# Looking for my perfect size hobby mill....



## Mr Mike (Sep 6, 2020)

Hi everybody.. 

So a while ago I was looking for the perfect size hobby Lathe at Pm and for me it was the 12 x 28 but it was not available to ship out due to not being in stock or I would have purchased it...

That being said what PM "Mill" would be the perfect starter mill, keeping in mind a 12 x 28 lathe would be what I would consider a good size hobby lathe. over say a 10 x 30 which is too small and less capable or 12 x 36 which takes up allot of extra space for the amount ill use it. I have zero Mill experience so I don't know enough to make an informed decision here...

Unlike needing the lathe now which I have a project for, I have time to wait on a Mill - I'm not rushed and can buy and wait 1 or 5 months to get it. but it does need to be smaller to take up less real estate yet big enough I don't outgrow it. Kinda like the PM 12 X 28 is just a smaller version and half the weight of its big brother, a full size 12 X 36 and uses the same tooling.

I would prefer a new made in Taiwan machine but may be willing to buy a used but in excellent condition one, I believe the PM's are Taiwan made so I am starting here.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## Aukai (Sep 6, 2020)

1228s are China, and my mill is a G0755 10x32 2 hp. PM has similar types too.


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## mksj (Sep 6, 2020)

Would suggest you look at the PM-728VT, not too big, but a nicely made mill with lots of features and well built. PM-30MV may also be a consideration, although not made in Taiwan. It is also variable speed belt drive and is 220VAC.





						NEW! PM-728VT Ultra Precision Milling Machine – Precision Matthews Machinery Co.
					






					www.precisionmatthews.com


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## Chewy (Sep 6, 2020)

I have the 1228 lathe and PM30 from Precision Matthews.  They have done everything I have tried for the last couple of years.  The variable speed helps to dial in the cutter to the operation.  That is important since you don't have the weight to dampen vibrations.  That is the most important plus for the PM & Grizzly 1236.  Ditto with a real BP versus an Asian lightweight clone. Went with the PM 30 for the extra Z.  Have bumped up against it several times so I am glad I spent the extra $.

Blondiehacks is doing a PM Reserch engine and showed where she just ran out of Z on a setup with the PM25.  That is a very popular startup mill. She did a work around to drill the bearing journals.  Could have just made it with the PM30.  No mater what you buy, you will have to learn to do work arounds on some setups.

There are several solutions to minimize the vibrations.  I am going to start trying them this winter, so as to be able to take heavier cuts with out the vibrations.  The machine has the power, just not the weight.

Hope this helps.....Charles


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## Aukai (Sep 6, 2020)

I like mine as it came with a power X, and Z, plus the 18" Z height.


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## Chewy (Sep 6, 2020)

P.S  What ever mill you decide to get, get the DRO at the same time.  It is worth more then it's weight in gold. Don't have one on the lathe.  I use dial indicators and it hasn't really bothered me.  But the tricks you can do on the mill are out of sight.


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## wrmiller (Sep 6, 2020)

PM machines with a 'T' in the model name are from Taiwan. The rest are from China.

You didn't specify working envelope, but I don't have a lot of room either (half of a 2-car garage), and my 1340GT and PM 935TS work pretty well for me.


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## Mr Mike (Sep 7, 2020)

Aukai said:


> 1228s are China, and my mill is a G0755 10x32 2 hp. PM has similar types too.



Hi.. I did not know that the 12 x 28 was not made in Taiwan... I thought PMs claim to fame was Taiwan made machines.. Thanks.



mksj said:


> Would suggest you look at the PM-728VT, not too big, but a nicely made mill with lots of features and well built. PM-30MV may also be a consideration, although not made in Taiwan. It is also variable speed belt drive and is 220VAC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The new 728VT looked really nice but a bit light weight 370 Lbs, will consider that as an option... Thanks.



Chewy said:


> I have the 1228 lathe and PM30 from Precision Matthews.  They have done everything I have tried for the last couple of years.  The variable speed helps to dial in the cutter to the operation.  That is important since you don't have the weight to dampen vibrations.  That is the most important plus for the PM & Grizzly 1236.  Ditto with a real BP versus an Asian lightweight clone. Went with the PM 30 for the extra Z.  Have bumped up against it several times so I am glad I spent the extra $.
> 
> Blondiehacks is doing a PM Reserch engine and showed where she just ran out of Z on a setup with the PM25.  That is a very popular startup mill. She did a work around to drill the bearing journals.  Could have just made it with the PM30.  No mater what you buy, you will have to learn to do work arounds on some setups.
> 
> ...



Thanks for responding... Question does quill travel from 3" to 5" matter much, Or no biggie... and what do you think about the new 728VT over the Pm30..  Its a bit more money, or what if I jump right too the 833 TV, has better weight and 220V but adding DRO is 900.00 More ouch, Thanks Mike.



Chewy said:


> P.S  What ever mill you decide to get, get the DRO at the same time.  It is worth more then it's weight in gold. Don't have one on the lathe.  I use dial indicators and it hasn't really bothered me.  But the tricks you can do on the mill are out of sight.



Ill keep that in mind, the New 728VT has quill Dro built in would that be good enough or..?



wrmiller said:


> PM machines with a 'T' in the model name are from Taiwan. The rest are from China.
> 
> You didn't specify working envelope, but I don't have a lot of room either (half of a 2-car garage), and my 1340GT and PM 935TS work pretty well for me.



Ha, thank you.. good info about the T - I just learned a usefull bit of info.. lol good im not the only one lacking space.. we both belong to club no space... Thanks Mike.


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## erikmannie (Sep 7, 2020)

My two cents:

(1) 2 of the 3 machines that I purchased from PM were back ordered. I bought what I wanted and waited, reveling in the anticipation, buying tooling and saving up to pay the balance due,

(2) PM’s Taiwanese machines are worth the extra money if you can afford it,

(3) I chose a factory DRO on all 3 PM machines that I bought. More expensive, but easy and expedient,

(4) You have heard it before, but PM’s customer support and general approach to customer care is top shelf. I wouldn’t even consider buying from anyone else. This is also why I wouldn’t buy a used machine.


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## 7milesup (Sep 7, 2020)

Surprised that no one has mentioned the 833TV.  I have the 833T and it is a really nice mill.  Cranking the Z axis up and down is a drag so get the z-axis power feed if possible.  I bought a DRO from a chinese supplier for $250 and installed it myself.  Took a little time but it was not a big deal.  As others have pointed out though, the DRO is what I would consider a must on a mill.
Overall I am very happy with my mill.


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## wrmiller (Sep 7, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Surprised that no one has mentioned the 833TV.  I have the 833T and it is a really nice mill.  Cranking the Z axis up and down is a drag so get the z-axis power feed if possible.  I bought a DRO from a chinese supplier for $250 and installed it myself.  Took a little time but it was not a big deal.  As others have pointed out though, the DRO is what I would consider a must on a mill.
> Overall I am very happy with my mill.



Wasn't sure what size/work envelope the OP wanted. But for me, if I was looking at the current offerings and wanted a bench mill, the 833TV would be the one I would get. With PF on both Z and X.

If I had just slightly more room, and a bit more money, I'd get the 935.


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## Mr Mike (Sep 7, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> My two cents:
> 
> (4) You have heard it before, but PM’s customer support and general approach to customer care is top shelf. I wouldn’t even consider buying from anyone else. This is also why I wouldn’t buy a used machine.



Yup that is what I hear all the time.... Thanks.



7milesup said:


> Surprised that no one has mentioned the 833TV.  I have the 833T and it is a really nice mill.  Cranking the Z axis up and down is a drag so get the z-axis power feed if possible.  I bought a DRO from a chinese supplier for $250 and installed it myself.  Took a little time but it was not a big deal.  As others have pointed out though, the DRO is what I would consider a must on a mill.
> Overall I am very happy with my mill.



I'm looking at the 833 and 932M too and asked about it in an previous post as well, And If i get the 932M I can include DRO and PF for the same starting price as the 833TV, thats why figuring this whole thing out is daunting... Thanks



wrmiller said:


> Wasn't sure what size/work envelope the OP wanted. But for me, if I was looking at the current offerings and wanted a bench mill, the 833TV would be the one I would get. With PF on both Z and X.
> 
> If I had just slightly more room, and a bit more money, I'd get the 935.



That is because I have no clue what work envelope I need, but will want to use a dividing head. And I'm trying to figure out if a 3" quill travel ( 728TV ) or 5" ( 932M ) would be more advantageous.

I can afford the 935, it looks like a Mini BP....! And super pretty. So far the 932M looks like the best deal but the 728VT looks like what I should more seriously consider... Thanks Mike.


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## wrmiller (Sep 7, 2020)

Mr Mike said:


> I can afford the 935, it looks like a Mini BP....! And super pretty. So far the 932M looks like the best deal but the 728VT looks like what I should more seriously consider... Thanks Mike.



I've had several bench mills, with the last being a CO 9x45 monster. But I wanted something that IMO was going to last longer, while retaining better accuracy. I don't do large work, but the work I do oftentimes requires good accuracy and repeatability. And a knee mill makes it much easier to do some gunsmithing/pistolsmithing setups than on a bench mill. The 935 doesn't take up any more room than my CO 9x45 did.

And yea, I call my 935 a 'baby Bridgeport'.


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## Skowinski (Sep 7, 2020)

Mr Mike said:


> Yup that is what I hear all the time.... Thanks.
> 
> I'm looking at the 833 and 932M too and asked about it in an previous post as well, And If i get the 932M I can include DRO and PF for the same starting price as the 833TV, thats why figuring this whole thing out is daunting... Thanks
> 
> ...



It sure sounds like you are going through all the mental gyrations I did.  I looked, seriously, at buying everything from the 727s to the 935.  In the end I decided that I was willing to give up getting more for less in order to get a full Taiwanese quality machine.  So, ordered and received an 833TV, without any power drives or DRO, figuring I can add those later on my own.  And I figure running the machine manually a bit first will make me appreciate those features more when I add them.  I'm in no hurry.

I would have gotten a "baby-Bridgeport" PM machine if I'd have had the space, but in the end decided the 833 would be more than enough for my needs and not stick so far out from the wall into the shop, which is already getting crowded.

Good luck with your decision!  I don't think you can go wrong with PM.


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## ArmyDoc (Sep 8, 2020)

I think 5 inch (vs 3 inch) quill travel is important.  I dont have one of these machines, but it seems to me that if you have a 4 inch drill bit, you can slip it in without changing your quill height, and still be within the 5 inch quill travel.  With 3 inch quill travel, you would have to move the head up before the change, and back down after.


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## Mr Mike (Sep 8, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> I think 5 inch (vs 3 inch) quill travel is important.  I dont have one of these machines, but it seems to me that if you have a 4 inch drill bit, you can slip it in without changing your quill height, and still be within the 5 inch quill travel.  With 3 inch quill travel, you would have to move the head up before the change, and back down after.



Point taken...


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## Aaron_W (Sep 8, 2020)

I'm not sure perfect exists, it is all tied to the work. Smaller mills typically have higher RPM which is a good thing for small endmills / drills if you plan a lot of small work. Big mills have bigger work envelopes and more power. Knee mills seem to be preferred, but at least one member here has a pretty good argument that for a given size the bench configuration is more rigid than the common Bridgeport style head.

As far as spindle travel that is primarily of use for drilling,, and more is probably more useful on a bench mill than a knee mill. Ideally when milling you want the spindle retracted for maximum rigidity. Height being adjusted with the knee or head, and the spindle only moving a short distance to fine tune height.


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## wrmiller (Sep 8, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I'm not sure perfect exists, it is all tied to the work. Smaller mills typically have higher RPM which is a good thing for small endmills / drills if you plan a lot of small work. Big mills have bigger work envelopes and more power. Knee mills seem to be preferred, but at least one member here has a pretty good argument that for a given size the bench configuration is more rigid than the common Bridgeport style head.
> 
> As far as spindle travel that is primarily of use for drilling,, and more is probably more useful on a bench mill than a knee mill. Ideally when milling you want the spindle retracted for maximum rigidity. Height being adjusted with the knee or head, and the spindle only moving a short distance to fine tune height.



Well said, and exactly what I do.

My CO 9x45 bench mill was more rigid than my 935 is. But for the bulk of the work I do I don't need the extra rigidity of the CO. What I do benefit from more is the setup flexibility of the 935. I occasionally use a 1/2" or 5/8" end mill, but I use a 1/4", 3/16", or 1/8" end mill (regular and ball) much more often. My primary reason(s) for selling my CO and buying the 935 was to get the articulating head and the knee. It just makes things so much easier for me.


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## Mr Mike (Sep 8, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I'm not sure perfect exists, it is all tied to the work. Smaller mills typically have higher RPM which is a good thing for small endmills / drills if you plan a lot of small work. Big mills have bigger work envelopes and more power. Knee mills seem to be preferred, but at least one member here has a pretty good argument that for a given size the bench configuration is more rigid than the common Bridgeport style head.
> 
> As far as spindle travel that is primarily of use for drilling,, and more is probably more useful on a bench mill than a knee mill. Ideally when milling you want the spindle retracted for maximum rigidity. Height being adjusted with the knee or head, and the spindle only moving a short distance to fine tune height.



Lol ya I should have stated perfect size for me..!

As with most things you can buy both way too little and way too much, Like the new Saw Stop I just bought... I knew 100% going in that I would need the professional size cabinet saw right off the bat based on previous knowledge and usage. At one point Iv'e had each class of saw and know their pros and cons.

Now, starting as a new beginner with a mill I would prefer not to run the whole mill machine gambit from mini to industrial wasting both money and time buying and selling Mills till the right size porridge bowl crosses my path, And being me when I do pick one I know right then to get one size up.

If I knew how big an item Id like to mill is then I would have some where to start, But I don't. 

I went from a HF 7 X 14 to a 9 X 20 lathe in two weeks.. Today I believe the 9 X 20 would do 85% of what I'd like to do, and figured I could at least learn allot of my first mistakes on it, But much too soon ran into a huge short cumming... The Compound & tool holder would just buckle under most any stress... Nothing but very light cuts were acceptable, So off I go to find a bigger lathe... 

BAM my prayers were answered, right there on craigslist... This beautiful 50+ year old Logan 1875 school lathe that's been in storage for the last 30 years rust and all. I had it 90% restored and almost ready to play with, But I had to donate the lathe to another person due to life events. then a year and a half later here I am again with an even bigger 12 X 36 lathe, But only cause I had some lathe time and some hands on to touch and feel, 

I would prefer not to go through that whole escapade again with a Mill. Here in Las Vegas I don't know anyone with a Mill.. I have never seen one in person because there are no tool stores that sell them here.. I see them  in videos but I am at a complete loss of reference.

And honestly I think that if I just start trying out milling and decide its to small or to large I wont be able to sell it except at a drastic loss because its a niche machine even more so than a lathe... I would prefer not to buy a PW-935 and find out its way bigger than I will ever need because bigger it's even harder to sell.. And while the New PW 928 VT is close, I can see a couple short comings already... Its light 370 Lbs and uses 120V power, And then theirs what appears to be the best buy the PW 932M 850 Lbs....

Lol in the end I might be better off like wrmiller says and get the Knee Mill... Thanks for the Info Man I appreciate it and all the points you brought up here.. Thanks Mike.


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## Mr Mike (Sep 8, 2020)

wrmiller said:


> Well said, and exactly what I do.
> 
> My CO 9x45 bench mill was more rigid than my 935 is. But for the bulk of the work I do I don't need the extra rigidity of the CO. What I do benefit from more is the setup flexibility of the 935. I occasionally use a 1/2" or 5/8" end mill, but I use a 1/4", 3/16", or 1/8" end mill (regular and ball) much more often. My primary reason(s) for selling my CO and buying the 935 was to get the articulating head and the knee. It just makes things so much easier for me.




Thank you Sir for your input It is appreciated, Lol If I only had knowledge of comparisons I would be golden.  Thanks Mike.


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## mksj (Sep 9, 2020)

I think we all have gone through a few machines and tools on our path to what we consider keepers. It was unclear as to the statement of the perfect starter mill as to your needs and the quality level you were looking at, but smaller mills do a very decent job of milling because a bench top design in a small configuration can be rigid enough, and for many they may be limited to 120VAC.  The PM-928 is on the higher price point for a starter mill for most people, travel is very good, and with the base is around 450 lbs which is manageable for most people.

With regard to resale value, it may be debatable as to which holds better value, a knee or a bench-top. I will say that better built machinery will hold their value better than poorly made machinery.  Some of the important characteristics of mills is the table travel, particularly the Y and also the Z (i.e. what will fit under the head). It sounds like you are divided between the something like the 935 and the 932, I personally feel on the latter you would be much better off with the 940. Main reason is you gain 4" of Y travel and 3" of Z travel. You are right up there with the pm-935 and a bit more Z travel. If you are looking for better quality, and you consider it affordable, then the PM-833 would fit the build.

I started with a bench mill comparable to the 932, and the biggest limitation was Y travel which was about 8.5" and you loose an inch with a DRO scale on the back. Put a bigger vice on it and you just can't get enough Y travel for milling something longer than 4". My biggest gripe was my first mill was marginal quality and some major faults, despite being quite expensive for a Chinese mainland built mill. There was also little to no post sales support and replacement parts took many months.  I still could do very good and accurate work, so a story very similar to Bill's. I ended choosing a full size knee mill which is north of 2 tons and a beast to move even with a rolling base.  Yes it is more rigid, it needs to be when you factor in the leverage distances going from the table to head in a long "C" shape. A bench-top can be very rigid with less mass. The PM-833 is close to 750 lbs without the base, the PM-932 is 850 lbs. Both are manageable with an engine hoist but still awkward.

If I was starting out, with what I know now after about 12 years of machining, in a bench-top the PM-833 would probably be my first choice, the PM-940 my second choice. If just making small parts and playing around, or even gunsmithing,  I would be very happy with the PM-928VT. I also consider these bench-tops as movable should you need to relocate, full size mills that is a different story. I prefer a knee for other reasons, but I hope I never have to move it again.


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## Mr Mike (Sep 9, 2020)

mksj said:


> I think we all have gone through a few machines and tools on our path to what we consider keepers. It was unclear as to the statement of the perfect starter mill as to your needs and the quality level you were looking at, but smaller mills do a very decent job of milling because a bench top design in a small configuration can be rigid enough, and for many they may be limited to 120VAC.  The PM-928 is on the higher price point for a starter mill for most people, travel is very good, and with the base is around 450 lbs which is manageable for most people.
> 
> With regard to resale value, it may be debatable as to which holds better value, a knee or a bench-top. I will say that better built machinery will hold their value better than poorly made machinery.  Some of the important characteristics of mills is the table travel, particularly the Y and also the Z (i.e. what will fit under the head). It sounds like you are divided between the something like the 935 and the 932, I personally feel on the latter you would be much better off with the 940. Main reason is you gain 4" of Y travel and 3" of Z travel. You are right up there with the pm-935 and a bit more Z travel. If you are looking for better quality, and you consider it affordable, then the PM-833 would fit the build.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your input, A Lot of good info... I need to do some soul searching - so much to think about.!


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## ArmyDoc (Sep 9, 2020)

I am going through much the same decision process as you are, so I thought I would share how I am approaching this decision.  
(Also, If anyone with more experience would like to comment, correct or improve on this I welcome their input.)

First Consideration: Available space.
For many people this is the rate limiting step. You can't get anything larger than you have space to put it, and building more space will likely cost more than the machine.

Second Consideration: Capability
It makes no sense to buy a less capable mill if you have the space, and the cost is the same.
Capability breaks down into 4 or 5 sub categories
- Work envelope - X, Y, Z movement not just table size
- Rigidity - Largely correlated to machine weight
- Power - Hp of motor, as well as single vs 3 phase
- Quality - largely China vs Taiwan vs Industrial machines
- CNC capability - native vs conversion (not important if you don't ever want CNC)

Third Consideration: Support / after purchase risk of problems
This can come in different forms depending on the machine
-New vs Used
-Warranty
-Community support / people you know who know the machine

Fourth Consideration: Tooling
What comes with it?  How much more am I going to have to spend to get up and running?
Many would put this higher, but I know how to solve this problem - I can always buy more tooling. If I have a problem with the machine, without support, I may not be able to solve the problem.

Fifth Consideration:  Cost
Some would put this higher too, but if you have three machines that are all at the same price, you make the determination based on Capability and other factors.  It really only matters with in a certain price range.  So I use cost as a price cap.  I won't look at machines that cost more than "X" dollars.  Below that, everything is fair game.

Using these, and your posts above I would say it boils down to the PM 940M for ~$5000 with power down feed and hardened ways, or the PM 935TS for ~$7,000.  I would have also included the 833T, but it doesn't have power down feed for boring operations, and I don't know if it can be added.  

These are very comparable in work envelope (with the PM 940M actually being a bit larger). Interestingly, they are within 100# of each other, and the PM940 design is probably more rigid. The one thing you give up though, is the ability to nod the head. Another consideration is that it is a Chinese bench top vs Taiwan knee mill.


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## wrmiller (Sep 9, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> Another consideration is that it is a Chinese bench top vs Taiwan knee mill.



For me, this would be very near the top of the list, as I want the machine(s) to outlast me. 

Also, my 935 is only slightly less rigid than my 9x45 was, and even that was only noticeable when taking very heavy cuts with larger end mills. Oh, and if you are going to be doing a lot of heavy cutting on a Chinese bench top (or any other for that matter) you need to put longevity near the top of your list, because continual heavy cuts on any of these small mills will slowly beat it to death. Just an observation.


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## Mr Mike (Sep 9, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> I am going through much the same decision process as you are, so I thought I would share how I am approaching this decision.
> (Also, If anyone with more experience would like to comment, correct or improve on this I welcome their input.)
> 
> First Consideration: Available space.
> ...



Hello...
Thanks for your insight, truly sorry your riding on the same boat as me... Curious, What size is your main lathe...?


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## Mr Mike (Sep 9, 2020)

wrmiller said:


> For me, this would be very near the top of the list, as I want the machine(s) to outlast me.



Hello Sir.

Lol I am almost 60, so the  plastic toy lathe & Mill from toys R us will out last me at this point, I do appreciate a quality tool though and always have.


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## wrmiller (Sep 9, 2020)

Mr Mike said:


> Hello Sir.
> 
> Lol I am almost 60, so the  plastic toy lathe & Mill from toys R us will out last me at this point, I do appreciate a quality tool though and always have.



I'm 65 (or is it 66?) and I figure/hope that I can get another 10 years or so out of me and my machines.


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## ArmyDoc (Sep 9, 2020)

Mr Mike said:


> Hello...
> Thanks for your insight, truly sorry your riding on the same boat as me... Curious, What size is your main lathe...?



Have to laugh.  I don't have a lathe yet.  I have two tickets to ride this boat boat of yours.  I'm going through the same troubles deciding on a lathe.  What I want is a PM 14-40GT, but it is really out of my price range.  I would like to get the lathe for right around $5k, so I am seriously looking at the PM 13-40GT.  The only thing I don't like about it is the 1.5 inch spindle instead of 2 inch.

I'm not locked into new, but I am leaning that way.  I saw a gorgeous used Clausing-Colchester  13x36 that had a hydraulic tracer attachment for $7500.  I should have got it and just parked my car in the rain till my shop is done.  But the garage has no AC and with Georgia humidity, I just couldn't.   Why?  Um, coolness factor?

Lol.  Actually, while I don't need it, it would be nice for one of the projects I have in mind.  One of the things I want to make are custom chess pieces.  It would be nice to get them all exactly the same.  Thus, the tracer attachment would have been really nice. 

That's the reason I would like to have a 2 inch bore - a standard King chess piece is between 1.75 and 2 inches in base diameter.  Yes, I can make the kings and queens individually on a much smaller lathe, but it would be nice to make them serially from one piece of bar stock.  Finish one, part it off, push in the bar a bit an start the next, as opposed to cutting each individually.   I just can't bring myself to jump from 5k to 9k to get the 2 in bore diameter.   If I could get it for $1 or 2k?  That would be much more tempting.

Only good thing I have going is I am building my shop, so space is not an issue.  (Yet?)


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## Mr Mike (Sep 9, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> Have to laugh.  I don't have a lathe yet.  I have two tickets to ride this boat boat of yours.  I'm going through the same troubles deciding on a lathe.  What I want is a PM 14-40GT, but it is really out of my price range.  I would like to get the lathe for right around $5k, so I am seriously looking at the PM 13-40GT.  The only thing I don't like about it is the 1.5 inch spindle instead of 2 inch.
> 
> I'm not locked into new, but I am leaning that way.  I saw a gorgeous used Clausing-Colchester  13x36 that had a hydraulic tracer attachment for $7500.  I should have got it and just parked my car in the rain till my shop is done.  But the garage has no AC and with Georgia humidity, I just couldn't.   Why?  Um, coolness factor?
> 
> ...



Choosing a lathe is just as daunting a task... of which ill be Zero help with. for me their all just toys because they server no real world usage other then something new to learn and putts with , for other people they are purpose driven and are a useful means to an end.

The only thing I know is I'd prefer quality over size... The quality of build in the 10" Logan I was restoring is easily better then this Chinese Enco 12 X 36 I just got.. I guarantee you that has more to do with price point and the Era in which they were built.

Buying used for me is not to difficult because i'm willing to risk my labor to fix the judgment laps I had to buy it... some times ignorance is bliss and may save some cash. for me its to learn and have fun with, Now if I had an actual hard purpose for the machine I would look at this in a different light.

I personally believe the statement made in Taiwan, doesn't automatically mean you get a better quality machine, you can get less quality from anywhere.

My only advice to you would be.... find a place where you can see and touch what your going to buy the first go round with the lathe... You don't have to buy it their but you will at least have an idea or reference to work off of.

I'm not joking... As an example the PM 12 X 28 on a stand I was looking at buying weights in at around 500 Lbs less than the PM-1236T 12 X 36 ULTRA, You and I both know the last 8 inchs don't weight 500 lbs, so something is amiss.

I am also currently working out how big a workshop to build in the back yard... My last workshop was 24' X 32' and was perfect for all my wood and metal working tools, This time I'm thinking 6' wider to stop the wife from hogging my open workspace.


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## ArmyDoc (Sep 9, 2020)

Mr Mike said:


> I am also currently working out how big a workshop to build in the back yard... My last workshop was 24' X 32' and was perfect for all my wood and metal working tools, This time I'm thinking 6' wider to stop the wife from hogging my open workspace.



Let me be the first to say, in the tradition of this site, "Build it bigger".  Sorry, just had to... its a tradition.

I am building a combination Shop and storage facility for the Ag equipment on my farm.  I still need to work out exactly how much room I need for the Ag equipment, but I'm planning on 40x40 for the shop portion.   I posted a rough draft in this thread, post #12.  Advice on shop build

I don't really have a purpose for the lathe / mill / shop etc.  I will be retiring sometime in the next 10 years I expect.  I have always enjoyed designing things and making things.  My undergrad degree was Biomedical engineering before medical school.  So I have some background... even if it is covered in 30 years of rust.   I just want to be able to explore ideas and make things that interest me, keep my mind nimble and have some fun.


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## mikey (Sep 10, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> I don't really have a purpose for the lathe / mill / shop etc.  I will be retiring sometime in the next 10 years I expect.  I have always enjoyed designing things and making things.  My undergrad degree was Biomedical engineering before medical school.  So I have some background... even if it is covered in 30 years of rust.   I just want to be able to explore ideas and make things that interest me, keep my mind nimble and have some fun.



You guys are going to find that your machine tools will herald a brand new phase of life for you, no kidding. You are about to experience a period of tremendous personal growth that you cannot yet imagine. If you think you're capable and self-reliant now, just wait 5 years and reassess. There is NO other hobby I am aware of that builds knowledge in so many different areas or provides the skills to make you far more capable than machining. And while your knowledge will be built on those who came before us, your skills will be developed by you alone and that is very, very cool! If you are self-confident now, you will be ten times that in the years to come.

Welcome to the Rabbit Hole!


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## Aukai (Sep 10, 2020)

My wife has Sudoku, I left 911, and will be working on things that don't bleed, unless it's me to keep sharp(I hope)


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## ArmyDoc (Sep 10, 2020)

Aukai said:


> My wife has Sudoku, I left 911, and will be working on things that don't bleed unless it's me to keep sharp(I hope)


What did you do before?  I've already slowed down.  I was working two jobs at over 60 hours a week.  I finally asked myself why?  I wasn't enjoying it.  Now I'm working 4 tens, and it is awesome. I have time to spend with my wife, time for my interests and I'm enjoying my work again.  I can retire in 4 years, but I cant see stopping right now.  Maybe I slow down again and move to part time at some point, but so long as I enjoy it, I'll probably keep working.


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## Buffalo21 (Sep 10, 2020)

I have 3 mills, a larger Bridgeport type (Franken-Mill), a Jet JVM-836 and a Rockwell vertical mill, so I have a big, medium and small (all floor standing). I end up using the Jet the most, I could use the Rockwell, as most of the work would easily fit into the Rockwell’s work envelope, but the Rockwell lack power feeds (on the list of things to-do), and the other two mills have power feeds on X, Y and Z axis. The good thing for me is all of the mills use R8 tooling. I‘ve had two different bench mills and I would be hard pressed to go smaller than the work envelope of the Rockwell.


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## Mr Mike (Sep 21, 2020)

Hi all...
I was watching some gear cutting videos, And that got me thinking...! that is something that I would like to be able to do. Does anyone know if these smaller bench mills like the 728VT is capable of cutting teeth into a 6" diameter iron blank, so i can make a missing gear for my lathe...?

Both Mr Pete and Keith Rucker used large machines, The small gears both < 6" didn't tax the machines in size or power needed to make the gears.

How would I find out what the max size gear I could make on the 728VT, I'm thinking this scope of work might help me figure out what size machine I need to get..?

Thanks for any help with this... Mr Mike.


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## Aukai (Sep 21, 2020)

ArmyDoc, I'm a Paramedic retired from 911 EMS (8 stars), now just doing interfacility transports to keep my medical.


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## Papa Charlie (Sep 21, 2020)

Mr Mike said:


> Hi all...
> I was watching some gear cutting videos, And that got me thinking...! that is something that I would like to be able to do. Does anyone know if these smaller bench mills like the 728VT is capable of cutting teeth into a 6" diameter iron blank, so i can make a missing gear for my lathe...?
> 
> Both Mr Pete and Keith Rucker used large machines, The small gears both < 6" didn't tax the machines in size or power needed to make the gears.
> ...


Most mills can do the job, may take longer on some. A rotary index tool is required for all. It can be done on horizontal or a vertical mill.


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## 5tmorris (Sep 22, 2020)

Mr Mike said:


> Lol ya I should have stated perfect size for me..!
> 
> As with most things you can buy both way too little and way too much, Like the new Saw Stop I just bought... I knew 100% going in that I would need the professional size cabinet saw right off the bat based on previous knowledge and usage. At one point Iv'e had each class of saw and know their pros and cons.
> 
> ...


I just bought the 932 mill and have been using it for about a month.  I had a LMS mini mill and the difference is amazing.  I would highly recommend the 932 mill with the DRO, Z axis drive and table drive.


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## addertooth (Nov 24, 2020)

I really enjoyed reading through this thread.  So many of the concerns mirrored mine on my recent Mill choice. 
Not surprisingly, a lot of the candidates were the same.  

Some notations: Large mills do rock, as they allow you to be more "wrong" with feeds/speeds/tools, and still get good results.
If you are a grab a random tool.. and are a "use the Force" kind of machinist, then a large and heavy mill will be your huckleberry.
If you are a "look up the specs on the endmill, do the calculations for feeds and speeds" then a larger/heavier/more-forgiving mill  
approach becomes less critical. 

A 3 inch quill can be a limitation *if* you can not turn the X/Y axis handles to move the spindle Off the part you are machining to gain 
more clearance.  Almost everything I mill is small.  Cranking the handles and moving a couple inches is no big deal.  Remember, often
the part you are machining is in a vice, or a jig which lifts it _*above*_ the table.  As said above, moving the table a bit will give the clearance
to change another bit into the chuck/collet. Moving the table can be problematic if the movement is not "repeatable".  But then, if you
bought a mill which is not repeatable, that is unfortunate.  

I am not as enamored with big motors, as most of the end mills I use will be half inch or less, and most of the facing mills will be in 
the category of about 2 inches.  I used to be a full-time Machinist years ago; now I am a hobbyist.  Should I ever feel the need to 
do real production work, then larger equipment will make complete sense.


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## MERLIncMan (Nov 24, 2020)

You want Taiwan - 728. Get the variable speed, and get the DRO.
Ok with China? 727 (what I have). I've got the variable speed and DRO.

4" everything (vise, DH, Rotab... actually the DH isn't 4", it's 5" a BS-0, but close enough)
You want bigger, I'd recommend a Knee - but that's just an opinion.

I ADORE my 727v!


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## addertooth (Nov 24, 2020)

Yes, I ended up with the 728vt in my case... it was the right fit for me.


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## Jim F (Nov 24, 2020)

there is a PM25 for sale right in your town.


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