# Does tooling really cost that much?



## awaqa909 (May 26, 2017)

I've watched a few endmill videos, going to town on some material.  I was curious how they compared to the endmills that I see being used at work.  I have no idea what brand anything we use at work, so I thought I would look at these endmills in the videos first.  I found a Sandvik Coroman 3/8" endmill and it cost $190~...  This got me wondering a bit.  Is this a very expensive endmill or something?  Do other types of tools such as drills and taps costs this much?  I've witnessed one copper job eat a few taps.  Lathes go though 35 deg finishing inserts on stainless steel.

Thanks,
    Awaqa909


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## T Bredehoft (May 26, 2017)

The high priced tools are worth the cost. IF you are using them to make money. Through study they will produce more work per dollar than "cheap" tools. 

On the other hand, I'm not concerned with getting the ultimate value from tooling, so I buy "Cheap" stuff, 5 carbide 1/8 end mills for $2.00. including shipping.  If I break one on the first cut, I'm out $0.40. not hundreds of dollars. 

Expendable tooling (cutters, drills, etc) will not last forever, spend money on measuring tools and machinery that will outlast you.


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## Cobra (May 26, 2017)

To me tooling is not mainly cutters.  You can get reasonably priced cutters.
It's all the other stuff - gauges, pins, mikes, hones, readers, various drill lengths, keyways cutters, rotary tables, clamps.......
And yes they are either expensive in either money or time.
But --- that is this hobby!
Don't worry about it.  Work on them as you need for projects.  It will be a great feeling at the first project that you don't need to buy something new.
Enjoy the journey!


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## Rustrp (May 26, 2017)

Cobra said:


> Don't worry about it. Work on them as you need for projects. It will be a great feeling at the first project that you don't need to buy something new.
> Enjoy the journey!


You and I know this isn't how H-M tool buying addictions work. Buy it now, the job will fall on you.


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## Wreck™Wreck (May 26, 2017)

Yes and no, with ideal cutting conditions  such a tool will often perform as advertised.

With non-ideal conditions be they a flexy machine or setup that is not ideal all bets are off. As far as lathe work goes one may be required to turn long parts that are not possibly an ideal set up, I used  about  $75.00 worth of inserts yesterday facing and boring a part way to big for the machine using  a far from excellent set up.

Face and turn the OD of a 30" laser cut disc, bore 5" + - .005 through, 9.83" +- .010  X .550 deep counterbore with a very strict surface finish.

These are not ideal cutting conditions at all.

The finish was not bad after 14 hours of work.


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## 4GSR (May 26, 2017)

awaqa909 said:


> I've watched a few endmill videos, going to town on some material.  I was curious how they compared to the endmills that I see being used at work.  I have no idea what brand anything we use at work, so I thought I would look at these endmills in the videos first.  I found a Sandvik Coroman 3/8" endmill and it cost $190~...  This got me wondering a bit.  Is this a very expensive endmill or something?  Do other types of tools such as drills and taps costs this much?  I've witnessed one copper job eat a few taps.  Lathes go though 35 deg finishing inserts on stainless steel.
> 
> Thanks,
> Awaqa909


You have to also understand that you see the retail price listed.  Very few companies pay retail price, just you and me.  That Sandvik end mill bought in quantities of lets say 50 at a time, a company may only pay $65 each!  Likewise with carbide inserts, too.  Price is based on volume too.  If your company buys over $250,000 worth a year, you bet you will get a nice discount, and a nice side by side refrigerator along with it too!  And the fridge never makes it to the shop either!  And you wonder why the shop manger has nice new appliances when you go visit his home!


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## hman (May 26, 2017)

I'll go +1 on what others have said.  Start with a basic set that you can easily afford.  Use it carefully, but be aware that the cheap end mills or lathe tools probably won't last.  Then again, they're good learning tools ... if you ruin one, you're not out too many $$.  Keep looking for "super deals" at local sales or the Austin Craigslist.  If you can, find and join an amateur machinists' club.  

When I "started my shop" several years ago I got a set of Chinese end mills - possibly Grizzly, possibly LMS: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1245&category=
I've since loaded up with a goodly selection of mills from sources like those I mentioned.  Once in a while a project comes along that requires a mill I don't have (special diameter, extra length, whatever), and I've gone to sources like LMS, Victor, Shars, or CDCO.  I don't think I've paid over $25 for *any* of my regular end mills.  Did pay around $100 for a carbide insert shell mill, to replace the POS I got with my round column mill.  I bought one that allowed me to re-use the arbor.

Pretty much the same story for lathe tools.


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## Silverbullet (May 26, 2017)

For the past hundred years or so , high speed tools have been tops on most materials. Carbide came in about fifty years ago . A lot depends on the manufacturer or the steel mill . The better the steel the better the cutter. Works the same for carbide. So it's still the same . I can't see buying costly tool bits over the cheaper alternatives , I don't think China quality even warrants mention. I'm talking American brands , you can make great cutting tools from old worn out stelite valves from small engines . The same type steel in many high speed steel tools. I'm more then willing to buy used endmills over New. But it's my income that forces the situation.


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## EmilioG (May 26, 2017)

There are tons of great deals to be had on top quality tooling at a fraction, if you're patient and vigilant.
Ebay, CL, flea markets, auctions, estate sales, even Amazon and Msc.  I've gotten amazing deals on Ebay for top notch stuff. I never pay anything close to retail.
Not everything of course comes at a bargain price and if you need something right away, you can only do your best comparison shopping.


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## Rustrp (May 27, 2017)

4gsr said:


> And you wonder why the shop manger has nice new appliances when you go visit his home!


It's not his fault the delivery guys showed up at the wrong address.


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## skinny_jim (May 27, 2017)

"You want to play ...... you have to Pay."

I save money by using HSS and sharpening the tools when appropriate. 

Tool wear .....it's all about speeds and feeds and metal cutting fluids...... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## awaqa909 (May 27, 2017)

I haven't had to buy that type of tooling.  Hopefully whenever I end up running the mills myself, it will still be shop supplied.


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## Wreck™Wreck (May 27, 2017)

skinny_jim said:


> "You want to play ...... you have to Pay."
> 
> I save money by using HSS and sharpening the tools when appropriate.
> 
> ...


If I did that job with HSS tooling it would still be running today, this machine lacks CSS capability. 300 FPM at the OD at 40 RPM's then 50 FPM at the 5" bore diameter.


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## wildo (May 27, 2017)

Here's $560.47 worth of end mills. That money sure doesn't go far, does it? Good tooling is expensive. Great tooling is astronomical!







I have found these Kodiak end mills to be very good quality, though I've never worked with the super quality stuff like Sandvik, Niagara, etc. They are American made and have cut anything I've thrown at them with ease. The aluminum-specific ZrN coated ones truly cut through aluminum like butter! I've posted about these before. My experience is limited, but I just happen to think they're quite nice. Likely an upper-mid ranged product- perfect for the home gamer.

Here are my sets:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00L2ANFPO
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G5C6VNW
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G5EWERC
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D5TQ8GS


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## joshua43214 (May 28, 2017)

Yes, tooling is that expensive 
Though that sounded like a MSRP, rather than the actual street price.

I pretty much never use insert tooling. I purchased a cheap import insert boring bar from Ebay, and made my own for outside threading. I do plan to upgrade the internal bar at some point with a quality one. Threading inserts are a good idea for the hobbyist imo since they basically never wear out. I also made a dovetail cutter that takes inserts for the mill.
I use one variety or another of HSS for pretty much everything else on the lathe.
On the mill, if there is anyway to flycut it, I flycut it. I save my endmills for when there is no other good option.
I have been slowly replacing some of my endmills with solid carbide ones (mainly steel cutting ones). MariTool seems to have good prices, and they are USA made. It is definitely worth the difference in price between carbide and cobalt when machining steel. I find that a quality cobalt tool is better than an average carbide for aluminum - so I plan to stick with cobalt for that. Avoid cheap import HSS for aluminum, even the coated ones have galling issues from poor finish quality in the flutes.

You will probably hear it many times, invest in a grinder and learn to grind your own tooling. Not only will you save hundreds of dollars a year on tooling, you will have more flexibility in your work. Get a decent 8" grinder (Delta from Lowes is fine), and drop the dime on quality Norton white wheels (can cost more than the grinder). A set of DMT combination diamond laps (so you can touch up your brazed tooling as well), and you are good to go. You don't need a fancy tool rest, freehand grinding looks more scary than it is. The whole set up will cost less than a pair of insert tool holders. I suggest plain HSS for brass/aluminum, 8% cobalt for steel, Rex (or some other "super" HSS) for cast iron, heavy scale/rust/pits or deep roughing. You can safely turn light blue chips with a Rex bit, and dark straw to light blue with 8% cobalt. The really nice thing about 8% Co and Rex tooling, is that they do not require the tool pressure that carbide does, so you can take extremely light cuts on steel that would require special carbide inserts to make, they are also about immune to interrupted cuts.


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## BGHansen (May 28, 2017)

More of a gloat than anything, here are most of my end mills.  Takes up most/all of 3 drawers in a 26" wide roll-around tool chest.  Most of my end mills are brand new, never used Niagaras, over 250 of them.  I have carbide (smaller number with countersinks) in one drawer, HSS in another.  They're arranged by size with 2-flutes to the front, 4-flute to the back.  The drawer with end mills in plastic bags are my extras that don't fit in the other two drawers.

I picked them up at a tool shop in the Detroit area that was going out of business.  Lots of guys there bidding on the equipment, pretty much alone by the time they got to the small stuff.  Really bragging now, you'd pay more to feed a family of 4 at Wendy's than I paid for all of those end mills.  Moral of the story, do some looking around and you may get lucky like I did.  There are deals out there if you're not in a hurry.

Bruce


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## 4GSR (May 28, 2017)

Bruce, as my parents used to tell me, it's always nice to share your stuff. hint, hint.

Just kidding...


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## hman (May 29, 2017)

He has.  And my sincere thanks!


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## BGHansen (May 29, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Bruce, as my parents used to tell me, it's always nice to share your stuff. hint, hint.
> 
> Just kidding...


Hi Ken,

I didn't mention the rest of the haul.  Walked away with around 100 spotting drills and center drills too (KEO in carbide and cobalt HSS) . . .   Something about the blind squirrel finding a nut every once in a while.

Bruce


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## 4GSR (May 29, 2017)

Bruce,

I have several type II Erector Sets and lots of spare parts, any trade we can make????

Ken


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## pstemari (May 29, 2017)

awaqa909 said:


> ..I found a Sandvik Coroman 3/8" endmill and it cost $190~...



If it's from Sandvik I'm guessing that was an insert end mill? $190 sounds about right for such a thing: 3/8" is awfully small for insert tooling.

You can get new HSS Niagara's from Amazon for $20-$30 ea in that size, e.g.
Niagara Cutter HSS Square Nose End Mill, Uncoated, 30-Degree, 4-Flute, 2.875" OAL, 0.375". A bit more for carbide.


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## Tozguy (May 29, 2017)

BGHansen said:


> Hi Ken,
> 
> I didn't mention the rest of the haul.  Walked away with around 100 spotting drills and center drills too (KEO in carbide and cobalt HSS) . . .   Something about the blind squirrel finding a nut every once in a while.
> 
> Bruce



Bruce, ever think of adopting a 72 year old? I'm toilet trained and don't talk much.


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## BGHansen (May 29, 2017)

Tozguy said:


> Bruce, ever think of adopting a 72 year old? I'm toilet trained and don't talk much.


Thanks for the kind offer, but my wife and I are REALLY looking forward to being empty nesters in a few months!  Our daughter will finish up law school next year and moved out 5 years ago.  Our son has been going to community college the last two years and is heading out to a 4-year school on August 24 (not that we're watching the date . . .).  

Bruce


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## BGHansen (May 29, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Bruce,
> 
> I have several type II Erector Sets and lots of spare parts, any trade we can make????
> 
> Ken


Hi Ken,

Shoot me a PM, I'm sure we can work something out.

Bruce


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## KBeitz (Oct 16, 2018)

Oh oh.... Do we have some erector set collectors here? ...


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## Dabbler (Oct 16, 2018)

I did an inventory six months ago, and at today's prices, I'd have to spend $4000 for the tool holders, HSSand carbide, extra chucks collets, tailstock accessories for my $2000 lathe.  That's 38 years of accumulation. 

-  I've been more frugal for my mill.  at a rough gues, tilt table, rotary table, cutters, hold downs, wrenches, I"m close to $2000.  Not a cheap hobby.


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## BaronJ (Oct 16, 2018)

Hi Guys,

Come on !  This is a hobby !  If you're in business and making money, yes good tools are money, and worth every penny.
A hobbyist doesn't need to go to extremes unless he wants to !

I only buy what I need to do whatever I'm working on at the moment, assuming that I don't already have something that I can use. 
I personally like to make the tools that I want to make, sometimes in order to do another job, sometimes just because I want to.


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## raptor2013 (Oct 20, 2018)

awaqa909 said:


> I've watched a few endmill videos, going to town on some material.  I was curious how they compared to the endmills that I see being used at work.  I have no idea what brand anything we use at work, so I thought I would look at these endmills in the videos first.  I found a Sandvik Coroman 3/8" endmill and it cost $190~...  This got me wondering a bit.  Is this a very expensive endmill or something?  Do other types of tools such as drills and taps costs this much?  I've witnessed one copper job eat a few taps.  Lathes go though 35 deg finishing inserts on stainless steel.
> 
> Thanks,
> Awaqa909


I only do it has a hobby so I get most of mine off ebay. you can get some good deals.


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## bhigdog (Oct 21, 2018)

One of the best ways to save money on end mills is to use a shaper for roughing and the $$$ end mills to finish. When your dirt cheap shaper bit gets dull a quick touch up on the grinder and you're good to go.................Bob


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## dlane (Oct 21, 2018)

Unless you buy this kind


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## BaronJ (Oct 21, 2018)

Hi Guys,

Well you could always eat this one...


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## P. Waller (Oct 21, 2018)

If you have to produce X number of parts in a fixed period of time it is often beneficial to buy a tool made for the specific application that you are running, this tool may not last a single part in a different material or machine.
Buy the tooling that fits your needs, if an inexpensive HSS tool makes the part that you require have at it even if you have to buy 2 $20.00 tools.
If you need to make 10,000 parts then a $200.00 tool may be well worth the price.

Choose wisely.


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## BGHansen (Oct 21, 2018)

KBeitz said:


> Oh oh.... Do we have some erector set collectors here? ...


Hi KBeitz,

I had a rather large collection, somewhere around 350 sets.  But I regained my sanity (?) about 5 years ago and started selling.  I'm down to under 100 sets at this time.  I used to edit the newsletter for the A. C. Gilbert Heritage Society (www.acghs.org).  If you hit the web site, you'll find a downloadable guide book I wrote over 10 years ago.  Really should update it one of these days.

Bruce


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## P. Waller (Oct 25, 2018)

awaqa909 said:


> I've watched a few endmill videos, going to town on some material.  I was curious how they compared to the endmills that I see being used at work.  I have no idea what brand anything we use at work, so I thought I would look at these endmills in the videos first.  I found a Sandvik Coroman 3/8" endmill and it cost $190~...  This got me wondering a bit.  Is this a very expensive endmill or something?  Do other types of tools such as drills and taps costs this much?  I've witnessed one copper job eat a few taps.  Lathes go though 35 deg finishing inserts on stainless steel.
> 
> Thanks,
> Awaqa909


If you need to run many parts per day unattended then the difference between a $19.00 tool and a $190.00 tool will soon become apparent.
Choose Wisely


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