# Starrett 98 or Import .0002" Level?



## ShagDog (Dec 26, 2020)

Looking at buying a Starrett 98 level or one of those import .0002" accuracy levels. This is for lathe leveling (small lathe). I think the accuracy of the Starrett would be plenty accurate for me; however, it is approx. twice the price of the higher "precision" import levels. 

I have done some research and based on it, I am wondering if the .0002 levels or even the .0005 levels are too much of a pain to deal with (eg. too sensitive for initial leveling). However, the lower price is attractive; especially in light of the limited use of a precise level.

On the other hand, I could justify the extra price of the Starrett if I could come up with more uses for the level than just machine leveling. Are there any?

Looking forward to input.


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## projectnut (Dec 26, 2020)

I have a 6" Starrett 98 level and a 12" Moore & Wright.  The Starrett is accurate to .0005" per foot and the Moore & Wright is accurate to .0003" per foot.  I have used both to level machines and have never had a problem with them being so sensitive the machine can't be leveled.

I have no personal experience with the Chicom imports, but I'm not sure I would trust their accuracy claims.  There may be others who have had experience with them that could offer information.

*On Edit:*  Error on my part.  As mentioned by benmychree the accuracy level of the Starrett is .005" per foot.  The Moore & Wright is accurate to .003" per foot.


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## Jim F (Dec 26, 2020)

Digital Magnetic Angle Cube Gage Gauge Level Table
					

Portable Digital Angle Gauge with Magnetic Base



					www.igagingstore.com
				




Gets you within a few deg. then use the bar turning method.


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## benmychree (Dec 26, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I have a 6" Starrett 98 level and a 12" Moore & Wright.  The Starrett is accurate to .0005" per foot and the Moore & Wright is accurate to .0003" per foot.  I have used both to level machines and have never had a problem with them being so sensitive the machine can't be leveled.
> 
> I have no personal experience with the Chicom imports, but I'm not sure I would trust their accuracy claims.  There may be others who have had experience with them that could offer information.


Unless the vial has been changed out in your Starrett #98, it is .005" PF, not .0005  A #98 is not sensitive enough for machine leveling except for rough leveling, then go to a sensitive level, such as .0005 graduation.  Using a ,0002 grad would be a PITA.


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## RJSakowski (Dec 26, 2020)

Concerning bubble levels, they are one of the few instruments that are self proving; i.e. another tool is not needed to check it calibrate it.  It is also one of the oldest metrological instruments.  They are fairly simple instruments consisting only of a vial with either a curved cylindrical cavity ir a barrel shaped cavity and some sort of base.  The amount of curvature determines the sensitivity of the level; less curvature means greater sensitivity.  The other characteristic of a level is the uniformity of the base.  This is because a nonuniform base makes it difficult, if not impossible, to accurately reposition the level, once moved.

My preference is to go for sensitivity rather than brand.  The best level in the world, is of no use if it isn't sensitive enough to detect the changes you are making.  I elected to go with a 8" Asian level with a sensitivity of .0005"/10" or .0006"/ft. I have had no problems with either quality or use of this level.

Flatness of the base can easily be checked with a surface plate and some Prussian Blue.  If flatness is unsatisfactory, it can be corrected by lapping.


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## mikey (Dec 26, 2020)

I have both a Starrett 98-6 and a Kinex precision level sensitive to 0.0002"/10". The Kinex is so sensitive that minute changes will send the bubble off scale so I use the 98-6 to get close, then switch to the Kinex for fine-tuning. By close, I mean the 98-6 is nearly dead on level, at which point the Kinex is still well off center. It then takes just a short bit of fussing to bring the Kinex in to center. At this point, I am a cut or two away with a 2-collar test of being done. Having both levels greatly speeds up the leveling process and I would not want to be without both. 

Shag, watch ebay for a used 98-6; mine was near mint and cost me less than $50.00. It is more than good enough to get you close. You can either opt to buy a import precision level or just go to a 2-collar test.


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## JPMacG (Dec 26, 2020)

RJ, could you tell us what brand import level you have?  I have been burned on inexpensive import tooling, so I want to choose wisely.


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## RJSakowski (Dec 26, 2020)

JPMacG said:


> RJ, could you tell us what brand import level you have?  I have been burned on inexpensive import tooling, so I want to choose wisely.


I bought mine on eBay from DBM Importers in 2017.  It is an unbranded level.  It looks very similar to this one. https://www.amazon.com/Taytools-467...ywords=machinist+level&qid=1609011836&sr=8-18


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## Buffalo21 (Dec 26, 2020)

I have an 8” from Grizzly and 12” from Enco, both work perfectly

both look identical to the one posted by RJ


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## Tim9 (Dec 26, 2020)

Personally I have a Starrett 98. That’s because it was what I could find at a fair price On Amazon. I also have a more sensitive level from some New Jersey company which I picked up off of eBay.
I didn’t see any Asian import levels at the time. I do think I would want a level with a ground cast iron base. Aluminum is just too soft and once nicked, then I’d have a damaged level.
  All that said, if I did buy an Asian level with a cast iron base, I surely would be inclined to find one made in Taiwan. I think a lot of the Grizzly stuff and Enco stuff was sourced from Taiwan. That’s  just my take. But, in the last year, the Chinese stuff is getting much better.  I buy a lot of Chinese stuff and I think the quality is improving a lot. Heck, the Indian stuff is getting better. It’s not hard for a business to manufacture high quality items . But, the business has to want to build a high quality item. And some of the chicom stuff is definitely a roll of the dice. I have purchased some crap. And I have also received some really impressive Chinese and Indian stuff.
  But, a level is something that I’d want to be pretty good since a lot of the rest of your work is based on whether or not your lathe has a twisted bed. And yeah, I know there are other ways to check for this. But they take more time.


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## ShagDog (Dec 26, 2020)

Those of you that start with a 98, would it be hair pulling to bypass the 98 and go straight to the .0002 or .0005 level? I am really inclined to go with a .0002 (based on price); however, although I like to tinker and chase tenths , I don't want to be cursing the thing .


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## Tim9 (Dec 26, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> I bought mine on eBay from DBM Importers in 2017.  It is an unbranded level.  It looks very similar to this one. https://www.amazon.com/Taytools-467...ywords=machinist+level&qid=1609011836&sr=8-18


I’d have absolutely no problem with that level. Looks pretty nice.


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## mikey (Dec 26, 2020)

I don't have a whole lot of hair left so I use the 98 to get close first. The bubble on a precision level is extremely sensitive and can take up to a minute to settle. Even though my lathe has precision levelers under the lathe it would take some time to level it with a precision level if I didn't get it close with something less sensitive. 

One option is to buy a precision level and just use a torpedo level (that you may already own) first to get you close, then switch to the precision level. A Starrett 98 is not all that sensitive and I bet a torpedo level will work nearly as well.


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## ShagDog (Dec 26, 2020)

mikey said:


> I don't have a whole lot of hair left so I use the 98 to get close first. The bubble on a precision level is extremely sensitive and can take up to a minute to settle. Even though my lathe has precision levelers under the lathe it would take some time to level it with a precision level if I didn't get it close with something less sensitive.
> 
> One option is to buy a precision level and just use a torpedo level (that you may already own) first to get you close, then switch to the precision level. A Starrett 98 is not all that sensitive and I bet a torpedo level will work nearly as well.



Thanks. I did get the lathe as "level" as I could with a carpenter's level. Of course, we are talking about twist. The lathe sits on garage concrete pad that naturally has a drainage slope, making the lathe consistently, as readable with the carpenter's level, sloping in the same direction of the floor (about .045"; shim used to determine).

As such, I would think that the level will need a shim on one side when comparing measurements in order to get the bubble near the middle; is that right? Then you would measure with the shim underneath. This is the part that concerns me with the .0002" level that I have my eye on. Would it be too difficult to get the .0002" level so that you could see the bubble near the middle?


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## Dabbler (Dec 26, 2020)

@ShagDog I have some actual experience with both kinds.  I have a Moore and Wright that is .003 per foot, AND an offshore .0002 per foot.

The Moore and Wright works so well it is a dream to use.  I'm sure a Starrett would do just as well.  

I tried to use the ,0002 one multiple times and it is useless.  First, your are chasing unnecessary precision that is nearly impossible to get close enough to get between the bubbles.  It also needs re-calibrating every time it comes out of the drawer.  A piece of junk, really. I regret the purchase.


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## RJSakowski (Dec 26, 2020)

The point to remember is that a .0005"/12" level is 10x more sensitive than a Starrett 98.  What would be one division of deflection of the 98 would be ten divisions on a .0005"/10" level.  You don't have to wait for the bubble to stop quivering to make an initial alignment.  If the whole bubble is visible on the scale, you are still better than the 98.  

It takes less than ten seconds for the bubble to settle enough for me to assess the situation sufficiently to make an adjustment.  As I close in on the alignment I allow more time for the bubble to settle but it is really only for the last few tweaks that I have to wait for the bubble to stop moving.


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## mksj (Dec 26, 2020)

Agree with RJ, do not see that a  Starrett 98 is anywhere close to sensitive if you need to get the bed of a lathe level. If it is a small lathe with poor tolerances than just about anything is better than nothing. If you go by lathe manuals the standard is  0.0005" over 10-12", there are lots of inexpensive Chinese versions for around $70, they all work about the same. Sometimes you can find a Polish VIS in very good condition for not much more. I find an 8" works well between the lathes, 12" is probably too long. Also look for older Folwer and SPI that were rebranded precision levels, I have an SPI which which was made by EDA and was $150 new in the box.

Fowler which is made by VIS








						Fowler 12" Precision Machinist Level  | eBay
					

The level has integral plastic gripping rounds to insulate against body heat transfer while handling, for maximum accuracy. The scraped bottom surfaces show no wear. Unit has a cast iron body and weighs approx.



					www.ebay.com
				



Kinex





						Kinex 5050-02-150 6 Inch Precision Inspection Machinist Spirit Level, Overall Size 6 x 1-5/8 x 1-1/2 Inches, Accurate to 0.00078 Inches per Meter - - Amazon.com
					

Kinex 5050-02-150 6 Inch Precision Inspection Machinist Spirit Level, Overall Size 6 x 1-5/8 x 1-1/2 Inches, Accurate to 0.00078 Inches per Meter - - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com


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## AmericanMachinist (Dec 27, 2020)

You asked about other uses.... I've used a 98 to level a side-load washing machine (on top of an aluminum extrusion spanning the body)... and to level a freezer to be able to fill a large tray fully with liquid without it spilling.  Never would want to mess with 0.0002" bubbles for that.   And I've learned my lesson on import stuff so the starrett keeps me satisfied.


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## NC Rick (Dec 27, 2020)

The Starrett is a wonderful bit of true Starrett still made in the USA at the old facility on many of the old machines.  I have two, one of which was given to me, the other I purchased new and directly from Starrett.  The one give. To me needed some repair and all the parts are available from the manufacturer.  Tools can be much more complex to me than  "it works".  I am very proud to own these and enjoy them every time I get them out.  I bought it along with a Polish much more sensitive level when I was working on printing presses.  The Starrett is what I like for my lathe.  Two of them is really nice when doing that.  I use them and a test bar.


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## davidpbest (Dec 27, 2020)

I have the Starrett 199 which is ideal, but a machinist friend of mine *makes these* which are nearly as accurate.


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## francist (Dec 27, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> but a machinist friend of mine *makes these* which are nearly as accurate.


That’s a really nice looking level. Are they aluminum, do you know? It didn’t say on the webpage — just curious. Very nice looking piece though.

-frank


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## davidpbest (Dec 27, 2020)

Yes - aluminum.  Not sure if 6061 or 7500.  Send him an email for specifics.


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## Choiliefan (Dec 27, 2020)

I'd go for a used Polish VIS master precision level such as these:








						vis precision level in Business & Industrial for sale | eBay
					





					www.ebay.com
				



They're quite nice.


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## PT Doc (Dec 27, 2020)

I bought a Starrett 98 and Starrett 199 after posting WTB ads on Craigslist. I used carpenter levels to get as close as I could leveling a 12x54 mill. That was set at a 45* angle relative to concrete floor slope. Both Starrett levels we used and it wasn’t too bad. Just matters how much patience you have.


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## john.oliver35 (Dec 27, 2020)

I bought a Polish .0002 level and used it to level my lathe bed before I did some scraping on the headstock.  I don't remember exactly which brand it was when I bought it and away from home now so can't look.   It worked well and I was able to control to less than single-divisions while doing final leveling via the lathe feet.  Don't regret getting it since the headstock turned out well (around .0002 per inch), then tweeked in withe two-collar method.


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## ShagDog (Dec 27, 2020)

Thank you for all the responses. I will hopefully be making a decision tonight. Although I mentioned that my lathe is a smaller one, I did not specify that it is a 1979 or so Taiwan lathe (Select 816) with 16" between centers, and weighs about 300 lbs. It came with cast iron legs with no leveling feet; but, it does have holes in the feet for a bolt.

I am still going between the Starrett 98 and the .00002 which is almost half the price of the Starrett. I can only have one of them. Note that whichever one I choose, *I will turn a test bar*. These are my summarized thoughts based on the various appreciated opinions in this thread As is apparent and expected, the opinions in this thread are not necessarily without some conflict: 

Starrett: Quality. Accurate to .005" which would make it easier to use, and might be good enough for my lathe especially with cutting a test bar.

.0002 Accurate Level: price is better, and it has a reputation of quality.  But, is it too precise (hair pulling), and do I even need such precision for my lathe, especially since I will be turning a test bar in any event. I like this one due to lower price, and its potential for higher precision; but, I don't want it to be a waste of money if it causes me too much aggravation. However, I did mention previously that I like tinkering; but, I don't want it to be futile.

So, the bottom line question is: In light of my lathe size and the fact that I will be turning a test bar in any event, do I need the higher precision of the .0002", or will the Starrett .005" get me where I need without the aggravation?


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## Watchwatch (Dec 27, 2020)

Starrett 98 + 2 collar test got my 1236 cutting within .0002 over 8 inches. It took maybe 3 hours 

Messing with the level was the worst part. I chased my tail around for a little bit. I couldn’t get the lathe perfectly level to the resolution of the level. Switched to 2 collar test and got it dialed in after 7 passes.

I found a NOS 8 inch 98 for about $100 on EBay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## projectnut (Dec 27, 2020)

ShagDog said:


> Thank you for all the responses. I will hopefully be making a decision tonight. Although I mentioned that my lathe is a smaller one, I did not specify that it is a 1979 or so Taiwan lathe (Select 816) with 16" between centers, and weighs about 300 lbs. It came with cast iron legs with no leveling feet; but, it does have holes in the feet for a bolt.
> 
> I am still going between the Starrett 98 and the .00002 which is almost half the price of the Starrett. I can only have one of them. Note that whichever one I choose, *I will turn a test bar*. These are my summarized thoughts based on the various appreciated opinions in this thread As is apparent and expected, the opinions in this thread are not necessarily without some conflict:
> 
> ...


Don't be hung up on the name Starrett.  They are good quality, but often times over priced for what they are.  There are several listed on eBay with outrageous prices.  One that caught my eye was a rusty, crusty, carpenters style one listed as "rare".  The asking price was a mere $89.00.  That might be a good price IF you collect Starrett levels and you're missing that one in your collection.  Other than that it's just a rusty, crusty piece of junk.  There are other less popular names that are just as good, and some a lot better.

There is a Fowler good for .0005" per 10" currently listed for $76.00
Fowler 12" Precision Machinist Level | eBay


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## NC Rick (Dec 27, 2020)

I find my very sensitive level to be too much for my mach tools.  I need to use the Starrett first just to find the bubble.    I don't care if my machine is off by a few tenths over a foot.  Others may not sleep well tho


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## AmericanMachinist (Dec 27, 2020)

Prior to modern cheap chinese imports what % of lathe leveling was done with starrett 98s and the like?   I bet a lot?

I think I've seen the guys on youtube (Abom, etc.) level with a 98 and then test cut to fine tune.  Seemed to work.

Its a personal choice but I just can't see buying something that may add no practical value, versus buying something you know will do the job, made right here.


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## ShagDog (Dec 28, 2020)

I finally ordered one. I decided on the Starrett 98. Thanks again for all the input.


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## addertooth (Dec 28, 2020)

The length of the base of the machine tool you are leveling matters too. For something long I would probably sweat it more, than something which is short and stiff. A short stiff item tends to twist less. For small benchtop lathes, I tend to cheat by putting the lathe on top of a granite slab to start with.


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## projectnut (Dec 28, 2020)

We used an 18" version of the Starrett 98 level at work to level lathes, mills, grinders, and all kinds of production machines.  These were not hobby grade machines.  Some of the lathes had a bed as long as 120".   once the machines were in place they were leveled and grouted in place.  The only times we had trouble maintaining accuracy were when a machine was hit with a fork truck or other large piece of equipment.


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## MrWhoopee (Dec 28, 2020)

When I first got my Heavy 10 (on cabinet base), I was sweating getting it leveled. I knew I could borrow a precision level back in Modesto, but, being impatient, I got it roughly leveled with a cheap plastic carpenters level and tried the 2-collar test. It cut within .0003 over 14 inches. Haven't messed with it since, figuring I could only make it worse.

This thread makes me wonder (again) why this group doesn't have a precision level for pass-around.


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## addertooth (Dec 28, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> This thread makes me wonder (again) why this group doesn't have a precision level for pass-around.



My hesitation would be that sometimes they get damaged or "de-calibrated" in shipping.


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## JPMacG (Dec 28, 2020)

For those of us with Morse Taper spindles (i.e. Atlas), why not use a morse taper test bar and an indicator mounted to the tool post?


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## addertooth (Dec 28, 2020)

JPMacG said:


> For those of us with Morse Taper spindles (i.e. Atlas), why not use a morse taper test bar and an indicator mounted to the tool post?



Some of us already do.  I have a rod which is MT3 (for the chuck spindle side) and on the other end is Mt2 (for the tailstock).  I can tell ricky-quick if the chuck and tailstock are out of alignment.


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## Dabbler (Dec 28, 2020)

I have used an inexpensive MT3 test bar onlly once.  It was so far out it wasn't even suitable as rough stock for a 2 collar test.  

It is so easy to use a carpenter's level or S 98 level and then do a 2 collar.  If you get a good one, it might speed things a bit.


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## nnam (Dec 29, 2020)

Talking about precision level, this person has been trying to sell this Starrett 15" for many years now.  I really admire his persistence.









						Starrett 15"Machine Level - tools - by owner - sale
					

Machine Level 15" $250 cash



					washingtondc.craigslist.org
				




I also own two of them. It follows usual pattern. I paid a higher price for the first one, then the 2nd one comes at a much lower price. I ended up get "upset" on the 1st purchase, and own the 2nd one  But I don't plan to sell them though.


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## ShagDog (Jan 7, 2021)

Update: I received my Starrett 98-6 last week; I am very impressed with it. It is plenty accurate enough for me. I can't see myself needing one more sensitive for my purposes. Got the lathe leveled and performed the cutting test. I actually also used it to get the minimal twist out of my wood lathe bed. Thanks again to all.


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