# Pakistani machine shop videos... thoughts?



## taiwanluthiers (Nov 24, 2022)

I see on youtube of machine shops in Pakistan or something, and I wonder what are the thoughts?

I'm speaking of videos from youtube channel like "amazing discovery", "amazing technology" or something of that nature that shows very worn out lathe/mills... often the tool post will have a lot of play, they do not use dial indicators at all to indicate a 4 jaw chuck but instead use a spike suspended by a shaft... All the measurements are done with simple tools, tolerance of something like 0.5mm if they are lucky.






Lots of very hair raising moments, one has to wonder how much do people get hurt?


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## MyLilMule (Nov 24, 2022)

It impressive how much they accomplish with the tools they have. There's one channel where the lathe operator never uses a dial indicator or micrometer. He uses a big lathe with a 4 jaw chuck. He dials things in with a sharp wire on an indicator stand. I don't expect any of those parts to be within .0005" of the target, but often, close enough it close enough.

For the people in these videos, they likely get hurt a lot. Of course, you're not going to see that. I would imagine injuries are common. There is a huge ship breaking industry on the coast of India. On average, one person dies every day. But it's the conditions they have to work in if they want work. There's a line of people (kids, included) waiting to fill the spot.

As an adult, I take risks every day. I alone am responsible for my own safety. Fortunately for me, I can also choose to participate in an activity or not participate if I feel the risk to my safety is too great. But that's MY choice. The people in these videos also have a choice. They can work in the conditions they are given, or they can starve. Unfortunately, it's the way things are in third world environments.

Hungry people will do what it takes to survive. This is not unique to any country or continent. Every nation has gone through or is going through these situations. Sadly, without cheap labor, the world economy would collapse. And unfortunately, cheap labor also, more than likely, also means unsafe working conditions. I'm not meaning to justify any of it, I am just stating a fact as the world is today. Would it be great if things were different? Yes! But that isn't how things are. We can work to change things, but change comes slowly and always with a cost. Many countries, my own included, are not able (or willing) to pay that price.


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## taiwanluthiers (Nov 24, 2022)

MyLilMule said:


> It impressive how much they accomplish with the tools they have. There's one channel where the lathe operator never uses a dial indicator or micrometer. He uses a big lathe with a 4 jaw chuck. He dials things in with a sharp wire on an indicator stand. I don't expect any of those parts to be within .0005" of the target, but often, close enough it close enough.
> 
> For the people in these videos, they likely get hurt a lot. Of course, you're not going to see that. I would imagine injuries are common. There is a huge ship breaking industry on the coast of India. On average, one person dies every day. But it's the conditions they have to work in if they want work. There's a line of people (kids, included) waiting to fill the spot.
> 
> ...


With automation cheap labor may not even be necessary but jobs would be a thing of the past. A CNC for example can produce parts so much faster and in spec than a manual operator, not to mention being able to cut tapers, hob gears, and do all kinds of operations that would take a manual operator days to do, but the CNC does it in an hour. 

In the future only people with money will be people who owns automation equipment.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 24, 2022)

i find it amazing what they can do, but i would not trust any of the repairs


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## brino (Nov 24, 2022)

I have watched a few, and also am amazed at how much they do with so little.
....and of course, I am equally shocked by the dangers I see; long clothes near rotating equipment, no safety glasses, no decent protection (even for the eyes!) when welding, open toe or NO shoes, etc.

I think @MyLilMule summed it up well.

Brian


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## MyLilMule (Nov 24, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> With automation cheap labor may not even be necessary but jobs would be a thing of the past. A CNC for example can produce parts so much faster and in spec than a manual operator, not to mention being able to cut tapers, hob gears, and do all kinds of operations that would take a manual operator days to do, but the CNC does it in an hour.
> 
> In the future only people with money will be people who owns automation equipment.


I think manual machines will not be going anywhere in some of these places. Getting a CNC machine is difficult enough. Getting a place to put it is another thing. Finding a trained operator is again difficult in these countries.

Manual machines are great for one-off parts or repairs. You won't see many people, if any, putting a cracked and welded crank case for a scooter in a CNC machine to fix it. It'll all get done manually.

And when it's more expensive if not impossible to find replacement parts, manual machines are going to be the best option.

There is a used machinery dealer near me. He is constantly shipping old manual lathes and mills to island countries and less developed nations. It is way cheaper to fix a part than it is to have a new one flown in, or have to wait months for it to come by boat.


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## MyLilMule (Nov 24, 2022)

Ulma Doctor said:


> i find it amazing what they can do, but i would not trust any of the repairs


But if it's the only, it's the only option. Risky? Yes. But necessary for survival? Probably equally as true.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 24, 2022)

MyLilMule said:


> But if it's the only, it's the only option. Risky? Yes. But necessary for survival? Probably equally as true.


when you arc weld a broken crankshaft and expect the engine to survive , something is wrong.
it may survive, only to break again at a critical time- no thank you
now you are wasting time


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## Cadillac STS (Nov 24, 2022)

I think those videos are interesting to watch.  Some people very skilled.

Looks like it works for them and they make money with it to support families.  Likely a much simpler life with more leisure time and not needing much income.

Minimal safety equipment.  There are probably lots of injuries.

With all they can do I just keep wondering if they are so resourceful why don’t they have any tables or chairs?  Doing most work on the floor.  I know it is their culture and feels right for them but lot of what they do on the floor would be way more comfortable and productive standing at a table?


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## MyLilMule (Nov 24, 2022)

Ulma Doctor said:


> when you arc weld a broken crankshaft and expect the engine to survive , something is wrong.
> it may survive, only to break again at a critical time- no thank you
> now you are wasting time


If your options are: 

1. Weld the crank shaft and machine it, put it back in, and run it till it breaks again
2. Wait 6 months for a factory replacement at 10 times the cost

Are you prepared to have ZERO income for 6 months, plus be able to afford the correct fix? It's not like these places have unions or unemployment insurance. I understand, and agree, from you perspective and place in life. I wouldn't trust that junk either! But if it were a matter of survival, you're going to do what's necessary to survive. First world thinking does not work in these places.


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## taiwanluthiers (Nov 24, 2022)

Cadillac STS said:


> I think those videos are interesting to watch.  Some people very skilled.
> 
> Looks like it works for them and they make money with it to support families.  Likely a much simpler life with more leisure time and not needing much income.
> 
> ...


It might be that their employer don't want them sitting in chairs, because it means they won't work as hard.

But long sleeves near machines, bracelets, etc. is 100% their choice unless their employer mandate them as dress codes.

They're wearing traditional clothes (which is loose as hell) near lathes and mills.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 24, 2022)

I've seen quite a few impressive videos. This one especially so.









						Huge Industrial Gear Manufacturing || Production Process of Largest Gear | Huge Industrial Gear Manufacturing || Production Process of Largest Gear | By Amazing Technology | Facebook
					

23M views, 219K likes, 5.2K loves, 4.2K comments, 18K shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Amazing Technology: Huge Industrial Gear Manufacturing || Production Process of Largest Gear




					fb.watch


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## Ultradog MN (Nov 24, 2022)

I'll bet they don't have adult kids living in the basement playing video games all day.
Hard work and risk taking builds character - something a lot of 1st world kids don't have.


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## MyLilMule (Nov 24, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> I've seen quite a few impressive videos. This one especially so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I bet there's no place left in the USA that could make that gear. If there are, it's probably they only one.


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## great white (Nov 24, 2022)

People are expendable in the places you see this type of thing.

Developed countries can afford health and safety rules/laws. 3rd world countries can’t and labor is so plentiful (unskilled) its “crack open another can of machinists” when one of their workers gets sucked into the chuck and sprayed all over the surrounding floor/dirt.

I count my blessings every day that I was born in Canada.

Is Canada perfect? Heck no. We’ve got a long list of problems we need to work on, like most places.

But its a damn sight better than 80-90% of this mudball flying through space…..


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## benmychree (Nov 24, 2022)

Yes, I have watched a lot of those videos and am amazed at the crudity of so many of them, very seldom seeing any precision measuring tools, but I do know from personal experience that measurements are fairly easy to make within about .005" using a caliper and rule.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 24, 2022)

benmychree said:


> Yes, I have watched a lot of those videos and am amazed at the crudity of so many of them, very seldom seeing any precision measuring tools, but I do know from personal experience that measurements are fairly easy to make within about .005" using a caliper and rule.


I used to be called upon to cut 72" lengths of rect tube to +/- .005 using a carefully calibrated tape measure and cold saw. No problem. Of course no one had any way to check my work, but the customer never complained.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 24, 2022)

MyLilMule said:


> If your options are:
> 
> 1. Weld the crank shaft and machine it, put it back in, and run it till it breaks again
> 2. Wait 6 months for a factory replacement at 10 times the cost
> ...


Agreed!


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## stupoty (Nov 24, 2022)

brino said:


> I have watched a few, and also am amazed at how much they do with so little.
> ....and of course, I am equally shocked by the dangers I see; long clothes near rotating equipment, no safety glasses, no decent protection (even for the eyes!) when welding, open toe or NO shoes, etc.
> 
> I think @MyLilMule summed it up well.
> ...


They mostly use safety flip flips 

Stu


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## Janderso (Nov 24, 2022)

Ulma Doctor said:


> i find it amazing what they can do, but i would not trust any of the repairs


No, especially since the metal they use is an unknown. The scrap they cram into the mix is questionable at best.
Someone needs to tell them, it is as strong as the weakest component.
They beef up springs, frames, axle housings and continue to overload the heck out of their trucks/busses.
I do agree, it is amazing what they can do with what they have. Some of those lathes have a huge wear pattern on the ways.


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## markba633csi (Nov 24, 2022)

It's amazing what the people of India do.
Just watched a cool film called "My name is salt"  about families who travel to the western desert each year and set up camp.
They dig up their Lister-type engine each season out of the ground having buried it the year before, then get it running and
use it to pump saline into large hand made pans.  They spend 8 months living out there, make 1500 tons of salt, sell it, then bury the
equipment and go back to the village till next year.  Highly recommended- I've seen it 3 times
-Mark


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 24, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> It's amazing what the people of India do.
> Just watched a cool film called "My name is salt"  about families who travel to the western desert each year and set up camp.
> They dig up their Lister-type diesel engine each season out of the ground having buried it the year before, then get it running and
> use it to pump saline into large hand made pans.  Fascinating- they spend 8 months living out there, make the salt, sell it, then bury the
> ...


Funny, I was just reading up on LIster engines this evening. I'd never heard of them before.
"Some CS engines ran practically continuously for decades in agricultural, industrial and electrical applications."


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## markba633csi (Nov 24, 2022)

I didn't know about them either- they have a special cold start feature that requires no glow plug or "hot bulb" ignition


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## Batmanacw (Nov 24, 2022)

Gentlemen,  the takeaway from these video is multifaceted. 

Yes they do a lot with next to nothing.

Yes they are quite skilled with next to nothing.

The most important takeaway from these videos is what they are repairing..... They fix things we throw away. 

As our country is being purposely starved of oil to transition us to "clean energy" we will find making, buying, and transporting spare parts to be much, much harder in the near future. It's already happening now. There will come a time when we are doing similar repairs in small shops all across the country. Things we deem disposable now. 

This is exactly why I built my hobby shop when i did. It's fun now but i can make and repair stuff and I've got enough basic supplies to do it for a long time. The only questionable issue is electricity and how bad the rolling black outs will get. 

We have the advantage of much better quality equipment in the hands of regular people. My measuring tools, if cared for, will last several generations. My machine tools will run for decades longer than I will live. We start from a position of much higher skill level. My buddy has 3 cnc mills in his garage.


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## Larry$ (Nov 25, 2022)

Batmanacw said:


> We start from a position of much higher skill level.


I think many of the people in those videos are highly skilled & problem solvers. Not just in metal working either. I watched a kid sitting in the dirt, riffling AK barrels with a twisted strap of metal repeatedly pulled through a wooden guide. The entire village was devoted to making AK riffles with only the crudest of worn out tools. 

Trucks, busses, mopeds, trains so overloaded that they must surely require lots of repairs. Luckily there are craftsmen that can.  Some of those places have huge import taxes that make it even more difficult to get new equipment and factory parts. Old worn out engines puffing smoke, smog so thick you can't see across the street.  Feel lucky to live in the western countries!


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## taiwanluthiers (Nov 25, 2022)

Batmanacw said:


> Gentlemen,  the takeaway from these video is multifaceted.
> 
> Yes they do a lot with next to nothing.
> 
> ...


But we have the choice to not wear loose traditional clothing while working around dangerous machines, whereas maybe in Pakistan they have no choice, either the boss required it, or the country requires it (Islamic countries are not known for personal freedom). We have the choice to use the right kind of materials for its application, for example not use cast iron to make crankshafts.

Edit: Towards the end of the gear video there's a guy sitting on the gear chatting with the shaper operator which is completely unnecessary and dangerous.


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## Firstram (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> Edit: Towards the end of the gear video there's a guy sitting on the gear chatting with the shaper operator which is completely unnecessary and dangerous.


He’s learning how to use the shaper!


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## Batmanacw (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> But we have the choice to not wear loose traditional clothing while working around dangerous machines, whereas maybe in Pakistan they have no choice, either the boss required it, or the country requires it (Islamic countries are not known for personal freedom). We have the choice to use the right kind of materials for its application, for example not use cast iron to make crankshafts.
> 
> Edit: Towards the end of the gear video there's a guy sitting on the gear chatting with the shaper operator which is completely unnecessary and dangerous.


My point sailed right over your head.


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## Firstram (Nov 25, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> It's amazing what the people of India do.
> Just watched a cool film called "My name is salt"  about families who travel to the western desert each year and set up camp.
> They dig up their Lister-type engine each season out of the ground having buried it the year before, then get it running and
> use it to pump saline into large hand made pans.  They spend 8 months living out there, make 1500 tons of salt, sell it, then bury the
> ...


Awesome film. I can’t imagine leaving such an important piece of equipment buried in salt water!


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## Ischgl99 (Nov 25, 2022)

They make serviceable parts, maybe not to our standards, but their entire country is based on getting the job done.  I don’t fault them for doing what it takes to keep their country running, I would rather have a part today that will keep me running for the next year over waiting a month or more to get one that will last 5 years.  I do cringe seeing the loose clothing they wear, but it wasn’t that long ago that German factories had beer vending machines and sold beer in their cafeterias to workers on their breaks.  I personally worked in several breweries in Germany during my training where the plant workers brought us a pitcher of beer during breaks while we were working on their machines, so are we really that much better than them?  



taiwanluthiers said:


> We have the choice to use the right kind of materials for its application, for example not use cast iron to make crankshafts.



The ship crankshaft they used for the donor material is highly unlikely to be cast iron, most engines that size use forged steel that would be ideal for the compressor crank they made.


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## taiwanluthiers (Nov 25, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> They make serviceable parts, maybe not to our standards, but their entire country is based on getting the job done.  I don’t fault them for doing what it takes to keep their country running, I would rather have a part today that will keep me running for the next year over waiting a month or more to get one that will last 5 years.  I do cringe seeing the loose clothing they wear, but it wasn’t that long ago that German factories had beer vending machines and sold beer in their cafeterias to workers on their breaks.  I personally worked in several breweries in Germany during my training where the plant workers brought us a pitcher of beer during breaks while we were working on their machines, so are we really that much better than them?
> 
> 
> 
> The ship crankshaft they used for the donor material is highly unlikely to be cast iron, most engines that size use forged steel that would be ideal for the compressor crank they made.


Yea I wasn't really talking about the compressor crankshaft, but there is another video where they basically threw scrap steel into a pot, melt it, then poured it into a mold to make a cast crankshaft. It machines like cast iron too.


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## Ischgl99 (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> Yea I wasn't really talking about the compressor crankshaft, but there is another video where they basically threw scrap steel into a pot, melt it, then poured it into a mold to make a cast crankshaft. It machines like cast iron too.


I didn’t realize you were talking about a different video.  I have no idea if they control what scrap material goes into the melt, it does look like they throw whatever they have in there.  There are cast iron crankshafts, so that is not necessarily bad, but I agree with you in that case you might not really know what you are getting.


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## taiwanluthiers (Nov 25, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I didn’t realize you were talking about a different video.  I have no idea if they control what scrap material goes into the melt, it does look like they throw whatever they have in there.  There are cast iron crankshafts, so that is not necessarily bad, but I agree with you in that case you might not really know what you are getting.


I never knew there are cast iron crankshaft, I just figure cast iron is too brittle to work as crankshaft.


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## Janderso (Nov 25, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> I've seen quite a few impressive videos. This one especially so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's incredible.
Now, I don't know much about cast iron production, but my assumption is quality cast iron would not include wheel barrow frames, kitchen appliances, washing machines etc.
The long term wear of that gear may be compromised.
Nice shaper, I bet it gets a workout.


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## Ischgl99 (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> I never knew there are cast iron crankshaft, I just figure cast iron is too brittle to work as crankshaft.


Lower end crankshafts can be cast iron, a step above that is cast steel, then you get into forged cranks for the higher performance engines.  You wouldn’t want a cast iron crank in a Corvette, but a low speed engine that doesn’t have high loads could be just fine with cast iron.


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## taiwanluthiers (Nov 25, 2022)

I know in steel mills they do throw scrap steel into the furnace, but I don't know how they make sure the final alloy is to spec and not contain stray elements, as there are many different type of steel with varying levels of chromium, manganese, molybdenum, etc. and last thing you want is some steel with the wrong kind of impurities in it.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 25, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Now, I don't know much about cast iron production, but my assumption is quality cast iron would not include wheel barrow frames, kitchen appliances, washing machines etc.


The use of steel in the scrap helps control the carbon content.


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## stupoty (Nov 25, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> They make serviceable parts, maybe not to our standards, but their entire country is based on getting the job done.  I don’t fault them for doing what it takes to keep their country running, I would rather have a part today that will keep me running for the next year over waiting a month or more to get one that will last 5 years.  I do cringe seeing the loose clothing they wear, but it wasn’t that long ago that German factories had beer vending machines and sold beer in their cafeterias to workers on their breaks.  I personally worked in several breweries in Germany during my training where the plant workers brought us a pitcher of beer during breaks while we were working on their machines, so are we really that much better than them?
> 
> 
> 
> The ship crankshaft they used for the donor material is highly unlikely to be cast iron, most engines that size use forged steel that would be ideal for the compressor crank they made.


This is a good example of using some sort of high grade scrap of a known grade for a part, they are forging the item from chunks of old boat chain.

Stu


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## Larry$ (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> for example not use cast iron to make crankshafts.


I believe that cast iron has been widely used for crankshafts, at least in the past. Ford did. 
"Most cast iron crankshafts have a tensile strength in the 65,000-80,000 psi range. Some companies, including Scat, will mix in graphite with its cast iron cranks to improved fatigue resistance. Nodular iron crankshafts raise the bar slightly, offering a tensile strength closer to the 100,000 psi range."


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## taiwanluthiers (Nov 25, 2022)

Larry$ said:


> I believe that cast iron has been widely used for crankshafts, at least in the past. Ford did.
> "Most cast iron crankshafts have a tensile strength in the 65,000-80,000 psi range. Some companies, including Scat, will mix in graphite with its cast iron cranks to improved fatigue resistance. Nodular iron crankshafts raise the bar slightly, offering a tensile strength closer to the 100,000 psi range."


Yea not sure the cast iron they use though, as they just take whatever they can find and throw it into the pot.

So if you throw scrap steel of varying composition into a furnace how do you get stuff like chromium, vanadium, etc. out? I guess you can lower carbon content by throwing in mild steel but how would you know what's in scrap?


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## strantor (Nov 25, 2022)

I watch those videos all the time. I find them highly entertaining and every once in a while I learn something new. But why do they all sound like minions?






Before you give the apparent "obvious" answer ("because the videos are sped up") go watch some more of them. A lot of them are filmed at 1X speed and the people *still* sound like that. I know Indian and Pakistani people and that's not how they sound. I suspect there is some cultural thing or trend over there, where people just _expect_ these videos to sound like that. It's as if they were to upload a video where folks' voices sounded normal, it wouldn't get "likes" or something. Social media does weird things to people. People over there probably wonder if American women's lips are really like they see in "duck face" selfies.


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## Ischgl99 (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> I know in steel mills they do throw scrap steel into the furnace, but I don't know how they make sure the final alloy is to spec and not contain stray elements, as there are many different type of steel with varying levels of chromium, manganese, molybdenum, etc. and last thing you want is some steel with the wrong kind of impurities in it.


They sample the steel at various points to make sure the chemistry is correct before releasing it for casting.  This article is a good description of how it’s done.









						Choosing the Best Metals Analysis Method for EAF Steel Manufacturing
					

EAF steel manufacturing requires a number of metal analysis methods. This article details which technique is best for each stage.




					www.azom.com


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## taiwanluthiers (Nov 25, 2022)

strantor said:


> I watch those videos all the time. I find them highly entertaining and every once in a while I learn something new. But why do they all sound like minions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's entirely possible that the reason they talk like that is that their voices have been changed for privacy reasons...


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## Larry$ (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> as they just take whatever they can find and throw it into the pot.


Getting it done is probably more important to them than optimizing the material. 
Maybe have a spectrographic analysis machine in the back room? But I'll go with the git her done idea.


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## stupoty (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> Yea not sure the cast iron they use though, as they just take whatever they can find and throw it into the pot.
> 
> So if you throw scrap steel of varying composition into a furnace how do you get stuff like chromium, vanadium, etc. out? I guess you can lower carbon content by throwing in mild steel but how would you know what's in scrap?



They do "hammer" testing to pre qualify the iron scrap in this one


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## strantor (Nov 25, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> It's entirely possible that the reason they talk like that is that their voices have been changed for privacy reasons...


Fair enough, I hadn't considered that. I would however expect to see blurred faces too, if that were the case.


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## 7milesup (Nov 25, 2022)

Ultradog MN said:


> I'll bet they don't have adult kids living in the basement playing video games all day.
> Hard work and risk taking builds character - something a lot of 1st world kids don't have.


Boy, you are right there.  These kids in India and Pakistan usually don't have basements.  Heck, a lot of them don't have homes, either.  I bet that will build some character. Pooping in the streets and scavenging for food is an incredible character builder, and then they can watch their Dad get killed at work due to zero safety practices.  
Yeahhhh, that character building you speak of, no thanks.


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## atunguyd (Nov 26, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> It's entirely possible that the reason they talk like that is that their voices have been changed for privacy reasons...


I seriously doubt that. From my experience living here in Africa, people working all day just to afford food for that day are not bothered by privacy and other western concerns like what pronoun you use to address them. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Earl (Nov 26, 2022)

A wise man once told me "It ain't the arrows, it's the Indian."   Most of those guys are tremendous machinists to do what they do with what they have.   I doubt that there are a lot of accidents.   They can't afford them!   They pay attention to what they are doing.   Think about it.   How many accidents have you had that should have been prevented but you were distracted.   I have certainly had my share.


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## Janderso (Nov 26, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> Yea not sure the cast iron they use though, as they just take whatever they can find and throw it into the pot.
> 
> So if you throw scrap steel of varying composition into a furnace how do you get stuff like chromium, vanadium, etc. out? I guess you can lower carbon content by throwing in mild steel but how would you know what's in scrap?


Exactly,
If the steel source is from giant chain links at least the brew has quality steel.
I found this,
”individual links are made from high carbon steel and and heat treated high carbon steel.


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## Janderso (Nov 26, 2022)

atunguyd said:


> I seriously doubt that. From my experience living here in Africa, people working all day just to afford food for that day are not bothered by privacy and other western concerns like what pronoun you use to address them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


I was in Haiti in the early 80’s on business. The wage was $3 a day, this went to feed the families.
Things were bad then but now it’s even more of a hell hole.


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## Janderso (Nov 26, 2022)

Earl said:


> A wise man once told me "It ain't the arrows, it's the Indian."   Most of those guys are tremendous machinists to do what they do with what they have.   I doubt that there are a lot of accidents.   They can't afford them!   They pay attention to what they are doing.   Think about it.   How many accidents have you had that should have been prevented but you were distracted.   I have certainly had my share.


Earl,
I was telling my son about these videos yesterday. I said the same thing, imagine what these guys could do if they had a proper shop with good equipment.


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## markba633csi (Nov 26, 2022)

They'd probably have to sprinkle some dirt around to make it feel lived in


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## CJ5Dave (Nov 26, 2022)

Gonna mark “Made in Pakistan” tools off my Christmas list.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 26, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> I didn't know about them either- they have a special cold start feature that requires no glow plug or "hot bulb" ignition


I serviced a single cylinder Lister driving a 4,000 psi water blaster for a couple years when i was in my 20’s. I never had to do many repairs, mostly oil changes, fuel filter changes and carbon scraping. The engine had a cadence you could dance to


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## JohnDB (Nov 26, 2022)

Those guys are cobblers...it's done by father teaching sons or uncles teaching nephews how to do this stuff.  Nobody outside the family is taught how to do anything.... ever.... so you can have job security.  

And since learning from family members is usually the worst way to learn anything....the true technical skills needed are not passed down.  Those machines represent a major portion of an annual salary if not more than a years salary.  Measuring devices?  Not happening.   Reading a print?  Rudimentary skills at best....if at all.  

Of course they have accidents....of course people lose fingers and arms and eyes....they aren't showing those people in pictures.  

I once worked with an Egyptian electrician working here... the working conditions he described and the attitude of "disposable" crew doing the work are criminal in the western world.  It's not often we have people die at work from workplace accidents...for him it was normal watching people dying and obtain severe injuries every day on a job.  

There's a difference between cobblers and professionals.  India and Pakistan have real economic issues.  Educations in these places are expensive...and nobody really has to go to school if they don't want to or parents are too poor to pay for it.


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## Cadillac STS (Nov 26, 2022)

Pakistan has nuclear weapons, highly sophisticated science and technology. 

Those videos are amazing and what makes good YouTube but there likely are a lot of high standard job shops for things that really matter and quality manufacturing plants as well as the stuff they show.

Still got to wonder why someone doesn’t bring in a few containers of newer manual machines.  Bring them into the 1960s at least!


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## JohnDB (Nov 26, 2022)

Cadillac STS said:


> Pakistan has nuclear weapons, highly sophisticated science and technology.
> 
> Those videos are amazing and what makes good YouTube but there likely are a lot of high standard job shops for things that really matter and quality manufacturing plants as well as the stuff they show.
> 
> Still got to wonder why someone doesn’t bring in a few containers of newer manual machines.  Bring them into the 1960s at least!


Class system there....you are rich or poor....not much in the way of middle class.


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## Ultradog MN (Nov 27, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Boy, you are right there.  These kids in India and Pakistan usually don't have basements.  Heck, a lot of them don't have homes, either.  I bet that will build some character. Pooping in the streets and scavenging for food is an incredible character builder, and then they can watch their Dad get killed at work due to zero safety practices.
> Yeahhhh, that character building you speak of, no thanks.



Is this a game of good, old fashioned hyperbole?
No matter, I can play that game...
And mention those fatherless man-boy basement dwellers, with their soft hands and soft hearts and soft intellects,  who've never held a job, failed even  in our dumbed down educational system, insist you use the right pronouns when you address them, are dependent on their  parents and their prescriptions to ritalin or adderal and who despite being coddled in the most cushy society ever have no God, no hope, no motivation and are perpetually angry because life is so "unfair".
On the other hand, those Pakistani workers that you sneer at, though it is true they are very backward, have  hope, morals, a skill and the drive to to create a better life for themselves, their families and their nation.
Who are you going to put Your money on?
Basement Boy and his ilk  or the man who till he was killed in an industrial accident, was striving for Something - namely, the improvement of his lot, the lot of his family and the lot of his society?


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## strantor (Nov 27, 2022)

Ultradog MN said:


> Is this a game of good, old fashioned hyperbole?
> No matter, I can play that game...
> And mention those fatherless man-boy basement dwellers, with their soft hands and soft hearts and soft intellects,  who've never held a job, failed even  in our dumbed down educational system, insist you use the right pronouns when you address them, are dependent on their  parents and their prescriptions to ritalin or adderal and who despite being coddled in the most cushy society ever have no God, no hope, no motivation and are perpetually angry because life is so "unfair".
> On the other hand, those Pakistani workers that you sneer at, though it is true they are very backward, have  hope, morals, a skill and the drive to to create a better life for themselves, their families and their nation.
> ...


Yeah it sucks being the product of a nation-wide failed social experiment and then be criticized by the very people who conducted it. I'm sure nothing said by a younger person would hold any water so here's something from an older person:






"Nobody will have the fun I had" and "nobody will have the opportunity I had" resound pretty strongly with me.

I'm proud to be none of the things you listed, and that pride is amplified by the knowledge that I managed to be as successful as my parents and grandparents despite having the world that was laid out for me before my arrival be a not-very-funny parody of the world they had laid out for them before their arrival. I worry about what kind of opportunities my kids and grandkids will have though. It's only getting worse and I feel almost guilty passing down my work ethic when I can't see that it will make my progeny anything other than better made parts in the machine of their own oppression.

My 16 y/o daughter has a job and I think the only reason why, is because she knows it makes me proud. And that makes me sad. Because between work and school she puts in 60-70 hours/week and for what?

She is a child and already on the grind, and her job doesn't offer her the same freedom that my high-school job offered me. When I was in high school, my job bought me a truck, insurance, gas, and I had some left over for fun. Since then minimum wage went up 10 cents while the price of gas went up 400%, the price of used cars went up at least 200%, and the price of everything else went up over 60%. She can't save money without a job and a way to get there. She can't afford a car payment. I bought her a car so she could get to work, and occasionally I have to give her money for gas (to get to work) too. "Participation trophies," if you will. But what choice is there? Do I just ignore reality and bang the "get off your ass, save up your money" drum that's been banged over my head since I was her age?

Imagine working your tail off to get ahead, only to fall further behind, no matter what you do. Maybe then the appeal of sitting in a basement will, while not being totally justifiable, at least make a little more sense.

I was able to find success by ignoring the advice of my elders who all urged me to go to college. My parents, high school counselors, pretty much everyone. They said it didn't matter what I go for, as long as I get that degree, my future would be secure. I can't take credit for being any wiser than they were; the truth is I was a rebellious turd who was determined not to conform even at my own detriment. It was pure luck that I was born at that time with that character flaw.


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## pontiac428 (Nov 27, 2022)

Well, you wouldn't have to worry about your daughter in Pakistan, you'd be whistling your way to the bank to cash your dowry by now, and she'd be a man's property for life.  

I study people's jobs for a living, looking at what makes them sick or broken.  I've looked at everything from explosives handling to naval ship rebuilding.  One thing is for sure, our work is cleaner- but it's also a thousand times more costly, and it creeps unsustainably slow.  It's fascinating to watch these guys make a meaningful part out of so little, and carry it out so quickly.  I don't want to know how young they were when they went completely deaf, or who takes care of them if they lose their eyesight.  But the forged axles they're making here out of what looks like railcar running gear (surely colonial salvage) end up looking like serviceable parts in the end.  I don't know how they calibrate their eyes, but there are no apparent numbers involved.  A chalk line is what, .200" thick?


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## strantor (Nov 27, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Well, you wouldn't have to worry about your daughter in Pakistan, you'd be whistling your way to the bank to cash your dowry by now, and she'd be a man's property for life.


Excellent perspective. My "first world problems" rant was ironically placed in the least appropriate thread possible.


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## Jubil (Nov 27, 2022)

My initial thought was; these videos have to be faked and still not convinced that parts are not. They do amazing things with rudimentary tools, that’s for sure.
I sometimes think about how things used to be regarding safety. Yes we have come a long way. Here is a link to an article I came across. https://workforce.com/news/playing-it-safe-a-look-at-workplace-safety-during-the-roaring-20s-and-now.
 My beloved country became an industrial powerhouse, but not without the sacrifices of workers. We all have heard/read of some very civilized nations that worked children for long hours under deplorable conditions. 
I don’t mean to scold or offend anyone just being thankful that we made it this far. 
Is this ok? Move or delete if not.

Chuck


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## Ultradog MN (Nov 27, 2022)

strantor said:


> ...I was able to find success by ignoring the advice of my elders...



I did not watch the video.
Ignoring the advice of our elders cuts both ways.
A lot of parents have been taught a can't do attitude and they pass it on to their kids.
I was a remodeling contractor for 35 years.
Retired two years ago.
So this fall when an old high school classmate asked if I would do a big remodel on a house they bought I told them no. She then asked if I would straw boss the job. Help them find contractors (I still know a few) keep a frequent eye on things and insure the job was done properly.
I agreed to that.
I had never met any of the workers before.
The carpenter was about 30 and self employed. He was good. Even taught this old dog a few tricks.
He had another job in progress and would come evenings and weekends to work on my friends' house. He learned the trade from his dad.
The plumber was 22 and a 2nd year apprentice and already knew his stuff. The master plumber stopped by a couple of times and we talked about this and that. He said the kid was good and all he usually  needed to do was inspect the work before the plumbing inspector got there.
Similar scenerio with the electrician.
He was 26 and had just made journeyman and was proud of that. He said they had all the work they wanted - and more.
He looked to get his master's license some day and go out on his own.
The plumber and electrician kids (they were kids to me) didn't go to college. They went to 2 year votechs.
The carpenter and his wife - who also worked -owned their own home. Well, them and the mortgage company...
All of them drove good pickups. Not new but 4 -6 years old.
They were more successful than I was at their ages. 
I thought they worked hard and had good attitudes.
And maybe, just maybe they "were able to find success by ignoring the advice of their elders"
who might have tried to imbue them with bad ideas about the hopeless future they faced and the worthlessness of effort and hard work and the unfairness they were up against.
I wish your daughter well.
I hope she learns the value of work as a thing "in and of itself".
And I really hope she doesn't inherit the defeatist attitude I detect in some of the replys to this thread.


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## strantor (Nov 27, 2022)

Ultradog MN said:


> I did not watch the video.
> Ignoring the advice of our elders cuts both ways.


Ha! Ok, touche!


Ultradog MN said:


> The carpenter was about 30 and self employed. [...]
> The plumber was 22 and a 2nd year apprentice and already knew his stuff. [...] the electrician. He was 26 and had just made journeyman and was proud of that. [...]
> They went to 2 year votechs.
> The carpenter and his wife - who also worked -owned their own home. Well, them and the mortgage company...
> ...


Same experience and observations here. I know several other successful people in my age group and they're all small business owners or have advanced through the trades. By "successful" I mean: own their own homes (have their own mortgages), drive decent reliable vehicles, and maybe have some "play money" for things like boats or deer leases. But they are the exception, not the rule.


Ultradog MN said:


> A lot of parents have been taught a can't do attitude and they pass it on to their kids.





Ultradog MN said:


> And maybe, just maybe they "were able to find success by ignoring the advice of their elders"
> 
> who might have tried to imbue them with bad ideas about the hopeless future they faced and the worthlessness of effort and hard work and the unfairness they were up against.
> I wish your daughter well.
> ...


I am successful because I am 100% a "can-do" type of person. What did I say to make you think otherwise? I am doing my best to instill that same mentality in my my kids. The other things I said are not what I practice or what I preach, but the reality I see in the world around me.  I am trying to groom my daughters to be what they will need to be to succeed in a more challenging environment than I experienced; never would I teach them victim mentality and that trying isn't worth it. But neither will I lie to them. They need to know what they're up against. I don't understand how my refusal to concede "my kids are growing up in the same land of milk and honey that my dad grew up in" and "if they just work hard and spend wisely everything will be fine (and if everything isn't fine it's their fault)" is tantamount to indoctrinating my kids into victimhood.

You have to be exceptional today to meet the standards of yesterday's ordinary. And the way things are headed, you will have to be beyond exceptional tomorrow to meet today's standards of ordinary. A lot of the people you grew up with, the ones who did "fine" but that's it, would probably be sitting in basements right now if they were born in the 80s or 90s.

We are devolving into a situation which is common many other places in the world, where several generations of family live together under the same roof. Right now it's just the fat antisocial 30-something manboy strawman playing Nintendo in mommy's garage who is getting all the attention, but that will change.

I don't _*need*_ you or anyone else to know or acknowledge what I'm up against or what my kids will be up against, but it sure would be cool. The perpetual judgement on obsolete criteria that we millennials face is really tiresome. Is it really that hard to see that the rules are different for us than they were for you?


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## 7milesup (Nov 27, 2022)

strantor said:


> Is it really that hard to see that the rules are different for us than they were for you?


This is spot on.


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## Janderso (Nov 27, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Well, you wouldn't have to worry about your daughter in Pakistan, you'd be whistling your way to the bank to cash your dowry by now, and she'd be a man's property for life.
> 
> I study people's jobs for a living, looking at what makes them sick or broken.  I've looked at everything from explosives handling to naval ship rebuilding.  One thing is for sure, our work is cleaner- but it's also a thousand times more costly, and it creeps unsustainably slow.  It's fascinating to watch these guys make a meaningful part out of so little, and carry it out so quickly.  I don't want to know how young they were when they went completely deaf, or who takes care of them if they lose their eyesight.  But the forged axles they're making here out of what looks like railcar running gear (surely colonial salvage) end up looking like serviceable parts in the end.  I don't know how they calibrate their eyes, but there are no apparent numbers involved.  A chalk line is what, .200" thick?


Any idea why they all crank down on the poor old three jaw chuck with a two foot extension?
They do that with the lathe tool hold down bolts as well. They are all mushroomed out and bent. = over torqued for no reason that I can see.


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## Batmanacw (Nov 27, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Any idea why they all crank down on the poor old three jaw chuck with a two foot extension?
> They do that with the lathe tool hold down bolts as well. They are all mushroomed out and bent. = over torqued for no reason that I can see.


The bolt threads are stretched and probably pretty hard to turn now.


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## Ultradog MN (Nov 28, 2022)

[[QUOTE="strantor, post: 997420, member: 20337"

you?
[/QUOTE]

Edit: I dislike the stupid software on this board!


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## strantor (Nov 28, 2022)

I'm not sure this was a safe repair and it doesn't look very straight, but the concept i thought was pretty clever.


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## great white (Nov 28, 2022)

strantor said:


> I'm not sure this was a safe repair and it doesn't look very straight, but the concept i thought was pretty clever.


As previously mentioned, in those places it's not about absolute accuracy, it's about getting whatever it is running again by whatever means possible. If it breaks again in a month or two, it gets repaired again.

We often forget in NA that much of the rest of the world doesn't always have the privilege/luxury of living at our standards. I'm grateful every day I was born where i was born....


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## Janderso (Nov 29, 2022)

strantor said:


> I'm not sure this was a safe repair and it doesn't look very straight, but the concept i thought was pretty clever.


Did you see one of the bushing mounts had been rewelded also?
It appears this part goes to a vehicle that may be overloaded or just fatigued beyond it's usable life.
I wouldn't want to go very fast in this vehicle as the part could cause catastrophic failure ending in loss of life or limb.
I must give the lathe operator 10 points for the creative way he was able to mount the part to the four jaw.


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