# Rockwell Vs. Index Vertical mill



## timpet98 (May 11, 2020)

I've found a couple of mills that I'm looking at and was just looking for some opinions or information, pros/cons stuff like that. I'm looking at a Index model 40 and a Rockwell vertical mill. List prices are the same, both need different motors but not a big deal. What would you go with and why?


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## hwelecrepair (May 11, 2020)

I dont have any experience with these, but the Index looks like a more rigid machine, even going off of the round ram of the rockwell vs the ram on the Index.  

However, I personally would want to know more about the actual condition of the machines (ways, slop, etc) 

Jon


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## Martin W (May 11, 2020)

Wells Index is still in business. What taper do they have? My Model 40 had a B&S # 9 taper. Hard to find tooling. Wells Index will re-grind it to a R8 for a bunch of green backs. I don't know anything about Rockwell, other thanThey used to make great power tools.
I don't think either one has X or Y power feed? I was happy with my Wells Index but it was old and worn.
Not much help, I know Lol
Cheers
Martin


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## machPete99 (May 11, 2020)

I have the Rockwell, its a nice small mill which takes R8 collets. The one in your picture looks like it has the bigger motor (1HP?), also looks like someone modified the x axis to mount a power feed. Make sure the motor works as it has a non standard long shaft. I upgraded my motor to 1HP 6 pole (from 3/4HP 4 pole), needed to machine the shaft down from a larger extended size. Either machine probably needs VFD conversion if not already done.


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## projectnut (May 11, 2020)

As mentioned earlier Wells Index is still in business, and still supports many of their older machines.  If the machine you're looking at is labeled "Index" rather than "Wells Index" it was built between 1938 and 1974.  The Wells company bought out the Index company in 1974 and changed the product name to "Wells Index".

Personally I have never used either an Index or Wells Index machine.  However when I was looking to buy a mill for my shop 20+ years ago I consulted a number of machinists I worked with.  Both the Index and Wells Index machines were recommended by those that had used them.  They are a bit heavier and more rigid than a Bridgeport and seem to hold up well in production shops.

As for the Rockwell the one in the pictures does look as though it has been modified by the previous owner.  I tend to shy away from those types of machines in that you never know what has been modified, and you could run into expensive repairs trying to return it to it's original state.

When you state "both need different motors" I would ask why?  Are they damaged, burnt out, modified, or in any other way compromised?  If they are damaged or burnt out I would think it's indicative of how the entire machine has been treated.  If you're just looking to change out the motor for a more powerful or single phase unit be aware that they are special to the machine and a replacement may be expensive or difficult to find.

As an FYI I do have an Index 12" rotary table.  Given the name tag I know it's at least 46 years old.  It's in excellent shape, and I use it on a regular basis.  If the Index mill has been treated well over the years I would expect it has many more years of life left in it.  Keep in mind however Index and Wells Index machines are not nearly as popular as Bridgeports.  Consequently parts are less abundant and more expensive.


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## theperfessor (May 11, 2020)

I used to work at a University that had a Rockwell vertical and horizontal mill. When I retired I bought both of them at auction and then sold the vertical to a friend (I already had a larger vertical). Selling the horizontal right now. The vertical was OK machine but the head has no "nod", you can't tram it in if it's not machined square, and the one at the U wasn't square. If I was looking to buy the Rockwell I would want to check that.


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## middle.road (May 11, 2020)

I have the Model 40 and have enjoyed it over the years. Pretty rigid machine.
Need to check it out for wear and abuse.
How much are they asking for them up in Indiana?


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## 38super (May 11, 2020)

Very good small mill, work within the machine's limits.  Hope the seller has the original mill table parts.  Price?  
Rockwell forum https://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/rockwell-delta-aamco-manufacturing-co.390/
Burton's Attic has good YT vids.


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## pacifica (May 11, 2020)

I have a model 40 and it is fairly small footprint reasonably rigid and not too heavy for moving. Parts are still available but very expensive.
If you have to put  any money into it -it would be cheaper to buy a newer more modern machine.


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## matthewsx (May 11, 2020)

Not really apples to apples, the Wells should be a much larger machine. Condition is everything, make sure you get a test drive and bring someone who knows what they're looking at if you don't.

John


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## Buffalo21 (May 11, 2020)

I have a Rockwell, it basically a 50-60% scale model of a full sized Bridgeport., a great size for the home shop, it’s floor standing, R8, has a knee and and a reasonable sized table (6” x 23”). If your future use is decking SBC motors, this is not the mill for you.

the last Index mill I saw was about 3500#


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## timpet98 (May 11, 2020)

The index model 40 is about 1200lb, so while its probably about the limit of what I can get into a basement in pieces. I have a small horizontal that weighs approximately 900lb and it got down there. Ya that head tram issue  on the Rockwell scares me a bit, I would really love to find a Clausing vertical, but the only ones listed around me are pristine and tooled out, those are going for like $3k and while its probably a fair price for their condition its a bit out of my budget. The Rockwell and Index (not wells) so ya its old are $1k. My small horizontal is from the 40s and honestly not too worn out. I dont mind putting in the work for s fixer upper, but maybe not I've got an internship for the summer so maybe the pricier tooled up options will look more appealing in in a month or so


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## matthewsx (May 11, 2020)

Why not fit a vertical head to your horizontal mill?

John


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## 38super (May 11, 2020)

Head tramming is not bad, patience and a rubber mallet persuader.


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## Asm109 (May 11, 2020)

I would pick the Index, unless the condition is complete garbage.


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## OTmachine (May 11, 2020)

Rockwell is missing quite a few parts.  If it was all together, it is a nice basement machine.  Knocks down into moveable pieces.  Mine had X powerfeed and quill DRO.


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## machPete99 (May 12, 2020)

If you are worried about the "nod" on the Rockwell, bring a test indicator, holder rod, and collet and check it before buying.

Mine happens to be dead nuts front to back. I think the only way it could be off would be if the factory screwed up or the mill was dropped or damaged in some way. If its off by "tenths" and it bothers you the trunnion that holds the ram could be scraped/filed as needed.

I have noticed on the Rockwell that if the knee gib is not adjusted correctly and locked down there will be some forward table tilt that could be interpreted as a nod problem. This is on the order of 1-2 thousandths on mine, which is well within typical milling accuracy expectations. If you religiously lock down the knee this problem goes away.

The only thing I miss on these smaller mills is the rotating turret which allows you to work on a part that overhangs the edge of the table/knee. The Clausing version does have this feature but usually has oddball collets and more primitive gibs. So, there are going to be tradeoffs here if you want something smaller than a full size Bridgeport.

There is also the PM 935 Taiwanese mill that looks nice and will be new, but it will take some cash.


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## projectnut (May 12, 2020)

I wouldn't be afraid of disassembling the Index machine and moving it to the basement.  I moved my 2,200 lb. Bridgeport down a flight of stairs one piece at a time.  I disassembled and cleaned it in the garage, and carted all but the column down on an appliance dolly.  The dolly wasn't heavy duty enough for the column so I tried to rent one.

After several weeks of contacting different rental companies I gave up on that idea.  I even considered purchasing a stair climber dolly until I found out what they cost.  One capable of handling the column would have cost more than the mill itself.  I finally contacted a local moving company.  They had a stair climber dolly capable of 1,700 lbs.  They came over one morning on the way to another job and moved the column from the garage to the basement.  It took all of 20 minutes and cost less than $200.00.


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## timpet98 (May 12, 2020)

I have looked hard for a vertical head that I could mount on my mill, the problem is there are not many good ways to mount a vertical head, the only way being the overarm. My mill is quite small and I would have to find the head off of a Clausing, Rockwell, or Rusnok or some other that size. Im also really looking for a quil, and since the power feed is run off of the horizontal spindle running the 1hp horizontal motor and the vertical head would blow my standard house fuse. The Rockwell sold, but I'm looking at the Index still got some more pics here they are.


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## matthewsx (May 12, 2020)

The wiring looks fairly recent. That could be a good sign if someone was using it and it was working well, or a bad thing if they hooked it up and decided it was too far gone to bother with.

If you're into restoring tools it might make a worthy candidate but get the price down, especially if he's not going to hook it up for testing.

John


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## matthewsx (May 12, 2020)

You are lucky to be in an area where there are plenty of machines to choose from, have you considered placing a "wanted" ad for your dream machine? There could be someone not far from you that has something nice in their garage and would rather have a mortgage payment right about now.

John


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## Aaron_W (May 12, 2020)

As far as possible vertical heads for your current horizontal mill Bridgeport M heads are fairly cheap, and lots of small mills were converted to use them. Clausing offered a factory conversion to put an M head on the 8520. I have a small 5x20 Diamond horizontal mill, and some of them were also converted to vertical mills using a Bridgeport M head.


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## timpet98 (May 12, 2020)

As far as a Bridgeport head, again the problem of running the head motor and the horizontal spindle motor (1hp single phase 120v) at the same time in order to engage the power feed, doesn't seem realistic to me. The 1hp motor that I have draws 12 amp on its own and with just a standard 15amp fuse I'd be popping it all day long. 

There are actually two different Clausings for sale in my area, the problem is both were just redone, and they are asking for something like a mortgage payment, and that's just not really in my budget.

I've got no problem with a project mill, it wouldn't be my first the horizontal got stripped down bolt for bolt and back together with out a manual. 

My major concern is with wear, I'm not really sure how I can evaluate it with the ways all covered in 15-20 years of dust (last ran according to seller). 

Any suggestions on things that I can ask the seller to check for me, before I commit to an 8 hour round trip drive?


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## pacifica (May 13, 2020)

timpet98 said:


> I have looked hard for a vertical head that I could mount on my mill, the problem is there are not many good ways to mount a vertical head, the only way being the overarm. My mill is quite small and I would have to find the head off of a Clausing, Rockwell, or Rusnok or some other that size. Im also really looking for a quil, and since the power feed is run off of the horizontal spindle running the 1hp horizontal motor and the vertical head would blow my standard house fuse. The Rockwell sold, but I'm looking at the Index still got some more pics here they are.


all the moving surfaces are handscraped, so it is pretty easy to visually check the wear, before getting out the indicators.Can he clean them off so you can get a good look?


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