# 9A renovation



## SE18

I've begun the process of renovation. I'll post some photos and video later but I'm at a sticking point--literally. I'm trying to remove the right-side lead screw support bracket by removing the 2 slotted screws on top of the lathe bed in order to slide the bracket off the lead screw.

I can't get the screws holding the bracket to budge, despite using a very large screwdriver. I'm beginning to strip one of the screw heads as a large chunk of metal came off. Should I get a propane torch and heat the area? Pour Coke on it?

Any solutions would help me substantially. 

I anticipate having a lot of other problems, as I'm not experienced in machinery. However, the machine looks really dirty and when I removed the oil plug below the carriage, no oil came out!! 

So I'm thinking that despite my anxiety, it's best to continue and ask questions here, as I think I can get all the help and advice I need right here.

One other quick question. I want to start cleaning the parts I remove and painting them. The enamel paint only comes in a quart and a gallon, nothing in between. Would a quart do 2 coats of paint for the lathe or do I need a gallon?

Thanks!

Dave V


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## pjf134

Dave,
  Clean off top of screws and spray with some kind of rust blaster, let it soak a little and use a impact driver and hammer or old screw driver with hammer, hit with hammer as you turn. If that don't work use a little heat on the lead screw bracket then try. One quart of rustolium was enough to do my lathe and metal bench top with some left over.
 Paul


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## jpoe

For the screws, I would soak with PB Blaster and give the screw a few surgical taps with a hammer while trying to loosen the screw.  I would repeat this process several times over a 24 hour period until it hopefully breaks free.

For the paint, I just finished painting a Logan with a cheapie HF gun and I purchased a gallon of enamel.  This was my first time painting anything with a gun so I am sure that I wasted quite a bit of paint.  That being said, I have enough paint left over that I will probably paint every piece of machinery or exposed metal in my shop with the left over paint.  

I hope this helps.  I am very new to this type of thing, so I would take anything I say with a grain of salt.  I have run into several stuck bolts over the last few years and there seems to be three common themes:  1.) Penetrating oil and impact;    2.) Heat; and 3.) Drill out the stuck fastner ( preferably L handed twist drills ).  I would be very nervous using heat around the ways, but then again, the mass of the lathe may be able to absorb and distribute the heat with ease.


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## SE18

thanks, all, I applied oil, heat and with a bit of energy they turned. Feeling of accomplishment! (Incidentally, I first tried a HF heat gun--the one with the warning not to dry your hair with LOL; it didn't work, so the propane torch came out and that did the trick)

Here's a quick video of the lathe in operation. If I can't get it back together after renovating it, at least I'll have this video to prove it turns LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgda49LKx5U

Forgot to mention, leveling the lathe and fortifying the bench took some time and effort. I found a truck load of 2x4s in a construction dumpster; just had to remove the nails. The steel bench now is fortified with the 2x4s and won't budge

I'm going to provide detailed and frequent updates to this, hoping it will help some other idiot abroad like myself LOL


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## SE18

k,

a few more updates; here's some stills of the bench fortification

also, 2 shots of removing the chuck. Some idiot dumber than me must have dropped the chuck a bunch of times on the ways b/c I see a ****load of marks right under the chuck.

per recommendation of the Ilion book: http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Guide_to_Renovating_the_South_Bend_Lat.html?id=Q-P3tgAACAAJ

I heeded the warning NEVER use the back gear lock to disengage the chuck. Instead, use a strap wrench on the pulley cone and insert a hex rod into the chuck and turn with wrench.

last night I got a Husky strap wrench from Home Depot. I then cut in half a Harbor Freight 7' long steel digger (I have an extra one) and used this to turn with wrench; see photos


It is likely I'll purchase a serpentine belt from Autozone or somewhere as the leather belt is 1.25 inches wide, about 1/8" too wide to fit on the smallest pulley cone (it fits on the others OK


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## SE18

thanks, Professor, I was posting when you were.

BTW, I'm taking a lot of photos of parts as I dissassemble them. Hopefully that will help me later, as it's always easier removing stuff than putting it back. LOL


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## jpoe

I am hoping to get my restored Logan back together today, and the pictures have been a huge help.  If you have not done so already, there is a seller on ebay who has the rebuild kits.  The kits have a detailed dissassembly / assembly booklet and all of the replacement felts.  There is one screw on the apron that is left hand thread that is commonly broke by the novice, but I don't recall which one off the top of my head.


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## SE18

jpoe said:


> I am hoping to get my restored Logan back together today, and the pictures have been a huge help.  If you have not done so already, there is a seller on ebay who has the rebuild kits.  The kits have a detailed dissassembly / assembly booklet and all of the replacement felts.  There is one screw on the apron that is left hand thread that is commonly broke by the novice, but I don't recall which one off the top of my head.



The star wheel screw is left hand thread and is commonly damaged from turning the normal but wrong way. I destroyed the nut on my chop saw, btw, turning it counterclockwise to get the nut off to replace the blade when it was left hand thread. You'd think they'd put a warning label or something on the machine. There are plenty of other warnings, like don't put your hand in the blade when it's spinning and don't operate when drinking, etc LOL

LOL, I'm at a sticking point again. I think we both have the rebuild kit you mentioned with the replacement consumables (nonedible consumables that is). 

Here's where I'm stuck and need advice so I don't completely destroy the reverse gear assembly

So I removed the square nut and the reversing gear assembly came out in a unit. That part was fine.

Then, I removed the 11/16" retaining nut, holding the top gear and took off that and the gear. So far so good.

Then, I removed the two retaining nuts on the bracket body (used a vice to hold the frame and stuck a block of wood under the teeth so they wouldn't be damaged and then turned them off with a crescent wrench. I couldn't use a box wrench b/c apparently, those retaining nuts are a weird size, 19/32 I believe. LOL.

So far, so good.

Now, I need to remove the main shaft and the other two shafts to remove the 3 gears remaining on the assembly. How?

The book says to press the shafts off with an arbor. Have have a shop press so I'm going to use that.

However, the book doesn't say which way to press them off, from the front (where the gears are located) or from the back. Also, I probably need to use a piece of round stock to push the shafts all the way through.

Any advice will help!!!!!!!! I'm not going any further until I hear back. LOL

Here's some photos


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## SE18

well, not having heard back yet, I'm assuming the 3 gear shafts in the reversing assembly can be pressed out in either direction. Otherwise, the book would have stated which direction. So perhaps later tonight or tomorrow I'll give it a go.

One quick test I did was to check if the ways are worn near the headstock. The book recommends tightening the square carriage locking bolt lightly by hand until it just touches the underside of the bed. Note the position of the bolt's head. Next, run the carriage all the way left to the chuck (where any wear would occur) and try to turn the screw down again by hand.

Keep track of how far the bolt turned. Most bolts are 5/16-18 thread so 1/4 turn will indicate about .014" of wear between this end of the bed and the far right end. This is the most it should turn, any more and you've got a swayback bed.

So I did the test and when I pulled the carriage up to the headstock to turn by hand again, it barely moved, perhaps 1/12 of a turn. Therefore, this indicates a fairly level bed that was maintained well. I was pretty happy after the test as a swayback would really suck.


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## SE18

One nagging concern I have is the electrical system. Sure everything works fine, but the cords look pretty ragged and inside the box that has the forward-neutral-reverse power levers, the wires look really old. Here's some photos of the outside cords.

Unfortunately, the Guide to Renovation by Ilion (2011 copyright) does not appear to mention the wire system, capacitor, motor at all, so I'm left wondering...


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## 12bolts

SE18 said:


> Now, I need to remove the main shaft and the other two shafts to remove the 3 gears remaining on the assembly.



Hi David,
Good to see you bit the bullet and were'nt put off by the perceived complexities.
When I disassembled my tumbler I just used a soft hammer and smacked the studs out. Loosened the nuts and then tapped away on them. I only cradled the assy in my hand so there was no real force required. Took a few hits but they came out easy enough. I didnt remove the main shaft from the assy as I figured there was no need.

Cheers Phil


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## 12bolts

SE18 said:


> The book recommends tightening the square carriage locking bolt lightly by hand until it just touches the underside of the bed.



Dave,
a better way is to bring the carriage up to near the chuck, (where most wear occurs), and tighten the carriage lock until it has some heavy drag whilst cranking the traverse. Now leaving the bolt where is is, run the carriage towards the tailstock. As you move away from the usually worn section of bed the carriage should become more difficult to move. This will give a better indication of the amount of wear.

Cheers Phil


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## Hawkeye

I would imagine that the book doesn't mention the electrical system because there may be many different configurations, which may also have changed several times during the life of the machine.

You're right in recognizing the need to replace that wiring. It's at end-of-life. Since the lathe runs properly, identify and document both ends of each wire before you disconnect any of them. If you do it in table form, you can put in an extra column where you can write in the wire colour for the new cable as you go. Then you'll have a record to refer to. The new cables may not have the same colours available as in the old ones. Just make sure you reserve the green or yellow/green wire for the ground.


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## SE18

thanks for the tips and encouragement!!! I'm using Adobe After Effects at work so when I'm finally done with the rebuild I'll try and hook you guys up with a video tutorial, not for you but for beginners.

It's back to work today, haven't done anything yet as I'm involved in some honey-do projects, if you know what I mean.

The main shaft on the reverse assembly is supposed to house a long keyway into which a strip of Type 3 felt is supposed to be inserted so I'll try and pop them out today.

I'll reserve electrical for last. The wiring is so old you can smell the decay from the insulation.

Anyway, I'm very glad so far that I'm doing the rebuild. At the worst, I break something and get a replacement. After all it's for hobby use anyway, not livelihood, so why rush it. I'm gaining a better appreciation and understanding for the workings and craftsmanship and after removing some parts and seeing the caked on crude and seeing no oil coming out of the carriage underside plug, I guess the rebuild was past due. 

For instance, look at the worn washer on this screw gear.

Lastly, do you guys remove the threading chart before painting and then replace it? Mine looks pretty worn (see photo)? Looks like some work involved in removing it, but that's for later. Oh, sorry, there's some sort of gun tool over the plate I was using to turn the square bolt that holds the gear bracket in place during the documentation phase.

Also, another question. Should the motor be dissassembled for cleaning? I understand there are parts that might need cleaning and perhaps repacking? The book didn't get into this, maybe b/c there's so many types of motors. Mine's 1/2HP, 1,750 RPM, the original GE


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## SE18

Success. I pressed off all 3 shafts on the reverse gear assembly. The largest shaft definitely needed the 6-ton press as it seemed comfortable where it was and wasn't in any hurry to move.

Wife doesn't want me to paint the unit,so instead, I'm thoroughly degreasing every part with brakleen and some other solvents that are not supposed to harm enamel. I'm still going to purchase a serpentine belt and when that goes bad in 5-10 years, I'll do another rebuild and then consider paint, as by then I'll be in my mid-60s and if I go bad, the family will have something nice to sell, although I'm in pretty good shape right now, doing 20 pullups.

I'm going to also do some hunting online to get tips for wiring and motor maintenance.


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## pjf134

I would remove the thread chart just in case you get some degreaser on it and eats away the paint. I used electrolysis with a battery charger and some washing soda and that ate the paint and rust off my gear box.
 Paul


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## 12bolts

Good idea to remove the printed plate.
You may be able to remove those retaining pins by gripping the head and unscrewing them as you pull on them. If not, file/grind the heads and after removing the plate you can drill them out. New drive pins are easily sourced. http://www.spirol.com/company/products/prod_d.php?ID=53

Cheers Phil


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## SE18

thanks fellows for the tips!

Here's photos from yesterday of the press in operation. The press rod is positioned over the main shaft and is in the preparatory stage of being pressed. Steel plates were added on the left side so the press can be made in a vertical direction (so as to avoid skewing it at a diagonal direction). Next photo shows the main shaft and 2 smaller gears out. The shafts in the 2 smaller gears come out by hand.

I sprayed the assembly with brakeclean and am scrubbing with a brass wire brush. Once the gunk comes free how do you remove it? Do you perhaps have 2 baths, one for degreasing and another bath for rinsing?


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## 12bolts

Dave,
That main shaft really shouldnt be that tight in there as to need the press. The gear is a neat fit on the end of the shaft and the key makes it nice and firm. The shaft itself should be free to revolve in the tumbler assembly. I would be looking for burrs and nicks on the shaft, or maybe a bent/damaged key.
When cleaning mine I mostly just use turps and elbow grease. Little screwdrivers and sharpened bits of wire to poke down holes and scrape gunk out. Wet and dry emery to polish things. Soak overnight to soften hard grunge.

Cheers Phil


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## Tony Wells

Those plates are usually held in place by what are called "drive rivets" or U-drive screws(or rivets). Hard to get out if they are installed properly. Some come out if you cut a slot and back them out like a normal screw. Some can be driven out from the back of that they are installed in. They are hardened, so are tough to drill. Slow speed, oil....and time might get them to collapse, or you could probably buy the next size up if needed.


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## pjf134

The gear box plate was just regular rivets on mine, do not know if original or not. I just drilled them out and used self taping screws. I think I used 1/8" drill bit and they were out quick. My lathe is a 1968 model and seen little use before I got it, hardly any wear on gears ect. so I assume the rivets are from the factory. If you want to get fancy there is a guy that makes repo plates just like new ones if you are going for pretty or just usable like me.
 Paul


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## SE18

Hi all and thanks for advice. I've decided at this point to clean everything and make it functional vice pretty, so I probably won't paint or need to remove stuff that doesn't need to be removed. 

I'm currently looking around the web for more info on GE motors from that period and wiring. My nextdoor neighbor said asbestos was used in wiring installation and he said to be careful about getting it on me.

I haven't yet got to the bronze bushings and I'm hoping that when I do, they are still intact and fitting properly. Cost for next sleeves on eBay (same seller as the book), goes for around $70 which is pretty pricey IMO. I just spent $30 on a 1/8 pin spanner wrench so I'm trying to keep cost down if at all possible.

Measured my leather belt and it's 55 inches and about 1.25" wide. I'm going to the auto store to get a serpentine one. IMO, anything from 53 to 55 would work as the turnbuckle adjustment is out pretty far and a shorter one might even be better. The leather belt I'm using now is definitely too wide.

Been cold in the garage so haven't done anything yet except reading up on lathe stuff.

For instance, I visited 2 websites and discovered my lathe was built on 30Dec1942. On that day, fighting was taking place on Guadalcanal, Alutian islands and I'm Dreaming of a white christmas was popular. So the lathe is becoming something of a heirloom. It must have had quite a history!

Serial # South Bend

131187, 12/30/1942, 9" x 3-1/2', Workshop Model A, Catalog No. 644-Z, 12-speed, HMD bench lathe,  1/2 HP; 1725 RPM, 115V/1PH/60CY, 
From:  http://www.wswells.com/serial_number.html

Catalog
644 9" Model A, 12-Speed, HMD bench lathe NAR

From: http://www.southbendlathe.com/products/catalognumbers/catalognum-09sncode


NAR means
N - 9”
A - Quick Change Gear (QCG), Friction Feed Apron,
Overhead Countershaft Drive (CS)
R - Regular Spindle Hole,
Standard Swing


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## SE18

Busy cleaning dirty gears (first photo) all weekend and replacing felts. Notice reassembled (last photo), very clean but not squeaky clean. I discovered it helps to have a lot of Q-tips during cleaning. Pipe cleaner would come in handy as well. I went to walmart and picked up a rifle cleaning kit (bore brush, different cleaning tips and stuff). Reminded me of my time in Marine Corps back in 70s. LOL The rifle cleaning kit definitely helped me get into passageways of the lathe.

Question on wicks. Do they operate by osmosis? IOW, if there are 2 felts perpendicular to each other, do they need to touch each other to cause the oil to flow? Just curious.

So, the gear train is completed!

Stupid question time.

The square retaining bolt on the reversing gear assembly. If I want to put the lathe in reverse, it looks like I need to loosen that bolt in order to move the handle on that assembly and then tighten it. Correct? (I've turned the lathe on but never actually used it)

2nd question.

I was going to do the second part of the dissassembly, which is to remove the gearbox and feed screws. However, I ran into a similar problem I had earlier. This time, the 3 screws holding the gearbox to the bed won't turn. As you recall, I was able to get other screws to turn using my propane torch. This time it didn't work. I put brake fluid on the heads but that didn't work either. So, it's off to the store to buy PB Blaster and also try the technique of hammer and screwdriver. The problem with an impact wrench (which I don't have) is that clearance to that area is limited by the headstock cover. So I'm thinking I might have to remove some stuff from the headstock to get at that area if other methods of screw removal fail. 

3rd question.

The book I have divides the lathe into 4 parts 1 Gear train & gearbox; 2 Apron, saddle & compound; 3 headstock and back gear; 4 horizontal drive unit

When I'm done with #1 (geartrain and gearbox), can I reassemble it or will I need to remove it later when I get to the headstock and backgear?

BTW, this project will take a lot longer than I anticipated. I found that when I get frustrated for example with the screws, it helps to take a few days off and do something else and come back with a clear head.

Thanks, btw, for all assistance.

Dave


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## pjf134

Dave,
  On your reverse gear that nut might be for tightening direction selection, but not sure since mine has a similar setup like the gear box tumbler with 3 holes to pick from (see pic). I would try it once the lathe is together and running to figure it out. The wicks and felts act like a sponge and transfer oil to where it is needed, if there are 2 piece felts there should be 2 oilers to supply them, if not they should touch. Put the required oil on dry felts as you put the parts together so the lathe is not running dry at start up. I hope this helps.
 Paul


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## Redirish

Yes, the square headed bolt is for locking the tumbler in position. I used mine for years that way then made a spring plunger type for it, drilled three holes in the headstock casting ( like the 10K ), so I can move it into neutral without fooling with the bolt.


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## SE18

thanks, guys, big help; learning something every day!

Here's a diagram I spun up. When the green square nut is loosened, the handle to the right can move, thereby engaging the blue or red gear with the yellow gear. I think the blue and red are called twin gears. Unsure what the yellow one is called.

Anyway, the question is, during normal operation, should the blue and red gears be in neutral (not engaged with the yellow)? What operation takes place when red engages yellow? Blue to yellow?

Thanks!!!

btw, I'm still trying to work the screws loose holding the gearbox. This time I used a tool you hit with a hammer to turn the screws. No joy. I think they're beginning to strip. So, I purchased a craftsmen set of screw outs to use with a drill in reverse, slow speed. I may try these tonight but I'm sort of worried about damaging the ways or bed around the screw hole. Also, I don't know how easy it is to replace those screws; if they sell that size at Home Depot. It's a bit frustrating I can't proceed any further with those pesky screws in the way (pun intended)


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## SE18

Thanks. Big help. I should have used the drag link socket to begin with (didn't even know about these). I already broke a normal flat screw socket on that screw. I think the term getting screwed came from trying to unfasten these.

Appreciate the explanation on that selector!


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## SE18

EDIT: I just ordered the set, hopefully I didn't damage the slot too much and it will work



Just called Autozone, tru value, HD and Lowes and none of them carry these, much less know what they are. So...

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...921x00003a&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=00934299000

I'm not sure which size I need b/c my lathe is at home and I'm at work, but if I get a set like this, I might be able to use them if I run into more of these type screws in the lathe.

Does this look like what I need?

Thanks!


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## Hawkeye

Ready for an operational twist? All the directions that 1200 outlined are reversed when you are using the power crossfeed. Your leadscrew lever in the 'Up" position will back the tool away from the work, while the down position will feed the tool toward the work.

I used to wonder why they made it backwards, but if you think about it, it's a great idea. If you happen to set the lever on the carriage to the wrong position (carriage instead of crossfeed, or vice versa), the tool will move away from your work instead of destroying it.

This is how it works on my Hercus AR. I assume Southbend did it that way first. There are a few changes Hercus made in the design that are better, but I think the basic pieces are the same.


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## SE18

thanks all. About 2 more days and the drag link sockets will arrive. Guys at the auto store never heard of them and scratching their heads. LOL

I ought to get the bit i need with these and using a long 1/2" socket wrench will give me some torque

BTW, hate to ask all these niggling questions but in the attached photo I use a green arrow to a gear that seems to be getting a free ride and not doing anything. What is its function? In the How to Run a lathe drawing, that little gear is riding on the gear to the left of where mine is like it switched places.


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## Topos

*Timken Bearings CLeaning & Restoration*



SE18 said:


> I've begun the process of renovation. I'll post some photos and video later but I'm at a sticking point--literally. I'm trying to remove the right-side lead screw support bracket by removing the 2 slotted screws on top of the lathe bed in order to slide the bracket off the lead screw.
> 
> I can't get the screws holding the bracket to budge, despite using a very large screwdriver. I'm beginning to strip one of the screw heads as a large chunk of metal came off. Should I get a propane torch and heat the area? Pour Coke on it?
> 
> Any solutions would help me substantially.
> 
> I anticipate having a lot of other problems, as I'm not experienced in machinery. However, the machine looks really dirty and when I removed the oil plug below the carriage, no oil came out!!
> 
> So I'm thinking that despite my anxiety, it's best to continue and ask questions here, as I think I can get all the help and advice I need right here.
> 
> One other quick question. I want to start cleaning the parts I remove and painting them. The enamel paint only comes in a quart and a gallon, nothing in between. Would a quart do 2 coats of paint for the lathe or do I need a gallon?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dave V



Happily following your restorative project on a great piece of American Iron.

As I am in the process of restoring an Atlas 618 lathe with the best of old
parts, I am particularly interested in whether you will be cleaning and lubing
the Timken Bearings.

I started with an NOS lathe bed. The spindles I got on eBay. Using brass and a rubber
mallet I safely have driven out the  two bearings. 

It is amazing the chips one finds in the racers. Lots of cleaner, .016 steel pick, and tweezers
removes copper and aluminum micro chips.

Prior to reassembly, I seek the advice of the experienced on this site on how to oil/repack the
bearings. The Timken information ranges from green bicycle bearing grease to engine oil -10/30.

Like a proctoscopic exam, one should not attempt it one's self, even if you have a mini-cam.  

This advice and guidance will be handy to all Atlas restorers.

Thanks.

p.s. For the housing I fashioned a scraper from an old chisel and surprisingly it is getting rid of all
the multi-layer-hacker paint, all the way down to the bare metal. Soon I shall be priming and then
matching the original gray.  Any painting advice, also?


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## SE18

Topos,

I read a bit further in my Ilion "Guide to Renovating SBL, A,B,C and 10K" (I always read and reread sections before attempting anything later on) and I'm pretty sure the SBL9A doesn't have thrust bearings (Timken style) on the spindle. That honor goes to the 10K, which was build, I think beginning around 1950 (although I could be mistaken on all counts). From what I read, the bearings used in the A,B and C are bronze, although during the war I think cast iron was used. Again, I'm no expert, just from what I read thus far.

I'm doing the renovating without painting. I plan to do a restoration once very 10 years and will consider paint next time. I've also got to restore all the wiring and possible clean the motor (GE A-C, model 5KC63AC494 1/2HP 115V 7.5A 1-phase, 1725 rpm and a reversing controller by Furnas, style RSB4). I'm collecting all the info I can on that, as there are a lot of cautions, such as putting too much lubrication in the motor, etc.

Regarding the drag link socket, I believe the fit will be better than the screwdriver I was using and very small ratchet with the driver tip that broke off. These drag link sockets from Sears look much more substantial and able to take torque without shattering. At least they appear to be.

Incidentally, I'll be doing a series of videos to try and help others and hopefully return the favors of all the help I'm getting. I'm going to Korea Apr1 to 15 to see my inlaws so this thread will be dormant for a while at that time.


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## Redirish

I just finished cleaning and repainting my SB 9A, used a small Snap-On drag link socket on the troublesome screws you mentioned. I found that a firm, steady pull on the ratchet handle did the trick. Regarding the spindle bearings, during WWII South Bend simply bored the headstock to size and used no other bearings, at least on the 9", don't know about the larger sizes. Mine is a 1946, and the spindle runs on cast iron. As for that 40 tooth gear you mentioned, that is just a storage place for it, if you will look at the threading chart you will see that for the coarser threads the 40 is used in place of the 20 on the stud. Regarding the Timken bearings on the Atlas, when I had one I found that packing the bearings with #2 multi-purpose grease worked much better than using oil, including reducing vibration. Hope this helps.)


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## SE18

Hi all, had successes this weekend with gearbox except for one very troubling problem---taper pin on screw gear shaft collar. I tried driving it out with a harbor freight punch (1st photo), which broke, the next punch I used was a PTD HS USA one (2nd photo) and that didn't break but with all the force I was using, i was afraid I'd break the shaft. I applied propane torch and did the usual, then tried to drill it out. More problems. Red arrow shows the drill bit wandered out and now it appears impossible to remove the collar from the shaft. Any help much appreciated!

I've got nearly a dozen more taper pins to remove and I'm really dreading it! I'm thinking of replacing them with set screws.


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## 12bolts

Hi Dave,
Following this thread with interest. Regarding your gear that is only in it for the free ride, you have change gears there that need to be swapped out for "other" change gears for different feed/screw cutting rates. That gear you have highlighted is probaly just backed onto another gear as a compound, but is not being used as such in this particualar application. The previous user just needed one half of the gear to equate his situation.
As for the set screws. Dont! They are not a suitable substitute for the applications where tapered pins are used!
Whilst it seems that corrosion has been a problem on your machine given the trouble you have had with screws, you need to persevere with penetrating oils, heat and persuasion. Are you sure you are getting the taper from the correct direction. One of the plusses for taper pins is that once they have moved, even just a tiny bit, is that they should be loose in their hole.

Cheers Phil


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## SE18

Thanks, Phil, there's a possibility I may have been pounding the wrong side. I carefully measured both ends with calipers and the small end is the end I pounded away at, which I thought to be correct. This morning, however, I did some internet searching and found that the small end might have actually been disguised. Let me explain. The big end was protruding and looked like a half-dome. I'm thinking now that I should have filed that half dome off to get the true radius of the taper. Now I know but it's too late to pound it out as I've already made a drill hole on each side, and as I mentioned, the drill went askew (even though it was done in a drill press). I'm thinking more drilling could cause the shaft to fail? Fortunately, nothing is connected at that end.

I would simply clean it as is assembled and not try to dissassemble it. However, one of those pesky wick passageways is hiding behind the gears and I really need to get to it to clean it out. Some of the wicks btw were missing and others were so badly corroded they looked like lumps of grease.

Also, the shaft still will not budge even after drilling, probably b/c the drill wandered sideways and a portion of the taper is still stuck in there. There's now no way to remove the residual part.

----

on the other topic, there's no longer a taper hole since I drilled it out, so the only option now is a set screw, unless I'm missing something. Something is inherently wrong with the design of using a taper pin on a shaft and then having to pound it out. The shaft definitely must be absorbing some of the shock from hammering and that can't be good.

---------

did a lot of internet searches and it seems I botched this more than anyone ever has possibly done


----------



## Topos

*Now On To Spindle's Timken Bearings*

By methods of advanced cowardliness and observation I successfully removed the
the 618 Timken bearings by prying off the protective covers with a dental pick, then
using a brass bar of same diameter and rubber mallet easing out the bearings.

It was no surprise that the bearings had a rough sound as I rotated them.
Proceeded to wash, blast and repeat with WD-40 and Teflon spray until they
moved freer but still hit high spots.

Using finest feeler gauge I probed racer while rotating. Surprise ... pieces of metal
shavings, including some copper showed their shining faces. Surgical tweezers and some hand-stands later
removed the pesky pieces resulting in the bearings finally running effortlessly and noiselessly. 

Following Atlas data sheet I soaked and rolled them in Castrol 10/30 GTX.
Finally all was as it should be. I did use 10,000 grit Nagura Stone polishing paper with oil under finger pressure
to burnish the track of the outer racers. Even I know not to use a Dremel.  

Having two extra spindles [ I do believe in back up! ] I performed the same operations on
the remaining three Timkens. Fully restored. 

As the spindle on my operational Atlas 618 rolls quietly and noiselessly I will wait until 
I need to change the belt to check out those bearings.

In summary, using the springy spark plug feeler gauges to insert between the rollers
and rotating was the critical part in the clean up.

For myself, I believe that one must be a demented miniaturist to enjoy lathe restoration but
it surely beats lying under a 1970 280SL removing and reinstalling the oil filter
with a 17mm ratcheting box wrench.   

Thanks, guys, for your inspiring work.


----------



## SE18

Glad you got that done. I did discover that the 9A has a thrust bearing at the end of the spindle shaft in head stock, so I misspoke earlier, thinking it was only in the 10K

------

thanks 1200 for the encouragement. I might need to figure out taper pin sizes and where to get taper drills. 

-------

Despite my frustration at taper pins and possibly screwing up the screw gear shaft, I promised I'd let you know the good news.

First off, I managed to remove the gearbox. The drag link sockets I ordered were all too wide for the slotted screw, as you can see in the photo; this is the smallest of the set. So I jury rigged my own device using an old square shanked screwdriver. I filed down the end until it was flat and held it and the bolt up to the light and kept filing until no light shown thru the bolt (the bolts I had removed from the tailstock side, which are same type). Then attached a large crescent wrench to the square screwdriver shank and put a lot of down pressure on the screwdriver and managed to turn all 3. I then purchased socket hd cap screws, which I plan to use to replace every slotted screw I ever see in my life.

---------------------

Except for the screw gear shaft and gears, which are still not removed, I did manage to remove everything else from the gearbox.

In 1 of the photos you can see how crud built up. Some of that crud in the gears couldn't be removed with wire brush so you can see I used a 12 gauge copper wire to remove the crud. 

--------------------

It was a bit tough removing the lead screw from the gearbox. in the photo, you can see I used a 7/8 box wrench and crescent wrench to remove the outside nut. However, when removing the inside nut, the gears spin when you try to turn the nut and when you hold the gears with gloved hands they still spin. So I stuck a brass rod in the gears to jam them and removed the inside nut that way. I'm not sure if what I did is considered proper or not.

---------

As you can see, my shop press came in handy removing tumbler gears.

---------

As for the gear tree on central shaft, that taper pin came out easily and you can see I kept them in order on a wire for cleaning

----

tonight I'll try to deal with that taper pin I mentioned about an hour ago. Hope I don't destroy the shaft and collar. You probably can't just go to Ace hardware and pick up new ones LOL


----------



## jpoe

I had to use an air hammer on some of my  pinss.


----------



## SE18

jpoe said:


> I had to use an air hammer on some of my  pinss.



LOL, well not really but still...

1200:

thanks on the handmade tool comment. I actually made a couple other handmade tools including this wood dowel to drive out a couple of shafts on the gearbox. I didn't have brass or aluminum in that size and the wood worked well enough.

The taper pin on the gear tree, as I mentioned, went really smoothly. I used a caliper. Never before used it and don't know how to read it, but I looked at the gauge in metal and the dial and measured one end of taper as 2.01 and the other 1.70. Don't know if that's inches or millimeters or whatever.

Hoisting the lead screw was a time for victory. Hopefully I didn't permanently bend the leadscrew when I took the 3 screws out holding gearbox to the bed. I placed wood under it but it rolled back and the leadscrew sagged.. 

Now, if only I can get the screw gear shaft out life will be sweet (probably at least until I get to the apron, headstock and motor, the dreaded motor and wiring).

Did I mention the gears were full of crud? Photo...


----------



## SE18

btw, the book mentions an oil cap on the gearbox chassis. Says there's "a pressed in plug on the right side of the casting. To thoroughly clean the gallery and to provide future access...drill out this plug, thread hole with 5/16"-18 tap and install 5/16"x1/4" set screw...teflon tape on threads to prevent leaks"

Has anyone tried to do this? Is it worthwhile doing this? I can't even find the pressed in plug on mine; must be I need to scrape away paint.


----------



## 12bolts

SE18 said:


> I used a caliper. Never before used it and don't know how to read it



Dave,
Dial calipers are pretty simple. Yours are imperial.
On the main body, (non sliding part) of your calipers is the inch scale. You will see that each inch is divided into 10 smaller segments, numbered from 1-9, and repeating the number order each time you pass a major inch.
Open the calipers, wipe the inside faces of the 2 jaws that contact each other when they are closed, and then close them together.
Now loosen the small knurled screw at the bottom of the dial and rotate the dial case until the pointer is on zero. Your dial indicates in 0.001" (or each tiny division on the dial is 1 thou). If you use the thumbwheel located to the lower right of the dial and roll it counter clockwise, (it is a friction drive so you need to press up with your thumb as you do), you will see the pointer rotate clockwise. One full rotation of the pointer is 100 'thou or 1 tenth of an inch. If you look now at the chamfered front edge of the sliding jaw you will see that it is indicating on the 1st division. These numbered divisions keep track of how many times the pointer has gone around. When you get to 1" the pointer will have gone round 10 times.
You did read it almost correctly. The measeurements you have taken are 0.170" or (170 thou) and 0.201" (or 201 thou).
The knurled thumbscrew at the top back on the sliding part is tightened to lock the caliper when you have taken a measurement and dont want it to move. Dont overtighten it and leave it loose when storing the calipers.
The spiky pieces that slide past each other on the top side of the caliper are for measuring inside dimensions.
The long tail that slides out the back end of the caliper is used for measuring the depth of holes and such, so try not to damage that either.
You may have found a small piece of shaped flat brass in the case with the calipers. This is used to slip the pointer pinion if the dial is out of whack. ie pointer is not at 12 o'clock when jaws are closed.

Cheers Phil


----------



## pjf134

SE18,
  On my 9A gear box the taper pin part sticking out is the big end and should be hit from the other end. The tumbler arms are right and left, so don't mix them up, I kept mine on right and left side so they would be right and still got them switched around. When I got my lathe my gear box was stuck shut and would not turn due to dried oil on shafts and the taper pins were facing the wrong way inside the box. The only thing that worked was a small ceramic heater on the gears for a little while until I could turn the gears by hand and then knocked out the taper pins. Three or four hands would make it easier to get the gear box back together, as it is a little tight in there while trying to hold everything together and keeping it lined up.
 Paul


----------



## SE18

Hi pjf134,

Nice looking gearbox. Stupid question time. I see you painted yours (and nice job, btw). For those not painting their lathe and have large areas where the paint has come off, will this make the metal more susceptible to rust or should one put a light coat of oil on this metal (similar to seasoning a cast iron pot)? The only problem is it might attract more dust unless you use a dust cover.

Is my logic on this tracking?



On your gear shaft, the taper pin is not completely round so it might have gotten whacked in the past.

-----

OK, 10-4, your tip on left and right tumbler arms, INVALUABLE! Didn’t know about this. Fortunately, I’ve taken photos (see attached) of the entire process and by the paint signature, I can see which will be right and left during assembly. I’m fairly certain the book I’m reading doesn’t mention not mixing them up (it only states not to confuse the gears, but I think the gears are interchangeable right and left? Come to think of it, after looking at the photos, it appears that the shape of the R and L tumblers are different? See how it pays to take photos during the entire process!!!

It also helps, I've found, to have different buckets. For example, in one bucket is the reverse assembly and in another bucket is the gearbox assembly. I've been doing some internet surfing and am finding out that a lot of people who buy used lathes see broken teeth on gears. I was curious what causes these teeth to break. Perhaps incorrect assembly or not putting a gear lever down all the way (not properly engaging gears), or perhaps locking the gears and removing the chuck, which stresses the gears? Anyway, it would be good to know to avoid this from happening to me!



I’ll try my hand again at removing that stuck taper pin sometime this week or weekend, but will make a trip to hardware to get some taper pins and taper drills. Might need, sure I need, to increase taper pin diameter if I ever get that taper pin removed! I still think set screws would work better but you’all have advised against it so I’d rather listen to experience than go it alone.


I did sometimes wish I had a few extra hands. My wife, btw, was furious at how dirty my hands got and told me to wear latex gloves next time, which is kinda girlish, LOL


Small ceramic heater? I think you lost me there.


Oh, btw, I'm going to pick up some pipe cleaners. If I ever get this gear box dissassembled, I can see where they'd come in handy for cleaning out those hidden oil passages. Did I mention the gearbox resembles an object filled with wormholes.


Hi Phil,

Thanks for the treatise. Among supplies ordered from Harbor Freight is this dial indicator (photo), which I haven’t yet used. I assume it probably works similarly. BTW, I didn’t see the small brass piece in the caliper case.

Someone said that a micrometer is more accurate than a caliper so eventually that will be on my list of things to buy once this lathe is disassembled and then assembled, which will be at least a few months away. LOL


----------



## Redirish

Hey, I feel your pain about needing more hands while working on that gear box. My hands are sort of oversize anyway, and I had a heck of a time trying to get every thing in place. Amazing how much trash and swarf can find its' way in there. Plus 1 on the pipe cleaners, I smoke a pipe, so I've got lots of cleaners, including the bristle kind. Invaluable for scrubbing out oil passages and the other hard-to-get-to places. Regarding the taper pins and reamers, I had to get mine from MSC, as there were none locally. I'm sure there are less expensive places to buy them, but I've bought from MSC for years, so that's where I went. Going oversize on the pins is OK, no harm done.)


----------



## SE18

Thanks, I'll probably need a bigger taper pin and a taper drill. Anyone know what sizes on both and the cheapest place to order them. I probably need a couple sizes, original and maybe 1 or 2 sizes bigger on the pins and bits. It's really a shame that recessed hex bolts or something could have been used. It would have made life a lot easier for me and others who've had taper pin headaches. I don't think they use them in modern-day machinery.


----------



## 12bolts

Dave,
That little brass strip is'nt always supplied with calipers. I have one with my Mitutoyo dial calipers but not with my cheapo ones. So maybe they come with the better sets, I dont know? I just mentioned it in case you had it but did'nt know what it was for.

The reason for using taper pins in assembly is for *"precise"* location of parts. The parts are assembled at the factory to exacting tolerances and then drilled and pinned. By drilling a tapered hole, when parts are reassembled, the taper will allow for small errors to be pulled back into perfect factory alignment as the pin is pressed home. Having mating parts on either end that need to be reassembled exactly could not be achieved using set screws.
Taper pins also do not allow for any movement of parts in relation to one another after installation due to it becoming an interference fit on assembly. A screw or even a dowel pin or key cannot provide that level of security. Thread tolerances that allow the set screw to be installed mean that there must be clearances allowing for possible movement. If a dowel pin, or key and way, had the interference that a taper pin provides then assembly would be impossible.
Taper pins are still in common use in industry today on parts that need precise alignment.

Cheers Phil


----------



## pjf134

SE18,
 Take another try with the taper pin, it may come out. The little heater was for heating the gears so I could turn them and get to my pins that were facing the wrong way. You could try that with the pin, as the shaft will expand with heat and just maybe the pin won't since half of it is gone. The cast will rust when bare and it all depends if you have rust issues on bare parts in your shop or not. When you use way oil on the lathe when done wiping it down after using you could do the same for the bare parts on the cast parts also. When you have the lathe tore down it would be a nice time to paint the parts, I did paint almost everything I could since it way easy at that time. I also did one assembly at a time so I would not wind up with extra parts at the end and wonder where they go. Gears break from abuse and there is many ways to do this. Always turn off machine when changing gear box gears or back gear. Make sure gears mesh properly when putting together, loose fitting gears will slap a tooth or two when running like that. More to come as you get further. I hope I answered your questions.
 Paul


----------



## SE18

thanks, Phil, Paul, great argument for using taper pins. I'll go to MSC and some other sites and order a bunch of taper pins and taper drills.

Last night I removed the shaft, but it wasn't pretty as you can see from the pictures. Don't look at the photos if you are in any way squeemish.

One hole on the collar is perilously close to the edge. Photos show both sides of collar and both sides of the shaft.

Now, how to proceed?

Please tell me if this plan has merit or if you know another way, other than buying new parts:

clean holes of cutting oil with soap and water and pipe cleaner. Dry. Then fill holes with JB Weld, putting masking tape on all sides after so it doesn't run out. Then proceed with taper drill either in one of the holes or make a new one. I'm concerned though about making a new hole as metal fatigue could result. Thusly, I am thinking to go with small taper so that hole doesn't get any larger. The JB Weld would give me a chance to do that. Unless there's a better product (If I knew how to weld, some hot metal in there would work)

If I use a taper drill on that hole you see on the collar, it will probably collapse the wall (last photo shows how close that hole is to the edge).

You can see I've created a fine mess. All b/c of that taper pin, parts of which are still inside after the drill bit wandered around on me.

Eager to hear any constructive advice.

-------

Paul,

Question regarding gears and preventing breakage. I'm guessing you should wait until the machine comes to a complete stop before throwing the drum switch into forward or reverse from the other direction. Also stop when making any other changes to levers and anything. Are there any possible lever combinations that could cause harm, perhaps like not engaging the half nut when threading or turning forward with gears locked, etc? I kinda would like to know the answer to that down the road once I start actually using the lathe.

Dave


----------



## pjf134

Dave,
 On your machine you should stop machine when changing gears and also when using reverse, some motors will let you reverse while running, but on yours I would not. Reverse is seldom used because reversing spindle and cutting could unscrew a threaded chuck, so I would just not use it to be safe for now. For threading you should engage back gear, pull the pin on the bull gear and engage half nuts while running, could be done while machine is off also, but we will get to this when you get to that point. Only use half nuts when threading, use the power feeds all other times to save the threads on half nuts. Keep in mind the thread dial needs to be set with the lead screw and marks on the dial, we will get to this later when ready for it. Make sure the gears engage right, not to tight or too loose, will assure yours gears last. Your drilled out collar should be OK for reuse since there is hardly any forces on it
 Paul


----------



## SE18

pjf134 said:


> Dave,
> Your drilled out collar should be OK for reuse since there is hardly any forces on it
> Paul




Thankfully the problem is here and not later. I think I learned my lessons enough to do a better job if I come to another stuck taper.

My thought for now is to put taper in hole. In the mistake hole (the extra hole shown), I think I'll stick a thick copper wire in there tight, then heat with torch and flow solder in and cut flush. That should close up the hole nicely, at least cosmetically, and the copper and solder will not harm anything. I don't think the shaft will get hot enough to melt the solder anyway.

Also, appreciate comments on gears and we'll get to more of that when this project is finished.

Appreciate everyone's help. Despite frustrations, I'm actually enjoying the whole process, believe it or not.

Dave


----------



## ScrapMetal

It's kind of a "catch-22".  If your lathe was up and working you could easily replicate that collar and probably the shaft as well.  I guess you could ask if someone could turn one for you.  Lots of helpful guys on here.

-Ron


----------



## SE18

The same thought occurred to me. I also could have turned out taper pins and who knows, maybe even a bunch of taper bits if I knew how to do those spirals and hardening. Heck, if I had a mill attachment I could even have turned out another shaft (a channel for the wick would need to be milled)! In fact, it would probably be a good idea once lathe is set up to replicate every part for spares. 

This whole thing has been on my mind, making it hard to sleep. I'm thinking that making a new taper hole there might collapse the thin wall between the parallel holes in the shaft and collar and for now, it might be wise to tap that area for a thin, bolt. Driving out another taper pin with a sledgehammer or even a 5 lb deadblow might be the death knell of that shaft. My main concern is that should the pin or anything fall out during operation, it would drop down into the central shaft gearstring and destroy them all.

Wish you knew how miserable life has become all b/c of 1 silly taper pin. I think the reason for the drill not going straight was my lack of experience and the shaft turning during the drilling process. Oh, did I mention that once I finished drilling and drove the shaft out, there were huge scratchmarks on the shaft and bronze bearings caused by the jagged hole? Am I the only one who makes mistakes? When I see other people's posts about restoration jobs, before and after photos, everything looks like it was done so perfectly.

-------------

Question:

My gearbox contains just one oiling hole unlike the book, which shows one on each side. I circled the lone oiling hole in blue. I sort of traced the channel and it goes all the way to the other side and then down into separate channels to all the bosses which contain the shaft holes. Sorry I didn't take a photo of that area. My plan is to drill out a pressed in plug on the other side (off to the right) and replace it with a small set screw wrapped in teflon tape (as recommended by the book). The book said the reason for doing this is to more easily clean out the passageways (better access for pipe cleaners and flushing with kerosene.

Here's my question: once I've done all of that, are the wicks supposed to extend the entire length of the passageway or only at the entry points. It was a bit hard deciphering that from the book photos.

Thanks again

Dave


----------



## Redirish

Regarding that single oil hole, on mine I drilled another hole at the other end, in line with the original. I got a handful of Gits oilers and reamed out the existing holes to fit on every oil hole in the machine, except the oil holes for the back gear eccentric, which I forgot. So much for old age. I don't like open oil holes, seems they attract every bit of swarf that comes by. BTW, I also didn't put oilers in the tumbler gear shafts. I think the wicks should extend the full length of the shafts.


----------



## SE18

Thanks, Red, you guys are all so patient with me. I considered doing the gib thing but saw each one on eBay for 16 or $17 a piece so that idea quickly evaporated. I think I read that the wicks are pulled through the holes via wires. So the rule is, whereever a passageway exists, a wick must be there


----------



## Redirish

Don't mess around with ebay. Just checked with McMaster-Carr and they have the Gits oilers starting at $ 1.69 each for the plain drive-in type.


----------



## SE18

Redirish said:


> Don't mess around with ebay. Just checked with McMaster-Carr and they have the Gits oilers starting at $ 1.69 each for the plain drive-in type.





Thanks, do you recall which ones you got? Look like you just press them in. If you forgot I can measure the holes. I'm assuming they're all the same size.

Here's direct link:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-oil-cups/=gscqfg

-------------------------

regarding that troublesome taper pin, I found an inexpensive source for taper pin bits, and I'm trying to decide which ones I need (I'm thinking I might need more later on). Also, unsure whether to get straight, spiral or helical bits).

http://www.victornet.com/report/Taper-Pin-Assortments/1011.html
and for the pins
http://www.victornet.com/report/Taper-Pin-Assortments/1011.html

My idea is to fill in all the holes with JB Weld and re-drill with the taper bit, holding shaft and collar completely vertical in drill press holder so bit doesn't wander. All work will cease for a while until I get this resolved

-----

I've been told another option is to use spring pins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_pin


thanks again

Dave


----------



## Redirish

The link you posted is the right one,( 1231K1 ). As to the reamers, some of mine are straight and some spiral. I can't tell any difference in the way they cut, both do a fine job. Use cutting oil on the reamers, and be sure not to run them backwards, as that will ruin them in short order.)


----------



## SE18

thanks for that info, Red.

Good progress, cleaned all the parts, pressed tumbler gears back in, reassembled that troublesome screw gear assembly and this week will be working on reassembling geartree.

In process of putting in new wicks, so many! 

The top gear assembly was hard to reassemble b/c keyway on shaft had to line up with it was pressed in. Witness marks don't help as the gear moves around a lot. Did a lot of tapping until I found the entryway. If you press too hard without a shoulder to back it, the fat little gear will push out the bronze bearing. I probably should do a drawing as hard to explain, but it's done.

The copper 12 gauge wire important for removing old wick out of hidden passageways, Pipecleaners too are needed.

Drilled out the pressed in plug, tapped and added set screw so gain access to the right side of gearbox oil channels (photo)

BTW, if you use a spring or roll pin in place of taper pins, they make dimpled punches to self-center the punch. Old farm hand told me about it

cheers

Dave


----------



## SE18

Hi guys, as promised I began my video series with an introductory one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-OwNUZesXE

LOL

I'm just learning Adobe After Effects so maybe future ones will have more animation and bling

I'm off to Korea for several weeks so will not be on the forum until late next month. I'm about done with the gearbox so that will be covered in 2 more videos planned

Be patient as it will take time. I'm hoping to document stuff for other dummies (if they exist, LOL), but I think I'm the only dummy on this forum

later


----------



## SE18

Hi all,

Back from Korea, snowed first week I was there. Enjoyed kimchi and soju.

Returned and reassembled the gearbox. One big problem I noticed is that the gears on the central shaft that connect with the gears from the top shaft are locked and don't spin (see red line area). (I didn't connect the assembly to the lathe, just hand spinning test). As well, the tumbler on that side does not engage in any of the holes. It follows the keyway OK but comes up short about 3/8" from each hole.

I'm puzzled what is causing this and definitely want to find out before proceeding any further.

The gears on the other side as well as the entire central shaft rotates freely by hand (blue line area)

The top gears all rotate when they are not hooked up with the gears on the central shaft.

BTW, the photo with the writing was taken as I was in the process in driving in the central shaft so that is why the last 2 gears are not yet seated. As you know, I snapped photos of each and every step. 

I'm also attaching a photo of the gearbox before it was dissassembled and cleaned. All gears are in the correct size and sequence.

Any help would be most appreciated as I thought I was so close to finishing this component!

Cheers

Dave


----------



## pjf134

Dave,
 Are the tumbler arms on the right side, this will cause it to not engage right as they are right and left.
Paul


----------



## SE18

Hi Paul, yes. They are correctly positioned. I don't have a final assembly photo but they are as they appear here, obviously with the gears and shaft in them.

Even when the tumblers are moved away from the gears, they still don't move.

Therefore it appears there are 2 problems which may or may not be related).

1. The tumbler on the side with the red line is not engaging in the holes

and

2. The gears immediately where the red line is are not rotating, irrespective of the tumbler engaged or not engaged

I'm sure the problem is very elementary and I'm not overly anxious at this point. I just wanted to see if anyone could figure out what's going on. My best guess is that somehow the gears are not correctly meshing, but I double and triple checked to ensure all the gears are in the right place. As a last resort, I may need to take everything apart and put it together again.



(in the photo with my red and blue lines, the taper pin was installed as were the tumblers with gears and shaft--just a reassembly photo).


----------



## pjf134

Dave,
 There could be a couple of things to check. If I remember right the 2 tumbler gears might be different. The main shaft gears should move by hand as long as the tumbler gear is away from it, and check to see if the tumbler gear lines up with the other shaft gear when lined up with the plunger in a hole. There are 2 gears that are alike and one is on the short shaft near to the case side and the other is on the main shaft in the same place. One is just a tad thicker than the other and would cause a real tight fit on one shaft at assembly. Another problem is the shaft is binding or just needs to be cleaned a little more to make it rotate easier. Maybe the felts are binding the shaft too. I hope this helps.
Paul


----------



## SE18

thanks, Paul, I'll check when I get home tonight. As I mentioned, all the shafts rotate, it's just the gears where the red line is on the central shaft. As you know, the gears on that troublesome side of the shaft are not fitted to keyways so the shaft can rotate without the gears rotating.

Since some gears look so similar, I'll have to find a book that has measurements that are precise so I can recheck that as well. It will sort itself out I'm sure.


----------



## SE18

found this so looks like I'll be counting teeth; LOL


----------



## SE18

Everything checked out OK, nothing was in the wrong place. All I did was to disassemble and assemble everything and now all is good and life is fine.

Picked up a 4 lb deadblow and 2 lb brass hammer from Harbor Freight yesterday to bang in the dowell pins, taper pins and shafts. Good prices and the hammers seem to be the same type you get at more expensive stores.

Also, picked up a very small grease gun from there for when I get to the cone later on. By mistake I picked up a box of metric grease fittings. I think they should have been imperial type.

So, dear friends, I'm ready to tackle the next aspect of the lathe dissassembly. I think the apron and saddle is next but I'll have to check my book.

The gearbox took a lot of time, but in the process I learned a lot and feel I'm better for it.


----------



## martik777

You are doing a great job there! I restored my 9A last year but did not completely tear down the gear box and apron, a good rinse with solvent was all that was needed. Without a specific problem or need to replace one of those gears I saw no reason to take them all apart. However, the clutch assembly tends to get loaded with swarf so that should be disassembled. And, of course, the spindle, headstock, cross feed/compound should get a complete teardown. I have the original GE motor too and it ran so well, I just cleaned up the end felts and oilers. I wouldn't be surprised if that motor lasts another 67 years!


There is a lot of good info in this 9A restore thread:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/1947-model-9a-128005/index2.html


----------



## SE18

Hi Martik,

Thanks for link. Glad your GE motor is doing well. At  the end of this renovation I plan to replace wiring and try to determine  how best to clean it up. Runs like a charm.

Regarding the  gearbox, I took it apart mainly b/c it was dirty and to replace all the  wicks. If I hadn't broken it completely down, I'd have never gotten to  those areas. The 2 hardest things on the gearbox looking back on it,  were the taper pin and lining up all the gears on the keyway doing it  blind. Book says to mark teeth with marker but markers just don't mark  on gears b/c of the oil. If anyone knows of a better way to mark gears,  I'd sure like to hear about it b/c later in my build there will be a  time or 2 I need to do it again. If you're off just a tad, you risk  damaging the keyway on the gear and on the shaft.

As each  component of lathe is taken apart, I oil it up. In this case the Q/C  gearbox is oiled with B oil and placed in a shoebox along with the nuts  and gear that will go on the leadscrew at a future point in time.

Yesterday  I dissassembled about half of the apron and stopped when I started  getting tired. Will resume that teardown this week. Sometime today I'll  try to post photos and a description of how it went (went well). However, none of my photos are uploading at this time.

cheers

Dave


----------



## SE18

well, looks like the photo thing is done so I'm back, like it or not 

The gearbox is back together after being taken apart, cleaned and rewicked. It is in a shoebox now. Reverse gears are in another shoebox. And finished the apron this weekend and it too is in a shoebox, cleaned and rewicked.

I've gone into great lengths about the gearbox so now a chat about the apron...

The slotted screws holding the apron to the saddle were a real B***** to remove so ended up cutting a deeper channel with a small dremel wheel, just enough to get the blade in deeper

The saddle locking shoe picture in the book is different than my saddle locking shoe (see book photo vice the shoe I'm holding). I'm told that the shoe I have is an earlier version (1942).

The book completely left out dissassembly of an important component. In file photo DSC03122 (last photo showing the assembled and cleaned apron), the apron in the red box, look to the extreme left. There's a vertical component with a gear attached at the lower end. I don't even know what it's called, but it was mentioned nowhere in the lathe dissassembly book. I had to remove it in order to remove the long pin that is pulled out through 2 holes (I forget the name of that pin, but it is in DSC03052 file photo protruding through a giant hole)

I managed to unscrew the screw from the star wheel. It unscrews clockwise. The book mentions this, which is helpful.

I've come to conclude that paint is nasty. It flakes off and gets into all the parts. See the photo of the wractchet. I wish there was no paint on the lathe and eventually I may try and remove all of the paint and just keep a light coat of oil on the lathe, similar to cast iron cookware. Paint is NASTY!

I'm including some before and after photos showing gunk and cleaning after.

The tiny pin that holds the collar to the worm gear shaft was another B**** to remove. I used the procedure from the book, using a 1/4" socket and a steel clamp to remove it. Guess what? The clamp broke and I had to get another clamp to remove it. Then, I had to work it out with a vice grip. It was a real pain!

Lastly, 2 teeth on clutch gear were damaged. I thought about throwing a bead of weld on it and filing to profile but enough of the teeth remain that it should be no problem engaging the worm. I discussed this with some others and showed photos.

So, everything is assembled, new wicks, gasket with RTV blue, and next we go to the saddle. Haven't started yet. Need recovery time between components!


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## martik777

Nice work!  It would be helpful to have some pics of the apron wicking routing as that is always a source of confusion.  I am surprised your  power feeds don't slip under load with that damaged worm gear. I had to replace mine but it was severely worn.


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## 12bolts

SE18 said:


> There's a vertical component with a gear attached at the lower end.



Thats a thread chasing dial. The gear runs on the leadscrew. It is used when threading so that you can pick up the same tooth on the leadscrew in relationship to your half nuts. Allows you to disengage the saddle and return to the same start position on your threading. You need to note the number/indexing marks on the dial on the top as you engage the half nuts.

Cheers Phil


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## SE18

Thanks, Phil, Marti,

9A lathes differ somewhat. The shafts in mine did not contain the longitudinal wick troughs. Some do. Actually, there was just one wick to install, but it was the hardest wick to install as I had to tie a tiny wire to it and pull it through a long wick hole and bend it around inside a shaft hole. The other end of the wick had a protruding piece. IOW, the wick was basically in the shape of a small flag attached to a flag pole. The main thing was that the wire kept falling off the end of the wick as I pulled it through. It took about 7 tries but finally made it. Wick soaked in A oil type. Gear coated in C type.

I'm hoping the damaged gear doesn't fail under load! You got me worried now. If it fails and more teeth break, I'm thinking it could screw up the worm gear as well as any gears attached to those. Perhaps I should have welded and profiled it? That would mean taking everything apart again and purchasing a new gasket (unless I can cut and make my own). I'm wondering if it would be worth it to do? I have access to the Fort Meade MD auto body center where they have TIG and MIG welders that they would let me use for a fee. 

Also, thanks Phil for identifying the mystery part. You know, I've never before even used the lathe to turn anything and once my restoration job is complete I'll need to learn how to use it!


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## SE18

Here's how the 1 and only wick for my apron would be inserted. Pulled in through the lower hole by a thin wire and wraps around inside the upper bearing.


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## martik777

I wouldn't worry about that worm gear, look how chewed up mine was and it only slipped under heavy load. I bet my oil sump was dry for years.  I since replaced it with a lucky find on ebay for $18.  Must have been a heck of a crash to fracture those gear teeth like that?  I would just leave it and find out how it runs as is, maybe file down the sharp edges.  Did you turn it manually to see how the worm/worm gears and clutch engage? A wooden dowel inserted in the worm works well to test that. There will be no further damage under normal operation as long as it engages smoothly. You could also repair it by tapping in some screws, loctite or braze and file to shape - easy to do right on the lathe even without the apron installed. 


Thanks for the wicking info,  mine had the horiz trough and I just rinsed the whole apron out with paint thinner but may re-wick  next time I re/re it. 

Looking forward to your next installment!


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## SE18

Thanks, Marti!

So, where were we? Oh, apron. I tested the worm/clutch gears using a wooden dowel to manually turn it several times around, being satisfied that running was smooth. Also, tested all the other gears in all possible positions that they can be engaged in using the levers

Then, it was on to the saddle, which I’m still working on. This time, I decided to number everything for clarity. The numbers got out of order so just follow below:

So:

Photo 1: Removed Gib plate. Notice the mountain of ugly swarf that came out!!!

Photo 2: Removed the socket set screws (one on each side) from back of crossslide.

Photo 8: removed compound from crossslide by pulling straight up

Used a hex key to push out the locking shoes, which were behind the set screws (Photos 3 and 4). No force was needed, they just popped out nicely.

There was a lot of play (backlash) in the crossfeed lever (see video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrXp0-Gc6SE

Solution was to simply tighten the knob. I couldn’t afford $30 for a ½” spanner bit so made my own from a washer which I cut with a hacksaw and ground to profile (photos 5 and 7). This greatly reduced backlash.

Loosened this screw (don’t know the name of it) using a brand new heavy-duty screwdriver from TSC (photo 6 and 15). Had to brush away swarf from the slot.

I then used a 1/8” hinged pin spanner wrench ($30) to loosen the collar of the cross-feed screw. This was a b**ch as it wouldn’t budge. I turned it counterclockwise like the books says). Ended up using a 5 lb deadblow and the pin kept popping out of the hole. I only got it turned about half a turn (photos 9 and 10). I'm really not looking forward to reinstalling this!!!

Photo 11: removed the 5 gib screws from crossslide then tried but failed to persuade the cross slide from parting from the saddle. Ended up using the deadblow to persuade it off. It was another real bi**ch removing. (photos 12 and 13)

Photo 14. Shows the gib plate (that was attached to the 5 gib screws on the cross slide. The holes you see are NOT threaded. It appears that the ends of all 5 screws merely set in the holes when they are tightened. It kind of flew out when the cross slide was removed so I’m not quite sure which side is up or down. There’s some engraved tags on it so I’ll remount it later so that the tags are not upside down and we’ll see if that works.

Photos 16 and 17: removed the 4 brass wiper shrouds and bolts. The felts were missing but there was just sludge inside.

Photo 18: saddle is pulled straight up and away.

So the disassembly process continues, but at this point last night I called it a night as I was pretty exhausted. There’s probably more disassembly needed, e.g. perhaps the compound feed screw and bronze nut in the compound, if I can do it.

There’s a heck of a lot of cleaning to do and the 4 felt wipers need to be replaced.

Stay tuned. Any tips appreciated. I'll try to better document subsequent stages; the numbers on photos should help IMO

Dave V


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## martik777

You may want to mill or file the protrusion of the crossfeed nut/setscrew flush with the top of the crossslide to simplify placement of a height gauge or milling attachment. 

Stop buying all those expensive tools!  There is nothing you have done so far that could not have been accomplished with fabricated tools (like your spanner washer bit) but then I'm cheap and resourceful, LOL!

I replaced all my gib adjusting screws with knurled shop made screws (12-28) so I wouldn't have to hunt for a small screwdriver every time they needed adjusting. A small ball bearing in each hole seems to smooth operation too.


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## SE18

Marti, good idea about the use of homeshopped screws; some pictures would be helpful

well, the saga of the troublesome crossfeed screw on the saddle continues.

Photo 1: The book doesn’t mention an oil set screw here and I didn’t see it until too late (lesson, don't believe everything you read). The act of twisting off the collar with the 1/8” hinged pin spanner wrench damaged the hole that the vice goes into and the torque caused the destruction of the oil set screw (a), ripped off the edge of the apron and then caused some damage to the shaft where the screw went round and round on it, acting sort of like a screw lathe. (b) shows the oil hole which the set screw covered. That’s how far I got the shaft off before realizing the damage that the oil set screw was causing. I removed the set screw by drilling it out with “screw out.” It’s the first time I used screw out and it lived up to all its hype as it extracted it beautifully.

So now I need a new oil set screw and I have to do some welding to fix all the other damage that was caused.

Photos 2, 3, 4, 5, 6: shows the easy removal of the collar, dial ring, ball crank, retaining nut, key, set screw and brass shim washer from the saddle’s crossfeed screw. There was supposed to be a brass shoe behind the set screw but I wouldn’t find one there. Not sure how critical that brass shoe is or what function is served by it.

Photo 7: a closeup of the damage caused by the oil set screw. Notice a pair of vice grips had to be used to remove the collar, as the 1/8” hole for the spanner wrench was wrecked from the high torque.

Photos 8 and 9: crossfeed screw successfully extracted! What a bi**h. Oh, and btw, the crossfeed screw is crooked. Not sure if that matters or not.

Well, I still have some other components to the saddle to dismanted before I’m done; then a lot of cleaning and lubricating parts and need to do some welding. What do you suggest for this type of work? (Steel buildup). Arc, MIG or OxyAc?

Cheers

Dave


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