# Who needs digital



## stuarth44 (Dec 15, 2021)




----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 15, 2021)

In many ways, I am totally with you on this! 

You highlight the difference between "taking the measurement" using some fundamental tool to transfer a spatial dimension, and the actual instrument with a scale, and a way of displaying it. Here too, we can either have everything sans digital, or a kind of half-way house of "mechanical digital", or the pervasive electronic "digital". The last one can have various ways of getting to the scale, from little rollers, all the way to moving interference optical aliasing between gratings. Given I need a headband magnifier assist to help me read a Mitutoyo vernier scale on a 0.001mm resolution micrometer, I do appreciate the big digital displays, but that's about the only thing I like about them.

I have a excellent condition Mitutoyo I got very cheap on eBay auction. It appears able to read to 0.001" easily enough, when checked against a full electronic digital micrometer good to 0.001mm ( about 40 millionths inch). I just love the thing. The space between the divisions allows an estimate to 5 tenths (inches). It tried against gauge blocks. It is simply repeatable, fast, no batteries, and a joy to use!




I am also attracted to the "mechanical digital" micrometer style, where the numbers show in digits on a display similar to a classic car mileage counter. Again - no batteries with that gadget!  I have to store my electronic micrometers with the batteries taken out because they will inevitably run them down, even when supposedly "off". I am considering a DIY modification to add a hard on/off switch, when I can find a type small enough (yes - I do open these things up)!

I do have my little collection of tools like yours, though I am still looking out for a decent hermaphrodite divider with quick-release adjust screw, and very hard point. Plated against corrosion would be a plus!


----------



## Boswell (Dec 15, 2021)

Need to have Digital = No
Like to have Digital = Yes

Actually have have
mechanical-Digital​Electronic Digital​Mechanical non-Digital​and I use them all at various times.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

Other than the DROs on the mills , I go with the old stuff . Dial verniers and beam type verniers for larger stuff . I use a trav-a-dial on the lathe which I love . The older divider / calipers still get some usage for layout work on occasion , but mostly go unused in a sealed bucket . 

Words for the wise ...................................................never put these older dividers in Evaporust , WD 40 rust remover etc .


----------



## Janderso (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Words for the wise ...................................................never put these older dividers in Evaporust , WD 40 rust remover etc


Oops.


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Other than the DROs on the mills , I go with the old stuff . Dial verniers and beam type verniers for larger stuff . I use a trav-a-dial on the lathe which I love . The older divider / calipers still get some usage for layout work on occasion , but mostly go unused in a sealed bucket .
> 
> Words for the wise ...................................................never put these older dividers in Evaporust , WD 40 rust remover etc .


Seen at every flea-market, these tools are notoriously prone to rusting.
I had one cleaned up small dividers laying about in a little way oil at the bottom the bottom of a plastic container. I had dropped there, and I figured It would come to no harm - but yuk! These things are all prime candidates for my little de-rusting and plating experiments. Even a few minutes to lay on a micron or so of nickel seems to work. The finish may not be shiny chrome beauty, but looks real nice, and definitely seems to stop the rust.

Even if working with a DRO, having the scribed lines Dychem blue or red, showing the boundaries of what you are trying to make, is real nice. Watching a CNC router munch it's way around to reveal a shape has it's charm, but when you see it come up to your scribed lines, its even better! One day, I want to have something I own do that!

[Edit: I will have to look up "trav-a dial". I don't know those   ]


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 15, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Oops.


So after you found them, and checked - do tell?


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

I've found out over the years , certain tools and Evaporust don't get along for some reason . These dividers and feeler gauges to name a few . The spring steel is the issue on the dividers , not sure why .


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Other than the DROs on the mills , I go with the old stuff . Dial verniers and beam type verniers for larger stuff . I use a trav-a-dial on the lathe which I love . The older divider / calipers still get some usage for layout work on occasion , but mostly go unused in a sealed bucket .
> 
> Words for the wise ...................................................never put these older dividers in Evaporust , WD 40 rust remover etc .


why? a divider is nothing more than metal? what could it do?

I have used internal dividers  when I had a long internal bore to work on. I could not get my snap gauges down that far, and at the time I didn't have a bore mic.  I also used it a few times for a quick check while running on the external.  I find that I can check much easier than a caliper. I do this for wood working, so it just came over. It gives me a feel for how I am closing on a diameter.  I do not have a dro on my lathe. I had an I gauging dro but found a dial much easier to read, then I replaced all that with direct a reading large dial on my crossfeed.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> why? a divider is nothing more than metal? what could it do?


See above post .  The spring steel doesn't like it for some reason . I don't know why .


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> I've found out over the years , certain tools and Evaporust don't get along for some reason . These dividers and feeler gauges to name a few . The spring steel is the issue on the dividers , not sure why .


so what happens to the spring steel?


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

The dividers fall apart ! The feeler gauges come out absolutely useless also covered in a " black crud " .


----------



## GrayTech (Dec 15, 2021)

Certain acids kill spring steel very rapidly. Vinegar is a definite no no. It loses its spring and breaks if flexed.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

GrayTech said:


> Certain acids kill spring steel very rapidly. Vinegar is a definite no no. It loses its spring and breaks if flexed.


Yes , but why ?   I found this out on my own and can't explain it to anyone , but I know it's the truth !


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

GrayTech said:


> Certain acids kill spring steel very rapidly. Vinegar is a definite no no. It loses its spring and breaks if flexed.


yes, but evapo rust is not an acid.  it's a chelated process.. think of it more like potatoes in water...  yea, I tried that once to derust these long, long bars for a wood working machine... it worked but it stunk ... I had to leave it in there for a long time...  Evapo rust is the same chelated process but no smell...

it does bond  hydrogen on the same molecule though.  I think the acid add a hydrogen atom, I think chelating uses hydrogen in the molecule ...
any chemists here that can corroberate.   Maybe I will take my spring steel cache cut a piece and leave it in there for a definitive test.
I would understand acid doing this... I'm not sure about evapo rust...

Not that I don't trust you Dave, but it's worth another test.   My back is out, so I am down for the count right now. The results of sitting around at my sons... not very supportive furniture.. (damn)...


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

Well , only one way to get to the truth ! I have to stop over work to say HI to everyone , but after that , I'll set up a test of sort . I have about 100 or so mixed dividers and will pick out a sacrificial lamb . I'll use the Rust Lick from WD-40 ( same as Evaporust ) . Lets see what happens !


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Well , only one way to get to the truth ! I have to stop over work to say HI to everyone , but after that , I'll set up a test of sort . I have about 100 or so mixed dividers and will pick out a sacrificial lamb . I'll use the Rust Lick from WD-40 ( same as Evaporust ) . Lets see what happens !


how long do you think is necessary? 1 hour - 2 hours - 3 hours... 1 day?
I should probably test all of them.
cut multiple pieces of the banding.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

Says 24 hrs . I think . I'll bring the WD-40 in and get a pic of the instructions and we'll go from there .


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

Gotta step out for awhile , but this will be tonights' entertainment .   Maybe we'll learn something .


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> Not that I don't trust you Dave, but it's worth another test.


 You trust ME ?


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Gotta step out for awhile , but this will be tonights' entertainment .   Maybe we'll learn something .


I couldn't see that, too small, and downloading it and enlarging doesn't help, not enough resolution.


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Yes , but why ?   I found this out on my own and can't explain it to anyone , but I know it's the truth !


BTW with ACID hydrogen embrittlement occurs.
that may well be the same for the Chelate process... testing will tell.

Spring steel may require abrasive only treatments...


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

I sanded off the coating on the banding, put the banding in water, took it out, waited a while and still no rust.

WHY???? isn't my hard water good enough??? I get rust all the time when I don't want it... NOW THAT I WANT IT NOTHING


----------



## Janderso (Dec 15, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> So after you found them, and checked - do tell?


I would say the Evaporust cleaned up the rust fine but there is a discoloring for sure.
They work for what I'm using them for.


----------



## Nutfarmer (Dec 15, 2021)

The is a good chance the the spring steel hoop at the top will fall into pieces if left to soak in Evaporust. Not always ,but it does happen. Don't know what you want to call it. I have had a pair fall apart in an overnight bath. The spring steel fell into pieces. Also it will ruin the finish on gauge blocks. Just my experience.


----------



## WobblyHand (Dec 15, 2021)

Someone gave me a handful of rusty dividers.  How to clean them safely?  Remove the spring steel?  Then soak them?  Something else?  The threads on them are really fine pitch, don't want to ruin them.

I had bought some Evaporust, but it doesn't like a good idea to use it on the dividers.


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

not sure why I can't get rust to form on these.  Still no rust ..

I can stick them on evapo rust, but I believe I need rust to see full results.
anyone got an idea how to get rust on them w/out screwing the test up?


----------



## stuarth44 (Dec 15, 2021)

great replies, I have a 300mm clock vernier like you pictured and a 150, the 400mm 16 inch chuck needed counterboring on the back to fit my Cazanueve mounting, out to 320mm, I used the outside calliper, had not as yet received the 20inch internal, so from the outside calliper, I made a rod to fit  it then I snuck up on the target so slowly, the result,an interference it, in fact unless you have telescopic tools or inside mic ,you cannot FEEL  where you are with a vernier?least I cannot


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

Is banding for crates made out of SS? I have removed the paint coating (black) sanded it, I used acetone to remove any remaining coating, still unable to get it to rust.

It is magnetic, but there are SS that are magnetic...

I can throw it in the evaporust, but I doubt this will prove anything.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

Nutfarmer said:


> The is a good chance the the spring steel hoop at the top will fall into pieces if left to soak in Evaporust. Not always ,but it does happen. Don't know what you want to call it. I have had a pair fall apart in an overnight bath. The spring steel fell into pieces. Also it will ruin the finish on gauge blocks. Just my experience.


Hey ! Same thing here . Back from work , they say they all miss me .   Of course I work with a bunch of  ers !  I'll be doing this experiment tonight and will keep the results up to date .


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 15, 2021)

Nutfarmer said:


> The is a good chance the the spring steel hoop at the top will fall into pieces if left to soak in Evaporust. Not always ,but it does happen. Don't know what you want to call it. I have had a pair fall apart in an overnight bath. The spring steel fell into pieces. Also it will ruin the finish on gauge blocks. Just my experience.


This is the kind of thing where we want someone who knows to tell us why this happens!

If it happens with a chelation agent like EvapoRust, then it might well happen with almost any other chemical rust removal procedure, including those urged on with a voltage.


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 15, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> not sure why I can't get rust to form on these.  Still no rust ..
> 
> I can stick them on evapo rust, but I believe I need rust to see full results.
> anyone got an idea how to get rust on them w/out screwing the test up?


If you have a steam cleaner thing, as used for kitchen floors, etc. and if there is any iron in them, try it.

After steam cleaning, leave in an oven for a bit. Getting the micro-surface exposed is what does it. That is why one should seal up the surface of new exposed cleaned metal by putting in boiling water, or using alkali, going for magnetite (a kind of "rust"), and then rubbing in oil. After I cleaned up a lathe bed with solvents, followed by steam-clean, I saw the whole thing turn orange in about 5 minutes. Washing soda seems to block the process, and then sealing with oil does work

Things thoroughly cleaned, then swabbed in vinegar, or pool acid, or almost any acid, and warmed up, should rust in air.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

One of these will be the sacrificial lamb tonight for testing . These were feeler gauges that Evaporust ate up and fell apart . Had a few radius gauges and thread pitch gauges that also went to $hit . We'll see what effect it has on the spring steel though .


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 15, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> If you have a steam cleaner thing, as used for kitchen floors, etc. and if there is any iron in them, try it.
> 
> After steam cleaning, leave in an oven for a bit. Getting the micro-surface exposed is what does it. That is why one should seal up the surface of new exposed cleaned metal by putting in boiling water, or using alkali, going for magnetite (a kind of "rust"), and then rubbing in oil. After I cleaned up a lathe bed with solvents, followed by steam-clean, I saw the whole thing turn orange in about 5 minutes. Washing soda seems to block the process, and then sealing with oil does work
> 
> Things thoroughly cleaned, then swabbed in vinegar, or pool acid, or almost any acid, and warmed up, should rust in air.


I don't have a steam cleaner.
so you are saying throw some iron into the mix?
sure.


----------



## benmychree (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Other than the DROs on the mills , I go with the old stuff . Dial verniers and beam type verniers for larger stuff . I use a trav-a-dial on the lathe which I love . The older divider / calipers still get some usage for layout work on occasion , but mostly go unused in a sealed bucket .
> 
> Words for the wise ...................................................never put these older dividers in Evaporust , WD 40 rust remover etc .


I quite agree on using non digital such as dial calipers and Travadial, also calipers and dividers and vernier calipers, especially the 50 division style; when I was an apprentice, I bought Starrett 12" caliper and height gage, all the shop had was 25 division calipers up to 72", back then I could read the 25s without magnification, that went away long ago, now need to use cheaters for the 50 division ---


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 15, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> I don't have a steam cleaner.
> so you are saying throw some iron into the mix?
> sure.


No - not at all. When I said "if there is any iron in them", I meant the Fe content in the metal pieces. Some alloy materials have no iron at all, or very little.

If you just scrub them clean, dunk them in vinegar, and then put them on a wire tray, or other means to hang them,  over some simmering water. One of those pots used for steaming vegetables would do. Maybe drop them into a rice collander strainer in the pot with a little water cooking in the bottom.

With enough heat, and wet air, you can corrode away even stainless steel. Even the best stainless steels, if stood in water, will rust a brown line along the interface where the water meets the air in a process called "differential aeration".  You can use calcium chloride to madly promote rust, but ordinary salt works pretty well also. Spread salt quite thick over the steel, and keep it wet with vinegar while heating the metal. That might best be done in a pyrex oven dish. You don't need to have it smoking hot. That kind of treatment surely must start to rot the metal quite quickly!


----------



## brino (Dec 15, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> anyone got an idea how to get rust on them w/out screwing the test up?



Maybe use them temporarily as the anode in a electrolysis tank.
I used a junk pair of slip-joint pliers once for this and they came out looking like I just got them off the Titanic.

-brino


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

OK , test is on ! These are the guini (sp) pigs . Cleaned out the plastic tote and filled the level as to both were fully submerged . They just went in minutes ago . I have to get up early so I'll check them at 7am .


----------



## WobblyHand (Dec 15, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> OK , test is on ! These are the guini (sp) pigs . Cleaned out the plastic tote and filled the level as to both were fully submerged . They just went in minutes ago . I have to get up early so I'll check them at 7am .


Those dividers look less rusty than what I am trying to clean up.  Be great to see the results.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 15, 2021)

Yes , we'll see . Remember this is WD-40 rust remover and not Evaporust . Although I believe them to be the same ..............maybe they aren't . 


WobblyHand said:


> Those dividers look less rusty than what I am trying to clean up. Be great to see the results.


----------



## ptross (Dec 15, 2021)

I'm no expert, but I believe the crumbling of the springs is the result of Hydrogen Embrittlement. it is not usually a factor in softer steel, but above Rockwell 32 or so it becomes an issue, so the arms of the calipers may not be affected but the hardened spring is. Electroplating or cleaning is a potential cause. Anyone interested should look it up, there's plenty written about it. 
Peter


----------



## ptross (Dec 15, 2021)

the second thing to avoid with evaporust is leaving any hardened parts half submerged. the area at the waterline will etch away (enough to spoil a precision surface). keep the item completely submerged.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 16, 2021)

Dividers were pulled with no apparent damage to the springs . They did clean up nicely . Rinsed them in water , sprayed them down with regular WD-40 and wrapped them in a towel . I'll get some pics up when I get back home this afternoon .


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 16, 2021)

I haven't pulled out my sample yet. later in the day to be 24 hours.
I have 2 left
one will wait for 2 days.


----------



## ptross (Dec 16, 2021)

I'll be interested to hear how you test the springs for any change. If I have read the descriptions correctly there may not be any visible evidence when you first pull them out but the embrittlement can cause loss of flexibility, leading to premature cracking. You might have to give them a multiple cycle test of some sort.
Peter


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 16, 2021)

Back in one piece although I feel like a pin cushion !   I'll post a pic of the two that were soaked overnight . I'll then put a few more in for 24 hours and we'll see what happens if anything .


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 16, 2021)

@woodchucker 
When I saw this video about first rusting a part (in a controlled way), then turning the rust into magnetite (bluing), I thought of you.
The magic stuff is hydrogen peroxide with salt added. It rusts in minutes!
Particularly - be warned about doing this to hardened parts. [4:20] The differential stress release from hydrogen embrittlement can have them go into a tragic self-destruct. Probably divider springs should not experience this!


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 16, 2021)

good video... might have to try doing the black oxide thing.
as far as rust... that boat already left...  But good to know.


----------



## WobblyHand (Dec 16, 2021)

I popped off the springs and put some dividers into some Evaporust.  We will see what happens in the morning.  The springs come off pretty easily. Hope I can get them back on tomorrow!


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 16, 2021)

Pics of the 2 I did last night . I did put 2 more small pairs in at 4 this afternoon and will leave them in for 24 hours for a comp . Still some dark spots but not bad . The threads are now workable which they WERE NOT when put in . All in all , maybe it worked and progress was achieved . I'll hit them with a brass wire wheel and then some scotch brite for a final process . The other 2 will be removed at 4pm tomorrow .


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 16, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Pics of the 2 I did last night . I did put 2 more small pairs in at 4 this afternoon and will leave them in for 24 hours for a comp . Still some dark spots but not bad . The threads are now workable which they WERE NOT when put in . All in all , maybe it worked and progress was achieved . I'll hit them with a brass wire wheel and then some scotch brite for a final process . The other 2 will be removed at 4pm tomorrow .


yes, but how about the spring steel, are you able to exercise it back and forth without breaking?


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 16, 2021)

Yes Jeff , no issues with them so far . I'll keep loading them all in until some break ............................................then I'll prove my point !   


woodchucker said:


> yes, but how about the spring steel, are you able to exercise it back and forth without breaking?


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 16, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Yes Jeff , no issues with them so far . I'll keep loading them all in until some break ............................................then I'll prove my point !


How you feeling? is the day of treatment the bad day, or the day after?


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 16, 2021)

Today . I had an 8 hr treatment . Other than them not being able to find a good vein , all is good . No ill effects as of yet .


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 16, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Today . I had an 8 hr treatment . Other than them not being able to find a good vein , all is good . No ill effects as of yet .


I told ya, you have to drink Guiness...


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 16, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> I told ya, you have to drink Guiness...


 Been to Ireland and now we have a plant down in Balto at the Diageo site . I'm more in favor of the HopHouse made by them but it's being discontinued . 









						Diageo Bar Academy | HOP HOUSE 13 LAGER
					

Everything you need to know about Hop House 13 Lager beer



					www.diageobaracademy.com


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 16, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Been to Ireland and now we have a plant down in Balto at the Diageo site . I'm more in favor of the HopHouse made by them but it's being discontinued .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


they also have smidicks, which my wife likes.. I'm not a fan, My son calls me a Guiness snob, but I like what I like. He goes for IPAs.  Once you aquire a taste for Guiness you realize that it's less bloating than the carbonated beers.

And Guiness solves all problems... if you believe the advertising... it will make you better looking... oh wait that hasn't worked for me.
you'll be muscular, oh damn, lost those ...
you'll be attractive to all women... oh more like fly repellent...
Oh well, but it tastes great.


----------



## brino (Dec 16, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> And Guiness solves all problems... if you believe the advertising... it will make you better looking... oh wait that hasn't worked for me.
> you'll be muscular, oh damn, lost those ...
> you'll be attractive to all women... oh more like fly repellent...



You're probably just not using enough!
Brian
(aka -brino)


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 17, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Today . I had an 8 hr treatment . Other than them not being able to find a good vein , all is good . No ill effects as of yet .


You have know that we are all with you in this, and we wish you well. I don't know how far you are into this treatment, but I do know that there may be times you might feel somewhat yuk. It's OK to let us know.


----------



## mmcmdl (Dec 18, 2021)

Just an update . The last 2 dividers were left in for 22 hrs . To me , they looked worse than the first set . Black crud was starting to form . Perhaps a shorter soak period is better ? Pic in a bit .


----------



## woodchucker (Dec 21, 2021)

BTW, here are my results...


----------



## graham-xrf (Dec 22, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> BTW, here are my results...


That rust looks pretty much removed. Nice result 

The thing is, as with most rust removal by chemicals, as soon as the new clean surface is exposed, it is vulnerable. The etched micro-surface presents a huge area to air oxygen, and it starts a new, fairly aggressive, rusting. This is why highly polished surfaces resist rusting getting started. Possibly brand-name de-rusters like Evapo-rust may have an additive to passivate the surface, I don't know.

If the de-rust is precursor to a plating operation, then leave the part in the wash water, and transfer into the plating solution while still wet, and try and do it within an hour. If you want them dry, then first put into something alkaline, like hot washing soda, or seal up with way oil or something, to protect it. Every time I de-rust anything, I am always startled by how fast it starts to rust again.


----------

