# TIG aluminum -- how much does machine quality matter to a beginner?



## j-becker (Aug 17, 2021)

I am a hobbyist and thinking about getting into AC TIG for welding aluminum on some upcoming projects.  I already own a MIG machine (Miller 215) for several years and have used this for steel fabrication.  I did get a few weeks of TIG instruction on welding stainless steel during an internship several decades ago so I have an idea that the learning curve is steep (I assume I have to start over).   I don't want to shell out top dollar and have been looking at the Hobbyist Primeweld/AHP vs. pro-level HTP Invertig 221 machines (the HTP is considerably more, of course).  The HTP is clearly the much nicer pro-level machine and certainly not required for what I am doing.  At least for people who already can TIG weld (my observation is that the better you are, the more you may be able to compensate for sub-optimal tools -- but when you start out good tools can help you by taking out some unwanted variation). 

Here are my questions: does investing into a higher level machine like the HTP make getting into TIG easier than for example a Primeweld/AHP?  Does the "better arc quality" (or low-amp / arc-start / ... capability) that some HTP users highlight make a difference or is it something merely an experienced welder would notice? Can a higher quality machine shorten my learning curve meaningfully?


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## WobblyHand (Aug 17, 2021)

There are others that are far more experienced than myself on this subforum that will advise you.  If you think you will want to weld "thin small stuff" a better machine is for you.  Low amp control is important for the little stuff.  If you are only welding thicker stuff, it might not matter as much.  

I'm a little biased as I have an older HTP Invertig.  Think it is the Invertig 200.  I love it.  Doesn't make me a better welder, that requires lots more arc time.  But it is a nice machine and easy to set up, dial in and use.  I went for a water cooled setup.  That helped a lot.  Air cooled torches always seemed to get too hot too fast for me.  Now I can just wear the nice thin leather gloves and not worry about heat.  

BTW, if you are going to do stainless, I'd recommend getting a dual flow meter.  One is for the torch, and the other is for the back purge.  Makes for much nicer welds.  When welding most everything else, I just turn off the back purge meter.  A dual flow meter wasn't much more expensive than a single (at least when I bought it 10 years ago).


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## pontiac428 (Aug 17, 2021)

I can't speak for those particular machines, but generally the fancier machine would be better for aluminum because you have control over various waveform parameters.  Welding with a pure sine wave is fine and good, but being able to control the balance does improve the quality of the weld.  There are microprocessors in new machines that can do some wonderful algorithmic parameter setting based on arc sensing and other fancy stuff.  Some of it may be a crutch for skill development avoidance, but hey, it's the year 2021.  I still use a very heavy, very rudimentary Miller Dialarc HF for TIG.  It's fabulous for stainless, and functional for aluminum.  To that end, I do more aluminum with a spool gun on my more modern MIG machine these days.  The spool gun isn't as versatile as TIG, but it works really well on the most common things I do.


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## j-becker (Aug 17, 2021)

Thanks for your comments!  As far as I can see, the three machines have a similar level of control over AC balance and parameters.  From a spec perspective, the HTP has more think material capability as Wobblyhand pointed out and better duty cycles.  I have some grasp of what that means for my applications but they would not get me to spend the money on the HTP at this point.  My question is really whether there are some qualities in the better tool that is not just captured in the numbers -- and especially something that is useful to the beginner as opposed to experienced welder.


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## General Zod (Aug 17, 2021)

You're right about not too much difference on paper, very similar.    Internal components are the big difference, as is the low-amp start capability in favor of the HTP.  I wish I had a PW 225 to do a comparison.


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## machPete99 (Aug 17, 2021)

I have an older HTP 220 Invertig but still have difficulty welding aluminum, but I don't do it that often. If you are doing any thickness (say >= 3/16") you might want to step up to something in the 350 amp range as aluminum seems to need much more heat than steel to weld. There is definitely a learning curve with AL, and really need to put the hours in with it.


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## WobblyHand (Aug 17, 2021)

machPete99 said:


> I have an older HTP 220 Invertig but still have difficulty welding aluminum, but I don't do it that often. If you are doing any thickness (say >= 3/16") you might want to step up to something in the 350 amp range as aluminum seems to need much more heat than steel to weld. There is definitely a learning curve with AL, and really need to put the hours in with it.


Only time I made _nice_ Al welds was under the hands of an instructor!  Sure made it seem easy then.  Practice is essential.  

If you haven't done it before, enrolling in a vocational tech night course in welding is amazing.  Cost is pretty low and you get lots of hours on machines, not to mention all the free coupons to practice on.  I did it, even though I knew how to weld.  Very worthwhile experience.


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## j-becker (Aug 18, 2021)

The vocational tech course sounds like a good suggestion.  In briefly looked into this and only found full-time training courses here that were clearly aimed at career welders.  I need to have another look whether there are night courses around here.  How long did the course run?  Was that specific TIG or covered all different kinds of welding?


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## WobblyHand (Aug 18, 2021)

Hmm, think the course was 12 weeks.  It was for all processes.  Spent more time on stick welding than I wanted, but did learn some out of position techniques, so it was good.  If you finished your assignment quickly you could work on other things, including your own projects.  Really depends on the instructor, I'd imagine.  Learned a lot, even though I could weld before starting.  Obviously, TIG was at the end of the course, but there was more than adequate time working on it.

Cost was pretty low, only around $300, and that included all supplies.  Only thing that the student needed to supply was their own hood.  Was a great experience.


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## ericc (Aug 18, 2021)

A lot of those trade oriented classes are fairly regimented.  Make sure that you can get a lot of arc time.  The first course I took, there were a huge number of students.  You got in a long line and tried your hand.  The first time you dipped the tungsten, you were out...for the remainder of the course, but you could watch everyone else weld.  I lasted about 1 inch.  I complained to the instructor and he said sign up for the same course the next quarter and you will get more freedom.  There were some second quarter students floating around, and they seemed to be able to get more arc time.  Unfortunately, the course got discontinued.  Make sure you get some time in, not just instruction and stick welding.  I have a neighbor who took a job at a local fab shop paying peanuts.  They told him that they would train him on TIG real good.  He ended up just carrying around a lot of steel.


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## WobblyHand (Aug 18, 2021)

ericc said:


> A lot of those trade oriented classes are fairly regimented.  Make sure that you can get a lot of arc time.  The first course I took, there were a huge number of students.  You got in a long line and tried your hand.  The first time you dipped the tungsten, you were out...for the remainder of the course, but you could watch everyone else weld.  I lasted about 1 inch.  I complained to the instructor and he said sign up for the same course the next quarter and you will get more freedom.  There were some second quarter students floating around, and they seemed to be able to get more arc time.  Unfortunately, the course got discontinued.  Make sure you get some time in, not just instruction and stick welding.  I have a neighbor who took a job at a local fab shop paying peanuts.  They told him that they would train him on TIG real good.  He ended up just carrying around a lot of steel.


I agree.  My class was regimented.  In a way that was good, especially in the beginning.  There were some students that had never done this at all, and it was important for everyone to learn about basic safety, so everyone would be ok.  You can screw up real bad with oxy-acetylene.  There was a mix of "class instruction time" and arc time.  My class had about 12 students in the beginning.  Some dropped out after 4 weeks.  But there were 6 fume hoods, so no one really had to wait in a big line.  There were many welders to go around.  Everyone got as much arc time as they needed.  The instructor spent time with every student which was very good.  In my case, I was a little spastic in my TIG timing, and he literally helped guide my arms and hands to establish the right "muscle memory" timing.  It helped a lot.  For me, that made the whole course worthwhile.

A big class with a lot more students than machines or hoods is a problem.  You really need hands on experience and sometimes some physical guidance.  In my case, when someone dipped their tungsten, they got to change it and try again.  The instructor would move to the next student.  When they were ready, the instructor would come back.  And yeah, dippers got to grind them.  It was part of the experience.  You learned pretty quick that you were doing something wrong if you were spending all your time grinding rather than welding!


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## keeena (Aug 18, 2021)

I had the same dilemma earlier this year. I ended up going with the Primeweld 225 and their water cooler, which is roughly $1300-ish vs $3500 for the HTP water cooled setup. I really wanted the HTP but in the end relied on Justin's (TFS on YouTube) pretty decent review & recommendation. As a noob, I figured it was a smarter decision and if I end up really putting some hours in: I wouldn't be out a ton of money by selling & buying a more feature-rich setup. Seat time was a higher priority.

So far I've been pretty happy with the machine. Starts, arc stability, features, etc...in both steel and aluminum are pretty good, especially considering the price tag. It does have HF start.

My biggest gripe is the fact that the analog controls do not have any digital readout (other than amperage), which can make dialing in settings a bit of a swag and/or not exactly repeatable. How much this matters depends on your OCD. The fans are always on and somewhat loud, but that's minor at this price point. Both of these are things the HTP does better, as well as a spot weld function and a couple of advanced controls beyond what the PW has. I believe the HTP will reliably go to 4 or 5 amps which the HTP's bottom end is 10-ish amps. I have never used it anywhere near that low.


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## G-ManBart (Aug 18, 2021)

j-becker said:


> I am a hobbyist and thinking about getting into AC TIG for welding aluminum on some upcoming projects.  I already own a MIG machine (Miller 215) for several years and have used this for steel fabrication.  I did get a few weeks of TIG instruction on welding stainless steel during an internship several decades ago so I have an idea that the learning curve is steep (I assume I have to start over).   I don't want to shell out top dollar and have been looking at the Hobbyist Primeweld/AHP vs. pro-level HTP Invertig 221 machines (the HTP is considerably more, of course).  The HTP is clearly the much nicer pro-level machine and certainly not required for what I am doing.  At least for people who already can TIG weld (my observation is that the better you are, the more you may be able to compensate for sub-optimal tools -- but when you start out good tools can help you by taking out some unwanted variation).
> 
> Here are my questions: does investing into a higher level machine like the HTP make getting into TIG easier than for example a Primeweld/AHP?  Does the "better arc quality" (or low-amp / arc-start / ... capability) that some HTP users highlight make a difference or is it something merely an experienced welder would notice? Can a higher quality machine shorten my learning curve meaningfully?


I'm certainly not an expert, but I'm definitely an enthusiast.  If you decide to go with a hobby level machine I would highly suggest the Primeweld over the AHP or any of the other imported machines.  The other machines (I have one) might weld beautifully but their customer service in case of problems is suspect....at best).

I think the typical beginner wouldn't see any real difference...pro or con...between a Primeweld and a more expensive unit like the HTP.  It takes most people a fair amount of practice to just get decent welds on aluminum without trying anything fancy like pulse, different wave forms, etc.  The nicer machine won't hurt, but I don't think it will make things noticeably easier starting out.


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## thomb (Aug 31, 2021)

I had an AHP. I would call myself intermediate at this point (DC TIG at least).  Stick, DC TIG (mild steel, stainless, SI bronze braze) the machine performed very well. I got my money's worth and then some - so I am not bashing the machine at all.  But AC AL was always a struggle, I'd get a great weld and then... garbage ... or garbage and then a great weld. Never felt "electrically consistent"...like something was hit and miss -  same settings, gas flow rate, proper material prep, tungsten, etc.  I gave up on AL, all together.

For the new shop....spend the extra $$$ on a Miller probably, and also go water cooled, if I decide I need TIG capabilities - which who am I kidding of course I do   My limited impression with AL is gotta pay to play - its not forgiving.


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## kb58 (Aug 31, 2021)

X100 regarding thin small aluminum parts. Low-end current control is far more important than the high end. Current control, frequency, waveform, balance, and pulse output matter. If all you're going to weld is small stuff, water cooling isn't really necessary, but you will end up using it for larger stuff, so plan on that as well.


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## Ridetoeat (Sep 2, 2021)

Here is my thoughts after 25 years of tigin...   Jody from WeldingTipsandtricks on you tube taught me how to weld, he has so much content and such good video skills of his arc shots, all perfectly voiced over, it is amazing. I got a top shelf Miller Dynasty Tig machine and anybody with more skills than I can walk all over me with a cheap import.  A Tig welder is very much a person and not a machine. With that said I would look at the ck worldwide mt-200 that I have watched Jody use and sell the last few years on his website. Or maybe the Everlast PowerTIG 210 in the under $2k range. Above that price the it is wide open. I believe those machines are actually worth the money vs Harbor Freight type import china tigs due to qualit and serviceability. I have seen guys test HF tigs with surprising success but I fear having $1000 in one and it is a boat anchor just out of warranty. I am a hobby welded and have mostly used mine over the years to weld chrome moly tube chassis drag cars and a lot of Aluminum along the way, including a 12' 2 person custom pontoon boat with 8" tall 24" wide flat sheet material.  I will tell you if it is something you plan to do regularly it is extremely gratifying once your skills start developing. I would also add if a few months go by between uses you almost have to practice first before you make your welds again, It in my opinion is not nearly as point and shot as a mig gun, "no where close" in fact.  Also if you have older eyes it will be a lot harder to learn because you have to look right into the weld puddle constantly sizing up the distance and position of your tungsten your filler metal and the object you are welding on. Even after 25 years I still tune up on some scrap and when I go to weld I struggle with reduced quality of eyesight and I also find myself mostly restricted to welding on the bench now because of inflexibility in my older body. No more chassis work for me. 1 last thing is I actually find it easier to weld aluminum these days because it is a larger weld and much brighter and my eyes see it better.  Did not mean to write a book but the thoughts just kept coming of what I would like to hear if I was starting today. Doug...


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## Boswell (Sep 3, 2021)

Ridetoeat said:


> Jody from WeldingTipsandtricks on you tube taught me how to weld, he has so much content and such good video skills of his arc shots, all perfectly voiced over, it is amazing.


+1


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## G-ManBart (Sep 3, 2021)

Ridetoeat said:


> Or maybe the Everlast PowerTIG 210 in the under $2k range.


I have an Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT.  I hadn't planned on buying one, but my brand new Everlast stick welder developed problems and after a dozen e-mails and multiple boards replaced they offered me a new machine or full purchase priced credit towards a more expensive machine.  I was curious about TIG, so I upgraded to the 210EXT.  It welds nicely, but no matter what I try I get better results on aluminum with my Miller Syncrowave 250 DX TIGRunner, and that's an old-fashioned transformer machine with just amperage, balance and post-flow settings to play with.

If I was starting out right now I would buy a new PrimeWeld TIG225X for $850 before I'd get the Everlast.  Yes, I'd be giving up the digital display, but the torch and pedal would be better and the customer service far better if something goes wrong.


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