# Hello from Hudson Valley, what steel to use...



## PGregory (Aug 9, 2017)

Hi From the Mid Hudson Valley of NY State.
I have an entry level question about what steel to use for making tool holders for a tailstock turret.
I'm looking at this as a first project with steel.
The turret receiver is 3/4" straight.
There are many videos and other sources of info about the differences in available steel stock, but not at the level of saying "for your first projects stick to XYZ." Possible choices from what I've learned so far seem to be W1 and C1018.
Of course, the application is most important when choosing the steel - right material for the job.
I have to drill a bunch of aluminum standoffs in the lathe and want to set the turret up to simplify the process of drilling and tapping the standoff ends.

Cheers - Peter


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## rgray (Aug 9, 2017)

I made mine from 1144 stressproof tgp (turned ground & polished). You can buy it that way and then not have to machine the outer diameter. It also machines nice. It's not hardenable though.
If you need hard there is o-1 and 4130 or 4140 that can also be purchased tgp. these also in my opinion machine better than w-1 or 1018.


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## Bob Korves (Aug 9, 2017)

The above advice is good, and good steels for the job, the C1018 less so, but you asked for the best steel for your first project, and for that I would recommend 12L14, which is very easy to machine and won't work harden on you.  It is not weldable, which is probably not an issue with this project.  It is also not able to be hardened, like the other steels listed above, except the C1018.  Wear will be a long term issue if the parts are not hardened.  In a hobby shop, that is far less of a problem.  Use an easy to machine steel and you will enjoy the process a lot more as a newbie.


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## PGregory (Aug 9, 2017)

Thank you Bob and RGray - I am getting some 1144 and 12l14 to try out and I will post pics of the project as I go along. Nothing spellbinding, Im sure, but perils and outcomes will be new to me.


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## Cobra (Aug 9, 2017)

The other alloy steel that is easy to machine is 41L40.


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## Charles Spencer (Aug 9, 2017)

I made my turret bushings from 1040CR.  They work for me.


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## markba633csi (Aug 9, 2017)

1144 stressproof and 12L14 leaded are both good.  The stressproof is a little harder to machine but harder steel. Both about the same price I think.
Mark S.


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## Eddyde (Aug 9, 2017)

While those steels mentioned above might be the best choices, I think W-1 or O-1 drill rod would be perfectly adequate for the application. 
BTW, Welcome to the forum!


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## PGregory (Aug 9, 2017)

Well, I think this project may be a good non-critical one to try a few more of these materials. I have 2 x6 turret tailstocks, one of which I am going to refurb and put up for sale, again. And, more holders will be needed over time. Thanks for all the info and I am glad to be here in the forums.
Here are seller's pics of the first and second tailstock I just picked up. The second was photo'ed assembled backwards by the seller, but it was more complete than the first one I got. Both are mechanically good.


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## chips&more (Aug 9, 2017)

Someone above said 1144 is not hardenable. That statement is not true/correct. It’s commonly called 1144 stressproof and is about Rc17 hardness. When heat treated the stressproof properties will be lost but you can achieve about Rc53 hardness. For reference, I have just heat treated ½” round 1144 and noticed a 0.002” increase in part diameter. So, be aware, this stuff can grow after heat treat.…Dave


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## mikey (Aug 9, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> 1144 stressproof and 12L14 leaded are both good.  The stressproof is a little harder to machine but harder steel. Both about the same price I think.
> Mark S.



As far as I know, 1144 is not a leaded steel; 12L14 is, though. 

1215 is the non-leaded equivalent of 12L14 and turns pretty nicely. 

I agree, both are good steels for this project. I don't think you need to heat treat these tool holders for hobby shop use and either will work well. 12L14 is far easier to work with but will rust fast so keep the holders oiled when not in use. 1144 stressproof is harder and will resist wear longer; it is good because it comes semi-hard, resists warping when machined or heated and gives a nice satin finish with a sharp tool. 

For a first steel project, I vote for 12L14.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Aug 9, 2017)

Make them from whatever steel you have laying around.


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## Bob Korves (Aug 9, 2017)

PGregory said:


> Thank you Bob and RGray - I am getting some 1144 and 12l14 to try out and I will post pics of the project as I go along. Nothing spellbinding, Im sure, but perils and outcomes will be new to me.


1144 machines very nicely, as does 4130 and 4140.  All is good until you let your cutting tools rub, which will cause the steel to work harden, and then the job will get a lot more difficult.  With those steels and other higher carbon steels, keep the tool cutting freely the entire time it is in contact with the work.  Shallow finish cuts can also be difficult with those steels, for the same reason.


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## rgray (Aug 9, 2017)

chips&more said:


> Someone above said 1144 is not hardenable.



Streesproof info from Lasalle steel who developed it.:
http://www.niagaralasalle.com/product-stressproof.html

Can be induction hardened, but watch for quench cracks. The increase in diameter makes sense.
I just make it a rule not to try hardening it. As I've had others have no luck with it.
I just grab o-1 or 4130/4140 if I want hard things.


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## PGregory (Aug 9, 2017)

I am starting out and I don't have a handy local source of surplus at good prices, or free. Yet(!) But, I now have some 1144 and 12l14 on the way to start with. I think this is a good project to learn some of the handling properties of the others, too...


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## Silverbullet (Aug 9, 2017)

For the cost difference , after your first set make another with drill rod . It's harder but you can buy the od  you need , I try to look at the time spent as money wasted or made. Just a thought.


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## chips&more (Aug 10, 2017)

rgray said:


> Streesproof info from Lasalle steel who developed it.:
> http://www.niagaralasalle.com/product-stressproof.html
> 
> Can be induction hardened, but watch for quench cracks. The increase in diameter makes sense.
> ...


Yes, and the link says nothing about it cannot be hardened. Induction heating is just one process of heating the metal to critical temperature. Most of my heat treating is done with a Mapp gas torch. 1144 steel has 44% carbon in it. I have no problem in hardening it and have done so for many decades. Also, the internet has lots of the same info. Just remember, that if you do heat treat 1144, all of its stressproof properties will be lost. Good luck with the Hobby…Dave.


PS. Induction heaters are very reasonable now from China. And like, if I don’t have enough on my plate. This toolaholic is seriously thinking of adding an induction heater to my toy shop. Good for heat treating, brazing, loosening rusted nuts...


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## rgray (Aug 10, 2017)

chips&more said:


> PS. Induction heaters are very reasonable now from China



We're getting off topic but the induction hardening intrigues me. I find induction melting furnaces. Is this what you would use?
Or would one just use an induction heating element and pass the item though and then quench?
Found some on aliexpress and was gonna link a couple of pages but they are huge and take up a whole page themselves.

P.S. you missed a decimal 1144 carbon content .4 to .44%  I know you knew that, just put it out there for others who might be following  https://midwestmetalwarehouse.com/carbon-steel/1144-stressproof.html


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## Bob Korves (Aug 10, 2017)

rgray said:


> Found some on aliexpress and was gonna link a couple of pages but they are huge and take up a whole page themselves.


Even more off topic, but it is easy to make long URL's short:
http://tinyurl.com/


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## chips&more (Aug 10, 2017)

Just search fleabay with “induction heater”. For under 100 bucks you could easily have a new toy in your shop with a very powerful capability!


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## markba633csi (Aug 10, 2017)

There's lots of steel all around. Just have to learn how to take apart things quickly when no one is looking 
also being able to run fast is helpful.
M


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## Cobra (Aug 10, 2017)

*From good old Wikipedia:

Induction hardening* is a form of heat treatment in which a metal part is heated by induction heating and then quenched. The quenched metal undergoes a martensitic transformation, increasing the hardness and brittleness of the part. Induction hardening is used to selectively harden areas of a part or assembly without affecting the properties of the part as a whole.[1]

The interesting bit to me is that you could spot harden if you needed.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Aug 11, 2017)

You are making bushings for a tail stock turret to be used in a small lathe in a hobbyist setting making threaded stand offs, a discussion of material selection and hardening is way overkill. If made from plain old 1018 available at Home Depot you will not live long enough to wear them out even if you are 20 years old now.

Last week on a Warner & Swasey turret lathe of WW2 vintage, 1 5/8" drill through 3 1/8 long steel  parts in one shot, no peck and no pilot hole in less then 6 minutes each. Not a single one of the turret adapters is hardened either straight or tapered (several dozen).
Draw you own conclusions.

Sorry about the knee shot, I do not spend my days editing How To videos nor have the equipment and software to do so.


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## benmychree (Aug 11, 2017)

Turret lathe doing what turret lathes do best! I had a #4 Warner Swasey in my shop when I sold it and retired, and used it for a variety of limited production work.  I particularly like spade drills for doing that sort of drilling, they break up the chips, and are NEVER used with pilot holes, perhaps just a spotting drill to start them.


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## markba633csi (Aug 11, 2017)

I like that picture! Rather artistic
M


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## 4GSR (Aug 11, 2017)

For any steel or cast iron to respond to heat treat, it must have an carbon equivalency of at least 2.  This number is derived from the carbon content in association with the Manganese content in the material.  Any steel can be harden if this number was met.  Of course, other chemicals added like copper, high contents of Nickel and so on, make it so , it will not respond to HT.  When you do that, it reclassifies the steel into different categories of metals.  

A place I worked at several years ago, we used to take 1020 castings and carbon restore into the surface of the steel.  So when the parts were set up on the induction hardening machine, the surface was heated up and polymer quenched to give us a hardness of about 50-55 HRC.   It would have been much cheaper to carburize the parts at the same time they were carbon restored.  It was a political decision that came from upper management, our hands were tied!


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## benmychree (Aug 11, 2017)

4gsr said:


> For any steel or cast iron to respond to heat treat, it must have an carbon equivalency of at least 2.  This number is derived from the carbon content in association with the Manganese content in the material.  Any steel can be harden if this number was met.  Of course, other chemicals added like copper, high contents of Nickel and so on, make it so , it will not respond to HT.  When you do that, it reclassifies the steel into different categories of metals.
> 
> A place I worked at several years ago, we used to take 1020 castings and carbon restore into the surface of the steel.  So when the parts were set up on the induction hardening machine, the surface was heated up and polymer quenched to give us a hardness of about 50-55 HRC.   It would have been much cheaper to carburize the parts at the same time they were carbon restored.  It was a political decision that came from upper management, our hands were tied!


I am not familiar with the "carbon restoration" process,  please explain.


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## PGregory (Aug 11, 2017)

Glad to have all the info, gents. As a note, I will be on vacation for the next week, away from the lathe, but then should have a clear week to work on the tool holders.

Best - Peter G.


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## Rick Berk (Aug 12, 2017)

With out question, I would use 4140 PH, (pre-hard) this is about 30-35 Rc hard on the OD and softer on the inner area. The PH will give an excellent turned finish for .750 and the center can be drilled and reamed to the desired diameter.


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## 4GSR (Aug 12, 2017)

Rick Berk said:


> With out question, I would use 4140 PH, (pre-hard) this is about 30-35 Rc hard on the OD and softer on the inner area. The PH will give an excellent turned finish for .750 and the center can be drilled and reamed to the desired diameter.


I like to add a little to this.  What people call 4140 pre-hard is really 4140 Q & T (Quenched & Tempered) to 28-36 HRC.  And in rounds up to 3" in diameter, it's fairly consistent hardness to the center of the bar, not just the outer area of a bar.  And really, the higher heat treated material in my opinion cuts much nicer.  It's tough drilling, but with good cutting oils/fluids, it's no different than cutting 1018/1020 material dry.


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## 4GSR (Aug 12, 2017)

benmychree said:


> I am not familiar with the "carbon restoration" process,  please explain.


I need to clarify what I said a bit.  We would specify 1050 material, not 1020 as I said earlier.  The problem with the higher content carbon material is, when the casting is poured and starts to cool, it looses surface carbon in the casting.  And for the product we used it for, we had to have the surface carbon so it would respond to heat treat using induction heat and quench.  Without the carbon restoration, there would be a depth of about .01-.02" on the casting that would not respond to heat treatment because of the diffusion of the carbon loss in the cooling process of the casting.   So what the casting house would do was put it into a carbon atmosphere, the same one as used for carburizing, but no quench.  Once the carbon restoration was done, the temperature in the furnace would be brought down gradually until it got to a safe level then the parts were removed from the furnace an air cooled.  It worked 95% of the time.  Years pasted, new company owners tool over, this was thrown out the window and went to the simpler process of standard carburizing 1020 castings.  Dropped our processing cost by almost half!


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## Wreck™Wreck (Aug 12, 2017)

4gsr said:


> I like to add a little to this.  What people call 4140 pre-hard is really 4140 Q & T (Quenched & Tempered) to 28-36 HRC.  And in rounds up to 3" in diameter, it's fairly consistent hardness to the center of the bar, not just the outer area of a bar.  And really, the higher heat treated material in my opinion cuts much nicer.  It's tough drilling, but with good cutting oils/fluids, it's no different than cutting 1018/1020 material dry.


Todays job was shoulder bolts, 1 1/8" 4140 hex at 35 -40 RC. 1.000" +.000 - .002 on the shoulder (finish turn after hardening), 3/4-16 thread. I left the shoulder .020" big for finish hard turning after they are cased to 55-60 RC on Monday. The Boss did not want to grind them otherwise I would have left .002 per side for grinding. This material turns fairly well at 35-40 hardness., I suspect that the relief at the end of the thread was not long enough and ripped the corner off of the first threading tool yet it measured in with the ring gauges, I made the undercut longer and had no problems with the rest of the parts.


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## Keith A (Aug 14, 2017)

PGregory said:


> Thank you Bob and RGray - I am getting some 1144 and 12l14 to try out and I will post pics of the project as I go along. Nothing spellbinding, Im sure, but perils and outcomes will be new to me.


PGregory,

I am south of you in Cold Spring.  Please tell me where you purchase or purchased your steel.

Thanks


PGregory said:


> Thank you Bob and RGray - I am getting some 1144 and 12l14 to try out and I will post pics of the project as I go along. Nothing spellbinding, Im sure, but perils and outcomes will be new to me.


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## PGregory (Dec 22, 2017)

Sorry for the delay, I haven't kept up with email notifications.
So far, I am just buying metal on ebay.
Sometimes from dealers, sometimes scrap/remnants.
There is Dutchess Metal Supply in Poughkeepsie but that is full-cost for small quantities.
I don't know of any surplus / junk dealers, yet, but I am sure their are some around.
Hope this helps...
Peter


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