# Looking for a Budget Mill



## Capt45 (Feb 14, 2020)

I've been looking for sometime now for a budget mill ($1500~$1800) and I've come to the conclusion that a budget Mill will probably be all I could afford or utilize to maximum benefit.  I know lots of folks, hobbists included tend to stay away from the round column Mills but I've been smitten by the Central Machinery 33686 Mill.  Anybody have this mill and could offer any insights?


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## DangerZone (Feb 14, 2020)

I'm in your same shoes, but I still think $1500 is more than I can spend on such a machine right now. Every time I ask someone, they just say anything you buy will leave you wishing you had a bridgeport if space isn't too big of an issue. And I'll say that at $1500, you're getting very close to used bridgeport prices in my area.

TLR - If I had $1500-$1800 I'd be looking at the cheapest used bridgeports near me, and see if someone asking $2500 would be willing to make a deal.


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## pontiac428 (Feb 14, 2020)

If you want a mill and that is your budget, then you are in Rong Fu territory.  My RF31 is a Central-branded Taiwan unit that, once adjusted and tweaked, has proven to work well- within it's weight class.  I'm looking forward to selling it after I get my big-kid mill installed, but I'll be letting go a machine whose quirks I know well.  So, yeah- round column mills have their issues, but just look at how many of them have been made, millions?  I'm not the only one who has learned to work around their issues and make good parts.  If it suits your budget and your goals, it might be right for you.


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## ttabbal (Feb 14, 2020)

The round column mills can do good work. You have to be willing to work around the issues though. They don't sound too bad overall really. I almost got one, someone snapped it up first. I ended up settling for a Bridgeport.


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## MikeWi (Feb 14, 2020)

the PM-25M is in that range.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 14, 2020)

Those RF-31 style mills have been made since the 1980s under dozens of brand names, there are a lot of them out there so you can occasionally find a major bargain on one. It shouldn't be too hard to find one in the $800-1200 range, and I've seen them go for as little as $350. When I was shopping for a larger mill I considered one, but only if I could get it cheap. I had the benefit of already having a small Sherline mill, so I had less urgency than someone with no mill and could be very fussy.

These are larger, more powerful mills than I think many acknowledge. Their biggest drawback, the round column is less about capability and more about being more work and slower to set up a job. Lots of people on the forum have these mills and do good work with them.

I understand they make a pretty good drill press if your budget eventually grows and you get another mill. Buying used you are unlikely to lose money reselling if you buy wisely.


How small of a mill will work for you is another consideration. I see some of the PM-25 sized and smaller Grizzly / HF etc mills on CL in the $1000 and under price range fairly frequently. Used machines can be iffy, but with these mostly hobby class machines wear is much less of an issue than neglect / abuse. It is a lot easier for an inexperienced buyer to pick up on a poorly cared for machine, than a maintained but worn out machine.


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## Dudemanrod (Feb 14, 2020)

I picked a Taiwan RF-30 for 300.00 I tore it down and replaced all the bearings with angular contact bearings. Tightened the lead screw nuts cleaned and painted it. I have heard people call them drill presses but they are heavy and can take heavy cuts. The way I see it there is probably not much I can't do on this. Everyone thinks they are going to be manufacturing tanks or heavy armaments lol. I think a Bridgeport can be faster but if you learn machining and are just a hobby guy like me and are tight on room and money you can get by no problem.


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## Capt45 (Feb 14, 2020)

There's one on *bay right now, but they're asking over $1450 and only local pickup.  I'd love to have it though.


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## shooter123456 (Feb 14, 2020)

If you can stretch the budget to around $1900, I think the PM-25 is an excellent machine.  I am not biased though or anything...


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## mikey (Feb 14, 2020)

Capt45, can I ask what sort of projects you have in mind for this machine? If you have to do bigger stuff then something like a PM 25 might not be practical. On another thread, we were just discussing the amount of working room available on a PM 25 and it amounts to about 10". Fill that with a vise that is 3-4" tall and now you're looking at 6" of working room. Something to think about. 

There are a few other considerations, mostly mass and rigidity. The bigger and more rigid, the better. An RF-30/31 weighs about 800#, heavier than three PM25's put together. Just the head alone is over 200#. I think most folks who pooh pooh these round column mills have never run one or even seen one in the flesh. It is a big machine to be sitting on a bench. It is pretty rigid for its size and is plenty capable for most hobby shops, I think. 

The round column is an issue that is hardly ever a real issue. An RF-31 has a 3" diameter quill with 5" of travel. If you space the head to accommodate the longest tool you will use for your project you do not need to move the head at all. Look at the field and you will not find many with as big a quill or as much quill travel.

An RF machine can be made to run pretty accurately. As @Dudemanrod said, upgrading the spindle and drive sleeve bearings on an older machine can accurize the quill quite nicely. I'm not sure of his run out but mine is just under 0.0001", which is comparable or better than most new mills on the hobby market. Add the weight, mass, quill travel and low cost to that and it is a package that is tough to beat for the price.

Just food for thought.


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## middle.road (Feb 14, 2020)

And the three round columns that have come up around here in local sales in the last (8) months went for under $650.00
Always in a different geographical location aren't they?


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## DavidR8 (Feb 14, 2020)

I had a line on an RF-40 mill but the guy never returned my emails. And he initiated contact with me. Go figure. 

From least expensive to most expensive my “budget” mill choices are:
(Remember these are Canadian dollars and machinery desert prices)

$2K for King KC-20VS (Grizzly G0704 clone)

$2200 for King RF-30

$2600 for PM-25 clone 

$3100 for PM-25MV

Logically the RF-30 makes the most sense. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Capt45 (Feb 14, 2020)

I am not afraid of a round column Mill, I'm just not finding any in my area.  I am limited in travel because my wife has advanced Parkinson Disease and doesn't travel very well. I'm getting back about $1400 on income tax and that will be the bulk of my fund(s).  I'm able to save ~ $100/mo and maybe in the near future I can find a good deal.
As far as the projects I'd like to do: make a couple of carriage stops for my PM lathe; make some tools for my reloading hobby (ammo) such as sizing dies; Gas Check Maker's, ect.  which would require a slitting saw setup. Just small stuff to do as a distraction to being a care giver. Thank you all for your info and suggestions.


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## Nutfarmer (Feb 14, 2020)

Don 't be in a hurry and something will show up at the right price. I found an Acura copy of a Bridgeport in good shape with a dro for two thousand. There are good machines out there if you are careful and patient .


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## epanzella (Feb 14, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> I've been looking for sometime now for a budget mill ($1500~$1800) and I've come to the conclusion that a budget Mill will probably be all I could afford or utilize to maximum benefit.  I know lots of folks, hobbists included tend to stay away from the round column Mills but I've been smitten by the Central Machinery 33686 Mill.  Anybody have this mill and could offer any insights?


Yeah, I have the 33686 and like it. $960 with a coupon at Harbor Freight.  Machine is square with plenty of power and I haven't even gotten around to wiring it for 220V yet. As for as the head losing indexing, I built a simple work around for that and it works just fine. It uses a piece of ground drillrod and a pillow block for indexing. I used a simple collar on the drillrod for a depth stop.


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## Capt45 (Feb 14, 2020)

I see what you did there; very nice work around for getting the Head re-centered.  That's one honkin' vise as well.  Yours a 2 hp motor?


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## mickri (Feb 15, 2020)

I have a RF31 clone.  An Excel 31.  This is my solution if I ever have to move the head to change tooling.




Set the rod against the quill and zero the dial indicator.  Move the head to change your tooling and then bring it back to just touching the rod until the DI is back to zero.  With careful planing you rarely have to move the head to change tooling.  So far I have not had to move the head to change tooling.  I know that day will come.  I paid $500 for my Ecel 31.  Did not come with any tooling except for a Walther 15" rotary table.  A local machine shop snapped up the Walther.  The money I got for the Walther allowed me to buy all the tooling that I wanted and then some.


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## epanzella (Feb 15, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> I see what you did there; very nice work around for getting the Head re-centered.  That's one honkin' vise as well.  Yours a 2 hp motor?


Yes, the motor is 2 hp. I probably should have gotten a 4 or 5 inch vice for this machine. I was flabbergasted  when I saw how big the  6 inch was. I was going to return it for a smaller unit when the price of shipping turned out to be half the cost of the vice so I kept it. Removing the rotary base made it much more manageable and the large capacity has come in handy on numerous occasions. The table on the 33686 is about 29 inches long so now  I just mount the vice off to one side and leave it there. There's plenty of room on the other side for setups, rotary table, ect.


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## Capt45 (Feb 15, 2020)

Mickri; another excellent method to re-center the Head.  That machine is definitely one I'll be on the lookout to buy.
epanzella; all I can seem to find are the 1.5 hp models, but that would be more than I need right now.


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## mikey (Feb 15, 2020)

Take your time, wait for the right deal. Caregivers have a special place in heaven but for now, wait for the right deal. If you do happen on a Rong Fu, most of us can tell you how to rehab it provided it isn't a total loss. Take pics of any potential candidates and post them before spending money on it.


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## epanzella (Feb 15, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> Mickri; another excellent method to re-center the Head.  That machine is definitely one I'll be on the lookout to buy.
> epanzella; all I can seem to find are the 1.5 hp models, but that would be more than I need right now.


I've heard from others that they often advertise these mills with a 1.5 hp motor but they come thru with 2 hp on the motor number plate.  That's what happened with mine.


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## Capt45 (Feb 15, 2020)

Thanks, that's good to know.


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 15, 2020)

Not sure how far you can travel, or if a full size BP copy is too much, but within 200 miles,









						Enco Vertical Milling Machine - tools - by owner - sale
					

Enco Vertical Milling Machine. Variable speed head. X axis power feed works. Dro doesn’t. 3 phase....



					tulsa.craigslist.org


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## Aaron_W (Feb 15, 2020)

I wouldn't worry too much over 1/2 hp, there are plenty of decent mills with only 3/4 and 1hp. Unless you are really pushing its limits I doubt most could even tell the difference between the two. There are also a lot of liberties taken on HP ratings, the 1-1/2hp machines may just be a seller being more honest about the rating.


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## Bill W. (Feb 15, 2020)

Capt45...  If you should end up with a round column mill (I have a HF 33686) there is an excellentn post here on H-M.
Go to the main Forums page.
Go down to Sponsored Forums.
Then to Rong Fu Bandsaws & Machinery.
Then down to Keeping the X on a Round Column Bench Mill.

I have researched a few methods to keeping the X alligned and this seems the simplest so far.  
You do lose the advantage of swinging the head right or left, but in the 3 years I've had mine, I have not needed to...


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## Capt45 (Feb 15, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> Not sure how far you can travel, or if a full size BP copy is too much, but within 200 miles,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've actually looked at that ad before and the "DRO doesn't work; and it's 3 phase" statements are bothersome.  Also the "Quill feed is missing some parts".  All signs for a novice such as myself to avoid, IMO.  
That said, I do like it's mass and it doesn't look in that bad of shape.  Not going to rule it out completely and it's been listed for a couple of weeks now.


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## Capt45 (Feb 15, 2020)

Bill W. said:


> Capt45...  If you should end up with a round column mill (I have a HF 33686) there is an excellentn post here on H-M.
> Go to the main Forums page.
> Go down to Sponsored Forums.
> Then to Rong Fu Bandsaws & Machinery.
> ...



Already read that thread Bill, very good info.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 16, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> I've actually looked at that ad before and the "DRO doesn't work; and it's 3 phase" statements are bothersome.  Also the "Quill feed is missing some parts".  All signs for a novice such as myself to avoid, IMO.
> That said, I do like it's mass and it doesn't look in that bad of shape.  Not going to rule it out completely and it's been listed for a couple of weeks now.



Don't let a 3 phase machine scare you off. There are advantages to 3 phase, one being that scares many potential buyers which can lower the price. VFDs are an added cost, but not a huge one. They can provide variable speed reducing or eliminating the need for changing belts and they are not difficult to install. 

I am not a fan of electrical work and I was able to install as VFD with just a little help. There are a few posters here who really know their way around VFDs who are willing to answer questions.

Broken DRO shouldn't be an issue as long as they aren't trying to get you to pay extra for it. A DRO working on not shouldn't have an impact on the manual operation.  

The quill feed missing parts would be my biggest concern.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 16, 2020)

Looks like a fairly clean machine and the price isn't out of this world . I'm surprised nobody picked this one up yet . I sold my Enco for $2100 over here on the east coast a few years back . It was a very nice mill , great shape , Accurite DRO , power feed but the head was a step pulley unit . It did have a 2 speed motor that was convenient . All in all , not much different from a BP .


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 16, 2020)

I've just reverted to using a static phase converter. I hate the continuous whine and power draw of my 7.5 hp rotary. 









						WNY Supply online store for static & rotary phase converter
					





					phaseconverterusa.com
				




currently on sale for $75.
While the quill feed is an issue, I wouldn't let it deter you. The DRO can be replaced for less than $200.


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## middle.road (Feb 16, 2020)

That looks to me to be a deal. VFD/Static converter installation is easy, heck if I can do it anyone can.
Quill parts won't be hard to find and in regards to the DRO I'll betcha it's the head unit.
That can be replace with a TouchDRO setup.


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## Capt45 (Feb 16, 2020)

Let's see; $1750 for the Mill; $75 for the converter; $200 for the DRO, and ?? for the Quill repair(s). So I'd be up to $2100 plus hiring a shipper.  I'm needed a few months to gather the funds.  I suppose I could try and negotiate the price a little and hire someone to care for my wife while I traveled to pick it up (if it's still available)  AND then rely on good help from members on this site.  
About talked myself into doing it.


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## Capt45 (Feb 16, 2020)

Fella still has the Mill and he said he's firm on the price.  I inquired about the Quill and he sent pics which are Greek to me in respect to what needs/parts are required to make it whole again.


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## derfatdutchman (Feb 16, 2020)

I see broken parts in the photos, that would make me leery of buying without physically going to see the machine.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 16, 2020)

If you have the room a BP is no doubt a better machine so not trying to dismiss the idea. In favor of the smaller mills, an RF31 clone or similar size mill, is a 2 guys and a small pickup truck job. One guy and a pickup or medium SUV would be harder but it can be done. An engine hoist is nice but not required. I had help loading my Clausing 8520, but transport, unloading and setting it up in my basement I did by myself with an engine hoist and a stout cart.

A BP really needs a couple of somewhat experienced people, and a trailer. A forklift at each end is very handy. Getting it into a basement shop would be an adventure.


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## rock_breaker (Feb 16, 2020)

Capt45,  Wish we were closer I have an Enco 105-1117 and an RF 31; one of them should go.  As has been said about round columns they do get the job done.  This site has a group of round column machinists that are second to none and they are willing to help. Good points have been brought up by people that I regard as "experts" and I agree that it is a matter of time to find the right machine. I prefer the 4" vise to the 6" (I have both) simply due to size and weight. The RF 31 table has slightly larger "Tee" nuts than the Enco and I believe the overall weight of the RF 31 is greater but essentially they have the same foot print with respect to space in the shop and tooling requirements. Good luck in finding a mill.
Have a good day
Ray


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 16, 2020)

Bear in mind that neither the quill feed nor dro are essential.


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## Capt45 (Feb 16, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> Bear in mind that neither the quill feed nor dro are essential.


Yessir, I understand that point.  However, I'd still like to know what needs to be fixed/replaced.  Can you tell from the pics whats missing or broken?


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## DavidR8 (Feb 16, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> If you have the room a BP is no doubt a better machine so not trying to dismiss the idea. In favor of the smaller mills, an RF31 clone or similar size mill, is a 2 guys and a small pickup truck job. One guy and a pickup or medium SUV would be harder but it can be done. An engine hoist is nice but not required. I had help loading my Clausing 8520, but transport, unloading and setting it up in my basement I did by myself with an engine hoist and a stout cart.
> 
> A BP really needs a couple of somewhat experienced people, and a trailer. A forklift at each end is very handy. Getting it into a basement shop would be an adventure.



Or one guy and a small pickup truck. 
I just dismantled it into smaller pieces I could manage. 
Not easy but doable. 







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 17, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> Yessir, I understand that point.  However, I'd still like to know what needs to be fixed/replaced.  Can you tell from the pics whats missing or broken?



Looks like the lever is missing and the actuating plunger is damaged.  These pictures are from my Kent, which is also a BP clone. I'm starting to think that you may not need parts specifically for an Enco. How that particular plunger could have been damaged is an interesting question.


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## Dhal22 (Feb 17, 2020)

That Tulsa ad has been around for a while.  I saw it last year.


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## Capt45 (Feb 18, 2020)

Yeah and he still has it.  Makes me wonder.....


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## jmarkwolf (Feb 20, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> I've been looking for sometime now for a budget mill ($1500~$1800) and I've come to the conclusion that a budget Mill will probably be all I could afford or utilize to maximum benefit.  I know lots of folks, hobbists included tend to stay away from the round column Mills but I've been smitten by the Central Machinery 33686 Mill.  Anybody have this mill and could offer any insights?



I had one of those for 15 years and loved it. I used it for 15 Years and then sold it for what I paid when I decided to get a used Bridgeport. You won't need to keep it forever and it will be an education while you have it. It does have the issue of losing registration if you raise the head, but there are work-arounds, and it's really not a big deal. It has an R8 spindle so any tooling you buy will work on a Bridgeport (or clone) if you were ever to upgrade later.

Tramming the head can only be accomplished with shimming but that's not a big deal either. I put a nice DRO Pro's on it. Don't go any bigger than a 5in vise (4in is probably better). The table has good travel (better than 19in on the x-axis). I used it on 115V but it has a 220V option.

If you can get it with a 20% coupon you can spend the savings on tooling. Look up "RF30" and "RF31" on Google and Youtube.

It's big and heavy, about 750lbs if I remember correctly so you'll need help moving it in but well within the capacity of the typical engine hoist. I made a table from 4x4 and plywood. I can send pictures later if you'd like.


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## jmarkwolf (Feb 20, 2020)

Deleted duplicate by author.


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## Capt45 (Feb 20, 2020)

I'd love to get a RF30 or 31, but USED in this area are around $2000.  I'm not in as much a hurry to get the mill now that I switched back to my Power Matic 3520 to turn Duck Calls.


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## pontiac428 (Feb 20, 2020)

I'm confused (again)... If Harbor Freight sells it for $1200 before the 20% coupon, how are people selling them used for $2000?  I don't think the HF ones are made in Taiwan by Rong Fu actual anymore, but still.


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## jmarkwolf (Feb 20, 2020)

Some vendors sell these mill/drills for $2500 (Production Tool, Jet, etc)


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## DavidR8 (Feb 20, 2020)

My local tool dealer has a RF clone for $2300. I’ve seen some and the quality is pretty good. 
Not as good as the 80’s vintage Taiwanese Long Chang LC-30A that I managed to find but still decent. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Capt45 (Feb 20, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> I'm confused (again)... If Harbor Freight sells it for $1200 before the 20% coupon, how are people selling them used for $2000?  I don't think the HF ones are made in Taiwan by Rong Fu actual anymore, but still.


Re-read the comment about the RF30~31.  IT"S the mill selling for $2000 used, not the HF one.


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## epanzella (Feb 20, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> Re-read the comment about the RF30~31.  IT"S the mill selling for $2000 used, not the HF one.


I have the HF 33686. It looks identical to the RF30 to me. What's the difference between the two machines?


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## jmarkwolf (Feb 21, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> I'd love to get a RF30 or 31, but USED in this area are around $2000.  I'm not in as much a hurry to get the mill now that I switched back to my Power Matic 3520 to turn Duck Calls.



There was an RF30 on the local craigslist recently with the factory oil pan and stand for $500. Looked very good from the pics. I was gonna go look at it but was afraid I'd buy it, and I don't need another mill!


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## Capt45 (Feb 21, 2020)

Sardonic; I like it!!


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