# Clausing 5418 Lathe



## Rick_B

Good morning folks - its been awhile since I frequented this forum. I am in the process of disassembling a Clausing 5418 12" lathe (serial number 001985) and was wondering if anyone has knowledge of this machine? I have some specific questions but thought I'd see if there was anyone who owns or has experience with one of these machines?
Thanks
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

I have a 5418, haven't had to do much disassembly on it but can try to help you out.  I have a scanned copy of the manual too if that'll help.  My email is bghansen08@gmail.com is you want a copy.


----------



## Rick_B

BGHansen said:


> I have a 5418, haven't had to do much disassembly on it but can try to help you out.  I have a scanned copy of the manual too if that'll help.  My email is bghansen08@gmail.com is you want a copy.


 Thanks BG - I have a manual that clausing sent me.  I'm struggling with two areas right now.  The first is disassembly of the compound.  It appears the compound lead screw goes through what the manual calls a "bearing".  There is a shoulder on the screw that prevents the screw from coming out.  I believe the"bearing" is threaded into the compound body.  There are two holes in the bearing that look to be for a pin type face spanner wrench.  I'm looking for verification that I am correct and the the thread is right hand before I start the "whacking". 

The second area is the gear box bearings - there are 5.  All are marked MRC 202 SFF18.  3 of the bearings match up nicely with a standard 6202 with a 5/8 bore.  The other two have OD and width measurements that match a 6202 but happear to have a sleeve in the bore (permanent) that brings the OD down to .561.  I'm wondering if the sleeve is standard or user modified?  I did check the bearing prices with Clausing and they are astronomical - especially for the standard 6202 with 5/8 bore.

Appreciate any thougts/insights/experiences you may have.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

I can take the compound off my lathe and shoot you some photos.  I'm assuming you're talking about the bearings on the ends of the QCGB, the ones that have sheet metal caps with 3 screws holding the caps on.  No problem taking them off and measuring the shaft diameter.  Look for some photos by Monday.

Bruce


----------



## wa5cab

Rick,

The drawing of the compound assembly clearly shows threads on the nose of the compound feed screw bearing.  While I don't have any information that would prove it, there is no logical reason for left hand threads to have been used here.  If it were mine, I would just assume right hand threads and take it out.

On your bearing comments, did you mean "brings the ID down to .561." instead of "brings the OD down to .561."?  As far as your question goes, I would call an industrial bearing supplier and ask them to check whether any of the bearing manufacturers supply a 6202 but with bore reduced by 0.0015".  If none do, then Clausing must have done it.  So also ask the supplier whether a 6202 clone is available with a larger than 0.6250" bore that you could sleeve down to 0.5610".  That'll be a non-trivial operation, though.

Duh!  Sorry.  Must have had a mental lapse or Senior Moment.  0.561" (actually 0.5625") would be 9/16", not 0.0015" under 5/8".


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

I can't attach photos; they're on my work phone and the cable is at work . . .  My compound bearing part# Q-556 is right hand threaded into casting C-370.

On the QCGB, shaft 700-047 (one highest and closest to the bed) is 9/16".  The bearings, p/n Q-484 are both 1 3/8" OD, 9/16" ID.  The rest of the bearings, p/n 50-18 are 1 3/8" OD, 5/8" ID.

Hope that helps, Bruce

p.s.  These part numbers are from the recently uploaded Clausing 5300/5400 manual.


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  That makes more sense, so disregard my earlier except for the OD versus ID question.


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks guys for the confirmation on the compound screw bearing.  Now I just need to get the right pin type face spanner wrench.

Regarding the QCGB bearings - I did find the bearing numbers from the Clausing manual - and they are available from Clausing - for tons of money. Based on my measurements all 5 are standard 6202 special bore (5/8") bearings available from accurate bearing at a reasonable cost.  Two of them appear to be sleeved down to .561" - not special bore but sleeved.  I do need to check if that is an available standard bearing but I'm also going to try getting that sleeve out of the existing bearings.  I plan on posting a picture of the bearing later today and I'll include some progress photos.

Thanks

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

After some searching in the scrap bin for just the right pusher rod - I discoverd that the bearing sleeves were simple pressed into a standard 6202 bearing with a 5/8 bore - these are readily available.  I don't know if the sleeved bearing bore is a standard item, user modfication or Clausing modification - I'll check that out and if it is not standard I'll just get a 6202 5/8 bore bearing andpress the sleeve back into it.





Here some before/after photos of some of the sections already completed.


----------



## Rick_B

And some more pictures


----------



## Rick_B

And a few more


----------



## wa5cab

Ha! I finally figured it out.  You bought two machines, a rusty used one that you took apart and a brand new knocked down for shipping kit.


----------



## Kiwi

Hi Rick nice work and choice of color did you rechrome the tailstock crank wheel or just polish it?


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Here's my 5418, doesn't look nearly as nice as yours!  There's a picture of the underside of the compound; use your imagination to see the end of the bearing threaded into the casting.  Also a shot of the RH side of the QCGB. 

One note on your rebuild, the ends of two shafts have spacers between the bearings and the surface of the casting (lowest shaft and upper one furthest away from the bed).  My presumption is they keep the shaft/bearings from chucking back/forth.  My spacers are ever so slightly proud of the casting so the sheet metal covers press against them.

The opposite side of the output shaft has a jam nut on it.  My presumption here is the lead screw is pinned to the output shaft with an 1/8" brass shear pin.  The jam nut is tightened to pull the lead screw end up to the bearing so there is no chucking back/forth on the lead screw.

Hope this helps, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Kiwi said:


> Hi Rick nice work and choice of color did you rechrome the tailstock crank wheel or just polish it?


 
The TS handwheel was actually sand blasted then I foolwoed up with a wire whee and three buffing compunds.  I was leary at first but like the result.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Bruce - thanks for the pictures and re-assembly thoughts.  I saw the spacers and washers (manualk indicates to use washers as required) so I was leaning towards your thoughts about using those pieces to control shaft movement.

Another couple of questions - there is a key on one of the QCGB shafts that is hooked on both ends - well I busted on of the hooks off.  Is this a standard item that can be purchased off the shelf or am I dependant oin Clausing for it?.

Second question - I have one broken tooth on the large back gear - how detrimental is one missing tooth and should I be pursuing a repair?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

I think the key you're referring to is Q-451.  Looks like from the parts drawing that the bent up ends are done so the key rides side to side with gear 341-033 on shaft Q-482.  The middle portion should fit in gear 341-033 with a bend up on either side of the gear.  That gear is attached to the QCGB sliding selector lever so I'm pretty sure the key moves with the gear.  I'll take a peek at mine and see if it's visible to confirm I'm picturing the assembly correctly from the parts prints.  You should be able to put the key stock in a vise clamped against a piece of stock slightly wider than the gear; hammer each end over and clean up with a file.

I've read other strings and seen ads for machines on eBay with a tooth broken out of the back gear.  Didn't seem to cause a lot of problems, but do you fix it with the lathe already torn down?  Personally, I'd weigh the cost of a replacement gear vs. how much I plan on using back gears.  If you're going to do a lot of single point threading with heavy cuts, probably look at replacing the gear.  If you don't fix it, I'd be careful changing chucks if you lock the spindle by engaging back gears without pulling the spindle lock pin.  Make sure you have full teeth engaged and not the gap in your back gear.  You could paint a witness mark on the shaft and/or gear that'd stand out when you lift the cover over the headstock, just turn the spindle by hand to make sure you're on full teeth when changing a chuck.

By the way, my lathe is serial# 2215, just a few hundred after your lathe.  They should be really close if you need me to look at anything else.  Mine is a "stripped" model; 2 1/4" x 8 threaded spindle (not L00), no clutch, no varible speed drive.  I do a deep knee bend to flip the lever on the floor to lift the motor and move the drive belt to change speeds.  Do most of my turning at 650 RPM as a result.  Regardless, it's a really nice lathe.  Should make you lots and lots of chips with no hiccups.  I wish I had the taper attachment like yours!

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## wa5cab

I have to comment that I doubt that you will bend both ends of square key stock 90 degrees without breaking unless you heat it at least dull red.  Before trying that, I would check whether or not Clausing still has any left.  Just be prepared to pay current day prices, not what it would have sold for half a century ago.


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Here's photos of the LH & RH sides of my gear shift lever.  The lever is 1 3/8" wide, key is 1/8" stock.  Robert is probably right about cold bending the key stock in a vise/hammer.  I bent up a couple with my Diacro brake; no problem bending 1/8" key stock with a good piece of American-made iron!  Maybe a two minute job.  I ground the sides flat at the bend (pooched out with the bending).  If you want them, shoot me your address and I'll get them in the mail to you.  They should work fine, you'll just need to sand/grind the ends down to length.  Maybe a little filing too as the key stock checked at 0.127" thick.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Bruce - I was going to post that I agreed with Robert regarding the bending of key stock - but obviously the proof is in the pudding - nice job and I certainly would like to give it a try.  I'll send shippping information via PM.  I have tried Clausing - waiting for a response on pricing from the manufacturer.  based on their other quotes I'm expecting to sit down before I look at the quote ($40+ for a $7 bearing).  I understand the laws of supply/demand but that seems a little excessive.  My thought was to attempt getting a rectangular key and milling out the middle of it to create the hooks but your version is much more efficient.

My lathe is also a stripped down version - step pulleys, no clutch, no variable speed - I've been told that the variable speed is kind of finicky and I should be glad I don't have it.  My motor is 3 phase so a VFD should give me all the necessary variability I would ever need.

Regarding the back gear missing tooth - I've seen where a few guys have replaced missing teeth (definitely way over my skill level) so I may attempt to find someone who can do that.  My sense is that the one missing tooth is not catastrophic for the things I will be doing but I would like to have it corrected as long as its all apart.

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions - I'm sure this will get more complicated as the assembly process begins.

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  The key is smaller than I expected, and maybe softer.


----------



## Rick_B

I've been cleaning/painting and reassembling the apron - what a freakin jig saw puzzle that is .  In the process of disassembly I broke the oil fill window.  In looking a bit closer - the apron has an oil reservoir in the bottom that is about 1-1/2" deep.  The only thing that gets close to that oil level is the lower gear driven by the lead screw.  I'm not sure if that is correct or not?  On my south bend there is a complicated set of wicks that feed oil from the reservoir to the upper gears/shafts.  This clausing has nothing like that.  There is a gasket on the back cover for the worm and worm gear but I don't see how the oil from the reservoir would get in there?
Anyone have thoughts on the apron lubrication?
Thanks
Rick


----------



## stonehands

Rick, Don't know if you are going to make a replacement window or not. I found a small stash of them in some 'school parts', if you want I can send one up to you in an envelope. Let me know--David


----------



## Rick_B

stonehands said:


> Rick, Don't know if you are going to make a replacement window or not. I found a small stash of them in some 'school parts', if you want I can send one up to you in an envelope. Let me know--David




Thanks Dave - sent you a message

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

I've noticed that a number of machines that have aprons or gearboxes like that - sump but no oil pump.  It's what's known in some circles as splash lubrication.


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

I peeked in my oil fill plug and looked the the gears up top, seem to all have oil on them.  I believe Robert is correct, the worm gear that travels on the lead screw splashes oil on everything in the apron.

Bruce

p.s.  Keys should be to you by Tuesday


----------



## Rick_B

What you gus are saying makes sense regarding the lubrication - there are not that many lube points on the apron so the resorvoir oil has to be a splash distribution system.

I am reassembling the apron and as I got to the half nuts I started wondering about there condition.  I don't have enough experience to know what I am looking at so I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion based on the picture below - are these half nuts shot or still serviceable in a hobby environment?  I can try to get different photos if that would help.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

One more apron question - on my machine there were two circular labels to the left of the half nut lever.  I thought I had good pictures of them but when I looked at them they are too blurry to see much.  I know one says OUT and one says IN but there were other words that I can't make out.  I'm wondering if someone has a picture (or could take one) of those labels.  Also a rough idea of the circle diameter if possible.

Edt to add - I apologize for the confusion - I think the circular labels mentioned above are actually on the back gear lever - not the half nuts.  In any event I stillwould like to the info above.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

If I am seeing what I think I am seeing, the threads in your half nuts look pretty badly worn.  In cross-section, the Acme thread is symetrical.  Meaning that the peak and trough are the same width.  It looks like the ID of the threads in your half-nuts is about half the width of the OD.  If that's true, then the half-nuts are worn out.  

On the labels, I've never seen a 5400 Series lathe and all that the manual shows is OUT and IN.  So I don't know what else was there.


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Your half-nuts look pretty worn.  They'd probably still pull the carriage along when engaged, but your threads may be inconsistent.  Bet those will be a really pricey part from Clausing!  The OUT/IN label is on the head stock for the back gears.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks guys - I was afraid that was going to be the answer .  

Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

There is a seller on eBay (Rickyrooster) selling a pair of of 5900-series half nuts for $145 + $12 s/h.  Auction# is 171917506783.  It has a couple of days to go.  The 5300/5400 series manuals and 5900 series manuals both call out p/n Q-395 for the half nuts; these should work on your lathe.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Bruce - I saw those but the manual I looked at for the 5900 series had an S at the end of the part number - I'm not sure what the S means?  Someone said it was for STANDARD versus metric?

Rick


----------



## BGHansen

I'd be VERY surprised if Clausing in the late 1950's/early 1960's was using anything metric on anything.  You could have the seller lay a scale on the nuts to verify the tooth spacing on the half nuts.  They'll likely come off auction with no bids, you might be able to get them at a better price if no one is interested.

Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

I heard back from Clausing today - a Q395 and Q395 s are the same part.  They have them in stock for $157 plus $15 max shipping.  From what i can find out - a rebuild would be in the vicinity of $140 and the used ones on ebay for $157 shipped doesn't make sense.At his point I'm leaning towards the new set but I may take Bruce's suggestion and contact the ebay seller with an offer if they don't sell.  I'm thinking, based on the new cost, of $75 for a used set.

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

BGHansen said:


> I'd be VERY surprised if Clausing in the late 1950's/early 1960's was using anything metric on anything..
> 
> Bruce



I agree.  On the "other" side of the house (Atlas), they didn't make a machine with an actual metric lead screw until 1975 (12") and 1977 (6").


----------



## Rick_B

Bruce - the keys arrived yesterday - perfect fit - thanks and I owe ya one.
David - window arrived yesterday - again thanks and I owe ya one too.  do you happen to know if the line on the window goes on the top or bottom when installed?

All - I've been working on getting the under drive installed - this is the classic 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag scenario but its in.  I think I understand most of the adjustments but I do have a few questions on the operation of the belt tensioning arrangement.  Below are photos of the front and rear of this assembly.  There is a "cam" type lever (rear photo) connected to the handle through a linkage rod.







First question - when the belt is fully tensioned the nose of the cam should be pointing vertical and locked on the lower side of the counter shaft frame - I think?  Can anyone verify that?

Second question - the manual indicates that to change belt position  on the pulleys the handle should be raised up.  Is that correct and which direction - clockwise or counter clockwise.  You can see in the photo below that when fully tensioned my handle is up and positioned against a drive pin stop.

finally - the manual indicates that to change belt tension you loosen the collars at the bottom of the support rods that hold two springs against the motor mount.  To me it looks like the tensioning linking locks the motor plate and counter shaft frame together and there is no adjustment beyond that?

The whole mechnaism may be escaping me so if anyone can offer an explanation I would be appreciative.  I'm betting I've got something backwards/wrong in the assembly.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Glad the keys made it to you OK and will work. 

Unfortunately, my underneath drive is on page 34 of the manual, yours is on page 31.  Mine has a lever that sticks out of the RH side of the base.  Tight is away from the operator, loose is toward the operator.  My lever cams the motor base up so the belt can be moved.

You'd think your set up would be similar; use the weight of the motor to hold belt tension. 

Looks like from the parts page you'd start by pulling down on counter shaft bracket 041-111 to get proper tension between the spindle and counter shaft pulley 560-025.  Seems like cam O-244 would end up as you noted in question 1 for full tension on the drive belt.  It looks to me from the parts drawing that the end of the lever O-281 is facing away from the cone pullies instead of toward them as in your pictures.  If you flip it 180 degrees that should take care of the interference to the pin in the upper counter shaft bracket.  It shouldn't matter which way you throw the lever as long as you have clearance to other stuff.  Looks like the holes in arm O-244 and motor base 050-026 are right on top of each other so either direction would give you the same travel.

I'm guessing here, but I think the two collars (DL-259) are adjusted up to load up the two compression springs (O-276) to help lift the motor for belt changes.  Otherwise you'd be lifting the full weight of the motor with the cam lever, the springs on the bottom give a little boost from the bottom end.  I'd set it up by throwing the lever to tighten the belt, then adjust the collars up until the motor/motor bracket starts to lift.  Might be easier to get the position by first lifting the motor with the cam lever, move the collars, then drop the motor and see what you get.  Go too far and the cam lever will start getting hard to throw since you'd be over-compressing the springs.  Just my best guess looking at your photos/parts drawings.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Thabks Bruce - a  umber of your thoughts were things that crossed my mind while staring at the assembly this morning.  I'm going to try some of them this afternoon.  I'm still not sure what the drive pin is for - in my picture above it is on the handle side but after looking at the parts diagram it appears it should be on the cam side so I changed that but right now it isn't actually contacting anything.  I'm thinking it has to be a stop for something like over travel.  The same concept was usd on the tail stock.  I'll update as I try some things.  One thing I did discover is that new belt is 3" too long - Clausing toldme it should be a 44" belt and when I got it tht's what I told the guy.  I looked at it quickly when I bught it and saw it was marked B44.  I looked a little closer today and discovered it is actually a 5L470 (47" long).  A bit of internet looking indicates a B44 is actually 47" long.  I'm going back to the original belt (44-3/4" long - I'm assuming stretch) for any further adjustment/testing)

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

I tried a few things and it seems like everything is working as expected.  The main key was Bruce's comment about the handle positioning - I had not seen that before - lifting up the handle to the operator's left resulted in removing belt tension and dropping it applied tension.  The other thing metioned by Bruce was that the belt tension is maintained by the weight of the motor - I was thinking the cam would lock the tension but it really is locking the de-tensioning.  Finally the drive pin does function as a limiter to over travel when the handle is raised for de-tensioning.

The only problem - actually more of an inconvenience - is that by raising the handle to the operator's left the handle goes behind the cabinet front so you have to weazle your hand between the cabinet and handle to pull it down.  The only fix I see to that is to move the entire under drive frame to the right on the upper pivot bar.  There are two sets of tapped holes for the mounting feet that are two inchs apart (which s probably enough to solve the handle problem) but I think I won't be able to line up the countershaft to spindle pulleys.  The 3 belt counter shaft pulley has a shoulder that limits its travel to the left.  I need to look at that a little more.  Unfortuntely the manual isn't offering any help in this area.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

SUCCESS!!!  I moved the entire under drive to the other set of holes (2" to the right) and now the handle is much more accessible.  The counter shaft 3 belt pulley was very close to the edge of the opening in the chip tray but after some more staring - I found a couple of other adjustments that allowed me to move that pulley back to the left.  I need to wait until the lathe and head stock are installed to tune that alignment but I think I can get it.

On to leveling the cabinet and finalizing the motor wiring.

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Rick,

On the V-belts, there are basically two types (not counting emergency repair link belts).  Light Duty (FHP (Fractional Horse Power), and Multiple V-Belt.  The FHP belt standard part numbers begin with a number between 2 and 5, the letter "L" and then three numbers.  Except for 5 the first number is the nominal width in eights of an inch (5 is 21.32" for some wierd reason).  I've no idea why "L".  The final three digits are the length in inches to the nearest tenth of an inch.  The Multiple type begin with a letter between A and E for a width between 1/2" and 1-1/2", followed by a two or three digit number.  "44" isn't on the list in Machinery's Handbook.  It should be "46".  In almost all cases, the pitch length (not outer circumference) corresponding to the number  is larger than the number.  B46 should be 47.8.  Why, I again have don't know.  Perhaps it is the ID circumference, which isn't given in the table..


----------



## Rick_B

So I ended up buying new half nus from Clausing (couldn't make a reasonable deal with the ebay seller).  The half nuts arrived today - except they aren't half nuts - yet.  They have not been split yet.  Is there a recommended way to split them?  It looks like I could simply saw through them using the thin connection point as a guide?  Make sense?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## 4GSR

You should be able to split them with your saw.  Once split, take a light face mill cut across to remove the saw cut marks.  Also, it might help to bevel the edges of the thread so it will engage the lead screw without binding.  I've had to do this on much larger half nuts on larger lathes in my past.  Make sure they engage with the lead screw properly before installing.  Ken

BTW- Were the new half nuts from Clausing cheaper than those from the eBay seller?


----------



## wa5cab

You shouldn't have received that.  They should have already been split and the flashing cleaned off.  I would call Clausing and speak with Jolene and tell her what you actually received.


----------



## Rick_B

4gsr said:


> You should be able to split them with your saw.  Once split, take a light face mill cut across to remove the saw cut marks.  Also, it might help to bevel the edges of the thread so it will engage the lead screw without binding.  I've had to do this on much larger half nuts on larger lathes in my past.  Make sure they engage with the lead screw properly before installing.  Ken
> 
> BTW- Were the new half nuts from Clausing cheaper than those from the eBay seller?



The new half nuts (with shipping) were about $10 more than the auction list.  In private conversationsthe ebay seller was not willing to deviate very much from his auction list pricing.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

wa5cab said:


> You shouldn't have received that.  They should have already been split and the flashing cleaned off.  I would call Clausing and speak with Jolene and tell her what you actually received.



Thanks - I'll call them today

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Well I spoke with Jolene this morning - she indicated all half nuts they sell are un-split.  She connected me with a technical rep and he explained a couple of ways to split them and also indicated that the split wasn't critical as the flashing web would not interfere with the operation of the half nuts.  I'll give it a try.

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  She must have meant all Clausing half nuts.  I bought a pair for my Atlas last year and they came as two separate pieces.  So I guess I just assumed that the Clausing ones would be the same since they come from the same seller.


----------



## Rick_B

wa5cab said:


> OK.  She must have meant all Clausing half nuts.  I bought a pair for my Atlas last year and they came as two separate pieces.  So I guess I just assumed that the Clausing ones would be the same since they come from the same seller.


An update - I followed the tech guy's first suggestion.  set t on a bench with the pins down and tap it gently on the joint line with a soft mallet.  I tapped it a coule of times and then kind of pulled on it and it came right apart at the joint line.  Nice clean joint with no flash line that will interfere with the half nut opertation.  As usual I made more out of it than it deserved. 

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

OK - time for some home shop creativity .  I'm installing the new half nuts.  The old set had two .005" shims under the removeable V gib.  When I installed  te new set with the shims the half nuts were very loose in the V ways - loose enough that they were closing with their own weight.  So I took the shims out and re-installed - the half nuts were still loose in the V ways.  I can't move the gib any further in because the bolt hole is restricting it.  Comparing the old to new - the new are .035" narrower at the widest part of the V wa so the gib isn't fully tightening down on the half nut V.  I had some .003" shi stock and tried 3 pieces of that between the half nut and gib V way - that seemed to work except it didn't take long for the sliding motion of the half nuts to destroy the aluminum foil shim stock.  I also had some .025" shim stock - that seemed to be more stable but when I tightened the gib down it lcked up the half nuts - even with the .010" shims under the gib.

So it seems that I have two options -find something that can function as a .010" shim and put it between the half nut and gib V or enlarge the hole in the gib to allow t to move in a little further - I'm thinking the hole would need to be 1/64 larger to get the required movement.  Of course the third option is to call clausing to see if the half nuts are to spec - but I'm thinking that is going to have a good ending.

I don't like enlarging the hole - once that is done there is no going back.  I also don't like a shim in the V way - I worry about the sliding motion of the half nuts.  So what are your thoughts about the approach I should take?  Any suggestions on what I may have laying around the house that would function as a .010" shim.  I would prefer a one piece steel shim but am open to ideas versus purchasing a $60 roll for a 1/4 X 3" piece.

Thsanks
Rick


----------



## John Hasler

Buy a cheap set of feeler gages at the auto parts store.


----------



## Rick_B

John Hasler said:


> Buy a cheap set of feeler gages at the auto parts store.




What a great idea - I always miss the obvious .  I actually have 2 sets of feeler gauges so I could sacrifice one of the .010" as least for a test.  The feeler guage is going to be too wide but I think I can trim it down.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

I tried a .010" feeler gauge - still loose.  Then I tried a 014" - still loose.  Then I realized I still had shims under the gib - duh!!. Took those out and the .014" worked great.  Maybe a little tight but after some lubrication and use I  suspect it will be just fine.  I was able to use the feeler gauge as is in terms of width except I did need to grind a radius at the center with a dremel to provide some clearance for the lead screw comng through.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

It's been awhile so I thought I'd give an update.  I've been distracted lately with 2 or 3 other projects but I have founbd some time here and there to devote to the Clausing.  I received the half nuts from Clausing - there were a little smaller in terms of overall width so I had to shim the V on one side but now they are working good.  They are clearly a better fit around the lead screw than the old set - no play at all.  The last piece of the apron puzzle  was the oil fill window - I received one of those from a member here and got it installed with some sealant - we'll see if I need to redo that when I fill with oil.  At this point the apron is complete.












I also found a spot for the lathe to call home so I was able to to get the cabinet in place and assembled.  I rough leveled it with pads that Charlie provided which I milled square and drilled a divot for the leveling screw (3/4-16 hex head bolt through the cabinet feet).  Then I insltalled the chip tray and bed and level the bed using the built in leveling screws provided by Clausing.  That was quite a task - it doesn't take much to change a Starrett machinists level .  I may have to redo that after complete assembly.







So I think that gets me current.  I am working oin cleaning up the gear box internals - casting has been painted.  Hopefully I'll have more time for this in the upcoming week.
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Looking nice!  One comment - you should recheck the bed leveling after about a month and then after that, annually.  Some parts of the country are better about this than others but concrete slabs do tend to move over time.


----------



## Rick_B

wa5cab said:


> Looking nice!  One comment - you should recheck the bed leveling after about a month and then after that, annually.  Some parts of the country are better about this than others but concrete slabs do tend to move over time.



Good idea Robert - I'll do that

Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Very nice job.  I can shoot a picture of my back gear decals (In / Out) and clean them up in Photoshop.  It'd be a *.jpg file that you could either print on paper, laminate and glue in place or maybe try some inkjet decal paper.

Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

BGHansen said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> Very nice job.  I can shoot a picture of my back gear decals (In / Out) and clean them up in Photoshop.  It'd be a *.jpg file that you could either print on paper, laminate and glue in place or maybe try some inkjet decal paper.
> 
> Bruce



Bruce - that would be great - with that I can use water slide decals.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Decal files are attached.  Hope they work for you.  The OD is 0.8" to the edge just outside of the red center portion.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Bruce - sent ya a PM

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Some more progress - I finally got the gear box back together - let's just say I  had a lot of practice putting together and taking apart while I figured out that jig saw puzzle .  I don't have a lot of before pictures but there are a few - followed by the after.




















I moved on to the head stock - and am slowly sneaking up on a few problems I initially put aside so some questions will likely be coming.
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

I started out this morning with three disassembly problems - hoping to solve at least one of them. I was struggling with getting the large gear on the reversing mechanism off - that just required a little soaking in kroil and the courage to use some force with the press so that came right apart. The second problem was the sliding gear assembly - the nut holding the gear in place didn't want to loosen and there wasn't a good way to hold the stud. Again kroil, the vise on the bridgeport and some extra force loosened that nut. Then a press easily got the gear off the stud. Finally I figured out how to get the sliding stud out of the main stud.
I brought up the final problem early is this thread - getting the collet chuck back plate disengaged from the spindle L00 lock ring. I ended up bolting a 1/4 flat bar to the back plate and clamping that bar in a vise. Then a spanner wrench and a big hammer resulted in loosening the lock ring.
So its been a pretty successful day - now I can move on to cleaning up the spindle pieces and parts and getting that back together. All of the gear train/reversing gear parts are cleaned and ready to go - just waiting for some paint to dry. Also all of the covers and guards have been painted.
I'm expecting some additional problems to rise up when I get into the saddle/compound.
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

OK - so I'm dry fitting all of the gear train/reversing gears/covers and discovered that the rear guard on the gear box doesn't line up with the holes.This is basically a flat piece that bolts to the lower left side of the gear box and the head stock.  Before I did my normal "just open the holes a bit snd get them to fit" I stepped back and looked at the schematic again.  It appears there is a shim between the gear box and the bottom of the bed which would effectively drop the gear box allowing the holes to line up.  The problem is I either lot that shim or didn't have one.  I'm wondering if anybody might know the size of that shim?  If I loosen the 3/8-16 allen head gear box screws one turn the holes line up - that tells me the shim needs to be roughly 1/16" - does that logic make sense?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Well I checked with Clausing - the shim is no longer available and no drawing is available.  I found some 1/32 material n the shop and made a shim from that - as expected 1/32 was not enough so I doubled it up which allowed the holes to line up nicely.

In the process of solving this issue I also noticed that there was a 3/16 ga between this guard and where it bolts to the head stock.  this was enough to allow the guard to flex when tightening the bolt.  That made me nervous.  I checked the parts diagram but there was no support block/shim in thst area.  I decided it needed something so I found some 3/16 material in the shop with a clearance hole almost perfectly placed.  So I hack sawed it to rough shape, dd some grinding and filing and painted it.  It woks fine in terms of providing support behind the guard but I'm curious why that gap was there to brgin with.  There is no adjustment that I can see - the head stock is locked in place via a locating pin and the gear box is locked in place by the mounting holes in the bed.  I'm still not sure why the gap is there but until I discover a reason, I think the support block is the right way to go but am open to other's thoughts.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

I thinking ahead a little bit - doea anyone know what the spindle nose taper on a 5418 Clausing with a L00spindle might be?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Based on information from several different sources - it appears the clausing spindle nose taper for the L00 spindle is a 4-12 MT.  When I get home later todsay I'll see if Clausing has responded to my question yet as the final verification. Apparently Clausing offers this spindle sleeve (4-1/2 to 3 MT) but I have also found one from a member of another forum.

Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

I've read that the spindle is a 4 1/2 MT also.  99% sure I have a sleeve/center for mine and can take some measurements if you need them.  I also have a MT 5-3 adapter, can check how well it fits in the Clausing.  I figure the taper angle is what's critical (as long as the nose of an MT 5 doesn't stick out too far).

Bruce


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

No way, no how to put a MT 5 center in the Clausing spindle.  The small end of the MT 5 is larger than the large end of the MT 4 1/2 adapter.  I read on some other threads that they are available from Clausing.

Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Bruce - thanks for the follow up.  I actually found a 4-1/2 to 3 from a guy on the Clausing yahoo group.  I'll let you know how that works.  Clausing has not responded yet to my question but i think there has been enough verification that 4-1/2 is the correct taper.
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Good mroning - in the process of taking apart the compound in this lathe I discovered that one of the T-bolts in the compound rotaion mechanism is stripped.  I managed to get it out but I need to replace it.  I have a question into Clausing but thought I'd check to see if anybode had 1 oir 2 of these as extras that they would like to move along.  It is clausing number DL-475.  I did find a close one at Rocklet but it would take some "reshaping".

Thanks
Rick


----------



## Kiwi

First off nice work Rick. LO  spindle sizehttp://www.lathes.co.uk/latheparts/page9.html  My Colchester is LOO for a spindle bush I got a 5>3 MT adapter and cut the tail off till it fitted I bearing blued the inside of the spindle to check the fit was good it was so it may be the same on yours I have yet to cut the outboard end off. There was a step in the spindle bore that interfered with the fit hence having to keep cutting it down


----------



## wa5cab

Minor point - that's L0 and L00.  A Loo is another name for a toilet, latrine, outhouse or privy.    People commonly make the same mistake with one of the Atlas mill models.  It's actually an M1 (or M1A, etc.).  But often get's written as MI (or MIA, etc.).


----------



## Rick_B

Thought I'd give an update of progress.
Spindle - all of the spindle pieces and parts are cleanded up and ready to assemble - just waiting for the back gear to arrive (in the mail).  Regarding the spindle taper question I had - Clausing never did respond but I got a 4-1/2 to3 MT adapter and it fit very nicely.  It sticks out the end of the spindle a bit but the taper is correct.
Gear Train - All of the gear train components are cleaned up and installed.  Of course I'll have toi take them back out to install the back gear.










Saddle/Cross slide/Compound - All of these components are cleaned up, painted and ready to re-assemble.  Right now I'm struggling with the compound take up nut so there may be questions to come .  I had two problems in this area - the first was a strippped T-nut in the compound swivel mechanism.  Clausing wanted $26 plus shipping for the T-nut so Idecided to try a standard 5/16 X 1" T-nut from Rockler.  It fit pretty well but was a little long so it required some twisting/turning to get it by the access slot and then it was difficult to get back out.  A few passes on each end at the grinder and it fit perfectly and functions as expected.  The other problem I had previously mentioned was getting the nut off  that holds the lead screw in place on the compound.  This required a pin type face spanner wrench that I didn't have.  Thanks to the encouragement here I was able to fabricate one using 1-1/2 X 1/4 flat bar and dowel pins provided by another member (Thanks Andy).  I put a clearance hole that slipped over the lead screw and used a spacer and nut to keep the spanner in place.  Worked very well.




Taper Attachment - 90% disassembled and cleaned up - there is one componet that I may have questions on - more later.  The only problem I ran into was a bent adjustment screw that prevented the screw from easily turing in it's brass nut.  clausing wanted $72 plus shipping for that part - so I decided to straighten it.  It now turns through the brass nut.  If it turns out to be a problem at least I know I can get one from clausing if I have to.
I guess that's all for now.
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Looks beautiful!  Very nice job!  I'm sure you're anxious to make some chips!

Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Time for a progress report - the headstock is complete and covers are installed.  Here's a few before and after pics
Back gear (the large gear is new)








Spindle











and the covers installed













A few minor details remain - I'm missing the bumpers that go on the pivoting spindle pulley cover, the decals for the back gear in and out positions and of course the electrical box.  Also - lots of work to do on the cross slide/taper attachment yet.
Thanks for looking
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Looks really nice.  Bet you're almost hesitant to use it and get it dirty!

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Hey Bruce - yep that first time with oil all over the machine is going to be tough .  I'm in the process of getting the wiring done but needed to order a 18-7 cable for the vfd controls so I'm waiting again.  In the meantime I started reassemblingand tryingto understand the taper attachment. I discivered I am missing afew parts - specifically the bed clamp parts.  I'm guessing it will be a long shot to find them.  I did  send Clausing a message to see if they have them.  Other than that I probably will have a tough time finding them.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Its alive!!!  I got the control station wired up today using an 18-7 cable.  This is an AB station with three switches - all momentary (2 NO and 1 NC).




As I described previously - the control station had a knockout at the top that was not going to be used so I took advantage of that and mounted the potentiometer in that position.  The mounting was pretty straight forward - rubber washer between the potentiometer and inside of the box,  metal washer on the outside of the box and a nut to hold everything in place.  The only obstacle was that the potentiometer didn't come with a standard panel nut and the stem has a M10-1 thread.  Rather than spend time trying to locate a panel nut with those dimensions I used a standard metric hex nut.  It was too tall and I couldn't get the operating know on far enough so I simply put the nut in the milling vice reduced the thickness byhalf with an end mill.
Picture of the control station mounted




finally - I didn't want a bunch of cables dragging around at the back o fthe lathe so I routed them under the chip tray lip and used some plastic spacers with #10 screws through a drilled and tapped hole in the lip.  does a good job of keeping the cables off the floor and out of the way.




I wanted to get the VFD up in the air more but unfortunately what I thought would be enough cable was not even close.
Thanks for looking
Rick who is moving on to the taper attachment


----------



## Rick_B

I haven't spent much time with the lathe in the last week due to chasing around a solution for the taper attachment missing pieces and the unseasonably mild weather that allowed me to catch up with the falling leaves.  However I did manage to get a few things done - apron/saddle/compound/taper attachment installed







I also created a speed chart for various data points between the step pulley settings and the VFD frequency.  I then tested the lathe operationally - it seems everything is working in terms of the gear train, reverse lever and power feeds as well as the half nuts.  I did document a number of areas that I am concerned with - i decided to list them all here in case anyone sees some potential common symptms of a deeper cause.
1.  Speeds are running high at all data points.  In direct drive they are 5 to 7 percent high except for pulley step 2 (next to lowest speed) - that is running 14% high.  In back gear the sppeds are 5 to 12 percent high - again except for pulley step 3 which is running 16% high.
2.  Counter shaft to spindle belts are tight - no more adjustment available.
3.  Spindle pulley has some slight movement around the back gear plunger pin
4.  Noticeable noise/clunk when running with just the spindle pulley - back gear OUT and pulley not engaged to back gear via the plunger pin.
5.  .001" up/down movement of the spindle at the head stock end.  none at the outboard end.
6.  Back gear noisy - I have some adjustment on the gear mesh but am not sure what the "correct" mesh should be
7.  Vibration starting around 650 RPM - enough that i can feel the lathe bed vibrating
8.  Sliding gear hard to move in and out - this has a steel ball/spring detent with no adjustment
9.  Gear train noisy - I have not tried any lubrication directly to the revers gears yet.
A number of the above are probably nuisance issues or the nature of the beast (noise).  My biggest concern is the vibration.
I'm wondering if there is some interaction going on between tight belts/pulley alignment/spindle play.  I know thebekts are tight becasue I am out of movement for adjusting and the belts are very close to the front of the head stock casting where they come up through from the cabinet.
Before I replace the belts (which requires pulling the spindle/back gear and countershaft) I'm wondering if any one has some thoughts on these issues.  The other issues are liveable/can be delayed to a future effort.
Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Rick,

1.  It wouldn't explain the speed in Step 2 (or 3, whichever you actually meant) but what RPM are you running the motor at and are you using the original motor pulley or at least one with the exact same PD?

3  I think that's common.  

4  Do you mean with the spindle not turning and with the pulley spinning on the spindle?

5  Assuming that I am right in assuming that both bearings are Timken, two possibilities are Cup loose in headstock or cone loose on spindle.

6 & 9  Did you apply the recommended grease to the gears?  If the manual gives no clue as to mesh, use a strip of 20# bond between each pair of gears to set clearance.

7 & 8  No idea.


----------



## Rick_B

I've got some additinal investigation to do but just for clarity.  The speed is disproportionally high in different pulley steps.  Direct drive is high in step 2 and back gear is high in step 3.  Not sure if the pulleys are OEM or not - I would say they are based on how close most of the speeds are to the published speeds.  I need to see if I can get to the motor to check the speed (its a 1725 rpm nameplate).  Another possibility is that the vfd frequency display is off a bit.  I'm actually not too concerned with the high speeds because with the chart I created I can easily get to the desired speed.  My concern was more related to if it was a symptom of something else.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Well I did some more investigating this morning.  I wanted to tackle the vibration  issue first.  I was initially running the lathe with a 9" face plate I got off ebay so I decided to see how bad the vibration was with just the spindle.  None - that was good news.  Then I tried it with the 4 jaw chuck - again no vibration.  That made me believe the face plate was out of balance so I put it back on and checked the TIR - a few thousandths.  That didn't seem like enough to cause the vibration issue.  I ran it again with the face plate up to 850 rpm and no vibration.  I can only conclude that I initially had a problem with the face plate mounting.  At this point I'm calling the vibration (#7) a non issue/solved.
My next concern is the spindle bearings.  I was still measuring about.001" play at the inboard bearing with the face plate mounted and lifting up on the face plate.  I changed over to just the back plate for the collet chuck for some noise testing and found that I couldn't feel any movement in the spindle.  The manual indicates that correct preload is measured by giving the spindle a sharp spin manually - it should go one full turn.  I am getting somewhere between 3/4 and 1 full turn.  That tells me the bearings are not too loose - maybe too tight.  Before I go too far in trying to adjust the spindle bearings I thought I'd link a video of the spindle in action to see if what I think is noisy is typical.  Any opinions appreciated.  In the video I am running the lathe at about 650 rpm's with the collet chuck back plate mounted.  Note that the visual is pretty bad - I wanted to get the audio pick up as close as I could to the action




Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

So moving on with my list of issues - I have attached a short video of the back gear noise - I actually think this is not bad and represents the nature of the beast but am looking for other opinions.




To summarize the current status of the issues
1.  High running speeds - not really concerned about this as along as it isn't a symptom of some other problem
3.  spindle pulley movement around the plunger pin - I've been advised this is typical and not a problem
4.  Noisy spindle when running - so far appears to be a non-issue
5.  Spindle movement - no longer seems to be an issue
6.  Noisy back gear - unless someone suggests otherwise this is being considered normal and a non-issue
7.  Vibration - no longer exists - assuming it was related to initial mounting of the face plate and is now a non-issue
8.  sliding gear movement - once the sliding gear is free of the detent ball it moved easily.  I'm chalking this up to the ball detent doing its job and calling it as non-issue.
9.  Gear train noisy - the addition of some lubrication to the gears seems to have quieted it down - non-issue
There is one remaining issue and 2 new ones
2.  spindle belts tight.  This one is confusing me.  The belts that came with the machine had no markings and were cogged but they matched up to a 3L600 nicely except for the cogs - so that is what I got.  The 60" overall length is just barely fitting.  The confusing part is that Clausing indicates that the specified belt is 44" - and that's all the info they have.  A 44" length belt is never going to fit - way too short.  They only thing I can think of is that their 55 year old spec is based on some criteria that today's belt specs don't fit?  I can get the belts from Clausing  for an astronomical price (which I'm willing to spend) but I don't want to invest that kind of cash if there is something available elsewhere.  I also don't want to change the belts unless I have to - that process is like a complete teardown.  Any thoughts on 1960 era belt designations?
10.  Cannot access the back gear shaft lubrication point.  There is a port for oiling between the two gears on the back gear shaft but the spindle pulley and belts completely block access.
11.  When running the gear train with the sliding gear out everything is fine; however when I push the sliding gear in and run the gear train I get a very loud squeal.  I need to do some more work to try and figure out where that is coming from.
Any thoughts on these issues - especially the 3 remaining open issues will be appreciated.
Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Rick,

2.  The oldest Machinery's Handbook that I have with an FHP belt size table is from 1980.  The 1943 edition does not list FHP belts.  However, in trying to put together a list of the V-belts on various Atlas models I have accumulated most of them from owners telling me what was stamped into their as-found belts.  In all probability, at least some of the belts were factory originals and most of the machine models were only made up through 1957.  Some had bearing dates back to before WW-II.  So I would say from this that the FHP belt codes have not changed.  In the 1943 edition, I did come across a formula for calculating required belt length for the heavier industrial belts in the A through E series which I think would also be applicable to FHP belts.

L = outside belt length
D = diameter of larger pulley
d = diameter of smaller pulley
S = shaft and spindle center-to-center distance
/ = divided by
* = times
pi = 3.14159265...

L = ((D + d)/2 * pi) + 2* S

Drop the lower pulleys, measure S and calculate L.  Buy belts half way between.

Maybe the 44" length belt is for the horizontal countershaft bench model.  Whom did you talk to at Clausing?

10.  You are looking at the lube chart for the 5300 Series or reading the instruction on Page 6, which applies to the 5300..  The 5400 chart at the end of the Parts Manual shows removing a plug on the right face of the headstock below the spindle.  Atlas commercials are the same way.  There is probably a ball-oiler hidden by the plug (chart isn't that specific).

11.  Don't know.


----------



## Rick_B

You may have a good point regarding the horizontal drive belt length - I hadn't considered that.  I talked with Adrianne at Clausing but all I gave  her was the belt part number from the head stock section of the manual.  As you know, that manual covers a lot of different cofigurations so that PN may be referring to the horizontal drive.  I have sent a message to a tech service guy at clsusing that has helped me on a few other issues.

Regarding the back gear lubrication.  I saw that note on the parts schematic as well.If memory serves - the head stock mounting holes for the back gear assembly hold the eccentric adjusters and I don't  recall any oil ports there but I'm going to double check that.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Rick,

Look on the right face of the headstock below the spindle (may have to remove the chuck) for the 18-83 "Button" (hole plug) and pry it out of the hole its stuck in.  However they did it from there, that's where the oil for the back gear goes.

The parts lists show both the bench models (through several serial number increments) and the cabinet model (last).  On the bench models, it actually gives the length and that the belt is a "B" section from the multiple v-belt series, so probably a B34 since the numbers are usually about one less than the belt length.  On the cabinet model, the parts list just gives the Clausing number and that there are three of them.  Where did you get the 44" dimension?


----------



## Rick_B

OK - were making some progress - at least in understanding.

As indicated above I initally checked with clausing customer service to determine availability of the 051-014 belt.  They gave me that information and indicated it was a 44" belt.  I moved on and took the belts I cut off the machine when I originally moved it to a belt shop.  They sold me a 3L600 (60" belt).  This morning I sent the question to Clausing Technical Support -Tom responded that the 051-014 belt is a 3L600 and that it is the correct belt for my lathe.  While they seem a little too short for me - they do work so I think I am going to call this resolved - at least for now.

Regarding the back gear oiling.  Below is a picture of the inboard back gear eccentric bushing.  You can see there is a screw driver type slot for adjusting the back gear mesh and that is all.  No oiling point.  I also sent this question to Tom and he responded - "There was a revision done back in 1960 and the ball oiler was added and modifications done to the eccentric for the oil to go through it.".  So that explains how the oiling was done pre-revision.  I responded to Tom with the question regarding how oiling was intended to be done before the revision - unfortunately he doesn't know.




Like many parts - this modified eccentric is not available.  He did send me the print of the modified eccentric in the event I want to modify mine.  Also the oiler is still available.  I'm leaving this as an open issue until I decide if I'm going to modify the eccentric (risky because I don't think there is a replacement) or get an understanding of how oiling was done pre-revision or find a used eccentric that has the oiler.  Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

I don't see how you can get oil past the eccentric other than to go through it.  If you take the belts off of the jackshaft  and move them out of the way, can you see enough of the back gear to see whether or not the oil plug as shown on the bench model is present?  If so, you may have to rig up an extension spout and do it that way until/unless you modify the eccentric.


----------



## Rick_B

wa5cab said:


> I don't see how you can get oil past the eccentric other than to go through it.


 
I agree - I was hoping there was a pathway through the headstock where the taper bearings are oiled but after thinking about it - it doesn't seem physically possible.



wa5cab said:


> If you take the belts off of the jackshaft and move them out of the way, can you see enough of the back gear to see whether or not the oil plug as shown on the bench model is present


 
I don't think so - but I am going to take another look at that.  I n the meantime, Iordered the ball oiler and plug/cover yesterday from clausing - at some point I'll probably do the upgrade.

My remaining issue is more critical. During various stages of testing the drive train and power feeds I noticed a squeal - very loud and irritating. It only occurred with the sliding gear IN. That led me to investigate the mesh/fit of the gear train. It visually looked like the sliding gear may have been rubbing in the IN position so I added a felt washer to it. To get that gear train off I needed to remove the large gear on the lead screw. When I put the gear train back on I tested it without the lead screw gear and had no squeal - SUCCESS or so I thought. After re-installing the lead screw gear I got the squeal back. Now I was thinking the noise occurring with the sliding gear IN was simply a symptom related to speed - the whole gear train/lead screw turn a lot faster in the IN position. That led me to consider the gear box as the problem.
My testing process was to run the lathe in all gear box/sliding gear configurations possible. I numbered the gear box selector lever positions 1-9 (left to right) and started the process of running the lathe with the tumbler in the left, center, right positions with the sliding gear in the OUT and then IN position. I repeated this for every selection lever position. Initially I got squealing at the 9 and 7 positions sliding gear IN. All other data point didn't have squealing. I went back to the higher positions (7, 8and 9) and repeated the test - this time no squealing.
While I would like to claim success and walk away - I think I have a problem just waiting to occur again. The noise (squealing) doesn't really sound like interference. I have never heard a bearing squeal but I starting to believe that is the problem - one of the 5 gear box bearings is turning - either on it's shaft or in the gear box seat.
With minimal effort I was able to get the bearing covers off and discovered two potential problems. The first was a very loose bearing on the inboard side of the primary input shaft. It is VERY loose both on the inner and outer race. I'm thinking some bearing retainer on the inner race. The outer race has washers that retain the bearing but I'm wondering if I should depend on them to keep the bearing from spinning in the bearing seat or if some bearing retainer would be a good idea there as well?
The second problem was with the output shaft that connects to the lead screw via a tension pin. When I got the lathe the hole for the pin was pretty mangled and there was a bent over nail holding it together. In all my wisdom I moved the hole for the tension pin on the output shaft 1/8" towards the gear box. It was/is a perfect fit - so perfect that, when pinned, the lead screw is tight against the inner race of the bearing. I can see some minor damage to the seal as well. That fit can't be good - it seems it wouldn't take much to cause a problem. I can also see some very fine metal shavings on the end of the lead screw and on the chip tray. My thought is to put the lead screw in the SB and face an 1/8" off of the gear box end to give it some clearance. Any thoughts on potential problems with this solution.
Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

This morning I took some steps to address the potential sources of the "squeal".  First thing was to get some shaft retainer on the inboard bearing of the input shaft and get the cover back on that with the retainers.  I decided between the retainers and the large gear on the outputside that the shaft should be pretty stable.

Next thing was to drop the apron and face off a 1/16" from the lead screw - that was enough to keep it off the bearing inner race of the lead screw output shaft.  Cover back on that as well and lead screw re-pinned.

I also found that on the outboard side of the lead screw shaft that I had put retaining rings where the parts drawing didn't call for any.  The retainers just barely fit over the nut on that end of the shaft.  The nut turns with the shaft so there may have been some shifting of the retainers and interference with the nut.  I decided if Clausing didn't think there were retainers needed then I wouldn't put any there.  Cover back on that shaft as well.

So hopefully thise steps will resolve the squeal - I'm going to wait a while before I try i to give the shaft retainer a chnace to cure.  In the mean time - I had noticed that the reversing gear set screw were vibrating loose so as long as it was apart I pulled the reversing gear bracket and put some loctite on those screws.  The reversing gear bracket is mounted in the same hole as the outboard back gear eccentric and when Ipulled the bracket I found




You can see that bushing has a through hole and gives an access point to the back gear shaft for oiling.  Pretty cumbersome to get to that but at least it is a solution.  I did order the oiler and plug for the inboard bushing and will modify it to accept the oiler at some point.

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  I was going to suggest that you replace the loose bearing and if the new one was still loose, install it with LokTite Bearing & Bushing Mount, or whatever they call it today.

The only difference that I see between the bench model and cabinet model headstock is some mounting holes for brackets on the back.  I would have thought that if you disengaged the three belts from the jack shaft pulley and moved one to the right and the other two to the left, you would have almost the same access to the middle of the back gear as on the bench model.  Difference would be the larger center and left pulley groove.

If you try to pump oil into the back gear bore through the left eccentric, it is going to require a good seal on the end of the eccentric and getting past what appears to be a pretty tight fitting shaft.  The late Atlas (both cabinet and bench) is conceptually similar but the shaft is hollow with a cross-drilled hole at about the longitudinal center of the back gear.  And I think larger in diameter.


----------



## Rick_B

agree - i don't like the left eccentric as a oil point - at least with the modifed right eccentric I would have an oiler that sealed and hopefully some of the oil would work its way onto the shaft.  I still need to take a look at the access to the middle of the shaft via moving the belts.

the loose bearing was new - I think the shaft has some wear.  It appears the shaft retaining compound is working - at least I can't move it manually.  Hopefully it will be enough given the relative low speed of the application.

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  Sounds like things are improving.


----------



## Rick_B

After giving the shaft retainer a day to cure - I ran the lathe today and everything seems to be fine - no squeals.  I'm thinking I am at a stage where I can consider this complete - although I still have a number of things to finish.  I still need to - replicate a few decals, clean up the threading dial, clean up the tool holders, clean up the 3 jaw chuck, clean up the sjogbren collet chuck, modify a SB threading stop to fit the clausing cross slide, make/buy a carriage stop and complete the three taper attachment clamp parts.  MNow that I list it isounds like I still have a lot to do .
Today I spent most of time fabricating a T-nut for the QC tool post.  I'm planning onusing an Aloris AXA but the T-nut was too small for the Clausing.  So I got to spend some tramming the bridgeport vise, laying out some dimensions and milling the block to size.  for an experienced machinist it was proibably an hour's job - for me - most of the day but I enjoyed actually using some of the machines.












I've got the tool holders soaking right now so I should easily be able to get them done tomorrow.  After that will be the collet chuck.
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Rick,

Beautiful work!  Too bad you weren't engineering this lathe back at the factory 60 years ago!

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Today I'm tackling the 3 jaw chuck..It is a Burnerd grip tru (or tru grip).  Up thread I was whining about not being able to get the back plate off - well I was struggling with that today until I noticed three socket head screws (not the back plate mounting screws) going sideways into the chuck body.  In desperation I took them out and the back plate essentially fell off.  The "screws" were actually tapered pins with a socket head and threads on one end.




It appears the means bear against bosses in the back plate and allow adjustment (thus Tru Grip?)?  My question is how is that adjustment actually done?
My bigger question is how do I get the pinions out of the chuck body?  They push out a little but quickly reach a point where the pinion is bigger than the hole.  My normal approach is too think about how these would have been put together - in this case I don't know.  Unless after assembly there was some operation done to make them non-removeable?



Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Well I got the pinions out - what I though was too small a hole in the outer chuck body was wrong.  The pinions have a round section that fits in a hole in the inner ring.  With a little bit of pressure the pinion started to move out through the hole in the outer chuck body.  Here you can see the pinion partly removed - the inner hole in the chuck body is barely visible but its there.




I'm still curious about the process for adjusting the back plate.
Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

My 6" Pratt-Bernerd has four of what look like socket set screws equally spaced around the OD of the main body.  And six socket head cap screws holding the back plate to the main body..  I presume that they each bear on one of four (your has three) bosses that are a part of the back plate.  To adjust, you find and mark the high spot, slightly loosen the one or two set screws on the far side, Just barely loosen the six rear screws, tighten the screw or two screws on the high side, tighten the six screws on the rear fully, and check again.  I would assume that yours is done the same except that there are only three cross screws instead of four.


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Robert - based on my understanding of what you said - you are essentially "pushing" the chuck body around on the back plate (the back plate mounting holes are slightly oversized to alow some oment of the chuck).  I'm thinking this is not something you do everytime but rather something that is periodically done using a known standard (ground bar for example)?

One more chuck question - grease or oil?  When reassembling what is the preferred lubrication for the scroll plate, pinions and jaws?  I seen/read cases for both but predominately it seems grease is considered too sticky?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Yes.  As to time, you might make a note of the runout you achieved and with what test piece and check it after a few months.  As a practical matter, I bought and adjusted mine in AFAIK about 1983.  I last actually adjusted it probably 20 years ago.  I haven't had a crash.  If you ever do, you should certainly check it after that.

As to grease or oil, my better 3-jaw has a grease fitting on it for the scroll.  And I periodically use the same SAE 20 (ISO 68) oil that I use most other places on the master jaw slides and a couple of drops around the drive socket with it at TDC.  Same on the lighter 3-jaw although applying grease to the scroll isn't as convenient.  On the 4-jaw  I only use oil.


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Robert - I think I'm going to put a light coat of grease on the underside of the scroll plate and on the pinions.  This area is pretty well sealedup when the chuck is assembled.  I'll use a little oil on the exposed side of the scroll plate and the jaw slides.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

So I've been cleaning up the live center that came with the lathe.  The point was really beat up.  The live center is marked ideal Industries Type S.  I talked to Galco who came up on google as a supplier of Ideal Industries Live Centers - After 10 minutes with customer service they admitted they did offer that line but were only a distributor and this person had very little knowledge of that product.  She pointed me to the technical support group of the manufacturer which is Apex Tool (interesting that I used to work for Apex back when it was Cooper Tools).  I called them and finally got to a technical service phone - they had no clue what I was talking about and weren't convinced they even offered such a product.  They suggested I got bad information and pointed me to Glaco .  That's when I gave up and sent a message to the folks that I found that offer a regrind service for points.  We'll see what they have to say.
Other than the live center I have completed all of the accessories that came with the lathe




After adding up conservative used pricing I think I got the price of the lathe in accessores/tooling - note the taper attachment is not shown.
I have a punch list of 15 or so items that still need to be done - these are mainly the "fine tuning" pieces of the puzzle.
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

So I'm at the fine tuning/asdjustment phase with this lathe - all the things I either couldn't do or didn't want to do until the lathe was completely assembled.  The first thing I'm attacking is adjustment of the threading dial.  I have instructions for a SB thread dial but I think the clausing design is a bit different.  I'm using a criteria aimed at making sure that the dial marks line up with the witness mark when the half nuts are engaged - does that sound right?  The Clausing dial has a set screw that holds the gear that meshes with the lead screw to the dial shaft.  The dial shaft has a screw driver slot on the bottom.  My process was to engage the half nuts and check if the dial marks lined up with the witness mark.  If not I loosen the set screw and, using a small screw driver, turn the dial shaft until the dial mark and witness mark align.  Then I checked that the alignment was maintained for all the dial marks?

Assuming this is correct - is it a good practice to leave the thread dial engaged with the lead screw all the time or should it be swung out of mesh when not threading?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Rick_B said:


> Assuming this is correct - is it a good practice to leave the thread dial engaged with the lead screw all the time or should it be swung out of mesh when not threading?



There are two schools of thought on this.  But it depends upon whether the lathe uses the same carriage feed mechanism for turning and threading or not.  It's my opinion in the former case that leaving the threading dial engaged lets you engage carriage feed with less chance of chewing up the half nuts.  So my threading dial has mostly been engaged for the past 30+ years.  In the latter case, the threading lead screw shouldn't be turning if you aren't threading anyway.  So the question would be moot.


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Robert - bt I'm not seeing the connection between the thread dial engaged and half nut damage.  I'm thinking they are independant of each other and that there is an interlock that prevents using the half nuts and carriage feed at the same time.  I'm probably missing something really silly 

Also - any thoughts  on the thread dial calibration process I outlined?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

I've been thinking about the back gear lubrication issue that was discussed up thread. The basic issue was that there was no good way to get oil to the back gear shaft. Clausing had made a change in 1960 that added an oiler to the inboard eccentric for lubrication. Unfortunately my machine must have been a transition unit and didn't have that oiler. I bought the oiler fro Clausing but have been putting off pulling the spindle to get the eccentric apart for installing the oiler. I decided today to try and get the back gear apart without pulling the spindle - worst case I would have to pull it.

I was able to loosen the back gear engagement shaft on the eccentric as well as the locking collar on both ends of the shaft. That allowed me to slide things around a bit and access the tension pin that tied the eccentric and shaft together. I was able to get that pin out from above and the eccentric then slid right out of the head stock. I drilled a 5/16" hole centered on the eccentric hole for the back gear shaft and installed the oiler. Getting it all back together was simply a matter of sliding the eccentric back through the head stock. lining u the collar and engagement lock and installing the tension pin - it was a snap. It only required 4 hands, quite a few cuss words and a lot of patience but everything is back together and operating as it should.

Another item off the list! unfortunately when I was playing with the thread dial I noticed that the half nut shaft/handle was pulling out of the apron so now I need to drop the apron and see what's going on there. I'm going to replace the tension pin in the lead screw to gear box attachment with a brass shear pin so when they arrive I do both of those jobs at once.

Rick

Rick_B
*Posts:* 2890
*Joined:* Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:45 am
*Location:* Memphis, NY

Private message
E-mail
Top


----------



## Rick_B

This morning I ran across two identical screws (short 5/16-18 with a large screw driver slotted head) that I'm not sure where they go.  I believe they were with the saddle/cross slide parts.  I reviewed all of the parts diagrams and the only place that seems likely is on the back side of the saddle from underneath and just behind the gib.  On theparts diagram the screws for this area are identified as DL-454 (I think).  Is this the right spoace for these screws and, if so, what is their purpose?




Thanks
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Looked over my 5418 and didn't find any screws like the one pictured.  My longitudinal feed rack is screwed to the bed with 10-24 Filister screws.  The only other flat top ones were used on my cross feed and compound micrometer dials until they were replaced with knurled-head knobs.  Just a handful of slotted-head screws on my lathe; wiper covers on the carriage, chip shield under the head stock, catch on the head stock cover, back gear lever bracket, QCGB shaft covers and wiper covers on the tail stock.  Might be a few others I missed.

I attached a picture of my eccentric on the back gear.  Mine has the ball oiler; my lathe is S/N 2219, not too far from yours.  My dad recalls buying my lathe for the high school shop he taught at in around 1961 or 1962.  As an aside the school sadly shut down their shop program in around 1990.  I won the lathe in the resulting auction, didn't know about my dad being the one who'd bought the lathe until I got it home.  I showed him the snap-on cover with the ball oiler behind it, he never knew it existed so my lathe survived high school shop use (albeit they had 4 Clausings in their shop) for close to 30 years no worse for wear. 

I see from the lubrication chart on the 5300 series they have an "oil weekly with SAE 20" on the back gear shaft between the two gears.  Nothing about that spot on the 5400 series chart though it does show my eccentric being oiled weekly along with the two gits oilers on the head stock.  I'd have to guess that the 5300 back gears must be on a hollow shaft with the eccentric running through the middle.  Seems like they'd put oilers wherever there was relative motion between two parts.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Hey Bruce - did you happen to look under the rear of the saddle for similar screws?   On mine , the gib that goes under the rer bed way is bolted to the saddle with two horizontal bolts.  There are also two 5/16-18 holes in the bottom of the saddle that these screws fit i  nicely.  The large head overlaps the gib a bit so perhaps the screws assist in stabilizing the upward movement of the saddle. That's the only empty holes I can find  so that's were they are currently located.

regarding the back gear - i'm almost positive my back gear shaft has an oil hole between the two gears - I just can't figure out a way to get at it without a lot of fussng around.  My inboard eccentric now looks like yours with the oiler. 

Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Mystery solved, your screw goes under the back of the saddle for the gib as you suggested.  Photos of my (lathe) bottom side and one of my screws are attached.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Bruce - another case of a picture being worth a thousand words   I ws going toask how it actually worked but decided to do  a bit more looking.  what I didn't nderstand before is that the screw hole in the saddle is counterobred to accept the head of the screw.  With the head overlapping the gib it is actually provifing an adjustment point for the gib to bed fit.  I didn't see that because I had the horizontal locking bolts tightened before I put in the adjustment screws so the gob didn't move.  It appears there is enough clearance in the saddle holes for the locking bols to allow the gib to move up and down a bit against the saddle.

Did you happen to notice of you had a shim between the gib and saddle?  The parts drawing doesn't show one and I didn't have one when I disassembled.  I haven't actually checked yet if I can get the gib adjusted against the bed and still get the locking bolts installed.  I may need to add some shims between the gib and bed.

Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

Pulled my gib/clamp block off, no shims on mine either.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Bruce - I think I'll start with no shim and see how it works.

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

The manual for Rick's machine shows lubing the back gears with the plugged hole between the gears on the bench models.  On the cabinet under drive models, it shows the ball oiler in the right end of the back gear spindle.  There are two separate lubrication charts for the two versions.

The purpose of the hold down plates is to keep the carriage from being lifted off of the bed and V-rail.  If the factory didn't install shims there, they must have considered the running clearance as not critical so long as it was a positive number and assumed that the weight of the carriage assembly was sufficient under normal circumstances.


----------



## Rick_B

wa5cab said:


> The manual for Rick's machine shows lubing the back gears with the plugged hole between the gears on the bench models.  On the cabinet under drive models, it shows the ball oiler in the right end of the back gear spindle.  There are two separate lubrication charts for the two versions.
> 
> The purpose of the hold down plates is to keep the carriage from being lifted off of the bed and V-rail.  If the factory didn't install shims there, they must have considered the running clearance as not critical so long as it was a positive number and assumed that the weight of the carriage assembly was sufficient under normal circumstances.



Robert - just for clarity - my machine is a cabinet model with underdirve that didn't have an oiler in the inboard eccentric (It does now  ).  I'm assuming my machine was a engineering change transition machine or maybe a factory error or perhaps a later eccentric replacement?

Thanks for the info regarding the saddle back gib.

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Yes, I remember that we thought it should have had the oiler but didn't.


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks to the infirmation upthread i now understand the purpose of the "cheese head screws" and their role in the gib adjustment process.  I managed to get that adjustment done.  I also got the 3 jaw chuck dialed in to .0015" run out.  I've got another problem with the cross slide - it appears to  have some movement front to bck when pushed manually.  Not sure what's going on there but i suspect it has to do with the installation of the taper attahcment and the telescopic lead screw arrangement.  More on that when I have an opportunity to take a closer look.

In the meantime I have a question regarding the QCTP.  I have an AXA size o the lathe and it is a bit short for tool centering.  The lathe came with a spacer block (1/4" I think) between the base of the post and the compound but that is only marginally acceptable in terms of height.  I would like to put a 3/8 or 1/2 spacer in but am wondering about the advisability of using a spacer at all?  Would a sacer impact the functionlity/stability of the QCTP?  As much as I don't want to - should I be considering a BXA post?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Unless you have a zero-backlash cross feed nut under the cross slide, some movement of the carriage is to be expected.  Just be sure that you have properly adjusted the cross feed screw end-float to as near zero as you care to tolerate.

So long as the spacer is the same shape as the bottom of the TP, I don't see why it would hurt anything.  If the AXA is decent quality and you already have a good assortment of holders, I would certainly go with a spacer.  I will say that it is unusual for an AXA to be too short on a 12".


----------



## Rick_B

Robert - I understand backlash is a given and probably more so with a telescopic taper attachment where there is a splinded lead screw.  What I am experiencing is 1/8" movement in the cross slide (forward and back) when I pushnor pull the cross slide by hand.  Thatdoesn't seem correct to me but maybe I am wrong?

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  That's more than the cross-feed screw thread pitch.   So if the screw end float is essentially zero, something else is moving.


----------



## Cheeseking

My guess its probably coming from the back end where the screw connects to the taper attachment.   With my taper attachment installed, the cross slide slop goes up considerably.   Not an 1/8 but enough to warrant removing the special telescoping screw and switching back to the standard fixed one.   Maybe the thrust bearings at the back end of the screw are loose?


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Cheeseking - looks like my taper attachment is completely different - It is an Atlas Clausing model - not a Colchester.  I'll post some pics as I work through it.

Well I got the spacer for the QCTP made and installed - should work fine.
My next step was to figure out what is going on with the cross slide play - I can move it about an 1/8"  forward and back.  I'm going to have to take it apart and see what is going on I think but before I did that I wanted to attack another project.
I wanted to install a cross slide threading stop but they are hard to come by.  I decided I would buy one for a SB heavy 10 knowing it was not wide enough to fit the Clausing cross slide.  I need to widen the dovetail in the stop and then drill and tap a hole in the cross slide.  It seemed I should get this done before disassembling the cross slide because I would need to take it apart anyway for drilling and tapping.
Here's the stop I bought




And its fit to the cross slide - there are two pins in the small section.  In a perfect world the pins should touch the main body at the same time as the dove tail faces make contact.  This is obviously not the case - yet.  Also the hole for the cross slide attachment bolt should be centered on the cross slide.  Again - not the case.




After some measurement I figured I needed to remove just under 1/4" from each side of the dovetail.  I should note that I had a lot of guidance from a member of another forum  (thanks Jeff).  Based on his advice I decided to use a standard end mill to remove the bulk of the waste.




Then I used a 1" 60 degree dovetail cutter to reform the dovetail.  I ran the Bridgeport in back gear at about 300 RPM and manually fed VERY slowly.  Depth of cut was roughly .020".  The milling went without incident except for me figuring out the correct feed direction - I had a second or two of back cutting (sorry Jeff - I know you warned me ) which was not pretty but I got that figured out pretty quickly.




Here's the cross slide fit after completeing the first dovetail - you can see the gap is significantly reduced and the hole is roughly centered on the cross slide.  Actually the hole is about 1/16" off - I didn't realizt that the dovetail cutter was not tall enough and was leaving a small ledge at the top of the dovetail.  It was easy to file that off but by the time I discovered it I had gone too far.




I then proceeded to the small adjustable section and basically proceeded the same way except I didn't do the waste removal step but went right to the dovetail cutter.




And the fit with both dovetails milled - both oins and the dovetail faces are touching




I locked the stop in place and used a transfer punch to mark the cross slide hole position and after applying some layout dye, marked the hole







Now I need to remove the cross slide and compound and drill/tap the attachment hole.  Then I can move ointo figuring out my cross slide slop problem.
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Why did you drill and tap a hole in the cross slide?


----------



## Rick_B

Robert - I haven't drill/tapped the hole yet.  The threading stops that I am familiar with operate using a screw threaded into the cross slide from the front.  The screw slides through the stop.  Whe the cross slide postion is estasblished (primarily used for getting back to the cross slide starting position when threading) the stop is clamped to the dovetail visa a side bolt.  This allows you to back off the tool when a threading pass is complete, move the carriage for the next pass and reposition the cross slide to the original starting point before advancing the compound for the next pass.  The bolt head in the stop acts as a limit for cross slide positioning.

Is there something about the Clausing design that doesn't require that bolt in the cross slide to act as a limit for positioning?

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

OK - I did some investigation today to try and detemrine the source of the cross slide movement.  I found two things.  The cross feed nut was loose in the cross feed body - I tightened the set screw on that to stabilize it.  I also found that the lower slide was loose in the support bracket (see parts list below).  I tightened the set screws to adjust the gib until there is no movement at all in thelower slide.  Those two things got me to about .015" back and forth movement of the cross slide when manually pushed/pulled.

Here's the parts list


I noticed while investigating this that the taper slide block had a lot of movement around center slide.  I think this is contributing to the cross slide movement.  I also noticed that I have about .050" back lash in the cross slide feed.  When I clamp the block down the back lash is cut in half which is about what I expected given the play in the splined feed screw and potential wear of the cross feed nut.  The taper block is actually tilting up some due to the looseness of the fit around the center slide.  This is not a dovetail slide - just a straight wall.

In thinking about this I realized I don't have a good handle on the operation of the taper attachment.  I know the support bracket is bolted to the saddle and when in use the bracket is clamped to the bed so the saddle isn't moving at all.  I also know that you adjust the center slide for the desired taper angle or inches per foot.  What I don't know is what actually happens when in use?  What parts are moving?  I think the taper block slides along the center slide - is that the only moving part during operation?  is the dovetailed lower slide just for positioning?

I asking because I'm not sure how tight a fit I canhave onthe lower slide and the taper slide block.  I think the taper cutting action is the result of the lead screw telescoping out of the the the splined lead screw but I'm not sure of that.  I would like to tighten the gib  on the lower slide to allow no movement and shim the taper slide block to prevent movement thereby improving back lash.  I don't anticipate cutting a lot of tapers so a little exta set up to undo these adjustments when cutting tapers is OK with me.

I appreciate any thoughts you may have

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Well I think I answered one of my own questions.  After some staring and thinking I suddenly realized that it is the lower slide that is clamped to the bed and the saddle slides in its dovetail so it has to be a sliding fit whe using the taper attachment.  I don't think it matters for "normal"use.  I'm still trying to wrap me head aroud how the cutting tool moves at an angle.  More experimentation tomorrow.  Its difficult to test this without the bed clamp parts but maybe I can rig up something for tempory playing around.

Rick


----------



## Cheeseking

The taper attachment definitely adds slop to the cross slide.   I think its the nature of the beast when you add several more connection points each requiring some clearance to function smoothly.   I found the extra slop unacceptable for normal use so I removed mine after trying it out to verify it actually worked.   Fortunately I don't turn too may long slender tapers.  For the most part the compound is sufficient.


----------



## Rick_B

The appropriate cliche seems like "I see said the blind man" - after focusing on the taper attachment today it all finally fell into place in terms of how it works.  The key was understanding that it was the lower slide that gets clamped to the bed - not the support bracket.  I was able to simulate the action and see what was happening.  I think I got it 
As long as I was playing with the cross slide and taper attachment I figured it was a good time to pull the cross slide, remove the compound and drill/tap the threading stop hole.  That went without incident - here's the stop installed




yeah I know - I still need to clean up the layout fluid .
Reassembly went well and gave me an opportunity to actually follow the directions for the taper attachment - what a unique concept.  Once everythoing was installed I had smooth movement of the taper slides and a very limited amount of cross slide movement when pushed/pulled manually - maybe .015".  Backlash in the cross slide is roughly .025" but I've been led to believe that with a taper attachment there will be more slop/backlash because of the added connection points.  I'm going to leave as is for now.
I still need the taper attachment clamp parts - the lower clamp and rod are easy enough to fabricate and the I have a couple of leads on potential sources for the upper clamp.  I still may need to fabricate that as well.
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  I went back and looked at the earlier photos to make sure but I didn't realize that the photos were of the front of the cross slide and not the rear.  I thought that it was of the rear until I saw your most recent photo which shows the apron and compound.  My cross feed stop goes on the rear.


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Rbert - I did see your PM response to me but thought I'd address the issue in this thread for everyone's use.  The cross slide stop is a South Bend part designed for a heavy 10 and modified by me to  fit the Clausing dovetail.  The concept of placing it on the front of the cross slide with a tapped hole in the corss slide is the South Bend design and is shown in the HTRAL manual.  I intially thought all lathes used this front placeent concept but after your comments I decided to pull out my old version of the Atlas HTRAL and there it was - a cross slide stop placed at the rear.  Seems like I learn someth9ng everyday with this lathe.  In any event I couldn't find a true Clausing stop and was able to get the SB part relatively inexpensively.

My goal was to have a meansd of getting back to the correct tool position when threading without having to  compensate for back las.  I think this will work (at least it worked for me on a SB ).  With the taper attachment I don't have any access at the rear of the cross slide and would have to remove the laong chip guard when using the stop.  To me, at least, the front placement is a little more convenient.  Having said that - I will be keeping my eyes ut for a Clausing version of the stop - just to have the original and perhps to give me a little more flexibility.

Again thanks for your contribution to my education and don't give up on me - I'm getting there .  If you think thids was a deviation from norm - wait till you see what I am considering for a steady rest 

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  Normal SOP for OD threading is to run the cutter up to the OD of the part and zero the dial.  After that, if you back the carriage out to return it to the starting position, you just run it back up to zero.  That automatically takes care of any backlash.

Also, I meant to make this comment some time ago and forgot.  I seriously doubt that Clausing intended or expected that if someone had a taper attachment, it would be a permanently installed.  In a normal life, one doesn't cut a lot of long tapers.  I have a taper attachment for my Atlas, and have never used it.  I could sell it as brand new in the box (if I still had the box after 35 years).  Mind you, it is a totally different design than the Clausing one.  To install it, you first remove the cross feed nut.  So you can't do normal operations with it installed.  In the case of your machine, apparently you can.  But lit seems to me that eaving it installed if nothing else must be causing needless wear on some parts.


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks Robert - I agree with your operational steps for threading but it starts to fall apar when  you have to deal with backlash.  Don't get me wrong -  I understand backlash can be dealt with but the threading stop eliminates the need for this - more of a convenience factor.

I also see your point about the taper attachment.  In my case I would need a completely different lead screw and nut.  I'm assuming the dial and other screw attachments would be transferrable.  If I came across one for a reasonable cost I would probably remove the taper attachment but I haven't found much that was "reasonable" in terms of cost for this lathe yet .   I don't anticpate cutting a lot of tapers and I don't think of myself as a high volume user so wear will probably not be an issue.  Like I said though - if you come across a lead screw and nut - I'm in 

Rick


----------



## wa5cab

OK.  You probably mentioned back at the start that the machine came already partially set up for the taper attachment and therefore you didn't have the normal lead screw.  I've slept several times since then.


----------



## Rick_B

Robert's comments prompted me to do a little thinking about the practicality/usefulness of a taper attachment.  The standard CF lead screw and nut for thos 5418 lathe are available from Clausing for $250 - not an outrageous price in my opinion - but signifcant.  My motivation is to reduce the backlasdh (.025") and other related cross feed sloppiness resulting from the telescopic taper attachment connection points and to eliminte all of the stuff related to the tsaper attachment hanging off the lathe.  I see my options as:
1.  Get the new or used CF standard parts and install them.  Keep the taper attachment for those rare times it is needed. I don't expect to have a lot, if any, need for turning tapers but I am a hoarder of stuff I "might" need someday.
2.  Sell the taper attachment to finance the standard parts - this seems inherently wrong (see hoarding above).  I wonder how often I would regret that sale.
3.  Keep the taper attachment installed, forget the standard parts and learn to work with the cross feed sloppiness.

Any thoughts or opinions?
Thanks
Rick


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

I would tend to be the horder and at least hang onto the parts.  I have a Grizzly G0709 14" x 40" lathe with a telescoping taper attachment and have less than 0.010" back lash, maybe 0.005" on a bad day.  The paint is still wet on my machine so maybe I'll get comparable backlash at some time.

Can you isolate the lash between the cross feed handle, cross feed nut and the taper block on the attachment?  I'm thinking if you tightened the taper block so it's solid, tighten the jam nut on the cross feed crank so it's locked, then measure the cross feed lash with an indicator.  Repeat for each spot locking the other two solid and compare the numbers?  If you find the slop at the taper block is 0.003" (for example), no sense taking off the attachment.  You shouldn't have too much "chuck" in the splined cross feed shafts, might check that too.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

Afte comments here and many similar on other forums and sleeping on it I've decided the taper attachment is staying.  Its a nice accessory to have and I would not find another one at a reasonable price in the future.
I did a little more looking yesterday - I think I've changed my mind regarding the source of the backlash.  I checked the free play between the two splined sections by "feel" - it is next to nothing.  So I went back to the cross feed movement by pushing/pulling manually - it moves about .027".  If I take up the backlash by turning the cross feed in then I can't pull the CF back towards me at all.  Same is true in the opposite direction.  This leads me to believe the backlash is mostly coming from the lead screw/nut interface.  At this point I'm going to leave as is and try working with the backlash.  If at some point I stumble across the standard CF screw and nut at a reasonable price I may replace it but still keep the taper attachment.
Thanks
Rick


----------



## Rick_B

its been a bit since I reported any progress - but there has been some.
Backlash - I bought a new CF nut from a guy on the auction site that manufactutres them.  That solved about half the CF backlash.  I still have some issues in both the crossfeed and compound but I've put them on the back burner for now.  I'll work with the backlash until I have some time and cash to pursue other alternatives.  I do realize that zero backlash is not an option without significant expense for technology (or actually a desireable condition) so if you always have to work around backlash then my current condition can wait awhile.
My next effort was to fill in the TS pedestal drawer holes.  I did explore the possibility of finding metal drawers that would fit (either OEM or aftermarket) - as expected no luck.  I decided to make them out of wood.  I think they came out pretty good - although for the effort involved compared to the relatively minimum storage space I probably would have been better off just filling the holes with fake drawers.

After I had the boxes built I realized I hadn't compensated for the splay in the pedestal sides so I had to add a "wedge" on the front of each box.  You can see that in thepictures below.  I still need to add a stop to the drawer and some dividers after I decide what exactly is going in them - probably tool holders, centers, drill chuck, etc.









My next task was the taper attachment clamp - I decided to make the two easier parts (lower clamp and tie rod) - I have some ideas for the upper clamp but I'll put those in a different post.  These two parts got me into face milling, tilting the mill head for chamfering, interrupted cut turning, turning to a given length and diamter and single point threading.  I'll admit that I "got close" with the single point threading and then used a die to finish them up 




I also received A "project" steady rest - broke in two places, a little wide and a little high - none of this was a surprise and  I think it is all fixable.
Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Well, nice looking joinery, anyway.


----------



## Rick_B

wa5cab said:


> Well, nice looking joinery, anyway.



Thanks Robert - I'd like to say  they were hand cut but they are not.  I used an incra jig and router.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

Now that I have the two easier taper attachment clamp parts I decided to start looking at the upper clamp - a bit more complex.  This is the drawing for the part in question - I added a dividing point where it makes sense to me to make two parts and then join them




Then I found this laying around the scrap pile



The arm is a bit long and the hole is oversized but generally speaking it has a close resemblance to the top section in the above drawing.  I reamed out the hole to 5/8" (very poorly I would add) and used some 5/8 bronze bushings to take up the slack of the 1/2" tie rod




Then I made a wood prototype of the bottom section of the clamp - it doesn't have the styling of the casting but it works.




So I'm getting a block of steel to replicate the wood prototype.  The question is how to join the two parts - more specifically how to prepare the joint lines.  My initial thoughts were to mill the appropriate angle on the arm so that butts against the upper block and weld but is that a good joint for welding?  Should I leave the angle alone and use the gap for welding?  Should I leave a gap by milling a smaller angle?  Lots of stuff I don't know about welding and joint preparation.
Thanks for your thoughts
Rick


----------



## 4GSR

I would suggest bolting the two parts together.  I hate to see welding on machinery stuff like a lathe.  My suggesting is making a new one-piece clamp from scratch out of cast iron or aluminum.  BTW- I left a you a message in the Wanted section on your material request.  Ken


----------



## Rick_B

Thanks to a another member I was able to get some material to make the upper clamp section.  Took me quite a while - probably a few hours for a real machinist - all day for me 







And the two parts that will make the upper clamp assembly




I spent today putting together a positioning jig for aligning the two parts.










So now I need to figure out what needs to be done to prepare for welding or if welding is even an option given the fairly small amount of material available.  Any thoughts regarding welding or should I be pursuing other alternatives.  For example I could add a section to the width of the upper clamp body by bolting on - this would give me potentially more contact area.  I would rather not have to do this but will if what I have would not provide an adequate weld area.
Thanks
Rick


----------



## wa5cab

Depends upon how much filler rod you have.


----------



## BGHansen

Hi Rick,

FYI there's a lead screw bed bracket for sale on eBay for a 4800-series lathe.  Might be adaptable to use as your taper attachment clamping part (in case your assembly above doesn't work).  It'd need an adapter to clamp to the bed, just a thought.

Best regards, Bruce


----------



## Rick_B

BGHansen said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> FYI there's a lead screw bed bracket for sale on eBay for a 4800-series lathe.  Might be adaptable to use as your taper attachment clamping part (in case your assembly above doesn't work).  It'd need an adapter to clamp to the bed, just a thought.
> 
> Best regards, Bruce



Hey Bruce - I did see that and thought the same thing - I should know in a few days if what I have will work.  It wont be as styalistic as a casting but should get the job done.

Rick


----------



## Rick_B

I've been fooling with the taper attachment clamp for awhile - well actually my friend Charlie and I have been fooling with it.  At the last report I had the two pieces of the upper clamp ready for welding - the first step was a simple tack weld to check positioning - I should note that Charlie would have preferred no photos of his welds - but after some discussion he is OK with it.  The welds are strong but not pretty.  Much better than I could do 




There was a little twist (from my fixture I believe) so that the top plate doesn't sit exactly flat on the lathe bed but it works.  Once positioning was validated we welded the underside with the arm in place.







Once this was done I milled off the top of the arm where it stuck above the top plate and did some grinding/sanding/filling with JB Weld and then painted.  My paint job on this piece really sucks but I decided that I was going to leave as is versus stripping and starting over










Clamp installed on the lathe




I'm calling the clamp complete and moving on the steady rest - more to come
Rick


----------

