# Small o.d. grinder job



## Mutt (Feb 21, 2019)

Has any one ever seen a small o.d. grinder ???? (Small , like it doesn't take up a foot print the size of a  13 x 40 lathe) I mIght need to buy one 


I need to grind some pins that are  presently .725 + or - a thou, to .721"    Material is A2 hardened to about 52 Rc

The pins are less than 2" long and have   60º centers on either end.  I have one dozen that need to be ground, Any one up for the job?I don't think my lathe and old Themac tool post grinder can do the job (I could be wrong)


----------



## Cooter Brown (Feb 21, 2019)

You might be able to do some OD grinding with a small tool and cutter grinder like this one...







						BL1256: FOOTSEE/CHEVALIER #FCG-610 BENCH TOP GRINDER - McKean Machinery Sales, Inc
					

FOOTSEE/CHEVALIER #FCG-610 BENCH TOP GRINDER | McKean Machinery: Quality Used Industrial Machinery, Production Equipment, Industrial Supplies & Machine Tools.



					www.mckeanmachinery.com


----------



## Mutt (Feb 21, 2019)

the size is right, but there is nothing to turn the pin while the grinding wheel is turning


----------



## 4ssss (Feb 21, 2019)

Let someone with a centerless grinder do it for you


----------



## Mutt (Feb 22, 2019)

Do ya know somebody with a centerless grinder that isn't into million dollar goverment contracts?


----------



## Cadillac (Feb 22, 2019)

I have the same style grinder picture and also a surface grinder. I also have a master grind spin fixture. When you say they have centers do you mean inverted or male? I’ve havent ground any pins yet but I might just try this weekend. If all goes well I’ll give it a whirl.


----------



## Mutt (Feb 22, 2019)

the straight pin  started life as a piece of  3/4" O-1, machined down  closer to the .7208, then a 1/4"hole drilled thru it , then a 60º center drill spotted on both ends of the pin, so whoever grinds it can stick it between centers


----------



## 4ssss (Feb 22, 2019)

There's a bunch that come up when you google. Try this one, it says he has a low minimum charge.









						On Time Centerless Grinding
					

Houston Centerless Grinding



					www.ontimecenterless.com


----------



## Mutt (Feb 22, 2019)

Ok, So I get some quotes from some companies. Grindall.com quoted me $3164.98 plus shipping (895 +724.98+1545) to grind these pins.
As I get quotes in, I'll post them.. These  companies are INSANE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For $3g, I can buy my own freakin' grinding machine and do them my self. What's wrong with people today? Greed has truly run a muck


----------



## Cadillac (Feb 22, 2019)

For a dozen Yikes im in the wrong business. Hey looking through McMaster today at work I  saw they have plug gauges 2" long in your size are 8 bucks. Don't know if you need the centers in them but seems pretty reasonable. Their tolerances were alittle better than I'd do +-.00001.


----------



## Mutt (Feb 22, 2019)

These are crank pins. Don't think gage pins would work in this situation !!!!


----------



## Mutt (Feb 22, 2019)

next up is Minnestoagrinding.com  at $174.60 + $287.51 + 656.52  =  $1118.63
2/3 cheaper but still ridiculous.  The actual grinding cost per pin is fair, $9.98 each for the straight pins, but  $75 "set-up fee . Insert pin between centers, move stone to pin, zero and grind. $75 to do that? I think I'm in the wrong profession >>>>>>>>>


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 22, 2019)

It's called shop time . These aren't hobby machinist companies you're dealing with . They have overhead , pay their employees , electric bills , rent etc . I would suggest buying a Cylindrical grinder , moving it into your own space , and doing them yourself . That way the pins will be free , or whatever you pay yourself .


----------



## Mutt (Feb 22, 2019)

Yeah, "corporate capitalism" 

So I start a business and I work for myself. I have to pay for all my own equipment, my own material,my building, my overhead, my insurance,etc; but just because my company  isn't greedy as satan himself and trying to make millions of dollars a year off the backs of others, instead of just working harder  and putting out more product for the million, it doesn't count.

 I get a mortgage on a 2 million dollar property, hire some employees and pay them some money and buy them insurance, I can charge $8,900 for a $20 part  ??? And all that makes it right huh?

Never understood how these people sleep at night. 

I've heard too many times, "oh, we HAVE to charge that much because of this , that and some other stuff" Then I look at the public records, only to find out that company turned a $8 million profit for the year>. So you HAVE to charge that much, why? It's NOT because you HAVE to, it's because of your greediness.  

It's like when folks rip off Walmart or Home Depot, their signs say " Please don't shoplift from us.  You only hurt the customers when we have to go up on the cost all our stuff  because someone stole from us"  

So instead of Home Depot hiring some in-store security, they pass their loss onto the customers !!!!! If someone ripped me off, my prices don't go up, I just take the loss and go on with it.


----------



## Mutt (Feb 22, 2019)

Oh, and I charge $25 per actual shop hour. If I am welding or machining for one hour, you owe me $25.  I have overhead and all that crap too, but I like to sleep at night


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 22, 2019)

Most likely you also have a full time job , with benefits , insurance etc . and your shop is in your home . 

Go full time at home and charge $25 an hour and you'll starve in a month . NBS .


----------



## Mutt (Feb 22, 2019)

Sorry to bust yer bubble ;  but this *IS* my full time job and has been since 2002.  I have been charging $25 an hour since I started.  17 years so far & I've never went up on my labor charge. Thank the Lord I don't have  to be late on a utility bill, car payment, insurance, tags, short of food, upkeep on the house and all the vehicles etc.  Still put money back monthly. Buy tools and/or tooling darn near *every single day* so I can do more for people at a fair price and not have to pad the pockets of the greedy devils to do it. 

Still charging $25 an hour and making a reasonable  living..............Matter of fact, I just scored this $3800 (retail)  Oliver drill sharpener 2 weeks ago for $316 (it's in excellent working order, fixing to get a total cleaning, a new original cast iron wheel guard came in today and a new cup wheel will be here Tuesday, should clean up very nicely, heavy cast iron, about 225 lbs) and this 75 lb.  US Auto Box Machine Company, Massachusetts  tilt table for my Bridgeport mill for $120. 

                                                                    Want more money???
                                                                        WORK HARDER







All this needs is a paint job, 
Awesome stuff that I worked for instead of gouging the public to get it


----------



## Cadillac (Feb 22, 2019)

Must be location because I would starve at that rate! A weld shop would be a easy 100hr machine shop rate I would guess at least the same. Bump up that shop rate you deserve it.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 22, 2019)

My bubble isn't bursted !  If you sleep well charging $25 an hour , most likely you could sleep GREAT at $15 an hour . 



Mutt said:


> Want more money???
> WORK HARDER



Most individuals prefer to " work smart , and not hard " . One day you'll get old and won't feel like working " hard " . 

In the end , charge what the market commands , $15 or $250 . As far as the pins , someone whom has a small shop may grind them for $25 an hour , but ain't no way a machine shop will do anything at that price . Most have minimum charges also .

Also , those pins started out as A2 and now they are O2 ?  And $75 set-up and $10 a pin comes up to $195 in my book . How did you arrive at the $1111.83 total ? If it's the shipping that adds all that cost , we're ALL in the wrong business !


----------



## Mutt (Feb 23, 2019)

Cadillac said:


> Must be location because I would starve at that rate! A weld shop would be a easy 100hr machine shop rate I would guess at least the same. Bump up that shop rate you deserve it.




 I live in the country, about 55  due east of downtown Dallas. and 4 miles from a town. A majority of my business comes from the internet. I look at  it this way. I charge $25 a hour for shop time. People that live out in the country around ain't rich by any means. A friend of mine opened a automotive shop  a few hundred yards away from me. He's a pretty good mechanic.  I asked him how much he planned to charge, he said $65 an hour. I shook my head and told him he wouldn't last long at that rate and less than 2 years later, he's driving a truck for Oreillys. There was a chopper shop in the next city closer to Dallas. They charged 100 per hour They told me my business wouldn't last long because of my location. I told them I had already been in business for 12 years or so. One year later, that shop went outta business. 

 But ya got to realize, these days, people that want to make it,  got to do more than just have a little machine/ welding shop. I machine parts and sell them, I buy and sell  any thing that is worth a dime.. I'd far rather work my butt off, than to get ill-gotten gain.   Ya reap what ya sow


----------



## Mutt (Feb 23, 2019)

mmcmdl said:


> My bubble isn't bursted !  If you sleep well charging $25 an hour , most likely you could sleep GREAT at $15 an hour .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 I sleep just fine at $25 an hour and I'm sure my customers do too. You can't charge, what people don't have. That's a losing proposition. 

I AM a machine shop and I do whatever the job requires for $25 a hour. The one quote said " $85 minimum lot charge"  Means nothing to me as I work by the hour.. I guess if I paid that dude $3g to grind these pins I sell for $35 a piece, he can continue paying the mortgage in the mansion he lives in, but it ain't gonna happen.. I could never charge $350 for one of these pins, but I still need to pins to make a living, so I will do whatever it takes to make these pins and still be able to sell them for $35 a piece and make a profit.

The straight pins are O-1, the center pins I believe are 8620 and the small pin is A-2. (I machine and heat treat the straight and the small pins myself.) The center pins were made in the '60's , but all the pins are are about the same Rc hardness.  The same  grinding stone is used to grind all 3 different pins

I use to use O-1 on all of them, but A-2 is more wear resistant and doesn't have to be oil quenched (air hardening) before tempering, So I save a step which saves me time.

 As for the $1118, that is for grinding all 3 sets of pins (see price chart above) and that doesn't even include return shipping, which I am 99.999% sure it would not be $8 in a small flat rate box from the Post Office like I would send them in.  It would most likely be UPS and cost $30 or more (whatever they guy feels like charging at that particular time in his life)


----------



## Mutt (Feb 23, 2019)

Most individuals prefer to " work smart , and not hard " . One day you'll get old and won't feel like working " hard " .  

I better have something stashed back for retirement then huh? . Getting old still don't give ya the right to steal from people. I plan to work til the day I die any way. I can rest then.


----------



## rgray (Feb 23, 2019)

mmcmdl said:


> I would suggest buying a Cylindrical grinder , moving it into your own space , and doing them yourself



I have a cylindrical grinder and am wondering how you would accomplish that. Not trying to be smart or confrontational.
My cylindrical runs the part between two dead centers. So requires a drive dog. Would you run with a drive dog and then reverse the part? putting the drive dog on the other end. Doesn't seem like a good way.

I would probably run those on my surface grinder with a between centers fixture. I have one that is motorized but it also has dead centers and requires a drive dog.
I have a second between centers fixture that the center on the drive end does rotate with the part. and my thought was to use something like this and
hope the center would spin the pin for grinding. The only chance of that happening is if an abrasive of some kind was applied to the center that turns to make the pin spin with it.
That fixture is not presently motorized. I have motored it with a ball allen bit and a cordless drill. Not the neatest but saved some wear and tear on the fingers from turning the crank.


----------



## rgray (Feb 23, 2019)

Mutt said:


> The pins are less than 2" long and have 60º centers on either end. I have one dozen that need to be ground, Any one up for the job?



Possible I could do that for you.
My between center fixtures for my surface grinder are accurate. I have built my own rifle chamber reamers.
My issue is how to turn and grind the entire pin. I usually have an area for the drive dog to attach to that spins the part.
Not sure results would be acceptable if grinding part of a pin and flipping to grind the other end.


----------



## Mutt (Feb 23, 2019)

I talked with a friend of mine that has a good sized CNC machine shop in  Iowa. He says there are some companies that make and sell a driver, just like one used for a wood lathe. It has a few teeth that just sorta bite onto the end of the part and drive it. It doesn't have to have a true bite as there isn't much pressure on the part when grinding off .0005 or so. So, mr. Gray, what kind of shank does your drive end have?   Maybe I can locate one of these drivers and get it for ya


----------



## rgray (Feb 23, 2019)

Both that I have I believe are shop or school builds. I got them on ebay.
The one with the center that would turn with the work is the farthest away in the picture.
I got it with no tailstock center and had to build that. The "powered" (rotating) center is one piece with it's spindle.
I am familiar with the drive style you mention. It would take building another spindle to implement that on that fixture (I think?).
That was why I was thinking out loud wondering if an abrasive would be enough to make the part turn with the center.
Also the centers on that fixture are small. Wondering if they are large enough to fit your part centers.

  Also thinking there may be a way to attach a spring loaded drive pin to the drive wheel on the dead center fixture (close one in pic).
It would have to be outside of the center taper since both are dead centers. So not sure if that would drive/work at all.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 23, 2019)

rgray said:


> I have a cylindrical grinder and am wondering how you would accomplish that. Not trying to be smart or confrontational.
> My cylindrical runs the part between two dead centers. So requires a drive dog. Would you run with a drive dog and then reverse the part? putting the drive dog on the other end. Doesn't seem like a good way.



That's exactly how to do it . Long or short , it's a shaft . Drive with a dog between centers and grind up to the dog , then flip and repeat . That grinder will hold .00005 with no problem . You'll need to adjust table to pull the taper out .


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 23, 2019)

I'm picking up my SG on Monday . It would make short work of grinding those shafts . I don't have my converter any longer and it's going to take awhile to move that machine into the other place . Spose to hit 70 degrees here tomorrow so I'll be busy moving things up , and moving things down , but eventually , a small shop will be in existence back where I started .


----------



## rgray (Feb 24, 2019)

mmcmdl said:


> That's exactly how to do it . Long or short , it's a shaft . Drive with a dog between centers and grind up to the dog , then flip and repeat .



So doing it on my cylindrical grinder would be the better way sounds like.
Narrowest wheel I have is 1" 
Flipping the part and attaching the dog will take much longer than the grinding.
Would be much quicker than doing it on the surface grinder though.


----------

