# Monarch 612-2516 lathe



## rabler (Feb 27, 2021)

Hopefully Ok that I'm posting a bunch of different threads on different machines that I'm rebuilding.  I hope to make each thread sort of a running commentary, starting with when I acquired the machine,  on each machine but it'll take a while to get caught up to current status on each machine.

The Monarch CK taught me that I really enjoyed working on the older machines.  Now admittedly I have no clue what I'm doing but figuring it out is a big part of the fun.   After the CK and 10EE, I had lusted after a longer bed machine.  20" c-to-c on the 10EE, and 30" c-to-c on the CK, but some of the farm projects I envision could go quite a bit longer.  A Monarch 61 from the mid 50s was what I was looking for.  I'd been watching for one of those for a few years.  The good ones go extremely fast.

In that search I came across an ad on FB marketplace for a Monarch 612 for sale in NE Ohio, about 6 hours drive.  I made arrangements to go look at it with my trailer in tow.  I was given to believe it was a 16" swing machine with a 10HP motor, 50" center to center.  The typical Monarch serial number placard was a 'government sale' version so didn't have the usual swing and c-to-c length info in the ad's picture.

I drove up to NE Ohio and spent the night in a hotel with arrangements for the next morning.  Turned out to be this large machine old manual machine shop, bunch of hue lathes and a few mills, along with a huge heat-treat furnace.  They had found a problem with the lathe testing it out the day before and were working pretty intensively on fixing it.  The feed mechanism was not working in the apron, they had the apron off and were looking at swapping aprons with another lathe.

Three guys, including the shop owner, spent most of the morning working on the machine with no commitment from me other than to see how it worked out.  I did get to see the lathe running and everything working except for the feed.  They got the parts replaced and were working on reassembling, but it was nearing noon, and with a 6 hour drive plus an hour time change, I was getting concerned as driving pulling a 30' gooseneck after dark is not something I care to do.  I talked to the owner and we agreed on a _*substantial*_ price reduction for me to take it without the apron re-installed, but all parts and a three-jaw chuck. They also had all of the documentation for the lathe since it was originally sold by Monarch to a government contractor for $33,000 in 1967. With hotel and diesel fuel costs I got it for less than a 1/10th of that. The shop owner obviously felt bad that they'd spent my time working on it, and wanted to be sure I went away happy. Obviously someone who understands that his customers matter.




So upon getting home and really looking at the documentation, etc, it was clear this was a Monarch 612-2516.  25" swing over bed, 16" swing over carriage, 48" center to center.  20HP motor, everything wired 440v.  Actually a total of four three-phase motors, main drive motor, rapid traverse motor, hydraulic pump motor, and coolant pump.




Estimated weight is about 9000 lbs, documented weight is nearly 12000 but that included a no-longer present tracer bed along the back.  I built myself a large gantry to unload this.  Even though the crane was engineered, hoisting anything that heavy is nerve wracking to say the least.  Note that the carriage apron and tailstock, at least 1000lbs worth, where removed prior to hoisting to reduce the weight.  (Overhead lifting equiment should be engineered with a 5x safety factor.)


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## erikmannie (Feb 27, 2021)

That looks a lot like what Abom79 has. Monarchs are sweet! You got a screamin’ deal on it, too.

I have a lot of respect for you for taking on a project like this. I am sure that you will be successful.


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## rabler (Feb 27, 2021)

I believe Abom79's is a  1940's CY, which is fairly similar to the 44 CK I have posted on in another thread, although his is definitely a bigger swing lathe.


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## rabler (Feb 27, 2021)

So after getting the 612 lowered to the floor, put on skates, moved across the garage to one side, I needed to start working with it.  It came with a 20HP main motor.  As far as I'm concerned, 20HP is a RIDICULOUS amount of horsepower for a lathe.  A little bit of pondering I decided to use the 20HP motor to build an rotary phase converter, and I bought a new-old-stock 10HP motor to put in the lathe.  That required spacers to account for the smaller frame size on the 10HP.  The 20HP is a 1 5/8" shaft, the 10HP is 1 3/8" shaft, so the original pulley would not fit on the 10HP.  I purchased a 1 3/8" taper bushing from McMaster.   On the CK used a test indicator to get the taper attachment to exactly match that bushing, when bored out the pulley so the taper bushing fit in appropriately.  Then I needed to drill and tap three holes in the pulley on the mill.  Unfortunately the VFD on the mill died so I had to wait for a new VFD.  Grizzly had one in stock, but wanted over $950.  I could get a new VFD for about $400 but a couple weeks for drop ship from the factory.  Anyway, I eventually got it fixed and the bushing matched to the pulley.


While waiting for all of that to work out, I started cleaning and painting the lathe, and putting together an RPC.  I bought a 20HP phase converter control panel from WNY, and welded together a frame to hold all that.








I needed to rewire everything from 440V to 220V.  Fairly large electrical control box on the back of this lathe: on/off switch on the top right, along with separate forward and reverse contactors on the top.  Below those contactors, in the center of the panel is a loop transformer for the load meter on the front panel.  To the right of that is the 120V step down transformer for the controls and contactor coils.  Below that are contactors for the other motors.  The other motors include a rapid traverse motor for the carriage, and a hydraulic/lubricant pump motor. 

My thought for the ideal model large Monarch is a series 61, the predecessor to the 612.  The 612 uses a hydraulic transmission, so speeds are all set by one dial, and feeds/threading by another dial.  I'm a bit nervous about the 612 transmission, as long as it works all is good, but my understanding is they are fairly complex to troubleshoot.  The pump for the hydraulic/lubricant system runs on it's own 1/3 HP 3 phase motor.  That needed to be rewired to 220V.  Same for the rapid traverse motor.  Both of those motors live in the lathe base below the headstock.  The way the lathe is wired, if the heater/starter/overload for either of those motors or the main motor kicks out, then the lathe shuts down completely.  (I do have a complete set of schematics).


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## rabler (Feb 27, 2021)

Rewiring the three motors was just a matter of opening up all three motors and following the wiring diagrams.  Interesting bit of trivia, is that one of the three motors was a Y-connected 3 phase while the other two were delta.  Fortunately all the wiring labels were legible.  It was just tedious getting in there, the traverse motor is behind the main motor in the headstock (fortunately I did this while the main motor was out).  The coolant pump motor is in the front of the headstock base.

The control panel took a bit more consideration.  All of the contactors use 120V coils.  Fortunately the step-down transformer for that was strappable between 440V and 220V.   The motor overloads (starters) are based on current.  Re-wiring from 440V to 220V (halfing the voltage) means the current needs to double to get the same horsepower.  Since I replaced the main motor with a motor of 1/2 the horsepower rating (20HP to 10HP), the main motor starter is about the right current.  The original starters have +/- 15% adjustment range on them, so I can do some tweaking if I get compulsive.  The current for the other two motors, traverse and lube pump, doubles.  So those will need new overload relays.

I ordered out a couple of new overload relays, of course I hit a month long backorder.  I ordered WEG overloads from MarshallWolfAutomation, total of about $60, for which I figured it wasn't worth trying to find original equipment.

In the mean time, I got the RPC built:



It is wired in to the main breaker panel using 2/0 aluminum wire into a 100A breaker.  For now this lathe is in my garage (not my workshop).  The garage is actually a 1/4mile down the road from the house by the horse barns.  Those all run on a separate 200A service from the house and workshop.

Once wired in, I tested the RPC.  It draws 205 amps peak at startup (obviously for a very short duration as it doesn't trip the 100A breaker).  Once running with no load it draws about 9a.     My garage runs a little high on voltage, around 245V.    9a * 245v / 746 = 2.96HP, so the idler motor is using about 3 horsepower equivalent of electricity with no load.  I was actually surprised that it wasn't more, electric motors often run around 40% current for no load.  I wasn't measuring phase angle (power factor) for those that really want to geek-out.

I went ahead and wired the lathe into the RPC even though the replacement starters for the two motors haven't yet arrived.  I left the belts disconnected from the main motor and hit the Forward button.  Sure enough it all fired up and ran for about 30 seconds and the the traverse motor heater/overload popped.  Still nice to see all the motors at least spin up.  I don't yet know whether they are wired in the correct direction, who wants to bet how many of them need a lead swap?  Fortunately that's pretty easy to do up in the electrical panel.

I've also got the lathe mostly repainted (the blue color you see on the chip pan above).  Still need to re-install the apron.  I'm hoping to have an operating lathe at that point without any major rebuild work, although experience says I should soon at least clean the oil lines in the apron/carriage.


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## rabler (Mar 1, 2021)

Here's a picture of the current state of the 612 as of 3/1/2021.  Painting in progress.  Still waiting on the overload relays (heaters).  The open door under the headstock is the hydraulic/lube reservoir, filter and pump.   Apron is still not installed.
The current chuck is a 12" 3 jaw.  I'm keeping my eyes out for a  used 16 or 20" D1-6  4-jaw, ideally one that has T-slots.  Probably have to by a plain chuck and turn a D1-6 plate.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 1, 2021)

Looking good.


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## rabler (Mar 21, 2021)

Progress on the big beast continues.  I received the new overload relays (heaters) for the 220V conversion of the rapid traverse motor and the hydraulic pump.  These have been wired in.



The hydraulic pump doesn’t seem to be pumping, probably turning the wrong way.  This turned out to be fortunate, as the return hose had come off.  If it had actually worked I’d probably be mopping up quite a bit of oil.  The pump, motor and reservoir is mounted to the inside of the door below the headstock on the front of the lathe.  Apparently some one had trimmed the return hose short enough that opening the door was enough to pull the hose off the elbow on top of the tank.



So I’m waiting for a new hose from McMaster.

I did get the RPC wired up, through a three phase panel nd a couple of twist-lock L15-30 outlets.  Sorry this is rotated 90.  Dang iPhone.  The yellow and black thing on the front of the rotary panel is a magnetic light, illuminates the Monarch’s electric panel on the back of the lathe.




Still need to clean up the apron, paint it, and hang it on the carriage.  Not planning on disassembling it for now, so this is a cosmetic not functional issue.


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## rabler (Mar 24, 2021)

Haven’t mounted the apron yet, but the spindle turned under power yesterday, both forward and reverse. Hydraulic gear shifting worked well. Given that getting this far involved swapping out the main motor, rewiring three motors for 220V from 440V, and building a rotary phase converter, as well as cleaning and painting, that felt like a significant milestone.


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## rabler (Mar 26, 2021)

Looks like I'll be pulling the QCGB unfortunately.  While the end gears are turning, nothing I can do on the settings gets the feed rod or leadscrew turning.  It worked a couple times erratically.  So goes the challenges of resurrecting old equipment.  The QCGB on this thing is a beast, I wouldn't be surprised if it is 400 lbs.  I've pulled the cover off to look inside and will probably trying pulling the faceplate too.  But I suspect I'm going to need to be removing it completely to chase down the problem.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 26, 2021)

You have probably already check this, but there is usually a shear pin that locks the Lead Screw to the gear box. They are the weak link to protect the gears incase something is jammed.


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## macardoso (Mar 26, 2021)

rabler said:


> Hopefully Ok that I'm posting a bunch of different threads on different machines that I'm rebuilding.  I hope to make each thread sort of a running commentary, starting with when I acquired the machine,  on each machine but it'll take a while to get caught up to current status on each machine.
> 
> The Monarch CK taught me that I really enjoyed working on the older machines.  Now admittedly I have no clue what I'm doing but figuring it out is a big part of the fun.   After the CK and 10EE, I had lusted after a longer bed machine.  20" c-to-c on the 10EE, and 30" c-to-c on the CK, but some of the farm projects I envision could go quite a bit longer.  A Monarch 61 from the mid 50s was what I was looking for.  I'd been watching for one of those for a few years.  The good ones go extremely fast.
> 
> ...



You are seriously moving out of the *Hobby* Machinist realm  What a beast though, that is going to be fun to work on. I'll be interested to see what you do to deal with the 440V 3P power requirements.

EDIT: Thought this was a brand new post and didn't read far enough to see your rewiring comments. Looking great!


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## rabler (Mar 26, 2021)

macardoso said:


> You are seriously moving out of the *Hobby* Machinist realm  What a beast though, that is going to be fun to work on. I'll be interested to see what you do to deal with the 440V 3P power requirements.
> 
> EDIT: Thought this was a brand new post and didn't read far enough to see your rewiring comments. Looking great!


Well, it isn't CNC, so I figured it must be a hobbyist tool ...


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## rabler (Mar 26, 2021)

Well I found the problem. Obviously it had cracked off before and someone had tried to pin and tack braze it into place but it didn't hold up. I guess this has to be expected for 54 year old lathe that would only find use in a heavy industrial setting.   Now I need to find a solution.  I can either machine off the top and build a new part to bolt on top to replace the cracked off piece of casting, or find a second hand part.


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## Papa Charlie (Mar 27, 2021)

That can be fixed by silver soldered. If you have the part that came off, it can be soldered back on and then rebore the openings or build up with silver solder and machine the openings.

I have done this in the past. Watching Abom79 there are some new silver solders out there I have seen him do repairs with that were very good performers.

Here is an example:


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## rabler (Mar 27, 2021)

Hadn't thought about silver solder but that does sound feasible. I do have the part that came off.  But I also have a possible used replacement that I'm investigating.


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## Janderso (Mar 27, 2021)

That’s a common problem.
There is a video out there where a guy did a beautiful job of repairing the part by brazing it properly


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## rabler (Mar 27, 2021)

Janderso said:


> That’s a common problem.
> There is a video out there where a guy did a beautiful job of repairing the part by brazing it properly


I think whoever tried to repair this originally tried to do some braze tacks without removing it from the machine.  They obviously also drilled 4 or 5 holes and stuck roll pins through.  The whole thing is quite a mess.  

I have both TIG and oxy-acetylene and don't mind using those.  Also a small oven for preheat, and I'd set up a bucket of sand/lime to cool it in properly.  Just several chips broken out of the cracked off piece given the drill holes, so if I can find a replacement I'd call that a win.


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## NCjeeper (Mar 27, 2021)

I wonder if Monarch might have that part in their inventory? I have been able to get a few thing from them for my Monarch.


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## rabler (Mar 27, 2021)

NCjeeper said:


> I wonder if Monarch might have that part in their inventory? I have been able to get a few thing from them for my Monarch.


If the person I am in touch with doesn't pan out, I'll check with them beginning of next week.


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## rabler (Mar 27, 2021)

Looks like I have a line on a compatible part from someone out of California that is parting out a Monarch 61.


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## rabler (Apr 10, 2021)

Got a replacement part (tumbler) from someone in California parting out a 61.  I'm going to have to pull the QCGB off the lathe to actually do the replacement.  Good thing I didn't bother putting the apron on yet.    Now that the K&T is moved out of the way I can get the gantry over the QCGB to hoist it off, so disassembly can begin.  I'll check the angular contact bearings on the various apron shafts while I'm in there, and the bearings on the shaft that holds the tumbler, other than that I'm not going to do a full teardown on the QCGB.


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## Papa Charlie (Apr 10, 2021)

rabler said:


> Got a replacement part (tumbler) from someone in California parting out a 61.  I'm going to have to pull the QCGB off the lathe to actually do the replacement.  Good thing I didn't bother putting the apron on yet.    Now that the K&T is moved out of the way I can get the gantry over the QCGB to hoist it off, so disassembly can begin.  I'll check the angular contact bearings on the various apron shafts while I'm in there, and the bearings on the shaft that holds the tumbler, other than that I'm not going to do a full teardown on the QCGB.



Wasn't the seller working on trying to get the carriage to move when you picked this unit up? Now we know why it wasn't working.


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## rabler (Apr 11, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> Wasn't the seller working on trying to get the carriage to move when you picked this unit up? Now we know why it wasn't working.


Close, that problem was a stripped apron nut on the feedrod, clearly at that time the feed rod was turning but the carriage stopped under cutting  load.  This problem means the feedrod or leadscrew wouldn’t turn at all.  Obviously you hope to not see a chain of problems like this, so I’m hoping this is the last issue in getting it operational.  But with equipment more than 50 years old there is some degree of gamble with any such purchase, even with a good (expert) inspection.  I’ve learned enough to be able to spot worn ways or excessive backlash but I’m still learning.


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## rabler (Apr 28, 2021)

Finally got this monster of a QCGB off.  Turned into a hassle.  Two shafts go under the headstock from the qcgb, one is for the clutch, the other is for the rapid traverse.  They both are keyed off a coupling that should just slide off, but the clutch rod was bound up and took a lot of persuasion.  Now I need to get the tumbler out, some disassembly required.


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## extropic (Apr 28, 2021)

I'm curious what you think was the cause of the clutch shaft being so hard to separate?
A picture is worth . . .

Those sorts of details are helpful to teach us pilgrims what to look for if ever venturing into similar territory.


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## rabler (Apr 28, 2021)

extropic said:


> I'm curious what you think was the cause of the clutch shaft being so hard to separate?
> A picture is worth . . .
> 
> Those sorts of details are helpful to teach us pilgrims what to look for if ever venturing into similar territory.


Several things made it complicated.
One is that it is just a huge gearbox, maybe 400lbs or more.  So maneuvering it requires a hoist/crane.  My gantry crane is big (I used it to pick up the entire lathe, at least 8000 lbs worth).  Space is limited.   Finding a place to connect the hoist so that the gearbox lifts without twisting or rolling took lots of fooling around.

Two is that I haven’t removed this gearbox before.  No instructions beyond some exploded parts diagrams.  So lots of guessing involved.  I knew all the apron shafts had to come out.  There is also a plate on the gearbox that faces the apron holding the end of all those shafts.  Apron shafts off first.  Tried to take that plate off, but as I feared it has capscrews that aren’t accessible until the gearbox is pulled forwrd a few inches.

The gearbox wraps around the left side if the headstock, so pulling forward seems obvious.  But the gearbox needs to be lifted up 1/2” to clear a lip going forward.  That lip acts as an oilpan under the gearbox.

Going forward causes the left side wrap around to catch on a shaft stub for the banjo gears going from the headstock to the gearbox, wgich requires going left.

The shafts should slide out of the couplings if the gearbox goes straight forward away from the headstock.  But between not knowing the issues and procedures, I was sort of trying random things.

Rather than getting too aggravated I worked on this a bit at a time, over about a week.

Monarch likes to build things to tight tolerances.  There is basically a stub shaft coming out of the back of the gearbox, into a coupling, which joins to a longer shaft going under the headstock.  That coupling has a roll pin connecting it to the longer shaft.  A 5lb hammer would not drive that rollpin out.  It is a bit beat up.  And the coupling is also under some torque/tension from earlier attempts.  So lots of attempts to tap out that roll pin failed.  Turns out roll pins are also pretty hard.  It wouldn’t drill out.  Both drilling and tapping in limited space, a few inches between the gearbox and headstock.  My concern was bending one of those shafts, or damaging bearings by tapping too hard.

So, lots of little things on top of the huge mass of this beast.

The offending coupling shows up on the right lower  side of the gearbox here.  The end of other coupling from the rapids can just be seen.


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## extropic (Apr 29, 2021)

When you say "roll pin", is that a "C" cross section (McMaster calls them "Slotted Spring Pins") or the wound spiral sheet metal type 
(McMaster calls them "Coiled Spring Pins")?

Thanks so much for the excellent explanation. It really adds to the education value, for me anyway.

It sounds like a heavy (dangerous) Chinese Puzzle solution, then to find an uncooperative pin.

PS: I recently disassembled (for thorough cleaning) a piece of tooling that used a pin in a way I hadn't seen before.
I took a good look, before pounding, because I didn't know what type of pin it was going to be. I didn't want to be pounding on the fat end of a taper pin. It didn't seem to be a taper pin. I thought a 3/32" pin punch would do it but a couple of appropriate raps didn't get me very far. I switched to 1/16" pin punch and Voilà.
The hole (about 1/16" diameter) was through the part and countersunk (about 1/8" diameter) at both external surfaces.
The pin is soft steel (about 1/16" diameter) and was lightly peened into the countersinks on both ends to retain.


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## Papa Charlie (Apr 29, 2021)

It is always fun to break down a piece of equipment that 1) you are not familiar with, 2) have no manual, 3) and have limited information available.

You seem to have the right mind set. When doing this kind of work it is so easy to overlook a connection, obstacle, etc and because of the weight of the pieces, cause serious damage to a component(s). Taking your time and reviewing the situation multiple times is the way to go. Getting in a hurry will only serve to complicate the project. I am sure over that week, even though you were not face to face with the lathe, you were thinking through different scenarios and options.

Nice work in getting that apart.


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## kb58 (Apr 29, 2021)

A question, how did you support that beast when lifting it. In the one picture, it's doesn't look like it was supported at the time.

Your project reminds me of the local antique tractor association. Part of the deal is that you join and "adopt" one of the sad old lumps, restoring into like-new condition. Your situation is like what I heard someone there saying about adopting a bulldozer, "It was fun restoring it, but it's a real pain because every single part coming off it required a hoist of some sort."


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## rabler (Apr 29, 2021)

extropic said:


> When you say "roll pin", is that a "C" cross section (McMaster calls them "Slotted Spring Pins") or the wound spiral sheet metal type
> (McMaster calls them "Coiled Spring Pins")?


What McMaster calls a slotted spring pin.


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## rabler (Apr 29, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> It is always fun to break down a piece of equipment that 1) you are not familiar with, 2) have no manual, 3) and have limited information available.
> 
> You seem to have the right mind set. When doing this kind of work it is so easy to overlook a connection, obstacle, etc and because of the weight of the pieces, cause serious damage to a component(s). Taking your time and reviewing the situation multiple times is the way to go. Getting in a hurry will only serve to complicate the project. I am sure over that week, even though you were not face to face with the lathe, you were thinking through different scenarios and options.
> 
> Nice work in getting that apart.



I recently put together a new gas barbecue grill.   It had over 40 steps, each step a page with detailed illustrations.  I found that annoying, I think it just insulted my intelligence.

Taking time is absolutely critical. I certainly couldn’t have done this before retiring.  Lots of cellphone pictures also help with reassembly.


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## rabler (Apr 29, 2021)

kb58 said:


> A question, how did you support that beast when lifting it. In the one picture, it's doesn't look like it was supported at the time.
> 
> Your project reminds me of the local antique tractor association. Part of the deal is that you join and "adopt" one of the sad old lumps, restoring into like-new condition. Your situation is like what I heard someone there saying about adopting a bulldozer, "It was fun restoring it, but it's a real pain because every single part coming off it required a hoist of some sort."


The red and black strap is a light-duty ratchet strap, wrapped around 3 times.  It was small enough to get into odd holes in the casting, necessary to lift it from a balance point.  Just above the top of the picture it goes around a large hoist hook.

What isn’t intuitive is how much we count on the feel of moving things by hand.  As soon as a hoist is involved that is lost.  You can make up for it partially by paying very close attention to how things move, manually wiggling things, etc.


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## rabler (May 1, 2021)

Cleaned up the shelf where the QCGB sat, and slapped a coat of light blue on it.  The light blue is a reject color, something I use on interior and other not often seen areas that I want clean and painted but not visible.  Note the box of ziploc bags on top of the headstock.  Those, along with a sharpie, and cellphone camera, are critical tools in keeping track of what parts went where.



The broken tumbler of course has a shaft through it, with three bearings on that shaft.  I prefer not to drive things out with a hammer if at all avoidable, so you can see the solution I came up with.  The first picture is the apron face of the QCGB, with the circular bearing plate held by 4 capscrews, covering the end of the shaft in the lower middle.  The second pictures is a quick tool I drilled up that has a hole in the center tapped for a 1/2" bolt that I used to press the shaft out.  Turns out a 8" carriage bolt was what I happened to have lying around that worked.




I got the shaft pressed over about two inches, enough that the bearings on either end are free, but the bearing in the middle is pressing the outer race out too.  It feels like it is binding now that the shaft is free of the ends and only held by this last bearing.  These are tapered roller bearings, so the two ends come out easily, the center is facing the other direction and so that whole bearing needs to be pressed out with the shaft. I'm leaving it for another day.  It was lunch time anyway  Probably get in there with a brass hammer and brass punch to tap around the outer race and try to free it up. That race is behind the crossweb in the casting on the left of center.


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## rabler (May 2, 2021)

Well, it's not the center race binding, there is a gear on another shaft that is interfering with that bearing being pushed out by a tenth of an inch or so.  So this job just got a lot more complicated, as it means more disassembly.   I've pulled the gearbox apart on my CK, and while a different scale the design has some commonality.  

Interesting side note - in the last picture above, the small gear prominent just right of center that is brownish, is not rusted.  It appears to be phenolic.  I think it's purpose is to pick up oil from the bottom of the gearbox and lubricate the gear above it.


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## rabler (May 3, 2021)

Success!  I got the tumbler out.   I'm feeling a bit better as this, plus the 10EE motor issues , were getting a bit frustrating.

Started to pull out the other shafts, then had an inspiration after I'd already shifted one of the other shafts a tenth of an inch or so.  One the shaft with the tumbler, the left side of the shaft is a larger diameter than through the tumbler.   So the tumbler has to come off the right side of the shaft.  Which lead me to try to initially drive the shaft left.  When doing so the center roller bearing hung up.  But if I drove the shaft initially right, it would unseat that bearing race.  And then I could remove the circlip next to the bearing, and then drive the shaft left.  That worked, and the tumbler is out.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








With the two tumblers side by side, the only difference appears to be that the back of the tumbler has a roughly machined radius whereas the replacement tumbler is an unfinished casting. Given how this seats on the mechanism that shifts the tumbler left/right, I may have to mill this smooth. The replacement tumbler also has bushing set in the casting, where the original was just bored to diameter, but same inner diameter.


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## rabler (May 12, 2021)

To smooth out the tumbler, I wanted to set it up on my rotary table, but is isn't flat on the side (rough casting).  So I made up a bushing with an MT2 taper on one end, and a 1.25" stub on the other, to hold the tumbler on the table.

Turning the bushing was a good workout for the CK lathe.  I started with a 3" diameter chunk of hot rolled round, chucked up in the three jaw and turned all in one operation to keep concentricity.   I used the taper attachment to turn the MT2 taper.  Then when to work on making the 1.250" shaft stub.  Got a chance to see how much the CK could hog off in one pass, as turning 3" down to 1.250 for a 2.75" length was a bit of steel to remove.  Had it working enough the the inverter duty motor was not happy at 1200RPM (45Hz) and cranked it up to 1800 (60Hz) with the spindle shift to a lower gear to get more torque at the same spindle speed.  Using a WNMG insert for much of it.



This really isn't a precision part on the tumbler, it just sits in a cradle at the shaft end that it had to clear.  I only needed to mill .025 off the casting, which is just enough to not get below the hard face of the casting.  You can see the milling really is rough.  Table has too much play in it.  I did have a clamp on it when milling, this picture was a photographic  re-creation.

I just need to finish the K&T vertical and use the 16" rotary on that, will be much nicer setup.



The gearbox has been assembled with the new tumbler in place.  Now I just need to mount it back on the lathe, although it needs a bit of cleaning before that.


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## rabler (May 13, 2021)

Useful trick for flushing out things without full disassembly.  $15 1 gallon lawn sprayer from any hardware/box store, and a 1/2 gallon of diesel fuel.  Pretty good pressure, and while diesel fuel isn't the best smelling thing in the world, not as harsh as a lot of cleaners such as brake cleaner.


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## rabler (Jul 26, 2021)

Well several things have come up so progress on this project took a two month vacation.  Had to take a month for medical issues, four years after radiation treatment some odd side effects showed up, late radiation cystitis.  Series of tests and procedures to rule out more severe issues.  And the normal summer backlog of chores, horses hooves grow faster so more hoof trimming.  Grass grows so more mowing.  I’m trying to mow enough to discourage johnson grass from the fields.  Fences to fix and yardwork.  Maintenance on pickups, and farm equipment.  And somei intensive remodeling.

Not all chores, as I did some work on building a diamond lapping machine too.

I’m starting to spend an hour or so here and there bck working on this lathe.  Got the QCGB bolted back up, and the end gears re-installed.  Next I’ll attach the rod to the back of the headstock for the clutch and the rapids drive motor.


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## Papa Charlie (Jul 26, 2021)

Life too often gets in the way of our projects, but that is just life. Happens way too many times.


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## Janderso (Jul 27, 2021)

rabler said:


> bck working on this lathe


How did you make out with the cast iron repair? That looked like a real mess.


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## rabler (Jul 27, 2021)

I found a replacement part, turns out it is close enough to a Monarch 61 so I could use a part from there.  Someone on PM pointed me to one that was being parted out.  If you look back a few posts there is a picture where I machined it a bit on the rotary table.


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## rabler (Jul 28, 2021)

The QCGB is mounted on the lathe.  Oil lines reattached.  End gears reinstalled.  While it is off in the picture below, I have the faceplate for the tumbler reinstalled.   The lathe has a clutch rod (like many Monarchs) and you can work the clutch from the side of the QCGB or from the side of the apron (two levers).  The plate on the apron side of the lathe has bevel gears so that clutch rod turns a shaft which goes under the headstock.

There is small casting that bolts on under the end gears not yet installed.  It directs the drip oil from the end gears and out of the QCGB back into the hydraulic oil reservoir, through the hole in the lower left in the picture.




This particular lathe also has the 'rapid traverse' option, controls on the apron that engage with a motor driven shaft that will move the carriage or crossfeed quickly for rough positioning.  That rapid traverse motor lives under the back side of the headstock, and similar to the clutch has a rod that goes under the headstock to the QCGB, through bevel gears, and then out along an apron rod.  I still need to reconnect both of these to the QCGB.   The rapid traverse motor runs continuously whenever the main motor runs, the apron has controls (clutches) to engage/disengage it.



In total this thing has three motors, all of them three phase.  Hydraulic/lube pump is the third.  A VFD would therefore not be a realistic option for converting it to single phase operation.

Slowly putting this thing back together.  Right now the apron is not bolted up to the carriage.  I have to decide how much cleaning and inspection I want to do on the apron and carriage before reassembling all of that.  The lubrication system in there is pretty critical to the longevity of the ways.


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## extropic (Jul 28, 2021)

I appreciate the time you take to explain the special features of the lathe, like the dual control levers for the clutch as well as the motor driven rapids. I don't recall if you ever ask any questions but you're certainly adding to the collective knowledge.

Thanks for posting when you can.


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## rabler (Jul 28, 2021)

extropic said:


> I appreciate the time you take to explain the special features of the lathe, like the dual control levers for the clutch as well as the motor driven rapids. I don't recall if you ever ask any questions but you're certainly adding to the collective knowledge.
> 
> Thanks for posting when you can.


I enjoy sharing my progress.  I’m just plowing ahead, sometimes stumbling along, othertimes taking a break when frustrated or lost or other things arise.


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## rabler (Jul 28, 2021)

Got the clutch rod and rapid drive motor reconnected.  I’ll leave the covers off as I’ll probably need to adjust the clutch travel.  The rapid motor also has a reduction worm gear that I would like to flush and refill with fresh oil.

The large vertical cabinet on the right is the electrical cabinet.


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## Papa Charlie (Jul 29, 2021)

Watching these threads regarding Monarch lathes, it amazes me the quality and well thought out design of the Monarch lathes. 

A Monarch is definitely on my bucket list.


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> Watching these threads regarding Monarch lathes, it amazes me the quality and well thought out design of the Monarch lathes.
> 
> A Monarch is definitely on my bucket list.


I guess I'm a Monarch junkie.  They are solidly built machines, but they do have some complexity to them that means fixing/maintaining them isn't trivial.

FWIW, my wife can't keep the model numbers straight 10EE vs 12CK vs 612-2516.  Not that I blame her - too many models.  She's awfully tolerant of my addiction.  Anyway,  we call this one "Papa Bear", the 12CK "Mama bear", and the 10EE "Baby bear".


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2021)

The QCGB is back on, headstock end pretty much buttoned up.



I was test running it after that and at 1500 RPM the 30A breaker popped.  No load.  I suspect I will need to do some balancing on my RPC.  Need to install the volt-amp meters on the RPC ...   I'll also replace the 30A with a 40A.


Of course, there is quite a bit more work to do on this before it is a functional lathe.  The apron is still not installed.  While it is off I want to flush it out, clean off the outside, and remove the oil pump for cleaning and new filters.  The apron alone on this beast (not the full carriage), probably weighs 400 lbs, almost as much as my first 10x22 lathe.




Along the way the apron and carriage will get painted blue to match the rest of the lathe.  I'll need to pull the cover off the QCGB to put the threading leadscrew back on.  It has 4 shafts on the apron, threading leadscrew, feed rod, rapid traverse drive rod, and clutch control.  I put the clutch rod back in temporarily to test the headstock/QCGB.  Just a taper pin at the QCGB end, and a bushing that slides into the support at the tailstock end.




Putting the cart before the horse, I'm thinking about a QCTP for this, as well as a 4 jaw chuck.
It is close to 3" from compound base to centerline, so I'll need a DA sized toolpost.  $$$
I'd like to get a forged steel 4 jaw 16" chuck.  (612-2516, 25" swing, 16" over the carriage).  More $$$
Probably be looking on ebay for used(?).


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2021)

Looks like about a $1000 for a new DA toolpost (Shars/Travers/MSC).
About twice that for a Bison 16" 4 jaw.
That will about double what I have into this lathe to date.


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## FOMOGO (Aug 5, 2021)

Even if you end up buying a new tool post and chuck, still pretty reasonable for a machine of that size and quality. I was watching a video yesterday about a used machine tool company that had a huge collection of chucks and everything else under the sun for larger machines. Will grab the info when I get back up to the house, and PM it to you. Mike


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> Even if you end up buying a new tool post and chuck, still pretty reasonable for a machine of that size and quality. I was watching a video yesterday about a used machine tool company that had a huge collection of chucks and everything else under the sun for larger machines. Will grab the info when I get back up to the house, and PM it to you. Mike


I can certainly get away with using the 4-way post that is on there for a while, and first accumulate some 1.25" shank insert holders, and boring bars.  The 4 jaw is a more pressing need.  I'm hoping to make a road trip to HGR in the Cleveland area before long although I keep running into challenges with making that trip, 6-7 hours so probably an overnight for me.  I'd appreciate any other possible sources.

Yes, it was a good price for a big machine.  Plenty of time so far into getting it running so there is some value to that.  I'm eager to take some cuts with it, but hard to do that without a apron, lol.   And I'd prefer to do it right the first time, at least to the best of my ability.


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## FOMOGO (Aug 5, 2021)

Here is that contact info, D&D machine tool parts two81three51nine983. Good hunting, Mike


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 6, 2021)

I have talked with this auction house several times. They are located I believe not too far from you and I think they have multiple locations.
They have equipment other than in their auctions and also do searches for people. 






						Home
					

Machinesused.com Buys, Sells, Consigns & Online Auctions Used Machinery. Easily Get A Quote On A Used Machine Or View Our Next Online Auction!



					www.machinesused.com


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## rabler (Aug 6, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> I have talked with this auction house several times. They are located I believe not too far from you and I think they have multiple locations.
> They have equipment other than in their auctions and also do searches for people.
> 
> 
> ...


@FOMOGO, @Papa Charlie, 
I really appreciate all the suggestions.  But the Minneapolis area is about 10 hours driving, a bit too far for me for most acquisitions.  HGR in Cleveland Ohio is about 7 hours, which is pushing how far I'm willing to drive (i.e., one night in a hotel) in a day unless my wife accompanies me.  Which is not really interesting for her for machine tools, although I did drag her and a friend along on the last trip to Milwaukee for the Thompson surface grinder.   I was also  just in Atlanta last weekend with wife and a friend to clean out the last of my office stuff after retiring three years ago, which shot last weekend.  Picking up hay this weekend, brother and niece coming end of the month.  How does retirement looks so busy?!

 St. Louis, Nashville, Indianapolis, and Louisville are all reasonable, i.e., about 4 hours.   There are a couple of dealers in Louisville that I will probably search when the time comes.  Shipping is obviously an option, but that means buying sight unseen.

I haven't completely ruled out new either.  Depends on how I feel about the machine once I get everything else squared away.  Big one standing between now and then is plans to build a new shop this fall, finances permitting (or should I say lumber prices!).  40x56.  I need at least another two loads of crusher run to level the base, which will happen in the next few weeks.  Lumber prices have come down a bit on the sawmill side, but the price hasn't trickled down to the lumber yard yet.  I'm not expecting it to come down as low as it was a couple years ago, but as you might guess the prices shot up a lot faster than they go down as the supply/demand currently favors the lumber yards for now.


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 7, 2021)

Some of these outlets will ship. It may be another option, although I would understand if you want to see and touch it before you drop cash. I feel the same way.


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## rabler (Aug 7, 2021)

I took a chance on a used 12” D1-6 faceplate recently off ebay.  Fedex LTL claimed it was damaged in shipping due to bad packaging and undeliverable.  Seller refunded all funds, but still a waste of my time. 

Given the hazards of a hidden crack in a large chuck, I’m leaning toward a new bison or tmx.  I’ll keep my eye out for the toolpost used. But as I mentioned above, long term given a new shop is ahead of all this in the queue.


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## DAM 79 (Aug 7, 2021)

Rabler have you check out Lost Creek Machine he has a good selection of things on his website and prices are reasonable I’ve purchased parts and tools and have never been disappointed and what’s on the website is a fraction of what is really there you just have to call them and talk they always been helpful . They did have a DA size tool post for sale a while back and it went for $500 I think with some holders there inventory is always changing


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## rabler (Aug 7, 2021)

DAM 79 said:


> Rabler have you check out Lost Creek Machine he has a good selection of things on his website and prices are reasonable I’ve purchased parts and tools and have never been disappointed and what’s on the website is a fraction of what is really there you just have to call them and talk they always been helpful . They did have a DA size tool post for sale a while back and it went for $500 I think with some holders there inventory is always changing


From their website, that place looks dangerous.  I like it, and at 4 1/2 hours, that is not out of the question for a round trip in a day.


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## rabler (Aug 7, 2021)

As someone on another forum pointed out, I can use a CA post with a spacer under it.  Why didn’t I think of that?  I’m not intent on winning any heavy metal hogging competition so a CA post will save me some money, especially as I try to accumulate toolholders, etc.


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## DAM 79 (Aug 8, 2021)

rabler said:


> As someone on another forum pointed out, I can use a CA post with a spacer under it.  Why didn’t I think of that?  I’m not intent on winning any heavy metal hogging competition so a CA post will save me some money, especially as I try to accumulate toolholders, etc.


The CA tool holders are not cheap even the used ones can be pricy that’s what I run on both my Monarchs


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## rabler (Aug 8, 2021)

DAM 79 said:


> The CA tool holders are not cheap even the used ones can be pricy that’s what I run on both my Monarchs


Have you posted any details on your Monarchs?  Pictures?  Inquiring readers want to know!


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## DAM 79 (Aug 8, 2021)

rabler said:


> Have you posted any details on your Monarchs?  Pictures?  Inquiring readers want to know!


So actually I will do that soon I’ve been sick here lately with a bacterial infection. At least I didn’t have Covid but it was a pain either way with how things are now in the medical system but I did some work on my 16 CY because I was lucky to find a donor lathe at the Junkyard of all places and if it wasn’t so beat up I would of taking in home and still might just for parts if anyone is looking


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## rabler (Aug 12, 2021)

Small steps.  Got the oil pump out of the apron, replaced the felt filter in the bottom of the pump.  The one that was in there was soaked through and covered with a layer of sludge. I had a sheet of felt that I had ordered from McMasterr some time ago.  I just cut a circle with a utility knife.  The pump has three layers of screening, a piece of felt at the bottom, a fine screen which you can see sitting next to the not-very-circular felt piece, and a course screen which I did not remove from the pump to it isn't seen here.  The screens and felt are held in with a V shaped ring and a retaining ring.




The apron is a big casting, but the front face is an aluminum plate.  I used a wire brush on an angle grinder to strip of grease and loose paint, the original green adhered fairly well and I prefer not to deal with the chemicals to prime aluminum, so I just painted over it like that after a couple of degreasing passes.  Makes for a somewhat ugly paint job, but it matches the rest of the lathe.








This pump lubricates not only the apron, but also pumps oil through the carriage to lubricate the ways.  So it is fairly important to the long term health of the ways.  All three monarchs that I own use a similar arrangement, and the pump is relatively easy to access.  The manual for this lathe specifies replacing the filter every 6 months, but that is for an industrial environment.  I doubt I'll put equivalent time on the lathe in 6 years.

I think at this point I'm going to bolt the apron up to the carriage and try it out.  Ideally I'd go through the carriage oil lines and make sure none of them are plugged up with sludge.  Sometimes I find getting it working and seeing what else needs attention is better than trying to systematically go through everything, at least that keeps me interested in the work.


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## rabler (Aug 12, 2021)

Aloris CA post next to the original 4 way toolpost.  The CA looks a little small on the compound, I'll need to raise it just under 1/4" for 1/2" tools to reach centerline.


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## DAM 79 (Aug 13, 2021)

rabler said:


> Aloris CA post next to the original 4 way toolpost.  The CA looks a little small on the compound, I'll need to raise it just under 1/4" for 1/2" tools to reach centerline.
> View attachment 375135
> View attachment 375136


That’s what size tool post I have on Both my Monarch lathes (16CY that swings 18”) and (16x30 that swings 20-1/2”) and them CA tool holders are not cheap even the used ones people want $75-$125 each !!im thinking I might try and make some this fall or winter if I can find the time but I can definitely see where you could use a DA size tool post on your lathe but again the price of them used is up there also


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## rabler (Aug 13, 2021)

DAM 79 said:


> That’s what size tool post I have on Both my Monarch lathes (16CY that swings 18”) and (16x30 that swings 20-1/2”) and them CA tool holders are not cheap even the used ones people want $75-$125 each !!im thinking I might try and make some this fall or winter if I can find the time but I can definitely see where you could use a DA size tool post on your lathe but again the price of them used is up there also


Shars sells Aloris brand type #1 for just under $100, and their own brand for just under $40.  I intend to pick up a couple of their’s to see how well they work with the Aloris post.


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## DAM 79 (Aug 13, 2021)

rabler said:


> Shars sells Aloris brand type #1 for just under $100, and their own brand for just under $40.  I intend to pick up a couple of their’s to see how well they work with the Aloris post.


I will definitely have to look into that because the ones I have came with the lathe and I want to get some more


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 13, 2021)

rabler said:


> Aloris CA post next to the original 4 way toolpost.  The CA looks a little small on the compound, I'll need to raise it just under 1/4" for 1/2" tools to reach centerline.
> View attachment 375135
> View attachment 375136


That CA looks a little sad next to the 4 way. I assume you would like to stick with the CA as your other Monarch's already use them and you can share tools between them.


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## rabler (Aug 13, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> That CA looks a little sad next to the 4 way. I assume you would like to stick with the CA as your other Monarch's already use them and you can share tools between them.


It really does look sad!  My other lathes use BXA's,  DAM 79 is the one with other CA based machines.  I'm fine with the CA as I don't see a need for using larger tools or more DoC capability.  The additional cost of a DA post, and more so the cost of DA holders as  I accumulate a large set, is the negative for the DA post.  I will end up making a plate to go under the CA to raise it up about .20" so that I can use some of my smaller 1/2" shank insert holders in this lathe.  (Won't that look ridiculous?!).  I hope to accumulate basic tools in 1" shank, but I suspect I'll always have more in the 1/2" for the BXA's.


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## DAM 79 (Aug 15, 2021)

rabler said:


> Aloris CA post next to the original 4 way toolpost.  The CA looks a little small on the compound, I'll need to raise it just under 1/4" for 1/2" tools to reach centerline.
> View attachment 375135
> View attachment 375136


So here’s some pics of the CA tool post on my lathe


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## rabler (Aug 15, 2021)

Today I put quite a bit of time in working on the apron on this thing.  One of the things I noticed was that I could not move the halfnut lever very far.  Nor were the half nuts moving through a range I thought reasonable, only about 3/16".  I was at first suspicious of the interlock with the feed rod engagement.  I took that off.  Still no movement range.



So I took the whole half nut mechanism apart.  The plate with the short diagonal slot near the middle of the above picture gave me some grief as it was pinned as well as bolted and the pins were tight, hard to get out.  Finally got the whole half nut mechanism out.



Lever still didn't move.  The pins should at least turn through 90 degrees.  Turns out the front lever goes through a bevel gear.  If you look very carefully you can see the top the roll pin that holds the bevel gear onto the shaft, sticking out of the bevel gear just a bit.  That was enough to interfere in the lever block.  I ground the pin down just a bit (it was too mushroomed to drive in)), and problem solved.



If you look at the first picture above you can see a copper line near the top center of the picture.  It goes from the half nut to the brass gear that engages with the worm gear on the feed rod.  You can also see a very short piece of copper tube and a brass connector just above the half nut.  The tube above the half nut feeds oil into the half nut when the half nut is closed, and when the half nut is fully open feeds the oil through the upper center tube to the brass driven gear off the feed rod worm.  So it is important on this lathe to make sure the half nut is fully open when using the feed mechanism to lubricate the worm and gear.

After getting that all back together, I struggled to get the apron back under the carriage.  Easier said than done.  The apron weighs enough that it needs to be hoisted into place.   Problem was I had put the K&T mill 6" too close to the lathe, so I could no longer get the hoist around the back of the lathe.  So I had started the day by jacking up the K&T, (which weighs almost as much as this lathe), putting it on skates, and prying it over the needed 6".   Getting a lifting point that would clear the carriage while hoisting the apron, plus would reasonably balance the apron, was a real challenge.  Took several attempts and a lot of 'creative grumbling'.



Anyway, got the apron attached and the 8 bolts through the top of the carriage tightened.  Then had to figure out the clutch rod.  On the QCGB end it has a taper pin through two bushings and the shaft.  Of course a taper pin only goes through those properly one way or it won't seat fully.  The clutch rod goes through the apron, and has two levers, one at the right hand side of the apron and one at the right hand side of the QCGB.  I barely had enough room between the wall and the tailstock end of the lathe to get the rod into the right side of the apron and slide it over.  Then had to try a couple times to get everything clocked right.  So that's in.  Just need to get the feed rod, rapid traverse drive rod, and the leadscrew in.

Then I realized that I had put the apron on, but the carriage lock (which sits inside the apron above the halfnut on this lathe), was still in the parts box.  A lot more 'creative grumbling' ensued.

I'll take a more careful look at it tomorrow and see if it is going to be possible to get the carriage lock in without pulling the apron back out, but I'm not optimistic.  Oh well.

All in all, it felt good to get some time back in the shop, even with the various issues.


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## extropic (Aug 15, 2021)

Excellent progress there.
If you have to drop dismount the apron again, I'd like to see the lifting jig.


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## rabler (Aug 15, 2021)

extropic said:


> Excellent progress there.
> If you have to drop dismount the apron again, I'd like to see the lifting jig.


I have a 4’ spreader bar that I should have used today.  I’m sure that’ll come into play if it needs to come off again.  If so I’ll get pics.


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## rabler (Aug 16, 2021)

rabler said:


> I have a 4’ spreader bar that I should have used today.  I’m sure that’ll come into play if it needs to come off again.  If so I’ll get pics.


Fortunately it went fairly easy, I only needed to drop the apron down about 4" to get the carriage lock under there.   The dirt marks on the bottom of the apron are from me using my foot (while seated in a chair) to push the bottom of the apron into place while putting the cap screws in from the top.  I got the feed rod and rapid traverse rod started through the apron.  Took a break for lunch.


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 16, 2021)

We use what we have. Looking like a lathe again.


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## rabler (Aug 17, 2021)

Thinking about another Electronica 400 DRO for this lathe, I have one on my CK and like it.


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## rabler (Aug 17, 2021)

So I picked this lathe up almost a year ago.  Here is a rough cost break down to date:
Lathe $2300
Fuel & Hotel   $300
Replace main motor w/ 10HP, use original 20HP with WNY panel to build RPC:  $1000  (used across three machines)
New Aloris CA toolpost with a couple holders $1000
Paint and cleaning supplies:  $300
QCGB replacement tumbler:  $100
Oil:  $120
Wiring, conduit, and overload relay replacements: $200

Planned:
Bison 16" 4-jaw:  $2000
DRO:   $1000

$8320 Total

No steady or follow rest.  Obviously no cutting tools and only a few holders. I'll eventually want to fab a small jib crane over it.  That's about $4300 for getting the lathe working, and another $4000 for chuck, DRO, and toolpost.  Looking forward, I can see sinking about $2000 into inserts, tools, and toolholders.


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## DAM 79 (Aug 17, 2021)

rabler said:


> Thinking about another Electronica 400 DRO for this lathe, I have one on my CK and like it.


Now that’s the one thing I don’t have yet on my lathe is a good working DRO !!! And want to get at some point I have a DRO Pros one on my Bridgeport mill and there’s a old Anilam on my VanNorman mill but it works !!!


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## rabler (Aug 17, 2021)

Today's challenge was putting the leadscrew back on.  
The leadscrew itself is about 1.5" in diameter, and over 8' long end to end.  Weighs maybe 60-70 lbs.  Pretty big in my book.

The first challenge was that I had set the lathe so the tailstock end was about 2' from a wall.  With the carriage cranked far left toward the headstock, there wasn't enough room to get the leadscrew into the right side of the apron.  So out came the toe jack, and the skates, jacked it up and onto three skates, then used the tractor to push it over the needed extra foot. 

Had to take the threading dial off to insert the leadscrew.  The headstock end of the leadscrew isn't threaded and is full diameter so the gear for the threading dial blocked sliding the leadscrew in.  Three capscrews and that came off and the leadscrew slid through the apron easily enough with the half nuts open.

Then things got complicated.  Trying to get the leadscrew connected to the QCGB turned out to be quite complicated.  Here's what the end of the leadscrew looks like (there is a vertical oil glass in the background that is not part of the leadscrew):   The leadscrew as pictured has
1) a round nut, fine threaded
2) gear held on with a woodruff key.
3) roller bearing
4) spacer
5) tapered bearing and cone
6) oil ring spacer with felt oil wick
7) tapered bearing and cone
8) cover plate
9) some wort of big flanged bushing in the QCGB endplate



Here's the full up parts diagram description of the end plate and the leadscrew end assembly (shaft B), the leadscrew itself appears on a different sheet.



I was hoping the parts diagram would at least show which way the taper bearings sit, but no luck there. Dealing with parts Q29-Q39.  Taking the leadscrew out had been a matter of removing the nut (Q29), pulling the shaft out a few inches, pulling the gear off the end (Q30), and then pulling the leadscrew out.  Just reverse to re-install, right?  I could only wish!

The challenge is that there isn't a lot of room where that gear sits.   The gear has a bit of a flange on the right side.  The trick is getting the woodruff key in.  Easy enough to get the gear on the shaft, slide the shaft over a bit, and get the nut on there without getting the woodruff key in.  Of course, without the woodruff key, the leadscrew is worthless.  But there wasn't enough room to get the woodruff key between the gear and the right side.  Begin lots of loud 'creative grumbling'.   Especially since anything that dropped went deep into this cavity and we needed a magnet to fish things out. Fortunately my wife was helping me with this today.  Lots of trips between the garage and the workshop by the house (about 1/4 mile), she got plenty of walking in.  



If you look carefully at the above picture you can see a barrel to the right of the gear, around the shaft.  This is Q36.  After some head scratching and several attempts to get the woodruff key in that resulted in fishing various parts out of the bottom with a magnet, I realized Q36 needed to be driven to the right a bit which would give enough room to get the woodruff key in there.



So, an afternoon's work got the leadscrew back in.  Put the support bracket for the leadscrew, clutch rod, feed rod, and traverse rod on the tailstock end of the bed.  Used the tractor to pull the lathe back into the previous position.  Fired it up and tested it.   Whooo-hooo, everything worked.  Rapid traverse for the carriage left/right, cross slide in/out.  Feed rod.  Leadscrew.    

I would say that the rapid traverse is neat but is going to take some caution.  The levers on the apron activate it, but while rapidly traversing, the corresponding dial/crank turns fairly rapidly.  I would not want to get any body parts caught in those cranks.  They sit at an awkward height that could easily zipper out of your pants, and anything else they happen to ... catch.

I'm going to do some test cuts with it for fun in the next couple days, but it isn't done yet.  I'll want to dissassemble the cross slide as it is fairly stiff.  Quick tinkering with the gib adjustment didn't make a difference.


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## rabler (Aug 19, 2021)

Been ordering some tooling.  Lots of 1" shank holders:
A neutral MSDN
L & R MCLN
L & R MWLN
For now ordering holders for smaller 3/8 inscribed circle inserts to match my tooling for the other lathes.  Otherwise the necessary collection of inserts could quickly get out of hand.  I may at some point pick up a couple holders for 1/2" or larger inserts for roughing, but I'm rarely pressed to move large amounts of metal quickly even if this lathe would happily oblige.

Now I just need to finish my diamond lapper so I can make some monster HSS tooling.


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## rabler (Aug 27, 2021)

Well, I may have gotten carried away, but this lathe is in another building, about 1/4 mile away from my other machines.  So I can't easily share tools between machines.  So I went ahead and purchased quite a bit of tooling for this machine.

The QCTP pictured is an Aloris CA, with a 1" Kennametal MCLNR tool.  Next to it is the original 4-way toolpost with a Shars 1 1/4" MCLNR insert tool for scale.  In front of the Aloris QCTP is the original shaft that came with the shaft, and a longer shaft I made for it.  I'm milling a new T-nut and spacer plate to raise the QCTP up by .2" so that even 1/2" insert holders will work in this toolpost.  Also a couple of MT4 dead centers for the tailstock.  The tailstock on this machine has bearings in it so live centers aren't needed.  That does require a missing special adapter to use drills or reamers in the tailstock.  I'll probably use the toolpost/carriage for most of those operations.

The chuck wrench is something I made this week to go with this lathe. 

Anyway, this lathe is now more or less functional.  Not that it is *finished*.  I expect to iterate.  But I'm going to shift to working on improving the CK and use this lathe to see what further work suits me.


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## extropic (Aug 27, 2021)

@rabler

I'd never heard of a tailstock spindle with taper supported by integral bearings. Is that a factory set-up or shop modification?
I'd like to see more details if you get a chance.

Such a configuration only makes sense to me if the tailstock is intended to never be used for drilling or tapping. I guess I'm just used to the conventional configuration (non-rotating taper). Do you have an image of the "missing special adaptor"?


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## rabler (Aug 28, 2021)

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> I'd never heard of a tailstock spindle with taper supported by integral bearings. Is that a factory set-up or shop modification?
> I'd like to see more details if you get a chance.
> ...


Factory option, called an anti-friction tailstock.  See parts manual from vintagemachinery.org.  Its not an exact match to my model year but best I have.


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## FOMOGO (Aug 28, 2021)

That's a pretty cool feature. Gives you a live, dead center, or I suppose you could call it a "Zombie center".  Mike


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## rabler (Aug 28, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> That's a pretty cool feature. Gives you a live, dead center, or I suppose you could call it a "Zombie center".  Mike


LOL.  Does that mean instead of a tailstock I should call it a tombstone?

It certainly is heavy enough to be a tombstone. It must weigh at least 300 lbs, heavy enough that even with the ways well oiled the only way to slide it is to stand down at the tailstock end and use your body weight to push/pull.  It is suppose to have a handle and gear that engage with the carriage rack to move it but that part is missing.


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 28, 2021)

rabler said:


> LOL.  Does that mean instead of a tailstock I should call it a tombstone?
> 
> It certainly is heavy enough to be a tombstone. It must weigh at least 300 lbs, heavy enough that even with the ways well oiled the only way to slide it is to stand down at the tailstock end and use your body weight to push/pull.  It is suppose to have a handle and gear that engage with the carriage rack to move it but that part is missing.



I was about to say, that is why they have a handle and it is gear driven, but you indicated it was missing. Hopefully you can find a replacement. Would make using the lathe much easier. 

I am so envious of that lathe. Hope when we get into our final home, that I am able to find one for my shop. Congrats. Loved watching you go through it. Appreciate your meticulous process and attention to detail.


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## rabler (Aug 28, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> I was about to say, that is why they have a handle and it is gear driven, but you indicated it was missing. Hopefully you can find a replacement. Would make using the lathe much easier.
> 
> I am so envious of that lathe. Hope when we get into our final home, that I am able to find one for my shop. Congrats. Loved watching you go through it. Appreciate your meticulous process and attention to detail.


Thanks much.  I’ll probably make a handle and arm for the tailstock as a weldment, if I can find the appropriate gear.


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## rabler (Aug 31, 2021)

Got the spacer made for the CA toolpost, along with a new T-nut and shaft.


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2021)

An interesting project that stretched my skills a bit.  This was a combination of welding and machining.  I've heard that called a weldment.

One of the things that didn't come with this lathe that is relatively critical is a drive crank for the tailstock.  The tailstock on this thing is truly massive.  Even with well oiled ways, it's all I can do to slide the thing along the ways.  Doing that requires standing at tailstock end of the bed and throwing my considerable body weight into it.  The lathe is designed to have a hand crank that engages with the carriage rack to allow some mechanical advantage to move the tailstock.   You can see the four holes (two bolt holes and two locating pins) on the side of the tailstock in this picture.  Note the size of the tailstock relative to the one gallon paint can.



The crank needs to go over the V-way for the carriage and over the leadscrew (which is not installed in the above picture).  I wanted a somewhat cosmetically pleasing design.

I started with some hot-rolled 1" x 3" bar stock, and face-milled off the mill scale.  I cut four pieces.  The first piece being a U-shaped piece with holes for a hinge pin, then two short pieces, and then a long tail piece.  All four pieces had a 22.5* taper cut on the adjoining faces, and then those faces V'd out on both sides for weld beads.    Welded that all up with the MIG welder.




Unfortunately despite my best efforts the hinge pin was a few degrees off from being 90* from the tail piece.   I decided to taper the tail piece going down to give it a little more style, although it was really a fix for that problem.  Ended up looking good so I'm pleased.

After a little work with an angle grinder, I had a decent looking piece.



Then I milled up the plate to go onto the tailstock, and the pivot block.  The plate is faced 3/8" HRS, with a 1.5" x 1.5" x 2" block on the center.  I had milled a 3/4" hole centered under the block, clamped it up and plug welded it to the block before welding the perimeter.  I milled the weld off on the top.   Here you can see the two together with the hinge pin partially installed.



Next step was to make the through-hole for the shaft for the crank.  Getting the location correct was a bit of a challenge.  I fit the piece up onto the tailstock and used a 1-2-3 off the bottom of the rack to mark the location of the rack teeth, and then worked from there.  Unfortunately I don't have a picture of that setup.    But that gave me a location to drill for the shaft.  I purchased a gear from McMaster, 8 DP 12 tooth 20* PA.  Pricey, but I have yet to try gear cutting.  My rotary table has way too much backlash in the worm, I'll need to work on that before using it for something like that.  That gear has a 3/4" bore for a shaft.  I started by drilling a 7/8" hole, and a 7/8" hole in a  1.50" diameter bushing to increase the contact area for the shaft. I also turned a 7/8" plug to drop through both to keep them in line while welding them together.



Once welded together,  cut the piece to lenth around the hole using the horizontal bandsaw, then used the boring head on the mill to open the combined hole up to 1.0", giving me a perfectly concentric through hole.  I then used the rotary table (no picture) to round off the bottom bandsaw cuts.



I turned a 1.001" OD, .753" ID bronze bushing, put the bushing in the freezer and the large piece in the shop toaster oven, and pressed them together for a good solid fit.  Here's a test fit:  This uses a scrap piece I turned for the gear shaft.  Plan is to turn a longer shaft with a 7/8" hex end coupling protruding.  That happens to also be the size of the carriage lock bolt on this lathe so I can use the crank to also lock the carriage.



Still need to make that shaft, and the handcrank, and then paint everything.  Also waiting for some slight shorter 1/2" SHCS as the ones pictured above are too long to seat in the blind holes in the tailstock.


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## DAM 79 (Oct 13, 2021)

That looks pretty good in my book and when you get some paint on it that look just like part of the lathe !!!! Great fabrication Skills !!!


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> I was about to say, that is why they have a handle and it is gear driven, but you indicated it was missing. Hopefully you can find a replacement. Would make using the lathe much easier.
> 
> I am so envious of that lathe. Hope when we get into our final home, that I am able to find one for my shop. Congrats. Loved watching you go through it. Appreciate your meticulous process and attention to detail.


Getting closer to having that handle      Thank you for the compliments!

My first lathe, the benchtop Grizzly, just left packed up in the back of another forum member's hatchback.  So I need to get this 612 working, because having only one working lathe is leaving me feeling a bit insecure.  

I'm hoping when I'm finished for this 612 to be something to really be a workhorse.


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## extropic (Oct 13, 2021)

Great project. Nice work.

That pinion has no keyway and not much meat for setscrew(s). I guess you're going to match drill and pin?


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2021)

extropic said:


> Great project. Nice work.


Thanks!!


extropic said:


> That pinion has no keyway and not much meat for setscrew(s). I guess you're going to match drill and pin?


Yes.  Either a roll pin (spring pin?), or a taper pin since I have those and the necessary reamer.   I ordered the pinion unhardened, I'd rather chew up the pinion, which is easy enough to replace, than the rack.  The .875 hex head coupling will get the same treatment, so the shaft is captive on the arm.

One thing I haven't settled on yet but the pinion is going to rub on the bed casting.  I left the shaft about .3" shorter than the pinion, so I could put a brass, or maybe a teflon plug on the casting side of the pinion to reduce rubbing.


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> I am so envious of that lathe. Hope when we get into our final home, that I am able to find one for my shop


I should warn you that finding one is the easy part.  Moving it is much more challenging.


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## extropic (Oct 13, 2021)

rabler said:


> <snip
> One thing I haven't settled on yet but the pinion is going to rub on the bed casting.  I left the shaft about .3" shorter than the pinion, so I could put a brass, or maybe a teflon plug on the casting side of the pinion to reduce rubbing.



Your weldment looks great.

I would have guessed that the original factory bracket would have been rigid (not hinged). Was the original hinged?

The idea of stopping the swing off of an "as cast" surface feels kind of rough (pun intended) to me .
Alternative idea: make a collar to fit (press?) over the pinion OD and pin it with the same pin. The side face of the collar rubs along the side of the rack.
You might be able to implement a small roller (or two) to follow the side of the rack.
Just thoughts. YMMV.


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2021)

extropic said:


> Your weldment looks great.
> 
> I would have guessed that the original factory bracket would have been rigid (not hinged). Was the original hinged?
> 
> ...


I'd thought about the collar approach too, using a piece of 6061 or bronze.

Monarch hinged the original in all of the various models of the 610/612 (three swing sizes each).  I would guess that being able to swing the pinion out of the way would facilitate sliding the tailstock without using the gear.  Monarch made a 1610, 2013, and 2516 version of these, where the first two digits is the swing over the ways, and the second two digits is the swing over the carriage. Since this is a 2516,the largest swing of the variants, sliding the tailstock was probably more realistic on the smaller machines.  If I recall correctly, the 610 was a narrower bed version, and thus not as heavy, but had the same swing options.

As far as I can tell they didn't have any mechanism to prevent rubbing on the casting.



I believe the pin (X68) and knob (X69) allowed the crank to be locked out so it wasn't engaged


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2021)

extropic said:


> The idea of stopping the swing off of an "as cast" surface feels kind of rough (pun intended) to me .


I need to take a closer look at the bed tomorrow.
I know for sure that the apron actually has a phenolic follower that rides on the vertical face of the bed near the bottom of the apron.  That follower is lubricated by oil groves, and has a machined face on the bed to ride along.  I think the machined flat for the rack just extends down low enough to permit the pinion to have a machined face rather than a rough casting.


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## extropic (Oct 13, 2021)

Maybe the mesh of the pinion and rack was the swing limiter. That would have been easy enough for the factory to design in (if the two mesh when the pinion is on the upswing.


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## rabler (Oct 13, 2021)

extropic said:


> Maybe the mesh of the pinion and rack was the swing limiter. That would have been easy enough for the factory to design in (if the two mesh when the pinion is on the upswing.


Doubtful, if you look at part X11, the pivot point would need to extend farther out from the tailstock for that.  These parts diagrams are usually to a consistent scale.  As it is that pivot point is very close to vertical over the rack.


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## Papa Charlie (Oct 14, 2021)

Is the gear rubbing against the bed casting now?

I think you may be able to shorten the gear and have the interface between the gear and the pinion prevent it from touching.


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## rabler (Oct 14, 2021)

*Critical Design Review*
My background is in engineering, but electrical not mechanical.  When I worked on gov contracts, we had PDRs and CDRs, etc.  (Powdered Donuts Review and Coffee & Donuts Review).  So my coffee & donuts break on this design has arrived 

The bed is indeed milled below the rack, it actually looks like most of the bed face is milled.  I cleaned it up and painted it, with a roller and brush, so it is not the ideal contact surface, but certainly could be used.  I also looked at what pictures I could find and asked on practical machinist's Monarch forum and one of the helpful folks there did some digging.  It looks like at least on the older model 61's, they did use a collar that contacted the rack face.  So either approach, teflon plug or collar appear viable, nor are they mutually exclusive.



Getting the gear fit to the rack was the biggest challenge of this project so far.  Fortunately these are fairly large gear teeth so that increases the tolerance a bit.  I had done a test fit before using the boring head, and actually bored the final hole for the bronze bushing a bit off center (low) as my initial fit up needed about 1/32 more clearance.  The challenge is that the hinge pin is just about vertical over the pinion/rack engagement.  If it was perfectly vertical, that means the pinion would be moving horizontally at the bottom of the swing as it engages in the rack.  Not having any vertical movement means interference between the gear and pinion can't be used as a limiting factor to keep the pinion from hitting the bed.


This second picture shows the current pinion and shaft disassembled.  Note that the shaft is going to be forced horizontally along the bed by the gear force when being used, that force pushes the arm and thus the tailstock.  That means the shaft is going to be torqued pretty well in the bushing.  You can see I put an enlarged area on the shaft to act as a spacer between the arm an pinion.  Ideally I would have made the bushing that is welded onto the arm longer as this would reduce the torque and wear on the bronze pressed-in insert.   While I could correct that, mill off the existing bushing and add a larger bushing, the bronze bearing is easy enough to replace and I'm guessing if I keep it oiled will outlast my use of this lathe.  While my arm is an inverted J shape, Monarch's arm is a more of a backwards C shape.  Replicating that would have made getting the right pinion/rack engagement a little more difficult to pick up.


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## Papa Charlie (Oct 14, 2021)

I think the gear has the most chance of impacting the bed when you are cranking on the handle. A button of delrin or bronze in the end of the gear would help with that and you most likely will not be moving it so often that there would be any issue either way. Not like, at least to my understanding, you will be using this in a production environment. 

I really like the thought process and execution, well done.


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## extropic (Oct 15, 2021)

Now, knowing the the area below the rack is a machined surface and with all the details you provided, I completely agree that the button-in-the-bore idea is a good one.

Thanks for taking the comments in the spirit they were offered. This type of discussion can be helpful to all readers faced with applicable circumstances.


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## rabler (Oct 15, 2021)

extropic said:


> Thanks for taking the comments in the spirit they were offered. This type of discussion can be helpful to all readers faced with applicable circumstances.


I appreciate the comments.  I don’t necessarily ask direct questions, but at least in this case I’m posing a problem as I think through it.  The discussion helps that process.


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## rabler (Oct 16, 2021)

*Belt and suspenders*
I ended up with both approaches, an aluminum collar and a nylon button.  I'd started on the collar and mail ordered the nylon about the same time.  Also some delrin.  I was thinking of making a crank handle for this, but a ratcheting 7/8 wrench works really well.  That is intentionally the same size as the carriage lock, so I am going to skip the crank handle and dedicate a wrench to share between those uses.  It slides amazingly well with the wrench action, although it is counter-intuitive, as clockwise moves the tailstock toward the chuck, counterclockwise moves away.




I'll paint it when I next break out paint, I will want to paint parts of the cross slide after I service that, so I'll combine that painting.


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## Firstram (Oct 16, 2021)

Very nice!


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## rabler (Oct 18, 2021)

And the next chapter - working on the cross slide.
I decided to take the cross slide apart.  It was just a little stiff to turn, not bad, but the size of this thing means anything less than perfect makes it difficult to turn leadscrew accurately.

I used the hoist to take the compound off.  I'd bet the compound weighs at least 100lbs.  Note one problem, the oil line is disconnected.  This was under a sheet metal chip shield so I had not noticed this earlier.  Fixing that would be straightforward, but it appears that the oil for this was sourced from the reservoir in the back of the carriage.  I'd taken the cover off the reservoir in my attempts to figure out how to remove the cross slide.


That reservoir is associated with the remnants of an electronic tracer mechanism, basically a missing (servo?) motor which could drive the back end of the leadscrew.  The wires here are part of an electromagnetic clutch for that motor.  That motor also turned an oil pump even when the clutch was disengaged, but the motor is currently missing.  So no oil pump action to the cross slide.  I will need to explore exactly what was oiled from that pump and how it was routed.   I may just install a manual one-shot oiler.


  Took me a little bit to figure out the way to remove this cross slide was to pull the gib out.  I was expecting it to slide off of one end or the other.

Here is the bottom of the cross slide, resting on its side, and the cross slide ways, leadscrew and leadscrew nut below.  The 123 block is for scale.



Looking closer at the leadscrew nut, you can see it has four tapped holes and a slot across the top.  The four holes match to the bolt holes in the cross slide with the hole in the casting.  That hole normally has a plug with a V'd bottom that sits in the slot in the nut.  Not sure exactly what that accomplishes.  But more interesting is the brass/bronze pinion to the right of the nut.  The pinion is threaded onto the leadscrew, but is independent of the main leadscrew nut.  The worm drive in the bottom of the cross slide engages that pinion and turns it into/away from the main nut.  The worm drive is turned by a deceptively small allen head on the end of it's shaft on the side of the cross slide.  This mechanism allows the backlash in the nut to be adjusted.  From what I can tell this mechanism was an option included on the 612 model if it had either a tracer attachment or the electronic tracer.



Stopped for lunch there.  Next step will be to remove the leadscrew itself, and start cleaning everything.  Then check the bearings.  If you look back at the first of these pictures, you'll see the square plate on the top of the cross slide is cracked.  That plate is what holds that worm gear.  So I'll need to dissassemble that and either braze up the casting or fabricate a new piece.


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## extropic (Oct 18, 2021)

I'm enjoying seeing the details of the machine as you progress. Thanks for posting. IMHO, it's a great project.


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## rabler (Oct 18, 2021)

extropic said:


> I'm enjoying seeing the details of the machine as you progress. Thanks for posting. IMHO, it's a great project.


I still shake my head thinking I started only 4 years ago with a 10x22.  Some day I might actually have something that actually needs a lathe this big.


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## rabler (Oct 22, 2021)

Just for kicks, I got a 2000lb hoist scale. 
The tailstock weighs in at 687 lbs.
The compound, including the CA QCTP, weighs in at 146 lbs.


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## rabler (Oct 24, 2021)

Had to fix up this plate.  My first time using Silicon Bronze brazing.  I preheated this little casting in my shop's toaster oven for about an hour at 450 degrees F.   Everlast TIG at 70 amps DC.  You can see a few spots where I melted some of the casting into the brazing and the resulting porosity.  I milled off the extra brazing and hit it with a wire wheel before these pictures.  Not very good quality welding, but three pieces are now back together.   One of the cracks went through a locating pin.  I could drill that out again but I think there is going to be just enough change in dimension from fitup that both of the previous pins wont quite line up, so I'll just use the uncracked pin hole.  

After it gets painted it'll be look good as new  

Picture of the worm mechanism it holds included for those interested in the mechanics.


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## akjeff (Oct 24, 2021)

rabler said:


> Had to fix up this plate.  My first time using Silicon Bronze brazing.  I preheated this little casting in my shop's toaster oven for about an hour at 450 degrees F.   Everlast TIG at 70 amps DC.  You can see a few spots where I melted some of the casting into the brazing and the resulting porosity.  I milled off the extra brazing and hit it with a wire wheel before these pictures.  Not very good quality welding, but three pieces are now back together.   After it gets painted it'll be look good as new
> 
> Picture of the worm mechanism it holds included for those interested in the mechanics.
> 
> ...


Nice. Aluminum-Bronze filler works really well for TIG brazing cast iron as well. Definitely a handy capability to have.


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## rabler (Oct 24, 2021)

akjeff said:


> Nice. Aluminum-Bronze filler works really well for TIG brazing cast iron as well. Definitely a handy capability to have.


Yeah, that's what Jody (welding tips and tricks on YouTube) says, Aluminum Bronze with AC.  I had the Silicon Bronze rods on hand.


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## akjeff (Oct 24, 2021)

rabler said:


> Yeah, that's what Jody (welding tips and tricks on YouTube) says, Aluminum Bronze with AC.  I had the Silicon Bronze rods on hand.


Yes AC, forgot to mention that part.


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## Winegrower (Oct 25, 2021)

Great job on the tailstock crank!


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## rabler (Aug 3, 2022)

When is 12 14 TPI a fine thread?  When your leveling bolts are 1” diameter.

Started working on leveling this beast now that it has sat for a few weeks and I’m still happy with it’s location.  I pulled it off the 4x4’s that it had been sitting on, and got 7 of the 8 leveling bolts resting on the 3” steel hockey pucks I made for the job. A little tedious.  Was not going to stick my fingers under the lathe while jacking it up to move from cribbing to steel pucks.  Also the bolts are inside the headst base in not overly convenient locations.  The eighth bolt is missing so I’ll probably order one from McMaster although if I was ambitious I could turn one.


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