# Intro to my little hobby metal shop and request for tooling recommendations



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 9, 2020)

Hey all!    I did some basic machining in college on full sized equipment about 15 years ago in engineering school.   I still tinker with all sorts of things around in my home shop and came across an opportunity to pick up a Grizzly  G0704 7x27” 1HP R8 Mill and a G4000 9x19” 3/4HP lathe second hand locally.  Small home shop sized things don't come up often in my area so i jumped on it.  Both came basically unused (but older) with a decent set of starter tooling and I've picked up some stuff along the way.  So far I tore each down, cleaned them up, and re-lubed everything.  I’m sure I still have some adjustments to do but everything seems to be working as intended (well for an import machine).  Please excuse the mess... generally its quite a bit more tidy but I'm between projects.






I have no particular projects in mind.  Just hobbies or parts that could be useful in my regular putzing around in the shop or restoring old equipment.   I’ll probably make a few upgrade parts for the machines first.  I already added an OXO QCTP to the lathe and machined a female threaded bolt to interface with the existing stud. (Pictured).  Potential next improvements:

4 Bolt clamp for Carriage on lathe
iGuaging DRO install on Mill
Maybe some kind of tramming apparatus for the mill
I've seen a few people creatively mount some sort of adjustable DTI to the lathe to measure cuts quickly.
Belt Drive Mill and maybe up spindle speed a hair
Treadmill motor conversion for lathe
Open to any suggested useful projects here as well.



QCTP Machined female bolt (made from leftover suspension bolt because I dont throw anything out)


Fitment


I recently scooped up a endmill lot from a local guy.   It's mainly carbide from Data Flute, Garr, Duramill, and Niagara.  I’d say some of it looks new or still sharp, some used, and some a victim of poor storage and transport.  I cleaned and lubed them up (although used an oiled rag which left some minor lint in the pictures). I’d wager some of the larger ones outsize my mill’s motor and rigidity.  I know carbide is able to run a lot faster/harder in general at any size.  Would it still perform well at my mill’s capabilities at slower passes or smaller cuts?  My max rpm is 2500 which is well below what people run a lot of the smaller carbide with.  I know HSS is usually recommended but wasn't sure if there was a performance reason or just cost.  Seeing as how i own all this carbide already cost isn't really the issue. 

FYI MTM and Frankford Arsenal make some handle rifle ammo cases for a few bucks that fit endmills pretty well. Checkout my pictures.  I can give you size/model recommendations if anyone is interested.

Here's a list of the items I have that either came with the purchase or I've picked up along the way.  I scour ebay and want ads and pick up things on the thrift when I can.  I try to get USA when it's reasonable but I'm not above import items.


Any hints for what i’m missing that would be useful in general would be great.













Open to recommendations but off the top of my head here are things I think I would find useful.  Let me know if you think they are or not:


Flycutter
Face mill
Boring head and bars
115 Drill index
Center drills
Spotting drills
HHS lathe bits or blanks
Countersinks
Deburring bits


Also I can't imagine I'll ever need this many endmills so anyone is interested in some of the excess endmills I have I'd love to barter etc for some things I could use.  Thanks for reading.


----------



## ttabbal (Oct 9, 2020)

Looks like a nice setup overall. Good score for a home guy! 


Flycutter
Yes, get one. I use a ebay unit, with HSS or an insert tool depending on how big a hurry I want to be in. Aluminum I use HSS because it's plenty fast. 

Face mill
Might put that off a while. Little mills have trouble running them. Even in my Bridgeport, I get better finish from the flycutter. To be fair, the face mill is Chineseium, so it might be part of the problem.  

Boring head and bars
Handy to have. I use a Criterion from ebay with Borite Cobalt bars, works very well for me. 

115 Drill index
Center drills
Spotting drills
Lots of drills, gotta love drills.  Center drills in particular you need for the lathe so you can use tailstock centers. 

HHS lathe bits or blanks
Particularly with a small lathe, yes, get some and learn to grind. Sharp HSS can help a lot on smaller lathes. The HSS thread is huge, but there is a lot of good information there to learn about them. And if you need form tools or odd geometry, it's really nice to be able to grab a blank and make what you need. Even if you choose to use inserts most of the time, having a few around is worth while for that. 

Countersinks
I usually only use them when I want flat head screws, but yes, they are handy. 

Deburring bits
Yeah, you need deburring stuff. I have a Noga hand tool set to knock the worst bits off, a little filing gets the rest. Files are great to have around.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 9, 2020)

@ttabbal Thanks! 

Flycutter: any general guidelines for size or style?

Facemill:  I've read that as well with needing more machine. Think that even accounts for light passes?   i was surprised since i thought there would be less of a shock load like a fly cutter.   but to be honest the wide path of a fly cutter is probably better for just cleaning up surfaces in one pass.

Boring heads and bars:  I'll have a look.   i wasn't really sure if there was a more optimal style or anything.  looks like used Criterion aren't pulling too big a price on eBay so that's an option.  EDIT: they actually fetch a pretty penny.  I'll just keep my eyes out in general.

Drills:  I have some USA HSS but would def like the full 115 index.  I'll keep my eyes open.   Cobalt worth it over HHS for this?

Spotting drills:  I have a bunch of duplicate drills in various conditions from my bulk purchases.   Could i achieve the effect of a spotting drill by cutting some of these down for stiffness and resharpening the tips.   I figure i could grind them approximate and then I picked up a Drill Doctor 750x that could tidy them up.  Should probably only really need one to dimple no?

HHS Blanks:  I'll try to pick some up.  any tips on where to pickup?   Should i be seeking USA HHS or does it not matter since I'm grinding my own.


----------



## Aaron_W (Oct 9, 2020)

ER collet chuck, and collets are handy. On the mill they can hold end mills or other tooling, on the lathe they are handy for holding smaller stock, faster than a 4 jaw with better accuracy than a 3 jaw chuck.
I now have 3 sets, ER16 for very small stock on my mini-lathe, ER32 for general use on both lathes,, and my mills and ER50 for my 11" lathe.

I also have collet blocks, and a spindexer than work with the ER32 collets.


I have a lot of overlap with my machines so with a 3/4-16 to MT2 adaptor I can use the mini-lathe ER chucks on my mill, or in the tailback of the larger lathe.


----------



## pontiac428 (Oct 9, 2020)

Using those MTM style ammo boxes for tool storage is a really good idea!


----------



## macardoso (Oct 9, 2020)

Welcome to HM! We are excited to have you here! I'm a fellow G0704 owner (I did a CNC conversion on mine) and I have a lathe. Looks like you got a great start to your collection. 

The 115 piece drill set would be my first buy. I wish I would have spent more on mine and gotten split point drills. I don't personally care about the material, but mine are not great at all. 

After that, the measuring instruments are needed to do good work on either machine.

If you want a project, a few of us have been doing PM Research steam engine kit. They're a lot of work but a total blast. I've gotten a lot better at machining trying to do mine.

Just a tip, I've found the G0704 to be very flimsy compared to the Bridgeports I had in college. My tip to everyone with one is to stick to 1/4" endmills in steel and 3/8" in aluminum. I occasionally use a 3/4" cutter in aluminum, but due to rigidity, I end up taking less material off than the 3/8".

Steam Engine flywheel



Project page on my G0704









						G0704 CNC AC Servo Rebuild (Picture Heavy)
					

Hi All,  About 5 years ago I completed a CNC conversion of a Grizzly G0704 milling machine. Like everyone at that time I chose to go with the Hoss Machine style conversion as there were not many options on the market. I was not comfortable designing my own system at the time since I was just...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 9, 2020)

@Aaron_W  -Thanks!

ER collets:  Seem neat.  For the mill i never really thought about it since i had my drill chuck and only so many sized endmills.   But they seem really useful on a lathe.  I never thought to check for an ER lathe chuck.  i bet its way more repeatable than a 3 or 4 jaw as well.   The 4 jaw that comes with the G4000 is pretty flimsy.   In fact i dont even hav the key and they dont make it any more.   I guess I'll put that on the project list.

Collet Block:   Didnt know these existed.   Seem very useful swapping between he mill and lathe.  Which reminds me that i could use a set of V Blocks in general.

@pontiac428
Rifle ammo cases:  I can't claim credit i spotted someone doing it somewhere.  Dimensions are kind of a pain in the butt to get so i just bought one of each to figure it out.   If I get some time I'll post up my findings.  In general they fit will and you can put some foam up top as well.   You need a band or something around it though as its a light slip fit.   I used velcro wire strapping.  For the 1/2 ones they fit tight and straight.   for smaller i had to flip some of them to protect the flutes.

@macardoso

CNC:  Sounds pretty awesome.   I've looked into it but have a ways to go before i venture down that hole.   About what did all the automation equipment run you?

115 Drills: yeah i have some good USA HHS drills but not that wide a range.   I was debating china bits or waiting on a deal on a USA set.

Measurement:  I've got a pretty good start on these.  I need a better holder set for my DTIs.   I dont have anything great except what came with my Interapid and i dont love that one either.  I'll try to pop some pictures up later.   I also ended up with some metric ones I'm not sure ill use... but once the DROs are up perhaps I will.

Steam Engine:  Seems need.   I designed and fabricated one back in school on the big boy machines and it was fun.   I'll probably be doing more smaller widgets etc as parts of other projects.   I tend to pick up too many projects so try to keep my scopes down.   But its not off the radar for sure.  Looks like you're getting some darn fine cuts on that flywheel!

G0704 Rigidity:  Yeah i heard that.  So does it have to do a lot with depth of cut?   I cam into a ton of 1/2 tooling i wouldn't mind using in general.  But i have all the sizes.


----------



## Aaron_W (Oct 9, 2020)

Yes, I forgot the 4 jaw that comes with the G4000 is awful. I have an Enco 9x20 which is identical to the G4000 other than color and brand name. I have actually used Grizzly parts to replace some that were missing when I got it. There is also that weird metric spindle thread to deal with, it would have been so much better if it used the much more common 1-1/2"-8 thread. 

ER collet chucks are not really a direct replacement for 3 or 4 jaw chucks, as the holding capacity is much more limited. ER 32 can hold up to 3/4",and the ER50 up to 1-1/4", even my little Sherline can hold a 2"+ piece in its 3 and 4 jaw chucks. The size of your work will have an influence on how useful they are. 

The collet blocks are handy for milling square and hex shapes into round stock, as well as other work holding tasks. 


There are lots of cool things to spend money on, but the ER collets are something I actually use fairly often.


----------



## ttabbal (Oct 9, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> @ttabbal Thanks!
> 
> Flycutter: any general guidelines for size or style?
> 
> ...




I'm just using a simple one that can cut about a 3" pass with a 3/8" HSS bit. I just ground it myself and it works great. 

Facemills are great, but they usually have multiple points of contact, so it's like running 3-4 tools at once. You could probably use them with lighter cuts. 

I also like roughing end mills. They remove material faster with less tool pressure, but don't leave as nice a finish. Leave some material and switch to a finish end mill to get better finish for the final cuts. 

Cobalt vs HSS for drills is less important. The cobalt will last longer, but be more brittle, so don't use them in hand tools. If you keep them in the machines, so they don't get side loads and such, they should hold up well. Since you have a sharpener, it might be better for you to go with normal HSS. 

Converting a drill to a spotter might work for you. They are pretty cheap though. Might not be worth the bother. 

For HSS blanks, start with some import HSS. You will likely mess some up and it's less painful on cheap bits.  Once you get some experience, pick up some nice brand name HSS. I got most of mine on ebay. 

This is the style of fly cutter I use. It would be pretty easy to make one too.









						FLY TOOL CUTTER--2-" x 3/4" ---3/8" TOOL BIT--APT  MADE IN THE U.S.A.  | eBay
					

2" x 3/4"  UNI-KUT FLY TOOL CUTTER---APT MADE IN THE U.S.A. 3/4" SHANK--USES 3/8 TOOL BIT. ---USES INEXPENSIVE STANDARD TOOL BITS---.



					www.ebay.com
				




These are a good price and work well for me. 









						50pcs 3/8  x 3"  HSS Square tool bits for $189.00 #HS-2BT-38---new  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 50pcs 3/8  x 3"  HSS Square tool bits for $189.00 #HS-2BT-38---new at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


----------



## macardoso (Oct 9, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> CNC: Sounds pretty awesome. I've looked into it but have a ways to go before i venture down that hole. About what did all the automation equipment run you?



I have a good gig with work where I'm allowed to take discarded equipment home to mess around with as long as I'm using it for home learning and not selling it/giving it to anyone. I've shared a lot of my gained knowledge with people at work so I think it is a fair deal. If I were to do a nice stepper build, it would probably be $3k including good ballscrews and all the conversion hardware. Add $1k if you want DMM servos.

I do panel design and automation at work, so I have fun actually building the stuff at home.



CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> 115 Drills: yeah i have some good USA HHS drills but not that wide a range. I was debating china bits or waiting on a deal on a USA set.



I bought a basic black oxide import set for around $120. I figured I'd replace the bad/broken ones with good stuff when needed. Unfortunately quite a few were bent or poorly ground to start with and the cost of shipping discourages me from replacing them often enough. Wish I'd spent $100-200 extra to start with so the drills were better quality. Again, split point would be a must IMO.



CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> Measurement: I've got a pretty good start on these. I need a better holder set for my DTIs. I dont have anything great except what came with my Interapid and i dont love that one either. I'll try to pop some pictures up later. I also ended up with some metric ones I'm not sure ill use... but once the DROs are up perhaps I will.



Awesome!



CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> Steam Engine: Seems need. I designed and fabricated one back in school on the big boy machines and it was fun. I'll probably be doing more smaller widgets etc as parts of other projects. I tend to pick up too many projects so try to keep my scopes down. But its not off the radar for sure. Looks like you're getting some darn fine cuts on that flywheel!



My buddy asked me to help him build this one. It has been fun, but it is currently on the back burner while I work on another project. I try to limit myself to 2 at a time and work on the one that sounds the most fun on any given day.



CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> G0704 Rigidity: Yeah i heard that. So does it have to do a lot with depth of cut? I cam into a ton of 1/2 tooling i wouldn't mind using in general. But i have all the sizes.



The larger the diameter, the greater the lateral forces applied to the spindle as a result of the cut (even for the same depth and width of cut in a smaller tool). There's nothing to say you can't use the bigger tool, but you won't be able to really "use" the full capability of the tool. I think I can get close to actually "using" the full capabilities of 1/4" tooling in steel. If you're paying for carbide, I'd rather spend $20 on a tool vs. $50 for a 1/2" cutter if they are going to give the same performance.

Large Depth of cut (e.g. .750") and small width of cut (e.g. 0.030") seems to work best on this machine if you get the choice.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 11, 2020)

oooo the quoting system on this platform is lovely...  I'm used to vBulletin...  



Aaron_W said:


> Yes, I forgot the 4 jaw that comes with the G4000 is awful.


I'll give it a whirl after I fabricate a new key for it.  For the level of stuff I'm doing it should be passable for now.  saw an older USA one for sale locally but by the time I buy or fabricate a backplate its basically the cost of a new purpose built import one.   We will see.  Autocross season is buttoning up so i'll have some more focus on the shop.



Aaron_W said:


> There are lots of cool things to spend money on, but the ER collets are something I actually use fairly often.


Thanks for the tip.   I'll put it all on the purchase/trade list.





ttabbal said:


> I'm just using a simple one that can cut about a 3" pass with a 3/8" HSS bit. I just ground it myself and it works great.



Is it best practice to get an R8 or can i just get a straight shank and put it in a collet? Seems like a super simple tool so i wouldnt mind an import.   I assume the head size doesnt dictate the diameter as you can extend it out a bit more?



ttabbal said:


> For HSS blanks, start with some import HSS.



As for sizing.  3/8 x 3" or 4" optimal.   or should i just upsize to 1/2".



macardoso said:


> would probably be $3k including good ballscrews and all the conversion hardware. Add $1k if you want DMM servos.



I assume that's all the add on after the cost of the mill?



macardoso said:


> Wish I'd spent $100-200 extra to start with so the drills were better quality. Again, split point would be a must IMO.



Yeah I picked up some USA HSS from an estate sale which are delightful.   I just dont have the full range of the master set.  Split point matter if you are spot drilling?



macardoso said:


> ut you won't be able to really "use" the full capability of the tool. I think I can get close to actually "using" the full capabilities of 1/4" tooling in steel. If you're paying for carbide,



Yeah i for sure get that.   but lets say i was facing a full side of something or a top.   I feel one of the 1" tools i got with a light pass would be more rigid than a smaller one.   but maybe too light a pass would have a poor finish.   I'll experiment and see what's up.   As far as the carbide.   I wasnt seeking it out.   My lot acquisitions had me come into a lot of it as you can see from my pics.   I was just wondering if i could use it to the same extent as HSS or if it only works well getting cranked up a bunch. Otherwise i might try to sell or trade some.



macardoso said:


> Large Depth of cut (e.g. .750") and small width of cut (e.g. 0.030") seems to work best on this machine if you get the choice.



Thanks for the tip!


----------



## DavidR8 (Oct 11, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> As for sizing. 3/8 x 3" or 4" optimal. or should i just upsize to 1/2".



I would go with 3/8 as the largest HSS tool blanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ttabbal (Oct 11, 2020)

I prefer straight shank in a collet. In theory integral R8 can be more accurate, but I haven't noticed any problems. 

Unless you have a larger lathe, 3/8 HSS is great. I can fit 1/2 and use them sometimes, but they are harder to grind. More material to remove. And the added rigidity doesn't really get used on smaller machines like my 11x27.


----------



## macardoso (Oct 12, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> I assume that's all the add on after the cost of the mill?



Unfortunately yes. You can get by cheaper, but that was my experience.



CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> Yeah I picked up some USA HSS from an estate sale which are delightful. I just dont have the full range of the master set. Split point matter if you are spot drilling?



I'd say yes. Split point don't always need a spot drill and tend to drill straighter either way. The chips cut more cleanly and eject better. They also tend to be made better overall.



CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> Yeah i for sure get that. but lets say i was facing a full side of something or a top. I feel one of the 1" tools i got with a light pass would be more rigid than a smaller one. but maybe too light a pass would have a poor finish. I'll experiment and see what's up. As far as the carbide. I wasnt seeking it out. My lot acquisitions had me come into a lot of it as you can see from my pics. I was just wondering if i could use it to the same extent as HSS or if it only works well getting cranked up a bunch. Otherwise i might try to sell or trade some.



I'd stick with the flycutter for that. You wouldn't think it, but a 3/4" or 1" 2 flute carbide wood router bit also does a nice job on one of on these smaller mills. Best in aluminum, OK in steel.

Carbide is nice, and I love the rigidity of the tool for CNC, but it is perhaps less necessary for manual work. Try it out and let us know. 

Carbide CAN be run very fast but does not need to be (some Heat Resistant Super Alloys - HRSA - are an exception as they use the speed of the tool to locally soften the metal to make cutting easier). My modded G0704 spindle only goes to 5000 rpm which is well below the speed for carbide tools less than 1/2". They still work great.


----------



## seanb (Oct 12, 2020)

Cheap chinese drills are junk. Higher quality chinese drills like Shars sells work good.


----------



## macardoso (Oct 12, 2020)

seanb said:


> Cheap chinese drills are junk. Higher quality chinese drills like Shars sells work good.


+1 to that. China can make nice stuff for people willing to pay fair price for it. My only gripe with Shars drills (and I buy quite a lot from them) is that you need to buy in boxes of 5-10 which makes it a bit expensive to replace lots of different individual drills.


----------



## markba633csi (Oct 12, 2020)

Good score! Definitely look for a small bench grinder if you don't have one.  You can use the 1/2" endmills in aluminum but they're too big for steel with the machine you have.  Use slow speeds for steel cutting and use oil.  Cast iron can be cut dry.  Watch your fingers always! And protect your eyes 
-Mark


----------



## macardoso (Oct 12, 2020)

I see a few of the carbide endmills you have are made specifically for aluminum. These would be the 2 and 3 flute cutters with sharp edges, deep flutes, and a white gold coating (ZrN). You'll find these to do an awesome job on Aluminum unless they're beat up.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 12, 2020)

macardoso said:


> Unfortunately yes. You can get by cheaper, but that was my experience.


probably not on my near term list then .   too many hobbies.


macardoso said:


> I'd say yes. Split point don't always need a spot drill and tend to drill straighter either way. The chips cut more cleanly and eject better. They also tend to be made better overall.


roger.   ill keep my eye out probably for some second hand USA most likely since i have a good usa set in the main sizes already


macardoso said:


> I'd stick with the flycutter for that. You wouldn't think it, but a 3/4" or 1" 2 flute carbide wood router bit also does a nice job on one of on these smaller mills. Best in aluminum, OK in steel.


okee dokee


macardoso said:


> Carbide is nice, and I love the rigidity of the tool for CNC, but it is perhaps less necessary for manual work. Try it out and let us know.


will do


macardoso said:


> My modded G0704 spindle only goes to 5000 rpm


I assume that was a combo of the new motor... regearing/belting.. and new bearings as well?  I wouldnt mind some more speed even for manual.


seanb said:


> Cheap chinese drills are junk. Higher quality chinese drills like Shars sells work good.


sure... theres a spectrum.   thanks for the Shars recommendation


macardoso said:


> China can make nice stuff for people willing to pay fair price for it


Agreed... the trouble is discerning them


markba633csi said:


> Definitely look for a small bench grinder if you don't have one. You can use the 1/2" endmills in aluminum but they're too big for steel with the machine you have. Use slow speeds for steel cutting and use oil.


Yep... you can see the grinder just to the right of the mill.   I honestly hate grinding through as I hate the mess.   I even picked up a portaband to skip cutoff wheels etc.  I'll have to develop some dust collection.  On the topic after making some chips on the lathe (still need to work on a nice finish) i've got to find a way to contain the chips a little better as well.   cleanup was a bummer.

I read not to use oil with carbide unless its constant flood or mist coolant.  But def on HSS.


macardoso said:


> I see a few of the carbide endmills you have are made specifically for aluminum. These would be the 2 and 3 flute cutters with sharp edges, deep flutes, and a white gold coating (ZrN). You'll find these to do an awesome job on Aluminum unless they're beat up.


Yep.   I looked up all the mfg specs on the endmills to see what the heck i had.   I have a bunch of that, now i just need to find some aluminum.  I used to have a metal supply that sold large pieces of all kinds of stock.   and whatever cutoffs were left about after that were sold at discount prices.   they were all home shop sized.   unfortunately i moved from there so going to have to try to find another.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 13, 2020)

ttabbal said:


> I prefer straight shank in a collet. In theory integral R8 can be more accurate, but I haven't noticed any problems.



What makes you prefer straight shank?  Wider availability and interchangeability of specific tooling? Or is there another reason I'm missing.


----------



## ttabbal (Oct 13, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> What makes you prefer straight shank?  Wider availability and interchangeability of specific tooling? Or is there another reason I'm missing.




It's just preference, so keep that in mind. The biggest reason is that I can commonly use the same collet for a few tools, so I spend less time swapping the collet. I can also easily use it if I have the ER40 adapter installed by just swapping the collet at the end, not removing the whole adapter. While it doesn't really apply to the flycutter, it's also nice to be able to hold things in other tools with drill chucks and other collets. While an R8 only works in the mill, I can use a straight shank on my lathe as well. 

It's kind of a small thing, but I like having more options.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 13, 2020)

ttabbal said:


> The biggest reason is that I can commonly use the same collet for a few tools, so I spend less time swapping the collet.



Figured.   That makes sense.  probably makes buying second hand things easier as well.


----------



## extropic (Oct 14, 2020)

I got a kick out of you preparing a cutter inventory spreadsheet. LOL
The organization will serve you well. I don't remember anyone doing it before.

Your list of the next tooling to buy looks good to me except . . .
I have no use for fly cutters or face mills on a light machines. Just keep a good tram and take a few passes with your best biggest endmill. Personal preference. YMMV.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 14, 2020)

extropic said:


> I got a kick out of you preparing a cutter inventory spreadsheet. LOL


Haha yeah i log all my tools.   The cutter list is so big cause I just bought a big lot and didn't know what the heck they were so i looked up all the model numbers.   Its neat cause the mfgs give you all the rates and specs for them. 



extropic said:


> I have no use for fly cutters or face mills on a light machines. Just keep a good tram and take a few passes with your best biggest endmill.


Fair enough.... I have a few 1" ones that could probably try a light pass if needed. But that nice wide fly stroke is aesthetically pleasing.   We'll see.  I've been spending more time working on the lathe a bit so I've got a little while till I move to the mill.  Even then i have the 3 axis DRO to install.

I've got some lathe questions ill probably get up later this week.


----------



## erikmannie (Oct 14, 2020)

You gotta have boring bars. Boring on the lathe is FUN, in my opinion. I used Chinese boring bars & carbide inserts.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 14, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> You gotta have boring bars. Boring on the lathe is FUN, in my opinion. I used Chinese boring bars & carbide inserts.



Indexable or brazed?   I see there are some import kits that could hit two birds having boring head and a bar set that should match my OXA holder size as well.


----------



## erikmannie (Oct 14, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> Indexable or brazed?   I see there are some import kits that could hit two birds having boring head and a bar set that should match my OXA holder size as well.
> View attachment 340506



Indexable. I bought (and wore out) some cheap brazed carbide cutters once, and I am not in a position to resharpen the carbide (I have no green wheel).

I really like carbide inserts because you know the geometry is spot on, as I don’t have the experience to achieve that with HSS.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 14, 2020)

Couple of lathe items.

E-STOP Maybe i'm a dweeb but I was surprised there was no E-Stop on the lathe.  Looking around most are pretty low amperage at 120V (3A-10A) which I thought was odd.  You'd figure something needing an E Stop would have some amps cranking through.   The manual for the G4000 calls out 9A on a 15A circuit.  I can take a current reading at some point but seems like i'm fine.   I'll go pre capacitor.  It'll be nice for an emergency or to cut power when changing work pieces or belts rather than unplugging.   The power toggle has you reaching across the whole machine and chuck to shut off.




CHIP SHIELD.  I'll probably fab up a super simple chip shield out of a hinge and some plexi.  My bench is pretty high and the lathe is very close to face level.  Also maybe a little something to keep moderate chips off the bed in front of the carriage.


CHIP CONTAINMENT I'll probably find some sort of lip or catch for the workbench.   maybe my feeds etc are screwy but i got crap everywhere even with a little running.   Shop vac and magnetic broom made quick work of it.  Any tips?


FEEDS- the feed rate chart they gave was surprisingly minimal. It only shows 4 feed rates using the quick-change box and only 2 changegear combos. I have a whole stack of change gears which would make me think that there are a bunch of extra feed rates that aren't listed (besides threading) am i wrong here? Are the threading and feed rate selector box completely separate? they dont seem like they are. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





FINISH- I've been getting crappy finishes (well decent i guess).   I've gotta relook the speed feed charts as i was just winging it but i couldnt get any of those mirror passes i always see people get.   i tried a few different tools and speeds/cuts.   Not sure of the metal type but bits are all carbide.   I was running no oil.  I'll play some more but any hints?


----------



## ttabbal (Oct 14, 2020)

For the e-stop, you can use those switches if you use them with a relay, sometimes called a "contactor". You have the e-stop switch run the coil, the contacts go to the main switch. You can also use them with the motor controller like a VFD if your machine has one. 

Chips flying, yeah, happens. You can make various shields to try to keep them in place, or just accept it. I find the mill is far more messy, but the lathe can sure fling stuff once in a while. 

The feed rates, and threading, are set with change gears. You can likely find a gear set with a slower feed to get better finish. That chart shows 4.7 thous/rev as the slowest rate with those gears. It's not uncommon for me to run 1 thou/rev for a finish pass. There is likely a chart somewhere in the documentation that shows the recommended setups. And there have been a few people that have made spreadsheets and such to calculate them. Getting everything to fit is another issue as well.  

For finish, carbide on small machines can be iffy that way. You can do better if you use the right feeds and speeds, but HSS will likely still outdo it. If you want to stick to inserts, try some polished inserts usually made for aluminum. They tend to be sharper and for the lighter loads we use at home, they hold up well in steel as well. And get some known material that is known to finish well. Starting with unknown material just complicates things. Even just 6061 aluminum is a good place to start. 1018 steel is not. I've had good luck with 12L14 and 303 stainless as well.


----------



## macardoso (Oct 15, 2020)

ttabbal said:


> For finish, carbide on small machines can be iffy that way. You can do better if you use the right feeds and speeds, but HSS will likely still outdo it. If you want to stick to inserts, try some polished inserts usually made for aluminum. They tend to be sharper and for the lighter loads we use at home, they hold up well in steel as well. And get some known material that is known to finish well. Starting with unknown material just complicates things. Even just 6061 aluminum is a good place to start. 1018 steel is not. I've had good luck with 12L14 and 303 stainless as well.



+1 to this.

I personally love the CCGX or CCGT inserts. Specifically the CCGX32.50 is my weapon of choice for a lot of things.






						CCGX 32.50 LH YD101 Carbide Insert
					

Shars Tool




					www.shars.com
				




Shars sells the asian brand ZCC for a lot of their inserts. They seem pretty high quality, much much better than Banggood or AliExpress inserts, but they cost proportionately more.

These inserts are pressed and then ground to a sharp edge (compared to pressed only for most steel cutting inserts). This dramatically reduces cutting forces at the expense of a weaker edge. I've found these to have near infinite life in aluminum and a pretty good life in steel and stainless. In fact these would be the only thing I'd use in stainless.

The last digit in the designation (CCGX32.5*0*) indicates the corner radius. 0 = sharp, 1 = medium, 2 = large. The larger the radius, the faster you can feed for a desired surface finish. This however increases cutting forces and messes with dimensional accuracy. I prefer the sharp (0) corner since cutting forces are minimized and I can get within 2-3 tenths of my desired diameter without too much hassle. I'm also not in a rush and don't mind a longer machining time to get a nice finish.

The other benefit is the minimum depth of cut. With all tools, the sharpness of the edge indicates the minimum depth of cut at which the tool will no longer cut material and instead rub over the surface. With many steel focused inserts, this could be as large as 0.015" giving you very little flexibility to dial in a finishing pass (hence some people's preference for HSS). With these inserts, I've done depth of cuts in the 0.0005" range and still had it form a real chip. Once you get dust or crumbles, then you are no longer cutting.

I use these inserts for general roughing and finishing in Aluminum (my 12x36 lathe can take a 0.25" DOC with these!) and for finishing only in steel. If I need bulk material removal in steel, I will use a steel finishing insert. My lathe is not large enough to use general purpose or roughing steel inserts.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 16, 2020)

ttabbal said:


> For the e-stop, you can use those switches if you use them with a relay, sometimes called a "contactor". You have the e-stop switch run the coil, the contacts go to the main switch. You can also use them with the motor controller like a VFD if your machine has one.


Thanks.   I'm familiar with those.  I was just surprised that they were so low.   while high current through a switch isn't ideal, that cutoff for such a small unit would be most direct, less parts to fail, and faster imo.   seems like i fall under its limits so ill probably give it a whirl at some point.



ttabbal said:


> Chips flying, yeah, happens. You can make various shields to try to keep them in place, or just accept it. I find the mill is far more messy, but the lathe can sure fling stuff once in a while.


Figured as much.   Not overly concerned. Just poking to see if anyone had clever solutions to share.



ttabbal said:


> The feed rates, and threading, are set with change gears. You can likely find a gear set with a slower feed to get better finish. That chart shows 4.7 thous/rev as the slowest rate with those gears. It's not uncommon for me to run 1 thou/rev for a finish pass. There is likely a chart somewhere in the documentation that shows the recommended setups. And there have been a few people that have made spreadsheets and such to calculate them. Getting everything to fit is another issue as well.


that chart i posted is all that exists in the documentation.   Its not surprising.   The Grizzly unit is just the rebranded China unit with slightly better customer service and maybe a bit better manual.  I'm just surprised they didnt put in the chart all the speeds or ratios.   they only give values for those lever positions and change gears.   glad to hear i'm not taking crazy pills and i can make them slower than documented with the change gears.



ttabbal said:


> For finish, carbide on small machines can be iffy that way. You can do better if you use the right feeds and speeds, but HSS will likely still outdo it. If you want to stick to inserts, try some polished inserts usually made for aluminum. They tend to be sharper and for the lighter loads we use at home, they hold up well in steel as well. And get some known material that is known to finish well. Starting with unknown material just complicates things. Even just 6061 aluminum is a good place to start. 1018 steel is not. I've had good luck with 12L14 and 303 stainless as well.


yeah i was winging it.   I'll try to looks some things up for correct feeds/speeds.   was just excited to make some chips.  I was just leveraging what came with the lathe.   I'm working on getting my hands on some HSS blanks.  i just like the no fuss buy and replace sharp insert nature of indexable carbides.  Do they make HSS inserts?

As far as materials... I gathered up some scraps I've run across over the years and was giving it a whirl.   I wager a lot of my work will be on scraps so i have to figure out eventually how to adjust on the fly.  I have to find a place to get some stock. https://www.onlinemetals.com/ seems reasonable.   I used to live near Fazzio's in South Jersey before their big reno.   they were great because at the time you could walk to the stock warehouse and pickup cutoffs for fractions of the price.   They also sold bolts by weight and had this section that was just all old odd random equipment and parts i guess people turn in for scrap that you could rummage through.  Not sure what its like now.   They were all more than adequate for my needs as a student at the time.   I have to see if there is a place by me now that can do that.    One of these places is nearby https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/ but their online pricing is significantly higher so ill have to give them a call i guess and to see what's up.



macardoso said:


> I personally love the CCGX or CCGT inserts. Specifically the CCGX32.50 is my weapon of choice for a lot of things.
> Shars sells the asian brand ZCC for a lot of their inserts. They seem pretty high quality, much much better than Banggood or AliExpress inserts, but they cost proportionately more.
> 
> These inserts are pressed and then ground to a sharp edge (compared to pressed only for most steel cutting inserts). This dramatically reduces cutting forces at the expense of a weaker edge. I've found these to have near infinite life in aluminum and a pretty good life in steel and stainless. In fact these would be the only thing I'd use in stainless.
> ...


ooooo thanks for the info.   Yeah i was looking for a good chart about all the different shapes, tips, angles etc of cutters and what they were optimal for.  I'm gonna work on getting some HSS but I've got all this now which can't be useless so i'd like to leverage it.  I will say the next size down from 1/2 probably would have been optimal for these holders but they fit.   I almost got an AXA but it would have put these cutters over the center line of the lathe from my math and I was told the added rigidity would exceed the rest of what my mill could leverage anyways. soooo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯







macardoso said:


> The other benefit is the minimum depth of cut. With all tools, the sharpness of the edge indicates the minimum depth of cut at which the tool will no longer cut material and instead rub over the surface. With many steel focused inserts, this could be as large as 0.015" giving you very little flexibility to dial in a finishing pass (hence some people's preference for HSS). With these inserts, I've done depth of cuts in the 0.0005" range and still had it form a real chip. Once you get dust or crumbles, then you are no longer cutting.



Interesting.   I'll have to find a chart that shows what all my chips should be looking like.


----------



## Dabbler (Oct 16, 2020)

Just a quick note on end mills.  they are consumable, and one day you will be able to resharpen them, but until then, keep all you have.

You can do good work on a small mill by plunge milling on the larger cutters.  End mills larger than 1/2 inch will tax your mill, however, so the bigger ones might go quite safely...  

It looks like you got a fantastic setup in two easy steps!  Well done!


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 16, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> Just a quick note on end mills. they are consumable, and one day you will be able to resharpen them, but until then, keep all you have.


Indeed.   This place looks very reasonable for sharpening.  



			http://endmill-sharpening.com/Gruschow_Grinding_Price_List_04.01.2017.pdf
		


After looking up the retail for some of these bits it seems it would definitely be worth it.  But I probably dont need 15 duplicates and some of the bigger ones might be lost on me needs.  I'm certainly not a person to get rid of things but I'm going to see if I can sell off or barter a bit of the excess for some other things I could use.  



Dabbler said:


> You can do good work on a small mill by plunge milling on the larger cutters. End mills larger than 1/2 inch will tax your mill, however, so the bigger ones might go quite safely...



Thanks for the tip.   Yeah some of those endmills are hefty boys.



Dabbler said:


> It looks like you got a fantastic setup in two easy steps! Well done!



Haha thanks!   I think a cnc might be somewhere in my future, but I think this is a magnificent starting point.

Appreciate all the input!  I dont really have anyone in my local circles that's into this stuff so the forum is fantastic.


----------



## Dabbler (Oct 16, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> I dont really have anyone in my local circles that's into this stuff so the forum is fantastic.



I felt the same for years.  Nowadays in our city we have a forum for hobby metalworkers with 100+ members, and before Covid19, we used to get together.  I also found another group, completely different, that we pool some specialized tools together.

In your area there are probably hundreds of people doing metalwork.  Check Kijiji and Craiglist ads for "wanted lathe' and "Wanted milling machine", and also for sale listings - sometimes a guy is selling a machine they've upgraded from.  Don't be afraid to contact them with th question "are you also a metalworker?"  I've met some great contacts that way.


----------



## macardoso (Oct 16, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> Appreciate all the input! I dont really have anyone in my local circles that's into this stuff so the forum is fantastic.



I think a lot of us feel this way! We are glad to have you here.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 16, 2020)

Glad to be here.  I dabble in tons of hobbies in all kinds of fields.   I guess I'm one of the few not going stir crazy during the pandemic because of it.   Being locked down means project time!


----------



## yendor (Oct 16, 2020)

As with you I'm relatively new to this hobby stuff. 
I have an older Atlas QCGB 42 and an RF-30 Mill. 
I'm learning as I go and have collected some End Mills and Lathe tooling. Some very similar to yours. 
And while I'm still employed but locked down. I would be part of the crowd that was on over 100 flights a year and now haven't seen an airplane since Feb. ( and Really don't miss it). 
I get to play in my shop on weekends not so much nights.
This site has taught me a lot, and I appreciate all the people here who give of their knowledge and experience freely. 
I'm with you on looking for places to pick up cheaper materials to work with.
I get the check with local shops for scraps and junk yards but with all the restrictions on things today, I'm hesitant to go wandering into those places uninvited. 
So... making do with what I can.
Glad to hear I'm not alone.


----------



## Aaron_W (Oct 16, 2020)

CounterSunkenTreasure said:


> Glad to be here.  I dabble in tons of hobbies in all kinds of fields.   I guess I'm one of the few not going stir crazy during the pandemic because of it.   Being locked down means project time!



Hobbies are great, I feel bad for people without a hobby to enjoy. I'm recently retired and have had people I worked with ask "don't you get bored sitting around the house"?

No! I have a 110 year old house, a 6 year old son and lots of hobbies, I don't have time to get bored.


----------



## ttabbal (Oct 16, 2020)

Turning
		


There's some HSS insert tools. They aren't very common, but it's another option. LMS used to stock those as well, not sure if they still do. 

For stock, Metal Supermarkets near me doesn't list remnants. You have to go check them out in person and just see what they have. They generally have a decent selection and it's reasonably priced. There are some ebay sellers that are reasonably competitive as well, even considering shipping. Hobby Metal Kits at https://hobbymetalkits.com/shop is pretty good for small lengths as well.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 17, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> Nowadays in our city we have a forum for hobby metalworkers with 100+ members, and before Covid19, we used to get together. I also found another group, completely different, that we pool some specialized tools together.


That's pretty neat!  I feel like there are tons of niche tools that aren't worth owning so sharing is awesome.



yendor said:


> 100 flights a year and now haven't seen an airplane since Feb. ( and Really don't miss it).


Ouch.  Well i hope employment is still there but i wouldn't miss the price paid for diamond status either.



yendor said:


> As with you I'm relatively new to this hobby stuff.
> I have an older Atlas QCGB 42 and an RF-30 Mill.


Nice scores!



yendor said:


> I'm with you on looking for places to pick up cheaper materials to work with.
> I get the check with local shops for scraps and junk yards but with all the restrictions on things today, I'm hesitant to go wandering into those places uninvited.
> So... making do with what I can.
> Glad to hear I'm not alone.


We're not too far apart.   I'll let you know what i find.  I also sent you the PM about Fazzio's in Glassboro.  Haven't been there in years but they were friendly enough for non professionals back in 07 when i went there.



Aaron_W said:


> No! I have a 110 year old house, a 6 year old son and lots of hobbies, I don't have time to get bored.


haha fact, between the house, dog, and kid and a DIY mentality the only thing i'm ever short on is time or motivation.



ttabbal said:


> There's some HSS insert tools. They aren't very common, but it's another option.


yikes those are pricey... I'l probably just buy a batch of blanks.



ttabbal said:


> For stock, Metal Supermarkets near me doesn't list remnants. You have to go check them out in person and just see what they have.


Good tip.   I'll see whats up.   Thanks for the links.

Found some aluminum and the results were much more pleasant.



Although i was getting lotsa unbroken strands that wanted to tangle in the lead screw etc.  When i cranked up the depth of cut i was getting better chipping.   I'll have to play with it more but how do you mitigate them without stopping?  I had grabbed some of the ones that made it far enough from the moving bits and yanked them with some needle nose pliers but it wasn't quite optimal.  One found its way under the headstock into the gear/pulleybox... haha.





these lead screw telescoping spring covers /bellows seem cool.  I'll search around and report back what i find.


----------



## ttabbal (Oct 17, 2020)

That's a down side of working aluminum. Deeper cuts help, I also hold a brush next to the tool to help break the chip. Sometimes using pliers to remove the chips is the best option. Aluminum specific inserts and tool grinds can help as well. 

My lathe came with a leadscrew cover like that. I like it and have never had a problem with it.


----------



## Cadillac STS (Oct 17, 2020)

I scanned over the thread but I’m late to it and someone else might have suggested these 

Be sure to have a horizontal bandsaw to cut stock down to size. The first time you are cutting metal with a hacksaw you will definitely understand

Be sure to be ready with a shop vac for cleaning up the floor and the machines. Can also use it to catch chips while cutting.


----------



## CounterSunkenTreasure (Oct 17, 2020)

ttabbal said:


> I also hold a brush next to the tool to help break the chip. Sometimes using pliers to remove the chips is the best option. Aluminum specific inserts and tool grinds can help as well.


oooo i like the brush idea.   i keep an old painbrush i shortened the bristles on the clean the machine after working and that would be great.   I like that a lot better than holding hard parts like pliers near all the spinning parts.



ttabbal said:


> My lathe came with a leadscrew cover like that. I like it and have never had a problem with it.


Looks like its about $30 bucks direct from china without mounts and a bagillion day shipping and significantly more stateside as a kit.     I was surprised as i figured it would be like a $10 material. I'll keep it on the maybe list i suppose



Cadillac STS said:


> Be sure to have a horizontal bandsaw to cut stock down to size. The first time you are cutting metal with a hacksaw you will definitely understand


Picked up a portable band saw a while back.  I absolutly adore that thing.   Hacksaws blow and cutoff wheels are a goddarn mess.   This thing is quiet, clean, and effortless.   Ill need a new blade soon probably so ill have to do some tooth count research.



Cadillac STS said:


> Be sure to be ready with a shop vac for cleaning up the floor and the machines. Can also use it to catch chips while cutting.



Yep!  got that all setup.   i like the idea to intercept right at the machine!  thanks!


----------



## Cadillac STS (Oct 17, 2020)

Here is a tip to mount the 1.25 inch vacuum end with a Ram mount setup. They have a larger size and a claw end for it. Get 3-4 links and mount the other end to your mill so it follows where the end mill goes.

high quality stuff and you can order any price you want









						Popular Components - C Size
					

RAM® Mounts is the industry leader in rugged motorcycle and car phone mounts, rugged tablet mounts for trucks, forklift mounts, and more. Find the perfect device mount for your car, truck, motorcycle, plane, forklift, snowmobile & many more.




					www.rammount.com


----------

