# Powering a 1HP BLDC Lathe in a Van



## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

I have looked at this before, but I ended up looking at a ridiculously large bank of 12V batteries or solar panels. Now I am planning to idle the vehicle while I work on the lathe.

What I am trying to do is (brace yourself!) put my 10X30 lathe in a van. The motor is a 1HP BLDC, and the lathe has a DRO. The lathe is currently plugged in to a 15A, 110V circuit in my shop, but I really do need to take it on the road. The lathe will spend the rest of it’s life in a van.

The lathe draws up to 7A while in use, but I wonder what the maximum startup current may be (if that is even an issue). If I needed to draw even 30A to get it going, then p=iv is 30A X 110V = 3300W.  If I bought an inverter larger than 3300W, wouldn’t that power the lathe if I kept the vehicle idling?


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

I have 10 months to get this project up and running. 

I would like to avoid a gas generator, solar panels and lithium ion batteries.

I am willing to build a battery bank of quality automotive or marine batteries.  At some point, a large battery bank would encroach on the workspace.

Powering the lathe using an inverter & the car battery would be great space-wise, but I have a feeling that I will need a battery bank that is charged off of the car battery.

Can this be done? I sort of need to make it work. I go out of town 2 months every year, and staying in a motel room with no tools or shop isn’t working.


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## Superburban (Mar 20, 2020)

3300W/12V = 275 amps. Assuming a perfect inverter conversion. The alternator in your van, is likely between 80, and 140 amps. The battery would hold for the startup. Running, would be down about 80 amps at 12 volts. Even though newer alternators are rated higher now days, many still do not last long putting out near their top rating. So do your homework on what your van has.

Also look at inverters, IIRC, there is something about many not working with inductive loads. I think you have to look at pure sine wave inverters.


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

The first specific question would be how many Amperes the alternator will provide.


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

Superburban said:


> 3300W/12V = 275 amps. Assuming a perfect inverter conversion. The alternator in your van, is likely between 80, and 140 amps. The battery would hold for the startup. Running, would be down about 80 amps at 12 volts. Even though newer alternators are rated higher now days, many still do not last long putting out near their top rating. So do your homework on what your van has.
> 
> Also look at inverters, IIRC, there is something about many not working with inductive loads. I think you have to look at pure sine wave inverters.



I don’t have the van or the inverter yet (but I have all the tools!). The van, batteries and inverter will be chosen specifically for the task of powering the lathe and DRO.

I have no problem buying a robust, sine wave inverter & installing a similarly robust alternator. I certainly don’t want anything to fail when I am thousands of miles from home.

In case you haven’t guessed, most of the energy is going to come from the gasoline. Leaving the vehicle idling while I am working on the lathe is a critical part of the plan. Let’s overlook the ridiculous aspects of this plan for now; I would not be the first person to leave my engine running for awhile. 

There are a lot of other considerations with this idea of a mobile lathe, but I am just focusing on powering the lathe & DRO for now.


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## ErichKeane (Mar 20, 2020)

An inverter would work fine.  Most inverters are 'peak' capable, for example, the harbor freight 2000W inverter can handle 4000W peak.  Your lathe at 7A @120V is 70A@12V, so most van alternators will be able to do it.  Depending on the motor, you can (and SHOULD!) get an upgraded alternator.  For ~$500 any of the Ford Diesels can have a 200+W alternator.

The plan doesn't seem that much out there to be honest. I could see a traveling repair shop wanting to do exactly this.  That said, powering by gasoline is going to be WAY worse than powering by diesel I think.  At idle, a diesel is going to do a much better job.  Since you don't have the van, you could look at the E250 diesel, which would run reliably for ever and has a TON of aftermarket support  (including upgraded alternators) since it shares with the 1/2 and 3/4 ton Ford pickups.


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> An inverter would work fine.  Most inverters are 'peak' capable, for example, the harbor freight 2000W inverter can handle 4000W peak.  Your lathe at 7A @120V is 70A@12V, so most van alternators will be able to do it.  Depending on the motor, you can (and SHOULD!) get an upgraded alternator.  For ~$500 any of the Ford Diesels can have a 200+W alternator.
> 
> The plan doesn't seem that much out there to be honest. I could see a traveling repair shop wanting to do exactly this.  That said, powering by gasoline is going to be WAY worse than powering by diesel I think.  At idle, a diesel is going to do a much better job.  Since you don't have the van, you could look at the E250 diesel, which would run reliably for ever and has a TON of aftermarket support  (including upgraded alternators) since it shares with the 1/2 and 3/4 ton Ford pickups.



I am open to using diesel. This is why I am putting this idea out there, before I select a vehicle. 

The only requirements of the vehicle is that (1) it is not too ugly, (2) it is not too long, (3) I need to be able to stand up in the work area, (4) it has just enough room for a 10X30 lathe, lathe tooling & one operator.

I like the RAM Promaster because it has a low deck height. We’ll see if those can be had in diesel. This may call for a 3/4 or 1 ton.


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

The reason I want to avoid solar panels or a gas generator is because I don’t want the vehicle to stick out as something odd. I want it to blend in.

It would be pretty easy to buy a flatbed and put a Miller Bobcat and a custom structure on there, but that is not stealth. I want to end up with a white van that looks like so many others out there.


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## Superburban (Mar 20, 2020)

Yea, looks like a stealth van to me.


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## JimDawson (Mar 20, 2020)

If you insist on running the van engine to power the lathe then I would install a second high output alternator and dedicate it to the tool power.  Many emergency vehicles have dual alternator setups.  If buying a new full size van, a dual alternator system may be a standard(ish) option.  Aftermarket high output alternators are very available, and most likely full installation kits for dual setups for about any vehicle.

Having said that, a 2000W or 3000W Honda generator is very quiet and would easily run your lathe.  Pure sine wave output also, and they have pretty good surge capacity.  But if you go that route make sure you buy genuine Honda from a Honda dealer.

7 amps at 120V is 840W, so realistically a 2000W inverter would be fine, the start load is not going to be 3x on a BLDC motor.  And good inverters have some surge capacity, but as said above, get one with a pure sine wave output.  There is a lot of cheap junk out there.

Above all plan for expansion.  First is the lathe and the next thing you know you will need a mill, then a band saw, and ........ and........ and........   I think you're going to need a bigger van.


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

I see that you don’t want to buy a diesel if you live in California. I will probably end up with a Ram Promaster, and it comes with a 220A alternator.

So 220A X 12V = 2640W assuming 100% effiency. At 110V, we get 24A. That looks like it might not be enough.


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## Manual Mac (Mar 20, 2020)

Von Dutch used to live in a bus with a Sheldon lathe & misc other machine tools in it.
Not sure how he powered them.


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

JimDawson said:


> If you insist on running the van engine to power the lathe then I would install a second high output alternator and dedicate it to the tool power.  Many emergency vehicles have dual alternator setups.  If buying a new full size van, a dual alternator system may be a standard(ish) option.  Aftermarket high output alternators are very available, and most likely full installation kits for dual setups for about any vehicle.
> 
> Having said that, a 2000W or 3000W Honda generator is very quiet and would easily run your lathe.  Pure sine wave output also, and they have pretty good surge capacity.  But if you go that route make sure you buy genuine Honda from a Honda dealer.
> 
> ...



The lathe is definitely enough for me. My welders & milling machine only get used when I force myself to get off of the lathe.

I don’t know how somebody would put a gas generator in a van. It seems like it would cause an air quality problem with the exhaust. I am stipulating that everything has to be inside the van. I feel like a generator mounted on the back could attract unwanted attention.


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

Another issue that I did not mention is that I am getting a larger lathe and the 10X30 in my garage has to go to make room for it. So if I can get this going, I will be killing two birds with one stone.


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## JimDawson (Mar 20, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> The lathe is definitely enough for me. My welders & milling machine only get used when I force myself to get off of the lathe.
> 
> I don’t know how somebody would put a gas generator in a van. It seems like it would cause an air quality problem with the exhaust. I am stipulating that everything has to be inside the van. I feel like a generator mounted on the back could attract unwanted attention.



Good point, but you don't see (or hear) the generators in truck campers and motorhomes.  They are in a box and vented to the outside.


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## erikmannie (Mar 20, 2020)

I like the idea of putting a generator in a box and venting the exhaust outside if I can keep ALL of the carbon monoxide away from me.

It would be a benefit if I could have the electrical system for the lathe completely independent and separate from that of the vehicle.


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## Dhal22 (Mar 20, 2020)

You cannot put a generator IN the van.  The air quality issue would be carbon monoxide,  then death.   I suppose you could pipe the exhaust outside the van like a boat.


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## Aaron_W (Mar 21, 2020)

I'd look at some simple camper van conversions, a simple camper parked with a generator running is a lot less likely to draw unwanted attention that a plain white windowless van (what my son and his friends call a "free candy van" ) idling for extended periods. 

A van idling for hours with odd noises coming out of it seems like a like a good way to get a knock on the window from every passing police officer.     
A generator will be far cheaper to run as well, they make some pretty low key campers.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)




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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I looked on YouTube, and it looks like most people put their generators about 15 feet outside the van and run a cord into the van. The generators sounded noisy on the YouTube videos.

I saw one where they mounted the generator inside the van and routed the exhaust down into the floor, but I wouldn’t trust that to be 100.000% leak proof.


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## FOMOGO (Mar 21, 2020)

Why is the stealth part so vital? On site work work for the CIA? If I was running a lathe in a van, I would want all the doors open for air and light. Mike


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I'd look at some simple camper van conversions, a simple camper parked with a generator running is a lot less likely to draw unwanted attention that a plain white windowless van (what my son and his friends call a "free candy van" ) idling for extended periods.
> 
> A van idling for hours with odd noises coming out of it seems like a like a good way to get a knock on the window from every passing police officer.
> A generator will be far cheaper to run as well, they make some pretty low key campers.



I wonder what a police officer would think about some guy parked on the side of the road or in a, say Walmart, parking lot idling his motor and inside working on a lathe.

California plates, they look for drugs, there aren’t any, so I wonder if there’s any problem there?


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

FOMOGO said:


> Why is the stealth part so vital? On site work work for the CIA? If I was running a lathe in a van, I would want all the doors open for air and light. Mike



I wouldn’t be hiding anything. I don’t know if it is legal to leave your engine running and work on machinery in a public parking space. The only problem that I can think of is leaving the engine running.

Staying in an Airbnb or motel room with only books & a laptop for weeks or months at a time when you’re used to having tools & a shop had me wishing that I could just bring one tool with me.

Air quality is another issue that I am considering. With the engine idling, I would want to avoid the vehicle exhaust getting into the work area. Solving this is probably as simple as turning off the vehicle & opening the side door every once in a while.

Providing a lot of light in the work area is easily solved. Where I go, I have access to 110V outlets 24/7, so I will be able to charge lights and cordless tools.


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## ErichKeane (Mar 21, 2020)

See, I would actually choose to avoid the generator.  It is a second (possibly noisier) engine to maintain, plus it takes up valuable space. 

If you're going with a dual alternator, I'd consider finding one that could be wired up for 120v directly.  A quick googling shows that they are reasonably easy to convert.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> See, I would actually choose to avoid the generator.  It is a second (possibly noisier) engine to maintain, plus it takes up valuable space.
> 
> If you're going with a dual alternator, I'd consider finding one that could be wired up for 120v directly.  A quick googling shows that they are reasonably easy to convert.



I have never heard of that. I will Google it now.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

If you have the budget just get an RV and build a shop inside. Or a toyhauler so you already have work space.

I have a friend who keeps wanting to design a "stealth" RV but the thing I always come back to is how miserable it would be not having windows and such. You're not likely to fool anybody by using a plain white van, probably more likely to get hassled. I've had several campers and with the limited space inside being able to open a window is a necessity IMHO.

As far as I know there isn't any law against using machine tools in public, if you plan on sleeping in it however some municipalities have a problem with that depending on where you are. If it were me I would plan on having something that would be acceptable in an RV campground, maybe even a shop built into a utility trailer that I could pull behind my living quarters. Have you considered how it will be to have all your clothes, food, etc. saturated with the smell of cutting oil?

This is my "shop trailer", sorry just the outside but I have a drill press, generator, compressor, workbench and a bunch of tools inside.




If you built something similar and made things to sell at craft fairs you could call it a business and write it off on your taxes (consult with an accountant of course).

RV parks are pretty pleasant places and I'm sure many wouldn't mind you puttering on your lathe during daylight hours. You would also have a 30 or 50 amp AC service so wouldn't need to run any sort of generator.

Of course I don't know what your two months out of town consist of but your needs might be met in different ways then you're thinking of now....

John


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## ErichKeane (Mar 21, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I have never heard of that. I will Google it now.


It MAY need to be a special made thing, but there are a handful of youtube videos with people converting them.  I mean, it MUST be possible, since that is how a generator works, right?


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## John O (Mar 21, 2020)

Outside of the box, PTO as the tow trucks have and hydraulic motor on the lathe.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

Check out this thread....









						Mobile Lathe, and GI machine shop?
					

A lathe on wheels, hummmm Looks like a deuce, and a half in the bottom picture.




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I get two months vacation per year, and I go to vocational schools out of state. My wife only gets 1-2 weeks vacation per year. 

So about 38-40 hours/week in school is great, but I am used to staying busy much longer than that. I don’t have anything to do on the evenings & weekends when I’m away.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

Or maybe this is you?


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I get two months vacation per year, and I go to vocational schools out of state. My wife only gets 1-2 weeks vacation per year.
> 
> So about 38-40 hours/week in school is great, but I am used to staying busy much longer than that. I don’t have anything to do on the evenings & weekends when I’m away.



Does your wife want to come stay with you on weekends?


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I wonder how it work if I had a battery bank: a certain number of Ah (corresponding to 4-5 hours of working on the lathe), charged and ready to go. A 4kW inverter wired to the battery bank powers the lathe until the batteries need charging. 

I could charge the batteries in the motel room while I sleep. Bonus strength training for carrying a few batteries in and out of the motel room every morning & night.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

My wife visiting me on the weekends is prohibitively expensive, and she would spend most of the weekend in transit. She works long hours, and actually needs the whole weekend to recharge.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Or maybe this is you?
> 
> View attachment 317580



I weigh about 3 times as much as that guy.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

The main argument for not having windows in the van is to prevent a thief from smashing a window and stealing tools.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

Getting back to the battery bank, if I wanted 746W for 5 hours, that is 3730Wh or 310.8Ah at 12V.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

If you're going with batteries just convert the lathe to a DC motor. But, if you're staying at a motel it might be worthwhile talking with management about having a parking space that you could run an extension cord to. I still think the trailer might be better suited than buying a new van. They can be locked up pretty tight and immobilized with a "boot" type device.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> If you're going with batteries just convert the lathe to a DC motor. But, if you're staying at a motel it might be worthwhile talking with management about having a parking space that you could run an extension cord to. I still think the trailer might be better suited than buying a new van. They can be locked up pretty tight and immobilized with a "boot" type device.



Good point about the extension cord. This idea would really shine in an RV campground.

I currently don’t own a vehicle, so I wouldn’t have anything to tow a trailer.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

It looks like a good starting point for a battery bank would be four marine batteries in parallel.

I think four 12V batteries is about as much work space as I would willing to be able to give up.

I wonder if battery outgassing is an issue.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I am not sure how many batteries I need, but this is an example of a good candidate.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

So, how much room do you need to live in and how much for the shop? If you can justify a small RV at ~$30k for something decent and a tandem axle cargo trailer you might have a winning combo for staying in a campground. 









						2009 Winnebago Chalet 26 FT With A Slide Out And Rear Bed - rvs - by...
					

we are selling our one owner winnebago chalet and this is built on a E450 Ford chassis with a...



					sfbay.craigslist.org
				




https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/trb/d/gilroy-7x14-tandem-axle-enclosed-cargo/7096547346.html


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

You have to think that a police officer could find no fault with somebody working on a lathe in a van with the engine not even running.

The battery bank would allow me to open doors and/or windows without exposure to vehicle exhaust, and allow any battery offgassing to clear out.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

When you start building battery banks leave room in the budget for a good charge controller. Also, they do need to be vented outside while charging.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> So, how much room do you need to live in and how much for the shop? If you can justify a small RV at ~$30k for something decent and a tandem axle cargo trailer you might have a winning combo for staying in a campground.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





matthewsx said:


> When you start building battery banks leave room in the budget for a good charge controller. Also, they do need to be vented outside while charging.



Finding a place to sleep is not a problem.

Wow, I did not know that batteries needed to be charged in a well ventilated area. So not charging inside a motel room, I guess.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

Also remember, your lathe wants to be leveled. Driving around with it and parking in random places isn't likely to allow for that. If you can block up a trailer and leave it in place for the two months you'll be there it should be a lot better for precision work.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> Finding a place to sleep is not a problem.
> 
> Wow, I did not know that batteries needed to be charged in a well ventilated area. So not charging inside a motel room, I guess.



Charging lead acid batteries creates hydrogen gas (boom)


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## Superburban (Mar 21, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> If you're going with a dual alternator, I'd consider finding one that could be wired up for 120v directly.  A quick googling shows that they are reasonably easy to convert.


You will end up with something like 500 or more cycles per second (HZ). Most generators run at 1800, or 23600 RPM, to keep the cycles at the 60 HZ that most of our tools need. Many things do not care about the HZ, most motors, and electronics do care. Although, I think I read a VFD, that can have 400 to 500HZ on the input line.

I would take a look at the class C (Conversion van) RV's. There are some that could be modified for your needs, and still look like a simple van.

Another idea, is a handicap van.


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## Aaron_W (Mar 21, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I wonder what a police officer would think about some guy parked on the side of the road or in a, say Walmart, parking lot idling his motor and inside working on a lathe.
> 
> California plates, they look for drugs, there aren’t any, so I wonder if there’s any problem there?




I was thinking more parked in front of a business or residential area. Walmart parking lot is a lot less likely to be an issue.

If you saw a van parked outside your house with the engine running I'm sure your first thought would be, hmm wonder if he has a lathe in there   but a lot of people might wonder if it is somebody up to no good, casing the neighborhood, getaway van for a home invasion etc. People get paranoid, and call the police for some rinkydink stuff, like a neighbor running a lathe in his garage. Of course you aren't breaking the law and you might even get a police officer who was into it and get a good conversation out of the encounter, find out the best local coffee place.

An old box style ambulance would be a good candidate for conversion. They are usually fairly cheap, most are diesel, have a beefy electrical system, and good interior space. Many also have external compartments which could be good for material storage, or for mounting a generator if you choose to go that way. Not as incognito as a plain white van, but they look like a working vehicle so less likely to attract negative attention if seen parked with activity inside. Depending on the prior owner many are well maintained, although they can have been run hard, quick starts from cold to 60mph and often extended idling.

One downside, having worked on ambulances if you get one gut the patient compartment and use more bleach than you have ever used before to clean it out.

Something like this






Not to distract but let me offer you another option to make chips after class.

Sherline lathe 30lbs, and you could fit one with tooling into a suitcase. Maybe take up small engine building or clock making. You can take it as checked luggage on a plane and use it in the motel.

Sherline


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## AlanB (Mar 21, 2020)

The power consumed by a lathe varies a lot. So using 1hp continuous as an estimate is probably very high.

Lead acid batteries can only be drawn down about 50% if they are to last. So the capacity is only half what they claim.

Best to work in watt-hours. 12V 100 amp hour battery is 1200 watt hours. Use 50% would be 600 watt hours. Or about 600/749 = 0.8 hp for an hour. So each battery would run the lathe for nearly an hour at a fairly heavy load. Factoring in the inverter efficiency at 85% will reduce things a bit further to 0.68 hp for an hour per battery.

Lead Acid Batteries must be vented. The compartment must be vented outside, or the battery boxes with vent pipes can be used.

Lead acid batteries exhale a mist of acid, handling them is not a good idea. Everything within a few inches corrodes from this. Connections for this level of current are heavy and another reason not to mess with the batteries frequently.

Charging them will take awhile. The most charger you can use with a regular AC outlet is about 1200 watts, so it would take about a half hour to bulk charge each battery, and a lot longer to finish the charge which occurs at slower rates. This is a fairly expensive charger (approximately 100 amps). Batteries don't like to be charged that fast, so it will reduce their service life. Charging four at once will help here, reducing charging current to 25 amps per battery.

The noise coming from the lathe might not be neighbor friendly.  The truck might need to be soundproofed. Also good ventilation is required with oil smoke, solvent and other unhealthy things needing to be conducted outside.

Class C motorhomes commonly have built in generators that have outside compartments. Perhaps get a used class C and gut it and convert it to a mobile shop.

Running the vehicle engine to provide power is very inefficient It will consume a lot of fuel and generate a lot of pollution. An onboard generator is a better approach.

A Class C towing a box trailer with the shop in the trailer would be my choice.

You may also need heating and cooling, the RV will be set up there too.


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## NortonDommi (Mar 21, 2020)

You can buy a generator that is 12/24/110 V or 12/24/240 V single phase that replaces your alternator and I have been told there are alternators available.  We used to run the generators on our work trucks and had outlets strategically placed around the vehicle. It meant running the engine but having 240 V available made a huge difference in the field. Voltage was set at what your battery system was for DC and you drew off the batteries and the AC was switch on/off. Easy enough to rig it for land power with a caravan connector when close to a building.


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## NortonDommi (Mar 21, 2020)

Found something like what we had in our trucks except ours were 240V.


			http://www.fabcopower.com/generat/bgen.htm
		

Other alternatives would be an alternator driven off the PTO or some of the other suggestions.
Have you looked at the Briggs & Stratton Vangard battery packs?  Vanguard® Commercial Power | Vanguard® Commercial Engines & Battery Power


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## Bi11Hudson (Mar 21, 2020)

Having spent many overnight hours in a fiber splicing rig, I've just got to jump into this one. The first point is that running an automotive engine at light load but high RPM is going to be expensive. Not just in fuel but in maintenance as well. Depending on the vehicle, sit idling at 2400 to 3600 RPM. If you luck into a diesel, drop that down to 1800-2400 RPM. Alternators do not have much output at idle, they need to run at highway speed to get anything useful. Take note of how much the engine "rattles" at fast idle. Even a new engine will sound loose.

The bucket truck had a PTO, but the engine had to run at a fast idle to get 540 RPM at the PTO. We used a small generator instead, mounted behind the cab.  Actually, it was a home brew rig, had to run a hydraulic pump too. (I'national S-1600 V-8 diesel) The generator and pump didn't run all the time, just when the bucket had to move. The engine had to be replaced every year or so. Much less expensive than replacing a truck engine.

The splicing trailer had its' own generator, mounted on the tongue of the trailer. Along with a small air compressor. Inside the trailer was a "clean room", with over pressure air conditioning. Fiber optics have little tolerance for airborn dust.

This is not meant to be a "downer" on what you have planned. But having run for several years at a commercial level, I can say that using the propulsion engine for such auxilliary use is a bad move. It would be far better to use a small camper dedicated (Onan?) generator rigged into an external enclosure. The exhaust pipe on a van would need to be rerouted toward the front. Not so easy to do. A camper generator will have the necessary piping, you would only have to supply an airtight box.

I can vouch for the comments regarding the indigenous constabulary being nosy. But, _that's what they are paid to do_. Have *some sort* of window! Even that won't stop interruptions, but it will cut down the curiosity to more reasonable levels.

I agree with the above comment about using the van as a camper and a trailer as the shop. Not only would you have a place to sleep without picking up chips, it would smell better too. And you never know, you may drop the trailer in a secure location and still have the van to get around without all that weight.

An E-300 van VS a 16 ft trailer~~~ The trailer would be easier to stand up in. Unless you're well over six feet, which I am.

.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I am starting to understand why you don’t see many mobile machine shops!

I can see that this idea can be made to work in a trailer, but I don’t have room to store a trailer at home. The largest vehicle that I have room for at home is a full sized van or truck of standard length. If it is as long as a king cab with an 8 foot bed, the parking at home would present a challenge.

Maybe I could scale down to a quality lathe of minimum size. Setting aside the idea of a van and looking at a truck, I could have a generator completely separated (with regard to air exchange) from the work compartment.

If a truck with a standard cab and an 8 foot bed were used, you would have enough room for the generator and a work compartment. This is where the 10X30 lathe leaves the conversation due to its size, so now we are talking about a little Sherline lathe.

If we assume that a quality generator providing ample power is chosen, we have only to soundproof the generator (out of consideration for the public) and try to make a work compartment that is not an eyesore.

The rigs that farriers use are right on the cusp of being an eyesore. Entering the vehicle from the rear, a man door to the work compartment is on one side and flush with the rear of the vehicle (no tailgate). A generator compartment is also flush with the rear of the truck; this would allow easy access to the generator (for installation, service and replacement).

As far as the work compartment goes, the color & exterior lines could match the contour of the truck. I could have plenty of large windows (for air quality) with just enough security bars to prevent a thief from climbing in.

The only problem that I see with this idea is the need for some sort of air dam on top of the cab. This sounds like an opportunity to grab some storage space!


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## gradient (Mar 21, 2020)

I second the Honda external generator idea.  We used them many times for field work in residential neighborhoods with no problem with it placed outside the truck.  We were using the 2000W version and with just a solid plastic laundry basket over it (holes for inlet and exhaust) the noise level was about ambient at 10 feet distance.  We never had a complaint from fussy residents.  They are pricey but well worth it and a lot cheaper than a special van rig.  Easy to maintain and very reliable.  As mentioned, get genuine Honda.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

Two additional points:

(1) There is a defined stigma on RVs and campers in my city due to a homelessness issue.

(2) I did not choose a flatbed because the overall height becomes so high for a 6’6” interior height work compartment.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

gradient said:


> I second the Honda external generator idea.  We used them many times for field work in residential neighborhoods with no problem with it placed outside the truck.  We were using the 2000W version and with just a solid plastic laundry basket over it (holes for inlet and exhaust) the noise level was about ambient at 10 feet distance.  We never had a complaint from fussy residents.  They are pricey but well worth it and a lot cheaper than a special van rig.  Easy to maintain and very reliable.  As mentioned, get genuine Honda.


Great tip. I would want to be able to easily remove and replace the generator. 

There is no need to connect the shop electronics to the vehicle’s electronics.


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## AlanB (Mar 21, 2020)

Honda generators are great. The EU2000's are very quiet and can be paralleled for more power to run air conditioners, etc. They are also quickly and frequently stolen.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

Well, let’s see how secure of a box I can build to frustrate a thief!


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

This whole project is going to cost me my larger lathe. There are not enough funds for a mobile lathe vehicle and a 14-16” swing lathe.


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## AlanB (Mar 21, 2020)

Some projects are interesting to think about but not practical to implement.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

AlanB said:


> Some projects are interesting to think about but not practical to implement.



I would be willing to trade the issues that I had at the Airbnb in Ohio for a new set of problems. My choice of entertainment seemed to be limited to books and a laptop. This is fine for a bit, but there has to be a way to be able to work with my hands.

We also had breaks and a 1 hour lunch every day at school. After weeks & months, that adds up to a lot of time.

Books and YouTube could solve this problem. 

Maybe a Sherline is small enough to use in a motel room.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 21, 2020)

I worked on the road for three years. Didn’t have any way to take hobby stuff with me. I ended up working 6 12’s simply because there was nothing else to do and the schedule demanded it. 
Evenings were spent doing paperwork as I was the PM, super for a crew of 10-12 and on the tools. 

When Sunday rolled around it was laundry and grocery day. 

My niece’s husband stayed with us while he did his classroom work for his plumbing ticket and we barely saw him as there was so much homework. 

Isn’t there homework at night?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

Maybe take up 3D printing?


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I worked on the road for three years. Didn’t have any way to take hobby stuff with me. I ended up working 6 12’s simply because there was nothing else to do and the schedule demanded it.
> Evenings were spent doing paperwork as I was the PM, super for a crew of 10-12 and on the tools.
> 
> When Sunday rolled around it was laundry and grocery day.
> ...



1 school had zero homework, another had a HUGE amount, and the one that I am going to now (42 weeks) has very little homework.

I see that a Sherline really sips power:


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## ErichKeane (Mar 21, 2020)

I liked the idea of converting the lathe to DC! You can then run it off 12v batteries, or the engine.

Also, there are sealed batteries that are approved for being inside the passenger compartment. They are more expensive (called AGM gel batteries I think), but don't outgas.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

Maximum power consumption of a Sherline is on the order of 1.75A X 110V = 192W. At normal operating conditions, it looks to be 60W. With a DRO and lighting, it looks like the power requirement is quite low here.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I had two Optima batteries (in parallel) in the cab of my truck for years. The Optimas never let me down.

Maybe with the Sherline in tandem with charging things in a motel room could negate the need for a generator.

This could make for almost silent work in the mobile lathe vehicle.


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## ErichKeane (Mar 21, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I had two Optima batteries (in parallel) in the cab of my truck for years. The Optimas never let me down.
> 
> Maybe with the Sherline in tandem with charging things in a motel room could negate the need for a generator.
> 
> This could make for almost silent work in the mobile lathe vehicle.


Optima!  Thats the famous AGM brand I couldn't think of!  You could also stick to the 2nd alternator idea and just charge them as you drive!  No idea how long you're on the road between evenings, but that might work.  Also, a 120v->12v battery charger could work if you have a spot with power.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

The motels are about a 10 minute drive from the school.

Considering that I can charge at the motel and the school, it is only a matter of selecting a power source at this point. The Sherline being such a power sipper is going to make everything so much easier.

If it is the case that an Optima doesn’t offgas, I would prefer those over a generator for noise and air quality considerations.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 21, 2020)

It was mentioned earlier that putting the first bit of charge goes quickly but to fully charge from an alternator takes hours. And a higher capacity alternator isn’t necessarily the answer because the batteries have a limit on how much current they can accept. 

When I had my sailboat I had two 200Ah deep cycles and one 120 Ah starting battery. 

I was running a 50 A alternator with a smart charge controller that topped off the starting battery first so I could always start the Diesel engine. Once that was topped up it switched to charging the deep cycle batteries. 

If I had been at anchor for a few days, it would take hours of motoring to bring the deep cycle batteries up to full charge. 

I also had a 15A Xantrax 120v shorepower charger that I used when docked. Even that would take several hours to recover the deep cycle batteries. I was very conservative with my power use, mainly lights and portable electronics off a 1000w inverter. 

All this to say that the design of a DC power system is a bit involved if it’s going to work properly and not roast your expensive batteries.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I think they designed the size of a car battery to have about as much weight as you want to carry very far. 

I am going to look at a power bank of two Optima batteries in parallel connected to an inverter. I would just carry the batteries into the motel room at night.

Eliminating a generator would allow me to reconsider a van.


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## ErichKeane (Mar 21, 2020)

If my quick googling is correct, Sherlines these days use a 90v DC motor.  In that case, I would NOT use an inverter, and just use a DC transformer and speed controller.  You might find that Sherline might already have this as an option.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> If my quick googling is correct, Sherlines these days use a 90v DC motor.  In that case, I would NOT use an inverter, and just use a DC transformer and speed controller.  You might find that Sherline might already have this as an option.



I am sure that Sherline would know how to power their motor off of some 12V batteries in parallel. I will shoot an email off to them.

It seems like there would be plenty of room to work on a Sherline in a standard length, tall roof fullsize van. And plenty of window because it’s not a Creeper Van!


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

Creeper Van, that's what my kid called them....

When I was younger my housemate had an old friend from upstate New York move near us and his flat black rusted Chevy van sat in our backyard for a while, it always gave me the willies like something really bad had happened inside it. Fortunately that guy was eventually convicted for attempted kidnapping while borrowing my housemates camper, I hate to think what would have happened to his victim if the people in the Safeway parking lot hadn't gotten involved.  

In addition to having windows you might invest in some magnetic signs to put on the door while you are working. Something like "Erik's Mobile Machine Shop" so people walking by won't have to guess at what you're doing. Magnetic of course so you can take them down when it's parked, Depending on where you are it might make sense to actually build some little trinkets to sell assuming there isn't some bigger project you're working on.

If you order  the van new you can have it equipped with commercial security features and cabinets to hold stock and tooling, even used you could possibly get something a plumber had outfitted with a security cage and cabinets.

I'm liking the idea a lot better with the Sherline tools, you can have a complete shop with a lathe, mill, little belt grinder, saw, etc with those sizes of machines. Build your battery bank with solar on the roof and an exterior plug so you can hook up to charge without removing the batteries (that will get old pretty quick). Run the machines off DC if you can and use efficient LED lighting and you'll probably be okay on capacity assuming you can charge overnight at the motel. A small generator will also work and as noted the Honda's are really quiet.

I hold an ABYC Marine Electrical certification if you want to take this discussion to the next level. It's starting to sound like a  really neat project with all the different input here

Cheers,

John


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## DavidR8 (Mar 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Creeper Van, that's what my kid called them....
> 
> When I was younger my housemate had an old friend from upstate New York move near us and his flat black rusted Chevy van sat in our backyard for a while, it always gave me the willies like something really bad had happened inside it. Fortunately that guy was eventually convicted for attempted kidnapping while borrowing my housemates camper, I hate to think what would have happened to his victim if the people in the Safeway parking lot hadn't gotten involved.
> 
> ...


John is the go-to guy for 12v DC stuff. I'm a total 12v hack that managed to get lucky and had a lot of help from folks like John.


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## markba633csi (Mar 21, 2020)

I would upgrade the battery, upgrade the alternator and buy a large quasi-sine wave inverter (more efficient than pure sine and less costly per watt)
That should do it. If you can get by with a smaller lathe motor like 1/2 HP that would help reduce the power requirements
-Mark


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I would like to call it Little Machine Shop, but we all know that name is already taken.

Looking at the Sherline products, I see that these machines are small enough to where I can add a milling machine.

So I will delay my plan to get a 16X60 lathe for awhile because my PM-1030V does everything I want it to do. This will provide funding.

I still want to get a handle on how this will all be powered. Adding a Sherline mill does not increase the power capacity needed because I can only use one machine at a time.

I can also use this at work because I have to take breaks there, too.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I will open my mind to solar panels because they are quiet and the space on top of the vehicle is not being used.

If the vehicle is clean & innovative, any police officer who might want to make an issue might conclude that I know what I am doing & that I won’t cause an environmental hazard or other annoyance.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 21, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I will open my mind to solar panels because they are quiet and the space on top of the vehicle is not being used.
> 
> If the vehicle is clean & innovative, any police officer who might want to make an issue might conclude that I know what I am doing & that I won’t cause an environmental hazard or other annoyance.


The sun is free power


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

So I hope to have something ready to go in early 2021.

I won’t buy anything until I figure out the power system.

I don’t like automobiles very much. The only vehicle that appeals to me is the Ram Promaster.


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## Winegrower (Mar 21, 2020)

This is a great idea, since every RV, camper, etc. that I ever had would have benefitted immensely from carrying a lathe and mill around with it.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 21, 2020)

a friend/ colleague of mine lives in a Ram Promaster. She has a large AGM battery and a bank of solar panels on top of the van, with a charge controller and inverter inside. The panels can be raised for better efficiency, but she tends to keep them flat against the room for stealthiness. By and large it works okay, though a spell of cold cloudy days can run the AGM down to the point where she can't run her little fridge (60W). I built her a backup bank of LiFePO4 batteries that she can charge at work to run her fridge, but she hasn't really got the hang of that for some reason. You'd be able to run a small lathe (Sherline, 7x14) or minimill of that easily.

Downsides - fuel economy sucks, I think she gets around 18mpg highway as she's basically driving a giant brick. Also you're looking at a pretty significant chunk of change - her van cost her $50,000 all set up and about 2 to 3 years old.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> a friend/ colleague of mine lives in a Ram Promaster. She has a large AGM battery and a bank of solar panels on top of the van, with a charge controller and inverter inside. The panels can be raised for better efficiency, but she tends to keep them flat against the room for stealthiness. By and large it works okay, though a spell of cold cloudy days can run the AGM down to the point where she can't run her little fridge (60W). I built her a backup bank of LiFePO4 batteries that she can charge at work to run her fridge, but she hasn't really got the hang of that for some reason. You'd be able to run a small lathe (Sherline, 7x14) or minimill of that easily.
> 
> Downsides - fuel economy sucks, I think she gets around 18mpg highway as she's basically driving a giant brick. Also you're looking at a pretty significant chunk of change - her van cost her $50,000 all set up and about 2 to 3 years old.



Hopefully not having any living quarters in the van will keep costs down. There was a time in my life when I was interested in automobiles, but now I just look at them as a tool to get from point A to point B (and apparently to house tiny machine tools).

My tentative plan is to buy a used RAM Promaster and try to use solar along with AGM or lithium ion batteries to power the interior lighting, Sherline lathe & mill with DROs. 

I can charge other things like phone, laptop, and cordless tools in the motel room.

I will save room in the van for the milling machine, but that will not be purchased until later. When I head off in 2021, I’m okay with just a lathe.

I think that both machine tools use the same motor: a 90V DC as in the screenshot above. The electrical system for the work area will be independent from that of the van. I will have to figure out how to supply power to the 90V DC motor and the 110V AC DRO. 

Since there is a DRO, I would just go with an inverter with 110V outlet. If this is the plan, I would just have to calculate how much power I would need and figure out how many solar panels would provide this.


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## Aaron_W (Mar 21, 2020)

I have both a Sherline 4400 lathe and a 5400 mill, before you buy anything you are welcome to check them out. They are very portable and could fairly easily be built into a transport safe box mount. 

I ran the lathe in a spare bedroom when I first got into this insanity, I would see no issue running on in a motel room. Chip control is a minimal issue,  a drop cloth or tarp should be quite adequate. When I had mine set up in the house I put it on a 2x4ft piece of plywood with a 12" high backsplash, it is a carpeted room and chips were not an issue.

Getting the mill is what moved me into the basement, mills are chip flinging tools. That might be more of an issue in a motel.

These are quite small machines, but very capable within their size constraints.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I have both a Sherline 4400 lathe and a 5400 mill, before you buy anything you are welcome to check them out. They are very portable and could fairly easily be built into a transport safe box mount.
> 
> I ran the lathe in a spare bedroom when I first got into this insanity, I would see no issue running on in a motel room. Chip control is a minimal issue,  a drop cloth or tarp should be quite adequate. When I had mine set up in the house I put it on a 2x4ft piece of plywood with a 12" high backsplash, it is a carpeted room and chips were not an issue.
> 
> ...



Aaron, you are one of two forum members who has visited my shop. 

If not for the current public safety crisis, I would come up and see the machines now! When this craziness settles down, I will come visit your shop.


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## ErichKeane (Mar 21, 2020)

DROs actually run 12v and 5v DC as well. If you find one with an external transformer, you can just wire that to a DC source as well. An internal transformer is a bit more work, but might be worth it as well.


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## Aaron_W (Mar 21, 2020)

Anytime, tiny machines are not for everybody,but if making huge chips isn't required to keep you occupied, then these might be a great solution to your issue.

Thinking about it they could easily be built into locking storage boxes with room for tooling storage and still be kept to around 100lbs each.

Also I'm in a FB Sherline group I'll see if anyone has experience running them on a portable power source.


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## ErichKeane (Mar 21, 2020)

PS: the reason to try to skip an inverter if you can: the battery 12v to 110v conversion has about a 10% power loss, as does going the other way. So if you can find a way to power your equipment right off the 12v supply (voltage conversion I'm DC is really cheap!), You can pick up nearly 20% more capacity while saving weight.


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## Rootpass (Mar 21, 2020)

Ford still make transmissions the have a PTO. Might be something to consider.


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## Rootpass (Mar 21, 2020)

Buy a toy hauler/camper and stay in Campground’s?


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 21, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> Hopefully not having any living quarters in the van will keep costs down.



it will some, but a large chunk of the cost are the panels, battery (esp. LiFePO4) and control circuitry. Panelling and prettiness obviously costs, but I'd spend some time looking into total power needs and systems costs. You may be surprised by how much it adds up to - several times the cost of a good quality generator would be my best estimate.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I have no place to park any kind of trailer where I live.


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## Bi11Hudson (Mar 21, 2020)

Right up front, *there is no DC-DC transformer*. Period. You would use an inverter to get AC, transform it to the desired voltage, and then rectify that back to DC. Simplist would be to use the high voltage DC directly. 90 volt DC motor controls are usually used from 120 AC power. A good combination there~~~

That said, would you consider an "old school" cab-over camper? The forward bunk space will serve as an air dam outside. You would get the stand-up space needed, if for nothing more than stretching, which will be needed, trust me. Not using it as a bunk opens up a lot of generic space, although I would be careful of the weight forward. 

A 3/4 ton pickup is a given with a diesel, and a good idea for a camper anyway. I have had both a Ford and a Chev 3/4 ton with king cab and a short bed. The combination worked to keep overall length down. I don't know what sort of camper shell could be found that would fit that combination though. Normal usage would be a straight cab pick-up with an 8 foot bed and a cab over rig. I'm sort of partial to King Cabs for traveling. A lot would depend on your milage driven.

Batteries inside living/working space is a bad move. Although *I am biased*, having been burned with that situation. Burned literally, with the acidic smoke getting into my lungs. Made a hell of an impact on my income stream as I transitioned from working as a mill electrician to a fiber optics splicer.

There are several considerations for space for your work and other that only you can make. But I stand on my comments about using a small 120 volt generator with an externally accessable enclosure. Keep the CO outside and avoid using the propulsion engine for extended power usage.

.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

Bi11Hudson said:


> Right up front, *there is no DC-DC transformer*. Period. You would use an inverter to get AC, transform it to the desired voltage, and then rectify that back to DC. Simplist would be to use the high voltage DC directly. 90 volt DC motor controls are usually used from 120 AC power. A good combination there~~~
> 
> That said, would you consider an "old school" cab-over camper? The forward bunk space will serve as an air dam outside. You would get the stand-up space needed, if for nothing more than stretching, which will be needed, trust me. Not using it as a bunk opens up a lot of generic space, although I would be careful of the weight forward.
> 
> ...



Anything that looks residential (like someone might be sleeping in it) would cause me problems in my neighborhood. 

My city might have the worst homeless problem in the whole country. People seeing RVs and campers parked on the street sets them off.


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## AlanB (Mar 21, 2020)

Pickup campers are not a problem. Especially if you take out the bed.


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> Anything that looks residential (like someone might be sleeping in it) would cause me problems in my neighborhood.
> 
> My city might have the worst homeless problem in the whole country. People seeing RVs and campers parked on the street sets them off.



We have a lot of that here in Santa Cruz as well, everything from meth-heads living in clapped out vans to high-end Sprinter type rigs with rich folks inside. People have a right to be concerned about their neighborhood becoming a campground, apparently Santa Rosa doesn't even let your park a camper on your own property either.





__





						Vehicles | Santa Rosa, CA
					

Read more about regulations concerning auto dismantling, campers, RVs, and more.




					www.srcity.org
				




So, if you did want a camper you would have to pay for storage. I have my trailer stored in Nevada where it's cheap $45/mo but I'd be pretty angry if my city restricted what kind of legally registered vehicle I could have on my property.

I did live in a truck camper for about a year twenty years ago and I was able to find parking where I didn't get hassled. Most towns now have ordinances though which prohibit sleeping in vehicles on the street.

This is something that we need to deal with as a society since so many folks were already living on the edge before the virus eliminated so many jobs.

So, we have officially strayed off-topic but now I understand why it's so difficult for you to come up with a good solution. Maybe this summer just try running a Sherline lathe in your motel room, plastic makes a great material to practice with and the chips won't hurt your feet if some go astray.

John


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> We have a lot of that here in Santa Cruz as well, everything from meth-heads living in clapped out vans to high-end Sprinter type rigs with rich folks inside. People have a right to be concerned about their neighborhood becoming a campground, apparently Santa Rosa doesn't even let your park a camper on your own property either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have lived in Santa Rosa, CA almost all of my life, and I think I have a sense of what I can get away with here. I’m sure that I’m going to end up with what looks like a nice contractor van. I think having windows will help a lot to quell peoples worst fears.

The school that I will be going to for two months a year for the next six years is in Troy, OH. I was just there; it is a small town, and the cops definitely know what is going on. You have to keep it on the up and up. Sleeping in the van would be a problem. Having a motel room and putting money into their local economy would make things all right.

I see that there are a lot of battery powered generators available. They come in varying sizes, and the ones that I am looking at are the size of a briefcase. They can be charged by 12V (car cigarette lighter jack), 110V AC or solar panels. It is pretty cool that there are three different ways to charge them! They have lithium-ion batteries, and the item description says that there are no fumes.

The one in the pictures below is 2400Wh. It can output 1000W continuous or 2000W for up to 2 minutes.


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## brino (Mar 21, 2020)

I have nothing useful to contribute, except "Great thread!" 

Late to it, but I have read every post.
Interesting input everyone.
Thanks,
-brino


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## AlanB (Mar 21, 2020)

links were filtered out


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

AlanB said:


> links were filtered out



I have never figured out how to post a link on the forum using my phone. How about this for now?


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## Aaron_W (Mar 21, 2020)

I posted the idea of running a Sherline off of a vehicle in the Sherline group I'm in. Only a few responses so far but one suggested a battery pack similar to that posted above.

Inergy Apex


Another brought up cordless tools, apparently Dewalt Flexvolt batteries can be set up to provide 120v. Supposedly a pair of them can provide about 1-1/2 hours at 120v.

Dewalt Flexvolt


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## matthewsx (Mar 21, 2020)

Yes, I do see your problem. Regulations meant to control a nuisance become a nuisance to the very citizens they are meant to protect.
Buying a van that you don't otherwise have need for just seems like an extreme solution to the problem especially when it will be pretty much unused for 10 months out of the year.

The cost of the van would make a really nice down payment on a house in the area.









						1115 Long St
					

All brick cape cod featuring 3 bedrooms and a full, remodeled bath! Large living room, kitchen with appliances remaining, unfinished basement with laundry and storage. Upstairs you will find an open space with hardwood floors and huge walk-in closet! Replacement windows, some newer flooring and...




					www.realtor.com
				




Any thought it might make sense to become a landlord there? Just thinking out of the box here, if you expect to be there for a few months every year for the next several years it might be a good investment.

John


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Yes, I do see your problem. Regulations meant to control a nuisance become a nuisance to the very citizens they are meant to protect.
> Buying a van that you don't otherwise have need for just seems like an extreme solution to the problem especially when it will be pretty much unused for 10 months out of the year.
> 
> The cost of the van would make a really nice down payment on a house in the area.
> ...



I have thought about buying property there. The property in adjacent towns is even cheaper. I wouldn’t leave any tools there for 10 months without keeping an eye on them. I would consider buying bare land and putting up a small metal building. I would not, however, want to create a situation where I am dealing with tenants.

I will be using this van the other 10 months out of the year. I don’t even have a car now.

My garage is bursting at the seams. I have some metrology equipment that doesn’t fit in the tool chests, and there is no room for more tool chests in the garage.


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## erikmannie (Mar 21, 2020)

I will take stock of the best case scenario where I’m at so far.:

(1) shelf the 16X60 lathe idea & keep the 10X30 as my big lathe,
(2) buy a used Ram Promaster high roof with windows. 1/2, 3/4 or 1 ton & length depends on what I can get cheap, 
(3) expect to address cosmetics on the van which may be body repair and white paint job,
(4) buy a Sherline lathe,
(5) determine what sized portable power generator I need, and buy one just a little bigger than that,
(6) install custom work tables and tool boxes,
(7) keep working that overtime and try not to get coronavirus.


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## erikmannie (Mar 22, 2020)

So I slept on this and I decided that I am going to do it. Hopefully, the “portable sine wave battery powered generators” above will power a 1 HP PM-1030V because for all of the money & effort put into this mobile lathe rig, I want to make sure that it contains a lathe that I really like. No milling machine will fit. 

I am going down today to commit to a 159” wheelbase 1 ton high roof RAM Promaster, new and blue (to match the lathe) with a 134” wheelbase. This is the shortest version of this van. It only needs to contain the one machine tool with associated tooling, 1 or 2 of the aforementioned portable power boxes, and one operator.

The van has no passenger seat. I ordered doors on both sides and windows all around. It takes 3 months to configure the van. 

I got the additional side door on the driver’s side because I anticipate a lot of steel chips. I can’t blow chips out on to the ground so I will need access to get behind there & sweep.

Is there anything that I am failing to consider, particularly with regard to safety or power?

The vehicle has a 220A alternator & I will get an inverter which can either charge the power boxes or the lathe. I don’t plan to idle the vehicle while the lathe is going, and I don’t plan on solar panels.


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## matthewsx (Mar 22, 2020)

For the cost I would be inclined to build my own battery bank, also convert the lathe to DC to avoid inverter loss but I understand your desire to keep it simple. I would also definitely go with solar since that could minimize moving batteries around.

Is there an advantage to not having a passenger seat? It would seem like you might want to have someone ride along at some point, unless the space is absolutely needed for tools I would include one. 

Also, did you get a security cage? Even if it wasn't needed for security you will want it there for your own safety while driving. A 10x30 lathe is quite a big chunk of iron that you don't want landing in your lap.

Cheers,

john


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## erikmannie (Mar 22, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> For the cost I would be inclined to build my own battery bank, also convert the lathe to DC to avoid inverter loss but I understand your desire to keep it simple. I would also definitely go with solar since that could minimize moving batteries around.
> 
> Is there an advantage to not having a passenger seat? It would seem like you might want to have someone ride along at some point, unless the space is absolutely needed for tools I would include one.
> 
> ...



Lathes are dangerous enough without having one in your van when you have a high speed accident.

Regarding the “shop” power supply, I do want to keep it simple and “modular”. I don’t know if I am using that term correctly, but by “modular” I mean to say that I can remove and replace the battery pack, either to take it in the house (or motel) with me, or substitute in a different solution.

I deleted the passenger seat because I am desperate for space! The parking in front of our house seems to call for a regular sized vehicle (California is crowded!). We have 8 people in our house. This van will be the sixth vehicle, and one of the kids just turned 16 with another teenager right behind him. Imagine how much our neighbors will hate us when we have 8 vehicles.

The only place I can think to place the lathe (which is one of the most important decisions) is just inside the passenger’s side sliding door. This allows access to the rear of the headstock (for electrical repairs), and allows me access to the back of the machine to clean up the cutting fluid & chips. Having no passenger’s seat allows access to the change gears, and leaves space open for a long workpiece passing through the spindle.

The portable battery (or two) will probably live where a passenger would have sat.

In short, the entire passenger’s side is devoted to the lathe and battery (or two). I am not sure if I will be able to walk from the driver’s seat to the rear—I might have to go around via the outside of the vehicle. My lathe footprint is 55” long X 34” deep. The van is 136” wheelbase. I will have no cargo partition.


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## erikmannie (Mar 22, 2020)

I can see that this will be really cramped. It looks like the entire space between where a cargo partition would go all the way back to where the wheel wells start needs to be allocated to only a lathe and operator.

The lathe, on it’s chip tray, can hang over the passenger’s wheel well 6”, so that may allow the operator to walk from the cab to the work area.

The driver’s side wheel well will be swallowed up into a custom steel tool cabinet which is as high as the ceiling. 

The only way that I can see to fit a work table (and chair!) in there is to put it all the way to the rear which would block the rear doors.

That would be super funny if a thief busted open the passenger’s slider & found themselves blocked by a lathe, only to then smash in the rear doors and find themselves blocked by a table.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 22, 2020)

One thing you will want to engineer well is how the lathe is secured to the floor. Assuming it's on the passenger side, a emergency manoeuvre such as a sudden lane change is really going to stress its mountings.
Best case it leans against the passenger side wall, worst case it comes loose and tips over to the drivers side.


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## higgite (Mar 22, 2020)

I haven’t read this whole novel because, honestly, it sounds like an accident waiting to happen, but I can’t in good conscience not ask a question about the location and mounting of the lathe in particular. As has already been pointed out, having a lathe land in your lap can ruin your day. How will the stand be secured to the floorboard? Is the floorboard up to the task? A lathe on, say, a 30” stand can put put a lot of stress on the stand, mounting bolts, nuts, washers, floorboard, etc., in a tight turn or sudden stop or unscheduled change of direction when T-boned by a local NASCAR wannabe. Just asking. Be safe.

Tom

Edit: I see David beat me to it while I was typing.


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## erikmannie (Mar 22, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> One thing you will want to engineer well is how the lathe is secured to the floor. Assuming it's on the passenger side, in a emergency manoeuvre such as a sudden lane change is really going to stress its mountings.
> Best case it leans against the passenger side wall, worst case it comes loose and tips over to the drivers side.



This is the stand. It is currently bolted to my concrete garage floor.

I have had 4X4s with mild steel tubing roll cages (in the cab). I welded a steel plate to the floor and then welded the cage to that. 

If I were to do that in this vehicle, I would do so with smaller chromoly tubing welded in to protect the driver.

I definitely do not trust the van’s sheet metal floor. I would weld a steel plate to the floor, and then use the same Grade 8 fasters that are currently mounting the stand to my concrete floor, as well as the lathe to the stand. The weak link there is the three Grade 8 bolts mounting the lathe to the top of the stand.


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## erikmannie (Mar 22, 2020)

I can weld in a few columns that would keep the lathe away from the driver in a worst case scenario.


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## AlanB (Mar 22, 2020)

1500 watt sinewave inverter and a 12V 100AH lithium battery should handle it for awhile. Add a charger and done. Get a second battery if you need more capacity. Then you can charge one while using the other if you need to. For a motor you want quite a bit of headroom on the inverter. They usually have double peak capacity.


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## AlanB (Mar 22, 2020)

Probably don't want to weld to the van's sheet metal floor. Also skip the factory sheet metal cabinet/stand. Design a square tube steel stand that gets bolted through the floor to the van's frame in four places. Put the lathe against the wall behind the driver and provide for some access for those limited times it is needed, by unbolting something and swinging it out. Get creative.


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## Aaron_W (Mar 22, 2020)

Looking at the specs for a Promaster it looks like you could fit the lathe crossways, which would then allow you to keep the passenger seat and put a significant barrier between the front seats and the cargo area. If you are going with a door on each side that would provide you with access to the ends of the lathe if needed.

Specs say 56" between wheel wells and 75" overall cargo width. I assume that is at the floor, but it should still leave a few inches on either side at the mounting height.

That seems like it would also provide you with more working space having the whole back of the van vs the width. Of course you would not be able to access the back from the front, but I wouldn't think that was a serious issue. It could also make the van more usable for hauling something with the lathe removed.


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## erikmannie (Mar 22, 2020)

AlanB said:


> Probably don't want to weld to the van's sheet metal floor. Also skip the factory sheet metal cabinet/stand. Design a square tube steel stand that gets bolted through the floor to the van's frame in four places. Put the lathe against the wall behind the driver and provide for some access for those limited times it is needed, by unbolting something and swinging it out. Get creative.



Let me consider some of the advantages and disadvantages of putting the lathe directly behind the driver. 

(1) I would definitely have 2 or 3 vertical chromoly columns to protect the driver from the lathe surging forward in the event of an accident. These columns would be directly behind the seat when it is moved all the way back. That is easier than adding protective columns for a lathe on the passenger’s side. The 2 collision scenarios are a high speed head on collision & me back ending someone at a high rate of speed, so the protective columns will have to be pretty large because those scenarios would be projecting the bed into my spine.

(2) I need to leave just enough room to get the tailstock in and out. Like I said, the chip tray can hang over the wheel well a little bit.

(3) Accessing the rear of the headstock for the occasional electrical repair would require unbolting the lathe (at the chip tray) & swinging it out for the service job.

(4) I need to leave the area above the driver’s wheel well clear for access to the change gears and long work pieces placed through the spindle. I will probably just leave a clear space all the way to the back; this van is not long, so that is only another 8 inches.

(5) With no passenger seat and no cargo partition, the rest of the floor plan is open country where the following items are needed:
     (a) inverter and battery (or two),
     (b) work table and chair.
     (c) tool cabinet (like I said, I want this to swallow up the passenger’s side wheel well and rise to the ceiling).

(6) Since the lathe operator is facing the lathe with the passenger’s side sliding door behind him, the passenger’s side sliding door is the emergency exit. This is good because I need to block the rear doors with the work table and chair. 

The battery (or two) can go behind the lathe (in my garage, I have a garbage can in that space now). I don’t know where I would mount the inverter.


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## erikmannie (Mar 22, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Looking at the specs for a Promaster it looks like you could fit the lathe crossways, which would then allow you to keep the passenger seat and put a significant barrier between the front seats and the cargo area. If you are going with a door on each side that would provide you with access to the ends of the lathe if needed.
> 
> Specs say 56" between wheel wells and 75" overall cargo width. I assume that is at the floor, but it should still leave a few inches on either side at the mounting height.
> 
> That seems like it would also provide you with more working space having the whole back of the van vs the width. Of course you would not be able to access the back from the front, but I wouldn't think that was a serious issue. It could also make the van more usable for hauling something with the lathe removed.



Oh, this is a revelation. It had not occurred to me to exploit the two side doors and position the lathe horizontally. Like you said, this would involve having to go outside the vehicle to get from the cab to the work area. 

I will think about that as I go off here to commit to spending a large amount of money.


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## erikmannie (Mar 22, 2020)

OK, so this is going to happen.

Here is the uncropped floor plan. Like I said, I ordered a 136” wheelbase.


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## matthewsx (Mar 23, 2020)

Chromoly is overkill for this kind of application as are grade 8 bolts IMHO.


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## matthewsx (Mar 23, 2020)

Have you joined this group to see if we have any members in the Troy area?









						Midwest Machinists
					






					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 23, 2020)

I would go the toy hauler, if of course the budget can cope. Advantage you have sleeping, cooking and all the accommodation conveniences of a regular caravan or motorhome plus plenty of room in a separate compartment for the lathe and whatever other toys you might have. If you are camping in regular campsites you should have sufficient power on site. 

If you want to be power independent just do a cost / convenience analysis between stand alone AC gen set. and upgraded alternator, batteries and inverter, if you choose the battery route I'd seriously consider lithium batteries, they will outperform auto lead acid batteries hand over fist. they last longer and are much lighter, yes they do cost more, but over their life they are actually quite a bit cheaper, and unlike regular batteries they don't mind being left idle for extended periods.

Another thing to be aware of is auto alternators don't like putting out full, power at idle you will need to set up some means of adjusting a high idle about 30 to 50% above normal.


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 23, 2020)

Some years ago while travelling around (Australia), with my kids, towing a 20ft caravan. I met up with some folks who had a mobile workshop, two actually. They were two families, mum, dad, and a bunch of kids, they lived in two 24 ft caravans each towed by a 7 ton dual cab truck. In the back of each truck was a workshop. 

One had a lathe, a mill and a decent size drill press. plus a fitters bench, a small grinder for sharpening lathe tools and drills, the other had a couple of arc welding sets plus oxy, a couple of decent grinders, this one also had a 15kva 3ph diesel gen set, which gave them enough power to run everything, including the vans for when they were off site. 

They spent their lives travelling around the country, heading north in the winter, and south in the summer, calling into remote farms, towns and villages. Repairing sharpening end generally fixing things up. Chatting with them they had a good life, and I gathered earned good money, The kids loved it different school every week. 

I would loved to have done that, but there was no way my wife would have any part of it, so it remained a pipe dream.


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## Superburban (Mar 23, 2020)

I believe you can get the van with dual 220 amp alternators. I would do the, and then you can easily add a few extra batteries for lights and other stuff.


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## Silverbullet (Mar 24, 2020)

JimDawson said:


> If you insist on running the van engine to power the lathe then I would install a second high output alternator and dedicate it to the tool power.  Many emergency vehicles have dual alternator setups.  If buying a new full size van, a dual alternator system may be a standard(ish) option.  Aftermarket high output alternators are very available, and most likely full installation kits for dual setups for about any vehicle.
> 
> Having said that, a 2000W or 3000W Honda generator is very quiet and would easily run your lathe.  Pure sine wave output also, and they have pretty good surge capacity.  But if you go that route make sure you buy genuine Honda from a Honda dealer.
> 
> ...


This is the way i think it will work the best. If you go the lithium battery route you will need a special charger and a panel to watch power used and left. They run totally out of power before charging but they get hot too. So time spent cooling will mean two batteries to lessen down time. Well it does for me with battery tools. Two alternators was my first thought and seperate batteries with switch to control the time fir charging. Van shouldnt need constant running.


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## AlanB (Mar 24, 2020)

Power tool batteries are pretty small compared to the power they output and this causes heating. A larger battery putting out only a little more power won't heat up much. Power tool batteries have 5 or 10 of the 18650 size cells, a 12V 100AH battery has around 100 18650 cells, or four massive prismatic cells. A lithium charger is required, these are hardly special these days. Many chargers are programmable for various chemistries.


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## matthewsx (Mar 24, 2020)

As has already been pointed out by others this is an interesting mental exercise, but not especially practical....

When I run the numbers I keep running up against the reality that buying a van and installing all these batteries along with the charging systems to make it work will come close to buying a piece of land  in Troy, OH.






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If this were me, and I was planning on attending this school for the next few years. I would buy real property with the money and get a toyhauler to live/work in. That would give me an investment that would probably not depreciate, and likely eliminate the problem of law enforcement or anyone else bugging me while I worked on my projects.

Trucks can be rented and/or equipment can be shipped. A 40' shipping container with a generator would also do the trick and give plenty of extra space to do whatever I wanted.

Having just lived in neighboring Michigan for the last 10 years I have a little experience with property there. We bought a commercial building on ~1 acre for just under $100k, built an additional 40 x 60 insulated and heated commercial pole building for ~$80k and sold the whole thing a few years later for $250k. It was the only profitable part of the business

I realize owning property in another state is a challenging proposition but so is setting up a lathe to make accurate cuts. That's one thing that hasn't really been addressed with all the discussion here, will a PM 10x30 lathe do good work mounted in the back of a van? The OP currently has it bolted to a concrete slab, that's very different than running it in a Walmart parking lot where you just parked 20 minutes ago.

So, I admit it, I love these mental exercises. But, what I personally want to do with hobby machining is get better at making really accurate parts and a parking lot just doesn't seem like the right place for doing that. If the goal is just to continue the hobby while away from home for 60 days learning CAD and 3D printing would provide a significant challenge for me. And, it could be done for a few hundred dollars in the comfort of my motel room.  I've been working conferences for the past six years so I've spent a LOT of nights in hotels, anything that can happen right there is what's most likely to happen anyway.

So, go for it if you really want a machine shop in a van. It might work great or you might find out why you don't see other people doing it very often. I just brought my shop trailer down from storage in Nevada and am contemplating if it makes sense to put any machine tools back into it but just getting it level enough to do accurate work would be a challenge....

Cheers,

John


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## Bi11Hudson (Mar 24, 2020)

There's several times the input of ideas for what you are attempting, so I won't add another here. What I want to bring up is the lathe/milling machine/whatever *needn't be level*. It must be true (to itself) and rigidly mounted, but level is only a *convenience* factor for checking position of the work. The important thing is that it must be rigid. Bolted to the floor doesn't cut it, it needs to be fastened to the frame.

I spent several years aboard ships, one of which was only steady when it was in dry dock. At sea, it rolled a little every time the tide came or went. (Icebreaker, round hull) The machine shop wasn't level to begin with and with the ship moving, it went every which way. But the machines were fastened to the deck rigidly. That's what matters. My shop was next door to the machine shop and I spent a great amount of time there. The work done was by a master of his craft.

.


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## erikmannie (Mar 25, 2020)

I was doing great at Hobart (the welding school) until the coronavirus outbreak. I had prepaid for an Airbnb for 57 nights plus a round trip airline ticket.

After I completed one course, they closed the school, and I had to buy another ticket to fly home. So that was about $2,000 down the drain right there. Like most people, I work very hard for my money one hour at a time. These days, I am paying $35 a night for this Airbnb room to sit empty, and I have two flights that I paid for that I will not take. I made the mistake of leaving about $200 worth of tools in my locker at school, and a suitcase with about $400 worth of clothing, etc. in it at the Airbnb (at the time, I thought that I would be returning in four weeks).

I work for UPS, and when I returned home my work needed me to return to my route because UPS is completely overwhelmed. I am working on my vacations now, so that is helping to save up for a huge lathe.

Long story short, I am just going to STAY HOME & buy a really nice PM-1660TL lathe and just take weekend welding & machining classes at The Crucible in Oakland, CA.

It is not anybody’s fault, but this one trip has left me disillusioned about traveling far away from home to take classes.

I have previously traveled to Oregon to take classes, and that worked out great because there was no public health emergency.

I had hoped for a complete, formal welding education, but I will just have to make do with the limited curriculum at The Crucible & get good at welding by practicing a lot at home.


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## erikmannie (Mar 25, 2020)

I am used to having a full shop available to me at home, and the evenings and weekends at school were too long for me to be satisfied with just books and a laptop. I like to work with my hands.

My wife was really happy with this development! She has been 100% behind the purchase of this large lathe from the very beginning. The order is $21,500. I am glad that I have a PM-1030V to use while I wait. I really love my PM-1030V. I should probably sell it when I get the larger lathe, but I have a while to think about that because it will take about 18 months to save up.


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## erikmannie (Mar 25, 2020)

With all the money that I would have used to buy a van, gas, motel room, and tuition, I could afford to pay a highly skilled, local welder to come to my garage and look over my shoulder and give me tips.

I was almost certainly never going to get a job in the welding industry, so I don’t need the diploma. UPS takes great care of my family and I will work there 11 more years until I retire at age 65. I was just going to the school to develop skills, so I will just have to do this without that school.

I really hope that one can develop a high level of welding & machining skill by spending a large amount of time on the machines, even with little formal education.

So there is some failure in this story, but I will try to glean whatever lessons there are to be learned from this attempt at a formal welding education and try to make the most of working at home.


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## matthewsx (Mar 25, 2020)

Hi Erik,

With all that's going on right now it has become super obvious how important the work you do is, thank you for keeping us supplied during this crisis....

That said I'm fairly sure your time and money will be better spent staying close to your family and developing your skills independently. Since you're not looking to change careers the certificate can wait until you are ready, and yes you could probably pay a tutor for less than travel expenses and tuition. This hobby is like any other and what you get out of it is largely dependent on what you put in, I'm sure what schooling you got from Hobart was helpful in learning the basics so you can go forward from there. You're probably already on WeldingWeb.com but if not that is where I would go to try and find a mentor.

One of the things I really enjoy about this place is the ability to kick around ideas without having to actually lay out the money to see if they will work. With so many people who have lifetimes of experience to share almost any plan can be evaluated quickly and flaws/opportunities exposed. I'm sure you could have made this idea work but it seems like more of a retirement project for when you don't have to worry about schedules or be in a specific location.

I have good friends in Santa Rosa who I will  be visiting as soon as we get the all clear and would love to meet you in person.


Cheers,

John


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## NortonDommi (Mar 26, 2020)

Here are two good sites if you ever have any spare time.  I wish YouTube  and computers had been around when I was young, or maybe not as I probably wouldn't have done a lot!  One can lean a lot from watching someone good do something, after all that is how we start in an apprenticeship before having a go ourselves.
  Given that you already have the basics and a feel for welding plus hopefully some sound theory as well,(Manufacturers websites are great resources),I agree with *matthewsx , *the certificate can wait.  








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						Weld.com
					

We teach the art and science behind welding and fabrication. "Behind the hood" arc shots get you up close and personal with the weld. In addition to showing ...




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Other resources such as: Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine  are where you can find good books. 
  Although modern welders make life easy in some ways they also complicate things with a vast array of setting choices but at the end of the day the basics never change.
  We are 1 day into a 4 week lockdown here and already some people are going stir-crazy because they have no hobbies!


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## Old Mud (Mar 26, 2020)

Erik, something you may want to consider. Many roads have a well defined crown. If it were me i would give a thought to this when setting up your weight load. The driver side is the high side. If all your big weight was on the low side and you had a blowout well that wouldn't be pretty . (Dont ask me how i know that).


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## erikmannie (Mar 28, 2020)

So I still wanted a formal welding education AND the ability to work on a machine on evenings & weekends during the 9-19 months of classes so my wife & bought one of the most junky houses you’ve ever seen a full 26 minutes drive from The Hobart Institute.

The house was $9,500 and most of the value is in the lot. I will bring my oxyacetylene cart & one of my welding machines so that I can have some proper entertainment on evenings & weekends.

This house is so junky that nobody would hesitate to use a torch or welder in it. I’m sure I will be a real hit with the neighbors, but I am used to that where I live now.


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## erikmannie (Mar 28, 2020)

So at this point the thread has completely changed course, but it may be instructive to anybody who has a desire to be able to do shop work while away at school.

I will need to see about the opportunity for a 220V outlet. I have a 40A breaker in my shop now & I have never tripped that.

I will also have to develop great ventilation and fireproofing, as well as protect onlookers from the arc.

The house is right across the street from a church in a town that is so small that it only has about 5 streets.


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## matthewsx (Mar 28, 2020)

Congratulations Erik

I figured you might end up doing this. Good luck with the new place and make sure to hit up the church a few times while you are there, and the local watering hole....

They might look at you a little funny with California plates and all but once they figure out you're not from "that part" of CA it'll be okay. Never know you might even make some friends and anything you do to fix up a junker house will be appreciated by the neighbors.

Cheers,

John


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## Aaron_W (Mar 28, 2020)

$9500 is less than you would have spent just on the motel rooms.


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