# So I want a tool and cutter grinder…



## Christianstark (Sep 24, 2022)

Don’t really NEED it, but it really like to be able to make my own cutting tools. 

I think I would love to make a Quorn, so I’m torn between the Mk III kit from Hemingway, or just get a functioning Shars unit with all the fixings for about the same cost.

Thoughts?

OR talk me into a hot shot oven instead… my birthday is coming up


----------



## C-Bag (Sep 24, 2022)

Do you use HSS end mills?


----------



## ddickey (Sep 24, 2022)

Now is the time to buy anything for the UK.


----------



## Christianstark (Sep 24, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> Do you use HSS end mills?



I would. Right now I have some carbide end mills and insert facemills, but would love the capability of being able to sharpen. I have a Few HSS cutters I don’t use because they are dull. Got them as a used lot.


----------



## Christianstark (Sep 24, 2022)

ddickey said:


> Now is the time to buy anything for the UK.



No doubt!


----------



## C-Bag (Sep 24, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> I would. Right now I have some carbide end mills and insert facemills, but would love the capability of being able to sharpen. I have a Few HSS cutters I don’t use because they are dull. Got them as a used lot.


99% of my end mills are HSS. 80% of them I got with my well used mill drill and all of them were dull. I decided on a Chinese copy of a Deckel tool grinder. It was similar to I think what you are talking about when you say Shars. I think that’s the nicer version as it uses 5c collet where mine uses R8. The original Deckel used smaller metric collets as it was designed to sharpen single lip cutter. Not good for the size end mills I use. I was able to resurrect over 15 end mills and sharpen my original Chinese set of end mills. It’s not something I do every day because it seems my sharpening seems to last longer than original grinds. I don’t live where I can just go in and buy an end mill so it has really convenient to not only sharpen but also do custom grinds.

I have a diamond wheel and have sharpened my solid carbide cutters on the Checkel but mostly I use my bench tool grinder for the brazed boring bars etc.


----------



## Christianstark (Sep 24, 2022)

Sounds like you may be a vote for a Chekle in lieu of a quorn project. 



C-Bag said:


> 99% of my end mills are HSS. 80% of them I got with my well used mill drill and all of them were dull. I decided on a Chinese copy of a Deckel tool grinder. It was similar to I think what you are talking about when you say Shars. I think that’s the nicer version as it uses 5c collet where mine uses R8. The original Deckel used smaller metric collets as it was designed to sharpen single lip cutter. Not good for the size end mills I use. I was able to resurrect over 15 end mills and sharpen my original Chinese set of end mills. It’s not something I do every day because it seems my sharpening seems to last longer than original grinds. I don’t live where I can just go in and buy an end mill so it has really convenient to not only sharpen but also do custom grinds.
> 
> I have a diamond wheel and have sharpened my solid carbide cutters on the Checkel but mostly I use my bench tool grinder for the brazed boring bars etc.


----------



## GT-6 Racer (Sep 24, 2022)

Tool and cutter grinding is a deep subject.  My advice is decide what you really want to do.  It ranges from the Shars you mentioned to a Cincinnati monoset and everything in between.  I have an Alexander SO clone and a very old covel T&C grinder.  Both are very useful.  I’d recommend finding a well tooled up KOLee T&C grinder.   The tooling is everything.  Cincinnati grinders still command a premium price, but a Monoset would be fabulous.  With enough patience and practice you can sharpen or make anything.


----------



## C-Bag (Sep 24, 2022)

I am. I looked at several tool grinder set ups and decided against making it because I had too many other things to do. And it’s hard to make a tool to sharpen tools when all my tools are dull


----------



## GT-6 Racer (Sep 24, 2022)

I started with hss lathe and shaper tools on the T&C grinder.   Simple compound angles, not overly challenging to visualize and hold.  Performed and lasted better than freehand ground. I’ve only done engraving d-bits on the Alexander so far.  I hope to do the ends of end mills Soon.


----------



## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2022)

GT-6 Racer said:


> Tool and cutter grinding is a deep subject.


it is a very deep subject. Luckily I found a good website somewhere that ran down the different angles for different metals. So for cutting mild steel I use 5deg on the cutting edge of the end mill and 1deg of relief. I believe that’s what they call where the end are dished in the middle. Terminology has always tripped me up.

The thing the SO type and Kuorn don’t have and maybe the other T&C(certainly the monoset does) is an air bearing for grinding the flutes of end mills and and reamers. I was told it was impossible without it. The attachment for doing flutes on my Checkel was so sloppy it was crazy but I managed to cut down the flutes of random dull 8mm end mill I had to make a 5/16” out of it for some project I was doing. I tried rebushing the Checkel attachment to slide and have decent clearance but as soon as I started grinding and the inevitable dust got on it, even with seals it was a mess. I then bumped into a real air bearing and added it to the arsenal. It’s insane how good that works! And never gets fouled by the grinder dust. And before you go thinking “why not just add a air fitting and inject some air between the bushing?” Ain’t gonna work. Air bearings are also a REALLY deep subject.


----------



## Dabbler (Sep 25, 2022)

Grinding is only as deep as you want to make it.  I'm aware of all the angles for materials, and I have a single lip cutter grinder and a full sized T&C grinder, but fot I use my bench grinders more.  For all turnning with HSS I just grind 5-5-5 degrees and always works just fine for me.


----------



## 7milesup (Sep 25, 2022)

@Christianstark I, too, have been wanting a tool and cutter grinder for quite some time.   I have seen the large T&C grinders on auctions around here, but I feel like I don't know enough about the tooling to determine if I am buying a boat anchor.

A couple of years ago, I purchased plans *for the Acto Tool & Cutter Grinder.* I have not had the time to build it yet, but it is high on my list of projects. One of our members built one *and has a short thread on it here.* His has an air bearing on it too.


----------



## matthewsx (Sep 25, 2022)

What would you like to do with the Hot Shot? 

As always it comes down to the projects you want to do. Sharpening or making cutters is fine but how many would you go through if you just replaced them?

Seems like a good side hustle for someone on here with the tooling and desire to make the world a sharper place. 

I have a little machine I picked up a while ago, even made a fixture for doing end mills and drill bits but I haven’t run out of sharp tools yet. 

John


----------



## RWL (Sep 25, 2022)

I didn't look at the Shars, but owning three KO Lee tool and cutter grinders, I'm in the camp of buying a used KO Lee with the tooling you'd need for whatever you want to sharpen.  I don't know what used KO Lee's sell for now though, so that might make it impractical if they've gone up much more than the Shars.  Although Cincinnati is a well regarded name, their tool and cutter grinders take up an inordinate amount of space.  The KO Lees are the right size for a home shop.


----------



## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> For all turnning with HSS I just grind 5-5-5 degrees and always works just fine for me.


That’s what I’ve come to also.


----------



## Christianstark (Sep 26, 2022)

I'd like to be able to heat treat. I'd also like the capability to do precision grinding afterwards. The whole experience is a hobby to me, so Im not sure the old adage of "depends on what projects you have coming up" applies. I don't even need my lathe and milling machine. lol

Friends and family keep asking me why I have all the stuff I do, and I always tell them it's cheaper than the divorce that would certainly come, after spending my time and money on hookers and blow.



matthewsx said:


> What would you like to do with the Hot Shot?
> 
> As always it comes down to the projects you want to do. Sharpening or making cutters is fine but how many would you go through if you just replaced them?
> 
> ...


----------



## pontiac428 (Sep 26, 2022)

There is no substitute for a proper T&C, but the little Sheckel is limited only by two things, feed motions and swing.  With a little creativity, its versatility can be expanded.  One is with fixtures, the other is wheel geometry.  While you will never sharpen a tap or reamer on a D-bit grinder, you can do more than what is apparent at first glance.  I need a muffle furnace, but heating with a torch in a refractory chamber made from fire mortar and a paint can works pretty well with W-1 and O-1 steels.


----------



## C-Bag (Sep 26, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> There is no substitute for a proper T&C, but the little Sheckel is limited only by two things, feed motions and swing.  With a little creativity, its versatility can be expanded.  One is with fixtures, the other is wheel geometry.  While you will never sharpen a tap or reamer on a D-bit grinder, you can do more than what is apparent at first glance.  I need a muffle furnace, but heating with a torch in a refractory chamber made from fire mortar and a paint can works pretty well with W-1 and O-1 steels.
> 
> View attachment 421464
> 
> View attachment 421465


Creativity is key for me. I always seem to be trying to do something that is outside my experience/knowledge and can’t find the proper tool or fixture to do it. So have to make it. Having a bunch of different dull or broken bits and my Checkel has gotten me out of so many corners it is worth it to me as I could learn and mod them with no cost.

 If I had run upon a CutterMaster for around $1k I would have gone that route. Smaller, lighter , flexible and less footprint but at that time the used ones were around $2k+. Of course now I see them for like $1200 and a couple of times below $1k  Once I got hip to what I was looking at almost all T&C I was seeing used were stripped and basically useless without their attachments.

 All of this is hard to justify as you can buy a LOT of new end mills for that much. But then I’d be like so many with buckets full of dead cutters. And that just hurts my cheap soul.


----------



## matthewsx (Sep 26, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> I'd like to be able to heat treat. I'd also like the capability to do precision grinding afterwards. The whole experience is a hobby to me, so Im not sure the old adage of "depends on what projects you have coming up" applies. I don't even need my lathe and milling machine. lol
> 
> Friends and family keep asking me why I have all the stuff I do, and I always tell them it's cheaper than the divorce that would certainly come, after spending my time and money on hookers and blow.


I know some folks do tool grinding on their surface grinders, might be something to look into. 

John


----------



## Christianstark (Sep 26, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> I know some folks do tool grinding on their surface grinders, might be something to look into.
> 
> John


I don't have one of those yet either... ;-p


----------



## RWL (Sep 26, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> All of this is hard to justify as you can buy a LOT of new end mills for that much. But then I’d be like so many with buckets full of dead cutters. And that just hurts my cheap soul.



I don't want to come across as an enabler, but at least some of what we buy is because we want to play with the machine or the tool.  I don't make a living with my machines.  I bought most of them when opportunities arose in the economic downturn of 2008.  That was a great buying opportunity; I upgraded my entire shop and it's partially to explain for how I wound up with 3 T&C grinders.  Now each has its own setup so I don't have to fiddle each time I want to sharpen something different.  I don't use them a lot, but probably more often than my surface grinder.


----------



## Dabbler (Sep 26, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> I know some folks do tool grinding on their surface grinders, might be something to look into.


It takes about the same tooling as for a T&C grinder.  Some guys use their T&C grinder as a surface grinder.  They can share the same geometry (not al T&C grinders are created equal) but the SG is a little more planar/accurate.


----------



## C-Bag (Sep 26, 2022)

RWL said:


> I don't want to come across as an enabler, but at least some of what we buy is because we want to play with the machine or the tool.  I don't make a living with my machines.  I bought most of them when opportunities arose in the economic downturn of 2008.  That was a great buying opportunity; I upgraded my entire shop and it's partially to explain for how I wound up with 3 T&C grinders.  Now each has its own setup so I don't have to fiddle each time I want to sharpen something different.  I don't use them a lot, but probably more often than my surface grinder.


Oh I get it, I’ve got TAS(tool acquisition syndrome) bad. In my case I bought my machine tools to upgrade my in house manufacturing. Most of my life I had basic hand tools and often no shop/garage. Not to mention a x who kept us always in arrears no matter how hard I worked or overtime I put in. About the time she left my side hustle I’d been doing for almost 15yrs went live and I went to doing that full time.

Finally I had a garage and time I could dedicate to automating the process. But I had to build everything close to ground up all while putting out product. A life of doing without made me super critical about not over doing it and letting TAS get me in a financial hole. In a certain way my stuff is all parameters. How to make what I need contained in a 19x20 2 car garage and as cheaply as possible. The Checkel was a logical machine because truly time is $$ for me as I try to do production during the week and projects/upgrades on the weekends. So a dull endmill that could stall a repair or upgrade while I have to order a new one got real old quick. Overall it’s been a good move and worth it, or so I tell myself.


----------



## jwmelvin (Sep 26, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> I'd like to be able to heat treat. I'd also like the capability to do precision grinding afterwards. The whole experience is a hobby to me, so Im not sure the old adage of "depends on what projects you have coming up" applies. I don't even need my lathe and milling machine. lol
> 
> Friends and family keep asking me why I have all the stuff I do, and I always tell them it's cheaper than the divorce that would certainly come, after spending my time and money on hookers and blow.



This really resonates with me. I do enjoy producing things with my shop, but a lot of the benefit is my exploration and learning. 

A while back, I bought a Toolmaker grinder, which is sort of a lightweight hybrid tool grinder and surface grinder. I have used it a few times and it can be quite handy. I’m only starting to get the hang of sharpening cutting tools. But, for example, when I needed to use a taper pin, I was able to make a d-bit reamer that worked perfectly. 

More recently, I bought a Micromaster 618 surface grinder. I wanted the ability to work on some larger surfaces and having played with the Toolmaker a bit, manually grinding a substantial surface is not for me (the 618 is automatic). 

Anyhow, I’m sympathetic with your desire for a T&C grinder. The tooling is definitely a significant part of being able to use any grinder. My Toolmaker came with a bunch of the original Rockwell accessories. And I’ve acquired some fixtures that can help sharpen tools, like a Polychoke PC-101, which uses an eccentric spindle to create radial relief. Plus the fairly common fixtures for the ends of end mills. No air bearing yet.

Edit: oh, I’ve also come across a heat-treat oven and the few times I’ve used it so far have been supremely satisfying. I think it does go well with grinding capability.


----------



## Dabbler (Sep 26, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> This really resonates with me. I do enjoy producing things with my shop, but a lot of the benefit is my exploration and learning.


right on!  me too!


----------



## great white (Sep 26, 2022)

I just bought the “acute tool sharpening system” plans a couple days ago. I plan on building it some time this winter

Seems like a simple rig. Time will tell how well it works for sharpening end mills...


----------



## GeneT45 (Oct 19, 2022)

I have the Shars single-lip cutter grinder and like it quite a bit.  It's *not* a T&C grinder, but you can do a lot with it.  However, sharpening endmills is not one of them.  Making form cutters, sharpening drills, making boring bars, and thinning endmill shanks are relatively easy.  Stephen Gotteswinter has some great videos using his Deckel (IIRC) for various tasks on YouTube.  Sorry, I'm too new to be able to post links... ;-)

GsT


----------



## C-Bag (Oct 19, 2022)

GeneT45 said:


> However, sharpening endmills is not one of them.


How’s that? I do end mills on my Checkel and they come out great.


----------



## GeneT45 (Oct 19, 2022)

It doesn't seem accurate enough to me.  Perhaps you have a better machine.  Or perhaps I should clarify - you can sharpen the *ends* of endmills - just not the flutes.  

GsT


----------



## C-Bag (Oct 19, 2022)

I concur. But most times the flutes on mine are not dull. I did use my flute attachment and do the flutes on one end mill. It worked. What I’m calling a Checkel is a Chinese Deckel copy and I’m sure it’s not as nice as the Shars version. The only good thing is it’s the R8 collet version.


----------



## pontiac428 (Oct 20, 2022)

The Sheckel comes with a flute attachment that works very well.  With Norton stones they come out perfect.  2-6 flute end mill ends come out good, but you need to gash cut the facets on the face with a thin diamond wheel like you're supposed to.  So with the exception of adequate grinding wheels, the D-bit clone can do faces and flutes right out of the box.


----------



## Winegrower (Oct 20, 2022)

I have a Darex E90 that has an air bearing.  It’s pretty impressive, but still takes practice to develop a good technique.   For awhile I wrecked as many end mills as I saved.


----------



## Brucepts (Oct 20, 2022)

I bought a Shars grinder and am quite please with it. It was my pick of the bunch because it used 5C collets, now I have to build myself a small heat-treat furnace. I wish I had more time to play with it, only used it to make a few form tools for the lathe.

I'm going to have some neat stuff at my estate auction someday


----------



## pontiac428 (Oct 20, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> I have a Darex E90 that has an air bearing.  It’s pretty impressive, but still takes practice to develop a good technique.   For awhile I wrecked as many end mills as I saved.



I had to clean up some sprayed coffee after reading the second sentence, because it really jabbed my funny bone!  Yeah, one does not simply just unbox a tool and grind end mills.  The MACHINE is equipped to do so, it's still on you to figure it out.  Not everyone has the spatial skills to picture grinding operations and movements, those need to be developed.  You will ruin some end mills in the process, so practice on junk or stubs.  It's the operator that must be equipped, that part doesn't come with the package.  I thoroughly enjoy tool grinding, it's worth the investment.


----------



## C-Bag (Oct 20, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Not everyone has the spatial skills to picture grinding operations and movements,


This is so key. And it is spatial in the deepest sense.


----------



## Packard V8 (Nov 28, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Yeah, one does not simply just unbox a tool and grind end mills.  The MACHINE is equipped to do so, it's still on you to figure it out.  Not everyone has the spatial skills to picture grinding operations and movements, those need to be developed.


For true.  I got a steal deal on a Kao Ming/Jet, _et al_, T&C, did a thorough clean up of it, even bought a VFD for it and to this day, it's still sitting, waiting for me to make the time and pay the dues to learn how to use it.

jack vines


----------



## Christianstark (Nov 28, 2022)

Wife told me to go ahead and order the Quorn complete kit from Hemingway for my Birthday/Christmas/Hanukkah present, so I placed the order last week. They are hoping castings come in within the next week, and it will be on its way! Looking forward to the challenge. Hope I don’t $&@?! It all up!


----------



## Lo-Fi (Nov 28, 2022)

The Quorn is a seriously fun project, I've thoroughly enjoyed my build. A challenge but that's why it's so rewarding. 

Hemingway have been great supplying replacement castings. Mine is based on MK2 castings I bought from eBay (bought by somebody and never started), so was lacking some of the ali guard castings and suchlike. I also had trouble with the gunmetal pivot casting, party due to my momentary stupidity, but mainly because of a huge void inside it. The chap at Hemingway was more than happy to help, even though they didn't supply me a kit, and took an order over the phone for the bits I needed.

Please do start a build thread! I need to update mine once I've finished filling and painting the various bits prior to assembly.


----------

