# Lathe recommendations for beginner home workshop?



## svideo (Dec 14, 2020)

Not sure if this is the right place for this but I know there is a lot of talent here and am hoping I might tap into the collected wisdom of those far more experienced with these tools than I'll ever be.

I'm a woodshop home gamer looking to extend my reach into metal.  I have some limited experience operating a Bridgeport and have placed an order for a PM-728VT benchtop mill from Precision Matthews.  That decision was reasonably-informed as I had some basic background experience there.

I'd also like to pick up a lathe for the home shop, but having never once touched a lathe I have very little idea of what exactly I should be looking for.  My use cases are pretty simple, everything I tend to work on happens to be small.  I primarily have been making small electronics and simple mechanical contrivances on a one-off basis.  As a result, I don't foresee a need for a huge bed/swing as I'm unlikely to be turning gun barrels or what have you.

With that said, here is my entirely-uninformed-by-any-experience list of thing I think I might want.  If anything in this list is dumb, I'm interested in being told about it 


Ability to cut a reasonably-wide range of materials, including most grades of steel
Speed of machining time isn't super important, if one can get a less-massive lathe that can still cut steel but with a smaller DOC then I am totally OK with that
Machine size in respect to the size of the work that can be handled isn't super important, but I understand that size also relates to capability and would be willing to buy a bigger machine just to get a better machine if needed.
I'm in the US but would prefer metric tooling if that's an option
Single-phase power up to 20A would be preferable
This is going into my basement, which is walk-out but that still is problematic for a 1000lbs+ machine.  Smaller would be better in that regard, but I can bust my hump to move something if it's really warranted.
I have been looking at Electronic Lead Screw projects with some interest.  I'm very comfortable w/ steppers and controllers etc and I think that might be a better solution for me than futzing with change gears, or spending $$$$ on something that requires less change-gear-futzin'.  I might be wrong about that and would appreciate input.
Precise enough to hold a thou with care and some work
An available DRO option would be preferred
Don't really care about CNC for this tool
Strong preference for a machine that doesn't require a lot of screwing around before first chips to make it not suck.  Buying a cheap chinese tool is OK, but if I need to be an experienced machinist to do whatever work is required in order to make that machine safe and reliable, then I have a problem because I am not an experienced machinist.  As a result, for my first set of tools I'd prefer to purchase something that is reasonably reliable straight out of the box.  Once I start understanding this stuff then I can go trolling CL for some clapped out Bridgeport treasure find (and then subsequent rebuild).


----------



## addertooth (Dec 14, 2020)

Questions back to you..
Single phase 20 amp 110v or 220v?
What is the longest item you wish to machine.  What is the largest diameter you wish to machine.

Comments: you will have to learn a LOT about machining, to integrate an electronic lead screw on any lathe, this particular desire on your part seems to contradict your expectation of easy learning curve.

p.s. Great choice on the PM 728vt... I got the same one


----------



## Watchwatch (Dec 14, 2020)

Taiwanese Precision Matthews. Getting the lathe downstairs won’t be fun though because they are all over 1k#.

I noticed you are in Michigan. Plenty of industrial auctions in your area. Check out bidspotter.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## svideo (Dec 14, 2020)

> Single phase 20 amp 110v or 220v?



The room has two 120V 20A circuits available, both happen to be on the same phase.  The house service entrance and breaker box is in the adjacent room so getting 2 phase over to the next room is doable.  3 phase is obviously doable w/ a VFD if needed.  In short, I'm willing to extend power as needed but it'd be easier and cheaper if it wasn't needed.



> What is the longest item you wish to machine.



Honestly, I don't have a clear answer on that which I appreciate is a little dumb.  My limited experience on a mill has informed my own thinking about the sorts of projects I can accomplish on a mill.  I have no similar mental framework for lathe work, I don't have a lot of problems today that a lathe will solve for me, but that is partly because I don't know how to use a lathe to solve my problems.  As a result the size consideration is of low priority vs the other items listed above.  In my research, a large lathe often has more features (and more rigidity etc), so I might wind up buying a large lathe than I need just to get that extra capability.



> Comments: you will have to learn a LOT about machining, to integrate an electronic lead screw on any lathe, this particular desire on your part seems to contradict your expectation of easy learning curve



Totally understood, and an ELS is a secondary objective which I'll probably only dig into after some time with the lathe as-is.  I am very experienced with steppers and stepper controllers and microcontroller firmware development.  The electronics are the easiest part of this project for me by a wide margin.  Is your concern about the mechanical aspects of integrating an ELS with an existing machine, or based on the complexity of the electro/mechanical solution?  If an ELS is the goal, would it be smart for me to consider a common lathe model where others have been working on the ELS solution to simplify the mechanical aspect for me?


----------



## svideo (Dec 14, 2020)

Watchwatch said:


> Taiwanese Precision Matthews. Getting the lathe downstairs won’t be fun though because they are all over 1k#.



PM feels like they offer an ideal tradeoff between price and quality for a first-time buyer, plus offering post-sale support and service.  If a PM lathe model makes sense I'd be happy to place another order with them for the same reasons.



Watchwatch said:


> I noticed you are in Michigan. Plenty of industrial auctions in your area. Check out bidspotter.com



My problem with this approach is that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and as a result, I don't know what to buy or how to find a deal or how to fix any issues that might have resulted in that deal.  Eventually, I think I'll have the experience required to score a smokin' deal on some well-used machine tools, but for this first purchase, I'd strongly prefer to pick up something that's ready-to-rock and has some support behind it.  I recognize that I'll pay more as a result, but that money is buying me less frustration in dealing with problems that I'm ill-equipped to handle on my own.


----------



## macardoso (Dec 14, 2020)

Think about the general work you'd like to do. If we are talking watches, then a sherline lathe will do everything you need. In general, I think a 12x36" is a great size for most hobby work. Sure a 13 or 14" lathe would be better, but most of us don't need that capacity or weight.

I'm making a medium sized steam engine (PM Research #6) and I wouldn't want a machine any smaller than my 12". It would probably be possible to do this kit on a 10" lathe, but the added mass and rigidity make holding the tolerances much easier.

12x36" is probably the smallest lathe that can effective do gun work. 

I got mine used in good condition for $1200 and it weighs in the neighborhood of 800-1000lbs. If you have a walkout basement then you are golden. I would plan on pulling 240V (30 or 40A dryer outlet) from the panel. It makes your machine choices much easier


----------



## macardoso (Dec 14, 2020)

BTW, welcome to HM!


----------



## Watchwatch (Dec 14, 2020)

Buy a 1236T or 1340t and call it good. Pay a pro to move into the basement. Buy once, cry once.

The 1236T will do all you want to do and then some.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macardoso (Dec 14, 2020)

svideo said:


> My problem with this approach is that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and as a result, I don't know what to buy or how to find a deal or how to fix any issues that might have resulted in that deal. Eventually, I think I'll have the experience required to score a smokin' deal on some well-used machine tools, but for this first purchase, I'd strongly prefer to pick up something that's ready-to-rock and has some support behind it. I recognize that I'll pay more as a result, but that money is buying me less frustration in dealing with problems that I'm ill-equipped to handle on my own.



I'm somewhat local to you, as are a few other HM members. If you find a lathe within an hour or two of me, I'd be happy to help you inspect it.

Check out HGR.com. They are 10 minutes from my house and have a constantly rotating inventory of machine tools. They come in priced high and the price drops over 2 months or so. Anything that doesn't sell is scrapped. Most everything sells. I've met guys driving up from Mexico to get good deals on machinery there.

That's where I got my lathe and an industrial robot.


----------



## svideo (Dec 14, 2020)

macardoso said:


> Think about the general work you'd like to do. If we are talking watches, then a sherline lathe will do everything you need. In general, I think a 12x36" is a great size for most hobby work. Sure a 13 or 14" lathe would be better, but most of us don't need that capacity or weight.
> 
> I'm making a medium sized steam engine (PM Research #6) and I wouldn't want a machine any smaller than my 12". It would probably be possible to do this kit on a 10" lathe, but the added mass and rigidity make holding the tolerances much easier.
> 
> ...



What lathe are you using today?  I'm not opposed to something the size of a Sherline, and at that price I would simply pull the trigger today because it wouldn't require a lot of planning (or money).

Here's a dumb question - with a small lathe (Sherline etc) with very little mass, am I still able to cut harder materials by way of reducing the DOC?


----------



## macardoso (Dec 14, 2020)

svideo said:


> What lathe are you using today?  I'm not opposed to something the size of a Sherline, and at that price I would simply pull the trigger today because it wouldn't require a lot of planning (or money).
> 
> Here's a dumb question - with a small lathe (Sherline etc) with very little mass, am I still able to cut harder materials by way of reducing the DOC?



I have an Enco 110-2031 (same as the Grizzly G9249 - link below). It is an import 12x36 with an open quick change gearbox. The 12" lathes and a few 10" ones have easy support for metric threading with few change gears as well as a power cross feed. Both are desirable features.



			https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g9249_m.pdf
		


Yes you can take light cuts in tough materials, but to a limit. Tough materials will create larger cutting forces which will deflect the tool and either create chatter or limit your accuracy. The lighter the machine the more trouble you will have with this. There is a minimum depth of cut before the tool starts to rub. Other operations like parting may be completely unsuccessful on a small lathe where a bigger one would have no problem.

I've done some bigger work where I wish I had the rigidity of a 13" lathe, but I've been able to slow down and take lighter cuts. The whole time I was thanking myself I had as big of a lathe as I do.

But.... if I were doing miniature work, it would be overkill and I could have gotten away with a smaller machine.


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 14, 2020)

The smallest PM lathe would probably be fine for you.  1022 which is 10".   I doubt you would need larger based on your requirements
I do similar stuff with a 6" Atlas but I did need to fix it up a bit.  
-Mark


----------



## ttabbal (Dec 14, 2020)

I currently have a PM1127. It's been a great machine to learn on. I have occasionally hit the limits on size, but always found ways to work with it. 99% of my work is about 1" material, and less than 12" of work length, which is well within the envelope of the machine. The PM 10" lathes are pretty good for their size, but you get a lot of upgrades with the 1127. The larger spindle bore is a big win by itself. 

If you can swing the budget, space, power, go for the 1236T. It will be tough to outgrow, you get the next step up in precision and quality, and a gearbox. So you might not need to consider messing with an ELS. Not that I don't recommend them, I have one, but if I had a gearbox I probably wouldn't have bothered. Fabricating the parts can be tricky with low experience levels, like myself. I had to do a lot of reading and watching videos to learn how to do some things like cutting keyways on the lathe. It will also be complicated by not having a mill, but it can be done without one. None of the parts need super high precision, so it's not too bad. If you do go that route, I recommend an existing setup like the Clough42 that you can adapt rather than rolling your own from scratch. It makes it less important for you to know as much about machining as the tough parts are done already. 

People focus on threading with ELS setups, but honestly, I think feed rates are at least as important. It's so nice to be able to go from a high speed roughing feed to a slow finish pass by tapping a couple of buttons rather than swapping stacks of gears around. A couple of lathe features I didn't think were that important that I use all the time and would really miss, power cross-feed, and the D1-4 spindle. Swapping chucks with 3 cams is so much easier and faster than unbolting the chuck. And it's much simpler to get a nice facing finish with the power feeds. And being and to part under power is nice, frees up a hand.


----------



## svideo (Dec 14, 2020)

The 1236T is what I've been looking at for the reasons you've outlined.  It will however require saving up a bit more cash, some electric run, and also somebody that can help me hump that big boy into my basement


----------



## ttabbal (Dec 14, 2020)

Yup, putting bigger machines in a basement would be a bit annoying. I don't want to even imagine trying to move the Bridgeport down stairs. I know it can be done safely, but I think I'd hire that out. The lathe is probably less annoying than a mill would be. If you're serious about this stuff, that is an excellent choice for a lathe. If I'm ever in the position to be able to justify it, I would love to own one. I love my 1127, but the 1236T is a whole different class.


----------



## macardoso (Dec 14, 2020)

With a good quick change gearbox, I feel I have no need for an ELS. Changing between most imperial threads and feeds takes less then a second. 

I was able to get my lathe down the basement by myself in 3 pieces using a few 2x4s as a ramp and some rope and a pulley system. Took an afternoon but I did zero heavy lifting. The lathe was assembled and lifted onto the base using a 1 ton engine hoist.


----------



## mksj (Dec 14, 2020)

Two different approaches, if you plan on doing an ELS, then you are paying a bit more for a 1236T, maybe consider the PM-1127 or 1228 with variable speed, D1-4 chuck mounts and add an ELS. Might also look at this one, which is both and ELS, DRO and semi-CNC https://www.rocketronics.de/en/els/

If going with the 1236T, probably just deal with the current Norton Gearbox and see how it goes. One issue with doing metric threads on lathes with imperial leadscrews is for the most part the half-nut needs to remain engaged through the threading process. I do quite a bit of metric threading, so I use a proximity stop system which stops the lathe at the same position when repeating the thread. I thread at 250-450+ RPM and just not quick enough to do it otherwise. My current lathe has a universal gearbox so no change gears for metric, although I had the PM-1340GT previously and made due with the manual gearbox change gears for metric. Quite a few of the metric threads are handled by the same gear set, so not that big a deal if you are not threading frequently. When doing imperial threading there are no change gears.








						ERL1340 Thread Cutting with a Proximity Stop System
					

I often get questions on thread cutting using a proximity stop system, recently I had to make several threaded micrometer shafts out of O1 steel, all with the same dimensions and thread tolerances. I do not have any fancy camera holders or editing software, so just propped the camera on the head...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## Aaron_W (Dec 14, 2020)

With vague ideas of what you want to do with it, I'd suggest either going with a mini-lathe Sherline, Taig or one of the Grizzly 7, 8 or 9" lathes. Small enough to easily get into a basement, not a huge investment, handy as a second lathe if you go bigger and easy to offload on Craigslist if you prefer.

Option B go with a 12 or 13" lathe as that size seems to satisfy most. If you go with plan B I'd buy as good as you can afford. The PM1236T you mentioned seems to be well regarded. Grizzly's 12x36 lathes are also popular.


----------



## macardoso (Dec 14, 2020)

mksj said:


> Two different approaches, if you plan on doing an ELS, then you are paying a bit more for a 1236T, maybe consider the PM-1127 or 1228 with variable speed, D1-4 chuck mounts and add an ELS. Might also look at this one, which is both and ELS, DRO and semi-CNC https://www.rocketronics.de/en/els/
> 
> If going with the 1236T, probably just deal with the current Norton Gearbox and see how it goes. One issue with doing metric threads on lathes with imperial leadscrews is for the most part the half-nut needs to remain engaged through the threading process. I do quite a bit of metric threading, so I use a proximity stop system which stops the lathe at the same position when repeating the thread. I thread at 250-450+ RPM and just not quick enough to do it otherwise. My current lathe has a universal gearbox so no change gears for metric, although I had the PM-1340GT previously and made due with the manual gearbox change gears for metric. Quite a few of the metric threads are handled by the same gear set, so not that big a deal if you are not threading frequently. When doing imperial threading there are no change gears.
> 
> ...



I want to tag on that changing gears (which again is rarely needed) take a whole of 2-3 minutes. You do it as part of the job setup and leave it like that until you need them set differently. For me, it is faster than dialing the part in on a 4 jaw chuck.


----------



## svideo (Dec 14, 2020)

That's an important point, I've never used one of these things so I'm basing everything on watching a lot of youtubes and reading here on the forums.  Gear changing looked like a PITA but maybe I'm overstating the problem.  I'm back to thinking something along the lines of the 1228 makes more sense, and if I feel like it's necessary I can hack in an ELS at some later point.


----------



## macardoso (Dec 14, 2020)

svideo said:


> That's an important point, I've never used one of these things so I'm basing everything on watching a lot of youtubes and reading here on the forums.  Gear changing looked like a PITA but maybe I'm overstating the problem.  I'm back to thinking something along the lines of the 1228 makes more sense, and if I feel like it's necessary I can hack in an ELS at some later point.



I think if you need to change gears for every different feed rate or thread (as is on the smallest lathes), it will become annoying quickly. I bet this is where the ELS became popular with hobbyists. With a Norton style quick change gearbox, you get all the inch threads and feeds you need without changing any gears. Only when you need a metric thread or strange half size inch thread do you need to change out 2 gears. I do a mix of metric and imperial work and I still only need to change gears a dozen times a year.


----------



## ttabbal (Dec 14, 2020)

Yeah, if I only had to swap gears for metric/inch, I wouldn't have done the ELS. I do a whole project in one system or the other, so picking one is good enough. It would be rare for me to want to swap in the middle as you are more likely to make mistakes that way. And who wants a part with both metric and inch threads? yuck. I'm just making things for myself, so I can modify the print to match up if I run into something like that. 

Machines that require you to swap the whole gear set to change between threads and feeds, basically everything smaller without a full gearbox, take longer to set up the gears than a couple of minutes. I got it down to about 10min if everything goes right. If I try to go faster, I would end up making a mistake and mess up the thread pitch (ALWAYS do an initial scratch pass and check). That doesn't sound like much till you're doing it for the fourth time on a part. 

On PM that's everything smaller than a 1236. Other brands are different. I had good luck with using taps most of the time and doing most thread cutting at the end of a part. That doesn't always work though. And sometimes it meant having to dial in a part with the 4 jaw to get the required concentricity. And it's easy for me to overlook dies as mine are garbage HF die-shaped things. Get good ones and they become a good option for smaller sizes. 

I've seen a couple of threads now where a hobby user thought the swapping would be fine, and ended up hating it. Others don't seem to mind. At the end of the day, everyone just has to decide for themselves what works for them. That can be difficult at the beginning when you don't know what you don't know. And it's easy for us to spend your money!


----------



## martik777 (Dec 14, 2020)

A good workaround to changing gears for different feed rates is to attach a variable speed motor to your leadscrew usually on the tail end. Then you can totally disengage the gear train


----------



## svideo (Dec 14, 2020)

mksj said:


> One issue with doing metric threads on lathes with imperial leadscrews is for the most part the half-nut needs to remain engaged through the threading process. I do quite a bit of metric threading, so I use a proximity stop system which stops the lathe at the same position when repeating the thread. I thread at 250-450+ RPM and just not quick enough to do it otherwise. My current lathe has a universal gearbox so no change gears for metric, although I had the PM-1340GT previously and made due with the manual gearbox change gears for metric. Quite a few of the metric threads are handled by the same gear set, so not that big a deal if you are not threading frequently. When doing imperial threading there are no change gears.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This post was confusing as heck to me, so I started digging into the issue and I think I have a much better understanding of the problem thanks to this video and then your solution utilizing an inductive prox sensor.  I just wanted to say that is a pretty damn interesting setup and I'll probably be bugging you sometime later about doing the same.  Thanks for all of this, it's great input!


----------

