# Have no idea what I'm doing, but want to learn!



## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

To preface: I have absolutely NO idea what I'm doing when it comes to machining. Nothing. I have never even seen a machine shop. I have no idea about terminology, technique, or proper practices.

What I do have is an interest in learning a little bit, and figuring out how to adequately describe what I hope to accomplish at the end of all of this.  And since I'm a complete and total newbie, I ask for a tad bit of forbearance and gentleness. I was reading on another forum (apparently for professional machinists, and they utterly reamed a guy to pieces for asking a simple question, and sadistically enjoyed doing it. That's just wrong, meanspirited, and uncalled for. We all were at a place once where we knew nothing, so please remember what that was like and remember that I don't already know what I'm doing. Thanks!

Now on to the fun part!

I am looking to describe two metal parts that I'd eventually like to get made, for a project I've been working on for a long time. Before I go any further, the nature of the project isn't relevant, nor is the final purpose for the metal parts relevant.  The reason I state this up front is, I've found that every time I try to describe the end result I'm looking for, everyone always stops thinking outside the box, and tells me that they can't do it, it won't work, it isn't possible, or it doesn't exist. I have found that if I just describe a thing in terms of what it's generalities are, and only give specifics where needed, I always arrive at the exact result I'm looking for. Process isn't relevant. End results are. So, describing what it is, and what it's going to be used for will change the way everyone thinks, and will prevent finding an efficient and workable solution. I have a lifetime of experience watching this happen over and over, and can give real, specific examples if asked to.

If these two metal parts were to be made out of wood, plastic, or any other material other than metal, it would be a very simple matter to describe them in very simple terms, and an even more simple matter to produce them at home, in the sanctity of the garage. However, in my research on metalworking, I've discovered that there is a significantly-greater demand for near-inhuman levels of precision. A brief example: if someone were to say to me, "I need a 1/4" hole in this thing, right about there" I would go to my garage, get a 1/4" drill bit, and drill the hole. From what I've found in the machinist's world, the hole has to be described to 0.0001" of precision both in terms of center-position and diameter. (slight exaggeration of numbers, sorry!).

Let me state up front that this kind of precision simply is neither required, nor necessary. I'm not making rocket parts! In my world, and for the purposes of this project, 1/64" of an inch is close enough.

I have a need for two small pieces of flat steel bar. I know there are hundreds, if not thousands of different alloys of steel, so this is one complicating issue for me. I don't know enough about how to accurately and adequately describe all the alloys, what they do, their properties, or anything about them. What I would like is a cheap, regular, plain steel that anyone can pick up anywhere, can be welded to a section of steel pipe I already have, and wouldn't cost a great deal. It doesn't have to be high-quality, rare-alloy, super-duper steel, just regular, plain, run-of-the-mill steel. Sorry for my ignorance. That's why I am here.

These two pieces will end up being 3-1/2" long (remember that I'm not dealing with microscopic measurements here) and 1" wide. One of them will be 1/4" thick, with one flat side, and the other will be 3/8" thick, with a rounded "groove" on one side. On the reverse side of both pieces are lengthwise grooves. They both have a matching set of 1/2" holes in them. Again, microscopic measurements aren't required.

My concern is, I don't know, or understand metalworking/machining terminology well enough to even begin to describe or even draw these shapes in terms that a hobbyist or even a professional shop would understand, because NASA-level precision simply isn't required.  I think in entirely different terms, and I'd like to learn enough to describe what I am looking for, in terms that are understandable in this world.

I have attached a very rough sketch of these shapes, which should make things much more simple, for the sake of discussion. There are no dimensions, or descriptions, just a drawing of the shapes. I hope this is an adequate starting point, for me to learn how to accurately describe them in terms understandable to a hobbyist. 




My ultimate goal is to find someone who would be willing to make them, without me having to mortgage my house or sell my car to pay for them. I'm not Bill Gates. 

Could I please start a discussion on how to detail these sketches to make them into drawings that could be used to actually make these pieces?

Thanks!


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## jwmelvin (Mar 2, 2019)

I like your question. You need to decide what is important. This is an issue of tolerancing. I can post more later but you could do some reading on the issue.


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## 4ssss (Mar 2, 2019)

I don't want to throw gas on your fire, but the last time I did a job like you want with someone that said " that's close enough" I ended up putting in over 35 hours on a job that should have been done in 4. It only ended after I had enough of his " close enough revisions", and told him to find someone else. Of course I didn't get paid if you're wondering. From that point on if there's no print or dimensioned sketch, there's not going to be any work done.


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## Shootymacshootface (Mar 2, 2019)

Those could eisily be made on a mill with common tooling.
Are you trying to learn how ro make these parts yourself?
If you want a machinist to make them for you, you just supply a blueprint or a drawings with dementions on it and let the machinist do what he does.


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## jwmelvin (Mar 2, 2019)

Some things do matter to you; I’m guessing you care that the grooves mate. So for that you might dimension from one peak to the next and designate that as typical. 

Also the holes seem likely to allow relative motion of some parts? Allowing for sufficient tolerance on diameter means the holes can be drilled instead of also reamed or bored. That makes a big difference. If the holes are, say +-0.010 then someone reading the drawing knows they may be drilled. 

The radiused back running along one of the parts looks to be the most difficult feature. Knowing the tolerance on radius is important. You said it would be welded to a pipe. I would think that a c-channel or a rectilinear recess rather than the radius would be better because it facilitates line contact for welding. But you don’t want that. Are you okay with the radius being more than that of the pipe? The tolerance will be driven by the tolerance of the pipe and your design considerations.


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## ttabbal (Mar 2, 2019)

Welcome. We're easy going around here, no worries about being new.

Sounds like you want a mild steel. 1018 or similar should work unless you have have high heat or other stress in the application.

Your picture looks simple enough. I would add a drawing generated from the same CAD model with dimensions. Don't worry about the precision you don't need. Give nominal dimensions like 1.5" and a note on the sheet stating the tolerance. +/-0.005 is pretty common. 1/64 is about 0.015. If the part needs to fit inside something else, you might want +0/-0.005. You also need to specify the radius of the curved part and the angle of the slots. The slots look like a typical 90 degree V, but if you want someone to build it, you need to tell them what it is.

A pro shop probably won't want the bother to set up for two single unit parts. So they give a high price. A hobbyist might be willing to make them for a reasonable price. It won't be free though. Saw that with some people thinking 3D printed parts should be super cheap.

I'm curious about how people would cut that radius. A fly cutter held at 90 degrees might work... A very large ball nose end mill..

4ssss makes a good point. Machinists work to the drawings. We aren't generally artists and revisions cost. For a hobby job I would require payment up front and make it clear that if the part meets the stated tolerance, that transaction is complete. If you want changes, that's a whole new conversation.


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> Could I please start a discussion on how to detail these sketches to make them into drawings that could be used to actually make these pieces?



All you need to do is add dimensions and tolerances.   If the drawings aren't clear the machinist will let you know what they are unclear on.

The drawings you've posted thus far have me totally wondering what size they are.   Are they 1/4" long?  4" long?  4 feet long?

Without dimensions on the drawing I have no idea what size these parts might be or whether I could even make them.  If they are 4" long (or in that ballpark) I might be able to deal with them.  If they are 1/4" long I really don't have tiny precision machines to deal with parts that small.   If they are 4 feet long, again, I don't have machines to handle work that large.   So until I see dimensions I have no clue what your parts are even like.

Edited to add:

Ok, never mind, I see you did call out demensions in the text.  So they are in the 4" ballpark.   That's certainly an easy size to work with.  Almost any hobbyist should be able to deal with a project that size.   The next question is do the grooves need to mate?


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## Bluedog (Mar 2, 2019)

I get why you didn’t want to post the final use or intention for the parts, but I think it could be a help. With the final goal in mind, someone might be able to think more outside the box. They might have a better idea of tolerances required, or might have suggestions on changes that could make he parts easier (cheaper) to make and accomplish the same goal. For instance, if the curved piece is just to fit the radius of the pipe and be welded on, farm fit might be good enough. The curve could be cut in steps with a small end mill and be good enough.


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 2, 2019)

Bluedog said:


> For instance, if the curved piece is just to fit the radius of the pipe and be welded on, farm fit might be good enough. The curve could be cut in steps with a small end mill and be good enough.



I was thinking the same thing.   In fact, if it's going to be welded onto the pipe a simple V-grove would be just fine.  Setting up to cut a perfectly matched radius would be a total waste of time.

In fact, I would draw in a v-groove in place of the radius and just mark it _V-groove clearance for 3/4" diameter pipe_ (or whatever size pipe it will be welded to).    That way the machinist could know how steep the V-groove needs to be based on the pipe diameter for best fit.


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## Shootymacshootface (Mar 2, 2019)

When making parts that will are designed to be welded to something else it is best to include clearance for a good weld.


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 2, 2019)

Shootymacshootface said:


> When making parts that will are designed to be welded to something else it is best to include clearance for a good weld.



That's an interesting point I wasn't even aware of myself.  Where would you put this clearance?   Would this be in the form of chamfering the edges of the piece where it meets the pipe?   If so, how would you determine how much chamfer is needed?  I wouldn't have thought of that.  I would have just slapped it on there and welded it as is.    That's why I'm not a professional welder I guess.


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## cathead (Mar 2, 2019)

Welcome to HM.  I thoroughly enjoyed reading your dissertation to the end.  One only needs to know enough to accomplish what
one needs to do the job.  The rest can be found in Machinery's Handbook if needed.   In general parts only need to be as accurate as  
the application requires.  The difficult part is that one needs a bit of tools to get started.  Being a hands-on person helps too.  
One very good way to get started would be to get to know a machinist or two or at least someone with a milling machine and
have them show you a few things.  That's what I did years ago.  I stopped by a machine shop with totally something else in
mind and ended up being tutored a bit and eventually buying several lathes and a mill and a lot of other accoutrements.  
Anyway, it is a great hobby so if you delve into the abyss, I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.


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## Shootymacshootface (Mar 2, 2019)

A 45* chamfer on the part only where the welding will be. The width of the chamfer will be dictated by the thickness of the pipe. The weld can only be as strong as the weakest part.


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 2, 2019)

Shootymacshootface said:


> A 45* chamfer on the part only where the welding will be. The width of the chamfer will be dictated by the thickness of the pipe. The weld can only be as strong as the weakest part.



Well, I'm certainly learning something in this thread.  

Thanks.

So even the pipe wall thickness needs to be called out on the drawning.   Either that, or the correct dimensions of the chamfer.  It's more complicated than even I thought.  Of course it all depends on the application too.  If there's not going to be any stress on this part you could probably get by just welding it on without a chamfer.   But if you're building something important that needs to stand up to maximum stress using the correct welding geometry is definitely the best way to go.   This is why it's also important to know how the part will be used.  If all the pressure will just be toward the pipe then all the weld needs to do is hold the part in place when it's not being used.   When it's actually being used the weld isn't really doing much of anything.   In that case it could just be tack welded on.   So the application of use can make a world of difference in what's critical and what isn't.


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## brino (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> I was reading on another forum (apparently for professional machinists, and they utterly reamed a guy to pieces for asking a simple question, and sadistically enjoyed doing it.



That will NOT happen here!
-brino


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## Bob Korves (Mar 2, 2019)

Deleted


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 2, 2019)

i love it when someone tells me it can't be done  
it really just adds fuel to the fire, for me.
to find another way of doing the exact same thing, and showing the end result, is better than most anything i could dream of.

i sense the force is strong in the newbie, welcome down the rabbit hole my friend.
there was times when everyone you encounter here was in a similar situation, not knowing anything about machining.

fear not, your knowledge grows in 2 ways.
first, you learn by watching/reading/listening/asking questions
second, by doing

if you were so inclined, you could reproduce the parts you wish to make with simple hand tools
a hacksaw, a triangular file, a round file, a bastard file, and a drill, is all you would need other than a work holding device.

if you wanted an excuse to buy a metal shaper, this would be the ultimate excuse. 
the longitudinal grooves could easily be produced.
the forming of the concave relief could also be a rewarding experience too!

Use of a vertical or horizontal milling machine would be another way of doing the same things.

your desire will be the deciding factor
there is a will, and a couple ways


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 2, 2019)

Ulma Doctor said:


> if you wanted an excuse to buy a metal shaper, this would be the ultimate excuse.



Living alone as a hermit I don't need to have excuses anymore.  Even my cats have passed on, and I don't think my goldfish would even know that I bought one.

I'm actually looking at this one right now:







Not having an excuse is not what's stopping me from getting it though.

Not  having the cash to pay for it is my current problem.  

And it was just marked down from $999 to $799.

Still a bit over my budget.   I need to find one for something like $300.


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## Shootymacshootface (Mar 2, 2019)

Op, do you currently have a lathe or a mill?


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

jwmelvin said:


> I like your question. You need to decide what is important. This is an issue of tolerancing. I can post more later but you could do some reading on the issue.



Reading what? 

If you'll forgive the flippant, intended-to-be-humourous response: I didn't know I could find that information in Readers' Digest! Wow!

A title of a text, or a link to a webpage might help, since clearly you know more about it than I do. 

Thanks!


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

4ssss said:


> I don't want to throw gas on your fire, but the last time I did a job like you want with someone that said " that's close enough" I ended up putting in over 35 hours on a job that should have been done in 4. It only ended after I had enough of his " close enough revisions", and told him to find someone else. Of course I didn't get paid if you're wondering. From that point on if there's no print or dimensioned sketch, there's not going to be any work done.



Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have never asked anyone to make this, so telling me what you wouldn't do doesn't really help me figure out what I need to do. Thanks!


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

Shootymacshootface said:


> Those could eisily be made on a mill with common tooling.
> Are you trying to learn how ro make these parts yourself?
> If you want a machinist to make them for you, you just supply a blueprint or a drawings with _dementions_ on it and let the machinist do what he does.



Thanks for the reply. Did you see the part where I wanted to start a discussion on learning what I needed to know, about how to dimension, detail, and mark up the drawings?


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## benmychree (Mar 2, 2019)

Shapers are a drug on the market, especially large ones.  Small ones bring good money, but that one is not small.  Never buy a shaper that does not have it's vise.  Even if sold for half the lowered price it would not be a deal without the vise.


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## cbellanca (Mar 2, 2019)

Remember there are no dumb questions. Only dumb answers. I see this site as a learning experience for me even though I have been around machining operations for over 50 years. So keep asking those questions.  I do.
Regards,  Chuck


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 2, 2019)

benmychree said:


> Shapers are a drug on the market, especially large ones.  Small ones bring good money, but that one is not small.  Never buy a shaper that does not have it's vise.  Even if sold for half the lowered price it would not be a deal without the vise.



Just between you and me, if they offered me the one in the picture for $300 I'd be on my way to pick it up , vice or no vice. 

But yeah, I'm not paying $799 for it.


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> Thanks for the reply. Did you see the part where I wanted to start a discussion on learning what I needed to know, about how to dimension, detail, and mark up the drawings?



What CAD program are you using?


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## MarkM (Mar 2, 2019)

I like how you believe in yourself.  The mind is the strongest muscle we have .  It s all sttitude!
Take your part and look at it in three views. Top view, Front view, and side view.  In those views you dimension what you want.  Circles dotted circles, lines and dotted lines represent seen and unseen or features.  Like a hole and a thread.  What you see in your views is drawn.  A hole one inch from an edge will have a circle drawn and the dimension away from the edge given and size of hole.  It doesn t have to be an engineers drawing.Some times top and side views are enough.  A tolerance is given for the operation.  The more decimals used the more precision.  Machinist love seeing two decimals.
X left and right y forward and back, z up and down is how we machine.
Just some things to ponder.  Go look at an engineers drawing for a simple shaft.  Look into tolerances study for a bit and send me a drawing  of your part or whatever and l ill help to educate yourself and could make that if you need.  Simple flatbar will do.
Something to think about being a maker and working with machinist.  Try to understand tooling and processes.  Like your part.  Do you require a v groove, a radius, or would a simple small slot be sufficent from a tiny endmill.


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

jwmelvin said:


> Some things do matter to you; I’m guessing you care that the grooves mate. So for that you might dimension from one peak to the next and designate that as typical.
> 
> Also the holes seem likely to allow relative motion of some parts? Allowing for sufficient tolerance on diameter means the holes can be drilled instead of also reamed or bored. That makes a big difference. If the holes are, say +-0.010 then someone reading the drawing knows they may be drilled.
> 
> The radiused back running along one of the parts looks to be the most difficult feature. Knowing the tolerance on radius is important. You said it would be welded to a pipe. I would think that a c-channel or a rectilinear recess rather than the radius would be better because it facilitates line contact for welding. But you don’t want that. Are you okay with the radius being more than that of the pipe? The tolerance will be driven by the tolerance of the pipe and your design considerations.



You're right. Some things do matter.  The grooves mating, or knowing what the dimensions are isn't one of them. They are specifically intended not to mate, as they are intended to grasp something between them. Ooops, I gave something away! 

The only way I can think of to describe it, is to just show a sketch of the cross section. It's attached. The red part is where I thought the weld would go. If the pipe just fits up inside the "groove" then the weld will have a better area to hold. If there's all sorts of space between the pipe and the part, well, I could foresee problems.

The thickness of the walls of the pipe is (at a guess, I've never measured it) a little more than 1/8" and it's 1-1/2" in diameter. So that would be the radius, I'm guessing. 

Does this help any?


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

Robo_Pi said:


> What CAD program are you using?



I'm not using a CAD program. I'm using an older version of Paint Shop Pro.


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

MarkM said:


> I like how you believe in yourself.  The mind is the strongest muscle we have .  It s all sttitude!
> Take your part and look at it in three views. Top view, Front view, and side view.  In those views you dimension what you want.  Circles dotted circles, lines and dotted lines represent seen and unseen or features.  Like a hole and a thread.  What you see in your views is drawn.  A hole one inch from an edge will have a circle drawn and the dimension away from the edge given and size of hole.  It doesn t have to be an engineers drawing.Some times top and side views are enough.  A tolerance is given for the operation.  The more decimals used the more precision.  Machinist love seeing two decimals.
> X left and right y forward and back, z up and down is how we machine.
> Just some things to ponder.  Go look at an engineers drawing for a simple shaft.  Look into tolerances study for a bit and send me a drawing  of your part or whatever and l ill help to educate yourself and could make that if you need.  Simple flatbar will do.
> Something to think about being a maker and working with machinist.  Try to understand tooling and processes.  Like your part.  Do you require a v groove, a radius, or would a simple small slot be sufficent from a tiny endmill.



Those are just a few of the very many things I have never considered. One thing sticks out. If I don't know what "tooling" and "processes" are, I really can't understand them. As I mentioned, if this were wood, I could figure it out. I'd take a router with a triangular profile, and cut my grooves. I'd take one with a much bigger round profile, and cut out the bottom groove. And I have a nice 1/2" forstner bit that would cut my holes. But this isn't wood, and I don't have a clue how metal machines work. I think I have a great deal to learn.


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

Bluedog said:


> I get why you didn’t want to post the final use or intention for the parts, but I think it could be a help. With the final goal in mind, someone might be able to think more outside the box. They might have a better idea of tolerances required, or might have suggestions on changes that could make he parts easier (cheaper) to make and accomplish the same goal. For instance, if the curved piece is just to fit the radius of the pipe and be welded on, farm fit might be good enough. The curve could be cut in steps with a small end mill and be good enough.



If I were working in wood, that's pretty much exactly how I would do it, with the added finishing of a drum sander or the end of a belt sander. 

 I have some router bits that are close in radius, and they would do the job in wood. 

In fact, I have already made these out of reclaimed pallet wood a couple of times. I know how the woodworking processes go, but I don't know anything about any of the metal machining ones.


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> You're right. Some things do matter.  The grooves mating, or knowing what the dimensions are isn't one of them. They are specifically intended not to mate, as they are intended to grasp something between them. Ooops, I gave something away!
> 
> The only way I can think of to describe it, is to just show a sketch of the cross section. It's attached. The red part is where I thought the weld would go. If the pipe just fits up inside the "groove" then the weld will have a better area to hold. If there's all sorts of space between the pipe and the part, well, I could foresee problems.
> 
> ...




might help if I attached the doggone drawing!


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## MarkM (Mar 2, 2019)

Don t over think.   Think of tooling as cutters or what hits the material.  Some are common shapes like a rectangular, some can have a special shape.  This is very general so you get the jist.  Processes think the action required to do the operation.  Sometimes a special tool may need to be bought for a shape or feature like a 3/8" radius along one edge or a cnc can do crazy wizardy and move the tooling or part driven by a program to move the tool to shape.  Again just a very general thought here.  One foot in front of the other.


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## Shootymacshootface (Mar 2, 2019)

Yes, that is exactly what would be needed fo a good weld.


Scootered said:


> might help if I attached the doggone drawing!


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## MarkM (Mar 2, 2019)

How wide is the part.  The radius is half of what the shaft diameter but how deep is it cut,  depth of v and is it a 60 degree included angle. Height of total part. I think you put the shaft in to show what you are doing. Am I right to think that.


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

cbellanca said:


> Remember there are no dumb questions. Only dumb answers. I see this site as a learning experience for me even though I have been around machining operations for over 50 years. So keep asking those questions.  I do.
> Regards,  Chuck



My English Lit teacher says the same thing. I don't intend to give up until I have a satisfactory understanding of what I am doing.

But there is one thing: I would really like someone to explain to me, (and please, use small words so that I'll be able to get it,) why 53 decimal places of precision is necessary. I have a forstner bit in the garage, and it says 1/2" on the side of it. The holes it cuts measure out to be a half-inch in diameter, whether I'm drilling into old pine from a pallet, or a piece of hard maple. If its more than a 1/2" hole, say 9/16" then it isn't a half-inch hole, is it?  Are metal fabrication tools that much more precise than woodworking tools? The only time I've ever used a caliper was in a science class a couple of years ago.


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

MarkM said:


> How wide is the part.  The radius is half of what the shaft diameter but how deep is it cut,  depth of v and is it a 60 degree included angle. Height of total part. I think you put the shaft in to show what you are doing. Am I right to think that.



As I mentioned in my original post, it's a piece of flat metal bar that's 3-1/2" long by 1 wide, by 3/8" thick. I set the "depth" of that radius in the body of the bar to be one-half the thickness, or 3/16" just like the drawing shows, or would if it were dimensioned.  

I put the piece of pipe in to show how it would be welded to the part. And in a way, you're right, because it does show what the overall finished thing would look like, if it were sawed in half, crosswise.


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## MarkM (Mar 2, 2019)

You said that you wanted to learn or how to communicate with machinist.  Decimal points are not requird but you can t go into a shop and say hey buddy can you make these parts for me.  I kinda want this.  If the spindle isn t turning there not making money and you come across as a time waster.  You can draw a half inch hole how you want 1/2" .5, 5.005", 5.0005" The 5.0005"cost more.  Your part is simple but i still don t know what you want exactly want.  What if I make that radius for a two inch pipe and your pipe is three inches and doesn t conform for a good weld?  Machinist love loose tolerances but hate talking about it for an hr. and then they don t want to pay for that hr.  Grab a napkin even draw a rectangle with some lines. How long is it how wide, where are the holes and what size.  Show radius and what pipe you want to mate to.  Draw whatever you can from this.


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## ttabbal (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> My English Lit teacher says the same thing. I don't intend to give up until I have a satisfactory understanding of what I am doing.
> 
> But there is one thing: I would really like someone to explain to me, (and please, use small words so that I'll be able to get it,) why 53 decimal places of precision is necessary. I have a forstner bit in the garage, and it says 1/2" on the side of it. The holes it cuts measure out to be a half-inch in diameter, whether I'm drilling into old pine from a pallet, or a piece of hard maple. If its more than a 1/2" hole, say 9/16" then it isn't a half-inch hole, is it?  Are metal fabrication tools that much more precise than woodworking tools? The only time I've ever used a caliper was in a science class a couple of years ago.




The most common precision is three decimal places. Thousandths of an inch. There are some cases where you go to ten-thousandths, but not often. Metal parts often have to fit just so, think about the engine parts in your car. They need to be small enough to fit together, but large enough to hold a seal. If your parts don't need that, call out +/-0.01 or similar. It makes it easier to make as well.


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## Twirpunky (Mar 2, 2019)

Take a machine shop class at a Vo-Tech center or just about any two year college.  While learning the language, you will also learn a valuable skill. The instructor will most likely allow you to make just the part you need if you are caught up on the regular assignments. 

D


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

MarkM said:


> You said that you wanted to learn or how to communicate with machinist.  Decimal points are not requird but you can t go into a shop and say hey buddy can you make these parts for me.  I kinda want this.  If the spindle isn t turning there not making money and you come across as a time waster.  You can draw a half inch hole how you want 1/2" .5, 5.005", 5.0005" The 5.0005"cost more.  Your part is simple but i still don t know what you want exactly want.  What if I make that radius for a two inch pipe and your pipe is three inches and doesn t conform for a good weld?  Machinist love loose tolerances but hate talking about it for an hr. and then they don t want to pay for that hr.  Grab a napkin even draw a rectangle with some lines. How long is it how wide, where are the holes and what size.  Show radius and what pipe you want to mate to.  Draw whatever you can from this.



Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I even posted pictures. How can you say you don't know what I want, when I said exactly what I was trying to do? 3.5" long, 1" wide, .375" thick, two half-inch holes, a bunch of grooves down one side, and a hollowed-out place on the other side. How hard can that be? Before I get to the point where I've taken money in hand to some shop somewhere, I'll be able to say with reasonable precise certainty exactly what the outside diameter of my pipe is, what the wall thickness is, and everything else. I'm just trying to understand the processes and the terminology so I can learn something about how this gets done. 

I'm probably never going to become a machinist. Not because I think I can't, or because I don't think I'll like it, but because I want a degree in history when I go to college. Making things is just fun for me. Now, I understand that for lots of people here, it's money, and that's okay. If you think I'm wasting your time, I'll not bother you any more.


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

Twirpunky said:


> Take a machine shop class at a Vo-Tech center or just about any two year college.  While learning the language, you will also learn a valuable skill. The instructor will most likely allow you to make just the part you need if you are caught up on the regular assignments.
> 
> D



I actually thought about doing that, but my dad won't let me. He thinks I have to stay focused on getting ready for college. I sort of agree, because I've wanted to be a researcher since I was a little kid. You know, one of those guys who looks up stuff for all the programs on the science channel and the discovery channel?


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## bhigdog (Mar 2, 2019)

You say you want info on producing a workable drawing.........Google "engineering drawing" for all you need to know.
You say you want a couple of these parts made inexpensively.
It is unlikely a busy job shop would be interested in a one off project unless you  make it WELL worth their time.
There are a fair number of ways to skin your cat, none of them cheap by using an established shop. 
Perhaps a hobbiest could be enlisted to help gratis or at a "hobby rate".
Or perhaps you could rethink your project so it would be more D I Y friendly............Bob


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## Twirpunky (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> I actually thought about doing that, but my dad won't let me. He thinks I have to stay focused on getting ready for college. I sort of agree, because I've wanted to be a researcher since I was a little kid. You know, one of those guys who looks up stuff for all the programs on the science channel and the discovery channel?


  Most all college classes at Two year schools will count as credits applied to a 4 year degree, even a history major.  There are usually several non-related credits required for any 4 year degree. They call these Elective Credits. Prepare yourself for college by getting some of your Elective credits out of the way while learning something of interest to you and get the part made just they way you want it.


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## Scootered (Mar 2, 2019)

bhigdog said:


> You say you want info on producing a workable drawing.........Google "engineering drawing" for all you need to know.
> You say you want a couple of these parts made inexpensively.
> It is unlikely a busy job shop would be interested in a one off project unless you  make it WELL worth their time.
> There are a fair number of ways to skin your cat, none of them cheap by using an established shop.
> ...



Wow, some of those drawings I've seen are hugely complicated! This is way outside what I originally thought it would be. Now I know why everyone keeps saying "wait until you're older, you'll understand"... 

I was sort of (naively) thinking I could just walk into some shop where a bunch of guys were just standing around, and talk them into doing it on the cheap. Boy am I dumb sometimes. 

If there were a way for me to do it more "DIY friendly" I would, but it's going to be used for something fairly important, and it has to be metal. Rats. 

Let me play around in Paint Shop Pro and see what I can come up with based on the lessons I've already learned here.


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## ttabbal (Mar 2, 2019)

Regarding your drill bit... It does not make a 0.5" hole. It makes a hole that is close to the right size. All drill bits do. You don't have the tools to measure it, but it's still there. Perhaps you don't care about the difference, but a machinist does. There are no perfect parts or features. The very best machinist or even CNC machines will have some error. It might be extremely small, but it's there. Thus, we have tolerances.


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## ttabbal (Mar 2, 2019)

Consider learning Fusion360. It's free and can generate dimensioned drawings a machinist can use.


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## Twirpunky (Mar 2, 2019)

Home
					

eMachineShop manufactures low-cost prototype and production runs of custom parts. Get a fast quote or design and order your parts with our free CAD software. We offer CNC Milling and Turning, Sheet Metal Fabrication, Injection Molding, and dozens of materials. Online Ordering. Free Shipping...



					www.emachineshop.com
				




Here is a great place to start.  It has free download drawing software.  You can develop your part and submit it for other people to bid on to make it for you.  The software makes sure you have included the required specifications to your part.   You want to do research, start here. Down load and start learning.

D


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## bhigdog (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> If there were a way for me to do it more "DIY friendly" I would, but it's going to be used for something fairly important, and it has to be metal. Rats.



Modern machine tools are a relatively recent "invention" and yet there survive thousands of examples of intricate and elegant mechanisms fashioned hundreds of years before their arrival. I'm guessing a colonial metal smith could produce functional examples of your project in little more than an afternoon. Yes, in metal...........Bob


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## markba633csi (Mar 2, 2019)

Hi Scootered! I had a nice siamese cat named Scooter so I thought I should at least say hi.
We don't put people down here that's why this site was created.  Helpful info only.  Ask away.
Mark
ps I was trying to guess what it is you are making- did you not mention it or did I miss it? I'm thinking a clamp of some kind


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## mmcmdl (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> To preface: I have absolutely NO idea what I'm doing when it comes to machining. Nothing. I have never even seen a machine shop. I have no idea about terminology, technique, or proper practices.



Welcome . You're in the right place as we have no clue as to what we are doing also . 

As far as your parts , that's a simple part to machine but a dimensioned print would be needed .


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## brino (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> Wow, some of those drawings I've seen are hugely complicated! This is way outside what I originally thought it would be.......I was sort of (naively) thinking I could just walk into some shop where a bunch of guys were just standing around, and talk them into doing it on the cheap.



@Scootered it sounds like you're starting to understand the size of the divide between where you started and the machinists that are asking for detailed drawings.



Scootered said:


> I have a forstner bit in the garage, and it says 1/2" on the side of it. The holes it cuts measure out to be a half-inch in diameter, whether I'm drilling into old pine from a pallet, or a piece of hard maple. If its more than a 1/2" hole, say 9/16" then it isn't a half-inch hole, is it?



@ttabbal is right on with this:


ttabbal said:


> Regarding your drill bit... It does not make a 0.5" hole. It makes a hole that is close to the right size. All drill bits do. You don't have the tools to measure it, but it's still there. Perhaps you don't care about the difference, but a machinist does. There are no perfect parts or features. The very best machinist or even CNC machines will have some error. It might be extremely small, but it's there. Thus, we have tolerances.



In fact, even if your drill bit is exactly 0.5000000 inch diameter, your hole will be bigger due to run-out (non-concentricity) of the drill chuck, and un-even sharpening of the bit. The hole might not be perfectly straight as the bit can wander with hard spots in the material. The hole might also be out of round.

Machinists are accustomed to working in thousandths of an inch. They have been trained to care about it, and therefore want to know tolerences with any part they are asked to build.

Another component of all this is the material. The 1/2" hole you drill in any wood will change with realtive humidity, but you'd need special equipment to measure it. For most things built in wood this is either too small to care about, or accounted for with slots, like where table tops are connected to aprons with a joint that allows for movement, or panels in a frame for a cabinet door have extra room to expand.

So for projects in wood it makes no sense to try to work to a thousandths of an inch....it would measure different tomorrow.

-brino


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## stupoty (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> the nature of the project isn't relevant, nor is the final purpose for the metal parts relevant



lol come on, now we really need to know 

The "V" slots could be milled with a regular end mill with the milling head set at an angle, If you made a long bar with all the "V" slots in you could then cut the blanks for the parts from it.

Holes could be drilled on a mill or drill press.  As other have said the exact method may depend upon your required tolerance, for example , do the holes have to be round ? if yes you may wish to ream them after drilling which will provide an accurately sized and round hole.

The curve on the back of two of them could be milled simply with a "ball end" end mill of the correct diameter. 

bish bash bosh , done.  (well maybe a little swaring and curse words when you cant find the correct tooling in the workshop or need to purchase another random item you don't have on hand or all your mesuremnts were wrong.) 





Stu


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## ThinWoodsman (Mar 2, 2019)

Scootered said:


> Let me play around in Paint Shop Pro and see what I can come up with based on the lessons I've already learned here.



Graph paper or whiteboard. Then take a picture.


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## mmcmdl (Mar 2, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> Graph paper or whiteboard. Then take a picture.



Worked in a model / R&D shop for years with engineers . They had ideas but not a clue as how to put them into a finished product . Sketches on napkins etc and verbal instructions were the norm . Sometimes simple is better .


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## HBilly1022 (Mar 2, 2019)

Maybe I'm missing something but if you created the sketch, all you have to do, is dimension it with the software that was used to create it. You had to input dimensions to create the drawing. That is the same information someone would require to create the part. Does your software have a dimensions feature? If not then provide a list of the information you used to create the sketch. 


length of part - already provided.
width - already provided.
angle, depth and spacing of grooves
diameter of holes and location from the ends
the parts appear to have different overall thicknesses. What are they?
the arch in the underside of the one part needs to be dimensioned. How deep and what radius? To see the effect for yourself, go back to your drawing and input 0.5" radius and then a 2" radius and see the change.

The information needed to create the part has already been input by you, in order to create the sketch. All you need to do now provide the same information to the person that will make it.

And the last thing ....... noted by you and the very friendly people on this forum is......... tolerances! I think you stated that tolerance to be 1/16". Is that for the diameter of the holes and _all _of the linear measurements? 

Machinists and woodworkers are *used *to working with very different tolerances and to make sure you get what you need / want, that is a critical question that needs to be answered. *You *set the tolerances and they can be _anything_ *you *want. Just to exaggerate the point, you could state the tolerances to be within 1" +/- or you could state they must be within 0.0005" +/-. They are both achievable but at very different costs.

I hope this helps you understand. I'm kind of a matter of fact person and I'm trying to help but sometimes my written word doesn't convey that intention.


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## Wheelcock (Mar 3, 2019)

Scootered said:


> As I mentioned in my original post, it's a piece of flat metal bar that's 3-1/2" long by 1 wide, by 3/8" thick. I set the "depth" of that radius in the body of the bar to be one-half the thickness, or 3/16" just like the drawing shows, or would if it were dimensioned.
> 
> I put the piece of pipe in to show how it would be welded to the part. And in a way, you're right, because it does show what the overall finished thing would look like, if it were sawed in half, crosswise.



I mean this as friendly advice, not to discourage you: 

Sounds like you have a limited budget and limited access to tools. A good first step might be to step back and really think about what features you absolutely must have to make the finished article work for your intended use, and what you can accomplish with off-the-shelf materials and simple tools. 

Do you have to use bar stock? Sounds like with your current plan, you could use u channel and weld to your pipe: this eliminates the need to machine the backside radius on one of your pieces. Don't have access to a welder? Maybe you can use square tube instead of round pipe and work on a surface of the tube directly. Do your grooves have to be perfectly parallel 90deg Vs? If they are just meant to provide grip, maybe you can use a cutting disk on an angle grinder, or a burr on a Dremel, or a hacksaw and files. If your tolerances are loose enough, perhaps you can drill your holes with a decent bit and powered hand drill. Since I don't really know what you are trying to accomplish, and what resources and experience are available to you I'm taking shots in the dark... Your intended purpose is relevant to someone interested in helping you so that they can understand what is important to the success of your project and share their experience accordingly -- you have come to a place where there are many who are more than happy to share experiences and think through your project with you! 

Tying into what others have said, your design represents the culmination of your efforts to think through the best way to achieve your desired outcome given the resources available (time, money, tooling, experience), and the blueprint is your best effort to communicate your design. When you provide a blueprint to someone else to produce the article, you are providing them with an unambiguous representation of what is to be produced that takes into account manufacturing methods, referencing for measurement, and tolerancing. In most cases, this is what a professional machinist will expect, but is overkill for something with wide open tolerances you knock out in an hour or two in the garage -- it all depends on what you really need at the end of the day


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## MarkM (Mar 3, 2019)

Sorry but I thought you wanted to learn!  Not just have your part made.  Someone mentioned Tolerances,  I mentioned to maybe tale a look at a drawing of a simple shaft which was to make a light go off to see how simple a drawing can be and to see how and what the views represent.  How dimensions are applied to a drawing.
If you want to learn throw away your computer and grab a pencil and a pc. of paper and draw something to represent your part.  Your Second drawing will be better and we are willing to help you.  Sorry but to me it seems you are stuck on getting your part made and don t want to apply yourself to learn.  What is Tolerance?  How do you place a feature on a drawing?
I pointed it out as well as others.  Info needed.  Think of a ten foot diameter pipe.  The radius is five feet.  I go and cut a radius for a Five inch shaft at a depth of 3/16.     Now how is that five foot radius going to conform and be able to be welded.  An extreme for sure.  Something to think about.  Put the info on a print rather than have us go through every post.  One drawing with all your info.  You represent the kind of customers machinist run from.  Ya were all going to be sitting around to discuss your part and do it on the cheap.  How much an hr. Do you think that would cost the company and would you be willing to pay that or do you expect the company to take the hit.
Good luck!


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## mmcmdl (Mar 3, 2019)

Scootered said:


> I was sort of (naively) thinking I could just walk into some shop where a bunch of guys were just standing around, and talk them into doing it on the cheap.



You'll never see that . We'll all be sitting around in comfy chairs ! 


Scootered said:


> Ooops, I gave something away!



Mmmmm..........................top secret , need to know basis . 

( just pulling your chain )


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## bhigdog (Mar 3, 2019)

At the risk of appearing a grumpy old man I get the distinct impression the OP would rather talk than do. Everyone here has given many versions of help and suggestions and the response is usually a "yeah but", "gee that's complicated", "I don't know how". 
When I was a kid we made what we needed and improvised as required. Scooters were made from a length of 2 X 4, the wheels from an old roller skate,  a wooden crate, and all held together with whatever we could find in the old man's garage. No one said "gee that's too hard". We learned by doing and we didn't have the internet with it's unlimited knowledge at our finger tips.
Every question that been asked of us has the answers readily available. Every process required can be duplicated with simple tools and devices found in the most basic home shop. Every attempt at making the parts will advance ones knowledge and skill base far more than asking about it.
I'd be far more interested helping someone who actually tried and was unsuccessful than one who just wanted tell me why he can't even try.




Scootered said:


> I think I have a great deal to learn



Yes you do......................Bob


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Mar 3, 2019)

I didnt read all the replies, kinda stuck to the OPs posts so sorry if this has already been said....

I Think the part of the equation you are missing is A factor called "Tool Run Out."  I think if you do some reading on this you will have a better understanding why machinist look for that "53 decimal" tolerance spec you spoke of.


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 3, 2019)

some folks are deathly afraid to mess things up.
i don't like to mess up, but i'm not afraid.

2 things happen when you mess up
1, you learn what not to do (or learn don't do that again)
2, you gain skills by rectifying the mistake, whether it is by remaking the part, or, by repairing the mistake- you do get smarter.

start small, make something seemingly trivial for a first project- but make it to the very best of your ability
when you are done, keep the trinket in a highly visible space in your shop so you can see your progression.

some of my first projects were tools and welding jigs, 
maybe you could start by reproducing a 90° 1" square block from 1-1/8" material- similar to what the USN machinists do in their training program.
they only use a file to achieve the end dimensions and are highly inspected and scrutinized for dimensional accuracy

if you could do that, you could do anything you set your mind to


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## ThinWoodsman (Mar 3, 2019)

bhigdog said:


> At the risk of appearing a grumpy old man I get the distinct impression the OP would rather talk than do. Everyone here has given many versions of help and suggestions and the response is usually a "yeah but", "gee that's complicated", "I don't know how".



Eh, he's a teen-ager, their perspective of time is different. A project that takes a month seems like an eternity, but after a few decades a month passes by before you know it. I personally enjoy making parts by filing, but twenty-year-old me would not have put up with it. Sounds like he has enough to keep him occupied and let's face it, machining takes some time to learn just so you don't destroy the tools.

If I were to advise the original poster, I'd say that machining uses a lot of the same tools as woodworking: mills are routers, grinders are sanders, drills and saws are the same. The material is more hard so the tools must be harder, sharper, run at a lower speed, and able to withstand more torque (usually through rigidity). When submitting a spec to a machinist, you need to have all measurements from a reference surface (diameter or a rod, one side of a square, etc) and include as many decimal places as you think are necessary (in this case only two, e.g. for .25). When talking to an acquaintance who knows machining and metalworking, you can be much more informal, and say "a sleeve of 1/4" thickness to enclose a 2" diameter pipe, a hole 1/2" from the end" or something. Talk to somebody who's taken the shop class (do they still have those?) and see what you can work out.


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## bhigdog (Mar 3, 2019)

The point is the lack of initiative. Other than playing with a computer was any attempt made to actually DO something towards accomplishing a goal? Were some attempts made at fashioning a crude prototype? The OP says the grooves were only a gripping surface. So..... a hacksaw or file would do the job.
64 posts and counting and nothing has been accomplished or even attempted. I'd bet my wallet most any 16 year old farm kid, a junk pile and a few common tools would have had a working example long before now and never once said "I don't know how".
My impression is the OP is fishing for someone to offer to make them for him................Bob


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## Scootered (Mar 3, 2019)

ttabbal said:


> Regarding your drill bit... It does not make a 0.5" hole. It makes a hole that is close to the right size. All drill bits do. You don't have the tools to measure it, but it's still there. Perhaps you don't care about the difference, but a machinist does. There are no perfect parts or features. The very best machinist or even CNC machines will have some error. It might be extremely small, but it's there. Thus, we have tolerances.



Well, I respectfully disagree. 

I went out this morning to measure my pipe so I could have accurate info when I dimension my drawing, and I decided to test the bit. I took four different scraps of wood. Pallet wood (probably some cheap poplar or something), pine, maple, and red oak. Drilled a hole in each one. Measured those holes with every measuring implement I have. Guess what? They're all 1/2" holes. If there are any differences between any of them, my eye isn't good enough to see it (and nobody else's is either) and therefore it is a non-difference. That's enough precision for me in this project. I also took a piece of hard maple, and ran it on my lathe until it was 1/2" in diameter according to my measuring implements. It fit just barely into the hole. Couldn't get a hair in between, but it fit. Again, that's all the precision I need. That Forstner bit cost me a couple extra lawns mowed, so if it says it cuts a half-inch hole, and the holes it cuts measure a half-inch, then it's a half-inch bit.  If it doesn't require any more precision than that, why worry about it? Seems like a waste of effort to me. Maybe I'm just too stupid to see it.


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## Scootered (Mar 3, 2019)

bhigdog said:


> At the risk of appearing a grumpy old man I get the distinct impression the OP would rather talk than do. Everyone here has given many versions of help and suggestions and the response is usually a "yeah but", "gee that's complicated", "I don't know how".
> When I was a kid we made what we needed and improvised as required. Scooters were made from a length of 2 X 4, the wheels from an old roller skate,  a wooden crate, and all held together with whatever we could find in the old man's garage. No one said "gee that's too hard". We learned by doing and we didn't have the internet with it's unlimited knowledge at our finger tips.
> Every question that been asked of us has the answers readily available. Every process required can be duplicated with simple tools and devices found in the most basic home shop. Every attempt at making the parts will advance ones knowledge and skill base far more than asking about it.
> I'd be far more interested helping someone who actually tried and was unsuccessful than one who just wanted tell me why he can't even try.
> ...




Yep, you do sound like a grumpy old man. Doesn't seem to me like there's much I can learn from you, you know so much.  In my opinion, not too much better than the people on that other forum who just love treating newbies like crap.   So, I'll kindly ask you if you'll stay out of my thread, please.


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## Scootered (Mar 3, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> Eh, he's a teen-ager, their perspective of time is different. A project that takes a month seems like an eternity, but after a few decades a month passes by before you know it. I personally enjoy making parts by filing, but twenty-year-old me would not have put up with it. Sounds like he has enough to keep him occupied and let's face it, machining takes some time to learn just so you don't destroy the tools.
> 
> If I were to advise the original poster, I'd say that machining uses a lot of the same tools as woodworking: mills are routers, grinders are sanders, drills and saws are the same. The material is more hard so the tools must be harder, sharper, run at a lower speed, and able to withstand more torque (usually through rigidity). When submitting a spec to a machinist, you need to have all measurements from a reference surface (diameter or a rod, one side of a square, etc) and include as many decimal places as you think are necessary (in this case only two, e.g. for .25). When talking to an acquaintance who knows machining and metalworking, you can be much more informal, and say "a sleeve of 1/4" thickness to enclose a 2" diameter pipe, a hole 1/2" from the end" or something. Talk to somebody who's taken the shop class (do they still have those?) and see what you can work out.



I might only be 15, but I'm not an idiot, and I really don't appreciate the way that guy talked to me. He wouldn't take it coming from me, so why should I have to take it coming from him? This isn't ancient Rome where everyone had to pay obeisance and admire the "Pater" father figure. 

You've actually given a very good explanation between the woodworking tools and the machine ones. My school cut out both the metal and wood shop four or five years ago because of budget cuts. So there's that avenue gone. I'm actually trying to learn something here. Contrary to popular opinion, you can't just get everything out of a book, or off the web. I don't learn that way. I have to see it. I have to physically go through the motions of doing it. I have to watch technique, how people move, and what their machines actually do. Drives some of my friends nuts, but I just don't learn that way. 

I think that if I can get a drawing done in a particular way, that gets the point across that all the super-fine precision just isn't necessary, and as long as the final produced part looks exactly like the measurements on the drawing, and looks like the drawing, then it will be just fine. No hullaballoo about carrying things out to 47 decimal places.


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## hman (Mar 3, 2019)

I kinda think many of us should lighten up a little bit.  Scootered said he was absolutely new to all of this: "Nothing. I have never even seen a machine shop. I have no idea about terminology, technique, or proper practices."  Also recall that he said, "My ultimate goal is to find someone who would be willing to make them, without me having to mortgage my house or sell my car to pay for them."

So let's back up a step or two, try to put ourselves in his shoes, and do what we can from there.

Scootered -   
OK, Paint Shop Pro isn't a CAD program by any means, but you do seem to have the basic shapes drawn up.  Dimensioning will be necessary when you want to show this to a machinist, and it's probably impossible on Paint Shop.  But here's a trick I've used a time or two, that may get you where you need to be.  

(1) First, you print out your creation.  The example I'm doing is a screen shot from your first post.  The "perspective" views are good for the overall concept, but if at all possible, you should include "face on" images from the face and the end, maybe even the side.
(2) Pencil in the dimensions, with tolerances.  I've added a few (guesses) that I think are consistent with your posts.  You need to give enough information to the machinist so he can build it.  *Where* is each feature (generally with respect to one corner/face or other known feature of the part)?  How big is the feature?  Etc.  A basic mechanical drawing/drafting book might be of use.  But don't be intimidated by all the persnickerty details in anything beyond the first chapter or two.  Your part is pretty basic.
(3) Scan the marked-up drawing back into your computer.  Then you can make as many copies as needed, and have a record of the original.
(4)  Take this along when you talk to machinists.  Decide ahead of time that the purpose of the first such visit will be more educational than anything else.  Let them know that you're not using a real CAD program.  Thenlisten to the suggestions that they make.  Have a second copy of the drawing in your hand, and make notes on it.  Thank them for their time.
(5)  Correct your drawing, per the suggestion of the first visit.  Then either return to the same machinist, or go to some others.

Having a dimensioned drawing is pretty much vital to the process.  As some others have pointed out, the actual machining is *not* an interactive process.  You give the drawing to the machinist, then go away and wait for him to let you know the part is ready.  

Errors?  *If* the part is not made per the drawing, you can ask for a correction or re-do.  If it's per print, you own the result.  And again (as we've all done time after time), learn from your mistakes.

Best wishes!


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## MarkM (Mar 3, 2019)

I ll tell ya what.  I like the fact you put yourself out there and want to learn.  I guess I am half old grumpy maybe?  Doesn t matter I want to help you and would like to encourage you.  We are on your side.  Maybe we or I need to step up as I am half old and grumpy.  You have your life ahead of you and we all would like you to be successful so I thinks it s best to enc ourage you and throw everything out above and take it all with a grain of salt.  I will help you!  I ll donate some time and material.  Now from you all I ask is to try.  Forget cad/cam and your computer for this project.  Learn the basic skills.  It will make you better at cad/cam.  It s much better to struggle to understand something then to just get the answer.  When you troubleshoot those basic skills come to surface.
Let s pretend you walk in my shop tomorrow and would like me to (Remember It s a shop that put s food on the table) do some work for you.  Don t touch your computer. Were doing this old school.  Grab a pencil and a pc. Of paper and do your best to draw a top view and a side view.  We ll go from there.  I am a mile from the Maine border so no big deal to send it to you.
Put it on paper. Take a pic. And post.  We could all help or if you d rather send me a private message but I may learn something too! so how do feel about putting the picture in the thread.  You already showed you have courage!
.Here is some chicken scratch.  A very rough scetch but just to give you an idea.  Something like this I can go and cut my material.  No math to work out for spacing and depth of cuts.  Time cost money.


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## FanMan (Mar 3, 2019)

Others have talked about needing drawings so I won't add to that except to agree that yes, you need a drawing if you want a machinist to talk to you about it.

Tolerances:  Not something you worry about with woodworking, but with metalworking it's important.  Your half inch hole:  Most drills cut slightly oversize.  If you use your Forstner bit to drill a half inch hole, it'll be a half inch plus a little.  It's not your eyes that can't tell  the difference, you probably don't have measuring tools accurate enough (most woodworkers don't).  But because that half inch hole is probably a bit oversize, your half inch dowel will slip into it... though it may be a bit tight so you have to tap it in.  But wood is forgiving.

Now take a half inch hole in metal.  Say you dimension it as such, .500 diameter.  Typical hole tolerances might  be plus or minus five thousandths (±.005).  Say your hole comes in undersize at .495 (.500-.005).  You want to put a bolt  into it that  comes in a bit oversize at .505.  No way it's gonna fit even with a BIG hammer.  To avoid that, you dimension the hole a bit oversize, a typical drilled hole for a bolt will be 1/64-1/32 (.016-.031) oversize.  _That's what you need to specify on your drawing_, not just 1/2".  Going oversize on the holes also allows for the holes being slightly out of position, i.e. if they don't quite line up the bolt will still fit through the overlap area.  On the other hand, if you make the holes _too_ oversize, the fit may be too sloppy causing other problems.  Since none of us here know what your final intended use is, there's no way we can advise you on what an appropriate fit or tolerance would be.  But if you specify too-tight tolerances, it's going to cost you more.


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## Scootered (Mar 3, 2019)

MarkM said:


> _I ll tell ya what.  I like the fact you put yourself out there and want to learn.  I guess I am half old grumpy maybe?  Doesn t matter I want to help you and would like to encourage you.  We are on your side.  Maybe we or I need to step up as I am half old and grumpy.  You have your life ahead of you and we all would like you to be successful so I thinks it s best to encourage you and throw everything out above and take it all with a grain of salt.  I will help you!  I ll donate some time and material.  Now from you all I ask is to try.  Forget cad/cam and your computer for this project.  Learn the basic skills.  It will make you better at cad/cam.  It s much better to struggle to understand something then to just get the answer.  When you troubleshoot those basic skills come to surface.
> 
> Let s pretend you walk in my shop tomorrow and would like me to (Remember It s a shop that put s food on the table) do some work for you.  Don t touch your computer. Were doing this old school.  Grab a pencil and a pc. Of paper and do your best to draw a top view and a side view.  We ll go from there.  I am a mile from the Maine border so no big deal to send it to you.
> 
> ...



Well, dang. I was just about to delete myself from this forum because I don’t like being bullied. And here you come along to restore my faith in mankind. Thank you.

I’ve drawn up a drawing, (I’m sorry but it’s in my computer. I feel like I do better with it than doing it by hand) and it’s going to be Mark 1, Revision 0 for this exercise. I know I am going to have to redraw the thing, and I don’t care. I have my back up now, and I’m just not going to let this lack of knowledge and understanding defeat me. I’ve never done that before, and I don’t intend to start now. I promise, the next one will be hand done, as you asked.

I completely agree with you that it’s better to have to work for it than to be given an answer, and I sure wish you’d tell my Calculus teacher that. She writes the problem on the board, and then the answer, and then won’t take any questions. I get told all the time, “You should already know that..."   Well hell, lady… How am I supposed to know it if you’re not teaching it? And if I’m already supposed to know it, why am I sitting in this room watching you skip all the steps between the problem and the answer? I hate her. And so does half the class.

So, here’s the first version of my drawing. I think that in the interests of uniformity, and of not having to do extra work by shaving down one of the parts to .25” I’ve changed it to be the same as the other one, at .375” thick. That way, they can be made from the same piece of flat, mild steel bar stock. (See, I’ve been researching this steel materials thing!)

I’m still fuzzy on how to represent the longitudinal grooves, mostly because I don’t know what kind of bits or tools would be used, but I hope I’m right in thinking that you as the machinist, would know that, and all I have to tell you is what they look like. Right?



FanMan said:


> _Others have talked about needing drawings so I won't add to that except to agree that yes, you need a drawing if you want a machinist to talk to you about it.
> 
> Tolerances:  Not something you worry about with woodworking, but with metalworking it's important.  Your half inch hole:  Most drills cut slightly oversize.  If you use your Forstner bit to drill a half inch hole, it'll be a half inch plus a little. It's not your eyes that can't tell the difference, you probably don't have measuring tools accurate enough (most woodworkers don't). But because that half inch hole is probably a bit oversize, your half inch dowel will slip into it... though it may be a bit tight so you have to tap it in.  But wood is forgiving.
> 
> Now take a half inch hole in metal.  Say you dimension it as such, .500 diameter.  Typical hole tolerances might  be plus or minus five thousandths (±.005).  Say your hole comes in undersize at .495 (.500-.005).  You want to put a bolt  into it that  comes in a bit oversize at .505.  No way it's gonna fit even with a BIG hammer.  To avoid that, you dimension the hole a bit oversize, a typical drilled hole for a bolt will be 1/64-1/32 (.016-.031) oversize.  That's what you need to specify on your drawing, not just 1/2".  Going oversize on the holes also allows for the holes being slightly out of position, i.e. if they don't quite line up the bolt will still fit through the overlap area.  On the other hand, if you make the holes too oversize, the fit may be too sloppy causing other problems.  Since none of us here know what your final intended use is, there's no way we can advise you on what an appropriate fit or tolerance would be.  But if you specify too-tight tolerances, it's going to cost you more._



Well, nobody ever managed to get that across to me until now, and it’s something I never understood that the bolt size might be something other than what it says it is. Ignorant stupidity on my part? Just me being naive?  That explanation of bolts and their actual measurements, and holes with their measurements really tells me that there are a lot of other details I simply never even thought about, and didn’t think I had to think about. And the worst thing is, all these people on this forum were trying to tell me that I had to worry about this, and I just didn’t see what they were saying. They were all saying this, plainly and right out in the open, and I just didn't see it.

I owe some people an apology for being a jerk about it. Thank you for taking the time to explain it in a way that I could understand it. And I hate Calculus even more now, because that witch could take ten seconds to turn the light on for half the class like you did. We’re trying to teach ourselves how to do it because she won’t.

From what I’ve seen in my research, I don’t have to use a 3/8” bolt. I could use a 7/16” bolt at .452” shank diameter, and still put it through a .50” hole, if the hole is specified to be that at a minimum. The company webpage I looked at states “All dimensions are maximum, with +/-.005” tolerance. If I’m right, that means the maximum shank diameter could be .457” and the minimum could be .447”

Now I see where tolerances come into play. Making things out of wood, well, the tools already take all of this into account, don’t they?

Geez, I feel like a total moron now. Everyone, I really apologize for being a typical know it all on this one. Wow, was I wrong. I apologize. I’ll shut up now and listen to the people who know more. That’s why I came here.

So if I say a 1/2“ hole, with +/- .01” then the hole will be somewhere between .490” and .510” right? Because .457" is still smaller than .490” with room to spare. And there won’t be much wiggle room, the way I have the overall final “thing” in mind. It will be enough. It should work perfectly. I think. And even if the 7/16" bolt is too big, I can always fall back on a 3/8" bolt.  It'll fit no matter what.

So, without further babbling on my part, here’s Mark 1, Revision 0.

Thanks.


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## JimDawson (Mar 4, 2019)

@Scootered, apology accepted   And I'm a grumpy old man who has been making metal chips for over 50 years.

Guys, let's see if we can help him through this.

@hman provided a perfectly good sample of a drawing that would suffice if you brought it into my shop.  I might have a couple questions.  I haven't looked at your updated drawing.

@Scootered, it sounds like you have some woodworking tools, metal working tools are not that much different, you just run them slower.  Drilling a 1/2 inch hole in a piece of wood with a Forstner bit will give you a pretty accurate hole..... for wood.  But you can't use a Forstner bit in metal because the bit would be destroyed, the cutting geometry is all wrong , so you are stuck with common twist drills until you get into some of the high end speciality drill bits.  But for your application a common twist drill will work fine.  Anything from the local hardware store would work for this project.

Given that you have some basic tools available, it might be time to set down with a hacksaw, a vice, a file or two, and a drill press or hand drill and make the parts you want.  That's the way I would have done this project when I was your age and had very limited tools to work with.  Getting the job done with the tools that you have will challenge your creativity.

Not knowing the application, I'm not able to offer any advice on steel alloy to use.

If you don't already own 6'' digital calipers, you can get them at Harbor Freight for about $20.  Not the best, but they are pretty accurate.  Really helpful in both metal and wood work.  https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore,f,EAFeatured+Weight,f,Sale+Rank,f&q=digital+caliper

For now I'll be looking forward to seeing some pictures of your project as you progress.


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## hman (Mar 4, 2019)

Mark 1, Revision 0 drawing looks pretty good, and complete.  Didn't check it thoroughly, but I do have a couple suggestions ...

(1) ]In one place, you call out the material as ¼" bar, in another ⅜".  From the apparent thicknesses of the 3D views, I'd have thought that the flat bottom one was going to be ¼" thick, and the rounded one ⅜".
(2) The cross section of it welded to the pipe is not really necessary.  If you want to include it, you might want to add a note that it's just for illustration purposes.
(3)Just for clarity's sake, I'd suggest rearranging the 3D views, so that the curved bottom part's views are together, and near to the appropriate end view (possibly moved, so it's above the bottom view showing the holes).  Likewise for the flat bottom part.  Then note somewhere that you'll need one of each type.

I think you've got the right basic idea.  Now it's just a matter of fine tuning.

PS - Looks like you figgered out how to produce the 2D dimensioned views with Paint Shop!  I'm a Mac user, so I had no idea that you could do that.  Good for you!


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## Scootered (Mar 4, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> @Scootered, apology accepted   And I'm a grumpy old man who has been making metal chips for over 50 years.
> 
> Guys, let's see if we can help him through this.
> 
> ...



Okay, not as difficult as I originally thought it might be. I tend to get pessimistic when I'm outside my comfort zone or knowledge area. 

Might take a heck of a lot more elbow grease than I originally thought too.  I hear they have a sale on that at Tractor Supply, so I might go see if they have some in stock. 

Can't do anything except plan until the weekend, so I've got a lot of "figgerin" to do. 

Thanks!


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## Scootered (Mar 4, 2019)

hman said:


> Mark 1, Revision 0 drawing looks pretty good, and complete.  Didn't check it thoroughly, but I do have a couple suggestions ...
> 
> (1) ]In one place, you call out the material as ¼" bar, in another ⅜".  From the apparent thicknesses of the 3D views, I'd have thought that the flat bottom one was going to be ¼" thick, and the rounded one ⅜".
> (2) The cross section of it welded to the pipe is not really necessary.  If you want to include it, you might want to add a note that it's just for illustration purposes.
> ...



Yeah, I thought about it and realized it would be better if they were both 3/8" bar, so there wouldn't be any metal removal that wasn't absolutely necessary. My big thing is getting those longitudinal grooves done. 

The cross section view is just so people here can see where the weld goes. The rest is a great idea. Thanks!

The version of Paint Shop Pro that I have came off a computer that was originally running Windows95, so I copied over a couple of files to the registry on my Win10 and it runs just fine. The date on the "about" is 1998, which is pretty old for software.


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## hman (Mar 4, 2019)

Just thought of something ...

If you're not concerned about the finish on the bottoms or sides of the bars, you can add (Stock) to the thickness and width dimensions.  That way the machinist knows he can use raw bar stock [I *think* that 1" x ⅜" is a stock size - could be wrong.]  If finish is important, not he would have to machine down from larger stock.  The difference in the cost of material is very minor, compared to machining time.  

"The version of Paint Shop Pro that I have came off a computer that was originally running Windows95, so I copied over a couple of files to the registry on my Win10 and it runs just fine." ... Yup!  And here's a great example of what's probably a generational difference.  I've used lots of computers and operating systems, but never even tried to mess with anything like registry files.  You definitely have me beat there!


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## vtcnc (Mar 4, 2019)

Here is what I would do if I were 15 and in your shoes;

Get some flat metal stock that matches your pipe material so it can be welded, I.e. if the pipe is steel, than get steel flat stock. If the pipe is aluminum, get aluminum flat stock,

Find some files, get a round one, flat one and square one. Craigslist is good for this.

Find a Hacksaw,

Find a drill press,

Find a set of calipers,

Find a bench vise,

Get some layout fluid(dykem) if that doesn’t suit you, get a sharpie,

Start laying out your grooves using your calipers in the layout fluid, file grooves by following the lines,

Layout the radius on both ends using your calipers in the layout fluid and file until you are satisfied with the fit in the pipe,

Drill the holes,

I’m not inclined to go back nearly 80 posts at this point, but it looks like you may have had counterbores as well. You will need to buy and end mil of appropriate size (or counterbore) if that is the case.

For what it’s worth, I would skip the pipe radius form and just file out a shallow angle for the clamp to sit on the pipe for welding purposes. But this is personal preference and would potentially make filing easier that’s all.

If this is for clamping for parts you may want to consider hardening and tempering the grooves once you are finished so they are tough enough to endure whatever you are planning to subject them too. For example, if you plan on clamping wood and use steel for these jaws, then hardening probably isn’t necessary, but if you plan on clamping other steel parts, you might consider heat treating them. Research YouTube for that and come back here for more questions.

You can build this! Good luck and welcome to the forum!







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MarkM (Mar 4, 2019)

Scootered!  Glad to see you here on this forum today!  You came here to learn and you asked questions.  Sometimes there is more to the question or the answer.  Your at an age now where your train of thought will carry you the rest of your life.  Don t stop asking questions no matter if you annoy people.  I too struggled in the beginning.  My first five years in my apprentiship was a struggle.  I worked in what is called a Screw Machine Shop and there was no Apprentiship program so I was very fortunate enough to have my employer enlist me in the General Machinist Program.  There both machining but very different and like I mentioned in an earlier post the process is completly different.  The others in the course worked on similar machines all day.  I new I Was behind so I threw my pride out the window and let them all know so I could hound them.  By The third year some were taking me aside when they did something at work I wouldn t t be exposed to.  I Applied myself and managed to get my license.  Now at 51 those days in those screw machine shops have taught me so much about tooling that others may not know but there are still things maybe I Should know or do better as a General machinist.  I am like you I still ask, and I do know at times I annoy people.  Even here.  I Don t mean to.  It s just me being who I am and honest and maybe not  think like I should. My ipad. Keeps messing with sorry about the edits.
My point is this.  Don t rely on aids like cad cam and your computer.  Learn the understanding behind all that.  Learn to work things out on paper with your pencil and calculator.  You are going to struggle and may think you are getting behind. A light will,go,off at some point and you will leap frog all those that relied on there aids like cad amd cam.  The world isn t perfect and when you can trouble shoot because you know those formulas and work it out on paper you will be top dog.  No one will control you.  You will be wanted and needed.  Take advantage and you will be very successful in life.  Believe in yourself,  sometimes that is all you will have.


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## MarkM (Mar 4, 2019)

I posted a sketch yesterday messy for a reason and some dimensions to get you to think like a machinist.  I made the same top view on graph paper and neat.  If you came to me with this at your age I would shut my machines off and make time for you.  It would impress me like you have asking questions.
We talked about tolerances and decimals represent a tolerance unless it is stated. So 1" is more like carpentry with plus or minus .010". Machinist divide one inch by 1000. So think of an inch as 1000 thousands. 1/2 " would be 500 thousands of an inch. We write that as .500" or could be .5". or .50".  A specific feature like a hole that may need to be tight could have it s tolerance written at that hole on the drawing of something like plus or minus .002"
My drawing has a centre hole from one edge at a distance from the edge at 1.500". The length of the pc. Is not 3 inches but 3.01".  The hole itself is a 1/4 inch hole.  If I made that length at 3.01" and was sloppy because the tolerance of just two decimal places allows me to be plus or minus .005".  and  made that length at 3.14". I could only drill that hole in the right position if I measured from the the edge as the drawing shows.  It looks like the hole is centred but it isn t.  The customer needs that hole at 1.500" from that edge.  Your half inch or one of your holes you mentioned had a tolerance of I think it was plus or minus .015".  Now if you drill all your holes and you happen to come across a drill that is at the extreme of that tolerance on the minus side will your half inch bolt fit?
For some reason I can t pull up your attachment.  Is there a chance you could put pencil to paper.  Get yourself some graph paper and keep a shop Note book you can draw on, do your math and I cant stress this enough write down and go through your order of operations.  We overthink everything just to be sure. It will save you time and and keep scrap to a minumum.
Here are the pics one is of yesterdays top view and the other two is somewhat of your part. Top view and side view.  It helps visualize the part.
This is my scribble book. Everything I make gets a drawing and math done beside it.  When I am done with it it goes in a box.  That way if I Have to repair something of my own I can easily reproduce it exactly. Trig. now is old hat just Like Calculus will be for you one day.  Continue on your path to ask questions and don t be afraid to challenge yourself and stumble.
Now your going to not only learn what you have asked but your also going to improve your abilities shop wise and skill.  Here is a my all time favourite quote from someone Many may recognize on other forums that goes by the avatar of Wigitmaster.  Kind of an oxymoron for a machinist but it makes sense for me and it was like a revelation to me..  Here goes.  "Forget about perfection, worry about progress or you ll never get off the ground"
Just ask whatever you need!


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## Wheelcock (Mar 4, 2019)

vtcnc said:


> Here is what I would do if I were 15 and in your shoes;
> 
> Get some flat metal stock that matches your pipe material so it can be welded, I.e. if the pipe is steel, than get steel flat stock. If the pipe is aluminum, get aluminum flat stock,
> 
> ...



I didn't look at your final dimensions, but if possible I would use u channel that matches your pipe if possible to make fit up to the pipe and welding easier (less warp too), otherwise agree with vtcnc


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## FanMan (Mar 4, 2019)

7/16 is .4375, not .452.  A 7/16 bolt in a 1/2" hole will be very loose, with 1/16" of clearance.  Unless you really need it loose, 1/64 to 1/32 oversize is enough.


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## MarkM (Mar 4, 2019)

Scootered are we throwing too much at you?  If you feel you need to absorb some things with better understanding just ask.


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## MarkM (Apr 26, 2019)

Hey Scootered!  How are you doing?   Won t be long and you ll be out of school.  Don t look forward to work.  Make the most.  I know you ve heard that before so it must be true!
Been awhile and thought Id rattle your chain a bit.  Now your not going to make us a believer out of bhigdog's words are you?  Would really like to see what that big secret is.  How about showing us what you ve managed.


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## Scootered (Apr 26, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Hey Scootered!  How are you doing?   Won t be long and you ll be out of school.  Don t look forward to work.  Make the most.  I know you ve heard that before so it must be true!
> Been awhile and thought Id rattle your chain a bit.  Now your not going to make us a believer out of bhigdog's words are you?  Would really like to see what that big secret is.  How about showing us what you ve managed.



Sorry gang, I've been up to my eyebrows in AP exam study. Did I mention I hate trig?

I discovered that I can get cheap tools at Harbor Freight (can't remember who it was here who suggested it, but thanks!) and I bought some things that made the working easier. They actually have little 4" grinding wheels! Bought a pack, which was much easier than a file.

I finished the first set of revisions to the "parts" and tested it out for it's intended purpose, and man, did it work exactly like I thought it would! 

I was so excited about it that I forgot to take pictures and video for you guys. 

So, tomorrow, while I have some time, and after I finish cutting the lawn, I'll take some pics and vid of the "thing" doing what I designed it to do, and show you guys what the big secret was! My neighbor said I ought to file a patent on it, and that it worked so well, and was so simple, he's surprised he's never seen it in a store. I might just look into that patent thing.

Sorry I haven't been around.  I'm almost done with it for this year, and I'll have plenty of time to do other things!


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## ThinWoodsman (Apr 27, 2019)

Scootered said:


> Sorry gang, I've been up to my eyebrows in AP exam study. Did I mention I hate trig?
> ...
> I finished the first set of revisions to the "parts" and tested it out for it's intended purpose, and man, did it work exactly like I thought it would!



Congrats!

Trigonometry is one of those things that they teach when they shouldn't. It is very useful in many trades (machining, engineering, digital signal processing, to some extent data analysis) but at the high school level you haven't encountered the sort of complex problems to which it should be applied. Don't get me started on the shortcomings of the education system, I'll be going on all day 



Scootered said:


> My neighbor said I ought to file a patent on it, and that it worked so well, and was so simple, he's surprised he's never seen it in a store. I might just look into that patent thing.



Speaking as someone who has (co-)filed patents, they ain't what they used to be. The idea is that the inventor is granted the right to produce their invention without competition; the reality is that it is an expensive process (hundreds of dollars to apply, thousands of dollars to maintain and that's without the use of a patent lawyer to draft the patent) which gives you the right to sue somebody (an even more expensive process, as the lawyers are not optional in this one) if they implement your idea - and that right ends at the border. Simply put, a patent is only worth filing if there is a market for selling the patent itself, or as part of the intellectual property armory of a large organization. I'm sure there are plenty of people who disagree with me - just ask the vendors at any county fair!


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## Reddinr (Apr 27, 2019)

One valuable thing about the patent process in my mind is the patent search to see what someone else has already done.  You may be surprised of what others have already thought of.  uspto.gov is a good place to start a preliminary search.  ThinWoodsman mentioned some of the perils and benefits of a patent.  One other benefit is some thin protection from patent trolls/patent mills.  A strongly written patent can sometimes ward them off with just a letter and reference to your patent.  I've had personal experience with this.  They tend to like soft targets and often ask for just enough $ to make it tough to decide what to do about them.  And yes, for small businesses it could cost too much to go to court.  Say you have a modest sales of $200K / year on a product.  You think it might take off in future years but you're not sure.   It wouldn't take much court time to wipe out all of the profit on that with a risk that you will lose anyway.  Another benefit is in marketing.  Sometimes customers will value "patented technology".  It can add some level of gravitas.  Sometimes customers strictly don't want patented technology so they can shop around...  No easy answers on patents.

Good luck with your project.  There are many relative newbies on this forum (like me for example) and for the most part it is a very friendly place to learn.  I do think that texts, forums and emails tend to roughen up a message and can sometimes make a well meaning message sound mean spirited when it wasn't meant to be.  I try to take things as meant in the most positive way and to not be too thin skinned.  Here anyway, it is usually the case that people are genuinely trying to help.


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## MarkM (Apr 27, 2019)

I won t go off and try and teach a lesson here but back in the day first apprentiship year at college a wise teacher said to us to make a rhyme with trig and it will stay with you all your life.  Did not remember or know a thing from school.
His rhyme was Oakville hippies are high on acid.  Yes it is actually what he said and you know what.  I look at a triangle today and that rhyme goes off in my head.  
Opposite/Hypotenuse (sine)    Adjacent/Hypotenuse(cosine) Opposite/Adjacent(tangent)
Then just remember SCT for Sine, Cosine, Tangent. I


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## Firstgear (May 4, 2019)

Reddinr said:


> One valuable thing about the patent process in my mind is the patent search to see what someone else has already done.  You may be surprised of what others have already thought of.  uspto.gov is a good place to start a preliminary search.  ThinWoodsman mentioned some of the perils and benefits of a patent.  One other benefit is some thin protection from patent trolls/patent mills.  A strongly written patent can sometimes ward them off with just a letter and reference to your patent.  I've had personal experience with this.  They tend to like soft targets and often ask for just enough $ to make it tough to decide what to do about them.  And yes, for small businesses it could cost too much to go to court.  Say you have a modest sales of $200K / year on a product.  You think it might take off in future years but you're not sure.   It wouldn't take much court time to wipe out all of the profit on that with a risk that you will lose anyway.  Another benefit is in marketing.  Sometimes customers will value "patented technology".  It can add some level of gravitas.  Sometimes customers strictly don't want patented technology so they can shop around...  No easy answers on patents.
> 
> Good luck with your project.  There are many relative newbies on this forum (like me for example) and for the most part it is a very friendly place to learn.  I do think that texts, forums and emails tend to roughen up a message and can sometimes make a well meaning message sound mean spirited when it wasn't meant to be.  I try to take things as meant in the most positive way and to not be too thin skinned.  Here anyway, it is usually the case that people are genuinely trying to help.


Having been responsible for engineering teams that have come up with products that are patented you need to be aware of a few things...

1.  Defending or prosecuting a patent if it goes to court can go over a million dollars especially when one of the litigants feel they are absolutely right even in the face of evidence that suggests otherwise.  A patent is only good if you are willing to defend it.

2.  This is a huge issue, often engineers or others become enthralled with their design and they patent that, but what they miss are the alternative ways of accomplishing the same outcome but in ways that get around the claims.  The claims are all that matters in a patent when it comes to defending or getting around.  What if one claim was avoided but it was a dependent claim, then they got around your patent.  I would often bring together the entire engineering group to find a way around the claims.  This often gave us a much stronger patent.

3.  Obtaining a patent we would use a budget between $30-$50k with outside counsel.  They are not cheap as you want the best you can get.  Inside counsel was “free”.

4.  Sometimes you end up narrowing up the claims to get your patent to issue.  Too narrow and you really just have a piece of paper that doesn’t protect you fully or as broadly as you would like.

5.  Hopefully as you have moved forward with your thoughts and ideas you have taken lots of notes that are dated and signed.  

6.  If you want to get a patent you will not want to offer it for sale until you have filed.  Realize that the laws in the USA are slightly different from the European Union and filing is required wherever you want protection.  We would often just file in key markets and in the home country of a competitor that might want to copy it.

Lots of things to think about.....


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## Firstgear (May 4, 2019)

One more thing, if you discuss in detail with anyone your idea you want to have a confidentiality agreement in place before hand.....


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## Cadillac STS (Jul 11, 2019)

I read through this from the start not knowing the thread ended.  Maybe not ended yet though?

My thought is the project looks like a set of vise jaws with one side having the radius cut out for a pipe on one side.  I would suggest searching eBay for vise jaws, picking something that is close to your dimensions and just cutting out the radius on the back side on the ones you need.  That way the grooved side is done, parts almost ready to go.  

One way to get the radius cut is to buy a carbide round cutter for a wood router.  It would hold up for a couple parts at least with making several passes slowly increasing depth.  Cutter same size as the pipe to clamp.

Open up the holes on the vise jaws or adjust the rest of the plans to use same holes especially if using an off the shelf set of jaws with standard size and placement holes would allow multiple parts made quickly.


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## stupoty (Jul 11, 2019)

MarkM said:


>



Hay that looks just like one of my note books ????


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## stupoty (Jul 11, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Scootered.  You have wasted everyone s time on this thread.  You came for help and many were willing!
> Comments were made regarding you not being honorable in your quest.
> You have proved those comments right!   A disappointment and all you have done is represent your generation in a bad way !  I have to shake my head on this thread as a complete time waster that your responsible for!



Don't be to harsh , learning how much effort goes into seemingly simple parts is a whole learning curve in itself.  And it gets every one exercising their gray matter wondering what it could be also 

Stu


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## Flyinfool (Jul 11, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Scootered.  You have wasted everyone s time on this thread.  You came for help and many were willing!
> Comments were made regarding you not being honorable in your quest.
> You have proved those comments right!   A disappointment and all you have done is represent your generation in a bad way !  I have to shake my head on this thread as a complete time waster that your responsible for!



I disagree.

A young man came here with no clue of how to proceed, many ideas were given by the members here and those ideas gave him the confidence to go ahead and make the parts he needed. Was that not the real objective? Is that not what this site is for? I only wish that @Scootered had followed through with the pics and/or vid of the final parts in action to clear up the mystery. But that is also part of the learning curve, that once you find a solution to your problem that you show off what the final solution was so that others can better learn from your endeavors. I guess with all the talk of patents, it possibly may not be appropriate to post what this is for on a public website. Bu6t I would still like to know what methods he used to create the parts that he needed, even if we can not find out what they are used for.


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## brino (Jul 11, 2019)

MarkM said:


> Scootered. You have wasted everyone s time on this thread. You came for help and many were willing!
> Comments were made regarding you not being honorable in your quest.
> You have proved those comments right! A disappointment and all you have done is represent your generation in a bad way ! I have to shake my head on this thread as a complete time waster that your responsible for!



I also disagree.

@Scootered didn't know the brick-wall of a learning curve he faced with his first project in metal.
He got very discouraged (and maybe a little short) along the way thinking his way was correct, but then a light went on.
He suddenly realized he was not right and he apologized for his attitude.
Both of those can be real tough things for a young man.

Sure, I am a little disappointed to see no follow-up with his results.
But I still find this thread very useful for the ways all these different brains approached the problem.
Especially with the lack of end-use and other variables.

Please don't make this site look too critical of newbies.......we were all there once.

Thanks!
-brino


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## Flyinfool (Jul 11, 2019)

If you read back he did apologize for his attitude and ignorance once the light bulb went on and he saw and finally understood just how wrong his thinking was. That in it's self is a step in the right direction.


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## nnam (Jul 11, 2019)

A long while back, I was lucky to find this site.  It's a place of ladies and gentlemen, a gem in a rough in the wild wide web.

Scanning throw this, it shows how the very highly respected people here put up to try to help this person, even with very odd and raw languages he used.

Too bad, it maybe an indication of his hard life ahead with that aproach in life.


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## MarkM (Jul 12, 2019)

Don t be too harsh!   Your kidding me right!  Harsh about what?  Someone came here for help or asked for it and we stepped up.  He clearly stated he was hoping to go to a shop and hopefully they would be sitting around talking and they d help him get it done.  He had more than enough oppportunity to actually learn more than just fumble around and get his project done.  No courtesy what so ever with him never responding.
I guess I am quite different and expect the younger generation to be accountable and have some honor with what they say.
 This sounds like the education system of today worried about upsetting little Johnny.   It s ok little Johnny your word doesn t have to mean anything and your entitled aren t you little Johnny.


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## markba633csi (Jul 12, 2019)

Why would a 15 year old need to learn calculus? No wonder he's got an attitude


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## pontiac428 (Jul 13, 2019)

Instead of giving a man a fish, give him a highly regarded reference book on fishing. If he won't read, he'll starve.

People just aren't as curious about learning the way things are done in the age of smartphones and American Idol pageants. I'm very hesitant to help someone out in my shop these days because the entertainment isn't new and constant.. If you're not inspired by the process, then just take your idea to a job shop and open up your checkbook.


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## Dabbler (Jul 25, 2019)

I think it is time to issue a warning to a few of the members here.  WE DON'T FLAME OTHER MEMBERS.  PERIOD.  There are at least 3 members that need to PM the OP with a sincere apology.

- if you don't like  a thread or the OP of a thread, then stop reading it.  Shunning is a fine way to deal with things, and people with more patience can take over.

One of the members that I'm hinting at will be issued a last warning this week for violations of this kind in several threads.  I would hope the others will take this warning to heart before further action is required.  I want those concerned to take this as an official warning.


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## MarkM (Jul 25, 2019)

Don t you worry about a thing!


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## nnam (Jul 25, 2019)

I missed the post he apologized.  I think he will be fine, contrary to my earlier impression.  I think the earlier suggestion to read up on "tolerance" was somehow didn't went through well and got misunderstood. It could be due to being burried in a large reponse.  Later on, explanation about the need for higher precision did the trick, whick is regrettedly abit late in the thread.  At the end, it appears he successfully  made what he wanted to make.

I think there is a lesson learned for us from both sides here.  He was explicit about 15 year old, so I would say the response should be straight to the point (such as preface question with reasons for the question, such as due to metal doesn't shrink nor bend as much as wood, although it also does)  right in the beginning, versus asking question first.

I am not sure the post above implied me in it, but I came very late to the thread to scan through just to see what it's all about.  I missed a few important details when scanning quickly through the 4 pages.  So I am sorry if writing that I guessed he may have a rough path in life due to missing one important post he made would be unconstructive.  I did voice  admiration some people who had patient to keep coming back and explain to him.  So that's the gist of what I wrote.  He was successful at the end was good to hear.


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## Illinoyance (Jul 25, 2019)

Those parts look like great candidates for investment casting.


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## Cadillac STS (Jul 29, 2019)

Maybe the OP will come back after summer vacation?  Went on a trip with no electronics?  Camps like that are getting popular.  Off grid somewhere with just outdoors?


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