# Why is it acceptable



## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 18, 2020)

I recently became obsessed with lathes and decided to purchase one along with some tooling. It's a hobby so I didnt want to go completely nuts but I wanted top of the line. I chose a company with a good reputation and spent over 4500 after shipping and tools to get started. I love everything about my lathe so far except the 4 jaw chuck that I spent 480$ extra on(lathe came with 6" 3 jaw).

Why should it be acceptable to be told that the chuck may need to be trimmed down a bit or worked on in some way to get it to sit right with my spindle? I mean I paid almost 500$ for the chuck after after spending thousands with this vendor should I really not expect the chuck to wobble because this is a "hobby level" lathe setup? The 3 jaw works perfect and all of the camlock stud indicators are in the same spot relative to the lip of the hole. On the 4 jaw when the studs are situated in a spot to accept the camlock all of the indicator rings are sitting at different heights along the lip? Like wtf? Seems pretty obvious to me that the thing is going to have some wobble? Am I crazy? Vendor rep thinks so. The thing sits flat against the spindle it's just off. Super frustrating.  Just curious why its acceptable In this community to tell people they're just hobby level so they shouldn't expect things to work? If I'm going to have to machine something do get it to work I want a disclaimer beforehand like there was with the QCTP and I gladly paid the extra 20$ to have the thing shipped in working order.  


Sheesh


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## DavidR8 (Feb 19, 2020)

What vendor are talking about?

As an aside, I see that this is your first post here.
Can you tell us a bit about yourself, your experience and what you’ve machine bought?
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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

nighthawkFmobil said:


> On the 4 jaw when the studs are situated in a spot to accept the camlock all of the indicator rings are sitting at different heights along the lip? ... The thing sits flat against the spindle it's just off.



I kinda understand the reason for the rant but am not clear on what the problem is. Are you saying that the indicator lines on the camlock studs in the back of the chuck are at different levels? If so, remove the socket head cap screws at the base of each pin and turn the stud in or out until the line lines up with the surface of the chuck, then reinstall the screws. Then try locking the chuck on the spindle and see how the cams line up. Or am I more confused about what you mean than I think I am?


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## Video_man (Feb 19, 2020)

Generally with a cam-lock you are expected to adjust the studs to fit the female camlock on the spindle.  If I understand your post, the chuck adapter isn't fitting properly into the spindle, and the adjustment is fairly simple to accomplish.  I'll look for a reference and post it here if I can find it.

<edit> here is a reference on this site: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/enco-13x40-d1-4-three-jaw-chuck-adjustment.31188/


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## Bi11Hudson (Feb 19, 2020)

It is general practice, as in necessary, to *"tune"* every chuck to the specific machine it is used on. Mine are screw-on chucks, Craftsman/Atlas 12" and Grizzly 9" with the same spindle thread. Although the thread is the same, the chucks are not interchangable without tuning them to the specific machine they are used on.

For general shop *use by me*, it really isn't absolutely necessary that they be tuned. But to get any serious accuracy, it should be done. I occasionally swap chucks around to fit the job. But  my use is such that in most cases it doesn't matter. Short work, close to the chuck, and loose tolerances. As long as that's the case, fine tuning doesn't matter.

My machines are archaic, the C'man being older than I am. And I'm 70ish. There are many systems for hanging a chuck. And with each it is necessary to fine tune the chuck, whether it is new or salvaged or removed from another machine. Take some time to tune it for the machine it is to be used on.

Tuning for runout is a whole different matter. For my 3 jaw chucks, the jaws are moved one step at a time until runout is lowest. Then marked so they can be replaced in the same order. But for a 4 jaw chuck, this is a non-issue. The above post has a link to a different mounting system.

.


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## Tozguy (Feb 19, 2020)

Sheesh, welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy your experience here.

The rings on the studs are just a guide to get the studs setting in the ballpark when assembling the chuck.
When installing the chuck the individual studs might have to be turned in or out to get the cams to hold properly (ie. between the 'V' marks when tight). The rings on the studs might end up at different depths. Where the rings on the studs are located is of no consequence. That's the nature of the D1- system.

Too bad that your discussion with the rep got sidetracked, it is not about what hobby people are like.


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## Janderso (Feb 19, 2020)

Tooling can be expensive. My Bison 4 jaw was about $1,000. That was a super deal.


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## NortonDommi (Feb 19, 2020)

As has been said  you will need to adjust the studs to the correct depth.  BEFORE you start mucking around I suggest you mark the spindle and the chucks so that you always fit them the same way.    Make sure your 3-jaw is marked as to which jaw goes in which slot as well.  The jaws will be marked but you will need to remove them to see the number.  Good fun moving them around to find the best accuracy then mark the corresponding slot.
  D1 camlocks do not have to be cranked down with all your might either.  Tighten up as you would a cylinder head working across the chuck in a pattern.  I have measured the difference in runout between just starting at on stud and working around doing them all tight in one hit and working around in three or four bites in a pattern. An extra minute makes all the difference.


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## Tozguy (Feb 19, 2020)

Chances are that the 3 jaw was installed at the factory so it would come already adjusted to your spindle.
The 4 jaw even if ordered with your lathe would not have been fitted to the spindle and then removed before shipping. So we can not expect to avoid the need for final adjustment on the 4 jaw D1 studs no matter how much the chuck cost.



nighthawkFmobil said:


> The thing sits flat against the spindle it's just off.



That is what is important, that the chuck be pulled tight to the spindle with no daylight showing in the gap anywhere. Often the tapered nose on the spindle will be a tight fit in the recess of the chuck so it is very important to pull the chuck on evenly as Norton mentioned above. If that is not the case then the chuck will be off for sure.

If however the chuck is installed properly but something is off, we would need to have more detail on what exactly is off.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Wow. Wasnt expecting so many replies, that's awesome. That was my first post but I've been lurking on the forums for months now and I really do appreciate all the info one can learn places like this. Truly amazing.

My apologies for the confusion. Honestly guys the 4 jaw came with the studs not installed so i read the manual and was able to get them to seat just fine. Let me explain all I've tried as far as the studs are concerned.

First I hand tightened them down to bottom out in the hole then roated them to where they aligned with cap screw and that was a no go for camlock engagement. Then I backed them out one full turn from from that position and no engagement(yes I have the 3 studs as well as the 3 locks on the spindle numbered) no matter how I clocked them there was no engagement. Next I went two full turns and I get no engagement however I clock them. At 3 full turns i get proper engagement with the camlocks and there's no light between the spindle and the chuck. But all of the locks are at different positions within the V two are pretty close but one is obviously off. With that setup no matter how I clock them I get runout along the side of the chuck of about .0025" and the back I get about .013-.020"runout yet the back is fully seated on the spindle or at least I cant see a gap or light when I shine from opposite side. Not to mention the wobble I get when I actually run the spindle. So I back them all out 4 full turns and they all  fall between 6-12 and the other is close to 6-12. I even had the two that engage at 3 full turns nicely set at 3 full turns and then I'd set the one that's off at 2 turns and it engages but still has a wobble, then I'd set it at 4turns and it would spin to 6-12 position. I've pretty much rotated studs and clocked it every which way I can imagine while it still engages and well nothing... but wobble

Ok I went through to double check all the stud heights and clocking each.
- First I put studs at the first available setting that matches with the cap screw hole I will refer to it as setting 0. None of the studs would engage.
-next I put them all 1 full turn out from setting 0 I'll call that setting 1. None of them engaged
-next I tried setting 2 and with all 3 studs number stud 3 was able to engage with all 3 locks at the spindle somewhat but the other two could not
not
- tried them all at setting 3 and clocked all 3 ways but could not get rid of wobble.
wobble.
- then put stud 3 back to setting 2 and left studs 1an 2 at setting 3 and I was getting better readings. I found the studs had the hest readings when seated with the corresponding number on the spindle coincidentally. 1at1 2at 3at3 I was able to get a reading of .0005" on the side of chuck and .004" at the back of the chuck. Manual states you want a runout of -=<.025mm or .00098".  I ran the machine and it seemed better but I feel like I saw a bit of wobble but it seemed to be less noticeable at a higher speed.
-next I tried studs 1an 2 at setting 4 and neither would engage at any position on clock
then to be extra I put studs
-then to be extra I put studs 1 and 2 back to setting 3 and tried stud 3 at setting 4 at all positions on the spindle and it would spin past the v's just like studs 1 and 2 did

I think it's safe to assume I'm tuned the best this thing is going to get at this point.

Is the only way to find out to take a cut? I mean it's hard for me to seem wobble at this point but I think I see a bit at lower speeds. The vendor rep told me the dial indicator reading on the od of chuck and the back don't matter. But the manual for the chuck being sold under vendors name that was apparently written by the vendor or specifically for them states otherwise  the way I'm visualizing it the indicator would pick up wobble from the back for sure. If the numbers do matter is the od being out .0005 and the back being out .0045 acceptable?
	

		
			
		

		
	




I've attached a picture because I'm wondering if this style chuck has a removable backplate and if the cap screws I circled would have anything to do with the alignment?

Sorry my post are so long I'm obviously not the most concise.

Kind regards, thanks


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 19, 2020)

The OD is irrelevant. The back being out could point to a bigger problem. Mount the chuck on the the spindle in whatever configuration gives you the best possible readings. Then chuck a piece of round stock  and indicate it as close to zero as you can up close to the chuck. Then check it several inches away from the chuck. If the two readings are significantly different, the chuck is not mounting square to the spindle.

From the picture, I don't think you have a removable backing plate.  I don't know what the cap screws are for, but they don't look big enough to be mounting bolts, and a backing plate would not be cut away to match the chuck casting.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Tooling can be expensive. My Bison 4 jaw was about $1,000. That was a super deal.


Starting to think I may be going that direction soon. I dont mind paying more for nicer stuff but when a reputable vendor doesnt list that modifications are needed on certain products I'd like to think modifications wouldn't be needed. Idk maybe the chuck will turn fine with the setting I've dialed in on. Just makes me nervous taking a cut with any kind of wobble at all. My eyes are playing tricks on me all I've seen is wobble sincee got off work yesterday. Probably need to take a step back for a moment.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> The OD is irrelevant. The back being out could point to a bigger problem. Mount the chuck on the the spindle in whatever configuration gives you the best possible readings. Then chuck a piece of round stock  and indicate it as close to zero as you can up close to the chuck. Then check it several inches away from the chuck. If the two readings are significantly different, the chuck is not mounting square to the spindle.
> 
> From the picture, I don't think you have a removable backing plate.  I don't know what the cap screws are for, but they don't look big enough to be mounting bolts, and a backing plate would not be cut away to match the chuck casting.


Thanks for your kind reply. I didnt think it had a backplate but the vendor rep told me to remove the backplate while I'm tuning in the chuck lol. That could have turned out ugly if i went prying on that thing. 

I'm going to check a piece of stock as you instructed. Makes sense. Much appreciated.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Sure does look like one solid piece to me.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 19, 2020)

Can you post some pics of the backplate?


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## Cadillac (Feb 19, 2020)

The screws you marked are to lock the studs for the jaws to the chuck. I have a chuck similar in design except is flat on the backside. The mounting studs are threaded directly to the back of chuck. Your picture looks like there is a ring plus the chuck?
 After looking at the second pic it is definately one piece.


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## Suzuki4evr (Feb 19, 2020)

nighthawkFmobil said:


> Wow. Wasnt expecting so many replies, that's awesome. That was my first post but I've been lurking on the forums for months now and I really do appreciate all the info one can learn places like this. Truly amazing.
> 
> My apologies for the confusion. Honestly guys the 4 jaw came with the studs not installed so i read the manual and was able to get them to seat just fine. Let me explain all I've tried as far as the studs are concerned.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the  H-M play pen. You will always get help here in some way.


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## Tozguy (Feb 19, 2020)

OK its a direct mount chuck, no backplate as Cadillac said.
I agree with the idea that there should be no visible wobble when the chuck is mounted to the spindle. It might not be a deal breaker but it certainly is irritating.
How easily does the chuck come off the spindle after it was fully tightened on the spindle? My concern is that the tapered recess in the back of the chuck might be too small and prevents full contact of the flat surfaces that are all important. Maybe remove the three studs and hold the chuck on the spindle to see how tight the taper is.
I would not take a skim cut anywhere on the outside of the chuck but I would certainly relieve the tapered recess in the back of the chuck by hand with wet/dry sandpaper if it is too tight.


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

Do you have a live center?


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## derf (Feb 19, 2020)

By changing the order of the studs and getting different results, it is evident to me that the counterbore on the chuck is slightly smaller than the spindle nose and not drawing up truly square. It may look like it's drawing up tight, but when you re- arrange things and get different numbers, it tells me that it is not bottoming out. I would open up the tapered counterbore on the chuck slightly with some emory cloth, and check it with some bluing. Once it bottoms out, the run out on the back of the chuck should be .000.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Yessir that was the next option if whoopee suggestion doesnt show similar numbers. I have zilch experience sanding chucks to fit spindles so I'm worried if I take too much off and screw it up in the opposite direction I'll have no chance of a refund. Im pretty confident with sanding metal though I do have experience with sanding non critical stuff.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

BtoVin83 said:


> Do you have a live center?


Yes I have a live and a dead center.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

derf said:


> I would open up the tapered counterbore on the chuck slightly with some emory cloth, and check it with some bluing.


What grit/s would you use?


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

I would mount the chuck without using the studs and use the center to push it onto the taper and then check for the wobble, don't spin it too fast but just check it. At this point the camming studs are not being used and the center is holding it on the taper. Check to see if the back part of the register is against the shoulder on the spindle.


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

Do not sand grind or lap anything until you figure this out, replacing a chuck is bad enough but a spindle replacement is gonna be expensive.


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## derf (Feb 19, 2020)

Opening up the counterbore in the chuck is not as critical as you think. It must be big enough to allow the chuck to bottom out on the spindle face. If it's slightly oversize, it will only affect run out on the o.d., but it will still be square to the spindle. After all, this is a 4 jaw chuck.


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

Just curious what lathe did you buy?


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## Tozguy (Feb 19, 2020)

Don't touch the spindle no way no how! 
Relieving the internal taper in the back of the chuck is not risky. A too small taper will prevent the chuck from seating but a too large one is manageable as derf said. It is very unlikely that you will overdo it by hand. You do not have to take a lot off to fix the problem. I would use some 320 grit.


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

Didn't say not to do it but figure out what the problem is before whacking away on something. As soon as you touch that with abrasive you own it without recourse with the vendor, vendor may not stand behind it but if you don't mess with it you stand a better chance.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Is the flat I'm pointing to on the chuck supposed to sit flush up against the flat I'm pointing to on the spindle?


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

BtoVin83 said:


> vendor may not stand behind it but if you don't mess with it you stand a better chance.


 Wouldn't you think they would though? I'll let you guys know who it is after I deal with them. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to ask them for a refund. The threads on the jaws are all pretty tight except for ome as well. There's no mention of this stuff on their website.  I paid good money I feel like I should know if im getting into something that needs modifications even if I am just hobby level gear. Haha


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## benmychree (Feb 19, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> The OD is irrelevant. The back being out could point to a bigger problem. Mount the chuck on the the spindle in whatever configuration gives you the best possible readings. Then chuck a piece of round stock  and indicate it as close to zero as you can up close to the chuck. Then check it several inches away from the chuck. If the two readings are significantly different, the chuck is not mounting square to the spindle.
> 
> From the picture, I don't think you have a removable backing plate.  I don't know what the cap screws are for, but they don't look big enough to be mounting bolts, and a backing plate would not be cut away to match the chuck casting.


Those bolts circled in blue marker are for retaining the nuts that the jaw screws engage.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

After some research it looks like yes the two flats are supposed to be mating flush


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm not making it to the flat if I'm going by the depth of sharpie maker that has made it onto the taper of the chuck.


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## benmychree (Feb 19, 2020)

The backside of the chuck adjacent to the studs, and the taper are the only surfaces that should be in contact, not the flat area at the bottom of the taper.


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## Sheather (Feb 19, 2020)

This is the thread that helped me when I had a similar issue: (Especially post #26)  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/mounting-d1-3-three-jaw-chuck.72187/

Bob Korves summed it up well toward the end:  





> Note also that every chuck, faceplate, collet chuck, or anything else that mounts to the spindle needs to be separately fitted to the spindle taper and face.  It is really not that difficult, but mildly fussy, to do.  Just requires understanding of how the parts fit together.  Don't mess with the spindle at all except to very carefully remove any burrs that may exist there.​


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Right that's was what I came to understand. I didnt write down the measurements and unfortunately i cant think of them but if the nose of the spindle was transfering sharpie like it looks like it did then the measurement of the depth its sitting at isnt enough for the surfaces to be mating. Inwas careful when I did it but I'll double check when I'm done runni ng around. Then I'll have to call company and see what they want to do.

You guys think I should try for refund and just get a more expensive chuck? I like to run carbide inserts for roughing and they like high speed.  My machine maxes at 2krpm so Id need something rated pretty high


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

If the face is not in contact push the chuck onto the taper with the center and now you can feeler gauge the gap. With that you have something in concrete to present to the vendor. I would not get overly excited about fixing a customers issue if he came back and said this doesn't look right, well prove it to me.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

BtoVin83 said:


> push the chuck onto the taper with the center and now you can feeler gauge the gap.



Bto sir,

My live center is an mt3 it's not big enough to fill the bore on my 8" chuck. Unless you're suggesting I snug the collar on the live center up against the chuck and take measurements? put the center in to a depth in the tailstock where the mt3 can still spin? Then push it up?


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

BtoVin83 said:


> If the face is not in contact push the chuck onto the taper with the center and now you can feeler gauge the gap. With that you have something in concrete to present to the vendor. I would not get overly excited about fixing a customers issue if he came back and said this doesn't look right, well prove it to me.


Also the rep I talked to yesterday told me he had to open up the taper of the same exact chuck to fit his machine from the same company that also has a d1-4 camlock. He kind of lead me on to think i could possibly get it to tune in. Part of the reason I'm so frustrated.  This is a big reputable company. If they know this is an issue they should post it on the website.  There's a video on YouTube of the same exact chuck wobbling the same as mine on a bigger machine by same company.  Also other reports of the jaw screws being too tight. Mine arent "too" tight but they arent smooth. These things should be disclosed before sales. 480$ isnt exactly chump change. Not to mention the damage someone could do to their spindle. I'm lucky I didnt screw my spindle up.


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## MikeWi (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm the one that he was talking to. And I have to say that so far I'm not seeing anyone contradict what I told him over the phone. The point is not that you're wrong about the chuck, the point is to do the due diligence to make sure the chuck is out. If the chuck is not bad, you absolutely will be able to get it running straight using the methods repeated here. If you can't, we've never had a problem with taking back or replacing a defective product. and if this is bad we will. I've already pointed out this thread to Matt as well, so he can Gibbs slap me if he thinks I was wrong about anything.
edit:
And yes, I though you had a different chuck with a backplate. My bad there!


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## NortonDommi (Feb 19, 2020)

Have a cup of tea, take a deep breath and start from scratch. Carefully inspect the spindle and measure to see if there is any runout. Blow out the stud holes. Try Bluing the taper section, this should show any tight spots. Check everywhere for they tiniest burr, ding or piece of crud.  Turns of the studs don't matter it is the indicator marks that do.
  I hope you are keeping a written record of ALL dealings with the vendor rep?  Date, time, what was said etc.  Take photographs of what procedure you follow as well.  That chuck looks very well finished,(should for the price!), but strange things do happen.


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

Live center in the tailstock and a block, wood or anything, between the point and the chuck face. This should push it onto the taper fairly straight and now take a feeler gauge and measure at 3-4 places. I think it is unacceptable to have to fit a camlock chuck. Bet you wouldn't have to on Cushman


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

One other thing, watch your max speed. I believe the 8" cast iron 4 jaws are limited below 2000 rpm. You might have to go to  steel chuck if you are intent on spinning that fast. Look on the chuck face and should give the max rpm.


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 19, 2020)

That looks like one our our chucks, I can not quite figure out the name on the order for sure, but I looked up the city and took a guess. I won't give any info if you did not post, just to keep your name and all to yourself. Not 100% sure if this is who I think, maybe a 75/50 shot but that looks like one of our 4 jaw chucks. If its us, feel free to post if its us and details about what you have, no reason to hide anything, us and everyone can help you figure it out. We were all new at once, as long as people are polite and willing to take advice, we will help anyone.

Just a few pointers, whether our machine or not, not sure if I/you understand the mounting completely:

1. Yes, the faces of the blue arrows you drew are supposed to mount flush with each other. Nice and tight, absolutely zero gap. .001 here will cause wobble and runout.

2. The camlock studs are not supposed to bottom out, there is the groove machined around them and thats where you start as a reference point, then you go from there and adjust until your cams lock, you want your cams to lock between 3 and 6 o clock. If its at the 6 to 12 mark like you said, its too loose. When you are at the 6 and 12, remove the chuck and screw the camlock stud in one turn, that should be the right setting. It does not matter if they are slightly different.

3. The sharpie is not really a good indicator, you need something like a feeler gage to see if there is any gap, although you can normally see it, possibly need a light. Just make sure its all going on straight and there are no burrs raised in the taper bore if it was pulley a little crooked before.

4. If he mentioned sanding anything on the taper in the chuck, I have seen them where burrs or indentations come up if you try to put it on and its pulled crooked, and it has to be just right. He was not saying to machine that down.   Now it is common with a chuck with back plates, you mount the back plate to the spindle, take a cut on that, then mount the chuck. Then you are dead on with the machine. But the chuck in the pic is a one piece. No back plate.

5. Can you send or post a video? That might help. If the chuck has wobble, it seems like it is not pulling up on to the spindle all the way. I am not sure what was meant by the OD of the chuck has .0005 runout (Which is fine) but the back has .0045? 

6. I do not know what you mean about the tool post in your first post, that makes it seem even more like its one of our machines since this order had a tool post on it, the tool post is a straight bolt in on this machine, nothing has to be modified on it, maybe its something different.

If it is a machine and / or chuck from us, you can also email at tech@precisionmatthews.com and they will help, I did search the email I think it is and I have zero emails so I am not quite sure. We are here to help if needed, things can be frustrating sometimes but Ive done this 1000 times and have no problem helping out (And obviously some of the people on here too)


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 19, 2020)

Guess Mike and I were posting at the same time after he told me. As far as jaws being tight, I personally think they are just right. I think some of its from people being used to a well worn in chuck where you can twirl the chuck wrench around with one finger, but I don't know. Any one that I have ever checked was OK

 Anyway let us know, we will get you fixed up.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

...


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## aliva (Feb 19, 2020)

On my lathe with the same D1-4 chuck camlocks the chuck sits flat with in a few thou of the spindle face. Check for burrs or dirt.
The camlocks secure the chuck to the spindle, the female taper on the chuck ensures proper alignment with the spindle. Be sure the male and female tapers are clean.
Be sure to tighten each camlock loosely on the first go around and then come back a torque them down solidly. I remount the chuck till I get the least
runout and then mark the spindle and chuck position for repeatability. I used some Dykem red dye


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Thanks point of this thread wasnt to bash your company.  Love the lathe and everything I recieved with it so far except the issues I'm having with chuck. Thanks for standing by product.


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## BtoVin83 (Feb 19, 2020)

Agreed, it's not about bashing anything. Once you have identified the problem of the chuck not seating now you can remedy it, new chuck, return and get another or fix the one you have. But I still think is is unacceptable, machinist for 25 years and have never needed to seat a chuck except those using a backplate


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

qualitymachinetools said:


> 5. Can you send or post a video? That might help. If the chuck has wobble, it seems like it is not pulling up on to the spindle all the way. I am not sure what was meant by the OD of the chuck has .0005 runout (Which is fine) but the back has .0045?
> 
> 6. I do not know what you mean about the tool post in your first post, that makes it seem even more like its one of our machines since this order had a tool post on it.



5. I'll get video later this evening. I've attached picture to explain where my readings were coming from when I have it "tuned" in


Per instructions here: unless I'm not understanding what this says.


I bought the PM1228 back around Christmas. Not trying to hide anything I just didnt want to look like an idiot and bash an innocent company if in fact it was just me being a newb.

6. The qctp works great. I paid extra for the one that required no mods. Haven't had a single problem with that other than the parting tool holder slipping a bit when it's not tight enough but that doesn't bother me at this point cause I can crank on it a bit and get it to hold for at least one cutoff.


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 19, 2020)

Ahhh OK Now I understand.   I would also measure on the face of the chuck, I know the jaw slots are in the way though so not as easy.  Normally if the chuck was wobbling, the OD would also be off with an indicator, the surfaces kind of go together, and if it was off at the back like it has a slight space between the spindle face and the chuck, it should have some runout going on the O.D. too.     Check it out tonight when you have some time to make sure it is pulled all the way to the face of the spindle with zero gap and see what you find with that.

That part is Highlight means the OD runout should be less than .025 mm (about .001")

And I misunderstood about the tool post, sorry about that, thought there was a problem with it.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

When I went back to put it in the position it was in giving different results every time no matter where I clock it. I could only get the back within .0055".the OD i could get down <.001 but the back is giving me high numbers and I can fit a piece of .001" shim in between the spindle and the chuck at certain spots where the studs are and on certain parts its can't fit through.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

View attachment 20200219_200616.mp4

View attachment 20200219_200616.mp4


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Accidentally posted video twice. You can see the chuck moving away from the spindle.


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## NortonDommi (Feb 19, 2020)

Take a very deep breath and start from scratch.  Remove the studs from the chuck and offer up just the chuck after bluing the spindle and check the fit.  If all good replace the studs and set as per the instructions. Double check every step. 
  Studs go in, get tightened with screw turned clockwise until indicator mark is between 3 & 6 o'clock when the are locked up.  Seat slowly. DO NOT crank on a screw or it will cock the chuck.  If not good decide on plan of action.


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

+1. Remove the studs and check if the chuck fits all the way onto the spindle taper. If it does then one or more studs are preventing the chuck from seating properly. You may need to swap stud positions until you find an arrangement that allows the chuck to snug up properly. This is not an uncommon problem and is due to manufacturing tolerances being what they are.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

So trying all 3 studs in all 3 holes, and at all the different turn out positions per stud and all the different clocking positions per turnout option may finally result in a desired outcome?


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## NortonDommi (Feb 19, 2020)

Each individual stud is set at the correct height when the indicator mark on the screw is between the two 'V' marks on the spindle which are located at 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock when looking at the end of the screw.  IF that condition is met when the stud is locked down then the stetting for that stud is correct.  It just makes life simpler if the studs always go into the same hole.  The screws turn clockwise to tighten and anti-clockwise to loosen.
  IF the chuck sits correctly on the spindle then when the screws are turned the studs pull the chuck tight and all is well. 
It looked like that chuck was loose in the video.  The system is so simple that it is hard to visualise a problem occurring.  The only thing I can imagine is not making sure all the screws are in the neutral position and not checking that the chuck will actually sit flat on the spindle OR one time only I saw someone turn the screws anti-clockwise to tighten the chuck  but it was obvious when looking at the indicator marks.


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

The stud holes in the chuck and the threads on each stud differs. The datum line inscribed will put each stud at a different height; this might be a very small difference but it does make a difference. What I would do if this were me is to install the studs in the chuck and get the datum line at the surface of the chuck. I would label each hole and each stud and keep track of their positions. Then I would try to lock the chuck down to see if it worked. If not then I would leave #1 in place and rotate the other two and check for fit. If that failed, I would leave #2 in place and rotate #1 and #3, and so on. 

Hopefully, one of these combinations will work. If not, call Matt and discuss a return. The important thing to realize is that it isn't a reflection on PM. These things are produced in a factory and it is the nature of the beast that things will vary. Just replace the chuck and move on.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Right, I tried every position so far. I stated that in an earlier post it was probably just too long for any normal person to read. The chuck taper is off. This is a big set back for me. Sucks


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

Nah, just contact Matt and ask them to replace the chuck. Life is too short to deal with so much angst. Matt will make it right.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 19, 2020)

Very true


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## Tozguy (Feb 20, 2020)

nighthawkFmobil said:


> Right, I tried every position so far. I stated that in an earlier post it was probably just too long for any normal person to read. The chuck taper is off. This is a big set back for me. Sucks



I am sure that a tight D1-4 taper is not uncommon even with expensive chucks. It must be awful difficult to manufacture a chuck for a perfect fit on any D1 spindle that may exist. Personally I would rather have a tight one than a loose one. It seems to me that you are close and some light easy work on the chuck would solve the problem. It might not be according to expectations but then are you expecting a replacement chuck to fit better?

BTW when the taper fits well and does not obstruct full contact, adjusting the studs is child's play. With the practise you have had so far with the studs you must be getting comfortable with the procedure.


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## Downunder Bob (Feb 20, 2020)

I have never experienced these type of dramas. My lathe arrived new from the dealer with a 3 jaw and 4 jaw D1-4 type attachments. Both have fitted perfectly since day 1, I have not had to make any adjustments. and they run true.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> It might not be according to expectations but then are you expecting a replacement chuck to fit better?
> 
> BTW when the taper fits well and does not obstruct full contact, adjusting the studs is child's play. With the practise you have had so far with the studs you must be getting comfortable with the procedure.


 YES IM A DAMN PROFESSIONAL AT ADJUSTING STUDS NOW. HAHA definitely always see the silver lining I was actually just thinking that before i read ur post.  

Appreciate all ur help so far Tozguy. Yeah I'd say spending the kind of money that I did on lathe and tooling I'd expect things to fit up. 

Everyone talks so highly of the bison chucks inwomder what their success rate is on the d1 chuck taper. Now I'm intrigued....


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## Tozguy (Feb 20, 2020)

Me too although it is not sure how many loose fits would be reported since it is so much less of a problem as a tight fit. It would also be interesting to know Bison's manufacturing tolerances for that chuck versus those for a D1-4 spindle nose.

I understand your wanting good stuff for good money. I tried that with automobiles.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

I want what's advertised.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

Wow may just be time to eat crow yikes.
View attachment 20200220_103434.mp4


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

View attachment 20200220_103603.mp4


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## ErichKeane (Feb 20, 2020)

What ended up being the issue?  What did you do that it ended up that perfect?


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 20, 2020)

Ahhh OK I see now, videos and pics help so much. If that .001 shim is behind there, looks like that taper is just a little bit too tight. We can swap them out, no problem. If you can email us at tech@precisionmatthews.com we will get that taken care of.

Edit: Sorry I was only on page 2, I did not see the updates until I posted, that looks pretty perfect to me! What was the fix just so others know if they come across this?


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## Tozguy (Feb 20, 2020)

It tastes better eating crow while it is still warm.
"Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." 

What happened?


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> What ended up being the issue?  What did you do that it ended up that perfect?


Results haven't been repeatable. Only thingI did different was to do what mikey said and swap the different studs across the different stud holes.

Even with that runout I could still get a .001" shim behind it and matt said u shouldn't be able to  was really hoping thatd just be it and I'd be able to run the thing.

I've tried it 5x since then it was literally the last spot on the spindle and the last stud/stud hole combination to try that I knew was plausible to work. The last setting which I've since tried would have put the the Mark's to much at like a 530 6. It didnt work

Cant get the best setting yet to duplicate.

I'm done now haha


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 20, 2020)

If you can still get a .001 shim between chuck and spindle, then the good results were a fluke. Send it back.


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 20, 2020)

Thats odd, dead on would not be a fluke, unless you had exactly a .001" Gap all the way around, that would take some extreme luck, but maybe. Email us and I can have the guys send a return label so we can check it out here and see whats going on.

Thats correct there should not be any room between the spindle face and chuck. 

.001 is just so close its like it just needs you to breathe on it to warm it up haha

Also though I see some other chucks mentioned, personally I would not spend the money on a Bison chuck for that lathe, its going to cost 1/3 as much as the lathe. Just trying to save you some money, I feel that would not be money well spent, you are not going to see any difference once this one pulls up correctly.


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## NortonDommi (Feb 20, 2020)

qualitymachinetools said:


> Thats odd, dead on would not be a fluke, unless you had exactly a .001" Gap all the way around, that would take some extreme luck, but maybe. Email us and I can have the guys send a return label so we can check it out here and see whats going on.


  We are all intrigued so I ask that when the puzzle is solved can we be advised of the answer?


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 20, 2020)

So am I haha


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## Tozguy (Feb 20, 2020)

I gotta say Matt that I like your style!


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## Tozguy (Feb 20, 2020)

qualitymachinetools said:


> .001 is just so close its like it just needs you to breathe on it to warm it up haha



Close, to get the taper to sit .001'' deeper we would only need to remove .000124'' from the side of the socket. Maybe just by polishing with a rubber Dremel bit ? (sorry Nighthawk but I can't help myself that way)








						Dremel 1/4 in. Rotary Tool Cylinder Shaped Rubber Polishing Point for Polishing and Finishing Metal, Hard Wood, and Plastic 461
					

Dremel 461 Rubber Polishing Point is a cylindrical polishing accessory made with blue rubber and abrasives for removing small burs and scratchmarks on ferrous metals. The rubber polishing point is impregnated



					www.homedepot.com


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

I emailed y'all Matt waiting on a reply for instructions.  I'm totally willing to work with you. You personally have been great with customer service through this ordeal. I know you can make it right.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

Here's the 3 jaw on indicator. Going from the back on this is really hard because there's some chamfered bolt holes that I show in the 2nd video. Everytime it hits one of those it jumps a bit. Took all of about one try to get this and the shim doesn't slip behind. I also got curious and tried it in every spindle hole and the mlm ost it runs out is like .002 which I think is in spec for this one I may be mistaken on that. I'll have to double check manual. 
View attachment 20200220_141959.mp4


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

Wouldn't let me upload the first video I took of this but here's another, guess it was too long.

View attachment 20200220_153456.mp4


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## NortonDommi (Feb 20, 2020)

Its a toss up. Send it back or wrap/glue a bit of 1000 grit wet & dry Silicon Carbide paper to the spindle abrasive out and lap the chuck.


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## middle.road (Feb 20, 2020)

I may have missed it going through the three pages too fast, but has bluing the spindle and checking the mating chuck bore and vicey-versy been performed?
I had a dingle-berry in the bore of one of my chucks that gave me fits.
Showed up once I blued it properly.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

middle.road said:


> I may have missed it going through the three pages too fast, but has bluing the spindle and checking the mating chuck bore and vicey-versy been performed.



Haha No I haven't done that yet as I dont want to void possibility of a refund. Nobody has replied to my email asking if they'd back that kind of thing. Matt just wants me to send it back and I'm good either way. 

Where can I get layout fluid locally? Dies it have to be blue or is red ok?


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## ErichKeane (Feb 20, 2020)

Auto parts stores usually have what you need, which is prussian blue, not layout fluid.  Most auto parts stores should have permatex prussian blue.  Spread a really thin amount on one side (spindle or chuck), put the chuck against the spindle and hold firmly (perhaps rock it a little).  You'll see where it is worn off.

Color doesn't matter, and I cannot imagine it would void warranty any more than oiling the chuck would...


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## mksj (Feb 20, 2020)

As a general comment, you normally do not measure the back or outer surface of the chuck to determine if it is running true. I have a number of high end chucks and they are all out ~0.001" in diameter and if I were to measure the back edge as you are doing, it has nothing to do with how true it holds the work. In fact a set-tru type of chuck you can move the whole chuck body around 0.004" to true up the work piece and/or account for some variations in the scroll or the diameter of the material. On a 4J independent it has no bearing on the function of the chuck as each jaw moves independently. Chuck up a piece of round stock and indicate out to around 6" to make sure it is running true or do a light test cut, there are various methods already described.The only indication that there would be an issue would spinning the chuck at high speed and having vibration because it is out of balance.

When you buy chucks they normally do not fit/adjust the chuck to the machine, that would only occur if it was shipped mounted. If you chuck had a back plate, in some cases you would need to do a skim cut and in some cases the registration step. Depends on the manufacturer and the type of chuck. SO if you but say a Bison chuck with a Bison back plate they will fit out of the box.

When mounting the chuck it is very important to mount it lightly tightening the cam locks at first and then repeat another 2-3 times getting it torqued down evenly in steps. The mark must be between the 3 and 6 o'clock indicators, they will not all match. Similar to torquing a motor head. On my lathe the chucks mount is very tightly to the spindle and sequentially tightening the cam locks is the only way to get the chucks to properly seat. It is so tight that I need to clamp a rod through the chuck for leverage or lightly tap the chuck with a soft mallet to get it to release. But the chuck back must fully seat, so if you can fit a 0.001" feeler and the mating surfaces are clean than you have a valid issue. I would exchange the chuck for a replacement since it is new and it appears that the spindle interface might be slightly high.  FYI, I have two Bison chucks, a PBA, the 4J you have and an ER chuck that I made, the QMT 4J independent fits the same as the others and had almost no vibration even at maximum speed. Mine had balance weights on the inside, only chuck I have seen this. You will also find with carbide inserts that at least on these smaller machines you will end up running about 1/2 the box SFM ratings, the depth of cut and feed are more important to getting a good surface cut as well as the tool holder/insert properties. This has been discussed in depth previously.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 20, 2020)

None





mksj said:


> As a general comment, you normally do not measure the back or outer surface of the chuck to determine if it is running true. I have a number of high end chucks and they are all out ~0.001" in diameter and if I were to measure the back edge as you are doing, it has nothing to do with how true it holds the work. In fact a set-tru type of chuck you can move the whole chuck body around 0.004" to true up the work piece and/or account for some variations in the scroll or the diameter of the material. On a 4J independent it has no bearing on the function of the chuck as each jaw moves independently. Chuck up a piece of round stock and indicate out to around 6" to make sure it is running true or do a light test cut, there are various methods already described.The only indication that there would be an issue would spinning the chuck at high speed and having vibration because it is out of balance.
> 
> When you buy chucks they normally do not fit/adjust the chuck to the machine, that would only occur if it was shipped mounted. If you chuck had a back plate, in some cases you would need to do a skim cut and in some cases the registration step. Depends on the manufacturer and the type of chuck. SO if you but say a Bison chuck with a Bison back plate they will fit out of the box.
> 
> When mounting the chuck it is very important to mount it lightly tightening the cam locks at first and then repeat another 2-3 times getting it torqued down evenly in steps. The mark must be between the 3 and 6 o'clock indicators, they will not all match. Similar to torquing a motor head. On my lathe the chucks mount is very tightly to the spindle and sequentially tightening the cam locks is the only way to get the chucks to properly seat. It is so tight that I need to clamp a rod through the chuck for leverage or lightly tap the chuck with a soft mallet to get it to release. But the chuck back must fully seat, so if you can fit a 0.001" feeler and the mating surfaces are clean than you have a valid issue. I would exchange the chuck for a replacement since it is new and it appears that the spindle interface might be slightly high.  FYI, I have two Bison chucks, a PBA, the 4J you have and an ER chuck that I made, the QMT 4J independent fits the same as the others and had almost no vibration even at maximum speed. Mine had balance weights on the inside, only chuck I have seen this. You will also find with carbide inserts that at least on these smaller machines you will end up running about 1/2 the box SFM ratings, the depth of cut and feed are more important to getting a good surface cut as well as the tool holder/insert properties. This has been discussed in depth previously.


Yeah idk what to think. Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to try to open the taper up a bit. I just grabbed some prussian blue.


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## NortonDommi (Feb 21, 2020)

nighthawkFmobil said:


> Haha No I haven't done that yet as I dont want to void possibility of a refund. Nobody has replied to my email asking if they'd back that kind of thing. Matt just wants me to send it back and I'm good either way.
> 
> Where can I get layout fluid locally? Dies it have to be blue or is red ok?


Bluing the spindle to chuck was suggested very early on.  It is basically one of the very first things you should have done.  A 'sharpie' will not cut the mustard.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 21, 2020)

NortonDommi said:


> Bluing the spindle to chuck was suggested very early on.  It is basically one of the very first things you should have done.  A 'sharpie' will not cut the mustard.


Yeah I hear you but I didnt want to jump the gun and be tempted to start sanding stuff down if Itd void warranty. Matt has been great about standing by his product so now i can move forward. Last thing I wanted to do was cause drama. Just some miscommunication between myself and the tech rep. Thanks for all the help and sorry if y'all had to repeat things that are already well documented.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 21, 2020)

View looking at all three studs


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## ErichKeane (Feb 21, 2020)

Did you blue the spindle and that is the transfer?  If so, that looks like you might have put it on way too thick.


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 21, 2020)

No voiding anything if you are trying to correct something like that, as long as its anything reasonable (Like I said in the email, just don't take an angle grinder to it! Obviously joking haha)  so no problem there. I emailed back last night, when you have a chance just let us know what you find, or I can have it sent back to us and I will take a look.

Edit: There I go again posting from the wrong page before looking at the newest updates, but now I see I just clicked on the notification and did not go to the end first!


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 21, 2020)

Assuming the angle of  the taper is correct, bluing the spindle taper will not reveal the problem. The area in question is the flat contact area between chuck and spindle.


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## qualitymachinetools (Feb 21, 2020)

Also, its not even really like sanding it down, its more like wiping it out, .0001 isnt much at all. In old machinist terms from the guys I used to work with, its a very light kind of hair as the amount that has to come out. Coming from me though when I have done fits on different things so many times over the years, I see how it can be frustrating especially when new to this. This is why machinists that do it for a living end up being very very cranky haha. 

It is the fit of the taper not letting it come all the way to the spindle face, so it is the area that is blued that is being checked, that is correct.


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## ErichKeane (Feb 21, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> Assuming the angle of  the taper is correct, bluing the spindle taper will not reveal the problem. The area in question is the flat contact area between chuck and spindle.



I think the idea was to determine whether the problem was a burr keeping it from going all the way down, or just too small of a recess in the chuck.  It seems clear from that bluing picture that he's pretty darn far away from the flat touching though.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 21, 2020)

More pics less blue. Probably a bit too much again but it was easier to get depth readings without wiping it down a bit. Idk if its visible in the pics but my eye is picking up a slight depth variation from 1 to 2 and 3 back to 1(pics are in order looking at studs 1,2,3). I cant think of a consistent way to take measurement so I'm using the depth gauge on my calipers and I'm getting pretty repeatable readings of very roughly something like stud 1.).3975", stud 2.).4135", stud 3.).4145". The results very every time but it always has stud one seated lower while 2 and 3 are pretty close. Idk makes sense to me I need to take a hair off in the area of stud 1


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## Tozguy (Feb 21, 2020)

The blue is in the right place. Don't know what the depth gauge is for.
The chuck was installed on the spindle and then removed. Right? Where the blue gets rubbed thin or rubbed off is where a 'high' spot is that needs to be polished/buffed.


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## Superburban (Feb 21, 2020)

Looks like this one stud needs to be turned in one more turn. The others you cannot see the line.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 22, 2020)

qualitymachinetools said:


> In old machinist terms from the guys I used to work with, its a very light kind of hair as the amount that has to come out.


No doubt in my mind you're talking about an RCH .  Yep , that's all it would take to remove to seat the chuck correctly .


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## mmcmdl (Feb 22, 2020)

Any chuck leaving the factory should be checked with go/ no go taper plug gages . The blueing should be transferred to the shoulder that meets the lathe spindle , not the taper . If it doesn't , the taper is too small .


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## Tozguy (Feb 22, 2020)

The issue of fit to the spindle versus pin adjustment should be cleared up.

A good fit;  the chuck should slip onto the D1-4 spindle to full contact (or within .001) by hand pressure. To test this remove all the pins and fit the chuck on the spindle. If the desired contact is not evident then work needs to be done to get it. The first thing to check is whether the shallow tapered recess in the chuck is tight and prevents the chuck from seating to full contact. Do any work on the chuck and not on the spindle.

Once the fit test is passed install the pins using the rings engraved on the pins for guidance.

Proper pin depth; holding the chuck up to the spindle by hand the cams should turn clockwise the first 90 degrees easily to the first V mark. Then further turning of the cam will take up any clearance left and stop before passing the second V mark. If the cam does not get to the first V mark easily then turn that pin one turn out and try again. If the cam does not lock up before passing the second V mark then turn the pin inwards by 1 turn and try again. The cams do not all have to lock up at the same point between the V marks.

Please note that there is no need to be switching pins around to find a magical place for the pin. The thread pitch on my D1-4 pins is 1mm or .039''. The throw of the cam over the quadrant used is .045''. So it is easy to see that any pin can be adjusted to any cam and lock in between the V marks. It is designed that way. Once the pins are adjusted properly it is important to index the chuck to the spindle so that the pins return to the same cam next time around.

Taking up the clearances with the cams does not take a lot of torque and you should feel the cam stop sharply when clearances are gone. There is no need to wrench down on the cams too much and the usual T wrench offers plenty of leverage for bare hands. The ingenious design of the D1- system means that any pressure wanting to pull the pin out will only tighten the cam. Remember the cams are a lock as opposed to being a fastener.


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## nighthawkFmobil (Feb 22, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> The issue of fit to the spindle versus pin adjustment should be cleared up.
> 
> A good fit;  the chuck should slip onto the D1-4 spindle to full contact (or within .001) by hand pressure. To test this remove all the pins and fit the chuck on the spindle. If the desired contact is not evident then work needs to be done to get it. The first thing to check is whether the shallow tapered recess in the chuck is tight and prevents the chuck from seating to full contact. Do any work on the chuck and not on the spindle.
> 
> ...



Such good information I just spent the last few days learning  . Everything you said in that post is clear now and aligns with the logic I accumulated getting into this thing. Guess everything happens for a reason. 

I got some 320 grit emery cloth last night and very lightly took a couple passes around the chuck taper. Just after like 30 second of very light "polishing" per section I can get a couple of the areas around studs to reject the .001 shim and sit a lot closer to the spindle flat. It's just the area around the stud I had mentioned wasnt seating as deep(stud#1). It also seemed to rub in that spot a bit when I'd do the prussian blue. It was late and I got food poisoning thursday night so I stopped.

I'll finish it today hopefully and post how it goes.


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