# Rust Prevention



## RV-N8ZG (May 27, 2017)

I have an Albrecht chuck that was suffering from neglect - lots of surface rust and some pitting.  Given the knurling, threading, small passages, etc., Scotchbrite would not remove the rust.  After some study, I decided to try one of  Lyle Peterson's solutions, and dunked the pieces in white vinegar.  After an 18 hour soak, most of the rust was gone, and the parts were covered with a black, oily film.  Light scrubbing with fine Scotchbrite and hot water removed the film, but there was still some rust in the knurling and a few pits.  Changed the vinegar and set it aside.  Three days later all the rust was gone.  Under the black film, the metal had changed color to a relatively uniform deep grey.  More hot water and Scotchbrite, and a little time in the toaster oven to ensure the parts were dry.

I have gooped the parts with LPS-3 to keep the rust at bay, but I know it is not a good long-term solution, since some internal components must be assembled dry to function correctly.

Any suggestions on a process or product I can use at home to protect the steel?


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## 4GSR (May 27, 2017)

Everyone has their own brew of rust preventive solutions.  Mine is simple ISO 46 or 68 oil.  Give all the parts a good coating with this oil and let stand a while before assembling.   For assembly get a tube of Lubriplate 105 engine assembly lubricant.  Apply a little of this to the internal parts and call it good.  Over the years of using and storing of the drill chuck,  Apply Starrett M-1 oil to the chuck and your other tools to store.  Nothing wrong with using ISO 46 or 68 for storage too.


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## woodchucker (May 27, 2017)

Too bad you didn't watch the whole series. Vinegar etches and pits the surface of metal when left in that long. Hopefully you haven't hurt the metal.  Next time try either electrolysis or naval jelly. Both of those did not harm he part. Even evaporust did etch the part.

I use oil to coat all parts.  Are you sure the cap needs to be dry. I think only the jaw surfaces need to be dry. The cap inside wet the  outside maybe.
You can blue it all, which will work well. 
I have not blued yet. But there is plenty of info here on it. You will still need to oil it after bluing, but you can dry the jaws after. You can also remove the bluing on just the edges of the jaws..

Hopefully you'll get more responses that are more educated than me.


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## Bob Korves (May 27, 2017)

woochucker said:


> Even evaporust did etch the part.


Evapo-rust, a chelating method, does not etch parts.  Every other liquid method I know of does etch parts, except electrolysis done properly, and perhaps molasses, thought I do think there is a chance of pitting with molasses (and it is slow, slow, slow.)



RV-N8ZG said:


> I have gooped the parts with LPS-3 to keep the rust at bay, but I know it is not a good long-term solution, since the inside of the cap and the mating jaw surfaces need to be dry function.


Some of the parts of an Albrecht chuck need to be kept dry, some need a very light coating of oil.
http://www.machinistblog.com/rebuilding-an-albrecht-drill-chuck/  This is from our own Mikey, and is an excellent tutorial on rehabbing Albrecht chucks.
http://www.royalproducts.com/img/category/upload/Albrecht_Full.pdf  From the Albrecht distributor.  Repair information at the bottom of the catalogue.
If you do not repair and maintain them correctly, they will not work correctly and may get damaged in use.

If you rebuild your Albrecht chuck and do it incorrectly, you will sooner or later be sorry...


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## RV-N8ZG (May 27, 2017)

Thanks Bob -
The blog entry by Mikey was one that I read in my initial refurbishment research a couple years ago when I first acquired this chuck.  It was good to re-read and refresh my memory.  Input from the distributor is also welcomed; I didn't know that I could send it back for refurb.

I'm happy with the results of the vinegar soak, at least as a first learning attempt.  I rather like the new color, but it does seem more prone to rust.  It did etch the steel - the threads that attach the Hood to the Shell make more noise, are not quite as smooth as before, but still not loose. 

Neal


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## EmilioG (May 27, 2017)

Vinegar is a bad choice for quality tool. I always start with Purple Power to remove most of the oil and grime, rinse in fresh water, dry
then a careful bath of EvapoRust or Oil Eater. Purple Power alone does an amazing job on light to medium corrosion. I watch to make sure the metal doesn;t turn grey, which really doesn't happen anyway.
Rinse and wash with dish detergent. Now on to some super fine and fine Scotch Brite. I also use 3m lapping film for a super polish on bright steel.
 Some parts can be put on the lathe and polished.
That Albrecht will never be bright and shiny again, unfortunately.  A fine Dremel wire wheel works well for the rusted knurling.

I've only used vinegar once, on scaly mild steel that was faced later. Albrecht uses hardened steel parts and can be polished back if they're not too far gone with rust.
You can still buy Albrecht parts; the hood is fairly expensive. Msc and Royal products has all the parts.jaws, bearing balls, hood, collars, etc..
New jaws may be in order at the very least. What size is that Albrecht? Do you have a before picture?


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## Bob Korves (May 27, 2017)

Vinegar and other acids remove rust pretty well.  They are also mostly cheap, a good thing.  Unfortunately, they also eat some of the good metal as well as the rust.  If you are working on an old shovel or a rusty brake drum or a framing square, an acid is the perfect choice.  For your Starrett combination square, an abused Hermann Schmidt grinding vise, or an Albrecht chuck, go with something like Evapo-rust or Metal Rescue, or learn to do good work with electrolysis, and then put the rusty parts to soak.   The work will still be shiny afterwards, except where it was not shiny originally, or where the rust has caused pitting to occur.  No product puts good metal back where rust has taken it away, except perhaps a welder or an electroplating rig.


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## woodchucker (May 27, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Evapo-rust, a chelating method, does not etch parts.  Every other liquid method I know of does etch parts, except electrolysis done properly, and perhaps molasses, thought I do think there is a chance of pitting with molasses (and it is slow, slow, slow.)
> 
> 
> Some of the parts of an Albrecht chuck need to be kept dry, some need a very light coating of oil.
> ...


in Mr. Pete's test Evaporust did etch the parts when left in a very long time. They were rough. The process is slower than vinegar, but it did etch them according to his tests. I was interested in that series as I had been using vinegar and had the etching. I had tried molasses, and it just didn't do it. I had setup electrolysis but it's  something I don't want to leave while sleeping should it short or something. So I was looking for some other testing to see what was happening. I think Evaporust is fine short term, but not a long bath.


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## Bob Korves (May 27, 2017)

Mr. Pete is the only place I have ever seen that, and I have de-rusted a lot of tools and other materials.  I suspect that single sample lot was already pitted.  I also will not accept a single test lot as evidence.  I have left tools in Evaporust for a couple weeks, multiple times, no pitting, nice finish.  Mr. Pete, who I enjoy watching at times, did not even read or follow the directions on ANY of the products he was testing, even the ones with stern warnings about putting your bare hands in the liquid.  He is quite flippant about how he approaches the testing, and with interpreting the results.  That testing was barely adequate at best, click bait...


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## 4GSR (May 27, 2017)

I'm not a fan of electrolysis at all for personal reasons.  I have used Evaporust a time or two with mix results as well as vinegar.  Most of the time I grab some steel wool or emery cloth and get after it. Regardless what process you use some metal will get removed.  Will it change a part or tool dimensionally? Probably not if your talking in thousandths, maybe a notch or two in ten-thousandths.  Just one process has more elbow grease to it than the other.


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## mikey (May 27, 2017)

Neal, to address your question about rusting, you are dealing with flash rust because your process has removed all traces of oil and surface oxides from the parts. This is commonly seen after de-rusting and is almost guaranteed after electrolysis (which I use a lot and am a big fan of).

For an Albrecht chuck, only the spindle (leadscrew thing) and threaded area of the body must be oil-free. In fact, only the spindle threads and the threads inside the body have to be oil-free. If you wish, you can apply a coat of paste wax to any other nearby surface adjacent to the threads and not cause problems and that will stop rust for some time. Just don't get anything on the threads of the spindle.

The rest of the chuck can be oiled lightly. Apply your oil of choice to discourage the rust, then wipe it all off with a rag. Enough oil will remain on the surface to discourage further rust on the innards. Assemble the chuck and use a light coat of oil on the outside and the chuck will be fine. I use Camellia Oil on the outside and have no rust issues, even though I live a mile from the ocean.

Okay, back to the etching vs non-etching debate!


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## dlane (May 27, 2017)

Don't think it'll help these, surprisingly the insides feel fine, they were free


Darn shame a


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## woodchucker (May 27, 2017)

mikey said:


> Neal, to address your question about rusting, you are dealing with flash rust because your process has removed all traces of oil and surface oxides from the parts. This is commonly seen after de-rusting and is almost guaranteed after electrolysis (which I use a lot and am a big fan of).
> 
> For an Albrecht chuck, only the spindle (leadscrew thing) and threaded area of the body must be oil-free. In fact, only the spindle threads and the threads inside the body have to be oil-free. If you wish, you can apply a coat of paste wax to any other nearby surface adjacent to the threads and not cause problems and that will stop rust for some time. Just don't get anything on the threads of the spindle.
> 
> ...



Mikey , explain why the spindle thread s don't get oil. I read your rebuild blog, but I still can't figure a reason why that remains dry.
I can't see anything slipping from that. It looks like the pin does all the work spinning the spindle , so what am I missing, why does that cause a problem.\
Enlighten me please.


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## 4GSR (May 27, 2017)

Jeff, I tend to agree with you "why no oil", it needs some type of lubrication, a little light oil in my opinion should be fine.  A dab of Lubriplate 105 should do it.  I have a Albrecht chuck I dis assembled years ago and cleaned up all of the rust crud, went back together with Lubriplate 105 on everything.  I don't use the chuck that often, when I do it works nice!  I won't tell you how I got it off the spindle of the drill pres it came off of..it involved a 15" Crescent wrench.


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## 4GSR (May 27, 2017)

dlane said:


> Don't think it'll help these, surprisingly the insides feel fine, they were free
> View attachment 234339
> 
> Darn shame a


Derrick,

I wouldn't let the outside bother you.  That's just cosmetic.  Be real easy to turn those areas down a little bit and re knurl to make it look nice again.  But before doing that, take them apart and see what the insides look like.  Their salvageable in my opinion.


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## dlane (May 27, 2017)

Yup Ken: those were the last of the smooth operators, the rest are stiff  x3.
1/8-5/8" , need a new arbor then I'll check them out


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## Bob Korves (May 27, 2017)

Most of the parts of an Albrecht chuck are hardened.  It might be difficult to turn them or to knurl them.


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## mikey (May 28, 2017)

woochucker said:


> Mikey , explain why the spindle thread s don't get oil. I read your rebuild blog, but I still can't figure a reason why that remains dry.
> I can't see anything slipping from that. It looks like the pin does all the work spinning the spindle , so what am I missing, why does that cause a problem.\
> Enlighten me please.



A keyless chuck like an Albrecht is self-tightening by design. As it encounters the cutting forces during a drilling operation, the chuck gets tighter. Oil on the threads of the spindle and body defeats this ability and the drill will slip and/or spin in the chuck. Albrecht specifically says not to allow any oil in these areas for this reason.


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## woodchucker (May 28, 2017)

I understand it is self tightening, what I can't wrap my mind around is the threads not having oil. Those threads are just pushing the jaw anvil (your exploded view on your rebuild page). So I would understand the anvil not having oil as that probably runs against the jaw guide and requires a no-slip fit. Its the threads that I can't understand not having oil, they need to be able to easily turn while self tightening.  Wish I could understand. I guess I'll have to open one up to understand.. as the diagrams and description just aren't working for me.


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## 4GSR (May 28, 2017)

mikey said:


> A keyless chuck like an Albrecht is self-tightening by design. As it encounters the cutting forces during a drilling operation, the chuck gets tighter. Oil on the threads of the spindle and body defeats this ability and the drill will slip and/or spin in the chuck. Albrecht specifically says not to allow any oil in these areas for this reason.


Interested.  
I guess I have to take mine apart and de-oil it. Argggg!


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## EmilioG (May 28, 2017)

I think I trust the engineers at Albrecht when they designed their chucks NOT to use oil or any lubricant on the spindle threads.
This information is also in G.Lautards MBSR #2 in his great description on how to re build an Albrecht drill chuck AND Albrechts primer on how to rebuild their chucks.
I've disassembled all of my Albrechts, 6 to date, to lubricate the hood threads and jaw guides only, so that 10 years from now, rebuilding them
will be much easier.  Like Mikey wrote, the Albrecht is a self tightening design and a greasy, oily spindle thread will make the chuck loose it's grip. Friction is your friend here.  These are not high wear parts. They will last for a very long time with normal use and care.  I've seen 15 year old Albrechts at the shop where I worked and they are like new! and no rust.  

(See Mikey's great blog with photos with the use of DIY aluminum clamps).  Albrechts are amazing works of engineering and manufacturing.
The workmanship is amazing; so it always sad to see an abused Albrecht.  The Albrechts are built like tanks,.... but even tanks can get blown to bits.


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## woodchucker (May 28, 2017)

Emilio, I'm not disagreeing. I'm just trying to understand the reason. I can't see the threads being oiled preventing the self tightening. I always want ot understand things.. Except electronics which I am brain dead on.  But mechanical things , I have to understand, it will cause me to lose sleep if I don't


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## mikey (May 28, 2017)

woochucker said:


> I understand it is self tightening, what I can't wrap my mind around is the threads not having oil. Those threads are just pushing the jaw anvil (your exploded view on your rebuild page). So I would understand the anvil not having oil as that probably runs against the jaw guide and requires a no-slip fit. Its the threads that I can't understand not having oil, they need to be able to easily turn while self tightening.  Wish I could understand. I guess I'll have to open one up to understand.. as the diagrams and description just aren't working for me.



The way I see it is that the threaded spindle pushes the jaws up in the jaw guide, up against the hood, as we tighten the chuck. This clamps down on the drill bit solidly but this clamping action is dependent upon a consistent force. If the force lets up, even a little bit, the drill will slip. The friction caused between the unlubed spindle and spindle body is critical to the function of the chuck. Any oil in there and that friction is gone ... and the drill slips. 

Have you ever wondered why there are so many Albrechts on ebay with gnarled up hoods and collars, or galled jaws? Oil in the spindle is the key culprit. When a drill slips, the user grabs two big pliers or monkey wrenches in an attempt to MAKE the chuck grab but it cannot, by design. 

The other reason those chucks are so beat up is because when an Albrecht grabs correctly the chuck can get so tight you cannot get it to let go. This is especially so when using a big drill that grabs on exit. Then they have to muscle the chuck to get it to loosen. 

We are taught to lube threads to ensure proper torque is applied as a bolt is stretched. However, in this instance, we are not stretching the spindle. We are maximizing flank contact and relying on the friction between the flanks of the threads to hold the parts in position. For what its worth, this seems to work rather well ... as long as we don't oil it.


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## EmilioG (May 28, 2017)

What Mikey said.
Also, if a drill bit is placed too far up into the chuck body, touching to "top", there is no "room" for the chuck to let go.
It's all about fiction holding the keyless design.  Look at a cross section of the Albrecht, the spindle/body are mated and matched
in the lapping process to close tolerances. They work very well and work "dry" to create friction to hold the jaws closed around a drill.
If the spindle were oily, this would cause slipping and the bit doesn't hold.  These parts are well machined and don't rub or lock, they're smooth well made parts.
If you ever get a chance to look at a new disassembled Albrecht, you'll see what I mean.


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## BROCKWOOD (Jun 19, 2017)

About Molasses, the term, "Slower than Molasses" most likely got it's start from it's early use as deruster in the boating community.  Old seized, locked up engines could be placed in a solution of 1:10 Molasses & Water then left to soak for a minimum of 3 months.  Many old engines were able to be placed back in service this way.  My experiments with this did yield grey scale & once the scale was removed the steel was a lighter grey.  Best left to your cast iron parts (like boat engines). My test subjects were a drafting kit from the late 1800s & a speedometer shell from a 72 Dodge Charger.  Both are better for their Molasses soak - but have a whole new character from 'as born'. Save this for your 'let's see if we can salvage utter junk' parts.


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## Bob Korves (Jun 19, 2017)

mikey said:


> When a drill slips, the user grabs two big pliers or monkey wrenches in an attempt to MAKE the chuck grab but it cannot, by design.


Don't let pliers or monkey or pipe wrenches anywhere near your machine tooling.  Save them for working on water pipe and black iron gas pipe.  Use a good quality strap wrench (or two, opposing) to do the job without tearing your tooling up.  The one shown is a Ridgid.  The newer ones are imports and not nearly as good as the older USA ones,  but still about 100 times better than the Harbor Freight version (POS on all but very light work, has a rubber strap which fails).  There may be better strap wrenches out there, I have no knowledge of them, but my old Ridgid ones always do the job for me...


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