# Van Norman School.....



## Tamper84 (Nov 13, 2012)

Well with all of this talk about vn on here I'd figure I'd ask about them. Only heard of them on here. What's different from them and say a Cincinnati? Or a bridge port? Newb question I know, just don't beat me too badly lol. 

Thanks,
Chris


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 13, 2012)

I consider both the Van Normans and (some of) the Cinncy mills to be an offshoot of the original Brown and Shapre design.
(http://archive.org/details/practicaltreati00cogoog)

The VN is a more is a very evolved design from a different "branch" of the mill ffamily tree than a Bridgeport.  I have never used a Cinncy, myself but many of them LOOK more like Van Normans.

Differences from Bridgeport:

Main difference to me: The VN has no Quill Z movement.  All up/down happens with the table
Next difference to me: Double Y movement points.  The RAM and the table move in/out on most VN models.  
Next difference to me: VNs come ready to Horz mill out of the box.  And even heavier cuts are possible this way.  Bridgeports often need 90 degree heads to do this and can only take smaller cuts.

I think Van Norman are gaining popularity because of the mill-power-per-dollar formula is very high.  Used VNs are cheap and even a small Van Norman can take a cut so deep it would make a Bridgeport shudder and leap (if not stall outright).

However, if you live to make lots of tiny cuts or you need to drill a lot of angled holes into a work piece that needs to be bolted flat for some reason - a Bridgeport is what you want.


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## Tamper84 (Nov 13, 2012)

Thank you for the information. But I have never seen a van Norman in person. How do the compare size wise to a Bridgeport? And besides there being no quill feed, are there any other down sides to them? I know I keep bringing up a Bridgeport, but that's about all I have been around. 

Thanks,
Chris


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 13, 2012)

Here is a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-e_d9L7O2M

You should search for a few more - to get an idea of the setups.  Really the differences come down to setup in my mind.  But if you want a Drill with some milling ability - you need a Bridgeport.  The VN is an "old school" mill.

A Van Norman carries its weight a little lower, I think.  But the real rigidity comes from the cutter head being RIGHT ON the Ram and bolted up tight - I know as I just had to 'persuade' one loose.  The surfaces areas of contact areas between the moving parts are larger - this results in stability, rigidity, and big cuts with low hp needed.


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## Tamper84 (Nov 14, 2012)

Thank you!!! I appreciate it!!

Thanks,
Chris


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## dave (Nov 27, 2012)

One advantage to a VN is the height
I was on a Bridgeport kick for a while until I realized it would be to tall for my basement
The VN 12 was not only shorter but has horizontal and vertical milling capability ! 
I love mine, the machine is solid as a rock and way more machine then I will probably ever
need
If you can pick one up for $500 to $800 depending on tooling
It could be the last machine you need
And they look cool as well !


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## Tamper84 (Dec 19, 2012)

Thanks Dave!!! Sorry i didnt see your post earlier. Height is my problem as well. How tall are they overall?

Thanks,
Chris


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## HMF (Dec 19, 2012)

With the original large motor on top, I would estimate about 6 feet to 6 and a half feet.


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## Tamper84 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thank you Nelson!! That will fit perfectly!

Thanks,
Chris


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## HMF (Dec 20, 2012)

I only have 84" (7 feet) of headroom in my shop. I know this because I framed the walls. The #12 fits. It's a little taller than me and I'm 6'2".​


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## Tamper84 (Dec 20, 2012)

Same that I have 7 feet. Now I just have to finish it off, and buy some machines. 

Thanks,
Chris


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## Tamper84 (Mar 1, 2013)

Ok since I am filling my shop up, a van Norman is on my list. (Hopefully lol). So lets say you have a hole to bore in a part. How deep could you go with a bore? Either in horizontal or vertical mode? So in essence what is the table travel?

thanks,
Chris


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## Wilde Racing (Mar 1, 2013)

I have a VN 12 but I have yet to use it. I think it is around 12 inches total which would include all tooling and fixtures. This little fact is really the biggest draw back in my mind. Once you mount a rotary table and place an end-mill you don't have much room to work in. I was even thinking of ways to modify the ram or chop the knee to increase the room.


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## Grandtools (Apr 12, 2013)

They did make Van Normans with quill feed. It was an option with a #16, and standard on a 1RQ-22. It's a real nice feature with a #30 taper and power feed. I use a 1RQ 22 myself and am quite happy with it.


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## Cal Haines (Apr 12, 2013)

Grandtools said:


> They did make Van Normans with quill feed. It was an option with a #16 ...


The No. 16 was a redesign of the No. 12 and was not available with quill feed.  The next round of redesigns produced the 16M, 16L and 16S.  The 16M is essentially a redesign of the No. 16 and the direct descendant of the No. 12.  The 16S had a different ram and a quill with power feed.  The 16L used the same ram as the 16L but had the same cutter-head as the 16M.

There was an odd little machine called the 1-V that was essentially a No. 12 with a vertical head.  I know of 3 in Europe but none have turned up in the US.




_Cal_


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## Largo (Jan 18, 2014)

In addition  to the 1RQ and the #16 with the quill option, there was also the 2RQ and the monstrous 3RQ.  I have a 2RQ and it tips the scales at around 4,100#.  The 3RQ is somewhere north of 6,000#.  These machines are capable of generating several pounds of chips per minute.  My 2RQ only has 5hp on the main spindle, but with 50 taper tooling, I've used a 6" diameter multi-carbide insert face mill to hog 1/4" off the thickness of a 6" wide piece of 1018 at 2-3" per second.  Virtually no chatter.

If you ever have the chance to see one, the 5R (a non-quill machine) is probably the largest production mill that was ever produced.  20hp spindle with either 50 or 60 taper tooling (yes, there is such a thing as 60 taper - drawbar is either 1-1/8 or 1-1/4" diameter vs. the 1" of the 50) with up to a 96" table and topping out well over 20,000#. There were probably fewer than fifty of these beasts made.  I had a chance to buy one with two pallet loads of tooling five years ago for $2k.  Been kicking myself ever since.


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## toag (Jan 20, 2014)

http://brodieauctions.com/index.php/auction-schedule/details/7-thiry-machine-company-inc

5r at that auction.  as well as a 24 ge shaper... if only I had a pole barn with a slab


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## Reeltor (Nov 20, 2014)

I'm a new member looking through some older threads.  I have a VN 22L and can't say enough good things about it.  3hp spindle motor with a NMTB 50 taper, separate 1-1/2 hp motor driving power feed on all three axes with controls on the front and left side of the mill.  I've chickened out on the big cuts long before reaching what the mill can do.  These mill are compact and easily fit into a garage with plenty of head room.  If you're in the market for a mill and come across one be sure to give it a look.

Mike


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