# Mystery Horizontal Mini Milling Machine (Northern Illinois Machinists LMG-3) made in USA?



## 9t8z28

I was on craigslist and I found a small supposedly USA made mini milling machine.  The tag on it says its made by Northern Illinois Machinists and the model number is a LMG-3.  I have never heard of them and googled the name and came up with nothing.  It looks like its a vertical milling machine but the Y-axis handwheel is a crank.  It looks to me like it is some kind of a surface grinder?  
Has anyone ever heard of this company or know anything about it or can you tell me anything about from looking at the pictures?
I am not sure if its allowed but here is the link.  https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/d/small-horizontal-milling/6662951956.html
I saved and posted some of the 12 photos he has posted on craigslist.  I am interested in this machine and wonder if its worth $450.  It comes with a rotary table that looks to be a Palmgren and it appears as though the surface is flaked by a Biax type scraper.  and it also comes with a small dividing head.  
Thanks
Brandon


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## Superburban

Looks like it may have started life as a surface grinder. If I was still in the area, I would definitely go look.

Interesting that the model number has the periods. L.M.G.-3-, and seems a high serial number for an unknown company. Gotta be an interesting story there.

I would buy it, but I'm a sucker for old  machines.

I bet Google will be busy with everyone trying to find any info they can. I've tried every combo I can think of, and will keep looking for a bit.


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## markba633csi

It looks similar to a Barker, somewhat of a dedicated machine to do certain repetitive jobs in a production capacity but not the best choice for a hobby machine I would say.  A small benchtop vertical mill would offer more versatility I think (drilling, for example)
mark


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## 9t8z28

I got an email into him.  Hopefully I hear back from him tomorrow and I can go look at it tomorrow.  I’ll post back here with what I find out.  Thanks for looking.  I think the rotary table, if it was maintanined is at least worth half of what he is asking although I do already have a 6” RT.  


Superburban said:


> Looks like it may have started life as a surface grinder. If I was still in the area, I would definitely go look.
> 
> Interesting that the model number has the periods. L.M.G.-3-, and seems a high serial number for an unknown company. Gotta be an interesting story there.
> 
> I would buy it, but I'm a sucker for old  machines.
> 
> I bet Google will be busy with everyone trying to find any info they can. I've tried every combo I can think of, and will keep looking for a bit.


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## 9t8z28

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction with Barker.  I  have never heard of Barker and just doing a quick Google search shows that they are very similar to each other.  
 I do already have a bench mill and bench lathe but it would be nice if it was sturdy enough to do some light duty milling that my bench mill can do but not well.  



markba633csi said:


> It looks similar to a Barker, somewhat of a dedicated machine to do certain repetitive jobs in a production capacity but not the best choice for a hobby machine I would say.  A small benchtop vertical mill would offer more versatility I think (drilling, for example)
> mark


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## Cooter Brown

I see these style horizontal mills all the time.... But this one has a very funny Y axis...

this is a Burke




no name on this one


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## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

I think that LMG is definitely a small surface grinder.


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## markba633csi

That big blue one is a Burke also, I believe it's a #2 or #3- Someone here bought one of those recently
The one you were looking at doesn't seem to have a provision for an overarm or if it does it's missing- that really limits you.  Also I don't think it was used for grinding; the pulley ratios look wrong for that.  Probably used for milling keyways and splines, etc.


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## Eddyde

I would buy that in a minute. Looks like it could be set up to grind or mill.


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## projectnut

I believe the second machine in the pictures is a US Machine Tools #1 horizontal mill.  They were built through the 1940's and were very popular in Defense Department plants throughout WWII.  US Machine Tools was later bought out by Burke.  The early Burke #1 was almost identical.

The lever on the left side of the table is the X axis handle.  They were used in production to make small parts so the table had to be able to move quickly in either direction.  There is a similar handle to raise and lower the milling head to accommodate taller parts.

My machine is an earlier version that uses a crank handle for raising and lowering the table, and a wood handle lever arm for the X axis rather than the hand wheels.  It isn't as pretty as the one in the picture, but it still owns its keep.  It was originally purchased for a machine shop at the company  I worked for.  When it was retired one of the engineers bought it for his violin and cello making business.  I bought it about 20 years ago from his son.


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## 9t8z28

What is funny about the Y axis ?  





Cooter Brown said:


> I see these style horizontal mills all the time.... But this one has a very funny Y axis...
> 
> this is a Burke
> View attachment 273886
> 
> no name on this one
> View attachment 273885


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## 9t8z28

I am starting to think that as well or at the least I think it is capable of being used as a surface grinder as long as I make the right changes, if possible 


BaronJ said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I think that LMG is definitely a small surface grinder.


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## 9t8z28

I am waiting to hear back from the seller to see if I can look at it today and hopefully buy it.  He did respond this morning. He said he doesn’t know much about it which in some ways is a good thing.   I’m definitely interested in setting it up as a grinder or to mill keyways and such.  My mill doesnt handle 3” or larger slitting saws very well and hopefully this machine can do that.   He also said that it doesn’t seem like it has been used very much but then again he said he doesn’t know much about how it works so ....   


Eddyde said:


> I would buy that in a minute. Looks like it could be set up to grind or mill.


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## BaronJ

Hi Guys,

Just guessing, but I think that the wheel collets may be missing and someone has discovered that 5C ones fit the spindle.  It is also missing the wheel guard.  It would be mounted using the two holes next to the spindle, there should be a pinch screw somewhere to nip the mounting rods.

Can't really see much else.


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## 9t8z28

That is an awesome machine and never knew these existed.   It looks very sturdy and well-built.   Do you know if Burke allowed or relabeled the names on their machines ?   I am thinking this machine might be a variation of one of these but scaled down but then again it seems like some of the parts like the column and made opposite of all of the Burkes I have seen so far.  
 On this machine I do not see a way of raising the table like some of them do, kinda like a knee on a Bridgeport. It looks as though you can only move the spindle up and down on the column 


projectnut said:


> I believe the second machine in the pictures is a US Machine Tools #1 horizontal mill.  They were built through the 1940's and were very popular in Defense Department plants throughout WWII.  US Machine Tools was later bought out by Burke.  The early Burke #1 was almost identical.
> 
> The lever on the left side of the table is the X axis handle.  They were used in production to make small parts so the table had to be able to move quickly in either direction.  There is a similar handle to raise and lower the milling head to accommodate taller parts.
> 
> My machine is an earlier version that uses a crank handle for raising and lowering the table, and a wood handle lever arm for the X axis rather than the hand wheels.  It isn't as pretty as the one in the picture, but it still owns its keep.  It was originally purchased for a machine shop at the company  I worked for.  When it was retired one of the engineers bought it for his violin and cello making business.  I bought it about 20 years ago from his son.
> 
> View attachment 273889
> View attachment 273890


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## projectnut

9t8z28 said:


> That is an awesome machine and never knew these existed.   It looks very sturdy and well-built.   Do you know if Burke allowed or relabeled the names on their machines ?   I am thinking this machine might be a variation of one of these but scaled down but then again it seems like some of the parts like the column and made opposite of all of the Burkes I have seen so far.
> On this machine I do not see a way of raising the table like some of them do, kinda like a knee on a Bridgeport. It looks as though you can only move the spindle up and down on the column



If it is an adaptation of a surface grinder the handle at the top of the column should have a dial with graduations of .0001".  The dial for the Y  control handle should have graduations of .001" or .002".  As Mark said this machine does not have the pulley ratio for grinding.  Grinders of this era were fixed at 3,600 rpm + or- a few rpm.

Some of the smaller benchtop horizontal mills didn't have an over arm.  There is currently a Burke #1 and a Goodell Pratt on eBay that don't have over arms.  The Goodell Pratt table is at a fixed height with the head being able to be raised and lowered by the crank at the back of the machine.  Given the age of the machine you are looking at I believe it is and always was a horizontal mill.  I also googled "antique bench top horizontal milling machine" and found several images of similar size machines without an over arm.

Burke:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Burke-Horizontal-Milling-Machine-No-1/292670008749?hash=item44247dedad:g:I2MAAOSwk1NbaAx0&_pgn=1&_sacat=0&_nkw=horizontal+milling+machine&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0

Goodell Pratt:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Goodell-Pratt-No-644-Miller-Horizontal-Bench-Top-Milling-Machine-refurb/202311081530?hash=item2f1aae1e3a:gX0AAOSwUQlavQYP:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!53711!US!-1&_pgn=2&_sacat=0&_nkw=horizontal+milling+machine&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0

I don't believe the collets are 5C.  They may be 2S or 3C, both of which I believe go up to 9/16".  The 5C collets need a bore large enough to handle a collet that will accept 1 1/8" stock.  Looking at the picture of the collet in hand I can't believe the body is big enough to accept 1 1/8" stock.  Also note the arbor which is .750" where the cutters fit, but probably no larger than .500" where it enters the collet.


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## Cooter Brown

9t8z28 said:


> What is funny about the Y axis ?



It looks like a lathe compound.....


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## benmychree

Definitely not a grinder; this is a production mill for small parts with repedetive operations such as cutting flats or slots, they have the hand lever table feed for fast operation, the same idea as is used in hand screw machines.


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## Nammar

My guess is that its a tool and cutter grinder, with some bits missing.


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## Cooter Brown

I have a Burke #4 horizontal mill and the design is very similar.


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## Cadillac

I can’t see it being a horizontal mill. The head doesn’t have the rigidity that a horizontal has. Just a guess but that sure looks like a tool and cutter grinder. Head looks like it’ll swivel. The one accessory pictured is a indexer which would be used in grinding. The table and functions look exactly like my t&c grinder. Mystery is spindle attachments? Accepts a collet or spindle. My bet is t&c grinder.


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## 9t8z28

I think I see what you mean by the head swiveling.  It does look as if it has the capability to swivel.  If it didn’t have the capability to swivel I would expect there to be a joint there but I might be totally wrong because I’ve never seen one of these in person before.   I hope it’s a T&CG !  
 The good news is that I am going to go take a look at it but the owner is not available until Wednesday.   Hopefully no one sneaks in an appointment with this guy and snatches it up before me.  


Cadillac said:


> I can’t see it being a horizontal mill. The head doesn’t have the rigidity that a horizontal has. Just a guess but that sure looks like a tool and cutter grinder. Head looks like it’ll swivel. The one accessory pictured is a indexer which would be used in grinding. The table and functions look exactly like my t&c grinder. Mystery is spindle attachments? Accepts a collet or spindle. My bet is t&c grinder.


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## 9t8z28

Oh, gotcha.   And you know what, I now see where the arm for the spindle mounts.   Right on top of what looks to be a lathe compound.   


Cooter Brown said:


> It looks like a lathe compound.....


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## 9t8z28

What is the typical rpm of a surface grinder today ?   I will  Google search the words you used and see if I can find any like this one. 
 I agree with you about the collets.  They do appear to be brown and sharpe #7 collets.   I can’t see how a 5C would come close to fitting at all.  
He does show an over arm in the pictures on craigslist,  or what he is referring to a over arm.   It’s slotted so it looks like it allows the head to be adjusted up and down.   I asked the owner a few questions about travel of each axis and this is what he said :

_“Hi Brandon this is (****), the guy selling the horizontal mill.  Just got back and saw your emails.  I think the travel on the x axis with the rack feed is about 11 inches of usable travel.  I think the table is 16 inches long.  The y travel has micrometer feed with acme screw it has somewhere around 6 in of travel.  The z axis ( vertical) is about six inches of travel”_



projectnut said:


> If it is an adaptation of a surface grinder the handle at the top of the column should have a dial with graduations of .0001".  The dial for the Y  control handle should have graduations of .001" or .002".  As Mark said this machine does not have the pulley ratio for grinding.  Grinders of this era were fixed at 3,600 rpm + or- a few rpm.
> 
> Some of the smaller benchtop horizontal mills didn't have an over arm.  There is currently a Burke #1 and a Goodell Pratt on eBay that don't have over arms.  The Goodell Pratt table is at a fixed height with the head being able to be raised and lowered by the crank at the back of the machine.  Given the age of the machine you are looking at I believe it is and always was a horizontal mill.  I also googled "antique bench top horizontal milling machine" and found several images of similar size machines without an over arm.
> 
> Burke:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Burke-Horizontal-Milling-Machine-No-1/292670008749?hash=item44247dedad:g:I2MAAOSwk1NbaAx0&_pgn=1&_sacat=0&_nkw=horizontal+milling+machine&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0
> 
> Goodell Pratt:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Goodell-Pratt-No-644-Miller-Horizontal-Bench-Top-Milling-Machine-refurb/202311081530?hash=item2f1aae1e3a:gX0AAOSwUQlavQYP:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!53711!US!-1&_pgn=2&_sacat=0&_nkw=horizontal+milling+machine&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0
> 
> I don't believe the collets are 5C.  They may be 2S or 3C, both of which I believe go up to 9/16".  The 5C collets need a bore large enough to handle a collet that will accept 1 1/8" stock.  Looking at the picture of the collet in hand I can't believe the body is big enough to accept 1 1/8" stock.  Also note the arbor which is .750" where the cutters fit, but probably no larger than .500" where it enters the collet.


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## 9t8z28

If I were to attempt to use this as a surface grinder, is it possible to make an arbor for a grinding wheel and use it in the spindle collet?


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## projectnut

Cadillac said:


> I can’t see it being a horizontal mill. The head doesn’t have the rigidity that a horizontal has. Just a guess but that sure looks like a tool and cutter grinder. Head looks like it’ll swivel. The one accessory pictured is a indexer which would be used in grinding. The table and functions look exactly like my t&c grinder. Mystery is spindle attachments? Accepts a collet or spindle. My bet is t&c grinder.



All horizontal mills I am aware of can accept either a spindle or collets.  My US Machine Tool mill has a B&S #9 taper.  It came with several B&S #9 collets to hold end mills and slitting saw arbors.


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## Cooter Brown

He forgot to post the most important pictures..... I don't think its a grinder.......

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/d/small-horizontal-milling/6662951956.html


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## 9t8z28

You’re right, I did not post all of the pictures because I thought it would be too much to download.   I figured anyone interested in seeing it would click on the link.  Sorry, my bad


Cooter Brown said:


> He forgot to post the most important pictures..... I don't think its a grinder.......
> 
> https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/d/small-horizontal-milling/6662951956.html
> 
> View attachment 273962
> 
> View attachment 273963


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## Superburban

I did click, and look. I guess I just focused on the handle. Never seen any mill with one, but with the descriptions, it makes sense.


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## Cadillac

Yeah after seeing them pieces it’s definately a mill.  I think of a overhead arm to support the arbor spindle on a horizontal. 
 I would still think it could be used as a t&c grinder. Adapt a wheel to a homebrew arbor. Shouldnt be hard runout can be taken care of with dressing stone. Grinding wheels usually have a 3600rpm limit. So if you can spin that thing at least 3k you should be alright.


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## 9t8z28

Thanks for the info.  Hopefully it will sping this fast.  If not I have a 2HP treadmill motor that I can retrofit to it.  



Cadillac said:


> Yeah after seeing them pieces it’s definately a mill.  I think of a overhead arm to support the arbor spindle on a horizontal.
> I would still think it could be used as a t&c grinder. Adapt a wheel to a homebrew arbor. Shouldnt be hard runout can be taken care of with dressing stone. Grinding wheels usually have a 3600rpm limit. So if you can spin that thing at least 3k you should be alright.


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## 9t8z28

Update.  I was supposed to go look at it tomorrow but the seller is now busy.  He’s gonna try and show it to me either Friday or Saturday.  Hopefully I get to it before anyone else does.  Craigslist is great for finding stuff but its always a PITA.


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## projectnut

Cadillac said:


> Yeah after seeing them pieces it’s definately a mill.  I think of a overhead arm to support the arbor spindle on a horizontal.
> I would still think it could be used as a t&c grinder. Adapt a wheel to a homebrew arbor. Shouldnt be hard runout can be taken care of with dressing stone. Grinding wheels usually have a 3600rpm limit. So if you can spin that thing at least 3k you should be alright.



I don't think I would try to spin the arbor fast enough to use it as a surface grinder.  The way it's set up now the spindle is going slower than the motor.  That's the case for almost any milling machine of this style.  I doubt the bearings will hold up at speeds north of 3,000 rpm, and I doubt the spindle is balanced well enough.

If you look at the specs for the US Machine tool machine pictured earlier it has a maximum spindle speed of 1640 rpm.  This machine uses ball bearings on all shafts including the spindle.   Also looking at the arbor support on the craigslist add you'll see it has a bronze bushing.    If memory serves correctly the maximum safe speed for this style bushing (plain bearing) is around 550 FPM.


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## 9t8z28

I spoke to the seller and I am hoping to go down tonight but unfortunately my vehicle broke down !
  I spoke to the seller last night and he says he also has a  Burke #4 horizontal Mill that he is considering selling as well.   Hopefully tonight I’ll go look at both of them, if not it will be on Saturday.


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## hman

Good luck!  Hope your seller is patient.


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## 9t8z28

I just got back from the sellers.  I was able to fix my van in time to head down to Philadelphia and thank goodness I brought it and not my car because NOT ONLY did I buy the LMG-3 mill but he GAVE ME a Burke B100-4 horizontal mill!   Granted it was all disassembled, but I guess that was a good thing because it’s very heavy.   This guy had a lot of machinery in the tiny basement of a tiny row home.   The steps were steep and narrow and it was a challenge to carry all this stuff out.   I must have made 10 trips up and down the steps using a dolly.  The Burke was the hardest thing to get up the steps.  The gearbox motor and the body of the machine (not sure what its really called) were the heaviest.  I will try and post pictures tomorrow, its too dark now and I’m whooped!


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## DiscoDan

We need an update on both machines!


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## BaronJ

We need more pictures !


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## 9t8z28

I know, my bad.  You guys gave me a lot of help and I gotta update this thread with pics.  I apologize for not posting them sooner.  I got real busy after I brought the mills home.  Tomorrow I will post pics after I assemble the Burke


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## 9t8z28

Update.  No pics yet. Sorry but I got a cold from my daughter and now the misses has it too.  Not feeling like doing much of anything until this is over except post and surf the forums here.  Again sorry.  I will get them posted eventually !


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## DiscoDan

Ok, a small reprieve but don't milk it! I am particularly interested because I am drawn to these smaller oddball mills. Don't keep me/us wiating.


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## Gary Ayres

Is this the one you got the Burke with?


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## 9t8z28

Gary Ayres said:


> Is this the one you got the Burke with?


Yes it is.  Pics coming soon


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## Cooter Brown

Pictures or it didn't happen.........


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## Gary Ayres

Interesting machine. 'Barker' was my first thought - but it isn't.

Tony at lathes.co.uk might be interested in your photo of it.

Look forward to the pics of your Burke.


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## 9t8z28

I just got back from putting together the Burke at my shop.   I now have my Trailblazer SS up on the lift all tore apart so I’ve been stuck working on that and havent had much time for anything plus still being sick with a cold.  The girlfriend wanted to help put the Burke together.   I bet she’ll never offer to do that again.  Sucker is heavy!   

The Y-axis handwheel is missing which I knew when I picked it up but somehow I also do not have the Y-axis Gib.   The previous owner swore that he gave it to me but I never saw.   It’s my fault for leaving without making sure I had it because now he knows nothing about it.  Figures...  oh well, I’ll just have to make one.  Not a real big deal.  
I find it odd that the knee uses a rack and pinion like the X-axis.  What would have been the purpose of needing to move the z-axis in such a fast motion?
Anyway, here are the pics as promised.   Let me know if there’s any other parts of the machine you want to see. I have more pictures or I can take more of a specific area of the machine


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## 9t8z28

Here is a picture of the power switch and some fuse boxes or whatever they are called.   I am not sure if the two smaller boxes are part of what Burke would have supplied with the machine.  They are painted to match the machine.   I’m not sure where the switch would have been mounted.   Any thoughts ?


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## 9t8z28

Here is a photo of the gearbox selector on the motor.   How many speeds or ranges does this have ?  4?  I know its not the best picture






Here is a photo of the moor/gearbox tag


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## 9t8z28

Here’s a picture of the original X-axis handle if anyone is interested in seeing it.  I think its pretty cool.  It survived along with the machine.   From what I’ve read and scene most of them have been either broken or replaced 














Here is the Z-axis handle.  It appears as though it is identical to the X-axis handle but obviously missing the wooden part.


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## 9t8z28

Here is the cabinet knob.  It mounting diameter and keyway slot is identical to the Y-axis leadscrew shaft.


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## 9t8z28

I have a few things I would like to point out and if you have anything that you see is incorrect or somethings missing please let me know.  

The belt shield is held on by 2 incorrect temporary screws.  They are not threaded into the hole so I did not strip out any holes before anyone asks   They are just there to give the effect of the shield in place.

The Y-axis handwheel is missing.  The handwheel that is on the machine is actually for the cabinet that the machine would have stood on.  I did a quick search on Ebay and found an original Burke #4 handwheel for $46.  Not a bad price but not sure if its worth getting an original.  

Accordi g to the research I have done, the base or tray to the machine is supposed to be installed this way.  I honestly thought it would have gone the other way but looking at pictures on the web it appears that it is supposed to function as a tray, not a base or stand.  

1 of the 2 motor mounts is broken and I do not have the missing piece.  

The arm that supports the spindle (not sure exactly what its called) is obviously not inserted all the way.  I have to clean it up first.  I did not want to force it in there and then have to fight to get it back out.  

With the motor installed the machine wants to topple over!  Of course it needs to be bolted down but I wasnt about to bolt it to my concrete floor haha.  I am really surprised at the weight of the motor.  I think it weighs just as much, if not more than the column or body or the machine.  The motor has its own gear box and I believe there are 3 speeds?  

With all of that said, I don’t know what I am going to do with this machine.  
Keep it
or
Sell it as is
or 
Clean it up, repaint it and repair
or
Part it out

What are your thoughts. What should I do with it?  I don’t know that I have the time to restore it or convert it to a surface grinder.  What’s it worth?  I have a feeling that it’s only worth as much as someone who is interested in it is willing to pay for it, and that aint a lot.  

On another note, I need to post this in the Burke specific section.  I realize now that no one interested in seeing Burkes will see this.  I will also post pictures of the LMG.  It was easier to get the Burke together down in my shop for photos because the LMG needs to go together but it needs to be transported into my basement first.  I dont have the energy anymore to assemble things twice!


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## 9t8z28

Here is a picture of the slotting saws and other type saws that he gave me.  Some are just dirty but almost all of them are still very sharp or brand new.  There are a couple of saws that I have never seen before like the 6 toothed saw.  Its pretty cool, not sure what I would use it for tho ?


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## hman

That 6 tooth saw kinda looks like it came from a biscuit jointer.  Notice that it doesn't have a keyway.


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## 9t8z28

I didnt know what a bisquit joiner was until I googled it.  The 6 tooth blade actually has about a 60 degree point and then the tip is flat.  Not sure if it could still be a bisquit joiner or not.  It has 2A stamped into it.  Not sure if it has any other text on the other side.  I took this photo about a week ago and would have to go look at the other side. 
The saw to the left of it has 60 degree points and they are sharp as hell!  Not sure what this would be used for either.  Maybe a bisquit joiner as well.  






hman said:


> That 6 tooth saw kinda looks like it came from a biscuit jointer.  Notice that it doesn't have a keyway.


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## Gary Ayres

Nice. if it was mine I'd hoard it with a view to doing a rebuild/cleanup/repaint job on it 'one day' when I had the time...

On your question above re the z-axis rack and pinion feed, I can think of two possibilities. The first is that it may be an older model. I believe quite a lot of older horizontal mills were set up that way. The second is that it may have been meant for production work making repeats of the same part. Once it's set up, you can machine one part after another pretty quickly with a lever feed. My No.0 has the same arrangement.


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## BaronJ

hman said:


> That 6 tooth saw kinda looks like it came from a biscuit jointer.  Notice that it doesn't have a keyway.



You beat me to it   My jointer has an almost Identical blade.  But that one looks much thicker.


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## 9t8z28

And here I thought I had some really cool high tech slitting saw haha. 


BaronJ said:


> You beat me to it   My jointer has an almost Identical blade.  But that one looks much thicker.


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## BaronJ

You have some very nice cutters there !
But if you don't want them...


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