# Adding some outlets and a new breaker box



## Aaron_W (Jan 9, 2018)

My main question is in bold, the rest of this is mostly background.


We are going to add more outlets and a light fixture or two at the house, but we have reached the capacity of the current breaker box so will have to add one. We were initially planning on mounting the new box close to the old, but on further reflection, all of the new outlets (probably 5 or 6) and the lights are going to be at the opposite end of the house. Rather than run wiring 40+ feet for each, it makes sense to us to mount the box closer to where the new outlets are going in meaning a longer run of the heavier gauge wire for the box (30-40 ft vs >10 ft), but quite a reduction in the the smaller gauge wire and conduit. Currently planning on all 115v 15A and 20A, but planning ahead to be able to add a 30A or even a 220v if required by future tool purchases. I'm thinking we would probably at least break even on wiring costs and it would definitely be less work stringing the wire.


*Just wondering if we are overlooking anything on location of the box, I don't believe there is any real advantage to both boxes being located immediately next to each other, except for not having to walk back and forth if a breaker pops and you don't know which box it is in. Only 30 or so feet apart, both in the basement plus we know which circuits are in which box so that is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.   *


I've done a fair amount of wiring, and am comfortable knowing how to choose the right size circuit / wiring etc to use but this will be the first time dealing with installing a new breaker box.  

I don't really like working with electricity so what we have done in the past and intend to do this time is run all the wires, install the outlets and such, then hire an electrician to look over our work and do the "honors" of the actual connection. This has worked well for us as it adds a professional set of eyes to make sure we didn't do anything stupid which is worth paying for an hour or two of their time. At least once before they have caught something the prior owner had done wrong that was missed on the pre-purchase inspection.


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## markba633csi (Jan 9, 2018)

Sounds like a good plan, and a sizable savings on the total bill since you are doing most of the work
Mark


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## 4GSR (Jan 9, 2018)

Just remember, putting in a branch circuit, you must run 4 wires, two hots, one neutral, and one ground.  And in the branch circuit panel, the neutral and ground cannot share the same strip.  And there cannot be a bonding screw installed on the neutral strip.  Just on the ground strip.  Mention this in case your not aware of this.  And your local codes may vary some too.


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## Ray C (Jan 9, 2018)

Strongly suggest you check local code before installing any new boxes.   When it comes time to sell the house, you could face problems with building inspectors.  Pay a local electrician just to brief you on code then, do the work yourself.  

Ray C.


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## Aaron_W (Jan 10, 2018)

I haven't really looked that far into the breaker box part of things yet, that may turn out to be something we just bite the bullet and have them do. Running a 220v for the dryer when we moved in was what caused us to hire an electrician the first time. 110 I've done many times but I was finding a lot of conflicting information on 220. We can still save ourselves on the outlet side of the job if we feel the box is too far out of our comfort zone and it may be.

We do our best to follow code, although mostly for the safety aspect. The house is 108 years old and we are done with moving so the last thing we want is to burn it down. It will be our kids problem selling this place when the time comes if they choose to. No reason to leave them extra baggage though, I just checked the city website and it does look like we will need to get a permit for that.

Thanks




markba633csi said:


> Sounds like a good plan, and a sizable savings on the total bill since you are doing most of the work
> Mark




That is why we've done it this way in the past. I see no reason to pay someone $75+ / hr just to run some wires, but it is well worth it to pay them to do the more complex stuff that done wrong could hurt someone or start a fire. We do most of the work on the house ourselves, my wife and I are pretty handy and my dad comes up when we have bigger projects that can use an extra set of hands. As a kid he would include me when he worked on the house. He also picked up some side jobs doing minor home repairs through realtors he knew and would bring me along as a helper on those jobs too so I grew up with the idea that part of owning a home was working on it.


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## Hukshawn (Jan 10, 2018)

What’s the brand of the panel? Most modern panels are expandable. The breakers can be switched out for tandems and quads to allow for more circuits.


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## Blackjackjacques (Jan 10, 2018)

Aaron_W said:


> My main question is in bold, the rest of this is mostly background.
> 
> 
> We are going to add more outlets and a light fixture or two at the house, but we have reached the capacity of the current breaker box so will have to add one. We were initially planning on mounting the new box close to the old, but on further reflection, all of the new outlets (probably 5 or 6) and the lights are going to be at the opposite end of the house. Rather than run wiring 40+ feet for each, it makes sense to us to mount the box closer to where the new outlets are going in meaning a longer run of the heavier gauge wire for the box (30-40 ft vs >10 ft), but quite a reduction in the the smaller gauge wire and conduit. Currently planning on all 115v 15A and 20A, but planning ahead to be able to add a 30A or even a 220v if required by future tool purchases. I'm thinking we would probably at least break even on wiring costs and it would definitely be less work stringing the wire.
> ...



I'd run a separate subpanel on the other end of the house closer to the branch circuits as you explained and for the reasons you explain re: fewer runs, etc.   You can get usually improved selective coordination by insuring the breaker serving the sub-panel is larger than any of the branch circuit breakers - at least for over-current conditions.  Short circuit conditions are frequently unpredictable with molded-case breakers as you are using.


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## tq60 (Jan 11, 2018)

Subpanel is the way to go period! 

Make a trip to your local building department and have good photos of current panel with cover on and off as well as name plate.

Have general cable length between panel and where sub goes and a list of what you plan on adding.

They will give advise to what code requires and if permit needed for do it yourself work.

This varies by area so check there as we would not have any clue.

The box stores have kits that include panel and breakers for good price so check to see what you want and get the next larger one.

Ask inspector about using 2 wiring options for inter panel wire.

A 4 conductor cord is easier to pull but size and cost are issues.

4 seperate wires can carry more current for wire size but harder to pull.

If using 4 wires 2 options....1 is large room of wire and use colored tape to identify each and this is valid but inspector can advise where and how often to mark.

4 different colors is no marks but more cost as more needs to be purchased.

We added subpanel in shop and cost per foot for the required cables for a 60 foot cable length was more than a 500 ft spool a cable so we have a huge amount left for wiring other things later with money left over.

Look at a conduit run for easier pulling but conduit effects current capacity too but old house it may be easier to telescope a conduit through.


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## Glenn Brooks (Jan 11, 2018)

I replaced an old small, sub panel in my shop building a few years ago, with a new, larger, 100 amp sub panel. Also added mucho new 110 volt and 200 outlets and circuits.

Turns out my biggest initial limitation was the power capacity coming into the house main panel from the street.  And the size/capacity of the existing main.  

Initially, I completely overlooked the requirement that the total power requirement coming out of my proposed new sub panel was entirely dependent on what the existing main could deliver.  

The power company in our area said some people have a lot of difficultly with older homes, as some existing panels are still 60 or 100 amp mains - with existing lower capacity street connections. Fortunately we have 200 amp service coming into the house, althougth I did need to upgrade our sub panel breaker and run new, larger size wiring to accommodate the sub panel.  

So if I were to do this again, I would  start planning my new sub panel at the street, and work inwards, through the main, then decide how the additional circuits could be configured.

Glenn


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## jim18655 (Jan 11, 2018)

If you're going to hire an electrician to make the final connections then call him in ahead of time for advice. He can recommend the cable and boxes. Your service panel might have maximum size for branch circuit breakers and he'll know what you can add.
A sub-panel will have less voltage drop for you branch circuits since the wire will be larger for most of the run to the outlet.


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## eeler1 (Jan 12, 2018)

Agree with everyone, especially Jim18655 above.  Notice that the discussion doesn’t have consistent use of terminology.  Worrisome.  Not saying you can’t do it, but you are clearly more comfortable running circuits than subpanels.

When I started buying machines, I had an electrician put in the subpanel to the shop area.  He helped me size the subpanel for my intended uses, installed it, and then showed me how to size the breakers for specific circuits.  I believe it was worth the expense.

Coming after your work to “check” it, I can see potential for trouble.  What do you do if you sized the wire wrong or used aluminum instead of copper or whatever or bought a subpanel that you can’t get circuits for or ?  

Your shop,but I’d suggest the consultation take place before instead of after.  Just my $0.002


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## JPigg55 (Jan 12, 2018)

Another consideration would be if you have or plan on installing a generator.
Depending on what you want to power from a generator could affect how you decide to go.
Things like where the breaker box is located vs where generator would be installed, new breaker box vs sub-panel, etc.
After an extended winter power outage, I had a standby generator installed some 10+ years after house was built. If I had it to do all over again, I'd have done the wiring a  whole lot different.


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## Aaron_W (Jan 14, 2018)

We have good access under the house ranging from around 7 foot (minus all the head knockers, pipes, rafters and what not) which is what we use as a basement, down to hands and knees crawl space. Only a small section is crawl on your belly and we aren't adding anything over there, so actually running the wires won't be too bad.

The existing panel is maxed out short of swapping out the singles to duplex type breakers. That is how they fixed the issue they found last time where one of the prior owners had run two circuits off one breaker. While we are only looking at adding 6 or 7 new lines, we are planning on something larger than the minimum sized box for our current plans. Probably like a 20 breaker panel to leave plenty of room for the future. The difference between a 10 and a 20 is not that much and we will have the installation cost regardless, so a few more pennies now to avoid paying more later. It is doubtful with the way things are going we will ever lament having too many outlets available.

One of the really positive features of the house is it was used as an office for about 30 years, so they upgraded a lot of the utilities. As a place of work they were also very good about following code. We even have some grounded or shielded circuits they put in specifically for the computers, and phone lines....   and do we have phone lines. The house actually came with a couple boxes of those old office phones with the switchboard buttons, we got some paper towel dispensers and butt gasket holders in the deal too.  

We are also right in the city, so I'm thinking available power won't be an issue, the electrical all looks like it was upgraded at some point after the prior owners bought the place in the 1980s.
Everything in the shop is 115v 20A or less. I could see that potentially being an issue if it was some of you guys with 220v and 440v 3 phase equipment, but the spiffy new blender I got for Christmas probably draws more juice than my Sherline lathe.

No plans for a generator. We have lived in areas where the power was out several times a year and sometimes extended periods. We went 2 weeks without power at one point. Here we are inside the city limits, power outages have been rare and very short lived.


After all this We will definitely be consulting with an electrician before starting the work. We are just in the early planning stages at this point, and this has been very good info. Not dissuaded at all from doing the work myself, but confirms my suspicions that adding a panel is a bit of a job and worth consulting with a professional.

Thanks


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