# 10" Atlas Countershaft Question



## Weldo (May 17, 2020)

Howdy gents!  For a long time I've been using my Atlas lathe on the low range only.  The reason is that years ago when I restored this machine I tried high range and it had a vibration.  That, and since I was new to running a lathe the high speed made me a little bit nervous...

Well now I want to take advantage of all the speeds this lathe can offer.  I tried high range just today and the vibration I remember is not as bad as I remember.  On the highest speed there's a very slight shake but I don't think it would cause a problem.  So my first question is what should I check to track down a high speed vibration?  I'd like the machine to run silky smooth on the highest speed if possible.

Next question, what's the factory solution for lubricating the jack shaft?  Or is it called a counter shaft?

I've been pumping some grease (Lucas X-tra Heavy Duty) into the fittings on occasion but when running in high range the grease flings out in small droplets.  You can see the grease on the wall behind the machine.  Of course some of it also flings forward onto the operator.





I seem to remember something about felts to seal the shaft collars.  Does anyone have a factory spec on those felts or perhaps a place to get reproduction parts?  When I restored the lathe I don't remember if it had felts there or not.

Here's a few more shots of the bearings.






Thanks for reading!


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## Ulma Doctor (May 17, 2020)

the original lubrication for the lathe was oil
grease will work, but may attract and trap unwanted particulates.
if i'm not mistaken the felt is on the carriage wipers, i don't think they had wipers on the drive and driven shafts


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## Nutfarmer (May 18, 2020)

Would not worry about throwing a little grease. It just shows that there is lub when it's a plain bearing. That normal . If it was a sealed bearing like a ball bearing it would mean it was over greased and the seal was blown out.


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## Weldo (May 18, 2020)

Here's a few old pictures from the rebuild.

It appears to be grease on the bearings when they were disassembled.  Also would not the grease fittings indicate the use of a grease gun for lubrication?








Does anyone foresee a problem with trying to seal the collars to the cast bearing holder?  Maybe with a felt ring on either side or perhaps a large O-ring?


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## pdentrem (May 18, 2020)

I made a couple bent tin shields that were held in place with a magnet. It would stop the lube from reaching the wall or me! They were just u shaped. I will see if I have a picture showing them. If you look closely on the counter shaft you can see the right hand tin shield I made up.


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## Weldo (May 18, 2020)

Oh!  That's a good idea!


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## Weldo (May 18, 2020)

Just found these on ebay!  Ordered a set.  

The listing says that  SAE20 oil is recommended for these bearings.  I just assumed since they had grease fitting that grease should be used.  There's not any problem using grease in place of oil is there?  I suppose that I can clean out the grease when I install the new felt washers, but can you use a grease fitting for oil?  Is there a special gun for that?


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## pdentrem (May 18, 2020)

My lathe had grease cups on the 2 ends of the countershaft and even once and a while, I would give each a single turn to force more grease into the bearings. Maybe others used oil unlike my antique.
Pierre


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## wa5cab (May 18, 2020)

First, the Xerk (grease) fittings are not original.  As Pierre said, the countershaft spindle on both vertical and horizontal countershafts originally came with a grease cup screwed into each end.  The holes in the end continued into the spindle from each end and the spindle was cross-drilled in about the center of the bearings.  If yours isn't then it isn't original.  However, the only thing wrong with having Xerk fittings instead of grease cups is that you are probably putting in too much grease each time.

Second, you need to order from Clausing four of part # 9-111 and install one at each end of each bearing to limit grease slinging.  And use less grease.

SAE-20 has never been in the lube chart for the Atlas 10" countershaft spindle bearings.  It is used on the Craftsman 12" which has Oilite Bushings instead of straight roller bearings.


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## Weldo (May 18, 2020)

I'm unfamiliar with what a grease cup is.  @pdentrem mentioned something about turning them to force grease into the bearings?  So a grease cup is like some kind of mini screw press?

And if I understand the explanation offered by @wa5cab, the counter shaft is drilled axially to a certain depth, probably just a little bit past the center of where the bearing rides on the shaft.  At that location the shaft is also drilled radially.  You would then pack the grease cup by hand and then the grease cup is turned which forces grease through the axial hole until it comes out the radial hole and into the bearing rollers.

So grease is the correct lube for these roller bearings?  I don't have a lube chart but it seems like even with the felt washers liquid oil would just seep out.

As far as how much grease, isn't it usually recommended to pump in grease until you see it just start to seep out of the joint?  That's how I do the U-joints on my truck.  I've heard some say that you should pump in new grease until you see that new grease forced out of the joint, the idea being that you should try to displace the old grease with new.

Thanks for the help so far!


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## pdentrem (May 18, 2020)

Yes there is a threaded section that the grease cup screws onto. With a near full cup, one screws it on the threads and one gives a turn once in a while. When the cup bottoms out, remove the cup refill with grease and reinstall. Very simple and easy way to lube over a long period of time. A google search for ”grease cup countershaft atlas lathe” shows many photos etc.
Pierre


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## Weldo (May 18, 2020)

Thanks!  Then I guess the temptation when using a grease fitting and gun is to pump in a lot more grease than you would by just turning the grease cup.


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## Weldo (May 18, 2020)

Found this!



			http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/51/6212.pdf
		


This is a scan of an old lubrication chart!  It will help a lot!  

They seem to recommend SAE 10 motor oil for almost everything.  I've been using SAE 30 for a long time with no ill effects.  How about anyone else.  What are you guys using for general lubing of bearings, gears and screws?


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## pdentrem (May 18, 2020)

I had SAE 20 available, so that is what I used. 
Pierre


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## wa5cab (May 19, 2020)

To take the last question first, Atlas changed the recommendation sometime in the 50's (retroactive) to SAE 20 ND.  Although it didn't specifically say ND at the time.  HD (for High Detergent) didn't start showing up for use in cars & trucks until later.  

SAE 20 is approximately equivalent to ISO 68.  

There are several reasons for not using HD.  One is that the purpose of one or some of the detergents is to scavenge moisture from the air trapped within the newer engines after the mid to late 60's.  As machine tools aren't sealed and should never get hot enough to boil off the accumulated moisture, this detergent is actually detrimental.  The others are that none of the other detergents have any beneficial effects and quite often the oil costs more.

Back to the grease, the practice of pumping new grease into a joint until it starts to come out the seals or wherever is another mostly automotive practice based on the fact that greasing is only done every few thousand miles and that in operation, dirt and water that might get into the joint is mostly pumped out by the practice.  On machine tools, hopefully they won't ever be submerged in water and mud so only a little fresh grease is supplied each day or before each use in the case of hobby machines.

On the felt washers, their primary purpose is to keep chips and dust out of the bearings.  And secondarily to retard grease slinging.  For the secondary purpose, they would not be effective against oil.


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## Weldo (May 19, 2020)

Thanks for all that info!  Can non-detergent oil even be had these days?  Maybe not from an automotive source but perhaps from a machine tool source?  I've seen on commonly on ebay way oil and spindle oil.  I'm gonna guess that spindle oil is for bearings and bushings and way oil is from everything else, like lead screws, gears and the bed ways.

Does that sound right?


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## pdentrem (May 19, 2020)

Most oil producers have non detergent oils in their line up. Even ACDelco had SAE 20 and 30 when I was working at dealership.


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## Weldo (May 19, 2020)

Does SAE refer to an oil being non detergent?  I figured that was just indicating that the oil had only one viscosity rating.  Like SAE30 vs 10w-30.  People would refer to SAE30 as "straight 30".


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## pdentrem (May 19, 2020)

SAE is for Society of Automotive Engineering which had set standards for many products found around the world. I personally have never seen a SAE non detergent oil that had a variable viscosity like 10W30 etc. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one out there. Today‘s oil have an ISO standard that is also recognized around the world, and has superseded the SAE standards of yesterday. Anyway, you are looking for “straight” X0 oil.


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## wa5cab (May 21, 2020)

To get back to your vibration problem, that usually indicates that one or more of the pulleys are out of balance.  To fix it you are going to have to find or build a widget that will indicate  where the heavy side is.  Or if you assume that there are no inclusions, bubbles, etc. in the casting (and hopefully there are none), what I would do is to mount the pulley on an arbor and mount that in the chuck of another lathe.  And true up the outside of the casting Basically, a dial indicator touching the pulley anywhere should not move.  That includes down in the belt grooves.


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## Weldo (May 22, 2020)

On the counter shaft pulley I can see some drill marks that make me believe it was balanced from the factory.  




Of course that was 60+ years ago.  There does appear to be a tiny bit of wobble to the pulley as well.  Maybe it was bumped or dropped at some point.  I can try to rig up something to find any heavy spot as you suggested.

About oil, I've been using this automotive motor oil for years:




Castrol HD SAE 30.  Now I'm seeing that it may not be the best choice.

What do you guys think of this oil from ebay?  Link

Other than this, what's a good source for a light weight non detergent oil?


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## timmeh (May 22, 2020)

Weldo said:


> Here's a few old pictures from the rebuild.
> 
> It appears to be grease on the bearings when they were disassembled.  Also would not the grease fittings indicate the use of a grease gun for lubrication?
> 
> ...


Collars have grooves, on the pulley as well. Original seals for those bearings were felt, I cut replacements from leather. Still slings grease, most just builds up on the collars and (bearing)outers, Wipey wipey.
Lawn mower engine oil(4stroke) should be around 20w, although I guess that could vary depending on local climate, but I should imagine only weirdos would be mowin' lawn in tha' snow....


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## wa5cab (May 23, 2020)

I have been using Mobile Circulating Oil Heavy Medium ISO 68.  Used to be able to get it from Enco before they were swallowed up.  For a while, Tractor Supply carried SAE 20 in gallons.  I bought a couple of gallons and that's what I'm using now.  The SAE 20 shown from eBay looks fine.  But at $6.99 per pint, that's $55.92 per gallon.  So it's pretty expensive.  Around $20 per gallon is what I have paid but I haven't checked recently.  On the ways, I have been using Way Oil as it clings to vertical surfaces better.  More expensive, too.

Timmeh, if your countershaft is slinging much grease, you may be using too much.  And in the South at least, Briggs & Stratton 4-stroke engines called for SAE 30 as best I can recall from many years ago.  But I haven't owned a lawn mower for 30 years, at least.

While age doesn't affect pulley balance, they can get bent over the years.


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## Weldo (May 23, 2020)

Thanks for the tips @wa5cab.

Regarding using too much grease, Since I'm dealing with Zerk fittings, how do I know how much grease to pump in?  If it starts to seep out under pumping pressure it's too much I guess.


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## wa5cab (May 24, 2020)

As you are supposed to lube everything either daily or before each day that you actually use the lathe, I would start which one full stroke of the grease gun's pump and reduce it if that slings too much grease.  Pump the grease gun 1 full stroke (or until grease come out) to be certain of the amount that you are injecting into the Zerk.  Put a Magic Marker mark on the side of one of the pulleys to confirm that they are stopping at a random point so that you know you aren't putting the grease in the same spot every time.


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## Wierd Harold (May 24, 2020)

If you search back about a year for "New Counter-shaft Bushings" there is a thread about changing the needle bearings to sealed ball bearings.  Makes for a clean and smooth setup that doesn't need any attention. 
HWF


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## Weldo (May 24, 2020)

Dude!  I just read about your solution on that thread, it's brilliant!

Since I already bought the felt washers I'm gonna try that first but if I still get grease slinging I'll try to tackle the sealed bearing project.  I'll probably have to attempt to make the bearing holders from scratch since I only have the one lathe...  It's kind of the chicken and the egg thing.


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