# New PM-1228VF-LB



## StormForge (Sep 30, 2017)

Hi All!   I'm a new forum member and just took delivery of a new PM-1228VF-LB.  Everything looks very nice so far.  It was well-packed, the build quality looks great, and it fired up first time with no problems.  I'm a little puzzled with the main carriage feed which has a dial marked in 16-thousandths of an inch per line with 95 lines per revolution.  I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with that -- I guess I need to buy a DRO   ?

First question for anyone who has assembled one of these:  What are these two black metal channels that came with the stand?  I don't see them in any of the diagrams and they don't seem to have an obvious purpose?







Thanks!
-Bill


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## Bob Korves (Sep 30, 2017)

StormForge said:


> I guess I need to buy a DRO  ?


Use a magnetic back dial indicator mounted parallel with the front bed ways, indicating carriage travel.  Cheaper than a DRO...    The issue is likely a metric bed rack.  Using carriage hand wheels is not a very accurate or easy thing anyway, in my experience, though my lathe is Chinese as well...


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## StormForge (Sep 30, 2017)

Thanks Bob - that's a good option.   My old benchtop lathe was inferior in every way except it had a 0.001" dial which moved the carriage 0.1" per revolution -- very handy and pretty easy to get (fairly) accurate results.  The hand-wheel on the 1228 moves the carriage 1.5" per revolution which worries me a bit since it seems like it may be hard to physically move the wheel in 0.001" increments.  Maybe I'm worried about nothing though -- I'll do some cuts this afternoon and find out!


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## Bob Korves (Sep 30, 2017)

StormForge said:


> My old benchtop lathe was inferior in every way except it had a 0.001" dial which moved the carriage 0.1" per revolution


.1"/revolution, that would be sloooooow for re-positioning the carriage...


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## fradish (Sep 30, 2017)

The metal channels are just for shipping.


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## StormForge (Sep 30, 2017)

Thanks Frank!  Although my metal channels came wrapped in bubble wrap?!? 
B0b -- yeah, it could take a while to run the carriage to the other end -- but it was a small machine...


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## StormForge (Sep 30, 2017)

So, how do folks deal with carriage handwheels that move a lot for each turn?  Do you just develop a knack for turning the handwheel in very small increments, or do you use the compound for lots of your X travel on small/fine parts?


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## fradish (Sep 30, 2017)

That's odd!  My lathe was bolted to the bottom of the box through those.  I forget exactly 
how it was done, but my chip pan was a little bent (really minor) and I remember that the
lathe was bolted through the chip pan and into those channels.  I kept them thinking I'll use
them for something some day.


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## fradish (Sep 30, 2017)

You may be interested in this post...

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm1228-compound-t-nuts.62477/


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## Aukai (Sep 30, 2017)

Humph, at least you got yours. I heard the container was in, but no communication if it passed QA, and if it was going to ship yet. Happy for you


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

fradish said:


> You may be interested in this post...
> 
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm1228-compound-t-nuts.62477/



Thanks Frank!  Yeah, my compound binds up instantly if I rotate it past the T-nut hole.  But if I'm careful to loosen the compound lock nuts just a little bit until it moves then there's no problem.  Something to fix when I have time.  I wonder why PM doesn't install some new T-nuts when they do their QC?


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

Aukai said:


> Humph, at least you got yours. I heard the container was in, but no communication if it passed QA, and if it was going to ship yet. Happy for you



They were really good with communication on my order and it shipped pretty quickly once their container was in -- although my order was in June so I may have been near the top of the list?  Maybe shoot them another email?


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

Here are some setup pictures.  It came through shipping well although several heavy items like the 4-jaw were just tossed into the crate.  The stand is sturdy and has pretty decent fit and finish.  I didn't have any problems getting the lathe lifted and bolted down.  A quick cut on some brass rod was pretty ugly so now I'm doing the first quick tune-up and shimming/leveling.  There's a lot of binding in the compound feed to sort out as well.  Overall, however, I'm very pleased with this machine!


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## .LMS. (Oct 1, 2017)

Frank Hoose did an awesome set of videos on youtube about this lathe.   Here is the first one, the other ones follow it:






I am seriously considering buying the same lathe.    To me though, the stand seems kinda flimsy at 90 lbs.    What are your thoughts on it?

LMS


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

Hey LMS -- I was pleasantly surprised with the stand.  Many of the sheet metal parts are very heavy (4-5mm?) and the fit and finish are pretty good compared to similar import stands I've seen.  Genuinely "OK" welds and decent paint.  It came with good hardware and assembly was straightforward.  I'd definitely buy the stand again.









I'll have more thoughts in this thread about the lathe itself as I get it up and running.


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

The first thing that needed a little attention was the compound slide -- crunchy and binding in an unpleasant way.  I pulled it apart and cleaned a lot of gritty grease out.  I think the main problem is that the graduated dial is too thick so that binds between the handle and the bearing face of the slide.  For now I added a washer and things turn smoothly.  Maybe when I get a chance I'll take 0.015 off that dimension.  You can also see a few pretty good dings on the dovetails.  I stoned these gently and I don't really think they'll cause much trouble?


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## Aukai (Oct 1, 2017)

Looks great, I bought the stand as well, may I ask what your shipping weight ended up? Mine has a big trip ahead of it, and is going to have added freight. Thank you


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

Hey Aukai -- Shipping to Hawaii must be rough!   How much does that generally add to the cost?  My total weight with lathe, stand, and a 4-jaw chuck was listed as 780 pounds.  The lathe and accessories came in a wooden crate and the stand was in a cardboard carton strapped on top.


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

Ahh -- update to below before I confuse everyone -- it turns out there is a little set screw which I didn't see that tightens this.  It still seems awfully loose  

 ----

Hmm...   Got the compound back together and there's tons of play (along the axis of compound platform motion).  Pulled it back apart and noticed that the feed nut, which lives in a recess in the bottom of the little compound platform, is super loose.  I think this should be a very snug fit with almost no play at all.

Here's a video of the play in the nut -- as I'm wiggling the nut I'm actually pushing it into its hole.


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## Aukai (Oct 1, 2017)

Thank you for the weights, Matt's 200 plus 350.00 figured at 650#, so the freight will go up.
There is a post by fradish above about those nuts, and the modification to keep them from jamming. Not sure if it will fix the looseness though.


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

Finished my first quick tune-up,  got it all back together, and snugged up the gibs a little bit.  Here's a quick cut in some soft brass.  This was at 2000 RPM with a used carbide insert.  Looks pretty good.  Diameter is within 0.001 (or the resolution of my Mitutoyo calipers) from end to end.  Surface finish is very nice near the chuck and just a little rough out at the end of the part.  I'd say that's certainly a good start!


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## .LMS. (Oct 1, 2017)

How'd it sound at 2000rpm?


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## StormForge (Oct 1, 2017)

The machine is very quiet and very smooth compared to most machines I've used.  Quite a bit louder at 2000 RPM than it is at 500 RPM though.


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## StormForge (Oct 2, 2017)

Runout and tailstock alignment seem pretty good -- at least within the limits of my setup.  I'm seeing something like +/- 0.00075 " when running the carriage from one end to the other and about +/-0.001 when I spin the chuck with the indicator in the middle of the bar (of course, that probably just means the bar isn't straight...).

All suggestions for a better way to check this are welcome!


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## Bob Korves (Oct 2, 2017)

To check the spindle, indicate on the internal spindle taper while you turn the spindle.  Measure what you want to measure directly whenever possible, adding additional stuff just compromises and confuses the results.


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## StormForge (Oct 2, 2017)

Thanks Bob!   That's a good approach.  I also like this setup exactly because it (more or less) checks the whole stackup all together.  Then if I see a problem I go back and check individual components.  Although I suppose my approach could just show two different errors canceling each other out!


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## Bob Korves (Oct 2, 2017)

Two unknowns used together randomly will always be an variable unknown.  If you are searching for truth, you need to account for and test every thing that can affect the results, and keep track of it all.  Sometimes errors can work for you rather than against you.  If your spindle is out .001" and the mounted tool is also out .001", you can mark the high spots and then place them opposite each other to cancel the error.  Lack of keeping track of things potentially causes larger errors, while keeping track of them helps to eliminate errors.  "Faith" is not a word used by true metrologists and fussy machinists.  In general, it is assumed that errors stack up.  Simplicity is bliss...

Edit: By far, most work simply does not matter very much.  Close enough is close enough.  When testing your new lathe to see if it meets specifications, now we are talking important.  If you don't, you will never really know what you have there.  It is a good plan for you to test it.


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## mikey (Oct 2, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> To check the spindle, indicate on the internal spindle taper while you turn the spindle.  Measure what you want to measure directly whenever possible, adding additional stuff just compromises and confuses the results.



+1 to Bob's recommendation. It is really important to know what the concentricity of your spindle is because it affects whatever is bolted onto it. Just to expand on Bob's recommendation, I suggest the following:

Set up your DTI with the arms of your indicator holder folded fairly close to the magnet. The more extension, the more flex you have. Even the old style two bar holders can be more rigid than a Noga-style holder. 

Mark the spindle somewhere with a Sharpie and if you can, rig a pointer to align with the mark. 

Clean the spindle taper - twice at least to be sure its clean.
Bring the DTI into contact with the taper at 6 O'clock just inside the taper, preload it by about 0.015" and zero the dial. Be sure your Sharpie mark and pointer are aligned.

Turn the spindle 360 degrees and realign the pointer with the mark and be sure the indicator returns to precisely zero. If it does then your set up is "repeatable". 

Turn the spindle 360 degrees but this time, watch for any deviation from zero. The largest deviation is your spindle TIR. Concentricity is NOT checked under power.

Repeat this in one or two more places inside the taper to be sure the taper isn't the issue. If you get the same results then you can be sure that the TIR is really the TIR of the spindle. THEN you can see if it falls within specs. 
Once you have a baseline on your spindle run out then you can pretty much rely on it. For example, if you had zero spindle run out and slapped a 3 jaw chuck on it with an accurate ground rod loaded then whatever run out you see on that rod is due to the chuck, the rod, headstock alignment, saddle alignment or whatever. This allows you to eliminate one thing at a time until you minimize any issues. But you need a baseline first and that begins with knowing how concentric the spindle is.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 2, 2017)

Mike gave you the long and correct version of testing the spindle taper.  Thanks, Mike.  By checking it at four clock positions and three depth locations and mapping the errors you can find out if any measured errors describe
1. Out of round
2. Out of alignment with the spindle axis (skewed taper axis)
3. Turned accurately to a center that is parallel to the spindle axis
4. Some combination of the above
5. Perfection (hopefully!)
That is a 3D look at the internal spindle taper with just a few simple measurements written in graphical format on a piece of paper.


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## mikey (Oct 2, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Mike gave you the long and correct version of testing the spindle taper.  Thanks, Mike.  By checking it at four clock positions and three depth locations and mapping the errors you can find out if any measured errors describe
> 1. Out of round
> 2. Out of alignment with the spindle axis (skewed taper axis)
> 3. Turned accurately to a center that is parallel to the spindle axis
> ...



Agreed, Bob. Anal now avoids being confused later! Nothing is more stupid looking than a confused Hawaiian!


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## StormForge (Oct 4, 2017)

Thanks for the great advice gentlemen!  I will do some more measurements soon.  I got too restless and had to cut some metal.  This was a good little test:










Although I made a few mistakes, the lathe did well.  I did have some trouble dealing with the very coarse ratio on the carriage handwheel but hopefully that's something that I'll learn to work with.


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## Aukai (Oct 4, 2017)

Looks nice, probably a little heavier than the ones we wrapped string around, and tossed at school......Age check.....


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## Bob Korves (Oct 4, 2017)

You can set the compound parallel with the spindle axis and advance the tool with the compound and with the carriage locked for finer work.  You can also power feed at a slow rate.  A magnetic back indicator on the ways indicating carriage travel can also be your friend.


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## StormForge (Oct 6, 2017)

I did a quick set of runout measurements as suggested above.  It's really probably beyond the resolution of my indicator, but it looks like the highest numbers I was seeing were +/- 0.00025".  No worries there for the sorts of things I normally do!

Here are a few pictures for anyone else interested in the lathe.  This is the spindle.  You can see one of 4 hall-sensor magnets around the circumference:






Here is the power-supply / drive board.  Looks pretty nice with good heat-shrink, wire labels, covers for the terminal blocks, etc...:






Here's the only really ugly thing I've found so far.  This is the lock for the main carriage.  I polished it up a bit and I think it's fine:


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## StormForge (Oct 7, 2017)

More tweaking.  I added an adjustable-position handle for the carriage lock and made myself a little stubby (and tight-fitting) allen key for the cross-slide lock.  Useful mods that will save me from always having to dig for the right tool when I need to make a more precise cut:


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## Aukai (Oct 7, 2017)

I am following along, watching intently. My machine should have left the building this week, probably see it next month.


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## StormForge (Oct 7, 2017)

Hey Aukai -- I hope your lathe has a safe trip!  I'll keep updating this thread as I learn new things.


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## StormForge (Oct 7, 2017)

This carriage stop (and carriage drive shaft clutch) are super handy and the stop seems well-made -- but as delivered it crashes into the screws for the threading indicator:






Some quick grinding on the bottom edge of the stop fixed the problem.


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## Aukai (Oct 7, 2017)

StormForge said:


> This carriage stop (and carriage drive shaft clutch) are super handy and the stop seems well-made -- but as delivered it crashes into the screws for the threading indicator:
> 
> View attachment 243629
> 
> ...



How did Matt let that get by.LOL Seems I'm going to be busy when mine gets here.


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## mikey (Oct 7, 2017)

Doesn't the carriage stop have a bolt that contacts the carriage? I've never seen a carriage stop without one.


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## StormForge (Oct 7, 2017)

Aukai -- all things considered, I'm feeling pretty good about the 1228.  Fifteen years ago a similar import lathe would have had 10X more things to do!

Mike -- this carriage stop is a clamp style with a SHCS holding the top and bottom parts together.


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## mikey (Oct 7, 2017)

Most carriage stops clamp to the ways with screws or bolts. I'm talking about a screw that runs horizontally that allows you to fine-tune the point at which the carriage stops. Like this:







There should be some provision for this. There are all sorts of fancier ones, from sliding pins to micrometer dials, but there is always some fine-tuning device.


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## StormForge (Oct 7, 2017)

Mike -- nothing like that here but maybe I'll add it along with an adjustable-position handle like in your picture.  Here's the stop that came with the 1228:


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## mikey (Oct 7, 2017)

Wow! First, that stop doesn't even fit the ways of your lathe, and second, you're right - no bolt. I would not use that thing. Make one yourself before you damage the ways. Here is how the stop contours should fit the ways:




PM me if you're not sure how to make one.


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## Aukai (Oct 7, 2017)

Uh oh.....


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## mikey (Oct 7, 2017)

It may be that the stop in the StormForge's pic was not sitting correctly so I wouldn't worry yet, Aukai. If it sits flat on the ways then you can just drill and tap for a bolt and you should be good.


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## Aukai (Oct 7, 2017)

The profile looks good but oversized.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 7, 2017)

Aukai said:


> The profile looks good but oversized.


Oversized is no issue, as long as the angles are correct.  Look at Mike's, it has the same oversize.


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## mikey (Oct 7, 2017)

Bob is right; its the angles that must fit.

I made this one for my friend's Emco Compact 8 because Emco never made one. There are springs under the brass washers that lift the locking plate away from the ways so you can just slip the stop off the lathe. It is made from 6061-T6, which is more than strong enough for this application.


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## StormForge (Oct 7, 2017)

The stop does fit (it's just loose in the pic).  It's pretty narrow in profile, however, and it also stops the carriage by impacting the wiper...  It could certainly be significantly improved.  I like the pictures I see above!


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## mikey (Oct 7, 2017)

StormForge said:


> The stop does fit (it's just loose in the pic).  It's pretty narrow in profile, however, and it also stops the carriage by impacting the wiper...  It could certainly be significantly improved.  I like the pictures I see above!



Maybe you can just drill and tap for a screw with a very flat head or just thread on a nylon cap like mine. This is just to prevent marring or damaging the carriage.


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## .LMS. (Oct 7, 2017)

StormForge - I am loving the updates.   Keep 'em coming!


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## StormForge (Oct 8, 2017)

Spent the morning today doing some threading and boring just for practice and fun.

I made a little storage jar from 6061.  It's very far from perfect, but I'm stupidly pleased with it.  The old Starrett was my grandfather's and is just standing in for visual interest:










The threading setup seems to work well and can do most of the common threads with no gear changes (and I only missed a line on the threading dial once   ).

The finish in 6061 is fantastic on slow power feed -- I wasn't really even trying and it looks great.

The thread/feed drive gears have a simple rocker-arm which allows you to loosen a SHCS and rotate either a forward or reverse threading/feed gear into place (the spindle itself has 1-button direction change).  These gears work well but require a little finesse to get them to mesh quietly and smoothly -- snug the gears up and then back off just a little before you tighten the SHCS.


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## Aukai (Oct 8, 2017)

Add an O ring groove, and it's water proof. Looks pretty spiffy....


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## StormForge (Oct 8, 2017)

Yeah -- I was actually digging around in my bins for the right size O-ring but didn't see one...


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## Bob Korves (Oct 8, 2017)

StormForge said:


> These gears work well but require a little finesse to get them to mesh quietly and smoothly -- snug the gears up and then back off just a little before you tighten the SHCS.


Putting a strip of ordinary paper between the teeth of both gears and then firmly pushing the two gears together is simple, easy, and gives good, quick, and consistent results.  Rotate the gears to remove the paper...


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## StormForge (Oct 8, 2017)

Nice -- that's a great tip Bob, I'll try it!


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## StormForge (Oct 10, 2017)

I spent some more time tweaking things.  The measurement dials on the cross-slide and the tailstock were very stiff.  I pulled everything apart and lightly honed all the dial surfaces and things move smoothly now.

I tried out the PM 4-jaw chuck which I bought with the lathe and it seems very nice.  It's a D1-4 and seemed to fit well except that I had to unscrew the cam-locks so far from the back that the cap-screws which are supposed to prevent the cams from rotating are below the cams and don't do anything...  Also, one of the cams seems to be either too tight (fully tight at the 3:00 position) or, when unscrewed one more turn, too loose (can be rotated past the 6:00 position).  Any tricks with these?

I also spent some time cleaning up and sorting out my tooling.  Shars had a well-timed sale on AXA tool holders which was nice!


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## Aukai (Oct 11, 2017)

Do you have any thoughts on leveling feet/castors for the stand. Seems you did pretty good on alignment.


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## StormForge (Oct 12, 2017)

Hey Aukai -- I was pretty lucky and the section of floor where I put the lathe is both surprisingly level and flat.  The stands are stiff enough that I was able to get everything level and solid by just adding a few shims and wedges under various corners.  I think a much better approach would have been to add some proper feet.  There are nice mounting points in all 4 corners of each stand that you can see in one of my pictures above.  Maybe eight little adjustable leveling feet?  McMaster has a huge selection:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#levels/=19s16m6


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## Aukai (Oct 12, 2017)

double post


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## Aukai (Oct 12, 2017)

StormForge said:


> Hey Aukai -- I was pretty lucky and the section of floor where I put the lathe is both surprisingly level and flat.  The stands are stiff enough that I was able to get everything level and solid by just adding a few shims and wedges under various corners.  I think a much better approach would have been to add some proper feet.  There are nice mounting points in all 4 corners of each stand that you can see in one of my pictures above.  Maybe eight little adjustable leveling feet?  McMaster has a huge selection:
> 
> https://www.mcmaster.com/#levels/=19s16m6


Thank you for the link, I sent Matt an email asking what the threads are.


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## Aukai (Oct 12, 2017)

Aukai said:


> Thank you for the link, I sent Matt an email asking what the threads are.


Matt got back to me, non threaded 9/16 holes. Those are some good size holes.


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## StormForge (Oct 13, 2017)

Interesting toolpost shenanigans.  It turns out that the dovetails of the Precision Matthews AXA tool holders are significantly wider than those of the Shars tool holders.  The Shars holders wouldn't even start to fit onto the top of the PM AXA post.  I took the toolpost apart and noticed that the jaws could not rise all the way up in their tracks because the top edges of the jaws were square features trying to slip into a round recess.  I rounded off the top edges of each jaw with a file and now the post will "open up" enough to accept the Shars tool holders.  Here's the spot that needed some work:


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## Aukai (Oct 13, 2017)

On ebay there are 2 Shars tool holders pictured. One says China, the other does not, and there was a fitment issue between the 2. Hope I have the right ones, thank you for the pictures.


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## StormForge (Oct 16, 2017)

I just got some glass scales from China.  Still waiting on the DRO, but I think I will get the scales mounted up.  Can someone who has worked with these give me a sense of how critical the alignment of the sensor to the scale is?  Do I have a little wiggle-room for positioning, or does it need to be spot on? I assume that there can/should be a small gap between the sensor piece and the scale?  Thanks!


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## Aukai (Nov 4, 2017)

Well one month later my 1228 is at home, 800 bucks total shipping. It's all together, but have been working, so have not had time to do anything to/with it yet. Did we ever figure out what the 2 black channels that were bubble wrapped are for? Thank you


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## StormForge (Nov 5, 2017)

Hey Aukai -- no, I never saw a use for those channels.  Someone in the thread above thought they were intended for shipping, but mine were all wrapped in bubble wrap...   Please let me know if you figure it out!

I got my $168 Chinese DRO all mounted up and it's working really well so far.  I'll post some pictures if I get a chance.


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## Aukai (Nov 5, 2017)

StormForge said:


> Hey Aukai -- no, I never saw a use for those channels.  Someone in the thread above thought they were intended for shipping, but mine were all wrapped in bubble wrap...   Please let me know if you figure it out!
> 
> I got my $168 Chinese DRO all mounted up and it's working really well so far.  I'll post some pictures if I get a chance.


Thank you, I'm waiting for my DRO from PM also. I'm wondering if it's for use if you do not buy the stand, it won't go on with the reinforcement/gussets  inside of the cabinet.
Aloha Mike


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