# Motor Starter Wiring



## dcheff (Aug 5, 2015)

I am finally ready to hook up my new to me lathe when I found out the person who unhooked it unhooked a bit more than they needed to. It is being wired into true 440 3 phase and it has the square d motor starter part number 8736SCO8V02S and it also has the square d 9001BG302 forward/reverse/stop switch. The wire in question for me is the bottom red wire on the stop section of the switch, it runs to the panel and is not terminated right now, and I can not tell where it should be terminated at.


----------



## jim18655 (Aug 5, 2015)

I think that should be the control power into the system. It looks like the coils are rated at 220v . If that's the case you'll need  a 220v circuit to run the starter. Did it come from a 440v system? How's the motor connected? I'd hate to see you let the magic smoke out.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 5, 2015)

That's why I'm asking lol. It came wire for 230v 3 phase, I swapped the motor to 440v.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## mzayd3 (Aug 5, 2015)

You really ought to have a professional electrician do it.  What you think is simple really requires resizing overloads, adding a control transformer (or replacing the contactor coils with 480 volt ones which brings other issues), and a properly sized branch circuit and it's protection.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jim18655 (Aug 5, 2015)

Minimum changes are:
1. Need new control circuit - 220v or new coils
2. Overloads will need to be changed based on motor current at 440v.
3. Rewire the starters since the control circuit is probably connected to one of the incoming lines
4. Motor reconnected for 440v.

If you try starting what you have I'll almost guaranty something will burn out.


----------



## JimDawson (Aug 5, 2015)

I think  jim18655 is correct.


----------



## rdhem2 (Aug 6, 2015)

JimDawson said:


> I think jim18655 is correct.



I *KNOW* jim18655 is correct!  

Hire a Pro.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 6, 2015)

I too know Jim is correct. If you don't have useful information stay out of the thread. I will do this myself as I do everything myself. I know its dangerous that's why I am looking for information. I am basically looking for a wiring schematic so I can change this to what I need, yes it will be a separate control circuit at a lower voltage. I'm sorry I'm not afraid of doing things myself like most of you seem to be but I look at things like this as learning opportunities, I don't get scared and hire a pro.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## jim18655 (Aug 6, 2015)

I have a SqD wiring diagram book at work that might have a schematic for that starter. I'll check, scan it if I do, and post it. What you're looking to do is run the forward button output through the reverse contactor aux switch and the reverse button output through the forward aux switch. The stop button will break the holding or latch circuit causing the coils to drop out. Power into the stop button from the control circuit.
You will need new heater elements rated for the 440 current. They should be about 1/2 the current rating.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 6, 2015)

Thanks Jim, I've already located the 440v coils.  A diagram would be great so I can verify everything.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## John Hasler (Aug 6, 2015)

A word of warning: 440VAC arcs are *not* self-extinguishing.   They can turn into very dangerous explosions.   Do not use any kind of switch, contactor, or disconnector for 440 that is not labeled for that use.  Don't use cords and plugs: hardwire everything and put it in conduit.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 6, 2015)

Thanks for the info. Yes it will be hard wired for sure.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## jim18655 (Aug 6, 2015)

Here's the diagram:


----------



## dcheff (Aug 6, 2015)

jim18655 said:


> Here's the diagram:


Thanks a lot Jim, can't wait to get back to the shop to check this out.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## uncle harry (Aug 7, 2015)

dcheff said:


> I too know Jim is correct. If you don't have useful information stay out of the thread. I will do this myself as I do everything myself. I know its dangerous that's why I am looking for information. I am basically looking for a wiring schematic so I can change this to what I need, yes it will be a separate control circuit at a lower voltage. I'm sorry I'm not afraid of doing things myself like most of you seem to be but I look at things like this as learning opportunities, I don't get scared and hire a pro.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk



I have been successful at downloading wiring diagrams that would be very helpful from the Square D web site.  They are quite extensive and cover most industrial power and control circuits. They start with standard symbols and progress to more involved circuits.


----------



## uncle harry (Aug 7, 2015)

jim18655 said:


> Here's the diagram:



I didn't see this download before I posted the Square D website suggestion.  This looks like it's from that site.  If I am understanding your situation correctly, that is that you are only changing out the motor to 480 VAC, than the addition of a control transformer will be necessary for your application.  You would insert it between the 2  480 VAC lines supplying the circuit with the push buttons and contactor coils which are probably 240 VAC. The overload change out suggestions will also apply.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 7, 2015)

Yes Uncle Harry, I am not sure if I am going to use a transformer, I like the kiss method, keep it simple and with the least amount of parts should keep it the most reliable. Therefore I think I am going to change out the coils so that the control circuit is 480v also. I will know better after this weekend, I am actually having to do some work right now so I cant work on the lathe just yet. But I am hoping the diagram from jim should be enough to get me rolling on this.


----------



## John Hasler (Aug 7, 2015)

dcheff said:


> Yes Uncle Harry, I am not sure if I am going to use a transformer, I like the kiss method, keep it simple and with the least amount of parts should keep it the most reliable. Therefore I think I am going to change out the coils so that the control circuit is 480v also. I will know better after this weekend, I am actually having to do some work right now so I cant work on the lathe just yet. But I am hoping the diagram from jim should be enough to get me rolling on this.


I strongly suggest that you use a transformer.  Lowering the control voltage to 120 will increase reliability more than adding a lump of iron and copper will decrease it.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 7, 2015)

Ok why is that John? Is it really dangerous to have the coils be 480v? I believe everything I have is rated for it besides the overloads and coils (but I will change them out). I am listening, i guess I just do not know why it is a bad idea to go to 480v.


----------



## John Hasler (Aug 7, 2015)

dcheff said:


> Ok why is that John? Is it really dangerous to have the coils be 480v? I believe everything I have is rated for it besides the overloads and coils (but I will change them out). I am listening, i guess I just do not know why it is a bad idea to go to 480v.


Lower voltage means less stress on insulation, less arcing and resulting wear when contacts open, and less damage should a fault occur.  120 components are also less expensive and more readily available.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 7, 2015)

makes perfect sense. I will look into that, I do have a small transformer I can mount on there. Maybe I will just get 120v coils then.


----------



## JimDawson (Aug 8, 2015)

Just one other small note here:  Current code will not allow remote push button voltages greater than 120v.  The only time full voltage push buttons is allowed today is when the buttons are integrated into the starter enclosure by the manufacturer.


----------



## jim18655 (Aug 8, 2015)

JimDawson said:


> Just one other small note here:  Current code will not allow remote push button voltages greater than 120v.  The only time full voltage push buttons is allowed today is when the buttons are integrated into the starter enclosure by the manufacturer.


Interesting. I've been out of the industrial side for awhile now. What code is this? I'm assuming the IEC?


----------



## uncle harry (Aug 8, 2015)

jim18655 said:


> Interesting. I've been out of the industrial side for awhile now. What code is this? I'm assuming the IEC?



I'd assume it's from NFPA 79 Electrical Standard for Industrial Machinery. In Chapter 9.1.1.1 they state  "Where control circuits are supplied from an ac source, control transformers shall be used for supplying the control circuits . Control circuits shall not be derived from autotransformers. Control circuits supplied from windings of multiwinding power transformers shall be permitted if the output voltage of the winding supplying the control circuit does not exceed 120 volts ac and the available short-circuit does not exceed 1000 amperes rms."  When they specify "shall" it is required & not optional.  Reading NFPA 79 can be a 'carreer' pita but if you are designing or producing machinery for others it's recommended to comply.  For personal use equipment nitpicking might be over looked. My only concern would be if one were to sell a machine that "violated" these rules they might be liable legally for any injury.  The above quotes are from NFPA 79 2012 Edition.


----------



## jim18655 (Aug 8, 2015)

I thought of that code just after I posted. I don't have a copy available. It reads like a separate control circuit would be OK if not supplied from a transformer.


----------



## JimDawson (Aug 8, 2015)

jim18655 said:


> I thought of that code just after I posted. I don't have a copy available. It reads like a separate control circuit would be OK if not supplied from a transformer.



A separate circuit is OK, also a circuit supplied by a control transformer is OK, but an autotransformer is not allowed.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 8, 2015)

That's exactly how I read it jimdawson

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## uncle harry (Aug 8, 2015)

JimDawson said:


> A separate circuit is OK, also a circuit supplied by a control transformer is OK, but an autotransformer is not allowed.



I don't think so.   Regarding a separate circuit, they simply state that 120 vac control power SHALL be supplied with a control transformer.  My take on that is that control power is insulated from higher supply voltages and is also current limited.  The 480 vac situation previously discussed would subject operators to potential arc flash since much higher currents can be available. This will preclude using 120 vac from a supply panel if that is what you meant by a separate circuit.  Also, as you probably know, NFPA is the agency that writes the NEC.


----------



## rdhem2 (Aug 8, 2015)

A project such as this is usually way over the head of someone who does not do this work daily.  Hence the reason I suggested earlier to hire a pro.  They have to eat too you know!  The real problem here is safety.  Not only yours but others.  I lived with the NEC and inspectors for over forty years.  I also had a UL508 certification for building industrial control equipment. 

Please, if you won't believe me, believe uncle harry, when the code says you shall, it means you "WILL".  No arguments, no exceptions, no nothing.

Also if you have not checked into it yet, depending on what starter you are dealing with, the parts can be hard to find and damned expensive when you do.  Translation, you can probably buy a used starter for way less then two replacement coils.  Go on fleabay and look up reversing starters.  I have found units there so cheap compared to new it is crazy.  I have purchased units good for 5hp for as little as $40.00.  Only thing left then is to find the correct heaters for the overload block.  All manufacturers have changed to electronic adjustable overloads making finding separate eutectic heaters a harder and more expensive venture.  Keep this in mind when choosing a starter.   Also, believe it or not, electrical components wear out.  Just like most other things so maybe a newer starter even has more merit.

Even after all these years I still do not feel relaxed around 480v equipment like I do at the lower voltages.  Just be safe, 480v will kill you in less than a heartbeat.


----------



## mzayd3 (Aug 8, 2015)

rdhem2 said:


> A project such as this is usually way over the head of someone who does not do this work daily.  Hence the reason I suggested earlier to hire a pro.  They have to eat too you know!  The real problem here is safety.  Not only yours but others.  I lived with the NEC and inspectors for over forty years.  I also had a UL508 certification for building industrial control equipment.



My thoughts exactly.  There very basic nature of the original question suggests that this should be done by a professional.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dcheff (Aug 11, 2015)

Just to update everyone, I have looked into it and agree with the low voltage control circuit, I have ordered the 120v coils and was about to order new thermal units but found out mine are the correct size already, this unit must have been wired for 480 then half assed rewired for 240. I am not a professional, but I never back down from anything. I will sit back and learn what I need to proceed correctly, this will  be done correctly and will not cost me thousands of dollars to have a professional do it.


----------



## uncle harry (Aug 11, 2015)

dcheff said:


> Just to update everyone, I have looked into it and agree with the low voltage control circuit, I have ordered the 120v coils and was about to order new thermal units but found out mine are the correct size already, this unit must have been wired for 480 then half assed rewired for 240. I am not a professional, but I never back down from anything. I will sit back and learn what I need to proceed correctly, this will  be done correctly and will not cost me thousands of dollars to have a professional do it.



Did you find or purchase a control transformer ?


----------



## dcheff (Aug 11, 2015)

I talked with the electrical supplier and they told me to just use the 120 I already have for the control circuit. I have single and 3 phase all around my shop


----------



## uncle harry (Aug 11, 2015)

dcheff said:


> I talked with the electrical supplier and they told me to just use the 120 I already have for the control circuit. I have single and 3 phase all around my shop



The supplier should not, in my opinion, make recommendations that are not up to code. I will strongly suggest that you fuse the 120 vac for the requirements of the coils only and keep that part of any 120 vac used on the machine  separate.  Still not to code but gives added protection. I will stick to the control transformer approach for safety.


----------



## rdhem2 (Aug 11, 2015)

Once again uncle harry strikes with the correct answer.   Suppliers only know what they heard Joe Blow did while taking his order at the sales counter.  And other than taking  your order and taking you to lunch they are not much good for anything.  1 in 20 really knows his ****.  Finding one of those is like striking gold and you should probably take him to lunch!

UL allows a secondary power feed for industrial control equipment.  You SHALL mark the enclosure with the highest voltage rating present and also mark with a suitable engraved placard stating "SEPARATE SOURCE CONTROL POWER".   Thus as a warning to anyone opening the enclosure that there is more than one disconnect to be found.  As previously stated the voltage from this source shall not exceed 120v.  The most popular and available choices being 24vac and 120vac. 

As an after thought, you might be pleasantly amazed of what YOU may LEARN with the right questions from a good electrician on a $75 service call.  Like most true craftsmen, electricians love to discuss their craft.  Generally if they seem secretive, it is probably because he does not know much.


----------



## uncle harry (Aug 11, 2015)

rdhem2 said:


> Once again uncle harry strikes with the correct answer.   Suppliers only know what they heard Joe Blow did while taking his order at the sales counter.  And other than taking  your order and taking you to lunch they are not much good for anything.  1 in 20 really knows his ****.  Finding one of those is like striking gold and you should probably take him to lunch!
> 
> UL allows a secondary power feed for industrial control equipment.  You SHALL mark the enclosure with the highest voltage rating present and also mark with a suitable engraved placard stating "SEPARATE SOURCE CONTROL POWER".   Thus as a warning to anyone opening the enclosure that there is more than one disconnect to be found.  As previously stated the voltage from this source shall not exceed 120v.  The most popular and available choices being 24vac and 120vac.
> 
> ...



Jim brings to mind another point regarding remote power sources.  NFPA 78 2012 states  in 13.2.4.1  "The color ORANGE shall be used to identify ungrounded conductors that remain energized when the main supply circuit disconnecting means is in the off position. This color identification shall be strictly reserved for this application only."     (the old code specified yellow as the required color for remotely "active" conductors).  Again, NFPA 79 is a code specifically directed toward industrial machinery. Any machine that can be used in industry naturally applies even if it's in a hobby situation. My only intent in submitting all of this is safety.   PS: NFPA 79 has an updated version.  I just can't justify shelling out over 50 bucks + shipping for a few paragraphs of "improvement".


----------



## BobSchu (Aug 12, 2015)

NFPA 79 applies to industrial manufactured equipment but not necessarily equipment wired in place or customer supplied wiring, which field control wiring falls into that category. We often supply secondary voltage control circuits to machinery that is wired in the field. All of the above mentioned safeguards need to be in place and in addition, a secondary voltage supply must have a separate disconnecting means clearly marked at the controller location. 
Refusing to pay for help in a situation where making a mistake can cost you large sums in replacing equipment or sustaining injury is foolish, in my opinion and reeks of being cheap. Most electricians who work  on industrial control equipment have taken years to learn their trade and could probably do this job in a matter of an hour or so, not including supplying the control circuit from the source to the equipment itself. Being too cheap to have an expert do a job like this could easily result in an injury and/or liability issue- but of course, you're not "scared" of that so have at it. You've been given good advice here, it's up to you to heed it or not. 

Bob


----------



## John Hasler (Aug 12, 2015)

BobSchu said:


> You've been given good advice here, it's up to you to heed it or not


And if he carefully follows it and has a basic understanding of electricity he'll be ok.  No need to hire an electrician for this.


----------



## dcheff (Aug 12, 2015)

Thank you John, I came here for an additional source of info, there are obviously a bunch of smart people here. This has nothing to do with being cheap, saving money is just a bonus. I'm a mechanic and went to college for aviation maintenance where I took a ton of electrical classes. I'm a little rusty on it for sure but I do understand it. The whole part of doing it myself is old fashioned pride in myself and the fact that as a mechanic I have to figure things out, its in my nature. 

Just so you guys know your lathes and mills are very dangerous, you shouldn't use them if your not a professional machinist, you should hire a machinist to do your work for you. This is what it looks like when you tell me to hire an electrician. 

Aside from the heckling I truly appreciate all of the help I have received on this

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## BobSchu (Aug 12, 2015)

Well, I wish  you well on this install. I hope that everything goes well and your starter works first time when you test it. I stand by my comments for one reason- as an electrician with 38 years experience, mostly installing and wiring industrial equipment and servicing that equipment later, the absolute worst repairs and rewiring jobs I've had to do were when a customer did his own wiring. It usually involved replacing very expensive parts... After seeing in your first post that the motor would be connected to "true 440V 3 phase" then alluding to connecting it to 480V power, I started to wonder if there may be a problem? I truly hope that isn't the  case.

Besides, there is a big difference between heckling and concern for safety. Have you ever seen a 480V controller explode? 

Bob


----------



## rdhem2 (Aug 14, 2015)

A little off topic here but it fits.  uncle harry, I  enjoyed your comment about marking conductors with the color orange.  This color by NEC identifies the conductor with the highest voltage in a 240V, 3PH, DELTA supply.  High leg, wild leg, crazy leg are all terms I have heard used.  Any way my wife and I frequently argue about the colors orange and red, each accusing the other of being color blind.

The only other place I remember red being mentioned is as the "B" phase conductor of a 208-120V, 3PH WYE supply.  Although I have never seen it printed, I have notice the color code used in US industry is as follows.

Black        Power
White       Neutral
Gray              "
Green                             Earth ground
Green w/ yellow tracer     "           "
Red           120vac control
Yellow       24vac       "
Blue          24vdc       "

Knowing this it is very handy when troubleshooting an unknown piece of equipment.  If nothing else just so you do not blow your meter up by not having set to the correct scale.

Anybody else experience this?

I also also enjoyed how people call a certified, tested electrician and are dumbfounded when he does not have a machine he has never seen before repaired and up and running in five minutes or less.  After all he is a professional isn't he?


----------



## rdhem2 (Aug 14, 2015)

BobSchu said:


> Besides, there is a big difference between heckling and concern for safety. Have you ever seen a 480V controller explode?



*Louder than a stick of dynamite!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## BobSchu (Aug 14, 2015)

In the US and Canada, for the most part circuits are marked according to voltage and phase. 

120/208V Wye connected 3 phase
A phase- black
B phase- red
C phase- blue
Neutral- white

120/240V single phase
A phase- black
B phase- red
Neutral- white

120/240V Delta connected
A phase- black
B phase- orange (high leg)
C phase- blue
Neutral (if present) - white

277/480V Wye 3 phase
A phase- brown
B phase- orange
C phase- yellow
Neutral- natural gray

These color markings are traditional but not required by the electrical code except for the neutral colors which "Shall" follow the code colors noted above and may not be used otherwise except for very narrow exceptions. The code does mention the phase colors in a sub text, but does not mandate their use. 

440V is supplied from a Delta connected transformer and is very uncommon these days unless you are in an industrial setting with very high motor loads. Even then it is uncommon. Unless you are a maintenance electrician in a plant, it would be unusual for most people to ever encounter 440V 3 phase or 440V/240V 3 phase. (open or closed delta connection)

In some areas, the 120/240V Delta connected supply may have the high leg on C phase, requiring the orange marking. This is dependent on the rules the utility uses and how they supply the incoming power in your area. In this case, B phase would be marked red. 

Bob


----------



## John Hasler (Aug 14, 2015)

BobSchu said:


> 440V is supplied from a Delta connected transformer and is very uncommon these days unless you are in an industrial setting with very high motor loads. Even then it is uncommon. Unless you are a maintenance electrician in a plant, it would be unusual for most people to ever encounter 440V 3 phase or 440V/240V 3 phase. (open or closed delta connection)


However, in sloppy usage "440" is often used to mean "480 just as "110" is often used instead of "120".


----------



## uncle harry (Aug 14, 2015)

rdhem2 said:


> A little off topic here but it fits.  uncle harry, I  enjoyed your comment about marking conductors with the color orange.  This color by NEC identifies the conductor with the highest voltage in a 240V, 3PH, DELTA supply.  High leg, wild leg, crazy leg are all terms I have heard used.  Any way my wife and I frequently argue about the colors orange and red, each accusing the other of being color blind.
> 
> The only other place I remember red being mentioned is as the "B" phase conductor of a 208-120V, 3PH WYE supply.  Although I have never seen it printed, I have notice the color code used in US industry is as follows.
> 
> ...




Your color listing is correct according to NFPA 79 2012.  They do specify black for all incoming power above 120 VAC.  The old B  O Y specification is now black for all 3 lines.  They SHALL be labeled L1, L2 and L3 as well.  I hope everyone understands that my submissions on this topic are intended for safety awareness (including awareness of meticulous inspectors authority).


----------



## BobSchu (Aug 14, 2015)

John,
Your statement assumes that 440V and 480V are interchangable when connecting equipment. Not so in many cases. Many motors designed for 460/480V supply don't work well on a 440V supply.
Now, in slang usage 460 and 480 are discussed in the same vein, but not 440V. At least not by electricians who work around these voltages. 

Bob


----------



## John Hasler (Aug 14, 2015)

BobSchu said:


> Your statement assumes that 440V and 480V are interchangable when connecting equipment.


No, I just noted that the terms "440" and "480" are often used as if they were interchangeable.  I described the usage as sloppy.


----------



## BobSchu (Aug 14, 2015)

uncle harry said:


> Your color listing is correct according to NFPA 79 2012.  They do specify black for all incoming power above 120 VAC.  The old B  O Y specification is now black for all 3 lines.  They SHALL be labeled L1, L2 and L3 as well.  I hope everyone understands that my submissions on this topic are intended for safety awareness (including awareness of meticulous inspectors authority).


 
Perhaps in manufacturing wiring that may be true. However, in field wiring and industrial installations the Black, Red, Blue and BOY designations are alive and well. We still use this designation and in many cases in the buildings we have been constructing lately, phase tape markings are not allowed and we are required by specification to order color coded insulation on all of our wire jackets for feeders and branch circuits, regardless of size. Ordering everything from #12 THHN up to 750KCM wire in color coded jackets can get very expensive. Customers like Intel and various Data centers are willing to bear the cost to avoid any chance of a mistake being made which could cause disruptions in electrical service or damage to machines. 

Bob


----------



## rdhem2 (Aug 15, 2015)

WOW!!!!!  500mcm in a nice orange or yellow for example, in a 40' length for example.  Now that would indeed be an expensive proposition.  Probably why most wire above #6 or #4 comes in any color you wish as long as it is black!!!!!!   Not many contractors I know can afford to stock 1000' reels of large wire in even the basic colors.  I have seen it but is not the norm.

Gentlemen--on the voltage designators, have we forgotton the 10% line variation allowed by code?  Lets see, 480v- 10% =  432v.  Hence covering the 440 nomenclature.  In our area high voltage is sometimes a problem.  The power company practice is to set the taps on the transformers up a notch or two when they expect to see large motor loads.  510v to 520v is not uncommon and is a little hard on small motors but does not seem to bother the larger units.  Have had to have them come out and "lower" the voltage in a couple instantances to reduce motor failure.


----------



## BobSchu (Aug 15, 2015)

The problem with motors isn't the allowable 10% voltage drop. Depending on the design of the motor, many motors don't operate well outside the voltage allowance the manufacturer recommends. This is quite often in the 5% range for very large motors and slightly more for smaller motors. If there is a problem with substantial voltage variations in some plants, a buck/boost transformer can be installed to stabilize the voltage. We do this quite often when a building has 208V 3 phase power and the motors on a machine or manufacturing line are supplied as 240V. A separate supply panel would be installed with a boosting transformer to bring the voltage in line with needed supply then the branch circuits would be supplied only by that panel, including the control power. Same type of thing can and will be done if a 440V motor would be run on a 480V supply, however 440V motors are so rare these days that this isn't really an issue in most instances. If you don't pay attention to these details you can get into all kind of power factor issues and excess billing issues in big industrial plants. 

Yes, the wire with colored jackets can get very expensive. Last time I checked pricing (at least several years ago) on 500 KCM wire, it was running about $12 a foot in black, the upgrade for the colored jackets is around $1-$2 per foot. A couple weeks ago, we pulled in 12,000 feet of 4/0 colored jacket 120/208V (black, red, blue, white) feeders for 12 new panels in a data center. Hate to see the wire bill for that job. 

I'm feeling a little foolish that we've kidnapped this topic from the original poster. 

Bob


----------



## Keith Foor (Aug 30, 2015)

Curious to see how this turns out.  I know it was discussed about bringing in 120 control voltage from another source and it needing to be properly labeled but don't forget about lockout tag out requirements if this is in an industrial setting (I assume since you are running the unit on 480 it IS in a business and not a home or back garage.  Only other thing I will say about the call a professional, that is a specific description to a broader statement.  There are a number of folks around that are plant or shop electricians that you may even know that would probably assist you in your endeavors for a six pack after the work is done.  I have done many things for pizza and coke (I don't drink beer).  Again I know it's been stated, but it's significant enough to repeat, 480 3 phase is unforgiving to mistakes.  The reason is two fold.  The first is that most people that tell you they got hit by 220 frankly didn't.  It takes being across both phases in a residential setting to get hit by 220.  So even if you were wiring up your drier or stove and it shocked you,,, it was only 120 volts.  480 is 277 to neutral, if it hits you, you will typically never know it.  You're just gone.  Some survive it, but it's typically always bad.  You will never just say damn that hurt.  Second as mentioned earlier is 480 will create a sustaining arc.  I personally watched a guy wire up an exterior light that didn't have good coloring of the wire (it was a multivoltage light) he connected it for 277 and it should have been 480 wired.  When the 600 amp fuse finally let go the panel that the breaker was in he flipped finally quit glowing red.  The arc created from the breaker blowing open held and worked out of the breaker and to the buss bars in the panel.  It vaporized the copper bus bars from the bottom of the panel where the breaker was at up to almost the input lugs.  All the insulation for all the wiring in the panel was burnt away, and the repair ended up being close to $7000 to replace the panel, install an enclosure above the panel, cut and terminate all the conduit back to the enclosure and extend the wiring down to the new breaker panel.  It of course could have been much worse.   Of course it blew the light in question off the side of the building and into the parking lot.  But that was minor.  Finding a professional doesn't necessarily mean spend a bunch of money.  And be aware of something else.  Since you are most likely in an industrial setting and not in your back garage.  Most zoning and code enforcement does require a licensed electrician to work on commercial electricity. And remember that it has to be wired that only one contactor can be closed at a time.  If you allow both the forward and reverse contactor to close it WILL blow your control box right off the machine and tend to do all the other ugly stuff mentioned above.


----------



## Keith Foor (Aug 31, 2015)

I forgot to mention the other part, which applies to the case of it being a commercial facility and not a 480 generator in the back yard.  All that was mentioned above was in a commercial 280000 square foot warehouse of a third party logistics business.  That fuse that blew fed that panel and two others.  We lost 3 days of productivity for a building that had 100 workers in it.   Nothing of course worked because we didn't have power for 3 days while the repairs were made.  The lost productivity number was close to 1 million dollars.  The repair didn't cost what we would have earned in interest on the money that it cost the company in the time it took to get the repairs completed.  And I do understand wanting to do it yourself.  I do it myself including the very work that you are talking about.  But I am not rusty, or forgetful of how it needs to be done.  And although it's not been said here but only alluded to, I am not as careful with others feelings.  If you are rusty, not sure, confused, confounded or otherwise not 100% confident that immediately after reading this that you can without assistance or instruction walk out to the machine and wire it without diagrams or assistance, you need to get help doing it.  Not assistance from the internet.  Not something you read on line and think will work,,,, absolute certainty that what you are doing is 100% correct, don't.  You are quite frankly working with explosives, even though it's not a bomb, it will act like one if you do the wrong thing.  You simply can't make a mistake, not a minor goof, not a oh, gee whiz I should have noticed that,,, not at all.  At minimum it will cost you the machine, if you are lucky.  If you aren't so lucky it will kill or maim you for life.  Like I said it's a bomb.  You can only connect the wires one way and it not explode.  Any other way and boom.  If you are not sure to the point that you would bet your life on it, and the safety of everyone there when you turn on the switch, don't.


----------



## rdhem2 (Sep 1, 2015)

Spot on Keith.  Said better than I could ever do..............

Good advise at most any cost is better then the alternative.  Especially in this case.


----------



## dcheff (Sep 1, 2015)

I'm getting smarter every time you guys post so feel free. BTW just an update but I think I need to get the motor rewound. Moving shops right now so it's on the back burner for a moment

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## John Hasler (Sep 1, 2015)

Keith Foor said:


> If you are ... not 100% confident that immediately after reading this that you can without assistance or instruction walk out to the machine and wire it without diagrams or assistance,


And if you are, refer to the diagrams anyway.  I would not hire an electrician who would attempt to wire up a 480 controller without looking at the drawings.


----------



## Keith Foor (Sep 3, 2015)

What makes you think the motor is bad?


----------



## dcheff (Sep 3, 2015)

Burned the thermal unit on one leg instantly. Haven't even had a chance to ohm it out

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## 4GSR (Sep 4, 2015)

dcheff said:


> Burned the thermal unit on one leg instantly. Haven't even had a chance to ohm it out
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk



Are you sure you have the 9 lead motor connected correctly?
It is very easy to get 1 and 7 , 5 and 6 confused with each other...I'm guilty of it...


----------



## dcheff (Sep 4, 2015)

I checked it twice before I plugged it in, its right

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## Keith Foor (Sep 5, 2015)

Yes, it you burnt a thermal resistor immediately upon power up of the motor, you have one of three things.  First is a phase to ground short.  Second is an incorrectly wired motor, you said that's not the case, and lastly, you have very bad motor.  I have tried starting locked motors a number of times before and they typically grunt and moan and kick the breaker or blow a fuse.  For a thermal to open quickly it requires a LOT of current.  I am curious, did the motor even begin to spin, grunt or show any signs of attempting to spin up?


----------



## dcheff (Sep 5, 2015)

It spun up sounding normal. It's the original motor. I will have time to check it out in the next week or so. There was a wiring diagram right by the motor and each of the wires had the metal tags to identify them

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## Keith Foor (Sep 5, 2015)

Well, if it sounded normal and was not grunting and you didn't have any other abnormal activity, you might replace the thermal or pull the motor and have it tested at a motor shop.  When we had the power panel go up it shook the building.  When you say it burnt, you are saying physically burnt in two, or it tripped quickly?  Also, I think you said that you checked the sizing on the thermals for the voltage change but I can't remember.  Was this machine running when you acquired it and it was wired for 208 / 3phase or was it a non-running machine from a barn somewhere?  Reason I ask is  if the old owner was trying to get it to run on single phase in a barn or garage, he may have stressed the heaters enough that they just couldn't take anymore and failed.  I guess I am wondering how immediate the failure was.  Three phase motors don't start well when there is a lost phase.  They don't run well with a dropped phase either.


----------



## dcheff (Sep 5, 2015)

Burnt it within ten seconds, it is the b11.5 which is correct for 5hp at 480v

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## mzayd3 (Sep 6, 2015)

Try it without the belts attaches.  Overloads tripping are indicative of load issues.  A short would show up as a blown fuse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

