# Can hobby machinists make punch and die combos?Are gig posts allowed?



## Inferno (Jun 15, 2020)

I see we have a no selling for leechers (such as myself) which is totally cool. I can see why that is and respect that. 
Aside from that question...

Can the general hobby machinist create a punch and die in a  3"X1" oval shape (think hand holds for a packing carton) that's capable of going through .050 chipboard? Would it need to be heat treated to last 500,000 cycles?


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## markba633csi (Jun 15, 2020)

You'd most likely need a cnc machine and yes you would need to heat treat
-Mark


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## Mitch Alsup (Jun 15, 2020)

You are going to need to make it out of something like 4140 and then heat treat it very well. {or other hardenable tool steels}

If you are going to need 500,000 cycles, you should be able to afford for a tool maker to make it properly.


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## Inferno (Jun 15, 2020)

Mitch Alsup said:


> You are going to need to make it out of something like 4140 and then heat treat it very well. {or other hardenable tool steels}
> 
> If you are going to need 500,000 cycles, you should be able to afford for a tool maker to make it properly.


There's where the catch is. 
I'm trying to sell someone on the idea of using a punch and die for a project but since they haven't committed, it's hard for me to justify cashing out of my own pocket for a proper channel-made punch and die combo (not to mention that I have absolutely no idea where to get them made proper either).


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## jmkasunich (Jun 15, 2020)

Inferno said:


> There's where the catch is.
> I'm trying to sell someone on the idea of using a punch and die for a project but since they haven't committed, it's hard for me to justify cashing out of my own pocket for a proper channel-made punch and die combo (not to mention that I have absolutely no idea where to get them made proper either).



Make something "quick and dirty", and if it wears out after 20,000 hits they should have earned enough money to have a real toolmaker do another one for the rest of the run.

O1 (oil-hardening tool steel) is usually available as ground flat stock and is quite machinable in the unhardened state.  And a 1x3 piece isn't too big to be able to harden in the home shop if you can get a couple firebricks and an oxy-fuel torch.  (Might be able to use propane torch if you can make a mini-oven from firebricks to retain the heat.)


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## whitmore (Jun 15, 2020)

Inferno said:


> Can the general hobby machinist create a punch and die in a  3"X1" oval shape (think hand holds for a packing carton) that's capable of going through .050 chipboard? Would it need to be heat treated to last 500,000 cycles?


For most uses, one wouldn't use a punch/die combination, but a simpler steel rule die (which can be produced with
ease with inexpensive materials).   Like you see here steel rule die video.


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## Inferno (Jun 15, 2020)

whitmore said:


> For most uses, one wouldn't use a punch/die combination, but a simpler steel rule die (which can be produced with
> ease with inexpensive materials).   Like you see here steel rule die video.


I'm from the printing industry so I know of what you speak. The company I work at has well over 1,000 steel rule dies on the racks. (I'm also an expert level diecutter by trade)
That is definitely an option that I've considered and for the prototype demo it "could" work. That would be the quick and dirty method JMK mentioned above. 
We normally use a punch for this type of thing to avoid the "stripping" of the leftover material. On our in-house diecutter we have a stripper built in but the product that needs the holes won't be flat at all.
The die to make it a diecut piece is only about $40.

The other disadvantage to the diecut method is you need a perfect plane to strike on or the die will either not cut through or be toast in a few hits.
With a pneumatic cylinder design it's difficult to get that perfect hit time after time.

Great suggestion though.


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## hman (Jun 15, 2020)

Inferno -

You mention "The other disadvantage to the diecut method is you need a perfect plane to strike on or the die will either not cut through or be toast in a few hits."  If, on the other hand, you went with a punch and die, you'd need a perfectly aligned holder for the die.  And I'd be willing to bet that a backing plate and support structure for a steel rule die would be simpler and weigh less than one for the mating die of a punch.

"With a pneumatic cylinder design it's difficult to get that perfect hit time after time."  I've worked with steel rule dies on occasion, and found that, as long as the air supply, valves, tubing and cylinder diameter are correctly sized, an air cylinder works just fine.  And again, you should consider what kind of "driving" hardware a punch-and-die would require.

Bottom line - If it were my task, I'd most likely choose a steel rule die.  That said, there's no way I can know of all the other parameters and restrictions you have to deal with.


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## BGHansen (Jun 15, 2020)

For 0.050" chipboard I'd look at using a steel rule die.  The stock is like a band saw blade with a razor sharp edge.  The carrier can be as simple as a block of wood with the oval shape routed in place.  Then VERY carefully slip the razor-sharp steel rule in place - it will need to be cut to length or you may get away with an overlap.  

My uncle Roger Hansen started the company www.displaypack.com in Grand Rapids, MI back in 1967.  They did lots of steel rule dies for cutting cardboard packaging.  One of his accounts back in the day before the world economy was Mattel's Hot Wheels cars.  He didn't die cast them, he printed the cardboard hang display cards and did the blister pack.  The steel rule die room was given the unofficial name of "100 Michigan Avenue" which was the address of Butterworth Hospital.  Invariably, someone would slice their hands on those knives.  They might not last 500,000 hits, but a 3' length of the stock is under $30.

Google "steel rule die" and you'll see lots of hits and sites for info.  Back in the day, I was the development engineer for the instrument panel of the 1991 Chevy Cavalier.  We had a radio delete option and needed to plug the speaker holes in the dash.  We used a steel rule die to cut a piece of cardboard with a couple of tabs (same footprint as the speaker) that was screwed to the dash.  The supplier was "Unique Fabricating" out of the Detroit area.  The steel rule die for the speaker cover was $250.  But that was 30 years ago.  Just Google'd them, they're still in business.

Bruce


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## Inferno (Jun 15, 2020)

hman said:


> Inferno -
> 
> You mention "The other disadvantage to the diecut method is you need a perfect plane to strike on or the die will either not cut through or be toast in a few hits."  If, on the other hand, you went with a punch and die, you'd need a perfectly aligned holder for the die.  And I'd be willing to bet that a backing plate and support structure for a steel rule die would be simpler and weigh less than one for the mating die of a punch.
> 
> ...


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## Inferno (Jun 15, 2020)

BGHansen said:


> For 0.050" chipboard I'd look at using a steel rule die.  The stock is like a band saw blade with a razor sharp edge.  The carrier can be as simple as a block of wood with the oval shape routed in place.  Then VERY carefully slip the razor-sharp steel rule in place - it will need to be cut to length or you may get away with an overlap.
> 
> My uncle Roger Hansen started the company www.displaypack.com in Grand Rapids, MI back in 1967.  They did lots of steel rule dies for cutting cardboard packaging.  One of his accounts back in the day before the world economy was Mattel's Hot Wheels cars.  He didn't die cast them, he printed the cardboard hang display cards and did the blister pack.  The steel rule die room was given the unofficial name of "100 Michigan Avenue" which was the address of Butterworth Hospital.  Invariably, someone would slice their hands on those knives.  They might not last 500,000 hits, but a 3' length of the stock is under $30.
> 
> ...


I have left more blood on steel rule dies than I care to think about. You learn, after a while, that they might as well be razor blades. No, they're not as sharp but they make up for that in rigidity. When held in place in a wood base, your shin gives long before the blade ever will. 

I work with a couple printing die makers and know a couple more. I could probably even get one made for a favor but, as I said earlier, it wouldn't cost more than $40 to have one made. 
Heck, I could wait til I'm done making my CNC machine and do it myself.  LOL

Your story of your uncle reminds me of one of my own. 
A few years ago a Heidelberg Windmill came into the shop I worked at. I was the resident diecutter expert so I took a look at the machine. It hadn't run in over 40 years and had the ONLY die it had ever run still in the chase. The machine was bought brand new to do one project, over and over and over. A guy made fishing lures and figured it would be cheaper to die cut his lure holder to sell than to keep paying someone else to do it. 
An even more interesting tidbit was that it was the oldest Heidelberg, known to still be in operation, in the United States. A true museum piece. It ran like it was new because essentially, it was. 

It hasn't run a single day since I left that company. So, in all actuality. the machine was only run by two people EVER in 60 years.


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## rzw0wr (Jun 15, 2020)

I worked about 40 years as a die maker for an auto maker.

500,000 hits on chipboard is going to be rough on any steel.

S7, E3 or even D2 or any other air hardening steel might work for awhile.
Trim edges are the most fragile part of a die.

They wear pretty fast.

Steel rule dies are great, we used to make them for temporary and prototype pieces.
Rubber, trim steels and good plywood.
The steel is not the best or very hard.

Don't expect it to last very long. Maybe a couple of thousand hits.

BTW, any cutting die need guide pins. Either Slide bushings or roller.


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## Nutfarmer (Jun 16, 2020)

It is amazing the level of expertise that can be found in this group.


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## jmkasunich (Jun 17, 2020)

Inferno said:


> A few years ago a Heidelberg Windmill came into the shop I worked at. I was the resident diecutter expert so I took a look at the machine. It hadn't run in over 40 years and had the ONLY die it had ever run still in the chase. The machine was bought brand new to do one project, over and over and over. A guy made fishing lures and figured it would be cheaper to die cut his lure holder to sell than to keep paying someone else to do it.
> An even more interesting tidbit was that it was the oldest Heidelberg, known to still be in operation, in the United States. A true museum piece. It ran like it was new because essentially, it was.
> 
> It hasn't run a single day since I left that company. So, in all actuality. the machine was only run by two people EVER in 60 years.



Inferno:

I know a guy who has two Heidelberg Windmills and is starting up a small high-end printing company.  (Wedding invites and the like.)  He has quite a bit of knowledge about using them - worked for years at his father's printing company in the old country.  Father died, and he had to move and start over.

I know nothing about printing, but he was showing me the machines and they are fascinating!

He's trying to figure out a few things, starting with how to get one of the machines off of the pallet.  The smaller one has two sets of holes in the base that will take thick rods and allow it to be lifted.  But the larger one only has one set of holes.  We can't figure out how to safely sling it.

Any chance you could shed some light?  I don't have details like model numbers right now, but could probably get them, and/or photos of the machine in question.

(This probably should be moved to a different thread...)


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## Inferno (Jun 17, 2020)

jmkasunich said:


> Inferno:
> 
> I know a guy who has two Heidelberg Windmills and is starting up a small high-end printing company.  (Wedding invites and the like.)  He has quite a bit of knowledge about using them - worked for years at his father's printing company in the old country.  Father died, and he had to move and start over.
> 
> ...


There are three main versions of the Windmill.
10X15 red ball
10X15 black ball
12X18

Most of the things between the red ball and black ball are interchangeable but moving them can be different. One has a place where you can put an Eye hook on the top and just lift it. The other, not as easy.

Whatever he does, he should NOT, EVER, try to lift the machine, or even lift a side of the machine by that really convenient axle sticking out the left side. The metal is VERY soft and the shaft will bend. Not "can" bend but "WILL" bend. They can be bent back, lord I know, but it's a tedious process that takes hours to get it right.
The front of ALL models are a great place to put a jack. That's the main base of the machine. The problem lifting from above is that the machine is pretty top heavy so lifting from that low is asking for trouble.

I've only lifted from the eye hook on the one model. Every other model has been done with jacks from the bottom. Lifting under the frame with the arrows and using the bar that's along the bottom in the back.

If I were going to give your friend advice beyond that, without seeing his machines, I'd direct him to briarpress.org
They are more rooted in what your friend is trying to get going. He will probably fall in love with the site and get a TON of help on how to make the most of his machines.




I should add that the base will NOT support trying to get a pry bar under it to tip it. Too many machines have a broken corner where someone tried to pry it off the floor from there. 
Also, I've always added a 4" lift under the windmills. They aren't that big and bending over to adjust things is a pain. 

FWIW, my user name at briarpress is the same as here. I don't check there much though since I don't have a letterpress to play with right now. 

Hope this helps.


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## Toolmaker51 (Jun 17, 2020)

I even like the hack drifting off on Heidelberg presses...but back to the subject.

How long have there been ovals? Quite some time I reckon. The notion CNC is requirement kind of erroneous. Functionally, steel rule or solid punch will accomplish the 500k job; in proper tonnage equipment. But punch gets my nod, and being paper, which is abrasive, probably D2 over A.
The geometry isn't a mystery, or beyond scope of a proper sized vernier scaled rotary table. Labor intensive? Yes, if the planning is bad. Tedious? Depends; you like machining or just collecting a check? Sure a check is fine, my preference is the satisfaction of solving whatever setups needed for a complete job.
I go off every time hearing the only solution is CAD/ CNC, but I'll post that reply elsewhere. Can we make what could only be dreamed of before? Yup, certainly.

Think of the pentagonal, bowtie or oval logo for a certain US car manufacturers. We had a customer making aluminum roof racks for passenger vans. You could buy plain ones, or those with auto company logo punched through the uprights. BTW, I doubt those representations were licensed. Anyway, those diesets wore and yours truly was the dieman they brought them to, at a job shop. No CNC at all. 
Bridgeport knee mill, optical readout, 16" rotary table, pin gauges, hub micrometer, CarrLane trig book, calculator, no original blueprint. Pentagon was toughest, despite generous clearance, geometry of that shape is ALL intersections, nothing parallel, square, figuratively not even symmetrical, beyond the 72° spacing.


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## Inferno (Jun 17, 2020)

Well, I picked up the machines yesterday. They're still in the back of my Mercedes along with about 5 pounds of diamonds. 
The doors are unlocked in case anyone has ideas of breaking glass. Just open the door, grab the diamonds and go. I won't chase you. I promise. 

That's for a different thread. 

It looks like the cylinders on the machines are just rated for 500+ pounds. I'd have to do the math to get the rating correct but it's far from the 2000 pound tonnage I was originally thinking. 
Won't matter much though. 500lbs should be enough to test and if needed I can change the cylinder(s) to boost the tonnage. 

I'm going to go with a steel rule die for the prototype to show the boss. Proof of concept. If he likes the idea then I'll contact a die maker (have zero contacts in that field) and get a die made. 

I don't know that I will need alignment pins. Why? The punch will be built like this one is where there's a gap the board would go into. It's a simple design and doesn't require any special set up. (I have one in 1" circle to show the diemaker)

I guess the first step is to get the stuff out of my car and onto a workbench so I can clean it up. Cheap stuff isn't usually pretty stuff.


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