# Grizzly G0670 16x40 Taiwan Variable Speed Lathe



## coolidge

After scouring the interweb for 16x40 lathe choices I have settled on the Grizzly G0670 as the best bang for the buck. On sale in the 2015 Grizzly catalog for $13,495 plus $495 shipping, that's $1,000 off. As is my style when buying a machine I'll be researching the thing to death in this thread.


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## coolidge

I'll be making some comparisons to the Grizzly South Bend 16x40 model 1037 lathe, look familiar? Priced north of $20k there are some differences.


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## coolidge

So I'll start with a quick visual comparison between the G0670 and South Bend...well even though its painted in hideous Grizzly green (Grizzly come on nobody is painting their machines green anymore) I say the G0670 wins the first comparison with its solid one piece cast iron base, vs the two piece base on the SB. I also prefer the black control panels, levers, and knobs on the G0670. The SB has a chuck guard...meh, the SB backsplash is curved...meh and pretty much everything else looks exactly the same doesn't it. lol

There are some differences under the hood. So far I found that the SB has a 7.5 hp motor vs the G0670 5 hp. The SB uses Allen Bradley electronics vs G0670 Taiwan, there are pictures of both electrical cabinets and they are different. Oddly both have a Yasakawa G7 inverter yet the SB inverter is larger hmmm. The SB has NSK or NTN Japanese spindle bearings. The G0670 doesn't say much about the spindle bearings beyond "Top Quality Bearings" noted in the catalog. The SB notes some components are manufactured in Japan and the USA, the G0670 looks to be 100% Taiwan. That's about all I have found so far. I would guess that if I could compare the inspection sheets for both lathes the allowed tolerances for the SB would be tighter. In any case I think the value proposition of the G0670 wins. If need be I could upgrade bearings and electronics at some point.

Here's what the president of Grizzly had to say about the G0670...


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## rhchipper

coolidge said:


> I'll be making some comparisons to the Grizzly South Bend 16x40 model 1037 lathe, look familiar?
> 
> If you are going north of 20k you might as well pop for a Haas TL-1.


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Where's the popcorn...



Bill hey feel free to share any info you have dug up on the Pratt Burnerd chucks in this thread. I haven't had a chance to look into them so I'd appreciate any info you could share. I'll be looking at the SamChully, Bison, and if Darkzero starts trouble I'll post some Schunk chucks.


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## coolidge

rhchipper I decided a CNC mill is priority #1 vs a CNC lathe. Also, the TL1 optioned ballooned to $33k plus $2,500 sales tax plus $5,000 Gibscam plus $3,000 shipping and rigging plus $2500 RPC = $46,000 ouch!


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## roadie33

I see the South Bend has a Micrometer stop on it. 
That must be what the extra $7000 is for.


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## coolidge

I spy a machined slot for a DRO cable (red arrow)...(ring) hello DroPro's...Also note the long thick base under the compound slide, that was one of the reasons I liked this lathe over the G0509G. I like the black handles, I don't like the satin chrome finish on my G4003G it feels unpleasant. Also looks like they put a way wiper on the front of the cross slide.

On a side note I'm waiting to hear back from Grizzly the width of the compound and the distance from the top of the compound to the lathe center height, this is for confirming the Dorian CXA is the correct QCTP. They make a CA that also fits 16 inch lathes but it was too large for the G0509G.

Update: The Yasakawa G7 drive is larger on the SB because it has a 7.5hp motor vs the G0670 5hp...duh!


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## Harv

roadie33 said:


> I see the South Bend has a Micrometer stop on it.
> That must be what the extra $7000 is for.



Yeah, I almost bought a South Bend lathe. I wish I would have.


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## coolidge

roadie33 said:


> I see the South Bend has a Micrometer stop on it.
> That must be what the extra $7000 is for.



Would it be mean if I ordered a replacement Micrometer stop for the SB and put it on the G0670?


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## tmarks11

Coolidge, you might email Matt at Precision Matthews.  1.5 years ago, he quoted me the RML-1440 for $12750, and the RML-1640 for $13750 (free shipping). Of course, that might have been for the non-inverter versions, and it looks like the Grizzly version is the RML-1640V.

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1660G.html

Wrt Grizzly vs. SB, they spent a lot more time on bondo of the casting before painting.  The surface finish is a lot nicer on the SB...  I am sure there are other difference more than skin deep, but the SB is definitely prettier looking.  They have both those machines side by side in Bellingham.


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## darkzero

coolidge said:


> I'll be looking at the SamChully, Bison, and if Darkzero starts trouble I'll post some Schunk chucks.


I personally have never heard of Samchully chucks until you posted about them. I've seen those ROTA chucks online, they seem to be aimed towards CNC machines but that's doesn't matter I suppose. I still favor Pratt Burnerd chucks though. Hearing what I've heard about Bison in the last few years, I doubt I would ever buy one again. Not that they don't make good chucks anymore, I just don't think think I would consider them going foward.

Pratt Burnerd & Kalamazoo (edit) is what I'd be looking at if I were to buy today. And for something more affordable I'd go with Fuerda/Gator. Yeah I know they're China but they are very decent chucks. Ever notice how many of their chucks these days look exactly like Bison? 

In fact I'm about to purchase another Gator chuck. I'm an idiot for second guessing myself, I recently bought a TMX Set-Tru chuck, figured it would be comparable to Fuerda's quality, & would be just a Chinese copy of the Bison-Bial line since they are the US importer of them. Damn was I wrong. Very disappointed, boxed that crap back up & shipped it back this morning.


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## coolidge

So it looks likes it 'CE' certified that's something. ISO 9001 Factory, CSA, ETL, UL sorry Grizzly says no. From what I call that control panel on top pivots up out of the way on hinges. Its a fairly plane headstock with the gear change controls removed, that's not a bad thing. Anyone else like the idea of mounting a second E-Stop button on the tailstock side of the base out of the line of fire? If things have gone wrong and things are flying out of the chuck I don't want to be reaching up/back to this E-Stop button.


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## darkzero

coolidge said:


> Anyone else like the idea of mounting a second E-Stop button on the tailstock side of the base out of the line of fire? If things have gone wrong and things are flying out of the chuck I don't want to be reaching up/back to this E-Stop button.



No need, there's a foot brake for that.


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## coolidge

Hey tmarks11 I have been in touch with Matt on the PM RML 1640V. Matt notes "single phase power" on his website vs 3 phase power required for the Grizzly. I don't know if that's true for the PM variable speed lathes or not, I emailed him just now to find out. Note I'm not discussing his pricing as he has chosen not to publish the price so I want to respect that.


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## coolidge

darkzero said:


> I personally have never heard of Samchully chucks until you posted about them. I've seen those ROTA chucks online, they seem to be aimed towards CNC machines but that's doesn't matter I suppose. I still favor Pratt Burnerd chucks though. Hearing what I've heard about Bison in the last few years, I doubt I would ever buy one again. Not that they don't make good chucks anymore, I just don't think think I would consider them going foward.
> 
> Pratt Burnerd & Kitagawa is what I'd be looking at if I were to buy today. And for something more affordable I'd go with Fuerda/Gator. Yeah I know they're China but they are very decent chucks. Ever notice how many of their chucks these days look exactly like Bison?
> 
> In fact I'm about to purchase another Gator chuck. I'm an idiot for second guessing myself, I recently bought a TMX Set-Tru chuck, figured it would be comparable to Fuerda's quality, & would be just a Chinese copy of the Bison-Bial line since they are the US importer of them. Damn was I wrong. Very disappointed, boxed that crap back up & shipped it back this morning.



Samchully manufactured chucks for Kitagawa for many years, from what I read they know chuck manufacturing pretty well. Samchully is currently the manual chuck Haas sells for their TL1 CNC lathes. I like the two piece jaw design and you get both hard jaws and soft jaws. I priced a 9" for $1,160. http://www.travers.com/63-714-051


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## darkzero

My mistake, I meant to say Kalamazoo. Kitagawas are nice but they are very expensive! I would never spend that much money for a chuck.


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## coolidge

darkzero said:


> No need, there's a foot brake for that.



Ahahaha I hate it when darkzero makes me look stupid, gaaawwwd


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## darkzero

coolidge said:


> Ahahaha I hate it when darkzero makes me look stupid, gaaawwwd



Nah, never. Just trying to make sure you don't try to do anything that's not necessary. I wish people would do the same for me too. I'm always being an idiot.


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## coolidge

Here's a nice aerial shot, its the SB but its a nice shot of the T slots in the cross slide and triple V ways. Ahem that SB taper attachment...hold onto your socks...$1,675 ouch!


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## coolidge

darkzero said:


> Nah, never. Just trying to make sure you don't try to do anything that's not necessary. I wish people would do the same for me too. I'm always being an idiot.



I would have wired it up to then posted the mod on the forum all proud of it you saved me  Somehow this is Bills fault! (Coolidge wanders off in search of his brain)


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> Bill hey feel free to share any info you have dug up on the Pratt Burnerd chucks in this thread. I haven't had a chance to look into them so I'd appreciate any info you could share. I'll be looking at the SamChully, Bison, and if Darkzero starts trouble I'll post some Schunk chucks.



Don't have the lathe yet (takes a week to get from PA to Denver, then another week to go 30 miles to Longmont? Sheesh...) but I can tell you the fit and finish on this thing is excellent. Some minor dings on the adapter plate had to be stoned out, but it too looks impressive (and solid steel). Shiny rainbow finish on the entire thing. These things are rather heavy too, but that won't matter once it's mounted.

Here's the test certificate. Maybe someone can explain what I'm looking at here. 




I have the baby SB which has never needed a single adjustment, and have played with a 14". As someone here said "these things are built like family heirlooms", but I suspect that extra quality and fit/finish would be lost on most people.


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## coolidge

Bill based on the test certificate that chuck is basically scrap, I'll give you $50 for it plus shipping to help you out.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> Bill based on the test certificate that chuck is basically scrap, I'll give you $50 for it plus shipping to help you out.



I have a host of friends here...


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## coolidge

Update from Grizzly:

Width of the cross slide = 6 inches
Width of the compound = 3.875 inches

The distance from the top of the G0670 compound to the lathe centerline is 1.50 inches. That's .200 less than the G0509G but well within the range of the Dorian CXA QCTP. Here's the specs on the Dorian CXA...

Minimum tool height 1.25 inches
Maximum tool height 2.25 inches
Ideal tool height 1.625 inches


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> I have a host of friends here...



You do realize that if you don't post pics of the Pratt chuck soon I will begin mocking you right?


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## wrmiller

I just unboxed my Dorian BXA last night. That's a lot of tool post. Can't imagine what a CXA looks like.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> You do realize that if you don't post pics of the Pratt chuck soon I will begin mocking you right?



Already did.


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Already did.



I must be blind I can't find the pics on any of the forums.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> I must be blind I can't find the pics on any of the forums.



/Precision Mathews/My 1340GT, page 6.


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## coolidge

Found it bill thanks. Where did you buy it I searched on-line and it seems like the Pratt Burnerd are not sold by many suppliers, MSC but dang their prices.


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## wrmiller

Griz. Cost is the same for Bison or Pratt. 

Bought my Dorian from them too. Same price as the Aloris.


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## coolidge

Grizzly cool. I tried to order some stuff on Enco the other day when there was a 20% off sale plus no sales tax to me on Enco but Grizzly still had them crushed on price.


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## wrmiller

So...have you bought that bad boy yet? What's the hold up?


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## tmarks11

Coolidge, I almost went down the path you are going down.

I started looking at the G0709 14x40... and than decided I would be sorry if I didn't get something with a bit more mass, so started thinking about the G0509G... and then heard about the RML 1440 lathes, and thought that would be awesome...

And then I figured out for the extra $$$ I would spend on the RML1440, I could buy a G0709... and a Tormach 1100 cnc mill (which I did).  And then I could buy the Tormach slant bed cnc lathe in another year or two (which I haven't done yet).  Yes, not industrial machines, but I figured I would have them NOW instead of someday in the distant future, which was all my lusting after Haas mini mills was going to result.  I figured that if the day came where I was making money with my machines, that would be the point to step up to an industrial cnc machine.


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## coolidge

Bill - the wait is on for a 10% off coupon, I'll probably give it 3-6 weeks since I have another machine due in any time now and I'll be dealing with that.

tmarks11 - I hear you but having run Haas and Mori Seiki CNC machines a Tormach is not in my future.

Hmmm its 11pm I'm half tempted to get up in a few hours and trek the hell up near Canada to visit the Grizzly Bellingham showroom tomorrow, stay tuned.


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## tmarks11

March Wood Working Journal had a 10% grizzly coupon in it (subscription version only); if you go haunt one of the wood working forums (like Sawmill Creek or Woodnet), maybe you can find someone who will give you the code.

I am not a subscriber; just read the discussion on Saw Mill Creek forum.


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## tmarks11

Why go for the RML when you can just go for the original.  In our neck of the woods as well (Boeing surplus):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clausing-Co...776?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a219e440


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## coolidge

LOL damn Boeing ran that lathe into the ground.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> LOL damn Boeing ran that lathe into the ground.



Yea, I was kinda thinking the same thing. But then Boeing doesn't let their machines just sit around. That old horse has some mileage on it.


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## tmarks11

ahh, it not that bad.  A machine wholesaler will snap it up, slap a coat of gray paint on everything that doesn't move (and some on stuff that moves) and sell it for triple the price as "professionally refurbished".


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## wrmiller

Hey, I know that guy!


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## coolidge

Update:

1. I took a shot at a Grizzly 10% off coupon by subscribing to Woodworkers Journal, it was only $10 for the subscription. There's a coupon in the March/April issue that expires April 13th I think, they said allow 4-6 weeks for the first issue so we'll see.
2. I ruled out driving up there, paying cash and picking up the machine in person, if you purchase from the store you have to pay sales tax. Plus it has started to rain here, tiss the season in the Pacific NW.

3. Rigging - I may get smart and just hire a rigger to deal with this. I can have it shipped to the rigger and they can haul it to my house and manage it with the proper equipment. I checked my local tool rental, wow lame their fork lift maxes out at 3,000 lbs and their pallet jack max is 2,500 lbs. Dang the Harbor Freight pallet jack will handle 5,000 lbs.

With the above in motion I'll turn my attention to tooling and work holding. I guess I also need to get the G4003G ready for sale.


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## wrmiller

What, you're not going to keep the 4003? 

I've got some ideas for the small SB, and will likely use it like a second op machine. I like the idea of hiring the rigger. Don't want to damage your new toy (or you for that matter) just trying to get it home.

So soon you can make some uber-beefy half shafts out of unobtainium for that Raptor.


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## coolidge

Bill the G4003G is going up for sale, someone will get a hellava deal on that package. In fact I may go take some photos today and throw it on craigslist and see what happens.

In other news to protect my investment I purchased some 'lathe defense' yesterday, an *H&K P30S V3 in .40 S&W*


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> Bill the G4003G is going up for sale, someone will get a hellava deal on that package. In fact I may go take some photos today and throw it on craigslist and see what happens.
> 
> In other news to protect my investment I purchased some 'lathe defense' yesterday, an *H&K P30S V3 in .40 S&W*



Why not offer it to the members here as well? Just a suggestion.


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## tmarks11

Coolidge-

I don't know if this applies to you, but Grizzly current has a 10% off coupon available to military active, veterans, and retirees.

https://grizzlyindustrial.sheerid.com


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## coolidge

Update: The Grizzly G0670 is again the leader after a brief bit if excitement regarding the single phase RML 1640V. The RML 1640V looks to only have double V ways vs the Grizzly triple V ways, 8-10 weeks for delivery, and pricing. Even with the additional $1,800 I'll have to spend for a RPC for the Grizzly, with no sales tax, $495 shipping, its already on sale for $1,000 off plus another 10% off if I can get a Grizzly discount code well none of the other RML lathe brands are price competitive with Grizzly. So its back to the waiting game for a 10% off Grizzly coupon.

Related news

1. There's no sales tax if shipped to Oregon.
2. Jim connected me with a local rental place that rents the hydraulic scissor lift trailers for $75 a day.
3. I spoke with grizzly, yes if you buy 2 or more machines totaling over $5,000 they will consider giving you a discount but they said it wouldn't be anywhere close to the 10$ off coupon.
4. As I am not a veteran the current 10% off for veterans is not an option.

While I'm waiting I'll distract myself taking delivery of a large crate tomorrow!!


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## wrmiller

And you still haven't told me what the heck it is yet!!


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## JimDawson

coolidge said:


> While I'm waiting I'll distract myself taking delivery of a large crate tomorrow!!



Bill, that's what it is, just a large crate!!!!


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## coolidge

Hint this is also inbound!


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## wrmiller

Well...I recognize that power feed.


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## coolidge

I ordered 2 of them for X and Y. I think I have a spare 10hp gas engine for the Z axis.


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## raven7usa

Wow! How many income tax refund checks did you get?


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## coolidge

There is no income tax in WA state, yeah baby!!


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## coolidge

Pratt Burnerd chuck...the 10" is only $100 more than the 8" is there really any reason not to go with the 10"? Other than its 23 lbs heavier. Both list the same minimum diameter 3/16 inch. Spindle bore on the 10" is also 3" which might come in handy.


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Pratt Burnerd chuck...the 10" is only $100 more than the 8" is there really any reason not to go with the 10"? Other than its 23 lbs heavier. Both list the same minimum diameter 3/16 inch. Spindle bore on the 10" is also 3" which might come in handy.


Do you see yourself frequently turning items that large?

Big chuck = very heavy = [me] less willing to swap chucks as often as I should to get the right one for the job you are doing.

But I also have back problems, so that might play into my liking using a 6" chuck instead of the 10" 3 jaw and 12" 4 jaw I have used in the past.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> Pratt Burnerd chuck...the 10" is only $100 more than the 8" is there really any reason not to go with the 10"? Other than its 23 lbs heavier. Both list the same minimum diameter 3/16 inch. Spindle bore on the 10" is also 3" which might come in handy.



I have the 8 1/4" Pratt three jaw as you know. Griz says the chuck weighs 44 lbs., but with the steel back plate on there this thing is crowding 60 lbs. easily. Another 20+ lbs. and I'd be making a chuck carrier that I can use with a shop hoist to lift that puppy. But I'm probably older than you.


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## darkzero

coolidge said:


> Hint this is also inbound!



Looks like you got an 8" or larger tailstock. Just a recommendation before you seat that MT2 center. Mill a slot so you can use a drift to remove the center when ever you'll need to. These types of tailstocks do not have a means to pop the center out. On the 6" it's not important as it's an integrated part of the unit.


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## tmarks11

Coolidge:

I visited your future lathe this morning.    The South Bend version is prettier.... but probably not $6k prettier...

What is interesting is that plastic gear in there.  I wonder if it makes it run quieter, or if it is just sacrificial?


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## coolidge

DZ thanks for the suggestion that makes sense.

Tmarks...dude you are awesome thanks for the pics. AS FOR THE PLASTIC GEAR what the freaking hell??? On a $14k lathe??? I am not happy about that. (Coolidge wanders off to look at Haas lathes)


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## coolidge

Tmarks did it look substantially larger than the 12x36 and 14x40 lathes?


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Tmarks...dude you are awesome thanks for the pics



Just trying to push you over the cliff... 

I drive by Bellingham at least once or twice a month, so I had to stop by. One of my trips, a lathe followed me home.  My wife was surprised... I don't know why.  



coolidge said:


> Tmarks did it look substantially larger than the 12x36 and 14x40 lathes?


Oh yes.  It makes the typical 12x36 lathes look like toys.  When I bought my G0709G, I had been using a Jet GH1440ZX (similarly massive to the G0607).  The 12x36 class machines (including my G0709G) felt tiny in comparison.  Now a year later, the G0709G seems like a decent size.

Fit and finish is substantially better... it make the G0509G look crude.


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## coolidge

I will definitely drive up there to look this lathe over in person before purchasing. What sucks is Bellingham isn't open on the weekends so that means taking off work and dealing with that horrendous traffic. I realize the plastic gear is there to save the lathe in case of a crash but I'll be honest I was repulsed at the sight of the thing. Its funny, looking at the pics you posted of the lathe without a frame of reference for size, it looked kind of dinky. lol


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> What sucks is Bellingham isn't open on the weekends so that means taking off work and dealing with that horrendous traffic.



Yeah, would be nice if they at least were open one Sat a month.  But I think 95% of their sales are internet.  Their Bellingham showroom never has more than a couple customers in it, so I guess they don't really see that expanded hours would increase their business.

If you can stand waiting 6-7 weeks: Grizzly Tent Sale.  2nd May (Saturday).  Or you could fly to the Missouri or PA showroom; they are open on Saturdays.


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## Doubleeboy

Coolidge, it is dinky, when you consider that old American iron from Pacemaker, Monarch etc would be about 5000 lbs for a 16 x 40, but of course an Old American lathe that size would actually swing 18 or 19.    I spent a lot of time on a 1938 Monarch 16 inch lathe, that makes the Grizzly look like a toy.  I might be the fool but they got my money today on one.   Bought a small wood working sander to make the 2 tool deal.  Got $650 off, it will be here in 2 weeks when my rigger gets back from vacation.

michael


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## coolidge

Congrats Michael, I look forward to your review and its nice to know mine will be forever newer than yours. ;-)

So that's about 5% off, its nice to know that if my scheming plan to get a 10% off discount code fails I can at least negotiate 5% off. I hear you on the industrial lathes, I keep eyeing the Mori Seiki and its licensed by Mori twin the Hwacheon both about 5,000 lbs. A new Hwacheon costs like $37k though  About a year ago my brother found a used Mori for sale in California, it was in like new condition and only $9k someone snatched it up quick.


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## coolidge

tmarks yes I saw they are having a tent sale that's only about 6 weeks out, I'm in no big hurry. Then...there's that Haas Mini Mill 2...(Coolidge begins chanting, refreshes his Resist Haas spell)


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## tmarks11

Doubleeboy said:


> Coolidge, it is dinky, when you consider that old American iron from Pacemaker, Monarch etc would be about 5000 lbs for a 16 x 40, but of course an Old American lathe that size would actually swing 18 or 19.


This machine is 3700# (which is twice the weight of the typical 12x36), so I wouldn't call it "dinky" wrt a 5000# Monarch.  Smaller, but not that much smaller.

Congrats on the machine, looking forward to hearing about it.  The ones that come in boxes sometimes aren't as pretty as the ones on the showroom floor (shocking, I know).



coolidge said:


> tmarks yes I saw they are having a tent sale that's only about 6 weeks out, I'm in no big hurry.


Maybe someone will break some knobs off the G0670, and you can get one at the tent sale... probably not, though.


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## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> Maybe someone will break some knobs off the G0670, and you can get one at the tent sale... probably not, though.



Well you do drive by there twice a month, I can ship you a small ball peen hammer?


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## coolidge

I picked up a 5000 lb rated pallet jack today to heave the big lathe around, I stacked a 20% off coupon on top of the already $40 off sale, $207.99 out the door. Also needed it to move that big crate, I smell cosmoline.


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## wrmiller




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## tmarks11

Bill-

What is in the box? I must have missed the play-by-play announcements of its travel across the Pacific...


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## Doubleeboy

coolidge said:


> Congrats Michael, I look forward to your review and its nice to know mine will be forever newer than yours. ;-)
> 
> So that's about 5% off, its nice to know that if my scheming plan to get a 10% off discount code fails I can at least negotiate 5% off. I hear you on the industrial lathes, I keep eyeing the Mori Seiki and its licensed by Mori twin the Hwacheon both about 5,000 lbs. A new Hwacheon costs like $37k though  About a year ago my brother found a used Mori for sale in California, it was in like new condition and only $9k someone snatched it up quick.[/QUOTE



If you have your heart set on a Mori, Tom Greer is the guy to talk to he and his family were the big Mori dealers back in the day in SoCal and his father is the one who arranged for the Hwacheon to be made to Mori specs when Mori quit doing manual machines.  Any Mori in near new condition is going to sell in a heartbeat for under 10K.   Check out the pristine one owner one Tom has for sale on his site, its over 20K.    I thought hard about it, but its just too big for my situation.   Tom is a straight shooter and well respected, if you want one, he is the guy.

michael


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## coolidge

Yes I visit the Greer website frequently, to drool. Hey lets talk VFD's...so is there any reason I could not use a 10hp VFD to power this lathe vs a rotary phase converter? I mean what does the lathe care where the 25 amps of 3 phase power comes from. Set it to 60hz and I don't see why the lathe wouldn't be happy with that. I can get a 10hp VFD for substantially less than a RPC.


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## JimDawson

You could use the VFD to drive the spindle motor only, but if you are planning on using it by connecting it to the main power connection on the lathe and running it that way, it won't work.  VFDs don't like to be disconnected from a motor.


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## coolidge

Thanks Jim, I figured something like that otherwise RPC companies would be out of business by now.


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## darkzero

coolidge said:


> Also needed it to move that big crate



How did you move around the first one?


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## Doubleeboy

coolidge said:


> Yes I visit the Greer website frequently, to drool. Hey lets talk VFD's...so is there any reason I could not use a 10hp VFD to power this lathe vs a rotary phase converter? I mean what does the lathe care where the 25 amps of 3 phase power comes from. Set it to 60hz and I don't see why the lathe wouldn't be happy with that. I can get a 10hp VFD for substantially less than a RPC.



I bought a 10hp Phase craft rotary converter panel with magnetic switch, cost about 200, then I bought a used 10hp 3 phase motor, put new bearings in it.  So for 400 bucks I am set except for some overhead wiring from rotary converter to lathe.  I was told by numerous folks that I did not want to try powering the lathe with a VFD in front of a VFD drive.   They will talk to each other and have issues.   The folks that made the G7 inverter told me I could try and run it on single phase but they doubted it was oversized enough to pull off, said I likely would not have full power even if it worked.   One guy I talked to who has owned the lathe since they first came out runs his on a 8hp rotary phase converter with no issues, although he says he does not take huge cuts in his use of machine.   Why Grizzly pitches a 30 hp rfc for this machine is a mystery.  10 ought to do fine, i will find out in a few weeks.

Regarding the plastic gear on lathe, ya its odd, but Ford and others use plastic gears in the trannies of 3/4 ton pickups so maybe not such a bad thing.  Seeing as its only the one gear I suspect its for good reason and not just economy.  My guess is it makes engaging the feed gears easier and as mentioned quieter.    If it becomes a wear item, I bet Boston gear makes something that would work or shudder we could fire up the dividing head and build our own.

michael


----------



## coolidge

darkzero said:


> How did you move around the first one?



I didn't it was too heavy. I was barely able to lift it just a few inches with my tractor to get the pallet out from under it. The pallet is too wide for the engine hoist. This time I'm going to wheel it over under my chain hoist with the pallet jack. The real issue is bolting the old mill I'm returning back to the pallet, it bolts down from under the pallet so I'll need the chain hoist for that job and the pallet jack to wheel it out of my way until the trucking company takes it away.


----------



## coolidge

Doubleeboy said:


> I bought a 10hp Phase craft rotary converter panel with magnetic switch, cost about 200, then I bought a used 10hp 3 phase motor, put new bearings in it.  So for 400 bucks I am set except for some overhead wiring from rotary converter to lathe.  I was told by numerous folks that I did not want to try powering the lathe with a VFD in front of a VFD drive.   They will talk to each other and have issues.   The folks that made the G7 inverter told me I could try and run it on single phase but they doubted it was oversized enough to pull off, said I likely would not have full power even if it worked.   One guy I talked to who has owned the lathe since they first came out runs his on a 8hp rotary phase converter with no issues, although he says he does not take huge cuts in his use of machine.   Why Grizzly pitches a 30 hp rfc for this machine is a mystery.  10 ought to do fine, i will find out in a few weeks.
> 
> Regarding the plastic gear on lathe, ya its odd, but Ford and others use plastic gears in the trannies of 3/4 ton pickups so maybe not such a bad thing.  Seeing as its only the one gear I suspect its for good reason and not just economy.  My guess is it makes engaging the feed gears easier and as mentioned quieter.    If it becomes a wear item, I bet Boston gear makes something that would work or shudder we could fire up the dividing head and build our own.
> 
> michael



Well they are just driving the feed screw with that plastic gear not the spindle so that made me feel a bit better. Yes Grizzly is smoking crack on their recommended RPC.


----------



## Doubleeboy

Oops I forgot I still need to add a 3phase disconnect fuse panel between converter and lathe, so probably another hundred there.  Going to cobble up a shop built wood box for rotary phase converter motor to sit on, with the inside used to hold bags of lead shot to keep it from walking around, I hate bolting stuff to floors and walls, as soon as i do I find i want to move it 2 inches.  Should help keep things quiet and the RFC motor will be away from the major chip producers, plus in TEFC so should be fine.

michael


----------



## coolidge

Keeping the RPC away from flying chips and mess duly noted. The American Rotary AD RPC I'm looking at comes with a number of options, some of this electrical may be cheaper locally...though I always feel like I got mugged after doing an electrical parts run around here.

https://www.americanrotary.com/products/view/ad-digital-smart-series 

Options

Outdoor enclosure
Wireless remote start
Wired remote start
3 Phase panel mount breaker
Panel mount twist lock receptical
Cord plugs and recepticals
Rubber isolation pads
Single phase load center
Three phase load center
Three phase disconnect switch


----------



## Doubleeboy

be careful with complete RFC deals..... lots of them use a cheap Chinese motor.   Much better to get old USA built motor that has been dipped, better insulation, and most important, quieter running.  Your local recycle center, power company or craiglist might be good places to find one.   I just asked around and a guy in my metal working group had one, USA made, needed bearings and has one bent foot but its nice and quiet running, which is important to me in a small shop.   I wonder who builds the motors for American Rotary?


----------



## tmarks11

Doubleeboy said:


> be careful with complete RFC deals..... lots of them use a cheap Chinese motor.  ... I wonder who builds the motors for American Rotary?



Baldor.  These are apparently the real deal.

https://www.americanrotary.com/about/advantage


----------



## coolidge

*Made in USA* GENTEC/Baldor VIT™ Generator - Our engineering departments spent over 2 years engineering the perfect generator for a Rotary Phase Converter, and we are currently undergoing the patent process. Our custom generator is one of a kind in our industry and outperforms the standard motor/idlers found on a typical phase converter.

Our VIT™ generator features Variable Impendence Technology. VIT™ provides a Soft Start using only 1/3 of the starting current to get the idler generator started unlike the traditional off-the-shelf 3 phase motors found in typical phase converters. The VIT™ provides precise power, runs cooler for longer life and can run continuously from a no load condition through full load.


----------



## wrmiller

I think you should just put in your own sub-station in the back yard and call it good...


----------



## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> I think you should just put in your own sub-station in the back yard and call it good...



(channeling Curly from the Three Stooges) Oh a wise guy eh (gives Bill the two finger poke in the eye)


----------



## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Also needed it to move that big crate, I smell cosmoline.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Coolidge-
> 
> What was in the crate?  Enquiring minds want to know.
> 
> Just angled enough I can't make out what the writing on the side says.


----------



## coolidge

Hey tmarks11 its a Charter Oak 12z Mill, we determined that the original mill could not be salvaged and so they sent me a replacement mill. I just spent 6 hours uncrating the new one then re-crating the old one for return shipping I'm beat.

(Hello, Outback Steakhouse, throw a fillet on the grill I'll be there shortly)


----------



## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Hey tmarks11 its a Charter Oak 12z Mill, we determined that the original mill could not be salvaged and so they sent me a replacement mill.


bummer, didn't realize you were having so many problems with your mill.  Hopefully the second one will work out.


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## wrmiller

That thing was possessed. Here's hoping the new one is better than mine (which works great).


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## coolidge

Hey tmarks I noticed the pictures on Grizzly's website show this lathe painted bright white yet in the pics you posted it looks like a cream color, was that just white balance on your camera or was cream the actual color?


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## tmarks11

I think it is cream colored.  But that doesn't really mean anything, as th model on their showroom floor has probably set there for the last 6 years, and the new ones might be painted a different color.


----------



## Endamur

coolidge said:


> Yes I visit the Greer website frequently, to drool. Hey lets talk VFD's...so is there any reason I could not use a 10hp VFD to power this lathe vs a rotary phase converter? I mean what does the lathe care where the 25 amps of 3 phase power comes from. Set it to 60hz and I don't see why the lathe wouldn't be happy with that. I can get a 10hp VFD for substantially less than a RPC.



Coolidge,  I am also looking at purchasing the G0670 lathe from Grizzly and have also done a lot of research on it and its competitors.  I actually went to the factory in Taiwan where the Grizzly G0670 and G0740 are built.  When I was there, they were building a batch of  Kent Lathes, Acra and they have a separate building where they build all the Southbends.... unfortunately they were not building either of the high end Grizzly lathes when I was there.   FYI, the same factory also builds the high end Jet lathes.  I looked at the Kent lathes also... I visited them in California and went to a dealer in Toronto who brought me to an airplane landing gear manufacturing company that were using them to manufacture critical components for fixed wing aircraft landing gear... impressive.   I still think that the Grizzly G0670 is the best value for price... you have variable speed, constant surface speed control (if thats important to you).  I know that the Kent versions say that they will run off single phase, but the same Yaskawa G7 VFD is in both.  The G0670 has  a pressurised oil system for the headstock.  The oil pump is a 3 phase pump. Also the coolant pump is 3 phase and that is one of the reasons that you can't run this lathe from single phase.  You could of course swap out the oil and coolant pumps for single phase versions or put a small VFD in front of each of the two pumps......but thats just adding to the expense.  I think that I will go with a rotary phase converter but I don't think that I will buy the 30HP grizzly recommended one.


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## coolidge

Doubleeboy any news on your inbound G0670?


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## Doubleeboy

Grizzly told me they would ship today.  I figure it comes in late Friday or Monday.  My rigger should be back in town this weekend so I suspect we will have it sitting in shop sometime next week.  I have made room for it, just barely.   Probably be another week before its leveled and wired up, I am waiting to install lathe before doing the final overhead run of wire and drop down to motor.  Running conduit on ceilings when you have a bad back blows, so I am waiting till lathe is here so I can drop it right where it needs to be.  RFC and disconnect (fused) will be on wall about 10' away near panel.  I should be able to run both lathes if needed, about 2 steps away from each other, across I bay of garage.

michael


----------



## tmarks11

You guys are an inspiration to me.

You know what they say: "If your wife doesn't burst out crying when she steps into your shop, than you don't have much of a shop"....


----------



## coolidge

Honey I ordered this new lathe and got a free pair of diamond earrings, you want them?


----------



## coolidge

Update: Still no joy on a 10% off discount code, there's about 2 weeks left on the one in the March/April issue of Wood Working, I'm checking the mailbox daily.


----------



## coolidge

Doubleeboy any updates?


----------



## Doubleeboy

coolidge said:


> Doubleeboy any news on your inbound G0670?




Its here and parked in my shop, errrrr.. 1 bay of 3 bay garage.  It is a toy compared to old American iron, it weights 100 lbs less than my 12.5 x 20 Monarch but it seems okay, not under power yet.  Lathe was built in Sept 2012, so the cosmoline is old and a hassle to get off, it is very hard.   The non ground surfaces between ways are all badly rusted, that will be hours of scrubbing with brass wire brush and flooding with solvent, what a joy.   The 3 jaw looks very nice, I chucked up a stub with two diameters on it and  turned spindle by hand, run out of .0014.  Unlike other Chinese chucks I have seen, no sharp edges or burrs.  I have not unpacked the 4 jaw yet.    I will likely get a 6 jaw set tru, either Gator or Bison and will at some point get a set tru 5c chuck. The four way tool post is off and will likely stay there.  I have a spare wedge holder to use, BXA would be a bit on the small side and CXA seems just a hair large, the compound sits a bit high IMO.



Rigger proved why they get the big bucks.  Every detail was gone over, the lathe never knew it was being picked up by fork lift.  No blocking, no straps, went down a hill like it was a ring in a jewelery box.   I suspect that Grizzly does not check these machines when they take delivery, or they would have done something about the frankenstein dials I got.  Metric only on cross slide, combo on the compound and inch on the carriage.     When I get it running I will report on how it runs.      Its tough rapping my head around this purchase and I vacillated a long time, weighing the pluses and minuses. There is nothing about it that is as nice as my Monarch that is 59 years old, but its new does metric threads and larger which is why I bought it.  Grizzly is thinking about what to do about cross slide dial, I supect there will be a long wait and maybe I will get new dial and pointer, or maybe I will just suck it up and put on the that .0001" reading Newall I been thinking about.   Cudos to Grizzly, the lathe was very well attached to substantial skid, and then crated with half inch thick 6 inch wide slats.  All the accessories were crated and strapped down well, no loose bits flying around.   I have read the stories of others who have bought tools and found loose bits everywhere , not in this case.    The plastic gear in threading chain looks pretty substantial, I would not consider it an issue.  Right now I am undecided on how to get power to it.  Being a dirt bagger I could just rig up cord on floor, done that before, but it would be nice to not have to step over it, so looks like overhead conduit, lots of turns and drop to lathe.  Might be several days before it gets turned on.
I just figured out the crossfeed dial is pinned, if you push pin you can rotate it to get metric on underside, I missed that buried in cosmoline, so that issue is resolved , silly me.
cheers
michael


----------



## coolidge

For $13,500 that would annoy me significantly. I have first hand experience with dried out cosmoline, it can permanently stain the ground surfaces besides being a pain to remove. Something else that doesn't like to sit for years unpowered are capacitors, in particular start/run motor caps. As for "badly rusted" that's not something I would expect to deal with on a brand new $13k machine.

Glad you got the dials sorted out, yeah they spin around from metric to inch. That's good news on the chuck though I had already planned to replace it with a PB. I have detailed specs on the cross slide, compound vs spindle centerline, CXA is the right choice. BXA is too small and CA is too large.

So this means I would have to drive up there and inspect the specific machine I would buy, duly noted. Hopefully they have some newer stock in Bellingham vs 2012. Would appreciate further updates as you make progress. As for your rust issue here's a tip from the guys who restore rusted old iron, they soak towels in Evaporust, lay them on the rusted areas and cover them in plastic, the stuff is amazing at removing rust I'd try that first. I first used Evaporust on a 1952 machine which had some significant rust on a rough casting you could not really wire brush, it came out amazing, no elbow grease required. Just rinsed it with some water and some very light scrubbing with a plastic bristle brush. Effortless. The rust was 100% GONE!


----------



## coolidge

Update: I called Grizzly, they only have one of these lathes left in Bellingham, they could not give me the date of manufacture so I'd have to drive up there and inspect the lathe personally. ETA on the next shipment 6-8 weeks which is fine I'm not in that big a hurry. I'm still waiting on a Grizzly discount code anyway. If I got a discount code today well that might push up my timeline. Grizzly did say they would not ship me a lathe from one of the other facilities, due to the weight.


----------



## coolidge

doubleeboy just checking in to see if you are making chips yet?


----------



## Doubleeboy

No chips yet, got power to it today and fired it up tonight and ran it as per instructions at different speeds.  Will do it again tomorrow and drain oils and reload and might get some cutting in.  I am still doing final leveling.   With the 9 inch 3 jaw mounted the spindle goes from 0-2500 rpms in a couple seconds and stops in 3 the way they have vfd set, good enough for me.  Machine is pretty tight, controls need some use.  Pretty quiet to about 600 rpms, then like all gear heads it gets louder.  The included 3 jaw chuck repeats within .0013 on previously turned stock.  I am really impressed with the chuck , I was expecting the worse, not the case.

michael


----------



## coolidge

Thanks for the update, so far so good then. I like that it's quiet. That's pretty good for a large chuck, maybe I need to re-think needing a PBA chuck. I took Thu and Fri off this week, I may take the long drive up to Grizzly's Bellingham store to inspect the last G0670 they have in stock.

I forget, what are you doing for 3 phase power? I was looking at a 40 amp single phase circuit into a RPC for this lathe.

Man she winds up to max rpm's quick, which means there won't be time to hit the E-Stop so one has to pay attention to what they are doing. Reminds me of the guy with the brand new Haas lathe who had 2-3 feet of stock hanging out the back side of the spindle unsupported. I don't remember what he was doing but the lathe went to max rpm's, the stock bent over and beat his brand new lathe to death.


----------



## wrmiller

Quite the Mental Titan...


----------



## Doubleeboy

I have 10 hp idler motor hooked up to a Phase Craft rotary converter box, output goes to 3 line disconnect box, fused then to lathe.   The idler motor was free from a friend, I spent $200 putting bearings in it, the panel was about same cost, with magnetic switch.


----------



## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> I may take the long drive up to Grizzly's Bellingham store to inspect the last G0670 they have in stock.



Will they pop the crate so you can look?  My G0709 was pretty well secured, lots of working knocking the crate apart.


----------



## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> Will they pop the crate so you can look?  My G0709 was pretty well secured, lots of working knocking the crate apart.



They said they would when I called, I will call again to confirm before driving all the way up there though.


----------



## tmarks11

You going to take a drop deck trailer up with you in case you like what you see?


----------



## Doubleeboy

Had a little time today and changed the oil in reservoir for headstock.  Manual states lathe come dry, so I put in 7-8 quarts of DTE light (32).  Now the manual states they ship dry and to put in DTE 68 in one place and DTE light in 2 places, so I went with the prevailing light in headstocks.  Imagine my surprise when I took out 4 gallons of clean oil this morning.  A few metal bits but nothing huge or alarming.  Put fresh DTE 32 in and it purrs and have picked up about 15 rpms since first fired up.

Have not changed oil in carriage or gear box, I figure they ought to be used just a little before changing.   I took a few cuts today, nothing heavy, turned some 1018 garbage stock and some 12L14.  Using tpg inserts I got acceptable cuts but its definitely a gear head lathe, not comparable to the finish you can get with a belt feed toolroom lathe.  Its early in the game, I can work on leveling, adjusting the tension on each foot of lathe (6) and feeds and speeds but its obvious its not going to easily give me the finishes I get with an EE, that is no suprise, I did not buy the lathe thinking it was going to beat a 10EE , Rivett or HLVH at the surface finish and accuracy contest.  It does run smooth for a gearhead lathe, quick to speed and stop, the levers are working in and getting easier to operate.   The chuck as mentioned before is easily the equal of Bison IMO.   The castings are acceptable, but if you have experience on old iron from the heyday, you will see the compromises.  Like all stuff from China and its nearby cousin, the controls are too close together on carriage, and the whole carriage is too small, but I grew up on the real deal, so everything from Asia looks like a compromise to me.  I suspect it will fill my need of a larger lathe to complement my 10EE and take the pressure off of it for mundane work.  I also look forward to take advantage of the t slot cross slide for some in line boring something that is a bit tricky on a small lathe like the EE.

As I mentioned earlier, if I thought my garage floor could have handled a 5000 lb lathe I would have pulled the trigger on a Mori or Monarch but I don't have the confidence in my floor or that I could find a good one, and get it here and installed for the price of the Green Bear.  Years down the road, I will find out if I made a good choice.

Its still early in the new owner playing with his tool dept, and I have tons of work to do around the farm this time of year.  Maybe tomorrow or next day I can spend some time cutting threads and using the CSS.

time for bed
michael


----------



## coolidge

I have to say, improved surface finish over my 12x36 was something I was looking for in this lathe given the price, my level of interest just dropped from 9 to 3.


----------



## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> I have to say, improved surface finish over my 12x36 was something I was looking for in this lathe given the price, my level of interest just dropped from 9 to 3.


Well maybe you should make a pilgrimage down to DoubleeBoy's house instead of up to Bellingham...


----------



## 18w

coolidge said:


> I have to say, improved surface finish over my 12x36 was something I was looking for in this lathe given the price, my level of interest just dropped from 9 to 3.



 Coolidge, please take this in the spirit it was given. I fear that if your main reason in purchasing this particular lathe, is quality of surface finish, you probably will be disappointed. Unless we are discussing larger diameters, interrupted cuts, heavier depths of cut and feeds with carbide tooling, you should expect the same surface finish with either machine. Of course weight and rigidity are always a good thing, but with properly sharpened hss or a sharp positive rake insert, you should expect the same finish regardless of whether it is a 12" or 16" machine. Gearhead vs. belt drive and single phase vs. 3phase have more impact on surface finish IMHO.
 Is that amount of swing necessary? If so will you be happy with the 40" center distance? Often times having a longer bed length is as important as swing dia.
 I am just playing devils advocate here. I think Tim has a excellent idea as well. Prying open a crate in a showroom is wise of course, but talking to a person who owns one and seeing it in action would be my choice. Of course if I had the money it would be a Watcheon or Mori.
 All this aside, if you need a larger lathe and use it as Michael plans to use his, this still may be a very good choice for you.

Darrell


----------



## dave2176

Am I not picky enough? I am very happy with the surface of the stuff I turn on my G4003G. Of course I would love a bigger lathe but that is more of a Tim Taylor more power thing. I've turned a lot of aluminum and it leaves a nice sheen minus chatter marks. I also turn a great deal of 1018 and of course that isn't perfect but I want a bit of texture in this stuff for grip so a quick pass with a bit of emery cloth gives the desired result. I recently did a project with 4140 and though I did use Vipers venom oil with 360 emery cloth to get the polished surface I wanted the initial cut surface was very nice.

Dave


----------



## coolidge

My problem is I see the quality turning that comes off a $200k Mori CNC lathe. Speaking of Mori there is a 17x30 for sale about 250 miles from me for $7,500. The guy says the ways are in good shape.


----------



## Doubleeboy

Cool,

I know nothing of your lathe or how it is set up.  If its a Pratt and Whitney 12x36, you have a gem weighting a ton or more, if you have the typical 12x36 chinese lathe on a sheet metal stand then that is a different ball of wax.  I don't know much about your experience on different machines so do not take this as criticism if you all ready know this.....

Surface finish can be compromised by

1. flimsy stands
2. crappy floors
3. single phase power, or power that is not consistent in frequency or voltage
4. gear heads that transmit vibration as apposed to a nice belt drive lathe
5. type of bearings and how well they are mounted.   ABEC 7 bearings that are matched are gonna be worlds better than the swill they put in $2K 12x36 lathes.   Call Monarch up and ask em how much for a new set of bearings for a 10EE or 1000EE... gonna cost more than any chinese 12x36 lathe does.  likewise a leadscrew for a 10EE is stupid expensive, but if you want to cut beautiful threads......
6.  tooling , how sharp, what radius, positive or negative rake, what speeds what feeds, are you going to put back pressure on the carriage feed, are you going to lean on lathe, you better not move, or it will show unless your machine is the rock of Gibraltar .


If surface finish was my # 1 concern on my recent purchase I would have bought an old Southbend belt drive lathe and hand scraped the bearings myself or better yet found someone with a better clue and had them do it for me.  But I still would have had a light duty lathe.  Plain bearings, belt drive are very desirable for surface finish.  Almost no one uses plain bearing because the wear, are difficult to scrape in properly to close tolerances.   I believe DSG was the last company to make a heavy duty lathe with plain bearings.

I made a compromise in what I bought, I knew that going in.  13K for a new 1640 is comical.  The Koreans would charge 30K, Japan does not make manual lathes anymore.  Monarch would rebuild your old 1640 for you and would likely run 50K plus.  You want great surface finish and heavy duty, I am not sure its going to happen.  If I just wanted to do small work and surface finish was my plum, I would look at Wade toolroom lathe, Hendey toolroom lathe, HLVH, Monarch 10EE or 1000EE, Rivett, the rare Sidney and Southbend imitations of the 10EE or the Euro precision machines which I have never seen.

If I wanted hogging capability (that is relative) I would look at PM 1640HD and then get a pristine little toolroom lathe for finish work.  I don't pretend to know all about lathes, surface finish, or machining, I do know that people do admirable work on HF 7 x 10s and dreadful work on much more esteemed equipment.  Myself I enjoy using well thought out tools, certainly the 10ee qualifies, the Griz 1640 I think will fill a void for me and give me a back up when my 60 year old lathe takes a vacation.   I would not pretend for a minute that it is anything but a price point machine that covers a lot of bases rather well and excels in the variable speed with torque dept, but in the end is a light to medium duty gear head lathe made by people who don't give a rip about building the best ever.

Your needs or wants may be way different than mine.  If you want to see it go round and round, you are welcome with advance notice.  I like Laphroaig whiskey, but am flexible.

One last thought, if you are looking for beef and well built, if you see a Mazak manual 16" run fast with cash in hand.  They are very, very nice, but rare, built like a Mori.

michael


----------



## 18w

coolidge said:


> My problem is I see the quality turning that comes off a $200k Mori CNC lathe. Speaking of Mori there is a 17x30 for sale about 250 miles from me for $7,500. The guy says the ways are in good shape.



A man has to know his limitations. If the length suits you and is in good condition, there is no need to drive to Bellingham. Michaels post sums it all up. 

Darrell


----------



## coolidge

18w said:


> Coolidge, please take this in the spirit it was given. I fear that if your main reason in purchasing this particular lathe, is quality of surface finish, you probably will be disappointed. Darrell



I guess improved surface finish was something I was expecting for stepping up to a machine that's 3x the weight with a cast iron base, wider bed, and almost 5x the cost so this has discombobulated me a bit. Other things I still like are the lower floor to lathe centerline, my G4003G is about 4 inches too tall for me, the G0670 is about 4 inches lower, perfect. Infinite variable speed vs stepped speeds. The CSS is nice but honestly the G4003G does a fine job facing I'm not really dissatisfied with it.

Given that my G4003G, DRO, Bison, Aloris, tooling is all paid for and the $16k I'd be throwing at the G0670 just for starters would make a hell of a down payment on a Haas Mini Mill 2 I think I should step back and think about this. I love the idea of owning a 16x40 lathe but if I'm honest I can think of 10x more things to do with a CNC mini mill than a manual lathe.


----------



## 18w

You have some valid reasons for upgrading. So here are a few cheap upgrades. Build your self some wood duckboards, gains you some height while working at the lathe and eases the strain on the feet and legs. Swap over to a 3ph motor and vfd, along with your gearbox, for painless variable speeds and better surface finish.. Save the rest and buy yourself a cnc mill which I gather is where your real focus is. Just one old guy's opinion of course.

Darrell


----------



## coolidge

Darrell those are very reasonable ideas, probably cost less than $1,000 maybe $1,500 if I went crazy. Just the RPC for the 1640 was going to run $1,800. Sales tax, shipping and rigging was going to be another $2,000. Yeah I'm growing colder on the 1640 idea by the minute.


----------



## JimDawson

*Let me help you with that *

*2011 Haas DT-1 CNC Mill - $1 (SE Portland)*

*http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/4970260691.html*


----------



## coolidge

Jim Dawson, professional instigator...didn't I already add you to the axis of evil on this forum?


----------



## tmarks11

JimDawson said:


> *2011 Haas DT-1 CNC Mill - $1 (SE Portland)*


Yeah, that is going to be a wee bit more than $1... and just a wee bit more than $16k for that matter... probably about $40k more than 16k...


----------



## tmarks11

There is what looks like an above-average condition 18x40 lathe on Craigslist.... either little use or a better job of "owner refurbished" than you normally see.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/tld/4941235613.html




No price, however, which is generally a bad sign.


----------



## coolidge

Super nice, some missing paint in a few places so I don't think its a refurb yet it looks good enough to have been refurbed. Its had more use than 2 weeks though else how'd all the paint get worn off. I bet that thing is going to be north of $20k though, I emailed the guy just now to find out.


----------



## coolidge

In other news...a 10% off your next order Grizzly discount code arrived in the mail today ahahaha (Coolidge wanders off to the garage discombobulated)


----------



## 18w

coolidge said:


> In other news...a 10% off your next order Grizzly discount code arrived in the mail today ahahaha (Coolidge wanders off to the garage discombobulated)



 Yeh that 10% discount means you will only save $14,400.00 by not buying it instead of $16,000.00. LOL. Sorry to have upset your plan. My intentions were good.

Darrell


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## coolidge

The coupon drops the price on that lathe to $12,145 which is damn tempting. Assuming I can get $3k for my G04003G that drops it to $9,145. I'm already upside down on the G4003G do I drop another $2,000 on it building a new stand and converting it to variable speed, vs $7,145 more I can upgrade to the 16x40. Hence I'm discombobulated.


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## 18w

coolidge said:


> The coupon drops the price on that lathe to $12,145 which is damn tempting. Assuming I can get $3k for my G04003G that drops it to $9,145. I'm already upside down on the G4003G do I drop another $2,000 on it building a new stand and converting it to variable speed, vs $7,145 more I can upgrade to the 16x40. Hence I'm discombobulated.



Old Chinese proverb "It is better to be discombobulated and $7145.00 richer than to be disappointed and $7145.00 poorer."
O.K. O.K. I will quit jerking your chain. Only you know what is right for you. Good luck with your decision.

Darrell


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## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> There is what looks like an above-average condition 18x40 lathe on Craigslist.... either little use or a better job of "owner refurbished" than you normally see.
> 
> http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/tld/4941235613.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No price, however, which is generally a bad sign.



tmarks wait for it...wait for it...the guy wants $27,000 which is more than this lathe cost brand new 14 years ago lol. My brother found a Mori last year in this condition for $12k.


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## coolidge

FINAL - my 10% off discount code in hand, bursting with excitement and time running out, my shopping cart filled...I ran the numbers again. Lathe, QCTP, tool holders, chuck, backing plate, RPC, DRO (slot machine jackpot sound effect) $19,000 and that's before tools and inserts, what a wallet melt down that would be.  I asked myself what are my lathe needs seriously? The answer is my lathe needs are basic. I can hit 10ths with my current lathe, its already tricked out with all these things. There really isn't a compelling reason to own a 16x40 other than I wanted one. Well I want a Haas Mini Mill 2 more so its final, I'm keeping my current lathe.

Not wanting to let the discount code I schemed to get go to waste I did join the PBA club today and purchased some more Aloris tool holders!


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## tmarks11

hmmm, I am guessing that at that price he is going to be overwhelmed with a rush of buyers throwing cash at him.

For those prices, you are within reaching distance of a decent Haas SL20, and anybody with that kind of cash to drop won't be doing it on a manual lathe.

Good choice on the PBA chuck vs the new lathe, IMHO.  Have you stuck a 3 phase motor on your 4003G? Some people wear it makes a big difference as it gets rid of some vibrations (I would think the gears head would be more of a factor).  A lot of work, thought.  I might end up doing that one of these days.

While you are in the buying mood, there is 25% off at Enco today, no exclusions. BACK25.  

A new Aloris is calling my name... but I think I need to new chuck more than a new tool post.  And Grizzly (surprisingly enough) seems to have the best prices on name brand chucks around.

I bought my Bison 5C from them with the 10% coupon last year.  I let the veterans discount expire last month... wished I had jumped on a new 3 jaw...


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## coolidge

Not yet, I looked around at some motors today but right now I have my hands full with the 12z mill. I ordered a EL400 3 axis DRO for it today. Buying the PBA chuck vs the lathe, was like someone giving me money to buy it. lol


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## coolidge

I wonder why Enco didn't send me a notice about this sale . Fortunately I'm about out of things to buy for either the mill or lathe other than inserts and tools. The PBA I ordered today was the 8" 3 jaw and back plate. With the Bison 6 jaw I bought a while back I'm pretty much set.

If I had it to do over again I might have gone Dorian, their BXA will accept 3/4 inch tools vs Aloris 5/8.

The link belts definitely reduced vibration. Now that I have a quality test indicator (Mitutoyo) I'll have to re-measure the vibration from the factory single phase motor. Before when I measured it, no belts just the motor running you can feel a vibration if you lay your hand on the spindle. But I measured it with my CHINA test indicator and it only measured like .0001 to .0002. I thought at the time the heck with it but a short time later my CHINA test indicator fell apart so maybe it wasn't measuring properly. There are a number of things I could do to fine tune the lathe.


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## wrmiller

Just a FYI, but Matt at PM has a bunch of oversize BXA tool holders (I received 4 so far) that hold 3/4" tooling. They are imports of course, but seem to be of decent quality for the price. I much prefer them over the standard ones that came with the tool post. I will be getting some more of course. 

And congrats on the PBA. It looked huge at first, but now my perceptions have adjusted and it looks right at home. Love that big thru-hole. 

I did make a mental note to myself to look into a softer start profile (2-3 sec?) once I get the VFD installed as getting this big guy started when in 1800 rpm range had the belt slipping a bit. I noticed my tension adjust bracket has a bit of slop in it where it bolts to the lathe allowing the motor to rock a bit. I may have to re-make that. Interesting that you like your Mit test indicator, because I recently bought a Mit .0001 DI for setting up/measuring the chucks on my new lathe and it's basically junk. Needle jumps all over the place when trying to measure TIR and it's worse/better depending on what direction you are turning the test piece. Had to pull out my trusty import to finish the job. I may take it apart to see if something in the gear train is loose or something.


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## coolidge

Bill where have you been hiding lately? That's good to know regarding the BXA tool holders. I wonder if the Dorian BXA will fit the Aloris. Maybe you purchased one of the many counterfeit Mitutoyo's on the market?


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## wrmiller

Hey Coolidge, didn't think I'd be missed. 

Don't have a clue on the Dorian/Aloris fit: Those Dorian holders are huge, but they may work. As for the Mit, yea, I thought that too. Not that I can visually tell the diff.. Can't trust anyone these days...


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Bill where have you been hiding lately? That's good to know regarding the BXA tool holders. I wonder if the Dorian BXA will fit the Aloris.


Dorian BXA fits Aloris BXA and vice versa.  Shars and phase II fits both as well.

Dorian and Aloris BXA toolposts have the same size/shape dovetails, and the dimensions of the QCTP are the same (2.75" high, 3" square on a side).


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey Coolidge, didn't think I'd be missed.



Dude, there's been hardly anything to read since you been gone.


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## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> Dorian BXA fits Aloris BXA and vice versa.  Shars and phase II fits both as well.
> 
> Dorian and Aloris BXA toolposts have the same size/shape dovetails, and the dimensions of the QCTP are the same (2.75" high, 3" square on a side).



You guys are EVIL...ah what I meant to say was cool now I can start buying Dorian tool holders and 3/4 inch tools and new larger inserts (Coolidge looks at tmarks, Bill, begins tossing what looks like voodoo ingredients into a large boiling caldron)


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## tmarks11

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey Coolidge, didn't think I'd be missed.


While you were gone, the rest of us had to work overtime to try to make Coolidge buy stuff.

Now that you are back, we can all relax, because i know you will take up the slack.

I mean, see what happened while you were gone? Coolidge decided NOT to buy a $19k lathe.  If you had been here, I am sure you could have talked him off that cliff...

Now where was that picture of the Haas SL20 that I had....


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## wrmiller

Sorry...my gaming 'puter went down so I had to get a new one and get it all set up.


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## coolidge

Thought I might pull off a miracle the other day but it was not to be. A 16x37 Lagun Republic lathe came up for sale across town, 10hp motor, 12+ Aloris tool holders and Aloris QCTP, DroPro's EL400 DRO, VFD...for...wait for it...$3,500 dang. I pounced on it as did a couple other people but the seller decided not to sell and took down the ad


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## roadie33

That is just plain dishonest. Post something for sale, then when multiple people come to buy it he decides not to.
Sounds like he figured out he was selling to cheap.
He'll probably offer to sale it again later, for more.


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## coolidge

To be fair he said the lathe had sat for months not used, then out of the blue he got a big job in for it after he posted it for sale. As for the price yes it did appear to be under priced.


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## mksj

Hey Coolidge, the Grizzly G0670 is $1000 off (pays for the RPC you will need), still in the market for a bigger lathe? If I had the space and the need, this would probably be the model I would go for.....dream on. I have a $25 off shipping that I will be happy to share to help offset some of the shipping cost. http://www.grizzly.com/products/16-X-40-Electronic-Variable-Speed-Lathe/G0670


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## tmarks11

The Grizzly annual printed catalog shows it as "$1000 off".

So is it really "$1000 off" when Grizzly, who sets their own MSRP, provides it at a "discounted rate" that lasts for an entire year?

That is sort of like the ubiquitous "going out of business sales" some furniture stores are fond of using to reel in the unsuspecting.


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## coolidge

Yes its on sale all year in 2015 though Grizzly reserves the right to discontinue the sale at any time. If I buy a 1640 the PM RML 1640V is currently the front runner. The PM has some distinct advantages, for one its single phase so no RPC required. No sales tax vs with the Grizzly I'd have to pay sales tax.


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## roadie33

Is the lathe from the Grizzly store in Washington?
If they are shipping it from another store in another state, I'd argue the sales tax issue.
I believe that only applies to buying from the store in the State you live in.


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## coolidge

roadie33 said:


> Is the lathe from the Grizzly store in Washington?
> If they are shipping it from another store in another state, I'd argue the sales tax issue.
> I believe that only applies to buying from the store in the State you live in.



You would lose that argument, the rule is if the retailer has a brick and motor store in your state which they do in Washington then you pay the sales tax even if the product ships from one of their out of state warehouses. That said in this case due to the size/weight of the lathe Grizzly's only policy is they would only ship me that lathe from their Washington warehouse due to shipping costs.


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## roadie33

I have ordered plenty of things from Walmart that shipped from their warehouse in another state and was never charged sale tax.
There is a Walmart in every state as far as I know.


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## tmarks11

Coolidge, here is another option for you.  A YAM 17x60, made in Taiwan.




$4800 in the Seattle craigslist.


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## tmarks11

Coolidge- Grizzly 10% off coupon just showed up (good 10-13 to 10-20).  What to buy...


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## coolidge

I'm done with China tmarks which knocks out a lot of Grizzly machines


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> I'm done with China tmarks which knocks out a lot of Grizzly machines


That YAM is made in Taiwan. I have heard good things about them.  Sometimes sold under the name "Cadillac". You might need a bigger shop to put it in.



> Yam 17x60 Metal Lathe. Large Travel-Dial on the carriage, steady rest, D1-6 cam lock spindle, 7.5 hp, pressure lube on the carriage and apron, high pressure lube on the headstock, large satin dials, KDK quick change tool post, rare 2 Speed tailstock transmission, coolant pump system, hard and ground ways, hard ground screws, hard and ground gears. This is a copy of a Mori Seiki made in Tawain and is very Highest Quality.



Probably a cut above the quality of the G0670.  For 1/3 the price (or even cheaper, since usually large machinery is a buyer's market).


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## Endamur

tmarks11 said:


> That YAM is made in Taiwan. I have heard good things about them.  Sometimes sold under the name "Cadillac". You might need a bigger shop to put it in.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably a cut above the quality of the G0670.  For 1/3 the price (or even cheaper, since usually large machinery is a buyer's market).



That Grizzly G0670 is built in Taiwan also.... same factory that makes the Jet Professional Elite series of lathes, ACRA, Kent, and many others.... don't confuse its quality with other lower cost "Chinese" lathes that Grizzly also sells.


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## coolidge

After talking with Matt at PM I think the Grizzly lathe is manufactured at a different factory. It has the odd triple V ways which none of these other RML lathes have. Matt said the factory where his RML lathe is made has never heard of such a lathe.


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## wrmiller

Matt doesn't shop at the factory where the SBs are made apparently.


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> After talking with Matt at PM I think the Grizzly lathe is manufactured at a different factory. It has the odd triple V ways which none of these other RML lathes have. Matt said the factory where his RML lathe is made has never heard of such a lathe.


Pretty common to see lathes that ALMOST look exactly the same built in different places to different levels of quality.  Seems like there is a standard set of patterns that was "obtained" and handed between different manufacturers who turn out similar versions.... using parts that aren't necessarily interchangeable.

With respect to the "3 Vee" thing... it really looks like the cross slide only engages two of the Vee's, and the tailpost uses the third. So why build three?

I would bet the "SB Factory" is more than one factory.  The smaller SB lathes are made in China.  I would't be surprised if there was more than on Taiwan factory involved as well.  Grizzly has a history of swapping between manufacturers (note that there are a LOT more happy people with the first generation of G4003G than the current generation).



Endamur said:


> That Grizzly G0670 is built in Taiwan also.... same factory that makes the Jet Professional Elite series of lathes, ACRA, Kent, and many others.... don't confuse its quality with other lower cost "Chinese" lathes that Grizzly also sells.


Yes, I know (it is in the title of this thread after all).  I would still lay money that the YAM lathe built a decade ago is higher quality where it matters than the G0670.

Again, built in the "same factory" doesn't always mean you get the same machine.  They build to a price point.  Jet seems to get lower price-point, IMHO (although the jury is still out if the "elite professional" tag means anything).  I think ACRA and Kent are better.

Did you ever buy the G0670?


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## wrmiller

Yup, the little 8k SB is made in China. And it's the only machine I've ever owned that required NO adjusting/modding/tuning to get it up and running within my specs. I have never adjusted anything, not even the tailstock. Can't even come close to the same statement about my 1340 that cost 3x the 8k. The only other person I know who also has a 8k had a similar experience.

Does anyone here actually own one of these G0670 or similar lathes? Or is everyone just speculating/guessing?


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## coolidge

Bill Doubleeboy purchased one, look for his updates further back in this thread.


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## Endamur

coolidge said:


> After talking with Matt at PM I think the Grizzly lathe is manufactured at a different factory. It has the odd triple V ways which none of these other RML lathes have. Matt said the factory where his RML lathe is made has never heard of such a lathe.





coolidge said:


> Bill Doubleeboy purchased one, look for his updates further back in this thread.


If anyone is interested I can post  pictures of the Kent's, Acra and Southbends (i.e. the bigger ones, I know the little 8K is a Chinese unit) being built in the same factory in Taiwan.


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## Doubleeboy

tmarks11 said:


> With respect to the "3 Vee" thing... it really looks like the cross slide only engages two of the Vee's, and the tailpost uses the third. So why build three?



I believe you answered your own question. 2 vee ways for the carriage one for the tailstock.  More surfaces, more precise guiding of carriage, less chance of movement in unwanted directions.

The Grizzly is rock solid in longitudinal turning.  At reasonable depths of cut and moderate feeds I can detect no variation in finished material.  Pretty easy to hold a tenth.  How long that level of precision lasts is anyone's guess, but right out of the crate and leveled with a bit of care this machine cuts very true.   

As I posted elsewhere, its not a Monarch, DSG or Pacemaker, but for a price point Asian machine that is not very heavy it takes a pretty substantial cut, can repeat the same cut with same results repeatedly.  I would love to have an as new 50 year old Monarch 16", not an easy find, so I compromised and got something I think will serve my light use for the rest on my years of machining.  With a set tru collet chuck I can hold the same tolerances that I can on my 10ee, its just not as user friendly, but it can take a bigger cut, has twice the bed length etc.  

I have not doubt that a similar size Yam would be a heavier, better built machine, but it also weights a ton more and most likely saw hard use before it hit secondary market.  People dont buy Yam and Cadillac to futz around making model engines,  they get used hard to make money.  Lots of really nice old iron out there, but if they are worn out it takes one heck of a lathe operator to hold half a thou.  Before I bought a coolant stripped machine that indicated heavy use I would have to turn on it and see if I could hold the tolerances that I want to hold.   I spent 2 years looking at 10ees before I found one at the price I could pay that could hold tight tolerances.

I have been told by Grizzly tech that the G0670 is built in same factory as the South Bend labeled machines, just finished different and with different options, handles, etc.  
michael


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## tmarks11

Doubleeboy said:


> I believe you answered your own question. 2 vee ways for the carriage one for the tailstock.  More surfaces, more precise guiding of carriage, less chance of movement in unwanted directions.


They could stick the tailstock on the same two Vee's that support the carriage.  They share one Vee in common, why not two?

Good to hear that you are satisfied with your purchase.  I wouldn't really consider the G0670 much of a compromise.  I do consider my G0709 a compromise; I really was looking at least to buy a G0509, but blinked at the critical moment, which I regret.



Endamur said:


> If anyone is interested I can post  pictures of the Kent's, Acra and Southbends (i.e. the bigger ones, I know the little 8K is a Chinese unit) being built in the same factory in Taiwan.



My point is that SB label shows up on machine accessories such as chucks (made in Taiwan), rotary tables (made in China?), lathes (made in China and Taiwan), mills (made in Taiwan). I am betting that the machine accessories probably aren't made at the same factory as the lathes, and a good chance that the mills aren't made at the same factory as the lathes.   That isn't necessary a bad thing, just that there isn't really a "South Bend" factory.

Please post the pictures; always interesting to see manufacturing centers.  If I might ask, do you travel to China for work, do you get involved in importing?


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## Doubleeboy

tmarks11 said:


> They could stick the tailstock on the same two Vee's that support the carriage. They share one Vee in common, why not two?



They do not share any ways between carriage and tailstock.  That would be a big no no.  How would get the tailstock up close to headstock if it ran on same ways as carriage.  2 v ways for carriage , 1 flat and 1 v way for tailstock.

michael


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## Endamur

tmarks11 said:


> They could stick the tailstock on the same two Vee's that support the carriage.  They share one Vee in common, why not two?
> 
> Good to hear that you are satisfied with your purchase.  I wouldn't really consider the G0670 much of a compromise.  I do consider my G0709 a compromise; I really was looking at least to buy a G0509, but blinked at the critical moment, which I regret.
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that SB label shows up on machine accessories such as chucks (made in Taiwan), rotary tables (made in China?), lathes (made in China and Taiwan), mills (made in Taiwan). I am betting that the machine accessories probably aren't made at the same factory as the lathes, and a good chance that the mills aren't made at the same factory as the lathes.   That isn't necessary a bad thing, just that there isn't really a "South Bend" factory.
> 
> Please post the pictures; always interesting to see manufacturing centers.  If I might ask, do you travel to China for work, do you get involved in importing?




I travel to Taiwan and China  for work quite regularly but I am not involved in importing machines...I did have a day off last trip and I took the time to drive down to look at the factory to get a better idea of the type of operation that they have and to see if it reflected positively on the quality of the machines produced there.  I have had my eye on a G0670 for some time and I will pull the trigger on one soon....

The accessories are definitely not produced in the same factory... they only build lathes there.  The SouthBend mills are not produced there either. A separate company build those for Grizzly in Taiwan.


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## tmarks11

Coolidge-

I know you have sworn off Chinese and Taiwanese lathes...

...but...

Grizzly has their South Bend version of the variable speed 16x40 G0670 on sale for about the same price as the Grizzly version ($7.4k off).  That is a nice looking piece of machinery; unlike some Grizzly machinery, it looks better in person then in the catalog. In fact, just about all of the high end SB lathes are on sale $6k-7k off.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/16-x-40-Lathe-220V/SB1037


I am wondering if they are discontinuing most of that product line?  That is a much steeper discount than I have ever seen before at Grizzly.

View attachment sb1037-d592018dabe433ddc3c68de0a76a9245.jpg





View attachment sb1037-d592018dabe433ddc3c68de0a76a9245.jpg


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## coolidge

36% off is a huge discount for Grizzly. My guess is they way over priced these and they have been gathering dust in their warehouse. Did you notice the $2,000 freight charge they are smoking freaking crack. Grizzly also cheaped out on the stand it should be a one piece cast iron stand.

No way I'd buy one of these I'm done with China and Taiwan machines. For this kind of money I'd buy a monster Mori Seiki MS850, MS1050, or MS1250. I know where there's a nice MS1250 for $5k, its stupid that I have not already purchased it.


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## planeflyer21

coolidge said:


> 36% off is a huge discount for Grizzly. My guess is they way over priced these and they have been gathering dust in their warehouse. Did you notice the $2,000 freight charge they are smoking freaking crack. Grizzly also cheaped out on the stand it should be a one piece cast iron stand.
> 
> No way I'd buy one of these I'm done with China and Taiwan machines. For this kind of money I'd buy a monster Mori Seiki MS850, MS1050, or MS1250. I know where there's a nice MS1250 for $5k, its stupid that I have not already purchased it.



There is an outfit in the Phoenix area that lists used Japanese and European machines.  In good condition they are still a bit more than the Chinese/Tiawanese stuff.  Would be nice to acquire a 16x40 though...


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## dave2176

coolidge said:


> I know where there's a nice MS1250 for $5k, its stupid that I have not already purchased it.


Stop being silly, get 'er bought.


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Did you notice the $2,000 freight charge they are smoking freaking crack.


That is pretty funny.  Reminds me of the bad old bay days when people would sell stuff for $5 that could be shipped in a flat rate box, and charge $100 S&H.

The G0670 (which is the same machine essentially but is 500# heavier because of the one piece base) has a shipping charge of only $500.

Other of the larger SB lathes (that are on sale for $6-7k off) all have the normal shipping charge.

Regardless, I suspect that we will soon be seeing a smaller SB lathe product line.  With so many machines, if the demand is not high enough, it must be a nightmare to warehouse them.  Maybe they will neck down to a dozen machines that are advertised on Grizzly and warehoused, and the rest on the SB website to make it look huge.  Out of the 41! SB lathes on the Grizzly website, 27 of them are on sale at a significant discount.



coolidge said:


> For this kind of money I'd buy a monster Mori Seiki MS850, MS1050, or MS1250. I know where there's a nice MS1250 for $5k, its stupid that I have not already purchased it.



Pictures or it didn't happen....


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