# Do I Sell My Rf-30 For A Grizzly 704 Style?



## Fishwater (May 5, 2016)

I just purchased my first milling machine, it's an older Enco 105-1110 RF-30 round column mill that I haven't even used yet but I've spent time going through it & cleaning it up which I've really enjoyed. Now that it is ready to be run & I can learn how to use the darn thing I got a pretty good offer to sell the machine covering what I paid for it, invested into it plus a little more but I am struggling with the decision. I'll be keeping the tooling I've already accumulated plus a set of Igaging absolute DRO's I planned on installing on the old mill. I've read all the pitfalls of owning a round column mill & while they may deter me slightly I think I can adapt to its shortcomings.  The budget including selling the old mill & adding some cash for a new mill would be $1500 & I think that puts me into a machine like the 704 since space is a premium in the garage. As much as I'd love a BP style mill even though I have 220 wired in the garage I just don't have the room, as it is the Enco on a stand is taking up more room than I hoped. An older used machine isn't out of the question of course but they are hard to come by in a bench mill type of size so it looks like a new machine would have to replace it. Looking at my choices in the $1500 range it looks like the 704, possibly the PMD-25 & maybe something else I haven't found yet are my choices but I can't help but feel like I am not really getting an upgrade. 

Sure 350lbs shipping weight is a lot easier to move around but I realize what the loss of mass can do to the capacity of the machine as well as 1hp 110v vs the 1.5hp 220v I currently have. I have no experience with a mill other than the current mill I've spent time cleaning, trimming & adjusting. I have some projects that I plan on, basically milling boxes out of delrin which is why I bought the machine but I also have guns, a muscle car & other toys I tinker with as time allows. In other words I'll be hobby milling & using the machine to learn the fundamentals of machining as a hobby. So what do I do here? Go for new & shiny or stick with old iron? Is it an upgrade or not? Pro's, con's or draw?


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## TomS (May 5, 2016)

In my opinion there is just one so-called downside to having a round column mill and that is the loss of position when lowering and raising the head.  Other than that they are usually well built machines that are capable of very accurate work.  If you plan ahead there will usually be only a few times where you have to re-center because you moved the head.  I've had my RF30 for about eight years and have done a lot of work on it.  I too am into hotrods/muscle cars and probably would have struggled to fit some of my car parts on a 704 or 25.  The call is yours but I realize you don't have any experience so you most likely won't know if going for the new mill or sticking with what you have is best.  Personally, I like my RF30 and would not exchange it for a 704 or 25.  But that's my opinion.

Hope this is helpful.

Tom S.


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## Bill W. (May 5, 2016)

I have a round column mill similar to yours...  I asked basically the same question concerning re-aligning the head and was informed on this site that with careful planning most jobs can be completed without moving the head.  figure out the longest tool you are going to need for that particular job and set the head to the necessary height before starting.  A little planning ahead can save a lot of time later.  Good luck...

Bill


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## Fishwater (May 6, 2016)

Thank you guys, that does help since I have zero experience with machining plus I can't even see one of the other machines in person to get perspective of size.


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## stupoty (May 6, 2016)

Buy an edge finder from starret and fit the dro and mill some boxes 

Stuart


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## ryan79 (May 6, 2016)

personaly speaking I would sell mine and spring the extra for a pm727m. im in the same boat. just got it 6 month ago. rf30 with a cvt transmition  and power down feed on quill. nothing wrong with it but decided if im going to have one for the rest of my days ide rather spend all my expenses and upgrades/tooling that will best fit to mill im going to keep.  im in the process of installing a dro on it now and the hole time im thinking about a pm727m.  the more time you have into it the harder it will be to make the choice if you get what im saying here.


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## intjonmiller (May 12, 2016)

While we're on the subject here, can someone please explain to me why there ARE round column mills? Is it just the simplified manufacturing process to cut costs? Or are there any practical advantages to being able to swing the head around? 

I've read a number of comments where people say that their radial drill presses were a waste of money because they never use that feature, but I imagine that could have been part of the goal?? The main benefits of RADs is that they allow you to work on pieces too large to fit between the drill and the table, and the head rotates in two axes for compound angle drilling. It seems to me that all the round column mills I've seen don't benefit from either of those functions. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty well convinced to buy a square column mill when the time comes. I'm just trying to understand the design goal of these. Also my brother has one (RF-30 type) so knowing of any benefits may come in handy at some point.


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 12, 2016)

2 things I'd guess - first is that they're a copy of a variable speed heavy duty drill press/ light duty mill made by Clausing in the 80s. As most of the Chinese/ Taiwanese machines originally were copies of EU/US machines, I'd imagine that they just took the design, put in some pulleys instead of the variable speed stuff, and then sold them as is.
Second, fewer precision surfaces = cheaper. Also, I'd imagine a piece of pipe is cheaper than a somewhat complex cast square column shape


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## intjonmiller (May 12, 2016)

mattthemuppet said:


> I'd imagine a piece of pipe is cheaper than a somewhat complex cast square column shape


That's my primary assumption (which I abbreviated as "simplified manufacturing process").


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 12, 2016)

true, but I think are larger part of it is that was how the tool they copied was built (which I don't think was ever intended to be a mill). You can see that in the mini lathe and it's larger counterparts, all copies of Emco lathes - Emco 5 = 7x10, Emco 8 = 9x20, Emco 10 = ?. The copiers also copied various quirks in the original designs


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## intjonmiller (May 12, 2016)

I love seeing when they copy things incorrectly because they don't understand how to use them, like the rip graduations on a Harbor Freight speed square that are on the wrong leg, making them useless for ripping.


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## JimDawson (May 12, 2016)

intjonmiller said:


> I've read a number of comments where people say that their radial drill presses were a waste of money because they never use that feature, but I imagine that could have been part of the goal?? The main benefits of RADs is that they allow you to work on pieces too large to fit between the drill and the table, and the head rotates in two axes for compound angle drilling. It seems to me that all the round column mills I've seen don't benefit from either of those functions.



I suggest that the small RADs were a marketing feature rather than a real functional machine.  Consider that a real RAD is a 5K to 10K pound machine with a column a foot or so in diameter.  Some things just don't scale very well.


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## owl (May 12, 2016)

I own a round column mill, and have found three issues with it, the first has been mentioned, raising and lowering the head generally causes loss of position, second, under heavy load, the head can slip around the column (changing the clamp bolts to fine thread, with their higher clamping force has all but eliminated that concern on mine), and third, the head can't be tilted to mill grooves with the edge of an end mill (although generally the work can be tilted instead).  There are a couple of small advantages, though.  First, in drilling you can leave the head loose, and make minor adjustments to where your drill lands (not a big use, but sometimes useful).  Second, the base can be bolted to the bench and the head swiveled to allow work on the floor below to be drilled, when it would be otherwise too big to handle.  All in all, if I could swap even for a square mill of the same size and capacity, I probably would, but it would certainly be no priority.


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## mikey (May 12, 2016)

mattthemuppet said:


> true, but I think are larger part of it is that was how the tool they copied was built (which I don't think was ever intended to be a mill). You can see that in the mini lathe and it's larger counterparts, all copies of Emco lathes - Emco 5 = 7x10, Emco 8 = 9x20, Emco 10 = ?. The copiers also copied various quirks in the original designs



I think Matt is dead on the money here. Asian copies reproduce design flaws, down to the plastic gears found on the originals. Oh, and the Emco Super 11 was copied into the Sieg SC8.

Round column mill drills are heavy duty drill presses and light duty mills. They typically weigh 650-750# so they're fairly stout for what they are. I was just given (as in totally free) an RF-31 that was originally used for drilling bowling balls and that sucker will put a 1" carbide-tipped spade drill through a bowling ball with almost no effort; try that with most modern hobby class mills and see how it works. When used as a heavy drill press with a 5" stroke and about 18" of headroom they are very good machines. When used as a mill they are less convenient but they still do a fairly good job of it - I've used an RF-31 before so I'm not totally unfamiliar with these machines.

With that said, if I were to spend money on a mill today I would buy a square column knee mill, no doubt about it.


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## Bill Gruby (May 12, 2016)

Why would you take the time to clean and repair something, then sell it before you gave it a chance to prove itself?? I believe that is the original post content. I know lots of home hobby people that are happy with their round column mill drills. Give it a try for a while. My Grandfather used to say the grass is only greener on the other side of the fence because you don't groom your own. No matter what type of machine it is, it is only as good as the person operating it.

Mikey, what is a square column knee-mill? Knee Mills have tables the move on the Z axis and the heads are attached to Rams and non movable, only the spindle moves on the Z axis. There is no need for a column.Maybe I missed something.

"Billy G"


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## stupoty (May 12, 2016)

mattthemuppet said:


> 2 things I'd guess - first is that they're a copy of a variable speed heavy duty drill press/ light duty mill made by Clausing in the 80s. As most of the Chinese/ Taiwanese machines originally were copies of EU/US machines, I'd imagine that they just took the design, put in some pulleys instead of the variable speed stuff, and then sold them as is.
> Second, fewer precision surfaces = cheaper. Also, I'd imagine a piece of pipe is cheaper than a somewhat complex cast square column shape




The round coloum is a cast peice on my rf25 size mill, it's pritty heavey. As you say turning a round thing on a lathe has got to be a cheeper manufacturing process than making a dovetail way.

Sturt


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## mikey (May 12, 2016)

My mistake. I intended to put an "or" between square column and knee.


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## Fishwater (May 13, 2016)

I've decided to keep it since other hobbies have taken a priority for the last few weeks & it doesn't make sense to invest in something else. I was only looking for something else because I would have appreciated the space savings in the shop but at the end of the day the expense wasn't something I could justify.


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