# Naval Artillery Dummy Shell Refurb!



## Weldo (Sep 11, 2021)

Hey guys!  It's been awhile!  I've been busy with other hobbies lately but I found some time to refinish my dummy shell!

So this thing's been sitting on my desk for years.  It's one of the first things I ever bought on the internet, being into militaria as I was at the time.

It's a dummy/training round for a 3" gun, is all I know.  I believe it was naval in origin, but I don't know for sure.

The body is wood, base is brass, and the upper parts, I think one part is steel and one part is cast iron.
	

		
			
		

		
	





The part that would be the fuse is steel.











As you can see it's in rough shape!  This is how it's looked ever since I got it, like almost 20 years ago...


I begin the process of disassembly!  There are obvious screws holding it together, but I found out just how damn tight they were!  The impact screwdriver got only one of them out...











I made a center punch mark to aid in reassembly.





The rest of the screws were more resilient.


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## Weldo (Sep 11, 2021)

The remaining 4 pins had to be drilled out.  I drilled the threads out as well as I could, using the optical centerpunch for as accurate a mark as possible.





Of course the drill bit still wandered off course...


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## Weldo (Sep 11, 2021)

The top fuse part screwed out with some heating.  The very tip was held on via a large bolt.


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## Weldo (Sep 11, 2021)

I chucked the parts up in the lathe and took a light clean up pass.  Then spent time with files, sandpaper, and scotchbrite to polish it up!





The wood was sanded down rather easily by hand.


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## Superburban (Sep 11, 2021)

Thats cool. Never seen one with the fuse markings.


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## Weldo (Sep 11, 2021)

I had to make all new pins.  It was 3/8" material with 5/16-18 thread.  But since I drilled the threads out I had to make them 3/8-16 threads.

I bought a few rods of 3/8" 303 stainless, my first experience with it.  What a pleasure to machine!  I had no trouble cutting threads.  I parted the rods off to a rough length, then machined a gullet at the base of the threaded portion, then just used a thread die on em.

This is what they looked like.





Getting it all to line up was tough because my drilling out of the threads was not very perfect.  I ended up having to buy a long 3/8-16 tap and stick it through what would be the "head" side of the workpiece and cut the threads on the opposite side to assure alignment.  I also had to drill out the "head" side to a little over 3/8" to allow some wiggle room.  I used a W drill if I recall.

But after that it was smooth sailing!  I installed the pins and noted how proud they were of the surface (I had left them about 0.125" long).  I then trimmed em on the lathe and rounded them off with the belt sander.

I used my shaper for the first time to make the slots in the pins.  It worked beautifully!


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## Weldo (Sep 11, 2021)

And here she is all new and shiny!  I put two coats of polyurethane on the wood, along with some cherry stain.

It looks a lot better on my desk now!  Very pleased with the result and it was a fun project!







And I'm excited I got to use the shaper to make actual useful parts!


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## Weldo (Sep 11, 2021)

Superburban said:


> Thats cool. Never seen one with the fuse markings.


Thanks!  Originally I wanted a giant brass casing, but I couldn't find one, so I ended up with this wooden one!


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## Weldo (Sep 11, 2021)

Feels good to be back, sharing shop projects!  I have a plan for another small one when the weather cools down.

I've got an old Lakewood box fan, it's so much better built than the cheap box fans available these days, but the bushings for the motor are oversized with age, causing the fan to make an annoying knocking occasionally.  I'm having to disassemble it and lube it with way oil every two weeks to keep it quiet. 

So I'm gonna convert it from old wallowed out bronze bushings to ball bearings.  I plan to document it as well but I think it's gonna work out amazingly!  Looking forward to getting going on that one!


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## gonzo (Sep 11, 2021)

Reminds me of  the line of chrome plated 3inch ones that lined up on the quarter deck while in port. Also there was an ashtray made out of a 8 inch powder casing. This hung around the various fire control areas for a long time and it seems as no one used it or cared for it. Therefore I was sorely tempted to take it with me when I was discharged. However the thoughts of getting caught with it at the gate served as a deterrent to my thievery endeavor!


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## Larry$ (Sep 11, 2021)

The fuse markings most likely are for timing used as anti aircraft. A very long time ago I spent my midshipman cruise on a destroyer that had 5" main guns. The timer fuse was set by the fire control system and started it's time when the gun fired. The 5" guns could fire 50 rounds a minute. For practice an airplane would pull a big fabric sleeve on a long line. Never thought I'd want to be that pilot. The fire control system was totally mechanical. High on the ship there was a maned turret that would visually track the target. It was linked to the "mechanical computer" and that was linked mechanically to the gun mount. The computer kept track of the roll and pitch of the ship and would fire the gun as the motion of the ship passed through the calculated spot. The computer was a beautiful collection of brass gears, differentials, pendulums & cams. The ship had been built in the 1950s and electronics didn't hold up well the the impact pounding of the guns. The super structure was aluminum and the welds would break from the gun shockwaves. In rough seas the ship rolled 45 degrees to each side. More fun than a roller coaster.


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## Superburban (Sep 11, 2021)

Larry$ said:


> The fuse markings most likely are for timing used as anti aircraft. A very long time ago I spent my midshipman cruise on a destroyer that had 5" main guns. The timer fuse was set by the fire control system and started it's time when the gun fired. The 5" guns could fire 50 rounds a minute. For practice an airplane would pull a big fabric sleeve on a long line. Never thought I'd want to be that pilot. The fire control system was totally mechanical. High on the ship there was a maned turret that would visually track the target. It was linked to the "mechanical computer" and that was linked mechanically to the gun mount. The computer kept track of the roll and pitch of the ship and would fire the gun as the motion of the ship passed through the calculated spot. The computer was a beautiful collection of brass gears, differentials, pendulums & cams. The ship had been built in the 1950s and electronics didn't hold up well the the impact pounding of the guns. The super structure was aluminum and the welds would break from the gun shockwaves. In rough seas the ship rolled 45 degrees to each side. More fun than a roller coaster.


So how did the control system set the fuse? The old mortars had to be set manually. Then they adopted the proximity fuse, which is a marvel in itself. One of the inventions that changed WWII. 

I have seen some documentaries on some of those mechanical control systems, they are mind blowing to think how they work. Similar systems were used on the subs to set the torpedo paths. As the sub turned, they would change the setting on the torpedo so it was ready to be fired all electro/ mechanical, I don think there was much electronics in them.


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## Weldo (Sep 12, 2021)

gonzo said:


> Reminds me of  the line of chrome plated 3inch ones that lined up on the quarter deck while in port. Also there was an ashtray made out of a 8 inch powder casing. This hung around the various fire control areas for a long time and it seems as no one used it or cared for it. Therefore I was sorely tempted to take it with me when I was discharged. However the thoughts of getting caught with it at the gate served as a deterrent to my thievery endeavor!


Hahaha, sounds tempting indeed!


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## Weldo (Sep 12, 2021)

Larry$ said:


> The fuse markings most likely are for timing used as anti aircraft. A very long time ago I spent my midshipman cruise on a destroyer that had 5" main guns. The timer fuse was set by the fire control system and started it's time when the gun fired. The 5" guns could fire 50 rounds a minute. For practice an airplane would pull a big fabric sleeve on a long line. Never thought I'd want to be that pilot. The fire control system was totally mechanical. High on the ship there was a maned turret that would visually track the target. It was linked to the "mechanical computer" and that was linked mechanically to the gun mount. The computer kept track of the roll and pitch of the ship and would fire the gun as the motion of the ship passed through the calculated spot. The computer was a beautiful collection of brass gears, differentials, pendulums & cams. The ship had been built in the 1950s and electronics didn't hold up well the the impact pounding of the guns. The super structure was aluminum and the welds would break from the gun shockwaves. In rough seas the ship rolled 45 degrees to each side. More fun than a roller coaster.


That’s really cool stuff, man!  Thanks for sharing!  It’s incredible what’s possible via mechanical “computation”.  Weren’t the bomb sights on the WWII bombers a similar thing?


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## Larry$ (Sep 12, 2021)

Superburban said:


> So how did the control system set the fuse?


I no longer remember but I assume it was done electrically. It had to be fast considering the rate of fire of just over one second per shot. There were two ammo hoists to each turret/ barrel. Loading took place from each side of the gun alternating, all automatic. Not as fast as a 600 rounds per minute machine gun but a 5" is a wee bigger. The rounds looked just like a very large riffle round.

Much of the ammunition, bombs etc. that were used during the 60s (Vietnam) were left overs from WW2. There were problems with hang fires. Rounds that failed to fire and then could cook off in the barrel. Bombs that were without the safety devices latter incorporated. See the Forestall fire information.

The carrier I was on got ordinance highlined over every 3rd day from supply ships. It would be stacked in the hanger bay until it could be moved to the magazines. In rough seas it was a risky operation. I saw a load of rockets hit the side of the aircraft elevator and scatter fuel across the deck. Lucky there were no sparks. Bombs were final assembled on the forward mess deck in order to keep up with the rate of use. That meant that almost 5000 men had to be fed from 2 lines on the aft mess deck.

Everything was being pushed to its limits. We were on station doing air ops for 3 months, then into Hong Kong for one week of R&R (It was called I & I in the NAVY.) Then back on station for another two months. So we were at sea 5 months with only a one week break. Had another 4 months to go before getting back to the US. The ship repair shops were very busy! Never had enough repair parts.


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## Weldo (Sep 12, 2021)

Interesting stuff!  I’d have never imagined when I posted this little project that there would be some guys who actually handled the real deal!

Were the 5” shells in huge brass casings?  Some of the bigger guns load the projectile first followed by charges of powder, don’t they?


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## Larry$ (Sep 12, 2021)

Weldo said:


> Were the 5” shells in huge brass casings?


Yes, they were just like over sized riffle ammunition. Yes, the rally big guns would ram the projectile into the barrel and then bags of explosives. The "powder" for a 16" was large molded pieces designed to produce a  relatively  slow even burn rate. It takes time to accelerate a 2000# projectile.  Each "grain" was about 7" long and 1 1/4 " diameter with holes molded in lengthwise. As the burn from the outside reduced the amount of surface area burning, the burn from the inside increased the burning area.


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## Superburban (Sep 12, 2021)

Larry$ said:


> Much of the ammunition, bombs etc. that were used during the 60s (Vietnam) were left overs from WW2. There were problems with hang fires. Rounds that failed to fire and then could cook off in the barrel. Bombs that were without the safety devices latter incorporated. See the Forestall fire information.


In Desert Storm, most of the artillery and mortar ordinance we hauled, had dates from the 40's to the 60'sDid not check all, but hardly saw any 70's, and the only 80's I saw was MLRS pods.



> The carrier I was on got ordinance highlined over every 3rd day from supply ships. It would be stacked in the hanger bay until it could be moved to the magazines. In rough seas it was a risky operation. I saw a load of rockets hit the side of the aircraft elevator and scatter fuel across the deck. Lucky there were no sparks. Bombs were final assembled on the forward mess deck in order to keep up with the rate of use. That meant that almost 5000 men had to be fed from 2 lines on the aft mess deck.


Amazing how much it takes to support an operation. I was a company commander for a transportation company, our trucks never stopped from Oct, to May.  Mostly hauling ordinance, and MRE's


> Everything was being pushed to its limits. We were on station doing air ops for 3 months, then into Hong Kong for one week of R&R (It was called I & I in the NAVY.) Then back on station for another two months. So we were at sea 5 months with only a one week break. Had another 4 months to go before getting back to the US. The ship repair shops were very busy! Never had enough repair parts.


Some individuals got breaks, but as a company, we worked from when we landed, until the day before we flew back to the US.


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## Weldo (Sep 12, 2021)

Cool stories, fellas!  I always appreciate hearing first hand accounts of stuff like that.  Stuff that they don't really report on and most people have no idea about, so thank you for sharing!



Larry$ said:


> Yes, they were just like over sized riffle ammunition.


That's what I was looking for when I found this wooden dummy round!  I'm guessing a 5" brass casing isn't something to be found on the civilian market.


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## Ischgl99 (Sep 13, 2021)

Weldo said:


> That’s really cool stuff, man!  Thanks for sharing!  It’s incredible what’s possible via mechanical “computation”.  Weren’t the bomb sights on the WWII bombers a similar thing?


Yes, the Norden bomb sight was a mechanical computer.  Carl Norden was the creator of the bombsight, and he took on Theodore Barth as his business partner.  They were the founders of Barden Bearings, which was created to supply high precision bearings for the bombsight.  They have an original bomb sight in the lobby of their factory.


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## Aukai (Sep 13, 2021)

Very cool stories.


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## gjmontll (Sep 14, 2021)

Interesting discussion here, somewhat along my prior area of expertise...

In the US Navy, my job (or "rating") was a FTG, a "Fire Control Technician, Guns" and was the start of my career in various aspects of the computer industry. Despite the "Guns" part of my rating, I served in the early 1970s, on nuclear attack submarines (Permit (Ex-Thresher) class, these boats were designed and built in the 1960s, back when digital computers were large, slow, and fragile.
Our fire control system, for torpedos (and a special antisubmarine rocket), was a hybrid of technologies which formed an analog computer system. Why analog? Purely digital computing was said to be too slow where real-time answers where needed as the situation changed. 

In submarine fire control, there were three main areas of functionality, 
1) Target motion analysis (TMA)
This is determining a target's course, speed and range, based on limited sensor data. And as part of the Fire Control Tracking party, we performed TMA calculations using the combined power of the human eye and brain. We were assisted by an electro-mechanical plotting table.  
BTW, we had also a purely digital electronic computer in our system, used to assist in the TMA. It was all discrete component technology, with 19Kbits of memory and no disk storage. 

2) "Angle Solving" The essence of submarine fire control is "gyro angle:" Based on our TMA solution, and the type of torpedo (missile) selected, are we in range to fire? And exactly what angle must the weapon, after firing, turn through to put it on course to intercept the target? These were continuously evaluated with the hybrid of mechanical/electrical/electronic analog computing.

3) Weapon control
Before firing there are several parameters that must loaded into the weapon before firing: gyro angle, distance, running depth, and perhaps sonar search settings. Some torpedoes can be wire-guided, updated with changes after firing. These are sent electronically over the wire.

Fire Control and Hobby Machinists: some common ground
As hobby machinists, we know about mechanisms with moving parts. Having to check alignment, wear, backlash, calibration, ... just like the job of us FT used to be. Now it's virtually all digital electronics. 
We had a myriad of interesting components, like syncros and servos, ball-disk integrators, electo-mechanical resolvers (for trigonometric calculations), zero-backlash gear trains, precision amplifiers, and mechanical analog-digital/digital-analog converters.  Maybe some of these are found in CAM machines. Now it's virtually all digital electronics.

  Greg, ex-FTG1(SS)


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## Weldo (Sep 17, 2021)

Cool!  This is some neat stuff.  I once saw a video showcasing a mechanical calculator, it had a dizzying amount of levers and pivoting mechanisms.  Figuring all that out is nothing short of miraculous!

Would it be accurate to say that most of mechanical computation is handled by gear ratios in various ways?


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## Weldo (Sep 17, 2021)

Here’s a pic of a mechanical calculator 
	

		
			
		

		
	




Source of image


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## gjmontll (Sep 18, 2021)

Weldo said:


> Cool!  This is some neat stuff.  I once saw a video showcasing a mechanical calculator, it had a dizzying amount of levers and pivoting mechanisms.  Figuring all that out is nothing short of miraculous!
> 
> Would it be accurate to say that most of mechanical computation is handled by gear ratios in various ways?


Weldo,
From my Fire Control Tech days (50 years ago), I can't recall any purely mechanical multiplication done by gear ratios. Our calculations required smooth, continuously-variable input and output values: i.e. real numbers rather than the discrete values of fixed gear ratios.  Much of the mechanical action were related to inputs to the computation, or a way of outputting the results of computation.
The Fire Control System's Attack Director section, which does the Target Motion Analysis (TMA) is a good example. It has several electro-mechanical modules, e.g. Own Ships Course, Own Ship's Speed, Target Course, Target Speed, Target Bearing, Target Range are both inputs and output devices. The modules might receive an manual input via a handcrank, or by electronic input via a "synchro-servo", in either case this causes some shaft rotation driving a dial (like a compass rose) or mechanical counter (like an odometer) providing a visual ouput for display as well as turn a shaft geared to a precision variable resistor to be used in analog math calculations.
As a purely hypothetical example, a given shaft position in the Target Range module might equate to 8,200 yards and result in a 8.200 volt output from the resistor. So the voltage is analogous to the range and would be one of several inputs to a precision OpAmp (operational amplifier) that could be used to multiple the variable range by other variables and/or constants. 
One place where purely mechanical computation is done is via a device known as a "ball-disc integrator." Rather than describe it myself, here is a link explaining the hardware and the mathematics involved. Singer Librascope Ball and Disc Integrators. These devices are analogous to continuously-variable transmissions rather than manual gearboxes. Our submarines' fire control systems were built by Singer Corp's Librascope division. (Singer made more than sewing machines.]
Here's an article specific to "my" Mk113 Mod 9 UWFCS (Actually, on our 594-class fast attack subs, we had the Mod 6 system. The Attack Director section is the top section of the wide stack on the left. You can see the six black hand knobs. When one is pulled out, automatic input is disabled and you can manually set a value, push it in and the knob is disconnected and the servo motors drive the module to an externally provided value (e.g. target bearing provided by sonar or from the periscope, or by the computed value (if in the dynamic "On Torpedoes Mode.")
    Greg  ex-submarine Fire Control Tech, FTG1(SS).


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