# ' 57 Noisy Clausing Colchester 13 Gear Noise :(



## dansawyer (Jun 13, 2021)

I purchased a 1957 Clausing Colchester 13x36 gearhead lathe. My main concern was spindle runout and alignment. I thought that hardened ways would protect the ways.I did not pay enough attention to the head drive gears; bad on me for not checking everything out. The long and the short is there is considerable gear noise.
First the lathe has a 2 speed motor. On high the drive train is noisy throughout, much worse on high speed. The noise is sufficiently bad I would not operate the lathe in this mode. Second on low speed it is noisy but not past the point where I would operate it.
I have changed the oil and replace it with ISO 43 oil I removed the cover an inspected the noise source. The drive has three shafts, the drive shaft, the idler shaft, and the spindle shaft. There are two gear pairs from the idler shaft to the spindle shaft, controlled by a gear selector lever on the front of the housing. Both of these positions cause the majority of the noise. (If I place that selector in neutral and run the two drive shaft selectors through the four positions the machine is quite quiet. The noise is not coming from the driven shaft to idler shaft gears.)
There are posts on noise from these machines. Is there a reason it would make more noise across all speed when the motor is in high? This leads me to speculate the noise is somehow 'referred'; this is a leap but I do not want to miss anything.
If it is the gears does anyone happen to know of anyone parting out a machine that might have better gears?


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## benmychree (Jun 13, 2021)

Get ear plugs.


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## dirty tools (Jun 13, 2021)

Check the gear mesh and alignment


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## FOMOGO (Jun 13, 2021)

Is there visible wear on any of the gears? My EWAG is it is more likely to be bearing, bushing, or worn shaft issues than the gears themselves. I would check the fit of all the movable gears on their respective shafts for any tilting off the shaft center line.  Some close up pics would help. Another option would be to drain off about half of your oil, and replace with some Lucas oil additive, and see if that quiets things down some. Mike


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## dansawyer (Jun 13, 2021)

Gear wear: There are original horozonal machining marks on the end of all the gears. That said there are small tips on one of the corners, always on the same side of the gear. On some gears it in on the tailstock side and others on the back side. The tips are all similar and are about 10 to 15 thou. 
The majority of the noise is coming from the idler shaft drive gears as they drive the main spindle gears. How can the bushings be tested? 
How can gear mesh and alignment be tested? 
When I changed the oil there was measurable black soot, however the total was not significnat. There is a lot of free play, backlash in the gear train. It that design, wear, or alignmnet?


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## FOMOGO (Jun 14, 2021)

Here is what a quick search brought up. https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28765/how-to-inspect-a-gearbox-  I've rebuilt quite a few transmissions, and differentials over the years. Pretty much the same procedure. Here is a video of a head stock disassembly which you might find helpful. Clausing may well be able to give you wear limit specs, and test procedures for your specific machine. Mike


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## dansawyer (Jun 14, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> Here is what a quick search brought up. https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28765/how-to-inspect-a-gearbox-  I've rebuilt quite a few transmissions, and differentials over the years. Pretty much the same procedure. Here is a video of a head stock disassembly which you might find helpful. Clausing may well be able to give you wear limit specs, and test procedures for your specific machine. Mike


Thank you, that is informative. I will start by taking micro photographs of the teeth. 

A primary difference, and dissapointment, between the Colchester gearbox and a transmission is these teeth are straight cut and speeds are selected by sliding gears into position. In a manual transmission of the same era the teeth are a constant contact design and the speeds are selected by engaging shafts with servos and collars. Straight cut gears are inherantly noisy, I am not sure if they are more subject to wear?


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## Janderso (Jun 14, 2021)

It would be great if you could find someone with a like model to compare. Gear heads with spur gears do make noise.
Helical and herringbone cut gears are quieter.
You may want to check the spindle runout at the mt taper. When warm it should be about half a thou.
If it's excessive, you need bearings IMHO


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## Lo-Fi (Jun 14, 2021)

Inspecting large gears for wear is a pretty straightforward visual inspection. Straight cut gears are inherently noisy regardless. 

I'd look at bearings first, though. Unless it's been heroically abused with no oil, it's far more likely it needs bearing attention than replacement gears. Worn bearings can make gear trains far noisier if they don't hold them in perfect mesh too.


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## Janderso (Jun 14, 2021)

benmychree said:


> Get ear plugs.


A heck of a lot cheaper and easier.


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## dansawyer (Jun 14, 2021)

Lo-Fi said:


> Inspecting large gears for wear is a pretty straightforward visual inspection. Straight cut gears are inherently noisy regardless.
> 
> I'd look at bearings first, though. Unless it's been heroically abused with no oil, it's far more likely it needs bearing attention than replacement gears. Worn bearings can make gear trains far noisier if they don't hold them in perfect mesh too.


The noise is from the last gears in the drive chain. They are on the idler shaft driving the main gears on the spindle. The spindle itself is tight, however the gears slide on the spindle. The idler shaft drive gear is a dual gear, that is a single piece with a gear at each end, the speed is dependant position of the gears on the spindle. 
That to me means there is a bushing on the idler shaft and potential wear on the splines on the spindle shaft. I will try to measure those.


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## john.k (Jun 15, 2021)

The spindle has single flat key.....Older Colchesters are pretty well known for gear noise,some much worse than others.....Basically,there is nothing you can do ,except to investigate if there isnt a resonating panel or something like that.......Also ,beware of thinking the gears are standard.....they look a like 10DP,but arent......They have "faked" the pitch circles to get the ratios they wanted.......One other point is the very early lathes have finer pitch gears throughout ,so be careful if you buy spares .....And never let the oil level get low,the rear Gamet spindle bearing will seize.......In fact the rear spindle bearing is always the first to go,due to the heavy spring loading.


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## dansawyer (Jun 16, 2021)

Thank you all for the input. A follow up observation: The lathe makes significantly less noise in reverse. This leads me to the conclusion that the noise is not due to alignment or bushings/bearings but actually to worn gears.
The good news is the spindle bearings appear to be in very good shape.


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## Lo-Fi (Jun 16, 2021)

Can you turn the gears around so they're running on the other faces running forwards?


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## dansawyer (Jun 16, 2021)

Lo-Fi said:


> Can you turn the gears around so they're running on the other faces running forwards?


Wow. That is a fantastic idea. It is the main high low final output pairs that are making the most noise. They are both solid and mirror images of each other. I will look into truning the pair around. That would entail removing the idler shaft and the main spindle. Otherwise it should work. That should extend the life of the machine significantliy.


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## john.k (Jun 17, 2021)

I cant see the spindle gears being a problem.....they are big gears,and would wear much slower than the small ones ......the middle shaft gears wear both sides of the tooth ,and the back shaft gears are quite small...........one thing I noticed is that some of the gears wernt meshing fully,the detent needed adjusting .....but before that can be done,the wear ridge needs to be removed .....I used a stone,but a small file should be OK..............an odd thing about Colchester gears is they are not very hard,despite being induction hardened.


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## dansawyer (Jun 17, 2021)

I  do not understand what you mean by 'detent'. These are sliding gears, not like a normal auto transmission. I observe the sliding interface alignment is correct, that is the gears line up. However the mesh is less than complete, there seems to be excessive space. It is like the shafts are slightly too far apart. 
I had thought that in forward all the gears only wore only on one side. I will check that. 
Finally there are definitely ware small ridges. I can feel them with a small metal tool like a screwdriver blade. Is your suggestion to file the ridges off? That would be best done if they were removed. Removing the middle shaft should not be too much of a problem. It would be interesting to revove that shaft and file the ridges to see if there were a significant noise reduction. 
Do you have a suggestion on removal?


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## john.k (Jun 18, 2021)

EDIT....earlier version with cast iron levers is a bit different.....The detents are spring loaded balls in the casting,near the pivot points ....the lever have round notches to locate the shifter forks (back shaft)...or is it the other way round?......anyway,if there are ridges in the gears,it means they arent completely aligned ......on the back shaft ,the sliding gear nearest the chuck is usually out of alignment one way or the other.........(next ,check this info ,my memory aint what it was).......to get the intermediate shaft out ,knock out the tapered pin in one of the gears ,extract one of the bushes from the casting(it has a screw hole for extraction),and then use the shaft to knock out the opposite bushing...if necessary.


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