# Wiring advice needed



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 13, 2021)

I want to use my old milling machine 2HP single phase motor to build a belt sander. Can someone please help by way of marking on the pics or diagram where to wire the Live and Neutral input wires. This motor have two caps so it use to run forward and reverse,but I only need to let it run one direction. Also if the wiring is sorted with your help,do O need to disconnect any of the other wires?




Thanks in advance. 
Michael


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 13, 2021)

I am ading these for what it's worth. This is how it was wired when it was still in use on the mill.


----------



## Bi11Hudson (Dec 13, 2021)

The two caps may be to get the proper rating (paralled) or, more likely, one is a START and the other a RUN. In either case, there would be no call to remove one. Reversing is accomplished by reversing the relationship of two windings. The simplest approach is to set the motor in the desired direction and remove the handle from the switch. Then attach an ON/OFF switch in the line cord. For 120 volts, break the BLACK wire, for 240 volts break both. The GREEN is a ground and is never opened. 

As far as rewiring, I am not familiar with your switching network so must abstain. The switch noted above should be motor rated, do not use a residential light switch except to test run.

.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 13, 2021)

The motor is basically a 3phase motor 
It is using the capacitor to make the 3rd leg in both directions 
You can put momentary power to the 1and 3 terminals and see which direction the motor spins
You can then see which capacitor is used for the desired rotation and you can remove the un-needed capacitor


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 13, 2021)

Bi11Hudson said:


> remove the handle from the switch.


Bill what do you mean by this? There is currently no switch conected. Can you tell me where the postive and neutral 220V supply should be wired to? I also think you must totaly disregard the second set of pictures,because I only posted them to show how it was wired while the motor was still in use on the mill. The first set is how it is now and there is only red,brown, and yellow from the motor and the caps wires are blue and brown, there are no black wires in play. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 13, 2021)

Ulma Doctor said:


> The motor is basically a 3phase motor
> It is using the capacitor to make the 3rd leg in both directions
> You can put momentary power to the 1and 3 terminals and see which direction the motor spins
> You can then see which capacitor is used for the desired rotation and you can remove the un-needed capacitor


Do I have it right if I then connect positive to the top left and neutral to bottom left? Is that what you mean by first and third?


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 13, 2021)

Partially correct
The upper left and the 2nd terminal from top on the left


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 13, 2021)

Sorry if I repeat stuff,but I don't want to blow something. So postive supply to red wire terminal from motor side and neutral to brown wire terminal  from motor side? Do I leave the brown wire off the capp there?


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 13, 2021)

I think you got it!
Leave both capacitors hooked up until you get the direction you want


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 14, 2021)

just a fyi- discharge the capacitors before you handle the terminal block or the capacitor wires


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 14, 2021)

This configuration didn't  work
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
.
 I know for a fact the motor was in working order last it was on the mill


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 14, 2021)

I must add that I only pluged the motor in at the wall socket and switched it on. There is no ON/OFF switch in the line,could this be the problem?


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 14, 2021)

Michael I think we need to start over at the beginning- is there a data plate on the motor?  If not we would need to do some detective work on the previous wiring
Are there any numbers on the motor terminal block?  Can you read the numbers on the wires going into the motor?
-Mark


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 14, 2021)

Suzuki4evr said:


> This configuration didn't  work
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would swap the neutral to the #2 position
Are we using 2 hot leads?
The measured voltage should be around 215v
And try again


----------



## Bi11Hudson (Dec 14, 2021)

Suzuki4evr said:


> Bill what do you mean by this? There is currently no switch conected. Can you tell me where the postive and neutral 220V supply should be wired to?


Up front, let me apologize for making some invalid assumptions. I was in a hurry and didn't read the post thoroughly. Just skimmed. . .

Your motor is probably three phase with the third phase being generated by the capacitors. Swapping the caps from one line to the other should reverse the motor. That there are two caps could be one of several possibilities. The most likely being in parallel with each other to increase the value. But that is an assumption, not a hard and fast rule.

I am not knowledgable of your power distribution system, the line feeding your building. I *think* that you have a 240 volt feed on one lead and the second is at ground potential. I think. . . If that is indeed the case, the only line that needs to be switched is the line or "hot" lead, requiring a single pole switch. If, on the other hand, both lines are "above" ground, a two pole switch will be required, breaking both lines. This may be confirmed best by speaking to someone technical from the power company. In most cases, if you have a volt meter, it can be checked by reading voltage from both lines to a known good ground. Be aware that the ground must be a *good* ground, a buried metal water pipe being a good source. With one line reading full line voltage and the other zero, you only need to switch one line. My only experience with such systems is from Australia and New Zealand and Micronesia. Many of the latter were setup to U.S. configuration, with two hot lines at 240 volts and 120 volts line to neutral. Some at 60 CPS, some at 50.

You stated the motor had been reversable when attached to a milling machine. My mind made the transition to the lathe as including the reversing switch. This is* apparently not the case*. It being reversable can be useful at times on a lathe but usually is not an absolute requirement. So there is probably no installation for a reversing switch. However, there will be an ON/OFF switch. Or should be. . . That switch is where a single pole or two pole makes a difference. In the U.S., an ON/OFF switch is often incorporated in a three position reversing switch. As in a FWD/OFF/REV switch. How that is wired is a factor of the type of switch as well as "user" preference, leading to a wide number of wiring configurations. There are several connections for power and reversing. Looking at your terminal block without knowing how it is wired internally is essentially meaningless to me.

There are electrical reasons for an ON/OFF switch, but the most important is a factor of *safety*. There *MUST* be some way to idle the machine quickly and easily. A brake is of concern on a larger machine, but only a convenience on a smaller. There are users (members of this board) that have multiple power switches located away from the machine. That is a factor of personal paranoia as well as the machining of flammable materials. In any case, the machine should be attended whenever it is running. I personally have only one switch that is located away from the machine so can be reached no matter which direction I run. But no matter what arrangment you decide on, unplugging the machine to stop it is not an acceptable method.

As a side note, your reference to "positive and neutral" applies only to DC systems such as a battery powered system. The more valid reference for AC would be "line and neutral" or colloquially "hot and ground". There are many terms for both, some being technical, some colloquial, and some regional. In this case, the latter is most likely to be confusing.

Bi11 Hudson​


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 14, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> Michael I think we need to start over at the beginning- is there a data plate on the motor?  If not we would need to do some detective work on the previous wiring
> Are there any numbers on the motor terminal block?  Can you read the numbers on the wires going into the motor?
> -Mark


Hi Mark.
The data plate is so faded you can't make out anything. The numbers on the terminal block looks like it is in the following order Left top to bottom: U1 V1 Z1/W1. Right top to bottom: Z2/W2 U2 V2. I don't see numbers on the wiring goin into the motor though only the colours. I can only put the pic of how it was wired when it was on the mill again.  I recon V=live


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 14, 2021)

Ulma Doctor said:


> I would swap the neutral to the #2 position
> Are we using 2 hot leads?
> The measured voltage should be around 215v
> And try again


Just one hot lead supply goin in.


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 14, 2021)

Bi11Hudson said:


> Up front, let me apologize for making some invalid assumptions. I was in a hurry and didn't read the post thoroughly. Just skimmed. . .
> 
> Your motor is probably three phase with the third phase being generated by the capacitors. Swapping the caps from one line to the other should reverse the motor. That there are two caps could be one of several possibilities. The most likely being in parallel with each other to increase the value. But that is an assumption, not a hard and fast rule.
> 
> ...


Bill,no apology needed. Thanks for your extensive reply. The terminology used here are positive,neutral and earth.


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 14, 2021)

My brother inlaw is coming on Thursday to help me,but I would still like your input,you can never have too much information. I value all the replys. Thanks


----------



## BROCKWOOD (Dec 14, 2021)

Having stated that you have a Hot, Neutral & Ground + the lead designations, I believe this should be your solution. It's a simple 120V motor with both a start & a run capacitor. You could bypass the directional switch - but, I'm actually seeing a benefit to the reverse option in your application!


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 14, 2021)

BROCKWOOD said:


> Having stated that you have a Hot, Neutral & Ground + the lead designations, I believe this should be your solution. It's a simple 120V motor with both a start & a run capacitor. You could bypass the directional switch - but, I'm actually seeing a benefit to the reverse option in your application!
> View attachment 388528


I don't know if I didn't mention it before,but this motor runs with 220V supply and I will be using it to build a one directional belt sander. Your wiring diagram looks to be setup fo a lathe?


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 14, 2021)

I'll see if I can put together a quick sketch- stay tuned
-M
Question: the motor wires have those little white beads on them- do those have legible numbers?
Here's a motor plate diagram which seems to match yours:  The bottom two configurations represent clockwise and counter-clockwise for 220 volts
You strap across as shown and the power comes in the bottom


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 15, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> I'll see if I can put together a quick sketch- stay tuned
> -M
> Question: the motor wires have those little white beads on them- do those have legible numbers?
> Here's a motor plate diagram which seems to match yours:  The bottom two configurations represent clockwise and counter-clockwise for 220 volts
> You strap across as shown and the power comes in the bottom


Thanks Mark. Yes it is almost the same from what I can make out on my plate. The r/min differes a bit,1400r/min and draws that looks like 9.5A and instead of 20ųF mine shows 35ųF. But that is all. O and yes about the little beads,I just didn't use what God gave me aka MY EYES.....it wad right in front of me,I just turned them so I can see thm. Here is some pics.


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 15, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> You strap across as shown and the power comes in the bottom


I don't have cross straps, I will see if I can get some somewhere. I must do a lot today before I close,I will see if I can get to it tomorrow.  Sorry Mark but by saying power comes in at the bottom,where exactly is that. Sorry for the ignorance now.


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 15, 2021)

In the photo of the data plate you can see the power coming in at the bottom as two little lines
Also, you don't need straps you can use short wires
Those eyeballs can be pretty handy sometimes LOL
We'll have to start calling you "The Mole"


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

BTW, when I work with a motor that I am not really too sure of I add pigtails with automotive fuses in line.
That way if I do something stupid, I blow a fuse.. so each power leg in gets the pigtail attached before it touches the motor.

That way I don't burn a winding up.


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 15, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> In the photo of the data plate you can see the power coming in at the bottom as two little lines
> Also, you don't need straps you can use short wires
> Those eyeballs can be pretty handy sometimes LOL
> We'll have to start calling you "The Mole"


Thank you Mark. I only recently got myself reading glasses.....maybe use those more?


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 15, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> BTW, when I work with a motor that I am not really too sure of I add pigtails with automotive fuses in line.
> That way if I do something stupid, I blow a fuse.. so each power leg in gets the pigtail attached before it touches the motor.
> 
> That way I don't burn a winding up.


That's a good plan.


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 15, 2021)

Just get an eye transplant like in "Minority Report"
Frankly I'm so nearsighted I have to constantly take my glasses off to do anything close up


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 15, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> Just get an eye transplant like in "Minority Report"


 
I "see".... you are on a role today....


----------



## Suzuki4evr (Dec 27, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> I'll see if I can put together a quick sketch- stay tuned
> -M
> Question: the motor wires have those little white beads on them- do those have legible numbers?
> Here's a motor plate diagram which seems to match yours:  The bottom two configurations represent clockwise and counter-clockwise for 220 volts
> You strap across as shown and the power comes in the bottom


Hi Mark.

My brother inlaw came around,I spoke to you about him back when you were helping me with the wiring of my mill VFD, and he showed me this configurations and we wired it for running forward and it is running perfect. Now I don't know why there is different configurations for the same tipe of motor,but this one works. I am curious that if I am going to connect the wiring like the information plate you posted,if it will also work,but I'm not willing to take the chance though. Would it work,what do you think?

Michael


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 27, 2021)

Yes that would work for a single voltage 240 volt motor, with a single run winding plus start winding.
The previous ground we covered was for a dual voltage 120/240 v motor with two run windings plus start winding  so you have to be aware of which type you are working with- they may both have U, V, and Z terminals but may be configured differently internally
-M


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 28, 2021)

For a single voltage motor like that above, the start and run capacitors would need to be rated for the full 240 volts which is usually NOT the case with the dual voltage motors.  The dual voltage motor only applies 120 volts to the start circuit in both the high and low voltage cases
so it allows using lower voltage capacitors
-M


----------

