# what should I pay for this Enco mill?



## ARC-170 (Oct 25, 2018)

Saw this ad on CL. It's a drive for me (I live in northern LA county). I talked to the seller and he wants $1,250. Says it cam off a ship (The Star of India). Says he can give me some tooling (collets and vise were discussed). Any advice on price or what I should look for appreciated.
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/tls/d/milling-machine-enco-36x9/6727334262.html


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## JimDawson (Oct 25, 2018)

Given that most of the tooling has nothing to do with the mill tells me that he picked this up at auction or looking at the background in the pictures maybe picked it up for scrap.  He has no clue what he has there.

I would start at maybe $200.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 25, 2018)

_


JimDawson said:



			Given that most of the tooling has nothing to do with the mill tells me that he picked this up at auction or looking at the background in the pictures maybe picked it up for scrap.  He has no clue what he has there.

I would start at maybe $200.
		
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_
_I just edited the post. I just got off the phone with him. He told me he has three of these and has used it. He said he moved it from one facility to another. It's pictured in the back of a truck._

_I'd love to low-ball him, especially since it's a long drive and doesn't come with ANY tooling. He did say he had a vise and collets but made it sound like those were extra._


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## TomS (Oct 26, 2018)

I bought my Enco mill drill new for $1100 delivered to my door although it's a smaller version of the one pictured and it was a few years back.  $2500 is way too much for that machine with no tooling.  I agree with Jim, give the seller a low ball offer and see where it goes.  Without seeing it and able to judge it's condition my gut is telling me this mill is worth no more than $500 to $600.


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## dlane (Oct 26, 2018)

Round column, I would hold out for a better mill , $200 For that one


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## ARC-170 (Oct 26, 2018)

What about this one. They want $1,800. Seems high based on seeing one on this site for $800. I'm just trying to get an idea of what these mills cost. Prices are all over the place!:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Enco-Mill-...0:g:JEcAAOSwb4VbrpfF:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true


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## ARC-170 (Oct 26, 2018)

[_QUOTE="TomS, post: 618562, member: 24891"]I bought my Enco mill drill new for $1100 delivered to my door although it's a smaller version of the one pictured and it was a few years back.  $2500 is way too much for that machine with no tooling.  I agree with Jim, give the seller a low ball offer and see where it goes.  Without seeing it and able to judge it's condition my gut is telling me this mill is worth no more than $500 to $600.[/QUOTE]_

Thanks for the advice. Where did you buy yours?


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## yendor (Oct 26, 2018)

$1800. is a lot for that machine. Even with the limited amount of tooling that it has.
No Vise on a hold down kit and who knows the condition of the end mills.
Sight unseeen they are scrap.

I wouldn't go more then the $600 - 800 from the 1st machine you saw.


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## ttabbal (Oct 26, 2018)

Not much for machines in my area and I paid 2500 for a Bridgeport with some collets, phase converter, vise, and clamping kit. But it depends on the area and time. For a round column bare I wouldn't have done half that. 

Of course, there's been a Southbend lathe in the classifieds locally for 3000 for a year. They don't even post real pictures and won't come down. Some sellers think these things are solid gold.


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## ericc (Oct 26, 2018)

I would not low ball the person.  The way the ad is written, it sounds like a tar kicker and a time waster.  Unfortunately, this kind of person is very common.  Try not to let it waste your time.  Have patience.


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## TerryH (Oct 26, 2018)

I paid $500 for my  Taiwan made Enco 105-1110 with a decent amount of tooling. Pic is as it was when I bought it...


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## C-Bag (Oct 26, 2018)

Its odd in SoCal right now in that there are several mill/drills right now on CL and all of them are way over priced. Not even a month ago the median price for RF30's around $1000. Several were under in the $600-$800. But then they all went away and now everything is in the $1800 range....go figgur. Personally I would have liked the one I saw for $600, but it was an Enco Rf30 made in Tiawan. The one in the pic is not a 30. It's either a 20 or 25. Quite a bit lighter and less ridged than the 30.


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## TomS (Oct 27, 2018)

ARC-170 said:


> [_QUOTE="TomS, post: 618562, member: 24891"]I bought my Enco mill drill new for $1100 delivered to my door although it's a smaller version of the one pictured and it was a few years back.  $2500 is way too much for that machine with no tooling.  I agree with Jim, give the seller a low ball offer and see where it goes.  Without seeing it and able to judge it's condition my gut is telling me this mill is worth no more than $500 to $600._



Thanks for the advice. Where did you buy yours?[/QUOTE]

Bought it from Enco before it became MSC.


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## 682bear (Oct 27, 2018)

I paid $1500 for this Enco a couple of years ago... it came with a 6 inch Enco mill vise, a 12 inch rotary table, and a fair amount of tooling...

I would keep looking, the machines you are looking at are overpriced.

-Bear


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## ARC-170 (Oct 27, 2018)

So based on what TerryH paid, seems to me the mill I'm looking at should be less than $400, maybe even in the $200 range. However, it seems the going price is around $1,000.

I can get a brand new Grizzly for $750 to $2,000, depending on size. I'm fine with smaller, but would not mind bigger, especially since I keep reading that I'll always want a bigger one! So I'm looking for a used one to keep the cost down.
The round column seems to only be an issue if I need to raise or lower the head while doing an operation, correct?

I need a bench one, I just don't have the room or the need for a bigger one. I'm also looking for a lathe. I thought I might get a lathe/mill combo, like the Smithy.


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## Chipper5783 (Oct 27, 2018)

You have spoken mostly about the price.  You have also talked a bit about the capabilities.  You are thinking it would be nice to have a bigger mill.

Bigger is not always better, however in the home / hobby market, the ones that most people refer to as "big" machines would be considered "small" in the majority of commercial / industrial environments.

I encourage you to focus on what it is you want the milling machine for and look at what your constraints are (such as room, power, transport and any hard stop on price).  Of course the cost of the machine matters, but I suggest you put that criteria well down the list.  Strictly speaking on a machine that you will have for many years, that will be the cause of you spending a whole lot of additional dollars on setting it up and tooling it - the initial cost of the machine (even a full price new one) is still one of the lesser costs.  It is much cheaper to spend the extra money in the beginning to get a machine that will do what you need & want than to struggle away with a lesser machine, get frustrated, go and purchase another machine etc.

You will come out ahead if you spend extra on the basic machine, than if you go cheap on the machine and don't get features that are difficult to do without.

What size?  Your work envelop gets eaten up very quickly.  That is one of the big drawbacks of the lathe/mill combos - the effective work space is very small.  Regardless of the machine, by the time you mount a vise, then add a collet chuck (or drill chuck), then you put a tool in that chuck - you just lost about 6" of your head room.  I have two mills - the smaller one has a work envelop of 12" x 8" x 12" (X-Y-Z), it is an extremely versatile, unusual little toolroom mill - I really like it, but since I got a regular knee mill with 10 x 48 table (28" x 10" x 17" - with additional "Y" on top of the knee to augment the 10" of travel), I hardly use the smaller one.

The knee mill that "Bear" posted a picture of above is a very nice, useful size, small milling machine.  It is a great size for general mucking around, this and that sort of work.  That is a "small" mill and super handy.  It is easy to power (probably 3 HP), it is not real heavy (perhaps #2500), easy to move with rollers, jack, floor jack and it has a very respectable work envelop.

If you know that the stuff you are working on is all pretty small then a bench mill might really work for you - obviously only you can answer that.  I encourage  you to focus on the capabilities and not focus too much on the price.  Pretty quick the price is forgotten.  If you end up with something that doesn't work for you, then you will always be reminded that you wasted your money (regardless of how cheap it was).

Let us know how you make out.  David


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## C-Bag (Oct 27, 2018)

I totally agree. I went in knowing my work envelope was on the smaller end so I concentrated on "bench" size equipment. I've really become a fan of listing why I want a particular machine. And the kind spec's I expect to need to hold. You will find all kinds of people hating the mill drills but for me having seen the plus and minus I realized a 9x20 lathe and a RF30 would do my work envelope. And could hold the tolerances I needed and the parts were available with a ton of fans that had mod's to help fix their short comings. But that's just me.

 I looked at the 2in1 lathe/mills and quickly realized it wasn't going to work for me. The sad thing is there are more people in my area that are looking for the same or close to what I wanted now. So the  prices have really shot up as the prices of new machines has doubled and tripled. But when I was looking several years ago I was able to get a well tooled 9x20 for $600 and well used Enco Tiawanese RF30 for $400. But things have gotten out of hand here with tariffs. I have no idea if it's just a quick wave that will go back down or the new norm. It took me quite a while to find my deals. Patience pays off for me anyway.


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## TerryH (Oct 27, 2018)

For whatever it's worth, I would buy a new one from Harbor Freight before giving anywhere near the same price for a used one. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-horsepower-heavy-duty-milling-drilling-machine-33686.html


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## C-Bag (Oct 27, 2018)

TerryH said:


> For whatever it's worth, I would buy a new one from Harbor Freight before giving anywhere near the same price for a used one.
> 
> https://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-horsepower-heavy-duty-milling-drilling-machine-33686.html



I agree. Yeah, it can be a bit of a crap shoot either way, new or used. But the fact the used one isn't even a 30 really makes me not to pay that much.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 28, 2018)

_


Chipper5783 said:



			You have spoken mostly about the price.  You have also talked a bit about the capabilities.  You are thinking it would be nice to have a bigger mill.

Bigger is not always better, however in the home / hobby market, the ones that most people refer to as "big" machines would be considered "small" in the majority of commercial / industrial environments.

I encourage you to focus on what it is you want the milling machine for and look at what your constraints are (such as room, power, transport and any hard stop on price).  Of course the cost of the machine matters, but I suggest you put that criteria well down the list.  Strictly speaking on a machine that you will have for many years, that will be the cause of you spending a whole lot of additional dollars on setting it up and tooling it - the initial cost of the machine (even a full price new one) is still one of the lesser costs.  It is much cheaper to spend the extra money in the beginning to get a machine that will do what you need & want than to struggle away with a lesser machine, get frustrated, go and purchase another machine etc.

You will come out ahead if you spend extra on the basic machine, than if you go cheap on the machine and don't get features that are difficult to do without.

What size?  Your work envelop gets eaten up very quickly.  That is one of the big drawbacks of the lathe/mill combos - the effective work space is very small.  Regardless of the machine, by the time you mount a vise, then add a collet chuck (or drill chuck), then you put a tool in that chuck - you just lost about 6" of your head room.  I have two mills - the smaller one has a work envelop of 12" x 8" x 12" (X-Y-Z), it is an extremely versatile, unusual little toolroom mill - I really like it, but since I got a regular knee mill with 10 x 48 table (28" x 10" x 17" - with additional "Y" on top of the knee to augment the 10" of travel), I hardly use the smaller one.

The knee mill that "Bear" posted a picture of above is a very nice, useful size, small milling machine.  It is a great size for general mucking around, this and that sort of work.  That is a "small" mill and super handy.  It is easy to power (probably 3 HP), it is not real heavy (perhaps #2500), easy to move with rollers, jack, floor jack and it has a very respectable work envelop.

If you know that the stuff you are working on is all pretty small then a bench mill might really work for you - obviously only you can answer that.  I encourage  you to focus on the capabilities and not focus too much on the price.  Pretty quick the price is forgotten.  If you end up with something that doesn't work for you, then you will always be reminded that you wasted your money (regardless of how cheap it was).

Let us know how you make out.  David
		
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Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate the in-depth comments.

At this point, I'm looking to see what's out there and what it costs, both what it's LISTED for and also asking around to see what it SHOULD cost. Prices are all over and everyone seems to be asking gold-plated prices for tin machines, but I could be wrong, that's why I'm asking. I just want to know the prices I'm seeing are fair. If used is close to new, may as well buy new. I was hoping to save some money buying a used machine. This is also a hobby so I really can't justify to the CEO (aka "Wife") paying crazy money for anything. However, I teach at a high school (Engineering, including using tools) that has a shop, so I have access to bigger mills and lathes, but I'd like something at home I can use to create lessons and projects for the students. They need smaller (safer) items to build so a small machine is fine. I suppose I could justify the purchase based on it being work-related, but it's still our money!

I just cannot get anything other than bench top size. I don't have the room and I need to be able to move it around. I was going to place it on a rolling tool chest or shop-made wood table with wheels. I thought I would try to get the biggest machine I could mount safely.

The HF mill noted above by TerryH is on the heavy side (750lbs). The reviews are good. It costs about $900 with a 25% off coupon, but lead time is 5-17 weeks. My concern is that it is too heavy to mount safely. Hmmm... I think I just figured out what my machine size is!

The G0781 is about $1200, weighs 167#
The G0758 is about $1400, weighs 204# is a little bigger than the G0781.

These are close to the used prices I'm seeing. I try not to pay more than about half to 2/3 of new when I buy used since there is no warranty, I can't return it and only have a rough idea of what I'm getting. I realize that many machines come with all the tooling and that saves me money so I take that into consideration when I look at a machine. If it's $1200 and comes with everything I'll need, than I'd consider it. I've learned that from asking questions and reading this forum, so thanks! 

I hope that helps clarify my thinking on this. I'm also looking for a lathe (I discuss that in another post) so I was hoping to get both with all the tooling for around $2,000 or less. Looks like I may need to revise that based on what I'm reading, or just be patient and see if the right deal comes along. Please keep the thoughts and comments coming, I really appreciate it!


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## C-Bag (Oct 28, 2018)

I'm glad you are considering the logistics of the mill besides the space it takes up. A good strong table and a way to transport and lift it. My favorite way to lift around my shop is my HF folding engine hoist. At 750lbs it can do some damage to itself or anything it falls on. I know that's light compared to "real" mills but it will still put you in the hospital if it falls.


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## Chipper5783 (Oct 28, 2018)

ARC, it sounds like your space is a pretty hard constraint - that's simply reality.  Absolutely, put everything you can on wheels.  I was seriously space constrained for many years.  We finally added on a nice sized work shop.  My main machines are set on the floor, but everything I can I get wheels under it, or sits on purpose built blocks.  I also have a pallet jack which is super handy - the equipment that is on blocks is very easy to move.  The point being that if you have a good arrangement to move things, then you can work with more items in that space.

There is nothing wrong with paying "gold plated" prices, so long as you get a machine that is likewise really super nice.  Everyone dreams of getting the gold plated machine for super cheap.  Yes, it does happen, but it is sort of like winning a lottery - it happens, but don't count on it.  I picked up several "screaming good, you suck" deals - however, none of them looked like it at the time (they started out looking horrible).  The first machine I got, I paid the "gold plated price" for a used (just slightly used, but not brand new) very nice lathe.

In retrospect, paying the money and getting into a good machine off the bat, turned out very well.  I went through all the same agony (actually it was a lot of fun) of ordering catalogs, getting machining books, talking to machinists, looking at machines etc for about 3 years.  I kept saving up money - and finally went ahead and spent the cash.  For the lathe, the power, the transport and the first round of basic tooling it was about $16,000 - and that was in 1983.  Your situation is different, you are much more knowledgeable about machining and you have access to machines - I had neither of those when I started.

I do not agree that since this is a hobby, the machine has to be cheap.  All in I have about $30,000 into 10 machines (depending on what you define as a real machine) - I know plenty of folks who have more than that in a boat, RV, sleds, truck, . . .  hobbies which cost more and are used less than the hobby I am into.  Spending $5000 for a decent little machine gets a person going (sounds like you know machines - $5K is still cheap, and all the machines you have mentioned are bottom end - even brand new there is nothing gold plated about them at all).  If you start with a decent machine, it will always be useful - even when / if you get more machines.  That first lathe that I bought back in 1983 is still a very useful part of my kit (I now have lots more iron, but that first lathe is my go to machine).

I suggest you pass on the mentioned CL machine and look for a more competent machine (while saving some funds, get your transport lined up, think about your work space and power), and be ready to move fast.


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## ezduzit (Oct 29, 2018)

ARC-170 said:


> ...The G0781 is about $1200, weighs 167#
> The G0758 is about $1400, weighs 204# is a little bigger than the G0781.
> ...



These are flimsy toys.

Don't let portability cloud good judgement.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 30, 2018)

Update: the seller wants $850. Based on paying $2750 new for it about 7 years ago. Seller says he's a master machinist (60 years). Comes with a collet set and a few bits. He says he's used it and it cuts like a bigger mill (.020" cuts instead of .001" like the other similar machines).
Thoughts?


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## Chipper5783 (Oct 30, 2018)

The seller's comments make  no sense.  "Cuts like a bigger machine"! That does not mean anything. It can take a 0.020" cut.  In what material at what feed rate? At $850 it is cheap enough that if you end up with something that does not work for you, then your loss is pretty small (you could  sell it on for something?).


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## C-Bag (Oct 30, 2018)

Well, sorry I ain't buyin' it. 6-7 yrs ago the Enco RF30(the bigger/heavier/better IMHO) was $1800 which I thought was outrageous. Just my 2c.


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## TomS (Oct 30, 2018)

ARC-170 said:


> Update: the seller wants $850. Based on paying $2750 new for it about 7 years ago. Seller says he's a master machinist (60 years). Comes with a collet set and a few bits. He says he's used it and it cuts like a bigger mill (.020" cuts instead of .001" like the other similar machines).
> Thoughts?



For comparison I can take a 1/4" depth of cut with a 4 flute 3/4" end mill on my RF-30.  If .020" is all it can do then walk away.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 30, 2018)

I'm not sure how much of what he was telling me was BS. I just asked questions and posted what he told me. I got the impression this was on a tool room on a ship. He's selling it because it's an extra one.

I mentioned the HF machine was similar and about $900 with a coupon. He said this machine is way better.

He told me if I can "move it by hand" I can have it for free. I'm wondering if there's a way I could actually move it by hand. It's in the back of a pickup truck. I could back my pickup truck up to it and figure out some way of getting it from one to the other. It was 800 lbs!


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## craptain (Oct 31, 2018)

ARC-170 said:


> He told me if I can "move it by hand" I can have it for free. I'm wondering if there's a way I could actually move it by hand. It's in the back of a pickup truck. I could back my pickup truck up to it and figure out some way of getting it from one to the other. It was 800 lbs!



Finally looking at a potentially worthwhile deal. Where there's a will there's a way. 

I think you mentioned it was on "Star of India". That's a museum ship in San Diego. The conditions may not have been ideal, in terms of environment. But the people who would have used it are likely quite competent. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## ARC-170 (Oct 31, 2018)

I was under the impression that these machines are all made in the same factory, just with different paint and QC levels. Am I totally wrong?

I think he was kidding when he said I could have it if I could move it. I mentioned bringing a hoist, but he told me I needed to use my hands. Whatever. I can't really think of a way to move 800 lbs with nothing but my bare hands. I would need some sort of lever. I thought of putting small pipe under the mill and rolling it from his truck into mine (provided he doesn't put it on the ground). I figure I could rock it to give me some room to stick a pipe under it. I get one under it, the rest will go under, then I could roll it. Not sure this would be considered "bare hands" though.

Is $850 a fair price? Based on a new one being $1800, it's not bad, but based on the previous comments in this thread that seems high. He was originally asking $1250. I asked him again and he told me $950, but he would take $850. He mentioned "they" were asking that price, so he may just be an employee. I countered with $600, got rejected. I may just need to walk away; I got time, and this is a long drive anyway. I think I'd pay about $400 based on the HF one being $900 with a 25% coupon and not wanting to pay more than half of new for anything used, especially on CL. It's not really a deal if I have to pay more. That said, let me know if I'm wrong.


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## craptain (Oct 31, 2018)

The original decent quality Rong Fu was made in Taiwan, and they produced the same machine with many labels. Enco being one of the main ones. Mine is labeled Meda, and was imported by a New York company. It's plenty accurate enough for me and I paid 600 for it along with a few colletts and a crappy vise. Later production moved to mainland China, where the early ones were reputed to be still OK. But the quality soon became very varied. Depending on the label. Harbor Freight is a mixed bag as they contract on price. I don't believe that any are made in Taiwan any more. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## C-Bag (Oct 31, 2018)

CL is funny. You get all kinds on both ends of any deal. The trend lately has been in our neck of the woods to much higher than a couple of months ago. I knew the if you can move it by hand was some kind of bluster. With me he'd rue that statement as I'd do a variation as to what you said and take my handy dandy 6' aluminum ramp and several pieces of shaft and tilt the mill and put the shafts under the mill and put my ramp between the beds of the trucks. That smaller mill with no stand is not 800lbs. It's not super light either and the whole thing is not without danger. Personally I'd not let anybody on my property trying to do something so dangerous for fear they got hurt. I'll stop with the armchair quarterbacking and leave it as my teenage daughter would say, "whatever dude".


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## ARC-170 (Nov 11, 2018)

UPDATE:

Mill is still available. He still wants $850. I offered $750, but he wouldn't go lower. It comes with no stand and no tooling. It's a long drive for me to just go and hope I can talk him down. I'm in no hurry, but I have some time now and thought I might make the drive. Thoughts?


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## mickri (Nov 12, 2018)

The Star of India is an old wooden square rigger.  It's docked in San Diego bay.   That boat is routinely washed down with saltwater and there is always saltwater in the bilges sloshing around.  That is a saltwater marine environment where everything corrodes over time.  You can't prevent it.  Unless it was maintained in excellent condition there is going to be corrosion somewhere.  I would want to know how long it was on board.  Be prepared to have to replace all of the bearings in the quill.  The bearings in the motor may also need replacement.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 12, 2018)

mickri said:


> The Star of India is an old wooden square rigger.  It's docked in San Diego bay.   That boat is routinely washed down with saltwater and there is always saltwater in the bilges sloshing around.  That is a saltwater marine environment where everything corrodes over time.  You can't prevent it.  Unless it was maintained in excellent condition there is going to be corrosion somewhere.  I would want to know how long it was on board.  Be prepared to have to replace all of the bearings in the quill.  The bearings in the motor may also need replacement.



I was thinking the same thing about the salt air exposure, but the seller seems set on his price. How much are quill bearings and motor bearings? Are they easy to replace? I don't think this one is a contender anymore, but I would like to know how much it would cost to replace bearings.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 12, 2018)

Found another one. Seller is asking $750. Thoughts?:

_Selling a Morgon mill/drill machine. Identical to a Rong-Fu RF31 or Jet mill/drill, so parts are easy and cheap to find. Made in Taiwan, so slightly better quality than many modern import machines. R8 spindle, 8x32 table, 12 speed belt drive and 2HP motor. 

Comes with a rotating milling vise and a ton of endmills.

_


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## mickri (Nov 12, 2018)

This one is in the ball park and worth going to take a look at it.  It might not last very long with a rotary table and some tooling.


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## T Bredehoft (Nov 12, 2018)

Rotating milling vice, Vice mounted on a fixed plate with numbers stamped on the base. 

ARC-170  Have you gotten it yet?


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## ARC-170 (Nov 13, 2018)

_This one is in the ball park and worth going to take a look at it. It might not last very long with a rotary table and some tooling. 

Rotating milling vice, Vice mounted on a fixed plate with numbers stamped on the base. 
ARC-170 Have you gotten it yet?_

Working on it! He's not available today. Stay tuned.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Nov 13, 2018)

This is the pricing rate I use, cherry 50%, run of the mill used 35%, project 10%. of new.  At 10%, I've plowed 25% into parts. Of course if I could get away with paying project for cherry I would, but that hasn't happened yet.  Since I've retired, that's 12 machines, 3 at auctions , 5 off CL , 2 private and 2 consignment, I'm not holding my breath on that. Basically it's 1/3 new.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 14, 2018)

Here's another one. Thoughts?


_Its in good shape. Some chipping of the paint from transporting it. It has a power Z feed, but it currently does not have a belt hooked up to it to make it run. It has a DRO setup, that is hooked up to the Y axis. Includes Cabinet. $950 _

The vise is $250 extra. If I buy the vise and mill, the seller will throw in a clamping kit.


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## ezduzit (Nov 14, 2018)

The vise doesn't look like $250.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 14, 2018)

_


Downwindtracker2 said:



			This is the pricing rate I use, cherry 50%, run of the mill used 35%, project 10%. of new.  At 10%, I've plowed 25% into parts. Of course if I could get away with paying project for cherry I would, but that hasn't happened yet.  Since I've retired, that's 12 machines, 3 at auctions , 5 off CL , 2 private and 2 consignment, I'm not holding my breath on that. Basically it's 1/3 new.
		
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I do something similar. I figure it's CL; nothing is worth more than half of what I can get it for new, especially without any warranty or returns. I use the same rule when listing. I look up what a new one costs and list it for a little more or less than half price, depending on condition. I also look to see what else is selling in my area.
I think it all depends on how bad the seller wants to sell, too.
For this mill drill, a comparable new Jet is $2,000 + tax and delivery. That's about $2,200 since I think I can get this thru Home Depot and get free delivery. A comparable new Grizzly is about $1800 delivered.
There are people listing these for $1200 and up! Some don't want/need to sell, others think they have something special.
I would also point out that people looking on CL are not willing or able to pay new prices; if they were they'd buy new! CL is for buying and selling deals, not an alternate retail marketplace.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 14, 2018)

ezduzit said:


> The vise doesn't look like $250.



The seller states it's a rebuilt Kurt.


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## C-Bag (Nov 14, 2018)

THIS is worth $950. It's a real RF30, the others were not. And it has the totally rare Z down feed. 

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/d/encomill-drill-machine/6747715508.html


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## mickri (Nov 14, 2018)

Decision time.  ARC-170 only you can decide.  Go with what you think is best for you.  I personally don't think that a power z is worth much on these light duty machines.  A DRO and power feed on the x & y are definitely a plus as is the kurt vise.  $250 for a kurt vise, not a clone, is in the ball park.

Another one to go look at.


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## craptain (Nov 14, 2018)

ARC-170 said:


> The seller states it's a rebuilt Kurt.


Doesn't look very rebuilt to me. At most it has aftermarket jaws. My 4" Kurt cost me $100 in excellent condition. 4" is ideal for that size mill. I have a couple of 6" that haven't been used in over a year. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Eddyde (Nov 14, 2018)

Go for it!


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## C-Bag (Nov 14, 2018)

mickri said:


> Go with what you think is best for you.  I personally don't think that a power z is worth much on these light duty machines.  A DRO and power feed on the x & y are definitely a plus as is the kurt vise.  $250 for a kurt vise, not a clone, is in the ball park.
> 
> .


The Z downfeed is the one thing you can't add on easy. RF30's with this rarely come up. It's the one thing I wish mine had because I use my boring head a lot and it would be great to just push a button and not think about the finish by hand. It doesn't have the X feed, but it does have the DRO and stand. Just my 2c.


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## ezduzit (Nov 14, 2018)

ARC-170 said:


> ...nothing is worth more than half of what I can get it for new...



"Rules" like this are absurd and have no value whatsoever, other than to prevent one from actually using his head to identify a real deal. For example, if you are shopping for a clean, used milling machine, and someone has just what you're looking for, in like new condition, for 60% of new cost, your "rule" would make you pass on an excellent deal.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 15, 2018)

_


ezduzit said:



			"Rules" like this are absurd and have no value whatsoever, other than to prevent one from actually using his head to identify a real deal. For example, if you are shopping for a clean, used milling machine, and someone has just what you're looking for, in like new condition, for 60% of new cost, your "rule" would make you pass on an excellent deal.
		
Click to expand...

_
I can always break the rule!  It's less of a "rule" and more of a guide. There's a few sellers trying to sell lean, used mills for $1400 and up. They are priced way too high based on what I've seen sell over the past few weeks. Anything priced below $900 gets sold quickly. Theirs have been sitting for at least 5 weeks. That tells me that my guide is about right, since a new mill is about $1800-$2000. I think sellers on CL pad their prices, expecting people to offer less. We all want to think we are getting a good deal, so I assume they are padding it and offer less. I have nothing to lose; they can counter and I can accept or reject. I suppose it would be different if I lived outside a major metro area.
You raise an interesting point, though; at what percentage of "new" do we decide is too much? Your example of 60% is really close to my 50%, so I might be willing to pay it. Those listings for $1400 are 70% of $2000; that's too close to new prices to justify buying from a stranger on CL with no returns or warranty. It's really a judgement call, I suppose. To me, and excellent deal is 50% or less of new.


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## C-Bag (Nov 15, 2018)

The problem is the "new" price has changed, sometimes a lot on the older mills. There is a ton of details to take in. My experience with CL is the ones who are asking too much are not the original owners and they have scanned new prices where ever and always quote them. Trying to point out their price is out of line has never made anybody budge significantly. The only thing that's worked for me is to show up, face to face and go from there. Pic's always look way better than the machine looks like in the flesh so when they look ragged online they are going to look even worse live. I also try to not get too attached to the deal beforehand. That way I can be calm about dickering.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 15, 2018)

Does anyone know where I can find the cover for the belts? One of the mills I'm looking at is missing it. It's probably not critical that I have it, but I'd like to know if one is even available. The seller seems to have lost it. A quick Google search didn't turn up anything. Maybe I'm not using the right term? However, I did find the Grizzly version, but I'm not sure if it's EXACTLY the same.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Nov 15, 2018)

I've tossed out a low ball offer and have had it accepted. I call those throw away offers or bids.  That was the 25% in parts machine, chuckle. It's better machine than new now. In that case the fellow had picked it up at an auction for peanuts obviously.


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## yendor (Nov 15, 2018)

That cover is removable via the PIN type hinges.

Many of us just leave it off as it gets in the way every time you want to chnage belts for the spindle speed.


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## C-Bag (Nov 15, 2018)

yendor said:


> That cover is removable via the PIN type hinges.
> 
> Many of us just leave it off as it gets in the way every time you want to chnage belts for the spindle speed.



and rattle and buzz like crazy if left open.


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## mickri (Nov 15, 2018)

I leave my cover off.  Like above it's a pain to remove to change the belts and rattles.  Your hands are no where near when using the mill.  You can claim its a safety issue to a seller offer a lower price.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 17, 2018)

UPDATE:
I went and saw the mills in posts #36 and #41.

Post #41 (Enco): I've decided, after seeing one in person, that an RF-31 is just too big. I took a look at it and thought, "I'm not really ever going to need that much table." The whole machine is also bigger than I thought it would be. The column is 4 5/8" in diameter, which confirmed for me that it was the bigger one. The Z-axis downfeed was underwhelming to me. The large bolts that are tightened to keep the head from rotating are not original, so the heads are a bit smaller and require you to wedge a screwdriver in there to keep them from rotating as you turn the bolt. The rotating vise is actually a compound slide off a lathe. Otherwise it was a nice machine. The seller was asking $925, I offered $800 and he didn't counter except to say he was firm, didn't really need to sell it and had a few others coming to look. He posted it awhile ago for $1,100 and got no takers, so he lowered the price and his getting more bites. 

Post #36: what a mess! The seller has this at a friend's house. The seller took the motor, switch cover and switch lever off. He had them all on a plastic box, but his buddy lost the nuts for the motor bolts, the nuts for the bolts that are tightened to keep the head from rotating, and the top belt cover. The garage it was in was a total mess, so we had a hard time finding everything. He told me he took one of the lead-screws off. Not sure why he did this, but everything worked when I tested it. The machine was filthy; it was covered with a thick grime. The seller was using steel wool to get it off. The motor runs fine (it was wired, just not mounted on the machine), the main spindle bearing appears to be ok, but the middle pully bearing runs a little rough. This whole machine badly needs lubing. The handles on the tables looked melted. The rest of the handles were missing or had a bolt only. The spindle lock handle and downfeed handles were gone. These didn't appear to be similar to what I've usually seen on these mills so I'm wondering if it's "aftermarket" or a replacement. The downfeed axle was chewed up bad, so attaching another downfeed handle assembly will be an issue. A y-axis lock bolt on the side of the table was missing.

The label reads "Samson", so I'm not sure what this is equivalent to. The machine is painted green. The column was 4" in diameter which leads me to believe this is a smaller machine. It was on the ground, though, so maybe my perspective was off. It seemed much smaller than the bigger one. I think I may take another look at the next size down.

I told him I'd think about it. He was asking $750. I'm thinking of offering way less, given the condition. I'm thinking I could maybe get a new/used downfeed mechanism and spindle lock. I'd have to take the machine apart and clean and lube it. The top cover I could leave off. How hard is it to disassemble these machines? Are used parts even available? Or, I'll keep looking.

Thoughts?


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## mickri (Nov 17, 2018)

Unless he is willing to sell it for next to nothing as a project and you are ok with fixing it before you can use it I would pass.  I am thinking between $100 to $150 at most.


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## hotrats (Nov 17, 2018)

Myself? Being a newbie at this, if in your position - with having free access to larger machines at work, and being really limited on space at home - I'd be spending a lot more time at work, after hours. But, that's just me.


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## ezduzit (Nov 17, 2018)

ARC-170 said:


> ARC-170 said:
> 
> 
> > ...nothing is worth more than half of what I can get it for new...
> ...



I think your 50% rule has you bottom feeding in the extreme. Recommend you ditch that rule and find a clean, used machine at a fair price.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 17, 2018)

_Myself? Being a newbie at this, if in your position - with having free access to larger machines at work, and being really limited on space at home - I'd be spending a lot more time at work, after hours. But, that's just me. _

I spend enough time there. I'm also off in the summer and have no desire to drive 60 miles round trip. I'd have to take my kids with me, too. I'd like something I can use at home so I can create projects for my students and also use it for myself.

-------------------

_I think your 50% rule has you bottom feeding in the extreme. Recommend you ditch that rule and find a clean, used machine at a fair price. _

Like I said, it's not really a rule so much as a guide. I've seen decent machines sell in the $600-800 range. I've also decided that a bigger machine is not for me, so I may take another look at smaller (and cheaper) machines. I got time, I can keep looking. I keep learning more and more, so when one does come up, I'll know its a fair deal and I can jump on it.

Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it! It makes me think.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 17, 2018)

_


mickri said:



			Unless he is willing to sell it for next to nothing as a project and you are ok with fixing it before you can use it I would pass.  I am thinking between $100 to $150 at most.
		
Click to expand...

_
I was going to offer him more than that, but I just looked up prices for the parts that are likely to need replacing and I'm up to $450 delivered. I used the Grizzly G1006 mill parts list. It's not exact, but might work for most of the parts. I don't mind a project, but parts need to be available, and I need to get the mill for the right price.


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## jsh (Nov 18, 2018)

Well I must also be some what unrealistic. I have been looking for a benchtop mill for a while. Most of them in this neck of the woods are in pretty poor shape. This past week I put a bid in on a central machine mill. It had been sitting unused for about 20 years, it came with very little tooling, a wooden stand that was not of great use. I knew the gent selling it, he had used it less than a few hours total, year of mfg was 1985. 
I checked what I could get a brand new equal shipped for, half price +10% was my bid. I lost it for $10. I need/want a machine to finish some projects, not another project. 

It may have been a deal, but I figured setting that long a complete tear down was due. Bearing grease may or may not have been fine. 

So myself, I have decided to just go NEW and be done with it. Because as we all know so well, about the time I hit the go button on this purchase benchtop mills will fall from the sky for pennys on the dollar with large amounts of tooling thrown in. 
Because this is exactly what happened on my lathe. I looked for several years before finding a used lathe I was happy with. The next three months I was turned on to close to a dozen 8x36" class lathes.


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## mickri (Nov 19, 2018)

Here is a mini mill/drill.  https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tls/d/3990-hitorque-mini-mill/6752212022.html


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## ezduzit (Nov 19, 2018)

mickri said:


> Here is a mini mill/drill.  https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tls/d/3990-hitorque-mini-mill/6752212022.html



That's pretty much a toy at 139 lbs.


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## mickri (Nov 19, 2018)

ARC-170 has two threads running on mill/drills  His last comments were that he was going to look at smaller mill/drills because he thought that an RF31 was larger than what he wanted after looking at one.   This might be too small.  Or it might not be.  That's a decision that he will have to make.  We are all just throwing out suggestions.


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## ezduzit (Nov 19, 2018)

M--please don't take my criticism of the "toy" machine personally. We are all trying to help the OP find a decent machine and avoid the inadequate.


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## mickri (Nov 19, 2018)

I didn't take your comment as personal.  I agree that a mini mill/drill is pretty light weight.  I wouldn't buy one.  But the OP is looking at smaller mill/drills for home use.  How small I don't know.  He has larger full size mills at work that he can use.  I was just making a suggestion was all.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 20, 2018)

I realized 2 threads was a bad idea too late! My original idea was to have one for each machine, but I quickly realized that would be too much, so I just kept the original two.
I bought the LMS machine after deciding that the RF-25/30 clones were just too big. So far, I haven't needed to make anything very big or make really big cuts (0.025" into mild steel or aluminum is the max so far). I have bigger machines available at work for anything bigger.

I'll post about it separately so we can just talk about that particular machine now, instead of looking all over SoCal! Thanks for all your help and support everyone, I really appreciate it.


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## ARC-170 (Nov 20, 2018)

mickri said:


> Here is a mini mill/drill.  https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tls/d/3990-hitorque-mini-mill/6752212022.html



I saw this one after I decided to go smaller. I checked it out and it was a good deal, so I got it. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## mickri (Nov 20, 2018)

Glad I was able to help.  I hadn't found this site when I was looking for my stuff and was mostly flying blind and in the dark.  It would have been nice to have had some guidance.

Now the fun really begins.  I have been making mostly tooling for my lathe and mill/drill.  I have found that making tooling is a great way to learn about machining.  And making a mistake ruining something isn't a financial disaster.  Making a QCTP was very instructive on the capabilities of my machines.  I am now making an ER32 lathe chuck.  Won't get back to that until after the holidays. 

Have fun with your lathe and mini-mill/drill


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## ARC-170 (Nov 20, 2018)

_


jsh said:



			Well I must also be some what unrealistic. I have been looking for a benchtop mill for a while. Most of them in this neck of the woods are in pretty poor shape. This past week I put a bid in on a central machine mill. It had been sitting unused for about 20 years, it came with very little tooling, a wooden stand that was not of great use. I knew the gent selling it, he had used it less than a few hours total, year of mfg was 1985.
I checked what I could get a brand new equal shipped for, half price +10% was my bid. I lost it for $10. I need/want a machine to finish some projects, not another project.

It may have been a deal, but I figured setting that long a complete tear down was due. Bearing grease may or may not have been fine.

So myself, I have decided to just go NEW and be done with it. Because as we all know so well, about the time I hit the go button on this purchase benchtop mills will fall from the sky for pennys on the dollar with large amounts of tooling thrown in.
Because this is exactly what happened on my lathe. I looked for several years before finding a used lathe I was happy with. The next three months I was turned on to close to a dozen 8x36" class lathes.
		
Click to expand...

_
It doesn't help if you live far away from a major metro area that also has a large manufacturing presence. If you only lost by $10, you were being realistic, IMHO. I was going to buy a beat-up machine, but when I looked at what it would cost it parts to get it in decent shape, I decided to look elsewhere. It was going to be at least $400 for parts on a machine the seller wanted $750 for. I was going to offer less, but I'm not sure he would have taken it. It was too heavy for the "standard" stands and tables, so I'd also have to get a stand made. For about $500 to get one welded, and maybe $150 to make a decent one out of wood myself. I could have bought a new on for that kind of money. So, I went smaller and got a LMS 3990.


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