# 12" machinist level



## Aukai (Apr 25, 2020)

Am I going to be chasing my tail trying to use this level? it's already frustrating just trying to get it calibrated. I'm at work, and the building has a wood floor, if I lean, or move so does the bubble. Then I got it to level, turned it, the bubble goes completely buried in the one end. With the adjuster It comes back, flip it, and it buries in the end again. The video I watched for this one is in Chinese....


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## mikey (Apr 25, 2020)

你的意思是你不会说中文？你太无耻了！


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## Joeman77 (Apr 25, 2020)

Well, sounds like you've got one of those fine Starrett 199's (or the Chinese equivalent), congrats on that! They can be maddening. My only advise is to adjust slowly (very small tweaks) & let it settle between tries. Remember, you can't rush precision.
 I once tried to use one to level a pool table & I watched it change reading as I walked from one end of the pool table to the other! And it was setting on 5" of concrete & 12 feet from an outside wall. I can't imagine using in a room with a wood floor!
 Good Luck!


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## Dhal22 (Apr 25, 2020)

I leveled my pool table before I put the felt on with just rolling the pool balls around.   I don't remember the time I spent leveling but it was a lot.


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## Aukai (Apr 25, 2020)

I'll be needing it....I have an Al tray with leveling legs for scaling cars I'll bring to work tomorrow.


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## tjb (Apr 25, 2020)

mikey said:


> 你的意思是你不会说中文？你太无耻了！


I agree.


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## Cooter Brown (Apr 25, 2020)

When Richard King came to my shop and setup the King-Way tool on a grinder table, I stood in front of the king-way and all 10 other guys moved from my left to my right and when they did the levels on the king-way moved in the other direction instantly. This showed us just how much a 10" thick concrete floor can move just from something heavy on it.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 25, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Am I going to be chasing my tail trying to use this level? it's already frustrating just trying to get it calibrated. I'm at work, and the building has a wood floor, if I lean, or move so does the bubble. Then I got it to level, turned it, the bubble goes completely buried in the one end. With the adjuster It comes back, flip it, and it buries in the end again. The video I watched for this one is in Chinese....



When adjusting a precision level, the calibration surface has to be close to level to begin with.  Additionally, the surface should be flat in the region used for calibration. A surface plate would be the first choice.  The bed on a lathe or mill would work.  A table saw surface may work.  Stone or quartz countertops are seldom flat.  When I asked various manufacturers about a flatness spec, the best I could get was 1/8" in 120".  Quartz counter tops are epoxy composites and can and do warp. 

If you have a flat surface, there will be some orientation on that surface that is level. Rotate the level to find that line.  This will be the orientation where the deflection is equal when flipping the level.  Place a straight edge along side the level as a reference and fasten in place.  Place a stop block at one end of the level to reference the position along the straight edge and fasten in place.  Now you're ready to calibrate.  The surface need not be absolutely level as you are looking for equal deflection when flipping the level.

Precision levels have a secondary level for a reason.  For most accurate calibration, the calibrating surface should be level in two directions.


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## Aukai (Apr 25, 2020)

mikey said:


> 你的意思是你不会说中文？你太无耻了！


Do I need my N-95 to read this? 

Well I'll get some practice at work, then re level  the level by the lathe.  In my old age I don't think I can throw it too far when I get upset.


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## DavidR8 (Apr 25, 2020)

I’m Chinese. Send me the manual. I’ll translate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ulma Doctor (Apr 25, 2020)

mikey said:


> 你的意思是你不会说中文？你太无耻了！


我的中文太糟糕了, 我只能通过翻译做中文


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## Aukai (Apr 25, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> 我的中文太糟糕了, 我只能通过翻译做中文


Why are you telling me you have the breath of a donkey???


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## Aukai (Apr 25, 2020)

Mikey's laughing, but he's the one that said"When I look in the mirror, I have the eyes of a gold fish" I learned Chinese from Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory.   
My manual is the translated one.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 25, 2020)

Dear lord...been doing this for hours..just the calibration part! I'm using an Accusize 8". I will say, I have a few things of theirs and I like them...this, I HATE. Does anyone know if there some sort of adjust under the skirt of this thing? In the small chance I have ran out of adjustment in one direction? I'm replacing this POS, but I refuse to believe ins not calibrate-able.


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## Aukai (Apr 25, 2020)

I haven't even started at work today. Mine has a screw on top, that I deemed as just the top of the adjuster shaft. It didn't move anything I could tell. Mine does have access on the side, and an adjustment head with holes for a spanner. That adjustment works too well.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 25, 2020)

That red screw on top does adjust, but it must be 50 threads per MM!..J/k, but it's super fine adjustment. That's sort of why I ask if there is a more course adjustment elsewhere. I'd prefer to have some adjustment left in this direction...I am at the edge! That looks alot like mine, but longer. Must be a clone many companies use? What brand/label does yours sport?


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## Aukai (Apr 25, 2020)

Master Precision Level, I probably screwed with the red screw when the bubble was buried. If yours can't adjust more, you may have to screw it back, find the gross adjustment wheel to compensate, then fine adjust again. If you find access.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 25, 2020)

Mine differs from your in that way. If I take off the 2 side covers off the longest sides, there is a screw on right side and left side. Not sure how screws on the longest sides could change side to side adjustment, may need to fully disassemble to figure it out. I guess this level is like a beater you give a teenager to drive...learning the ropes, you're gonna get some dings. I wouldn't disassemble a Mitutoyo!


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## Aukai (Apr 25, 2020)

Nothing like giving them a try


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## Joeman77 (Apr 26, 2020)

Dhal22 said:


> I leveled my pool table before I put the felt on with just rolling the pool balls around.   I don't remember the time I spent leveling but it was a lot.


Well the place i worked at the time had one that I borrowed, it was a long weekend and a lot of beer! And for what it's worth, looking back I'm not sure I remember some of the time spent leveling mine either, but that was years ago. Lol


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## fixit (Apr 26, 2020)

Joeman77 said:


> Well, sounds like you've got one of those fine Starrett 199's (or the Chinese equivalent), congrats on that! They can be maddening. My only advise is to adjust slowly (very small tweaks) & let it settle between tries. Remember, you can't rush precision.
> I once tried to use one to level a pool table & I watched it change reading as I walked from one end of the pool table to the other! And it was setting on 5" of concrete & 12 feet from an outside wall. I can't imagine using in a room with a wood floor!
> Good Luck!



You should not be walking on the pool table


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## Liljoebrshooter (Apr 26, 2020)

I bought the 8" version.  The ends are just a plastic plug.  When you remove the one, you can then get to the adjustment nuts to use that spanner wrench on.
To get the red screw to move,  there is a  jam set screw on the bottom.
Yes I agree that this thing is a  PITA to adjust.
I have already been trying to figure out how to make some replacement parts to improve it.
Joe


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 26, 2020)

As I was calibrating my machinist level for hours...crawling around on the floor to level the table my lathe is on, then checking the ways on my lathe, I was thinking. It's not that I haven't been down this same exact path before, I've done all these steps before and I always get back to the same road block. When I get things to some similarity to level, the ways are not. The tail stock end of ways are shimmed as to get the test bar collars even diameters when cutting. I would have to removed them, check for levelness and re-shimmed. I guess what I'm getting to is, I have this crazy sensitive level, spend hours getting everything zeroed out, level the table, level the lathe, but at the end, all will be sacrificed to make sure the lathe is cutting true over distances from the chuck. Maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better for letting things pass that weren't perfect.


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## Aukai (Apr 26, 2020)

I seem to recall that just because it's level does not mean it is straight. One of the problems of being new to the "sport" is reading so much you forget some of the things you read. There are rabbit holes you go down, and there are rabbit warrens where you get lost.


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## Aukai (Apr 27, 2020)

OK, my adventure of chasing muthafubbles today. I brought in a leveling tray for scaling the car(4 corner scale) and put a board over the top, and used bullet levels to get it a semblance of level. I tried leveling from a marked spot, flipping back, and forth, trying to get a base line. Then forced the bubble to level, and flipping that back, and forth. My next procedure was turning the level slowly 360* to find a known level direction, and adjusting from there. here is the setup, and the same results all day. My previously leveled digital level from home tells me in every case with the bubble my table is out 0.3*-0.4*. My thinking is I should have been able to get the muthafubble to give me that indication. It will level in one direction, and bury the bubble when flipped, I counted lines, and fudged all kinds of ways with the same result. So is this still pilot error, I'll gladly accept responsibility if it is.


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## mikey (Apr 27, 2020)

Guys, in order to check a precision level, you do not need a level surface. You just put it somewhere flat that allows the bubble to not peg on either end, then flip it 180 degrees. If the bubble ends up in the same position then the level is good to go. 

BUT if you have to *calibrate* it, that is another thing. 

These precision levels are super-sensitive and trying to mess with the leveling screws without knowing exactly what the procedure is will only lead to frustration. To do this without further loss of hair, allow me to shed some light on this. You are going to need a leveling table, a place to put that leveling table on that you will NOT lean on, and a room free of vibration from people walking around or machines running. 

Here is my leveling table. It is just a 12" square piece of plywood with a very flat top and three adjustable screws in a tripod configuration - T-nuts and three 1/4-20 screws with nylon caps on the end. Not shown is a bulls eye level.





I use a small aluminum framing square clamped to this tripod table with small clamps, then I level it with a bullseye level. The square allows me to butt the side and one end of the precision square into a corner, then flip it 180 degrees and get it back into the exact same position. 

Now follow the instructions in the attached document and that will allow you to calibrate your level with a minimum of fuss.

Keep in mind that it may take up to a minute for the bubble to settle so wait until it fully stops before making further adjustments. With these levels, close enough is not good enough. Get the bubble exactly centered so you can trust it. Once this is done, all you need to do in the future is to set up your leveling table and check the bubble position. You will not usually need to re-calibrate it very often, if at all, unless something really throws it out of whack (like a trip to the floor).


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 27, 2020)

@Aukai  Again, mine differs a bit, but are you trying to center between left and right markings? On mine, its more of using, say the right side hash markings, flip it 180* and now your using the opposite side hash marks. Yours is for sure balanced between the left and right side? I guess I'll have to post pictures of mine, but that's why I was chasing my tail. I was trying to balance between left and right side marks, couldn't be done, ran out of adjustment. Does this sound crazy? I really just assumed it was supposed to be centered, but only after I COULDN'T adjust that much I started poking around other things. Take all this with a grain of salt, I, by no means, think I'm 100% right about this!


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## macardoso (Apr 27, 2020)

I own an 8" master precision level from Shars. I have been able to get the bubble centered on my surface plate using the 180 degree flip method in about 3-4 minutes. The center was always in the range of the red adjusting screw. I build a fence on my surface plate with a right angle plate so I know my flip is exactly 180 degrees.

The beauty of the surface plate is even if it is not level to the floor, there is always one axis that is. By rotating the level on the surface plate, you should find an inflection point where the bubble jumps from one end to the other (assuming it is kinda close to being adjusted already). This point is where you should set up to do your calibration of the level. The closer the surface plate is to being level, the easier this is, but it is not imperative to have it done with anything better than a construction level.

These levels need to be adjusted and calibrated to the surface plate each and every time you plan on using it. I feel bad that you got one that isn't easily adjusted out of the box.


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## projectnut (Apr 27, 2020)

I picked up a Moore & Wright 12" machinist's (Engineers) level a couple weeks ago to compliment my Starrett 6" version.  This morning after reading a few posts here I thought I should check the calibration.  I looked up it on the Moore & Wright website and found it's supposed to be accurate to within .0035" per foot.

I gathered the tools necessary for calibration and headed to the shop.  I decided to use the flat way on the bed of the Sheldon lathe as a leveling platform.  Having last leveled the machine about 3 years ago with the 6" Starrett I wasn't sure what I would see.  Fortunately I had a pleasant surprise. 

Not only was the machine close enough level, the new Moore & Wright was also so close to perfect calibration I decided not to fool with it.  According to the new (and old) level the machine is well within what I would consider acceptable limits.  Placing the level in the same position on the way and turning it end to end, I found the machine dead nuts operators side to back side, and less that the width of a graduation line high on the tailstock end.  If every graduation is actually .0035" per foot I would calculate that the machine is .0002" or less higher on the tailstock end.

I don't know if it was dumb luck or skill that I got it that close, and it still remains that close.  If the old adage holds true "It's better to be lucky than good", I'll go with luck explaining how and why it worked.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 27, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I haven't even started at work today. Mine has a screw on top, that I deemed as just the top of the adjuster shaft. It didn't move anything I could tell. Mine does have access on the side, and an adjustment head with holes for a spanner. That adjustment works too well.


The adjustment on my 8" level may be different but here is how mine works.  

Firstly, the screws on the side are not adjustment screws they hold thwe plastic insulating sides to the body.  The red screw on the top is not an adjusting screw. The red is actually a red enamel called Glyptal that is commonly used to lock adustments on electronic and optical equipment.  There is a similar screw on the bottom, actually the other end of the same screw.  

Pulling the end cap will expose the adjustment mechanism.  Basically, the adjustment is locked in place with two opposing nuts.  To adjust, loosen one nut and tighten the opposite nut..   This is done with the spanner wrench that should have been included with the level.  Both nuts should be tight when the adjustment is complete.  

There is no adjustment for the side level.


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## Aukai (Apr 27, 2020)

I'm going to give it a fresh start today. My digital level said I was .3-.4 degrees from level on my surface. I could adjust the knob in the body for the bubble to be anywhere in the hash marks left to right, under compensate, over compensate, do the flip, and the bubble buries it's self in one end or the other. I did find my bullseye bubble level(it was in a safe place), and my machinist jack to use for a tripod instead of the 4 corner adjusters too.


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## Boswell (Apr 27, 2020)

Aukai said:


> do the flip, and the bubble buries it's self in one end or the other.


I don't understand the physics of this. Unless the liquid vile is deformed/defective or the base is not square somehow, I would expect that what ever error you had one way, would show the same error when you flip it around.


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## macardoso (Apr 27, 2020)

Here are 3 video resources that might help you. The first two show the fence method on a surface plate, while the 3rd sorta guesses at it. I particularly like how the first video shows the fence being rotated to show how you can find a flat line on your surface plate, even if it is poorly leveled.


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## macardoso (Apr 27, 2020)

Boswell said:


> I don't understand the physics of this. Unless the liquid vile is deformed/defective or the base is not square somehow, I would expect that what ever error you had one way, would show the same error when you flip it around.



If the table were crooked and the bubble was adjusted way too far to one end, they might cancel out and read nearly zero one way, but add together when the level is flipped around and push the bubble way to the end of the level. 

I agree that when you are adjusted true, the bubble should read symmetrical error on both sides when flipped 180.


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## Aukai (Apr 27, 2020)

I dropped the bullseye bubble on the tray when I came in this morning, I'll fight with it later. I have to check my rig, and a private jet is coming in from America, and I have to screen them on arrival.


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## Aukai (Apr 27, 2020)

I am quite puzzled, here is my photo essay, any suggestions, I'm at work so a drink won't be till tonight.....

Bullseye center



Main bubble center



bubble set to the left of center



Bubble to the right of center



I buried the bubble to the right of center, and brought it back out to half, and this was the result for each flip


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## Aukai (Apr 27, 2020)

Just to add, the internals....
adjuster



pivot


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 28, 2020)

Man, that is exactly what I was dealing with. Again, not saying yours is like this, or mine should be, but the only way I could get SAME readings was to have say 5 lines showing on the far right side, flip it and have 5 lines showing on the opposite side....if this makes sense? (not in dead center) After 2 or more hours (and this isn't my first time going down this rabbit hole) this was my conclusion. No, I'm not done with it...6 more months from now I'll continue on this thread I'm sure. Give her he11 man!!!


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## Aukai (Apr 28, 2020)

It is kinda strange, which ever way I snuck up on it, from ether side, flipping it, it would bury the bubble, usually on the adjuster side as shown.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 28, 2020)

Aukai said:


> It is kinda strange, which ever way I snuck up on it, from ether side, flipping it, it would bury the bubble, usually on the adjuster side as shown.


Do you live in one of those weird paranormal vortexes? I obviously do. Hopefully you figure it out so I can enjoy the spoils!


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## Aukai (Apr 29, 2020)

My new setup is verified level by the bullseye , and the digital level. the digital is 0.0, and when flipped it flashes 0.0 to 0.1 and settles there.
 I am contemplating my mental competence for this operation.
First attempt
If I set the level down, and look for it to find it's self a level alignment rotating 360 it is marked on the glass plate, and flipped. It buries the bubble to my right of center. 
Next,
 I set the bubble level, mark the glass plate, and flip, it buries to the right
3rd
I start the bubble all the way to the right. I bring the bubble all the way past center to the left side one division at a time, and when I flip it it returns full right. I did not go to full left past the divisions.
Start, and always returned here



The farthest I went left one division at a time from the start.


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## mikey (Apr 29, 2020)

Mike, are you using physical alignment aids on the side and end? Can you back up your camera and show use a wider view so we can see what your set up is? None of this is hard but we have to set up correctly. Back up and show us the whole table first.


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## Aukai (Apr 29, 2020)

I went back out the glass has moved for this picture, it was square during the trials. I marked the glass for repeating the flip


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## RJSakowski (Apr 29, 2020)

Aukai said:


> My new setup is verified level by the bullseye , and the digital level. the digital is 0.0, and when flipped it flashes 0.0 to 0.1 and settles there.
> I am contemplating my mental competence for this operation.
> First attempt
> If I set the level down, and look for it to find it's self a level alignment rotating 360 it is marked on the glass plate, and flipped. It buries the bubble to my right of center.
> ...


It sounds like your level surface is not very level.  Precision levels are not linear when you have themwaty out of level so although you making changes it doesen't show up in that orientation.  When you flip the level and adjust, you are seeing a change.  You need to keep going.  

You can a level position on your surface by rotating the level and observing the bubble.  You are seeing a difference when you flip the level.  What you should see at some point is the left side bubble creeping more off center but at some orientation the right side bubble will start to move towards the center.  Ideally, you would want the deflection to be equal but if the level is far out of calibration, that may be difficult to notice.  Nevertheless, this would be a good place to sart the calibration process.  You should see both sides start to come toward the center.  The level is calibrated when the offset is equal and on the same side of center.  The surface is then level when the bubble is centered.

Niether the bullseye level nor the digital level are sensitive enough to insure that you are in the ballpark with your"level" surface with your precision level.  I have both.  I would prefer a good mason's level and I would examine the bubble very carefully, flipping the level and looking for exactly the same position for the bubble.


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## Aukai (Apr 29, 2020)

Carpenter's level, and rotated


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## RJSakowski (Apr 29, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Carpenter's level, and rotated


All three levels are indicating high to the right.  It's subtle with the carpenter's level but the bubble  is not center in either photo.  You need to raise the left side of the surface.


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## mikey (Apr 29, 2020)

My suggestion at this point would be to place two physical stops, one for the end and one for the side. The side should be long enough to register solidly. These stops can be separate pieces or a one-piece square, like a small rafter square. The goal is to be able to flip your level and have it end up in *exactly* the same place. These levels are extremely sensitive so when I say exactly the same place, I mean exactly the same place.

What we are trying to do is to determine if the level is off or the table is off. If the table is off then when you flip the level 180 degrees the bubble will move off in the same direction; then you adjust the table. If the table is okay but the level is off then the bubble will move in the opposite direction when you flip it. Then you adjust the level. So, you must determine which component is off - the table or the level, and to do that you have to have a physical stop for your level and you must have adjustable feet on the table. The bullseye level is just to get you sort of close to start.


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## Aukai (Apr 29, 2020)

Ok, but should the bubble be acting like described, if it is off by only that much. There is no middle ground. Not even close to finding a center on any flip. Be back soon...


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## mikey (Apr 29, 2020)

At this point, how much off the bubble is is not important. Which *direction* the bubble moves when you flip it is.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 29, 2020)

If I understand the process, you don't NEED a flat surface, as long as you can get the opposite direction setting the same? I can see how it would be "easier" to have a flat surface, but with a machinist level...I found there is nothing level in my house! If Aukai gets his, I will have a new sense of motivation! Take your time brother...I'm in NO rush.


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## projectnut (Apr 29, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> It sounds like your level surface is not very level.  Precision levels are not linear when you have themwaty out of level so although you making changes it doesen't show up in that orientation.  When you flip the level and adjust, you are seeing a change.  You need to keep going.
> 
> You can a level position on your surface by rotating the level and observing the bubble.  You are seeing a difference when you flip the level.  What you should see at some point is the left side bubble creeping more off center but at some orientation the right side bubble will start to move towards the center.  Ideally, you would want the deflection to be equal but if the level is far out of calibration, that may be difficult to notice.  Nevertheless, this would be a good place to sart the calibration process.  You should see both sides start to come toward the center.  The level is calibrated when the offset is equal and on the same side of center.  The surface is then level when the bubble is centered.
> 
> *Niether the bullseye level nor the digital level are sensitive enough to insure that you are in the ballpark with your"level" surface with your precision level.*  I have both.  I would prefer a good mason's level and I would examine the bubble very carefully, flipping the level and looking for exactly the same position for the bubble.



I would agree.  The typical carpenter's level has the sensitivity of 40' to 50' (the symbol ' equals minutes of a degree).  A typical circular or bullseye level has a sensitivity10' to 30'.  The standard machinists level has a sensitivity level of 50" (the symbol " equals seconds of a minute).  You are trying to adjust one instrument with another that has less than 1/10 the sensitivity of the one being adjusted.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 29, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> If I understand the process, you don't NEED a flat surface, as long as you can get the opposite direction setting the same? I can see how it would be "easier" to have a flat surface, but with a machinist level...I found there is nothing level in my house! If Aukai gets his, I will have a new sense of motivation! Take your time brother...I'm in NO rush.


A flat surface is required insofar as the surface of the level must engage the same contact points.  If the surface is concave and the level is shifted slightly , you have introduced a tilt.  Cosider a bowl with a level in it.  You will have an infinite number of stable positions, all reading differently.  Worse yet, if the surface is convex, the level won't be stable at all, bno matter where it is placed.

However, I believe that you meant to say level instead of flat and if that is the case, your statement is true.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

New setup, and level, the level is hitting the back, and the left bracket each time. Something is not adding up I'm feeling. Thoughts please...



Bubble softly full right of center/level



full right flip




Bubble softly full left of center/level



full left flip


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

Mike, I am confused. What does "Bubble softly full right of center/level" mean?


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## DavidR8 (Apr 30, 2020)

I’m also confused. 
Is the bubble always at the same end or is it swapping ends when you spin the level 180 degrees?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

I carefully set the bubble at the end, not bury it, both left ,and right.


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

I still don't understand. I think this confirms that I'm stupid but could you show us a picture of what you're describing?


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

I set the bubble to the right side if the scale, then flipped it, and it stayed on the right side of the scale. Moved but returned right, from right

I then moved the bubble manually to the left side of the scale, then flipped it, the bubble traveled to the far right of the scale.

This is with me facing the level, and using the adjuster to manipulate the bubble to my right max travel, flip, then left max travel, and flip. I flipped it on each end to see the reciprocal effect. It should have switched ends when flipping it correct? One didn't, or am I that confused now?


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

Can you place your level like this precision drawing? Put it in place so it is touching the round rod and the right angle thing and let the bubble settle, then take a picture of the bubble. Then flip it 180 degrees and let the bubble settle and take another pic of the bubble, then post pics of the bubbles.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

I just added the picture....do you want it centered? it will shoot to the right when flipped... this is the result of centering, and then flipping


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

Okay, you're saying the long side of the level is up against the right angle bracket and the end of the level is touching the round rod, right? If so, then the picture immediately above is taken in this position, right? And you're saying if you flip the level 180 degrees the bubble is in the same position as it is in the above picture?


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

No you asked for center, this is 180* flip. If I move the bubble from center manually to the right, all the way to the end of the tube, and do a 180* flip, it will return to the right side of the tube. If I manually move the bubble to the left side of the tube, and do a 180* flip, the bubble will rest on the right side of the tube.
Always set to the right angle bracket, and against the round bar.

If I did do your procedure above, yes it will return to the right.


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

What I'm trying to determine is if the table is off or the level itself is off. 

Okay, let's do this. Put the long side of your level against the round bar so it is touching along it's entire length. Then make sure that one end of the level is simultaneously up against the right angle thing. Take pic of the bubble position in the vial with the level in this position; don't touch anything yet. After you take the pic, flip the level 180 degrees and put it back in the same position it was just in and take another picture. 

If the bubble in the first instance is to the right of center and it is also to the right of center after you flip it then the table is off and needs to be adjusted. If the bubble is off to the right in the first instance and off to the left after you flip it, the table is okay but the level is off and needs to be adjusted.

Try that and we'll pick it up tomorrow. Going to sleep! Good night, Mike.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

When you get up, where do you want the bubble to start, it has been adjusted all over the map so far. Good night.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 30, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> A flat surface is required insofar as the surface of the level must engage the same contact points.  If the surface is concave and the level is shifted slightly , you have introduced a tilt.  Cosider a bowl with a level in it.  You will have an infinite number of stable positions, all reading differently.  Worse yet, if the surface is convex, the level won't be stable at all, bno matter where it is placed.
> 
> However, I believe that you meant to say level instead of flat and if that is the case, your statement is true.


I guess I mean just flat. If, let’s say the counter top had a 1* tilt to the left, flipping the level, you would want both sides to show that 100% accurate? From videos I watched, they would have a couple steel plates to make sure their positioning was exact, but they didn’t have a surface that was 100% level IF I MUST find something perfectly level, I can say my house isn’t built true enough to calibrate. I guess I could put something together to calibrate on that is level, but I need a sensitive, calibrated level to make that surface.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 30, 2020)

Aukai said:


> New setup, and level, the level is hitting the back, and the left bracket each time. Something is not adding up I'm feeling. Thoughts please...
> 
> Bubble softly full right of center/level
> 
> ...


What you are showing is why I went ahead and calibrated the only way I could...not in the center, but only one side of level. When flipped, I COULD get the same readings... I COULD NOT get the same readings if I were using the center. Eagerly watching this develope!


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## RJSakowski (Apr 30, 2020)

If the bubble is to the right both times, your surface is too high to the  right.  You need raise the left side of the surface.  When the bubble trades sides and has the same offset, the surface is level.  Then I would adjust the level calibration to center the bubble.  Once you have centered the bubble, go back and recheck the surface.  If everything is done correctly, the bubble should be centered both times.

You can level with an uncalibrated level as long as you are within three or four divisions from level. Past that and you enter a nonlinear section of the vial.  You can calibrate with an out of level surface, again, as long as you are within three or four divisions from level.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

Guns, the table Mikey showed us has tripod adjustable legs, and you can get the level set there. YOU can, but it seems to be problematic for me  
Thank you RJ, I'll get my morning routine done, and hit it again. The digital level goes through 8 steps of calibration with flipping, and rolling which I have had better luck with. It has a liquid level internally, I'm going to get out my analogs too.


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

Aukai said:


> When you get up, where do you want the bubble to start, it has been adjusted all over the map so far. Good night.



Morning, guys. 

Mike, I simply want to know where the bubble is when you put the level in place on the table. Right now, your level is probably way out of calibration because you adjusted it. That's fine, we'll fix that, but what I want to know is if the leveling table is off or not. If it is, then we adjust the table until it is level. Once that is done, we'll adjust the level. None of this is hard, honest, but we need to proceed in the proper sequence or we'll never get it done.

So, from post #63, please do this:

_Put the long side of your level against the round bar so it is touching along it's entire length. Then make sure that one end of the level is simultaneously up against the right angle thing. Take pic of the bubble position in the vial with the level in this position; don't touch anything yet. After you take the pic, flip the level 180 degrees and put it back in the same position it was just in and take another picture. _

Please take the requested pics so we can decide what the state of the table is. If it is off then we'll just adjust it, which should only take a few minutes. I await.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

The level is on the bar, pushed against the bracket



1



1 flip


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

I don't have enough room on the box for the 4', and 6'


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. The vial shows the bubble moves to opposite sides when you flip it. That means the *leveling table is level*  and the level itself is off calibration. So, don't mess with the table and focus on adjusting the level adjusters from this point.

It is hard to know how much the level is off because the bubble is pegged so you'll have to move in stages. Orient the level so the front of it is facing you. That is, the cross vial is on your left and the printed specs are on the right. This will be the only position the level will be in when you make adjustments, okay? We'll call this the FRONT.

I cannot tell where the bubble is when the level is oriented as above but say it is moved all the way over to the left. This means the left side of the level is high. Adjust the screws inside the level to lower the left side (or raise the right) of the vial. Make an adjustment and set it back on the leveling table and see where the bubble ends up. If it is still pegged to the left, keep going until the bubble is no longer pegged. When this happens, you are very close so slow down. Take pics with the level facing front and with it flipped 180 degrees. Then we can decide how much you need to adjust it to bring the bubble into the center.

We are making progress, Mike, so stay with me.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

I have been playing while waiting moving the bubble out from the left slowly. When I'm out in the adjustment divisions, I left the adjustment, and flipped it back, and forth 3-4 times. The bubble never repeated it's starting position.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

setup



1st position



1st position flip



return


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

Keep the level facing front and keep adjusting until the bubble moves toward center, then stop and take pics.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

2nd adj



2nd adj flip



2nd adj return to start position, no alterations, just put back in the tray.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 30, 2020)

This just keeps getting weirder....


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> This just keeps getting weirder....



Not really. Just means we're getting close. I would guess you're within a fraction of a turn from being there. The trick, if there is one, is patience. The bubble can take a full minute or more to settle and you can't touch anything until it does settle. Place the level in the front position and adjust it close to center and let it settle. Then flip it and see where it ends up. You are adjusting until the bubble is NOT PEGGED in either position. Once you're there, we can precisely adjust it so get there and take pics.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 30, 2020)

So, just so I can have my ducks in a row here...
We don't KNOW the surface he is adjusting on is perfectly level (he has no other machinist level that are known to be 100% calibrated) he can't expect both directions to be "perfect", but off the same amount, in the same direction when flipped?
Even though he is close at one side, but quite off in the other direction, he is "close"? "Fractions of a turn"?
It's just synchronicity as I was doing the same exact thing, with the same oddball results as when Aukai was doing this. I'm just hoping to get some learning from his jouney.


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

The table might be off a fraction of a degree but the level is off more so we need to focus on the level. These things are so sensitive that an almost imperceptible adjustment will move the bubble. We just need to be patient and work at it until the bubble centers. I've done this numerous times and have been able to calibrate the level every time so we are going in the right direction.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

It pegged, waiting for the front to resettle.


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## projectnut (Apr 30, 2020)

I realize this is a brand new level, but have you ever placed a straight edge across the bottom just to be sure it wasn't grossly damaged before you got it?  Even a minute amount of damage could be causing your problem.  I would place a straight edge against the bottom and hold it in front of a light source.  If you can see light between the straight edge and the level you'll know it's damaged.

The reason I say to check for damage is because I've been in a situation where  someone dropped a level and put it back in the box without telling anyone.  Myself and another coworker spent the better part of a frustrating night attempting to repair and relevel a machine.  We must have disassembled, shimmed and reassembled a machine section at least a dozen times and could never get it level.  We were at our patience end working through multiple shifts when one of the facility mechanics was assigned to give us some assistance.

The first thing out of his mouth was "Do you really trust that level?"  When we asked why he told us the story about how it had been dropped.  With the new information we once again set it on the machine.  It was painfully obvious that the readings were completely different depending on how it was placed on the machine.  We spent another couple hours attempting to calibrate it before we finally gave up.

We bought another level which if memory serves correctly was in the $250.00 plus range and completed the job by the end of the shift.  In this case the hard lesson learned was to make sure the level is in good shape, and properly calibrated before attempting to use it.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

I do not have an official straight edge, but I have used the rule from my SS combo square, it was flat, and I did a "scrape" across the bottom too, to check if there were high spots. All good there.
Running out of real estate



Flip


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## mikey (Apr 30, 2020)

Mike, adjust the level so the bubble is not pegged in either position.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

Last right bubble



last right bubble flip


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

All variances peg to the right on the flip
Full left bubble flips hard right
full right bubble stays hard right
The tray is still level.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2020)

I really did walk 5 miles to school in the snow UP HILL BOTH WAYS.....

I did another check but in reverse, maxed the adjuster so the bubble was full left, and it went full right on the flip. bottomed the adjuster on the threads. Today's exercise
Next I ran the adjuster, and compressed the spring to the top. The bubble was full right, and went left on the flip. hooray, I thought.

I started running the adjuster back down, and got motion on the flip, back side facing me left to right, with the front facing me it stayed pegged to the right.
Back, and forth moving the adjuster down the threads, the bubble moving to center with the back facing me, still pegged right facing me. I did very small incremental adjustments, and when the bubble/level facing away from me moved over to the right. Both the front, and back facing me stayed to the right. I hope this makes sense, I'm fried.
Same outcome, but reciprocal?


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## mikey (May 1, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I really did walk 5 miles to school in the snow UP HILL BOTH WAYS.....
> 
> I did another check but in reverse, maxed the adjuster so the bubble was full left, and it went full right on the flip. bottomed the adjuster on the threads. Today's exercise
> Next I ran the adjuster, and compressed the spring to the top. The bubble was full right, and went left on the flip. hooray, I thought.
> ...



I read this, word for word, 6 times and cannot understand what you're doing, Mike. 

There will be a point where the bubble will move towards center. It will not be on center but it will move towards it. When you flip the level, it will also be somewhat towards the center. This is what you're looking for and you have to make tiny adjustments and wait a while for the bubble to settle before making more changes. When the bubble is no longer pegged to one side or the other but is somewhere in the middle, take pics. 

If we cannot get this done, send it to me in Honolulu and I will calibrate it for you.


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## Aukai (May 1, 2020)

I was afraid I was talking gibberish. In one plane the bubble moved, but the flip buried back. The adjuster on the threaded shaft( the pukas) was bottomed all the way down to up, then tried opposite from all the way up to down. That is where I had to do the mirror effort to see effects. There should be somewhere it cooperates, but I have not found it. Sorry you adopted a dummy


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## mikey (May 1, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I was afraid I was talking gibberish. In one plane the bubble moved, but the flip buried back. The adjuster on the threaded shaft( the pukas) was bottomed all the way down to up, then tried opposite from all the way up to down. That is where I had to do the mirror effort to see effects. There should be somewhere it cooperates, but I have not found it. Sorry you adopted a dummy



I'm beginning to wonder if it might not be the mechanism they use. I agree that there should be some part where it cooperates but you are no dummy, no Paramedic is, so I'm wondering if it isn't you. Hence, my offer to give it a shot. 

Maybe we should give it a rest and try again tomorrow. I promise to stay with you until we get it.


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## Aukai (May 1, 2020)

It's mechanics, and physics. Even I don't believe I walked to school in the snow up hill both ways.


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## Dabbler (May 1, 2020)

I have read the entire thread, carefully, and I'm more than a little confused.  Rather than stir up anything and meddle, may I aska  request so I can follow a little better?  

The exact location of the bubble down to the nth isn't important to get this solved, as that part is the easy part.  How about showing the level, and the table it is sitting in, for each photo going forward:  you can highlight the bubble ends by editing the picture if you like to make it clear.  In some of the pictures, it seems to behaving as expected, and others, it seems impossible....


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## Aukai (May 1, 2020)

The leveling process



the table



the level




The side with the adjustment port is facing me, flipped is 180*
Today all adjustments were from my left to right, with me facing the level, adjustment port facing me.
Every adjustment moving the bubble from the left, toward center, the bubble stayed buried to my right on the 180* flip.
This pattern followed moving the bubble from the left, all the way to the right extreme division by division. At no time was I able to get the 180* flip out of my right hand parked position. It ran there from wherever the point was
The bubble seems fixated on staying on my right hand side of the level on the 180* flip. I'm at a loss...


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## RJSakowski (May 1, 2020)

Aukai said:


> The leveling process
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The surface is not level. Put some shims under the left side and watch the bubble shift.


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## Dabbler (May 1, 2020)

I've been assuming that you have been using the level correctly all along.  Please don't be offended if I take it back to first principles...

Unless you are very close to dialed in on your surface, you need to get close.  How you get close is to take a lesser level and level your table.  You then take a machinists level and determine which side is low.  Use a shim to get it within, say 5 thou per foot.  then set up a dial gauge and raise the low side by the required amount. 

as long as the level is pegged, you don't have anything to work with.

One day you might want to buy an engineers' level, which is usually rated at 4-6 thou per foot/div to get to where you can calibrate your more sensitive one.  Yours is more like .6 thou per foot, which is why you are having so much trouble. There are other ways, but you'd have to buy a surface plate first.

-- oh and don't think the glass is flat.  unless it is'optically flat' it will have ridges and valleys of greater than .003 per foot all over the surface. One of my friends tried to use 'plate glass' (which is said to be ground flat) to his peril.  all of his measurements were off, and he was chasing demons for a month before he used my surface plate.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 1, 2020)

I do believe this is basically a simple process, and you must have a lot of patience. (I have to add, that picture with like 13 levels on it is hilarious!)
Why YOU are having this problem and mine is exactly like it, makes me go hmmmmm... There has got to be more to it. I'm gonna pull mine back out this weekend, I could use hours just sitting at a table barely moving. I'll add some sort of marking to the top of mine so its easy to distinguish when its flipped. I do hate to ditch the adjustment I have now, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be calibrated to the opposite end, rather the center. I'm basing that on everyone else's, assuming mines the same. As Aukai can attest, It doesn't feel like it. One correction, mine is HHIP not Accusize, maybe that's part of the problem? We'll see.


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## middle.road (May 2, 2020)

I've been busy trying to reign in the shop and doing Honey-Dos and of course, repairing vehicles and haven't been on much.
Over my first cuppa I picked this thread to catch up.
Holy cow, I hope mine are calibrated. What an adventure.
(the following is meant in jest...)
Are you sure that your leveling plate is clean and that there aren't any grains of sand left over from the beach laying on it?   

Are 3-point leveling jig (like in @mikey's) is easier to tweak in than a 4-point.
Something is off kilter here - twilight zone. That level seems to be possessed. This isn't making any sense.


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## Aukai (May 2, 2020)

HAHA, nope, checked for sand. Every video, all the instructions I have read say the flat surface does not have to be absolutely level, you can adjust for it.  My level is more sensitive over it's length than I can dial in my flat surface. So now do I really need the aggravation of this much sensitivity? The ocean is looking really nice from my house this morning. 
I appreciate all the help I have gotten with this too, it's very nice to know how willing people are to give guidance. There are several occasions when I have looked at this contraption, and said to myself " I got your level right here" (Think a Michael Jackson move) 
Dan the tripod is a snap to level, I guess I should say I think.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 2, 2020)

Got my wife doing it now after 3 hours fighting  with mine!


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## Aukai (May 2, 2020)

I looked at mine, the resolution is .0002in over 10". I'm looking to see what the other types are.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 2, 2020)

I have mostly disassembled mine as IN ONE DIRECTION, I was out of any more adjustment. I found 2 screws (one on each side at the opposite side of where the vial pivots) you screw them out and vial drops, in, it raises. It gave me more adjustment, but same thing, dead on center one way, 180* and it favors one side. Tried splitting that difference, but it will always heavily favor one side. It really makes no sense. Is it possible with all the hours (6-8?) just this time around AND Aukai doing much the same, that something is WRONG with both our levels? We have watched many videos, fine tuned the he11 out of our level surfaces. We've gotten all kinds of help from this forum.... I am ready to throw in the towel. For my mill/lathe, my digital level is good enough.
I know its probably futile, but I even put a DTI along the vial to see if it was matching what was happening. Getting it level that way has no difference in result. I'll stop jumping in here, Good luck Aukai, I'll still be reading this thread. Go enjoy that beautiful playground you live in!


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## Aukai (May 2, 2020)

Please stay here, a lot of good coaching in one place I think with all of the leveling I/we have been doing, the comment was made that the table is not level enough. I looked at my level, and the resolution is 0.0002in/10in, per the legend on the level. My take is that my table level is outside of the .0002in/10in for my level to be adjusted. To get in the adjustment window, I would have to make the bubble levels off kilter. That is what I'm interpreting from one of the comments. I hope someone can set me straight.
There is a nice Sterrett 98-8 on Ebay, they are .005 per foot.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 2, 2020)

Well, hopefully you can answer this, but lets say your table is off perfect level, by say... .002 over it's length. You shouldn't NEED that much perfection (?) I've seen plenty of videos of people zeroing it out, just making sure that amount of error is equal both directions. I've been down this road (and I believe you as well) Say one division off one way (and this matches more/less the error on table) but the other direction it's a train wreck. I'm just trying to add less as it's a bit chaotic as it is...making popcorn and tuning in regularly however!


Aukai said:


> Please stay here, a lot of good coaching in one place I think with all of the leveling I/we have been doing, the comment was made that the table is not level enough. I looked at my level, and the resolution is 0.0002in/10in, per the legend on the level. My take is that my table level is outside of the .0002in/10in for my level to be adjusted. To get in the adjustment window, I would have to make the bubble levels off kilter. That is what I'm interpreting from one of the comments. I hope someone can set me straight.
> There is a nice Sterrett 98-8 on Ebay, they are .005 per foot.


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## Aukai (May 2, 2020)

See Dabbler's response above, I may be interpreting it wrong.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 2, 2020)

Aukai said:


> See Dabbler's response above, I may be interpreting it wrong.


I did read it before as well, but that is disappointing. They are SO sensitive that you really need something in the same ballpark of sensitivity (and accurate) just to get a surface level enough to adjust. As I have only been doing these maneuvers all day long and thinking bout it in between, here is where I can make it add up as to why we are having these problems...
If our surfaces are say .001" low on the left, we effectively raise the vial that much on one side. Remembering that table is low .0005" on left side and .0005" HIGH ON THE RIGHT. Now we rotate the level and that vial we just raised on left side is now on the right and remember, that side of the table is .0005" high...we have just combined those two errors on top of each other. SO we are level on one axis, but (for a level of such sensitivity .0005" per 10") it's way off in that rotation. Yes? No? Maybe? 
The world is in shambles with Covid...I don't need this ulcer. I'm going to use the techniques the Egyptians used to make the pyramids, I just saw a youtube about it!


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## Aukai (May 3, 2020)

I think that is the gist of it.


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## Dabbler (May 3, 2020)

OK let me be clear.  On a .005 div per foot level, you can level a surface to around a thou per foot quite nicely. (If you can't read a quarter division, you need better glasses).  This is plenty flat enough to calibrate a .0002 level.  I've done it 3 or 4 times for people.  

Fact is, an engineers level with .003 to .005 per foot  /division is plenty for any machinist.  those super sensitive levels really aren't useful, except on freshly surface ground surfaces.  Even a spec of dust on you surface can render it off scale.  The glass is NOT flat enough to do a good job.


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## mikey (May 3, 2020)

Tell you what, guys. You do not need a surface plate to level a precision level. The table you use simply has to be flat and it has to be able to be leveled to the world (ideally with a tripod adjustment) and it has to sit on a solid surface that you do not lean on or touch. That's it. This is not rocket science or magic.

Basically, you have a precisely curved sealed vial filled with liquid and a bubble. One end of that vial will usually be the adjustable side and the other side will hinge. That's all there is in there.

The basic idea is to level the table with a bullseye level first. This will not get the table perfectly level within a millionth of a degree but it will get it close enough to do a preliminary adjustment of the precision level (PL). Let me tell you what I do and I'll make it as simple as I can.* I am assuming you have a flat table with three adjustable feet* - two feet on one edge and one foot in the middle of the opposite edge. The table should be at least a foot square and it *must be flat*. Plywood, Melamine ply/mdf will work. If you don't have such a table, go make one. If you choose not to then you're wasting your time.

Put a small framing square or two flat pieces of something a precise 90 degrees to each other on the table and clamp it in place. This will be used to precisely flip the PL 180 degrees and reproduce its position.
Then use a bullseye level and get the table level. Get the bubble as dead center as you can.
Determine one orientation for your PL that will be the primary position. In Aukai's instance, we called this the Front. Put the PL in this position so the long side and one end touch your orienting brackets or whatever you chose to use.
Look at the bubble of the PL and note its position, then flip the level 180 degrees and note the bubble position again.  There are only 4 possible outcomes:
The bubble is dead center, in which case the table is level and the PL is calibrated.
If the bubble moved to the same side when you flipped the PL, the table is off.
If the bubble moved to the other side when you flipped it then the table is okay and the level itself is off.
It is possible that the bubble position will be aberrant and not consistent, in which case both the table and the PL are off.

It appears that at least in Aukai's case, the last outcome is what we're dealing with. To address this, knowing that the table is at least roughly level because your bullseye level says it is, you start by adjusting the level to get it to the point where the bubble is not pegged or buried at either end. Then you adjust the PL until the bubble moves to the same side when flipped. This allows you to finely tune the table so turn one of the table adjusters until you get movement and repeat the flip procedure. Adjust the level and the table position until you get the bubble centered when flipped.

This is the only possible way you're going to get the PL calibrated. At this point, you have touched the PL adjusters so you don't know where you are so you'll have to go through this until you get it adjusted. 

I know you guys are frustrated but none of this is hard. You just have to be patient and persist until you get it adjusted. I've done this multiple times and haven't yet failed to get one calibrated.


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## Aukai (May 3, 2020)

I got rid of the glass, I'll be moving to a less sensitive level, I'm glad that you pointed this out, it makes sense now why it was being a challenge. Thank you for adding to the discussion, I did not consider that, that resolution was adding to the situation, never even thought about it until I stared at the numbers. Having the knowledge confidence to deal with it is experience, working on that....Tilting the table out to get the bubble to respond,,,, never thought of it. Thank you guys for sticking with this.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 3, 2020)

I guess this thread lead me to realize....I have a Chinese (Grizzly) lathe and a Chinese (PM) mill. The tolerance they are made at is slop compared to what the level can detect. WAY overkill. I will get a better setup to level this damn thing, when I need that time to just sit and focus, I will pull this thing out again. So what is a far more realistic level (less sensitive) to get? I keep hearing a Starett, but I also read they have seriously dropped off from what they were. I don't want to end up with 3 of these children of satan....
Thanks everyone for all the pointers!


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## Dabbler (May 3, 2020)

The level I use is the Moore and Wright ELM engineers' level.  It has a resolution  of .0035 inches per foot A description can be found here.

The Starett 98-8 or 98-12 are just fine for any machine setup. They are good to .005" per foot.

I should add that the only machines in my shop that are level are my metal lathes.  That's for convenience of getting close to bed alignment before the 2 collar (or 'dogbone') test.


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## mikey (May 3, 2020)

No disrespect meant but let me offer another perspective on the utility of precision levels. I move my lathe at need and have helped move and level my friend's lathes more times than I care to remember. I use a Starrett 98-6 for preliminary leveling only and use a Kinex precision level to do the precision leveling. The difference between the two levels is speed.

A Starrett 98 is not very sensitive. If you put it next to my Kinex and move the surface enough to move the Starrett bubble one line, you will peg the bubble on my Kinex to one side. If you level the surface with the Starrett so the bubble is centered, you might get the Kinex to approach center, maybe. This relates to speed in that to do a final level you will need to do a 2-collar test. If the lathe is sorta level with a Starrett 98, it can take literally hours of test cuts to get close to level and I'm not joking. You'll cut, adjust the one leveler, cut, adjust, check the bubble and find it hasn't moved, cut, adjust and so on. Eventually, you settle for close enough is good enough. I'm not making this up; this is from personal experience and it is why I own a precision level. 

With my Kinex, I am usually one or two cuts away on a 2-collar test from being dead level. That means zero difference between the two collars.

The difference is speed.


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## Dabbler (May 3, 2020)

I  do agree with what you said:  My technique differs, and with my 3.5 thou per foot/div  level I get pretty close, and my '2 collar' is usually in the range of about .002.  I'll get more practice this month as I am rebuilding my 15X60 and moving all 3 lathes to new locations in my shop...

I find fiddling with the precision level (Mine is .00025 per foot/div) takes me as much time as doing the last bits in the 2 collar.  Just personal preference and using what techniques are comfie for us.  

My tagline used to be "put 10 machinists in a room and you'll have 20 ways to do something"


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## mikey (May 3, 2020)

Thanks, Dabbler. 

About a year ago, I finished adding 300 square feet to my shop so now my lathe sits in one place. For years prior, I had to move that lathe if I needed space. Since it is on leveling casters, I just moved it and re-sited it afterwards. I had to level and calibrate it every single time and I cannot begin to count how many times this happened. I own an Emco Super 11 and it is capable of great accuracy if I take the time to level it well. Having a precision level greatly sped up the process, which is why I am convinced that these levels are worth the time it takes to calibrate them and then learn how to use them. 

Here is one example of the 2-collar test results I took for an article I wrote. The lathe was leveled with my Kinex level and the 2-collar test was done to finalize it.




As I recall, this sequence took all of 10 minutes to do. 

I meant no disrespect. I just wanted to make it clear that there is a clear utility to these precision levels.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 3, 2020)

mikey said:


> No disrespect meant but let me offer another perspective on the utility of precision levels. I move my lathe at need and have helped move and level my friend's lathes more times than I care to remember. I use a Starrett 98-6 for preliminary leveling only and use a Kinex precision level to do the precision leveling. The difference between the two levels is speed.
> 
> A Starrett 98 is not very sensitive. If you put it next to my Kinex and move the surface enough to move the Starrett bubble one line, you will peg the bubble on my Kinex to one side. If you level the surface with the Starrett so the bubble is centered, you might get the Kinex to approach center, maybe. This relates to speed in that to do a final level you will need to do a 2-collar test. If the lathe is sorta level with a Starrett 98, it can take literally hours of test cuts to get close to level and I'm not joking. You'll cut, adjust the one leveler, cut, adjust, check the bubble and find it hasn't moved, cut, adjust and so on. Eventually, you settle for close enough is good enough. I'm not making this up; this is from personal experience and it is why I own a precision level.
> 
> ...


Let me ask this, @mikey Would you use the Starrett to get the table that the lathe is on, close, then use the Kinex to get it dead on? From there (and this is where we probably differ), I would then do a collar test and adjust twist in the bed. To me leveling the lathe on the table which is level is just quadrupling the work. Again, for me, as long as the table is level and the lathe is cutting dead on, I'm happy. I tried to level the ways on a level table and I was chasing that for a long while, just to change it so the collar test was acceptable.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 3, 2020)

mikey said:


> Thanks, Dabbler.
> 
> About a year ago, I finished adding 300 square feet to my shop so now my lathe sits in one place. For years prior, I had to move that lathe if I needed space. Since it is on leveling casters, I just moved it and re-sited it afterwards. I had to level and calibrate it every single time and I cannot begin to count how many times this happened. I own an Emco Super 11 and it is capable of great accuracy if I take the time to level it well. Having a precision level greatly sped up the process, which is why I am convinced that these levels are worth the time it takes to calibrate them and then learn how to use them.
> 
> ...


@mikey so loosening the the front foot a 1/4 turn, I'm going to assume SOMETHING wasn't level when checking after operations were over?


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## mikey (May 3, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Let me ask this, @mikey Would you use the Starrett to get the table that the lathe is on, close, then use the Kinex to get it dead on? From there (and this is where we probably differ), I would then do a collar test and adjust twist in the bed. To me leveling the lathe on the table which is level is just quadrupling the work. Again, for me, as long as the table is level and the lathe is cutting dead on, I'm happy. I tried to level the ways on a level table and I was chasing that for a long while, just to change it so the collar test was acceptable.



My personal approach to leveling is to use the Starrett 98-6 on the cross slide first. I remove my compound and use the 98-6 to get the cabinet pretty level in X and Z. Once the cabinet is pretty level, I use a machinist's square to site the 98-6 so it sits in the center of the cross slide and square to the X-axis. Then I adjust the  levelers under my lathe to get it square on top of the cabinet. I level it at the chuck end, then the tailstock end with the 98-6. Then I switch levels and put my Kinex square on the cross slide and repeat this process, again using the levelers under the lathe. Once this is done and the lathe is level according to the Kinex, I lock the lathe down to the cabinet and confirm the level has not moved. Then I move on to a 2-collar test.

When I do a 2-collar test, I usually use the levelers under the cabinet to tweak the final level. The ones under the lathe are too sensitive and it changes when I tighten them to lock the lathe down so I use the cabinet levers instead. This works well and is much faster for me to do. It is surprising how much the cabinet can influence the lathe but we're talking tenths here. For what its worth, this is how my process has evolved. 

I have done many trials to hone this process down to its simplest form, mostly in self-defense. From start to finish, if I am very lucky, I can move my lathe and get it level in less than half an hour. Typically, I do not have to level the lathe on the cabinet. I can usually just level the cabinet and run a 2-collar test and get it done quickly but if I have done heavy work on the lathe then yes, I may have to adjust the lathe levelers, too. Then it take a little longer. 

I normally check my level every six months as part of my semi-annual maintenance routine so that precision level is an important part of my kit.


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## mikey (May 3, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @mikey so loosening the the front foot a 1/4 turn, I'm going to assume SOMETHING wasn't level when checking after operations were over?



Let's make sure we're clear on what level means. Using a precision level to get the lathe "level" simply means the bubble is dead center when you're done. Since my level is sensitive to 0.02mm/M, level is pretty damned level BUT it is not dead on level. No spirit vial is level to the tenths over the length of the lathe. To get the final leveling done, a 2-collar test is about as mandatory as it gets. The 2-collar test allows us to dial in that last bit of resolution we need to make us feel comfortable that the lathe is as level as we can get it.

You can ask anyone who has leveled a lathe before. The ability to simply dial in a lathe to tenths tolerances by turning a cabinet leveler is a big deal.


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## Dabbler (May 3, 2020)

Agreed with you on the tenths thing.  

No offense taken.  

It's just that I haven't used my precision level  (.00025 in/ft/div) in about 10 years.  I do everything the same as you, but I'm using a level with a little more resolution than the Starret 98, and so I get to skip the one step.


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## mikey (May 3, 2020)

I should add that a well-leveled lathe will change over the ensuing two weeks or so. It may be dead level today but two weeks from now, it will not be. It may take another tweak on your levelers to re-level it and then it will usually stay put for a while. If you do heavy work or do a lot of roughing, things can move. You need to check your level if this happens and you should also check it from time to time to make sure the lathe retains its accuracy.


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## Dabbler (May 3, 2020)

I agree.  After moving I suggest checking a week, a month and 6 months after.


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## Tozguy (May 3, 2020)

mikey said:


> The 2-collar test allows us to dial in that last bit of resolution we need to make us feel comfortable that the lathe is as level as we can get it.



If the work you are turning is the best indication, what does checking periodically with a high resolution level reveal that the dimensions of your work piece do not?


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## mikey (May 3, 2020)

If I detect a taper that is significant, leveling it with the level first is much faster than trying to dial it out with a 2-collar test.


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## GeoffO (May 3, 2020)

This is an intense thread.

perhaps a laugh?


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 3, 2020)

GeoffO said:


> This is an intense thread.
> 
> perhaps a laugh?


I'm sure its a bit rough for Mikey, but I don't think there are any hurt feelings anywhere. Not speaking for Aukai here, but trying to explain levels that a gnats hair can throw into a tailspin, IS rough for both sides. This has been a lesson in how incredibly tight tolerances can be in machining. I thought I got it.... I didn't. I need to start at a lower level of accuracy, this is not where I'm at yet. My table that my lathe SITS ON TOP OF is level (ish?) My lathe passes the collar test at .003 difference. I'm gonna stay here for now...and get a less sensitive level of course!


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## Aukai (May 3, 2020)

I had not realized that there was a vector of level, and the standard level is a gross representation of "level". My collection of bubbles, and needles are in the 5 pound short handle sledge hammer realm of "level". My CHEAP .0002 level is in the jewelers hammer realm of "level" , and I need a persuader that will connect the gap. Accuracy is a challenge for me, if it fits it ships. Learning to come in on size means something now, and trying to get there is frustrating. It will take seat time to learn. My tool height bar came in at .906 on a .910 "0" + or - tolerance, that .0004 is not going to grow back on


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## mikey (May 4, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> I'm sure its a bit rough for Mikey, but I don't think there are any hurt feelings anywhere.



Nope, no problem on my end. Dabbler already knows I have nothing but respect for him, always will. 

What is frustrating for me is that there is nothing actually difficult about this level calibration thing. It's just setting up carefully and turning an adjuster. Leveling a lathe is also not difficult if approached methodically but that whole thing was a digression. 

I was trying to make this simple but it seems to have gotten much more complicated than it should have been.


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## graham-xrf (May 4, 2020)

mikey said:


> I was trying to make this simple but it seems to have gotten much more complicated than it should have been.


[Sigh!] I only just came across this thread, and it has still 5 little squares of past postings to click before I get through it all. It has explored the leveling deal to the limit of what can be done with bubbles on glass. What to do if the thing you are working with shifts about just because you walked across the room, or did six weeks of heavy rough cuts?

I get it that true level is a beast to get right, and _has_ to be addressed, because the stuff we turn/mill _will_ show the effects, depressingly confirmed by the double-ended test bar taper test. It leads me to ask..

1) If you have leveled (say) across the ways at a headstock, and the tailstock is supported in the middle on a third point, and you check level at the tailstock end, and you discover it is out, does that mean there is a true twist that has to be scraped out? Can you just deliberately set the supports to "untwist" it?

2) Suppose you adjust from under the whole lathe supports (4 points this time), and you tweak away until it is all level. Have you really left one support with zero or some little force under it, and in effect set up force to "untwist"?

3) If you do tweak on the leveling supports, do the twists and bends from the forces you set up take the iron out of shape immediately? In 5 seconds? In 10 minutes?

4) Suppose the machine has been "out of level" for ages, and has been turning tapers. Then you set the level to what looks correct. Has the iron "taken a set" ? Did the twist become permanant? If not, how long does it take to "relax out"?

I am embarrassed to ask these questions. In my recent work, I have used absolute encoders and electronic clinometers which work between 50 and 400 milli-arc seconds, but I still don't know how the restoration fine piece of semi-steel lathe bed from mid previous century is going to behave. I am getting it that my shop/outbuilding/shed/man cave (early construction stages) had better have concrete under it, and if a wooden floor, then I had better cut through and set blocks down to substrate.


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## Dabbler (May 4, 2020)

@graham-xrf  Well you have identified a bunch of factors affecting lathe bed twist, which is great.  It signals that you understand that these questions are just the beginning of the things that affect lathe bed twist.

To address your main points:  A solid foundation is essential if you are trying to get a consistent and accurate two collar test, else the world will shift and put your lathe out.

The world of accuracy has to be tempered with acceptability.  Chasing tenths on the 2 collar when the lathe only weighs 800 lbs is like shooting a firearm at a target 500m away with a loose barrel.  On my smallest lathe I only go for .002 on 12". On my  bigger, heavier lathes that would be the beginning.

Now if your primary hobby is to rebuild the lathe and chase the ultimate precision, have at it.  I like making parts, and even with a curvy lathe bed it is possible to do good work.

Most of the previous thread was diagnosing the calibration of an ultra sensitive level, which did not suit the intended purpose and current skill set of the owner.


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## graham-xrf (May 4, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> @graham-xrf
> Most of the previous thread was diagnosing the calibration of an ultra sensitive level, which did not suit the intended purpose and current skill set of the owner.


Thanks @Dabbler . You get it immediately what I was after. I never had a problem with calibrating. Finding the line that is level on a flat surface by rotating the level is easy. Turning the level through 180° and set back against the line provides enough. It can be used like that, if you keep in mind the offset. Or, you can start tweaking to get the bubble centered if it isn't already. I have three levels. The best is shown in the picture. The other two are lower cost Chinese with aluminium body. All are 0.02mm/m or about 4 arc-seconds). I need to get at least one a bit less sensitive.




What you say about the size/strength of the machine in relation to the accuracy it can hold is interesting. We come to the question of whether the machine simply "rests" on its supports, as opposed to gaining strength/rigity from being anchored solidly onto bigger stuff.

Starting with a lightweight machine, and by your guideline  of 800lbs, mine are definitely featherweight, it will have some intrinsic strength to maintain it's shape even if just plonked down on  a level surface.

It gains a whole lot more if it is hard bolted to "A" frame or other steel structure hidden in the bench under it. If the final anchor to the floor is by Lewis bolts, or resin-anchors into concrete with steel mesh and some rebar, the lightweight machine has become a heavyweight, and if the steel between it and the floor is designed right, it can also become a very stiff thing. I would not bother to go to such lengths. The accuracy(s) you mention are quite enough for my level of skill. Even so, any place I am going to bolt down a real machine is not going to rely on a springy set of floorboards!

The bench, if wood, has to be substantial, laminated, stiff, and of good design. I would not trust a lathe set down on a wooden bench that was not at least capable of having a level read the same from day to day, if set down against the same pencil line. As for floor. If it is wood, then consider at least setting the machine down on it's own strong single board, and perhaps putting some strategically placed bricks between floor and _terra firma_.

In some ways, the bigger and more mighty the castings, the more one has to pay attention to the huge force effects of it's self-weight. I would guess that setting up "level" again when the machine has been working "bent" might look OK only for a short while, as the iron "un-distorts", and you may have to keep doing it over in smaller increments until things go stable.

Maybe someone with experience of having his iron distort from getting out of level can say what happens when he tries to get it to "go back".


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## Dabbler (May 4, 2020)

@graham-xrf I don't want to hijack this thread, but to design a stand to do what you want, you need to think like a bridge designer, with the goal to minimize strain (deflection) not strength.  It is pretty tricky. As you said, sometimes beefier just means more steel, not any sturdier. Ironically, strength is not important - wait for it - If you design for minimum deflection, it will be more than strong enough.....

My first lathe stand (for my 12X37, 800lbs), before I understood how to make it stiff, did the job okay, because it was intended to be used on a concrete floor.  It was 2X2 by 3/8 angle iron forming a square, with 1" thick pads (for bolting the machine down) welded to them, and 3" X 3" by 3/8 legs that formed flat topped "A" formation.  the long side had 2 4' diagonals of 1"X1" by 3/16 angle forming about a 48X30X24 triangle.

BUT that structure wouldn't do what you suggest. It has to be so rigid that if you lift any one leg, the other diagonal legs will be lifted without sagging _appreciably_. Wood, a topping material, would do okay, but not as the structure.  Just a few thoughts.....

You could build a rim base, a box however high out of 10 gauge steel, with a appropriate mounting system.  However to stop it from 'racking' you would need diagonals in both directions as well.  As I implied earlier, it is very hard to build a rigid structure for lathe based weights.

--that is why we accept 'limp spaghetti' stands, and make the bed planar through various techniques, including leveling and the 2 collar test.  That is also why we need to recheck for straight after moving a week, month and several months after.

-- one last point:  the lathe is also culpable in this.  If it has been twisted for a while, it will take time to relieve its twist.  So you over twist it to get planar, then it 'relaxes', and over twists, and it is now bent the OTHER way.  I've seen it a lot.


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## mikey (May 4, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> [Sigh!] I only just came across this thread, and it has still 5 little squares of past postings to click before I get through it all. It has explored the leveling deal to the limit of what can be done with bubbles on glass. What to do if the thing you are working with shifts about just because you walked across the room, or did six weeks of heavy rough cuts?
> 
> I get it that true level is a beast to get right, and _has_ to be addressed, because the stuff we turn/mill _will_ show the effects, depressingly confirmed by the double-ended test bar taper test. It leads me to ask..
> 
> ...



Graham, correct me if I'm wrong but is the situation that you have an old lathe that you are restoring and you are concerned that it may have some bed twist and you are not certain you can get it straight and level enough to be functional?

Dabbler has already given you a lot of valuable insights but I'll try to add some opinions.

You would think that a lathe must have a solid connection to the earth if it is to be leveled and accurate but perhaps this is not entirely true. I have a Sherline lathe that weighs all of 32# or so. It has a mild steel bed set into a cast aluminum base and that base sits on a 3/4" thick Melamine ply base set on 6 rubber feet. To level it, I put aluminum foil shims between the aluminum base and the plywood and it has maintained its level for about 30 years, despite me carrying the lathe back and forth from its storage location. This lathe can cut a taper-free work piece over 4-6" and with my shop-made live center, it can turn much longer pieces without any significant taper. And it can do it to a 1-1/4" piece of steel or aluminum. 

So, what does that say about solid mounting? I believe that if you can solidly mount the lathe to the ground then the more solid the connection, the better. However, the lathe can still be made to be accurate if it sits on a base that is rigid enough, even if the base itself sits on a less than solid support. IOW, if the lathe must sit on a less than solid surface then focus on making the support the lathe does sit on as rigid as you can possibly make it and you should still be okay.

Insofar as to whether or not you can untwist a bed that has been twisted for years, I believe you can. Iron, especially cast iron, moves, and it moves more than you might think. Metal can take a set but given enough force, it will move again. I say this not from a metallurgy background but from an experiential one. I have helped to level lathes (10-13") that were made in the 1940's that had been sitting for decades. Even though it took several tries to get it to resettle, they did so and we were able to level them just fine. All the lathes I am referring to sat on their own cast iron stands and those stands were sitting on solid concrete so that helped but they still moved enough to be leveled fairly easily. Now, you have to accept that the bed will not untwist in one go. It can take a preliminary leveling to get it as good as you can, then another session to get closer and then repeated every few weeks until it behaves but it will get there. I would definitely not scrape anything in an attempt to level the lathe; you will only destroy that lathe.

I think the heavier the lathe, the easier it is to level it and have it stay level. That does not mean a light lathe cannot be leveled with great precision; it can, but it takes a bit longer to settle. As evidence, I give you my Sherline and the thousands of smaller hobby lathes out there. Nobody will ever convince me that a light lathe cannot be precisely leveled.

I also believe that a level lathe is much easier to work with. If the lathe is not level, it produces a taper. If that taper is acceptable to you then fine but if the only thing that stands between having a taper-producing lathe and an accurate one is leveling the lathe then it makes sense to me to level the damned thing. For my lathe, the difference between accepting a few thou of taper and zero taper is usually a few fractional turns on the leveling pads; why would I not take the time to do that? This is where that precision level comes in. It allows you to get to the point where you can quickly do a 2-collar test and a few tweaks to the levelers and be done with it.


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## graham-xrf (May 4, 2020)

mikey said:


> Graham, correct me if I'm wrong but is the situation that you have an old lathe that you are restoring and you are concerned that it may have some bed twist and you are not certain you can get it straight and level enough to be functional?


Yes indeed, you have that exactly right, except put that in the plural. One SB9 is working, but has the more worn ways. The other was in a pile of bits, but I have picked through them all, and I found everything was actually there. The bed had been laying on it's side under the motor for who knows how long. If a lathe is actually apart, it is likely for a good reason. Maybe only for a paint job, but I was not going to simply put it together without at least a measure-up and decide. Getting to a starting point where I can properly discover if there are problems, especially I where I did not have solid experience, is what prompts these questions.

My apologies if I have inadvertently diverted the thread. I thought that this issue was related and relevant. Levels have a job to do on machines, and I don't think folk get into extremes of levels technology with only love of levels in mind (do they)?

@mikey


> You would think that a lathe must have a solid connection to the earth if it is to be leveled and accurate but perhaps this is not entirely true.


OK - I get it now. A lathe, especially the bigger heavier ones, can hold it's working parts in the right place relative to each other so long as it's mounting points are level, and unable to move about in that level plane. The bed is put into the same state it was when it was planed.  The example of putting a lathe (Sherline) on a base that is on rubber feet, but lathe can be leveled shows that a bench under can be of wood or anything you like , so long as it is strong enough stay still and keep the supports in the same place day after day. Bench nor floor does not have to supply stiffness, just level support,



> Now, you have to accept that the bed will not untwist in one go. It can take a preliminary leveling to get it as good as you can, then another session to get closer and then repeated every few weeks until it behaves but it will get there. I would definitely not scrape anything in an attempt to level the lathe; you will only destroy that lathe.
> 
> I think the heavier the lathe, the easier it is to level it and have it stay level. That does not mean a light lathe cannot be leveled with great precision; it can, but it takes a bit longer to settle. As evidence, I give you my Sherline and the thousands of smaller hobby lathes out there. Nobody will ever convince me that a light lathe cannot be precisely leveled.



Definitely not going near scraping unless it needs it for reasons of wear. If the situation is there is definitely a twist, and it's a light lathe like SB9, I would likely attempt to "speed up" the getting back to normal by temporarily loading it appropriately. The unworn tops of the ways will do fine as reference if I just assume they were level when the bed was made. So far, I have confined my "restoration" to parts around the edges, and now, I have put all aside to get into construction of 18' x 12' outhouse/shop/shed/man-cave/viral_pestilence_hideout.

I thought if I  "hung" the bed vertical from one end, and set it ringing now and then while I get the shop together, it would maybe find it's own way back to the state it was when it was made.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 4, 2020)

Man! I hate to bring this back to the original situation...but @Aukai  I have a dumbed down way to get it dead nuts on. Remember, I gave up & tore mine apart. I replaced the crappy adjustment screw with an Allen, other than that, it’s all on the jinky way I brought it in to calibration.
If your DONE...I definitely get it, but this took me about 2 hours, & the 1st hours was just the same old chasing my tail, the last hour it move close & closer, removing that imbalance between left & right flip. 
Holy cow what a load off!


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## graham-xrf (May 4, 2020)

@GunsOfNavarone : That is great! Really well done. Seal up the adjuster with a drop of wax, or hot-melt, or nail varnish (yes - it's OK to raid any lady's kit for a cause like this), and know that this level now has an added value hard to match from any supplier. For you, it has arrived at a status of TRUST.

You don't have anymore to be persuaded by advertisements, nor reputation, nor a huge hit on your wallet. You know what it can do, and you know what it took to make it so.


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## Aukai (May 4, 2020)

Great to hear, glad it came around. I'm not done yet


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 4, 2020)

@Aukai  I think (I know mine) was far too out of calibration to use a level table to try to hit on center. On your flat surface, adjust the level until its lightly hitting the end of the vial either side, to where it seems to have less gravity working against it..I know, wonky. Then using a tripod table (I built one in 10 mins and it even had a SLIGHT bow to it!) Now using the ADJUSTABLE TABLE LEGS, move the bubble until it's closer to center (not on center) flip it and use the adjustment screw and split that in half, flip it, use the table legs and again (split it) Never try to get dead center, just keep splitting a few times. Now level you table (just close ish) and go again. Literally about 6 or 7 shots, I saw how close it became. When you re-level the table, make sure you get the small perpendicular vial reset as well. I can promise you'll get the quickly this way. I was actually going to pull the vial and trash the whole thing yesterday!


Aukai said:


> Great to hear, glad it came around. I'm not done yet


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## Aukai (May 4, 2020)

I certainly know that feeling. Thanks for the tips, very useful when I get back at it, I'm working the airport, don't get home till 2200 ish


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## graham-xrf (May 5, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @Aukai  I think (I know mine) was far too out of calibration to use a level table to try to hit on center. On your flat surface, adjust the level until its lightly hitting the end of the vial either side, to where it seems to have less gravity working against it..I know, wonky. Then using a tripod table (I built one in 10 mins and it even had a SLIGHT bow to it!) Now using the ADJUSTABLE TABLE LEGS, move the bubble until it's closer to center (not on center) flip it and use the adjustment screw and split that in half, flip it, use the table legs and again (split it) Never try to get dead center, just keep splitting a few times. Now level you table (just close ish) and go again. Literally about 6 or 7 shots, I saw how close it became. When you re-level the table, make sure you get the small perpendicular vial reset as well. I can promise you'll get the quickly this way. I was actually going to pull the vial and trash the whole thing yesterday!


Now as I read this again, I am thinking I know why it might have been such a battle. I may be wrong here, and please forgive if I misunderstand what you did, but it looks to me as if you ended up leveling _two_ things, one being the level itself, and the other, the table under it, in an iterative process where stage by stage, you zeroed in on getting everything level, including the surface under the level.

I have done this process, and it took nothing like what you describe to get there. The surface under the level needs only to be pretty flat, and not move at all. The sort of flatness common on a piece of MDF will do. The surface  does _NOT_ have to be level, nor need it get leveled in the process. It can, in theory even be at a silly tilt, but it helps to have it approximately level when you start out, if only to not have things fall off. Getting the surface to a sloppy version of level is good enough, and it slows down the change from bubble jammed up one side to slinging across to the other.

I kept rotating the level around a mark until the bubble moved across. To speed things up, I used a separate level first. One that behaved, and would be against the same line showing level when reversed. Then I tried the one needing adjusting, and as expected, it found a new line, and when reversed, yet another, with my reference line straight up the middle of them. From then on, I only used the "good" line. I marked the corner place of the level also, so that when I turned it 180°, I could set it down in the same place.

The rest is obvious, although several times, I did keep turning the adjuster the "wrong" direction because of messing up which way was "up". Allowing waiting for settle times, it took about 30mins. I never needed to alter the MDF surface. Important that it stays put, ummoved during the entire process. Absolutely not adjusting it from underneath. Simply set the level up to the same line you know to be true level every time, and leave the table alone.


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 5, 2020)

@graham-xrf
I really believe (and I can only speak for myself) was that when I first got the level, I thought, I’ll make sure it’s calibrated...Chinese/shipping/not a terribly expensive level etc...
I had NO IDEA what I was fooling with. I watched videos, but never did I get the warning I should have. Since then it’s been a nightmare. Mine is particularly complex inside compared to most, and I disassembled it. Anyway, I FOUND a perfectly level surface is a bad thing when THIS FAR OUT IF WACK. I would have never got it calibrated....ever.
Getting the bubble where it just was not pegging a side was a good start. Both Aukai & myself could achieve this, but flipping it 180 destroyed it. So, instead of adjusting the level when I flipped it....I changed the TABLE LEVEL. No the pegged side was SLOWLY GETTING CLOSER TO CENTER, but no there yet. Flipped it and NOW changed the adjustment slightly. Back and forth with this technique. I THINK what it did was MUCH SLOWER, bring it into calibration. Splitting the difference of how much my table was off and how much my level was off.
I actually took it on a cold, bumpy ride to work today to make sure it wasn’t a fluke. I’m still dead on!
These levels to someone new at dealing with them are IMPOSSIBLE to get calibrated once you have pretty much turned the adjustment screw all the way one way, then all the way the other. Now it’s good, I CAN use a level surface, but before, just wasn’t going to ever happen. Added work pictures...


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## graham-xrf (May 5, 2020)

OK - I get it. The level was so far out - an amount that exceeded the bench or surface under the level, so that there was never going to be a position to start from. You needed first to get it to the point the bubble would cross in any fashion. Consider yourself no longer new at dealing with them, and keep an eye out for the next  HM member who took took a level apart - he may need you!


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## epanzella (May 6, 2020)

I have a 12 inch precision level that is marked .0002 over 10 inches. It so sensitive that if I hold it in my hand the bubble will move from my body heat. The level was close from the factory but was not calibrated perfectly. Do I care? No. I have a scribe mark on the body of the level which allows me to use it the same way every time. I set it on top of 123 blocks sitting on the flat ways so that the level clears the V-ways. It doesn't matter if the lathe achieves absolute level. All that matters is the relative level of all the parts in relation to the rest of the lathe. Because I bought my lathe new I was able to get the taper out of it with just the level but as beds wear the level will only get you close and you'll need to turn some collars and measure them for the final test. Max wear usually happens about a foot out from the headstock.


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## nnam (May 6, 2020)

When I opened one of a precision levels I bought, it has a differential screw to adjust for balance. I put 3 wood screws at around a flat board and used that as a way to calibrate.  At each end of the level, I put a piece of parallel at the bottom.

As some said, it can be chasing a devil.  It's fun and good to get close to precision god.


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## graham-xrf (May 6, 2020)

nnam said:


> When I opened one of a precision levels I bought, it has a differential screw to adjust for balance. I put 3 wood screws at around a flat board and used that as a way to calibrate.  At each end of the level, I put a piece of parallel at the bottom.
> 
> As some said, it can be chasing a devil.  It's fun and good to get close to precision god.


Here we have have again the 3-point adjust to the surface under the level. @GunsOfNavarone had a legitimate case for needing that, because his level was so very far off, there was no point it found level, regardless the rotation.

I only needed a flat MDF board, put down on the bench, fixed so it would not rock, and it was not quite level.
The rotation with a known level found the horizontal line. Then I just used that line to place the level being tested.

If without a known good level, it is still no problem. You end up with two lines from when you reverse the level.
The good line is the one that bisects.

Adjusting the platform as well then has 5 variables affecting each other in classic chase-your-tail mode with the possibility of non-convergence, instead of only two. I admit to the fun part. I do it too!


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## GunsOfNavarone (May 6, 2020)

epanzella said:


> I have a 12 inch precision level that is marked .0002 over 10 inches. It so sensitive that if I hold it in my hand the bubble will move from my body heat. The level was close from the factory but was not calibrated perfectly. Do I care? No. I have a scribe mark on the body of the level which allows me to use it the same way every time. I set it on top of 123 blocks sitting on the flat ways so that the level clears the V-ways. It doesn't matter if the lathe achieves absolute level. All that matters is the relative level of all the parts in relation to the rest of the lathe. Because I bought my lathe new I was able to get the taper out of it with just the level but as beds wear the level will only get you close and you'll need to turn some collars and measure them for the final test. Max wear usually happens about a foot out from the headstock.


Well you're smarter than myself. Had no idea the pandora's box I was opening. Live and learn...


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