# Long way around...



## RossB

This may take me a while to explain, but I promise that it will eventually arrive at a discussion of machining...or how little I know about machining...or how I can make every project much more complicated and expensive than necessary.

This is my 1954 Willys CJ-3B



I like to spend my free time tinkering, rebuilding, or otherwise modifying it to suit my tastes.  Most recently,  I decided to replace the tattered front bumper with a design of my own.


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## RossB

I decided on 2x4x3/16" steel tubing, but I modeled a few options out of cardboard before settling on a favorite.




I figured I would angle the ends at 55 degrees to match the shape of the grill and then box them.  I rough cut it with the cut-off wheel and them used the Bridgeport to clean up the ends.


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## RossB

From there, I whipped up some end caps that I'll weld on later. 





At this point, I decided that I wanted some recovery points that I could use for d-rings.  My thought was that I'd run the mounts all the way through the bumper and tie them directly to the frame.  I looked on-line and found the perfect parts for about $40 each.



	

		
			
		

		
	
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## RossB

This, of course, is where I decided to make things much more complicated.  Why spend $80 on someone else's beautiful work product when I can spend way more time and money by attempting myself?  After all, I have THIS thing!


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## eugene13

Way to go, I do tube work in my mill, you can make some fantastic nice fits, keep the pictures coming.


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## RossB

I've had this Deckel rotary table/index head thing for about 20 years.  I think I salvaged it off of a horizontal milling machine that I couldn't even give away as my factory closed and we scrapped the entire machine shop.  I couldn't save the mill, but I decided to keep this really well built German table;hoping I'd have a use for it someday.


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## RossB

I tried to mount the rotary table on my Bridgeport and discovered 2 things.  One, the RT is metric, the mill is Imperial, and the mounting slots don't line up.  Two, the divider plate and rotating handle hangs down about 2 inches below the mounting base plate.  Problem.


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## RossB

A quick sketch and I was off to buy some steel.
	

		
			
		

		
	




The top plate would be slotted for the RT, the bottom slotted for the Bridgeport, and the spacers tall enough to clear the divider plate.

$40 for two 12x8x.375" plates
$10 for a few feet 1.5"x.75" bar

Now I'm $50 in and I haven't accomplished anything yet.


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## RossB

I'm a better grinder than I am a welder, but it's a very solid piece.


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## westerner

You have a stout piece of 'old school' tooling as the foundation of your project.
There is NO WAY you can go wrong....
Enjoy the build, and keep the pictures coming.


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## RossB

Next step, square up the top, the bottom, and all the edges.

So I cleaned up my table, stoned the burrs, and squared it up.


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## RossB

Here's where things got a little sideways.  I squared up the fixture and clamped it down.  I ran the dial indicator over the surface and found it to be a few thousandths higher on the ends.




Then I grabbed the largest, newest end mill that i own.


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## RossB

I found the lowest part on the table, set the quill height accordingly, and then started making passes from the edge.  I'm a rank amateur and this is the first time I've ever tried to clean up a flat surface.  It didn't go as well as I had hoped it would.




I made the mistake of asking a question on a Facebook machinist group and received like 150 recommendations.  Oddly enough, almost none of the advice was the same.  It was all over the place from "your mill is junk" to "you can't do anything without a power feed" to "youre using the wrong tool" (probably) to "pay someone to do it".  I suspect that it's a combination of not the ideal mill, potentially the wrong speed, and not clearing the chips away which allowed them to get sucked under the mill and score the plate.

Despite the looks, the machined surface is pretty flat and the low spot isn't too problematic.


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## RossB

I decided to.leave it alone for the time being and I ordered a 2.5" face mill with carbide inserts.  Maybe I'll have better luck there.  Another $90 on top of the $50 for material and I'm a little bit suspect of the pedigree of this tool.


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## Nutfarmer

Looking good. In the end you will have what you want and not just a copy of someone elses idea.


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## brino

Fantastic vehicle!
Amazing rotary table.
Great idea for the sub-table or lift-table. (Your welds look fine from here.)

Personally I would use a fly cutter and hand ground HSS lathe tool bit.
I have had good results with that......
-brino


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## Chipper5783

The RT is a very nice piece of kit.  I have the equivalent offering from Maho - looks very, very similar (same mounting issue you have).  I use the RT on my knee mill, by only using two of the bolts and removed the index plate & crank handle.

A nice looking stand you have made.  Take care, David


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## Dhal22

RossB said:


> This, of course, is where I decided to make things much more complicated.  Why spend $80 on someone else's beautiful work product when I can spend way more time and money by attempting myself?



This is going to be epic.   You spend the money and time and we watch for free.


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## RossB

brino said:


> Fantastic vehicle!
> Amazing rotary table.
> Great idea for the sub-table or lift-table. (Your welds look fine from here.)
> 
> Personally I would use a fly cutter and hand ground HSS lathe tool bit.
> I have had good results with that......
> -brino



I've never used a fly cutter.  I think I have one, but the HSS tool looked suspect and, while I have lots of blanks, I have no idea how to grind them to shape.


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## RossB

While waiting for the face cutter tool to come in, I decided to square up all the other edges of my adapter and to mill the slots for the RT.
	

		
			
		

		
	




I squared up the bottom plate by removing one clamp at a time, milling the portuin of the edge that was obstructed, and then reinstalling the clamp.


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## RossB

I still haven't moved the adapter plate from the original position.  I plan to leave it here until I put a clean, flat surface on it with my face mill.  However, I was terribly curious about my progress, so I set the RT on top to verify the location of the slots and the clearance for the handle/divider plate.




I'm very pleased with the location of my slots.  Honestly, this is the first time I've done something like this.  I thought, for sure, that my math might fail me when I started factoring tool diameters and datum points.


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## RossB

I swept the RT...just for giggles...not bolted down.  I have about .0005" variance across 8" - side to side and front to back.  I think that's probably reasonable for my purposes.  Also, it looks like my hand crank will have adequate clearance after I remove the 123 blocks.


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## ELHEAD

RossB said:


> This is my 1954 Willys CJ-3B


Is she for show or go?
Dave


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## brino

Looks great.



RossB said:


> so I set the RT on top to verify the location of the slots and the clearance for the handle/divider plate.



That thing must be HEAVY!

-brino


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## RossB

ELHEAD said:


> Is she for show or go?
> Dave


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## RossB

ELHEAD said:


> Is she for show or go?
> Dave


She's way too ugly for show, so it better be for go.  ( ;


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## RossB

brino said:


> Looks great.
> 
> 
> 
> That thing must be HEAVY!
> 
> -brino



120 lbs!  Kinda sucks for carrying around the garage.


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## RossB

Just realized that my clamp set for the Bridgeport will not fit on the RT, so I had to order a set of 12mm hardware before I can get to the actual job of making parts.




That's like another $120


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## Manual Mac

Deeper into the Rabbit Hole.
This scenario is very familiar.
I feel your pain.


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## RossB

It's my own fault.  When given the choice between buying the parts for $80 or buying the tools and learning how to make the parts myself for $400, I'll usually go the $400 path.  I like to imagine that it's the old "teach a man to fish" adage.  I get no satisfaction from buying things, but I love rebuilding or fabricating things.


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## RossB

I had never even seen the inside of a transmission or a transfer case when I bought this old Willys, but I've learned some things along the way.  I'm a big fan of jumping right in.  Of course, I've also relied heavily on forums like this one and talented guys who were willing to share their knowledge.


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## eugene13

RossB said:


> It's my own fault.  When given the choice between buying the parts for $80 or buying the tools and learning how to make the parts myself for $400, I'll usually go the $400 path.  I like to imagine that it's the old "teach a man to fish" adage.  I get no satisfaction from buying things, but I love rebuilding or fabricating things.


Me Too


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## NCjeeper

Hey fellow Jeeper.


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## mattthemuppet2

what a fabulous thread. the plus side to this approach is that after a few years of making tools to make tools to make something, you look around and realise you have most of the tools you need to make something. Until something odd pops up and then it's back to making tools to make tools


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## ELHEAD

RossB said:


> It's my own fault.  When given the choice between buying the parts for $80 or buying the tools and learning how to make the parts myself for $400, I'll usually go the $400 path.  I like to imagine that it's the old "teach a man to fish" adage.  I get no satisfaction from buying things, but I love rebuilding or fabricating things.


i don't understand why anyone would buy when they can build regardless of cost? Glad to know she is a driver. We have a M38 A1, have fabricated a number of things for. Has odd-fire Buick engine. Made a carb adapter to use a newer 2 barrel instead of original 1 barrel, due to changing from points to newer electronic ignition. Electric fan required temp. sensor housing fab. Fuel pickup assembly from a modern tank required an adapter ring ( original style impossible to find). Mounts for larger tallights from a Gamma-Goat. Original lights not too visible to modern distracted drivers.


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## RossB

Very cool rig!  I like the tear drop trailer too.


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## NCjeeper

Here is my money pit.


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## DavidR8

"Alex, I'll take the rabbit hole for $400 please"


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## NCjeeper

You sure you don't want the daily double David?


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## DavidR8

NCjeeper said:


> You sure you don't want the daily double David?


No doubt, I think the daily double is my default choice...


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## RossB

Going to need a lot more information about that CJ!  I see the 360 badges so what about the axles?  Gearing?  Lockers? It's very cool!


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## RossB

No good story ever started with "So, there I was, taking the safe and simple option..."


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## NCjeeper

RossB said:


> Going to need a lot more information about that CJ!  I see the 360 badges so what about the axles?  Gearing?  Lockers? It's very cool!


Sure.
AMC 360 motor bored 40 over with Howell fuel injection.
Behind that is a TF727 tranny and a Dana 300 t-case with upgraded 32 splined front and rear output shafts.
Front axle is a 1976 Dodge Dana 60. 35 splined inner and outer shafts. Detroit locker with 5:13 gears. Hydro assist steering.
Rear axle is a 1980 Ford Dana 70. 35 splined Yukon shafts. Detroit locker with 5:13 gears.
42" super swamper TSL's on re centered H1 bead locked rims.
Fuel cell
Onboard welder
Warn winch.


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## westerner

NCjeeper said:


> Onboard welder


This I assume is for your friends on the trail with less foresight than you?


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## RossB

NCjeeper said:


> Sure.
> AMC 360 motor bored 40 over with Howell fuel injection.
> Behind that is a TF727 tranny and a Dana 300 t-case with upgraded 32 splined front and rear output shafts.
> Front axle is a 1976 Dodge Dana 60. 35 splined inner and outer shafts. Detroit locker with 5:13 gears. Hydro assist steering.
> Rear axle is a 1980 Ford Dana 70. 35 splined Yukon shafts. Detroit locker with 5:13 gears.
> 42" super swamper TSL's on re centered H1 bead locked rims.
> Fuel cell
> Onboard welder
> Warn winch.



Wow!  That's a serious build!  Sounds bombproof!  Thanks for sharing.


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## NCjeeper

Thanks Ross.


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## RossB

OK...I'm back in business and I'm going to take another shot at milling a reasonable surface on my spacer.  Any ideas about a good RPM for this thing?  2.5" OD with a slow manual feed.


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## mattthemuppet2

depends on depth of cut and material. In alu, I'd probably run that at 800rpm or so with a 1mm/ 40thou DOC. In steel, probably half the speed for same DOC. Your best guide are your ears. If it's screaming and howling and your mill is banging around, reduce speed, DOC or both until it doesn't


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## AGCB97

RossB said:


> It's my own fault.  When given the choice between buying the parts for $80 or buying the tools and learning how to make the parts myself for $400, I'll usually go the $400 path.  I like to imagine that it's the old "teach a man to fish" adage.  I get no satisfaction from buying things, but I love rebuilding or fabricating things.




I found this on my computer, written by me about 4 years ago. No offence intended for anyone of a different flavor!
Aaron


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## RossB

So I took a few passes with the face cutter.  I found the lowest point on the plate and then went .020" below that.  The cutter worked fairly well with not chattering or squealing or anything ugly.  The surface looks better than it did with the end mill, but still not as nice as if it was on a surface grinder.  Its flat and smooth with no ridges so I guess I'll call it a win and move onto the opposite side.


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## RossB

My clamp set finally arrived for the 12mm rotary table.  I'm looking forward to clamping something down soon.


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## RossB

After stoning the machined surface and breaking all the machined edges with a file, I took the spacer off my mill and dropped it on the granite surface plate.  No wobbles and I ran around the entire perimeter with a .0015 feeler gauge with no luck getting it under an edge.  I'm going to call it flat for my purposes.


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## RossB

Finally time to address the other side of the spacer.  I clamped it back down to the table with the machined surface resting on the 123 blocks and then squared it up by running the x-axis back and forth with the dial indicator on the edge.  This is mostly to ensure that my slots are true and square.  The surface cutting could've been done by eye.


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## RossB

I then ran an indicator all over the entire unmachined surface of the plate to find the lowest point.  This side was lower on the edges and high in the center.  I marked the lowest spot with an "x" from a Sharpie and installed the face cutter.  I actually rotated the carbide cutters in the face cutter to fresh tips because I noticed a little squealing and some blue chips towards the end of the other side.  I assume they were starting to wear.  I brought the cutter head to the "x" location, lowered it until it contacted the work, moved it off the plate, then lowered it .015" more and locked the quill.  Based on my indicator measurements, I assumed that would guarantee that my most shallow cut is .015 and my deepest will be about .035".  There was about a .020" bow in the center.


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## RossB

So the 2.5" face cutter throws chips like an old playground merry-go-round throws 1st graders.  I just finally cleaned up all the chips from the last time I ran it and my garage is "tight" to say the very least...



I have shiny things in close proximity to the mill and, since it's raining outside today, I don't have a lot of options for moving things around.  I'll have to improvise.


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## RossB

This is my solution for chip containment.  I hope they're not hot enough to go right through.


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## RossB

I started cutting and, after a single pass, my shirt and shorts were totally covered in sharp little chips.  My family really doesn't appreciate it when I bring those into the house and then they step on them with their bare feet...so, once again, I improvise.  This picture is purely for your amusement.  My wife and kids were likewise amused.  I think it's a solid look.  Dont be shocked when you see it on the high fashion runways of Paris in the near future.


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## mattthemuppet2

I shave myself all over and machine naked


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## mattthemuppet2

Well, that's not 100% true..

For chip containment, some clear plastic shields on magnetic bases work wonders at protecting you and the stuff around the mill. Makes clean up alot easier too, especially if you cover the exposed T-slots on your mill table.

For your spacer, be aware that the act of clamping it to the table may bow it, depending on where it's clamped and how tightly. You may need to do the uncut surface and then turn it back over and lightly skim cut the surface you cut first. Do you have a way of surveying the thickness of the spacer on your surface plate?


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## RossB

I have a vernier height gauge.


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## mattthemuppet2

anyway of attaching a DTI to that? Maybe others will chime in, but I don't think a height gauge is the right tool for surveying flatness of a plate.


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## RossB

I guess I'm confused.  If I bolt my fixture to the bed of the Bridgeport and then sweep it with the indicator, why would I doubt the flatness?


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## talvare

RossB said:


> I started cutting and, after a single pass, my shirt and shorts were totally covered in sharp little chips.  My family really doesn't appreciate it when I bring those into the house and then they step on them with their bare feet...so, once again, I improvise.  This picture is purely for your amusement.  My wife and kids were likewise amused.  I think it's a solid look.  Dont be shocked when you see it on the high fashion runways of Paris in the near future.



Ross,
I noticed in your photos that you are a motorcyclist so just thought I'd pass along some information on one thing I use to help with chip control. I wear full face helmets so from time to time the face shields need to be replaced. I use the old face shields mounted on a cheap mag base with adjustable arms and just position it close to the mill spindle when machining. The curvature of the face shield kind of wraps around the milling cutter (within a few inches) and is pretty effective at containing about 80 -90 % of the flying chips.
Just some food for thought.

Ted


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## mattthemuppet2

RossB said:


> I guess I'm confused.  If I bolt my fixture to the bed of the Bridgeport and then sweep it with the indicator, why would I doubt the flatness?



I think there's a couple of disconnects going on here. 

First, you're machining the fixture to be as flat as you can make it. However, by clamping the fixture to your mill to machine it you may be inducing movement in the fixture that will then affect the flatness of the fixture. Think about how metal bows when you hold it from both ends or how you can bend something over a fixed object. Also by simply removing metal you may change the internal stresses of the fixture such that it will move/ warp when you remove it from the mill, especially given that it's a weldment. To figure all of that out, you need a surface plate (which you have) and a surface gage with DTI to map the surface of the fixture and see if it's truly flat - almost certainly it won't be.

Second, this is a pretty chunky piece of metal and if it's ever so slightly banana shaped, when you clamp it to your mill table you may cause your mill table to bow to match it. So even if you sweep the fixture and it looks flat, the X travel of the mill will proscribe a slight banana shape that partially matches the shape of the fixture.

That's why you need to check it at multiple points in different ways. Now, could be that you don't need that degree of accuracy, which is fine, it's not my project and I don't know the tolerances that you're working to. But it would be good to know what inaccuracies exist, so that you can either fix them or compensate for them in your work, especially when you get stacking errors (where multiple small errors combine to create one larger one).


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## RossB

So my 1"x2" steel bar showed up today.  My UPS guy could not have been happy.  I hope to do some cutting tomorrow.


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## Buffalo21

I have one of the Grizzly face mills, like the one shown, I’ve never been really impressed with the results, I think the tool itself is very well made, I think the finish issues, at least for me, have been directly related to either the usually cheap TPG or TPU inserts. I really believe they are a lathe tool turning insert, and are marginal as a milling insert. Especially on edge related cuts, the inserts do not like any kind of interrupted cuts. I have some really expensive inserts made by both Valenite and Mitsubishi, that have a much better finish, but are about 7 to 8 times the cost of run of the mill TPG/TPU inserts. I found the mill can work and have a decent finish, it all based on good quality inserts and a lot of trial and error.


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## RossB

Back to the project at hand.  I cut the 1x2 bar into 12" lengths and went about setting up for making those $20 parts that started this whole project a month or more ago.




The rotary table has a .25" pin at the center so I drilled .25" holes in the bars to reference off of.  I bolted my adapter up to the mill with 1/2" hardware.




From there, I dropped the RT in place and bolted it down.  This is the end result that I've been trying to get to for months.


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## tjb

RossB said:


> It's my own fault. When given the choice between buying the parts for $80 or buying the tools and learning how to make the parts myself for $400, I'll usually go the $400 path.


I call that 'tuition'.


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## RossB

I swept the table and was well within .001".  Its not quite as good as the Bridgeport table is, but not too bad considering the stack-up.




I dropped the bar on to the centering pin, used the .25" bit to find center for head, and then clamped down my work.




I offset the table in the Y axis by 1" + the radius of the cutter.  I then rotated the RT thru 180 degrees of travel just to make sure the path was going to work as intended.


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## RossB

I'm pretty sure that this wasn't the ideal mill for the job, but its sharp and it cuts well so I took a shot with a few shallow passes.


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## BGHansen

RossB said:


> I'm pretty sure that this wasn't the ideal mill for the job, but its sharp and it cuts well so I took a shot with a few shallow passes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 323203


Looks great and must be gratifying after the long way around. . .  Bet you're building up your arm with all that hand cranking on that massive rotary table to boot!

Bruce


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## Downunder Bob

RossB said:


> 120 lbs!  Kinda sucks for carrying around the garage.



You could bore some decent size holes in the top and bottom plates, make it lighter without losing strength or usefulness.


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## RossB

I went as low as I dared and then flipped the bar.  I suppose that I could've put spacers under it and made all my cuts without moving it, but then the reference pin on the RT wouldn't have reached the bar stock.  Live and learn I guess.



Not perfect.  There are definitely some tool marks that I can't explain, but the radius is good.


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## RossB

I cleaned them up a little on the belt sander and now I'm waiting for a 7/8" drill bit to enlarge those holes.  I'd really like to put a 1/8" radius on all the edges, but I'm not sure what the best tool for that job would be...

Suggestions?



I'm pretty sure that my Porter Cable router is NOT up to that task.


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## Buffalo21

plate beveler


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## RossB

Seems like that may drive the cost of my $20 parts right through the ceiling.


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## BGHansen

You could use an 1/8" corner rounding end mill, looks like a corner rounding router bit with no ball bearing at the center.  It'd be a piece of cake with your set up on the rotary table.  I've got a link to one from Penn Tool Co. below, $9 plus shipping.  

I'd move off in the X and creep the tool into the work.  Adjust your Z until the tool is a touch short of the 1/8" depth.  Go too far and you'll get a ridge on the part.  Then rotate your table to cut the rad around the radius.  I'd think with this minimal depth of cut, you could pull your clamps on one side of the part and run along the X.  Replace the clamps, pull from the opposite side and repeat.  I like how you think, the 1/8" radius would be a nice touch on the part.

Bruce


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## RossB

Excellent!  I'm tracking on exactly what you're describing.  Time to place an order!


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## RossB

I just ordered 4 rounding end mills in various radiusesess (radii?)  We'll just add that to my "tuition".


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## Dhal22

I think more s'ess are needed.   Radiusessess.


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## tjb

RossB said:


> I just ordered 4 rounding end mills in various radiusesess (radii?)  We'll just add that to my "tuition".


Keep ordering in volume like that and you'll probably qualify for a partial scholarship.


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## BGHansen

tjb said:


> Keep ordering in volume like that and you'll probably qualify for a partial scholarship.


Ah yes, we may not always be helpful with solutions but we'll come up with ideas to spend your money.  Naturally, a file over the edges would work too. Won't be long and someone will suggest a CNC mill. With a tool changer.

Bruce


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## RossB

The rounding mills worked perfectly and I ended up with a 5/32" radius all around.



A little clean up on the belt sander and I was pretty pleased with the outcome.


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## RossB

Today was the day when I finally cut the holes in the bumper for the bars to pass through.



After measuring and measuring and doing more math than a typical Saturday, I banged out the holes.  I plunged a 1/2" mill to rough the 1"x2" holes.  I used the 1/2" because it had a 1/2" shank and it was long enough to mill the front hole and the back hole without disturbing my set up.  I went back and cleaned the holes with a 5/32" mill.



I think I hit it pretty close.


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## RossB

I


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## tjb

RossB said:


> View attachment 325221
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> I
> 
> View attachment 325222


Looks good!


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