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## mikey

I may have been mistaken about the double lead but it is a square thread, I believe, not an Acme. Square threads need to be cut very accurately or they bind. 

Some models shared the same nut. The nuts are numbered - mine are number 2's. To my knowledge, all of them are cast iron.

Brino, you're lucky that the ears on the brake shoes in your base are intact. They often crack at the ears around the hinge pin. This is due to over-tightening of the locking bolt. It doesn't take much to lock the base so don't overdo it. 

There is a spring and pin under the screw in the center of the handle. It keeps the handle from slipping in the head of the handle and causing a nasty pinch, which is a nice touch.


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## brino

Continuing with the theme of "You can never have too many pictures".......


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## mikey

It sure is in nice condition, Brino. That looks like the original factory blue, too.


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## brino

woochucker said:


> I wonder if all nuts are the same for the parker. Brino, take a look at my signature, follow it to Parker Refurb. You'll see a shot of the parts, with the nut sitting there. I doubt it, but you never know.



Thanks for that path to your refurb, I did NOT find that in my initial "Charles Parker" searches.
Your black paint really looks great!



mikey said:


> That looks like the original factory blue, too.


Thanks. I did not know what was original, I've only seen other refurbs.

I hope my Tremclad "hammered" silver is not sacrilegious.

I will check for numbers on my nut (I says pardon?).
The thread looks very square, I'll get some close-ups when it's cleaned.

Thanks for looking and for all the great feedback!

-brino


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## brino

For anyone that has not tried electrolysis for rust removal, you don't know what you're missing!
It saves so much wire brushing, and is so easy and cheap to use.
In this case it's also working so well on the old paint, that that it's almost dripping off into the electrolysis bucket when I pull the parts out.

I am using a plastic bucket from the hardware store. My current recipe is rain water (since my well water is so hard, and there's so much rain around!), about a 1-1/2 cups of each TSP and "washing soda". My TSP is the real stuff (I've never understood how they can sell phosphate-free trisodium phosphate!). The washing soda is Arm and Hammer "So Clean" super washing soda (aka sodium carbonate). I am using an ancient 12V battery charger as the power supply.

I could even leave the rig powered up and parts in the bucket thru the day and pull them out at night.

Here it is bubbling away:



...and some parts being pulled out:








I'd pull them out, give them a gentle scrape, a light wire brushing and leave them to dry under a heat-lamp.
I've read about problems with "flash rusting" but I've never seen it.
I typically masked and painted them the next day and left them under the lamp again to dry.

-brino


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## brino

Some bare, cleaned parts:


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## brino

Masked and painted......


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## brino

some finished parts:


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## brino

Last two shots for the night......I gotta go clean some more parts!

You can see that a previous owner had used the back-end of the movable jaw as an anvil or cut-off block.



...and here you can just make out the top "fat-ends" of the taper pins that hold the jaw on:




-brino


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## woodchucker

Looks good. Real good. Nice job. I like the color too.


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## BrianT

Wow, looks good...makes me want to restore mine as well now.  The double swivel is really nice and somewhat rare, I think the original price could have been realized if it had the right venue to sell it.


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## f350ca

Great score brino !! Almost missed your post, your ripping through the restoration so fast. Will have to give electrolysis a go one of these days.

Greg


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## EmilioG

Great find. Thanks for documenting. The photos and information will come in handy for anyone doing a resto on this model vise.
I'm still looking for a good CP vise. I'd like to buy one of the larger CP vises. They weigh over 70#'s! Mikey has the beast of CP vises.
Very hard to find the larger vises intact w/o cracks or missing parts with a swivel base, pipe jaws, wrench and in good shape.

Nice work Brino. The vise looks excellent now. You did a great job.

A lot of sellers don't even know if there is a crack somewhere, so I would have to buy in person from CL and do a careful inspection.
You have to get lucky.  It's like hitting the lottery.


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## EmilioG

The Charles Parker 824 is THE vise I would like to find in good shape. These were the best of the best. Top line models, of which Charles Parker made two.
The superior line is the best they made. Super rare.


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## mikey

Even more rare is the Emmert 4A Universal Vise. Finding one of those in decent condition is a notable event.


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## brino

Thanks for all the input, replies and views.
I find that motivating.

Now I need a little help........I cannot remove the main nut from the fixed jaw casting.
I also cannot see why it won't come apart.

Back in post #12 Mikey said:


mikey said:


> The reason the nut is the weak spot is that it is cast iron so not the toughest material around. In addition, each nut is fitted by hand in a loose dovetail slot and then retained by another tapered pin. Depending on how well the nut is fitted in the slot, excessive pressure from tightening can put stresses on the nut and it cracks.



Here's the nut from the jaw side:



(and also note the two holes that would allow me to knock out the taper pins that hold the jaw on)

and here's the nut from the back-side:



The nut is in the middle on about a one inch neck up from its' dovetail. 
You can see the keeper in the dovetail slot.
It's that little keeper that wont' budge.

I removed this counter-set screw from the outside:



Then by putting a 2x2 wooden block against the nut from the jaw side and giving it a tap with a mallet, I can get the keeper to move about 20 thou.
You can see that the "keeper" did move, it is offset thru the hole.
I cannot see any other fastener or pin.




The nut itself does get loose behind the keeper, I do not believe there's anything holding it now except that keeper in the dovetail slot.

I'd rather not remove the nut than risk any chance of breaking anything.

I had tried penetrating oil and getting it to move for a few days before I put it in the electrolysis bucket.

Thoughts?
Ideas?

Thanks,
-brino


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## Nogoingback

Very cool vice you've got there Brino!  Looks like you're doing a good job.  (And the color
looks just fine.)


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## mikey

I would just leave the nut in there, Brino. I'm sure you can tap it out but you can do that if the nut ever cracks.


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## gcwell

Yes  Brino, if it is not damaged leave it in place. You have made good progress since we spoke Sunday and the vise looks really cool.
George


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## Silverbullet

Nice find , I too think these shops buy them for nothing and expect to get ten times there money. I have a Parker vice , one jaws missing , that wrap around design is a give away. Oh I have about six bench models and twenty plus other styles. The only one I use for beating on is an old China or Taiwan swivel job. I've had it forever and it's been used in tons of ways. Good luck with a nice vise sure looks good now too. Doubleboost has one that looks like yours too. He uses it roughly .


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## brino

I spent some more time last night moving the little keeper back and forth.
I was going easy because it didn't really need to come out....it was more about a full cleaning and understanding.

Slowly it started moving more and more....and then SUCCESS!





the dovetail:



the nut and keeper, as found:



and cleaned-up:



Now I just need to (find the time to):
-finish cleaning some bits like the main handle, the swivel wrenches, etc.
-paint the outer casting for the fixed jaw, swivel wrenches, etc.
-I think I'll use GlideCote on the movable jaw "slide" areas: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=40952&cat=1,230,64343,64350
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=40952&cat=1,230,64343,64350
-lubricate
-reassemble
-mount

What's recommended lube for lead screw and nut? I was thinking either lithium or plain extreme pressure wheel bearing grease. 
Any reason those are not preferred?

Thanks,
-brino


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## woodchucker

I think I used butchers wax for mine.   I use it on my woodworking vises too.

Glidecote is probably waxy too.


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## mikey

brino said:


> What's recommended lube for lead screw and nut? I was thinking either lithium or plain extreme pressure wheel bearing grease.
> Any reason those are not preferred?



That's a number 2 nut. It is used in a number of Parker vises and is the most common nut I've seen come up on ebay. Watch for a spare.

I used extreme pressure moly grease. You have a steel screw moving in a cast iron nut at high pressure - the grease helps to reduce wear in this arrangement. This is the only application where I don't automatically reach for my SuperLube. 

I also grease the body of the vise where the beam of the movable jaw rides and the bottom of the beam. I used paste wax on the outside of the beam to reduce rust. You do not want oil or grease on the outside of the beam to attract grit and dirt.


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## brino

Hi All,

I got the fixed jaw casting masked and painted last night.
Here it is:





I'm getting close now!

-brino


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## hman

Do those grooves under the jaw lead to knock-out holes for the taper pins?


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## brino

hman said:


> Do those grooves under the jaw lead to knock-out holes for the taper pins?



Yes that's right!
You can see them for the fixed jaw in post #40 but I guess I did not include a similar picture for the movable jaw.
I'll try to get one before I re-assemble it.
I'll also get some close-ups of the lead screw.

-brino


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## mikey

Sure turning out purty, Brino!


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## brino

Here we go again with too many photos.......

a close-up of the parts to the handle "anti-slop" mechanism..



I promised a close-up of the lead-screw thread:



a bunch of bits ready for assembly



the entire handle and lead-screw:



lead-screw after cleaning:



handle after cleaning:



some assembly is imminent!

-brino


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## brino

almost forgot......here's the taper-pin knock-out holes on the moveable jaw:


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## brino

so here we are......I've done a dry test fit of everything:
-there's no lube on the lead-screw yet
-both wrenches looks really out of place; one stripped naked, and one with the old paint
-I think I'm going to paint the little u-shaped keeper plate for the lead screw that goes on the front


















-brino


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## brino

.....and some shots of exercising the swivel feature:






That's all for tonight!
Goodnight.
-brino


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## mikey

Brino, someday, someone will need the info you've documented so well here. Your vise is rare and I'm sure other owners will find this thread very useful. Great job on the vise and awesome job on the documentation!!


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## francist

Yup, puts my beat up old 954 Parker to shame that's for sure! Great job, Brino.

-frank


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## woodchucker

SWEEEET. That's probably the nicest double swivel around.


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## woodchucker

BTW so you don't lose the work you did. At this point I mounted it on a 2x6 so that it wouldn't fall to the floor. Mine (diff model) always wanted to fall toward the handle, so rather than have it drop to the floor I mounted it.
Just saying you've done all this work, don't risk it deciding to do a header off the bench.

edit:
On second thought, noticing the pics, mine would have already fallen foward, I think you have more mass over the center with that swivel.. ignore what I said.


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## brino

woochucker said:


> Just saying you've done all this work, don't risk it deciding to do a header off the bench.



Actually Jeff, I think you're spot on.
It seems to want to lean toward the handle end, unless almost fully closed.
-brino


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## woodtickgreg

What a great little project, well done. Thanks for sharing this with us! I love it when old tools are brought back to life.


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## FOMOGO

Really nice job on the vice Brino. I've never seen one quite like it. Cheers, Mike


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## brino

This is probably the final update for this thread.

I got the last three little parts(2 wrenches and the little u-shaped anchor plate) painted, the main screw and nut greased up, and I have already removed the Record vise that this is replacing from the work bench!

My son helped me cut one coil from the end of a spring to make one new spring clip to capture one of the wrenches (replacing a flat c-clip that I suspect was not original).

Thanks for all the views, help and suggestions!

-brino


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## woodchucker

Looks great. Enjoy using it.


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## RandyM

Bravo!


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## f350ca

Very nice brino !!!! Your going to hate using it and getting it marked up now though.

Greg


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## woodtickgreg

Very cool, I enjoyed watching this restore. I have a nice old record wood working vice I need to do this to.


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## EmilioG

brino said:


> I spent some more time last night moving the little keeper back and forth.
> I was going easy because it didn't really need to come out....it was more about a full cleaning and understanding.
> 
> Slowly it started moving more and more....and then SUCCESS!
> 
> View attachment 233309
> View attachment 233310
> 
> 
> the dovetail:
> View attachment 233311
> 
> 
> the nut and keeper, as found:
> View attachment 233312
> 
> 
> and cleaned-up:
> View attachment 233313
> 
> 
> Now I just need to (find the time to):
> -finish cleaning some bits like the main handle, the swivel wrenches, etc.
> -paint the outer casting for the fixed jaw, swivel wrenches, etc.
> -I think I'll use GlideCote on the movable jaw "slide" areas:
> http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=40952&cat=1,230,64343,64350
> -lubricate
> -reassemble
> -mount
> 
> What's recommended lube for lead screw and nut? I was thinking either lithium or plain extreme pressure wheel bearing grease.
> Any reason those are not preferred?
> 
> Thanks,
> -brino



What did you use to "tap out" the nut? A brass drift punch? dead blow mallet?
It was amazing to see that there wasn't any corrosion under that nut.
Nice work Brino.  How thick is that CP body casting? It would be great to document some specs for this vise. (if you have time).
This will be a great future resource to anyone rebuilding a CP vise.  This thread will come up in a Google search for all time. 
Thanks for sharing.


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## brino

EmilioG said:


> What did you use to "tap out" the nut? A brass drift punch? dead blow mallet?



Since I could not tap on the little dovetail keeper directly I had to push on the nut that it was keeping.
I used a short (6") piece of 2x2 lumber and a mallet to gently persuade it out.
I was not going to risk doing any damage to the parts.



EmilioG said:


> How thick is that CP body casting? It would be great to document some specs for this vise. (if you have time).



I forgot that I was going to weigh the thing before bolting it down........doh!
Maybe when I move it (if I ever get a new shop built!) I'll remember to do that.

-brino


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## EmilioG

I hope to find a larger Charles Parker vise someday soon., like the 975 or 289 1/2.
You found a good one in decent shape. No cracks.


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## ch2co

There is no such thing as too many photos, especially like these. This is one beautiful rebuild. WAY TO GO!!

_(and to think that before this post, I only knew of Charlie Parker for his great music and vices)_ 

CHuck the grumpy old guy


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## EmilioG

Are both CP wrenches the same size/number? Are the wrenches a "standard" imperial size or metric?
Some CP vises on sale don't come with the wrench, which is a bit of a deal breaker for me.
Finding the right CP vise wrench takes a lot of luck and sellers ask a small fortune for them.

I wonder how many CP vise wrench models there are? I see yours is a #2 for one, Brino.
The other one looks a bit thinner.


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## mikey

Not to preempt Brino but the #2 Parker wrench is a 6 point, 3/4" hex wrench. If you find the right vise, you can easily fab a replacement wrench for it.


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## Nogoingback

f350ca said:


> Very nice brino !!!! Your going to hate using it and getting it marked up now though.
> 
> Greg




Brino, the risk too great: you need to place that vice in secure storage to avoid damage.  It would be safe in my shop...


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## brino

EmilioG said:


> I wonder how many CP vise wrench models there are? I see yours is a #2 for one, Brino.
> The other one looks a bit thinner.



Both of mine are #2 wrenches.....and as @mikey says they are indeed 3/4"....though one is a little looser than the another.
-brino


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## EmilioG

I've seen Parker vises that use a cross bar handle like Wilton swivel bullets.  Do you think Parker switched and ditched the wrenches?
It would save money, not have to producing individual wrenches for all the vises.  The other wrench sizes I've seen are 5/8" and possibly 13/16".


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## mikey

The original Parker vises used a T-handle for the base. Later (not sure when), they switched to the wrench.


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## Chip Hacket

You did a great job restoring that vise.  It sure is a beauty.  I'm thinking you'll demote the old (drops the work) vise to the rank of doorstop.  This one is a family heirloom.  

--Chip


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Silverbullet

Great job, now it's all down hill beating bolts rusted in holes , heating and burning twisting and the vise will live on. It's what there made for.
Good job on a nice vice.


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