# Thoriated vs Lanthanated Tungsten



## MrWhoopee (Apr 13, 2021)

I'm a tungsten dipper, I can't help it, I just am. 

Anyway, I've been using 3/32 2% lanthanated tungsten since I got my Alpha-TIG a few years ago. I've been welding some 304 and 316 tube recently, and as usual, it's a few dips in the pool and off to the grinder (again). I've almost given up sharpening both ends because I can rarely get the bad end into the collet. For obvious reasons, my tungsten was getting kind of short, so I decided to try a thoriated tungsten from a full pack I had inherited. I very quickly noticed that it tolerated dipping much better, keeping a useful point and picking up less metal from the puddle. More time welding, less grinding, longer tungsten life.

Has anyone else noticed this, or do the rest of you just stay out of the pool?


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## rwm (Apr 13, 2021)

I don't want to deal with radioactive Th dust. I admit, I'm probably I'm overcautious. I use Ce, La, and the new purple mix stuff.
Robert


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## Aukai (Apr 13, 2021)

I don't even know what I have, the welding store said here use this, and I grind constantly too.


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## cathead (Apr 13, 2021)

I'm not fond of radioactive alpha emitters myself so use the blue lanthanated tungsten for TIG welding.


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## DavidR8 (Apr 13, 2021)

I'm not a fan of swimming so I tend to hang out at the snack bar instead. 

Oh sorry, welding right. I'm a dipper too and use 2% lanthanated exclusively.


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## benmychree (Apr 13, 2021)

I always used thoriated tungsten, welded a lot of 303 and 304 tungsten, kept a small bench grinder right close, did not have to get up to regrind, and usually kept several at the ready.


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 13, 2021)

Aukai said:


> I don't even know what I have, the welding store said here use this, and I grind constantly too.


Before you ground both ends there was a color code on one end. Probably blue (lanthanated), but if an old guy sold it to you, maybe red (thoriated).


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## pontiac428 (Apr 13, 2021)

For DC, I'm not picky.  Temperature range is a consideration for lanthanated, that stuff works better on thinner work.  Thoriated and ceriated work best with my archaic Miller Dialarc HF because the arc start isn't as smooth as the new, electronic transformer welders.

As for dipping, I quit years ago.  Wife couldn't stand all the cups and bottles left about.  Just kidding, I never chewed tobacco.

Thoriated tungsten has a higher melt temp, which is why it's more "resistant" to dipping.  The metals that stick to the electrode will quickly oxidize and migrate to the tip, degrading arc performance.  The best solution is not to dip.  Do they make training wheels for a tig torch?


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 13, 2021)

pontiac428 said:


> The best solution is not to dip.  Do they make training wheels for a tig torch?


Agreed, and if I had a choice...

I have to keep removing the training wheels to get into those tight spots, even a #5 cup is too big.


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## Aukai (Apr 13, 2021)

I got a lightly used Syncrowave 250, I added a water cooler, and I got the stick leads. Too bad the machines capability is limited to my inability  Just when I start making some progress in tapping the top of my head, rubbing my tummy, chewing gum, and walking, I get too busy to keep up.


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## cathead (Apr 13, 2021)

So with red radioactive tungsten, which is the bigger hazard, the welding or the grinding?


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## 682bear (Apr 13, 2021)

cathead said:


> So with red radioactive tungsten, which is the bigger hazard, the welding or the grinding?



The grinding releases a very low level radioactive dust... my understanding is that it is nowhere near a dangerous amount of radioactivity. I used thoriated for years before I knew anything about the hazard, and still prefer it now... 

Welding with it poses no added danger.

-Bear


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## eugene13 (Apr 13, 2021)

Maybe a hazard for a young guy, I'm going on 75, I'm glad my son uses a supplied air hood at his job although.


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## epanzella (Apr 13, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> Agreed, and if I had a choice...
> 
> I have to keep removing the training wheels to get into those tight spots, even a #5 cup is too big.


I'm a serial dipper and am trying to figure out a training wheel attachment.


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 13, 2021)

eugene13 said:


> Maybe a hazard for a young guy, I'm going on 75


I"ll be 70 soon. When I was young enough to worry, the choices were green or red. Green for aluminum, red for everything else. I've reached the stage where the sins of my youth will get me well before anything short of cyanide.


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## erikmannie (Apr 13, 2021)

At home, I use lanthanated for everything. One school I went to (United Bicycle Institute) used ceriated; I couldn’t tell the difference. No thoriated for me, thanks; I’m sure that the dust is not as much of a hazard as people say, but I just want to minimize risk.

Nobody takes their tungsten for a swim more often than I do. It doesn’t bother me because it lets me know that I am holding a tight arc; I am serious about this. I honestly believe that you are better off holding too tight of an arc and dipping your tungsten than being a Long Arc Larry.

But yeah, I spend a lot of time sharpening tungsten. I have a tungsten sharpener. I very often cut off the contaminated part; this saves time as well as wear on my diamond grinding wheel.

You definitely want to have about 10 sharpened tungsten electrodes ready to go, and then resharpen them in batches.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 14, 2021)

The thorium component is only 2% of the electrode by weight, and we're only grinding a little tiny bit every now and again. Of that, we're making some dust, but only inhaling a smidgen. Nanograms, maybe. And the half life of thorium off the top of my head is some thousands of years. But the decay chain does emit some Coincident gamma, and that's in the lungs, so there's always the chance of hitting the lottery and having one hit some dividing cell and causing cancer. But hey, I don’t sweat it and it's my job to worry about what workers inhale at their jobs. I wouldn't seek employment at a tungsten sharpening factory doing it 40 hours a week, though.


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## cathead (Apr 14, 2021)

I have been reading up on this subject.  It seems that the biggest hazard is in the grinding of thoriated tungsten TIG rods
and subsequent inhalation or ingestion of the dust.  Welding with thoriated tungsten is somewhat hazardous as well but
to a lesser extent.  Alpha radiation is the most dangerous radiation from a biological standpoint compared to beta or
gamma rays.  So, after my home schooling, I will be using only non radioactive TIG rods.  The bottom line in my 
estimation is that although we can not avoid all radiation, we can avoid a great deal of it with careful choices.  
I guess eating bananas(potassium 40 is radioactive) isn't all bad as it reverts to Argon over time.


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## Janderso (Apr 14, 2021)

I’m a dipper too. I am dipping less.
Once I got the magnifying inserts for the welding helmet I do much better.
AC is my challenge.


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## Cadillac (Apr 14, 2021)

Probably get more radiation from all the WiFi everyone is around in my opinion. Doing it 10hrs a day is a lot different than a weekend warrior.


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## Cheeseking (Apr 14, 2021)

We switched from Thoriated to Ceriated awhile back due to employee health concerns and didn’t notice much difference so it was an easy switch. Now if you happen to be an uber-skilled/picky welder doing some technical and exact welding in a nuclear plant where the specific properties make a noticeable difference in performance or req to meet a code spec there may be some reason to use the Thoria but for the home hobby hackers gluing this n thats... Go orange and be safe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## graham-xrf (Apr 14, 2021)

I know this is a question from a welding noob who has yet to unpack the welder, but please explain "dipping".
The word in UK culture means pickpocketing.

I am so anticipating getting the welder out of storage ..


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## pontiac428 (Apr 14, 2021)

Smoke detectors (americium-241) and Coleman lantern mantles (thorium that turns to fine dust when stared too hard at) are other sources we use without always knowing it.  It's all about the dose, and these sources don't offer much of one.  At least not for home users.

@graham-xrf Dipping means making inadvertent contact with the tungsten into the weld puddle (or filler rod, same effect).


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## MSBriggs (Apr 14, 2021)

Breathing the dust from grinding thoriated rods is probably the worst danger.   As already stated, alphas are more biologically damaging.  But alphas have short range, being absorbed even in a few inches in air.  But if the dust is in your lung, cells are probably getting exposure from alphas.  So a respirator and vacuuming or otherwise collecting the dust seems useful .  With the material outside of the body, the worse exposure is gamma radiation, since gamma-rays are more penetrating.


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## homebrewed (Apr 14, 2021)

Radon is an alpha emitter and that's the reason for concern about it.  Without all the radon mitigation we did, our basement would be in the 500+ pico-Curie range.  Mitigation is desirable for anything above 4.   At least, that's the EPA's guideline.  I think other countries are even more stringent.

My shop is in the basement so I'm highly interested in keeping the mitigation system running!


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## eugene13 (Apr 14, 2021)

We're leaving chrome-6 and cobalt out of the discussion, yep, I use a respirator, the most important is that us old guys set a good example.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 15, 2021)

Cr-VI is a thread unto itself!  But don't you worry over cobalt, it's practically inert.


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## epanzella (Apr 15, 2021)

r-mm said:


> Here is the Y axis bracket I prototyped on the 3D printer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





homebrewed said:


> Radon is an alpha emitter and that's the reason for concern about it.  Without all the radon mitigation we did, our basement would be in the 500+ pico-Curie range.  Mitigation is desirable for anything above 4.   At least, that's the EPA's guideline.  I think other countries are even more stringent.
> 
> My shop is in the basement so I'm highly interested in keeping the mitigation system running!


I had to blast for my basement shop.  The cracks in the ledge let in some  RADON so I had to put in a RADON-IN-AIR mitigation system. Brought it right down to nearly zero. Everyone spending a lot of time in a basement shop should check RADON levels.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 15, 2021)

Alpha radiation is blocked by a piece of paper.  The danger is when it is inhaled or ingested as the surrounding tissue wuill absorb the alpha radiation from dust particles.  Of the two, the inhaled particles are the most dangerous as ingested particles will most likely pass through the digestive system before they can do much damage.  In contrast, inhaled particles could remain in the lungs for a lifetime.

Long lived isotopes present the greatest hazard.  Certain forms of cancer are treated with short lived alpha emitting seeds.  The isotopes are highly radioactive but their activity can drop to near zero in a matter of hours, rendering them harmless.  The long lived isotopes maintain their activity virtually unchanged for years,


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## G-ManBart (Apr 15, 2021)

pontiac428 said:


> For DC, I'm not picky.  Temperature range is a consideration for lanthanated, that stuff works better on thinner work.  Thoriated and ceriated work best with my archaic Miller Dialarc HF because the arc start isn't as smooth as the new, electronic transformer welders.
> 
> Thoriated tungsten has a higher melt temp, which is why it's more "resistant" to dipping.  The metals that stick to the electrode will quickly oxidize and migrate to the tip, degrading arc performance.  The best solution is not to dip.  Do they make training wheels for a tig torch?


I've done a lot of welding at fairly high amperage for most folks.  I compared thoriated to 2% lanthanated running 250A and there is no question that lanthanated holds up better, so I'm not sure why you'd say it works better on thinner work.  That's also not just using just one machine either...both inverters and transformers.  My main machine is a Syncrowave 250DX but I've done the same work with older Syncrowaves before the digital versions, a 330 A/BP, a transformer Lincoln, a Hobart TIGWave 250 and a couple of new inverters. 

I can't imagine how thoriated tungsten can have a higher melting temperature when it doesn't handle the same amount of amperage as 2% lanthanated....lots of references out there that show thoriated handles less current than 2% lanthanated.


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## kb58 (Apr 15, 2021)

Cadillac said:


> Probably get more radiation from all the WiFi everyone is around in my opinion. Doing it 10hrs a day is a lot different than a weekend warrior.


Apples and oranges - two completely different types of "radiation."


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## G-ManBart (Apr 15, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> I very quickly noticed that it tolerated dipping much better, keeping a useful point and picking up less metal from the puddle. More time welding, less grinding, longer tungsten life.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed this, or do the rest of you just stay out of the pool?


I don't keep welding after I contaminate the tungsten, so I can't comment which works better after a dip.  I don't see any real difference in which one is more likely to get contaminated, but there are known differences in how electrodes react with the puddle so it's got to be a chemistry/electrical issue.  The puddle is always going to get trace amounts of contamination from the tungsten, and that will even drive what type of tungsten is used for critical applications.

I've compared 2% lanthanated, 2% thoriated and several of the new trimix blends on the same work and the only thing I really notice is that the thoriated won't hold a point quite as long as the other two....not a huge difference, but it's enough that it's obvious.  I don't like running any size tungsten near the top end, so that may be a factor as well.  I keep 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8" on hand...I probably don't run 3/32 much over 150A regularly.


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## 682bear (Apr 15, 2021)

G-ManBart said:


> I don't keep welding after I contaminate the tungsten, so I can't comment which works better after a dip.  I don't see any real difference in which one is more likely to get contaminated, but there are known differences in how electrodes react with the puddle so it's got to be a chemistry/electrical issue.  The puddle is always going to get trace amounts of contamination from the tungsten, and that will even drive what type of tungsten is used for critical applications.
> 
> I've compared 2% lanthanated, 2% thoriated and several of the new trimix blends on the same work and the only thing I really notice is that the thoriated won't hold a point quite as long as the other two....not a huge difference, but it's enough that it's obvious.  I don't like running any size tungsten near the top end, so that may be a factor as well.  I keep 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8" on hand...I probably don't run 3/32 much over 150A regularly.



I've had exactly the opposite experience... I've tried 1.5 and 2% lanthanated and ceriated and, for me, the thoriated holds up better at higher amperages. Less than 125 amps, I can't tell any difference between them.

Do you suppose it may be a difference in brands? IDK...

FWIW, I run an old Miller Dialarc 250 HF transformer... I've never used an inverter machine...

-Bear


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## G-ManBart (Apr 15, 2021)

682bear said:


> I've had exactly the opposite experience... I've tried 1.5 and 2% lanthanated and ceriated and, for me, the thoriated holds up better at higher amperages. Less than 125 amps, I can't tell any difference between them.
> 
> Do you suppose it may be a difference in brands? IDK...
> 
> ...


1.5% lanthanated and ceriated definitely shouldn't hold up as well as 2% thoriated, so that makes sense.

It very well could be a brand thing as I've read a lot of discussions about that very topic and people finding variations between brands.  For the most part I only buy from two or three sources, but mostly I've been buying Midwest Tungsten Service from eBay or Amazon and they've been very consistent.  

Jody did a really interesting comparison a while back for anybody who's interested (although only inverters were used as I recall).









						Tungsten Electrodes Review
					

Video shows comparison of several type of tungsten electrodes, thoriated, lanthanated, ceriated, E3, and layzr



					www.weldingtipsandtricks.com


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 15, 2021)

G-ManBart said:


> I don't keep welding after I contaminate the tungsten, so I can't comment which works better after a dip.


You're a better man than I. If I stopped to regrind every time I dipped I'd never get anything finished.


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## 682bear (Apr 15, 2021)

My 2% thoriated is Weldcote Metals, my 2% Lanthanated is HTP, my 2% Ceriated is HTP, I also have Radnor E3, and Radnor pure... I've only used the pure for aluminum... I have not even opened the pack of E3 yet...

These are all 3/32"...

Lately, I've been using 1.5% ceriated... but I've pretty much been TIG brazing mostly, with silicon bronze, doing repairs on cast iron... the 1.5% ceriated does pretty well with brazing.

-Bear


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## G-ManBart (Apr 15, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> You're a better man than I. If I stopped to regrind every time I dipped I'd never get anything finished.


I think we all start out that way...but I'm stubborn and after countless hours of practice I got good enough it doesn't happen too often now.  I honestly think learning aluminum was a big part of that...forget trying to keep going once you've dipped


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 15, 2021)

G-ManBart said:


> I think we all start out that way...but I'm stubborn and after countless hours of practice I got good enough it doesn't happen too often now.  I honestly think learning aluminum was a big part of that...forget trying to keep going once you've dipped


I'm not just starting out. Welding classes in '78, 20+ years in the machining business and having to be the weldor when we didn't have one. I'm just not steady nor coordinated enough. I couldn't play drums either.


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## G-ManBart (Apr 15, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> I'm not just starting out. Welding classes in '78, 20+ years in the machining business and having to be the weldor when we didn't have one. I'm just not steady nor coordinated enough. I couldn't play drums either.



Gotcha.  You may have already explored this idea, but gas lenses really let you run far more stickout, which at least makes it a lot easier to see.  The newer pyrex (clear) cups...both standard and gas lens style are even better yet because you can not only see through them, but they seem to act like a mirror and push more light right back where you need it most.  The pyrex cups won't handle as much heat as the alumina style, but for when you really need to be able to see they're hard to beat.

I started reading about lanthanated versus thoriated from a chemical composition perspective and while both include 2% of weight from alloys other than tungsten the lanthanated are heavier, so the total amount of alloys by weight is greater.  That's beyond a crude description of the article, but enough to get the idea.  That might change things from an electro-magnetic standpoint and make it so they attract the molten steel more than thoriated.  It started hurting my head so I stopped reading...but there could be something to what you're seeing that would explain it perfectly.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 15, 2021)

Here you go, G-man.  As you can see, lanthanated tungsten has the LOWEST melt point of all the common electrodes BY A WIDE GAP.  This is from Chemetal, not from youtube.

When I spoke of my welder being a Dialarc HF (same as @682bear's) and arc starting, it takes a lot more finesse than running even an old Syncrowave or Dynasty.  New switched power welders have gobs of electronics to make arc starting (and arc stability) a breeze.  New welders are almost like automatic transmissions in comparison.  But it's what I've got and I can run it well.


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## 682bear (Apr 15, 2021)

pontiac428 said:


> When I spoke of my welder being a Dialarc HF (same as @682bear's) and arc starting, it takes a lot more finesse than running even an old Syncrowave or Dynasty.  New switched power welders have gobs of electronics to make arc starting (and arc stability) a breeze.  New welders are almost like automatic transmissions in comparison.  But it's what I've got and I can run it well.



The Dialarc HF is a dinosaur... big, heavy, and when you strike an arc, lights flicker three counties away... but it welds so good!

I love my dinosaur... maybe this is considered sacreligious, but I wouldn't trade it for an inverter...

I guess I'm sort of attached to it...

-Bear


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## G-ManBart (Apr 15, 2021)

pontiac428 said:


> Here you go, G-man.  As you can see, lanthanated tungsten has the LOWEST melt point of all the common electrodes BY A WIDE GAP.  This is from Chemetal, not from youtube.
> 
> When I spoke of my welder being a Dialarc HF (same as @682bear's) and arc starting, it takes a lot more finesse than running even an old Syncrowave or Dynasty.  New switched power welders have gobs of electronics to make arc starting (and arc stability) a breeze.  New welders are almost like automatic transmissions in comparison.  But it's what I've got and I can run it well.
> 
> View attachment 362742


That's interesting, but just one consideration.  AC welding gets the tungsten a lot hotter than DC and 2% thoriated is awful on AC in comparison to 2% lanthanated...literally no comparison so there's more to it.

It seems a bit silly to discount a real-world test done by an expert like Jody at WT&T...he's not just some knucklehead with a YouTube channel.  The test seemed pretty impartial, and the results are pretty obvious.

Diamond Ground Products puts out the Tungsten Guide Book which is considered by some to be the definitive source on tungstens and they certainly claim 2% lanthanated has advantages over 2% thoriated.



			https://diamondground.com/TungstenGuidebook.pdf
		


2.3.3 Lanthanated (EWLa Electrode Classification)
The most common Lanthanated tungsten contains 2 percent lanthanum oxide (La203), referred to as lanthana. In Europe and Japan, Lanthanated tungsten has been the most popular alternative to 2% Thoriated tungsten for most applications. It is available as 2%, 1.5%, and 1% Lanthanated tungsten. Lanthanum Trioxide has the lowest work function of any if the materials thus it usually starts easiest and has the lowest temperature at the tip, which resists grain growth and promotes longer service life. *Testing of 2% Lanthanated material has shown that it offers a much longer life than Thoriated if not overloaded and better arc starting in most applications.* It is also especially good at (a) resisting the “Thermal shock” of pulsing, (b) working in welding in situations where there are numerous re-ignitions with a short weld cycle, and (c) resisting contamination. Welders with tube mill applications have been especially satisfied with this material because its longer life reduces down time. Also, as a general rule it will probably require about 15% less amps to start and sustain low current arcs. The Lanthanum in this tungsten is a “rare earth” material and is not radioactive. It has not been as heavily marketed and used in the United States as in Europe or Japan, however Diamond Ground Products, Inc. has been offering this material since 1993. This tungsten is primarily used for DC welding, but will also show good results for AC welding. The EWLa-1 electrodes were developed around the same time as the Ceriated electrodes and for the same reason, that lanthanum is not radioactive. These electrodes contain 2 percent lanthanum oxide (La203).


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## G-ManBart (Apr 15, 2021)

682bear said:


> The Dialarc HF is a dinosaur... big, heavy, and when you strike an arc, lights flicker three counties away... but it welds so good!
> 
> I love my dinosaur... maybe this is considered sacreligious, but I wouldn't trade it for an inverter...
> 
> ...


I get better results, particularly on aluminum, with my Syncrowave than I do on any modern inverter for some reason, and I've actually had 17 Syncrowave 250 and 250DX in the past few years....same thing with all of them.  Can't argue with success....


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