# Tooling Sources--Recommendations to Buy and Avoid?



## ACHiPo (Mar 15, 2017)

The Harbor Freight pass/fail thread has been interesting--I've got a 44" tool chest and 4x6 band saw on order as a result--so I'm wondering about others' experience with import tooling sources.  What is recommended from Shars, Grizzly, etc.?  What should be avoided?  What should only be purchased from US/Europe sources (Starrett, Brown and Sharpe?)

Specifically I want to pick up some 1-2-3 and 2-4-6 blocks, sine bar, and other set up and measurement tools, as well as a ball-bearing center (avoiding the term "live" ).  Shars stuff seems interesting, but I haven't purchased from them before.  Not sure how they compare to Grizzly, Jet, or other importers?


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## chips&more (Mar 15, 2017)

In today’s world, it’s hard to avoid buying import. Even some of the familiar USA names farm out to be made overseas!!! If you have the time, I would patiently surf around fleabay and look for the secondhand good old USA made stuff….Dave.


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## intjonmiller (Mar 15, 2017)

I have not been disappointed by anything from Shars. I can't imagine you would be disappointed with Shars for those items. My experience with Grizzly is limited to woodworking machines in other people's shops, but has also been consistently favorable.


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## BGHansen (Mar 15, 2017)

I have a co-ax indicator and thread pitch micrometers from Shars with no issues.  I have digital (tumbler style) mic's from Grizzly, no issues.  Have some Harbor Freight digital calipers that seem to be OK, but prefer my SPI 6" with about 3/4" tall numbers.  Sine bar from ENCO is OK.  Lots of parallels and tool holders from CDCO, no issues.  My mic's are from various sources including B&S, Mitutoyo, Starrett and no name import.  For what I fumble around with I've never had any issues with the import stuff.

Bruce


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## Dave Paine (Mar 15, 2017)

My used Grizzly lathe has a Shars 6in self centering chuck.  I am happy with this chuck.   The seller often comments he really misses that chuck.  His new lathe has different spindle so he had to let it go when he sold the lathe to me.

Since getting the lathe I have purchased a number of items from Shars.  Most recently a milling vise.  I have been happy with all the items I have purchased.

CDCO is often less expensive.  Perhaps not the same quality as Shars.  Can be difficult to tell.

I purchased a number of items from Grizzly until they closed the PA store.  I valued being able to visit the showroom and see the items before purchasing.  Now the showroom is closed, other sources are less expensive than Grizzly.  I have normally been happy with the items purchased from Grizzly.  Any source can have some items which are not so good.  The one item I am disappointed with from Grizzly is a dial protractor.  I do not know who made this.  The hook lock on the protractor does not engage well so can slip.  May be bad design or bad manufacture or both.  I need to make a replacement part - one day......

I purchased a lot of items from ENCO until MSC closed them down.  I find MSC prices high and there "Up to x off" sales confusing.  The site software resets the price to some catalog price, which is higher than my shown price, then discounts  - if the item is relevant to the mystery sale discount.

I have also purchased from Victor Machinery.  I have been happy with the items.


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## woodtickgreg (Mar 15, 2017)

I have not been disappointed with anything I have gotten from Shars.
For a hobbiest the stuff is fine. Probably will order a quick change axa wedge type tool post from them for my southbend lathe. I have a 6" 3 jaw scroll chuck from them on my south bend lathe and I'm happy with it. My mics are a mix of starret and mitutoyo. But i think i have a plunger type indicator from them.


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## mikey (Mar 15, 2017)

You are going to find that in just about every category of tool or equipment, there will be one make or model that is the standard. You may not need that standard or want to spend the money but it is always good to know what it is. 

In our hobby, you can only cut as well as you can measure and the best source of information I know of for measuring tools is http://longislandindicator.com/. Here, you will find information that will allow you to make an informed decision. eBay is probably the best place to buy these tools/instruments but Amazon can sometimes beat the cost of new eBay tools. Many hobby guys seem to think that because they're just hobby guys and not pros, a cheaper tool is fine and there is nothing wrong with that. However, precision is precision and where measuring tools are concerned it pays to buy good stuff  and buy it only once.

There will always be a standard tool or brand to know about or compare to. For keyless drill chucks, Albrecht is it. For an affordable boring head it is Criterion. For the best 6" dial caliper, look for a Tesa. For the best DTI, look for Swiss-made tools. There is a really good "something" for everything we use; you just have to search for it. If you are patient, you can find this "best" tool on eBay, often for less than the Chinese counterpart. 

I'm not saying you have to buy the best or that you shouldn't buy Chinese. Your standards, needs and budget will decide that but it is good to know what's out there.


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## Doubleeboy (Mar 15, 2017)

The trouble in my view with the import stuff and also USA made items that are (no name) in tool catalog is that the actual manufacturer can switch and you have no way of knowing.  I have bought USA made drills sold by Enco, some were great others were so so.  That said I have bought toolholders from CDCO several times over last 15 years and they were all fine, except for the crappy chinese set screws.  Grizzly can be okay, but they drop tools left and right and do not stand by products that are no longer in catalog, also if your lightly used tool breaks one day after warranty expires, tough luck, ask me how I know.  Its a gamble on ebay, I take that into account on my bids.  I have been on ebay for 20 years, only been cheated once, several times less than satisfied, not bad out of hundreds of purchases.  I agree with Mikey, if it is not swiss made I will not buy it for dial test indicator, for the reason they are fixable, take a beating with no issues, Starrett and Mit, not so much, China for get it, drop it and its history.  Dial calipers the Chinese ones are fine for down and dirty use, The Swiss made ones come out for the real work.  Suprisingly Chinese mics seem to be very accurate, problem is they are not really serviceable and have rather squishy feeling threads when closing but for the price they are great way to get started.

I recently bought a DRO from PM that is Chinese, its new and seen little use, but I have it repeating to .0001" over length of travel, not bad for 400 bucks, now will it do that 20 years from now, who knows, but if it does it for half that time I will be happy with purchase.  I love my 14 year old Newall DRO but they are now stupid expensive so I went cheap on new lathe.  Other folks have sang his praises here many times before, so I will keep it to a minimum, but Matt is great and Precision Matthews/ Quality Machine is an asset to Hobby machinist in USA.

michael


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## Rustrp (Mar 15, 2017)

I look at my purchases the same as I look at my job. I don't send out bulletins requesting someone come apply for my position so why would I do it to someone else. I'm fully aware of the exodus of manufacturing here in the US and I'm also aware of why. The machine tool and equipment manufacturing industries took a big hit in the process.  

I buy tools and when I am left with only an import choice I try to make the decisions based on warranty. Which corporation I give my money to is important also. If both tools are made in China, do I give Makita who has a 3 year warranty and UL label my money or DeWalt who's maxed out at 1 year and no UL label the money. Warranty and customer service rank high because it says a lot about what is being produced and the ethics that go into the manufacturing process. It's difficult to embrace a manufacturer who produces a precision tool (category) that isn't precision. The same goes for a corporation that allows the manufacturer to set the quality control standards. 

My metal work isn't a hobby for me so time is money. I must factor in cost of goods sold, so I know if I choose to spend an extra $1 on a drill bit it's based on the money coming back to me.


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## aliva (Mar 15, 2017)

I avoid buying from the US as the currency exchange rate and shipping is the killer. I have bought from Shars in the past with no issues in the level of quality for the price.  I've bought from  Accusize Industrial Tools , in Toronto, same  or better quality as Shars , but at a Canadian price , and much cheaper shipping.


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## Rustrp (Mar 15, 2017)

aliva said:


> I avoid buying from the US as the currency exchange rate and shipping is the killer. I have bought from Shars in the past with no issues in the level of quality for the price.  I've bought from  Accusize Industrial Tools , in Toronto, same  or better quality as Shars , but at a Canadian price , and much cheaper shipping.



Yeah, the exchange rate can bite at times. The shipping costs are high because they have to go so far before they find someone.  That's a bit of Northwest Territory experience.


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## ACHiPo (Mar 16, 2017)

Lot's of good inputs.  Thanks!  I've done quite well buying top-shelf measurement tools from a retired machinist, but there are a few things he didn't have (e.g. coaxial DTG) that I'll look for top-shelf used.  Other things like Jo-blocks I'm thinking import is probably fine.

Thanks again, and keep the experience and opinions coming!


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## ACHiPo (Mar 16, 2017)

mikey said:


> You are going to find that in just about every category of tool or equipment, there will be one make or model that is the standard. You may not need that standard or want to spend the money but it is always good to know what it is.
> 
> In our hobby, you can only cut as well as you can measure and the best source of information I know of for measuring tools is http://longislandindicator.com/. Here, you will find information that will allow you to make an informed decision.



Great info!  Thanks again Mike!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EmilioG (Mar 16, 2017)

I'm a serious hobbyist but also a working professional., so I buy good tools.  Even fasteners, I buy Holokrome USA and others.
I just like working with well made, quality tools.  I have gotten some really great deals, watching and waiting, for about the same price
of some new, cheaper import tools.  Some, I just don't need, like a Tesa height gage, beautiful, but I'm fine with my Mitutoyo 6" dial HG.
Still a quality tool.  And so it goes.  Like Mikey wrote, "it's good to know what the gold standard is, then go from there. Make an informed choice.
I also ask my friends what they like and use. That's how I chose Etalon for micrometers. A great example. You can buy good used Etalons that are
much better than many new big names new.


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## Rustrp (Mar 17, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> I'm a serious hobbyist but also a working professional., so I buy good tools.  Even fasteners, I buy Holokrome USA and others.
> I just like working with well made, quality tools.  I have gotten some really great deals, watching and waiting, for about the same price
> of some new, cheaper import tools.  Some, I just don't need, like a Tesa height gage, beautiful, but I'm fine with my Mitutoyo 6" dial HG.
> Still a quality tool.  And so it goes.  Like Mikey wrote, "it's good to know what the gold standard is, then go from there. Make an informed choice.
> ...



Thank you! When I read a topic on how much machinists earn, the responses are nauseating. Why? Because this is a trade, a vocation, a profession to be proud of. The main reason for the drop in salary is due to the dilution of the trade, by **that's close enough, or that's good enough thinking** along with the resulting product produced. Unfortunately, most of those who go along with the trend don't realize that many of the decisions made are by folks who have never walked into a machine shop, never had cutting fluid under their fingernails.

If I purchase less than quality measuring tools, how do I know how accurate the product being produced really is. It seems logical that a class being taught on information technology wouldn't use 15 year old textbooks, so why do we do the same to ourselves, out trade(s)._ The twist in my analogy is that the 80 year old Machinists Handbook my father-in-law gave me is still accurate.   
_
My comments are not a personal attack on anyone choosing to take a different path but I don't understand the mentality that goes with the purchase of a $30 HF item and then it's proceeded with a topic asking why it doesn't perform to the standard of the $300 item.


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## mikey (Mar 17, 2017)

Rustrp said:


> Thank you! When I read a topic on how much machinists earn, the responses are nauseating. Why? Because this is a trade, a vocation, a profession to be proud of. The main reason for the drop in salary is due to the dilution of the trade, by **that's close enough, or that's good enough thinking** along with the resulting product produced. Unfortunately, most of those who go along with the trend don't realize that many of the decisions made are by folks who have never walked into a machine shop, never had cutting fluid under their fingernails.
> 
> If I purchase less than quality measuring tools, how do I know how accurate the product being produced really is. It seems logical that a class being taught on information technology wouldn't use 15 year old textbooks, so why do we do the same to ourselves, out trade(s)._ The twist in my analogy is that the 80 year old Machinists Handbook my father-in-law gave me is still accurate.
> _
> My comments are not a personal attack on anyone choosing to take a different path but I don't understand the mentality that goes with the purchase of a $30 HF item and then it's proceeded with a topic asking why it doesn't perform to the standard of the $300 item.



Rustrp, your Integrity is showing. I'm only a hobby guy but you just earned my respect.


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## Rustrp (Mar 18, 2017)

mikey said:


> Rustrp, your Integrity is showing. I'm only a hobby guy but you just earned my respect.


Thanks mikey. I present my comments from a position that might provoke thoughts in the actions we take daily. Machining, especially when it comes to manufacturing plays a part in all our lives, yet we make choices thinking we go untouched. I fabricate sheetmetal and welded metal product with very little maching done, but the quality tools I have used through the years have changed dramatically with a downward spiral. My father-in-law and his Dad were machinists for their entire working careers. What they did daily as a vocation is now looked upon as an art based on the craftsmanship and/or the lack of availability in the market. I feel fortunate to have been taught by those who held the bar really high when it comes to quality. The tools they owned were tools owned since beginning their trade. They had the tools because they were well made and they used them in a similar manner, never abused. I always got the sense that when they told me what to buy for my toolbox it wasn't based on my choice, when the reality was I was choosing based on what they had instilled. 

For me it's disheartening to think we have come so far from the invention of the wheel,  too having the technology to build an International Space Station yet be willing in some areas to walk the path backwards toward the wheel, which was an era of humans striving to do things better.


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## mikey (Mar 18, 2017)

Rustrp said:


> Thanks mikey. I present my comments from a position that might provoke thoughts in the actions we take daily. Machining, especially when it comes to manufacturing plays a part in all our lives, yet we make choices thinking we go untouched. I fabricate sheetmetal and welded metal product with very little maching done, but the quality tools I have used through the years have changed dramatically with a downward spiral. My father-in-law and his Dad were machinists for their entire working careers. What they did daily as a vocation is now looked upon as an art based on the craftsmanship and/or the lack of availability in the market. I feel fortunate to have been taught by those who held the bar really high when it comes to quality. The tools they owned were tools owned since beginning their trade. They had the tools because they were well made and they used them in a similar manner, never abused. I always got the sense that when they told me what to buy for my toolbox it wasn't based on my choice, when the reality was I was choosing based on what they had instilled.
> 
> For me it's disheartening to think we have come so far from the invention of the wheel,  too having the technology to build an International Space Station yet be willing in some areas to walk the path backwards toward the wheel, which was an era of humans striving to do things better.



I understand your perspective and where you're coming from. Moreover, I agree with you. From a hobbyist standpoint, however, I also appreciate that the plethora of import machines and tools have opened up the hobby machining world to many who would otherwise not be engaged. Luckily, I enjoy and am able to afford good tools so I get to choose. This is not the case for all of us.


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