# Tailstock scratching ways



## FTlatheworks (Jun 2, 2021)

My pm1236 tailstock put a deep scratch on the flat ways. There was no chip found and the bottom of the tailstock has a horrible finish with gouges up to .0020 deep. Tech at PM says it’s not big deal. I would like to hear what people here think.


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## benmychree (Jun 2, 2021)

That finish on the bottom of the tailstock shows poor quality control, all of those milling tool marks should have been scraped out, as they can hold small chips or other abrasive substances, at the very least, the scratches should be stoned out and way wipers installed to keep crud out, the best cure would be to rescrape it to remove the tool marks and then shim between the upper and lower castings (if necessary) to restore the center height to match the headstock height.  When lathes are manufactured, the tailstock height was purposely left a bit high, anticipating wear.


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## Tipton1965 (Jun 2, 2021)

I agree.....the bottom of that tailstock is pretty ugly.  It's almost like they forgot to finish the underside of the tailstock.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 2, 2021)

How much of a stink should I raise about it. I have already complained and almost sent the machine back over the quality of other things. It functions, but I wonder, how long with some of the things I’m seeing. After talking about it with them, they make me second guess like I’m being too critical. Other machinists seem to agree, but they run much more expensive machines. Hopefully others can offer what they think. Tipton what machine do you have?


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## benmychree (Jun 2, 2021)

At least in this case, I do not think you are being too critical, don't know what other issues have come before.


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## Tipton1965 (Jun 2, 2021)

FTlatheworks said:


> Tipton what machine do you have?


I have a Taiwan made 1340 on the way.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

How would you all handle it. I was told it was because a chip got under there and scratched it.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

Tipton1965 said:


> I have a Taiwan made 1340 on the way.


1340t ‘s are awesome from what I’ve seen and heard. Congrats


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## mmcmdl (Jun 3, 2021)

Nothing against PM , but that's not too pretty .   Maybe others with the same lathe could chime in as to what theirs looks like . Those swirl marks look like they hit it with a rotary disk to clean it up .


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Nothing against PM , but that's not too pretty .   Maybe others with the same lathe could chime in as to what theirs looks like . Those swirl marks look like they hit it with a rotary disk to clean it up .


It is also a couple thousandths to tall. If I put a MT in the headstock and tailstock and try the line them up with a 1/32 piece of steel like an exacto blade I can make it straight, but the tailstock is 2-3 thousandths higher than it should be. What would you ask of them for remediation?


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## RJSakowski (Jun 3, 2021)

It appears that there is a matching groove on the bottom of the tailstock, indicating that the particle causing the groove was trapped under the tailstock.  From the depth of the grooves it was probably a harder material like an abrasive or chunk of cast iron.  Did the the scratch occur after your receipt?

It also appears that there wasn't sufficient material to properly finish the bottom surface of the tailstock.  Slight imperfections in a casting are acceptable.  This appears to be significant.  It should have been caught in in-process inspection.  By the time the lathe is ready for final inspection, faults like that are seldom caught.  My Grizzly lathe was supposedly inspected by Grizzly before shipping to me but it was securely packed in its shipping crate so their inspection most likely just confirmed, "yep, its a lathe".

I have seen many instance of manufacturing defects which would be classified as hidden defects once the article was assembled.  There is a huge reliability on the production worker self inspecting.  Past that, having adequate Q.C. systems in place is also an excellent practice. Unfortunately, profitability concerns often overide the quality concerns.  It is the reason that many of our fellow machinists completely dissemble and clean a machine on receipt.


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## COMachinist (Jun 3, 2021)

I think you should see some body for that OCD first, then just clean up and debur the bottom of tha tail stock and get on with the Hobby. Remember this is lowest price equipment.
CH


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

COMachinist said:


> I think you should see some body for that OCD first, then just clean up and debur the bottom of tha tail stock and get on with the Hobby. Remember this is lowest price equipment.
> CH


Look at everyone else’s posts here, then look at yours. Are you aware of what irony is? You are talking about having OCD on a website about precision equipment. One could argue that the point of all of this is perfection. You gave me a good laugh thinking about stock being pulled out of a machine with chatter marks, a taper, and saying “this is good enough”

 I haven’t seen a budget lathe before I bought this one, but I was told by professionals to look for scratches on the ways if you buy used. That leads me to believe that it is a normal concern if the tailstock is marking it up.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

RJSakowski said:


> It appears that there is a matching groove on the bottom of the tailstock, indicating that the particle causing the groove was trapped under the tailstock.  From the depth of the grooves it was probably a harder material like an abrasive or chunk of cast iron.  Did the the scratch occur after your receipt?
> 
> It also appears that there wasn't sufficient material to properly finish the bottom surface of the tailstock.  Slight imperfections in a casting are acceptable.  This appears to be significant.  It should have been caught in in-process inspection.  By the time the lathe is ready for final inspection, faults like that are seldom caught.  My Grizzly lathe was supposedly inspected by Grizzly before shipping to me but it was securely packed in its shipping crate so their inspection most likely just confirmed, "yep, its a lathe".
> 
> I have seen many instance of manufacturing defects which would be classified as hidden defects once the article was assembled.  There is a huge reliability on the production worker self inspecting.  Past that, having adequate Q.C. systems in place is also an excellent practice. Unfortunately, profitability concerns often overide the quality concerns.  It is the reason that many of our fellow machinists completely dissemble and clean a machine on receipt.


Thanks for the objective response. One of those pictures is from the day I got the machine one if from after those marks were noticed. Those grooves in the tailstock have been there since day one. They are 10-20 thou deep so I know they were not made by a chip under the tailstock.
I should mention that I would like to refinish the machine, but I was told by PM tech that I shouldn’t do anything about it cause it doesn’t matter. I was told not to try to clean up, or alter the tailstock in any way because it’s cosmetic and oil need to get under there as well. This is why I am here


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## jbolt (Jun 3, 2021)

Is this lathe supposed to have hardened ways? 

If not they will be more susceptible to scratching and impact damage. Keeping them clean and lubricated well is a must. 

For the base of the tailstock I would use a hard stone and lightly go over the mating surface to eliminate any burrs.

The 2-3 thou height differential of the tailstock is within the manufacturing tolerance of an import machine. Remove the adjustable base from the tailstock, clean and stone, then check the height again. My PM-1440GT was 1.5 thou high as delivered. After cleaning and stoning it was 1 thou low. I used stainless steel shim material to dial it in.

The affordability of an import machine comes with some necessary tweaking by the end user.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

jbolt said:


> Is this lathe supposed to have hardened ways?
> 
> If not they will be more susceptible to scratching and impact damage. Keeping them clean and lubricated well is a must.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, but being a newbie I wasn’t aware of how much tweaking would be necessary. I waited a long time to post on here knowing it could hurt pm’s reputation.

  It functions fine, but had a lot of paint chipping, leaking oil, dials missing numbers/painted over, and the gears were almost impossible to engage different rpms. I didn’t like being told all of the issues were not a big deal.

I will say they would fix any issue that was mechanical without question. If I had said I want to send it back, Matt would have taken it back. Knowing what I know now I would buy a mill from them, but probably save for the Taiwanese model.


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## ericc (Jun 3, 2021)

I think that there is just a difference in quality due to the lower price.  I have a lot of cheap imported tools that just don't work but kind of live with it, since the price was so low.  In this case, I would just try to find the high spot and find out why it is scratching.  It may just be a hard spot in the casting, and can be gently persuaded to not be so sharp and proud.  I wouldn't return the product.  It's a really good lesson, and one that you can well afford to repeat.  Just try to make things sort of work.  I have posted a few examples, and I'll report some of them here.  I bought some Harbor Freight diamond cutoff wheels.  I discovered that they would only cut a tiny bit on their perimeter before the thin layer of diamond grit wore away.  The disks had plenty of diamonds on their faces for the customer to see, but those did no good for cutting.  They were there for cosmetic purposes only.  At least the cutters can be used to do some tool grinding, but there aren't really enough diamonds to do much good.  I thought the mandrels could be repurposed, but the cheap screw stripped out immediately.  I'll never buy these again, but I won't return them.  This will cause me to repeat unwanted behavior.  I bought a carbide tipped dead center for my lathe from Ebay.  I ended up getting sent a mild steel tipped dead center.  I know it is mild steel since I gingerly did a file test.  I complained to the seller, and they insisted that I send lots of photographic evidence including the file marks.  When I sent the photos, they asked me if I would be happy if they returned $1.  I said OK.  These lathes can do a lot of good work, but as a lot of people on the Internet say, they have shortcomings that need some refinement by the consumer.


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## jbolt (Jun 3, 2021)

I wouldnt worry about tarnishing anyones rep. Your concerns are legitimate, especially for someone with little experience. 

Mechanical issues like gear engagement should be addressed by pm but with the realization that if they provide replacement parts you will be providing the labor.

I am suprised at their attitude toward the tailstock scratching the ways. At the very least they should suggest checking for burrs or debris to eliminate the cause. Careful use of a hard stone can cure a lot of manufacturing sins.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Firstgear (Jun 3, 2021)

I liked my PM-950V that I have at our house in Ohio, I bought one just like it for our Maine house.  My wife and I set up the 2 ton gantry to get it off the trailer onto some car wheel skates I have and we pushed it into our garage.  We had to take down the gantry and move it into the garage and reassemble it where we lifted it off the pallet and the wheel skates.  We pushed the gantry with the mill hung from it into position and lowered it perfectly into place!  The 950 head is made in Taiwan while the rest of the machine is made in the mainland.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

jbolt said:


> I wouldnt worry about tarnishing anyones rep. Your concerns are legitimate, especially for someone with little experience.
> 
> Mechanical issues like gear engagement should be addressed by pm but with the realization that if they provide replacement parts you will be providing the labor.
> 
> ...


Tech said it is made to be domed (domed is my word, not theirs), so that oil can get under the tailstock.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

Firstgear said:


> I liked my PM-950V that I have at our house in Ohio, I bought one just like it for our Maine house.  My wife and I set up the 2 ton gantry to get it off the trailer onto some car wheel skates I have and we pushed it into our garage.  We had to take down the gantry and move it into the garage and reassemble it where we lifted it off the pallet and the wheel skates.  We pushed the gantry with the mill hung from it into position and lowered it perfectly into place!  The 950 head is made in Taiwan while the rest of the machine is made in the mainland.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don’t get me wrong, I love the machine. It was a lack of information on the price and how much that affects the quality. Unfortunately, companies don’t say this machines paint will come off, the threads with be crossed, and it will leak oil. I have been spoiled as well, running/maintaining $50k+ machines. I think the rush to get the machines out after the pandemic played a part in the quality too.

I will buy from them again, but as Eric ^ said, remember that’s how they are. Everything I had seen before buying my lathe was used, or Cnc. I looked at clausing lathes with the same swing and they were 14,000 for the machine only, this put it in perspective too.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

ericc said:


> I think that there is just a difference in quality due to the lower price.  I have a lot of cheap imported tools that just don't work but kind of live with it, since the price was so low.  In this case, I would just try to find the high spot and find out why it is scratching.  It may just be a hard spot in the casting, and can be gently persuaded to not be so sharp and proud.  I wouldn't return the product.  It's a really good lesson, and one that you can well afford to repeat.  Just try to make things sort of work.  I have posted a few examples, and I'll report some of them here.  I bought some Harbor Freight diamond cutoff wheels.  I discovered that they would only cut a tiny bit on their perimeter before the thin layer of diamond grit wore away.  The disks had plenty of diamonds on their faces for the customer to see, but those did no good for cutting.  They were there for cosmetic purposes only.  At least the cutters can be used to do some tool grinding, but there aren't really enough diamonds to do much good.  I thought the mandrels could be repurposed, but the cheap screw stripped out immediately.  I'll never buy these again, but I won't return them.  This will cause me to repeat unwanted behavior.  I bought a carbide tipped dead center for my lathe from Ebay.  I ended up getting sent a mild steel tipped dead center.  I know it is mild steel since I gingerly did a file test.  I complained to the seller, and they insisted that I send lots of photographic evidence including the file marks.  When I sent the photos, they asked me if I would be happy if they returned $1.  I said OK.  These lathes can do a lot of good work, but as a lot of people on the Internet say, they have shortcomings that need some refinement by the consumer.


Yes, I will begin refining soon. I will stick to asking people here instead of their tech unless something mechanical fails.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

jbolt said:


> I wouldnt worry about tarnishing anyones rep. Your concerns are legitimate, especially for someone with little experience.
> 
> Mechanical issues like gear engagement should be addressed by pm but with the realization that if they provide replacement parts you will be providing the labor.
> 
> ...


Tech mentioned to look for a chip, but this was the first thing I did. There was no chip and I said this. Tech responded saying, it’s fine to leave it, otherwise you will stop the tailstock from being able to get oil underneath.


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## RJSakowski (Jun 3, 2021)

Subsurface imperfections will not affect performance.  However, whenever a groove is created, there will be a small burr on the edges.  You will want to stone those burrs out.  It takes a serious amount of hand stoning to remove any significant amount of material so I wouldn't worry about changing the alignment or destroying the surface.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

RJSakowski said:


> Subsurface imperfections will not affect performance.  However, whenever a groove is created, there will be a small burr on the edges.  You will want to stone those burrs out.  It takes a serious amount of hand stoning to remove any significant amount of material so I wouldn't worry about changing the alignment or destroying the surface.


To be fair, I said does it need to be sent to a shop and surface ground. I said nothing about honing/deburring.


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## fursphere (Jun 3, 2021)

For comparison, here it my PM1236 tail stock.   I just got it a month or so ago, and haven't even been able to use it yet due to buying a new home and moving everything.    Soon...   

The "scratches" on the bottom of the tailstock are supposed to be very light to create surface tension so the oil will have something to grab onto, otherwise it would just ooze out under the weight of the tailstock.  I think?   Normally they look like fish scales, guess this is the cheaper version.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 3, 2021)

fursphere said:


> .





fursphere said:


> For comparison, here it my PM1236 tail stock.   I just got it a month or so ago, and haven't even been able to use it yet due to buying a new home and moving everything.    Soon...
> 
> The "scratches" on the bottom of the tailstock are supposed to be very light to create surface tension so the oil will have something to grab onto, otherwise it would just ooze out under the weight of the tailstock.  I think?   Normally they look like fish scales, guess this is the cheaper version.


Yours look acceptable to me. After looking at mine again, they are over 20 thou deep in spots. I will hone it and keep moving.


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## Janderso (Jun 3, 2021)

FTlatheworks said:


> Look at everyone else’s posts here, then look at yours. Are you aware of what irony is? You are talking about having OCD on a website about precision equipment.


A couple buddies and I were talking about this.
We buy low priced equipment and expect it to be high quality.
You can't have it both ways.
The reason Precision Mathews is so well regarded in my opinion, is the good customer service. They are selling Chinese and Taiwan made machine tools.
The quality can be achieved if the workers are properly trained and spend the time required to produce a top quality machine. That takes time =  money!
I am considering buying one of their Taiwan knee mills in a couple years.
It's too bad you are having this experience, it sucks in fact!!
Hopefully you will find resolution to your concerns.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 4, 2021)

Janderso said:


> A couple buddies and I were talking about this.
> We buy low priced equipment and expect it to be high quality.
> You can't have it both ways.
> The reason Precision Mathews is so well regarded in my opinion, is the good customer service. They are selling Chinese and Taiwan made machine tools.
> ...


It’s not a negative experience once I learned a little bit. The reason I ask tech, or the forum is because I want the machine to last. I don’t have a lot of money, so when I see any problem, I try to fix it immediately. I can’t fix worn out ways, but I can stop them from wearing out and that’s all I want to do. Buy the Taiwanese mill if you want it to look good, not just function. That’s what I have been told.


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## whitmore (Jun 4, 2021)

FTlatheworks said:


> My pm1236 tailstock put a deep scratch on the flat ways.


It's a bit of a blemish, but there's plenty of flat way surface for the carriage/tailstock to ride on, and it won't
hurt anything.   I'd run a flat item (maybe a tool blank) over it to see if there's any burr or
embedded grit.   If not ... get on to the next project.


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## mikey (Jun 4, 2021)

FTlatheworks said:


> Tech mentioned to look for a chip, but this was the first thing I did. There was no chip and I said this. Tech responded saying, it’s fine to leave it, otherwise you will stop the tailstock from being able to get oil underneath.



Wait ... what? They're saying the bottom of the tailstock is supposed to be domed so as to allow oil to get underneath? First I've heard of this technical innovation. The bottom of my Emco tailstock is ground dead flat (well, it also has a V) and it rides on a layer of way oil over hardened and ground ways, which is how things should be. Sounds to me like that PM tech is trying to defend a defect that should not be there. If someone told me that, I would call Matt and let him know that this is what his techs are telling folks.

If this was my lathe, I would have PM replace the tailstock with an inspected one that is at least properly machined. I would avoid using the tailstock until this is resolved. Yes, it is a low-level hobby machine but that doesn't excuse PM from providing an acceptable level of work.


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## Dabbler (Jun 4, 2021)

@FTlatheworks sorry for being late to the party...

The 'look' of the tailstock can be deceiving, but there is a very easy test.  I ordered a cheap  1" X 4" X.250" 4000/8000 combo stone as a tester for things like this.  It is light enough you can feel quite small burrs and even feel the surface finish.  Gently use that on your ways and your mating tailstock surfaces,  If you feel any burrs remove them.  This will help a  lot. * Valleys never hurt you on a machine tool, just the peaks.* Remember to very thoroughly clean the surfaces after using the stone.

Now about the tailstock being .002 high (or thereabouts).  I have a 40 year old LeBlond Regal Toolroom lathe - it was delivered .003 high (and it still is).  This is quite common on lathes I've measured. I've been checking stuff like this for 40 years on a _lot _of lathes.   In fact I have only seen one lathe with the tailstock dead on - a Colchester Master 2500 toolroom lathe. The average lathe I measure, is +/- .002 to .004 on vertical and worse on the horizontal.  And not one of them (except the colchester) coaxial with the spindle.  

-  I've made my LeBlond tailstock run coaxially with the headstock, but refuse to alter the height. If I need that degree of accuracy, I use a boring head with a dead center, indicated in to a half tenth. For most operations it really doesn't matter if it is a few thou high.


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## Richard King 2 (Jun 4, 2021)

I made a comment on this forum a while ago, not realizing it was a "sponsored forum".  I wish I had looked better before writing the last one criticizing the PM machines.   I will comment on the rebuilding forum if you don't mind.   Thanks for understanding.  Rich


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## Larry$ (Jun 4, 2021)

This thread got me wondering about my PM1440HD. Today I took the tailstock off, cleaned and inspected. There are no scratches in the bed. By now if there had been any burs they would have worn off, 5 years old. The bottom of the tailstock has surface grinding marks and rather crude scraping marks. Obviously the scraping wasn't done to true the surface, maybe to hold oil. The tailstock slides nicely of a film of oil. My only complaint is the bolt that retains the clamping plate keeps working loose. I just reach trough the bed holes and finger tighten it 1/2 a turn when needed. Some day I'll figure out a fix.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 5, 2021)

mikey said:


> Wait ... what? They're saying the bottom of the tailstock is supposed to be domed so as to allow oil to get underneath? First I've heard of this technical innovation. The bottom of my Emco tailstock is ground dead flat (well, it also has a V) and it rides on a layer of way oil over hardened and ground ways, which is how things should be. Sounds to me like that PM tech is trying to defend a defect that should not be there. If someone told me that, I would call Matt and let him know that this is what his techs are telling folks.
> 
> If this was my lathe, I would have PM replace the tailstock with an inspected one that is at least properly machined. I would avoid using the tailstock until this is resolved. Yes, it is a low-level hobby machine but that doesn't excuse PM from providing an acceptable level of work.


That’s how I have felt about things, but I keep being told I’m being too critical. Yes they are cheaper machines, but just because it’s cheaper doesn’t mean it should be wrong. At this point I have only flat out asked for one thing to be replaced and that was a leaking gasket. I have complained about a lot, but I realized they are minor things that all import lathes have to some degree.
Paint, gears rubbing loudly at certain rpms, and now the tailstock are all the things I have complained about. At first I was most concerned about the gears. They said you just have to find the right spot where they don’t make noise. I have worked my way around that and talked to other gear head lathe owners and found that’s just the nature of the beast. This tailstock thing i don’t know what to think. I mentioned earlier when buying a used lathe, I was told, look for damage to the way and the finish of all component attaching to the ways. When I got the lathe I figure I will use it, but it is clearly wearing on the ways, now I’m here seeking wisdom.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> I made a comment on this forum a while ago, not realizing it was a "sponsored forum".  I wish I had looked better before writing the last one criticizing the PM machines.   I will comment on the rebuilding forum if you don't mind.   Thanks for understanding.  Rich


Should I not have posted here? Honestly, I’m still figuring out this forum. I waited months before posting on forums because I know how many people can read one negative post and decide against a brand.


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## matthewsx (Jun 5, 2021)

FTlatheworks said:


> Should I not have posted here? Honestly, I’m still figuring out this forum. I waited months before posting on forums because I know how many people can read one negative post and decide against a brand.



Richard King is a very experienced and very well respected machine re-builder on this forum, he's particularly aware of sponsored forum sections since he hosts one here himself. If you want your machine to be perfect he's one of the best to to look to.

As far as your post I think it's exactly the reason Precision Matthews also hosts a forum here. There's an old saying in business "a complaint is a complement" that simply means having a customer tell you what they're not happy about is one of the best ways of getting better at what you do. If customers don't speak up, but instead just go spend their money somewhere else then you've not only lost the customer, you've lost the opportunity to improve your products and service.

I really can't say anything about your particular issue that hasn't already been said so instead I'll relate an experience from my previous business. I had a customer bring his snowblower in for a tune up and we did our standard service, including running it into a snow bank and confirming that everything worked right. 

He brought it back again and again complaining that it didn't run smoothly enough and I tried my best to get it to where he wanted it including modifying his carburetor (I was a racing go kart engine builder so I knew a little about small engines). He kept bringing it back and I came to understand that he was a retired automotive engineer and that gave him a unique perspective on all things mechanical. 

Now this particular engine was a Tecumseh L-head design from the early part of the 20th century, it did it's job well but was never designed to run smoothly. I was also a Honda snowblower dealer so I had the ability to sell him one that would definitely run smoother but that's not what he wanted.

Eventually when he brought it in again I started it up and ran it into a big bank of snow and demonstrated how good it was running by throwing snow a good 40ft. I explained that his machine was designed to move snow and since it was doing that well I had in fact done everything that was needed and if he wanted something else I would be glad to sell him a new Honda so he could have a smooth idling engine.

My previous business building race engines I bought from a legendary kart engine builder who occasionally had customers complain that their engines didn't idle well. What Mike said was "it ain't an idling contest" Any mechanical device is designed to do a particular job at a particular level of accuracy and a particular price point.

So, I'd posit that if your lathe cuts stainless steel and can make parts as accurate as you are able to, then it's performing as designed. It sounds like the scratch came some time after first setting it up but it's well documented here and elsewhere that Chinese built tools should be considered "kits" where you get to set-up and improve to your requirements. Others have given plenty of suggestions for how to do just that and it sounds like Precision Matthews is willing to do whatever it takes to keep you coming back.

Your thread will serve to help others decide what level $$$ of machine they desire so it's probably a win for all involved.

Cheers,

John


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 5, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> Richard King is a very experienced and very well respected machine re-builder on this forum, he's particularly aware of sponsored forum sections since he hosts one here himself. If you want your machine to be perfect he's one of the best to to look to.
> 
> As far as your post I think it's exactly the reason Precision Matthews also hosts a forum here. There's an old saying in business "a complaint is a complement" that simply means having a customer tell you what they're not happy about is one of the best ways of getting better at what you do. If customers don't speak up, but instead just go spend their money somewhere else then you've not only lost the customer, you've lost the opportunity to improve your products and service.
> 
> ...



That’s a good analogy. Thank you for taking the time to post this.
Well, your only problem was that it was a tecumseh... lol.

I’m just enjoying the discussion at this point. I enjoy the conversation, as much as completing the objective. It helps me hearing from everyone else, no matter how redundant.

On a side note, would you be interested in giving me some small engine advice? Send me a message if you have the time, or interest for that matter. I have a particularly interesting project I’m building, similar to a racing go-kart.


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## Dabbler (Jun 6, 2021)

@FTlatheworks Did you take a stone to the surfaces to see if there were any burrs? Are you comfortable with the description or would you like more information?

-- it is entirely correct to discuss your troubles and how to resolve them here.  PM is a sponsor here, but that does not make them immune to polite criticism.  My feeling is that they seem to sell machines whose quality is as or better than expected for the price, and they try to support their customers well within reason - even going to heroic measures at times.

That being said, even a top of the line producer (car, lathe, or what have you) can produce a product with defects.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 6, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @FTlatheworks Did you take a stone to the surfaces to see if there were any burrs? Are you comfortable with the description or would you like more information?
> 
> -- it is entirely correct to discuss your troubles and how to resolve them here.  PM is a sponsor here, but that does not make them immune to polite criticism.  My feeling is that they seem to sell machines whose quality is as or better than expected for the price, and they try to support their customers well within reason - even going to heroic measures at times.
> 
> That being said, even a top of the line producer (car, lathe, or what have you) can produce a product with defects.


No I have not. I have been avoiding moving it in a way that will apply a lot of pressure to the ways. I need to find the proper size and quality hone. Any suggestions?


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## Dabbler (Jun 6, 2021)

I found an inexpensive stone in 4000/10,000. 1" X 4" - I think I paid 12$.

Now an old school tool and die maker will say that there is no need for a 10,000 stone, but the point is that there won't be any large grit making the surface uneven. You can buy Precision stones in a pair for a couple hundred, but the little stone seems to work better than my precision stones for finding burrs.


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## matthewsx (Jun 6, 2021)

FTlatheworks said:


> That’s a good analogy. Thank you for taking the time to post this.
> Well, your only problem was that it was a tecumseh... lol.
> 
> I’m just enjoying the discussion at this point. I enjoy the conversation, as much as completing the objective. It helps me hearing from everyone else, no matter how redundant.
> ...


If the project isn’t secret just post it up on here, we have a whole section dedicated to things that move on their own.









						THINGS THAT MOVE ON THEIR OWN
					






					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




John


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## Hellkell (Jun 6, 2021)

I try my best not to buy Chinese. I check most things I buy. I’m sure most people do the same here. We are sealing our own demise. 
Taiwan is a different story but unfortunately probably next on the chopping block. It’s probably worth it for many reasons to spend the extra money and buy their products.


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## Richard King 2 (Jun 6, 2021)

Now that Dabbler said it is OK to discuss things.  I have a question.  Was the scratch on the bed when you cleaned off the Cosmoline?  Did you use the machine and then saw the scratch?  I see PM has a 3 year warranty, does it cover this?


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 6, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> Now that Dabbler said it is OK to discuss things.  I have a question.  Was the scratch on the bed when you cleaned off the Cosmoline?  Did you use the machine and then saw the scratch?  I see PM has a 3 year warranty, does it cover this?


No, I have been watching these scratches appear sliding the tailstock carefully. I noticed light scratching and thought it was chips, so I ignored it. I noticed new one here and there. I cleaned the ways and called it good. I went to do some drilling in a square piece of plastic after the cleaning and slid the tailstock back faster than usual, but being sure to push from the base. This was when this long scratch appeared. I immediately took it off and checked for chips, there were none. This is when I looked at the day one pic of the tailstock, and took a new pic to compare. I noticed no differences, just a poor finish which I was aware of.


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## Dabbler (Jun 6, 2021)

@FTlatheworks I'm sure that there are two factors causing your problem, but I'd love to be near to test them out.  I really like to measure these things for myself, not because I don't trust anybody, but as I measure in person I might notice things sometimes missed by other guys.

One factor is that the tailstock isn't perfectly flat, as you alluded to above (this is easier to fix than you might imagine).  The second is that there are inclusions in the casting that contain carbides - all grey iron contains carbides, but there is a tendency for carbide clusters to be created near inclusions that contain excess carbon.

By taking a flat stone and lightly stoning the tailstock surfaces, you might very well discover one or more of these areas.  This thing isn't directly Matt's problem at PM or at the factory.  When I refurbish 80 year old 'best of breed' machines I have to be careful of this as I rebuild them.  If you find one, take a diamond hone and relieve it.  even if you go a little too far, it won't hurt your tailstock, and will eventually result in wider contact area. Even if it doesn't, you should still be okay.

Note that a few scratches isn't harmful to you lathe bed. They will even hold a little oil which can be beneficial - they just look bad.

WRT to the shape, each shape, (convex, concave or random) has a different strategy that I'm sure @Richard King 2  can give you some pointers about, but that is a very long post indeed.  It isn't rocket science, but the strategy has to be appropriate to the situation.

P.S. Taking a stone to the tailstock finish will help take out any sharp peaks, will make the movement feel smoother anyway.


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## Richard King 2 (Jun 6, 2021)

What does PM say?  Can you return it and get a new one?  If I were you I would do that.  It doesn't say on their web-site what the 3 year warranty covers.   Ita new and it should not have scratches.  I was also thinking what sort of lubrication does it have?   Did they send a container of oil with it?  Did they tell you what oil spec to use?  Did you use the oil? If you decide  to keep it I have a few idea's for you.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 6, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> What does PM say?  Can you return it and get a new one?  If I were you I would do that.  It doesn't say on their web-site what the 3 year warranty covers.   Ita new and it should not have scratches.  I was also thinking what sort of lubrication does it have?   Did they send a container of oil with it?  Did they tell you what oil spec to use?  Did you use the oil? If you decide  to keep it I have a few idea's for you.


I haven’t asked for another. I mentioned the situation to them in an email and tech said it’s harmless. I have never told them I need them to replace anything, but I have brought up issues to see what they would do.

   Maybe, I’m being sensitive, but I get the feeling that they are tired of hearing from me.
I haven’t asked for new anything. I’m not an expert when it comes to lathes. I can rebuild Diesel engines, auto transmissions, and paper presses that are much more intricate, so I went with my experience from that. This helped in deciding what to bring up with them. I got responses that indicated to me, “we deal with this all the time and we aren’t going to replace anything unless it is absolutely necessary”.  I was hoping they would say “ya that’s not right we will send you a replacement and salvage that one, you can send the replacement back”, or something along those lines. I don’t want to be that guy that complains over and over again and strains a relationship I would like to keep happy, so I can continue building my list of machines with them.
Even on this forum, half the people are saying just hone it, the other half are saying they should send another. I was in constant contact with Matt and PM until I bought , then Matt was on vacation for a week, then two weeks. I gave up on calling after this became a pattern. I know I could probably make demands that would be met, but I make sure I’m informed before I make that choice.

I use vactra for ways, I use universal hydraulic/tractor oil for the gearboxes. I oil every time I use the machine. Probably wasteful, but we have high humidity lately and our other machine have had rusting issues. I keep it coated at all times to avoid this on my lathe. 

you may notice in a pic the wrong looking oil on the top slide oiling sites, but this was one time I mixed up my oiling cans.


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## benmychree (Jun 6, 2021)

ericc said:


> I think that there is just a difference in quality due to the lower price.  I have a lot of cheap imported tools that just don't work but kind of live with it, since the price was so low.  In this case, I would just try to find the high spot and find out why it is scratching.  It may just be a hard spot in the casting, and can be gently persuaded to not be so sharp and proud.  I wouldn't return the product.  It's a really good lesson, and one that you can well afford to repeat.  Just try to make things sort of work.  I have posted a few examples, and I'll report some of them here.  I bought some Harbor Freight diamond cutoff wheels.  I discovered that they would only cut a tiny bit on their perimeter before the thin layer of diamond grit wore away.  The disks had plenty of diamonds on their faces for the customer to see, but those did no good for cutting.  They were there for cosmetic purposes only.  At least the cutters can be used to do some tool grinding, but there aren't really enough diamonds to do much good.  I thought the mandrels could be repurposed, but the cheap screw stripped out immediately.  I'll never buy these again, but I won't return them.  This will cause me to repeat unwanted behavior.  I bought a carbide tipped dead center for my lathe from Ebay.  I ended up getting sent a mild steel tipped dead center.  I know it is mild steel since I gingerly did a file test.  I complained to the seller, and they insisted that I send lots of photographic evidence including the file marks.  When I sent the photos, they asked me if I would be happy if they returned $1.  I said OK.  These lathes can do a lot of good work, but as a lot of people on the Internet say, they have shortcomings that need some refinement by the consumer.


Soft dead centers are made to be used in the headstock of a lathe so that they can be trued up with a cutting tool when necessary; often they are marked with a V groove on the big end near the 60 deg. taper


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## Richard King 2 (Jun 6, 2021)

How old is the machine?   Is it still under the 3 year warranty?    You don't have to be a Machine Rebuilder to see and know those scratches are not normal.  If you just bought a new Diesel engine and it came with a big scratch in the wall of a piston  What would you do?   I would think Matt would do anything not to see this inside his sponsored forum.  I have also never heard a person call leaving the tailstock domed>  Can you slide in a .0015 feeler gage under it?   I see your south of KC.   I might be driving to Tulsa later this summer.  I could stop by and look at it.  I would also ask Matt did they forget to install way wipers on the tail stock?


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 6, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> How old is the machine?   Is it still under the 3 year warranty?    You don't have to be a Machine Rebuilder to see and know those scratches are not normal.  If you just bought a new Diesel engine and it came with a big scratch in the wall of a piston  What would you do?   I would think Matt would do anything not to see this inside his sponsored forum.  I have also never heard a person call leaving the tailstock domed>  Can you slide in a .0015 feeler gage under it?   I see your south of KC.   I might be driving to Tulsa later this summer.  I could stop by and look at it.  I would also ask Matt did they forget to install way wipers on the tail stock?


I’m glad you agree with me. I understand that Im guilty of confirmation bias here, but I’m not asking for them to take a huge loss. I would be fine with it being fixed if they have the capabilities. I’m not overly excited to hone it. I can’t remove .0020 and one of those lines goes all the way to perimeter, which in my mind acts as a guide for material to glide right into. I know I said that is not what cause the scratches, but I just thought about that far side gouge in the tailstock allowing material to flow right into it. This isn’t the imperfection in the tailstock surface that coincides with the scratch in the ways, so that indicated to me it wasn’t guaranteed that a chip caused this.

For what it’s worth, I did not intentionally try to put this in the sponsored forum. It’s probably where it technically goes, but I would be happier with it being in the beginners forum, if a mod can move it. I did not go to the precision Matthews board to post this. I was browsing for precision Matthews tailstock threads, then hit post new topic. I will be sure to pay attention to that next time.

By the way I don’t see wipers. The carriage does, but the tailstock does not.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 6, 2021)

That would be quite a way out of your way. I have only had the lathe 2-3 months.


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## fursphere (Jun 7, 2021)

FTlatheworks said:


> By the way I don’t see wipers. The carriage does, but the tailstock does not.


 I noticed that on mine too.  No wipers on the tail stock.  

Not sure if there is a company that makes, or maybe I need to design the parts and 3D print some out of plastic.  Have to be careful its works as a chip wiper and not a chip collector though.


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 7, 2021)

fursphere said:


> I noticed that on mine too.  No wipers on the tail stock.
> 
> Not sure if there is a company that makes, or maybe I need to design the parts and 3D print some out of plastic.  Have to be careful its works as a chip wiper and not a chip collector though.


Ya, that’s a good idea. Let me know how it works.


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## Ken226 (Jun 7, 2021)

fursphere said:


> I noticed that on mine too.  No wipers on the tail stock.
> 
> Not sure if there is a company that makes, or maybe I need to design the parts and 3D print some out of plastic.  Have to be careful its works as a chip wiper and not a chip collector though.



That's what I did.

I printed them as replacements for my carriage wipes.  Then got the idea to drill/tap the tailstock to take the same wipes.

The silver is PLA. The black is soft TPU.  Printed separately then epoxied together.


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## ShawnR (Jun 9, 2021)

@FTlatheworks I just read through this whole thread. I received my PM1236 lathe about 6 weeks ago. I had a couple of issues so far and the resolves by PM were ok and very good. The first was very noisy gears when engaging the gear box (for carriage feed) in forward (left to right), like, really noisy! The tech told me this was normal, he had the same lathe. I did not feel good about the answer so posted on another forum and got some input. Turns out, the problem was two fold. I (I hate it when I am the problem! ) was missing my indent position and pushing the engage lever too far (the side of the gear box stopped it in the other direction so this was not an issue). But, also, my indents were set to very low pressure. I turned them up, but even so, I know that I need to find that sweet spot. I had to look inside the headbox and operate the lever to see what was going on before it made sense. Pretty simple once I looked at it, but it made it obvious what was going on. I was a little disappointed that the tech was not able to point me in that direction and he had been living with the same issue himself instead of asking what is going on.... but with help on the other forum, we figured it out. QMT is very good at getting back to emails and in today's world, that in itself, is satisfying, to a point.

The second issue showed up a couple weeks later. The spindle would not start in higher gears, similar to a start capacitor issue, but the lathe is new! I emailed tech support again and then I got busy for a few hours. By the time I checked email again, they had already shipped me a new start capacitor and had shipping info for me. I asked if they had had troubles and they said no but it happens. I received and installed it today and the spindle start is like night and day from before, on all speeds! Does not matter what speed I am set to. The cap I put in was slightly larger in value. Either the old one was, indeed, pooched or the motor needs a larger one.

My new lathe options in Canada are limited but I don't think any company in Canada, that deals in these China built machines, would be able to support a customer like that. I just don't think they are set up to stock parts and jump so quickly.

So the reason I post my story is that I think they  (QMT) have good service and support but if you are truly unhappy with your concern, then I think Matt will do something to make it right for you. Even with closed borders due to COVID and the logistics of international delivery and after purchase support, I am really happy with the machine and the company, so far. But I am going out to look closely at my ways tomorrow!  I suspect I will be honing as @Dabbler suggests. I have not really looked at the sort of stuff that closely. Now that that new girlfriend feeling is relenting, time to get to know her....

Good Luck!


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## FTlatheworks (Jun 26, 2021)

ShawnR said:


> @FTlatheworks I just read through this whole thread. I received my PM1236 lathe about 6 weeks ago. I had a couple of issues so far and the resolves by PM were ok and very good. The first was very noisy gears when engaging the gear box (for carriage feed) in forward (left to right), like, really noisy! The tech told me this was normal, he had the same lathe. I did not feel good about the answer so posted on another forum and got some input. Turns out, the problem was two fold. I (I hate it when I am the problem! ) was missing my indent position and pushing the engage lever too far (the side of the gear box stopped it in the other direction so this was not an issue). But, also, my indents were set to very low pressure. I turned them up, but even so, I know that I need to find that sweet spot. I had to look inside the headbox and operate the lever to see what was going on before it made sense. Pretty simple once I looked at it, but it made it obvious what was going on. I was a little disappointed that the tech was not able to point me in that direction and he had been living with the same issue himself instead of asking what is going on.... but with help on the other forum, we figured it out. QMT is very good at getting back to emails and in today's world, that in itself, is satisfying, to a point.
> 
> The second issue showed up a couple weeks later. The spindle would not start in higher gears, similar to a start capacitor issue, but the lathe is new! I emailed tech support again and then I got busy for a few hours. By the time I checked email again, they had already shipped me a new start capacitor and had shipping info for me. I asked if they had had troubles and they said no but it happens. I received and installed it today and the spindle start is like night and day from before, on all speeds! Does not matter what speed I am set to. The cap I put in was slightly larger in value. Either the old one was, indeed, pooched or the motor needs a larger one.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input, I haven’t asked them for  anything and don’t think I’m going to. I haven’t had time to work on it much lately, but I think I’m gonna hone it and see. New scratches and pitting are appearing on the ways every day and I may ask about that because I couldn’t keep this thing oiled and cleaned anymore than I am. I’m getting worried that I got a machine with inadequate metal used for the ways. Idk how they make ways, but it looks like there are a lot of bubble inside cause these pits show up on the tailstock ways, which is the least used surface.


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