# Bearing Ball with Flat for Vise work...?



## EmilioG

Has anyone tried using the ball bearing with the ground flat on it to hold rough saw stock in a vise?
I just read a machining tip where (it's also in a book), where you take a .750 or 1.00" bearing ball and grind a
flat on it. I've always used a piece of soft aluminum wire. Other's use wood, cylinders of brass, etc...
I'd like to try this. Of course, I would use a piece of brass to protect the flat against the vise jaw.


----------



## Ulma Doctor

i have used bearings without a flat to secure oddly shaped parts in vises with great success.
a flat would make a lot more surface area to clamp against.


----------



## Rustrp

EmilioG said:


> Has anyone tried using the ball bearing with the ground flat on it to hold rough saw stock in a vise?
> I just read a machining tip where (it's also in a book), where you take a .750 or 1.00" bearing ball and grind a
> flat on it. I've always used a piece of soft aluminum wire. Other's use wood, cylinders of brass, etc...
> I'd like to try this. Of course, I would use a piece of brass to protect the flat against the vise jaw.


I haven't but I was watching a video a few days ago and they were also using a piece of round stock. I just haven't had the  occasion since then to use it. Now I need to go find it to get the technical aspect down.


----------



## Rustrp

Ulma Doctor said:


> i have used bearings without a flat to secure oddly shaped parts in vises with great success.
> a flat would make a lot more surface area to clamp against.


That was the use I was trying to remember, uneven surfaces.


----------



## darkzero

It's a good idea & I've seen a number of people using it, there was even one YT'r selling sets that he called Screwyballs.

I don't like how the ball puts an indention on the work piece though. I just use a small dia alum rod. The balls can be cumbersome to setup also if the ball is not that big or if you have fat fingers.

I have one of those Quadrallel things that are sold on ebay. I was going to make one but one day for some reason I threw a bid on one. It never showed up & I was glad cause I didn't want it anymore. I started the return process & it turns out there was some crazy storm where the seller was & they lost power for a while. I verified they were telling the truth, I felt bad & decided to keep it.

Come think about it's not too expensive for what it is & how it's made, hardened, ground, black oxide, etc. Plus it's made in the USA & I'm happy to support the small toolmakers. I haven't even taken it out of the box yet.

Pretty cool though, check em out, shouldn't be hard to make.


----------



## Bob Korves

All the aids mentioned do about the same thing if used correctly.  They allow clamping rough, uneven and/or not parallel work between rigidly parallel vise jaws.  All of the ideas listed will work OK, some better or worse in specific applications.  Soft, cylindrical, spherical, or combinations of those will work.  Having more than one choice is best.  I also use the pulled pins from Pop rivets, steel and aluminum.


----------



## mikey

I use either a BB or aluminum round to square a piece in the vice. The BB is a 3/4" Stainless ball with a flat ground on one side; it goes against the moveable jaw (no shim to protect the jaw) and the round side touches the work. This works well but will leave a small dent on the work. If the work is large and the BB won't fit, I use an aluminum round rod about 3/8" OD X 6" long instead; this does not dent the work. Both work very well.


----------



## darkzero

Ok, I just took it out the box. I take it back, it's not ground. It's made for 6" vises so on my 5" vise it sits above the vise jaws slightly. One day I'll take it apart & mill it down so it sits below my jaws. Pretty cool idea but I definitely could live without it especially for the price it sells for. Oh well. I'll keep using the alumn rod that I've always been using.


----------



## Billh50

I have been using a ball in vise jaw on uneven sawn parts for years.It allows the surface against the solid jaw to sit as flat as possible. Of course only light cuts are recommended. But it does allow the vise to hold more than 1 spot against the solid jaw. I find the ball works better than a rod.


----------



## BGHansen

Made a clamp similar to Darkzero's post above years ago.  I'll have to dig through the drawers to find it, made it for one project.  I used a couple of pieces of 3/8" thick x 1 1/2" tall by 3" long pieces of cold rolled.  Plunged a 3/4" ball end mill into each about an 1/8" deep.  Drilled/tapped a couple of holes on either end of one plate for a couple of guide pins, milled corresponding slots in the other end.  Put a 3/4" ball bearing in the two divots for a pivot.  It worked pretty well but do recall making passes to "drive the wedge" of the cutting forces into the small end of the taper.  I was worried about machining toward the large end of the tapered wedge and driving the wedge out of the vise jaws.

Bruce


----------



## DSaul

I made this, from some 2" aluminum round bar , to hold tapered tubes for bicycle frame building, but you could use one half to clamp any uneven material in the vise.  The V-groove is obviously not necessary for clamping flat objects.


----------



## chips&more

darkzero said:


> Ok, I just took it out the box. I take it back, it's not ground. It's made for 6" vises so on my 5" vise it sits above the vise jaws slightly. One day I'll take it apart & mill it down so it sits below my jaws. Pretty cool idea but I definitely could live without it especially for the price it sells for. Oh well. I'll keep using the alumn rod that I've always been using.


Aren’t those springs? In your pic, they look like screws? I have seen that thing for a while now. Always wondered about using it on a really angled project. And having the project squirt out of the vise. I’m like you and use the round aluminum rod. Using a steel bearing ball is OK I guess. But I would be concerned about the divot/dent it can leave in your work and or jaw…Dave


----------



## woodchucker

DSaul said:


> I made this, from some 2" aluminum round bar , to hold tapered tubes for bicycle frame building, but you could use one half to clamp any uneven material in the vise.  The V-groove is obviously not necessary for clamping flat objects.
> View attachment 230776
> View attachment 230777


I like that, but question, does it hold steady, being that it is round. Whenever I clamp round I wind up using a V block to steady it.


----------



## DSaul

woochucker said:


> I like that, but question, does it hold steady, being that it is round. Whenever I clamp round I wind up using a V block to steady it.


It has worked well for me, but I haven't tried any heavy milling with it.  I just use it to hold the tube for slotting or coping the end with a hole saw.  Another framebuilder makes a set of blocks that has one flat v-block and the other round, but that forces the tube to be angled with respect to the vise jaw.


----------



## EmilioG

Awesome.  I've seen ThatLazyMachinist use brass cylinders.  Maybe putting a small flat on the cylinders may also work?
It's said that the ball bearings do indent the work, so maybe I'll try brass or bronze (if I can find bronze spheres).
In any case, the final result should be a nice square piece if work. The ScrewyBall set is sold out on Ebay. The set came in a fancy wooden box, 3 sizes.  McMasters sells low carbon bearing balls that they say are machinable. 

If you don't want your work indented,  couldn't you put a piece of square brass shim on the work? or will this affect "squareness" on the vise?


How are these very hard BB's flat ground ? I don't have a surface grinder and I would like the flat to be, well....flat.


----------



## chips&more

There are many ways to hold your part/project. Yes, the vise is usually the first that comes to mind. But, think outside the box or the use of a vise. Do a workaround. I usually sleep on it and then come up with a better, faster, nicer and more accurate way. Works for me…Dave


----------



## EmilioG

I'm not worried about holding, I have clamps for rounds or balls.  What kind of abrasive on Rockwell C60 bearing balls?
I don't have a surface grinder?


----------



## Rustrp

EmilioG said:


> How are these very hard BB's flat ground ? I don't have a surface grinder and I would like the flat to be, well....flat.


I'm pretty sure your fingertips to elbow, along with the grinding device needs to be calibrated.

I think since we are holding a part that's uneven, just gripping the BB and holding it against a belt sander or flat sanding/grinding disc will produce the flat needed.


----------



## mikey

EmilioG said:


> It's said that the ball bearings do indent the work, so maybe I'll try brass or bronze (if I can find bronze spheres).
> 
> ... If you don't want your work indented,  couldn't you put a piece of square brass shim on the work? or will this affect "squareness" on the vise?
> 
> ... How are these very hard BB's flat ground ? I don't have a surface grinder and I would like the flat to be, well....flat.



The dent is just a consequence of applying thousands of pounds of pressure at a single point. If you use a ball, you are going to have a dent in the work. This dent is cut off when you square the face it's touching anyway so no big deal. On my little 4" Kurt vise, just 30# of clamping force (not much at the end of the handle) results in over 4,000# of force applied between the jaws - a dent will happen!

The flat can be ground on a belt sander and it is important if using a ball bearing. If you don't grind the flat you WILL dent your jaw face.

The balls that I have are very hard and trying to hold a little 3/4" ball in your fingers while trying to grind a flat on a running belt is ... interesting. If you like, you can make a simple holder. Find a piece of tubing or round rod and chamfer  the inside of one end and just set the ball in it. Use the tubing/rod as a handle to push the ball into the grinding surface. Just grind the flat and turn the machine off before removing pressure on the ball. Voila - a ground flat and no meat lost. 

The ball is useful when all the surfaces you're trying to square are rough and/or irregular. It allows the greatest amount of rotation to bring as much surface area into contact with the fixed jaw of the vise; that's all it does. If you're squaring stock with nominal square faces, such as square or rectangular stock, a round rod is more than adequate for the job and will not dent the work piece. It is wise to use aluminum for this rod; brass or steel is hard and may dent the work or the vise jaw. I suggest you NOT use wire for this; it is too small and soft and will likely be flattened against the work and there goes your round pivot.


----------



## Ulma Doctor

i also like using aluminum tig rod drops to provide the roller function


----------



## Rustrp

Ulma Doctor said:


> i also like using aluminum tig rod drops to provide the roller function


I'm laughing at me. I'm still thinking ball bearing and wondering how does he get a tig aluminum drop (ball) that large. I call them stubs.  You could stand an aluminum rod vertical and melt a good sized ball on the end, and then end up with something to hold it in place with. Finding a decent J-hook with a ball end is difficult so I make my own. I can get a decent shaped 3/8" ball on the end of a piece of 1/4" stainless round.


----------



## Bob Korves

chips&more said:


> There are many ways to hold your part/project. Yes, the vise is usually the first that comes to mind. But, think outside the box or the use of a vise. Do a workaround. I usually sleep on it and then come up with a better, faster, nicer and more accurate way. Works for me…Dave


Why do milling machines have those looong tables if you are only supposed to use the few inches the vise sits on?  Let me say it again, think outside the box!  My vise is off the mill a lot.


----------



## 4GSR

I have several strips of plummers lead that I'll place between the work and the jaw when holding uneven saw surfaces.  It squishes enough to hold the part in place to get a good cut for the next operation. When the lead gets too thin, just fold over and go at it again.


----------



## whitmore

EmilioG said:


> Has anyone tried using the ball bearing with the ground flat on it to hold rough saw stock in a vise?...Of course, I would use a piece of brass to protect the flat against the vise jaw.



I've used such a flatted ball for press work (carbides into hard steel
tapers), where the parallelism of a 50 ton press's piston face and
table was not necessarily good enough.
A half inch aluminum pushblock took a nice spherical dent,
nearly mirror-polished.   The ball against the dent was a 'knuckle' that would
allow some minor  nonparallelism.   It worked out well for me.

For a vise, two aluminum dented cauls would be good, and no need to
grind a flat on the BB.   That's assuming you have ten or twenty tons
of press to make the dents with...


----------



## Kernbigo

This is what i use, but for the life of me i can't remember what i salvaged them off of when i worked in the shop


----------



## Dr John

DSaul said:


> I made this, from some 2" aluminum round bar , to hold tapered tubes for bicycle frame building, but you could use one half to clamp any uneven material in the vise.  The V-groove is obviously not necessary for clamping flat objects.
> View attachment 230776
> View attachment 230777


I like this one. I will definitely make one.


----------



## TakeDeadAim

I have used both ball bearings with a flat, I have a set of them, as well as dowel pins to help hold uneven pieces and to square blocks prior to making parts. This is a simple solution to a common problem.  Some of the job specific tools shown above are, I suppose, a step above the improvised method of the dowel pins.  The ball bearings I have were made specifically for this purpose.


----------



## Spring Hollow

A piece of stock with a hole bored into it smaller than the diameter of the ball bearing would work if you do not want to flatten the ball bearing.  Another option is to press fit it into a relieved bore in some metal stock.

Ken


----------



## Millalot

Using a 3/4" ball bearing works well. I just clamped the ball in a vice and ground a flat with an angle grinder. using it with the mill vice every thing centralises automaticly when you clamp up. I just squared up a V block  from a flame cut piece of steel and the ball clamp method worked great, not to concerned about a dink in the surface.


----------



## Four Corners

EmilioG said:


> Awesome.  I've seen ThatLazyMachinist use brass cylinders.  Maybe putting a small flat on the cylinders may also work?
> It's said that the ball bearings do indent the work, so maybe I'll try brass or bronze (if I can find bronze spheres).
> In any case, the final result should be a nice square piece if work. The ScrewyBall set is sold out on Ebay. The set came in a fancy wooden box, 3 sizes.  McMasters sells low carbon bearing balls that they say are machinable.
> 
> If you don't want your work indented,  couldn't you put a piece of square brass shim on the work? or will this affect "squareness" on the vise?
> 
> 
> How are these very hard BB's flat ground ? I don't have a surface grinder and I would like the flat to be, well....flat.



I was trying to drill a ball bearing a little while ago. Big mistake. Those things are as hard as granite, normally. Drill bits and and mills are ruined very quickly if you press them into the ball bearing. Unless.... I held a ball bearing in some old pliers and heated the thing up with a propane torch until it was red hot and non-magnetic. I'm then I left it sitting on the anvil part of the vise for an hour or so. Then I simply chucked it in the three jaw and faced a flat on it with a HSS tool. Couldn't have been easier. I haven't bothered to harden it again, but if I were to heat it up and drop it in oil or water I'm sure it would go back to being very hard again. The heating process causes the ball to go black, but that can be polished with some Scotch Brite, if you care about that. I didn't do that either.

In this video you can see a clever way to hold spheres more safely than just chucking it up. 



.


----------



## EmilioG

That collar/cap that holds the ball on the pipe, do they come with openings like that?  I've never seen this type of cap.


----------



## Four Corners

EmilioG said:


> That collar/cap that holds the ball on the pipe, do they come with openings like that?  I've never seen this type of cap.


They are simply brass plumbing connectors for working with brass and copper pipe. Something like this: http://m.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-L...-Adapter-1-4-in-x-3-8-in-MIP-800509/300096146


----------



## ColoMid

A handy device I use to hold small parts in the mill vice (that requires parallel clamping contact) is inserting a round punch
drop behind the part as the moving jaw is closed in.  
I have a Heinrich 4T punch mounted on the end of the mill table, so various aluminum 1/8" thickness discs are handy as needed.
They crush down to give a excellent hold. Reusable too.
RichD, Canton, Ga


----------



## Isberg

I made mine from 20 mm ball bearing balls. It was a fairly quick job. If You have fat fingers, make them a little larger.
Clamped them in a vise and ground them flat with an angle grinder, then finished them on the belt sander and finally lapped
the flats to mirror finish. Grind carefully to keep the balls hardened. My flats are about 12 mm.
I mostly use the flat against the work piece when I need them and protect the moving jaw with a piece of brass.
That way nothing gets dented. Was considering making something to hold the ball to the moving jaw, such as a small magnetic ring mount.
But I have found it easy enough to position the ball where it needs to be for the amount of use I have for it.
Also if using more than one ball, it is important to put some soft deform able aluminum or similar between the moving jaw and the balls.
My vote is on the Al rod method as being most generally useful. I mostly use some soft 4 mm Al gas welding rod that works really well.

Erik


----------



## EmilioG

How did you do the final lapping?  I was also thinking of making bronze or brass cylinders in the same way.
The cylinders would not mar anything and can be supported on parallels. (The cylinders would be used in the vertical position).
I think even the aluminum rod works just fine in most cases.


----------



## Isberg

@Emilio The idea behind lapping them was to eliminate marks on soft materials. Works well.
I first flattened them on the belt sander, then finer wet abrasive cloth on a glass plate and finished on a lapping plate with abrasive. If You don´t have a lapping plate some chrome polish on a piece of paper on a flat plate does the job well enough for something like this.
I actually use the soft sacrificial Al rods for most of my work. That method works really well for me. Mainly used the balls for odd shapes etc. Have tried dowel pins as well, but noticed that the work can still be misaligned depending on which way the pin is oriented. It´s a 1 dimensional solution vs. 2 dimensional one for the ball. Pins or cylinders probably need to be soft enough to work well.

Erik


----------



## EmilioG

The hardened steel bearing balls will leave a small dent in the work piece no matter how well polished, yes?
I've been using soft aluminum wire and brass cylinders, and it works quite well. Not sure I need the ground flat bearing balls,
but will probably make a few just to see the difference.  The ultimate test would be to use an indicator on each type of anti roll method.
 Thanks Erik.


----------



## Isberg

Try using the flat side of the ball against the work piece and protect the vice jaw against dents with some soft material. My experience is that You can use them that way even on Al without denting, using reasonable clamping force. Turning the ball around spherical end towards work piece will dent most stuff You would care to mill...


----------



## EmilioG

Yes, I understand. I'll try it. Thanks


----------



## ezduzit

Ball bearings are too hard and will likely leave a dent.

Instead, hand grind a semi-spherical or dome shaped end (this can be done quickly and precisely on a lathe) on a largish (~1" dia) brass or aluminum bar and then cutoff to appropriate length. The largish diameter allows room for fingers when placing it in the vise.


----------



## RandyM

Am I the only one that has no idea what this thread is about? I was hoping someone would post a picture by now, cause I am just not getting it.


----------



## Isberg

Hope these pictures show how I use mine. The clamping force of my Aciera hydraulic vice is over 2 metric tons according to the manual and that does not visually dent aluminum surfaces. The ball in the pics has 16 mm flat intended for soft materials. If I ever make new ones, I would use 25 mm (1 inch) balls.


----------



## RandyM

Great! Thank you Isberg.

Now, enlighten me some more. Why use the ball?


----------



## talvare

RandyM said:


> Great! Thank you Isberg.
> 
> Now, enlighten me some more. Why use the ball?



Insures that parts that don't have parallel sides will maintain proper contact with the stationary jaw of the vise.

Ted


----------



## RandyM

talvare said:


> Insures that parts that don't have parallel sides will maintain proper contact with the stationary jaw of the vise.
> 
> Ted



Thanks Ted,

I thought that the movable jaws provided for this? Along with the complimentary persuasion of a hammer upon clamping for proper seating of the part against the stationary jaw and parallel. Also, if it was needed wouldn't this be a standard practice? Sorry, I am not seeing the need for the added complexity. But hey, it is just me.


----------



## EmilioG

I would indicate the part to check how well it stays fixed.  This problem is another reason why I would like to buy a precision screwless vise.
A larger one, not the tiny 2" vises but something like a Wilton. Fairly expensive but you're paying for precision. Also, take a look at the Quadralel device.
Very interesting design for larger work.  The other tool on my wish list is a vintage Murkens cylindrical square to check the work, tools and machines.

RandyM's concern is valid. Sometimes a dead blow and/or a piece of aluminum wire is all that is required.


----------



## talvare

Randy,
Any "quality" vise should maintain parallelism of the movable and stationary jaws. In other words, the movable jaw should not deflect at all. Also, it kind of is "standard practice" to use some method such as this when clamping irregular parts in the milling vise. Some folks use things like a piece of copper wire or brass rod against the movable jaw to accomplish the same thing.

Ted


----------



## Isberg

@RandyM  I´ll try to explain my understanding of how it works in the pictured setup, please excuse me if I state some obvious facts trying to rationalize this:

The ball allows You to easily find the best spot for pushing the work piece well against the fixed jaw, which is my reference. It also helps clamping tapered and uneven stuff more securely by taking upp angular errors. For really rough stuff I still prefer the old Al-wire method or Al scrap instead of flattened balls.

Indicate the back jaw and the bottom of the vice for reference as usual. If I clamp something non square in the vice now it can be square either against the front or back jaw but not both at the same time. Assuming the vice jaws stay parallell. The ball will then make it possible for the work piece to freely to rotate against the movable jaw. Therefor the work piece will be referenced to the plane of the back jaw only. The polished flat on the balls makes it possible to clamp hard without denting stuff. Especially useful for Al and soft stuff.
I usually tighten the vice a little and then nock down the work piece with a plumbob against the bottom parallell under the fixed jaw. When the vice is tightened the work piece should be quite parallell to both the bottom of the vice and to the fixed jaw. If the bottom and back of the work piece are already at right angles, use 2 parallells. If the back and front of the work piece are already parallell, don´t use the ball, just use the vice jaws.

Hope this makes any sense at all...    Erik


----------



## mikey

RandyM said:


> Thanks Ted,
> 
> I thought that the movable jaws provided for this? Along with the complimentary persuasion of a hammer upon clamping for proper seating of the part against the stationary jaw and parallel. Also, if it was needed wouldn't this be a standard practice? Sorry, I am not seeing the need for the added complexity. But hey, it is just me.



Randy, Ted, please allow me to expand on this for the benefit of the new guys. The ball or round rod is typically used for the initial squaring of a work piece but it can also be used to hold something with off-parallel sides in the vise. It is especially useful for initial squaring though, and the rougher the work piece the more important it is to use it. 

When we square a work piece we are looking to create a master face from which all subsequent sides will be referenced, right? Typically, this is the first face we cut and we then want that first face to be absolutely flat against the fixed jaw of the vise. If the face opposite this reference face is not square it can cause the work to tilt or angle as the vise is tightened and pull that reference face away from the fixed jaw. The ball/rod prevents this by allowing the work to tilt and align the reference face to the fixed jaw while still allowing the vise to clamp down solidly. Normally, we use the ball for the first three passes, after which we will have square sides in contact with the bed of the vise and both jaws. Then we remove the ball/rod and cut the fourth face and ends to finish squaring the work. 

This may not be standard practice for everyone but it is the only way I know of to accurately square a rough work piece in the vise.


----------



## Isberg

For a good video intro to squaring stock I recommend watching 
This Old Tonys You Tube video "Stock? Mill? Square!"
Mikey, I believe the method You describe pretty much is the standard method for squaring stock in the mill, at least its exactly the way I was thought to do it long time ago... 
Erik


----------



## EmilioG

Here ya go, as requested:


----------



## mikey

Isberg said:


> Mikey, I believe the method You describe pretty much is the standard method for squaring stock in the mill, at least its exactly the way I was thought to do it long time ago...
> Erik



It's the only method I know of that actually produces a square part. The ball or rod is important to this process. I'm sure you would have said the same thing if I didn't jump ahead in line, Erik. I learned to do this a long time ago, before there was an internet or Youtube, but it's good that they have videos nowadays.


----------



## Bob Korves

EmilioG said:


> Here ya go, as requested:


That is a good video, Emilio.  Tom is a no nonsense guy.  Lays it out there like a master machinist to an apprentice, and I suppose that is what he is actually doing...


----------



## Bob Korves

For small parts I often use the pull pins left over from aluminum pop rivets.  For larger stuff, un-insulated single strand copper wire or aluminum TIG rod works well.  So far, no need for Screwy Balls, but I have the balls and the surface grinder if I want one or more at some point.


----------



## rdean

When ever I want to clamp a piece of "C" channel or "I" beam in the vice like this one it never stays solid but just squirts out.




So I tried my hand at making a Quadralel device and as simple as possible.



The springs just hold the whole thing together when setting it up in the vice or when not in use in the drawer.  




Used a 1/2" steel ball because that is what I had.  



As you can see I raised the angle piece up off the vice base and about 1/8" above the moveable jaws to see how well it was actually held in the vice.
I then tightened the vice like I normally would for a square piece of stock.  I was impressed as I struck the stock repeatedly from all different angles with a dead blow hammer and could not measure any movement.  
The device worked great for this application but what about for this?




I had to put a block at the far end so that when the vice was tightened the two parts of the Quadralel device don't touch each other. (note gap at front)




It would seem that this setup does not have as much sideways holding ability as the first example but I wouldn't be afraid of doing any milling or drilling operation on the stock.

In my opinion it was well worth the two hours it took to make it and will be quite useful.

Thanks for looking
Ray


----------



## mikey

Awesome, Ray! I need me one of them things - add one more to the list!


----------



## EmilioG

Excellent device. I want one!

I also found this, which is interesting to see>>


----------



## jmarkwolf

EmilioG said:


> Has anyone tried using the ball bearing with the ground flat on it to hold rough saw stock in a vise?
> I just read a machining tip where (it's also in a book), where you take a .750 or 1.00" bearing ball and grind a
> flat on it. I've always used a piece of soft aluminum wire. Other's use wood, cylinders of brass, etc...
> I'd like to try this. Of course, I would use a piece of brass to protect the flat against the vise jaw.



I don't know if it's what you have in mind, but I've seen a couple variations on this theme:


----------



## EmilioG

If you can find a large nut to hold a 3/4" or 1" SS bearing ball.  I imagine nuts in this range are fairly expensive.
Good idea. I've seen it posted here by someone.


----------



## Bob Korves

jmarkwolf said:


> I don't know if it's what you have in mind, but I've seen a couple variations on this theme:
> 
> View attachment 233524


Many of those "solutions" take up way too much lengthwise space in the vise and are fussy to install at the same time as the part.  What we are most often trying to do is compensate for a small amount of out of square or rough condition in the work.  We also want to retain as much friction from the vise jaws to the part as possible, that is how vises work.  That is why something quick and dirty like a piece of aluminum welding rod or soft copper wire works so well.


----------



## jbolt

Bob Korves said:


> ... I have the balls and the surface grinder if I want one or more at some point.


----------



## EmilioG

I agree Bob.  Unless it's a part that really needs the help of a special set up/tool holder a la Quadralels.
I just use soft wire or brass cylinders on 3 points.  If I had a surface grinder, I would probably make those flat bearing balls.
So I use what I have. Seems to work.


----------



## Bob Korves

I don't really like the idea of hard bearing balls or quadrilaterals against hard vise jaws.  The friction there is minimal.  My BP vise has shop made jaws from 1018 steel.  They grip much better than hard jaws, and are still pristine after years of usage.  They are finish machined in place.  If I crash the soft jaws at least I have a chance to save the cutter.  If you crash hard jaws you will ruin both the cutter and the jaw.


----------



## KBeitz

Use a cement bit to drill bearings ...


----------



## C-Bag

There were a series of really simple DIY fixes for the same idea posted by members of another forum, one Toolmaker51 is a member here. The other is Frank S.

Toolmaker51's first fairly simple, the second really cool but not so simple:


----------



## C-Bag

Frank S contributions:


----------



## Mitch Alsup

I keep a few drilling chips around for this purpose. Takes up the irregular surface, cost=0, ...


----------



## Millalot

I have no difficulty in preparing a flat on a ball bearing with a hand grinder, in operation the ball self centralizes.
I have not made cuts on very light structures which could distort under cutting load but have used it mainly to square up blocks it works just great.


----------



## hman

jmarkwolf said:


> I don't know if it's what you have in mind, but I've seen a couple variations on this theme:
> 
> View attachment 233524





EmilioG said:


> If you can find a large nut to hold a 3/4" or 1" SS bearing ball.  I imagine nuts in this range are fairly expensive.  Good idea. I've seen it posted here by someone.





Bob Korves said:


> Many of those "solutions" take up way too much lengthwise space in the vise and are fussy to install at the same time as the part.


I've used a flatted ball (with sandblasted flat surface against the workpiece) and a short length of suitably sized steel pipe (against the vise jaw).  You can cut the chunk of pipe pretty short.  As long as it holds the surface of the ball off the vise jaw, it won't cause a dimple.  I'd suppose you could add a small rare earth magnet inside the pipe to help hold the arrangement together while closing the vise (making it a bit less fussy).  It's not a perfect solution, and Bob does raise a couple more valid points.  But the pipe-and-ball method is also quick and easy, and will accommodate larger part variations than squishable wire will.


----------



## Bob Korves

hman said:


> I've used a flatted ball (with sandblasted flat surface against the workpiece) and a short length of suitably sized steel pipe (against the vise jaw).


Great idea, John!  I like it, and will try it.


----------



## Millalot

hman said:


> I've used a flatted ball (with sandblasted flat surface against the workpiece) and a short length of suitably sized steel pipe (against the vise jaw).  You can cut the chunk of pipe pretty short.  As long as it holds the surface of the ball off the vise jaw, it won't cause a dimple.  I'd suppose you could add a small rare earth magnet inside the pipe to help hold the arrangement together while closing the vise (making it a bit less fussy).  It's not a perfect solution, and Bob does raise a couple more valid points.  But the pipe-and-ball method is also quick and easy, and will accommodate larger part variations than squishable wire will.



My method is in reverse with the flat against the vice jaw, a 1/2" ball with a flat of one third of its diameter. If it puts a small dimple in the work piece it is no big deal, generally in squaring blocks it will be machined out any way.
Main thing it keeps the pressure down the center line of the vice and if the ball is positioned slightly bellow the center height of the jaw it will help to minimize jaw lift.


----------



## ChazzC

Chris at Tigermoth Racing has a video showing his version of a 1" ball with a flat (and a handle):






I tracked down the ball at McMaster (Steel Ball Knob, 1" 6045K56, 3/4" 6045K31). They also have partially threaded studs for handles if you want to save a time (you'll need to chop some of the threaded end like Chris did). I confirmed with both McMaster and the knob manufacturer that the balls are made from 12L14, so milling the flat is easy.

I made mine using the 3/4" Ball Knob to better suit the 3" vise on my mini-mill:







The handle was a 5" long piece of 3/16" unknown steel rod (pretty tough) that I had salvaged from something in the dim past. Reduced the OD to 0.177 3/8" long on one end to create shoulder and threaded to the shoulder. I left the length as-is to make it easier to maneuver in the vise.


Charlie


----------



## aliva

I made a couple of the balls a few back, never used them yet but they are there in case
Mr. Pete made a set of swivel vise jaws that you may find interesting.


----------



## nnam

I used all sorts of scrap to shim things, but never thought a ball bearing would help.  That's interesting and counterintuitive.   It reminds me of the opposite, which sand paper is used in clamping.


----------



## EmilioG

Great ideas here. So many thinkers and problem solvers.
AND, no stupid jokes and insults.
Anyway, I need some ways to hold/clamp small fasteners.
Sometimes I have to repair or cut & clean small bolts.  How are people here holding bolts in general and
on the mill or lathe?  Photos welcome. Thanks


----------



## WobblyHand

I've had mixed results on a lathe, but I use double jammed nuts to hold a screw that I am grinding to length in a belt sander.  (Use vise-grips to hold the back nut.)  I find it takes just moments to get the screw to length that way.  Just grind until you touch the nut.  On a lathe, I often find the screw wants to loosen..


----------



## drrags

I took a GM A/C compressor apart today, because I was bored and I found all these half-balls under the pistons.


----------



## mikey

Ooh, ooh, I have a tool to show you guys. I'll post a new thread instead of hijacking this one.


----------



## ChazzC

aliva said:


> I made a couple of the balls a few back, never used them yet but they are there in case
> Mr. Pete made a set of swivel vise jaws that you may find interesting.



Thanks, Aliva: I watched Mr. Pete's Swivel Clamp videos a while back to see how he made the serrations on the jaws. I have a small Quadrallel that I got last year that works similarly to Mr. Pete's design, but both of these are for parts with flat faces that aren't parallel (the Quadrallel can handle parts with faces that are skewed in two directions) whereas the ball trick will work with just about anything as long as it has one flat face.

As always, Mr. Pete's video does present some great techniques and design details.


Thanks again,


Charlie


----------



## brino

EmilioG said:


> Sometimes I have to repair or cut & clean small bolts. How are people here holding bolts in general and
> on the mill or lathe? Photos welcome. Thanks



On the lathe, I use collets with fasteners. They allow me to grab onto the threads tightly, but without damage.

On the mill, one idea I saw (but have not built yet) was to get a block of aluminum, drill and tap a series of holes down the middle, what ever various sizes you'll need. Then split the block along that centre line (bandsaw or slitting saw). You use the two half blocks in the mill vice like special purpose jaws to grab the threaded sections without damage. Of course you can also consider them as sacrificial jaws and cut right into the aluminum block.

-brino


----------



## C-Bag

EmilioG said:


> Great ideas here. So many thinkers and problem solvers.
> AND, no stupid jokes and insults.
> Anyway, I need some ways to hold/clamp small fasteners.
> Sometimes I have to repair or cut & clean small bolts.  How are people here holding bolts in general and
> on the mill or lathe?  Photos welcome. Thanks


I stole the basic idea of this from Marv Klotz called a lantern vise. His didn’t have the v slot and the little bolt in the v for grabbing small thin bolts. He also used wing nuts where I just use allen heads. Lays flat on my bandsaw and does the job for me as in my messing with 80/20 extrusions I’m always needing custom length small bolts.


----------

