# What are factors for what "class" of lathe to buy?



## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

*What are some factors for making a decision between two "classes/quality levels" of a lathe?*

Mostly in regards to accuracy and quality of end result given the experience of a novice operator.  I'm of the mindset that "accuracy" and "better" are relative terms...a Ferrari is not always better than a Honda Accord... they both have their roles so, it depends.

I'm not asking which lathe to buy... but I am deciding between the PM-1228 and the PM-1236T (Taiwan version).  Those two are equivalent (though not equal) in features (for my usage) for but the extra quality (as PM advertises) of the more refined PM-1236T is a hard to quantify for me.  Will I really need or even be able to use the extra quality?  If so, *the extra $3500 is worth it (based on options I selected)*... but if not... well, I don't want to needlessly spend the extra $.

*Context... *I'm coming from an Atlas 618 and it's been very fun and great to get started. Satisfied with quality of finish (T-15 HSS inserts for aluminum) and accuracy, or at least the accuracy according to my measuring skills .  However, I want to take deeper cuts, have a quick change gear box, separate threading/power feed and a proper DRO setup.  Bench top on a sturdy rolling workbench is absolute requirement. Mostly turning/boring on 2" or less diameter in aluminum and the occasional steel.  I likely don't need the accuracy for gun smithing where I assume hyper tight tolerance are necessary.  This is all hobby... but I do want a quality product.  99% of the time I'll just use and accept the accuracy of a 3 jaw scroll chuck... maybe an adjustable version.

There's no doubt you get what you pay for and paying extra just for better fit and finish is worth something... I think I'm just trying to convince myself the 1228 is all I need and will ever need and I won't regret some of the reported quirkiness and potential quality issues some have reported here... I'm sure, there's far more satisfied users with a few "lemon issues" for all the 1228's sold.  Obviously if both were the same price, or even if the cost diff was only $500... I'd just go with the 1236T.  On the other hand, there are many user of the 1228 that would get far better results (given their experience, and I hope to get there) than if I have the 1236T.

If it matters at all... I will be picking one of these up from PM's location, not having it shipped... which could mean, I can ensure and head off any shipping issues.


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## parshal (Jul 1, 2022)

Atlas 618 was my first lathe.  I used it to make ferrules for bamboo fly rods.  I wanted a bigger lathe so bought a South Bend 10K (light ten) with a 48" bed.  I chambered rifles between centers.  I learned a bit on that machine being that it was bigger than the Atlas but I only had it for a year or two before I went to the 1340GT.  What I'm saying is that you will probably get something bigger in the future despite what you think now.  If so, get the less expensive one knowing you'll be going bigger.  If you swear you won't go bigger get the T.


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## rabler (Jul 1, 2022)

Factors ...
Rigidity - the dimensions of a lathe say nothing about how sturdily it is built.  Weight may provide some insight.
Quality of assembly - do things fit well or sloppy?  Good bearings for minimal spindle runout. The ability of a lathe to produce good work depends a lot on how well the various ways/slides, etc, fit together.  Are they machines to good, accurate tolerance so they fit together well, or were rough machined parts slapped together.
Testing - is the machine well tested before being shipped out.  This tends to be more of a factor between different resellers (i.e., PM vs Grizzly) than different models by the same vendor.
Features - Gear ranges for threading, change gears vs qcgb, spindle speed ranges.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

parshal said:


> Atlas 618 was my first lathe.  I used it to make ferrules for bamboo fly rods.  I wanted a bigger lathe so bought a South Bend 10K (light ten) with a 48" bed.  I chambered rifles between centers.  I learned a bit on that machine being that it was bigger than the Atlas but I only had it for a year or two before I went to the 1340GT.  What I'm saying is that you will probably get something bigger in the future despite what you think now.  If so, get the less expensive one knowing you'll be going bigger.  If you swear you won't go bigger get the T.


True... if I have a high suspicion I'll want "bigger" in the future, it does make sense to "get by" with the less expensive for now.  But I've already felt the cost of tooling and all the periphery setup... so this is likely the last lathe I'll buy and invest in and be happy with.  A few hours of turning time a week... unless I turn it into making profit... then the decision becomes easier.  The cost from 1236T to the 1340T is only $500 so that would likely be on my radar if I "level up" on what class of machine I buy.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

rabler said:


> Factors ...
> Rigidity - the dimensions of a lathe say nothing about how sturdily it is built.  Weight may provide some insight.
> Quality of assembly - do things fit well or sloppy?  Good bearings for minimal spindle runout. The ability of a lathe to produce good work depends a lot on how well the various ways/slides, etc, fit together.  Are they machines to good, accurate tolerance so they fit together well, or were rough machined parts slapped together.
> Testing - is the machine well tested before being shipped out.  This tends to be more of a factor between different resellers (i.e., PM vs Grizzly) than different models by the same vendor.
> Features - Gear ranges for threading, change gears vs qcgb, spindle speed ranges.


Agreed on all those... for both lathes I'm considering, they are equivalent in all the features I want, size, both have QCGB and enough speed range, 10-1800 RPM.  The quality of assembly is what seems to be a gamble on the PM-1228, larger margin of getting the "good one" or the "off cut" one.  The 1236T or any of the Taiwan ones from PM, according to them are in a higher fit and finish class... better attention to detail and bearings all around... hence the more $$.  On the other than, seeming the 1228 has been very popular and lots of satisfied users (likely the position I'm in).  If I couldn't swing the $ of the 1236T... it's would be easy... it's always a best bang for the buck, not just less $ initial price.  

Picking up locally, (I'll have to check) is if I can operate it the movement on all axis and a quick run through to ensure it's not a lemon, may be the ticket on my purchase.


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## Shotgun (Jul 1, 2022)

What @skcncx just said.

I just swapped a Craftsman 12x36 for a Sebastian 16" swing H-model.  Much larger and more capable machine, but practically none of the old tooling transferred.  1.5"x8tpi, MT3 spindle to 2.125"x8tpi, MT4.5.  MT2 tail stock, to MT3.  AXA QCTP got swapped out for a CXA, and all the toolholders with it.  I would look at the idea of "upgrading later" with a very jaundiced eye, unless you're going to accept upgrading it all.


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## rabler (Jul 1, 2022)

The short answer is if you get the cheaper lathe, you will always wonder if the more expensive lathe would have made the work easier.


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## Winegrower (Jul 1, 2022)

rabler said:


> The short answer is if you get the cheaper lathe, you will always wonder if the more expensive lathe would have made the work easier.



Right on, the money comes and goes, but a lathe is forever.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> Right on, the money comes and goes, but a lathe is forever.



*All true...* to a point!! If money was no object, I'd go back 3 years and double the size of my shop, or make 2, one dedicated for woodworking and the other for metal, fab and welding.  Sometimes constraints are a good thing.


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## matthewsx (Jul 1, 2022)

I would consider 12x36 a good size for hobby work unless you will be turning rifle barrels. 

There is a reason why the Taiwan built machines command a higher price. 

If you can afford it you won’t regret going bigger/better. Don’t overlook used options either. 

John


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

rabler said:


> The short answer is if you get the cheaper lathe, you will always wonder if the more expensive lathe would have made the work easier.


Maybe... if the 1228 exceeds my expectation... I maybe glad I didn't need to go to the "next level" but conversely I would be wishing I spend the extra.

This is likely not good reasoning, but one reason to go with the 1228 and then subsequently all the periphery is that I don't need to sweat and pay for "high end" chucks and extras.  I'll likely be looking at places like ar warner for HSS indexable cutters and shars for other stuff. After talking to PM, I was asking about their ultra precision, 3 jaw adjustable chuck... it makes no sense to put that on a 1228 and what comes with the 1228 it is a great option... and for more more accuracy, I'd be better off learning how to dial in a 4 jaw.  Most of what I see doing is starting and finishing a part without removing and re-chucking it.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> I would consider 12x36 a good size for hobby work unless you will be turning rifle barrels.
> 
> There is a reason why the Taiwan built machines command a higher price.
> 
> ...


Yea, I think the 12x28 to 12x36 is a sweet spot and just bigger than anything I'll ever need... I've never run out or even come close of bed length on my 6x18... granted, I'm just getting going.

To give an idea, most of my turning will be for bushings, custom threaded fasteners, small custom stuff, spacers, shorter length telescopic tubing, etc... 

I'll never say I want less quality if I already have it... but I may also never say "I need more quality" if what the 1228 meets and exceeds my needs/wants.

I casually look on the used (FB and CL)... but in the last several months, pretty much nothing in my area for what I want. I'm not into a restoration project or something old enough it's to hard to get parts for.  That why PM is pretty much my go to and who I'll buy from... local enough to drive there and there responses and support from sales and tech have been great so far.


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## parshal (Jul 1, 2022)

I think I've used the 40" 1340 bed only a handful of times.  Where it's most helpful is being able to push the tailstock out of the way without having to remove it from the bed.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 1, 2022)

Since you are considering the 1236T  I'd suggest removing the 1228 from consideration. The 1236 is only $600 more than the 1228 and you get a more substantial lathe. If space were an issue the 1228 might be a good choice, but obviously space isn't a major issue or you wouldn't be thinking about the 1236T.
Is the 1236T worth another $2000? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. I doubt you would regret getting the 1236T, but $2000 could also buy a lot of tooling and upgrades.

Don't just look at the specs of the two lathes, also look at what comes with them, often you can find tangible features that the extra money buys. In this case that isn't obvious, and in fact the actual price difference is greater since the 1236 comes standard with features that cost extra on the 1236T.

1236 includes a steel stand, and is available with a cast iron stand for an extra $439, the 1236T does not come with a stand and the optional steel stand adds $800, cast iron stand is not available. 1236 can be upgraded from 1-1/2hp to 2HP for $400, this is not an option on the 1236T. 1236 comes with more tooling, two chucks a 6" 3 jaw and 8" 4 jaw, vs just a 6" 3 jaw on the 1236T. For an additional $400 you can order the 1236 with the Preferred package (1236 PEP) which adds a foot brake, BXA tool post set, coolant system, light and carriage stop. This option is not available for the 1236T.

1236T does have a slightly larger spindle bore 1-9/16" vs 1-1/2" (1/16th difference).


If I were considering both of these lathes (and I'm not) I'm starting to talk myself into the Chinese 1236 over the 1236T which actually surprises me a bit.


I will also note the 1228 also comes with less standard features / tooling (6" 3 jaw, vs 6" 3 jaw, 8" 4 jaw and 10" face plate) than the 1236 which helps close the $600 gap between the 1228 and 1236. The stand for the 1228 alone (not included in price) adds almost $500, steel stand is standard on the 1236.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

parshal said:


> I think I've used the 40" 1340 bed only a handful of times.  Where it's most helpful is being able to push the tailstock out of the way without having to remove it from the bed.


Tangentially related to bed length is the larger thru bore size... that's been a real limitation I have on the Atlas 618... the bore size is like 1/2" so 1.5" would be very much welcomed.

A few things I've learned from the Atlas 618 (would have never known "felt it" unless I tried it first hand)

QCTP is requirement, don't care what size. The small OXA on my 618 makes live easy switching between tools... which means I actually do it.  The AXA size for the 1228/1236 would be great as I'll likely just use 1/2" tooling.


Absence of a QCGB is now a requirement for next lathe (I changed the gears once, it has stayed put because it's pain, even though I want to change feed rate from .0024" to .0039" per revolution.


99.9% of what I even remotely think I want to turn will fit length wise on a 6x18 lathe


1/2" thru bore hole in spindle is quite the bummer.  1.5" from a PM lathe much better. I end up wasting more stock, rather than just feeding more thru for each repetitive parts... 75% of what I plan to turn is roughly 1" diameter.  Before this Atlas 618 adventure, that spec was just a number on paper.


DRO a requirement... I cobbled together the iGaging DRO read outs (just a way to digitize my travel distance) and it was a world more fun and get faster results without stopping and measuring so much.


Deeper cuts when possible... when I get spindle speed up to 1500 RPM on the Atlas 618 I can take a decent DOC on aluminum, but I know more is possible... obviously, on some smaller 1/2" sized diameter aluminum, wouldn't matter if I had 500 HP motor, you are still limited to the stock deflecting.. it's not like more is even usable after a certain point. (I have a 550 watt BLDC, variable speed on my Atlas 618) so at least RPM changes are easy with a potentiometer.


Accuracy of it meets my needs.  The smoothness of ways, saddle, etc are all fine in my book.  Larger handles will be welcome though.  I purchased a well cared for Atlas 618, it's very tight and no play in any movement.


Longer tail stock quill travel.  Realistically, it's only 1.5" usable... drilling holes just 2-3" inches deep means stop, reset and lock down tail stock.  I did buy this thing from edge technology to mount a chuck on your QCTP... but you have to dial that in every time you use it.


Most of all... a lathe was last on my ever care to have tool... now it's not!!
Similar experience to a band saw... never wanted to waste the workshop space. Got a small bench top model never realized how useful and much I'd use it. I couldn't care less if I had a large floor model band saw, what I got is perfect... hence, my dilemma between PM-1228 vs PM-1236 Taiwan version.

My Atlas 618 is so close but so far all at the same time.


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## Just for fun (Jul 1, 2022)

I can't comment on anything else really, as this is my first lathe.  I went with the 1236T and can't be happier.


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 1, 2022)

Considering what you've told us about yourself and your work, the difference between the two lathes (both sold by Matt) you will not encounter the difference the extra money buys. Buy the one made in China, Matt's specifications produce fine lathes, regardless of location of production. (If you were deciding between Matt's T version and some other product, be it Grizley or a Busy Bee product, I'd suggest PM's Tiwanese version)


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Since you are considering the 1236T  I'd suggest removing the 1228 from consideration. The 1236 is only $600 more than the 1228 and you get a more substantial lathe. If space were an issue the 1228 might be a good choice, but obviously space isn't a major issue or you wouldn't be thinking about the 1236T.
> Is the 1236T worth another $2000? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. I doubt you would regret getting the 1236T, but $2000 could also buy a lot of tooling and upgrades.
> 
> Don't just look at the specs of the two lathes, also look at what comes with them, often you can find tangible features that the extra money buys. In this case that isn't obvious, and in fact the actual price difference is greater since the 1236 comes standard with features that cost extra on the 1236T.
> ...


*All good analysis.  *Ruled out PM-1236, maybe for no good reason.


Bench top is requirement for me and also on my own stand which will be a 60" to 72" by 24" deep rolling tool chest with all the drawers and stuff for all my tooling.... just too convenience for an OCD organizer person.  Tool chest is around $800, modified with stabilizing caster and such.  I figured the 1236 had to be on their stand given it has a brake and I assume integral to the style stand it sits on.  Can't say this is rational for most, but for my space something on wheels that "can" move is a must.


Ideally, the overall length of the 1228 is preferred, but I'm willing to go to the 1236/1236T if need be.


Agree on all the other "stuff", extras and accessories you get with the 1236 over the 1228.  When you add the PEP(DRO) it's now $6000 to start.


4 jaw (nice to have, but I'm ok pushing that off for a long time), have yet to want/need it yet, same with face plate.  I guess I see those easier to add on when needed later... though if you already have it, more likely to use it.


The nicer style steady rest on the 1236 and 1236T would be a nice upgrade. 


AXA to BXA, I guess I don't really care to pay more for one over the other... not sure what I'm getting... I'm satisfied with my OXA one now.


1236T doe have micrometer carriage stop.. but it extra .  That is not an option for 1228, it just has a stop... unless make my own.

I feel as though if I spend more than the 1228 w/DRO package my focus will be on overall fit/finish/mechanics quality (in a package, bench top size) for my needs than just more "stuff" that comes with it.  I may be skewed in my thinking, but that why I'm trying to decide if the considerable jump from 1228 to 1236T is worth it for me.... hence, I'm not comparing the two per say, just decided what "level/quality" I'm willing to accept and pay for.

Starting with the right base/foundation is my key decision.  Accessories are secondary.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

T Bredehoft said:


> Considering what you've told us about yourself and your work, the difference between the two lathes (both sold by Matt) you will not encounter the difference the extra money buys. Buy the one made in China, Matt's specifications produce fine lathes, regardless of location of production. (If you were deciding between Matt's T version and some other product, be it Grizley or a Busy Bee product, I'd suggest PM's Tiwanese version)


Thanks for the input! That's the key "you will not encounter the difference the extra money buys"... and it saves me from having to buy higher end of everything else to match the quality of the lathe when I don't need it or will see the difference.  It's not like I think or gather the 1228 is a slouch/inaccurate in anyway.  Ultimately I don't care where they are made, I care that they are made to a certain quality level and the design is good. I'm trusting "PM specifications for manufacturing" for the 1228 or any lathe does have real world influence behind it... as it is seemingly a model sold to others for resale of potentially lesser quality control.

One thing I am sold on is getting what ever I get from PM.  Local'ish to me and great support... that goes a LOOOONG way in my book for this type of purchase.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

T Bredehoft said:


> Considering what you've told us about yourself and your work, the difference between the two lathes (both sold by Matt) you will not encounter the difference the extra money buys. Buy the one made in China, Matt's specifications produce fine lathes, regardless of location of production. (If you were deciding between Matt's T version and some other product, be it Grizley or a Busy Bee product, I'd suggest PM's Tiwanese version)


Do you have experience with either the PM-1228VF-LB or the PM-1236T?


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

*If things were perfect... I'd get to try both, side by side... the decision would be easy.*  Too bad they have neither one at their shop... and likely that's not even an option in the future if I wait because they are out the door before they come in.... so I'm trying to decide which "line" I get in for a pre order.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 1, 2022)

I have a 1236T and chose it over the 1228 for several reasons. 

#1, not made in China.  I have not been happy with most made in China products, and I don’t want my money going to that country if I can avoid it.
#2,  I bought a 3 phase motor version (2hp) so I could use a VFD to control the speed, and have the ability to customize it the way I like.  I wasn’t sold on using a DC motor that might be hard to find if it needed replacement, and wasn’t sure how customizable it was with the controls.
#3, it’s a heavier lathe indicating it should be more rigid even though the bed widths are the similar.
#4, NSK P5 spindle bearings.  That was a big deal for me, the higher class bearings do make a difference.
#5, I believe the 1236T has better threading options, can’t remember on that, but I did not want to change gears frequently.  I mostly do metric, so that was an issue for me that might not be relevant for you.
#6, I like the longer bed, I keep the tailstock on and it never gets in the way.  I haven’t needed the length for turning yet, but nice to have that extra length if that day comes.  

Made in Taiwan was a big selling point over Chinese, but that does not mean perfect.  My lathe had some minor issues, but nothing that was a big issue.  Overall, I have not had any significant problems with the lathe and am very happy with it.  I’m not sure I would have bought it at the current prices since I can usually find something used in my area, but at the price I paid a couple years ago, I am very happy.  I have a thread on my experiences getting the lathe into my basement as well as some of the minor issues I had with it. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm-1236t-review.98036/#post-923464

Something to consider, the 3 jaw chuck that comes with the 1236T does not have a country or origin on it like my 4 jaw chuck does, so I assume it is from China.  It had 0.007” runout, buying a Taiwanese lathe, I would have expected better.

I put an AXA toolpost on my lathe because I had it already.  If I was purchasing new, I would go with a BXA due to the better tooling selections with 5/8” shanks, and you can use bigger parting blades.  The larger parting blade is getting close to pushing me to upgrade to a BXA.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I have a 1236T and chose it over the 1228 for several reasons.
> 
> #1, not made in China.  I have not been happy with most made in China products, and I don’t want my money going to that country if I can avoid it.
> #2,  I bought a 3 phase motor version (2hp) so I could use a VFD to control the speed, and have the ability to customize it the way I like.  I wasn’t sold on using a DC motor that might be hard to find if it needed replacement, and wasn’t sure how customizable it was with the controls.
> ...


I certainly don't have much room to buy "more" for the 1236T and DRO is nearly a must for me, I'm now pushing the $9k mark getting it to my door (tax, cost to pickup etc.)... I have no doubt everything is a level up on it... just can't decide if it's "my money" best spent.  

I wish I had all these epiphanies 3 years ago before crazy price inflation on everything.  1236T does have better threading, but the QCGB on the 1228 for all my go to TPI meets all my wants w/out gear changes.  The bearings, yes... I'm aware.

Thanks for the insight on the BXA for a larger parting blade... that is the size that is an add on from PM.  That is one operation I get the most chatter on my lathe and where I have to learn the most on accurate setup and right procedure for my given lathe in front of me.  I stall the most in this operation and don't feel like I'm doing it correctly... other than just advancing and eventually cutting my part of.


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## mikey (Jul 1, 2022)

If I were going to buy a new lathe today, it would be a PM 1236T or a 1340GT. This has more to do with the build quality between Taiwanese and Chinese lathes than anything else. The latter also has hardened and ground spindle and gears, which is well worth the cost to step up to it.

You also need to be very careful when looking at written data sheets and included accessories. A cheap lathe looks as good as a better lathe on paper. More useful is the weight, bed width, spindle bearing accuracy class, whether the spindle/bed/gears are hardened and ground spindle bore size and overall build quality. Taiwanese lathes cost more to produce and the overall result is usually worth paying for.

You need a decent 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck, a steady rest, and a thread dial indicator at minimum. Everything else is optional; better quality accessories can usually be found from aftermarket suppliers. DRO's are nice if you can afford it.

Do not buy the fluff unless you need it and can clearly articulate the need. This includes follow rests, taper attachments, collet chucks, adjust-tru chucks, 6jaw chucks. Spend your money on a better lathe instead.

Do buy good metrology stuff. Buy the best and buy it once.

While PM is the best source for details, the most useful info will come from actual OWNERS/USERS of the lathe/s you are interested in. Ask the 1236T and 1340GT owners for their impressions; I would listen to them.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 1, 2022)

skcncx said:


> My Atlas 618 is so close but so far all at the same time.



Based on this you would probably be quite happy with a 9-11" vintage lathe and save a ton of money.

South Bend 9A came with a QCGB and was available in several lengths from 17-34" between centers, the shorter bed versions are heavier, but not much larger than the 618.
Atlas / Craftsman, Logan, South Bend all sold 10" lathes with a QCGB. Spindle bore is still fairly small with most around 3/4". Bigger than your 618, but quite a bit smaller than a 12" lathe.

South Bend Heavy 10 (actual 10.75") and Logan 11" lathes have a 1-3/8" spindle bore. The Heavy 10 is usually (always?) cabinet mounted, but the Logan 11" was available as a bench top.

All but the SB Hvy 10 can usually be found in good shape in the $1500-2500 range. The SB Hvy 10 tends to be more desirable so runs higher $2500-4000 being typical in my experience. Even at the higher end you are well under the 1228's price tag when you add in shipping and taxes. A good quality DRO can be added for >$1000, cheap ones for a few hundred.

If the major issue is the lack of a QCGB, have you considered adding an electronic lead screw to your 618? You could potentially have the bulk of your complaints solved for less than $1000.


New lathe is always nice, but you sound quite content with your 6" lathe, just looking for a few more features. A new 12" lathe is a lot of money to spend for a bigger spindle bore and QCGB. You have options.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

mikey said:


> If I were going to buy a new lathe today, it would be a PM 1236T or a 1340GT. This has more to do with the build quality between Taiwanese and Chinese lathes than anything else. The latter also has hardened and ground spindle and gears, which is well worth the cost to step up to it.
> 
> You also need to be very careful when looking at written data sheets and included accessories. A cheap lathe looks as good as a better lathe on paper. More useful is the weight, bed width, spindle bearing accuracy class, whether the spindle/bed/gears are hardened and ground spindle bore size and overall build quality. Taiwanese lathes cost more to produce and the overall result is usually worth paying for.
> 
> ...


Thanks... 1340GT is out, not a bench top model.... the 1228 and 1236T are equivalent feature wise to me... QCGB, threading dial, size, power feed in all directions, bench top, good enough power... if I could ensure a high quality 1228 I'd go that way... the 1236T seems like it's much more known entity as to the level of quality I'll get.

Agree on the fluff, I want to start off on the right foundation ... the lathe. The 4-jaw at the moment for me is unnecessary, that has no bearing on my decision if included or not.  Collet chuck, considered and realized I do a lot of different sizes from one thing to the next so it's not a benefit to me and easy to add on later.

*PM-1228 on the site does say... (maybe not to the level of the 1236T)*
- Induction Hardened and Precision Ground Bed Ways to resist wear and give a long service life
- All gears and shafts in headstock hardened and precision ground for long life and quieter running

My fear, rational or not is that the 1228 on paper "says" all the right things... but the detail not easily seen unless you are standing in front of both may tell another story.

Comes down to what build quality of either meets/exceeds what I want... if it's both, I'll save the money.  Unfortunately, no words or docs or manuals (as I've read both for these models) will tell me that .  And it doesn't make it easier since I have no doubt the 1236T is a level up in quality overall... better parts and fitment.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Based on this you would probably be quite happy with a 9-11" vintage lathe and save a ton of money.
> 
> South Bend 9A came with a QCGB and was available in several lengths from 17-34" between centers, the shorter bed versions are heavier, but not much larger than the 618.
> Atlas / Craftsman, Logan, South Bend all sold 10" lathes with a QCGB. Spindle bore is still fairly small with most around 3/4". Bigger than your 618, but quite a bit smaller than a 12" lathe.
> ...


*The vintage route is a good one...* but you are at the mercy of "if anything comes available" and within a few hours drive.  Could be next week or 3 years from now or never.  Buy a good one for $2K, and you are still spending a lot to modify it... it's not that clear cut of a decision.

Rational or not, adding much more to my 618 I feel like I'm making something it's not... as great as is and how much I like it.  Stepping up in rigidity, weight and power isn't something I can do either.

The 12" size class is about my max size based on overall dimensions and I know I won't outgrow it.... so I figure, take the big leap now.

There is a MyFord Super 7 about 60 minutes from me for $3,500... but parts and such are likely very hard to come by... that size was nice and I'm still at $5-6K when I need to supply most if not all the tooling etc.


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## mikey (Jul 1, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Thanks... 1340GT is out, not a bench top model.... the 1228 and 1236T are equivalent feature wise to me... QCGB, threading dial, size, power feed in all directions, bench top, good enough power... if I could ensure a high quality 1228 I'd go that way... the 1236T seems like it's much more known entity as to the level of quality I'll get.
> 
> Agree on the fluff, I want to start off on the right foundation ... the lathe. The 4-jaw at the moment for me is unnecessary, that has no bearing on my decision if included or not.  Collet chuck, considered and realized I do a lot of different sizes from one thing to the next so it's not a benefit to me and easy to add on later.
> 
> ...



Just keep in mind that paper shopping is not the same as reality. Ask the owners; they know. 

Too bad Emco stopped making manual lathes.


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## mksj (Jul 1, 2022)

Having owned a 1340GT and working with many other individuals with different lathes, I would recommend the 1236T over the 1228, even though on paper the 1228 appears to offer more. If you look at the numbers and compare machines it really doesn't tell you much about how they work and operate. The 1236T/1340GT are the same basic lathe other than the size there are some small manufacturing difference but will not be noticeable in the hobby environment. I would recommend 3 phase and you can do a VFD basic install which is outlined another thread. You want to go with BXA tooling. Having a decent 3J, 4J and possibly a collet chuck should be on your short list. QMT/PM has very good Taiwanese chucks, I would recommend a set-tru style for the 3J as it is a much higher quality. I find most of the stock chucks if they are offered at this level machines to be quite poor, so consider using it on a rotary table or door stop. Tooling adds up, but you can spread those costs over time.





						6″ Adjustable Ultra Precision 3 Jaw Chuck, D1-4 Mount – Precision Matthews Machinery Co.
					






					www.precisionmatthews.com
				





			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/chuck4j-8d1-4/
		



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/product-category/accessories/lathe-accessories/lathe-chucks/collet-chucks/


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 1, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Thanks for the insight on the BXA for a larger parting blade... that is the size that is an add on from PM. That is one operation I get the most chatter on my lathe and where I have to learn the most on accurate setup and right procedure for my given lathe in front of me. I stall the most in this operation and don't feel like I'm doing it correctly... other than just advancing and eventually cutting my part of.


On either of those lathes, you won’t get chatter, you will snap the blade if you do it wrong.  I have too much experience with that lol.

As far as bench top, your bench will need to be fairly short unless you are really tall.  You could always make a riser to stand on, but I’m 5’-6” and my stand is only 30” tall with the 1236T.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 1, 2022)

9 K for a 12" lathe ? Wow ! If I was going to spend that kind of money , I would be looking at Hardinges HLV-Hs on Craigslist . Are PMs really that expensive ?


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 1, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> 9 K for a 12" lathe ? Wow ! If I was going to spend that kind of money , I would be looking at Hardinges HLV-Hs on Craigslist . Are PMs really that expensive ?


When you add in the stand, shipping and tax, yes it is close to that.

I bought mine before the big run up in prices, today I would probably do as you say and find a good Hardinge.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 1, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> When you add in the stand, shipping and tax, yes it is close to that.


Highway robbery ! I just can't see it with so many used lathes out there . I guess it's the same with cars , buying new vs. buying used . New you know what your getting and have a service dept supporting you .


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## mmcmdl (Jul 1, 2022)

Was looking at Flea Bay for a Hardinge X and Z cross slide . Dang , they're up there too now . There used to be tons of this stuff cheap , guess those days are over .


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 1, 2022)

Yup, everything is getting expensive due to the supply shortages, but I think the economy is heading for a crash, so there might be a lot of used equipment available for good prices soon.


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## rabler (Jul 1, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Was looking at Flea Bay for a Hardinge X and Z cross slide . Dang , they're up there too now . There used to be tons of this stuff cheap , guess those days are over .


Here you go Dave, a Hardinge at a special price ...


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

mikey said:


> Just keep in mind that paper shopping is not the same as reality. Ask the owners; they know.
> 
> Too bad Emco stopped making manual lathes.


I know, but paper shopping is about all I've got as with all the valued opinions on this thread and forum.  I can't even go to PM and see them... they don't have them.  I've read just about every 1228 post I could find, watched an 8 part series from Frank Hoose on this lathe. Read the good bad and ugly and I realize, you are likely to hear more frustration for a given product in reviews than the mostly satisfied users who don't go out of their way to just say "it works as it should".

I to wish there were more manufacturers in this area of smaller lathes... seems like you just have 1 or two major manufacturers...then pick your seller.


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## matthewsx (Jul 1, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Yea, I think the 12x28 to 12x36 is a sweet spot and just bigger than anything I'll ever need... I've never run out or even come close of bed length on my 6x18... granted, I'm just getting going.
> 
> To give an idea, most of my turning will be for bushings, custom threaded fasteners, small custom stuff, spacers, shorter length telescopic tubing, etc...
> 
> ...


So, reading this thread, and having participated in dozens of similar ones I just want to point out a few things. You talk about classes of lathes and I think that's a good analogy, kinda like what class boxers fall into. There are lightweights, middle weights and heavyweights and many more divisions than I know. 

The most important thing I see here is weight of the machine in question. Someone on here said once "you can't add iron" What that means to me is you can add accessories, tooling, DRO's, and all sorts of things to make your machine more useful but you're stuck with the base castings your machine came with. Since you have a 6x18 you already know the limitations of a small machine so we don't need to explain that. 

Just looking at the specs from PM the 12x28 weighs in at 490lbs without stand, while the 12x36 is 1200lbs with the stand. That's a big difference that will impact the cuts you'll be able to make with each machine, kinda like putting a bantam weight fighter against a middleweight. The technique can be great for either but in the end the middle weight will win most of the time.

Speaking of stands....

You mentioned using a toolbox on wheels for your stand. While that may work I suspect you won't be happy with it in the long run, toolboxes just aren't built to take that kind of weight on top and when you add tooling it's easy to exceed the overall capacity. Remember this a dynamic load, not static like a drawer full of tools.

What I'm planning on is building a tube steel stand with space to accommodate toolboxes. The stand itself will have both wheels and leveling feet, I have the cheap Chinese knock-off leveling feet but honestly I think cast iron wheels with separate leveling feet will be the way to go. I also want to build fine lathe leveling into the top of the stand so I don't have to lay on the ground so much.

@davidpbest has a great write up on the stand he built for his PM 1340, also many other projects including how to make a solid plinth to increase the rigidity of any lathe. 

So for me I'd say you're really looking at two classes of machines between the ones you mentioned above. Taiwan builds better machines but precision mostly depends on how you use the tools, at least at the hobby level. For the extra $600 in my mind it's an easy decision, mass wins almost every time when it comes to machine tools. You may never need it for your application but if you do you'll be happy it's there.

Cheers,

John


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

mksj said:


> Having owned a 1340GT and working with many other individuals with different lathes, I would recommend the 1236T over the 1228, even though on paper the 1228 appears to offer more. If you look at the numbers and compare machines it really doesn't tell you much about how they work and operate. The 1236T/1340GT are the same basic lathe other than the size there are some small manufacturing difference but will not be noticeable in the hobby environment. I would recommend 3 phase and you can do a VFD basic install which is outlined another thread. You want to go with BXA tooling. Having a decent 3J, 4J and possibly a collet chuck should be on your short list. QMT/PM has very good Taiwanese chucks, I would recommend a set-tru style for the 3J as it is a much higher quality. I find most of the stock chucks if they are offered at this level machines to be quite poor, so consider using it on a rotary table or door stop. Tooling adds up, but you can spread those costs over time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A good quality 3 jaw chuck for me to start and will last a long time before I want/need the additional 4 jaw... unless I turn parts a 3 jaw won't work for.  I asked John from sales at PM... he didn't really recommend their adjustable 3 jaw for the 1228... somewhat over classed for it... the 1236T he did for... that would have been a better pairing... that was just his perspective.  I'm not sure on the collet chuck... I'll let need drive that, but ER40 is likely what I'd lean to... though 5C has their advantages. I have a good friend who owns a machine shop but even his tool room lathes are 3 times bigger than anything I would consider and they mainly use 3 jaw chucks... go figure.... I guess it's hyper dependent on what you are doing.  I have a 4 jaw for my atlas 618 but have yet to use it.

On paper the 1228 complete or rather have a lot of overlapping features, that is why I'm considering it.  Read both manuals, general operation is pretty equivalent ... but if you have to fight with the one to change gears and "work around" things that should just work then obviously manuals and spec sheets won't let you know that.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> On either of those lathes, you won’t get chatter, you will snap the blade if you do it wrong.  I have too much experience with that lol.
> 
> As far as bench top, your bench will need to be fairly short unless you are really tall.  You could always make a riser to stand on, but I’m 5’-6” and my stand is only 30” tall with the 1236T.


Well, the trick on the rolling tool chest bench is to lower it a bit with smaller casters or move them off to the side and it has to be a rolling chest that's considered a "workbench" as they are lower anyways because they are designed to be worked on... dedicated tool chest are too high.  I'm 6' and I have my Atlas 618 on a rolling tool chest workbench and it's a few inches too low so I have some room to work with.... but agree ergonomics can be important because I have notifiable fatigue with longer sessions... constantly hunched over just too much.

I found if the cut off bar is not perfectly perpendicular to the work piece, it rubs and the fun sounds begin... I think a slipping belt has been a good safety feature for me.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 1, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> 9 K for a 12" lathe ? Wow ! If I was going to spend that kind of money , I would be looking at Hardinges HLV-Hs on Craigslist . Are PMs really that expensive ?



Yeah, there has been a significant price increase of import lathes over the past 4 or so years. A lot of import machines have seen price increases as much as 50% over what they were in 2016-17. The infamous Harbor Freight 7x10" was $499 in 2016, now they are $779 and almost never go on sale, while in 2016 you could use the 25% off coupons. Interestingly the few US makers of hobbyist grade machines (primarily Taig and Sherline) have not seen large price increases.



skcncx said:


> I to wish there were more manufacturers in this area of smaller lathes... seems like you just have 1 or two major manufacturers...then pick your seller.



That is a comment I've seen from many, particularly those who enjoy the smaller class of lathes. There really isn't much in the way of a modern Myford 7 or South Bend 9A available to the small shop hobbyist. Even your 618 is a pretty fancy machine compared to most of the 7" and 8" import lathes. Emco comes the closest but they dropped out of the hobby market in the 80s.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> So, reading this thread, and having participated in dozens of similar ones I just want to point out a few things. You talk about classes of lathes and I think that's a good analogy, kinda like what class boxers fall into. There are lightweights, middle weights and heavyweights and many more divisions than I know.
> 
> The most important thing I see here is weight of the machine in question. Someone on here said once "you can't add iron" What that means to me is you can add accessories, tooling, DRO's, and all sorts of things to make your machine more useful but you're stuck with the base castings your machine came with. Since you have a 6x18 you already know the limitations of a small machine so we don't need to explain that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight... The PM 1228 is 490 lbs but the 1236T is only 850lb... still quite a bit more than the 1228.  I think my atlas 618 is like 100 lbs... easily lifted mounting board and all into the back of my truck .   The 1236 I think has to be mounted one of their stands... and I spend more than the PM 1228... I'll just jump to the 1236T.

A rolling tool box on wheels with leveling feet so it's off the caster when turning is likely a certainty.... that's actually a benefit of the 1228 (though, likely sacrificing what's most important for the lathe and that is mass.  I gotta imagine, if I mounted the PM 1228 on a 1.75" thick maple board on a 2000lb rated tool chest and only turned when it's on leveling feet, that should be prettcy decent setup.  The 1236T... now I do think I'm pushing the limits for a rolling toolchest setup..... The convenience for all the periphery to make a productive workstation is so nice to have given I don't have a ton of workshop space and my OCD on organization kicks in.

The tubular framed bench and with tool chests just slid in ... not the main support is the next best thing... just takes a lot more work... but would be a fun project for me... just go into aluminum welding, with the right structure and design, could make it work.


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Yeah, there has been a significant price increase of import lathes over the past 4 or so years. A lot of import machines have seen price increases as much as 50% over what they were in 2016-17. The infamous Harbor Freight 7x10" was $499 in 2016, now they are $779 and almost never go on sale, while in 2016 you could use the 25% off coupons. Interestingly the few US makers of hobbyist grade machines (primarily Taig and Sherline) have not seen large price increases.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a comment I've seen from many, particularly those who enjoy the smaller class of lathes. There really isn't much in the way of a modern Myford 7 or South Bend 9A available to the small shop hobbyist. Even your 618 is a pretty fancy machine compared to most of the 7" and 8" import lathes. Emco comes the closest but they dropped out of the hobby market in the 80s.


I really wanted a Taig... but I realized it's just too small.... wish they would design a next size up model.  I'd be fine in the 10x22 size range... but once you get to the 12" size you start having the QCGB and isolated feed and threading shafts.


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## FOMOGO (Jul 1, 2022)

Quote: What are factors for what "class" of lathe to buy?​
I have several lathes from several different class's. One form the class of 39', one from the class of 42' one from the class of 02', and even one from the class of 1891. Me, I'm from the class of 69, anywhere, any time.  Mike


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## matthewsx (Jul 1, 2022)

Check out this stand....









						Welded Stand For PM1340 Lathe
					

Designed and fabricated specifically for the Precision Matthews PM1340 metal lathe.  Descriptions in comments of each image - just click the image for explanation.




					www.flickr.com


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## skcncx (Jul 1, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Check out this stand....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read his thread... really good design setup for strength in structure and functionality!


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## Dabbler (Jul 1, 2022)

@skcncx The criteria you name and the analysis of that criteria have painted quite a good picture of your thoughts, and your reasoning is sound. 

If you want a good -general purpose- lathe, then weight is a  factor, and the more the (usually) better.  I have a 12X37 lathe weighing around 800lbs, a 14X40 weighing at around 1500 lbs, and a 15X60 at 3300lbs.  you can notice the extra rigidity and quality of finish as you progress to the heavier machines.  This is also an aid to learning, as you can find the smaller lathes complicate parting and form tool operations. 

Not all of us have the room for a bigger lathe and I get it.  *In theory* it is more versatile to have a bench lathe (storage, etc)  but in practice, the lathes needs a VERY solid top to get consistent diameters past 1" of stick out - My 12X37 has a custom stand nowadays.  The lathe is bolted to a frame made of 3X1/4" angle iron with cross braces, and steel plates for rigidity.  Even so, I would now design the entire base differently, and make it far more rigid.

UNLESS your biggest part will be in the 1" X 1" range.  then ignore all of the above...

I always advocate for the 2 lathe system:  the one you learn on, and the one that will be your permanent one...  You seem to be doing just that,

I have a Taiwanese lathe, and Chinese lathe and an American lathe.  The Taiwanese lathe is every bit as high quality as my American lathe, and in some areas, far exceeds it.  There were, however a few flaws in the Taiwanese lathe that I had to correct as well.  My Chinese lathe, the 14X40, is still adequate, but on many points is not as refined as either of the other two.

If I were to look at a purchase from the point of view of X for Chinese origin or X+20% for a Taiwanese origin, I'd choose the Taiwanese. I feel that it lowers the risk there will be a flaw in the machine.  It is no guarantee.  As Matt from PM will tell you, The extra he pays for the Taiwanese lathes (and passes on to you) gives the manufacturer far less incentive to cut corners and provide you a lifelong lathe.


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## 7milesup (Jul 1, 2022)

Ahhh what the heck, I might as well chime in too.  I started on a PM 1022 lathe.  At first, I thought it was a really nice lathe, and for the most part it was.  Blondihacks does some really nice work on one.   I built a custom stand for mine out of tubing and had some shelves underneath for storage.  Not as elaborate as David Best's, but it got the job done.  But, I started to find more limitations with the length of the PM1022.  I started looking at used American Iron, specifically the LeBlond line, but really did not find what I was looking for.  I also was not real comfortable buying a used lathe because I was unsure as to how to evaluate the wear that it might have.  In the end, I bought an Eisen 1440 (same as the PM1440GT).  I can do better work on the 1440 than the 1022 because of fit, finish, and weight.  I love it.  I paid $7600 for it, delivered.  Three months later the price is $13,200.
There are a lot of lathes that advertise a heavy cast iron base, but to me, that is somewhat wasted space.  Build a heavy stand that has drawers or shelving that can be utilized for tool or stock storage.  I personally would not put a lathe on top of a tool chest; It seems that it would not have the integrity to prevent cutting issues.
If I was you, I would either get the 1236GT or keep looking for good used iron.


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> If I were to look at a purchase from the point of view of X for Chinese origin or X+20% for a Taiwanese origin, I'd choose the Taiwanese. I feel that it lowers the risk there will be a flaw in the machine. It is no guarantee. As Matt from PM will tell you, The extra he pays for the Taiwanese lathes (and passes on to you) gives the manufacturer far less incentive to cut corners and provide you a lifelong lathe.


If it was only 20% increase, that's a no brainer.  It's more like x + 60%.  For my use and setup, that's the hard decision.  That extra $3K in the long term isn't that much... but if I don't need to why spend it.

*Based prices (no DRO or QCTP and similar included accessories)*
PM-1228VF-LB - $4,400
PM-1236T - $7,000

*With DROs and QCTP*
PM-1228VF-LB $5,200 (AXA QCTP)
PM-1236T - $8,299 (BXA QCTP, could reduce $300 if I remove their DRO install fee)
*DROS are same model

I am re-thinking my stand issue.. no doubt a chest of drawers built in somewhere, but a heavier duty structure (casters only for moving when needed, otherwise firmly planted and leveled as much as possible).  That's where I actually prefer the less weight of the 1228... but that might be a silly compromise given all the insight on mass, rigidity has a direct affect... when turning larger stuff.  Most of my stuff will be 2" diameter or less in aluminum, 2-6" length..

Maybe take more time on my Atlas 618 and wait and see.... but I do think I've gotten immeasurable knowledge for getting into this craft and knowing what's important to me with just a few months of using it.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 2, 2022)

Man , I would send you a nice table your way if I could . I have a saw going out to Ohio today but I think his van is full already . It sounds like you already made up your mind on the lathe . Either way , get ready for the fun .


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Ahhh what the heck, I might as well chime in too.  I started on a PM 1022 lathe.  At first, I thought it was a really nice lathe, and for the most part it was.  Blondihacks does some really nice work on one.   I built a custom stand for mine out of tubing and had some shelves underneath for storage.  Not as elaborate as David Best's, but it got the job done.  But, I started to find more limitations with the length of the PM1022.  I started looking at used American Iron, specifically the LeBlond line, but really did not find what I was looking for.  I also was not real comfortable buying a used lathe because I was unsure as to how to evaluate the wear that it might have.  In the end, I bought an Eisen 1440 (same as the PM1440GT).  I can do better work on the 1440 than the 1022 because of fit, finish, and weight.  I love it.  I paid $7600 for it, delivered.  Three months later the price is $13,200.
> There are a lot of lathes that advertise a heavy cast iron base, but to me, that is somewhat wasted space.  Build a heavy stand that has drawers or shelving that can be utilized for tool or stock storage.  I personally would not put a lathe on top of a tool chest; It seems that it would not have the integrity to prevent cutting issues.
> If I was you, I would either get the 1236GT or keep looking for good used iron.


Thanks... I too see these far more experienced users loving their PM 10x22 and the PM 1228 and getting great results from them... as I have a similar experience with my 100 lb. Atlas 618 so I gotta think going to a 490 lb. PM 1228 is a huge step up in ability.... it's just hard not to look just a little further for something better... the 1236T.... if I out grew that (or even the PM 1228).... then I likely have a business reason and then the decision is so easy....  us hobby guys have the real mental struggle.... it is money spent for satisfaction not ROI.   Money spent for fun, satisfaction is harder to quantify... and I've done my fair share of spending that $ on hobby stuff... it's a game of tetris with my tool wants, space and what I want to reserve back for other shop related stuff.


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

7milesup said:


> But, I started to find more limitations with the length of the PM1022.


@7milesup What were those "limitations" you found?  Anything a deal breaker?  I assume the 1228 is a bit more robust than the 1022 but still very similar in many ways.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 2, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Yeah, there has been a significant price increase of import lathes over the past 4 or so years. A lot of import machines have seen price increases as much as 50% over what they were in 2016-17. The infamous Harbor Freight 7x10" was $499 in 2016, now they are $779 and almost never go on sale, while in 2016 you could use the 25% off coupons. Interestingly the few US makers of hobbyist grade machines (primarily Taig and Sherline) have not seen large price increases.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a comment I've seen from many, particularly those who enjoy the smaller class of lathes. There really isn't much in the way of a modern Myford 7 or South Bend 9A available to the small shop hobbyist. Even your 618 is a pretty fancy machine compared to most of the 7" and 8" import lathes. Emco comes the closest but they dropped out of the hobby market in the 80s.


The cost of shipping containers is responsible for some of the cost increase of Asian lathes that the US manufacturers do not have to deal with.  In the case of my 1236T, I’m estimating you can fit 15 of them in a 40 ft container.  With the cost increasing from about $2,000 two years ago to $20,000+ last year, that adds over $1,000 to the cost just from shipping.

I would have loved to get an Emco lathe, but I don’t want to even imagine what they would cost new today!


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> It sounds like you already made up your mind on the lathe


That's the problem... I haven't ... other than a 12x lathe is in the future.  Selfishly (mainly for my wallet), I was hoping more people would talk me into the PM-1228 as it would be just as good "for me".... but all of this is hard to define with words and "paper shopping".

It all comes down to fit/finish and overall build quality and components.... if the PM-1228 exactly the same (features, weight and all) but of Taiwan quality, 20% more premium than the china PM-1228.... it's a no brainer but that doesn't exist .    So I'm right in the middle of spending a lot more or taking a risk (albeit, hopefully a small one) on the PM-1228.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 2, 2022)

It’s easy to over analyze things, especially when you can’t get your hands on them to compare.  I’m guilty of that frequently.  I think the 1236T is the better lathe and long term better value, but I don’t think I would have bought it at today’s prices.  You will probably be happy with either lathe, the 1228, or PM1236 might need some more fine tuning than the Taiwanese 1236T, but as long as you go in knowing some work might be required, you should be happy with it.

Since you are in Ohio, have you checked out HRG?  They have a lot of industrial equipment, but they also do have some smaller lathes.  You always have the risk of needing to fix things, but you might be able to get something in your size range at significantly less than the PM machines.  If you come across an Emco Super 11 for the same price or lower as the 1228 and in good condition, drop what you are doing and buy it!  Seriously, they are great machines and what I wanted, but I was never quick enough when one came up for sale near me.  I’m happy with my 1236T, but if an Emco came up for sale locally, I would be very tempted to get it.


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> Since you are in Ohio, have you checked out HRG? They have a lot of industrial equipment, but they also do have some smaller lathes. You always have the risk of needing to fix things, but you might be able to get something in your size range at significantly less than the PM machines. If you come across an Emco Super 11 for the same price or lower as the 1228 and in good condition, drop what you are doing and buy it!


Not sure what HRG is... I'll have to google and find out.  I'll check the Emco Super 11... but the first one I found in Kansas on ebay was like $7K and support/parts may be hard to come buy.


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## 7milesup (Jul 2, 2022)

skcncx said:


> @7milesup What were those "limitations" you found?  Anything a deal breaker?  I assume the 1228 is a bit more robust than the 1022 but still very similar in many ways.


I had a few projects that I just could not get into my lathe due to length, one of them consisting of turning some rollers for a conveyor belt.  Those conveyor rollers were pretty much a one-off deal but I did have other projects that didn't fit.  Bore size was an issue too since it was just a touch under 1".   PM advertises the 1022 and 1030 as a 1" bore, but they are slightly less because it is a metric size.  Also, as you well know that once you add in a live center or a drill chuck on the tailstock the useable length quickly diminishes.
I also owned a PM833T at the same time and the difference in fit and finish between the Chinese lathe and the Taiwan Mill was apparent, such as the quality of the handles and fit and finish of the castings, etc.
Considering the prices of imports now, it may be worth looking around for a good used lathe if you have the time to do so.  There are still deals out there but the caveat is you have to have the cash in hand and be ready to hop in the truck and travel a bit.  I just bought a Sharp mill to replace the 833T and literally bought it over the phone.  I sent the guy $500 through PayPal to hold it and then drove a little over two hours each way to get it.  It will be the last mill I buy...maybe


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Bore size was an issue too since it was just a touch under 1". PM advertises the 1022 and 1030 as a 1" bore, but they are slightly less because it is a metric size. Also, as you well know that once you add in a live center or a drill chuck on the tailstock the useable length quickly diminishes.
> I also owned a PM833T at the same time and the difference in fit and finish between the Chinese lathe and the Taiwan Mill was apparent, such as the quality of the handles and fit and finish of the castings, etc.


Thanks for the input....

I'm ok with limitations being those things... and I did talk with PM... they were ensuring me the bore size is 1.5" actual size for the 1228... so 1.5" stock won't fit... but even 1"+ bore would be huge for me... as I have been turning a lot of 1" aluminum bar stock.

I can look past and sacrifice fit and finish on hand wheels for cost savings.... I just don't want to do that much for the things that really matter.

Overall, for the length of things I turn on my Atlas 618 I haven't had an issue after adding drill chucks, etc... Now, granted a 18" to 28" center to center is only 10" longer and I assume anything in the tail stock will stick out farther being it larger, I'll probably only realize about 8" in gain... but I'm pretty confident I'm ok with that. 

I'm totally open to used lathe... but those prices are sky high now if it's not a fixer upper, full restoration.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 2, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Not sure what HRG is... I'll have to google and find out.  I'll check the Emco Super 11... but the first one I found in Kansas on ebay was like $7K and support/parts may be hard to come buy.


Sorry, got the letters mixed up, it’s HGR. https://hgrinc.com/


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## mksj (Jul 2, 2022)

Regarding chucks, if you work with any square stock or rectangular you would want a 4J independent and/or you do not have an accurate 3J and need to dial down the TIR. A 8" 4J also works well for larger stock. Any type of small stock can be a challenge to hold in a 3J as it wants to push out between the jaws. Collets do not damage the part, such as holding threads and softer materials. With ER collet you need to hold stock that is at least 3/4 of the way into the collet, with 5C I have held parts with a depth of 0.1". ER collets have higher holding power than a 5C although this has not been an issue in my experience (I have both types of collets). I use a speed handle on my 5C which makes changing collets much quicker and I do not need wrenches/lock the spindle needed for an ER collet systems. I do a lot of small repetitive work where the piece may be in/out of the chuck a dozen times, so having minimal run-out becomes important. I also do a lot of turning close to the chuck, collets are a lot safer then my gnarly 3J. 

So it all depends on the type of work you are doing. They all have their place, and often you will have a project that will only work with one style of chuck. You can get cheaper 4J independent chucks, but I had a Chinese made one on my 1340GT and it was so out of balance that I couldn't get it past 400 RPM. It got replaced with the PM/QMT Taiwanese 4J independent direct D1-4 mount and it runs smooth up to the maximum speed ~2000 RPM.


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## Christianstark (Jul 2, 2022)

This portion of your post gives me a moment of pause in suggesting chasing accuracy with a more precisely built lathe.

“Bench top on a sturdy rolling workbench is absolute requirement.”

For what you described, I would suggest the Chinese lathe. But I may be dead wrong. Scope creep is real, and you may find yourself branching out.  I saw you mention the GT1340, which I have. A rolling cart or bench won’t cut it with that.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 2, 2022)

skcncx said:


> I really wanted a Taig... but I realized it's just too small.... wish they would design a next size up model.  I'd be fine in the 10x22 size range... but once you get to the 12" size you start having the QCGB and isolated feed and threading shafts.



I've warmed up to the Taig lathes. I still prefer the Sherline as a more refined tool, but Taig is far more affordable and the design is highly adaptable. Both companies have been very good about continued development to meet their customer needs. 
I don't have any time yet on my 6" Craftsman (618) as I've had to strip it down and reassemble due to years of dried up oil, but I can see why they have been popular all these years. They really stand out being larger than the Taig or Sherline, but in my opinion better built than most of the Chinese 7" and 8" lathes. 

I contemplated a new lathe years ago when things were cheaper. I was primarily looking at PM with the 1022, 1127 and 1228. I fell into a great deal on a vintage 11x24 which has set me firmly into the vintage machine camp, but I completely understand the new now vs vintage tomorrow, next year, 3 years from now crap shoot. With all you've said and Christian's comment about the effects of putting a 1236T on a rolling stand (eliminating some of the point of spending the extra money), the 1228 sounds like it makes sense for you.



Ischgl99 said:


> The cost of shipping containers is responsible for some of the cost increase of Asian lathes that the US manufacturers do not have to deal with.  In the case of my 1236T, I’m estimating you can fit 15 of them in a 40 ft container.  With the cost increasing from about $2,000 two years ago to $20,000+ last year, that adds over $1,000 to the cost just from shipping.
> 
> I would have loved to get an Emco lathe, but I don’t want to even imagine what they would cost new today!



Shipping containers explains a lot. I don't follow shipping at all, but a 10x price increase just to get goods to dock is going to take a big bite. A lot of the Chinese machinery also falls under the 25% tariff, and then you add in the current inflation, fuel prices and general market instability.  



Christianstark said:


> This portion of your post gives me a moment of pause in suggesting chasing accuracy with a more precisely built lathe.
> 
> “Bench top on a sturdy rolling workbench is absolute requirement.”
> 
> For what you described, I would suggest the Chinese lathe. But I may be dead wrong. Scope creep is real, and you may find yourself branching out.  I saw you mention the GT1340, which I have. A rolling cart or bench won’t cut it with that.



That is a good point, if he is going to jump in the deep end paying for higher precision, it kind of defeats the point if it is not going on a stand that will maximize the lathes capabilities.


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## Toro5xi (Jul 2, 2022)

Timely topic.  I just put down a deposit on a 1228.  If space were not an issue I would go with the 1236T.  I have a habit of second guessing myself down the road and have cost myself by not spending more the first time.
Im going with the 1228 as I need to pull in and out machinery and also have to paint on occasion in my limited work space.  Like you quality was a big factor.  I also considered the Grizzly South Bend heavy 10 but want to stick with PM and the cost seems pretty high on the Grizzly but sure looks nice.  Good luck with your decision.


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## mikey (Jul 2, 2022)

skcncx said:


> If it was only 20% increase, that's a no brainer.  It's more like x + 60%.  For my use and setup, that's the hard decision.  That extra $3K in the long term isn't that much... but if I don't need to why spend it.
> 
> *Based prices (no DRO or QCTP and similar included accessories)*
> PM-1228VF-LB - $4,400
> ...


Just wanted to add a bit more perspective. Back in the late 1990's, a brand new Emco Super 11 cost $7K bare except for a 3 jaw chuck. Everything else was ala carte. To get it functional, it cost close to 10K and then you had to ship it. For that amount you got a superb little tool room quality lathe.

Today, you can buy a PM1236T for nearly the same price but with more accessories. While it sucks that tariffs/shipping and whatever jacked the price up, this is what it costs. Given the difference in quality, weight, rigidity and I suspect the spindle accuracy over time, the 1236T is going to be a better buy vs the Chinese 1236.

You are going to find that you cannot add in quality after the sale. You also cannot add rigidity or power or precision. About all you can do is fix what the maker didn't get right given the price point. After all these years, I have learned to buy what I need/want the first time instead of settling for less, and this especially applies to expensive machine tools.

If the price of a new lathe sticks in your craw, wait for a used one or a better deal to come along. You're still learning to use your Atlas and there is much it can teach you.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 2, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Shipping containers explains a lot. I don't follow shipping at all, but a 10x price increase just to get goods to dock is going to take a big bite. A lot of the Chinese machinery also falls under the 25% tariff, and then you add in the current inflation, fuel prices and general market instability.


Yes, it is really shocking how much that has increased.  The shipping companies barely scrape by most years, so they are enjoying this windfall, but hopefully it gets back down to reasonable levels soon, we are going to run out of people with enough disposable income to pay these prices.  It looks like the current rates are half of what they reached at the peak, time will tell if that translates into lower product prices, or the companies try and keep them at current levels.


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

mksj said:


> Regarding chucks, if you work with any square stock or rectangular you would want a 4J independent and/or you do not have an accurate 3J and need to dial down the TIR. A 8" 4J also works well for larger stock. Any type of small stock can be a challenge to hold in a 3J as it wants to push out between the jaws. Collets do not damage the part, such as holding threads and softer materials. With ER collet you need to hold stock that is at least 3/4 of the way into the collet, with 5C I have held parts with a depth of 0.1". ER collets have higher holding power than a 5C although this has not been an issue in my experience (I have both types of collets). I use a speed handle on my 5C which makes changing collets much quicker and I do not need wrenches/lock the spindle needed for an ER collet systems. I do a lot of small repetitive work where the piece may be in/out of the chuck a dozen times, so having minimal run-out becomes important. I also do a lot of turning close to the chuck, collets are a lot safer then my gnarly 3J.
> 
> So it all depends on the type of work you are doing. They all have their place, and often you will have a project that will only work with one style of chuck. You can get cheaper 4J independent chucks, but I had a Chinese made one on my 1340GT and it was so out of balance that I couldn't get it past 400 RPM. It got replaced with the PM/QMT Taiwanese 4J independent direct D1-4 mount and it runs smooth up to the maximum speed ~2000 RPM.
> 
> ...


Nice setup... yes, I think a collet chuck will be in my sights in the future for sure... not sure 5C or ER40... I have heard about those dynamics you mention... ER collets needing more grip on the part where as 5C can grip very little... as well as a bit safer and easier to get close to the chuck.. which I have done with a very conscious effort to keep an eye on my saddle, cutter and fingers. 

Hard to tell from the last pic, but that's about as large of a item I would turn.  That's also a pretty nice looking collet wrench.


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> This portion of your post gives me a moment of pause in suggesting chasing accuracy with a more precisely built lathe.
> 
> “Bench top on a sturdy rolling workbench is absolute requirement.”
> 
> For what you described, I would suggest the Chinese lathe. But I may be dead wrong. Scope creep is real, and you may find yourself branching out.  I saw you mention the GT1340, which I have. A rolling cart or bench won’t cut it with that.


Yea, I think my mobility and cart would have to have a serious upgrade if I were to put a 1236T on it... that's 850 lbs of just static weight... not even considering when you start turning things.  The 1340 it out by a large margin just based on size.  Even with the 1228, I may custom weld a tubular bench frame together and slide in tool chests... the tool chest would not be the main structure.... I guess it was just a lot easier to get away with this setup with the Atlas 618 being so much lighter.  

One thing is for certain... my shop layout changes based on projects and addition and removal of tools (like a larger lathe . That can be monthly. so it has to be a relatively quick (15-30) minutes to lower casters and move stuff around.  My SawStop table saw has a really nice way it uses a gas cylynder lift raise it up so it can roll on caster then lowered so the feet are on the concreate floor, casters essentially carrying no weight.

Scope creep for sure... I don't want to have to chase the best of the best for every thing I put on the lathe... I see myself looking for deals and find that shars (new to me) has a good array of products, cutters, etc...


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> That is a good point, if he is going to jump in the deep end paying for higher precision, it kind of defeats the point if it is not going on a stand that will maximize the lathes capabilities.


Yea, right... if I pay the extra the totally mitigate it by not setting it up right... I guess, what has done for me... the 1236T has be rethinking how my base/bench it sits on would work if I go that route.


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

Toro5xi said:


> Timely topic.  I just put down a deposit on a 1228.  If space were not an issue I would go with the 1236T.  I have a habit of second guessing myself down the road and have cost myself by not spending more the first time.
> Im going with the 1228 as I need to pull in and out machinery and also have to paint on occasion in my limited work space.  Like you quality was a big factor.  I also considered the Grizzly South Bend heavy 10 but want to stick with PM and the cost seems pretty high on the Grizzly but sure looks nice.  Good luck with your decision.


Nice!  Any idea when you'll get it?  ... I wish I had the patience to wait and see how you like it... from uncrating to using it.


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## Toro5xi (Jul 2, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Nice!  Any idea when you'll get it?  ... I wish I had the patience to wait and see how you like it... from uncrating to using it.


Unfortunately it looks like October.  I almost did the 1130 with DRO because looks like July is the time frame for that Lathe but trying to actually follow my own advice and wait for the one I think would fit my needs the best.  I got to admit if PM said the 1236T would be available in July I would probably sign up for another credit card.  October feels like a long wait.


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## davidpbest (Jul 2, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Nice setup... yes, I think a collet chuck will be in my sights in the future for sure... not sure 5C or ER40... I have heard about those dynamics you mention... ER collets needing more grip on the part where as 5C can grip very little... as well as a bit safer and easier to get close to the chuck.. which I have done with a very conscious effort to keep an eye on my saddle, cutter and fingers.
> 
> Hard to tell from the last pic, but that's about as large of a item I would turn.  That's also a pretty nice looking collet wrench.


Read the attached before you decide between the two types of collet chucks.  Also attached is my curated list of other tools and accessories you'll be considering at some point.  And most newbies have fits getting down good parting operations, so I'm attaching a writeup on that topic for your reading enjoyment.

I've resisted making commentary on your "which lathe" quandary thus far, but thought I'd chime in with a few comments.  "Fit and Finish" doesn't capture the difference between Taiwan and mainland Chinese equipment.  Both employ soft and crumbly body filler to smooth out the castings which will break away when hit with something hard leaving a nasty scar.  The paint used in both situations is pretty crappy also and is prone to chipping under normal working conditions.  So the "Finish" part is not a lot different, and, so much to the ridicule of many here, I strip down to bare castings and apply industrial coatings - even on equipment from Taiwan.  I don't recommend you consider this unless you have the necessary mechanical aptitude and perfectionist tendencies.  

The Taiwanese equipment from PM is certainly better quality - the cast iron is better quality, the gears in the head are hardened, the bearings are much high quality, the way surfaces are more precise, etc.  But the Taiwanese equipment isn't German or Swiss level either - the gibs are pretty rough and just grossly fitted, some of the tapped holes are done by hand, and the factory makes an occassional mistake in handwheel markings, mis-marked gears, etc.  So don't expect perfection for the extra $$.  

I won't put an 800 pound 1236T on a roll-around tool box and expect to do precision work with it.  That machine deserves a solid base to stay aligned.  I haven't seen the subject of motor size/HP come up in this thread, and I have no experience with the 1228, but my guess is the 1236T will support material removal rates twice that of a 1228 due to the motor and rigidity differences.  

If you're actually thinking this is a decision on a "trainer" lathe, one to be used to learn on and upgrade later, then maybe resale value comes into the decision - my guess is there's more used machine residual value in a Taiwanese lathe than one from the mainland.

Before getting my 1340GT I had an Emco V-10P - outstanding small lathe made in Switzerland.  I migrated to the 1340 to get a machine with more capacity and power.  But you might consider the following lathe.  I have no affiliation, not do I know the true condition, but an Emco holds value and is every bit a toolroom quality machine.









						Emco Maximat Mentor V10p Lathe 110vac or 220vac New pics and additions  | eBay
					

Emco V10P 7 1/2" back plate ( as a driver plate or chuck backplate). Emco Imperial threading dial. Emco TP wrench. Emco carriage stop. Emco 4-1/2 in 3 jaw scroll with chuck key (last 2 pics). Emco 4-1/2 in 4 jaw scroll with chuck key (last 2 pics).



					www.ebay.com
				




Hope this helps

David


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## Winegrower (Jul 2, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> Before getting my 1340GT I had an Emco V-10P


David, it looks like there is a handle on the end of the lead screw…how is this intended to be used?


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

Toro5xi said:


> Unfortunately it looks like October.  I almost did the 1130 with DRO because looks like July is the time frame for that Lathe but trying to actually follow my own advice and wait for the one I think would fit my needs the best.  I got to admit if PM said the 1236T would be available in July I would probably sign up for another credit card.  October feels like a long wait.


I hear ya, was surprised about the availability of the 1130 as well.... but totally worth the wait for the 1228.. from my perspective, for nothing more than the quick change gear box... though, the 1130 has a traditional VFD setup for the motor, where as the electronics on the 1228 are proprietary.... that only matters if it breaks or you would want to change it up or it's out of support and parts cannot be had.  AC, DC, BLDC... in my opinion, as long as it has the torque and spins the head and is reliable, I don't have much concern the specifics beyond that.... 

In your boat as well, if the 1236T was ready for pick up now... that may sway me as well, even if the 1236T makes me do a bit more for the bench it sits on since it's 350 Lb more than the 1228.


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## skcncx (Jul 2, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> Read the attached before you decide between the two types of collet chucks.  Also attached is my curated list of other tools and accessories you'll be considering at some point.  And most newbies have fits getting down good parting operations, so I'm attaching a writeup on that topic for your reading enjoyment.
> 
> I've resisted making commentary on your "which lathe" quandary thus far, but thought I'd chime in with a few comments.  "Fit and Finish" doesn't capture the difference between Taiwan and mainland Chinese equipment.  Both employ soft and crumbly body filler to smooth out the castings which will break away when hit with something hard leaving a nasty scar.  The paint used in both situations is pretty crappy also and is prone to chipping under normal working conditions.  So the "Finish" part is not a lot different, and, so much to the ridicule of many here, I strip down to bare castings and apply industrial coatings - even on equipment from Taiwan.  I don't recommend you consider this unless you have the necessary mechanical aptitude and perfectionist tendencies.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input, I'll read those docs later!! As well for the input on the Taiwan stuff isn't perfect either.  

I am certainly no thinking this is a trainer lathe, but I will be learning and training on it , but not for the purpose just to sell and upgrade... hence my dilemma as what to spend the $$ on.  I think the 1228 and 1236T would serve me for many years to come if they are dependable.

The 1228 has a 2HP and 1236T has a 1.5 HP... but that's probably a big lie, since the 1228 2HP is on 110 v so that's like saying you have a 6 HP shop vac... just because it can spin fast, no torque.  The 1236T is 220 v... actual 2HP with more torque I assume.

Probably not a good philosophy, but I don't buy based on resale value... though resale value does help when you sell it, but I don't plan to do this for years to come and if I get all the satisfaction out of it after 5-10 years... well, I'll give it to someone or sell it to someone who will take good care of it and get more usefulness out of it.... not trying to recoup my investment.


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## davidpbest (Jul 2, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> David, it looks like there is a handle on the end of the lead screw…how is this intended to be used?


That's for manually positioning the cross slide.  For lathe operations, it's not very useful, but what you don't see on that Emco is the optional milling head assembly.  Here's a photo of another Emco with the milling head that attaches to the back of the boxed ways - the carriage becomes the XY table for milling ops.  So that handle is used to manually adjust the position of the "table" along the Z-axis and since it's done with a leadscrew (precision), the handle has the typical graduations for position.


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## davidpbest (Jul 2, 2022)

skcncx said:


> The 1228 has a 2HP and 1236T has a 1.5 HP... but that's probably a big lie, since the 1228 2HP is on 110 v so that's like saying you have a 6 HP shop vac... just because it can spin fast, no torque.  The 1236T is 220 v... actual 2HP with more torque I assume.


The 1228 motor is a DC brushless unit, and although the specs say it's 2HP, my guess is those are different sized horses than the ones plowing on the 1236T 220VAC motor.  Torque is a function of the gearing selected, and more of a factor in operations like tapping than in facing or turning operations.


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## Aurelius (Jul 3, 2022)

I'm still very new to all this, but I will chime in to give the other perspective.
I got a 1288 earlier this year (managed to order 1 week after the prices jumped <ouch>).  
There are a couple of reasons I chose that model.  I had been doing the internet research, reading as much as I could on the forums, etc. and was slowly working my way up in size.  For me, the main issues boiled down to:

-Size - I needed something that I (or someone else) could get down a flight of stairs into my basement.

-Power requirements - While I was willing to have an electrician come out, I was not ready to wire up the basement for 220V so 110V had to do.

-Gearbox - I know it's not relevant to your decision, but for me the gearbox on the 1228 vs the 1030 was a huge step up.

-Fit for Purpose - this is the thing that I feel hasn't been discussed as much in this thread.  I'm going to be working almost exclusively on parts that are less that 5" so the bed length was fine and not a deciding factor by any means.  Also, I dug into comments about the accuracy people were getting on their machines and, while the 1228 was better, the 1030 would have probably been good enough for what I am doing.  Not wanting to rely on "probably" was a large part of the the decision to get the 1228.  It sounds like the parts you are looking to make would be more than served by either unit.

I will admit that the Chinese origins are showing through in places.  The pain looks like it was apply by a preschooler and is already coming off in places.  I saw a thread on this forum about tailstock locks and checked mine out and then contacted Pm because I thought mine was missing but it turned out to just have been painted over.  In addition, the screw that was in the hole is not the size specified on the drawing in the manual.  After some back and forth with PM tech support it was basically "I hate it when they change stuff and don't tell us".  I don't know if that's permanent or just something that was specific to that production run, but are the types of things you are going to have to keep an eye out for.  

You had mentioned wanting to put the lathe on a toolbox instead of the factory stand.   I opted to forego the factory stand (heard some less than stellar reviews) and have mine mounted on a Husky worktable.  It's not the adjustable one that you can crank up and down and it's actually surprisingly good.  It is trated for a couple thousand pounds, the wood top was plenty thick enouigh for me to drill holes and securely mount the lathe, and the table was adjustable enouigh allowed me to set the height fairly low so the machine is at almost exactly the right height for me to work it comfortably.  I'm still working out what, if any, storage I'm going to put underneath and for now I have an old shoe rack that is serving as a shelf that I keep the unused chucks on so they are nearby and accessible.

I briefly looked at the 1236 and the main reasons I didn't go that route were the fact that I might not have been able to get it into the space and I didn't want to have to deal with an electrician to wire the basement for 220V.

One things that I will mention since you had talked about possibly upgrading in the future.  The QCTP on the 1228 is AXA and almost anything that would be an upgrade will likely be BXA which means that any future upgrade will likley also require you to upgrade all your tooling as well.  Probably not a deal breaker, but it makes the future cost of the upgrade potentially much more expensive and could tilt the current calculus toward just going with the bigger tool now.

I had always been taught to always buy the best tool you can afford but also to make sure it does what you need to do.  If you have the space and the cash for the 1236, I doubt you will be upset but I am also a litttle wary that you "need" the 1236.  Spending money for the capability to handle hypothetical future projects is a big, potentially expensive gamble.  Spending the time to figure out what you need versus what you want will likley save you a lot of money in the long run.


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## skcncx (Jul 3, 2022)

*Glad to hear and if I'm reading correctly... you are overall very satisfied with your 1228.  Sounds like we are in a similar boat as far as needs and wants and what we're willing to spend.*

I assume accuracy on the things that matter are there.... I'm jumping up from an Atlas 618, so it feels like a 1236T (Taiwan) or the 1228 will be a huge leap in features, robustness (deeper cuts) and a bit nicer to operate with the extra features... that takes nothing away from the Atlas 618.  I just want something as or more accurate in a larger size and extra features (QCGB and DRO)... already am used to the QCTP (OXA size)

I'm finding it difficult to express and understand "accuracy" and what that means to me and what it means to others... I mean, is .001 accurate, over what distance, for what part, for what purpose, etc... It's a loaded and broad question with too many caveats and nuances.

I have a couple 240v in my shop, so being it's a one man shop, that's not an issue even if I have to switch plugs between stuff.... but it is nice that any 20amp 120 outlet can run the 1228.



Aurelius said:


> -Gearbox - I know it's not relevant to your decision, but for me the gearbox on the 1228 vs the 1030 was a huge step up.


A QCGB is a MUST for me, that's why I'm not even considering the 1030 or 1130.



Aurelius said:


> Also, I dug into comments about the accuracy people were getting on their machines and, while the 1228 was better, the 1030 would have probably been good enough for what I am doing. Not wanting to rely on "probably" was a large part of the the decision to get the 1228


I assume the 1030, 1130 and 1228 are all pretty much the same as accuracy and build quality and just vary on size and features... I would hope the 1228 is better just because it's more $, but I assume a lot of the cost increase is the other features and its size....



Aurelius said:


> I will admit that the Chinese origins are showing through in places.


For me, as long as the major stuff is right... I'll be ok getting past the little things... but the gamble with these can be every 1228 crate you open could vary a bit... so one persons success could be another's frustration.



Aurelius said:


> You had mentioned wanting to put the lathe on a toolbox instead of the factory stand.


Yep, the factory stands seem like a horrible use of space below and not moveable.  When I read users saying they are flimsy... seems like a rolling tool chest is a better option anyway if you get a heavy duty one.... load it up with weight and are now adding a fair amount of mass to the structure... I've considered adding a 1/2" steel plate to the top, and the lathe on top of it. The rolling tool chest, likely a 24" deep by 60" long is an easy thing... you get a lot for your money... granted, as some have noted, they really aren't rated for lots of active forces... and partly why the 1228 is a bit nicer being less weight than the 1236T... granted you are sacrificing rigidness and heft which is important to turning.



Aurelius said:


> The QCTP on the 1228 is AXA and almost anything that would be an upgrade will likely be BXA which means that any future upgrade will likley also require you to upgrade all your tooling as well.


Before I put my order in... I really need to understand what the BXA provides over the AXA... I have the OXA now, I figured they just get bigger in part to match the size of the lathe... I guess I could put a BXA on the 1228, would need to check sizes, may not be a good fit.



Aurelius said:


> I had always been taught to always buy the best tool you can afford but also to make sure it does what you need to do. If you have the space and the cash for the 1236, I doubt you will be upset but I am also a litttle wary that you "need" the 1236.


Same here, it does pay to spend extra up front.. as other have noted, I can't add quality and accuracy to the base machine afterward, just accessories and why build on a bad foundations to start.... I'm not putting an all stainless steel muffler on my 188K mile F150.  My quandary of 1228 or the 1236T (not the 1236) is just that.  The extra size of the 1228 is my prefect max size.. the 1236T is pushing it a bit and the weight requires me to good a little deeper in the pocket book for a proper stand that could roll as necessary. But if it is the next level of fit, quality, features accuracy... it' worth it and I know I wouldn't regret it.... but speculation as you can say can get expensive.  Just glad I'm not taking my up or down stairs.


----------



## Aaron_W (Jul 3, 2022)

I thought he might chime in but @Aukai recently upgraded from a 1228 to a (I believe) PM1340. He probably just hasn't looked into this thread, maybe now he will.

I think looking at the 1228 as an improved 1022/30 or 1127/1130 is probably a safe assumption rather than thinking of it as a short 1236. I understand your dilemma 1236T with DRO will run you an extra $2500-3000, and maybe you appreciate the difference or maybe you just spent 50% more than you had too.


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## Aukai (Jul 3, 2022)

I had the 1228, and was happy with it, it is one size step under the "bigger" lathes, and has more of their features. It is still in the "little" lathe category, mine used AXA QCTH. I never ran out of chuck size, but I did run out of bed length with my aluminum bat, and 15" drill bits. I am also happier with the 1340 size, if I bought the 1236T first I probably would not have had to buy a 2nd lathe.


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## Dabbler (Jul 3, 2022)

I would upgrade to the the one you can fit with an AC drive such as the 12xx series.  Our town has a forum for machinists and a bunch bought those DC variable drive lathes.  4 are out of commission right now.  Yes 4, out of about 20.  I cannot recommend those lathes with the DC variable drives in them, despite Blondihacks doing good work with hers. 

I think it would be good to say that the 1236T is a 'lifetime lathe'  and the 1236 from China to be a lighter duty version of the 1236T.


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## SRay53TxTn (Jul 3, 2022)

I purchased the PM1228 due to space and 220v availability. I have been pleased with my purchase and yes it is my first lathe and was a retirement gift to myself. I only have access to 1/2 of my two car garage (wife likes her car on the other side). I have built several tools, made parts, and have done a couple rifle barrels with NO problems. Only issue,  had to replace  the drive belt and belt tensioner bearing. Made a spider for the spindle so I could do the 30” rifle barrels and can perform all the threading & chambering with excellent accuracy, the PM 4 jaw 8” independent chuck was a must for all the close tolerance work. It fits nicely in my limited space and does all I need it to do.


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## skcncx (Jul 3, 2022)

Aukai said:


> I had the 1228, and was happy with it, it is one size step under the "bigger" lathes, and has more of their features. It is still in the "little" lathe category, mine used AXA QCTH. I never ran out of chuck size, but I did run out of bed length with my aluminum bat, and 15" drill bits. I am also happier with the 1340 size, if I bought the 1236T first I probably would not have had to buy a 2nd lathe.


So was the bed length the only/primary reason to upgrade... anything else?  Or another way of asking that... if the 1228 was "magically" longer, would you have still switched to the 1340?

As far as accuracy, general usage, handles, smoothness, etc... how does the 1228 compare to your 1340.... subjective question I know, but like 50% there, 95% as good or reliable?


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## skcncx (Jul 3, 2022)

SRay53TxTn said:


> I purchased the PM1228 due to space and 220v availability. I have been pleased with my purchase and yes it is my first lathe and was a retirement gift to myself. I only have access to 1/2 of my two car garage (wife likes her car on the other side). I have built several tools, made parts, and have done a couple rifle barrels with NO problems. Only issue,  had to replace  the drive belt and belt tensioner bearing. Made a spider for the spindle so I could do the 30” rifle barrels and can perform all the threading & chambering with excellent accuracy, the PM 4 jaw 8” independent chuck was a must for all the close tolerance work. It fits nicely in my limited space and does all I need it to do.


Nice, plus 1 for the 1228.

Is that common to get more length out of a lathe to use a spider or just pushing your material back into the bore of the head stock?  Would that have been necessary for your 30" rifle barrel regardless of having a lathe with enough length?

I think I need to take my 3 jaw off my atlas, put my 4 jaw on, learn how to dial it in to know what I've been missing... I've just done so much with my 3 jaw on my atlas and been very pleased... but again, I've only been clamping round and a few hex shaped stuff.


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## skcncx (Jul 3, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> I would upgrade to the the one you can fit with an AC drive such as the 12xx series.  Our town has a forum for machinists and a bunch bought those DC variable drive lathes.  4 are out of commission right now.  Yes 4, out of about 20.  I cannot recommend those lathes with the DC variable drives in them, despite Blondihacks doing good work with hers.
> 
> I think it would be good to say that the 1236T is a 'lifetime lathe'  and the 1236 from China to be a lighter duty version of the 1236T.


I've heard that sentiment and leeriness regarding BLDC motors, I'd be curious to know the overall failure/replacement rate.. but in your example 20% is pretty high.  That is one downside to the 1228 having very specific/proprietary controller board for the motor... not easily replaced.  BLDC motors are great for being so small... but that's a downside if you want or need to retrofit... as the available space could be a major issue, trying to find a replacement motor of similar size.

However, the range of RPM on the 1228 is much better once you pass the 1000.  The 1236T jumps from 1100 to 1800, nothing in between.  1228 would hit anything between 1000 and it's 2000 max.  Right or wrong, but I have turned a lot of 1" diameter aluminum with the AR Warner HSS T-15 inserts at 1500... maybe that's crazy fast, but I got decent results.

It's likely the 1228 could be a lifetime but no doubt the 1236T..


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## Aukai (Jul 3, 2022)

I could have worked with a longer bed 1228, the through bore prevents me from going through head stock even with the 1340. I'm turning 1 3/4, and 2" aluminum bar.


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## markba633csi (Jul 3, 2022)

BLDC motors with exotic proprietary controllers seem to be the ones that fail- true DC drives with brush-type motors are usually more reliable
and can be retrofitted with aftermarket scr speed controls pretty easily


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## mksj (Jul 3, 2022)

skcncx said:


> However, the range of RPM on the 1228 is much better once you pass the 1000. The 1236T jumps from 1100 to 1800, nothing in between. 1228 would hit anything between 1000 and it's 2000 max. Right or wrong, but I have turned a lot of 1" diameter aluminum with the AR Warner HSS T-15 inserts at 1500... maybe that's crazy fast, but I got decent results.


One of the many reasons to go 3 phase with a VFD. It gives variable speed which often needs to be dialed in tightly for large boring and drilling. You also do not have the issues with the start capacitor failing from repeated stops and the lathe not reversing which is a common problem when single phase motors are reversed quickly. You also get very quick braking (1-2 seconds) which is important on a lathe w/o a foot brake. That and the surface finish issues got me into using VFD's and 3 phase motors on lathes years ago. Proprietary drives and BLDC motors have been a bit of a nightmare for mill and lathe owners, my last mill used one and the replacement board was close to $1K. I decided to sell it before it broke. The 3 phase motors will operate for decades with almost no maintenance and extreme operating conditions.

Unfortunately it all comes down to the costs, the sad part is costs are up significantly from a few years ago. There is also the inventory issue and what your timing is. Most of us suggesting buy bigger and better, is probably because we have all gone through the same process and ultimately upgraded (either new or used). I started out looking at small lathes, as I had limited space but years ago I ended up with a 1340GT (1236T was not available). I though it was more than I needed, but ended up being a very good choice and always enjoyed using it. I ultimately sold it, rather than move it to my new house, and purchased another 1340 which was much heavier. They both do very high level work, and I have no regrets with either. If I hadn't been all tooled up for this size machine I would have gone with the 1440TL when they still were affordable. If I had to buy everything today, it would be very difficult decision given the significant price increases. When starting out you do not know if you will get deeper into machining or the machine will be a boat anchor in your garage.


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## Toro5xi (Jul 4, 2022)

So many factors come into play when deciding on equipment.  I’ll throw out one more.  I had a 1934 13 inch South Bend lathe in Ohio.  I did not use it a whole lot but it was my first lathe and just thought It was the greatest thing having a Piece of equipment that had been around so long and still worked so well.  
Well job change took us down to Georgia and had to sell lathe.  Just wasn’t feasible to move.  Another job change a short time later, wife this time, and decided could only keep wood working equipment this time.  Sold my milling machine.  
After a year of not having any ability to machine metal I broke down and got a PM728 and put a deposit down on a 1228.  I would like to go bigger but realize moving is going to be a reality for us and want to be able to hold onto my equipment this time.


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## SRay53TxTn (Jul 4, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Nice, plus 1 for the 1228.
> 
> Is that common to get more length out of a lathe to use a spider or just pushing your material back into the bore of the head stock?  Would that have been necessary for your 30" rifle barrel regardless of having a lathe with enough length?
> 
> I think I need to take my 3 jaw off my atlas, put my 4 jaw on, learn how to dial it in to know what I've been missing... I've just done so much with my 3 jaw on my atlas and been very pleased... but again, I've only been clamping round and a few hex shaped stuff.


When I was looking for my lathe all the local used were heavily used and needed more repairs than I felt comfortable with, plus getting some of the older parts was difficult.
One of my machinist buddies who was also a gunsmith, said the lathe spider would provide enough centering of the barrel mass to perform most barrel work if the spindle bore diameter was large enough for the pass through, the 1.5" bore works well for my use. It is not turning at a very high rpm for those operations, especially the final chambering steps. Plus I have added bearing to steady rest to assist if needed for any project requiring it..
I had read a lot of reviews and article on scroll chucks and some have excellent TIR, however, being a newbie to the lathe I wanted to have the independent 4 jaw as one of my setup checks for all my close tolerance work. I have found I can dial it down to the .0001 or dead zero range reasonably quickly, since it is part of my close tolerance setup routine.

I sold some car parts and other items and also purchased a PM728-VT mill; awesome as well. Here's a couple pics of my mini shop setup.

Tooling will be a fun and expensive part of the journey.

*Have a Happy & Safe July 4th!*


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## Dabbler (Jul 4, 2022)

skcncx said:


> The 1236T jumps from 1100 to 1800, nothing in between.





mksj said:


> One of the many reasons to go 3 phase with a VFD.


My thoughts exactly.  With the 1236, you can change out the motor later if that works for you.  Since you primarily use HSS, those high speeds may not ba s critical for the moment.


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## mksj (Jul 4, 2022)

Actually change out the motor is not so easy on that lathe, it requires a TENV type, and very few are short enough to fit. Marathon E467, BlackMax Y551, Baldor IDNM3587T  are the most common , but expensive unless you can find one on eBay at a reasonable price. All TEFC motors will not fit and also metric frames with fan cooling will not fit. You would be better off getting the stock 3 phase motor and a static converter or a home-built RPC for starters, but you are close to the cost of a VFD.


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## Dabbler (Jul 4, 2022)

@mksj - I hope we are referring to the same thing?  

I was thinking he could later easily swap out the AC motor as an upgrade to 3 phase on either of the 1236 lathes as they have TEFC motors.  

If I was unclear I apologize.


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## matthewsx (Jul 4, 2022)

Agree it would be best to get the 3ph unit stock and go with a static converter. Or just have @mksj do a conversion right away.

So, to summarize. 

1. PM1236T 3ph
2. VFD conversion
3. Custom built stand per @davidpbest with tool chest underneath
4. Caster system or palette jack to move it around
5. Tooling as needed starting with BXA QCTP and 5c collet chuck

Anything else?

See how good we are at spending your money  

John

P.S. Do you also need a mill?


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## Dabbler (Jul 4, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> See how good we are at spending your money


This might price him out of the market.  100% agree this is the ideal scenario.


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## matthewsx (Jul 4, 2022)

Maybe he should go see Dave and get that Enco 13" x 40" lathe if it's not already gone.









						So I bought the entire shop .
					

the Hardinge that I bought for the company 36 years ago    This little Hardinge has been with me since 1977  My math is suspect, but I think that is closer to 45 years??  Oh, wait, you've been through two different jobs with it?  I need more caffeine this morning.




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				






			https://goo.gl/maps/CfttYypFjFpH92Cq8
		


John


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## Aukai (Jul 4, 2022)

And the mill too...


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 4, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> @mksj - I hope we are referring to the same thing?
> 
> I was thinking he could later easily swap out the AC motor as an upgrade to 3 phase on either of the 1236 lathes as they have TEFC motors.
> 
> If I was unclear I apologize.


It’s not a standard size IEC motor, so you will not find much that will fit without making modifications.


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## mksj (Jul 4, 2022)

This is an ongoing problem with the motors used in these lathes, they are specific designs that do not conform to any motor dimension standards and this is true of many of the smaller lathes with the motor mounted on the rear of the headstock. Motors in the headstock cabinet, typically one has a much wider selection that can be fitted. The 1236T and 1340GT have very limited selection of replacement motors and there are still some fitment issues. The 1440GT has no alternative motors that fit, and the 2 that can be used require fabricating a new motor mount and belt guard modifications. A new motor can be $600 or more discounted, and these days with inventory issues you may not even be able to get a stock motor replacement.


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## Dabbler (Jul 4, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> It’s not a standard size IEC motor


Really?    they offer a Baldor upgrade for the lathe and it seems to be a standard IEC frame size.


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## matthewsx (Jul 4, 2022)

So order as a 3ph and add the VFD?


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## Dabbler (Jul 4, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> So order as a 3ph and add the VFD?


S'what I'd do if I were starting from scratch again.


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## mksj (Jul 4, 2022)

Baldor upgrade is for the Chinese PM-1236, not the Taiwanese 1236T. Having done a number of VFD installs and motor replacements on the various lathes, it is not always as straight forward as one thinks. Even with the cabinet motor based lathes, they sometimes use odd motor shafts and pulleys, so like on my current lathe the brake drum is built into the pulley. I had bought a vector motor thinking it would be an easy install and I could change the pulley, but I would have to make a new pulley with brake hub. So no real benefit at the end of the day. What I have been told, is the motor on the 1236T is the same as the 1340GT, although they list the Hp ratings as different. The headstock on the 1236T is also shorter, which may further limit fitment of a replacement motor. Stock motors on the 1236T/1340GT have worked fine when used with VFD, so information is just to point out that if you plan on using a VFD (or other type of 3Ph converter) go with the stock 3Ph motor. People also downplay the issues of single phase motors effecting the surface finish, but there are reports to the contrary, there can be many contributing factors. Below is a previous post that going 3pH eliminated the issue, other means include motor isolation.









						The PM-1236T vs PM-1340GT dilemma
					

Very close to ordering one or the other but on the verge of a nervous breakdown trying to decide. It will be replacing a 3in1 machine that has been a pain in my --- since the day it arrived 6 years ago. Will be used at work occasionally for building small parts and for pleasure working on guns...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				











						1340gt surface finish problem
					

O.K. guys, and gals, I've tried every speed/feed combo, every carbide insert I have, every HSS tool I have, I've even put  vibration isolation pads between the stand and the floor...nothing seems to work.  Here's what I get...   Please excuse my photography skills.  You can not only SEE the...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 4, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> Really?    they offer a Baldor upgrade for the lathe and it seems to be a standard IEC frame size.


The short answer is, it’s not a standard IEC motor on a 1236T.  The motor on my 1236T has IEC 90L foot and shaft height dimensions, but a 19mm shaft of an 80 frame instead of 24mm as a 90 frame should have.  It is also about an inch shorter than a 90L, making the length conform to a 90S frame, so this is a complete bastard motor with dimensions of three different frame sizes.  You also can’t get an 80 or 90s as far as I have found in 2hp, I couldn’t even find a 1.5hp in that frame size at 1,800 rpm.  

There looks like there is some room in the front of the motor if you mount the pulley all the way against the shoulder, or you could use a single groove pulley since you are on a VFD and possibly save some more space.  That would require modifications of the gear cover and adjusting arm, but looks possible.  Anyways, there will be a good amount of customization to change this motor out, so I am glad I bought 3 phase from the factory.


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## JMBrewer (Jul 4, 2022)

mksj said:


> Actually change out the motor is not so easy on that lathe, it requires a TENV type, and very few are short enough to fit. Marathon E467, BlackMax Y551, Baldor IDNM3587T  are the most common , but expensive unless you can find one on eBay at a reasonable price. All TEFC motors will not fit and also metric frames with fan cooling will not fit. You would be better off getting the stock 3 phase motor and a static converter or a home-built RPC for starters, but you are close to the cost of a VFD.


Not meaning to take this thread off course but quick question for those that have converted their 1340GT to a three phase motor. Of these options, which one seems to be the easiest/best conversion? I ordered my 1340 as a single phase, but have since bit the bullet and got a RPC from American Rotary and went ahead and ordered my mill as 3 phase. I'm about 9 months into my wait on these machines so no way I'd switch my order at this point and go back to the end of the wait list. Was just wondering which motor option my be the easiest way to go if I decided to swap my lathe over too now that I have three phase power


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## davidpbest (Jul 4, 2022)

Other than ordering a 3-phase motor from PM, you have only a few motor options that will fit the PM-1340GT by making a few simple modifications to the mounting platform for the motor.  Mark discussed this a couple of posts back, and there are several threads that discuss this process:



> Actually change out the motor is not so easy on that lathe, it requires a TENV type, and very few are short enough to fit. Marathon E467, BlackMax Y551, Baldor IDNM3587T  are the most common , but expensive unless you can find one on eBay at a reasonable price. All TEFC motors will not fit and also metric frames with fan cooling will not fit.


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## Aukai (Jul 4, 2022)

I'm using the original PM 3ph with a VFD outlined from Mark(mksj).


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## JMBrewer (Jul 4, 2022)

I’ll have to reach out to PM and see if ordering a replacement motor is possible. Surely these can sourced from other places too. I’d think they’d use these other brands of Taiwanese lathes too


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## Dabbler (Jul 4, 2022)

Shaft diameter seems to me to be a small problem - but aligning the motor mounts and room for the motor are, of course critical.  Clearly it is best to order it in 3PH and add the VFD right away, if only one can afford it.

My personal options are far easier:  my 7.5HP lathe is 3PH already, with 1PH controls.  My 1440 is 220 1PH 2HP, but uses a standard motor/base.  The brake drum is on the driven pulley, and it uses 2 standard B belts, so my conversion is far easier.


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## davidpbest (Jul 5, 2022)

JMBrewer said:


> I’ll have to reach out to PM and see if ordering a replacement motor is possible. Surely these can sourced from other places too. I’d think they’d use these other brands of Taiwanese lathes too


Other than a PM replacement, below are the only possible motors that I'm aware of, but all require modifications, nothing is a drop in replacement. I put the Baldor on my 1340 and could not be happier.  Mark Jacobs (@mksj) did the controls.  Some speed tests are shown *here*.

http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/BALDOR-IDNM3587T/
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/MARATHON-Y551.html
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/MARATHON-Y526.html
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/MARATHON-E467.html


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

SRay53TxTn said:


> sold some car parts and other items and also purchased a PM728-VT mill; awesome as well. Here's a couple pics of my mini shop setup.


Nice setup... I figured a mill would be in the picture sometime soon.... I'll have to take a look at the PM728-VT you have.... looks like a great size and compliment to the lathe..

Last year I started delving into the metal working (primarily a wood worker to date) and got an aluminum welder (Fronius TransSteel 2200) and found metal working to be fun... so I'm not sure why, but I thought a lathe would be fun to have there have always been a few things that being able to custom turn would be fun instead of scouring the internet to find that small but usually simple part in some uncommon size... so I now I have my Atlas 618 and realizing I'm using it for more stuff.... though, In my hobby world, it's usually backwards... I buy the tool then find a use for it .


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 5, 2022)

I may have found a TEFC motor that will require minimal modifications.  The Lafert AMPH series in a 90L frame has enough room for the fan, but extends a bit more in the front and may require shimming out the belt tensioning bracket, and of course change the sheave bore size to 24mm since it is a 90 frame.  I was checking these measurements while contorted in uncomfortable positions, so my measurements may be off a bit, but this might be a winner.



			https://www.lafertna.com/resources/product_files/pg._27_-_DIMENSIONS-AMPH_B3_-_LNA_CAT._2019.pdf
		


It only has a CT range of 6:1, so might not be so good if you run a lot at very low speeds, or overspeed it a lot, but 6:1 is plenty for me.  And I’m sure it is much better than the stock motor.  List prices are similar to Baldor street prices, so might be able to get this motor for a decent price too.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Agree it would be best to get the 3ph unit stock and go with a static converter. Or just have @mksj do a conversion right away.
> 
> So, to summarize.
> 
> ...


It always easier and more fun to spend someone else's money .   I think the 1236T with the idea of upgrading and adding a VFD is out of the picture... even as is if I go the 1236T, I'll probably delay the DRO.  But it would make more sense to buy it as 3ph unit, add the VFD before the DRO... again, starting with a solid foundation.

I don't have 3 phase power in my shop... but I think what we are all referring to is a standard 220v outlet single phase going through a VFD is what converts it to 3 phase power.



matthewsx said:


> P.S. Do you also need a mill?


Well, I don't "need" a lathe but I'm upgrading mine... so do I "need" a mill... I think it's the inevitable in the near future.  I have a small, way over built cnc router for wood, it's certainly sturdy enough for aluminum as I have done some... but a spindle with more torque and dialing it down to slower RPM is the key.  I can only go down to 6000 RPM on my current spindle.  So, I've thought about trying a spindle where I can go from 100 to 2000 RPM mounted on the unit and see what works.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 5, 2022)

skcncx said:


> It always easier and more fun to spend someone else's money .   I think the 1236T with the idea of upgrading and adding a VFD is out of the picture... even as is if I go the 1236T, I'll probably delay the DRO.  But it would make more sense to buy it as 3ph unit, add the VFD before the DRO... again, starting with a solid foundation.
> 
> I don't have 3 phase power in my shop... but I think what we are all referring to is a standard 220v outlet single phase going through a VFD is what converts it to 3 phase power.
> 
> ...


I wouldn’t let a VFD scare you off, a 2hp vfd is pretty cheap, you don’t need one with all the bells and whistles unless you plan on adding things like a proximity stop for threading that Mark Jacobs builds.  

There is some wiring changes that need to be done, so if you have some skills in that area, it is pretty easy to do yourself.  You would need to add a circuit for locking out the controls unless the feed level is in the off position on start up, but that is a couple relays, and might even be possible in some VFDs.  Many of us here can walk you through that.

I bought a lathe first and then got a mill a few years later.  If you enjoy making things, you will quickly realize a mill is valuable to have.

See, I’m helping you spend your money


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I wouldn’t let a VFD scare you off, a 2hp vfd is pretty cheap, you don’t need one with all the bells and whistles unless you plan on adding things like a proximity stop for threading that Mark Jacobs builds.
> 
> There is some wiring changes that need to be done, so if you have some skills in that area, it is pretty easy to do yourself.  You would need to add a circuit for locking out the controls unless the feed level is in the off position on start up, but that is a couple relays, and might even be possible in some VFDs.  Many of us here can walk you through that.
> 
> ...


Well, the VFD doesn't scare me off so much... sometimes tool mods are as much fun as any other project... I've assembled and wired up from scratch my entire 3 axis CNC, stepper motor controllers, VFD spindle, proximity sensors and all... so with enough reading, googling I'm sure I can figure it out.

I think my dilemma with all this just makes the 1236T even more $ and it was already out of what I wanted to spend, though I'm willing to stretch if it's leagues beyond the PM 1228.  For my use, not sure it is... though, without a doubt the 1236T is better.  But right now, if I was forced to buy, it's the PM 1228... just seems to be the best compromise being it is a hobby, my preferred budget and a huge leap over my Atlas 618.

Having very limited lathe experience overall, I don't think I can fully appreciate the 618 given what it is.  If I had to boil it down to 3 things, it's the QCGB, DRO and "almost there" power for DOC for material removal on my 618... It's not size or rigidity of the 618... but if I'm going to replace and upgrade, I do want something larger.  Going to a 12x seems like a good leap in size and weight from the 618, either the 450 lb. PM 1228 or the 850 lb. 1236T.  

If I could magically ensure I have the smoothest, best built quality PM 1228, no warts or things I have to fix, it's a no brainer for me, given all the valuable input I've received via this thread.  Many users have upgraded from the PM 1228 for various reasons, most seemingly because of size, not enough bed length but not because the quality was so bad.  A "perfect" PM 1228 doesn't exist and if it's something with a little tuning and adjustments, I'm ok with that... I can't expect german/swiss engineering for my budget.

I'll stew on all this for a few days, but I want to get in line for one of these soon.


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## mksj (Jul 5, 2022)

If you are space limited, and do not need a full length lathe, this may be a reasonable option which includes chucks, stand and DRO. You can always upgrade to 3 phase and a VFD at a later time if you find that you want to go that route.








						EISEN 1324GHE Precision Bench Lathe with DRO & Stand, 1.5HP single-phase 220V
					

Features Digital readout (DRO) unit with X- and Z-axis optical scales included for ease of operation Bed is made of high tensile cast iron FC25. Hardened and ground bed ways Heat treated headstock gears Lubricated headstock D1-4 camlock spindle 18-step spindle speed High quality machine.  Made...




					eisenm.com


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## Dabbler (Jul 5, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> I put the Baldor on my 1340


I've always been a big fan of Baldor.  It is hard to do any better at any price.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

mksj said:


> If you are space limited, and do not need a full length lathe, this may be a reasonable option which includes chucks, stand and DRO. You can always upgrade to 3 phase and a VFD at a later time if you find that you want to go that route.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a great option.  I'd be ok with the size... and it does have one more RPM range between the 1100 and 1800, right around 1500 RPM... that may help mitigate the need for VFD... I don't need every single RPM possible.  Just a good variety through the full range.

Granted, I really like the idea of buying from PM... local'ish (90 minutes for me), so far great responses to my email and gathered from others, they respond and help out their customers.

I'm sure there are others out there... I have done some searching, but it seems like they are the same, nothing standing out... so it seems all roaods have lead me back to PM and what they offer.


----------



## Dabbler (Jul 5, 2022)

All I have heard about Eisen lathes seems to be positive.  Just a few minor things, like from any supplier of offshore stuff.


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## Dabbler (Jul 5, 2022)

On quick thought.  I bought a 12X37 on a recommendation from a Tool and die maker, and I kinda thought he was a little crazy, becaue I wanted the 12X28, thinking my projects were mostly in the 2X2X2 envelope.  Withing a year I was cantilevering the tailstock past the end of the bed to accommodate a wood turning project.  A year later it was the same again for an aluminum project.

Since then, I've used the full bed length about 6 times.  It saved me trying to locate someone else with a larger lathe to do my projects.  This is over 43 years now.  So the number of occurances is quite rare, but valuable when it comes up.

I have a friend that has a used Standard Modern 12X28, and he loves it - won't part with it, even though he has a 12X40 Colchester Toolroom and an Italian 16X50 lathe.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> On quick thought.  I bought a 12X37 on a recommendation from a Tool and die maker, and I kinda thought he was a little crazy, becaue I wanted the 12X28, thinking my projects were mostly in the 2X2X2 envelope.  Withing a year I was cantilevering the tailstock past the end of the bed to accommodate a wood turning project.  A year later it was the same again for an aluminum project.
> 
> Since then, I've used the full bed length about 6 times.  It saved me trying to locate someone else with a larger lathe to do my projects.  This is over 43 years now.  So the number of occurances is quite rare, but valuable when it comes up.
> 
> I have a friend that has a used Standard Modern 12X28, and he loves it - won't part with it, even though he has a 12X40 Colchester Toolroom and an Italian 16X50 lathe.


Yea, hard to know on length.  The EISEN 1324 might be a bit short if I'm up sizing from my 618... but looks like EISEN has a 1236 w/DRO.  Seems like they give you a bit more than PM... but it's similar, no drastic savings over PM's 1236T in the end... Still pushing the $8500-9K by the time it's shipped... For me the PM's are local pickup in an afternoon.

Basic knowledge, but I understand center to center length on these lathes to be the distance between tail stock (fully retracted inside the quill and the spindle nose on the headstock (not including any length lost from any chuck you have mounted.... Not sure how much you lose on a given 6" 3 or 4 jaw chuck with a D1-4 mount.  I just subtract 8-12" from the stated spec when chuck and drill chuck in tailstock is in play (not including the given drill bit length stickout) for the max length of stock I can actually turn.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 5, 2022)

For your uses, the 1228 is probably just fine and will last you years of service, we’re here to spend other members money vicariously while we dream of upgrading our equipment .  I haven’t really heard much in the way of negative comments about that lathe.  For me, the biggest issue was I did not want a DC motor.  I have a lot of industry experience with VFDs and controls, so for me to add that to the 1236T was a no brainer.  Saving a few grand helps pay for a lot of tooling too.  As I mentioned earlier, I love my 1236T, but not sure I would have bought it at these prices.

The Eisen machines get very good reviews from users, and are the same machines as the PM 1236T and 1340GT, so there should be no difference in quality.

I can’t recall if it was mentioned in this thread or not, but there is someone here that made a rolling stand for either the 1236T or the 1340GT mounted to a rigid plate that could then be adjusted based on where he moved it in his shop.  I don’t think he had storage under it, but if you haven’t seen that thread, it might be a useful idea to adapt to what you are considering.


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

This kind of decision may come down to what you're comfortable with in your budget rather than any technical issues.

400 lbs. makes a significant difference in capability no matter where the lathe was built. All machines will require some tweaking to get them where you want and if you can build a CNC router you are more than capable of installing a DRO or converting to VFD.

If I were in your position I would go bigger/heavier to have capabilities for the future. You can add accessories but not iron and none of us know the future....

John


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> This kind of decision may come down to what you're comfortable with in your budget rather than any technical issues.
> 
> 400 lbs. makes a significant difference in capability no matter where the lathe was built. All machines will require some tweaking to get them where you want and if you can build a CNC router you are more than capable of installing a DRO or converting to VFD.
> 
> ...


I hear ya!  

*Hypothetically... for turning aluminum, 2" diameter or less, say, 2" to 10" lengths... does a 800 lb. over a 400 lb lathe, all else being equal, change much?  What I'm getting at is based on what you turn is there a point of diminishing returns on what the extra weight can do?*

If you are slinging heavy objects I can see where the extra mass to dampen and absorb the cutting and rotation of a heavier mass is absolutely critical.  Contrary to turning smaller diameter and lighter objects I would logically think that once you overcome a certain mass and rigidity of the lathe... more isn't of that much more benefit..  On my Atlas 618 weighing in at less than 150 lbs... seems like it has turned small stuff pretty good and by all means to anything in the 10x to 12x range... it's pretty darn light.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> For me, the biggest issue was I did not want a DC motor. I have a lot of industry experience with VFDs and controls, so for me to add that to the 1236T was a no brainer


I don't have any history either way... other than most cordless power tools the brushless dc motors are always an improvement, though a lot of that is better efficiency with the battery and other benefits are of no concern for a plugged in lathe of much different characteristics.

The BLDC thing on the PM1228 is how proprietary it is, how easy (or rather how hard) to replace when/if it brakes.... to bad they don't standardize some of this to make getting a replacement, throw away BLDC motor easy.  I have purchased a few of the consew BLDC sewing machine motors (currently have one on my Atlas 618) and it's pretty good... if it goes bad, it's only $150 to replace.  It's small, powerful and cheap to replace... but the electronics and mod of it is unlikely... I'm just glad I could put a potentiometer on it and toggle switch.  Has good breaking when stopped on my Atlast 618.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 5, 2022)

skcncx said:


> I hear ya!
> 
> *Hypothetically... for turning aluminum, 2" diameter or less, say, 2" to 10" lengths... does a 800 lb. over a 400 lb lathe, all else being equal, change much?  What I'm getting at is based on what you turn is there a point of diminishing returns on what the extra weight can do?*
> 
> If you are slinging heavy objects I can see where the extra mass to dampen and absorb the cutting and rotation of a heavier mass is absolutely critical.  Contrary to turning smaller diameter and lighter objects I would logically think that once you overcome a certain mass and rigidity of the lathe... more isn't of that much more benefit..  On my Atlas 618 weighing in at less than 150 lbs... seems like it has turned small stuff pretty good and by all means to anything in the 10x to 12x range... it's pretty darn light.



Mostly it is just how fast you can remove material. The bigger heavier lathe can remove more at a pass.


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

That and parting.


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

Yea, there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to mass and rigidity but I doubt you’ll get there with hobby class lathes. 

Also a big difference going from aluminum to stainless steel so materials have an effect too. 

John


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

I have one of those sewing machine motors on my mill drill project. Think it will mostly be used for plastic and aluminum. Definitely a good bang for the buck but no comparison to a 3ph motor with VFD. 

John


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Also a big difference going from aluminum to stainless steel so materials have an effect too.


No doubt, I've been in 6061 aluminum and some mild steel so far... my guess is on stainless DOC becomes less with a smaller machine.  The price of material is starting to get frustrating as well... aluminum is crazy... not sure about stainless stuff.




matthewsx said:


> Think it will mostly be used for plastic and aluminum. Definitely a good bang for the buck but no comparison to a 3ph motor with VFD.


My guess is the PM 1228 is more of a powerful BLDC sewing machine electronic setup (hyper specific for given lathe it's installed) overlapping feature for what's needed on a lathe, variable speed, breaking, reverse direction etc... but nowhere near the durability and configurability of a true VFD setup.

I spent $1500 for a _Tecknomotor_ spindle and 110v Delta VFD on my CNC and have had zero issues since install... I plugged in the port to see all the config options via PC software and realized after 200+ settings... I just closed it and glad it's doing everything I need... like two operations, on/off and speed based on frequency output from my controller card.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> That and parting.


Yea, parting.  It's a skill I need to hone (as with everything else lathe related).  I read the article @davidpbest provided in a previous post so I have some things to try the next time I'm out in the shop.  I think my first issue is setup and alignment, eyeballing it apparently isn't good enough . I've had various rates of success... so I know things can go more smoothly from start to finish with the part actually falling off.


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

skcncx said:


> No doubt, I've been in 6061 aluminum and some mild steel so far... my guess is on stainless DOC becomes less with a smaller machine.  The price of material is starting to get frustrating as well... aluminum is crazy... not sure about stainless stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had a used Teknomotor originally on my CNC. Burned it up unfortunately so that’s why I went to the sewing machine motor. Eventually should put a real servo on it but that will have to wait a little longer until I have the new controller going. 

Hope you’re getting closer to a decision. 

John


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## Aukai (Jul 5, 2022)

For parting, tool height is important, and I use a Noga mounted dial indicator to set the blade exactly perpendicular cranking it in, and out. The 1228 was not as easy to set up for parting. Everything had to be done to make a straight, non chatter cut. The 1340 is not as particular with the Al, and MS, and powers through.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> I had a used Teknomotor originally on my CNC. Burned it up unfortunately so that’s why I went to the sewing machine motor.


Well, that's a bummer... I purchased Tecknomotor from DamenCNC who were very helpful... certainly leaps and bounds better than a wood handheld wood router many use on their hobby cnc for woodworking.



matthewsx said:


> Hope you’re getting closer to a decision.


I am, going to sit on it for a day or so... *but it's the PM-1228.*  I think it's the right fit for my use and needs.  It's not unlikely it could sit for a couple months between use and then get heavily used for a given couple months.  Being I fit all this hobby stuff around work, kids and many other life things it seems the responsible choice.  I'll look again for other brands/machines like the Eisen ones but so far all roads have lead me back to PM and their line up, particularly the 1236T and the PM-1228.  Maybe I'll stash most of the savings over the 1236T in a starter fund on a mill.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 5, 2022)

To make this simple .........bigger is better if you can afford it . If you plan on owning this lathe for 10 years or so , the price difference is minimal over these years . Your time is worth money also . The extra mass helps with cuts unless you don't mind taking smaller and more cuts per project . IMO , the saying " Buy once , Cry once " is the ticket here . YMMV .


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## Dabbler (Jul 5, 2022)

@Aukai beat me to it.  the extra 400 lbs can make a big difference when parting, but I have another quick story to tell:

Bear with me - this is actually relevant..

I was chamfering a 10" pipe for another hobby machinist,  Lots of room on my 12" lathe (750 lbs).  Used the 3 jaw, and the outside jaws.  Thought it would be an easy job. Broke 4 carbide inserts,  Wrecked a custom ground HSS 3/8" tool.  I finally gave up.  The guy I was doing the job for has a 14X40 lathe but far less experience.  He chicked a cheap brazed on carbide tool and chamfered it in 10 minutes.  I spend an hour and a half, broke 4 high-quality (expensive inserts)...  This is because of the difference in rigidity between a 750 lb lathe and a 1500 lb lathe.  So yeah, the weight makes a big difference in some cases.

(this is before I got my 1440 working and my 1560 was in pieces).


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

Aukai said:


> For parting, tool height is important, and I use a Noga mounted dial indicator to set the blade exactly perpendicular cranking it in, and out. The 2228 was not as easy to set up for parting.



*How do you make fine and controlled adjustments to a QCTP for aligning the parting blade?*  Knowing it's out of alignment with dial indicator is one thing... but on my OXA QCTP... I release tension and tighten back up, but getting ALL movement out when I clamp it back down in the position I want it, there's inevitable movement for turning likely not an issue... but if parting needs to be dead on... that's a challenge.


I have a couple cheap-o magnetic indicator mounts... I have struggled with just mounting indicators to them... maybe I'm missing pieces in what I have.  That's one accessory I need to go a little nicer on.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 5, 2022)

Easiest way , mount the holder in the post while loose and bring it up against the chuck and lock it down . The parting tools have clearance so a thou or 2 off means nothing .


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Easiest way , mount the holder in the post while loose and bring it up against the chuck and lock it down . The parting tools have clearance so a thou or 2 off means nothing .


Good, well, I did something similar, just the addition of a 1-2-3 block between chuck and already mounted parting tool in QCTP.  The 1-2-3 block just to clear the jaws... I'll just have to keep practicing just seems like I always get a some movement once I tighten the QCTP clamping nut.


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## Just for fun (Jul 5, 2022)

I use a 1,2,3 block between the chuck and the tool holder.

-EDIT-  You posted same time as I did.  I do the same as you.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

Anyone familiar the Birmingham 12" x 36" Precision Geared Head Bench Lathe - YCL-1236GH.? 

Looks nearly identical to the PM-1236T in the layout of it's controls... can be found online for as low as $5250.


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Anyone familiar the Birmingham 12" x 36" Precision Geared Head Bench Lathe - YCL-1236GH.?
> 
> Looks nearly identical to the PM-1236T in the layout of it's controls... can be found online for as low as $5250.


Looks identical doesn't mean much.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Looks identical doesn't mean much.


I would imagine similar origins... granted, every re-seller might have different specs that are not apparent on the surface... and then, well, it doesn't mean much as you say.


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

Here you go, I have almost the exact same machine and love it.









						Jet 1236P Metal Lathe - tools - by owner - sale
					

Very Nice, well kept 2 horsepower 12" x 36" Jet lathe for sale. It has a 1-3/8" spindle bore, 6"- 3 jaw chuck, 8"- 4 jaw chuck, steady rest and faceplate. It is wired for 120 volt operation (but can...



					columbus.craigslist.org


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

Just two hours away from you, looks like it's a hobby machine not from a factory. Even has a stand that you can modify with casters and a toolbox.

Just sayin' this will be a Taiwan built machine that probably already has any bugs worked out and will do everything any of the machines you're looking at will do....

John


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## Christianstark (Jul 5, 2022)

Nice deal, especially with tooling.


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## matthewsx (Jul 5, 2022)

Lots of us on here have them, most made by Tida but they work well and have belt drive for a little forgiveness like your 618.









						Samson (Tida) TD-5AA lathe
					

Just picked this up today.    And....    So I can check it against what Mr. Fang found in 1981 :grin:  John




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Probably some room for negotiation at that price, I paid $850 for mine.

John


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Just two hours away from you, looks like it's a hobby machine not from a factory. Even has a stand that you can modify with casters and a toolbox.
> 
> Just sayin' this will be a Taiwan built machine that probably already has any bugs worked out and will do everything any of the machines you're looking at will do....
> 
> John


Going to have to check this one out... looks like it's in pretty good condition.  My guess is that a 1236 over the 1228... the extra 8" will be nice to have.


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> Nice deal, especially with tooling.


I always heard accessories and tooling can cost as much and likely more than the lathe...can't say I "got it"... now just a few months of my 618, i "get it"  

I've added some ar-warner HSS indexable inserts, digital micrometer, calipers, edge technologies tool post drill chuck (on the fence on this one), edge technologies tool height level (wasted $$), a couple tool holders, some taps and dies, a few larger twist drill bits... and then like $500 later... oh, this is what they mean by tooling costing so much .   I haven't even gotten into the big ticket items like chucks, collets etc.. .


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## skcncx (Jul 5, 2022)

It just dawned on me and what a nice user friendly feature the 1236T has, the motor control level... it controls the spindle on and off, and I assume direction on most lathes having this bottom, 3rd shaft running though the saddle apron.

Your hands can stay safe and near the apron the entire time for most usage and not have to cross over to the main panel in the midst of turning operations.


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## mksj (Jul 5, 2022)

Correct, lever up is usually reverse and down is forward, but one can also reverse the feed direction at the gearbox. Pretty standard feature on full size lathes. The lever mechanism is usually notched so it locks in the stop position with a ramp from the forward/reverse positions. Some lathes it controls the motor/contactors/relays for direction, larger lathes usually use a clutch system.


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## skcncx (Jul 6, 2022)

This guy is bigger than I want... but is 20 minutes away... just showed up today.

*Smithy MI-1440L*








						Smithy Lathe - tools - by owner - sale
					

Please follow the instructions as I will not respond to scammers. It the listings active, do not ask if I still have it. Do not tell me you are out of town but will pay extra. Face to face...



					akroncanton.craigslist.org
				




Never heard of Smithy... looks like they have a MI-1337L, more of the size I want.  They are out of Michigan.  Plus they sell Lathe/Mill combos... but, I've never been happy with multi use tools though... great idea that never pans out.

The PM-1228... is still tops at the moment... I know it's not the preferred setup, motor, electronics, weight or higher quality of the Taiwan stuff... but it just seems to fit the bill for my use the most.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 6, 2022)

The Jet 1236P looks like it has a threaded spindle, you won't be able to turn with the spindle turning in the reverse direction.  That is helpful for threading away from the chuck.  Joe Pi has a video showing how he does it and says he rarely threads towards the chuck.


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## Dabbler (Jul 6, 2022)

@skcncx There are financial benefits in the used market.  In many cases there is fairly low risk, and many times the seller has already worked out the bugs, if any.

Try to get a well cared for machine.  that will help a lot.


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## Christianstark (Jul 6, 2022)

Where is the smithy made?


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## skcncx (Jul 6, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> Where is the smithy made?


It appears in China and same factory as some of the Harbor Freight combo machines.... will respond when I hear back from them directly.

Looking at reviews... it's the typical spread, some think it's great, others think it's horrible.

---EDIT---
From Smithy directly "All of our machines are designed by us but manufactured in China."

Like everything else, doesn't really tell us much.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 6, 2022)

skcncx said:


> This guy is bigger than I want... but is 20 minutes away... just showed up today.
> 
> *Smithy MI-1440L*
> 
> ...



Smithy is mostly known for combo lathe / mill machines but that looks like many of the common import lathes. Parts may be an issue, but I bet it shares a lot with some other import brands.


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## Dabbler (Jul 6, 2022)

It looks clean and unabused.  Good value considering your other alternatives... If it has any tooling, even better.


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## skcncx (Jul 6, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Smithy is mostly known for combo lathe / mill machines but that looks like many of the common import lathes. Parts may be an issue, but I bet it shares a lot with some other import brands.


Yea, different but the same as the others... nothing really to differentiate in my opinion.  The combo units look intriguing, but my guess is the mill attachment to the lathe is just a little more functional than the mill attachments you can put on some lathes... nobody from my impression use them much... generally, I'm not a fan of multi use/functional tools that are quite a bit different... I'd rather have a single purpose tool.


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## skcncx (Jul 6, 2022)

Dabbler said:


> It looks clean and unabused.  Good value considering your other alternatives... If it has any tooling, even better.


It does look very clean, reached out on it and the seller's focus is more woodworking so this just sits... so a good deal to be had... I'm out of town for a bit... so, hopefully it's still available when I'm back... being so close is really nice.  Otherwise, I keep coming back to the PM-1228 if nothing else pops up.


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## SRay53TxTn (Jul 6, 2022)

skcncx said:


> It does look very clean, reached out on it and the seller's focus is more woodworking so this just sits... so a good deal to be had... I'm out of town for a bit... so, hopefully it's still available when I'm back... being so close is really nice.  Otherwise, I keep coming back to the PM-1228 if nothing else pops up.


Sorta what happened when I was looking, when I showed up to look at them, hard pressure sale and not as shown. I had a tool maker/machinist friend with me to help with grading them. Of course this might be a diamond in the rough.


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## mksj (Jul 6, 2022)

The Smithy looks to be the same as the Bolton 1440, you couldn't pay me enough to get one of those. Bolton's have a very poor reputation and even worse is customer support/parts. Run, don't walk away.


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## matthewsx (Jul 6, 2022)

I had a Bolton 1340 and after much frustration, mainly fixing issues from it having been dropped but also some things related to the maker, I ended up selling for $500.

Yes, the Jet probably has a threaded spindle like my machine. I don't really have plans to run it backwards, people have been threading towards the chuck for more than 100 years so I don't think it's that big of a deal.

I'd rather have a well appointed Taiwan machine than China built since many of the issues you can face are hard to resolve, but that's just my preference.

I did learn a lot from working on the Bolton but ultimately a belt drive machine with VFD serves my needs better than the gear head.

John


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## skcncx (Jul 8, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> For me, the biggest issue was I did not want a DC motor. I have a lot of industry experience with VFDs and controls, so for me to add that to the 1236T was a no brainer. Saving a few grand helps pay for a lot of tooling too. As I mentioned earlier, I love my 1236T, but not sure I would have bought it at these prices.



Just for my understanding... I buy the 1236T with a 3phase motor and put a VFD on it instead of just getting a single phase motor... am I correct in the following?

A VFD will convert my shop's single phase 220v outlet to 3 phase the motor needs


I primarily use the VFD to change RPM of the spindle
Essentially rendering the 1236T RPM gears lever useless... just park it in one position.



Depending on features of VFD I could
Configure ramp up time (slow start)
Configure braking time/power
Add a proximity sensor stop to stop the carriage and spindle



*Anything other benefit?*
Any recommended VFD?  I'll see of PM has any recommendations as well.

Pretty soon, I might be at the 1340GT... per every ones advice and part of my gut... I may lean toward the go all out approach... and even the 1340GT stays under my hard limit of 72" long.  That's only $500 more though less included accessories.  I just have to settle on the fact that moves of this in my shop won't be as easy and a far more substantial stand that can be raised up on casters in the event It needs moved for a period of time.


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## Beckerkumm (Jul 8, 2022)

I would not say the gears are useless.  The beauty of combining a vfd with a gearhead machine is you have the benefits of any rpm but by choosing the correct gear, you can get a wide range within a motor speed for 40-80 hz or so.  That allows you to keep the motor rpms in the sweet spot for maximizing torque and HP and eliminates the need to upsize the motor to compensate.  A vfd conversion for a Monarch 10ee with no backgear retained requires a 7.5-10 hp motor and still doesn't quite match the low end torque of the original 3 hp DC motor it came with originally.

Gear changes are less frequent but the combination with a vfd doesn't eliminate them.  Dave


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## Christianstark (Jul 8, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> I would not say the gears are useless.  The beauty of combining a vfd with a gearhead machine is you have the benefits of any rpm but by choosing the correct gear, you can get a wide range within a motor speed for 40-80 hz or so.  That allows you to keep the motor rpms in the sweet spot for maximizing torque and HP and eliminates the need to upsize the motor to compensate.  A vfd conversion for a Monarch 10ee with no backgear retained requires a 7.5-10 hp motor and still doesn't quite match the low end torque of the original 3 hp DC motor it came with originally.
> 
> Gear changes are less frequent but the combination with a vfd doesn't eliminate them.  Dave


Another benefit of a VFD is being able to ramp up speeds during a cut like parting, to keep a more consistent finish.

I have a VFD on my 1340, and I still use the gears often, like Beckerkumm suggests.


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## rabler (Jul 8, 2022)

Yes, an _appropriate_ VFD will convert single phase to three phase power.  

I have an old Monarch 12"CK with a VFD to power the 3 phase 3 HP motor.  I use the headstock gears to change RPM extensively.  VFDs effectively lose some power under 60Hz.  Easy to get 3:1 or 4:1 RPM change out of VFD, but 100 rpm to 2000 rpm of a typical lathe spindle is 20:1.  Think of gears as getting in the right ballpark, and the VFD as tweaking RPM without stopping the lathe.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 8, 2022)

I'm checking out American RPC's and they are up there .   I guess $1500 doesn't get you what it used to .


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## mksj (Jul 8, 2022)

I believe the last iteration on the 1340GT/1236T Basic VFD install is in the post below. It is designed to be used with the Hitachi WJ200-015SF that can be purchased through QMT/PM or Drives Warehouse depending on if they are in stock. It is not a plug and play power source like an RPC, so requires some simple rewiring as outlined in the basic install document. There is also a document as to recommended components for the VFD cabinet, the links are old but one can search for current listings. It does not work with the proximity stop system, which requires a completely different type of system.








						Pm1340gt Lathe Basic Vfd Control Conversion Using The Stock Control Board And Switches
					

Not really and issue since the resistor's I recommend are completely sealed and the wiring is embedded. You could also mount it on the inside of the VFD cabinet which I have seen done. It does not get warm so heat is not an issue. My original 1340GT VFD with the WJ200 had it in the headstock...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




The usable speed range for a VFD using the standard motor is probably 20-100Hz, but you loose power below the motor's base speed of 60Hz. So ar 30 Hz you would have 0.75 Hp instead of 1.5Hp. In addition you loose the mechanical multiplication of torque, so the applied torque at the spindle would also be 1/2 at 30 Hz. This is OK for threading and smaller diameter work, but not for heavy cutting.


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## skcncx (Jul 8, 2022)

rabler said:


> Yes, an _appropriate_ VFD will convert single phase to three phase power.
> 
> I have an old Monarch 12"CK with a VFD to power the 3 phase 3 HP motor.  I use the headstock gears to change RPM extensively.  VFDs effectively lose some power under 60Hz.  Easy to get 3:1 or 4:1 RPM change out of VFD, but 100 rpm to 2000 rpm of a typical lathe spindle is 20:1.  Think of gears as getting in the right ballpark, and the VFD as tweaking RPM without stopping the lathe.


That makes sense.. I'd get some range out of the VFD but gears still used to go into a different ranges as well as using the gears in your favor for torque, etc.

For braking and ramp up, seems like a good thing to set... my 550 watt consew sewing machine motor on my Atlas 618 has pretty good braking, I have appreciated that when you turn it off, everything comes to a stop pretty quickly.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 8, 2022)

The 1236T comes with a 2 hp motor in the 3 phase version instead of 1.5 hp with single phase.

A vector drive VFD is able to operate the motor at full torque at very low speeds, but I’m not sure the motor that comes with the lathe is up to running as low as a true inverter rated motor could do.  The motor is custom and no information is readily available on it.  I have been using mine for a year and a half without any issues, so I don’t feel there is a need to change the motor unless you are pushing it beyond normal operation.   I haven’t oversped my motor yet like Mark recommends, and I don’t even have a speed pot installed.  I set my vfd up differently than most and use it more as a soft starter than to vary the speed, so changing gears is necessary.  I also used the coolant switch to change to a fast braking for threading, as well as reducing the speed to 50%, this way I get the low speed and high speed ranges at the flip of a switch.  I do mostly metric threading, so I need to stop the spindle and reverse for each pass.  I will probably add a speed pot at some point so I can fine tune the speeds to better match the machining conditions, and also try the expanded operating range of the motor that Mark suggested above, but so far it has not been a priority.  I want a tachometer installed before I do that so I know what speed I am running at.  I did not add a braking resistor and my Teco CV7300 vfd can stop the 4 jaw chuck from 500 rpm in a half second, so for my uses, a braking resistor is not needed.  If you wanted to brake quickly from full speed, then a braking resistor would likely be needed.

You will want a VFD with single phase input and 230v for your rated motor power.  You can use a three phase input VFD, but then you will need to upsize the VFD power at least 1.7x if used on single phase since a 2hp three phase input vfd will not be able to handle the current from a single phase source and give you 2hp output.

You will need to modify the controls a bit, the spindle drive lever needs to go through a relay that prevents the vfd from starting if you get a power failure and leave the lever in a drive position.  Basically, you will remove all the existing relays and rewire through the VFD.  It’s not difficult to do, just takes a bit of time and some control relays.  There are plenty of people here who have done this and can help with questions.  There are VFDs with internal programming capabilities and you can do relays through programming instead of physical relays, but you would need to dig through the manuals to make sure it has sufficient inputs to do that.


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## Dabbler (Jul 8, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> A vector drive VFD is able to operate the motor at full torque at very low speeds


sorta true, sorta not.  Due to heating and lack of cooling, it is common to consider to derate the torque on a VFD controlled motor by a third at half speed.  You derate the torque even more a lower speeds. due to excessive current and additional heating.



Ischgl99 said:


> I haven’t oversped my motor yet like Mark recommends



I have run all my 3PH motors to 150% (90 Hz) without any problems at all.  I do not own a VFD rated motor.


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## maticulus (Jul 27, 2022)

I found this thread while looking for recent input on the PM 1228 lathe as I'm trying to decide between it, the 1130 and 1022, balanced on the "Buy the biggest you can afford" vs. I don't necessarily have a need for the biggest barring the unknown future. I have the PM728 and realized after the fact as a first time machine purchaser/owner that one should start with the lathe first and a project I was working on bore that out, although small. My purpose for chiming in is that I checked Grizzly, despite wanting to keep things uniform and they created an additional twist with this new machine I do not recall seeing mentioned in this thread, it looks pretty good by comparison and opening the site in a different browser might be able to get the 5% off coupon I saw to come back up to sweeten the deal. I'm out over the weight unfortunately;









						12" x 35" Variable-Speed Gunsmith Lathe at Grizzly.com
					

<h1>G0949G 12" x 35" Variable-Speed Gunsmith Lathe</h1> <h2>A loaded gunsmith lathe at a competitive price.</h2> <p>The G0949G 12" x 35" Variable-Speed Gunsmith Lathe has a small footprint, but packs plenty of features not found on standard lathes.</p> <p>The lathe is loaded with features not...




					www.grizzly.com


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## Christianstark (Jul 27, 2022)

maticulus said:


> I found this thread while looking for recent input on the PM 1228 lathe as I'm trying to decide between it, the 1130 and 1022, balanced on the "Buy the biggest you can afford" vs. I don't necessarily have a need for the biggest barring the unknown future. I have the PM728 and realized after the fact as a first time machine purchaser/owner that one should start with the lathe first and a project I was working on bore that out, although small. My purpose for chiming in is that I checked Grizzly, despite wanting to keep things uniform and they created an additional twist with this new machine I do not recall seeing mentioned in this thread, it looks pretty good by comparison and opening the site in a different browser might be able to get the 5% off coupon I saw to come back up to sweeten the deal. I'm out over the weight unfortunately;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think I would opt for this one instead of the Grizzly.



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1236/
		


It just looks like a better built machine. Metal hand wheels, auto feed not built into the lead screw, etc.


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## skcncx (Jul 27, 2022)

maticulus said:


> I found this thread while looking for recent input on the PM 1228 lathe as I'm trying to decide between it, the 1130 and 1022, balanced on the "Buy the biggest you can afford" vs. I don't necessarily have a need for the biggest barring the unknown future. I have the PM728 and realized after the fact as a first time machine purchaser/owner that one should start with the lathe first and a project I was working on bore that out, although small. My purpose for chiming in is that I checked Grizzly, despite wanting to keep things uniform and they created an additional twist with this new machine I do not recall seeing mentioned in this thread, it looks pretty good by comparison and opening the site in a different browser might be able to get the 5% off coupon I saw to come back up to sweeten the deal. I'm out over the weight unfortunately;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you are comparing the PM-1228 to that grizzly.. keep in mind the PM-1228 is very unique in that size since it has a pretty good QCGB for different threads (15 in total, abeit all imperial and even TPI's) with no manual gear changes.  So switching from 15 TPI threading options to just a turning/power feed option requires no gear changes.  That may be somewhat true for the grizzy, but just looking at the front panel it seems you have just 3 speeds to choose from so like the 1130 it seems the 3 speed change is really more for fine tuning your power feed rate, not for switching between threading TPI feeding.

To me.. a decent (while not all TPIs and metrics) QCGB is HUGE... but it's all pref.  Comparing to the 1130, 1022, then you are back to changing gears if you switch between turning and threading.  Early in my machining and lathe experience... I'll be landing on the PM-1236T version with 40 different pitches from a QCGB and in typical fashion for me... when I don't have a feature, I want it and when I have it, I don't use it or find out I really didn't need it.


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## maticulus (Jul 27, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> I think I would opt for this one instead of the Grizzly.





skcncx said:


> If you are comparing the PM-1228 to that grizzly.. keep in mind the PM-1228 is very unique in that size since it has a pretty good QCGB for different threads (15 in total, abeit all imperial and even TPI's) with no manual gear changes.



  I mentioned the Grizzly because it's a new product on their site that someone here might be interested in. I'm pretty set on another PM product and still moving left and right on the options, but feeling I'm going to side with the 1228.


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## Aukai (Jul 27, 2022)

You can put short things on a long lathe, but you have less options with long things on a short lathe


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## Toro5xi (Jul 27, 2022)

I have been happy with my PM728 mill and am waiting on a 1228 but the PM lead times are a factor.


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## skcncx (Jul 27, 2022)

maticulus said:


> I mentioned the Grizzly because it's a new product on their site that someone here might be interested in. I'm pretty set on another PM product and still moving left and right on the options, but feeling I'm going to side with the 1228.


Yea, I've looked at grizzly options, they have a lot of options, almost too many (PM as well though).  Few, but likely important factors separate them... hard to tell for the uninitiated... like myself.  I wish it was as simple as a "good", "better", "best" decision and cost increasing accordingly.

To me, PM wins (so far) because of their response and support.  I'm sure there are a few people who may disagree, but so far, they have been quick to answer all my questions.

The 1228 from PM looks great.  I watched Frank Hoose's 8 part review/overview of it and even reached out to him directly.  He loves it as many others do as well.  In my opinion, the ONLY feature that is a bummer is the easy ability to change power feed direction going from left to right.  That requires a wrench and quick changes in the gear box panel.  That only struct me odd because it has a decent QCGB which none of the smaller 10 or 11x sized machines do, but they do have feed direction knobs.


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## taiwanluthiers (Aug 9, 2022)

skcncx said:


> *What are some factors for making a decision between two "classes/quality levels" of a lathe?*
> 
> Mostly in regards to accuracy and quality of end result given the experience of a novice operator.  I'm of the mindset that "accuracy" and "better" are relative terms...a Ferrari is not always better than a Honda Accord... they both have their roles so, it depends.
> 
> ...



I used to have a PM1228 lathe when I was back in the states. It's a great little lathe especially if space/stairs/apartment is an issue. Good little lathe that I've successfully used for gunsmithing and it really punches well above its weight.

HOWEVER...

A PM1228 lathe is a bench top lathe, make no mistake about it. As long as you have that expectation then you'll be happy with it. Which means you won't be able to make heavy cuts like Abom does on his videos, and your choice of inserts will need to be mostly finishing cuts to get a good finish. 

From what I can see a PM1236 lathe is a completely different lathe. It's gear head, so that means unlike a 1228 you can take heavier cuts by slowing your speed down in exchange for higher torque. Whereas a 1228 uses a BLDC motor that may have torque issues at lower speed and all that (though I never really found it to be a problem). 

So if you need a lathe with punch get the 1236.

I have a victor lathe now, but unfortunately can't do gunsmithing anymore because it's not legal in my country (Taiwan).


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## skcncx (Aug 9, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> I used to have a PM1228 lathe when I was back in the states. It's a great little lathe especially if space/stairs/apartment is an issue. Good little lathe that I've successfully used for gunsmithing and it really punches well above its weight.
> 
> HOWEVER...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the the feedback.  I landed on ordering the PM-1236T (Taiwan) version as it appears all around a level up on overall quality and certainly weight, the PM-1236T is 850 lbs where as the PM-1228 is 490lbs.. so that extra 360 lbs should help out.  PM-1236T is also a bench top but is a gear head lathe, so I'm not sure if that's the same as having what older lathes call a "back gear" for slower rpm, but with the 220v 1.5 HP motor and geared down for more torque should provide all I need.


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## Just for fun (Aug 9, 2022)

I think you made a great choice, I love mine.


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