# PVC shortage



## hman (Jun 13, 2021)

This isn't directly machining related, but might be of interest to some.  I was at Home Depot yesterday, looking for PVC pipe fittings.  A distressing number of spaces on the shelf were labeled "Out."  The guy out on the floor had no idea why there was a supply chain problem.  I was in a Lowes today - same problem with PVC stock.  But there I heard what seems a plausible explanation.  There was a fire recently in a Louisiana chlorine plant.  Chlorine is one of the raw materials needed to manufacture PVC.  So stocks are running short.

Bottom line - there will probably be a lengthy shortage of PVC plumbing fittings (and other PVC stuff).  I'm sure the Louisiana plant wasn't the only source of chlorine, but was probably a major player.  So it'll take a while for production to come back up to speed.


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## Eddyde (Jun 13, 2021)

Thanks for the info!
Pushing TIG-rod, storage silo project to the back burner....


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## Dhal22 (Jun 13, 2021)

For a plumber this is important news. Not that I buy plumbing materials from home depot.   Ill check with my vendors. Thanks


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## Nutfarmer (Jun 14, 2021)

The cost of every thing is going crazy. If anyone believes the numbers on inflation I have some  swap land to sell you.


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## Braeden P (Jun 14, 2021)

I have 4 feet of 3/4 PVC a can of gas and a 2 by 4 wood how about trade for a mill?


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## bill70j (Jun 14, 2021)

hman said:


> Bottom line - there will probably be a lengthy shortage of PVC plumbing fittings (and other PVC stuff).  I'm sure the Louisiana plant wasn't the only source of chlorine, but was probably a major player.  So it'll take a while for production to come back up to speed.


 Interesting.

Just read about a furniture maker having trouble finding colored polyethylene  to make Adriondack chairs.  Shortage traced to wither storms in Texas which "disrupted production of many such petroleum-derived products".

I wonder how we're going to buy our Adirondack chairs 30 years from now when we're completely weened off oil and natural gas.


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## JimDawson (Jun 14, 2021)

It's not just PVC that seems to be in short supply. Metals seem to be an issue also.  We buy about 5000 lbs of stainless and aluminum per month or at least we were.  In the last few months the supply has started drying up, we went from local stock, to west coast stock, to no stock anywhere.  We are now being quoted September delivery (maybe) at some indeterminant cost, but at least a 300% price increase.  We're working on finding another source(s).  A couple of my customers are also small manufactures and they are having the same problems.  None of our materials are coming from offshore sources, it is all domestic mills and vendors.

The crazy thing is that our sales are good, as are the sales of the two customers that I mentioned above.  But all we can do is fill the backorders right now, we can't guarantee delivery of any current sales.


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## MikeInOr (Jun 14, 2021)

PVC fittings at Lowes and HD have been sparse for well over a year (I have been installing a large aquarium and plumbing it into my household plumbing).

I have been purchasing all of my PVC fittings from:  https://www.supplyhouse.com/

The fittings are considerably cheaper but they do charge shipping so you come out far ahead on large orders but on smaller orders... well at least they have had everything in stock and get it to me in well under a week.  They also carry much higher quality fittings as well as the cheap junk the big box guys sell... specifically PVC bulkhead fittings are what I am referring to.


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## MikeInOr (Jun 14, 2021)

Braeden P said:


> I have 4 feet of 3/4 PVC a can of gas and a 2 by 4 wood how about trade for a mill?



Hmmm... is the 2x4 straight or is it warped?


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## jmkasunich (Jun 14, 2021)

bill70j said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Just read about a furniture maker having trouble finding colored polyethylene  to make Adriondack chairs.  Shortage traced to wither storms in Texas which "disrupted production of many such petroleum-derived products".
> 
> I wonder how we're going to buy our Adirondack chairs 30 years from now when we're completely weened off oil and natural gas.


Well, if we stop burning the stuff for fuel it will be available as a chemical feedstock for much longer.  Nothing wrong with using oil and natural gas to make plastic.  Burning it is the problem.


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## MikeInOr (Jun 14, 2021)

bill70j said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Just read about a furniture maker having trouble finding colored polyethylene  to make Adirondack chairs.  Shortage traced to wither storms in Texas which "disrupted production of many such petroleum-derived products".
> 
> I wonder how we're going to buy our Adirondack chairs 30 years from now when we're completely weened off oil and natural gas.



Someone should invent a wooden Adirondack chair!


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## markba633csi (Jun 14, 2021)

I think we make too much plastic, particularly single-use.  The ocean is loaded with it, as are bird's stomachs
-M


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## mmcmdl (Jun 15, 2021)

When I worked for Unilever , all our scrap detergent bottles were donated to the National Park system and made into plastic picnic tables etc . If you ever check out Old Faithful , you'll be sitting on our tables .


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## Superburban (Jun 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> When I worked for Unilever , all our scrap detergent were donated to the National Park system and made into plastic picnic tables etc . If you ever check out Old Faithful , you'll be sitting on our tables .


Detergent, or the bottles? With how they pumped out the product, I'm surprised there was anything not packaged and shipped.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 15, 2021)

Superburban said:


> Detergent, or the bottles? With how they pumped out the product, I'm surprised there was anything not packaged and shipped.


Thanks for picking that up , and I did edit it . All bottles were recycled into the National Park System . We received yearly calendars with pics of the parks . There just seems like these little company perks exist any longer , no parties , no softball teams , no United Way days etc . No comradity .


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## Superburban (Jun 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Thanks for picking that up , and I did edit it . All bottles were recycled into the National Park System . We received yearly calendars with pics of the parks . *There just seems like these little company perks exist any longer , no parties , no softball teams , no United Way days etc . No comradity .*


Boy that is for sure. After I left the military, I started with a big trucking company. A year or so later. the owner/ founder retired, and numbers folks took over. Within a few years, it was not the same. turnover had gone crazy, and workers were afraid to talk to anyone. Christmas, spring, fall, parties/ picnics were gone, bonuses were ended, ect. I moved on to a smaller company, almost the same. The owner retired, and all the good things slowly went away. So I moved on to a third, when the economy slowed down in 2008, they laid off the newest hired. With my fathers healt failing fast, it was a good time to pack up and move to Colorado, and quit the rat race.


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## Ischgl99 (Jun 15, 2021)

Back in February when I was looking for parts to wire my lathe, the electrical section was fairly bare of anything made of plastic.  They blamed a resin shortage for that.

The local Dodge dealer in my business group is only getting one key per car now due to the semiconductor shortage, for the few cars they are getting, and another dealer said this morning they expect to be out of cars to sell by August at the current delivery rate.


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## brino (Jun 16, 2021)

My day job is at a communications company.
We absolutely see huge issues with semiconductor and passive component (resistor, capacitor, etc.) supply; orders being delayed and quantitites limited.
Apparently the plastic resin used in components like fans, etc. is in very short supply and it's being blamed on the frozen pipes in Texas shutting down so many petrol-chemical processing plants.
-brino


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## Janderso (Jun 16, 2021)

I have some bullets 
I'm rich!


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## Shotgun (Jun 16, 2021)

brino said:


> being blamed on the frozen pipes in Texas shutting down so many petrol-chemical processing plants.
> -brino



That has got to be the lamest excuse I've heard, yet.  It was cold for a few days.  I could see that causing some pressure on the market, but not to the point of store shelves being cleaned out, along with the metal, wood, and semiconductor shelves.

There is something amiss.


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## FOMOGO (Jun 16, 2021)

Why sell a lot for a little, when you can sell a little for a lot? My wife was comparing the cost of avocado's that I got in Feb. to the same product we bought today at the same place (Cost Co) $ 2.99 in Feb, $6.99 today. When you have a few huge corporations controlling large sections of the economy, this is what you get. Seems anti-trust laws, or at least there application is a thing of the past. I don't really care what the supreme court says, corporations are not people. Rant over. Mike


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## NCjeeper (Jun 17, 2021)

Ischgl99 said:


> The local Dodge dealer in my business group is only getting one key per car now due to the semiconductor shortage,


Seems like a good time to go back to normal metal keys like the good old days.


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## brino (Jun 17, 2021)

brino said:


> it's being blamed on the frozen pipes in Texas shutting down so many petrol-chemical processing plants.
> -brino





Shotgun said:


> That has got to be the lamest excuse I've heard, yet. It was cold for a few days. I could see that causing some pressure on the market, but now to the point of store shelves being cleaned out, along with the metal, wood, and semiconductor shelves.
> 
> There is something amiss.



It sure sounded suspect to me.......I would sooner believe it's due to physical distancing rules between employees at those plants cutting production for a sustained period.

We only have ~12% of the workforce actually coming to the building now. 
During the worst of the pandemic it was realized that all the software guys, and many more in purchasing, marketing, etc., can work 100% remotely.
Only the hardware types that need to actually handle cards and solder things are on site.
It sure makes parking here easy!

-brino


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## bill70j (Jun 17, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> Seems anti-trust laws, or at least there application is a thing of the past. I don't really care what the supreme court says, corporations are not people. Rant over. Mike


I agree 100%

There was a time when the FTC closely scrutinized proposed mergers and acquisitions using the HHI, which is a simple procedure quantifying effects of monopolies on market competitiveness.  But seems anything goes these days.

Fortunately, the proposed new FTC chairman has a history which suggests she'll be critical of all of this.


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## Janderso (Jun 17, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> Why sell a lot for a little, when you can sell a little for a lot? My wife was comparing the cost of avocado's that I got in Feb. to the same product we bought today at the same place (Cost Co) $ 2.99 in Feb, $6.99 today. When you have a few huge corporations controlling large sections of the economy, this is what you get. Seems anti-trust laws, or at least there application is a thing of the past. I don't really care what the supreme court says, corporations are not people. Rant over. Mike


We need Teddy Roosevelt and Howard Taft to sue the monopolies.
I believe it was the, Sherman Act.


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## Shotgun (Jun 17, 2021)

bill70j said:


> Fortunately, the proposed new FTC chairman has a history which suggests she'll be critical of all of this.



I'll believe it when I see it.  Usually, the moves by these bureaucrats always turn out to be measures to look like they're doing something positive, while allowing the corruption to grow in the dark.

Meanwhile, I broke my Chinesium vice a couple nights ago, but was able to pick up a new one on eBay for $115 shipped.  A new vice for less than 20 avocados.  You can't make this stuff up.


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## bill70j (Jun 17, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> I'll believe it when I see it.  Usually, the moves by these bureaucrats always turn out to be measures to look like they're doing something positive, while allowing the corruption to grow in the dark.


I have first hand knowledge of the FTC's process for reviewing and deciding on mergers and acquisitions (from the company side).

I am not in favor of huge bureaucratic institutions.

But I can say that a well run FTC is effective in blocking non-competitive moves on the part of corporations.


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## sdelivery (Jun 17, 2021)

MikeInOr said:


> Hmmm... is the 2x4 straight or is it warped?


Throw in half a sheet of 1/2 CDX and you got a deal!


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## brino (Jun 17, 2021)

Here's an interesting video on the subject:


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## matthewsx (Jun 17, 2021)

JIT and Lean


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## JimDawson (Jun 17, 2021)

The video above is a really good description of what is happening.  We are experiencing the same kinds of shortages for our products.  We tried to keep no more than a 30 day inventory of raw materials and finished products.  This has worked well for the last couple years.  Our sales have ramped up over that time and we ordered ahead for anticipated sales (this is done with our magic crystal ball  ).  Normal delivery on raw materials was 1 to 2 weeks, and we kept our vendors in the loop so they could have stock available when we needed it.

Then in the last month or so the entire system broke down, no raw materials in the pipeline, with delivery times measured in months rather than weeks.  Our machines have been shut down for the last couple of weeks waiting for materials.  We have orders and near finished assemblies, but are waiting on specific components to be able to ship.

Fortunately my son was able to scrounge enough raw material yesterday to get the lathe running again, but had to pay a premium price for it.  At least we will be able to fill the backorders and build some finished assemblies ahead for about 100 units.  Right now it's looking like we may not be able to get more raw materials until September, and we won't have enough inventory to fill orders until then.  This is not just affecting us, other local manufactures are having the same problem.

This is also going to trickle down to some of our other vendors, our powder coat and anodizing vendors are going to impacted because we won't be sending parts to them.  Our parts are not going to make or break our finishing vendors, but multiply this by several small manufactures and it could have a serious impact.

We have enough raw material on hand right now to keep the machines running for a couple of weeks, but we may just take the rest of the summer off.


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## matthewsx (Jun 17, 2021)

JimDawson said:


> The video above is a really good description of what is happening.  We are experiencing the same kinds of shortages for our products.  We tried to keep no more than a 30 day inventory of raw materials and finished products.  This has worked well for the last couple years.  Our sales have ramped up over that time and we ordered ahead for anticipated sales (this is done with our magic crystal ball  ).  Normal delivery on raw materials was 1 to 2 weeks, and we kept our vendors in the loop so they could have stock available when we needed it.
> 
> Then in the last month or so the entire system broke down, no raw materials in the pipeline, with delivery times measured in months rather than weeks.  Our machines have been shut down for the last couple of weeks waiting for materials.  We have orders and near finished assemblies, but are waiting on specific components to be able to ship.
> 
> ...



Well, you have earned a vacation....

In all seriousness there are lots and lots of small manufacturers in the US who are probably in the same position you are. This past year and a half definitely warrants some consideration of bringing supply chains back into this country and dealing with some increased costs. I'm pleased to at least be hearing policy makers considering how this could be accomplished.

John


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