# Shaper Scraping Help



## Pete301 (Jan 15, 2020)

I started scraping a SB shaper awhile ago. Teaching myself to scrape because I wanted to save this shaper. I have the ram scraped and wanted to move on to the next step, which is, I think, scraping the flat ways on the main column. The shaper has dovetail on ram/columns. So I first measured to see if the ram was moving out at a right angle to the vertical  table ways on the column. I put a right angle straight edge against the ways (see photo) and used a DTI to measure along the straight edge. I had .003 of raise. I know I should leave .001 of raise in the ram shaper.
  I’m  embarrassed to say this, but I can’t seem to confidently figure out how much to scrape off the flat ways on the column to leave a rise of just.001.  Not sure I’m figuring it out right, but the last photo shows the amount of material to be removed and locations I came up with.  Am I anywhere near right?
Pete


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## cjtoombs (Jan 15, 2020)

Richard should probably chime in on this, but this is my take.  You need to get a piece of scrap cast iron and measure how much you remove per pass when you scrape.  It will probably be around .0003".  Once you know this, you can draw some lines with a marker, like terraces or elevation lines on a map (which is what they actually are).  Once you have that done, start at the high side and scrape both directions up to the first line, then both directions from the end to the second line (re-covering the area you scraped on the first pass).  Continue this across the surface until you have reached your last line This will reduce change the slope by the number of passes you take off times your removal rate per pass, so you can keep track of where you are based on how many passes you have made on the high end.  You can re-measure as you go along to ensure you don't overshoot.  Once you get there angle wise, you can scrape it flat.  Another option would be to scrape the cross slide and table in so that they are at a slight angle, to match the ram ways so that the ram and table are parallel, which may be easier from a scraping standpoint.  The way a shaper is set up and worked, the perpendicularity of the front ram ways is less important than the ram being parallel to the table.


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## eeler1 (Jan 15, 2020)

Good question!  I’m interested in the responses. 

Why not indicate against the top of the table instead of the square?  Or something clamped in your vise?  If it cuts straight and true, you might already be done.


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## Pete301 (Jan 15, 2020)

cjtoombs said:


> Richard should probably chime in on this, but this is my take.  You need to get a piece of scrap cast iron and measure how much you remove per pass when you scrape.  It will probably be around .0003".  Once you know this, you can draw some lines with a marker, like terraces or elevation lines on a map (which is what they actually are).  Once you have that done, start at the high side and scrape both directions up to the first line, then both directions from the end to the second line (re-covering the area you scraped on the first pass).  Continue this across the surface until you have reached your last line This will reduce change the slope by the number of passes you take off times your removal rate per pass, so you can keep track of where you are based on how many passes you have made on the high end.  You can re-measure as you go along to ensure you don't overshoot.  Once you get there angle wise, you can scrape it flat.  Another option would be to scrape the cross slide and table in so that they are at a slight angle, to match the ram ways so that the ram and table are parallel, which may be easier from a scraping standpoint.  The way a shaper is set up and worked, the perpendicularity of the front ram ways is less important than the ram being parallel to the table.


Thanks, I appreciate the info and I’ll keep all that in mind when I start the step scraping. But first, I’m hoping someone can tell me a formula or method to figure out how much to scrape off.  I have a rise of .003 over 6” of indicator travel. I guess I should have paid more attention to my high school geometry teacher, but that was 50 plus years ago !! 
Pete


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## catsparadise (Jan 16, 2020)

I'll see if I can help with this. I have a 10" shaper sat in my garage waiting to be restored and the ways will need scraping. Unfortunately for the shaper it's got to wait for me to finish rebuilding my surface grinder!

If I understand it correctly, 6" of travel of the ram raises the ram by 0.003" and you're after a rise of 0.001", a change of 0.002" over 6" or 4 thou per foot. You'll need to adjust the angle of the column ways by the same amount, that is, if the column ways are 12" long, the tops of the column ways would need scraping to remove 0.004" whilst the bottom of the column ways would be untouched. If the column ways are not 12" long the amount to remove from the top needs to be scaled accordingly, ie 9" column ways need 9/12 x 0.004 = 0.003" removed.

The angles are too small to have to resort to trigonometry.

I'd get someone to verify what I've written above is correct before you remove any metal, ... please!

Rob


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## Pete301 (Jan 16, 2020)

catsparadise said:


> I'll see if I can help with this. I have a 10" shaper sat in my garage waiting to be restored and the ways will need scraping. Unfortunately for the shaper it's got to wait for me to finish rebuilding my surface grinder!
> 
> If I understand it correctly, 6" of travel of the ram raises the ram by 0.003" and you're after a rise of 0.001", a change of 0.002" over 6" or 4 thou per foot. You'll need to adjust the angle of the column ways by the same amount, that is, if the column ways are 12" long, the tops of the column ways would need scraping to remove 0.004" whilst the bottom of the column ways would be untouched. If the column ways are not 12" long the amount to remove from the top needs to be scaled accordingly, ie 9" column ways need 9/12 x 0.004 = 0.003" removed.
> 
> ...



Hi Rob. Thanks for that info. Exactly what i needed! I was having trouble “seeing” .002 over 6” needs to be .004 over 12”. My column is 12” long so your figures match my shaper. In the meantime I found a video by lookcreations where he used that used that very same method to figure the amount of material to remove on his ram. So with that confirmation I’m going to start. 

   The fuller story on this shaper is that it has given me problems since the day I brought it home. It cuts a taper up to .006 over 4” on its outboard end. Thought I could just shim the workpiece to get it to cut true. And that worked, but I found I keep having to adjust the shims. Took me a very long time to realize the depth of cut was effecting the taper. Deeper the cut, bigger the taper. The cross rail turned out to be part of the problem. Too much slop. So I scraped it to true. That left me with a smaller, but consistent taper  regardless of cut depth ( which was good!). And it’s the ram pointing up that is causing the remaining taper. Or so I hope


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## Bob Korves (Jan 16, 2020)

Pete301 said:


> I started scraping a SB shaper awhile ago. Teaching myself to scrape because I wanted to save this shaper. I have the ram scraped and wanted to move on to the next step, which is, I think, scraping the flat ways on the main column. The shaper has dovetail on ram/columns. So I first measured to see if the ram was moving out at a right angle to the vertical  table ways on the column. I put a right angle straight edge against the ways (see photo) and used a DTI to measure along the straight edge. I had .003 of raise. I know I should leave .001 of raise in the ram shaper.
> I’m  embarrassed to say this, but I can’t seem to confidently figure out how much to scrape off the flat ways on the column to leave a rise of just.001.  Not sure I’m figuring it out right, but the last photo shows the amount of material to be removed and locations I came up with.  Am I anywhere near right?
> Pete


You are going at it backwards.  The place to start is at the reference surface of the machine, the front face of the main casting.  The flat surfaces there are unworn and in original condition.  Carefully stone them with a flat and fine stone to only remove any burs you feel, and then use it to scrape the table ways of the column to match the front surface, then scrape in the table vertical ways and the gibs to fit the table so it travels parallel to the reference surface.  Next would be making the top of the table perpendicular to the reference surface in both directions, and only then do you try to align the ram with the top of the table.  The sequence of operations is highly important to reconditioning a machine.

Full disclosure.  I do not have experience with reconditioning on shapers.  The information above is how a vertical mill is approached.  It is not clear in my mind how the table and cross slide are actually attached to the shaper, so that may change things.  Regardless, use the reference surface that the factory put on the base casting to start the work, and proceed incrementally from there in a logical sequence.


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## Pete301 (Jan 16, 2020)

Bob Korves said:


> You are going at it backwards.  The place to start is at the reference surface of the machine, the front face of the main casting.  The flat surfaces there are unworn and in original condition.  Carefully stone them with a flat and fine stone to only remove any burs you feel, and then use it to scrape the table ways of the column to match the front surface, then scrape in the table vertical ways and the gibs to fit the table so it travels parallel to the reference surface.  Next would be making the top of the table perpendicular to the reference surface in both directions, and only then do you try to align the ram with the top of the table.  The sequence of operations is highly important to reconditioning a machine.
> 
> Full disclosure.  I do not have experience with reconditioning on shapers.  The information above is how a vertical mill is approached.  It is not clear in my mind how the table and cross slide are actually attached to the shaper, so that may change things.  Regardless, use the reference surface that the factory put on the base casting to start the work, and proceed incrementally from there in a logical sequence.


Hi Bob. I’m using the vertical ways on the column because I don’t see a “reference surface”. The vertical ways don’t get much wear relative to the other surfaces so it seemed like the best place to start from. I attached a photo of the shaper in case I’m missing a better reference point. 
Pete


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## Bob Korves (Jan 16, 2020)

Pete,
The very top and the very bottom ends of the vertical ways are likely unworn.  I would use them for getting the geometry correct, with a long enough accurate square to span the distance.  Actually, if you already used the ram ways to scrape the top truly flat and parallel, you could use it as the reference surface, using a large and accurate square to get them square with each other.  The issue there is that the entire faces of both the ram and vertical surfaces also need to be perpendicular to each other as well, so something like the accurate version of a framing square could not generate perpendicular planes.


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## Pete301 (Jan 16, 2020)

Bob Korves said:


> Pete,
> The very top and the very bottom ends of the vertical ways are likely unworn.  I would use them for getting the geometry correct, with a long enough accurate square to span the distance.  Actually, if you already used the ram ways to scrape the top truly flat and parallel, you could use it as the reference surface, using a large and accurate square to get them square with each other.  The issue there is that the entire faces of both the ram and vertical surfaces also need to be perpendicular to each other as well, so something like the accurate version of a framing square could not generate perpendicular planes.


Hi Bob.   Thanks again!  Based on that, I think I’m on the right track. My cross rail is scraped perpendicular to the vertical ways and the table top is perpendicular to the vertical ways. So if I can get the ram to move perpendicular to the vertical ways, all should be good. 
Pete


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 11, 2020)

I just saw this.....I'll come back and comment later...I've been busy scraping a machine for $$   I just helped scrape a Cinc. 36" shaper in Florida..


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## Janderso (Feb 11, 2020)

You and Kieth are scraping the planer and shaper?
There is a lot of talent in that shop right now!


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 11, 2020)

All you guys know I love Keith as a friend and he helped get me known on the You Tube forums.  But I was helping him and Lance B scrape the machine.  I was in the next room teaching a class and would go in and consult on the rebuild they were attempting on the shaper for the host who is a friend of theirs.   I hate to say it as but they were making some simple alignment mistakes until I checked in on them.  Having the right tools and a rudimentary understanding of scraping doesn't automatically make you an expert and you cam or even should try to teach it.   I have to go now...a paying rebuild job awaits me.    Remember you can't believe everything you see on You Tube.


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 13, 2020)

Question one.   Have photo's of the top of base before you started?  The factory machined the top clearance at the same time they planed the ways. u So You could have depth miked down from the clearance to ways to see what the factory left it.  Usually there are  unworn areas next to the wear where you can measure to get that info. I just checked the G. Schlesinger book Testing Machine Tools and it says to leave the ram travel  to column so as it travels out  it is .0008" in 12" inclined up.  They do that because the ram sags and the front of ram base wears there first because of that
s where the dirt gets in first.   I  to say this, but I bet it was better before you decided to scrape it.   That square your using does not look precision.  Did you have it tested before using it?  That square should be .0002" / 12 inches minimum.    The picture shows the host scraping the inner unworn area down before we used the ram to blue up the top.  How did you scrape the ram?   On a table like Keith is doing?  Have photo's of that?


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 13, 2020)

I just spent an hour looking fir South Bend Shapers and a 7" is all I could find.   It looks like the ways weren't scraped.  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...AFA16E700C9954FA1670AFA16E700C995&FORM=WRVORC


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 13, 2020)

Here is some super pictures of the shaper...look at page 2 and 3 too



			South Bend Shaper


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## Pete301 (Feb 14, 2020)

Richard King 2 said:


> Here is some super pictures of the shaper...look at page 2 and 3 too
> 
> 
> 
> South Bend Shaper



Hi Richard.... Thank you for the time and effort you spent looking up South Bend shaper videos and thru reference books...
    I recall that you've said one needs to do detective work on a machine before you start scraping. This shaper needed Sherlock Holmes (or maybe you)!! 
  When I bought it the previous owner said a past owner had it "ground" (??) to get it to cut perfect. But of course it was far from that. The deeper the depth of cut the more the shaper cut a taper front to back. Lots of areas needed work. I'll spare you the lengthy details, but it was the flat column ways that prompted the question about scraping in the correct incline and Catsparadise helped me understand how to figure it out. 
   I'm now scraped it very close to a 1/2 thousandth incline, but I'm going to have to put down trucite to make up for what I scraped away and the past owner "ground" away. I couldn't afford the Waylock epoxy so i plan to use Loctite 380 with the .062 trucite.  I'll take some pics and post my progress on this 
 To answer to your questions
1) The top clearance of the base was a problem. It was about .002 high on each corner when i printed it. Hard to know why, but the machine base had been worked on ( more like beat on). So I just wasn't confident that it was a good reference point any longer. That made me decide to use the vertical ways instead as my reference point.
2) The square is off, but I'm factoring that into the measurements.
3) Yes, I first scraped the flat ways on the ram using a surface plate to get them flat. Had a good reference surface on the top on the ram that allowed me to scrape the ways to be on the the same plane ( not sure thats the right term)


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 15, 2020)

I hate to write as I am wondering a few things while reading your last post.  I see you have it sitting on a piece of sheet steel? and bolted on one side.?   You need to set the base on  the factory feet and pull it down evenly.  Also why use a square that you know is off?   You can buy cheap Shars granite or blade squares.  How or where did you have the ram sitting when you scraped it and you say you used a plate to scrape it.  Please show us the plate you used.  You say you left it .0005 incline?  That sounds to small as the Schlesinger book says .0008" in 12".    I would not use Turcite on a shaper as it compresses and if your not familiar with the PSI needed to make it make it function properly I would use grade linen phenolic.  Also I on;y use the Loctite 380 super glue in emergencies as it drys so fast and when your applying wear strips you want time to do it right.   If cost is the issue, buy some J B weld 24 hour epoxy.  I use it in a pinch and it works good. 

It only hitting on the ends 2" makes me think the ram is not scraped in the correct alignment was not sitting on 30% or Airy 25%    The ram on the shaper Keith was scraping on twisted just sitting upside down on a work bench.  I showed them how to put the ram on 3 points,    It had a .008" twist in it I believe just setting on the table and was less then .0015 after we put it on 3 points.   Pic's show we have ram on a oak V block on one end  making 2 points and on the other end we use whats called the "bridge" where we run a board under the stroke adjustment slot and a triangle file under the wood block to get the single point.  We tried to support it a 30% or Airy points to keep the ram flat to it's own weight.  The other blocks were stabilizers and only pressed against the ram sides.

So many people think scraping is easy and it is if you have had someone show you how who knows what is going on.  Even using the Conneely book  isn't good enough if you don't use 3 points.   Hope I can help you fix your machine if it's not to late.


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## Janderso (Feb 15, 2020)

Richard,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.
I know many of us have taken your classes and follow your posts with interest.
Stay healthy and never stop teaching


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 15, 2020)

Thanks Jeff.  I had a good time teaching you while you scraped that angle block.  When "you got it" reaction was worth the wait.   I hate to come off as a old crab or know it all.  I just hate to see scraping shown by rookies and other rookies seeing it and believing.   Like I said, would you let someone do brain surgery on you after reading 1 book, watching some you tube shows taught by a guy who probably took a 1 week class ?   Rebuilding and scraping is a "Skilled trade"  and we figure it takes 4 years working under a Journeyman.   I encourage these rebuilding threads and I have ****** off a few people when I try to teach the right way inside their threads.   I do it for the betterment of the trade, not to **** someone off.    I see Pete has a home made copy of the scraper Keith Rucker copied that he got from me.   Pete I see your in New York.  I will be teaching a class in Oswego in May.  If your still working on it then.  I'm inviting you to attend the class, no charge,   Rich


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## eeler1 (Feb 15, 2020)

Pete, DO IT!!  Be open to an opportunity when it presents itself.  And be humble, Richard is indeed an old crab, but he knows more about machine rebuilding than you or I.

Ok, now my question.  

We usually use leveling to set up a machine and bolt it down in place.  I get the three points thing, relaxing the cast iron and taking out the twist.  Where I get confused is that at some point you are going to bolt that machine down to a bench or table or stand or the floor, at which time it probably won't be on 3 points anymore.  So if you scrape it in when it is resting on 3 points, isn't that geometry messed up when you set it in place?  Or are you creating new datum points for leveling in the same plane as the 3 points?


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 15, 2020)

I found this maintenance manual just now.  http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/3678.pdf

It says to support it on the leveling lugs on page 5.  I am assuming it has 4 and above the 4 is a hole you use to pull it down evenly.   So pulling it down with one will twist the base.   The Cinc. Shaper we scraped in FL had 6 - and we used wedge levelers under the lugs.   Jon, he could scrape it sitting on one lug tight and the base will no doubt be twisted, match fit the ram and scrape everything square with the lousy square.  Then unbolt it and move it, then try to align it back in the 1 lug position.  Impossible.  So before scraping anything you align it on the floor like the manual tells you too so after it is moved you can get it back to the same position.   

3 points is used in many machine bases with only 3 lugs and smaller perimeter lugs to keep the machine or surface plate from twisting.  We use 3 points on other parts to keep them twist free when sitting under their own weight.   You and everyone knows cast iron bends whenLeveling a lathe and aligning the bed is done all the time and we use leveling screws to twist (bend) the cast iron bed.   The ram is a noodle,even though we figure it is cast iron and won't bend.   You should have seen the eyes of Keith Rucker and John the shaper owner when we retested the ram after we set it on 3 points.  They couldn't believe their eyes.   I have been using 3 points as far as I can remember as it is an integral  part of machine rebuilding.   You must have been napping when I taught 3 points in the classes you took?   That's why I say using 3 points is also a "lost Art"


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## middle.road (Feb 15, 2020)

As in inspection and basic geometry, (3) points determine a plane.
Large surface plates are mounted on (3) points and if you look at images of cast iron plates there's usually (3) bosses on the bottom.


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## eeler1 (Feb 15, 2020)

I may have napped a bit, scraping wears us old guys out you know.  

Thats a good reference on shaper setup and operation, thanks for posting that.  You may see a shaper in Vacaville.


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## Janderso (Feb 16, 2020)

And he is an avid camper


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## Pete301 (Feb 16, 2020)

Richard King 2 said:


> I found this maintenance manual just now.  http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/3678.pdf
> 
> It says to support it on the leveling lugs on page 5.  I am assuming it has 4 and above the 4 is a hole you use to pull it down evenly.   So pulling it down with one will twist the base.   The Cinc. Shaper we scraped in FL had 6 - and we used wedge levelers under the lugs.   Jon, he could scrape it sitting on one lug tight and the base will no doubt be twisted, match fit the ram and scrape everything square with the lousy square.  Then unbolt it and move it, then try to align it back in the 1 lug position.  Impossible.  So before scraping anything you align it on the floor like the manual tells you too so after it is moved you can get it back to the same position.
> 
> 3 points is used in many machine bases with only 3 lugs and smaller perimeter lugs to keep the machine or surface plate from twisting.  We use 3 points on other parts to keep them twist free when sitting under their own weight.   You and everyone knows cast iron bends whenLeveling a lathe and aligning the bed is done all the time and we use leveling screws to twist (bend) the cast iron bed.   The ram is a noodle,even though we figure it is cast iron and won't bend.   You should have seen the eyes of Keith Rucker and John the shaper owner when we retested the ram after we set it on 3 points.  They couldn't believe their eyes.   I have been using 3 points as far as I can remember as it is an integral  part of machine rebuilding.   You must have been napping when I taught 3 points in the classes you took?   That's why I say using 3 points is also a "lost Art"





Richard King 2 said:


> I found this maintenance manual just now.  http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/3678.pdf
> 
> It says to support it on the leveling lugs on page 5.  I am assuming it has 4 and above the 4 is a hole you use to pull it down evenly.   So pulling it down with one will twist the base.   The Cinc. Shaper we scraped in FL had 6 - and we used wedge levelers under the lugs.   Jon, he could scrape it sitting on one lug tight and the base will no doubt be twisted, match fit the ram and scrape everything square with the lousy square.  Then unbolt it and move it, then try to align it back in the 1 lug position.  Impossible.  So before scraping anything you align it on the floor like the manual tells you too so after it is moved you can get it back to the same position.
> 
> 3 points is used in many machine bases with only 3 lugs and smaller perimeter lugs to keep the machine or surface plate from twisting.  We use 3 points on other parts to keep them twist free when sitting under their own weight.   You and everyone knows cast iron bends whenLeveling a lathe and aligning the bed is done all the time and we use leveling screws to twist (bend) the cast iron bed.   The ram is a noodle,even though we figure it is cast iron and won't bend.   You should have seen the eyes of Keith Rucker and John the shaper owner when we retested the ram after we set it on 3 points.  They couldn't believe their eyes.   I have been using 3 points as far as I can remember as it is an integral  part of machine rebuilding.   You must have been napping when I taught 3 points in the classes you took?   That's why I say using 3 points is also a "lost Art"


Hi Richard.  
Thank you for your very kind and very generous offer to attend the the Oswego class! My wife’s health keeps me close to home so I have to decline, but I’m so touched by your offer. 

They say you learn by your mistakes so maybe I’ve learned a little about how not to do things!
 I never even thought about how I had the base bolted down. I’ll have to bolt it down properly and recheck  and probably re-scrape. The base bolts to the table in 3 spots so I’m beginning to see the 3 points concept in practice. 
 So I should use linen grade phenolic instead of Trucite on the column flat ways. Another major mistake avoided thanks to you. 




	

		
			
		

		
	
About scraping the ram. Yeah, I just had it resting upside down on the work table while scraping, certainly not on 3 points. I’m studying your pics to learn how to duplicate that setup.

You asked about my surface plate so I included some photos. (Staged just to show what I used).


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## eeler1 (Feb 16, 2020)

Is that a Leonard grind-r-lap in the background of that last photo?

Family comes first, bummer that you can’t make the class.  Even a day of observation would be beneficial, if that’s possible.


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## Pete301 (Feb 16, 2020)

eeler1 said:


> Is that a Leonard grind-r-lap in the background of that last photo?
> 
> Family comes first, bummer that you can’t make the class.  Even a day of observation would be beneficial, if that’s possible.


I think it’s the same thing but marked “Cold-Grind”. A EBay deal, but had to make the diamond discs.


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## Janderso (Feb 16, 2020)

Pete301,
I’ve been working on my own diy slow speed diamond disc lapping machine for putting the 5 degrees on carbide for scraping.
The shot of the Cold Grind has the same mechanical pivot design I was creating on paper.
The pivot point needs to be at the disc face. When you try to do that, you need to have relief cuts in the table.
This design allows for that movement.
Great timing and validation of my get to lapping machine. Two thumbs up!


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Ahhhh now I see you have a granite plate, I assumed  you had a small plate and straight-edge.  Did I miss where you showed that?.   Jeff and Jon, Bob, John York, Rex, Ultra...what  would be an obvious questions  my students should ask about how the granite plate is sitting? 

They have to start thinking  a bit deeper now that they have taken the classes.     I would like this to be a learning curve here for everyone.   Pete if you could blue up the ram from the plate it would help too.


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## Janderso (Feb 19, 2020)

Three points. The wood wedge and the triangle file was ingenious


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 19, 2020)

That was not my idea, we were looking for something to "bridge under there and Lance saw it laying on the table and slid it under there....we all giggled.  It woorked and you should have seen John Terry's face when we checked the flats twisst with the King Way.... When I waslked out there they just had it sitting upside down on a scissors table on the top flat grove where you adjust the stroke.  Keith had a King-way he had bought off Ebay and checked for twist.  It was twisted .008" from one end to the other, approx. 6'.   Then I had them saw the  6 x 6 with a V to be the 2 points, Then  set the other end on the short 1 x 2 oak board under the top flat grove and checked it again.  It was off .004"   Then I said lets "bridge it" and thats when Lance found the file.   He snickered sort of making fun of me for saying it would get better.  John the owner is a raw rookie but a decent machinist and after we set it one the file bridge and checked it again, John was in shock that it was only .0015".    Jeff what is the answer I am fishing for about Pete's granite plate?


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## Janderso (Feb 19, 2020)

Airy points.??


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Lets say your there advising him on rebuilding his machine.  Be a detective.  Look at the set up on the other thread where he has the granite plate on a table or bennch and then he is testing the ram.   What is missing or what should check to see is there?


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## Janderso (Feb 19, 2020)

If you are referring to the pic where the ram is sitting on the granite on an oval table?( --3187E1.jpeg)
I'm not sure what he is doing there other than pivoting it to make sure it is hinging properly?
What's missing?


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## Janderso (Feb 19, 2020)

The pic where he has it on the granite plate and is using a test indicator with the block )9093FBE.jpeg he seems to have it sitting on the granite placed at the machined surface where the travel lock is.
It should be on 3 points and parallel to the granite. If he is testing to see if one side is out of plane with the other, I don't think this is the best way.


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 19, 2020)

I want to know if the surface plate is sitting on 3 points (rubber pads)....... Looks like it's sitting in the table to me and no pads


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## eeler1 (Feb 19, 2020)

I think I get the idea of the indicator, what you are trying to do.  But not sure what the indicator is really indicating there, seems it would depend on how true the top slot is (turned over).  If it were angled a bit one side to the other you'd scrape that angle in to the ways to compensate.  Maybe ought to use a small parallel or gage block to bridge surface variation on the ways, just measuring high and low spots as it is.

Pete, as Richard mentioned, put some bluing dye on the surface plate, see how the part hinges and how the blue gets wiped on to the ways.  I think that will tell you better than the indicator.


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## Pete301 (Feb 19, 2020)

Richard King 2 said:


> I want to know if the surface plate is sitting on 3 points (rubber pads)....... Looks like it's sitting in the table to me and no pads


Yes, I had the surface plate sitting directly on the table-not on 3 pads. Yikes, so much to know!
I'll put the surface plate on 3 pads. And then put the ram on 3 points (like your photos) to check if the two flat ram ways are on the same plane. But I see Jeff mentions that there is a better method to check if they are on the same plane.  What's is that better method?

Past photo of the ram ways printed from the surface plate.


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## eeler1 (Feb 19, 2020)

Pete, we don't really care if the slot is flat and parallel with anything, just the ways.  There should be some information here or on youtube about 'hinging' the part, it should swivel on each end about 30% in from the ends.  If it does, it's flat.  And if it's flat, they are on the same plane. 

Stefan Gottswinter talks about hinging in the beginning of this video;  




I'll be interested to see how you test the angled surface of the dovetail (male) to see if they are consistent to the flat ways. 

I'm impressed with your effort.  That will be a cool machine with a cool story when you are done.


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 19, 2020)

Now that I have my students teaching as I expect them to do, I am going to watch.   Jon & Jeff,  please talk about the checkerboard pattern and PPI and POP from the pic of the blued ram please explain how it should be blued all the way to the edge and where the 3 points under plate are placed and  using a feller gage to be sure blue goes to the edge,   I also suspect the ram bottom is side to side convex as in John Saunders parallel..

Pete I know you are learning here and I hope before you try to show members or if your doing You Tube, be sure you know what your doing before trying to teach others what your doing.   Hobby  The Vacaville class Jon coordinated.


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## Pete301 (Feb 20, 2020)

Richard King 2 said:


> Now that I have my students teaching as I expect them to do, I am going to watch.   Jon & Jeff,  please talk about the checkerboard pattern and PPI and POP from the pic of the blued ram please explain how it should be blued all the way to the edge and where the 3 points under plate are placed and  using a feller gage to be sure blue goes to the edge,   I also suspect the ram bottom is side to side convex as in John Saunders parallel..
> 
> Pete I know you are learning here and I hope before you try to show members or if your doing You Tube, be sure you know what your doing before trying to teach others what your doing.   Hobby  The Vacaville class Jon coordinated.



Thanks again Richard for all your help. I’ll take your teaching concern to heart and avoid ever doing that. Of course at this point,if I tried to teach scraping it would be the worlds’ shortest video!
Pete


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## Pete301 (Feb 20, 2020)

eeler1 said:


> Pete, we don't really care if the slot is flat and parallel with anything, just the ways.  There should be some information here or on youtube about 'hinging' the part, it should swivel on each end about 30% in from the ends.  If it does, it's flat.  And if it's flat, they are on the same plane.
> 
> Stefan Gottswinter talks about hinging in the beginning of this video;
> 
> ...



Thanks for the video. A lot to absorb there. 
I put 3 pads on the surface plate and below is a photo of the current ram coverage. Also a photo of the setup I used to measure the ram angled ways to check if they were parallel. 
  I’m confused about putting the ram on 3 points. Do I do that while both scraping and measuring? Or just measuring. It would seem likely that the ram would move around on me while I try to scrape it on the 3 points?


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## eeler1 (Feb 20, 2020)

Clever fixture for measuring the dovetail, Pete.  Blue up those surfaces too, so you get a sense of the plane and not just the single line.

I'll be offline for a few days.  I don't have the experience to teach, but have a grasp of the basics.  I hope Richard keeps chiming in here, especially on measurement of the geometric surfaces.

The 3 points usually involves two at one end and one at the other.  Here's a reference;



			https://demonstrations.wolfram.com/StaticEquilibriumForAPlateWithSupportAtThreePoints/
		


Set those points about 30% in from the ends and you get minimal sag of the piece.  Hard to do with an odd shape like you have.  Hence Keith Ruckers cradle with two points touching on each side of the casting at one end, and creating the single point under the bottom at the other.

That picture of the scraped bar that Richard posted is a pretty good representation of what you want the ways to look like.  You don't want 100% blue.  About 40-60% blue is the goal, kinda splotchy and evenly distributed.  The bare (low) spots will hold oil so it gets spread around as the ram cycles.

You get that pattern by alternating the direction of your scraping, 45* across the ways, then switching to the other 45* and scraping again.  Testing for hinge and flat and blue coverage after each or each couple of passes.  Looks like you have been doing a crosshatch, but perhaps a bit more aggressive would give a more definite pattern.

As RIchard mentioned, it's important to not roll the edges (which is easy to do) by lifting off the part as you scrape to the edge.  And test with the part on the surface plate, using a feeler gage to see if you have gaps around the edge.  You are going to scrape to the lowest point on the ways, might as well know where that is early on.

Only other suggestion I can offer right now is to watch some youtube videos by people who have a background in the process.  We mentioned Stefan Gottswinter and Keith Rucker.  There are others too.  Stick with conventional methods and you won't get too far off into the weeds.


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 20, 2020)

Just want you all to know Stefan and Keith and 30,000 other folks around the world are part of my student family.  They are teaching what i taught  them


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## Pete301 (Feb 21, 2020)

eeler1 said:


> Clever fixture for measuring the dovetail, Pete.  Blue up those surfaces too, so you get a sense of the plane and not just the single line.
> 
> I'll be offline for a few days.  I don't have the experience to teach, but have a grasp of the basics.  I hope Richard keeps chiming in here, especially on measurement of the geometric surfaces.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the advise and 3 point reference info. I’m making progress


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