# Atlas/craftsman Or Pm 1022 V



## jdsc (Oct 30, 2015)

Hi,
Thanks for looking. I posted this over on the PM forum and thought I would post it here to get another perspective. 

A while back, I started thinking about a small lathe for the garage. I've used them in the past but it's been a few years. 

At first I was considering the 8 x16 variable speed Grizzly G0768. It seemed like a nice little lathe,  but after some consideration and comments from others on the forum, I started looking at the 9 x 19. Still too small, so like many others I moved on to the 10 x 22 / 30 series and narrowed it down to the Grizzly 602. Of course common sense said it would be nice to have a variable speed, so now I'm looking at the Grizzly 752 or the PM 1022 V. FWIW, I talked with Matt at PM about the PM 1022 V, and he indicated that he might not order any more simply because the  PM 1030V is so close in price, and is a more versatile machine with its 30" center distance.

I was ready to pull the trigger this week, when I saw a Craigslist posting for an Atlas/Craftsman 12 x 36. I hadn't really considered these before, but went and took a look at one locally and was very, very impressed.  (Unfortunately, the one I looked at was on it's last legs and it's best days were behind it.) It seems like a decent choice for a home shop. I noticed many of the members swear by them, not at them, and parts are still available, both from the factory and of course Ebay and Craigslist......

I even went and took a look at an older Grizzly 13 x 37, belt drive, gap bed which was very well priced but also very well used.  In reality,  I think that would be too big, too heavy, and it runs on 220. Now, I have 220 in my shop, so no problem, but it is pretty big, doesn't have the factory stand, and looks to be more of a project than I want to take on right now, and I really don't need something that big.

So, I'm back to the choice between the PM 1030 V and a nice, Atlas/Craftsman 12x36 Commercial with the 1/2" ways. My budget would be about the same for both assuming the 12x36 comes with a decent amount of tooling.

The pluses of the PM are, it's new with warranty. Has a larger spindle bore and MT taper, 1" vs 3/4". Variable speed. V shaped ways vs flat. 21 imperial and some number of metric threading capability. 

The pluses of the Atlas/Craftsman are: American made. Quality product. It has a very decent speed range albeit, via belt drive and change. Good reputation. Parts availability, etc. And, it is much more capable as far as thread cutting choices, though I'm not sure about it's metric capability. I assume change gears for that are available, but perhaps those of you on this forum could fill me in on what's possible.  

So, the real question, assuming I can find a really decent Atlas/Craftsman 12x36 Commercial lathe at a decent price, which would you choose? Thanks in advance for your input, comments, and advice.

Jim


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## doug j (Oct 30, 2015)

I don't post much, mostly lurk and by no means am I a machinist but I have used one of the Craftsman Commercials your talking about for the last couple years, as long as you don't expect South Bend rigidity and it's just for hobby use they are fine little lathes. Sure I would like to have a little bigger and sturdier lathe but this one does all I need it to, there's good deals to be had on them because of some of the stigma that goes with them, I got mine in pristine condition, 3 chucks, a milling attachment and two plastic totes full of tooling for $700. Just my .02.


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## wa5cab (Oct 30, 2015)

I also have an Atlas 3996 (12x36) since new.  I'm fortunate enough to have bought most of the available accessories for it when I bought the lathe because in recent years when I decided to try to acquire the ones that I didn't buy, I found that the ones that I was looking for weren't plentiful and weren't cheap when I did find them.  I wouldn't trade it for a new Chinese one and expect it to outlive me.

On the subject of spindle bore, 1" versus 3/4" doesn't buy you much.  The last two jobs that I had to use the steady rest on because the stock was larger than 3/4" dia. it was also larger than 1".  Regardless of what you have, sooner or later something will come along that's too large to do the easy way.  For example, I found that I could bore 10" Land Rover brake drums but not 11".  And I had both in my "fleet".    And I can't get all choked up over V-belts versus gears.  They each have their pluses and minuses.  Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that a 12x36 is about the ideal compromise size for a small or home shop.  Most of the time when I needed to do something too large, it was REALLY too large.


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## jdsc (Oct 31, 2015)

Thanks for the input and observations. Sounds like good recommendations all around. Your comment on bore size is very valid. What is too big is usually too big for anything you might have. And, if you have a steady rest, you can probably use that to help with the project. Well, unless either of you is willing to sell your 12 x 36, I'll keep looking. And, as always, thanks again for the comments.
Jim


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## Dan_S (Oct 31, 2015)

jdsc said:


> So, the real question, assuming I can find a really decent Atlas/Craftsman 12x36 Commercial lathe at a decent price, which would you choose? Thanks in advance for your input, comments, and advice.



This will be the biggest issue, finding an old lathe that's in good shape, It can be done, but you need to be prepared to wait a while.

If your going to wait to find a good old lathe, I'd recommend getting a Clausing, they are beefier, and don't seem to have the nostalgia mark up that Southbend & Atlas seem to have.


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## wa5cab (Oct 31, 2015)

The Clausings are good machines and also have Timken spindle beariings (which the other choices mostly don't) and also have some OEM support.  But fewer were built so one in good condition will likely be harder to find.  Same with all of the accessories.  However, you could certainly look for both and buy whichever one turns up first.


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## Dan_S (Oct 31, 2015)

This website will help you immensely, when you are looking at old machines.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html


If you find a 14" short bed version of one of these, you let me know. 
http://www.lathes.co.uk/pacemaker/index.html


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 31, 2015)

Unless you're buying a used lathe from someone you really trust (that also knows the lathe inside and out) and know the history of it, for the same money I'd go with a PM1030 every time. You'll have a warranty, great support and no nasty surprises. Plus, after a short amount of set up and tweaking, you should be in action right away rather than spending what can take quite an extraordinary amount of time fixing things. Now, if you can get a used lathe with the same amount of tooling/ capabilities for half that of a new one, then that changes everything.

Case in point, the 618 that I bought off a colleague - great price, lots of tooling, still finding whoopsies that previous owners planted. Took me a long time to figure out why I could never get the 3 jaw (a very nice Bison) to run true - whoever bought it got a backplate with ever so slightly wrong bolt circle diameter. Had to buy 3 bolts and drill new holes, now it's running 1-2thou which is a huge improvement, but something I would be unlikely to have to deal with on a new lathe.


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## jdsc (Nov 1, 2015)

Dan,

Here you go......American Pacemaker 14x54   http://tulsa.craigslist.org/tls/5255681039.html  $2500

The write up on the lathe in Lathes.co.uk is amazing and makes for a great read. 

It really puts my search in perspective.  Good luck and have fun.

And, Matt, great perspective. That is the dilema I am trying to deal with. New Asian, few problems, or used and who knows what, but American quality.

I guess I'll sit tight and be patient.  Thanks again for the comments.


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## wa5cab (Nov 4, 2015)

Unfortunately, if you buy Chinese, the odds of a nasty surprise tend to be inversely proportional to what you paid for it, but never zero.  No one has ever reported remembering their father or grandfather saying that he bought an Atlas lathe and it was a lemon.  The only Chinese vendors that I've ever bought things from that I've never had a problem with are either in Taiwan or in Hong Kong.


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## jdsc (Nov 4, 2015)

Good point. I like the idea of a good  stout American made machine and it's associated quality. And, one of the reasons I was posting on here is to get opinions and feedback from those that have had both. I've seen enough of the good, and the bad to know that I don't want to buy a new lathe that is a pre-assembled project that needs as much work as
a good, used, well cared for machine. And, there is the positive side of used, often times there is lots of tooling that doesn't have to be bought in order to do some of the simple things.


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## Dan_S (Nov 4, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> No one has ever reported remembering their father or grandfather saying that he bought an Atlas lathe and it was a lemon.



I think that depends a lot on who you talk to, what else they have owned/worked on, and what they have done with those machines. for example I'm willing to bet someone who has spent a lot of time using a long bed 10EE (12.5" x30") would not speak very highly of any Atlas model. The same would most likely be true of someone who spent a lot of time using an HLV.

I have heard several negative things about Atlas lathes.
1) flat ways are inferior to v ways
2) they are not very rigid, the bed flexes under heavy cuts.
3) the change gears are weak
4) threading on chucks are inferior to other methods.

The context is what's important.


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## wa5cab (Nov 5, 2015)

Dan,

By "lemon" as you should well know, I meant something that does not perform to specs.

Actually, V-ways have only one practical advantage over flat ways.  When the rear of the rear way and front of the front way wears and you tighten up the rear gib to compensate, you may not be able to run the carriage all the way to the right end of the bed.  Otherwise, both are subject to the same vertical errors due to wear in the vertical direction and horizontal errors due to horizontal wear.  The real problem is that the Atlas ways were not hardened, to reduce their acquisition cost.  It is very unlikely that anyone at Atlas expected that so many of their machines would still be doing productive work 80 years on.  The largest lathe that I ever saw was a flat bed.  It was literally large enough to mount a 10EE on its faceplate.  I imagine that the steady rest probably weighed more than my Land Rover.  I hired the company that owned it to turn some artificial defects in the OD of a 20 foot length of 48" 0.562" wall X60 line pipe.  The only problem I had with it was that they wouldn't let me run it.  

Your point #2 is valid up to a point.  But the Atlas lathes were actually designed to be mounted to a better than average grade of bench or stand and solidly anchored to the floor, slab or deck.  But too many hobbyists slap them onto a flimsy bench and add insult to injury by putting castors under the bench.  Properly installed, even the 3/8" bed machines do considerably better than their reputation among owners of certain badges claim.  Plus the reason that there are so few 10EE's around is that that they cost so much that few could afford them.  Which wasn't the case with the Atlas machines.

The Atlas change gears when new are stronger than cast iron gears and a bunch less expensive than hobbed steel gears.  The problem is that an estimated 10% of them over the years fell victim to something called Zinc Pest, caused by Zinc of insufficient purity being used to cast them.  Atlas did make the mistake of making a few parts out of Zamak that they shouldn't have.  All of those problems were corrected by about 1936, and only the Zinc Pest problem (which didn't appear until after WW-II) remained until about 1979 when someone (probably an accountant working for Clausing) ignored history and repeated the mistake.  Which along with competition from cheap foreign manufacturers killed the line.

You have to adequately define "inferior".  If you mean less runout, the theoretical difference is about 0.001" or less.  Which is better than one usually expects from any 3-jaw chuck regardless of how it is mounted.  That could actually have been eliminated by the simple expedient of replacing the straight register with a more expensive tapered one.  But the cost-benefit ratio did not support that.  If you mean not being able to take a heavy cut in reverse, again the cost outweighed the benefit.  There are only a few normal lathe operations where you need to run the spindle in reverse.  There is an easy workaround for cutting left-hand threads.  Grinding in reverse isn't a problem.  And if you must put a heavy load on the chuck, then you buy a screw-on chuck designed for that.  I have one but have so far never needed to use it.  In the larger diameters (larger than anything that Atlas built), there begin to be problems with mounting and dismounting threaded chucks so different and more expensive chuck mounting methods are used.  Plus Atlas is far from the only lathe manufacturer to use threaded-nose spindles.  All of their competition did as well.

In any case, we don't deliberately bad-mouth other people or their equipment on this site.  Regardless of what brand it is or where it was made.


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## jdsc (Nov 9, 2015)

To all that answered my request for information I appreciate all the conversation and input. After much consideration, my first choice would be an Atlas/Craftsman commercial, 12x36. But, this weekend I came across a very little used, excellent condition Grizzly G4003 12x36 for a great price. Most accessories had never been used and the lathe itself is in pristine condition. So, for much less than a G0758 or PM1030V, I decided to give it a go. Besides it was in my neighborhood. So, I'll try it out and see how it fits my needs and if for some reason it's wanting, I'll put it up for sale and go another direction. In the meantime, time to make some chips and once again many thanks to all that responded and helped me make the decision to go big or go home......
Jim


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## mattthemuppet2 (Nov 9, 2015)

nice! That's quite a step up from any of the other options! However, as you may discover, no pics = didn't happen


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## jdsc (Nov 10, 2015)

Here you go.....it did happen, and my back will attest to that.....


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## mattthemuppet2 (Nov 10, 2015)

wow, looks like new! If your back is aching, you must be extremely strong


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## jdsc (Nov 11, 2015)

Don't see a date on it, just the serial number. Will have to call Grizzly and find out but it's supposed to be about 10 years old. But, it does look nice. 

A two ton Harbor Freight hydraulic engine hoist makes life so much easier.


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