# PM1022 or SB1001 Lathes



## KenG (Feb 16, 2014)

I am looking at either the PM1022 or Grizzly's SB1001 lathe. My hobby is live steam railroads and I know I would be better off with a larger machine but I the extra weight just seems too hard to manage, especially as I move around a lot for work.

Any feedback on the "South Bend" would be welcome. I figure with the extra chucks etc. it's going to cost over $1,000 more but is only 8" swing vs. 10". Is there really any great difference in the precision?


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## wrmiller (Feb 16, 2014)

KenG said:


> I am looking at either the PM1022 or Grizzly's SB1001 lathe. My hobby is live steam railroads and I know I would be better off with a larger machine but I the extra weight just seems too hard to manage, especially as I move around a lot for work.
> 
> Any feedback on the "South Bend" would be welcome. I figure with the extra chucks etc. it's going to cost over $1,000 more but is only 8" swing vs. 10". Is there really any great difference in the precision?



How much precision do you need?

Your reasons for a smaller lathe sound exactly like mine. I seriously considered the G0752, the variable speed 1022, but went with the SB101 instead. My reasons were:

1.5 HP BLDC motor. 120v.
1 1/8 spindle bore
D1-3 chuck mount
3-v bed (tailstock accuracy)
300 lbs instead of 450

These reasons are probably trivial to most, but they were important for me and one of the things I do that requires reasonable accuracy (pistolsmithing) means I was looking for a little better quality than that typically found in these smaller sized lathes.

I cannot speak to the 1022, as I've never owned one, but accuracy of the SB is better than any Chinese lathe I've owned previously. I don't remember the exact numbers but shortly after getting mine running, and without aligning anything, I did a 5 or 6" test cut on a 1" bar of stainless and had somewhere around .0004 difference over the length of the cut. I have not even bothered to align the tailstock given the results of that test. I am impressed with the fit and finish of the lathe overall. Other than one loose grease fitting, and an intermittent fwd/rev switch, I've had no problems with this lathe. Grizzly replaced both parts under warranty no questions asked.

I don't do much threading, which is good because the SB1001 doesn't offer much of a range/selection. But in order to fine tune feed rates, I'm putting a geared motor on the leadscrew which will give me a variable feed function.

I have put an aloris QC toolpost on it, and will be making a more robust compound lower to add some rigidity when I'm working stainless and titanium. I have also put a 5" set-tru 3 jaw chuck on it as I have to chuck barrels and other items that need to run accurately. I will however, be buying the 4-jaw and the steady rest for this lathe so I have them just in case. I've never needed a follow rest so probably won't get that.

I'm just telling you my experience with the little SB. You can take this information and make your own decision.

It is pretty robust little lathe with a 6" wide bed for only a 8" swing, very stable carriage, and can take a pretty good DOC in stainless with little rpm drop. I smoked a uncoated carbide insert on that cut and the lathe wasn't even breathing hard.  

But I'm more interested in it's accuracy in doing small(er) work. Also, as I have had to move quite a bit for work, I have mounted the lathe on a 40" toolbox lower. Gets the lathe up where I don't have to bend over to operate it, and I can push it up a moving van ramp if need be.  

If you have other questions, I'll monitor this thread or PM me.

Edit: thought I'd add a pic of mine.




Bill


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## DoogieB (Feb 17, 2014)

Isn't the SB1001 discontinued?  I thought the current lower price was to sell-off remaining inventory.


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## wrmiller (Feb 17, 2014)

Yea, saw that reduced price... :angry:

My lathe will be relegated to 'used to make' just like the sb9, the 10k, and others found on this site. Parts won't be a problem though.

Other than that, am I missing something by your comment?

Bill


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## DoogieB (Feb 17, 2014)

The SB9 and SB10K were produced in decent numbers for decades but the SB1001 flopped in a year.  It might be a bit optimistic to assume the same parts availability or interest.

Buying an orphan can be a good thing if you can get it cheap enough, you just need to make sure to buy all the tooling you need now while it's still available.


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## wrmiller (Feb 17, 2014)

I didn't "assume" anything, I asked questions of Griz and SB. Doesn't mean parts will be available forever, but neither will I. 

Bill


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## KenG (Feb 20, 2014)

Bill,

Thanks for the comments on the SB. Similar to reviews I've seen on other forums. 

Does anyone have comments on the M1022. It has a better power feed setup than the SB but is there really a limited range of thread pitches? I use a lot of M4 and M5 fasteners and would like to have those thread option.


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## Ray C (Feb 20, 2014)

KenG said:


> Bill,
> 
> Thanks for the comments on the SB. Similar to reviews I've seen on other forums.
> 
> Does anyone have comments on the M1022. It has a better power feed setup than the SB but is there really a limited range of thread pitches? I use a lot of M4 and M5 fasteners and would like to have those thread option.



Just a quick heads up...  In general, metric threads are quite a bit harder to do than US style.  Also M4 and M5 are really hard because of their small size.  For me personally, I'm not inclined cut threads on a lathe for anything finer than 24 TPI (which is rare) or on diameters under 3/8".   Now, I do realize that some people specialize in making smaller parts so, feel free to toss my opinion as far as you can throw it -and it won't hurt my feelings.


Ray


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## Ray C (Feb 20, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Just a quick heads up...  In general, metric threads are quite a bit harder to do than US style.  Also M4 and M5 are really hard because of their small size.  For me personally, I'm not inclined cut threads on a lathe for anything finer than 24 TPI (which is rare) or on diameters under 3/8".   Now, I do realize that some people specialize in making smaller parts so, feel free to toss my opinion as far as you can throw it -and it won't hurt my feelings.
> 
> 
> Ray




BTW:  M4 is usually a 0.7 pitch which is approximately equivalent to 36 TPI -which is not easy to cut...  


Ray


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## k1pyp (Feb 20, 2014)

KenG said:


> Bill,
> 
> Thanks for the comments on the SB. Similar to reviews I've seen on other forums.
> 
> Does anyone have comments on the M1022. It has a better power feed setup than the SB but is there really a limited range of thread pitches? I use a lot of M4 and M5 fasteners and would like to have those thread option.



It will cut (at least the chart shows the gearing arrangement for) M4 and M5 fine pitch of .5 mm but it won't cut coarse pitchs of .7mm and .8mm (but instead do the average i.e., .75mm pitch).


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## wrmiller (Feb 20, 2014)

One of my other disappointments with my little SB is that it doesn't do 40tpi which is what I use (as does everyone else) to thread 1911 barrels and compensators for competition guns. Learning to single point at that thread pitch caused a fair amount of 'pucker factor', especially ID threading into a shoulder. Thank you-know-who for dial indicators on a lathe carriage...

But I got around that as Brownells had 40 tpi tap and dies.  )

Bill


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## KenG (Feb 21, 2014)

I checked out the SB1001 and G0752 (similar to PM1022) manuals today. The SB does not have a true metric ratio pulley, 32T (128) vs 127T. Also as Bill points out it will not do 40 TPI, used on a lot of MPT model pipe fittings. There is always the option of using a die but it would be nicer to be able to cut the threads as well.

Does nobody have an informed opinion on the PM1022 lathe?

Ken


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## Ray C (Feb 21, 2014)

KenG said:


> I checked out the SB1001 and G0752 (similar to PM1022) manuals today. The SB does not have a true metric ratio pulley, 32T (128) vs 127T. Also as Bill points out it will not do 40 TPI, used on a lot of MPT model pipe fittings. There is always the option of using a die but it would be nicer to be able to cut the threads as well.
> 
> Does nobody have an informed opinion on the PM1022 lathe?
> 
> Ken



Given that I do a lot of work with Matt, I will do my best to get more info but, what folks have stated here is true.  I already verified the information about the metric thread pitches.  I have a question...  Do you need this primarily for metric threading?  If so, it's remotely possible a metric unit could be obtained.  These machines were originally metric and were converted to US.  The factory actively produces both versions but, getting a metric one in the US is not typical.  Most of the time, a minimum order is 50 machines -but if anyone can pull it off, it would be Matt.

Ray


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## k1pyp (Feb 21, 2014)

KenG said:


> I checked out the SB1001 and G0752 (similar to PM1022) manuals today. The SB does not have a true metric ratio pulley, 32T (128) vs 127T. Also as Bill points out it will not do 40 TPI, used on a lot of MPT model pipe fittings. There is always the option of using a die but it would be nicer to be able to cut the threads as well.
> 
> Does nobody have an informed opinion on the PM1022 lathe?
> 
> Ken



I made a brief comparison of 1022v and G0602 (G0752 w/o variable speed control) in Post #21 http://www.hobby-machinist.com/show...er-a-PM-1022v-Anyone-want-to-talk-me-down-LOL all based on spec sheet.

Similar comparison (based on spec sheet) can be made with G0752 with some changes:
The main advantage of PM1022 V over G0752 are:

 -Power cross feed
 -Speed control (both use variable DC motor but g0752 uses 3 pulley settings (100-800 rpm, 160-1300 rpm, 250-2000 rpm) whereas PM1022v uses 2 pulley setting (50-1000, 100-2000 rpm)
 -Half nut is not used for powerfeed.  There is a key cut into to the lead screw for driving a worm gear for both longitudinal and cross feed.  G0752 uses the half nut for both powerfeed and threading.

 The main advantage of G0752 seems to that there is more threading option.

Other than looking at the spec sheet, I cannot compare PM1022V with other lathes because I don't have experience with other machines.  So far 1022V is working out well (especially the power feeds) and seemed to be built well.


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## k1pyp (Feb 21, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Given that I do a lot of work with Matt, I will do my best to get more info but, what folks have stated here is true.  I already verified the information about the metric thread pitches.  I have a question...  Do you need this primarily for metric threading?  If so, it's remotely possible a metric unit could be obtained.  These machines were originally metric and were converted to US.  The factory actively produces both versions but, getting a metric one in the US is not typical.  Most of the time, a minimum order is 50 machines -but if anyone can pull it off, it would be Matt.
> 
> Ray



Metric version cuts .8mm pitch but not .7 mm pitch so he will not be able to thread M4 coarse pitch.


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## KenG (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks for the response Ray,

A little background. I migrated to the US from Australia about 15 years ago. Back in Australia I had done a machining course using Colchester lathes and had an old Keighley Lifts lathe I never had much time to use and never really set up. Later on I bought a 3 in 1 thinking it was ideal for my restricted space but I was really disappointed in it. For this last reason I am looking for a better quality machine than the base Chinese models.

For the live steam work I am building a 2.5 inch scale model locomotive from machined parts. I need to correct some of these and also make up a number of small accessories plus build some cars to pull behind it. Most of this work would be straight machining for which power feed on both axes would be ideal. The live steam hobby uses model taper pipe threads of 40 and 27 TPI. While most of the fittings I would make up would have tapped sockets it may be handy to machine some straight male threads. Similarly I use the smaller metric fasteners as they have a good "scale" appearance but these are mostly bought and only occasionally would I need to machine a thread. So the SB1001 or PM1022 lathes would do about everything I need in the short term with the occasional use of a die where the threading pitch is not available. Of the 2, the PM has more of the features I want but the SB is a bit smaller and seem to be a better quality level than the base Chinese models.

My friends in the hobby who build serious live steam locomotive models recommend a 12 x 36 or 14 x 36 lathe. But they also say they miss having a smaller lathe for making the fittings etc. that are my primary need. But given my experience with older professional grade equipment I fear that I will be disappointed with a small hobby lathe. With the cheap prices for the Chinese lathes, cost is not the first concern, rather the space they are going to take up. 

I also need a milling machine and here all my live steam friends say they wish they have larger machines. My ideal set up for space would be Bill's combination of an SB1001 and a PM25 whereas the optimum live steam shop seems to be a 12" or 14" lathe and a Bridgeport style knee mill. 

So I appreciate everyone's responses. I realize I am not alone in trying to balance my space requirements with the benefit of having larger machines particularly if I want to build another model from scratch after I finish this one. Although it seems either the SB or PM would meet my basic needs a larger lathe may have all the features I want and I get the impression they are better quality of manufacture. Is this the direction I should be looking?

Ken


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## wrmiller (Feb 22, 2014)

You and I are more alike than not, it would appear.  

I didn't know about PM when I bought my little SB, so I bought it as it was the closest to meeting my basic requirements even though I knew I would have to come up with some work arounds. THEN I heard about PM... *sigh*

My work envelope is no where as big as yours, i.e., the live steam environment, but if I had the ability to do-over with my current space restrictions, my choices would have been a PM1127 lathe and a PM30MV-L mill. Big enough and featured enough to do 'almost' everything I would ever need. There are other machines just slightly larger, but there are some things I just won't tolerate like being restricted by old-school gear head machines speeds or needing 3-phase just to enjoy a part-time hobby. Just a few of my personal twitches...  

Now in the dream world where I have all the space I need, I still wouldn't go huge, but I would step up to a PM935TV mill and a PM1340GT with variable speed head. I may be wrong, but I think both of those are single phase 220, and for their size and price point are some of the best machines I've seen. 

It's always good to have dreams.

A more recent pic of my little shop





Bill


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## Ray C (Feb 22, 2014)

KenG said:


> Thanks for the response Ray,
> 
> A little background. I migrated to the US from Australia about 15 years ago. Back in Australia I had done a machining course using Colchester lathes and had an old Keighley Lifts lathe I never had much time to use and never really set up. Later on I bought a 3 in 1 thinking it was ideal for my restricted space but I was really disappointed in it. For this last reason I am looking for a better quality machine than the base Chinese models.
> 
> ...



Ken,

Size wise, a 12 or 14" lathe or PM45/932 type mill would be overkill by a factor of 100 for the work you intend to do.  You and many others are stuck in a tough position because, it's hard to find a full-featured lathe in a small package.  On the flip-side, (and I say this with all sincerity) most lathes between 12" to 14" swing have about the same features in terms of max/min RPM, thread cutting ability etc.  The ideal set of features and versatility come (in my opinion) on lathes like the PM1340GT, 1440HD and 1440RML.  Those are HUGE and physically impractical for what you need but, they have no problem doing what you need them to do.  It's when you get to 15" or larger lathes whereby they become so cumbersome and limited in max RPM that they are truly differentiated from smaller lathes.

I am very well aware of this issue and so is Matt (at Precision Matthews).  He is looking to find the ideal, perfect lathe for model makers.  We have discussed the features at length and he has gone so far as to design prototypes and get estimates for initial castings etc.  He is also talking to the factory about re-doing the 1127.   He would love to address that market.  The problem though, is that a truly fully featured 10 or 11" lathe will cost 5 - $6,000.  Everybody says they want one -until it's time to reach for the wallet.

There are lathes and mills made for the medical and dental fields that will do what you want but, you cannot afford them -unless you have $80,000 or more to spare.  There are also some modern production jeweler's lathes and engravers that would be useful but, they too cost in the 20-$40,000 range and most of these are CNC now.  I will break down and show you what I mean... I know this will only cause you pain and agony -and for that reason, I never shared these links  until now:  http://www.rolanddga.com/products/milling/jwx30/ 


I wish I had comforting words, but I don't so, I'll just speak the truth...  With the exception of the 1022 and 1127, most other lathes in that size range or smaller, are either toys or disposable junk.  The PM1022 and 1127 are actually made well with high grade bearings.  The problem is the design is limited in threading ranges and I'm not crazy about the spindle.  You could fix the spindle easily enough.   With enough effort, you could redesign the gears...  Maybe the other alternative is to do what some folks do and trick-out a Taig or Sherline.

If I hear of any break-throughs, I'll let you know...  I'm in this business now and trust me, I am looking to find a sweet little lathe...


Ray

EDIT:  Just want to be clear, the little SB lathes are pretty well made with good quality guts.


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## wrmiller (Feb 22, 2014)

If you and Matt can come up with a 10-11" lathe that has all or almost all of the features of a good 13", and can keep it somewhere around 5k I'll pop for one. Not sure what I'd do with the SB, but I'll worry about than when/if we cross that bridge.

Unfortunately though, this is not going to be a high-volume product. There are people who will buy it of course, but it won't be in the numbers seen in the 7x or even 9x market.

If this scenario is even remotely possible, I had better start saving my pennies...  )

Bill


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## KenG (Feb 23, 2014)

Ray,

Going back to the Grizzly site I see their SB1002 lathe is about what you are talking about. I had totally overlooked this model as it's $5,000 price puts it up with Chinese lathes that are way bigger than any I had contemplated. But for the same money the PM-1340GT seems to be twice the machine with similar quality.

Against the cheaper competition, the only market for a $5,000 10" lathe would be for one with modern features such as not only DC variable speed drive but also ball screws and servo motors to eliminate the gear changes altogether, have a total range of feeds and threads and be set up for CNC operation like the PM-45M-CNC mill.  

For now I think I will look seriously at Bill's recommendation of the PM1127 lathe. From the delivery horror story on another thread it looks like there may be a last batch on the way.


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## Ray C (Feb 23, 2014)

KenG said:


> Ray,
> 
> Going back to the Grizzly site I see their SB1002 lathe is about what you are talking about. I had totally overlooked this model as it's $5,000 price puts it up with Chinese lathes that are way bigger than any I had contemplated. But for the same money the PM-1340GT seems to be twice the machine with similar quality.
> 
> ...



By all means, the SB1002 is a good, well made piece of equipment and if I were the "Jay Leno" of shop equipment, I'd have one.  To many people, it's light weight (ease of portability) is worth the money.  As far as capabilities and functionality vs a 1340GT, the little SB is out-gunned by 10:1.   As far as new production manual lathes are concerned -and in it's quality/price/weight range, the 1340GT is king of the hill -no question about it.

A long time ago, when I purchased my 1236, I was on the fence about the 1340.  At the time, I was just a weekend metal-head and the 1236 was the right choice.  My situation has changed and the 1340GT or the 1440HD would better suit my needs now; the main differentiator being ease of gear changes on both machines and in the case of the 1440HD, an extra 1000lbs of mass.  The 1340 is the smoothest of them all -nice attention to detail.  

The closest to what a model maker might appreciate (and that is currently in production) is something like a Republic http://www.lagun.com/high-precision-lathes.php  The same units are also sold by Eisen.  They aren't cheap with price tags starting around 15 grand and going up to 30+.  They're not lightweight by any means; these are Hardinge knock-offs.  Sharp has a line of these too (from a different factory) and they're supposedly closer to the original Hardinge's.   I don't even bother to price these things since it's not going to happen in my lifetime...  They are virtually impossible to find on the used market.  Replacement bearings cost more than most people's cars.

This is a little outside the realm of Hobby discussion so, I'll end it there...

Ray


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## KenG (Apr 30, 2014)

Quick update. My PM1022 arrived today.

Ken


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## wrmiller (Apr 30, 2014)

Very nice! Did you get a stand, or are you going to put it on a bench?

Bill


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## KenG (May 2, 2014)

Thanks Bill,

I am planning on doing what you did and mount it on a tool box. The Chinese small lathe stands I have seen were flimsy and I need the space underneath for storage. My plan was to get the machine home and clean it up and take it apart if I needed to finish what the factory didn't.  I first inspection it looks pretty good so I might just flush out the gearbox with new oil.

I am now reading the milling machine posts with interest.

Ken


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## wrmiller (May 2, 2014)

The tool box idea worked well for me, as space is limited and I also needed storage. I thought a 40" box would be big enough, but mine is quickly filling with 'stuff'.  )

Bill


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