# PM1440GT Is in the shop!



## LVLAaron (Jan 27, 2022)

It took 4 months longer to get here than it should have. I followed the Ship that was supposed to land on the west coast get re-routed to the east coast and sit in the water for ages. Anyway, she's finally here. 

The palleting (is that a word?) Definitely needs to be re-worked from the factory. If you're on the skinny side, you can only get half way under it with the forks, which makes it tippy. If you're on the wide side, you can only get forks under it towards the center, so it's super tippy. 

The Freight driver was super helpful and interested in what I had going on and offered to help guide me in, he didn't have to do that... thanks dude, much appreciated. 


This is a 3 phase model I'll be doing a VFD conversion on. I am pretty sure I have all of the parts and widgets needed, as well as a local friend with the same setup... I'll do my best to keep this thread updated with progress.


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## sr71xjet (Jan 27, 2022)

Congrats.  I ordered mine on the 13th.  Going to be a long wait.


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## Just for fun (Jan 27, 2022)

Congrats on the new lathe!


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## B2 (Jan 27, 2022)

Congratulations!  

If you did not see my posting, I finished the write up on my PM1440GT VFD conversion last year.  I took a more modern electronics approach to the design and so EVERYTHING fit in the back of the stand where the original electronics were located with room to spare.  You can see a photos as well as documentation, Part 2, at this link. I think this design incorporates all of the features and safety ever discussed on HM plus some extra ones. If  you are planning to follow the common path found on HM, which mostly uses the original bulky electronics, but which will not fit in the lathe stand easily then you may still want to look at my Part 1 description and drawings of how the factory relays etc. are wired up.  


B2 said:


> VFD conversion using solid state electronic components.


If you are interested in my approach I would be happy to help by answering any questions.

PS.  I also put mine on steel casters so that I could move it around if ever needed.  After it is where I want it the bolts screw down for leveling and raising it off of the casters.  They work nice, but the mounts could have been built easier than the approach I took. However, I did not have it in my possession when I designed and built the casters.  

PPS.  Currently, I am working on an Excel spread sheet which will automatically generate ALL possible TPI and FEED rates of the lever, knob and external gear settings and put them into a table. I was going to do this by hand, but it turns out to be a lot of them.  I figure about .  If one includes all of the external gears that comes with the lathe and the possibility to do threading using the Apron Feed lever rather than just the split nut TPI lever there appears to be over 6000 of them with some redundancy.  Hence, there should be no thread that you should not be able to approximate, English or Metric.      You should check and see if you got all of the gears as well as all of the other accessories (see the manual for the list).   I will post it when I am finished with it.  

Dave L.


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## jwmay (Jan 28, 2022)

They're so pretty when they're new!   Enjoy it! I'm sure you'll be unintentionally making me feel inferior in no time with that beauty. Lol


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## LVLAaron (Jan 28, 2022)

edit; removed


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## B2 (Jan 28, 2022)

@LVLAaron

Sorry if my message was not complete.  Since you edited/removed your post maybe you found the Quote link that I provided to the VFD conversion in my first post.   In case you did not, you can find it  *HERE* .  The Part 1 and Part 2 that I referred to are attachments there.

If you look in the photos inside the Part 1 attachment you will see a photo of the lathe on the Casters.  However, I never wrote up my caster build.  If you are interested in the caster build I can provide details, even some detailed drawings, but if I were to make them over I would make them more simply and would probably weld up the parts and not do so much machining of parts.  I would then bold them to the sides of the lathe stands rather than attaching them to the bottom via new plates.   I did take a number of pictures and will attach a few of those pictures here.  I did not have a good idea of how strong the stands were so I designed the casters to be attached to a plate which bolted under the lathe through the original leveling feet holes, which by the way has a screwball Old English thread to it.  (So, I used these feet bolts to attach the plate to the stand bottoms and made new leveling feet holes in this plate.)  I so I was concerned that the lathe attachment to the lathe stands might not be strong so I attached the caster mounts together by a couple of pieces of angle iron running from end to end. These are not really needed, but make is stronger.  The front one is a bit in the way of the foot brake but can be removed via a few bolts. After the VFD install I find I never use the foot brake anyway.   This all makes the caster built more complicated than necessary.  I could have done it more simply if I had the lathe and a way to easily lift it.  Hence, I never posted the build.

I live in Pittsburgh, PA so I went to the PM shop and assembled and mounted the casters onto the lathe there.  Hence, when they delivered the machine to me it was already on the casters.  We put it in my basement and just rolled it through a small crooked hallway into a small room which I use for metal machining for its final install location.    Tony and all (PM) were very helpful.  We even made a short video of Tony pushing the lathe around.  It is very strong and does not wiggle on the stands at all when rolled around.  I was going to post the video, but felt it should be edited to remove the sounds first.  I needed some video editing software I did not have so it never happened. By the way, I did not know at the time, but later Matt (PM) told me that I could have simply loosened the bolts holding the lathe to the stands to move them around a bit.  The stands were not exactly square to the lathe!

As far as the Excel TPI spread sheet I have yet to finish it, but I will post it to HM when I do.  It is being written in sort of a general format so that it could be used to generate TPI tables for other lathes as well.

Hope this helps to explain things better.

Dave L.


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## ConValSam (Jan 28, 2022)

Congrats!

After you complete the conversion, what will you make first?


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## LVLAaron (Jan 28, 2022)

Got this to chamber rifle barrels. So probably several really poor rifle barrels.


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## mksj (Jan 28, 2022)

A gear chart was done previously for the 1440GT in a previous thread, it has pull downs for the different gear combinations.


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## B2 (Jan 28, 2022)

Hi Mark,

Yes, I am aware of @jbolt threading chart.  We have been in contact and have been discussing what I am doing.  I also wanted to see how many other threads and feeds that one could get.  Anyway, hopefully when I am done one could use the spread sheet for many lathe models.  You just select the gear ratios that you have or that you want to get data on and then it will generate an entire table listing the lever, knob, external gears that are used. It took me a while to figure out the internal 1440GT gears as the manuals drawing has errors and makes no sense to me.   While I was doing it I also calculate all of the TPI values you could get if using the apron feed lever rather than the threading 1/2 nut.   It also includes these in metric. as well as English values.  I will attach an untested preliminary table print out of all of these, where I selected the external gears to be 60 and 30.    Using your proximity sensor threading technique one does not need, and cannot always use, the phase monitor so the feed rod should work, but probably not as accurate as using the lead screw.  The lead screw turns anytime the lathe is not in the "I" gear.    Anyway, just using the normal levers and knobs there are 64 = 4*4*4 possible positions, but adding the apron feed will double this and yield some threading values which are not normally calculated.  When lever position "I" is employed only the feed rod turns as the lead screw is not engaged.  

My older SouthBend 10 does not have a feed rod. It only has a lead screw for doing both threading and feeding. I suppose having a feed rod saves some wear on the lead screw and especially on the 1/2 nut, but otherwise I do not see the reason to separate the two functions.

Let me know if you agree, or not, with the numbers.  

Dave L.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 28, 2022)

Got some of the easy stuff taken care of. Still a little anxious about working the lathe controls in... I'll get there.


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## B2 (Jan 29, 2022)

Don't get discouraged. 

I am not for sure the large relays that come with the lathe will fit in there, but if you purchase small solid state relays, especially if they are DIN Rail ready they would probably fit. The only relay that needs to carry an current is the one to the coolant pumb if you have one.  That pump is 220V and needs about 0.4 amp so a 0.5amp or larger current rating on the relay contacts should do.   Search the Amazon Seller "Electronics-Salon"  DC 24V slim Din Rail mount or other formats.  They sell both solid state and small inductive relays mounted on circuit boards.  You can probably even fined listings for multiple relays all on one mount in a small package.  By the way Electronics-Salon has a lot more variations and other products on Aliexpress.com, but shipping time is usually drag.  Think 4-6 weeks.  Try this link   *Electronics Salon*    then search on relays. 

My transistor circuits would definitely fit.  However, most importantly you should think through your wiring and cables.  I found that routing and connecting the cables are bigger problems and, if you are not careful, they make the whole thing messy and confusing and so prone to wiring errors.  Colored coded wires help a lot.  I listed the shielded cables I used in my build write up, Part 2.   I purchased and used two 8 lines plus ground and shield.  20AWG.   See if this amazon link works:   *HERE*


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## LVLAaron (Jan 29, 2022)

I got new relays from automation direct... Honestly forget how many or what kind it was so long ago. Not sure if I'm going to use the factory contactors or swap them out.


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## xr650rRider (Jan 29, 2022)

Factory contactors are working fine on my PM-1340GT.  They've never had high voltage ran thru them, so using for control voltage works fine.


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## xr650rRider (Jan 29, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> Got this to chamber rifle barrels. So probably several really poor rifle barrels.



Buy yourself a least a dozen pieces of 12"x1.25" OD 12L14 on Ebay.  Watch Joe Pieczynski videos on threading away from the chuck.  Get left hand threading tools and run them upside down (with a spacer) for external threads and run left hand tool on backside of material for internal threads.  I have yet to have a need to thread toward the chuck.  Saves a lot of headaches.  Then you can focus on threading with out worrying about crashing.  No proximity sensor needed.  By the time you've bored, cut tenons, cones, counter bores, threaded, cut-off and started over on 50 practice pieces, you might be ready for try on 1st rifle barrel.  Lot cheaper to practice first.  I also had a dozen older barrels that I cut the tenons off and did all the operations above plus indicating in to <.0002" and then chambering.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 29, 2022)

xr650rRider said:


> Buy yourself a least a dozen pieces of 12"x1.25" OD 12L14 on Ebay.  Watch Joe Pieczynski videos on threading away from the chuck.  Get left hand threading tools and run them upside down (with a spacer) for external threads and run left hand tool on backside of material for internal threads.  I have yet to have a need to thread toward the chuck.  Saves a lot of headaches.  Then you can focus on threading with out worrying about crashing.  No proximity sensor needed.  By the time you've bored, cut tenons, cones, counter bores, threaded, cut-off and started over on 50 practice pieces, you might be ready for try on 1st rifle barrel.  Lot cheaper to practice first.  I also had a dozen older barrels that I cut the tenons off and did all the operations above plus indicating in to <.0002" and then chambering.



Yep - I have a lifetime supply of 1.25 barrels that are no longer in service. Plenty of practice material on hand already.


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## B2 (Jan 29, 2022)

Hi @xr650rRider ,

The factory contactors/relays should work fine if he has space for them in his box.  From the photo it looked like there was not much room left and that was the issue.... not if they would work.  He does not need the breaker that comes with the contactors for the 3 phase motor as these will just be the low current VFD signals , but should use some sort of breaker or fuse for the pump motor power.  I am not for sure how it mounts if he is not using the original pump motor contactor.  I just threw in a fuse for my solid state conversion and a huge solid state relay, that I had laying around, for my pump motor.  

Even if you are not going to use it for threading the proximity stop is a nice lathe feature to have.  The biggest issue with the Proximity stop seems not to be with the stop itself, but with the time it takes to brake the motor to a stop.  Until the motor actually stops turning the apron keeps moving. So if you want to work real close to the chuck you have to figure that in and trip the stop at an appropriate distance prior to the chuck.  However, even if you are feeding by hand having the proximity stop can be a safety feature to prevent mistakes.  Of course you cannot be lazy about setup.  I suppose the mechanical clutch might also work, but I have never really put it to the test.    Likewise, the proximity stop will not work well if the motor belts are worn or are loose so that they slip during the braking ....  There seems to always be something that can fail....  

Dave L.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 29, 2022)

I'm planning on using the factory contactors in their factory location _for now. _

Once I get a more full understanding of how everything is tied together I'll work to move my aftermarket relays into my external cabinet.


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## xr650rRider (Jan 29, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> I'm planning on using the factory contactors in their factory location _for now. _
> 
> Once I get a more full understanding of how everything is tied together I'll work to move my aftermarket relays into my external cabinet.


That's exactly what I said.  I bought all the relays.  I have the proximity sensor as well.  When you get it wired, moved in to place and it works well.......you'll still have them in the boxes a couple years later.  

I did run a 4 wire service to my lathe.  That way I have 120 volt at the machine and put 1 dual receptacle on 1 side of panel that I can plug in DRO display and light.  They come on when I close the disconnect.  The other side I mounted a dual receptacle that is wired to a solid state relay controlled by coolant switch.  I can plug in my thru barrel coolant flush system or regular coolant pump and control them with front panel mounted switch.


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## B2 (Jan 29, 2022)

xr650rRider said:


> I did run a 4 wire service to my lathe.


We were thinking a like.  I ran the 4 wire connection directly from the wall breaker box to a wall knife switch box and then  straight on to the lathe stand back enclosure, where I put all of my entire VFD build including the braking resistor.  Both the Coolant power (220V) and the DRO (110V)  then come directly from the lathe stand enclosure.  No external enclosure nor external connections except between this enclosure, the front panel and of course the motors and sensors.  



LVLAaron said:


> in their factory location _for now._


Two locations......Take care to carefully shield all of those control wires running between the two cabinets and keep them neat.   This is where the interference and noise can kick in if you are not careful.  In general, in electrical engineering best practices, the shorter the wires... the better for interference and noise immunity.  Also, try not to run high current carrying wires parallel or in close proximity to the low current signal wires.  

Dave L.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 29, 2022)

B2 said:


> We were thinking a like.  I ran the 4 wire connection directly from the wall breaker box to a wall knife switch box and then  straight on to the lathe stand back enclosure, where I put all of my entire VFD build including the braking resistor.  Both the Coolant power (220V) and the DRO (110V)  then come directly from the lathe stand enclosure.  No external enclosure nor external connections except between this enclosure, the front panel and of course the motors and sensors.
> 
> 
> Two locations......Take care to carefully shield all of those control wires running between the two cabinets and keep them neat.   This is where the interference and noise can kick in if you are not careful.  In general, in electrical engineering best practices, the shorter the wires... the better for interference and noise immunity.  Also, try not to run high current carrying wires parallel or in close proximity to the low current signal wires.
> ...



I have an assortment of shielded wire from automation direct for the control stuff. Is there any kind of foil/wrap/tape I could/should use on the line voltage stuff?


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## Dlloyd (Jan 29, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> It took 4 months longer to get here than it should have. I followed the Ship that was supposed to land on the west coast get re-routed to the east coast and sit in the water for ages. Anyway, she's finally here.
> 
> The palleting (is that a word?) Definitely needs to be re-worked from the factory. If you're on the skinny side, you can only get half way under it with the forks, which makes it tippy. If you're on the wide side, you can only get forks under it towards the center, so it's super tippy.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on getting your lathe. 
I am curious to know when you ordered your lathe. I ordered my 1440GT the last week in October. They gave me a mid February date for delivery. Now they are telling me mid March or April.


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## B2 (Jan 29, 2022)

The line voltage wires to the VFD as well as from the VFD to the motor are carrying significant currents.  However, most of the noise and interference are inductive and are caused by the sudden changes in the current.  The VFD drives the motor with pulse width modulation and so these are the critical wires.... from the VFD to the 3phase motor.   I do not know your physical configuration, but assume that the enclosure containing the VFD will be only a few feet from the motor.  (A wall mount or mounted to the outside of the lathe stand somewhere?).   The electromagnetic fields generated by these currents in these wires radiate outward and when they reach a conductor (shield) they create currents in the metallic shield. The thickness of the shield material needs to be at least the thickness of what is called the electrical "skin depth."  The skin depth goes as one over the frequency (harmonics of the switching currents time rate of change) of the changing current.  It also goes as 1/the conductivity of the shield material.   For high frequencies this is not to large so the metal thickness does not have to be very large.  A thick aluminum or copper foil will do but it should be grounded somewhere preferably near the motor or near the VFD, but in concept it does not have to be grounded at all. A heavy gauge Al foil will work if you can make a ground to it.  A steel covering will also work, but will need to be thicker as its conductivity is not nearly as good as copper or aluminum.  It might be easiest and the best to use a flexible steel conduit hose.  This would also physically protect the wires, especially if they are individual wires.  I cannot recall at the moment, but I think the wires can carry as much as 20 Amps to a motor under full load from the Hitachi 3HP VFD so that would be a 12 gauge stranded wire or larger.  If you web search on "metallic flexible conduit" you will see lots of examples.  The trick is to find a short piece so that you do not pay much.  Even Home Depot / Lowes or most electrical stores carry this, usually in steel and but sometimes in aluminum and sometimes they will cut a piece off for you.  Then you will need strain relief connectors at the ends. 

If you go the foil route then you could wrap a small bare wire around the foil and keep it pressed against.  The problem with this is that the bare wire really should be made from the same material as the foil to prevent chemical reactions. 

If we did not live so far apart I would just hand you what you need as I have lots of this stuff.


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## B2 (Jan 29, 2022)

PS.  Forgive me if you are already familiar with wiring....  If you look at my VFD conversion photos you will see the yellow cable I used to bring the line voltage to my lathe.  At the entry point into the lathe stand you will see the 90 degree strain relief that clamps the wire to the metal stand.  It has nut on the inside holding it to the stand.   The yellow cable is something that I picked up years ago and I finally found a good use for it.  It has 4 rubber insulated stranded 10 AWG wires inside the yellow rubber case.  Good stuff.  I am glad I did not have to go out and purchase it.  It is nice and flexible and so I can roll my lathe out from the wall to work on it without worrying about breaking the wires or taking the wires loose.


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## B2 (Jan 29, 2022)

Hi Mark,   @mksj 

Sorry to post this here, but ... since you provided a link to @jbolt  's TPI chart at this string I assume you will see this.   One does not usually need to know that power feed rates very well, but for what I am working on I would like to have it.  

Would you have an accurate "power feed" rate for the PM1340GT that you can share with me.   When I looked at the manual, and so the picture of the lathe plate, it gives numbers which are all over the map and only really accurate to one digit.  It does not actually say what the power feed rate is for any gear arrangement in the manual.  It just refers to the lathe plate.  Hence, I have insufficient data or info to deduce the apron (power feed) gear ratios.  Likewise, the manual does not provide any accurate internal gear descriptions, but as your TPI spread sheet shows one only needs to know a few of the TPI values for the standard 40T-40T external gears to deduce the internal gear ratios (not the number of teeth on individual gears).  (I did not see any power feed rates on your spread sheet, only the threading feed rates.)

If you do not have it maybe @davidpbest or someone else knows the answer. ?? I think he also has a PM1340GT and shared a Threading TPI chart for his lathe.  

While the manual and the lathe plate for my PM1440GT provides power feed rates I was able to actually measure them more accurately.  I simply let the power feed move the apron a long distance (~20 inches) while I used the 10x spindle counter (and the proximity trip to stop the lathe) that I included in my lathe panel to measure the number of turns accurately.  I then took the change in the DRO distance reading and divided by the number of spindle turns to get a power feed rate.  This was accurate enough (~ 5 digits) to actually determine a set of gear teeth counts in integers for the gear teeth numbers for the apron. (28/(25*38))  I suppose one could even do the same, but not nearly as accurate, by knowing a constant spindle RPM and measuring the time it took for the apron to travel a known long distance.  Anyway, this would probably be more accurate than the one digit numbers on the PM1340GT lathe plate!

Thanks.

Dave L.


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## davidpbest (Jan 30, 2022)

The answers are corked up in the attached, and it all has to do with the change gear combinations.  At least for the 1340GT.


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## B2 (Jan 30, 2022)

Hi David, @davidpbest 

Thanks David, but I don't think I was clear,  the z axis motion that is referred to in the spread sheet you attached is using the split nut lever which engages the lead screw (see descriptions: "Thread to thread in" and "Thread to thread mm").  These are simply the 1/TPI values.  These values are not from the power feed lever which I think produces a much slower motion of the apron.  The "power feed" lever moves the apron from the slotted rod not the lead screw.  The apron gears for this power feed lever are different and so the feed rate is usually much smaller.  It is on the PM1440GT.  

If you look at the lathe Thread Chart plate, also shown in Figure 3-7 of the PM online PM1340GT manual you will see in the center of it a column that lists as power feed rates for the apron as well as for the cross slide (inches).  They are not written out with any accuracy.  Just compare them to the cross feed rates as well as to simple factors of 2s. Hence, I am trying to find a more accurate number.  They do not depend upon your gear selection lever on the right (1,2,3, ...8) but do depend upon the left gear selector lever (A, B, C, D, E) so increments in factors of 2x only.   In side the gear box, the gears associated with the A, B, C, etc selection drives the shaft that and gears that link to and turns the slotted rod.  The transfer gears that are on this rod connect to another set of gears on a shaft that is above this one and which is connected to the lead screw ... for threading.  

On my 1440GT the gear selection levers has an extra position called "I".  It moves the lead screw gears to a position which is disengaged from the transfer gears on the slotted rods shaft.  So when in the "I" position the lead screw does not turn but the slotted rod does and one can do Power Feed without turning the lead screw.  I am not for sure why this feature is different between the lathes or why the 1440 needs to work this way but it maybe to allow one to do feeding without wear on the lead screw, split nut nor the lead screw and power feed gears, but even though your lead screw always turns you do not have to engage the spit nut to feed! So you can avoid wear on your split nut and leadscrew by just not using them for feeding.   The lever setup on your 1340 is more like my old South Bend 10 (attached photo) which does not have a slotted Power Feed rod at all, but has a lot more threading options than the 1340GT.  The SB10 has 10 fundamental threads with its lever selections and then there are 7 factors of 2.   While the PM1440GT, with its two levers systems, is set up considerably different from the 1340 it has 16 fundamental gear selections.  However, a number of them are not the standard threads and there is even a duplication of the 4TPI value, but worst thing is it is missing the 6TPI which means it is missing the standard 12TPI without using the external gears.    The first set are:  4.200, 5.600, 7.000, 4.582, 3.000, 4.000, 5.000, 3.273, 2.400, 3.200, 4.000, 2.618, 4.125, 5.500, 6.875, 4.500.  

With 7 factors of 2 and 10 fundamental threads the SB actually has the best set up for standard threads.  It even has a position for 480TPI!  I have yet to see anyone make such a thread, but it is very slow feed rate. 

Thanks again.

Dave L.


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## davidpbest (Jan 30, 2022)

Sorry I misunderstood.  On the 1340, you can move the carriage via the threading lead screw using the half-nut to engage, or you can advance the carriage via the slotted feed rod.  The spreadsheet I posted is mostly for the leadscrew.  That said, the ratios of the Norton gearbox which drives the slotted feed rod are, I believe, embedded in the spreadsheet.  I didn't author that data set - Mark Jacobs came up with the original.  You might want to check in with him (@mksj).  Sorry for the confusion.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 30, 2022)

B2 said:


> The line voltage wires to the VFD as well as from the VFD to the motor are carrying significant currents.  However, most of the noise and interference are inductive and are caused by the sudden changes in the current.  The VFD drives the motor with pulse width modulation and so these are the critical wires.... from the VFD to the 3phase motor.   I do not know your physical configuration, but assume that the enclosure containing the VFD will be only a few feet from the motor.  (A wall mount or mounted to the outside of the lathe stand somewhere?).   The electromagnetic fields generated by these currents in these wires radiate outward and when they reach a conductor (shield) they create currents in the metallic shield. The thickness of the shield material needs to be at least the thickness of what is called the electrical "skin depth."  The skin depth goes as one over the frequency (harmonics of the switching currents time rate of change) of the changing current.  It also goes as 1/the conductivity of the shield material.   For high frequencies this is not to large so the metal thickness does not have to be very large.  A thick aluminum or copper foil will do but it should be grounded somewhere preferably near the motor or near the VFD, but in concept it does not have to be grounded at all. A heavy gauge Al foil will work if you can make a ground to it.  A steel covering will also work, but will need to be thicker as its conductivity is not nearly as good as copper or aluminum.  It might be easiest and the best to use a flexible steel conduit hose.  This would also physically protect the wires, especially if they are individual wires.  I cannot recall at the moment, but I think the wires can carry as much as 20 Amps to a motor under full load from the Hitachi 3HP VFD so that would be a 12 gauge stranded wire or larger.  If you web search on "metallic flexible conduit" you will see lots of examples.  The trick is to find a short piece so that you do not pay much.  Even Home Depot / Lowes or most electrical stores carry this, usually in steel and but sometimes in aluminum and sometimes they will cut a piece off for you.  Then you will need strain relief connectors at the ends.
> 
> If you go the foil route then you could wrap a small bare wire around the foil and keep it pressed against.  The problem with this is that the bare wire really should be made from the same material as the foil to prevent chemical reactions.
> 
> If we did not live so far apart I would just hand you what you need as I have lots of this stuff.



Appreciate the info. I'm familiar with electrical and electronics (I've wired homes, built custom PCB's for adruino projects, etc etc) I don't know everything, but am following what you're telling me. 

My box will be mounted on the lathe so my runs will be as short as possible. I've got everything I need except the flexible conduit. 


I spent the day yesterday going over the wiring and making sure I understand how it's all plumbed. The document attached is what I am using as a reference. (I wish I could credit/remember which user created the doc) 


Today I'm getting the VFD drivers and software loaded up, and will start reading about how it fits in the picture. Stuff like how to integrate the foot brake switch is still a bit unclear.


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## xr650rRider (Jan 30, 2022)

That document has Mark Jacobs all over it.  I sure didn't go down the rabbit hole of shielded motor cables, foil wrap all that jazz.  In fact never did with 60HP AC vari-drives.  Just not necessary.  Extremely long runs end up with a capacitor installed near the motor to nullify spikes in the windings.  Your motor full load amps should be around 9.6 amps,  so even 14 gauge is sufficient.  Regular ole 600 volt insulation class wires will work fine.  I ran 14/4 SOOW cable from receptacle to VFD box, then 14/3 SOOW from VFD to motor.  The PM-1340GT is only 2HP with around 6.7 or so FLA, so was overkill but readily available.

There was a document or at least a few posts where Mark explained the need for the limit switch installed on the footbrake.  It basically disables the programmed regenerative stop using the drive and lets the VFD not "help" the stop but lets the foot brake do it's normal mechanical thing.


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## mksj (Jan 30, 2022)

You do not need shielded wire for the power to the VFD, but it is recommended for the motor cable if it is over several feet. Motor cable shield and the ground wire are grounded at both ends for shielded motor cable, control cables only at the VFD end. Do not tie power cables together with control level (signal) cables, they should be a few inches apart but are fine to cross. I typically bring in the power cables on one side of the VFD enclosure and the control wires on the other. Professional installers will route the different voltage wires in groups somewhat isolated from each other within an enclosure, which is what I do, but for simple installs not a big issue. Just keep the wiring neat, and use the proper terminations, terminals should be properly tightened, and recheched with the power off once or twice afterwards as wires may shift.

I have had issues with electrical noise interference with unshielded motor cable, but also needed a ling input electrical filter. It is optional. You are correct, you need to issue a free run command to the VFD when using the manual foot brake, this requires a dual pole foot switch. I use a separate relay in some of my designs.

You should use ferrules on the control wire connections at the VFD end, use shrink tube or electrical tape on the shield grounds to prevent shorting see pictures below.


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## xr650rRider (Jan 30, 2022)

B2 there is a document on Precision Matthews website that has the correct threading and feeding chart. The constant between feed and leadscrew is 4.2405. Looks like you want to cut some non-standard threads using the feed lever? Install an ELS and you can program any ratio you want.

My PM-1340GT had a sticker with incorrect feed rates.  I noticed newer ones seemed to have correct sticker.  Not sure when change occurred.


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## xr650rRider (Jan 30, 2022)

With all AC drives, without an isolation transformer (best) or input filter the noise they generate is reflected back on the input lines all the way to the main transformer.  The more drives installed the worse it gets.  I haven't noticed any problems with a couple small drives.


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## Ken226 (Jan 30, 2022)

mksj said:


> You do not need shielded wire for the power to the VFD, but it is recommended for the motor cable if it is over several feet. Motor cable shield and the ground wire are grounded at both ends for shielded motor cable, control cables only at the VFD end.




Mark,

I have a CNC mill that uses a 2hp 8000rpm GlockCNC BLDC motor for the spindle.  Eveything in the electronics cabinet is well shielded, as well as the limit/home switch cables and E-stop cables.

When I run the BLDC motor over about 5000rpm I get an occasional Estop trigger error.  No problems ever, below 5000rpm,  but above 5000rpm, the ocurrance rate of the error increases proportional to the increase in RPM.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with BLDC motors and their associated controllers, but it seems pretty similar to a VFD and 3 phase motor, except @ about 500 volts.  The power cables between the BLDC controller and motor came hard-wired, with no plugs, and are un-sheilded.   Do you think this could be the source of the E-Stop errors?   I have ferrites on the motor cables, but no shielding.

Do you think it would help if I added some shielding to the motor cables?


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## B2 (Jan 30, 2022)

Hi @LVLAaron

I am not for sure who wrote the document your you posted.  I did not read it closely enough to see if if it is correct or not, but could help you if you need for me to read some specific part.  However, the drawings look like those of Mark Jacob's.  Plus the phrase "This is only for new machines as used contactors will most likely not work because of increased contact resistance from previous contact arching " sounds like one of his phrases So maybe it is one of his versions. I also noted that the document implies that this is not a preferred approach. Note that it also has a disclaimer that it is 'Untested" and the author takes no responsibility for it. So I would not trust it without understanding it and I would test it along the way.

Recall my  solid state VFD conversion:  *Solid State VFD*
  Part 1 shows and describes how the original control wiring works. 

Also, the electronic brake and the mechanical break are different and the mechanical break should go to a special VFD input, plus coding to cause the motor to stop and to free spin.   That is, when you hit the mechanical break you do not want the electronic brake to also be being applied.  This would be conflict.  So if you look at the schematic Figure 3, Part 2  you will see that for my design when the mechanical brake switch opens it does two things.  1) It shuts off the motor via the latch and 1) it starves the VFD control input 5 EXT of current (takes it low).  With the coding that I provided for the VFD at the end of Part 2 you will find the code for Input 5 and EXT.  This causes the VFD signals to the motor to cause the motor to free wheel (no electronic braking).  It also cuts the current to the Forward and Reverse VFD inputs via the transistors shutting off and it causes the latch circuit to unlatch. 

Dave L.


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## mksj (Jan 30, 2022)

BLDC motors are very similar to vector type motors, so you need feedback with a BLDC to control the motor speed. Newer VFD's can drive BLDC motors, so I assume there are the same issues with switching noise. Noise from the electrical switching can be a big issue as well as grounding, but it is often it takes some trial and error. There are also different ways to terminate the encoder shield and noise filters, but I have only used the ones that have been preconfigured and used shielded cable. VFD's I have done hundreds and try to follow the manufactures recommendations, so use shielded for most of the cables. W/O shielding/noise filters I have had cases where other wireless equipment has experienced interference problems. There are different approaches, but my general approach is to try to minimize issues with electrical false signaling and also build several levels of redundancy.

Many people have used the contactors to switch the VFD inputs, it does work if they are new, but contactors are designed for higher voltages/currents. Some very early installs I tried to use used contactors and they were not reliable for low level signals  for various reasons, I have also seen this with people that insist on using older switch gear that was used for higher voltages. Still, there are probably 100's of installs with using what I call the basic VFD install with new contactors and I am not aware of anybody reporting problems. It is up to each individual to decide what approach they want to take, but should always strive to make a safe control system and do adequate testing.

As I mentioned previously, if you have a mechanical brake, you need to issue a free run command to the VFD as well as break the run command latch so the lathe cannot restart when you release the mechanical brake. So this requires a dual pole foot switch instead of the stock single pole.  One side is for the stock wiring which is NC and brakes the control power (latch), the other side is NO and connects P24 VFD input to the programed free run command input.  There are a number of different approaches and this also depends on the VFD model. The switches are readily available, make sure when you install that it is positioned correctly and activates as soon as the brake is partially engaged.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 30, 2022)

Spent the day going through this doc (again, missing attribution, apologies, I saved these docs 9 months ago) and the VFD quick start guide. I'm pretty sure I understand how it's all supposed to work now. Going to sleep on it and focus on getting the box mounted to the lathe. I might end up putting it on a hinge so I can still get to the drive end of the lathe stand without removing the box.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 30, 2022)

Remembered that I have a couple of these switches in the shop. These should work for the foot switch.

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01HKRP..._dp_H9Q3K788T03TBSQCXRSH?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


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## B2 (Jan 31, 2022)

@LVLAaron    Are you talking about the foot brake switch? 

If so whether you need a NO or NC depends upon your control circuit design and how you use it.  You will note in my solid state circuit figure 3 (Part 2),  that I use a NC type switch.  It is shown at the top of the circuits, right in the center, just below the +24V notation.  Hence, I simply used the switch that came with the lathe.  No new purchase nor installation change.  If I recall the EXT, VFD function input C005 can be configured to receive either logic level, "normally open or normally closed".  This is done at input "C015, Input [5]     active state 01:normally closed [...  ".  See Part 2 code sheet at the end of the document in yellow high-lite, pfd (page 48  I think).  By the way the 7 VFD logic inputs are defined by the C001...C007 while the active logic levels are defined via C011... to C017.  ( It appears that my logic input assignments are different from the document you just posted.... most of them are somewhat arbitrary as to function... you just use the pull down selection tab in the VFD programing.)  

The by the way, in the factory circuit, Part 1, Figure 2 you will see that the foot brake switch was wired in series originally with the E-stop and cover inter-lock switches etc.  Hence, they had to be NC to operate in series and this is both good and important.  The factory did this correctly.  There is a big safety concern about using normally open (NO) configurations.  Suppose the wire connection fails/comes loose or breaks or even the switch fails (open), then you never know it has failed until you have a need for the function and you need to close the switch BUT the signal cannot get there because of closed cannot happen due to this failure.  For this reason you want to hook things like the foot brake and the E-stop up with normally closed switches not normally open switches!  Safety First!

Using the EXT input also has another advantage (at least I think it is an advantage).  It puts the VFD/Motor into free run (free spin) and after you have an event, you must apply a reset command (my VFD input 7) to the VFD to get to continue to operate.  I view the application of the foot brake to be an emergency event.  You don't need to use it otherwise as you already have electronic braking.  After you have this VFD conversion you will find that the e-brake is so effective that you never use the foot brake unless you have a serious problem.  

The I took Mark's suggestion and set the e-brake time to 1 second.  The secondary e-brake time (my VFD input #6 and is called Channel 2 (CH2) in the VFD vocabulary)  is programed to 3 seconds and that is what I use almost all of the time.  I have a front panel switches for these choices.    I figure 3 seconds e-braking time causes less wear on the machine, motor, and motor belts than the 1 second braking.  I only use the 1 second braking when I am using the proximity stop or if I want the motor to stop more quickly when I am feeding manually.  I find that stopping in 1 second is usually over kill.   Even in free run the spindle stops pretty quickly even with the three jaw chuck and a work part in it.  There appears to be lots of friction in the motor, belts, and all of the gears.  The mechanical foot brake IS very effective.  It seems to stop the spindle even faster than the 1 second ebrake, but I have never tried to measure it.  I will also probably eventually wear.  

Dave L.


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## mksj (Jan 31, 2022)

Limit switch needs to be dual through (DPDT), the Amazon switch is a SPDT with one NO/NC/common

Honeywell GLLA01D 


			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/GLLA01D?qs=nFt9sTYf7TANAaJvFtctjw%3D%3D
		

Honeywell GLLA01C


			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/GLLA01C?qs=nFt9sTYf7TBPLntJmoelTg%3D%3D
		


Automation Direct ABM1E32Z11


			https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/sensors_-z-_encoders/limit_switches/heavy_duty_metal_iec_limit_switches/one-way_lever_with_roller_actuator/abm1e32z11
		


The pivoting lever give one longer travel, these use metal rollers. They are two separate switch circuits.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 31, 2022)

mksj said:


> Limit switch needs to be dual through (DPDT), the Amazon switch is a SPDT with one NO/NC/common
> 
> Honeywell GLLA01D
> 
> ...



Thanks dude.


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## LVLAaron (Jan 31, 2022)

I got all of the factory high voltage wiring out of the cabinet, some fresh 240 going in, and have all of the factory controls working!









I've done most of the VFD programming at this point, but waiting on some shielded cable and another review of the VFD settings and config.

Next up while I wait for a couple odds and ends to be delivered I'll install a lighted e-stop and speed control in the front panel .


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## B2 (Jan 31, 2022)

Congratulations!  Nice feeling!


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## LVLAaron (Jan 31, 2022)

Not gonna lie. I forgot the put the side cover back on and was really cranky for about 10 seconds before I remembered the interlock on it!


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## LVLAaron (Feb 1, 2022)

Still waiting on parts, and deciding if I want two stage braking. But got a lighted e-stop installed along with speed 5k pot. 

Also put an EMI filter in my electrical box but no photos.


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## mksj (Feb 1, 2022)

I would recommend having the option of 2 braking rates, in particular for threading you want quick stops. It is easy enough to implement, and nominal cost of a small toggle switch. I do use input line filters on my machines, more preventive as opposed to necessary.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 2, 2022)

mksj said:


> I would recommend having the option of 2 braking rates, in particular for threading you want quick stops. It is easy enough to implement, and nominal cost of a small toggle switch. I do use input line filters on my machines, more preventive as opposed to necessary.



I'm sure I'll add it. Later.


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## xr650rRider (Feb 2, 2022)

I have the switch for 1 or 3 second braking.  Since I do all threading away from headstock and no proximity sensor.  I never use the 3 second setting.  I've had up to 4" stock but never enough inertia that it faulted on a braking overload. 8" 4 jaw is my biggest chuck.  Maybe larger chuck, heavier load you might need the longer time.  It is the simplest thing to add.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 2, 2022)

xr650rRider said:


> I have the switch for 1 or 3 second braking.  Since I do all threading away from headstock and no proximity sensor.  I never use the 3 second setting.  I've had up to 4" stock but never enough inertia that it faulted on a braking overload. 8" 4 jaw is my biggest chuck.  Maybe larger chuck, heavier load you might need the longer time.  It is the simplest thing to add.



It's something I'll definitely add. I'm just focused on making the "basic" things work and spin before adding new things.


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## B2 (Feb 2, 2022)

I agree with others.  Add the 2 Channel switch to get the two times.  To avoid wear on the belts etc I run the longer braking time except when I really need the shorter braking time, i.e. using the proximity stop or doing it manually.  It is just a switch and another wire back to the VFD input.  However, I can see why you might not want to mess with your front panel clean look.  Maybe a mini-switch.  They are  also quite reliable.  

Dave L.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 2, 2022)

Got the new footswitch installed. It's a huge switch so it needed to be moved from the factory location. 

Wires run for the footswitch as well as the forward and reverse contactor. 

By the end of the weekend I hope to have the motor spinning.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 3, 2022)

Gang, could use some help locating the 8 conductor VFD control cable... Just need a part number or supplier that sells less than 1000ft. Having a hard time.


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## Just for fun (Feb 3, 2022)

Automation Direct has 12 conductor right now.



			https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/cables/bulk_multi-conductor_cable/control_-a-_signal_cable/q7160-1
		


The 8 conductor is sold out.



			https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/cables/bulk_multi-conductor_cable/control_-a-_signal_cable/q7145-1
		


Tim


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## LVLAaron (Feb 3, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> Automation Direct has 12 conductor right now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those are not shielded, but I found this, which should work: https://smile.amazon.com/Jameco-Val...s=1&sprefix=9+wire+shielded+wir,aps,79&sr=8-9


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## Just for fun (Feb 3, 2022)

I think you only need the shielding on the 3-conductor speed control and power to the motor.  At least I hope that is the case because that is what I am using.


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## sr71xjet (Feb 3, 2022)

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/cables/bulk_multi-conductor_cable/600v_control_cable/cc600-18-12s-1
		


What i got. Might work fir ya.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 3, 2022)

Dummy electrical question.

To recap, I have all of my stock controls working and the high voltage wiring removed from the FWD and REV contactor.






So there's the factory 24v system going through all of the controls.

And I'm going through the docs I've referenced previously, and see something like this:






If I am keeping the factory 24v system and interlocks, does the VFD 24v (P24) need to go through the e-stop, in this example?

I was planning on running VFD P24 through the contactors as noted in the first picture. I don't see a safety/interlock concern, because the footbrake, e-stop, and FW/REV circuits would all still work on the factory 24v system and break any input to the VFD by way of releasing the contactors.

Admittely, I am a dummy so let me hear it.


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## xr650rRider (Feb 3, 2022)

I would/did wire P24 thru an additional contact on the E-stop.  Some drives require a 1 on the stop input before the drive will run.  Removing that 1 indicates you want to stop now.  Having dual contacts on the switches allows the factory control to operate as original and the extra contact is wired for the drive logic inputs.

For wire, I think I ordered most of mine from Wire & Cable Your Way.


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## mksj (Feb 4, 2022)

Running the P24 through a separate switch block is an additional level of redundancy/safety. If for some reason a contactor did not release or a spindle control failed closed, it adds 2 serial actions that discontinue the VFD signaling process. Very unlikely to have a contactor fail closed, and the current E-Stop kills power to the contactors so they would go open. So it is an option as an additional safety, to how the current controls work. P24/VFD input power is completely separate from the 24VAC that controls the lathe relay/contactors.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 4, 2022)

BREAKING NEWS:

It spins! In both directions!







Don't ask to see my box. You'd see see wago connectors and hate.


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## jwmelvin (Feb 4, 2022)

Good stuff getting it going. I love Wago connectors.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 4, 2022)

Next up - Need to deal with the free spin "thing" - Do the motor tune (if I need to do that?) and redo the wiring. Right now it's an ocopus of long wires and wagos.


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## xr650rRider (Feb 4, 2022)

Unless you know the motor parameters to use and want to enter them manually then you'd want to auto tune.  You'll need to remove the belts.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 4, 2022)

xr650rRider said:


> Unless you know the motor parameters to use and want to enter them manually then you'd want to auto tune.  You'll need to remove the belts.



I most certainly do not know


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## LVLAaron (Feb 6, 2022)

I got the motor tuning completed, wiring buttoned up, and I'm ready for a nap. Time to move it into it's final place!

Also, two stage switch is dangling there. Need to either get a 20mm bit or a different switch. I'm just going to mount it on the control box.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 6, 2022)

The only concern I have now is the resistor setup in the VFD. I have a 47ohm 400 watt resistor installed but it is detected as 35 - Normal? Something to be concerned about?


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## mksj (Feb 6, 2022)

Normal, for it to put in some default value for the braking resistor. Use a mini toggle for the brake rate switch.


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## B2 (Feb 6, 2022)

Congratulations on your completion. 

Your photo shows that 35 Ohm is the factory default value.  Code line b097,  I am pretty sure you can program it by hand and b095 is where it is enabled.  However, if you are unsure of the value and you have a decent VOM I suggest that you measure the device when disconnected to determine the DC resistance.   Make sure you make very good electrical contact or your reading maybe high.    I doubt that the wire wound resistors have any significant inductive component at these low frequencies, but I do not know what device you purchased so who knows for sure what they put in it? 

Dave L.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 6, 2022)

B2 said:


> Congratulations on your completion.
> 
> Your photo shows that 35 Ohm is the factory default value.  Code line b097,  I am pretty sure you can program it by hand and b095 is where it is enabled.  However, if you are unsure of the value and you have a decent VOM I suggest that you measure the device when disconnected to determine the DC resistance.   Make sure you make very good electrical contact or your reading maybe high.    I doubt that the wire wound resistors have any significant inductive component at these low frequencies, but I do not know what device you purchased so who knows for sure what they put in it?
> 
> Dave L.



Thanks! I think the hardest part so far was taking the belts off the motor. :|






						ARF400 47R J Ohmite | Resistors | DigiKey
					

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That's the resistor I have - The doc floating around here for VFD setup says it automatically sets that value - it's not editable as far as I can tell.


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## B2 (Feb 6, 2022)

Interesting.  Maybe my system came up with the braking resistance number in the auto tune, but I thought I manually put it in.  My resistor is the home made resistor that fit in the rear cavity along with everything else of the VFD conversion. If you want to look at my reference, Part 2 that I posted, you will find VFD program settings as an appendix at the back of the document.  The resistor value shone in my table was correct as I went with 50 Ohms.  If you have lost it here is another link to the discussion


B2 said:


> Hence, the space requirements significantly decreased and I was able to get everything into the original lathe enclosure with room to spare. It even includes a homemade, inexpensive, 50 Ohm 400 watt (or a 37.5 Ohm by 300 watt) braking resistor.


I assume that you are going to mount your resistor to the inside wall of your enclosure? I looked at the specs.  It will be fine.  However, I would probably have to break it open to understand their design in detail.  The doe not provide any information about frequency dependence,I assume because it is small.  All wire wound resistors are similar.  One uses a NiCr alloy wire ("resistance wire") and runs current through it.  It has kind of high resistance and so one just sizes the diameter to length to achieve the desire resistance value.  If you make it bigger in diameter and longer than you can still get the same resistance and it will dissipate more heat before the wire melts.   In these types of device the usually bury the wire in a ceramic like material which is  enclosed by the outside Aluminum.  The design of this stuff sort of determines how fast the head can get out before the wire gets so hot that the housing would crack open.  Anyway, 400 watts is way over kill for our application.  It never gets hot.  These big resistors are really design for process mills etc where the motor is constantly/continuously accelerating and decelerating (braking) with big loads.  To test my resistor, I started my lathe up to high speed and shut it down via fast ebrake a bunch of times as fast as I could and then gave my resistors the old heat sensing finger test.  They were just starting to get warm.    I suspect that even a 50watt resistor would work fine just because of the duty factor of when are running versus how often  we apply the break. Also, my design has air flowing over the resistor assembly as it come from the VFD fan. Anyway, my individual resistors were wired up to yield 50 ohms but could have been wired up to yield other values, over all by putting some in parallel with some in series and the package size is still smaller than the commercial ones.  While yours looks pretty nicely packaged, they usually remind me of the shape of a bulky Sea Slug.  (I scuba dive and so have often seen them(sea slug) inching their way across the ocean sand floor.)

Your resistor is going to be fine.   But if you can get the manual programing work to function I would do so.   Why not?

PS.  During one of my first jobs (1970) I had to spec and test transformers for a rather complex multi output power supply I was designing.  This was for a small electronic publishing equipment house in New Hampshire, while I was in graduate school in Boston.  So for a load I took a plywood board and with stand offs I mounted a serpentine resistance wire of some length.   I could then just clip the output of the transformer to various points along the wire to see the effect of loading.   Due to internal resistance and saturation of the of the transformer windings and core the output voltages from the various secondary windings did not all degrade at the same rates.  Obviously the core saturating also cause the voltages from some outputs to be too low while others were meeting spec.    Redesigns were required.  

I also used this same fixture to test various fuses as to when they would burn out.  They were pretty consistent.  Most of the common BUSE type fuses would burn out at the same voltage drop ~0.1 volt.   Hence, sometimes in a circuit when I need a very small resistor but the exact value is not critical,  I just do the calculation and use a fuse as the resistor, choosing the knowledge that at the current load rating occur about 0.1 volt. Hence you know the resistance of the fuse.  They are usually much cheaper than purchasing a power resistor and commonly easier to mount. By the way due to the resistance at the contacts, you have to have special equipment to measure the very small resistance of low resistance devices.  It is called a 4 point probe and you can usually purchase these as good impedance analyzers.  I have one.  Typical cost is a few thousand dollars. They will tell you the L, R, and C value of a device at various voltages and a various frequencies.  Very handy when you need it.    

Dave L.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 7, 2022)

A quick thank you to everyone here. I don't even have the lathe off of the pallet yet and had to do something with it. This is my first time using a lathe. Really thrilled with the support and help around here!


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## Just for fun (Feb 7, 2022)

Cool, What is it?


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## LVLAaron (Feb 7, 2022)

Nothing. Just wanted to chuck something up and thread it!


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## IamNotImportant (Feb 7, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> View attachment 395486
> 
> 
> 
> A quick thank you to everyone here. I don't even have the lathe off of the pallet yet and had to do something with it. This is my first time using a lathe. Really thrilled with the support and help around here!


which scale is that?


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## LVLAaron (Feb 8, 2022)

FX 120


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## xr650rRider (Feb 8, 2022)

Thread looks awesome.  Good job on getting VFD installed.  Now a bit of advice.  Be careful what you say around your significant other.  Comments like "How did I ever live without you?", will be heard and a response will be "that's so nice of you" but then you answer "I was talking about the lathe!!"  Really need to finish that book on things you shouldn't say out loud.

I just finished using mine on 250 pieces of 6PPC brass for trimming, neck turning and trimming again.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 8, 2022)

Not married, so no worries on the things I shouldn't say out loud. My girlfriend absolutely thinks I'm crazy though. 

My first real project will be running a 9/32nd's end mill through these... and then capturing some coyotes.


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## LVLAaron (Feb 8, 2022)

Getting it off the pallet was probably the hardest part of the whole project. But it can be done with one engine hoist, and a small recip saw.


----------

