# 220v w/VFD or new 110v motor for lathe?



## Splat (May 30, 2012)

My new-to-me SB Heavy 10 (actually, my first lathe) has a 3/4hp 220V 3-phase motor in it. It looks almost new, though I know that doesn't mean anything electrically. I have access to 1-phase 220v but would have to run some wiring to get it to the lathe. I have multiple 110v outlets right next to the lathe. So, I'm wondering what my best bet would be. Either get a 110v 3/4hp motor or a VFD to go 110v to 220v 3-phase. I know the VFD would give me variable speeds without moving belts that much, but for someone who never worked a lathe before would it be worth it? Which way would you go? Thanks.


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## brt (May 31, 2012)

I'd go with a VFD. In fact, I intend to, as part of CNC-fying my PM 1236. I'm basically going to apply most of what I see on my CNC mill (a square column from Tom Spada @ IHCNC) to the lathe. That's also what Tom recommended when I asked him about it.


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## Splat (May 31, 2012)

CluelessNewB said:


> My vote is for the VFD also.   You get variable speed and as a bonus 3 phase motors are dead simple, unlike single phase they have no capacitors to go bad and no starting switch.  They are very reliable and typically run smoother.  You should look for a sensorless vector drive like a Teco  JNEV-101-H1 (115V in) or Teco N3-201-CS (230V in) or Teco JNEV-201-H1 (230V in) other brands are available and work fine but these are the ones I know and the price is reasonable.   The JNEV 1hp drives run about $131 and the N3 $177 plus shipping online. Here is one source that I have used: http://dealerselectric.com/default.asp   Check the FLA (Full Load Amps) rating of the motor, make sure the VFD you purchase is rated at least that high, biggger is fine.



Thank you guys. Clueless, thanks for that link! That company is about 20mins away from me! :thumbzup: The prices are roughly what I'd pay for a good 110v motor anyway so looks like a VFD it shall be!  Thanks again.


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## burnrider (May 31, 2012)

Has anyone else tried one of the many KB electronics VFD's. 

I'm powering up the drill press at the moment with a 3 phase 1 hp motor. I didn't know a VFD provided a reverse mode as a bonus. Currently, I bench tested it, went ooh and ahh, then went back to work on installation. Took pics, and it looks like a great plug and play- mostly cuz' the 1-800 tech department is on the spot with information to get the right product for your specific use and motor type.

The VFD delivered from FLA to west coast was $143. I bought, cleaned and lube bearings on a 1 hp Century electric motor from Ebay for $55 delivered. I can't vouch for long time use, but I did find some happy users on the PM website. 

I will post pictures, and parts added to finish up. There is a need for fan cooling unless you use a TENV motor for extended use. The total conversion was about $200. I started to post until the website was blipping like the old black and white TV.

Excellent project for those of us w/ limited circuit board experience, because you need none.
It's about a 6 X 6 X 6 unit due to the huge heat sink. The plastic box housing the SPDT switch for fwd/stop/rev and 5K pot for speed control is mounted on the press next to main power switch. (Using 110 volts for primary power.)

I'd recommend checking on other vendors mentioned here. The VFD is more quality and affordable than a few years ago.


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## jumps4 (May 31, 2012)

let me know what you decide on for extra cooling I have read that is an issue for lathes or mills on long runs at low settings. I'm thinking about a sheet metal enclosure around the motor with a 110v fan in the top, it will turn on any time the vfd is on.
steve


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## PurpLev (May 31, 2012)

I had a 110v motor on my old lathe, and now am running a same HP 3-phase motor on my current lathe, motor for motor I must say that the 3 phase motor is smoother, quieter, and seems more robust than the 110 single phase motor by far. using a VDF I did not have to readapt any new motor to the current lathe + replacing the pullies (which was a PITA doing on my first lathe when I swapped the AC to DC motor). control wise the VFD is great, and can give you VS when needed as well. I am using a 110v IN to 3phase 220V out VFD (FM50-101) and am glad I went that route this time around - so much easier, and I got to use the original motor


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## Splat (May 31, 2012)

Guys, I figured I'd post this in this thread...Maybe if I wasn't a lathe beginner I'd be able to realize the answers but alas, I'm just a beginner. So before I get a vfd for my Heavy 10 I better ask these questions, please.

When you're using a VFD on a manual lathe how do you know what speed you're at?  What about belt/cone changes... do you leave it on the middle cone or still use different cones depending what material and process you're doing?


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## burnrider (May 31, 2012)

jumps4 said:


> let me know what you decide on for extra cooling I have read that is an issue for lathes or mills on long runs at low settings. I'm thinking about a sheet metal enclosure around the motor with a 110v fan in the top, it will turn on any time the vfd is on.
> steve



I've got a fan ordered. KB electronics has a diagram of a 100 cfm fan mounted under the motor which appears to be open on both ends for cooling. They show no enclosure, but the motor is mounted vertically, so the fan underneath works perfect.

Purplev,
The VFD does the same for me. This motor happened to be the same frame as my Baldor 1 hp. It will accept the same 4 step pulley as well. A good solution if the VFD works as advertised. This is a real nice improvement for a drill press, lathe or the band saw. I still favor a DC tread mill power, but VFD technology is a great second choice.

Anyone using one of these for rpm reading?


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## DMS (Jun 1, 2012)

Splat said:


> Guys, I figured I'd post this in this thread...Maybe if I wasn't a lathe beginner I'd be able to realize the answers but alas, I'm just a beginner. So before I get a vfd for my Heavy 10 I better ask these questions, please.
> 
> When you're using a VFD on a manual lathe how do you know what speed you're at?  What about belt/cone changes... do you leave it on the middle cone or still use different cones depending what material and process you're doing?



If it is the original motor (or at least the same speed as the original motor), then look at the faceplate value for the pulleys you are set at (say you the faceplate reads 1200 rpm), then look at your VFD. If it is set up to display Hz, then at 60 Hz the lathe will be running at about 1200rpm, at 40 Hz it will be 2/3 of that, or around 800rpm, 30Hz = 600rpm, 6hz = 120rpm. 

You can also set up most VFDs to be direct reading (in rpm), but if you are switching pulleys, I'm not sure how that would work out...

If it's an older motor you should be careful running at really low frequency for long periods. I hear the motors can heat up.


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## Hawkeye (Jun 1, 2012)

I have a laser tach, but I added a MachTach to my shared VFD installation. Take a look at: http://www.machtach.com/

It's sold as a kit and is very easy to assemble. I'm using the Hall Effect sensors with mine. A VFD with a tach display built into the control head is about as easy as it gets to set cutting speed.


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## Rbeckett (Jun 1, 2012)

If I had my druthers i'd ruther have a vfd.  That way when you get another machine or two you will have a much broader selection of available machines to choose from and can push for better deals since the three phase stuff is harder to sell to a home owner or hobbyist.  It will also help keep your elec bill out of the stratosphere and provide you with access to higher horsepower equipment and infinitely adjustable speed with little or now torque loss.  So, if it were me I would invest in a phase converter with VFD and look to the future when your shop is bigger and has more equipment, you wont regret going that way, trust me...
Bob


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## PurpLev (Jun 1, 2012)

Anyone using one of these for rpm reading?


View attachment 37155

	

		
			
		

		
	
[/QUOTE]

I have one of those. I used it when I had my previous lathe with the DC motor and KB controller. I used it at first to get some readings at different pulley settings, and it's kept in the toolbox ever since as I could guesstimate the RPM for my needs based on RPM at 100% and the current pot setting. it works well, simple to use, and not expensive (off of ebay)

SPLAT: Same goes for your question - even with VFD, I'll still use the pulleys (me personally, I know others dont) to get to nominal speeds and keep VFD at 100% output so I basically follow the readings on the lathe speed chart (since using factory motor and pulleys) and if during work, I need to slow things down, I'll use the VFD to temporarily match the current need. but otherwise I'll try to keep it at 100% rate.


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## Splat (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank you, guys. Guess I'll be getting a vfd today (hopefully). Pro'lly go for the Teco/Westinghouse JNEV-101-H1.


Hawkeye, FWIW I went to Machtach's site and they're stating sales of the Machtach's are suspended att.


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## Splat (Jun 1, 2012)

PurpLev said:


> SPLAT: Same goes for your question - even with VFD, I'll still use the pulleys (me personally, I know others dont) to get to nominal speeds and keep VFD at 100% output so I basically follow the readings on the lathe speed chart (since using factory motor and pulleys) and if during work, I need to slow things down, I'll use the VFD to temporarily match the current need. but otherwise I'll try to keep it at 100% rate.



Ah, isn't there supposed to be a plate on the cone cover listing the speeds? I think that might be helpful to me.  Gotta find one now. Thanks PurpLev.


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## burnrider (Jun 1, 2012)

Another Tread mill motor guy? 
Having done the DC route, was it worth the trouble of fabrication for DC power? / Or does the VFD rule because they have become so efficient and easy to install??

Don



PurpLev said:


> Anyone using one of these for rpm reading?
> 
> 
> View attachment 37155



I have one of those. I used it when I had my previous lathe with the DC motor and KB controller. I used it at first to get some readings at different pulley settings, and it's kept in the toolbox ever since as I could guesstimate the RPM for my needs based on RPM at 100% and the current pot setting. it works well, simple to use, and not expensive (off of ebay)

SPLAT: Same goes for your question - even with VFD, I'll still use the pulleys (me personally, I know others dont) to get to nominal speeds and keep VFD at 100% output so I basically follow the readings on the lathe speed chart (since using factory motor and pulleys) and if during work, I need to slow things down, I'll use the VFD to temporarily match the current need. but otherwise I'll try to keep it at 100% rate.[/QUOTE]


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## PurpLev (Jun 1, 2012)

burnrider said:


> Another Tread mill motor guy?
> Having done the DC route, was it worth the trouble of fabrication for DC power? / Or does the VFD rule because they have become so efficient and easy to install??
> 
> Don
> ...


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## jumps4 (Jun 1, 2012)

I have been following this and all the info is very good
I would like to add for the mach3 cnc lathe users that the machtach is not for threading in mach3 and will not send a pulse to the mach3 unless modified
I got caught by another company with a usb tach that displays in mach3 it works for a display but will not send the required pulse for threading.
a little off topic 
steve


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## burnrider (Jun 1, 2012)

PL,
I think that was a great answer. I love my shop, but I still want to put retired time on the dirt bike. At 59, if I can still rail the EXC on single track, this is the time to do it. My best friends have pushed it from ages 70 to 78 years of age. The good days are reserved for the fewer days we can ride in the future, the shop makes up the time balance.

If the VFD increases leisure time, it's got real value for all of us.




Greg's 70, still does 40 hard trail miles most days


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## Rbeckett (Jun 1, 2012)

burnrider said:


> PL,
> I think that was a great answer. I love my shop, but I still want to put retired time on the dirt bike. At 59, if I can still rail the EXC on single track, this is the time to do it. My best friends have pushed it from ages 70 to 78 years of age. The good days are reserved for the fewer days we can ride in the future, the shop makes up the time balance.
> 
> If the VFD increases leisure time, it's got real value for all of us.
> ...



I just sold my YZ250 2 stroke.  Hated to do it but this thing they put in my arm for dialysis is too fragile to take a chance on hitting a branch or falling down on a high speed off camber railer into a flat top.  Sure do miss it too, that and scuba diving.  I am cleared to dive, but take too many hard narcotics to attempt that.  Don't wanna die any sooner than I am supposed to already...
Bob


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## PurpLev (Jun 1, 2012)

burnrider said:


> PL,
> I think that was a great answer. I love my shop, but I still want to put retired time on the dirt bike. At 59, if I can still rail the EXC on single track, this is the time to do it. My best friends have pushed it from ages 70 to 78 years of age. The good days are reserved for the fewer days we can ride in the future, the shop makes up the time balance.
> 
> If the VFD increases leisure time, it's got real value for all of us.
> ...



that is awesome! always wanted to be able to do these things - but already have so many hobbies that take up every second that I don't have ... 

but you nailed it - whatever increases leisure time got a real value!

FWIW I find KB controllers most excellent for their purpose - had 2 of them myself (still have 1 left). just have to use them for the right purpose, and sometimes consider the alternatives.


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## burnrider (Jun 1, 2012)

> I just sold my YZ250 2 stroke. Hated to do it but this thing they put in my arm for dialysis is too fragile to take a chance on hitting a branch or falling down on a high speed off camber railer into a flat top. Sure do miss it too, that and scuba diving. I am cleared to dive, but take too many hard narcotics to attempt that. Don't wanna die any sooner than I am supposed to already...



Sometimes the risk isn't worth it. Do what you have to- more important not to waste time.

Thanks for members posting feedback on KB VFD, Should offer a choice for those looking for versatility on their equipment.


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## Splat (Jun 1, 2012)

Just picked up my NEV-101-H1 today from Dealers Ind. Equipment. Nice guys. Answered my questions and even better, only %3 sales tax! 3 year warranty on these is nice too. Family comes first so pro'lly won't get it done until Monday.


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## SamIAm (Jun 2, 2012)

Splat said:


> Just picked up my NEV-101-H1 today from Dealers Ind. Equipment. Nice guys. Answered my questions and even better, only %3 sales tax! 3 year warranty on these is nice too. Family comes first so pro'lly won't get it done until Monday.


 Good for you I think you will be happy with the results of a VFD setup.

Like some of the other post I would agree on. I too have several Treadmill Motor setups on several of my machines. Drill press & Mini mill.
got most of it for free. (can't beat free) and though it does work. its just no comparison to the VFD imho.

if I had to do it all over agin knowing what I know now? I would go the VFD route. But not after having tried the free route first!

Best!
Sam


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## burnrider (Jun 7, 2012)

Sniper,
so you were DC and went to AC?


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## SamIAm (Jun 7, 2012)

burnrider said:


> Sniper,
> so you were DC and went to AC?



Drill press:
Started out Ac, I converted to Treadmill mtr and treadmill controller DC setup... Still use it.

Band Saw: 
Started out Ac, I converted to Treadmill mtr and treadmill controller DC setup... Still use it.

Taig Mill Cnc'd 
Started out Ac, I converted to Treadmill mtr with a Dart contrioller Still use it.

Atlas Lathe: 
Started out Ac setup, I converted to the VFD setup.


Both my Drill press and Bandsaw have modified circuits to allow me to startup at the last speed used.
The Taig since it uses the Dart controller I can Reverse on the fly.
Sam


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## burnrider (Jun 7, 2012)

Maybe you can post some pics for us, the newer (older inexperienced) guys- down the road anyway.

Thank you


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## jumps4 (Jun 7, 2012)

my next mill I'm going to cnc i want to go vfd 3 phase it's going to be a zx45 clone. If any of you have this mill would you go direct belt drive or use the existing gear drive and overdrive the motor with the vfd. I'm wanting more top speed for aluminum cutting and the top speed of 1600 for the smaller endmills i use is too slow.
  my 9x20 hf lathe i never converted to dc because the speeds available were fine with me except for threading. there was no way i could learn single point threading with even the lowest speed available on the lathe. so i installed a dc treadmill motor behind the lathe with a belt i can easily remove without doing anything to the present lathe setup this with the lathes own speed reduction made threading easy. I never disengage the halfnut and i use the forward/stop/reverse switch i wired to the motor to change direction to make the next pass. now i can finally cut threads without the fear of crashing the lathe.
steve


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## jumps4 (Jun 7, 2012)

oh another note if you use replys that have no and nc contacts you can wire the dc motor to brake to an instant stop and not coast.  I can find the diagram if anyone is interested but what it does is short the motor wires together in the stop position.
steve


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## SamIAm (Jun 7, 2012)

burnrider said:


> Maybe you can post some pics for us, the newer (older inexperienced) guys- down the road anyway.
> 
> Thank you



Were you referring to pics of my other equipment?


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## burnrider (Jun 7, 2012)

Yes, the VFD and tread mill motor setups so others can see the fabrication involved. I think several DC motor guys said they thought VFD was easier and comparable to the tread mill motor. I was wondering if the lathe application of DC would be the most practical use- or does VFD still win out. 

Gives the hobby shop guys access to some info for setting up a system either way.


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## SamIAm (Jun 8, 2012)

burnrider said:


> Yes, the VFD and tread mill motor setups so others can see the fabrication involved. I think several DC motor guys said they thought VFD was easier and comparable to the tread mill motor. I was wondering if the lathe application of DC would be the most practical use- or does VFD still win out.
> 
> Gives the hobby shop guys access to some info for setting up a system either way.


 Burnrider,
I can take some pics but I think what you are asking is the DC version the best version...?

I went the Dc version because treadmills are cheap to find. ;lots of free parts. the motor the controller. heck even some wire and switches.

As far as the mounting this is entirely up to the project at hand with my Drill press I found I had most of the parts I needed right in my own shop.
I even added a fan for those long drilling operations. (Ill provide pics tomorrow?). I also added a pot to allow the controller to start up the treadmill motor
at any given speed..

Typical treadmill controller won't let you start the motor up at say any speed more then 10% (guessing) 
The addition of the pot. allows you to by pass this safety feature. (just a work around).
 Imagine jumping on your treadmill and it instantly ramps up to 8 mph! ("not good")
But for your drill press or band say or sander etc... this is desirable. I can add schematics too

But considering the fact most tools come with an ac motor its my opinion the VFD setup trumps the treadmill option. 

Cons of the treadmill: (and in no order)
a: you will most definitely have to come up with a mounting solution Treadmill motors aren't typical NEMA ready
b: cooling might be necessary so cooling considerations might be part of the build 
c: even though most read mill motors might say .5-1.5 HP on the name plate. The controller isn't going to deliver... 
A replacement controller might be necessary. Big $$
d: Pulley considerations? most treadmill motors employ a shaft witha thread on pulley. 

Pros. of the treadmill:
a:If you can find a treadmill most of the parts are their Wire, the motor and the controller. 
b: its a fun project to undertake.
c: bragging rights?

VFD: pros.
a: VFD controllers can get expensive. but depending on your needs/applications you might just find their affordable. (from what I found they more affordable than DC controllers)
b: Most likely if your considering a VFD setup then you probably already know you need a motor. 3 Phase mtrs are pretty cheap. and easy to find. and NEMA compliant.
meaning you most likely won't need to buy a pulley or find an alternant mounting solution. as well as perhaps a cooling solution either.
c: depending on the controller Fwd, Reverse, jog and braking are pretty stock for most low end controllers. they do some amazing things right out of the box.

VFD cons:
a: I have read many have had wiring challenges. imho anyone with some good and safe sense could do the wiring. I'll add since they are 110/220/440/3 phase
(disclaimer coming...)I would recommend you consult with an electrician when in doubt. as for Me? Im no electrician. I did all my own wiring and feel as though no electrician could have done much better. (no offense to any electricians  )
b: your not going to find one at your local sears or home depot. so if it breaks down you will have some down time. getting parts.


Im sure to have missed lots of pros & cons. and will add as they come to mind.

Sam


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## burnrider (Jun 8, 2012)

Problem with tread mill applications is the controller. Ebay has pages of them, needing some modification for shop use. Waaay too much information. Those of us w/ no circuit experience could set it up with some help from a local e-whiz. Next best option is the commercial VFD for AC or DC use. Then you have to learn how to use it and regulate speed for cutting.  Safe motor loading is likely the next concern (already addressed here). That's where the VFD w/ readout panel is good. 

Thanks to sniper & Papaseven for the info.


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