# R8 & 3/4” Shank Tooling Holder



## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

I am building a home for the R8 and 3/4” shank tooling for my knee mill. This will be a three level shelf, each shelf looking like a collet rack.

The shelves will each be a 14” X 14” square of 1/4” thick aluminum. I haven’t bought the aluminum yet because I am still saving up.

I am working on the three *frames* for the shelves with steel that I had laying around. Each shelf was made with 12 small pieces that I welded together.

Today I am side milling the edges of the steel shelves to make them flat & square.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

The deeper that I side mill, the more I mill off the edge weld between the two pieces of .125” sheet, in some cases milling off all of the edge weld.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 14, 2022)

Fix your clamps Erik .    Why aren't you using the heel blocks instead of 2 studs ?


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## C-Bag (Jul 14, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> The deeper that I side mill, the more I mill off the edge weld between the two pieces of .125” sheet, in some cases milling off all of the edge weld.
> 
> View attachment 413739
> 
> View attachment 413741


Your shaper would do a much nicer job


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## Jim F (Jul 14, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Fix your clamps Erik .    Why aren't you using the heel blocks instead of 2 studs ?


Clamps are upside down, also.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

I just read this. I will fix the clamps now.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

I tried the very best that I could, and this was my solution:


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## DavidR8 (Jul 14, 2022)

Hi Erik, this is what you should be striving for.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 14, 2022)

Exactly ! You're over thinking this Eric . 



DavidR8 said:


> Hi Erik, this is what you should be striving for.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

Thanks. I needed a visual. I have a lot of strap clamping ahead of me today, including drilling 1-1/4” holes.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 14, 2022)

Turn your clamps 90 degrees and get them on the larger piece of the frame also . That is why you're getting that chatter on the edges . You want a very solid set-up when possible .


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Turn your clamps 90 degrees and get them on the larger piece of the frame also . That is why you're getting that chatter on the edges . You want a very solid set-up when possible .



Yes, I definitely noticed the chatter!


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

Here is the clamp down for drilling the master hole template:


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## mmcmdl (Jul 14, 2022)

The back of the clamp MUST be higher than what you're clamping !   Once again , you're clamping the clamp and not your part .


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## mmcmdl (Jul 14, 2022)

Erik , put an aluminum pad on your plate . Raise the clamp up on the heel block and crank er down . You don't need the rear clamp as it is doing nothing . I would also move the plate edge closer to the mill table edge to reduce all the chatter .


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> The back of the clamp MUST be higher than what you're clamping !   Once again , you're clamping the clamp and not your part .



I noticed that. It seems like the strap clamp is engineered have just a wee bit of spring action after the workpiece clamps to the table.

I am really glad that you guys set me straight on this because I have had to do it for about a dozen setups in the last few hours. I am more than half done with the holes. I will upload a picture of the drilling.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Erik , put an aluminum pad on your plate . Raise the clamp up on the heel block and crank er down . You don't need the rear clamp as it is doing nothing . I would also move the plate edge closer to the mill table edge to reduce all the chatter .



I had it figured that the clamp in back is an insurance policy, as I have had workpieces break free in a drill press (years ago). 

Yes, I will put some aluminum pad on my plate. We want the strap to dig in to the aluminum, yeah?

I will try to move the work area closer to the clamp, but I am drilling, and I don’t want to drill in to my new table!


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## mmcmdl (Jul 14, 2022)

You'll get it . Just takes time and then it's habit .


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

This project has a lot of holes to be drilled in the soon to be purchased aluminum plate. I will chamfer all of those holes, so there must not be any chatter!

I will probably buy 3/8” or thicker plate because I want to fly cut the whole top of each aluminum “shelf” after my drilling and chamfering.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 14, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> but I am drilling, and I don’t want to drill in to my new table!


No , don't do that . The first witness mark in the table is a killer in your mind , just like a new car or truck .


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

Note that a lot of work on this project will not be seen. For example, almost this entire shelf that I am working on. If the work will not be seen, I am not too worried about the finish (e.g. the bottom side of the aluminum shelves).

Having said that, this project will not be painted. Like a collet or end mill holder, I will periodically apply a film of way oil to it.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 14, 2022)

Form , fit and function is all that matters .


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Form , fit and function is all that matters .



I also enjoy the journey, which would be a completely solo journey if not for this forum.

I definitely need to move the tooling from where it is now. I will upload a picture of the disorganized mess.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

Here is what it looked like in the shop when I took a lunch break.

I am drilling the holes with a 1-1/4” HSS end mill that I got from @mattthemuppet2 

This used end mill is in a TMX 1” EMH.

I am step drilling the holes with a large carbide center drill, & then a 5/8” solid carbide drill. Everything turns at 600 RPM, & I haven’t used any CF.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

Here is all the stuff that I will put on this tooling rack. EMHs, a fly cutter, shell mill, slitting saw, R8 drill chuck, 6” single angle cutter on a stub EMH, indexable chamfering tools, & my well used 82° included angle solid carbide chamfer mill.

I love my tools, but I love them even more when they are organized.














Well, back to drillin’ holes…


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 14, 2022)

ooh, very nice! That stuff is getting 100% more use than it was in my shop 

For big holes like that, annular cutters are fabulous. Literally cut like a drill and leave a beautiful finish like an endmill. And no, I don't have any to sell


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## Aukai (Jul 14, 2022)

When you get a little more solvent with your finances the annular cutters are the bees knees, much much better than hole saws.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

I finished the shelves (for now). Now I am turning the rust off of this .050” wall, 1-1/4” muffler tubing that has been sitting outside for 3 years.


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## erikmannie (Jul 14, 2022)

I finished it up with Emery cloth. Cheater!


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## erikmannie (Jul 15, 2022)

I made a lot of progress on this today. I went to the steelyard and bought three 14-1/2” X 14-1/2” square, 3/8” thick 6061 plates. It was $306 for those three plates + the cut charge + tax. They didn’t have any remnants so they had to get a new sheet. That helps me a lot because I want a nice finish on the top side. I am uploading a picture of Ian the steelyard worker bringing in the new sheet.

While I was at the steelyard, I bought some 1/2” flat head socket cap screws which I used to bolt the frame to the plate. It was a lot of extra work for this flush mount.

Along the way, I had to buy two HSS countersinks and 5/16-18 bottoming taps.

I found out the hard way how easy it is to strip aluminum with a HSS tap, so you will notice in the picture that one side has two bolt holes because one hole is stripped.


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## erikmannie (Jul 15, 2022)

Now I am going to side mill, as well as drill and chamfer so many holes in the 3/8” aluminum. That will consume the rest of today & maybe all day tomorrow. This turned out to be a project with a lot of drilling. I will upload pictures of this.

See below an old collet rack from which I am going to copy the hole size & chamfer.


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## erikmannie (Jul 15, 2022)

I am using a cheap import 2 flute, 3/4” HSS end mill. The first cuts were .0115” and .020”. The RPM is 900. I know almost nothing about machining aluminum other than to turn up the RPM and use a 2 flute. My feed is about 14 IPM.

After two passes, the finish is gummy with with some chips welded to the surface. I will brush off the chips in the path of the cutter.














Maybe I should switch to a quality solid carbide end mill?


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## erikmannie (Jul 15, 2022)

I made an adjustment: .0066” DOC, about 11 IPM and brushing off any debris in the path of the cutter.

I am very happy with this finish:




Wow, the camera is cruel on the finish! It looks great in person and awful in the picture.


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## JimDawson (Jul 15, 2022)

Your setups are looking better.  You are learning about clamping.  Now you need to invest in some MDF to use as a backer board, a half sheet of 1/2 or 3/4'' from Home Depot or Lowes.  Cut to size as needed.  That way you can work directly over the table and no risk of hurting the table.

Parts bolted through the MDF to the T-nuts under.



As long as you have rigid setups, carbide cutters are great.  That's about all I use now.  For those edge cuts I would use a 3/8, 3 flute, aluminum cutting carbide.  I rarely use larger than a 1/2'' endmill in my machine.  About 3000 RPM and 20 IPM or so.  Spray mist coolant, or just some WD-40 would be very helpful.


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## erikmannie (Jul 15, 2022)

It looks like the issue was climb versus conventional. Look at the difference.


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## erikmannie (Jul 15, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> Your setups are looking better.  You are learning about clamping.  Now you need to invest in some MDF to use as a backer board, a half sheet of 1/2 or 3/4'' from Home Depot or Lowes.  Cut to size as needed.  That way you can work directly over the table and no risk of hurting the table.
> 
> Parts bolted through the MDF to the T-nuts under.
> View attachment 413909
> ...



Jiminy Crickets! That is *very* different from my cutting plan.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 15, 2022)

Another suggestion, spritz the cut with wd40 or kerosene. It will reduce chip build up on the work and cutter, plus it helps flush the chips away. Smells nice too.

3 flute uncoated (HSS or carbide) is the way to go with alu


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## erikmannie (Jul 15, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> Your setups are looking better.  You are learning about clamping.  Now you need to invest in some MDF to use as a backer board, a half sheet of 1/2 or 3/4'' from Home Depot or Lowes.  Cut to size as needed.  That way you can work directly over the table and no risk of hurting the table.
> 
> Parts bolted through the MDF to the T-nuts under.
> View attachment 413909
> ...



Thanks for the tips. I got a huge improvement. I cranked ‘er up to 1700 RPM and increased the feed speed to about 23 IPM.

Unfortunately, I feel like I am too pressed for time to change the cutter.

I included a picture of the aluminum sheet that I have under the workpiece. The bottom of the shelf is a steel frame, and I figure that the steel is digging in to the aluminum sheet. I certainly don’t want anything digging in to the table!


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## JimDawson (Jul 15, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> Thanks for the tips. I got a huge improvement. I cranked ‘er up to 1700 RPM and increased the feed speed up to about 23 IPM.



1700 RPM is about 278 FPM on a 5/8 cutter, OK for aluminum.  23 IPM at that speed with a 2 flute endmill is about 0.0068 chip load, OK for a light step over, but getting it into the 0.002 range might give you a better finish. 10 IPM is 0.0029


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## erikmannie (Jul 16, 2022)

I finished the side milling on the aluminum plate. I also drilled the 1-1/4” holes (for the .050” wall steel tubing posts). I had the aluminum shelves bolted to the steel (shelf) frames for all of the above.

Using Dykem, I located & marked out all of the 1” holes that hold the R8 collets. Some holes will be 3/4” for 3/4” shank tools. The steel frame is still bolted to the ally plate. It will be (blindly) drilled as needed.








I am using a stubby solid carbide 1” end mill that I got from @mattthemuppet2.


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## erikmannie (Jul 16, 2022)

I finished drilling all of the 1” holes in one of the the shelves, only to be immediately overtaken with an overwhelming desire for a slice of Swiss cheese.






Edit: 

On second thought, I might need to sweep the floor.


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## erikmannie (Jul 17, 2022)

Here is the drilling setup. I move the ram (on the mill) out to drill the holes in the back. Also, I need to move some of the strap clamps to get to some holes near to the sides of the plate.

I move the ram rather than turn the aluminum plate around because I indicated the plate on the table. The holes are parallel & perpendicular to the edges of the plate.

The holes are set to varying distances from each other because the tooling has varying diameters.


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## erikmannie (Jul 17, 2022)

Today I finished drilling holes in shelf #2 of 3. I also faced the front & rear of one shelf, so this shelf is done:






I did the very best I could with a shell mill & fly cutter, but on the back end I used a very cheap orbital sander with 80 to 120 to 220 to 400 grit.

I will upload pictures of “the best I can do with a shell mill & fly cutter of the one that I am starting now. It will take me a few hours.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 17, 2022)

That will be an epic rack by the time you're done!


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## erikmannie (Jul 17, 2022)

I had an extremely rough time face milling the steel frame on the back. My 22 year old son was complaining about the noise & looking up the city ordinance, & then he ordered a decibel meter.

At one point, I was so focused on the workpiece that *I walked away from the milling machine (workpiece in hand, walking out to the side yard) while the x-axis power feed was still on*! Fortunately, I had to come back inside to get my brush. I was absolutely horrified to see the extended quill traveling toward the 8” vise. Who walks away from a milling machine while the power feed is still on?!

I caught a very lucky break, and I was able to turn it off about 4” in x-axis travel before a terrible collision. Lesson learned!

Another problem was that I had *failed to achieve full penetration on two seam welds*. Rather than do a welding repair, I decided to remove four .125” rectangles, and then I just milled the whole thing down a total of .125”. Now what I planned to be a .250” thick frame is only .125” thick. That will teach me to make sure to achieve full pen on my welds!

Here is the cruddy result of the nightmare face milling on the steel frame. I am so glad that this will be hidden. I almost forgot to mention that I had the RPMs set to 1300 because I have been face milling aluminum prior to the steel. I kept checking the inserts because I wondered why it was performing so poorly. You would think that I would be able to tell the difference between 1300 and 600 RPM.




The top of the aluminum shelf definitely did not require face milling. All I had to do was use the orbital sander with 80 to 120 to 220 to 400 grit. It turned out beautiful.


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## Just for fun (Jul 17, 2022)

Loos good to me.  How are you going to mount them?


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## erikmannie (Jul 18, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> Loos good to me.  How are you going to mount them?



I have 4 posts which are 1-1/4”, .050” wall steel tubing. These 36” long tubes will pass through the 1-1/4” holes in the corners of the shelf assemblies. 

I was going to braze them, but I don’t want to heat up the ally plates, so I am just going to TIG (socket) weld them *at the bottom only* of the steel shelf frames. That is why the frames are steel. I could have used ally tubing and TIG welded the ally plates to those, but I had zero money when I started this project, and I have a lot of this muffler tubing.

Once I weld it together, the shelves will not be removable short of cutting out the tubing. I hope that it looks really slick like that because it will be obvious that the ally plates were *not* installed after the unit was built.

I have to be very careful about distortion because there is less than .005” of a gap at the socket weld (.005” is a huge gap for brazing). I will only use tack welds until the whole thing is put together, and even then I will do a ridiculous amount of skipping around with my application of heat.

The fixturing is going to be complex. I am a little worried about distortion. I should just skip around & stitch weld all of those socket welds. 

My arc will be as close as .125” to the aluminum so I will have chill blocks on the aluminum. I will see if I can get it done with 50A.


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## Aukai (Jul 18, 2022)

Use some kind of attachment with rings for the shelves to rest on, then the shelve can be removable, and everything taken apart. Maybe roll pins for metal washers to rest on, then the shelves?


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## Just for fun (Jul 18, 2022)

I agree with Aukai, the roll pin and washers are good idea.


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## erikmannie (Jul 18, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Use some kind of attachment with rings for the shelves to rest on, then the shelve can be removable, and everything taken apart. Maybe roll pins for metal washers to rest on, then the shelves?



That would sure make it easier to weld it up nice & square. I won’t be able to touch this project for the next 5 days, so I can think about it while I am at work.

I had to Google roll pins. I found this:




So what is the idea? The washers are parallel with the floor, pinned in with roll pins, & how are the shelves fastened? I only left enough room around the tubing for a brazed socket weld (I measured it, and it is .315”).

Here is the joint:


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## erikmannie (Jul 18, 2022)

I am compelled to weld that socket joint, but that is only because I love to do that. Who could resist that .050” steel to (.125” to .250”) steel opportunity?

If we can think of an alternative to where I can break down the shelf, I would be just as happy to execute that idea on the shelf and then scratch my welding itch somewhere else.

I could also weld up three shelves and then connect these to each other with sleeving inside the tubes. I like to hide my fasteners where possible. I could make the sleeves (out of pipe) tight enough to hold it together yet loose enough to be able to break it down.

I am also thinking about putting this on wheels, adding heavy feet or (hopefully not) bolting it to the concrete floor. It was never going to sit on the thin walled tubing.

It will be regularly showered with chips, & I sweep almost daily. Locking casters would be good, if only for sweeping. I have no compressed air.


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## Just for fun (Jul 18, 2022)

Here is a quick sketch (Not to Scale) of what I was thinking for the shelf supports.


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## Aukai (Jul 18, 2022)

For the bottom plate, if you weld/bolt the leveling castors so the support tubes do not go through the holes, they are captured by weight. Tim's diagram is perfect.


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## erikmannie (Jul 18, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> Here is a quick sketch (Not to Scale) of what I was thinking for the shelf supports.
> 
> View attachment 414188



I like this idea because it keeps the shelves level.


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## Jim F (Jul 19, 2022)

You do realize Al and steel do not like each other, Correct ?


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## Aukai (Jul 19, 2022)

.


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## Jim F (Jul 19, 2022)

NOT, sorry.


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## erikmannie (Jul 19, 2022)

Jim F said:


> You do realize Al and steel do not like each other, Correct ?



I know that you cannot weld the two together. That’s why I put the steel frame under the aluminum shelf, with the idea of welding the steel frame to the steel tubing.


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## matthewsx (Jul 20, 2022)

Galvanic corrosion - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Use some very thick paint.

John


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 20, 2022)

I don't think this is going on an ocean going yacht


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## mmcmdl (Jul 20, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Use some kind of attachment with rings for the shelves to rest on, then the shelve can be removable, and everything taken apart. Maybe roll pins for metal washers to rest on, then the shelves?


Split lock collars . Fully adjustable and removeable would be my choice .


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## Firstram (Jul 20, 2022)

Weld the bottom shelf and use pins for the uppers, keep your options open!


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## erikmannie (Jul 21, 2022)

I won’t have time to work on this project for another 2+ days.


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## matthewsx (Jul 21, 2022)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> I don't think this is going on an ocean going yacht


Rust never sleeps.


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## erikmannie (Jul 21, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Rust never sleeps.



My project is going to Hell in a handbasket LOL.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 21, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Rust never sleeps.


Galvanic corrosion needs an electrolyte. Unless there's allot of salt water in Erik's workshop I think it'll be fine.


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## Jim F (Jul 21, 2022)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> Galvanic corrosion needs an electrolyte. Unless there's allot of salt water in Erik's workshop I think it'll be fine.


It take less than you think........


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## pontiac428 (Jul 21, 2022)

If the iron sleeves and steel bolts aren't rotting themselves out of all the electrolyte water cooled aluminum engine blocks around the world, then a collet rack should be okay with a little bit of mixed metals.  It's not like it's a bridge or a skyscraper or anything like that.  Although it's darn near a museum piece.


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## stupoty (Jul 21, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> No , don't do that . The first witness mark in the table is a killer in your mind , just like a new car or truck .



No , it's just a place to put your coffee cup to hide and then make a slight rust circle 

Stu


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## stupoty (Jul 21, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> No , don't do that . The first witness mark in the table is a killer in your mind , just like a new car or truck .


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## erikmannie (Jul 24, 2022)

I was too tired from my work week to even touch this project yesterday. Today (Sunday) I drilled the 3/4” and 1-1/4” holes in the last shelf.

I also did a quickie (flap disk) knocking down the high points (which were the high parts of 3 bolt heads) on the back side of the shelf.

Now I am going to make the last 3 posts. These are made from 1-1/4” muffler tubing. So I spent about 5 hours of my day on the knee mill, and my evening will be on the engine lathe.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 24, 2022)

That will be the collet/ tool rack against which all will be judged when you're done!


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## erikmannie (Jul 24, 2022)

Here I have finished the half of the tubing that is in the spindle. I am using a medium finishing carbide insert in a LH tool heading away from the chuck.

The tube is deflecting in the middle, but 2 spring passes take care of that. This cut is a radial .004”. My RPM is 900 and my feed is .004”/rev.


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## erikmannie (Jul 24, 2022)

Tube #2 was barely good enough. The deflection with that setup above did allow me to remove the rust, but the OD varies by up to .010”. 

Lathe filing and abrasives saved the day: 60 and 80 grit Emery cloth, green and tan Scotch-Brite pads, and finally just a lint free towel.


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## erikmannie (Jul 24, 2022)

For the last 2 tubes, I am going for a deflection-free setup. Instead of doing the tube in two halves, I will probably have to do 4 sections. 

All things considered, that will be better because the deflection is bad practice and a machinist shouldn’t spend that much time sanding!


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## Aukai (Jul 24, 2022)

Follow rest?


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## erikmannie (Jul 24, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Fallow rest?



I do have a follow rest right here. There is no reason not to have used it.


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## tq60 (Jul 25, 2022)

If you want to make it interesting and to appear weldless for shelves and to allow for teardown, just in case you decide to change layout of a shelf, or add one later...

Coaxial legs.

Center of leg is your existing everything.

Now get a tube that just fits over that and cut to the distance between shelves.

How to holding all together?

Countersink the top and bottom plates.

Make a plug that looks like a flat head screw with some length to allow a deep but not through hole to be drilled and tapped so a chunk of all thread can be used between the.

The bottom ones can be taller to form feet and allow you to get torque to secure it.

Top ones just flat with surface.

No welds anywhere,

Tear down easy.

Can change shelf position by changing tubing length.

Can add shelves by changing inner tube and all thread.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 25, 2022)

that is a clever idea!

A tip on managing deflection (other than using a follow rest ) - step rough to 5 or 10 thou shy of your final dimension using the CCMT insert you have in one of your pics, then do one or two full length clean up passes with a CCGT insert. Way way lower cutting force = less deflection and a beautiful finish.


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## erikmannie (Aug 2, 2022)

I have been too tired from my day job to do any work on this project for over a week. Today I got the day off with permission.

I spent about 7 hours redoing many of the holes. The 3/4” inch holes were not big enough to allow a 3/4” shank to fit in there comfortably (or at all). I used a 7/8” square end mill to make them larger, but then the bore had a terrible finish.

I used medium and large boring heads (see photos) to bore all of the holes in all 3 plates that had a poor finish. About 6 holes were not complete with regard to passing all the way through the steel frame, so that needed fixing. The boring made a *huge* improvement in the surface finish of the holes.

I also bored three 1-1/4” holes to 1-1/2” because I have some 1-1/2” shank tooling.

After all of this, I had to refinish the tops and bottoms with an orbital sander. I used a lot of 400 grit. I also sanded the sides and put a chamfer on the top side. I am such a huge “abrasives cheater”. One day I will get it done with a fly cutter.


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## erikmannie (Aug 2, 2022)

I still need to:

(1) Make 2 more legs,

(2) Weld it up. I’m going to weld it (stitch TIG with so much skipping around) because that was the original plan. The steel frames caused a *lot* of extra work (!) with regard to drilling & face milling the bottom side.

(3) Make the feet. I don’t have an idea yet for the feet. I would like them to be cylindrical and heavy. Maybe press fit or weld the bottoms of the muffler tubing into some steel round stock. I think that I should do all the work on the feet on the lathe before I weld the shelves on the unit! That way everything would be perfectly cylindrical, and I could control the overall length of the legs + feet.


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## erikmannie (Aug 2, 2022)

One idea for the feet would be to make thick steel bushings (e.g. .750” wall, 3” length) on the lathe. I could weld the .050”wall muffler tubing to this bushing, and then machine down the weld bead. 

If I wanted solid bottomed-feet (as opposed to hollow), I could then weld in a circular plug, or weld on a 1/4” thick steel circle. In all cases, these weld beads get machined down to flush.

Plan for press fitting into a machined foot: the foot would be in the shape of a very thick walled, thick based pencil holder. See the photo below of thin walled, thin based pencil holders.




Doesn’t the press fit seem like a cleaner plan? I could even use red Loc-Tite.


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## erikmannie (Aug 7, 2022)

I made the 4 feet for the legs today. They are just bushings made out of 1018 steel.






I am making leg #3 out of 4 now. It is 36” long, & I am using the follow rest for the first time.

I could not get the follow rest to work for 31” of turning (I still experienced deflection). Now I am doing 21” of turning, and everything is working fine.

Here are the pictures of me trying to turn 31”. Even at 380 RPM (I wanted to use 620 RPM), the tubing was bouncing.


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## erikmannie (Aug 7, 2022)

Here is a picture of what is working.

I have a HSS turning bit, 620 RPM, .005”/rev power feed, CF, DOCs are between .0005” and .0075”. I do a lot of spring passes. The tubing wall is only .050”.


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## erikmannie (Aug 7, 2022)

I will do about 3 more spring passes after these photos, but here is the surface finish on this muffler tubing at the chuck,




in the middle,




and at the tailstock:




It is difficult to get a good surface finish on 1018. In the photos, the tubing has a film of Mobilmet 766 (the CF that I use) on it.


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## erikmannie (Aug 21, 2022)

I am working on the last leg now. This photo is a spring pass over 22” of .050” steel muffler tubing. I turned it down .012” with HSS. The spindle RPM for the spring pass is 1200 RPM. The power feed is .005”/rev.

The CF on to the follow rest & then on to the work is intentional. I have the tool bit rotated a lot, and the follow rest is blocking direct application of CF.




Here is the resulting surface finish:








I will do this to the other side of this 36” long leg, & then it is on to files, emery cloth & Scotch Brite.

The follow rest sure gets in the way when you try to chamfer something, or at least it did for 1-1/4” tubing.


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## erikmannie (Aug 21, 2022)

I was working on this leg for a good 4 hours, but when I was sanding it this happened.

I started with .050” tubing, and turned that down to .035”. There was a high point on the tubing where I had it chucked it too hard. A 12” bastard file got into that, & that caused a 2” laceration in the tubing near the end of the tubing.

I knocked down the high points of the laceration. I figured I would shorten all the legs & hide the laceration in the foot. I continued filing & sanding. The pressure that I was putting on it with 80 grit Emery cloth overwhelmed the thin wall, & it collapsed at 620 RPM. My hand went into the work, but I got out of there really quickly.

I’m actually OK with this, because I would have had to shorten the whole rack by almost 3” in order to hide the aforementioned laceration in the foot.

My plan is to just make another one. I’ve already done so successfully 3 out of 5 times, so I figure I have a 60% chance of successfully fabricating the last leg.






Edit: the clean area on my hand is a very mild burn. There is a bruise halfway across my hand, behind the knuckles. I am going to go wash my hands.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Aug 21, 2022)

I'm very glad you got away with just that. Just like working on cars, you always have to consider where your hands are going to go when something lets go. Hope you heal up fast!


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## Just for fun (Aug 22, 2022)

Erik, Glad you didn't get hurt worse.  As Matt said, heal up fast.


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## Aukai (Aug 22, 2022)

You need to use a lot of ice for 48 hrs


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## mmcmdl (Aug 22, 2022)

I know this is after the fact , but think about how this could have been avoided Eric . This could have ended up much worse .


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> I know this is after the fact , but think about how this could have been avoided Eric . This could have ended up much worse .



I hold the emery paper in such a manner as to be ready to let go if & when the spindle rotation causes the tubing to suck it in. I leave enough space between my hands & the work to allow for more than my reaction time. If you get too close, it could suck in a thumb or finger. If that thumb or finger gets lodged in (as opposed to mutilated or torn off), your arm or entire body is going in with it.

Much in the same way, I hold the file in such a manner as to be ready if the chuck jaws or work hit the file & turn the file into a missile heading in any direction. You can guess the direction that the file would go based on the spinning jaws, but Murphy’s Law could surprise you there in a microsecond.

I am always mindful that the workpiece could break free, but I had never conceived the the work would *collapse*.

We are reminded not proceed until safety is assured, or at least maximized with risk & return taken into account.


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## mmcmdl (Aug 22, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> I am always mindful that the workpiece could break free, but I had never conceived the the work would *collapse*.


Thin walled material is easily packed with wet sand to avoid collapsing .  Glad you got out with only minor injuries .


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## pontiac428 (Aug 22, 2022)

Wow, Erik, be careful!  That big 16" lathe would not be forgiving if it caught you up.  The belts wouldn't slip to save you, it'd just keep turning.  Can we agree no more turning tin foil tubes?  If that ragged end were to slip off the live center under power, it'd be like a lawnmower blade swinging at you.  Thats an entirely different hazard than getting caught in the machine.  Were you still at 1000 RPM when that happened? 

Relying on manly reaction time won't save you.  Maybe you can see, perceive, process, respond, and react in a half second if you're focused, more if you're not.  In a half second, your chuck makes 8 turns at 1000 RPM.  Assuming no flesh slippage and a 12" chuck, that's 24 linear feet off inhauling potential before you even get to think to jerk your hand away.


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Wow, Erik, be careful!  That big 16" lathe would not be forgiving if it caught you up.  The belts wouldn't slip to save you, it'd just keep turning.  Can we agree no more turning tin foil tubes?  If that ragged end were to slip off the live center under power, it'd be like a lawnmower blade swinging at you.  Thats an entirely different hazard than getting caught in the machine.  Were you still at 1000 RPM when that happened?
> 
> Relying on manly reaction time won't save you.  Maybe you can see, perceive, process, respond, and react in a half second if you're focused, more if you're not.  In a half second, your chuck makes 8 turns at 1000 RPM.  Assuming no flesh slippage and a 12" chuck, that's 24 linear feet off inhauling potential before you even get to think to jerk your hand away.



It was at 620 RPM when it collapsed.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 22, 2022)

erikmannie said:


> It was at 620 RPM when it collapsed.


Well, that's a good thing, because I did my math all wrong anyway.  Now that I've had coffee and can think straight, you'd still be in trouble.

I usually remove rust on stock like that with a wire wheel.  It leaves the metal on the part, more or less.

Edit:  Maybe coffee makes no difference.  I missed the 1/2 second part the second time through, so maybe I was right the first time.  Either way, respect that hazard.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Aug 22, 2022)

Well the best lessons are the ones you survive to learn from, right? It's always a day worth celebrating when you do something stupid (like me falling off my bike last week) and it doesn't turn out too bad. That's why they call them lessons, not obituaries


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## Aukai (Aug 22, 2022)

^^^^^I thought if you fell off your bike as an adult it is all over the news


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## mattthemuppet2 (Aug 22, 2022)

I don't think I'm that important  I did manage to fall off in front of about 20 cars though, so that was embarrassing enough


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

I finished the last leg with no issues, & now I am TIG welding the feet on to the legs.

I started off my TIG welding afternoon by running out of Argon. Fortunately, I have a spare tank. Tomorrow morning, however, I will have to start the day by somehow managing to acquire a refill even though I have no money.

This welding job will be followed by machining down the welds to flush (where the foot meets the floor of the shop) + making all of the legs the exact same length, give or take about .010”.

Maybe I will get a good enough weld to post a picture. In the meantime, here’s my setup:


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

Here is a tack weld made with the fresh cylinder of Argon.


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

Here are photos of the 2 most presentable sides of the first 2 leg/feet assemblies. Also, photos of the penetration (or lack thereof) that I got on the inside.

The tubing is about .035” & the walls of the feet are about .250”.










Now we see why I machine down my welds. I like to machine them down to flush, so I need full pen everywhere.


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

There is almost always a second round of welding which serves to fill in the low points (i.e. underfill).


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## pontiac428 (Aug 22, 2022)

That should work out, Erik.  You've created some unusual assemblies leading to unusual techniques, which is great for practice.  It's a tool storage rack, which is the metal shop equivalent of a birdhouse or a cutting board.  It's the right place to experiment and try stuff, because if it works out, you'll have something cool to show for it.


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> That should work out, Erik.  You've created some unusual assemblies leading to unusual techniques, which is great for practice.  It's a tool storage rack, which is the metal shop equivalent of a birdhouse or a cutting board.  It's the right place to experiment and try stuff, because if it works out, you'll have something cool to show for it.



I made this project 10 times harder than it needed to be! A great example of this is these feet that I am welding on: these could have simply been press fit. Not that this has anything to do with the feet, but I was broke when I started this rack, & I had to use my scrap on hand for materials. 95% of my scrap is steel. 

I wanted aluminum for the shelves so that the shelves would not scratch the collets or shanks. I knew that it would take me a few weeks to make the legs & frames, and by then I could somehow afford 3 sheets of thick aluminum. This was before I knew that aluminum could be a participant in galvanic corrosion.

If I were to do this over again, the whole thing would be made out of aluminum. It would involve no welding. It would just be 3 plates and 12 rods (not tubing—aargh!), all connected with tight slip fits. To save money, the feet could be press fit so you wouldn’t have to turn down the bottom leg so much.

Come to think of it, that sounds like a *really* fun machining project!


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

Welding the last two feet on their legs went way better than the first two. I had taken a break, had some dinner & family time, plus water & a quad espresso. I was very wired on the caffeine.

I have worn 2.5X glasses in tandem with the (2.5X ?) cheater in the hood for all welding today, so I had the best in person view of welding that I have ever had in my whole life. I had 9 tungstens at the ready, & I used 4 of them for the last 2 feet.

These welds aren’t pretty, but they will have far fewer defects than the weld beads posted above. The rollout wheel is definitely one of my top five favorite tools in the shop. If you weld, I strongly recommend a rollout wheel. I welded at between 11:30 and 2:00 for all four feet, so gravity was my friend for shielding gas & dropping keyholes.




Pen:


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## erikmannie (Aug 22, 2022)

I machined the first foot down until I saw the weld seam between the tubing & the bushing. If I machine it down more, I would surely have to weld on it again (to get full pen on the seam). As it is, I could get away with it because (1) it is up against the floor and nobody is going to see it, and (2) the very worst thing that could ever happen is that the bushing would spin loose.

Regarding the OD, even though I faced off .265”, there is still undercut on the bushing. I can either (1) *face* it down more to machine off the undercut or (2) build that back up with weld metal (as you would with undercut). 

I would not choose to put anything other than the minimum chamfer on the foot because, being a foot, it is expected to have the maximum footprint. A chamfer would be a counterproductive Band-Aid.

I included a lot of photos of the remaining penetration at the weld seam.

I’m sure I will end up fixing all of the above issues with weld metal. I have found this type of welding (i.e. buildup and repair) to be good welding practice. 

I need to machine the other three feet before I do any welding so that I can make sure that all of the feet end up being the same height.

I sure wish I would have just gone for a press fit here! Maybe I like spending time in a welding hood.


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

All four ended up about the same, save one weld seam which is very weak & quite exposed.

I can skip building up the bushing (i.e. fixing the undercut) by doing the following:

(1) choose the standard foot height as decided by which one needs the most facing to remove all of it’s undercut,
(2) weld all 4 seams really well since I have full access to the seams,
(3) face all 4 feet to the standard foot height,
(4) minimal chamfer,
(5) check that the seams are all hunky dory after the .090” or so facing ops,
(6) Emery cloth to make them match the tubing.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 23, 2022)

Since it's not structural, you could have run a fusion weld with no filler along the inside edge.  Just heat the interior corner until it melts and fuses, then chase it around the inner circle.  Should take about 5 seconds.  No raised bead, small weld, not much heat input.  In other words, if you're going to grind it off, you don't need a big 1/4" fillet weld there.


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Since it's not structural, you could have run a fusion weld with no filler along the inside edge.  Just heat the interior corner until it melts and fuses, then chase it around the inner circle.  Should take about 5 seconds.  No raised bead, small weld, not much heat input.  In other words, if you're going to grind it off, you don't need a big 1/4" fillet weld there.



Perfect timing for telling me this. I’m just about to head out there and do this now.

I am going to have to switch to gas welding on this project because there is an Argon shortage.


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

Gas welding setup:




Here is the seam to be reinforced with a fusion weld. I will be facing this bushing down about .090”.




I did this, refusing to put any filler material next to me. The tubing is so thin that part of it melted down. Now I’m going to have some 1/16” RG45 (gas welding filler rod) to use, if needed:


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

Here is the second one. I had to use filler rod in one place because the tubing is so thin that sometimes it falls away.




Here are the last two. I switched from a #0 tip to a #1 tip because my #0 tip reached the end of it’s useful life. I liked working with the #1 tip better because I could move faster.


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

Here is how that machined down. This picture is taken after lathe filing:




I will do this machining for all 4 feet, and see which one is the shortest. Then I will make all of them that length.

I won’t do anything with the inside of this tubing because nobody will ever see that. Any material removal would only reduce serve to reduce strength.


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

When I was facing down one foot, the gas welded seam failed due to lack of penetration (I only faced it .075”!). Obviously, I welded it again. This mishap prevented me from making all of the feet the same height; they vary by .100”. Here it is, fixed.




Then I put minimal chamfers on the top & bottom of the feet with a file.

Finally, I used files, 80 grit Emery cloth, blue & finally tan Scotch-Brite to put a shine on everything.

I am very frustrated that I didn’t just do a slip fit on the feet.






This weekend I will do 12 “TIG/stitch/skipping around a lot” socket welds to finish this rack.




The legs are perpendicular to the floor. The camera is putting that angle on there.


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

This is not where I am going to weld bottom shelf. The bottom shelf will be above the ground about 6”.


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## Winegrower (Aug 23, 2022)

For sure it looks good!


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## Boswell (Aug 23, 2022)

At least you will not have to lie awake at night worrying about a stray Tank driving through and damaging your tooling holder


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## Firstram (Aug 23, 2022)

Do your spindle a favor and make room for these!


And one of these


			https://www.amazon.com/Accusize-Tools-Annular-Coolant-MC18-0034/dp/B0758D9BGR


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

I had to buy 3/4”-1-3/4” hose clamps for my fixturing, so I did a test fit with the hose clamps.

When I weld it (this weekend), the rack is upside down & the hose clamps hold up the shelves.






When I weld it, the middle shelf is going to be centered between the top and bottom shelves.

Again, the iPhone is putting weird angles on everything. It is very square in person.


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## Firstram (Aug 23, 2022)

Neither bragging or trying to beat a dead horse, annular cutters are the way to go for drilling larger holes without hammering your spindle. I don't understand your fascination with huge tooling but, there's no reason to beat the **** out of your mill using massive drill bits. 

Buy a cheap coolant thru arbor and pick up cutters as needed!


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

This shelf is very flimsy in that it twists. This is not surprising because there is space in between the tubing and shelves (the gaps for what will be my socket welds).

I wondered if it would stabilize a little more if I loaded it up with a bunch of stuff. It still twists. It definitely needs to be welded to fill those gaps.

I put everything that I had that would fit on to the rack. So much of this stuff is from @mattthemuppet2.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Aug 23, 2022)

as the vicar said to the nun "that's a beautiful rack"


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## erikmannie (Aug 23, 2022)

Firstram said:


> Neither bragging or trying to beat a dead horse, annular cutters are the way to go for drilling larger holes without hammering your spindle. I don't understand your fascination with huge tooling but, there's no reason to beat the **** out of your mill using massive drill bits.
> 
> Buy a cheap coolant thru arbor and pick up cutters as needed!



I like big tools because I am lazy! My favorite thing to do is weld on coupons; my favorites are thick plate and thick pipe. If I am going to take the time to machine a coupon, I want it to be as thick as possible so I can lay numerous passes & not be bothered to switch out the coupon. I am 100% content being in the welding hood & laying beads.

Annular cutters would have been next on the list, but my family just went from three incomes to one income (not a disaster, my wife and son are going back to school), so I will have to use boring heads for large holes. I am the last person that wants to see any of my equipment damaged.


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## erikmannie (Aug 28, 2022)

My welding table has been out in the weather; it was permanently displaced by a knee style milling machine. I cleaned all the rust off the top, thinking I was going to use that. 

I ended up using the fixture stand which makes everything much easier! It did take me a good hour to get it all fixtured it up.


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## erikmannie (Aug 28, 2022)

No way I wanted to try to weld .025” tubing to .250” sheet. No thanks! I will never find out how many holes I would have blown because I am bronze brazing from here on out. The inside of the tubing has rust and oil. 

As you know, with brazing there is almost a 0% chance of melting the parent metal.

I am using these:






I started with 1/16”, & that is fine so far.

LFBFC stands for “low fuming bronze, flux coated”. 

I am using a 00 tip. I always use oxyacetylene.






I really enjoy brazing because of the low stress as a result of not having to worry too much about blowing a hole.


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## erikmannie (Aug 28, 2022)

Everything was going great until I ran out of oxygen. When I brought out the spare tank, I was horrified to learn that it was empty, as well. Of course, I ran out of oxygen while I was tack brazing the last socket joint.

I cleaned off the flux with warm water, a wire brush, I used a small regular screwdriver as a chisel, & finally followed up with a small stainless brush. I will have to get off the rest of the flux with a wire wheel.
















The brazing is easy if you have a clean tip. I had to stop & clean the 00 tip about 40 times for the 11 seams.

The dried flux is definitely a PITA.

I was very happy to see that the stand was not twisted. I have not yet checked how level the shelves are.


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## erikmannie (Sep 4, 2022)

I finally finished. I brazed the last joint, & then I had to *completely* redo one brazed joint where the faced down .120” sheet had failed & pulled up from the sheet that it was (no longer) seam welded to.

For the repair, I used Gasflux products: 

Type “B” paste flux:









						Gasflux Type
					

Gasflux Type "B" Bronze Paste Flux 1lb steel brass bronze brazing




					framebuildersupply.com
				




and 1/16” C-04 which is a glorified low fuming bronze:









						Gasflux C-04 Nickel Bronze Rod - 1/16
					

Gasflux C-04 nickel bronze rod - 1/16" - 1lb fillet braze steel




					framebuildersupply.com
				




This filler rod is friggin’ amazing! The two products above are formulated to work with one another. Everybody should really try these.

About 10 hours of filing & sanding with an orbital sander followed that.

After I took these photos, I coated the whole thing in way oil.


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## erikmannie (Sep 4, 2022)

Here are the bottom sides (steel frame bolted to aluminum plate):


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## erikmannie (Sep 4, 2022)

Here are the brazed joints that turned out okay:


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## mattthemuppet2 (Sep 4, 2022)

wowsers, that's a beautiful piece of work Erik. I'm sure you'll get a glow of satisfaction everytime you pick up or put something back in it!


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## erikmannie (Sep 4, 2022)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> wowsers, that's a beautiful piece of work Erik. I'm sure you'll get a glow of satisfaction everytime you pick up or put something back in it!



I’m going to find this out now because right now I am starting to fill it up with tools, a surprising number of which were purchased from you.

The next thing on my list of things to do is to upload a picture on this forum of that $700 load of cutting tools!


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## mmcmdl (Sep 4, 2022)

Will it float ?  That was a heck of a project .


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## erikmannie (Sep 4, 2022)

After I put on all of the milling machine tooling, I had enough room to fit the lathe tooling, as well. This project is done.


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