# Milling Vise Alignment In 13 Seconds



## gr8legs

I rarely remove the vise from the milling machine - just too much fussing around to get it back parallel to the table axis.

A recent project required several change-outs of vise and hold downs - so I came up with something that gets my vise alignment down to a few seconds, rather than the 3-5 minutes of twiddling and swearing.

Before removing the vise I put a laser pointer (I use a rectangular level with a laser included, but any laser of suitable size will probably work) into the vise and shoot a dot of light at the wall about 20 feet from the milling machine.

I mark the spot on the wall with a post-it note (and also make note of the Y-Position of the mill) and then remove the vise and do whatever other operation I have to do.

When it comes time to re-mount the vise I put it onto the mill table, put the laser back into the vise and reset the Y-Axis to the previous setting. 

Now it's a simple task to jockey the vise around until the laser dot is spotted onto the same location on the wall - and the vise is right back in the same alignment!

Easy Peasy! Probably infinitely repeatable as long as the mill stays in the same spot and no earthquakes intervene and accurate enough for most jobs.


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## Firestopper

Out of curiosity, did you indicate to confirm as a laser dot (not sharp) can still be off a few thou without noticing.


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## RJSakowski

How do you reproduce the y position of the vise on the table?  My vise has two bosses on the bottom side but when they are in contact with the side of the Tee slot, the vise is aligned so I wouldn't need the laser.  I found that as I tighten the mounting bolts, the vise will walk a bit so I bias the vise by placing a short length of 2 x 4 between the back of the vise base and use the column to bias the vise while tightening.  It will generally get me to about .001" over 4".

Have you made any measurements regarding  accuracy and reproducibility?


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## Eddyde

firestopper said:


> Out of curiosity, did you indicate to confirm as a laser dot (not sharp) can still be off a few thou without noticing.


I think if the dot is 20 feet away the error at the vise will be so small it would be negligible.


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## RJSakowski

Eddyde said:


> I think if the dot is 20 feet away the error at the vise will be so small it would be negligible.


Twenty feet is 240 inches.  If the dot is 1/4" in diameter, .25/240 is about .001"/".  I typically align my vise to be less than .001"/4" which would correspond to .060" @ 20 ft.

However, for many operations, .001"/" is sufficiently accurate enough and the 13 seconds mounting time is very attractive.

I wondered about the reproducibility because most laser leveling devices typically quote 1/8" inch accuracy.


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## Firestopper

My point was, I have yet to use a commercial laser that is not blurry around the edges or truly round for that matter, so repointing to the exact spot could be tricky resulting in error. Indicating the vise would confirm how close this technique works. The whole technique makes sense minus the blurred distorted dot.


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## JimDawson

Hmmm, Gonna have to try that.


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## gr8legs

RJSakowski said:


> I wondered about the reproducibility because most laser leveling devices typically quote 1/8" inch accuracy.



I don't depend on the level to do any leveling, just repeatably positionable in the same spot in the vise. I bottom the laser in the vise and then align the vise by comparing the horizontal position of the dot on the wall with my previous mark. Although I use an 'X' to mark the center of the laser dot, I suppose I could draw a box around it to better delineate exactly where the spot should align to.

Also, I'd guess a round-barrel laser flashlight would not be reliable for this as the beam is not guaranteed to be concentric to the flashlight barrel axis. 

One other thing - as the table slots are wider than the bolts holding the vise I make sure that the same side of the vise is 'thunked' against the slot so I only move one end of the vise while aligning it to the mark on the wall.

Stu


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## Eddyde

firestopper said:


> My point was, I have yet to use a commercial laser that is not blurry around the edges or truly round for that matter, so repointing to the exact spot could be tricky resulting in error. Indicating the vise would confirm how close this technique works. The whole technique makes sense minus the blurred distorted dot.


Agreed they are a bit blurry, however one can easily align a laser dot much it better than+- .25" and as pointed out above, even that much error at 20' would only be a thou off at the vise.


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## Tony Wells

Get a longer shop......shoot it out the door at the neighbor's house.......a nearby (but not too close) tree target.


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## Randy_m

If you remove your vice a lot like I do, do as follows.  
1. Mount an angle plate on your mill parallel to to x axis.
2. Flip your vice over and clamp it on the angle plate. 
3. Put a jack under the "long" side to support the weight.
4. Indicate the vice in the Y axis to .000 +/- .001. Use the jack for this.
5. Mill a slot aprox. .050 deep, centered on your "bolt down ears". Cut the slot WIDER than your T-slot. I.E. 3/4 slot for a 5/8 T-slot ect.
6.  Now get a piece of 3/4 key stock, screw this down into your new slot. (Drill and tap ect.)
7. Use some gauge blocks and measure your T-slot in your table. 
8. Mill your key on both sides to this dimension, staying .001 off the bottom of your vice. 
9. Remove set up and install vice.
10. Install new soft jaws and machine them in place.
11. BAM!  Perfection every time you remove and install your vice.

P.S.  match mark the key to the vice so it can be removed and reinstalled.


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## Firestopper

I'm in, I'll give her hell tomorrow and see what 20,40 and 60' do on my tired eyeballs.


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## coolidge

firestopper said:


> I'm in, I'll give her hell tomorrow and see what 20,40 and 60' do on my tired eyeballs.



Regarding your avatar, we need a larger picture of your shop you may be the new king of clean!


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## Firestopper

coolidge said:


> Regarding your avatar, we need a larger picture of your shop you may be the new king of clean!



Dude, Sometimes I feel like a janitor. Most the time I pick up and always sweep at the end of the day and use this time to enjoy quality music drink a cold beverage and ensure nothing is smoldering (fire watch). About the time I finish sweeping, my German "Shedders" come to visit and coats the floor with "love". Hahaha, Its true!


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## mcostello

John Stevenson has posted a mill vise alignment bracket that locates off of the front of the base casting on a Bridgeport, it may be faster, little bit harder to make.


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## Bob Korves

Randy_m said:


> If you remove your vice a lot like I do, do as follows.
> 1. Mount an angle plate on your mill parallel to to x axis.
> 2. Flip your vice over and clamp it on the angle plate.
> 3. Put a jack under the "long" side to support the weight.
> 4. Indicate the vice in the Y axis to .000 +/- .001. Use the jack for this.
> 5. Mill a slot aprox. .050 deep, centered on your "bolt down ears". Cut the slot WIDER than your T-slot. I.E. 3/4 slot for a 5/8 T-slot ect.
> 6.  Now get a piece of 3/4 key stock, screw this down into your new slot. (Drill and tap ect.)
> 7. Use some gauge blocks and measure your T-slot in your table.
> 8. Mill your key on both sides to this dimension, staying .001 off the bottom of your vice.
> 9. Remove set up and install vice.
> 10. Install new soft jaws and machine them in place.
> 11. BAM!  Perfection every time you remove and install your vice.
> 
> P.S.  match mark the key to the vice so it can be removed and reinstalled.


Randy has the right idea.  My probably 50 year old Bridgeport vise came to me with accurate keyways and screw holes machined in both directions into the bottom of the vise.  Most machine vises have them.  The slots just needed to be lightly stoned for any burs.  The mill table slots are also kept bur free by lightly stoning.  I made keys carefully that fit both the vise and table slots with nice snug fits.  Now when I just set the vise on the table and let the keys fall into the t-slots the vise never trams at more than .001" in 6".  Getting is zeroed really close is easy when it it already trapped so closely.  After a few times mounting it, I know I can put it on the table, let the keys fall into the t-slots, bump the vise once in the direction I know aligns it best, lock it down, and it will test within a few tenths over 6", every time.  Trying to tram a vise placed loosely on the table is a major PITA, relatively.  A little effort setting your vise up now saves lots of work down the road...


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## Bob Korves

A bit off subject here, but many people leave their vises on the mill when it would be much smarter to take it off and mount the work to the table or use some other setup.  They build wonky setups that are not rigid and present the work to the cutter poorly, all because they find it a major job to remove, install, and tram the vise.  If you make some aids for easily removing, installing, and tramming your vise you will be much more likely to do it more often.  You also gain a fair amount of additional Z headroom when you mount to the table or fixture plates.  Always using the vise tends to limit your thinking to a few inches of real estate when you have a big table that never gets used or even considered.  I also mount my vise to one side of the table so most of the table remains available for alternative setups with the vise in place but unused.


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## Downwindtracker2

On youtube, one smart fellow used a laser and a mirror on the opposite wall to align his round column mill/drill.


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## kd4gij

Tony Wells said:


> Get a longer shop......shoot it out the door at the neighbor's house.......a nearby (but not too close) tree target.




 Just make sure you don't point it at a cop car or his house.


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## derf

I have a real simple way. Once I have it squared, I just dowel pinned it.


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## pineyfolks

Mines just keyed. Fine for most jobs and if I have to a quick swipe with an indicator gets it spot on. I was waiting for someone to say they clamped a rifle scope in their vise.


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## RJSakowski

pineyfolks said:


> Mines just keyed. Fine for most jobs and if I have to a quick swipe with an indicator gets it spot on. I was waiting for someone to say they clamped a rifle scope in their vise.


Like you, I take advantage of the keys.  However, for those who don't have a key vise  or may have a mill with rough cut Tee slots, the rifle scope will work.  Several decades ago,  I needed to do some landscape leveling and made the level below/.  It is a Western Field 3 - 7 x 20 .22 scope.  It will easily resolve .05" @ 20 ft. which works out to about .001" in 5".  I don't use it because I have an enclosure around the mill and it would be literally a pain in the neck to bend over to sight it.  One issue may be that the scope may not focus on a target only 20' away.  I tried mine it looks like it would be usable.

On trick that I used to make the trial and error adjustment procedure more tolerable was to fix one side of the vise so it acted as a pivot point.  I would then sweep the fixed vise jaw with an indicator and note the correction needed.  I would then mount a toe clamp on the table with a feeler gage equaled to the correction needed.  Then pull out the feeler gage and slide the vise to contact the toe clamp and clamp the vise.  This usually gets you close enough and is far less frustrating than the tap/measure/tap/measure method.

Bob


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## Bill C.

RJSakowski said:


> Like you, I take advantage of the keys.  However, for those who don't have a key vise  or may have a mill with rough cut Tee slots, the rifle scope will work.  Several decades ago,  I needed to do some landscape leveling and made the level below/.  It is a Western Field 3 - 7 x 20 .22 scope.  It will easily resolve .05" @ 20 ft. which works out to about .001" in 5".  I don't use it because I have an enclosure around the mill and it would be literally a pain in the neck to bend over to sight it.  One issue may be that the scope may not focus on a target only 20' away.  I tried mine it looks like it would be usable.
> 
> On trick that I used to make the trial and error adjustment procedure more tolerable was to fix one side of the vise so it acted as a pivot point.  I would then sweep the fixed vise jaw with an indicator and note the correction needed.  I would then mount a toe clamp on the table with a feeler gage equaled to the correction needed.  Then pull out the feeler gage and slide the vise to contact the toe clamp and clamp the vise.  This usually gets you close enough and is far less frustrating than the tap/measure/tap/measure method.
> 
> Bob
> 
> View attachment 112502




Novel idea.


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## Bill C.

A few shops I have worked in used keyed vises.  I always indicated them anyway. 

Like Bob I would snug down one bolt and use a brass knocker or dead blow hammer and indicated the non-keyed vises. After tightening both bolts I would recheck the alignment to see if it moved.  

By-the-way, in most cases I would use double washers (two standard stacked) on top of the vise base if the washers were bent from over tightening by the previous machinist.


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## Sheather

Using a laser is a neat idea; thank you for sharing it!

One option (instead of getting a longer shop) if you want/need more accuracy with the laser method - put a mirror where the current target is. Bouncing the laser back across the room would double the distance, giving you about half the error. 

They do something similar for eye exams, so that the exam rooms can be reasonably sized but maintain the required visual distance to the eye chart.


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## TOOLMASTER

don't most kurts have slots for alignment underneath


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## Hidyn

I feel it must be said that a tree would make a bad target, as a point on the tree will constantly be shifting as it grows, and even big ones shift in the wind.

I know that it wasn't a terribly serious suggestion, but I can't help myself.


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## BGHansen

Tom's Techniques gave me my current method which goes pretty quickly (though probably not 13 seconds unless I'm lucky).  Eyeball the vise close to straight and lightly tighten the T-nut bolts.  Mount a test dial indicator on the spindle, move the X so I'm at the edge of the jaw, adjust Y/the indicator until I've deflected the needle.  Then engage my power feed letting the indicator drag across the jaw face and watch the needle.  Give the vise a tap with a brass hammer until the needle stays on a number.  Tighten the nuts and recheck.  Usually successful in a max of 3 passes back and forth.

Bruce


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## stupoty

Im too retro , i put a square in the vice and use a 123 block and another square of the front of the table 

I used to use the keys on the bottom of the vice but wanted the vice at an angle one day.

Stuart


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## RIMSPOKE

MY VISE IS KEYED TO THE TABLE SLOTS . 
THE LASER SOUNDS LIKE A QUICK & SASSY WAY TO GET IT VERY CLOSE .  

TO ME , THE LASER SOUNDS LIKE THE CAT's MEOW WHEN USING A SWIVEL BASE WITH 
LEFT & RIGHT HAND SETUPS .


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## astroracer

Exactly how my vise is located on the table! Two dowel pins. Squared it up to the table with the indicator in the spindle and drilled and pinned it to the table.  It comes off and goes back on in the exact same location.
Mark


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## Winegrower

An old thread, but dowel pinning the vice to a fixed point on the bed is not attractive to me.   I have mounted alignment bars on the bottom of the vice, too.   It’s ok.   What I like best is similar to what BGHansen describes.   I keep an indicator with a quill clamp by the mill.   It’s not necessary to spend a lot of time tapping and checking...just stick a 123 block or such in the vice and run the indicator along and see what way it moves...you can tell in a fraction of an inch movement in x axis.   Tap the vice (the right direction of course) and keep tapping until the needle stops moving.   You’re done.

When I use the bars, seems like I always want to indicate it anyway.


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## Dabbler

My mentor has precisely ground keyways and never needs to check his vice because it is a tight slip fit.

FWIW I don't follow his example because I don't want to risk dragging the key across the table (My back isn't young any more and my vise is 40+ lbs) so I indicate it in.  With practice, it takes under a minute.  I like the laser idea to get it within a thou or 2... That would get it close enough to save a lot of time, then I can get it to a half thou over 5"... hum...  I see another project brewing!


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## Winegrower

Sorry, the laser idea doesn’t appeal to me...first the reference dot is maybe 20’ away.   Maybe you young guys can see a dot that far away to within a 1/16” or so...but I would have to run back and forth, bump it, go check, tighten, go check, etc.   Also, i’m picturing a simple laser pointer...how it goes in the vice each time could introduce error.   Perhaps with a mirror reflecting back to the mill to a local target it could work...not sure you could rely on the mirror to be perfectly stable over temperature, humidity, earthquakes (CA), etc.   But if you like this, great.


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## Eddyde

I have used the laser trick to realign a drill press table after needing to move it while work was still in the vise. Just mark a vertical line on the wall with a level instead of a dot. Good for round column mills as well.


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## chips&more

There is nothing more accurate than running an indicator along the fixed jaw of the vise. And for me it takes no time at all. And I don’t move my vise around that much, so it does not bother me to pull out the indicator and align the vise when needed…Dave


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## homebrewed

I use a machinist square for quick vise tramming.  The "fat" end goes against the front of the table, the thin end goes against the side of the vise (the vise clamp is removed on that side).  Tap the vise so there is no visible gap between the square and vise.  This gets me to .001"/3" (the width of my vise jaws) or better.  Make sure there's no swarf between the square and table/vise, eh?

Even if I don't need a well-trammed vise (for something like surfacing a part) I do this because there's a good chance my next use WILL, and at least I won't be off TOO much if I forget I didn't dial-in the vise.....


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## Bob Korves

homebrewed said:


> I use a machinist square for quick vise tramming. The "fat" end goes against the front of the table, the thin end goes against the side of the vise (the vise clamp is removed on that side). Tap the vise so there is no visible gap between the square and vise. This gets me to .001"/3" (the width of my vise jaws) or better. Make sure there's no swarf between the square and table/vise, eh?


When squaring things in, it is best to indicate the actual thing doing the work, not a surrogate.  The back of the table and the side of the vise have nothing to do what we want to achieve, and may not be machined correctly themselves.  By indicating the fixed jaw of the vise, we are directly making it parallel with the table motion, which is what we really care about for many mill jobs.  It is almost certain that NO part of the table is actually dead on square or parallel with the table travel.  Maybe very close, but why use intermediates that have inaccuracies and/or can move and wiggle?  Using your square clamped in the vise might be useful for tramming the in and out travel (Y on a vertical mill) by indicating it, but that would also be subject to the squareness and the parallelism of the square and it's mounting.  Any assumption that the parts and axes of any machine or tool are actually square and parallel with each other is just faith and hope.  Test it and see...


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## Cadillac

For me I do as Hansen explained. It is so easy like said 3-4 times across with a indicator your done. My question is what do you use your indicator for if pulling out lasers and squares all to accomplish a indicators job. Then like bob said you should really be indicating the part if you want to cover all the bases. Indicator is the way to go.


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## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

I have fitted pegs to my vise base so it just drops into the slots and should be accurately square when refitted, but I still run an indicator down the inside of the fixed jaw.  It always causes wonder when its a fraction out.  A tap with a brass hammer is all it takes and then a check on the securing bolts.


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## Bob Korves

BaronJ said:


> A tap with a brass hammer is all it takes and then a check on the securing bolts.


Indeed.  I wonder how much of the movement is between table and knee...


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## BaronJ

Hi Bob,

Yes I agree !  But in my case I don't have a knee mill, even so there is a fraction of play in both the table and the head.  But the table will still move a fraction.


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## KBeitz

Bob Korves said:


> A bit off subject here, but many people leave their vises on the mill when it would be much smarter to take it off



My vise stays on almost all the time. It's also keyed. I can't believe everyone doesn't have a vise like this...
it's the only vise I really like and I have a lot of vises.


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## Downwindtracker2

When I bought a bunch  of tooling from guy who had tried to use a round column  mill/drill to make a CNC. A couple of things were a $10 indicator holder for the spindle and a import .0005 test indicator, he said they didn't work and asked it want them as well. Of course I said sure. He had bought one of those two dial indicator things for tramming the head, which he tried to sell me, as well. First time I used the indicator holder on my mill/drill, I found it might have been over priced at $10 new.  It flopped around some, but slip-joint pliers came to the rescue with the thumb screws. Using a dead blow, this time I was lucky, one sweep right  and one sweep left and the vise was on. The alignment gods were with me. I've also used a #96 button back dial indicator mounted in the chuck. Harder to see.


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## bretthl

What an awsome idea.  If the laser dot can be positioned within 1/16 of an inch from the dot on the wall 20 ft. away then you could expect that traming the 6" jaws with an indicator would give:

0.0625/240 = y/6

y = 0.0016"


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## Cadillac

How would you align a vise with a laser? I have used lasers for grading and other construction stuff which the kurf of the laser is ruffly a 1/16 to a 1/8. I can eyeball my vise closer by visually aligning the back jaw with the edge of the table making them parallel. Idk settting up a laser and getting close is just as long as using a indicator and being dead on.


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## jbolt

I didn't dowel my vise to the table but I do have dowel holes drilled into the bottom of the vise at different locations where I most commonly locate the vise on the table. The pins are removable and when inserted locate against the edge of the T-slot in the table. As long as everything is clean when setting up there is no need to indicate.


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## Shootymacshootface

bretthl said:


> What an awsome idea.  If the laser dot can be positioned within 1/16 of an inch from the dot on the wall 20 ft. away then you could expect that traming the 6" jaws with an indicator would give:
> 
> 0.0625/240 = y/6
> 
> y = 0.0016"


Yes ,very creative, but as Bob Korves inadvertently explained, the table would have to be in the exact same position  every time, including tension on the gibbs.


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## Toolmaker51

Doweling ANYthing to 'sacred' surfaces of a machine tool is very, no extremely, uncommon. Cylindrical dowels need clearance to install and remove, introducing undesired error. Tapered pull dowels would be better, but still _über_-unconventional. The other problem with doweling relegates all the gib wear to one zone, far better usage alternates vise placement on what ever schedule you deem fit.

If one cannot dial a vise in 3-4 passes with an indicator, they need more practice, and perhaps a change in technique. Clamp a long straight bar in the vise and view it lengthwise in accordance with the table slots. I do this when the material is not smooth enough for indicating. The laser level method isn't a bad starting point, but a laser pointer won't work. They are not intentionally centered in their body. 

But the following is my everyday go-to, several decades worth.
Start with the indicator midway on fixed jaw, move Y to achieve some indicator + & - travel. Any line should be a convenient zero, just because it's marked '0' is not fully relevant. Any displacement of the needle moving X will be readily apparent of which direction is angled from table travel. One stud can be lightly snugged, tap in the vise body to lessen the needle travel as you move towards end of jaw. By the time you arrive, the jaw reading and starting zero should be very close. I continually get a vise .0001 in 1 1/2 passes.


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## MarkM

Bob I have to disagree with you.  Vises are ground parallel on all sides,  a square in the shop should be up to snuff parallell and at 90 degrees.  If not give it to a carpenter.
Tables and slots are parallel to the axis on machines.  Why do you think they put key slots in Vises?
If so the machine tool is junk!  I have never ever come across a table in a shop out of wack as you state not parallel on there axis!


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## Bob Korves

MarkM said:


> Bob I have to disagree with you.  Vises are ground parallel on all sides,  a square in the shop should be up to snuff parallell and at 90 degrees.  If not give it to a carpenter.
> Tables and slots are parallel to the axis on machines.  Why do you think they put key slots in Vises?
> If so the machine tool is junk!  I have never ever come across a table in a shop out of wack as you state not parallel on there axis!


We will have to disagree then, Mark.  Nothing is machined perfectly, and tolerances can add up.  I always try to measure the important surface directly when possible, and I do not trust anything to be correct as received.  A single appropriate test takes all guessing away, no leaps of faith.  Most work does not require extreme accuracy, and when it doesn't, then shortcuts can be taken, with often large time savings.  If that type of workmanship becomes ingrained and carries over to important work, then there can and will be unacceptable inaccuracies.


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## MarkM

Bob I would never put a vise square or anyhing to be machined that wasn t checked when i received it.  If It s not up to tolerance I don t use it and send it back so if I come to a situation where I may have a strange setup I can trust what I am using. 
Like I said if it s not up to tolerance give it to a carpenter.  I was just stating the fact that a decent vise ground on all sides can be indicated in more than one surface and a table on a mill not parallel shouldn t be in the shop.
I ve checked all my kit as I always have so I can use it. I think your off on a Tangent!


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## Firstgear

RJSakowski said:


> Twenty feet is 240 inches.  If the dot is 1/4" in diameter, .25/240 is about .001"/".  I typically align my vise to be less than .001"/4" which would correspond to .060" @ 20 ft.
> 
> However, for many operations, .001"/" is sufficiently accurate enough and the 13 seconds mounting time is very attractive.
> 
> I wondered about the reproducibility because most laser leveling devices typically quote 1/8" inch accuracy.


Accuracy is not what you are worried about, repeatability is what you want.  The accuracy number is what it can be off from perfect level.  If it is perfectly repeatable then it will be fine.


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## Dabbler

I'm going to try to wade in here but I might get punched by both sides.  

- I know of a toolmaker with 60+ years experience that has his vise set up with 1" long precision ground keyways that just fit the slots on his milling machine.  He has pre-indicated in the precision ground jaws on the vise.  Many hours went into this prep, and he has to force the vise down whenever he reinstalls it - but every time it is within one-tenth, end-to-end.  Defrayed over the past 40 years since he made this setup, he has saved many hundreds of hours.  The downside is that he has several scrape marks, where he accidentally marked the table while removing and installing the vise.

- On the other side, I also know of another machinist with 45+years experience that always indicates in his vise every time.  He has made custom washers for the vise with flats on them that help him to get very close, usually within .001 or .002.  I've watched him indicate the vise in in 10 seconds flat - to one tenth!  No marks on the table, but a little extra time every install.  

Who is right?  well I don't know.  I don't have the time to do all the work for option A, but one day I might.  I have my own version of option B, but it takes me a minute or more to get it close.   

To address the OP question -- I think the laser is fine for getting it to that .002 level.  If that's all you care about, then just use that.  If you always go for more accuracy, you have a good starting point.  Everyone develops their own technique, and lives with the advantages and disadvantages of it.


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## Bob Korves

Dabbler said:


> - I know of a toolmaker with 60+ years experience that has his vise set up with 1" long precision ground keyways that just fit the slots on his milling machine. He has pre-indicated in the precision ground jaws on the vise. Many hours went into this prep, and he has to force the vise down whenever he reinstalls it - but every time it is within one-tenth, end-to-end. Defrayed over the past 40 years since he made this setup, he has saved many hundreds of hours. The downside is that he has several scrape marks, where he accidentally marked the table while removing and installing the vise.


I do exactly the same.  I also use t-nuts that are carefully shop made from mild steel, and with all exposed edges and corners rounded over to smooth large radii.  They do not mark the table if they slide on it, but I do try to keep them clear of the table until over the t-slot.  The t-nuts fit tightly enough to have to wiggle and push down on the vise slightly to get them into the t-slots, and also into the slots on the bottom of the chuck when changing the vise from 90 degree mounting to longitudinal mounting and back again.  I always get within .0001" by simply dropping the vise into the t-slots, and a simple light push in the known direction with the heel of my wrist when tightening it down gives zero movement of the .0001" needle over the 6" jaw travel.  I no longer check the vise each time I put it on the table.  I take my vise off regularly for mounting work on the table, or other tooling, and always mount the vise in a different place each time I remount it, to spread any wear over the entire table.  I am lucky that the mill, a Millrite built in 1967, came to me having never been used before.  It was quite grimy from sitting for decades in storage, but no rust at all, and while cleaning it up, there were no chips or scratches anywhere on the working and sliding surfaces.  I am working hard to keep it that way.


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## markba633csi

Need a photocell on the wall connected to a beeper.  No running back and forth!


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## RobertHaas

A precion ground 24" bar clamped in my vice sure shows what a tenth out looks like.  A brass hammer and some patience goes a long way for me. 

FYI my machinist square gets me pretty close (+_.001) and for most of the work I do that is fine, however I can and do get 10 times closer when necessary.


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