# QCTP holder



## DiscoDan (Jul 30, 2018)

I am looking at the holders on the Aloris site as a starting point to figure out which one I would need for my 12x36 Craftsman with the commercial saddle and cross feed. Do I need AXA, BXA or CXA? I am not at home so I can't measure it.


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## Norseman C.B. (Jul 30, 2018)

BXA would be my choice................


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## Lordbeezer (Jul 30, 2018)

Think after you measure you might see a axa might fit better.


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## Dabbler (Jul 30, 2018)

On my 12X36, the AXA works well.  Mime *can* take a BXA, but the cost of the holders and lack of vertical adjustment room makes an AXA the right one for me.  It works fine.


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## DiscoDan (Jul 30, 2018)

Dabbler, do you have the commercial cross slide or the non-commercial? It looks like the non-commercial one is taller than my commercial. I have the measurements so I guess I will find out when I get home.


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## DAT510 (Jul 30, 2018)

The important measurement is from the top surface of your compound to the Center Line of the Chuck, as it determines what size QCTP will fit.  

The Shars image below is a good example.


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## DiscoDan (Jul 30, 2018)

That is very helpful Dat510. I will have to check out their site too.


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## ELHEAD (Jul 30, 2018)

Norseman C.B. said:


> BXA would be my choice................



Used BXA on mine against much sage advice on this forum. Have been very pleased. Bought used w/5 tool holders for  less than 75$. Happy happy happy
Dave


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## Dabbler (Jul 30, 2018)

Dave, If it fit my lathe I would have considered it.  You got a great find!  Under those circumstances, I'd have done the same if I had the height.


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## DiscoDan (Jul 30, 2018)

Looks like AXA will work. From top of cross slide to center of chuck us about 1 1/8". Now to find and buy one!  Thanks everyone.


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## DiscoDan (Jul 30, 2018)

Follow up question. Wedge type or piston type? Pros and cons?


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## Norseman C.B. (Jul 30, 2018)

Wedge is the better holder of the two IMO. I've used both.................


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## DAT510 (Jul 30, 2018)

The action of the Wedge QCTP's Locks the Tool Holder both against the height adjuster (downward pressure) and against the dove tails (outward pressure).  IMO Better.

The Piston Style applies only outward pressure against the dove tails, and you have to trust the tool holder is seated against it height adjuster.    

Both styles use the same holders, so the only savings is with the initial purchase of the tool post.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 31, 2018)

If you want to save some money, look at the sets for sale at CDCO and at All Industrial Tools.  Compare the delivered prices there with the ones on eBay, and go for it.  Import tool posts and holders are not necessarily of consistent quality, but the low pricing makes it worth the gamble.  Return for exchange or refund anything you do not like.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 31, 2018)

I find the BXA fits my 12 inch lathe perfectly, but to be safe you really need to measure. Ilke that the BXA is bigger, therefore stronger more rigid. I've not tried the piston type, but it does appear that they would not be as good as the wedge type. 

I bought a genuine Aloris with a few tool holders, plus some non genuine holders, but I've not yet had the opportunity to compare them. The non genuine are softer in a file test, and the finish is a bit rougher, especially the threads, but then they are cheaper, so time will tell.


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## DiscoDan (Jul 31, 2018)

I ordered the BXA last night from CDCO plus the indexable turning tool set. Looking forward to trying it on my first turns with this lathe. Thanks to jbolt for his very helpful research and everyone who responded here for helping me make the decision.


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## wa5cab (Aug 1, 2018)

It is of course now too late to back out as you've bought a BXA, but in my opinion you would have been better off buying a better quality AXA rather than the BXA that you bought.  You are going to find in the future that virtually all tooling is going to be more expensive for little or no performance improvement.

On the subject of wedge versus piston, piston type performance varies directly with the size of the piston and with the piston shape where it contacts the holder.  The Chinese-built units that I have seen photos of all use a smaller circular contact shape.  The first foreign QCTP competitor to Aloris was, I think, Yuasa in Japan.  I bought their full AXA set when I bought my 3996 38 years ago (and as I recall, paid more numerically than you just paid for the CDCO).  And both are still working fine.  The piston contact shape is rectangular and significantly larger than the circular Chinese ones.  However, today the price difference between Chinese made piston and wedge sets is negligible, and still cheaper than the few used Yuasa's that I have seen on eBay.  So the wedge type is the better choice.

On another subject that is independent of all of the above, you should as soon as you can afford them buy several more #1 (201) and/or #2 (202) holders.  All of the sets that I have ever seen only come with one of each.  With only one, the only advantage that a QCTP has over the 4-way Turret is that the vertical adjustment is more convenient.  The first job that you run that requires two or more cutters that have to be mounted in the #1 holder, you are going to be back to having to get out the Allen wrenches and then adjusting the height every time that you need to change cutters.  I currently have about a dozen #101's (201's for you), most with a cutter already mounted and adjusted.


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## jdedmon91 (Aug 1, 2018)

DiscoDan said:


> I ordered the BXA last night from CDCO plus the indexable turning tool set. Looking forward to trying it on my first turns with this lathe. Thanks to jbolt for his very helpful research and everyone who responded here for helping me make the decision.



First of all did you get the wedge type? It just works better than the piston ones. Second the tool holder set you purchased is the T style or the CCMT style? I prefer the C style of inserts because with one holder you can face and turn without changing holders. Also the inserts fit the corresponding boring bars that saves you inventory of inserts to have on hand 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DiscoDan (Aug 1, 2018)

wa5cab, at first I did order the AXA but I decided to change that for a couple reasons. First, I wanted to be able to adjust the height of the holder as little as possible to get the cutter centered with the chuck. The BXA will hold stronger 1/2" shank cutters so I will only have to adjust height about 1/8" up. Second, the person I took lathe and mill classes from stressed setting up for the least amount of deflection. I thought the BXA did both of these things slightly better than the AXA for a very small cost difference.

jdedmon91, I got the wedge type. For the cutters, they use the triangular T style inserts. In my lathe class the cutter used T style I think and we faced and turned with the same setup.


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## Winegrower (Aug 1, 2018)

In my experience there is no difference between piston and wedge toolposts, at the level of precision anybody reading this should be worried about.


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## macardoso (Aug 1, 2018)

I run a Enco 12x36 with an AXA sized wedge toolpost.  Toolholders up to 5/8" are available.  I can stall my 1.5 HP motor long before I have problems with the rigidity of the toolpost.  I've been happy with it.  Nothing wrong with the BXA either, but less adjustment room.   You will do great with either.


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## jdedmon91 (Aug 1, 2018)

Winegrower said:


> In my experience there is no difference between piston and wedge toolposts, at the level of precision anybody reading this should be worried about.



I prefer the wedge type simply it seems easier to put the tool block on the post 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dabbler (Aug 1, 2018)

i|'d have gone with wedge but the only one available for impulse purchase was a piston.  It is AXA on a 12X36 and I've had great repeatability and better than expected rigidity.

Note: I use Rocker (Armstrong), 4-way AND QCTP  all on the same lathe, depending on what I'm doing.  |for the bet rigidity, I use 4-way, every time. For versatility, I use the QCTP, and for hard-to-reach things I use the rocker with 1/4" HSS tool bits.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 2, 2018)

It came today! Very quick shipping.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 2, 2018)

Crapola....after messing with it for a bit and considering the t nut I would need I realized that the main bolt/stud (not sure if it has an official name) is 5/8" but the slot in the cross slide is also 5/8". The only way this will work is if I open up the slot. I looked on the Shars site since they have detailed measurements of the tool holders and even they don't say what the main bolt/stud size is. What is everyone doing to solve the issue? Widening the slot?


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## Lordbeezer (Aug 2, 2018)

I was taught from a early age to modify the cheaper part.i know that doesn't help you any but wanted to throw it out there.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 2, 2018)

Do I really need to use a t nut? Could I just make a flat piece to fit in the horizontal slot and thread it to fit the post? The horizontal slot is 5/16".


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## mickri (Aug 2, 2018)

I have a craftsman 12x36 also and am making a norman style qctp.  To get started I used a 5/8 carriage bolt.  I had to slightly file the edges to fit the slot and also had to file the top of the bolt and file the edge in two places so the bolt will fit in the slot.  I will make a proper T nut and 5/8 stud in the future.  I'll post a picture of the bolt when I get a chance to take one.   It will at least get you started and only takes a couple of minutes.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 2, 2018)

Mickri, is your slot opening 5/8" like mine? If so, will you widen the slot to fit the t nut? I think you idea of using a 5/8 carriage bolt is pretty smart. I had a 1/2" that I put in and it almost fit.


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## DAT510 (Aug 2, 2018)

Looks like the Shars AXA uses a 14mm stud vs a 16mm of the BXA.


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## mickri (Aug 2, 2018)

I will not even attempt to widen the slot.  Doing so accurately is probably beyond my skill level and I would then have a non-standard/modified compound.  Who knows what problems that might create down the road.  I probably misspoke using the term "T nut."  Here is a sketch of the compound slot.



And here is what I am thinking of making to replace the carriage bolt.  I left off the threads.  Too hard to draw quickly.




My T nut would be a 1/4 x 15/16 x 2" with a 5/8 threaded post.  The post will either be welded in place or screwed into a threaded hole in the base plat.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 2, 2018)

mickri, that is what I had in mind too. I think I can easily fab that


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## wa5cab (Aug 3, 2018)

Well, as I said in the beginning, the BXA is too large for an Atlas.  And costs more to operate.  But people new to machining seem to have the notion that a BXA is somehow superior to an AXA and will make them a better machinist.  It isn't and it won't.

Most vendors of QCTP's will list tool posts that will work out of the box with an Atlas.  Some are more expensive than their cheapest offerings and some aren't.  But before investing in a QCTP. you really should make sure that you know what you are getting.  It is, after all, not a trivial expenditure.

As I have said before, people who have bought a BXA for their Atlas usually fall into two groups - those who will admit that they wish that they hadn't and those who wish it but won't admit it.  Virtually every time that I have written this, on average 2.3 people reply that they bought one and are glad that they did.  I am too polite to make an honest reply to that.


On the subject of using a carriage bolt instead of a T-nut and stud to secure the TP to the compound slide, the short answer is "DON'T".  Sooner or later, you will probably break the T-slot out of the top of the compound.  Plus the square part of the proper carriage bolt is not made for preventing rotation in a slot.  It is tapered to allow it to easily cut into the wood that it is made for use in.  This means that the square part is initially in contact with only a few thousandths of the lower part of the slot.  And after a time you will start to notice dings in the lower part of the sides of the slot as the bolt cuts into it.  You will never see this from a proper fitting T-nut.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 3, 2018)

wa5cab, I may eventually get to agree with you. Can you tell me the size of your AXA center bolt? From the bit of research I did last night it appears that it would only be 1/16 smaller than my 5/8 bolt, which wouldn't really leave enough meat for a t nut in my 5/8 slot. I appreciate your input.


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## T Bredehoft (Aug 3, 2018)

What you need to hold the BXA base unit to the compound is a nut.  The larger thenut, the stronger it is. The head of a carriage bold will be nowhere near strong enough. neither will 5/16 thick steel. (maded to fit the entire slot) will be what you need. The tighter fit the the better/stronger it will be. Ideally the screw would be tapped into the compound but that isn't a realistic solution. Unless you use a full sized T nut, you won't be happy with your lathe.


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## mickri (Aug 3, 2018)

Robert thanks for the heads up on carriage bolts.   I don't think that I will experience those problems because I  milled the flats on the bolt to just under 5/8 and used my mill to flatten the head and to square off two sides of the bolt to fit in the bottom 1" x 3/16 slot.   I have a rather beefy boring bar holder that came with my lathe and a 4 way tool post holder.   The nut on both of those is no bigger than the head of the carriage bolt.  I haven't made a proper nut because I don't have a piece of steel to make it out of.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 3, 2018)

I just sent a note to the CDCO folks to see what they recommend. I may end up going with the AXA. Don't say anything wa5cab!!!


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## DiscoDan (Aug 3, 2018)

The CDCO folks got back to me: 

"Actually the BXA Bolt threads is metric M16 x2. so the bolt diameter should be 16 mm . Our AXA Bolt threads is M14 x 1.5 , so the bolt diameter should be 14 mm , but BXA is much better for 12" lathe like yours. If you use AXA, the holders will always at the top position , no big room for the cutters up down adjustment. Maybe you can consider to cut the BXA bold diameter a litter smaller to try it."

So two comments: (1) their comment about the tool holders always being in the top position is one reason I went BXA to begin with and (2) it sounds like they are suggesting that I modify the bottom part of the bolt by reducing the diameter and re-threading, which I did consider. I'll be in Tempe for a week so I'll have time to consider options.


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## markba633csi (Aug 3, 2018)

Yes you could just make a flat threaded piece instead of a t-nut- don't modify your compound slot
I was going to put in a vote for AXA but you pulled the trigger too soon LOL
mark


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## DiscoDan (Aug 3, 2018)

Thanks markba633csi. That's was one of my thoughts as expressed in a previous reply, so we are on the same page. It was good enough for the lantern style post. I do ultimately want to come up with a t nut solution but don't want to let perfection get in the way of good enough for now.


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## Old Rivers (Aug 3, 2018)

Very interesting thread. I, too am contemplating buying a AXA QCTP for my 10" Atlas TH-42.
One question I have is re. the "hump" in the compound casting, behind the tool post mounting area. Will this hump interfere with mounting the AXA? What is good practice - shim up the AXA base using a large flat washer, or relieve (mill) the hump ?

Bill


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## Dabbler (Aug 3, 2018)

For my AXA, I just made a new T nut that fit to the 1/2 thou.  it works fine.  I wouldn't mess with the late to make it fit.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 3, 2018)

Old Rivers, I have no hump in mine.


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## FarmDad (Aug 3, 2018)

I used a belt sander and 80 grit  to remove the hump from the area the toolholder base sets .  I was able to feather the grind back into the original shape enough that it doesnt look too bad .

ETA

Also an Atlas 10 inch .


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## Bi11Hudson (Aug 3, 2018)

As usual, slow and well behind the curve*... * That's my normal state of affairs.

I have both a Craftsman 12X36 (101.27440) and a 9X19 Grizzly. (G1550 / G4000)  Both have AXA tool holdders, the tooling being interchangable, except for height. One AXA is a Shars, the other I don't know. And I'm not going over to the shop to find out. Both holders are wedge type. The AXA is a perfect fit, *for my application*. Fitting both machines and being of lower cost for additions. Usually, I do fairly small (<2") work. I commisioned the Craftsman because I got into cutting the disk off of disk brakes. I had a use for the hubs. The disks were too large for the Griz.

The Craftsman may be a "Commercial" version, I honestly don't know. I _was told_ the "Norton" threading box was only used a couple of years (51-52) on that model. That may be an indicator, for anyone that really cares. I don't.

The studs and T-nuts for both were fitted to the machines. Turning down the solid end to the appropriate size and adjusting the T-nuts to a smooth fit. In neither case do I remember the starting size, just that I had to mill a whisker off the T-nuts that I used to fit just so.

The horizontal mill (Atlas MFC) does not use a tool post *but*; I found a source for 3/8 square headed bolts that were a perfect fit to the T-slots, with the exception of being a little shy on the bottom. They were too small to use on one lathe and too large for the other one. I bring it up merely as a reference.

Bill Hudson​


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## welderr (Aug 3, 2018)

If you have the milling attachment it is a simple job , you just mount the compound in place of the milling vice and mill it down for clearance


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## jdedmon91 (Aug 3, 2018)

DiscoDan said:


> Crapola....after messing with it for a bit and considering the t nut I would need I realized that the main bolt/stud (not sure if it has an official name) is 5/8" but the slot in the cross slide is also 5/8". The only way this will work is if I open up the slot. I looked on the Shars site since they have detailed measurements of the tool holders and even they don't say what the main bolt/stud size is. What is everyone doing to solve the issue? Widening the slot?



I looked at the other posts, so my suggestion has some thought. Make a T nut to fit the slot, then make a stud up that uses the smaller thread on the compound side to thread into the stud, locktite the stud in. That way you have the support you need in the compound and the screw fits in properly 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wa5cab (Aug 3, 2018)

DiscoDan said:


> wa5cab, I may eventually get to agree with you. Can you tell me the size of your AXA center bolt? From the bit of research I did last night it appears that it would only be 1/16 smaller than my 5/8 bolt, which wouldn't really leave enough meat for a t nut in my 5/8 slot. I appreciate your input.



Dan,

The stud diameter that came with my Yuasa years ago is 9/16"-18 UNF.  9/16" is about a quarter MM larger than M14.

The T-Nut is a slip fit into the T-slot both vertically and horizontally.  I didn't measure the length of the T-nut but looking at it, it is at most a 32nd of an inch under the distance through the slot.  Makes it easy to consistently center up the TP on top of the compound slide.

I don't understand the statements "If you use AXA, the holders will always _(be?)_ at the top position" and "no big room for the cutters up down adjustment".  Several have made the first one, which is an optical illusion and which is misleading.  The BXA holders are taller than the AXA.  But the top of the cutters must in the case of 99% or all cutters always be at the same distance above the top of the ways because the cutter must be on center.  The elevation of the spindle in the headstock above the ways is not adjustable except on a horizontal mill.  The second statement is misleading, probably deliberately so.  CDCO naturally don't want to see anyone whom they try to talk into buying the BXA (or CXA or DXA) deciding to go with the less expensive (from now on) next smaller size.  The vertical adjustment must only be sufficient to get the cutter on center.  If it will do that (in either case), then it is sufficient, regardless of what it seems to look like.

One other unrelated consideration is that several people have used the term "bolt" instead of "stud".  They may not have actually meant "bolt" which means a threaded rod with a fixed position head (regardless of the type or shape of the head).  If for any reason one absolutely must use a bolt, you have to very carefully adjust the length so that it is impossible to make the tip of the bolt touch the bottom of the slot.  As little as 0.010" too long will eventually result in the failure of the top of the compound.  The stud should be screwed into the T-nut until it raises the T-nut off of the bottom of the slot and against the top of the slot.  Then unscrew it half a turn.  The shouldered nut on top must be free-running on the threads so that it does not rotate the stud while torquing it.  If it insists upon doing so, back the stud out another half turn.


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## wa5cab (Aug 3, 2018)

I will add one more comment - if for some reason (maybe someone gave you a shoe-box full of them) you need to be able to run a 1/2" square cutter or cutter holder, you can now buy AXA holders made to take a 1/2" square bar with the top at the same elevation as a 3/8".  And as is the case with the normal AXA holders and 1/2" square bars, you can physically squeeze in a 5/8" square bar.  They are called "XL".  At the moment, the only thing that I find on eBay are 102 XL.  But they did offer last year a 101 XL as I bought one right after they first showed up.


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## Round in circles (Aug 11, 2018)

DiscoDan said:


> It came today! Very quick shipping.
> 
> View attachment 273325




 You may find it prudent to purchase a couple of dozen tool holder high tensile precision set screws .. Several of mine in the spare tool holders  turned out to be made of Chinese liquorice  that was neither metric or imperial sized . Resulting in the Allen key tearing out the hexagonal cups as I tightened them down on the cutting tools . 

Both  set screws in the boring bar holder part of the bar holder  sheared off long before the clamp was tight enough to stop my boring bar rotating when I was using it to bore out a 3 inch deep by 2 " dia hole in mild steel . despite my ensuring there was a clearance  to grip the 19 mm bar that was supposedly to be used. You have to rotate align the cut in the sleeve  with the slot of the tool holder too , mine as almost 90% out of alignment , luckily I spotted the problem before trying to tighten it up   .  I also had to use a thin angle grinder blade & grinder to open the cut up in the sleeve to give more clamping movement .


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## wa5cab (Aug 11, 2018)

A common complaint with the Chinese made holders is that although the holders themselves are good, the set screws are not.  I'm sure that the majority of the holders that I have (all except the original set that came with the Yuasa tool post) were made somewhere in the Orient, as they mostly came from Wholesale Tools.  But I've never had the problem with them.  Maybe they were all made in Taiwan.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 11, 2018)

I found the t nut I need on ebay and it is drilled for 14-1.5 threads. I want to try and make my own post so I picked up some 5/8" cold rolled steel bar at Home Depot that I will turn down to 14mm for the t nut end. Measuring both the existing post and the 5/8" bar, the 5/8" bar is about 0.33mm smaller. Assuming it is straight, is that too much difference to cut 16-2 threads using a die?


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## Dabbler (Aug 11, 2018)

I bought a 14mm MF tap at my local store,  Sorry 16-2 won't work.

Robert, I found it easy to buy Grd 8 set screws to swap in my holders very cheaply....  It was worth it just for the peace of mind.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 11, 2018)

I think I answered my own question. I found it at www.engineersedge.com. For 16-2 threads the maximum stock size is 15.962mm and the minimum is 15.682mm. My bar stock is just above the minimum. I may try to find something bigger and turn it down closer to the 15.962mm.


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## wa5cab (Aug 12, 2018)

Why would you be looking at M16-2 when the T-nut you bought is M14-1.5?


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## DiscoDan (Aug 12, 2018)

The post that came with the BXA is threaded M16-2 and I want to keep that size from the top nut through the body and the turn it down to M14 to go into the t nut. If you don't turn it to down to M14 there is no meat left for threads on the narrow side of the vertical part of the t nut.


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## wa5cab (Aug 12, 2018)

Then what you will need to do is to first turn one end of the M16-2.0 stud down to 14.0 MM for a distance equal to the thickness (height) of the T-Nut.  Then cut a thread relief groove about 1 MM wide down to the minor diameter of M14-1.5.  Thread the stub with a die nut up flush against the M16 diameter.  Repeat with the die nut turned around to cut the thread up against the shoulder.  Confirm that the M14 will screw into the top of the T-nut until the M16 shoulder contacts the top of the nut.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 12, 2018)

Thanks wa5cab. One question. Is the thread relief groove supposed to separate the 16mm and 14mm sections?


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## FarmDad (Aug 12, 2018)

> Thanks wa5cab. One question. Is the thread relief groove supposed to separate the 16mm and 14mm sections?



You will be threading up to a shoulder  so you will need a relief  to dis-engage your tool  ( assuming single point threading )  and it will ensure that you have a square shoulder to tighten to on your t nut no matter how you thread the stock .


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## wa5cab (Aug 12, 2018)

Yes.  Technically, it is part of the M4 sub-section.  You could also try it the other way around.  Turn down the M14 part, thread it, run the die on reversed to cut a little closer to the shoulder, and screw the  stud into the T-nut  finger tight and measure the remaining gap.  The only purpose, as you already indicated that you were going to use a die nut instead of trying to single-point it, is to ensure that the shoulder hits the nut rather than standing proud when the incomplete male thread bottoms in the female thread.  Depending upon what the two materials involved are, the interference fit could lead to galling and difficulty in removing the stud at a later date.

The reason that you want the shoulder to bottom on the face of the nut is that it will be a little stiffer assembly that way.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 12, 2018)

Ok, got it now. I have never threaded up to a shoulder before. Thanks


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## wa5cab (Aug 12, 2018)

I didn't read FarmDad's post before writing my reply as I think I was writing while he was writing.  I remembered that you had earlier stated your intention to cut the threads with a die nut.  The normal reason for the relief groove is to give you time to stop the lathe before the cutter hits the shoulder. and in that case, the groove would have probably been wider than my suggested 1 MM.  I think that the typical relief groove is wide enough to give you one or one and one-half revolutions in which to stop.  That would be if you were cutting the thread on the lathe (usually called single-pointing it).

Another way in which to do it with the die nut is to counter-bore the hole in the tee-nut.  But that is better done before tapping it.  And I think I remembered that you already had the threaded nut.


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