# PM-45M Spindle Seals Replacement



## yegg (Nov 30, 2014)

Ok, here it goes.  I am an amateur machinist (not sure I even qualify on  that title) and have had a PM-45M for several years now and love it  (mostly).  The following three (3) pictures are just a reference to the mill itself as there seem to be a few slightly different versions of the machine.

Front (head on) view.





Right side.





Left side.





 I never changed the oil before and decided to go whole hog  now that I have had an oil leak for several months.  I contacted Matt  and he said it had to be the spindle seals and sent me a package of two.  Below is a picture of the two seals as well as the package they came in.  That way you can have the specs as well as a brand.









I read the sticky thread (http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/15361-How-to-change-the-seals-on-the-PM45-Spindle) thoroughly and got ready to do this.

Welcome  to my saga and a few more questions.  Below are a few obligatory shots  showing what we are dealing with.  Everyone on the same page? 

Did anyone notice my first mistake from the pictures above?  That's right....I have a chuck installed still.  Doh!  Step 1 - Make sure you do not have any tooling installed and go ahead and set the draw bar aside as well.

The motor shroud comes off next.





There are also two screws in the control box affixed to the left side of the mill.  All six (6) screws are the same size.





For  whatever reason I never got the tachometer to work (gave up long ago)  even though Matt was amazingly patient and even sent me replacement  parts.  I may revisit this some day.  Don't forget to remove the plate  that is associated with the tachometer.  It is the round disc affixed to the spindle with a simple slotted set screw.





There are four  (4) socket head cap screws holding the motor in place.  I removed those  and left the mounting plate affixed to the motor.  Be careful not to  lose the key.  Below is the motor removed and the key in place.





Here is where the motor shaft and key are inserted into the gear box head/cover.





Next come the six socket head cap screws that hold the cover on the gear box.  Forgive the out of focus picture.  What you can't make out are two locating pins.  This makes it oh so fun when pulling the head/cover off of the gear box.  Oh, and there are a few other things that you will come to understand that make pulling the cover off.





Next up is the cover on its top and the gear train displayed.





Does this look different than the other threads?  YES IT DOES.  This is where the fun began for me.  More on this to come.  The pictures you see in some other posts do not have all four (4) gear shafts in place.  Three pieces were found after draining the oil from the head.  Here they are:





Above are a gear from the shaft that is directly turned by the motor, the key for that gear, and the lever bracket.  The lever bracket is what pushes the gears between low, middle, and high gear ranges.  Here is a better picture of the lever bracket.





Here is a picture of where the lever bracket sits followed by the lever bracket in place on the lever rod.  It s not affixed in any way.  It just sits on the post.









This is what took some trial and error in figuring out how to put this beast back together.  If some of the pictures look out of sequence, they probably are.  I had this thing apart several times and wound up doing two (2) oil changes before successfully getting ti back together.  I would recommend removing the two middle gear shafts at this point.

Here is the first shaft removed from the cover.  Take note of the teflon tape around the gear that is rotated by the motor.  I put two layers on the shaft and that got the gear to remain in place during assembly.  Until I did that, that stupid gear fell off.  It took about six (6) times of that nonsense before I gave up, dropped back, and punted.  What the pictures do not show is that I trimmed the excess after the gear was in place.





These are just other shots at a slightly different angle.  I did not bother to take pictures of the second shaft removed.  I figured it is enough to say remove the middle two and let it go at that.  Oh, and have fun removing them.  They do not just slip out of the bearings.  That was a pain in itself.  I had to use a clamp to grip the shaft and then cantilever the shaft upwards.  Yeah, it sounds simple.  It took about half an hour and much cussing to get it done.  And let's not even discuss how I came to the conclusion that these two shafts have to come off in order to reassemble the mill.  That in itself will get my blood pressure rising and require me to drink heavily.









Next up in our little story is the gear shaft that controls the gear speed ranges.  The lever bracket actually sits between the gear and the "non gear" on the shaft.  There are positive detents for the gears to sit in place.





Now on to the gear box itself.  Here we can peer into the abyss.









Next up is where the oil level sits in comparrison to the oil pointer (viewing window).





Here is where the oil is in relation to the spindle seals.  You only see one as they are stacked on top of each other.





Next I undid the drain plug on the underside of the gear box and let the oil drain out.









Sludge, sludge, and more sludge!









Cleaned out!





Should I be concerned about this?





Now on to why we are here in the first place.  Here I have the spindle seals removed.  Have fun with that.  I used a sharp 1/4" chisel to cut the seals and then I pried up a corner until I could grab it with a pair of long nosed needle nosed pliers.









If you go back to the beginning of the post and look at the seals I was sent by Matt, you will notice that there are two disticnct sides.  The cup side goes down.  I say this because that is how it was for the two that I removed.  I put the first one in place and tapped it into place a little bit at a time until it was flush with the casting.  Then I used a 6mm socket screwdriver to fit in the grooves of the spindle and tapped slighlty one groove at a time until it was fully seated.  I then repeated that process with the second seal.





I forgot to take pictures of the two middle gear shafts being put in place but I did take a little video showing it in action with the gear range selector.  First is a picture of the two gear shafts in place.






[video]http://vid1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah152/topsecretsecurity/Mill%20Spindle%20Seal%20Change/1015_video_zps2rcarwhs.mp4[/video]


Time for oil!  This is one of those times that the pictures do not match the story.  Do not fill with oil at this time.  Finish the gear assembly and then replace the drian plug and fill from the top at the fill point.





Two (2) quarts in...





Three (3) quarts in....and enough.





Here is the view from the sight.





Notice the cleaned off box lip.  I cleaned off the cover as well and used a liquid sealant.





Some final notes that you cannot show in pictures.  The gear shafts are quite the press fit.  I had to get everything lined up and then use a dead blow hammer to go around the outer edge of the cover and tap it down into place.  I put all of the screws back in and then went through a modified break in cycle.  I did low gear at the lowest speed for 15 minutes.  I then did it for the fastest speed in the lowest gear for 10 minutes.  I repeated that for the middle gear range.  Finally, I did 5 minutes at the lowest speed in the high range.

I hope this helps.  I also hope that I never have to do this again.  I really think that if I have a slow leak again, I will be OK with that and just keep an eye on the oil level.  If it gets a bit too low I will drain it and then refill.  

One final note.  I used teflon plumbers tape on the oil drain plug and the oil fill plug.

Elliott


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## qualitymachinetools (Nov 30, 2014)

Hey Elliott,
 Excellent post, thank you for that! 

I did one a while back, and if I remember right, the shafts came right out of the top bearings and stayed in the lower part of the gearbox, so didn't have quite the same trouble, but like I said it has been a while, so I don't remember the exact details.

 But that is great and thanks for the information here!


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## darkzero (Nov 30, 2014)

Added to sticky archive.


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## jumps4 (Nov 30, 2014)

good job photographing the project, it will be very handy for reference if I have to replace my seals.
steve


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## mksj (Nov 30, 2014)

Nice job, pretty nasty oil/sludge on the bottom. Some drain plugs have a strong magnet built in (or can be added), so attracts the metallic the filings to a point. With all the sludge and particulates, it is a good reason to change the oil shortly after break in. I also had a lot less foaming and picked up some top end speed, after changing the original gear oil to a high quality synthetic gear oil.


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## yegg (Dec 1, 2014)

mksj said:


> Nice job, pretty nasty oil/sludge on the bottom. Some drain plugs have a strong magnet built in (or can be added), so attracts the metallic the filings to a point. With all the sludge and particulates, it is a good reason to change the oil shortly after break in. I also had a lot less foaming and picked up some top end speed, after changing the original gear oil to a high quality synthetic gear oil.


  Thanks for bringing up the magnets.  I meant to put one in but completely forgot.  I was just so happy that I got the thing back together and it worked.    I had never changed the oil so I was expecting the sludge.  Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.    During the break in I did not notice a lot less foaming in the sight glass.  I also noticed how much quieter the mill is.  Unfortunately I don't know one brand of oil from another.  Matt told me to use 85W90 so that is what I bought at the local automotive parts store.  They only had that one brand so that is what I wound up with.  If anyone has a better brand, please post it with why it is better.  I'd love to know a bit more about that subject; but not enough to write a dissertation.    Elliott


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## darkzero (Dec 1, 2014)

Matt recommended me to use the same oil as I do in my lathe which is Mobil DTE Heavy Medium (ISO 68). Grizzly also recommends ISO 68 for their RF-45 style mills. I'm in Socal & it doesn't get cold here, I may even be fine using ISO 100 in the hot summer days. I buy the Mobil DTE from Enco or my local MSC but any industrial supplier should carry it or the equivelent (basically hydraulic oil).


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## Blackhawk (Dec 2, 2014)

Yegg,

im down the road from you in fredericksburg, was at autozone the other day looking for oil for my mill and did not find any, where parts store did you find that?

lanham


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## yegg (Dec 2, 2014)

Blackhawk said:


> Yegg,
> 
> im down the road from you in fredericksburg, was at autozone the other day looking for oil for my mill and did not find any, where parts store did you find that?
> 
> lanham



I bought it at Fairfax Auto Parts (NAPA) right around the corner from my house.  They had a case on the shelf.  It was 10 and change per quart.

Elliott


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## mksj (Dec 2, 2014)

These are pretty light duty milling machines, but at the end of the day, they may benefit from a mainstream oil designed for this specific application. The most common is the Mobil DTE series circulating oil or their stabilized hydraulic oil. In a mill gearhead, either the Heavy-Medium (ISO 65.1, SAE 20 or gear Oil SAE 80) or Heavy (ISO 95.1, SAE 30 or gear oil SAE 85) are probably the most appropriate. Note that there are different ISO/SAE depending on the application, see chart.  Enco carries these Mobil oils in 1 Gallon containers, when on sale with free UPS shipping, you are looking at $25 per container delivered. I would follow the manufactures recommendation on the ISO grade to use, it may vary somewhat if depending on your climate temperature and speeds you commonly use. 

My BF-30 specifies ISO 100, but with a 3000 RPM top end, you can run into a lot of gear train drag from the oil with the high viscosity. The standard Rong Fu gearhead mills that I have seen use ISO 68 (SAE gear oil of ~80).  I ended up with a synthetic 75-90W gear oil, so starts out a bit thinner, but holds it viscosity a bit better when it gets hot. I use an oil specific to gear drives, not car differentials. I do not know if it presents an issue, but most auto store gear oils are designed for differentials, so they have different additives and properties, especially those used for limited slip. Car engine oils are not recommended as gear oils because of the detergent used.

Lathe headstock and gearbox/carriage apron gearbox may be a bit different, Grizzly and many small-medium lathe manufactures often recommend an ISO ~32 oil for the headstock (DTE24 stabilized hydraulic oil ISO 32, SAE 10; or their DTE Light), and an ISO ~68 for the the gearbox/carriage apron gearbox. Lathes tend to have larger headstock gears then mills, using a higher ISO oil then recommended would cause significantly more frictional drag as the RPM is increased. So Mobil oil DTE24 or DTE light (ISO 32), and DTE26 or DTE heavy/medium (ISO 68). The Shell oil equivalents would be the Tellus 32 and 68 (see cross reference chart).


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## GA Gyro (Dec 2, 2014)

mksj said:


> These are pretty light duty milling machines, but at the end of the day, they may benefit from a mainstream oil designed for this specific application. The most common is the Mobil DTE series circulating oil or their stabilized hydraulic oil. In a mill gearhead, either the Heavy-Medium (ISO 65.1, SAE 20 or gear Oil SAE 80) or Heavy (ISO 95.1, SAE 30 or gear oil SAE 85) are probably the most appropriate. Note that there are different ISO/SAE depending on the application, see chart.  Enco carries these Mobil oils in 1 Gallon containers, when on sale with free UPS shipping, you are looking at $25 per container delivered. I would follow the manufactures recommendation on the ISO grade to use, it may vary somewhat if depending on your climate temperature and speeds you commonly use.
> 
> My BF-30 specifies ISO 100, but with a 3000 RPM top end, you can run into a lot of gear train drag from the oil with the high viscosity. The standard Rong Fu gearhead mills that I have seen use ISO 68 (SAE gear oil of ~80).  I ended up with a synthetic 75-90W gear oil, so starts out a bit thinner, but holds it viscosity a bit better when it gets hot. I use an oil specific to gear drives, not car differentials. I do not know if it presents an issue, but most auto store gear oils are designed for differentials, so they have different additives and properties, especially those used for limited slip. Car engine oils are not recommended as gear oils because of the detergent used.
> 
> Lathe headstock and gearbox/carriage apron gearbox may be a bit different, Grizzly and many small-medium lathe manufactures often recommend an ISO ~32 oil for the headstock (DTE24 stabilized hydraulic oil ISO 32, SAE 10; or their DTE Light), and an ISO ~68 for the the gearbox/carriage apron gearbox. Lathes tend to have larger headstock gears then mills, using a higher ISO oil then recommended would cause significantly more frictional drag as the RPM is increased. So Mobil oil DTE24 or DTE light (ISO 32), and DTE26 or DTE heavy/medium (ISO 68). The Shell oil equivalents would be the Tellus 32 and 68 (see cross reference chart).



THX!  Appreciate the information and charts.

Reading the lower (band comparison) chart... brings up a different question on lubricants for machine tools:

What is the difference between gear oil and way oil?  
I realize one goes in the gearbox, the other is spread on the ways and other surfaces both for lubrication and to protect against rust. 
I am curious as to the different make up of the oil, and lubricating qualities.

THX


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## mksj (Dec 2, 2014)

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The type of oils to be used in mills and lathes is a controversial issue, and a lot of unsupported assumptions have been posted. Given that the manufacturer's recommended oil is readily available and reasonably priced, saving a few $ on an alternative may not be a good alternative in the long run. It is not that another oil with the same ISO or SAE rating won't work, but how long it will work.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/can-i-use-gear-oil-headstock-197400/
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/35196-Alternative-to-way-oil

"Way oil is non-detergent oil with tackifiers added to make the oil cling to the ways, without increasing the viscosity of the oil. The purpose of way oil is to create a hydrostatic bearing surface, where the ways glide on a very thin film of oil. Motor oil does not have these tackifiers, so it just drips off the ways. In fact, you can look at the product development of some of the modern way oils, where the manufacturer has reduces the Peritack (the tackifiers), and the way oil gets runny, doesn't cling as well, and you get a lot more stick slip. This is not theoretical -- I've experienced this first hand, and I ran some experiments comparing the clingyness of the various common way oils on Practical Machinist."

Information posted by Mobil and manufacture's recommendations, both the support use of Mobil DTE "hydraulic oil" or DTE "gear oil" (or equivalent in the chart provided) for geared headstocks in lathes and mills. In general, motor oil and limited slip differential gear oil GL-5 are probably not a good choice for your lathe or mill over the long hall. Limited slip gear and probably manual transmission gear oils are actually less slippery then standard gear oil. Per Red line Oils "75W90 GL-5 gear oil is designed for transmission and trans-axles. It is specifically designed to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad range of temperatures.  It also contains extreme pressure additives but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness. In addition, it has improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life. Appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers (other's synthetic gear oils are often too slippery for proper synchro engagement). Excellent gear and synchro protection, balanced slipperiness for easier shifting in cold climates". Most lubricants for manual gearboxes and differentials are hypoid gear oils. These contain extreme pressure (EP) additives and antiwear additives to cope with the sliding action of hypoid bevel gears. EP additives which contain phosphorous/sulfurous compounds are corrosive to yellow metals such as the copper and/or brass used in bushings and synchronizers; the GL-1 class of gear oils does not contain any EP additives and thus finds use in applications which contain parts made of yellow metals.

Using too high a viscosity oil in a lathe or mill headstock will lead to increased heat, and a quicker demise of the bearings and gears. 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## GA Gyro (Dec 2, 2014)

THX, appreciate the explanation.

Was not thinking to substitute... just curious as to the details.


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