# 2" Banggood Face Mill Issues



## tonydi

I saw some YouTube videos with people using this face mill on a small mill like mine (Seig X2D).   It seemed like it would do what I wanted, which was a faster way to put a nice finish cut on parts, not to hog off a bunch of material.







The first thing I noticed was that the R8 mandrel didn't fit up into the spindle bore as far as any of my other R8 stuff (drill chuck, collets).  It seemed like the key way wasn't cut long enough but I machined it longer without making any difference.

I also noticed that the drawbar would bind at spots on its way to being tight.  I can easily thread the drawbar into the mandrel with my fingers if it's not in the spindle, but once inserted there are 3 or 4 places that require me to put a wrench on the drawbar to advance it a half turn so I can continue to screw it in by hand.  I figured maybe the threads aren't concentric to the mandrel.

All of this would have been something I could live with but when I tried to take a .005" cut on some mild steel the finish was horrible.  It's like the inserts are wiping instead of cutting.  Here's a pic where the left half of the piece was done with the face mill and the right side was a quickie pass with a 4 flute Niagra HSS center cutting end mill.






I tried different speeds, from around 400 RPM up to 800 RPM and feeds from really slow to about what I'd use with the end mill.

I also pulled out two of the inserts but the wiping action didn't change.  I know these little mills don't have the power to take large DOC, but since that was never my intent, I figured it would at least take cuts of .010 or less.  I should note that I also tried it with some 6061 and got the same basic results.

I thought maybe the inserts that the mill came with were just junk but I had also purchased some of these inserts yet they didn't make any better cut than the original inserts.

Any ideas if I can make this thing work or did I just put too much faith in the YouTube reviews and the face mill is just not suited for the little machine?


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## DavidR8

I was just reading reviews and one person said the supplied inserts were “crap”. 
Suggested these instead 









						Drillpro 10pcs APMT1604PDER-PM-GP Carbide Insert Face Mill Cutter Turning Tool Finish Machining Carbide Turning Tools
					

Only US$36.99, buy best Drillpro 10pcs APMT1604PDER-PM-GP Carbide Insert Face Mill Cutter Turning Tool Finish Machining Carbide Turning Tools sale online store at wholesale price.




					www.banggood.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## savarin

I dont trust reviews from any youtube videos.
I often look for recipes and laugh my socks off reading all the raves on tastes etc. I know they are lying.
I have come to the conclusion that people posting reviews are morons, harsh? but that been my experience.


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## Buffalo21

savarin said:


> I dont trust reviews from any youtube videos.
> I often look for recipes and laugh my socks off reading all the raves on tastes etc. I know they are lying.
> I have come to the conclusion that people posting reviews are morons, harsh? but that been my experience.



so your not interested in my recipes for Wombat Stew, Kangaroo Stir Fry or Armadillo Meatloaf??.............


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## tonydi

DavidR8 said:


> I was just reading reviews and one person said the supplied inserts were “crap”.
> Suggested these instead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drillpro 10pcs APMT1604PDER-PM-GP Carbide Insert Face Mill Cutter Turning Tool Finish Machining Carbide Turning Tools
> 
> 
> Only US$36.99, buy best Drillpro 10pcs APMT1604PDER-PM-GP Carbide Insert Face Mill Cutter Turning Tool Finish Machining Carbide Turning Tools sale online store at wholesale price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.banggood.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah, if you look near the end of my post, those are what I changed to and they didn't make any difference.


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## tonydi

Buffalo21 said:


> so your not interested in my recipes for Wombat Stew, Kangaroo Stir Fry or Armadillo Meatloaf??.............


 
Hmmm....if I put some hunks of that stuff in the face mills do you think it would do a better job?


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## Buffalo21

Most of those small face mills are very RPM and DOC sensitive. Changing the RPM, 200-300 rpms (sometimes up or down) can change the appearance incredibly. Insert quality is very important, one bad insert and they cut like crap. I’m not a huge fan of fly cutters, but I have to admit, with a little practice, some amazing finishes can be had.


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## savarin

Hmmm, kangaroo stir fry, yum.
The secret? dont over cook the roo.


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## Jake2465

I would try dialing up that RPM. I assume that you are running that face mill in mild steel? If so, then try 1200 RPM so you can get your SF/M to up 600ish. Then, feed the mill according to what gives the best results. I would do a DOC of something like .005".


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## DavidR8

Whoops sorry I missed that @tonydi 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tonydi

Jake2465 said:


> I would try dialing up that RPM. I assume that you are running that face mill in mild steel? If so, then try 1200 RPM so you can get your SF/M to up 600ish. Then, feed the mill according to what gives the best results. I would do a DOC of something like .005".



That seemed like such a fast speed, considering the size and number of cutters, even more than I use for a regular end mill of much smaller size.  But I'll give it a shot tomorrow and see what happens.



DavidR8 said:


> Whoops sorry I missed that @tonydi



No problem, David.  I get wordy and so I'm used to some of my info getting lost.


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## matthewsx

It seems counter-intuitive but often going at it hard and fast is exactly what's needed. Carbide wants to work hard, that's what it's made for.

John


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## Lo-Fi

Yep, you need to work it hard for the best results. Dial up that rpm and don't be scared to give it a decent DOC and feed. In steel, if the chips are curling off like little bullets and turning blue, that's when I get the best surface finish with my 3" face mill. ~1500rpm, 0.5mm DOC and ~100mm per minute for that tool. Bizarrely, it leaves the parts quite cool with the chips carrying all the heat away! Babying it in speed or feed gives less than great results, but light DOC is OK. 
That being said, I've got an import 25mm insert end mill with cheap APMT inserts and have yet to achieve the same great finish as the 3" with square SPMN Valenite brand inserts.  I'd definitely recommend steering away from import inserts and trying to find some NOS branded ones. I get some bargains on Sandvik and suchlike on ebay, which knocks spots off the cheap import stuff. 

One final thought: put an indicator under it in the spindle and check that all the inserts are running the same height. I wouldn't be surprised if the pockets in the holder aren't true and they've not running the same height, which also has an impact on finish. 

Interested to see how you get on.


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## 38super

Make sure the shell mill is snug to the arbor, found out mine was loose.  Fixed with a couple washers


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## tonydi

38super said:


> Make sure the shell mill is snug to the arbor, found out mine was loose.  Fixed with a couple washers



It is tight although I did add a hardened washer under the SHCS when I first got it just because.

Ok, I cranked the speed up to 1200 RPM today and while the finish is _slightly _better it still is pushing the metal and not cutting it. The red section is a .010" DOC with a feed around 2"/min. The yellow section was from yesterday's slower speed test.







I checked the insert heights and they were all within +/- .0015" of each other.  I don't know if that's good or bad, though.

I then put a block of 6160 and ran it at 900 RPM and while it's also better than yesterday's slower speed run, it's still not much to write home about and it also seems more like it's pushing metal instead of cutting it.  Both pieces had ugly burrs along the edges which was another indication that it's not cutting.






I didn't want to push it any faster because things start falling off of shelves at 1200 RPM.  ;-)


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## macardoso

So you might be also running into an issue where the rigidity and accuracy of the tool and your machine are coming into question. 

First off, your mill is not the most rigid thing in the world (not an insult - mine isn't either) and running a 2" facemill might be flexing the column, head, spindle, etc.).

Second issue is the tool itself. How much runout (TIR) does it have. It is likely you are only cutting on one insert. Same goes for the axial positioning of the inserts. Are they all pretty close to flat or does one stick out further? 

Finally I question how accurately the insert pockets are machined. Are the inserts being held at the correct angle for cutting. This one is very hard if not impossible to measure at home. High end indexable tooling is very expensive and there is a good reason for that.


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## bill70j

tonydi said:


> Any ideas if I can make this thing work or did I just put too much faith in the YouTube reviews and the face mill is just not suited for the little machine?


FWIW, I have that exact same face mill and use those Blue Nano inserts for steel and these inserts for aluminum.  

I get a very nice finish when limiting DOC to 0.010" and using 200SFM for steel and 400SFM for aluminum.

My mill is an old Enco BP clone - so maybe that's the difference.  Also, I wonder if your material is mild steel.  Looks like it might be something harder than 1018?


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## higgite

tonydi,

When you take a .010" DoC, is the work piece actually .010" thinner than before the cut? In steel? In aluminum?
Do you lock the Z-axis when you make a pass with the face mill?

Tom

Edited for clarification... hopefully.


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## bill70j

Tom:

Yes, using this face mill purchased from Bangood, I expect to come within  +/- 0.0005 - or better - of target DoC on mild steel and on aluminum.  That would be for a final, finishing cut.

Bill


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## higgite

bill70j said:


> Tom:
> 
> Yes, using this face mill purchased from Bangood, I expect to come within  +/- 0.0005 - or better - of target DoC on mild steel and on aluminum.  That would be for a final, finishing cut.
> 
> Bill


Bill, I should have been more clear. I was asking the OP in hopes of finding out if his  face mill was actually making the intended DoC or just skimming over the top. You're supposed to magically know what I meant.   I also wonder if he locks down the Z-axis when he makes a pass. I've edited my original post to make things clearer. Thanks.

Tom


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## tonydi

macardoso said:


> First off, your mill is not the most rigid thing in the world (not an insult - mine isn't either) and running a 2" facemill might be flexing the column, head, spindle, etc.).
> 
> Second issue is the tool itself. How much runout (TIR) does it have. It is likely you are only cutting on one insert. Same goes for the axial positioning of the inserts. Are they all pretty close to flat or does one stick out further?
> 
> Finally I question how accurately the insert pockets are machined. Are the inserts being held at the correct angle for cutting. This one is very hard if not impossible to measure at home. High end indexable tooling is very expensive and there is a good reason for that.



     Oh heavens, no offense taken, I'm well aware that these little mills are very limited in many areas, including rigidity.  I got the model with the solid column rather than the one that tilts just to get a little more rigidity. 

      The R8 mandrel has .0015" runout as does the mill head (meaning the head is actually spot on).  I still wonder if that runout is due to how it fits in the spindle.

     Yeah, no way for me to evaluate the pockets or even the angles but axially they are all the same.



bill70j said:


> FWIW, I have that exact same face mill and use those Blue Nano inserts for steel and these inserts for aluminum.
> 
> I get a very nice finish when limiting DOC to 0.010" and using 200SFM for steel and 400SFM for aluminum.
> 
> My mill is an old Enco BP clone - so maybe that's the difference.  Also, I wonder if your material is mild steel.  Looks like it might be something harder than 1018?



      Thanks for the link, Bill.  I got the Blue Nano ones because someone said they were using them with good results on aluminum and that's primarily what I use when I make stuff.  I tested with the steel to evaluate the tool/inserts because it wasn't working well on aluminum.  The inserts you linked to look much different on the cutting edge, more like what I'm used to on my lathe inserts that work great on aluminum so I'm hopeful these will make the tool give the results I had envisioned, like your picture shows.

       Yeah, definitely could be mystery metal but it's the only steel I have.  I've milled it with regular 4 flute HSS endmills and had good results.  In fact, I made a height gauge base for my little surface plate out of the same hunk of steel and it's very smooth and didn't require much hand work to the bottom surface.



higgite said:


> When you take a .010" DoC, is the work piece actually .010" thinner than before the cut? In steel? In aluminum?
> Do you lock the Z-axis when you make a pass with the face mill?
> Edited for clarification... hopefully.



   Good question, Tom.  I touched off on the insert that I measured was the "highest" and sure enough, a .010" DOC resulted in the part being .012" thinner.  That jives with my measurement of the height of one of the other inserts being about .015" lower.

   Lock the Z axis? Shoot, I lock Z, lock Y and even put some pressure on X to limit as much movement there as possible.  I even lock the garage door! ;-)


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## cjtoombs

I got one of these off eBay.  Try a little bluing on the inserts and try a very light cut.  I think you will find that the angles on the milling head are wrong for the inserts and that it is rubbing on the back of the insert, or the insert isn't even hitting the work and the milling head body is.  The body on mine was hitting, so I relieved it, then found there was no clearance angle on the cutters, so the back edge of the cutter was dragging, the cutting edge never touching the work.  I threw mine in a drawer and ordered a few lots of used cutters off eBay and got a good one I could find inserts for.  Also, I looked for inserts in that size that had the proper clearance angles, none available.  Short of grinding clearance on the inserts (you would need a cutter grinder to do it accurately) the milling head was worthless.


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## Jake2465

Ok, it's making more sense now. I did not realize that you are running a tabletop mill. I would suggest that you stay away from inserts as they tend to require a little more power and rigidity. Something like what you are running would do well with a 3/8" end mill for facing and probably something like a 1/4" end mill for regular milling. If you get variable geometry end mills, that will help out. 

Insert cutters will be a lot of trial and error with your machine as you will need to find a mill/cutter match that will not set up an amplified resonance. If you decide that you wish to go for it, then I would stay away from face mills that are larger than 25mm in diameter. 

My mill is a 3200lb Bridgeport CNC and it is not fond of 2" face mills. It has a 2hp spindle and that gets soaked up pretty quick with a face mill of that size. Actually, I have the best success with my 1.5" face mill that uses TPG inserts for aluminum and then I have an APKT insert mill that is 1" in diameter that I use for steels.


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## tonydi

cjtoombs said:


> Try a little bluing on the inserts and try a very light cut.  I think you will find that the angles on the milling head are wrong for the inserts and that it is rubbing on the back of the insert, or the insert isn't even hitting the work and the milling head body is.



Good suggestion.  I blued the bottom of the inserts and head and ran a .005" pass on aluminum.  Here's the result....







I think a lot of the marks are because it's still smearing the metal which builds up on the surface.  But it doesn't seem terribly out of line with what I'd expect to see.  Also, there are no marks on the head so it's not rubbing.

I've ordered some of the aluminum inserts that Bill suggested.  Just looking at the way those are designed makes me think it will do what I need.  Banggood refunded the cost of the face mill because they couldn't get me a R8 mandrel that was made correctly (or maybe it was just easier for them to do it this way) so at this point I figure I'm playing with house money and the $12 for proper inserts is worth a shot.


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## Buffalo21

I had a face mill, that basically had a minimum .020” doc, if you tried anything less than that, all it did was smear the metal, I sold it to a small job shop, they had the same issues. They finally started to use it in heavier cut operations and it works great.


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## macardoso

When I had a Sherline mini-mill (really mini!) I would use a 1" carbide tipped square wood router bit for facing. It gave excellent results in aluminum and worked fine for the limited amount of steel I did at the time. Cutting forces were very low and they are cheap. Not bad for a machine that struggled to push a 1/4" endmill.

On my G0704 I use a 3/4" endmill. I know some do use 2" facemills with moderate success but I know my particular machine just wouldn't like the cut.


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## tonydi

macardoso said:


> When I had a Sherline mini-mill (really mini!) I would use a 1" carbide tipped square wood router bit for facing. It gave excellent results in aluminum and worked fine for the limited amount of steel I did at the time. Cutting forces were very low and they are cheap. Not bad for a machine that struggled to push a 1/4" endmill.



Yeah, I've seen others say wood router bits work pretty well but I've never tried one.  My mill is somewhere in between the Sherline and your Grizzly. Going in I always knew that I'd be limited by the rigidity and horsepower and I was prepared to work around that by not expecting super tight tolerances and accepting that I wouldn't be hogging out a bunch of metal on each pass.  As I said, I was hoping this face mill would get equal finish to using an end mill without having to wear my right arm out cranking the table back and forth so many times.

Guess we'll see in a few weeks!   I'll come back and update with whatever success or failure I run into.

Thank you to everyone who popped in here to offer help and great advice, I really appreciate you all!


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## tonydi

Ok, back to wrap this up!

Got the inserts that Bill suggested.  Turns out they were actual Korloy pieces, something that the eBay listing didn't mention.  So that was a big plus and nice surprise.






Now to the moment of truth......

Plugged the new inserts into the face mill and checked that, yes, one is still slightly closer to the workpiece than the other three.  So that's definitely an issue with the face mill and, as mentioned, probably nothing I can do about it.

I took a .010" DOC pass at around 600 RPM and the finish was great!  I could easily tell it was actually cutting rather than rubbing because I got real chips.  Tried it again at 800 RPM, still great.  I cranked it up to 1400 RPM and manually fed it pretty quickly and here's the finish.






I'll have to play around and find the sweet spot but it really didn't seem to matter.  It cut so effortlessly that I'm sure I can go way more than .010" but that's all I really need.

So as disappointed as I was in this purchase to begin with, I'm completely 180° now.  It's going to be nice to have this weapon in my arsenal.

Once again, thanks to everyone (especially you, Bill!) for their great advice.


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## NCjeeper

So to recap. The original inserts were junk?


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## tonydi

NCjeeper said:


> So to recap. The original inserts were junk?


Welllll, hard to say.  The ones that came in the mill were definitely for steel.  The Blue Nano inserts that I bought because reviewers said they worked fine for aluminum didn't work any better.  And, it could be that the one piece of steel that I had is some sort of alloy that doesn't machine well.

I need to find some steel of known origin to test those inserts with.

These Korloy's are waaaaay different in that the cutting edge is a razor sharp point, not the fairly large radius that the other two have.


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## Winegrower

I had surface finish problems with what looks like the same face mill on my Bridgeport mill.   I sat it on my surface plate, and it rocked.   I was able to loosen and retighten all the inserts, it no longer rocked, and the finish is good now...almost but not quite mirror on aluminum.


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## tonydi

Thanks for the excellent (if still scary) suggestion.  I very carefully placed the mill on my plate and found one insert that I could slide a .002" shim under.  That stopped the rocking.  I first loosened all of the inserts and tightened them back up as it sat on the plate but that didn't help.  So I loosened just the one insert and I was able to tighten it so that it only takes a .001" shim.  So it's better (50% better!) but I think that's all there is.  Given all of the other specs that are wrong with the R8 portion and the accuracy of my little mill, I think I'll be more than fine.


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## addertooth

Rolling back to your picture of the Blued Carbide Inserts, the edge was certainly unfavorably radiused which encouraged more wiping than cutting when the depth of cut is small.  If I were in you position, and had lacked your patience, those carbide edges and a diamond wheel would have had a serious date to change their profile (especially if they were slated to cut Aluminum).


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## T Bredehoft

I bought one of those cheap 2" face mills several months ago, used some used inserts I had salvaged from a previous employer, shimmed all four inserts so they were within .0003 or so in x and y, (lots of tweaking) and it cuts like a Sandvic Cormorant. Really nice finish in steel and aluminum. Thanks to 500 hrs of "tool setting" during my apprenticeship.


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## martik777

I got a similar 2" one here:








						4 Flute 400R-50mm-22 Face End Mill End Mill Facing CNC Milling Cutter
					

Only US$20.99, buy best 4 Flute 400R-50mm-22 Face End Mill Endmill Facing CNC Milling Cutter sale online store at wholesale price.




					www.banggood.com
				




Made my own arbor and got the cheap inserts off ebay.
Finish was great, even on stainless


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## addertooth

martik777 said:


> I got a similar 2" one here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 Flute 400R-50mm-22 Face End Mill End Mill Facing CNC Milling Cutter
> 
> 
> Only US$20.99, buy best 4 Flute 400R-50mm-22 Face End Mill Endmill Facing CNC Milling Cutter sale online store at wholesale price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.banggood.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made my own arbor and got the cheap inserts off ebay.
> Finish was great, even on stainless



But the question would be... What is your mill?


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## martik777

Good old RF30


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## tonydi

addertooth said:


> Rolling back to your picture of the Blued Carbide Inserts, the edge was certainly unfavorably radiused which encouraged more wiping than cutting when the depth of cut is small.  If I were in you position, and had lacked your patience, those carbide edges and a diamond wheel would have had a serious date to change their profile (especially if they were slated to cut Aluminum).


Well, I don't have a diamond wheel and the cost would probably be more than the aluminum inserts so for me that was a non-starter.  But even so, I could easily see myself ending up with more unevenness if I got my hands on a wheel and started trying to re-profile the blue inserts.


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## mikey

Tony, you might consider a Sherline single insert fly cutter with a straight shank. It is essentially a little (1-1/8" cutting diameter) single insert face mill intended for low horsepower, low rigidity milling machines and it works extremely well in most materials a hobby guy is likely to encounter. It produces a near mirror finish in aluminum and produces an almost iridescent finish in most steels when the speed is right. I've used one for decades and while it has a limited cutting diameter, it can also cut to a shoulder so it is very useful. I also use this thing on my RF-30 and it works just as well on that mill.

Like most inserted carbide tools, this one likes speed. I run at 2800 rpm with aluminum and it finishes better than any end mill or other fly cutter that I have used, including HSS. Might want to take a look at it.


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## Alcap

I bought one of those 2"  face/end mills for my Clausing 8520 for those times when I have to machine steel or cast iron to get under the scale or metal that might be too hard for my HSS end mills . Even if used just to rough then finish with a HHS end mill or flycutter I  dulled a few HSS and figured I didn't want to chance dulling a good USA end mill unless that would be the only alternative .


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## macardoso

Just FYI, the import market (eBay and especially AliExpress) are filled with counterfeit inserts from brand names. I have 15 boxes of VCGT, CCGT, SCGT, CCMT, and a few other inserts that say Korloy on them. Most I paid $5 for. I have a few very convincing unopened boxes that say Sandvik and Widia on them, again I paid $5-10.

Honestly they all work great for what I do but they are definitely not genuine. There was a post on here a while back that compared brand name to import inserts at 100x magnification. The imposter inserts had very poor edge condition (chipping at the microscopic level) and the corner radius was blocky looking - not a smooth radius.

The xxGT and xxGX style of inserts are polished and ground to a sharp edge for aluminum. They work very well for me. Glad you're getting the results you were hoping for.


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## Larry$

I wonder how many of those inserts are on the same plane? There is a repeating pattern of close together scratches then smoother. Something loose?


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