# Lathe Noob With Some Questions On First Cuts



## Pinresto (Jul 29, 2015)

Hello All,
I have some questions to try and figure out where I stand on this lathe. I'm new to lathes. This is my first and over the last few days I've gotten it set up and takes lots of cuts. I'm having some issues I'd like some advise on. I've taken the lathe (SB 9c) apart, cleaned, painted, rewicked, oiled and leveled as well as i possibly could. I read through "how to run a lathe" and many other publications with good info. Not to mention the endless hours of youtube.
I have a scrap piece of solid bar stock 2.25" long x 2.25" diameter in a three jaw chuck. The type of steel is not known. It's magnetic, soft enough for a file to cut it, has no signs of rust and no matter what I do I get a mate finish. I don't know if that will give any clues to the type of metal or not. Anyways. I'm having trouble with depth of cut, feed rate and belt slipping. I'm using an adjustable link type belt from harbor freight. The tool bit is a HSS bit I ground. After a few try's it came out pretty good. I've also tried a carbide tipped bit and a cheap insert tool. All with the same results. I have the gears set up to give me a .0031 feed rate and the belt is on the far right pulleys, 235rpm. All is well if I keep my depth of cut below .008" but anything more then that and the lathe bogs down or the belt jumps off.
I have nothing to compare this performance to so I'm asking, is this typical? I feel like I should be able to take more of a cut. I'm going to try a different material but this piece of scrap is not dulling my tool and seems to be soft enough to machine. It's been in a lathe before based on the marks I see on it. I know it's hard to say with so many variables but, with a slow feed rate and an easily machined steel how deep should I be able to cut on this SB9c?
I apologize this was so long but I wanted to give as much info as possible.
Thanks in advance.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 29, 2015)

I would turn that at 6-700 RPMs with coolant, 300 or so without, .050" DOC at .008-.010 IPR feedrate for roughing, the faster you spin it the better the finish will be with carbide. Finish at the same or faster RPMs , .004-.008 DOC depending on the nose radius of the tool and .004-.006 IPR feedrate.
If it's plain 1018 steel you will never get a shiny finish, as for the drive belt slipping and/or coming off of the wheels that is purely a mechanical problem. Scrap the link belt if at all possible.
Good Luck


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## Pinresto (Jul 29, 2015)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> I would turn that at 6-700 RPMs with coolant, 300 or so without, .050" DOC at .008-.010 IPR feedrate for roughing, the faster you spin it the better the finish will be with carbide. Finish at the same or faster RPMs , .004-.008 DOC depending on the nose radius of the tool and .004-.006 IPR feedrate.
> If it's plain 1018 steel you will never get a shiny finish, as for the drive belt slipping and/or coming off of the wheels that is purely a mechanical problem. Scrap the link belt if at all possible.
> Good Luck



When you talk about .050" DOC what machine are you using? Are you using a 9" SB or similar? I just want to make sure we're comparing apples to apples. If I should be able to take a .050" DOC with this lathe I have a problem. I think I fixed my belt slipping problem. I readjusted my pulleys, shimmed one side a bit and turned my belt around. I didn't realize this belt needed to turn in a certain direction. It still won't take anything more than about .008" DOC. I think I may need a new motor. It runs quiet and smooth but doesn't seem to have the power needed. It's 1/2hp and 1725rpm but it's 50+ years old.


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## John Hasler (Jul 29, 2015)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> Scrap the link belt if at all possible.


Why?


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## Doubleeboy (Jul 29, 2015)

I will repeat what was told to me when I started out...... "No mystery metal, cut known good quality , easy to turn stock"    1 inch diameter 12L14 would be fine.   Nice sharp HSS cutter with positive rake.  I picked up a beater HF 7 x 10 lathe for a bargain used.  I can take 30 thousands off the diameter with a sharp HSS bit with positive rake with out it even breathing hard.  You should be able to do much better than that, I would start with known parameters, good sharp tool, get help there if needed and good stock, then you can tackle your belt situation if needed.

cheers
michael


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## Pinresto (Jul 29, 2015)

Doubleeboy said:


> I will repeat what was told to me when I started out...... "No mystery metal, cut known good quality , easy to turn stock"    1 inch diameter 12L14 would be fine.   Nice sharp HSS cutter with positive rake.  I picked up a beater HF 7 x 10 lathe for a bargain used.  I can take 30 thousands off the diameter with a sharp HSS bit with positive rake with out it even breathing hard.  You should be able to do much better than that, I would start with known parameters, good sharp tool, get help there if needed and good stock, then you can tackle your belt situation if needed.
> 
> cheers
> michael





That sounds like excelent advise. I'm about to place an order for an assortment of metals to practice with. I need to decide on a couple starter projects first. I think I'm going to make a set of machinist jacks and some other small useful tools. For now I have what I have. Im new here and trying to find out where all the tool and metal stores are. It's not like back home where I could just use yelp or Google. Here you have to get out, look and ask around. I do have a piece of 1" hot rolled bar stock. I chucked it up and had much better results. I worked my way up to a .050" DOC with no issues at all. I guess it was the type of metal I had after all. Wish I know what kind it was. I have a few sizeable pieces of it. 
Thanks


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## mikey (Jul 29, 2015)

Might be the material but it could also be your tool. Would you post a pic of your turning tool? 

0.008" DOC on a 9" lathe is ridiculous. I can take 0.025" DOC in 1144 Stressproof steel on my Sherline lathe so something is definitely off.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 29, 2015)

John Hasler said:


> Why?


Less surface area in the V-groove = less traction, can't tighten them as much as a solid belt.
I am also assuming that a SB9 is a 9" swing lathe, 1/2 HP seems a bit anemic for a lathe that size, once owned a Clausing 13" lathe that had a 5HP motor.

.050 DOC at 2 1/2" may be a bit optimistic I suppose (-:


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## brino (Jul 29, 2015)

I try to cut (unhardened) steel with HSS tools at about 80 surface feet per minute.
For 2.25" diameter that comes out to around 136 rpm.
Another advantage of lower speed is more torque (with the same motor).

I would expect to take 20 thou. depth of cut easily at 8 thou per rev. feed rate on my SouthBend 9".
I'd drop to a few thou depth and 2-3 IPR feed for finish cut.
(all with a sharp tool of course)

-brino


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## Pinresto (Jul 29, 2015)

Thanks for all the info everyone. Here's pics of my tool bit and metal I had trouble turning.


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## Pinresto (Jul 29, 2015)

Don't make fun of my grinding, it's my first attempt. Feel free to tell me if I'm doing something wrong.


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## brino (Jul 29, 2015)

Are you using any coolant/lubricant?
I keep a pump bottle of WD-40 handy for steel.

-brino


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## Silverbullet (Jul 29, 2015)

Did you hone the tip of your bit ? Do you have an india stone , 1/2" x 1/2" inch will work great to slightly round the tip it polishes and hones it to make it sharper then just the grinder wheel . If you can try grinding a chip breaker on the top of your bit it will make the cutting edge like a sharpened knife . Even try angling the cutter a little differently. Is your lathe set up with v pulleys or flat . If flat you might be better off with a leather drive belt. Plus your motor does sound underpowered . Move up to a 1 hp and I think you'll see a world of difference. Or use back gear if you have it probably will still stall the motor. You can ck the motors draw on the power you use , but I think the motors to weak .


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## turnitupper (Jul 29, 2015)

Try putting more backrake on your tool and stone tool until it shaves a fingernail.
John.


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## mikey (Jul 29, 2015)

Thanks of  posting the pics, Tony. First, you have basically ground a knife tool here. That is, the side cutting edge angle is zero so there is no built in lead angle and the tool will cut with much higher cutting forces. You have ground in some side relief and side rake angle but no back rake. I cannot see from the pics if you have any end relief angle on this tool; if not, then the tool will not penetrate the work and that is a big problem. You have little to no nose radius on this tool so it won't finish well for you. Given the above, I would anticipate that this tool is a major part of your problem.

I have the following suggestions. Regrind the tool but put a side cutting edge angle on it. This looks like a 3/8" square bit so if you grind the side cutting edge about 3/4" long while also taking off about half the width of the tool (up front at the tip of the tool) at the same time you'll have a shape that will work. Remember that you will be grinding in the side relief angle at the same time as you are shaping the side edge so set your tool rest to about 12 degrees or so and then grind the side to shape. Once the side is ground, grind the tip so that it forms an angle of about 80-85 degrees relative to the side edge. Don't change the table angle as you grind the end; this will give you an end relief angle that matches the side relief angle and it will work fine. Now you need to grind in that side rake angle; this is set with your tool rest angle and I would suggest 12-15 degrees for this. Your back rake is determined by the angle with which you present the tool to the grinding surface and I suggest you use a 12-15 degree angle for this. To be clear, this 12-15 degree angle angles the tool so that the tail of the tool is angled away from you. It looks like you're using a belt sander to grind with, which is good. You set the table angle first, then angle the tool to 12-15 degrees and just push straight into the belt. As you do this, the part of the tool touching the table will contact the belt first but as you grind material away the grind will approach the top of the tool. That top surface is actually the side cutting edge. You want to grind until the top and side angles meet but no further. If you do it right the tip of the tool will be at the same height as the shank of the tool. Add a 1/64" nose radius (edit: the nose radius must follow the angle of the nose of the tool from top to bottom. That is, the radius has the same shape from the tip to the heel of the nose of the tool) and blend it into the side and end surfaces and then hone the tool. I suggest you hone the side, then end, then top to a homogeneous smooth surface.

Present the tool to the work with the shank perpendicular to the work and that tool will take a 0.050" deep cut with ease. Use cutting fluid for steel, not WD-40 (sorry, Brino). You can alter the lead angle of the tool to improve the finish further - angle the tip more toward the tailstock. If it chatters, reduce the angle but this tool won't chatter on that size work piece.

Grind your tool and let us know how it works. You're on the right path, Tony, so don't give up!


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## Pinresto (Jul 30, 2015)

brino said:


> Are you using any coolant/lubricant?
> I keep a pump bottle of WD-40 handy for steel.
> 
> -brino


Yes, I've been trying a few different things.


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## Pinresto (Jul 30, 2015)

Silverbullet said:


> Did you hone the tip of your bit ? Do you have an india stone , 1/2" x 1/2" inch will work great to slightly round the tip it polishes and hones it to make it sharper then just the grinder wheel . If you can try grinding a chip breaker on the top of your bit it will make the cutting edge like a sharpened knife . Even try angling the cutter a little differently. Is your lathe set up with v pulleys or flat . If flat you might be better off with a leather drive belt. Plus your motor does sound underpowered . Move up to a 1 hp and I think you'll see a world of difference. Or use back gear if you have it probably will still stall the motor. You can ck the motors draw on the power you use , but I think the motors to weak .



Flat belt. 
 I'll try these things today. Thanks


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## Pinresto (Jul 30, 2015)

mikey said:


> Thanks of  posting the pics, Tony. First, you have basically ground a knife tool here. That is, the side cutting edge angle is zero so there is no built in lead angle and the tool will cut with much higher cutting forces. You have ground in some side relief and side rake angle but no back rake. I cannot see from the pics if you have any end relief angle on this tool; if not, then the tool will not penetrate the work and that is a big problem. You have little to no nose radius on this tool so it won't finish well for you. Given the above, I would anticipate that this tool is a major part of your problem.
> 
> I have the following suggestions. Regrind the tool but put a side cutting edge angle on it. This looks like a 3/8" square bit so if you grind the side cutting edge about 3/4" long while also taking off about half the width of the tool (up front at the tip of the tool) at the same time you'll have a shape that will work. Remember that you will be grinding in the side relief angle at the same time as you are shaping the side edge so set your tool rest to about 12 degrees or so and then grind the side to shape. Once the side is ground, grind the tip so that it forms an angle of about 80-85 degrees relative to the side edge. Don't change the table angle as you grind the end; this will give you an end relief angle that matches the side relief angle and it will work fine. Now you need to grind in that side rake angle; this is set with your tool rest angle and I would suggest 12-15 degrees for this. Your back rake is determined by the angle with which you present the tool to the grinding surface and I suggest you use a 12-15 degree angle for this. To be clear, this 12-15 degree angle angles the tool so that the tail of the tool is angled away from you. It looks like you're using a belt sander to grind with, which is good. You set the table angle first, then angle the tool to 12-15 degrees and just push straight into the belt. As you do this, the part of the tool touching the table will contact the belt first but as you grind material away the grind will approach the top of the tool. That top surface is actually the side cutting edge. You want to grind until the top and side angles meet but no further. If you do it right the tip of the tool will be at the same height as the shank of the tool. Add a 1/64" nose radius (edit: the nose radius must follow the angle of the nose of the tool from top to bottom. That is, the radius has the same shape from the tip to the heel of the nose of the tool) and blend it into the side and end surfaces and then hone the tool. I suggest you hone the side, then end, then top to a homogeneous smooth surface.
> 
> ...



Thank you sir,
 I will try these things today and report back.


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## mikey (Jul 30, 2015)

My name is Mike. Go grind your tool, Tony - you got this! 

We await your results.


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## brino (Jul 30, 2015)

mikey said:


> Use cutting fluid for steel, not WD-40 (sorry, Brino).



No problems here. Use what works for you! 
I have been looking for a coolant/lubricant that meets ALL  of my needs for years; and I'm still looking.
I do NOT want to hijack this thread with the details.
For me WD40 is close by most of the time. 
It works, it is cheap and I've never had an issue with it staining or gumming up.

-brino


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## mikey (Jul 30, 2015)

I meant no insult, Brino. I don't think discussing fluids here will hijack the thread - Tony can use the info, too.

In terms of cutting efficiency and tool life, WD-40 works fine for Aluminum but not for steel under relatively high cutting loads. My reasoning over the years is that since WD-40 has a boiling point the the mid-300's it loses most of its lubricating properties with heavier cuts in steel where temps at the point of cut can be quite high.

I think we all try different stuff and settle on what works for most things. I like Tapmatic #1 Gold for most stuff, heavy sulfur-based oil for thread cutting most stuff, A-9 for aluminum when I need the best finish or WD-40 for routine turning and milling of aluminum. No one thing works for everything and everyone will have their favorites.


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## brino (Jul 30, 2015)

mikey said:


> I meant no insult, Brino. I don't think discussing fluids here will hijack the thread



Mike,

Absolutely no offense taken!

I had not considered boiling point, there's one more parameter......sigh.....



mikey said:


> I think we all try different stuff and settle on what works for most things.



Agreed, our requirements vary greatly. At the top of my requirements list is for what ever the fluid is NOT TO FREEZE!
(I'm guessing that's not on your list ).
Since I cannot guarantee that my garage shop will be above freezing in the winter months.

Tests I've done on some of the soluble oil coolants that you mix with water showed that at the recommended dilutions they do freeze.

Sure the true cutting oils will not freeze, but I'm considering fluids for my power hacksaw and mill too.
My big old mill has coolant slots in the table and a reservoir in the base, but I've (so far) never used them. 
Currently I just hand apply small quantities with a spray bottle or brush.

-brino


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## Bill C. (Jul 30, 2015)

This is the only place I've read of using WD40 as a cutting fluid. I had used heavy cutting oil with the turret lathes I was assigned.  I have used water based coolant with grinders, saws and milling machines.  I don't know if the water based coolant would freeze or not.  Cutting oil probably will stiffen up when it is cold. Interesting question


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## Pinresto (Jul 30, 2015)

Hijack away. I need to buy a cutting fluids. Right now I'm using the same ISO 68 I'm using for my lathe. Not ideal im sure but It's probably the best of what I have on hand. I'll need to order some and it will take two weeks to get here.  Today I found a shop locally that sold some machining stuff. Some starrett micrometer, calipers, lathe tool blanks, reamers, etc. it's nice to find one so close to me. They probably have cutting fluids but my command of the local language in limited at best. I'll stop back by when my translator (wife) is with me to ask some questions.


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## Pinresto (Jul 30, 2015)

Mike, I'm going to post some more pics of my tool. (Lol) All I've done to it is hone it and put a slight radius on it. I'm home now and ready to go at it again. I'm going to read through your post again and make your suggested adjustments.


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## Pinresto (Jul 30, 2015)




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## mikey (Jul 30, 2015)

As suspected, you have no end relief angle on that tool and it will not be able to penetrate the work except with brute force. May I suggest you see the links in post 70 in this thread?

http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/turning-tool-and-facing-tool-questions.36687/

Have a look at the articles with particular attention to how to grind the various shapes and angles and then have a go at grinding the tool again. I hope it helps.


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 30, 2015)

Aside from what looks like a worn nose radius, it looks like it should cut well.  If the radius is just honed, go for it, if it's worn shiny,regrind the end until its' gone.

_Edit_: maybe a little more vertical relief on the end, try 7 to 12º under cut.


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## janvanruth (Jul 30, 2015)

there are some good videos on youtube on the subject of grinding cutting tools


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## Pinresto (Jul 30, 2015)

I made the adjustments you suggested and its def an improvement. I'm going to start again from the beginning after I read through the three part article on machinist blog. It's really good info. I had actually started reading it before you suggested it. I've got to run out for the evening but I'll post pics and an update tomorrow. 
Thanks, your help is much appreciated.


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## mikey (Jul 30, 2015)

Helping is what this forum is about, Tony, and the Beginner's Forum in particular. Read the articles for understanding but grind the tool as I suggested above. Your lathe is far more capable than it seems right now ...


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## Pinresto (Jul 31, 2015)

mikey said:


> Helping is what this forum is about, Tony, and the Beginner's Forum in particular. Read the articles for understanding but grind the tool as I suggested above. Your lathe is far more capable than it seems right now ...


What a great article. I had to read it twice to absorb it all. I may even read through it again after grinding and cutting some more. As I gain experience I like to re read things. The info tends to become a more clear. 
  I've been grinding on my bench grinder up until today. It's difficult to get the correct angles, even with the tool rest. I guess it's because I'm grinding on a wheel and it's not a true angle. I know most people use them for grinding but I switched to my 12" disk sander. It was much easier to control. I ground what I think is a decent tool and it improved the performance. On the mystery metal I can now take a .020" doc and the hot rolled basically gives no resistance to anything I've thrown at it. It cuts like butter. I'm going to a metal supply store this weekend to pick up some stuff to play with. Do you have any recommendations? I'd like to make a set of machinist jacks for my first project. What would be a good metal to use? I'll post some pics of my new tool shortly. 
Thanks again


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## Pinresto (Jul 31, 2015)

I have a serpentine belt sitting around so I think I'm going to try it on the lathe to see if it helps any. I'm testing several gules on the excess belt to see which one holds the best.


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## Pinresto (Jul 31, 2015)




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## mikey (Jul 31, 2015)

Pinresto said:


> What a great article. I had to read it twice to absorb it all. I may even read through it again after grinding and cutting some more. As I gain experience I like to re read things. The info tends to become a more clear.
> I've been grinding on my bench grinder up until today. It's difficult to get the correct angles, even with the tool rest. I guess it's because I'm grinding on a wheel and it's not a true angle. I know most people use them for grinding but I switched to my 12" disk sander. It was much easier to control. I ground what I think is a decent tool and it improved the performance. On the mystery metal I can now take a .020" doc and the hot rolled basically gives no resistance to anything I've thrown at it. It cuts like butter. I'm going to a metal supply store this weekend to pick up some stuff to play with. Do you have any recommendations? I'd like to make a set of machinist jacks for my first project. What would be a good metal to use? I'll post some pics of my new tool shortly.
> Thanks again



Are you sure you've only ground a few tools, Tony? That looks like a fine tool to me! It sounds like it cuts better so can we assume we're past this depth of cut problem?

Now you need to learn to use that tool. Make small changes to the lead angle until you find your sweet spot for the particular operation you're doing. Roughing, facing and finishing will each have a sweet spot for every tool and you need to find yours. Once you do I think that tool will serve you well. Good job, Tony! You learn fast!

Before you go on to projects maybe it might be a good idea to learn to use your lathe first. My advice to new guys is to start with materials that are easy to cut so you learn how the lathe works and, to my mind at least, 12L14 or 6061 Aluminum are the best materials to learn on. You not only have to learn your lathe, you need to build the skills to use it well. Slow down, take your time and build your skills.

By the way, do you have a mill? How often do you think a machinist's jack is actually used in a hobby shop? Might want to think about making tools you will actually use every day, no?


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## mikey (Jul 31, 2015)

I forgot to mention - it looks like the side relief and side rake angles don't quite meet. There is an area of brightness at the cutting edge that indicates a dull edge. You can either grind it to correct this or hone the tool but that edge should be razor sharp. 

Your chips look good - wide and thin, just like this tool should produce. The cutting angles are more acute and the increased back rake shifts the cutting load toward the tip so it should finish pretty well.  A tool with standard geometry will cut with thicker and tightly curled chips in steel but this one is not standard so the chips will look different.


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## chips&more (Jul 31, 2015)

In your pic its looks like the business end/point is worn down or was stoned that way? In any event, that would definitely give you cutting problems. Tool bit geometry is debatable, but I think we can all agree that a tool bit needs front angle and end angle relief. Back angle, well, I have not put a back angle on a tool bit in over 40 years now. Why, because it makes it MUCH easier to re-sharpen the bit and my tool height stays the same. Do I notice a difference in cutting action, how would I know, have not needed to change, everything is good the way it is. Your using ISO68 I guess is better than nothing. Maybe try some Rigid  cutting oil. That stuff should be readily found at a hardware store. And maybe try some 12L14 steel for your projects…Good Luck, Dave.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 31, 2015)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Pinresto (Aug 1, 2015)

mikey said:


> Are you sure you've only ground a few tools, Tony? That looks like a fine tool to me! It sounds like it cuts better so can we assume we're past this depth of cut problem?
> 
> Now you need to learn to use that tool. Make small changes to the lead angle until you find your sweet spot for the particular operation you're doing. Roughing, facing and finishing will each have a sweet spot for every tool and you need to find yours. Once you do I think that tool will serve you well. Good job, Tony! You learn fast!
> 
> ...



I have an x2 mini mill I use fairly often. I figured machinist jacks would be fairly easy to make and a good way to learn. I'm not quite ready to make them. I need to actually cut a thread first,lol. 
 Do you think here in panama they use the same numbering system for their metals? Do they call 12l14 , 12l14? Might be a dumb question as I'm sure they do. Is it a world wide standard? 
 That shines edge on my tool came from honing it. It felt fairly sharp but not perfect so I've still got some improvemets to make. 
 Any suggestions on useful beginners tools?


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## Pinresto (Aug 1, 2015)

chips&more said:


> In your pic its looks like the business end/point is worn down or was stoned that way? In any event, that would definitely give you cutting problems. Tool bit geometry is debatable, but I think we can all agree that a tool bit needs front angle and end angle relief. Back angle, well, I have not put a back angle on a tool bit in over 40 years now. Why, because it makes it MUCH easier to re-sharpen the bit and my tool height stays the same. Do I notice a difference in cutting action, how would I know, have not needed to change, everything is good the way it is. Your using ISO68 I guess is better than nothing. Maybe try some Rigid  cutting oil. That stuff should be readily found at a hardware store. And maybe try some 12L14 steel for your projects…Good Luck, Dave.



Is the ridgid cutting oil the same stuff they use for threading pipe?


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## JR49 (Aug 1, 2015)

Pinresto said:


> Is the ridgid cutting oil the same stuff they use for threading pipe?



That's correct, you can find it in the plumbing dept. of most home improvement, or hardware stores. 
JR49


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## chips&more (Aug 1, 2015)

Pinresto said:


> Is the ridgid cutting oil the same stuff they use for threading pipe?


Yes


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## mikey (Aug 1, 2015)

Pinresto said:


> I have an x2 mini mill I use fairly often. I figured machinist jacks would be fairly easy to make and a good way to learn. I'm not quite ready to make them. I need to actually cut a thread first,lol.
> Do you think here in panama they use the same numbering system for their metals? Do they call 12l14 , 12l14? Might be a dumb question as I'm sure they do. Is it a world wide standard?
> That shines edge on my tool came from honing it. It felt fairly sharp but not perfect so I've still got some improvemets to make.
> Any suggestions on useful beginners tools?




I don't really know if it is a worldwide standard but it probably is. 12L14 contains lead, hence the L in the designation. It cuts really easily and is a good material to learn on. Here in the US its cheap, too. Best to call the supplier to see if they have it - they will know. Another one is 1215, which is the unleaded version of 12L14. 

If the edge has a shine, whether from grinding or honing, the edge is not sharp. You need to fix that. 

The first project I usually recommend is an accurate tool height gauge. Look at the many designs and pick the one you fancy. I favor the ones that are precisely cut to center height, not the ones that use a screw. This will teach you to measure and machine accurately and will come into use daily as you hone your tool grinding skills. 

Back when I started all of this, I decided that I needed to learn all the basic lathe operations - turning, facing, boring, drilling, screw cutting, etc. As I learned them I found I needed devices or tools to make things easier or more accurate and those went on the list. If a project required a skill I didn't have then I focused on gaining that skill and then made the project. As time went along my list grew faster than my skills. I'm still working on that list but I'm gaining on it. 

My point is that the project is not the goal; obtaining the skills is the goal and building skill takes time. Take the time.

You're doing great, Tony. I would spend some time learning about grinding good tools. That, too, is a skill and it will serve you the rest of your life. It isn't so much the grinding part that matters; its understanding what the geometry does so you can make the tool do what you want it to do. Many hobby guys don't want to bother with this and go with carbide, which is fine, but on a smaller lathe like yours a good HSS tool that is ground to meet your specific needs will extend the performance envelope of the lathe far more than you can believe right now. Carbide will never do this.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Aug 1, 2015)

mikey said:


> Carbide will never do this.



Now this is misinformation, while I realize that many use machines that were designed with HSS tooling in mind and manufacturers gave little thought to future tooling options. 
Making a claim that modern carbide tooling will never work is simply wrong. A more honest conversation  would reveal the fact that modern tooling that works well is entirely too expensive for hobbyists, there are no tool manufacturers that want to make tools for the "wait until you can get it cheaper on Ebay crowd"

One of the reasons that it is difficult if not impossible too find good US made machines is that the American manufactures saw the writing on the wall 40 years ago when all of the small shops began to disappear. No one in a modern machine shop uses a manual Bridgeport knee mill or a manual small lathe. There is nothing left for hobbyists to buy used. Other Companies have filled that niche.


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## mikey (Aug 1, 2015)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> Now this is misinformation, while I realize that many use machines that were designed with HSS tooling in mind and manufacturers gave little thought to future tooling options.
> Making a claim that modern carbide tooling will never work is simply wrong. A more honest conversation  would reveal the fact that modern tooling that works well is entirely too expensive for hobbyists, there are no tool manufacturers that want to make tools for the "wait until you can get it cheaper on Ebay crowd"
> 
> One of the reasons that it is difficult if not impossible too find good US made machines is that the American manufactures saw the writing on the wall 40 years ago when all of the small shops began to disappear. No one in a modern machine shop uses a manual Bridgeport knee mill or a manual small lathe. There is nothing left for hobbyists to buy used. Other Companies have filled that niche.



I never "claimed" that carbide will "never" work. I said that a purpose ground HSS tool can be made to improve the performance of the smaller lathe that he now owns and that it can be customized to better suit his needs. I know of no carbide tool that allows customization to the degree that HSS allows, which was my point. I am not a pro like you but even I know that modern carbide tooling used on modern industrial machines works well. However, that is not the case here. We have a beginner hobby guy with a lathe that couldn't even take a decent cut. We were able to sort out that it was his tool and fortunately we were able to help him grind it in a way that allowed him to make acceptable cuts. At least he can now learn to use his lathe.

You seem to be taking issue with something I never said, taken in a context that I never implied. All I really did was help this guy. I see nothing wrong with any of that so, for my part, this ends here.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Aug 1, 2015)

Well said, no disrespect intended just looking at the other side of the coin, I try to help anyone that I can with whatever skills and experience that I have gained over the years of trial and error, mostly error however. I only do something wrong once or twice. After the second cockup I stop and give serious thought  to how I bungled the first two parts.
 Running a machine tool is a learning experience every day, after 1 year or 30 years.


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## mikey (Aug 2, 2015)

Thank you! You know, when I read your response in post #2 of this thread, I thought "Wow, this guy probably just whipped that response out off the top of his head! That is a working pro talking.". You may not realize it but I actually do know that you try to help us; I've seen it many times before. As for my defensive response, I ask your forgiveness.

You have my respect, WreckWreck.

Mike


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## uncle harry (Aug 2, 2015)

John Hasler said:


> Why?



Yes why ?       I have a SB9A 16 speed (1949) bench unit. I've never slipped the belts using linked V-belting.  I'm using the red Fenner Drives brand.  The links will theoretically conform more readily to smaller Dia. pulleys as well.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Aug 2, 2015)

uncle harry said:


> .  The links will theoretically conform more readily to smaller Dia. pulleys as well.


This is an advantage that I hadn't immediately thought of, excellent observation!


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## Pinresto (Aug 11, 2015)

Just an update on my progress for any other beginner reading this. I've beed grinding lots of tools the last week and it's getting much better. Even so I was still limited on my DOC. I decided to try my serpentine belt to see if it made a difference and it did. A huge difference. Like night and day. I can easily take a .050" cut now. Maybe the green HF link belts are not as good as the others(no surprise there). I bought two lots of used HSS lathe tooling on ebay so I've got lots to play with. Paid about $40 shipped for 50-55 used name brand tool blanks. It doesn't get any cheaper than that. 
Thanks again for everyone's help. I've made a couple bushings I needed so far and they came out perfect.


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## mikey (Aug 11, 2015)

Good for you, Tony. Glad you got this sorted, finally. 

With regard to grinding tools, I would recommend you decide on which type of grinder you are going to use and make yourself a good tool rest. I much prefer a good belt grinder but admit I am in the minority in my choice. Be sure your tool rest provides support around the right side of the wheel or belt to provide support for the bit as you grind in the back rake on a tool. Keep in mind that the most critical angles on a tool bit are the ones that rely on the tool rest angle - the relief and side rake angles - your table must allow you to precisely set and control those angles. 

As you have found, a good tool can make a big difference in how the lathe itself performs and you are off to a good start. Now you need to individualize your tools to your specific lathe. Every lathe has a limit but yours is far more capable than you can imagine right now, and your tools will unlock it.


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## Bill C. (Aug 11, 2015)

mikey said:


> I forgot to mention - it looks like the side relief and side rake angles don't quite meet. There is an area of brightness at the cutting edge that indicates a dull edge. You can either grind it to correct this or hone the tool but that edge should be razor sharp.
> 
> Your chips look good - wide and thin, just like this tool should produce. The cutting angles are more acute and the increased back rake shifts the cutting load toward the tip so it should finish pretty well.  A tool with standard geometry will cut with thicker and tightly curled chips in steel but this one is not standard so the chips will look different.



It doesn't look like the angles meet from the photos. Could be the small flat looking areas are angled in the photo.  His chips look good to me.


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## Bill C. (Aug 11, 2015)

mikey said:


> Good for you, Tony. Glad you got this sorted, finally.
> 
> With regard to grinding tools, I would recommend you decide on which type of grinder you are going to use and make yourself a good tool rest. I much prefer a good belt grinder but admit I am in the minority in my choice. Be sure your tool rest provides support around the right side of the wheel or belt to provide support for the bit as you grind in the back rake on a tool. Keep in mind that the most critical angles on a tool bit are the ones that rely on the tool rest angle - the relief and side rake angles - your table must allow you to precisely set and control those angles.
> 
> As you have found, a good tool can make a big difference in how the lathe itself performs and you are off to a good start. Now you need to individualize your tools to your specific lathe. Every lathe has a limit but yours is far more capable than you can imagine right now, and your tools will unlock it.



Here I thought I was the only one who liked a belt sander to rough my bits.


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## mikey (Aug 11, 2015)

Nah, Bill, there are at least two of us.


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