# Help getting the first milling essentials



## graham-xrf (Dec 7, 2020)

After the unabashed urgings of the HM rabbit hole squad, and wanting to get ahead of possible future import charges and general financial mayhem, I did purchase a little mill-drill machine.  --> *Thread HERE*

It has not even arrived yet, but now I have to get together at least enough to cut the first test chips.




The T-Slots are 10mm. They are the sort of thing one can make, but I got a few 10mm T's with 8mm threads from eBay to get started with.

What about a drawbar? I have no idea whether the mill comes with one. I tried the HM search. maybe I can make one. I take it that trying to mill with a MT3 taper mounted tool, and no drawbar, can be a recipe for injury and broken stuff?

The spindle has taper MT3. I guess getting a first milling cutter is next - but which one? HSS or carbide? How many flutes?
Should it be 2 cutters minimum? End mill + something else. Should it include fly cutter?

Humdrum stuff. I suppose some kind of clamp-down things. What is best here?

Duh! Parallels! Can I cut up some ground stock? How to harden it? Maybe just throw them into the woodburner/

A milling vise of some sort. Split type? Tilty over up to 45° type?

Can one do milling OK without a cooling pump kit?

A wobbly edge finder?

Oh yeah - what about DRO?

I only ever messed with a lathe, and that not much. Now I have the South Bends, albeit one in pieces
Am..mm I sh.. sh..showing s-s-signs of n-n-n-new aaaaaa-d d d dictions already? (Twitch)?


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## Jim F (Dec 7, 2020)

It has a drawbar, good there.
you need collets for holding tooling.
a Vise.
Hold down sets are a nice thing, but not essential.
Parallel set, yes.
Edge finder,yes.
Cheap set of endmills, 2 and 4 flute, yes. Start cheap, you will break them...........
Drill chuck, yes.
Tap follower,yes.
Others will add to my list.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 7, 2020)

Congrats Graham!
For that size mill, I have seen a machinist style vise used with great success. Check out Stefan Gotteswinter's Youtube channel and you'll see one in action.


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## Jim F (Dec 7, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Congrats Graham!
> For that size mill, I have seen a machinist style vise used with great success. Check out Stefan Gotteswinter's Youtube channel and you'll see one in action.


This is another source.
He made his in Al, but it could be made with steel, also.


			A Screwless Vise for the Taig Mill


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## Jakedaawg (Dec 7, 2020)

In for the alerts.  I need a bunch of stuff also.  If anyone posts specific things maybe non-china names could also be listed?


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## graham-xrf (Dec 7, 2020)

My thanks for the replies so far folks.
I expect to put drills and taps in the chuck. I thought milling cutters go in the MT3 taper spindle.
Then I see the available sets of milling cutters with parallel shanks.
My ignorance of the norms here is complete. Does one use them with collets? Even in a chuck?

I plan to trawl the stuff and apply some logic. I will figure it out soon.
I have to let the planet turn some now.


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## Jim F (Dec 7, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> My thanks for the replies so far folks.
> I expect to put drills and taps in the chuck. I thought milling cutters go in the MT3 taper spindle.
> Then I see the available sets of milling cutters with parallel shanks.
> My ignorance of the norms here is complete. Does one use them with collets? Even in a chuck?
> ...


Endmills go in collets or mill holders, never in a drill chuck, same with taps, never in a drill chuck.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 7, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> My thanks for the replies so far folks.
> I expect to put drills and taps in the chuck. I thought milling cutters go in the MT3 taper spindle.
> Then I see the available sets of milling cutters with parallel shanks.
> My ignorance of the norms here is complete. Does one use them with collets? Even in a chuck?
> ...


The advice I received was to go with an ER32 collet chuck for end mills and other related tooling. I found on with an MT3 taper and it has worked very well for me. I'm rounding out my collet range so that I can also use them for drills as the drill chick I have eats up a lot of Z-axis.


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## Mitch Alsup (Dec 7, 2020)

What about a drawbar? Nobody sells a Mill without its drawbar

The spindle has taper MT3. I guess getting a first milling cutter is next - but which one? HSS or carbide? How many flutes?
Should it be 2 cutters minimum? End mill + something else. Should it include fly cutter?

We are going to recommend HSS to get started, 4 flutes for steel, 2 flutes for aluminum.
Standardize your setup around one end mill (mine is 1/2" but I have a bigger mill; I started with 3/8ths but wnet bigger)
The $15 fly cutters on (everywhere) are just junk.......

Humdrum stuff. I suppose some kind of clamp-down things. What is best here?

You are going to want a vise (4") a hold down kit (sized to the t-slots in your bed) and this should cover 80%.
Later you will add a rotary table (or 2), various collets to hold mills and parts, files, deburring tools, machinest hammer, parallels, angle blocks, 1-2-3 blocks,.....

Duh! Parallels! Can I cut up some ground stock? How to harden it? Maybe just throw them into the woodburner/

After you use parallels 500 times, you will be in a position to make your own parallels to the required accuracy and precision, so, yes, buy them!

A milling vise of some sort. Split type? Tilty over up to 45° type?

Flat !!! those tilty things are not as stiff. And take it off the roundy thing, too. Flat and right to the bed is as stiff as you can get.

Can one do milling OK without a cooling pump kit?

Slower RPMs and feeds generates less heat and thereby less need for coolant.

A wobbly edge finder?

Absofriggenlutely !

Oh yeah - what about DRO?

Later grasshopper, later..........


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## markba633csi (Dec 7, 2020)

You can make your own parallels.  Plain old bar stock will serve. Heck I've even used pieces of wood and popsicle sticks for odd setups. 
Your machine is light duty so probably want to stick with 1/4" and 3/8" endmills for cutting steel- for aluminum you can go a little larger, but beware of chatter.  Use eye protection especially for cutting brass; the little chips are devilish and fly everywhere.  Watch your fingers too, endmills are wicked sharp.
-Mark


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## Lo-Fi (Dec 8, 2020)

I'll chime in with a few links being the right side of the pond 

Parallels:









						Oxford Hardened & Ground Steel Parallel Set 18 Pie| at Zoro
					

Oxford - Hardened & Ground Steel Parallel Set 18 Piece available at Zoro.co.uk - UK's Leading Supplier of DIY Tools and Supplies'




					www.zoro.co.uk
				




After much research I settled on that set. Having a range has been a godsend.

Vise:





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						ARC Versatile Milling Vices - with swivel base - Arc Euro Trade
					

ARC Versatile milling vices with Angle Lock clamping. Can be used on its own or with the swivel base supplied. Sizes: 80mm, 100mm & 125mm.




					www.arceurotrade.co.uk
				




I settled on the 125mm version for the Bridgeport, but you're probably looking for the 100mm. Essentially the same as the Glacern that our American friends rate. Needs a little finishing here and there but it ain't half bad for the money. Having said that, I've not once used the swivel base, and something like this might be better suited to your machine:






__





						ARC Versatile SG Iron Milling Vices - Arc Euro Trade
					

ARC Versatile SG (spheroidal graphite) iron milling vices with Angle Lock clamping. May be used horizontally or vertically. Sizes: 100mm & 160mm




					www.arceurotrade.co.uk
				








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						Precision Tool Vices Type 2 - Arc Euro Trade
					

Precision Tool Vices Type 2




					www.arceurotrade.co.uk
				




Step clamps:









						Clamping Kit 58 Piece M8 Stud : 10mm Slot  New Style  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Clamping Kit 58 Piece M8 Stud : 10mm Slot  New Style at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



					www.ebay.co.uk
				








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						58pc Clamping Sets - Arc Euro Trade
					

Clamping sets for T-slot width: 10mm, 12mm, 14mm or 16mm. Includes: 6 clamping bars, 12 step blocks, 24 studs, 6 T-nuts, 6 flange nuts, 4 coupling nuts.




					www.arceurotrade.co.uk
				





Something like that. Lots of sets around to suit.

End mills:





__





						HSS End Mills Associated Production Tools
					

Hss High Speed Steel End Mills General Use, End Milling Cutters for Roughing, Finishing, Stainless, Titanium Alloys, Un-coated for Aluminium.



					www.shop-apt.co.uk
				




I've found their tools to be excellent. I'd go for some HSS to start with. Grab yourself a 12mm rougher:









						12mm Diameter Fine Pitch Ripper 4 Flute HSS High Speed Steel 8% Cobalt TiAlN Coated
					

12mm Diameter Fine Pitch Ripper 4 Flute HSS High Speed Steel 8% Cobalt TiAlN Coated.



					www.shop-apt.co.uk
				




And a little range of diameters:





__





						4 Flute End Mills HSS 8% Cobalt TiAlN Coated 40HRC Associated Production Tools
					

4 Flute High Speed Steel End Mills TiALN Coated for General Use on materials up to 40HRC



					www.shop-apt.co.uk
				




You'll need collets or end mill holders to suit, but my knowledge is lacking in MT territory.

A fly cutter is definitely a good Idea:

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Cutting-Tools/Fly-Cutters/Fly-Cutter-Holders-Taper-Shank
I like this coolant:









						1L Quaker Houghton Dromus B (Shell) Water Soluble Cutting Fluid Coolant 20L Suds 5060887200172 | eBay
					

Quaker Houghton Dromus B is a general purpose soluble oil for light to moderate duty machining on a wide range of materials.



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




No need for a pump; mixing some up in a spill proof kids paint cup and applying with a brush is quite sufficient.

That ought to get you going


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## rock_breaker (Dec 8, 2020)

Harold Hall in his book _Milling_ found on Amazon describes how to make tee-nuts and parallels on your mill, useful book. An angle bracket project holder helps to make parallels etc.. You are probably aware of endmill length   and clearance from spindle to mill table. 
Have a good day
Ray


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## AmericanMachinist (Dec 8, 2020)

If you watch media from time to time, there are a number of great YouTube channels with varying levels of how-to, humor, and everything in between.  

Keith Rucker is great all around.   Abom79 gives a ton of great tips and tricks.  This Old Tony shows a lot of clever solutions with humor that will make more sense as you learn about machining.  There are a ton more, way too many to list.

If you find you enjoy the content, it's a great way to pick up knowledge over time.

And then of course there's the old school textbook route too


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## erikmannie (Dec 8, 2020)

Boring is always fun. You could consider a boring head & a set of brazed carbide boring bars.


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## Lo-Fi (Dec 8, 2020)

....but be aware that most commonly available cheap brazed carbide boring bars are total garbage, having completely the wrong geometry and require substantial grinding work to do anything useful.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 8, 2020)

Yep - I knew I could rely on you guys!
Given the subject title of this thread, it is going to get searched and lurked by beginners, and there is already a ton of good stuff.
My thanks to @Lo-Fi for the UK links.

@Jim F answers the question about what a chuck is used for. 
So my *My Mill Rules #1* is - Chucks are only ever used for holding drill bits.
This naturally leads to the #1 consequentials. Cutters go in collets, or tapers. Taps also.
I am bound to discover more no-no's.

Just for information, I spotter a batch of cutters going cheap in eBay auction. Maybe the reason is the threaded ends.




Only now that my attention is on cutters, I see it, but I never noticed it before. Is this a "standard" or common thing? Would cutters like that still be usable in a collet? That would look a bit short, but what do I know? FYI - I passed on those.
*
My Mill Rule #2. Pay attention to collets!*
I am going to go with the advice from *@DavidR8 *that ER32 is a OK collet size range to work in a MT3
The #10 post from *@markba633csi* suggests that 1/4" or 3/8" endmills are a suitable size. So 6mm to 10mm.
I looked at charts on --> This handy page --> *https://littlemachineshop.com/info/er_collet_sizes.php*
ER32 can do 1mm to 20mm, and is, I suppose, about the largest that can fit up a Morse Taper MT3

I know one can splurge on a whole set, or take the approach of building up a set, buying the size as the need arises.
Here we are going to run into "which collets"? Chinese or not? Can they be crap? What about the MT3 collet chuck? What are the warning signs? I suppose if the deal looks too good to be true, it probably is.
Given the South Bends have MT3 spindle as well, the collet set can be used there also.

*The vise.*
As important as the collets. Pretty much you don't do anything without it. I might go for something like *@Lo-Fi* suggests.

*Parallels?*
Sure, we can make them. The thing is, ground bar is already super accurate. It looks as if one can simply cut up some hardenable bar, finish the ends, and heat them up some with a plumbing torch.

Just for some orientation. Consider (say) a first *collet set of 6* covering from about 3/16" to 3/4" *plus collet chuck*. (about 4.5mm to 20mm).
For reasonable quality, *would $120 to $150 be enough?* (about £90 to £113)

Thanks for *@AmericanMachinist* providing the link to Abom79. Oodles of stuff there. I do consider YT as my greatest education tool, but I also know that there are not enough hours in my life to watch even the stuff in my line of interest. Links from HM members help zero in on stuff they already filtered.

Thanks *@Mitch Alsup* as well. 4 flutes for steel. 2 flutes for aluminium!
I have quite a lot to absorb here. I will post questions/stumbles as they arise.
One thing that is not up to the job is the re-purposed COVID-19 plastic face shield. I take it that without protection, hot chips _will_ make it into the eyes !


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## graham-xrf (Dec 8, 2020)

*Re: Collets Size Range Choices*
I get it that when the MT3 collet chuck is used in a smaller mill like mine, then the ER size range can, and maybe should be smaller because we should not be trying to use tool sizes more appropriate to to bigger mills.

@DavidR8 used ER32, and is very happy with it. I thought the choice very good, since MT3 also fits the South Bend Lathe(s)
When the thought is that used with the work held in the collet (for lathe) as opposed to the tool in the collet (for mill), then perhaps the bigger the better.

I see that one can get a 15-piece set of ER-40 with a MT3 collet chuck. That one happens to start at 3mm, ending at 26mm, but in principle allows holding into a 1" diameter part. If one wants to do very small work, it has to be ER-11 or ER-16.

Aside from milling teeny tiny, like Stefan Gotteswinter with his 0.5mm milling cutter, and how he knocks on the collets to get 10 microns run-out, what are the motivations to settling on a ER size?  Do mill owners usually just have more than one ER size set? Does the size of the supplied drawbar have influence on what can be used?

Please forgive that some of us guys just don't know this stuff yet.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 8, 2020)

As the collet chuck goes up in size, ER16, 20, 32, 40 the overall dimensions of the chuck necessarily increases as does their holding capacity. 
If a person needed to get into a small area with a 1/8” end mill then the sheer size of an ER40 chuck could be a problem whereas an ER16 might work better. 
I’ve not run into a situation where the ER32 has been too large but it depends on the type of work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## markba633csi (Dec 8, 2020)

The alternative to getting into ER- style setups is to just buy a couple of MT3 to straight shank collets, and a drill chuck with a straight shank.
Then you can accept endmills or drill chuck.  One inexpensive way to get started. 
-M


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## projectnut (Dec 8, 2020)

There has been a lot of information put forward as to what to buy and what to make.  If you're new to the hobby I would stick with Jim F's short list for the near term.  You can spend many times what the machine cost and still barely scratch the surface of the tools and tooling available.  If you jump in with both feet it's likely you'll buy things you may never use or need and just waste money.

Get your feet on the ground with minimal cost and learn from there.  As your interest and skills progress you can buy what you need.  One piece of advice that has always stuck with me came from a previous boss.  If *YOU THINK* you need a tool or tooling to complete a job you probably do need it.  If *A SALESMAN* tries to tell you you need a tool or tooling you probably don't.  Consider everyone here giving advise as a salesman.  They're not spending their money, but rather telling you how to spend your money.

Keep in mind this is your first machine.  In a year or two you may find you would like a different machine.  If you load up on tooling and accessories specific to this machine you may find they won't work on another.  If that's the case you'll have to once again spend money on tooling.


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## Jim F (Dec 8, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Yep - I knew I could rely on you guys!
> Given the subject title of this thread, it is going to get searched and lurked by beginners, and there is already a ton of good stuff.
> My thanks to @Lo-Fi for the UK links.
> 
> ...


Taps go in a tap wrench, either style.
Those endmills with threads will work, they are from a co. over that makes a holder for them, but is not require.
As a side note, I have 3, 1/4" versions of those endmills.








						Threaded endmills ?
					

These came in a box of end mills from an estate sale. Anyone ever see these? I can make out "Clarkson", 1/4 and England on the shanks.




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## graham-xrf (Dec 8, 2020)

projectnut said:


> There has been a lot of information put forward as to what to buy and what to make.  If you're new to the hobby I would stick with Jim F's short list for the near term.  You can spend many times what the machine cost and still barely scratch the surface of the tools and tooling available.  If you jump in with both feet it's likely you'll buy things you may never use or need and just waste money.
> 
> Get your feet on the ground with minimal cost and learn from there.  As your interest and skills progress you can buy what you need.  One piece of advice that has always stuck with me came from a previous boss.  If *YOU THINK* you need a tool or tooling to complete a job you probably do need it.  If *A SALESMAN* tries to tell you you need a tool or tooling you probably don't.  Consider everyone here giving advise as a salesman.  They're not spending their money, but rather telling you how to spend your money.
> 
> Keep in mind this is your first machine.  In a year or two you may find you would like a different machine.  If you load up on tooling and accessories specific to this machine you may find they won't work on another.  If that's the case you'll have to once again spend money on tooling.


On this one, pretty much everything I get so far would be useful on the lathe, or can be kept should the machine someday get replaced for something bigger. I am not too worried about that. By the time I am a far enough into the stuff I would apply it to, this kit won't owe me anything much.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 8, 2020)

Check out the Cormak "Starter Kit"
Seen on the Cormak site, the tooling set that can be purchased. It's *£732.14  ($981.06)*. [Edit: at rate $1.34 --> £1.00]




I can see the collet chuck, and what the carbide muncher at bottom left does seems obvious, but an explanation of bottom row, item second along, from the left would be nice. This description is from the manufacturer site..

Set contains:
1. Set of end mills (9 pcs.):

    NFPA FI  3,0   8/52 Z4 HB6 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT
    NFPA FI  4,0  11/55 Z4 HB6 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT
    NFPA FI  5,0  13/57 Z4 HB6 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT
    NFPA FI  6,0  13/57 Z4 HB6 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT
    NFPA FI  8,0  19/69 Z4 HB10 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT
    NFPA FI 10,0  22/72 Z4 HB10 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT
    NFPA FI 12,0  26/83 Z4 HB12 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT
    NFPA FI 14,0  26/83 Z4 HB12 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT
    NFPA FI 16,0  32/92 Z4 HB16 HSSE BK-MN EL-CUT

2. Set of sleeves 7618-32 2-20 (18 pcs.)

3. Set of taps M3-M12 DIN-371B / DIN-376B (6H) HSSE OX CZP-8 OPTI

4. Set of taps M3-M12 DIN-371C / DIN-376C R40 (6H) HSSE OX CZP-8 OPTI

5. Set of drill bits NWKA FI 1.00-13.00MM (25 pcs) HSS PRO

6. Tool holder MK3.A70.ER32

7. Spindle 7430-3-22-51 APX

8. Folding cutter head FI 63.0 K90 ° 22/47 Z3 d22 220.17

9. TPKN 1603 PDSKR SM25 plate set (10 pcs.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I am going to pass on that lot for now. Seems a tad steep, but then again, I don't really know the value in some of that stuff.

This experience is made a little strange for me because most folk already have the shop before the machine. I am  into stuff like getting the order in on items for the shop construction. The blocks, render, roof tiles, insulation, the water supply bits, steel mesh and rebar. Egg-on-face moment is to get all excited, and thinking about the "uncrating" moment, and realize that benches and storage deserved some foresight. Said mill would be sat there on empty floor, with vise and drawbar beside it, and maybe a few collets rolling about! 

[EDIT: Am I now going to first get into woodwork? !  ]


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## Jim F (Dec 8, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Check out the Cormak "Starter Kit"
> Seen on the Cormak site, the tooling set that can be purchased. It's *£732.14  ($973.70)*.
> 
> View attachment 346555
> ...


that is the arbor for the facemill.


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## Buffalo21 (Dec 8, 2020)

Cubic Dollars


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## graham-xrf (Dec 8, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> Cubic Dollars


?? Sorry Jack - that one went over me. Had me looking for a typo. Did I mess up?
Re: Dollars. Yes. The pound-dollar rate has been going all over the place. Today it is $1.34.
Regardless, pounds or dollars, I thought there were waaaay to much of them needed!

Nearly a $Grand needed for that stuff*!    £732.14  ($973.70)*.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 8, 2020)

Jim F said:


> that is the arbor for the facemill.


OK -  then facemill = the carbide carousel with the 4 inserts. The 10-set of triangular carbide bits don't appear to have holes.
I don't yet understand how that lot goes together, but I will figure it out shortly.


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## Flyinfool (Dec 8, 2020)

first question is do you have a specific part or type of parts that you will be making? This can dictate the needed tooling.
If there is no specific need up front then start minimalist with the understanding that for a while most things you do will require expenditure on more tooling.

By staying with this small amount of the basics you will have more cash to buy better quality, you will apreciate that down the road. Buying a lot of cheap junk just to get a lot up front that you may have no use for will have you replacing it down the road with the good stuff you should have got up front.

The basics will be;
drill chuck
Drill bits
Hold down device, clamp set and or vice.
End mills 6 to 10 mm (1/4 to 3/8)
Holders for end mills
Tap wrench and set of taps.


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## markba633csi (Dec 8, 2020)

I would not purchase a face-mill right away, use conventional endmills first for a while.  You may find a simple fly-cutter is more suitable for your machine.
-Mark


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## graham-xrf (Dec 8, 2020)

Flyinfool said:


> first question is do you have a specific part or type of parts that you will be making? This can dictate the needed tooling.
> If there is no specific need up front then start minimalist with the understanding that for a while most things you do will require expenditure on more tooling.
> 
> By staying with this small amount of the basics you will have more cash to buy better quality, you will apreciate that down the road. Buying a lot of cheap junk just to get a lot up front that you may have no use for will have you replacing it down the road with the good stuff you should have got up front.
> ...


We are partly there already. The mill comes with a chuck. I have drill bits, including multiples of those I use (and break) the most of.
I will be getting the clamp set suggested by @Lo-Fi , and one of the milling vices.
I have ordered a pair of end mills. I have been told I am likely to break them fairly regularly.
I am still shopping around over a collet holder, and a few collets in a set.

I do have tap wrench sets, and a hand wrench, as one does when messing with engines, but they are the cheapo carbon steel kind. HSS is probably now needed. I also need to pick through the stuff that came with the lathe. There are various reamers and suchlike, still in the anti-rust paper, and little boxes of drill sets.

I have to thank all you guys so much. Really supportive!


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## sycle1 (Dec 8, 2020)

My mill looks very similar to the one pictured in your post. Congrats!
Be aware some of the paperwork that you get the specs from for these Asian made Mills are out of date or just plain wrong.
With my mill the paperwork said it had a MT2 taper with a metric 10mm drawbar. That's what I was expecting.
What actually turned up was a machine with an MT3 taper and a Whitworth 1/2 inch drawbar thead.
A lot of the new tooling uses MT3 with 12mm metric drawbar thread.


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## Jim F (Dec 8, 2020)

1 thing to add to my list, zero flute countersinks.
Wish I still had my set I got rid of years ago.....


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## graham-xrf (Dec 9, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> I would not purchase a face-mill right away, use conventional endmills first for a while.  You may find a simple fly-cutter is more suitable for your machine.
> -Mark


I did see in a YT video last night, the guy saying that his fly-cutter flings chips into places in his shop where he never knew there were still places.
His solution was window film, arranged around his mill like a transparent curtain. He says it saves 90% of the cleanup task!


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## graham-xrf (Dec 9, 2020)

sycle1 said:


> My mill looks very similar to the one pictured in your post. Congrats!
> Be aware some of the paperwork that you get the specs from for these Asian made Mills are out of date or just plain wrong.
> With my mill the paperwork said it had a MT2 taper with a metric 10mm drawbar. That's what I was expecting.
> What actually turned up was a machine with an MT3 taper and a Whitworth 1/2 inch drawbar thead.
> A lot of the new tooling uses MT3 with 12mm metric drawbar thread.


I just had the phone call from the delivery firm. It is to be Friday 
Re: Things Asian? This one isn't.
The factory is in Poland, though the mix of German and Polish literature suggests it might be a place where both is known.
The manual(s) are in English.

I did have a little "wobble" because of the Morse Taper designations being "MK" instead of "MT", but members here assured me that MK3 means MT3.
It seems Taper = Konus in German, which is where the "K" comes from.

My first shot was to try for a PM machine. I gave up on that. Imports to UK of that brand are just too fraught!


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## brino (Dec 9, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Check out the Cormak "Starter Kit" Seen on the Cormak site



........it's strange that the picture of that kit that you showed in post #23 shows a face-mill head that appears to take square inserts, right beside a package of triangular inserts.




Likely no matter as it sounds like you're avoiding that kit.

Graham, I don't know if you have one from your lathe work, but a DTI (dial-test indicator) is very useful for centring an existing hole under the mill spindle. Of course for low-precision work you can get away with using a tapered point to align the work before clamping it down.

-brino


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## macardoso (Dec 9, 2020)

My first couple things to buy for a mill would be (in order):

6" digital calipers
Vise
Parallels
Hold down clamping set
Edge finder (I prefer electronic)
Drill chuck
115 piece drill set (spend a bit of money to get something better than the bottom of the barrel import set - from experience)
MT3 collet set (1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4"). You really don't need much more than that to start unless you get an odd lot of tools.
1/4" carbide endmill
3/8" HSS endmill
Machinists square
Taps of various sizes, get the common ones and acquire more later
Tap wrench
0-1" micrometer
Dial test indicator (0.0005" graduations, Swiss style, extended range, LINK)
Boring head with couple of different boring bars
This set will get you enough to do nice work on plate stock with precision holes and bores. Surprisingly this makes up maybe 75% of the work done on a mill.

Past this there are a bajillion things you can buy. My bonus list would be:

Over/Under reamer set 1/8-1/2" (great for creating press/slip fits on dowels)
Facemill or flycutter (I still don't have one after 10 years of doing this)
Dial test indicator (0.0001" graduations, Swiss style, extended range, LINK)
0-6" micrometer set
Surface plate and height gage
Assorted milling cutters (carbide endmills, chamfer cutters, keyseat cutters, corner rounding cutters, etc.)


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## graham-xrf (Dec 10, 2020)

@macardoso : Thank you for the list. In going through it, I already check out OK on much of the stuff.
*Re: Measuring stuff*
I use the cheaper Chinese with the South Bend Lathe for getting "nearly there", or for non-critical sizing.
When want real precision, I get out the better kit.

I have more quality calipers than most could need. Like many, I have one of the low-cost eBay variety, and the "Silverline" brand is handy, with the big digits. I have taken it apart and "modified" it a little, to stone outer sharp edges, tighten up the mechanism, etc. It's pretty good for the price. The number it delivers can be this way or that, depending on thumb pressure by about 0.0005". It disagrees with the gauge block by about 0.0007, when it is open to 50mm.

Then comes the "good" ones. I have the iGaging OriginCal. This one is an "absolute" type like Mitutoyo. You can zip it about, and close up with any pressure you like, it always knows where it is, and it always zeros. The only feature it does not have is auto-turn-off, but even if one forgets, it seems not to matter much. It does not chew batteries. I had a quick inventory..




--> *iGaging OriginCal - IP54 *

The Mitutoyos are the dial caliper and the 25mm metric 0.001mm.
The gauge blocks are Bowers Metrology Cal Lab BS 4311 Grade 1
The 300mm bigger caliper is a Kanon in both inches and cm.
The Electronic Digitals are 0-26mm and 25-52mm Chinese, and checked out on the gauge blocks.
The little Moore & Wright is one from the complete set of internal micrometers I refurbished and calibrated.

There is also (not shown) two vernier height gauges with carbide wedge scribes, the three 0.02mm/m levels, various Rabone Chesterman rules, two sizes sine bar, a Chinese vernier protractor, a 2ft straight edge 1/4" thick  x 1.5" wide with beveled one edge, and a 3ft (floppy) straight edge 1/16" thick x 2" wide.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*2. The Vise - there may be discussion here!*
Or "Vice" as in the British dictionary, and they don't mean decadent deviance!
This I still have yet to get, and here we run into all sorts of choices. The advice from @Mitch Alsup is to not use the type with a rotational base, not the type that can tilt up at a settable angle, or worse - both! Flat down hard on the T-slots is stiffest. I am not sure my relatively smaller mill would shove hard enough to make it significant.

We may have to have experts discuss these for newbies. I exclude simple hand vises, and with small 2-axis cross slides as used on drill presses.

There are several sorts:
a) As 100mm (4") vise on vertical axle rotation, with 1 degrees graduations. Sometimes undeservedly referred to as "precision".
    Can be had for about *$60 to $70 (£50 ish)*



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

b) There is a type called *"self centering"*. It has half the thread right-handed, and the other half left-handed. This example is a 3" (75mm) size.
    Is that a handy feature? This one goes for *$87 (£65)*. Do we want a mill vise to do that?



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

c) It can tilt in 2 axes. I guess this is the one @Mitch Alsup meant was a bad choice!



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

d) Is this "Precision"? Is it "Ultra-Precision"? It looks kinda swish. It might also be Uber-'n-Mega expensive!
    This one is from the Orange Vise Co. Don't know the price. I think you probably need a lawyer and an appointment to find out!



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

e) There is the 2-part, so-called "infinite vise".  This one is *$215 (£160.71)* from CORMAK. I guess it lets you set for wide stuff. Given the cost, I guess it is a useful feature, but experts please comment.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

f) There is the one-axis-only tilt. This one also from CORMAK  for* $111.35 (£83.10)*



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

g) There are many that include the word "Precision" This one is a 4-inch from UK eBay --> *4" SuperLock Vise*
     This for *$91.72 (£68.45)*



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This posting has got big enough already, and we are only on item #2 of the list from @macardoso .

Please experts, comment freely about the goods, and bads of the above. I can sniff out the quality brands, and I am sure there are some that can be mentioned with confidence in supplying products you can trust. Do you have any that let you down? Have you ever refurbished one of these? What are things not to do? What is the deal with the removable handle looking a bit like something you would use to crank a 1940's Ford? Is that more convenient? Why do some 2nd-hand 4" and 6" mill vises ask prices well above these new ones/

Things I would like to know are .. are they always hardened? Do they have bearings? Does the thread shaft wear out? Do they always have gibs?

I will trawl choices on further kit in another posting.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 10, 2020)

My vise ad'vice' is to get the best one can afford because it is the foundation of your work. While you may not be hogging off gobs of metal in a single pass, any inaccuracies will translate to the work.
Out of square jaws, jaws that lift when tightened all contribute to inaccurate work. And while I don't think you are sub-contracting for British Airways to make jet engine parts, out of square part are just annoying.
I could not stomach the price of a 4" Kurt or Orange vise so I opted for a Glacern 4". It's as accurate as I can measure with my tenths indicator and finished very well.
I would not get anything that swivels or tilts.
The tool makers style vises such as what Stefan Gotteswinter uses seems to be a smart choice for a small mill.


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## rock_breaker (Dec 10, 2020)

I had a lathe long before  getting a mill at which time I  knew my  machining skills were (and still are) minimal, so started browsing for books. Found several  texts on Amazon; settled on_ Machineshop Operations and Setups._ 4th Ed. by Lascoe, Nelson and Porter. _Machinery's Handbook_ seems to be the "Bible" as you probably know. I just recently discovered Mr. Pete 222 on _you tube._ There are several more at his level of expertise. This website, You tube, Machine Shop Operations and Set ups plus How to Run a Lathe have given me confidence in my shop. 
If you haven't already done so you may want to add some literature to your list.
Have a good day and enjoy that mill.
Ray


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## macardoso (Dec 10, 2020)

Nice collection on the measuring instruments! It is great to have good quality measuring tools before you even start machining.

On the vise, I like the style of the last one you posted. I have the Shars version. A 4" is really all out need for most work on a machine this size. You use the clamping kit for most anything else. A HUGE plus with that vise is you can flip it on it's side to clamp a part that might be too tall or long to clamp in the vise normally. I have done this a few times since the Z travel on these machines is very limited.






						4'' SINGLE LOCK DOWN PRECISION MILLING MACHINE VISE
					

<!-- <ul><li>Jaw Width: 4"</li><li>Jaw Opening: 4"</li><li>Jaw Depth: 1-1/2"</li><li>Overall Length: 11"</li><li>Bed Height: 2.8"</li><li>Overall Height: 4.8"</li><li>center distance between jaw's bolting screw: 3.8"<br /></li><li>Clamping Force: 9,000 lb




					www.shars.com


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## graham-xrf (Dec 10, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> My vise ad'vice' is to get the best one can afford because it is the foundation of your work. While you may not be hogging off gobs of metal in a single pass, any inaccuracies will translate to the work.
> Out of square jaws, jaws that lift when tightened all contribute to inaccurate work. And while I don't think you are sub-contracting for British Airways to make jet engine parts, parts that are out of square are just annoying.
> I could not stomach the price of a 4" Kurt or Orange vise so I opted for a Glacern 4". It's as accurate as I can measure with my tenths indicator and finished very well.
> I would not get anything that swivels or tilts.
> The tool makers style vises such as what Stefan Gotteswinter uses seems to be a smart choice for a small mill.


Thanks David.
While I am not sure that it has a flat side that can allow it to be turned on it's side like in  @macardoso 's picture, I provide the link to their site.
The standard vise is *$349*. Then there is a range of other options.

--> *Glacern 4" Vise*




The following are optional extras..
4-Inch Chomper Hard Jaws       *   $149.99*
4-Inch Hardened Vee Jaw    *         $99.00*
4-Inch Serrated Hard Jaws  *         $139.99*
4-inch Original Hard Jaws (Pair)  *$59.99*  (I guess if you happen to accidently "mill" part of the vise*.)*
Soft Jaws - 4 Inch Aluminum       *$55.00*
Extra Wide 6 AL Soft Jaws for 4" *$99.00*
Crank Handle for 4-inch Vise       *$29.00*

These take the additionals to an art form. A "work stop"  is *$99.99*.
This begs the questions. .
Why hardened jaws anyway?
Why soft jaws?
Why serrated jaws?
How hard are standard jaws?  (Discovered the bed and jaw places are HRC 50)

I know this seems like I dig hard, but with almost every new thing I see, and every great reply I get, the mind finds a new question.
The thing that decided me on the vise style is that there is advantage in the design of the last of the set I posted. The same flat side type is seen in the crushingly expensive Orange Vise Co products) Clean sides that allow turning on it's side like in @macardoso 's picture.

I digress, but that too shows stuff to get the beginner curious. A slab of aluminium under with enough threaded holes to have wore out one's lifetime supply of that size tap!


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## Flyinfool (Dec 10, 2020)

You want smooth hard jaws for most situations. The hard with the Vee is ok, makes it easier to hold round stuff.
Serrated jaws will leave marks on your work piece.
Soft jaws are easy to machine for holding special shapes.

DO NOT accidentally mill your vice jaws.....


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## mikey (Dec 10, 2020)

Graham, your table is 180 x 700mm or about 7 X 28.  I think the largest vise that will fit would be a 4" vise; larger than that and it will interfere with Y-axis travel or hang a long way off in front. 

Whichever vise you buy, buy a decent one. As DavidR8 said, the vise is the foundation of your milling machine and it will hold about 90% of all the work you do on the mill. If you have to fight to get the part square in a cheap vise you will regret it every single time you have to clamp something in it. 

There are only two general types of milling vises, although there are tons of variants of each. One is the machine vise like Kurt, Glacern, Orange, Wilton and others. The other is a screwless vise, often called a tool maker's vise. The difference between the two is speed and accuracy. Machine vises are very fast to use and good vises have an anglelok feature that pulls the work down so it doesn't rise up as pressure is applied. Screwless vises also pull the work down but you have to move the dynamic jaw into position before you can tighten the jaws so they are slightly slower in use. 

Screwless vises are almost uniformly more accurate and more rigid than a milling vise. They are ground on every surface and even the import vises boast squareness within 0.0002" all over. I own three of these: a Wilton precision 2" and 3" vise and a Chinese 3" one that I bought decades ago. All surfaces on all 3 of these vises measure under 0.0002" relative to each other so they are damned accurate. All are more accurate than my 4" Kurt vise and while they are slower in use, we are talking about seconds, not minutes. 

If you must cut corners, do not do it with your vise. If I had to economize somehow, I would opt for a good screwless vise. Vertex from Taiwan makes decent ones. Groz from India makes these for Wilton nowadays and my 3" Wilton is made by them. Don't overlook these vises; they are a very good option. You should be able to find a decent 4" vise on your side of the pond.

If you must go with a milling vise, spend the money and get a Kurt or Glacern vise; they are worth the cost. Buy once, cry once.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 10, 2020)

Thanks @mikey , @Flyinfool , @DavidR8 , @macardoso and others.

Let us stress this a bit!
*FIRST MILL OWNER NEWBIES TAKE NOTE**!
DO NOT SKIMP ON THE VISE!*

I had my suspicions that the *vise* was critically important - at least as much as the spindle, and the ways under it.
We are provided with respected brand names mentioned..
Glacern
Kurt
Wilton (made by Groz)
Groz (from India)
Vertex

Of course, this makes me (mill vise beginner) research out exactly what the terms mean, and whether or not some vise I am contemplating has the desired feature, such as anglelok (is that a trademark term for one brand)? I have figured out "screwless". Kind of obvious, because it's in the name, but Google images makes it all clear.

The mill arrives tomorrow. The mill set up weighs 115kg (253lb), but apparently, in the crate, comes to somewhat more than that. The crate is 1.7m. I suppose it would be OK on the sack truck, but the offload is from a rear motorized platform. I have invoked my heavy load trolly platform with the swivel wheels. The work-out will be the haul to get it from the road down there up to _Chez Graham_. The new toy!  No place at all to put it. Shop not built yet. I know already what will happen if I try and uncrate it in the living room! Whaaaah!


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## mikey (Dec 10, 2020)

I forgot to mention that if you ever decide to get a screwless vise, try to get one with clamping ledges on the sides. With the ledge-type, you just need simple clamps to hold the vise to the table. With the more common vise with holes on the side, you need clamps with pins to hold it to the table. LMS has some that are simple to make.

Ledge-type:




Hole-type:


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## Jim F (Dec 10, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Thanks @mikey , @Flyinfool , @DavidR8 , @macardoso and others.
> 
> Let us stress this a bit!
> _*FIRST MILL OWNER NEWBIES TAKE NOTE*_*!*
> ...


This is key !!!!!!!!
I have a not appropriate vise, and I cannot make good parts, unless the are small.


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## Jim F (Dec 10, 2020)

For an edge finder, look at a wiggler set, multi-tasker.








						How to Use a Wiggler
					

How to use a wiggler; a type of edge and center finder. Learn what all the attachments are for.




					littlemachineshop.com


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## graham-xrf (Dec 11, 2020)

Jim F said:


> This is key !!!!!!!!
> I have a not appropriate vise, and I cannot make good parts, unless the are small.


Thanks Jim. I can tell you are maybe a bit louder than me!

What can I say .. *IT'S HERE !!*
The truck driver did help, with his hydraulic trolley. He pulled. I pushed.
"Gawd - what you got in there? A couple of bodies?? "!
I managed to make a bit of room in the garage. Farmer neighbor helped me push it in.

Darn, you all know what I want to do now, but it has to stay put for a while. I only did this to beat the inevitable tarrif on 1 January. Until then, goods can travel either way with no duty. We all would like it all to stay that way, but our most not-so-illustrious have arranged things otherwise with all the skill that @Lo-Fi found an appropriate expression for. (Something related to organizing a successful event at a brewery).

As for what's in the crate, YUM YUMMY !! 
It will be given the *VISE* it deserves!


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## graham-xrf (Dec 11, 2020)

*And the winner was ...*
.. the *100mm (4")* version of THIS *⇩*




*The factors in consideration*
It was not nearly the most expensive, given the stratospheric costs of some. I paid *£132.42* in now devalued UK online plastics.
Of course, this was a bad day for the ££ pound ££, so now at 1.322/£, it wants *$175.00* in USA money.

It was the *screwless type*. The comment was they are slower to use, but more accurate. I went for accurate!
While screw-lock types are OK, I have no idea how one would set up work with one of those screw-lock types featuring half the screw RH, and the other half LH, called "self centering".

*The specification:*
This one is manufactured in Germany.
Industrial quality fully hardened to HRC58-62, and ground.

Parallelism 0.005mm/100mm. That translates as 10.3 arc-seconds, or about the same as a theodolite pentaprism.
In inches, it comes to 0.000197" over 3.937" or about 50 millionths per inch.

Squareness is claimed 0.005mm, which again is 0.000197", or about 2 tenths of thousandths.

Jaw width 100mm,   Jaw height 45mm (1.77"),     Maximum jaw opening 125mm  (4.92")

*Why this one?*
Mostly influenced by *@mikey* and *@macardoso* , I went for the 4 inch wide size to suit the size of the mill
Another thing I thought was a good point was the *45mm (1.77") jaw height.* Some were 30mm, and some even shallower. I hope I did not make a mistake there, but I thought that if there were parallels under the work, it still left a good amount of jaw height remaining. Arguably, a very shallow jaw height vise is "stiffer". I hoped for the "ledge" type, but the only one I found in the OK range was 6" wide and over 400mm long, so I went for the holes type with pin clamps.

*The one I decided against*
I was very much tempted by another, import from India, asking *£128.99 ($169.23)*
The 4" version of this one *⇩  *(Sorry - the only picture available was of the 2")

*

*

Similar price, but this one has the V-slots in the jaw centres to more easily clamp to round things, which was the attraction.
I decided that if I wanted to clamp something round, I would use V-Blocks, or something custom.
In most ways. they seemed very similar in sizes etc. I was just unsure about the V-slots in there where I would want the edges of parallels stood.
If I judged wrong there, then I passed up a better deal. I also saw a disclaimer about customs processing and additional charges for India, which would not apply to Germany.

For getting together the essentials for a first mill, there is more to come. I am always seeking the best value I can, while not compromising the machine's potential. So far, it can hardly be called a "budget" mill, but nor is it anything madly extravagant. If I seek to buy something that is a real bad idea, I am sure you folk will let me know.


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## mikey (Dec 11, 2020)

I think you made a good choice. These screwless vises are more rigid and ground more accurately than milling vises. I have used them for decades and find them to be a little slower to use but not much. An advantage is that you can place the vise so it does not interfere with Y-axis travel. Just make some hold down clamps your first project.

You will find that the taller jaws is also good. Most 6" parallel sets cannot use the taller ones because the jaws of most machine vises are not that tall. Yours will be very useful.

Next priority will be a good collet holding system. MT collets are pretty good but if I were you, I would look at an ER chuck. Glacern, ETM/Iscar, Rego-Fix and Techniks make good ones. Buy a good chuck; resist Asian imports. Buy good collets - Techniks is good. Buy good ER nuts - ETM, Rego-Fix, Techniks. Ball bearing nuts have greatly improved and may be a better option but if you opt for a solid nut, get one with a hard coating from the same quality makers.

These two things, a good vise and an accurate tool holding system, are the key foundational stuff you must have for a milling machine. You can compromise on other stuff but not these two.


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## Jim F (Dec 11, 2020)

mikey said:


> I think you made a good choice. These screwless vises are more rigid and ground more accurately than milling vises. I have used them for decades and find them to be a little slower to use but not much. An advantage is that you can place the vise so it does not interfere with Y-axis travel. Just make some hold down clamps your first project.
> 
> You will find that the taller jaws is also good. Most 6" parallel sets cannot use the taller ones because the jaws of most machine vises are not that tall. Yours will be very useful.
> 
> ...


My question is, how much Z real estate does the ER collet take up ?
With small mills like ours we need all the space we can get.


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## Lo-Fi (Dec 11, 2020)

Availability of brands accessible to US shoppers can be an issue here in the UK... 

My (UK) 2p on suppliers: 

Be very careful with eBay when shopping for decent (new) tooling stuff, with the exception of Gloster tools or Rennie. RDG pop up lots, and their range is great, but they've always seemed very variable from my experience. I've have some ok stuff and some utter garbage from RDG. Nothing really good IMHO, especially for the prices. 

I've never been disappointed with stuff I've bought from Rennie, Gloster, Arc or APT so far. Zoro also sell decent kit.

I reckon you've made a good choice of vice for that mill.


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## mikey (Dec 11, 2020)

Jim F said:


> My question is, how much Z real estate does the ER collet take up ?
> With small mills like ours we need all the space we can get.



That's a very good point, Jim. An ER chuck definitely takes up more room in Z than a MT or an R8 collet does so I suppose you have to weigh that factor. I have an RF-31 with 16-7/8" max space from the spindle nose to the table; my Kurt vise takes up 3-1/4" of that, leaving me with a max of about a foot or so, give or take. I have an ETM ER40 chuck with an integral R8 shank that sticks out maybe about 2-3" from the spindle nose; this is the largest ER chuck I own. My other ER chucks project less.

Over the last 5-6 years that I've used this mill, I have not had a single instance where an ER chuck was the reason for not being able to do the work I do. I always try to use the shortest end mill that will do the job but even so, clearance has never been an issue for me. 

I also use a Beall ER32 chuck on my Sherline mill. That mill has an extended column and the column is on a riser so I have about 14" of clearance from the nose of the spindle to the table. My Beall chuck is about 3" long and my Wilton machine vise takes up an additional 3" in height. Even here, I have had zero issues running out of room when using an end mill. 

It may be that I have not had to do really tall/big projects but, for me, an ER chuck has not been a hindrance, ever. I much prefer the accuracy an ER chuck brings vs native taper collets like an R8, and there is no question that an ER chuck dampens vibration better than a native taper collet. Bottom line is that improved accuracy (and tool life), reduced vibration and the lack of any real world vertical clearance issues tends to make me favor an ER chuck. 

Your situation may definitely vary, though.


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## Jim F (Dec 11, 2020)

This is what I have to work with.
Sorry about the focus.


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## mikey (Dec 11, 2020)

Jim F said:


> This is what I have to work with.
> Sorry about the focus.



If I had that mill, I would use a Tormach TTS ER32 collet chuck in it. The chuck only projects a few inches from the spindle and is more than accurate enough for hobby use. With good collets, it will hold close to your spindle's run out.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 13, 2020)

OK - I now will be getting into all there is about collets, collet holders, Z-axis space.

There is another thing starting to look more obvious. It's about a *Digital Read-Out*.

Dealing with natural backlash on a lathe is instinctive. I think you actually need a little (backlash) there to really know where you are. When you back up, and then move forward to take it up, the next amount can be read off the graduated dial just fine. This is not so easy with a mill, where the table moves into a machining operation in both directions, and both directions crossways.

Of course, one can keep juggling the dial readings after backlash, but the process starts to become cumbersome, and it feels to me to be error-prone.

So who thinks a DRO, as used for a mill, is not really optional?


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## Lo-Fi (Dec 13, 2020)

I'll be getting a DRO at some point, but have done plenty of accurate work with hand dials. Can be annoying, but a century of machinists have got by just fine with dials and indicators.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 16, 2020)

*Collets Chuck & Drawbar Question*
I press on with the acquisition of "essentials". I now have a set of hard "adjustable stairs" and various clampdowns with T-nuts and studs. I also have a pair of 123-blocks. I know quite  a lot of first milling will be in the vise, but based on the pictures I see in HM posts, it seems that these really are essential to the kit. I have yet to get to parallels.

We come to collets, and collet chucks. I am still exploring everything about them. Before even I get into what are "quality" sets, I run up onto a basic question about sets and drawbars. The mill I have purchased , still in it's crate, has a M10 drawbar, and is supplied with a MT3 arbor to mount the drill chuck. To provide the mill with a MT3 collet chuck, and some ER32 collets, one has to look for ..

1. The chuck must be MT3 to mount in the mill.
2. The front of the chuck must accept ER32 collets.
_3. The rear of the chuck must have a M10 thread, so the supplied drawbar in the mill can pull on it._

It is the last of these that leads me to the question. As I look through the various offerings, the more usual ER32 sets have a M12 drawbar. There are some with 7/16" back thread, which is about 11.11mm.

Q1. So long as there is enough clearance down the quill tube, can one simply use a thicker drawbar?
    Are there dangers?
    Does one usually end up making up a drawbar, or bars, having the correct threads on the ends, to suit the sets one can buy?

Q2.  Is it commonly done to use the same collets in mill and lathe, with only the drawbar length being different?

Q3 Related to Q2, I think this only works if one is willing to give up the ability to have longer work fit right through the collet chuck when on a lathe.
     Is it commonly done to have two collet chucks, one for lathe, the other for mill, and one set of collets?
     I see a totally different style of MT3 collet chuck, intended for lathe, that uses a tube-style drawbar, which does allow turned work to fit up the middle.

This is stuff I just don't know, and getting it wrong risks being expensive!


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## mikey (Dec 16, 2020)

1. It is common to make a new drawbar at need. The easiest way is to use a round bar to fit the hole in the spindle (thicker than stock is fine) and cut the threads you need to fit the chuck; then cut it to length. At the top, duplicate the washer or flange or whatever the stock drawbar has, then use hex stock to make the nut on top. Pin/silver solder the hex to the drawbar and you're done.
2/3. It is not wise to use the collets you use to hold end mills on the mill to hold work on the lathe. Collets hold best when they are sized very close to the tool they must hold. While an ER collet can collapse to hold smaller diameters, doing so eventually affects their accuracy. So, use a 10mm collet to hold a 10mm shank. Try not to use an 11mm collet to hold a 10mm tool, even if the larger collet will collapse down to hold it. 

I highly recommend you buy high quality collets for tool holding on the mill, and buy a cheap import set for use in the collet chuck on the lathe for work holding. Work holding on the lathe does not require tenths accuracy and it is fine to collapse a collet to grab work that is a bit off size. While you will eventually wear collets by doing this, their low cost is more acceptable.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 16, 2020)

mikey said:


> I highly recommend you buy high quality collets for tool holding on the mill, and buy a cheap import set for use in the collet chuck on the lathe for work holding. Work holding on the lathe does not require tenths accuracy and it is fine to collapse a collet to grab work that is a bit off size. While you will eventually wear collets by doing this, their low cost is more acceptable.


Thank you for that. It suddenly opens up many more sets that can be used.
I am looking to ER32, especially for lathe, because they easily clamp with a compression nut from the front, so much easier to clamp and let go. Also, by recommendation from @DavidR8 , who has already purchased and tried out an MT3 set.

I will take out the mill drawbar, get a look down the hole, and figure out exactly what this machine needs.

As for the South Bend 9(s), it seems easy enough to get up a drawbar for the type of collet chuck that uses a solid rod. I have yet to find the type of collet chuck that uses a tube.


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## mikey (Dec 16, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> As for the South Bend 9(s), it seems easy enough to get up a drawbar for the type of collet chuck that uses a solid rod. I have yet to find the type of collet chuck that uses a tube.



Given the value of the ability to pass stuff through the collet and on through the spindle, mounting an ER chuck to a back plate seems like a better idea than a tube connecting to a MT shank.


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## Jim F (Dec 16, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Thank you for that. It suddenly opens up many more sets that can be used.
> I am looking to ER32, especially for lathe, because they easily clamp with a compression nut from the front, so much easier to clamp and let go. Also, by recommendation from @DavidR8 , who has already purchased and tried out an MT3 set.
> 
> I will take out the mill drawbar, get a look down the hole, and figure out exactly what this machine needs.
> ...


I use 3C collets in my SB9.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 17, 2020)

Jim F said:


> I use 3C collets in my SB9.


For those who don't know, what is the difference between 3C and 5C collets?
I think 5C collets chuck is like a tube with a thread on the end, and one can have tuned work stick right through.
I would look them up, but it will have to be tomorrow. My timezone is zulu.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
I decided to purchase a Chinese DRO with 1um linear sensors. The cost seemed only minimally more than the prevalent 5 micron types. It was even less than some 5 micron resolution types advertised. I will post the details of (low cost add-ons) later.

I choose ER32 for collets, but not purchased yet until I have researched the drawbars, collet chucks, etc.

Looking back at the original recommendations, there still remains parallels, some cheaper type HSS end mills, a face mill, tap follower, and a edge finder. @Mitch Alsup  warned against "junk" fly cutters, and @Lo-Fi  mentioned they are a desirable thing to have. I was thinking that fly cutters fling chips everywhere. We are left with unknowns.

Q1. What are the types, styles, features that make for a junk fly cutter. Naturally, what does a "good" fly cutter look like.

Q2. If one invests in a face mill tool, does that make a fly cutter redundant? What I am going after here is to discover if there is a motivation left to use fly cutters. Better finish? more versatile? More economic? Sharpenable?


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## Jim F (Dec 17, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> For those who don't know, what is the difference between 3C and 5C collets?
> I think 5C collets chuck is like a tube with a thread on the end, and one can have tuned work stick right through.
> I would look them up, but it will have to be tomorrow. My timezone is zulu.
> 
> ...











						Collet Set, 3C, Set of 7 1991
					

3C Collets & Collet Closers 1991 Set of seven 3C round collets range in size from 1/8" to 1/2" by 16ths; Includes 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 7/16...




					littlemachineshop.com
				



3C collets are smaller than 5C, they only go to 1/2"

there are good videos on making flycutters. thet can cut bigger sizes than a face cutter and leave a nicer surface finish..
Both have their uses.


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## Lo-Fi (Dec 17, 2020)

You'll make a far bigger mess with a face mill then a fly cutter. Inserts need to be driven hard and fast or you just trash them (there's almost a weekly thread with someone asking why their inserts on their face mill don't last. They're always running them too slowly for one reason or another). HSS Flycutters are slower, having only a single point, and don't need to be driven so fast.. I have a six insert face mill I run when hogging that fires a stream of blue steel bullets off like a Gatling gun. I only ever run it with the table going right so they're ejected toward the column, not me. They hurt!!!
A flycutter is a flycutter... They're simple things: just a holder for a piece of HSS at a particular angle. A nice afternoon project if you want to roll your own. There's really not much to it. The piece of HSS is more important than the holder IMHO! The cutting tool itself isn't vastly different from a lathe tool grind, though there are some cunning oblique designs. You can put insert lathe tool holders in them too, of course.
Face mills are great, but not essential unless you're in a hurry. Almost forgot to mention that face mills can demand quite a bit of power and rigidity from a machine.


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## mikey (Dec 17, 2020)

I don't own any junk fly cutters but I know what they look like. Check ebay; they often come in sets of three sizes and are meant to use brazed carbide or HSS tooling. If you know how to grind HSS well then they will work but the more modern and useful designs all use carbide inserts. 

A fly cutter is intended to produce a flat surface with a decent finish. Some can even do limited stock reduction and some can even cut to a shoulder to produce ledges. Most fly cutters have only one cutting element so power requirements are usually lower; this is beneficial on smaller benchtop mills that lack power and rigidity. Because that cutter is hanging way out there and cuts a single chip, that chip WILL go flying quite a distance unless contained. For most hobby guys with smaller mills, a fly cutter is the way to go.

A face mill will have anywhere from 1-6 inserts so they are more costly to own. These inserts also have to be precisely set at the same level and then you need to power and rigidity to drive them. While smaller face mills, like the 1.5-2" models, can function well on a small mill, a fly cutter will usually do the same thing for a lot less money.

I use a Tormach Superfly and it is pretty good. Inserts last quite some time and the tool cuts well with a 3/4-1HP mill. It does not cut to a shoulder and this is a disadvantage. 

I also use a Sherline flycutter that is essentially a single insert face mill with a 1-1/8" diameter. It can run at high speeds to produce beautiful finishes. It can also do stock reduction and it will cut to a shoulder. I use this tool much more than the Superfly. 

I used HSS fly cutters for years and I also know how to grind the tool. My advice is to go with a fly cutter that uses inserts. They work just as well and when the insert wears, just index it.


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## Larry$ (Dec 17, 2020)

To start, I would skip the face mill. I've got cheap Chinese fly cutters that work fine. For sure I'd use a collet system on the lathe that allows pass through. I have a Shars Toolmakers vice. OK but I made new internals for it. Mostly it gets used clamped in the Kurt to hold work at some odd angle. Or mounted to the rotary table. My CNC router uses ER32 tool holders and work great. When it comes time to get collet blocks for the mill you can get ER or 5C. Try to standardize on one collet system. I use 5C on the lathe, spin indexer, collet blocs and tool grinder.  BTW, I don't see anything wrong with unboxing in the living room.


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## Jim F (Dec 17, 2020)

Anothe advantage to having collets for the lathe, you can reverse thread!!!!
This applies to 3C and MT3 collets, only.


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