# creative machine funding ideas



## bosephus

i want a milling machine ,no that is wrong i need a milling machine . yep i just have to have one . not a single doubt in my mind i can no longer live without a milling machine. 
but alas i have the same problem so many others here have , i look in my wallet and by george those dollar bills just refuse to multiply on their own . 
or in other words my currant net worth is zero , zilch , nada ... broke . ok so things are not quite that bad , but i do live on a fixed income and while not having those pesky mortgage ,car, and credit card payments allows me to live rather comfortably . my means are still limited and the extra funds i do have are going to be spoken for for quite awhile as i need to buy a car and a few other things in the coming year . 

so how to fund a major purchase ,... give me your ideas .  i am afraid i lack the creativity needed to come up with a viable plan . 

 physical limitations  prevent me from doing the things i'd have done before to earn the cash .. such as getting a job , cutting firewood and such normal things i used to do to fund my addictions . 

 so yea ... ideas good and bad are welcome ... i do have a goal in mind . $2000  ... that should be enough to get me the g0704 size mill i want and enough basic tooling to make some chips . ....


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## Mark in Indiana

A couple of suggestions:

1. Raise the money through a  part time job, overtime at your work, or sell other stuff that you have. NO LOANS!!!
2. Buy a milling machine in a bundle. Sell off the other stuff that you bought in your bundle at a profit. The milling machine is left over, with you, very cheap.

I've done both to finance my "vices". It works.



Happy Trails!


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## bosephus

the part time job idea ... that tough , while i am perfectly capable of working within some limitations  i cant sit or stand for long periods at once , 2 hours at a time is about my limit for either.
unless i plan to spend the next three days laid up . 
an 8 hour day takes me 12-14 hours to accomplish ... not complaining here , its just how it is .

over time would be nice ... if i had an actual job .... i get my income from an annuity , derived from investing a natural gas lease windfall and  20 years of saving while i was working . 

selling stuff ....  gasp .. the horror the horror . .. truthfully though  most of the stuff i have accumulated over the years is stuff i need , i have lead a fairly minimalist lifestyle and never had a ton of the "toys" that most would consider disposable .
this was one of the first ideas to cross my mind , sadly i just dont have stuff to sell that i wouldnt just have to replace at one time or other . and the few toys i do have are irreplaceable to me and selling them just wont happen 

buying a machine in a bundle .. that works great if you have the cash to finance it .... i freely admit to being a poor money manager . my currant nest egg is otherwise spoken for unfortunately . 

i do agree on the no loans or credit cards ... once i finally decided that it was time to stop working the first thing that happened was i cut up the credit cards and haven't looked back .


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## xalky

I'm of the opinion that "where there's a will, there's a way!" If you really want a mill, you'll figure it out. 

The first thing to do is to start looking in places like craigs list or your local "trader" publication. Sure, you can't afford one now, but it amazes me that when I actually start looking at deals, a) it gives me a running knowledge of what it takes to get it, and,  b)it fires up the creative juices in me to figure out how I can manage to acquire one., and c) that deal of a lifetime might just land on your lap.  You aint gonna get it wishing for it, you gotta want it and actively seek it. The means magically appears when all the stars line up. That's been my experience. )


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## Terrywerm

My wife and I have had an agreement for many, many years:  If I quit smoking, I can use what would have been cigarette money for getting my machines and shop set up. 

I quit smoking almost six years ago now. Wanna take a guess as to when I started buying my equipment? It also pays for a nice vacation each year.

I don't know if you smoke or not, and it doesn't matter, I am just pointing out what I did. I figure that I've saved somewhere around $12,000 since I quit and used it for more enjoyable purposes. It doesn't take long for the money to add up at over $7 per pack!


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## higgite

It helps if you have a wife who shares your passion for metal working. For instance, for Christmas I got a new bench lathe for my wife. To be truthful, she really wasn't all that thrilled about it, but I thought it was a pretty good swap. :biggrin:

Tom


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## MarkStephen

You could always try begging - http://www.gofundme.com/ - Just read the fine print and budget in what their take is. I've seen everything from "my tools were stolen, please help" to "I want to go to Disney World" on there. Or you could come up with a project like this guy - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/756791992/the-roller-coaster-project?ref=live - Funded a Taig CNC mill for his scale roller coaster project. If your going this route, be creative and unique in your sales pitch. 

Mark


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## 18w

No easy answers...couple of ideas...do you have cable tv? Get rid of it. Stop at the coffee shop for a latte? Cut back. Every time you get change throw it in a jar.  Watch craigslist or garage sales for something you know you can resell at a profit. I would suggest not paying for your internet as a savings but that is going too far!       :lmao:

Good luck in getting that much needed mill.
Darrell


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## darkzero

I was on the same boat. I only had a lathe & wanted a mill bad. So with the lathe I made gadgets to sell until I was able to fund the mill purchase.


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## outsider347

I hit the weekend garage/estate sales. Takes a little time to know what is easily" flipped". 
Every once in awhile I ll find something that I will keep


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## sk1nner

terrywerm said:
			
		

> I quit smoking almost six years ago now.



Congratulations,  I've never had to fight breaking addictions but those close to me have so I know how hard it is.  Thats great you have been able to stay away!


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## bosephus

i do smoke and wow would it be great if quitting would stick .... lets hope it does one day soon .  but believe it or not smoking isnt a huge expense for me , i rarely buy ready made cigarettes ,  i am a thrifty  person , i roll my own , costs me around $15-20 a month . 
but that adds up if i ever manage to quit . 

 not being a coffee drinker thats out ... but i can easily give up the pepsi cola for awhile ... theres a few bucks a week .
just dont ask me to give up me iced tea anic:

no pay tv here , electric, phone and internet are my only bills .... and theres been many a time i'd like to quit the telephone .

i have seen those crowd funding sites , i am not sure how i feel about that idea , im not against asking for help when i need it ... but is that asking for help or as aptly put "begging" 

darkzero is speaking my language though .... i like the idea of making gadgets and stuff to sell , i like that idea a whole lot . 
i wouldnt mind hearing what kind of things you made , and some good ideas for myself . 

i am not afraid to admit im not a creative person in that regard , i am just not an idea man , slow witted and plodding am i .


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## coolidge

Do you have a clean decent vehicle to drive? If so post an ad on craigslist as a personal driver. Heck its possible there are people who can't drive anymore but still own their vehicle and just need a driver to get them to and fro. That's about the best idea I could come up with for someone who has some physical limitations. I think you could build up a client list of repeat customers in short order.


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## Alspeed

Curious as to why you have set a budget of $2000 when there is zero in the kitty to start with, why not set you're sights a little lower to start off with?

I realise that location can be an issue in the USA when buying machinery, but maybe if you look hard enough there might be a scruffy or unloved mill somewhere close by for scrap money or less.

Even if you initially get a machine that doesn't actually fit your needs, you could do it up, move it on for a profit and buy something that does.

It's surprising what can fall out of the woodwork when you start asking around.

Also I have to say when funds and space were tight, I managed for many years with just a decent lathe, mounting a boring table on the cross slide when I needed to mill something. 

Good luck with you're quest.


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## bosephus

well i can explain that easy enough , it is nothing more then a nice round number , a goal to reach . 
i find that if i do not set a goal when trying to accomplish something things tend to fall off track for me . 
and $2000 would get me a mill and enough basic tooling to get started .
this was how i managed to get my go602 lathe .

i live in the rust belt , finding used machinery is rather easy ... bridgeports abound in my area , i bet there is at least 25 of them on craigslist within 100 miles of me at any given time , and if a person looks finding one rather cheaply is possible . there is one in pittsburg right now for $900 as an example
but i have ruled full size machines out for a pretty common reason ... space , i have the room now but i have other  machines i want to add in the future and it does not take long to run out of room in half of a 2 car garage .

and my kitty is no longer at zero ... i broke out my carhart coat this morning and found $37 in the inside pocket ... woo hooo


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## bosephus

oops i missed coolidge , a nice clean car ... actually i dont .  my ratty old buick died a fiery death a few weeks ago . 
thats part of the reason  i need to fund this in a more ... creative way . 
but the car problem will be solved in a few more weeks , so i dont have any more worries there . 
i also have a few other things happening this year that are going to suck up my extra money ... i have a slate roof that needs a fair bit of repair and the usual home repairs that get put off . 

 so simply put , if i want a mill i have to fund it outside my usual source of income .

i dont expect it to happen over night , if it takes me two years to get like my lathe did .. then by golly i will keep plugging away at it for two years


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## sk1nner

Ive seen alot od people say a full size mill doesnt take up much more space than a table top one.  Think of it like this,  a mill will take a bit of real estate no matter what.    It can be on the floor (full size mill) or on your work bench, but then you have less bench space and need to get another bench (more room and money).


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## jpfabricator

Check to see if you have a plasma and blood donation center near. If your desiese free you might be able to make a few bucks, and help save lives to boot.


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## Mark_f

AMAZING! I was the same way. A year ago, I had no machines and no shop. My health was horrible and I was in a wheel chair. I been a machinist all my life but being on Social Security  didn't let me buy anything cause every penny went to support myself. A friend called and told me about a lathe for $650. I had a loan I was paying on so I added it to the loan for a few bucks more a month. First problem. Now I got a machine and no tooling and no shop. I cleaned out the 8 foot by 8 foot shed for a shop. Now need tooling but no money. Well, I learned years ago, God provides what is needed. Nothing more, and nothing less ( yea, he works that way). 
To make a long story short, I now have a lathe, a mill, a drill press, an air compressor, a band saw, and a mess of tooling which I made 80% of. I also have an 8 foot by 22 foot  shop and it is some what heated.
The moral here. " lf it is  meant to be, it will happen" . If YOU work at it , God will help when he knows you are serious AND there is a purpose.

Many here are familiar with my work. Most don't know me, but know my work. That is my purpose. " To pass on my knowledge and show the less financially blessed, how to have quality tooling cheap , but mostly to pass on the knowledge"

I have noticed, when I stumble and can't go on , something always happens. A few know what is happening now to me, but I keep going because I am not finished yet.

So hang in there, it will happen. )

Mark  Frazier


EDIT: I also, even though my health makes it difficult, unselfishly help a number of people with help they need and cannot do. I also help anonymously with some things and enjoy the wonder on someone's face when their problem is solved and they don't know how or why. This is what makes life worth living and it comes back to you. Maybe not right away,but it comes back to you!


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## Ulma Doctor

Hi Bosephus,

Here's a method that may help you out, take a stab at buying and selling on EBAY.
it will not be the fastest method of accumulating wealth but it is very effective.
start off by taking the $37 you found in your Carharts' and buy something(anything) that you believe you can turn a profit on. 
set the price higher than you want to because there are a couple fees involved with doing business on EBAY.
Sell the intended item, collect proceeds.
Buy 2 items, if possible, with the proceeds and list and sell the 2 items.
Buy 4 items, if possible, with the proceeds and list and sell the 4 items
ad infintium 

i know it sounds simplistic , but have no fear it is effective.

Another idea along the same lines,
Buy items cheap on Craigslist and sell them for profit on EBAY, or Vice-versa

Trading or bartering for stuff is effective too- 
if you buy unwanted but desireable items on CL you can trade for other items that you can in turn, turn into cash or other items to trade or sell to others

With a little discipline and planning, you can fund your very own Machine Shop!!~

good luck-
Let me know how i can help you.

mike)


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## darkzero

bosephus said:


> darkzero is speaking my language though .... i like the idea of making gadgets and stuff to sell , i like that idea a whole lot .
> i wouldnt mind hearing what kind of things you made , and some good ideas for myself .



Here are a few of the things I made to fund my mill & other things. Best to come up with your own ideas if possible as unique & creativity sells better.

Everything is made out of titanium 6Al4V:

Snip....


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## master53yoda

I have funded most of my machine purchase by recycling aluminum and selling the ingots on ebay and internet,  It took a bit to get the bugs out of the system and my background had combustion and electrical so making the furnaces was just a matter of getting the design needs worked out,  I made three furnaces before I got the last titling furnace large enough.  I did a little over $10,000.00 last year.   3700 lbs

This video is of the furnace 
[video=youtube;l1nkH6GmmXk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1nkH6GmmXk&amp;list=UUOn4Bp7FC-n5yHvsXfd_yZg[/video]


this video is of pouring the ingots
[video=youtube;RpMpNUJkwpo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpMpNUJkwpo&amp;list=UUOn4Bp7FC-n5yHvsXfd_yZg&amp;index=3[/video]



This is 220 lbs of ingots    





This is one of the packages that I ship


Art B


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## Ulma Doctor

master53yoda said:


> I have funded most of my machine purchase by recycling aluminum and selling the ingots on ebay and internet,  It took a bit to get the bugs out of the system and my background had combustion and electrical so making the furnaces was just a matter of getting the design needs worked out,  I made three furnaces before I got the last titling furnace large enough.  I did a little over $10,000.00 last year.   3700 lbs
> 
> 
> Art B




That's a mighty fine smelting operation you have there ART!!!
:thumbzup3:


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## master53yoda

I started casting to make tooling for my 109 lathe, and modifiying a drill press to a mill drill fine feed,   selling the ingots got started by accident when i had about 75 lb left over and put them on EBAY.   I sold 250 in the first two weeks, then i had to figure out how to do production and get enough scrap it has just progressed from there.  One of things is being able to fire on Natural gas and keep the cost down.

Art B


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## bosephus

that is one heck of a foundry , my first full time job was shaking sand and grinding in a small foundry . rough work , but i was always disappointed they shut down before i got the chance to learn anything . 

darkzero , that is some neat stuff . kudo's on the very nice work . .... would you mind if i stole the money holder idea and made of for myself , i have a nice little piece of brass that would look spiffy . 



  i did some thinking of my own , why not rethink some of the things i have made for myself ,.. surely if i need one someone else does as well . 

so my first idea came from a dilemma i had with my favorite hobby other than machining of course . reloading for my 577-.450 martini henry .
sizing the cases , a person rarely needs to full length size the cases unless you shoot them from different rifles , and the only neck sizing die you can buy is well over 100 bucks. then you need a reloading press that takes a bigger die to use them . 
so one of my first projects with my lathe was to make a simple neck sizing die to fit my press .. a nice standard 7/8-14 thread 

this afternoon i whipped out a second one ,... took about two hours start to finish . 
i am going to list it on ebay  soon as i decide the best day and time to end an auction on , my thinking is early sunday afternoon 
im open to advice here as i am not a regular ebay user . 

i think $25 is a nice round number to start it at .


i am open to suggestions and sound advice at anytime .

i'll post a pic once my nephew stops by and takes some


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## stupoty

Do you have any hacker spaces or maker spaces near you? I hear america is better provisioned with this sorta stuff.

they can be good places to use and share machines also someone might donate a better mill to them one day and they could give you their one ;-)

lots of them will let you help out in some way to avoid a membership cost or do discount schemes etc.

might be worth a quick web search etc.

Stuart


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## Eddyde

To add to Mike's suggestion of buying and selling on eBay and Craigslist.

Successful selling depends largely on effective ad copywriting, that is, a colorful and accurate description of the item. Also good photos of the item are very important. 
Always be 100% truthful and let the potential buyers be aware of any known defects/problems with the item. That will build your positive feedback as a seller, which is very important in getting people to buy from you.

Craigslist has a free stuff section that can be quite lucrative source of things for resale, depending on where you live.

Hope that helps.


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## chuckorlando

End your ebay adds on Fri night or Sat night. Say 9 or so. Thats pay check spending time. Come sunday everyone is broke. Or do a buy it now and end it when ever


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## compsurge

A G0602 + $37 + a little bit of inspiration... Sounds like you have a good start.

Do you have any metal suppliers near you where you can get some round bar?

Maybe you can list yourself on Craigslist for small jobs with the lathe.

Have you tried making pens? Pens on crowd funding sites are usually a hit if the design is good. Pen collectors are a weird bunch and always looking for a unique model. I love quality, weighty pens, so I always RUN from those before they take my money hew:.

If you have a video camera, you could make a YouTube channel and just make fun things. It takes a lot of work commenting on other channels (and good content) to build an audience of a few thousand followers, but if you are able to build a large audience, ad revenue  could help fund your purchase (you need millions of followers to make a living). Maybe you could focus on how to work around your limitations (fixed income, personal mobility and comfort, etc.).


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## bosephus

i am still waiting on my nephew to show up and take a few good pics for me to list on ebay , but while i wait i'll show you with a few less then good pics of what the neck size die looks like while i wait .

a couple of it being made .






and a finished product


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## mattthemuppet2

that's a lovely bit of machining! Chances are, if you find something useful but too expensive to buy, someone else will too. Make and sell a bunch of them until everyone has one, then move onto the next useful thing.

I sympathise about the machinery desires vs. funding constraints. I'm in a similar position (single income family, medical and dental bills for the kids etc etc) with the added bonus of having to move in a year or two's time, so even if I could afford better machinery, there's no point buying it here and then paying to move it somewhere else. I just make do with my small jewelry style lathe and drill press converted to a "mill". if nothing else, they're excellent teachers on the limits of ones machinery! Something that I do occasionally to help fund tooling purchases is buy a job lot of tools that has something in it that I need, then sell on the things that I don't need or can't use. Not so much to make money, because I haven't , but it reduces the cost of the things I do buy. That and swapping skills/ parts for things you need, which can work really well.

good luck!


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## atwatterkent

After retiring I took some courses in college and finally locked myself into a part time job at the school teaching machine shop classes. My wife and I split my check, 50/50.
She saves her half for vacations and I use mine to buy machines and shop supplies. I always called it my "super secret tool fund" but now she knows about it so I call it my "semi-super secret tool fund" and she has no idea how much I really have. Along the way, I helped myself by buying old lathes, cleaning them up and reselling or parting out depending on wear.


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## Ulma Doctor

bosephus said:


> i am still waiting on my nephew to show up and take a few good pics for me to list on ebay , but while i wait i'll show you with a few less then good pics of what the neck size die looks like while i wait .
> and a finished product




That's a great start Steve!!!!
:thumbzup3:


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## bosephus

why thank you , now that i have a start on it i need to do some head scratching and come up with a few more ideas .
now if i can just find my smart pills to help out 

is it funny that most of the ideas that i have come up with  require a mill :rofl:


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## LEEQ

Mybe the first thing you fund with your earnings is a milling attachment for your lathe) Now you can do some milling until you get the real deal


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## bosephus

a milling attachment is not a bad thought as a temporary stop gap  , i am giving that idea a real good think . 

the real good news is , my simple neck sizing die might just be a winner of an idea . i currently have 7 watchers and a bit over 50 page views . 
it doesn't sound like big numbers , but then this isnt something millions of people want , i have done well with other reloading items in the past with less views and watchers . 

i have also had three inquiries about making the die for specific brass thicknesses and bullet diameters . so  things are looking rather promising . 

fingers crossed watchers turn into bidders , and the inquiries turn into cutomers :nervous:


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## bosephus

lets raise my currant funding level to $68, one of the inquiries paid off   .. a bit over 3% of my goal ... yipppy


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## compsurge

Exponential growth!


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## MarkStephen

Congrats! It's all down hill from here. (let's just hope that ain't a cliff)

Mark


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## bosephus

well well well ,  having a great day today towards the mill fund .

a fella from finland hit the buy it now button on the die auction , so after ebay and pay pall fee's i can add another , $24.65 to my fund 
and a member here decided to buy my large tool holders , adding another $25 to my growing fund ,... bringing me up to the grand sum of ....

$118.65 ,.. woo hooo   at this rate i can see me owning a mill quite a bit sooner then expected . :thumbsup2:


i am off to relist another die , and my girl friend is cooking me italian sausage for dinner ,.. thanks for the help and support gentleman


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## compsurge

Hmm... I need to take some entrepreneurial inspiration from this thread.

That's great news. About four times as much as you started with last week!


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## JeepsAndGuns

If you have any other skills, put them to use to make some extra money. I am a mechanic, so I use that to my advantage. There is a local junkyard called pull a part. They have really cheap prices on parts. You have to pull them yourself, but thats half the fun. I got like 3 or 4 transmissions from there, rebuilt them, and then sold them on craigslist for a profit. Also, if you know auto parts, then there are parts you can buy there cheap, then turn right around and double your money online (forums or ebay) just cause it saves people from having to go to the JY and get it themselfs. They like being able to click a mouse and buy the part they need. 
I am a small engine tech also, so I have bought several used lawn mowers from people who couldnt afford to, or didnt want to fix them. I buy them, fix them, and sell them. 

Took me about 2-3 years of this but I saved up enough to buy my smithy with cash.


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## bosephus

let chalk up another $32 to my slowly growing machine fund ( $150.65)  , a fella contacted me threw my ebay lisyng and asked me to make a case forming die for the 577-.450 , a nice simple job , pretty much just a 7/16 hole with a bit of a chamfer  in a threaded rod .


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## mce5802

Have you considered the Gingery mill? All of his machines are designed to be a low cost way of building your own machine shop. Its no bridgeport but it's surprising what can be made on it.   I'm sure others on here could suggest improvements to the design if you did choose to go that route (power feed, etc). And down the road you could maybe sell it if it didn't meet your needs. If I wouldn't have found the old k&t I probably would've went that route, at least til I could afford a better one. Somethin to think about.


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## compsurge

This thread is really inspiring.

Keep it up! :thumbzup3:


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## Ulma Doctor

Great work STEVE!!!!!
i knew you could do it!!!!
:rubbinghands:


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## xalky

_I absolutely love it! It's amazing what a few ideas and a pep talk can do._)


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## bosephus

thank you fella's .... i can envision a milling machine in my shop already .  

i have an auction for a die ending tonight lets hope that goes well , and i think i am going to go ahead and list another neck size fie , along with one of the case forming dies i made , might speed things up a bit if there is a few guys out there who might be interested in one of them as well . 

 i also had an idea inspired by my new vetterli rifle , a nice simple drill guide/drill bushing for those who want to convert their rifles to centerfire and do not have a lathe to make it easy , it'll be cheap at around $10  and wont take but 15 minutes to make . 

a few more ideas and it wont be long untill i have to open up my own store anic:


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## compsurge

I'm starting to think we might have a small business in its infancy! Any chance you'd link us to your auction? I don't do reloading or know anyone who does, but I'd be interested to see what you come up with in the future!


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## bosephus

lets not start talking small business , thats just crazy talk :whiteflag:


but really , once i fund my mill and basic tooling i dont look to do much of any for profit projects . 
no need to turn a hobby into work . i do have a thousand projects of my own in mind , i think with care and enough time i can wear my little g0602 and a mill out with my own projects . 

i dont have a problem linking my ebay listings so you can check them out if you like , but i would like to get permission from a mod before i do. 
i would not want any complaints that i was advertising my wares on the site for free .


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## Pat of TN

This is inspiring to me, and I'd like to eventually do something along the same route...

Question... what is the liability involved with such a venture? Making something, selling it on eBay for a profit, making money off of it - is this stuff that factors in to one's taxes? With such an asinine tax system as we have in the U.S., it's a hard pill to swallow.


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## John Hasler

Pat of TN said:


> This is inspiring to me, and I'd like to eventually do something along the same route...
> 
> Question... what is the liability involved with such a venture? Making something, selling it on eBay for a profit, making money off of it - is this stuff that factors in to one's taxes? With such an asinine tax system as we have in the U.S., it's a hard pill to swallow.



Yes, of course the profits are taxable income.  No big deal.  You just report it and make your payments.  It only gets hairy if you have employees.


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## JimDawson

John Hasler said:


> Yes, of course the profits are taxable income.  No big deal.  You just report it and make your payments.  It only gets hairy if you have employees.



John is absolutely correct that profits are taxable, but to put that in perspective let me show a very simplistic example.

Lets say you make a widget that has $1 in materials, and sell it for $2. That is a $1 gross profit.  Now lets say you use that money to buy a new tool for your business for $1, you get to subtract that from you gross profit, so your net profit is $0, thus no taxes are owed on that money you made to buy that tool.  The bottom line is that you an equip a shop, over time, without paying any taxes on the money you made to buy those tools.

The US tax code is actually pretty good to small business unless you have employees.  There is a reason I have not had employees for 35 years, 40 years ago I had employees, never again.  Running a small business doing something that you love......, well it just doesn't get any better than that.


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## bosephus

hmm taxes ,.... not much of a worry there , as mr dawson points out that wont be a problem for me , i dont plan on having any profit after buying a machine and some tooling . 

 on a lighter note ,... after fee's and shipping lets chalk up another $31 to my fund , $181 and some change now , with three more auctions going up tonight . 

i am going to try a 5 day auction ending on sunday evening this time , just to test and see what days actually do the best to end an auction on


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## bosephus

woo hoo ... i just went past the 10% mark , thanks to the buy it now button lets chalk up another $29and change after fee's bringing me up to $211 and change.

it was the case forming die that sold ,less then 24 hours listed and three views .i am not sure what to think about that , but it must be good .
off to the shop i go to light a fire and turn another one out .


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## Dranreb

I'm hooked on this thread, I reckon it'll be entertaining and inspiring us for quite some time.......

Bernard


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## bosephus

well , well , well ... another buy it now hit on my intermediate case forming die ,  after fee's that brings me up to $233 and some spare change . 

this is a bit unexpected , both of these that  i listed sold with the buy it now in less then 24 hours .. no complaints here , just a bit surprising . 
i think i could use some advise from a more experienced ebay  seller here . 

 ok , i have a fairly low starting bid to attract bidders , and my buy it now price is set at what is a comfortable profit margin considering the time it takes to make and what my material costs will be once i use up the stock i have on hand .

would i be better off to list one without a buy it now just to gauge what the actual interest is in these and to see what the market will bear , or keep the buy it now and let people use it to their hearts content .

i am pretty sure there is going to be a finite market for these ... my quandary is how finite is it going to be ... is it going to be 10 dies or 1000 ,.. neither of the two stayed up long enough to see . 
and i'd really hate to get greedy and drive potential bidders away


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## pebbleworm

My favorite example of creative funding comes from the early 20th Century.  Dr. Martin Couney was an MD who was just interested in keeping premature babies alive.  It was and is an interesting field but there was no funding available for it at the time.  No insurance, and with large families most would just mourn briefly and move on.  But he thought it was just too fascinating a field to ignore.  His solution was to put his neonatal intensive care unit at Coney Island.  And charge admission.  It worked- he had repeat customers coming in to watch the progress of "their" babies, and most of the babies survived with no charge to their families.  He went on to open clinics with a glassed in viewing area whenever there was a worlds fair  or other big, long term fair.  Preemies arrive all the time and he would take care of them, and charge admission cover his costs.  Not directly related to machine tools, but think outside the box and get things done! Here are a couple of links for anyone interested:
http://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/201310/3734/
http://io9.com/5885939/babies-in-incubators-were-once-an-attraction-at-coney-island


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## Pat of TN

JimDawson said:


> John is absolutely correct that profits are taxable, but to put that in perspective let me show a very simplistic example.
> 
> Lets say you make a widget that has $1 in materials, and sell it for $2. That is a $1 gross profit.  Now lets say you use that money to buy a new tool for your business for $1, you get to subtract that from you gross profit, so your net profit is $0, thus no taxes are owed on that money you made to buy that tool.  The bottom line is that you an equip a shop, over time, without paying any taxes on the money you made to buy those tools.
> 
> The US tax code is actually pretty good to small business unless you have employees.  There is a reason I have not had employees for 35 years, 40 years ago I had employees, never again.  Running a small business doing something that you love......, well it just doesn't get any better than that.



Hmm, I see... now that is interesting! Would one have to be "officially" a business - thus paying for SS taxes and Medicare and such for the sole employee...? Hmm... I suppose I should research this on my own, but... that is a fantastic thing indeed. Sell $1000 worth of stuff, and every time you save up some profit - purchase something of the same or greater amount for that - material, tooling, machines... hah. With no visit from Mr. Tax Man...


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## master53yoda

bosephus said:


> well , well , well ... another buy it now hit on my intermediate case forming die ,  after fee's that brings me up to $233 and some spare change .
> 
> this is a bit unexpected , both of these that  i listed sold with the buy it now in less then 24 hours .. no complaints here , just a bit surprising .
> i think i could use some advise from a more experienced ebay  seller here .
> 
> ok , i have a fairly low starting bid to attract bidders , and my buy it now price is set at what is a comfortable profit margin considering the time it takes to make and what my material costs will be once i use up the stock i have on hand .
> 
> would i be better off to list one without a buy it now just to gauge what the actual interest is in these and to see what the market will bear , or keep the buy it now and let people use it to their hearts content .
> 
> i am pretty sure there is going to be a finite market for these ... my quandary is how finite is it going to be ... is it going to be 10 dies or 1000 ,.. neither of the two stayed up long enough to see .
> and i'd really hate to get greedy and drive potential bidders away




when I first started i was to low for the market.   if you are selling out on a Buy it Now in 24 hrs your priced to low.  raise your price about 20% FOR THE bUY IT Now and take offers, it will let you find out what the market will pay. Keep doing this untill your getting enough offers to average out the price and then set the Buy it Now at that level.    You will find that if you don't do something like that the demand will outrun your ability to meet it.   EBAY is a huge market, and you can't meet its total needs.


The IRS will let you run at a loss for 3 years and then you must make a profit,   I  show a profit  between 5 and  10% of sales. The rest gets used in tooling, fuel for the truck, part of the truck payments etc.

Good luck

Art B


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## John Hasler

Pat of TN said:


> Hmm, I see... now that is interesting! Would one have to be "officially" a business - thus paying for SS taxes and Medicare and such for the sole employee...?



As owner of an unincorporated business you are not an employee.  You would have to pay self-employment tax but you would not have to deal withholding (though you might need to make estimated payments if you did well).  



> ? Hmm... I suppose I should research this on my own, but... that is a  fantastic thing indeed. Sell $1000 worth of stuff, and every time you  save up some profit - purchase something of the same or greater amount  for that - material, tooling, machines... hah. With no visit from Mr.  Tax Man...



Sorry.  It's not that easy.


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## compsurge

Pat of TN said:


> Hmm, I see... now that is interesting! Would one have to be "officially" a business - thus paying for SS taxes and Medicare and such for the sole employee...? Hmm... I suppose I should research this on my own, but... that is a fantastic thing indeed. Sell $1000 worth of stuff, and every time you save up some profit - purchase something of the same or greater amount for that - material, tooling, machines... hah. With no visit from Mr. Tax Man...



Look at the rules for sole proprietor in your state. You may not have to form a business entity to operate and can use the standard 1040 form to file your income. There are additional forms for state sales tax and others I'm sure. Your EIN (Employer Identification Number) will likely be your SSN. There are certain reasons why you would want to form a business entity and incorporate, but these would be based on your income level and the taxation that occurs. As always: always verify with the IRS laws or tax lawyer for how to operate the small business and report taxes.


@bosephus, any consideration on selling the plans for your dies? I don't know if that will net any more earnings, but selling PDFs can be a lot cheaper than machining metal!


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## JimDawson

Pat of TN said:


> Hmm, I see... now that is interesting! Would one have to be "officially" a business - thus paying for SS taxes and Medicare and such for the sole employee...? Hmm... I suppose I should research this on my own, but... that is a fantastic thing indeed. Sell $1000 worth of stuff, and every time you save up some profit - purchase something of the same or greater amount for that - material, tooling, machines... hah. With no visit from Mr. Tax Man...




As a sole proprietor or a single member LLC, filing as a sole proprietor you would only pay SS and Medicare on the profits.  I think you can expense out up to $125K for tools and equipment in a given year under the current law, I have never gotten close enough to that number to worry about it.

Now if you take that same $1 that I used in the example above and go buy a cheese burger off the dollar menu at McDonald's, then you have to pay taxes on it.

EDIT:  I agree with John above, it's not quite that simple, but not too bad.  Every year I buy TurboTax Home and Business and let that figure it out.


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## bosephus

master53yoda 

that makes sense , and i am going to take your advice . 

compsurge 

 i almost hate to admit this , but both die's are so embarrassingly simple i'd be ashamed of myself for even thinking about selling a pdf mechanical drawing . 
well not so much on my little neck sizing die ,.. with it i am just amazed i can not find where anyone else has made the same thing . 
and it really is not a perfect solution , more of an adequate work around for a reloader to avoid having to spend a fairly substantial amount of money on a set of actual  factory made reloading dies and possibly a new press that will accept the larger then standard dies . 

i made mine because i just could not wrap my cheapskate head around paying anywhere from $100-$300 for a set of dies 

the intermediate case forming die on the other hand i cant take any credit for , plenty of guys before me have made the exact same die .
and it is not absolutely necessary to have , it just makes life a bit easier and faster to make the cases with a standerd full length size die . 
buying actual case forming dies for the 577-.450 is god awfully expensive ... rcbs form dies are well over $500 and are an oddball size as well


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## Smithdoor

Do more with less
I found I did not need a big shop just think out side the box was lower in cost use very old tools work just as good new
Yes I have had new lathes and mills must later and found I wish I had the old back. No payments and low over head there will be lean times

Dave


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## bosephus

good news on the funding front ,  chalk up another $ 42 after fee's for a neck sizing die . if my memory serves that should put me around $275 .
 i have decided to stop and take deep breath for a week and listen to some sound advice from master53yoda .and re-adjust my marketing strategies a bit . 
i am also going to expand into the wide world of gunbroker ... the fee's are a bit less  and i  have an account already .  


 i am also learning a bit of a lesson on how easy a hobby can snowball into a small business quite quickly . so far about half of the people who have bought my die's have contacted me asking about other things they would like to have made , things are looking quite good . 
if things keep moving forward like it looks they will , it is almost going to be a shame to shut it down once i fund my mill


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## bosephus

on vacation and the requests keep rolling in ... follow up requests from some that have bought my dies have trickled in ,... once i get back home and can spend a day or so working i'll be able to add another $260 odd dollars to my machine fund . 


is it to soon for a happy dance


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## bosephus

back home .. and way to soon at that .

but anyhoo i just spent a few hours taking care emailing and confirming all of my currant requests  for dies i can see i am going to be a busy guy for the next couple days. 
i also had to make a material order from enco for drill rod .. holy carp it disappears  quickly . 

i also rethought my pricing  .. and raised them just a wee bit i didnt have a single compliant so i do think i was working to cheaply . 
now i should have a happy meduim hopefully .. customers still get good value for their hard earned bucks and i make enough to be very happy .. win win 

once everyone pays up and i deduct my material order from enco i should be at around 25% of my $2000 goal ... not to shabby 
my ebay and gunbroker listings should resume end of the week once materials show up .


thanks for all the support and encouragement


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## Ulma Doctor

great work Steve, glad to hear of the success!!!!
don't be afraid to charge for your expertise.
you are providing a good that is in demand and produced by very few.
it puts you in a good position.

don't forget Ebay will take their money from your sales.
 make sure you cover your expenses and get paid for doing the work.
excellent work!!!
:man:


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## master53yoda

on the cost of doing business side of things that Ulma Doc brought up, i use a spread sheet to track my costs,  any tooling, including the lathes etc. is included.    My EBay and PayPal cost is 13% of the total, shipping is 10 to 15% of the total.  In my case i have fuel costs and upkeep on the furnaces that I add in.  They all come into play at tax time but they also are a direct cost against your profit.   When i was working i used a labor rate based on what overtime pay would have been for my time,  don't forget to ad another 20% to your actual time to cover chasing materials etc.  and finally if you are not working on a precash basis you need to add another 5 to 10% for collecting money time.    Add all this up add your profit and then you really know what you should be charging for what you are doing.   It appears to me that you may be charging to little for what you are selling based on the demand.    Take a look at what a normal Die would cost from a manufacturer and then you should be selling it for 150 to 200% of that price, because you a are providing an item that isn't available any where else, it is called a niche market.   

 "DON'T PROVIDE ANYONE YOUR DRAWINGS UNLESS THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY WHAT TEN SETS OF DIES WOULD SELL FOR."

 That may sound like a hard line but... in my case if I had your drawings I could make those dies at about 35% or your costs with my sons CNC lathe and make 100 of them and flood the market at 1/2 your cost and then I would control the market.  Don't think that someone wouldn't do it.   

I'm glade to see you moving forward

Art B


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## bosephus

master53yoda 

how can i argue with your logic , fact is you are still correct i have taken very little of what you mention into any real consideration . 
but lucky for me my tooling costs are negligible .  i do have the ebay and paypal fee's factored in , but not things like the heat , luckily that is cheap as i burn wood i dont have to buy .. but i ignore the little it does cost because i use the firewood purely as exercise that i dearly need . 
the electric ... well lets just say for the time being its free until the power company decides to replace the meter like they was supposed to 3 years ago when i paid for the new meter . 

but even if we ignore all of that you are right ... i am still working to cheap . i cant argue or justify my way around that . 
but , once i take all of my out of pocket expenses off the top i am happy with what i am making here . 

i get the benefit of both being able to fund my mill and i get to help keep a few more old antique obsolete rifles shooting , that actually pleases me more then the money . 

as to my drawings ... well you managed to hit on a subject that does concern me , my only hope here is that i make my little chunk of money before someone with a cnc does this to me .
if it happens before .. eh chalk it up to win some lose some


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## compsurge

bosephus said:


> master53yoda
> 
> as to my drawings ... well you managed to hit on a subject that does concern me , my only hope here is that i make my little chunk of money before someone with a cnc does this to me .
> if it happens before .. eh chalk it up to win some lose some



An alternative approach is to take your drawings to a CNC shop and have them make you [x-quantity] and then sell these dies at a fair market price.


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## bosephus

another little update 

some very good news ,..  while i have not approached my over all goal yet i have managed to very nearly fund the mill itself . 
i am close enough now that i am giving some very careful consideration to calling precision mathews and putting a down payment on a mill to be sure of getting one from the the next batch due in .
things went along quite a bit faster then i expected . 

some might not see this as good news , but i have gotten past the initial rush of selling die's as fast as i can list them , things have reached a nice steady even keel .
and that works out much much better for me .. i will still meet my goal in a reasonable time frame , and it no longer feels like actual work .  

over all this has been a learning experience for sure and a positive one at that ... although for a few weeks there it was feeling an awful lot like a job instead of a hobby . 
but im past that now ....  and yippppy im getting a mill


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## Ulma Doctor

nice to hear of your success!!!
i would agree with master53yoda about not giving the prints out!
that's your hard work- don't give it out for free!


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## xalky

bosephus said:


> another little update
> 
> some very good news ,..  while i have not approached my over all goal yet i have managed to very nearly fund the mill itself .
> i am close enough now that i am giving some very careful consideration to calling precision mathews and putting a down payment on a mill to be sure of getting one from the the next batch due in .
> things went along quite a bit faster then i expected .
> 
> some might not see this as good news , but i have gotten past the initial rush of selling die's as fast as i can list them , things have reached a nice steady even keel .
> and that works out much much better for me .. i will still meet my goal in a reasonable time frame , and it no longer feels like actual work .
> 
> over all this has been a learning experience for sure and a positive one at that ... although for a few weeks there it was feeling an awful lot like a job instead of a hobby .
> but im past that now ....  and yippppy im getting a mill


 Great news. That didn't take very long at all. Thats what happens when we focus on the solution rather than focusing on the problem. I love it! Go back and read your first couple of posts in this thread just so you can see the transformation in your attitude over the past few months. It'll be an eye opener! Congrats!


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## bosephus

xalky 

it wont be much of an eye opener, lol , i surely was in a bit of a funk .  this project has helped in more ways then just funding me a milling machine . 
it has helped my entire attitude . 

my attitude has sucked for the last couple years , the worst part is i know why it has been bad but i was to busy being lost in negativity to wack my self in the head and do something about it.

at around my 40th birthday i had to make a hard decision to stop working at an actual job due to some health concerns , this was a pretty hard blow to take after 22 odd years of bouncing around heavy equipment and being a productive member of society. i am afraid my ego did not like facing the prospect of what to me looked like facing the next 30 plus years of being a useless lump . 

this has done quite a bit to drag me out of that bad spot ... and i do feel i owe everyone here a large thank you for the support and encouragement , i doubt i would have gotten anywhere without it  .

so thank you everyone


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## Ulma Doctor

your success is what we want, i'll speak for everyone by saying you are welcome-glad we could help!!


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## 18w

This has been pretty cool. Going from down in the dumps in Dec. to being in a position to order your mill in March. Now you get to feel the sense of anticipation and the excitement of getting that new mill. Now that you have the formula to succeed I can't wait to see what you come up with next. That mill will always need more tooling and now you have some ideas that will allow you to afford it. I love it when a plan comes together!

Regards
Darrell


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## David S

bosephus your experience here is heart warming.  Not only is this site a friendly place for all of us to receive and share machining experiences, but now it seems that due to the friendly interactions here you have found new strength to find ways to be productive again..and above all feel good about yourself.  I am proud to be a member and wish you nothing but all the best.

David


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## bosephus

well guys i think i have come to a conclusion . 

in the matter of two weeks or less i will have met my goal ...  so a big yippy for that . 

i have been holding off till the last minute on calling pricision mathews  and getting in on the expected order of the pm25 machines 
just in case something shows up local ... i am in the rust belt after all , used bridgeports and clones are plentiful . so something might very well show up in my price range .
in the end though i see a shiny new pm25 in my garage .  

and having met my goal i also have funds enough to buy a vice and a few other things i will need to start making chips .   
so its time to put some thought into that now as well . 

now as to my little die making endeavor . 

 the employee's here at the shop have been grumbling ..  murmurs and rumors of an impending strike over long hours and a looming spring shooting season abound.
tempers are flaring , certain corporate secretaries have been hiding death threats and dynamite in my lunch pail 
the postman has been sneering at me in a discomforting way , i suspect that is due to his increased work load from all of these small flat rate boxes .


maybe things are not quite that bad , but its soon coming to a time when i pull down the shingle , close the blinds , lock the doors  and hang up the out to lunch sign . 
turning this into an actual business is not for me , i do not say this lightly . i have put a lot of thought into this over the last few weeks and quite simply it is not what i want to do.

 the long and short of it is , i want this to be something i enjoy .. a hobby .  i want to wear my tools out from making things not money .
and if i continue on with this endeavor  i fear it will change from something i enjoy  to...... work   . 
and that is where i draw the line ,  i enjoy the hobby to much to let it turn into work . 

 now that i have very nearly met my goal i do not have a need to do it anymore ,but  i'll be danged if it isnt hard to put the brakes on something once it has started .
there is a little voice in the back of my head telling me i am wrong for coasting to a stop


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## Pat of TN

Look at it this way - if you ever need to do it again, you know you've done it once already. I think you've given a lot of us here at HM inspiration with this thread.


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