# First Goal With First Machine - A South Bend



## Joe Kuhn (Dec 4, 2016)

Helped my son purchase a South Bend recently with the idea to make these (shown in the middle).




This part is for a Lazy Boy chair leg extension.  A repairman came to our house last year and explained he can't get metal ones anymore and is stuck using a plastic version as shown on the right.  The plastic ones don't last.  So that's our first goal.  I've looked all over the internet for a similar shoulder bolt and cannot find one with the correct dimensions.  

So here's our South Bend being installed. There are a few parts to be put on yet after cleaning.  Also need new belts and probably a new motor.  




And here you can see the tag on the machine.




It looks like a great website you all have here.


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## jpfabricator (Dec 4, 2016)

Welcome aboard!

Sent from somwhere in east Texas by Jake!


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## Joe Kuhn (Dec 4, 2016)

Great!  Special oils came yesterday and any help on how to clean the lathe would be appreciated.


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## T Bredehoft (Dec 4, 2016)

I applaud your finding a needed product and working toward supplying it. This makes a hobby profitable.


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## davidh (Dec 5, 2016)

i clean with disc brake spray cleaner and lots of Bounty paper towels, i have no problem with "safety police" around here and all my stuff is in its own building with an exhaust fan.  a set of brass bristle brushes from "horror freight" would also be a plus. .
lots of paper towels and leave them outside to evaporate so you can properly dispose them without any fire problems.   you could also try simple green, or similar products.


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## Tersti (Dec 5, 2016)

The advice I got from someone who used to be a mechanic in the years just after the world wars was to use parrafin to clean almost everything because it A) works well, B) is cheap, and C) leaves a waxy residue on everything which can behave like a lubricant and protective layer. Stuff like WD40 and brake cleaner is great for stripping away oil and if you plan to treat that surface later with something else that's great, but in my experience with motorcycles chemicals like that can leave surfaces so clean that they quickly rust later. Acids are the harshest cleaners of all if you have something really tough to get off the surface of metal but you will get flash rusting if you don't immediately treat the surfaces afterwards (think 60 seconds or so).

When I cleaned my lathe using parrafin in a tub I found metal particles tended to accumulate in the parrafin and brushing those off the parts when they were dry turned out to be a massive job by itself so the suggestion of spraying something on and using paper towels is a good one. Since I have to do a lot of cleaning regularly I'm thinking of hooking up a pump and filter to circulate parrafin and keep it clean while I'm using it.


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## T Bredehoft (Dec 5, 2016)

For those that are unfamiliar with Paraffin, it's another name for Kerosene, not white waxy stuff.


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## Joe Kuhn (Jan 8, 2017)

Kerosene is what we ended up using.  My son took a lot of the machine apart to get it as clean as possible which was good for him in terms of learning about the machine. It  was fun to see the color appear after getting some of the grease off.  He oiled it up right away after the cleaning.

Next we need a felt kit and we're kind of stuck there.  Son said something about South Bend A, B or C kits and we don't even know what we have.  He did some research on line and we think the year of mfr is 1931.  Here's what we know for sure:

9" by 3-1/2 feet, Catalog No. 22ZB, serial # 49512. 

We have been kind of busy bringing the lathe in from the shed to our basement.  With the cold weather, it just wasn't going to work out there with a Kerosene heater.  One day Johnny turned the heater on the the lathe turned white from the moisture when it warmed up.  We've re-installed in the basement now and are finishing up with some support tables and shelving.  The kid like building anything, so it has been a very good project, but when I asked him if he'd like to focus on wood instead, he said NO.


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## brino (Jan 8, 2017)

Good for you Joe, support your son's interest in machines. Stoke that fire.
Even if it doesn't lead to a vocation, it will mean he's not overcharged for parts he can make himself.

I believe the trailing "B" means that the lathe originally shipped with an enclosed base/bench.
I will try to dig up a catalog of that model when I get a chance.

-brino

EDIT: I see that is not a model with the quick-change gear box. Did you get some gears with it?


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## Joe Kuhn (Jan 8, 2017)

brino said:


> Good for you Joe, support your son's interest in machines. Stoke that fire.
> Even if it doesn't lead to a vocation, it will mean he's not overcharged for parts he can make himself.
> 
> I believe the trailing "B" means that the lathe originally shipped with an enclosed base/bench.
> ...


Yes, we got quite a stack of gears with it.  They don't look like they've been used at all.  In fact the machine looks hardly used where you would expect wear.

If you could help us figure out which felt kit to get: A, B or C, we would both appreciate it.  My son doesn't think it's a B even though the catalog # is 22ZB.  I would just buy the one with the most pieces and use what is needed, but that just puts off the question, what goes where.


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## Joe Kuhn (Jan 8, 2017)

Johnny wanted to see what his basement shop would look like with length wise tables, which we started making, versus cross-wise tables.  He downloaded some software and figured out how to use it.




He settled on cross-wise tables as shown above.  My bench and 2 sets of shelves are in the upper right.  The lathe will go to the left of that with a support table and in the lower right is our table saw and it's support table.  The scary thing is he and his mother started drawing up the house and changing the design.  I got him back in the basement fast!


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## Joe Kuhn (Jan 8, 2017)

Here's the lathe just before cleaning.  That's yellow paint on the inside there.


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## brino (Jan 8, 2017)

Hi Joe,

The good news: I found your exact lathe model number in a catalog from 1931. I just uploaded a pdf copy to here:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/southbend-9-inch-junior-lathes-catalog-22c-1931.3151/

Page 4 (of 24) lists the model 22-ZB.

The bad news: that same catalog page convinced me that I was wrong above. For later model years the trailing "B" means it came with a bench.
For yours, I have no clue what it means! Sorry.
I did a quick look thru that catalog and did not see the answer........but I went pretty quick.

However, I bet someone here knows the answer.

-brino


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## Joe Kuhn (Jan 8, 2017)

Yes, that's it on page 4.  I don't see anything in there about felt kits.  Darn.  I bet Johnny will be referring to this document quite a bit.  Thank you.

Joe


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## LucknowKen (Jan 9, 2017)

Joe Kuhn said:


> If you could help us figure out which felt kit to get: A, B or C, we would both appreciate it.  My son doesn't think it's a B even though the catalog # is 22ZB.  I would just buy the one with the most pieces and use what is needed, but that just puts off the question, what goes where.


Hi Joe: I do not believe there are that many felts in that machine. The felt kits on the Ebay are for lathes after the 40s. I may wrong but those kits are for SBLs with side oilers not center oilers like in your photo. Your machine came before the ABC designation. ....i think.


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## brino (Jan 9, 2017)

LucknowKen said:


> Your machine came before the ABC designation. ....i think.


@LucknowKen, that's interesting. I wonder when the A, B, C designations started. 
I believe they eventually indicated things like whether it had a quick-change gear box, power cross-feed, etc.

@Joe Kuhn, if you haven't found it yet have a look at the SouthBend book 'How to Run a Lathe". There are several versions in the download section (as well as many other great references), here is one version:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/sb-how-to-run-a-lathe-1966-27th-edition-56-pdf.2909/

-brino


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## Joe Kuhn (Jan 9, 2017)

LucknowKen said:


> Hi Joe: I do not believe there are that many felts in that machine. The felt kits on the Ebay are for lathes after the 40s. I may wrong but those kits are for SBLs with side oilers not center oilers like in your photo. Your machine came before the ABC designation. ....i think.


Yes, my son only found a few when he cleaned it, but being raw beginners we don't really know how to proceed.  Oil up what we have and don't worry about it?


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## Joe Kuhn (Jan 9, 2017)

brino said:


> @LucknowKen, that's interesting. I wonder when the A, B, C designations started.
> I believe they eventually indicated things like whether it had a quick-change gear box, power cross-feed, etc.
> 
> @Joe Kuhn, if you haven't found it yet have a look at the SouthBend book 'How to Run a Lathe". There are several versions in the download section (as well as many other great references), here is one version:
> ...


Johnny has found that book and went through it.  I don't know how thoroughly, but we are looking at belt options next.  

Thanks everybody for the help.  You guys must watch the beginner's forum for people like us.  Well, we appreciate it.  Know that it keeps us moving forward.


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## LucknowKen (Jan 9, 2017)

Joe Kuhn said:


> Yes, my son only found a few when he cleaned it, but being raw beginners we don't really know how to proceed.  Oil up what we have and don't worry about it?


Hi Joe: Do you mean use the old felts?
If the felts a perfect, and clean. That is not too likely.
Cut strips to size. Firm pure wool felt is best.
I got my felt from old piano hammers. Also i have used felt from insoles and even old (old) goalie pads.
It has to be felt of pure wool. It is true it can be difficult to find pure wool felt, most now is synthetic.
Synthetic felt will not allow the oil to flow to the target (bearing) consistently.
Also like you said previously, the Ebay kits are fine, but you would end up with some spare items.  
lk


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## LucknowKen (Jan 9, 2017)

Joe Kuhn said:


> Johnny has found that book and went through it.  I don't know how thoroughly, but we are looking at belt options next. Thanks everybody for the help.


Southbend's HTRAlL was a good call from Brino. Almost everything is in there somewhere.
As for a belt, you have a few options. If the machine will not be relocated the automotive timing belt is the preferred option (imho). That belt requires removal of the headstock spindle and countershaft.
I use the clip laced leather belts, because they are the easiest to repair /replace.
Early leather flat belts were laced, literally with soft wire or cat gut.
There are also guys that glue their belts, leather or rubber or even automotive seat belt.
In general i find with SBL: when in doubt, stick to the configuration it had when it left the factory.
lk

This edit might help:
This is from WSWells:

Up until 1934 SB lathes we coated with japanning. 
Series "O" machines had the single wall apron.
Series "O" all have a star knob that is loosened shifted and tightened to select cross, neutral or long feeds.
Series "N" aprons have a knob that you push in and pull out for this function.
The double wall apron series "N" may not have been made after the late thirties (1937) due to market forces.
The R series lathes came out in the early thirties (1934). An R series lathe can always be identified because it will have the double wall apron with the more modern feed shift handle rather than star knob shifter.
If your workshop lathe is a 34 or 35 it's a catalog 405. It can be identified by the 1 3/8-10 spindle thread and the fact that it has no reveres shifter and the lead screw is left hand thread. If it does not have these three things then its not a 405. If it has the 1 1/2-8 spindle thread and has two bolts to hold each spindle bearing cap on its a catalog 520 toolmakers lathe. If it has just one bolt on each head stock bearing cap and has the 1 1/2-8 spindle and has a reverse shifter with right hand thread lead screw its a catalog 415. All three of these lathes will have the spindle oilier on top of the head stock bearing caps.

>>>>>


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## Glenn Brooks (Jan 10, 2017)

Yep, your lathe predates SB's A, B, C designations.  If I remember correctly, A is a gear change lathe, B, has automatic cross feeds (I think)' and  C is equipped with a quick change gear box.  So yours ( and my 1924 9x36 SB) are earlier models, with slightly different sized beds etc.  but, essentially the same machine. 

FWIW, I recently restored a smaller 7x36 Belt driven Dalton Lathe.  I used a Napa, automotive sertintine belt for the back gear, and a simple V belt for the engine drive pulley.  The serpentine belt works just fine. Quick to install, smooth running, and long lasting. Good to learn with and it will get you up and running quickly.

Glenn


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## 4GSR (Jan 10, 2017)

brino said:


> @LucknowKen, that's interesting. I wonder when the A, B, C designations started.
> I believe they eventually indicated things like whether it had a quick-change gear box, power cross-feed, etc.
> 
> -brino



Brino,

I believe the A,B,C, versions of the 9" lathe started around 1938-1939 and continued all the way up to it's end in the 1980's.  You actually have to look at catalog dates to get an idea of this.  I don't think Steve mentions this on his website other that it's right after the 405, 415 series existed.  Of course, this is when the top oilers went to the side.

Ken


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## 4GSR (Jan 10, 2017)

Joe Kuhn said:


> Here's the lathe just before cleaning.  That's yellow paint on the inside there.


That started out as a "off white" or "Almond" color.  This was a pretty common color used by many lathe builders who painted the inside of the bed of their lathes.  I sometime do the same and use Rustoleum's "Gloss Almond" color paint, almost a perfect match.


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## Joe Kuhn (Jan 10, 2017)

Thanks for the ideas on the belt.  Will task Johnny with finding real wool felt.  That kid can search the internet like there's no tomorrow.


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## Glenn Brooks (Jan 11, 2017)

You might check McMaster Carr. They sell felt in several thicknesses.  Not sure if it is real wool felt, but another member on here sent me a scrap last year for my Dalton Lathe rebuild (only needed  couple inches of 1/8" strips for an oil distribution channel in my back gear bushings).  Worked real well.  

Glenn


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