# Do you clean before you create?



## Janderso

I’m one who has to clean the kitchen before I begin. It’s not much different in the shop.
I know many of you guys work in small basement shops. My shop is 20 X 20’.
Sometimes I have to laugh. I have so many things going on at the same time.
I leave for work at 5:30 and get home at 5:00.
I was practicing my Tig before work this morning. I’m still working on the belt sander. I’m making a metal planter box for Xmas.
I’m loving every minute!


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## brino

I see lots of tools and equipment......where's the shop? 

-brino


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## Boswell

You sure have a lot of great machines in a very small space.


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## markba633csi

Too many toys for one boy to play with at once  
I like your Grizzly bending brake- I wish I had room for one of those- how do you like it?
-Mark


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## hman

I generally clean (or at least put away the hand tools) the next day after completing a project.  Usually too tired on the day it's done.  I'll do a general floor sweep about once every 1-2 weeks.


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## Aukai

1 of my bats takes ~3 hrs with all of the operations, 7 lb blank to 2.2 lb bat. I HAVE to clean, and oil between builds. 
And this is not showing the floor too....


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## FOMOGO

My wife insists. Oh, never mind, I was thinking procreate.


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## Cooter Brown

I have always have 20+ projects going at the same time scattered all over the shop..... The shop only gets cleaned after I finish a few of them.....


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## Tozguy

A famous author once said that when he lacked inspiration he did a bit of house cleaning. He was amazed at how fertile his mind became while doing the chores.


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## Lo-Fi

I currently have a Bridgeport, lathe, hydraulic press, power hacksaw, bench grinder, floor standing drill press, welding table and three welders plus all the accessories for each and about a gazillion hand tools all in a 12 X 8 shed. Clearing up after myself is an hourly occurrence.


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## Nutfarmer

Jeff it hasn't taken long for you to fill up your shop with tools. You should be very busy when you retire. Nice shop. Your clean habits probably stem from having to have a top notch dealership open to the public.


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## Jubil

Very familiar!!!

Chuck


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## wrat

What is this... "clean"...  thing of which you speak?


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## Papa Charlie

When I had my shop and even more now with living on the boat, cleaning is a must. The smaller the space, the more critical it is. I hate to work in clutter. I don't know how some people can do quality work in a pig sty.

When I pulled wrenches on heavy equipment and truck for a living, many years ago, I use to clean up after every job. My foreman came up and said that we don't have time to do that. I asked do we have time to waste working around it? After all, it was part of the job I just did and should be included. I could reach up from under a truck, open a drawer in my tool box and grab the right wrench without seeing it. I could do this because I put everything back where it belonged. Nothing worse than having to crawl out from under a truck, find a tool and back under 20 times during a job.

Use to sweep up the bay after each also, that way the creeper could roll under the next job without getting caught up in the dirt and debris left from the previous job.

@Janderso My compliments on your shop and the tool inventory I can see in the pictures. One thing good from the fire, you were able to buy new tools. Amazing how fast 400 sqft fills up.


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## Janderso

markba633csi said:


> Too many toys for one boy to play with at once
> I like your Grizzly bending brake- I wish I had room for one of those- how do you like it?
> -Mark


So far it's awesome. It was one of those Black Friday purchases.
After the initial round of cleaning and adjusting I found it to be a sweet machine.
20 gauge is the maximum thickness but that's OK. 20 gauge is stout enough for most of my sheet metal projects.


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## markba633csi

I bet you could do 18 ga in a pinch


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## Boswell

As for cleaning. I tend be in the middle. I mostly have a clean-sh shop. I do a good job of keeping tools put up after use but not as good of a job of storing intermediate assemblies and parts. I tend to have a "cleaning day" every month or so and as a result usually do not need to clear off space to start a new project (usually). Having said all this, my shop is NEVER as clean as the Clean shops I see pictures of.


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## Janderso

markba633csi said:


> I bet you could do 18 ga in a pinch


As I recall, you can use 18 gauge at half the capacity =12"


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## benmychree

Looks like you are nearly up to my level of crowding equipment!


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## silence dogood

I try to do one project at a time. After completed, then spend a day clean up. Well. I try.  Usually, halfway through a project, realize that I have to make a jig, or order something, or a honey do.  Still having fun, though.


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## Just for fun

You certainly do have your shop full.  Looks like you have it organized well.  I have a 30x30 shop that I think is full.   The problem right now is I have a 1969 Bronco project that is taking up a lot of room.   

I don't have a mill or lathe yet, my plan is to build a 10x20 building for the machining equepment.  I have been thinking it was going to be too small.   After seeing your shop and reading about guys working out of spare bedrooms I think I'll be fine. 

Thanks for the photos!   Gives me inspiration! 

Tim


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## Winegrower

I struggle against entropy, normally.   Before each new project, I cut off a length of rosin paper and lay it out on the workbench.    It seems to put me in the right frame of mind to plunge in, and I can work on the paper, make notes, sketches and keep track of dimensions.  Then, if it's possible I might ever do this again. I take a photo of the paper.   Sometimes I can figure out what I did.


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## Janderso

I struggle with organization and direction.
I have so many irons in the fire, I don't know weather to cutoff fish or machine bait.
Since I have so may things I want to accomplish, I tend to pressure myself to get things done.
I then have to stop and remember, this is my hobby to enjoy. There is no time frame other than my own anal clock.
Besides, my wife needs some of my precious time as well.
Won't be long now..........RETIREMENT


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## Larry$

I clean at the end of every day. All tools back where they belong, floor swept. Nothing I hate worse than looking for a tool or dropping a screw on a messy floor. I suspect it takes less time to keep it clean than it does to search.


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## Just for fun

Sounds good Jeff,   Retirement is close for me as well,  actually 169 days away.   I made a deal with my wife that I get Bronco moving under its own power before I buy any machining equepment.   She says my reputation precedes me and I would put the Bronco off another year if I was to get machining equipment now.


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## Boswell

I have about 120 days left !


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## Papa Charlie

I have approximately 561 days left. Seems like forever when I see other numbers mentioned here.


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## Suzuki4evr

Jeff I found that if you clean TOO much,you think of something you can buy to replace the space...........be careful........be very careful.


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## Superburban

It would be nice to have space when I buy a new tool. My problem is the reverse, I buy a tool, then need to move things around to make space. My new tools end up sitting under a tarp, on the trailer for weeks or more, while I figure out space. The last on the 16" South bend, I cheated and bought a big tent. When I finish rebuilding it, I will squeeze it into the shop. Although I have been considering the idea of a shipping container for the lessor used tools.


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## brino

Larry$ said:


> I clean at the end of every day. All tools back where they belong, floor swept. Nothing I hate worse than looking for a tool or dropping a screw on a messy floor. I suspect it takes less time to keep it clean than it does to search.



I typically do it the other way and can definitely confirm your suspicion!
-brino


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## sycle1

I used to be super tidy and organized in the workshop when I was younger. 
However after 30 years of working for myself,  I  must admit I have dropped the ball in the cleanlyness and organize department.
I now tend to make a mess first, clean it up, when I feel curls or chips underfoot.


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## Just for fun

I'm hit and miss on the clean up.   Welding and grinding projects get cleaned up at the end of the project or the end of the day.  As we keep our house cats locked in the shop at night and I don't want them walking around on metal shavings.   My tool box on the other hand sometimes get somewhat messy unless I'm actually working in there every day.   I end up doing a little project here and another one there and before I know it the top of my tool box is a mess!

Tim


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## GunsOfNavarone

I cannot work in ANY chaotic environment. Even when I make espresso on the weekend, I have to clean the kitchen before and after. I'm sure you shop makes more sense to you, but looking at the OP pix...I'm feeling hyperventilate-y. A place for everything and everything has a place.


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## Janderso

Guns,
I get it. After I took the pics, I cleaned the shop.
For one, I have more space when cleaned up. For two, I know where everything is so I can pull it out again.
I have to wire up every machine. I hate pulling out an extension cord to run a machine.


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## GunsOfNavarone

In all fairness, if I put pix of my shop...probably other would see chaos....well not full on, but the point is, our shops are like puzzle pieces that fit OUR brains perfectly. To others, you just couldn't make it fit.


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## Tozguy

It has been a lifelong struggle to remember that a job is not finished until everything is cleaned up and put away.


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## pontiac428

My brain geo-tags and catalogs the last location of anything I touch in the shop (house, closet, etc.) and retains it for sometimes years.  The problem is when someone else (wife, curious friends, etc.) touches something and puts it down six inches from where it was when they picked it up.  Then it's game over, I won't be able to locate it.  Eventually I'll have enough hooks, pegs, and drawers to keep the horizontal surfaces clear, but that's an ongoing project that spans the decades.


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## macardoso

I don't always get things clean the day I make the mess, but I refuse to let myself start working the next day without 100% cleaning everything up. I really do a pretty good job of keeping it clean. A place for everything and everything having a place REALLY helps. Even if it is just a dedicated space on a shelf.

Also I have 3 cats and no door to the basement. I would feel terrible if they cut themselves on a chip, so that gets cleaned up the same day the mess is made. It is a good motivation.


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## Nogoingback

I can't stand a chaotic shop, so I tend to keep mine pretty clean all the time.  By clean, I mean the tools have to go back
where they belong when I'm finished.  Sometimes, if I'm in the middle of a big job, I'll stop halfway and put away all the 
tools and junk I've pulled out and scattered around the bench, and then continue.  As for cleaning up the chips and dirt, 
I'll let that slide a bit, but I usually do it the next time I have a reason to be in the shop.  I give the lathe a good clean/lube
session after each job, or maybe after a couple if I run them back to back.  

I think the reason I'm a little obsessive about putting away tools is that I hate looking for them when I need them.  I just
want to go to the drawer, or whatever and pull the tool out.  Hunting for them really winds me up.  Also, when I was
young, I worked in my Dad's shop, and he would only give me one chance to put his tools away when I was done.  If 
I left them lying around, I was banned from using them, a fate that I avoided at all cost!


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## KevinM

I clean up at then end of the day and whenever I start having trouble finding the tool that I need or when I run out of bench space.  Quite a bit different than my old chronological tool storage system, recent tools on the top and layer, others you dig through the layers.


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## pontiac428

It's funny how many personality types there are.  I'm just the opposite of @Nogoingback, I don't care if there are parts and tools everywhere, but if there are contaminants like dirt, oil, or chips, the vac is always at hand- they get dealt with immediately like evil that must be banished.  Oil ruins welds and paint.  Chips ruin tools and track everywhere.  Dirt is abrasive grit that is happy to work on anything it gets into.  Leaving a tool in the last place I used it is a minor misdemeanor in comparison!


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## Papa Charlie

I can be very anal about the condition of my shop. I hate, I mean really hate to have to look for something. Drives me nuts. I like things in their place. Likewise, I find it difficult to do quality work in a dirty environment. I don't mind the mess of grinding, cutting or turning while I am working on that phase of the project, but when I go to the next stage, I do a clean up to prep for that phase.

I was that way when I managed a maintenance shop and the production shop and I am more so in the small spaces I have had for my personal shops. The little time it takes to clean up, is well rewarded in the time saved and the quality of the end product.

I find it difficult to get motivated to do projects if I walk into the shop area and it is a mess.

With the miniature space I have in the Pilothouse on the boat, it is even more critical. I pull out the tools I need, do the job and then put them back and clean up before the next phase or job. Only difference is my tools  are either in storage boxes, tool bags or under the settee in the PH.

@pontiac428 you are so right about the number of personality types we have here. Nothing is wrong with that. That is one of the benefits of this forum. You can learn so many different ways to do things and to think about solutions to challenges.


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## Just for fun

I agree John, Dirt, oil and metal shavings got to get cleaned up right away.   Tools nut so much.

Tim


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## Janderso

pontiac428 said:


> contaminants like dirt, oil, or chips, the vac is always at hand- they get dealt with immediately


I hear that.


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## DavidR8

This is a fascinating thread.
My shop is a mess. And I don't like it that way. I suffer from a bit (ok maybe a lot) of ADD and I know that a cluttered, messy space makes it hard for me to concentrate. Ironically, the clutter also makes it hard to get organized because knowing where to start is a challenge.
I'm getting there but man, the struggle is real.


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## Janderso

David,
I can't tell you how much time I have spent trying to increase floor space, add storage, get things up in the shelves to capitalize on wasted space.
Most of us have a garage, basement or out building we call our shops. We change them and they evolve over time.
I'm still evolving. It is hard to work on a project with crap all over the place.
I have been trying to practice tig welding. The cables go all over the place, my stool wheels are stuck in the wrong place because of the cables, the darn foot pedal is always in the wrong place. I think a desk where you can scoot into the work would be ideal for learning how to tig weld.


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## DavidR8

Janderso said:


> David,
> I can't tell you how much time I have spent trying to increase floor space, add storage, get things up in the shelves to capitalize on wasted space.
> Most of us have a garage, basement or out building we call our shops. We change them and they evolve over time.
> I'm still evolving. It is hard to work on a project with crap all over the place.
> I have been trying to practice tig welding. The cables go all over the place, my stool wheels are stuck in the wrong place because of the cables, the darn foot pedal is always in the wrong place. I think a desk where you can scoot into the work would be ideal for learning how to tig weld.


Totally hear you on the TIG challenge. Don't want to tell you about moving to get more comforable and accidentally stepping on the pedal while the torch tip was about 1/2" away from the work. Suffice it to say...that arc mark sure didn't buff out.  
I'm off work from now till Jan 4th so my plan is to do a re-org and clean. I've figured out that my table saw doesn't work where it is...


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## Papa Charlie

@Janderso @DavidR8 It is funny to read your posts above. The problem can exist in small shops and large shops. I hate going along, making a really beautiful TIG bead and then I can't move the torch, the wheel on my stool has caught it and won't let it move. 

And as for the lovely flash. Might as well go have a cup of coffee or a beer until the spots in my eyes go away and I can see to weld again.


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## hman

pontiac428 said:


> My brain geo-tags and catalogs the last location of anything I touch in the shop (house, closet, etc.) and retains it for sometimes years.


Yer a better man than I am, Gunga Din!!!!


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## Just for fun

I Geo-tag everything also but my memory bank seems to be limited in size,  so by the time I get back to look for something that info has been purged.  LOL


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## Just for fun

I make it sound like my shop is a mess.  It's really not that bad.   The top of my tool box gets kind of messy periodically but the rest of the shop just gets congested with stuff as I do more projects outside and not spending any time in the shop. 

I don't seem to have a many photos of the shop.  Here is one just for kicks and grins.


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## uncle harry

Aukai said:


> 1 of my bats takes ~3 hrs with all of the operations, 7 lb blank to 2.2 lb bat. I HAVE to clean, and oil between builds.
> And this is not showing the floor too....



Pretty good job of hiding that lathe


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## 7milesup

I try and keep my shop clean but it seems that on certain days it is a losing battle.  With a woodshop and the metalworking side, there is always a project in some phase of non-completion.  After my brain injury this summer I discovered that it was nearly an absolute to return a tool to its proper place, lest I completely forget where I had placed it. 
I also find that the more projects that I have "open", the higher my stress level.  The more stuff I have scattered around, the higher my anxiety.  It behooves me to try and keep it clean.
Some level of acceptance is required though, otherwise it no longer becomes enjoyable.


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## Braeden P

clean CLEAN that is the only word that does not describe my garage


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## savarin

I am incapable of working tidily. I detest cleaning up after a job it wastes so much time before you can start the next one.
I put it down to always having flunkies to do that work for me in the past so I never learnt to tidy up. 
Not having a flunky any more my shop is a mess.
I am trying to get this new one organised from the start but so far its not looking promising.


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## Janderso

One of my best most productive techs is a slob. His workbench is a stack of tools.
This morning I walked by his stall, the floor had been swept and mopped by our janitor, his Tools were put away.
I said, what’s going on? I’m waiting for my 9:00. It was 10:30. He had a break in the action.
It happens this time of year.


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## 7milesup

savarin said:


> I am incapable of working tidily. I detest cleaning up after a job it wastes so much time before you can start the next one.
> *I put it down to always having flunkies to do that work for me in the past so I never learnt to tidy up.
> Not having a flunky any more my shop is a mess.*
> I am trying to get this new one organised from the start but so far its not looking promising.



.....


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## Janderso

Oooooooooooo. For shame


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## 7milesup

I'm sorry..  Probably a "wee" bit outta line there..


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## uncle harry

pontiac428 said:


> My brain geo-tags and catalogs the last location of anything I touch in the shop (house, closet, etc.) and retains it for sometimes years.  The problem is when someone else (wife, curious friends, etc.) touches something and puts it down six inches from where it was when they picked it up.  Then it's game over, I won't be able to locate it.  Eventually I'll have enough hooks, pegs, and drawers to keep the horizontal surfaces clear, but that's an ongoing project that spans the decades.



I used to be able tp find things like you do. Since I hired a very good friend to assist me that skill has vanished.  He loves to layer things instead of leaving them visible.  He is great for cleaning machines and floor sweeping though.


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## Tozguy

My blessed Mom had a sign in the kitchen that said:
''May this house be clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy.''


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## Cheeseking

Or 
A clean house is a sign of a mis- spent life.


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## Boswell

it is an interesting that an obsession for precision in what we build does not always translate to a precision in our working environment.  
At least for me


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## brino

Tozguy said:


> My blessed Mom had a sign in the kitchen that said:
> ''May this house be clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy.''



You've inspired me to think about one for my shop.....maybe something like:



> May this shop be clean enough to be safe, but used enough to be dirty!



That would be a great thing to have plasma cut and mounted.......

-brino


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## Aukai

A messy shop is a happy shop, and my shop is delirious


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## hman

Sincere thanks to @Tozguy and @brino !  Almost wish I could do needlepoint  ... but I will find a way to put one or both up in my shop.


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## mmcmdl

Aukai said:


> A messy shop is a happy shop, and my shop is delirious



Ha ! Well you know what mine must be !


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## Aukai

Very well stocked


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## mmcmdl

Aukai said:


> Very well stocked



LOL ,


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## lis2323

I decided to bite the bullet and hire someone to help clean the shop  and I haven't been happier. 








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## Richard-B

I find when I am into a project I have tunnel vision to finish it, which precludes cleaning as I go. Once the project is finished I have stuff everywhere, rags, tools, swarf, paint tins etc. The shed (Yes, I'm Australian) will stay that way until the next project. Before starting the next job I always start with a cleaned up work space.

Once I have cleaned the shed, I vow to clean as I go....that lasts about 2 hours.


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## Janderso

Richard-B said:


> Once I have cleaned the shed, I vow to clean as I go....that lasts about 2 hours.


I tried that, then I'm going back to get the same thing I just put back.


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## Buffalo21

I can get 10# of crap into a 5# bag, where I struggle, is with that 11#.........................


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## rmantoo

I recently watched a CNCNY youtube video wherein he toured a machine shop in, iirc, L.A.  They make vacuum table fixtures for use in VMCs and such... 

They were talking about efficiency in the workplace and how clean the shop was, when the owner said that they didn't clean up, at all, at the end of the day:  Instead, they worked until the end of the day, leaving everything as-is, and started each day by cleaning the entire shop.

His stated reasoning was that at the end of the day, everyone was often tired, and relatively inattentive, often having worked late, or very hard, to meet deadlines, etc, so if they cleaned up then they would not focus, would rush through cleaning so they could get home, would do a half-arsed job, etc.

By cleaning at the start of the day, everyone was fresh, attentive, and did a MUCH better job.  Makes sense to me.  That shop was immaculate.  

Likewise, in my own home shop, I often work very late, trying to get something done before bed, so cleaning is, at best, not very thorough.  I used to joke that I had to clean up before starting any project... now I do so intentionally.  It's made a HUGE difference in my attitude and effectiveness.


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## Aukai

Yes if I have things to make, if I'm between projects I will clean a day, or so after when I'm rested.


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## rabler

Cleaning isn't a binary thing for me, I have a whole menu of cleaning options:
 Put away tools, clean up chips/swarf, organize a project, etc.    Since I usually get limited time in the shop between other things, I often have cleaning days.  In a lot of ways that's easier for me, if the goal is cleaning I'm happy if I can see a difference.  If the goal is to build something, serious cleaning is a distraction/nuisance.


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## Cheeseking

Before during and after LOL!


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## macardoso

In my old house, I never cleaned up and was always fighting to find space on a workbench. When I moved and started over on the shop, I made sure each tool had a place, even if that was sitting on a shelf in a specific place. Now cleanup is much easier and I stay on top of it. Makes the whole shop more fun too.


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## Larry$

I cleanup at the end of every shop session. Put everything away and sweep. I hate spending time looking for stuff. I'm just going through a re-arrange so all similar items are kept together. I salvaged a big control cabinet and put shelves in place of the electronics. Freed up space to collect more junk.


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## sdelivery

brino said:


> I typically do it the other way and can definitely confirm your suspicion!
> -brino


AMEN


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## jwmay

I'm not an especially productive hobby machinist. I barely make anything. So with all the extra time I have (thinking about how I will make something) my shop gets plenty of cleaning.  It's also a bit meditative.
So I guess what I'm saying is, after a long day of cleaning the shop, I'm usually too tired for machining. I like to do a little machining first thing in the morning, and then clean the rest of the day.


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## westerner

rabler said:


> if the goal is cleaning I'm happy if I can see a difference.


Yup. It all depends on the situation. 

I do, tho, TRY to clean up enough at the end of the day to make my tomorrow morning start on the right foot.
Big jobs are different, (and a lot less frequent these days) but small jobs seem to go better if I can start with a clean slate.


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## mmcmdl

Aukai said:


> A messy shop is a happy shop, and my shop is delirious





lis2323 said:


>


Ok , yeah ............I give up . Is she still for hire ?


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## Aukai

Did you check your messages?


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## mmcmdl

Hm...........................this crew would work


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## Just for fun

Well,  this cleaning up thread took an unexpected turn.  

I'm not good at cleaning, but after I do any cutting, welding and grinding I always clean up that mess.   My work benchs get clutter frequently it seems.

There are always little projects around the farm that I'll take care of then end up laying stuff on the work bench when I'm done.   Next thing I know is a mess. 

 Before starting a big project or working on my Hot Rod project it usually takes a few hours of cleaning up and putting stuff away before I get started. 

Once I start working on a project in the shop I try to keep it clean as I go.


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## savarin

Whats wrong with a bit of dust around?


Well, I guess even I must admit this does look better .


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## MrCrankyface

My ambition is to always have a clean shop, I just find it so much easier to concentrate and I become a lot more creative.
Unfortunately the reality is that the second it's clean, I find something to play with and within an hour the shop looks like a disaster again.


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