# PM-727m  New mill has arrived!



## Sloth2009

I am a pharmacist by trade and have never used a milling machine before.  I decided to buy this mill mostly to help slot guards for my knife making hobby and for some other projects I have planned like crossbow parts and sterling engines.  I know it's been done before, but I'd like show a bit of my decision making plus the delivery and setup process.

          I decided I was going to buy a mill last fall and have been picking up some R8 tooling when I can.  I bought an integrated HHIP R8 drill chuck, a set of end mill holders, end mills, spot drills, and a 2" indexable carbide face mill.  Most of which was from Amazon.

          For work holding, I bought some pivot clamps, extra T-slot nuts, and a 4" Shars 440v milling vise.

        I may pick up a fly cutter for flexibility and potentially better finish than the Accusize face mill.   Eventually I would like a rotary table and some machine screw length drill bits as well.

        I decided on a Precision Matthews mill mostly because I have read good things about their mills and have heard great things about their customer service.  PM service has been spot on so far.  My x-axis power feed had to be back ordered but they let me know right away and are supposed to ship it as soon as it comes in.  I ordered the mill and payed via PayPal.  I ordered it without a stand because 3dshooter80 said his came with the top out of level.  Also most reviews have said the stand is a bit short for a good table height.  I instead ordered a 30" welded machine table from Global Industries for about the same price.  Its rated to 3000lbs and is a few inches taller than the standard PM base that comes with the mill.  It can also be bolted to the floor if needed.

          I chose the PM-727m because it appears to be more robust than the PM-25mv and has a longer quill down feed for drilling.  I did consider the PM-932m but it is simply too big and heavy for the space I have available.

          I ordered the PM-727m mill and payed via PayPal.  It came in on Thursday 3/23/17 exactly 2 weeks from when I ordered it.

          The mill came in good shape.  There is a small amount of surface rust on the very top of the z-axis.  I think it should cleanup with no problem and is not really in a critical place.  I uncrated the mill and cleaned off the packing grease with WD-40.

          I was just barely able to slide the mill and pallet across my garage.  Probably not a good idea to do this yourself like I did.  I also unbolted the column with a 10mm allen wrench and leaned the column and head back on a 4 wheel cart.  The base was heavy but I managed to lift it onto the chip tray and machine stand.  I spent some time trying to level base but got frustrated with having to pickup the base to place shims.  I broke down and ordered a adjustable machine base which should be here in a couple days.  I will keep you guys posted.


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## MonkMan

Thanks for the Post and pictures.


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## Bob Korves

Next time, get three lengths of 3/4" steel water pipe and roll your pallet on the pipes.  Keep them spaced evenly and when one rolls out the back, put it in the front again.  It is cheap, easy, fairly quick, and safe (on level surfaces!).  You will also need a pry bar and a block of wood to get it up onto the first roller.  On bigger machines it is indispensable if you don't have fancier lifting and moving equipment.  I have moved quite a few machines using that method.  Some practice helps pick up the speed quite a bit.  I have some pipes about three feet long and some about four feet long, and they have worked well for me on what we have moved with them, lathes, mills, and surface grinders up to more than a ton.


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## Sloth2009

Bob Korves said:


> Next time, get three lengths of 3/4" steel water pipe and roll your pallet on the pipes.  Keep them spaced evenly and when one rolls out the back, put it in the front again.  It is cheap, easy, fairly quick, and safe (on level surfaces!).  You will also need a pry bar and a block of wood to get it up onto the first roller.  On bigger machines it is indispensable if you don't have fancier lifting and moving equipment.  I have moved quite a few machines using that method.  Some practice helps pick up the speed quite a bit.  I have some pipes about three feet long and some about four feet long, and they have worked well for me on what we have moved with them, lathes, mills, and surface grinders up to more than a ton.


 
Thanks Bob, that is a great idea.


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## tweinke

Hope you enjoy your 727 as much as I do mine! Funny mine had a bit of rust in the same place, that cleaned right off. keep us posted on your progress.


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## lpeedin

Enjoy your new toy. I really do mine. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sloth2009

tweinke said:


> Hope you enjoy your 727 as much as I do mine! Funny mine had a bit of rust in the same place, that cleaned right off. keep us posted on your progress.


 
What did you use to get it off?  I have some Naval Jelly, but I'm afraid to cause more harm than good.


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## Sloth2009

lpeedin said:


> Enjoy your new toy. I really do mine.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 
Did you have to shim your column at all to get the mill in tram?  
I plan on tramming the spindle to column by adjusting the head, then tram spindle to table adjusting column with shims if needed.  I got that from the go704 Hoss videos on you tube.  Has anyone found a better way?


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## lpeedin

Sloth2009 said:


> Did you have to shim your column at all to get the mill in tram?
> I plan on tramming the spindle to column by adjusting the head, then tram spindle to table adjusting column with shims if needed.  I got that from the go704 Hoss videos on you tube.  Has anyone found a better way?



Yes, I shimmed mine & need to recheck it. Chad (3DShooter80) is the "expert" on tramming the Y axis. Maybe he'll chime in soon. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tweinke

Sloth2009 said:


> What did you use to get it off?  I have some Naval Jelly, but I'm afraid to cause more harm than good.


I used WD40 and a Scotch brite pad 9white) and it rubbed off nicely.


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## BFHammer

Congrats on the new arrival.  Thanks for sharing  some excellent pictures.  

Look forward to seeing some chips once you get settled. I have a PM932 on order and like you have been picking up tooling along the way.  Glad to see the number of PM owners here growing!


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## Sloth2009

tweinke said:


> I used WD40 and a Scotch brite pad 9white) and it rubbed off nicely.



Hey what do you know... I have some of that too.


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## Sloth2009

I am off of work all week and plan to make good used of the time.  The portable stand base in today from Amazon and I made some progress.  It is a Portamate pm-3500.  A PM stand for a PM mill.  Lol.  It's rated to 1500lbs.   It did end up being a bit big for my mill stand so I cut about 2" off all 4 internal adjusting bars and it turned out pretty well.

          I got the mill onto the stand and the locking rubber leveler feet had to much "squish" for my liking so I ground them down to bare metal on the KMG grinder.  The back of the base does not have levelers so I went to the hardware store and bought some 1/2" bolts and nuts.  I cut the bolt heads down to about 1/2 thickness and after drilling holes through the new base frame I installed the nuts and bolts with the bolt heads downwards to make homemade levelers.  In the 2nd to last picture you can see them sticking up in the back.  I spring loaded them to them from dragging.  I had a buddy drop by and he helped remount the mill column back onto its base.  I also cut a pice of plywood to make a shelf inside my stand.  All in all, a good day.


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## Sloth2009

I couldn't help myself,  I had to cut something.  I put in a 3/"4 Accusize roughing end mill and promptly cut myself.  I am just glad the machine wasn't on lol.

I am surprised at how quiet the machine is.  I put a pice of brass in the vice and made a few passes on it with the rougher.  Not too bad for my first milling "job" ever...

Tomorrow I need to level and tram the machine.  Maybe I will even take the table apart for a good cleaning.  I plan on running trough all the gears for a while and changing out the oil soon as well.


BFHammer said:


> Congrats on the new arrival.  Thanks for sharing  some excellent pictures.
> 
> Look forward to seeing some chips once you get settled. I have a PM932 on order and like you have been picking up tooling along the way.  Glad to see the number of PM owners here growing!



Awesome!  How are you going to move that beast?


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## BFHammer

New machine and a week off - that's like hitting the mini lottery!  Glad that was just a scratch, I have to say I'm impressed - 24 hours from arrival to chips and pictures - you're setting the bar high!



> Awesome!  How are you going to move that beast?


I actually am having my PM932 and a PM1236 shipped together to save a little freight.  Unfortunately my shop is not accessible for a large truck.  I'm going to rent a drop trailer and pallet jack to transport from the freight terminal to the shop.  Once in the shop I have an engine hoist and should be able handle without too much trouble.  Although these are a little heavier than most of my equipment I have moved quite a bit with various combinations of hoist, jacks, dolleys and my four teenage sons!


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## TheGov

Sloth2009 said:


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> I plan on running trough all the gears for a while and changing out the oil soon as well.



Definitely change the oil after going through all the gears...mine looked clear in the sight glass, but once drained out, that's a different story. (Plus it was overfilled). After new oil, it got quieter.


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## Sloth2009

I ran into a bit of a roadblock with tramming.  I don't have anything reasonably precise and long enough to indicate from in an end mill holder, and I don't have an accurate square.  I did do the best I could with the largest end mill holder, but it probably only has about 2 1/2 inches of good surface.  I ordered a precision 8" square to assist with later tramming.


I built an enclosure into my stand.  I just used some painted plywood for the base, and some spare hardboard for the sides and back.  I drilled and tapped 1/4-20 holes to make the panels replaceable if needed.  I also drilled mount holes in the base frame and bolted the base and stand together.  I bought an oil can and filled it with Vactra oil No. 2 and oiled up all the ways.


I changed out the gear oil today with Lucas 80w-90.  Like the TheGov said, it came out pretty nasty.  Lots of swarf in the bottom of the can.  I ran some extra oil through the gear box hopefully to flush out anything left.


I completed my first project!  I used the face mill to true up the top of my drill press vice.  I mounted the vise to the mill table and cut through the cast iron body and the chuck jaws no problem.


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## Sloth2009

Forgot the pics!


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## Bob Korves

Sloth2009 said:


> I ran into a bit of a roadblock with tramming. I don't have anything reasonably precise and long enough to indicate from in an end mill holder, and I don't have an accurate square. I did do the best I could with the largest end mill holder, but it probably only has about 2 1/2 inches of good surface. I ordered a precision 8" square to assist with later tramming.


The only accurate thing needed for tramming is the dial indicator, and it does not even need to be accurate, only repeatable.  Besides that, all you need is a rigid way to mount it in the spindle and hold the indicator where it will circumscribe a circle that measures somewhere near the width of the table.  It is only a comparative measure, move the head until the indicator reads close to the same around the left, right, front, and rear points of the circle.  On your mill, changing the front and rear requires realigning the column to the bed.  Save that chore for later if it is an issue.  Just know what it is for now.  If it is within a couple thousandths, it is OK.


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## Sloth2009

Bob Korves said:


> The only accurate thing needed for tramming is the dial indicator, and it does not even need to be accurate, only repeatable.  Besides that, all you need is a rigid way to mount it in the spindle and hold the indicator where it will circumscribe a circle that measures somewhere near the width of the table.  It is only a comparative measure, move the head until the indicator reads close to the same around the left, right, front, and rear points of the circle.  On your mill, changing the front and rear requires realigning the column to the bed.  Save that chore for later if it is an issue.  Just know what it is for now.  If it is within a couple thousandths, it is OK.


Thanks.  I got my test indicator mount in today and was able to get the spindle x-axis to within 0.0005 over 6.5" to the table.  My y-axis is terrible though with about 0.006 forward nod over the same distance, so am definitely going to have to shim the column in the front.


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## Sloth2009

My biggest concern is the "flex" in the column.  If I grab the top of the column and push back or forwards I get a lot of movement (0.005 or more) in the y-axis testing from spindle to table.  The x-axis doesn't have the same problem, and it still shows up the same if I push on the head instead.  I tried flexing the stand/base, but that had almost no effect.  I tightened the 4 mounting bolts as tight as I could without a big cheater but it still has the problem.  How much of this flex is normal?  Is there a torque spec for the column bolts? Has anybody run into this before?


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## David VanNorman

I bought a PM 932. I like it a lot I mounted it  on a  stand I had with casters so I can move it around. I found out that the dial for the Quill is hard to see as I am not tall.When I get my mods dun I will take off the casters. It will be about 5" lower and that will make the dial easier to see. I also took off the head raising crank and added a DC motor and drive. I can now elevate the head and change tooling much easier. I put limit switches so I can then bring the head back to where it was. I like the 932.

Dave


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## Sloth2009

Sloth2009 said:


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> My biggest concern is the "flex" in the column.  If I grab the top of the column and push back or forwards I get a lot of movement (0.005 or more) in the y-axis testing from spindle to table.  The x-axis doesn't have the same problem, and it still shows up the same if I push on the head instead.  I tried flexing the stand/base, but that had almost no effect.  I tightened the 4 mounting bolts as tight as I could without a big cheater but it still has the problem.  How much of this flex is normal?  Is there a torque spec for the column bolts? Has anybody run into this before?



Anyone have any ideas on how to address the flex?


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## xman_charl

are the gibs tight?

did you lower the head or raise it?

lowering the head on my mill, sort of jumpy if a cut is taken

so lower the head, then raise up about a half turn, no more jumps, think its a backlash thingy

Charl


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## tweinke

I do notice some " flex" in my PM727 column also. with the gibs locked. I measure about .0015 to .0025.pushing fairly hard on the motor with the head at about 1/2 travel up the column. More deflection with gibs unlocked. I realize I did not buy a K&T or the like and am very satisfied with my mill. I just finished squaring the column and tramming, got the column within .002 in 6 inches both directions and of my figuring is correct that's .0003333 per inch which for my purposes should be fine because I don't make any aerospace parts. The mill out of the crate impressed me with the cuts it was capable of and the finish with decent end mills is good. I have found myself chasing zeros when I should not be and have learned that lesson well. Anyone want to comment on .002 in 6 inches?


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## Sloth2009

xman_charl said:


> are the gibs tight?
> 
> did you lower the head or raise it?
> 
> lowering the head on my mill, sort of jumpy if a cut is taken
> 
> so lower the head, then raise up about a half turn, no more jumps, think its a backlash thingy
> 
> Charl


I did lock the y-axis gibs.  However I can replicate the "flex" just by pushing hard on the column so I think it rules out the gibs or head travel direction?  I checked all the mounting bolts and they are all tight.


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## Sloth2009

I am thinking about removing the column again and making sure there is no crud between the mating surfaces and possibly touching them up with a stone.  Has anyone tried to make the column to base connection more rigid?


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## Bob Korves

tweinke said:


> (snip)Anyone want to comment on .002 in 6 inches?


Most people here (and elsewhere) have never checked their machines for accuracy, and I guess they suppose it must be perfect if they are not having explicit problems.  "A test is worth a lot of guesses."  For the vast majority of the work we do, it just does not matter.  For some cuts, it really does...


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## TheGov

I noticed the sequence in which the column bolts were tightened played a big part. Just tighten in the same order and torque each time.

I too wondered about the torque spec. Ended up going 55 ft-lbs, then 65 ft-lbs, called it good and made chips.


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## Bob Korves

Sloth2009 said:


> I am thinking about removing the column again and making sure there is no crud between the mating surfaces and possibly touching them up with a stone.  Has anyone tried to make the column to base connection more rigid?


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## Sloth2009

Bob Korves said:


>


Very interesting!
I am in the process of ordering some Diamont DWH.   Their website and ordering process is not very transparent.  Surprisingly it is not that expensive in the small quantities we would use on a column mount.


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## jbolt

Sloth2009 said:


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> My biggest concern is the "flex" in the column.  If I grab the top of the column and push back or forwards I get a lot of movement (0.005 or more) in the y-axis testing from spindle to table.  The x-axis doesn't have the same problem, and it still shows up the same if I push on the head instead.  I tried flexing the stand/base, but that had almost no effect.  I tightened the 4 mounting bolts as tight as I could without a big cheater but it still has the problem.  How much of this flex is normal?  Is there a torque spec for the column bolts? Has anybody run into this before?



My PM-932 does the same thing. I get about .002 to .003 flex if I tug on the head. It has no measurable affect when taking finishing cuts so I don't worry about it.


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## Sloth2009

I believe I ordered the same product Stefan Gotteswinter uses in his youtube video on epoxy tramming.  In the US, you have to call Devitt Machinery Co. to place an order.  Devitt appears to be the only US distributer for Diamant products.  Ordering was quick and painless.  I will see how the epoxy works when it comes in.

Devitt Phone:  1 (877) 368-1528

I ordered:
50 gram kit of DWH 310 FL:  $13.00
50 gram injector:  $2.50


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## Sloth2009

Being a retentive pharmacist, I ordered some teflon washers to fill the gap in the handle knobs.  The click clack sound of my uneven rotation irritated me.


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## Sloth2009

I also bought a nice little R8 collet organizer


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## Ironken

Sloth2009 said:


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> Being a retentive pharmacist, I ordered some teflon washers to fill the gap in the handle knobs.  The click clack sound of my uneven rotation irritated me.



That's a great idea!


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## Sloth2009

I tried to mill in the 12mm step in the fixture keys that came with my vise but they proved to be way too hard for my HSS end mills.  I waffled on if I would make some stepped vise keys from some 4140 stock or buy some pre-made.  I ended up buying some because I didn't feel like trying to harden them.  Here is a website you can purchase some stepped vise keys to fit the 12mm slots on the pm-727m.

https://www.carrlane.com/en-us/product/locators/fixture-keys/step-fixture-keys


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## Bob Korves

T-nuts do not need to be hardened or made from high alloy steel.  T-nuts made from mild steel or from mystery metal will work fine in a home shop.  You don't want to crank on the fasteners anyway, because you will damage the table or the T-slots.  Production T-nuts are hardened, probably to give them better wearing properties and to allow them to take heavier loads without failing, even though that is a mistake.  I never gronk down on fasteners going into T-slots.  Break out a chunk of cast iron table and you will know why...


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## Sloth2009

Bob Korves said:


> T-nuts do not need to be hardened or made from high alloy steel.  T-nuts made from mild steel or from mystery metal will work fine in a home shop.  You don't want to crank on the fasteners anyway, because you will damage the table or the T-slots.  Production T-nuts are hardened, probably to give them better wearing properties and to allow them to take heavier loads without failing, even though that is a mistake.  I never gronk down on fasteners going into T-slots.  Break out a chunk of cast iron table and you will know why...


These look like T-nuts but they are not.   They are called stepped vise or fixture keys.  They attach to the bottom of a precision vise.  They are only T-shaped due to try to match them with the table slots, otherwise they come rectangular.  They are also precisely ground and hardened.  Kurt sells them for over $30 per pair but not in 12mm.  They are precision milled vice keys meant to tram in your vise reasonably accurately to the table slots simply by setting them in the slots.


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## Bob Korves

Sloth2009 said:


> View attachment 230750
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> 
> These look like T-nuts but they are not.   They are called stepped vise or fixture keys.  They attach to the bottom of a precision vise.  They are only T-shaped due to try to match them with the table slots, otherwise they come rectangular.  They are also precisely ground and hardened.  Kurt sells them for over $30 per pair but not in 12mm.  They are precision milled vice keys meant to tram in your vise reasonably accurately to the table slots simply by setting them in the slots.


I use shop made keys for that purpose with my BP vise.  They are accurately made of 1018 steel to a nice fit in both vise (tight) and table (snug but sliding), and are soft so they do not ding the slots.  All the exposed corners are carefully rounded in all directions so they do not scratch and ding the table or the slots.  They work great and are essentially free.  I have the facilities to harden them, but consider that a bad idea.


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## Sloth2009

Bob Korves said:


> I use shop made keys for that purpose with my BP vise.  They are accurately made of 1018 steel to a nice fit in both vise (tight) and table (snug but sliding), and are soft so they do not ding the slots.  All the exposed corners are carefully rounded in all directions so they do not scratch and ding the table or the slots.  They work great and are essentially free.  I have the facilities to harden them, but consider that a bad idea.


That makes sense.


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## Sloth2009

Received the DWH today.  It is gonna take some clean up, set up, and other prep work before I feel comfortable moving forward with the epoxy tram.  However I thought I would post a few pics of the product.  Thanks to Mr. Korves for recommending the epoxy tram video.  FYI the cans do have expiration dates.


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## Sloth2009

My z-axis gib is at full adjustment and still needs to move in a little more.   The other gibs adjusted as expected.  I haven't particularly noticed slop in the z-axis but wanted to tighten it up as much as reasonably possible.  I adjusted the screws all the way in and was still able to tap it in a bit farther with a brass rod with out excessive friction on the ways.  I had to back the screws off though because the bottom gib screw ran out of thread.  I'm thought about cutting a little of the bottom of the gib to give the bottom screw more purchase, but I'm not sure it would get me enough movement.   I may have to ask Matt at PM.  Is there any known remedy for this besides shimming or remaking the gib?


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## Bob Korves

Sloth2009 said:


> My z-axis gib is at full adjustment and still needs to move in a little more.   The other gibs adjusted as expected.  I haven't particularly noticed slop in the z-axis but wanted to tighten it up as much as reasonably possible.  I adjusted the screws all the way in and was still able to tap it in a bit farther with a brass rod with out excessive friction on the ways.  I had to back the screws off though because the bottom gib screw ran out of thread.  I'm thought about cutting a little of the bottom of the gib to give the bottom screw more purchase, but I'm not sure it would get me enough movement.   I may have to ask Matt at PM.  Is there any known remedy for this besides shimming or remaking the gib?


Shims.


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## darkzero

Sloth2009 said:


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> I also bought a nice little R8 collet organizer



I have that same R8 rack from Sisan Co that I use for my R8 tooling. I don't use very many R8 collets. I love that rack. Great quality & inexpensive. I ordered directly from Sisan & it showed up the next day. I had no idea they were local to me.


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## Sloth2009

darkzero said:


> I have that same R8 rack from Sisan Co that I use for my R8 tooling. I don't use very many R8 collets. I love that rack. Great quality & inexpensive. I ordered directly from Sisan & it showed up the next day. I had no idea they were local to me.


Yea I like it too.  It was priced better than others I saw online also.


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## Sloth2009

I ended up cutting off the part of the gib sticking out.   About a 1/2 inch.   I was able to get just enough adjustment out of the top screw to get slide reasonably tight and both screws in the right spot.


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## darkzero

Sloth2009 said:


> View attachment 230753
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> View attachment 230751
> 
> These look like T-nuts but they are not.   They are called stepped vise or fixture keys.  They attach to the bottom of a precision vise.  They are only T-shaped due to try to match them with the table slots, otherwise they come rectangular.  They are also precisely ground and hardened.  Kurt sells them for over $30 per pair but not in 12mm.  They are precision milled vice keys meant to tram in your vise reasonably accurately to the table slots simply by setting them in the slots.



Some people like those vise locating keys, some people don't. I'm part of those who don't, not on my vise or rotary table anyway. I like to slide my vise onto the table (especially if you have a heavy one) & move it around before setting in location. Quick & easy to tram the vise anyway.

But for my super spacer & tailstock I do use them. I don't rely on them for tram but rather for a general index for one table slot to help get the tailstock in line quicker when I need it.

I did have to mill a step in the locating keys for my super spacer to fit my table. Carbide end mill did the job.


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## TheGov

After a few weeks making chips, last night I noticed that the 'Y' table has developed some slop in the y direction. I snugged down the backlash adjustment, but that didn't effect the slop. The play was the same.
Any suggestion on where to look for this new play?


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## darkzero

Adjust the gib.


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## Sloth2009

TheGov said:


> After a few weeks making chips, last night I noticed that the 'Y' table has developed some slop in the y direction. I snugged down the backlash adjustment, but that didn't effect the slop. The play was the same.
> Any suggestion on where to look for this new play?


I just adjusted mine... I pulled out both gib screws and lightly tapped the gib in farther from the front with a little piece of brass and hammer until the slide stiffened up.  Replaced the screws and adjusted them until I got a reasonable balance between friction and tightness.  Both screws should be tight when finished.  You can adjust with just the screws but I found it hard to feel how tight the gib was.    You can also use the table movement to slide gib in and out out if the screws are loosened up.    Essentially you need to tighten the front screw and loosen the back screw to move the gib in and tighten the Y axis up.


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## Sloth2009

Sloth2009 said:


> I just adjusted mine... I pulled out both gib screws and lightly tapped the gib in farther from the front with a little piece of brass and hammer until the slide stiffened up.  Replaced the screws and adjusted them until I got a reasonable balance between friction and tightness.  Both screws should be tight when finished.  You can adjust with just the screws but I found it hard to feel how tight the gib was.    You can also use the table movement to slide gib in and out out if the screws are loosened up.    Essentially you need to tighten the front screw and loosen the back screw to move the gib in and tighten the Y axis up.


For the PM-727m, The Z-xis gib needs to move down to tighten. The X axis gib needs to move left to tighten. The Y axis gib needs to move towards the back of the machine to tighten.   The gib is essentially  just a wedge you drive inbetween the ways to take up non linear movement.


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## TheGov

Thanks for the info on adjusting the gibs...Found out what the real problem was though, the bolts that hold the lead screw nut to the saddle were holding on by tess than a thread.


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## Sloth2009

TheGov said:


> Thanks for the info on adjusting the gibs...Found out what the real problem was though, the bolts that hold the lead screw nut to the saddle were holding on by tess than a thread.


Glad you found the issue.  Did you have to take both tables off to get to that?


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## TheGov

Sloth2009 said:


> Glad you found the issue.  Did you have to take both tables
> Off to get to that?


Nope...just the X axis, (turns out I said Y when I really ment X...proof not to post while at work)


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## Sloth2009

A proof of concept.  I bought a $12 flex coupler from Amazon.  Ground a flat a magnetic screwdriver bit holder and voila'.  I don't expect the coupler to last long.  Its pretty light duty and would be better off being a solid piece.  Better than hand cranking Z though.  


Here is a link to the coupler:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06X99YYFJ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Sloth2009

Has anyone used these Kodiak carbides?  I've never bought $$$ end mills before so I hope they are worth it.   If they turn out good I will probably pick up the square 4-flute set also.


----------



## Sloth2009

Quick and dirty end mill organizer.  The wood is an ash wheel barrow handle you can by at any home improvement store or $12 or so.   You could get a lot of these out of a handle.  I had some left over from another project.  Makes a pretty decent end mill and bit organizer.


----------



## Sloth2009

Newbie aluminum practice.  I cut the narrow outside surfaces with a 3 insert inexible face mill.   After failing to grind a HSS bit correctly, I used a carbide bit in a fly cutter with a right handed spin to cut the wide outside surfaces.  I hogged out most of the center with a 3/4" corncob rougher.  Then cleaned it up and made the cross with a 3/8" 2 flute HSS Pend mill.  I then chamfered the top and bottem edges with a 3/8" ball nose carbide end mill.


----------



## Sloth2009

Sloth2009 said:


> View attachment 230585
> View attachment 230586
> View attachment 230587
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being a retentive pharmacist, I ordered some teflon washers to fill the gap in the handle knobs.  The click clack sound of my uneven rotation irritated me.


I found a better fix to the handle clicking.  The screw shaft that the handle spins on protrudes slightly out the back.  This shoulder was catching the teflon washers and tearing them up.  I wanted something to just barely fit over the shoulder and still be fairly low friction.  I measured the shoulder and ordered some copper crush washers from Amazon.  When I installed them, I hit the screw shoulder lightly with a file so when you tighten the screw down the pressure forces the washer onto the handle shaft.  Along with some blue thread locker I finally got the handles how I want them and the copper washers should last luch longer.


Copper crush washer:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MTZWSSO/ref=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0


----------



## Sloth2009

Playing around with HSS.  My one previous bit grind didn't cut too well with a fly cutter on Al.  I realized I hadn't cut in a rake angle at all so I reground and added one.   I am also now wondering about the nose radius?   Is it too small?  Any grinding suggestions?


----------



## Bob Korves

Nose radius can be small or large, as needed.  First, you should always have a radius, even if it is very small.  Otherwise the tool will chip.  A small radius is good when you want to push the tool less hard.  That might be to minimize deflection on a long and slender part, or when your machine is under powered.  A big radius is for a good surface finish, or to make a large radius corner.  If your machine or setup is not rigid enough to power the larger cutting area, you may get chatter, or bog down the lathe if it is not powerful enough.  That is a nice thing about HSS tooling.  You can easily make the tool match the circumstances, and keep tweaking it until it works good.


----------



## Sloth2009

My powered x-axis is still on back order from PM.  I decided to cancel that for now and ordered the 3 axis Dro through PM.  I think it will be money well spent.  I have next week off.  I plan to do the epoxy tram on the column.  Wish me luck.


----------



## Sloth2009

Oh. I got my aluminum t-slot covers today and fit them in.  Oddly the t-slot in the front of my table is slightly wider than the back 2 and the covers fall through.  I just stacked 2 covers on top of one another and they fit perfectly.  The way covers slide pretty easily.  I may put a little tape on the side of them to increase their staying power.


----------



## Sloth2009

The placement of the wires on the back of the pm727m switch box are annoying to say the least.  They are right in the way of the z-axis locks and of one of the head locking bolts.  I bought some 90 degree cable glans to change the output direction of the wires, but realized there is an even easier fix.   Simply turn the power box back plate upside down!  I may add a small eye bolt to the back of the colum or something similar to guide the power cord as the head moves up and down.


----------



## fradish

Turning the backplate upside down is a good idea (which of course I didn't think of...)   

I made round aluminum knobs for my z-axis locks because I was running into the same issue.    
Plus I'm not a fan of the spring loaded locking levers that come on the mill.  I even prefer the 
hinged locks on the y-axis to the spring loaded locks.  Just a personal preference.

I've replaced my x-axis locks too as they would sometimes interfere with the base.  I've never 
found that I needed to tighten these more than hand-tight, but even if I did I used socket 
head cap screws so I can tighten them with a hex wrench if I ever need more leverage.


----------



## Sloth2009

Well... I did the epoxy tram today.  Now time to wait 24 hours and do some testing.   Here is an outline of the process I used.


PM-727m DWH Epoxy Tram

Phase 1:  Initial Setup

Buy and install 4 longer 12mm bolts
Pull mill from wall for 360 deg access
Level table by adjusting mobile base
Clean machine and chip tray of chips and oil
Remove way covers
Loosen bolts and rock column from front to back adding larger shims during each tilt
Aim for at least 1" gap to make cleaning critical surfaces easier


Phase 2:  Critical surface Prep

Clean mating surfaces and around column base
Wipe down with isopropyl alcohol and acetone
Scrape off any paint or Chinese putty
Use 120g sandpaper to roughen critical surfaces
Clean critical surfaces again with acetone
Install at least 2'layers of double sided foam tape to prevent epoxy from leaking to inside of column


Phase 3:  Gap setup

Lower column to about 1/2" gap
Install original bolts
Install 2 copper crush washers on each bolt
gap = 0.090" good thickness for DWH
Lower column onto copper washers
Lightly snug down bolts


Phase 4:  Masking off

Clean areas to be masked off
Tape off large gaps in front rear of column with painters tape
Tape and off column, base and chip tray where needed


Phase 5:  Epoxy injection

Install test indicator and tram column roughly to table
Temperature ok for epoxy?
Mix epoxy and hardner for 3 minutes
Inject prepared epoxy evenly into gap
Tape gaps to keep epoxy from running out
Tram z to table with square using column bolts to change tram
Do y axis 1st then x... then y again.
Be as precise as possible especially in y-axis
Let cure 24 hours


----------



## jbolt

Curious if you used any kind of mold release on one side of the mating surfaces you epoxied in case you ever want or need to remove the column?


----------



## Sloth2009

jbolt said:


> Curious if you used any kind of mold release on one side of the mating surfaces you epoxied in case you ever want or need to remove the column?



No I ended up deciding against it.  I did think about it quite a bit.  I originally wanted to wax or teflon grease just the bottom of the column so it could be separated if needed.

First I figured it would be fairly difficult to get a thin even layer of release on the upside down surface without some way to lift the column completely off the base.  I did this tram 100% myself with only manpower, so it was difficult already.  Second, I thought the adhesion of the epoxy to both surfaces would add some more strength in tension as well as compression at the joint.  Essentially adding stronger and more even downward holding power than the mounting bolts alone.  I'm still not entirely convinced that line of thinking is correct and I may regret it later.  It definitely made the tramming a bit more stressful.

I ended up not filling the gap in the front of the column.  I couldn't get the syringe in the right place to inject.  I could fill this in later if I want, or leave it open in case I need to go at it with a crowbar. 

At this point there are a few things I would have done differently.  I should have found a short thin piece of tubing to attach to the syringe tip.  The syringe tip by itself was too short and wide to fit very far into the gap.  I also would cover all the gaps in strong clear packing tape before injection.  Poke a small hole in it with a screw, inject through the hole, then tape it back up when done.  I figured this out 3/4 the way through injecting after making a mess.  3 or 4 injection holes along each side would do the trick.  Make and plug the holes as you go to reduce mess.  The clear tape lets you see the gap fill up as well.  I used 2 50 DWH kits along with 2 injection syringes.  With my mess, I just barely had enough to fill the 3 sides.


----------



## Sloth2009

As a little side test, I lightly greased a HSS tool bit and shimmed it into my fly cutter.  There was a slight gap at one end due to poor machining.  When I mixed up the epoxy earlier I squirted a tiny bit in the gap.  I just checked it out and it seemed to have worked pretty well.  I think I will wait the full cure time to check out the mill though.


----------



## Greebles

Nice write up. Having this increases my confidence in doing this for myself. However I think I would have used mold release on both mating surfaces.

-Denzil


----------



## Sloth2009

Overall I am satisfied with the epoxy tram results.  The y axis was a bit out when I first measured this morning.  Maybe my precision square is not so square.  There was just enough adjustability left in the mounting bolts to get it on track.  Right now from spindle to table my x and y are both measuring about 0.0005 difference over 6.5".  Here is a picture of the epoxied gap after removing all the tape.  Its a bit messy, but turned out ok.


----------



## Sloth2009

I don't think you need to be afraid of this stuff if something goes wrong.  I let some do a full cure on a stick and drilled through it with a drill press with no problem.  If you had to undo an epoxy tram you could drill around the gap with a small bit until the column breaks loose. Then you could grind it off and reapply as needed.


----------



## Sloth2009

Got the 3-axis dro from PM today.  They were about $450 and are supposed to be good down to 0.0002.  I had never even seen a dro before so was a bit overwhelmed with all the pieces and parts.  There is not much help in the paperwork to tell you how to install them.  I did a little research and familiarizing myself with the parts and I think I have a decent handle on it now.  I will go buy some standard bolts tomorrow for the mounts so I don't have to buy find a metric tap.  If all goes well I will install them tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## Greebles

I have installed this very same DRO on my PM-727. I can provide photos of my install and answer any questions you need.

-Denzil


----------



## wrmiller

Yea, the first install can be a bit overwhelming. But then after you get it done, you realize it wasn't so bad. I studied a lot of the pictures on DroPros website before I did mine. Still ended up doing it over. 

Greebles is willing to help, and has the same mill. That should help considerably. Have fun.


----------



## Sloth2009

Greebles said:


> I have installed this very same DRO on my PM-727. I can provide photos of my install and answer any questions you need.
> 
> -Denzil


I would love some pics, esp of where you mounted the reader and its mounting bracket on the x and y axis.   Is your y-axis dro on the right hand side?  Does it get in the way of the gib locks?  Would you have done anything differently?


----------



## Greebles

I installed the Y-Axis on the left side of the machine to prevent interference with the Y Locks and mounted the X Axis reader to the front.

Make sure you measure and mark the table and saddle travel before you begin. In the pictures below you will notice green marks (lines) where I did that. This allowed me to make sure I aligned the scales and readers properly to allow for full travel (allowing for extra travel on each end for safety).




Here you can see the X-Axis scale is mounted to the table using the dove tale track that was already machined into the table. The Scale Reader is mounted to the saddle with an L bracket.




I marked the center of the saddle along the X and drilled / tapped two holes (10-32). They are the two lower horizontal holes.




Y-Axis mounting was more work. On the left side of the machine I made a standoff that I mounted to the casting with two countersunk cap screws. I drilled tapped holes into this standoff for mounting another bracket to extend out over the base casting.









-Denzil


----------



## Sloth2009

Greebles said:


> I installed the Y-Axis on the left side of the machine to prevent interference with the Y Locks and mounted the X Axis reader to the front.
> 
> Make sure you measure and mark the table and saddle travel before you begin. In the pictures below you will notice green marks (lines) where I did that. This allowed me to make sure I aligned the scales and readers properly to allow for full travel (allowing for extra travel on each end for safety).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here you can see the X-Axis scale is mounted to the table using the dove tale track that was already machined into the table. The Scale Reader is mounted to the saddle with an L bracket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I marked the center of the saddle along the X and drilled / tapped two holes (10-32). They are the two lower horizontal holes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Y-Axis mounting was more work. On the left side of the machine I made a standoff that I mounted to the casting with two countersunk cap screws. I drilled tapped holes into this standoff for mounting another bracket to extend out over the base casting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Denzil


Thank you for the pics!


----------



## Sloth2009

Im pretty much done installing the dro.  I did the z and x axis yesterday and finished the y axis today.   I still need to so some cord management and test the scales for linearity and accuracy.   I did indicate in the mounting plates for the scales so should be pretty good overall.  Everything powers up and outputs to the monitor which is good. 

Denzil's y-axis install would be the way to go.  I asked Matt why they put their install on the right side and he said it is only due to convention,  but there is no reason to do it on this mill.  I made more work for myself and put it on the right side with a bracket off the back of the table for the reader.  This avoids crowding the gib locks.

For the x-axis I fabricated a bracket and mounted the assmebly to the back of the table.  This should give me enough room to reattach the way covers.

Half the mounting brackets are modified in some way.  I also made a bracket for the swing arm so I could get it higher on the column.  All my tapped holes are 10-32.  I center punched, pilot drilled and used a drill/tap combo bit in a dewalt drill to tap the holes.


----------



## Redmech

Great thread, lots of good info I'm going to study


----------



## Sloth2009

Just for giggles, I took the back panel into a car paint store and had them make me up a can of matching aerosol paint.   I sprayed some on some foil and let it thicken up a bit.  I then used a small brush to fill in all the little paint dings around the machine.  I did a pretty shoddy job with the bondo and painting on the column but it looks better than it did.


----------



## Sloth2009

Not exactly milling with precision, but I used the mill to create the inside cavity in a wood sheath and handle for a sword I forged.  The wood is from an ash wheelbarrow handle that I cut down the middle then glued back together after I milled it.  Still a lot of work to do to make it look pretty.


----------



## Sloth2009

Bought some M8x25 replacement knobs for the lockdown levers.  The stock front levers tend to catch when you move the x-axis if you don't have them set perfectly.


----------



## Sloth2009

I also bought a project box, cut some holes into it and mounted it to the back of the DRO display arm.  I stuffed all the excess data cables into it to tidy them up a bit.  Just need to tidy up a few more and it will be good to go.


----------



## Ironken

Sloth2009 said:


> View attachment 232804
> View attachment 232805
> 
> Bought some M8x25 replacement knobs fro the lockdown levers.  The stock front levers tend to catch when you move the x-axis if you don't have them set perfectly.



Genius! Do you get enough torque on the knobs to lock the table down?


----------



## Sloth2009

Ironken said:


> Genius! Do you get enough torque on the knobs to lock the table down?


Yep they work great.  It wasn't really my idea, [fradish] mentioned he had made some knobs for his.  I don't have a lathe so just bought mine.  For less than $8 per pair and free prime shipping they were hard to beat.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01481EI8G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## Sloth2009

Sloth2009 said:


> Yep they work great.  It wasn't really my idea, [fradish] mentioned he had made some knobs for his.  I don't have a lathe so just bought mine.  For less than $8 per pair and free prime shipping they were hard to beat.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01481EI8G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## TheGov

Since this is "the go to thread" on the 727, I've got a note, w/ pic, and a question.
First the note, drained the gear oil today, again. Got curious, so vacuum filtered it to see the particulates. Oh boy... (see pic for what I mean).

Now the question ...I changed the oil because I noticed a lot of play up and down on the quill when I use the fine adjustment. Has something gone bad, hence the metal debree? What/where should I look first to resolve the play issue? 
Side note, I'm going to completely flush the gear box this weekend.


----------



## TheGov

Sloth2009 said:


> View attachment 232804
> View attachment 232805
> 
> Bought some M8x25 replacement knobs for the lockdown levers.  The stock front levers tend to catch when you move the x-axis if you don't have them set perfectly.


Those be some 'perty' knobs...


----------



## Sloth2009

TheGov said:


> Since this is "the go to thread" on the 727, I've got a note, w/ pic, and a question.
> First the note, drained the gear oil today, again. Got curious, so vacuum filtered it to see the particulates. Oh boy... (see pic for what I mean).
> 
> Now the question ...I changed the oil because I noticed a lot of play up and down on the quill when I use the fine adjustment. Has something gone bad, hence the metal debree? What/where should I look first to resolve the play issue?
> Side note, I'm going to completely flush the gear box this weekend.


I got close to that amount of crud in my first (only) oil change.  Have many times you changed it before?

Looking at the pm-727m's blueprints It appears the coarse/fine feed shaft doesn't go into the gearbox.  It goes below and to the back of the quill where those teeth are cut in the back of it. If you look under the head behind the spindle, you can see where they engage. 

If there is slop up and down on the quill and only during fine feed then there might be an issue with the worm gear engagement.  Maybe the clamp knob is not in tight enough? Gunk in the worm gear?  To me , part (3) and (21) are worth looking at.


----------



## tweinke

TheGov said:


> Since this is "the go to thread" on the 727, I've got a note, w/ pic, and a question.
> First the note, drained the gear oil today, again. Got curious, so vacuum filtered it to see the particulates. Oh boy... (see pic for what I mean).
> 
> Now the question ...I changed the oil because I noticed a lot of play up and down on the quill when I use the fine adjustment. Has something gone bad, hence the metal debree? What/where should I look first to resolve the play issue?
> Side note, I'm going to completely flush the gear box this weekend.



The fine adjust does not go into the part of the mill with the oil in it, is the correct answer. My 727 also has debris in the oil that looks shiny but I'm wondering if its paint because if I stick a magnet in it don't get much on the magnet. I was thinking I should pull the top cover to take a peek and while I'm there flush out the inside


----------



## fradish

With my PM727 I have occasionally had an issue with the fine feed where I'll be watching the DRO and turning the
wheel and nothing seems to happen, then the quill just seems to jump maybe 10 thousandths rather than smoothly
moving.  I had thought that possibly I had not cleaned off the outer barrel of the quill enough or lubricated it
enough or maybe even that I didn't have the quill lock loosened sufficiently and this was causing the quill to stick.  

At this moment I have not been able to narrow it down to what is causing it.  What I can say is that when I 
received the mill the downfeed housing (#2 in the diagram above) was loose and I had to tighten up the bolts (#22). Maybe I need to dig into the downfeed and check the gears that Sloth2009 pointed out.  I would hope that I don't 
have a missing tooth on #21, but that might also explain what I am seeing, thought I mainly see this between cuts
as I release the quill lock and make depth changes, so maybe I'm just not loosening the quill lock enough.

I'll just have to play around with it some more and see if I can consistently reproduce the issue and if so, figure out
what it causing it.


----------



## Sloth2009

fradish said:


> With my PM727 I have occasionally had an issue with the fine feed where I'll be watching the DRO and turning the
> wheel and nothing seems to happen, then the quill just seems to jump maybe 10 thousandths rather than smoothly
> moving.  I had thought that possibly I had not cleaned off the outer barrel of the quill enough or lubricated it
> enough or maybe even that I didn't have the quill lock loosened sufficiently and this was causing the quill to stick.
> 
> At this moment I have not been able to narrow it down to what is causing it.  What I can say is that when I
> received the mill the downfeed housing (#2 in the diagram above) was loose and I had to tighten up the bolts (#22). Maybe I need to dig into the downfeed and check the gears that Sloth2009 pointed out.  I would hope that I don't
> have a missing tooth on #21, but that might also explain what I am seeing, thought I mainly see this between cuts
> as I release the quill lock and make depth changes, so maybe I'm just not loosening the quill lock enough.
> 
> I'll just have to play around with it some more and see if I can consistently reproduce the issue and if so, figure out
> what it causing it.


I've had similar "slipages" occur.  I figured it was due to a  combination of the column lock and/or the fine feed locking knob engagement, as playing with those tend to fix it.  I wonder if the order in which they are locked and unlocked makes a difference.  I will look at mine too and see if I can figure out anything.


----------



## fradish

One thing I just saw tonight is that the quill dro shifts up and down by a fraction of an
inch when changing direction using the coarse quill feed lever.  I probably need to take
off the knobs and face plate to see if I can locktite the screws holding the dro in.  If the
dro is loose and shifting that might be causing the issue I am seeing.

Before I go to that trouble, maybe I'll wedge a business card between the dro and faceplate
to see if that gets rid of it.


----------



## fradish

Ok, it isn't the loose dro (thought I'll still have to fix that).

I think it is slop in key #23.  I think when there is pressure on the key it turns
the shaft smoothly, but when the key reaches 12 o'clock or 6 the shaft slips by the amount
of the slop.  I've had hub #18 off once already.  I'll take it off again and mark a dot on the outside
of the hub in line with the key way and see if that is where I'm seeing the quill jump.

This isn't a big deal but I'd feel better if I knew why this was happening.  At least then
I'll know how to work around it or fix it maybe by machining a tighter key.


----------



## Sloth2009

fradish said:


> Ok, it isn't the loose dro (thought I'll still have to fix that).
> 
> I think it is slop in key #23.  I think when there is pressure on the key it turns
> the shaft smoothly, but when the key reaches 12 o'clock or 6 the shaft slips by the amount
> of the slop.  I've had hub #18 off once already.  I'll take it off again and mark a dot on the outside
> of the hub in line with the key way and see if that is where I'm seeing the quill jump.
> 
> This isn't a big deal but I'd feel better if I knew why this was happening.  At least then
> I'll know how to work around it or fix it maybe by machining a tighter key.


That makes sense.  If I understand you correctly, the weight and momentum of the handle may cause it to shift on the shaft to take up the slop in the little key.  If you can shim it or make T-shaped key you may have your issue solved. The hub does need to slide over the key though to lock to the worm gear, so dont get it too tight.  See my below post.


----------



## Sloth2009

My particular issue I think is just operator error.  The way I am understanding it, the worm assembly (3) from the fine feed is always engaged to the worm gear (21).  When you tighten the clamp knob it engages the taper on the worm gear and locks it to the hub (18).  The hub itself is locked with the quill pinion shaft (1) with the key [fradish] is talking about. When locked you are able to drive the entire assembly with the fine feed wheel. 

I don't think I have consistsntly locked the hub in hard enough.  I had actually greased it which likely made it worse.  This caused the taper to slip if there was much force on the spindle. Now that I know this, I can watch the outer ring of the worm gear and make sure it is not slipping against the hub when locked.


TheGov said:


> Since this is "the go to thread" on the 727, I've got a note, w/ pic, and a question.
> First the note, drained the gear oil today, again. Got curious, so vacuum filtered it to see the particulates. Oh boy... (see pic for what I mean).
> 
> Now the question ...I changed the oil because I noticed a lot of play up and down on the quill when I use the fine adjustment. Has something gone bad, hence the metal debree? What/where should I look first to resolve the play issue?
> Side note, I'm going to completely flush the gear box this weekend.


There is a lot of backlash in the fine feed worm drive.  Is this what you are seeing?


----------



## fradish

Sloth2009,

Yes, that's what I think is happening.  I also noticed that if I leave the quill lock
a little bit tight, just enough to provide a little friction, the quill doesn't jump as
much.  I think as long as I have a visual indication on the outside of the hub where
the keyway is, I might be able to use the lock to reduce the jumping.  If not, as you
said, maybe milling a new key or even adding brass shim stock in the keyway, possibly
held in with epoxy might eliminate the slop.


----------



## TheGov

Had more time to check some things. The up/down slop is also present in the course feed.  I noticed that with the quill down any amount, if I push up on it, I see the top of the spindle also move up.  (Spindle and drive group).
Looking at the diagram, I see only 2 different possible loose items. 1-(38) Nut: M25, spanner type. 2-(12) Screw: M5x16, ph HD (3).
I wouldn't be surprised if the problem was 2 from above as I have found several screws/bolts in hard to get to places loose. (The slop is also less than 16mm)
Thanks for all the feedback and ideas of other things to check.


----------



## TheGov

Sloth2009 said:


> I got close to that amount of crud in my first (only) oil change.  Have many times you changed it before?
> 
> Looking at the pm-727m's blueprints It appears the coarse/fine feed shaft doesn't go into the gearbox.  It goes below and to the back of the quill where those teeth are cut in the back of it. If you look under the head behind the spindle, you can see where they engage.
> 
> If there is slop up and down on the quill and only during fine feed then there might be an issue with the worm gear engagement.  Maybe the clamp knob is not in tight enough? Gunk in the worm gear?  To me , part (3) and (21) are worth looking at.
> View attachment 232841
> View attachment 232842


As to the oil change, I did one after the initial break in, then this last one after about 20 hrs run time.
In the pic below is the metalic crud stuck to a magnet.


----------



## Sloth2009

TheGov said:


> As to the oil change, I did one after the initial break in, then this last one after about 20 hrs run time.
> In the pic below is the metalic crud stuck to a magnet.


That is a lot of metal for sure.  Is that slop measurement supposed to be 1.6mm?  16mm is over a half inch. Yikes!

This happens when the quill is down.  This makes me think the slop is is the top part of the spindle assembly.  Because the qill is probably holding the spindle in the correct position when it is up. When the quill drops, I think the spindle assembly may be dropping too causing the slop.   If you can confirm that,  I would concentrate between the 2 (3) lock rings.

Does it make a difference with the gear switch in high or low.  How about with spindle lock on?

With slop in the spindle and those metal shavings, I think you will need to look at the meshing gears (7) (8) and and their counterparts (87) and (89) for wear.


----------



## tweinke

I just had a thought based on my 727, I found that on my mill that if you tightened the draw bar pretty tight that the splines of the quill would have a visible wobble. Upon investigation I found that the draw bar did not center in the quill when tight and I noticed that the quill did not travel smoothly. I would think that might have a tendency to force gear 7 to be pulled out of place but I may be all wet on this theory. I made a new drawbar and a washer that centers into the inside of the quill with a shoulder and that has solved my quill travel smoothness issue.


----------



## TheGov

Sloth2009 said:


> That is a lot of metal for sure.  Is that slop measurement supposed to be 1.6mm?  16mm is over a half inch. Yikes!
> 
> This happens when the quill is down.  This makes me think the slop is is the top part of the spindle assembly.  Because the qill is probably holding the spindle in the correct position when it is up. When the quill drops, I think the spindle assembly may be dropping too causing the slop.   If you can confirm that,  I would concentrate between the 2 (3) lock rings.
> 
> 
> View attachment 232917



Sorry, ment 1.6mm.
With the quill lock snug, no play/slop, same with it all the way up.
With the fine feed engaged, quill lock off, the quill and spindle both move the together.
I stuck a bore scope camera in the housing with no oil to see if the shavings were gone, but couldn't get in that far. (7) prevented this. I will have to find the mirrors that go with the borescope and see if I can see the rings mentioned and gears.

Thank you for your help and suggestions.


----------



## Sloth2009

I just went out and replicated the same conditions on my mill.  I was able to get 0.39mm in upward movement on the dro.  I ended up tightening the quill set screw behind the quill lock and was able to get rid of the play.  In doing this the coarse feed became so stiff it would not return on its own.  I put some anti-seize grease on the quill and in the little slot the set screw rides in.  Right now there is no play and quill returns itself to the top position most of the time. I could try to tighten the return spring.  I also wonder if polishing the end of the set screw might help.


----------



## Sloth2009

There are actually 2 set screws in the hole behind the quill lock! A short allen set screw and a longer slotted one.  I took them out and polished up the mating end a bit. Maybe it will help a little.  If I had a lathe I would remake the longer set screw out of something with less friction.

I have a suspicion what I am seeing with the quill slop and possibly what you [TheGov] is seeing is just play in the gear on the back of the quill and the quill pinion shaft (1) that comes out of the coarse/fine feed.  Tightening the quill set screws forces the quill against the shallow end of the splines on (1) taking up any slack.  In the bottom rear of the head you can look through a small gap and see the quill gear teeth.  When the set screw is loose the teeth slip up slightly.  When the set screw tight, this does not happen.  Hopefully that is all it is and not something wrong with your gears.  See what you think.


----------



## TheGov

Sloth2009 said:


> There are actually 2 set screws in the hole behind the quill lock! A short allen set screw and a longer slotted one.  I took them out and polished up the mating end a bit. Maybe it will help a little.  If I had a lathe I would remake the longer set screw out of something with less friction.
> 
> I have a suspicion what I am seeing with the quill slop and possibly what you [TheGov] is seeing is just play in the gear on the back of the quill and the quill pinion shaft (1) that comes out of the coarse/fine feed.  Tightening the quill set screws forces the quill against the shallow end of the splines on (1) taking up any slack.  In the bottom rear of the head you can look through a small gap and see the quill gear teeth.  When the set screw is loose the teeth slip up slightly.  When the set screw tight, this does not happen.  Hopefully that is all it is and not something wrong with your gears.  See what you think.
> View attachment 233038
> View attachment 233039



You are a god my good man! Finally had some time and checked the set screws. I gave the inner screw a little knudge tighter and the slop disappeared.
Cross that issue off the list. Now to run for a bit and check to see if the metal particulates came after the first oil change. (This last oil change I flushed everything much more than the first time).


----------



## Sloth2009

TheGov said:


> You are a god my good man! Finally had some time and checked the set screws. I gave the inner screw a little knudge tighter and the slop disappeared.
> Cross that issue off the list. Now to run for a bit and check to see if the metal particulates came after the first oil change. (This last oil change I flushed everything much more than the first time).


Yay!  Glad it worked.  Hope your gear box is in good shape.


----------



## TheGov

Yeah, me too. 
I think I just didn't get all the crud out the first time as I only drained the oil.
This last time I drained, flushed with some more oil, blew compressed air, flushed, blew again followed by sucking, (with a vacuum necked down to drain plug size).


----------



## Sloth2009

In a earlier post I showed where I hollowed out a sword scabbard with the mill.   Here is result of that project.


----------



## Sloth2009

fradish said:


> Sloth2009,
> 
> Yes, that's what I think is happening.  I also noticed that if I leave the quill lock
> a little bit tight, just enough to provide a little friction, the quill doesn't jump as
> much.  I think as long as I have a visual indication on the outside of the hub where
> the keyway is, I might be able to use the lock to reduce the jumping.  If not, as you
> said, maybe milling a new key or even adding brass shim stock in the keyway, possibly
> held in with epoxy might eliminate the slop.


Any luck in isolating the source of your quill movement?


----------



## fradish

Not really.  The key fits reasonably well in the hub keyway.  There is more slop in the shaft
keyway, but I shimed it a bit and it really made no difference.  It also didn't slip where I thought
it should if it was key slop.

When I have the quill lock on and the coarse feed hub slightly loosened, I can rotate the hub
a very small amount.  This is the key slop.  When I tighten up the coarse feed hub and loosen the
quill lock I can rotate the hub more.  This makes me think there is slop in the fine feed gears.

I tried adjusting the set screws behind the quill lock, but tightening these seemed to make the
drop more abrupt.  I seem to get the smoothest motion from the quill by just leaving the quill
lock slightly engaged.  Some day I may disassemble the fine feed mechanism if this bothers me enough
(Or right before my warranty expires...)


----------



## TheGov

fradish said:


> Not really.  The key fits reasonably well in the hub keyway.  There is more slop in the shaft
> keyway, but I shimed it a bit and it really made no difference.  It also didn't slip where I thought
> it should if it was key slop.
> 
> When I have the quill lock on and the coarse feed hub slightly loosened, I can rotate the hub
> a very small amount.  This is the key slop.  When I tighten up the coarse feed hub and loosen the
> quill lock I can rotate the hub more.  This makes me think there is slop in the fine feed gears.
> 
> I tried adjusting the set screws behind the quill lock, but tightening these seemed to make the
> drop more abrupt.  I seem to get the smoothest motion from the quill by just leaving the quill
> lock slightly engaged.  Some day I may disassemble the fine feed mechanism if this bothers me enough
> (Or right before my warranty expires...)



After tightening the set screw, I experienced simular results.
Wish I would have checked that after uncrating to see if this issue was always there or slowly developed.


----------



## fradish

What I eventually want to do is take off the fine feed gear box.  Once I marked where the
key is, this is simpler as you don't have to worry about the key falling out on you, but even
if you don't mark it, you can loosen the quill lock and raise or lower the quill by hand until 
the key slot is pointing up.

I don't think it would be difficult to take off the fine feed gearbox.  I think once you get
the coarse feed hub off you just need to remove a snap ring, then remove the 3 bolts holding
it on and I think it will slip off.   What I would be interested in seeing is if there is a damaged
tooth on the worm gear.  In any event, I have found that just keeping the quill lock on just
a little bit seems to eliminate, or at least greatly reduce the dropping I was seeing.  So at the
moment, I'm not in a huge hurry to tear into this, because today I have a working mill with
an annoyance, but if I tear into it, I might not have a working mill...  

Why snugging up the set screws doesn't seem to do the same thing for me as the quill lock, 
I don't know...  Though as Sloth2009 mentioned, maybe the long set screw is too sticky/grabby.  
Maybe if the inner set screw had a nylon or brass bearing surface, maybe it would slide more smoothly.
I haven't tried his trick of polishing the end of the inner screw.


----------



## TheGov

I did polish the inner set screw's face, but without doing the slot it rides in. So now the slop is reduced, but there are some spots in the quill assembly travel that are sticky.


----------



## Sloth2009

fradish said:


> What I eventually want to do is take off the fine feed gear box.  Once I marked where the
> key is, this is simpler as you don't have to worry about the key falling out on you, but even
> if you don't mark it, you can loosen the quill lock and raise or lower the quill by hand until
> the key slot is pointing up.
> 
> I don't think it would be difficult to take off the fine feed gearbox.  I think once you get
> the coarse feed hub off you just need to remove a snap ring, then remove the 3 bolts holding
> it on and I think it will slip off.   What I would be interested in seeing is if there is a damaged
> tooth on the worm gear.  In any event, I have found that just keeping the quill lock on just
> a little bit seems to eliminate, or at least greatly reduce the dropping I was seeing.  So at the
> moment, I'm not in a huge hurry to tear into this, because today I have a working mill with
> an annoyance, but if I tear into it, I might not have a working mill...
> 
> Why snugging up the set screws doesn't seem to do the same thing for me as the quill lock,
> I don't know...  Though as Sloth2009 mentioned, maybe the long set screw is too sticky/grabby.
> Maybe if the inner set screw had a nylon or brass bearing surface, maybe it would slide more smoothly.
> I haven't tried his trick of polishing the end of the inner screw.


I polished up a piece of 1/4" brass rod I had and cut off about 3/8" of it and put it in front of the set screw.  It works just as good or better for me as polishing the actual set screw did.  5/16" or slightly bigger would fit the hole better if you have some or have a lathe.  Or just remake the whole set screw.   Maybe try a piece of delrin plastic.  Its always touted as low friction and self lubricating.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FN15K6/ref=biss_dp_t_asn


----------



## Sloth2009

Found another little tweak.  My quill lock tightens at about one o'clock for me.  To loosen fully it, the handle ends up going half way around pointing down due to gravity.  This ends up being a bit too loose in my opinion.  I dug around in my parts box until I found a couple washers and played with them until I got a combination I like.  Now it tightens at about eight o'clock and still is fully loose with the handle straight down.


----------



## Sloth2009

fradish said:


> When I tighten up the coarse feed hub and loosen the
> quill lock I can rotate the hub more.  This makes me think there is slop in the fine feed gears.


I'm trying to replicate this on my machine.  When you see your drop issue, your fine is feed engaged and the quill lock is not engaged?  How are you producing the movement and where do you notice it?  I did find something similar in the new manual.  Do you think this is the same thing?


----------



## Sloth2009

fradish said:


> With my PM727 I have occasionally had an issue with the fine feed where I'll be watching the DRO and turning the
> wheel and nothing seems to happen, then the quill just seems to jump maybe 10 thousandths rather than smoothly
> moving.  I had thought that possibly I had not cleaned off the outer barrel of the quill enough or lubricated it
> enough or maybe even that I didn't have the quill lock loosened sufficiently and this was causing the quill to stick.
> 
> At this moment I have not been able to narrow it down to what is causing it.  What I can say is that when I
> received the mill the downfeed housing (#2 in the diagram above) was loose and I had to tighten up the bolts (#22). Maybe I need to dig into the downfeed and check the gears that Sloth2009 pointed out.  I would hope that I don't
> have a missing tooth on #21, but that might also explain what I am seeing, thought I mainly see this between cuts
> as I release the quill lock and make depth changes, so maybe I'm just not loosening the quill lock enough.
> 
> I'll just have to play around with it some more and see if I can consistently reproduce the issue and if so, figure out
> what it causing it.


Well, I think I figured something out.  Lock in the hub so fine feed is engaged.  Bring the fine feed down a few turns and then reverse it and note the amount of backlash.  Mine was nearly half a rotation.

Slightly loosen the 3 bolts holding on the fine feed housing.
Then push or lightly tap the housing down with a rubber mallet.  Retighten screws then determine the fine feed backlash again. Mine was way better and slightly too tight.  I had to loosen the bolts and readjust again.  Made a huge difference.  I bet most of us have pulled up on the feed housing during unpacking and setup.  I think it just needs a little adjustment to get the worm gears back to meshing correctly.  See what you think.


----------



## fradish

I'll have to try adjusting the fine feed housing over the weekend.  When I got my PM727 the
FF housing was loose.  I tightened it up and after making sure that nothing was binding.  I have
tried to loosen and shift the housing forward and backwards, then tightening up on the screws,
but I didn't go about it methodically and didn't notice any difference from my adhoc adjustments.

I'll give that a try and will probably also order a piece of delrin for under the quill set screw.  I've been
meaning to for some time, but just never had a project for which I needed any.  Now I do!

I don't know where my quill lock lever ends up when loose but still slightly snug, but it must be
somewhere where gravity is working for me because I was able to keep this slightly snug.

I think someday before too long I am going to dissassemble the fine feed gear box just to look
at the worm gear.  Without seeing anything, it sort of feels like one of the teeth on the worm gear
might be damaged, but I'm really just guessing at this point.  Doing the FF housing adjustment
and the delrin shoe seem like good next steps to take in any event, so I'll probably do those first,
but eventually I think I might have to take the FF apart and visually inspect the gears.


----------



## fradish

Sloth2009 said:


> I'm trying to replicate this on my machine. When you see your drop issue, your fine is feed engaged and the quill lock is not engaged? How are you producing the movement and where do you notice it? I did find something similar in the new manual. Do you think this is the same thing?



So the drop I am seeing is when the FF is engaged (#4 is tight, binding #1 to #3) and the quill lock is completely
loose.  I don't see it all of the time.  The best explanation of what I feel when lowering the quill (only when lowering)
would be if the worm gear was missing a tooth and the quill dropped a small amount.  I suppose it could also be
that the quill is catching on the set screw a bit and instead of the quill dropping smoothly it hangs a bit then
drops suddenly.  Maybe there is a rough spot on the quill where the set screw rides?
The drop is not a huge amount, but it happens.

What I really need to do is to be much more methodical about characterizing this.  I have marked where the
keyway is on the outside of hub #1, so I can raise the quill as high as it will go and record over multiple
tries where I encounter this drop (like the keyway mark is at 3 o'clock on the first revolution of the FF and
9 o'clock on the second.)  Having this information might help identify if this seems like a gearing issue or
maybe it is an issue with the set screws...

I just need to find time to do this...


----------



## Sloth2009

Ordered some delrin to make a plug to go in front of the set screw.  Will let you know how it works.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200883598650

I also found some nylon faced set screws.   Double check the tread pitch though.  I just flagged the first one I saw.


https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/64828874


----------



## fradish

Short answer, it might have just needed grease!

I seem to have either fixed my problem or reduced it to the point
where it is undetectable.  I took off the fine feed gear box (not that big of a deal)
just watch the key and spring.   There is a snap ring that was a little stiff, but once
that was off the worm gear slid off.

The worm and worm gear both looked pristine.
No broken teeth or burrs.  There was however a blob of grease off to the side of
the track in which the worm and gear meshed.  I spread that out and added some
more until all of the teeth of the worm gear had a light even coating of grease.

I then greased the bore of the worm gear and the worm itself.  I put it back together 
and there was still a bit of a drop!  It was smoother, but not fixed.  Since I had the grease out
I greased the rack on the back of the spindle, a light coating all over the spindle and a little
in the groove where the set screw rides.  After working the feed up and down a few times, I could
no longer detect a drop.

Though I'm glad I greased up the worm gear, I don't think that was necessary.  I think something 
in the spindle was just sticking.


----------



## Sloth2009

fradish said:


> Short answer, it might have just needed grease!
> 
> I seem to have either fixed my problem or reduced it to the point
> where it is undetectable.  I took off the fine feed gear box (not that big of a deal)
> just watch the key and spring.   There is a snap ring that was a little stiff, but once
> that was off the worm gear slid off.
> 
> The worm and worm gear both looked pristine.
> No broken teeth or burrs.  There was however a blob of grease off to the side of
> the track in which the worm and gear meshed.  I spread that out and added some
> more until all of the teeth of the worm gear had a light even coating of grease.
> 
> I then greased the bore of the worm gear and the worm itself.  I put it back together
> and there was still a bit of a drop!  It was smoother, but not fixed.  Since I had the grease out
> I greased the rack on the back of the spindle, a light coating all over the spindle and a little
> in the groove where the set screw rides.  After working the feed up and down a few times, I could
> no longer detect a drop.
> 
> Though I'm glad I greased up the worm gear, I don't think that was necessary.  I think something
> in the spindle was just sticking.


I think most of the issues we have run across with the quill feed have been related to how the gears from the quill pinion shaft and the gear teeth on the back of the column mesh together.  Keeping the set screws tight and sliding smoothly plus keeping the gears clean and lubed seem to be the best answers for us.  Glad you solved your issue!


----------



## Sloth2009

I used the mill to hollow out the micarta handle for this little hatchet.  I had most of the hatchet finished before I got the mill.  If I ever make another one, I will use the mill to slot in the gas shut off wrench on the handle instead of forging it in.  A fireman friend asked me to make it for him to take on safety checks.


----------



## Sloth2009

Got the 5/16" delrin in today.  Its a nice sliding fit in the set screw hole and in the column slot.  I just made a little plug like I did out of the brass.  Its definately a big improvement over the stock set screw.


----------



## Sloth2009

Finally made some tram aids.  Split the 2" CR stock down the middle then used a 3/4" end mill to square up the band sawed sides.  I drilled and counterbored the holes for the cap screws.  Then drilled and threaded the other holes.  Also painted them to match the mill.


----------



## fradish

That is so weird, I had thought of making something very much like that for my mill.
I never built it, but what you've built is pretty much what I was thinking of.
I'm a little hesitant to drill into my mill, so I was going to see if I could just
use a bar clamp down from the top.  But I always thought having screw adjusters
would be better than tapping with a dead blow.

So, does it make tramming easier and more precise?

Good Job!  Looks very professional.


----------



## Sloth2009

fradish said:


> That is so weird, I had thought of making something very much like that for my mill.
> I never built it, but what you've built is pretty much what I was thinking of.
> I'm a little hesitant to drill into my mill, so I was going to see if I could just
> use a bar clamp down from the top.  But I always though having screw adjusters
> would be better than tapping with a dead blow.
> 
> So, does it make tramming easier and more precise?
> 
> Good Job!  Looks very professional.


Thanks!  My machine should still be trammed in from the epoxy tram, so I haven't used them yet.  From what I've read, these screw style tram aids work very well for fine tuning in the head swing.  If you decide to make some be careful on the left side of the head when your drill pilot hole since the gib and gib screws  are on that side.  I tapped the head 1/4-20 for the mounting bolts and the bracket 3/8-16 for the set screw.


----------



## Sloth2009

Made a Japanese style forging hammer hardened to about 50 RWC.  Its for me so didn't try to make it too pretty.


----------



## Sloth2009

My x-axis power feed came in today from PM.  It is a ALSGS ALB-310s and specs to 450 inch lbs.   It was $295 shipped from PM.  You can find it cheaper elsewhere, but I wanted to by from them for their customer service.  These power feeds install horizontally on the PM-727m which is a bit awkward because it takes up more floorspace.  I haven't seen one that sits vertically on this type of mill, but there may be one out there.  Some of you may want to see what installation entails.  I will post a few more pics when get some time to put it on.


----------



## TheGov

That's one nice power feed. At times, after cranking, Ive been tempted to even hook up a cordless drill just to give the arms a rest.

After reading about the delrin, had to dig through the moving boxes and found a stick. Once I get some time I'll have to impliment it.


----------



## Sloth2009

The directions that came with the new power feed are the usual lost in translation Chinese variety, so expect a bit of head scratching.  The installation wasn't hard, but there are a few things of note.

The motor mounting bracket comes in two parts.  One that clamps to the table with 2 bolts and one that mounts on the motor housing with 2 bolts.  They are also joined together by 2 more bolts.  The different bolts allow adjustability in how the motor pinion gear and the bevel gear that installs on the x-axis mesh up.  It may take some fine tuning to get the gears running smooth.

You will need to get 2 mounting bolts then drill and tap holes to mount the limit switch.  The little T-slot nuts that anchor the switch stops are slightly too big for the PM-727m and need sanded or filed down a bit.  Also I find the stops snag up on my "upgraded" locking knobs, so I may have to go back to the original levers.

I do wish the power led was brighter as it is really hard to see.  Otherwise I'm happy with how the how the power feed works.  The speed control and transmission lever work great.  Now I just need to use it to make some chips.


----------



## Sloth2009

Sold the hatchet I made and bought a 13 piece collet set.  My R8 tooling now almost fills up the rack.


----------



## darkzero

Sloth2009 said:


> I do wish the power led was brighter as it is really hard to see.



My thought too. Without thinking about it, I thought it was an LED also but it's actually a neon bulb. You can always do what I did (or similar). Post 65 .


----------



## Sloth2009

darkzero said:


> My thought too. Without thinking about it, I thought it was an LED also but it's actually a neon bulb. You can always do what I did (or similar). Post 65 .


Nice!  I have built Led drivers before but its been quite some time.  If it annoys me enough, I will follow your lead and upgrade the light.


----------



## Sloth2009

Squaring off the sawed edges of some 4140 for a project.


----------



## Lefty Turner

Sloth2009 said:


> Squaring off the sawed edges of some 4140 for a project.


Nice job on the install for the power feed.  Is the ball oiler on the left end of your x-axis lead screw now inaccessible for oiling the support bearing.  Looks like it could be a challenge.  Just curious.

Lefty


----------



## Sloth2009

Lefty Turner said:


> Nice job on the install for the power feed.  Is the ball oiler on the left end of your x-axis lead screw now inaccessible for oiling the support bearing.  Looks like it could be a challenge.  Just curious.
> 
> Lefty


Yes it does get covered.  You can remove the power feed off the table fairly easily by losening 2 bolts.  I would have to look at it closer, but I suppose you could look at drilling an access hole in the mounting bracket so the feed could be kept in place.


----------



## Sloth2009

Been busy for a few weeks and haven't done much milling.  Today I made a "screwy ball" out of a 1" ball bearing.  I saw a few videos online where people used them to help hold non-square workpieces up against the fixed jaw.  I just got this little machinist vise and used it and some nuts for the setup.  I ground a flat in the ball with my belt sander to save some time and then made some passes with my carbide face mill.  It turned out pretty nice.


----------



## Sloth2009

This is the most complicated machining I have done so far.  It is a part I designed and built for my knife grinder.  It has 22 holes, some are threaded, 14 of them are counterbored for hex bolts.  There is an adapter plate between 2 roller bearing blocks, and the top work surface.  The work surface has an adjustable stop at one end.  Now I need to do some testing to see if anything needs to be changed.


----------



## Sloth2009

Been watching a lot of Stefan Gotteswinter's youtube channel lately.  On smaller workpieces he uses a copper drift to set the piece in the milling vise instead of a hammer.  I decided to order a piece of 3/4" copper off of Ebay and make one for myself.  I made one piece into a drift like he uses and installed a small handle in another to make a small hammer.  I will see how I like them.


----------



## 9t8z28

I have an X2 mill with solid column and I get movement when pushing or pulling on the column.   I thought this flex would not exist on the PM but I guess some is going to be expected.   The PM spindle head is very heavy and to overcome any flex would require a much larger column and mounting surface.   How hard are you pulling or pushing on the column ?   Can you get movement by using two fingers lightly pressing or your entire hand is pulling down or pushing ?


----------



## Sloth2009

9t8z28 said:


> I have an X2 mill with solid column and I get movement when pushing or pulling on the column.   I thought this flex would not exist on the PM but I guess some is going to be expected.   The PM spindle head is very heavy and to overcome any flex would require a much larger column and mounting surface.   How hard are you pulling or pushing on the column ?   Can you get movement by using two fingers lightly pressing or your entire hand is pulling down or pushing ?


I was pulling and pushing fairly hard.  Probably over 80lbs of force.  Matt from PM said he has seen this in very large mills as well.   I am now of the mind that flex of the column in the y direction probably is not that critical.  I don't think side milling should apply a lot of force in that direction.  Drilling or plunging may but often don't need to be as accurate.  I have never measured the flex of my column in the x direction, but I think that would make a bigger difference in milling accuracy.  BTW There are several good writeups on reinforcing your specific mill.   I think this mill might be an x2...
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/grizzly-g0619-column-stiffening.57540/


----------



## 9t8z28

Sloth2009 said:


> I was pulling and pushing fairly hard.  Probably over 80lbs of force.  Matt from PM said he has seen this in very large mills as well.   I am now of the mind that flex of the column in the y direction probably is not that critical.  I don't think side milling should apply a lot of force in that direction.  Drilling or plunging may but often don't need to be as accurate.  I have never measured the flex of my column in the x direction, but I think that would make a bigger difference in milling accuracy.  BTW There are several good writeups on reinforcing your specific mill.   I think this mill might be an x2...
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/grizzly-g0619-column-stiffening.57540/


Thats not the same machine at all.  I think its a grade above mine but thank you.  My machine has an hollow rectangular boxed column with a 2" riser block to give me 13" between the spindle and table.  The column mounts to the base in the same fashion as your PM-727.   It flexes about .002-.003" with light pressure from 2 fingers.  If I yank on it real hard it will probably cut .010" !  but I can still side mill and plunge mill on mild steel but at low doc.


----------



## BFHammer

Sloth2009 said:


> Been watching a lot of Stefan Gotteswinter's youtube channel lately.  On smaller workpieces he uses a copper drift to set the piece in the milling vise instead of a hammer.  I decided to order a piece of 3/4" copper off of Ebay and make one for myself.  I made one piece into a drift like he uses and installed a small handle in another to make a small hammer.  I will see how I like them.



Sloth,

Love the hammer that you made.  I really like the contrast with the copper - can you tell me what did on the lower part to get the black finish.  Is it blueing or just a good coat of that black sharpie in the picture? 

Thanks!


----------



## 9t8z28

Wow I thought the Diamant would be way more expensive!  I too watched Stefan's video and wanted to try this product. Your the first person I have heard mention using it and posting in the forums.  I went to the link for Diamant that Stefan posted and of course I got lost.  When I go to order do I just tell them I need 50 gram kit of DWH 310 FL:  $13.00 ?  Is the release agent Icheard others discussing available from them as well?  
The syringe looks to be a standard syringe?  I am pretty sure I have one or 2 laying around.  
You stated you used all 50 grams of the DWH.  My mill column and base mount the same way but its just a little smaller.  Do you think the 50 g's is enough?  
Sorry for all the questions.  I will be doing this to my X2 and then when I get my PM-25 .  


Sloth2009 said:


> I believe I ordered the same product Stefan Gotteswinter uses in his youtube video on epoxy tramming.  In the US, you have to call Devitt Machinery Co. to place an order.  Devitt appears to be the only US distributer for Diamant products.  Ordering was quick and painless.  I will see how the epoxy works when it comes in.
> 
> Devitt Phone:  1 (877) 368-1528
> 
> I ordered:
> 50 gram kit of DWH 310 FL:  $13.00
> 50 gram injector:  $2.50


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## Sloth2009

BFHammer said:


> Sloth,
> 
> Love the hammer that you made.  I really like the contrast with the copper - can you tell me what did on the lower part to get the black finish.  Is it blueing or just a good coat of that black sharpie in the picture?
> 
> Thanks!


I cheated on the handle as I don't have a lathe.  I stole the handle off a cheap plastic faced hammer from a small punch set.  The black is just the way it came in the box.  I dinged the finish up on the narrow part so just cleaned it up with sandpaper.  I have done hot bluing before with sodium nitrate and lye.  The finish can turn out extremely nice, but its a bit of a pain.  Here is the website I followed to do it.
http://www.blindhogg.com/homemadesalts.html

Here is a picture of the first knife I blued.


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## Sloth2009

9t8z28 said:


> Wow I thought the Diamant would be way more expensive!  I too watched Stefan's video and wanted to try this product. Your the first person I have heard mention using it and posting in the forums.  I went to the link for Diamant that Stefan posted and of course I got lost.  When I go to order do I just tell them I need 50 gram kit of DWH 310 FL:  $13.00 ?  Is the release agent Icheard others discussing available from them as well?
> The syringe looks to be a standard syringe?  I am pretty sure I have one or 2 laying around.
> You stated you used all 50 grams of the DWH.  My mill column and base mount the same way but its just a little smaller.  Do you think the 50 g's is enough?
> Sorry for all the questions.  I will be doing this to my X2 and then when I get my PM-25 .


I used 2 of the 50 gram kits.  I will post the price list I had from earlier this year.  They also give calculations on it to figure out about how much you will need for your application.  There is also some release agent listed on the form.  The 50 gram cans are not on the list, but you can ask for them when you call.  The ordering was pretty easy over the phone.  You can also get a 100 gram can for about $20.  The syringes are nothing special, but since there is a limited pot life you want to be able to fit what you need in a syringe or two to save time.   You can buy some even bigger syringes for administering oral meds to horses and such at ranch supply stores.


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## Sloth2009

9t8z28 said:


> Thats not the same machine at all.  I think its a grade above mine but thank you.  My machine has an hollow rectangular boxed column with a 2" riser block to give me 13" between the spindle and table.  The column mounts to the base in the same fashion as your PM-727.   It flexes about .002-.003" with light pressure from 2 fingers.  If I yank on it real hard it will probably cut .010" !  but I can still side mill and plunge mill on mild steel but at low doc.


Here are a couple sites for the x2 column stiffening.  Not sure if this is the same type of column as yours.

http://www.hossmachine.info/Shop_Info.html#x2 column

https://lanzerbot.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/stiffening-the-vertical-column-on-the-x2-mill/


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## Sloth2009

Quick and easy work stop...

I was thinking about buying or making a work stop for the milling vise.  I finally remembered I have an unused magnetic base that came with a grizzly dial indicator I bought some time ago.   I wish I wouldn't forget half the stuff I already own!   I cut off a piece of hardened 3/8" shafting to use as the adjustable sliding stop.

Seems like it will make a pretty usefull little tool.  Mine is a Chinese mag base.  You can buy a similar American made Mighty Mag on Amazon or Ebay for around $16.  The Chinese ones can be found for about $10-$12.


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## 9t8z28

Sloth2009 said:


> Here are a couple sites for the x2 column stiffening.  Not sure if this is the same type of column as yours.
> 
> http://www.hossmachine.info/Shop_Info.html#x2 column
> 
> https://lanzerbot.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/stiffening-the-vertical-column-on-the-x2-mill/


 They are the same machine but the difference is they have a tilting column.  Mine has a solid column that mounts like your PM with 4 bolts.  The tilting column has a large bolt that the column pivots on.  I have had both setups and the solid column is far better but still not perfect.  Thanks for looking tho


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## Sloth2009

Got some money for my birthday.  I decided to buy this set of 5-flute carbide end mills with it.  I am looking forward to making some chips with them.


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## navav2002

I have looked at those Kodiak endmills but have not taken the plunge...Would be interested in a review once you have tried them out...


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## Sloth2009

I haven’t used a lot of end mills in my short time with a mill.  I had some 2 flute HSS end mills from Little Machine Shop and they were virtually unusable on my machine.  They didn’t cut well even in brass and would nearly shake my machine apart when side milling.  I have some ball nose 4 flute carbide end mills from Kodiak and have liked them so far.  I like these new 5 flute carbide end mills even better.  They cut like butter and have impart little vibration into the machine.  So far I would have no problem recommending them.


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## wrmiller

I found that the smaller mills will perform better with better quality end mills. And I fell in love with roughing (both coarse and fine) end mills as they can literally 'hog' material without shaking the machine to death. If need be, I would follow rougher cuts with a traditional end mill for a better finish on external surfaces.


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## Sloth2009

wrmiller said:


> I found that the smaller mills will perform better with better quality end mills. And I fell in love with roughing (both coarse and fine) end mills as they can literally 'hog' material without shaking the machine to death. If need be, I would follow rougher cuts with a traditional end mill for a better finish on external surfaces.


Any particular brands/sources you favor?


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## wrmiller

Not really. I looked on Ebay a lot and bought US made end mills when I could afford them. Carbide and cobalt mostly as they seem to last longer.


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## Sloth2009

Bought a shars 3” boring head and and HHIP indexible carbide insert boring bar.  The boring head is supposed to be a bit better than most import heads.  It is fully nickel plated and the lead screw is supposed to have less backlash than most.  I used it to bore some id and od steel on some steel tubing so they all slide together along with a bronze bushing and steel shaft.  Overall the machining went smooth for my first boring job.  The surface finish was rough on some cuts most likely due to poor downfeed speed control on my behalf.  I think I may loctite the removable R8 shank onto the head as it is hard to keep tight.


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## Bob Korves

You can use a much larger diameter boring bar in that big of a hole, and will have more success with surface finish and with finishing to the desired size.


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## Sloth2009

Bob Korves said:


> You can use a much larger diameter boring bar in that big of a hole, and will have more success with surface finish and with finishing to the desired size.


 I think I will get one from Mesa Tools.  American made and reasonably priced.


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## Bob Korves

It is not so much that it is American or Chinese.  Steel is steel, and it all has essentially the same stiffness, regardless of grade or hardness.  If you want stiffer boring bars, you need to go bigger or go to carbide, which has a higher elastic modulus.  Bigger is lots cheaper than carbide, and the hole in your pic shows room for a much bigger boring bar.  Obviously, that is just the cutting tool I am speaking of.  If there is flexibility or play in the machine or the boring head or the setup, it will cause much the same problems.


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## Sloth2009

This project will eventually be an offset cam using pieces of steel tubing and a bronze sleeve bearing.  The plan is for the cam to actuate a sledge hammer in a homade power hammer design.  There are cam hammer designs online which typically use a large ball bearing with an off center shaft or a wooden spiral cam.  I decided to design this cam a bit different because I belive it will be more robust and easier to repair and modify than others I have seen.  I can also cut the cam “to length” as I see fit.

Today I drilled then bored the solid shaft with an off center hole which will provide 1.25” of total throw.  I also drilled and tapped some holes for some 1/4-20 set screws.  The 2 1/2” solid shaft slides over a 3/4” keyed shaft which will be eventually driven via a drill motor and some v-belt pulleys.


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## Sloth2009

Bob Korves said:


> It is not so much that it is American or Chinese.  Steel is steel, and it all has essentially the same stiffness, regardless of grade or hardness.  If you want stiffer boring bars, you need to go bigger or go to carbide, which has a higher elastic modulus.  Bigger is lots cheaper than carbide, and the hole in your pic shows room for a much bigger boring bar.  Obviously, that is just the cutting tool I am speaking of.  If there is flexibility or play in the machine or the boring head or the setup, it will cause much the same problems.


This is the one I am looking at from Mesa.


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## Bob Korves

Sloth2009 said:


> This is the one I am looking at from Mesa.
> View attachment 246486


I am not familiar with that boring bar and do not know the tool shank capacity of the boring head.  If it is 3/4", then you would be gaining all you can by increasing the bar diameter, short of cutting down the shank of an even bigger one to fit the boring head.  Length is also an issue.  Any excess length length sticking out beyond what is needed to go through the bore of the work diminishes rigidity.  I often run boring bars to within 1/4" or less of hitting the boring head, QCTP, or whatever is holding the bar.  It makes a big difference in cutting ability, lack of chatter, and being able to finish to size without a bunch of spring passes that can easily go oversize.


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