# Trying To Decide On A Mill



## Navy Chief (Mar 14, 2015)

I am in the planning stages of re-arranging my shop to make space for a mill and I need some help. I am trying to decide between the PM-25MV and the PM-932M-PDF. I am really leaning towards the larger machine so that in theory I will not outgrow it as soon, but I need to know how much floor space to plan for each of these machines so I can figure out what I can fit into the shop space I have. My planned usage right now is making telescope parts, motorcycle parts, model engines, and of course making tools, etc. Right now all I am working with is a 7x14 Grizzly lathe, and adding a mill to the shop would really open up the possibilities for projects. 

I am also wondering if there is any advantage to having the 3 axis DRO on these types of machines, is the down feed on the column accurate enough and smooth enough to use it as a feed for working, or is it just rough setup with the quill being used for fine feeds?


Thanks for any information you can provide.


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## brav65 (Mar 14, 2015)

Hi Chief,

I have a PM-25MV and love it.  If my budget would have allowed I would have gone with the 932, but I was already stretching my original budget (started off wanting a HF X2).  The foot print of the PM-25 is 13-1/2" x 16-1/2" at the base.  Of course the real food print of the mill is the table which is approximately 39" x 37".  I purchased a DRO Pros model 3M DRO with my mill and am really happy I did.  I am new to milling and the DRO makes everything easier as I don't have to keep track of the number of turns of the wheel.  I have worked in steel, aluminum, and brass so far, and the machine performs flawlessly.  Based on the description of the work you plan to do, the 25 would be a good fit.  I also have a HF 7x12 lathe that makes a good buddy for my mill.


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## wrmiller (Mar 14, 2015)

Navy Chief said:


> I am in the planning stages of re-arranging my shop to make space for a mill and I need some help. I am trying to decide between the PM-25MV and the PM-932M-PDF. I am really leaning towards the larger machine so that in theory I will not outgrow it as soon, but I need to know how much floor space to plan for each of these machines so I can figure out what I can fit into the shop space I have. My planned usage right now is making telescope parts, motorcycle parts, model engines, and of course making tools, etc. Right now all I am working with is a 7x14 Grizzly lathe, and adding a mill to the shop would really open up the possibilities for projects.
> 
> I am also wondering if there is any advantage to having the 3 axis DRO on these types of machines, is the down feed on the column accurate enough and smooth enough to use it as a feed for working, or is it just rough setup with the quill being used for fine feeds?
> 
> ...



I have a PM25 (older model) and a Charter Oak which is basically a 10x40 table with 20" of Z (big fella). I use both with a 3 axis DRO, Z-axis on the head, not the quill. Basically, I do the exact opposite procedure (travel-wise) of that I do on a knee mill which is: I lower the cutter to using the head crank to about 1/8-1/4" away from the material to be milled. Then using the quill, I basically come down to just touching the material, lock the quill, then zero my Z-axis readout. I then 'bump' the cutter off the workpiece and move the cutter away from the material. I then move the head down past my Z-axis target DOC and then bring the head back up to the number I want. Lock the head and go. I do this so the Z-axis screw and head is always loaded in a consistent manner. 99% of my milling is done this way, and for the occasional plunge cut I lock the head and use the digital readout on the quill. Works for me. 

I love my PM25 but I had to get something a bit larger as my projects grew in scope. My big mill (I call him El Hefe) basically takes up the same footprint as a 3/4 Bridgeport but doesn't have the weight of that huge base and knee ( the mill and stand weigh a bit over 1000lbs would be my guess). Long story, but I will have to move again and I didn't want to hire a rigging company to move my machines 1000 miles. Ouch...

If you're planning on making parts for motorcycles or decking heads or cylinders for same, the PM25 might not be big enough. Just my opinion though.


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## tmarks11 (Mar 14, 2015)

DRO is best addition you can make to a mill (ok, maybe CNC is better...).  Once you use a mill with a DRO, it will spoil you for life.  Makes your 4x as productive and 6x as handsome!


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## Navy Chief (Mar 16, 2015)

Thanks for all of the replies, definitely some food for thought as I work out balancing size of machine to the size of the budget. I can fit the larger machine into the space I have, fitting it into the budget may be another story. Not only is it a larger initial investment, but I would also have to run a 220 line to the location to run the machine. Then there is also future growth to consider as I gain experience and confidence I am sure I will want to move to larger more ambitious projects...


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## GA Gyro (Mar 16, 2015)

tmarks11 said:


> DRO is best addition you can make to a mill (ok, maybe CNC is better...).  Once you use a mill with a DRO, it will spoil you for life.  Makes your 4x as productive and 6x as handsome!



I would definitely agree with this... a 3X DRO is, IMO, a must on a mill.
I have a PM935 (knee mill, 3/4 clone of a BP J head style).  Definitely a LOT more mill than what you are looking at.

Might want to talk to Matt at QMT... I think the 932 is being replaced by the 940 (new model), which is a little beefier and has more Y travel (the weak point, IMO, of the 932).  Otherwise, the same mill.


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## compsurge (Mar 16, 2015)

How big are your telescope and motorcycle parts? Will the work that needs to be done fit in the travel of the machines?


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## Navy Chief (Mar 16, 2015)

For now all of the parts I have in mind would fit into the envelope of the PM-25, I am considering the larger mill as a way of future proofing the purchase. Basically I want to prevent a situation where a year or two from now I am looking to spend money on a larger mill.


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## wrmiller (Mar 16, 2015)

Navy Chief said:


> For now all of the parts I have in mind would fit into the envelope of the PM-25, I am considering the larger mill as a way of future proofing the purchase. Basically I want to prevent a situation where a year or two from now I am looking to spend money on a larger mill.



Oh, you mean you're trying to prevent duplicating what I ended up doing?


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## compsurge (Mar 16, 2015)

Skip the pain, buy a 3/4 or full size knee mill 

(I'm serious)


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## Navy Chief (Mar 16, 2015)

I would love to go straight to the 935, but budget constraints are going to prevent that for the foreseeable future (it basically doubles the cost, and would be more than I paid for my truck).


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## compsurge (Mar 16, 2015)

Is buying used an issue? Craigslist often has good prices on knee mills in this area.

Matt at QMT may have some used machines in inventory as well.


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## Navy Chief (Mar 16, 2015)

Used is a possibility, I am hesitant to enter that market right now due to my inexperience with the machines, I don't want to end up with an ongoing project or a lemon because I was not aware of an issue, or did not know what to look for.


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## GA Gyro (Mar 16, 2015)

compsurge said:


> Skip the pain, buy a 3/4 or full size knee mill
> 
> (I'm serious)



AGREE!!!!!


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## Navy Chief (Mar 16, 2015)

hmmmm... There seems to be a trend here. I need to listen to my initial thoughts and go for the 935... My CFO is not going to like this, it seems to me that to really get the most out of the 935 I may as well order a 1340GT lathe to go with it... So what is the current market price for a kidney?


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## wrmiller (Mar 16, 2015)

This 'trend' always exist here. It starts with a question about what (insert machine type of choice here) should I buy? You can even apply qualifiers like price, size, space, and these may even be addressed at first. Then it goes down a rabbit hole and you are told to go buy some used 2-3000 lb that may or may not be worth the cost of scrapping it because that is what someone else bought. It doesn't matter if you buy a good used machine or junk as everyone will soon loose interest and move on to the next question. I have a friend that did what was recommended by some and now he has a really large paper weight in his garage collecting dust. You really have to consider these suggestions from your personal perspective, not someone elses. 

But...if you truly can swing a 935 and 1340GT and will actually use them you should be quite happy as they are decent quality tools. If you can keep the CFO happy that is...


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## GA Gyro (Mar 16, 2015)

Yes... there seems to be that 'trend'... or if it is a bug... it has bit quite a bunch of us... 

I started out looking at a 1127 lathe only... and ended up with around $15K worth of machine tools.  I can say without reservation the machines are well worth the $$$ if one has the work to take advantage of them.  And for me... there may be a PM940CNC in the future... depends on something I am in the middle of proto-typing (sorry, cannot talk about the details yet).



The deciding thing for me... is how Matt at QMT supports his customers... and how much support information is available here at HM forum.  
IMO one could get in a real mess with little experience (me), and a machine with few places to turn for help.  

Will check in this evening... need to go chase a customer... we were talking about that thing called $$$...


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## Navy Chief (Mar 16, 2015)

The customer support aspect is something that is important to me with having very little experience with these tools, Matt and Quality Machine tools is almost local to me (I could be there in a couple of hours). That kind of support does not exist with purchasing any of the used equipment on the market, yes I could probably pick up a very nice used Bridgeport, it is going to be huge in size and weight, and there is the risk of picking up a very nicely polished lemon that never works right. If I spend the money now it will only hurt once (in theory anyways) and then I can move on with enjoying working with the tools instead of on the tools.


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## jds (Mar 16, 2015)

Chief,
I bought a used variable speed bridgeport (advertised as like new condition), it is currently completely disassembled, needs new bearings, motor, all the ways need to be scraped, it might end up being an expensive heavy floor drill press (I have kept it as a constant reminder to never buy any used heavy machinery on EBAY that I cannot go over with a fine toothed comb).  I ended up buying a 1340gt and a 935 T-S (waiting to receiving them).  I wish I had purchased them sooner, like years ago.


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## GA Gyro (Mar 16, 2015)

jds said:


> Chief,
> I bought a used variable speed bridgeport (advertised as like new condition), it is currently completely disassembled, needs new bearings, motor, *all the ways need to be scraped*, it might end up being an expensive heavy floor drill press (I have kept it as a constant reminder to never buy any used heavy machinery on EBAY that I cannot go over with a fine toothed comb).  I ended up buying a 1340gt and a 935 T-S (waiting to receiving them).  I wish I had purchased them sooner, like years ago.



I had seriously considered finding a used BP and rebuilding it... until I read about scraping the ways...
That is something I cannot do, would have to pay for... and from the little I have read... not cheap.  

I agree... who wants to buy a project... I thought we wanted to build OUR projects...


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## tmarks11 (Mar 16, 2015)

We are always willing to talk you into spending 200% of your budget, and then some....

Mostly because many of us got talked into it, and we are just paying it forward....


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## Morgan RedHawk (Mar 16, 2015)

tmarks11 said:


> We are always willing to talk you into spending 200% of your budget, and then some....
> 
> Mostly because many of us got talked into it, and we are just paying it forward....



Uh huh...and you will thank us later


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## GA Gyro (Mar 16, 2015)

Morgan RedHawk said:


> Uh huh...and you will thank us later



Fully agree... it looks like too much machine... until one gets busy and determines it is maybe not enough machine (no machine remains enough machine forever... LOL).

How are you doing Morgan...

I FINALLY have both my machines... the lathe should be running in a few days.


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## Morgan RedHawk (Mar 17, 2015)

I am well, thank you. Hope you are, too.  I went through the which-mill-should-I-get a few weeks ago as well.  The PM25 was on the top of my list, being a size that will fit in my space and just within my budget.  Many of you (without realizing yall were doing it) talked me into blowing the budget and getting the 932...just like yall did when I wanted an 1127 lathe and ended up with the 1236!

I have not used the 932 yet, but I will say that it looks like a very sturdy machine and the cast iron base it comes with is very nice.  It seems like a good size hobby machine and fits well in a small space (I have one car space in my garage as my shop area).  It is the biggest machine that I have room for.

OP, I would suggest getting the largest, beefiest machines you can fit in your space and can reasonably almost afford.  I went over my budget on both my machines (not by more than I could handle) and am glad I decided to.  I have had to wait on a few other things like tooling, but it is nice knowing that my machines will handle anything that I will (probably) be throwing at them.

For floor space, I went by this diagram that I found online for this style mill:





Good luck with your decision, both of the machines you named are well liked by their owners, and Matt is great to do business with, so either way you should be good to go.

I will post up some pics of how I managed to fit everything into my small space once I have the mill up on the stand (waiting on the base to get welded and painted).

Keep us posted, and when you get it, post pics!


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## Navy Chief (Mar 17, 2015)

jds said:


> Chief,
> I bought a used variable speed bridgeport (advertised as like new condition), it is currently completely disassembled, needs new bearings, motor, all the ways need to be scraped, it might end up being an expensive heavy floor drill press (I have kept it as a constant reminder to never buy any used heavy machinery on EBAY that I cannot go over with a fine toothed comb).  I ended up buying a 1340gt and a 935 T-S (waiting to receiving them).  I wish I had purchased them sooner, like years ago.



This is exactly what concerns me about buying used, the person selling the machine is getting rid of it for a reason. Sometime it is because they are done with it up upgrading, and sometimes it is because it is not worth the time, money, and effort to fix. 

Unfortunately right now the budget is not going to allow for a PM935, the cost of the machine plus all of the tooling is prohibitive right now. Realistically I am going to end up with a PM25MV, or the Grizzly G0759 that I have been looking at for awhile (if they ever stock them again). The startup cost for these two machines is much more reasonable, and the work envelope on them will suit my needs for quite awhile (famous last words I am sure). 

I really appreciate all of the comments and input from everybody, it has been great food for thought. Now back out to the garage to work on cleaning and re-arranging to make room to actually work out there...


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## Patrick (Mar 19, 2015)

Navy Chief said:


> I am in the planning stages of re-arranging my shop to make space for a mill and I need some help. I am trying to decide between the PM-25MV and the PM-932M-PDF. I am really leaning towards the larger machine so that in theory I will not outgrow it as soon, but I need to know how much floor space to plan for each of these machines so I can figure out what I can fit into the shop space I have. My planned usage right now is making telescope parts, motorcycle parts, model engines, and of course making tools, etc. Right now all I am working with is a 7x14 Grizzly lathe, and adding a mill to the shop would really open up the possibilities for projects.
> 
> I am also wondering if there is any advantage to having the 3 axis DRO on these types of machines, is the down feed on the column accurate enough and smooth enough to use it as a feed for working, or is it just rough setup with the quill being used for fine feeds?
> 
> ...


Hi Chief,  Precision Matthews has good quality machinery in my opinion, I bought the PM836V because I got a really good deal and it is about 3/4 size to a full size mill. I also had somewhat of a space consideration and didn't want or need a full size mill. I  am retired and spend my machine time building scale stationary steam engines and locomotives. So far I have not had an instance where I needed a bigger machine. The variable speed drive is well worth the money as I tire really fast changing belt positions. If you are a retired Navy guy, I'm sure you have the ability and skills to manufacture a quill feed for your choice of machines if it doesn't have that option. Mine works really well, gives me better control of feed rate and a better finish when boring cylinder bores. The accuracy of my machine is comparable to any that I have worked on in the last 35 years in the machine tool trade.
Best regards
Patrick
Army Veteran


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