# D1-4 Chucks Back Plate Interchangability



## Elmo (Nov 24, 2015)

I have an Enco 13x40 gap bed lathe that I acquired secondhand. It came with a 3 jaw chuck mounted and a 4 jaw chuck with no backplate. I have no experience with D-4 backplates. Can I change the backplate from  one to the other or do I have to buy a backplate for the four jaw and fit it to the chuck? I also would like to have a faceplate also. Sorry if this is a dumb question.
  Elmo


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## tomh (Nov 24, 2015)

Elmo
The chances of the register on your back plate being a good fit is iffy at best, so I would buy a back plate  that way changing chucks will be easy.
I will hazard a guess  that the 4 jaw is a 8"? if so grizzly has a T25219  D1-4 8"  back plate for $ 79.00
And if you are a vet they have a 5% discount
Tomh

*elmo there is no such thing in my book as a dumb question*

The face plate to fit your lathe from grizzly is  P07821002  but you will have to call there parts dept to get a price.


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## mksj (Nov 24, 2015)

Chucks come in a number of configurations, if it is a plain back then it needs a D1-4 back plate to attach to your lathe. Back plates are usually stepped so the the back plate aligns with the chuck, and the position and depth of the step can vary by chuck. You can buy back plates that are fully machined for a particular chuck, but most likely you can purchase a partially machined or unmachined D1-4 back  and turn it to your specific chuck. There is an advantage to doing a surface cut and the final registration step on your machine as this can give you less run out due to small variations in how the chuck mounts to your machine (but assumes your lathe is in proper alignment). Even if you had two chucks that had the same back plate, you would be better off having a separate D1-4 back plate for each one. I find that there can be small variations in how a chuck will mount, and there can be one position which gives you the lowest TIR (run out).  With scroll chucks I mark my spindle and chucks, so the D1-X always mounts in the same place. If you get a face plate, they come as a D1-4 direct mount.

Back plates are inexpensive and readily available. I have purchased mine from http://www.tools4cheap.net/ as they have a wide selection and they were knowledgeable as to recommendations. Otherwise, Shar's Grizzly, etc carry a wide selection.


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## Tozguy (Nov 24, 2015)

Yes, if the chucks both have the same backs then the backplate from one will fit the other. Chances are tho that the 4 jaw will be a larger diameter than the 3 jaw and not have the same bolt pattern. Anyways I predict that it will get old real fast to have to switch over the backplate from one chuck to the other even if it is possible.


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## Elmo (Nov 24, 2015)

tomh said:


> Elmo
> The chances of the register on your back plate being a good fit is iffy at best, so I would buy a back plate  that way changing chucks will be easy.
> I will hazard a guess  that the 4 jaw is a 8"? if so grizzly has a T25219  D1-4 8"  back plate for $ 79.00
> And if you are a vet they have a 5% discount
> ...



Thanks! It is an 8" and yes I am a vet.
Elmo


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## Elmo (Nov 27, 2015)

Correct me if I am wrong. After a lot of searching and pulling my 3 jaw and looking at the back I think all that I need is the cam lock pins and attaching hardware. I am attaching a picture of the 4 jaw chuck.
  Elmo


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## chevydyl (Nov 27, 2015)

Yes you are right, it needs the pins and retainer screws.you will have to search to find the Jacob's article on setting up the cam lock pins correctly, so you get it just right and precise repeatability


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## Elmo (Nov 27, 2015)

chevydyl said:


> Yes you are right, it needs the pins and retainer screws.you will have to search to find the Jacob's article on setting up the cam lock pins correctly, so you get it just right and precise repeatability


Thanks for the help. I have found a few threads about adjusting the camlock studs but not an article. Now I just have to find some studs to buy.
  Elmo


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## chevydyl (Nov 27, 2015)

Here is the link, it's from tools and gizmos
http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/info/Jacobs_Rubber_Collet_Chuck.pdf


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## Elmo (Nov 27, 2015)

Thank you!
  Elmo


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## Elmo (Nov 27, 2015)

I get answers to questions faster than any forum I have been on. Great bunch of people here!
 Elmo


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## mksj (Nov 27, 2015)

Be careful that that the camlocks are for a D1-4, as the pins are different then say a D1-3 or D1-6. Try http://www.ajaxtoolsupply.com/ or http://www.tools4cheap.net/ , sometimes they pop up on eBay. They also should have the metric retainer Allen screws or get them at your local hardware store. Easy to setup, screw in the pins until when the chuck is mounted and the D1-4 are fully locked, the key socket mark must be between the two carrot ">" marks on the spindle mount. Look at the Grizzly lathe manuals and they will give more specific details/pictures. The Allen screw prevents the stud from coming loose.


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## Tozguy (Nov 27, 2015)

And don't worry if there is some play in both studs and Allen screw. They both need a few degrees of freedom so that the stud can float and seat on the cam properly. For that reason the Allen screw should be sunk below the surface but not be torqued down.


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## chevydyl (Nov 27, 2015)

Read  that pdf link I posted, follow it to the T for proper setup of the cams


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## BGHansen (Nov 27, 2015)

Make sure you put the 3 socket screws in place before mounting the chuck.  You won't be able to get the chuck off the lathe if you just have the pins in the chuck and no counter-rotation cap screws.  Never done it myself, just what I've read on this forum and in my Grizzly lathe manual.


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## Elmo (Nov 27, 2015)

chevydyl said:


> Read  that pdf link I posted, follow it to the T for proper setup of the cams


I have read it and saved it to iBooks for future reference. Thanks again.
  Elmo


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## Tozguy (Nov 28, 2015)

BGHansen said:


> Make sure you put the 3 socket screws in place before mounting the chuck.  You won't be able to get the chuck off the lathe if you just have the pins in the chuck and no counter-rotation cap screws.  Never done it myself, just what I've read on this forum and in my Grizzly lathe manual.



The Grizzly manual for the G0750G lathe on pages 30 and 31 has excellent instructions for mounting and removing cam lock chucks. I have not seen better. However there is no mention of a possible chuck removal problem if the counter rotation screws are left out.  Would it be possible to know which Grizzly manual and on what page you have read that particular info? I may have to correct my understanding of the D1-4 system. Thanks.


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## BGHansen (Nov 28, 2015)

I've looked high and low through my Grizzly manual and do not see a reference to chucks getting stuck without the anti-rotation cap screws in place; I stand corrected.  I'll look through some other reference material and see which lathe manual (Central Machinery, ENCO, etc.) and post which manual that info came from.

Bruce


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## tomh (Nov 28, 2015)

The information  I had about the the anti-rotation cap screws was in the *instruction manual* that came  my chuck/ face plate. and was in *bold*  print.


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## Tozguy (Nov 28, 2015)

Elmo, please let me know if I am abusing your thread. I don't want to get picky but I believe the more we understand something the better we will be able to use it. My new lathe was delivered with a D1-4 3 jaw mounted on the spindle but it had  not been installed with enough care. Two of the cams were badly mangled and it was a job to remove the chuck. Fortunately they were replaced on warantee but the experience showed me that if I screw up when mounting a chuck it will be the cams that will suffer. They are softer than the studs (and more expensive).
I have since made three D1-4 adapters for different purposes and make my own studs. They all work great. Any of my chucks can be mounted or removed quickly and easily with excellent repeatability. I am convinced that understanding in detail what each D1-4 component does and doesn't do was worth it.  The anti rotation cap screws are there to keep the stud facing in the right direction and to keep it on the right depth setting. They can accomplish that without being torqued tight but they have to be there to do the job. Not that they should be left out but if they are, it is beyond me how that would prevent chuck removal. If I am missing something I dearly want to know what it is.  Since you are faced with fitting some studs and counterrotation  cap screws this might be of interest to you too.


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## Elmo (Nov 28, 2015)

The thread has gotten completely off topic so just go ahead. The simple answer is not to leave the screws out. I have found out the stuff I needed to know so I don't care. BTW Toz do you have have a thread on the ones that you made?
Elmo


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## Tozguy (Nov 29, 2015)

No threads re the ones I made. It sure was fun and I learned much but it is nothing that is not already on the web.
Be glad to help however if asked.


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## chevydyl (Nov 29, 2015)

I would not recommend a beginner to make them, there is an ansi standard for them, they need to be hardened as well.


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## Elmo (Nov 30, 2015)

I found a set at Grizzely for $30.00 shipped. They are ordered. Thanks for the help to all who posted. Installing those things is a piece of cake.
  Elmo


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## Bill C. (Nov 30, 2015)

Elmo said:


> I have an Enco 13x40 gap bed lathe that I acquired secondhand. It came with a 3 jaw chuck mounted and a 4 jaw chuck with no backplate. I have no experience with D-4 backplates. Can I change the backplate from  one to the other or do I have to buy a backplate for the four jaw and fit it to the chuck? I also would like to have a faceplate also. Sorry if this is a dumb question.
> Elmo



There are no dumb questions only those not asked.  I hope you found a good answer to your question.  I had to do a Google search to recognize I had used that system on one lathe.  

I have worked in my apprentice shop and a couple others that had several different mounting systems and different brands of lathes. I realize the shop's bought auctioned machinery,  Not sure about the GE apprentice shop where all their machines came from. I guess they didn't want to see a new machine crashed, I don't recall it happening while I was there for about two years.

Good luck,


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## Bill C. (Nov 30, 2015)

Elmo said:


> I found a set at Grizzely for $30.00 shipped. They are ordered. Thanks for the help to all who posted. Installing those things is a piece of cake.
> Elmo



Good


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## kingmt01 (Nov 30, 2015)

I remember reading in my Grizzly manual that if the lugs turned you would not be able to remove the chuck.


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## rustdreamer (Dec 1, 2015)

Along with all of this: another question -- does a chuck attach to the spindle the same each time and what would prevent a change in runout?


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## Tozguy (Dec 1, 2015)

Thoroughly clean surfaces among other things.


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## joshua43214 (Dec 1, 2015)

rustdreamer said:


> Along with all of this: another question -- does a chuck attach to the spindle the same each time and what would prevent a change in runout?


A well fitted D1 series chuck should go back on the pretty much the same each time.
The common practice is to mount the chuck in all possible ways until you have the minimum run out, then use a center punch to add a witness mark to the chuck that lines up with something on the spindle.
In theory, you should be able to remove the chuck with work in it, do some kind of second ops like milling, then remount it to the lathe for finishing.

The main things that will prevent it going back together are in no particular order: chuck not properly fitted, debris/dust on the mating surfaces, tightening one stud before the others are snug. There are plenty of article on fitting a D1 chuck already. When you mount it, turn each stud enough to engage, then turn each one to a light snug, then tighten each one down.


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## chevydyl (Dec 1, 2015)

If you read that pdf file I linked too, it gives descriptions of a precision installation and just throwing the chuck on and goin,and what to expect


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## Elmo (Dec 1, 2015)

chevydyl said:


> If you read that pdf file I linked too, it gives descriptions of a precision installation and just throwing the chuck on and goin,and what to expect



I do not intend to just slap it on. Thepdf is a good article. When I said a piece of cake I meant that it is doable for anyone who can read, understand, and put to use what he read! Thanks again for your help.
Elmo


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## chevydyl (Dec 1, 2015)

Elmo, I was directing that towards rust, seems he didn't read it at all, as it has that pertinent information in the document


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## Elmo (Dec 5, 2015)

chevydyl said:


> Elmo, I was directing that towards rust, seems he didn't read it at all, as it has that pertinent information in the document



Thanks for the help Chevydyl! I have it on the lathe and .0005 runout on the chuck. The Grizzley studs are more of a kit. I emailed them that two of the studs wouldn't screw down more than halfway while one would bottom in all the holes and never heard from them. I went to the hardware store and bought a 10X1 mm die and ran it down a few times them turned it over and repeated. They then worked. Now if I could get proficient at centering my work piece! I appreciate your help.
  Elmo


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## Tozguy (Dec 5, 2015)

Elmo, thanks for keeping us posted. When you were cleaning up the threads on the studs from Grizzly, did the steel seem very hard?


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## Elmo (Dec 5, 2015)

No it isn't very hard. I had to file one of the engaging slots to remove some roughness and it cut pretty easily with jeweler so files. Made me think!
  Elmo


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## mksj (Dec 5, 2015)

Had a similar problem with  D1-4 pins on a Chinese 5C D1-4 chuck, cleaned the threads and the relief near the stud. Was surprised that they did not seem hardened. 

Elmo, there is a nice thread on centering with the 4 jaw chuck, lots of information. I prefer to use two keys, just find it faster to do both jaws at once, then tighten up one key to get the last tweak. Independent four jaw chucks are probably a bit more challenging with smaller stock, I just find with the larger jaws/flats that stock may twist a bit when tightening everything up. Mostly use a 5C for anything under an inch, seems to work well, but one needs a lot of collets and a bit slow if you are using a 5C chuck.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/quickly-aligning-a-four-jaw-lathe-chuck.34609/


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## Elmo (Dec 6, 2015)

mksj said:


> Had a similar problem with  D1-4 pins on a Chinese 5C D1-4 chuck, cleaned the threads and the relief near the stud. Was surprised that they did not seem hardened.
> 
> Elmo, there is a nice thread on centering with the 4 jaw chuck, lots of information. I prefer to use two keys, just find it faster to do both jaws at once, then tighten up one key to get the last tweak. Independent four jaw chucks are probably a bit more challenging with smaller stock, I just find with the larger jaws/flats that stock may twist a bit when tightening everything up. Mostly use a 5C for anything under an inch, seems to work well, but one needs a lot of collets and a bit slow if you are using a 5C chuck.
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/quickly-aligning-a-four-jaw-lathe-chuck.34609/



I have read that thread, it is good information and is the method that I used except that I only have one chuck key. I did find that a 3/8" socket extension sorta works but is loose and might wear the chuck recesses so I just used the one key. I think that practice will help.
   Elmo


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## chevydyl (Dec 6, 2015)

Go buy a piece of 1/2 inch square stock or round and make a new chuck key by grinding, weld a handle on it to form a T, exactly what I did when I got my lathe, but I used 4140 tgp round bar


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## Elmo (Dec 7, 2015)

Good idea. I have some metal that will work.
  Elmo


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## 4GSR (Dec 7, 2015)

chevydyl said:


> I would not recommend a beginner to make them, there is an ansi standard for them, they need to be hardened as well.



You don't want to harden the pins.  They will snap off at the instant a sudden shock hits them.  Make them from high heat treat such as 41xx 28-36 HRC, yes.  
All ANSI specifies is dimensions for the pins and features of the "D" series needed to make necessary parts.  It is totally up to the manufacture on what materials and heat treat to use.


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## chevydyl (Dec 7, 2015)

I didn't say they needed to be 62rc but they do need way more in toughness and hardness than 1018....


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## Elmo (Dec 7, 2015)

I started making a pair of chuck keys today. I had several pieces of 1" sucker rod and turned a pair about 4 1/2" long. Now I have to part them off, square the ends and drill for handles. I think the sucker rods are 4140 steel so should work ok.
  Elmo


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## Tozguy (Dec 8, 2015)

Elmo, looking forward to seeing your chuck keys.

Re D1-4 studs, I have made some from grade 8,8 metric bolts and wonder if you folks think that is suitable steel for holding an 8'' chuck to the spindle.


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## mike95376 (Dec 8, 2015)

I marked my head and both my D1-4 chucks so I can always put the chucks in with the same pin going in the same hole.  The idea is that I spent a long time fiddling around to minimize run out.  ie., Install chuck, test run out. Remove chuck rotate to next pin, reinstall, test run out. Etc... So I want to make sure I put things together the same way each time.  
If nothing else it makes me feel better.


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## Elmo (Dec 9, 2015)

I finished my chuck keys today. Now I have to read up on heat bluing. I used a poor mans milling machine to square the ends, same thing as a file. They work too.
  Elmo


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## BGHansen (Dec 9, 2015)

Very nice job


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## bfd (Oct 18, 2016)

the location and runout is governed by the short taper inside of the pin pattern. bill


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## Chipper5783 (Oct 18, 2016)

Bill is correct - the runout of the back plate should be governed by the short taper inside the pin pattern (once the chuck mounting surface of the back plate has been machined).  Of course the chuck performance "is what it is" but dealing with that is another topic, which has been discussed in numerous threads.  Theoretically, it should not matter what pin the chuck assembly goes on - when it is a quality machine and the spindle nose is in good condition.  My machines probably don't qualify - they are not horrible, but they are not perfect.  I have been through the basic chuck & mounting tuning activities - with good result.  On my machine, there is certainly a preferred orientation which gives slightly better results, compared to the other two positions.


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## Elmo (Oct 20, 2016)

Update
A while back the guy that I got thelathe from called and said that he had found a box of stuff that went the lathe. I picked it up and behold, the original pins were in it. Also a face plate. I replaced the grizzley pins with the original ones and it mounts a lot easier.
  Elmo


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## bfd (Oct 20, 2016)

when I received my enco lathe I attempted to set the 3 jaw chuck on the d 1-6 spindle it had a gap between the back of the chuck to the spindle. the gap was on the side you snugged last. this caused a runout of .030" on the face of the chuck. I tried other chucks the all did this to some degree. I could acceptable results if I played with the 6 mounting pin and cams. but I didn't want to indicate in my chucks in each time I used it. so I took my chuck to work and mounted it on one of the lathes there. it was also a d 1-6. it ran perfect just line up pins to the holes no playing around. so I determined that my lathe spindle was big. after bluing the spindle to the chuck and stoning and stoning for days I got it to fit perfectly. blued perfect. all my d 1-6 chuck work good also. this was a long and difficult job but I got it to work. this is how I know that the center taper set the runout. see my previous post in this thread. bill


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## cjtoombs (Oct 25, 2016)

I've ordered two sets of studs and a set of cams from a company called Mac-it.  I have a HF 13x40 and neither the cams or studs were hardened, which resulted in problems.  They will be 7/16 UNF, so they will not work as is with Chinese chucks that have metric threads.  I drilled the existing threads out and helicoiled them to 7/16 UNF.  They work much better now.  I havn't had a chuck fly off the machine since I changed to these studs and cams.

http://www.macit.com/


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