# Keyless drill chuck function....



## Tipton1965 (Apr 4, 2021)

When I bought my 833TV I also purchased PM's high precision keyless drill chuck.  At the shop I worked at all drill chucks were keyed, so this is my first keyless as far as working on a milling machine.  How hard should it be to turn one of these keyless drill chucks?  I've used plenty of cordless drills with keyless chucks and they spin really easy.  The one I got from PM is rather stiff.   
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## 9t8z28 (Apr 4, 2021)

It should require the same to slightly more effort to rotate the chuck when compared to a keyed chuck.  Does it seem like there are tight spots or the effort to rotate it 360° is the same no matter how far the jaws are opened or closed?


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## mikey (Apr 4, 2021)

My Albrecht chucks spin easy, no tight spots or grittiness.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 4, 2021)

My PM keyless chuck was initially very stiff.  After a while, (and now) it is fine.  Had a tough time moving it at first, it was jammed tight.


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## darkzero (Apr 4, 2021)

I've got a Bison, a Glacern, & a couple of Albrecht keyless chucks, all of them spin easily & smooth. 

I do have a 5/16" capacity Jacobs Italy keyless chuck that is tighter than I like it to be, especially during the colder season. If it's been sitting for a while, if I run the jaws in & out a few times it loosens up. This tells me it's time for a cleaning & need replace the old grease. I don't use it that much so I haven't had the motivation to take it apart yet.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 4, 2021)

It is stiff full rotation.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 4, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> My PM keyless chuck was initially very stiff.


Sounds just like mine.


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## martik777 (Apr 4, 2021)

Sometimes my  import ones tighten up when I manually tighten them with pliers. If I loosen the bottom ring a bit they turn freely.


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## brino (Apr 4, 2021)

One other possible issue is how it's being used.

They can be self tightening, and things like interrupted cuts and reduced shank tools can put extra tightening torque on the chuck.

-brino


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## jwmelvin (Apr 5, 2021)

If it’s like mine, it’s not hard to release a bit, there’s just a lot of internal drag. Mine is clearly due to the grease in it as it’s much stiffer in the cold; the motion is very smooth just requires a lot of torque.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 5, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> If it’s like mine, it’s not hard to release a bit, there’s just a lot of internal drag. Mine is clearly due to the grease in it as it’s much stiffer in the cold; the motion is very smooth just requires a lot of torque.


Yeah mine is super smooth.....just takes more work than I think it should to operate it.


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## Winegrower (Apr 5, 2021)

I have several lower priced keyless chucks, and as Brino said, they can tighten up to excess.   That seems to happen on the lathe more than the mill, so I think a heavy lathe cut takes more torque than the mill might.   I don't use keyless on the lathe anymore as a result, except for a preloaded chuck with spotting drill...that's a pretty light cut.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 5, 2021)

Winegrower said:


> I have several lower priced keyless chucks, and as Brino said, they can tighten up to excess.   That seems to happen on the lathe more than the mill, so I think a heavy lathe cut takes more torque than the mill might.   I don't use keyless on the lathe anymore as a result, except for a preloaded chuck with spotting drill...that's a pretty light cut.


I'm actually wishing I would have just purchased a keyed chuck.  Old habits I guess.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Apr 5, 2021)

My PM high precision keyless chuck is smooth and spins about how I think it should.  Just doesnt have a whole lot of holding power. If I try and use the blue wrench it can help but it breaks free of the taper pretty easily. Not sure I should be using the wrench but if my drill keeps slipping I do. Good for tapping I suppose...


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 5, 2021)

So what's a good keyed drill chuck with a 1/2" round shank that's pretty accurate?  That's another thing I don't like about my keyless is the integrated R8 shaft.  You have to raise the head high to change it out.


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## brino (Apr 5, 2021)

nighthawkFmobil said:


> Good for tapping I suppose...



Tapping with a keyless chuck is a whole new issue......they self-loosen when used in reverse.
I find my keyless chuck to be useless on the lathe for tapping (when turning the spindle by hand).
Every time I reverse to break chips the chuck lets go of the tap.

....and please no comments about not using a tailstock chuck on taps.....I know that should not be done, blah, blah, blah.
Lacking a decent and quick alternative, I will continue to do it.

-brino


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## WobblyHand (Apr 5, 2021)

My PM precision keyless chuck has smoothed out considerably.  My guess is they pack it with grease that is for higher temperatures, and it gets stiff at lower temperatures.  My shop has been below at or below 60F for the winter.  Consequently the chuck has been harder to turn.  The colder it has been the stiffer the grease.

As an experiment, try warming it up with a hairdryer, _warm_, not hot.  Does it get easier to turn?  If so, maybe it needs a more appropriate grease for the bearings.

My keyless chuck holds ok.  Haven't spun any drill bits yet.  (Unlike my old keyless chuck that I had on my Craftsman hand drill.)

All that aside, if I were to do it again, I'd get a keyed drill chuck.  Why?  If your mill doesn't have a spindle lock, (PM25) you need a wrench to hold the spindle to tighten the chuck.  It kind of defeats the purpose of a tool-less chuck.  My keyless chuck is stiff enough that tightening the chuck causes the spindle to rotate.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 5, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> All that aside, if I were to do it again, I'd get a keyed drill chuck.  Why?  If your mill doesn't have a spindle lock, (PM25) you need a wrench to hold the spindle to tighten the chuck.  It kind of defeats the purpose of a tool-less chuck.  My keyless chuck is stiff enough that tightening the chuck causes the spindle to rotate.


That's yet another reason I want to switch to a keyed chuck.  The same scenario is required with my 833TV.


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## darkzero (Apr 5, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> if I were to do it again, I'd get a keyed drill chuck. Why? If your mill doesn't have a spindle lock, (PM25) you need a wrench to hold the spindle to tighten the chuck. It kind of defeats the purpose of a tool-less chuck. My keyless chuck is stiff enough that tightening the chuck causes the spindle to rotate.



Valid point & I can relate but keyless chucks come in different configurations. Integral arbor keyless chucks often don't come with the collar grip. I'm assuming that's what you have.

When I was tooling up my mill I bought an integral keyless chuck from Glacern. Because it doesn't have the collar it's shorter so I figured that would allow me to have more Z capacity & being an integral arbor in theory it should have less runout than a chuck with a seperate arbor. I have a gearhead mill so most of the time I would put it in low gear & just tighting the chuck by hand would suffice since a keyless chuck will grip tighter as it's drilling. But sometimes I would need to hold the spindle nose by hand to tighten. This was before I got a spindle lock.

Eventually I got sick of it. I do have a spindle lock now but long before getting it I bought a "regular" Glacern keyless chuck with seperate arbor so I could have the grip collar. Sold the integral chuck & couldn't be happier (that is until I was given a Albrecht). That was the first time I've ever bought/used an integral, I'll never buy an integral again if I ever need to buy another drill chuck. 

In the end, runout was not any worse & I still haven't had an issue with running out of Z due to the slightly longer chuck. Integral chucks are great for the tailstock in the lathe though. Even having a spindle lock on the mill I still prefer not to have an integral chuck because of the lack of the collar. There are those who don't like em but I prefer to use a keyless chuck, it's what I'll grab first. I do still use keyed chucks too sometimes though.

Here you can see the difference.


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## macardoso (Apr 5, 2021)

All of my chucks have come greased with stiff grease. Over time they will loosen up, or you can open them up and clean.

A leather belt on the knurling used as a strap wrench works well.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 5, 2021)

darkzero said:


> Valid point & I can relate but keyless chucks come in different configurations. Integral arbor keyless chucks often don't come with the collar grip. I'm assuming that's what you have.


Yes, mine is integral arbor.  I need a spindle wrench for both tightening and loosening.  And if you have a larger diameter drill bit installed, you need more than two hands(!) to safely loosen and remove the bit.  One for the spindle wrench, one to grasp the chuck body, and at least remember to have a finger against the bit to prevent it from dropping.  Yes, that surprised me ONCE.

With a key, one hand is on the chuck key, the other on the drill bit.

Don't get me wrong, the keyless chuck is a beautiful piece, and I'm sure your Albrecht is even nicer, but a integral arbor keyless chuck really benefits from a spindle lock - otherwise it is a fiddly affair.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 5, 2021)

macardoso said:


> All of my chucks have come greased with stiff grease. Over time they will loosen up, or you can open them up and clean.
> 
> A leather belt on the knurling used as a strap wrench works well.


Wished I knew about using a leather belt as a strap wrench before, that is a good tip.

My chuck was stuck open all the way when I received it.  It was incredibly difficult to get it to move initially.  I've suppressed the memory, probably did something _shameful_ to get it to move the first time.   But, as you say, it has loosened up.  At this point it is fine, but it takes 2 hands plus a finger or two to remove a drill without dropping the bit.


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## macardoso (Apr 5, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> Wished I knew about using a leather belt as a strap wrench before, that is a good tip.
> 
> My chuck was stuck open all the way when I received it.  It was incredibly difficult to get it to move initially.  I've suppressed the memory, probably did something _shameful_ to get it to move the first time.   But, as you say, it has loosened up.  At this point it is fine, but it takes 2 hands plus a finger or two to remove a drill without dropping the bit.


I think I know where you went with that (*screaming intensifies*). The belt as a strap wrench is super handy


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## mikey (Apr 5, 2021)

If I were you guys, I would take the chuck apart, clean it well and use SuperLube synthetic grease to lube it. That stuff is stable down to -45 degrees and should not stiffen up in climates most of us can live in. 

I would also reserve judgement on keyless chucks until you get yours working the way it should. It should take seconds to change drills, with very little hand torque to loosen or tighten the chuck and it should lock solidly. If your PM chuck does not work this way, rather than go with a keyed chuck I would sell it and buy an Albrecht or Rohm Spiro chuck. Yes, I know they're expensive but if you watch ebay you can find one. My last 1/2" Albrecht and Spiro chucks were both brand new and both cost less than even the cheapest of the PM chucks. Of course, my eBay-Fu is mighty but if you are patient and diligent, you will find it.

Like Will, I do not own integral shanked chucks. You need the fixed collar on the chuck if you don't have a spindle lock so better to go with a JT chuck that comes with the collar. 

Personally, I own a 14N Jacobs Super Chuck with the stupid key and it hasn't seen the light of day for years. It is a fine chuck but it is too slow and cumbersome to use. Go with what you think is best, of course, but compared to an Albrecht Classic or a Rohm Spiro, a Jacobs keyed chuck would not be my personal choice.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 5, 2021)

I may do that, if it annoys me enough.  Mine works ok, at this point, however.  How are these chucks typically disassembled?  I've never disassembled a chuck before.  Mine's with integral arbor.  PM doesn't seem to have a part's diagram or expanded diagram of it, at least that I can find.  Mine's the ultra-precision keyless chuck SKU: KDCRS-13R8T  There's not much to hold on to!  A knurled section and the R8 section.


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## mikey (Apr 5, 2021)

I have not disassembled one of these chucks so hopefully someone who has will come along. I've done Albrecht only.

If I had to hold that thing to try to get the hood off, I would lock the shank in an ER collet block and carefully turn the hood off (RH thread) with a strap wrench and then go from there.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 5, 2021)

mikey said:


> You need the fixed collar on the chuck if you don't have a spindle lock so better to go with a JT chuck that comes with the collar.


That's where I made my mistake by buying a keyless chuck without a fixed collar to grab to keep the spindle from turning while I tighten.  I did a small job on my mill today and it was painful using my keyless chuck.  I'm definitely going to have to do something different.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 5, 2021)

I'd say it wasn't convenient, but it's not actually painful.  

I contacted PM today and they said their ultra-precision keyless chuck is not a serviceable item and said these chucks are not meant to be taken apart. They did say if it was really stiff, or really tightened up one could soak it in WD40 and work it to free it up.  

I may try to get mine apart tomorrow.  If I can't grip it well enough, I will let it be.  Mine's not actually broken so there's no actual need to mess with it.  Just curiosity, at this point.


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## Downunder Bob (Apr 5, 2021)

I have two keyless chucks, both on MT3 tapers for the lathe.  A Chum Power JT6 0.3 to 13mm made in Taiwan. A beautiful chuck have never had a drill spin while in use and I hand tighten only although it does have two holes for toggle bars I've never had to use them, this chuck came with my lathe.

The other has no markings other than B18. 1 - 16mm Again  a beautiful chuck never had drill spin while in use. I have just looked and found a number of look alikes on eBay from A$30 to $40. I don't remember where I got mine but quite possibly one of these sellers. Both of these keyless chucks are comfortably firm in use, quite smooth and very easy to use. I think the B18 refers to the arbor size.

I also have  an old Jacobs 1/2" keyed chuck also on MT3 but with the other two I just never use it, they just don't grip as good. And I'm always losing the key.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 6, 2021)

I'm still running things through my head on this.  On a lathe I can see how the keyless chuck would work great.  The drill bit is horizontal and there's less chance of it falling when you loosen the chuck to change it out.  But on a mill you basically have to use both hands to tighten and loosen the drill bit and need a 3rd hand to hold the bit.  Even having the knurled shoulder you're still using both hands to tighten and loosen.  I suppose you could put a finger on the bit but I found out by using my keyless chuck that it's easy to get the bit started crooked.  Also when you go from a large bit to a smaller one you have to use both hands to reduce the chuck down to grab the smaller bit.  In between you have to grab the smaller bit, check to see if you have the chuck reduced down small enough, put the bit back down because you need to reduce the chuck more, etc.  It would be nice if the keyless chuck was free enough to spin without the machine spindle turning in which case you could hold the bit in one hand and adjust the chuck with the other and hold the bit tight enough in the chuck to let go and then use both hands to tighten. 

With a keyed chuck you get to hold the bit in one hand and tighten and loosen the chuck with the other.  Plus there's almost no chance of dropping the bit when you loosen or tighten the chuck because you have a full hand on it not just a finger in some contortionist position.  Plus when you are switching drill sizes you can hold the bit right near the chuck as you adjust for that size bit. So far I'm missing the appeal of a keyless drill chuck.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 6, 2021)

I have one on a lathe, it's great, save for the extra room it takes up.  

On a mill, I guess one gets used to it.  Have to agree on the contortionist finger move you need to do, it's not very natural.  On the other hand, not having to worry about where the key is, really is a good thing.  Those keys seem to have little legs...


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## mikey (Apr 6, 2021)

My chucks don't require you to hold the collar to remove and replace a drill. The hood spins with one hand to move the jaws and the other hand holds the drill to get it in or out of the chuck. The chuck doesn't rotate while this is happening. 

If you are having this kind of trouble then no wonder why you're so disenchanted with keyless chucks. Get get yourselves an Albrecht or Rohm chuck and I think your issues will go away.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 6, 2021)

@mikey does your mill have a spindle lock?  My PM25 doesn't and apparently @Tipton1965's PM mill doesn't. That's part of what makes these particular keyless chucks a little tricky.  If there was a spindle lock, this wouldn't be an issue.  Or if the hood spun easily relative to the spindle.  But this style chuck does not spin easily.  By design it appear to be smooth but very viscous.  It requires far more torque to open or close the chuck than to turn the spindle.

It isn't horrible, but it could be a heck of a lot easier to use.

The Rohm keyless chuck on my lathe is really nice.  No problems at all with it.  If I found either an Albrecht or Rohm, I wouldn't hesitate buying it.


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## mikey (Apr 6, 2021)

Nope, no spindle lock and no problems.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 6, 2021)

mikey said:


> Nope, no spindle lock and no problems.


When you say the hood spins are you talking about the knurled collar area?  And that area turns free enough to not have to worry about a spindle lock?  Are you in a low gear when you tighten?  My machine is belt driven with a VFD so I don't have the luxury of switching to a low gear to tighten my chuck.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 6, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> The Rohm keyless chuck on my lathe is really nice.  No problems at all with it.  If I found either an Albrecht or Rohm, I wouldn't hesitate buying it.


If that same Rohm chuck that you have on your lathe was used on your mill would you still have issues?  Is it easier to tighten than your PM chuck?


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 6, 2021)

Here's a video of a Grizzly keyless chuck with the upper collar.  The guy is able to turn the collar with his thumb easily with one hand.  Now that kind of smooth function would be way different that what I am experiencing with my PM chuck.


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## mikey (Apr 6, 2021)

Tipton1965 said:


> When you say the hood spins are you talking about the knurled collar area?  And that area turns free enough to not have to worry about a spindle lock?  Are you in a low gear when you tighten?  My machine is belt driven with a VFD so I don't have the luxury of switching to a low gear to tighten my chuck.



The hood is the larger knurled structure up front that turns when you tighten the chuck and yes, it turns freely to loosen and tighten the jaws. Most of the time, I don't even grab the collar to tighten or loosen the chuck. I just give the hood a quick turn to lock or loosen it. My mill is belt drive so no gears but so is my drill press and my Albrecht chuck works the exact same way. 

Believe it or not, the chuck does make a difference, as does the grease you use inside of it. 

Here is an example of a chuck I would consider. You can see the knurling is not beat up from some bozo grabbing it with pliers, the hood shows no signs of the chuck being crashed, the jaws meet together as they should and the jaws are pristine. The seller is asking about half what a new Spiro costs but I suspect he will go lower, like maybe $100-110 or so. It has a 1/2" straight shank that can be chucked up in a collet or you can pop it out and install whatever arbor you need. The Sprio is not as smooth or precise as an Albrecht but it is still better than most keyless chucks on the market. Run out is supposed to be around 0.004" or less.

This is what a decent used Albrecht looks like. The collar shows it was gripped with something but not too bad. You can see the knurling on the collar and the hood shows little signs of wear. The hood and body show almost no signs of use. One jaw has a little chip on it but that won't affect the function of the chuck. Note that the outer surface of the jaws are nearly pristine. Taken together, this is a low mileage chuck that should clean up and function just fine. A brand new chuck like this sells for over $400 and can go over $600 from some stupid sellers. If I wanted to buy this chuck, I would contact the seller and ask him what his rock bottom price is. 

If I bought either of these chucks I would take it apart, clean it well and grease it SuperLube. I wrote up how to do that here.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 6, 2021)

@mikey thanks for the examples.  I think the design of the PM keyless chuck is just to a different price point.  It's ok, but not in the same league as the Rohm and Albrecht.  And I do agree with Tipton1965, it is not that easy to use.

@Tipton1965, my Rohm lathe keyless drill chuck is smooth and easy to turn.  It is an excellent chuck.


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## erikmannie (Apr 6, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> My PM keyless chuck was initially very stiff.  After a while, (and now) it is fine.  Had a tough time moving it at first, it was jammed tight.



This is my experience also with both the PM keyless chucks that I own. All good now.


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## xr650rRider (Apr 7, 2021)

I've got the PM Ultra precision chucks for PM-1340GT lathe and PM-30MV mill, they are excellent.  I've had to use spanner maybe 2 times to loosen on lathe with a 1" diameter drill bit, never had to use on mill.  Maybe I've got big hands but easy to loosen chuck with at least one finger wrapped around bit to keep it from dropping on table.  The PM-30MV has a wrench with 2 big flats and hold wrench in right hand, tighten chuck with left, easy as can be.  I'd never ever go back to a keyed chuck.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 7, 2021)

xr650rRider said:


> The PM-30MV has a wrench with 2 big flats and hold wrench in right hand, tighten chuck with left, easy as can be.  I'd never ever go back to a keyed chuck.


I talked with PM today about the drill chuck issue with the 833TV.  They are sending me a wrench and some sort of device that attaches to the spindle so I can hold the spindle solid while I operate the chuck.  We will see how it works out.


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## erikmannie (Apr 7, 2021)

xr650rRider said:


> I've got the PM Ultra precision chucks for PM-1340GT lathe and PM-30MV mill, they are excellent.  I've had to use spanner maybe 2 times to loosen on lathe with a 1" diameter drill bit, never had to use on mill.  Maybe I've got big hands but easy to loosen chuck with at least one finger wrapped around bit to keep it from dropping on table.  The PM-30MV has a wrench with 2 big flats and hold wrench in right hand, tighten chuck with left, easy as can be.  I'd never ever go back to a keyed chuck.



I’m no expert, but I have read in a few places to not use a drill larger than 1/2” in a (1/2” max) keyless chuck because a drill larger than that has enough leverage to make the chuck too tight.

You can imagine how much leverage a 1” drill would have.


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## xr650rRider (Apr 8, 2021)

That's true but also not true if you've taken several steps to get to 1".  Also dependent on what material your drilling.  But no, I wouldn't drill a pilot and then try to hog out with a 1" bit.


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## Lucas E (Apr 8, 2021)

Tipton1965 said:


> I talked with PM today about the drill chuck issue with the 833TV.  They are sending me a wrench and some sort of device that attaches to the spindle so I can hold the spindle solid while I operate the chuck.  We will see how it works out.


I noticed they had some sort of clamp on device with wrench flats in the new 833TV manual. Post some pictures when you get it will you? Seems like it might help with the belt drive and no spindle lock, however I use an indicol regularly and it looked to take up the space where I usually mount it.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 8, 2021)

Lucas E said:


> Post some pictures when you get it will you?


Will do.


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## Larry$ (Apr 8, 2021)

I've got two PM keyless chucks. Both were stiff when new but are now reasonably free turning. The one on the lathe has an MT3 tang that locks so no chance of spinning in the taper. The mill is R8 and yes putting it in takes lots of clearance but a quick move of the table either up/down or X takes care of that. I have DRO & power knee. I also have keyed chucks but haven't used them in a long time. I use a 1" S&D drill but always after a 1/2". In steel I'll give the chuck a bit extra snugging with the pin spanner, just habit never had an issue.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 9, 2021)

I ended up buying an affordable Chum Power keyless drill chuck made in Taiwan.  It was delivered today and it is extremely easy to turn compared to the PM chuck.  Plus it has the upper collar so no fiddling around with a wrench up top on the draw bar to tighten or loosen.


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## WobblyHand (Apr 9, 2021)

Let us know how you like it in a week or so.  It's good to know if your favorable impression is maintained.
Where did you get it?  When you get it mounted up and installed, what is the TIR?


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 9, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> Let us know how you like it in a week or so.  It's good to know if your favorable impression is maintained.
> Where did you get it?  When you get it mounted up and installed, what is the TIR?


I got it from Amazon.  I'll let you know on the runout.  My Precision Mathews chuck has .004" runout. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08FX3VNP...pY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1


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## mikey (Apr 10, 2021)

So, do you need three hands to remove and replace a drill bit? If not, then you're good to go.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 10, 2021)

mikey said:


> So, do you need three hands to remove and replace a drill bit? If not, then you're good to go.


Happy to report that I no longer need three hands.  I can turn this chuck without the spindle on my machine turning.  I bet I could actually chuck up a drill bit with one hand.  Way happier.  The runout is slightly better than the PM chuck.


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