# Further Down the Rabbit Hole, or Plasma Cutters, MIGs, and Chop Saws oh my!



## ACHiPo

As the title says, now that I've dipped my toe into the metal working pool by buying a Logan 816, I'm thinking of all the cool things I want to make (like an angle iron base for the lathe bench that I can put retractable caster/feet), and I'm thinking I "need" a MIG welder, and of course some way to cut up the stock to weld, so I "need" a chop saw.  Then I discovered how cool plasma cutters are.  

You get the idea.

I've got an under-used 12" Dewalt compound miter saw for wood.  The research I've seen says don't try to use wood miter saws as metal chop saws, but...what's the worst (ok, worst most probable) thing that could happen if I pop a composition blade onto the Dewalt to get me by until I decide if I really like the welding fabrication stuff?

Are plasma cutters really the bomb-diggety, especially if I'm running a 4.2 CFM @ 90 psi compressor?

Also, what are folks' experience with welders?  I definitely want a MIG, as it seems really pretty approachable.  Miller (and probably others) make multi-purpose welders that will do MIG, stick, and TIG for not a whole lot of money, but my gut feeling is that they do none of the above particularly well.  https://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc....Kdoo2Elhv0MeB65DrS-ZB1BPbujcI7tXSgaArKS8P8HAQ

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!


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## bfd

wood chop saws are too fast for the blade to last long. so as the blade goes dull in the middle of the cut and you are gripping the metal by hand ( because you don't have the proper hold downs it grabs and forces your hand into the blade and you miss some fingers. that would be the worse thing that could happen. yes I have a warped mind be careful bill


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## ACHiPo

bfd said:


> wood chop saws are too fast for the blade to last long. so as the blade goes dull in the middle of the cut and you are gripping the metal by hand ( because you don't have the proper hold downs it grabs and forces your hand into the blade and you miss some fingers. that would be the worse thing that could happen. yes I have a warped mind be careful bill


Allrighty then 

I guess I can look this up, but what RPM does a wood chop saw run vs. a metal one?


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## ACHiPo

ACHiPo said:


> Allrighty then
> 
> I guess I can look this up, but what RPM does a wood chop saw run vs. a metal one?


My Dewalt CMS is 4000 RPM, as is the Dewalt metal abrasive saw.  The Evolution metal (carbide) saw runs at 1400 RPM.  The CMS does not have a vise, but the metal abrasive one does.

Another option I suppose is to put a metal blade on my Jet steel bandsaw?


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## ACHiPo

By the way the Evolution saw looks pretty trick.


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## mikey

I would get a horizontal/vertical bandsaw if I were you. I have a chop saw and while it works, it heats the stock up a lot. If you're only working with structural steel then that isn't a big deal but a hobby machinist will cut a lot of other kinds of stock over his "career" and a band saw is a vastly better choice. 

As for the welder, I have a Mig and O/A torch. I only weld smaller projects for myself, with thickness of up to about 1/4", so my little 135A Lincoln welder is fine for my needs. I'll let the other more experienced welders chime in here but just wanted to say that if you just want to weld something quickly and solidly then a Mig welder is the easiest to learn. I can gas weld pretty well and I've been just okay with Tig but I can run a good bead with good penetration much faster with my Mig welder. And buy a welder with an Argon regulator; flux core works but leaves  spatter/slag all over your project. I only use flux-core outside or when I can't clean the parts well for some reason. If you choose to go with Mig, ask a lot of questions before buying.

I always intended to buy a plasma cutter but to be honest, I get by with my horizontal/vertical bandsaw for cutting out parts. Yes, I'm limited by this but I also don't have a machine sitting doing nothing most of the time, either. If you do a lot of steel work then a plasma cutter makes sense. If not, then it doesn't.


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## ACHiPo

mikey said:


> I would get a horizontal/vertical bandsaw if I were you. I have a chop saw and while it works, it heats the stock up a lot. If you're only working with structural steel then that isn't a big deal but a hobby machinist will cut a lot of other kinds of stock over his "career" and a band saw is a vastly better choice.
> 
> As for the welder, I have a Mig and O/A torch. I only weld smaller projects for myself, with thickness of up to about 1/4", so my little 135A Lincoln welder is fine for my needs. I'll let the other more experienced welders chime in here but just wanted to say that if you just want to weld something quickly and solidly then a Mig welder is the easiest to learn. I can gas weld pretty well and I've been just okay with Tig but I can run a good bead with good penetration much faster with my Mig welder. And buy a welder with an Argon regulator; flux core works but leaves  spatter/slag all over your project. I only use flux-core outside or when I can't clean the parts well for some reason. If you choose to go with Mig, ask a lot of questions before buying.
> 
> I always intended to buy a plasma cutter but to be honest, I get by with my horizontal/vertical bandsaw for cutting out parts. Yes, I'm limited by this but I also don't have a machine sitting doing nothing most of the time, either. If you do a lot of steel work then a plasma cutter makes sense. If not, then it doesn't.


Mikey,
Thanks.  I left a bandsaw off my list--it's slower than an abrasive chop saw, but more flexible.  I need to check blade speed and tension requirements--my Jet vertical saw is stout, but may not be stout enough for a metal blade.  Plus it won't really function as a cut off saw at least for long pieces.  The more reading I'm doing, however, carbide metal-cutting saws have me intrigued.   They're pricey (the blades are ~$100@, and it looks like you need separate blades for Al and steel).

I also didn't mention that I have experience with O/A (I silver brazed a bike frame from scratch when I was in high school), but for what I'm interested in soing now, MIG seems really attractive.  

Another thing I'm trying to figure out is how to deal with gas cylinders as I don't have a truck, and don't want to replace my daily driver with one.

I've been spending a lot of time lately on planes and with jetlag, which gives me a lot of time to read and research, but not much time to work in the shop getting experience.


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## Groundhog

I work a lot with aluminum and once needed smallish (like 4" x 6") pieces cut out of 0.080" plate. I picked up a good used table saw and changed the blade to a Diablo 80 tooth aluminum specific blade. I made a "skid" that I can clamp the stock in and slide the skid with the stock in the groves of the saw's table. No problems with up to 3/4" 6061 aluminum as long as you use lots of cutting fluid (aluminum specific or WD-40). I've since added a Diablo ferris metal cutting blade with similar results with steel.
You'll want to hook up a vacuum in a hurry though!
Just change pulleys to adjust speed to suit the blades / materials.
I use both the rip fence and the sliding protractor (with mods so that I can use clamps instead of holding the stock by hand).
If I haven't made something clear please message me. This saw conversion works really, really nice.


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## ACHiPo

Groundhog said:


> I work a lot with aluminum and once needed smallish (like 4" x 6") pieces cut out of 0.080" plate. I picked up a good used table saw and changed the blade to a Diablo 80 tooth aluminum specific blade. I made a "skid" that I can clamp the stock in and slide the skid with the stock in the groves of the saw's table. No problems with up to 3/4" 6061 aluminum as long as you use lots of cutting fluid (aluminum specific or WD-40). I've since added a Diablo ferris metal cutting blade with similar results with steel.
> You'll want to hook up a vacuum in a hurry though!
> Just change pulleys to adjust speed to suit the blades / materials.
> I use both the rip fence and the sliding protractor (with mods so that I can use clamps instead of holding the stock by hand).
> If I haven't made something clear please message me. This saw conversion works really, really nice.


Very interesting idea of using the table saw.  I also have an underutilized table saw (I use my Festool MFT or my Jet band saw for just about all wood cutting tasks).  I'll need to check whether my table saw, an old Inca, has pulleys for speed adjustment.  Come to think of it, the Festool circular saw is adjustable speed, so I could use it with a proper blade.  
The biggest concern I have with mixing ferrous metal cutting with wood is fire--not a good idea--but aluminum should be fine.

All kinds of options! (I'm still jonesin' for a plasma cutter, though!)


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## Bob Korves

Good advice from Mikey.  Since I bought my HF horizontal/vertical band saw, my Milwaukee 14" chop saw has stayed in the cabinet.  My sabre saws have pretty much as well, though they can be used on tighter radii and on cuts without an external starting point.  The little HF saws are really quite useful in a home hobby shop, versatile, relatively cheap, and they work quite well after the inevitable setup and dialing in that is needed as received.


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## ACHiPo

Bob Korves said:


> Good advice from Mikey.  Since I bought my HF horizontal/vertical band saw, my Milwaukee 14" chop saw has stayed in the cabinet.  My sabre saws have pretty much as well, though they can be used on tighter radii and on cuts without an external starting point.  The little HF saws are really quite useful in a home hobby shop, versatile, relatively cheap, and they work quite well after the inevitable setup and dialing in that is needed as received.


Ok I'm sold!  A trip to HF on my way home is on my agenda.

I assume this is the "little" band saw?
http://www.harborfreight.com/horizontal-vertical-metal-cutting-bandsaw-93762.html

How are HF's bandsaw blades?


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## royesses

Download and print some HF 20% off coupons:
http://www.hfqpdb.com/

Roy


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## Bob Korves

ACHiPo said:


> How are HF's bandsaw blades?


Not so good, though they do also sell USA made blades at fair prices.  Lenox, Starrett, and Irwin blades have worked OK for me.  Carbon steel works for softer metals and doesn't cost as much, but bi-metal blades are pretty much needed for tool steel, stainless, etc.  The trouble with that is changing the blade from job to job, which is a PITA, and also keeping track of what blade is currently mounted.  As for the number of teeth per inch, the rule is 3--6-12--24.  No less than three teeth in the cut.  Six to twelve teeth in the cut is ideal.  24 teeth in the cut is the maximum.  I won't go into why here, but those numbers seem to work pretty well.  You can use less teeth if you have a really good and rigid hydraulic down feed, which the HF saw does not have, it is only an adjustable spring counterbalance.


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## Bob Korves

ACHiPo said:


> I assume this is the "little" band saw?


That is the one!  Other vendors sell the same or very similar saw.  HF has about the best price on them.  Make sure to get a discount coupon and save 20%!


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## brino

ACHiPo said:


> now that I've dipped my toe into the metal working pool....I'm thinking of all the cool things I want to make ............ and I'm thinking I "need" a MIG welder, and of course some way to cut up the stock to weld, so I "need" a chop saw. Then I discovered how cool plasma cutters are. You get the idea.



Yes we sure do. Welcome to the addiction!



ACHiPo said:


> I've got an under-used 12" Dewalt compound miter saw for wood. The research I've seen says don't try to use wood miter saws as metal chop saws, but...what's the worst (ok, worst most probable) thing that could happen if I pop a composition blade onto the Dewalt to get me by until I decide if I really like the welding fabrication stuff?



I just talked to a friend yesterday that tried this. He managed to entirely melt the plastic dust chute on his saw. Apparently it shriveled right up, brittle and cracked and then fell apart when he touched it.

One other distinction about metal "chop saws" is abrasive blade (like on a grinder, but thin kerf) vs. the slow-speed dry cut blade. Those two things are vastly different tools and should be talked about separately. The noise level may be similar, but the sparks/debris, heat build-up in the work, quality of cut are very different.

So far I have been unable to justify a plasma torch. Luckily I do have a metal bandsaw, an abrasive chop saw (that has not been used since I got....), a slow-speed dry cut saw.

Your wood band-saw likely runs too fast for steel, even if it is sturdy enough and has the proper blade. Search this site for a couple very good low-speed conversions of band-saws to cut metal.

I would echo the suggestions to get a vertical/horizontal metal-cutting bandsaw. A good bi-metal blade will make it a dream to use.

For welders I started with a Century stick welder and that was great for heavy steel. Over the years I have picked up an O/A torch, Lincoln 180 MIG, and finally an Everlast TIG. Each step added new capabilities to my shop. And as @mikey stated, the step from flux-core MIG to gas-shield MIG is a big step in cleanliness and quality. The step up to TIG (at least for me) has been a trial in (in)competence. I often refer to my "TIG welding practice" as "TIG electrode sharpening practice". My biggest step forward there came from getting a high-end auto-darkening helmet. Amazing what you can do when you can actually see the work and the puddle!

This is getting too long. I'd better sign off.

Be safe and Have fun!
-brino


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## Groundhog

ACHiPo said:


> Very interesting idea of using the table saw.  I also have an underutilized table saw (I use my Festool MFT or my Jet band saw for just about all wood cutting tasks).  I'll need to check whether my table saw, an old Inca, has pulleys for speed adjustment.  Come to think of it, the Festool circular saw is adjustable speed, so I could use it with a proper blade.
> The biggest concern I have with mixing ferrous metal cutting with wood is fire--not a good idea--but aluminum should be fine.
> All kinds of options! (I'm still jonesin' for a plasma cutter, though!)



Know what you mean about a plasma cutter. However I got this table saw set up for about $100. And actually, I didn't need to change speeds because the blades are designed to be used to cut the corresponding metal on a table saw at table saw speeds. I don't use the saw for wood of any kind so no problems with fire, but it could be a problem if you also cut wood. The chips go all over the place. I installed a bag (from HF) that snaps under the saw and catches a lot of the chips, but I also incorporate a vacuum hose to various shields. I can take pics if anyone wants.


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## coherent

ACHiPo said:


> By the way the Evolution saw looks pretty trick.



I bought the small evolution and the optional steel blade which I read was better for steel. First cut (slow and careful, with 1 1/2" thin wall mild steel tubing tubing... sparks and smoke. Luckily used amazon and returned it for a refund. Maybe others have better reports but I rate it a big thumbs down.


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## bfd

alright, you like your fingers! ok I have both a wood chop saw (Makita 10" sliding saw, and a 12" dewalt  metal chop saw. if I remember correctly the Makita runs at 3400 rpm the dewalt runs at 1700 rpm or there about. I you want I can go and verify that for you. I have cut 3x3 steel on my chop saw the good thing is that it leaves very little burr when I'm done. bad news blades are very expensive in the 12" version.  I just read some of the post and I am not talking about an abrasive saw. its a carbide tipped metal saw blade. I also have a Milwaukee 14" abrasive saw. I don't use it much because of the mess it makes and the big burr it leaves when done. if it was outside it would be better but that's another story. the saw I use the most for cutting steel and the like is my hand feed enco ( fong ru) chop type bandsaw. its small will cut 3x3 tube steel in one cut. the blades are expensive about 32 bucks each. I don't know if msc (enco) still sels them but for quick cutoff it works well. bill


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## coherent

I know what you mean about catching the bug. I've had a few plasma cutters. I have a cheap import lotos LTP5000d. I didn't expect much but must admit it cuts ok and the machine and consumables are really reasonable price wise.  The high frequency arc start plays havoc with electronics so can't use it for my cnc plasma machine though. I also have a Hypertherm 45xp. Must admit the 45xp is the best I've used. Love it.

Another consideration is a small horizontal bandsaw instead of a chop saw. I bought the small Harbor Freight model some years ago. Made a better stand, and got some better blades and it's still going strong and used regularly. Much cleaner and quieter than the abrasive blade chop saws. Not as fast cutting, but straighter and cleaner. You can walk away and let it do it's thing and it'll make the cut and shut itself off.


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## T. J.

I'll give you my 2 cents on welders.  First, you get what you pay for - same as everything else.  However, the cheaper welders can be a nice start to get your foot in the door.  Which process you choose depends mostly on what you plan on welding.  MIG excels on light gauge stuff, stick on heavier stuff, with a lot of overlap in the middle.  If your projects fit in that overlap range (eg. structural steel >1/8" thick), in my opinion, you will be a better welder in the long run if you learn to use a stick welder first.  When you have those skills mastered, using MIG will be easy. Not so easy if you do it the other way around.  If you do go with MIG, I second (or third?) Mike's recommendation to get one with a gas regulator.

As for multiprocess welders, I have been impressed with my Klutch 220SI from Northern Tool:  http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200631881_200631881
I got it mainly for its MIG capabilities since I have access to a couple of Miller stick welders.  I have stick welded with it though and I will say that the smoothness of the arc is very nice (this is the first inverter powered welder I have used).  Hobart, Miller, and Lincoln all have similar machines, which are priced accordingly with the brand.  If you happen to buy the Klutch welder though, go ahead and buy a better ground clamp and replace it before you get started.  The one that comes on the machine is junk.


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## mikey

ACHiPo said:


> Ok I'm sold!  A trip to HF on my way home is on my agenda.
> 
> I assume this is the "little" band saw?
> http://www.harborfreight.com/horizontal-vertical-metal-cutting-bandsaw-93762.html
> 
> How are HF's bandsaw blades?



I would guess the HF model is the most ubiquitous little bandsaw in the US. It is capable from what I understand but may require some tweaking to work well. Join the Yahoo 4x6 group and learn all about it. I have a Jet HVBS-56M and it has been flawless for about 15 years now. Once tuned, it stays tuned.

For blades, I would highly recommend you consider Lenox Diemaster-2 bi-metal blades. They are not expensive and mine last over 5 years each, or more. I prefer a 10-14 tooth variable pitch blade and use it for everything from wood to stainless with no issues at all. Easily the best blade I've tried (tried Starrett, Morse, and the lousy stock Jet blade and none came close to a Lenox). 

You will need to tune the saw and the best guide is on the Yahoo group by John Pitkin. It might be in the download section here; haven't checked. You will also benefit from a chip brush and a good table for vertical cutting.


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## BFHammer

Welcome to the ever slippery slope!

I wholeheartedly agree with what has been said above about the Harbor Freight bandsaw.  One of my first purchases as I was tooling up to do some metal fabrication.  With a little tuning it's a great little machine.  I find it still gets a ton of use for the larger metal cutting work. 
Around Christmas, temptation (and a 25% off coupon) got the best of me and I purchased the Dewalt DW872 dry cut saw.  It has been great so far and I have given it a good workout.  It will be painful when I have to replace the blade but so far so good.  

On the topic of plasma cutters I fell in love with those early on.  My advice would be hold off until you justify the expenditure and then get a Hypertherm.  I tried to cheap out and started with an Eastwood versa cut.  Very underpowered, low quality torch and it eats consumables.  I sold it and got a Hypertherm 45.  That machine is AWESOME!  Everytime I have a need for the plasma it makes me .  I actually cut some 1" plate just to see if it would and it did.  1/2" and under is like slicing butter.  Although the machine is a big investment up front it is easy on consumables saving you money down the road.

One thing to put on your list that I think was mentioned above is a portable bandsaw - the one from HF is just fine and can be had for basically $100 on sale.  Take the money you saved and get a SWAG portaband stand.  My saw lives in the stand and gets used almost everytime I'm in the shop for something.  

That covers everything but welding.  I did some stick welding years ago but when I got back into metal work I got a Millermatic 211 MIG.  I really learned to weld from YouTube and lots of practice.  The MIG is very versatile and I think is a good all around choice.  Definitely go gas.  Flux core only when you can't take your rig with you.  You can buy an 80CF tank and it will ride in your back seat just fine - it only about 4' tall.  That is probably against some rule - but just keep the cap on for transport.  Alternatively get a buddy to pick it up for you and you can weld something up for him in exchange.  Welding is it's own little vice - like Brino I have now picked up a TIG machine and with another five years of practice I might can make a decent weld with it!

Good luck and have fun - this forum is a great place for info and always willing to help spend your money! 

Mark


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## ch2co

Mike
Could you post some photos of the stand that you made for holding the HF "portaband" saw? 

Also for anyone, the HF band saw is a horizontal /vertical bandsaw. When it is standing in a vertical position, does it have a table to work off of? OR has someone
built such a table?  Photos?

Thanks 
CHuck the grumpy old guy


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## mikey

The table that comes with most Asian H/V bandsaws is just stamped thin sheetmetal that screws onto the lower blade guide. It is flimsy and dangerous in my opinion so I made my own from 1/4" thick mild steel that attaches to a sub-table. The sub-table is permanently screwed to the lower blade guide and is as large as clearance allows. The main table attaches to the sub-table with two 1/4-20 thumb screws in a few seconds. The main table is supported with a vertical support that stabilizes the table and prevents the saw from leaving the vertical position until I'm ready for it to do so. It takes a flick of the wrist to install or remove the support post.


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## T. J.

@chuck-
The portaband tables that Mark mentioned above can be found here:
http://www.swagoffroad.com/SWAG-Portaband-Tables-Accessories_c_35.html

I have the version 1.0 table for my Milwaukee saw and love it. SWAG also sells lots of other cool stuff that's on my wish list!


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## ch2co

Thanks guys, I just made up my mind to get a portaband style unit. I don't have a lot of floorspace for a horizontal unit. 
I cut most of my aluminum with my radial arm saw with metal cutting blade, gotten real good at it, but not for steel.


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## intjonmiller

I'm not too much further down this path than you. 2-3 years anyway, but far too busy with paying work to make much progress on my hobby in that time. But that has given me the ability to be patient in acquiring tools. I got an older HF abrasive chop saw pretty early. Cost me $20 on my local classifieds. Brushes crumbled a couple months later but some from a Harbor Freight router fit just fine. That has served me well for most things, along with angle grinders and a pneumatic cutoff tool. Just found a Milwaukee deep cut porta band for $150 on the classifieds the other day. About an hour away from me, but on my brother's way home from work. I'm excited to get it from him this weekend and put it to use making a chop saw stand and a vertical saw stand for it. But for fabrication tasks a cheap abrasive saw is faster and, other than the spray of hot, dirty grit, absolutely fine for the job. I keep a bastard mill file at the chop saw for quick deburring of the razor edge it leaves on tubing and such.

Someday I'll get a "proper" horizontal bandsaw, but having used one with power feed and coolant pump/pan, and with precious little space in my 1 car garage, I am going to wait until I have room and money for the real thing. Every six months or so one shows up on the classifieds around half the price of new. I can wait.


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## BGHansen

I've got a HF 7 x 12 band saw and love it.  Have a USA made bi-metal 10-14 tpi blade it in.  It's my go-to cutting tool.  Also have a Porter Cable chop saw from TSC; cost about $100.  Don't use it nearly as much as the band saw though I do use it for miter cuts in angle because I'm too lazy to change the vise angle on the band saw.  Have one of the import inverter plasma cutters too.  Only used it a couple of times to cut some 3/8" thick angle for making a float for scraping our driveway.  I could have used the band saw, but the plasma cutter is right at my shop door, saw is 30 feet away.

Also have a Hobart 190 MIG welder, AHP 200 TIG, Miller spot welder and a Lincoln AC buzz box stick welder.  The Hobart replaced a piece of crap 30-year old HF MIG welder that would never consistently feed wire.  Hobart is the Chevy brand as compared to Miller as the Cadillac (same company makes both).  Absolutely nothing bad to say about my Hobart welder.  

If you're on a budget, start with the band saw and MIG welder.  The TIG is nice if you're doing Aluminum welding.  Plasma cutter if you're making curves or complex shapes that can't be done with a band saw (easily).  Sounds like you're hooked, join the crowd!

Bruce


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## AGCB97

I'd watch Craigslist for stuff. You might get good machinery albeit older and needing a little care. I got a Johnson model J bandsaw for $400. All it needed was guide bearings and a blade. Cuts up to 19" wide flat plate and it's ready to use, no slag to grind.

At quick glance I didn't see anyone mention TIG welder. But closer look proved me wrong. Clean easy welds in steel or aluminum. A Alpha TIG AHP 200 was $700 from Amazon and it does stick too. To get the same features in an American made welder you'd pay 3-5 times as much. Good if you're making your living with it but not so good for a DIY er

As brino said "
I often refer to my "TIG welding practice" as "TIG electrode sharpening practice". My biggest step forward there came from getting a high-end auto-darkening helmet. Amazing what you can do when you can actually see the work and the puddle!"

I agree %100

Aaron


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## GarageGuy

ACHiPo said:


> ... You get the idea.



  Yep, you're in the right place.  That describes most of us.  I've had excellent luck finding tools on Craigslist over the years.  It takes patience, though.

As others have mentioned, the ubiquitous import 4 x 6 band saw is a great place to start.  The same machine has been imported for at least 40 years and labeled under dozens of brand names.  I got a used one for $45 on CL, and after a few hours of clean-up and adjustment it is a capable little saw.  I buy the Olson carbon steel blades they sell at Farm & Fleet, and Big R.  They sell for about $8 each, and are made in Wisconsin.  They last quite awhile unless you try to cut hard steel, or don't have enough teeth in contact with the metal.

I do a fair amount of welding, and the two processes you will use most are TIG and MIG.  I have a higher end Everlast Power Pro 256 AC/DC TIG inverter machine.  It can do stick welding and plasma cutting in addition to TIG.  It is one of the few machines I bought new, and they run in the $2000 range.  I weld aluminum, stainless, and mild steel regularly.  I also like being able to use silicon bronze and aluminum bronze for brazing in addition to traditional welding.  At work I use a Miller Dynasty 350 TIG machine (big $$$), and it is a killer nice machine, but I can do almost anything at home that I can at work.  There is a learning curve to TIG welding, but it is very versatile.  That said, there are some things that are just faster and easier to weld with MIG.  Metal framework for equipment stands, etc.  TIG is my favorite, but I have (and use) both.  My advice is to get a 220v machine whether you pick TIG or MIG.  You are much less likely to outgrow it and be looking for a bigger one in 6 months.

If you use plasma, you don't need a large quantity of air, but it does need to be very dry air.  Moisture in your plasma torch will eat up tips fast, and leave poor quality cuts.  I found a small refrigerated air dryer on CL for $200, and it makes a big difference.  It will make your powder coat stick better too because static electricity and humidity don't work well together.  Before I got it, I used a poor man's air dryer by coiling a copper tube through a large Rubbermaid tub filled with ice water, and then using a couple of water traps between that and the plasma torch or powder gun.  If you chill humid air, it condenses the moisture so it tends to separate or fall out of the air.  It doesn't matter whether you use a refrigerator or ice to get the job done.

Once you've been bitten by the hobby machine and welder bug, you're doomed just like the rest of us.  Be careful and have fun!

GG


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## 7635tools

TIG really isn't that hard. It's just a slow process. MIG is way faster but not as clean as TIG. Before I bought my syncrowave 250, I practiced with OA for about two weeks.  Same principal just different power sources. All of my welders are Miller. I have a millermatic 251 and a synchrowave 250. Just get a good name brand welder and it will last you a lifetime. I've had those cheap overseas welders and they don't hold up very well nor do they  weld very good. As for the plasma cutter I agree with previous posts about getting a bandsaw first. You'll use that way more. I  have a miller spectrum 625 plasma cutter that just sits and collects dust. Thinking I'm going to be selling it soon. Usually if I need to cut some stock I use the horizontal band saw. Or if I have to contour cut something I have a 16" Doall vertical bandsaw that works really nice. You can find these saws used at really cheap prices you just have to be patient and look. I got the Doall saw for $300.00. The horizontal saw I got for free from a fab shop that just purchased a new saw and we're going to throw the old one out. All it needed was new guide bearings and new pulley bearings.


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## ACHiPo

GarageGuy said:


> Yep, you're in the right place.  That describes most of us.  I've had excellent luck finding tools on Craigslist over the years.  It takes patience, though.
> 
> As others have mentioned, the ubiquitous import 4 x 6 band saw is a great place to start.  The same machine has been imported for at least 40 years and labeled under dozens of brand names.  I got a used one for $45 on CL, and after a few hours of clean-up and adjustment it is a capable little saw.  I buy the Olson carbon steel blades they sell at Farm & Fleet, and Big R.  They sell for about $8 each, and are made in Wisconsin.  They last quite awhile unless you try to cut hard steel, or don't have enough teeth in contact with the metal.


While I didn't make it to HF Friday after work, it is on my to-do list next week to pick up the 4x6 H/V saw.  I really like Mike's idea for a brace and larger, sturdier table.  That with some tweaking of the guides should make it a pretty solid performer.



GarageGuy said:


> I do a fair amount of welding, and the two processes you will use most are TIG and MIG.  I have a higher end Everlast Power Pro 256 AC/DC TIG inverter machine.  It can do stick welding and plasma cutting in addition to TIG.  It is one of the few machines I bought new, and they run in the $2000 range.  I weld aluminum, stainless, and mild steel regularly.  I also like being able to use silicon bronze and aluminum bronze for brazing in addition to traditional welding.  At work I use a Miller Dynasty 350 TIG machine (big $$$), and it is a killer nice machine, but I can do almost anything at home that I can at work.  There is a learning curve to TIG welding, but it is very versatile.  That said, there are some things that are just faster and easier to weld with MIG.  Metal framework for equipment stands, etc.  TIG is my favorite, but I have (and use) both.  My advice is to get a 220v machine whether you pick TIG or MIG.  You are much less likely to outgrow it and be looking for a bigger one in 6 months.


Ultimately I want to learn TIG--I think it will be the most useful for Al work--but there's a lot of stuff I'm itching to do in steel, for which the MIG will be fine.  I've pretty much settled on a Miller 211, and I have 220, so that should be a pretty solid set up for me.  The local welding supply shop seems great, and had some very reasonable options not only for the welder, but also accessories and safety gear.  Another big plus--the gas bottle will fit in my trunk which eases my concern about not having a truck.



GarageGuy said:


> If you use plasma, you don't need a large quantity of air, but it does need to be very dry air.  Moisture in your plasma torch will eat up tips fast, and leave poor quality cuts.  I found a small refrigerated air dryer on CL for $200, and it makes a big difference.  It will make your powder coat stick better too because static electricity and humidity don't work well together.  Before I got it, I used a poor man's air dryer by coiling a copper tube through a large Rubbermaid tub filled with ice water, and then using a couple of water traps between that and the plasma torch or powder gun.  If you chill humid air, it condenses the moisture so it tends to separate or fall out of the air.  It doesn't matter whether you use a refrigerator or ice to get the job done.


That's good information on needing a compressed air drier.  Will need to do some research on that, as it sounds pretty involved.



GarageGuy said:


> Once you've been bitten by the hobby machine and welder bug, you're doomed just like the rest of us.  Be careful and have fun!
> 
> GG


----------



## amesgang

I am looking at a multi process welder from Eastwood, great reviews and warranty.
                     Eastwood MP200i Multi Process Welder


----------



## brino

@amesgang

That's about the same price I paid for my Lincoln MIG-only machine!
But note, I am NOT a name-brand snob when it comes to welders.....I also have an Everlast TIG machine that is excellent (for about 1/4 the price of an equivalent big-name brand).

If you do get that Eastwood unit, please start a new thread with a review.
Even if you start slow with how it was packed and ease of buying, then expand it as you explore it's capabilities.
I would really appreciate some first-hand feedback on that unit.

Thanks,
-brino


----------



## ACHiPo

amesgang said:


> I am looking at a multi process welder from Eastwood, great reviews and warranty.
> Eastwood MP200i Multi Process Welder


Looks like a nice unit at a fantastic price (about half of the Miller 211 I'm looking at!).  Look forward to a review!


----------



## Rustrp

I need to get home so as succinctly as possible. Wood cutting tools are for wood and metal cutting tools are for metal. There are exceptions to every rule. I have a Rigid 12" sliding compound miter that has only cut aluminum with WD-40 as a lubricant. For the standard tubing and solid stock cutting under 1"  (steel) I have a Jancy cold saw I purchased about a year ago and I have hundreds of cuts on the original blade, cutting up to 2" x 2" x .250"  tube. If you bury the blade across the flat side of 2" tubing, you will heat up and toast the blade. Speed/feed applies in everything you cut. On stainless steel tube, the most I can get is about 35-40 cuts without destroying the blade. The coldsaw carbide tip blades can be resharpened for about 1/3 the cost of new. The positive side of coldsaw vs. abrasive chop saw is the quality of cuts and no obnoxious dust or sparks. Cheap abrasive blades are that. 

In regard to welding machines; Miller and Lincoln have really nice MP machines that run all the processes, based on welder experience. Just because the weld parameters are displayed on a DRO, you can get stuck MIG welding like any other task. A good MP machine set up for MIG with a 5# spool of NR 211 is the least expensive way to start out. Duty Cycle in a welder is a clue to quality. A 30% duty cycle means you get to use it 3 out of every 10 minutes before you have to allow it to cool down.    

In regard to the addiction associated with metal working equipment, I'll close with; Dad, how long do welding machines last? Well, if you take care of them they last a long time. Then how come you have so many? Son, I think you've been talking to your mom again.


----------



## ACHiPo

Rustrp said:


> I need to get home so as succinctly as possible. Wood cutting tools are for wood and metal cutting tools are for metal. There are exceptions to every rule. I have a Rigid 12" sliding compound miter that has only cut aluminum with WD-40 as a lubricant. For the standard tubing and solid stock cutting under 1"  (steel) I have a Jancy cold saw I purchased about a year ago and I have hundreds of cuts on the original blade, cutting up to 2" x 2" x .250"  tube. If you bury the blade across the flat side of 2" tubing, you will heat up and toast the blade. Speed/feed applies in everything you cut. On stainless steel tube, the most I can get is about 35-40 cuts without destroying the blade. The coldsaw carbide tip blades can be resharpened for about 1/3 the cost of new. The positive side of coldsaw vs. abrasive chop saw is the quality of cuts and no obnoxious dust or sparks. Cheap abrasive blades are that.


I've given up on any idea I had to pop an abrasive saw blade on my Dewalt compound miter saw.  Will go with a tuned-up (and better bladed) HF 4x6 bandsaw.  I always have an angle grinder with cut-off blades if I need abrasive cutting.  

When you say "cold saw", do you mean a carbide-bladed chop saw http://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...kkx_esRKTZN2s_g8YrhJGqpW3CnzjJpvaQaAr9d8P8HAQ, or one of the mega-buck true cold saws http://www.jegs.com/i/JET+Tools/526...tGYQ3ZIVNd92a7JhtHAKouHltrylKDoNwEaAlXJ8P8HAQ?



Rustrp said:


> In regard to welding machines; Miller and Lincoln have really nice MP machines that run all the processes, based on welder experience. Just because the weld parameters are displayed on a DRO, you can get stuck MIG welding like any other task. A good MP machine set up for MIG with a 5# spool of NR 211 is the least expensive way to start out. Duty Cycle in a welder is a clue to quality. A 30% duty cycle means you get to use it 3 out of every 10 minutes before you have to allow it to cool down.


The Miller 211 I'm leaning toward has a 40% duty cycle.  Not sure what the MP200 or MP215 duty cycle is?



Rustrp said:


> In regard to the addiction associated with metal working equipment, I'll close with; Dad, how long do welding machines last? Well, if you take care of them they last a long time. Then how come you have so many? Son, I think you've been talking to your mom again.


----------



## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> I've given up on any idea I had to pop an abrasive saw blade on my Dewalt compound miter saw.  Will go with a tuned-up (and better bladed) HF 4x6 bandsaw.  I always have an angle grinder with cut-off blades if I need abrasive cutting.
> 
> When you say "cold saw", do you mean a carbide-bladed chop saw http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200641810_200641810?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Power Tools > Saws + Accessories&utm_campaign=Ironton&utm_content=46461&gclid=Cj0KEQiA9P7FBRCtoO33_LGUtPQBEiQAU_tBgFIXHQooEkkx_esRKTZN2s_g8YrhJGqpW3CnzjJpvaQaAr9d8P8HAQ, or one of the mega-buck true cold saws http://www.jegs.com/i/JET+Tools/526...tGYQ3ZIVNd92a7JhtHAKouHltrylKDoNwEaAlXJ8P8HAQ?
> 
> 
> The Miller 211 I'm leaning toward has a 40% duty cycle.  Not sure what the MP200 or MP215 duty cycle is?


Mega bucks is relative to income.  I was referring to cold cut saw in the abrasive chop saw line up, or the metal cutting saws with carbide teeth blades.
The standard abrasive chopsaw turns at about 2500-2800 RPM. The saws using carbide teeth are high torque turning at 1400-1450 RPM. Since I don't do this for a hobby from an income point of view, I chose quality and most of the metal cutting saws are all close to $500 with the blades at $100. All carbide teeth are not equal. The Evolution blade I have has been sharpened once already and I'm still using the Jancy blade with 200+ or more cuts. Of course I can't rule out a chipped tooth on the Evolution which will take out the next two or three. 

If I were choosing an inexpensive horizontal band saw I would go with an Ellis. Understanding this is a hobby for you then the next best thing is to spend the money for good blades. I think Bob already called out a few brands but my go to for years has been Lenox. Again, speed/feed/teeth per inch/coolant. I'm fortunate to have business acquaintances who have CNC saws I can use and buy a blade occasionally.

The Miller or the Lincoln welders will suit your needs. I mentioned duty cycle because it's overlooked and most of the cheap imports overrate their duty cycles. If you're running .024 solid wire and need to weld something heavier that a 1/16" just use a propane torch to preheat. It's possible to pass a destructive bend test on 1" plate with the small machine, but it isn't a practical choice and again duty cycle comes into play. If you wish to go with the welder without purchasing the shielding gas bottle, flow meter (I prefer flow meter over a gauge), hoses etc. you can go with the self-shield (fluxcore) and shave off a few hundred $$. The fluxcore isn't as clean but it produces a good weld and has better penetration. 

You can never have to many welding machines.  In my defense; GMAW (MIG/Fluxcore) process uses CV current and SMAW/GTAW (Stick/Tig) process uses CC current.


----------



## Tony Wells

ACHiPo said:


> <snip>  Another big plus--the gas bottle will fit in my trunk which eases my concern about not having a truck. <snip>



Big no-no there. At least here the understanding of DOT regulations disallow pressurized cylinders in enclosed vehicles. I am imagining it really applies to fuel gases, but no LWS will sell you a bottle of any gas to put in your car....trunk or back seat.


----------



## Holescreek

First ive heard of that. I deal with 2 welding shops for oxy/acet, argon and c02 and neither one has ever mentioned it being a problem when I load the tanks into my car.  Maybe it's an extension of don't ask - don't tell.


----------



## ACHiPo

Tony Wells said:


> Big no-no there. At least here the understanding of DOT regulations disallow pressurized cylinders in enclosed vehicles. I am imagining it really applies to fuel gases, but no LWS will sell you a bottle of any gas to put in your car....trunk or back seat.


Was wondering about that, but the welding shop seemed quite confident.  If there's a restriction on gas cylinder transportation, how do people deal with O2 bottles for healthcare?  Surely they can be transported in an enclosed vehicle?  Is there a size below which it's ok?


----------



## ACHiPo

Rustrp said:


> Mega bucks is relative to income.  I was referring to cold cut saw in the abrasive chop saw line up, or the metal cutting saws with carbide teeth blades.
> The standard abrasive chopsaw turns at about 2500-2800 RPM. The saws using carbide teeth are high torque turning at 1400-1450 RPM. Since I don't do this for a hobby from an income point of view, I chose quality and most of the metal cutting saws are all close to $500 with the blades at $100. All carbide teeth are not equal. The Evolution blade I have has been sharpened once already and I'm still using the Jancy blade with 200+ or more cuts. Of course I can't rule out a chipped tooth on the Evolution which will take out the next two or three.



The thought of a cold saw (consumer version carbide blade) is much more attractive than an abrasive saw, but I think a little bandsaw is best for my needs right now.



Rustrp said:


> If I were choosing an inexpensive horizontal band saw I would go with an Ellis. Understanding this is a hobby for you then the next best thing is to spend the money for good blades. I think Bob already called out a few brands but my go to for years has been Lenox. Again, speed/feed/teeth per inch/coolant. I'm fortunate to have business acquaintances who have CNC saws I can use and buy a blade occasionally.


Will check out the Ellis.  A good blade is definitely on my list.  I like Mike's modification to his HF saw--seems like a decent, big table and some improved/tweaked guides would go a long way toward making it a good saw.




Rustrp said:


> The Miller or the Lincoln welders will suit your needs. I mentioned duty cycle because it's overlooked and most of the cheap imports overrate their duty cycles. If you're running .024 solid wire and need to weld something heavier that a 1/16" just use a propane torch to preheat. It's possible to pass a destructive bend test on 1" plate with the small machine, but it isn't a practical choice and again duty cycle comes into play. If you wish to go with the welder without purchasing the shielding gas bottle, flow meter (I prefer flow meter over a gauge), hoses etc. you can go with the self-shield (fluxcore) and shave off a few hundred $$. The fluxcore isn't as clean but it produces a good weld and has better penetration.



I definitely want shield gas.  I was hoping I could get away with just Ar, but it seems a mix is necessary for steel to get a consistent arc.


----------



## Tony Wells

Probably a "turn their back so they don't see" and therefore aren't responsible. If they load it for you, it might change things.


----------



## Tony Wells

ACHiPo said:


> Was wondering about that, but the welding shop seemed quite confident.  If there's a restriction on gas cylinder transportation, how do people deal with O2 bottles for healthcare?  Surely they can be transported in an enclosed vehicle?  Is there a size below which it's ok?



I've wondered about that too, as well as plumbers and AC guys who carry small torch sets in vans. I've never asked, since I don't have a small set. well, I inherited a "b" bottle of a Prestolite torch set. My uncle only had a work van to transport it, so it may have something to do with size. I'll find out when I use it up I suppose, though I will probably be in my work truck. I'll ask for clarification and whether it is policy or regulations....or some combination.


----------



## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> The thought of a cold saw (consumer version carbide blade) is much more attractive than an abrasive saw, but I think a little bandsaw is best for my needs right now.
> 
> 
> Will check out the Ellis.  A good blade is definitely on my list.  I like Mike's modification to his HF saw--seems like a decent, big table and some improved/tweaked guides would go a long way toward making it a good saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I definitely want shield gas.  I was hoping I could get away with just Ar, but it seems a mix is necessary for steel to get a consistent arc.



The standard shielding gas for steel is 75/25 (Argon 75%/CO2 25%) You can also use straight CO2 but you don't get the arc stability on thinner materials. That's the other $$$ hole. Do I buy, lease or rent a bottle, and how many do I need.


----------



## T. J.

Tony Wells said:


> Probably a "turn their back so they don't see" and therefore aren't responsible. If they load it for you, it might change things.



My supplier won't load it for you if it's going into the cab of the vehicle.


----------



## ACHiPo

Rustrp said:


> The standard shielding gas for steel is 75/25 (Argon 75%/CO2 25%) You can also use straight CO2 but you don't get the arc stability on thinner materials. That's the other $$$ hole. Do I buy, lease or rent a bottle, and how many do I need.


Yeah, and I need 100% Ar if I want to weld aluminum.


----------



## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> Yeah, and I need 100% Ar if I want to weld aluminum.


I thought you were looking at the Miller 211, so are you saying you are going with the spool gun also? Maybe you just haven't decided yet.


----------



## ACHiPo

Rustrp said:


> I thought you were looking at the Miller 211, so are you saying you are going with the spool gun also? Maybe you just haven't decided yet.


Did I mention I don't know what I don't know?

Yes, I'd need to get a spool gun if I do Al, and I'm not sure how well MIG welding Al works (or if I'd be better off learning TIG when/if I weld Al), so it may be a moot point.  It's just I doubt I'll use a whole lot of gas, so having a single cylinder for everything would be convenient (yet physics often isn't).


----------



## RandyM

ACHiPo said:


> Did I mention I don't know what I don't know?
> 
> Yes, I'd need to get a spool gun if I do Al, and *I'm not sure how well MIG welding Al works* (or if I'd be better off learning TIG when/if I weld Al), so it may be a moot point.  It's just I doubt I'll use a whole lot of gas, so having a single cylinder for everything would be convenient (yet physics often isn't).



My Miller 210 is set up with the spool gun and I weld aluminum all the time. The problem with MIG is that is not very good for the thin stuff. You have to be careful with anything less than 1/8th in thick, you'll burn right through it. With practice you can get what I call very acceptable looking welds. They will never look like TIG or production welds. It is all a matter of what you are trying to do.


----------



## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> Did I mention I don't know what I don't know?
> 
> Yes, I'd need to get a spool gun if I do Al, and I'm not sure how well MIG welding Al works (or if I'd be better off learning TIG when/if I weld Al), so it may be a moot point.  It's just I doubt I'll use a whole lot of gas, so having a single cylinder for everything would be convenient (yet physics often isn't).



MIG aluminum isn't difficult in material 1/8" and up, it's hot and fast but a common problem for some is the wire burnback into the contact. If you're not welding a lot of aluminum then I would stay with TIG. This still leaves you with the two bottle situation for gas, but it opens up the door to TIG stainless. For a beginner who wants experience in all the processes I would recommend a multi-purpose machine. The downside in the MP is you can get a lot invested in order to do the things you want. I read negative results for the MP's on SMAW (stick) but the days of beginners yearning to stick weld have passed. 

FYI: Most of the aluminum tanker trucks you see on the road are MIG welded. Granted, most are done with a robot but they are MIG. Some parts and pieces may be TIG but that a lot of metal to deposit by hand.


----------



## RandyM

Here is an example of my Aluminum MIG welding. As I am not only a hobby machinist, I am also a hobby welder. This example is not my finest work, but completely functional and acceptable for my projects. If I want really pretty, I can grind and polish.

MIG Aluminum Example


----------



## ACHiPo

I picked up a MIG set up with accessories yesterday:  Miller 211, cart, tank of 75/25, helmet, jacket, gloves, angle magnet clamps, etc.  Also ordered a 4x6 HF bandsaw.  Those should keep me out of the pool hall for a while.

Got everything assembled.  Realized while I have 220, it's only 15A, so will need to run 110V until I can get a new circuit pulled.  I suppose I could get a 15A plug for the welder--it just might blow the breaker if I'm running all out.


----------



## GarageGuy

ACHiPo said:


> Those should keep me out of the pool hall for a while.



That would work for me too.  I would much rather weld and machine than play pool.  

GG


----------



## ACHiPo

GarageGuy said:


> That would work for me too.  I would much rather weld and machine than play pool.
> 
> GG


Hopefully I'm a better welder than pool player!


----------



## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> View attachment 228502
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I picked up a MIG set up with accessories yesterday:  Miller 211, cart, tank of 75/25, helmet, jacket, gloves, angle magnet clamps, etc.  Also ordered a 4x6 HF bandsaw.  Those should keep me out of the pool hall for a while.
> 
> Got everything assembled.  Realized while I have 220, it's only 15A, so will need to run 110V until I can get a new circuit pulled.  I suppose I could get a 15A plug for the welder--it just might blow the breaker if I'm running all out.



The plus side of MIG welding is it doesn't take as much amperage. The plus side of the inverter over the transformer  is it takes even less amperage and you can use multiple voltages. The negative side of the inverter is their shorter lifespan. I'm guessing before this unit needs CPR you will be on to a bigger machine.


----------



## BFHammer

[QUOTE="I picked up a MIG set up with accessories yesterday:  Miller 211, cart, tank of 75/25, helmet, jacket, gloves, angle magnet clamps, etc.  Also ordered a 4x6 HF bandsaw.  Those should keep me out of the pool hall for a while.

Got everything assembled.  Realized while I have 220, it's only 15A, so will need to run 110V until I can get a new circuit pulled.  I suppose I could get a 15A plug for the welder--it just might blow the breaker if I'm running all out.[/QUOTE]

I have the same welder and I love it.  Never really used it on 110 but it's a smooth machine.  I've found that I don't really use the auto-set very much - I get better results from the chart.  The only thing I would change is I'm considering the 15ft  gun as opposed to the standard 10ft.  The feed design on these newer machines will handle the longer distance without a problem.  

Like many others here I also have the HF 4x6 - just clean the sand out of it, put a decent blade on it and you will be good to go.  Of course you'll want to use your new welder to build a better stand for it!

Enjoy!


----------



## ACHiPo

Holescreek said:


> First ive heard of that. I deal with 2 welding shops for oxy/acet, argon and c02 and neither one has ever mentioned it being a problem when I load the tanks into my car.  Maybe it's an extension of don't ask - don't tell.


By the way, the welding supply guy loaded the cylinder into my hatchback without a question.  Says they do it all the time.


----------



## ACHiPo

Starrett 64 1/2" bi-metal 14/18 and 10/14 blades ordered.


----------



## cathead

My thought on chop saws:  You cant trust them...  There is all that centrifugal force built up and if something binds
the blade can disintegrate and do a lot of damage to the operator.  Maybe it would be OK for small rods or something
but I can do just fine without one.  Also, a chop saw spews abrasive and hot particles which is somewhat hazardous.
I find myself using a hack saw for the small jobs, much safer.


----------



## ACHiPo

cathead said:


> My thought on chop saws:  You cant trust them...  There is all that centrifugal force built up and if something binds
> the blade can disintegrate and do a lot of damage to the operator.  Maybe it would be OK for small rods or something
> but I can do just fine without one.  Also, a chop saw spews abrasive and hot particles which is somewhat hazardous.
> I find myself using a hack saw for the small jobs, much safer.


Decided not to try to trust a chop saw.  Band saw and Starrett 14/18 and 10/14 blades on order.


----------



## Eremius

RandyM said:


> They will never look like TIG or production welds.


In my experience "not looking like production welds" would be a goal to aspire to...


----------



## ACHiPo

Here's a brief update.  I did some MIG practice over the weekend, and the beads look pretty ugly.  They did, however, significantly improve.  Other than the obvious speed/feed issues, I'm also getting a lot of porosity on the top surface.  I remember seeing something about what causes that, but I can't remember.  I did learn that just because everything goes dark doesn't mean I've blown a fuse--I have an auto-darkening helmet.





The HF band saw arrived tonight, as did the 44" tool chest.  I haven't unpacked the band saw, but the tool chest is pretty impressive.  It will make a nice home for my Gerstner chests and Reed vise.


----------



## mikey

I haven't seen a spending spree like this in a long time, ACHiPo! I'll say this; when you get into a hobby, you don't fool around!!


----------



## bss1

The porosity usually comes from a lack of shielding gas coverage. Assuming your using hard wire and  75/25 gas, make sure your regulator is set for around 12 to 15 CFH.  12 should be plenty.


----------



## mikey

Porosity can also be due to holding the gun too far away from the weld, holding the gun at the wrong angle (>5-15 degrees from perpendicular), welding in a draft so the gas dissipates, contaminants in the weld, a bad regulator or hose, plugged up gun from spatter, etc. Lots of things can do this. Probably the most common are the gun being too far from the work and/or held at the wrong angle. It takes awhile to learn how to coordinate your hands. 

Hang in there; it will come.


----------



## ACHiPo

mikey said:


> I haven't seen a spending spree like this in a long time, ACHiPo! I'll say this; when you get into a hobby, you don't fool around!!




Yeah, I do tend to obsess a bit...


----------



## ACHiPo

bss1 said:


> The porosity usually comes from a lack of shielding gas coverage. Assuming your using hard wire and  75/25 gas, make sure your regulator is set for around 12 to 15 CFH.  12 should be plenty.


I'm using 75/25.  The regulator just measures pressure--I don't have a flow gauge.  I've got the pressure set a little above 30 psig.  Next time I fire it up I'll have to make sure I'm getting flow out the nozzle.  I can add a rotometer, but doubt I need one.


----------



## ACHiPo

mikey said:


> Porosity can also be due to holding the gun too far away from the weld, holding the gun at the wrong angle (>5-15 degrees from perpendicular), welding in a draft so the gas dissipates, contaminants in the weld, a bad regulator or hose, plugged up gun from spatter, etc. Lots of things can do this. Probably the most common are the gun being too far from the work and/or held at the wrong angle. It takes awhile to learn how to coordinate your hands.
> 
> Hang in there; it will come.


I'm sure the angle is not as consistent as it needs to be--I noticed when I paid more attention to it my beads got better.  I'm welding on a concrete garage floor, so not much issue with air currents, but ergonomics leave a lot to be desired.  I'm using the MIG pliers to set my wire length so it should be correct.  I need to confirm the flow--I can only measure pressure.


----------



## Groundhog

Be careful welding on concrete. It can get hot enough to pop chunks back at you. (My guess is that trapped moisture expands).


----------



## bss1

ACHiPo said:


> I'm using 75/25.  The regulator just measures pressure--I don't have a flow gauge.  I've got the pressure set a little above 30 psig.  Next time I fire it up I'll have to make sure I'm getting flow out the nozzle.  I can add a rotometer, but doubt I need one.



30 is too high. 12 to 15 should be sufficient. You should be able to hear and feel the gas coming out. My machine has a purge setting that allows purging the lines or air and filling with gas before welding. If I don't purge at the beginning of a session, the start of my weld will look like yours. If you don't have a purge setting, you can release tension on the drive or turn wire feed to 0 and pull the trigger to purge. But since all of your welds have the porosity,  I think there is an issue with a lack of shielding gas coverage. It could be due to the issues Mikey stated, but something is wrong with the coverage.  Also if you are welding on hot rolled steel, you will need to grind off all of the mill scale to get the best looking welds. Make sure you are getting a good ground.  At first, try sticking with the settings on the door chart as someone else mentioned and see if that helps. Try holding your torch closer to the work piece also. 

That is a real nice machine and you will get it figured out soon. 

Brad


----------



## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> Here's a brief update.  I did some MIG practice over the weekend, and the beads look pretty ugly.  They did, however, significantly improve.  Other than the obvious speed/feed issues, I'm also getting a lot of porosity on the top surface.  I remember seeing something about what causes that, but I can't remember.  I did learn that just because everything goes dark doesn't mean I've blown a fuse--I have an auto-darkening helmet.
> View attachment 229365
> 
> View attachment 229366
> 
> 
> The HF band saw arrived tonight, as did the 44" tool chest.  I haven't unpacked the band saw, but the tool chest is pretty impressive.  It will make a nice home for my Gerstner chests and Reed vise.


I think it's your helmet.


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## ACHiPo

bss1 said:


> 30 is too high. 12 to 15 should be sufficient. You should be able to hear and feel the gas coming out. My machine has a purge setting that allows purging the lines or air and filling with gas before welding. If I don't purge at the beginning of a session, the start of my weld will look like yours. If you don't have a purge setting, you can release tension on the drive or turn wire feed to 0 and pull the trigger to purge. But since all of your welds have the porosity,  I think there is an issue with a lack of shielding gas coverage. It could be due to the issues Mikey stated, but something is wrong with the coverage.  Also if you are welding on hot rolled steel, you will need to grind off all of the mill scale to get the best looking welds. Make sure you are getting a good ground.  At first, try sticking with the settings on the door chart as someone else mentioned and see if that helps. Try holding your torch closer to the work piece also.
> 
> That is a real nice machine and you will get it figured out soon.
> 
> Brad


Brad,
It is 30 psig, not 30 CFH.  Not purging could definitely be an issue--I didn't do anything other than install the spool, feed wire, and start.  I ground/sanded the area I was using to practice on, so I don't think it's from contaminated steel.

I'll play around more this weekend and see what happens.


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## dlane

Looks like air getting in there to me. 
I bought my bottles lifetime lease $$$ not rented 30+ years ago from Airgas in Austin Tx , didn't pay to much attention when exchanging them at other supply shops there or Arkansas over the years.
Turns out at some point they were changed out with rental bottles, "receipt long gone "
Here in cali they're telling me I have rental bottles and want$$$ to fill them . 
Moral of story , check the ring on top of bottle before and after exchange , don't let them switch 
rentals have co name stamped into them , 
Lifetime lease bottles the ring is blank.


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## Rustrp

My first guess on the porosity when using solid wire is shielding gas. I think I mentioned a flowmeter somewhere in this discussion. In 99.9% 0f the cases you can rule out the gas flow through the gauge if you have a flowmeter. I saw your comment on psig/cfh and if your low pressure gauge is marked psig then it's probably a cheap knock off Radnor. CFH/cubic feet per hour is the correct way to measure flow. How much flow is based on who's paying for the gas, you or the employer.  Tig welding is usually done with 12-15 CFH and MIG is 25-30 CFH. You should be able to feel the flow if you put the nozzle close to your face. If your machine doesn't have a purge mode, zero out the wire feed speed and pull the trigger. Another way would be to put the tip of the nozzle in a cup of water.

Cross draft is always a factor when you use shielding gas.

PS. My guess is if it came in the box with all the accessories it's a Miller regulator/flow gauge, but the flow rate side should be measured in LPM/CFH.


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## ACHiPo

dlane said:


> Looks like air getting in there to me.
> I bought my bottles lifetime lease $$$ not rented 30+ years ago from Airgas in Austin Tx , didn't pay to much attention when exchanging them at other supply shops there or Arkansas over the years.
> Turns out at some point they were changed out with rental bottles, "receipt long gone "
> Here in cali they're telling me I have rental bottles and want$$$ to fill them .
> Moral of story , check the ring on top of bottle before and after exchange , don't let them switch
> rentals have co name stamped into them ,
> Lifetime lease bottles the ring is blank.


The gas shop told me I own the bottle, but they will refill or exchange it for a few bucks (I think $30?)


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## ACHiPo

Rustrp said:


> You should be able to feel the flow if you put the nozzle close to your face. If your machine doesn't have a purge mode, zero out the wire feed speed and pull the trigger. Another way would be to put the tip of the nozzle in a cup of water.


All good suggestions.  Thanks!


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## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> All good suggestions.  Thanks!


Your machine has auto or manual setup. For you as a beginner I suggest going with the auto setup, then adjust your voltage towards the low range for the voltage setting. I'm guessing in the auto mode the wire speed (amperage) is set, and other than the porosity the weld looks too hot. Check the parameters inside the door for volt/amperage (wfs) settings for the wire. The corner joint you chose isn't the best place for you to begin practice.  Try flat first then work on other joint designs/configurations. I'm not goint to steer you wrong. Understanding what those two knobs (settings) on the front of your machine so and how they affect the weld bead is important. I talked my son through a welding problem a few weeks ago. The question of which way do I turn the knob becomes easy once you understand their purpose. I got a verbal description over the phone and a few minutes later a photo.

In regards to shielding gas; Make sure the gun is installed correctly, no o-rings are missing and the hose from the gas solenoid is connected. Occasionally they miss a QC step. Pull the trigger when you set the gas flow, it gives a more accurate flow rate, even if you can't see it. On most gauges the needle will rise when you release the trigger so you want to know what's being delivered as you weld.


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## BFHammer

I have the same machine that you just purchased.  Based on my experience I think bss1 and Rustrp are on the problem.  It looks like a shielding gas issue.  If the metal is clean to start with (no mill scale) then lack of shielding gas is the first probable cause for the porosity.

I'm don't know how to compare PSI to CFH - with my machine 15 CFH seems to be the sweet spot.  If your LWS store is convenient I would stop by and "trade" them that regulator for a good flowmeter.


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## BFHammer

I may have missed it in an earlier post, but are you running the machine on 110 or 220?  And as suggested above are you sure that your setting are matched with the input voltage?


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## ACHiPo

BFHammer said:


> I may have missed it in an earlier post, but are you running the machine on 110 or 220?  And as suggested above are you sure that your setting are matched with the input voltage?


I'm running 220V.  It sounds like I've got a shield gas issue.  I'll troubleshoot this weekend unless I get home unusually early tonight.


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## ACHiPo

BFHammer said:


> I have the same machine that you just purchased.  Based on my experience I think bss1 and Rustrp are on the problem.  It looks like a shielding gas issue.  If the metal is clean to start with (no mill scale) then lack of shielding gas is the first probable cause for the porosity.
> 
> I'm don't know how to compare PSI to CFH - with my machine 15 CFH seems to be the sweet spot.  If your LWS store is convenient I would stop by and "trade" them that regulator for a good flowmeter.


You're making me wonder if I misread the gauge--it looked like a pressure regulator gauge, but it may be calibrated for flow?  I'll take another look.


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## Rustrp

BFHammer said:


> I have the same machine that you just purchased.  Based on my experience I think bss1 and Rustrp are on the problem.  It looks like a shielding gas issue.  If the metal is clean to start with (no mill scale) then lack of shielding gas is the first probable cause for the porosity.
> 
> I'm don't know how to compare PSI to CFH - with my machine 15 CFH seems to be the sweet spot.  If your LWS store is convenient I would stop by and "trade" them that regulator for a good flowmeter.


I agree that 15cfh will suffice but the $$ saved on the difference between 15 & 25 isn't worth a compromised weld. I know I'm approaching this from a business standpoint of time is money. 

The mill scale on his test pieces isn't enough to cause the porosity he's getting but I agree, removing it does improve weld quality.


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## ACHiPo

Just called the welding supply store--the regulator is indeed calibrated in flow, not pressure, so I'm running way too high.  Will try turning it down (as well as make sure that it is indeed flowing).


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## Rustrp

BFHammer said:


> I may have missed it in an earlier post, but are you running the machine on 110 or 220?  And as suggested above are you sure that your setting are matched with the input voltage?



The newer 211 has a rectifier power source and can use 110 or 220, but I'm not sure if the older transformer powered units have the same MP advantage.


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## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> Just called the welding supply store--the regulator is indeed calibrated in flow, not pressure, so I'm running way too high.  Will try turning it down (as well as make sure that it is indeed flowing).


It is possible to get porosity with the gas turned up to high which would cause turbulence and pull the surrounding air into the weld area. That's the theory but I have never seen it and I can guarantee the porosity in your photo isn't caused by the flow rate being too high.


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## ACHiPo

Rustrp said:


> It is possible to get porosity with the gas turned up to high which would cause turbulence and pull the surrounding air into the weld area. That's the theory but I have never seen it and I can guarantee the porosity in your photo isn't caused by the flow rate being too high.


I need to get out to the shop to figure out what's going on.  Maybe tonight.


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## ACHiPo

Got it sorted!  Confirmed no leaks anywhere (there was still gauge pressure/flow registered), then fired up the welder and advanced the wire--no hissing.  Sure enough the pressure/flow was 0 when the trigger was depressed.  Keeping the trigger down, I cranked up the regulator to 18 CFH and confirmed hissing.  Results were much better.  I still have a lot to learn and practice, but the beads are at least beads and not pumice!  I also got the steel up off the ground.  The first bead is at the top, the last at the bottom.  In addition to my lack of skill, getting a straight, consistent bead sitting on the ground ain't easy.



Now to get the band saw sorted!


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## Rustrp

ACHiPo said:


> In addition to my lack of skill, getting a straight, consistent bead sitting on the ground ain't easy.



So the first project coming up is a work bench.  Looking good! You didn't comment on the wire size but I'm guessing .024"-.030".  Keep us posted on the progress.


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## ACHiPo

Rustrp said:


> So the first project coming up is a work bench.  Looking good! You didn't comment on the wire size but I'm guessing .024"-.030".  Keep us posted on the progress.


0.30" wire.  Yes, a welding table (workbench) is next.  Then a mobile base for my lathe bench.


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## LarryJ

ACHiPo said:


> As the title says, now that I've dipped my toe into the metal working pool by buying a Logan 816, I'm thinking of all the cool things I want to make (like an angle iron base for the lathe bench that I can put retractable caster/feet), and I'm thinking I "need" a MIG welder, and of course some way to cut up the stock to weld, so I "need" a chop saw.  Then I discovered how cool plasma cutters are.
> 
> You get the idea.



I'm a newb who hasn't yet spent much money on metalworking tools, so I understand exactly what you're talking about.




ACHiPo said:


> I've got an under-used 12" Dewalt compound miter saw for wood.  The research I've seen says don't try to use wood miter saws as metal chop saws, but...what's the worst (ok, worst most probable) thing that could happen if I pop a composition blade onto the Dewalt to get me by until I decide if I really like the welding fabrication stuff?



The worst that could happen with a toothed blade is that a tooth could come off and impale you.  The worst with a comp blade is that you start fires in the shop from the massive amount of sparks they create, breathe in the nasty compounds of the blade and get emphysema and die.  Another (much better) choice is a cold saw, and those are pricy.  HFT (Harbor Fright) has a faster metal-only circular saw which runs at a much higher speed but is said to work pretty well.  Dewally also builds them, so look at those.




ACHiPo said:


> Are plasma cutters really the bomb-diggety, especially if I'm running a 4.2 CFM @ 90 psi compressor?



A friend has a plasma cutter and they're really neat.  Since he's only half an hour away, I can't condone the expense (now retired with lower income) of a cutter, so I use his when my hacksaw or HFT metal bandsaw won't do the proper trick.  Find a friend with a plasma setup and feed him consumables for the use of his cutter.




ACHiPo said:


> Also, what are folks' experience with welders?  I definitely want a MIG, as it seems really pretty approachable.  Miller (and probably others) make multi-purpose welders that will do MIG, stick, and TIG for not a whole lot of money, but my gut feeling is that they do none of the above particularly well.  https://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc....Kdoo2Elhv0MeB65DrS-ZB1BPbujcI7tXSgaArKS8P8HAQ
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



I'm absolutely sold on TIG, myself.  Just last week, I found myself eyeing an AC/DC inverter TIG/SMAW unit for $500.  It would replace my HFT DC-only TIG/SMAW, which I could sell and recoup some of the cost.

I looked at the $6-800 do-it-all TIG/SMAW/Plasma cutter units and feel similar  JOAT/MON probabilities.  But that Miller (at Miller prices!) might not be bad.  Why are you so sold on MIG?  It's soooo easy to make a good looking bad weld with them that I've always felt ambiguous about them.  I wrenched for a body and frame shop so I saw high-end MIG weldors at work, so I know it can be good, but I tried the nice Miller and Lincoln MIGs and found out how easily the bead can fool you if you don't keep a close eye on your penetration.  Another friend had the spare tire from his trailer pass him on the freeway once.  OOPS!

So, there's the view from the bottom.


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## FOMOGO

I think MIG is most peoples go to machine because it's easy to learn on, is fast if your doing a large project, or production work, gives a nice looking weld if your using gas, with very little clean up, and if done properly has plenty of penetration. TIG makes for an excellent weld on many different materials, but requires a much higher degree of skill, high initial and consumables cost, and just isn't really required for most hobbyist  needs. Can't say I've ever had a MIG weld fail, and I've been doing for more years than I care to think about. Having said all that, I have a nice TIG set up, and I'm looking forward to getting good at it for the jobs that require it. Mike


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## ACHiPo

Well, I guess I'm officially a welder!  A neighbor snapped off a bolt that held the windshield on his golf cart.  He brought over the cart, and a little kiss from the angle grinder, a couple tacks, and he was on his way.  I even got "paid"--half case of Bud--didn't have the heart to tell him I gave up beer, and it did taste mighty good!


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## ACHiPo

Oh, and I got the bandsaw running.


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## Glenn Brooks

I thought about MIG, but for $100 bucks settled on a nice Lincoln tombstone AC/DC stick welder.  DC Negative and 6011 rod  works perfect on junk yard steel - which it seems, most of us are conisouerers of....

So saved $900 or more NOT buying the quickee bead making machine, and fab up to my hearts content what ever comes my way.  OK, it takes a couple of boxes of rod to brush up on technique, but the more proficient I get, the better the bead and the less the spallter and clean up.  And with stick, pretty much - learn the correct amperage for good penetration, develop decent technique (which you have to do anyway with any welding process) and your welds will be golden.

Here's my stick welded 12" ga, 11' LOA, miniature railroad  turntable structure, almost ready for installation.


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## ACHiPo

Glenn Brooks said:


> I thought about MIG, but for $100 bucks settled on a nice Lincoln tombstone AC/DC stick welder.  DC Negative and 6011 rod  works perfect on junk yard steel - which it seems, most of us are conisouerers of....
> 
> So saved $900 or more NOT buying the quickee bead making machine, and fab up to my hearts content what ever comes my way.  OK, it takes a couple of boxes of rod to brush up on technique, but the more proficient I get, the better the bead and the less the spallter and clean up.  And with stick, pretty much - learn the correct amperage for good penetration, develop decent technique (which you have to do anyway with any welding process) and your welds will be golden.
> 
> Here's my stick welded 12" ga, 11' LOA, miniature railroad  turntable structure, almost ready for installation.
> 
> View attachment 231037


I watched my dad do some stick welding, mostly on farm equipment, but I never tried it.  I got pretty good at brazing with an oxy-acetylene set up.  This MIG is by far easier than gas to learn, although I still have a ways to go to get my technique down.


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## GarageGuy

Glenn Brooks said:


> I thought about MIG, but for $100 bucks settled on a nice Lincoln tombstone AC/DC stick welder.  DC Negative and 6011 rod  works perfect on junk yard steel - which it seems, most of us are conisouerers of....



$100 for a Lincoln AC/DC tombstone is an incredible price.  They are excellent machines.  In various conditions, they go used for $400-$500 here.  We joke about most of our metal being "unknown-ium".  Even the guy at the metal supply got a chuckle out of it.



Glenn Brooks said:


> Here's my stick welded 12" ga, 11' LOA, miniature railroad  turntable structure, almost ready for installation.



Wow, I would love to see your railroad!  Please post photos in a new thread in the projects forum!

GG


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## Glenn Brooks

ACHiPo said:


> I watched my dad do some stick welding, mostly on farm equipment, but I never tried it.  I got pretty good at brazing with an oxy-acetylene set up.  This MIG is by far easier than gas to learn, although I still have a ways to go to get my technique down.



I learned stick on oxy acetylene. Community College welding class taught it this way. Pretty much the same technique - it's all about controlling the heat and the puddle. For the occasional welding project, I am happy with stick. Lots of smoke though, at times. So I usually turn of an exhaust fan and keep the doors open. 

Glenn


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