# Watchmakers/jewelers, Help Me Remember...



## Tony Wells (Oct 9, 2016)

On a standard workbench I have seen, there is a semi-circular cutout to give you a sort of surround while you are working. I like that. But I cannot for the life of me remember what the apron-like piece of leather or cloth that is draped between you and the bench, with the intention of catching all the tiny parts rather than lose them on the floor. What's it called?


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## mikey (Oct 9, 2016)

Tony Wells said:


> On a standard workbench I have seen, there is a semi-circular cutout to give you a sort of surround while you are working. I like that. But I cannot for the life of me remember what the apron-like piece of leather or cloth that is draped between you and the bench, with the intention of catching all the tiny parts rather than lose them on the floor. What's it called?



They're called bench aprons, basically catch trays for small parts, filings, etc.


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## HMF (Oct 10, 2016)

I don't use one. I work over the table.


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## Tony Wells (Oct 11, 2016)

So do I, but I ran across some nice plans for a jewelers workbench that included recommending using a split, soft leather apron. It seemed like a good idea. Kind of lets you relax and lean back once in a while with out worrying about little parts rolling off the bench, or gives you a fighting chance to catch small springs, etc. I can't find those plans now, unfortunately, but I was almost sure there was a traditional name for it besides apron.


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## HMF (Oct 11, 2016)

The NAWCC.org site will have it.


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## Tony Wells (Oct 11, 2016)

I found the site I believe where I found reference to it. It was a jewelers site. Ganoksin.com. It's a jewelers site primarily, but there is a wee bit of overlap with some timepieces actually more jewelry like than just a watch. Lots of tools, techniques, and tips for working with precious metals and gemstones. I think I found (haven't found it again) reference to the special apron in some member's comment on his own personal setup.

Unfortunately, with the nerve damage in my hands, along with the arthritis and failing eyesight, I have a feeling I have waited too long to be serious about horology. But clock parts are a lot different. I have every confidence I can still make clocks. So, like some old retired machinists turn to small engines, I probably will turn to timepieces. At least I can see most of the parts with out help. I'm not opposed to working under magnification, but I take it as a signal on where I am in my endeavors to pick up something fairly new to me.


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## HMF (Oct 12, 2016)

Ok, so this is an interest of mine. I can tell you just who to speak to. Al Takasch. He is in a chair and an expert clock maker and repairer. Look him up and drop him an email.


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## chips&more (Oct 12, 2016)

If you are not claustrophobic. I have always thought of a making a very small room with white colored walls and floor and with good lighting. A room maybe 4’ X 4’. That way, if any parts shoot off (don’t ask how I know this) they can’t go far.


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## Tony Wells (Oct 13, 2016)

Thanks for the contact Nelson. I'll get with him.

Chips, aside from the general purpose portion of the shop, which isn't all that large, compared to like Randy's or Paco's, I have roughly a 10 x 10 area set aside for electronics service/repair/building. I hate to think of it, but I may have to try and figure out a way to make that space workable for clock work too. As disorganized as it is currently, if you saw it you'd think it impossible, but when it is cleaned up, and I sell off some (all) of the duplicate instruments (who needs 3 scopes, 4 signal generators, 6 tube testers, 2 cap checkers, etc.?) there might be room to set up a small extra workbench with the lathe on it. Not sure what I'll do for gear making. I guess I could still use the rest of the shop when needed. At this point, that area is not walled off, but I have often thought of enclosing that area just to keep it clean, if nothing else. It might be a good idea if I start getting serious about timepiece work.


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## HMF (Oct 24, 2016)

I am an apprentice with a guy here. But clock machining is badly needed.  That is why I got the machines in the first place. Prices are high but understandably so for what it is. There are only a couple guys who make parts. You could make money doing this.


New wheels (gears), pinions, arbors, mainspring barrels with gears, sprint clicks, are all needed.


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## Tony Wells (Oct 24, 2016)

Guess I could design a dedicated wheel/gear machine and move out some of the bigger machines. If this leg doesn't give me some relief soon so I can get back to work, I'll have to. I can't use them all at the same time anyway. Not using any of them at the moment. 

That entire endeavor will take a lot of education and research. I've no doubt about making the parts, that's the easy part. Learning which parts to build, how things work on a very basic level is my weak point. A Horology course is out of the question, unfortunately. Too distant, too long, probably too late in life, and too expensive. So I'd be on my own, pretty much. But hey, I love a challenge.


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## HMF (Oct 24, 2016)

Fortunately,  you can learn at home. There are two courses an dvds. One by tope and one by tascione.  Tope  sells on ebay. Then NAWCC has a dvd library with hundreds of tapes. Then there is clockclass.com. And AL Takash on Ebay. He's a good guy and disabled.  Lives in NC now, moved from NYC.

You can do this.


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## HMF (Oct 24, 2016)

https://www.amazon.com/Clock-Repair-1-John-Tope/dp/1945014008

http://www.tascione.com/source.htm

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?66475-Tascione-Clock-Repair-Course

http://www.tascione.com/learntoturn1.htm

http://www.tascione.com/clock.html

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?33445-Repair-dvd-s


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## Tony Wells (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks Nelson....I will be looking into this, seriously. My old back isn't likely to ever let me do the work I used to do in the shop, the way it looks. I'll have to find some other work instead. I could consult, but I am pretty sure that would get old fast, and be very frustrating.


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## HMF (Oct 25, 2016)

Horological machining is something you can do, and it is needed.

Repair/replacement of mainspring barrel gears for example. The mainspring pops from age, and the power causes teeth from the mainspring to break and break off some teeth.
Sure, you can drill holes and make new teeth out of brass, but it sure would be nice to be able to get a new gear at a reasonable price.


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## Tony Wells (Oct 25, 2016)

The first question that comes to mind, without even looking into that particular piece, and would seemingly apply to many parts is....

Who makes any engineering drawings for these parts? I wouldn't expect to have any such thing for a very old timepiece, but does the sort of work you are talking about (majority) revolve around duplicating existing parts that are broken or worn out? I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that no two timepieces were ever identical, or even close enough for making anything like a drawing, save for a basic sketch to bring to functional performance by hand work.


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## HMF (Oct 25, 2016)

Yes, you are making broken and worn parts.

Sping clocks were mass produced. The parts were identical clock to clock. Same with most weight clocks. 

Often you will get the parts to reproduce.


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## Tony Wells (Oct 25, 2016)

Then in some cases the thing to do would be to carefully document and draw up accurate manufacturing drawings so these could be made at least partially ahead of time. Maybe only some critical features would need to wait and be matched. And I suppose the majority of the market would be clock makers to begin with, so they would have the capability and knowledge to finish as needed. Just that some features aren't critical and would be a tremendous time saver for that person. It doesn't seem like Joe Citizen would venture to repair his own antique clock.


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## HMF (Oct 26, 2016)

Yes, but do not over-complicate things.

Start with something easy like a pinion replacement. 
There are so many sites online, your head will spin:

http://www.clockworks.com/clock-movement/other-clock-movement.html

Contact Al Takasch. He is a good guy. Just moved from NYC to NC.
He's in a chair but does top flight repairs.


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## Tony Wells (Oct 26, 2016)

As normal for me, I do overcomplicate things. Then, are you saying that to get started in this, one way may be just to offer a "restoration" of sorts that involves more simply replacing the existing movements with these replicas? At those prices, it seems reasonable, as long as the customer signed off on it. Plus unless they wanted the old movement, it could be rebuilt as a learning device.


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## chips&more (Oct 30, 2016)

Don’t know what caliber of clock you want to swap out the guts on. But on the clocks I have, that would be sacrilege. Most movements involve a clock repair person and not a clockmaker person. A good cleaning & oil, maybe a few bushings, maybe a pivot or two and more than likely you will need to fix what the last person(s) did not do correctly. I think you have the skill and knowledge to just dive right in. I think the clock repair course will mostly bore you to sleep. One thing that comes to mind is when disassembling a movement, make sure the mainspring power is let down or under control. You can easily damage a movement if you don’t heed this rule. Everything else is basic mechanics. No blueprints that I’m aware of. If you need a part, it’s usually from a sample or you measure existing components to make a missing replacement. You can do it…Dave


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## Tony Wells (Oct 30, 2016)

Well, no one ever accused me of being timid. I remember my first automatic trans. I have an aged uncle who made his living at it when he was working. He wouldn't even off any advice other than "dive in, you can do it". But that was after years of mechanic work. But then, I have been at making parts as well as checking precision parts (along with just about everything else associated with it except outside sales, hated that part) for well over 40 years. And even though it's been mostly oilfield, not everything is big and rough. One former customer had an in house horological machine shop. Wish I had stayed more in touch with those guys. I guess if I'm going to do it, I need to get started before my eyesight and dexterity get any worse. 
So with that thought in mind, I'll be looking for recommendations for machinery and tools. I have the major parts of a jewelers lathe, and can build the rest once I settle on whose design to steal. But for gear making, I am seriously considering building a wire EDM. I know there is a Yahoo group for them, as I am a member. I play with electronics maybe enough to pull it off, but have a brother who has probably more practical education than most EE's. I can build the thing, and there seems to be a lot of support from the home brew world. Part of me says no, do it the old fashioned way, and that is important to me. But then I would obviously have to learn the old ways. I'd actually prefer to do that, even if I do build an EDM. I can see too many other uses for it, not just in clockwork. 

Chips, I completely agree with what you said about new guts in an old clock. There is a ton of purist in me that wold have to be overcome to allow me to do that. BUT, that said, if that's what it takes to get my feet wet and maybe make a few bucks, I may have to have that personal battle. I honestly believe I have a strong mechanical instinct and have proven this many times on things I have never laid eyes on, so it's not that I am a bit afraid of working on clocks. It's just the decision and commitment involved that are a little intimidating. I'd end up gutting my shop of everything that could handle material over 6", and I am loathe to do that. I have coolant in my veins, and that is hard to get rid of. That is if you can find anyone who actually wants to get rid of it.

OK then, suppose I do want to take a stab at this. Where to I find my first clock, that I really can't hurt, either by working on it, or replacing the works in? eBay? Doesn't seem likely. Garage sales? Who knows. I wish I had pushed a little harder on that one person who called from Longview(who also told me there was no one there who worked on clocks) to get my hand on that one. I did check a little bit here in Tyler, and found only one vague reference to anyone who sounded like they might work on antique clocks. After getting going, I can see leaving info at other antique restorers places. Those we have quite a few of, but they are mostly into furniture. I also had a chance to repair/restore an antique sewing machine. Actually have one of those myself, but it works perfectly, so not much help there.

So I'm open to ideas as to how to approach this, from the methods and machinery to the marketing.....keep talking to me guys.


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