# VN12 Spindle Project of 2013



## Shopsweeper (Jun 11, 2013)

Many of you know about the drama surrounding my Van Norman 12 and the non-R8, non-5V spindle.  (a previous owner tried a "garage conversion" to R8).

I am working with a local student to create a CAD file for me (us).  I want this products of this effort to held in the public domain as a small token of my esteem toward many of you who have helped me directly and indirectly while learning about these old machines.

The goal is an Van Norman C Spindle (V5) measured drawing (CAD file) that would be a replacement for worn VN12 ball bearing spindles.
A sub-goal is to provide some idea of what shops (listed by name) might charge for work like this.
Another sub-goal is to do the same for roller brearing models (assuming they differ) and any other variants of the VN12 Spindle we identify.
Another sub-goal is to cook up a spec for an R8 spindle if anyone wants that (this should consist of different ID measurements only).

To this end I will be soliciting answers and advice in this thread (leaving my other thread to be specific to that one machine).  My hope is that this thread be about more than once machine and that we can come up with BOTH Roller Bearing and Ball Bearing VN12 spindle specs (and any other VN12 spindle types that may exist).

I pledge to update this thread as progress occurs, and I will use it to ask for help as well.  I am not a great machinist, but I am Project Manager by vocation.  So I am addressing this challenge in a Project Management way. 

Please note: No part of this project is intended as disrespect to [SIZE=-1]Repair Parts, Inc.[/SIZE]  They have been a great resource to many VN owners and if they had a spindle to sell me I would buy one (maybe two) today.  The simple fact is that my efforts to get RPI to release their out-of-patent drawings to a machine shop (of their choice) to quote me a part were not successful.  I doubt that I am the first or the last customer to ask this of them.  I simply feel that a community based effort can fill a hole that is not being met today by commerce alone.


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## franklynb (Jun 11, 2013)

Nice project. Some quick thoughts:

1) R8 has 1/16" less capacity, I believe: 9/16 vs 5/8. On this basis alone, I'd have no use
for it. Effectively, that cuts my choice of end mills.

2) Some thought must be made to process: start with hardened steel i.e. 4130 or heat treat.
Either greatly influences who/how it will be made.

3) a quill is the "most desired" feature; so it might be interesting to make the tradeoff
at design time: collet capacity vs quill.... or

4) "the holy grail"; and interchangeable "cartridge" design than can be tailored to either collet
or quill use.

Yeah, I know: I'm dreaming. But then I do industrial design work for a living. Getting the
"right" set of requirements can dramatically change your "end user market"!

FWIW.

--frankb



Shopsweeper said:


> Many of you know about the drama surrounding my Van Norman 12 and the on-R8, non-5V spindle.  (a previous owner tried a "garage conversion" to R8).... I simply feel that a community based effort can fill a hole that is not being met today by commerce alone.


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## toag (Jun 11, 2013)

FWIW i agree with Frank, and would recommend grinding the new spindles for 30 taper.  size isnt much different in the diamter, in fact i think they are the same.  but it will mill alot more.  Let me know if you need some help on the CAD end, as i work with alibre (now geomagic!) and can find my ass with 2 hands... sometimes.

I do like the idea btw, and you have a host of knowledge on this forum!
​


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 11, 2013)

Question 1:  What should the offset be between the know dimensions (OD) of 5V toolholder and the ID of the spindle?

Another way to ask the same question: how tight should a spindle be on the collet?


Since my 5V is no longer 5V I can't simply measure it, but thanks to Cal and others I have specs on Van Norman C (5V).


I like the 30 Taper idea.  5V first in CAD, 5V first in production but after that, it should really only be a quick change in the CAD file.


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## Cal Haines (Jun 12, 2013)

Shopsweeper said:


> ...
> 
> I am working with a local student to create a CAD file for me (us).  I want this products of this effort to held in the public domain ...
> 
> ...


I like the idea.

Just to clarify, all Van Norman No. 12 spindles use tapered roller bearings; the older No. 12s had gearboxes that used ball bearings.

There were about 5 different cutter-heads used on No. 12s, including what I call the 12/16 cutter-head which was used on late model No. 12s and on the No. 16.  (The No. 16 is the direct descendant of the No. 12 and uses the same basic gearbox.)  I don't know to what extent the spindles were interchangeable among the various cutter-head castings.  It's clear to me that Van Norman struggled with the problem of how to lock the ring gear to the spindle and tried several different approaches.  All of the early heads used a single large key to drive the spindle.  The 12/16 heads went to splines on the spindle and ring gear, and those machines also switched from key to spline drive in the ram gearboxes.  Along the way, Van Norman also changed from lubricating the front bearing with grease to lubricating it with oil from the ring-gear reservoir.

I think it would be a good idea to take advantage of any advances in the design of later spindles that can be used on a spindle for an early model machine.  A key constraint is going to be the ring gear.  If minor modifications can be made to the cutter-head casting to allow a more universal spindle, then that would be the way to go.  At this point I'm only aware of two ring gears:  12-633, used in the older No. 12s; and 16-1081, used in the 12/16 cutter-head.  However, based on the 12-633 ring gear's part number, I'm pretty sure that there is an older version out there, with a part number in the low 200's.

I think that a good starting place is to get a good drawing of a spindle and the essential features of the mating ring gear.  The drawing should be in a format that can be widely used.  The .DXF format can be imported by most CAD packages.  I use Draftsight, which is free.  It's essentially an AutoCAD clone from Dassault Systèmes, the giant software company that owns SolidWorks and Catia:
http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/overview/

I have the spindle from a 1943 vintage, ball-bearing gearbox VN 12 (which should be part number 12-899) and one from a 1951 vintage VN 16 (part number 16-1079).  Both are out of their cutter-heads where I can check dimensions, as needed.

Down the road we should develop a spreadsheet of the critical dimension of the various spindles and their mating ring gears.  It would be good to include bearing and seal part numbers in the spreadsheet as well.  Once you know the external dimensions of the spindle for your machine you are free to do what you like as far as the internal taper goes.  Personally, I think that R-8 is a poor choice since it has no provision for drive dogs for an arbor.  NMTB 30 taper might be an option, but I don't know if there's enough meat on the end of the spindle to allow it without making the spindle longer and changing the front bearing cap, etc.

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 13, 2013)

I am glad to have some folks on board.  

Cal, do you think that the old VN Part numbers will serve as a good enough naming convention for the Spindle + Ring gear?

I will plan on keeping track of these in pairs (Spindle+Ring Gear).

I got a rough sample file from my friend Trevor who is helping me digitize.  It's not ready for prime time yet but a picture may help spark imaginations (since picture less threads can be worthless...).  I can't upload right now but I will do so tonight.


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## Cal Haines (Jun 13, 2013)

Shopsweeper said:


> ...
> Cal, do you think that the old VN Part numbers will serve as a good enough naming convention for the Spindle + Ring gear?
> ...


That's how I'd do it.

On the ring gears, you wouldn't need to try to model the teeth on the gear.  A simple section of the gear showing the ID details plus OD, thickness, and perhaps the approximate slope of the bevel should be all that's needed.  Several of the gears that I've looked at have a number on them; I think that it's the thickness of the gear, but I haven't verified that.  If so, it's probably useful for setting up the mesh of the gears.

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 13, 2013)

Here is a preview of our first deliverable: a 5V Spindle for my 12.  I need to get measurements to the CAD Tech next week but he cooked this up based on an email of the part pic from the manual and a part diagram of a 5V collet.


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## Cal Haines (Jun 14, 2013)

Shopsweeper said:


> Here is a preview of our first deliverable: a 5V Spindle for my 12.  I need to get measurements to the CAD Tech next week but he cooked this up based on an email of the part pic from the manual and a part diagram of a 5V collet.


What CAD package is he using, if you know?

Does he have a background in mechanical design?

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 14, 2013)

I THINK Solidworks, he told me but I am not sure.

This guy is a designer but his experience is more along the lines of injection molding pattern making.  But he is energetic and hungry - he works cheap (as a favor to me, I am sure).

He is asking A LOT of questions that I cannot answer right now about measurements.

My cutter head is sitting in parts cleaning fluid.  I wish I had an utrasonic large enough to hold the entire head....  I am OCD about cleaning and painting.

My day got derailed sanding and painting 6 Doublewide Vidmar cabinets (with heavy equipment shelves on bottom for tooling!).


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 18, 2013)

I think the pics were in that exact thread, but I can't see them now.

I am all for a 30 variant - but someone will have to help me with the 30 Spindle ID measurements to feed the CAD.


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## Cal Haines (Jun 18, 2013)

Shopsweeper said:


> I think the pics were in that exact thread, but I can't see them now.
> 
> I am all for a 30 variant - but someone will have to help me with the 30 Spindle ID measurements to feed the CAD.


The Van Norman 'C' taper (which Hardinge calls 5V) is well suited to the machine.  New collets, Weldon-shank endmill holders and shell mill holders are available from toos4cheap:http://www.tools4cheap.net/products.php?cat=39​
If you go with something like NMTB 30 you loose the ability to use one of the Van Norman sub-heads, like the high-speed universal head or the slotter head.  There is a host of spindle tooling for the #12 that you can pick up on eBay if you're patient:  stub arbors, B&S #5 & #7 tool-holders, MT #1, #2 & #2 tool-holders. boring head arbors, etc., etc.  I don't know what's available in 30 taper.

With 30 taper you're probably also looking at changing the overarm support (unless the 30 taper arbor just happens to have the large dead-center in the end for the support).

For collets on a 30-taper machine, you're looking at a separate collet chuck that costs you a couple of inches of vertical working clearance.  You've only got 12-1/2" to begin with.  So what if the maximum tool you can hold in a C collet is 5/8"? If you need an endmill bigger than 1/2", you should probably be using a Weldon-shank holder or switch to horizontal mode.

I don't think the advantages, if any, of 30 taper are worth what you give up.

If you want to do the Van Norman community a favor, spend your time coming up with some good drawings for horizontal arbors.

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 23, 2013)

Update:  Spindle out and on way to Designer this week.  That high sulphide oil had everything inside the cutterhead red.  

After 90 min in the ultrasonic cleaner, the spindle was still not completely clean.  

The Timken class 3 bearing are dated 2/18/43 and 2/23/43 respectively.  They cleaned up a lot better after 1 trip though the Ramco bearing degreaser, and 1 trip through the ultrasonic.


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## Cal Haines (Jun 24, 2013)

I didn't think to remind you to put witness marks on the ring gear and spindle, and to count the number of threads that are visible on the spindle or measure the gap between the lock ring and the ring gear.  It's very important to get the ring gear back where you found it.  You also want to put witness marks on any lock rings and mating parts that you have to disassemble.

I hope you were very careful with the bearings.  A new set of class 3 bearings is about $500.  (Note that the Timken bearing class number has nothing to do with ABEC ratings.)

What bearing numbers do you have?  (The cups and cones have different numbers.)

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 24, 2013)

Cal,

You reminded some other person in some other thread with a leaky 16, so no worries.  I witnessed, measured and marked everything to death.  I even made up an aluminum shim that will help me get the ring positioned right on rebuild (its just a few thou more than 5/32 off the casting teeth side.)

I don't have them in front of me but I think the bearings were 336 and 28150 (Both scratched with a "3" along with the date).  My bearings got the royal treatment - dedicated bearing degreaser followed by a medical grade ultrasonic cleaning in beakers full of the good yellow metal and AL friendly cleaning solution just in case.

However, the spindle was badly scratched where it meets the top bearing and both bearings are visibly worn on the face of each roller.  I am on site today with the company that owns Dodge Bearings - I wish I knew of a good cross index of part numbers...

All in all, the tear down was uneventful.  

I plan to research alternate grease seals tonight - if anyone has any ideas I am all ears.  I imagine this problem get solved with UHMW or similar today.  what I found inside the head looked like large, worn out, floppy asbestos washers.

I am curious.  My machine got "rebuilt" in the 50's by the Burd Company based on a badge that she wears.  What kind of rebuilders don't replace bearings?

Cal - I will gladly have a c (5V) Horz Arbor drawn up for posterity as soon as I get my paws on one.  I have 2 PEARL scripts scouring flebay and CL at all times and other than about 5 false positives a day due to VN Engine Boring Hardware it has been quiet in the VN C world the last six months.


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 24, 2013)

Bearing Update: 

I think these are my replacement bearings: 336-3, 28150-3 -  $365.92 for both.  I knew that Amazon had everything, but Precision bearings is a surprise to me.

I saw some on eBay, but I would prefer a merchant that I can return items without a hassle.  I'm out of town today, but I got a line on 2 precision bearing dealers from an Engineer here. I will call around for prices.


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## Cal Haines (Jun 24, 2013)

Shopsweeper said:


> Bearing Update:
> 
> I think these are my replacement bearings: 336-3, 28150-3 -  $365.92 for both.  I knew that Amazon had everything, but Precision bearings is a surprise to me.
> 
> I saw some on eBay, but I would prefer a merchant that I can return items without a hassle.  I'm out of town today, but I got a line on 2 precision bearing dealers from an Engineer here. I will call around for prices.


Those are the cone (inner race and roller cage) numbers.  The corresponding cups (outer race) should be 333 for the front and 28300 for the rear.  The front seal should a 9450.

Do you have a copy of the assembly drawing for the 6/12 cutter-head?

It never occurred to me to look for bearing on Amazon.  When I was looking for bearings for my No. 16, I found almost nothing in class 3 on eBay.  There were a lot of automotive grade bearings, but almost no class 3.

Sharon at Johnson Bearing, in Sparks, NV, was able to find most of the bearings and seals that I needed:
http://www.johnsonbearing.com/home.htm

_Cal_


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## ScubaSteve (Jul 6, 2013)

Not to be a kill-joy...but be careful when buying bearings! You NEED to talk to someone who knows their stuff. I went on the hunt for lathe bearings at one time...also Timken. I'm pretty sure those class 3 are NOT the precision bearings used in machine tools. Class 3 actually are used in automotive applications the Amazon description even mentions it. Timken uses the word "precision" as a matter of advertising, not an indicator of grade. Also, I think the part numbers remain the same, irrespective of the class. IIRC, you need Class 1 bearings, possibly Class 2. Most likely special order.

HOWEVER, if you are knowingly accepting the decrease in precision for economic reasons, then carry on! I know I can't afford super-precision anything....makes me wish I didn't love old machine tools....:roflmao:


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## Cal Haines (Jul 6, 2013)

ScubaSteve said:


> ... I'm pretty sure those class 3 are NOT the precision bearings used in machine tools. Class 3 actually are used in automotive applications the Amazon description even mentions it. ...
> IIRC, you need Class 1 bearings, possibly Class 2. Most likely special order. ...


Not my first Timken bearing rodeo, my friend.

I'm not sure about the bearing numbers used in a No. 6/12 spindle, but the bearing numbers in a 12/16 spindle are used in lots of truck axles.  Maybe that's what they're talking about.

The Timken bearing class number use the ABMA (American Bearing Manufacturer's Association) rating scale. Classes 4 and 2 are "standard" classes. Classes 3, 0, and 00 are "precision" classes. Timken also has a class 000 grade of bearings (at least on paper). The standard bearings don't have the class number marked on them.

Class 4 bearings have a 0.00200" maximum runout and are used for wheel bearings.
Class 2 bearings have a 0.00150" maximum runout and are used for gearboxes.
Class 3 bearings have a 0.00030" maximum runout.
Class 0 bearings have a 0.00015" maximum runout.
Class 000 bearings have 0.00004" max runout.

Note that there is no such thing as a class 1 bearing (at least in Timkin) and that class 3 precision bearings have a fifth the runout of class 2 standard bearings.

Here's a link the the Timken Tapered Roller Bearing Catalog.  The runout specs are on page 29.
http://www.timken.com/EN-US/products/Documents/Timken-Tapered-Roller-Bearing-Catalog.pdf

Good luck finding anything better than Class 3 except as old stock.

A standard grade bearing cup and cone will run you about $20 vs $200 for the same bearing in class 3.  IRRC, the quote was over $1000 for a class 0 matched cup and cone, and that's with a 6 to 9 month wait.  Imagine what a class 000 set would cost...

_Cal_


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## ScubaSteve (Jul 7, 2013)

No offense meant, Cal...just trying to prevent a misguided purchase. You're right....the 0, 00, and 000's seem to be mythical creatures. I've never seen them for sale on any sort of internet site, at least. A class 3 *should* be fine.....but then again, I think it's important to know the max runout before laying down $300+.....


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## iron.oxide (Jul 12, 2014)

Shopsweeper,

Have the drawings been completed on this VN12 Spindle? I have a similar situation with my Van Norman 12 spindle, where it has been converted to an R8 taper. Even worse, rain water has gotten into the cutting head and destroyed the bearings and maybe the spindle. I am going to attempt to dismantle the head today and hope for the best. I do need new ring and pinion gears for the head, so if I cannot find them, I will have to have them made. The remainder of my machine is in fairly good shape.

Pete


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## Uglydog (Jul 12, 2014)

Cal Haines said:


> The Van Norman 'C' taper (which Hardinge calls 5V) is well suited to the machine.  New collets, Weldon-shank endmill holders and shell mill holders are available from toos4cheap:http://www.tools4cheap.net/products.php?cat=39​



Unfortunately, Jeff at tools4cheap has discontinued the 5V.
I learned this after I picked up a VN6 requiring 5V.
I'm covered now, but was disappointed at the time.
Regardless, I applaud tools4cheap as a credible supplier.

Daryl
MN


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## Shopsweeper (Jul 29, 2014)

iron.oxide said:


> Shopsweeper,
> 
> Have the drawings been completed on this VN12 Spindle? I have a similar situation with my Van Norman 12 spindle, where it has been converted to an R8 taper. Even worse, rain water has gotten into the cutting head and destroyed the bearings and maybe the spindle. I am going to attempt to dismantle the head today and hope for the best. I do need new ring and pinion gears for the head, so if I cannot find them, I will have to have them made. The remainder of my machine is in fairly good shape.
> 
> Pete




iron.oxide,

Nope.  I have not found the right person to scan this up for me yet.  I thought I did, but not yet.

I DO have some updates on my project that may be relevant for you.  Let me try to post some data and pics.

Shopsweeper
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/member.php?u=32273*
*


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## Shopsweeper (Jul 29, 2014)

Before I sent my spindle off to be digitized (not done yet) I had a good friend take it to verify the hardness of the piece at his workplace.   Here are the results:



Tested at 0º, 240º, 360º
Location A-A  (Tested on Large Shaft End Flat) 60.5, 61.4, 59.5 Roc C
Location A  (Tested on Shaft Dia.) 60.3,58.4,59.5 Roc C
Location B  (Tested on Shaft Dia.) 62.4,58.7,62.4 Roc C
Location C  (Tested on Shaft Dia.) 20.9,20.4,19.0 Roc B
Location D  (Tested on Shaft Dia.) 91.3,89.0,88.1 Roc B
Location E  (Tested on Shaft Dia.) 80.8,86.7,82.0 Roc B
Location F  (Tested on Shaft Dia.) 99.0,95.5,97.2 Roc B
Location G  (Tested on Shaft Dia.) 96.7,98.7,94.6 Roc B

TEST INSTRUMENT: Krautkramer Microdur II  
PROBE: 5.0 Kg.  S/N - 1299
REFERENCE TEST STD: Yamamoto HRC 65 Block 

I'm no expert but some of these seem wildly hard, and some way too soft.  Work hardening?


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## Shopsweeper (Jul 29, 2014)

And the Materials identification report of my spindle is as follows:


C 0.51, Si 0.06, Mn 1.21, Cr 0.07, Mo <0.01, Ni <0.02, Al <0.007, Co <0.010, Cu 0.039, Ti <0.002, V <0.005, W <0.040, Pb <0.008, Fe 98.0

This was done using a Spectrotest Model TXC using spark mode.


I hope some of this is helpful to anyone needing to have a spindle made up.


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## Cal Haines (Jul 30, 2014)

Great information.  Thanks!

I suspect that they only hardened the nose of the spindle.  No clue why section C would be so much softer than the rest.

_Cal_


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## Primitive_Pete (Nov 23, 2015)

So Shopsweeper how is that spindle project going?


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