# Question on buying this surface grinder



## Brento (May 26, 2022)

If i buy this surface grinder is it possible to change it from 3 phase to single phase


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## Winegrower (May 26, 2022)

Yes: Just get a static phase converter.


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## Brento (May 26, 2022)

How much can those be though?


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## Winegrower (May 26, 2022)

I think it’s the cheapest path.  Depends on HP, but in the sub $200 range.


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## jwmelvin (May 26, 2022)

I’d think the increased smoothness of three-phase drive makes it worth buying a $120-200 VFD in this application.

Edit: perhaps a static converter for non-spindle motors. I’m using two VFDs in my surface grinder. A cheap one for the hydraulic pump and a nicer one for the spindle.


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## MikeInOr (May 26, 2022)

A static phase convertor will work fine.  It will derate the motor by 1/3 of its rated hp. 

Rotary phase convertors will run the grinder at full power but cost considerably more than a static convertor. 

A VFD (variable frequency drive) is relatively inexpensive, will give you full power and add speed control but would require diving into the machines wiring.

All 3 are good solutions with trade offs between price, performance and complexity.

What is the HP rating of the spindle motor?  Is the spindle motor the only motor on the grinder?


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## Brento (May 26, 2022)

MikeInOr said:


> A static phase convertor will work fine.  It will derate the motor by 1/3 of its rated hp.
> 
> Rotary phase convertors will run the grinder at full power but cost considerably more than a static convertor.
> 
> ...


Not exactly sure bc i havent bought it yet. Still fighting with the wife to let me get it. I believe it is one motor though.


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## deakin (May 26, 2022)

you could also buy a single phase motor. i had to do that with my 10hp platen grinder however that surface grinder is no where near that hp


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## C-Bag (May 26, 2022)

This has been mentioned before and all the surface grinder hands all said vfd and stay 3ph because 3ph is smoother and single phase will affect the the grind.


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## Brento (May 26, 2022)

Have to get the wife’s approval at this point. Just trying to get a head start. if i do get it.


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## DavidR8 (May 26, 2022)

I put a Teco VFD on my surface grinder. I didn't mess with the machine's electrics as I just wired the motor direct to the VFD and used the panel controls to run it. Couldn't have been more simple.


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## Brento (May 26, 2022)

That is prob what i would do @DavidR8


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## Brento (May 26, 2022)

What else could you do with a surface grinder. I know of things you can do with them but bc i am trying to get her to let me buy it i am drawing a blank on it all. I said sharpen cutters in like 3-4 different ways and im like yup this is helping


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## MrWhoopee (May 26, 2022)

This is where I got my SPC, quite happy with it.


			WNY Supply Online store for static phase converters
		


I've heard it claimed that, because the motor is only powered on 2 of the 3 legs when using an SPC, it can affect finish of the grind. Of course, I've also heard that claim for lathes, but I'never noticed it.


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## Beckerkumm (May 26, 2022)

I would agree with the fear of surface finish affect if going static.  Surface grinders are capable of finishing within .0001 and i find I use mine much more than I would have thought.  I mainly like neat machines and buy what I like without a need but the grinder with a good mag plate allows for fine tuning vs milling which in my world is more like a .001 precision.  Dave


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## Brento (May 26, 2022)

Well the wife has agreed to let me buy!


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## DavidR8 (May 26, 2022)

Woohoo! Way to go


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## Brento (May 27, 2022)

Now to find projects for it. I know it is sometimes a very niche machine. I will need a vfd though. I will get the motor info and more tmr.


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## mmcmdl (May 27, 2022)

What HP VFD ?


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## Brento (May 27, 2022)

I will be getting a motor size later today. I have the delivery partially set up. I have to talk with my neighbor with unloading.


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## projectnut (May 27, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> This is where I got my SPC, quite happy with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would agree.  My surface grinder came from the factory with a single phase motor and it's worked fine since 1954.  The spindle is belt driven rather than direct drive.


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## Brento (May 27, 2022)

This is the motor for the grinder.


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## DavidR8 (May 27, 2022)

Brento said:


> This is the motor for the grinder.


That looks exactly like the motor plate on my Parker Majestic. For what it's worth I ran it off a 120v 15A outlet with a 120v -->240v VFD.


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## Brento (May 27, 2022)

I am fine with running 220 or 240 but bc i cant do 3 phase. I just need help on finding a vfd to use.


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## DavidR8 (May 27, 2022)

Brento said:


> I am fine with running 220 or 240 but bc i cant do 3 phase. I just need help on finding a vfd to use.


I've had excellent luck with Teco, but have also heard good things about Hitatchi, Durapulse, ABB.


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## mksj (May 27, 2022)

VFD Teco, L510-201-H1-U, 1 HP, 230 Volts, 1 Phase input $168. Issue with 120V input VFD's is they usually are plugged into GFCI sockets which will trip when used with VFD's, but if you wanted to use 120V socket, then that model number would be L510-101-H1-U which runs around $20 more.




__





						Teco-Westinghouse, L510-201-H1-U, 1 HP, Variable Frequency Drive 230 Volt, 1 Phase Input, IP20,  at Dealers Industrial
					

Purchase Teco-Westinghouse, L510-201-H1-U, 1 HP, Variable Frequency Drive 230 Volt, 1 Phase Input, IP20,  from Dealers Industrial, formerly L510-201-H1-N




					dealerselectric.com


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## 7milesup (May 27, 2022)

Hey Brento.
I have a Bridgeport 815 surface grinder which I run off of 220 single phase.  I purchased *this VFD from Amazon* however, it is a rather el-cheapo one.  Mark (@mksj ) has some excellent recommendations for you.
The power requirements for a surface grinder are very low.  The largest draw is during startup of course.  When I am doing any grinding, the amp readout is a fraction of the motor rating.  It has been a long time since I looked at it but I want to say that I saw something on the order of 2.0amps when running.  I feel that the SG manufacturers put a 1hp grinder on these small ones because that was what was available.
I should also mention that having a VFD programmed for a soft start on the SG is really nice, just don't program a brake into it because that would not end well.


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## Brento (May 27, 2022)

Well idk how to do any of that stuff @7milesup it will be new for me and i may have someone on here talk me through it step by step. I will be running my own electric. I am fine running 220. It doesnt need to be 110. I just need something to convert from 3 phase to single phase. @mksj


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## 7milesup (May 27, 2022)

Brento said:


> I just need something to convert from 3 phase to single phase


I believe that may be the other way around 

Let us know when you are ready, there is a ton of knowledge on here.


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## Brento (May 28, 2022)

Anyone with grinder experience can you tell me what type of dressing sticks i will need? I have quite a few diamonds but supposedly that is just for trueing a wheel and i need dressing sticks to dress a wheel after. This grind is coming with a Norton Brake Controller truing device.


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## DavidR8 (May 28, 2022)

I didn’t know there was a difference between truing and dressing a wheel.


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## Brento (May 28, 2022)

That is what i thought. Something i saw said trueing cleans up the wheel but you have to dress the wheel to wear away the bonding compound for the grit?  I found it when i was looking up what a brake speed controller was.


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## 7milesup (May 28, 2022)

Brento said:


> That is what i thought. Something i saw said trueing cleans up the wheel but you have to dress the wheel to wear away the bonding compound for the grit?  I found it when i was looking up what a brake speed controller was.


Never heard of that (not that I know a heck of a lot about surface grinding) but I use a single-point diamond mounted in a block that is then held fast with the magnetic chuck.  Once it is trued up with the diamond point, then it is time to start grinding.  Any dressing seems to me like it could then alter your just trued-up wheel.


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## Brento (May 28, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Never heard of that (not that I know a heck of a lot about surface grinding) but I use a single-point diamond mounted in a block that is then held fast with the magnetic chuck.  Once it is trued up with the diamond point, then it is time to start grinding.  Any dressing seems to me like it could then alter your just trued-up wheel.


That is what i thought and what i was taught.

This is the video i saw.


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## Brento (Jun 1, 2022)

How much do you think this could weigh?


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## 7milesup (Jun 1, 2022)

Brento said:


> How much do you think this could weigh?


If it is a DH612 it looks like it should be in the 885lb range.  My 815 Bridgeport surface grinder is somewhere in that range too.


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## Brento (Jun 1, 2022)

Ok thanks! Tmr is move in day!


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## 7milesup (Jun 3, 2022)

@Brento Wellllllll, we're waiting!  Do you have a surface grinder or a hunk of scrap metal?


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## Brento (Jun 3, 2022)

@7milesup i posted in the buy group about it but yes i do have a good looking grinder. Needs a little elbow grease but I believe she will be a fine machine for what i need. The electrical will be the biggest thing. I will prob buy the Teco vfd this weekend. Ill need to figure out what breaker size i will need for my panel box when i run the electric i know it will be a 220 just not sure on the amps. Also what kind of oil is needed in the oiler. It says something about pumping the oil before you start the spindle and every 15 minutes of use. She is home and in her resting place.


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## 7milesup (Jun 3, 2022)

Very nice!   It looks like it will clean up nice, although it doesn't look bad the way it is.

The wire and breaker size is straightforward to calculate.  Your spindle requires 2.7amps at FL (Full Load) and 230 volts.  14 gauge wire can handle 15 amps (actually 20, depending on temp) and 12 gauge has a 20 ampacity rating.  The voltage when determining the ampacity capability of wire is irrelevant.    In your case, I would run #12AWG with a 15 amp breaker.  By running the 12awg wire it allows for "headroom" should you decide to do something different with that outlet.  You will need a 3 wire conductor with ground so it will have a Black, White, Red, and either green or bare for ground. 
Just remember that there is to be no switch between the VFD and the motor.  The motor is run directly from the VFD.  I have mine utilizing a soft start to slowly spin the grinding wheel up, which is a nice feature.  Do not utilize any braking or you will find the grinding wheel across the shop when the nut unscrews itself. 
The oiler is somewhat of a mystery to me.  Mine has large oil wells with a wheel system to pull the oil onto the ways.  Yours has a different system but for the same purpose.  The motor is permanently lubricated according to the data plate, so nothing to do there.  I use 80w-90 gear oil in mine with STP oil treatment added as a tackifier.  One must remember that this is a manual machine and my arm will likely wear out before the ways do.


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## Brento (Jun 3, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Very nice!   It looks like it will clean up nice, although it doesn't look bad the way it is.
> 
> The wire and breaker size is straightforward to calculate.  Your spindle requires 2.7amps at FL (Full Load) and 230 volts.  14 gauge wire can handle 15 amps (actually 20, depending on temp) and 12 gauge has a 20 ampacity rating.  The voltage when determining the ampacity capability of wire is irrelevant.    In your case, I would run #12AWG with a 15 amp breaker.  By running the 12awg wire it allows for "headroom" should you decide to do something different with that outlet.  You will need a 3 wire conductor with ground so it will have a Black, White, Red, and either green or bare for ground.
> Just remember that there is to be no switch between the VFD and the motor.  The motor is run directly from the VFD.  I have mine utilizing a soft start to slowly spin the grinding wheel up, which is a nice feature.  Do not utilize any braking or you will find the grinding wheel across the shop when the nut unscrews itself.
> The oiler is somewhat of a mystery to me.  Mine has large oil wells with a wheel system to pull the oil onto the ways.  Yours has a different system but for the same purpose.  The motor is permanently lubricated according to the data plate, so nothing to do there.  I use 80w-90 gear oil in mine with STP oil treatment added as a tackifier.  One must remember that this is a manual machine and my arm will likely wear out before the ways do.


Whenever i leave this house or move my equipment i will prob be pulling all of the electrical out for the location i move to. The wiring is going to be the toughest part for me. That and the programming of the vfd. I do want to do a slow start up. It sounds like a good way to protect the face incase a wheel decides to act up. I know whenever i started one of these up i always always looked away from the spindle.


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## jwmelvin (Jun 3, 2022)

I just commissioned a Micromaster 618 by ripping out all the electricals and putting in two VFDs. It’s not hard and gives a good result.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 3, 2022)

I think Brent was referring to a Norbide stick a few posts back . You want the boron Brent if you buy one , and they aren't cheap . Carborundum stick for the rough crap is fine .


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## Brento (Jun 3, 2022)

That could be what it was called. Idk if im gonna try that stuff or not. I never used it before and cut fine when i used one.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 3, 2022)

The Norbide stick is for dressing radii on the wheel without a diamond radius dresser . If I find any , I'll give you a shout . My grinder is gone .


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## Brento (Jun 3, 2022)

Oh so you use a Norbide stick to create a radius by hand? Boy i would probably suck at that lol


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## mmcmdl (Jun 3, 2022)

Brento said:


> Oh so you use a Norbide stick to create a radius by hand? Boy i would probably suck at that lol


It's simple Brent . Start small and check it with phenolic ( sp ) . A caveman could do it ! 


			caveman commercials - Google Search


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## Brento (Jun 4, 2022)

If only i had some phenolic on hand. Don’t worry in a day or so i will be asking about the wheels i got with the grinder and what is good for/with what.


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## Boswell (Jun 4, 2022)

Brento said:


> If only i had some phenolic on hand


If only I had a caveman around


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## Brento (Jun 4, 2022)

Know me i would prob just do it by hand like dave said then shut the grinder down and check the radius on the stone. It may not be ideal but for stuff i would be doing it would be plenty accurate until i acquired a dresser.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 4, 2022)

Brento said:


> Know me i would prob just do it by hand like dave said then shut the grinder down and check the radius on the stone. It may not be ideal but for stuff i would be doing it would be plenty accurate until i acquired a dresser.


Piece of wood works great too ! Got wood ?   Did you get a VFD yet ?


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## Brento (Jun 4, 2022)

Prob going to order tonight or tmr.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 4, 2022)

Brento said:


> Prob going to order tonight or tmr.


What size ? ( as in HP )


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## Brento (Jun 4, 2022)

https://dealerselectric.com/L510-201-H1-N.asp#tabs-2
This one will prob be what i get. 1 HP


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## mmcmdl (Jun 4, 2022)

OK , just wonderin , I have a 3 HP down here new in the box , never opened . If I get this equipment , I'll be going with a RPC .

Did the organizer arrive ?


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## Brento (Jun 4, 2022)

Not yet. Shipping says it is running Late.


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## Janderso (Jun 4, 2022)

Brento said:


> Have to get the wife’s approval at this point. Just trying to get a head start. if i do get it.


Better to buy now and ask for forgiveness later .
I’m usually in the dog house.


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## Brento (Jun 4, 2022)

Oh it was a toughy. I think thecthing that helps was she buys Cricut machines and she didnt notice the price was only 600$ for the grinder.


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## Brento (Jun 5, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Very nice!   It looks like it will clean up nice, although it doesn't look bad the way it is.
> 
> The wire and breaker size is straightforward to calculate.  Your spindle requires 2.7amps at FL (Full Load) and 230 volts.  14 gauge wire can handle 15 amps (actually 20, depending on temp) and 12 gauge has a 20 ampacity rating.  The voltage when determining the ampacity capability of wire is irrelevant.    In your case, I would run #12AWG with a 15 amp breaker.  By running the 12awg wire it allows for "headroom" should you decide to do something different with that outlet.  You will need a 3 wire conductor with ground so it will have a Black, White, Red, and either green or bare for ground.
> Just remember that there is to be no switch between the VFD and the motor.  The motor is run directly from the VFD.  I have mine utilizing a soft start to slowly spin the grinding wheel up, which is a nice feature.  Do not utilize any braking or you will find the grinding wheel across the shop when the nut unscrews itself.
> The oiler is somewhat of a mystery to me.  Mine has large oil wells with a wheel system to pull the oil onto the ways.  Yours has a different system but for the same purpose.  The motor is permanently lubricated according to the data plate, so nothing to do there.  I use 80w-90 gear oil in mine with STP oil treatment added as a tackifier.  One must remember that this is a manual machine and my arm will likely wear out before the ways do.


What vfd do you use? I just bought a Teco for 185 last night im not 100% sure if it has the slow start up or not


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## Ischgl99 (Jun 5, 2022)

Brento said:


> What vfd do you use? I just bought a Teco for 185 last night im not 100% sure if it has the slow start up or not


All the Tecos I have do have a programmable ramp up time.  I don’t think I have come across a VFD that does not have that.  It’s nice being able to slowly ramp up the speed, I set my lathe acceleration time to five seconds, this way the forward/reverse lever works as a jog switch by just bumping the direction I need.


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## 7milesup (Jun 5, 2022)

Brento said:


> What vfd do you use? I just bought a Teco for 185 last night im not 100% sure if it has the slow start up or not


Yes, it will have a soft start option to program. 
I purchased a Lapond for my new mill.  It is not a mainstream brand but seems like it has all the bells and whistles that I will need, although I am considering a TECO instead. 
*Here is the one I bought from Amazon. *


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## Brento (Jun 5, 2022)

This is what i did with my day. My hands are all orange and hurt from scrubbing. The side by all of the electrical i will clean when i take all of that off. Now does anyone know if it is common for these things to have a converter on it from factory?  The box on the bottom right has 3 wires coming from it and going into the fuse panel in the middle. One ground and two other wires that wire to 2 different legs. But the weird thing is the power supply is hooked up to them as well. Would you think there would be 6 wires going to that box if it was a converter? 3 for the feed and 3 for the return. I can get a picture but at this point most of it wont matter anyways.


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## 7milesup (Jun 5, 2022)

The box on the left looks like a breaker.  The box in the middle is just an on/off switch by the looks of it.  Like you said, it won't matter once you utilize the VFD.


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## 7milesup (Jun 5, 2022)

If you have not already watched these videos, I recommend doing so.  I found them rather informative.
These are from "That Lazy Machinist"










The next two are from Suburban Tool.


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## Brento (Jun 5, 2022)

7milesup said:


> The box on the left looks like a breaker.  The box in the middle is just an on/off switch by the looks of it.  Like you said, it won't matter once you utilize the VFD.


Box on the left is the in off switch. The middle panel is a fuse box that has the old barrel fuses in it and the box on the bottom right was what i was talking about. I have used a surface grinder before but ill check them out just bc it is nice to see what people suggest


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## Brento (Jun 5, 2022)

I will be dry grinding but some day in the future i think im going to set up a coolant version.  I want to make my own precision flat stones but that will have to wait for quite a while. I do need a new diamond wheel though bc the two i did get with it are clapped out I believe. I will probably  make a post soon about all of the wheels i got. Bc that is where i dont know anything


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## projectnut (Jun 5, 2022)

The box on the bottom rear corner looks like an older Phase a Matic static phase converter.  The plug looks like it's a single phase 220 volt.


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## Brento (Jun 5, 2022)

What would happen if you ran 3 phase on a single phase. And what would happen if you ran single phase on 3 phase


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## projectnut (Jun 8, 2022)

Brento said:


> Anyone with grinder experience can you tell me what type of dressing sticks i will need? I have quite a few diamonds but supposedly that is just for trueing a wheel and i need dressing sticks to dress a wheel after. This grind is coming with a Norton Brake Controller truing device.


If you're just getting into grinding, I would recommend the book "Grinding Technology" by S.F. Krar & J.W. Oswald.  I have the oldest edition printed in 1974.  It covers several types of grinding including surface grinding, cylindrical grinding, centerless grinding and tool and cutter grinding among others.  Chapter 17 concentrates on trueing and dressing wheels.  There are other chapters discussing wheel selection, mounting, and balancing.

I purchased mine about 10 years ago on eBay for less than $15.00.  There is currently one listed, but the asking price is outrageous.  They do pop up from time to time at online used bookstores in the $10.00 to $20.00 range.  There are several newer versions by the same author, but I;'m not sure they cover the same subjects.


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## Brento (Jun 8, 2022)

projectnut said:


> If you're just getting into grinding, I would recommend the book "Grinding Technology" by S.F. Krar & J.W. Oswald.  I have the oldest edition printed in 1974.  It covers several types of grinding including surface grinding, cylindrical grinding, centerless grinding and tool and cutter grinding among others.  Chapter 17 concentrates on trueing and dressing wheels.  There are other chapters discussing wheel selection, mounting, and balancing.
> 
> I purchased mine about 10 years ago on eBay for less than $15.00.  There is currently one listed, but the asking price is outrageous.  They do pop up from time to time at online used bookstores in the $10.00 to $20.00 range.  There are several newer versions by the same author, but I;'m not sure they cover the same subjects.


Ive used one before. Just never my own in my shop. When i was taught to dress them it was just a diamond. Never using a stick as well.


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## Brento (Jun 8, 2022)

Ive got my vfd in hand! Im going to start looking it over a little bit. Now can i make my own enclosure for this from like a 3d printer to keep it protected a little bit.  My next question is can i just wire 220 from my electrical panel to the vfd and then wire straight to the motor. I dont need all of the extra stuff that is in the book.


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## DavidR8 (Jun 9, 2022)

Brento said:


> Ive got my vfd in hand! Im going to start looking it over a little bit. Now can i make my own enclosure for this from like a 3d printer to keep it protected a little bit.  My next question is can i just wire 220 from my electrical panel to the vfd and then wire straight to the motor. I dont need all of the extra stuff that is in the book.


Which VFD did you get?
 That's how I did mine... I had 120v power so I just wired it to a plug for input power and then connected the three wires from the motor to the VFD. If the spindle turns the wrong direction swap any two of the motor wires.


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## Brento (Jun 9, 2022)

I got the Teco


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## DavidR8 (Jun 9, 2022)

If I recall correctly I think I only set the maximum frequency to 60hz so that there was no way to over speed the wheel. Other than that I didn’t change any settings.


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## Brento (Jun 9, 2022)

This is all new to me and i am far from good with electrical. Id pay someone to program it lol. All i would like is for it to run correctly and have a good 30 second slow start.


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## Ischgl99 (Jun 9, 2022)

Too bad this wasn’t a few days ago, I drove through Port Jervis on Monday on my way home from my niece’s wedding.

30 seconds is a really long ramp up time for a small motor, is there a particular reason you want that?  The Teco VFDs are easy to program, the only really important parameters are motor settings for rpm, hp, and amps so it runs properly.  If you want to use the grinder push buttons for control, then you will need to wire them to the inputs on the VFD and change the program to look for them for the run and stop signals.  Or, you can leave as is and use the VFD panel for starting and stopping.  Which Teco did you get?


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## Brento (Jun 9, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> Too bad this wasn’t a few days ago, I drove through Port Jervis on Monday on my way home from my niece’s wedding.
> 
> 30 seconds is a really long ramp up time for a small motor, is there a particular reason you want that?  The Teco VFDs are easy to program, the only really important parameters are motor settings for rpm, hp, and amps so it runs properly.  If you want to use the grinder push buttons for control, then you will need to wire them to the inputs on the VFD and change the program to look for them for the run and stop signals.  Or, you can leave as is and use the VFD panel for starting and stopping.  Which Teco did you get?


Thanks for the offer!  I wont get to wiring prob for  2 weeks atleast. I promised the wife to do stuff in her office. I got the Teco, L510-201-H1-U. I just figured 30 seconds was a good wind up is all. I am fine with using the vfd as the on and off. I just have to have it at a good spot to reach. It is a 1HP motor


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## Beckerkumm (Jun 9, 2022)

0-5 seconds would be my range.  There isn't much mass to the wheel and no need to ramp up.  Braking will be nice.  My wheel runs about a minute after power is shut off and that can be dangerous.  Dave


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## Ischgl99 (Jun 9, 2022)

I have the L510 on my mill, it has been great.  A couple seconds is plenty for starting the motor, you are going to go crazy waiting for it to spool up at 30 seconds.  These motors were designed for a full power start, so anything less than that is fine.  I think I have my mill set for 1 or 2 seconds and that has more inertia than your grinder.

Beckerkumm brings up a good point about how long it takes to come to a stop, my lathe and mill only take a few seconds to coast to stop, so with the grinder you might want add in a deceleration time to bring it to a stop quicker.  You don’t want to make it too quick otherwise the wheel might unscrew itself.


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## Brento (Jun 9, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> Too bad this wasn’t a few days ago, I drove through Port Jervis on Monday on my way home from my niece’s wedding.
> 
> 30 seconds is a really long ramp up time for a small motor, is there a particular reason you want that?  The Teco VFDs are easy to program, the only really important parameters are motor settings for rpm, hp, and amps so it runs properly.  If you want to use the grinder push buttons for control, then you will need to wire them to the inputs on the VFD and change the program to look for them for the run and stop signals.  Or, you can leave as is and use the VFD panel for starting and stopping.  Which Teco did you get?


Thanks for the offer!  I wont get to wiring prob for  2 weeks atleast. I promised the wife to do stuff in her office. I got the Teco, L510-201-H1-U. I just figured 30 seconds was a good wind up is all. I am fine with using the vfd as the on and off


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