# Help Choosing New Mill!



## bsmith918 (Dec 23, 2015)

I'll start with a little information about myself and what I plan to use a mill for.  I have a decent little shop at my house.  I mainly fool with guns, but who knows what else I will dabble in.  I have also consider knifemaking at some point in the future.  I have a lathe, welders, bandsaws, cold saws, and tons of firearm specific hand tools.  I have built quite a few AKM's from demilled kits, as well as AR pattern rifles, and Garands.  I have worked on quite a few others too.  I also dabble in refinishing.  This includes spray/bake finishes, blueing, and parking.  I would like to try out case hardening at some point.

With the above said, I am now looking to get my first mill.  I had originally planned to get a PM-25, but then the 727 showed up.  After thinking about it for a long while, I decided to go ahead and get it ordered.  Unfortunately, they were sold out and will not have any for a few more months.  They will have the 932 back in stock much sooner and I do like the larger table size, overall weight, and x-axis power feed.  The pdf model is likely not in my budget and not something that I see as a huge deal to me at this time.  So, should I wait for the 727 or go with the 932?  I am also looking to future proof myself with this purchase.  I have also looked into the Charter Oak 12z.  Does anyone have an opinion of this machine?  I have emailed some with Matt and will likely stick with a PM machine.  Also, any opinions on the vise and other accessories in the $199 accessory kit?  If there are better accessories in this class, let me know.  Thanks for any/all of the help!


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## Dan_S (Dec 23, 2015)

If you have the cash for the 932 or 940 and you can handle the weight and electrical requirements, get one of them, they are a more capable machine.

PDF is something you really want to get in my opinion. when you are boring a hole, it makes getting a consistent surface finish easy. it will also helps wen drilling a lot of holes, or when you are drilling in a difficult material.


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## wrmiller (Dec 23, 2015)

Capability wise, the CO 12z is similar to the PM940. There is a Charter Oak sub-forum buried under 'Other Machines' I think if you want to peruse the threads. I'm in there putting ball screws on my 12z.

I have bought two machines from Matt at Precision Machine and one (the 12z) from Paul at CO. Service has been great from both, and given my experience I'd buy from either again.


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## bsmith918 (Dec 23, 2015)

The weight and electrical is not an issue.  The standard 932 is already pushing my limited budget on this machine, especially since I had planned to get the PM25 originally.


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## coolidge (Dec 23, 2015)

Deleted


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## T Bredehoft (Dec 23, 2015)

Accessories....I purchased a PM25 last summer early, The 4" vise in the package, (value $79.00 or so).  The first thing I did when the machine was set up and clean, was to check the parallelism between the table and the top of the vise rails.......not good, out .005 side to side, out .002 or 3 front to back.  I flipped it upside down, on two 1 2 3 blocks, clamped it down and skinned the bottom. It was out, also hollow by .006 or 8 in the middle. It took about .015 to clean it up, I assume it was machined as green iron, not yet stabilized.  It's been fine since, the jaws are both square with the base/table, the mechanism clamps down on the rear jaw as it tightens.  Oh, I shimmed the back jaw.001 to make it parallel with the movable jaw. I guess I could have shimmed the movable jaw, but didn't. 

My experience with Matt and his staff has been really great, far better than I would have expected if they hadn't been praised highly here.


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## Plas62 (Dec 24, 2015)

I have the PM932 and have been happy with it. I was looking at the PM25 also when I purchased my mill and am glad I went with the larger mill. The only thing I would recommend if you can stretch your budget is to buy the DRO from Matt and have them install it. The DRO makes life a lot easier.


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## mksj (Dec 24, 2015)

Probably the PM-940 would give you the largest working envelope for a bench top machine and has some improvements over the PM-932.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-pm-940-at-garagewrench.37676/

I would also look at the PM-450G which is a Taiwanese version that has better fit and finish.
http://www.amazon.com/PM-450G-Milling-Machine-TAIWAN-Shipping/dp/B00VKXWO50
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm836s-pm450g.36559/#post-312650


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## bsmith918 (Dec 24, 2015)

Thanks for all of the opinions/ideas so far.  I'll certainly take a look at them all.


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## tmarks11 (Dec 24, 2015)

coolidge said:


> I recommend the PM-935TV



From the 727 to a 932 to a 935TV... $1800 to $2400 to $5400...

Our motto "Your money is our money" 

Coolidge is right, the 935 is a nice choice, and a knee mill is much more useful than a square column mill.  If it was me, knowing what I know now, I would jump straight to the 935TV.  But then I am crazy like Coolidge...

But back to you original question, I think the step up to the 932 is worth it.  Go for it.

wrt to the 12Z, coolidge used to have one and gave it away and now he has the 935TV.... my advice is to stick with PM.  If you like the size of the 12Z, then consider the 940M.  When you compare prices, remember the old adage "you get what you pay for".  Matt has a great reputation.


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## Dan_S (Dec 24, 2015)

tmarks11 said:


> .  But then I am crazy like Coolidge...


.
My plan has you both beat.  Once the wedding is over, and I finally get a new job, the 940 will either get cnc'd or become a second op machine, and the main machine will be either pm 10x54, or a sharp TMV. Same things going to happen with the lathes.


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## coolidge (Dec 24, 2015)

Dan_S said:


> .
> My plan has you both beat.  Once the wedding is over, and I finally get a new job, the 940 will either get cnc'd or become a second op machine, and the main machine will be either pm 10x54, or a sharp TMV. Same things going to happen with the lathes.



Ahahaha get some!


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## wrmiller (Dec 24, 2015)

tmarks11 said:


> wrt to the 12Z, coolidge used to have one and gave it away and now he has the 935TV....



Really? Wow... Having talked to Charles about why he decided to not keep the 12z and just leap up to the PM935, I'd love to hear your take on this and what you are inferring. Actually, never mind.


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## mksj (Dec 25, 2015)

Didn't know that  there was a baby knee mill smaller than the 935, but QMT has a PM-836S which may be worth looking at. When you consider the price includes clamp set, R8 collets,  a 4" vise and is delivered, it puts it very close to the 932-940 price range. Get a small Teco VFD for about $150, and you will have a very nice mill. I always regret not going to a knee style mill from the start. Previous post with another individual upgrading from a PM-25, and was looking at the PM450 or 836. If tight on a budget, PM450G would be my first choice at $3K, otherwise a baby knee. Worth thinking about what you want to do and have a discussion with Matt, might be able to swing something for you before the year end. I am saving my pennies to try to upgrade to a knee sometime next year, just do not have the rigidity I want in my bench top mill.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm836s-pm450g.36559/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PM-836S-8x3...133434?hash=item35f7a63c3a:g:hhgAAMXQlgtTBAiX


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## JR49 (Dec 25, 2015)

tmarks11 said:


> the 935 is a nice choice, and a knee mill is much more useful than a square column mill


Just curious, why is a knee mill more usefull than a square column?  please don't think I'm trying to disagree with your statement. Fact is, I've not yet even used a mill, so just trying to learn.  Thanks,  JR49


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## planeflyer21 (Dec 25, 2015)

JR49 said:


> Just curious, why is a knee mill more usefull than a square column?  please don't think I'm trying to disagree with your statement. Fact is, I've not yet even used a mill, so just trying to learn.  Thanks,  JR49



I wouldn't necessarily say more "useful" but perhaps more "versatile".

Because of this:

Not only can the head rotate but it can swivel and extend in and out, allowing one to cut more compound angles and bores.


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## tmarks11 (Dec 25, 2015)

A knee tends to be more precise in positioning than the head on a square column.  Beefier, more spread to the load means that it doesn't tend to sag as much as the head on a square column mill.  Makes it easier to get a precise z-height change. That doesn't mean that you can't get just as precise cuts on a square column, just that it is easier on a knee.

The flip side is that a knee mill weighs twice as much... at least.



wrmiller said:


> .. I'd love to hear your take on this and what you are inferring. Actually, never mind.


My post was innocuous; read it again. Any inferring is being done by you. Coolidge had the 12Z and now he has a 935.  But I have read more "I like my mill" stories about the PM variants than the CO (or IH) variants.


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## coolidge (Dec 26, 2015)

Deleted


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## Dan_S (Dec 26, 2015)

coolidge said:


> I guess these mills used to have some kind of milling attachment on the back of them so you could swing it around to use that. Realistically I think swinging it left to right within the table/work cube is probably all you would ever use.



Bridgeport, made a bunch of special heads, shaper, right angle, horizontal, & a cherrying head.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/bridgeport/page4.html









coolidge said:


> There's more, this style mill has a power down feed which most square column bench mills do not have. You have 3 different speeds, I'm told this is mostly used for boring. I believe you can setup auto stops and retracts.


The better larger bed mills like the pm-940, pm-932, pm-945 have this as well.


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## JimDawson (Dec 26, 2015)

coolidge said:


> This Bridgeport style head knee mill has a few more features. The entire head/motor/spindle is on a ram you can crank forward and back several inches. If you are machining a larger odd shaped part you can reach out further or retract back towards the column as needed. A square column bench top mill is fixed and does not move. Further the entire head/ram can swing 360 degrees around on a turret. I guess these mills used to have some kind of milling attachment on the back of them so you could swing it around to use that. Realistically I think swinging it left to right within the table/work cube is probably all you would ever use. Next as someone else mentioned the head not only tilts left and right but nods forward and back.
> 
> There's more, this style mill has a power down feed which most square column bench mills do not have. You have 3 different speeds, I'm told this is mostly used for boring. I believe you can setup auto stops and retracts. In this style mill the head once locked in place does not move, instead the knee moves up and down. Having used both style mills my opinion is its easier to get the knee style head dialed in square and true and keep it there since it never moves.



:+1:


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## sanddan (Dec 26, 2015)

I started with a square column mill and after 2 years upgraded to a knee mill. If I could do it over I would bite the bullet and jump straight to the knee mill. I had over $3500 invested in the square column mill, x power feed, 350 lb custom welded table, power on the z axis and 3 axis DRO and the best I could get for the package was $2000. Resale is also better with a knee mill so a better investment. The square column mill tends to flex and shake, even with the extra heavy base, and the gear head is noisy which can be irritating (its right at head level).


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## bsmith918 (Dec 26, 2015)

I'm not against a knee mill either and money isn't necessarily the deciding factor, but does play a part.  That PM-836 does sound VERY interesting.  Who all has that model?  I may hold off for a month or two and keep researching.  I really want to do this ONCE, at least for next few years.  Space is an issue, as my garage shop has a lathe, 80 gallon Champion compressor, large blasting cabinet, engine hoist, 8 foot workbench, mig welder, and welding table already in it.  I also need to be able to park one car in it.  I also have a small spraybooth and toolboxes.  I am VERY organized!

ETA:  Now I'm starting to like the PM-836S.  This would likely be as much mill as I would need in my current shop.  The price is really pretty good when you consider the included shipping and accessories.  I can do $4,000, but the larger mill at $6,000 is definitely pushing it!  I may call Matt on Monday and talk with him about it.  Someone talk me in/out of it!


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