# Can You Use A Dead Center



## ddickey (Sep 11, 2016)

in the tailstock if you're turning aluminum?


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## mzayd3 (Sep 11, 2016)

That's how they used to do it. They'd put a dab of grease on a dead center before live centers were common.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bill Gruby (Sep 11, 2016)

If that's what you have, of course you can use it. We used to lubricate it with white lead. White lead is a grease, don't know if you can get it now. White moly will suffice.

 "Billy G"


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## Tozguy (Sep 11, 2016)

Anti-seize maybe? That stuff is awesome.


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## kd4gij (Sep 11, 2016)

Tozguy said:


> Anti-seize maybe? That stuff is awesome.




 And abrasive.


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## Tozguy (Sep 11, 2016)

Ooops, would never have thought. What size is the grit?


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## mikey (Sep 11, 2016)

A while back, I heard antisieze was abrasive too so I looked into it. Antisieze is typically made from two components, a grease and a solid lubricant. The idea is that the grease prevents sticking below 400 degrees but if temps rise above that then the solid components, typically copper or aluminum, step in to prevent sticking/galling. The compounds with copper and aluminum "may be" abrasive; I couldn't find an article to support this claim. To get around the possibility they make antisieze without metallic or carbon (graphite) solid components that are non-abrasive when broken down.

The bottom line is that not all antisieze has abrasion potential but to my knowledge it also does not have load bearing capacity (the grease melts out at 400 degrees) to be used as a lube for a dead center. 

So, good thought Toz, but no go.


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## Tony Wells (Sep 11, 2016)

I have used Never Seize brand nickel based high temp for dead center lube, and have had no problems. However, on aluminum, I'd think there would be problems with just about anything except a pure, EP grease. Even then, low speed and careful attention to speed and the heat generated would be critical, since aluminum has a high CoE.


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## talvare (Sep 11, 2016)

Loctite LB8012 works pretty well. It doesn't have any metals in it. Like Tony says, keep the speeds low.

Ted


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## mikey (Sep 11, 2016)

I tried STP from a decades-old can on a dead center while turning aluminum once. It worked but I had to stop and adjust the tailstock twice. My answer is a live center.


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## ddickey (Sep 12, 2016)

I used it and it worked okay. I notice some heat build up in the aluminum.
I will be shopping for a live center.
Are there any suggestions for a quality one?


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## talvare (Sep 12, 2016)

ddickey said:


> Are there any suggestions for a quality one?



Yes, Royal or Skoda.

Ted


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## Bill Gruby (Sep 12, 2016)

I  second the choice of the Royal Live Center.

 "Billy G"


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## mikey (Sep 12, 2016)

Third for Royal.


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## Tony Wells (Sep 12, 2016)

Another vote for Royal. I have more than one. Skoda is good, one you may not find readily but is good is Roofe. One key thing that lets you know quickly is whether they are rebuild-able, or have a way to get fresh grease in there. Lots of the cheapies are assembled and sealed. No access (easy anyway) for clean and lube. But it all depends on what you expect and need out of the center. If your needs are seldom, and light....then nothing wrong with saving a few bucks on an import. But if you need the best, then get ready to shell out some bucks. Like chucks, the good ones aren't cheap.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Sep 12, 2016)

ddickey said:


> I used it and it worked okay. I notice some heat build up in the aluminum.
> I will be shopping for a live center.
> Are there any suggestions for a quality one?


Royal, you will not like the price however. When you buy one get one with an extended point as it will give much more tool clearance when turning small parts. They also get quite hot but this is expected.

I have a cheap import that I use for crude work but the bearings do not last long and it is often to large for smaller parts but works well otherwise.
http://www.royalproducts.com/product.cfm?catid=8


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## gi_984 (Sep 13, 2016)

I use the Never Seize (made by Bostik if I remember right) as well.  Great stuff for a lot of things.  Not just for threads.
Second on the Royal brand live centers.  That is what I use also.  But I wouldn't turn my nose up at a Skoda or Bison either.  
For lubing dead centers etc this is what you use:  http://www.cmdlubeoil.com/extreme_pressure_lubricants.html

This is what we used at the Tech school in the machining program.  A tube will last most HSMs a decade.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 13, 2016)

when i use a dead center i use Mc Master Carr's EP lube in the yellow and black tube.
i have had the same tube for >10 years


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## gi_984 (Sep 14, 2016)

Yep,  McMaster Carr is a distributor for CMD.  Most folks only need a 4 oz tube.  If you call CMD up and only need a small quantity, they will give you the stock number for it in the McMaster Carr catalogue.


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## Tozguy (Sep 15, 2016)

When using a dead centre in the tailstock it is difficult to imagine any grease that will last for the duration of the job. How do we know it is time to reapply some grease and how should it be reapplied? 
On one job, I tried some Rotella 15w40 diezel engine oil, giving the centre a few drops at the beginning of every pass.
It seemed to work OK because the work didn't heat up more than usual and the centre didn't gall.
I have a live centre but want to learn to use a dead centre as best we can.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 15, 2016)

i make a habit of applying center lube each time i am going to use the center- whether i'm first setting up or reinstalling after measurement
make sure you don't over tighten the center- it will create a lot of heat and can ruin the work or center or both .
oil will lube but it may be squeezed out of the center-work interface.
ep grease has shear resistance that oil cannot match- making the ep a better choice, if available.
a dead center can produce very accurate work , but there are concessions to working with them


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## gi_984 (Sep 24, 2016)

Yes, fresh grease to the centers every time.  I keep my reservoir full on the tailstock.  Then I use the dauber to apply.  I also spin the chuck by hand while I tighten up the tailstock then lock the tailstock quill.  I still want to be able to turn the workpiece freely without too much drag.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Sep 25, 2016)

I simply do not understand this, aside from grinding at very low rotational speeds, why would anyone consider using a dead center in a tailstock in the year 2016.

Please explain


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## 12bolts (Sep 25, 2016)

I guess its why people continue to forge steel in old world blacksmith traditions, or use traditional methods for building mudbrick homes.
Or perhaps even persevere with quaint old manual lathes when CNC is available..........

Cheers Phil


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## mikey (Sep 25, 2016)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> I simply do not understand this, aside from grinding at very low rotational speeds, why would anyone consider using a dead center in a tailstock in the year 2016.
> 
> Please explain


 
In truth, I don't think very many of us do.


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## george wilson (Sep 27, 2016)

The fact is,a dead center is the only type center that is TRULY dead nuts accurate. Watch lathes still use them. And,not just because they are compact. All ball bearing centers have some degree of runout,no matter how small,it is present. When the highest degree of accuracy is needed,a dead center will give it.

For light loaded work,when you want extreme concentricity,a dead center with the point ACCURATELY ground SQUARE (and,I DO MEAN ACCURATELY!) ,mounted in the spindle hole,will have enough bite to enable you to turn light work with it. This was sometimes used in days long past. But,it is still a dodge well worth knowing about. Being from a museum,I have spent a lot of time learning about old techniques. They can still be applied to a modern lathe if needed.

Of course we all use ball bearing centers 99.9% of the time because they are easier to use and require no lubricating when in use. I have Royals myself. My favorite is a little Royal that has a small spindle that runs inside the #2 Morse taper body. It is very handy when turning extra small items,which I frequently make. The little Royal has no bulky body housing its bearings. The bearings are INSIDE the #2 MT shank!  I use it on my Hardinge HLVH,which has a #2 M.T. tailstock. It was not cheap!!


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## Randall Marx (Sep 27, 2016)

George, what do you mean "ground square"? I'm curious about this as I have wanted to be able to turn some small stuff without a chuck or dog in the way.


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## george wilson (Sep 28, 2016)

You would need a tool and cutter grinder,or at least be quite good at freehand grinding. 

I mean that 4 facets can be ground onto the 60 degree portion of the dead center. This leaves 4 corners that have enough bite to  turn small items of brass,aluminum,wood,ivory,etc. which do not take much power.

If you do it freehand,you must leave just a thin sliver of the original surfaces showing. These can be stoned sharp with an India slip stone. The center of the dead center must not be eradicated. A tiny bit of its original surface must also be left.


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## Randall Marx (Sep 28, 2016)

Sounds interesting, but I'm having trouble picturing a setup to actually make the grinds come out correctly.


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## John Hasler (Sep 28, 2016)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> I simply do not understand this, aside from grinding at very low rotational speeds, why would anyone consider using a dead center in a tailstock in the year 2016.
> 
> Please explain


I use them because they are cheap and work well enough as long as I'm careful.


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## george wilson (Sep 28, 2016)

Just imagine that the business end of a 60º center,which is normally round,looks like a pyramid with 90º corners on it. This is not complicated. Don't over think. The corners will bite enough into softer materials to allow light turning . This was used much more often back in the old days,when chucks were non existent,or too expensive to be affordable. Ivory turners could make chess pieces with a center like I have described. Brass candlesticks could also be made. The simple system would be very fast to change pieces of work in. Faster than using a chuck of any kind at all. So,in old factories,it would have been a good thing to use.

MANY years ago I bought the very LAST can of white lead that the paint store had in stock. It was being outlawed in the early 70's. I tried to be careful to not get it on my fingers,but probably did any way. Once you put a little dab of white lead on the end of a piece of work,it had a way of getting around on the work quite a bit!

I still have that can of Dutch Boy white lead,though it's probably dried out. Or,may have gotten tossed in one of my wife's clean out campaigns.


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## JimDawson (Sep 28, 2016)

george wilson said:


> I still have that can of Dutch Boy white lead,though it's probably dried out.



I still have an almost a full 1/2 pint can.  I mixed a little oil in it to keep it soft.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 28, 2016)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> I simply do not understand this, aside from grinding at very low rotational speeds, why would anyone consider using a dead center in a tailstock in the year 2016.
> Please explain



i was taught with a dead center and old habits die hard- i reckon. 
(i do own and use live centers on occasion)
maybe it's the same reason i hand scrape still, even though i have a biax


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## george wilson (Sep 28, 2016)

My white lead,being made for mixing in paint and probably making putty(?),had linseed oil in it,which invariably will dry over time. And,it's been over 45 years by now!


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## 4GSR (Sep 28, 2016)

george wilson said:


> My white lead,being made for mixing in paint and probably making putty(?),had linseed oil in it,which invariably will dry over time. And,it's been over 45 years by now!


George, your showing your age.

I have a very small Dutch Boy can of white lead dad had in his stuff.  The last time I poped the lid off the can to use, took a 16D nail mixed it up, good as new!  I don't think that stuff will ever dry out with the amount of lead in it!


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## kwoodhands (Sep 28, 2016)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> I simply do not understand this, aside from grinding at very low rotational speeds, why would anyone consider using a dead center in a tailstock in the year 2016.
> 
> Please explain


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## kwoodhands (Sep 29, 2016)

Sometimes a live center is too large in diameter  and only a long nose live center or a dead center will do.
I have an expensive live center that I use sparingly because it is too large. I bought a long nose live center that I use instead. The dead center gets very little use now.When I do use a dead center I use grease from a auto grease gun tube.
Lasts about 30 minutes or so before adding more grease.


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## george wilson (Sep 29, 2016)

kwoodhands: my little Royal #2 MT is actually smaller than a plain dead center. The spindle runs on roller bearings inside the regular #2 MT shank. A smaller dia. CNC nose protrudes from the MT shank. It really is a wonderful little live center for close,small work.


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## Randall Marx (Sep 29, 2016)

Thank you for the explanation, George. Guess I need to get one or two plain carbon steel centers and try some grinding.


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## george wilson (Sep 29, 2016)

You can get HSS dead centers,OR,the ultimate: CARBIDE tipped dead centers. Of course,re grinding carbide takes diamond wheels. But,you don't have to worry as much about keeping them lubricated.

A dead center is like having an old lathe that has plain spindle bearings: They need attention and frequent lubing. Most Myfords have plain spindle bearings,and they were not necessarily made so long ago. 

You need to look out for your metal getting warmer and warmer,and growing in length till the dead center welds itself to your work!!!! Back off that tailstock quill and keep track of adjusting the center and lubing it.

Yes,they are old fashioned,but they do have instances where they have value,and even superiority.


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## TakeDeadAim (Sep 29, 2016)

Try a live center from Global Tooling Solutions,  They are on the web, call Karl if you have questions.  They sell via a number of distributors as well.  Decent stuff, I have one of their live center kits.  Handy and wont break the bank


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## ericc (Sep 29, 2016)

They, like most other vendors, stop at MT1 for their smallest live centers.  My poor little Craftsman 109 has the chopped MT0 tailstock.  It is fairly easy to cut a new dead center, but making a live center is on the list of projects.


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