# New Mill and Lathe



## BigCasino (May 20, 2019)

Ok here it is, been a welder for 40 ish years. Going to get a new Mill and Lathe, have 0 experience in this area ( my fabrication has always been done with torch and grinder ). My budget to get this rolling is around 10 grand. Thinking about PM 30MV Mill and PM 1236 Lathe. Is this a good starting point. Don’t have any real project size in mind, other than the things I’ve done in the past so they don’t seem to be that large. I know I will need a vise for Mill, so 5” or 6”. PM sells some or should I be looking elsewhere. Would see a rotary vise as being useful, 6” or 8”, and what brand should I be looking at? 
PM 30 MV DRO $2900
PM 1236 PP,DRO $4500 
This leaves a little for vise, rotary, and some tooling in my budget. Is this a good starting point. Any advise appreciated. Thanks


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## tweinke (May 20, 2019)

To me your choices seem good. I've had good customer service from QMT. I would be looking at there premium vises because I think a good vise would save frustration. Lets see what the others here have to say. Oh and remember were here to help you blow your budget !


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## stioc (May 20, 2019)

Excellent choice getting the DROs!! Buy the biggest machines you can afford (money and room wise). Having said that those are good choices to make useful everyday sized parts but that can be subjective - for e.g. too small if you're planning to turn 17" brake rotors or flywheels as a hobby. The 13x40 or 14x40 "GT" editions are popular as they're Taiwan made and much higher precision/quality from what I've seen. However, the Grizzly G4003G is very popular with the guns crowd so if the PM 12x36 is the same you can't go wrong with it.

I haven't used my rotary table much (since I converted my mill to a CNC so I don't have a need to do arcs and curves with a rotary. I have a 8" rotary table, it's a bear to move. I think I'd be ok with a smaller one personally. And personally I think I'd use a dividing head more than the rotary table (for cutting gears/splines etc). Sometimes you can get a combo/kit to convert a rotary table to a dividing head.

Just a few random thoughts from someone who was in your shoes a few years ago and went with a smaller lathe due to the size restrictions.


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## T Bredehoft (May 20, 2019)

I have both a mill and a Lathe (both smaller than your choice) from PM.  As a retired tool maker I'm pleased with the machines and the service from Matt and his people. You will be pleased with their wares.


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## matthewsx (May 20, 2019)

If I was doing this I'd stretch the budget and get a knee mill.


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## Winegrower (May 20, 2019)

I have always been happy that I bought a Bridgeport clone, not a bench type mill.    It’s just more satisfying in a hobby to not have to fight limited equipment.   If you have to fight a Bridgeport, you’re not a hobby guy anymore.

And as further proof of my point   I just upgraded lathes from  10” Logan, which was a fine lathe, to a 2500 pound Takisawa TSL-800D.   It makes working in steel about like aluminum or brass on the Logan.   Or really, maybe more like Delrin.   It’s pretty amazing to me.   And actually does not take up much more space!

And with your budget, I think you can save money and get more capable equipment than proposed.

But I admit, it’s much easier to make a few calls and have the stuff show up at your door.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 20, 2019)

Agreed - with that budget and a bit of legwork, you can get very good machines by buying used. Of course you have to wait a bit to get a feel for the market, and you have to be capable of determining the value of a machine (though really, just having the owner demonstrate its use on some metal will suffice).

If I were buying new, I would probably get the largest, most sturdy lathe possible, even if that means skimping on the mill a bit. This is partly because you can find ways to do the bigger milling jobs in a lathe, and partly because with the price point you're taking about, a knee mill is a bit out of range, so you're going to be skimping on the mill regardless.


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## Swerdk (May 20, 2019)

I own the 1236 and though mechanically it is okay. The exterior workmanship from China is disgusting. At the time the 1236 did not have a option to get from Taiwan $800 more for same machine but it would of been worth it. The Chinese version had paint chipping everywhere . You may want to get a Taiwan PP 1340 ( I believe that’s correct maybe 1440). You can manufacture gun parts. Weeeee
For mill I absolutely love PM 935 fully loaded. From Taiwan - got it —well worth it. You can get it stripped down with no DRO and manual levers and just add as your wife allows you 


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## mikey (May 20, 2019)

BigCasino said:


> Don’t have any real project size in mind, other than the things I’ve done in the past so they don’t seem to be that large.



The quickest way to waste money is to buy the wrong machine tools and the tooling that goes along with them. If you ask what to buy on a machining forum you will inevitably be told to buy the biggest machines you can buy or afford or fit; this will be from folks who mean well but have zero idea of what your needs are or whether you live in an apartment, a house or on a farm. 

You determine what suits your needs by realistically *defining* your needs. I know this might seem nebulous but at least set a limit as to the size of work you are likely to do. Why buy a 14" lathe when the largest piece you're likely to turn is under 1.5" OD or under a foot in length, which is what 95% of hobby guys turn? A knee mill is great but not really necessary if you're only making model engines. If you are not sure what to get, or are not even sure you'll enjoy machining as a hobby, then you might consider visiting one of the HM members close to you and talk it over with him/them so you can view, touch and maybe run their machines. 

Every single one of us can tell you what to buy but none of us are you. Personally, I would listen to you. Once you decide or come up with some choices and need opinions on them then we can really be of value to you.


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## markba633csi (May 20, 2019)

Precision Matthews is a good company, if I was in the market for Asian machines I'd buy from them
Good choices


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## BigCasino (May 20, 2019)

Yes I understand good intentions, and bigger bigger bigger. I have a all in budget, and it’s a max 10G. Was basically wondering if the two machine were a good starting point or not ( I know there’s better ). Still haven’t seen any comments on vise or rotary. Thanks everyone.


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## wrmiller (May 20, 2019)

I have two PM machines (I've had 3 total), the 1340GT and 935TS and love them. PM is great to deal with if a issue ever arises. And I don't know of another vendor who offers warranties like PM does.

I do pistolsmithing and general hobby stuff and if the PM30 had been available when I decided to upgrade my bench mill, I'd have bought it in a heartbeat. I believe it to be a good compromise of cost/size/capability for what I do. The 935 knee mill is easier to do some operations on, but I could have saved a bunch of money that could have gone for other things had the PM30 been available. I know of custom pistolsmiths building $4-6k 1911s on bench mills. And while I can think of a few things that I'd find easier to set up on a mill with a larger table, I manage OK with what I have.

I don't need a 1340 lathe for pistolsmithing from a size perspective, but I wanted a quality Taiwan-made lathe as I have need of sub-thou dimensions on some things so I 'bit the bullet' so to speak and went for the best lathe I could afford.

I run a 5" mill vise on my 9x35 table and find it to be a good size for what I do. I have been told that the Homge vise that Matt sells is pretty good stuff, so that is what I'd get if I was shoping for a vise for a PM30.

I also have a 6" rotary table that can be a bit small for some things, but again I manage. Every time I think I want a larger rotary table I go pick up my BS-1 dividing head and quickly change my mind. I'm pretty sure I could have gotten by with a BS-0. Same thing happens when I swap my 8" PBA set-rite chuck for my 5" collet chuck. Should have bought a 6" set-tru... 

Sometimes bigger isn't better IMO, but those who assume you can't determine what work envelope you need/want will try to tell you differently. Oh, and let us know when you get your machines, as we love pics of everybody's new toys.


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## Chewy (May 20, 2019)

Good choice of machines.  I have the PM-30MV with DRO and love it.  Have 4" Kurt vise and it is OK for 90 percent of what I do.  The rest of the time I wish it was a 6".  Keeping my eye out for one. you will need a good rotary table.  I went with Grizzly H7527 with dividing plates.  I like the 4 slot table better than 3. 

Before you lock in the 1236 Look at the PM 1228VF-LB.  It is around the same price and size.  Only weighs 1/2 the weight, which may be a consideration and is variable speed. I got that instead of the 1236 along with 4 jaw chuck and drill chuck and Quick Change Tool Post.  Love it. Skipped the DRO on the lathe and used money for tooling.  Going old school with Dial Indicators. Google Frank Hoose on you tube for a multi part series on the 1228.  Some good ideas that applies to either lathe. 

You set a budget, but that will only get you machines that spin around.  The tooling will add several thousand dollars. I retired 3 monthes ago and started my shop over the last couple of years.  Probably around $15K all together  and I am looking for a surface grinder.  The machines will only turn out work as good as the tooling, indicators and material you use.  Right off the bat you will need a really good machinist level.  I got a Starrett 6" for $45 on EBAY.  The lathe MUST be straight, level and not twisted or you will be cutting all sorts of weird things if you go over several inches long. The mill will run pretty good right until it falls over on it's side. It has to be trammed and that will cost you at least $50 for a cheapo indicator and collet to hold it.  And that is before you cut your first piece of metal.  You need collet sets, end mills, HSS bits (and a grinder to sharpen them), fly cutter, 123 blocks, parallels, dial indicators, micrometers, drills, reams, Jo Blocks,and the list goes on.

Bought a lot of Shars tooling. Pretty decent stuff for price. But the Mic's are Brown and Sharp, Starrett and Mitutoyo.  Go with HSS mills and bits.  Carbide Insert is much easier  but EXPENSIVE.  EBAY is your new best friend. Reserch everything 3 times and check the blogs. Let it sit there untill you absolutly need it or it shows up at a price you can't turn down. Don't throw ANY metal away.  Let it sit there for awhile.  You will be surprised what you can make with it.

Think of it like a welder.  You get a good quality machine for $3-4K and you burn $300 in rods each month.

Happy Chip Making!!!!


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## jdedmon91 (May 20, 2019)

I’d second the mill comment. My first mill was a PM 25. The service I received from PM was
outstanding. However I out grew the mill. Really looked into the biggest bench mill. After figuring up the cost I decided to hunt a used knee mill. My Lagun fully equipped after I set it up was a bit over 6k but I’m am satisfied with it. 


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## tweinke (May 20, 2019)

Just a thought, being you do not have specific ideas what you will be doing on the machines you mentioned might be a thought to cut out a cardboard model of the mill table and do the same with the lathe bed then sit down and think about possible work you have done or may do and see how it fits the machines. Its what I did just to see the size prospective of the machines. I guess it made me get familiar with them because I had to look up the sizes of the parts and there travels. Kind of gave me a hands on idea of what to expect without trying to find someone with like equipment. Better you would be to visit someone that had that size or there about machines.


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## BigCasino (May 21, 2019)

Would the PM 1236 T be worth the extra $, thanks for all the comments


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## mikey (May 21, 2019)

I would take a Taiwanese lathe over a Chinese lathe any day. The 1236T has a thicker walled spindle running in precision Nachi bearings; this will tell over the years. @Titanium Knurler and @wildo have this lathe; maybe they'll chime in.


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## Bill_729 (May 21, 2019)

BigCasino said:


> Any advise appreciated. Thanks



While you are thinking over your options, consider spending $50-100 on relevant books, and browse this forum of course. Read a couple of instruction manuals.   For instance, you can learn the best way (for you) to move in and level machinery.  Consider whether you might prefer a 3-phase lathe, and the reason why.  Do you know what collets are and what your options for using them are?  Do you know the difference between drilling, boring and reaming?  Do you know why the compound is set to 29.5-30 degrees when turning threads? Your machinery won't be as smart as you, it's going to expect you to tell it what to do! : )  If your budget allows, you'll probably be more pleased if you buy Taiwanese instead of Chinese.  I'm only about 6 months ahead of you on this "adventure", but I'm growing more sophisticated in it by the week, as you will (if your statement that you have 0-experience in this area is true).  Enjoy..

Bill_729


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## Al 1 (May 21, 2019)

BC,    Machines look nice in catalogs.   Mikey has a good point.  Try and visit a machine machine shop in your area. There are a lot of friendly machinists that will show you around their shop.  This can give you a better idea of what to purchase.  Al


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## shooter123456 (May 21, 2019)

mikey said:


> The quickest way to waste money is to buy the wrong machine tools and the tooling that goes along with them. If you ask what to buy on a machining forum you will inevitably be told to buy the biggest machines you can buy or afford or fit; this will be from folks who mean well but have zero idea of what your needs are or whether you live in an apartment, a house or on a farm.
> 
> You determine what suits your needs by realistically *defining* your needs. I know this might seem nebulous but at least set a limit as to the size of work you are likely to do. Why buy a 14" lathe when the largest piece you're likely to turn is under 1.5" OD or under a foot in length, which is what 95% of hobby guys turn? A knee mill is great but not really necessary if you're only making model engines. If you are not sure what to get, or are not even sure you'll enjoy machining as a hobby, then you might consider visiting one of the HM members close to you and talk it over with him/them so you can view, touch and maybe run their machines.
> 
> Every single one of us can tell you what to buy but none of us are you. Personally, I would listen to you. Once you decide or come up with some choices and need opinions on them then we can really be of value to you.


I think I agree mostly, though the part about not buying a 14" lathe when you generally turn under 1.5" diameter and 12" in length seemed like slightly flawed logic.  By applying that, the only thing people really need is a 7x14" lathe because it will fit both of those dimensions.  The difference is a 14" will be heavier, stronger, and more rigid, allowing you to cut those smaller pieces faster and more accurately, and when that task that comes up needing 13" diameter, a 2" spindle bore, or 36" between centers, you are already equipped to handle it. 

I have one of the smaller machines (1030) and even though it is rare that I turn something more than 1.5" OD, there are several things I wanted to do but couldn't because they needed something a bit larger to fit.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 21, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> By applying that, the only thing people really need is a 7x14" lathe because it will fit both of those dimensions.  The difference is a 14" will be heavier, stronger, and more rigid, allowing you to cut those smaller pieces faster and more accurately, and when that task that comes up needing 13" diameter, a 2" spindle bore, or 36" between centers, you are already equipped to handle it.



The same sort of thinking made me purchase a 7x16 lathe from Micromark when I was starting out. I thought it would work out of the box, as would the various accessories (cutters, toolposts, etc) sold for it. This turned out to not be the case, and a few months of reading made it apparent that every tool bit has to be custom ground, the mini-lathes need to have carriage locks and the like added, the gibs have to be machined or even replaced, and so forth. All of which is problematic when you're just starting out and have access to only that unreliable and imprecise machine you've purchased.

I took the plunge and got a used 14x40 with a bunch of tooling, and you know what, everything worked out of the box (well, upon receipt, as there was obviously no actual box). So far I have only been making stuff in the 1" diameter,  12" length range and smaller, but I came across a long 3" diameter brass rod and hey, now I have a cannon project in my future. Because, you know, I _can_.

So, yeah - size does matter, and buying new doesn't necessarily get you the ready-to-run machine that justifies buying new in the first place.


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## matthewsx (May 21, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> The same sort of thinking made me purchase a 7x16 lathe from Micromark when I was starting out. I thought it would work out of the box, as would the various accessories (cutters, toolposts, etc) sold for it.





shooter123456 said:


> The difference is a 14" will be heavier, stronger, and more rigid, allowing you to cut those smaller pieces faster and more accurately, and when that task that comes up needing 13" diameter, a 2" spindle bore, or 36" between centers, you are already equipped to handle it.




These are both great points. I used to sell racing go-karts and the most important part of the job was getting the kart set up for the driver and teaching the crew chief (dad) how things worked. Occasionally I'd see someone who bought something sight unseen and watching them struggle was hard, especially if they were the kind of person who wouldn't take helpful advice.

The OP has already taken the right first step IMHO, asking questions from people who have been there and done that. A few months back I decided to refurbish my 100-year-old Seneca Falls lathe. I only paid $300 for it back when I had the kart business and it was great for doing engine rebuilds, made me a bunch of money so I didn't figure it owed me anything. I installed a QCTP, new 3 phase motor with VFD, bought collets, tachometer, etc. Knowing what I know now I should have sold it and bought something newer that will turn more than 340rpm. Don't get me wrong, it serves my needs now, but for not much more than I have into it I could have a bigger machine (one that would even still fit in the same floorspace) that I won't need to upgrade eventually.

IMHO, the best deals on machines probably come from the retired hobbyist who is upgrading or better yet selling out. If you can check out the machine under power and talk with the person who's been running it you'll get a good feel for what it can do. Often these older machines have had the bugs already worked out of them, unlike buying new where that's your job. If you're set on buying new then go with a reputable dealer that stands behind their products. Taiwan made machines are probably worth the extra $$$, Chinese built should always be considered a "kit" where you'll need to at the very least disassemble, clean and properly lubricate.

Cheers,

John


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## Aaron_W (May 21, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> The same sort of thinking made me purchase a 7x16 lathe from Micromark when I was starting out. I thought it would work out of the box, as would the various accessories (cutters, toolposts, etc) sold for it. This turned out to not be the case, and a few months of reading made it apparent that every tool bit has to be custom ground, the mini-lathes need to have carriage locks and the like added, the gibs have to be machined or even replaced, and so forth. All of which is problematic when you're just starting out and have access to only that unreliable and imprecise machine you've purchased.
> 
> I took the plunge and got a used 14x40 with a bunch of tooling, and you know what, everything worked out of the box (well, upon receipt, as there was obviously no actual box). So far I have only been making stuff in the 1" diameter,  12" length range and smaller, but I came across a long 3" diameter brass rod and hey, now I have a cannon project in my future. Because, you know, I _can_.
> 
> So, yeah - size does matter, and buying new doesn't necessarily get you the ready-to-run machine that justifies buying new in the first place.




I've only fondled the knobs of a HF 7x14 in the store, and read about them here but I've come to the conclusion that the 7x lathes are probably about the worst lathes a new person could buy. Built as cheaply as possible, they require a lot of work to get going, and even then are only marginally satisfactory. 

For a small lathe it seems like one would be much better off skipping the 7x and look at a Chinese 8x16, 9x20, Sherline, Taig or a used 6-10" American lathe. Of course all of those come with a much higher price tag than the 7x's $500-600. 
I can't speak for the others, but excepting some minor assembly my Sherline did work right out of the box which is good because I had no idea what I was doing. Used lathes of course are something of a gamble for a new person with little ability to judge condition.


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## mikey (May 21, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> I think I agree mostly, though the part about not buying a 14" lathe when you generally turn under 1.5" diameter and 12" in length seemed like slightly flawed logic.  By applying that, the only thing people really need is a 7x14" lathe because it will fit both of those dimensions.  The difference is a 14" will be heavier, stronger, and more rigid, allowing you to cut those smaller pieces faster and more accurately, and when that task that comes up needing 13" diameter, a 2" spindle bore, or 36" between centers, you are already equipped to handle it.
> 
> I have one of the smaller machines (1030) and even though it is rare that I turn something more than 1.5" OD, there are several things I wanted to do but couldn't because they needed something a bit larger to fit.



You totally missed the point, which is that the person buying the lathe has to determine what his needs are so that machines of the appropriate size are chosen. Almost every single new guy looking for a machine fails to do this, and this is the most important step in choosing the right stuff. I am not saying he shouldn't get a 14" lathe or a 7X lathe. I am saying that no matter how well meaning the forum is, we are NOT clairvoyant and anything we say is of little value without some guidance from the OP. The onus of choosing the size of the machine does not fall on the forum; it cannot.

Every single one of us will run into situations that require a larger machine than we currently have; you could have a 20X lathe and still run out of room. You have to draw a line somewhere and it has to be practical. As a hobby guy, the vast majority of the work we do will fit in a 11-12" lathe ... but not all. In that case, you either cannot do it or you have to take it to someone with a larger lathe. I have seen this come up time and time again, where some forum member says, "Yeah, I ran out of room a few times and I regret buying the lathe that has met 99.9% of my needs ..." That, Sir, is flawed logic.


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## stioc (May 21, 2019)

But @mikey  while you make a valid point the problem is as a newbie most of the time you won't know what your future needs will be. I didn't really know and I still don't know even after I've had my lathe for over a year. I sure am glad I didn't get a smaller one, in fact, I regret I didn't get a 12x36 but it was a big jump in price at the time.

Based on my limited experience I'll say that a 12x is a very good size as most general work can be done on it. If you can get a 14x go for it. Anything bigger than a 14x is a bit too big for a home shop but that's just my personal opinion.


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## shooter123456 (May 21, 2019)

mikey said:


> You totally missed the point, which is that the person buying the lathe has to determine what his needs are so that machines of the appropriate size are chosen. Almost every single new guy looking for a machine fails to do this, and this is the most important step in choosing the right stuff. I am not saying he shouldn't get a 14" lathe or a 7X lathe. I am saying that no matter how well meaning the forum is, we are NOT clairvoyant and anything we say is of little value without some guidance from the OP. The onus of choosing the size of the machine does not fall on the forum; it cannot.
> 
> Every single one of us will run into situations that require a larger machine than we currently have; you could have a 20X lathe and still run out of room. You have to draw a line somewhere and it has to be practical. As a hobby guy, the vast majority of the work we do will fit in a 11-12" lathe ... but not all. In that case, you either cannot do it or you have to take it to someone with a larger lathe. I have seen this come up time and time again, where some forum member says, "Yeah, I ran out of room a few times and I regret buying the lathe that has met 99.9% of my needs ..." That, Sir, is flawed logic.


I think we agree on most of the points, we just disagree as to the definition of "Appropriate size".  Just because a machine will fit the majority of the work you want to do and be able to complete the job, that does not make the machine an appropriate size.  I agree that only the person looking to buy a machine can decide what they will be using it for.  I am just of the opinion that a larger machine will do everything the smaller ones will do, just better and faster.  So even if you plan to only work on smaller and shorter parts, a 13x36 or 14x40 can still be an appropriate size machine. 

I see that bit about someone wishing they got a larger machine even though it meets most of their needs as well.  The part that you left out though is that though it meets their needs, they have to work a lot harder to make it do so, where if they just got a slightly larger one, that work would have been much easier.


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## Aaron_W (May 21, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> I think we agree on most of the points, we just disagree as to the definition of "Appropriate size".  Just because a machine will fit the majority of the work you want to do and be able to complete the job, that does not make the machine an appropriate size.  I agree that only the person looking to buy a machine can decide what they will be using it for.  I am just of the opinion that a larger machine will do everything the smaller ones will do, just better and faster.  So even if you plan to only work on smaller and shorter parts, a 13x36 or 14x40 can still be an appropriate size machine.
> 
> I see that bit about someone wishing they got a larger machine even though it meets most of their needs as well.  The part that you left out though is that though it meets their needs, they have to work a lot harder to make it do so, where if they just got a slightly larger one, that work would have been much easier.



What seems to be frequently overlooked is the requirements for a larger lathe. Most 12" + lathes require 240v, some 3 phase (VFD). They weigh 1/2 ton+ so require a truck and special equipment / skills to move and are a lot of fun to get into a basement or spare bedroom shop.

That is a lot of added cost and work if an 8", 9" or smaller 10" lathe would meet their needs. Two people can load that into the back of a Honda Civic and set it up in a spare bedroom, or small basement shop and run it off a standard 120v 15 or 20A circuit.

Tooling for a larger lathe also costs and weighs more, sometimes substantially more. The 6" chuck on my Logan weighs about as much as my whole Sherline lathe.


Nothing wrong with a lathe bigger than you need, but they do have their own set of drawbacks when a much smaller lathe meets the need and that always seems to get left out. Not everybody who decides to buy a lathe already has a well outfitted shop.
Starting with a small lathe and upgrading as your needs change is a pretty safe bet. If you buy used you can almost certainly get your money back, and even buying new it is a few hundred dollars lost (Grizzly 9x19 $1200 new, used they frequently are for sale at $600-800). They are also easy to shove to the back of your garage, or hall closet and forget about if turning metal turns out not to be your thing (which accounts for the practically new appearance of many small lathes on CL). Not so much of an option with a lathe half the size of a car.


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## mikey (May 21, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> I am just of the opinion that a larger machine will do everything the smaller ones will do, just better and faster.  So even if you plan to only work on smaller and shorter parts, a 13x36 or 14x40 can still be an appropriate size machine.



Hmm, I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one. As an example, I need to turn a thumbscrew from tool steel that has a 1/4" long threaded section for a 4-48, class 3 thread to fit a hardened indicator clamp on my Murkens surface gauge. I'm pretty sure I can make that a lot faster and easier and better on my little Sherline lathe than I can using my Emco Super 11. Almost every small precision part I make is made on that Sherline lathe because it is easier and more precise so better and faster? No, I don't think this is the case for everyone, although I do respect the opinon of those of you who think so.



shooter123456 said:


> I see that bit about someone wishing they got a larger machine even though it meets most of their needs as well.  The part that you left out though is that though it meets their needs, they have to work a lot harder to make it do so, where if they just got a slightly larger one, that work would have been much easier.



I don't see why they have to work harder but I think I understand what you're saying. If you have a cheap Chinese 10" lathe that struggles to take a 0.100" depth of cut in steel then yes, a 13" lathe will get it done easier. But what if you have an 11" lathe that can take double that depth of cut without slowing down? Doesn't it come down to the quality and design of the lathe in question? Not all lathes of a given size capacity are created equal. A Monarch 10EE, a Hardinge HLV-H, or even the lowly Emco Super 11 will match most 12 or 13" lathes in capability other than the size of the work piece. 

In the world of machine tool, there is no one size fits all. Nor do all hobby machinists have the same needs, space or budget. All we can do is choose as wisely as we can, knowing that if things do not work out as expected then hopefully the next time we will have a better idea of what we really need.


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## davidpbest (May 21, 2019)

If you would like some unvarnished perspective, PM me.   Happy to share my decades of experience - just no on public forums like this.


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## 7635tools (May 21, 2019)

Purchasing the machines is usually the cheapest part. It’s all the rest of the tooling that’s cost the money. 


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## BigCasino (May 22, 2019)

All good points I think. The type of things I can think of in the past would be 2to 6” round by 10 to 20” long, that being said, I’m a welder so I’m use to fabing the ends and welding them to something else. I’m sure my taste will grow. Space for machines isn’t a problem (30x40). Moving equipment isn’t a problem ( have a couple of 100 hp tractors). My equipment right now isn’t cheap stuff so not really looking to be cheap now but really had a budget in mind. I hear all the bigger is better, but trying to put size and need in perspective, if someone asked about starting out welding as a hobby I wouldn’t send in the direction of bigger is always better. I have several sizes of mig welders, pulse aluminum, tig, couple gas arc welders, plasma cutter, torches, track torches, pipe Beverlers, metal miter saws, drill presses, band saw, cold saw, grinders of every size, but all this might be overkill for the beginner (you think). So if asked the question I would probably send that guy out to get a small mig welder 220volt running 023 wire and he would learn a lot real fast, after that he would probably be able to answer more questions himself. I understand the tooling needs will never end. So all that being said, my original post I was basically wanting to know if the PM 1236 was a good starting point or maybe it should be a little different. Like I said I don’t know anything about lathes or mills, but I do know vast amounts about all types of materials. Pretty sure my attitude about machining will be like every thing else and that is  I Got This. And if it isn’t working I’ll learn to manipulate it. I do appreciate all the responses, just trying to explain..Later


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## BigCasino (May 22, 2019)

davidpbest said:


> If you would like some unvarnished perspective, PM me.   Happy to share my decades of experience - just no on public forums like this.


Thanks , I’ll do hat in a day or so when I can slow down a little.


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## Bill_729 (May 22, 2019)

BigCasino said:


> So all that being said, my original post I was basically wanting to know if the PM 1236 was a good starting point or maybe it should be a little different.



How many horsepower do you estimate you'll need/want (I see PM1236 is 2HP, 1PH)?  The spindle speed, feed speed, and depth of cut will be limited by the horsepower of your machine and depends upon a number of factors such as the size and type of material you are cutting. The details, along with examples illustrating the calculations, are carefully described in Chapter 7 of Moltrecht's book, "Machine Shop Practice", Vol. 1 (of 2).   Professional machinists, and I would assume professional welders, care about speed. Do you? Either way, I think this is a very good book and it can be had cheap. Admittedly, it was last published in 1981, so maybe there is something that discusses this in a more convenient format.  But if so, I haven't found it--like I said earlier, I'm only 6 months ahead of you on this endeaver. Anyway, I hope this helps explain why so many asked about "how" you'll use your machine.  To people using a lathe to make money, money=time=speed. If you are in this category, it might not be the best choice.  I think your analogy with welding is very good--you have a lot of welding equipment for a reason. I looked at the  the PM1236T. The website advises, "for heavier daily use, please select PM-1340GT"--as it has "hardened gears") .  Now you have to also ask yourself, do you need/want a lathe with hardened gears (they don't cover that in the book)?  It appears $6400 will get you one having a good stand, delivered to your door--DRO extra...   So I guess the last (rhetorical) question to ask is about shopping: Do you have more time, or money? Hope that helps!

Bill_729


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## ThinWoodsman (May 22, 2019)

BigCasino said:


> So all that being said, my original post I was basically wanting to know if the PM 1236 was a good starting point or maybe it should be a little different. Like I said I don’t know anything about lathes or mills, but I do know vast amounts about all types of materials. Pretty sure my attitude about machining will be like every thing else and that is  I Got This. And if it isn’t working I’ll learn to manipulate it.



The machines you selected are quite capable. Being used to working with metal already, you shouldn't have much trouble. I do still suggest you at least look at what's available on the used market in your area. matthewsx captured the idea quite well, above: "Often these older machines have had the bugs already worked out of them, unlike buying new where that's your job." It may be that you find a fantastic deal from a seller who will even teach you how to operate the thing. And if you don't, hey, buying new is a great fallback option to have.


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## BigCasino (May 22, 2019)

I’ve looked at used, most seem to be as big as my truck, or look like they were sitting outside in a shed for 15 years, or just an utter piece of junk that someone thinks is worth 10 grand. And it might be but I’m not looking for something like that. Maybe I’d be more interested in old iron if I knew more but not right now. 1340 GT seems to keep coming up, with all good reviews, but you said speed? It still has only 2 hp. Is the 90 rpm on the bottom side a problem? So looks like I jumped about 2 grand in machines, store of my life.


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## BigCasino (May 22, 2019)

When you look at the 134GT with a few accessories the price comes out about the same as 1440BV. Now which one? OMG


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## BigCasino (May 22, 2019)

What type of QCTP comes with these, or should you do otherwise?


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## matthewsx (May 22, 2019)

BigCasino said:


> I’ve looked at used, most seem to be as big as my truck, or look like they were sitting outside in a shed for 15 years, or just an utter piece of junk that someone thinks is worth 10 grand. And it might be but I’m not looking for something like that. Maybe I’d be more interested in old iron if I knew more but not right now. 1340 GT seems to keep coming up, with all good reviews, but you said speed? It still has only 2 hp. Is the 90 rpm on the bottom side a problem? So looks like I jumped about 2 grand in machines, store of my life.



Finding the right machine is a challenge regardless of if you buy new or used. The difference is buying used gives you the option (sometimes) of trying it out first. If I had the budget and was buying new I would definitely go with Taiwan over China. I've heard they do make good machine tools  in China, just not exported here. Maybe that will change with how the tariffs effect the market but most likely it'll make Taiwan more affordable in comparison.

Whatever you do take your time because it's a decision you will likely live with quite a while. There's nothing like buying a new toy to bring out all the great used deals after you've spent your money

Cheers,

John


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## stioc (May 22, 2019)

BigCasino said:


> When you look at the 134GT with a few accessories the price comes out about the same as 1440BV. Now which one? OMG



Yeah they're priced like cars, once you add in the options you really want the price is about what the bigger/nicer one is going for. You start adding in a few things to that and you realize the next one up isn't much more...on and on it goes until you reach your financial or space limitation.


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## StevSmar (May 24, 2019)

Some good opinions, which I’ve also found helpful.

I’m currently running a simulation on what the size of a 36” bed lathe is like...:


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## rogerl (May 25, 2019)

_It looks like your tail stock is a little high. _


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## Kiwi Canuck (May 25, 2019)

Hello Big Casino and welcome to the forum.

The PM30V and PM1236 machines you are considering will certainly work very well once setup and you'll have fun learning on them, the DRO's are awesome to have as well.

If after using the machines for a year or so and you find they are too small or the finished work you are producing is not fine enough (not likely though) then sell them and upgrade, you will have much more knowledge about what your needs are by then.

Unlike cars the resale value is excellent on these machines when in near new condition and most of your tooling and accessories will work with your new machine(s).

I came from using a drill press and hand tools to buying a PM935 Mill and PM 1340GT Lathe and love having the use of quality machines that will produce a very nice finished product. I had a very flexible budget, started out looking at 3-1 machines for $3,000 and I've spent north of $20K with no regrets.

Everything I've worked on so far, would have been possible on the PM1236 and PM30V. 

The machines are only one part of the equation, the tooling and work holding are as important as to which machines you buy.

I'm the limiting factor in the quality at the moment because it takes work to set up these machines, the learning curve has been steep when it comes to work holding and machining steps.

I bought the 5" Homge Vise from PM but are now looking at buying (2) Kurt 6" vises because I often mill long (and wide) pieces and the Kurt vises open much wider than the Homge vise I currently have.
But can I justify them at about $850 CAD each, I certainly can when I ruin a piece I've worked on for 2 hours when it starts chattering on a final cut because the hang over is too far from the supported vise holding it.

I bought a 6" Vertex Rotary Table on sale, but have not used it yet but glad I got the 6" as it's pretty damn heavy, I imagine the 8" would be at my limit for lifting by hand, I'll also buy an index kit for the RT or a dedicated indexer from Vertex as they are fairly well made.

To sum up my experience so far is, no matter what I knew before buying my machines, it's the setup of your machines and putting in your time to gain experience that determines the quality of the finished product and cutting corners in any area will likely be the limiting factor in weather you have fun doing this or become frustrated and have a negative/bad experience.


Cheers,

David


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## BigCasino (May 26, 2019)

Kiwi Canuck said:


> Hello Big Casino and welcome to the forum.
> 
> The PM30V and PM1236 machines you are considering will certainly work very well once setup and you'll have fun learning on them, the DRO's are awesome to have as well.
> 
> ...


I’m


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## BigCasino (May 26, 2019)

Kiwi Canuck said:


> Hello Big Casino and welcome to the forum.
> 
> The PM30V and PM1236 machines you are considering will certainly work very well once setup and you'll have fun learning on them, the DRO's are awesome to have as well.
> 
> ...


I’m leaning towards the 1340GT because I never see a negative comment on them, still thinking the 30MV. Good to know I’ll be needing 6” vise. Now doing research on 3 phase with vfd, not sure about that yet. Hard to see ay calm and do more research. Thanks for the reply.


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## matthewsx (May 26, 2019)

Have you looked at this thread?









						PM1340 - the Best & Jacobs Full Custom Edition
					

It’s been several months since I took delivery of, and posted about my PM1340 lathe.   It's time for an update since I’m nearing completion of what started as a straight forward VFD conversion project, and then took on a life of it’s own and led to a substantial customization of the stock PM1340...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## matthewsx (May 26, 2019)

Yes, the VFD is a worthwhile addition. 

It makes it so much easier to dial in the right speed, night and day on my 100-year-old Star.

Cheers,

John


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## shell70634 (May 27, 2019)

BC,
I'm very new to machining and bought a PM1340GT.  I picked it because of the length I can cut , The spindle bore size, and the accuracy it's capable of.   I live about 50 miles East of Jasper.  You are welcome to come play with it if you get down this way.
PM me for my number if you would like to talk.

Shelly


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## Chipper5783 (May 27, 2019)

BigCasino said:


> 1340 GT seems to keep coming up, with all good reviews, but you said speed? It still has only 2 hp. Is the 90 rpm on the bottom side a problem? So looks like I jumped about 2 grand in machines, store of my life.


I feel a bottom end of 90 rpm is rather fast - especially for threading.  The bottom end on my two lathes are 45 rpm on the 15" and 30 rpm on the 11" - sometimes that seems fast when threading to a shoulder.  If you go with a VFD, then you can get that 90 rpm down pretty well as slow as you wish.


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## BigCasino (May 27, 2019)

shell70634 said:


> BC,
> I'm very new to machining and bought a PM1340GT.  I picked it because of the length I can cut , The spindle bore size, and the accuracy it's capable of.   I live about 50 miles East of Jasper.  You are welcome to come play with it if you get down this way.
> PM me for my number if you would like to talk.
> 
> Shelly


Did you happen to get the QCTP with it and is it any count? What side cutters 3/8,5/8, or 1/2 is best? If I can get down that wat I’ll let you know. Did you do a VFD


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## BigCasino (May 27, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> Have you looked at this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I saw that. OCD all the way, but I really like it


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## shell70634 (May 27, 2019)

I got the QCTP #250-111 and it works fine but it doesn't sit high enough.  I put a 1/4 inch spacer under it.  I would buy a larger one that puts the tool closer to centerline.  Even with the spacer my tool holders are at the limit of their adjustment.  I have zer0 experience with others.  The standard toolholder holds up to 1 inch and I shim the tools to adjust them.  I didn't get VFD and the lathe works fine but would probably get VFD if I ordered one today.  I've only used the high speed range just to see how it works, otherwise it stays in the low range.   Belt move to switch ranges is easy and fast, just haven't used high.  I drive cars and motorcycles fast, lathes and mills slow.  I was worried about the 90 rpm low speed but haven't experienced any problems threading.  I have crashed a tool or two, but due to my lack of attention.  I have purchased tools to thread on the back side in reverse.


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## Bill_729 (May 28, 2019)

BigCasino said:


> Did you happen to get the QCTP with it and is it any count? What side cutters 3/8,5/8, or 1/2 is best?



I'm not sure what you mean by "any count"?  The size of the cutters you should use is the biggest that is appropriate for the work you are doing. I think 1/2" is not a bad "default" size--and you can go bigger or smaller from there, as needed. Surely a bigger cutter is more rigid.  Disclaimer: I am not an expert.


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