# Any Ideas About This Lathe?



## PaPa_Jack

I am going to look at this lathe tomorrow. The fella selling it is liquidating his FIL's estate. He knows nothing about lathes so he and I have a lot in common. All he knows is that it say Precision Lathe Model A on it. 

Any info would really be appreciated.


----------



## woodtickgreg

It's a south bend 9" model A with under drive cabinet. I see a face plate, 3 jaw chuck, and collet rack . This is a very desirable lathe for hobbyist and home work shops. A very good quality lathe. See if there is other tooling that comes with it in the drawers, like collets, cutters, etc. I don't know what he is asking but I definitely would try and score this lathe if you are looking for a good quality starter lathe. This is also a lathe that you will not have a problem re selling if you ever upgrade.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

I am not sure but the son in law said there was some tooling in the one drawer and a couple books also.

He is asking $700. for it.  Do you have any idea how much it might weigh. I would guess I am going to need a 

engine hoist to get it on my trailer. How easy is it to take the lathe off the base and handle them separately?


----------



## Charles Spencer

For $700 it's a decent deal if there are no glaring problems.  Bring an extra $100 or so for the drill press next to it.

With stand it's probably about 500 pounds.

The tooling is OK but nothing drool worthy.

I have a South Bend 9A but not the under drive so I don't know how easy it is to take apart.  I don't think it would be too difficult.

I took the tailstock and saddle assembly off of the bench top version and moved it by myself in the back of my Ford Explorer.  All I used was a plank, a chain hoist, a moving dolly and a handy bit of scafolding.

I'd buy it.


----------



## brino

Hey PaPa_Jack,

This is likely a catalog number on one of the plates, and a serial number stamped into the bed ways at the tailstock end, front.
With the catalog number I could probably look thru old catalogs and find the exact model to give some specs. including weight.
The serial number can be looked up here:
http://southbendlathe.com/older-machines/serial-numbers
(for basic info)
and here:
http://www.wswells.com/serial_number.html
to give an idea of age.

$700 is a pretty good price, depending on condition.
If you get more pictures or the info above then please post back.

-brino


----------



## PaPa_Jack

brino said:


> Hey PaPa_Jack,
> 
> This is likely a catalog number on one of the plates, and a serial number stamped into the bed ways at the tailstock end, front.
> With the catalog number I could probably look thru old catalogs and find the exact model to give some specs. including weight.
> The serial number can be looked up here:
> http://southbendlathe.com/older-machines/serial-numbers
> (for basic info)
> and here:
> http://www.wswells.com/serial_number.html
> to give an idea of age.
> 
> $700 is a pretty good price, depending on condition.
> If you get more pictures or the info above then please post back.
> 
> -brino


He gave me a number CZ344ZD but I can't find any reference to it.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

My son gave me a hand picking up my new toy today. Peter, the fella selling it, went nut when my son grabbed the tailstock end and lifted it up. He told Peter to slide the dollie under the end. He then went around to the headstock end and lifted it up. Oh to be young and stupid again. Of course he is sitting in the recliner now and I don't think he could get up if he wanted to.

I have a small tilt bed trailer so we laid plywood down the trailer and just pushed the lathe up onto it. The cheap HF dollies worked perfectly.

The catalog number for this lathe is CL344ZD
the Serial Number is 39922NKR9

When I initially talked to Peter I asked if there was any tooling with it. He said everything with it was in the original photos.  I has a 3 jaw chuck, two heavy face plates, 15 collets, a draw bar but I didn't see the other parts for using collets. Has a SB steady rest. Several drill chucks. A couple live centers and two dead centers. A couple end mills and a few drill bits.

There were a couple old books in the one drawer. One is a CE3455 Parts Manual. Printed by LeBlond. The gentleman that owned the lathe had made a lot of notes in the pages. Apparently he ws trying to find a new drive belt for it. During his research he must have been told that the lathe was built in the late 60'a or early 70's.

For now it is sitting in my workshop. I am very tired. I'm getting too old for this nonsense. Tomorrow is anohter day though.

Here are a couple pics.


----------



## DoogieB

From the serial number, your lathe was made in the mid-fifties.

You did well on tooling.  The telescopic steady rest is something you will need and they are a little pricey to buy.  Faceplate, tailstock wrench, probably the other jaws for the chuck and looks like a bunch of 3C collets.


----------



## chips&more

For $700 you did good!


----------



## PaPa_Jack

Thanks. He had six people offer him more money before I got there. He refused to sell because he had made an agreement. Don't find people like that every day.  One fella was there picking up a Jet 4x6 horizontal bandsaw. He offered me an Atlas that he has just finished restoring plus $150. I explained to him that I have always wanted a SB lathe and it was going home with me. They had had an estate auction 3 weeks ago and no one bid on the lathe a brand new Jet bandsaw or a small compressor. I have never heard of that happening. He posted it on CL and I saw it and called him 15 minutes after he posted it. Tonight I played the lottery. 
It runs in both directions quietly. The SIL that was telling it told me that the old gent had been complaining about it making a lot more noise than usual as little as three weeks ago. I found he had the belt on crooked adn it was chewing up the edge of the belt badly.
The only things I can't find are the key for the 3 jaw chuck and the parts that go with the draw bar.

I'll check it out better tomorrow. If my back will let me. That little thing is heavy to move around.


----------



## Charles Spencer

Ya did good.  That lathe looks like it's in pretty good shape, as far as I can see.

I've had Atlas lathes and they were not bad.  But I prefer the my South Bend 9C and 9A. 

Grizzly sells chuck keys for a reasonable price.

Now that you have an SB 9A you can probably make the parts that you need for your draw bar.

Seriously, you seem to have gotten a good deal.

PS If you want to give yourself a cheap thrill, use a little Brasso on that plate.  I'll bet that if you do, you'll look at it and think "Nice...".


----------



## brino

Congratulations! I think you got a great machine there and for a really great price.

Thanks for all the pictures.
I will try to find the original catalog for that lathe.

With the string wrapped around that centre it looks like someone was using it as a plumb-bob!
Neat idea for using one tool in a totally different way.

-brino


----------



## PaPa_Jack

I got the lathe into a position in my workshop where I can begin playing, I mean working, on it. Took a lot of pictures. All he travels were quite stiff. I don't think it has been lubed in a while. So I put a little Husqvarna bar oil, it's all I have right now, on the ways and crosslide and compound. that really helped. the ways looked real good except this small area right where you would expect it.




You can see the little ridge at the top of the way. It's about 8 inches long. I really think the gibs are adjusted too tight. But then again, I'm a rookie so I'm really not sure.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

Most of the way surfaces look just like this. No other signs of wear.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

Wouldn't you know it, I run the danged thing for 5 minutes and it purrs like a kitten. Try to drill one 1/8 inch hole and the belt jumps off and breaks. In all honesty, the clips looked like they were put in badly to begin with.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

Now I need to know how to replace this belt with a serpentine belt. I have replace thousands of conveyor belts as a maintenance tech for a major warehouse for the last 25 years, but don't have the splicer and clips available.
Time for a search.


----------



## woodtickgreg

You can just stitch it together with kevlar thread/string, or do what I did and I just used steel twisted multi strand picture hanging wire. I drilled the holes, tinned the end of the wire to help get it through the holes, and then soldered the tag ends together, it works great!

The wire purchased from the big box store


Tinned the wire end with solder to keep the strands together as I pushed it through the holes.


Notice that I stayed in from the end for strength to prevent it from tearing out. And that the wire sits in the grooves, runs silent that way.


A bead of solder keeps it all together.


----------



## brino

Hi Jack,

I was able to find that catalog number in the 1952 Southbend General Line Catalog.
Note that does NOT give a definitive year of manufacture, as they may have sold it for a number of years.

The only problem is that I cannot currently upload pdf files......but I have contacted one of the moderators to have a look.
Stay tuned.....

-brino


----------



## brino

okay, I was able to upload the Southbend 1952 catalog here:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/southbend-1952-full-catalog-5205.3076/

Catalog number CL344ZD is on page  39 (or 41 of 92 in the PDF).

-brino


----------



## PaPa_Jack

I am slowly cleaning up the lathe and sorting through the few items that were included with it. My research into the lathe indicated that the spindle and the tailstock had MT2 bores. That really doesn't seem to be the case. I hve two different sized dead centers that work in each.




The larger one fits the spindle exactly. The other is a standaed MT2 and fits the tailstock. Are they the same thing?


----------



## PaPa_Jack

I am trying to sort through some of the items that were included with the lathe. I read that the spindle and the tailstock were MT2. that doesn't seem to be the case. 




The larger one fits the spindle exactly. the smaller on is a standard MT2 that fits the tailstock. Are they the same?


----------



## PaPa_Jack




----------



## Billh50

The item in the upper right corner almost looks like the collet piece that might fit into the spindle. Can't tell without seeing the face of it though.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

Billh50 said:


> The item in the upper right corner almost looks like the collet piece that might fit into the spindle. Can't tell without seeing the face of it though.



You are correct. That is the 3c collet adapter. The spindle bore itself has a taper to it. The large dead center is a perfect fit. Somewhere I read in SB literature that both the spindle and the tailstock accepted MT2 fittings as well. My understanding is that MT2 tapers are all exactly the same size. The larger of the dead canters fits the spindle but, obviously, it is much larger.  If I can identify the larger taper, I may find other tooling with that same taper . It would expand the tooling that I would be able to utilize.

I am new to all of this and get a little confused by the terminology sometimes.

In the picture, you see a plumb bob that has string wrapped around it. I took the string off and it is a perfect fit in the spindle bore. It fits tight enough that I had to use the draw bar to tap it out.


----------



## brino

hmmmm......yep even the catalog page I pointed you to above says the headstock and tailstock are both MT2.

So either, 
-Southbend started making them different over the years, or
-a previous owner changed the spindle, perhaps to get a bigger thru-hole.

The headstock may be an MT-3.
Do you have another Morse-taper arbor in a drill press that you know the size and can try it in the lathe?
A drill press may have a MT arbor even if you don't realize it. 

See:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/griz-g7946-drill-press-runout.34761/#post-294094

-brino


----------



## PaPa_Jack

brino said:


> hmmmm......yep even the catalog page I pointed you to above says the headstock and tailstock are both MT2.
> 
> So either,
> -Southbend started making them different over the years, or
> -a previous owner changed the spindle, perhaps to get a bigger thru-hole.
> 
> The headstock may be an MT-3.
> Do you have another Morse-taper arbor in a drill press that you know the size and can try it in the lathe?
> A drill press may have a MT arbor even if you don't realize it.
> 
> See:
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/griz-g7946-drill-press-runout.34761/#post-294094
> 
> -brino



I do have a Delta drill press with an MT2 taper. The chuck from the drill press fits perfectly in the tailstock but is drastically smaller than the spindle taper.  In fact, the first "project" I did on the lathe was to drill a centered hole for my sons blacksmithing hobby. It worked like a charm. 

During my initial examination of the lathe I noticed that the spindle bore was tapered on the chuck end. the outboard end of the spindle measures 3/4 inch. I was curious so I tried a few of the tapered tools in the chuck end and the only one that fit was the "plumb bob" part.


----------



## Billh50

I would either try to find the threaded collar that fits the spindle or make one if you plan on using the collets. The collar makes it easier to remove the adapter when not in use. Making a drawbar is not that hard.


----------



## francist

The catalogue shows 3/4" through hole on the spindle for that machine. Seems a bit large to have a 2MT in it, doesn't it? I mean, my little Atlas has a 2MT headstock taper with through bore of 1/2".
Standard equipment for the other 9" lathes on the previous pages list 2MT centres for headstock and tailstock, but also a "spindle sleeve". So is the taper in the spindle indeed 3MT but the two centres provided are both 2MT to be used with the sleeve in the headstock? The catalogue says that the "regular equipment" provided is the same as for the bench model machines.

-frank


----------



## RandyWilson

At least on the bigger lathes, since that's what I have been researching, the spindle is a proprietary  SB taper and the lathe ships with a removable sleeve to step it down to a MT.

 No I didn't get one with my lathe, either.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

Here is an MT2 dead center sitting in the bore of my spindle. It is way too small to be used there.




This is the tapered "plumb bob" that fits perfectly.




I guess, what I am asking is, is the spindle bore an MT3?


----------



## RandyWilson

Page 65 (aka 67 of 92) in the catalog.


----------



## DoogieB

Yes, the spindle bore is 3mt.

On these lathes, the main reason you use a 2mt dead center with a sleeve is for using a lathe dog.  The 3mt dead center usually sticks out too far so you have trouble grabbing the work.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

RandyWilson said:


> Page 65 (aka 67 of 92) in the catalog.


And if you look at the headstock specs on page 39, of the same catalog, it says that the spindle is a MT2 but it is not. MT2 has a large diameter of .7000. The bore of my spindle, inside the 1 1/2-8" end, is about .905. An MT3 taper is supposed to be .9380 at the large end.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

DoogieB said:


> Yes, the spindle bore is 3mt.
> 
> On these lathes, the main reason you use a 2mt dead center with a sleeve is for using a lathe dog.  The 3mt dead center usually sticks out too far so you have trouble grabbing the work.



Thank you. That makes sense. I do not understand why all the SB literature I can find states that the headstock has a MT2 bore.


----------



## RandyWilson

As my previous post said, the lathes shipped with a sleeve to adapt the proprietary SB taper, down to MT2.  This was done so that your through-hole wasn't limited to the minor bore of MT2. The SB taper is close, but not quite the same, as MT3. This is why an MT3 protrudes too far. Google will find a lot of info on this, mostly on un-named other sources.

If the spindle was supposed to start at MT2, why would they list the sleeve?


----------



## PaPa_Jack

Thanks to all for the input. After this discussion and checking the chart at http://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php , as well as measuring the tapers on the tooling I have. The bore of this lathe is an mt3 taper. That  opens other possibilities for tooling. It is such a pain to be a newbie at this.


----------



## Charles Spencer

I've got three SB 9 lathes and they all have an MT3 in the head stock and an MT2 in the tail stock.  If it isn't really an MT3 it's close enough so that I never noticed the difference.

I've found it handy to have an MT3 to MT2 adapter sleeve.


----------



## brino

Hi Jack,

My ~1937 Southbend 9" (catalog number 409R) does have a MT3 in the headstock.
I have used collets, and adapters in it with no issues.

I was hoping you had a male MT3 to check yours with.

I have not heard of a Southbend proprietary "close to MT3, but not quite" taper before.

-brino


----------



## PaPa_Jack

brino said:


> Hi Jack,
> 
> My ~1937 Southbend 9" (catalog number 409R) does have a MT3 in the headstock.
> I have used collets, and adapters in it with no issues.
> 
> I was hoping you had a male MT3 to check yours with.
> 
> I have not heard of a Southbend proprietary "close to MT3, but not quite" taper before.
> 
> -brino



I do have an old mt3 drill chuck. I don't remember where it came from, but I still have it. It sits in the spindle beautifully. And solidly. I have to knock it out with the drawbar. The spindle has the same taper rate as a mt3, but I think it's about 1/4 inch short of being the "official" length of an mt3 taper device. That may be why SB had an adapter to hold mt2 shanks. IT still doesn't explain, to me at least, why SB listed the spindle as mt2 when in reality it needs an adapter.


----------



## RandyWilson

The 14.5 and 16 are listed as MT3, because they came with that spindle sleeve. The through hole is much larger. By the South Bend data, none of the spindles are exactly Morse Taper specs, ranging from *almost* to not-even. The 9" is by far the closest, though. The 10" has a shorter taper run with a larger minor diameter. By the time you get to the large spindle 14.5 and 16's, the spindles are closest to Jarno13, even if people insist on hammering a MT4.5 in them (different diameter, different slope). So, yeah, as long as the minor end of the tool doesn't matter, you can use a MT3 in the 9".


----------



## PaPa_Jack

What does mt3 mean then. Does it have to match exact specs? According to Littlemachinshop, an mt3 is supposed to be 3.19 inches long. If it is only 2.75 is it still an mt3? Of course that would throw off the .9380 major diameter. I think what I am asking is are the MT numbers accepted standards in all regards?


----------



## John Hasler

PaPa_Jack said:


> What does mt3 mean then. Does it have to match exact specs? According to Littlemachinshop, an mt3 is supposed to be 3.19 inches long. If it is only 2.75 is it still an mt3? Of course that would throw off the .9380 major diameter. I think what I am asking is are the MT numbers accepted standards in all regards?


The angle is of critical importance.  The other dimensions can be approximate.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

OK, I admit I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but somebody is going to have to explain this to me.

Every bit of info I can find on a 9A says it is a 12 speed lathe. I can only figure out 6 speeds in forward and 6 in reverse, but that is not what the literature shows. How do I get 12 speeds out of this thing?


----------



## brino

Hi Jack,

I suspect that maybe you have not found how to engage the backgear mechanism.

Some more pictures of your lathe drive system would help.
How many steps do you have in the head-stock pulleys?
How is it being driven? (ie. how many pulley steps in your drive train?)

From the manual I posted in post #19 of this thread:






(Sorry about the image sizes something wrong and it will not let me post full-size images!!!!)
(The second one is a "thumbnail view" that you should be able to click on to open bigger!)

It lists 6 direct speeds and 6 "back-gear" speeds.

Typically, backgear uses a shaft behind the headstock main shaft (thus the term "backgear"). When engaged it adds two more spur-gear speed reductions into the drive.
Typically need to do two things to enable it:

dis-engage a small lock on the headstock pulleys that lock them to the headstock shaft

move a lever that drives a cam that bring the gears on the back-gear shaft into mate with the headstock gears

I will try to locate some info for your specific lathe and post back with some pictures.

-brino


----------



## PaPa_Jack

brino said:


> Hi Jack,
> 
> Some more pictures of your lathe drive system would help.
> How many steps do you have in the head-stock pulleys?
> How is it being driven? (ie. how many pulley steps in your drive train?)
> 
> I suspect that maybe you have not found the back-gear mechanism?!?!?
> 
> From the manual I posted in post #19 of this thread:
> View attachment 135299
> 
> 
> View attachment 135299
> 
> 
> (Sorry about the image sizes something wrong and it will not let me post full-size images!!!!)
> (The second one is a "thumbnail view" that you should be able to click on to open bigger!)
> 
> It lists 6 direct speeds and 6 "back-gear" speeds.
> 
> Typically, it uses a shaft the site behind the headstock main shaft (thus the term "backgear").
> You need to do two things to enable it:
> 
> dis-engage a small lock on the headstock pulley that locks it to the headstock shaft
> 
> move a lever that drives a cam that bring the gears on the back-gear shaft into mate with the headstock gears
> 
> I will try to locate some info for your specific lathe and post back with some pictures.
> 
> -brino


It has a 3 step pulley. That gives 3 speeds plus 3 more with the back gear. That is only 6. Where are the other 6?


----------



## DoogieB

You have 3 speeds off the flat belt pulley.

With back gears, you have a low range for each of the flat belt pulley settings so 6 speeds.

Off the motor there is a two-setting pulley (HI-LO), so 2x the speeds mentioned above for a total of 12 speeds, although in the later years South Bend only recommend using back gears in the lowest flat belt setting while using High speed.

If you didn't get one with the lathe, it might be a good time to pickup a copy of "How to Run a Lathe" by South Bend.  PDF scans are available on the internet and hard copies are cheap to find as they printed a LOT.  I have the last version, the 56th edition, which was printed in 1968 onward and was the version that was available for my lathe.  Also checkout the videos on Youtube from mrpete222.  He has many, many shop videos online and goes over this basic stuff quite well.


----------



## brino

Ahhh.....okay...you have found back-gear....that helps.

I have never seen one of these in person, but is there a way to shift belts on pulleys in the cabinet?

-brino


----------



## brino

...and for the Southbend "How to run a Lathe" book, there are several copies on this site:

Third edition: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/sb-how-to-run-a-lathe-3rd-ed-pdf.2890/
15th edition: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/sb-how-to-run-a-lathe-15th-ed-pdf.2891/
27th edition: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/sb-how-to-run-a-lathe-1966-27th-edition-56-pdf.2909/

-brino


----------



## PaPa_Jack

There is a two step pulley on the motor, but the smaller of the two "V"s doesn't line up with the single pulley of the driven pulley. I would think it would wear badly, but I may be mistaken.

I do have a copy of the book you mention.


----------



## DoogieB

Post a clear picture of both pulleys.  Perhaps someone changed the OEM pulleys.


----------



## PaPa_Jack




----------



## PaPa_Jack

The motor is a Doer. I don't think it is original at all. Maybe the driven pulley is not original. It is a single v pulley.


----------



## DoogieB

It's hard to tell from the picture, but in the bottom picture the driven pulley off the motor (the aluminium pulley at the top) should be a 2 step FLAT pulley.  Yes, SB used a V belt to drive a flat pulley, but it actually works quite well and allows the operator to move the belt back & forth for speed changes relatively easily without messing with the belt tension.

Is your pulley not flat?  It's hard to see from that picture.  I can grab a picture of the one on my 10K which should be the same as yours.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

DoogieB said:


> It's hard to tell from the picture, but in the bottom picture the driven pulley off the motor (the aluminium pulley at the top) should be a 2 step FLAT pulley.  Yes, SB used a V belt to drive a flat pulley, but it actually works quite well and allows the operator to move the belt back & forth for speed changes relatively easily without messing with the belt tension.
> 
> Is your pulley not flat?  It's hard to see from that picture.  I can grab a picture of the one on my 10K which should be the same as yours.



One side is a V and then there is a flat on the outboard half.  What you are saying makes sense but I would never have thought about driving a V belt on a flat. I will have to try it out and see what happens.


----------



## PaPa_Jack

Another question. The gear door guard has a badly loose hinge pin. Someone tried to solder it but it doesn't work right. I have been watching on ebay but the number inside the door is 650NK1. The doors that match that are specified for a 10K lathe. Are they the same? Holding the door closed. it just doesn't seem to be a good fit. I am wondering if at some point it was replaced.

Two doors were listed as for a 9A on ebay but they don't look the same. The hinge pins look a lot lower.


----------



## SUOMI

Good buy I just got found my first SB Heavy 10 for 600.00. Don't look as good as yours though.  Plus all I got was a 3 jaw chuck. Have fun!


----------



## SUOMI

First post and already a typo! Need to get use to typing. These hands aren't good for that.


----------



## Smithdoor

It good lathe I have one my self
Looking for more  info
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/southbendlathe9/info
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/southbendmanual/info

Dave


----------



## LucknowKen

PaPa_Jack said:


> Another question. The gear door guard has a badly loose hinge pin. Someone tried to solder it but it doesn't work right. I have been watching on ebay but the number inside the door is 650NK1. The doors that match that are specified for a 10K lathe. Are they the same? Holding the door closed. it just doesn't seem to be a good fit. I am wondering if at some point it was replaced.
> 
> Two doors were listed as for a 9A on ebay but they don't look the same. The hinge pins look a lot lower.



First off, that is a beautiful machine. You scored.
You should keep that lathe original. The part for your door (the 650N) is on page 3A part# 2093 (Babbitt for Change Gear Guard Bracket).
View attachment 136551


IMHO just align (square) the hinge pin and fill with hot lead.
I for one would love to see some photos of your progress.


----------

