# How Do I Deepen Weld Fusion?



## Franko

Once the problem with the MIG was solved, I started tests on the welds I need to make.

I beveled the pieces and spaced them about a 10th inch apart. I ran the MIG at the recommended settings for 1/4" steel. There is one 3/8" piece and one 1/4" piece. I welded with .30 wire and used a oval weave push pass with about 1/2" of stick out. The weld looks very good to me.

But, when I cut and polished a section and put some nitric acid on it, it is obvious that I got good fusion on the top half of the weld, but no fusion on the bottom half.

What can I do to increase the penetration and fusion?
Widen the gap?
Grind the bevel at a wider angle?
Increase the amperage to recommended 3/8" settings?
Maybe do a non-weaving drag pass and then a weaving pass over it?


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## FOMOGO

You might be better off doing multiple passes, and use smaller circular motion to keep the puddle temperature up. I try not to have any gap at the bottom of the V, and leave just under 1/8th" of material at the bottom of the V on heavier material butted together, and run as hot as can with out blowing through. Mike


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## Karl_T

This is the classic problem with MIG on thick material.

The welder makes a difference.  I've got the beautiful blue box - Miller 252. For 1/2" steel, I Vee down 1/4" use flux core and CO2 voltage to the high side of spec, wire speed to the slow side. Then move along slow with a wide weld bead. It will fuse all the way to the bottom.

I used to have a Century. Had to pull the stick out for anything over 1/8".  A pass with stick welder using 6011, then a second with the MIG makes for a purdy and strong weld.

Karl


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## Alittlerusty

Mig is notorious for making pretty but shallow beads multiple passes more heat is the ticket.


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## Franko

Thanks for the suggestions, Fomoco, Karl, Alittlerusty.

I think I'm stuck with the 10th inch gap, as I already cut the material for that.

So, I leave the bevel about like it is (it leaves about a 10th at the bottom of the 1/4" piece.
Make a straight pass at about one more click on amps and the same wire feed, trying to keep the cup close and the weld at the bottom of the bevel.
Then make another pass with a weave to finish off the top.

Should I grind a little off the top of the hump of the first pass before making the second?

I could be wrong, but I've found that I get better fusion further in the corner of a T-joint if I drag pass. (the bottom of the bevel is much like a T-joint) It seems that the shape of the puddle is more pointed on drag passes and flatter on the leading edge of push passes. Does that hold water?


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## chuck

Franko,
030 wire is not recommended on metal thickness greater than .105. Your hobart manual may say it will,,,,I have tons of literature that says it won't. 
`.035 can weld up to .250 thick material . 
Can you get .035 70s3 wire, a liner rated for that size of wire and .035 drive rolls? My hobarts all came set up this way but I bought them from welder supply houses.

The stick out from the contact tip to the weld puddle should be about 1/8 inch using .035 wire.
The voltage, use a voltmeter, should be about 22 volts, running.
The wire speed will need to be about 370 inches a minute using .035 wire. Measure the wire coming out for 6 seconds, multiply that number by ten to get your wire speed. We have amp meters on professional welders and set the welder at 200 amps for 1/4 steel.

The contact tip needs to protrude from the nozzle at least 1/8 inch, you will probably have to cut about 3/8ths of an inch from the end of your nozzle. 70s6 wire is not a multipass wire, 

YES, it says it can multipass, that means 2 passes only, it is only to be used as a multipass in some situations using low carbon steel where each pass contacts primarily base metal such as a fillet weld. Lincoln electric , the James Lincoln foundation has several good books, for very little monetary value, that explains this very well.

Consumer welders are very optimistic in their sales literature,,,,,,,,,,,.030 wire vaporizes at 22 volts and 200 amps, it will not be able to heat the metal enough to get good dilution with the base metal. This is called lack of fusion, not lack of penetration..you will get dilution with the wire you are using, the problem is not enough dilution and the metal cools to quickly, which means the granular structure has not had time to properly grow, the grain size will be very fine, and the grain boundary will show up as a line under higher magnification,,,,the carbon dioxide, monoxide cycle is shortened which leads to porosity.

Penetration is joint design, 100 percent penetration means there is an open root weld prepared or one is grinding the back out and welding from both sides.

How many passes? One root, two fills, no cover,
I would not use that joint design, Use an outside corner joint, just as strong and no preperation as in grinding bevels, .....inside corners just about touching is the only prep needed.
Your bevels are to large, try to keep that included angle between 45 and 60 degrees. 
When stick welding we use large bevels, to get the 6010 in tight. Not necessary with mig.

The root at a tenth of an inch is good, I set them at an eigtht on quarter steel.

All bare wire mig is push. If perpendicular is 90 degrees, the perfect push angle is 5 degrees from perpendicular to the weld joint. The root fill and cover passes are all done with push passes. Dragging bare wire mig causes lack of dilution with the base metal, porosity and smut in the weld, again, the welding books from the James lincoln foundation explain all of this fully.

Well, I don't mean to sound harsh, ,,,I've been doing this for 40 years, know to much I guess
Chuck


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## Franko

Not harsh, Chuck. I need to hear that. I'm trying to learn.

My contact tip is about a tenth of an inch inside the cup. I'll move that out as you recommend. I may be able to push the cup on a little further.

By "outside corner joint" do you mean just butt the two pieces with a gap?

I was looking at the puddle when I was pushing the weld and noticed that the puddle was pointed, so I was wrong about that.

I was looking at the Lincoln web site regarding penetration and found a section that advised that smaller diameter wire penetrates more. I first saw the notion on a welding forum site and they all said it was wrong, but there it was, right in the Lincoln site.

*From Lincoln: Things that effect penetration*

*Electrode Diameter: *when welding with two different diameters of the same electrode and at the same current level, generally more penetration is achieved with the smaller diameter electrode than with the larger diameter electrode (see *Figure 5*). If you look at an end slice of each size wire, the smaller diameter has less cross sectional area than the larger diameter. As the same amount of current flows through each electrode, the concentration or density of current is greater in the smaller diameter electrode than in the larger diameter electrode. As a result of this higher current density, the smaller diameter electrode will have greater weld penetration than the larger diameter electrode. Note however that every electrode diameter has a maximum current density before the welding arc becomes very unstable and erratic. So as current reaches a certain level, it will become necessary to increase the electrode diameter.
I did a second test weld and it looks to be ok. The Hobart Handler 190 MIG welder was set at 70 amps and wire feed was at 6. I drug the first pass as close as as I could, dragging the cup on the bevel. The bead did not quite come up to the level of the top of the bevel. The acid test shows a couple of small gaps at the edges of the second pass. I probably circled the weave a bit too wide. All other parameters, such as bevel and gap were the same as the first test.

I think I picked up some contamination from the edge of the bevel where it wasn't ground.


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## T Bredehoft

On behalf of Franko and the rest of us non-welders, many, many thanks for the instruction and the information behind it.  I've never tried to weld more than  .090 material with MIG, made a lot of bubble gum before I got it to flow at all. I'll need a bigger welder to weld anything bigger, so I don't plan on it, but if the need arises, I've got more background than I ever had before.


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## Franko

My sentiments exactly, Tom. This place is rich with knowledge and kind people who are generous with it.


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## Franko

Karl_T said:


> This is the classic problem with MIG on thick material.
> 
> The welder makes a difference.  I've got the beautiful blue box - Miller 252. For 1/2" steel, I Vee down 1/4" use flux core and CO2 voltage to the high side of spec, wire speed to the slow side. Then move along slow with a wide weld bead. It will fuse all the way to the bottom.
> 
> I used to have a Century. Had to pull the stick out for anything over 1/8".  A pass with stick welder using 6011, then a second with the MIG makes for a purdy and strong weld.
> 
> Karl



My TIG will do stick, but I haven't tried it since I was in college. That's all I was able to do — Stick it. I got some e6011 1/8"  rod to practice with but haven't gotten around to it yet. I can TIG without sticking it, so I think I'll have a little better success with it now.

One thing I like about MIG is that you can use two hands to steady it. Same with stick, I imagine.

I can TIG weld ok, but I never even came close to success gas welding.


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## chuck

Frank that is correct about wire diameter, use the smaller size. The problem is you are past the current carry capacity of 030 wire, it is stable to maybe 160 amps, it cannot handle 200 amps,. At 70 amps you are shy of the proper amperage of 200 amps by three times. You should be at 4400 watts for 1/4 steel. If your arc is stable at 70 amps you are probably at about 13 volts which is good for 22 gauge metal or 900 watts.

With 1/4 inch steel your two wires that will handle 200 amps are 035 and 045 diameter wires. And you are correct, you should choose the 035 wire.

Professionally, we don't short circuit 1/8 inch and over, we use pulse. On small weldments, short circuit is okay on thicker steels as the part gets hot and the weld has time to do its thing. On large weldments the mass cools the weld to fast and lots of cracking can and does accur. Pulse puts tremondous amounts of heat into the weldment virtually eliminating cracking. On weldments over 1/2 inch thick, we do not use bare wire pulse. We use flux cores, 1 and 8 we us a lot.
Chuck


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## f350ca

I had all but given up on using the mig because of lack of fusion on heavy parts. Did some more research and ran across tri-mix gas for the mig. It has 2 or 3 % oxygen with the argon CO2. Absolute night and day difference in the welds. ,035 wire is now like welding with 1/8 stick. Parts actually get hot now, with the argon CO2 I found the welds cold. But its virtually impossible for me to weld less than 1/8 material with that mix, continuous blow throughs unless I get the voltage down to where I can't get a stable arc. Might be worth a try.


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## randyc

I'm a hack welder but why wouldn't you want to make a pass from the opposite side too, after grinding out the root of the first pass ?  As well as enhancing penetration, it minimizes the plates pulling away from the desired angle (by attempting to equalize thermal stresses on both sides of the joint).

I'm equipped only with a Miller 211 MIG so I'd  be inclined to stick weld a joint like that one.  Having said that and given the current limitations of the small MIG welder that you're using, I'm impressed by your results !


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## chuck

2 or 3 % oxygen with the argon CO2.
Answer,  We use argon with 2% Oxygen for spray, only works on high currents, fallen out of favor because pulse is all position.

I'm a hack welder but why wouldn't you want to make a pass from the opposite side too, after grinding out the root of the first pass. 
Answer, Welders are lazy. And grinding makes a mess . My roots look as good on the back side as they do on the other side. If it can be welded from both sides  that is the way we do it. Usually on thick steels, greater than 1/2 inch.


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## Franko

Randy, I can't weld from both sides because I can't have a bead on the inside because the tool box has to fit fairly tight inside the frame. I could contour the corners of the box with a hammer to clear an inside bead, but somehow that doesn't seem like a good idea.

Chuck, I'll check out what I'd have to do to make .035 wire fit in my rig. If it isn't practical right away, do you think the quality of my last test weld will be sufficient for this application?

[edit note: See post further down regarding .o35 wire and drive roll]

Here is a truncated isometric sketch of what I'm building. It is an 18" x 42" trolly to go under a heavy duty lower tool case that will be a stand for my new PM1228 vf-lb lathe. Heavy duty leveling casters attach to the angle on the right. I estimate that the total weight it will ever have to support is about 1200 pounds. The lathe is 500#, tool case 200#, which leaves a generous 500# for tooling and chucks that will be stored in the case.

The 6x6 angle on the right as well as the bar the stationary wheel brackets are welded to are 3/8" thick. The bar with the wheels pivots on a 1/2" bolt so the stationary wheel side can be leveled with the vertical bolts against tabs on the bar. The gussets on the right side probably won't be necessary. The original plan was to use 1/4" stock, but I found a 6 x 6 x 3/8 angle drop at my supplier.


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## Franko

I did a break test on that second test weld. I put it angle up on my 20 ton shop press and squashed it. I can see no failure of the weld. This piece was just a little over an inch wide, so it's less than half the length of the welds that will be used.


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## Franko

chuck said:


> Can you get .035 70s3 wire, a liner rated for that size of wire and .035 drive rolls? My hobarts all came set up this way but I bought them from welder supply houses.
> Chuck



Shouldn't be a problem with the .035 wire, Chuck. The stock Hobart Handler 190 liner is good for .030-.035 wire, and the drive roller has two grooves and is reversible to use with either .030 or .035 wire. I'll make a run to Air Gas tomorrow to pick up a roll of .035 70s3 wire.

I  purchased my Hobart at Northern Tool. I purchased the Syncrowave 210 TIG at CyberWeld.

I notice on the welding chart that amps and speeds are a click less for .035 wire. According to their documentation, the voltage you recommended should be in the amperage range indicated on the chart.

What is the difference between o70s3 wire and 070s6 wire?


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## chuck

Franko said:


> What is the difference between o70s3 wire and 070s6 wire?


s6 has more maganese and silicone, the first is for strength, the second for de oxidizer. S6 should not be multi passed, the weld deposit picks up maganese from the first pass, making the second pass to hard and brittle, to make it simple. This problem is intensified on structural shapes which are A36 steel, considered a medium carbon steel, ,,,
gotta go
Call airgas, they may not have it in stock, garland steel may, don't let them price gouge,,,


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## chuck

garland welding supply, not steel.
yes your weld will hold your lathe and cabinet


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## Shepherd

Very noob question, but wouldn't preheating the weld area help?


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## FOMOGO

Really no need to preheat on mild steel. Mike


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## Franko

Shepherd, I don't know the answer to that. I had a small 110v Marquette MIG 20 years ago. Pre heating helped with it. My guess is that pre-heating the material I'm welding with the equipment I have now is probably not necessary. Or, if it is, I can just wait until summer and it will pre-heat itself. 



chuck said:


> yes your weld will hold your lathe and cabinet



Chuck, thanks so much for your help and advise. Believe it or not, I'm listening. It is my nature to question the whys of things.

I'm a practical engineer. I don't know the math, but a lifetime of experience has given me some insight for what is strong enough by seeing things I or others have made that fail or hold up.

No one in Dallas has any s3 wire smaller than 50 pound spools. I doubt one of those would fit in my machine.  
Even a check of the web only located a couple of sources that have it. Granger has it online but not locally, 
and like everything they sell it's 4x more expensive than anywhere else. 
I found and ordered a 2# spool from Zoro, but it won't get here until sometime next week. 
That may or may not be soon enough for this project.

I'll make a run to AirGas and pick up a spool of S6 .035 wire and a couple of tips. I can weld the wheel brackets this weekend and try to hold off on the multi-pass welds until next week. I don't expect to receive my lathe for another week or two.

This has been a fun learning experience. Thanks to all who contributed!


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## E350

*chuck*:  Thank you for your detailed answers.
*Franko*:  Thank you for starting this thread and posing this question.

If you guys will permit me to further this line of questioning by asking:  

I have to weld 1/2" thick 2" bar to relocate the two lower attachment arms for a 160 lbs. garden tractor Gannon Earthcavator dirt working implement.
My welder is a Millermatic 350P 
I usually run .035 wire but it will handle .045 and supposedly the machine is capable of welding 1/2" steel in a single pass.  
I will practice on practice pieces first, but as far as set up goes:
What type of wire is best?
I assume that I have to buy some .045 tips?
I assume that I can use the same rollers (they are for steel not aluminum)?
I assume that I can use the same liner? 
Any suggestions for the settings on the machine?  (There is a cheat sheet flip down card on the machine which I can use if you don't desire to comment.)


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## Franko

That's a nice welder, E350.
The Spec sheet for the Millermatic 350P says the standard liner is good for both .035 and .045 wire.
The drive roller is reversible and has 2 grooves. So you will need to reverse it so the proper groove drives the .045 wire.
My Hobart handler has the same double duty drive roller and liner set-up, but for .030 and .035 wire.
You will need to get some .045 contact tips if it didn't come with some.


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## rick9345

When I do not have any time constraints
Choice of Mig, Tig, Stick
I always choose Tig ,it gives me more confidence in the weld I like being able to see what I am doing,no smoke no spatter,usually less clean up.
opinions will vary


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## chuck

E350 said:


> I have to weld 1/2" thick 2" bar to relocate the two lower attachment arms for a 160 lbs. garden tractor Gannon Earthcavator dirt working implement.


http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...o/Pages/flux-cored-wire-selection-detail.aspx
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ded/Pages/flux-cored-wires-self-shielded.aspx
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...lded/Pages/flux-cored-wires-gas-shielded.aspx

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...mables-Murematic-MurematicS3(LincolnElectric) available in 44 lb spools


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## chuck

E350 said:


> My welder is a Millermatic 350P
> I usually run .035 wire but it will handle .045 and supposedly the machine is capable of welding 1/2" steel in a single pass.


I use a 350P at work and the chart says not recommended on it. You realize short circuit should be restricted to under 1/4 inch clean NEW steel. Short circuit welds 1/4 inch steel fine, for dumpsters, gates, tables, just general welding. You should not use it for trailer building, implement repair, truck and car repair.  For these things you should be using the flux cores, specifically the gas shielded flux cores if possible. 



As to your tractor, I would use a 6010 and finish out with lincoln 7018,s one with a D designation,,,,


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## Franko

Can you elaborate on that, Chuck?

A guy I knew was a production welder who used flux core wire with gas shielding.
Is there any bad or useful result from using regular flux-core wire with gas?

[edited to remove dumb question and to add:]

After I posted that I looked it up. It's not regular flux core wire. Outershield®, UltraCore® flux core gas shielding wire is a different type of flux wire that adds alloying elements to the weld metal and affects the welding characteristics, but the flux does not protect the weld from oxidizing.


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## E350

*chuck*:  I feel that I need to ask some stupid questions.  I hope I don't offend you with my obvious lack of knowledge.  Here goes.

1.  I bought some ER70s-6 .045 solid core wire which I was going to use for this job.  Apparently it is not appropriate?

2.  I read your lincoln links for flux core wire.  Is there a flux core wire I could use in my 350P for trailer building, implement repair, truck and car repair?  From reading your links it would seem that the choice of a gas shielded flux core wire would be between:

1.  E70T-1s shielded by 100% CO2;
2.  E71T-1 shielded by 90% Argon 10% CO2; or
3.  "For semi-automatic welding in the flat position, the fastest way to join thick steel plate is with an E70T-4. It offers the highest semi-automatic deposition rates, up to 40 pounds per hour. This wire is widely used to join thick steels where there is no Charpy impact toughness requirement. This wire is also self-shielded, allowing it to be easily used outdoors."

If I can use my 350P to do structural work with the appropriate wire/gas combination, I would like to learn what to use and then practice how to use it...

3.  I also searched for "350P flux core" and came up with, among other things, this :

"The 350P doesn't have any parameters on it's front door chart for fluxcore wire, at least mine doesn't. It is intended for only in-shop use and has no pulse program for fluxcore either. I guess Miller doesn't really expect anyone to be using it for fluxcore welding.

It has mig and pulse parameters for solid steel wire and gas and aluminum and stainless wire, as well as some other alloys, I think copper and bronze, I never use the other alloys so not familiar with it that way. Parameters for running fluxcore in a 350P have to either come from a slide chart or from the wire manufacturer or from seat of the pants.

I have not run a dual shield wire in my 350P but have run fluxcore self shield, both in mig and pulse. I used the solid wire and gas parameters as the starting point and adjusted from there."

http://www.millerwelds.com/resource....php?18604-gas-shielded-flux-core-weld-faults

4.   "As to your tractor, I would use a 6010 and finish out with lincoln 7018,s one with a D designation,,,,"  I searched for this and learned that these are rods for arc welding?  Do you recommend arc welding for trailer building, construction, and farm implement repair?  If so, what do you recommend for an arc welder?  Finally, apparently I naively thought that by buying a large high amperage mig welder that I could weld thick materials such as 1/2" steel.  If I need an arc welder to do that, please let me know.

Your help is truly appreciated.


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## chuck

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...-theory/Pages/fcaw-usability-designators.aspx
Frank this explains what fcaw wires are and what they are used for. The question why they are used will have to wait my key board needs replacing.



E350 said:


> I bought some ER70s-6 .045 solid core wire which I was going to use for this job. Apparently it is not appropriate?


I don't know what steel is in your implement attachement. to be safe i would use a low hydrogen rod. or a low hydrogen gas sheilded flux core, that multi passes.. high tensile steels, such as t1 are often used in booms and such, and are absolutly not to be mig welded. mig wires offer little fatigue resistance, the impact of a loader bucket, concerns me, the repeated abuse will cause the mig weld to fail in the HAZ, heat affected zone, on high tensile steels.  


E350 said:


> 2. I read your lincoln links for flux core wire. Is there a flux core wire I could use in my 350P for trailer building, implement repair, truck and car repair?


Yes, several, the above links tell you about the applications of the fcaw wires.


E350 said:


> I also searched for 350P flux core and came up with, among other things, this :
> 
> "The 350P doesn't have any parameters on it's front door chart for fluxcore wire, at least mine doesn't. It is intended for only in-shop use and has no pulse program for fluxcore either. I guess Miller doesn't really expect anyone to be using it for fluxcore welding.


You purchased a wire feed welder, not a mig welder. wire feed welders will weld with solid wire in the mig , metal inert gas mode, using short circuit, pulse or spray. It will also weld all fluxcore wire types just as well. You will need a fcaw-g wire that will multi pass as a 1/2 single pass weld requires around 500 amps, ,,,
I'll quit welding if they make me weld at 500 amps!!!!! The 350 p will not put out 500 amps, and most hobby welders will have trouble with 200 amps on any out of position weld.


E350 said:


> 4. "As to your tractor, I would use a 6010 and finish out with lincoln 7018,s one with a D designation,,,," I searched for this and learned that these are rods for arc welding? Do you recommend arc welding for trailer building constrtuction and farm implement repair?


arc welding is a lot easier in my opinion,,and faster, especially for repair work.


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## chuck

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...UltraCore-UltraCore71A75Dual(LincolnElectric)
this fluxcore-g wire should be available or can be ordered from any welding supplier in 33 or 50 lb spools, low hydrogen too.


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## chuck

reference and how to
http://www.jflfoundation.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PH
http://www.jflfoundation.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=L


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## E350

*chuck*:  Will buy and try and practice with:  UltraCore® 71A75 Dual
It looks like I can use my existing 75Argon/25CO2 gas mix.
I will have to get chipping hammer/slag brush.  Any suggestions?

One more thing, what would you recommend for an arc welder for 1/2" steel?

I will study, practice and, hopefully, learn.  Thanks


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## chuck

Franko said:


> Is there any bad or useful result from using regular flux-core wire with gas?


the deoxidizers in SELF shielded flux cores must have exposure to the oxygen in the air. DO NOT USE SHIELDING GAS WITH SELF SHIELDING WIRES. There is a good reason for this and it has to do with the aluminum in the reaction. I don't remember the chemistry behind this but it is specically mentioned in one of my books or literature.


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## chuck

E350 said:


> One more thing, what would you recommend for an arc welder for 1/2" steel?


e350 start new thread on stick welders this one needs to stay on track


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## E350

10-4...


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## chuck

http://pc.arcelormittal.com/NA/plat...ts/Applications/ARCELORMITTAL HOW TO WELD.pdf


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## E350

Ordered it.  I will read it.  And then I will ask more questions.

http://www.jflfoundation.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PH


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## Franko

Thanks to the help in this item, I've completed the welds on the left side wheel assembly for my stand.
Some aren't the prettiest but I'm pretty sure they will hold.

I'm waiting until tomorrow for the spool of 70s3 wire to weld the side pieces that require multi-pass welds.


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## chuck

Franko said:


> Some aren't the prettiest but I'm pretty sure they will hold.


They'll hold. And paint hides a lot of ugly, just kidding, The technique, with mig, is to move forward and backward, forward gets to the toe of the fillet weld, then back up a little to fill the weld, this gives the pleasing ripples. Most gun motion with mig is forward and back, no side to side. The roots may need a little side to side, if that is the case then on the next root lower your voltage and wfs . After the roots are in turn the welder bach up to the proper settings for the fill passes.


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## Franko

chuck said:


> They'll hold. And paint hides a lot of ugly, just kidding, The technique, with mig, is to move forward and backward, forward gets to the toe of the fillet weld, then back up a little to fill the weld, this gives the pleasing ripples. Most gun motion with mig is forward and back, no side to side. The roots may need a little side to side, if that is the case then on the next root lower your voltage and wfs . After the roots are in turn the welder bach up to the proper settings for the fill passes.



Oh, now you tell me, Chuck.  I moved the torch slightly side to side on the T-welds in hopes to be sure it melded to both pieces.

I have a very hard time seeing what I'm welding after the arc starts. This causes me to veer off course and never be sure when I am at the end of the material.

I have the shade on my lens set to 12. I have a cheater lens on my hood which works very well, except in the glare of the arc. I get absolutely no flash with the auto darkening helmet I have.

Is there a trick to seeing what you are welding? I know a couple other guys who say they have this problem, too.

Question #2: Is there any special technique to welding vertically that's different from a horizontal weld?
If I push the weld, it will be easier for me to see if I run the bead up.

Jody (welding tips and tricks.com) says to use a triangular weave on vertical welds, basically tracing the edge of the puddle.


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## E350

Franko said:


> I have a very hard time seeing what I'm welding after the arc starts. This causes me to veer off course and never be sure when I am at the end of the material. ...  Is there a trick to seeing what you are welding? I know a couple other guys who say they have this problem, too.



Count me in that group Franko.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## markknx

Yes a triangular weave works most of the time. Keep it tight wait for the puddle to flow in at one side then move to the next and let the puddle flow in then move up to center of the joint holding long enough to  fuse the joint drop back down just above the start and repeat.

The issue from last weak looks like you tried to fill the whole joint in one pass. Never do that on a weld where you need good pen. always run a nice root pass to keep the heat focused on the joint. If you want full pen bevel the steel more. make sure you are burning in good as you weld.

Turn the hood down to 10 shade and see how that works. if you can see there then you can try 11. Also it help to wear dark color shirt/sleeves. this will keep light from reflecting into the inside of the hood, the more light in there the harder it is to see the puddle.

Mark


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## Franko

Thanks Mark. I'll give that a try. The revised tests were a root pass and then covered with a single pass fillet weld. I purchased a spool of S3 wire for those welds.

I may need more practice on the vertical triangular weave. I attempted the first corner and It was eating it up from all the heat. I had turned my volts and feed down a notch. I did the rest of the vertical root weaves with a slight zig-zag to keep the hot part of the weld from poking through the gap.

I attempted one fillet weld with the assembly vertical. It was a tragedy. Large glumps of molten metal dripped and sagged. I ground it off and turned the stand so I could weld down on the fillet welds. I tried the push pull torch movement, but it looked very bad, so I ground it off and re-welded it with my familiar oval weave that turned out pretty good.

I learned a lesson. Don't try something new on something you can't throw away.

A weird thing happened on the last fillet weld. The last third of it was pitted, like it wasn't shielded. I ground off the pitted part and ran another pass which looked fine.

Clamping it straight and square was a long process, but It is very square and level.

So after all the excitement, I'm done with the big welds. Tomorrow, I'll cut the box support angles and drill a bunch of holes so I can pocket weld them in place. Once that's done, I can put the wheels on it and roll it around and play with it. Then I have to disassemble and prepare it and paint it.


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## markknx

some times one pattern works well for a join and others it don't even for the same guy. machine settings ground location. If there is much of a gap then you have to just pause real quick at the center and stay right on top of the puddle. Yes good idea not to try something new on a keeper part. vertical welds are the hardest to do but with a little practice you can get it. when you watch videos like Jody's keep your eye on what his puddle is doing. He does some great videos
Mark


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## Pcbye

Unfortunately I didn't have time to read all the responses, but from lots and lost of welding over the years and a good machine -- Miller Invision 352Mpa -- here  are some rules of thumb.  I suspect most charts will give you setting using 100% CO2.  If you are using C20, or C10, like I do, you need to crank up the parameters as much as 20% for each reduction in CO2 you have if you don't have a chart to tell you.  When welding two pieces of dissimilar thickness you might go up as much as one thickness in parameters to the heaviest material and wash towards the heavy side down into the bottom then just touch up the thin edge until it just breaks down.  If you are welding on a heavy plate, table or Jig, take that into account as it will pull the heat away quite fast from where you are clamped or have extra heat sink.  Use the push technique always unless you are welding really thin sections or just can't get in there to do it.  Have about 10-degree lead at most.  A slight uphill run will increase penetration at the expense of the visual quality of the weld.  As was mentioned, on real thick sections with a smaller machine, you may want to make a root pass.  Run Hot, Run Fast and clean it up, then make a cap pass -- think Pipe Welding.  Small Transformer machines break down quickly at high amperages.  You can hear it in the arc after a bit where is just looses the grunt.  Big transformers or inverters just keep going like the whole power company is behind it.  A good thing is to spend some time welding different things and keep a not book of settings.  Try some parameters that are way off -- voltage / wire speed -- and take some notes so when you see or hear something good or bad you can check you notes and make a correction.  Always write down that perfect weld / setting for reference too.


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## shawn

after turning it all the way up, the way to get more out of a mig is pure co2.   I prefer 75/25 though.  It welds purdy


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## TheFenceGuy

In order to get more penetration with your MIG use flux core wire.  You have to reverse the polarity on your welder, too.  Your ground will be positive and your trigger negative.  This puts most of the heat on your welding surface and not on your welding tip.  Also, shut your gas off. You don't need gas when using flux core.  Practice a little bit to get used to the difference because the welder will weld differently.  This setup will also allow you to weld galvanized metal with ease (outside in a breezy area though, smoke will kill you) and you will be better able to weld metal that is not perfectly clean.


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## Franko

Thanks for the comments, pcbye, Shawn, FenceGuy.

I'm using CO2 argon mix gas. Even though my rigs are small, I've never experienced them losing power or taking a nap. That's probably because I've never made a weld over 4" long. Even when I have long welds to do, I usually take them about 2" - 3" at a time and skip around to minimize warping. Another reason for the short welds is I'm more likely to get off line on a longer pass.

Both my machines have good welding charts on them, with good info on wire size, gas type, metal type and polarity. I do keep notes on anything that varies from the recommended settings.


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## scroggin

more heat transferred to the material you are welding gives better fusion, less allows you to weld finer material mig welding give low heat transfer. For some jobs you just shouldn't use a mig. 

Most of the ways to get better fusion have been mentioned. One that hasn't is pre-heating the material you want to weld. I would definitely avoid using a large weave, it allows more cooling of the metal the others are high voltage, low wire speed and heavier wire. When welding steel I use pure CO2 gas it gives a hot weld but a lot of splatter, it's  also more difficult  to get the welder running right with CO2.


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## Franko

I guess I should post the finished thing. I welded the angle brackets to the frame with plug welds (is that what they are called?). I drilled 7/16 holes about every 6-inches in the angles, clamped them to the frame and filled them up with hot stuff. I couldn't help putting the wheels on it and rolling it around. Who makes anything with wheels and doesn't prematurely put the wheels on to roll it around?


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## Quai_Oui

To get a full penetration on this material with MIG, make a U shaped weld preparation, and leave not more than about 1/16th" of material at the base of the U to the other side of the weld.
Try first with a piece of scrap.  Make sure you have enough current to form a small bead on the other side, and make a several passes to fill the prep area.  The first needs to be small and just a bit wider than the gap, gap should be between 1/16th " and 1/8th", more towards the 1/8th ". The filler should blend into the parent material on both sides.  Then place the subsequent runs.  Good practice would have the root back gouged and ground, or for a small weld like this ground out and welded from the other side, unless you cannot get at it such as with small diameter pipe work.  If you get a good bead on the back of the root weld, then you need not do anything more, it will be satisfactory and of sufficient strength.

Good welding will have a reinforcement left on it to make up for the HAZ (Heat Affected Zone).  Providing the weld is larger than the parent material then you should achieve close to full strength.


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## E350

*Franko*:  Just wanted to let you know that I cut up a 1/8" wrought iron steel handrail last weekend and rewelded it to fit another area and the weld runs/joints were so short that I could not strike an arc with the stick welder so I busted out my mig and thought wow this is easy and I can weld and I laid beautiful beads and then when I ground them down (because it has to look pretty and feel nice to hold because it is a handrail) I saw that the base metal had not even fused that all I had done was lay a bead on top.  So my guess is that it is back to square one to establish a puddle then drag or push it.  But quite frankly a mig has got two knobs which need to be both set right to work right and the right heat and the right wire speed to not build up too much fill metal at the expense of not heating up the base metal.  In a way, to me, it is more complicated than stick welding.

Quite frankly, I think if I can get this stick thing down, it will be good for me.

But I got to get the seeing the puddle but not hurting my eyes thing down first.


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## Franko

If it made a good bead but didn't penetrate at all, I'd think that it may be the iron isn't weldable. It may be like trying to weld cast iron. Or, it could be you didn't have hot enough arc.

I don't know how you would establish a bead with a MIG without piling up a gob of filler.


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## turnitupper

Franko,
First of all a disclaimer I am not a welder buy I have found that welding inside is a lot easier with a strong worklight of 500w or more directed on the joint will make seeing the weld a lot easier especially with the poor eyes which with I am equipped. Outside, I have a piece of material fastened to the back of my helmet with Velcro that shields the inside of the viewing area from extraneous light. Also I have found that a manual helmet i.e fixed shade gives better visibility at the expense of the auto darkening. 
John


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## E350

*turnittupper*:  GoodOnYaM8!  I was at the Airgas store yesterday looking for just that sort of helmet shield.  No luck so my guess is that I will have to fashion one myself.  Any chance you might post up a picture?


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## jpfabricator

Leave your setup like it is and use 2 passes. 1st hot and fast with a short back and forth stitch motion parallel to the gap. Then a cooler weave motion to fill the bevel and make a cap. Anything thicker than .250 will always benifit from multiple passes.

Sent from somewhere in East Texas Jake Parker


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## E350

*Franko*:  I guess what I am saying is that establishing a molten "bead" with a mig machine is easy.  But establishing a molten "puddle" of base metal below that bead is harder for me, and quite frankly the existence or nonexistence of a molten puddle of base metal is obscured by the fill metal bead, which in my case can sometimes look pretty but provides about as much strength as Scotch tape over a butt joint.

I agree with you, and quite frankly I am tired of piling up a bunch of filler.  I may try FCAW-G (100% CO2 gas) or FCAW-S (self shielding with no gas) but it's $90 to buy the replacment rollers to run it in my machine.  Should only be $45 for your machine.  Here is a great article on FCAW vs the GMAW ER70S solid wire that we typically use in our wire feed machines:

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...o/Pages/flux-cored-wire-selection-detail.aspx


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## chuck

E350,
You bought a fabulous wire welder and a very capable stick welder. What you are lacking is both practice and experiance. So, before you spend any more money let me explain some things that you are doing wrong.

First, all welds require a gap, except for fillet and lap welds. The weld is deposited between the metal, not on top of the metal. Welding is not a process of melting and refreezing steel. It is a process of liquifying steel, and allowing two liquid surfaces to recystalize into hopefully a single homogenous structure with similar grain sizes throughout. This depth of penetration (called dillution with the base metal)is very small, less than a 64 of an inch is usually adequate. Think of this not as a smooth plain, this liquid zone, but a zone of liquid metal surrounded by an area of jagged crystals of unmelted steel. The crystals grow along this boundery, interlocking with the unmolten crystals of steel. Like a zipper.  

Second, did you purchase the book "New Lessons in Arc Welding?" It is loaded with experiance and explains how to properly gap and bevel weld joints.
It has practice exercises. Until you practice all of the exercises and burn at least a hundred pounds of rod and wire, you will continue to get poor quality welds. This is as good a book as you will ever need for improving your skills. Is a hundred pounds enough? Probably not. 

Third, buying more wire and gizmos and expecting them to work any better with out investing any more time in learning them is not going to give you better results.

These are mistakes that you have made. 
The 7018's that you purchased are not forgiving and are not for the inexperianced welder and not easy to learn with. The 7018 rods you purchased have an intense focused arc, designed for deep bevel  joints, Narrow multipass stringer beads on high strengh difficult to weld steels. They require high currents to maintain high multipass temperatures and to burn out wagon tracks from previous stringer beads so that the weld deposit will pass xray and radiographic tests. It is not designed for cap or weave passes. 

I suggested a much more forgiving 7018, It is designed for the type of welding you are doing, ok, ???? I think your welding supplier is unloading excess stock onto an unsuspecting customer, you. You will like the rod I suggested. Go to Home Depot or Lowes and get some Lincoln 6011's They are an extremely easy to use rod for general work and for learning. OK,,,,,,,,,,

You bought an expensive multiprocess wire welder. If I were you, I would learn how to spray and pulse weld with it.  You should buy 90% argon and 10% CO2. This gas will allow you to short circuit steel up to 1/8 inch all positions. Spray steel up to 1/2 inch flat and some horizontal, and pulse unlimited positions unlimited thickness with one wire. E70 s3 wire. There are restrictions, learn your limitations, you have the  other Lincoln book I suggested. It tells you about limitations and restrictions on highstrength steels.

Remember the Gap!

Chuck


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## E350

*chuck*:  Thank you for your detailed responses.  They are truly appreciated.  My guess is that, even though I will admit that I am particularly good at making mistakes, it is conceivable that some or all of your advice may help others who come across these threads.  I have been reading the first book and I still have the second in my cart.

I didn't know that I needed to gap what was essentially an outside corner joint of 1/8" to 1/8" mild steel plate.  I assumed that the wire would cause a puddle to form collapsing the edges into each other and into the filler electrode.

Points taken.


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## chuck

E35o, Your welcome and it is a pleasure to me to be able to help. 

There is a lot of misinformation about welding and it is easy to misinterpret information in this field.

Is wire welding with short circuit easy? Well no, the same prep is required, the proper joint design applies to short circuit mig welding just as it does for most of the manual arc welding processes. A gap is a gap and an open root is an open root and must be dealt with and only with practice and proper instruction can these procedures be learned.

The AWS code D1.1 does not have any preqaulified welding procedures for structural steels that allow any short circuit mig on steels. In D1.3 the AWS does have some Preqaulified procedures for 1/8 and under for structural steels. And limited procedures that cover steel short circuit to 3/16ths. Short circuit has 3 problems, Lack of Fusion, Lack of Dilution with the base metal and Porosity. Both you and Franko have definately proven this. The world wide web will tell you otherwise. I mostly weld under ASME procedures. At work we don't weld any steel short circuit 1/8 and over. There are lot better ways and much better processes that don't have the lack of fusion, dilution and porosity problems using the same welder with just a change in gas and wire. And these processes are faster and easier.

 I don't own a pulse welder and use a lot of spray arc with 90/10 and 98/2% oxy. For out of positition welding I switch to e71t-1  flux core gas shielded  75/25, which means I carry 3 shielding gases. Sometimes have 5 or 6 other gas bottles to satisfy the full capabilites of all my welders, along with all types of wires. 

Pulse eliminates a lot of this. One gas for steel. Two wires for steel. Amazing.

At work I use the same welder you have. We use 2 gases and 2 wires for probably 95 percent of our welding. From 18 ga galvanized sheet metal to as thick as you want to get on a36 and some 514 steels under a 1/2 inch and T1 steel to one inch. I weld aluminum and a lot of 3 and 400 series stainless with two more gases.  One machine that pretty much does it all.


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## E350

*chuck*:  Cool.  I don't want to wear out my welcome.  Thank you for letting me post in your thread *Franko*.  I will buy the second book, and will continue to try to learn how to weld.  Sign up for a evening class somewhere when work allows and if they allow old guys like me to be students.  And when I am ready, I will ask you how you set up your machine for one gas for steel, two wires -- and also how to set it up and what gun for aluminum, etc.  My signature on another forum says "_Learning slowly..."_  I will add it here too...

BTW, I appreciate your reference to the pertinent code provisions, because D1.1/D1.1M:2015 STRUCTURAL WELDING CODE-STEEL is $548 for non-AWS members.  This is a left over from the guild system.  Nonprofessional purchases of the Uniform Building Code is also restricted in the same manner.  Although the UBC is required by local Building Officials to be followed for construction of structures, it is crazy expensive to buy, and 20 years ago you couldn't even buy it if  you were not a member.


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## turnitupper

E350 said:


> *turnittupper*:  I was at the Airgas store yesterday looking for just that sort of helmet shield.  No luck so my guess is that I will have to fashion one myself.  Any chance you might post up a picture?


Sorry no pics as the shield  has fallen to pieces after 10+ years but it is just a strip of self adhesive velcro attached to the back of the helmet and a couple of strips down the sides . I've found that thin leather or even better a dark tea towel [doubles as a sweat rag] keeps the sun getting into your helmet and annoying you. Hope this helps,
John.


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