# Doing Jobs for "Friends"



## Robert LaLonde (Feb 6, 2018)

If anybody says, "If its no trouble," or "If its not to much bother," or sounds like they are challenging your abilities in their request... they are manipulating you to get you to work for them for free.  I started replying.  "Sure I can do that.  What's it worth to you?"  For 99% that's the end of the conversation.  They bluster and throw spittle because they were caught and they know it, but the real conversation is over.  A very few say they don't know and they ask what you think its worth.  Of those 1 in 10 is willing to pay.    The real hustlers throw some stupid offer at you like, "I'll buy lunch," if you work for them for hours to perfect their part.

Then there are the true friends.  You want to do something for them because they aren't one of the people listed above.  They have knowledge and  skills or abilities or tools of their own and they will do things for you if you ask.  These are the same people you would call first to get their tractor or their 4x4 if you put your car in a ditch on some country back road at 3 in the morning.  Maybe the same guys who answer the phone when you call with, "What do you need buddy?  Lawyers, guns, or money?"  I recently engraved a bunch of brass placards for one of those friends.  When I put my boat on a sandbar on the river one evening with water falling he was the only one who said, "I will be there as soon as I can with my boat to pull you off."

Now before anybody decides to run down my boating skills.  There are two kinds of experienced boaters on the river here.  Those who have tagged a sandbar and liars.  I'm out of practice now and the sandbars move, but when I was out 3-4 days a week I could run about 25 miles of the river by starlight.  Well most of the time.  LOL.

Back on topic.  There is another side to this.  Sometimes hobbyist machinists are looking for projects to do.  It can be worth it if that's what you enjoy doing.  Accept those freebie jobs from hustlers and freebie hunters just for the fun of the project.  Just understand most of those people will NOT appreciate or reciprocate.  When I started learning to make bait molds I did a lot of jobs for free or very cheap.  I learned a lot, but not one single one of those people has ever EVER paid me my going rate to make a mold since.  In fact one of those people is why I decided not to make cheap/free molds for people anymore.  He basically said (not in those words), "I'll condescend to allow you to make molds for me dirt cheap, but only if I can be sure I'll continue to be able to get you to make molds for me dirt cheap."

Anyway, be aware, but don't allow a-holes to prevent you from doing projects you think will be fun and educational.  Look at the project.  See if it entertains you, and if it doesn't don't do it.  I've found now that I do specialty machining for a living I get plenty of fun and interesting projects in the door anyway from people who are willing to pay for it.  I just had to get good enough first. Take projects you will enjoy.  Turn down projects that you won't.  Maybe even say, "That doesn't sound much like fun.  Its just looks like work," for those projects you don't want to do, or for those people you don't want to work for ~~~ *especially with tricky materials like stainless or titanium.*


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## magicniner (Feb 6, 2018)

I have good friends that I don't charge, they're the same guys that don't need telling "The Rules" for borrowing tools. 
Everyone else, even for "Interesting Projects" gets to pay at least the cash cost to me, there has been some transition between the groups ;-)


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## RandyM (Feb 6, 2018)

I agree completely with you Bob. A real friend will make a fair offer and not pout about it. I too find I have more projects than I can handle in a lifetime and will only accept jobs of friends that are willing to pay. The thing that people seem to forget is the huge investment you have in tools, equipment, and facilities that you bought for your use and enjoyment and not to provide inexpensive or free work for someone else. Now, I do have some very close friends that all this is different, we swap tools, labor, and good times. The thing is we don't abuse it and we respect each other. And sometimes I just feel like doing something for nothing other than the learning experience as you mentioned.


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## SSage (Feb 6, 2018)

I have friends and I have people I casually socialize with. Friends buy material, cover the expenses or trade etc. for small jobs. Associates or acquaintances get charged up front. 

Around here my friends are always helping each other without asking. If it's a fairly big project I'll just get expenses covered, I don't charge actual real friends for profit and they don't charge me either.


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 6, 2018)

My real friends get my services without any thought of compensation 
All other types of “friends” may not get the same proposition


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## epanzella (Feb 6, 2018)

I learned the hard way about "friends". A guy I worked with showed me a broken part for his mower and asked if I could help. I had no problem helping the guy out as I assumed the part was no longer available and it was kinda complicated with holes and shoulders. I carved up a good hunk of aluminum and killed an afternoon because it had to be chucked a number of times.  At the end he thanked me for saving him $15 for a new part??? If I knew you could get the part for $15, I would have come out ahead if I just gave him the money!


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## Ray C (Feb 6, 2018)

Even paying customers are a pain -which is why I only do this as a hobby now.  I'd love to tell you a story about one cheapskate in particular.

Anyhow, I'm 100% in the same boat as Ulma Doctor.  My real friends get my help w/o asking. Everyone else... -not so much.

Ray


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## Billh50 (Feb 6, 2018)

So far I have only done work for my real friends at no cost. And both of them would do anything for me at no cost. One constantly gets me degreasers, rags, Kroil, thread locker. All at no cost.
I have a couple so called friends that occasionally want something done. I usually either tell them it will cost or I am just too busy.


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## Dhector (Feb 6, 2018)

Very true!!!! If every case of beer showed up at the same time that has been "Owed" to me over the years, everyone on this forum could get together for a free beer!!! No more though. That was years ago, and mainly on motorcycles, not machining, but even now more are asking me to do stuff for them(relatively simple stuff) with machining but I'm not going down the free road anymore!!!!


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## RJSakowski (Feb 6, 2018)

I guess that I look at things a little differently.  I generally will take on the little projects that friends and neighbors have.  When they offer to pay me, I tell them "You can't afford to pay what it's worth.  Pay it forward."  If I am doing it for money, it's work and I should be getting paid my going rate. If it's a favor, it's free.  If I have to buy materials, I will make it clear that they will have to pay for them.

If people pay a pittance for your services, in their mind, they have paid and just got a good deal.  An expectation that because they are a friend, they should get a better deal is flawed because if you look at it from the other side, they should be giving you business because you are a friend. If you receove a pittance for your services, it only devalues your work.

One of our neighbors is particularly generous with his tome and services.  He will help other neighbors, often using his business equipment and often get offered a loaf of home baked bread in return. 

He has done a lot of work for us and we make it clear from the get-go that we are hiring him in his professional capacity and expect to pay the going rate.  Over the years, we have given him in excess of $50,000 in business.

When we had  thirteen trees come down around our buildings last summer, he showed up with his chain saw 4WD tractor and logging trailer to help clear the debris.  That was neighbor helping neighbor.  When we rebuilt the basement entrance destroyed by the same storm, we hired him to to do the work at his going rate.  

Keeping a separation between friendship and business is good thing IMO.


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## wrmiller (Feb 6, 2018)

I learned a long time ago that real friends never ask you to do something for free. This doesn't mean that I accept payment for everything I do for folks, but nowadays I will ask for funds to cover the cost of cutters and materials if it ends up being more than I can afford.


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## f350ca (Feb 6, 2018)

A couple of friends own businesses, when I make parts for their commercial equipment they have no problem paying for my services. When they want parts for their toys I won't let them pay and tell them that up front. In return they GIVE me their used equipment and lend me things like diesel powered compressors. I'm afraid I come out ahead.

Greg


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## magicniner (Feb 6, 2018)

My first move if anyone asks me about making or fixing a part is a 5 minute Google search to see if what they need is readily available at a reasonable cost, it's surprising how often the "unobtainable" can be found for sale.


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## chips&more (Feb 6, 2018)

I don’t have any “friends”. So, I don’t have extra work to do. Sometimes I put on sun glasses and use a red cane with white tip. That will stop the other not friends from asking. Sometimes I put a glazed look over my eyes and cross them. That gets rid of the ones that can’t speak English. I never answer my phone, that gets rid of the rest of them. My family comes first and friends that I have had from childhood. Anyone of them can have one of my kidneys…Dave.


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## JimDawson (Feb 6, 2018)

I work for food   The neighbors have a lot of different projects going all of the time.  Sometimes I have to charge them a small amount, other times they BBQ incredible stuff during the summer (and sometimes winter).  Yeah, it's worth it.  And if I need their tractor I just walk over and get it.  Other than that, if I have to work, I charge what the project is worth.  The fun stuff may be worth a bit less


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## Buffalo20 (Feb 6, 2018)

my people factor

people I Like - 3%
people I tolerate - 5%
people I’m ambivalent about - 2%
people I either care nothing for or people I hate - 90%

based on the above chart, I’m very rarely asked to do any machining, auto repair work or am barely acknowledged. It’s taken many years of hard work, to achieve, the level, I’m at now.

My theory is based on the quote from the Andrew Dice Clay movie, The Adventures of Ford Fairlane

“some people play hard to get, I play hard to want”


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## kvt (Feb 6, 2018)

I do not have any real good friends that live anywhere close to me.   And do not even know half of the people that live around me.   Know a few in SA, but no real friends,  Thus about the only ones that ask for anything is the kid and son in law.  A few people not close will go help if requested and some from here that I will help, if asked etc.


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## Silverbullet (Feb 6, 2018)

I have friends when I fix there stuff or need help working on there shore house or mountain cabin . Ya know a lawyer , I'm having some real hard times now ,sure could use a little help doing my needed repairs but he's to busy taking care of his three homes now. My one buddy has moved away that did I try to help. I feel abused and used. So much for all the others I've worked for too. 
The pleading can't work on me now I'm down and seems I'm out. Stick to your true friends they ask to help when you need it.


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## jwmay (Feb 6, 2018)

Well. I’m pretty terrible at this hobby, so nobody really asks for anything from me. But to play devils advocate, I think it’s fair to point out that people who aren’t into machining don’t really know what it takes to do any job. And then if someone they know is doing it as a hobby...that DOES imply that the person doing the hobby derives some sort of pleasure from it. It doesn’t seem a very large request to ask someone who likes to do something, to do it for you. It seems a win-win to a non-hobbyist I’d imagine. 

As an example, I have an uncle who makes arrowheads. Flint knapping is the term I believe.  It’s not an easy skill to master.  I don’t feel I’m being a user to ask that he make me an arrowhead.  Granted, there are no tolerances, and he could just as easily pull one out of his rejects and give to me, to my pure delight. But I don’t think every person who asks for free help is doing it because they want to use you.


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## brino (Feb 6, 2018)

I kinda have a sliding scale too....but based on a few things:
1) the relationship,
2) how interesting the project looks,
3) what they can afford

But no one of the above totally rules the others. 
For example, I would NOT take on a job for a un-thankful jerk, even if the job is interesting just because the guy is broke.

I will gladly help the neighbours that I know are working hard themselves, but just need a little help....even for free.

I always find that my good friends are willing to pay a good price for good work.
I usually consider that "shop income" as spendable directly on new tools.

-brino


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## Boswell (Feb 6, 2018)

well just cuz someone asks me does not mean I have to say yes.  I have no problem with friends asking for me to make something and sometimes I say yes and sometimes I say no. My answer is based on what I want, practice, experience, to help a friend, not too much on what they want. I am also not afraid to spell out a trade. For instance, I let a friend use my CNC mill to make a part he sells. He uses the shop for a few hours every month and in return he does a cleaning pass on the shop each time.


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## Redmech (Feb 6, 2018)

To the first post. My immediate neighbor pours and injects soft baits, he has piles of CNC milled aluminum molds, just interesting to hear someone that makes them here. I can’t tell you off the top of my head who makes them for him, but it’s done on a cnc mill. Small world, wouldn’t think there are a lot of people who make them.


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## Asm109 (Feb 6, 2018)

A friend recently asked if I could repair the foot on the tongue jack of his boat trailer.
I said sure.  He said how much.  I said I like single malt scotch.
When he picked the jack up, he brought me a really nice bottle of single malt. Better than I buy for myself.
You can never have too many friends like that.


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## Hozzie (Feb 6, 2018)

Buffalo20 said:


> my people factor
> 
> people I Like - 3%
> people I tolerate - 5%
> ...


I am stealing this.  Perfectly sums up my stance.  Bravo.


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 6, 2018)

i don't ever feel right with the idea of asking someone, much less a friend, 
to do work for me without feeling indebted to reciprocate in an equal or greater return.


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## Bamban (Feb 6, 2018)

A friend came over to chamber a 14 barrel for him, told him he had to stay the whole time since I am not FFL, just a hobbyist, and not even in business. We'll something got screwed up, somehow I managed to overshoot the headspace, since the OD had been contoured and threaded by barrel maker, there is no way to salvage the barrel for him (I did later on turned off one thread and chased the chamber, being 10 tpi, the whole thing end up 0.1 shorter. Gave it to another friend and it is shooting real well) 

Doing this guy a favor cost me $400 replacement and my labor to chamber it. It was understood that I will chamber his original barrel for free. Son of a gun did not even buy me a burger.


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## FOMOGO (Feb 7, 2018)

There is some truth to that old saw "no good deed goes unpunished". I've none a lot of favors for people over the years, as it seems to be my nature, but I'm getting better at saying no. I rarely ask anyone to do anything for me, as I'm generally not comfortable doing so, and would rather gain the skill, and tools to do it myself, or just pay a fair price for a professionals time. Mike


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## core-oil (Feb 7, 2018)

Well Guys, Readiing your posts gives me some comfort in the fact that across the pond from me , you folks have the same selfish, greedy scumbags as we have as well!  sorry if I sound a bit bitter, but over the past three years I have been taken as an absolute sucker, both my wife and I had been too busy being kind to see we were being used , I do now tend to feel totally saddened, and anyone else coming along to ask for our charitable giving will be treated with a greater degree of caution,  Scripture teaches us "It is more blessed to give than to receive" Fine words, But wouldn't it be lovely if a lot of people returned in kind?
Many years back when I first purchased a much heavier lathe a guy who lived near me asked for a favour, Well I was young and gullible, turning out various components was fun, Over a couple of years I was wondering if I had a part time job? Anything in return, over the years, ? Zero, Zilch !, Things caused the alarm bell to ring in my one solitary brain cell one day, when he showed me a couple of components, Which I said I could make no problem, Our man says, "O no those components will have to be professionally manufactured" What,  Well he had them professionally made, What a damned mess they were, I would not have put my name to such a job,  To add insult to injury our man said to one of my relations , I am lucky to know your relation he does a great job , well the cash cow suddenly dried up.

The same rule frequently applies to the chareacter whose back is up against the wall,   After you have pulled them out of the mire, it is amazing how quickly they forget the favour , Usually that scenario applies after one has frozen the rear end of ones self in a cold workshop till after two o clock in the morning, I have saddly had that experience a couple of times Even with an employer I had , where i took a component home to complete , as their rubbish machines would not be up to the job, half an hour late in the morning and all hell broke loose, no gratitude shown , Well after that all co-operation ceased, even at work, It was amazing how the rest of the team did not manage to do any of my fine work .

However, all is not gloom and doom, I am lucky to have a group of like minded guys around me , where it is a case of mutual self help, and a couple of other guys who at least give one a bottle of "Stomach Lubrication Oil"  It is nice to be nice.


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## magicniner (Feb 7, 2018)

FOMOGO said:


> There is some truth to that old saw "no good deed goes unpunished".



There's another which states "You're only as good as your last cock-up" ;-) 
Working on expensive parts for fun and/or profit is a "learning and growing experience"


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## Tozguy (Feb 7, 2018)

A friend will help you move.
A good friend will help you move a body.


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## magicniner (Feb 7, 2018)

My favourites are the ones who tell you they want a "Simple Part" made, and when confronted with the time and number of operations to make it counter with _"*[Insert Equipment Manufacturer Here]* sell them for a fiver"_, the conversation then usually progresses along the following lines 

*Me* _ "Well buy one from them, it'll take me ages and multiple set-ups to make that"_ 
*Them* _"I can't, they don't have them any more and tell me they're obsolete"_
*Me* _"You can still get them made for a fiver"_
*Them* _"How?" _
*Me* _"Same way *[Insert Equipment Manufacturer Here]* did" _
*Them* _"How is that"_ 
*Me * _"Pay for the production line to be set up and run for a minimum of 100000 units and you'll get them for a fiver each" _

If the penny doesn't drop at that point run away, they're too busy concentrating on breathing in and breathing out in the right order! 

People who don't make things, don't know how they are made and who aren't naturally deep thinkers will automatically assume that anything they cannot currently do "Can't be that hard", I find that another useful phrase for the toolbox when asked to make a Simple Part is "Since it's simple tell me exactly how you would make it."


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## Whyemier (Feb 7, 2018)

I have not done too many projects for friends.  The ones I have done are for people I would help just because they are who they are. The truth is most don't know I have a machine shop in the shed.  If they do know they don't understand what a machine shop is.

There have been one or two who after I agree to do the job for them actually said don't bother when they realize the time it will take or materials involved (which I would have provided). They actually don't want to cause me the trouble and waste my time, not realizing this is a hobby I enjoy doing...especially when I feel like I'm helping someone.

So I've not had a negative experience.


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## brino (Feb 7, 2018)

Whyemier said:


> If they do know they don't understand what a machine shop is.



Once, when I told a friend that I had a milling machine he said "You make your own flour?"
-brino


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 7, 2018)

I must be living in a parallel universe. I have never done work for friends that they didn't expect to pay. Most of the time I don't accept the money. Some jobs are easy, some complicated. Maybe that's  some don't have friends, they don't treat them as friends.


"Billy G"


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## Dranreb (Feb 7, 2018)

We call them 'ask holes'....


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## Ironside (Feb 7, 2018)

I think that sometimes people tend to overcomplicate what a true friend really is. If you're being totally honest with yourself, you really have very few. To simplify things, if you are approached with a proposal to do a job, and you even have to stop for a second to consider doing it or not, that isn't a friend. The "back and forth" between "real" friends is automatic and unconditional.


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## wrmiller (Feb 7, 2018)

Asm109 said:


> A friend recently asked if I could repair the foot on the tongue jack of his boat trailer.
> I said sure.  He said how much.  I said I like single malt scotch.
> When he picked the jack up, he brought me a really nice bottle of single malt. Better than I buy for myself.
> You can never have too many friends like that.



Now that's a pretty good friend.


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## wrmiller (Feb 7, 2018)

Tozguy said:


> A friend will help you move.
> A good friend will help you move a body.



And a best friend will just take care of the situation for you. 

Haven't had a Best Friend in almost 40 years now. They're getting hard to come by.


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 7, 2018)

True Friend by my definition is the one who is coming in while the rest are leaving.

 "Billy G"


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## Ken from ontario (Feb 7, 2018)

I'm sure we all agree that it feels good to help those who ask for it but it equally feels horrible when you find out you've been taken advantage of.

I always hope the people who ask for my help have enough common sense to know where the limits are and do not rely on me to  let them know they have crossed the line and have now become an opportunistic pain in the rear end, but unfortunately some  view your willingness to help  as a sign  that says "hey come on in and take as much as you want, I'm a chump and I won't complain" type of thing. 

My latest case is the neighbor that I have had for the past 5 years, At first he  seemed like a stand up guy when I first move in the new neighbourhood , he has a cottage next to my house that is in a constant need of small repairs, the first 3 years I never stopped helping him with the repairs and even used my own material/parts(as well as my time) for the fixes, he offered  to cook  a few steaks and ribs for me   to return the favors but I'm not a big meat eater and kept saying no to those offers.

This continued  until recently when I noticed he actually looks for new projects not only around his own house but also his relatives/friends/coworkers  house ,to bring to the cottage to keep himself ( and of course me) busy, the way he viewed it in his own word " to have a positive and productive weekend at the cottage" so it is needless to say I felt so abused like I had a big  SUCKER  written on my forehead, to him the there was no limit in my help and I hated the fact that I had to be the one to put a stop to all that.

I know one thing though, he'll never severe this relationship with me because he's that type of person who thinks if he stops talking to me he'll never get anything out of me so nowadays he does not ask for big repairs anymore but stay civil for smaller favors like if he could park his car on my freshly plowed front yard in winter or have access to my water well in summer.I'm just glad he finally got the message.

I don't want to sound like I have a big heart and kindness oozes out of me but I never stopped  giving a hand to others in the neighborhood if/ when they asked just because of the bad experience I had with the man next door but now I am a bit more cautious on how I offer my help , I give a little and wait for their reaction before I offer more.


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## blue_luke (Feb 7, 2018)

That subject was interesting reading during my lunch brake!
Ahhhh the 'friends' !
In another life, I used to be a pro musician. I composed and produced music for films, adverts etc..
Studio time in those days was so expensive that I ended up building my own...
Then came a lot of 'friends' and 'tradders'...  " I need a demo of that tune can you help me record it, in exchange I'll play (name an instrument) on your next project."
How many times did I fell in this trap
If you think machining and tools is expensive, get into professional audio!!
Anyway, I guess you all get the idea, I ended closing my studio for business and kept it only for my own projects, where I hired and paid at union rate the musicians and at the end, I found that this  was a less expensive and more efficient way to get things done.
The 'tradders' were always busy playing somewhere else, on tour or whatever reason they were never available when I needed them.

Luc


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## rgray (Feb 7, 2018)

The funny one is "do I owe you anything?" as compared to "what do I owe you?"
What they are saying is they are nice enough to ask the question but letting you know they don't feel they owe anything.


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## Surprman (Feb 7, 2018)

I'll do stuff for people I know for the opportunity to get some experience.  I'll also charge them sometimes if it seems like a lot of work.  It is probably way less than they would pay someone doing it to make a living, but I'll use the proceeds to buy new equipment, so I am happy.  I just did some work for a colleague at work and in return he will be giving me a couple bottles of homemade hard cider (which is awesome and strong!)

Rick


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## HBilly1022 (Feb 7, 2018)

brino said:


> Once, when I told a friend that I had a milling machine he said "You make your own flour?"
> -brino



Hope you said YES! That way he won't be asking you to _mill _anything for him.


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