# Which mini-mill should I get?



## Pcmaker (Jun 17, 2018)

I'm very new to machining. My Grizzly 7x12 lathe hasn't even arrived yet, even though I've already received all the tooling I ordered from Amazon. 

Which mini-mill should I compliment my lathe with? Nothing too big as I have a small garage I use as a shop and I par my car in there, too. I'll be generally making not-so-big items.


----------



## T Bredehoft (Jun 17, 2018)

I can recommend Precision Machinery's PM25, Its  accurate, easy to operate, not expensive.


----------



## P. Waller (Jun 17, 2018)

Lacking any budgetary constraints or work requirements in your query this is an interesting question.
Less or more then $25.000


----------



## Bi11Hudson (Jun 17, 2018)

For toy-weight machining, Grizzly's G-0727 is a good choice. I am partial to a knee based Z axis. Just old fashioned, I guess. I have an older Atlas horizontal machine and am very partial to it. The Griz 0727 has some bad points but mostly in the horizontal mode. In vertical mode, it has a lot going for it. But no serious power. Food for thought.......


----------



## coherent (Jun 17, 2018)

I had a little machine shop mini mill and Converted it to CNC. I was very pleased with it, but found out fairly quickly that when it comes to mills, bigger is better. If you are positive you'll never need anything bigger...  then the grizzly, LMS and PM machines would all fit the bill. Moving to the next size up like a G0704 or PM equivalent are somthing worth thinking about considering the fairly small difference in price vs much more capability.  The space/footprint is not a huge difference either and suitable for those with limited space.


----------



## Mitch Alsup (Jun 17, 2018)

Bi11Hudson said:


> For toy-weight machining, Grizzly's G-0727 is a good choice. I am partial to a knee based Z axis.



I have its bigger brother the G0730.
I am also partial to knee milling, and the added weight and nose height are an added benefit.


----------



## Pcmaker (Jun 17, 2018)

As of now, I'm leaning towards the Precision Machinery's PM25. It's around $1600 for the base model.


----------



## David S (Jun 17, 2018)

Looks like a pretty nice machine with a very large work envelope compared with your mini lathe.

In the interests of being able to interchange tooling such as collets etc.  Do any mini mills come with MT3 spindle tapers rather than R8?

David


----------



## T Bredehoft (Jun 17, 2018)

I'm afraid you'll find that the Morse Taper mounts are not set up to resist lateral movement, but might be subject to loosening when used in a milling procedure.


----------



## David S (Jun 17, 2018)

I guess I am used to folks using Sherline mills and lathes for small micro machining and their mill uses an MT taper in the spindle which is compatible with their lathe head stock..  Perhaps it has to do with higher cutting loads that R8 is preferred? 

David


----------



## Charles Spencer (Jun 17, 2018)

From the Sieg X-2 to the Bridgeport on up an R-8 taper is the most widely used.  That means this tooling is widespread and easiest to find.  Especially used.


----------



## P. Waller (Jun 17, 2018)

Charles Spencer said:


> From the Sieg X-2 to the Bridgeport on up an R-8 taper is the most widely used.  That means this tooling is widespread and easiest to find.  Especially used.




The original post was Which mini mill should I get? not what is the least expensive machine available.
A Haas TM1 would be perfect for small parts and one off part work, 40 taper spindle, 4000 RPM's, single phase, conversational control, small 30" X 12" X 15" movements, full enclosure, coolant. A 10,000 rpm spindle would be much better but you are unlikely to get that for less then $20.000
https://www.haascnc.com/machines/vertical-mills/toolroom-mills/models/tm-1.html


----------



## Charles Spencer (Jun 17, 2018)

Sorry if my post offended you.


----------



## jrkorman (Jun 17, 2018)

Charles Spencer said:


> Sorry if my post offended you.



I believe that your comment was quite valid! Worth noting at least!


----------



## markba633csi (Jun 18, 2018)

These threads often go in different directions, I'm quite used to it


----------



## higgite (Jun 18, 2018)

P. Waller said:


> The original post was Which mini mill should I get? not what is the least expensive machine available.
> A Haas TM1 would be perfect for small parts and one off part work, 40 taper spindle, 4000 RPM's, single phase, conversational control, small 30" X 12" X 15" movements, full enclosure, coolant. A 10,000 rpm spindle would be much better but you are unlikely to get that for less then $20.000
> https://www.haascnc.com/machines/vertical-mills/toolroom-mills/models/tm-1.html



He also said "nothing too big". I'll hazard a guess that an 8 foot long TM-1 is "too big". Just a hunch, mind you. 

Tom


----------



## stuartw (Jun 18, 2018)

David S said:


> Looks like a pretty nice machine with a very large work envelope compared with your mini lathe.
> 
> In the interests of being able to interchange tooling such as collets etc.  Do any mini mills come with MT3 spindle tapers rather than R8?
> 
> David



As far as I know, no, I've never seen a hobby mill with anything other than r8, except on the smaller side (ER) Tormach sells a r8 to 3/4 straight shank adapter which lets you use ER collets though which is great and can be used for your diy atc 

https://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=30188&portrelay=1


----------



## Pcmaker (Jun 18, 2018)

I think I'm going to take the plunge and just use my credit card, guys. The PM-25V has a lot of options. Can you guys help me which options I need to include with the base model? I'm not getting the stand, I'll set it up on my work table to save money. so, as of now, I'm at $1499. Or should I go all aftermarket stuff from Amazon?

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-25mv/


----------



## coherent (Jun 18, 2018)

PM's are good machines and should serve you well. I'm sure you'l have fun with it! You need a vice and at least a basic set of end mills, collets, clamp down kit/set.  A drill chuck if it doesn't come with one.  You can always add dro's later if you want to save money. Play with it and read the forum  and you'll soon have a list of any other items you want based on your specific use and needs.  If it's your first mill, sometimes what you think you need you may rarely use, and what you think you don't need you will. Just have fun!
You may want to get a digital caliper and you need at least one dial indicator to square and true your machine and vice. You may find find that some items you'll manage fine to start with cheaper import stuff. Other you may want better quality to start with. You can always upgrade later if needed once you practice a  bit and know more about what works well for you and what doesn't.


----------



## Pcmaker (Jun 18, 2018)

Ok so far I added the 11 piece collet set and the 52 piece clamping set. Which milling vice should I pick? They have 4 of them.


----------



## TonyRV2 (Jun 18, 2018)

I just took delivery of my PM-25MV a few weeks ago.  Its a very well built machine for its class as most would agree.  I chose this over the similar Grizzly machine for two reasons.  First it has a belt drive instead of plastic gears, and secondly because it came with a 3 year as oppose to 1 year warranty.  There were a few other reasons but those alone I thought was worth the few hundred more that it cost. I did order mine with the 3 axis DRO as well.  This is an expensive option and certainly a person could find a much less expensive after market alternative if you were willing to install it yourself.  Even though years ago I installed DRO's for a living, I didn't want to mess with it...but that's just me. 
I also went to Amazon to get started on tooling.  Don't skimp on the vice.  When milling, the more solid everything is, the better when it comes to avoiding chatter.  I purchased a 4" vice that came with a swivel mount..its blue and cost around 100 bucks...I'm sure you've seen it.  Anyways, I'm happy with it.  I did remove the swivel base and will only put it back on if I need it.  Again, the more solid, the less moving parts, the better.
You'll need a clamp kit and R8 collets which I see you've gotten.  Of course you'll also need endmills.  Your also going to need a test indicator and magnetic base for tramming the head (mine was good to go when checked) and also for squaring the vice.  You'll need to order some oil for the ways, and also some cutting oil.  The manual lists the types of lubricants, but for cutting oil its your preference.  Oh...you'll need a drill chuck if you're going to do any drilling with the machine.  Again, don't get a cheap one, but you don't need to spend a fortune on one either.  I got on of the middle of the road keyless chucks that PM sells.  There are also incidental tools like machinist squares, edge finders, calipers, micrometers, parallels (absolutely necessary for clamping work), chip brush, oil cans....heck we could go on and on here, but I think I've listed the essentials.  You'll find, as all of us have, that eventually you'll have spent more on tooling that on the machine itself, but that's part of the fun of it.  When it comes to tools, buy what you need for the job at hand...you don't have to go all crazy all at once, LOL


----------



## TonyRV2 (Jun 18, 2018)

Oh...I'll add that one of the first things I did was remove the chip shield.  Its easy to do, and when removed the micro switch that senses the position of the guard stays active so you can still run the machine.  The other thing I did was to tighten up the gibs, especially on the z axis.  I noticed (with the DRO) that when tightening the z axis clamps, the axis would move several thousandths. Tightening the gibs eliminated much of the problem, and now the movement is less than a thousandth.  This is not a problem since close tolerance positioning of the z axis is done with the collet and not the z axis per se.


----------



## Ken from ontario (Jun 18, 2018)

TonyRV2 said:


> I did order mine with the 3 axis DRO as well. This is an expensive option and certainly a person could find a much less expensive after market alternative if you were willing to install it yourself. Even though years ago I installed DRO's for a living, I didn't want to mess with it...but that's just me.


That was a wise move in my opinion, a milling machine definitely benefits from having a DRO, it just makes a huge difference in accuracy especially for older ,tired eyes. , they can be a pain to install  so depending on how much extra it would cost to order one already  installed, I would seriously consider that option.


----------



## TonyRV2 (Jun 18, 2018)

The 3 axis DRO from PM for the PM25 is a $550 add on.  I cringed at the price seeing that it added 33% to the price of the mill, but hey, my motto is pay once, cry once... and I didn't have to worry about messing with it, which is worth at least a dollar right there.


----------



## Pcmaker (Jun 23, 2018)

Ok, guys. I bought the following items. I don't think it comes with a chuck. What else should I get? I'm buying the rest of the stuff from Amazon


----------



## Ken from ontario (Jun 23, 2018)

I think you'll be happier with an R8-ER32 chuck and a set of ER-32 collets. it's going to cost twice the price of a good chuck but you'll be able you hold  drill bits and end mills.
There have been many discussions on ER collets on this site if you want to know more.
I recommend only what I have used not what I've heard, Technik collets are good quality and for the collet chuck I recommend Glacern R8-er32 :
https://www.glacern.com/er_collet_chucks
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Techniks-E...381344&hash=item45e59f6ee1:g:6LMAAOSwg9JZ09Eb
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Techniks-E...793119&hash=item53d3e92f1a:g:xxQAAOSwHIlZ09OA
OR a bit cheaper alternative is TPACtools , they sell on ebay and have good  reviews.


----------



## Pcmaker (Jun 23, 2018)

I already bought an 11 piece R-8 collet set. Is this not good enough to start with?

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/11-pc-precision-r-8-collet-set/

not sure what R-8 is. If it's an R-8 collet set, then I need an R-8 chuck?


----------



## Ken from ontario (Jun 23, 2018)

https://www.amazon.com/TECHNIKS-PIE...ords=techniks+collet&psc=1&smid=APU472AUAZ6T3
I got my set from Hemly tool supply.
You are only going to spend once and get the best tools within your budget ,so I say buy them wherever they give you the best service and price.IE, Glacern offers great price and fantastic service. they may sell on Amazon also.


----------



## royesses (Jun 23, 2018)

The R8 collet set is fine for starting out. Better to put money on a thin parallel set for now since you will soon need them. How about end mills? Some 2 flute and 4 flute HSS end mills for a starter set. An edge/center finder is also a good inexpensive tool. A DRO really is a great addition but is expensive.  A dial test indicator for tramming.

Congrats on the PM-25MV. That is a very nice mill, so much nicer than my little HF mini mill. 
Don't forget to save some money for materials if you don't already have them.

Roy


----------



## stuartw (Jun 23, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> I already bought an 11 piece R-8 collet set. Is this not good enough to start with?
> not sure what R-8 is. If it's an R-8 collet set, then I need an R-8 chuck?



If the mill is advertised as r8 (looks like it is) you just need a collet set which you've already ordered. A collet is the metal sleeve or collar that holds your tool in the spindle. for example, assuming you have a 1/2 shank end mill and you want to use it in your mill, you would select your 1/2" r8 collet, insert the collet and end mill into the machine, tighten the drawbar, which pulls the collet into the machine which causes the collet to squeeze the shank of your bit. the outside diameter of an R8 collet does not change, but the inside diameter does which is why they come in a set.

You may be wondering, why not just use a drill chuck? the answer is rigidity and accuracy. a drill chuck holding that same 1/2 end mill will usually only have 3 contact points, and extend further away from your headstock, reducing the amount of lateral force you can apply to your end mill along with increased chances of the tool slipping, and it will have more T.I.R.

R8 is not the only option, but it is a standard on these small table top mills / mills with limited HP. ER collets and a ER to R8 adapter is worth researching, I used R8 for a long time before looking for alternatives and as Roy pointed out, it is fine when you're starting out.



Ken from ontario said:


> I think you'll be happier with an R8-ER32 chuck and a set of ER-32 collets. /QUOTE]
> 
> I wish I had done this sooner. As an added bonus, once you use ER with an adapter to r8 you can preset all of the tool heights which can be a huge time saver...


----------



## Ken from ontario (Jun 24, 2018)

PC maker, you asked about a chuck ,that's why the ER32 chuck was mentioned, the question changed from needing to order a chuck to collets.
we're all trying to help you as we were helped many times by others ,, may I respectfully suggest you familiarize yourself with all the names of  basic parts in  a milling machine and a metal lathe, what is a R8 spindle taper, or R8 arbor/chuck ,ER  chucks,etc.here's a couple of links:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-meant-by-a-spindle-in-a-milling-machine
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/mit-milling-machine.64956/
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/mit-lathe.64955/
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/machinist-terms.67218/




Pcmaker said:


> Ok, guys. I bought the following items.* I don't think it comes with a chuck*. What else should I get? I'm buying the rest of the stuff from Amazon
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...



A keyed chuck with an R8 arbor:


An R8 arbor:


R8/ER32 collet holder:
Don't buy this ,I only wanted to show the type of chuck/collet holder :
https://www.amazon.com/TOOGOO-R8-ER...9813761&sr=8-1&keywords=r8+er32+collet+holder


----------



## stupoty (Jun 24, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> I'm afraid you'll find that the Morse Taper mounts are not set up to resist lateral movement, but might be subject to loosening when used in a milling procedure.



All the china machines that come with R8 for US market seem to also be made with Morse for euro market.

As you say R8 may be a better milling taper as I have experienced the occasional tight tool in the spindle but is very convenient as I can share tools with the lathe and drill press.

Stu


----------



## Pcmaker (Jun 24, 2018)

stuartw said:


> If the mill is advertised as r8 (looks like it is) you just need a collet set which you've already ordered. A collet is the metal sleeve or collar that holds your tool in the spindle. for example, assuming you have a 1/2 shank end mill and you want to use it in your mill, you would select your 1/2" r8 collet, insert the collet and end mill into the machine, tighten the drawbar, which pulls the collet into the machine which causes the collet to squeeze the shank of your bit. the outside diameter of an R8 collet does not change, but the inside diameter does which is why they come in a set.
> 
> You may be wondering, why not just use a drill chuck? the answer is rigidity and accuracy. a drill chuck holding that same 1/2 end mill will usually only have 3 contact points, and extend further away from your headstock, reducing the amount of lateral force you can apply to your end mill along with increased chances of the tool slipping, and it will have more T.I.R.
> 
> R8 is not the only option, but it is a standard on these small table top mills / mills with limited HP. ER collets and a ER to R8 adapter is worth researching, I used R8 for a long time before looking for alternatives and as Roy pointed out, it is fine when you're starting out.



I see. So, I don't need a chuck if I have a complete collet set, which is superior to chucks. 

Which endmill set should I get from Amazon, guys?


----------



## TonyRV2 (Jun 24, 2018)

I also have a recently purchased PM25.  I bought this set of endmills off of Amazon for starters.  So far I'm happy with them but I think I'll be complementing them with some carbide endmills eventually.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YPHSJK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## stuartw (Jun 24, 2018)

Well for your end mills at least you should be using something designed for that use and R8 is a great place to start since it's the taper your mill is designed to use. If however you are doing to do drilling with your mill, you will find a drill chuck is still useful as they can accept very small diameters and infinity adjustable though the max size of shank.

R8 to ER as its been mentioned a few times is an excellent upgrade later on, however, I wouldn't bother on day 1.

You would be better off focusing on the equipment you will likely need eventually, like a parallel set (thin), a dial indicator, caliper, 1,2,3 blocks, maybe a small brush to clear chips, an oiler etc. before evaluating whether or not an ER setup is the right choice for you. 

I'm not saying you should rush out and buy what I've listed but you will need additional tooling to successfully mill something and accomplish tasks like tramming your mill.

For end mills, HSS and if you feel like splurging get the tin coated ones, they will last longer but I would not go and buy carbide, they require higher feeds and speeds and until you have some practice I wouldn't go there.



Pcmaker said:


> I see. So, I don't need a chuck if I have a complete collet set, which is superior to chucks.
> 
> Which endmill set should I get from Amazon, guys?


----------



## Pcmaker (Jun 24, 2018)

Eventually, I want to mill out the top slide of my Glock 19 to be able to put a removable rmr red dot sight in. Gunsmiths charge an arm and a leg to do that.

I'm still not exactly sure what an R8 or ER is, but I want to get a drill chuck so I can still use my drill bits and so I can get rid of my drill press to free up much needed space.


----------



## markba633csi (Jun 24, 2018)

R8 is a type of collet invented by Bridgeport. ER is also a type of collet, invented by the Swiss I think
Sure you want to get rid of your drill press?  More machines is usually better 
Mark


----------



## JimDawson (Jun 24, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> Which endmill set should I get from Amazon, guys?






TonyRV2 said:


> I also have a recently purchased PM25.  I bought this set of endmills off of Amazon for starters.  So far I'm happy with them but I think I'll be complementing them with some carbide endmills eventually.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YPHSJK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1



The end mill set above is available from Harbor Freight, a bit cheaper with the 20 or 25% off coupon.  I keep a few of these sets around for utility uses.  Good starter set, when you break one it's no big loss, they're cheap. 

You still need a drill chuck, I personally prefer a keyless chuck, but a keyed chuck will work just fine.


----------



## yendor (Jun 25, 2018)

I would think twice about getting rid of your drill press.

While a Mill/Drill can be used as a drill press.
I have found there are many times I don't want to bother the setup in my mill due to an unfinshed project and need to drill something.
The drill presss is also much easier and faster to setup for drill operation than my mill/drill and we have the identical machines.
(althought I don't know what your drill proess is) My drill press is a full size flor model. An old Delta 6x6. 6-Speeds, 6"-Quill travel.


----------

