# Ebay issue, how to handle bait and switch...



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

Not sure if this belongs in this forum, if not, please move it.  

So, I bought some cheap drill bits from Ebay.  I did receive a package after a long, long time.  Was expecting to see 10 carbide twist drill bits - like the listing showed.  Instead there were a set of 10 1/8" carbide end mills.  Since I don't have a mill, they are kind of worthless to me.  When I went to the listing, I see it has changed.  It is identical to the original, except for at the very bottom of the page, there is, in fine print, end mills.  This tiny insertion of 2 words is only visible after scrolling down 2 pages.  The picture at the top of the listing is still of carbide twist drills with a standard point.

I contacted the seller and said, this is not what I ordered.  I did not order end mills, I ordered carbide twist drills - like in the picture, and in the listing.  Since they are in China, they said, "it is expensive and timely to ship back merchandise", how about you take my offer of a $3 refund?  The listing was only for $9 or so, with free shipping, so it's not a huge deal.  But it frosts my posterior to think that this person really is a fraudster, and will continue to behave this way.  That changed listing is fraudulent in intent.  (Picture of twist drills, description somewhat vague, tiny print at bottom of page saying end mill.)  And that listing was probably changed due to complaints.

What are my choices?
1. Report to Ebay
2. Contact my CC company to reverse the charges
3. Accept the $3 and move on...
4. Ask for more.  The email from the vendor said they were open to suggestions.
5. Bad review
6. Some combination of the above
7. Some practical and effective ideas from all of you

I really had wanted the drills.  I freaking broke my first carbide drill (from Shars) a while back, while trying to drill a pilot hole in O1 steel.  I must of had that Shars bit for 5 minutes before I broke it!

What would you guys (and girls) do?  For some reason, I'm more unhappy about this than can be justified.  Thought I'd ask the collective, prior to acting.  

Overall, I've had decent experiences on Ebay.


----------



## cathead (Mar 2, 2020)

6      Usually if you squaak, it will somehow get resolved in my experience.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

Concise with your response  , care to elaborate?
How do you report to Ebay?


----------



## benmychree (Mar 2, 2020)

Unless your 0-1 steel was heat treated, there was no need to use a carbide drill, it machines easily, at speeds somewhat slower than ordinary steel.  With Chinese tools, you get what you pay for, quality wise.  That said, of course, report to E Bay, and #1,2,&5.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

@cathead Nice, ninja edit!  What's the time limit for editing one's messages? 

I'd be a lot happier with the twist drills, than paying for end mills that I can't effectively use, no matter the discount.  
Just trying to figure out what the squawk should be.


----------



## cathead (Mar 2, 2020)

WobblyHand said:


> @cathead Nice, ninja edit!  What's the time limit for editing one's messages?
> 
> 
> I don't know the exact time for edits but it must be somewhere around 5 minutes.


----------



## Superburban (Mar 2, 2020)

If you look at the top, there should be a link to see what the add said when you bought the items. Click on the link from your purca=hase history, then you should see a page like this.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

@benmychree Somehow I had managed to harden the O1, the original Harbor Freight HSS twist drill kind of melted on me!  Never seen a drill bit do that before.  I had used the bit before, so I knew it wasn't bad.  

Do I just report bait and switch to Ebay?  Do I tell Ebay that I am contacting my CC company, or just contact my CC company?


----------



## Tozguy (Mar 2, 2020)

Contact your cc to reverse the charges pronto.
Send report to ebay.

Offer to return the end mills collect.
Shop for what you need at HF or Princess auto.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

Superburban said:


> If you look at the top, there should be a link to see what the add said when you bought the items.


No mention of end mills in original listing.  Picture was of twist drills.  In "revised" listing, they still use picture of twist drills.  Then they used "weasel words" _end mill_ in small print at very bottom of page (2 pages down of scrolling).  It's a deceptive listing.  In my opinion, it's fraudulent intent.


----------



## JimDawson (Mar 2, 2020)

The 1/8 carbide end mills sound handy if you have a way to use them, and a good price also.  But considering the small amount of money involved I guess I would take the $3.00 credit and move on with life.

I would leave a review stating your experience.  I went through something similar a couple weeks ago.  The item did not match the ad spec, but in my case it worked out fine because the item sent actually had better compatibility with what I was doing.

Unless the O1 is hardened, a cobalt bit would be my choice.

EDIT:  If it work hardened, then the hardness is very thin.  I would recommend a cobalt bit, slow speed, and a lot of pressure.  No coolant or cutting oil.  It also may be possible to use one of those carbide end mills and plunge to get through the hardened part.

BTW, you should be able to edit a post for a couple of hours.


----------



## WesPete66 (Mar 2, 2020)

I hate that kind of business too. Personally I refuse to buy product that is shipping from overseas countries, and/or by a seller located overseas (Europe excluded) due to this.
Beyond that I would hold them to the original offering just for principal.. Get the item replaced or refunded. I can't find it right now (maybe one needs to have a valid purchase in the Ebay system?) but I've opened a "case" thru Ebay before, and Ebay stepped in and mediated the situation. It worked out well in my situation.
Just my opinion..


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> Contact your cc to reverse the charges pronto.
> Send report to ebay.
> 
> Offer to return the end mills collect.
> Shop for what you need at HF or Princess auto.


I'll contact my CC issuer.  Done.  Waiting for a response.

My HF "HSS" twist drill kind of melted in the work hardened O-1.  I now have cobalt HF twist drills.  They are ok for the most part.  I'll try it on that piece.


----------



## RJSakowski (Mar 2, 2020)

WobblyHand said:


> No mention of end mills in original listing.  Picture was of twist drills.  In "revised" listing, they still use picture of twist drills.  Then they used "weasel words" _end mill_ in small print at very bottom of page (2 pages down of scrolling).  It's a deceptive listing.  In my opinion, it's fraudulent intent.



Can you post a link to the listing?  It is easy to get misled by listings.  They're not necessarily intentional deceit.  In many cases, the seller is simply not knowledgeable about what they're selling. 1/8" carbide drills and end mills used in the p.c.b. industry are very similar.   IMO, Amazon is worse yet regarding poor descriptions of offerings.


----------



## middle.road (Mar 2, 2020)

Rule #1 with eBay listings, the pictures do not count for squat, only what is in the description.
The only time we've gotten around that fact was an item we bought stated in the description "To see the pictures for details..."
When Honey is listing items, she writes up a description that would make an English composition class teacher proud.


----------



## JimDawson (Mar 2, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> Can you post a link to the listing?  It is easy to get misled by listings.  They're not necessarily intentional deceit.  In many cases, the seller is simply not knowledgeable about what they're selling. 1/8" carbide drills and end mills used in the p.c.b. industry are very similar.   IMO, Amazon is worse yet regarding poor descriptions of offerings.



I found the listing, looks like drill bits to me.









						10pcs Solid Carbide Drill Bits 1/8inch Metal-working 3.175mm CNC 2-Flute  | eBay
					

Number of Flute:2. Flute Length:20mm.



					www.ebay.com


----------



## middle.road (Mar 2, 2020)

JimDawson said:


> I found the listing, looks like drill bits to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Picture shows drill bits but down in the description is the catch:
*But* - the title states 'drill bits'. That should cover it.
=====================
*Package Contents:*



10 * End Mill
=====================


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

What you are showing is the modified listing.  The listing was changed _*after*_ I bought the item.  I have a copy of the original listing, which has zero mention of end mills.  It's bait and switch.


----------



## DavidR8 (Mar 2, 2020)

There's a couple of paths to possible resolution. 
CC as you've done also eBay sellers tend to rely on reputation. So report to eBay and leave a negative review.
I had a terrible experience with a seller and the threat of a bad review was enough to get a pretty serious partial refund.


----------



## RJSakowski (Mar 2, 2020)

And I found this one. 








						10 Pcs Solid Carbide Drill Bits 3.175mm 1/8" 2 Flutes Straight Shank K10 for sale online | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 10 Pcs Solid Carbide Drill Bits 3.175mm 1/8" 2 Flutes Straight Shank K10 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				



and this one.








						10pcs Solid Carbide End Mill 3.175mm 1/8" 2-Flute Straight Shank K10  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 10pcs Solid Carbide End Mill 3.175mm 1/8" 2-Flute Straight Shank K10 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				



If you look at the descriptions, they are identical.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

Yes, they are all really the same.   The second one is fine - it says it's an end mill.  The pictures are of end mills.  I have no problem with that.  I do have a problem with false photos, or listings with true verbiage at the very end, which negates everything above it.  

The first listing has a bogus title, but at least the picture is of an end mill.  The title is deceptive, and having the actual description that far away from the top is really sleazy in my opinion.  Live and learn, I guess.


----------



## ACHiPo (Mar 2, 2020)

I'd take the lump and any refund I could get and move on.  $9 isn't worth the hassle in my opinion, and the seller's actions suggest it's not worth it to them either.


----------



## Superburban (Mar 2, 2020)

WobblyHand said:


> No mention of end mills in original listing.  Picture was of twist drills.  In "revised" listing, they still use picture of twist drills.  Then they used "weasel words" _end mill_ in small print at very bottom of page (2 pages down of scrolling).  It's a deceptive listing.  In my opinion, it's fraudulent intent.


So you do have them. Is it fraud? I think Ebay would look at it as more of an error, and they did fix the listing. 

You have the choice of taking the $3, or sending it back, which we know will take forever. Did you do the ebay case for not as described? or just contact the seller? Opening the case, Ebay will likely look at it as they offered the partial refund, or offered to let you send them back. What else would you expect from a seller? Do you have enough to prove fraudulent intent? I do not think so. 

My experience, most of these chinese sellers never see the items. They just post the adds, and tell the warehouse to ship. You can even see many different sellers with the same exact listing. I just went through this with a pack of 1/8NPT ball valves. they arrived as 1/8"NPS.  I went through a week of trying to tell them the difference, and show in a photo. I should have just sent them back, but I needed a few for a project. So I ended up buying some adapters. They did change their listing, but all the other sellers with the same add, still say 1/8"NPT. Is it fraud on the other sellers? or just plain ignorance, and not any willingness to share and correct between them? 

There is very little costumer service left on Ebay.


----------



## matthewsx (Mar 2, 2020)

If you want quality tools and good service buy from a reputable business. 

I've already wasted $6 of my time reading and responding to this post. I'm with Jim take the refund and move on or go through the process outlined by eBay to resolve you issue if your time isn't worth much.

John


----------



## RJSakowski (Mar 2, 2020)

All three listings had both end mills and drills in the descriptions.

As I see it, the problem is that, 1 the sellers isn't really know what they're selling. When you look at their store and see the type of items they are selling, that is obvious. and 2. the sellers copy and paste photos and descriptions, sometimes from the manufacturers and sometimes from other sites.  
There is definitely a buyer beware requirement when dealing with eBay, Amazon, and the like.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

Sorry John.  No one said _you_ had to read or respond unkindly to this thread.  I asked for the forum's opinions, and I got some.  Purpose of the thread was satisfied.

I've already moved on, but this thread keeps on going...  Can we kill it?


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> There is definitely a buyer beware requirement when dealing with eBay, Amazon, and the like.


That's for sure!


----------



## Superburban (Mar 2, 2020)

WobblyHand said:


> Sorry John.  No one said _you_ had to read or respond unkindly to this thread.  I asked for the forum's opinions, and I got some.  Purpose of the thread was satisfied.
> 
> I've already moved on, but this thread keeps on going...  Can we kill it?


I think a lot of good points have come up. For me, the end result is buyer beware does not mean much with the chinese sellers on Ebay. What we are used to with established American businessess, also do not matter to Ebay & Amazon sellers. But that still does not solve how we should handle cases like this. I guess the best answer is we should send it back, even if it does take time. That way the seller will loose, and take more responsibility.

Side note, anyone looking at these valves, I suspect they are all NPS, not NPT.









						Female to Male Thread Water Oil Double Seal system Brass Ball Valve 1/8" NPT  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Female to Male Thread Water Oil Double Seal system Brass Ball Valve 1/8" NPT at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


----------



## matthewsx (Mar 2, 2020)

WobblyHand said:


> Sorry John.  No one said _you_ had to read or respond unkindly to this thread.  I asked for the forum's opinions, and I got some.  Purpose of the thread was satisfied.
> 
> I've already moved on, but this thread keeps on going...  Can we kill it?


I apologize if you feel my remarks were unkind, that was not my intention.

I do think that most of us have had this type of situation before, if this is your first time dealing with it then perhaps a lesson learned? This situation is less a "bait & switch" and more of a seller just doesn't know what they have and probably doesn't care. 

I was caught up in a cheap dividing head actual eBay scam a while back that went on for a long time with posts on here. The admins will definitely lock or delete a thread if people start getting nasty but I've rarely seen it here.

Cheers,

John


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Mar 2, 2020)

i have reported Fraud when items have been switched, within a couple days the issue is resolved


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> I apologize if you feel my remarks were unkind, that was not my intention.
> 
> I do think that most of us have had this type of situation before, if this is your first time dealing with it then perhaps a lesson learned? This situation is less a "bait & switch" and more of a seller just doesn't know what they have and probably doesn't care.
> 
> ...


Apology accepted.

For the most part, I've had very few problems with online transactions.  Nonetheless, it is a lesson learned.  I have contacted Ebay and they are responding, as has my bank.  Hopefully this won't take too long to resolve.  I've had 0 issues with AliExpress, and 2 with Ebay.  Go figure.  Both issues with Ebay were with Chinese suppliers.  All of my AliExpress items have gone smoothly, to my surprise.  (I really held my breath for my first order.  But the order came in on time and was an unbeatable price.)


----------



## projectnut (Mar 2, 2020)

I had a similar thing happen a while ago with a protractor like this one:








						0-320° Degree Precision Angle Measuring Finder Ruler Universal Bevel Protractor  | eBay
					

1   Protractor. The zero position of the universal angle ruler is installed on both the angle ruler and the ruler. The scale is engraved by a precision machine. The product is compact, portable and suitable for outdoor operation.



					www.ebay.com
				




When it came it was damaged.  I contacted the seller and the first excuse was "things like that happen when they're shipped all the way from China".  We exchanged a couple emails with each one being a different excuse.  The final one offered a slight discount.  I finally said I'd had enough and if I didn't see a new item within the next 48 hours I would lodge a complaint.  It didn't take more than a couple hours and a new one was on the way.

Just be sure to act quickly there's a limited time to lodge a complaint.  Some dealers try to string you along until the time to make a claim has passed then they just stop communicating.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

@projectnut Sage advice.  I'll keep at it.  If I don't get any action from the vendor in the next day, or so, I'll tell the CC to go forward with fraud mitigation.  Banks are pretty good about clawing back funds, even from big companies like Ebay.  I'll let Ebay deal with the vendor.

I really hope it won't get to that point.  The vendor has asked for some photos of the labels on the package, to see if they made a mistake.  I supplied them.  So far, they have responded.   I'm giving them 2 days.  Then it's time to escalate.


----------



## RJSakowski (Mar 2, 2020)

FWIW, I have been stung myself a number of times.  My philosophy is that if I'm paying a ridiculously low price for an item, I accept the fact that it may just be a flash in the pan.  Personally, I am amazed at what I get for what I pay most of the time.   The few times that I have received an item that did not meet expectations, I just let it go.  

I would charge the experience to learning and keep the end mills.  Now you have a reason to get a mill.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 2, 2020)

I have lots of reasons to get a mill.  Insufficient funds are stopping me.  At least once a week I say to myself, darn, this would be a lot easier if only I had a mill.  RJ, you done good, you are upholding the ideals of this forum - _*Enabler*!  _If I had a ghost of a chance of affording a mill, I'd keep the end mills.  Sad to say, it doesn't look like it for a very long time.

I'm being stubborn persistent about this on principle at this point.  Just following it through, if for no other reason than to stand up for what's right.


----------



## matthewsx (Mar 2, 2020)

I didn't have the cashflow to buy a mill so I decided to build my own. Time will tell if that was a good idea but so far I've enjoyed the learning experience.

Those tiny endmills are usually meant for cheap gantry type cnc mills/engravers that use a router motor to work wood, plastic or other soft materials. The kits are pretty cheap from China

John


----------



## projectnut (Mar 3, 2020)

When I go to eBay looking for something the first thing I do is scroll down the left column and check the box that says "US Only".  I'm sure there are cases where I've paid a few bucks more for the same product that came from China.  The big difference is that by being in this country they have to abide by our laws.  They can't just ignore customers or change their name and continue to do business.

As an FYI the company I bought the protractor from was listed as being in California.  It turned out to be nothing more than a store front for a Chinese company doing business under no less than a dozen names.  Those companies are still listed as vendors, but they are now identified as being in China.


----------



## C-Bag (Mar 3, 2020)

I totally understand and have been there done that WobblyHand but as usual the collective intelligence here nailed it. And theads like this are worth it for the others who might read it. It is really hard to understand the true motivation and situation with these eBay sellers out of China but like has been pointed out look at the stuff in their "store". Clothes, kids toys, applicance etc, etc. They have no clue whether it's a drill bit or a mill or if somebody is just being picky. 

 I fell into that pit when I wanted a Deckel tool grinder clone and it took months to straighten out. Luckily they had two warehouses, one in LA and one in SF where I could physically swap out my grinder because the way the thing was packaged it was going to get damaged if I tried to ship it again. Bottom line they will do anything not to have you leave a bad comment because nobody trusts they will actually get it for that much. We are dealing with a culture that has been bartering for 5,000yrs so it's in their DNA. It seems like going back and forth is just part of the deal where I just want to buy the thing and use it. I learned my lesson big time and as part of my already huge list of things to watch on eBay is the seller and what's in their store.


----------



## Superburban (Mar 3, 2020)

To be fair, I have had the same from US sellers. Do not tell me it works fine, if the batteries are so corroded that they have been dead for many years. If you do not know what it is, or how it works, state that and include lots of pics.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 3, 2020)

I think it's important to note that we are talking about some bad actors, or as someone said, perhaps clueless actors and not a whole country.  Yes, the laws are different, and perhaps not well enforced when it comes to international trade.  Of course, I'd say it's tough to get satisfaction with a seller that's done you _wrong_ in any other country.  Heck, it's not that easy to fix things when it's out of your state.  

As everyone knows, we all have some sort of acceptable cost threshold before we jump into something.  I've been willing to take a risk on occasion to get something for less.  It doesn't always work out, but amazingly, it usually does go well.  I'd say well over 99% of the time.  

I posted this to foster some discussion.  Can't say my situation was unique, but perhaps it offers some insight to others.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 3, 2020)

So far, the seller has offered me a refund of $6, on a $9.18 part.  I accepted with the proviso that I keep the parts, since mailing would cost too much to ship back.  We will see how this goes.  So far, so good.  Who knows, it may all blow up in my face.

On a good note, I just received 10 TCGT21.51-AK carbide inserts from Hong Kong (Ebay) for $9.99 shipped.  Only took 2 weeks. These inserts give a really nice finish on my mini-lathe.  I haven't used up my original set of 10 yet, but I bought these guys just to have them on hand.


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 3, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> I didn't have the cashflow to buy a mill so I decided to build my own. Time will tell if that was a good idea but so far I've enjoyed the learning experience.
> 
> Those tiny endmills are usually meant for cheap gantry type cnc mills/engravers that use a router motor to work wood, plastic or other soft materials. The kits are pretty cheap from China
> 
> John


I'll look into this.  Oh, yeah, another project!  It does look like fun.  Do you have a writeup or thread on this DIY?


----------



## projectnut (Mar 3, 2020)

This thread reminds me of a situation I was in as a young kid.  I was going to school and living with a room mate to minimize expenses.  Our lease on an apartment was about to expire so we started moving out.  There were still a few days left so we weren't in a big hurry.  We took several loads of furniture and household goods to a new apartment and came back for the final cleanup.

Although there was still a little less than a week left on our lease the landlord had already leased the apartment to a new tenant.  If that wasn't bad enough he wanted to charge us a fee for cleanup, and keep our security deposit claiming we had torn the carpet in the hall while moving.

Needless to say we were upset and took him to small claims court.  The case dragged on a couple months, but in the end we won.  The judge ordered the landlord to refund security deposit and drop the cleaning fee.  As we were leaving court the judge pulled us aside and gave us an FYI.  

He said "I wouldn't expect any reimbursement now, or any time in the future".  He further stated that if the landlord resided in the city there was about a 60% chance we would get our money.  If he lived in the county there was a 40% chance.  If he lived in the state there was a 25% chance.  Since both the landlord and the company he owned were from out of state there was less than a 5% chance we would ever get our money. 

I'm still looking in the mail for the check.  Somehow I think that after 50 years it either got lost, or the judges assessment of the situation was correct.


----------



## C-Bag (Mar 3, 2020)

The good thing is the difference is with eBay that your feedback about the seller is all mighty with prospective buyers. Very few want any negative feedback. i wish landlords cared about feedback.


----------



## Superburban (Mar 3, 2020)

When renting, we never expected to get the security deposit back. I was shocked one time when I actually did. I'm sure none of them were holding it in an escrow account like the law stated.


----------



## matthewsx (Mar 3, 2020)

WobblyHand said:


> I'll look into this.  Oh, yeah, another project!  It does look like fun.  Do you have a writeup or thread on this DIY?











						Homemade vertical mill/drill CNC project
					

I'm sure some of you have seen my posts in the general section about this project.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/homemade-vertical-mill-drill.77611/page-3#post-664686  But now that I'm ready to start on the controls I figured it would fit better here (mods please let me know if...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				












						Homemade vertical mill drill
					

Well, I guess I'm gonna try to make myself a mill for cheap.  I found this column on Craigslist for $80.    And I ordered this spindle I can power with a VFD I already have.    And I'm going to get one of these cheap x-y milling tables.    And probably look for a really flat piece of C channel...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				












						Finally in place here in California,
					

My CNC Mill/Drill project made the trip from Michigan to California but I haven't done anything with it since I got here. I finally found an old metal desk to set it onto (I realize now that I should have made provisions for lifting it).   Anyway, I can finally start working on it again. As soon...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## WobblyHand (Mar 5, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Homemade vertical mill/drill CNC project
> 
> 
> I'm sure some of you have seen my posts in the general section about this project.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/homemade-vertical-mill-drill.77611/page-3#post-664686  But now that I'm ready to start on the controls I figured it would fit better here (mods please let me know if...
> ...


Impressive.  Looks like an ambitious and fun project.  

Just received a refund of $6 from Paypal posted to my CC.  And I get to keep the 10 end mills.


----------

