# Should I take a machining course...or not?



## great white (Dec 15, 2017)

Yeah, this is pertty much an opinion question with no right or wrong answer. I also recognize that the only one who can really answer that question is me. But I don't mind bouncing it around for discussion.

First, let me give you some background:

I'm retiring RCAF (28 years).
There is a "re-education" program where they will pay for two years of training, up to $25,000. You have to successfully complete your training, or they may try to recover their costs. It's a "use it or loose it" benefit and it has to be done in the first two years after release.
There's a local college (NSCC- https://www.nscc.ca/learning_programs/programs/plandescr.aspx?prg=MACSD&pln=MACSHOPDIP ) that offers a machining course and it's almost always open to students up until the last month or two of enrollment. It's just not a big draw around here, unlike welding, auto mechanic, etc.
The course has two "work periods" that is built into the program (ie: you have to source an employer in the field and record your work experience).
I'm 52 and I'll be 54 when I'm released from military service. I'll be 56 when finishing schooling.
There's not a big demand for machinists around these parts. Some, but not a lot.  Mostly welding/machine shop that deal mainly with welding (both in shop and off the truck).

So, I'm actually not really concerned with reaching journeyman status. I would be over 60 when that happened, by the requirements of the provincial apprenticeship program.

I have to check on the "work experience" portion of the course, but I'm not really interested in doing that either. I'm looking to semi-retire and possibly work part time.

40Hrs a week is not what I'm looking for, especially with my "issues" and my pension (nothing extravagant, but more than enough to be livable).

I've always enjoyed working with metal and am usually quite proud of myself when I turn out something on my old Atlas TH42. Nothing complicated to be sure, I wouldn't even bring myself up to an "amateur" status.

So I'd really be taking the course to gain some skills at something I enjoy and maybe do a few small projects for cash on the side. Simple stuff like motorcycle foot-pegs, wheel spacers, axles, etc.

I don't have to reach journeyman status for the training, I just have to graduate from the course.

So opinion time:

Am I wasting my time taking the course (assuming I can complete it)?

2 years of 8 hours a day--+ schooling is a fairly large commitment, especially when I don't have intentions to do it full time or even get my journeyman status. I don't really need to make money, but some "supplemental" income would be nice. Just a couple bucks here and there.

When I think about it, I guess I'm really mostly looking for something to occupy some time and a little extra cash flow.


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## Uncle Buck (Dec 15, 2017)

I think it sounds like a great idea, but you are the guy that will have to dedicate himself to succeeding in the course. Too me it sounds like a great plan, but again that is me. Everyone has to do their own thing right?


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## rambin (Dec 15, 2017)

sounds like you need to look up mrpete222 on youtube he pretty well covers all aspects of machine shop thru his  videos'.... 2 yrs in school don't sound like much fun at that age just to learn to tinker on a few small projects. he also offers paid online video courses for a few machines atlas/southbend lathes and Bridgeport mill.... ive not seen theses but from his free videos I can imagine they are pretty good


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## EmilioG (Dec 15, 2017)

I've looked at machining course in my area and decided not to enroll.  The courses are very structured and they were including things that I wasn't interested in learning.   I'm sure that you will learn something, but I believe that you can learn and teach yourself much more and what you want to learn, at your pace, by actually using your own machines and tools.  There is so much information on the web today.  Through trial and error, you can teach yourself quite a bit, on your time, on projects that you enjoy.  I would put the school money towards books, tools and machines. This is my opinion only.  I do stress safety and following good practice of course.


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## ddickey (Dec 15, 2017)

Other than the government paying for your school are you being paid during those two years?
You're still working full time during the two years?


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## Alittlerusty (Dec 15, 2017)

I'm wondering how much of the course is dedicated towards cnc machining as opposed to manual machining. Learning your way around machines safely is the most important, but with common sense and help from others like the people here it can be done without schooling. If you intend to get a job machining then yes take the courses but a lot of hobbyist just learn as they go and build their skills and confidence over time. There's a lot of good info available at your fingertips. Remember the only stupid question is the one u didn't ask.


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## ddickey (Dec 15, 2017)

Plus the generals you'll be required to take are not very enjoyable.


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## David S (Dec 15, 2017)

Great White I think some of the options depends on what kind of shops are in your area.  From a machining perspective, in some areas there are job shops that repair industrial equipment, etc...one off jobs.  A lot of these are not worth setting up CNC equipment, and in a lot of cases depend on clever ideas to salvage broken stuff.

If you think that you would like to get more training so that you can do stuff from home then you will need appropriate equipment in the home shop.  I know you have an Atlas 42", but you will no doubt need a mill.  And all this depends again on the size of projects you would be willing to take on, and more important the size of projects that most folks would like.

As has been mentioned there are many youtube videos from very experienced folks that are willing to share their experience.  I have learned a lot.

David


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## PHPaul (Dec 15, 2017)

That's a heckuva commitment for something you plan to do as a hobby/moonlighting gig.  Also a lot of potential liability if you don't complete it.

T'was me, I'd pass.

I'd be more interested in a few week long Adult Education class.  In fact, now that I think of it, I should look around and see what's out there.


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## markba633csi (Dec 15, 2017)

I'd pass on it too, especially if you are financially comfortable now.  Spend the time in your Man-Cave making neat stuff! (and drinking beer, but not at the same time) 
Mark


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## mikey (Dec 15, 2017)

If someone told me that they would pay $25K to send me to school to learn something, I would grab it. I would go and learn something that made me happy, regardless of whether it would make me money down the road. Cooking school, business classes, machining, or whatever floats your boat. I figure that when you retire, you should spend what time you have left doing things that make you happy and help you grow. You did what you had to do all your life - now go do what you want to do.


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## francist (Dec 15, 2017)

Do I think you should take a machining course? Yeah, absolutely, I think you would really enjoy two or three evenings a weeks at a community college for a couple months. I love education and learning.

Do I think you should sign up for this two-year, full-time training commitment for something you don't want to pursue as a career anyway? No, I'm afraid I don't.

I'm hearing you're not keen on the 40 hours per week, not really interested in finding an employer for the work experience aspect, have little desire or expectation to follow it up by working in the trade afterwards, and there's also some concerns about whether you're up to completing it anyway due to some, as you say, "issues". The only thing that seems to be on the Pro side of the argument is that someone else would pay for it. Kind of like buying a new car that doesn't fit your lifestyle, you hate the colour, and is too big for the garage. But it's on sale.

Nope, I don't see it. I think you can fill the niche for finding something interesting to do in a much more satisfying way, on your own time, and at your own speed. Having said that, I think if you did sign up for it you would complete it and you would do well. Thirty years in the Air Force will have taught you how to do that, but I don't know that you'd enjoy it.

-frank


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## ericc (Dec 15, 2017)

This is a very interesting question.  First, are you sure that this is a full 2 year 40 hour per week commitment?  Usually there are some gaps in the day that you can grab a breather.  For example, our local community college requires about ten plus 5 unit courses, which are 5 hours per week plus lab.  If you take 3 courses (a typical load), you will get done in about two years.  There is no tuition, but there is a $31 per unit fee, which means about $1500 total expenditure.  You will also have to pay about $4 per day parking, but if you take the bus it will be a lot less.  My friends tell me that it is not worth applying to any programs to try to get these fees reimbursed, since they are so little.  I know some folks who are super busy after they retire with home improvement, volunteering, classes, art, etc., but I know some who suddenly don't know what to do.  You have to take a good look at yourself and decide whether you need the structure.


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## great white (Dec 15, 2017)

Rather than quote everyone, i'll try to answer in a single post.

I've used "tubalcain" videos quite a bit to make things. Good stuff. BUt no one will recognize that if I want to work pat time somewhere as "just" and apprentice.

Money has to be spent on education. No option to spend it anywhere else except required materials (ie: books, materials, etc) for the course.

About half the course is CNC. Pretty sure it's not something I will use, but you never know. There is several CNC shops in the province, just not local to where I will be "retiring". Now, will I put a cnc machine in my shop and contract out? Unlikely due to the high buy in prices, but you never know...

TH42 is just my "banging around" machine. Sure, I've done the usual things like QCTP, DRO and I've converted to a Baldor DC motor with speed control, but I'd probably want something a little better (ie: accurate, modern, etc) if I planned to make things for sale or production runs. What that might be I have no idea at this point. I can turn out pretty good stuff (and small0 with the Atlas, but it's a lot of setup and rechecking to make sure it's keeping those settings. It's also not very high on the "rigidity scale" or conducive to quickly moving from one operation to another.

"general" parts are mostly writing and communication. Not a problem. University educated. I'm also at a "senior level' in the military so I spend most of my days writing situation papers, technical papers, instructing, delivering briefings and conferences, etc. I'm thinking the basic stuff they would want me to do would almost be a "vacation"....lol! Whimmis, CPR, etc is all in there too. BUt I have an annual qualification I have to keep up in my current military job so it's nothing new and I may be given equivelency.

I would be successful at the curriculum. Tool safety (IE: lockout procedures, usage, etc) isn't an issue, been doing it my whole military career. I'm not a machinist, but I'm in aerospace. Lots of crossover. We have machinists on base and I deal with them regularly. Other than actually doing the fabricating, I speak their language. Although on a far simpler level than they could probably go.

Pay isn't an issue. Our release program tops your pension up to 90% of you pre-release wage for two years. It may continue longer than that depending on the circumstances of the individual (IE: disabled due to service, injured, etc). wife is also still in the military and has intentions to be for another 5-10 years. Between her income and my pension and benefits, there's not a lot of concern for money. It's going to be a lifestyle change for sure, but noting that is going to kill us of have us eating cat food.

Not to brag, but we're actually building this right now:

View attachment 249939


View attachment 249940


That's our retirement home. 

I thought about setting up a small business in the detached, but zoning and covenants doesn't allow for it. So under the table it would have to be and only small stuff.

My pension amount is covering the mortgage. That's before the 90% top up. Then there's the wife's income and she has a similar pension package when she's done. Pretty much everything else we have is paid off, or will be by the time I woudl be getting out.

So, we're not "flush" for money, but I'm kind of in the drivers seat here......

No, passing the course isn't an issue. Other than the forcing myself back into a school like schedule. I'm sure there will be "withdrawals" at first, but I'l lget used to it like everything else in life. Dealing with 18-20 year old's might be a little bit of a stretch though.....LOL!

What is an issue is that "work term" stuff. I doubt many businesses want to hire a summer work experience student that's already 54/55 years old and there's the "I'm not really interested in that part" thing.  I need to call the college and get some more info on that part of the course....


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## great white (Dec 15, 2017)

ericc said:


> This is a very interesting question.  First, are you sure that this is a full 2 year 40 hour per week commitment?  Usually there are some gaps in the day that you can grab a breather.  For example, our local community college requires about ten plus 5 unit courses, which are 5 hours per week plus lab.  If you take 3 courses (a typical load), you will get done in about two years.  There is no tuition, but there is a $31 per unit fee, which means about $1500 total expenditure.  You will also have to pay about $4 per day parking, but if you take the bus it will be a lot less.  My friends tell me that it is not worth applying to any programs to try to get these fees reimbursed, since they are so little.  I know some folks who are super busy after they retire with home improvement, volunteering, classes, art, etc., but I know some who suddenly don't know what to do.  You have to take a good look at yourself and decide whether you need the structure.



Any and all fees are covered in my package  up to the 25K cap. Tuition, books, materials, student fees, parking fees, etc. Accommodations if I need them (won't, the school is only going to be about 10 minute -or less- drive) and even fuel travel costs if I have any of significance. that stuff is not part of the 25K cap. It's a pretty sweet deal, except for what you have to go through in order to qualify.

Lets just say my military career was "pretty hard" on me. Both physically and mentally.  I am/was Search and Rescue:




I've got a couple physical limitations and a couple monkeys on my back....and lets just leave it at that.



So I don't have a big issue using the benefits they are offering to me. But it is a "use it or loose it" benefit. Take  course or don't. Machining, aricraft mechanic, baker, tourism specialist, or whatever. After two years the benefit is no longer available....


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## savarin (Dec 15, 2017)

Is it worth discussing your real world experience with the training institution to see what you can get equivalency for?
You may not have to do all the subjects and so shorten the course considerably.
I have found that I have absolutely no impulse to go back to education or work in a full time capacity so I teach my self what I want when I need it.
If I am scrupulously honest as an ex educator I believe its fair to say a lot of courses are padded out with "nice to know but not essential" stuff.
Your course may be different but I doubt it.


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## Glenn Brooks (Dec 16, 2017)

One thing you could do is go interview the instructors and tour the school.  Look at what the students are doing, check out the equipment they use, etc.  if you get excited about participating - go for it!  If it seems to much, look for a part time night class that gives you the essential skills you really want to learn.  I went the night school route for my personal edification and am very happy I did. If I was going to do ANY machine work for pay, I would certainly take the two year program. When you charge people for your work - you will want to deliver high quality parts, which means delivering excellent accuracy, and a very professional, mirror like finish.  I think you need the schooling to prepare for that level of work.

Around the Seattle area, there are a number of small, one person job shops that take on projects the CNC people don’t want to mess with.  Usually parts runs under 50 pieces, one off jobs, subbing speciality manufacturing jobs, R and D, etc.  lot of these shops still use Manual machines, but are inevitably going to small CNC set ups - for accuracy, repeatability, and fine finish.  

If you find you have an interest in CNC work, maybe the two year problem would be just right.  If not, you will probably come away from a shop tour with definite ideas about going in a different direction. 

BTW, I took the night class route when I was 66.  If you are in your 50’s you got nothing to worry about! Plenty of time to go to school and figure it all out. 

Good luck! 
Glenn


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## ACHiPo (Dec 16, 2017)

great white said:


> Rather than quote everyone, i'll try to answer in a single post.
> 
> I've used "tubalcain" videos quite a bit to make things. Good stuff. BUt no one will recognize that if I want to work pat time somewhere as "just" and apprentice.
> 
> ...


If you’re looking for a little extra income and not just a hobby, learning CAD and CNC (then setting up your own shop) is probably going to net you a lot more than working for somebody as a machinist.  I’m with Mikey to take advantage of the stipend and learn what will float your boat!  Used 5-axis Haas mills can be had for pennies on the dollars, or you could just pick up a Tormach to run 24-7.  Even with your remote location you can have materials delivered and ship out finished products.  A course in website design might be helpful, too.


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## projectnut (Dec 16, 2017)

Before committing to a 2 year course check with your local technical college to see if they offer single semester "hobbyists" classes in the evening.  If they do it would be a great way to learn and decide whether you want to commit to an additional 2 years.  When I was looking to add a surface grinder to the shop a couple vendors suggested I look into an evening class at our local technical college.  The college had over a dozen different machines (both manual and automatic) that could be used in the evenings as part of a non credit program.

I signed up for one of the classes and was able to "test drive" each of the machines.  There were a number of other "students" taking the class to see if they would be interested in pursuing a career as machinists.  A number of them went on to school, while others decided it wasn't their cup of tea.  A little real world education and experience may help you decide whether or not it will be something you'll be interested in long term.


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## great white (Dec 16, 2017)

Good  points all, but the details of my training allowance specify:

"Any training provided will focus on the acquisition of a license, certification or diploma from a recognized educational institution."

So night classes are out, unless it meet the above criteria. For machining at NSCC, it's the full course or nothing.

Setting up a CNC machine to do small production run stuff sounds interesting. Piecemeal work as it comes along or as I want it sounds just about right.

Can't see a CNC machine being cheap though, at least not around here. It's not that common a thing, although there are some bigger shops in teh main city, about 2 hrs from me. Then there's also the issue that is "penny's on the dollar" comes out to 5 or ten grand, well....that's not a sum I have  just lying about. It woudl have to be a stright out buy too, my home is not zoned for home businesses so I can't register and write the costs off on taxes. This has to be under the table stuff if I make any bucks at it. That probably kicks any businesses looking for machined stuff out of the running. I'm thinking I'd have to get on with one of the local shops and do a "work from home" type of deal. Can't see them wanting an "apprentice" working on his own in his own garage, even if it's CNC. Seems to be lots of problems with the idea of making any money  at home without being registered as a business and at apprentice level qualifications.

So I wouldn't be reaching journeyman status. Does it really matter if I never get past apprentice accreditation or not  for piecemeal work? Probably if I'm dealing with "industry" or businesses it would matter. I'd likely never get my Red Seal either, but I don't ever plan to move out of province so I'm not sure if that matters or not.....


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