# Please talk me into (or out of) CNC machining



## matthewsx (Mar 20, 2019)

Hi,

I currently have a small home shop with nice older/antique machines, lathe, drill press, sanders, grinders, etc. - no mill at this time although I miss my old Gorton 1-22.

My space is very limited so I'm torn between finding a small manual mill and learning CNC with a small hobby machine. Of course I realize the little china kits will only work with wood or plastic, but I'm assuming the skills you learn there will transfer to larger machines once I get the space/budget for something better.

I've been working around power tools my whole life though my engineer father made sure it wasn't my career. I'm currently a network admin/engineer and consider myself very competent with computers although I have limited experience in 3D cad/cam types of software. Hopefully it's gotten easier since the early days of AutoCad.

So, I mostly just work in the shop for relaxation but you never know where life will lead you ( I used to have a power equipment business). And, as cool as learning how things were done 100-years-ago with my Seneca Falls lathe I have this feeling that I could do much cooler stuff with CNC or 3D printing. I just don't know if the learning curve will prove too steep and would rather not start out with a $10,000 machine that will end up sitting because I don't want to work that hard at it.

My gut tells me to look for a project that someone else has moved on from for the first try, something small that will fit on my basement work table.

I know some of you have been where I am and probably have good advice, maybe even a lead on a machine that would be suitable.

Cheers,

John


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## Aaron_W (Mar 20, 2019)

It is a common misconception that the mini-machines cannot work metals, they can they just have to take smaller bites than big machines. I am not doing any CNC so can't help you much there, but there do seem to be some machines better suited to conversions than others.


They may be too small for your needs, but Sherline offers CNC ready versions of their mini-mills and lathes. The way they are set up it is also possible to configure them to allow both manual and CNC work as desired.

They also offer complete CNC packages (mill and lathe) ready for use. The entire package would fit on a good size dining room table.






						CNC Systems – Sherline Products
					






					www.sherline.com


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## coherent (Mar 20, 2019)

You should be able to learn the CNC basics on any machine. You will not gain as much knowledge as quickly from an already built and configured Chinese machine compared to building something yourself. I would suggest starting out with parts or a kit  from one of the online retailers that sells parts and kits. If you get a small manual mill, along with the lathe you can  make many of the parts you need yourself (stepper mounts, bearing mounts etc).  The machines themselves aren't that complicated and buying the components and electronics and assembling/wiring things yourself will help tremendously when troubleshooting issues when they occur (and they will). I built a couple CNC routers many years ago, but when I got my first mill I elected to get a small manual mill in a model that others had already converted to CNC (From LMS). It was small but handled steel and aluminum very well for small projects. That allowed me to first learn to operate the mill and make the mounts, bearing blocks etc and manually convert the mill to CNC myself. I later  sold it and moved to a larger mill which I also converted to CNC. Since you are already a computer and software guy, that will help a lot because learning the Driver, CAD and Cam software can be one of the hardest obstacles for some.  I really enjoy and prefer CNC vs manual and the building is half the fun for me, so it depends on your desires.  Learning the CNC side of machining will provide options and results that are hard if not impossible to duplicate with a manual machine. I have the bug and now have a CNC plasma table , CNC router table, CNC mill, CNC laser and a 3d printer which I suppose you could consider a CNC machine. If CNC machines interest you, go for it! If the building side of things really don't interest you get a small mill that is already CNC or a model that is CNC ready and the manufacturer or other source sells an upgrade/kit.


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## macardoso (Mar 20, 2019)

I have a CNC mill and have found it a great way to expand my shop capabilities. I chose to convert a manual machine and would share that it is a large undertaking. If you love building machines like me, then the build is 90% of the fun, but buying a premade one would certainly get you going quicker. I have found that self building the right way doesn't save you a whole ton of money over a comparable machine. Conversion kits are a good middle ground that take a manual machine to a CNC with no more labor than wrenches and screwdrivers.

My machine is a G0704 from grizzly (about 350lbs) and does extremely well in aluminum (works best up to 3/8" cutters) and is very capable in mild steel (up to 1/4" tooling). Any larger tooling or harder materials can be cut with great success, but require a little more patience. As said above a small machine can do most anything a large machine can, just slower and smaller.

Think about what kind of work you want to do. Sheets of soft materials like plastics, wood, and aluminum are best done on a router type machine, but the extra size of the workpiece often equates to poor accuracy and rigidity (there are plenty of exceptions). If you want to do smaller, more accurate work, and harder materials, a bed mill like the G0704 is more the style of machine (at the expense of a small work area).

Feel free to ask any specific questions, I love the hobby.


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## Winegrower (Mar 20, 2019)

I spent my career as a “computer and software guy” and CNC is way too much like work for me.


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## cjtoombs (Mar 20, 2019)

To get the full benifit of a CNC machine, you need to be able to put your ideas into a CAD program and spit them out for the machine with CAM.  You can do some by G coding by hand and using conversational, but that's not the meat and potatoes of CNC.  I started out my CAD/CAM with Turbocad and switched to Fusion 360.  It's quite full featured and relatively easy to use.  It's also an integrated CAD/CAM package (with analysis, too).  The best thing about it is that it's free for hobbyists and has a huge online learning support.  If you just want to dip your toe into the CNC water, you could get one of the cheap Chinese routers or router kits and do some small projects in fusion to get the feel for it.  From there, you can decide whether your time/money/interest curve dictates you buy a complete running CNC machine or build one.  I started my CNC hobby with a Tormach PCNC1100 and I've made quite a number of parts on it and really love the machine.  I picked mine up second hand and saved quite a bit of money that way.  Good luck and enjoy.


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## Liljoebrshooter (Mar 20, 2019)

No info on CNC, but you mentioned a Gorton. Just a teaser.
Joe Hynes


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## BGHansen (Mar 20, 2019)

I bought Bridgeport with a 2-axis Anilam Crusader (circa 1983) 18 months ago.  I can only program the CNC via conversational, so CAD only gives me tangent/corner points for the manual programming.  I'd used a manual mill/drill with hand wheels for around 7 years, then upgraded to a small knee mill, still with hand wheels.  Upgraded the knee mill with a 4-axis DRO around 5 years ago; wish I'd have done the upgrade years before.

I can still work with hand wheels only which is the position I get in with my small knee mill in the middle of winter.  My DRO stops working if the shop gets below 32 F.  The DRO makes the work sooo much faster that I now bungie a heating pad to the DRO for winter use.

Same thing for the CNC on the BP.  I've made some parts that could have been done manually, but it would have required rotary table work with multiple set ups.  The CNC, even for a one-off, is sooo much faster than manually milling certain things.

Once you get a taste for CNC, you'll appreciate the purchase and won't want to go back.

Bruce


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## Groundhog (Mar 20, 2019)

I have a small CNC mill (Syil X4+). It will do anything a similar sized manual machine will do and a lot more.

You can use a CNC mill as a manual just by learning a couple of commands, then the mill will act just like a manual mill with power feed. However, just like a manual mill with running power feed you do not get the feed-back to your hand. That feedback is very helpful when learning, not needed so much after you learn your mills capabilities.

In g-code mode the CNC is more capable than a manual mill. Especially in controlling 2 or more axis at the same time. Think arcs and circles and valleys and hills. But then you need to learn CAD and CAM and have access to those programs (Fusion 360 is free & what I usually use).

Right now my mill is down and I am having to make a new control cabinet. NOT what I enjoy or want to do. If I could afford it I would buy a new CNC mill but of necessity I am having to re-build the electronics I have. Just like converting a manual mill to CNC - that is great if you enjoy that sort of thing. I don't. I want to be milling not wiring. I've been dicking with this for 8 or 9 months.

So, in short, if it were me I would obtain a ready made CNC mill.  If I wanted the project of building a machine I would convert a manual mill to CNC. If I just wanted to learn the basics of machining I would get a manual mill knowing that eventually I would replace or convert it to CNC.


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## ThinWoodsman (Mar 20, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> I've been working around power tools my whole life though my engineer father made sure it wasn't my career. I'm currently a network admin/engineer and consider myself very competent with computers although I have limited experience in 3D cad/cam types of software.



My bread&butter is still (after a few decades of it) computer work. The absolute last thing I want to do in machining is use a computer. Good thing purchasing and forum-posting don't count as machining, heh.

The same line of thinking has set me against buying a 3-D printer. If I had some product in mind to build, or was in some way trying to make money off the work I do in the shop, things would be different. Instead, I fix things that are broke, and take on projects that can be accomplished with manual machining.

So I thought I'd throw in a contrarian vote alongside Winegrower's and say don't get the CNC, in fact, buy yourself a good vise and a large collection of files


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## JimDawson (Mar 21, 2019)

Why not jump in head first   I didn't have a CNC for about 45 years, then I bought one. Vastly expanded my capabilities and even makes me look like a machinist.  CNC really allows you to easily do stuff that is difficult to nearly impossible on a manual machine.

I would want one that has both manual and CNC capability, in other words a CNC with hand wheels on it.  I use both mine in both manual and CNC mode, sometimes both in the same job.


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## cjtoombs (Mar 21, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> Why not jump in head first   I didn't have a CNC for about 45 years, then I bought one. Vastly expanded my capabilities and even makes me look like a machinist.  CNC really allows you to easily do stuff that is difficult to nearly impossible on a manual machine.
> 
> I would want one that has both manual and CNC capability, in other words a CNC with hand wheels on it.  I use both mine in both manual and CNC mode, sometimes both in the same job.



I don't have handwheels on mine, if I want to do work on it manually, I just enter the commands in the command line one at a time.  Good for doing simple roughing or small jobs I don't need to put into CAD.  Conversational is one step up from that, good for simple features like pockets and bolt hole patterns.  I don't think not having handwheels is much of a handicap, all things considered.


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## Reddinr (Mar 21, 2019)

I'll throw out another opinion.  Get it.  I got an industrial hobbies mill and CNC kit many years ago and was in the same spot (do I or don't I).    It was for a mix of hobby and work related stuff.  It has been endless fun to use.  It has worked well for wood, plastic, aluminum, FR4 and steel materials.  On occasion I've done hardened steel but it isn't fun.  I machined a mount for a porter-cable router for softer materials where the RPM is needed.  I like the CAD process because it allows me to think through the design without wasting too much material.  It has an MPG that can act as a hand-wheel.  I sometimes think it would be nice to have the feel of the manual hand-wheels but I get by without it.  For me, large work envelope is key so I got the largest mill I could afford, fit in and move relatively easily.


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## ttabbal (Mar 21, 2019)

You guys are making me think about converting my Bridgeport. My wallet is very concerned.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2019)

Thanks for all the advice here 

Today I ordered a parallel card for my old PC, a stepper motor and a controller. I like the idea of converting a machine since I will be able to use it and my lathe to make some of the parts. 

I figure I'll mess around with the design software and get the PC talking to the controller, that won't cost much more than the $50 I dropped on Amazon today. If I want to go forward I will have time to do my research and planning.

Cheers,

John


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## BGHansen (Mar 22, 2019)

ttabbal said:


> You guys are making me think about converting my Bridgeport. My wallet is very concerned.


Well, then you're not going to want to follow Cooter Brown's thread on converting his BP over to 3-axis CNC . . .  I'm hoping to see his live and personal when he gets it up and running.  I'm probably going to upgrade my circa-1983 Anilam 2-axis to 3-axis using DMM or ClearPath servos and a Centroid Acorn board.  But, I got the clearance from my better half to start looking for a Tormach 1100 with an auto tool changer!  Love that woman to death!

Bruce


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## Hawkeye (Mar 22, 2019)

Some years ago, I converted my little X2 size mill to CNC. It would be nice if it were bigger, but I do use it for small jobs with shapes that would be a pain to cut manually. So far, I'm only doing 2.5D, but I'll eventually get into true 3D. I recently added a fourth axis. I would advise getting a control board that can handle a fourth, just in case you decide to go that route.


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## alloy (Mar 23, 2019)

I've been doing CNC for almost 30 years now. It's treated me very well and I've never been out of a job. My first mill still had a punch tape reader in it.  But it got me started.  My CAM program ran on DOS on a 286-12 with a math co-processor. I had two 40 megabyte hard drives (not gigabyte) and it cost me over $2000 in 1990.

My advice is if you do this buy the biggest machine you can fit in your space/can afford.  You can put a small job on a big machine, but not a a big job on a small machine.  The learning curve is steep, but you will make your first part and run in and show your wife what you just made and she will smile and say "that's nice dear" not having a clue what it took to make it.  (ask me how I know this) But you will feel a great sense of accomplishment and you will try more challenging parts.

Good luck and we will be here to support you whatever you decide to do.


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## ThinWoodsman (Mar 23, 2019)

alloy said:


> but you will make your first part and run in and show your wife what you just made and she will smile and say "that's nice dear" not having a clue what it took to make it.



I can get that experience without a $3000 CNC upgrade - must mean my manual machining skills are awesome


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## alloy (Mar 23, 2019)

Only $3000???  Wow, where are you getting your CNC's at???


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## kb58 (Mar 23, 2019)

To the OP, here is how I've talked myself out of CNC: I'm not in business and can't justify the expense. I'm not retired yet, so don't have a lot of time to mess around with learning a whole new system. Also, for now at least, I actually enjoy the doing. Someday, I want to make wooden gear clocks, and if the end result is CNC-produced gears, why not just buy a CNC-produced clock kit and save $$$$?

It comes down to answering the question: Do you enjoy the making of the part more than the end result? Answer that and you're set. That said, my thinking is subject to change at any time.


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## Fueler (Mar 24, 2019)

My advice is make the room. Surely there is something you haven't used in 5 years that can be rehomed.
I want to say skip the small desktop machines unless you are making model steam engine parts.
Step up a little bit.
 In no particular order. Tormach, Automate, Syil should have something that fits your needs.
For conversions I feel the best overall control is the Centroid Acorn series.


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## matthewsx (Mar 24, 2019)

Fueler said:


> My advice is make the room. Surely there is something you haven't used in 5 years that can be rehomed.



I wish there was something I could get rid of that hasn't been used for5 years. Actually, 5 years ago I had two 2400 sqft buildings, a Gorton MasterMill 1-22, a forklift, a 10,000 lb automotive hoist, and a bunch more stuff that I no longer have. My shop lives in a 10' X 12' section of garage that I share with my wife and moms cars and their stored stuff. I've whittled my offsite storage down to 400 sqft, and need to get rid of most of that this year. I really do understand not going with something that has a too small envelope and not enough power to really work well. If I tried really hard I could maybe come up with a 4' X 5' area to put a CNC, does anyone want to trade one for a bunch of old racing go-kart stuff?  

Cheers,

John


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## Fueler (Mar 25, 2019)

You did say "old" concerning the go karts.  If it still has some value is it time to make a super deal to the next generation?
While they may have some sentimental value they are not earning their keep anymore.


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## matthewsx (Mar 27, 2019)

Fueler said:


> You did say "old" concerning the go karts.  If it still has some value is it time to make a super deal to the next generation?
> While they may have some sentimental value they are not earning their keep anymore.



Believe me, I have tried. 

The karting hobby is not very strong these days, tracks have closed down and lots of people just don't want to take the time to pursue the hobby. I actually gave most of what I had to a young guy a while back  but he went and got himself a third DUI and I had to pick up my stuff from his families farm. Very disappointing....

The stuff I have that is truly old will get sold to collectors. The other stuff I will keep trying to get something local going on up here in northern Michigan. Problem is the nearest track is a 3 1/2 hour drive. I have literally a ton of parts, a jig for welding frames and a great frame design that takes all inch standard hardware. 

It's not a matter of sentimental value, it's all from a business I closed years ago. I scrapped most of the "junk" parts already and will have to do the same with the "good" stuff soon if I can't make a deal with someone. The guy who owns the place where it's stored has a kid about the right age to get started and I gave him the two chassis I used for my daughter and her friends back in Arizona. We might be able to get a grassroots thing going here if he has the time and inclination but there are so many other things going on that are easier.

Wish me luck

john


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## Fueler (Mar 30, 2019)

Good luck. If you can pull it off and get some space you won't regret stepping up beyond a toy bench top machine.


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## johneezreno (Apr 6, 2019)

Just my 2 cents. I spent 10K for a used Brother Tc-225 and a Hitachi Seiki HT-25 delivered and placed. Spent an Additional 500 on a phase converter. Did my own wire work. The Brother was my failure. It has a conversational control that doesn't work with my cad/cam post processor. I have a few hobby jobs that have actually paid for the equipment. But not enough work to be able to quit my day job. Now I'm a slave to my own hobby. Lol. But as I mentioned with the Brother. If you buy used. Make sure it is a G-code machine. Way easier to program. No matter the material. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Bob Korves (Apr 6, 2019)

johneezreno said:


> Now I'm a slave to my own hobby.


Hobby machinists should read and understand your post, John.  My dad told me regularly to never turn a hobby into a job, because it will then cease to be a hobby.  I have strictly followed his advice, and have had a lot of fun in life, while letting my reliable day jobs pay the bills.  Now I am retired, and I can play all I want, very little encroaches on the fun of just living.  The other rule is that hobbies should only use SPARE money...


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## ThinWoodsman (Apr 6, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> My dad told me regularly to never turn a hobby into a job, because it will then cease to be a hobby.



Conversely, there's the line about "if you enjoy what you do, you'll never work a day in your life."

There are plenty of hobbies out there if commercial success in one starts to drain the fun from it.


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## macardoso (Apr 12, 2019)

My goal is simply to only take jobs I find fun and to try to pay for the shop 100% with shop income. I never want to make it my job, and I'd prefer to not spend a lot of my career money on the hobby.


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## BGHansen (Apr 12, 2019)

macardoso said:


> My goal is simply to only take jobs I find fun and to try to pay for the shop 100% with shop income. I never want to make it my job, and I'd prefer to not spend a lot of my career money on the hobby.


Always nice to pick up a few jobs to fund/outfit the shop.  I reproduce Erector set parts which has made my shop more than self-supporting.  I'm looking at buying a Tormach 1100 which will put me in the hole, but having our daughter finish up law school a year ago at $200,000 for 3 years opened up the budget a bit.

Bruce


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