# Striatech DVR motor for PM's 2-3 HP lathes 1236,1236T,1340GT.. etc



## skcncx (Jul 23, 2022)

*Anyone consider a Striatech DVR motor for a variable speed lathe motor conversion?*









						striatech.com - where mind meets motor
					

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They call it a "Switched Reluctance Motor", it seems their motor type is unique.  I have one on my Nova Drill press and Rikon Band saw... great for dialing in the right speed and making my band saw go from 100 SFPM for steel, all the way to 1500+ SFPM for wood. I was as in my local hardware store and noticed they were selling the 1.75 HP at a pretty good discount and thought it seems like a decent option for the 1236T lathe I plan to buy.  

*They tout:*
- max torque over the entire speed range 
- smarts to keep desired RPM constant based on monitoring load (as well as saving power consumption when load is lower)
- and many other things.

They show torque and RPM curves for the 1HP motor... did not find them for the larger motors.

I'm also not sure how much external input signaling you can wire (if any) to these like you can a VFD.  For instance, on the 1236T, I would need to send input from the motor control lever on the apron to signal you want to start the lathe and which direction depending on up or down you are moving the lever.


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## markba633csi (Jul 24, 2022)

Sounds like a great idea, what are the prices like?


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## matthewsx (Jul 24, 2022)

$800 to $1000






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					striatech.com


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## skcncx (Jul 24, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> $800 to $1000
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea. Not cheap.  Not sure how this compares to a VFD and motor combo though.

I picked up the 1.75 HP one for $600.

I'm going to research this a bit more and reach out to them... if I can start/stop, change direction, wire in e-stop from external controls, even possibly have my own RPM dial... seems like that's all I would need to seamlessly incorporate into the PM-1236T.


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## mksj (Jul 24, 2022)

Not a lot of information as to the dimensions and performance characteristics of the Striatech reluctance motors. The main selling point seems to be synchronous speed, more compact size and efficiency; but not much different than a BLDC motor or encoder based (software or mechanical) feedback VFD inverter motor. A VFD with an inverter/vector motor in SLV mode will have a speed regulation of better than 0.1% and will maintain constant torque typically down to 6 Hz with an inverter rated motor. Vector motors will be down to almost 0 speed and can develop 200% of rated torque or higher out to the rated base speed for up to a minute. I did not see any information as to the base speed of the reluctance motor but a torque chart showed that it was not much different than a non-synchronous inverter motor. Running a non-synchronous inverter motor above its based speed you gain the mechanical advantage to Hp/Torque for the rated RPM. So the reluctance motor may be a consideration if replacing a single phase motor, and needing a smaller motor frame, but unfortunately there is no information as to the Striatech controller, programming, external inputs, etc. and also braking ability/use of an external braking resistor. The last aspect of not being able to control the braking rate and lack of external controls would be a concern in this application in my view.


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## skcncx (Jul 24, 2022)

mksj said:


> Not a lot of information as to the dimensions and performance characteristics of the Striatech reluctance motors. The main selling point seems to be synchronous speed, more compact size and efficiency; but not much different than a BLDC motor or encoder based (software or mechanical) feedback VFD inverter motor. A VFD with an inverter/vector motor in SLV mode will have a speed regulation of better than 0.1% and will maintain constant torque typically down to 6 Hz with an inverter rated motor. Vector motors will be down to almost 0 speed and can develop 200% of rated torque or higher out to the rated base speed for up to a minute. I did not see any information as to the base speed of the reluctance motor but a torque chart showed that it was not much different than a non-synchronous inverter motor. Running a non-synchronous inverter motor above its based speed you gain the mechanical advantage to Hp/Torque for the rated RPM. So the reluctance motor may be a consideration if replacing a single phase motor, and needing a smaller motor frame, but unfortunately there is no information as to the Striatech controller, programming, external inputs, etc. and also braking ability/use of an external braking resistor. The last aspect of not being able to control the braking rate and lack of external controls would be a concern in this application in my view.


Thanks for the input.  I have very little knowledge of VFD and all the types of motors... seems you really gotta know what you are ordering to ensure your motor is of the right type, paired with a right sized and featured VFD etc.  A bit daunting for the uninitiated.  It's not even like you can buy VFD  & motor combo kits... or I'm looking in all the wrong places.

I'll see what striatech tells me, but if you cannot control this thing with external inputs, it's not really an option.  For a tool that could just use their control panel, seems like an easy, all in on solution.   That's why it looked attractive to me.  Initially, I plan to order the PM-1236-T single phase.. and if the RPM range via the gear box suffices, I'll just save my money.

On the striatech you can control the braking rate and ramp up time in their interface on the controller they give you.... as to how robust it is and how much force it can take to brake would be a question I have.  A small thing, but if it's as efficient as they say, saving amp draw and power is a small benefit.


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## matthewsx (Jul 25, 2022)

Read Mark's threads and posts and you'll learn an awful lot. A good VFD can do a whole lot and integrate with the whole machine.

John


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## JimDawson (Jul 25, 2022)

I have to say I'm a bit underwhelmed by the Striatech specifications.  But really no more expensive than a standard 3 phase motor and VFD combination.  The only advantage I can see is the slight power savings.  The torque curve is really nowhere near as good as a standard 3 phase motor and a sensorless vector VFD, which is normally pretty flat from about 3 Hz to 60 Hz at 100% torque, and then falls off as the speed increases above 60 Hz.

The real downside I can see is control limitations and the lack of a suitable interface.


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## skcncx (Jul 26, 2022)

*Striatech called me back. It's as expected, no interface to externally control their motor.  However, they are working on it for their future controller.  With some custom mods,* they may have something I can do now but they have to talk to their engineers before getting back to me again.

While I'm going with the single phase on the PM-1236T to start I still plan to keep my eyes open for an "easy" way to put a variable speed motor on it.  Ha, easy....  after hours of research and lots of questions .  Everything is easy... once you understand it and have done it once.  

Seems like with all the variable speed motors out there, why not do away with the gear box, just a low/high pulley set and do the rest from a motor that has torque through the range... out of the box of course .

Based on RPM calculators, turning 1" aluminum stock, I should be around 500 SFM which calculates out to 1900 RPM, double that for .5" stock. The PM-1236T only goes to 1800.  Though, on my atlas 618, I max out at 1500 RPM and can get a decent finish... so, for the newbie, it's hard to know where to start.  Seems like most lathes top out around 2000 RPM.  Do people actually turn at 2000-4000 rpm?

My brain is just hurting from trying to nail down what lathe, motor combo, electronics if I go the VFD route eventually, DRO choices, so many particulars.


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## matthewsx (Jul 26, 2022)

Still need gears for torque multiplication. 

If it was me ordering a new lathe I’d go with 3 phase even if I just used a static converter to start.


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## JimDawson (Jul 27, 2022)

skcncx said:


> *Striatech called me back. It's as expected, no interface to externally control their motor.  However, they are working on it for their future controller.  With some custom mods,* they may have something I can do now but they have to talk to their engineers before getting back to me again.





skcncx said:


> While I'm going with the single phase on the PM-1236T to start I still plan to keep my eyes open for an "easy" way to put a variable speed motor on it.  Ha, easy....  after hours of research and lots of questions .  Everything is easy... once you understand it and have done it once.


I guess it depends on your budget.  Most likely the least cost and easiest method is a standard 3 phase motor and a sensorless vector VFD. The 3 phase motor/VFD combo will give you a wide speed range, using the lathe gearbox for the course speed adjustment and then use the VFD for the fine speed adjustment.  On that machine I would not increase the motor size too much, maybe up to 1.5kW (2HP).  If you want to go top shelf, then a servo motor would be a good choice.

Having said that, the stock 3HP, 3 phase motor and static phase converter + the lathe gear box (8 speeds, 72 to 2000 RPM) has given me all the range I have needed for about 30 years.  I thought about putting a VFD on the machine, but I just haven't figured out a good reason to do so.



skcncx said:


> Seems like with all the variable speed motors out there, why not do away with the gear box, just a low/high pulley set and do the rest from a motor that has torque through the range... out of the box of course .


This is certainly possible if you put enough motor on the machine.  My CNC lathe has a 7.5kW (10HP) servo motor direct driving the spindle at 1:1, about the same torque capability of a small auto engine, but I think a motor that large would twist your lathe into a pretzel.  It will run 0 to 3000 RPM.  I replaced the original 7.5kW spindle motor (0 to 5000 RPM) with the servo so I could have a C axis for making some parts, I lost 2000 RPM in the process, but nearly doubled the torque.  I rarely run it over 2500 RPM anyway.



skcncx said:


> Based on RPM calculators, turning 1" aluminum stock, I should be around 500 SFM which calculates out to 1900 RPM, double that for .5" stock. The PM-1236T only goes to 1800.  Though, on my atlas 618, I max out at 1500 RPM and can get a decent finish... so, for the newbie, it's hard to know where to start.  Seems like most lathes top out around 2000 RPM.  Do people actually turn at 2000-4000 rpm?
> 
> My brain is just hurting from trying to nail down what lathe, motor combo, electronics if I go the VFD route eventually, DRO choices, so many particulars.


On my manual lathe (13x40), most turning is done at < 500 RPM no matter the material. Maximum spindle speed is 2000 RPM and I only use that with collets when working on tiny parts.  Don't worry about the speed charts, they are geared for production work, using flood coolant, and under ideal conditions.  On my CNC lathe I generally turn aluminum at about 400 FPM, and SS in the 300 FPM range, but normally keep the spindle speed below 1800 RPM in all cases.


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## mksj (Jul 27, 2022)

I am not sure where you are going with this motor thing and making it more complex then it needs to be. This typically happens when you do not have the lathe in front of you and you overthink things, part of this is experience and also making past mistakes and learning from them. First off the tooling SFM is based on ideal conditions, CNC level type machines that are many tons, for the most part they are not achievable on most manual lathes. It also is not only about SFM but many other parameters like depth of cut, feed rate, tooling/insert geometry, stiffness, etc. The type of tooling you use is also specific to the size, Hp, weight, rigidity.... of the machine. You might get a copy of David Best's book "Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide" which gives some great guidance and specific tooling and their use.  In general, when using metal cutting inserts, I end up using about 1/2 the SFM of those on the box. Lathes with splash lubrication typically top out at 2000 RPM (maximum 2500) , beyond that you are risking bearing failure. There are also other limits such as chucks, gears, gearbox, etc.

There is no need to upgrade the motor unless you want to break something, the space is very limited, and there is "0" reason to go to a larger motor in a machine like the 1236T that is too light to handle it. With the stock 3 phase motor, with a VFD, you can convert it to a single speed belt drive by flipping the motor pulley and belting it from the large motor pulley to the large headstock pulley. You then can use just the Hi/Low right lever for most turning and the left lever if you need a bit lower or higher range. There is no free lunch that you cannot just turn a knob an expect a motor to deliver full Hp/Torque form 0 speed to maximum speed, you also loose the mechanical advantage of the gearbox. There are many posting in this forum and on-line that review the performance characteristics +/-'s. In either case, you will never be at a loss of power with the stock 3 phase motor and a VFD. If you happen to only be able to get a single phase 1236T, then there are only a few "2 Hp" motors that will fit, they are all TENV types and require mods. Since the Striatech DVR motor cannot be controlled by external controls, it is out of the picture for this application. If you want to keep it for say a belt sander, go for it.

I previously outlined a simple method to do a basic VFD install for many of the PM lathes, including the 1236T, 1340GT, 1440GT. 1440TL series, etc. that many people have used and been very happy with the end result. It is much less $$ then your current path, and at the end of the day will have as good or better performance. The last iteration is listed on page 9, but lots of information in that thread. PM/QMT also has a similar install document. A few things about the 1236T is it is a 12" swing so the belt length is shorter, the motor compartment would be smaller, and the front panel for switch gear is smaller. If you need some specific guidance on the conversion below, you can always PM me, or ask a lot of other knowledgeable people in this forum. 









						Pm1340gt Lathe Basic Vfd Control Conversion Using The Stock Control Board And Switches
					

Not really and issue since the resistor's I recommend are completely sealed and the wiring is embedded. You could also mount it on the inside of the VFD cabinet which I have seen done. It does not get warm so heat is not an issue. My original 1340GT VFD with the WJ200 had it in the headstock...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## skcncx (Jul 27, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> I guess it depends on your budget. Most likely the least cost and easiest method is a standard 3 phase motor and a sensorless vector VFD.


I didn't realize that was an option, I assume that's what @matthewsx was referring to by static converter.  And I assume that pretty much leave everything in tact control/wiring wise of the PM-1236T.



JimDawson said:


> On my manual lathe (13x40), most turning is done at < 500 RPM no matter the material. Maximum spindle speed is 2000 RPM and I only use that with collets when working on tiny parts. Don't worry about the speed charts, they are geared for production work, using flood coolant, and under ideal conditions.


Good to know!  I'll have to slow my Atlas 618 down to 500 RPM and turn some .5" to 1" aluminum and see what happens.  I've been using carbide CCMT inserts and I purchased a couple of the AR Warner HHS inserts as it seems I get better results with the HSS inserts.  I guess, start slow, good results, no need to go any faster.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 27, 2022)

Listen to what Mark is telling you, switching the motor is not going to be a simple swap.  I have the 1236T and got three phase.  The three phase version comes with a 2hp motor and not 1.5 like the single phase model.  I have a vfd on the stock motor and haven’t found any reason to switch to a different motor yet, but others here have reported smoother performance with the motors they switched to.  The performance of the stock motor is good enough for my uses that I don’t feel it necessary to go through the trouble to change, and I would rather spend that money on tooling.

If you think you will want variable speed in the future, I would recommend getting the three phase now since you might not be able to get a drop in 3 phase motor from PM, and your choices are very limited on what will fit even with modifications, let alone without.  I took measurements of my motor and it does not fit any off the shelf IEC motor I could find, but I did find one motor that looks like it would fit without modifications, but would need a different pulley bore.  And it’s definitely not a NEMA size motor, hence the comments you will need to make modifications to get one to fit.  

Keep in mind, with a VFD, you need to modify the stock controls to work with the VFD.  You can’t just hook it up to the power input and use the stock controls, a VFD must be connected directly to the motor otherwise you will damage the VFD.  If you wanted to keep the stock controls, you could use an rotary phase converter, static phase converter, or if you had plenty of money burning a hole in your pocket, a Phase Perfect.


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## skcncx (Jul 27, 2022)

mksj said:


> I am not sure where you are going with this motor thing and making it more complex then it needs to be. This typically happens when you do not have the lathe in front of you and you overthink things, part of this is experience and also making past mistakes and learning from them.


I'm not sure where I'm going with this either .  Given these lathes are so expensive (for a hobbyist) and all the components have to work together, change one part and you need to change other parts (generally speaking). I partly was exercising in my mind my options for a future upgrade from single phase to a variable speed motor... whatever technology it would be.



mksj said:


> You might get a copy of David Best's book "Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide"


Thanks for the reference, I'll have to get that.  He gave me a couple other docs I read and was super helpful.



mksj said:


> There is no need to upgrade the motor unless you want to break something, the space is very limited, and there is "0" reason to go to a larger motor in a machine like the 1236T that is too light to handle it.


I have zero desire to add more HP.  I assume the 1.5 HP for the single phase is plenty.  The Striatech was 1.75 HP anyway. The "upgrade" was entirely for variable speed to hit more in the range from 90 to 1800.  All this is speculation on my part as to the actual need.  However, looking at the RPM ranges on the PM-1236T you get quite a few options from 90 to 1160 then a big jump is to 1800.  A 640 RPM gap from 1160 to 1800.  There's also a 380 RPM gap between 780 and 1160.  I'm coming to the conclusion the single phase will go a long way as it is.  Especially since I hear some say they hardly turn stuff over 500-700 RPM any way.

I just need to learn what I'm doing first, that's for sure.  I'm just trying to avoid making a bad purchase but also not just thinking I have to upgrade everything either.... hence why I think my best decision was to not pull the trigger on the PM-1228 (as good as it would be for me) and jump to the PM-1236T (Taiwan quality).  I would have hoped, going to the PM-1236T I didn't have to think about motor options... or at least think I need to.



mksj said:


> If you happen to only be able to get a single phase 1236T,


Well, single phase I can get in October this year, 3 phase next year (Feb/March).  So, impatience is in play for sure and if I don't think I need to upgrade, single phase is just easier.  I guess that tells me that the 3 phase is more popular as they are sold out (or they just sell fewer of them).



mksj said:


> I previously outlined a simple method to do a basic VFD install for many of the PM lathes, including the 1236T, 1340GT, 1440GT. 1440TL series, etc. that many people have used and been very happy with the end result. It is much less $$ then your current path, and at the end of the day will have as good or better performance.


I downloaded that doc, well done... I'll have to go through it thoroughly as it seems pretty easy to follow.  Thanks for the detail info!


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## skcncx (Jul 27, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> Listen to what Mark is telling you, switching the motor is not going to be a simple swap. I have the 1236T and got three phase. The three phase version comes with a 2hp motor and not 1.5 like the single phase model.


I hear ya... it sounds like single phase motor, unlikely to upgrade because of challenges.  3 phase with static converter is the easiest to get started and easiest to upgrade by swapping the static converter to VFD + the extra controls and wiring etc.

And to say it out loud... the VFD primarily gets me variable speed ranges (more between the gaps the gearbox provides), slow start and braking?  I know other fancy stuff can be done, but is that the primary advantage.

*Conversely, Is the 1.5 HP enough power and RPM ranges via gear box likely to suffice most stuff?  *I have no doubt 3 phase w/VFD is better.... I think it comes down to the extra cost of a static converter and longer wait time... Single or 3 phase are the same price from PM... just have the added cost of static converter.



Ischgl99 said:


> If you wanted to keep the stock controls, you could use an rotary phase converter, static phase converter,


Yea, I didn't realize that was even an option until someone mentioned it last night... as stated above, that makes me think about it as I don't HAVE to go the ALL IN VFD route right way.


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## skcncx (Jul 27, 2022)

*I realize now, the question I should have asked... how many PM-1236T with the single phase owners out there are perfectly happy and feel there's no need to upgrade to 3 phase with VFD?*

In my head... the 3 phase using static converter is just a pre-cursor to adding the VFD option down the road.  Other than going from 1.5 to 2 HP motor from single to 3 phase, the 3 phase with static converter is equivalent to single phase.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 27, 2022)

The static converter will not generate full motor hp since it is not generating three phases, rather artificially creating the phase angle difference to get the motor started.  I think I heard motors run on a static phase converter are not covered under warranty, so you might want to check on that.  I had a static converter on my mill when I first got it from the previous owner, but it always sounded like the magic smoke would come out of the motor when I was using it, and it was easy to stall the motor, so quickly switched to a VFD and never looked back.  It runs a lot smoother now.  My mill has a custom motor, so I need to be careful with it since changing that is not going to be fun, or cheap.  I only have experience with that one static phase converter installation, so don’t know if that is typical.

I still haven’t added a speed pot to change speeds on my VFD.  I used the coolant switch to give me 60hz and 30hz, so I get all the standard speeds at the flip of a switch without having to change the motor belt position.  That is fine for most of what I do, but I will add a speed pot to dial in the speeds at some point, but it hasn’t been a priority.  The likely reason the larger motor is installed on the three phase version is the motor hp is proportional to the motor speed when run on a VFD.   At half speed on the VFD, that is about half hp of the motor.  I haven’t had any issues turning at a 30hz motor speed, so the 1.5hp single phase should be fine for anything this size lathe can handle.  

If both were the same delivery, three phase without a doubt.  But, having to wait that much longer for the three phase might push me into the single phase machine and just plan on upgrading at some point in the future.  You can also look at Eisen and see if they have this machine in stock, or coming sooner.  They are the same machine made in the same factory.  There could be some minor differences, but I couldn’t find any between the two.  Shipping times are estimates, and with how screwed up the logistics supply chain is, I would take any stated arrival times as best case, and likely longer.


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## skcncx (Jul 27, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I used the coolant switch to give me 60hz and 30hz, so I get all the standard speeds at the flip of a switch without having to change the motor belt position.


Brilliant and creative!  

I'll likely just leave it in high range.. that's 205 to 1800 RPM in the "A" pulley setup.

One thing that did cross my mind was I could change the pulley sizes... if for some odd reason I need a slightly different motor pully to spindle/gear box pully setup.... but that's pretty limited in how much you will affect it.



Ischgl99 said:


> You can also look at Eisen and see if they have this machine in stock, or coming sooner. They are the same machine made in the same factory.


I have checked them out, a slightly better pricing but it has to be shipped since they are a Canadian company... I can pick up locally from PM and just my impression from the 2 emails with Eisen and many with PM... PM has better support.. not worth saving just a couple hundred.


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## skcncx (Jul 27, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> The only advantage I can see is the slight power savings


Ya know... the power savings is starting to look like a pretty big deal... I just got my new electric rate for our local aggregation program... it's going from .0495 to .0979... my per kWh just nearly doubled .


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## JimDawson (Jul 27, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Ya know... the power savings is starting to look like a pretty big deal... I just got my new electric rate for our local aggregation program... it's going from .0495 to .0979... my per kWh just nearly doubled .



Might be a good excuse to go with a servo motor.  They only use enough power to keep the RPM constant at the current torque requirement.

Example: My CNC lathe spindle idling at around 600 RPM runs about 2.4% of the rated power input, then goes up from there as needed when cutting.  Where my mill, equipped with a standard 3 phase motor/VFD runs about 60% rated power input when idling at around 600 RPM.  The difference is in the way the motors work.  Bottom line is that a standard 3 phase motor is not as efficient in a variable speed/torque application as a servo motor, but probably more efficient in a properly sized fixed speed/torque application.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 27, 2022)

skcncx said:


> I can pick up locally from PM and just my impression from the 2 emails with Eisen and many with PM... PM has better support.. not worth saving just a couple hundred.


Now I remember you mentioning that earlier, yes, definitely easier to run over and pick it up.  Then you can oogle what they have for your next purchase 



skcncx said:


> Ya know... the power savings is starting to look like a pretty big deal... I just got my new electric rate for our local aggregation program... it's going from .0495 to .0979... my per kWh just nearly doubled .


Is that your total rate?  Supply and delivery?  Here in CT, our supply charge is $0.12 and the delivery charge is $0.13 per kwh.  At $0.25/kwh, every bit of savings helps.


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## mksj (Jul 27, 2022)

skcncx said:


> I'll likely just leave it in high range.. that's 205 to 1800 RPM in the "A" pulley setup.
> 
> One thing that did cross my mind was I could change the pulley sizes... if for some odd reason I need a slightly different motor pulley to spindle/gear box pulley setup.... but that's pretty limited in how much you will affect it.


As I mentioned, if you flip the "stock" motor pulley you split the speed range, i.e. low speed pulley is ~2.2:1 and high speed pulley is approximately 1:1, flip the motor pulley going from the larger motor pulley to the larger headstock pulley you now have ~1.6:1. Add a VFD and run it from 30-90 Hz you have the full speed range. 

Single phase motors are not very power efficient, a 3 phase motor in the 84-90% efficiency, Striatech gives no numbers but they are not comparing it to a VFD driven motor, you will probably break even in power savings after 100 years... Your power is cheap, in San Diego the off peak rates (i.e. when you are working and not home) is around $0.30 KWH and in the evening it moves up to $0.70, and then they start stacking fee hikes if you are burning more than a 100W bulb, let alone run a large motor. I am running a 9.6 KW solar system, my excess power (4 MWH) generation this year they give me back $0.03 KWH, which basically covers all the fees and taxes they pass through.


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## skcncx (Jul 28, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> Is that your total rate? Supply and delivery? Here in CT, our supply charge is $0.12 and the delivery charge is $0.13 per kwh. At $0.25/kwh, every bit of savings helps.


$0.0495 is just the per/kWh supply portion.  My last bill for using 1,650 kWh was $201.  $80 was just for supply, $120 for delivery and various fees.

My bill doesn't show me what the per/kWh delivery rate is, but even if it was a flat fee, my next bill at .for same usage will jump from $201 to $280... since the $80 portion of supply cost is nearly doubling.

I have just had a very good rate lately.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 28, 2022)

skcncx said:


> $0.0495 is just the per/kWh supply portion.  My last bill for using 1,650 kWh was $201.  $80 was just for supply, $120 for delivery and various fees.
> 
> My bill doesn't show me what the per/kWh delivery rate is, but even if it was a flat fee, my next bill at .for same usage will jump from $201 to $280... since the $80 portion of supply cost is nearly doubling.
> 
> I have just had a very good rate lately.


Ok, so it looks like your delivery charge is about $0.073 per kwh.  Even with your supply doubling, your electricity rate is lower then probably everyone in the Northeast, but still enough that it’s worth considering efficiency.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 28, 2022)

mksj said:


> Your power is cheap, in San Diego the off peak rates (i.e. when you are working and not home) is around $0.30 KWH and in the evening it moves up to $0.70, and then they start stacking fee hikes if you are burning more than a 100W bulb, let alone run a large motor.


Ouch!  I am really happy we are not variable rate here in CT, that would certainly push a lot more people to use solar.  But, as more people use solar, the delivery portion of the electricity bill needs to be paid by a smaller number of people and will keep going up.


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## skcncx (Jul 28, 2022)

mksj said:


> Single phase motors are not very power efficient, a 3 phase motor in the 84-90% efficiency, Striatech gives no numbers but they are not comparing it to a VFD driven motor, you will probably break even in power savings after 100 years...


Right, I imagine they are comparing to a standard AC, single phase motor.

*Thanks for all the input!  I have levelled up my knowledge on a lot of things with everyone's advice.  *If for nothing else, I appreciate the discussion and learning.

With that, I ended up putting my order in and deposit for the single phase PM-1236T.  Arrives mid October (barring delays of course).  3 phase was not until next year.  I guess if I really think it was a bad decision I can see if I can change the order and just wait the extra 4-6 months.

I have to start somewhere and for my skill level, any motor will get me going.  This is a big upgrade over my Atlas 618 with a sewing machine motor (BLDC) and that fact I was considering their PM-1228 version the PM-1236T is a big step up from my original plan.  Personally, I wish they would give you a BLDC motor option for this or pre-wired with the VFD 3 phase they sell.  Can't say it's logical, but I would wait longer for the 3 phase if it was turn key.

This is all that's on my order at the moment, DRO to be added.  I'll keep a few cutters and inserts from my atlas 618 , but may opt for PM's 5/8 master turning set or a set from AR Warner.... there are endless options.
•    PM-1236T 12″X36″ ULTRA PRECISION LATHE 
•    Wedge Quick Change Tool Post Set, BXA Size
•    Micrometer Carriage Stop
•    1/8-5/8 Ultra Precision Keyless Drill Chuck MT3
•    MT-3 Slim Body Live Center


Also, I talked to PM's tech support just to effectively go over exactly the advice given here on single vs 3 phase and of course 3 phase is preferred for all the discussed reasons, finer RPM control, braking, slow start etc. He did mention some have reported the single phase has some harmonic affect and can show up in the material being turned, you can see it but don't feel it.  He also mentioned that he was of the understanding that the 3 phase motor was likely a higher quality motor and overall longer lasting (that is mainly because of how 3 phase motors are designed) vs single phase motors with more components to likely fail.


----------



## skcncx (Jul 29, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Still need gears for torque multiplication.


Not to beat a dead horse... that makes sense... but then then PM-1228 doesn't have a gear box, just low/high pulley range and the rest is just the 2 HP variable speed BLDC motor.... so, maybe that works for smaller class lathes... but the PM-1236T single or 3 phase is only 2 HP as well, not like it needs more HP.



matthewsx said:


> If it was me ordering a new lathe I’d go with 3 phase even if I just used a static converter to start.


Yea, too bad they are 4+ months longer than the single phase... I guess in the long run, that's not that long.  Though PM does have one OEM PM-1236T 3 phase motor on the shelf to sell.. but it's $399.. I ended up ordering the single phase version since it's coming mid October... but at least I know what $$ I'm up against *if* I do the full motor swap to 3 phase w/VFD and all it entails.

As others have mentioned... there aren't many, if any, motor options for this lathe, sounds like space constraints being the biggest.... maybe if you hang the motor off the back more you would have more options if not trying to fit it in the space already given.


----------



## matthewsx (Jul 29, 2022)

skcncx said:


> Not to beat a dead horse... that makes sense... but then then PM-1228 doesn't have a gear box, just low/high pulley range and the rest is just the 2 HP variable speed BLDC motor.... so, maybe that works for smaller class lathes... but the PM-1236T single or 3 phase is only 2 HP as well, not like it needs more HP.
> 
> 
> Yea, too bad they are 4+ months longer than the single phase... I guess in the long run, that's not that long.  Though PM does have one OEM PM-1236T 3 phase motor on the shelf to sell.. but it's $399.. I ended up ordering the single phase version since it's coming mid October... but at least I know what $$ I'm up against *if* I do the full motor swap to 3 phase w/VFD and all it entails.
> ...


Torque is different from HP, and the 1228 at 490 lbs is in a different class than the 1236-T at 850lbs. I'm sure both are fine lathes but I'd expect the 1236-T to be able to take a much bigger cut than the 1228. The old saying "HP sells cars but torque wins races" applies here, both my lathes have back gears and it definitely makes a difference beyond just slowing down the spindle.

If they have the 3 phase motor in stock you might as well get it now, no telling if it will be available when you need it.

One other thing to consider, a longer wait gives you more chance to find a deal on a good used lathe. I've seen that happen many times to forum members.

John


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## skcncx (Jul 29, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Torque is different from HP, and the 1228 at 490 lbs is in a different class than the 1236-T at 850lbs. I'm sure both are fine lathes but I'd expect the 1236-T to be able to take a much bigger cut than the 1228. The old saying "HP sells cars but torque wins races" applies here, both my lathes have back gears and it definitely makes a difference beyond just slowing down the spindle.


Yea, there's a lot to this... one number doesn't tell all... I guess it's like my 6.5 HP shop vac on 110v.... it only get's that fake HP number because how fast it can spin the motor (in a vacuum tube, test lab).



matthewsx said:


> If they have the 3 phase motor in stock you might as well get it now, no telling if it will be available when you need it.


It's crossing my mind.  My original budget went from $6K... now it's nearly at 10K for a PM-1236T with added accessories and DRO.  I'm hoping for a while I'm satisfied with the single phase motor.. I have to imagine for the next year or so, it will be good enough.  I don't think I'll regret going from the PM-1228 to the PM-1236T.

I'm also thinking about what $$ I want to hold back for a nicer 3 jaw chuck or 4 jaw chuck... to start the included economy 3 jaw chuck is all I'll have.



matthewsx said:


> One other thing to consider, a longer wait gives you more chance to find a deal on a good used lathe. I've seen that happen many times to forum members.


Been looking each day the last few months to see what comes up... so far, older stuff that all needs a complete reconditioning for the size I want. The challenge is if I "wait and see..." and nothing comes available in 5 months, it's not like the PM machines will be available then. It'll likely just be get in line again for another 4-5 months wait.  At least that's the current state of supply and existing orders.  Certainly paying a premium to buy new.  My anxiousness to have something sooner is certainly at play.


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## skcncx (Jul 29, 2022)

So what's the reason aftermarket motors are so hard to find to replace the motor in the PM-1236T (and possibly the 1340GT)?

Is it the size?  Not much room to mount it in?
Is it a certain class of motor that's just not common?

The docs just say "TEFC (1.125 kW, 1.5 HP)."

I asked PM for the specs on the single or 3 phase motor for the 1236T and basically was told "we don't know".  It can't be because it's some super top secret motor.  Maybe it's just purpose built for this one application so there's nothing else like it.  Seems like it would benefit them to have some easily replaceable.


----------



## mksj (Jul 30, 2022)

It is easily replaceable if you use the stock motor. This is fairly typical of the smaller lathes that hang the motors off the back of the headstock, they do not have enough room for standard off the shelf motors. It's not that they do not care, it is how the manufacturer provides them. If you do a search there are a number of threads on the subject for the 1340GT which uses the same 3 phase motor. Basically a replacement motor is a TENV 145 frame size, 2Hp, 1750 RPM. The usual replacement motor is the Marathon E467A, Marathon Y551, Marathon Y526,  Baldor/Reliance  IDNM3587T motor and some other variants of these motors. The E467A is the easiest to fit because it is very short. Standard TEFC motors do not fit. The belt sizes are also different between the 1236T/1340GT, the motor dimensions are attached.









						PM1340 lathe - motor swap to Marathon E-467, what pully to use?
					

Hey Guys, Been ~1.5 yrs now, since receiving my PM1340-GT and PM30-MV. Upon receiving, worked on getting the lathe outfitted with VFD, and other "retrofits" as found on this forum. mksj helped a lot! Thanks Mark! Also, PM30-MV has been "cnc'd" since, using Centroid Acorn, DMM AC servos and...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				











						PM 1236/1340-T OEM Drive Belt Fragments
					

Anybody out there with the 1236/1340-T have any issues with the OEM Drive Belt? I have consistent small fragments coming off the belt when it runs. Has proper belt tension. I'm leaning more to a poor quality V-Belt as the culprit. What have you guys used as a replacement belt?




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				









						EMW e-commerce
					






					www.electricmotorwholesale.com
				




Baldor IDNM3587T, tight fit and required some minimal mods. Only the factory motor is a drop in replacement. Almost all these motors will spin up to 120Hz, so you want to fit them with a small single belt pulley, this way you get the low speed benefit mechanical ratio and also the same top end speed range as the high speed pulley.


----------



## Ischgl99 (Jul 30, 2022)

I’m not sure I would buy the motor from PM just yet.  It’s nice that it would be a drop in fit, but that motor uses class E windings, which are two steps below standard NEMA motors with F class from companies like Baldor, so that could limit how long it will last under VFD operation.  E class insulation has a lower rating than B class, that is a bit lower than F class.  Lower class winding insulation tends to not last as long as the higher quality F and H insulation class when used with VFDs.  As hobbyists, we generally don’t push our machines like industrial users do, so I think the motor is good enough that most people would not need to upgrade it, but if I needed to replace it, I would most likely get a better quality one even though getting a motor from someone else will most likely will need some modifications, and cost more, but it is probably the best long term solution.  

The motor area on these lathes is very short as you can see in the pictures Mark posted, so standard NEMA TEFC motors won’t fit.  TENV motors don’t have a cooling fan, so tend to be shorter, and are more likely to fit.  Since lathes are operated intermittently, you probably will not need a fan to cool the motor.  The motor supplied has an IEC 90L foot mounting and shaft height, but a 19mm shaft instead of the 24mm standard for that size motor.  IEC motors many times are a bit smaller than an equivalent power NEMA motor, so they only made it as big as is needed.  There are 2hp 90L motors available that will fit, but I haven’t found one with the inverter duty rating and constant torque ratings as the motors mentioned above.  If you were going to do a lot of slow speed operation, those would be the best choice, but if you just wanted a drop in alternative to the PM motor, there are some options available.  The Baldor EMM3558 looks like it will fit in the existing space without modifications, but it is not inverter rated and has class B windings.  You can still run it on a VFD, it’s just not as good a choice as an inverter rated motor.  So better than the PM motor, but not as good as the others.  Also keep in mind with a 90L motor, with the 24mm shaft, the keyway comes through the smaller v groove on the pulley, so if you switch the motor, the keyway might hit the belt if you use the smaller v groove with the existing pulley.  You don’t have that problem with a NEMA motor since the shaft size is a bit smaller.

To keep your budget from really balloning, single phase should be fine for now.  Another consideration, shipping times are often delayed, so the arrival date for the three phase machines could be pushed back even further, so it could be next summer before you get a three phase machine.  That will give you time to search for something that might be a closer match than a NEMA motor that definitely needs a new mounting bracket, or modifications to fit.  And maybe you decide you are perfectly happy with the single phase motor and don’t need to spend the money on variable speed.


----------



## skcncx (Jul 30, 2022)

mksj said:


> It is easily replaceable if you use the stock motor. This is fairly typical of the smaller lathes that hang the motors off the back of the headstock, they do not have enough room for standard off the shelf motors. It's not that they do not care, it is how the manufacturer provides them. If you do a search there are a number of threads on the subject for the 1340GT which uses the same 3 phase motor. Basically a replacement motor is a TENV 145 frame size, 2Hp, 1750 RPM. The usual replacement motor is the Marathon E467A, Marathon Y551, Marathon Y526,  Baldor/Reliance  IDNM3587T motor and some other variants of these motors. The E467A is the easiest to fit because it is very short. Standard TEFC motors do not fit. The belt sizes are also different between the 1236T/1340GT, the motor dimensions are attached.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for al this info!  Looks like the baldor is an overall length of 14" if I read their size right for the Baldor/Reliance  IDNM3587T, would imagine the main body is around 11-12 inches.  That marathon is pretty short, overall length, including shaft is only 11.5" at most, so likely the bod is around 9.5".

From your pick the length seems to be the biggest constraint... though, I'm not sure how much the overall diameter of motors fluctuate I'll look up the other specs on those motors you listed.


----------



## skcncx (Jul 30, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I’m not sure I would buy the motor from PM just yet. It’s nice that it would be a drop in fit, but that motor uses class E windings, which are two steps below standard NEMA motors with F class from companies like Baldor, so that could limit how long it will last under VFD operation. E class insulation has a lower rating than B class, that is a bit lower than F class. Lower class winding insulation tends to not


I need to do my research on the difference classes and rating of motors... this really helped me out to understand.  I new TEFC meant totally enclosed fan cooled... was not aware of the TENV nor the different specs/ratings on windings, aka quality of the motor.  

I had a baldor motor on my last dust collection system, a big cyclone setup, that thing was heafty and very long.



Ischgl99 said:


> Another consideration, shipping times are often delayed, so the arrival date for the three phase machines could be pushed back even further, so it could be next summer before you get a three phase machine


Yea, I don't think I'll jump on the PM 3 phase motor yet and lean to getting the lathe sooner with my current order of single phase... I'm already way ahead of myself on a lot of this.... the realization I'm coming to .  Gotta figure out my stand setup, DRO and what inserts/tooling I plan to start with.  So far, I've primarily turned aluminum.  Most of what I have with my atlas 618 won't carry over and I'll just sell it all.  

That $399 for the 3 phase motor would probably be better spent on high quality 3 jaw adjustable chuck or a 4 jaw.. the PM-1236T only comes with what they call an "economy chuck".

*Can say thanks enough to all who have guided me in my learning.  *I enjoy the research and figuring it out, but when you are so "green", there's a lot I'm realizing I don't know.  Just trying to set myself up with a great solution that will last a long time.... heck, if the 1340GT was in stock sooner, I'd probably spring for that.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 30, 2022)

There is a ton of information with motors, many different configurations for all sorts of applications.  That is definitely a rabbit hole that can wait.

To be honest, a big part of the reason I bought the 1236T is because it was in stock in three phase and the 1340gt was I think a couple months out.  I wanted to get it before the snow came, and didn’t feel I needed the hardened gears for my uses.

The three jaw chuck that comes with the lathe is ok, nothing great.  I’m not sure it is made in Taiwan, there is not a country of origin like on the 4 jaw chuck, so I assume it is made in China.  Runout was 0.007”, so fine for first ops, but not as good as I would have expected being a Taiwanese lathe.  I like the 4 jaw chuck, that one is well made and worth the money.  Part of the reason I went with the 1236t is the included 3 jaw chuck, a small reason, but a reason none the less.  Had I known that it wasn’t Taiwanese, I might have opted for the 1340GT and bought a back plate for my Bison 5” 3 jaw chuck instead.  It worked out in the long run, the Bison is the right size for my dividing head.


----------



## mksj (Jul 30, 2022)

The issues with the motor insulation and rating tend to be more of a factor when operating the motors at the higher voltages (over 400V), and typically dual voltage motors do not have issues when run off of a VFD at the lower voltage. The stock lathe motors are single voltage, and not inverter rated, but I have yet to hear of a motor failure running it off of a VFD. TENV motors do not need any cooling fans even at the extremes of its operating range, they rely on the mass and convection to dissipate the heat as opposed to a fan. Three phase motors that are designed to operate over a wide speed range (i.e. vector motors with a constant torque ratio of 1000:1 or greater) are either TENV (no fan) or TEBC (electric fan). Motors with mechanical fans, tend to cool poorly below ~15-20Hz, and the fan can fail at high RPM. So a TEFC motor I usually recommend a 20-100 Hz range, I have a TEBC vector motor on my mill and it operates from 20-200 Hz. The TENV motors I have installed just get slightly warm, even with hard use. They are very quiet in operation.

The TENV inverter/vector motors come up on eBay new for 20-50% of current market pricing, so it is a matter of hunting and looking, you have plenty of time to snag a good deal if looking. Below are two 1.5Hp versions of the Baldor IDNM/IDVSNM, these are vector type motors so designed to be used with a VFD. They are beasts, and if you can get the first motor for $200-225 shipped, I would say that is a very good deal with he cost of shipping. I would want to see a picture of the first motor before buying it although he says it is new, then make an offer if you are interested. Given that the 1236T single phase is 1.5Hp, and also that you can substantially over drive the inverter type motors, you should have no shortage of power. There was a 2Hp version of the  IDVSNM3587T that just was sold to another HM member at about 10% of current market cost.
Baldor-Reliance IDNM3584T Inverter Drive Motor, 1.5HP, 1760 rpm, 145TC








						Baldor IDNM3584T General Purpose Motor for sale online | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Baldor IDNM3584T General Purpose Motor at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				











						Baldor-Reliance IDNM3584T Inverter Drive Motor, 1.5HP, 1760 rpm, 145TC, 0530M, T 781568144787 | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Baldor-Reliance IDNM3584T Inverter Drive Motor, 1.5HP, 1760 rpm, 145TC, 0530M, T at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


----------



## skcncx (Jul 31, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> To be honest, a big part of the reason I bought the 1236T is because it was in stock in three phase and the 1340gt was I think a couple months out. I wanted to get it before the snow came, and didn’t feel I needed the hardened gears for my uses.


I don't need the hardened gears for my light usage for sure, just a few hours a week at most over the long run... but I'm not sure how much benefit the "ground" gears on the 1340GT is.  PM touts... "*Hardened and Ground gears throughout headstock*, which leads to extremely smooth and quiet running for a geared head lathe".  I'm hoping the 1236T is a well oiled and smoothing running lathe, quiet(er) is always nice as well.


Ischgl99 said:


> The three jaw chuck that comes with the lathe is ok, nothing great. I’m not sure it is made in Taiwan,


Yea, they list it as "economy", I have no allusion it's anything special, I'd rather they drop the price and let me pick.  But, if it's part of the package though, I'll start with it.  1340GT without any chuck s $500 more, plus a $700 3 jaw adjustable chuck so, the 1340GT is really $1200 more... granted a little bigger, better chuck and 2 more years on warranty.

One thing that pushed me from the 1228 to the 1236T was the nicer steady and follower rest.  Disappointed the micrometer stop is not part of the package.   I'll probably never use/buy, but a taper attachment is at least available.


Ischgl99 said:


> I like the 4 jaw chuck, that one is well made and worth the money.


Good to know.  I have yet to use a 4 jaw, nor know how to properly dial in stock for swapping/flipping parts.  So far most of what I have done hasn't required parts to be flipped or re-chucked so a 3 jaw scroll has worked out well.  PM also has a 6" 4 jaw that's less than half the $ of their 8" 4 jaw, but doesn't appear to be as high quality.  With a D1-4 mount I have many sources and options to choose from.

I still need to source of bunch of little things, like a ball oiler can for IS68 oils, tool inserts for aluminum and steel, way & gear oil and all those maintenance items to keep it serviced nicely.


----------



## skcncx (Jul 31, 2022)

mksj said:


> The issues with the motor insulation and rating tend to be more of a factor when operating the motors at the higher voltages (over 400V), and typically dual voltage motors do not have issues when run off of a VFD at the lower voltage. The stock lathe motors are single voltage, and not inverter rated, but I have yet to hear of a motor failure running it off of a VFD. TENV motors do not need any cooling fans even at the extremes of its operating range, they rely on the mass and convection to dissipate the heat as opposed to a fan. Three phase motors that are designed to operate over a wide speed range (i.e. vector motors with a constant torque ratio of 1000:1 or greater) are either TENV (no fan) or TEBC (electric fan). Motors with mechanical fans, tend to cool poorly below ~15-20Hz, and the fan can fail at high RPM. So a TEFC motor I usually recommend a 20-100 Hz range, I have a TEBC vector motor on my mill and it operates from 20-200 Hz. The TENV motors I have installed just get slightly warm, even with hard use. They are very quiet in operation.
> 
> The TENV inverter/vector motors come up on eBay new for 20-50% of current market pricing, so it is a matter of hunting and looking, you have plenty of time to snag a good deal if looking. Below are two 1.5Hp versions of the Baldor IDNM/IDVSNM, these are vector type motors so designed to be used with a VFD. They are beasts, and if you can get the first motor for $200-225 shipped, I would say that is a very good deal with he cost of shipping. I would want to see a picture of the first motor before buying it although he says it is new, then make an offer if you are interested. Given that the 1236T single phase is 1.5Hp, and also that you can substantially over drive the inverter type motors, you should have no shortage of power. There was a 2Hp version of the  IDVSNM3587T that just was sold to another HM member at about 10% of current market cost.
> Baldor-Reliance IDNM3584T Inverter Drive Motor, 1.5HP, 1760 rpm, 145TC
> ...


Thanks for all this info... i certainly know a lot more and more confident as to what to look for.. like the models you listed . Sounds like a 1.5 HP on a VFD where you can over drive it along with the right gear selection on the lathe... no need for a 2 HP. 

Given all the remaining extras I need to buy, I'll need to resist for now, as hard as it is.  However, the more I think about it, the braking feature on a VFD'd motor might be just as important to me as the RPM tuning.. I'll be curious to see how fast the PM-1236T takes to stop with just the factory single phase motor.


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 1, 2022)

skcncx said:


> I'm hoping the 1236T is a well oiled and smoothing running lathe, quiet(er) is always nice as well.


Mine runs smooth, I don’t know if the hardened gears would be better, but no complaints.



skcncx said:


> I have yet to use a 4 jaw, nor know how to properly dial in stock for swapping/flipping parts.


It just takes a bit of practice dialing something in and then you can do it fairly quickly.  Look on YouTube for a video by Abom79 on dialing in parts on a 4 jaw, he is wicked fast.  Unless most of what you do is small, the larger 8” chuck would be better.  You can hold a small part in a large chuck (to a point), but you can’t hold a large part in a smaller chuck.  An 8” 4 jaw chuck is a good size for a 12” lathe.



skcncx said:


> I still need to source of bunch of little things, like a ball oiler can for IS68 oils, tool inserts for aluminum and steel, way & gear oil and all those maintenance items to keep it serviced nicely.


I use a standard oil can I got from Tractor Supply for the ball oilers.  I think it cost $5.  For your oils, see if you have a local Napa Auto store, my local store has a good supply of oils and I believe they can also get way oil.  I got mine from McMaster-Carr before I knew to look at Napa, but then you have to pay shipping.


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## skcncx (Aug 1, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I use a standard oil can I got from Tractor Supply for the ball oilers. I think it cost $5. For your oils, see if you have a local Napa Auto store, my local store has a good supply of oils and I believe they can also get way oil. I got mine from McMaster-Carr before I knew to look at Napa, but then you have to pay shipping.


Good to know... I was going to buy an oiler from McMaster-Car... then I read they have "specs" for the oils (likely just viscosity) they are rated for... my head is going to explode with all these specifics .  I'm going to take a moment to understand all the oil stuff with some googling for sure.  I found an old thread from @mksj with some good oil info... I thought the ISO 68 referred to the viscosity, but them PM has gearbox and way oil, both ISO68... and their viscosity rating is 95 and 102 respectively.  At least it's just 2 oils, gear box and way oil for ways and norton drip gear box.  I'll run with what it comes with, but will likely change soon after, if nothing more than to feel good about it and get comfortable with good maintenance.

Sorry for all the thread's off topic musings.


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## mksj (Aug 1, 2022)

You should only need two oils for the 1236T. Way oil ISO68, the ISO is the viscosity index but can vary based on the oil application (operating temperature) and additive packages. Way oil has tackifiers which help the oi stick to the metal and not flow away (i.e. film strength). This oil should be used for all the oilers and also the Norton (open) gearbox and can be used in the carriage. Any ISO68 "Way Oil" is fine. Headstock oil is typically a gear or hydraulic oil for machine NOT motors/transmissions/differentials, etc. Any tractor oil of the proper viscosity is fine, these are often listed as hydraulic oils, but often shared with manual gearbox. The ISO rating recommended for the headstock varies so I would refer to the owners manual. Typically in a headstock I have used ISO32, but PM/QMT seems to use ISO68 for both headstock and enclosed gearboxes, which simplifies oil requirements. If you have enclosed gears I tend to use a straight ISO oil as opposed to a way oil, but like my lathe carriage has a pump to the ways, so I use a way oil in it. Either oil will work fine. Open gearboxes I prefer way oil because it sticks to the gears.

There is no special magic of one brand of oil vs. another, they all lubricate. You do not want any oils that contain extreme pressure additives, you want to change any enclose oil reservoir at least annually due to moisture build up, not because it wears out. People spend way too much time on this topic, the application in a gear head lathe is very basic and doesn't demand much of the oil. Since it is a splash lubrication, the oil needs to splash up into the headstock, coat the gears and get to the bearings, too high a viscosity will add drag and not flow to the bearings well in particular if you are using the machine in colder climates.






						Way Oil, #2 (ISO 68) Quart – Precision Matthews Machinery Co.
					






					www.precisionmatthews.com
				





			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/oil-circ-iso68-gal/


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 1, 2022)

It’s your thread, so you can go off topic all you want!  But, sometimes its better to start a new thread so that more people will see the different topic and comment.

ISO 68 refers to the viscosity, but there is a range, so it won’t necessarily be exactly that.  ISO 68 Way oil is just an ISO 68 oil with tacifiers that make it more sticky than regular oil.  Some people use regular oil and add a tacifier to make way oil, that way you only have one jug of oil on hand.  

You will get some metal particles from the gears when you are breaking it in, and even could get some after that.  You should change the oil at about 10 hours of use and remove the cover to clean all the metal particles from the sump as well as the gutter in the top that directs oil to the bearings.  There will be a significant amount of metal particles in there you want to get out so they don’t make their way into the bearings.  I changed my oil again about 20 hours later and found more metal that needed to be removed, so it could take a while for it to really break in.  It would be a good idea to install a magnet in the bottom of the sump to attract the metal so that it is not getting flung around during use.

For oil, I just used the oil Tractor Supply carries.  Mobil oil is good, but I don’t think there is anything special about it that justifies the higher price for a simple application like this.  If this was an expensive machine running 24/7, then the cost of the oil is insignificant, but for a hobby lathe, I don’t think you will see any difference between the different brands.


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## skcncx (Aug 1, 2022)

mksj said:


> You should only need two oils for the 1236T. Way oil ISO68, the ISO is the viscosity index but can vary based on the oil application (operating temperature) and additive packages. Way oil has tackifiers which help the oi stick to the metal and not flow away (i.e. film strength). This oil should be used for all the oilers and also the Norton (open) gearbox and can be used in the carriage. Any ISO68 "Way Oil" is fine. Headstock oil is typically a gear or hydraulic oil for machine NOT motors/transmissions/differentials, etc. Any tractor oil of the proper viscosity is fine, these are often listed as hydraulic oils, but often shared with manual gearbox. The ISO rating recommended for the headstock varies so I would refer to the owners manual. Typically in a headstock I have used ISO32, but PM/QMT seems to use ISO68 for both headstock and enclosed gearboxes, which simplifies oil requirements. If you have enclosed gears I tend to use a straight ISO oil as opposed to a way oil, but like my lathe carriage has a pump to the ways, so I use a way oil in it. Either oil will work fine. Open gearboxes I prefer way oil because it sticks to the gears.
> 
> There is no special magic of one brand of oil vs. another, they all lubricate. You do not want any oils that contain extreme pressure additives, you want to change any enclose oil reservoir at least annually due to moisture build up, not because it wears out. People spend way too much time on this topic, the application in a gear head lathe is very basic and doesn't demand much of the oil. Since it is a splash lubrication, the oil needs to splash up into the headstock, coat the gears and get to the bearings, too high a viscosity will add drag and not flow to the bearings well in particular if you are using the machine in colder climates.
> 
> ...


Yep, Just two oils listed in manual.  Sounds like for the carriage feed gear box, you can use way oil or the Vacuoline 1409 I've seen referenced, a little more tacky, but since it also needs to drip down, maybe the circulating oil will drip better.  That drip system and how much you fill it with seems like there's not much needed, the drop mat/pan just needs to be soaked well.

Sounds like 4-5 quarts of PM's IS068 circulating oil and 1 quart of way oil, I should be good for a long time.... I just find it very interesting to understand all this... in the future, I'd rather just run to my local store to get it.


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## skcncx (Aug 1, 2022)

mksj said:


> If you have enclosed gears I tend to use a straight ISO oil as opposed to a way oil, but like my lathe carriage has a pump to the ways, so I use a way oil in it. Either oil will work fine. Open gearboxes I prefer way oil because it sticks to the gears.


That's pretty slick, didn't realize the carriage/apron gear box would automatically oil your ways (for lathes that have that)..., not a feature on the 1236T. I just assume I should drip some way oil on the ways every so often or when it looks dry.


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