# New PM-1236T Lathe has arrived



## riveter (Aug 9, 2022)

After a six month wait the PM-1236T Lathe arrived. Other than a couple of paint scrapes and gouges it looks pretty good. I spent a couple of hours uncrating and cleaning it. It is still pretty hot in the garage, but the humidity is getting more tolerable.


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## riveter (Aug 9, 2022)

I'm not clear on the gearbox oiling. The manual tells me to inject oil into the gallery. I am not familiar with this arrangement. Are there holes for the oil to drip onto gears?


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## wachuko (Aug 9, 2022)

Comment removed…

Owners of the same lathe will chime in


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## NCjeeper (Aug 9, 2022)

You have an open gear box. It is a total loss system. Every time you go to use the lathe squirt some oil in there. It will drip down on the change gears and out the bottom onto your pan. I have a little tray under mine to help catch the oil.


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## maspann (Aug 9, 2022)

Yep, what NCjeeper said. I took the cover off of mine to be sure. Just inside the oil port there is a tray with holes in it allowing the oil to drip down in the gears. There is a piece of some kind of mesh laying in the tray to moderate the rate of drip, but it doesn't do much.


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## riveter (Aug 9, 2022)

maspann said:


> Yep, what NCjeeper said. I took the cover off of mine to be sure. Just inside the oil port there is a tray with holes in it allowing the oil to drip down in the gears. There is a piece of some kind of mesh laying in the tray to moderate the rate of drip, but it doesn't do much.


I will take the cover off tomorrow to see it and to see if I can oil it with my regular oil squirt cans.


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## Just for fun (Aug 9, 2022)

I use a regular squirt can, three pumps.  I also have a drip pan that I made to catch the oil.


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## davidpbest (Aug 9, 2022)

riveter said:


> I will take the cover off tomorrow to see it and to see if I can oil it with my regular oil squirt cans.


 This might provide more clarity on what’s under the hood and alternative solutions to improve the Norton gearbox oiling. 









						PM-1236T review
					

One thing worth experimenting with on your 3 jaw (any chuck other than 4 jaw) is try it in all the D1-4 positions.  Test runout and then rotate 120 degrees to next position on pins and test again.  Every chuck I've tried, there is 1 sweet spot.  My 3 jaw that came with PM-1340GT is right at...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 9, 2022)

Congrats!  You’re going to love it!


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## riveter (Aug 10, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> This might provide more clarity on what’s under the hood and alternative solutions to improve the Norton gearbox oiling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great info. Thanks David!


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## riveter (Aug 10, 2022)

Today I continued cleaning and inspecting the new lathe. I also got the stand partially erected. It looks like it may be tall enough for me without having to make a base for it.






It looks like I will have to cut away the pallet to get the crane up to it.


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## riveter (Aug 10, 2022)

I measured the spindle taper runout to be about 0.0001". Axial runout is about the same. That's one tenth of a thou.

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And one more spindle runout test after mounting lathe on the stand. About 0.0001". I also checked the axial runout. None measurable.

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		https://flic.kr/p/2nF7sU3

I also measured the 3 jaw chuck with a 1/2" drill blank inserted. This is an economy chuck, so I was not expecting much of it. It is nearly 0.004". I know now this test means little or nothing.

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		https://flic.kr/p/2nDyYT5

So I will be shopping for a good Asian made replacement. Shars has some options.


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## davidpbest (Aug 10, 2022)

BISON 7-803-0634 6
					

Bison D1-series Direct-mounting Standard 3-jaw Chucks. Bison direct-mounting chucks have a universal semi-steel body, i.e., they are made of high-class cast-iron. These Camlock spindle D1-series chucks can be mounted directly and do not require adapter plates. The chucks' jaw teeth, pinions, and...




					www.travers.com


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## riveter (Aug 10, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> BISON 7-803-0634 6
> 
> 
> Bison D1-series Direct-mounting Standard 3-jaw Chucks. Bison direct-mounting chucks have a universal semi-steel body, i.e., they are made of high-class cast-iron. These Camlock spindle D1-series chucks can be mounted directly and do not require adapter plates. The chucks' jaw teeth, pinions, and...
> ...


Have you seen any positive comments on this one? Apparently it can be dialed in to run true.
6″ Adjustable Ultra Precision 3 Jaw Chuck, D1-4 Mount


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## DavidR8 (Aug 10, 2022)

riveter said:


> Today I continued cleaning and inspecting the new lathe. I also got the stand partially erected. It looks like it may be tall enough for me without having to make a base for it.
> View attachment 416810
> 
> 
> ...


In the past when faced with wide pallet/narrow hoist legs situation I've managed to lever the pallet up and onto the legs of the hoist. From there I've hoisted off the pallet and carried on.
I've also taken the outriggers off and moved them outboard using some appropriate sized stock as long pins sleeved with black iron pipe in the space where the outrigger normally goes.
(I hope that makes sense...)


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## davidpbest (Aug 10, 2022)

riveter said:


> Have you seen any positive comments on this one? Apparently it can be dialed in to run true.
> 6″ Adjustable Ultra Precision 3 Jaw Chuck, D1-4 Mount


I'd post a new topic specifically asking about that chuck.  That will get more responses that you'll get in this thread.  What I can say is that I would avoid a chuck made on mainland China, and focus exclusively on one from Taiwan, or from Europe (Bison, TMX, PBA) if you can afford them.  Make sure you get one with 2-piece jaws.  Having Set-tru (Adjust-true) facility is a real plus.

When I bought my PM1340GT in 2015, Matt (at PM) was able to supply a 6", 3-jaw, 2-piece, Set-Tru type chuck made in Taiwan by Chandox for me.  It's a terrific chuck and I love it.  Here's a photo of the chucks PM supplied - the 4J is nothing special, but does the job (I wish it had 2-piece jaws).






This is the Chandox ((after adding shop-made* adjustable chuck-stops*):






Compared to my Bison 6" (on the rotary table), the Chandox is every bit as good in accuracy and build quality.  Two years later, I tried to buy a second one from Matt and he said he could no longer source from Chandox.  You might ask Matt how his current 3-jaw adjust-true from Taiwan compares to the Chandox.  Don't expect a 3-jaw scroll chuck to give you repeatability tolerances better than 0.003" TIR - for that you need and Adjust-Tru type.

At some point, you are likely to want a collet chuck (either 5C or ER40) for your lathe.  Read the attached before deciding.


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## mikey (Aug 11, 2022)

riveter said:


> I also measured the 3 jaw chuck with a 1/2" drill blank inserted. This is an economy chuck, so I was not expecting much of it. It is nearly 0.004".... So I will be shopping for a good Asian made replacement. Shars has some options.


You cannot assess the accuracy of a 3 jaw chuck by measuring runout on a pin held in the jaws. This is not how a 3 jaw works. A 3 jaw is intended for first operations work so you need to chuck something in the chuck and turn it, then measure the runout of that turned piece without removing it from the chuck. It will be zero or should be unless something is seriously wrong with the chuck. 

You also do not need a set-tru or adjust-tru chuck unless you are doing multiples of a given diameter in a second operation.


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## davidpbest (Aug 11, 2022)

mikey said:


> You cannot assess the accuracy of a 3 jaw chuck by measuring runout on a pin held in the jaws. This is not how a 3 jaw works. A 3 jaw is intended for first operations work so you need to chuck something in the chuck and turn it, then measure the runout of that turned piece without removing it from the chuck. It will be zero or should be unless something is seriously wrong with the chuck.
> 
> You also do not need a set-tru or adjust-tru chuck unless you are doing multiples of a given diameter in a second operation.


Mikey speaks the truth here.  A 3-jaw is unlikely to provide repeatability to under 0.003” TIR remounting the same material.  For tighter TIR you will need a Set-Tru and be willing to dial it in, or use a 5C or ER collet chuck.


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## riveter (Aug 11, 2022)

mikey said:


> You cannot assess the accuracy of a 3 jaw chuck by measuring runout on a pin held in the jaws. This is not how a 3 jaw works. A 3 jaw is intended for first operations work so you need to chuck something in the chuck and turn it, then measure the runout of that turned piece without removing it from the chuck. It will be zero or should be unless something is seriously wrong with the chuck.
> 
> You also do not need a set-tru or adjust-tru chuck unless you are doing multiples of a given diameter in a second operation.


I understand. I would lose concentricity only when I take the turned part out of the chuck. I have occasionally marked the part and one jaw so I could get it close when returning the part to the 3 jaw chuck. It has been a while since I had a lathe, so I will have to do some reeducation. Thanks for that.


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## riveter (Aug 11, 2022)

I do have the P.M. 5C collet chuck. I installed it and indicated it in to about 0.0005". I think I can get it closer when the time comes to use it. I also checked spindle play by pulling up and down on the chuck with my hand. I am getting about 0.0005" of play as I deflect it with hand force. What should I expect for spindle play in the PM1236T lathe?

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		https://flic.kr/p/2nDMJPi


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## mksj (Aug 11, 2022)

It is hard to get better than 0.0005" on a set-true 5C because the collet specs. usually have a TIR range greater than that. But good enough, and in general it should repeat with 4-5 ten thousandths. Deflection of 0.0005" is about what one would expect, I had a 1340GT and that was about the same. It is all relative, as there are many factors that effect the TIR.


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## riveter (Aug 11, 2022)

mksj said:


> It is hard to get better than 0.0005" on a set-true 5C because the collet specs. usually have a TIR range greater than that. But good enough, and in general it should repeat with 4-5 ten thousandths. Deflection of 0.0005" is about what one would expect, I had a 1340GT and that was about the same. It is all relative, as there are many factors that effect the TIR.


Once I get it on the stand and start making chips I can quit obsessing over inspecting. I'm slowly getting there. Thanks for your comments.


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## riveter (Aug 13, 2022)

I fitted the BXA QCTP and a 5/8" tool. I set the cutter height to a dead center in the tailstock. The tool holder is stroked out. Notice the lock nut is fully at the top of the stud.





This is a 1/2" tool. I think I prefer this. I know there is no functional difference; its just a personal preference not to have the lock nut stroked out.


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## riveter (Aug 13, 2022)

I built two wooden structures (8.5" high) to elevate the pallet above the crane legs. I have leveling feet and 4 ft. lifting straps on order. I am doing this installation alone, so it will be a slow process. I installed my PM-935 mill alone, so I think I can get it done. I think the biggest problem will be aligning the drip pan to the stand so it stays put while I lower the lathe. I talked to Charlie at P.M. and he said some people have used dowels with pointed ends. And the manual does mention dowels. They would stick up from beneath, keep the drip pan in place, and guide the lathe down.


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## skcncx (Aug 13, 2022)

riveter said:


> I fitted the BXA QCTP and a 5/8" tool. I set the cutter height to a dead center in the tailstock. The tool holder is stroked out. Notice the lock nut is fully at the top of the stud.
> 
> This is a 1/2" tool. I think I prefer this. I know there is no functional difference; its just a personal preference not to have the lock nut stroked out.



Would an AXA be a better fit?  Not sure if you would get it any lower though.  

I ordered same lathe and toolpost from PM (waiting on it)... they say the BXA is the right fit, but seems like you should have more margin above and below.  I was considering their BXA master turning/boring tool set, but it's all 5/8"  tooling except a 1/2" and 3/4" boring bar.


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## mksj (Aug 13, 2022)

I would stick with BXA, some of the holders will vary as to the thickness of the bottom and top of the holder. There is more options with 5/8" tool holders if using inserts.

Lifting the lathe, I recommend going through the ways with a strap, or consider a D-ring lift point. I notched the D-Ring mounting plates so they lock into the ways and then padded them with sheet neoprene rubber.  The through bolt/nut was high tensile. Add some jacking straps to level the lathe along the Z axis. Make sure to add sealant around all the bolt holes, use either automotive sealants or a butyl based type, standard silicone breaks down with oil over time.

Be very careful of the tonage setting on the engine hoist, in the first picture I used the 1/2 ton to lift it and then the 1/4T only to position it to the holes. I only had a 1T hoist, on the second lift I had a 2T and more reach, this was also on the longer 1340GT.  With a D-RIng I was able to get closer to the headstock end. Make sure you lock the tailstock so it cannot move.


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## davidpbest (Aug 13, 2022)

riveter said:


> I fitted the BXA QCTP and a 5/8" tool. I set the cutter height to a dead center in the tailstock. The tool holder is stroked out. Notice the lock nut is fully at the top of the stud.
> View attachment 417129
> 
> This is a 1/2" tool. I think I prefer this. I know there is no functional difference; its just a personal preference not to have the lock nut stroked out.
> View attachment 417130


The XL version of that BXA tool holder lowers the bottom ledge the tool rests on by 0.125”.  The part number will be 250-201XL.  It’s sized specifically to accept 3/4” shanked tools by simply lowering the bottom ledge.  PM sells them as do several others. 









						Colton Industrial Tools 97202 | BXA #1 XL Extra Capacity (3/4") Turning & Facing Quick Change Tool Holder 250-201XL With Upgraded ZiN Coated Hardware
					

We distribute top-quality industrial tools and machine shop supplies at the best prices. View our collection of CNC machinist supplies and tooling packages.




					allindustrial.com


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 13, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Would an AXA be a better fit?  Not sure if you would get it any lower though.
> 
> I ordered same lathe and toolpost from PM (waiting on it)... they say the BXA is the right fit, but seems like you should have more margin above and below.  I was considering their BXA master turning/boring tool set, but it's all 5/8"  tooling except a 1/2" and 3/4" boring bar.


I use an AXA size tool post on my 1236T because I already had it, it seems like the right size for the lathe and works well, but if buying new I would probably go with BXA.  The BXA will have more choices for toolholders without modifying them, and the parting tool selection is larger and more rigid.  With a BXA, you could probably turn a toolholder upside down to turn away from a shoulder or for threading easier than with an AXA size tool post.


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Would an AXA be a better fit?  Not sure if you would get it any lower though.
> 
> I ordered same lathe and toolpost from PM (waiting on it)... they say the BXA is the right fit, but seems like you should have more margin above and below.  I was considering their BXA master turning/boring tool set, but it's all 5/8"  tooling except a 1/2" and 3/4" boring bar.


I wondered about the AXA but I think the BXA with 1/2" tooling will be OK.


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

mksj said:


> I would stick with BXA, some of the holders will vary as to the thickness of the bottom and top of the holder. There is more options with 5/8" tool holders if using inserts.
> 
> Lifting the lathe, I recommend going through the ways with a strap, or consider a D-ring lift point. I notched the D-Ring mounting plates so they lock into the ways and then padded them with sheet neoprene rubber.  The through bolt/nut was high tensile. Add some jacking straps to level the lathe along the Z axis. Make sure to add sealant around all the bolt holes, use either automotive sealants or a butyl based type, standard silicone breaks down with oil over time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the lifting and installation tips and pics.


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> The XL version of that BXA tool holder lowers the bottom ledge the tool rests on by 0.125”.  The part number will be 250-201XL.  It’s sized specifically to accept 3/4” shanked tools by simply lowering the bottom ledge.  PM sells them as do several others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like the bottom shelf is 1/2" thick, same as the standard 250-201. So a 5/8" tool would be at the same height, right?


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

Well this is disappointing. I bought the MagXact Magnetic MX-200L 2 Axis Lathe LCD DRO for my lathe. I was watching an installation video (see DRO Pros on YouTube for installation videos) and I realized my cross slide has a locking screw and sure enough the X Axis DRO scale covers it. I don't want to give up the locking feature. That screw pushes on the gib to lock the slide. I can't figure out a way to have both the locking feature and the DRO. I would rather give up the DRO and keep the cross slide locking feature if I can't have both. I thought about notching the scale extrusion (crazy I know), but there is still not enough space above the hole. I bought this lathe (PM-1236T 12″x36″ Ultra Precision Lathe) to make model engines, so I want accuracy. And locking the carriage and cross slide are important for doing accurate work.


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## akjeff (Aug 14, 2022)

Mount the scale on the chuck side of the cross slide? It'll give a more accurate reading directly under your cutting tool as well. I guess it depends on the work you do, but personally, my spinning chuck never gets even close to hitting the cross slide, so I don't know why people freak out about mounting a DRO scale there. That's where I'd have mounted mine, if it wouldn't have blocked the follow rest mounting points on my Summit.


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

akjeff said:


> Mount the scale on the chuck side of the cross slide? It'll give a more accurate reading directly under your cutting tool as well. I guess it depends on the work you do, but personally, my spinning chuck never gets even close to hitting the cross slide, so I don't know why people freak out about mounting a DRO scale there. That's where I'd have mounted mine, if it wouldn't have blocked the follow rest mounting points on my Summit.


The steady rest mounting holes are on the chuck side.


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## john.oliver35 (Aug 14, 2022)

Clough42 just did a video on one approach:


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

I did find this solution by rafprecision:
X Axis DRO Scale mounting


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## mksj (Aug 14, 2022)

This has been addressed in the past, there are several options, one is to stand the scale off with spacers and make a shallow hex nut for a wrench, mount the scale horizontal, or just make a lock that mounts to a follow rest which is what I use. It is simple and easy to make. QED.








						ERL-1340 Cross Slide Lock for DRO Equipped Lathes
					

Often when doing tight tolerance work one needs to lock the cross slide to get consistent diameters along the length of the cut. My ERL-1340 was fairly tight when new, but over time I did noticed slight shifts in the cross slide position from my original setting.  I am using glass scales, and I...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				











						1440GT Cross Slide locking screw? Blocked by DRO
					

The DRO install on my 1440GT blocks access to the slide lock... and I'd really like to use the slide lock! - Has anyone come up with any clever workarounds here?




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

mksj said:


> This has been addressed in the past, there are several options, one is to stand the scale off with spacers and make a shallow hex nut for a wrench, mount the scale horizontal, or just make a lock that mounts to a follow rest which is what I use. It is simple and easy to make. QED.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does that just push against the dovetail ways?


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## mksj (Aug 14, 2022)

It is friction against the outer wall of the cross slide, which also locks it against the dovetail. Pretty much the same as the Gibb lock pushes against the dovetail on the tailstock side. Since I use bronze for the lock it wears vs. the cast iron face. Did this on my 1340GT for many years and the locking position stayed the same, so no wear. If you are shooting for accurate diameter turning, you need a cross slide lock to prevent any movement when turning down a part.


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

mksj said:


> This has been addressed in the past, there are several options, one is to stand the scale off with spacers and make a shallow hex nut for a wrench, mount the scale horizontal, or just make a lock that mounts to a follow rest which is what I use. It is simple and easy to make. QED.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's two good options for me to choose. Thank you.


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## davidpbest (Aug 14, 2022)

riveter said:


> That's two good options for me to choose. Thank you.


Here’s another solution.  I’ve been extremely happy with this arrangement.  









						DRO Install on a 1340 GT
					

I purchased a DRO along with my 1340GT from PM. In hindsight it might have been a good idea to pay the extra and have them install the DRO. Instead I spent the extra money on tooling and a drill chuck. Not I'm facing an install with no instructions :)  For those of you who have a 1340 (or...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> Here’s another solution.  I’ve been extremely happy with this arrangement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful installation and some great ideas for me. Thanks!


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

Here is the arrangement for lifting with all the assorted pieces of wood to protect the mechanical bits. The leveler came with the crane and allowed me to get it well balanced. The lifting straps are 4 footers. I'm very close to placing it on the base.


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## riveter (Aug 14, 2022)

Speaking of the base. It is a mess. The paint on the doors is scuffed and scratched and the doors do not close all the way. I will have to get some paint mixed up and repaint the doors. And I will try to bend the door hinges so the doors shut. But the cabinets are square, so I got lucky on that I guess.


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## skcncx (Aug 14, 2022)

riveter said:


> Well this is disappointing. I bought the MagXact Magnetic MX-200L 2 Axis Lathe LCD DRO for my lathe. I was watching an installation video (see DRO Pros on YouTube for installation videos) and I realized my cross slide has a locking screw and sure enough the X Axis DRO scale covers it. I don't want to give up the locking feature. That screw pushes on the gib to lock the slide. I can't figure out a way to have both the locking feature and the DRO. I would rather give up the DRO and keep the cross slide locking feature if I can't have both. I thought about notching the scale extrusion (crazy I know), but there is still not enough space above the hole. I bought this lathe (PM-1236T 12″x36″ Ultra Precision Lathe) to make model engines, so I want accuracy. And locking the carriage and cross slide are important for doing accurate work.
> 
> View attachment 417211


I purchased slim scales, only 16mm wide/tall.... I'm hoping I can install above the locking screw without any interferance... otherwise, it seems like most others, using spacers is the way to go.  Doesn't look like PM sells smaller scales.


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## davidpbest (Aug 14, 2022)

riveter said:


> It looks like the bottom shelf is 1/2" thick, same as the standard 250-201. So a 5/8" tool would be at the same height, right?


This is right out of my *book on indexable tooling* for the medium-sized lathe:






Buy one and see how it works.  If it helps with your tool height issue, load up on a bunch of them like I did.





David


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## davidpbest (Aug 14, 2022)

riveter said:


> Beautiful installation and some great ideas for me. Thanks!


The full DRO *build log is here* if you want more ideas - each photo has a description that explains what you are seeing.


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## riveter (Aug 15, 2022)

skcncx said:


> I purchased slim scales, only 16mm wide/tall.... I'm hoping I can install above the locking screw without any interferance... otherwise, it seems like most others, using spacers is the way to go.  Doesn't look like PM sells smaller scales.


My lathe has 20mm above the screw, so it should fit.


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## riveter (Aug 15, 2022)

riveter said:


> Speaking of the base. It is a mess. The paint on the doors is scuffed and scratched and the doors do not close all the way. I will have to get some paint mixed up and repaint the doors. And I will try to bend the door hinges so the doors shut. But the cabinets are square, so I got lucky on that I guess.
> View attachment 417254
> View attachment 417255
> View attachment 417256
> View attachment 417257


I came up with a way to properly bend the door hinges so the doors close. I placed a stack of wood shims about 5/8" thick between the cabinet and the door on the hinge side and forced the door closed. I did this at the bottom and top a couple of times. It bent the hinges into the proper shape so the door would seat on the cabinet. No problem.
And P.M. is sending me a new name badge. And I will repaint the doors.


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## Firstram (Aug 15, 2022)

riveter said:


> Have you seen any positive comments on this one? Apparently it can be dialed in to run true.
> 6″ Adjustable Ultra Precision 3 Jaw Chuck, D1-4 Mount


I have one of those and I'm very happy with it.


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## riveter (Aug 16, 2022)

I got the lathe onto the stand. I did it alone with no problems. I used two pointed wood dowels to help guide it to the holes (a hint from P.M. tech support). I did a cursory leveling and am doing pre-startup checks. Once I get it bolted down and running I'll do the final leveling.


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## JMBrewer (Aug 17, 2022)

where did you get your leveling casters and what size do ya order? Getting ready to set up 1340 this weekend and not too about using those orange casters that came with the base or go ahead and grab something else from McMaster, etc.. Really only want to have to do this once


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## JMBrewer (Aug 17, 2022)

It looks like you used the same ones that are in the drawing for your mill base. The 6111K246 from McMaster I think. Did they fit up pretty well for you in the existing holes and get it leveled fairly painless?


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## riveter (Aug 18, 2022)

Leveling feet are Nickel-Plated Steel with 4" Long 5/8"-11 Threaded Stud.  McMaster-Carr 6111K58.
As for leveling, no problem. And I am happy to report that the spindle is at a good working height of 47.5 inches.


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## riveter (Aug 21, 2022)

Big Problem?
I have been inspecting everything I can on this lathe so if there is a problem, I can notify P.M. and get it taken care of. I have leveled it and made some cuts with it. The manual says this:


> Check and adjust level front-to-back across the bed using a matched pair of spacer blocks to clear the Vee tenons on the bed ways. The blocks need to be ground, or otherwise accurately dimensioned. Alternatively, check for level on the ground surface of the cross slide as the carriage is traversed from end to end.


I used machinist level and a pair of 123 blocks which I verified with my 2 inch micrometer. These were placed on the flat ways and the bed was leveled near the headstock and near the tailstock. All 6 feet were adjusted so they are carrying weight.
I then placed the level on the cross slide. I expected it to be coplaner to the ways, but the level showed the cross slide to be tilted away from the operator side. It takes a 0.030 inch shim to get the level to indicate level.
I'm not an expert, but I think this is a problem. At the least, the tool will get lower as I feed across the ways. And I do carefully set the tool holder so the tool is aligned in Z to the spindle center line. Indicating the cross slide with reference to the bed ways shows the tool holder is traveling downhill. I flipped the straightedge end for end and got the same result. The tool drops 0.015 inch over about 7 inches travel.
Can anyone confirm that their cross slide is level when the bed is level?


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## NCjeeper (Aug 21, 2022)

I would use the 1-2-3 blocks on the flat ways and measure at the head stock and then the tailstock to see if you have any bed twist. Adjust accordingly to take out any twist.


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## riveter (Aug 21, 2022)

NCjeeper said:


> I would use the 1-2-3 blocks on the flat ways and measure at the head stock and then the tailstock to see if you have any bed twist. Adjust accordingly to take out any twist.


I did the flat ways method first and used the leveling feet to remove the twist from the bed. Then I cross checked with the level on top of the cross slide and discovered the surface is not coplaner to the bed ways.


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## mksj (Aug 21, 2022)

The carriage is at a different level then the flat surfaces of the ways, they are almost always not at the same level, and for that matter it makes no difference as long as there is no bed twist (i.e. the bubble is in the same position from one end to the other). I prefer to use 123 blocks on the flats of the ways to measure for bed twist. others prefer the carriage. Use on OR the other.


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## Jeff.64 (Aug 21, 2022)

I checked mine (PM1127) and found that the foot stock flat and the carriage flat are not in the same plane.  Crap mines out too.  Then I thought about it.  It doesn't matter as long as the bed is not twisted.  If the motion of the cross slide is in a straight line, it will not matter what angle the radial line from the center of rotation the tool follows relative to the plane created by the foot stock flat and the carriage flat, as long as the endpoint is at the center of rotation of the work.  Congratulations on your new machine


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## riveter (Aug 24, 2022)

It is probably alright for most lathe work. But I have a milling vise that I want to use on the lathe as a backup milling option. I can't do accurate milling with a vise that runs downhill with respect to the spindle. I have reached out to P.M. for a solution. They are contacting the factory.


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## skcncx (Aug 24, 2022)

riveter said:


> It is probably alright for most lathe work. But I have a milling vise that I want to use on the lathe as a backup milling option. I can't do accurate milling with a vise that runs downhill with respect to the spindle. I have reached out to P.M. for a solution. They are contacting the factory.


I would think a cross slide that runs down or up hill to the spindle is an issue for turning as well... if you have a larger diameter that you are turning down a bit on the outside you could be above center line and below the center line as you get closer to the center and vice versa.... maybe not enough to make a big difference.  I have no expertise!

What milling vise do you have?  I've wondered if one is worth it when I get my PM-1236T for the simple things.... though, I'm actually considering  their PM728VT as a starter mill when I pick up my lathe in a couple months.  They have a lot of these in stock.


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## riveter (Aug 24, 2022)

skcncx said:


> I would think a cross slide that runs down or up hill to the spindle is an issue for turning as well... if you have a larger diameter that you are turning down a bit on the outside you could be above center line and below the center line as you get closer to the center and vice versa.... maybe not enough to make a big difference.  I have no expertise!
> 
> What milling vise do you have?  I've wondered if one is worth it when I get my PM-1236T for the simple things.... though, I'm actually considering  their PM728VT as a starter mill when I pick up my lathe in a couple months.  They have a lot of these in stock.


There is a cosine error introduced by a downhill running cross slide. It would affect the accuracy of diameter turning. It is minor, but my aim is to reduce sources of error. The milling vise is a Palmgren. It looks like it will require an adapter to fit it to the lathe.


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## tq60 (Aug 24, 2022)

Your ways ma be at different heights reference to center

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## mksj (Aug 24, 2022)

I do not follow what the issue is, as long as the distance from the center of the spindle to the cross slide remains the same when measured at 90 degrees from the cross slide to the center of the spindle along its travel. The carriage ways are separate from the tailstock ways, so using 123 blocks as shown is measuring the flat of the tailstock way to the flat of the carriage way. As I mentioned the the bed flat surfaces height varies relative to the cross slide level, all that matters is there is no bed twist and no change to the cutter height/spindle center through the cross slide travel.


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## riveter (Aug 24, 2022)

mksj said:


> I do not follow what the issue is, as long as the distance from the center of the spindle to the cross slide remains the same when measured at 90 degrees from the cross slide to the center of the spindle along its travel. The carriage ways are separate from the tailstock ways, so using 123 blocks as shown is measuring the flat of the tailstock way to the flat of the carriage way. As I mentioned the the bed flat surfaces height varies relative to the cross slide level, all that matters is there is no bed twist and no change to the cutter height/spindle center through the cross slide travel.


The two flat ways appear to be in the same plane. And the PM-12136-T manual says:


> Check and adjust level front-to-back across the bed using a matched pair of spacer blocks to clear the Vee tenons on the bed ways.


So using the flat ways is how the bed is leveled. I did that and then placed my level on the cross slide and found it to be way out of level. It took a 0.030 inch shim to bring the level back into level on the cross slide. I then placed a ground straightedge on the 123 blocks, mounted an indicator in the tool holder and fed the cross slide across the bed indicating off the straightedge. The indicator showed the tool holder traveling down hill 0.015 inch in about 7 inches. So if I mounted a milling vise on the cross slide and took a cut with an endmill, the cut would not be parallel to the fixed jaw of the vise. I posted a video which should make it clear.


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## mksj (Aug 24, 2022)

The manual indicates you use one or the other, they are not the same. On my 1340GT the difference was the same as you show, on my ERL-1340 there is also a difference in level between the two surfaces. As I mentioned, the only thing that is relevant is that is that the surface that is moving cross slide remains at the same perpendicular distance (height to center i.e. parallel) accross the cutting plane. You could attach a dial gauge or test indicator to the center of the chuck down vertically and then sweep the top of the cross slide and measure the relative change in height, it should remain the same (+/- 0.001"). Level is relative to determine bed twist, as long as you use the same measuring points along the bed, but I have yet to see a lathe that the flats are level with the cross slide surface or the V ways.

I prefer to use the 123 blocks on the flat parts of the way to determine level, others will use the peaks of the ways or the carriage. On a lathe with worn ways, it is a bit different.


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## riveter (Aug 24, 2022)

mksj said:


> The manual indicates you use one or the other, they are not the same. On my 1340GT the difference was the same as you show, on my ERL-1340 there is also a difference in level between the two surfaces. As I mentioned, the only thing that is relevant is that is that the surface that is moving cross slide remains at the same perpendicular distance (height to center i.e. parallel) accross the cutting plane. You could attach a dial gauge or test indicator to the center of the chuck down vertically and then sweep the top of the cross slide and measure the relative change in height, it should remain the same (+/- 0.001"). Level is relative to determine bed twist, as long as you use the same measuring points along the bed, but I have yet to see a lathe that the flats are level with the cross slide surface or the V ways.
> 
> I prefer to use the 123 blocks on the flat parts of the way to determine level, others will use the peaks of the ways or the carriage. On a lathe with worn ways, it is a bit different.
> View attachment 418107





> You could attach a dial gauge or test indicator to the center of the chuck down vertically and then sweep the top of the cross slide and measure the relative change in height, it should remain the same (+/- 0.001")


I will do this test tomorrow.


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## qualitymachinetools (Aug 24, 2022)

Mkjs  got it.  The cross slide is not going to be in plane with the 2 flat ways.  Carriage only uses one flat way in the back, and then the V in the front. The other flat is for the tailstock.   They are parallel to each other, but not in relation to the carriage. 
   The flats are one way to level the bed to make sure no twist.        I have never seen a lathe that was dead on or even within a few thousandths of the flat ways compared to the cross slide. 

 Its hard to explain, but think slant bed CNC Lathe. Your tool is not moving .030 up and down with the difference there.


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## mksj (Aug 24, 2022)

Below is the measurement in height sweeping my cross slide about 5" (I did not want to remove my QCTP), the dial indicator lines are 0.0001". If you recall my cross slide appeared tilted relative to the flats, but essentially the perpendicular height from the cross slide to the center of the chuck is unchanged while sweeping the top of the cross slide with the indicator attached to the chuck. Pretty tight tolerances when you consider all the surfaces that need to be spot on when machined/scraped.


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## riveter (Aug 25, 2022)

I indicated my cross slide with respect to the spindle and it looks good. I think this is the correct way to test what I was looking for. Thanks everyone for helping me with this. Now I can get on with making nice things.


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## tredding (Sep 3, 2022)

I am at the point of ordering the PM-1236, $2k less and it comes with the stand, 4 jaw chuck and Plate.  But I have not pulled the trigger yet. PM is on Labor Dat Break until Tuesday, and so I have another 36 hours to worry the decision to death. For a pure hobby guy that has done no machining until just a few months ago, for all of 60 years, .... well .... I doubt I will be buying another in the next decade or two. Can anyone talk me out of the cheaper machine?  Or should I just get on with it and pull the trigger?


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## mksj (Sep 3, 2022)

Having been in the same position years ago, I ended up with the 1340GT because I previously had a Chinese mainland mill and regretted  all the fit and finish issues. If you have the fund's buy the best you can. Also, do not count what comes with the lathe, chances are the more you get the cheaper it is. Buy better, buy less. The 4J Chinese chuck that came with my previous lathe was junk.


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## Ischgl99 (Sep 4, 2022)

I went through the same consideration two years ago and quickly came to the conclusion I did not want to deal with Chinese quality issues.  I have not been happy with most of the Chinese products I have purchased and decided I would rather cry once, then every time I used it.  My 1236T was not issue free, but minor compared to other Chinese products I have.  

The included chucks in the Chinese 1236 are likely to be lower quality then you can buy afterwards, so that was one of the reasons I did not consider that lathe very long.  The three jaw chuck that comes with the 1236T does not have a country of origin on it, so I assume it is Chinese, and it is not something I would buy separately, but it works.  The 4 jaw PM sells is from Taiwan and very good, and I am glad I bought that with my lathe.

The 1236T has NSK P5 tolerance bearings, I don’t know what the Chinese 1236 has, but unless the bearings were from a major brand, I would not trust them.  There were a couple threads here recently about Grizzly lathes where the spindle bearings of the Chinese made lathes were standard tolerance but being passed off as higher quality, so that alone is worth the difference in price to me.


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## StevSmar (Sep 6, 2022)

tredding said:


> I am at the point of ordering the PM-1236, $2k less and it comes with the stand, 4 jaw chuck and Plate. But I have not pulled the trigger yet. PM is on Labor Dat Break until Tuesday, and so I have another 36 hours to worry the decision to death.


When I started looking at lathes I visited Busy-Bee tools in Calgary to see what was available. I was very disappointed with the quality of (the Chinese made) Lathes they had on display. I’m sure there are exceptional quality Chinese lathes available, but Busy-Bee didn’t appear to stock them. It was quite disheartening.

It seemed like the longer I looked, the more comfortable I became with spending an amount of money that months before would have seemed crazy. So I started looking at machines which potentially were of higher quality. After contacting Precision Matthews, I indicated I’d prefer quality over price and they suggested I consider the PM-1236T. I’ve not been disappointed, it definitely has the fit and finish I was looking for, and I’m very happy I didn’t settle for “what appears to be good enough” rather than “what I’d like”.

I cannot comment on the quality of the PM-1236 as I’ve never seen one.

Good luck with your decision! That’s a fair cost difference, so it’s understandably a hard decision to make.


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## tredding (Sep 7, 2022)

StevSmar said:


> When I started looking at lathes I visited Busy-Bee tools in Calgary to see what was available. I was very disappointed with the quality of (the Chinese made) Lathes they had on display. I’m sure there are exceptional quality Chinese lathes available, but Busy-Bee didn’t appear to stock them. It was quite disheartening.
> 
> It seemed like the longer I looked, the more comfortable I became with spending an amount of money that months before would have seemed crazy. So I started looking at machines which potentially were of higher quality. After contacting Precision Matthews, I indicated I’d prefer quality over price and they suggested I consider the PM-1236T. I’ve not been disappointed, it definitely has the fit and finish I was looking for, and I’m very happy I didn’t settle for “what appears to be good enough” rather than “what I’d like”.
> 
> ...


To satisfy me, it only has to be markedly better than my current 7X14.  It will hands-down manage that.  It is unlikely I will do any heavy metal work but the PM-1236 will be much faster, taking deeper cuts than the 7X14 saving me a considerable amount of time.  I am looking forward to having fun making chips.  Thank you for the chat.  Terry - W6LMJ


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## riveter (Sep 7, 2022)

I got my DRO installed. Now I need to get the lathe set up so it can turn good parts. I have two problems that need to be sorted out. It turns tapers and it makes a rough finish. So today I made a headstock test bar. It is 12 inches long 12L14 steel. I have 9 inches sticking out from the collet. I have the collet chuck dialed in to less than 0.001 inch runout. I took light cuts and measured the diameters at both ends. I am getting 0.002 inch taper over 9 inches. The lathe bed is level (no twist). With the lathe level, I think I need to try to rotate the headstock in accordance with the user manual. I did try lifting the back leveling foot on the tailstock end, but no joy. I put a 0.015 inch shim under the foot. It still turned a taper, so I removed the shim. Now with the lathe level I will try to carefully rotate the headstock.
And I am getting a rough finish. I have my gibs adjusted to what seems good to me, so I don't suspect the gibs are the cause of the rough finish. But I do have radial play in the spindle of about 0.003 inches when I tug on the test bar. There is no axial play. And when I indicate inside the spindle taper, it is about 0.0001 inch (one tenth of a thou). But with a part in the chuck, I can wiggle it and measure about 0.003 inch radial play. With no axial play, I am hesitant to try to tighten up the bearings. I need to think about it. And I have been talking to P.M. tech support as I run into problems.

The Test Bar






Test Bar Taper

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2nK8493

Spindle Play (This is not an accurate way to measure spindle play. See next page for accurate method.)

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2nKedYY

Rough Finish

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2nKfbrU


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## tredding (Sep 7, 2022)

Thank you for sharing your initial experiences with the lathe.  I will follow along and try to learn.  Nice videos.  It certainly makes it easier to provide informed comments.  I would look at the gibs and make sure your headstock is ridgid.  I suspect that is affecting the smoothness and accuracy of your cut. I assume your cross slide and compound are locked? Did you do a run-in with the lathe after cleaning and re-oiling?


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## Ischgl99 (Sep 7, 2022)

Make sure your collet chuck is sitting flat against the spindle and not rocking.  I had slight burrs around the screw holes on the back plate that prevented it from sitting flat and once those were removed, I got better performance out of my chuck.


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## BGHansen (Sep 7, 2022)

Are you certain that your tail stock is on center?  That can cause a little taper also.

Bruce


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## riveter (Sep 7, 2022)

BGHansen said:


> Are you certain that your tail stock is on center?  That can cause a little taper also.
> 
> Bruce


I cut the test bar in the collet chuck without the tailstock. That appears to be way to make a headstock test bar. Very light cuts are taken to prevent deflection.


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## riveter (Sep 7, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> Make sure your collet chuck is sitting flat against the spindle and not rocking.  I had slight burrs around the screw holes on the back plate that prevented it from sitting flat and once those were removed, I got better performance out of my chuck.


I made sure both surfaces were clean and I checked the runout which was less that one thou.


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## riveter (Sep 7, 2022)

tredding said:


> Thank you for sharing your initial experiences with the lathe.  I will follow along and try to learn.  Nice videos.  It certainly makes it easier to provide informed comments.  I would look at the gibs and make sure your headstock is ridgid.  I suspect that is affecting the smoothness and accuracy of your cut. I assume your cross slide and compound are locked? Did you do a run-in with the lathe after cleaning and re-oiling?


This is my first time setting up a new lathe, so I am still figuring out what to measure and why. But I know for certain it is turning tapers and making rough cuts. I measured taper on parts of only a couple of inches long. And I did have the cross slide and compound locked down. And thanks for bringing that up. I did not do any kind of long run in. I followed the start up procedure in the manual. I did make sure the oil level was correct in the headstock and the apron. And I oiled the change gears and all the oil points. I also greased the gears in the drive end. As for the gibs, I have them adjusted by feel. l keep the compound pretty tight and locked down when cutting.


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## tredding (Sep 7, 2022)

Thinking about your gauge dancing around. Is it possible your test gauge, probe, has a flat spot from wear, contributing to the problem?


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## riveter (Sep 7, 2022)

tredding said:


> Thinking about your gauge dancing around. Is it possible your test gauge, probe, has a flat spot from wear, contributing to the problem?


That is a half thou gage sweeping a rough surface. I cut it at a coarse feed rate with a small radius carbide cutter to accent the toolmarks. But the toolmarks should be uniform. Instead I see variation in the depth of cut. And I did measure more than 2 thou of play in the spindle when I wiggle the test bar. I don't think it is the entire headstock wiggling. But I don't find any axial play, so I am hesitant to tighten up the spindle bearings. I'm a little out of my depth here. I'll do some more tests tomorrow.


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## riveter (Sep 7, 2022)

Here is what I think is the accurate way to measure spindle play. This is done with the indicator base on the top of the headstock. I had done it this way a couple of weeks ago and I determined there is no play in the spindle. This confirms that. Tomorrow I will tighten up the carriage gibs and see if the surface finish improves.

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2nKgw2e

I'm confused as to what is causing deflection here. And I did check the headstock bolts tight. Maybe I'm twisting the whole lathe bed when I pull on the collet.

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2nKedYY


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## Ischgl99 (Sep 7, 2022)

Put your gauge on the chuck body as well and do that test.


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## mksj (Sep 7, 2022)

riveter said:


> cut the test bar in the collet chuck without the tailstock. That appears to be way to make a headstock test bar. Very light cuts are taken to prevent deflection.


Not really, the general rule is to not to have a stick out of more than 4-5X the diameter of the rod, the 5X is for more rigid machines. You do not describe the cutter you are using, but  the DOC is a function of the nose radius and cutting edge profile/rake/edge, too shallow a depth/incorrect feed rate and you will get a finish like you have. My experience with with 5C collets, which is my primary used chuck is that they do not hold stock very rigid and they are prone to skew the work due to the nature of the 5C collet. I would use a standard chuck or an ER collet chuck. If you want to do light cuts and longer stock unsupported.  I would use a larger diameter rod stock like aluminum and use a sharp cutting tool HSS or ground edge insert with the feed set appropriately for the material, and/or do a two collar test. You cannot cut a 1" steel bar out to 9" unsupported, it will deflect and the finish will be bad no matter what the material. 

Do not induce bed twist in a new machine to compensate for other factors that are causing your problems. The first thing I would recommend is check the headstock alignment, as just about every 1236T/1340GT I have encountered was out of alignment, and most individuals were trying to twist the bed to compensate. Get a MT5 precision test bar or use Rollie's Dad's Lathe Headstock Alignment Method which works very well, and then you can do the two collar test. Be aware that lathes/work will flex, and the cutter DOC you read on a DRO/Dial will often be slightly off from what you measure. So even if you tail stock is perfectly aligned, you may have to do very small adjustment to get accuracy in the sub 0.001" range on work supported with the tail stock. 

Lots of previous threads on this subject:








						Taper on a new lathe during a normal turn.
					

Hello every one.  Got a question for the group.  I just got my new lathe in finally and getting it all set up.  After doing some measurements, what is an acceptable taper from tailstock to head stock on a normal turn, say.....along a 12" turn?  Thanks




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				











						A head scratcher here …
					

I have an interesting issue with my PM-1340GT that I am trying to figure out.  I put a 2”x12" bar in the chuck and performed a collar alignment test  (with no tailstock). Took light cuts (.002") -- I then put a .0001" indicator on the carriage and ran the indicator over both collars  -- I am off...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Just for fun (Sep 8, 2022)

Mark, Thanks for the info and the Rollie's Dad's Lathe Headstock document.

I have yet to even check mine.....  I did level the lathe with a precision level when I first set it up and then again, a couple month later.  The only other thing that I have done was installed a dead center in both the spindle and the tail stock, ran them up close together with an old feeler gauge in between the two centers and adjusted the tail stock so the feeler gauge was square.


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## davidpbest (Sep 8, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> Mark, Thanks for the info and the Rollie's Dad's Lathe Headstock document.
> 
> I have yet to even check mine.....  I did level the lathe with a precision level when I first set it up and then again, a couple month later.  The only other thing that I have done was installed a dead center in both the spindle and the tail stock, ran them up close together with an old feeler gauge in between the two centers and adjusted the tail stock so the feeler gauge was square.


Don't forget - a skim cut is always helpful.  Except when it isn't.


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## riveter (Sep 8, 2022)

mksj said:


> Not really, the general rule is to not to have a stick out of more than 4-5X the diameter of the rod, the 5X is for more rigid machines. You do not describe the cutter you are using, but  the DOC is a function of the nose radius and cutting edge profile/rake/edge, too shallow a depth/incorrect feed rate and you will get a finish like you have. My experience with with 5C collets, which is my primary used chuck is that they do not hold stock very rigid and they are prone to skew the work due to the nature of the 5C collet. I would use a standard chuck or an ER collet chuck. If you want to do light cuts and longer stock unsupported.  I would use a larger diameter rod stock like aluminum and use a sharp cutting tool HSS or ground edge insert with the feed set appropriately for the material, and/or do a two collar test. You cannot cut a 1" steel bar out to 9" unsupported, it will deflect and the finish will be bad no matter what the material.
> 
> Do not induce bed twist in a new machine to compensate for other factors that are causing your problems. The first thing I would recommend is check the headstock alignment, as just about every 1236T/1340GT I have encountered was out of alignment, and most individuals were trying to twist the bed to compensate. Get a MT5 precision test bar or use Rollie's Dad's Lathe Headstock Alignment Method which works very well, and then you can do the two collar test. Be aware that lathes/work will flex, and the cutter DOC you read on a DRO/Dial will often be slightly off from what you measure. So even if you tail stock is perfectly aligned, you may have to do very small adjustment to get accuracy in the sub 0.001" range on work supported with the tail stock.
> 
> ...


Thanks mksj for the advice and the links which I have read and will read again. I have ordered the MT5 test bar and will report back here with my results.


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