# Well I've gathered stuff to practice scraping.



## expressline99 (Mar 15, 2017)

Well today I went around town and gathered some simple supplies to scrape... Prussian blue (at Napa), a decent file & handle from Home Depot to convert to a scraper, a rubber roller from a craft store. 

I've got a small surface plate that I'm sure is out of cert if it ever was in. But it's free and was given to me from a job site where it was being a door stop for who knows how long... at least the working surface was face up! 

The item to be worked on is an milling table for a drill press. It's missing the vise so the top is just an open dovetail. But that part is mounted on another dovetail that is complete with a gib. It's small and looks like it was just rough milled into the condition its in now. It's cast iron.  End value of it being just an item to practice on. 

I've been reading tons...watching all the videos.  Reading the machine restoration book as recommended. 

Should be fun....Doing this while I wait for parts on the Bridgeport full head rebuild. 

Paul


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## Bob Korves (Mar 15, 2017)

Paul, come on down and we will get a scraping session going, and get a couple others to come join in as well, perhaps talk Ulma Doctor into being the resident guru to keep us on the straight and narrow...  Working with others helps one to see the different techniques that will work and gives a chance to talk about what we are doing and why it works for us.  Also gives you a chance to try out different tools and techniques.  None of us are by any means pros, just aficionados...


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## expressline99 (Mar 15, 2017)

Bob, I really need to make it over there.  Gotta work on wife for next month. I need something for her and the two kids to do over there while I'm visiting.


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## 4GSR (Mar 20, 2017)

Before doing any scraping, get one of the guys check your "free" surface plate against theirs.  If you don't, you could be chasing your tail on tyring to get something flat or even determining if something is flat.  Both these guys would be a great mentor for you!  Ken


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## Bob Korves (Mar 20, 2017)

Paul, we could rub your surface plate against one of ours, which have recently been professionally calibrated by Precision Granite to AA and certified to A grade.  If they match, great.  If not, "Man with one watch knows what time it is..."  None of  us have an autocollimator, or a repeat-o-meter, or anything similar to actually calibrate them.

edit:  Sacramento Zoo is a fun place to go, also the great railroad museum in Old Sac.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 20, 2017)

Paul, we can also show you the Canode water based inks.  They are a LOT less messy than Prussian blue, which does work fine.


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## ghostdncr (Mar 20, 2017)

You have somewhat screwed yourself, Paul. Soon, everything you own that slides will need "attention."


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## Bob Korves (Mar 20, 2017)

ghostdncr said:


> You have somewhat screwed yourself, Paul. Soon, everything you own that slides will need "attention."


A machinist can never have too many "projects" waiting...


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## expressline99 (Mar 20, 2017)

ghostdncr said:


> You have somewhat screwed yourself, Paul. Soon, everything you own that slides will need "attention."


Isn't that the truth. LOL


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## expressline99 (Mar 20, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Paul, we could rub your surface plate against one of ours, which have recently been professionally calibrated by Precision Granite to AA and certified to A grade.  If they match, great.  If not, "Man with one watch knows what time it is..."  None of  us have an autocollimator, or a repeat-o-meter, or anything similar to actually calibrate them.
> 
> edit:  Sacramento Zoo is a fun place to go, also the great railroad museum in Old Sac.



Honestly I might be embarrassed to allow anyone to see this granite block. I have no idea where it's been other than it was found being a door stop at a house where I guy used to make knives. He was no longer around to explain... There are no identifying marks on it..it's a black granite?  If it got close to other nicer plates it might upset them.


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## expressline99 (Mar 20, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Before doing any scraping, get one of the guys check your "free" surface plate against theirs.  If you don't, you could be chasing your tail on tyring to get something flat or even determining if something is flat.  Both these guys would be a great mentor for you!  Ken



I need all the help I can get with learning!


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## expressline99 (Mar 20, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Paul, we can also show you the Canode water based inks.  They are a LOT less messy than Prussian blue, which does work fine.


I should have done a multi-quote but anyhow. This is new to me all around. This blue is certainly messy. I just assumed that was part of the bit of doing this.
Paul


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## ghostdncr (Mar 20, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> Honestly I might be embarrassed to allow anyone to see this granite block. I have no idea where it's been other than it was found being a door stop at a house where I guy used to make knives. He was no longer around to explain... There are no identifying marks on it..it's a black granite?  If it got close to other nicer plates it might upset them.



Have you got anything you know to be relatively flat of some considerable size? If you do, put a thin skim of that Prussian blue on it and gently float it over that surface plate. Hardly NIST stuff, but under a strong backlight it will suggest what you're dealing with.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 21, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> Honestly I might be embarrassed to allow anyone to see this granite block. I have no idea where it's been other than it was found being a door stop at a house where I guy used to make knives. He was no longer around to explain... There are no identifying marks on it..it's a black granite?  If it got close to other nicer plates it might upset them.


Surface plates have nothing to do with beauty contests.  They just need to be flat, damned flat!  Eyeballs are worthless at checking them.  A single test is worth a lot of opinions...  Bring it on!  We can also put it on top of one of our calibrated surface plates and chase a tenths indicator around the top surface, then turn it over and check the other side.  If done a few times on different parts of my plate, and we get the same results, I think you could keep the results in mind while you use it until you can get it calibrated properly or replaced.


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## expressline99 (Mar 21, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Surface plates have nothing to do with beauty contests.  They just need to be flat, damned flat!  Eyeballs are worthless at checking them.  A single test is worth a lot of opinions...  Bring it on!  We can also put it on top of one of our calibrated surface plates and chase a tenths indicator around the top surface, then turn it over and check the other side.  If done a few times on different parts of my plate, and we get the same results, I think you could keep the results in mind while you use it until you can get it calibrated properly or replaced.



Oddly the bottom side of the thing is rough cut and even has a big saw mark and is unfinished. I think it can certainly be looked at by you guys. It's portable enough. If nothing else I can be told it needs to go back to holding a door. Either way there would be a result and that's a start.


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## expressline99 (Mar 21, 2017)

ghostdncr said:


> Have you got anything you know to be relatively flat of some considerable size? If you do, put a thin skim of that Prussian blue on it and gently float it over that surface plate. Hardly NIST stuff, but under a strong backlight it will suggest what you're dealing with.



I honestly don't have anything else even close to flat. It would at least tell me if there was a huge dip through the center.


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## 4GSR (Mar 21, 2017)

A nice Sandvik carbide scraper blade can make that rock (door stop) flat again in no time if its found to be out of spec.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 21, 2017)

I totally blew off the fact that the bottom of surface plates are rough cut, and useless for anything beyond holding up the top surface.  Still, we can level the top surface with shims underneath and then indicate the top to look for dish or crown or other issues.  What size is the plate?  A lot of checking parts and comparing stuff is done with small plates like a comparator uses.  I wish I  had one...

Edit:  Maybe we could put Ulma Doctor's .00005" (that is 50 millionths) DTI to work...


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## ghostdncr (Mar 21, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> I honestly don't have anything else even close to flat. It would at least tell me if there was a huge dip through the center.



A good piece of plate glass would give you an idea of what you're working with. No clue what kind of tolerances modern glass is made to, but it's pretty flat. I used to have a 1/2" thick piece that I'd lay on a cast iron surface plate to serve as a backing plate for a sheet of wet or dry sandpaper. Real handy for cosmetic flattening and producing that matte swirled finish on material prior to engraving. Just a thought...


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## Bob Korves (Mar 21, 2017)

Plate glass is ground and polished and it is pretty flat, but certainly not calibrated surface plate flat, it is not designed or made for that purpose.  Float glass, less so, but not really bad.  Same with granite counter tops.  Ordinary window glass, you can see the ripples in it...


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## expressline99 (Mar 21, 2017)

4gsr said:


> A nice Sandvik carbide scraper blade can make that rock (door stop) flat again in no time if its found to be out of spec.



I was looking at this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272308140880


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## 4GSR (Mar 21, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> I was looking at this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272308140880


Boy! They have gone up in price since I bought mine!


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 21, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> I was looking at this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272308140880


Very nice scraper!
maybe you could construct one too if you had the desire and braze a pre-sharpened blade insert to it, or create a blade lock similar to the Sandvik or the Anderson and use inserts as intended 
then you need to be able to sharpen carbide.
... and then the rabbit hole has been entered.....


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## 4GSR (Mar 21, 2017)

Ulma Doctor said:


> ......
> ... and then the rabbit hole has been entered.....


And it's a deeeeep hole at that, too!

Next will be a scraped cast iron straight edges.  Not just one, at least three of them in lengths up to 48"
Like Mike mentioned a carbide grinder.  Not just a grinder, it's actually a lapper with the correct blade.
And almost have to have, a Biax power scraper with the tool pouch.  And the list goes on and on...
Did I mentioned a planer?


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## expressline99 (Mar 21, 2017)

Ulma Doctor said:


> Very nice scraper!
> maybe you could construct one too if you had the desire and braze a pre-sharpened blade insert to it, or create a blade lock similar to the Sandvik or the Anderson and use inserts as intended
> then you need to be able to sharpen carbide.
> ... and then the rabbit hole has been entered.....



Well I have an acetylene setup so I could probably figure out how to do that. I need a rosebud for it though. But there are several tips laying around. It's got a victor 100 head/mixer/handle?

A blade lock... that would be an interesting quick project. I need some simple ones to do with the mill once it's back together. Can I sharpen carbide with a green grinding wheel? I have one of those around I've never mounted....I think I bought it for messing with bronze.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 21, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> I was looking at this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272308140880


Paul, the second 20 in the part number is the width, in millimeters.  That is slightly over 3/4" wide.  That size would be good for finish scraping and for smaller work and large dovetails.  For general work on larger surfaces, a 25mm or 1" width would probably be more generally useful.  I have a pack of new 30mm Sandvik carbide scraper blades and you are welcome to one when you come visit.  It is not difficult to make a scraping tool, and there are several common designs that you might copy to build yourself to fit you and your preferences.  The 30 mm blade can be left as it is, or ground down to whatever size you desire.  The Sandvik tools are nice, but are pretty cheap and easy to copy.


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## expressline99 (Mar 21, 2017)

4gsr said:


> And it's a deeeeep hole at that, too!
> 
> Next will be a scraped cast iron straight edges.  Not just one, at least three of them in lengths up to 48"
> Like Mike mentioned a carbide grinder.  Not just a grinder, it's actually a lapper with the correct blade.
> ...



Well I'm in process of getting those straight edges going already.  I guess I have to look up what a carbide grinder is... The Biax scraper I'm already slobbering over and have been since I saw the first video that showed one! 

Now on the planer thing....I've actually look for one of those. All I can find are very large machines! I was thinking a metal shaper until I figured out they made planers. Then then the size changed because I'd have to have a planer or a shaper with at least 24" probably 36" travel... those are a bit big for my garage.  But I've yet to see a planer that was small or even medium sized. 

oooh the excitement!


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## Bob Korves (Mar 21, 2017)

Yes, a green wheel will grind carbide, but it will need to be honed to finish it sharp and true.  I know a fellow near here who has a small planer, from the 1800's, that is hand operated.  It is tiny...  He also has at least 5 more planers, up to BIG, a couple are from the 1860's, in beautiful original condition, and a lot of other really cool stuff!


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## expressline99 (Mar 21, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> I totally blew off the fact that the bottom of surface plates are rough cut, and useless for anything beyond holding up the top surface.  Still, we can level the top surface with shims underneath and then indicate the top to look for dish or crown or other issues.  What size is the plate?  A lot of checking parts and comparing stuff is done with small plates like a comparator uses.  I wish I  had one...
> 
> Edit:  Maybe we could put Ulma Doctor's .00005" (that is 50 millionths) DTI to work...



OK the size of the plate is: 12x9 3" thick.













12x9x3 top



__ expressline99
__ Mar 21, 2017


















12x9x3



__ expressline99
__ Mar 21, 2017








Bob Korves said:


> Paul, the second 20 in the part number is the width, in millimeters.  That is slightly over 3/4" wide.  That size would be good for finish scraping and for smaller work and large dovetails.  For general work on larger surfaces, a 25mm or 1" width would probably be more generally useful.  I have a pack of new 30mm Sandvik carbide scraper blades and you are welcome to one when you come visit.  It is not difficult to make a scraping tool, and there are several common designs that you might copy to build yourself to fit you and your preferences.  The 30 mm blade can be left as it is, or ground down to whatever size you desire.  The Sandvik tools are nice, but are pretty cheap and easy to copy.



Seems like making one might be the way to go? The plan is to scrape in my compound, cross slide and bed of my logan once I get going on it.


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## expressline99 (Mar 21, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Yes, a green wheel will grind carbide, but it will need to be honed to finish it sharp and true.  I know a fellow near here who has a small planer, from the 1800's, that is hand operated.  It is tiny...  He also has at least 5 more planers, up to BIG, a couple are from the 1860's, in beautiful original condition, and a lot of other really cool stuff!



I think I would pass out if I got to see all that in person.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 21, 2017)

A perfectly good hand scraper can be made without any welding equipment and without any machinery at all, just hand tools.  Your surface plate looks good from here, though it is hard to check it for millionths flatness by looking at the pics...


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## Bob Korves (Mar 21, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> I think I would pass out if I got to see all that in person.


I got an incredible tour from him, thanked him profusely, and then asked if some of my friends might be able to get a group tour.  He declined, sadly...


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## Bob Korves (Mar 22, 2017)

I have a shop made knockoff of one like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-AND...706052?hash=item33cabcd904:g:8hcAAOSw4YdYzmsY


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## Bob Korves (Mar 22, 2017)

This would be a good one, it is in the UK, price seems OK:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SANDVIK-COR...860050?hash=item4b13ddf352:g:mo0AAOSw4CFYzPmh


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## expressline99 (Mar 22, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> This would be a good one, it is in the UK, price seems OK:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SANDVIK-COR...860050?hash=item4b13ddf352:g:mo0AAOSw4CFYzPmh




If you think that's the way to go I'll try to get it. I see now there isn't a buy it now button.


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## Dabbler (Mar 22, 2017)

if you decide to 'scrap'  those Logan parts I can use them for other projects!


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## expressline99 (Mar 22, 2017)

Dabbler said:


> if you decide to 'scrap'  those Logan parts I can use them for other projects!


lol Ooops. I will be scraping them. (I edited that out....don't want people to get the wrong idea!)


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## expressline99 (Mar 22, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Yes, a green wheel will grind carbide, but it will need to be honed to finish it sharp and true.  I know a fellow near here who has a small planer, from the 1800's, that is hand operated.  It is tiny...  He also has at least 5 more planers, up to BIG, a couple are from the 1860's, in beautiful original condition, and a lot of other really cool stuff!



I gotta wonder if that's my future self... Am I living in the woods with a big shop then? 

Also, is it a bad sign when I caught myself trying to see if my mouse is hinging at about 30%? 

Paul


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## 4GSR (Mar 22, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> I think I would pass out if I got to see all that in person.


Na, you won't. Just drool more!


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## Bob Korves (Mar 22, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> If you think that's the way to go I'll try to get it. I see now there isn't a buy it now button.


It's your money...  I would try to get a bit of exposure to the sport first.  Let's work up a scraping day, come and visit, and try out a few different scrapers on some victims...  Nobody wants to buy a car without taking it, or one like it, for a test drive.  Length and width matter, so does flexibility.  Some people use different techniques that require different handles.  Sure, you can make most anything work, but something that feels comfortable, helps with accuracy, and makes you happy will go a long way toward making scraping enjoyable.


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## expressline99 (Mar 22, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> It's your money...  I would try to get a bit of exposure to the sport first.  Let's work up a scraping day, come and visit, and try out a few different scrapers on some victims...  Nobody wants to buy a car without taking it, or one like it, for a test drive.  Length and width matter, so does flexibility.  Some people use different techniques that require different handles.  Sure, you can make most anything work, but something that feels comfortable, helps with accuracy, and makes you happy will go a long way toward making scraping enjoyable.



Great idea. I'll put the brakes on until I can get some time in with different tools. It seems to me at least in my mind that I want one that has some spring to it.

Paul


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## expressline99 (Mar 25, 2017)

I was using my Logan again today and there is a hinging motion going on with the compound where it's worn. When in that position I can actually twist it with my hand a little. It of course has new gibs. The compound must be scraped back into check. It currently leaves me with half of it being tight enough to use and the rest too sloppy to do anything with.  How hard would it be to get that back in shape? If I got that part done first I'd be thrilled. Seems like I can start there and work my way down using that as reference for the rest. The machine restoration book mentions taking it from there down. But I haven't gotten far enough to know if that's the best way. 

Paul


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## Bob Korves (Mar 25, 2017)

expressline99 said:


> I was using my Logan again today and there is a hinging motion going on with the compound where it's worn. When in that position I can actually twist it with my hand a little. It of course has new gibs. The compound must be scraped back into check. It currently leaves me with half of it being tight enough to use and the rest too sloppy to do anything with.  How hard would it be to get that back in shape? If I got that part done first I'd be thrilled. Seems like I can start there and work my way down using that as reference for the rest. The machine restoration book mentions taking it from there down. But I haven't gotten far enough to know if that's the best way.
> 
> Paul


Paul, the first job in the sequence of operations of reconditioning a lathe (after leveling the bed) is scraping in the compound rest.  Great place to start, though the basic scraping skills must come first.  That is a straightforward job without a lot of surface area that needs to be worked on.

(Most people would probably want to attack the bed ways first when reconditioning a lathe, but they would only be making a LOT more work for themselves...  READ AND UNDERSTAND THE BOOK FIRST!)


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## expressline99 (Mar 25, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Paul, the first job in the sequence of operations of reconditioning a lathe (after leveling the bed) is scraping in the compound rest.  Great place to start, though the basic scraping skills must come first.  That is a straightforward job without a lot of surface area that needs to be worked on.
> 
> (Most people would probably want to attack the bed ways first when reconditioning a lathe, but they would only be making a LOT more work for themselves...  READ AND UNDERSTAND THE BOOK FIRST!)



Good well at least the way I'm reading it makes sense then.


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