# Sometimes it doesn't pay to try to select "just the right buyer" for your favourite machines



## TorontoBuilder (Nov 11, 2022)

So when I posted our lathe for sale I had a specific strategy to assure that we'd sell the lathe quickly and thereby assure that we had the space clear for a new lathe my brother will be purchasing shortly.

Brother is adamant that the lathe must be gone before new one arrives (his GF would kill him otherwise), but there is tension between us because he'd sell well below the value of the lathe based on my tracking of lathe sales in the region over the past 12 month period. In reality there has only been one variable speed lathe sale in this size in the past 4 months and it sold for significantly over $4k

I am a joint owner of the lathe and I don't need or even want to sell it. I only just completed the variable speed conversion and I over 1000 into the variable speed conversion. I did a high end conversion with totally new controls as I was inspired the conversion of a modern GH-1440 lathe by a user who posts here and on Canadian Hobby Machinist's form, but I can only remember his name is John and not either handle. I was really looking forward to doing a lot more work on this lathe.

The only reason I agreed to sell is because I got a chippy to restore.

So my strategy was to post a price that was reasonable, but that had room to have a decent price reduction to show apparent potential savings by the time to sell the lathe rolled around. Then I tossed in free delivery within about 100 kilometer radius since I know from past experience that is a huge barrier for many people who'd otherwise buy a new lathe just to avoid worry of moving used machine.

I also used the realtors tactic of prelisting and not having showings for a week to ten days to create anticipation and the FOMO. To alleviate potential concerns that buyers may miss out on another lathe while waiting to get in to see what could be a garbage lathe I created 7 video playlist on youtube to allow potential buyers to preview the lathe, the spindle run out, the sequence of operations of the lathe with the new VFD, and the accessories.

This strategy worked, I got about a dozen inquiries to which I replied fully to every question that they had and to many issues that they didn't mention but that i wanted them to consider, as well as asking about their location and what sort of shop the lathe would have to be moved into. From these exchanges I was able to separate the tire kickers and time wasters from the serious buyers, or so I thought. I had 3 people who appeared to be serious potential buyers. And one who initially said all the right things and who I had told my brother was my preferred buyer.

After expressing much enthusiasm and allegedly after watching all the videos and hearing all my answers the fellow said he was all set buy the lathe on the weekend. I was cool with his delivery location and grade level garage shop. The only hitch was that he said that he wanted to have his friend watch the videos and give his opinion and asked to be given time to solicit that opinion. I said that is fine with me since the showings were not until Saturday

The next day (Thurday) I had not heard back from the guy, but wsn't worried. Then I had a fellow contact me who wanted to buy the lathe right away like that afternoon, and come pay cash and pick-it up himself today (Friday). I said that we had a process outlined for the sale and had put other people who wanted to view the lathe off, but I'd ask my brother if he'd be comfortable contacting those people and "postponing" their appointments (I knew he would) and I said I'd get back to him later in the afternoon. I did however tell him I thought the Friday pickup would be impossible since my brother is not home today and I'm dead tired and really sore from a hard week and cold rainy weather...

Anyway, I decided to contact the young fellow who was my preferred buyer because he had expressed such keen interest in both the lathe and in mentoring and potentially using some of our shop equipment on his own projects just to see if he'd had his friend give his opinion yet. He hadn't so I laid out the situation and asked if he'd please do that and I'd hold off this other guy for a 1/2 day. He said he would and asked until 11:30pm to get back to me. I said fine, but was annoyed that he hadn't acted to get the opinion sooner.

What really ****** me off was not that the fellow lead me on repeated expressing his interest and desire to purchase the lathe if it checked out, and in wanting to come see it, and then eventually declining, I'd have been cool with that. But rather it was that he invented a fictitious friend to blame.

I'm positive the person is fake given the complete BS his fictitious machinist said:












I wont bother posting more of his continued BS but needless to say he continued trying to waste my time and post further crap so I blocked him. I never want to deal with that type again, I dont care is he listed a Alpha Romeo Spider for sale for free I wouldn't deal with him again.

End of rant.

BUT also beware you guys who convert your lathes to run on 3ph motors with VFDs you're going to have synchronization issues, this guy's master machinist friend says so.

I guess I also better stop procrastinating and go out in the rain to drive to the cold shop


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## mmcmdl (Nov 11, 2022)

2 steps to selling
1- post object for sale
2- sell to first interested party that shows up .


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## benmychree (Nov 11, 2022)

Another good reason not to convert to frequency drive!  In my mind, ditto for ELS.


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## mksj (Nov 11, 2022)

What does a VFD have to do with threading synchronization, nothing. The spindle is tied to the gearbox, spindle speed has no effect on the thread pitch. If that was true, ask him why lathe manufactures would sell lathes with VFD installed. ELS is offered on some high end lathes from the manufacturer, and how does he think CNC lathes work. A lot of people are fishing, scam artists, or just do not invest in learning (critical thinking). If somone is that ignorant, then I just move on to someone that has at least half of a brain that is working.


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## GeneT45 (Nov 11, 2022)

What I see is a guy who was seriously interested and a friend who is much less knowledgeable than the buyer thinks.  Perhaps there's motive, or his friend just talks a big game and now wants to be let off the hook  in terms of responsibility for the purchase.  I cant' imagine someone with even a few weeks experience thinking that a VFD, RPC, line power, or overhead belt would limit your threading ability...

I guess the real message is, don't give up on beginners in general, but this guy's probably got some lessons to learn on his own - through no fault other than picking a bad "expert" to rely upon.

GsT


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## projectnut (Nov 11, 2022)

I can understand the buyer's hesitancy to fork over $4000.00 for an unknown commodity.  While you may have done an excellent job on the conversion, you're asking a potential customer to trust your skills with no guarantee the machine will perform as expected, and no recourse if it doesn't.

If you're offering a warranty period and documentation to support the changeover (schematics, parts list, etc.) you might have better luck getting a premium price.  As it stands now the potential customer has no idea of exactly what was done to the machine, the quality and reliability of the components, or the skill level of the person performing the work.  

They can't contact the original manufacturer for parts or support.  They are essentially on their own once the cash has changed hands.  If they don't have the skills and expertise to diagnose and repair possible future problems the machine becomes nothing more than an expensive paper weight. 

Over the years I've purchased dozens of machines.  I tend to shy away from those that have been modified by previous owners.  All too often parts used at the time are either no longer available, or so expensive the machine isn't worth repairing.

I have built machines from the ground up knowing that if/when the time comes to sell them, I'll be lucky to sell them for a fraction of the money I have in them.  As an example, several years ago, I built an articulated end loader about the size of a Bobcat.  I spent several thousand dollars on parts and have well over 1,000 hours in design and fabrication time.  The machine runs perfectly and will probably do so for many years to come. 

That being said when the time to sell comes I'm asking any potential buyer to trust my fabrication skills and choice of components.  In addition, they're taking the chance that if something does eventually break replacement parts will be available.  I do have a parts list of the components used, but it might not be worth the paper it's printed on by the time I sell the machine.  I already know the hydraulic motors have been replaced in the manufacturer's lineup with a different model.  What I don't know is if the new model is a direct replacement, or physical modifications will need to be made to the machine to accept them. 

You're going to have to find a customer with the skill sets to not only run the machine, but to diagnose and repair it should problems arise in the future.


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## rabler (Nov 11, 2022)

If someone had installed a custom/homebrew ELS, I could see that being a bit more worrisome.  An ELS does depend on the mechanism for leadscrew to spindle timing.  If it was a homebrew ELS rather than a well known endeavor (such as the Clough42 design) that would be a challenge to debug even for someone with coding experience, if problems came up.  Especially if you didn't have the source code.  I suspect some miscommunication about this created confusion between VFD and ELS.

A VFD conversion, I would not hesitate, unless it was a no-name knock-off.  In which case I would price in a replacement known VFD in the purchase price.

I have a Monarch 10EE lathe that had the electronics replaced with a pretty poor DC controller.  I started to work up an improved microcontroller-based DC system which worked well, but then realized the DC motor itself is in rough shape.  So I'm sitting on the fence of getting the DC motor repaired or replaced, or doing a VFD conversion.  In this case I think a VFD conversion, if done with schematics and to reasonably neat workmanship standards, would be a resale win, but may still pursue the DC option.


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## Jim F (Nov 11, 2022)

Try selling a SB 9C, noone wants a change gear lathe.........


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 11, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> 2 steps to selling
> 1- post object for sale
> 2- sell to first interested party that shows up .


But then some *&$) might get your stuff.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 11, 2022)

benmychree said:


> Another good reason not to convert to frequency drive!  In my mind, ditto for ELS.



Nonsense. His was not a real objection and was grossly ill informed.  I guess you'd tell people not to buy servo lathes or smart lathes eh?

I have 3 other people wanting to buy the lathe as well. I was just trying to find a good home.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 11, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Nonsense. His was not a real objection and was grossly ill informed, and I have 3 other people wanting to buy the lathe





rabler said:


> If someone had installed a custom/homebrew ELS, I could see that being a bit more worrisome.  An ELS does depend on the mechanism for leadscrew to spindle timing.  If it was a homebrew ELS rather than a well known endeavor (such as the Clough42 design) that would be a challenge to debug even for someone with coding experience, if problems came up.  Especially if you didn't have the source code.  I suspect some miscommunication about this created confusion between VFD and ELS.
> 
> A VFD conversion, I would not hesitate, unless it was a no-name knock-off.  In which case I would price in a replacement known VFD in the purchase price.
> 
> I have a Monarch 10EE lathe that had the electronics replaced with a pretty poor DC controller.  I started to work up an improved microcontroller-based DC system which worked well, but then realized the DC motor itself is in rough shape.  So I'm sitting on the fence of getting the DC motor repaired or replaced, or doing a VFD conversion.  In this case I think a VFD conversion, if done with schematics and to reasonably neat workmanship standards, would be a resale win, but may still pursue the DC option.


There was no miscommunication, I gave him a link to a video series on the VFD installation.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 11, 2022)

By the way, the selling price of my lathe is $3000 not $4000, and the going rate for the same lathe with single phase original motor is $2800.
Had I known I was going to be forced to sell this lathe I'd have sold it to an acquaintance who had been looking for a lathe who I helped find a suitable lathe... he paid $2500 for the one he found. I'd have sold to him for $2500.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 12, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> But then some *&$) might get your stuff.





TorontoBuilder said:


> I have 3 other people wanting to buy the lathe as well. I was just trying to find a good home.


I sell to *&$)'s with bad homes all the time , it means nothing to me . As long as they walk away happy why would you care ?


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 12, 2022)

I would have said to buyer 1.  Send a non refundable deposit of 10 or 20% to hold it for 2 days.  Then its cash on the day you pick it up.  I refuse even Pay Pal as they buyer can complain you never shopped it or some problem to them  and they believe him and not you the seller.  A deposit is common on sales today and a serious buyer will gladly pay if they are interested.  I have found that being a nice seller guy will bite you in the butt.   Also most hobbyists are cheap and want a deal.   I use Square Bank on sales.  Not pay-pal if I can help it. 

I sell a service or I sell my training classes and as soon as I send the info via email and someone says they want to come, if the class is 60 days or less from the class I get 100% payment (non refundable unless I can find someone to take their place, .or (see below, there is a serious issue he can prove)the day the student says he is coming.  If It is months away I get 1/4 down non refundable (unless they can prove they are ill, had a death in the family, etc.) and a NRF balance is due 30 days prior to the class.  I just did a class down in Nowata OK and I had an old guy tell he really wanted to come but was on social security and could not afford the class.  

I felt sorry for him and told him to come and pay me what he could afford.  Anyway he came, drove a brand new pick-up, told the other students he owned a BBQ restaurant, and just build a new shop.  They got talking about refineries and he told them he made a lot of money last year in the stock-market investing in Refineries.  How he just bought x y z new machines.  I overheard some of it and said "I thought you were poor"?  Then he said " the bank was rich and he was poor"  It's a 5 day class, he left after 3 days and paid me less the 1/4 the price the others paid.   He screwed me.  Because I felt sorry for the old guy on SS. Being nice and felt it was the Christian thing to do.  Next time some scmuck plays me again I will feel the same way, screwed!


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## SLK001 (Nov 12, 2022)

I, too, love my lathe.  However, if I were to sell her, I would simply post her for sale with the price I was looking for.  The FIRST person to come by with the money would purchase her lock, stock and barrel.  I would cringe, but if they wanted to drag her to her new home behind a Kia Rio, it wouldn't matter to me (although I might follow somewhat behind them and pick up parts that I could resell).  If her new home was in the middle of a muddy pasture, I wouldn't care (and probably wouldn't even know, because I wouldn't follow her on social media).

In short, quit anthropomorphizing your cast iron babies.  If one must go, one must go.  Send it along and just look forward to your new baby.


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## WCraig (Nov 12, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> 2 steps to selling
> 1- post object for sale
> 2- sell to first interested party that shows up .


Very slight modification:

1- post object for sale
2- tell anyone interested that you will sell to the first person who shows up with cash money equal to your asking price
3- sell to first party that shows up with an acceptable quantity of cash or sends a sizeable deposit ahead of time.

The world is full of flakes with dreams.  And scammers.  It always has been so but online sales venues just make it easier for them to take up your time.  A serious buyer won't have any problems with the above.  

I'm not saying to be hostile with potential buyers...just very clear that the plan is to exchange their cash for the object you're selling.  ASAP.  It's fine if you end up becoming friends with them but that's not the objective.  They would be scanning other sections of the online listings if that's what they were interested in.

Craig


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 12, 2022)

Okay so clearly none of you were scarred by the sale of a antique barnes treadle lathe in near mint condition, or rather finding out the new owner abused it and let water sit on the ways and rust them severely   

I'm a minimalist, I buy used almost exclusively where possible. I believe machines should last decades, I know most other people dont share that view and can sell things without guilt or worry, I'm just not one of those people. I get anxiety when I have to sell things I like.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 12, 2022)

That should be in the " sales you regret thread " .   I have no problem selling things I like , unlike things I need .


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## Ischgl99 (Nov 12, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Okay so clearly none of you were scarred by the sale of a antique barnes treadle lathe in near mint condition, or rather finding out the new owner abused it and let water sit on the ways and rust them severely



If you got the money you wanted for it, why would you care?  When I sell something, I could not care less if they brought it straight to the scrap yard, I’ll be smiling all the way to the bank.


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## 7milesup (Nov 12, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Okay so clearly none of you were scarred by the sale of a antique barnes treadle lathe in near mint condition, or rather finding out the new owner abused it and let water sit on the ways and rust them severely
> 
> I'm a minimalist, I buy used almost exclusively where possible. I believe machines should last decades, I know most other people dont share that view and can sell things without guilt or worry, I'm just not one of those people. I get anxiety when I have to sell things I like.


I get what you are saying, but unless the item was a family heirloom, it should not matter.  I understand the anxiety when selling things you like and the belief that they should be taken care of forever.
It is somewhat interesting that you mentioned that you are a minimalist.  That makes perfect sense when feelings of anxiety creep in due to the concern that the machine is taken care of.  It is a good thing that I have limited money and space, otherwise, I would be "saving" machines from "abuse."  LOL


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## Eddyde (Nov 12, 2022)

Buying used machines is the perfect example of "Caveat Emptor". You the buyer are ultimately responsible for deducing any issues with the item. You must be willing to take the risk that there might be problems with the machine after you purchase it and that the seller may or may not have known about them. If one is not willing to take that risk they should buy new.

As a seller I always am totally honest, but I know not all are like me so when buying, I always inspect thoroughly or if buying site unseen, I am willing to take the loss.


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## Dabbler (Nov 12, 2022)

@TorontoBuilder About a third of the guys you meet online will try to game the system and game you as well.  I'm sorry, but that is the reality of today's people, not matter where you are.  He is trying to lower your price and discourage others by spouting nonsense.  Discontinue the ad, restart the sale at the same price, and offer to a first come with cash basis.  Use strong support comments such as:  "this is a known good lathe that has variable speed".

It is hard to do, but you have to step back of any emotional involvement in the selling process.  It needs to become no different than selling 5 - 20s for a 100 dollar bill.  It's just business, the money, the lathe.  Accept no bull.

[update]  the guy is clearly no newbie.  he is playing dumb.  As dumb as a fox.


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## projectnut (Nov 12, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Okay so clearly none of you were scarred by the sale of a antique barnes treadle lathe in near mint condition, or rather finding out the new owner abused it and let water sit on the ways and rust them severely
> 
> I'm a minimalist, I buy used almost exclusively where possible. I believe machines should last decades, I know most other people dont share that view and can sell things without guilt or worry, I'm just not one of those people. I get anxiety when I have to sell things I like.



I do share the view that machines should last decades.  The oldest machine in my shop is a 1916 Seneca Falls Star #20 lathe.  It is in fact a family heirloom that my wife's grandfather made prototype vending machine parts on for over 40 years.  The machine was obsolete in the 1940's but he continued to use it until he retired in the 1950's.  The company gave it to him as a retirement present.  When he passed it went to my wife's father.  I'm not sure where it will go when I pass.  I do have a couple nephews that might be interested, but currently at only 6 and 8 years old it would be up to their parents for several years to come.

Like you the machinery in my shop is all dated.  It's a mix of pieces from the early 1900's the 1940's the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's.  The newest piece of equipment is from 2011.  It will all be with me until the time they put me in the box.  After that I have no control over what happens, and I'm not going to waste what time I have left worrying about it.


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## rabler (Nov 12, 2022)

IMO, you should shorten the title of this thread to remove the _"to a newbie"_ part.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 12, 2022)

i'm a total jerk to people who play games with me, especially in an equipment sale.
i give them one chance, and one chance only to purchase the piece for sale
any funny business, they get cut off at the knees
too many insincere folks nowadays, everyone trying to scam each other


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## 7milesup (Nov 12, 2022)

Ulma Doctor said:


> too many insincere folks nowadays, everyone trying to scam each other


This has been happening since the beginning of man, just not electronically.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 12, 2022)

7milesup said:


> I get what you are saying, but unless the item was a family heirloom, it should not matter.  I understand the anxiety when selling things you like and the belief that they should be taken care of forever.
> It is somewhat interesting that you mentioned that you are a minimalist.  That makes perfect sense when feelings of anxiety creep in due to the concern that the machine is taken care of.  It is a good thing that I have limited money and space, otherwise, I would be "saving" machines from "abuse."  LOL



I've positive that I saved my chipmaster from a fate worse than death...


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 12, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @TorontoBuilder About a third of the guys you meet online will try to game the system and game you as well.  I'm sorry, but that is the reality of today's people, not matter where you are.  He is trying to lower your price and discourage others by spouting nonsense.  Discontinue the ad, restart the sale at the same price, and offer to a first come with cash basis.  Use strong support comments such as:  "this is a known good lathe that has variable speed".
> 
> It is hard to do, but you have to step back of any emotional involvement in the selling process.  It needs to become no different than selling 5 - 20s for a 100 dollar bill.  It's just business, the money, the lathe.  Accept no bull.
> 
> [update]  the guy is clearly no newbie.  he is playing dumb.  As dumb as a fox.


If he was playing dumb he failed, because I blocked him and went to my other potential buyers and sold to the guy who wanted to come friday and pay cash, except he had to come sunday since it is the first day available. If he does not show I have two others as fall back buyers. They just didn't exhibit any passion about owning this specific lathe.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 12, 2022)

rabler said:


> IMO, you should shorten the title of this thread to remove the _"to a newbie"_ part.


True. but too tired to do so.


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## projectnut (Nov 13, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> If he was playing dumb he failed, because I blocked him and went to my other potential buyers and sold to the guy who wanted to come friday and pay cash, except he had to come sunday since it is the first day available. If he does not show I have two others as fall back buyers. *They just didn't exhibit any passion about owning this specific lathe.*


I can't imagine anyone exhibiting a passion about owning a piece of equipment they've likely never seen or run before.  They're probably more interested in whether it runs and learning how to operate it.  The closer it is to its original state the more likely there's information and parts available to help them through the learning process.

A person showing passion at the point of sale is often one that pays far more for the product than a wise measured buyer who calmly and reasonably assesses the strong and weak parts of the product.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 13, 2022)

projectnut said:


> I can't imagine anyone exhibiting a passion about owning a piece of equipment they've likely never seen or run before.  They're probably more interested in whether it runs and learning how to operate it.  The closer it is to its original state the more likely there's information and parts available to help them through the learning process.
> 
> A person showing passion at the point of sale is often one that pays far more for the product than a wise measured buyer who calmly and reasonably assesses the strong and weak parts of the product.


Obviously everyone who wanted to buy a monrach10EE and spent years looking disagrees.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 13, 2022)

The lathe sold to tool and die maker who is just about to retire and lose access to machine tools....

I am happier with him buying the lathe actually...


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 13, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> The lathe sold to tool and die maker who is just about to retire and lose access to machine tools....
> 
> I am happier with him buying the lathe actually...


bonus, we only had to load the lathe on their trailer, they handled the rest of the move. Saving me a ton of wear and tear on my body and gas and tolls.


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## Dabbler (Nov 13, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> who wanted to buy a monrach10EE


Actually I think a Hardinge HLV is more preferred (to me) but I've looked at several, and wasn't tempted to overbid (or even bid) on any of those.

I actually made an offer on a fully working 10EE, because the guy was selling it, but he reconsidered, and it is now in storage in a drafty barn near a lake in N Alberta where it will slowly rot away.  Buyer enthusiasm is a matter of self control.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 13, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Actually I think a Hardinge HLV is more preferred (to me) but I've looked at several, and wasn't tempted to overbid (or even bid) on any of those.
> 
> I actually made an offer on a fully working 10EE, because the guy was selling it, but he reconsidered, and it is now in storage in a drafty barn near a lake in N Alberta where it will slowly rot away.  Buyer enthusiasm is a matter of self control.


Well I had an extreme passion to own a either a monarch or a chipmaster... but at the end of the day I had no intention of over paying. I never wavered in my goal as the years passed, I was not seriously tempted by other machines. I did look at a number of hardinge's but could not afford an HLV.

In the end I got what I wanted for $750 bucks only due to passion and dedication and always saying yes when anyone asked "want to see my lathe?"


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## Dabbler (Nov 13, 2022)

hey 750$ is a bargooon on any scale.  I hope the rbuild is quite satisfying.  RobinHood at the other forum has a a similar one  which he ahs completely rebuilt, down to every bolt.


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## SLK001 (Nov 13, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> bonus, we only had to load the lathe on their trailer, they handled the rest of the move. Saving me a ton of wear and tear on my body and gas and tolls.


Why is this a bonus?  Do you have to deliver things you sell in Canada?  When I sell, it's "bring your own transportation and muscle".


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 13, 2022)

SLK001 said:


> Why is this a bonus?  Do you have to deliver things you sell in Canada?  When I sell, it's "bring your own transportation and muscle".



Just because we offered "free delivery" to assure that we sold the lathe in time to get it moved before new lathe arrives next weekend. 

That was a condition of brother's GF. Otherwise we'd have had to move the lathe to a friend's shop and sell it from there. Not convenient when that is not in the same town


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 13, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> hey 750$ is a bargooon on any scale.  I hope the rbuild is quite satisfying.  RobinHood at the other forum has a a similar one  which he ahs completely rebuilt, down to every bolt.


I know. I was going to offer substantially more but he lowballed himself.

I'll have to check out Robinhood's thread. I'm going to go to town on mine, but IDK about every bolt. Some must still be good.


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## 7milesup (Nov 13, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Buyer enthusiasm is a matter of self control.


I feel this way about choosing a wife.


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