# TIG torch water cooler on the cheap??



## Janderso

Don't throw rocks at me. I checked the search, I couldn't find any threads on this subject.
Has anyone bought one of these $235 tig torch water coolers on Ebay?
It looks like they run about a litre a minute. Some are 220v which would be a PITA.
I have to buy the water cooled torch on top of the cooler if I go that direction.
Spend some time on a tig torch and you know why I want one.
Thanks guys and gals.
Testimonials please.









						NEW WRC-300A TIG Welder Machine water cooler Torch Welding Inverter single phase  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NEW WRC-300A TIG Welder Machine water cooler Torch Welding Inverter single phase at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## Alexander McGilton

Maybe put the cooler on a GFCI. do you trust their grounding procedures?


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## NCjeeper

That is the same one I just bought but in green.


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## benmychree

In my shop, we used a carbonator pump and a 5 gallon bucket for a "cooler"


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## Janderso

I’ll have to look up carbonator


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## Cadillac

I was fortunate to get the water cooler with the purchase of my dynasty200. Looking at it its just a reservoir, a little pump probably could use a fish tank pump, and a trans cooler size radiator with a fan. Just circulating coolant in a loop.  Looking at maybe a 100 dollars in parts and I'm sure you'd enjoy tiggin up a box to house it all.


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## GunsOfNavarone

This guy Justin (the fabrication series on youtube) did the fish tank pump in a bucket, cooler...worked well. At any rate, they really are simple...I've eyeballed that same unit you linked to (125 amp or more for more than 10 minutes and my gloves aren't insulated enough) I really don't think you could go wrong, but I'd buy it off  Amazon over Ebay, and the reviews on amazon seem decent...check it out there. Mophorn perhaps?


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## benmychree

Janderso said:


> I’ll have to look up carbonator


A carbonator pump pumps water into a carbonator unit that injects carbon dioxide into the water, think soft drink machine that carbonate, refrigerates, and mixes flavored syrups with the water at your favorite burger joint; the pumps are a carbon vane type pump and mount directly onto a special motor.


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## Nutfarmer

I just run water through the torch from the hose bib and move the discharge hose once in awhile to water the shrubs around the house.


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## Janderso

Steve,
Are you from Arkansas?


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## BGHansen

benmychree said:


> A carbonator pump pumps water into a carbonator unit that injects carbon dioxide into the water, think soft drink machine that carbonate, refrigerates, and mixes flavored syrups with the water at your favorite burger joint; the pumps are a carbon vane type pump and mount directly onto a special motor.


Have a buddy at work who made his TIG cooler using the idea.  The pump/set up started out life as a drink dispenser at a bar.  I'll see if he can send me some photos.

Bruce


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## Janderso

I see the HTP Arctic Chill 5460 is $449 with free shipping. Much bigger capacity. This Old Tony received one of these from USA Weld for a present. He made some changes to make the fan quieter etc. Works great.
So, anybody tried one of these cheapos?


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## Nutfarmer

Jeff , you said cheap. You don't even have to worry about the coolant going bad. Any circulating pump with a reservoir will work. If you want to be fancy just add a small radiator and fan.


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## Joeman77

And do yourself a favor, add some antifreeze to the mix, even if you're not in a cold climate it keeps the bacteria down.


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## Joeman77

Nutfarmer said:


> Jeff , you said cheap. You don't even have to worry about the coolant going bad. Any circulating pump with a reservoir will work. If you want to be fancy just add a small radiator and fan.


We had one at work that was a small coil of 3/8" copper tubing, a 1 gallon tank with a cheesy pump & a small fan (maybe $50 total), and it ran for years. No fancy controls, you turned on the disconnect for the welder and it came on. I think they had more in the fittings to hook it up than the cooler itself.


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## Janderso

Nutfarmer said:


> Jeff , you said cheap. You don't even have to worry about the coolant going bad. Any circulating pump with a reservoir will work. If you want to be fancy just add a small radiator and fan.


I should have put a  after the Arkansas wise crack.
I love you man.


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## jmkasunich

Nutfarmer said:


> I just run water through the torch from the hose bib and move the discharge hose once in awhile to water the shrubs around the house.



This is by far the cheapest.  But depending on the quality of your tap water, you might wind up with mineral deposits in your TIG torch if you use it a lot.  If you have hard water you might want to avoid the "once-through" approach.  Circulating systems can use distilled water to avoid the minerals.


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## gr8legs

Just a quick note about carbonator pumps: they're usually pretty high pressure / high volume and have a 1/4 or 1/3 hp motor which means a lot of wasted power; plus they're noisy.

Look into a submersible aquarium or pond pump. Cheap with adequate volume and pretty noiseless. One of these in a bucket with some hoses and fittings is probably 50 bucks or so.

YMMV

Stu


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## Csxal

I’m looking for something similar. What do you think of these industrial water coolers to hook up to the torch?
Industrial water cooler


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## Janderso

10 liters a minute seems adequate for lower amperage


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## Janderso

gr8legs said:


> Just a quick note about carbonator pumps: they're usually pretty high pressure / high volume and have a 1/4 or 1/3 hp motor which means a lot of wasted power; plus they're noisy.
> 
> Look into a submersible aquarium or pond pump. Cheap with adequate volume and pretty noiseless. One of these in a bucket with some hoses and fittings is probably 50 bucks or so.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> Stu


What about those $235 Tig coolers on EBay with free shipping?
I would link it but I’m in a slow zone in Fortuna CA.


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## Buffalo21

Nutfarmer said:


> I just run water through the torch from the hose bib and move the discharge hose once in awhile to water the shrubs around the house.



Mine goes into the slop sink


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## General Zod

Janderso said:


> 10 liters a minute seems adequate for lower amperage



That's "free flow".  You'll never get 10L/min into/out of a TIG torch setup. Not even with CK Worldwide's ultra-large coolant passage.  I've done extensive testing.  That being said, that's not a bad price for a chiller.  To run it on 120V, just get a small voltage transformer.   It should only consume about 400W max.


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## Nutfarmer

Buffalo21: looks like I am not the only one who does things on the thrifty side .


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## royesses

Here is a 110 voltmodel for $159:








						110V Industrial Water Chiller CW3000 for CNC Laser Engraver Engraving Machine 9L  | eBay
					

Clip Applier. CW-3000 laser water chiller is suitable for small water cooling device. Tank capacity: 9L. Cold Light Source & Cable. Inlet and outlet hold: external φ10mm brass connector. Equipped with alarm output port.



					www.ebay.com
				




They are not chillers, no refrigeration involved. Should do the job for cooling a tig torch.

Roy


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## Janderso

There has to be a difference between a sub $250 Tig cooler and a $1,000 Miller or Lincoln cooler.
Kind of like comparing a $400 plasma cutter to a Hypertherm 45xp.
I tried to save money by buying a cheap plasma cutter, two months later I’m buying a Hypertherm.
Before I buy a Tig cooler, i’d like to see how the chiller works out.


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## Csxal

I


General Zod said:


> That's "free flow".  You'll never get 10L/min into/out of a TIG torch setup. Not even with CK Worldwide's ultra-large coolant passage.  I've done extensive testing.  That being said, that's not a bad price for a chiller.  To run it on 120V, just get a small voltage transformer.   It should only consume about 400W max.



I’m looking for the 220v version since I want to plug it into the back of my Everlast Lightning 275


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## General Zod

Janderso said:


> There has to be a difference between a sub $250 Tig cooler and a $1,000 Miller or Lincoln cooler.
> Kind of like comparing a $400 plasma cutter to a Hypertherm 45xp.
> I tried to save money by buying a cheap plasma cutter, two months later I’m buying a Hypertherm.
> Before I buy a Tig cooler, i’d like to see how the chiller works out.



only one way to find out. Bust open the check book....


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## GunsOfNavarone

If you're looking for the thrifty side....I'd go Amazon, at least your protected. I'm just anti Ebay, not that I don't occasionally go there for vintage machinist tools..

Chiller


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## Csxal

GunsOfNavarone said:


> If you're looking for the thrifty side....I'd go Amazon, at least your protected. I'm just anti Ebay, not that I don't occasionally go there for vintage machinist tools..
> 
> Chiller


I tried finding one there 1st that was 220V but they all are 110V like the one you linked to.


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## GunsOfNavarone

Wow, not trying to talk you into it...different subject, but why a 220 chiller? Just b/c your rig is 220, that doesn't mean you need to run a 220v chiller does it?


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## chips&more

Nutfarmer said:


> I just run water through the torch from the hose bib and move the discharge hose once in awhile to water the shrubs around the house.


This is the same thing I do. For the amount of high current tig that I do. Any other set-up would be a waste of time and money.


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## Buffalo21

I have an old Teledyne cooler, that’s about 3 to 4 times the size of the current welder...


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## Weldo

I'm in the bucket camp.  If you want a cooler on the cheap it don't get much cheaper than that.  I run a small submersible pump in a 7 gallon plastic tote.  I like the tote because it's clear, has a lid and fits perfectly on the bottom shelf of my welder stand.

I tried adding some antifreeze to keep bacteria/algae from forming but it still did eventually.  When I flushed it out I used tap water and a splash of bleach.  It's been fine for about two years now.  The only down side is that I have to remember to plug in the pump before welding and unplug when finished.  One time I forgot and it ran all night, it's so quiet I didn't even notice.

When I first started building a cooler I tried to run the water through a radiator I harvested from an old air conditioner.  The pump couldn't push the water through the dozens of feet of tubing so I abandoned the idea.  You'd have to do a crap load of high amp welding to heat up 7 gallons of water to the point that it's no longer effective at heat transfer.


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## Janderso

GunsOfNavarone said:


> If you're looking for the thrifty side....I'd go Amazon, at least your protected. I'm just anti Ebay, not that I don't occasionally go there for vintage machinist tools..
> 
> Chiller


You notice it looks like an Everlast?


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## Aukai

I have a 45 XP, and a coolmate 3....


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## Csxal

I pulled the trigger last night and ordered the coolmate 300  220v. I wanted to go with the 220, since I already have welder hooked up to 220, I can just plug cooler right into back of welder and they both turn on and off at same time.


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## Janderso

Csxal said:


> I pulled the trigger last night and ordered the coolmate 300  220v. I wanted to go with the 220, since I already have welder hooked up to 220, I can just plug cooler right into back of welder and they both turn on and off at same time.


Csxal,
That’s the real deal. Cooling capacity one liter per minute with a three gallon tank right?
On Miller’s site, it’s the only one with the 220 option.
Well done sir. I’m jealous.

I just realized, I started this thread Back in March.
I’m asking if anyone has experience with the ubiquitous blue  EBay $250 Tig water coolers??
Did you buy one?
How is it working for you?


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## pontiac428

A water cooler not a sophisticated system. The only reason to pay a premium is for parts support and reliability. That said, I have a Miller white face radiator that is older than dirt and still going strong.


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## Csxal

Janderso said:


> Csxal,
> That’s the real deal. Cooling capacity one liter per minute with a three gallon tank right?
> On Miller’s site, it’s the only one with the 220 option.
> Well done sir. I’m jealous.
> 
> I just realized, I started this thread Back in March.
> I’m asking if anyone has experience with the ubiquitous blue  EBay $250 Tig water coolers??
> Did you buy one?
> How is it working for you?



2 gallon tank


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## FlyFishn

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Wow, not trying to talk you into it...different subject, but why a 220 chiller? Just b/c your rig is 220, that doesn't mean you need to run a 220v chiller does it?





Csxal said:


> I pulled the trigger last night and ordered the coolmate 300  220v. I wanted to go with the 220, since I already have welder hooked up to 220, I can just plug cooler right into back of welder and they both turn on and off at same time.



I'm late to the party - but just a thought. If you run 4 conductor wire to where the welder plugs in (NMEA 14-50 plug for example) you have both voltages. It feeds off the same breaker. Your "4th wire" is neutral.

However, if you want to get technical - on service entrance panels in North America neutral and.... take a guess here... earth ground are bonded together. That means if you check continuity on a 120v outlet your neutral wire and ground have continuity - because they are tied together at the breaker box.

Sub panels are a different story. They may not have bonded neutrals (meaning bonded to ground). However, that sub-panel is pulling power from a main panel that eventually will tie in to service entrance where ground and neutral are bonded.

So, technically speaking, because neutral and ground are bonded together you can reverse the theory and say that your "ground wire" on a 3 conductor pair (note that I didn't mention voltage - as the power lines don't matter - if you get hot and neutral or L1 hot and L2 hot, doesn't matter) is your neutral. So by taking either of your L1 or L2 hots across ground you have your 120v.

The catch to the above is that in romex the ground wire is paper wrapped, and when you get to larger conductor wire (likely 10g and up) the "ground wire" is reduced in size. It seems to me that 8/3 and 8/4 (fixed install building wire, not SO cable for equipment hook-ups) size wire uses only 8g for hots and neutral, whereas ground is 12g or 14g. So by theory of wire gauge the smaller gauge wire would be current limited. So for a light bulb on a drill press or a coolant pump you might be able to get by.

Though, for big machines (like lathes) that have 120v accessory power - such as to run digital readouts - they have a secondary winding on an input transformer that supplies the accessory power. The good thing about this is sometimes the inputs of those transformers have a few taps to meet various line voltages - that keeps your control voltages much closer to spec.

But for a work light or a small pump motor where the voltage isn't critical and the amperage is very low - even on a 240v grounded circuit you should be able to get 120v if you need to.

The catch is if you end up needing to draw current later it wouldn't be a smart idea to run off the ground wire as neutral...

To each their own, and if it were me I wouldn't want to use a ground wire as neutral normally, but the theory is here to do it and if it were temporary or to prove a concept it would be possible.


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## jmkasunich

FlyFishn said:


> I'm late to the party - but just a thought. If you run 4 conductor wire to where the welder plugs in (NMEA 14-50 plug for example) you have both voltages. It feeds off the same breaker. Your "4th wire" is neutral.
> 
> However, if you want to get technical - on service entrance panels in North America neutral and.... take a guess here... earth ground are bonded together. That means if you check continuity on a 120v outlet your neutral wire and ground have continuity - because they are tied together at the breaker box.
> 
> ...snipped the details...
> 
> To each their own, and if it were me I wouldn't want to use a ground wire as neutral normally, but the theory is here to do it and if it were temporary or to prove a concept it would be possible.



Some folks here are probably very familiar with electrical stuff, and some others aren't.  I want to make it clear that using ground as a neutral is NOT legit per code.  Yes, you'll probably get away with it for some light load like a light bulb.  But if that ground conductor ever opens up between the machine and the panel, then the frame of the machine is going to be hot through the light.

Back in the day there was an exception in the code for electric kitchen ranges and electric dryers - they were allowed to use three prongs even though they had some 120V loads (the light inside the oven, the motor in the dryer).  That was changed, I think in 1999.  

Other than kitchen ranges and dryers, it has pretty much never been legit to run anything that has both 120V and 240V loads on a three-pronged plug.  You need both ground and neutral.


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## Janderso

FlyFishn said:


> However, if you want to get technical - on service entrance panels in North America neutral and.... take a guess here... earth ground are bonded together. That means if you check continuity on a 120v outlet your neutral wire and ground have continuity - because they are tied together at the breaker box.


I always thought that was weird.


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## FlyFishn

Janderso said:


> I always thought that was weird.



Ah the lessons learned the hard way. I was troubleshooting a transformer-based DC power supply trying to check the waveform at the rectifier. Chassis ground and neutral being the same here... I clipped the 'scope probe ground to one of the input rails to the rectifier set (AC side) and created a dead short through the 'scope. Luckilly the only smoke that blew was from the small lead to the shield of the 'scope probe. In fact, I opened up the alligator clip, cleaned up the wire, and put it back on. I still use it today.


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## royesses

FlyFishn said:


> Ah the lessons learned the hard way. I was troubleshooting a transformer-based DC power supply trying to check the waveform at the rectifier. Chassis ground and neutral being the same here... I clipped the 'scope probe ground to one of the input rails to the rectifier set (AC side) and created a dead short through the 'scope. Luckilly the only smoke that blew was from the small lead to the shield of the 'scope probe. In fact, I opened up the alligator clip, cleaned up the wire, and put it back on. I still use it today.



An isolation transformer is a good way to prevent this.

Roy


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## FlyFishn

There is a method of using an oscilloscope to measure DC amperage. The way you do it is you put a very low resistance resistor (a wire with known value, in the milliohm range, works also). Then you sample the voltage going in to it and the voltage coming out of it. The difference in the voltage across the resistor calculates out to the amperage through it. 

You might recognize the theory as a current shunt. It is, but it doesn't have to be a ready-made shunt.

Shunts are typically placed on the negative lead of a DC power circuit, not the positive lead.

The down-side is that on DC systems the negative side is chassis ground. Chassis ground is at the same potential as the ground pin of a 120v outlet. If your power supply and Oscilloscope are plugged in to the same outlet then the chassis ground of the oscilloscope is at the same potential as the chassis of the power supply....... which is the same potential as the negative wire in your DC power circuit. 

Since you sample your DUT (device under test, or circuit) with the probe tip - not the ground side of a probe - the tip of the probe is what you are trying to measure the voltage drop of the shunt with. That negative lead is already at chassis ground. So all 3 wires - the negative wire where the shunt is placed, thus the probe tip, and the probe ground/shield are at the same potential. 

Problem number 1 - the probe tip and ground are at the same potential. You can't measure across shorted out probed - there will be nothing to measure. 

To bring the potential of the DUT to something that can be measured you can reverse the polarity of the probes. Since the tip of the probe is measuring across the shunt on the negative side that means you would need to raise the ground lead to positive. That gives you reverse polarity and a difference in potential to measure across, right? 

What happens when you connect the negative probe lead (at ground potential through the power outlet) to the positive lead of the DC power supply? Keep in mind chassis ground on both the power supply and 'scope are at the same potential. 

Problem number 2 - You short out the power supply through the ground of the 'scope. 



royesses said:


> An isolation transformer is a good way to prevent this.
> 
> Roy



Somewhat correct. You need to float the power supply AND disconnect the ground loop. 

The way I did the above was with a DC to AC power inverter run off another AC to DC supply. That gave me the floating power supply and break in ground (the inverter chassis ground was not connected to service ground, otherwise I would have reconnected the ground loop). 

Then I swapped the shunt to the positive lead and the hooplah of the floating power supply requirement went away. But I did learn something. Better than staying in a Holiday Inn Express and I didn't electrocute myself. Its all good. A few sparks and smoke won't hurt too much, sometimes....


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## royesses

an elegant expensive option is a differential probe. But it is hard to justify the cost if you are not making a living at it.

Roy


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## homebrewed

Not to be a wet blanket, but personally I detest chillers.  I worked in a high-tech lab with million-dollar tools, some of which required a chiller.  Even highly-rated chillers didn't seem to last very long, a few years and bye-bye.  Hopefully the $400 chiller failure didn't damage the $1M tool as a result (!).  Like the choice of a $.25 fan on a motherboard that fails and kills your much more expensive computer, sometimes I just don't understand the mentality of saving every last millicent regardless of what the final application is.

We had a stack of dead chillers in the back room waiting to be dispositioned.  And, BTW, our luck with refurbished chillers was even worse. 

Personally I'd go for the lowest-tech approach, either single-pass from your house supply or if hard water is a real problem, a coolant loop with distilled water, a bucket and pump.

Also, unless you are vigilant about using glycol or other (usually nasty) anti-algae additives like Chloramine, you will get algae growth in your hoses (and bucket).  Using black hoses and an opaque reservoir to keep out light can help prevent algae growth.


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## pontiac428

@homebrewed, a chiller is a phase-change device, whereas a radiator is simply a water loop with a pump, radiator, and fan.  TIG coolers are usually the latter, multiplying the available surface area for convective cooling without any electronics to speak of.  Like I said above, not much to go wrong with these systems.

For preservation, you can make your own coolant with non-toxic propylene glycol and a squirt of child-safe benzalkonium chloride (polyquat) disinfectant from the hot tub aisle.  That's what Miller sells for $30 a gallon, pre-diluted.


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## Weldo

Regarding water choice, I've heard before that distilled water can be very aggressive in attacking metals.  The idea is that since it lacks any sort of trace amounts of metals and minerals that it will try to remove metals and minerals from its vessel at an atomic level.  Municipal supply adds in minerals to prevent this from happening.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?


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## FlyFishn

I'm no expert water... but it would seem to me that if you are circulating water that you want to put some kind of chemicals in there, antifreeze etc, to keep the grime down. 

I don't think you are going to find any "pure water" solution to be a long-term solution. That having been said, if you put an additive in there (like antifreeze, not sure if that is appropriate or not) the additive will also protect the liquid circuit, not just keep the grime from growing.


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## homebrewed

pontiac428 said:


> @homebrewed, a chiller is a phase-change device, whereas a radiator is simply a water loop with a pump, radiator, and fan.  TIG coolers are usually the latter, multiplying the available surface area for convective cooling without any electronics to speak of.  Like I said above, not much to go wrong with these systems.
> 
> For preservation, you can make your own coolant with non-toxic propylene glycol and a squirt of child-safe benzalkonium chloride (polyquat) disinfectant from the hot tub aisle.  That's what Miller sells for $30 a gallon, pre-diluted.


After looking at the innards of many dead chillers, I am, unfortunately, very familiar with the technology that goes into a chiller.  I agree that a simple loop with a radiator and pump is the most bullet-proof.  

I see where my earlier comment could be interpreted as promoting a refrigerator-based system , which was not my intent.  Sorry 'bout that .


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## Weldo

So, a thing happened to me today.

I had a few welds to make on a small weldment so I get to it like usual.  After the first weld I notice the water cooled torch feels a bit hotter than usual.  I was probably running around 150A but the welds were short, just 6 welds at 1" each.

I let the piece cool a bit to minimize warpage and so I could reconfigure some clamps.  I go to make another weld, about 1.5" long this time and halfway through the weld I hear, "Poof.......Ssssshhhhhhhh."  I thought it may have been a gas related problem since my tank was almost empty but I did not loose shielding.  As welders do, the bead was going great so I just kept on welding.

Upon lifting my helmet I notice a small trickle of water running down the TIG torch hose protector.  "Hmmm..." I thought.  That's a problem.





Here's what I found under the hose protector.





You can see the copper conductor inside.





On a positive note, the weld came out great!





So I'm guessing what happened was the torch head got clogged up.  Water could no longer circulate and steam built up until it burst the hose.

At this point I had 3 more welds to make just like the one pictured above.  I let the torch cool a little and made another pass.  This time steam began pouring out of the hose breach within seconds of striking the arc.  The water pump was off, of course.

Might as well keep going I guess, the torch is already boned.  The third weld came with so much steam that it actually wafted up and messed up my shielding!  Shortly after the steam cloud came the smell of burning rubber and thick white smoke.  Time to stop.  I did finish that weld but even with only one weld left to perform I figured it was too foolish to continue with this torch.

Luckily I still had the old air cooled torch that I got with this welder.  Unluckily I seem to have lost the back cap for it.  Man, I just had 1.5" of weld to finish this part!  Well, you know what they say about desperate times.  I took the back cap off my water torch and taped in onto the other one.  I wrapped a bunch of teflon tape around it followed by some electrical tape.  Lo and behold it worked just fine!





So now I'm in the market for a new torch and a proper cooler to replace this cobbled together system.





I think the problems I have experienced are due to several factors.  First, my cooler is open to the atmosphere, thus it has great potential for mold growth.  To mitigate this I had added a small amount of chlorine bleach to the regular tap water in the tub.  The bleach has affected the hoses in a negative fashion.  The hoses have become softer than when new and some have even become white from the bleach.

Also the pump I'm using cannot supply ample flow or pressure.  As an example, I was looking at the Speedway model TIG torch from Weldtec and it recommends 50psi of coolant pressure.  My set up cannot approach that spec, offering only a trickle at best.

Lastly I know for a fact that calcium build up is an issue with our municipal water supply.  The build up is not terrible but it is present on some of the other plumbing fixtures in the home.

So now I think I might me ready to invest in a proper welding cooler and use the proper coolant in the system.  The thing I have now has worked for years and I am by no means a production shop, with my welder only seeing occasional use, but I want something that will work well every time I need it.  I expect the initial investment to be somewhat high but I also expect a more robust and foolproof system than my home made solution.

Any thoughts or comments?


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## pontiac428

I don't have any comments about your setup, because you are figuring that part out.  For the coolant, use distilled/deionized water.  Buy it by the gallon at your grocery store or wally world.  Then add about 1/3 v/v of propylene glycol (amazon if nothing else) and add a tablespoon or two per gallon of benzalkonium chloride (a quaternary amine disinfectant) sold as "polyquat" or hot tub disinfectant, cheap, amazon.  That's the formula for the premium premix.  I don't know if I'm repeating myself in this thread or not with that recipe.


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## brino

Weldo said:


> On a positive note, the weld came out great!



You certainly sound like a welder; You got that bead done!

I remember a t-shirt I saw:
"I know I'm on fire, I just have to finish this weld!"



pontiac428 said:


> I don't know if I'm repeating myself in this thread or not with that recipe.



Maybe, but I welcome the knowledge!

-brino


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## Weldo

brino said:


> You certainly sound like a welder; You got that bead done!



Haha thanks, man!  Sometimes you just really get in the zone!

@pontiac428 I like your recipe, it would likely be much more cost effective than buying coolant pre-made for $30 a gallon.  Regarding distilled water, I read somewhere that since it lacks any and all minerals that distilled water can tend to leach them out of its container thus causing significant corrosion like damage.  I thought that the municipal water companies add minerals to water not only for nutrition but also to help protect the pipes that carry the water.  Can anyone speak to that?



Regarding my equipment failure, here's a few pics of the innards after a tear down.





There's lots of nastiness on the parts that were submerged in the bleach water 24/7 for many months.  That hose on the right used to be black!  And it used to have a woven sheath on it.  The bleach must have eaten it away.





There's a little build up inside the pipes on the torch body.





It's not as bad as I was expecting though.  I can still blow through the pipes, so they're not fully clogged.





I dunno.  I thought my issue was clogging but maybe not?  Maybe there was a clog elsewhere in the hose.  I tested my pump, it was still pumping.


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## pontiac428

Why on yaweh's green earth would you soak your torch head in _bleach_?  and for months?!

:***** slap:

I'm at a bit of a loss for words.

You could try removing the copper salts and oxides with acid.  I'd try vinegar first, phosphoric second, HCl third but don't complain if it stains the metals.  Then order all of the components that are ruined.

Those metal salts gotta go, because they will dissociate into the coolant and make it more conductive.  That's a tig torch, not a showerhead.

Minimizing salts in solution are the reason you use distilled water.  You are correct in that a few atoms of copper here or there will jump from components of your system to the coolant, but that is on an infinitesimal scale.  If it were a problem in the real world, you wouldn't be reading this because your water pipes would disintegrating.


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## Weldo

Well, I’d consider this whole thing a long term experiment.  Obviously it didn’t work out!  Also my knowledge of chemicals and their reactions is extremely limited so I’m just fumbling around here.  I never considered things such as conductivity of liquids and the like.

I didn’t _exactly _soak my torch in bleach for months.  My cobbled together cooler used about 5 or so gallons of water into which I had added a few tablespoons of bleach.  In the past I’d tried no bleach in the water but observed significant mold growth in the reservoir after a period of time.  The bleach did keep mold at bay but had a negative effect on the materials.

I’m at the point now where I don’t want to bother with half assed systems and homemade coolants so I’m going to go all in and probably get an HTP cooler and their recommended fluid.  I plan to get a new torch as well, hoses and all.  Saving a few dollars is no longer as important to me as having a properly engineered system that works when I need it to.


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## DANNYBOY

after reading this thread I'm curious has anyone considered using waterless engine coolant in their cooler


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## pontiac428

I think what you did was noble.  It probably would have worked great with a heavier pump and no bleach.  I think a radiator in the loop will help too.

@DANNYBOY, the formula for antifreeze is similar, and includes corrosion inhibitors, wetting agent, and dye.  Antifreezes that I've tested have had very low conductivity when new.  I have not tried it myself, but I see no reason it wouldn't work.  It certainly won't hurt any of the components of the system based on chemistry.


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## Weldo

pontiac428 said:


> I think what you did was noble. It probably would have worked great with a heavier pump and no bleach. I think a radiator in the loop will help too.



Thanks!  If nothing else I learned some stuff!

Originally I did have a radiator in the loop.  I harvested a small one from an old air conditioner but the crappy pump I have couldn't push the fluid through the long length of small tubes even after priming and all that.  The outlet would be only the smallest trickle back into the reservoir.  I was gonna buy one of those Procor pumps but at the time didn't want to spend the time and money to engineer it.


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## Athos

To all Use distilled water and do not use automotive antifreeze-it contains coagulants to stop small leaks and will gum up your Tig torch. Order some coolant for tig welding and it will save your pump. 

All the best 

J


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## NC Rick

I am using air so far.  I'm a welding hobby guy.  We have good water which would work very well in a total loss scenario but plumbing that in would not be conducive to portability.  A friend uses a bucket with success.  By the time I get solenoids, plumbing fixtures and wires with connectors, I think I'm money ahead to buy a $450 Everlast which matches my welder.  I have some of the stuff in the scrap pile but the time it would take to get a system setup that I could personally be happy with has a lot of value to me.  This is my take and is in no means intended to be critical of any DIY solution in fact, I rather enjoy reading and thinking about it. I like my 9 torch but it gets too hot to handle comfortably pretty often and I seldom weld beyond 150 amps.


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## Weldingrod1

Here's what I did many years ago.  My new-er welder came with a professional cooler.  The capacitors are not related to the cooler...  Power factor correction for the welder.


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## Weldingrod1

Oh, and I haven't had any trouble with automotive anti-freeze; I used it in both coolers.


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## Janderso

Weldingrod1 said:


> Here's what I did many years ago.  My new-er welder came with a professional cooler.  The capacitors are not related to the cooler...  Power factor correction for the welder.


The cooler looks like an automotive heater core.


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## Weldingrod1

Good eye!  Its a heater core for a postal van.  I got it from a surplus place.


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## G-ManBart

Weldingrod1 said:


> Oh, and I haven't had any trouble with automotive anti-freeze; I used it in both coolers.



I've been working with coolers, torches and hoses a bunch in the past year or so and have found several newer torches that looked perfect, but had hoses that were crumbling internally leading to restricted flow, or no flow at all.  They were all big name brand torches/lines and had the more expensive super flex cables.  They all had one thing in common....automotive antifreeze was being used in them.  I've even found them where you could run your fingers along the hose and find spots that there was so little rubber left it would collapse with light finger pressure....really weird.  The bad thing is that the rubber crumbles into this sand like stuff that plugs up the smaller passages in the torch head and it turns into almost concrete...no way to clean it out that I've found using wires, rods, acid, etc. 

I think there is something in automotive antifreeze that attacks certain kinds of rubber...probably the more expensive, supple kind based off what I've seen.

Years ago I was working with an engineer at Ford on a project and he told me that when the first deicing windshield washer fluid came out they  found that it was causing a chemical in the rubber tubing that goes out to the nozzles to leech out and it was caustic to paint, so they were getting warranty claims for paint peeling off nearly new cars.  They ultimately had to change the rubber compound to avoid the problem....after spending millions of dollars repainting car roofs.  I think something like that might be going on with the torch hoses....I'm still trying to research it more.

I've gone through something like 20-25 coolers now and there has only been one other issue and that was a cooler run with tap water where the radiator developed pinholes in the copper tubing after a flush.  All the others have been fine except the handful that were used with automotive coolant.  It's not definitive, but certainly suspicious!

I normally use a 50/50 mix of this Cantesco coolant with bottled distilled water and that makes it good for down to about -15F.  The price varies (Amazon doing it's thing) between $16 and $25 per gallon, so even for a big cooler you only need a gallon or two.  It's a few bucks more than automotive antifreeze, but a lot cheaper than having to replace a torch that fails.  They also have versions that are meant for higher temps and those are less expensive....you probably don't have to worry about single-digit temps there!






						CANTESCO CF3-1G Cooling Fluid Low Temperature, -32 Degrees F, 1 gal Jug: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

CANTESCO CF3-1G Cooling Fluid Low Temperature, -32 Degrees F, 1 gal Jug: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com


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