# Lathe Cutting Tools



## TXShelbyman (Jun 15, 2017)

What do most of you guys use on your lathe. Do you use tooling with inserts or do you grind your own tools? I've been out of machining for about 40 years and I know things have changed. I am trying to get back in the swing of it. Thanks!

Jeb Watts

Rong Fu mill clone
11" Sheldon lathe
6" Atlas lathe
Horizontal Atlas mill


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## mikey (Jun 15, 2017)

Welcome to HM, Jeb!

I use both HSS and inserted carbide on my 11" lathe; 90% of the time I use HSS. On older, slower lathes, I think HSS is a good choice but there are many who disagree. For your little Atlas, though, I would only use HSS because it lacks the rigidity, speed and power carbide requires.


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## T Bredehoft (Jun 16, 2017)

Hig Speed Steel, (HSS) is the way to learn cutting on a lathe. Inserted Carbide tooling is for professionals who must make time pay for the tooling. Its great if  you have lots of the same work, lots of horsepower, and little time. 
Learn to use HSS, you may never go to carbide, but if  you do you will have the experience to know what you want  when you need it.


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## BGHansen (Jun 16, 2017)

I use carbide inserts 99% of the time.  I have one QCTP tool holder with HSS mounted in case I'm doing an interrupted cut.  Also have a couple of very small diameter HSS boring bars with and without a 60 deg. point for threading or boring.  Just getting lazy in my old age as my bench grinders would require a 30 foot walk from the lathes to touch up a tool bit.

Like others above have mentioned, start with HSS and learn to grind/stone proper tool bits.  Then try some inserts.  The Arthur R. Warner company sells HSS inserts that may give you the best of both worlds.  Here's their web site and a snippy of their HSS inserts which should drop into the appropriate tool holder.  You can stone/grind these for resuse.  I don't have any of their products (yet), but have never read a negative comment about them.

The triangular "T" series are a good ones to get as there are many sources for the 5-piece carbide insert ('3' size) 1/2" or 5/8" shank sets of tool bits out there for under $40.  Shars, CDCOtools, etc.  That'll let you swap between HSS and carbide inserts to decide which way you want to go.  Or like most of us on the forum, buy both because too many options is always an option . . .

I buy my carbide inserts primarily off eBay.  Generally they can be found for about $1 each.  If you go the carbide insert route, do a search on eBay for the bit size/style you're after and dozens of matches will show up.  Had very good luck with the seller "zimi-hk" and others.

Bruce

http://www.arwarnerco.com/


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## Technical Ted (Jun 16, 2017)

I use HSS almost exclusively. The only time I use carbide is on a burnt edge or maybe a weld repair. My lathe is a 15" SB 1930's vintage so it uses slower speeds. For me, the type of tooling I would use would depend on a few things: the material, the OD, the rigidity of the machine, the set-up, etc. etc.. Also, in a lot of cases, HSS requires less HP from a machine (because of positive rake and better cutting). It's easy to tweak the grind on a tool for whatever you are doing and not so much for carbide...

Bottom line, it doesn't make much difference as long as you get the results you want/need and have the money to pay for it! 

Have fun re-discovering you hobby!
Ted


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## cascao (Jun 16, 2017)

I use most brazed carbide tip on steel and for aluminium HSS.


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## Buffalo20 (Jun 16, 2017)

I use carbide inserts about 95% of the time and with extreme rough or interrupted cuts, the last 5%, I use bonded carbide tool bits. The inserts I use range from about $1 each to about $25 each, their type is based on the material and type of cut. I buy the bonded carbide tool bits, by the box, usually at about $.25-$.50 each, which to me, makes them throw aways. I use them to get down to the point, where I can switch to insert tools, without ruining inserts.

I started out using HSS in my grandfather's shop and continued to use them, when I got machines of my own, I got angry, when in the middle of a cut, I had to regrind the tool, and having to reset to get the tool back to the original cutting position, inserts are much easier. I think the last time I rummaged through the HSS selection, was about 8-10 years ago, when I needed a piece of 1/4 in HSS stock, for one of the friends. I haven't used HSS in the last 15+ years.

The types and grades of carbide inserts available today, is unbelievable, compared to what was available 30-40 years ago. Inserts like the CCMT series, has changed the machining world, for about 15-20 of the local (home shop) maching guys I deal with on a regular basis.


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## wrmiller (Jun 16, 2017)

I only use carbide inserts on my 1340, and they work very well for me. Same on my previous SB1001 lathe. 

But according to a friend I do tend to turn at higher speeds than some folks do. Maybe that is why it works for me?


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## RJSakowski (Jun 16, 2017)

I use brazed carbide or HSS tools.  The primary reason is that I can dress/regrind tools which provides for very economical operation.


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## Splat (Jun 16, 2017)

I've been using 1/4" HSS bits with a Diamond Tool holder, which is a tangential type holder. I love it. Tool bits are easily found, cheap, and last seemingly forever. I was going to go with carbide inserts but couldn't justify the cost in a home shop. Also considered AR Warner's HSS inserts but I don't like the fact that they're the only place that has them so you're locked into them.  Check out a tangential holder. Amazing results.


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## Buffalo20 (Jun 16, 2017)

I have no doubt that Splat's success with the tangential style tool, has been excellent, but my venture down that path, was a gut wrenching disaster. About 6-8 years ago I bought a tangential tool, from a supplier, the tool came from Australia, first it took almost 4 months to get it, and my results went down hill from there. Cut quality was terrible, the tip needed constant sharpening, just extremely frustrating to deal with. They replace the tool twice, with absolutely no change in operation, they sent me, different and per-ground tool bits, still crap poor results. I tried many different speeds and feeds, 3 different brands of HSS tool bits and different cutting heights, no matter what I did, it looked like I used a hacksaw or blunt wood chisel, as a cutting tool.

I tried it on all of my lathes, a Atlas 12 x 54, a South Bend (both long gone) and my current 14 x 40 Jet, also tried it on a few of my friend's lathes, they got similar results to mine. I have a friend with a TOS lathe, who I believe, still has the tool in his shop, he tried it and said it was crap. Then again,  2 friends,  I have in Texas and Georgia, have them and love them. I have and neither did the supplier, have any idea of what was wrong.


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## Splat (Jun 16, 2017)

Jack, was that the Diamond version from Eccentric Engineering? I know they have changed the tool around a little but I believe it had to do with the angle of tool presentation. That sucks you had bad luck. I love mine.


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## mikey (Jun 16, 2017)

Buffalo20 said:


> I have no doubt that Splat's success with the tangential style tool, has been excellent, but my venture down that path, was a gut wrenching disaster. About 6-8 years ago I bought a tangential tool, from a supplier, the tool came from Australia, first it took almost 4 months to get it, and my results went down hill from there. Cut quality was terrible, the tip needed constant sharpening, just extremely frustrating to deal with. They replace the tool twice, with absolutely no change in operation, they sent me, different and per-ground tool bits, still crap poor results. I tried many different speeds and feeds, 3 different brands of HSS tool bits and different cutting heights, no matter what I did, it looked like I used a hacksaw or blunt wood chisel, as a cutting tool.
> 
> I tried it on all of my lathes, a Atlas 12 x 54, a South Bend (both long gone) and my current 14 x 40 Jet, also tried it on a few of my friend's lathes, they got similar results to mine. I have a friend with a TOS lathe, who I believe, still has the tool in his shop, he tried it and said it was crap. Then again,  2 friends,  I have in Texas and Georgia, have them and love them. I have and neither did the supplier, have any idea of what was wrong.



Odd. In all the comments I've seen about the Diamond tool holder sold by Baycom and the one from Eccentric Engineering, I've never seen a negative impression. It would be interesting to figure out why your experience was the exception.


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## Flyrod (Jun 17, 2017)

It is interesting to read that several people shy away from hss b/c of having to grind/re-grind

if hss is better for your application, can't you have the best of both worlds by using inserts that are made of hss and not carbide? - according to this clip:






they can be resharpened, come in every varity (like carbide inserts), are a lot cheaper, and have the benefits of hss as a material (where hss's pros are a benefit) and yet have the convenience of a quick turn of a screw and having a new perfectly ground edge and the luxury of not having to hand grind?

are there many out there that use inserts but made of hss rather than carbide?

is there some downside to hss inserts that make them undesirable? 

thanks


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## Ulma Doctor (Jun 17, 2017)

i vacillate between carbide insert tooling and hss, dependent on the job requirements or material.
insert tooling is very convenient and quick to use, but sometimes inserts break at the WRONG TIME  and can foul the work
i'd offer the suggestion of getting Inserts (both Carbide and HSS) and HSS blanks, so that you may make the comparison for yourself.
If you are turning some tougher materials, i'd also suggest 8%Cobalt HSS blanks , they are really useful.
HSS is generally very inexpensive can easily sharpen hundreds of times by hand on a bench grinder with common aluminum oxide wheels.
Carbide is generally more expensive will need Green Stone or a Diamond wheel to sharpen, then hone to best effectiveness. (an AlO3 wheel can sharpen carbide but it tears the wheel up due to the application force necessary to grind)


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## Flyrod (Jun 17, 2017)

thanks Mike - i am new it at this so forgive me if i am being slow

i thought the breaking issue was with carbide (and ceramic?) only and NOT HSS inserts, such that all of the convenience of an insert can be had w/o breakage and without being as expensive and being able to to sharpen the HSS insert? is that not correct?

even with all of that, it may be that you are saying (as many other threads have) that certain spots just require you to grind something special and you need an hss blank or blanks...this i get

but is the reason people are avoiding inserts (for those that are) b/c of the breakage and cost issue primarily? - if so, it seems that hss inserts should solve that...probably i am missing something

thanks!


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## mikey (Jun 17, 2017)

Flyrod said:


> It is interesting to read that several people shy away from hss b/c of having to grind/re-grind
> 
> if hss is better for your application, can't you have the best of both worlds by using inserts that are made of hss and not carbide?
> 
> ...



The inserted HSS tools from AR Warner are very nice, for the reasons you cited. However, they have the geometry of an inserted tool and therefore cut like an inserted tool and this is where I think a well-ground HSS tool has a significant advantage. I own the ARW set and rarely ever use them because my HSS tools easily outperform them, just as they outperform carbide on my lathe for most jobs. 

The problem with HSS tooling is that the geometry matters and you sort of need to understand how things work. Lots of guys try grinding HSS tools but they don't really have an appreciation for the geometry. When they try it, they find the tools don't cut much better than an inserted or brazed carbide tool so they come to prefer those carbide tools; I don't blame them, either. The downside to this is that many hobby shop carbide users have smaller, less powerful lathes that also lack the rigidity and speed to use carbide well and this limits what the lathe is really capable of. 

So, IMHO, if you just want to use your lathe then sharpened brazed carbide tools are a good starting point. If you wish to use inserted tip tools then I would go with an SCLCR/L tool holder that uses CCMT or CCGT inserts that work better than the old geometry that the ARW tools use. If your lathe is small and not really rigid or powerful then you are far better off learning to grind a good HSS tool, and the smaller and slower the lathe, the more important HSS tooling becomes.


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## Technical Ted (Jun 17, 2017)

One thing I didn't mention in my previous post is that I just plain enjoy grinding my own tool bits! My shop is a hobby shop and grinding my own cutting tools is part of my enjoyment. I get satisfaction from being able to sharpen bits, drill bits, etc.. Even after all these years I'm still trying to improve my skill. Grinding, then finishing off with a fine hone to get that really nice surface finish! Grinding threading tools and other geometries offer an even bigger challenge.

So, use whatever you enjoy using and have fun! 

Ted


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## Flyrod (Jun 17, 2017)

Mike thanks

i think i get it now - yes hss may not break like carbide and may be cheaper, but they come in a set, limited variety of cuts and so any insert set (carbide or hss) is more limited than hss blanks that you can grind any way you want

++++++++++++

as to whether i can use inserts if i wanted to, I have a Logan 11" lathe

my guess is that is in between "small and not really rigid or powerful" and a powerful, rigid beast

with that in mind, is there enough power and rigidity there to effectively use inserts?

thanks


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## mikey (Jun 17, 2017)

Flyrod said:


> with that in mind, is there enough power and rigidity there to effectively use inserts?



This is a difficult question to answer accurately because there are many factors involved. You have to understand that a inserted carbide tool also has geometry that is optimized for cutting conditions (speed, feed and depth of cut) most older lathes cannot meet. This is not to say the insert will not cut; it just won't cut as intended. On a short, rigid, high speed CNC lathe, they work extremely well. On a old, less rigid and slow lathe, they will still cut but they won't work as well. It's tempting to just leave it there because it is true ... sort of.

There is a lot you need to know about inserts before choosing and using inserts. There are literally thousands of them to choose from and each is optimized for a particular material and each has its own cutting conditions. All of them assume your machine can handle these cutting conditions, especially the required speed. The vast majority of inserts require speeds beyond what most older lathes can achieve, and the smaller the work and softer the material the faster the required speeds are. In addition, most inserts have chip breakers that require a certain depth of cut to work effectively. Add in the effect of the nose radius, which has a required depth of cut and feed rate to both rough and finish and the picture gets complicated. And we haven't even considered rake angles yet.

Add to this the fact that choosing an inserted carbide tool is not just about which tool you choose. It is also very much about how you use that tool. You need to understand the minimum depths of cut you can take and how the nose radius impacts on the cutting forces you deal with in every cut. Only then do you gain an appreciation for deflection and how this affects accuracy. If you doubt that deflection, nose radius, feed and speed have an impact, try taking 0.0005" off the diameter and see how accurate your cut is. And this applies whether your insert is carbide or HSS.

I am not saying you shouldn't use carbide or a HSS insert. I am saying that there is more to it than you think and you need to learn more before choosing if this is the route you go. Personally, I contacted Seco and asked questions before choosing the SCLCR tool and inserts I use, and I use them when I can meet the cutting conditions those tools require. That is, mostly largish pieces of harder steels. Otherwise, I use HSS tools that will cut well at the speeds and feeds my lathe can easily meet.

And if you think this is all complicated, wait until you try to figure out how to bore an accurate hole using inserted carbide boring bars.  

EDIT: I should add that your lathe was intended to use HSS tooling. It is rigid enough, has enough power and can run at the right speeds for HSS. The only problem with this is that you have to learn to grind a HSS tool. Luckily, this is not hard to do and will allow your lathe to work as it should.


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## Flyrod (Jun 17, 2017)

Thanks Mike - much appreciated


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## mikey (Jun 17, 2017)

Flyrod said:


> Thanks Mike - much appreciated



From your lengthy response, I presume I either discouraged you or confused you, or both. I didn't intend either one. I, too, have an 11" lathe but it is tight, has a 2HP motor, runs at a max speed of 2200 rpm and is very rigid for its size. Your Logan is a good lathe and it will work well for you with the right tool.

Don't be discouraged. Try some brazed carbide tools. Sharpen them, put a small nose radius on them and you will be surprised how well they work. They can run fast or slow, although faster is better. I really like brazed carbide tools from Micro 100 but many guys use tools from China with good results. This will allow you to learn to use your lathe and maybe even devote some time to learning about grinding HSS tools.

If you are simply curious and have the money, I can tell you that a 3/8" SCLCR tool holder that takes 22.51 or 22.52 CCMT and CCGT inserts will work on your lathe. You will not get the speed you need for them to work as well as they can but they will work for you, at least enough for you to form your own impression of them. 

Good luck, and remember that there are many other opinions out there. I may be totally wrong!


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## Flyrod (Jun 17, 2017)

On the contrary, you convinced me to go hss blanks and learn to grind - as you say: (i) that is what the lathe was designed to do; (ii) the lathe cannot take full advantage of inserts

So I'll give that a try - I think i will buy a few tools already ground and learn grinding by touching them up

you have been very helpful - thanks Mike


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## TXShelbyman (Jun 17, 2017)

Thanks for all the input guys! I have a ton of HSS blanks. I have been watching videos on grinding tools so I will probably go that route for a while. I will need to get a machinist protractor to I can get all my angles correct. I have always just eyeballed the angles, and getting mixed results. I think that grinding my own tooling will give me more satisfaction knowing I ground it correctly myself. (or ground it wrong) I guess it is all part of the learning process. Later I will probably try an insert. Thanks again.


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## mikey (Jun 17, 2017)

Flyrod, TXShelbyman, I wrote a thread on grinding HSS tools here: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/how-to-grind-a-hss-turning-tool.52581/

If you can grind a flat spot on the end of a square piece of HSS three times in a row then you can grind a lathe tool. Its not quite on the level of walking and chewing gum at the same time but its close. Actually, grinding the tool is not the trick; picking the right angles to use for each flat is the trick. Read the articles I linked to at the end of the original post and it will give you some direction. 

If you have questions, post to that thread I linked to above and I or someone else will try to answer them.

Mikey


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## Flyrod (Jun 17, 2017)

thank you


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## Technical Ted (Jun 18, 2017)

My suggestion for anyone wanting to learn how to sharpen HSS tool bits is simple: Just jump in with both feet and start doing it! 

Try different grinds until you get the tool to cut/perform the way you want. If it doesn't work, just do some more experimenting. You've got nothing to lose and a lot to gain. There definitely is a feeling of satisfaction grinding your own bits and drills. Before you know it, anyone can get to the point where you will just start eye balling things and it will become quicker and quicker to touch bits up.

Another thing to play with is where your tool is on center. I like to run mine just a little bit above center (except for threading, tapers, etc. where the bit needs to be right on center), but YMMV and you'll have to experiment with your individual tool and lathe.

Have fun!
Ted


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## Buffalo20 (Jun 18, 2017)

Its good to read everyones opinion, on a topic, read their responses, then let it soak in, even if your experience has been totally different. One of the reason I joined the site, was to view how other people do a certain job or procedure, to see if it differs from your way and then determine if your way or theirs is better. Whether you agree or don't agree, with their post, to me its still viable information, it might not work for you now, but might spark an idea, at a later time.


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## Cavediver (Jun 18, 2017)

mikey said:


> Flyrod, TXShelbyman, I wrote a thread on grinding HSS tools here: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/how-to-grind-a-hss-turning-tool.52581/
> 
> If you can grind a flat spot on the end of a square piece of HSS three times in a row then you can grind a lathe tool. Its not quite on the level of walking and chewing gum at the same time but its close. Actually, grinding the tool is not the trick; picking the right angles to use for each flat is the trick. Read the articles I linked to at the end of the original post and it will give you some direction.
> 
> ...



There are a ton of great tips in that thread.  For me, one of the best takeaways was the use of wood push blocks.  This tip helped me take my 10 facet sides down to one or two, giving me a more consistent grind and sharper edges, and it makes honing much easier.


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## mikey (Jun 18, 2017)

Technical Ted said:


> My suggestion for anyone wanting to learn how to sharpen HSS tool bits is simple: Just jump in with both feet and start doing it!
> 
> Try different grinds until you get the tool to cut/perform the way you want. If it doesn't work, just do some more experimenting. You've got nothing to lose and a lot to gain. There definitely is a feeling of satisfaction grinding your own bits and drills. Before you know it, anyone can get to the point where you will just start eye balling things and it will become quicker and quicker to touch bits up.
> 
> ...



Ted, glad you enjoy grinding tools. If you would like to share how they look, post some pics, either here or in my thread I linked to. Many of us enjoy seeing what other guys are doing and then hearing how those tools work for them.


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## mikey (Jun 18, 2017)

Cavediver said:


> There are a ton of great tips in that thread.  For me, one of the best takeaways was the use of wood push blocks.  This tip helped me take my 10 facet sides down to one or two, giving me a more consistent grind and sharper edges, and it makes honing much easier.



Yup, stupid piece of wood can make a  big difference in how your tools turn out. I bet I had more facets than you when I started out and, like you, that wood push block helped a lot.


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## cascao (Jun 19, 2017)

Best tip I can give you:
Test diffrent tools, speeds and materials and see what fit you and your machine best. Results will not vary much from what has beeing told here but you will earn valuable experience. Have done it and learned a lot.

Carbide x HSS





Steel grades





Plastics


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## Nogoingback (Jun 19, 2017)

Flyrod said:


> It is interesting to read that several people shy away from hss b/c of having to grind/re-grind
> 
> if hss is better for your application, can't you have the best of both worlds by using inserts that are made of hss and not carbide? - according to this clip:
> 
> ...



Fly, all these guys are giving great advice, but I'd like to put in a plug for the Arthur Warner tooling, which is what I've been using.  I've only had a lathe for a few years, so my experience is limited, but I 
chose the Warner tools because it was an easy way to get started turning stuff without having to learn tool grinding first.  I plan on learning to grind my own tools at some point, but until 
then I've been able to make a bunch of parts and concentrate on learning some of the basic skills involved in using the lathe itself.  They may not be the best tools around, but they work and for the stuff
I've made I've gotten good results with them.


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## Buffalo20 (Jun 19, 2017)

I guess I've never saw/seen the AR Warner appeal, for what their insert cost, I can buy 3 or more carbide inserts. I have bought some of the HSS inserts, I never got any better cut finish or cut depth over carbide, to me it was just like using a dull POOR quality carbide insert. As I said about the tangential tool, what works well for Person A, may or may not work for Person B or C.


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## Nogoingback (Jun 21, 2017)

Buffalo20 said:


> I guess I've never saw/seen the AR Warner appeal, for what their insert cost, I can buy 3 or more carbide inserts. I have bought some of the HSS inserts, I never got any better cut finish or cut depth over carbide, to me it was just like using a dull POOR quality carbide insert. As I said about the tangential tool, what works well for Person A, may or may not work for Person B or C.



Buffalo, I think what I was trying to suggest is that the Warner stuff is an easy way for the OP to get up and running.  In the long run, and with experience he can always switch to carbide.  As you know,
there are an almost unlimited number of carbide inserts to choose from, which offers a great many possibilities to the experienced machinist, and great confusion to someone just getting started.  And 
the OP has both an 11" Sheldon, which might be suitable for carbide, and a 6" Atlas which isn't, which suggests he would need two sets of tools if he chose carbide for the Sheldon. 
As for cost, the Warner inserts cost about 7 bucks, but can be sharpened many times.  This might be more expensive than what you get carbide for, but it doesn't seem like a deal killer.


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## Flyrod (Jun 21, 2017)

Nogoingback said:


> Fly, all these guys are giving great advice, but I'd like to put in a plug for the Arthur Warner tooling, which is what I've been using.  I've only had a lathe for a few years, so my experience is limited, but I
> chose the Warner tools because it was an easy way to get started turning stuff without having to learn tool grinding first.  I plan on learning to grind my own tools at some point, but until
> then I've been able to make a bunch of parts and concentrate on learning some of the basic skills involved in using the lathe itself.  They may not be the best tools around, but they work and for the stuff
> I've made I've gotten good results with them.



Thanks to all who took the time to respond to the OP and to some of my hijacking - it's all very helpful


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## Buffalo20 (Jun 21, 2017)

Nogoingback said:


> Buffalo, I think what I was trying to suggest is that the Warner stuff is an easy way for the OP to get up and running.  In the long run, and with experience he can always switch to carbide.  As you know,
> there are an almost unlimited number of carbide inserts to choose from, which offers a great many possibilities to the experienced machinist, and great confusion to someone just getting started.  And
> the OP has both an 11" Sheldon, which might be suitable for carbide, and a 6" Atlas which isn't, which suggests he would need two sets of tools if he chose carbide for the Sheldon.
> As for cost, the Warner inserts cost about 7 bucks, but can be sharpened many times.  This might be more expensive than what you get carbide for, but it doesn't seem like a deal killer.




On another site, someone said I needed to "HONE" the HSS inserts, the last thing I'm going to do is buy an insert and have to hone before I can use it. To me that like sharpening a new saw blade before using it or sharpening a new end mill before I use it. If I have to do that, why buy new at all?? But again thats me, if it works for others, go for it. I've gotten to the point, where I know what works for me and try to stick to it. I do try different things from time to time, but almost always go back to what I've been using.

One of the new things that did work out was the Glanze boring bars and smaller lathe tools, I got out of India. 

Another was some sample HSS end mills, sourced out of Korea. They were meant to be supplied, to suppliers, so they can be private label them, they just have the size and Korea printed on the shank. I just ordered 80 of them, 5 each of each size, in both 2 and 4 flute (center cutting), from 1/8" to 9/16". everything up to 3/8"  has a 3/8" shank, the rest have 1/2" shanks.

The intent of my posts, are not geared to say anyone who uses HSS lathe tools are wrong, its just for me, carbide has worked better. I sometimes question the almost quasi-religious devotion to HSS, that some seem to possess, but if it works for you, thats all that matter. I've run carbide for about 20-25 years, successfully, on the (2) South Bend, the (2) Atlas, the Logan and the Jet lathes. At times I question things, its all part of my learning curve.


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## benmychree (Jun 21, 2017)

Nogoingback said:


> Fly, all these guys are giving great advice, but I'd like to put in a plug for the Arthur Warner tooling, which is what I've been using.  I've only had a lathe for a few years, so my experience is limited, but I
> chose the Warner tools because it was an easy way to get started turning stuff without having to learn tool grinding first.  I plan on learning to grind my own tools at some point, but until
> then I've been able to make a bunch of parts and concentrate on learning some of the basic skills involved in using the lathe itself.  They may not be the best tools around, but they work and for the stuff
> I've made I've gotten good results with them.


The only reason for HSS inserts to exist is for their use in multi tool holders in production machinery where they would be used where a carbide tool is run on a large diameter of the part being machined at its proper cutting speed, and the HSS tool is cutting on a smaller diameter at its allowable cutting speed; a carbide tool would not do well on the smaller diameter, as the speed being too low tends to cause premature failure of the cutting edge due, I think to chip flow dynamics.


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## mikey (Jun 21, 2017)

I may be wrong but I think AR Warner is filling a niche in the market with their tooling. The explosion of cheap lathes from China has enabled a lot of hobbyists to dabble in metal working and I think ARW is aiming at this niche market. Their tools allow a new guy to jump right into using his lathe, without having to learn to grind tools or deal with choosing carbide inserts. The inserts are easily sharpened so while they may initially cost more than a carbide insert, they last much, much longer. They also cut well at the lower speeds most hobby lathes can run at. Accordingly, it isn't surprising that, with few exceptions, the experiences with AR Warner tools are almost uniformly positive. 

Tangential tools/tool holders occupy a similar niche - easy to use, tool bits are cheap and it takes little to no skill to sharpen a tool. Again, experiences have been almost universally positive, especially from newer users who just want to learn to use their smaller, less rigid, less powerful and slower hobby lathes.

Personally, I think its good that these tools are out there. Its good for the hobby and its good for the users. We all know that carbide has its place; it's the leader in pro shops for a good reason. In fact, if you survey the HM membership, I would bet carbide is far and away the leader in tools used. 

Every tool type has its uses. The trick is to know when to use the right tool for the job. Our new guys haven't had time to figure it out yet but I have faith that in time, they will.


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## Flyrod (Jun 21, 2017)

mikey said:


> Our new guys haven't had time to figure it out yet but I have faith that in time, they will.



time...and generosity to share your experience from guys like you and those on this board

with thanks


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## Splat (Nov 19, 2018)

Necroposting...  I seriously considered the AR Warner HSS inserts and tools. The thing that I don't like, and maybe this is worrying about nothing..yet!.., is Warner is the only place you can get HSS indexable inserts. I've looked around, admittedly a few years ago, and could not find anyone else offering them. I don't like being locked in like that and if Warner goes OOB then where you gonna get new HSS inserts? That and the fact it's so easy for a newbie to get great results quickly is the reason I got the tangential tool holder (TTH). HSS blanks can be found easily and sharpening them for the TTH takes a quick minute. The only downside is having to check height after reinstalling tool blank after sharpening but that takes seconds.


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## Dabbler (Nov 20, 2018)

I'd like to add that there are positive rake carbide tools (mine is from Kinnemetal, @ 11$ per insert) that requires little power and give great results in most materials.  That being said, I'm about 50/50 for HSS and carbide.

Try out carbide that is set up for aluminum, that is honed and positive rake - they work well at lower SFPM/RPM.


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## Moper361 (Nov 20, 2018)

Has anyone here ever tried these,I'm not trying to pedal these or promote them but I have been watching and reading reviews on these and I'm very tempted to try them ,Seems there are so many uses and options these would be good for and grinding the tips seems reasonably simple .Ive always used lathe tools with inserts and have quite a selection but I have to say this looks like a better option and eliminates buy tips al the time .
Here is a you tube link from eccentric engineering who seem to be the makers of it 

Has anyone here had experience with these lathe tool holders they would be willing to share on here 






Regards Nat


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## mikey (Nov 20, 2018)

That is the tangential tool that @Splat referred to in post 41 above. Pretty sure @Tozguy uses one, too. Very intriguing design, I have to admit and they seem to be highly regarded by those who own them. I have no personal experience with them so I'll butt out.


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## Moper361 (Nov 20, 2018)

mikey said:


> That is the tangential tool that @Splat referred to in post 41 above. Pretty sure @Tozguy uses one, too. Very intriguing design, I have to admit and they seem to be highly regarded by those who own them. I have no personal experience with them so I'll butt out.


I am really tempted to try them but they are not cheap however if they are as good as it looks would save in the long run


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## mikey (Nov 20, 2018)

Moper361 said:


> I am really tempted to try them but they are not cheap however if they are as good as it looks would save in the long run



Yeah, I was tempted, too. I think this is a good set up if you don't care to grind traditional tools. What I find most attractive about this is the simplicity of the equipment needed - just a bench grinder and you're good to go. I'll be the first to admit that grinding traditional HSS tools takes the right equipment and more know-how. For me, this works but for someone entering the hobby it might be a bit much, at least at first. If you decide to jump, please consider doing a review for us.


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## Splat (Nov 20, 2018)

That's mostly the reason I bought them back when I got my first lathe, Mikey. Simplicity of use and easy to sharpen for this newbie. You can pretty much jump right in and get very respectable results. You still have to know about feeds and speeds. I did at first try grinding my own HSS but just couldn't get the results I wanted. I have since learned to grind some tooling but I admit that I still get better results from the TTH. Grinding tools is a skill not taken lightly or with little practice. BTW, thanks Nat for linking to that video. I've never seen it and it did show me a few things I hadn't done before.


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## Moper361 (Nov 20, 2018)

Splat said:


> That's mostly the reason I bought them back when I got my first lathe, Mikey. Simplicity of use and easy to sharpen for this newbie. You can pretty much jump right in and get very respectable results. You still have to know about feeds and speeds. I did at first try grinding my own HSS but just couldn't get the results I wanted. I have since learned to grind some tooling but I admit that I still get better results from the TTH. Grinding tools is a skill not taken lightly or with little practice. BTW, thanks Nat for linking to that video. I've never seen it and it did show me a few things I hadn't done before.


Hi Splat From what I'm ready most off the people who have purchased these tool holders have all said the same as yourself and are getting good results out of them ,I would love to have a play around with one before buying but that's not going to happen so guess I just need to bite the bullet .I can see so many positives with these tools ,I'm sure there are downsides to but I've not seen many yet .Guess all  I need to do is work out the correct tool holder for my lathe I use a BXA quick change tool post so thinking that gives me a little more room to play with .im trying talk my father into buying one first as he is a hobbiest like me and he is interested but we're both the same would like to try one in anger first before buying due to the price being a little high


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## Splat (Nov 20, 2018)

I understand, Moper361. Do you have the means to make a tangential holder? There are many plans out there, such as *this* one from John Moran. I have no regrets with the purchase....I just wish it was cheaper!   Oh, and I have the 9.5mm version which I have no complaints using on my 12x36 lathe.


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## mikey (Nov 20, 2018)

I'll give you some of the downsides I've thought about, although this is just conjecture since I don't own one. However, I have thought about it for some time now and these downsides are why I don't own one. 

Cost. $132.00 for AXA tool with grinding jig plus tax. And then there's shipping.
The side relief angle is fixed at about 10 degrees. This works but I would rather be able to alter this angle if I choose but there is no provision for this. The end relief angle is also fixed but I don't know what that angle is. So, there is no provision to alter the cutting forces the tool produces.
The rake angles are fixed unless you alter the angle of the jig somehow. The rake angles are the most critical angles on a turning tool and not being able to alter them at need is a deal breaker for me.
Tool geometry is the same for all materials, which makes no sense to me. All other HSS tools require different tool angles for each material group except this one.
Tool geometry is the same for all lathes. Small lathes lack the power and rigidity of larger ones and since we cannot modify the angles then how do we raise the performance level of the tool for smaller lathes? Sort of an important issue if you ask me.
On the other hand, the tool is very simple to grind and requires no understanding of tool geometry. This is a huge plus, especially for new guys who just want to get cutting on their new lathes. If I was a new guy and didn't know what I know now, I might just jump on this tool.


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## Bamban (Nov 21, 2018)

Mikey and Mopar,

If you guys want to test drive the tangential tool, I can loan you mine. Let me know, send me your mailing address. 81stfacp@gmail.com 

I have not used mine since I hardly use the 9x20 lathe for any work other than turning cartridge necks. 

Nez


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## ddickey (Nov 21, 2018)

Moper361 said:


> Has anyone here ever tried these,I'm not trying to pedal these or promote them but I have been watching and reading reviews on these and I'm very tempted to try them ,Seems there are so many uses and options these would be good for and grinding the tips seems reasonably simple .Ive always used lathe tools with inserts and have quite a selection but I have to say this looks like a better option and eliminates buy tips al the time .
> Here is a you tube link from eccentric engineering who seem to be the makers of it
> 
> Has anyone here had experience with these lathe tool holders they would be willing to share on here
> ...


1/2" tool with grinding jig is $95 shipped.
I have one but have not used it much as I have a lot of cutting tools.
Mikey if you want to try it and give a report I can send to you.


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## ddickey (Nov 21, 2018)

Mikey I think you forgot to convert from Aussie dollars to Federal Reserve IOU's.


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## Moper361 (Nov 21, 2018)

Banbam Dickey ,If I lived in US I'd definatly. Take you up on the offer to try the Tanginal tool holder and be happy to pay shipping but ,Unfortunatly I live in Chiang mai Thailand and by I pay shipping etc to borrow one there would be fair chance I could purchase one with a bit of added cash .I really appreciate the offer thank you .at the end of the day I think I will just buy the right hand and left hand pair of tool holders with sharpening jig and get them delivered to my fathers place and collect them and hand carry back home to Thailand when I'm in Australia next ,as if I order and get sent direct to Thailand I'll get hit with taxes and duties on top of purchase price .


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## Nogoingback (Nov 21, 2018)

Moper361 said:


> Has anyone here ever tried these,I'm not trying to pedal these or promote them but I have been watching and reading reviews on these and I'm very tempted to try them ,Seems there are so many uses and options these would be good for and grinding the tips seems reasonably simple .Ive always used lathe tools with inserts and have quite a selection but I have to say this looks like a better option and eliminates buy tips al the time .
> Here is a you tube link from eccentric engineering who seem to be the makers of it
> 
> Has anyone here had experience with these lathe tool holders they would be willing to share on here
> ...




I have a Diamond tool holder which I sometimes use.  Honestly, I haven't played with it enough to really figure out what it's best for, but 
I tend to use it for roughing out when I have a lot of material to remove.  The actual tool is a HSS blank, so part of tool prep is to round
off one corner a bit to create a reasonable nose radius.  I did that, but I was in too much of a hurry to put more than a small radius on it, so surface
finish isn't great with mine.  I imagine I would get better results if I put a little effort in.     Other than that, I think it's a useful tool.  The
tool holder is fairly robust, so rigidity doesn't seem to be a problem.  As Mikey pointed out, one of the downsides is cost, and the fact
that tool holders for right and left hand turning are required, which makes them even more expensive if both are needed.  As others have
pointed out, I think the main advantage of these tools are their simplicity sharpening-wise, and once purchased, tool bits are cheap and
last a long time.  I bought mine partly for that reason, and partly because I was curious: a friend from work  showed his to
me.  

So, are they worth it?  I don't regret buying mine, but I'm kind of a lazy guy and I use Arthur Warner tooling all the time because it's simple
to deal with as well and I get good results with it.


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## mikey (Nov 21, 2018)

Nez, Duane, thank you so much for your generous offer to loan your tools for a trial but I have to refuse, for the following reasons.

If I did an honest trial and reported it then it would be no different than a report from anyone else. But if I did a comparison between that tool and my modified-for-each-material class tools then it would not be a fair test. I'm not sure my tools would function better but I suspect they will, and an honest report could potentially hurt this guy. I don't want do that and I can't lie so it is best not to open the can of worms at all, I think. 

I honestly like that the tangential tool allows beginners to use HSS from the get go because it is so easy to grind. This helps the user of a small lathe to get started and it helps the seller, a win-win. We do not need some bozo (me) to upset this for no real reason at all.

I may one day buy my own tool to satisfy my curiosity and I will definitely run comparison tests at that time but I have long since decided that the results would not be reported by me.


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## Dabbler (Nov 21, 2018)

I thought I'd add one more comment about low-power lathes and carbide.  Remember I only use Carbide 50% of the time.... but...

I have a 12X37 1.5 HP lathe.  that is considered by some to be too' low-power' to run carbide tooling at all.  My maximum  speed is around 1300, which is pretty slow SFPM for smaller diameters (most of my work). 

That's why I use positive rake tooling - it needs lower HP to do the job and needs lower SFPM to do a good job.  Particularly honed aluminum - specific tooling works particularly well, even in soft steel.

I was intrigued about the diamond tool holder.  I am a tool addict (really?!!)  and have wanted to try out one of these holders for a long time now.  Trouble is,  I've been grinding HSS for 35 years now, and don't need 'training wheels'.  The  other advantage of the diamond I can't use:  taking very deep cuts, because with my low HP, I just can't.

Thanks for the link to gadgetbuilder.com.  I might just build a tangential toolder just to to try out!


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## Moper361 (Nov 21, 2018)

seems there is quite a bit of common interest in the Tanginal tool holder however we all seem be of same opinion on price  ,I think I will have a go at making one in the future rather than buy as I do hav mill ect so have the resorces to make one


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## ddickey (Nov 23, 2018)

I emailed Gary who is the owner of Eccentric Engineering asking him if he could address some of the questions, following is his response.

Thanks for your email, I’ll try and respond to the comments below as best I can.

Cost. If the tool is purchased directly through the website shop in Australia the cost of the tool holder mentioned below would only be US$79.50 (AU$110), plus US$16.00 for airmail shipping to anywhere in the USA. There may be some import duty upon arrival but I’m not sure what that would be, if any.

Over the years I’ve had a great many customers coming up to me at shows to say how happy they are with the tool they bought 20+ years ago and that it still works just as well as the day they bought it. In that regard I think $80 is pretty good value.

The side and front clearance angles are set at 10 degrees which is a little more than usual (around 8 degrees) so that there is enough clearance between the clamp and the workpiece.

If the clearance angles are lessened the tool bit would have to sit higher up in the holder to compensate for it, thus reducing rigidity. Otherwise the clamp would foul the workpiece when cutting a square shoulder or doing a facing cut.

When set up correctly the jig will generate a rake angle of approximately 15 degrees which is fine for most materials likely to be encountered in the home workshop. At this setting it will sharpen both a left or right hand tool bit with the same grinding jig which is obviously more convenient.

The rake angle can be changed if desired by simply adjusting the height of the bench grinder tool rest, higher gives you more rake, lower gives less rake. The downside of changing the rake angle is that the tool bit will no longer be symmetrical so an opposite hand sharpening jig would be required to achieve the different rake angles for a left hand tool holder.

Other than adding a chip breaker groove for stringy materials such as stainless steel I have never needed to change the rake angle for any material.

In my experience the 15 degrees has worked perfectly well over the years on a range of plastics, aluminium, hot and cold rolled steels, titanium, cast iron, copper, light cuts in brass and bronze and even timber. For heavy cuts in brass and bronze I hone a small flat on the top of the tool bit to avoid dig-ins.

Different tool geometry for different materials was developed many years ago for industry so that they could remove the largest possible amount of material in the shortest possible amount of time for the longest possible tool life but still achieve an acceptable surface quality. The four factors were balanced to achieve the best result in terms of making money, that’s all they were developed for, if you increase one you decrease another and vice versa.

This thinking isn’t as relevant in a home workshop as fractions of a second in reduced machining time really don’t matter to us.

So long as a tool bit has some clearance angles it will cut, changing the rake angle will help or hinder how fast the tool bit can cut through the material but it’s the keenness of the cutting edge combined with the speeds and feeds of the lathe that affects the surface finish.

Small lathes sometimes struggle with carbide tips as they work best when the point radius of the tool bit is cutting for it’s entire depth, if you have a large radius on the tool bit the lathe is not going to be strong enough to push the tool but reducing the depth of cut will often give an inferior finish as the tool edge will tend to skate across the surface.

The tool geometry of the Diamond Tool Holders allows relatively heavy cuts in small lathes but as HSS can take a finer cut than most indexable carbide you can also reduce the depth of cut to relieve stress on the lathe whilst still achieving a good surface finish.

I use Diamond Tool Holders for most tasks on all my lathes and they range from a benchtop Sherline using one of the small discontinued tool holders with a 1/8” tool bit to a Jessey Major with a 4” bore which uses a 1” tool with a 5/16” tool bit.

Everyone has their own views of course and the above is just my personal thoughts, and obviously I have a bit of a bias towards my own products 

If you haven’t seen it before the “Diamond Tool Holder - features and tips” video I put up on YouTube shows far more about the tool holder than any words I could put into an email.

I hope this information is helpful and you’re welcome to post this on the forum if you think it will be of interest to people.

Cheers

Gary


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## Moper361 (Nov 23, 2018)

ddickey said:


> I emailed Gary who is the owner of Eccentric Engineering asking him if he could address some of the questions, following is his response.
> 
> Thanks for your email, I’ll try and respond to the comments below as best I can.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that Dickey that is very good information and gives a good positive outlook on the tools ,I know they have been around for a long time as my father mentioned he had seen them at some field day many years ago ,at 80 Us plus shipping I guess over a long period of time it is not a huge cost .I guess partly the reason also it may seem a little expensive is you can buy but the cheaper shares and Chinese tool holders quite cheap these days but then you are buying tips for ever more ,guess if you broke it down over a few years it would pay for itself .


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## mikey (Nov 23, 2018)

ddickey said:


> I emailed Gary who is the owner of Eccentric Engineering asking him if he could address some of the questions, following is his response.



In truth, $100.00 to buy and ship a tool holder plus the grinding jig is not an outrageous cost nowadays. I don't think he makes a ton of money on this item after paying overhead so I think the cost is more than fair. This is especially true if you cannot or will not grind your own tools. For me, that is not the case.




ddickey said:


> Different tool geometry for different materials was developed many years ago for industry so that they could remove the largest possible amount of material in the shortest possible amount of time for the longest possible tool life but still achieve an acceptable surface quality. The four factors were balanced to achieve the best result in terms of making money, that’s all they were developed for, if you increase one you decrease another and vice versa.
> 
> This thinking isn’t as relevant in a home workshop as fractions of a second in reduced machining time really don’t matter to us.



The cutting angles on a turning tool found in most tool angle tables were developed over many years, from many sources in the industry. What they found was that different materials require different tool angles to cut them efficiently, which essentially means the ability to produce the maximum number of parts per unit time. There are many components to this efficiency thing - tool life, machine life, energy expenditure, and on and on - but the point is that to maximize efficiency, geometry changes with the material group. 

I dunno', time matters to me. Let me explain. If I take a tool with standard geometry for steel and throw it on my little Sherline lathe, I can maybe take a 0.020" cut in mild steel. But if I use a tool with a modified geometry, I can take double or triple that cut in the same amount of time while also improving accuracy and finish. In this case, time equates to performance and efficiency, no? That same modified tool will do this for mild steel but will it work as well in stainless? No, it wouldn't be as effective, but I can change the geometry easily so that it would. My point is that, for me, the ability to alter geometry is important to the performance of the lathe on which the tool is used. A fixed geometry would totally negate this.



ddickey said:


> So long as a tool bit has some clearance angles it will cut, changing the rake angle will help or hinder how fast the tool bit can cut through the material but it’s the keenness of the cutting edge combined with the speeds and feeds of the lathe that affects the surface finish.



The rake angles on a HSS tool are, in my view, the most important angles on the tool. As suggested above, they impact on penetration (how fast the tool bit can cut) but they also affect cutting temperatures via chip clearance, chip thickness and flow velocity. It also impacts on the site of focus of cutting forces and aids in finishes by altering the shear angle at the end cutting edge. All of this matters, at least to me, but perhaps most important of these things is cutting force reduction/penetration. If the aforementioned standard geometry cutting tool for mild steel has a side rake angle of 8 degrees, we can improve performance by increasing that rake angle to 12 or 15 degrees and the tool will cut deeper on the same lathe. If we take this same modified tool and use it on aluminum, we can make the tool work even better by giving it 18 degrees of side rake. At the same time, we could change the back rake angle to make the tool cut even better while improving finishes. Again, my point is that the rake angles matter, as does the ability to change them at need.

So, here is the bottom line for me. I have said from the beginning that I think the Diamond Tool Holder is a good way to go for guys who don't wish to or are unable to grind tools. Nothing we've discussed about it has changed that view. I think I understand tool geometry well enough that going to a fixed geometry will not work for me, that's all.


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## Moper361 (Dec 3, 2018)

Well Today I revisited my thoughts on Tanginal tool so I thought I'd put my take on one and made one today .And after using it I will definatly be making more as father wants one now and I want a left hand one .

I still need to make the small block for sharpening but that's not major and I want to have a bit more of a play around with angles before I finalise it .

The tool I've made actually uses round hss 5/16 and I just grind two flats on .

I will say I was extremely surprised how well they work and cut .Even when doing a very deep cut the finish is quite reasonable .

I plan to make some more soon so if anyone wants pictures measurements or ideas on how I made this one drop me a PM


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