# New Pm 727m Mill



## lpeedin

Anybody else taken a look at the website lately and seen this new mill?  It appears to be a RF45 style variant with a slightly smaller table.  15" of x travel, 8.25" of Y travel, 16" of Z travel, with 18" spindle to table!! And, it is a 110 volt machine.  Looks very appealing for $1,800.   I have been wanting a PM25MV for a while as it is great reviews, lots of travel, and a good sized table.  Now, I am very torn between the two offerings.  I think the 727 would do a better job with hogging and heavy cuts.  What is a guy to do....


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## Dan_S

I notice that as well.

It's bigger than the PM25, but still a lot lighter than the pm45/932 475 lbs vs 1100 lbs. 

I Think it would be better than the pm25 in all respects except for the 25 being variable speed.


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## wrmiller

My first thought was 'PM25 on steroids'.


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## lpeedin

Well, I am going to try one of the new 727's.  I will report back ASAP!  The mill is in stock, which is always a plus.  This looks to be a fantastic hobby mill and should fit my needs very well.  Now the questions is whether to rebuild my existing bench to insure it will handle the extra weight, which will allow me to put it in the same place as my little X2, or to leave it free-standing on the factory base???


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## mksj

As Bill mentioned, PM25 on steroids (like that). Would go with the stock base since it comes with the mill, and has a nice catch basin. Nice balance of size/features for its size and runs off of 120V, which is a plus if you do not have a 240V circuit.


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## JR49

I too, have been looking at this PM 727m.  Never owned, or even used a mill before, so the only info I have is what I've read in the forum. Square column, a big plus, 18" spindle to table big plus.  I think the table size, and "work envelope" (just learned that term here) will suite my current and future needs, and the size will fit my space nicely.  The things that I have no knowledge about, and would appreciate advise on, is about it being a geared head with 6 speeds from 115 to 1700 rpm. It says gears are "hardened and ground steel gears", so that sounds like a plus, but will only 6  speeds and max speed of 1700 limit this mill?  Thanks for any advise on this,  JR49


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## wrmiller

My PM25 came with a similar stand and for me it was too low to the ground, too narrow, and that little chip basin isn't really wide enough to catch much (it does, just not as much as I'd like).

But that was my experience. Yours could vary.


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## wrmiller

JR49 said:


> I too, have been looking at this PM 727m.  Never owned, or even used a mill before, so the only info I have is what I've read in the forum. Square column, a big plus, 18" spindle to table big plus.  I think the table size, and "work envelope" (just learned that term here) will suite my current and future needs, and the size will fit my space nicely.  The things that I have no knowledge about, and would appreciate advise on, is about it being a geared head with 6 speeds from 115 to 1700 rpm. It says gears are "hardened and ground steel gears", so that sounds like a plus, but will only 6  speeds and max speed of 1700 limit this mill?  Thanks for any advise on this,  JR49



Some of us have gotten spoiled by having variable speed (I gutted El Hefe and put a variable speed/belt drive on him as well), but is it necessary? No. And the upper rpm limit should do fine for most applications I would think. Just my opinion.


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## lpeedin

Bill, 

Everything that I have read says that the factory stand will be too low. Even if I use it, I will need to look into raising it up a bit.  That is why I am leaning towards overhauling my current bench.  I am sure I will slide the chip pan underneath it as I have future plans to add flood coolant.


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## compsurge

The speeds are likely plenty for manual operations. Higher speeds start to require faster feed rates and more efficient coolant and chip clearing. If you can go for the larger PM-932/940 mill, definitely consider it as well. Definitely examine the actual work envelope travels of the machine versus what you intend to use it for.


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## lpeedin

My work envelope is actually rather small.  Mostly gun-smith type work and miscellaneous hobby work.  However, my trusty little X2 just doesn't have what it takes for steel.  For aluminum, it works great.   At first I was thinking of selling my X2, but the more I think of it, it will make a nice little second op machine for aluminum or perhaps a decent little drill press, which is something I don't have.


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## lpeedin

Oh, by the way, I ordered the 727 yesterday and it shipped out yesterday afternoon!  It looks like I will have possibly tomorrow, or Thursday at the latest.  And yes, there will be plenty of pictures!


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## compsurge

Congrats! I look forward to seeing it!


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## brav65

Can't wait to see it set up. Congrats!


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## lpeedin

Well, I take delivery tomorrow between 11 am and 4 pm.  Rather than starting a new thread, I will use this one as the title works well!!  Expect some pictures tomorrow night.


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## mksj

Looking forward to your pictures and review, I think this model hits a sweet spot for its size and specifications. Matt is one of the few vendors that seems to be able to evolve his machines through the years.  You still might look into building a base for the stand if you need the additional height, it looks quite substantial.


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## lpeedin

It's here! Already started uncrating. Everything is packaged well, just as expected. I have already done some preliminary measurements and it looks like I need to raise the stand about 5". I'm going to use some lumber to experiment with, then I will build an adjustable stand.


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## JR49

Looks great 3d, I'll be watching this with much interest. Please post on every bit of your experience with this mill, as I've pretty much decided that this model is just right for my needs.  As mksj said  it fits nicely between the PM 25 with 13" spindle height  and PM 932 weighing 1100 lbs.  It'll be at least a couple more months for me, as I'm currently having daily radiation treatments, which will last another 2 1/2 months.  BUT HEY,  talk about turning  a negative into a positive---my incredible wife agrees that a mill would make a nice "end of radiation treatments" gift !  So, thanks for all your future 727m posts, and remember there is no such thing as too many pics !  JR49


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## wrmiller

That's a pretty nice looking mill you have there Sir!

I too am looking forward to your impressions, and of course more pics.


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## lpeedin

I'd send it back. Your Chinese plywood has a big void in it.  Before anyone starts giving me a hard time, the OP & I are good friends. 


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## lpeedin

Well guys, it has been a long afternoon. As expected, everything was packaged well. The fit and finish of the machine was great; it was right on par with my 1127vf-lb lathe I got back in January.

Uncrating was they typical chore. They do a really good job at the factory of crating these things. Once I got the crate all stripped down, I took some quick measurements of the stand and approximate height to the table. The stand is 27" tall, and the table sits about 8" above that.  That is a little low for me.  I whipped up a temporary stand from 4 ×4's and 2×4's, that gave me 5" more height.

I hoisted everything up into position (except the chip pan which I forgot in my excitement) and bolted it all down. The first thing I noticed is that the y axis was almost impossible to move. It was bound up tight. I inspected the tapered gib and it appeared to be a little long. I sanded it some using the mill table as a flat surface. Then I filed the notch for the gib adjustment screw a little deeper as I realized the screw on one end was only about 2 threads in.  This gave me more peace of mind that the screw would hold. I also turned a spacer for the other side adjustment screw as it was bottomed out and not engaging. This allowed it to actually make contact and secure the gib.

The only other issues were simple. The t-slot bolts included in the tool box  were too wide for the slots, and for the slots in my new 4" vice.  Ground those down to fit and filed the slots on the vice accordingly.  Then I noticed that the draw bar was not threaded long enough to fully draw the R8 collets into the spindle. I slapped a couple of washers on there for now. I plan to turn a bushing this weekend.  At the same time, I found that the collet wouldn't actually go into the spindle.  I remembered a thread on here where Matt commented about simply backing out the small screw in the side of the spindle.  I found that screw, removed it, cleaned it and the hole, and put it back in with some blue loc-tite and adjusted it so the collets would slide right in. 

The left hand knob on the table had a bit of slop in its engagement and every time I turned the right side know, the left knob made a clunking sound as the handle went over the top and the weight shifted.  I shimmed that with some aluminum foil folded over a few times.  To me, all that is minor stuff. It is a Chinese machine after all.

With all that said, I did mill some bar stock just a few minutes ago just to see what she would do. Man, it is a beast. My frame of comparison is a little X2 mill, so the bar was not set very high. It plowed through the steel at .030 deep with a 7/16" hss end mill at 600 rpm. I know that isn't a massive cut, but the X2 couldn't even dream of that cut.

The thing that will take some getting used to is the sound of the gears. My X2 had a belt drive. But, this mill isn't really loud at all.

I am very happy with my purchase.  I think that this size machine is perfect for a hobby guy like me that doesn't have the room for a full knee mill. It should serve my purposes very well.


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## wrmiller

Sounds like you had a few of those 'Chinese things' to take care of, but it didn't sound like you ran into anything major. I've had similar issues with every machine I've ever owned but I was up and running a lot faster than others I've witnessed having to refurbish or restore a used machine. Of any parentage.

My PM25 will easily take a .25" deep DOC with a good quality endmill (I might use a rougher for that, depending upon the material). I had similar experiences when I stepped up from my LMS mill to my PM, and then from my PM to my CO 12z. Have you stopped grinning yet?


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## lpeedin

Nope, definitely still grinning!! I have a couple of new cobalt end mills that I got recently and have waited to try out when I got the new machine.  I plant to see what a fresh sharp end mill will do this evening.  I actually did make myself go to bed last night right after my update.  My buddy Lee (lpeedin on here) was teasing me today that he knew I would end up doing some machining before bed, one way or another!!  

The big things I have to do now are just to fab up a steel adjustable base, install that, and put my chip pan on and I am all set.  I will fine tune the tram over the weekend too as I can tell just by milling that the left side of the end mill is cutting a little more than the right.  I will also probably go ahead and do an oil change since I did a spindle break in yesterday and did some milling with it.  

So far, it is everything that I thought it would be.


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## bsmith918

I'm trying to decide between this and the PM-25.  This will be my first mill and I will be using it mostly for gun related machining and any other small projects.  anybody have an opinion?  I can't wait to see some more pics.


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## wrmiller

I do mostly pistol/revolver work, with some rifle mixed in. My PM 25 would do most things I need of it, but if the 727 had been available at that time, I would have opted for it instead as it lends a little more mass/rigidity for when you're milling on forged slides and other similar operations.

My experience has shown that much can be done on smaller machines, but if you can afford the space and money, bigger does work better in many cases.


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## lpeedin

Well, I decided today was "tram the mill day" and what a day it was. I noted that when milling, the pattern favored the left side of the cuttet, meaning the spindle was tilted to the left. So, I went to work.

First, I trammed the head to the column. Then, I removed the column from the table with my trusty gantry crane and inspected the mating surfaces. There was no grit, paint, sand, or anything in there, just some hand scraped mating surfaces.  I wiped everything down and reinstalled the the column. 

After that, I checked the head to table alignment and noted that I was still tilted left about .005" over 7".  So, I re-trammed the head to the column, since I just lifted it with the crane.  Then I check the head to table again and I was still .0045" off. So, I loosened the 4 bolts on the column mount and tilted it to the side and ended up using a total of 16 pieces of aluminum foil to shim it. I got it to within .00075. I milled a couple passes to check and the pattern was still favoring that left side, but not nearly as severe. I plan to add 2 more pieces of foil tomorrow which will hopefully get it within .0001".


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## JR49

3dshooter80 said:


> First, I trammed the head to the column



3dshooter, or anyone who knows, exactly what is involved in tramming the head to the column ?  Thanks,  JR49


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## lpeedin

Head to column is the same is head to table, except you put your indicator base in the column and use that as your reference point. This insures that you are setting the rotational axis if the spindle in line with the travel of the head up and down the dovetail. 

Once you know that is good, then you move your indicator to the table. Now you arw. Heckling the relationship of the spindle relative to the table. This is when you would need to shim the column to correct misalignment. Having the head square to the table is good, but it if the column is moving up and down at a tilt, there will be a shift in dimensions laterally. 

I just went out and checked mine again two times amd it appears that I am much closet than I thought. I figured it this morning at less than .0005" to the left. I am going to just bump the head and mill passes until I get that perfect circle pattern in the surface.  When I mill in the y axis only, I get those perect circles. Nod is good. But, there is still the slightest lip on the left edge that is visible and can be felt with a fingernail.


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## lpeedin

Yep, you lay awake half the night (after checking for ticks) thinking about the tram on your new toy.  Hope to get over there tomorrow to check it out. 


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## JR49

3dshooter80 said:


> Head to column is the same is head to table, except you put your indicator base in the column and use that as your reference point


           So,. lets see if I've  got this right.  You put the magnetic base on a solid, non-moving part of the column (like behind the dovetail, on the side.  Then you set the indicator plunger on the side of the head, and run the head up and down, to see if the needle moves.  If it shows movement, what would you adjust, to make it right ?  Thanks, JR49


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## compsurge

JR49 said:


> So,. lets see if I've  got this right.  You put the magnetic base on a solid, non-moving part of the column (like behind the dovetail, on the side.  Then you set the indicator plunger on the side of the head, and run the head up and down, to see if the needle moves.  If it shows movement, what would you adjust, to make it right ?  Thanks, JR49


This would only indicate the head isn't square. And there is no way you'll get a head that is cast within a tolerance used for alignment . You can, however, chuck a precision shaft in a collet and run this up and down. Note: most of the the "precision shaft" from McMaster-Carr is diametrically accurate, but it not suitable for this since it is warped over the length.

Here's a good video for this process:


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## lpeedin

That video that Tim (compsurge) posted is exactly what I did for my head to column alignment.  I rechecked my spindle to table and was actually way off. I ended up sweeping the table with an indicator mounted in the quill to do the final adjustments for the column to table alignment, knowing that the head to column was as close to perfect as I could get it. However, the column to table was off approx. .018".  I am not sure why I thought it was closer that that originally.  In order to keep track of my shimming adjustments for the column, I just used a sharpie marker and noted the measurements at various locations on the table.  I was swinging the indicator in a circle approx. 6" diameter, which put it about a 1/2" from each edge of the table (front and back).  Then I kept shimming as I got it closer and closer.  Once I was done, I verified with test cuts from large diameter end mills as well as my fly cutter.  

It did take more shimming that I had imagined. I actually shimmed the left side of the column approx .120" which I thought was excessive, until  I did more reading over the weekend.  I found a couple of threads where people were talking about significant shimming along that same magnitude, for comparable square column machines.  The interesting part was that when I got the machine out of the crate, the head to table tram was pretty good and it cut well initially.  However, I noticed that the pointer for the head tilt was off approx. 1 full degree.  After the head to column alignment, the pointer is now dead on the "0" mark.  One other observation that I made was that when I put a level on my table, it is level in both directions.  Before I got the column shimmed, I put the level on the dovetails and the bubble was off.  Now, if I put a level on the dovetails, it is all level.  Of course, this only works if the table is level.  

I have attached a picture of the shimming.  There was a good amount of body filler used on this machine, some of which chipped off when I removed the column.  When I got my 1127VF-lb lathe earlier this year, I did receive two small touch up paint cans, which I have never used on the lathe.  I do plan to at least paint over the discolored parts to make it look a little better.  

Sorry I haven't posted more pictures.  I am still very happy with this machine.  I would definitely recommend this machine for the home shop machinist.  This is the perfect blend of rigidity and mass combined with smaller size and maneuverability.  I am looking forward to getting my Igaging DRO's installed and then cranking out some accurate parts.


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## wrmiller

Hoss does take half of the vid to actually get to the meat of the subject, but he left a couple of things out.

One, he didn't describe how/where to shim in the case of misalignment in Y, so I guess you just hope for the best? Or maybe the intent was to just show how to measure and the rest is up to you. 

And two, he trammed the head with it being loose i.e., gibb locks not tightened down. When you lock the head to the column, the alignment will move. How much is dependent upon how well you have the gibb adjusted in the head mount but basically the head is cocked on the column ways because of it's weight and gravity and it will move when tightened down. Now I think he has converted that particular mill to cnc so he of course won't be locking the head, but folks using this mill manually might.

If you lock the head like I do before cutting, it might help to tram the same way.


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## JR49

A big thanks to 3dshooter, compsurge, and wrmiller19.  I think I  understand the process of  checking the spindle (head) to column tram, and the column to table tram now.  However, here is my confusion.  On the square column mill, the head (spindle) is mounted to, (and slides on) the column with mating dovetails. So, if  the spindle axis is not aligned (trammed) with the column axis, in X and Y, what and where do you make adjustments ??  I would have thought that this should be made perfect during manufacture, or like on a lathe cross slide, if travel isn't perfectly perpendicular to spindle axis, the only fix is re-scraping the dovetails.  I'm sure I must be missing something.  Please enlighten me,  thanks again,  JR49


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## compsurge

As long as the head moves parallel to the column, There are a few places to make adjustment. The tilt of the head would affect the X-tram of the head to the table (rotate the head). Any Y tilt will likely be the column base squareness to the table (shim the column). A head nod (head not in tram with the column) could be a gibs tightness or the parallelism of the dovetail/ways to head mating surface. Make sure the shaft you are using is straight.

Even tightening the head bolts will make variations in the ~0.001" scale. See if working the bolts helps fix any nod. My running theory is to find anything loose and fiddle with it to see how it affects the dial indicator. If the machine can move on the ways and the gibs are tightened sufficiently to remove any "slack" that could be made by hand movement of the cast iron components.

Are you able to take a video or photo of the measurements in question as well as show your setup? Hopefully, that will allow us to see any issues you might have as well.


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## AirWolf

Congratulations!! Looking forward to your review with a great amount of interest!!


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## lpeedin

JR49,  your assumption is correct that these things "should" be manufactured perfectly square, but the reality is, they typically aren't perfect.  What you have to understand initially are what the constants are and what is adjustable.  The constants are the travel of the head up and down the column via the dovetail ways, and the travel of the table front and rear (Y axis) and left to right (X axis).  Those are the things we cannot change.  What we can change / adjust are the alignment of the head / spindle along the X axis by means of loosening the bolts and rotating the head,  the "nod" of the head (possibly by shimming between the head and the carriage assembly, but I wouldn't recommend that unless absolutely necessary since the shims could slide out of place when the head is roatated.  Also, the nod would be off if the head was rotated anyways as the shim location would be dependent on the rotational position of the had in relation to the head carriage), and the other thing we can adjust is the column alignment by means of shimming between the column mounting flanges and the base itself.  Like compsurge stated, the relative tightness or looseness of the gibs will affect the alignment of the head as well.  When the gibs are tightened, it pulls the head into tight alignment with the dovetail ways.  When they are loosened, gravity wants to pull the head down and away from the column.  

Anytime we check alignment, the gibs must be tight.  In a perfect scenario, I suppose you could get crazy technical and utilize a small torque wrench to insure that each time you lock down the gibs, the torque is identical.  But, that is overkill for me.   Now that we have assumed the gibs will be tight each time we make an adjustment, we focus on adjusting the head in the X axis.  Just like in the video from Hoss machine that we posted already, we check the runout of a shaft with the head low and then raise it up and check it again.  As long as the run out is centered over the "0" mark in both cases, the spindle is running true to the column travel.  All you have to do is to see which way the run out is off and adjust the opposite way.  I would suggest using one end as the "0" end and the other as the relative end to be measured.  For me, I used the top of the shaft, close to the collet, as my "0" end.  Then I raised the head up approx. 6" and measured the run out at the bottom of the shaft.  Then you simply loosen the head bolts, rotate the head as needed (keep the indicator on the shaft and use this to guide your rotational efforts), and then lock the head back down.  Then go back to your "0" end, reset your "0" as it will be off now, and then run the head back up and check the runout again.  Keep in mind, each time you move the head, before you measure anything, you have to tighten the locking gibs down to insure the head is in tight alignment with the dovetail ways.  

So, now we assume that the head has been aligned to the column.  For me, I ended up putting an indicator in my spindle and held in place with a collet.  Then I bring the indicator down to the table and zero it at the edge of the table closest to me.  The as you rotate the spindle, you can observe and record the readings.  Most likely, you will have a high reading on one side and a low reading on the other side.  Then you loosen you column and shim between the column flange and the base to get the whole column and head to tilt towards the side of the table with the low readings.   This is where you would do any tweaking to the Y axis in addition to the X axis.  Once you get the indicator reading "0" all the way around the table, call it good, grab a cold beer, and pat yourself on the back.  

Then, make some friggin chips!!


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## JR49

Wow, what a great explanation, 3dshooter,and compsurge.  I got it now, and hopefully, will remember it because, to answer compsurge's request for pics and info, I don't presently have a mill.   I will be getting one (probably the 727m, with 3dshooter's recommendation) in a few months once my health issues are resolved.  I hope Matt still has them in stock when I'm ready.  Looking forward to seeing more pics and updates on that 727m, 3d,  thanks,  JR49


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## compsurge

I must have missed who I was replying to @JR49! Hope your health improves. Once you get the mill, you'll find it's a lot simpler than it may sound over the internet. Let us know if you get a 727 or step up to the 940 (or creep up to a 935)!


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## lpeedin

Well, I got some new t bolts made up for my vise and got it all squared up tonight. Once I had that all set, I started on a couple of nice new t nuts that will attach my igaging dro to the slot along the front of the table. It is only fitting that the first part I made on the new mill was for the new mill. I intend to use my X2 mill to fab up the rest of the parts, because I don't really like milling without dro's! I'll keep everybody posted with my progress.


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## DvCnewt

Thinking about getting this mill also.  Are you happy with it over getting the PM-25MV?  Any progress to share yet?

David


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## Mike Mace

Hi all, new to forum and just stumbled across this machine.  Appears to be just what I'm looking for.  Any more feedback you are able to share?   Really close to pulling the trigger.


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## lpeedin

Hi Mike! Welcome to the forum. I haven't milled a "ton" of chips out with it yet.  But, I am still thoroughly impressed.  The size is the main thing that I really like.  It fills the gap between the X3  / G0704 style machines, and the larger ZX45/ PM 932 size machines.  I have been impressed with the heavy cuts I have been able to make.  It really speeds up my working time as compared to my little X2.  The smoothness and finish of the table is what has impressed me the most.  I did end up cleaning out the thrust bearings and going with grease instead of daily oiling and it has become even more smooth to operate.  I was worried at first about being limited to only 6 spindle speeds since my X2 was variable speed.  That hasn't been an issue at all.  You just may have to feed a little faster or slower.  

I have already realized an easy mod that I am going to complete in the very near future to increase travel in the x axis.  The only thing that stops the table travel and keeps it at the listed 15" is the very corners of the brackets that hold the handwheels / thrust bearings.  I plan to remove them and shave off the very lower corners, allowing the table to move an additional 1.5" in each direction.  Then there will be a hard stop of the handwheel bracket meeting the web of the saddle.  That should give me 18" of X.  

Overall, I couldn't be happier.  You will love this machine.  The surface finish I am getting has been fantastic.  I have my igaging scales installed so backlash is not an issue for me.  Really an impressive machine for the money.


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## JR49

Mike Mace said:


> Hi all, new to forum and just stumbled across this machine. Appears to be just what I'm looking for. Any more feedback you are able to share? Really close to pulling the trigger.


EDIT:  Wow I type really slow, and thanks for that report 3D, my interest is peaking!
          I also have been watching for more reports on this 727, which I think, like you, would be a perfect size for my needs.  My only concern is the fact that there doesn't seem to be much interest in them.  Or, if they are selling, no one is posting about them.  I've gone to other forums and haven't seen anything.  I'm not saying the lack of talk is because its not a good mill, in fact, 3dshooter80 (the OP) seems very happy with his, although, he hasn't posted in a while.  My concern is that, if they don't sell, PM might discontinue  it, and then, future parts and support could be hard to find.  Anyone got any thoughts on that?  Maybe Matt from PM will see this  and respond.  I would love to hear his thoughts on this.   Come on guys, this is a perfect size for a hobby machinist.  I've looked at a bunch of  Bridgeports and clones, but they are just way bigger, and heavier than I would ever use.  Good luck with your decision, Mike, and PLEASE, keep us informed.  JR49


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## lpeedin

I wouldn't expect this to be discontinued any time soon.  Grizzly is selling the comparable model also, both of which I believe just became available this year.  When I ordered mind from Matt, I asked him about other peoples feedback and he stated that he had 15 or so out in the field and hadn't had any issues.  I don't have any idea how many Grizzly has sold, but I think at the price point, it can't be beat.  I was leaning hard towards a PM-25 but the extra 200# of cast iron is what sold me.  These two machines have basically the same table, with the 727 having a beefier saddle which is the reason for the shorter X travel.  (but like I said, I am going to mod that a bit).  

There are only two things that I didn't like / expect with my machine.  The first was how much I had to shim the column on mine.  I ended up at approx 1/8" of shim thickness on one side.  The other is that when I moved the table all the way to the left, there was a good bit of binding in the handwheel.   What I discovered is that when they drilled the holes in the table for the handwheel bracket assembly, they were off center a bit and this caused binding of the leadscrew when fully to the left.  I removed the hand wheel bracket, tapped out the pins used to hold the bracket in place, and then reattached the bracket with the cap head screws so that it was as square and aligned as possible.  Then I took a slightly large drill bit and drilled through the pin holes in the bracket and table and tapped those holes for 3/8-16.  Then I just put in (2) new stainless cap screws to plug the holes.  I don't think the screws would be needed to counteract the forces of the handwheel during milling, I just wanted the holes plugged.  

I am still very happy with my purchase and would buy it again.


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## compsurge

The 727 is pretty much a brand new offering, so I wouldn't expect many owners yet. Matt used to sell the PM-30, which I own. It is of the similar size of the 727M. He had to discontinue it because the supplier's increased costs put it too close to a PM-932.

I would say if you want larger than a G0704 and can't afford or fit a 932/940 or even a 935 that this is the next best option.


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## JR49

compsurge said:


> Matt used to sell the PM-30, which I own. It is of the similar size of the 727M. He had to discontinue it because the supplier's increased costs put it too close to a PM-932.


            Compsurge, How long has it been since he discontinued the PM-30 ?  I assume you had a 3 year warranty, but when that has expired, will Matt still supply any needed replacement parts ?  If not, where will you get parts or support ?  Thanks, JR49


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## kleitch

I have also been watching this thread and thinking about getting one of these after looking at the pm25-mv for awhile.  It quotes a large cross travel for a small machine. I was comparing it to the Grizzly G0759 in which it excells in almost all categories but especially the travel. Would like to get one in the next month cash permitting.


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## compsurge

I got mine a few years ago. I haven't had any issue with mine other than a blown fuse (stalled the motor). Parts are still available for the PM-30MV-L (WMD30LV) since the mill is still in production. Matt doesn't make the machines, he buys them to his spec and has them painted and labeled with his brand. Weiss did the process control on his PM-30 machines, but I don't know what Chinese manufacturer actually made the machine.

The only thing I would say about the 727M is that the stand is likely just passable. I have a similar stand, but I am replacing it with a welded steel tubing base. I find it isn't very rigid under bigger cuts. I can't complain though since it works well enough to get started.


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## qualitymachinetools

Hey guys, nothing to worry about on parts. And yes the 727 is newer, we only have about 35 or so of them out there now, but we will carry them. They will start to show on online forums. Although we have a ton of the PM-1030V out there, and I can not find many users on forums on those at all. 

 I still have parts for the 30MV Mills too, but we changed the 25MV to brushless and belt drive, and to build a machine like the 30 in that size would have made the price around $2200. Add a table power feed to it, you are at $2500.00         And at that price, there is the 932M which is a much much heavier machine. So thats the only reason for that. We would have had to commit to 1000 of them to do it, so I held off on that. 

 I am trying not to have too many models to simplify things, but I really like that 727M with the longer Y Axis travel. Its a nice step up if you need something a little more than the 25, but do not want to deal with the 1100 pound 932M.


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## qualitymachinetools

And 3d I am glad you are liking the machine! Great to hear!


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## Mike Mace

Thanks for the information fellas.  Really pumped about getting this machine now. Still need to decide if I want to get the dro and or powerfeed right away.  I just need to do a little more sweet talking with the other half and I'll be making the call.  I should really make the four hourish trip to go check it out / pick it up.


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## lpeedin

Hey Matt, this is Chad Hensley from NC. The 3dshooter80 is a username from an archery forum. I'm not very original!!  Yep, really liking the machine. All is well on my end.


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## lpeedin

Well, I did find a slight issue with the machine over the weekend.  I built a dual dial indicator tramming aid that fits in the quill.  It is one of those where you zero each dial on a single piece such as a gauge block, and then bring the apparatus in contact with the table to observe spindle tilt.  After using it to check the table, I was very surprised at the variation of readings over the table.  In some areas of the table, there was as much as .009" variation in readings over the 5.500" between the two indicators.  

Let me start with my process.  I initially checked in the middle of the table, on the front-most of the two wide slabs on the table. (my table has a narrow slab on the front and rear with two wider slabs  in the middle, all of which are divided by 3 t-slots, please forgive my terminology here).  Then I proceeded to move the table throughout it's range of motion and check the readings in various locations.  I took pictures of each position and will upload them shortly.  This variation really bothered me, so I immediately tore down the entire machine to inspect everything I could.  

I don't have a surface plate so I can't really check for relative flatness.  About all I can check is relative thickness.   I was impressed that my table was within .0003" on thickness on the ends, with only a slightly (.0015") narrower measurement in the approximate middle of the table.  I might add that the front corners measured approx. .0008" thicker than the rear corners.  

Next, I checked my saddle.  What I found is that the front right corner was approx. .004" higher than the rest of the corners.  I was measuring the distance from the top of the saddle (where the table would slide across) down to the ways on the base.  So, I removed the saddle and put a micrometer on each corner, and found that all 4 corners were within approx .0003" of each other in relative thickness.  So I stoned the bottom of the saddle as there were some aggressive scraping marks there which I assumed was for oil, and placed the saddle back on the base ways.  Three of the corners sit flat, but when pressure is applied to the front right corner, I can fit a .006" feeler gauge under with essentially no rubbing.  This makes me think that my saddle is slightly twisted.  

So, then I reassembled everything, put my vise back on, and squared it up.  Then I put a piece of 12" long bar stock in the vise and made a relatively thin cut on each side of the bar.  I then measured the bar overall and what I found was surprising.  I found that approx. half of the bar had exactly the same thickness as measured in increments of .5"  from end to end.  Then, approx. half way across, the thickness starts to increase to a maximum of .0012" thicker than the other side.  

I believe this is due to the weight of the table shifting from side to side over the range of motion, causing the saddle to flex downward or upward.  I also am led to believe that this may explain the variation of the tramming tool readings over the table range of motion. 

What do you guys think?


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## JR49

3dshooter80 said:


> What do you guys think?


     OK,  you know I'm the guy watching this closely and considering getting this same mill.  I have  NO  mill experience at all.  And yes, I know everyone says the Chinese machines are less expensive and need some help to make them accurate, and you probably want the satisfaction of making it right yourself. Now correct me if  wrong here, but, I don't think a mill with a wobbly or un-flat table is going to make very accurate parts!  At this point I would be on the phone with PM, asking Matt how to fix this, OR, better yet asking for a new table.  With all the good things I've read about Matt and PM, he will probably offer to send you whatever will fix the problem without your asking.  Anyway, sorry I posted with no solutions, hope you find a fix, I'll still be watching, so please keep us informed.  Good luck,  JR49


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## wrmiller

Make sure your x-axis gib is properly adjusted. If it's loose it will allow the table to sag a bit when traversing from one side to the other.


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## lpeedin

Bill, I am sure the gib is tight. I habe checked it from no tension all the way up to so tight I can't turn the handwheel.


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## Dan_S

Have you checked to make sure the weight of the machine is evenly distributed across the base? Most machines big or small will sag under their own wait if not properly supported.


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## wrmiller

3dshooter80 said:


> Bill, I am sure the gib is tight. I habe checked it from no tension all the way up to so tight I can't turn the handwheel.



Figured as much, but had to ask 'just in case'. 

If you grab the table and try twisting/lifting it can you feel any movement? (you can check for small movements with a DI)


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## lpeedin

Dan, how would I go about checking weight distribution?  I have the machine mounted on the based that came with it.  Then I have that sitting on a square base made of 4 x 4 timber to add a little height.  The base of the machine is bolted down the freestanding metal base with the factory bolts in the factory bolt holes.


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## lpeedin

Bill, I have checked that, no movement that I can detect.  That is why I am thinking the saddle might be warped.


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## lpeedin

Well, I am now thinking that I may have caused this while mess. I was looking at it some more last night and noticed that with the table all the way to the left, only the back right corner of the saddle is touching.  I did mess with the gibs when I first got the machine as I didn't like that there were only 1.5 threads holding the front gib adjustment screw in. I did some filing and sanding on the gib to help it sit deeper so there would be more thread engagement on the adjustment screw. Look as like I may have a go at fabbing  a new tapered gib.   I am going to play with some shimming this evening to see just how bad I messed things up.


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## wrmiller

So do you think the gib may not be making full contact?


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## lpeedin

That's exactly what I think. I'm goin to try bluing it up and inserting it to see if I can tell.


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## wrmiller

3dshooter80 said:


> That's exactly what I think. I'm goin to try bluing it up and inserting it to see if I can tell.



I did exactly that with the gib strips on my PM25. Ended up having to scrape and lap all three to get the engagement I wanted.


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## lpeedin

I'm just worried I already filed off too much material not knowing what I was soing. May have a go at making a whole new gib.


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## T Bredehoft

I'd ask Matt if he has one he could send you. They should be pretty well standard.

Tom


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## lpeedin

T Bredehoft said:


> I'd ask Matt if he has one he could send you. They should be pretty well standard.
> 
> Tom




I already did talk to Matt about it.  As you can imagine, he has been extremely responsive and helpful.  Don't know how he keeps up with it all??  He is going to get me one, but since it is not a part that is commonly in need, he doesn't have one sitting there.  I think in the mean time, I am going to see what I can do to make one out of some 1018.  More for the the experience than anything else!


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## compsurge

Just be careful of using a tougher material for your gib than the cast iron table. It will probably be ok for a little while, but prolonged use might do more harm than good.


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## T Bredehoft

Make your trial from brass, not steel.  Or Iron if you can get it.


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## lpeedin

I don't intend to keep the steel gib in use for very long. I just want to do it for the experience.  I already have a nice piece sitting on the bench.  I am going to stop by the local scrap yard and see if I can find a nice piece of brass.  If I can, I will use that instead.


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## lpeedin

I found a guy to inspect the saddle.  He was (or maybe still is) a machining instructor at the local community college.  He has his own shop and has all the goodies (surface plate, etc) to inspect this properly.  I am hoping to stop by there sometime tomorrow to have him take a look at it.


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## lpeedin

Well, the saddle is flat as can be. They put it on a surface plate and found no apparent issues. Seeing as how the saddle rocks when it sits on the base, I am now inclined to think perhaps the base is being twisted due to either the hold down bolts, the base being twisted, or even my wooden sub base. I'm going to go home and loosen all the base bolts and check it again.


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## wrmiller

On my PM25, it sits on four aluminum plates at the corners and a 3/4" piece of plywood on top of a 40" toolbox. My mill is only slightly snugged down to keep it from moving as I don't want to load/tweak the machine's base and only want to keep it from moving sideways during cutting. Not suggesting anything just describing how I did it.


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## lpeedin

Well, I think I finally found the main culprit. Since the saddle was perfect when checked on a surface plate today, this got me looking at the ways and base.  I loosened up all the base mount bolts to see if this made a difference and nothing changed. So I looked at the factory metal stand and for some reason, I hadn't noticed that the stand was not square across the front. The front right corner tapers down. So, this was causing the base to flex, and then the saddle rocked.  I shimmed under that front right corner of the base, and the rocking is gone. I then shimmed my y axis gib, and everything seems much better now.  Looks like I am going to build a base sooner rather than later.


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## lpeedin

Just a quick follow up.  After I shimmed the front corner to make up for the poorly built sheet metal stand, all seems to be doing very well with my mill.  The rocking of the saddle is completely gone, the lifting of the saddle has been reduced to about .003" on each side when the table is fully extended left or right.  The head tram is consistent all the way through the range of motion in relation to the table top.  I check everything with a fly cutter and got a consistent cut across an 11" long piece of aluminum stock.  I actually had to re-tram the column to the table by removing approx. .018" worth of shims that I had originally installed.  I just wish I would have though about the basics when I was chasing my tail, and then started inspecting where the mill sits.  I would have saved myself and you guys reading this a bunch on grief.  

Here is a picture of the sheet metal stand.  You can see how big the gap was in the front corner.  I have shimmed it with some aluminum angle.  Apparently the factory that makes the stands is separate from the factory that makes the machines (and that's a good thing!!).


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## wrmiller

But...if you hadn't gone through this you wouldn't have gotten as familiar with your new machine as you are now. 

Still looking forward to your impressions when you actually get to use the machine as intended.


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## lpeedin

Apparently a package arrived at my house today direct from China that has two nice new gibbs inside.


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## Dman1114

Man matt is really taking care of yah!!!   


I bought my PM25 this summer....  wish i knew this was out.    Nice looking machine.....  (can U post some more pics of the whole machine Please!!!!)

I agree on the stands...   they are flimsy at best.    I made a 2x4 steel tube frame to raise mine up and give it more stability .  i wanted to just bolt it to the frame, but i ended up welding it because of too much flex.    Im now thinking bout making a new stand with shelving underneath.   I am running out of tool storage and my workbench is pilling up.......


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## kleitch

I just bought one of these. So far its a great machine for the size. Its a lot quieter than I thought a gear head machine would be. I almost bought the PM-25 but the travel on this machine sold it for me.


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## kleitch

Here is a photo


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## lpeedin

kleitch said:


> Here is a photo



First stealth milling machine I've ever seen. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lpeedin

I have been very happy since I figured out the issues with my mill stand / base twist and got things working smoothly.  I haven't had time yet to try to fit one of the new gibs that Matt so graciously had direct shipped to me from China.  I have since finished up a couple of new AXA / 100 sized tool holders for my PM1127-VFLB lathe and I did remember to snap a couple of pics while I was hogging out the slot for the dovetail on one of the holders.   While this is not a Bridgeport or a Kearney and Trekker,   it holds it own very well.  I hogged those slots witha 3/8" roughing end mill at 320 rpm with full width .350" deep cut.  Total slot depth was .385" so that left me a little clean up with a regular 4 flute end mill.   Vibration and chatter are non-existent, especially with the roughing end mill.  I am really loving this machine.


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## JR49

That looks great, 3D, you are getting me excited all over again.  I had my LAST radiation treatment today, and will be ordering mine soon. Looks like that machine will be perfect for my needs.  I have a couple questions,  (not about the mill, you've already sold me on that) .  What material did you use for the tool holders?  And what size dovetail cutter did you use on them?  TIA,  JR49
EDIT, Oh, and how about a pic of the finished product?


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## Dragon

is there any idea to extend the X Axis travel from 15" to maybe 20"?   can you make blocks that have 2" thickness each side and see how to fit them there with high precision flat surface?


Oz


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## lpeedin

JR, here is a pic of two finished tool holders for you.  I used what appears to be plain old cold-rolled 1018.  I found a scrap yard locally that actually resells to the public.  They have everything organized by material type: aluminum, brass, stainless, etc..   I found a piece of 1.75" x 1.75" stock about a foot long.   I managed to get 4 holders out of it, although one is about .250" short, but I don't think that I will notice that I am .125" short on each end.  

Oz, as far as increasing the travel along the X, this is easily achievable by nipping off the corners of the handwheel brackets as those brackets are what stop the table when they contact the saddle.  This would easily add about 3" of travel, but you would do so at the expense of losing contact with the gibs on each end.  That is why I haven't done this mod yet and I am doubting that I will actually do it.


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## lpeedin




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## lpeedin

I almost forgot, I used a 3/4" 60 degree dovetail cutter I got on ebay for $15.  I just used two matching drill bits as dowel pins to measure the factory tool holders and then transfer that measurement to the new dovetail slot.  Dovetail cutters are fragile, so I never took more than .020" cut for the first couple passes, and then went with .015" cuts.  From what I remember, I ended up cutting about .140" in either direction once I got my center slot milled out.


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## JR49

First of all, 3D, beautiful work on those tool holders !  Now, Oz's question about extending the X travel has brought up new questions from me.  I can see where adding a 2" block to each end of the table will increase the table size by 4" (duh!), but, wouldn't you need a longer lead screw to increase travel?  Also, the 727M has 15 " of X travel, does that mean that I can machine a feature (say a slot) into a work piece the full 15" without re-setting the piece?  And, lastly, even if for whatever reasons (that I hope someone will explain), this slot can only be 10" with a 15" X travel machine, then wouldn't it be easier for the few times that this might come up (for me anyway), to cut the slot as long as the travel allows, then re-position the piece and continue the slot?  What am I missing?  Thanks again,  JR49


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## compsurge

JR,

Great question. You are correct in that 15" travel means you can cut a 15" (give or take some error) slot along the x-axis. You should be able to cut the slot you need in one pass.

I don't think you're missing much. Multiple setups in the case of machining 10" of your 15" requires accurate locating and positioning of the work. You may need a fixture or jig of some sort to make the part. It would really be up to you to determine how to break down the cut for multiple operations.

You might want to look into machinist jacks as well depending on your workholding method.


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## Dragon

so it's  easy to add two blocks into each side of the X axis but the problem with the gibs.. (3dshooter80) was right! and I think to go 2" each side without gibs is losing accuracy and possible vibrations.... and I think that is true  specially if you do cut next to that area..

for CNC if you are going to replace the lead screw then longer  ball screw  is required to full the length of the X axis travel..

it's better to increase the Y axis than the X axis since the Y axis is done by just cutting the extra  metal  in the saddle channel.  

and for that main reason I picked G0704 against PM727M     I have plan to make supporting metal that can be screwed on the column from top to the bottom and then that metal will go like L and set on flat plate that both the base (saddle ) and the column will set on it and the L will screw on that plate now with this modification you can add 3 phase motor with 2 Hp and you don't have to think even about the tilting or any rigidity problem..

then extending the Y Axis up to 9" at the end will have very ridged 9x18 travel mill!  
I was about to call Grizzly and ship my G0704 back and get the Pm727m instead! 
I am getting my mill tomorrow!!! 

Oz


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## lpeedin

The more I think about it, the more I think it might not be that big of a deal to increase the travel. The G0704 or PM25 have more travel due to a narrower saddle.  The tables of all three mills (PM 727 included) appears to be basically ifentical. So, if the other two can travel more just from the narrower saddles, then there is less gib contact on those, and nobody is complaining about this with those mills.  I would still have the same amount of gib contact as the 25 or 0704.


----------



## pepi

3d,
 Have a question, did that mill come with instructions a user guide? I am interested in knowing if there was a break in run and what lube should be used after words.


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## lpeedin

Yes, the mill does come with a manual.  As this mill is a variation of the mill that is also sold by Grizzly, Bolton, etc,  the manual is generic.  The difference in the machines appears to be in what user features are incorporated.  For instance, Grizzly's model has a tapping feature.  The PM model can do that too, simply by using the start and stop buttons in conjunction with the forward and reverse functions.  I am sure there are differences in things unseen as well, such as bearing quality.  

I replied to your other post with this same information.  Go to http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Benchtop-Mill-Drill/G0795 and download the manual from there.  ISO 68 is the recommended fluid.  All of these machines such as the PM 932 / 45 that are geared head machines would use the same oil.   There is a stick  from RayC that goes into how to do the oil change for a PM 45 at the top of the forum page.  He states to use either ISO 68 or 32 depending on climate / temperature.  I actually just did the oil change in mine since I have now had it about three months.    I ended up using AW 46 hydraulic oil since it is slightly thinner than the 68 and it is winter time here now.  I will change the oil again in the spring.


----------



## pepi

3dshooter80 said:


> Yes, the mill does come with a manual.  As this mill is a variation of the mill that is also sold by Grizzly, Bolton, etc,  the manual is generic.  The difference in the machines appears to be in what user features are incorporated.  For instance, Grizzly's model has a tapping feature.  The PM model can do that too, simply by using the start and stop buttons in conjunction with the forward and reverse functions.  I am sure there are differences in things unseen as well, such as bearing quality.
> 
> I replied to your other post with this same information.  Go to http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Benchtop-Mill-Drill/G0795 and download the manual from there.  ISO 68 is the recommended fluid.  All of these machines such as the PM 932 / 45 that are geared head machines would use the same oil.   There is a stick  from RayC that goes into how to do the oil change for a PM 45 at the top of the forum page.  He states to use either ISO 68 or 32 depending on climate / temperature.  I actually just did the oil change in mine since I have now had it about three months.    I ended up using AW 46 hydraulic oil since it is slightly thinner than the 68 and it is winter time here now.  I will change the oil again in the spring.



Did not realize I had asked this here.... oops

I did notice the tap deal was missing, just the idea that one can tap with a powered machine is off the chart all by itself. I am use to hand taping, power taping will take some getting use to...

It is the old crawl before you walk thing...


----------



## RIMSPOKE

Anybody else taken a look at the website lately and seen this new mill?  It appears to be a RF45 style variant with a slightly smaller table.  15" of x travel, 8.25" of Y travel, 16" of Z travel, with 18" spindle to table!! And, it is a 110 volt machine.  Looks very appealing for $1,800.    

I JUST GOT A PM-727M MYSELF . I GOT THE 3 AXIS READOUT / POWER TABLE FEED MODEL . 
I BOUGH DIRECT AND SAVED A COUPLE HUNDRED OVER THE E-BAY OR AMAZON PRICE . 

I LIKE THE MILL . WHILE IT CLEARLY IS NO BRIDGEPORT , IT IS GREAT FOR THE MACHINING I DO AT HOME 
AND FITS INTO TIGHT QUARTERS REMARKABLY WELL . I CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT A READOUT . 

THE FIRST THING THAT HAD TO GO WAS THE SILLY STAND THAT PM SUPPLIES WITH THE MILL . 
IT IS TOO SHORT AND THE LOCKER WITH A SHELF IS NOT VERY USEFUL . IT ALSO STINKS , LITERALLY . 

I BOUGHT A BABY VIDMAR CABINET WITH 5 DRAWERS . 22" WIDE , 29" DEEP & 33" TALL  . 
THESE CABINETS ARE BUILT LIKE TANKS . IT HAS NO TROUBLE SUPPORTING THE MILL . 
I KEPT THE STOCK CHIP TRAY FOR A DASH OF BLUE . 

THE DRAWERS CAN SUPPORT 100 POUNDS EACH SO ALL OF MY TOOLING , TOOLS AND ACCESSORIES 
HAVE A PLACE NOW . IT IS ALL INSTANTLY ACCESSIBLE &  IT TAKES UP NO EXTRA FLOOR SPACE !  

BEST OF ALL , THE MILL IS 5" HIGHER THAN IT WAS . NO MORE BENDING OVER TO TURN CRANKS . 
AT 6'2" , MY BACK IS LOVIN' IT !


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## Trent.R

Just put down a deposit last thursday for the same mill. And now the weighting begins, im looking at 6 to 8 weeks before the next order comes in.  Like the cabinet buy the way,  it looks good.


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## RIMSPOKE

Just put down a deposit last thursday for the same mill. And now the weighting begins, im looking at 6 to 8 weeks before the next order comes in.  Like the cabinet buy the way,  it looks good. 

I GUESS I GOT MINE AT THE RIGHT TIME , THEY DELIVERED IT WITHIN A WEEK . 

I GOT THE CABINET FROM AN E-BAY SUPPLIER . THEY WANT STRONG MONEY FOR THEM 
BUT SEEM QUITE WILLING TO KNOCK OFF 100 BUCKS IF YOU ASK .  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262018898506?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Trent.R

Yea they are quite proud of those cabinets. How do like the mill so far? Any feed back would be great.


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## RIMSPOKE

I HAVE NOT DONE MUCH TIME WITH IT YET . 

MY WIFE HAD A HEART TRANSPLANT IN NOVEMBER AND I WAS AT THE HOSPITAL EVERY DAY FOR NEARLY TWO MONTHS . 
NOW THAT SHE IS HOME , SHE IS COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON ME FOR NEARLY EVERYTHING . 

I TRY TO SLIP OUT TO THE SHOP WHEN I CAN . 
I USED THE PM-727M TO MAKE ALL THE BRACKETS FOR THE DRO ON MY LATHE . 
LIKE I SAID , IT's NOT A BRIDGEPORT . THE SIZE IS THE BIGGEST FACTOR .  

A Z-AXIS READOUT SEEMS LIKE A LUXURY . HOW DID I WORK SO MANY YEARS WITHOUT ONE ? 
THE EASSON DRO THAT THEY SELL WITH THE PM IS GREAT & IT COMES FULLY SET UP . 

I WOULD RATHER CRANK THE SPEED UP & DOWN THAN CHANGE GEARS . A VFD WOULD BE A GREAT UPGRADE . 

THERE ARE SOME DESIGN FLAWS . 
THE X TABLE LOCKS HANG DOWN . THEY CAN GET CAUGHT & BREAK WHEN CRANKING THE Y TABLE IN .  
THE Y TABLE LOCKS ARE WAY TOO HARD TO REACH & THE LEVERS ARE TOO SHORT . ( I MAY TRY TO REMEDY THIS )  
AS NICE AS IT IS TO HAVE AN ACCORDION WAY PROTECTOR FOR THE Z WAYS , IT IS A CHIP MAGNET & IT HANGS .  
I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE AN ADJUSTABLE STOP FOR THE QUILL ( LIKE A BRIDGEPORT )   

OVERALL I AM PLEASED WITH THE PM . IT IS PRETTY SOLID AND HAS DONE A FINE JOB OF EVERYTHING I HAVE ASKED T TO DO . 
THE PRICE WAS A BIG PART OF MY DECISION . 
ANOTHER WAS THAT IT IS THE MOST MILL I CAN FIT INTO THE SPACE I HAVE TO WORK WITH . 

I JUST SOLD TWO FULLY EQUIPPED BRIDGEPORTS BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE ROOM FOR THEM . 
I DID KEEP A 6" KURT VISE & HAVE IT ON THE PM NOW . MIGHT BE A BIT BIG SO I AM SHOPPING FOR A 4" KURT .


----------



## Trent.R

Thanks for the info, i am sorry to hear about your wife i hope all is well. Im in kinda the same boat with space and going to be trying to make some free room in the shop, luckely i have 6 to 8 weeks to do it, but the weight is going to be hard. I did order the dro as well and am looking forward to trying it out.


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## figgman7

Hi,  newbie here.  I have been a wood guy all my life but got into metal about 5 years ago, when I bought my first lathe, a Bolton CQ9325A. Well let me tell you, I am really enjoying making parts, building jigs and generally learning how to do stuff. Well just like motorcycles and fish tanks and trucks, all you want to do is get a bigger/faster one. Now I am 69 years old (an awkward age) and have some self control over the bigger/faster thing. So I decided I want a milling machine. My shop is half of the 2 car side of a 3 car garage, about 8' wide by 20" long. Drafting table at the end, work bench and storage along the 20" wall and sticking out in the middle is my lathe, drill press and a home made router gantry table that I use to shape the shafts of the walking sticks I make. Well a Bridgeport is out as well as a 45 series and even the Rong Fu 31, all to deep and large (my wife parks her car right behind the shop space). I looked at an X3 a G0704 and PM25. None of these choices really did it for my needs. Then one day I looked at the PM website and discovered the 727M (a little later than you guys), so I called Matt right away, only to find out he was sold out. He said the machines were shipped and I might see one in about 5 weeks. Well, I couldn't get out the credit card fast enough, it was done.  The next day I bought about $500 of tooling and other stuff so I could get a start when the machine arrives (very excited). Also ordered a 4" vise from Matt.                                                              Now I need a little help, maybe I can find it here. Question 1. Is the 4" vise the right size or should I notch it up to a 5"?  2. Has anyone tried to motorize the Z axis ? and  3. I was looking at the DRO PROS Electronica 400 2 axis DRO with the magnetic scales.  Any comments on these questions would be appreciated, especially the Z power feed.  Thanks.


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## compsurge

figgman7 said:


> Hi,  newbie here.  I have been a wood guy all my life but got into metal about 5 years ago, when I bought my first lathe, a Bolton CQ9325A. Well let me tell you, I am really enjoying making parts, building jigs and generally learning how to do stuff. Well just like motorcycles and fish tanks and trucks, all you want to do is get a bigger/faster one. Now I am 69 years old (an awkward age) and have some self control over the bigger/faster thing. So I decided I want a milling machine. My shop is half of the 2 car side of a 3 car garage, about 8' wide by 20" long. Drafting table at the end, work bench and storage along the 20" wall and sticking out in the middle is my lathe, drill press and a home made router gantry table that I use to shape the shafts of the walking sticks I make. Well a Bridgeport is out as well as a 45 series and even the Rong Fu 31, all to deep and large (my wife parks her car right behind the shop space). I looked at an X3 a G0704 and PM25. None of these choices really did it for my needs. Then one day I looked at the PM website and discovered the 727M (a little later than you guys), so I called Matt right away, only to find out he was sold out. He said the machines were shipped and I might see one in about 5 weeks. Well, I couldn't get out the credit card fast enough, it was done.  The next day I bought about $500 of tooling and other stuff so I could get a start when the machine arrives (very excited). Also ordered a 4" vise from Matt.                                                              Now I need a little help, maybe I can find it here. Question 1. Is the 4" vise the right size or should I notch it up to a 5"?  2. Has anyone tried to motorize the Z axis ? and  3. I was looking at the DRO PROS Electronica 400 2 axis DRO with the magnetic scales.  Any comments on these questions would be appreciated, especially the Z power feed.  Thanks.



I like the Shar's 440V 4"x6" (width x opening) vise over the standard 4" x 4". It has a stubby front (no front hold-down casting) so you can mount it close to the front of the table, but an unprotected 60-degree (non-ACME) leadscrew design. I am using it on a high school robotics team Emco FB2 mill. I have a PM-30MV-L and I like the details of my Glacern GSV-440, but find the 4" opening to be limiting fairly often (putting the jaws outboard remedies this, but it takes some time when I forget my hex sockets). On the plus side, the GMT has a shielded ACME leadscrew. For your machine, I think the Shars vise would be a great candidate.

I don't see why you couldn't make a Z power feed.


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## figgman7

compsurge said:


> I like the Shar's 440V 4"x6" (width x opening) vise over the standard 4" x 4". It has a stubby front (no front hold-down casting) so you can mount it close to the front of the table, but an unprotected 60-degree (non-ACME) leadscrew design. I am using it on a high school robotics team Emco FB2 mill. I have a PM-30MV-L and I like the details of my Glacern GSV-440, but find the 4" opening to be limiting fairly often (putting the jaws outboard remedies this, but it takes some time when I forget my hex sockets). On the plus side, the GMT has a shielded ACME leadscrew. For your machine, I think the Shars vise would be a great candidate.
> 
> I don't see why you couldn't make a Z power feed.



I like the 440v also but at the moment it is out of stock. As far as the Z drive, I do plan to make it but can't decide if I should mount to the crank handle or adapt it to the Z screw.  Thanks for your input.


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## ncf250sd

3Dshooter80,
I am a newbie here and I am interested in purchasing a PM 727.  I live in Wake Forest and noticed you are from the Raleigh area, I would love to see your machine or ask you some questions.  Please let me know if this would be possible and I will give you my phone number.  Thank you.  Hi to everyone on this forum.


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## hotrats

First off, I would like to thank 3dshooter80 for his write up of the 727M.
Just wanted to introduce myself, Andy is my name, and I just joined last night. Seems this thread has interested a few because of the mill. Same here.
Also, I'm not too far from the Raleigh area.
I have no machining experience, but am interested. Due to what I have read, and everyone's positive experience, I ordered a PM 727 yesterday. It seemed it may more than fit my needs.
I'll be reading with interest, and probably asking too many questions.
Andyh


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## RIMSPOKE

WHAT'LL YA' KNOW , I'M IN WAKE FOREST TOO !  

SURE , YOU CAN COME OVER AND SEE THE PM MILL . 
GLAD TO HAVE A NEIGHBOR ON THE BOARD .  

MY SHOP IS IN MARGATE OFF OF 98 NEAR THE WF RESERVOIR . 
919-426-3500


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## hotrats

Small world, eh?
Thanks for the invite.


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## hotrats

Hey Rimspoke! Is that a Messerschmitt I spy in your shop photo? Very Cool!!


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## RIMSPOKE

YES IT IS . I HAVE 4 MESSERSCHMITTS & 2 ISETTAS


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## hotrats

Very nice collection.  Appears you have a hand full taking care of all those 3 wheelers!


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## RIMSPOKE

Very nice collection.  Appears you have a hand full taking care of all those 3 wheelers! 
THE ISETTAS HAVE 4 WHEELS AS DOES THE MESSERSCHMITT TIGER TG-500 . 

THIS TG IS BUILT ON A KR-200 TUB AND IS FILLED WITH SPECIALLY MACHINED PARTS . 
I EVEN MADE MY OWN LUG NUTS .


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## ncf250sd

Rimspoke, 

Thank you for the offer.  I have sent you a text message.


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## hotrats

Dang. I thought they were 3 wheelers! But very nice collection.
I have a Lotus Europa that I am rebuilding, with a Ford Zetec engine.
Hence my need (read desire) for a mill.


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## lpeedin

Hi guys.  I am always open to having visitors in the garage to take a look or even try the machines.  I have the PM 727 mill and the PM1127VF-LB lathe.  Plus the little Harbor Freight X2 I started with.  I actually live in Angier, out near Highway 50 and Highway 210 in the McGees Croosroads area.  I won't be around this weekend, but shoot me a PM and we can talk.  I would like to meet some other hobbyists from the area.


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## lpeedin

In regards to the vise, I have the 4" ultra series vise from HHIP.  It is an excellent vise, and much heavier duty than the 4" I got from Matt.   Here is a link to the listing on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/HHIP-3900-220...d=1455211219&sr=8-19&keywords=4"+milling+vise. 

Matt also carries a premium line of vise called Homge. (spelling?)  I have seen comments in various places that they are really nice for the price.  I think the 4" vise is the perfect vise for this machine.  My vise actually hits on the bottom mount of the bellows style chip guard on the column about a half inch before the vise would contact the column.  I am still getting plenty of travel though.  I think the 5" would be too big for this machine.


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## lpeedin

One more thing.  If you want to save some cash on the DRO, you can install the iGaging style magnetic readouts on the X and Y axis' for about $120.  It is a fun project and gives me all the accuracy I will ever need.


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## jer

Hey Chad, or others that have experience with *these *two machines, I'm still waiting to see a smaller, local, cheaper, BP clone. (I should just give up on the son coming back to sell his dads cars and equipment.) I am still considering the 727 and the 932 machines. If you were doing it all over would you go with the 727, or possibly go bigger? I like the power head and PDF on the 932 and the better stand but I like the overall size of the 727. I will get the power x feed either way. I keep going back and forth, both have most of what I think I will/may need for the possible work to be done. If I got the 727 I would like to add power z and either machine will probably get a set of I-gauge DROs. What's your thoughts looking back and to the future? TIA


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## lpeedin

Bigger is always better. If money and space weren't issues, then I would have went straight to a 935 (small bridgeport type mill). The 932 would get you 5" more travel on the X axis, but about the same on the Y axis as the 727.  The 932 and 727 have essentially the same spindle to table clearance. For my milling needs, at this point I'm life, I think I made the right choice.


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## jer

Thanks Chad, it sounds like you are thinking a lot like I am. I think the 727 will do all I need but....bigger is always better. I don't really want a mill the size of a BP in my shop. It would take too much room, room that is needed for other machines and equipment. Rigging a 727 with power z and a few other things are the reason I wonder about the 932. A somewhat modded 727 would be more than enough for any uses in my shop, but the 932 shouldn't need to be modded at all. It has a better stand and lots more weight. I won't use a mill hard just projects that come up around the place and such.

I can buy a lot of tooling for the difference in cost too. Thanks again.


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## lpeedin

jer said:


> Thanks Chad, it sounds like you are thinking a lot like I am. I think the 727 will do all I need but....bigger is always better. I don't really want a mill the size of a BP in my shop. It would take too much room, room that is needed for other machines and equipment. Rigging a 727 with power z and a few other things are the reason I wonder about the 932. A somewhat modded 727 would be more than enough for any uses in my shop, but the 932 shouldn't need to be modded at all. It has a better stand and lots more weight. I won't use a mill hard just projects that come up around the place and such.
> 
> I can buy a lot of tooling for the difference in cost too. Thanks again.



Speaking of a powered z on a 727, here's what I did to my week old 727 today. Been trying for 2 hours to upload the video of the build to YouTube, but giving up for the night. Will try again in the morning to upload it.

View attachment 208151


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## jer

That looks good Lee. I would like to see your build. I'm not up on the electronics to run it but would like to have power z if I get a 727. I have blown out both of my shoulders over the years and think it would help. Thanks for posting this. If you start a thread let me know.


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## jdell42

Just chiming in here.. I am now the proud owner of a PM727M and a PM1228LBVF Lathe.  

Also pointing out I am in Raleigh... seems like a lot of North Carolina based PM Owners!


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## lpeedin

We need to schedule a get together.


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## TheGov

Noob here. Was a day away from ordering a PM-25 mill, and then read posts on this forum and thread. Ended up going with the PM727. 
Then the fun part began. Clearing space, running power, building a base, locating years of government auction purchases of mill accessories, un-creating, riging/hoisting, break in/oil change/clean up, I'm happy to report that chips have been made...and they havent stopped!


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## tweinke

TheGov said:


> Noob here. Was a day away from ordering a PM-25 mill, and then read posts on this forum and thread. Ended up going with the PM727.
> Then the fun part began. Clearing space, running power, building a base, locating years of government auction purchases of mill accessories, un-creating, riging/hoisting, break in/oil change/clean up, I'm happy to report that chips have been made...and they havent stopped!



Welcome aboard! Glad to hear you got your 727 up and running. I also considered the PM-25 and 727 during my shopping for a mill. I think either are good choices. You do realize now that the bug has bitten you are on a long slippery slope of more tooling/ equipment!


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## lpeedin

TheGov said:


> Noob here. Was a day away from ordering a PM-25 mill, and then read posts on this forum and thread. Ended up going with the PM727.
> Then the fun part began. Clearing space, running power, building a base, locating years of government auction purchases of mill accessories, un-creating, riging/hoisting, break in/oil change/clean up, I'm happy to report that chips have been made...and they havent stopped!



Good choice.  Had mine for nearly a year and very happy with it.


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## TheGov

tweinke said:


> . You do realize now that the bug has bitten you are on a long slippery slope of more tooling/ equipment!


Thanx...that bug bit me years ago. (That's why the buying of "the small stuff" in hopes of one day).


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## BFHammer

TheGov said:


> Noob here. Was a day away from ordering a PM-25 mill, and then read posts on this forum and thread. Ended up going with the PM727.
> Then the fun part began. Clearing space, running power, building a base, locating years of government auction purchases of mill accessories, un-creating, riging/hoisting, break in/oil change/clean up, I'm happy to report that chips have been made...and they havent stopped!



Congratulations and welcome!  Of course you realize that without pictures we don't believe a word of it!


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## TheGov

Once I figure out how to, photo will be uploaded...never mind, think I got it


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## tweinke

Now we can believe, LOL. I have had my pm727 for almost a year and have really enjoyed it. before the 727 I used the mill on my Shoptask 3in1 which technically was not too bad a mill but with all the setup and head scratching was a pain to use.


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## STIKBENDR

Anymore issues with the PM 727's?  Mine is to ship this week.


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