# Starting a new shop building



## Investigator (Jul 21, 2020)

I thought some here might like to follow along.  I have started a new shop build, it will be a 30x40 building here on my property.  Today was concrete day.




I set the forms myself, I am putting a lot of sweat equity into this.  I know it's 30x40, but it sure looks small.   This will be "the" shop meaning I will be moving all my stuff out so my wife can have a garage to park in.  This will house both my woodworking and metalworking 'stuff'.  I'll be glad to answer any questions I can about the build or layout or my thought process, if anyone is interested.


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## Barncat (Jul 21, 2020)

Very jealous


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## Barncat (Jul 21, 2020)

Stick built? Or metal frame bolt to slab?


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## vtcnc (Jul 21, 2020)

Following this!!

Are you separating the wood shop from the metalworking shop with a partition/full wall?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cbellanca (Jul 21, 2020)

Did you consider any under ground power or dust collection piping in the center areas of the floor?


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## wrat (Jul 21, 2020)

30 x 40  with some nice fat feeder lines.
That's about as good as it gets for a man to have.
Seen that Texas gets their panties in a wad about basements, so I guess you'll have run overheads on everything.
I'm sure it'll be a great project.


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## NCjeeper (Jul 21, 2020)

Pole barn or red iron I beam?


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## Investigator (Jul 21, 2020)

Wow, guess there is some interest in this, only gone a few hours lol. 

So, 6'ish years ago wife and I bought 27 acres in the country.  Until this year our closest neighbor was about a mile away.  Now, closest neighbors are about  1/4-1/2 mile on either side, still surrounded by about 2000 acres of unimproved land, mostly mesquite trees.  Not only can I not see anyone elses home from mine, I also can't even see the road and my house can't be seen from outside my property.  We have deer and wild hogs as well as other varmints.  It's rough, but I live here so other folks won't have to.  
Anyway, 6 years ago the plan was to build a 3br Barndominium with a small shop/garage and in a couple of years build a house and turn the barndominium into a larger shop and single bedroom guest house (basically demolish part of the living space to increase shop space).  Well, kids were in high school getting ready for college and we decided no need to build a new house.  This was a good decision with the exception of there would be no increase in shop space.

I like to think I was able to sway my wife's thoughts, truth is she probably just lets me think that.  I started telling her that if I had a new shop, she could have a garage to park in.  Talked about how nice it must be to get into a car without having to step into the rain or cold.  Whether I changed her mind or she just quit fighting, we decided to build a separate shop building.

So here we are today.  The plan is a 30x40x12 metal weld up shop. I will be building, starting with 24' lengths of square tubing and cutting it to fit.  Metal frame with painted R-panel exterior.  Weld plates are already set in the concrete for welding columns to.  I will have one 10x10 roll up door, and two 3' walk doors.  No windows as I find I like wall space better and it makes it easier to heat and cool.  May put one single emergency light in for a power loss. I will have the building sprayed with closed cell foam insulation.  The shop will be for both wood and metal working and general whatever work.  I will have a room for the mill and lathe. I will have one section divided from the rest for welding, grinding, cutting and other dirty metal work.  The remainder of the area will be woodworking and general work.

As someone pointed out I already have electricity mostly ran to the shop.  I have dual lugs on my meter base, put a 200amp disconnect next to that at the house and ran 4/0 aluminum to the shop.  Do I need 200 amps? probably not.  But I have the capacity with a 325amp transformer so why not. Running a heater as well as machinery.....better to have it and not need it as they say.  Shop will have A/C and Heat, mostly likely a central heat and air unit.  I just want to be able to work when its hot or cold and be comfortable. If I can get it down to 80* inside when it's 100 outside I'm happy. Likewise 60* inside when it's in the 30's outside is all I'm aiming for.

I also am running water to the shop.  The location of the building in relation to my septic system made it very hard and very expensive to put a restroom out there.  However, a sink can use a leach field if no fecal matter is going down, so a large shop sink will be inside for those times I need water.

Nothing under the slab, so dust collection will have to be done with a stand alone unit.

Concrete was today, this weekend will be collecting steel as it might be a bit soon to be on the slab with more than just walking.  Next weekend starts the building up from the slab.  I'll keep a running log of the build going here, but just understand I'm doing this on my day off and weekends so progress will be slow.


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## Investigator (Jul 22, 2020)

In the 90's at least and lots of sun.  Trying to keep it cool, and of course hoping the water will help it grow some.


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## NCjeeper (Jul 22, 2020)

At least you have concrete. Still watching the weather here. Maybe pour Monday.


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## Investigator (Jul 22, 2020)

My relief and joy at having the concrete down really can't be overstated at this point.  I was ready to pour 3 weeks ago but rain hit just right and there was no way to get the concrete truck to the location off the driveway.  This has really held me up.  Now, it's almost all my show.  At this point the only thing I will have to wait for anyone else to do on the building is the spray foam.


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## NCjeeper (Jul 22, 2020)

The spray foam is cool to watch. I had it done in my previous shop.


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## Investigator (Aug 11, 2020)

Update....
Like I said, things move slow when doing the building your self.  Here is the metal frame with trusses up.  Still need to weld the purlins on the roof.  I expect and plan to finish the purlins and start putting metal roof and siding on this week.


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## graham-xrf (Sep 4, 2020)

It's so different from UK/Europe. US folk have to put in really fat copper, and run such large currents!

I think, if you can get two phases in there with about 230V across, it will have a big benefit. The currents are halved, and the losses quartered. OK - you still have the 115V or so to neutral in between them for lower power kit, and, I suppose, lighting.

 Heating + mill + compressor can add up.


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## Investigator (Sep 4, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> It's so different from UK/Europe. US folk have to put in really fat copper, and run such large currents!
> 
> I think, if you can get two phases in there with about 230V across, it will have a big benefit. The currents are halved, and the losses quartered. OK - you still have the 115V or so to neutral in between them for lower power kit, and, I suppose, lighting.
> 
> Heating + mill + compressor can add up.



Graham, the wires that you see in the photos are actually aluminum or should I say aluminium.  They have to be larger than copper to carry the same load.  For explanation, I have 4 wires going to the new shop as required by our National Electric Code.  I have two "hot" legs or wires each carrying 120VAC, one neutral wire, and one earth ground.  I have 240VAC available for circuits by using the two 'hot' legs, or I can use only one "hot" leg in a circuit and have 120v.   In total, I have the capacity to carry 240VAC at 200amps to the new shop.

Hope all that makes sense.


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## extropic (Sep 4, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> It's so different from UK/Europe. US folk have to put in really fat copper, and run such large currents!
> 
> I think, if you can get two phases in there with about 230V across, it will have a big benefit. The currents are halved, and the losses quartered. OK - you still have the 115V or so to neutral in between them for lower power kit, and, I suppose, lighting.
> 
> Heating + mill + compressor can add up.



LOL. I don't know Investigator's intent or circumstances, however it's my experience that we *want* as much power in our shops as is practicable.
It's not commonly a matter of "*have to* put in really fat copper". I don't doubt that the 200 amp service to the shop is 230V (two phases with about 230V across).

Edit: Investigator types faster than I peck.


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## graham-xrf (Sep 4, 2020)

Investigator said:


> Graham, the wires that you see in the photos are actually aluminum or should I say aluminium.  They have to be larger than copper to carry the same load.  For explanation, I have 4 wires going to the new shop as required by our National Electric Code.  I have two "hot" legs or wires each carrying 120VAC, one neutral wire, and one earth ground.  I have 240VAC available for circuits by using the two 'hot' legs, or I can use only one "hot" leg in a circuit and have 120v.   In total, I have the capacity to carry 240VAC at 200amps to the new shop.
> 
> Hope all that makes sense.


Make sense, it sure does! In a previous life, I have often had to juggle with the various (international) power arrangements, sometimes needing to go some distance across fields to for satellite kit using lots of power, via transformers.  The main energy is typically to heat a dish against icing up, or a radome,  in a place like Inuvik, or Longyearbyen.

@extropic is absolutely right. Your 200A is exactly the right choice. It is actually well more than enough! 46kW is about double what a normal household would need, even with all kit cooking.

It comes on two phases, with 230V across them. These are likely to be from a centre-tapped transformer with the neutral on the centre tap, which would be grounded upstream of safety leakage RCDs. I am sure your electrics guys will fit your place up with all the proper RCD safety leakage current protections.

I would not be a fan of a closed up room with no windows. Were you in a basement all your life?  Humans respond well, and are happier if they have at least one window, even if small. Also, put some natural light panels up in the roof, even if they are double layer with air in between. A window is not a place to paste a Starrett decimal conversions poster + lathe oiling chart over. Insulate the place totally - hot or cold, it will pay dividends.

My outhouse-to-be is an entirely more modest affair. I will get back to more stump removal soon. Ugh!


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## Investigator (Sep 4, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> ........
> I would not be a fan of a closed up room with no windows. Were you in a basement all your life?  Humans respond well, and are happier if they have at least one window, even if small. Also, put some natural light panels up in the roof, even if they are double layer with air in between. A window is not a place to paste a Starrett decimal conversions poster + lathe oiling chart over. Insulate the place totally - hot or cold, it will pay dividends.
> ......



 No, I wasn't raised in a basement, but.......  I have found in my experience that windows in my shops tend to drive layout within the shop.  Seems when I have windows I feel limited on what I can put in various locations, basically working around the windows.  In my case I have found that I need walls, not just exterior but interior as well.  I need fixed places to run electrical outlets as well as specific assigned places for various tools.  
Windows are also terrible for climate control if using a heat or cooling system.  In my area of Texas I would literally be forced to spend as much on windows as I do on the rest of the structure in order to get insulation value I need.  Having no windows, at least for me, provides a blank canvass so to speak for arranging and rearranging tools and storage. 

On a more personal level, my shop is surrounded by hundreds of acres of wild land, no structures in sight other than my home.  If I had windows, I would never get anything done in the shop, because I would be watching the wildlife.


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## extropic (Sep 4, 2020)

I like the conversation here. Good back-and-forth.

My shop is a 60' x 80' x 20" eaves, red iron frame with all steel skin. The only windows (2) are in the enclosed "office" area (about 600 sq ft), so no ambient light in the shop.
Although I don't desire windows at ground level, I do resent having to pay for lighting when the sun is bright. I wish the original owner had specified adequate skylights to provide a good percentage of daytime illumination. I imagine his priorities were keeping the cost as low as possible balanced against making the R value as high as practicable. Skylights don't seem to help achieve either goal.

Daylight is good so I may try to implement some Solartube type arrangements someday. It's not high on my project list right now, but it would be if I was building a new shop.


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## graham-xrf (Sep 4, 2020)

Ahh .. OK. I get it. I am also somewhat rural, though perhaps not so far from other farm folk as you.

By day, my place is a many species birds and fowl haven (we feed them).
By night, it's deer, and badger, and fox, hedgehog, whatever.
In the sky too. Red kites, buzzards, sparrowhawks. They are our entertainment, even if it gets a bit bloodthirsty sometimes. I allow myself to get distracted by them.

BTW - even isolated where you are, do you have to have inspections to be conforming to building codes, etc?
Come to that, is the business of putting up the building at all subject to permission?

I am on National Parks protected land. So long as my outbuilding is not in the frontage, is 2m inside of the boundary, and does not take up more than 50% of the land not already under a building (some urban places are on 1/8 acre), I don't need any more permissions.  I am surrounded by farm fields. There is another law that the outhouse must not be for human habitation, meaning fitted up with toilets and bathroom, cooking, etc, and people sleeping and living in it.

Dozing off at the bench with the face in the drawings near the beer and pizza-box does not count!


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## Investigator (Sep 4, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> BTW - even isolated where you are, do you have to have inspections to be conforming to building codes, etc?
> Come to that, is the business of putting up the building at all subject to permission?



In my case no.  It varies from state to state and county to county within the states.  Where I am, I am outside of any city limits so only county government to worry about.  The county is growing, but at this time the only permits or inspections are required are on other than residential properties.

Edited to add:  Even though there are no inspections required, I am trying to build it to code.  I currently work as a Fire Inspector/Fire Investigator for a municipal Fire Department in Dallas County, just one county west of my home.  I have seen what less than adequate work can cause.


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## Investigator (Sep 4, 2020)

Now, more pics on the build: 

My youngest son has helped me with this.  He was home from college and has since gone back again. We worked on my days off, usually Friday, Saturday and Sunday, with an occasional Thursday vacation day added.  My brother also helped.

Just to show the detail of the wall.  I used 3" square tubing for colums with 3x1.5" "C" channel between columns at slab, 4', 8', and the eave at 12'.  Cutting each piece to fit was more time consuming than just welding them on the outside like many buildings.  However, I wanted it this way so siding attaches directly to one side, and 3/4" plywood will attach directly to the inside.






We started the roof purlins, using the same 3x1.5" C channel.  This went much faster because we were able to set a 20' stick and weld on each truss.  And of course my wife stepped out to take a photo and caught me in almost the only time in the entire build where I'm welding in short sleeves. I know better, and I don't usually do that.  Youngest son is below holding the extension cord for my welder.





Almost done with the frame









Then the metal siding:









and finally with a roof:





That is basically where it stands now.  I'm waiting for my spray foam, then I will put in the roll up door and start the inside.


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## Investigator (Sep 4, 2020)

I assume someone here will ask about the welder in the photo.  I assume that because folks here are 'tool guys', and at least one person who has seen the photo in real life has already asked me about it.  In my shop I have an older Miller AC/DC stick and TIG welder.  It's big and heavy and welds really nice.  I had a project some time back that I needed to do some welding well away from the plug for the big welder, so I bought a small inverter welder that runs on 120V.  I didn't expect much from it, but I was very surprised by the quality of the welds.  Before my current career with the Fire Department, I worked as a weldor for a while.  I think it is fair to say I have been around welding machines a bit.  Having said all that I will say I am impressed with the "new fangled" inverter welders.  The one I have is from Northern Tools and is a Klutch brand, but I have seen similar from Forney and others including Harbor Freight.

Quality welders used to be big and heavy, because the transformers in them were big and heavy.  The heavier of a transformer in the welder, the smoother the welder ran.  My father has his fathers old welder, it's on wheels because it is so heavy.  For years I thought it was a DC machine because of how smooth it welded.  Turns out it's just an AC machine with a huge transformer.  The smaller inverter welders use electronic magic to transform the voltage and amperage for welding.  The one in the picture I have is about the size of a loaf of bread, and will weld up to 80amps.  That's not a lot in some cases, but with 14ga. tubing for the frame of the shop it is plenty adequate.  I used 6013 rods 1/8' diameter I believe.  I can carry the welder on my shoulder with the strap and only have to worry about pulling the extension cord for power.


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## matthewsx (Sep 5, 2020)

Man that's a good looking shop, and up in practically no time at all for a working man.   

JOhn


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## graham-xrf (Sep 5, 2020)

A thing I am sometimes a bit prone to is "machine shop envy".
This man has got it going in me before even there are any machines!  
Awesome!


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## Papa Charlie (Sep 5, 2020)

Nice work. It is funny that you said that the 30x40 seemed small. It really isn't but I have the same problem when I look at the area. When we buy our property and develop it for our retirement home, I want a shop large enough to pull an RV in for storage and work, area for machine shop, wood work and of course my gunsmithing and reloading. The latter I want sealed and with clean air for that type of work. I am torn between windows for light and of course the view, but you have a good point about shop layout and environment control.

Are you going to add a rain gutter. One thing I have always hated was coming out a door and having the rain from the roof dump on me. But then I have lived on or near the wet Northwestern Coast for a good portion of my life. You probably don't have the same concerns.

I don't mean to be rude, but would love to hear what the different items (earth work, power run, concrete, building, foam, etc) run on your project. I have been collecting data on this from many others doing the same type of work to establish a forecast for my future project.

I had a Lincoln 140 Amp, 120VAC MIG welder with gas shield. It welded extremely well. With today's electronics the unit I had 20 years ago is half the physical size of that Lincoln.

I sold that welder when we moved. Way too much stuff and somethings had to go as we didn't know where we would end up. Looking to replace it and now they have units that can do MIG, TIG and Stick all in one small 120VAC package. Amazing. I always had thought before I purchased that Lincoln that you needed the big welders to do good work and never thought you could do TIG well with a 120VAC unit.

My how things have changed.


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## ahazi (Sep 5, 2020)

Very nice and clean build. I envy your ability to work with no building inspections. I am also 100% with you on building per code or better. I am in Los Angeles and I can easily count over 100 city related interactions with plan checkers, soil inspectors, grading inspectors, building inspectors, deputy inspectors, fire departments etc during my shop/office construction.

How thick is your insulation going to be (ceiling and walls)? What is the planned R value? In your wether you almost cannot have too much. Your biggest challenge might be keeping the concrete floor at reasonable temperature as it tends to stay at the average surrounding soil temperature.

Did you consider few widows high up where it will not interfere with the wall usage just to get some sun light? I guess you can always add it later.



Investigator said:


> ...so I bought a small inverter welder that runs on 120V.  I didn't expect much from it, but I was very surprised by the quality of the welds.  Before my current career with the Fire Department, I worked as a weldor for a while.  I think it is fair to say I have been around welding machines a bit.  Having said all that I will say I am impressed with the "new fangled" inverter welders.  The one I have is from Northern Tools and is a Klutch brand...



I bought exactly the same welder for repair jobs that carrying the heavier MIG with a C25 tank or even a 110 volt MIG with flux core wire are too bulky. Your success encourages me to practice some more with it.



Investigator said:


> ...and will weld up to 80amps.  That's not a lot in some cases, but with 14ga. tubing for the frame of the shop it is plenty adequate.  I used 6013 rods 1/8' diameter I believe...



What is the maximum thickness material that you used this welder for?


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## Investigator (Sep 5, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> _Nice work. It is funny that you said that the 30x40 seemed small. It really isn't but I have the same problem when I look at the area. When we buy our property and develop it for our retirement home, I want a shop large enough to pull an RV in for storage and work, area for machine shop, wood work and of course my gunsmithing and reloading. The latter I want sealed and with clean air for that type of work. I am torn between windows for light and of course the view, but you have a good point about shop layout and environment control_.



I'll show pics when I get it all done, but right now my plan is to have pretty much what you describe.  I'm planning on a room sealed with a door for the machine shop, the mill and lathe specifically and associated tooling.  Then another sealed room with a desk, and space for my fiber laser, basically a clean room for books and stuff. 



Papa Charlie said:


> _
> Are you going to add a rain gutter. One thing I have always hated was coming out a door and having the rain from the roof dump on me. But then I have lived on or near the wet Northwestern Coast for a good portion of my life. You probably don't have the same concerns.
> 
> I don't mean to be rude, but would love to hear what the different items (earth work, power run, concrete, building, foam, etc) run on your project. I have been collecting data on this from many others doing the same type of work to establish a forecast for my future project._



Not planning on gutters at this time.  Rain here is infrequent enough that it's not a constant problem.

Not rude at all, but my answers may not be typical.  I said earlier in the thread that I was putting lots of sweat equity in this.  The fact is I'm doing 90% of the labor for the entire project. My total budget for this, including the dirt work, concrete, steel, electrical and insulation, as well as framing and finish out inside is a total of $20,000.  

My brother has a skid loader which I used to do the dirt work.  My property is large enough and has a few terraces from when it was farmed that we didn't bring in much dirt, using native soil to build up the pad.  I know lots of folks are going to say that is a bad idea, but the fact it that is what is usually done around here in my part of Texas.  We compacted lifts of about 4 inches at a time.  I did bring in cushion sand for the final grade under the slab. I then set all the forms for the foundation myself.  I paid for the concrete and paid a crew to pour and finish.  My out of pocket cost for everything to the top of the concrete (dirt work included) came out to $4.50/square foot of slab (1200sqft).

I have about $6000 in steel, which includes all the framing and siding and roof, as well as trim and screws.  That is only material cost.

My youngest son is a student at Texas Tech studying Mechanical Engineering. He works for food, an apartment and tuition.  He is the most expensive part of the project lol, but is not paid out of the budget.  Actually he really enjoys the work. He is a rare individual that is proud of being able to work and know how to do various things.  On a bit of a side note, I have had the opportunity to work with many engineers when I worked at Texas Instruments years ago.  I can say that some, maybe even many of the ones I worked with couldn't turn a screw.  My son is not one of those.



ahazi said:


> .....................
> _How thick is your insulation going to be (ceiling and walls)? What is the planned R value? In your wether you almost cannot have too much. Your biggest challenge might be keeping the concrete floor at reasonable temperature as it tends to stay at the average surrounding soil temperature._



Insulation will be spray foam, closed cell and will be 1" all around walls and roof.  I have gone back and forth over how much I 'need' and how much I want to pay for.  It seems in my research that the best price break was at a basic 1".  I have been told by several people who have the insulation, as well as those who do the insulation that there are diminishing returns after about 1" of closed cell and 4" of open cell.  I am hoping I have made a wise choice, and of course I had to stay within budget.



ahazi said:


> _Did you consider few widows high up where it will not interfere with the wall usage just to get some sun light? I guess you can always add it later._



I never really seriously considered windows at all, mostly from an insulation point of view.



ahazi said:


> _
> I bought exactly the same welder for repair jobs that carrying the heavier MIG with a C25 tank or even a 110 volt MIG with flux core wire are too bulky. Your success encourages me to practice some more with it.
> 
> What is the maximum thickness material that you used this welder for?_



I have welded 5/16, but in my opinion that was pushing it.  If I was planning to weld 1/4 or larger I would try very hard to use my larger machine, or at the least make several passes.


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## mikey (Sep 5, 2020)

Awesome build, Scott! You got skills, man!

I really like that your son is involved and your pride in him is clear - really nice to see.


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## graham-xrf (Sep 5, 2020)

There's a country song, maybe with Dolly, or Willy, or Kenny or somebody which says what the kid finds at the family - is free. More philistine statisticians (UK Govt) tried to evaluate the cost of a kid from birth to working independently, went between five and six figures, and still probably didn't get the point. My son also makes me proud.

Using an inverter type welder compensates for the length of the cable up to it. The boost regulator will try to take more current as the input voltage drops, to maintain what is happening at the output. Within limits! It can eventually seriously overload a supply if taken too far. I am totally sold on inverter electronics. So much less weight. So much better performance.
I have to be steered away from the welder advertisements until the "other" household fix-ups are done!


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## Papa Charlie (Sep 5, 2020)

It is right that you are proud of your son. No doubt a product of  good  common sense  up bringing. My compliments.  I work for Boeing and interact with a lot of  engineers of all types. A lot of book knowledge and very little hands on  experience.  I spend a lot of time educating those that are willing to learn the difference between  theoretical and reality.
Thanks very much for sharing the details of your  build.
We are planning on  buying  property in the  same county I grew up in on the coast of Oregon.  I have friends  I grew up with that have offered a lot of help. Big difference between city and country folk. The wife is a city  girl with country mentality.  She has a hard time understanding country mentality.  I am looking forward to escaping the madness of the city.


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## graham-xrf (Sep 6, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> It is right that you are proud of your son. No doubt a product of  good  common sense  up bringing. My compliments.  I work for Boeing and interact with a lot of  engineers of all types. A lot of book knowledge and very little hands on  experience.  I spend a lot of time educating those that are willing to learn the difference between  theoretical and reality.
> Thanks very much for sharing the details of your  build.
> We are planning on  buying  property in the  same county I grew up in on the coast of Oregon.  I have friends  I grew up with that have offered a lot of help. Big difference between city and country folk. The wife is a city  girl with country mentality.  She has a hard time understanding country mentality.  I am looking forward to escaping the madness of the city.


Even without the benefits of being able to get up a decent shop outbuilding, (much more difficult if you're a city dweller), I put living in the country way over city life, any day!


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## Investigator (Sep 18, 2020)

I'm posting an update purely to vent my frustration.
/deep breath/

I am sitting with no progress since my last update.  I'm waiting on my spray foam guy.  He came out with his rig and tried to get started, only to find he had some sort of blockage or issue with the unit.  He left with the unit after trying to get it working for over 7 hours at my place, taking it straight to the repair shop.

So, all work is on hold.  Unfortunately, I cant even buy materials and store in the new building because he needs the free floor space when he actually does spray.  And the cost of lumber is going up daily it seems.  I'm expecting to do much less interior finish as far as walls, and still be over budget.


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## matthewsx (Sep 18, 2020)

Bummer, has steel gone up as well? If you're gonna pay more why not put steel everywhere you don't need to hang  stuff?

John


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## Janderso (Sep 18, 2020)

Nice shop man.
I am so jealous.
Texas is a fine place.


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## extropic (Sep 18, 2020)

The last pictures were on 9/04. Two weeks dead in the water. The best laid plans . . .
Sorry to hear about that.


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## Papa Charlie (Sep 19, 2020)

Look at this as a possible blessing, you could spend the time trying to source the materials you need and reduce your cost. Even if it means you take a drive. 

I assume you have spoke with the insulating contractor, has he given you any updates?

All will work out, try to see if you can take advantage of the delay, maybe install the conduit, or hang lights, source better prices. You may even be able to purchase the materials and then have them hold it for future delivery, thereby locking in price.

Good luck. I know it is frustrating and I have very little patience. Much easy to tell someone else to be calm than to do it myself.


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## Stonebriar (Sep 19, 2020)

I know exactly how you feel.  I got hit by the Trump tariffs when I built mine.  From my first bid to completion it cost me almost 10K.  I was not happy.


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## Investigator (Sep 19, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Bummer, has steel gone up as well? If you're gonna pay more why not put steel everywhere you don't need to hang  stuff?
> 
> John





Papa Charlie said:


> Look at this as a possible blessing, you could spend the time trying to source the materials you need and reduce your cost. Even if it means you take a drive.
> 
> I assume you have spoke with the insulating contractor, has he given you any updates?



I'm not well versed in framing with steel studs.  The interior walls kinda need to be wood framed, mainly because I do need to be able to hang cabinets and 'stuff'.  I don't see a way around it.

I did get an update from my insulation guy today.  And in full disclosure, he works for the same Fire Department I do, and he beat the bid of several other spray foam installers by over $500.  Based on that I'm more than willing to give him much more leeway than I would another contractor.  One of the pumps for the A or B chemical went out, parts are on the way and he expects to be back up by next week.  Of course its not as fast as I want, but all things considered it's ok.

I am looking at 'alternate' suppliers such as facebook and craigslist for plywood and lumber.  On that note I would like opinions good and bad on using 5/8" T1-11 as wall coverings, or 3/4" OSB.  I can find both on face book for prices that make them worth going after. Most listings call them 'reject' and I'm not sure if that is a problem for a shop or not.

Thoughts?


----------



## matthewsx (Sep 19, 2020)

I wouldn't use T1-11 for anything but that's just me probably, 3/4" osb would work though you will want to paint both sides.

I wasn't thinking so much as framing but interior walls for the steel. White steel panels really brighten things up, lots of folks use wood to about 6 or 8 feet then metal from there. From what I understand though steel framing studs are easy to work with and being on the fire department I'm sure you can see the advantage for a shop.

Either way glad to hear your buddy is getting his machine fixed up....

JOhn


----------



## Investigator (Sep 19, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> I wouldn't use T1-11 for anything but that's just me probably, 3/4" osb would work though you will want to paint both sides.
> 
> I wasn't thinking so much as framing but interior walls for the steel. White steel panels really brighten things up, lots of folks use wood to about 6 or 8 feet then metal from there. From what I understand though steel framing studs are easy to work with and being on the fire department I'm sure you can see the advantage for a shop.
> 
> ...



Ah, I understand what you meant now, metal in place of wood sort of like sheet rock.

Just a quick look it seems wood and metal studs are very close in price now. But I have to factor in my knowledge and tooling which leans heavily toward wood.

John, this is not directed at you, but this is something I hear often from people, and especially when I talk about building a shop for both woodworking and metal working.  I will say this about metal being a safety improvement over wood, or the flammability of wood framing in regards to shop fires.  And I say this from the standpoint of having been a Fire Investigator for over 10 years, and a firefighter for an additional 17.  Wood framing and wood sheeting are not nearly the fire danger many think it is.  yes it will burn, but it is very hard to start burning.  The vast majority, and I mean like 90%+ of shop fires the major contributing factor is housekeeping.  It's not the wood framing and wall coverings that cause problems, it's the piles of trash and paper and loose materials on the floor.  Yes the framing will burn once a fire has started, but starting a fire in a 2x4 wall with plywood covering is very hard to do without some type of 'kindling' such as shop rags or paper or piles of sawdust to ignite first.  The vast majority of shop fires could be prevented entirely if good housekeeping were practiced, and that includes fires in all metal shops and those with 'fireproofing' construction and paints and.....you get the idea.


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## Stonebriar (Sep 20, 2020)

I lined my walls with 3/4" plywood (much easier to mount stuff to the wall) and spaced them off the floor with a 3/4" block. There is a perling around the bottom. This keeps any sparks, hot chips away from the siding.


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## NCjeeper (Sep 20, 2020)

I am lining my building with steel panels. At the time I bought them they were 26 bucks each. Heck a sheet of plywood costs that now. Crazy.


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## matthewsx (Sep 20, 2020)

Investigator said:


> Ah, I understand what you meant now, metal in place of wood sort of like sheet rock.
> 
> Just a quick look it seems wood and metal studs are very close in price now. But I have to factor in my knowledge and tooling which leans heavily toward wood.
> 
> John, this is not directed at you, but this is something I hear often from people, and especially when I talk about building a shop for both woodworking and metal working.  I will say this about metal being a safety improvement over wood, or the flammability of wood framing in regards to shop fires.  And I say this from the standpoint of having been a Fire Investigator for over 10 years, and a firefighter for an additional 17.  Wood framing and wood sheeting are not nearly the fire danger many think it is.  yes it will burn, but it is very hard to start burning.  The vast majority, and I mean like 90%+ of shop fires the major contributing factor is housekeeping.  It's not the wood framing and wall coverings that cause problems, it's the piles of trash and paper and loose materials on the floor.  Yes the framing will burn once a fire has started, but starting a fire in a 2x4 wall with plywood covering is very hard to do without some type of 'kindling' such as shop rags or paper or piles of sawdust to ignite first.  The vast majority of shop fires could be prevented entirely if good housekeeping were practiced, and that includes fires in all metal shops and those with 'fireproofing' construction and paints and.....you get the idea.



Thanks for sharing your experience, but more importantly your commitment as a firefighter

Your point on housekeeping is well taken, I have a safety can at my other shop and should get one for here. I've also heard that insurance companies sometimes give a discount for metal buildings over wood and that can make a difference in the long run.

Your building looks great and the project is moving along at an awesome speed from my experience. Those of us who have attached garages/shops wish we had the space, and safety a building like yours provides.

Take good care,

John


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## Larry$ (Sep 20, 2020)

Green with envy!
I sold my business two years ago, where I had access to lots of woodworking equipment and a small corner for my metal work. I still own the building but it is quite a distance from my house. I'm retired and just want to walk out the door and into may playpen/shop. I'm in the city where there are lots of code issues. The worst being how tall the out building can be. I've been looking into having a steel building built. I was shocked at the first prices I got. By code the largest building I can have is 924 sq. ft. It will be for both wood & metal. I don't have a problem with dust @ my current shop. I keep my lathe & mill covered when not in use. 

I will have some windows @ eve level & one in the door. Double pane with a 3rd pane as a bad weather control. I'm in Nebraska so milder climate than some other places. Only a couple of weeks near 0*F and rarely above 100*F. 

I've considered on how much power to run. It will have to be a sub panel from the house. I'll be running a rotary phase converter. All my home shop tools have small motors, nothing over 5hp.


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## Investigator (Oct 5, 2020)

*UGH!*

Update 10/05  More deep breaths.......

Insulation guy came again. Had problems again. Got some sprayed but having trouble with crystals in the lines. Apparently when the lines were taken apart to fix the blockage, they absorbed some moisture which formed crystals. He's getting new lines. Looking like it will be another week at minimum. Looks like I'm going to be down at least a month from the time I finished framing and sheeting until I can start on the inside.

Happy thoughts........

Some of the guys I work with have asked me in the past why I don't just pay someone to come build a building turn key for me.  This is why.  

But, I did use the time as suggested to shop some surplus materials sources.  I was able to get 3/4" Advantech OSB tounge and groove sub-flooring for $20/sheet.  I got enough to do all the exterior walls as well as the divider walls inside and decking for storage.  But now I'm running into the issue that I have no place to store materials.  I would love to buy all the conduit and electrical boxes/switches/outlets and have them ready to go the minute after the insulation is done,  but I have no place for them.

And all has not been lost.  With the 'free' time I have since I'm not working on my new shop, I"ve been able to do some projects for the wife like a new front door, new trim under the porch, flower beds and a few minor touch up projects.

I'm gonna be so happy when this is done for so many reasons.


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## Papa Charlie (Oct 5, 2020)

Well got my fingers crossed for you.  Always good to  keep the wife happy. So time we'll spent while  concentrating on  your project  which, when you are  able to  work on  it you are not paying attention to  her. Of course  she is  understanding and encourages you,  but you never know  about women.  
Good thing is that you found  some  bargains. As for the conduit and boxes. You could  always  cover it  outside and I am sure it would be fine.


----------



## horty (Oct 5, 2020)

Hi Investigator, sure is different building a shop in Texas than in ND, we would never be able to have a low pitched roof like yours, every winter
here somebody's roof caves in from the weight of the snow, I have a 6/12 roof pitch and it still collects some snow.

Nice looking shop, one thing that I'm glad I did before cement was poured was put some chain hooks in the floor, they are about 6 ft apart and one in the middle, made them so a PVC cap covers the hole and are barely seen. 

Never to late to put them in if needed, after a neighbor seen mine he hired a concrete company to cut 8" hole in his floor, dug down about 3 ft, put in a piece of PVC pipe, wedged some pieces of metal scrap down in the hole, and pounded some rebar in at an angle,  put a hook on a chain, dropped it to the bottom of the hole and filled with concrete. 

Anyway, you'll have a nice place to work when its done, and it looks nice, just need a few shrubs around the sides and front to really dress it up..

Good Work..

Tim


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## Investigator (Oct 5, 2020)

What we get and call s


horty said:


> Hi Investigator, sure is different building a shop in Texas than in ND, we would never be able to have a low pitched roof like yours, every winter
> here somebody's roof caves in from the weight of the snow, I have a 6/12 roof pitch and it still collects some snow.
> 
> Nice looking shop, one thing that I'm glad I did before cement was poured was put some chain hooks in the floor, they are about 6 ft apart and one in the middle, made them so a PVC cap covers the hole and are barely seen.
> ...




What we get and call snow would likely be called frost or dusting in ND.  I'm lost on the floor hooks, what is the purpose?


----------



## horty (Oct 6, 2020)

Investigator said:


> What we get and call s
> 
> 
> 
> What we get and call snow would likely be called frost or dusting in ND.  I'm lost on the floor hooks, what is the purpose?


Sorry, sometimes I just babble and don't really explain things..

If you need to like straighten a trailer axle or anything you would need to fasten down and put up pressure, bent farm equipment, or large shafts that wont fit in a hydraulic press, pulling rams out of cylinders if you have a hoist, ect.

Tim


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## Investigator (Oct 18, 2020)

Update:
Found out that on the 6th, after being at my place on the 5th, my insulation guy got tested for Covid, tested positive, and at some point ended up in the hospital.  We work for the same department and I found out he is better. 

Things will get done when they get done.


----------



## Stonebriar (Oct 18, 2020)

Thank goodness you didn't catch it. Nasty stuff.


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## extropic (Dec 2, 2020)

Any progress on the new shop?
How's it going with your insulation guy?


----------



## Investigator (Dec 2, 2020)

extropic said:


> Any progress on the new shop?
> How's it going with your insulation guy?



None yet.  He caught the COVID, which lead to pneumonia. He was in hospital a while.  He's not back to work yet. Last I heard he could walk about 100 yards and had to sit and rest and catch his breath.


----------



## Larry$ (Dec 2, 2020)

One of my friends just had an uncle die while he was on a ventilator. Diabetic with kidney problems sealed the deal.


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## Investigator (Dec 29, 2020)

Well, time for a happy update.  Insulation is done!

My insulation guy is also a Firefighter with my department.  We talked, and although he is better, he is not well. He is not back to work yet, in fact he is doing physical therapy to try to get to where he can work. Apparently the COVID had some really bad effects on him, joints hurting, fatigue etc.  We made arrangements for him to supervise, while I ran the sprayer.  Today was the day.

By lunch we got started, air temps were in the right range.  Basically he sat in a chair and pointed, and gave instructions and advice.  It took a while but myself and my youngest son (21 and home from college) got it sprayed.  Just in time too, looks like the weather tomorrow takes a nasty turn and will be wet and cold all weekend.

I am sore, and tired, and very happy I'm back in the shop building process.  Next up will be interior walls, after clean up of course.


----------



## extropic (Dec 30, 2020)

That's great news, about the insulation. I (we?) hope your colleague achieves a 100% recovery soon.


----------



## Papa Charlie (Dec 30, 2020)

Glad to hear that you finally got the insulation in. You are a good man waiting, I know it wasn't his fault, but most, and I am probably in the same category, would have sought out a new contractor. But there is something special about front line responders, like men on the battlefield. 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.


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## Investigator (Dec 30, 2020)

Everyone likes pics, so here you go:




That's my son spraying.  At this point we were about 1/2 done, maybe a bit more.  We finished after dark last night, so no completed pics yet.  

I will say now, and try to say each time I show the pics on the build thread, that I hope no one judges whether or not to do spray foam based on the appearance of this job. It admittedly doesn't look like a pro job,  because it wasn't done by a pro.  Remember this was done by me and my son because the guy that was to do it caught the virus and couldn't physically do it.  It looks ok to me, my shop is going to be a working hobby shop not a showroom.  I just want everyone to understand that a pro would make it look more uniform and would have a generally better 'look' to the finished product.


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 30, 2020)

@Investigator Looks good to me. I assume you will probably put up some plywood on the walls to hang thing from. I bet it will help keep it warm inside and reduce the dampness.


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## Janderso (Dec 30, 2020)

I hope your Son does OK.
I know nothing about foam insulation. It isn't used in our area.
What is the R factor of this installation? Will you leave it or cover it? Dead air space is in the foam right? No need to cover.?


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## Stonebriar (Dec 30, 2020)

I spray painted mine with white ceiling paint.  If you dont do something it turns very orange.


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## Stonebriar (Dec 30, 2020)

x


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## Investigator (Dec 30, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> @Investigator Looks good to me. I assume you will probably put up some plywood on the walls to hang thing from. I bet it will help keep it warm inside and reduce the dampness.





Janderso said:


> I hope your Son does OK.
> I know nothing about foam insulation. It isn't used in our area.
> What is the R factor of this installation? Will you leave it or cover it? Dead air space is in the foam right? No need to cover.?



Son is fine, it was the coworker friend who does the spray insulation that had the virus.  Son helped me spray.

Yes, I already have 3/4 Advantech OSB to go all around the walls. 

As far as the R value, I think 1" of foam is supposedly a R-7, but that really isn't an applicable rating for spray foam.  Comparing spray foam and batt style insulation via R value is very much like comparing a sports car and a tractor on horsepower.  A 60 horsepower tractor will pull plows and implements that a 250 horsepower car wouldn't even move.

The advantage to spray foam, especially in this case the closed-cell foam (which is hard when it cures) is that there is no air penetration at all.  Basically I have sprayed my shop with the equivalent of the same insulation in a Yeti cooler.


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## Investigator (Dec 30, 2020)

Stonebriar said:


> View attachment 349314
> 
> 
> I spray painted mine with white ceiling paint.  If you dont do something it turns very orange.



One wall that was sprayed a month or more ago is already orange.  I'll get a pic in a couple of days to show the difference.  

I really like that paint job!  Just any paint? Latex? Oil?


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 31, 2020)

According to the internet:

"Open-cell spray foam has an R-value of *3.7 per inch*, while closed-cell spray foam delivers an R-value of up to *6.5 per inch*. "









						A Comparison Between Spray Foam and Fiberglass Insulation - A & L Foam
					

To this day, many businesses are in the dark about which type of insulation they should use for their office. Among the most common insulation methods on the market are spray foam and fiberglass insulation. And each type has its own characteristics and advantages. To find out which method of...




					www.aandlfoam.com


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## Janderso (Dec 31, 2020)

Investigator said:


> One wall that was sprayed a month or more ago is already orange.  I'll get a pic in a couple of days to show the difference.
> 
> I really like that paint job!  Just any paint? Latex? Oil?


I bet there was a night and day difference between before and after the foam was installed. Outside and inside noise would be deadened and of course the insulation factor of temperature stabilization.
I remember when I insulated my attic in my little house in lake Tahoe, I immediately discovered a difference in it's ability to hold in the heat from the wood stove. That was in 1979. I paid $27,000 for that house. Sold it for $79,000 3 years later, with upgrades. Seems like a long time ago.


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## Stonebriar (Dec 31, 2020)

Investigator said:


> One wall that was sprayed a month or more ago is already orange.  I'll get a pic in a couple of days to show the difference.
> 
> I really like that paint job!  Just any paint? Latex? Oil?



It is just ceiling white house paint. Cheap in the 5 gallon buckets.


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## Liljoebrshooter (Dec 31, 2020)

Those R values sound about right.   I had our house spray foamed with open cell about 10 years ago.   I about had a heart attack when the contractor gave me the price of it.   It was the best investment we made doing our huge remodel. 
Good luck with the new shop.

Joe


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## Investigator (Jan 12, 2021)

update:
This past weekend got a couple things done.  Electricity is hooked up yo the shop. I have a 200 amp panel, and currently have a double gang outlet and a double LED floodlight.



All four walls now have 3/4" T&G Advantec OSB sub flooring,  all the way to the corners.  The last secition of each wall, less than 48" have to be trimmed in with the OSB.





I'm also strongly considering spraying about 4" of open cell spray foam on the 4' section of walls above the OSB as well as the underside of the roof.  With the closed cell and air space behind the OSB and the extra foam above, I should be in real good shape insulation wise.

Will be heading to Lubbock with son this weekend to get some furniture out of storage and get him moved back in his apartment for school, so will be working again next week I guess.


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## Larry$ (Jan 12, 2021)

Investigator said:


> Son is fine, it was the coworker friend who does the spray insulation that had the virus.  Son helped me spray.
> 
> Yes, I already have 3/4 Advantech OSB to go all around the walls.
> 
> ...


Do you have any codes you have to meet? Here they won't permit exposed foam. Great stuff for sealing up a building.


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## Papa Charlie (Jan 13, 2021)

Looking great. Always nice to see a project coming together.

Before you get too far on the electrical and once you get the rest of the OSB up, if it were me, I would spray the entire interior with some primer and white paint. Great time to do it before you start putting everything in and having to mask lighting and outlets.


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## Investigator (Jan 13, 2021)

Larry$ said:


> Do you have any codes you have to meet? Here they won't permit exposed foam. Great stuff for sealing up a building.



No I don't, I'm out in the unincorporated area of our county.  Having said that, I am not aware of any codes in this area the prohibit exposed foam. In fact, I am aware of several places that have the foam on the underside of the roof, exposed and painted black to hide it.


----------



## Investigator (Jan 13, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> Looking great. Always nice to see a project coming together.
> 
> Before you get too far on the electrical and once you get the rest of the OSB up, if it were me, I would spray the entire interior with some primer and white paint. Great time to do it before you start putting everything in and having to mask lighting and outlets.



You know I have to say I go back and forth on this. I like the idea of lots of light and a bright area, but I also like the 'warmer' look of wood on the walls. I was planning on just painting the area above the OSB and ceiling white.  But, every time someone mentions painting I start considering and reconsidering over and over.

On that note, if anyone has pics of their shop with all white walls or with white above and wood walls, I would love to see them.  Then I could anguish over my decisions longer.


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## Stonebriar (Jan 13, 2021)

Here you go.


----------



## Investigator (Jan 13, 2021)

Stonebriar said:


> Here you go.



Very nice, looks almost like a laboratory.  Is that a personal or business shop?


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## Stonebriar (Jan 13, 2021)

My last shop I didn't paint and left it all wood, but you could never get enough light and it always seemed dark.

Personal.  Its my retirement play shop. The first 40x40 is machining, grinding, welding, cnc plasma. I keep the center front isle open for working on large projects(gates), vehicle, trailers and such.  My son is a contractor and I fix some of his broken down stuff. The back 40x20 is metal storage, tractor and everything yard maintenance.


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## ArmyDoc (Jan 13, 2021)

Stonebriar said:


> Here you go.


If you don't mind, what are the dimensions of your shop, and how tall are your walls?  Thanks.


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## Stonebriar (Jan 13, 2021)

ArmyDoc said:


> If you don't mind, what are the dimensions of your shop, and how tall are your walls?  Thanks.


40x60x12


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## Cadillac STS (Jan 13, 2021)

Could consider white masonite for the walls.  It is already bright white and will stay that way.


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## Investigator (Jan 27, 2021)

Well, got some stuff done inside.  Framing is done for my 3 'rooms'.  The framed section is 16x30, divided into 2 areas 16x9 and one larger area 16x10 in the center.  I know the numbers don't add up exactly, but the shop is 30' deep at the concrete, inside the framing and such you loose a few inches.  The center section (16x10) is actually a room 12x10 and a 4' inset area,



That stack of OSB in the floor now needs to be lifted above the rooms to be decking/flooring for the storage above. It's also where the AC/heat unit will be.


----------



## Papa Charlie (Jan 28, 2021)

Your shop is coming along nicely. I see you got the mill in. Must be good to see your dream coming together.


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## FOMOGO (Jan 28, 2021)

The shop is looking great. What is the deal with the pink studs? Cheers, Mike


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## Papa Charlie (Jan 28, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> The shop is looking great. What is the deal with the pink studs? Cheers, Mike



I wasn't going to comment on them, but now that you brought it up. Seems a little odd, especially in Texas.


----------



## Investigator (Jan 28, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> Your shop is coming along nicely. I see you got the mill in. Must be good to see your dream coming together.





FOMOGO said:


> The shop is looking great. What is the deal with the pink studs? Cheers, Mike



The mill has been there since i bought it, it's the only place I had to put it.  Once I get in the new shop it's gonna get a tear down and refurb. It needs new spindle bearings and a good cleaning. More than likely that will turn into a repaint as well. I don't have the knowledge, equipment or funds to scrape it, so here's to hoping the Indian can make use of the arrow.

The studs look fabulous!  Not sure why, but that's the way Lowes has them.  The wood on this has cost me over 3 times what I budgeted for it. Between a few storms, lots of building going on and I guess the pandemic.


----------



## rwm (Jan 28, 2021)

I think that pink is termite treatment? No?
Robert


----------



## Investigator (Jan 28, 2021)

rwm said:


> I think that pink is termite treatment? No?
> Robert



I doubt it's for termites. maybe for mold for storage?


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## Janderso (Jan 28, 2021)

Investigator said:


> That stack of OSB


Isn't it amazing how expensive building materials are right now??
I don't imagine prices will come down.
Wood chips and glue have never been this valuable.

Nice shop man!!!


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## Papa Charlie (Jan 28, 2021)

I had forgotten the overall size of you shop but looked back and I think you said 30x40. I also found this comment on Post #28,

"I'm planning on a room sealed with a door for the machine shop, the mill and lathe specifically and associated tooling.  Then another sealed room with a desk, and space for my fiber laser, basically a clean room for books and stuff."

I assume that we are looking at those three rooms you mention.


----------



## Investigator (Jan 28, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> I had forgotten the overall size of you shop but looked back and I think you said 30x40. I also found this comment on Post #28,
> 
> "I'm planning on a room sealed with a door for the machine shop, the mill and lathe specifically and associated tooling.  Then another sealed room with a desk, and space for my fiber laser, basically a clean room for books and stuff."
> 
> I assume that we are looking at those three rooms you mention.



Yes sir.  As you look at the photo, the right side which is open will be welders, cutting torch, grinders, sand blaster and other 'dirty' work.  The far right with a doorway will be "office", desk, laser, future 3D printer and maybe electronics assembly and repair.  The center will be mill and lathe and associated tooling.  That will leave the larger part of the shop about 30x24 for woodworking and general stuff.


----------



## Papa Charlie (Jan 28, 2021)

What was the thought behind the center compartment entrance wall being recessed?


----------



## Investigator (Jan 28, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> What was the thought behind the center compartment entrance wall being recessed?



Honestly 2 main reasons; 1- because I just didn't' think I needed that big of a room for just a mill and lathe, and 2- because I thought it kind of looked cool. lol
The wall with the doorway can be moved if I need to enlarge the room. The recessed area I thought would be good for things like a screw cabinet or something similar for bulk storage of small items that I didn't necessarily need in the machine area, more for in the general area.  After I got the wall up I was sitting looking and admiring my work and it occurred to me that I may wall in one side of the recess for my compressor. That would make it pretty much central in the shop. Still thinking what to do what that area.


----------



## Papa Charlie (Jan 28, 2021)

Was just curious. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I enjoy learning different ways of setting shops up. Good for me to think about these things when I get to building mine. As much as I would like to think that all this info will enable me to make the shop perfect, knowing me, I will wish I had done something different when it is all done. Don't really know until you use the space.


----------



## NCjeeper (Jan 28, 2021)

Investigator said:


> The wood on this has cost me over 3 times what I budgeted for it. Between a few storms, lots of building going on and I guess the pandemic.


Understand that. Picked up some lumber last week to make some work tables for my shop. Talk about sticker shock. 2x4x8's were 7 bucks each and CDX 1/2" plywood was 33 dollars a sheet.


----------



## Investigator (Jan 28, 2021)

NCjeeper said:


> Understand that. Picked up some lumber last week to make some work tables for my shop. Talk about sticker shock. 2x4x8's were 7 bucks each and CDX 1/2" plywood was 33 dollars a sheet.



Yeah. Ive got over $4k in wood and that should have been around $1.5k.  It's really made me look hard at what I'm doing. I never intended to build a Taj Mahal, but I've cut some things I wanted.  I had planned on densifying the slab and then sealing it.  Looks like now that's out.  I go back and forth on painting, I will paint the exposed foam above 8' and on the roof but probably not the plywood walls.  It will be nice and very functional when done, if not quite as fancy as I had originally planned.


----------



## Investigator (Feb 13, 2021)

Well, I got exposed foam painted white, just used the flat white maintenance paint from Lowes at $35/5 gallons. Thanks to Stonebriar for the advice. Doing the foam under the entire roof and the top 4' of wall all around used right at 12 gallons.  The left over paint will probably be used in one of the rooms.

Also got some lights up.  Those are 4' LED ready fixtures (no ballast from factory) and 4' LED bulbs.  I'm very happy with these.  The fixture was $14 each, and the bulbs were just under $5 each (2per fixture).  That was cheaper than going with T8 fluorescents by a pretty good margin.  The bulbs are supposed to have over a 50,000 hour lifespan.  Both the fixtures and bulbs are UL rated.


----------



## Papa Charlie (Feb 13, 2021)

Looking good, you will be happy that you painted the foam/ceiling. 

Where did you buy the lights. Seem to put out some good light.


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## Investigator (Feb 14, 2021)

I bought from 1000bulbs.com strictly because I could pick up at will call about 10 minutes from my office and save the shipping.

I already am happy I painted! That was a great suggestion.


----------



## Winegrower (Feb 14, 2021)

The 8' LED lights are excellent...the whiteness and lack of shadows (with so many different point sources) make for very pleasant working conditions.


----------



## Investigator (Feb 14, 2021)

This is what I bought:





__





						2400 Lumens, 18.5W, 4100K, 4 ft. LED T8 Tube, Type B Ballast Bypass, Single-Ended Power, 120-277V, Case of 25, TCP 88LT800003 | 1000Bulbs.com
					

Enjoy the benefits of LED T8 tubes from TCP's direct-wire lamps and slash your maintenance costs. LED T8 tubes are ready to ship at 1000Bulbs.com!




					www.1000bulbs.com
				








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						4 ft. LED Ready Strip Light Fixture - Requires (2) LED T8 Bulbs - PLT-20257 | 1000Bulbs.com
					

Install this LED ready strip fixture to decrease energy and replacement costs in your work area. Visit 1000Bulbs.com for the lowest prices on LED fixtures!




					www.1000bulbs.com
				




on the bulbs, the lumens is how bright the bulb is, higher number is more output.  The 4100 Kelvin refers to the 'color' of the light output.  Lower numbers are more yellow, 4000 is basically pure white, 5000 Kelvin has that blue look.


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## Investigator (Mar 8, 2021)

Well, I've got some more done.  Things have been slow with the smowmageddon recently. Took a while for me to be able to get some things done.  But here we are:



I had enough plywood to deck above these rooms, and to line the walls on both outside rooms.  Basically rooms on either side of the center room have plywood all around.  The center room has 1/2" sheetrock, as well as the 'exterior' of the rooms.  I used what I call 'green rock", which is supposed to be mold and mildew resistant.  I don't think it is code compliant for bathrooms any longer in many areas, but 6 years ago it is what was used in my baths around showers and tubs.




And of course I got the pleasure of taping and bedding.




Finally got everything sanded and painted.  I used the same flat "maintenance" paint on the walls that I used on the foam.  I only painted the walled section of the shop.  The big open section, which is where I am standing while taking these photos, was left unpainted.




ONe other thing I have done was add an emergency light.  This building was built with no windows.  I had some concern that working inside if a main breaker went out, or if somehow I lost power I would be standing in the dark.  SO, I added an emergency light.




It's not really alot of light, but it's enough.


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## Investigator (Mar 8, 2021)

I know someone will ask, why not paint everything all around?  Let me address that.  Basically I'm over budget, not severely but enough.  I have been forced to cut a few things I wanted to do to keep it reasonable.  I painted the interior rooms for 2 main reasons: 1. I had about 2 gallons of left over white paint from painting the foam, and 2. I needed to paint the sheetrock at least.  

I ended up buying another 5 gallons of paint, it was only about $35 for a 5 gallon bucket.  That was enough to paint the interior of all 3 rooms, sheetrock and osb plywood on the walls.  It was also enough to go back and do a few touch ups to make it even.  It did help with how bright the areas seem to be and I'm sure when I add the lights it will be very helpful.

I didn't paint the rest of the shop because I would have to buy more paint and I'm trying not to nickle and dime myself to death.  And honestly, I like the look of wood on the walls.  Next is running the electricity all around and lights in the rooms.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 8, 2021)

Looking real nice. I admit the paint in the smaller rooms is an excellent idea since you will most likely need it for more detailed work.

I like the idea of the emergency lighting. One question, did you wire it so it would come on only if the light switch was on and the power went out or will it come on any time the power fails, even if you are not in the shop? I assume it will come on any time the power fails. Very smart idea that I had not thought about. Will be adding to the plan list.

As for the budget. You can always address something you skipped today down the road when your budget recovers. Supplies have gotten completely out of hand price wise. Since we are not the goberment, we can't print it so we have to manage it.


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## Investigator (Mar 8, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> Looking real nice. I admit the paint in the smaller rooms is an excellent idea since you will most likely need it for more detailed work.
> 
> I like the idea of the emergency lighting. One question, did you wire it so it would come on only if the light switch was on and the power went out or will it come on any time the power fails, even if you are not in the shop? I assume it will come on any time the power fails. Very smart idea that I had not thought about. Will be adding to the plan list.
> 
> As for the budget. You can always address something you skipped today down the road when your budget recovers. Supplies have gotten completely out of hand price wise. Since we are not the goberment, we can't print it so we have to manage it.



It's known as a pig tail.  By code, you can only have one wire connected to a single breaker.  SO, inside the breaker box/electrical panel the black wire is connected to the breaker, white to common bar, and ground to ground bar.   the black wire coming off the breaker is pig tailed into 2 wires, one goes to the switch to turn the lights on and off, the other goes to the emergency lights so they are under power at all times.  The batteries in the emergency lights stay charged.  If the light circuit  losses power such a throwing a breaker or complete power failure, the emergency lights come on, regardless of the position of the light switch.

Hope that makes sense.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 8, 2021)

Investigator said:


> It's known as a pig tail.  By code, you can only have one wire connected to a single breaker.  SO, inside the breaker box/electrical panel the black wire is connected to the breaker, white to common bar, and ground to ground bar.   the black wire coming off the breaker is pig tailed into 2 wires, one goes to the switch to turn the lights on and off, the other goes to the emergency lights so they are under power at all times.  The batteries in the emergency lights stay charged.  If the light circuit  losses power such a throwing a breaker or complete power failure, the emergency lights come on, regardless of the position of the light switch.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> 
> View attachment 358527



It does, and as I think about it, I should have known that. Must need more coffee or a senior moment.

Thanks for sharing that though. I do like the concept and will be adding it to the design of my shop.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 8, 2021)

Investigator said:


> It's known as a pig tail.  By code, you can only have one wire connected to a single breaker.  SO, inside the breaker box/electrical panel the black wire is connected to the breaker, white to common bar, and ground to ground bar.   the black wire coming off the breaker is pig tailed into 2 wires, one goes to the switch to turn the lights on and off, the other goes to the emergency lights so they are under power at all times.  The batteries in the emergency lights stay charged.  If the light circuit  losses power such a throwing a breaker or complete power failure, the emergency lights come on, regardless of the position of the light switch.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> 
> View attachment 358527


I did not know this was allowed under code.


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## FOMOGO (Mar 8, 2021)

Really no different than doing it in a outlet or switch box. Mike


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## Investigator (Apr 11, 2021)

Actually the pigtail was done inside the switchbox.  The photo was just for explanation, it's not mine.


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## Investigator (Apr 11, 2021)

Update:
I have the 120v electrical installed in all rooms and around the shop.  This is the 'main' section of electrical work I need.  I will need to add a couple of 220v circuits for my Radial Arm Saw and Tablesaw, as well as running to my RPC for the mill and lathe.

The B'port clone mill was bought a while back, and inside this building was the only place I had to put it.  

I made some mistakes when working on the building, mainly I didn't protect the floor while doing the spray foam.  I got overspray on it in places.  Then I compounded that problem by painting the walls without protecting the floor.  I assumed I could easily clean it up and then do some sort of densifier sealer to keep the dust down and help with stains.  Turns out, spray foam won't come off and paint is pretty tough to get up all the way as well.  So, I decided to 'paint' the floor.  I got a floor buffer and used 36 grit sandpaper all over the floor to clean it as best I could. It did nothing to the concrete but did remove the foam overspray and some of the paint.  I figured what paint was still stuck after that was good enough to paint over anyway.  I had to move the mill, paint the area where it would go, then put it down, then paint the rest of the place.


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## NCjeeper (Apr 11, 2021)

First machine in the shop is always a special moment. Congrats.


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## Larry$ (Apr 12, 2021)

Nice!


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## Just for fun (Apr 12, 2021)

Looks really nice,  I like the painted floor. 

Tim


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## Papa Charlie (Apr 12, 2021)

Congratulations on the first piece of equipment. 

The floor really brightens up the shop. I like it. Sometimes mistakes provide us with great opportunities.


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## Janderso (Apr 12, 2021)

I'm so darn jealous


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## Cadillac STS (Apr 12, 2021)

Looking really nice.

At this stage could consider framing off a small area for buffers.  A place to stand in and do the buffing.  Especially a two wheel stand up buffer will put out lots of debris in the shop.  Buffing station is not expensive and nice to have to finish off projects.


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## Badabinski (Apr 12, 2021)

Wow, this is my dream. Hopefully I'll be able to have something like this in 5 years or so.


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## Stonebriar (Apr 12, 2021)

Great job!  Looks great. Man with prices of steel and wood these days our shops are getting expensive to build.


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## Investigator (Apr 13, 2021)

Thanks for the compliments.  And yes, the painted floor really makes it brighter in the shop.  I probably wont be updating again until I get all my 'stuff' moved in.  I plan on starting this weekend.  I assume the move in will then turn into the rearranging of the shop.  I have a general idea of how I want things, but we will have to see how it turns out.

Things still to do:

Build sink and washing area in back of open area, drain and supply is there, just need to install.
Install RPC for mill and lathe.  I'm considering where to put the idler motor and thinking on top out of the way
Run 240v for radial arm saw, table saw, and welder
Install, wire, and plumb AC/Heat unit
Finish the build on my new air compressor (80gal) and install, along with plumbing shop for air
Maybe a ceiling fan in center of open area to move air

If I get anything fairly major done, I'll update and I'll get a tour posted when I get it "done".  Of course we all know a shop is never finished, it's constantly in a state of change and or improvement.


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## Investigator (Aug 18, 2021)

Just a small update.  Yesterday I got the AC hooked up and running.  I poured a pad for the outside unit, and placed the inside unit in the area above the shop. I got all the ducts ran and electricity hooked up.  Yesterday my AC guy came and soldered the lines and got it running.

To say I am happy and excited is an understatement.  In less than 30 minutes the shop went from 96 degrees and 82% humidity, to 80 degrees and 50%.  I don't know if I can express how much of a difference that felt like inside.  I've been excited to get out and work on the shop and get things set up, but at the same time I have also dreaded it and sweated my backside off while in there.  
I'm really looking forward to this weekend and getting some things done in relative comfort.


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## NCjeeper (Aug 18, 2021)

I imagine AC is mandatory in a Texas shop with the heat you get down there.


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## ArmyDoc (Aug 18, 2021)

Investigator said:


> Just a small update.  Yesterday I got the AC hooked up and running.  I poured a pad for the outside unit, and placed the inside unit in the area above the shop. I got all the ducts ran and electricity hooked up.  Yesterday my AC guy came and soldered the lines and got it running.
> 
> To say I am happy and excited is an understatement.  In less than 30 minutes the shop went from 96 degrees and 82% humidity, to 80 degrees and 50%.  I don't know if I can express how much of a difference that felt like inside.  I've been excited to get out and work on the shop and get things set up, but at the same time I have also dreaded it and sweated my backside off while in there.
> I'm really looking forward to this weekend and getting some things done in relative comfort.


What system did you use for AC?


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## Investigator (Aug 18, 2021)

ArmyDoc said:


> What system did you use for AC?



3 ton Goodman heat pump system with aux electric heat strips


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 18, 2021)

I know what you mean, I don't deal well with heat. My garage/shop that I had in California was unbearable August through September. I didn't like having the garage door open, I was on a corner lot and too many people could scope out what I had in there. No sense in advertising. So rarely used the shop during the day and often found myself having to do project late at night when it finally cooled off. Temp could reach 110F easily in there with an external temp of 90-95F. 

Congrats on finally being able to enjoy your shop. Would love to see any updates you might have to share.


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## Investigator (Aug 18, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> I know what you mean, I don't deal well with heat. My garage/shop that I had in California was unbearable August through September. I didn't like having the garage door open, I was on a corner lot and too many people could scope out what I had in there. No sense in advertising. So rarely used the shop during the day and often found myself having to do project late at night when it finally cooled off. Temp could reach 110F easily in there with an external temp of 90-95F.
> 
> Congrats on finally being able to enjoy your shop. Would love to see any updates you might have to share.


I will try.  I have had all my machines moved in for a while. At one point I had them sort of arranged but then cleaning and moving more and some electrical work forced me to kind of leave them in the center of the room.  Hopefully this weekend I can get the place swept up and get things back in place and take some pics.


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