# Lathe Turret Tool Posts vs. QCTP



## Headrc (Dec 16, 2018)

I certainly see advantages in QCTP's and have been thinking heavily about a Multifix type for my Logan 12" Lathe.  But .....since I see shop built as well as used Turret type tool posts for a lot cheaper ..... I have to ask ...for the Hobby Machinist that may not be using his lathe everyday and may not be doing a lot of repetitive work ....would a Turret Type tool post answer the need to switch between different types of tools while working on a project?    It could mean more $$ for other wants and needs.  It looks used turret type can be bought for less than $100 ....and if you build one it is even cheaper.  Any thoughts are appreciated from this great site.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 16, 2018)

you can certainly use a turret post for the rest of your life, it will perform as intended and you may be happy with it.
QC toolholders are really nice to switch between many tools

for example you are going to make a simple bushing
you will need a tool to cut the od
you will need a tool to bore the id
you will need a tool to chamfer the ends
you will need a tool to part the bushing off
if you can attach these tools to the turret toolpost, you are in great shape, and you won't need anything else

but,

if you need more intricate turnings, obviously you will need to switch out more tools.
that's where the advantage of QC toolholders is.

another problem with turret posts is the height of the tool is not adjustable without shims or grinding the tool to the correct center height
this could prove disastrous if you can't get the tool close to center.
if you can't get the tool on center, your work will suffer the consequences
the QC toolholders are fully adjustable for height,
so using small HSS blanks , insert, or cemented carbide tools of different sizes, is very quick and easy.
not so much with the turret post

given the price of around $125, there are many import QC toolholders on the market
i got them on 3 lathes (one wedge type, 2 piston type)
i interchange the toolholders between lathes when necessary

here is a starter set (import, like i have)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AXA-Piston...667166?hash=item3f699a6a9e:g:1PIAAOSwwbdWOImw

you'll pay almost as much for a turret holder,
but i think you may be at a disadvantage with the turret.

one other advantage of the QC AXA toolholders, you can get a holder that will take up to 5/8" tooling 

good luck which ever you decide!


----------



## Headrc (Dec 16, 2018)

Thanks ...that certainly is cheap alternative ...although on this type of post I have read all kinds of advise but about not going with a piston type.  Do you ...or anybody see an advantage to having both the turret and QTCP?  I cannot imagine why ...but if there was I might pursue to turret first ...maybe even just fab one to improve my machining skills.  But if not then time is money ....


----------



## Headrc (Dec 16, 2018)

Here is very cheap Multisize Size A toolpost ....   https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ABWTI72?ref_=pe_623860_70668690_dpLink&th=1

I wonder if anyone here has tried this one??


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 16, 2018)

Headrc said:


> Thanks ...that certainly is cheap alternative ...although on this type of post I have read all kinds of advise but about not going with a piston type.  Do you ...or anybody see an advantage to having both the turret and QTCP?  I cannot imagine why ...but if there was I might pursue to turret first ...maybe even just fab one to improve my machining skills.  But if not then time is money ....


i had the same questions awhile ago,
 i replaced my turret post with a QC AXA and sold the turret to buy more AXA holders!
the piston type is just fine
i have pushed the piston type and the wedge type hard. 
i have not noticed the difference in either one to be honest
i'd buy the AXA post type set and never look back!


----------



## Bob Korves (Dec 16, 2018)

Both the piston and the wedge types work fine.  The wedge type is touted as repeating better, but I am not so sure that is true or that it matters much for the vast majority of jobs.  I would not pay significant extra money to have the wedge type, which is said to be better.  Mine is the wedge type, a Phase II.  As for quality, all the imports seem to have both their good and bad ones.  The really good ones are the Aloris brand ones, but $$$ and not so much better performance given the price difference.


----------



## Bob Korves (Dec 16, 2018)

The turret type posts (also called 4-way) are very good for production work, where you keep making a lot of the same parts.  They are quite rigid.  However, they are much slower to set up for a new operation.  I still have the 4 way tool post that came with my lathe, kept it in case I do a production job, but after a bunch of years have not put it back on once.


----------



## westerner (Dec 16, 2018)

Bob Korves said:


> I still have the 4 way tool post that came with my lathe





Bob Korves said:


> after a bunch of years have not put it back on once.



Agreed. What little time I have spent on my two lathes, the QCTP seems the only way to go. The 4 way on the lathe at work is constantly being fiddled with. No such thing as a "production" job, and the right tool is NEVER in the toolpost.


----------



## Headrc (Dec 17, 2018)

Thanks guys.  Yet another question ...what do you think is the right number of holders for a hobby machinist ....meaning they all get used and maybe once in a while you are thinking you might just one more.  I have seen guys say they have 30 tool holders.  I am also a guitar player ...and well I have more guitars then I ever play!  Trying not to go that same way here with this new adventure.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 17, 2018)

i would consider "the set" QC toolpost and the 5 basic holders it comes with + 2 oversize 5/8" toolholders
with that set up you could do a majority of things, without overdoing it


----------



## tcarrington (Dec 17, 2018)

I concur with the QCTP. It will save you lots of grief in setting tool height. I thought I would be happy with the "set". But I soon was regularly using Left and right insert tooling, threading tool, chamfer, HSS radius, boring bar and sometimes a smaller tool optimized for surface finish on my sower lathe on aluminum. That doesn't include the parting tool which alone is worth the change to QCTP - easier to align for chatter-free parting.


----------



## Headrc (Dec 17, 2018)

Thanks ....actually I am pursuing a Multifix setup, although this information is still relevant.  That Multifix toolpost that I highlighted in my previous post was to good to pass up ...it was the last one for that price, so I bought it.  For $65 for this type of tool post just seemed too good to be true ...and it may be.  If I don't like it ...it goes back under the Amazon policy.  They now have it priced for over $350!  I should have it by Weds.  

 Now I have to decide on holders and get those.  And the holders for the Multifix start at 5/8 and go up the 3/4 ...actually that is 16MM and 20MM.  Smaller is actually not an option for the Multifix size A for my lathe.   Holders from Create tool are about $35 each not including shipping.   I want to get a quote from them plus shipping.  Then once I see the toolpost and feel confident that it is not junk I will compete the order for the tool holders.   
I have a lot of 3/8's tooling and some larger up to 3/4" and even some boring bars larger than that.  I want to have an inverted parting tool and run the lathe in reverse for parting.  So looking at Tcarr's answer ....maybe 8 holders of different varieties for the different needs?


----------



## Bob Korves (Dec 17, 2018)

It is fairly quick to change tools in and out of the holders for a QCTP.  2 or 3 hold down screws,  then quickly set the tool height, it can be done in a couple minutes after some practice.  Just have enough holders for the go to tools you use all the time, and a few extras for the job at hand.  I have 13 holders for my QCTP, and it is really overkill for a home shop that does not try to make flat rate.  Things take as long as they take...


----------



## astjp2 (Dec 18, 2018)

Headrc said:


> Thanks guys.  Yet another question ...what do you think is the right number of holders for a hobby machinist ....meaning they all get used and maybe once in a while you are thinking you might just one more.  I have seen guys say they have 30 tool holders.  I am also a guitar player ...and well I have more guitars then I ever play!  Trying not to go that same way here with this new adventure.


One for every tool you have.  I have a DTM QCTP on the Rockwell lathe and a Dorian on the Jet.  I am still fitting the Dorian with a new Tnut to the lathe.  I have 10 tool holders so far, I will probably get 10 more as I add different tools, expecially for threading and boring.  Tim


----------



## SamI (Dec 18, 2018)

astjp2 said:


> One for every tool you have.  I have a DTM QCTP on the Rockwell lathe and a Dorian on the Jet.  I am still fitting the Dorian with a new Tnut to the lathe.  I have 10 tool holders so far, I will probably get 10 more as I add different tools, expecially for threading and boring.  Tim



That's probably a bit overkill to start out.  While I agree you can never have enough tool holders I started out with just 4.  For the stuff I make regularly I can get away with outside turning / facing tool, boring bar, parting tool and a form tool.  If I'm doing a job that requires different tools I just switch out the tools for the job.

After a while I bought a couple more for a larger parting tool and a 45 degree cutting tool for doing external chamfers.  I've now just ordered an additional 5 for threading tools and a larger boring bar.  I guess the point I am trying to make is that, if your budget is limited just buy a hand full now and invest in other tooling.  Then when the time comes buy a few more here and a few more there - or even make your own if time and tooling permits.  I'd imagine that most people with 15+ tool holders built them up over a number of years.


----------



## Headrc (Dec 18, 2018)

Thanks again ....just the kind of information I am looking for.


----------



## Liljoebrshooter (Dec 18, 2018)

And each time I order something from the place I get the holders from,  I just add a couple to the order.


----------



## pacifica (Dec 18, 2018)

Headrc said:


> Thanks again ....just the kind of information I am looking for.


Also knurling tools and Ball makers can be attached to tool holder. If using insert tooling different inserts(like for al or stainless or carbon steel) can be changed with a single screw. A qctp is very versatile.


----------



## westerner (Dec 18, 2018)

Liljoebrshooter said:


> And each time I order something from the place I get the holders from, I just add a couple to the order.


I'll just add a couple of......, and maybe one of......"I forget,  what was that minimum order amount for free shipping?"  And the infection takes hold


----------



## Dabbler (Dec 18, 2018)

OK guys, I have to be an outlier here.

First I have QCTP, 4-way and Armstrong (rocker) tool posts for my lathe.  I use them all, but for different purposes.

The most used toolpost on my lathe is the 4 way, and this is why:

First I NEVER shim a tool in the toolpost.  All the tools for it are carbide insert types.  Each is milled and/or ground to exactly .606 in height which always centers my tool.  I have all the insert holders, so they can be installed in no time at all. (right cut, left cut, parting, boring)

I also have qctp tools in duplicate, as in cutting in brass or aluminum, it is slightly better to adjust the height +/- to reduce chatter.  I do more of my parting on my QCTP than ever  before, but everything chatters on my smaller lathe.  I hope the new one is more rigid.

For cutting wood, nothing is better than an Armstrong with a HSS cutter it it.  For tricky cutting around corners and trepanning, I also use the Armstrong.


----------



## kd4gij (Dec 18, 2018)

I use both. Shimming tools is really no big deal once you do it a couple of times. The 4 way is quicker to change the feed angle of tools


----------



## Bob Korves (Dec 18, 2018)

Dabbler said:


> OK guys, I have to be an outlier here.
> 
> First I have QCTP, 4-way and Armstrong (rocker) tool posts for my lathe.  I use them all, but for different purposes.
> 
> ...


Your method make sense, Dabbler.  As I said above, I saved my 4 way in case I every have production work, but as a hobbyist I never do.  It stays in the dark.  I have been looking for an inexpensive lantern tool post and holders for years, never see a decent one with all the pieces of the correct size at the right price or I would snap it up.  They are good at times for tight places and for "impossible" cuts.  I have the QCTP off at the moment for grinding the center from a live center with my Dumore 44-011 tool post grinder.  I use it every few months, and it is useful, but it sure takes time to get it set up, get me back up to speed, mount and dress the wheel, and then do the work in a few minutes, and start tearing it down, cleaning the lathe just to make sure (I protect it well while grinding), and putting it all away properly.  A three minute grind can take most of the day sometimes.


----------



## Dabbler (Dec 18, 2018)

I would love to have a TPG, but the cheapest used ones up here go for $1200 to $2000 - new ones are only 30% more.


----------



## WCraig (Dec 18, 2018)

Headrc said:


> Thanks again ....just the kind of information I am looking for.


Do standard toolholders for QCTP's go on sale...say during Boxing Week?

I'd like to pick up a few more at a decent price.

Craig


----------



## Bob Korves (Dec 19, 2018)

Dabbler said:


> I would love to have a TPG, but the cheapest used ones up here go for $1200 to $2000 - new ones are only 30% more.


You have to be in the right place at the right time, like all used tool purchases.  I bought my Millrite mill in unused new condition, my Dumore 44-011 TP grinder set in slightly used condition, complete in the box and with additional wheels, a new set of 7 tapered lathe mandrels, and a few more things, all for $1600 US, including delivery of the Millrite to my shop.  Full disclosure, it was from a friend, a GOOD friend...

I do not think TP grinders are worth the kind of money you stated.  Hold out and do without.


----------



## Headrc (Dec 19, 2018)

Got the Mutlifix clone tool post today ....still thinking on this.  Another question has surfaced ...what is the largest size tool that the Chinese AXA Aloris clone tool holders accommodate?


----------



## Dabbler (Dec 20, 2018)

5/8 in the XL variety


----------



## Jubil (Dec 20, 2018)

Bob Korves said:


> It is fairly quick to change tools in and out of the holders for a QCTP.  2 or 3 hold down screws,  then quickly set the tool height, it can be done in a couple minutes after some practice.  Just have enough holders for the go to tools you use all the time, and a few extras for the job at hand.  I have 13 holders for my QCTP, and it is really overkill for a home shop that does not try to make flat rate.  Things take as long as they take...



I agree. Setting tool height is very quick, especially if you have some sort of gauge to set with.


----------



## Jubil (Dec 20, 2018)

Dabbler said:


> I would love to have a TPG, but the cheapest used ones up here go for $1200 to $2000 - new ones are only 30% more.



From what I read in your posts, you already have the know how, so why not build one? 
I have never even seen a toolpost grinder in person, only pics on CL. But from the looks it shouldn't be extremely hard to do. 
I cobbled one together from some stuff I had around the shop. No, it's not as accurate as a store bought one and I intend to improve on it in time but it was totally FREE. (I love that word)


----------



## Dabbler (Dec 20, 2018)

I guess I could - it could be #xxxx on my to-do list...  I could get around to it in about 20 or so years!

Seriously, I would like a Dunmore or eqivalent, as they are very high quality and make a nice finish.


----------



## Bob Korves (Dec 20, 2018)

I have my Dumore set up on my lathe right now.  I set it up yesterday to grind the point off of a lathe live center.  Took hours to set it up, as always.  It is ready to go, just need to wait for a friend to come over with a collet that will fit the 15mm shank of the center.


----------



## westerner (Dec 20, 2018)

Jubil said:


> Setting tool height is very quick, especially if you have some sort of gauge to set with.


I know I have stated this before, in one discussion or another, sorry to repeat. Joe Pie on YouTube has a GREAT method of setting tools to the correct height. He builds a post/tool/gauge that sits on the ways, and gives you a tactile, feel sort of measure that takes your eyeball out of the mix. If built with care, this tool and your setting will be within one or two thou. Easy to build, easy to use, and foolproof. It sure did make a difference in my ability to wring performance from my floppy old Atlas/Craftsman. Built one very first thing when I upgraded to the Birmingham I currently have. I simply cannot overstate how helpful this has been for me, with possibly *the* most critical aspects of lathe setup.


----------



## Dabbler (Dec 21, 2018)

I built one of [Joe Pie's height gauge] years ago, and I have to say it is very easy to get within .001 of center without any worry or fuss.


----------



## astjp2 (Dec 21, 2018)

Durmore TPG's on ebay can be had for $200 for a small one if you are patient.


----------



## Dabbler (Dec 21, 2018)

There's an "United States Electrical Tool Co" fro what looks like the 1920s or 1930s on ebay.  Might be risky if the bearings are pooched. (bearings weren't standardized until after WW2, as far as I've been told)


----------



## MarkM (Dec 21, 2018)

I currently use a four way.  Once I have set my tools set   I keep the shims and tool with an elastic if removed from the post. I ll set my tools up in the four way before a job is done and simply index to the tool needed. Super fast.  I don t need a special chamfer tool and just change the toolpost setting for chamfering and facing for example.  This works for me but I will be purchasing A Dorian Qctp at some point.  There is too much ahead of it in importance at the moment to shell out that kind of money now.  I don t want an import and feel it will improve my ability to use my lathe to its full capacity.  A 5hp. 14-40 lathe.  And yes I do think it will save time on occasion when i need to use a tool that won t fit in at the same time as the other tools say a long boring bar for example.  I Think the  Qctp is a valuable pc. It s a luxury at the moment for me.


----------



## Jubil (Dec 21, 2018)

Dabbler said:


> I guess I could - it could be #xxxx on my to-do list...  I could get around to it in about 20 or so years!
> 
> Seriously, I would like a Dunmore or eqivalent, as they are very high quality and make a nice finish.



I totally understand the "to do list", and the desire for high quality tools. 
I have looked at them on CL and drooled too many times.


----------



## Bob Korves (Dec 21, 2018)

Tool post grinders can be called upon to turn grinding wheels from less than 1/8" diameter to more than 4" diameter.  It takes a wide spindle speed range to do that, and a spindle capable of very high and much lower speeds.  Most home built, and many commercial built tool post grinders do not really have the capability to properly do a wide range of work.  My Dumore 44-020 has the capability to turn wheels from 1/8" to 3", and has spindle speeds from 6,600 to 38,500 rpm, and weighs 35 pounds, but is still somewhat short on having good rigidity for heavier work.  Some of that comes from the setup on the lathe tool post, and some from the fact that the whole concept of a tool post grinder attachment does not really make for a rigid setup.  It is definitely nowhere ckose to being equal to a cylindrical grinder.  It is, however, useful.


----------



## Dabbler (Dec 21, 2018)

My prob is that even if I got a cylindrical grinder free, there's just no room for it in my shop.  I have a few projects that need an ID grind coming up, and a TPG would be adequate for them...


----------



## Jubil (Dec 21, 2018)

Bob Korves said:


> Tool post grinders can be called upon to turn grinding wheels from less than 1/8" diameter to more than 4" diameter.  It takes a wide spindle speed range to do that, and a spindle capable of very high and much lower speeds.  Most home built, and many commercial built tool post grinders do not really have the capability to properly do a wide range of work.  My Dumore 44-020 has the capability to turn wheels from 1/8" to 3", and has spindle speeds from 6,600 to 38,500 rpm, and weighs 35 pounds, but is still somewhat short on having good rigidity for heavier work.  Some of that comes from the setup on the lathe tool post, and some from the fact that the whole concept of a tool post grinder attachment does not really make for a rigid setup.  It is definitely nowhere ckose to being equal to a cylindrical grinder.  It is, however, useful.



I hope we haven't hijacked this thread, but I am enjoying the discussion because I'm learning. My experience is ultra limited. 
My cobbled grinder has a 2 hp treadmill motor and the spindle is a jackshaft from a go-cart, (kids toys not even safe around here). It mounts in place on cross slide where qctp normally resides. When not on the lathe, it does double duty on a pedestal with a wire wheel on it.  I plan to build a new shaft with some more precision bearings and an adapter or taper set up for interchanging grinding wheels. It will never be a Dumore but it's a fun project.


----------

