# Grinder revisited



## Aaron_W (Aug 31, 2017)

Still looking at bench grinders, I've pretty much narrowed it down to an 8" Dewalt ($127) or an 8" Jet ($239). 

Dewalt

http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-8-in-205-mm-Bench-Grinder-DW758/202248627


Jet

http://www.homedepot.com/p/JET-1-HP...ench-Grinder-115-Volt-JBG-8A-577102/204058695


At this time my only need is sharpening 1/4" and perhaps 3/8" lathe tools. The Jet is 1 hp, vs 3/4hp for the Dewalt but it is $100 more, not sure 1/4 hp is really worth paying nearly twice as much.

It also appears the Jet tool rests are not adjustable? The Dewalt are, nit they are aluminum, the Jet tool rests are cast iron or steel.

I'm still learning about cutting tool blanks, but non-adjustable tool rests seems like it would be an issue. I've looked at both units in person on display and they seem to be of similar quality, although the accessories were not installed (Tool rests and clear shields).

Open to other suggestions, I'd prefer to stay under $200, but could go as high as $300 if it made a significant difference. I have looked at a couple of cheaper units (Ryobi, Delta etc) but all are 1/2 hp and reading comments here, you get what you pay for, usable but limited utility.


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## dlane (Aug 31, 2017)

Craig's list usually has grinders listed cheep ,some times you can find an older 1/2hp that will go toe to toe with new 3/4hp grinders. Tool bits can be ground useing stationary belt sanders also.


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## woodtickgreg (Aug 31, 2017)

Look at the rikons at wood craft, there are 2 models, get the bigger one. They are slow speed and of decent quality for a chinese made grinder, I do believe they come with a 5 year warranty as well and they have great customer service at rikon. For sharpening tool cutters slow speed is better in my opinion because of the reduced heat.


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## mikey (Aug 31, 2017)

If you're mainly going to grind tool bits then CBN wheels seems to be the way to go. They're expensive, though. The best packages I've seen are here: https://woodturnerswonders.com/collections/rikon-grinders

I would definitely go for the 1HP option. While 1/2 -3/4HP will grind a bit, a 1HP motor is much better and will cut faster.


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## Zathros (Sep 1, 2017)

Aaron_W said:


> Still looking at bench grinders, I've pretty much narrowed it down to an 8" Dewalt ($127) or an 8" Jet ($239).
> 
> Dewalt
> 
> ...



I can only say, à Good one Will last your lifetime. I bought My creusen 6" Dual stone and polish Thom on it about 30 years ago and Used it at least weekly and it is still running as it was new.



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## Aaron_W (Sep 1, 2017)

Ok, Rikon added to my list. Thanks


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## Dave Paine (Sep 1, 2017)

Since you added Rikon to the list, I will provide my experience.  I purchased the 1/2HP Rikon slow speed grinder to sharpen my wood turning tools.  Two other local friends also purchased the same unit.  All three of these units have a lot of wobble in the wheels.  The motor runs smooth and quiet but the wheels have wobble.  You can true them up, but if you remove and replace, they will wobble in a different plane.

One contributing factor is the very shallow shoulder on which the large washer is meant to register.   The hole in the washer is too large in my opinion and so the washer does not register consistently.  The area between this red arrow and the bearing is turned down to about 16mm.  If only they have left it at the same diameter as the bearing ID it may work better.




Another contributing factor is the bushing in the wheels.  Too much slop.  I used a piece of masking tape to get a better fit.  This helped.

Last week I made replacement washers for both sides of the wheel which have close fit to the 5/8in dia shaft.   This helped but the bushing issue causes the wheel to not sit consistently.  Each time I remove the wheel for testing the washer it would not go back the same.  I think better wheels may solve this part of the problem.

For grinding metal items like HSS bits, the Rikon platforms are too flimsy.  Part is the platform and part the thin metal on the guards.


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## Zathros (Sep 1, 2017)

Wheel bolts for à car use conical rings to Center the bolt in the hole of the rim.
I think you need à simulair solution like that only sized op or down to Center the stone always the same way, then If there is still à wobble you might use à grindstone tool to get the stone stable.
Might work for all those who have those issues especially with à new stone.



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## wawoodman (Sep 1, 2017)

Whichever one you buy, plan on buying or building a real tool rest. I have an newish POS Delta, and an older Jet, but both of them needed the upgraded rests.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 1, 2017)

Thanks, I saw aftermarket tool rests and wondered if they were a good idea to get.

Who knew buying a bench grinder would be so complicated...


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## dulltool17 (Sep 1, 2017)

Mike- that Veritas is a thing of beauty!  Copied picture so I can use it to make one.

Thanks!


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## woodtickgreg (Sep 1, 2017)

Remember, Rikon has 2 models, skip the cheaper one and look at the better one.
And yes, the wheels that come with any grinder are almost always crap!


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 1, 2017)

Forget Chinese grinders and go Mikey's route , use a belt sander.  He has a wonderful thread here somewhere on his and options.  A belt has a lot of things going for it.  Before you drop money on a grinder that is a compromise reading Mike's thread is highly recommended IMO.

michael


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## Silverbullet (Sep 2, 2017)

You could or should look for a older used baldor or Dayton grinders . Daytons are baldor with there name. Or even a used carbide grinder I think I saw one a week or so , on eBay . I bought one from grangers about thirty years ago the Dayton 7" with lighted eye shields and upgraded tool rests. I worked on repairs of power tools and had accounts with them for parts . We had MAKITA Milwaukee, Stanley, porter cable. Carried quite a few parts we had a good thing going till the building trades dumped back in around 1990.  The carbide grinders are made to sharpen lathe tooling and used they run from $150 - $300. Even try running a wanted add in Craigslist don't cost anything. I think all the new power tools suck for being sold in America when there made in China.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 2, 2017)

So something like this maybe?

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-3-4-...SellerId=Sears&prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1


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## mikey (Sep 2, 2017)

There are no cheap, good belt sanders that are really that good for tool grinding except for the 2X72 big grinders. I've looked for a long time to find a replacement for the Sears 1/2HP 2X42 belt sander I have and have found nothing to match it. The main issue is that the right side of the platen must be wide open so that you can make a table to support the tool bit as you grind the rake angles. Most sanders have some kind of frame on the right side.

However, I did see this one on Grizzly's site: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Belt-Sander-Grinder/H7760

It has a chassis that exposes the right side of the belt. The platen is replaceable, which means you can make one from steel and epoxy a glass platen on it. It is also 1/2HP, which is the least you should consider for a belt sander for tool grinding. On top of that, it will take a 6" wheel on the left side and I would put a CBN wheel on it if I had this machine. The belts are 2" wide, which allows you to grind a tool fast. The belt length is only 27" so I think the belts may not last as long as a 42 - 72" belt but it should get the job done.

This is a machine that I think might just work. I haven't seen one or seen detailed pics of but it looks to have all the right stuff. If you go for this, please do a complete review so we can see how the platen is mounted. You will also need to build a good tool rest for it but it has a locking bolt for the table up front so its doable.

I would consider this one rather than the one you linked to, Aaron.


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## woodtickgreg (Sep 2, 2017)

Lots of interesting opinions on this subject and a lot of good advise. I have several bench type grinders, yes a used baldor or dayton is always on my watch list, but they don't go cheap around here. I have an older craftsman that has good power and spools up fast. I have a baldor carbide tool grinder that I scored cheap but it needs a refurbish and it's on the long "round to it list". Belt grinders are awesome! But they have their downfalls too depending on what you spend, a belt grinder is on my list as well. They are such a useful tool, have a Burking at work that is awesome for fab work, removes a ton of material right now with a course belt, but way expensive for most of us hobbyist. A belt grinder with a fine belt is great for sharpening all kinds of things. A bench grinder is a useful tool for all kinds of things and not just for sharpening. I like having different machines that do different things, I'm not a fan of combo machines but that's just me. I have several grinders with different wheels on them to do different task, one with wire wheels. I don't have to change wheels, just move to another machine with that wheel.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 2, 2017)

Mikey, I'm a bit confused when you say the belt is exposed on the right side. The one I linked to appears to be unobstructed to at least the same degree as the Grizzly you linked to. It also appears to have a far more substantial, work table with a more accurate means of setting the angle. It isn't really clear in the photos but the adjustable table shown on the disk side can be moved to the belt, which places it above the disk, so wide open from both sides.

I suspect I'm not understanding what you mean when you say the belt is open on the right side.


I've read your tool sharpening with a belt sander post, and know you don't like 1" belts, but is there a reason to avoid 4 or 6" belts?  2" doesn't appear to be a popular size, most that I'm seeing are light units with 1" belts, and then more substantial ones with 4-6".

Here is another Grizzly with a 4x36" belt and a disk sander. You can hit the 360 icon below the photo which will rotate the machine allowing a good view of all sides.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Com...547?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com

This attachment costs as much as a half decent grinder, but perhaps this might be worth a look?

http://www.eastwood.com/multitool-2...V_9OUQaT245cBvvpznXhCVXMc7ZHtXahoC8OgQAvD_BwE

Thanks


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## mikey (Sep 2, 2017)

Aaron_W said:


> Mikey, I'm a bit confused when you say the belt is exposed on the right side. The one I linked to appears to be unobstructed to at least the same degree as the Grizzly you linked to. It also appears to have a far more substantial, work table with a more accurate means of setting the angle. It isn't really clear in the photos but the adjustable table shown on the disk side can be moved to the belt, which places it above the disk, so wide open from both sides.
> 
> I suspect I'm not understanding what you mean when you say the belt is open on the right side.
> 
> ...



When grinding lathe tools, any belt sander will do for grinding the side and end but when it comes to the top surface of the tool that houses the rake angles (the most important of all the angles on a turning tool), you must have no obstruction on the right side of the belt. That means the right edge of the platen is not bordered or obstructed by anything; all you see is platen, not housing or belt safety cover. The grinder I linked to has a cover that obstructs the platen edge until you remove the cover; then the platen's right edge is totally clear. Here is my grinder and you can see the right side of the platen is wide open:




When grinding the top surface of the tool, the tail end of the tool bit will be angled back and the rear limit of the feature you're grinding (the back rake) will be cut right at the right edge of the platen itself. 




Hence, the right side of the belt must be unobstructed. Most belt sanders, including the ones you linked to, are not suitable for tool grinding. The Multitool is okay for shop grinding but you must have a platen for tool grinding. If you can rig a really solidly supported platen for it then it would work. 

Sooo, the things a belt sander for tool grinding must have are:

An unobstructed platen on the right side. This platen must be removable so you can replace it with a flat steel platen with a ceramic glass liner epoxied to it. Some sanders have platens that are part of the chassis - those are no good. The platen has to be solidly supported. Most 1" belt sander platens are a piece of 1/8" mild steel fixed at one end. In use, that platen flexes too much and makes it all but impossible to grind an accurate face.

A way to mount a good tool rest that is settable to precise angles. This should be made of steel; aluminum tables will catch on any edge and the tool can drag.
As mentioned above, 1" sanders have flexible platens. You can use them if you remove that platen and replace it with a solid block (with glass liner in place) attached to the chassis. Finding 1" belts in the coarse grits needed for tool shaping is also tough.

There is no reason you cannot use a wider belt as long as the sander meets the above criteria. The 2" width is probably the single most common belt width out there for metal working (not wood working) and belts of any length you need can be had. Klingspor will custom make belts, as will several other belt manufacturers. 

I know its hard to find a good belt sander for tool grinding. I think the ideal grinder would be a 2X72 grinder with a custom tool rest but that is a machine that many of us cannot afford. I have yet to see a grinder to match my old Sears 2X42. They sell the exact same grinder today but only as a 1/3HP version and I can stop that motor dead just grinding wood, let alone tool steel. The Grizzly grinder I linked to looks like it might just work so I linked it above. Other than that, I haven't seen a decent grinder yet and trust me, I have been looking for a very long time.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 2, 2017)

Thank you, that makes sense. It also highlights how hard it will be to locate such a critter online, some of these specs will be hard to determine without an actual hands on examination of the equipment.


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## mikey (Sep 2, 2017)

I tell you, Aaron, that Grizzly combo looks like it might just do the trick. If Amazon Prime ever carries it, I might buy one just to get my hands on it. I know for a fact that grinding 1/4" square lathe tools would be no problem on a grinder of this size as long as it meets the criteria listed above. 

I would buy a 6" square cornered CBN wheel from Woodturner's Wonders and make a good table for it. Now that I think about it, you could grind the side and end of your tools on the belt and just use the corner of the wheel to grind the rake angles. You would still need a glass platen for longevity but using the wheel for the rake angles makes the obstruction-free thing a non-issue. This makes this grinder even more of a "possible". 

I would seriously consider this grinder, Aaron. It is out of stock right now but keep it in mind. I know I will.


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## woodtickgreg (Sep 2, 2017)

mikey said:


> I know its hard to find a good belt sander for tool grinding. I think the ideal grinder would be a 2X72 grinder with a custom tool rest but that is a machine that many of us cannot afford. I have yet to see a grinder to match my old Sears 2X42. They sell the exact same grinder today but only as a 1/3HP version and I can stop that motor dead just grinding wood, let alone tool steel. The Grizzly grinder I linked to looks like it might just work so I linked it above. Other than that, I haven't seen a decent grinder yet and trust me, I have been looking for a very long time.



Check this out, I plan to build one of these in aluminum. I have the motor and have been salvaging materials to build one, I almost have what I need. Look at kmg grinders for all the cool rest that can be made for this, pipe notchers too! A very useful grinder.

http://www.knifehelp.net/media/docs/GrinderPlans.pdf


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## mikey (Sep 2, 2017)

woodtickgreg said:


> Check this out, I plan to build one of these in aluminum. I have the motor and have been salvaging materials to build one, I almost have what I need. Look at kmg grinders for all the cool rest that can be made for this, pipe notchers too! A very useful grinder.
> 
> http://www.knifehelp.net/media/docs/GrinderPlans.pdf



Looks like a great project, Greg. Keep us posted on how it goes, okay? I keep intending to get a 2X72 but something always comes up that puts it on the back burner.


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## woodtickgreg (Sep 2, 2017)

Mikey, I've seen guys build these out of all kinds of materials, hot rolled plate, cold rolled plate, stainless and aluminum. I kinda dig the aluminum because of the easy to machine part and a little lighter in weight. Could I afford to go out and buy the material to build this? Nope, but if your patient and know where to look you can salvage it. I already salvage a very thick aluminum plate for the base, cant remember the exact dimension but it's like 1" to 1 1/2" thick or so, that ought to be plenty ridgid, lol. I paid I think $50 bucks for a brand new Jet 1hp tefc motor with switch that came of a freight damaged piece of equipment, a step pulley will give me different speeds. Slower for sharpening, higher for fab work a fast material removal.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 2, 2017)

I didn't particularly care for it having the grinding wheel on the other side, but your mention of the CBN wheel does make the idea more attractive. Only a 6" grinding wheel though, and still may not work...

I went down to Sears and looked at a 4x36 x 6 belt / disk sander. The belt portion is an enclosed box, so a very solid base to grind on but it would require cutting away part of the frame which seems a bad idea so that one is out.

It did remind me that I have an older 1 x 30" x 5" Craftsmen belt / disc sander that could work. It is basically like the one I linked to above, but the frame stops right at the edge of the belt so it would probably allow the bit the room needed to get the right angle. It is certainly has enough support behind the belt unlike most of the 1" belt sanders out there.

Looking at all the options, I'm thinking I will get the Rikon 1hp and plan on replacing the wheels with CBN ones when the supplied wheels need replacing. That woodturners site offers a pair of CBN wheels for $249, they also have the Spartan series for $99 each. Nearly $500 either way, but split into multiple purchases over time is less painful.

Assuming the 80 / 180 combination would be most appropriate for grinding HSS tooling bits? Those seem to be the lowest grit offered. 


I really appreciate the comments, more than I planned on spending but I prefer that over buying twice.


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## mikey (Sep 2, 2017)

woodtickgreg said:


> Mikey, I've seen guys build these out of all kinds of materials, hot rolled plate, cold rolled plate, stainless and aluminum. I kinda dig the aluminum because of the easy to machine part and a little lighter in weight. Could I afford to go out and buy the material to build this? Nope, but if your patient and know where to look you can salvage it. I already salvage a very thick aluminum plate for the base, cant remember the exact dimension but it's like 1" to 1 1/2" thick or so, that ought to be plenty ridgid, lol. I paid I think $50 bucks for a brand new Jet 1hp tefc motor with switch that came of a freight damaged piece of equipment, a step pulley will give me different speeds. Slower for sharpening, higher for fab work a fast material removal.



Your scavenging sites must be much better than mine. I agree that an aluminum grinder would be very cool and more than sufficient in strength. Let us see some pics when you're done, Greg. I know it will be really nice!


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## mikey (Sep 2, 2017)

Aaron_W said:


> I didn't particularly care for it having the grinding wheel on the other side, but your mention of the CBN wheel does make the idea more attractive. Only a 6" grinding wheel though, and still may not work...
> 
> I went down to Sears and looked at a 4x36 x 6 belt / disk sander. The belt portion is an enclosed box, so a very solid base to grind on but it would require cutting away part of the frame which seems a bad idea so that one is out.
> 
> ...



Go with what you feel will be best for you, Aaron. Truth be told, most lathe tools today are ground on a bench grinder with plain old aluminum oxide wheels. You don't need CBN to grind tools and you don't need a belt sander, either. I use one because it is faster and easier and cooler and more controllable but I can grind a tool on a bench grinder just as well. If I was going back to a bench grinder today, it would be at least a 1HP, 8" grinder with a 80 grit CBN  Mega-wheel on one side and a 220 CBN Mega-wheel on the other. 

Email Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders and ask him which wheels he would recommend. He will answer you quickly.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 2, 2017)

Thanks, I will do that.


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## wawoodman (Sep 4, 2017)

dulltool17 said:


> Mike- that Veritas is a thing of beauty!  Copied picture so I can use it to make one.
> 
> Thanks!



Here's the one I built:


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## dulltool17 (Sep 4, 2017)

Very nice!


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