# What's the point???



## kevinismo (May 10, 2021)

I tried to use TouchDRO for two years and the thing never worked right. One of the scales just kept jumping all over the place. Yuriy replaced the board and even reprogrammed it and it still wouldn't work. Now out of the left field I'm told that the scale is bad and I need to replace it. Somehow I don't believe that. If TouchDRO can't even read the scales right, what's the point? I feel like I was unpaid beta tested for his hobby project that was never finished. Why would anybody use this when you can get a better DRO from eBay for less money? I don't care about touch screen or any of the "features". I not once used his point system or tools. They just clutter the screen and the speaker button just beeps at you instead telling your the position. All I need is to see X Y and Z position of my spindle in inches and millimeters. It's not even that much better on a 7" tabled that the EZ-View display. Unless somebody convinces me that there is something that TouchDRO can do and a real DRO cant I will throw the thing off a tall cliff and get a normal DRO.
Kev.


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## benmychree (May 10, 2021)

What do you REALLY think about it?


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## brino (May 10, 2021)

Hi Kev,

I understand that you are frustrated, but I don't think you're being fair.

I have no connection to Yuriy or his Touch-DRO system, but it is still in the running for a future DRO addition for my mill.

1) By all accounts I've seen here Yuriy has provided excellent customer support!

You yourself said:


kevinismo said:


> Yuriy replaced the board and even reprogrammed it



Yuiry was trying to work with you in your original thread asking you to try different settings and provide the results.
Heck, he even offered for you to send him the scale so that he can debug it and he made you the offer that he'd pay shipping if his board was to blame!

Good luck getting that kind of support from any ebay/amazon/alibaba bought DRO!


2) You continue to use very derogatory using terms like "real DRO", "wasted money" and "no support".
This comes off as just your frustration and anger showing thru.

If you really cannot see the point of the Touch-DRO system then why did you buy one anyway?
Maybe it's time to move on to something else.

I am sure you could find buyers for the parts you have to reclaim some of your money.
It appears to me that you have just one bad scale that needs to be replaced to have a great system.


3) How is this thread any better or different than your final post in your other thread here:
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/problem-with-defective-board.92655/post-852805


Yes this is the friendly machinist forum, however that is a two way street!

-brino


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## markba633csi (May 10, 2021)

I have to ask the same question as Brino- why not just replace the one scale?
-Mark


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## ycroosh (May 10, 2021)

Kevin,
I get that you are frustrated, and I'm not going to try to talk you from tossing TouchDRO over the cliff (although do it responsibly. Lithium batteries are an environmental hazard and can even start a wildfire). 

Almost once a week I get an email or a Facebook message along the lines of "I built/bought a TouchDRO unit and the display is unstable ... TouchDRO suck and I will never use it again". I have a lot of sympathy for those people. It can be very frustrating when things don't work, but how iGaging scales work is out of my control. Most people who use them with TouchDRO understand the limitations. Capacitive scales are more problematic in general, and since the protocols are proprietary and input parameters are not documented, what you get with a capacitive scale adapter is my best guess. Glass scales don't have these problems because they use a standard protocol with well-documented input requirements. Out of several hundred adapters from glass scales, I had a single customer who had a problem with connectivity, but he lives in the next town from me and I was able to help with the problem. It ended up being a "pilot error".

This is the hobby project that I do because it's fun and challenging, and I get to meet really cool people along the way. I sell pre-assembled adapters, which helps me cover the R&D costs and lets me buy new toys without tapping into the family budget. I'm perfect and I don't know everything, but I do my best to do right by my customers. What really frustrates me is when someone runs into an issue that is completely out of my control (either a scale is flaky, they messed up a scratch-built adapter, or their Chinese tablet has issues) and runs straight for the "this is not a real DRO". You're right, TouchDRO is not a "real DRO". Real DROs (the ones you can find on eBay) are based on a design that was cutting edge in the early '80s, and the more expensive ones are finally catching up with the '90s. TouchDRO App sort of looks like a DRO, but I'm not attempting to emulate one. Instead, I'm trying to make a modular and open system that can be used with most types of scales, can be built at home out of readily available components [following detailed instructions on my website and using free firmware that I update a few times per year and a free app that doesn't track what you do or flood you with ads]. I even intentionally designed the app to use a basic text-based protocol (and documented it) so people can design their own scale interface hardware. Since I'm not constrained by physical buttons and a small screen, like a real DRO, would be, I can make TouchDRO change the user interface based on the given task or configuration. You can have a 2-axis lathe DRO and with three clicks switch to 4-axis + tachometer mill display. Since a tablet has huge amounts of persistent memory, I don't need to have a "memory for 100 sub-datums" and instead can give you the ability to create multiple sets of stored coordinates that you can add and recall with a single tap. On top of that, I can display those stored coordinates in graphical format and make the thing select the one that you are moving towards, so you don't even need to touch the screen when drilling a series of holes, etc. I can do things like a basic calculator built into every field, or give you the ability to step-and-repeat a complex pattern with a few button clicks. Another thing that is not like a real DRO is that you can get updates regardless of how long ago you built or bought your DRO unit. The latest version of the firmware will work just fine with the very first revision of the hardware, and the upcoming version of the app is backward compatible with tablets that were sold at the end of 2011. 

Yuriy


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## C-Bag (May 10, 2021)

So what would be the most stable scales that would be compatible with the TouchDRO? I have the iGaging scales and it’s more than just .001 blinking. I love the interface but if I use my rapid traverse on the X drive it looses its place. It also looses its place when I shut down. When I’m just doing regular stuff the readout on the scale on the screen will flash some big number then go back to the original. Once that big number stayed, so I’ve gotten to where I don’t trust it. When I was using the igaging heads they would to that .001 flicker but never flashed some big random number.

I’m not mad, I’m more frustrated with my lack of electronic skill. And I’m not wanting to pile on and know you are a busy guy and it’s more than likely something I’ve not set up right.

I bought my DRO adapter from you a while back, it was the first 3d printed case you did and it was a complete unit already  assembled. I use a Samsung TabA Android tablet and the scales are EZ View Igaging. I’ve checked the power supply wall wort and cable and don’t see any indication of power interruption. I’ve also tried shutting down the WiFi and try to disconnect from any outside service but not sure I’ve actually achieved that. I’m more used to PC’s than phone tech.

Update: I just found your post on EZ View scales and it nailed EXACTLY what I’ve been going through. So I get it, they are a lost cause/bad design. What should I replace them with that are simple/inexpensive/reliable and plug n play with TouchDRO?


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## ycroosh (May 10, 2021)

Hmm, it's hard to say what exactly is happening. There are a few possibilities.
When TouchDRO is used with iGaging scales, it simply passes the reading from the scale (Chinese capacitive scales keep track of the position internally). There is no mechanism for the TouchDRO adapter to lose the position since it doesn't "remember" it. I think you are describing at least three different problems, so let me try to separate them:

The momentary jumps that return to normal are pretty common. If you are interested in the details, look at the "Momentary Large Jumps" in my last blog post:  Common iGaging EZ-View DRO Problems. All iGaging scales do that, but it can also be caused by really bad noise or bad connection. In your case I wouldn't call it normal, so let's assume this is a real problem.

Scale losing its place sounds strange. I haven't seen this happen, but there are a few different places where this can be coming from. The worst-case scenario is a full reset of the scale. iGaging scales don't lose their position immediately after you disconnect them from power. It takes a few seconds to as much as a few minutes before the scale resets to 0. To verify this, plug your scale into the original display, note the position, unplug it, wait for a couple of seconds, and plug it back in. The readout should not change when you plug the scale in. If this is the case, the reset would require a momentary reversal of the power supply voltage. That can happen when you have a giant ground loop (i.e. machine's body ground is many feet away from the TouchDRO adapter ground). You can fix this by isolating scale frames from the machine, but try powering the TouchDRO adapter from a battery pack (or even from the tablet via a USB port) temporarily and see if there is any change. 

Scale permanently losing the position can be due to a reset as well. Older scales did that when a stray glitch threw off the data clock, but I haven't seen/heard of EZ-View scales doing that (the reading head seems to have logic that resets the clock after a short timeout). 

Scale losing its place when you shut down [the adapter, I presume] is normal. These are not absolute scales, so they keep track of the position by counting from the place where the scale was powered up. There is no harm from leaving the TouchDRO adapter running 24/7. It consumes less than 1W of electricity when active, and even less when idle. (if this is different from what your problem is, please let me know).

My guesses would be as follows (in the order of likelihood)
1. There is something wrong with the scale itself
2. There is a grounding problem or serious noise problem that creates large pulses in the cables
3. There is a connection problem between the scale and TouchDRO. Try plugging the scale into Y input and see if anything changes. I've seen very similar behavior once when there was a crack in the solder joint under the MicroUSB connector on the TouchDRO board.

in short, this is not normal. iGaging scales have a few issues, but once you start losing position, something has to be broken. If the scale is easy to remove and you'd be willing to send it to me, I can hook it to the scope and see if I can find any problems. If it's defective, I can swap it for a good one (I need bad scales for testing; good ones are easy to come by...). 

If you decide to upgrade the scales, pretty much any Chinese glass scales are going to be a huge step up. The difference between the very cheap ones and "mid-range" is in the electronics (better scales have better-built circuit board) and support. The glass and the "carriage" are all identical, and they all use the same LM339-based circuit. Cheap ones use single-sided through-hole PCB with one or two capacitors, while the better ones use a surface mount PCB with a few ceramic bypass capacitors and series resistors. In practice, I have noticed any difference in performance. 

Thank you
Yuriy


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## Winegrower (May 11, 2021)

kevinismo said:


> Unless somebody convinces me that there is something that TouchDRO can do and a real DRO cant I will throw the thing off a tall cliff and get a normal DRO.


I think if you don't understand hobby electronics, don't want to understand it and dig in, you should buy a commercial unit and quit grousing.


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## projectnut (May 11, 2021)

Winegrower said:


> I think if you don't understand hobby electronics, don't want to understand it and dig in, you should buy a commercial unit..



I would agree.  I'm not an electronics expert, and don't want the frustration of attempting to build and debug problems with a system made from several different sources.  For that reason I opted for a commercially built DRO.  All I had to do was read the instructions and install it.  It's been in place over 10 years and hasn't had a single problem.  Just keep in mind a quality commercial unit isn't going to be cheap.  They can easily cost several times what you paid for your TouchDRo setup.  Most quality units start in the neighborhood of $1,000.00 and go up from there.  Those with all the bells and whistles regularly go for $2,500.00 and up.

ON EDIT:  As an FYI there's currently a discussion on which DRO to purchase  on another "Professional" board.  There are quite a number of recommendations.  Just keep in mind the prices are considerably more than most hobbyists are willing to spend.


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## Asm109 (May 11, 2021)

Yuriy, it appears that you would be ahead of a lot of aggravation if you just said no to supporting capacitive scales.

You said yourself, the protocols are proprietary and you are trying to peek behind the curtain and taking your best guess.  
Guessing isn't good enough when the user is counting on your product for an accurate reliable reading.


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## markba633csi (May 11, 2021)

Probably would save Yuriy some headaches to add a disclaimer to the website concerning various issues reported with capacitive scales

-Mark


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## ycroosh (May 11, 2021)

Asm109 said:


> Yuriy, it appears that you would be ahead of a lot of aggravation if you just said no to supporting capacitive scales.
> 
> You said yourself, the protocols are proprietary and you are trying to peek behind the curtain and taking your best guess.
> Guessing isn't good enough when the user is counting on your product for an accurate reliable reading.


I have thought about that many times and almost pulled the plug earlier this year. In order of decreasing headache it goes something like this for me:
1. People who attempt to build an adapter from scratch. People do this to save money, but it often goes very wrong if this is the first project a person built. I get at least one of these every day. I plastered the site with all sorts of "here is hot you build this thing more reliably", but I often get emails from people who need help finding which part is a resistor.
2. People using iGaging scales with various jumping issues. I get one almost every week. Earlier I did the numbers and about 7% of iGaging adapter orders have at least one post-order contact. One interesting observation is that customers who ask questions before the order are a factor of magnitude more likely to have problems afterwards. I don't fully understand what exactly this data point means, though.
3. People using glass scales who bout a pre-assembled TouchDRO adapter. In five years I had a total of seven orders with ANY problems (two were caused by a failed voltage regulator, which could be a part defect or wrong power supply, the rest were scale-related).

in other words, you are right, I would have much less headache if I dropped the capacitive scales. The reason I haven't (yet) is that a lot of people of fixed income use these scales and decide to add TouchDRO at some point, and without a pre-assembled option they would need to scratch-build one, which leads to an even worse experience. Second, capacitive scales are sed a lot in poorer countries.  

This year I decided to do a "last hoorah" and switch to a more sophisticated adapter circuit with a more powerful processor. I don't want to completely hide issues, but there is more I can do with a CPU that has a hardware floating poting unit and more than 512 bytes of ram. If that doesn't change the trend, I will drop support of iGaging scales later this year. (in the sense that it will be only a DIY adapter option)

Regards
Yuriy


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## DavidR8 (May 11, 2021)

Props to you Yuriy for continuing to support the community!


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## kb58 (May 11, 2021)

So the OP continues to lob unhappy threads into the forum like grenades, hoping to what, give the manufacturer a bad reputation? If anything, it's doing the opposite. You've received a number of suggestions, which get ignore, which only make yourself look worse, instead of trying them and reporting back on the findings. At this point, suggest you pull up before your wings start clipping the trees.


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## Hozzie (May 11, 2021)

I am glad this thread came up.  Even though the initial post had a negative overall experience, I have been researching what DRO to get for a mill I just purchased.  This actually turned me on to the idea that I have the option to use a software based "head" with basically any (loose term) scale I wanted.   I am in the tech industry so I like the idea of the flexibility of a software solution.  The risk of course is if Yuriy gets hit by a bus we will lose support, but if it is working, hopefully for us home guys it will do what we need long into the future without much issue.  Worst case, we have scales and just have to buy another head.

I was never considering the cheap scales so that wasn't a concern.  I had planned on purchasing magnetic scales anyway so now that I have an idea of what is supported, I will just purchase the magnetic scales (probably ditron), the wireless DRO adaptor, and download the software.  

I understand everyone can't afford or just don't need the best of everything, but I have yet to find many happy with the cheapest thing they can find.  Hopefully this is a good balance.


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## ycroosh (May 11, 2021)

Hozzie said:


> I am glad this thread came up.  Even though the initial post had a negative overall experience, I have been researching what DRO to get for a mill I just purchased.  This actually turned me on to the idea that I have the option to use a software based "head" with basically any (loose term) scale I wanted.   I am in the tech industry so I like the idea of the flexibility of a software solution.  The risk of course is if Yuriy gets hit by a bus we will lose support, but if it is working, hopefully for us home guys it will do what we need long into the future without much issue.  Worst case, we have scales and just have to buy another head.
> 
> I was never considering the cheap scales so that wasn't a concern.  I had planned on purchasing magnetic scales anyway so now that I have an idea of what is supported, I will just purchase the magnetic scales (probably ditron), the wireless DRO adaptor, and download the software.
> 
> I understand everyone can't afford or just don't need the best of everything, but I have yet to find many happy with the cheapest thing they can find.  Hopefully this is a good balance.


Regarding "Yuriy gets hit by the bus" I have a contingency plan: two of my brothers and the wife have the keys to the code repository and their instructions are to open source everything. Hopefully, someone else will be able to support it (although I look both ways when crossing the road, just in case. ).

Regards
Yuriy


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## Superburban (May 11, 2021)

kb58 said:


> So the OP continues to lob unhappy threads into the forum like grenades, hoping to what, give the manufacturer a bad reputation? If anything, it's doing the opposite. .


It has turned me towards a touchdro. I have just started looking at getting a DRO, for the mill, and lathe. I had forgotten about Yuriy's products. After looking at his website, that is likely the direction I will go. Now thinking I will do both machines. and work through everything at once.


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## Garryloy (May 12, 2021)

I did my due diligence, and after learning about some of the less than ideal results, and some solutions, I chose to implement a TouchDRO on my hobby mill.  The end result for me?  A very affordable, accurate, and reliable DRO that has proven to be the best improvement I could possibly make to my mill.  I love it.  Was it plug and play? No.  I had to install caps inside my igaging scales (per user documentation ), add some braided metal shielding sleeving, and isolate the scales from the mill (I had this in mind when I designed the scale mounts) to resolve stability issues.  I knew it might require some tweaks to get it to work and I figured it was a good trade off for what I ended up with.  It was a calculated risk.  I'm so glad I had this option.  Thank you Yuriy.  I could not be happier with it.


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## ChazzC (Jul 30, 2021)

I'm a relative newcomer to DRO's on my Mini Mill (LMS 3990) and only added Yuriy's latest adapter about 6 weeks ago. However, I am very happy with the performance of the adapter with my iGaging Absolute Plus SS scales and with the TouchDRO application (running on a Galaxy Tab A 7"). I selected these scales as 1) I have a Mini Mill; 2) Although I liked the features and some of the mounting details of the LMS Magnetic Scale Kit, I did want to make some changes; 3) I liked what had I read and viewed about TouchDRO; 4) I had seen too many issues with the iGaging EZ-DRO scales. I have not had to add capacitors, replace cables or make any of the other modifications to the scales or my power connections that many have noted when using the aluminum EZ-DRO scales.

When I first installed my scales utilizing the included iGaging readouts, the 12" scale on my Z-Axis failed (random readings, poor response) after about a week. The cable connectors were OK, there did not appear to be any broken/loose connections on the pickup pcb and the readout itself was OK when checked with the other scales. Since this particular scale had been purchased over a year before, I just ordered a replacement, which was fine.

I switched to the TouchDRO system to get access to features that are not available with the individual readouts, and would not go back. Based on my hands-on experience and with Yuriy's extremely helpful responses to emailed questions and his obvious interest in being helpful, I would do it all again, even if I were to go with higher end scales.


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