# Bringing a PM-1054TV-3PH into my Garage



## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

The good news is that I was able to cash out all of my remaining vacation weeks to be able to afford a big new milling machine. The bad news is that I have no time off except for half-day Saturdays & all day Sundays to get the new machine set up.

I am using a rigging company, Precision Crane in Windsor, CA. I used them for my PM-1660TL delivery. Their service was impeccable, & it cost me about $1,650. I had the 4,000 pound lathe sent directly to Precision Crane.

Precision Matthews will once again send the new machine directly to Precision Crane.


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

I need to figure out:

(1) The footprint of a PM-1054TV. It will have an x-axis power feed. Obviously, I want to allow the table to travel it’s full length.

(2) How much space between the left side of the table & the garage wall? Once the riggers leave, I will not be able to move the 3,300 pound milling machine.

(3) How much workspace between machines? Both of the machines (lathe & mill) face the street; I like to watch the people pass by on the sidewalk while I am standing at a machine. The lathe is nearest to the street. Is 36” a good amount of workspace for a lathe operator? The *rear* of the mill will be *behind* the operator of the lathe.

(4) I will need the rigging company to move my lathe out of the way to get the milling machine into position. I don’t have a question here. I just wonder if there will be any issue here. I imagine that they will do this with a pallet jack. When they put the lathe in place, they used a forklift; if they used a forklift again, they would probably have to take the lathe down the driveway and temporarily set it on the street while they put the mill in place. Just what I want: my lathe sitting in the street for an hour or so.

(5) Once the milling machine is in position, I need to rotate the head up; this is because the head is rotated all the way down (during shipping) to minimize the height of the pallet. Is this something that I can do by hand?


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

I don’t understand how the rigging company is going to move the milling machine from setting on the pallet to it’s position on the garage floor. The only way that I can see them doing this is with a lowboy forklift or an engine hoist.

At this point, do they lift the milling machine by the table (as with a lowboy forklift)? Or did they wrap a strap around the top (as with an engine hoist)?


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

Anything else I need to know about bringing in a big new milling machine? E.g. spindle oil, perils & pitfalls?

I already have a 220V, 3-phase 10HP RPC with a dedicated 20A circuit breaker for the milling machine power cord. The circuit breaker for that outlet is 40A. This is the circuit that I use for the 5HP lathe (the lathe has a dedicated 30A circuit breaker in the RPC).


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## matthewsx (Apr 27, 2022)

Best to discuss these questions with your rigging company since any suggestions, even from experienced folks online isn't likely to be helpful for them.


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## Aukai (Apr 27, 2022)

My experience with my 9 X 50 was the machine was put in place where I wanted it, and I had to get it off of the pallet. While they had it on the pallet jack to move it, I trimmed the pallet to it's smallest size, and once in place I was responsible to get it on the ground. I will add that on the ground is too short for me and I will have to raise it 6" to be comfortable. You might want to get it placed correctly with the riggers, and if they can levitate the mill to set your height also, or leave it on the pallet so it's easier to transfer the risers in. I got mine on the ground, now I have to get it 6-7" up again to put the leveling feet, and 6 X 6 under it.


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

Aukai said:


> My experience with my 9 X 50 was the machine was put in place where I wanted it, and I had to get it off of the pallet. While they had it on the pallet jack to move it, I trimmed the pallet to it's smallest size, and once in place I was responsible to get it on the ground. I will add that on the ground is too short for me and I will have to raise it 6" to be comfortable. You might want to get it placed correctly with the riggers, and if they can levitate the mill to set your height also, or leave it on the pallet so it's easier to transfer the risers in. I got mine on the ground, now I have to get it 6-7" up again to put the leveling feet, and 6 X 6 under it.


I am surprised that the machine needs to be raised. Are you particularly tall?


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## Eyerelief (Apr 27, 2022)

Erik,  you might want to look into some skates.  I built a set of four.  I use them on my lathe, 3300 pounds, and my mill, 3000 pounds.  Using skates and a toe jack (+/- $80 on ebay) moving the machines around is doable.  For a fabricator such as yourself, both skates and a toe jack are worthwhile projects.


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## JRaut (Apr 27, 2022)

For the mill, you could just rent an engine hoist from any rental place near you. Shouldn't cost more than about $100 a day, max I'd guess. Or find a friend with one and kick him over a 6-pack.

I've no problem moving my Bridgeport around by myself with the help of an engine hoist. There's a threaded hole right in the middle of the ram, into which I screw in an eye bolt. Hook it up to the hoist there and roll it wherever you need.

Only need to lift it an inch or so off the ground to move it, so there's no real risk in dropping it or anything like that.


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## jwmelvin (Apr 27, 2022)

I’ve moved my mill by using a pet bar to get it up on some pipe pieces as rollers, at which point it’s very easy to move around. 

I would not lift a mill by its table.


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## Aukai (Apr 27, 2022)

I'm 6'2"


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 27, 2022)

I had a rigging company take care of placement of my ACRA LCM-42.  Like you, I had it delivered to their place of business.  It came on a pallet and the rigging company used their forklift to remove it from the delivery truck.  They did all their lifting from the pallet and never even touched the machine beyond strapping it down.  When it got to my shop they used the fork lift and drove it inside and left.  I dissected the pallet out from underneath the mill and used a pallet jack to push it into position.  I'm 6' 4" tall so raising mine up was a priority.


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## Winegrower (Apr 27, 2022)

I also needed extra height for my mill, so now it's on 4x4 blocks with a 4" column riser.   I use a mill vise with a swivel table, and now the normal working height is around belly to chest high...just right.   I'm 6'3" and can still reach the drawbar.    I also mounted the bandsaw on 6x6 blocks and the lathe on 4x4...it could even be higher though.


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## rabler (Apr 27, 2022)

I have moved both a mill and a lathe around that each weighed in over 8000 lbs, using a pry bar, skates, and a toe jack.  Well worth having on hand as rearranging machines seems to be inevitable.


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## Just for fun (Apr 27, 2022)

I have a hoist that I used to take the mill off of the pallet, I then placed on the angle iron with wheels.  I had to use a toe jack to lift it up and turn the wheels.  Once in place I replaced the wheels with the feet that I bought from PM.  I guess I didn't take photos while moving it.  Here is what I have.

Tim


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

Super helpful tips, everybody. I really appreciate the responses. I will have some time on the weekend to make a meaningful contribution to this discussion.

I am leery of pestering the rigging company because their hourly rate is so high. I also try to keep my calls and emails to Precision Matthews to a minimum, as I have a tendency to make a pest of myself.

It sounds like I should be equipped to move the machines around myself.


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

This article shows how to use a forklift placed under the ram to lift a vertical milling machine.






						Simple Steps to Move a Vertical Milling Machine | A&A Machinery
					

There are many ways to move machines such as a mill, but only a few ways to do it correctly and safely. Use these simple steps to move your vertical milling machine safely and securely.




					www.aamachinery.com
				




Here is a photo with an engine hoist lifting a knee mill by an eye hook. I sure wish I knew the size of the eye hook that would screw into a PM-1054. I’ll bet that it is metric!


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

Possible eye bolt for Bridgeport:






						Ttc Lifting Gear 15219 3/4" BSW D/FORGED DYNAMO EYEBOLT C/W CERT. 15219 | Cromwell Tools
					

Manufactured from drop forged high tensile steel commercial pattern.  15219 | Cromwell Tools




					www.cromwell.co.uk


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

Knee mill on a pallet jack:


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## erikmannie (Apr 27, 2022)

Self-explanatory drawings:


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## erikmannie (Apr 28, 2022)

Here are some pictures of a skate, & knee mills & engine lathes on skates:


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## akjeff (Apr 28, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> Self-explanatory drawings:
> 
> View attachment 405370
> 
> ...


The last drawing makes me cringe, and amazed that it comes from factory instructions. One wrong move and the sling under the mounting boss for a slotting attachment would slip right off the end. I'd at least put a stout pin through the hole to trap the sling. Kind of a sharp edge in that area as well. If you use a lift eye threaded into the top of the ram, shoot for 1-1/2 diameters of thread engagement, and use a good quality lift eye, not some made in PRC POS. Spending the extra $$ on a USA made Crosby is cheap insurance. Do yourself a favor and use purpose built slings, and not rope. Those drawings look like they came from "the good old days"!


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## erikmannie (Apr 28, 2022)

akjeff said:


> The last drawing makes me cringe, and amazed that it comes from factory instructions. One wrong move and the sling under the mounting boss for a slotting attachment would slip right off the end. I'd at least put a stout pin through the hole to trap the sling. Kind of a sharp edge in that area as well. If you use a lift eye threaded into the top of the ram, shoot for 1-1/2 diameters of thread engagement, and use a good quality lift eye, not some made in PRC POS. Spending the extra $$ on a USA made Crosby is cheap insurance. Do yourself a favor and use purpose built slings, and not rope. Those drawings look like they came from "the good old days"!


So maybe it is not the best idea to hang a $15K machine by a $7 eye bolt?









						3/4"
					

Online store for Cable Railing, Rigging, Marine, & Stainless Steel Hardware



					www.e-rigging.com
				









A lot of the descriptions specified to have the straps bolted together.

I am leaning toward investing in a toe jack + skates. For what I am paying the riggers, I could send them away as soon as possible (stop the clock!), & buy a toe jack + skates with the money I would have paid the rigging crew.

When I rent an engine hoist, it takes me half the day because I have to:

(1) borrow my Dad’s truck with a tow hitch,
(2) rent an engine hoist as well as a trailer (I don’t want to take the time to dissemble to transport to my house, assemble to do the job, dissemble to transport back to the rental yard, & assemble to return the engine hoist),
(3) bring my Dad his truck back.


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## erikmannie (Apr 28, 2022)

Do you guys think that I can use a toe jack + skates to do the following?

(1) get the knee mill from the pallet (I will cut the pallet down) to the leveling pads/riser structure, &

(2) move the 4,400 pound engine lathe across a 2 car garage (as I posted earlier, I need to completely move the engine lathe out of the way for the knee mill to come in).

I think that I will have the rigging crew put the engine lathe back in place. I would hate to lose control of the lathe & have it roll down the driveway (it goes at the far end of the garage, only 12” from the downsloped driveway). I would not be able to afford to repair it.


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## erikmannie (Apr 28, 2022)

I also have a 170 pound milling vise that I need to lift up to the mill table after I remove the “cosmoline” from the table. I was hoping to do this with 2 people, but I actually don’t have anybody who would help me.

I have a toolpost crane that I could use to lift the heavy vise up to my welding table (which is on wheels). I could then wheel the welding table over to the mill table. Moving the vise 2’ across surfaces of equal height would be an easy task.

Sky Hook sells a mill vise hook lifting aid:


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## Just for fun (Apr 28, 2022)

Well,  You definitely have a big job in front of you.  You probably mentioned it at some point but do you have room for a gantry crane in your shop? 

Do you have any help with this move or are you relaying only on the rigging crew?

With at least one other person a toe jack and skates you should be able to move your mill and lathe around.  That my option anyway.

I can't say that I have ever needed a toe jack before, but I wanted to be as safe as possible when I moved my mill.  I will probably use it again later to lift it and add some sort of spacer under it to raise it up 4 or 5".


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## JimDawson (Apr 28, 2022)

This is the way I normally move them





or


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## erikmannie (Apr 28, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> Well,  You definitely have a big job in front of you.  You probably mentioned it at some point but do you have room for a gantry crane in your shop?
> 
> Do you have any help with this move or are you relaying only on the rigging crew?
> 
> ...


No room for a gantry crane. Also, I don’t have help. My Dad is turning 80 years old, & my one son & two grandsons in the house are *very* reluctant to help; the young people in the house are very much doing their own thing.

I am so selective about my friends that I have none in my town.

With that said, the rigging crew is great!


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## erikmannie (Apr 28, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> This is the way I normally move them
> View attachment 405319
> 
> 
> ...


What a humongous forklift!


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## Just for fun (Apr 28, 2022)

It sounds like it might be worth it then just to pay the bucks and have professional help!


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## Aukai (Apr 28, 2022)

Mine came with,the eye bolt, maybe yours too?


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## jwmelvin (Apr 28, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> So maybe it is not the best idea to hang a $15K machine by a $7 eye bolt?



The load for lifting a mill is quite low compared to the limit for a screw of this size; I wouldn’t hesitate to use that eye screw. If one were lifting somewhere close to the screw’s supposed limit, then sure, being particular might make sense. 

I think you’re far more likely to pull poorly formed threads or a chunk of casting out of the ram than have the screw fail.


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## mmcmdl (Apr 28, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> This is the way I normally move them
> View attachment 405319
> 
> 
> ...


That's the ticket !   As far as moving , the machines are easily slid with the help of the Kubota . The 17" lathe was slid to the front of the garage and then cranked up on a trailer with a winch .


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## Eyerelief (Apr 28, 2022)

Erik,  Here is a picture of the 4 skates I built last year in various stages of assembly.  You wouldn't need the ball bearing and races to get the job done, just some plate, axle material and some bearings.  These axles were .750, turned down to a snug fit inside the bearings.  All the other steel is half inch.  To tease my son, who helped get my lathe home, I sent him a video of his momma pushing the Victor 1640 across the garage by herself without out any effort (he is a competitive weight lifter, she is 5'3" 120 pounds dripping wet).





At the time that I brought the lathe and mill home, I didn't own a toe jack.  I just recently made one.  My criteria was to make sure I had enough lift to clear a 4x4 piece of lumber.  This 4 ton jack does it no problem.  







These items store easily and its comforting to know that if I need to move any big pieces, I don't have to spend a couple days trying to figure out in my head how to do it.


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## Stonebriar (Apr 28, 2022)

My PM mill came with the eye bolt.  Once on the floor the mill can easily moved around with a pinch bar, inches at a time. Just don't be in a rush.


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## Just for fun (Apr 28, 2022)

@Eyerelief , those skates look really nice.   
Looks like just the thing for Erik!


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## Eyerelief (Apr 28, 2022)

@Just for fun  , Thanks, they sure take the work out things.  I have a painted concrete floor that prefers the smooth bearings as well.  They leave no marks as long as you don't try and turn too abruptly.


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## Aaron_W (Apr 28, 2022)

I would look into a permanent pallet or other raised footing that will allow the use of a pallet jack, then have the riggers place the mill on it. 

It doesn't really make sense to me to pay riggers to only do half the job. I'd actually be more comfortable moving the mill into place with a forklift, than getting it off the pallet.

As far as the lathe goes, I'd definitely have them put it back in place. Again you are paying a substantial amount of money, so why do that for only part of the job?

I've moved everything myself, but my "big" machines only weigh 500-900lbs complete, and broke down into smaller pieces.


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## matthewsx (Apr 28, 2022)

And, I've had some great members here travel many miles to help when I put out the call. There's nothing like having someone who knows how to do the job and has some tools come and help.

That said, if you really want to do it yourself figuring out what risers you'll want underneath it and making them ahead of time will get you going safely and with minimum hassle. You've had some time to use your lathe, is it the right height for you? How tall do you want your mill to be? This is the perfect time to fabricate risers that will allow you to get a pallet jack underneath for moving your big machines. There was a recent thread where someone did this and it worked out great, look under the Wells-Index section I think.

Riggers charge by the hour so if you have your risers built it'll be easy for them to lift both your machines and let you bolt them up, shouldn't be a problem for them to hold the mill up with a forklift while you remove the pallet and bolt on risers. Then all you need is for them to use a pallet jack to put them in place. You should be able to rent one locally for when you need to move stuff around in the future.

John


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## erikmannie (Apr 29, 2022)

Eyerelief said:


> Erik,  Here is a picture of the 4 skates I built last year in various stages of assembly.  You wouldn't need the ball bearing and races to get the job done, just some plate, axle material and some bearings.  These axles were .750, turned down to a snug fit inside the bearings.  All the other steel is half inch.  To tease my son, who helped get my lathe home, I sent him a video of his momma pushing the Victor 1640 across the garage by herself without out any effort (he is a competitive weight lifter, she is 5'3" 120 pounds dripping wet).
> View attachment 405396
> 
> At the time that I brought the lathe and mill home, I didn't own a toe jack.  I just recently made one.  My criteria was to make sure I had enough lift to clear a 4x4 piece of lumber.  This 4 ton jack does it no problem.
> ...


I am pretty sure that I am going to end up doing exactly both of those as a future project!


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## erikmannie (Apr 29, 2022)

Here is a  video of a guy using a pry bar to move a knee mill by himself.

Start at the 11:33 mark:






As a bonus, you can watch some of the *huge* (like *epic* huge (maybe 1/4”)) gaps that he welds earlier in the video.


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## erikmannie (Apr 29, 2022)

It sucks that I am under pressure in that (1) I have to take a day off of work without pay to receive the knee mill and watch/guide the riggers, & (2) the rigging crew charges about $400/hour while they are on scene.

I have to balance this high hourly rate versus taking my best guess *exactly* where (and how high) to put the mill. By the way, I bought the Precision Matthews leveling pads (see link & photos).

I have to think that after using the milling machine for a while, I will want to make some adjustment in location and/or height.

All of this being the case, the first location and height will be my best educated guess, and I can make adjustments later after I make some skates and a toe jack.



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/levelingpads/


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## Firstram (Apr 29, 2022)

When will it be delivered? You could rent a drop deck trailer and pick it up from the shipping depot. Moving equipment can be intimidating but it's not really that hard. 

Make some skates and rotate your lathe 90°.  Slide mill pallet off the trailer to the ground, unpack the mill and slide it back onto the elevated (blocked) trailer. Move the trash, reposition the trailer and slide the mill off. 

You only need to buy a few 2x4's, some plywood and a come along. You already have the equipment to make a large pry bar and some simple skates. Skates aren't even necessary, use pipe or solid stock that you can turn into cool things down the road!


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## erikmannie (Apr 29, 2022)

I am making progress. I bought this to help get the 8” vise up on the table:


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## erikmannie (Apr 29, 2022)

Firstram said:


> When will it be delivered? You could rent a drop deck trailer and pick it up from the shipping depot. Moving equipment can be intimidating but it's not really that hard.
> 
> Make some skates and rotate your lathe 90°.  Slide mill pallet off the trailer to the ground, unpack the mill and slide it back onto the elevated (blocked) trailer. Move the trash, reposition the trailer and slide the mill off.
> 
> You only need to buy a few 2x4's, some plywood and a come along. You already have the equipment to make a large pry bar and some simple skates. Skates aren't even necessary, use pipe or solid stock that you can turn into cool things down the road!


Mid- to late- May. Thanks for the info.


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## Just for fun (Apr 29, 2022)

To me there was quite a bit of work from the time the mill is unloaded from the truck to the point I was ready to move it into place, especially paying someone $400 an hour.  Does the rigging crew charge travel time?  

I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to have them unload the mill and hit the road.  Give you a chance to uncreate it and get you mind wrapped around moving it into place.

With all the help here on the forum maybe you won't need the rigging crew to come back.

I know I was stressed before I received my mill.  After it was here, I came up with a way to move it relatively stress free.  I had my wife to help though, and she is a great help.


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## Tipton1965 (Apr 29, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> To me there was quite a bit of work from the time the mill is unloaded from the truck to the point I was ready to move it into place, especially paying someone $400 an hour.  Does the rigging crew charge travel time?
> 
> I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to have them unload the mill and hit the road.  Give you a chance to uncreate it and get you mind wrapped around moving it into place.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I did with the riggers I used.  They unloaded the machine in my shop and left.  They charged me $400.00 out the door.  And as you stated that gave me time to figure out a plan that didn't cost me by the hour.


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## jddevinn (Apr 29, 2022)

Mine was delivered with the eye bolt installed as well.

Note that mills are extremely front heavy.  You will need to clean the ways and adjust so that the center of mass is beneath the eye bolt if you lift using that method.  I wouldn't want to pay the rigging crew to wait around while I uncrated and cleaned.


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## Aukai (Apr 29, 2022)

Once mine came off of the truck we cut the pallet down to minimum size, and used a pallet jack to set it where it was going to stay. There was enough of a lip front and back that I could leverage the mill up enough to crib it with a stack of 2 x 4s. Once the pallet was pulled out I took 1 2 x 4, from the front, then the back in succession until it was on the ground. Now I'll have to get it back up again to put it on the risers. In your pictures of the feet I do not see how that would lift the the mill, maybe level it, but I'm not seeing much lifting.


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## Just for fun (Apr 29, 2022)

I also got the feet with mine,  the studs are not that long.   Just enough to level the mill but not lift it more than maybe 1/4".


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## Cletus (Apr 29, 2022)




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## erikmannie (Apr 30, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> To me there was quite a bit of work from the time the mill is unloaded from the truck to the point I was ready to move it into place, especially paying someone $400 an hour.  Does the rigging crew charge travel time?
> 
> I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to have them unload the mill and hit the road.  Give you a chance to uncreate it and get you mind wrapped around moving it into place.
> 
> ...


Great info.

Last time I used this rigging crew, it was $200/guy & no charge for all of their equipment (flatbed, forklift, etc.). I was charged from the time they left their yard (I had the lathe shipped directly to them) until the time they returned back to the yard.

I was not charged anything for the many phone consultations before the fact, the time they spent receiving my lathe from the freight company, or a week of lathe storage. PM also shipped a small back-ordered item months later, and the rigging company did not charge me for that service.

My experience with this company is that they were stellar.

I don’t have very much financial pressure. I am definitely short on my time, however. The *maximum* time that I get to spend on my hobbies during a calendar week is 12 hours. Any errands or family obligations come out of that 12 hours. As a result, I have to *work* about 67 hours per week, and I am left with only about 8-10 hours for my hobbies. That is a really sad ratio! My employer is *extremely inconsiderate* of their employees’ personal & family time.

Back to the topic at hand, the rigging crew needed the lathe to be off of the pallet in order to move it into the garage last time. They helped me pull off all of the wood & shrink wrap. It went really quickly with 3 guys doing that. Those guys move a lot faster than I ever do!


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## erikmannie (Apr 30, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Once mine came off of the truck we cut the pallet down to minimum size, and used a pallet jack to set it where it was going to stay. There was enough of a lip front and back that I could leverage the mill up enough to crib it with a stack of 2 x 4s. Once the pallet was pulled out I took 1 2 x 4, from the front, then the back in succession until it was on the ground. Now I'll have to get it back up again to put it on the risers. In your pictures of the feet I do not see how that would lift the the mill, maybe level it, but I'm not seeing much lifting.


The feet are not intended to lift the mill hardly at all. They will lift it little bit, but it only has a 1/2” of wiggle room to get the mill precisely leveled.

I am 5’ 9” tall. I will work on the milling machine for a few months to determine if I want to raise it more.


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## erikmannie (May 7, 2022)

I had to fight a lot with the management team at my work in order to be able to be home on vacation the week that this knee mill is coming.

I had scheduled that week off (last week of May) months ago, but my supervisor had failed to put in the book. He needed me to overlook his mistake & choose an earlier (!) vacation week. It was a *huge fight*, but I ended up getting the week that I had scheduled.

Precision Matthews has installed all 3 of the power feeds, & the knee mill is just waiting to have the custom pallet built.

Precision Matthews will call mid-week for a final payment ($11,777), and we are ready for that. When I say “ready for that”, I mean “room on the credit card”. This credit card gives us 5% cash back, and then we can transfer much (most?) of the balance to a different card that has a 0% promotional rate.

The catch with the 0% promotional rate is that you have to pay it *all* off in 6-12 months, or else you have to pay all of the back interest! This effectively sentences me to 6-12 months of continued extreme overtime. If I get injured at work or go out on disability, I get put in a very bad situation.

I have been in this situation before, and you very quickly learn to work *very* safely, and minimize health risks. It was in the same situation where I got off of drugs, alcohol, nicotine & caffeine. I won’t have anything come between me and my machines!


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## erikmannie (May 7, 2022)

I had a long conversation with the rigging company; I gave them a lot of details about the dimensions & weight of the pallet, the height of my garage entrance, & that I need them to move an engine lathe out of the way in order to put the milling machine in place. Before they leave, I need them to put the engine lathe back where it was.

The machine is being shipped directly to the rigging company. It is a crane company, & I have used them before. Assuming that the trucking company can get the knee mill across the country in 8 calendar days (fingers crossed), I will be able to have the rigging company come to my house the first day of my vacation.

My Dad and I are going to spend my whole vacation getting the mill set up. My Dad is a retired electrician, but due to health reasons he is only able to give direction, & then supervise me executing the work.

I have a 6’ cord for the milling machine already, but I don’t think it is going to be long enough. The way that I am positioning the machines (lathe & mill), I am now in the position where the 6’ cord for the engine lathe is also not long enough.

To add to this, the machine tools have displaced where I put my welding table, so now I need to buy a (3-prong, 50’) 220V extension cord for all of my welding machines. Also, I need to modify the 4-prong male plug for the Miller Dynasty so that the Dynasty can use the same 220V extension cord that the other machines use (the other 2 welding machines are 3-prong).

Finally, the 4-prong, 40A, 220V female receptacle on my garage wall will no longer be needed, & we will convert it to a 3-prong 220V, or better yet a couple of 110V outlets.

That is a lot of taking apart old cables, & making longer, standardized (i.e. 3-prong) cables.


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## Aukai (May 7, 2022)

A lot of work, but good thing your dad can help. I have attic space in my garage, and also did a drop cable for the mill through the ceiling. Not pretty but functional.


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## erikmannie (May 7, 2022)

Paying for the rigger & buying the electrical cables will put us on the ropes financially through Setember, so you won’t see much from me in the “What Did You Buy Today?” thread.

I am really scared of how much the rigging bill is going to cost! I would estimate $1,700 to $3,000.


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## erikmannie (May 7, 2022)

Aukai said:


> A lot of work, but good thing your dad can help. I have attic space in my garage, and also did a drop cable for the mill through the ceiling. Not pretty but functional.


The cord coming down the ceiling is not ugly. Why do you have the table and head covered up with what appear to be sheets?

I do *not* have attic space. My 87-year-old mother-in-law lives directly above the garage. Fortunately, she is hearing impaired. If the shop noises get out of control, all she has to do is pull out her hearing aids.


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## Aukai (May 7, 2022)

You've bitten this bullet before, no short cuts though, and you will be good again. The ocean breeze is directed to my house, and I'm less then a 1/2 mile from the ocean. EVERYTHING rusts, and I'm also trying to keep salt air out of the motor.


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## erikmannie (May 7, 2022)

Aukai said:


> You've bitten this bullet before, no short cuts though, and you will be good again.


What is an example of a short cut?


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## Aukai (May 7, 2022)

I know you'll do things right, just don't be tempted to make temporary fixes just to get up and running, like the electrical for instance. You'll be okay I'm sure.


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## erikmannie (May 7, 2022)

Aukai said:


> I know you'll do things right, just don't be tempted to make temporary fixes just to get up and running, like the electrical for instance. You'll be okay I'm sure.


My RPC is on wheels & plugs into the wall, so I do not have the option of hardwiring my 3-phase machine tools.

Once I get the 3-phase machines in place, I can see exactly where this RPC ends up, and then make 4-gauge, 4 strand SO cords of an appropriate length.

I buy my SOOW cord at Home Depot. I think it is the same as this:


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## erikmannie (May 7, 2022)

Aukai said:


> You've bitten this bullet before, no short cuts though, and you will be good again. The ocean breeze is directed to my house, and I'm less then a 1/2 mile from the ocean. EVERYTHING rusts, and I'm also trying to keep salt air out of the motor.


That is insanely close to the ocean! That definitely explains the protective sheets.


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## Aukai (May 7, 2022)

Haha, I'm about a couple of hundred yards above the Tsunami inundation zone. I put in 4 220v outlets around the garage, plus 1 dedicated for 100 amp service if I need to max my syncrowave 250 . This is my main 3ph central. RPC for the Doall saw, VFD for the 1340 lathe, and a plug for the mill that has it's own VFD.


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## erikmannie (May 8, 2022)

I am on pretty thin ice here financially, trying to pay PM & the riggers. Today, we took our dog Daisy to the vet for an ear ache. The bill was $609.00!


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## Just for fun (May 8, 2022)

Ouch!


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## erikmannie (May 9, 2022)

My knee mill is hopefully going to ship tomorrow.

When I got home from work today, I saw an email from PM saying that they are ready for me to pay my balance.

I will call PM first thing in the morning so that they can hopefully get it out on a truck tomorrow!

Does anybody know how long it will take to get across the country (from PA to CA)?


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## Aukai (May 9, 2022)

This is my Di-Acro bender from Pa to LA


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## matthewsx (May 9, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> I am on pretty thin ice here financially, trying to pay PM & the riggers. Today, we took our dog Daisy to the vet for an ear ache. The bill was $609.00!


They are family.


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## matthewsx (May 9, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> My knee mill is hopefully going to ship tomorrow.
> 
> When I got home from work today, I saw an email from PM saying that they are ready for me to pay my balance.
> 
> ...


Anywhere from 4 days to 3 weeks. Totally depends on the trucking company, once you have the bill of lading you can call to get an estimate on time.


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## erikmannie (May 10, 2022)

Aukai said:


> This is my Di-Acro bender from Pa to LA
> 
> View attachment 406581


That looks like 3 days across the whole country, from ship date to arrival at terminal.


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## erikmannie (May 10, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> They are family.


And here is my youngest daughter. This photo is pre-earache Daisy fully primped on her first birthday. She has yet to celebrate her second birthday.







She is not allowed in the garage due to metal chips.


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## Aukai (May 10, 2022)

Fancy, nice looking pup. I haven't been in the garage for two weeks, my wife showed me a spring chip. How'd this get in here??? The dog.....


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## erikmannie (May 10, 2022)

I set my alarm for 5:40 AM this morning. I immediately called Precision Matthews to pay the balance (I am on the West Coast). That is a lot of money to spend in a single phone call, but I plan to enjoy this knee mill for the rest of my life.

If I live for 25 more years, this knee mill will have cost me $14.23/week to own. I remember being in school on the knee mills, thinking to myself “Someday I will have one of these at my house.”

Precision Matthews does a *very* good job. Even though I didn’t ask, John went out to check that the machine was all palleted up and ready to ship out, which it was.

Again, even though I didn’t ask, PM emailed me a digital copy of the paid invoice, and, more importantly, a PRO number. The freight company is YRC.

I know that I posted this a lot, but this is the fourth machine that I bought from Precision Matthews, not to mention a half dozen other “non-machine” orders. PM has not made a single mistake with anything.


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## Just for fun (May 10, 2022)

Good news!


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## erikmannie (May 11, 2022)

I still need to research & obtain spindle oil, etc. I better hurry up with that.

I also need to make or buy a fixture to attach a CXA toolpost to the mill table so that I can hook my Sky Hook tool post crane on the mill table in order to lift my big vise up on the table.

Here is a picture of AXA and CXA bolt down adapters:


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## erikmannie (May 11, 2022)

I bought 8 (5/8” table slot width, 1/2-13 tpi tapped) T-slot nuts from Zoro, as well as the CXA bolt down adapter pictured above.

Why am I talking about a CXA adapter for my milling machine? Because my tool post crane was purchased for use on a lathe which has a CXA tool post.

I called the rigging company this morning, and they were able to schedule the delivery for the first day of my vacation (which is a Monday). This will allow 10 calendar days for the pallet to travel from coast to coast.

If the timing above works out, I will have 7 days to work on the knee mill without being interrupted by work.

What do you guys think I might be missing in order to get to the point where I’m making chips?

I have:

(1) a good amount of tooling that will be shared with the PM-25MV (also uses R8 collets),

(2) an 8” milling machine vise,

(3) an RPC with a 20A breaker, 6’ of 4/4 SOOW cable with the male 20A receptacle that matches the dedicated female receptacle in the RPC,

(4) I still need to research about the spindle oil, etc. I have plenty of Mobil Vactra #2 for the one-shot lube system,

(5) a T-slot cleaner that I made in school two years ago,

(5) a DTI and an El Cheapo adapter to fit the DTI into a collet. This is for trammeling.


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## erikmannie (May 12, 2022)

I wonder if it would be wise to buy this lubrication kit. As you can see in the description, this is for a Bridgeport. I wonder if I can assume that a Precision Matthews knee mill would require the exact same fluids.









						Lubrication Maintenance Kit For Milling Machine(Oils Must Ship Via Ups Ground)
					

-




					hqtinc.com
				




EDIT: I bought it.


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## matthewsx (May 12, 2022)

If you’re planning to use it for 25 years I would buy oil in at least a 5 gal bucket.


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## Aukai (May 12, 2022)

Check online for the manual and the lubrication requirements. I go through a lot of way oil being close to the ocean, I have to coat everything to TRY to stay ahead of the rust. Amazon, or Ebay free shipping for the name brand you like, I use Mobile in a 5 gal bucket.


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## Firstram (May 12, 2022)

Aukai said:


> I go through a lot of way oil being close to the ocean, I have to coat everything to TRY to stay ahead of the rust.


You should try Fluid Film, you won't be disappointed. It's available in spray cans or by the gallon, a light coat will protect raw metal for a long time! I have all but stopped using oil unless it's needed for lubrication


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## erikmannie (May 13, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Check online for the manual and the lubrication requirements. I go through a lot of way oil being close to the ocean, I have to coat everything to TRY to stay ahead of the rust. Amazon, or Ebay free shipping for the name brand you like, I use Mobile in a 5 gal bucket.


Have you considered trying Mobil Vactra #4 which has much higher viscosity?


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## Aukai (May 13, 2022)

Not sure what number but I do have Vactra, and DTE 26.


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## erikmannie (May 21, 2022)

Disappointingly, my visit from the rigging crew has been pushed back a few days.

After coming all the way across the country, the local freight depot has been *sitting on* my pallet for 2 business days, & now the weekend is here (which adds 2 more calendar days).

I had scheduled the rigging company to come first thing Monday morning, but they don’t have the pallet. Obviously, we had to cancel that appointment, and now the rigging company doesn’t know when they will have another time slot for me.

When I scheduled a rigging appointment, the estimated arrival date for the pallet was May 17. With the freight company delay, that will be May 23 or later.

I timed my vacation so that I would have off this week.

Eventually, the freight company will deliver the pallet. At some point, the rigging company will have time for me. Hopefully, both these things will occur before my vacation ends.

The ETA still shows 5-17-22!


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## erikmannie (May 21, 2022)

I have plenty to do to get ready for the big mill.

My welding table will have to live outside now. I will spend the next few days making that outdoor welding area. With the improved air quality from welding outside, this is great news for my lungs.

I am not going to build a shed or lean-to, as I have no money for that. I am just going to cover the welding table with a waterproof tarp.

I also need to buy a 220V extension cord so that I can plug in my welding machines. Too bad I don’t have money for an extension cord.

I also have to mark on the floor exactly where the big knee mill & big lathe will go.

I also need to re-do the 3-phase power cord for the mill; I didn’t make it long enough the first time. I think the 3-phase power cord for the engine lathe will also be too short after I reposition the lathe.


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## erikmannie (May 21, 2022)

I also have boxes of tools (and junk?) that I don’t want in the garage anymore. Our house & lot is *jam packed* with 7 people, 4 dogs & everybody’s stuff.

There is no place to put these boxes of tools & junk, so I guess I will have to get a storage unit. I can top of this new storage unit with bicycles because I have 6 bikes in the garage that I am always having to wheel in & out.

I have been afraid to ride the bicycles since one of my best friends got killed riding his bicycle. At work, I drive 200 miles every weekday, & I see *so* many other drivers distracted on their phones.

I would seriously only ride a bike where there were no cars.


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## Just for fun (May 21, 2022)

Unless your planning on building a shed at your place this next summer for the boxes of junk and bicycles,  your going to be money ahead to just get rid of them now.   

I know so many people that rent storage units and you ask them what's in there just stuff.  And years later that stuff is still just setting there.


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## erikmannie (May 21, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> Unless your planning on building a shed at your place this next summer for the boxes of junk and bicycles,  your going to be money ahead to just get rid of them now.
> 
> I know so many people that rent storage units and you ask them what's in there just stuff.  And years later that stuff is still just setting there.


I have been that person. Paying thousands of dollars over the years to store hundreds of dollars worth of stuff. For much less than the money spent on a storage unit, I could buy a shed.

It’s not that much of a problem to wheel the bikes in & out.


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## erikmannie (May 21, 2022)

I bought a whopping 15’ of 8 AWG, 4 strand SOOW in order to make the power cord for the knee mill. Home Depot charges $3.97/foot and they had it in stock.

I had previously made a cord that was 7’ long. That was bad planning, as 7’ is not long enough.






Here is the 20A, 3-phase receptacle:






After we left Home Depot, I remembered that we had forgotten the ring terminals. We went to the hardware store by my house, but they don’t carry 8 AWG ring terminals in stock. We had to drive all the way back to Home Depot just to buy a 5-pack of 8 AWG ring terminals. The pack cost $4.94.


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## Firstram (May 21, 2022)

Why use #8 for a 20 amp load?


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## erikmannie (May 21, 2022)

Firstram said:


> Why use #8 for a 20 amp load?


I don’t know the answer to that. This is the same size & type of SOOW cable that I use on my 30A engine lathe circuit.

Is 8 AWG overkill for a 20A cable?
I know that 6 AWG is A-okay for 40A. I also know that one can almost always get away with 8 AWG for 40A. I don’t know much about 20A circuits; does one use larger diameter wire for 220V circuits?

What should I have used? Am I okay here?

I just Googled the matter, and I found this:







Next I would like to Google if one needs to use larger wire for a 220V circuit, but now I have to go to work.

I still have a lot to learn about electrical.


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## Firstram (May 21, 2022)

No, you don't need larger wire for 220, just size the wire for the amp draw.


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## erikmannie (May 23, 2022)

Update:

Summary:

Everything has been pushed back 9 calendar days.

Details:

The original estimated delivery date for the freight delivery was May 17. I made an appointment with the rigging company to come to my house on May 23. I also took the week off of work for this.

Long story short, the freight did not come on time, and I had to cancel the rigging appointment.

The freight got delivered 6 days after the estimate, and now the rigging company doesn’t have a time slot for me until June 1. I don’t have that day off, so I texted my boss and told him I need to come in to work 2-3 hours late that day.

In the text, I also told my boss that he can call me in to work any day(s) this week, so I will probably make some extra money as a result of all this. That extra money would go straight to paying for the machine, as I still owe $11,700 on it.

First world problems, right?


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## erikmannie (May 23, 2022)

Update on the update:

The staffing at work the rest of this week was hosed, so my boss scheduled me in the rest of the week.

This is financially a good thing. I don’t mind working; I am a UPS driver, & I would miss all my dog biscuit customers. Oh, yeah, and the human customers, as well.

So I had thought that I was going to spend this week setting up the knee mill, but instead I am going to spend it working and paying for the machine.


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## erikmannie (May 23, 2022)

Now that I have an extra 9 days, I’m going to research if I can use a pallet jack to move my machines around, and thus saving money on paying the rigging crew which charges at least $400 an hour.

I don’t have time to research it now, but I know that my engine lathe (approx. 4000 lbs.) can be moved by a forklift. Based on this, I will assume that I can move the engine lathe around my garage with a pallet jack of sufficient weight capacity.

In order to use a pallet jack to move the knee mill around (3000 lbs.), I would build a base (I prefer metal) designed just for this. The base could also serve to raise the knee mill up 2-4 inches.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this?


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## Tipton1965 (May 23, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> Now that I have an extra 9 days, I’m going to research if I can use a pallet jack to move my machines around, and thus saving money on paying the rigging crew which charges at least $400 an hour.
> 
> I don’t have time to research it now, but I know that my engine lathe (approx. 4000 lbs.) can be moved by a forklift. Based on this, I will assume that I can move the engine lathe around my garage with a pallet jack of sufficient weight capacity.
> 
> ...


A pallet jack is how I moved my mill around.  I believe my mill is around 2200 pounds.  It was super easy to roll it around.


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## erikmannie (May 23, 2022)

Tipton1965 said:


> A pallet jack is how I moved my mill around.  I believe my mill is around 2200 pounds.  It was super easy to roll it around.
> View attachment 407800


Does your pallet jack have any special kind of narrow forks?

The diagram below shows the dimensions for the base of the mill.





To grab the mill as in your photo, the forks would have to be a fair amount under 38” wide.

To grab the base of the mill on the narrow side, The forks would have to be a fair amount under 23” wide.

The knee mill weighs 3,000 lbs.

Using a pallet jack to move the engine lathe is easy money. It just have to have a capacity of 4,000 lbs. 

I tried to look up the exact weight of a PM-1660TL, but I couldn’t find it. I know that the whole thing is under 4,400 lbs.


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## erikmannie (May 24, 2022)

Do you guys think this pallet jack would work? The forks are 21” wide, and the weight capacity is 5,500 lbs.









						Uline Pallet Truck - Short/Narrow Fork, 36 x 21
					

Dependable pallet truck at an affordable price. Handles pallets up to 36" with ease. Fits into narrow pallets. 3-position hand control - Raise, lower, neutral. 3" lowered and 7.5" raised height. 7" polyurethane steering wheels. 3" polyurethane fork wheels. 210 steering arc. View video . ULINE...




					www.uline.com
				




Screenshot:


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## erikmannie (May 24, 2022)

I never seem to have time to research things. I am hoping to buy a pallet jack with the money that I save from paying a rigging company to move my machines around.

I would save money by just having the rigging company leave the machine on a pallet in my garage, and then I would do the rest.

Since the knee mill comes on a wooden pallet, I could do something like (1) cut away the pallet, (2) jack up everything, and then figure out the rest from there. The end part is tricky for me. I am planning to raise the machine a few inches. I am 5’ 9” tall.

I would have use for a pallet jack (the shorter and narrower the forks, the better) to move my boxes of stuff around the shop, much the same way as I move my welding carts around the garage. The plan here would be to leave about 8 totes on the pallet jack, and then moving the whole thing out of my way (every time I work in the shop).


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## erikmannie (May 24, 2022)

I would have ordered this one right now, but it is temporarily unavailable:









						Uline Pallet Truck - Short/Extra Narrow Fork, 36 x 16
					

Dependable pallet truck at an affordable price. Fits into narrow pallets. Handles pallets up to 36" with ease. 3-position hand control - Raise, lower, neutral. 3" lowered and 7.5" raised height. 7" polyurethane steering wheels. 2 3/4" polyurethane fork wheels. 210 steering arc. View video ...




					www.uline.com
				




Screenshot:


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## erikmannie (May 24, 2022)

Home Depot has this one:









						Eoslift M25 NS (Narrow and Short) M25 NS
					

Eoslift Superior Pallet Truck is constructed with only high quality materials and craftsman-ship. New German Seals System, 5500 lbs. W Cap., Fork 20.5 in. x 36 in., Polyurethane Wheels, Steel Hubs, Padded



					www.homedepot.com


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## erikmannie (May 24, 2022)

There’s also this one, but now I am out of time to research further:









						JET 161003 PT-1636JA 16" x 36" 5500LB Pallet Truck
					

The 161003 is produced by JET Tools and is described as a JET 161003 PT-1636JA 16" x 36" 5500LB Pallet Truck




					www.mrosupply.com


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## Firstram (May 24, 2022)

Cross posting this from the sharp thread, informative video. You have the dimensions of the mill and the equipment to build mobile bases. Take charge of the situation and make something happen.


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## erikmannie (May 24, 2022)

Firstram said:


> Cross posting this from the sharp thread, informative video. You have the dimensions of the mill and the equipment to build mobile bases. Take charge of the situation and make something happen.


This is a better idea than the pallet jack because my shop is so cramped for space that I would be reluctant to bring in anything new, much less a long, wide & tall pallet jack.

I only have 1 day off of work until the knee mill comes, so the mobile bases may have to come later.


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## Tipton1965 (May 24, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> Does your pallet jack have any special kind of narrow forks?


Yes I bought a pallet jack with narrow forks so it would fit properly.


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## Firstram (May 24, 2022)

Every shop tool I own is on wheels of some sort. Build 4 of these and bases with receivers, swap the casters around as needed!


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## Just for fun (May 24, 2022)

Good idea, I like that.


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## Firstram (May 24, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> Good idea, I like that.


Thanks, It's something the old school film guys used to do. The nice thing is that I barely lift the equipment until I have to get over the ramp on the lift gate. Even then, it's as low as possible. The only drawback, swivel casters are very sensitive about being in the same plane, if you don't lift it evenly there's no way your pushing it in a straight line!!


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## Aaron_W (May 24, 2022)

Don't forget to account for any slope in your driveway. Pushing a 4400lb machine on flat smooth ground is pretty easy but just a little slope and gravity is not your friend. 

You can rent pallet jacks from most equipment rental places. $50/day will add up to buying one fairly quickly, but if it is a once a year kind of thing, then not tripping over the pallet jack 364 days a year is worth something particularly in a small shop.


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## erikmannie (May 24, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Don't forget to account for any slope in your driveway. Pushing a 4400lb machine on flat smooth ground is pretty easy but just a little slope and gravity is not your friend.
> 
> You can rent pallet jacks from most equipment rental places. $50/day will add up to buying one fairly quickly, but if it is a once a year kind of thing, then not tripping over the pallet jack 364 days a year is worth something particularly in a small shop.


Aaron has visited my shop & seen my moderate/medium driveway slope firsthand!

I would definitely not mess with *any* slope. The most I would do is move the machines around the flat garage.


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## matthewsx (May 25, 2022)

I think what you're wanting to hear is you should build a base for your mill, and your lathe and have the rigging company lift them up so you can install the basses before they leave. Once your machines are on a base sufficiently high to get a palette jack underneath you can do whatever you want.

You haven't spent all this time learning to weld just so you can weld pipe coupons have you????

John


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## erikmannie (May 26, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> I think what you're wanting to hear is you should build a base for your mill, and your lathe and have the rigging company lift them up so you can install the basses before they leave. Once your machines are on a base sufficiently high to get a palette jack underneath you can do whatever you want.
> 
> You haven't spent all this time learning to weld just so you can weld pipe coupons have you????
> 
> John


Correct on the machine base projects.

With regard to welding, I am still learning. I really wanted to go to a 9 month welding program, but COVID-19 sent me home after 2 weeks at Hobart…on March 15, 2020. Everybody remembers that date!

After that, I took some welding classes at The Crucible in Oakland (I love that school). I realized that the most productive time in class is welding coupons at the bench. I can do that at home!

I prefer *arc time* to fabrication, so I am very happy with my sheet, plate, pipe & tubing coupons for now. I plan to spend at least 1200 hours on coupons, & then see how nicely I can lay down a bead after that.

Of course, sometimes you have to fab something…like bases for machine tools!


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## matthewsx (May 26, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> Correct on the machine base projects.
> 
> With regard to welding, I am still learning. I really wanted to go to a 9 month welding program, but COVID-19 sent me home after 2 weeks at Hobart…on March 15, 2020. Everybody remembers that date!
> 
> ...


No offense intended, I'm sure you have more than enough experience to build the bases for your machines and doing that will answer most of the questions you have about bringing new equipment into your shop. I have a small shop too (can't even store a palate jack here). But, being able to move machinery yourself is critical to home machine shops. I know you'll work it out and best is if you can take advantage of pros and their equipment when you're paying for them....

John


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## 7milesup (May 26, 2022)

Firstram said:


> Every shop tool I own is on wheels of some sort. Build 4 of these and bases with receivers, swap the casters around as needed!
> View attachment 407841
> 
> 
> View attachment 407843


@Firstram :  That is slicker' than snot.   I need to do that.  Thank you for posting that!!


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

Delivery day!

The rigging crew is supposed to be here in 50 minutes. My Dad and one friend are coming over to watch. My Dad is on standby to run to the hardware store and buy some nuts for the feet. I should have ordered the feet early so that I could have had nuts ready to go. Hopefully the feet will come with nuts.

I got up at 3:45 AM to get ready for the delivery. I have had almost no chance to get ready earlier due to working so many hours. I did, however, take the time to tape off where the big machines are going to go.

Here are some before and after pictures of clearing out the garage. To reduce weight, I removed the heavy 6J chuck and bullnose live center. I also drained 4 gallons of the CF.

Before:


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

After:


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

I put a lot of stuff on the side yard. This would be a really bad time to have it start raining!


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

I usually start work at 7:30 or 7:45 AM. I asked them to try to get me the day off (which is very unlikely). If staffing does not allow this, I have to go to work as soon as possible.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

I just called to confirm with the crane company (which I would have done yesterday if I would have had a cell signal on my UPS route). They said that they will be here shortly, which I was very excited to hear because I have not talked to them in 9 days.

The rigging crew is going to have to use a forklift to get the engine lathe out of the way to bring in the knee mill. Here are some pictures of the underside of the cast iron stand on a PM-1660TL. This lends itself well to forks.

The stippled white garage door is closed in these photos (because of my nosy neighbor). You can see blue painter’s tape on the floor.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

I could see that I would have never made it to work, so I called in and told them that I was going to *need* to take today off.

The rigging company billed me from 6:00-10:00 AM. That is from the time they started loading up until the time they were done unloading.

There were no issues, so I will just post a *lot* photos and that will tell the story.

So I will have about 12 hours to put everything back in the garage nice and neat.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

More pictures, one of which is my buddy taking away the plywood. He was very excited to get free plywood.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

More pictures. They did not move the engine lathe out of the way. They fit the knee mill through the gap.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

More pictures. These pictures are just a little out of order.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

More pictures:


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

Last set of pictures:


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

I missed being able to watch some of the action because I was messing with the feet that I bought with the machine.

The feet come with the foot, shank, nut and washer. The shank does not thread into the casting. Bolts that would thread into the casting would be about 3/4”.

What I decided to do was to have my dad go buy Grade 8, large diameter washers. I put the casting on top of the washer on top of the smaller washer on top of the nut.

So the machine is just sitting on the large washer, which is of course threaded on the shank. Of course, the shank is threaded into the foot. I can use a cone wrench to level the machine.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

Can anybody please tell me how to rotate up the head? I won’t be getting into the manual until the sun goes down. I feel like I need to organize the garage first; that is one of my favorite things to do.


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## Aukai (Jun 1, 2022)

The 4 bolts on the front of the head must be loosened, and there is a hex head drive gear to rotate the head around. As you crank the drive gear you can help take the weight of the head to help push it around.


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## DavidR8 (Jun 1, 2022)

Wow, looks like it went very smoothly. 
As an aside, you have acres of room for more tools!


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## Just for fun (Jun 1, 2022)

I'm glad it went smooth.   Very cool that they were able to get the mill in without moving the lathe.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

Aukai said:


> The 4 bolts on the front of the head must be loosened, and there is a hex head drive gear to rotate the head around. As you crank the drive gear you can help take the weight of the head to help push it around.


Thank you for that. After you said that, I remembered that that is how it is done. Instead of straining myself and pushing up using my body, I uses a cheater bar.

I also had to raise the knee and adjust the ram back a lot in order to make it look normal.


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## Aukai (Jun 1, 2022)

Looks good


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## Tipton1965 (Jun 1, 2022)

You have a great lathe/Mill combo now!


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

Tipton1965 said:


> You have a great lathe/Mill combo now!


I bought a small mill, and then a small lathe from PM. I grossly underestimated how much I would enjoy machining, thus the bigger machines.

My Mom came over today. She said, “Oh, great! Now you can sell these other ones”, pointing to the PM-25MV and PM-1030V.

YEAH, RIGHT! How could she not understand how much I am attached to those machines? The first time that I *ever* operated a mill and lathe were on those two machines.

I told her that I use the big machines to work on big parts, and the little machines to work on little parts.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

Now I have worn myself out cleaning the work table. I am happy with the job I did, but I am out of gas.

I have been working way too many hours at work. I was talking to the boss today about this, and he said that I can work in the office the rest of the week; this is a swing shift, & it has no overtime! This will free up a lot of time to get the new machine going.


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## Aaron_W (Jun 1, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> I bought a small mill, and then a small lathe from PM. I grossly underestimated how much I would enjoy machining, thus the bigger machines.
> 
> My Mom came over today. She said, “Oh, great! Now you can sell these other ones”, pointing to the PM-25MV and PM-1030V.
> 
> ...



I know a lot of people are fine making little parts on a big machine, but I really like having a couple machines sized to the work.


That is quite a mill, glad to see it all worked out. 
I know it was a lot of money paid to riggers, and sure you probably could have managed with your dad, a couple friends and a rented forklift but any goofs and think of the possible damage. You don't have to look far to find stories of a lathe dumped on its face, a mill tipped over etc. Always a risk even with small machines. You can kind of manhandle 300-400lb machines, but over 1000lbs the margin of error gets a lot smaller. Money well spent in my mind.


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## Janderso (Jun 1, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> I know a lot of people are fine making little parts on a big machine, but I really like having a couple machines sized to the work.
> 
> 
> That is quite a mill, glad to see it all worked out.
> I know it was a lot of money paid to riggers, and sure you probably could have managed with your dad, a couple friends and a rented forklift but any goofs and think of the possible damage. You don't have to look far to find stories of a lathe dumped on its face, a mill tipped over etc. Always a risk even with small machines. You can kind of manhandle 300-400lb machines, but over 1000lbs the margin of error gets a lot smaller. Money well spent in my mind.


Making little parts on big machines can be challenging. The 5C collet chuck has been amazing.
Another idea may be to mount a small 4 jaw in the big 4 jaw. The big 4 jaw is not east to quickly change out!!


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

I *had to* bring the stuff in from the sideyard. There are 5 items on wheels (4 bikes + “the tote cart”) that I would almost always *roll out of the garage” to do any welding or machining.

Here is everything organized the best that I could. You will see that the 5 items listed above would be in the way of any work.

The photos are working clockwise around the garage starting at the knee mill.
















The oily flat box on top of the bench mill stand contains 5C collets.


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## erikmannie (Jun 1, 2022)

I am soliciting suggestions on how to optimize the crowded space.

Continuing to work around clockwise:


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## erikmannie (Jun 2, 2022)

Still working around clockwise:


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## erikmannie (Jun 2, 2022)

I think the magic bullet here is to get a lot of stuff that is (still on the floor + not on wheels) onto a tall rolling cart. That “tote cart” really helped by getting a lot of stuff to have a small footprint.

The tote cart is just (totes + a box) on top of plywood held down by gravity on four 150 pound (each) furniture dollies. I will re-do that to be (1) only as wide as it needs to be plus (2) screw the plywood to the dollies.

With a little effort, I could stack the few other (on the floor + not on wheels) boxes on top of the totes, but it might be too tall to pass through the man door. If I made a second cart, it wouldn’t be stacked very high.

The bad thing about the tote cart is that if you need something from the bottom tote, you have to pull down 4 heavy totes plus a heavy box…and then re-stack everything.

Obviously, a rolling shelf (I will find and post an example) would fit the bill here. If I needed something, it would be in view & in reach.

Now that the knee mill is in there, I am only going to TIG weld in the garage. I have my welding bench outside for the types of welding that throw spatter & emit smoke. I am going to make a second base for the weld test stand, and bolt that second base down in the sideyard. Until I get around to making this second base, it is easy to clamp the individual arms (e.g. the plate/sheet arm) of the weld test stand to the welding table.


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## erikmannie (Jun 2, 2022)

A rolling cart with secure shelves would look something like this. The one in the picture is obviously flimsy. I would build one to suit; that is, sturdy & only as big as it needs to be.






If you guys see a quality one that might fit the bill, please link it here. I will probably choose to make one because so much of the stuff that is sold is flimsy junk, imported from place(s) with questionable geopolitical decisions.


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## Aaron_W (Jun 2, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> The bad thing about the tote cart is that if you need something from the bottom tote, you have to pull down 4 heavy totes plus a heavy box…and then re-stack everything.



I have a lot of horizontal mill tooling in Milwaukee stacking containers. Same problem have to move to top boxes to get at lower boxes. 

I haven't got to welding it together yet, but I've got the steel cut for a cart that will take each of the containers like a drawer. It will live between the two mills where it will be out of the way when not needed.

I do have some totes like those black and yellow ones I use for general household storage. I keep them on a large (non-mobile) steel shelf I got from Home Depot or Costco. It works well for me but for your use, building something made for your use will probably be better than than anything you can buy.


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## Winegrower (Jun 2, 2022)

The “Metro” carts you picture are actually very sturdy, and hold about 1200 pounds as I recall…but not with those casters.  There are 5” casters for these carts that are just incredible…I have 5 of these carts loaded down with chucks, rotabs, and every heavy thing I can lift.   I line them up along a wall long side by long side, no space between, and just pull one out like a file drawer to access things from either side.   This has really bootstrapped my shop organization and usability.

Edit: Metro 5pcb casters, urethane tires, 300 pounds per wheel, and they really will do that, and don’t take a set.


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## erikmannie (Jun 2, 2022)

@Aaron_W and @Winegrower

I built a metal welding cart once, & it was an enjoyable project (I like a lot of arc time). Building a rolling shelf ought to be an easy project.

Of course, I will probably spent more money than if I had just bought one. This can only be justified if somebody needs something that is not on the market, or they just like futzing around with steel.

I see a lot of contractors (usually in vans) with handtrucks that have totes (usually red & black) stacked & strapped on the handtruck. This is probably a solution for mobile contractors, though.


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## Stonebriar (Jun 2, 2022)

Here is a link to those carts, definitely not flimsy.  Also not cheap.  We use to stack these with a lot of heavy stuff at work.









						Chrome Shelving, Chrome Wire Shelving, Chrome Wire Storage in Stock - ULINE
					

Uline stocks a wide selection of Chrome Wire Shelving. Order by 6 p.m. for same day shipping. Huge Catalog! Over 40,000 products in stock. 12 Locations across USA, Canada and Mexico for fast delivery of Chrome Wire Shelving.




					www.uline.com


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## Just for fun (Jun 2, 2022)

I have s couple of those in my shop


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## Winegrower (Jun 2, 2022)

These casters are the best I’ve ever had.    Model 5pcb.
The Metro carts I have were found on eBay (Edit:  I mean Craigslist) for around $100 each, and these casters were about $60 for a set of 4, though they list for about that individually.   I bought 4 sets…It pays to shop.


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## erikmannie (Jun 2, 2022)

Stonebriar said:


> Here is a link to those carts, definitely not flimsy.  Also not cheap.  We use to stack these with a lot of heavy stuff at work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we have a winner here. I watched the video in the link. They have so many features and accessories.

If one is to put those on casters, however, you would definitely want to plan for stability. Along these lines, I probably wouldn’t go crazy with height here, and stick heavy items on the bottom and light items on top.

I am surprised that one of the optional accessories isn’t an outrigger. Maybe I could buy one of these shelves with no casters, and custom build a wheeled larger base to attach it to.


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## francist (Jun 2, 2022)

I have some of those same wire shelves in a corner of my shop for holding all my paint, solvents, and sundry supplies. They will hold a fair bit of weight but because the shelves themselves are open wire construction a heavy item with a small footprint tends to sag the wires. If that same weight is distributed over a wider, flat area the shelf supports it better. So, for very heavy but small footprint items (electric motor, eg) having them on a square of thin plywood really helps distribute that weight over the entire shelf.


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## matthewsx (Jun 2, 2022)

I'm just gonna echo what everyone else here says about Metro carts. Good stuff with the right casters will hold much more than you think. No need to re-invent the wheel so to speak, they will work great with moderately heavy loads if you keep the heaviest stuff on the bottom. Sized right for plastic tubs they make a great storage solution.

Awesome to see the mill in your shop along with the big lathe, you're ready for some serious fabrication....

John


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## erikmannie (Jun 7, 2022)

@Stonebriar

That link to the Uline carts sure did the trick.

Uline was super fast about shipping the cart. I ordered it in the wee hours of Saturday morning, and less than 72 hours later it has been delivered, assembled and filled up. It held everything I wanted it to and then some. Now everything in my garage is either bolted down, weighs over 3000 pounds, or is on wheels.







The plan here is to easily roll that cart out to the side yard when I am performing work (and when I say “work”, I mean “fun”) in the shop.


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## sr71xjet (Jun 7, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> I *had to* bring the stuff in from the sideyard. There are 5 items on wheels (4 bikes + “the tote cart”) that I would almost always *roll out of the garage” to do any welding or machining.
> 
> Here is everything organized the best that I could. You will see that the 5 items listed above would be in the way of any work.
> 
> ...


Love the wood tool boxes.  Who made those. Gerstner?


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## erikmannie (Jun 8, 2022)

sr71xjet said:


> Love the wood tool boxes.  Who made those. Gerstner?


Not Gerstner, butI will let you know the next time I get out there.


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## erikmannie (Jun 15, 2022)

I received the $1,788.25 bill from the rigging company!






Say it with me: “It could have been worse!”

They sure did a great job. That delivery was stress free on my part.


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## erikmannie (Jun 15, 2022)

I made a lot of progress today. I just tested all the power feeds, routed those wires, and mounted and tested the DRO. Everything went through without a hitch.


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## erikmannie (Jun 15, 2022)

I still haven’t completely figured out how to use the power feed on the quill. Same issue with the quill fine feed hand wheel.

I can see that it all works as it should, but I just need to figure out exactly how to use it.


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## Aukai (Jun 15, 2022)

One thing that I was not used to from my previous mill was the change of direction from high range to low range. With low range rpm selected the spindle needs to be run in reverse to get proper rotation.


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## Tipton1965 (Jun 15, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> I made a lot of progress today. I just tested all the power feeds, routed those wires, and mounted and tested the DRO. Everything went through without a hitch.
> 
> View attachment 410158


That is quite the handle on your vice.


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## erikmannie (Jun 18, 2022)

I finally had a full day where I was able to work on the knee mill. It took me 6 hours to make this 1” thick, 9 1/2” long & 5” wide plate welding coupon.

I am obviously having some issues with surface finish!


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## Firstram (Jun 18, 2022)

Trust me here, that looks good but, I weld almost every day and I can ruin a surface finish with one pass!


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## erikmannie (Jun 18, 2022)

Firstram said:


> Trust me here, that looks good but, I weld almost every day and I can ruin a surface finish with one pass!


I plan to re-use that exact same plate hundreds of times. The flat sides need to be coplanar, both coupons need to have 90° angles everywhere, & both coupons need to have matching dimensions (starting with thickness!) for the post-welding machining/recycling process.

I know that welding on filler material isn’t the best practice, but who can afford to buy large quantities of 1” plate?

You can easily recycle (“machine back to original dimensions for re-use”) pipe, plate & tubing welding coupons, but I can’t think of any (practical, in terms of time & money) way to do that for sheet coupons. My .125” thick, 3” X 4”, mild steel coupons cost me $1.09 out the door.

Maybe it would be worth it to face both sides (mill the weld beads on either side down flat) and cut them in half, but I don’t believe so for $1.09.


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## Just for fun (Jun 18, 2022)

I don't think I am following you on the one-inch plate that you plan on using hundreds of times.  You mean you are going to lay down beads of weld and then mill them off and do it again?

I'm all for practice and learning how to do it right but way not buy a bunch of stock and learn while making a welding cart, table, bicycle rack, a cart for your extra lathe chucks.   Anyway, that's the way I have did it, I'm pretty confident with a MIG and Stick welder but I am still learning how to TIG weld.  The same thing goes, I'm making things as I learn.


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## erikmannie (Jun 18, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> I don't think I am following you on the one-inch plate that you plan on using hundreds of times.  You mean you are going to lay down beads of weld and then mill them off and do it again?
> 
> I'm all for practice and learning how to do it right but way not buy a bunch of stock and learn while making a welding cart, table, bicycle rack, a cart for your extra lathe chucks.   Anyway, that's the way I have did it, I'm pretty confident with a MIG and Stick welder but I am still learning how to TIG weld.  The same thing goes, I'm making things as I learn.


Our property is already *packed* with people, dogs and stuff. One more welding cart or bicycle rack and I won’t have a place to stand. If I made something for somebody else, I would have to store the materials in our minivan (the back half of which is already being used as a storage unit).


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## Just for fun (Jun 18, 2022)

OK, Got it... So, you need a new place with a large shop out in the country with your closest neighbor too far away to shout at, three phase power, high speed internet and on a lake with a dock......... LOL.  

Back to reality, keep up the good work.


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## Tipton1965 (Jun 19, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> OK, Got it... So, you need a new place with a large shop out in the country with your closest neighbor too far away to shout at, three phase power, high speed internet and on a lake with a dock......... LOL.
> 
> Back to reality, keep up the good work.


Did you see his bill from the riggers?  I don't think he will be moving his equipment anytime soon.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 19, 2022)

Tipton1965 said:


> Did you see his bill from the riggers? I don't think he will be moving anytime soon.


Pretty high for sure , but I'm sure they're not making any profits at those prices .


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## Aaron_W (Jun 19, 2022)

It cost me $1000 to transport my fire engine 60 miles and that was just one guy with a truck and lowboy, so $1700 for a couple guys, truck trailer and forklift seems pretty normal to me.


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## Winegrower (Jun 19, 2022)

I am just realizing how much money I saved by moving all this stuff around myself.   A drop bed trailer is worth every rental penny.
Fortunately I have a friend with much the same vices so we both save a fortune.


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## 7milesup (Jun 19, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> I am just realizing how much money I saved by moving all this stuff around myself.   A drop bed trailer is worth every rental penny.
> Fortunately I have a friend with much the same vices so we both save a fortune.


I have never hired a mover for anything.  I can only imagine how much money I have saved.


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