# Shop Fox-Just another China brand or?



## visenfile (Feb 1, 2015)

Newbie here continues to review offerings online.  Shop Fox has a "gunsmith" 12x36 and a 13 x 40 on sale with free shipping.  Anything special or just rebadged? Ads say 2 year warranty, but I don't see who you contact in case.  Thanks for comments.


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## CluelessNewB (Feb 1, 2015)

Yup just another label on tools from China.  The M1112 12x36 is basically the same as the Grizzly G4003G.  You may find some minor differences and I'm not sure if either has an advantage are far as fit and finish.


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## Starlight Tools (Feb 1, 2015)

Shop Fox is one of Shiraz Balolia's brands.  Shiraz is the owner of Grizzly.

He has the Grizzly line-up, the South Bend line up and the Shop Fox line up.

The Shop Fox line is marketed through his Wholesale distribution branch to dealers, where-as the Grizzly line up is sold through his stores.

The basic difference between Shop Fox and Grizzly is similar to the difference between a Dodge and a Plymouth, paint and trim.

Walter


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## visenfile (Feb 2, 2015)

_Thanks.  It kind of looked that way.  So it does seem like what I read somewhere.  The Chinese lathes come into the US with a little envelope full of suggested brand names and the distributor picks one he likes.  Just like the wild west.  The forum seems sensitive to asian brands other than ones they choose to feature. I wish if this is so to state it .  But for buyers it would be nice to hear about warranty, support and parts availability from the "other" distributors who are mostly selling the same lathes with different logos. Thoughts?_


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## JimDawson (Feb 2, 2015)

visenfile said:


> _Thanks.  It kind of looked that way.  So it does seem like what I read somewhere.  The Chinese lathes come into the US with a little envelope full of suggested brand names and the distributor picks one he likes.  Just like the wild west.  *The forum seems sensitive to asian brands other than ones they choose to feature. I wish if this is so to state it .*  But for buyers it would be nice to hear about warranty, support and parts availability from the "other" distributors who are mostly selling the same lathes with different logos. Thoughts?_




There is no favoritism among brands and there are no featured brands on The Hobby-Machinist.  The Hobby-Machinist is an educational forum, not a sales tool.  The content of this forum is generated by the membership.  Many members have strong opinions on brands and are encouraged to state facts regarding machines and vendors that they have had experience with, both good and bad.  Personal opinions may also be expressed, but they should be stated as such.


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## darkzero (Feb 2, 2015)

visenfile said:


> _So it does seem like what I read somewhere.  The Chinese lathes come into the US with a little envelope full of suggested brand names and the distributor picks one he likes._



Actually it's not like that. Generally distributors use their own brand names & go to the CM to see what options they have to offer. The distributor contracts the CM to produce the machines to their needs (name tag, features, colors, quality/price).





visenfile said:


> _The forum  seems sensitive to asian brands other than ones they choose to feature._



Just curious, what makes you think this? From the time I have been here I have never felt this forum to be this way. There are actually vendors/brands that are disliked that have their own sections here. It's impossible to accommodate all the current brands out there & the ones to come. The most popular ones (by forum discussions) eventually get a section. Look at how many brand specific sections we have here, we have more than any other machining forum. Not necessarily always a good thing but it certainly shows there no discrimination against brands here.

Shopfox currently isn't discussed much here and if the time comes when Shopfox should get a section, I have no douibt it would just be combined with the Grizzly section. That does not mean the Shopfox brand is not welcome here, everything is welcome, Asian or not.


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## darkzero (Feb 2, 2015)

Starlight Tools said:


> Shop Fox is one of Shiraz Balolia's brands.  Shiraz is the owner of Grizzly.
> 
> He has the Grizzly line-up, the South Bend line up and the Shop Fox line up.
> 
> ...



Do you know anything about Busy Bee/Craftex? I hear that the co is not necessarily related to the Grizzly co but the owner is somehow related to Shiraz? No idea on the truth in that, just curious is all.


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## 18w (Feb 2, 2015)

Starlight Tools said:


> Shop Fox is one of Shiraz Balolia's brands.  Shiraz is the owner of Grizzly.
> 
> He has the Grizzly line-up, the South Bend line up and the Shop Fox line up.
> 
> ...



Walter is correct. About 8 years ago I was in the market for some woodworking machines. As is usual when I am looking for tools there was not a lot available used locally. I compared all the new machines as to price vs. quality. What I ended up buying were some Shop Fox machines. There is a local dealer and they bring in the machines, uncrate and assemble. They have a tech who goes over the machines and adjusts them and they are ready to plug and play. At the time the Shop Fox machines were slightly more expensive but because I bought several my cost was the same as if I had bought them from Grizzly and I saved shipping costs and assembly hassles. I have had no real problems with them and they have served me well. The local dealer is a woodworking store and they have no knowledge of metal working equipment. If I were in the market for a lathe or mill I would look in other directions though but that is just me and my needs and wants are different than many hobbyists starting out.

Regards
Darrell


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## Starlight Tools (Feb 2, 2015)

darkzero said:


> Do you know anything about Busy Bee/Craftex? I hear that the co is not necessarily related to the Grizzly co but the owner is somehow related to Shiraz? No idea on the truth in that, just curious is all.



http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/31507-Busy-Bee-Tools-Canada

See here where I discussed the relationship that Shiraz has to BB!

Shiraz started BB in Canada but left due to a dispute over Quality Control issues with one of his brothers.  His other brother left around 1990 and started his own company in Burnaby, BC, then opened a location in Mississauga, but closed down due to health problems.

Walter


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## Starlight Tools (Feb 2, 2015)

visenfile said:


> _Thanks. It kind of looked that way. So it does seem like what I read somewhere. The Chinese lathes come into the US with a little envelope full of suggested brand names and the distributor picks one he likes. Just like the wild west. The forum seems sensitive to asian brands other than ones they choose to feature. I wish if this is so to state it . But for buyers it would be nice to hear about warranty, support and parts availability from the "other" distributors who are mostly selling the same lathes with different logos. Thoughts?_



visenfile

I have never seen any sensitivity on this forum to Asian brands. There are forums on the internet that you can get banned for mentioning Atlas / Craftsman or Asian lathes, but not this one.

When I was importing machinery, we would go to Taiwan, (that was before China was a player, but they are the same way) and you would ask them how much for a particular tool, such as a drill press. They would reply that you could get them for $100.00 USD each if you bought 50 pieces. As a purchaser if you said to them, well, I want to only spend $90.00 USD each, they would say OK, and build them for you at that price, but guaranteed, they would cut corners to get to that price and the final product showed it. If on the other hand you offer them $110.00 USD each, then you would get a tool that had much better fit and finish, and overall would be a much better quality.

We would go into a factory and they would price based on the casting that you used. You could get the same drill press casting for fifty cents a pound, $1.00 a pound, $2.50 a pound and up to $5.00 a pound. The fifty cent castings were 90 % bondo, where as the $5.00 castings were as good or better than US made castings.

Yes there are companies that import machine tools from the orient that go for the cheapest price possible and their reputation reflects that. Then there are other companies that import machines, often from the same manufacturer that pay attention to the details, have their own quality control process and deliver a much better grade of tool, at a higher price, but then you get what you pay for.

Personally, when I upgraded my metal lathe about 5 years ago, I went with a Taiwanese machine that was distributed by a machine tool company here in Canada that deals primarily with industry. They will not accept the lower end products form the suppliers and are willing to pay the extra for the better grades, knowing that their clients are also willing to pay the extra, or they would deal with the companies that have the reputation of being "not even good enough for the weekend warrior".

This company had a Chinese lathe in its offering that was the same size, but you could tell that it was an entry level machine, even with it being built the the tighter specs that this supplier demanded. The Taiwanese lathe was over twice as much money, it was at least three times the machine. Better fit and finish, better grades of castings, and the electrics were a much better quality.

I am glad I went with the lathe I did. I had wanted an older US made machine, such as a 14" swing Logan, but they were not to be found in this neighbourhood, and I had at the time been tempted to hold out for the South Bend that Shiraz was just starting to produce as it had some nice features, like constant velocity, forced oil lubrication, etc, but it was about 1000 lbs heavier than the Gosan I choose and was still not released, and there was no firm date as to when it would be released, while the Gosan was sitting on the suppliers floor in Calgary ready to ship!

Generally if you deal with a distributor that deals with industry, you will get a better quality machine and have better after sales support, but you will pay a higher price for the machine. If you deal with a distributer that deals with the home hobbiest, then you will get the machines that are made to a price point, and service follows suit with the lower cost machine.

I had a service manager of a firm state outright, that the machine that they sold was not designed to be used industrially, and questioned why anyone would bother buying it if they were even semi-serious about having one. Not a good advertisement for that brand. LOL

Walter


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## Starlight Tools (Feb 3, 2015)

Another point about Quality Control in these factories.  

These factories make tools branded for many different companies.  The parts are often made in smaller sub factories, or more correctly huts where a batch of a single component is made, then shipped to an assembly factory.

The parts are supposed to be checked for accuracy before the tools get assembled.

My boss was in Taiwan one time and witnessed this.  A batch of drill presses was being made for a major department store chain, and my boss arrived just as they started change over, to a different brand, Delta.  This company had about a dozen engineers that lived in Taiwan and oversaw the Quality Control.   They went through the different parts checking them for accuracy and on a few occasions they found parts that were flawed or undersized enough that they were beyond the + specs that were stated.  So these parts were wheeled off the assembly line and a new batch brought in.  These parts were checked and yup, they were within tolerance, so the assembly run was started.

When the assembly run for Delta was finished, the parts that had previously been wheeled off the line, magically re-appeared on the line and the next clients batch was started.

Just because the parts were rejected by one company as not withon tolerance, does not mean that they will be destroyed, just that they will be used for other clients that do not have the Quality Control checks in place or for those clients that wanted a "cheaper" price.

Walter


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## HMF (Feb 3, 2015)

*Let me clarify. On this forum, we don't care what machine you own. That policy was created by me, and it has remained the same - always.
Good work is produced on ALL types of lathes.  You know the saying, "a poor worker blames the tools". I believe it. 
When I see the fabulous work, and the skill behind it, that we have on here, the machine becomes less significant. It's the SKILL that matters.
No one has ever been banned or complimented for the machine they own on here. It's always the work that counts.

Not only is there no "sensitivity", but I have never bent over backwards to get advertisers for any machine. 
We are lucky- we don't need advertisers because we are not-for-profit. We can get donations that cover us. We have advertisers to supplement this.
We have refused to kiss ass of some advertisers to get them here.  That includes LMS, who put us through a wringer to try to get them to advertise. Screw them.
It includes Charter Oak Automation, whose ads I rejected because of what I saw as poor quality to one of our members, switching motors and other components.
I threw their rep off the forum because of this. I won't accept bait and switch tactics from any advertiser. Don't have to. 
Grizzly will never advertise here. Their owner wants to dictate what is discussed about his products on a forum and to have his ass kissed. No thanks. 
Sensitivity? I don't think so. If anything, this is the most inclusive mid-sized forum for machining on the internet.

I think this issue has now run its course, so I am asking that we please discuss machining, which is why we are all here. Thanks.
*


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## visenfile (Feb 3, 2015)

Well, thanks to all who shared the dynamics of Chinese sourcing and US business distribution.  I seemed to have hit a nerve in this excellent forum.   Sometimes a noob (outsider) simply sees something that appears to be one way, but is perhaps not.  Anyway, now that the goundrules are clear I hope others who go to "the find, " for instance and have first hand experience with companies such as Baleigh,  Shop Fox, Northern Tool, and others will relate their experiences like those who relate experiences with other companies/brands in this forum. In such a way the tool enthusiast might be attracted to or repelled from a particulat source.


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## SteveM (Feb 3, 2015)

I'm a newby, less than 4 years. I began with a 6 inch Craftsman lathe, then an 8.5 x 14, a Shen Wai 12 x 36 (great project ), and an almost new 12 x 36 Shop Fox. Prior to acquiring the lathe I purchased their 9 x 49 mill with 2 axis DRO. I have nothing to compare them to but for my purposes and skill level they've been great.


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## Rbeckett (Feb 4, 2015)

I started out a few years ago on a very tight budget.  And I bought what I could afford, which was Harbor Freights offering in the mini lathe line up and their 3 in 1 machine the venerable 5980.  Both of those machines required a good deal of tweaking and fine tuning to get to do any real projects, but they served a valuable purpose teaching me how to deal with those kinds of issues.  I have progressed a good bit in the intervening years but still have and use both of my original machines.  It was never the quality of the machines, it was always a question of my ability to translate what I wanted versus what the machine was capable of.  99 times out of 100 the machine has been capable of producing better results that I achieved due to my lack of skill and technique.   I continue to be on a super tight disability budget and also continue to learn all the while eyeing newer and better gear.  Eventually I will find the limits of what I have, but for now those machines serve  me well and enable me to learn how to do the things that must be done to achieve the quality I am looking for.   So would I buy another Tiawanese or Chinese machine, in a word, YES.  Because they are affordable and continue to improve their quality control and have been coming through with excellent fit and finish every time I look.  So do not hesitate to buy Asian, German precision started the same way and look at what they make and the prices they charge now.  It is just a matter of time before Asian machine tools follow suit and do the same.   Just my .02, but I hope this helps get just one more person interested in learning this dyeing art before it is too late and all the masters are gone...  And India isn't too far behind, just give them both a little time...

Bob


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 4, 2015)

There are only two reasons why a machine would not be discussed on this Forum. #1 No member owns that particular machine and #2 most if they have no experience with a certain machine refrain from speaking about something they don't know about. All machinery is welcomed here. We do not discriminate here, that is for other sites.

There is one concept that seems to be misunderstood when it comes to machinery. That concept is the machine/operator concept. It is the operator of the machine that makes the machine look proficient, not the other way round.

 "Billy G"


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## Bamban (Feb 4, 2015)

May I add about Chinese manufacturing?

I may not be the best qualified person to talk about Chinese manufacturing, but certainly I have more experience in country than most. I was an Expat with a semiconductor company for 4 years in Tianjin, a city Southeast of Beijing, in fact it is the port city for Beijing. 

From construction to start up I ran the project management group that integrated and managed the program and schedule from material acquisition to the first product out. I had the opportunity to see first hand how construction mercenaries brought in by Bechtel, our construction company, from all over the world work with the indigenous workers with sub par skills. Along with the hook up company we hired from London, these foreigners had to learn how to integrate the local crafts people into the project. We were greenfield operation for there were not even a single semiconductor certified high purity welder to be had. In the entire Beijing area there was one air ride truck, and we did not want to have for as available basis, that necessitated the requirement for logistics and rigging company from Japan to ship one over.

Within our operation and engineering groups we hired and trained a couple of hundreds of Chinese engineers, trained in the US that is. These engineers were selected from the finest engineering schools in China. And I can tell you I can put these graduates against any of the US, EU, and other Asian grads. I've dealt with these engineers from different countries while running world wide projects for the company.

I have to paint the picture of the work landscape for you guys to appreciate the complexity of the cultural diversity of the workforce all trying to accomplish the aggressive goal to produce the first product in 18 months that includes finish the construction of over half a million square foot manufacturing space.

The Chinese are no different from any workers I've encountered. Human condition is such we all want to do a good job regardless of our role in the hierarchy. Our labor crew lived on the property in temporary housing we built for them and their families and they don't mind working the long hours. Our construction management and 3rd party QA/QC are all foreigners. What we learned and re-learned is that initially the quality is dependent when the construction managers are present. It's not because the local workers are slackers, but because they don't know any better. Example if you ask any US carpenter to erect a wall it will be flat and square. Their Chinese counterpart did not understand why it is unacceptable to have a wall that you see the seams and not straight. That was the biggest challenge during the construction. Can't assume quality, training is paramount, and expectations must be clearly spelled out. Mentoring from the expat leaders to the next local leaders was driven hard for seamless succession.

On the process and equipment engineering side, our expat engineers shadowed and mentored the next leaders and the manufacturing did the same thing. The quality system was introduced and everyone was trained.

What is the punch line of all these? With the Chinese running the machines our first silicon came out on the day we advertised on the released schedule. Our yield exceeded the mature yield from the US operation we transferred the product from and matched the mature yield of our foundry in Taiwan.

Can the Chinese manufacture with the best of them? Yes, but they need to be trained how and why. Just remember just a little over 40 year as ago they were taken to the dark ages where their leadership was seeking the utopic aggrarian nation.

Just my unsolicited input, mods delete if you must.


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