# Problem with pm932m quickly resolved by Matt



## umahunter (May 7, 2018)

Well lil over a month ago the collet stop screw on my mill sheared off and my drawbar was stripped no problem called pm they sent me a new drawbar said didn't need collet screw turns out that screw was the only thing allowing me to use the mill without the screw you couldn't tighten the collet just spins so after doing several tests figured taper wasn't ground right needed to be replaced pm doesn't carry this part so had to come from the factory so over a month of emailing back and forth have a mill I can't use and I sold my other mill like 2 days before this all happened so finally today a box shows up from china with random freaking parts not the part to repair my machine  I need a new spindle and receive 2 handles a quill dro some electrical part couple face plates and an e stop button complete bs 








EDITOR'S NOTE:

Matt from PM resolved this guy's problem as quickly as he could, to the satisfaction of the OP.
This is not made abundantly clear from the tone of the OP's post, but it is, in fact, what happens.
On H-M, vendors who provide excellent service are treated fairly by our staff, and our members.


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## markba633csi (May 7, 2018)

Talk to Matt, he has a good rep for taking care of his customers


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## 7milesup (May 8, 2018)

Just curious... how do you know the spindle taper was incorrect and not the R8 collets themselves?  Maybe the mill is fine and the collets are bad?...


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## Eddyde (May 8, 2018)

Also, be sure all the screw is removed, if there is a little bump sticking out, it might prevent the collet from seating properly.
That damn screw was the first thing I removed on my mill...


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## Clock work (May 8, 2018)

In the very small off-chance there is some work-holding best practice missing from your repertoire (respectfully) maybe something in here might be useful now or in the long term. Good luck.

Preventing Collet Slip - Tormach


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## BFHammer (May 8, 2018)

Double check the length on your drawbar. It’s possible that the threaded end of your drawbar is bottoming out in the collet not allowing it to draw fully into the spindle.

On my PM932 I found that the drawbar was either just a few millimeters too long or the collets were a few mm too shallow.

I cut a small spacer to fit between the nut of the drawbar and the top of the quill.  Got me happily milling again although a new drawbar is on my to do list.

Good luck and let us know what happens.


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## Eddyde (May 8, 2018)

BFHammer said:


> Double check the length on your drawbar. It’s possible that the threaded end of your drawbar is bottoming out in the collet not allowing it to draw fully into the spindle.
> 
> On my PM932 I found that the drawbar was either just a few millimeters too long or the collets were a few mm too shallow.
> 
> ...


Makes sense, the collets were never being tightened fully in the first place, thus causing the set screw to shear off. Spindle replacement might not be necessary.


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## umahunter (May 8, 2018)

me and a friend who makes custom mold has several cnc machines and has also bought from pm and was looking at purchasing the same mill after seeing mine and wanting another manual mill tried multiple things. frankly recovering from surgery I wouldn't have been able to do it alone. the collets worked fine in  other mills. we used two different draw bars spacers reworked one draw bar etc and multiple r8 tools everything barely made any contact in the taper after blueing. there was a line about the half the  width of a pencil line of contact at the base of the taper.  you could crank a tool down so tight you'd need a big hammer to knock it loose and one turn of the draw bar would fall right out you could hammer a collet or whatever into the spindle with a dead blow and block of wood several times collet would fall right out . We chased all the threads ran taps through the collets trust me we did everything possible and then some and sent video to Matt trust me tearing apart and repairing a couple month old machine is the last thing I wanna do recovering from double back surgery


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## umahunter (May 8, 2018)

That's why we figured the collet screw sheared because that was the only thing allowing a collet to tighten after that you had to be able to hold anything to get it to tighten it was a lot of work and usually took two to get something to tighten we spent about 3 hours doing every test we could think of before figuring that's the problem a collet should have more than a couple percent engagement in a taper


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## Bob Korves (May 8, 2018)

It sounds like the drawbar may be too long or is otherwise bottoming out in the collet threads.  A quick check is to put a washer or three on the drawbar and try again and see how that works.  My drawbar for R8 collets engages the collets about 1", and that is just about the length of engagement limit.


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## umahunter (May 8, 2018)

Read above posts that was the first thing tried


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## Eddyde (May 8, 2018)

Yep looks like you ruled out all the other possibilities, it must be the spindle taper. I'd call PM and insist on speaking to Matt directly.


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## COMachinist (May 8, 2018)

My PM-932 pdf doesn’t even have a collet screw. I had to make a new drawbar from a piece of 1144 and single point the threads so it's like glass threading the collet. I can’t remember if the mill ever had a collet screw in the spindle. Where do you look to find the screw? I have never seen it.
CH


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## chiroone (May 8, 2018)

I own the 835s  and while I haven’t had any of the problems described above. I did do a quick inspection of the machine to the extent I could with this neat little tool from Harbor freight. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-62359.html

I was able to check in the spindle and see that the collet  screw was just in enough to allow the collet to slide in.  this is a neat little tool if you want to check in an area that you cannot normally access. Yes, it’s about 75 bucks, but it come in real handy


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## umahunter (May 8, 2018)

The other thing we noticed was odd was when tightening the draw bar it was binding up on something.  you could pull the draw bar from the machine and screw it into a collet silky smooth. But  the second you put them both in the machine it would bind up some like when there's grit or a dinged up thread which lead us to chasing all the threads running taps in the collets cleaning etc. running the draw bar back and forth in the collet with drill and socket and lots of oil so it was super smooth screwing together then once back in the machine it would bind up again lol it was infuriating I had my friend and my helper do it to make sure I wasn't trippen


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## umahunter (May 8, 2018)

COMachinist said:


> My PM-932 pdf don’t even have a collet screw. I had to make a new drawbar from a piece of 1144 and sigle point the threads so it like glass threading the collect. I can’t rember if the mill ever had a collet screw in the spindle. Where do you look to find the screw? I have never seen it.
> CH


 the collet stop screw is just a dog point set screw it you've never seen one it's just a set screw that's turned down on the end to fit in a slot etc. if your taper is correct it's like most machine tools and not needed because it's held tight by the taper itself. if it's a lil  loose it keeps the collet from spinning for just a second until it engages the taper if you go to the online manual there's a page on its location and how to adjust it


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## Cadillac (May 8, 2018)

If you blued a known good collet and only got a pencil line of contact that's your problem. That's why the set screw sheared. All torque was on the screw a pencil line of contact on a taper will not hold. The taper in the spindle needs to be ground to the correct taper. Maybe a reamer did you say it's a r8?


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## Cadillac (May 8, 2018)

As for your drawbar if they go together good off the machine. Then "bind" while trying to use in machine. First when you pull the drawbar out is their crude on the thread? Check alignment of drawbar centerline?


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## TomS (May 9, 2018)

Bent drawbar maybe?  Might explain why the drawbar and collets screw smoothly together out of the machine but bind up when in the machine.


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## Cadillac (May 9, 2018)

Bent drawbar would be easy to check. Just roll on a flat surface see if it wobbles. Their can be a little but should be minimal.


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## umahunter (May 14, 2018)

Still waiting apparently my parts were sent to someone else and I got his and he's gone on business so he can't send them. I was offered a refund and I can pay the difference for a bigger machine lol which does nothing for me. if I wanted the more expensive machine I would have done that in the first place. I ordered the machine and got everything setup so I would have an extra source of income while recovering from back surgery. besides what I saved since I'm self employed because that's something I could still do was sit at my lathe and mill and do small light stuff but since this happened I've lost out on extra income since I sold my other mill like 2 days before this all happened which left me screwed they ordered another spindle from the factory this is getting very old


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## Cadillac (May 14, 2018)

Look at the positive though! ****ty situation for sure. But they're working with you and you'll have a spare spindle. Since you know they're shipping one out. It sounds like a perfect opportunity for you to try and regrind the original. Alittle learning, alittle practice, you never know you could surprise yourself!


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## RJSakowski (May 15, 2018)

Considering, your first drawbar stripped  and the replacement drawbar threads with difficulty in the spindle, my guess is that the R8 socket was not machined correctly.  The draw bar is long enough that a slight bend would still allow it to screw into the collet but a misaligned R8 socket would prevent the drawbar from starting into the collet threads properly.  It would also be a prime suspect for the threads stripping.  Looking at your old posts, you have had this problem from day one.

I find that providing hard evidence of issues helps dramatically with getting speedy resolutions.  One bit of armament for you would be to measure runout of the R8 socket and/or a test pin mounted in the spindle.  I would measure the runout close to the face of the collet and several inches from the face.  If you have an angular misalignment, the runout should increase dramatically as you move away from the collet.

Since the machine is only five months old, if it were me, I would press for a replacement spindle shipped out with expedited shipping.  If they can't resolve the problem in a speedy manner, they should be shipping a new machine, picking up the shipping both ways.  PM ppears to have a good reputation in the forums that I visit.  I'm sure that they don't want to see their reputation tarnished.


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## RJSakowski (May 15, 2018)

BTW, it looks like the PM932  is the same as the Grizzly G0755.  I had to replace the set screw in the 755 as it had worked in with use, preventing collets from being seated.  I machined a dog point on a socket head cap screw so the point was properly positioned when the screw was fully seated.  This preventing the screw from moving inward and interfering with the collet.


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## qualitymachinetools (May 16, 2018)

I just want to comment, yes the customer has been waiting, but I have been trying like hell to get it resolved.

1. Had his machine for about 4 months, said he had a problem, said they think its the spindle. No problem, said I will send him a spindle, this was at the beginning of the month. I still dont know 100% if thats it, but a person I know from the forums was helping him, he said thats probably what it is, I never questioned it. Not worth it, would rather just fix the problem.
2. Spindle sent from the factory about 10 days later, should deliver 3-4 days. Not a big deal. He did not receive it, so he emailed me.
3. According to tracking that anyone can see, some problem with customs hold up, not sure of the delay, tracking changed after a couple days, on the way.
4. Delivered, said the parts were wrong. I emailed the people at the factory, they said no way, another shipment was sent to another customer the same day, his has no customs hold up so it was delivered 4/30. I have never had a problem with this factory before, they said it was fedex or customs that mixed them up. Either way, I don't know, it happened. Never heard from that other customer that he had the wrong parts, so I emailed him, no reply. Called and he said he was out on the road working, would check with his son. I did not hear back. Already ordered a new spindle, and on the way, the customer knows this and has that tracking.

 I also was also looking to have his spindle ground to fix the taper, I have a local place that can do that. But he did not have it out yet to send to me, so that was not an option.      Again, I was trying to get him going.

And the offer I made was to send it back and exchange towards another machine because he kept saying he was in dire need of a mill. I tried to have options. Or send it back for a refund if you arent happy. Thats fine too. Whatever you want. I'm easy.

A model I mentioned was the 833T. Stuff like this doesnt happen on machines from Taiwan. I had it in stock. But they cost more.

   Chinese machines are OK, Taiwan machines are great. To be honest, I wish I didn't have to sell Chinese machines. But people buy them because they are cheap. Every single day I am on them about quality. Every single day its something. The ones we have from China are a lot better than places who are not on them about quality, but China is China.      

Yes it is taking a lot longer than I wanted it to, but I am doing what I can to get it there. It sucks when I have to depend on others half way around the world, who knows who made the first mistake, who knows why the other customer will not get back to me.

I would not be happy either, it sucks, but the new one is almost there. It sucks as bad for me, I probably have 50 emails back and forth about a damn spindle that should be so easy, I send one email to order, they send me tracking, and delivered. But no, someone had to screw up somewhere, and this happened. The best part? I pay for 2 spindles. Its never their fault.

And I said I wanted the old spindle back, because I want to see what happened and try to prevent that in the future. Ill send it back and you can do what you want with it after I see it.   

I would post the tracking here, but it shows their personal addresses when you do track it, and I don't want to give that out. But he is free to do that if he would like.

Want to avoid all of this? My advice, buy one of our machines from Taiwan. If I didn't have to sell machines from China, my life would be a hell of a lot easier.


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## MarkM (May 16, 2018)

Your a straight shooter Matt.   Things are out of your control.  A bad day for a shift overseas and you get the brunt of it.  Sometimes patience is needed on the customers end to give you a chance to resolve things.  It s a hard place to be in in today s world.  Blown away by your honest response.  Good luck to both of you!


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## wrmiller (May 16, 2018)

qualitymachinetools said:


> Want to avoid all of this? My advice, buy one of our machines from Taiwan. If I didn't have to sell machines from China, my life would be a hell of a lot easier.



The worst part is the person who buys a cheap(er) Chinese machine and expects it to be the same quality level of the Taiwan machine. And then complains loudly/cries when it isn't. And it's all your fault Matt... 

Hope you have a better day today, and thanks for the explanation.


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## qualitymachinetools (May 16, 2018)

I have no problem with people expecting it to be right, even though its cheaper, I want it to be right too. But if its not, I do what I can to fix it, sometimes it takes a bit of time, like in this case. But its not a case of me sitting around and ignoring people or forgetting to order something (Like so many stories I hear about with some other machinery companies). Its just a case of what was in the last post.  If everything was right all the time, that would just be too easy, I'd be sitting on a beach somewhere a lot more often ha ha       All I can promise is that if there is a problem, it is taken care of. Maybe not overnight, but as fast as we possibly can, depending on others. Emailing the people at the factory 10 times a day isn't going to make that fedex plane move any faster. I wish I could do that.

    I deal with the made in China Price and wanting Made in Taiwan quality every day. Nothing to do with this customer, I just mean customers overall, the machines, and people from Taiwan are much more of a pleasure to deal with. There are a few things here and there but overall not much. And the customers who buy the machines from Taiwan normally only call to tell me how nice they are and they are glad they spent the extra money.


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## ch2co (May 16, 2018)

Matt
You probably have it listed, but how do I as a buyer know when I’m shopping on line which machine is from Taiwan  and which is from China?


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## qualitymachinetools (May 16, 2018)

If its from Taiwan, it will say Taiwan. If not, then its from China.       They are the only 2 choices, 95% of what you see out there is from China if it is from anyone else, most companies do not have the higher end machines from Taiwan, but we do have some. I am working on more, but its a slow process.    And the price is higher for sure


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## umahunter (May 16, 2018)

wrmiller said:


> The worst part is the person who buys a cheap(er) Chinese machine and expects it to be the same quality level of the Taiwan machine. And then complains loudly/cries when it isn't. And it's all your fault Matt...
> 
> Hope you have a better day today, and thanks for the explanation.


 Are you kidding me cries loudly it doesn't matter where the machine comes from without being able to tighten a collet it's a 2000 dollar  pile of metal that is essentially the main function of the machine I have been more than nice waiting on this part this has been going on for over a month and I have been more than understanding I don't expect it to be a Bridgeport but it should do it's main function which is hold a freaking endmill


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## qualitymachinetools (May 16, 2018)

You may want to re read what I wrote. I never said one time you lied.  I never said you were wrong.      I agreed you waited longer than you should have.  

Once it took a while I was trying to come up with ideas.    Post whatever you want but it’s all just what was said.  

I have no problem with you expecting it to be right.   It should have been.  You are absolutely right.  And I wish it was.  

  If it’s because I said I want it back I do want to see what’s not right in the spindle.    So I can try to avoid that happening again.  

I have no problem.  I get it you are frustrated.  I am too that it took a mo the to get you the parts.  

Don’t take my reply as a problem with you.  I was more agreeing with you that it was a problem and shouldn’t have taken that long but it did.


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## qualitymachinetools (May 16, 2018)

Like I said I do not disagree it should have been right from the beginning. And I wish it was.


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## umahunter (May 16, 2018)

You know this would have been ten times easier with a phone call instead of emailing back and forth.  was never even told my part had to come from the factory until a week went by and I asked where my part was and was told what do you mean it's only been a week it'll be another 7 to 10 days. again would have been easier with a simple phone call telling me what was going on I even have Greg my number more than once and said to call me anytime  im sorry I still deal with customers face to face or  over the phone  so stuff like this is avoided


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## Chuck K (May 16, 2018)

Sounds like a solid effort to me....**** happens.


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## PT Doc (May 16, 2018)

Is the labor covered under the warranty? Is this a user replaceable part?


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## pdentrem (May 16, 2018)

We have had issues with our suppliers and customers, whether domestic or overseas, and it is crazy how things work out and how long it can take. One time it took over 6 months just to get a correction on their supplied drawing! Naturally they want the parts right away, after waiting for 6 months! Oh well, one of the reasons I got out of wholesale/retail sales 20 years ago and got into production. No phones!


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## MarkM (May 16, 2018)

Umahunter I feel bad for you and I am sure everyone on this forum feels the same.  Even Matt.  I' ve never purchased a thing from Matt at Precision Matthews.  I truly believe they try at P.M.  Almost,  but came across a deal I Couldn  t refuse.  It s a hard place to be in for both of you.  Especially when it isn t in just the two of you involved here.  I hope in time things get ,resolved and a start to a relationship and one day you both can reflect and be on the other side.  I am sure I would be frustrated as well so don t worry about how you feel.  Again good,luck to both of you!!!


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## umahunter (May 16, 2018)

I've bought my vice and was very happy  mill was biggest purchase I searched around and liked the pm mill I purchased the mill got it all set up before my double back surgery plan was to use it as a source for extra income since I work for myself and had to save up to cover my bills while off I could still do small stuff to bring in extra income on the mill and lathe thing that screwed me was one i sold my other mill like 2 days before this happened and 2 nothing at all to do with any of this I found a tennis ball sized tumor under my labs leg that was cancerous so he had to have  2 mris and emergency leg amputation surgery to save his life and get everything as you imagine it wasn't  planned a cost a pretty penny and without a mill I lost money I could have made while off my regular job none of this is Matt s fault but this is where I'm coming from


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## MarkM (May 16, 2018)

I'd be willing to put 100$ towards that 833t.  So what do we need another nine guys?  Anyone?


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## tweinke (May 16, 2018)

The frustration level here seems to be at the high end of the scale and I can understand that. I purchased my 727m from QMT and was tickled to have the machine and still am. I had an issue with the motor a few months into ownership and thought what the heck here we go down the warranty parts rabbit hole. I sent Matt an email on Sat morning with pictures and the best description I could adding in the email I would call on Monday. I had a reply email by noon on Saturday! We had the details worked out that day and I had the new motor on Wednesday. I'm pretty sure I got lucky as far as QMT having the motor on hand and that there was no extra hands involved in getting the part.  Now to me that's customer service. Is my mill made in China yup, is it perfect nope, but it was what I could afford and based on what I had read here on H-M I thought I had the best chance with QMT. So Matt if you are reading this thank you, umahunter I'm sure Matt will get your issue resolved and I do understand your frustration. Keep smiling guys things will get better!


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## umahunter (May 17, 2018)

Well my spindle finally arrived today and even though the box was busted open a bit on both ends the spindle seems to be ok from looking at it and low and behold you can pop collet in by hand and it stays in place hoping to start working on it tomorrow my helper had shoulder surgery this morning so I'm lil tied up today but it's here and way better than the spindle in there now and it seems to have survived shipping


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## PT Doc (May 17, 2018)

umahunter said:


> Well my spindle finally arrived today and even though the box was busted open a bit on both ends the spindle seems to be ok from looking at it and low and behold you can pop collet in by hand and it stays in place hoping to start working on it tomorrow my helper had shoulder surgery this morning so I'm lil tied up today but it's here and way better than the spindle in there now and it seems to have survived shipping



You are supposed to install a part that is covered under warranty?


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## Ray C (May 17, 2018)

PT Doc said:


> You are supposed to install a part that is covered under warranty?



For high end pro-level equipment, you can buy a setup package for onsite installation and also purchase a labor warranty.  The cost is usually negotiable but 5-10% of the purchase fee is customary.   For small equipment like this, there are no companies that I'm aware of that offer such warranties or insurance policies.

Ray


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## gmalcom (May 17, 2018)

Buying from China is hit or miss and consumers need to understand that risk when making a purchase.  I'm in manufacturing and I'll be out of a job when they figure out how to get it right the first time.  I also have a garage full of Chinese equipment that I couldn't afford if it wasn't so cheap.  I'm ok with the risk and also ok with their lack of control.


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## chiroone (May 18, 2018)

I want to give some recognition to Matt, I think he’s a very honorable and straightforward guy. But when dealing with China, They have a totally different mentality then we do here in the west. If you expect them to get it done yesterday; 100% perfect, then you will be somewhat disappointed.

 I have a friend of mine I’ve known since high school who is always an entrepreneur. He moved to China shortly after graduating from college and actually set up an importation Business. In fact, he even learn to speak Mandarin Chinese. He had them make a number of rather unusual items, one of which I recall is one of those so-called electronic flyswatter’s. He also impored sky lanterns by the millions. He told me That when having business deals with them,you have to be rather sensitive to the Chinese culture.

Apparently, they have dozens of holidays, cultural events, and other festivals that you must recognize and acknowledge, and not really expect to get things done during these times. Also, whatever you want to build, if you tell them how much you want to pay, they will figure some way to get it done no matter how they have to cut corners. If you want something done with a higher quality, they will do that, but of course you may have to wait a little longer and of course pay more.
 This is why you see machines that look very similar in appearance, from companies like Harbor freight, grizzly and PM but vary greatly in  fit finish and overall quality.

 From what I understand, in the factories, they have what we in America would call the A, B and C team. From my understanding, the C team may include some convict or forced type labor,  they will get it done at rock bottom type prices with concurrent quality consistent with this . .I guess all of this basically comes down to the fact that every once in a while, you are going to have a lemon or two sneak out. 

Please understand, I’m not saying that either one of you two are wrong. You have every right to expect a functioning machine, and I’m sure Matt will do everything in his power to let that happen, but also understand you are not buying an American or European type machine nor paying American or European prices, so you have to work with the Asian type quality, mentality and time frame.

Good luck, and I hope your dog recovers very quickly from his procedure.


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## pacifica (May 20, 2018)

I bought a pm 1340 got (Taiwan) ,added hitachi vfd .nice size and footprint,tie under .00005(yes 4 zeros) ways perfect,apron crosslide great.
Used ,looked for a year with little success.and the time.
If you spend $15k a lot of worries go away but who has that for a hobby.
Matt gives a nice balance with the Taiwan machines


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## ezduzit (May 20, 2018)

Some of you expect an awful lot from the cheapest Chinese made stuff.


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## PT Doc (May 20, 2018)

ezduzit said:


> Some of you expect an awful lot from the cheapest Chinese made stuff.



I think that people are just expecting things to work and work well. I don’t think there are disclaimers on certain machines that they are price point units and the end user should expect to have problems and expect to work on the machine themselves when you eventually get the pats you need.

What do you think folks should expect?


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## wrmiller (May 20, 2018)

Expecting a Chinese made machine to "work well" is too much to expect IMO. Every Chinese machine I have seen/worked on/owned was basically a pre-assembled kit that needed to be torn apart, reworked, and have parts replaced to get it to serviceable condition. The last Chinese machine I owned, a 9x40 mill, took me over a year of work to get it right.

While some folks will be satisfied with a Chinese machine right out of the box, most of the more serious hobby types will be in for some level of disappointment.


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## PT Doc (May 20, 2018)

wrmiller said:


> Expecting a Chinese made machine to "work well" is too much to expect IMO. Every Chinese machine I have seen/worked on/owned was basically a pre-assembled kit that needed to be torn apart, reworked, and have parts replaced to get it to serviceable condition. The last Chinese machine I owned, a 9x40 mill, took me over a year of work to get it right.
> 
> While some folks will be satisfied with a Chinese machine right out of the box, most of the more serious hobby types will be in for some level of disappointment.



I don't disagree and I think many will also agree with you.  BUT how is the buyer supposed to know what to expect?  You are basing your opinion on your past experience.

I feel that research has always helped me with my purchases. I suggest anyone buying machinery always check the forums for good information.


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## Chuck K (May 20, 2018)

This is why I get aggrivated when people are advised to steer clear of the old iron and buy new Chinese instead.  At least when you get done working on the old iron you have something that is capable of taking a heavy cut without the cross slide flexing and messing up your work piece or tool.  In a perfect world you could buy the cheap new machine and it would be ready to rock right out of the crate....the world aint perfect.


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## ezduzit (May 21, 2018)

PT Doc said:


> ...how is the buyer supposed to know what to expect?...



If it sounds too good to be true.....


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## wrmiller (May 21, 2018)

PT Doc said:


> I don't disagree and I think many will also agree with you.  BUT how is the buyer supposed to know what to expect?  You are basing your opinion on your past experience.
> 
> I feel that research has always helped me with my purchases. I suggest anyone buying machinery always check the forums for good information.



It's not just my opinion. I've talked to, and helped many people who bought Chinese machines. And research helps, but it's no guarantee. Some folks get a good machine, another person buys the same model machine from the same supplier and have issues. It really helps if a importer stands behind the machines they sell, because your chance of getting a machine that needs some TLC is very real.

Neither of my Taiwan machines had any issues after I received them, and both are very accurate. I've had enough pre-assembled kits...


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## markba633csi (May 21, 2018)

Talk about good service!  I'm impressed. If I EVER bought an import machine, I'd buy it from him.  
Mark


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## Ray C (May 21, 2018)

Folks...

Several years ago, I did after-sale support work for Matt and even helped sell quite a few machines.   I did this for a couple years and in that time, several hundred Chinese machines of varying kinds were sold.   Just about every single call for help got routed to me.   I recall 2 machines having a confirmed manufacturing defect.   We also had a case where 10 lathes were shipped with metric leadscrews instead of US.     This was not a defective part per-se.  It was due to an ordering error because one metric machine was ordered but the factory sent 1 lot (25) because that is the minimum quantity of any given model.  There was also a case where 3-4 mills were found to have improperly tightened wire connections in the connector block. In all cases, Matt resolved the issue to the customer's satisfaction.

So, out of about 500 machines (and it was probably more than that) 16 had a problem.   That's 96.8% that didn't have a problem.   Yes, there's the normal issues that arise such as motor capacitors, weak fuses and an occasional screw, nut or bolt that comes lose with a short time.   This happens to just about everything you buy today.  My first new American automobiles purchased between the 80's and 90's had 10 times worse problems.

Are Chinese lathes & mills the same quality as Taiwanese?   No.  Fit, finish and attention to detail on the Taiwanese machines is much better. 

Does Matt have to work harder to sell the Chinese machines?  Yes!   He checks the shipments when they arrive and he sorts-out any significant issues before sending it.  He used to check every single machine.  I don't know if he still does that or not -but nonetheless, it's a lot of work.    Do Chinese machines cut any better?   I don't think so.   If anyone here has watched my projects, I routinely cut pieces with pretty darn close tolerances.   The lathe (PM1236) and Mill (PM45) are both Chinese and completely stock.  

How come I'm not doing support work for Matt anymore?   A)  I'm an engineering contractor/consultant and had to sign an exclusivity agreement on my last long-term contract.   B)  I could not handle working with a small percentage of buyers who were calling my house at all hours in the morning, afternoon, evening and middle of night (sometimes drunk).   The majority of folks here are really quite fine and that's why I hang around here.   A great many of the "newby" folks outside of this web site are really confused.   People see videos on YouTube of a $400,000 machine doing all kinds of fancy work -and somehow, they think a 500lb lathe is going to hog metal like a Shipley with the precision of a Hardinge. 

FWIW, I was raised in a machine shop. Father was a T&D maker.  Uncle a metallurgist.   My first lathe was Leblond 1554 gear head and I was in full control of it at/around the age of 9 years old.  Later on, I ran a 1554 Regal (hydroshift).   I've also owned SB, and a couple Atlas machines over the years at times in life where I did not have room for a full shop.   If someone wants to know more about the differences between Old Iron, New Iron and Asian Iron and wants to know about what it's really like to service the hobby-end of the retail business.  -Just ask.  You will get an honest answer.

Ray


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## ezduzit (May 21, 2018)

Ray C said:


> ...My first new American automobiles purchased between the 80's and 90's had 10 times worse problems...



Oh come on!


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## markba633csi (May 21, 2018)

I remember some 80s cars were notoriously awful (Dodge, for one.)


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## solo (May 21, 2018)

The company I work for, let China buy in for 50 million. Now most of our parts are from there. I said at the time this is a bad ideal. Now I'm living the bad ideal, every day, we have loads of parts to rework. While I was out for surgery, they brought on another guy, mostly a fabricator, with a little machining skill. That's another story.  I can't take the junk, anymore. It seems what we get is a low end product, quality is terrible.
 I bought a 14 x 40 BV from Matt a few years ago, and it's been great. 
And the 80's cars--- How about the K car, or the Granada. Which one did Chevy try to turn into a diesel? That didn't work. 
Back to China, as soon as this house is finished, it's going on the market. As soon as it's sold, I'm quitting the China rework business. I'd rather work for myself. I'm to tired to deal with all the BS anymore.


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## gman10259 (May 21, 2018)

My first lathe for home was a Weiss WBL290F which looks just like the PM1127. I was very disappointed with the quality of the machine. Sold it and purchased a PM 1236-T. Much better quality then the Chinese lathe. That being said I had a few issues with the PM 1236-T that required some replacement parts. It took a while to get them but PM was always easy to deal with and they know their machines. Which is a plus when dealing with people who sell machine tools but don't really have and machining background.


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## gman10259 (May 21, 2018)

On a different note. I'm using a Amazon Fire Tablet and the Damn thing constantly changes words on me. Which makes me have to go back and write it again for it to take. Has anyone else with a Fire Tablet experienced this?


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## ttabbal (May 21, 2018)

gman10259 said:


> On a different note. I'm using a Amazon Fire Tablet and the Damn thing constantly changes words on me. Which makes me have to go back and write it again for it to take. Has anyone else with a Fire Tablet experienced this?



In the settings under keyboard you should have an option to automatically replace words when you hit space or punctuation. Most keyboards on Android have the option default to on. Just turn that off and you should be fine.


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## higgite (May 21, 2018)

gman10259 said:


> On a different note. I'm using a Amazon Fire Tablet and the Damn thing constantly changes words on me. Which makes me have to go back and write it again for it to take. Has anyone else with a Fire Tablet experienced this?


Is it from China or Taiwan?


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## gman10259 (May 21, 2018)

Thanks.....I'm betting China


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## Silverbullet (May 22, 2018)

gman10259 said:


> On a different note. I'm using a Amazon Fire Tablet and the Damn thing constantly changes words on me. Which makes me have to go back and write it again for it to take. Has anyone else with a Fire Tablet experienced this?


Yes pita fire fire


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## umahunter (May 23, 2018)

Yes my tablet started doing that after an update it changes almost every dam word oh for I if for it doesn't matter what I do it's so freaking irritating


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## hotrats (May 25, 2018)

Not really pertinent to this discussion, but.. My wife is Viet, and we spend quite a bit of time in SE Asia. We did and do carry things from the states to family there. I started questioning some items made in China that we were carrying from the USA - to Vietnam!, her response is China dumps their 2nd quality on my country, she'd rather carry better quality stuff back there. In comparing some items afterwards, she was correct. I appreciated reading Matts response. I purchased a 940 mill about 3 years ago, and have a  1236 lathe waiting for us to get home from Vietnam so can be delivered.


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## FLguy (May 25, 2018)

Your response Mat is why so many of us buy and respect PM.


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## SSage (Jun 1, 2018)

Why not send the problem parts to Mat immediately? Probably would have had a quicker fix. Getting replacement parts from China takes time and patience even when things go perfect. I bought Chinese because of the price point, wish I had the money for a Taiwanese 1340! But, I had no issues with my little PM727m with DRO at all and I work it fairly hard. I haven't had to repair anything after months of use, thats very good for a machine from China IMO. I'm surprised I got two decent machines, I usually get the lemons! My PM1236 has been fine, its still performing good after a year of regular use. The old American iron I could afford was all worn out and harder to use, its nice to have something new.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 7, 2018)

qualitymachinetools said:


> I just want to comment, yes the customer has been waiting, but I have been trying like hell to get it resolved.
> 
> 1. Had his machine for about 4 months, said he had a problem, said they think its the spindle. No problem, said I will send him a spindle, this was at the beginning of the month. I still dont know 100% if thats it, but a person I know from the forums was helping him, he said thats probably what it is, I never questioned it. Not worth it, would rather just fix the problem.
> 2. Spindle sent from the factory about 10 days later, should deliver 3-4 days. Not a big deal. He did not receive it, so he emailed me.
> ...


Being I am about to purchase your 727m, how do I know if it is from China or Taiwan?
Thanks, I don't mean to hi-jack!!


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## higgite (Jul 7, 2018)

Guns,

Check the description on PM's website. From post #35:



qualitymachinetools said:


> If its from Taiwan, it will say Taiwan. If not, then its from China.       They are the only 2 choices, 95% of what you see out there is from China if it is from anyone else, most companies do not have the higher end machines from Taiwan, but we do have some. I am working on more, but its a slow process.    And the price is higher for sure


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 7, 2018)

umahunter said:


> If you go a page back I posted I got the new spindle and everything has been  working . well sadly gunners cancer came back bad and he passed in my arms  a couple weeks ago


I assume Gunner is your buddy in the picture...I have had dog pass in my arms from lethal injection...it's burned into my soul forever.....sorry for your loss.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 7, 2018)

higgite said:


> Guns,
> 
> Check the description on PM's website. From post #35:


Man, I have gone through their site upside down/backwards....even the manual, Nothing says country of origin. Not sure it's a make it/ break it, but for sure could seal the deal.


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## 81husky (Jul 7, 2018)

My understanding is if there's a "T" in the suffix, the machine is from Taiwan. Example 1340GT or 935TS. If no T, then most likely China.


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## higgite (Jul 8, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Being I am about to purchase your 727m, how do I know if it is from China or Taiwan?
> Thanks, I don't mean to hi-jack!!


The description on PM's website doesn't say it's from Taiwan. According to Matt's post, that means it's from China.

Tom


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## Z2V (Jul 8, 2018)

Guns, as @81husky said, a “T” in the model number seems to indicate that it is from Taiwan. Also the Taiwan models are presented as “ Precision or Ultra Precision “ models. It looks like the only Taiwanese bench mill they offer is the 833 T
If you can swing the extra expense up front I would go with the “T” model.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 8, 2018)

Wow, that's very few then! Thanks for clarification Z2V


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## mksj (Jul 8, 2018)

Nice to see that the problem was resolved and the issue was properly identified. I had purchased a BF-30 bench top mill from another vendor about 8 years ago, it came with multiple serious defects, the lead screws were suppose to be US and were metric with US dials and numerous other issues. Needless to say without a DRO it was useless. The manufacturer/distributor's fix was to send metric dials, the DRO failed and it took 4 months to get a warranty replacement. I eventually sold the mill after I had fixed many of the defects and at substantial cost. Moving forward I purchased a 1340GT lathe from QMT and a LCM-42 knee mill from Acra. The two predominate factors in these purchases was the quality of the machines and the service, which I would rate QMT at the top. Not only in eventually resolving any issues, but providing long term parts and service along with the longest warranty. At this cost level of machines the warranties only provide parts replacement, which is the standard for the industry. Getting the parts can be a prolonged process, but at least you can still get parts.

The QMT machines with the suffix of "T" is for Taiwan manufacturer, the only current bench top mill sold by QMT is the 833T, the other models are of Chinese mainland manufacturer.

Umahunter, so sorry for your loss. I had been in the medical field for 30+ years treating cancer and HIV patients,  I block out of my mind all the patients and close friends that passed through the years. Our dogs are our companions for their/our life, and having to put down one so dear to our heart's is never forgotten and one of the most difficult experiences I have endured. My sympathies go out to you, but also balance it against all the good times you experienced together. RIP.


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## pacifica (Jul 8, 2018)

umahunter said:


> If you go a page back I posted I got the new spindle and everything has been  working . well sadly gunners cancer came back bad and he passed in my arms  a couple weeks ago


Sorry about Gunner, he was a great companion in the shop.


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## umahunter (Jul 8, 2018)

pacifica said:


> Sorry about Gunner, he was a great companion in the shop.


Thanks man its been rough he was only six at first I was really mad this happened while I was recovering from surgery. I work for myself so I had to work my but off and save to be off and him needing surgery etc was hard to cover but in the end I'm glad it did because we got to spend every day together i knew his cancer would be back I just didn't thank it would be so fast I'm really thankful I was with him 24/7


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## umahunter (Jul 17, 2018)

Update  everything has been working great but unfortunately the bearing greese I used wasn't good enough as some has been liquifying and dripping a bit at high speed so I need to redo it with something better any other suggestions than kluber which they seem very proud of do y'all think the 50g tube for 27 bucks is enough to do two bearings or any suggestions for anything else or is kluber the standard thanks for your help


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## TomS (Jul 17, 2018)

umahunter said:


> Update  everything has been working great but unfortunately the bearing greese I used wasn't good enough as some has been liquifying and dripping a bit at high speed so I need to redo it with something better any other suggestions than kluber which they seem very proud of do y'all think the 50g tube for 27 bucks is enough to do two bearings or any suggestions for anything else or is kluber the standard thanks for your help



I bought the 50g syringe.  It's enough to do a dozen PM-932 spindle bearings, and possibly more.


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## umahunter (Jul 19, 2018)

Is the kluber isoflex I need the nb52  ??? Thanks for any help


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## umahunter (Jul 19, 2018)

Thought I would add for anyone for future reference or for anyone that searches since it'  not listed the pm932m  collet stop screw is a metric 5x.08 dog point set screw it's a slotted screw most are hex


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## TomS (Jul 19, 2018)

umahunter said:


> Is the kluber isoflex I need the nb52  ??? Thanks for any help



I used Isoflex NBU15 which is a high speed spindle bearing grease.


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## wrmiller (Jul 21, 2018)

umahunter said:


> I gave the guy credit for getting it fixed I thought this was a forum to speak to others with the same machine is it against the rules to post a problem if they're a sponsor ???



It's OK to post problems. I have. 

I don't agree with someone coming on here all blowtorch and posting only one side of an issue, but you didn't do that. It's all good.


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## HMF (Jul 21, 2018)

Before I close this thread, I am going to explain a few things about why the title was changed, by me, and some posts removed.

When a periodical posts that someone is a criminal on PAGE ONE, and then retracts it on PAGE 30, that doesn't do much for the person accused, does it? People read what's on the first page and that's it. A search indicates that the person is guilty, rarely the retraction.

*Fact:* The OP posted that he was dissatisfied with the product in the title. On post 30 or thereabouts, the OP stated, in terms that most people would miss, (in fact one person did miss it), that the problem was solved. He doesn't thank Matt for his efforts. He then posts in another thread that he had a problem (after it was solved). That is grossly unfair. 

*Fact*: Matt has been a supporter of this site for years. His support has made the site possible.  Without support, there is NO site. Many of you support us, and we are extremely grateful. 

*Fact:* In almost 8 years as the person behind this site, I have never vouched for any vendor- ever.  However, I am going to say this about Matt- he tries his best for his customers. I have personally seen it. Often.

*Fact:* Some of you will *NEVER* donate a dime to this site if we hang you by your fingernails upside down. I am damned tired of asking and begging for donations. The OP is one of those people, after 4 years of no support. Then, he criticizes a site supporter, who is doing his best to address his issue, with a title that does NOTHING to indicate a resolution. This is followed by further reference by the OP to the issue in another thread, He then publicly complains that the title was edited, which is in the exercise of our discretion. I guess you can't please some people, can you?

I refer you to Rule 7:
*TREAT VENDORS WITH RESPECT:
7. Vendors are not immune to constructive criticism on this forum. However, where it is clear that someone is acting unreasonably, making unsupported comments and attacks upon the vendor's product and reputation, with some unrealistic agenda in mind, those comments shall be removed, and that person shall face disciplinary action, including removal from the forum. Constructive comments benefit everyone- both the vendor and the end-user, but obnoxious and unsubstantiated attacks serve no purpose other than to wrongfully harm the vendor's reputation, and to create a hostile and unfriendly atmosphere that is inconsistent with our mission and purpose, and shall not be tolerated. All vendors deserve the chance to explain their products, and respond to mindful criticism. If you are joining to attack a vendor's products, do not join this forum.* 

If there had not been a resolution of the OP's problem, I would have left the thread alone. But there was. and It was buried many posts down behind a  title that was no longer accurately reflective of the effort the vendor put into resolving the problem. Then, the OP mentions his issues with the vendor in yet another post, AFTER the issues were resolved.  (I deleted that thread after it, too, was resolved without any admission that the issue was resolved). I dont consider that fair at all. The issue was resolved, why continue to bring it up?

*Fact: * I have refused to accept advertising and/or sponsorship from another equipment manufacturer who has a poor reputation in my opinion for responding to customer issues.  I will not divulge the name. I do not accept either advertising or sponsorship from any manufacturer with a reputation for poor customer service. Nor do I edit any issues that people have with these vendors.

Where else do you ever see the owner of a company come to a site and address problems the members have?  I would like to see other vendors make half the effort that Matt makes. I purchased something from another manufacturer, and it was broken when I got it, and they told me to go scratch.


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