# Interesting Article:  Why Crappy Tools?



## Charles Spencer (Jan 20, 2016)

I found this article interesting.  I don't agree with everything but a lot of what he says makes sense.

http://hackaday.com/2016/01/18/whats-in-a-tool-a-case-for-made-in-usa/


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## mzayd3 (Jan 20, 2016)

I often wonder if the Chinese make products for themselves as crappy as they make them for us...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## planeflyer21 (Jan 20, 2016)

mzayd3 said:


> I often wonder if the Chinese make products for themselves as crappy as they make them for us...



I would say yes.


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## Chipper5783 (Jan 20, 2016)

Buyer beware.  I've seen good products and bad products from all the usual sources the make stuff.


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## joshua43214 (Jan 20, 2016)

The article is engineers fantasy.
Crescent is owned by Apex, the same company that owns so many of our beloved brands such as Jacobs, Delta, Armstrong, and others that have gone to crap in the last few years.
The Chinese are perfectly able to have design meet intent. In the case of the Crescent Wrench, they have done exactly that, the intent is to make maximum profit from a quality name before the name goes bad and they liquidate the brand.
The cost of moving a factory is China is substantial, and requires a great deal of representation there by the company. There is nothing stopping the same company from employing a full time engineer or group of engineers to oversee start up operations, and to ensure that the product meets specifications. The only reason this would not be done is because the company simply does not care about quality.


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## Uglydog (Jan 20, 2016)

Perhaps this is not limited to Chinese imports.
Is VW on the same track?
How do corporations meet the perceived needs of customers and leverage a profit for owners/shareholders.
This is a delicate balance.
I'd like to suggest that we, the US consumer promote acceptance of poor quality everytime we knowingly buy cheap knowing it will not perform.
I'm not advocating against HF or import. They have some great product.

Is this any different than how you make your own parts in your own shop?
We work to tolerance. You decide the tolerance, or your wife tells you what it is...
Regardless, if you loosen your tolerance you might save costs and make it faster. Thus, your investment is less.
I'm now economist, nor a solvent shop owner. 
I'm merely suggesting we own this problem. If it is a problem. 
Perhaps they are just working within the tolerances we, the end user are expecting. Moreover, we are willing to pay for.....
Nothing against HF or imports. Hope I didn't offend!

Daryl
MN


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## ARKnack (Jan 20, 2016)

First I most say it was a good article. China can make very good tools. The USA an Europe can make cheap crappy tools. Sometimes it is had to tell when purchased. The sad part is you use to be able to go by brand name. Not any more. So many companies have sold the name to the dollar sign devil.  It is truly a buyer be ware economy. The other problem which we are all guilty of is we buy by price many of time. Look how many artica like there are on improving/correcting problems on tools we buy. Also many good companies charge a primium for there stuff. I would love to to have all snap on tools but I can't afford their manufacturer suggested price. Also some S.O. tools I did purchase have been nothing but rebranded junk.

I'm quiting my rant now


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## joshua43214 (Jan 20, 2016)

@Uglydog 
I agree with you. This is something we as consumers are mostly responsible for. I have no quarrel with companies like HF and their business model.
We pay premium price for brands such as Jacobs and expect Jacobs to deliver on quality. Both Jacobs and HF have good and more or less ethical business models. HF promises cheap imports at low price, Jacobs promises a premium tool at a premium price.

My frustration lies with companies like Apex who buy reputable brands for the sole purpose of banking on the name. This is not what we asked for as consumers. We wished for Jacobs quality at HF prices, but we also understand the two are mutually exclusive.

Not very long ago, Delta was considered one of the premier tool makers in the world. They charged the same premium price for years after they became no better than HF. Now they are just using the last of their good name selling to the hand full of people who have not heard that Delta is trash. 10 years from now, Jacobs will have the same reputation for being nothing more than a big box store cheap Chinese import.

China has a long history and culture of being very inventive and creative working with materials and sciences. They are very much like Americans in being able to just make things work. They are totally able to produce first class products, and will. Apple has proven that, as have other brands that manufacture in China and still deliver a quality product.


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## David VanNorman (Jan 20, 2016)

If you find You bought junk you need to tell the people you bought it from. If they are smart they will make it right. If they don't you need to tell everyone you talk to. The word will get around.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Jan 20, 2016)

The Chinese should be able to make stuff better than us. They are certainly not stupid.  There's a never ending supply of engineers, They have the latest new equipment, we have 20 and 50 year old stuff. But they don't . I think it's cultural, a what can we get away with and a quick buck mentality.  At our end there is too much buying into the Walmart advertising. Once apon time buying tools hurt. But those tools lasted lifetimes.


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## Dan_S (Jan 20, 2016)

it goes in cycles, and has throughout human history.  200+ years ago America was what China is now.

Basically a developing area is desperate for money, so it will make anything it can for anyone. Over time as the labor force becomes more skilled and more accustom to a better standard of living cost goes up. Eventually either do to conflicts with retailers (the person re-branding and selling the product), or just to make a higher profit, the manufacture goes it alone. This is when everything changes, as now the world is aware of the manufacture, they are no longer an unnamed supplier.  Thus they will either quickly improve everything, or become know by the general consumer as a manufacture of crap. It's interesting i think, because crap direct sales manufactures don't last long, but crap retailers seem to live forever.


When I was young, I can remember my great grandmother complaining that everything made in japan was crap, mainly because she live the post WW2 period when that was probably not far from the truth. Today, i think you would be hard pressed to find many people that think stuff made in Japan is crap.


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## Charles Spencer (Jan 21, 2016)

Downwindtracker2 said:


> The Chinese should be able to make stuff better than us. They are certainly not stupid.  There's a never ending supply of engineers, They have the latest new equipment, we have 20 and 50 year old stuff. But they don't . I think it's cultural, a what can we get away with and a quick buck mentality.  At our end there is too much buying into the Walmart advertising. Once apon time buying tools hurt. But those tools lasted lifetimes.



Forty years ago I was newly married and working in a die shop.  They provided most things that I needed to work with, but it made sense to buy some basic tools.  Among other things, I bought a 2 1/2 lb cross peen engineers hammer.  It cost $9.00.  I was making around $4.00 an hour, which was more than twice the minimum wage.  So I'd guess that the price would be around $40.00 - $45.00 today.  It's beautiful and I still have it.  At that time you could buy a sand cast claw hammer in the discount department stores for around $2.00.  They were cheap in every sense of the word.  They were made in the USA also.  Crap has always been with us.

I liked your post but I would have said that the Chinese should be able to make things as well as us, not better.


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## ScrapMetal (Jan 21, 2016)

The thing is, the Chinese can, and do build quality.  The reason we don't tend to see any of it is because the stuff we do see is built to a price-point and is aimed at a particular market.  The majority of those who shop for tools have no concept of "quality".  To them a wrench is a wrench so they want to buy the cheapest one they can get.  Since a higher quality wrench would be more expensive they take as many shortcuts as they can using the cheapest materials to produce the cheapest tool possible for the American consumer.  If we were willing to pay for it I'm sure they could produce the finest quality whatever in the world.

JMHO

-Ron


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Jan 21, 2016)

Two short thoughts: at the beginning of WW II were attacked with weapons
better than we could make. It didn't take long before we designed better stuff
and made it better .We won the war because we could make stuff better AND
faster.  Somehow, we have since forgotten.-........BLJHB.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Jan 21, 2016)

Our local tool store chain, had a welder ordering a lathes for importing. Anyone can buy a seacan  of Chinese machine tools. So he orders some CQ6125 250x550 from XIMA , its very similar  to 10x22 SEIG that  BusyBee, Grizzly, or King sell.  Even at a deep discount, the stripped down XIMA was only priced a little less than the fully equipped SEIG 10x22.


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## 4GSR (Jan 21, 2016)

I've been in several manufacturing (machine) shops in China in the past 11 years.  They were tailored to making oil field products.  The particular city where this manufacturing was taking place has been doing this for the past 20 years where a bunch of ex Halliburton guys went over there and talked the Chinese government in setting up a facility to make a specific product.  Took them several years to get good at it and after about 12 years turned it over to the Chinese to operate without anymore assistance from USA.  Of course, these ex guys from USA came out of this venture smelling like a rose.  Most are retired, some have died off, and others still have a say in some of the stuff the Chinese are building.  
Most of the product I've designed and other product I over look for the USA owners is 98% built in China.  I don't foresee that changing anytime soon. The quality I see coming on the product we have done over there is excellent!  I work carefully with the Chinese quality control technicians almost daily, usually nightly at this time.  Materials being used are top notch per Chinese standards or Din standards they use for our products.  There is no inferior materials used! And they know it, too! Heat treatment is good, generally the hardness checks are on the high side of our specifications.  Physicals on materials are above average per our specifications.  
I have more to say-I'll save it for later. Ken


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## planeflyer21 (Jan 22, 2016)

The Liberal Arts Garage said:


> Two short thoughts: at the beginning of WW II were attacked with weapons
> better than we could make. It didn't take long before we designed better stuff
> and made it better .We won the war because we could make stuff better AND
> faster.  Somehow, we have since forgotten.-........BLJHB.



I would say we were attacked with weapons better than we could make _at the price point the government was willing to pay_.  Prior to the U.S. Civil War, when Europeans were saying rilfe had to be handfitted and made one at a time, a smart fellow here started manufacturing rifles to the thousandths of an inch, proudly boasting "Take ten of my rifles into their base pieces, throw them in a pile, then put the pieces back together and every rifle will function as intended." (Trivia: What was his name?)

But alas, they were more expensive than the govenrment was willing to pay.


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## Dan_S (Jan 22, 2016)

planeflyer21 said:


> (Trivia: What was his name?)



Colt!


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## wrmiller (Jan 22, 2016)

The consumer drives quality, not the manufacturer. If everyone was interested in top-of-the-line quality, then they would only purchase the best that could be found, and the makers of cheap junk would not survive. And there are some folks like that in the world, but they are rare.

The more common scenario is most people run around like a bunch of little chicks saying "cheep, cheap, cheap" and only look at the cost of the tool. THEN they go off on some *****/rant about quality... 

Happens all the time. It even happens on this site. (end of rant)


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## Downwindtracker2 (Jan 22, 2016)

Interchangeable parts are an American thing. Even during WWII both the German and the British were serial numbering the bolts of the rifles.  When the manufacturers changed over from the Pattern of 1914 to the Model of 1917 rifles, the US Army required that the parts, including the bolts be interchangeable, even between manufacturers. Winchester had some difficulty with this.


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## planeflyer21 (Jan 22, 2016)

Dan_S said:


> Colt!



John Hall, the rifle project taken up at the preeminent (at the time) Harper's Ferry Armory.  The rifle demonstrated interchangeability could be achieved, even though it had enough design issues (like burning the shooters finger) to keep it as a footnote in history.


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## Superburban (Jan 23, 2016)

In the US, Eli Whitney saw the potential benefit of developing "interchangeable parts" for the firearms of the United States military. In July 1801 he built ten guns, all containing the same exact parts and mechanisms, then disassembled them before the United States Congress. He placed the parts in a mixed pile and, with help, reassembled all of the firearms right in front of Congress, much like Blanc had done some years before.[7]

The Congress was captivated and ordered a standard for all United States equipment. Interchangeable parts removed problems concerning the inability to consistently produce new parts for old equipment without significant hand finishing that had plagued the era of unique firearms and equipment. If one firearm part failed, another could be ordered, and the firearm wouldn't have to be discarded. The catch was that Whitney's guns were costly and handmade by skilled workmen.

Whitney was never able to design a manufacturing process capable of producing guns with interchangeable parts. Charles Fitch credited Whitney with successfully executing a firearms contract with interchangeable parts using the American System,[5] but historians Merritt Roe Smith and Robert B. Gordon have since determined that Whitney never achieved interchangeable parts manufacturing. His family's arms company, however, did so after his death.


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## pebbleworm (Jan 23, 2016)

Here's another "first" for interchangeable parts:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/a-great-day-at-brooklands/?_r=0
Sewing machines, cream separators, and bicycles were really the cutting edge of the technology to make absolutely identical parts .  The guns/ armoury tradition was really more like making each part fit the parts you had instead of grabbing parts out of a bin and making an entire  machine.


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## WalterC (Jan 24, 2016)

When the Chinese went to the moon, I waited to hear that pieces of the craft were falling off. When that didn't happen, I waited to hear that they were calling Houston to come and tow them back from the moon. 
 They most assuredly did not use the same materials and techniques they used on the piece of junk tools I've had that fell apart.


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## george wilson (Jan 24, 2016)

Obviously,the Chinese can make top quality products. They can make rockets,etc. that work fine.

India is another country that is branded with making cheap junk. However,my friend Jon(who ended up working with me),was a journeyman at the Gunsmith's Shop in Williamsburg. He met an Indian visitor who ran an establishment called the Delhi Gunhouse(or something like that). His name was Rabbish(I joked about Rabbish';s rubbish,so can recall his name). Rabbish told Jon that shops in India could make anything he wanted in as fine a quality. But,the Americans porevented it because they demanded cheap prices. Jon was having a multi purpose 18th. C. gun tool,called a "gun Hammer" made,and was having trouble with USA manufacturers making his product at an affordable price. Plus,the USA companies were CASTING the parts of the multi tool.

Jon cgreed to give Rabbish a try,and ordered HAND FORGED and filed up gun hammers from him. The cost was still quite low,though Jon was paying Rabbish a good,high price as far as India was concerned. Jon got absolutely top quality gun hammers from the Delhi Gun House for many years. He sold them for something like 3X what he was paying for them. This went on for over 20 years.

Just goes to show that what the American public is willing to pay is driving the quality of imported products. The Chinese and Indians are not sitting in caves,beating out products with rocks!

The machines that Grizzly imports are made on the best German(I think) machinery,capable of very high standards of quality. What Grizzly has made and sells is based on what Shiraz(the owner),expects he can get the American public to pay.


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## tomh (Jan 24, 2016)

Key word  is
*Investors* 
They demand high returns on their $$$$ !   And the manufactures  have to meet to their demands.  
AND we love a good cheap deal


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## toolroom (Jan 26, 2016)

I just gotta insert this for kicks and giggles... I purchased a hole saw set from Harbor Freight some time ago. Never used it! Today I needed to use it on my drill press that I need to install the intermediate pulley assembly from Grizzly in. (ROFLMAO) I assembled this into my drill and found that the supplied drill was bent. O.K. so I went to check the rest and found that the shank was warped about 45+ grand? I ran the shank in my lathe and attempted to bore out the metric out of round drill hole to 1/4" for the pilot drill.
This thing was so warped and bent, I had to resurface the saw arbor, and freshen up what was left of it. My project was only a clearance hole in the plastic housing, so no real tolerance here. It did come out better with a 1/4" bored out pilot, but still managed to cut off center a tad. (still ROFLMAO) This fine instrument of superb  Chinese tooling seemed to find its way into my shop trash can.
LESSON: I'll buy one from Stanley!
toolroom


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## David S (Jan 26, 2016)

Opps "I'll buy one from Stanley". 

 I am very familiar with Stanley after they merged, bought out, took control of, however they want to spin it, Black & Decker.

Believe me China production is their friend now.  So if for some reason you don't want something made from China, suggest you look else where, or at least check the Stanley country of origin.

Now I have to admit, having worked with Chinese suppliers for 10+ years and visited suppliers there a few time, they are capable of making stuff that is every bit as good as the best you can find else where.

However if a customer wants something very cheap they will make that as well.  And unfortunately the only reason that they make cheap stuff, is that we..yes US,  keep buying it.

But again.  I am only able to do some types of machining due to the low prices that are available today that weren't possible years ago.

David


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## wrmiller (Jan 26, 2016)

And I could tell you guys about the crap quality of several recent 'USA made' tools I bought. And one was from Aloris.


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## Swarfmaster (Feb 1, 2016)

What's wrong is that we are too complacent to "push back" when we are met with crap.  The majority of Americans are younger and easily settle.  They have no idea what quality is and wouldn't know it if they sat on it.  The Chinese give us crap because they can.  They are smart enough to know that if it does not sell to change to model.  But the Americans still take the stuff.  I am reminded of the Japanese toys.  When asked if the Americans wouldn't be interested in their toys, the Japanese stated "No, our toys are to sophisticated for Americans".


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## Dan_S (Feb 1, 2016)

Swarfmaster said:


> What's wrong is that we are too complacent to "push back" when we are met with crap.  The majority of Americans are younger and easily settle.  They have no idea what quality is and wouldn't know it if they sat on it.  The Chinese give us crap because they can.  They are smart enough to know that if it does not sell to change to model.  But the Americans still take the stuff.  I am reminded of the Japanese toys.  When asked if the Americans wouldn't be interested in their toys, the Japanese stated "No, our toys are to sophisticated for Americans".



hey now.....

Imo the issue started with the baby-boomers, and their generations, throw it away and just by another one mentality. I'm 36, and most of the people my age and younger, are doing the best we can to find quality stuff when it's something we care about.


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## Swarfmaster (Feb 1, 2016)

Not this baby -boomer.


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## Steve Shannon (Feb 1, 2016)

Nor this one. In fact my kids (in their 30s) think I'm unusual because I fix things instead of replacing them.


Steve Shannon, P.E.


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## David S (Feb 1, 2016)

Not this baby boomer either.  I spent summers with my Grandfather at the cottage and he was a natural born repurposer.  I spent hours with safety glasses on straightening out bent nails taken out of discarded stuff.  He fixed everything and saved all sorts of "junk" in order to assist with repairs.

My kids have a saying "If it can be fixed in the shop...it can't be fixed".

David


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## JimDawson (Feb 1, 2016)

I have always repaired everything that it made sense to repair:  I have a shop, therefore I fix stuff.

I find the way my 3 sons handle broken stuff interesting.  The oldest (48) tends to throw away stuff, rather than repair.  The middle (42) likes the challenge of making stuff work again where possible, time permitting.  The youngest (30) will not repair anything.  It's not like he doesn't have the skills, he owns a successful auto repair business, and is a reasonable machinist.  A couple of examples;  A Harbor Freight floor jack that I bought years ago, the link that actually pumps broke, a 30 minute fix, went to scrap before I caught it.  A Milwaukee Mag Base drill, purchased at auction, about $25, plugged it in and didn't work, again off to scrap before I had a chance to look at it.  Wanted to beat him that time.

The point is that I don't think it's generational, it's more just individual personality.

.


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## Dan_S (Feb 1, 2016)

JimDawson said:


> The point is that I don't think it's generational, it's more just individual personality.



Of course individuality, plays a part. I was referring to a study I saw a while back, that covers social economic trends by generation. It normalized the individuality, because it was averaging 10's of millions of people together. 

Some of the things i can remeber from it.
1. The great generation had a higher standard of living than their children (baby boomers), Though they had less money.
2. Baby boomers have more money on average, but generally have a slightly lower quality of living than their parent, mainly because they live more stressful lives.
3. generation x (this is me) WE fall some where in-between are parents and grandparents with regards to quality of living  and  wealth.
4. Millennials have a very high standard of living, because they live vey minimally, but they also don't have as much wealth, because they tend to spend money as fast as they get it. 

All kinds of interesting trends pop up when you you look at averages across that many people.


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## Steve Shannon (Feb 2, 2016)

Steve Shannon said:


> Nor this one. In fact my kids (in their 30s) think I'm unusual because I fix things instead of replacing them.
> 
> 
> Steve Shannon, P.E.


I am proud to brag that while my daughter was in medical school she saved money by fixing her own car. She changed the ignition switch once, which necessitated disabling the airbag first and then reconnecting it. Another time she replaced the radiator.  Am I proud? What do you think? 


Steve Shannon, P.E.


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## Swarfmaster (Feb 2, 2016)

You just made my case again.  You should be proud your daughter is way out on the right side of the Bell Curve.


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