# Do we need a British HF ?



## graham-xrf (Mar 12, 2022)

I have seen Harbor Freight sometimes characterized as "the pits for quality" being hyped in discount bundles, and there are even some Harbor Freight jokes! Along with this, clearly a whole lot of HM members seem well enough acquainted with their shelves, and it does seem that some HF lines are good, solid stuff at reasonable prices.

We don't have the equivalent of HF here in the UK. There are some DIY chains (think paint, garden stuff, overpriced wood, price-point power tools, etc.)  These which include some famous name brands, along with the store re-badged stuff.

There is Machine Mart in UK, but it does not look at all like HF, and seems to plug limited brands (like Clarke). Welders. compressors, and the like. I see some of that stuff end up on eBay while still looking "hardly used". Thus here I go for for some indication from Stateside. Are you glad HF is there? Could we do with some of that stuff here? Unless you just happen to need a wastebasket, or a single spray can of Rustoleum, do you just drive past?


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## 51cub (Mar 12, 2022)

Couldn't hurt. I get pretty much all my consumables there. Tools, maybe. I try for American made, but even that's not set in stone. It depends on what I need, how fast I need it, how often I'll use it, price difference and the wait to get one from someplace other than HF


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## RJSakowski (Mar 12, 2022)

I pretty much drive past, largely because HF is about five miles out of the way for me.  My go to used to be a regional DIY and I would usually stop in every time I went into town.  As of two years ago, I limited all my travel as much as possible and Amazon became my go to.  That said, I do stop in at HF for things on occasion and I will often check HF online for pricing and availability  when making purchases.

I have had mixed experiences with HF but it seems that their quality has improved in recent years.  Their prices are competitive if not better for items of comparable quality.


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## jwmay (Mar 12, 2022)

It's handy, but I don't think you're missing anything. Wish they still sold the 12x36 metal lathe. Other than welders, their prices are comparable to most other mid grade products. It's not great stuff. I've typed and deleted a lot of stuff here... but I think the answer is no.


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## Gnpenning (Mar 12, 2022)

I'm very selective in what I pick.  Being honest with yourself about quality verses price is very important when shopping there.


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## Bi11Hudson (Mar 12, 2022)

There is an* occasional* good product there, but I wouldn't go so far as to say you missed out on a 'good thing'. Of the few power tools that I have bought there, none are current models. A thickness planer (for wood) that was all metal, but only marginally useable for turning framing lumber into archaic sizes, was a good buy that I have *never seen* anywhere else. But that was years back, when the first store in the state had just opened. But that was almost 20 years ago. I currently use a Foley Belsaw machine, the HF went to my brother when he retired. Their portable power tools, sanders, drills, saws, and the like aren't and never were worth using. The motors are designed for 100 volt use and the power cords I wouldn't use for a desk lamp. 


Gnpenning said:


> I'm very selective in what I pick.  Being honest with yourself about quality verses price is very important when shopping there.


He about says it all. There are a few things that I go to HF for where their price beats the local big box store. Such as paint stirrers, where I have several for different products and quality doesn't really matter. And wire welding wire that is used for my model building where I need steel but not music wire. Just remember what you are working on and keep in mind that you start at the bottom and work up to what you *need* vs want.

.


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## Navy Chief (Mar 12, 2022)

Bi11Hudson said:


> There is an* occasional* good product there, but I wouldn't go so far as to say you missed out on a 'good thing'. Of the few power tools that I have bought there, none are current models. A thickness planer (for wood) that was all metal, but only marginally useable for turning framing lumber into archaic sizes, was a good buy that I have *never seen* anywhere else. But that was years back, when the first store in the state had just opened. But that was almost 20 years ago. I currently use a Foley Belsaw machine, the HF went to my brother when he retired. Their portable power tools, sanders, drills, saws, and the like aren't and never were worth using. The motors are designed for 100 volt use and the power cords I wouldn't use for a desk lamp.
> 
> He about says it all. There are a few things that I go to HF for where their price beats the local big box store. Such as paint stirrers, where I have several for different products and quality doesn't really matter. And wire welding wire that is used for my model building where I need steel but not music wire. Just remember what you are working on and keep in mind that you start at the bottom and work up to what you *need* vs want.
> 
> .


Their power tools are to be avoided unless it is a one off project and you will never use that tool again. Their hand tools (wrenches, screwdrivers, and ratchets) are on par with what you can buy at any other big box home improvement store both in quality (questionable) and proce. When the consumables are on sale for the right price I'll stock up. They are nothing spectacular, you're not missing much. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 12, 2022)

They are now offering lifetime replacement on their hand tools, something Craftsman used to do. I have bought some of their combination wrenches and impact sockets, which have been of decent quality. Then there is the ubiquitous 4x6 bandsaw, which no home shop should be without. They have made significant steps to improve the quality of their tools in recent years, with a comensurate increase in prices.


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## benmychree (Mar 12, 2022)

I do not buy anything that they sell, period.


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## Just for fun (Mar 12, 2022)

I have bought a few things there, most if not all of it is made in China.  I bought a US General toolbox there and it seems to be pretty darn nice.  I also bought an electric hoist 2000 lbs. and a set of 1-ton Haul Master trolly wheels that seem ok.  Other than that, they have a bunch of stuff that's fun to look at and I am sure there are some other good stuff there.  Like I said before it's made in China and most it is not all that good.


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## matthewsx (Mar 13, 2022)

You’re probably not going to get one regardless. I worked for them 20 years ago and they were a decent employer, even had Sunday off back then.

The biggest thing is they are all managed locally and their managers have a fair amount of leeway to make it right if you’re not happy.

They also support Vo Ed programs which I think is cool

Yes, you do have to be selective in what you buy but in recent years they’ve stepped up quality and now offer different grades of tools.

 I’m happy to have one just down the road from me because they have stuff you can’t get elsewhere at decent prices. But they are still family owned I think and based out of Camarillo, CA so getting one in the UK is pretty unlikely. 

Maybe you could get a Princess Auto near you, I’ve been to one and it’s kinda similar.

John


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## WobblyHand (Mar 13, 2022)

There's a love hate relationship with HF.  You can get some attractively priced merchandise there in more than a few "departments".  There's also a lot of stuff that is just plain junk.  If you have a discerning eye, then you can pick up a few items.

I have done well on occasion and also been burned.  Wrenches and sockets were decently priced.  However, HF is not a good place to buy a single socket anymore.  If you need to turn a socket into a hex insert, or one of your 10mm sockets has gone into hiding, forget it.  I found this out recently, trying to buy a single socket for a 1" bolt.  They're phasing out having individual sockets.

I have bought several tool cabinets, (rolling tool carts with lots of sliding drawers) from HF and they are great.  They're a good value.

Did get burned on their pipe theading kit.  The NPT dies were wrong.  I cut and hand threaded over 50 feet of 1/2" iron pipe for garage air distribution.  I hung it up by the ceiling.  Every pipe joint leaked terribly.  Comparing the threads to a normal pipe thread showed the problem, the taper wasn't correct.  No amount of pipe dope would stop the leaks.  Still haven't fixed this - really took the wind out of my sails.  Guess I will fix it this summer.  In the meantime, I inherited some Ridgid pipe dies, even being 70 years old, still cut beautiful NPT threads, with the proper profile.  The Ridgid threads require a tiny amount of dope or tape to seal.  So the kit I bought from HF was worse than useless, since the dies were counterfeit.  (Sold as NPT, but being nothing of the sort.)  Will cost me a lot of time, and sweat to replace the piping, moving things to gain access, removing each piece from the ceiling, cutting the threaded ends, rethread, rehang and hope that I can adjust things enough since each pipe is 1.25" shorter than it was before.

Others may have similar stories.  Some good, some bad.


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## RJSakowski (Mar 13, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> There's a love hate relationship with HF.  You can get some attractively priced merchandise there in more than a few "departments".  There's also a lot of stuff that is just plain junk.  If you have a discerning eye, then you can pick up a few items.
> 
> I have done well on occasion and also been burned.  Wrenches and sockets were decently priced.  However, HF is not a good place to buy a single socket anymore.  If you need to turn a socket into a hex insert, or one of your 10mm sockets has gone into hiding, forget it.  I found this out recently, trying to buy a single socket for a 1" bolt.  They're phasing out having individual sockets.
> 
> ...


It's not just HF.  When I was overhauling our water system in 2013, I bought a special 1-1/4" brass ball valve.  It was special because instead of simple NPT connections, it used a separate piece that sealed to the valve with a gasket  with the outgoing end threaded to the fitting of your choice.  I chose it because the effectively provided me with a union which permitted me to change out the pressure tank if/when necessary.

The NPT threads leaked with Teflon tape.  They leaked with Teflon pipe dope.  The only way that I got a seal was to use epoxy.  This valve was from an American company the proudly displayed a "Made on USA" label on the valve.


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## erikmannie (Mar 13, 2022)

There is a HF only 5 minutes from my house. I purposely avoid it because the items sold are low quality.

I have gone there when I was flat broke, & needed some grinding wheels, files, or the like just to finish one job.

In this case, the files will be consumed & thrown in the trash bin. Similarly, the grinding wheels will be a disappointment (wearing out quickly), & I am once again reminded why I *plan* to buy quality items.

Usually, *planning* to buy quality items is basically equivalent to considering where the item is manufactured, in my opinion.

Can anyone think of a country that is known for cheap price/low quality? Do we want to spend our hard earned money on flimsy materials? I will, but only as a last resort.

Of course, a good craftsman would be able to produce beautiful work with materials made in PRC.


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## Janderso (Mar 13, 2022)

Gnpenning said:


> I'm very selective in what I pick.  Being honest with yourself about quality verses price is very important when shopping there.


This>>


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## WobblyHand (Mar 13, 2022)

At the risk of a heated discussion


erikmannie said:


> Can anyone think of a country that is known for cheap price/low quality?


Yes, I can.  It depends on the era.  It was Japan in the 50's.  Before they got their act together, they made a lot of crap.  It was US cars in the 70's, lot of low quality stuff made.  I experienced some awful US cars made around then.  It is China nowadays for somethings as well.

As consumers, we are attracted to seeking out bargains.  Perhaps it is the thrill of a score.  Or feeling good because we practically stole it.

We often blind ourselves into thinking about price only, rather than value for cost.  China can make products that have good value.  They can also make utter junk, or counterfeit product that looks useful but is not fit for purpose.  

For consumers, it has always been buyer beware, since the earliest times.  _Caveat emptor_.  Why do you think standard weights and measures were invented?  To minimize cheating in the marketplace, so that consumers got everything that they paid for.  The marketplace has always been a rough and tumble place, with many pitfalls.  There are some sellers that try to cheat their customers by putting their thumbs on the scale, (or its equivalent,) or reducing the function or quality of the product and not disclosing that fact to the customer.  Consumers need to be vigilant and ask themselves if the offered product is truly worth the asking price.  If something is really inexpensive compared to what everyone else is charging, one has to ask why.  It could be the product is not fit for purpose, or the producer has found a better, cheaper way to manufacture it.  

If the product isn't worth the asking price, move on, don't buy it.  Be more discerning the next time around.  I've been burned with products made from several different countries, including the US.  If you buy a domestic product you are _more likely_ to get satisfaction, but honestly there is no guarantee of this.  Your country may have some consumer protection laws, but usually they are not ironclad.

Please don't bash a whole country because there are some unscrupulous traders or business people there.  Unsavory people are found all over the globe, perhaps including your own community.


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## FOMOGO (Mar 13, 2022)

Definitely a mix of ok, and not so much. I've had good luck with a few of their power tools, most notably the portable electric pipe threader. Bought two of them when I was running a lot of black pipe, thinking it wouldn't last at one tenth the price of a Rigid unit. It was still running fine ten years later when I sold the business, and I still have the backup. Toolboxes (US General) have good reviews. Mike


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## Bi11Hudson (Mar 13, 2022)

Just to keep things in perspective, we must think back forty years or more. Today 'mainland China', the PRC, is where Japan was way back when. Today, Mitutoyo is the 'world standard' for measuring instruments, upsetting even Starrett or Brown & Sharpes. When I was active duty military in the late '60s and early '70s, the label "Made in Japan" meant junque. Measuring tools weren't even good for carpentry work. If you showed up on a machine job, not as a machinist, just as a journeyman mechanic, Japanese tools told the boss you were a kid trying to sneak into the field.

Those who can remember 45 years ago, when most every gas station had a "GlobeMaster" 99 cents tool bin near the register. Well, today's GlobeMaster is now Harbor Freight. Mainland China is today's Japan. Some good stuff from PRC, but you ain't gonna find it at HF. Those 99 cent tools are today's $10 tool, but that's a whole 'nuther subject, taboo here. I have a lathe made in Taiwan, a Grizzly 1550. The same style machine from PRC is half the price, and not even half as good. The HF machine can be made as good as one from Taiwan, but by the time it is brought up to snuff, the cost is double that of a machine from Taiwan. Give 'em twenty or thirty years or so. . . 

.


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## C-Bag (Mar 13, 2022)

I feel the same in a certain way, but I think we live now of universal gaslighting because nobody seems to remember ANYTHING. First there was the laws like NAFTA and those of us who were Union KNEW what that meant. All our jobs were going to Mexico, Canada and then Korea and China. So if American co’s are fighting to bust up the laws so they can off shore then bring it back with no tariff and still sell it for what it used to be made here, or more, why in the world should I be loyal to them? Sure the ones that stayed and didn’t off shore and pay a decent wage are worth being loyal to but who is that? None of the tool makers I know of.


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## tq60 (Mar 13, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> There's a love hate relationship with HF. You can get some attractively priced merchandise there in more than a few "departments". There's also a lot of stuff that is just plain junk. If you have a discerning eye, then you can pick up a few items.
> 
> I have done well on occasion and also been burned. Wrenches and sockets were decently priced. However, HF is not a good place to buy a single socket anymore. If you need to turn a socket into a hex insert, or one of your 10mm sockets has gone into hiding, forget it. I found this out recently, trying to buy a single socket for a 1" bolt. They're phasing out having individual sockets.
> 
> ...


Just re-cut existing.

It may correct the error with minimal loss of length if close

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## WobblyHand (Mar 13, 2022)

tq60 said:


> Just re-cut existing.
> 
> It may correct the error with minimal loss of length if close
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


Taper not even close.  HF dies were almost no taper.  More like BSPP, than NPT.  Cut male threads screwed easily nearly all the way into female couplings (within a thread).  Don't know why I didn't recognize it, maybe there were a lot of distractions going on.  Normal NPT threads get tight around midway.  

Honestly don't want any of those substandard HF threads on my airlines.  Too much work installing the lines to put up with that kind of risk.  I want to do the work once this time.


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## Navy Chief (Mar 13, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> There is a HF only 5 minutes from my house. I purposely avoid it because the items sold are low quality.
> 
> I have gone there when I was flat broke, & needed some grinding wheels, files, or the like just to finish one job.
> 
> ...


Their US General toolboxes and cabinets are a good buy, they are good quality for the money. There are good buys there, but you have to look closely at whatever you are considering .

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## ConValSam (Mar 13, 2022)

The only thing I buy lots of from HF are clamps. You can never have enough and the quality for the price can't be beat.


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## homebrewed (Mar 13, 2022)

I have purchased a fair number of items from HF but I always take a look at the product reviews if it costs more than about $10.  As a result there have been a whole bunch of things I just went elsewhere for:  or decided I really didn't need whatever it was anyway.

There also have been some HF purchases that fall into the "never again" category.  One is their 3-pack of zero-flute countersinks.  I think they would dull if used on balsa wood.  Another is their cheap knockoff X-Acto knife-like set.  The "collet" on the handles is made from plastic and fails almost instantly.


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## Winegrower (Mar 13, 2022)

I’ve been very happy with the HF engine hoist and the 20 ton arbor press, not to mention little gizmos like 2” straps, rubber gloves, etc.   Nobody makes me buy there, so I must be a satisfied customer.

Edit:  and, there is a new HF store opening in Auburn, 20 miles away.   Better that than more Dollar General stores.


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## WobblyHand (Mar 13, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> I’ve been very happy with the HF engine hoist and the 20 ton arbor press, not to mention little gizmos like 2” straps, rubber gloves, etc.   Nobody makes me buy there, so I must be a satisfied customer.


Despite my earlier post, I am too.  For the most part, my purchases have been satisfactory.  Some of them have been very good or excellent.  I have an engine hoist, and an engine stand, some jack stands, loads of wrenches and sockets, clamps, a couple of rolling toolboxes, a 1000lb hydraulic table, a couple of 4-1/2" grinders, big casters, furniture movers, and a bunch of other stuff.  These items are perfectly good for what I need them to do.  

I've not deluded myself into thinking that everything is good there.  Every item I buy has to pass my "QC test", or at least look like it would be serviceable for the task.  Some items don't pass the sniff test, they look too skimpy to work well.  I did modify the jack stands, by adding additional weld material on the seams.  Looked like inadequate penetration and insufficient bead length to me.  I couldn't even buy the raw materials for what I paid for the pair of jack stands.  A quick couple of welds on the seam and adding some better footpads made these stands pretty decent.

Have to admit, I was fooled by the pipe threading kit.  Wasn't expecting bad undersized thread profiles...


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## graham-xrf (Mar 13, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> They are now offering lifetime replacement on their hand tools, something Craftsman used to do. I have bought some of their combination wrenches and impact sockets, which have been of decent quality. Then there is the ubiquitous 4x6 bandsaw, which no home shop should be without. They have made significant steps to improve the quality of their tools in recent years, with a comensurate increase in prices.


It was the bandsaw, or at least the equivalent to be found in UK, that was one of things I wanted.


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## graham-xrf (Mar 13, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> There's a love hate relationship with HF.  You can get some attractively priced merchandise there in more than a few "departments".  There's also a lot of stuff that is just plain junk.  If you have a discerning eye, then you can pick up a few items.
> 
> I have done well on occasion and also been burned.  Wrenches and sockets were decently priced.  However, HF is not a good place to buy a single socket anymore.  If you need to turn a socket into a hex insert, or one of your 10mm sockets has gone into hiding, forget it.  I found this out recently, trying to buy a single socket for a 1" bolt.  They're phasing out having individual sockets.
> 
> ...


Ouch! That was a bad day when you discovered it.
You prompt me. I had forgotten about the rolling tool cabinets with slider drawers.


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## WobblyHand (Mar 13, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> Ouch! That was a bad day when you discovered it.
> You prompt me. I had forgotten about the rolling tool cabinets with slider drawers.


It sure was.  Especially when I realized all the joints were defective and leaking.  Wouldn't have been as big a deal in an empty space, but in an extremely packed room, it was a downer.  Come summertime, I'll move everything out of the space and redo the plumbing.

Rolling tool cabinets with slider drawers are a great way to organize your tooling.  Strongly recommended.  
US General brand at HF are very high quality and a exceptional value for their cost.  Hope you can find a similar value over there.


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## jwmay (Mar 13, 2022)

After spending a few minutes in the garage, I feel like I should admit that I can look across one wall in my garage and count over twenty items I bought there. Maybe I just already bought everything they had that I wanted, so I'm forgetting how much I've spent there.
Having never been where you live, it's hard to know if I'd miss  HF.  But I've got a lot of stuff from there.
I think they must offer a good trade off.


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## Aaron_W (Mar 13, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> It sure was.  Especially when I realized all the joints were defective and leaking.  Wouldn't have been as big a deal in an empty space, but in an extremely packed room, it was a downer.  Come summertime, I'll move everything out of the space and redo the plumbing.
> 
> Rolling tool cabinets with slider drawers are a great way to organize your tooling.  Strongly recommended.
> US General brand at HF are very high quality and a exceptional value for their cost.  Hope you can find a similar value over there.



It really surprises me that the US General chests are HF only, considering how many other items can more or less be found at Grizzly, Eastwood, Northern Tool etc. I could see a HF only deal in the US, but you would think whoever manufactures the tool chests for them would push them in other countries where HF doesn't have a presence. They are significantly better than anything else I've looked at in the same general price range. Even the cheaper Yukon tool chests seem pretty decent, at least as good as other the box store brands.

Like anything, you have to look at what you are getting. Their wood clamps are cheap, but they are cheap. They are functional with a bit of care, probably wouldn't last a week in a busy shop but for the occasional project they work.  I can buy 5 or 6 of the 36" clamps for the price of one Irwin clamp (which itself is a lower/mid grade brand). If I were building a lot of stuff needing clamps that large, yeah buy better, I have much better quality clamps in smaller sizes since they get used a lot more frequently, but 36" might get used a couple times a year at best.


It is very easy to say it is all crap except for... but when you start looking at the internet favorites there is actually a lot there that is popular, either as is or as good bones for improving.

The tool chests, 4x6" and 7x11" bandsaws, engine hoists, hydraulic presses, 1 ton arbor press, and a lot of the metal working tools, sheet metal brake, benders etc.


HF is also much more desirable for somebody equipping a shop from scratch. If you already have a shop and just need a sheet metal brake, or a bandsaw then it not that hard to hunt around for something used that is better. If you are starting from nothing and don't have an unlimited budget then with HF you can at least set up a basic shop with cheap but adequate tools, and then start to replace them over time as you start to find their limitations. Easy to say buy once, cry once but when applied to a whole shop that can be the difference between actually having a shop to work in tomorrow vs 10 years from now.


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## Larry42 (Mar 13, 2022)

I've got one of their rolling tool cabinets. It is very good, cheaper than very similar items sold at the big box stores. About 30 years ago I bought one of their 20 ton hydraulic presses. Not perfect and have done a couple of mods but it's been fine. It is much heavier built than the ones they now sell. The 4x6 bandsaw after some mods is a good deal for the hobby shop. Had mine for about 30 years. Some of their stuff is pure junk, some actually more expensive than the good stuff at the industrial suppliers. Their sales used to be a lot better than now. I go right by a HF store almost every day, might stop there once a month.


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## Aaron_W (Mar 13, 2022)

I like their 2-4lb Engineers hammers (mini-sledge) too, they are good general purpose whomping hammers and cheap enough that who cares if it suffers a mishap or your kid steals it for his Thor costume.


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## matthewsx (Mar 13, 2022)

When I worked there it was a regular Monday morning occurrence to have a tradesman come in crying that his truck had been broken into and all his tools stolen. We got them back out working at a fraction of the price of “good” tools. No doubt some came back broken but mostly they got the job done.

In today’s world of ordering online it’s easy to buy junk from anywhere, including counterfeits of name brands. If I have to ship something back for any reason that’s way more of a hassle for me than driving 20 minutes to Harbor Freight and possibly going up one level for something that works.

Back when I was young it was Sears Craftsman for lifetime guarantee tools, not so much anymore and more important there’s nobody there who understands the job I’m trying to do. HF usually has someone there who has actually used the tools and can tell you if it’ll do the job you need it for. They also have a manager that usually takes care of any complaints right there on the spot.

Harbor Freight is an American company that grew out of a need we have and continues to try and adapt. It’s the only nationwide tool chain store that I know of here. Do I buy my drill indexes there? No. But there are plenty of other things that I’ve bought for both business and personal use that still serve me well today.

Of course YMMV, but that’s my 2 cents on the subject.

John


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## Navy Chief (Mar 13, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> When I worked there it was a regular Monday morning occurrence to have a tradesman come in crying that his truck had been broken into and all his tools stolen. We got them back out working at a fraction of the price of “good” tools. No doubt some came back broken but mostly they got the job done.
> 
> In today’s world of ordering online it’s easy to buy junk from anywhere, including counterfeits of name brands. If I have to ship something back for any reason that’s way more of a hassle for me than driving 20 minutes to Harbor Freight and possibly going up one level for something that works.
> 
> ...


Don't waste your money on the new Craftsman tools Lowes is carrying. I picked up a couple of sockets when they first got them, it fit is unbelievably sloppy on both ends. Pittsburgh from harbor freight are better quality. 

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## IamNotImportant (Mar 13, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> HF is also much more desirable for somebody equipping a shop from scratch. If you already have a shop and just need a sheet metal brake, or a bandsaw *then it not that hard to hunt around for something used that is bette*r. If you are starting from nothing and don't have an unlimited budget then with HF you can at least set up a basic shop with cheap but adequate tools, and then start to replace them over time as you start to find their limitations. Easy to say buy once, cry once but when applied to a whole shop that can be the difference between actually having a shop to work in tomorrow vs 10 years from now.


that depends on what area of the country you live..


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## Bi11Hudson (Mar 13, 2022)

Having digressed into threading pipe, I would add a thought. In addition to American and English pipe threads, there is one that is essentially a straight thread. Most times people use NPT for conduit. The NEC allows this. But technically, there is a conduit thread that doesn't taper. Only where the thread starts is tapered. It could well be that the questionable pipe dies are actually mislabeled conduit dies. The thread pitch is the same, it just doesn't taper. As for thread 'size', it probably falls about half way up a tapered thread.

Looking at a scedule 40 rigid *conduit* coupling, the straight thread can be seen inside. It is not the coupling that forms an electrical connection, rather screwing in the two joints of pipe until they butt. It has been a long time since I ran rigid conduit, but have made many fittings between stationary enclosures where one end of the pipe was threaded several inches. (Control cabinets on cranes) The thread is easy to cut on a large threading machine, but portable pipe dies cut a little small. 

When it has to be watertight, a conduit thread has to be tight. Tapered threads are allowed, but conduit threads are better. In a splash proof and further enclosure, the rigid is screwed into a "hub" that is gasketed. For inside cranes, a gasketed lock nut was used. There are numerous NEMA enclosure ratings that are further broken down by the method of conduit entry. Whether it is EMT (3 types), lock nuts, gasketed lock nuts, or hubs for rigid will all modify the final rating. Complex beyond my comprehension. . .

.


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## Aaron_W (Mar 13, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> When I worked there it was a regular Monday morning occurrence to have a tradesman come in crying that his truck had been broken into and all his tools stolen. We got them back out working at a fraction of the price of “good” tools. No doubt some came back broken but mostly they got the job done.
> 
> In today’s world of ordering online it’s easy to buy junk from anywhere, including counterfeits of name brands. If I have to ship something back for any reason that’s way more of a hassle for me than driving 20 minutes to Harbor Freight and possibly going up one level for something that works.
> 
> ...



A lot of people get hung up on a lot of HF stuff being made in China, and I get that, I buy USA when it is a realistic option. Reality is HF and Walmart do not have the corner on Chinese made stuff, it is everywhere these days even Ace Hardware and MSC. 



IamNotImportant said:


> that depends on what area of the country you live..



Just meant if you only need one tool you can be a lot more selective, than trying to building up a whole shop from nothing. If you live somewhere where it is hard to find one decent tool, then trying to find 10 will be even more fun.


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## WobblyHand (Mar 13, 2022)

Bi11Hudson said:


> It could well be that the questionable pipe dies are actually mislabeled conduit dies.


Maybe.  If I can find the dies again, I will check them.  That is if I didn't toss them in a fit of anger.  Honestly, don't remember what I did with them.  Was pretty sore about it as it was a waste of a couple days of hard work.  As you can plainly tell, I'm still mad about it!  The HF item was sold as an NPT threading set.  I know where my good dies are, not so sure about the _questionable_ ones.  I'll have to search for them and make sure they are not next to the good ones!


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## graham-xrf (Mar 14, 2022)

Bi11Hudson said:


> Having digressed into threading pipe, I would add a thought. In addition to American and English pipe threads, there is one that is essentially a straight thread. Most times people use NPT for conduit. The NEC allows this. But technically, there is a conduit thread that doesn't taper. Only where the thread starts is tapered. It could well be that the questionable pipe dies are actually mislabeled conduit dies. The thread pitch is the same, it just doesn't taper. As for thread 'size', it probably falls about half way up a tapered thread.
> 
> Looking at a scedule 40 rigid *conduit* coupling, the straight thread can be seen inside. It is not the coupling that forms an electrical connection, rather screwing in the two joints of pipe until they butt. It has been a long time since I ran rigid conduit, but have made many fittings between stationary enclosures where one end of the pipe was threaded several inches. (Control cabinets on cranes) The thread is easy to cut on a large threading machine, but portable pipe dies cut a little small.
> 
> ...


I have not looked close, but NPT and BSPT may even be the same. I have always known that the BSP was parallel, and BSPT was tapered, and tapered was supposedly what you needed to form a water or pressure seal. It relied on the metal deformation. There may even be types where the male and female parts of the threads are fractionally different pitch, to ensure they bind up. The really, really damn clever version of this is known to us all in the ES (Edison Screw) light bulb thread that guarantees good electrical contact.

Especially important in brass fittings, a whole class of these came with either a groove for a O-Ring by the head, or a flat face to go up against a Dowty seal. Of course, we all use the PTFE tape to cold-flow into the gaps, but I see a whole range of taper fittings come with some kind of white plastic already coated onto the threads.

I have a nice set of parallel taps and dies for threading 20mm, and 1" steel pipe, used for installing the no-compromise galavanized conduit for electrical cables going through spaces they can get hurt, (like factories). It saw one usage, on one job, and has not moved since.


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## sdelivery (Mar 14, 2022)

I drive right on by...if the UK could use a Harbor Fright I  would be very happy to send ours....


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## RJSakowski (Mar 14, 2022)

To be or not to be, that is the question.  

I, for one, would rather have a store that I would never use than not to have one when I wanted/needed it.  A store like HF helps to set a bar for other stores to keep their prices reasonable.  Whether the quality is up to par is immaterial.  Some people are going to buy it regardless.  If everyone was forced to buy name brand products as the only option, the demand would go up and prices would follow.

Beware the ides of March!


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## WobblyHand (Mar 14, 2022)

While we are off marching to a different drummer... Happy Pi day!  March 14.  
3.14159... ad infinitum


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## graham-xrf (Mar 14, 2022)

My thanks to all of you!
It seems we all like the convenience, and the fact it is there as a fallback, and that it keeps other vendors from hiking their prices too far.
One underlying theme I sense is that we all have a bunch of stuff  that came from China, but that we would rather it were not that way.


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## graham-xrf (Mar 14, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> While we are off marching to a different drummer... Happy Pi day!  March 14.
> 3.14159... ad infinitum


Yep - for me "Pi" means the tiny little computer that performs like a champ!
I never quite got it why some would expend so much of their lives figuring out ever more digits of this irrational!

For me, even when at school, I used 355/113. It startled teacher, but he could hardly argue.
355/113  = 3.14159292035
Actual Pi = 3.14159265359
The error in this is 2.66763982239e-07
Good Lord!  Just how accurate do you want to get?

A 35-digit number is enough to place an atom on Saturn! Why do we know millions of Pi digits? Crazy!
[Sorry - I got distracted there!   ]


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## RJSakowski (Mar 14, 2022)

My worst cheapo tap and die set came from a local farm supply store.  They had full sets of both Imperial and metric taps and dies for ridiculously low prices.  On the package, it stated HSS so I figured what the heck and bought one of each.  I was not disillusioning myself into thinking that I was getting any kind of quality but figured that they would be a good backup out in the forge or barn for chasing threads and I wouldn't have to run back to the shop for my good set.  

When I got the sets home, the first  thing I did was a spark test and they were definitely not HSS. They were high carbon steel but not file hard.  Needless to say, they would not cut steel.  Plastic, OK.  Aluminum and brass, maybe.  The metric set had four non-standard sizes; M3-.5mm, M4-.75mm, M5-.9mm, and M7-.75mm.  Crazy!

I took the Imperial set back  but, because I had done some destructive testing on the metric set, I kept it.  The threads seem to be well formed and the cutting edges are sharp.  At some point, when I have some time, I may try to harden and temper them and maybe make something useful out of it.


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## RJSakowski (Mar 14, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> While we are off marching to a different drummer... Happy Pi day!  March 14.
> 3.14159... ad infinitum


I take exception to this.  Why are we celebrating "pi" and never "e". 

Euler's constant,"e", (2.7182818....), is actually far more common in the real world than pi.  Used to describe things like snail shell growth, chemical reactions, radioactive decay, capacitor discharge, population growth, and the motion of a weight hanging on a spring.  Not to mention, the bell curve, and electromagnetic radiation.

In fact, pi can be calculated from e.

It's discrimination, I tell you.  e should have it's day.


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## C-Bag (Mar 14, 2022)

HF used to be about 60% total duds/junk. But like with air tools I have a 1/2" impact that I bought in '80 and used as a line mech and it still works perfect. I thought I should upgrade and tried a Chicago Pneumatic and to my surprise it didn't work any better than my at the time 10yrld HF. I also have one of those HF die grinders and 2" abrasive "muffler cutters" from then and the die grinder finally quit last year. The vanes wore out, but nothing else. I've had my 4x6 since '80 also with the original motor having only replaced the guide bearings. My 9x20, 14" vertical band saw, 3n1, bead roller, shrinker stretcher, and two electric die grinders,12" Hercules miter saw are all HF and will outlast me. No problem. 

YMMV but this whole debate is moot as far as the UK goes as I doubt nobody is going to put in a HF because of the BS you have to go through to import now with Br***t. I've had to quit selling in the UK because over a year ago they instituted a bureaucratic nightmare where they required me to purchase a license, retain a importer, collect taxes and keep paperwork on every transaction and every 3mo remit said taxes and paperwork to the "crown". Ain't gonna happen, sorry UK. 

My customers who inquired then I referred them to my EU dealers reported back none of them will ship to the UK either. The EU similarly instituted a law that only applies to direct sales but my dealers are exempt because they are tax exempt because they pay the taxes at point of sale. I have sent two direct sales before I got notice of this change. One to France, one to Portugal. The French order disappeared and he got his $$ back from PayPal and I got bubkiss. The one to Portugal said was "undeliverable" and took 6mo to come back and I refunded him.


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## wachuko (Mar 14, 2022)

We have one close by... As others have mentioned, you have to take a good look at the items before you buy.  I find that their price increases and now the lack of coupons, as they had before, some items are no longer attractively priced...  So lately, I have been buying elsewhere.

But before they got rid of the coupons... I got a lot of stuff from them... specially things I would use once or twice and did not wanted to spend top dollar for the alternatives...

Anyway, some of the stuff I bought that continues to served me well:

1. The first hydraulic table I got.  Paid 139.00 for it at the time... Made removing and installing engines so much easier.  I did have to redo the plug as the stock one kept leaking, but once that was fixed, it kept working fine.
2. Engine hoist, 2-Ton - not much use, but great to have it available when I need it.
3. Several engine stands.   I have 4. I bought 3 from HF.  The one that is not from them I got from Summit Racing... as I wanted one that would work with the hydraulic table... easier for it to go in with the leg setup of the engine stand.  Wish I had know, I would love to have all with the same setup.
4. This mechanic tool set.  I have one in each vehicle.  For 89.00 when I bought it, it was a great value.
5. 3 in. High Speed Air Cut-off Tool - One of the most used tool in my garage...
6.  Butterfly air impact wrench - This compact air tool has been with me for over 15 years and still working fine... I do not see it listed anymore at their site...


7. The free magnetic trays... got several of those.
8. Transmission jack... got it when it was 59.00
9. Aluminum motorcycle jack... again, got it when it was fairly inexpensive...
10. Aluminum floor jack... I have their 1.5 and 3 ton jacks.  On the second 1.5 jack... 3 ton still working fine after 10-15 years.

Stuff that sucked for me:
1. Mechanic roller seats... these do not last long... I have gone through several of these...
2. Slide hammer puller set... break easy, pure carp
3. Pistol grip air shears - carp, carp, carp... Now I see that they have the replacement blades available... I need to see if I got rid of it, if not, I might just fix it one more time and use for cutting paper 


Many more tools that I could list...

I am looking at a couple of their rolling tool boxes... that will be my next purchase from them


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## graham-xrf (Mar 14, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> HF used to be about 60% total duds/junk. But like with air tools I have a 1/2" impact that I bought in '80 and used as a line mech and it still works perfect. I thought I should upgrade and tried a Chicago Pneumatic and to my surprise it didn't work any better than my at the time 10yrld HF. I also have one of those HF die grinders and 2" abrasive "muffler cutters" from then and the die grinder finally quit last year. The vanes wore out, but nothing else. I've had my 4x6 since '80 also with the original motor having only replaced the guide bearings. My 9x20, 14" vertical band saw, 3n1, bead roller, shrinker stretcher, and two electric die grinders,12" Hercules miter saw are all HF and will outlast me. No problem.
> 
> YMMV but this whole debate is moot as far as the UK goes as I doubt nobody is going to put in a HF because of the BS you have to go through to import now with Br***t. I've had to quit selling in the UK because over a year ago they instituted a bureaucratic nightmare where they required me to purchase a license, retain a importer, collect taxes and keep paperwork on every transaction and every 3mo remit said taxes and paperwork to the "crown". Ain't gonna happen, sorry UK.
> 
> My customers who inquired then I referred them to my EU dealers reported back none of them will ship to the UK either. The EU similarly instituted a law that only applies to direct sales but my dealers are exempt because they are tax exempt because they pay the taxes at point of sale. I have sent two direct sales before I got notice of this change. One to France, one to Portugal. The French order disappeared and he got his $$ back from PayPal and I got bubkiss. The one to Portugal said was "undeliverable" and took 6mo to come back and I refunded him.


Indeed! Regarding Brexit, it always about something else than economics, and we are steadily seeing the results.
There is quite a lot that I choose to import, almost regardless, like both my welders. It's not that stuff is not manufactured here - but not so much other than very high end specialist big business investments. Since before the millennium, the push for govt. was to move the land to a "high-value service economy", whatever that is. This trickle-down stuff has not worked! Despite the proliferation of beauty shops and food outlets, there is a limit to how many can be someone else's hairdresser, (or whatever).

We don't have a all tools store chain equivalent to HF in UK. From the responses, I guess we won't miss it much.

More particularly about import complexity, those that be, in UK, have long thought it a good wheeze to make the public do their tax collecting, and other related tasks, for them, under the guise of a "more efficient" computer system. I think their aim is to have it all automatic, only going "ka-ching" for them. The same for import arrangements. They try to push all of it onto the sellers. This is why I suddenly find I have "an account" at FedEX, and I am supposed to "register" and "log in", and become "part of their community", and all that crap, when what actually happened is the seller (of a welder) had to make upstream arrangements (with FedEx) and move the VAT and import duties into a special account, which I get to pay into without the remotest chance of ever communicating with a human!

I don't blame you for not exporting to UK. I note also that Stefan (Gotteswinter) will only bo business with EU countries, and those that have good arrangements with EU. I don't blame him either. There may not now be enough UK manufactured tools and suchlike stuff to support a country-wide store chain equivalent of Harbor Freight. I don't really want to be permanently buying Chinese from Banggood or eBay, but now, I also can't aspire to good stuff from Shars, etc.

[Edit: As from 4th April, all businesses are required to interface whatever accounting software they have, including spreadsheets, via a list of certain software providers approved, to somehow submit all their business accounts electronically, for VAT and tax calculation. We are not talking accountants summary accounts. They mean _every_ transaction. The scheme is mind-bogglingy misinformed from the outset, and I think it may flop at the first try. Needless to say, later this month, I will be de-registering for VAT. It does mean that this month, I shop for all sorts of machine tool items to claim the last VAT on.

OK - so no Harbor Freight to go shopping at, but I think I can manage to find a 6 x 4 bandsaw, compressor, pillar drill, etc. 

and .. they can stick their tax collection software up where it fits best! ]


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## RJSakowski (Mar 14, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> Indeed! Regarding Brexit, it always about something else than economics, and we are steadily seeing the results.
> There is quite a lot that I choose to import, almost regardless, like both my welders. It's not that stuff is not manufactured here - but not so much other than very high end specialist big business investments. Since before the millennium, the push for govt. was to move the land to a "high-value service economy", whatever that is. This trickle-down stuff has not worked! Despite the proliferation of beauty shops and food outlets, there is a limit to how many can be someone else's hairdresser, (or whatever).
> 
> We don't have a all tools store chain equivalent to HF in UK. From the responses, I guess we won't miss it much.
> ...



Since virtually everything that HF sells is imported from China anyway, I doubt that would be much of an impediment to opening up shop there.  I'm sure that an organization as large as theirs would have the logistical capability to deal with it.


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## Gnpenning (Mar 14, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> Indeed! Regarding Brexit, it always about something else than economics, and we are steadily seeing the results.
> There is quite a lot that I choose to import, almost regardless, like both my welders. It's not that stuff is not manufactured here - but not so much other than very high end specialist big business investments. Since before the millennium, the push for govt. was to move the land to a "high-value service economy", whatever that is. This trickle-down stuff has not worked! Despite the proliferation of beauty shops and food outlets, there is a limit to how many can be someone else's hairdresser, (or whatever).
> 
> We don't have a all tools store chain equivalent to HF in UK. From the responses, I guess we won't miss it much.
> ...




Seems to me that the good Old colonists had a problem with the British tax system as well.  Separation was  painful but worth it.


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## Larry42 (Mar 14, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> I have not looked close, but NPT and BSPT may even be the same. I have always known that the BSP was parallel, and BSPT was tapered, and tapered was supposedly what you needed to form a water or pressure seal.


I've got machines that use Metric pneumatics which are the British std. 1/4 & 3/8" are *19 tpi,* 1/2 & 3/4 are 14tpi., 1 to 2" are *11tpi*. Compare that to the NPT 1/4" are *18tpi*, 1/2" are 14tpi, 1" are *11 1/2 tpi.* You can see where it is very easy to go wrong! On top of that the British standard is a Whitworth thread form. The BS and NPT will go into each other and seal with tape or dope, *usually*. The metric machines I've maintained have always had a plastic seal under the head of the male component. Likely because the internal thread is the BS parallel thread.


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## RandyWilson (Mar 14, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> My thanks to all of you!
> It seems we all like the convenience, and the fact it is there as a fallback, and that it keeps other vendors from hiking their prices too far.
> One underlying theme I sense is that we all have a bunch of stuff  that came from China, but that we would rather it were not that way.



Come in late, and I'm not going to read the 6 pages of comments. What you need to know about Harbor Freight is they have multiple levels of quality, and have been phasing out the cheaper stuff (and the coupons) over the last few years.  As an example, the detractors will gleefully tell you about the $50 8" bench grinder that has runout in the wheels. They won't mention the $135 8" grinder with variable speed and proper tool rests sitting right beside it. The loud complaining is always accompanied by the "I haven't gone there in years" statement.


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## 7milesup (Mar 16, 2022)

I mirror Randy's sentiments.
I went to HF years ago to purchase some items when I didn't have much money.  Some of the stuff worked well, other items weren't worth taking home.  Ironically, I have a set of deep impact sockets that I bought there a couple of decades ago, and they have been flawless.  Their $20 digital calipers work "ok", but finally bought Mitutoyo due to the unreliability of the HF brand.  I still have a few around though for just banging around in the shop.
If you haven't visited HF in a while, you will be surprised by the quality.  Sure, as Randy mentioned, they still have some crap, but they now have some very nice tools.  I recently outfitted our work area at my place of employment with nearly all HF stuff.  *BUT*, almost all of it was their Icon brand.  If you have not used one of their Icon branded products, you are missing out.  I was introduced to their Icon brand one evening when replacing the wheel bearings in my wife's car.  I needed a 14mm offset box wrench.  No one else had one so I had her pick up the $50 Icon set on the way home.  They also had a $20 Pittsburgh set, which I passed on.  To say I was impressed with the Icon would be an understatement.  
I also own the 3500 Predator Quiet Generator.   It has been flawless the last few years and has powered my house numerous times when the power went out.  I own the small Ultra Quiet 2 gallon air compressor for trim work.  Recently purchased the Hercules 12" sliding compound miter saw which has also been flawless.  Hate to say it but that saw replaced my Bosch 10".  I also own one of their US General tool boxes, although mine is rather old, with the new ones being significantly better than mine.

In the end,  I look pragmatically at what I would like to purchase from them and what are other options.  Truthfully, a lot of  "name brand" tools are made in China and to the same or less quality as the HF stuff, especially their Icon line, but because of that Dewalt or Milwaukee name, it will cost you more.

Oh, their Bauer branded cut-off and grinding disks are a great value.


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