# Shop Heat



## ddickey (Oct 14, 2020)

Wondering if there is anyone here with experience using on of these for an infloor heat source. https://www.amazon.com/EcoSmart-ECO-11-Modulating-Technology/dp/B001LZRF9M/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3J9PUKWAXI0BN&dchild=1&keywords=tankless+water+heater+electric&qid=1602668695&refinements=p_89:EcoSmart&rnid=2528832011&sprefix=tankless+,aps,292&sr=8-1It would mean running 250 kcmil (for 200amp) to the shop subpanel. Would initially save ~ $1000 in cost over one of these. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Takagi-T-H...-0-90-UEF-Gas-Tankless-Water-Hea/372562164523
Opinions are appreciated.


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## matthewsx (Oct 14, 2020)

Gas


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## Karl_T (Oct 14, 2020)

With that heavy wiring i bet costs are about the saem. Right now gas is  far cheaper than electric.


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## Martin W (Oct 14, 2020)

I have no experience with tank less water heaters. We have a wood/oil combination boiler.
Will these regulate the water temperature to a low enough temp to walk on. Otherwise a mixing valve will be needed.
It takes a lot of BTU,s to maintain heat in water. The water heat would need to be on consistently. Imagine trying to keep 40 gallons of water, warm on your stove 7 days a week thru the winter. Once its up to temperature it is a lot easier to maintain but not cheap to run.
Not trying to discourage you. Its a great heat and the shop will always be warm. But .......
Cheers
Martin


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## fixit (Oct 14, 2020)

I have seen this done with a conventional water heater. He installed a 40 gallon tank with a circulating pump that was controlled with a thermostat. It worked great in OHIO winters. The floor was always warm. I can't remember if it was gas or electric.


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## MikeInOr (Oct 14, 2020)

Every floor in my house is heated with electric floor heat as a supplement to our heat pump (Natural gas is not available in our neighborhood).  I have used 2 different electric floor heat technologies depending on the type of floor.


*Electric cable heat:*
Over 10 years ago during my kitchen renovation I added this electric cable heat system to my kitchen floor.
1) Snaked the cable over my plywood subfloor and attached it with *cable *staples.
2) Covered the cables with a mortar compatible fiberglass mesh.
3) Thoroughly covered the plywood subfloor, cable and fiberglass mesh with a mortar bonding agent.
4) Poured a modified self leveling compound strengthened with a latex add mix over the plywood, cable and mesh.
5) Installed a tile floor on top of the self leveling base.
This has worked perfectly and has given me NO problems in the past 10 years.  We love the heated tile floor in the middle of the cold winters! Recently I had to remove a single tile for a project and the self leveling compound took an exorbitant amount of work to hammer and chisel through!  I have read that an uncoupling membrane or cement  board is needed to successfully install tile over a plywood subfloor... I disagree.  I have installed this same system in 3 bathrooms and our slate tiled entry way over the years with equally excellent results.

You can buy this same cable already attached to the fiberglass matt from HomeDepot or Lowes for over 5x the price of ordering off of ebay.  (Amazon didn't carry such things when I installed my kitchen tile floor).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-T...621939?hash=item3650c99433:g:GlAAAOSwsJRdJYN6




*Carbon film:*
I have also used this carbon film under engineered wood flooring with excellent results.  This system calls for using crimp clips to make the electrical contact with the copper contact stripes.  Don't do that!  Remove the thin layer of plastic covering the coper contact strip and solder the wire directly to the copper strip.  It is very easy and makes a much thinner connection than the clip plus will be MUCH more secure and much less likely to have issues in the future.  I have this system in 4 bedrooms and our great/living room.  We are VERY pleased with this!  The markup on this carbon film heat mat is even bigger than the cable heat above at the local home centers.  (Yes, I ordered min from China and it is VERY well made!)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carbon-War...654694?hash=item53f7bd28e6:g:P8cAAOSw~y9ZBevu



I know the original question was about hot water radiant floor heat but you might consider using the electric cable heat as an alternative.  I think the install would be much easier, the floor would maintain a more uniform temperature over the entire floor and the heat time would be considerably faster than the hot water systems I have lived with in the past.  All of my research said that the electric cable heat is just as if not more reliable than hot water floor heat.  The identical cable is often used in concrete walkways to eliminate the need for snow removal with an excellent track record of reliability!  I wish I could figure out a way to put this cable heat over the eves under my soon to be installed roof so I don't have to pull snow off the roof to prevent ice dams!

If you do have natural gas available at your house I would choose a hot water floor heating system and a gas water heater over an electric floor heating system!


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## matthewsx (Oct 14, 2020)

Floor heat is nice but having built a shop in Northern Michigan, and having radiant floor heat in part of our home I think I'd skip it for a shop.

The gas tube heaters are super efficient and can be left turned off and unattended without any problem. And, if it breaks its easy to replace.

https://www.menards.com/main/heatin...strt/p-1444441193133-c-6861.htm?tid=-1&ipos=6

I had one in my 2400 sqft shop and it would heat it up from way below freezing to warm enough to take the Carhart off in about half an hour. It's an infrared system so your tools, projects and everything warms up nice.

JMHO,

John
(who BTW doesn't have that shop anymore and is looking forward to never moving snow again)


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## Karl_T (Oct 15, 2020)

MikeInOr said:


> ...
> I wish I could figure out a way to put this cable heat over the eves under my soon to be installed roof so I don't have to pull snow off the roof to prevent ice dams!



They make an electric cable just for this.  It goes under the shingles. SOP up here in MN.  here's one product from a quick google search





						Edge Melt Systems - Ice Dam Prevention Products - Roof De-Icing Systems
					

Prevent ice dams from forming with ice dam prevention products from Edge Melt Systems. Our roof de-icing systems are perfect to protect your home this winter!




					www.edgemeltsystems.com


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## Downunder Bob (Oct 15, 2020)

Here in Downunder electricity is way too expensive for heating. Our whole house including garage, under main roof, is heated with underfloor heating.AKA water in pipes. We have 4 different ways to heat the water.

A 400 Ltr tank is connected via thermal circulation to a wood burning slow combustion heater, with a saddle water tank, this is used throughout winter. It is supplemented with solar hot water panels, we get a lot of cold but sunny days in winter. An instantaneous gas )natural) is also connected for spring and autumn when it's not really cold enough to light up the wood burner, but we just want to keep the concrete slab warm.

The gas system works quite well and will in fact run the system on its own in winter, very handy if we run out of firewood, it is sometimes hard to get.

We also have an electric element in the tank this only runs on an off peak circuit (about half price) so makes it comparable to using gas. It is handy as it runs during the small hours (2300 to 0700) of the morning so it avoids having to get up and stoke up the fire at 0400.

The whole system works very well and I love it that the shop is never really cold, unless I leave the big roller doors open and the wind whistles through.  It also means that I never have condensation on my machines or tools. This system also provides all the house hot water needs.


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## machPete99 (Oct 15, 2020)

If in a basement or connected garage and you have a hydronic (forced hot water) system you could have a zone added for a "Modine" or similar unit heater:









						Unit Heaters
					

Find the perfect unit heater from leading brands including Modine, Reznor, and Qmark to heat garage shops, warehouses, and other large spaces.




					www.supplyhouse.com
				




I have done it for both and it works to take the chill off. You will not however get a warm floor. The space where the heater sits cannot get below freezing; you may need to run it enough to ensure that.


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## 7milesup (Oct 15, 2020)

Ddickey already has the tubes (hydronic) in his floor.

I would suggest the natural gas route for heating the water.  The cost differential in the initial purchase cost (electric vs gas) will most likely be eroded by operating costs.  However, there are advantages to electric, such as efficiency, ease of installation and (lack of) maintenance.  
The natural gas will be, without question, cheaper to run over the long run.  The question is how much cheaper, and that really depends on the heat load of the building (think insulation).   
You could install the electric and see how it goes for a year and if the operating costs are too high then switch over to gas.  Your initial cost of the electric is small and the water heater could be sold if you switch to gas.
The tube radiant heaters are a very nice route if your ceilings are tall enough, but since your tubes are already in, that probably doesn't make sense.  
The "unit" heaters are, in my opinion, horrible.  They are loud, move a lot of air around (thus the percieved comfort level is low) and, well, I just don't like them!
This is all from a guy that has tubes installed in my shop but not hooked up!  I discovered that I have so much wood to burn on my 22 acres that I installed a wood stove.  Seems like I have the small door open in my shop open a lot because it is too hot in there!  Nap time then.


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## ddickey (Oct 15, 2020)

12' ceilings. I have not installed the tubes yet but I plan on it. I really want infloor. Looks like I'll go with gas as I made a little better deal with the excavator. Will order the takagi.
Will need 1" line.
At work so gotta run.
Thanks everyone for their opinions and thoughts. Appreciate it.


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## 7milesup (Oct 15, 2020)

I agree.  Infloor heat is the way to go.


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## Downunder Bob (Oct 17, 2020)

Underfloor heating is the best way to go, especially with high ceilings. As we all know heat rises and if the floor is warm every thing above it will be warm. However you can heat the upper air all you like you will never warm the floor.


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## 7milesup (Oct 17, 2020)

^^^Exactly^^^


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## matthewsx (Oct 17, 2020)

My main concern with in floor heat is what happens if you loose the ability to heat the water during a cold spell. We have a high efficiency boiler in our home and it is great for providing all the hot water we need for both heating (in floor and forced air) and domestic use. In the house we run it year round and if it ever fails we will have an emergency call to Kevin our HVAC guy.

Gas is much better for this use because it keeps coming even if the electricity goes out. I have a generator that will run the electronics on the boiler, circulation pumps and the forced air fan. It would not run an electric water heater. My shop in Michigan is in our attached garage and a small infrared gas heater keeps the garage ~40 deg F in the winter, I turn it up as needed. I previously had a 40 x 60 commercial pole barn with an infrared tube heater (natural gas).

If I was building another shop in that climate (close to but not quite as cold as Minnesota) I would want to be able to shut everything down should I decide to head to Florida or Arizona for a month or two. If I had water in the floor it would need to be drained and winterized before I could leave because not only would I not want the expense of running heat while I wasn't there, I wouldn't want to have the heat malfunction and ruin my hydronic system from freezing.

In my experience having the floor heated is a non-issue, Muck boots keep my feet plenty warm in the northern climate and I normally stand on foam mats when I'm running a machine anyway.

So, if you're installing in-floor heating make sure to ask your contractor about draining and winterizing the system. Also, it might be worthwhile doing a cost comparison between running heat full time vs. just when you need it.

Just my .02 cents.


John


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## 7milesup (Oct 17, 2020)

You should not ever have to drain and winterize the in floor system.  Every system I have had has anti freeze in it.  Not the same stuff as in your car but a product that is made for hydronic heating.  It will keep your floor protected down to a temperature that most likely you will never see.  Remember that the ground temperature at 5 feet down will have an approximately 3 month lag, so in an enclosed building you would have to be gone quite a while for the floor temp to get to +5 to 0F or so.  You do lose a little transfer efficiency by adding anti freeze but it is minimal; somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% loss at a 50% concentration.
Also, the PEX tubing that is used in these systems is VERY robust and resilient.  The chance of it freezing and bursting in the concrete slab is very remote.  The greatest chance of failure in a PEX system is in the connections, which will be none in the concrete slab.  

Anti Freeze in Hydronic systems

Heating boiler anti freeze (This one is geared more towards baseboard type of heat)

Menards Cyro-Tek Hydronic heating anti freeze


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## Boswell (Oct 17, 2020)

Regarding PEX and Freeze bursting.   I run 1" PEX  from two of my above ground water storage tanks. The PEX runs about 50' all above ground. I never drain the lines. In the winter it freezes as you would expect but has never burst. Once the weather warms up, the ice melts and the water starts to flow again. Of course, I have not idea how it would behave if embedded in concrete.  Love PEX.


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## Downunder Bob (Oct 18, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> My main concern with in floor heat is what happens if you loose the ability to heat the water during a cold spell. We have a high efficiency boiler in our home and it is great for providing all the hot water we need for both heating (in floor and forced air) and domestic use. In the house we run it year round and if it ever fails we will have an emergency call to Kevin our HVAC guy.
> 
> Gas is much better for this use because it keeps coming even if the electricity goes out. I have a generator that will run the electronics on the boiler, circulation pumps and the forced air fan. It would not run an electric water heater. My shop in Michigan is in our attached garage and a small infrared gas heater keeps the garage ~40 deg F in the winter, I turn it up as needed. I previously had a 40 x 60 commercial pole barn with an infrared tube heater (natural gas).
> 
> ...


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## matthewsx (Oct 18, 2020)

I love PEX too

Bought my crimpers for doing refurb on the Airstream trailer I had. I put it in my upstairs bathroom and I do believe it will survive sub-zero temps but if I know that's what's coming I will drain it and fill with anti-freeze. Not exactly sure what's in the system in my home, I think it's water and will treat it accordingly.

But, for a shop it seems like an unnecessary risk and expense. I have my own experience with both systems and for me I wouldn't put pipes in a cement slab. Conduit for power? Sure.... Having power, or even air coming up in the middle of the shop is nice. Heating up a large mass of concrete to provide heat for a workshop just seems like overkill. Yes, I did evaluate it for my previous shop and when I ran the numbers it didn't make sense, just like putting in a floor drain. More expense than it was worth for me, maybe not for you that's your call.

When it comes to infrastructure I lean towards simple solutions. My backup generators are simple Tecumseh 10hp units that I'm confident I can get running at the end of the world. If I had ten acres of hardwood I would install a woodstove and let the fuel warm me twice, but if I have access to natural gas that's my choice for reliability and convenience so I stick by my first response to the question in this thread.

If you have the extra money and want nice toasty warm floors in your shop then go for it. I enjoyed being able to fire up my tube heater and get to work comfortably in 30 or 45 minutes, that's what mattered in my commercial shop. The little infra-red unit in my garage also does the trick with very little fuss.

Cheers,

John


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## 7milesup (Oct 18, 2020)

The only risk with PEX in a floor is when it is being installed and if someone would happen to puncture it.  PEX can be froze and thawed with no issues.  The issues would be where the fittings are or the boiler itself, hence the addition of anti freeze to the heat loop.  Both my houses have/had anti freeze solution, yet we never anticipate our house getting below zero.  I believe that the anti freeze may provide some lubricity to the pumps, but I am not 100% sure of that.


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## FOMOGO (Oct 18, 2020)

I have personnel experience with PEX freezing and breaking. When I installed these systems propelyne glycol was always used. Mike


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## Janderso (Oct 18, 2020)

It's interesting to see the opinions around the world relating to energy costs and the preferred heating fuel.
We had radiant heating in the shop when I lived a mile high in Lake Tahoe. Warm feet!!  shop doors would close and in a few minutes it was warm.
The cost to run the gas boiler had the owner turning it down or off on a regular basis.
Our 1,900 sq. foot home in Northern California costs around $450 a month for energy.
We have natural gas for the water heater, HVAC and a gas range.
The swimming pool & spa cost over $100.
We have PG&E,-Pacific Gas and Electric. They start most of the wildfires due to their outdated and poor maintained equipment (according to the press)
I'm told our energy bill would be half what it is in other states.


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## ddickey (Oct 18, 2020)

I have to tee off of this fitting to lay yellow gas line to the shop.


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## ddickey (Oct 18, 2020)

Need to figure out connectors and sizes although I need 1" line.


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## matthewsx (Oct 18, 2020)

This may be one of those jobs you farm out to a licensed plumber. Not because you can't do it but because your insurance company might deny an otherwise unrelated claim if you do gas line work and it's somehow not up to code and/or inspected. Obviously I don't know what your situation is but when I installed automatic standby generators I always used licensed pros. I could have easily done the gas and electrical but didn't want the liability.

John


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## matthewsx (Oct 18, 2020)

But, assuming you are going to DIY and you can shut off the gas to the meter it'll just be black pipe with an adapter to the yellow. Make sure you install a drip leg to catch any smutz that comes through the main line and trench as deep as required. Also do whatever marking and protection over the line as required by code in your area.

John


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## ddickey (Oct 18, 2020)

It'll be run with electrical so no tracer is required. I will need to get another pressure regulator though.


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## Liljoebrshooter (Oct 18, 2020)

I thought you weren't supposed to run copper line with natural gas?  I remember my HVAC guy saying it would corrode eventually.  Just something to check out.

Joe


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## bobdog (Oct 18, 2020)

Reznor overhead gas heater in new shop ....  Last shop had the same one for 22 years no problems !!!


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## 7milesup (Oct 18, 2020)

Liljoebrshooter said:


> I thought you weren't supposed to run copper line with natural gas?  I remember my HVAC guy saying it would corrode eventually.  Just something to check out.
> 
> Joe


That is how they locate gas lines.  A copper wire is buried with the gas line.


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## ddickey (Oct 18, 2020)

All my gas lines in my house are copper. I am not sure if you can bury copper gas line. I'm going with http://homeflex.com/underground/#system


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## 7milesup (Oct 18, 2020)

ddickey said:


> All my gas lines in my house are copper. I am not sure if you can bury copper gas line. I'm going with http://homeflex.com/underground/#system



Looks good!


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## ddickey (Oct 18, 2020)

Oh and I need a pressure regulator also.


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## ddickey (Oct 20, 2020)

Guys I need some help on how to connect to my gas meter. The copper tube is my house service line. I will be using this riser which has a 1" MIP thread. Any ideas on what to use to do this.








						HOME-FLEX 1 in. IPS Poly DR 11 to 1 in. MIP Underground Meter Riser Bent 18-440-010 - The Home Depot
					

The HOME-FLEX underground 1 in. meter riser allows to safely and easily transition from polyethylene pipe to a gas meter. Male iron pipe (MIP) threads on the metal side for direct connection to the meter.



					www.homedepot.com


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## matthewsx (Oct 20, 2020)

#1 - If you're not comfortable with this please get a licensed plumber to do it properly, the consequences of doing it wrong can be very, very bad.

#2 - If you are doing it yourself you'll need a few short pieces of black pipe, the correct fittings, and the proper pipe dope or yellow Teflon tape. All this stuff is available at the local hardware store or wherever you're getting the underground pipe to run to your shop.

Here's a link to a guide from a utility company in New York.



			https://www.oru.com/-/media/files/oru/documents/for-small-medium-businesses/contractor-resources/oruyellowbook.pdf?la=en
		


Do bear in mind that if you're building a new shop and have pulled permits for it your local building department may have something to say about how utilities are run.









						City of Cokato, Minnesota
					






					www.cokato.mn.us
				





Cheers,

John


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## ddickey (Oct 21, 2020)

I was under the impression that you could not use black pipe outdoors. 
Thanks for the link.


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## DiscoDan (Oct 21, 2020)

I live in Maryland and my workshop is in my attached garage. The house was built in the 50 so I have no idea if there's any insulation in the walls. I used one of these little plug-in heaters to keep the garage warmed up. Once everything gets warmed up it stays pretty temperature throughout the winter. I don't know how much it cost to run this thing throughout the winter but it isn't on all the time as far as I know. I'm a plug in one of those kilowatt meter things and see how much energy it uses during the course of the winter and figure out how much it cost


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## Papa Charlie (Oct 21, 2020)

I am not familiar with these new Gas Flex Lines. But if it were me, I would include a shutoff value at the tee that will distribute the gas between the house and the shop. Also be sure to install the pressure regulator at the heater, this will assure the least line pressure loss from the meter to the heater.


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## 7milesup (Oct 21, 2020)

ddickey said:


> I was under the impression that you could not use black pipe outdoors.
> Thanks for the link.



I just went and looked at the gas service for my house.  Copper line up to the regulator but then there is about 1 foot of black pipe before it enters the house.  I do know that the black pipe was added to move the regulator a little farther away from the electrical service, because one of the contractors did not put it in the right spot.  Imagine that, a pro not doing it quite right.


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## ddickey (Oct 21, 2020)

Guys an update. I'm returning all the 1" lines and buying all 1/2" instead. I read this and realized since I have 2psig coming out of the meter I'll Have more than enough flow. 




__





						Residential New Construction 2 PSIG Program | SoCalGas
					

Residential New Construction 2 PSIG Program means lower costs. Learn how utilizing elevated pressure can save you money in new residential building projects.




					www.socalgas.com


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## BGHansen (Oct 21, 2020)

ddickey said:


> Guys an update. I'm returning all the 1" lines and buying all 1/2" instead. I read this and realized since I have 2psig coming out of the meter I'll Have more than enough flow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can Google pipe size considering length of run and heater size. I'm putting in a 125,000 btu heater which was okay with around a 75' run of 1/2" black pipe before having to bump up to 3/4" (my run is only about 12'). I'll do some searching and see if I can find the link again.

Bruce


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## ddickey (Oct 21, 2020)

Size depends on your pressure. At normal 8inwc I would've needed 1" but my service is 2psig. 1/2' will be more than plenty for a 130' run.


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