# Apprentice exercises.



## Carlos SA

Reading through this forum I see that there are a few professional machinists that have mentioned training as apprentices as part of their education. 

I was wondering if those machinists that happen to read this could please share some apprentice exercises. I have not had the opportunity to be trained as an apprentice but I would like to develop my skills. I was thinking I would post my results of the practice exercises in this thread and hopefully others will join in too. 

Regards, 
Carlos.


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## chuckorlando

I'm in school now and our teacher is the man. So much so that in his 3 months he has taken the new students to the same level and advanced some past the students from the last teacher with a year in school.

How much do you really want to learn? Just a few projects? Or do you want some real deal book and math work? Running the machines is the easy part. Learning the book work is what draws a line between the 3 types of machine shop workers. 1 being button pushers or guys who can do anything if you set it up for them and hold their hands. 2) being the guys who are good enough to make things on their own but are just sloppy, good enough type guys. 3) being the smallest group, they will be true machinist. It aint good enough to be in the tolerance zone but rather hit the number stated.

If you want to be in the 3 group you got alot of book work to learn. 2 of the most important will be right triangles and gd&t. You need to now all the trig functions for triangles and you need to know at least the most basic aspects of gd&t

Let us know what your looking for and I'll try my best to help you find it. Be it things to make or actual books to learn


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## Bill Gruby

chuckorlando said:


> I'm in school now and our teacher is the man. So much so that in his 3 months he has taken the new students to the same level and advanced some past the students from the last teacher with a year in school.
> 
> How much do you really want to learn? Just a few projects? Or do you want some real deal book and math work? Running the machines is the easy part. Learning the book work is what draws a line between the 3 types of machine shop workers. 1 being button pushers or guys who can do anything if you set it up for them and hold their hands. 2) being the guys who are good enough to make things on their own but are just sloppy, good enough type guys. 3) being the smallest group, they will be true machinist. It aint good enough to be in the tolerance zone but rather hit the number stated.
> 
> If you want to be in the 3 group you got alot of book work to learn. 2 of the most important will be right triangles and gd&t. You need to now all the trig functions for triangles and you need to know at least the most basic aspects of gd&t
> 
> Let us know what your looking for and I'll try my best to help you find it. Be it things to make or actual books to learn




  This is all nice but not quite right, at least not here in Ct. A true Machinist, after his apprenticeship is almost complete has one last task before taking the Journeymans test. He is given the raw stock and the print. He is then told how much time he has to complete the task. He can ask for NO help. Start to finish is up to him. There is no given way to do it. After 4 years and 8000 hours you should be ready.

 My mentor believed in "If you did it right, you know it so he never told you. Heaven help you if you did it wrong." I have taught apprentices myself. I like the ones with no machine school training. They have no bad habits yet.

 "Billy G"


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## Carlos SA

*chuckorlando*, I think I got the book and math part right, I'm studying Engineering. My goal is for my work to be of excellent quality. I'm collecting as many books as I can and putting hours into the workshop almost everyday.


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## Bill C.

Carlos SA said:


> Reading through this forum I see that there are a few professional machinists that have mentioned training as apprentices as part of their education.
> 
> I was wondering if those machinists that happen to read this could please share some apprentice exercises. I have not had the opportunity to be trained as an apprentice but I would like to develop my skills. I was thinking I would post my results of the practice exercises in this thread and hopefully others will join in too.
> 
> Regards,
> Carlos.



When I was in high school the counselors bounce me around from a business career to a vocational one.  I liked wood shop but allergies didn't like it.  I was then assigned to machine shop. We made a metal letter opener, ball pein hammer and a couple of machinist jacks.  There were a few other tools too. I could never turn a good thread while in school.  I was taught to setup and operate lathes by changing gear trains, shapers and drill presses.  Milling machines were for the second year students so I didn't get to set them up.  After high school I went to work as a beginner in that I setup some machines and on the others I just ran production. 
After being turned down for the draft Mom thought maybe collage would be better career choice.  I entered a two year drafting design program offered by Purdue at the Indiana University Campus.  After about five years I finally graduated.  Still the power of turning metal kept calling me. Seems the longest job I had was about three years.   I was in GE's last apprenticeship class of Drafting and Tool & Die class until it closed nine months before completion. Still I had no papers of Journeyman Machinist but tons of experience. Got a six month job assigned to Texas Instrument in Dallas, Tx.  There I was challenged to keep a one to two thousands tolerance machining soft aluminum parts for their production equipment. The last job I had was at McDonnell Douglas, St.Louis, MO., as Aircraft toolmaker. There I went from a Grade One Toolmaker to a Grade Two.  Finally completing my Apprenticeship. That is probably the longest journey but it was an interesting one.  On and off I think it took me 20 years.  Seems I would get laid off during every modern Recession.  

Well that is my story.


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## chuckorlando

I aint talking a true machinist on paper. There are some true machinist IMO that have never left their own garage. I'm talking a guy who can hit the mark, look at a drawing and see how to get to the end result, a problem solver and a thinker. Every one cant be a machinist but anyone can run a machine. The teacher gives us blue prints and send us on our way. Like yours, he has nothing to say unless we are wrong. He even lets us screw our own pooch and learn from it. But with out triangles your not getting to far with him and without gd&t you cant understand the prints. Our current project you need to mill two 20* angles with a reamed hole between them. You need trig for the sine bar and trig to find and check the angles. He dont expect us to know all about gd&t but you cant work off your datum if you dont even know what a datum is.

My point is you can become one of 3 kinds. If you wish to be what I would consider a machinist you need to know alot more then how to run a machine. If you cant find 21* on a lathe using just a indicator your not a machinist. If you cant set 7 holes in a 6.325 Dia circle equally spaced with pen and paper or at least just a calculator your not a machinist. And you almost certainly are not a machinist at the end of most machinist schools. And many who have 30yr on a mill, well they still are not a machinist.

Are you looking for blue prints of things to make? I can copy what we are doing as we do it. What machines do you have access to?





Bill Gruby said:


> This is all nice but not quite right, at least not here in Ct. A true Machinist, after his apprenticeship is almost complete has one last task before taking the Journeymans test. He is given the raw stock and the print. He is then told how much time he has to complete the task. He can ask for NO help. Start to finish is up to him. There is no given way to do it. After 4 years and 8000 hours you should be ready.
> 
> My mentor believed in "If you did it right, you know it so he never told you. Heaven help you if you did it wrong." I have taught apprentices myself. I like the ones with no machine school training. They have no bad habits yet.
> 
> "Billy G"


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## MikeWi

Well I'm certainly no Machinist.  What the heck is gd&t?


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## Bill Gruby

I didn't disagree with you Chuck. I just added to your statement. I will add no more as my 40 years as a paper machinist is worthless. I have a cutter grinder to build. Have fun.

 "Billy G"


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## John Hasler

MikeWi said:


> Well I'm certainly no Machinist.  What the heck is gd&t?


  Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GD&T


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## 12bolts

Just bringing this thread back on track,


Carlos SA said:


> I was wondering if those machinists that happen to read this could please share some apprentice exercises. I have not had the opportunity to be trained as an apprentice but I would like to develop my skills.



Carlos, If you want to start where I did my first project was learning to file a round bar square. And when we had done that they let us put the square bar in a lathe and turn it round again. We then made a small tapered punch from the rod we had turned. progressing from there we made a small hammer, some parallel clamps, and the big project for our 1st year, a surface gauge.
It will depend on whether you want to go back to the start or not. A good machinist needs to know how to fit things by hand as well as how, and when, to "machine"
If you want to start machining then make some simple tools and accessories to use for the machines you have.
Machinist' jack
Centre punch
Parallel clamp
Carriage stop
Mill table stop.

Cheers Phil

- - - Updated - - -

Carlos,
What machine/s do you have, or access to? And do you have a particular interest area? That will give us some idea of what may be a good project to start with.

Cheers Phil


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## Bill Gruby

Sorry, lost my cool for a second. My apologies Carlos. Thank You Phil.

 "Billy G"


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## iron man

My apprentice exercise was rather old school my first day my boss gave me a 4 inch block of steel and one hacksaw blade to cut through it. I guess it was so I would respect what machines do for you.. Ray


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## DAN_IN_MN

iron man said:


> My apprentice exercise was rather old school my first day my boss gave me a 4 inch block of steel and one hacksaw blade to cut through it. I guess it was so I would respect what machines do for you.. Ray



AND??

Were you able to make it through the whole 4 inches?


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## chuckorlando

I actually was agreeing with you sir. Theres so much more to a machinist then a piece of paper or running a machine. I'm sure in them 40yr you have seen examples of all I mentioned. Sorry if it came out in any other way





Bill Gruby said:


> I didn't disagree with you Chuck. I just added to your statement. I will add no more as my 40 years as a paper machinist is worthless. I have a cutter grinder to build. Have fun.
> 
> "Billy G"


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## markknx

Well I do not think you will find anyone in the first group here. I say that because as far as I can tell we are all home machinists, so we haveto do are own set up work. (yes I know many of you are also profecional machinist) Me As much as I would like to make itto the third group it probably won't happen do to my late start, lake of formal trainingand so on. But that does not mean I do not shoot hard for THE number. I once made a fixture for my black bull ban saw that alowed me to cut a 4" long cut on two parts to within 5-7 thous. Now that was not to brag that was just to add to the poit that you really have to want to do something to be good at it. I have a 4 year apprenticship behind me but not in machining, In Ironworking.


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## SE18

I enjoy machine dabbling so I'll likely always be a despicable dabbler, standing in awe of you professional machinists


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## Carlos SA

Thanks for the responses guys but if you'd like to discuss what makes a machinist a machinist please make another thread. This thread is for skill building exercises. 




12bolts said:


> Just bringing this thread back on track,
> 
> 
> Carlos, If you want to start where I did my first project was learning to file a round bar square. And when we had done that they let us put the square bar in a lathe and turn it round again. We then made a small tapered punch from the rod we had turned. progressing from there we made a small hammer, some parallel clamps, and the big project for our 1st year, a surface gauge.
> It will depend on whether you want to go back to the start or not. A good machinist needs to know how to fit things by hand as well as how, and when, to "machine"
> If you want to start machining then make some simple tools and accessories to use for the machines you have.
> Machinist' jack
> Centre punch
> Parallel clamp
> Carriage stop
> Mill table stop.
> 
> Cheers Phil
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Carlos,
> What machine/s do you have, or access to? And do you have a particular interest area? That will give us some idea of what may be a good project to start with.
> 
> Cheers Phil



Hi Phil, 

I have my own lathe, a Myford super 7. I have a universal vertical slide for it, a Myford dividing attachment, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, faceplates, steadies, centers, boring bars, drills, threading tools and a couple other things. My goal is to be able to make my own machines of various purpose, so accuracy and quality is important. I also have to be as resourceful as possible, I don't have a lot of money while I am studying. I might have access to metal casting facilities soon, which I'll use to make surface plates and angle plates so I can start marking out properly. I'll have to learn how to scrape when I make the plates. 

I'm very interested in extending the capabilities of my lathe, I really enjoy making tooling. I like the idea of being able to make anything. 

Thank you for the exercises, I'll definitely try them out but I might only have time next year, Christmas is busy!

Regards, 
Carlos.


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## ScrapMetal

You can always go "old school" and get a copy of South Bend's "Machine Shop Projects" - http://www.amazon.com/Machine-Shop-Projects-South-Lathe/dp/1559182482  It starts out with making very simple tools like punches and plumb-bobs and progresses up to more complex items like a small IC engine.

-Ron


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## iron man

DAN_IN_MN said:


> AND??
> 
> Were you able to make it through the whole 4 inches?



My Boss was so damn mean you did not dare fail.. Ray


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## ome

Hi guys,
if it is not to late to start i would love the correct order of projects. 
Thanks,
Jon


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## 12bolts

Jon,
Depending on your life experiances and background you may want to start with basic filing. Its not really as simple as it looks, try it and see. Or you may wish to skip that and start turning. I started with hand filing as a 15yo apprentice. 35 years later I could still use some improvement there........
But making hot chips fly is more fun and rewarding.

Cheers Phil


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## ome

12bolts said:


> Jon,
> Depending on your life experiances and background you may want to start with basic filing. Its not really as simple as it looks, try it and see. Or you may wish to skip that and start turning. I started with hand filing as a 15yo apprentice. 35 years later I could still use some improvement there........
> But making hot chips fly is more fun and rewarding.
> 
> Cheers Phil


Thanks, i have to forgo the repetitive motions on my wrists and thumbs,  
but was hoping to learn thru a project involving my machines and measurement mastery. 
Thanks,
Jon


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## ScrapMetal

Ome,

I was serious about the old SB "Machine Shop Projects" book.  Here's a .pdf that describes the projects in the book - http://www.wewilliams.net/docs/1928 - South Bend Machine Shop .pdf

It's a place to start anyway.

-Ron


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## Carlos SA

Thanks Ron, I'm definitely going to be picking up a copy of that sometime!


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## NoShopSkills

I remember my high school metals shop class.  A project was to cut out a wrench from 1/2" bar stock with a hacksaw and then file it to size.  My father had a friend that balked at the project and offered to rough out the shape with a torch.  I pressed on and did it like we were assigned. Next we made a brass tack hammer with a turned aluminum handle.  To this day I hardly if ever draw a hacksaw blade backwards with and pressure.  I am pretty good at filing to a profile when needed and I still love putting a high shine on just about anything metal.  Somewhere along the way I lost or tossed the wrench, but 30+ years latter I still have that hammer.  Wouldn't sell it for $100,000.


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## ome

Thanks for sharing those pics of an awesome and beautiful hammer. 
Thank you for those projects , 
Jon
how thick is the handle and thickness of brass head. 
Excellent looking knurl on the handle, had you practiced alot before putting the actual knurl on handlE?
Jon


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## ray hampton

chuckorlando said:


> Are you looking for blue prints of things to make? I can copy what we are doing as we do it. What machines do you have access to?




can you gather some simple blueprints together for me to work from ?


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## HomeMetalMan

Carlos SA said:


> Thanks for the responses guys but if you'd like to discuss what makes a machinist a machinist please make another thread. This thread is for skill building exercises.



As one who had no hands on training as a metalworking machinist and then worked as an electrical engineer for the remainder of my time working to earn a living, I have had to learn my skills by a little reading and a lot of practice.

As you are asking for building exercises then you may find the projects on my website worth looking at as most not only include the drawings but suggestions for the methods for making them. In addition there are "how to" items that describe processes.

The place to start is the index for the metalworking section here http://www.homews.co.uk/page463.html

It does though run to six pages so there is quit a bit of searching needed to find items of use. Perhaps I should create a subsection for simpler projects. However, here is a short list for starters.

Centre finder for use on the lathe. http://www.homews.co.uk/page115.html

Miniature depth gauge.  http://www.homews.co.uk/page116.html

Backstop for the lathe. http://www.homews.co.uk/page92.html

Toolmakers/Parallel Clamps. http://www.homews.co.uk/page260.html 

And for a "How to" item.

Lathe Setup / Turning Parallel, etc.  http://www.homews.co.uk/page309.html 

As I see Carlos that you have a lathe with vertical slide for milling you may like to look at the pages related specifically to that way of working. They are listed under "Lathe only projects" on this section of the index. Some of these are relatively simple.

http://www.homews.co.uk/page465.html 

Some of my books may also be of help and are also listed on the website. 

Hope this is of help to you.

Harold Hall


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## Bill C.

12bolts said:


> Jon,
> Depending on your life experiances and background you may want to start with basic filing. Its not really as simple as it looks, try it and see. Or you may wish to skip that and start turning. I started with hand filing as a 15yo apprentice. 35 years later I could still use some improvement there........
> But making hot chips fly is more fun and rewarding.
> 
> Cheers Phil



Filing is a good place to start.  The first project at my last job was forming form blocks out of aluminum. All of the tool makers were required to file radiuses and angles on these blocks.  The blocks were used to bend aircraft aluminum parts using a hydropress.  We used radius gages, machinist protractors and file cards to do the job.


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## george wilson

I disagree with "anyone can run a machine" MY WIFE CAN'T!!! She has many talents,but she has no mental facilities for keeping out of trouble with machines. I've learned that by trying to teach her to use mine. As soon as I leave,CHAOS!!!


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## ray hampton

Bill C. said:


> Filing is a good place to start.  The first project at my last job was forming form blocks out of aluminum. All of the tool makers were required to file radiuses and angles on these blocks.  The blocks were used to bend aircraft aluminum parts using a hydropress.  We used radius gages, machinist protractors and file cards to do the job.



Can you explain the term hydropress more cleanly , all that I understand is hydro are referring to water


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## Carlos SA

NoShopSkills, Thank you for posting your beautiful hammer. How is the head held onto the handle? 

Harold Hall, Thank you for your post. I've seen some of your books and will pick up copies at some point. I have been looking through some old issues of Model Engineers workshop, my next project is a set of dial indicator accessories from the 1990s issues. I've found the Model Engineers workshop useful for project ideas.

 I will have to make use of your website in the new year. Thank you for providing a valuable resource, it's nice to know what my lathe is capable of.


I hope everyone has a lovely Christmas and new years, and I look forward to making some chips in a week or two. 

All the best, 
Carlos.


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## hman

ray hampton said:


> Can you explain the term hydropress more cleanly , all that I understand is hydro are referring to water



I don't know for sure ... but I'm pretty confident that "hydropress" is a contraction of "hydraulic press."


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## HomeMetalMan

I think Carlos you are probably referring to the indicator accessories in issue 14 of MEW. In which case this was an item of mine, though not stated as I was editor at the time, and was updated in issues 151 and 152. If you do not have these later issues, but also for the benefit of those who do not obtain the magazine, the accessories have also been included on my website here http://www.homews.co.uk/page408.html 

The kit of parts has many uses some beyond use with dial indicators, typically, a mini instrument makers vice, photo 13.

Harold Hall


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## NoShopSkills

Since there was some interest...

The brass head of the hammer started life as a 3.5" piece of square .750" brass stock. The sharp tapers to the tail start 1.250" from the back and taper down to a .100" trailing edge.  The more subtle taper to the head, start 1" back from the face.  I remember my teacher critiquing that head tapers were cut incorrectly.  Only the corners were supposed to be tapered.  The layout lines on the original prints were trying to illustrate a chamfer to run on the 4 corners .150 deep at the face.  I cut off too much material.  The blue print (mimeo-graphed, as photo copiers had yet to be invented) intended to have the sides un-taperd to the face, giving the hammer more head weight than it has.  Not a problem. it's almost perfectly balanced.  Since it will never be used to hit anything anyhow, the extra bevels give more surfaces to reflect light.

The center hole for the handle is 1.625 aft of the face.  The .325 hole was under drilled and tapped to receive the threaded 3/4" end of the handle.  Sorry...can no longer remember the thread pitch, except that it was coarse and the blue prints were never saved by me. It's locktighted on and severely torqued in place. I remember clamping the handle in a wood jaw vice and using a 2' steel channel to torque the head on until the threads married.  Not sure if there is much galvanic activity between aluminum and brass, but it's now on there forever.

The 9" aluminum bar-stock handle is turned to .680 for 4.5 inches, then knurled.  A .200" bit is left un-knurled at both ends.  The remainder of the handle is turned and highly polished to a final dimension of .465.  All of the final finish was done by hand using files, then progressively finer emery cloth and ultimately hard hand polishing on a terry cloth towel, stretched taught on a flat piece of lumber, with rubbing compounds and finally "Brasso" brand metal polish as a mild abrasive.  

As an adult I now own the tools to make this project much easier than it was in H.S. shop class.


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## markknx

well it looks damd pretty!


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## Billk

chuckorlando said:


> I aint talking a true machinist on paper. There are some true machinist IMO that have never left their own garage. I'm talking a guy who can hit the mark, look at a drawing and see how to get to the end result, a problem solver and a thinker. Every one cant be a machinist but anyone can run a machine. The teacher gives us blue prints and send us on our way. Like yours, he has nothing to say unless we are wrong. He even lets us screw our own pooch and learn from it. But with out triangles your not getting to far with him and without gd&t you cant understand the prints. Our current project you need to mill two 20* angles with a reamed hole between them. You need trig for the sine bar and trig to find and check the angles. He dont expect us to know all about gd&t but you cant work off your datum if you dont even know what a datum is.
> 
> My point is you can become one of 3 kinds. If you wish to be what I would consider a machinist you need to know alot more then how to run a machine. If you cant find 21* on a lathe using just a indicator your not a machinist. If you cant set 7 holes in a 6.325 Dia circle equally spaced with pen and paper or at least just a calculator your not a machinist. And you almost certainly are not a machinist at the end of most machinist schools. And many who have 30yr on a mill, well they still are not a machinist.
> 
> Are you looking for blue prints of things to make? I can copy what we are doing as we do it. What machines do you have access to?



how do you find 21* on a lathe using just an indicator? Is this a way to set the compound to turn a taper? Also, I'd like to know how to figure a bolt circle using math instead of the online calculator that allows you to just punch in the numbers. I've worked in a few shops over the years and I've not ever had to use these methods. Now that I have some machines at home, I find I need to learn how to calculate angles and figure bolt circles to complete projects. I have an old bench top lathe ( six inch), several drill presses a grinder and some secondhand books. I have access to a larger lathe and a Bridgeport if I need them. My math isn't too bad ( algebra and some trig), but I can't always apply the knowledge to specific shop problems. If you don't mind sharing some ideas I'd appreciate it.
thanks.


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## chuckorlando

Well to set a 21* included angle you would need to set the compound at 10.5*. I use 1inch for easy math. I cant explain how to do all the math with pen and paper yet. But I can on a cheap casio fx-260 calculator. You need to find side opposite. 1in is your side adjacent.

Oscar Has A Heap Of Apples. o/h = sine, a/h = cosine, o/a = tangent   The top number devided by the angle will always give you the bottom number. The bottom number multiplied by the angle will always give you the top.

You have side A and need side O. So you need O from A you use tangent function.

A=1 so Ax10* 30' then hit tangent button then hit equal you should get .185339044.  That number is how much your dial indicator should travel from zero in 1in of compound slide movement.


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## chuckorlando

For bolt circle it's the same thing. If you need 6 holes in 6in circle evenly spaced. You have 360* circle. So divide your holes into you 360. 6/360=60* So each hole is 60* apart. So you know your radius is 3.0in cause thats half your dia.  So you know every triangle has a 3.0 hypotenuse. You devide the included angle of 60 by 2 and you get 30*

so 3.0 x sine of 30= 1.5 So O=1.5
3.0 x cosine of 30 = 2.59807

If you dont have any off set on the first hole it will be at  0y and +3x. The second hole will be at +1.5y and + 2.59807x 

Bear in mind I am just learning this stuff my self. There are tons of online and smart phone apps that can do most this for you. But I figure when you need it you need it. So I try to learn it. I still do alot of looking at notes and getting things wrong.


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## Bill Gruby

Here is an exercise for you. You have 7 holes evenly spaced on a 4.5 inch circle. #1 hole is at TDC. Count clockwise to hole #5. Using any math you wish, tell me the distance in inches to 3 places from the center od hole #1 to the center of hole #5 on the circumference.

 "Billy G"


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## chuckorlando

This is likely wrong but I'm gonna say 4.2771


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## Terrywerm

I came up with 8.078"

Here is how I did it:

Diameter x Pi to get total circumference   4.5 x 3.14159 = 14.137155

There are a total of seven sections of the circumference. Each section is 2.019593571"     (Circumference of 14.137155 divided by 7)

There are four sections of circumference between hole 1 and hole 5.   2.019593571 x 4 = 8.078374284"

Shortened up to three places gives 8.078"


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## Bill Gruby

Chuck --Never ever say you are wrong till you know for sure. Yes, you are wrong according to my calculations, but then who is to say I am not the one that is wrong. Ain't I a stinker. 


 "Billy G"

- - - Updated - - -

Terry so far you are the same as me.  You are smarter than the average bear. :lmao::lmao:

 "Billy G"


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## Terrywerm

Bill Gruby said:


> Chuck --Never ever say you are wrong till you know for sure. Yes, you are wrong according to my calculations, but then who is to say I am not the one that is wrong. Ain't I a stinker.
> 
> 
> "Billy G"
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Terry so far you are the same as me.  You are smarter than the average bear. :lmao::lmao:
> 
> "Billy G"




1. YES!  You are a stinker.  Glad we got that settled!

2. Maybe not smarter, just figured I would offer another way to calculate it without using the sine table. Sort of a double check on the math for those that did.


Another way to calculate it:  Diameter x Pi x 4/7    =   4.5*3.14159*4/7   =  8.078374285


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## chuckorlando

Actually you got me on circumference. I believe what I found the first time was the straight line distance from hole to hole. I then started all over to find the circ. I got an answer but it to was off. I got 10.09798.

Thanks for working that out and explaining it. I will be writing this in my notes.

Would you use a formula like this on say a roto table?

- - - Updated - - -

Not only was I wrong, but your way is so much easier then the chicken scratch I got over here. I drew up some to practice. Works perfect. Thanks guys





terrywerm said:


> 1. YES!  You are a stinker.  Glad we got that settled!
> 
> 2. Maybe not smarter, just figured I would offer another way to calculate it without using the sine table. Sort of a double check on the math for those that did.
> 
> 
> Another way to calculate it:  Diameter x Pi x 4/7    =   4.5*3.14159*4/7   =  8.078374285


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## Bill Gruby

No, in short. On a rotary table just divide 360 by the number of holes. A rotary table is in degrees not inches. Yes, this was a word oriented problem, the key word being Circumference. When you see a problem like this one it is best to read it more than once before jumping in. Your answer was correct for a straight line answer.

 "Billy G"


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## markknx

Bill Gruby said:


> No, in short. On a rotary table just divide 360 by the number of holes. A rotary table is in degrees not inches. Yes, this was a word oriented problem, the key word being Circumference. When you see a problem like this one it is best to read it more than once before jumping in. Your answer was correct for a straight line answer. "Billy G"


Yes this is why I have a rotary table, It takes me hours to look up the formulas, more hours for the math. However some time the mathe is the only way to do it.


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## burtonbr

Sorry for jumping in here, but trying to follow along to learn too, so I'm clear is the answer to the exercise 10.097 or 8.078? I think it's 10.097 but wanted to be sure..
thanks the OHAHOH will help me a lot.


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## chuckorlando

8.0783


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## burtonbr

OIC, thanks I see my mistake, only 4 spaces between hole #1&5, not 5 spaces. That is a good exercise.


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## Carlos SA

Okay, I've just been doing some work on the above hammer. 

Firstly I didn't have any square stock in brass, so I set about taking a piece of hex stock to size. The offcuts will be saved for the furnace. 





After I had cut it to rough dimensions I started filing the surfaces, a second cut pillar file worked well. Although I found it relatively easy to flatten the surface down the long way of the workpiece I had great difficulty getting it flat across the short way. I can only get it slightly rounded, not actually flat. Here's the workpiece in a four jaw chuck, about to be put on the lathe. 





After starting to turn it seems I was quite off on some of the surfaces, the one pictured here being the most out. 





I squared it up nicely, should be able to do some more work on it soon. 






I am going to have to wait to get the Southbend workshop projects book, I have someone coming over from the UK soon who is going to bring my books over but unfortunately I just missed a copy of the Southbend book! Oh well, next time. I've also picked up some stainless square stock for making dial indicator clamps, I still need a few more materials for those though. 

Carlos.


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## NoShopSkills

Carlos SA said:


> Okay, I've just been doing some work on the above hammer...
> 
> Carlos.



Wow... I am frickin' honored and humbled.


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## ome

NoShopSkills said:


> Since there was some interest...
> 
> The brass head of the hammer started life as a 3.5" piece of square .750" brass stock. The sharp tapers to the tail start 1.250" from the back and taper down to a .100" trailing edge.  The more subtle taper to the head, start 1" back from the face.  I remember my teacher critiquing that head tapers were cut incorrectly.  Only the corners were supposed to be tapered.  The layout lines on the original prints were trying to illustrate a chamfer to run on the 4 corners .150 deep at the face.  I cut off too much material.  The blue print (mimeo-graphed, as photo copiers had yet to be invented) intended to have the sides un-taperd to the face, giving the hammer more head weight than it has.  Not a problem. it's almost perfectly balanced.  Since it will never be used to hit anything anyhow, the extra bevels give more surfaces to reflect light.
> 
> The center hole for the handle is 1.625 aft of the face.  The .325 hole was under drilled and tapped to receive the threaded 3/4" end of the handle.  Sorry...can no longer remember the thread pitch, except that it was coarse and the blue prints were never saved by me. It's locktighted on and severely torqued in place. I remember clamping the handle in a wood jaw vice and using a 2' steel channel to torque the head on until the threads married.  Not sure if there is much galvanic activity between aluminum and brass, but it's now on there forever.
> 
> The 9" aluminum bar-stock handle is turned to .680 for 4.5 inches, then knurled.  A .200" bit is left un-knurled at both ends.  The remainder of the handle is turned and highly polished to a final dimension of .465.  All of the final finish was done by hand using files, then progressively finer emery cloth and ultimately hard hand polishing on a terry cloth towel, stretched taught on a flat piece of lumber, with rubbing compounds and finally "Brasso" brand metal polish as a mild abrasive.
> 
> As an adult I now own the tools to make this project much easier than it was in H.S. shop class.


Thank You so much,
I love the look of that hammer!  I am so inspired,  i want to try my best to make one. 
I wanted to personally thank you for taking the time to type out this thread. 
Simcerely,
Jon


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## Carlos SA

Okay, I've done a little more work with this. 

I decided I'll use a fly-cutter to machine the flats on the hammer. So I set about making a fly-cutter. 


The blanks I made are intended to be threaded on the shank so I can fix them to the faceplate. One of the blanks is not drilled as it is intended to be a counter weight. Seen below are the blanks.





The finished fly-cutter.









And a test on some scrap brass. 






Now I need to draw up my hammer design and get machining. I've attached drawings of the fly-cutter for those interested. 

Regards, 
Carlos.


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## Kevinb71

The duplicate counterweight is a good idea! Nice job!


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## Round in circles

Almost 50 yrs ago when I was a 15 yr old  boy  apprentice electro mechanical engineer in an engineering college , lathe work was the second years level of our apprentice ship . Mathematics , geometromy and trignometry were pounded in to our skulls every day for the first year along with electricity & magnetism , heat and light , workshop processes & materials .

Most of the first years hands on stuff was spent file pushing and learning how not to break hacksaw blades , how to use almost any sort of hand tool or workshop machinery safely & effectively , how to  sharpen twist drills and some basic blacksmithing .

The blacksmithing period resulted in a set of punches and cold steel chisels  comprising of a 4 " centre punch , a 4 " x 1/8 " round nose punch plus  a 6"x 1/4 & a 9" long 1/2 " round nose, The chisels were a 9 inch long diamond point  , a 6 " x1/2" & a 9 " x 3/4 inch cold chisel all in high carbon steel  which had to be correctly hardened and tempered using a bright red hot cast iron block out of the forge as the heat source for the hardening & tempering .

 The lathe work started out as making a set of four parallel pin punches and knurling the upper ends plus hardnening & tempering . Then to fit in with some of the file pushing exercises we'd done  in the first year  we turned screw threads , knurled the ends for finger grips and made a simple "  F " type hand held vice .

Some where around here I made a set of 3 & 6" calipers , a pair of dividers and an hermophrodite ( odd leg or jenny ) calliper and a case hardned scribing block for use on the marking table ( I use a 24 inch square sheet of 12 mm plate sheet float glass for my marking table these days ) .

Sheet metal work started to show it's ugly head. 
I made a 18 x 12 x 12 steel tool box with wired edges & an internal small tool tray .  Working out radi and spacing for precision blind aircraft rivets round a hole I had to cut and hand finish  in a curved Duralumin surface off a scrapped helicopter was very exacting and interesting as it was clamped vertical onto a post just for a buggerance factor and developing my skills..

 Machining started to appear around now and one of the exercises that really took my fancy was a lathe turned one inch cube out of a 1 & 1/2 " block that had to fit into a precision ground and milled 3 x 3 x 3 inch thick block of mild steel turned down to one inch thick plate with a centrally located one inch square clearance hole through the middle . Your 1" cube had to pass through at all faces and not have more than 1.5 thou of an inch clearance . It also had to be polished to a mirror finish.



I'm a recent new member to the site who has finally managed to get hold of a mint condition ancient 1943 British made  ( Atlas style of1942/3 or so )  Sphere  10 inch  lathe.

 I rewired it up with a safer emergency stop/ start button set to the right hand of the front side so that I'm always going to be well out of danger of things flying off the lathe when I start it up  after changing the gearing or inserting a work piece etc. 

 I've got to start making a few things before I get my sleeves rolled up and start turning up some 40 or so pieces of aluminium bar  .

Tonight I ordered 56 pounds of sensible sized bright steel off cuts from someone on eBay along with  the aluminium bar and a 100 mm x 100 mm x 10 mm thick lump of flat  bright steel bar which I will have to cut to 80 mm square and drill a 15 mm cente hole as it will become the packing base / washer  for my new to me quick change tool post .

 I have to make a new tool post holding " T " bolt or make a correctly sized " T " nut to fit the cross slide tool post mounting grove. 

All this preamble done I'll be running off the turned aluminium and then horror of horrors attempt to make a new cross slide handle in bright steel with a mounting keyway as the current one is missing one of the legs / arms .  
 If anyone has ever turned a mono block one on a bog standard lathe would you be so kind &  post general  destructions of how you did it please?


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## bfd

hello, my apprenticeship training consisted of a 5 hole hole pattern with the only spec given was 2 " on center 1/4" hole plus on minus .002" each hole was inspected by the instructor.  this taught you how to figure out triangles, move a mill and account for all slop in the mill on a mill with a tag on it that stated that the machine was finished in a hurry to meet wartime production needs. worn out years before. no dial indicators were allowed. and a major threading project which consisted of a single lead ,a double lead left handed. a 3 lead right handed and a 4 lead left handed acme with nuts to fit all threads measured with a 1 or 3 wire method. a taper sleeve and lots of work around the shop in many sections. mills, lathes, grinders, turret lathes cnc machining tool and cutter grinding tool and die maker section large machines , pump and valve rebuild carbide room and tool crib all this tool 4 years, It was a great apprenticeship and thanks to our government havinglots of time and money I learned a lot some easy some the hard way. bill


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## Christian Poulsen

I have various prints for an Apprentice (or newbe) that will require a Lathe, Mill, Surface Grinder and a torch (Oxy/Acetylene with a "rosebud" tip) and air compressor (for heat treat)...and a good, precision angle plate and a V block (s) (borrow?) to get started on making an angle plate 1st...They (the prints) are to make V blocks, angle plates, 123 blocks, parallels,  precision vices, sine bars...a universal block (to accept 5c collets) + hammers (nylon or delrin etc. on one side, brass on the other)...+ some other "stuff"... ifn' I can figure out how to copy and post them (the prints) here I will do so...all will need to be made out of a good tool steel such as D2 (my favorite air hardening tool steel to HT to rc58 to 60) and some "prehard" (maxel 3 1/2 (brand name) is my favorite (around rc30)...everybody during my 5 yr apprenticeship was able to make these during our 1st yr or so on our own time (but in those days Mgt looked the other way so we made them on Co. time!! (This proved to help make a better (skilled) employee for them)....once these items are done and made with pride yoose' are about half the way "there" (actually, after over 35 yrs of chewing metal I am and always will be only half the way there!) ...Cheers!!


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## BRIAN

A few years ago I designed a clock to be made by inexperienced  amateurs on a small lathe.
quite a few are being built around the world with good results.
 Have a look at my web site below or look at   http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/a-beginners-clock.9737  and see if this fits your needs . a full backup service is provided.
This is not an advertisement, just trying to point out other ways of learning.
Brian


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## 12bolts

Unfortunately Brian that link doesn't seem to work. I think one of the upgrades between then and now might have lost it

cheers Phil


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## hman

I think I've found it:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/a-beginners-clock.9737/
Somehow, the word "and" got appended to Brian's URL.


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## BRIAN

Thanks John, 
I had no idea what had happened my computer skills are very limited.
That's the big advantage of this forum, there is always a helping hand.

Brian.


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## Billh50

I never did any schooling for machining. I started off pushing a broach when I was 17. Then the guy in the grinding room asked me if I wanted to learn some grinding. Well he taught me centerless and surface grinding on the part they made there. Then one day he said to me. "Your young yet. If I was you I would go from job to job to learn the different things. Find the guy that has been at the place the longest and become his friend and ask questions. He will teach you all he can." Well I did that for 5 or 6 years and then finally started staying longer at places and most times ended up becoming their top man. I have at one time or another done almost everything you can do in a shop. I even did some time in engineering designing special machinery. I have run entire production floors as well. Don't get me wrong though. I have worked with some school taught folks that were top notch and some I wouldn't give a damn about. It is all about how bad a person wants to learn or how good they want to be at something. Anyone can turn handles and make something but a true machinist makes it a work of art and in most cases in less time.


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## bfd

also we each made a tiny alum arbor press, cut gears rack and pinion It was a nut cracker after 1979 til now I still have it, made v blocks 123 blocks. lucky me I was in the grinder section when they were ready to grind and I had the "fun" of grinding all the classes blocks to + - .0001 and square to within .0002 square. boy did I sweat that out. I didn' want to ruin any of my fellow classmates or teachers items. It was fun. also a deep hole extention. when I started training apprentices at work I dug Up the threading project and have required all the apprentices do the same thing. nuts and all. 2 apprenti made their project into a desk lamp. bill


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