# Heating The Shop



## mcoak

I am in the process of finishing my shop. Finished size will be 15 ft x 30 ft with a 9 foot ceiling. Walls will be R29 and ceiling R42. 
One of my open questions is how to heat. My options are propane or electric. Looking for a 500 gallon propane tank and not finding one locally. 

The walls are open now but the electricians will be coming in a month. So I need to make a decision and get the hardware lined up. 

Thanks,
Mitch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldboy1950

this is probably too late but a heated slab with lots of insulation underneath .
my electrician heats his shop with electric- hydronic which is basically a very efficient electric hot water heater with no tank.
he circulates the water through pex tubing in the slab.
Dan


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## Holescreek

My shop area is 24'x28'x8' and ive used a single  220v electric heater called " the hot one" for around 25 years in SW Ohio. I start it when I take the dog  out in the morning then 30 or 40 minutes later the room has gone from 35 to 60 degrees.  A lot depends on the type of weather you get in your area. My heater gets shut off when I'm  done for the day, about 4 hours later.


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## Mark in Indiana

If I spent more time in the shop during the winter, I'd probably have a ceiling mount, forces air, natural gas heater. It's likely the most economic way to go, for a heater installation in an already built garage. But when I have to be out there, I just run a couple of propane heaters (with a window cracked open). Not as comfortable as the house, but it takes the edge away from the cold.


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## gr8legs

We have natural gas available so I put in a ceiling forced air heater of about 100KBTU for our 24 x 24 x 9' shop space. I put it in a corner to optimize air circulation.

Enough BTUs to bring the temperature up really fast when needed - and the AC power feed for the heater is connected to the lighting circuit so no lights- no heat and no likelihood of leaving the heater on over a weekend. Warm and toasty in the shop is a good thing!

If you don't have natural gas available, propane is the best option - much cheaper than electric for heating. We looked into a propane tank for our standby generator and if you shop around several propane suppliers will rent you a tank for $50-$75 a year, even with minimal propane gallonage. It didn't make sense to buy a tank if rental was so cheap. Definitely check with all available propane suppliers. 

Stu


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## kvt

I live in a warm area so I just use a small propane heater,   Designed for inside usage.   But one that I have seen and is what I want if I build a separate shop is oil fired.   It uses waste engine oil, cooking oil, atf, etc.   Filters it then pressurizes it and heat  is good,   It is like a forced air heater but uses the waste oils for fuel.   I have been around some in Alaska,   and have seen some in other places,   and even found plans for one on line at one time.   I know in AK,  it heated an auto hobby shop that is bigger than most mechanics shops,   and even with the doors open in the middle of winter it got nice and toasty in there.   Some times to hot.  But if you and your friends change your own oils, or you make a deal with the local shop,  it is cheap heat.


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## fastback

My shop is 14 x 20, and I use a ceiling hung 5000 watt 220 volt heater.  It does the job, but I find the cost a bit high.  I have R16 in the walls and 9 inch fiberglass bats in the ceiling. My floor (concrete) has a vapor barrier but no insulation.  I think that is where I went wrong.  The floor tends to get very cold. While the heating of shop is very good our electric rates are relatively high.  If my shop was larger and I had a bit more room I would probably have gone to a pellet stove set up with a wall thermometer. 

One of the heating problems is when the heat is off for a long period the tools and machines get cold and takes some time to rewarm, this tends to waste heating energy.

Paul


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## mcoak

Thanks to everyone for their responses.   Too late to install a heated slab in the garage.   Looking at energy costs in my area propane is less expensive than electric.  All of the propane suppliers in my area have very poor online reviews.  That's one of the main reasons I am even considering electricity.  I'm reluctant to lease a propane tank since that locks me into a single supplier. 

Does anyone have experience with ceiling mounted propane fired radiant heaters?   

I won't be in the shop much during the week.  I do want to keep the shop warm enough to prevent condensation on the machines.   And I'll turn the heat up on weekends when I'm in the shop.

Mitch


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## GA Gyro

The type of heat you use... depends on the weather.

If it were me... I would look into what is called 'dual-fuel'.  A furnace (nat gas or propane), with a HP attached.  
The controller has a set-point (outdoor temp) above and the HP runs, below and the gas furnace runs.  One can get a thermostat that does the controller function.

Another approach would be an invertor drive mini-split...


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## Cobra

Little different climate but I have been very happy with overhead (doesn't take up floor space) natural gas. 
I have two 75 KBTU units for the forward and back of the space.  Keep the garage at about 10C minimum and just use the forward heater when I am in the shop.  Very seldom need both at the same time.


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## tpic402

mcoak said:


> I am in the process of finishing my shop. Finished size will be 15 ft x 30 ft with a 9 foot ceiling. Walls will be R29 and ceiling R42.
> One of my open questions is how to heat. My options are propane or electric. Looking for a 500 gallon propane tank and not finding one locally.
> 
> The walls are open now but the electricians will be coming in a month. So I need to make a decision and get the hardware lined up.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mitch
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I used the 500 watt farenheat hanging electric heater very happy ,
 leave on all time on low.  Shop 24×14×9.   Insulated . I considered propane but the coat of heater and tank would take long time to pay for itself.


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## Brain Coral

Hello Mitch 

I have a shop that is 26'x 36' with a 10'6" ceiling that I heat with electric baseboard heaters. My walls are R-20 and ceiling is R-40 insulated.  My heaters will automatically come on at 5* celsius during the colder parts of the year and I have no problems with any machinery rusting, whatsoever. We have brutal winters up here, and I only use my shop on weekends as well... My electric bill goes from $90.00 a month in the summer, to around $160.00 in the winter... Oh, I must add, that my shop is below my living quarters and this cost is for heating my entire house...




Brian


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## mcoak

Thanks to everyone for their responses.  

The shop walls will be R29 and the ceiling R42.    My location is  in the zone 5 area of West Virginia, the past few winters have been colder than usual.  I am leaning toward a propane Modine Hot Dawg.  If I were to use electric heat it would probably require a separate service to the garage.  The power company quoted $2800 for that, if I dig the trench, build the transformer pad and run in the conduit.


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## Thumper

My shop is 25 x 50 and I originally installed a natural gas 40,000 BTU ceiling mounted heater. This worked well for winter heat in southern Ontario.
Our summers do get hot sometimes so I decided I needed something to cool off the shop.
I tried a window A/C unit but that was noisy and didn't work all that well.
I ended up getting a 18,000 BTU Ductless Heat Pump. $1200 on ebay. Installed it myself then paid licensed A/C guy $200 to charge it with gas and check it over. Extremely efficient. Maximum draw is 10 A @ 220 V. I use it summer and winter and never turn on the gas heat.


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## rmack898

My shop is 40x40 with 12' ceiling. I have one 20' propane fired infrared tube heater and that keeps the shop nice and warm all winter. I keep it at 50* when I'm not out there and crank it up to 68* when I'm working. I'll burn about 400 gallons for an average winter and I'm on the Jersey coast and it does get cold here.


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## Falcon67

We're more concerned with cool here than heat, but I get a lot of mileage out of my Dayton G73 5kW heater.  Even in cold - that's 20s here - I can warm 960 sq/ft to a workable temp in about an hour.   It's mounted to the ceiling and swivels so I can point it where I need it.  In the 12x24 work room, it'll keep that space in the 70s when set just below LO on the thermostat.  The shop has an 8' ceiling and is R13 in all directions.

Hanging in front of the Hispanic Heritage Sliding Door.



I have a turbo propane heater that I just had to have (was on sale for $99) and I haven't used it once in 2 years.  I also have a dual burner Mr. Heater that mounts on a 20~40lb cylinder - haven't used it since I insulated the building back in 2011.

If you go with propane, I'd look at a 45K BTU vented ceiling mount type unit.


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## FOMOGO

In a space that small I would go with something like a 35k direct vent wall mount propane heater. They  terminate directly behind the heater on the exterior wall and also provide make up air from the same location. Doesn't take up much space and fairly efficient. I ran an add in the wanted section of Craigs List and found a 500 gal. tank for $300. Mike


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## GK1918

I'm in the same boat Mitch, construction started, adding on 15x30 8ft high. The main shop is 35 x 50 with 16ft
ceiling.  This was a bear to heat then this Jan. the oil fired furnace took dump.  My boy installed a new one,
smaller with a tiny little Becket. Fuel tank is a standard 275 gal. This is like 4 to 1 (old furnace used 4
tanks to this one's 1 tank. Instant heat & and its left on 24 / 7. What can I say.  I would not go electric
electric is killer round here.  Propane our locals usually will supply the "pig" they call it to buy their
propane.  But with oil deals can be found your choice.  Electric and natural gas you are locked
in.  But oil there were times we ran out usually in storms when the oil guys were out straight, and
we just would go to gas station for 5 gal of diesel. Back to the new shop, there will be a service door
into the main shop so the ceiling fan should blow some heat in the addition.  This will be well insulated
so my Kerosun heater should do (uses 1 gal 3 days on low). The street enterance will have A/C
office,  not needed here yet but will be there; when we get global warming.  My boy should have
it all built this coming week.  How in hell to move machines is the next feat.  All these are 3-4-5 ton
heavy weights .
good luck  sam


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## GK1918

Fridays workout.   Saturday framed and sided.


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## WalterC

Living down south here, we don't get as cold as you guys up north. We do have particularly cold periods where I use a little 750 watt elect heater to keep the shop at 50-60 degrees- other times, the older 42" big screen TV at 600 watts puts off a lot of heat and (watching the tool man Taylor, DVD's and so on- or just listening) keeps the shop warm enough.


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## mcoak

Hi Everyone,

It's been quite a while since I last posted.   For heating/ac I decided to go with a Mitsu mini-split.   I insulated the walls with R23 Roxul.  The main hold up now is getting an electrician to wire the shop.  One came out and did a day's work then didn't show up again.     Hoped to have the shop up and running by now.  Here are a few pictures of the work done this summer.


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## FOMOGO

Shop is looking good. Seems to take for ever, but eventually it gets there. I'll do your wiring if you'll do my sheet rock. Cheers, Mike


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## mcoak

The way things are going it will be next spring before the shop is done.   How long have you been working on yours?
Mitch


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## FOMOGO

This is the second year, but we are gone for 4 1/2 months in the winter. Hopefully I will get all the siding and trim done before we leave at the end of November. Got slowed down by wet weather, necessary work on my rentals, and my Dad's health issues among other things. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, just hope it's not a train coming the other way.   Mike


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## 6mmBR

mcoak said:


> Thanks to everyone for their responses.
> 
> The shop walls will be R29 and the ceiling R42.    My location is  in the zone 5 area of West Virginia, the past few winters have been colder than usual.  I am leaning toward a propane Modine Hot Dawg.  If I were to use electric heat it would probably require a separate service to the garage.  The power company quoted $2800 for that, if I dig the trench, build the transformer pad and run in the conduit.



I have a Hot Dawg and it works great. My garage is 20' x 24' x 8.5' high and it warms it up to 80 F if you want that. I keep it on just under 50 F so nothing will freeze in the garage when I'm not out there.  I live SW of Chicago, and our winters can be pretty brutal. I can work out there in shorts and a tank top if I want to, or dress normally and keep it lower.  In the summer I have a 12,000 BTU (1 ton) window unit that does the job nicely.


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## bpratl

My shop is small, 10' x 28', is well insulated and attached to the back on my garage.  I originally used a no vent 30k BTU propane heated but I found that it put so much moisture in the air that I was getting a lot of surface rust on all my equipment and hand tools so I had to remove it and install electric heaters. No more RUST but expensive to run. Bob


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## mcoak

Finally found an electrician!  Spoke with the electrical company and decided to with an underground service.   Time to start that 270' trench.


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## mcoak

Got a start on the trench.  The shale/clay mix makes for slow progress.   My dog inspected and approved the work.


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## raven7usa

Looks good. Can't beat canine approved.


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## middle.road

Isn't using a backhoe cheating? 
I do believe that your shop is better insulated than my home.
That looks like it will be very comfortable indeed.


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## mcoak

Middle,

If I hadn't cheated you would be reading about my trench adventures for the next five years.


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## mcoak

Raven,

My dog liked it so much he decided to jump in this morning.


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## joebiplane

mcoak said:


> I am in the process of finishing my shop. Finished size will be 15 ft x 30 ft with a 9 foot ceiling. Walls will be R29 and ceiling R42.
> One of my open questions is how to heat. My options are propane or electric. Looking for a 500 gallon propane tank and not finding one locally.
> 
> The walls are open now but the electricians will be coming in a month. So I need to make a decision and get the hardware lined up.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mitch
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mitch
I am blessed with natural gas  and after 10 years I sold my Monitor K-1 Kerosene since I cannot pay the price for kerosene any longer
Propane is about the most expensive fuel ( AFTER KEROSENE0  at least in South jersey.... I would look hard at electric in your area .  of course electric can be a cost killer in some areas.   Propane also causes Condensation unless you have fans circulating  to avoid rust...but talk to a few experts (Not the chuckle-heads that give advice here !  * just kidding...honest*)
Good luck


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## mcoak

Joe,

Thanks for responding!  

I am out in the country so my choices are wood, propane and electric.   

After a lot of research I decided to go with a Mitsubishi mini-split system for the shop.


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## poppaclutch

Not only does this Franklin stove fire place heat my shop, but in this picture there is also  a pile of files in the fire being annealed.


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## mcoak

I thought about installing a wood stove in the shop.  Might do it eventually.   We heat the house with a word stove.


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## kvt

Putting the wood stove in also gives a backup for any other system,   My luck is if I don't have a backup it breaks, but if I have a backup of some type nothing fails.


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## fastback

I wish I had enough room in my (small) shop, because I would have a wood or pellet stove.  I would probably lean toward the pellet stove. I have a wood stove in my woodshop and really like it, plenty of heat and very quickly I might add.  If I used wood it would only be while I was in the shop.  I don't like the idea of leaving something like that unattended.  

Paul


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## TommyD

I've got a small wood stove for my gay-raj, it's small but taking up a bunch of space I could use for tools. I've fired it up three times so far, if we keep with this decent weather I'd be a happy man. Just can't help but wonder where the snow and cold is.....


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## fastback

Well don't rush the cold and snow.  Remember last year?  We had a very mild December and the s--- hit the fan.  I don't mind the cold so much since I am prepared for that, but the snow plowing and shoveling keeps me out of the shops ( all three), and that I don't like.

Paul


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## GK1918

But Paul  snow is $$$$$$$$


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## fastback

For you it is, but not for me.  Hey Sam, have you moved into your addition?  I take it you are moving all of your machine tools. 

Paul


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## FOMOGO

GK1918 said:


> But Paul  snow is $$$$$$$$
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 116299



 Is that a recent pic? Would love to have that that old Ford dump, and you don't see many non articulating loaders like that anymore. Mike


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## middle.road

That is a great looking ol' Ford, it's even got a winch and a hood scoop.
What is that white material that they are loading into it? Wait, hold on, I think I almost remember....


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## GA Gyro

Some of those older trucks just do not know when they are old....
They just keep going... 

OTOH... I think I will pass on the mountains of white stuff... yall can have all the fun... <grin>


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## mcoak

Enjoying the unseasonably warm weather.   Pruned the fruit trees today in a short sleeve T shirt.


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## uncle harry

GA Gyro said:


> Some of those older trucks just do not know when they are old....
> They just keep going...
> 
> OTOH... I think I will pass on the mountains of white stuff... yall can have all the fun... <grin>



Gee thanks for your consideration !


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## GarageGuy

I've been using a small 35,000 BTU kerosene turbo heater for years, but kerosene is stupid expensive here at $4.59 a gallon.  It burns very clean, but because it isn't vented to the outside it introduces a lot of moisture into the shop.  

Last summer I put in some insulation and drywall (only got the walls done so far), but I can already tell it takes less heat to warm up the shop.  I decided to try one of the 5000w 220v electric heaters to see how it would work.  Menards has one for just under $100, and I have to say I think it is going to work.  

Our electricity is 7.4 cents per kilowatt hour, so it comes out to 37 cents an hour to run it.  An eight hour day is just under $3.  Two and a half gallons of kerosene lasts 8 hours, and costs about $12.  Right now I have 4 mil plastic up on the ceiling, but once I get my ceiling drywalled and insulated, it should take even less heat to make it comfortable in there.

I would love to put in a small natural gas heater because NG is the lowest cost form of heat in our area, but I would have to cut a hole in the roof for a chimney and run the gas line for it.  I'm not quite ready for that yet.  If and when I do put in NG heat, then I will be able to keep the shop warm 24/7 in the winter.  Looking forward to that.


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## GK1918

fastback said:


> For you it is, but not for me.  Hey Sam, have you moved into your addition?  I take it you are moving all of your machine tools.
> 
> Paul


Hi Paul, yes everything was cleaned touched up and moved from the big shop.  And it was a super pain even with my heavy equip.
The tough one was the mill cause the base is not flat (4 little feet) so we bolted 2x6's then rolled it on pipes. Then to get planks off
another big story The heat is 230 vt.  home depot jobs, so far works well don't know about Jan & Feb yet although we leave the
door open to the big shop & shut the electric one down over night.....so the new shop is the "clean room"
sam


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## randyjaco

Well for Christmas I bought myself a real shop heater, now I wish I had done it sooner. What a pleasure it is to have even heat all over the shop 8)

Randy


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## fastback

Randyjaco, looks like a nice heater.  One that that is important is to keep warm in the winter.

Hey Sam, you must be happier that a pig in S----.  The addition really came out great. Makes it nice to have all your machines in one spot.

Paul


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## jocat54

GarageGuy said:


> I've been using a small 35,000 BTU kerosene turbo heater for years, but kerosene is stupid expensive here at $4.59 a gallon.  It burns very clean, but because it isn't vented to the outside it introduces a lot of moisture into the shop.
> 
> Last summer I put in some insulation and drywall (only got the walls done so far), but I can already tell it takes less heat to warm up the shop.  I decided to try one of the 5000w 220v electric heaters to see how it would work.  Menards has one for just under $100, and I have to say I think it is going to work.
> 
> Our electricity is 7.4 cents per kilowatt hour, so it comes out to 37 cents an hour to run it.  An eight hour day is just under $3.  Two and a half gallons of kerosene lasts 8 hours, and costs about $12.  Right now I have 4 mil plastic up on the ceiling, but once I get my ceiling drywalled and insulated, it should take even less heat to make it comfortable in there.
> 
> I would love to put in a small natural gas heater because NG is the lowest cost form of heat in our area, but I would have to cut a hole in the roof for a chimney and run the gas line for it.  I'm not quite ready for that yet.  If and when I do put in NG heat, then I will be able to keep the shop warm 24/7 in the winter.  Looking forward to that.




I just bought a similar heater from Northern Tools. 
I also just insulated my shop and have been using a propane torpedo type heater. I still use it for the initial faster warm up and then the 5000w electric to maintain the heat and so far seems to be working okay. Keeps it about 60 to 65 with outside temps in the low 40's. I still have to insulate the back wall of the shop. Left it uninsulated with plans to add on to the back--but can't seem to find anyone that wants to work so a change in plans.


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## middle.road

randyjaco said:


> Well for Christmas I bought myself a real shop heater, now I wish I had done it sooner. What a pleasure it is to have even heat all over the shop 8)
> 
> Randy


Now that's a heater...!  How many sq. ft. is it covering? Oh to have Natural Gas (or Propane) *SNIFFLE*

I just packed it in for the night. 32°F looks to be the lower limit of keeping the shop comfortable with my 5000w.
Wind came up a bit I do believe it's sucking the warmth right out of the garage.
Gonna/gotta get new doors.
Why would someone insulate the heck out of the ceiling and not put *anything *in the walls?


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## randyjaco

middle.road said:


> Now that's a heater...!  How many sq. ft. is it covering? Oh to have Natural Gas (or Propane) *SNIFFLE*
> 
> I just packed it in for the night. 32°F looks to be the lower limit of keeping the shop comfortable with my 5000w.
> Wind came up a bit I do believe it's sucking the warmth right out of the garage.
> Gonna/gotta get new doors.
> Why would someone insulate the heck out of the ceiling and not put *anything *in the walls?



It is 75k btu . The shop is @900 sqft. It's a bit of overkill Southeast Texas, but I really hate working in a cold shop
Randy


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## Keith Foor

Personally I am a fan of a pellet stove.  They are very efficient, there is little cleaning or maintenance to them and the fuel comes in sacks.
You walk out dump in a bag and hit start and it creates heat.  When you are done for the day, turn it off.  The chimney temps are low because of the efficiency.  Because it burns very clean there is about zero chance of a chimney fire.  And you are basically burning sawdust pressed into pellets.  They are more expensive than an electric heater, but I would bet that running a 5KW electric heater would cost more in power than the bag o pellets and the bit of power to run the blowers.


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## pebbleworm

Pellet stoves can also burn corn, which can (and sometimes can't) be very cheap.  It depends on whether you have crop ground near you.  If corn is high, burn pellets, if it's cheap burn corn.  Old 500 bushel corn cribs were pretty much give-away items, but It's 20 years since I have been in that part of the world.


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## Grandpop

My garage is cuurently 12 x 26, but just got a zoning variance to add another 12 x 40 out the side. I currently have a 6000w 220 electric heater that I keep set to about 50 when not out there, then turn it up to about mid 60s when working. Considering either natural gas or maybe a small heat pump for the new space, with the electric as backup. Here in SE PA it costs about $80 a month for the electric heater.


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## Keith Foor

pebbleworm said:


> Pellet stoves can also burn corn, which can (and sometimes can't) be very cheap.  It depends on whether you have crop ground near you.  If corn is high, burn pellets, if it's cheap burn corn.  Old 500 bushel corn cribs were pretty much give-away items, but It's 20 years since I have been in that part of the world.




I heated my house with corn for several years.  Even to the point i had them come get the propane tank and it was my only option.  Mind you the corn furnace was rated at 165000 BTU (never ran it that high) but it did a good job.  Right now propane is cheaper in bulk, or it was similar last time I checked, but I have the furnace hooked up and can switch over at any point if needed.  
Corn has more BTU in it per pound than coal.  It's a very good, clean and renewable source of heat.
For a garage it's as idea as pellets due to being able to heat up reasonably quick, provide a lot of heat in a small heater and shut down safely without needing to be looked in on or chance of chimney fire.  Efficiency is similar to pellets in most units.  I could run mine hard and still not get enough heat in the chimney to peel the paper price stickers off the 8 inch stack.  It would only get very warm to the touch , but never hot enough to burn you.  

Due to the price of propane plummeting from $4.XX a gallon to $0.99 a gallon (last summer fill price) corn went from 2 bucks a bushel to 6 and is now back to $3 a bushel used stoves and furnaces litter craigslist and ebay.   For a small area, a small stove would be ideal.  For a large shop... 165000 BTU is a ton of heat.  And if you dropped PEX in your concrete, there are boilers that are fired by corn as well.


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## mcoak

I ended up having a Mitsubishi mini split system installed.

Working well so far, electric bill is low.


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## eugene13

I have a Coalman boiler, the mine here in town sells oiled stoker for $55 a ton and i buy 3 tons at a time and heat both my home and shop, 3860 sq ft.  With weather like now, 60s days 30s at night 700 Lb lasts about 6 days, when it's below zero about 3 days.  It's a lot of work to load fuel and pull ash but it's a good upper body workout and its cheap, the system cost $18000, it's been on line for eight years and has nearly paid for itself.


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## BGHansen

My shop is 32 x 40 but I partition it off in the winter time with heavy tarps running through the middle.  Separates my metal from wood side so I heat 24 x 32.  I have a 30K BTU ventless propane heater that bumps up the temp about 30 deg. from outside in about 45 minutes.  Makes it more than tolerable to work, but everything is still cold to the touch.  I don't have a rust issue with all of the water vapor from the propane combustion probably because there are two ceiling fans that run 24/7 on low.  Keeps the air moving and presumably helps evaporate any sweat off the machines.  I use a 100 lbs. tank for the propane source.

Bruce


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## kd4gij

If I need heat I just shut off the AC


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