# shop heater  what are you using



## tpic402

I have been working on finishing and insulating my shop, I have started looking for a propane heater  I would love infrared but the cost seems to be very prohibitive, my only choices for fuel are electric and propane don not wish to mess with wood or coal.   any hints any brands that have worked well     shop size   24x16x9     Gave myself a deadline of dec. 15th   that did not work out too well though. finished interior framing for insulation today.      OUTTA FUN MONEY  for now


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## woodguy

My shop is about the same size as yours, apart from the height. I used scissor trusses to give me room to swing a 16 foot board - I built it for woodworking.  It is super insulated: R32 walls, R60 ceiling, R10 under the slab.  I heat it with one of these: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44590&cat=1,43456,43465,44590

It's -23 C outside right now and going colder tonight. When it gets really cold, I leave the shop lights on.  I just came from the shop and it is cozy in there.


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## brasssmanget

I have my shop in an attached garage - 24X22X12 [center height open truss] I use one similar to the one shown in the link. Takes a little time to warm it up to shirt sleeve temps, but I can work in the shop all winter if need be....albeit I am a hobby worker and not required to be there every day....Wisconsin winters are pretty cold sometimes. :whiteflag:


http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/hvac/heaters/portable-electric/portable-electric-heater-4000w


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## Ray C

My shop is the same size as yours.  The walls, ceiling and overhead doors are insulated.  I'm using this heater which is 20,000 BTU and am running it on propane.  It works fine.  I leave it on all 24x7 set at 50 at night and about 60-65 when I'm out there (which is most of the time).  I've never turned it up more than 1/3 full setting.  I leave a medium size fan running all the time, blowing up at the ceiling to circulate the air.  The main tank is a 60lb which lasts on average 30 days, of continuous use.  I also have a small BBQ (20lb) tank as a standby.  When the main tank goes empty, the little tank will cover you until you get a refill.  Around here, it's $45 to fill the 60lb tank.  

This is a dual-fuel (propane or natural gas) unit.  http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=57&id=358

BTW:  I personally am not a fan of the infra-red heaters.  My friend has one and it cooks whatever side you're facing and the other side is ice cold...  Drives me nuts.

EDIT:  I bought that heater 2 years ago and it was about $170 including delivery...  

Ray


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## pestilence

This reply will probably be useless to you, but here it is anyway.  My shop is free standing and insulated.  I had a small heat pump air conditioner installed when it was built.  It's the kind where the compressor is outside on the ground and the coolant is piped through the wall to the back of another heat exchanger inside on the wall.  I live in Arizona and my main problem is keeping the shop cool in the summer, but I have run the heater a bit this winter.  I think the biggest improvement you can make is insulation.  Having insulation drastically reduces the requirements for heating and cooling, of course.


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## bvd1940

I picked up a used 90%+ propane furnace and just got finished moving it out of the old shop into my new digs.
I paid $400 and the guy installed & stands by his equip. and I have a 500 gal propane tank for the house and shop.
hardly ever runs and i leave it set for 45 deg. Well insulated 32x40x15 foot ceiling and it has been running in the -5 to -10 regularly at night and the teens daytime.
check with local heating contractors for a pull out for a good price.


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## Senna

I'll be using a 125,000-150,000 BTU propane heater in my new garage/shop. I'll likely go with a Modine as they're made in the USA.

My shop will be 30x50 with 12 foot ceiling and will be super insulated with Logix ICF walls R-28 and R-60 ceiling and R-10 slab.

Kinda looking forward to getting this thing built.


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## DAN_IN_MN

If anyone is putting in a new slab, consider in floor heat.  Nothing like having a warm rock under your feet!

Another thing to think about is Earth tubes. <-- internet search

A ceiling fan blowing down can keep the heater off more too.


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## GK1918

What am I using? many many green backs.  And I have tried everything.  I almost tempted for a v8 gas engine outside and its radiator
inside with a fan and run it with a 195* thermostat????????????????  gas is cheaper round here.  Thought is; our burner is a Carlin running
a 1.00 gph nozzel, thats a gal an hour.  I dont think a small block V8 will burn a gal an hour idling?? dont know..., yet...Even with from a
dead dig with a 75,000 torpedo plus a 150,000btu furnice it takes a good two hours to get up to 50 degrees thats already 3 gallons..
Next two problems my old bones cant take the cold, next I refuse to turn on machines not up to temp, so thats about all day throwing
money up the stack... Meanwhile my kids a parading around in tee shirts, ya gotta be kidding.. Coal, nobody has it, wood, I'm not chopping
it. waste oil, we dont generate enough, and those who do and use to give it away got wise and want to sell it,  catch 22 again...


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## Ray C

Holy smokes....  How big is the place?  Is it insulated?

Ray




GK1918 said:


> What am I using? many many green backs.  And I have tried everything.  I almost tempted for a v8 gas engine outside and its radiator
> inside with a fan and run it with a 195* thermostat????????????????  gas is cheaper round here.  Thought is; our burner is a Carlin running
> a 1.00 gph nozzel, thats a gal an hour.  I dont think a small block V8 will burn a gal an hour idling?? dont know..., yet...Even with from a
> dead dig with a 75,000 torpedo plus a 150,000btu furnice it takes a good two hours to get up to 50 degrees thats already 3 gallons..
> Next two problems my old bones cant take the cold, next I refuse to turn on machines not up to temp, so thats about all day throwing
> money up the stack... Meanwhile my kids a parading around in tee shirts, ya gotta be kidding.. Coal, nobody has it, wood, I'm not chopping
> it. waste oil, we dont generate enough, and those who do and use to give it away got wise and want to sell it,  catch 22 again...


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## FWest

My 24x16 garage is not insulated. This is the first year I have really wanted to be out-new mini mill. I tried a few different heaters and found the 60,000 btu propane space heater,torpedo type, does the best. I will be insulating before next winter.


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## tpic402

Ray C  does that heater not vented outside cause moisture problems.    Thanks for answers so far.   Hate to say that I will have to stop project for short time pulled muscle in shoulder while working on garage transition to shop. what a PIA.


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## GK1918

Ray C said:


> Holy smokes....  How big is the place?  Is it insulated?
> 
> Ray



Ya Ray, the main shop is 40x50 with 16ft ceiling.  Big Big problem a customer with an emergency and the heat cost more that the part?
Winter means no landscapers or farmers breakin stuff.  No snow Yet, so no welding.  My makeup I was born with; I only last so long in
the house and (winter means prison) I just have to go up there.  Our original shop, about 20x 28 or 30 now is the nest of my Model T
Ford.  So thats like my man cave.  small freebe furnace run on a jug of diesel, takes about 20min up to 70*.  Thats my makeup Ray,
I write this Sunday already got cabin fever at 9:30 am. solution I shall put a leash on cat go to my Model T Haven man cave, cat goes in
the Ford to sleep I starre at it 'the Ford"  and "that" emptys my stress.  More so, would be nice to move machine shop back, BUT over the
years we grew into very heavy metal, and the ole wood floors just wont cut it.  Then all said and done fire it up and warmed up, Ricardo
relocates himself to the warmth on the hood & goes asleep again.  And for 'those people', No I dont drive with a cat on hood, and No 2
dont go anywhere without his leash strapped to me, and I should have said the car was hot outside then put inside, then shut door then
turn on heat..  Dont care if I got monoxsided but not my cat.   
gettin old aint it well its just  'me'.........................................................

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FWest said:


> My 24x16 garage is not insulated. This is the first year I have really wanted to be out-new mini mill. I tried a few different heaters and found the 60,000 btu propane space heater,torpedo type, does the best. I will be insulating before next winter.



I have noted in the past that propane fired anything causes moisture swetting? is that true ?


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## master53yoda

My background before retiring was HVAC    I'm just going to give some basics here:     heating is btuh,   Btu per hour,  it reacts the same no matter what fuel you use depending on how much your sending up the stack % efficiency.       Most modern heating equipment is 80% + if vented in metal pipe and 90% plus if vented in PVC pipe.    Electric is 100% efficient.

to find the difference in operating costs you would divide the    ((Heat loss of the building BTUH) / BTUs per gallon etc.)/% efficiency   this would give you Gallons etc. of fuel per hour.    The heat loss is calculated using the temp difference between inside temp desired and normal year coldest for you area.    I live in eastern washington and our coldest teme for design is +2 F.  What the formula above is going to give you is The amount of fuel you would use at +2 F outside.        

Heat is transfered in 2 different methods one is heating the air and then heating the objects.   Because the objects you are working on are on the floor and the heat rises most of the heat is high in the room     This form of heat is most expensive due to the lost heat high in the room.  It also is slower to get comfortable if the temp is allowed to go down and come backup because the equipment itself gets cold.


The second common form of heating is radient or infra-red,  it heats objects not the air,  it is a line of sight heat source.   there are 2 forms of radient heat commonly used,  High intensity, with the heat source in the 800+ temp range.   these infra-red heaters provide the fastest temp change on the equipment. 1/2hr  between startup and operational temps.going through a 20 degree temp change.  You, the machine, and the tools are warm as long as they are where they can see the heater.   In an uninsulated envirnment or intermitant use, this is the cheapest form of heating you can use.    It does need a high 10+ cieling hieght,  the air temp is slow to come up so your not paying to heat space and materials that you are not using.    

This type also is available in smaller units that are mounted on top of a propane tank, these do not have thermostats so you do end up messing with them but they are wonderful for spot heat such as one machine.   

The third type is radient floor heighting   you have piping in the floor that up to 100 degree water is pumped through heating the floor and the objects radiently.   It is a very stable heat source and economical IF you are keeping the temp the same all the time.    Unless you mapped the installed piping locations( not the contractors or archetcts prints) you run a risk of breaking piping drilling and mounting equipment to the floor.

bottom line is if your well insulated most any form will work ok and not break you up in business.    If your shop isn't well insulated or the doors are frequently opened infra-re is your best bet.   also remember that you have an ignition source from any open flame so be careful when using solvents fuels etc.


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## irish32339jack

Shop is topside of an out building. 150 year old structure, various insulation types, all 4 surfaces topside. Have some O.C. glass, but do not like it. Mice, and other critters, think it is *****in nesting material. Cellotex 2 side foil is, I think, best. Heater is a Model 55 Toyostove running on K1. Heats wicked good. Keep at min temp (55 degrees) that the Toyostove provides. Location is coastal Maine. Usage was about 50 gal/month, when I was up there 365.
Cheers, Jonathan


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## FanMan

GK1918 said:


> I have noted in the past that propane fired anything causes moisture swetting? is that true ?



Any combustion heater that isn't vented outside puts moisture in the air.  This includes all portable heaters and the so-called "vent free" propane heaters.  In theory, burning propane produces only CO2 and water vapor.  The water vapor alone can be a problem (nobody likes rusty tools), but the real danger is that unvented heaters are also burning anything else that's in the air... dust, fumes, etc., and no telling what those combustion products are, or what they do to your lungs.  I wouldn't put an unvented heater in my house or my shop.

A used furnace can be an excellent choice for a shop, if you have the means to properly vent it outside.  An old mobile home furnace is especially convenient.   My shop (a 2 car garage) is heated by an old oil furnace (fed from a 55 gallon drum) that a friend removed than the DWH coil went.  I have it plumbed to an old car radiator with a fan blowing through it.  Heats the garage from way below freezing to comfortable in an hour or less (overkill is good for a shop that's not heated all the time).


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## Ray C

In my own experiences, I have not noticed any more/less humidity as compared to the kerosene heater I had before.  Matter of fact, since propane is cheaper to run, I now leave the shop heated 24x7 and since the temperature does not swing up/down, I get a lot less condensation than before.  It's the daily hot/cold cycles that lead to condensation.  I have no rust problems at all.

As mentioned by another contributor, yes, any time you have an open flame, dust or oil fumes will create some smells.  I minimize as much as possible using anything objectionable and I also open the overhead for a few moments every now and then.  Propane was a big improvement over kerosene -that's for sure.  Also, to be on the safe side, I have both smoke and carbon monoxide detectors in the garage.  I test them regularly and neither has ever triggered an alarm while working back there.


Ray


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## machinist18

Have you considered an Edenpure or similar ceramic heater. With a small well insulated shop they might just do the job for you and ours is very economical to run. We use it in the living room and it saves us a bundle on propane in our old farm house.


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## Sevens0n

I have been very happy with my Nodine ceiling mount propane heater. Zero floor space footprint is a plus. Shop is 24x26x8. Not super insulated, but is  "well" insulated. 100 gallon propane tank (about $250), lasts me most of the heating season, keeping the temp about 45 degrees 24/7 and a comfortable 68 or so when working. My nodine was a craigs list find and is sized quite a bit larger then spec. which I think is a good idea, it heats up fast. about 20 minutes. My only gripe is that the concrete floor stays cool for ever. And the 16ft. overhead door lacks some insulating value. Hope this helps, Google Nodine heaters and check them out. Good Luck!


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## GK1918

Back to my reply in number #13.     A test in the ole former shop.  We all know, fact all Model T Fords run at pretty near boiling its a
thermosypon systom.  For the fun of it, I piped the tail pipe out side.  Next I measure fuel tank (a stick)  I run the car for a hour. Next I am
able to take of my coat off - outside 23 degrees, inside it went up to around 55 degrees. I measure the fuel with a stick, same thing.
Next I run it another hour, now im knicking on 70 degrees.  Now thats two hours of run time.  I stick the tank again and I could not measure
the drop, maybe with a mic .  Now if I sticked the furnace tank I could measure that with a yard stick.  They say these "Ts" will do 25
to 35 Miles per gal, i dont know. But I do know I'm thinking it only burned a couple quarts of gas.  I am seeing or feeling all that cast iron
plus the hot muffer, tail pipe, fan blowing 200 degree air.  I think I'll see my junkyard buddie for a late 4 banger rice burner, build a box
out side two radiators inside with 110vt fans, and "lets see".  My old Ford is comming up with (I think) 1.5 gal of gas in 8 hrs v/s  8 gals
of furnace fuel with a 1.00 an hour burner nozzel.     more test to follow.

this is a redneck test ; also that block takes a long time to cool down inbetween starts.......it does not run constantly either


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## xalky

GK1918 said:


> Back to my reply in number #13.     A test in the ole former shop.  We all know, fact all Model T Fords run at pretty near boiling its a
> thermosypon systom.  For the fun of it, I piped the tail pipe out side.  Next I measure fuel tank (a stick)  I run the car for a hour. Next I am
> able to take of my coat off - outside 23 degrees, inside it went up to around 55 degrees. I measure the fuel with a stick, same thing.
> Next I run it another hour, now im knicking on 70 degrees.  Now thats two hours of run time.  I stick the tank again and I could not measure
> the drop, maybe with a mic .  Now if I sticked the furnace tank I could measure that with a yard stick.  They say these "Ts" will do 25
> to 35 Miles per gal, i dont know. But I do know I'm thinking it only burned a couple quarts of gas.  I am seeing or feeling all that cast iron
> plus the hot muffer, tail pipe, fan blowing 200 degree air.  I think I'll see my junkyard buddie for a late 4 banger rice burner, build a box
> out side two radiators inside with 110vt fans, and "lets see".  My old Ford is comming up with (I think) 1.5 gal of gas in 8 hrs v/s  8 gals
> of furnace fuel with a 1.00 an hour burner nozzel.     more test to follow.
> 
> this is a redneck test ; also that block takes a long time to cool down inbetween starts.......it does not run constantly either


I don't see how this could be an efficient setup. Now, if you were running the motor to power something and capturing the waste heat as you discussed, then you could say that the heat was essentially free. If you really want it to get warm in there, drain the oil out of it. The block will heat up much quicker!:lmao:


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## pineyfolks

I use a 150,000 btu Reddy Heater, my shop is 32 X 40 with a 10' ceiling. A ceiling fan helps greatly.


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## Mid Day Machining

I use a propane heater that I got from Home Depot (see picture). The only thing I'm not real crazy about is it is really noisy. It sounds like a rocket ship taking off while it runs.

It's not a really good heater, but a really "COLD" night here is 50 degrees and that only happens about 20 days a year.

It's gotta be warm here because I live in shorts and a tee shirt. I've worn long pants once in the last 13 years and I don't have any intention of making that a regular practice any time soon.

The only time I have worn long pants in the last 13 years was when my wife made me a deal I just couldn't pass up. She told me that if I would wear a suit to her nieces wedding, she would pull together enough money for me to buy the Tormach PCNC 1100 that's in my garage right now. Needless to say, she won that battle.


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## GK1918

I have re thought this situation.  I canned the Carlin burner and installed a later Becket.  We used to think turning heat off at night was saving, but
we now find leaving it on is the way to go.  Before money going up the stack pretty much all morning to get up to temp.  So it kind of makes sense
all that concrete, all that iron gets warm the furnace only maintains it.  Another big reason we kept a dump truck in there with 10yds of salt mix.
nothing like an already warm truck with dry sand mix- ready for another sizable storm Wednesday.  So far it looks like a little under $100 a month
and it is cold here.   Logically, one hour sanding pays for one month of shop heat good deal cause the water plant buys the salt mix, not me.
sam


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## Double T

propane tank topper. I have to shut it off periodically.


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## fastback

Since my machine shop is only 14 x 20 and well insulated I use a 4,000 watt electric hanging heater.  It works well and is only used while I'm in the shop.  Since the shop is in an addition attached to the original house I leave the door open to keep it somewhat warm when I'm not in there.  It does draw some heat from the main house's basement which is finished, but I find it cheaper than allowing the electric heat to run constantly.  I have no problems with moisture.

My wood working shop is heated by a woodstove its 22 x 22 and reasonably insulated.  It really takes no time to heat.  I can get it from 40degrees up to 60 in an hour regardless how cold it is outside.  I have no problems with moisture here either.


Now my barn is also heated with wood, but takes a long time to get it up to temperature.  The building is a 30 x 30 gambrel and is 2 floors.  The first floor is insulated but due to the size the amount of equipment and concrete it takes a few hours just to get it up 5 or 10 degrees.  Bottom line is I can still work if needed to. It can have issues with moisture, but mostly in the summer when its gets humid.

Paul


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## Great white hunter

I use a 100,000 btu prapane heater for the first hour and switch to the old wood burner.


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## TOOLMASTER

http://www.crystalheatingandcool.com/html/garage-unit-heater.html

running on natural gas


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## machinist18

I heat my 28 x 32 shop with a propane furnace that I keep set at 40 degrees just to keep the cold out. Then when I'm working out there I fire up the wood burner and warm it up to a comfortable temp.


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## Mike Nash

Double T said:


> propane tank topper. I have to shut it off periodically.



I lost 2 down filled vests to one of those. Two different occasions. Call me a slow learner. Fortunately I figured out what I was smelling both times before I got "too involved." Now I use an electric heater or two and keep it warm enough I don't need the vest.


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## orphan auto

Being a night owl with a detached unheated shop.
I use 2 sweatshirts and a padded vest.


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## Double T

Mike Nash said:


> I lost 2 down filled vests to one of those. Two different occasions. Call me a slow learner. Fortunately I figured out what I was smelling both times before I got "too involved." Now I use an electric heater or two and keep it warm enough I don't need the vest.



LOL!  You do have to be careful where you sit them. But mine will warm my shop up enough that I don't need any type of jacket. Place a small fan behind head and it can be placed far enough away from things to avoid melting.


p.s. I got the arms of my office chair!!


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## cathead

My heat sources are a pressurized wood boiler, oil and electric backup.  The wood system consists
of a pressurized boiler with one small Taco #10 pump circulating through an air conditioning radiator in
the house and one in the shop.  Also in this series are water heaters in both the house and shop
with side arms to heat my domestic water.  The boiler runs at 15 pounds of pressure and is
filled with plain water.  It has been working well for over 20 years.  The piping under ground is
3/4 inch copper which are silver soldered at each joint and well insulated inside sewer pipes.  The
lines are buried 5 feet under ground.  I test the oil furnace each fall but have not yet had to use
it.  Interesting though, I let the shop cool off at night and in the morning it is about 60 degrees or so. 
In the morning, the air warms up quickly but the iron takes a while.  Right now outside temperature
is -16F and dropping. My wood collecting system consists of an 11c Hydramac Skidsteer, several
trailers an ATV, and Stihl chain saws.


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## JimDawson

I have a 30x40 shop with 16ft ceiling.  It is reasonably well insulated.  I use a 150,000 btu torpedo type propane heater, in addition I have a wood stove that is additionally fed by 250 gal tank of waste oil from my son's auto repair business.  The ceiling fan helps.  We can keep it at shirt sleeve  temperature at about 10F.  It doesn't normally get all that cold here, we have pretty mild winters.


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## schor

I run a 4800watt 240volt box heater, it's about a 9" cube. I keep the shop at 34deg in the winter and I crank it up when I know I'm going to work out there. It's electric so it does cost $. On a cold day, outside temps in the teens, I can raise the shop about 20deg/hour. Shop is 18x28 10'-6" to ceiling, open to attic, insulated 95%, vapour barrier 90% (I'll get it done eventually).

I have a floor standing infrared that I move around if I'm just going into the shop for 1/2 hour at a time, keeps me warm enough for small lathe jobs or milling/drilling work.

I also walled off a 5'x7' room which I keep at 70deg for paints, glues, hand tools, workbench for working on the small things I don't need the full shop for.



tpic402 said:


> I have been working on finishing and insulating my shop, I have started looking for a propane heater  I would love infrared but the cost seems to be very prohibitive, my only choices for fuel are electric and propane don not wish to mess with wood or coal.   any hints any brands that have worked well     shop size   24x16x9     Gave myself a deadline of dec. 15th   that did not work out too well though. finished interior framing for insulation today.      OUTTA FUN MONEY  for now


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## Cobra

The shop is an attached garage 30X47 that has the cars in the front and shop in the back. Split the load with two 75000 BTU natural gas ceiling mounted heaters. Both on separate thermostats.  They are from Modine and I think they are available for propane as well. Most of the time just need to run one to bring the shop up from 10 degrees to 20 and then shut it down.


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## uncle harry

I have 2 quite well-insulated out building shops. One is 12 X 30 (a re-purposed hen house) that is heated by a Jotul "cigar burner" wood stove.  Mounted overhead (not directly above) is a squirrel-cage blower from a house-sized gas furnace.  I mounted a simple throttle plate that swivels on the intake to vary the out flow over the stove. The mounting bracket lets me swivel it to direct heat around the shop.  In the heat of summer it  has a nice cooling effect.

The other shop is a part of a pole building that has a propane gas furnace.  Being 16 X 26 with a pitched ceiling form 9 to 10 feet, the furnace will take the area from 0 deg. to shirt sleeve  comfort in less to half of an hour. The machines, however don't get as comfortable as quickly.  A mid-sized overhead fan distributes the rising heat.

On a historical note, in my  youth (mid 1950's), I knew a machinist who had built an accurate 3/4 scale J.I. Case steam tractor.  He ran most of his then antique equipment with flat belts and jack shafting on the ceiling. In the winter months he, would maintain a fire in the boiler (vented outside) to heat the shop, and would power the jack shafting with the tractor power takeoff. Interesting enough, he  had a separate pole building with a sawmill and 3 phase power.  More interesting was that he did not have a telephone.


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