# Cartridge Calibration Press



## dcsims (Mar 17, 2018)

I have not seen cases sized like that before. Most auto cases like 380, 9MM and 45 all have tapered cases which set the seating depth in the barrel of the gun.  if the taper is too large the bolt will not close but if the taper is too small the firing pin will not strike the primer and the gun will not fire. Is that a bullet sizing die that you are using? I use them to size the bullet or projectile after molding them in a split cavity mold.

Dennis


----------



## TPinheiro (Mar 17, 2018)

dcsims said:


> I have not seen cases sized like that before. Most auto cases like 380, 9MM and 45 all have tapered cases which set the seating depth in the barrel of the gun.  if the taper is too large the bolt will not close but if the taper is too small the firing pin will not strike the primer and the gun will not fire. Is that a bullet sizing die that you are using? I use them to size the bullet or projectile after molding them in a split cavity mold.
> 
> Dennis



Hello
the cartridges have a useful life of about 30 to 40 shots, but every 5 shots pass in this machine to return the original measurement accurately; In the recharge machines the cartridge enters and leaves the DIE and a small portion is left uncalibrated, so this unique machine was developed to calibrate the cartridges in full; I already made 8 machines of this type. has oxidized black parts and the rods are high strength chrome.

I hope I have pleased

Thanks for comment


----------



## dcsims (Mar 17, 2018)

I have been reloading for 45 years and have loaded 50 to 60 thousand rounds but just never seen a headless case resized full length. This is something new to me. So are you just resizing the space just above the grove at the head that does not go into the resizing die when it is reloaded?

Dennis


----------



## higgite (Mar 18, 2018)

FWIW, if you're using Lee or Redding push through dies, they also work on standard reloading presses. What calibers do you load?

Tom


----------



## magicniner (Mar 18, 2018)

Full length resizing is a standard procedure that's supported by the big reloading manufacturers presses, could you explain what's different? 
Is it that the full length of the solid plug at the cartridge base is forced through the die rather than just part of it and if so what is the advantage of that? 
Thanks, 
Nick


----------



## Tozguy (Mar 18, 2018)

Nice work, nice press. I understand the operation and the need to 'recalibrate' a case. Your way is quicker than mine. But in one video the case is resized neck down and the other video it is resized neck up, just wondering if it gives the same result both ways.


----------



## dcsims (Mar 18, 2018)

Tom,

I use an Hornady Ammo Factory which is a fully automatic press with Auto Case, Primer, Power and Bullet feed. The point I am making is the case on headless ammo is tapered from the head to the bullet end. The dies I use are full length sizing dies that size to that specified taper.

I am trying to understand how a passthrough die can maintain that taper. Are you sizing to the upper end of the taper to take out any head swell in the case?

I know that if I don't maintain that taper the case will either seat too high in the barrel and not chamber or too low and the firing pin will not strike the primer. I  use a Reddiing Go No-Go gage to check see that the taper is correct and that the loaded bullet will chamber correctly.

I am firing in Kimber Custom pistols. 

I load 380, 9MM Lugar, 40 cal and 45ACP plus al lot of others which are either straight cases with a head like 357 mag and a lots of bottle neck rifle sizes.

Dennis


----------



## magicniner (Mar 18, 2018)

I've just watched the videos, I made a bullet sizing push rod for my Lee press, a variation of which could be used to locate and push a case fully through a die, fairly quick and very easy to make on a lathe too.


----------



## Tozguy (Mar 18, 2018)

As far as I know, rimless cartridge cases either headspace on a shoulder or on the case neck mouth. Since there is no shoulder on the case in the video it would seem to be a cartridge that headspaces on the neck mouth. So the critical dimension is case length and not the taper.
The body taper on the case is for ease of chambering and extraction. The taper should not be relied upon for headspacing.

The operation shown in the video is probably to reduce the bulge that develops just above the case head after several firings. This bulge does not always get resized completely in a full length die. If left as is that bulge might interfere with smooth chambering and extraction.


----------



## TPinheiro (Mar 18, 2018)

Hello

Good afternoon everyone !

In the attached photos the 2 ways of calibrating the cartridge are shown.


In mode 1 photo the cartridge is marked at the point where it has to be calibrated to return to the original measurement, this point is not calibrated in the recharging machines.


These ammunitions are used in IPSC competitions and need to be perfect because any minor detail will fail the gun.

I prefer to calibrate in mode 1 because the option is lighter and causes less fatigue because sometimes has 500 to 700 cartridges to calibrate and if working in mode 2 becomes too heavy.

Each cartridge needs 500 to 700 kg to enter the calibrator then working in mode 1 the operator makes a force between 12 and 17 kg at the maximum, this considering the extreme cases of well dilated cartridges.

As I said before, I have already made 8 identical machines with small differences in finish; everyone who bought me informed me that they liked the machine and it became very useful because they ended the feedback faults in the pistols during the IPSC competitions.

I'm developing a new design for other .38spl / .357 and 38 super gauges; This calibrates the cartridge does not pass, has to enter and exit.

Still in the project

My thanks to all the comments, all the ideas and issues are important to me.

Thank you !

Can ask the will


----------



## magicniner (Mar 18, 2018)

I've checked the word "Calibrate" in several dictionaries and does seem inappropriate for this application. 

I believe what you're trying to do is "Blueprint" the cases, i.e. bring them to their optimum design specification. 

Blueprinting is something that can be done in a standard Lee press with a couple of inexpensively made parts. .


----------



## Tozguy (Mar 18, 2018)

TPinheiro said:


> I prefer to calibrate in mode 1 because the option is lighter and causes less fatigue because sometimes has 500 to 700 cartridges to calibrate and if working in mode 2 becomes too heavy.
> 
> Each cartridge needs 500 to 700 kg to enter the calibrator then working in mode 1 the operator makes a force between 12 and 17 kg at the maximum, this considering the extreme cases of well dilated cartridges.
> 
> ...



What about lubrication? I know it can be messy but that sounds like an awful lot of effort. Also, do you end up getting any scratches on the cases and have to clean the die?

Hope that you will show us your new design too.


----------



## TPinheiro (Mar 18, 2018)

dcsims said:


> I have been reloading for 45 years and have loaded 50 to 60 thousand rounds but just never seen a headless case resized full length. This is something new to me. So are you just resizing the space just above the grove at the head that does not go into the resizing die when it is reloaded?
> 
> Dennis



Hello

Yes, just the point with the cartridge that is marked on the photo of mode 1.

This part causes feedback failure in the IPSC guns, then completely passing through the DIE the diameter returns to the original measurement.


----------



## magicniner (Mar 18, 2018)

TPinheiro said:


> In mode 1 photo the cartridge is marked at the point where it has to be calibrated to return to the original measurement, this point is not calibrated in the recharging machines.



I reload .38Spl, .357Mag and .45ACP and your terminology doesn't make any sense.


----------



## TPinheiro (Mar 18, 2018)

magicniner said:


> Full length resizing is a standard procedure that's supported by the big reloading manufacturers presses, could you explain what's different?
> Is it that the full length of the solid plug at the cartridge base is forced through the die rather than just part of it and if so what is the advantage of that?
> Thanks,
> Nick



The advantage is that the IPSC guns are all customized and with the springs relieved then the cartridge measurements need to be equal to the original, can not scratch spandid; on recharging machines the part marked on the photo cartridge of mode 1 is uncalibrated and causes feedback faults in the gun.

Whoever bought this machine solved this problem

I was happy for that!


----------



## TPinheiro (Mar 18, 2018)

Tozguy said:


> Nice work, nice press. I understand the operation and the need to 'recalibrate' a case. Your way is quicker than mine. But in one video the case is resized neck down and the other video it is resized neck up, just wondering if it gives the same result both ways.



Hello

Yes it has the same result but mode 1 lighter the operation causing less fatigue, because there are days that have many cartridges.

There are some people who use mode 2, but I do not see why.


----------



## magicniner (Mar 18, 2018)

TPinheiro said:


> The advantage is that the IPSC guns are all customized and with the springs relieved then the cartridge measurements need to be equal to the original, can not scratch spandid!



I beg your soup spoon?


----------



## TPinheiro (Mar 18, 2018)

Tozguy said:


> What about lubrication? I know it can be messy but that sounds like an awful lot of effort. Also, do you end up getting any scratches on the cases and have to clean the die?
> 
> Hope that you will show us your new design too.



The cartridges should be clean, you can pass a small amount of WD40 spray, so the operation is perfect


----------



## Tozguy (Mar 18, 2018)

dcsims said:


> I have been reloading for 45 years and have loaded 50 to 60 thousand rounds but just never seen a headless case resized full length. This is something new to me. So are you just resizing the space just above the grove at the head that does not go into the resizing die when it is reloaded?
> Dennis



You must mean rimless case, where do you put the primer in a headless case?



magicniner said:


> I reload .38Spl, .357Mag and .45ACP and your terminology doesn't make any sense.





magicniner said:


> I beg your soup spoon?



Different terminology maybe but don't you get the drift? Wish that I could write Portugese as well as TPinheiro writes english.


----------



## higgite (Mar 18, 2018)

dcsims said:


> Tom,
> 
> I use an Hornady Ammo Factory which is a fully automatic press with Auto Case, Primer, Power and Bullet feed. The point I am making is the case on headless ammo is tapered from the head to the bullet end. The dies I use are full length sizing dies that size to that specified taper.
> 
> ...



Dennis, 

.380ACP, .40S&W and.45ACP are all straight walled cartridges. Lee sells push through “bulge buster” kits for those and a few more straight walled calibers. They work with the appropriate caliber Lee Carbide FCD (sold separately, as the saying goes). The 9mm Luger i_s_ a tapered cartridge, which doesn’t make sense to me for a push through die, but there is a guy on Youtube that uses a 9mm Makarov FCD to push 9mm Luger rounds through. He claims it works, but I can’t say one way or the other. I haven’t seen the need for a push through die myself, but none of my pistols have match chambers nor do I shoot in competition.

I will say the OP’s machine looks hell for stout with lots of leverage to do the job.

Tom


----------



## dcsims (Mar 18, 2018)

Tom,

I most of my experience is with 9MM Luger which is tapered and for my guns super critical on the proper taper to chamber properly. I have loaded over 20,000. I agree that the 9MM doesn't make sense for the bulge buster because you would only be sizing the larger end of the case which is the head of the case. 45ACP only has a .003 taper which I would agree is close to a straight walled case. Not as critical on getting the taper correct. I have loaded between 5000 and 6000 of them and have only been shooting them over the past two years. I started reloading 45 years ago with the Lee Hand Loader but graduated soon to a turret press and later to an progressive auto press and have not kept up with Lee's offerings other than their cast bullet pass through sizing die's. Lee does make some of the best reloading dies on the market. I like Hornady and RCBS and use them most of the time.

My main question was how this could work on a tapered case and seemed to start a small war. I will take a look at the Lee " Bulge Buster" on their website to get the details.

Thanks,
Dennis


----------



## higgite (Mar 19, 2018)

Dennis,

My apologies, you are correct about .380 and .45 ACP being tapered cartridges, although .45’s taper is only .003” and .380’s taper is a miniscule .0009” on SAAMI drawings, they are in fact tapered as you said. I’ve always heard them referred to as having straight walled cases. I’m obviously running with the wrong crowd.  I guess only 9mm is tapered enough to be a problem for push through resizing. In any case, thanks for the education. Just when I thought I couldn't get any smarter...... wrong again. 

Tom


----------



## Tozguy (Mar 19, 2018)

Not at war with anyone here, just an enthusiast of reloading for many many moons now.
I believe the term straight walled cartridges is a general term used to separate them from bottlenecked cartridges. Both groups of cartridges need to have a slight taper in the body (some are more pronounced) for ease of feeding, chambering and extraction.

Note that the bulge in question here is larger than the big end of the body taper. The way SAAMI specs are made for ammo and chambers, any factory cartridge has to fit in any factory chamber so tolerances are relatively generous. Sometimes the clearance between cartridge and chamber is enough that the body of the case blows out on firing beyond the elastic limit of the brass creating a bulge just above the case head. The head is normally hardened and does not expand unless it receives excessive pressure. Normally this bulge is of no concern when the case is going back into the same chamber. However, after several firings the bulge can be big enough and stiff enough to eventually interfere with smooth chambering. I don't know of any caliber, straight walled or bottlenecked, that is exempt from this potential problem.

Ideally resizing dies should be custom made for the results required so that one die will resize the whole case for a given chamber in one stroke with a minimum of working on the brass. Eventually the brass does work harden from repeated firing and resizing. This work hardened brass does not resize as usual. This situation becomes more critical when faced with the tighter tolerances applied to competitive equipment.

Annealing the brass is one popular solution. But the annealing process which softens the brass back to its original level (hopefully) should only be done at or near the neck. The head end of the case including the bulge must remain hard. The die will then resize the softened brass near the neck properly but the bulge near the head will remain.

A slightly smaller die than the usual full length die must be used to reduce the bulge. The bulge being the widest part (larger diameter) of the whole rimless case, a 'bulge busting' die will squeeze the bulge but will clear the other parts of the case so a push through die is a logical choice for 'calibrating' large quantities. 

My experience in bulge busting has been with bottlenecked cases and small base dies. These dies are smaller than the standard f.l. die and squeeze the bulge down to tolerable dimensions. They are not push through dies but they could be if I had the set up for it.


----------

