# Anyone order a machine from Alibaba?



## 8mpg (Sep 8, 2018)

Hey guys, new here, just getting into a new hobby of machining. I just got a cheaper Bridgeport Mill but looking to buy a lathe. I have been looking for old iron for months and it all seems expensive and worn out. I have decided to go Grizzly/PM route and just buy a new one. With that said, I just noticed all the 25% hikes on Grizzly products due to the new tariff. It says there is no tariff on Taiwanese machines which is nice you can see what is made where now.

Anyways, with the increased prices, I have started searching and ran across Alibaba. They are selling the same machines as Grizzly and PM but for way less. I just got a quote on this lathe which looks to be the same as the Grizzly G0772:

The price he quoted was $3700 with 2 axis DRO and shipping of $150. I would have to drive to Houston to pick it up from the port.

Even at $4000 shipped, its about $2200 cheaper than the Grizzly


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## ttabbal (Sep 8, 2018)

Keep in mind, while the machine may look similar, that doesn't mean it's the same thing. It could be, but it's impossible to know for sure. And you have little to no support if you get a broken part etc... I didn't mind that with a $200 DRO kit, but with a machine I don't think I would be comfortable. Even if someone has bought machine with the same picture, it is not guaranteed that you would receive the same machine. 

It could be a great deal, it could be trash. No way to know. I suspect it's somewhere in the middle and you'll be fine after tweaking things. Think of it like buying a used machine without being able to inspect it. With the mill you can probably make parts if you can't get them... 

PM 1236 is in that range and is a well known and highly regarded machine around here. Just another option. I'm not sure it's comparable since G0772 brought up a table saw.


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## 8mpg (Sep 8, 2018)

Thanks for the reply.  The correct machine is the g0776. It's a 13x40 with all the same specs. I may end up the guinea pig and ordering one. Just got another quote from another company for $3350 shipped to Houston.

The pm1236 and g4003 were my main contenders. If I buy either I think the pm is probably my preference


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## ttabbal (Sep 8, 2018)

You may be on to a great deal. I sure hope you are, wouldn't want to see anyone here get taken. I've bought plenty of good stuff direct from China. Never more than about $300, but never know. Everyone has a different comfort level with the risks, only you can decide yours.


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## JimDawson (Sep 8, 2018)

I just did a quick search of Craigslist in your area, any of these would be worth looking at.  The Jet would be my first choice.  I use Search Tempest to search. https://www.searchtempest.com/

https://tulsa.craigslist.org/tls/d/grizzly-12x-36-gunsmith-metal/6679450335.html

https://killeen.craigslist.org/tls/d/14x40-gearhead-lathe/6680172243.html

https://sanantonio.craigslist.org/tls/d/jet-belt-drive-bench-lathe/6661585721.html

https://sanantonio.craigslist.org/hvo/d/grizzly-metal-lathe-12-36/6691237307.html

Might be worth looking before you buy direct from China.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Sep 8, 2018)

The thing with imports is various factories make similar machines. A lathe has to be fitted, not just assembled. When we bought a 10x22 they were a couple of factories in China making them SEIG and XIMA . XIMA ones were fitted, SEIG ones were not. To make them cost competitive a importer had to order stripped down ones from XIMA. We ended up buying the options afterwards.


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## Eddyde (Sep 8, 2018)

If the machine is made in Taiwan it will likely be decent quality, made in China is a gamble, could be good could be junk. Also keep in mind, the shipping doesn't include any tariffs, those costs are your responsibility.


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## 8mpg (Sep 8, 2018)

Thanks everyone for the input. 

Eddyde - thanks for the heads up. I didnt even think about the tariff if I would be hit with it or not. Adding 25% to the Alibaba costs isnt much of a savings vs the risk.

Downwindtrack - Thanks, I had no idea this could be an issue. Its all new to me. 

Jim - Thanks for the links. I didnt know about searchtempest. The lathes you linked are close to what I'd pay new but I see a couple of them come with tooling which is nice. I know it adds up quick. I'll have to look into the Jet.


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## Mitch Alsup (Sep 8, 2018)

An additional consideration is that you might be on the hook for the 25% import from china fee (not the seller).


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## markba633csi (Sep 8, 2018)

My vote is for a machine from Precision Matthews, he stands behind his stuff
mark


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## 8mpg (Sep 8, 2018)

Mitch Alsup said:


> An additional consideration is that you might be on the hook for the 25% import from china fee (not the seller).


Thats definitely a concern. Im not sure where to find out this information. Im not sure if that effects everything imported or just commercial interests.


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## geoffm (Sep 9, 2018)

There are some threads on IForge on people bringing their in blacksmiths air hammers. Port clearance and handling costs can be significant 
https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/51012-ellsen-power-hammers/
https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/50220-chinese-hammers/
https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/42949-chinese-hammer-differences/

I have a Hong Ming zx6350 milling machine, like these https://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Zx6350_Milling_Machine.html. I very nearly bought one from Wieda ( because they are sold here so I can see them, except not this model) or TZ Runfa. This one came up new still on the pallet from a guy who imported it then had to sell due to health reasons. Some QC niggles, like a missing o ring on the horizontal shaft so it poured oil out until I found the problem, and they didn’t have the right size compression olive on a tube on the central oil lube pump so they put the wrong size and pushed the tube so it look ok... lesson is be prepared to spend time finishing it. Having sorted it, it is a good machine that suits me.
The other lesson is that you are paying for freight anyway, so take advantage by stocking up on accessories that can go in the crate like vices and dividing heads, even if you sell them here to recoup costs.


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## juiceclone (Sep 9, 2018)

from experience:
EXPECT a ha$$le with US customs. U will probably have to get a "customs broker" to handle it all for u.  CBP will want forms signed and proof of this or that, all done in person as many times as they can get u to travel to them!! .  Find a broker whom u can trust!  Some charge an exorbitant fee, and won't even tell u what that is till too late.  They actually get free software from the government to submit everything, so the fee is out of line. U need to impress on all concerned that this is an individual importing a tool for private not business use, not for resale as there is a special duty class for that....much less expensive.  Your item will be shipped and taken to a secure customs warehouse where u can pick it up if u have all the proof of duties etc.    I did this several years ago, and got a $3500+ comb machine for $1200, but it really was a hassle I don't think I'd repeat. . Many contacts with customs and brokers left me with a lasting doubt of their integrity.  Broker charged $600 for his "services"  Included was the actual duty paid, but no disclosure of exactly what that was, either from customs or the broker.  Used a backdoor favor to find it was $20 some bucks..
good luck ... u gotta be patient...  U might lookup Sumore Tools in Shanghai, that's where I got mine....They seem to be the actual manufacturer of many machine tools sold under many brands.  "chatted" with Kelley!   Most of the sellers on Ailbaba have a minimum order quantity.   Kelley was able to add mine to someones order, but still ship to me. :>)   
 Don't mean o discourage U,  just forewarn!!  Let us know how it all works out.


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## mksj (Sep 9, 2018)

I think one common misconception is that you may think two machines are identical by their outward appearance, but each machine is built to the importer's specifications, tolerances and QC. So parts are not interchangeable. Also on warranty issues, I think it would be a lost cause if something didn't work or you needed parts at a later point. My biggest concern when buying a machine is long term parts supply and service, i.e. a company that has a local country parts and service center. I would also think of resale value, if you decide to upgrade change at a later point.

You can take a chance on smaller stuff like DRO's tooling etc., but at the machine level you are taking a bigger gamble. I did import a mill from a Canada distributor (there was one in the US at the time but much more expensive) years ago, there were some serious machine defects, some never got resolved and the distributor stopped carrying that brand a few years later. So I learned the hard way about replacement parts and service post sale. As others have mentioned about tariffs, it may be a different story now and although the direct cost to you may be attractive, you may get hit with significant tariff's after the matter of the fact. Also went through that experience and in addition to the import tariffs, the state wanted their sales tax.

The used machines like the G0709 Jim pointed to would be very attractive at this point. You still need to factor in delivery costs. The PM1236 is very attractive at the price point if that size fits your needs, the PM-1236T (Taiwanese) is also very close price wise and is a super lathe for the weekend warrior.  The PM-1340GT, 1440E-LB, 1440GS would be on the short list, the price difference between Chinese and Taiwanese is now very close. I would seriously look at the 1340GT, I had one for many years and it is a wonderful machine. I would definitely opt for a 1340GT over a G0776 which price wise are about the same.

I know a number of other individuals that purchased machines (at reduced cost) thinking they were the same machine, many got burned when it came to getting anything covered under warranty and any post sales support/parts. You need to clearly do your homework, and know the machine you are getting as far as specs and build. I am not saying it can't be done, and the saving can be attractive, but I would not recommend it for this type/cost of machine. There are some import distributors, that essentially ship the machine from China to you and offer local support, Weiss comes to mind now that they have a US outlet. See example below, but there is limited experience. You may get a machines who's numbers on paper look good, but as I found out it may come with metric dials and lead screws as opposed to imperial or some mix of both. Had that on my last mill, making the dials useless.
Bench Lathe WM 300A 914X300mm  http://www.weiss-us.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=106


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## Downwindtracker2 (Sep 9, 2018)

BusyBee and Grizzly got started by direct importing. He wanted a drill press , so he imported 10 and sold 9. The rest is history.

When KMS, a western Canadian tool store chain, took over General's list of suppliers for woodworking machines after General bellied up, they ordered 1/3 in parts. That is the back up you will be missing.

From experience, Grizzly will add my order for parts to their machine order sometimes.

Ailibaba isn't the only broker, just the biggest, I had to wade through long lists to find the manufacturer of our 10x22. Aussies buy machine tools through brokers much more often than you guys do.


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## 8mpg (Sep 9, 2018)

Great insight. I have noticed like Downwindtrack that Aussies do seem to import a lot more. I have seen many threads about people buying tractors and other big equipment direct.

juiceclone - Sunmore was on the list of people Im working with right now. I have seen quite a few guys on Garage Journal Forum that have ordered scissor lifts direct and many also suggest using a freight broker who can do all the customs stuff for me. Houston is my closest port and its still 4 hours away. It sounds like letting them do the paperwork and bring it to me in Dallas is the way to go.

Mksj - this whole lathe thing just keeps growing. I was originally looking at 10x22 size, then noticed that 12x36 isnt much more and has a few more options...went from bench to cabinet based, then looked at PM who seems to have some nicer options for the same money. Then now looking at 13x40. Money keeps creeping up lol. Thanks for the input. I do prefer PM over Grizzly.

Geoff - Thanks for the links. Lots of great reading. It seems that a few people there are quite happy with their purchases. The question is going to be the taxes and possibly tariff.


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## Buffalo21 (Sep 9, 2018)

I see a lot of people tout PM, my dealings with them have been good, but I have bought numerous drill presses, 2 milling machines and a lathe from Jet, some sourced from Taiwan, some sourced from China. I never had any real serious issues, with any thing I bought. The v-belt on the lathe separated after 3-4 years of constant use, but nothing else.

I’ve also bought numerous hand tools, chain falls, hydraulic jacks and pneumatic tools, from Jet and have been very satisfied with what I bought.


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## pstemari (Sep 9, 2018)

I've never really heard anything positive about Alibaba. If you speak Chinese and have contacts there, it might be worthwhile, but aside from that my impression is that it's a cesspool full of scam artists and counterfeit goods.

I've got a perfectly good little 4x6 Jet bandsaw. We also bought a Jet bench drill press for work that I was not impressed with—table lift is pretty Rube Goldberg, there's no quill lock, etc. Nothing major; just a bunch of annoying little design deficiencies.

I also got an ERL-1340 through Matt that's a fabulous machine. The closest thing I have to a complaint about it is one dial that's a tiny bit crooked. The machine makes chips like you wouldn't believe.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## ttabbal (Sep 9, 2018)

Have a serious think about what you need for size. If you were looking for a 10x22, chances are you may not really need a 14x40. And the tooling costs go up with the larger machines. Perhaps the best option is well equipped 12x36, for example. You are the only one that can know that, but it's easy to keep going with "for a few hundred more....".


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## SamI (Sep 10, 2018)

I would be very wary of sellers on Alibaba.  My wife and I run a small business making and selling jewellery online and last year we were looking to import a few items that would compliment our range.  We stumbled across Alibaba and started browsing.  To our horror we saw multiple instances of photos and products from our website being listed in these sellers shops!  When we delved into it further we noticed that a number of our competitors had had their images stolen too.  We actually contacted a few of our competitors to give them a heads up and they informed us that they've given up trying to get their pictures removed from Alibaba now due to the hassle involved.  We contacted one of the "factories" and asked them to remove 6 of our products from his shop and he had the cheek to turn round and try and sell them to us!  I dread to think what I would have actually received if I'd gone ahead with the order.

I'm not saying that all sellers on there are stealing products and I am sure that there are some legitimate sellers on there but if I were to order anything from there I would want a lot more information as to what I would actually be receiving and some sort of proof that they are a legitimate.  I had a friend who started importing mountain bike components and he was actually able to arrange video tours of the factory via Skype.  That being said he still ended up with a lot of QC issues.  It would seem that many of the larger companies importing from China or Taiwan actually employ their own QC engineers to oversee production and ensure that any problems are taken care of before the goods are imported as from what I understand, once they’ve landed on your door it’s your problem.  According to my friend this is still a problem even if you go the same factory where the big brands go as while it's the same factory without the QC corners are inevitably cut.


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## 8mpg (Sep 10, 2018)

Hey guys...just to keep adding to the discussion. Its Monday and I have received back a few more quotes. Sunmore's response was nice and seemed to be honest. He said the particular lathe I was getting a quote on was 6 months out on production. He stated they are the actual manufacturer of the lathe. He also said they will be at a trade show in Chicago in October and I should stop by to see their booth and see their products and quality. I thought this seemed much more substantial than other companies replies. 

I also got another quote back from another company that says they also manufacturer their own equipment. They had a unit in LA, California that I could get immediately and skip all the shipping and import duties. The only issue is a 14x40 was $5900. 

Im really thinking Im going to just go ahead and order a 12x36 from PM. I wasnt sure what size lathe I really needed as this is my first. Originally thinking the 10x22 Grizzly was what I wanted. After thinking and thinking, I just dont want to need a bigger lathe. I think the 12x36 should be enough.


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## Buffalo21 (Sep 10, 2018)

8mpg said:


> Hey guys...just to keep adding to the discussion. Its Monday and I have received back a few more quotes. Sunmore's response was nice and seemed to be honest. He said the particular lathe I was getting a quote on was 6 months out on production. He stated they are the actual manufacturer of the lathe. He also said they will be at a trade show in Chicago in October and I should stop by to see their booth and see their products and quality. I thought this seemed much more substantial than other companies replies.
> 
> .



After being involved with numerous trade shows, I want to see one in the field. They don’t take equipment off of the line and send it to trade shows, the ones at the shows, have been “Fluffed and Buffed”, There will not be any maladjusted gibs, bent shafts or chipped paint, all the parts will be pristine, I would want to see one fresh out of the box, at a customers shop, then see it again 2-3 months later, to see how well the quality survived.

I know people have had problems with Jet tools, I haven’t, but go read the thread on the PM1236, on Home Shop Machinist. his had broken taps in the castings and multiple ill fitting parts. None of these suppliers are perfect, the best you hope for, is you get one of their better examples.

I’d hate to give them my money and wait, for them to send me the part. I tried to buy a lathe from PM. but was not about to pay $5000+ and then wait 6-8 weeks to get the lathe. Especially when I could buy a Jet, Grizzly or a few other, get the  same or same quality machine and get it immediately.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Sep 10, 2018)

The first lathe I used was a big Okuma in pre-ap. A nice big Japanese industrial lathe. The college got it as a donation for tax purposes, it was worn. The next lathe I used 25 years later is my BusyBee DF1224g  , a used Taiwanese generic ,The third lathe I used is my son's XIMA  QC6125, a Chinese 10x22. The easiest lathe to use was also the biggest. The next easiest was the 12" the least the 10"

If you can get machines with the makers name on it, I don't mean Grizzly ,Jet, PM, they are just importers, I feel you might get a better machine.


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