# The white beards, sliver backs, and grey wizards...



## Phrog (Jul 5, 2014)

For the last 30+ years I worked with my hands from the Marines to civilian life in aviation. I have always enjoyed working and getting dirty... putting in a hard days work. I wanted to learn welding and search and search finally finding a place that was not a community college or vocational school that cost thousands of dollars and 2 or more years. I was not looking to get certified just gain the fundamentals, use the equipment, and get direction and instruction from an experienced " white beard, silver back, grey wizard " that has done welding his entire life . I was able to go after work, on my days off, and some weekends... I paid for the time I needed and the use of his equipment and it was a fair deal. After 6 months and yet still a novice at MIG and TIG welding, I have a good base to move forward on my own.


My latest search for the same experience regarding conventional Lathe has not gone so well. I have found plenty of vocational and other schools that offer CNC Lathe... $10k+ and 1 to 2 years. It would be great to just buy an entry level lathe and make chips... However, I do not have a place for a lathe at this time. 


The desire to take a piece of metal and machine it into something useful is a burning one.  With all the skilled trades and those white beards, silver backs, and grey wizards out there it seems a shame that a person wanting to put in the time and money for such an experience as a hobby-machines can't be found.  I have gone to many machine shops and was turned away, be it a liability issue, workload, or just no interest.... that it's a bit unsettling.  It's been a long year in my search and I will not give up.


Perhaps a thread could be started with those white beards, silver backs, and grey wizards that would be willing to lend a hand and teach those of us that are deprived of the power of the Lathe and Mill.


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## DMS (Jul 5, 2014)

It looks like they are planning a TechShop in the LA area. This doesn't necessarily give you access to a dedicated instructor, but it does give you access to the machines. IIRC, they had a deal a while back for free or low cost subscriptions for veterans; not sure if they are still running it.


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## 09kevin (Jul 5, 2014)

Perhaps a thread could be started with those white beards, silver backs, and grey wizards that would be willing to lend a hand and teach those of us that are deprived of the power of the Lathe and Mill.[/QUOTE]


Check out the mentors thread http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forumdisplay.php?f=199, maybe there is someone in your area willing to help.

Kevin


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## Ray C (Jul 5, 2014)

Phrog said:


> For the last 30+ years I worked with my hands from the Marines to civilian life in aviation. I have always enjoyed working and getting dirty... putting in a hard days work. I wanted to learn welding and search and search finally finding a place that was not a community college or vocational school that cost thousands of dollars and 2 or more years. I was not looking to get certified just gain the fundamentals, use the equipment, and get direction and instruction from an experienced " white beard, silver back, grey wizard " that has done welding his entire life . I was able to go after work, on my days off, and some weekends... I paid for the time I needed and the use of his equipment and it was a fair deal. After 6 months and yet still a novice at MIG and TIG welding, I have a good base to move forward on my own.
> 
> 
> My latest search for the same experience regarding conventional Lathe has not gone so well. I have found plenty of vocational and other schools that offer CNC Lathe... $10k+ and 1 to 2 years. It would be great to just buy an entry level lathe and make chips... However, I do not have a place for a lathe at this time.
> ...



I think you've found a good place to start.  There are many folks here who share a lot of information.  As for getting hands-on training, that's a bit more complicated due to a mix of many things -logistics and safety/liability concerns being high on the list.  I have a small shop and my insurance forbids me from allowing customers to enter the work area.  Also, accidents are common with new users and damage to life, limb and physical property are valid concerns.  Simple mistakes even under close supervision are common and a simple mistake can have serious consequences.  If there is no one near you who can overcome the hurdles, it might be worth considering getting a very small (low power), inexpensive lathe or mill and practice on your own.   Any piece of machinery (even low powered stuff) can cause injury but, the chances of life-threatening catastrophic events with a very low power unit is vastly mitigated.  In other words, you could get a nasty gash or possibly lose a finger tip -but it's unlikely that a 1/5 HP mini-lathe will rip your arm out of the socket the way a 1 or 2 HP machine is easily capable of.  This is not an official rule but when it comes to stationary equipment like lathes and mills, anything that weighs significantly less than you do stands a lesser chance of being able to kill you.  (This is not a hard and fast rule by any means but, I hope you get the picture).

I've been around this forum for a fair amount of time and there are many folks here who started-out this way.  There are a variety of mini-mills and lathes to consider.  I'm not the right person to ask about suitable brands/models of this smaller equipment but other folks here can and will offer their opinions if you ask.  I scan many of the "new user" threads and usually respond to technical "how-to" type questions and there are many other qualified people here who do the same...


Ray


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## cvairwerks (Jul 6, 2014)

Phrog: A couple of guys over on youtube are worth watching. All are pros and take you into their personal shops and give lots of hows and whys. These guys are woth looking at and other videos that pop up along side theirs can point you in many other directions. A good start is with Oxtoolsco, Tubalcain and lastly Abom79.​


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## richl (Jul 6, 2014)

Look for groups or clubs in your area. Check the forum here for any groups in your area, meet other like minded individuals. Its probably the best way to. Get hands on instructions.  Hth.

Rich


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Jul 7, 2014)

richl said:


> Look for groups or clubs in your area. Check the forum here for any groups in your area, meet other like minded individuals. Its probably the best way to. Get hands on instructions.  Hth.
> 
> Rich


         Do have long white beard , tend to supply old, outmoded advice, sometimes helpful advice,
and friendly encouragement.......BLJHB


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## Phrog (Jul 12, 2014)

cvairwerks said:


> Phrog: A couple of guys over on youtube are worth watching. All are pros and take you into their personal shops and give lots of hows and whys. These guys are woth looking at and other videos that pop up along side theirs can point you in many other directions. A good start is with Oxtoolsco, Tubalcain and lastly Abom79.​



Thanks... I have watch all of them and others... It's one of the reasons I want to get into lathe work.


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## toolman (Jul 12, 2014)

If you want to take a short drive east to Abilene, Tx. I can show you how to break stuff that you never knew could be broken. Probably not helpful, but it can be entertaining. :lmao:
Good luck on your quest!


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## Phrog (Jul 17, 2014)

toolman said:


> If you want to take a short drive east to Abilene, Tx. I can show you how to break stuff that you never knew could be broken. Probably not helpful, but it can be entertaining. :lmao:
> Good luck on your quest!



If I get over that way I will be sure to PM you.... I am very good at breaking stuff when needed...lol

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Ray C said:


> I think you've found a good place to start.  There are many folks here who share a lot of information.  As for getting hands-on training, that's a bit more complicated due to a mix of many things -logistics and safety/liability concerns being high on the list.  I have a small shop and my insurance forbids me from allowing customers to enter the work area.  Also, accidents are common with new users and damage to life, limb and physical property are valid concerns.  Simple mistakes even under close supervision are common and a simple mistake can have serious consequences.  If there is no one near you who can overcome the hurdles, it might be worth considering getting a very small (low power), inexpensive lathe or mill and practice on your own.   Any piece of machinery (even low powered stuff) can cause injury but, the chances of life-threatening catastrophic events with a very low power unit is vastly mitigated.  In other words, you could get a nasty gash or possibly lose a finger tip -but it's unlikely that a 1/5 HP mini-lathe will rip your arm out of the socket the way a 1 or 2 HP machine is easily capable of.  This is not an official rule but when it comes to stationary equipment like lathes and mills, anything that weighs significantly less than you do stands a lesser chance of being able to kill you.  (This is not a hard and fast rule by any means but, I hope you get the picture).
> 
> I've been around this forum for a fair amount of time and there are many folks here who started-out this way.  There are a variety of mini-mills and lathes to consider.  I'm not the right person to ask about suitable brands/models of this smaller equipment but other folks here can and will offer their opinions if you ask.  I scan many of the "new user" threads and usually respond to technical "how-to" type questions and there are many other qualified people here who do the same...
> 
> ...



thanks for the info Ray

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09kevin said:


> Perhaps a thread could be started with those white beards, silver backs, and grey wizards that would be willing to lend a hand and teach those of us that are deprived of the power of the Lathe and Mill.




Check out the mentors thread http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forumdisplay.php?f=199, maybe there is someone in your area willing to help.

Kevin[/QUOTE]

Kevin,
Thanks for the info... I will look into it

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DMS said:


> It looks like they are planning a TechShop in the LA area. This doesn't necessarily give you access to a dedicated instructor, but it does give you access to the machines. IIRC, they had a deal a while back for free or low cost subscriptions for veterans; not sure if they are still running it.



Thanks DMS

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DMS said:


> It looks like they are planning a TechShop in the LA area. This doesn't necessarily give you access to a dedicated instructor, but it does give you access to the machines. IIRC, they had a deal a while back for free or low cost subscriptions for veterans; not sure if they are still running it.



Who puts on the TechShop?  What is IIRC?


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## dave2176 (Jul 17, 2014)

Ray hit the nail on the head. Try to buy a small lathe that will fit in a closet and make some chips. The struggles you have can be quickly addressed here and in no time you will be turning out work you can write home about. 

Dave


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 17, 2014)

Phrog said:


> What is IIRC?



IIRC = *I*f *I R*emember *C*orrectly


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## Frank Ford (Jul 18, 2014)

Phrog said:


> After 6 months and yet still a novice at MIG and TIG welding, I have a good base to move forward on my own. . .
> 
> It would be great to just buy an entry level lathe and make chips... However, I do not have a place for a lathe at this time. . .
> 
> Perhaps a thread could be started with those white beards, silver backs, and grey wizards that would be willing to lend a hand and teach those of us that are deprived of the power of the Lathe and Mill. . .



Please accept my apology if I come off heavy-handed here, but this is a subject of continuing interest to me as a craftsman and teacher.

Your questions seem to be centered on the TEACHING, rather than the LEARNING.   As we work with any new technique, the one single element that is the most critical is PRACTICE.  Now that you have familiarity with welding and a burning desire to make things from metal, precisely what welding projects have you been doing?  What would you like to do?  Have  you acquired the equipment necessary to get started on welding projects?  

Same thing goes with the lathe.  I know hobbyists who make stuff on their lathes working in an apartment, not a garage.  If you get yourself a tiny hobby lathe and get started doing stuff,  you'll learn faster than you might imagine as you screw up, recover, screw up again, and get some things done for fun. Without continuing access to a lathe, I wonder how anyone could learn anything but the fundamentals that would have to be relearned later.

What, precisely, do  you want to make?  This question may seem like some kind of test, and that's because it is.

Every week, I talk to folks who want to learn to play guitar, banjo or another instrument.  My first questions are, "What style of playing do you want to do?  What songs do you want to learn?"  When I hear the answer, "I don't really know - I just like the sound of a banjo," I can be fairly certain that person will not learn to play.   If I hear something very specific, I have the sense that this person may be headed for fun.  

Just met a man the other day who wanted to find someone to teach him to build a guitar.  He'd bought a kit almost 30 years ago, and he wanted someone to show him step-by-step how to put it together.  I told him just to do it and see how things came out.  His response: "No way - I don't want to make mistakes."  Clearly, he will never do it.

It's all about learning.  It's all about making mistakes.  It's all about practice.  It's the journey, not the destination.   

I meet novice guitar builders all the time, and see their work - some of which is amazing, and some clearly not so good.  One thing I can tell for certain is those who are committed to the experience.  They pretty much all "just go for it."

As a hobby machinist/metal guy, I got a late start (60) into serious work.  I still make LOTS of beginner-type mistakes, and I'm still learning some really simple lessons, such as "how rigid is a rigid setup supposed to be, anyway?"  I do know that for me, all the serious learning has taken place when I was working solo.  I read everything I can on the subjects of my craft and interest, and I check in to these Internet forums at least daily, so I've picked up an incredible amount of information here as well.  In fact, it's ALL here, and has been all along.  I just wasn't able to absorb it until I was personally needing to solve the specific problems myself.

Sorry for the rant. . .


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