# Considering Turcite on underside of lathe saddle to increase contact area.  Is there a reason not to do it this way?



## Ken226 (Oct 15, 2022)

The bed on my lathe has minimal wear, and I recently scraped the underside of the saddle to improve the amout of contact area.  While I had it apart, I noticed that the V under the saddle doesn't fully contact the beds V way.  There is an about 3/16" wide where the saddle doesn't contact the ways because the milled notch in the top of the V is too wide.

Like this:





I was considering milling the surfaces, adding some Turcite and scraping it in, to correct this.  I was thinking about using the Turcite epoxy/cement to partially infill the milled notch, in order to get full contact across the ways.

Something like this:





Then afterward, scraping in the Turcite.

Is there any reason this wouldn't work?  Should I leave it alone, or is this worth addressing with Turcite?


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## Firebrick43 (Oct 15, 2022)

Is there wear on the v way itself because of the lower point of contact?

While turcite is an excellent product, to me this would be a good application for moglice. Set up some shims on the top of the v way made of UHMW and some clay dams.  Then inject the moglice into the way area.


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## Ken226 (Oct 15, 2022)

Firebrick43 said:


> Is there wear on the v way itself because of the lower point of contact?
> 
> While turcite is an excellent product, to me this would be a good application for moglice. Set up some shims on the top of the v way made of UHMW and some clay dams.  Then inject the moglice into the way area.



Before I scraped the saddle in a couple years ago the contact area was pretty poor.  Even so, the wear on that V way isn't much (induction hardened ways).  

The wear is about .0005" deep  in a small area about 5/16" wide, centered on the frontside and backside of that specific v way.    That narrow wear strip gets progressively shallower towards the tailstock,  tapering down to zero,  about 8 inches from the tailstock.

the other 3 ways are practically pristine.

After I scraped in the saddle,  it basically is straddling that little wear strip,  so there isn't really an actual problem.  The lathe works great.

I guess I was just looking for a project.


Ill do some Google-fu on Moglice and educate myself on it.


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## RJSakowski (Oct 15, 2022)

Adding Turcite to the V ways will tilt the saddle.  You will have to compensate on the opposite flat.  For every .010" in thickness added, to the V, compensation on the flat would be .014".


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 15, 2022)

Many Manufacturers make it that way to distribute oil along the top.  It has a way wiper covering the gap doesn't it?  If not having any issues now, why not leave it alone and scrape the cross-slide, compound and tail stock if you need a project.  If you haven't, you'll need a dovetail straight-edge, another project.   What brand lathe is it and how big?   There is a guy named Gary Martin of Martin models that sells straight edge and other "projects".  if you need something to do.  https://www.martinmodel.com/

PS: I used to be use and was the MN distributor for Devitt Machinery that is now Moglice.com   It is a great product.  I would like to here more about the machine and photo's before recommending it or Turcite.  Or nothing at all.


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## Ken226 (Oct 15, 2022)

A


RJSakowski said:


> Adding Turcite to the V ways will tilt the saddle.  You will have to compensate on the opposite flat.  For every .010" in thickness added, to the V, compensation on the flat would be .014".



If I do this, I intend to mill the V on the saddle down to an amount equal to the thickness of the turcite.

I was thinking I'd use a 1" diameter 90° countersink/chamfer cutter,   and take depths of cut on Y, equal to the thickness of the turcite \cos(45°)

For turcite that is ..0314" thick,  a 90 degree chamfer mill taking a .0444" depth of cut should be right.

I'm not sure how much additional I should take to account for the thickness of the epoxy under the turcite though.  Might have to experiment with some scraps.


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## Ken226 (Oct 15, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> Many Manufacturers make it that way to distribute oil along the top.  It has a way wiper covering the gap doesn't it?





Yes,  the way wipes cover the gap.  I didn't even consider that this could have been intentional in the design.

Now that I think about it, that makes sense as the oiling ball inserts open into that space,  and the angled upper portion of the ways would funnel oil.

 I'm glad I asked here before I started milling.  I think I'll leave it alone.


The lathe is a run of the mill Chinese 13x40 made around the year 2000.  Mine is the Birmingham branded version, but they were imported and sold under various names by pretty much every importer that ever imported lathes.  The Grizzly G4016 is the most common version out there. 

I bought it used for 1200$ back in 2013.  The previous owner found it in a house he had just purchased and wanted it gone

I've done a bit of work to polish it up, things like a Siemens motor, VFD, better pulleys, upgraded to quality bearings from Timken and FAG, etc.

I've already scraped in the saddle, (not Richard King good, but it is way better than it was) and I'm not having any problems.  I just happened to be putting some new 3d printed way wipers a few days ago,  saw that gap and my OCD nature kicked in.


This is the lathe:






I'll take a few more pics of the wear areas of the ways,  and the area under the way wipes later today when I get home.


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## Firstram (Oct 15, 2022)

Your lathe is waaay too clean, makes me feel very self-conscious!


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## Ken226 (Oct 15, 2022)

Firstram said:


> Your lathe is waaay too clean, makes me feel very self-conscious!



Yea, I obsessively clean, organize and fix things that aren't broken.  The lathe and my PM mill do get used,  quite a bit actually, though it may not look like it.


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## Firstram (Oct 15, 2022)

I do keep the most important parts clean but the surrounding areas always have a protective coating of experience! Certainly not knocking your cleanliness, I gave up trying years ago!


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## Janderso (Oct 15, 2022)

Ken226 said:


> Yes,  the way wipes cover the gap.  I didn't even consider that this could have been intentional in the design.
> 
> Now that I think about it, that makes sense as the oiling ball inserts open into that space,  and the angled upper portion of the ways would funnel oil.
> 
> ...


Something is wrong with the chip tray. It doesn't hold chips


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## Ken226 (Oct 15, 2022)

So,  here is a photo of the spot under the way wipes.  I guess now that I'm looking at it its not as bad as I was thinking,  going from memory.





Here I set the camera angle and lighting to be as visible as possible.  The backside of the way looks pretty much identical.






The wear is practically zero at the bottom of the way face, and zero at the top,  but about .0005" deep in the middle.   It tapers gradually to none  at the tailstock end.  

I determined this using a Tesa .0001" test indicator in a magnetic base,  attached to a 123 block, with a hss tool black clamped to the 123 block.  I kept the clamped-on hss blank indexed against the ground backside of each flat way while sliding the 123 block down the ways and measuring.

  I measured both faces of that v way, several times each at various levels.

The various measurement passes taken from the flat ways agreed with each other very closely,  so I'm reasonably confident in the readings.





All of this wear occurred years ago,  before I scraped the saddle.  Back then, my precision (.0005" per foot)  level showed the bubble move about 1-1/2 full graduation while transiting the worn area.  The saddle was only contacting the way in a small area near the center of the way faces.

After I scraping in the the saddle,  I can run the carriage all the way from the headstock end to the tailstock end without the bubble moving.    I believe that after scraping the saddle to a good 30ppi contact pattern,  it's now pretty much straddling the narrow wear area.


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## Ken226 (Oct 15, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Something is wrong with the chip tray. It doesn't hold chips




It hold them, but not for long. 

Everything gets cleaned, shop vac'ed and wiped down after every use.  Like rainman, when it's time for Wapner.

The chips live in the chip pan for an hour or two,

There here,  until Fridays when they go out to the curb for the garbage man.

There's a whole bunch more under those paper towels.






BTW,  titanium and 416R leaves hella long chips.


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## Richard King 2 (Oct 16, 2022)

You could spend a lot of money refurbishing your Birmingham to make it like a Emco quality in your mind, but do you?  If it is running good now you need to decide if it is worth it.  You can see the bed is wavy and the design of the match fit of the saddle to the bed isn't the best, but you made it better.  I used to be a partner in a used machinery dealer called Midwestern Tool and Equipment in MPLS.  It was the former Midwestern Machinery and I learned that a Hardinges value usually went up in value with some work.  Putting money into a machine like a Birmingham or Grizzly did not enhance the value.   I am 72 now and am selling many of my spare tools as when I pass my wife won't have to deal with them.  I have no clue what your status is, but think about that too.     Cash in her hand is more valuable to her now then the pain she will have to deal with not knowing the value then.


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## Janderso (Oct 16, 2022)

Ken226 said:


> So,  here is a photo of the spot under the way wipes.  I guess now that I'm looking at it its not as bad as I was thinking,  going from memory.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dang man,
Those ways look like my lathe = Low wear, Sweet!!
IMHO you have a nice lathe there!!


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## Janderso (Oct 16, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> You could spend a lot of money refurbishing your Birmingham to make it like a Emco quality in your mind, but do you?  If it is running good now you need to decide if it is worth it.  You can see the bed is wavy and the design of the match fit of the saddle to the bed isn't the best, but you made it better.  I used to be a partner in a used machinery dealer called Midwestern Tool and Equipment in MPLS.  It was the former Midwestern Machinery and I learned that a Hardinges value usually went up in value with some work.  Putting money into a machine like a Birmingham or Grizzly did not enhance the value.   I am 72 now and am selling many of my spare tools as when I pass my wife won't have to deal with them.  I have no clue what your status is, but think about that too.     Cash in her hand is more valuable to her now then the pain she will have to deal with not knowing the value then.


Richard, 
It must be very hard to part with your beloved machine tools.
I know we all have to deal with this issue at some point. I don't want to think about it yet. I'm a young 65.
Good for you to help her deal with it now though.
I hope your overall health is good.


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## FOMOGO (Oct 16, 2022)

My only concern would be that the saddle isn't contacting the flat at the bottom rear of the front way. Other than that , if it's reasonably accurate I would say just enjoy it. Mike


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## Ken226 (Oct 16, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> My only concern would be that the saddle isn't contacting the flat at the bottom rear of the front way. Other than that , if it's reasonably accurate I would say just enjoy it. Mike



I think the missing paint makes it look worse than it is.  When you zoom way in, you can see metal there.






And even better  a couple mm in,   because of the scraping I did awhile back.


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## AlfromNH (Dec 4, 2022)

@Ken226 could you do me a favor and take a pic of the control panel straight on? I have the same lathe but the printing is almost completely gone from the front panel. Thanks.


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