# Electric Heat



## Jester966 (Feb 23, 2016)

My shop is a single car garage in Ontario Canada with no heat.  In the winter I typically preheat the garage with a propane heater (cracking the overhead door for ventilation) before I start working.  I know this creates moisture as a bi-product but fortunately I haven't had any rust issues yet.  I always spray my machines down with WD40 and/or way oil when I'm done with them.

I recently purchased a 1500w infrared heater with the idea of keeping it on low (500w) all the time in order to keep the garage slightly above the outside temperature, and turn it up when I'm actually going to work.  It's been relatively mild since I bought it so a bit hard to really test it yet, but it doesn't seem to be helping much if at all.  I understand that infrared heaters don't heat the air but rather the objects, but was given the impression it would heat the floor and equipment which would then slightly warm the surrounding air.  Even set on high though it seems as though it's not really keeping the garage any warmer - I have to literally stand within a few feet directly in front to feel any warmth and am wondering if it's actually making any difference at all by leaving it on.

Anyone else heating their shops with electric heat, even just to raise the temperature a few degrees?  Any thoughts on infrared vs other methods?  I've met one guy who leaves a couple of spot lights on during the winter, though it seemed unnecessarily inefficient.  I know electric is probably the most expensive but it's my only option right now.  I was lead to believe that infrared was the most "efficient" way to produce heat electrically, but at $400 for the unit I'm not so sure I made the right decision.


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## Tony Wells (Feb 23, 2016)

I know it is no comparison as far as overall climate goes, but my choice is either electric or propane. We are not on a supply line for NG here. I have a 5 ton A/C unit, with 15kw electric elements (3 x 5kw). It doesn't seem to cost any more than keeping cool in the summer. In fact, probably costs less, as I don't like a really warm shop, but I do like a cool one. I have never really thought electric heat was very efficient, but I have done no studies or comparisons myself. I am using propane for my home heat, and I do not like the price of it. Since the shop is a little distant from the house, I would have to buy or lease another tank, then buy the gas. Electric also seems safer to me as far as flammable materials handling goes.

I have little exposure to the IR radiant style heaters, but I have been told they are efficient.


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## Eddyde (Feb 23, 2016)

It is, Electric resistance heating is 100% efficient, that is all the energy used by the heating element will go to produce heat. If the heater has a fan, some energy will be used for that. However, electricity is usually the most expensive form of delivered energy, so electric heating may not be the most cost effective.


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## David VanNorman (Feb 24, 2016)

I have  I believe iut is a 15000Watt heater in my shop . I set it down to do about 50 thru  the winter . I set it up to work in the shop. I don't have a rust problem and it is not to bad to work out there. The walls are insulated w8th the 2" foil on both side foam . The ceiling  I could not get the 2"  so I used the 1"  .I have a garage door eith the 1" also I maybe use more electric but it not bad to work out there.


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## Steve Shannon (Feb 24, 2016)

I have a 230 vAC electric baseboard heater, about a 1.5kw unit.  My shop is 24 x 16. Four inches of fiberglass in the walls and 11 inches in the ceiling. The heater has no problem keeping the shop warm.  The temperatures overnight routinely drop below 0 F. I estimate my operational cost to be about $50 monthly in the winter.  I'm at just over a mile in elevation next to the continental divide in Butte, Montana. Gas heat would cost even less.


 Steve Shannon, P.E. 
Edited to correct wattage of heater. I had it off in order to install mop board and discovered I was wrong.


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## wrat (Feb 24, 2016)

Heating (and cooling) starts with insulation.  Are the walls and ceiling insulated?  Most garages near me have no insulation except in the wall adjoining the house.

I mention this because i had exactly the same problem once with an uninsulated large metal building.  Like you, I couldn't get close enough to the heater to do any good.  And that was 135K BTU torpedo unit.

Then there's that overhead door.  They leak horribly.  Even 'insulated' ones, which are little more that foam panels with an inch of gap in-between, still have that notoriously ineffective seal across the bottom.  I'm surprised you had to crack the overhead door for ventilation.  They're usually leaky enough.

So those two items are where you start.  If the room isn't buttoned up pretty snug, there is literally no amount of heat you can throw at it and remain warm.

However, it's possible you have that covered.  If so, congrats.  If not, you're looking at working in a snowmobile suit with large electric bills.  

I've heard those "heat the object" claims about the infrared radiant heaters and frankly have no idea what it means.  I thought heat was heat.  How their heater could tell the difference between objects like air molecules from objects like skin molecules always seemed a bit of a mystery to me.  All i know is my wife bought one and still complained about the cold.

Wrat  <--hates working in the cold


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## Billh50 (Feb 24, 2016)

I have never had good luck with the electric heaters in my garage. I bought a torpedo heater that runs on kerosene and that works well. I crack the garage door open a bit and fire it up. Within 10 minutes it is nice and warm. If I shut it off and close the door it will even stay warm for a couple hours. But if I had the room I would do what my friend does. He bought a side draft hot air oil furnace and put it in the corner. Vented it out the wall and ran a couple hose ducts to blow hot air around the garage. He uses a 25 gallon drum for the oil. Works like a charm.


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## echesak (Feb 24, 2016)

I can't really complain about the weather, except in the Summer, where it can get to 100F in the garage.  But in the Winter, I'll only spot heat wherever I'm standing.  This keeps me comfortable, without heating the whole garage.  I use a 1500 W electric heater for this.  

Also keep in mind that if your shop is anything like mine, it has 3 tons of cast iron & steel in the machines and probably a few hundred more lbs of stock.  These are sitting at the garage ambient and it takes a lot of energy to heat up this quantity of material.  There are many days here, especially in the Spring where the nights are cold but days are warm.  Sometimes it will be in the high 70's/low 80's outside.  But the shop will still be in the 50's or 60's because of this heat sink effect.  For me, it's more of a problem in the Summer, trying to cool the place.

Just something to consider...


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## wrat (Feb 24, 2016)

echesak said:


> Also keep in mind that if your shop is anything like mine, it has 3 tons of cast iron & steel in the machines and probably a few hundred more lbs of stock.


That is so completely true.

1976, Cessna Aircraft.  They warned me.  Working 3rd shift (midnite-7am).  We're the first ones in after he customary holiday Christmas/NY shutdown.  So it's midnight on 3Jan or so.  They STARTED the boilers about then.  Every machine in the place had cold-soaked for over 10 days.  Wow.  That was a memorable shift.

The organic coolant we called "milk" had all spoiled and smelled just like, you guess it, spoiled milk.  Imagine 75 machines turning on their coolant.  Eek.  That took a while to get used to. 

And we had to work all bundled up because even though the heat was going, a few jillion tons of iron said otherwise.  And every machine was turning whether it had an operator or not, just to get the bearings up to temp while the building warmed up.

Of course, it was all nice and cozy by the time the prima donna crew on 1st shift showed up.  A few mentioned how they faintly detected an odd smell.  Made me wanna hit them.

Wrat


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## Eddyde (Feb 24, 2016)

echesak said:


> I can't really complain about the weather, except in the Summer, where it can get to 100F in the garage.  But in the Winter, I'll only spot heat wherever I'm standing.  This keeps me comfortable, without heating the whole garage.  I use a 1500 W electric heater for this.
> 
> Also keep in mind that if your shop is anything like mine, it has 3 tons of cast iron & steel in the machines and probably a few hundred more lbs of stock.  These are sitting at the garage ambient and it takes a lot of energy to heat up this quantity of material.  There are many days here, especially in the Spring where the nights are cold but days are warm.  Sometimes it will be in the high 70's/low 80's outside.  But the shop will still be in the 50's or 60's because of this heat sink effect.  For me, it's more of a problem in the Summer, trying to cool the place.
> 
> Just something to consider...


Is your shop insulated? Some Foil Faced R-19 insulation between the roof rafters and FF R-13  in the wall cavities (Foil facing exterior of building), will help keep it cool in the summer as well as even out the temperature swings in the spring.


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## fretsman (Feb 24, 2016)

Just to add.....I have found those oil filled electric heaters are absolutely great. Yes, they are not as efficient as gas, but a lot better than baseboard or element style heaters.


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## Steve Shannon (Feb 24, 2016)

Any kind of electric heater is nearly 100% efficient because all of the power is converted to heat. Gas is always less efficient, but almost always cheaper.  Oil filled heaters feel better because they have more thermal mass; they smooth out the temperature variations. In a building with good insulation and no drafts you probably wouldn't feel a difference. 


 Steve Shannon


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## RJSakowski (Feb 24, 2016)

As has been said, electric heat is nearly 100% efficient.  However it takes a 15 kw electric heater to equal the output of a 50,000 btu torpedo heater.


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## RJSakowski (Feb 24, 2016)

Jester966 said:


> My shop is a single car garage in Ontario Canada with no heat.  In the winter I typically preheat the garage with a propane heater (cracking the overhead door for ventilation) before I start working.  I know this creates moisture as a bi-product but fortunately I haven't had any rust issues yet.  I always spray my machines down with WD40 and/or way oil when I'm done with them.
> 
> I recently purchased a 1500w infrared heater with the idea of keeping it on low (500w) all the time in order to keep the garage slightly above the outside temperature, and turn it up when I'm actually going to work.  It's been relatively mild since I bought it so a bit hard to really test it yet, but it doesn't seem to be helping much if at all.  I understand that infrared heaters don't heat the air but rather the objects, but was given the impression it would heat the floor and equipment which would then slightly warm the surrounding air.  Even set on high though it seems as though it's not really keeping the garage any warmer - I have to literally stand within a few feet directly in front to feel any warmth and am wondering if it's actually making any difference at all by leaving it on.
> 
> Anyone else heating their shops with electric heat, even just to raise the temperature a few degrees?  Any thoughts on infrared vs other methods?  I've met one guy who leaves a couple of spot lights on during the winter, though it seemed unnecessarily inefficient.  I know electric is probably the most expensive but it's my only option right now.  I was lead to believe that infrared was the most "efficient" way to produce heat electrically, but at $400 for the unit I'm not so sure I made the right decision.



To answer the question about radiant heating, heat is conveyed by one or more of three mechanisms, conduction, convection, and radiation.  With conduction, heat in the form of energized molecules energizes adjacent molecules, passing the heat energy along.  With convection, warmed liquids or gasses rise due to decreased density being replaced by cooler fluids and circulating the fluid. 

Radiant heat transfer happens because infrared light is radiated to absorbing objects.  The intervening space is not heated.  We get heat from the Sun by radiation.   The space between the Earth and the Sun remains close to absolute zero. Just as standing in front of a blazing fire only warms the side facing the flames, a radiant heater is not going warm the back side of a machine.  Its value is like that of a fireplace; to give you that warm and cozy feeling.  You can be in an otherwise cold room but have a fire going and feel warm.  The same with radiant heating.


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## drom68 (Feb 25, 2016)

I have a 26 x 36 shop.  It is insulated, R19 on the walls and R32 in the ceiling.  I have a small electric heater that can warm it up on a cold winter day after a cold winter night.  This winter has been mild, so I have not had to upgrade my heater.  

I am looking for a heater, I am not sure I will go electric.  My other options are propane, wood or coal.  Do I flip a switch or do I load up the stove and empty the ash pan.  I will probably go propane.  I can hang it off the ceiling and not take up floor space.  

I am not a fan of electric heat, it works great but the cost is too high.


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## BGHansen (Feb 25, 2016)

Conversion for Watts to BTU/hr:  1 Watt = 3.4 BTU/hr.  Tractor Supply Company sells an electric heater for about $280 that puts out 17,000 BTU's which they say will heat a 500 square foot area.  17,000 BTU's is roughly 5000 Watts.  That means your 500 Watt heater will heat about 50 square feet or 7 x 7.  Of course, it all depends on the temperature delta and the amount of iron you're trying to warm up.  Our electric cost is about $0.11 per kilowatt hour.  That TSC heater would cost me about $0.55 per hour to run.

My shop is 32 x 40 with my metal side taking up about 20 x 32.  I use a 30,000 BTU propane heater that raises the temp about 20 degrees in 30 minutes.  I have a couple of ceiling fans to help keep the warm air down.  I leave them on in the spring just to keep air moving in the shop and to help with rust.  I have a 100 lbs. tank which easily lasts me a season.  Propane weighs 4.2 lbs. per gallon so my 100 lbs. tank holds a little over 20 gallons.  Propane is running around $2/gallon this year so around $40 to fill the tank.  I don't have an hour meter on the propane heater, but am pretty sure I'm run it for at least 80 hours over the past two winters.  It figures out to about half the cost of electricity for me.

Bruce


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## kvt (Feb 25, 2016)

I would still like to find or build a forced air heater that uses used oil,   they had one in AK at the Auto Hobby shop that would heat a 20 bay shop with some of he doors open to a nice temp,  and with doors closed you would be sweating working in there.   All  it used was used engine oil and used ATF.  and I get enough of that from the cars all year long. (drive to much I guess)  
The other thing was it was osha, and epa approved.   Or at least they said it was.   But for right now in our warm winters, I use a small propane heater that is designed for indoor use.   It will heat the single care garage up to short sleeve temp in about 1/2 hour then turn down to med/low and maintain it.


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## Brain Coral (Feb 26, 2016)

Hi Jester 

I have no experience with infrared heaters. But, I do heat my shop (26' x 36') with electric baseboard heaters. They will come on if the temperature gets below 5º C. My ceiling height is 10'6", but it only takes an hour or so before it's comfortable enough for just a t-shirt. I certainly notice the rise in my power bill when I'm using the shop a lot, but we're only talking about $40.00 a month more. I have zero issues with rust and condensation for the last 8 years. I have a total of 6 windows and a 10'x8' garage door, so I think that my heating bills for all of the enjoyment I get out of it is worth every penny.

Brian


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## Steve Shannon (Feb 26, 2016)

Brain, that's how I feel too. I just leave the thermostat set to 65F. I can walk out there and work for ten minutes or two hours. 


 Steve Shannon


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## Mr. Fixit (Feb 27, 2016)

Jester966 said:


> My shop is a single car garage in Ontario Canada with no heat.  In the winter I typically preheat the garage with a propane heater (cracking the overhead door for ventilation) before I start working.  I know this creates moisture as a bi-product but fortunately I haven't had any rust issues yet.  I always spray my machines down with WD40 and/or way oil when I'm done with them.
> 
> I recently purchased a 1500w infrared heater with the idea of keeping it on low (500w) all the time in order to keep the garage slightly above the outside temperature, and turn it up when I'm actually going to work.  It's been relatively mild since I bought it so a bit hard to really test it yet, but it doesn't seem to be helping much if at all.  I understand that infrared heaters don't heat the air but rather the objects, but was given the impression it would heat the floor and equipment which would then slightly warm the surrounding air.  Even set on high though it seems as though it's not really keeping the garage any warmer - I have to literally stand within a few feet directly in front to feel any warmth and am wondering if it's actually making any difference at all by leaving it on.
> 
> Anyone else heating their shops with electric heat, even just to raise the temperature a few degrees?  Any thoughts on infrared vs other methods?  I've met one guy who leaves a couple of spot lights on during the winter, though it seemed unnecessarily inefficient.  I know electric is probably the most expensive but it's my only option right now.  I was lead to believe that infrared was the most "efficient" way to produce heat electrically, but at $400 for the unit I'm not so sure I made the right decision.


Hello , while it is a bit warmer here- 200 miles from Mexico I heat my shop with a electric heater hung from ceiling, while I don't bring the temp up  to 70 I've found found that 45-50 is arm enough with a light jacket on. My shop is 30x40 with 8'6" height with R-19 in walls and R-32 in ceiling. The biggest problem is leaving the heater on when I leave the shop (it is resistance heating with a forced air fan,that turns off when up to temp) My wife is not very kind when the electric bill comes in..


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## WyoGreen (Feb 27, 2016)

As others have mentioned, make sure the place is well insulated. When I built my shop, I used 6 inch walls so I could get them to R-19. No windows on the West, North or East walls. The only windows are on the South wall, and the space between windows have hot air solar panels on them. The solar panels keep the shop at 50 degrees most of the time in the dead of winter, 60 degrees in the spring and fall. I have a back up wood stove in case I want things a little warmer, but don't use it much unless it is cloudy outside. Half my shop is for wood working, so the wood stove is where I get rid of my wood scraps. I live in Wyoming, so we have plenty of cold nights at this high elevation, but then we have plenty of sunshine for solar also.

Steve


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## Mark_f (Feb 27, 2016)

I heat my shop with electric. It is small 8 feet by 24 ft. Last year it had no insulation. I use a 1500 watt portable electric heater. It ran non stop Last winter and barely got warm enough to work in. I had to wear a coat in the shop. This summer, I blew insulation in the walls and put 4 to 6 inches in the ceiling . Now it is toasty warm 70 degrees all the time and the heater runs 25 percent of the time instead of 100 percent of the time.  So...... The key is INSULATION! Last winter it cost me $350 to run that heater. This winter it is less than 1/3 the amount.


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## Grandpop (Feb 27, 2016)

I have a 220v mr garage electric heater in my one car garage that I use for shop. I only have 1" foam insulation on the roof,none on walls. It keeps the shop at 50F when set on low, and goes up to about 62 when set nearer toeards high. I only have the internal jumpers set to the middle wattage setting (forget what it is without reading the manual), and haven't had any trouble with temps near zero yet. Since rest of the house is gas, it is easy to compare the electric bills before and after heater. It costs me about $80 a month. I like the full time heat, and even though ng would be cheaper, I especially like no moisture or rust, and noopen flame for when the snowblower is in there.

Next year I am adding another car width garage addition, and haven't made up my mind about heat pump, keeping this heater and turning the watts to max,  or maybe ng


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## rowbare (Feb 28, 2016)

I am in Ottawa so I am dealing with similar weather. I have a single car garage, insulated with an insulated door. I have a ceiling mounted quartz heater that I keep on low all winter. I think it is 750W on low. Outside of the coldest few days of winter, that keeps the temperature in the 10C/50F range. If I am going to work in the shop, I usually just put it on high when I get home and by the time I have supper it is comfortable enough to work. If I need it, I also have a small forced air heater I can supplement it with. On the really cold days, I find something else to do...

It is also nice to have the heater on low for the part of spring and fall where the temperature and humidity is all over the place. It keeps everything just warm enough to avoid flash rusting.

bob


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## FOMOGO (Feb 28, 2016)

How about a pic of your solar panel setup? Thanks, Mike



WyoGreen said:


> As others have mentioned, make sure the place is well insulated. When I built my shop, I used 6 inch walls so I could get them to R-19. No windows on the West, North or East walls. The only windows are on the South wall, and the space between windows have hot air solar panels on them. The solar panels keep the shop at 50 degrees most of the time in the dead of winter, 60 degrees in the spring and fall. I have a back up wood stove in case I want things a little warmer, but don't use it much unless it is cloudy outside. Half my shop is for wood working, so the wood stove is where I get rid of my wood scraps. I live in Wyoming, so we have plenty of cold nights at this high elevation, but then we have plenty of sunshine for solar also.


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## abrace (Mar 22, 2016)

Electric heat is 100% efficient as others have stated, but that really doesn't mean anything in this context. It is a very expensive fuel.

A heat pump (basically an air conditioner run in reverse) is not 100% efficient as it does have some losses, but it will produce more heat per watt of electricity than electric heat will...because you are simply using electricity to compress a gas, and are basically extracting heat from the outdoors and bringing it indoors.

In other words, it really doesn't matter that resistance heat is 100% efficient. What we really care about is economic efficiency. How many BTUs we get per dollar of expense. With that efficiency measurement, resistance heat is nowhere near the top of the heat.

Also, as others have said, a 500W heater is going to be useless in a shop.  That is only about 1700BTUs, which is like farting in the wind.


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## rock_breaker (Mar 25, 2016)

My shop is a former frame residence built in 1948 with little insulation and heated originally by propane. The shop area is the former living/dining room and kitchen at the south end of the building. Weather goes from -10`F to 100`F . Needless to say not much shop work gets done at -10`F.  Heat is provided by a 5 KW wall heater formerly used in a construction office trailer. With electricity at $0.115 per KW hour it  gets expensive to heat the machines for short work periods, consequently longer work periods are planned  when the heat must be turned on. In order to better utilize the heat a 12" "room" fan mounted on the ceiling can be rotated and adjusted to move warm air from the ceiling down to the area in front of the machines.  Have not experienced any rust problems to date.  Handling cold tools is the worst part and when possible gloves are worn but not very often for safety reasons. Work routines are changed to accommodate them.
Have a good day!
Ray


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