# RANT: 5C Collets Chuck, D1-4 Cam-Lock



## JimDawson

I need a 5C collet chuck for an upcoming project so of course I went to Ebay to find something cheap.  OK, I know that I’m not going to get Hardinge quality, but I expected that the specifications would be reasonably close to the real world.  It’s my fault I guess, $260 was pretty cheap.  I’m glad that I didn’t spend more thinking that I would get higher quality in Chinese tooling.  It’s pretty much a crapshoot.







The TIR was advertised as 0.0004, I could live with even +/- 0.0004, but 0.004 TIR is a bit too much.

Please understand that the problem here is that the chuck does not match the advertised specification.  If it was not advertised as 0.0004 TIR, I would not be writing this.

Just to be sure, I checked my lathe spindle; the TIR is <0.0001. About 20 years ago, when I first bought the lathe it was 0.0003 TIR, so I re-ground the spindle to get it to zero.


The internal nose taper seems to be concentric with all of the surfaces on the OD.  This means that the mounting surface is not machined concentric with the rest of the chuck.  Rather than putting the chuck on a D1-4 spindle to do the final grinding, they apparently chucked on the OD.  Due to the design of the chuck, there is no way to adjust the concentricity.  I’ll re-grind the taper and get it right.


The other issue is the bevel gears in the chuck.  Everything is so sloppy that the gears jamb when loosening, it seemed to work OK when tightening.  I went in and deburred and cleaned up the internal parts and got it to work pretty well.


The outside finish is good with the exception of the normal lack of deburing.


I am not going to contact the seller (an importer) to complain, I’ll just fix it and go on with life.


The Chinese lack of quality control is amazing.  If we ever get into a war with China I can only hope that their weapons have the same fine quality.


End of rant.


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## Don B

Don't blame you for the rant, it's very frustrating when a tool clearly doesn't fall within the  manufactures claimed tolerances/maximum run out, I purchased what was advertised as a super precision milling vise once, it rocked .025 from corner to corner, when I complained I was told some people are just to fussy an can never be kept happy....? I'm not sure anyone would be happy remachining what was advertised and sold as a "Super Precision Milling Vise":nuts:


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## Ray C

Jim, this is precisely why I want nothing to do with integral-back chucks.  If they're not dead-on, they're dead-off -with virtually no chance of fixing it.  I'm scratching my head about that style...   It's a rotten egg.

All my manual lathe chucks are (and will be for the foreseeable future) two-piece.  That way, I can customize the interface between the spindle and backplate and then, the interface between the backplate and chuck.  And furthermore, I ever get a lathe with a different mount type, my chucks are preserved and all that's needed are backplates and a couple hours of my time.

I tell all my clients to go this way -at the expense of spending 1-3 hours on the phone giving instructions on how to true things up but at least, I don't spend 1-3 hours on the phone getting chewed-out for steering them in the wrong direction.

... Sorry to hear you got a lemon but I'm glad you posted so I can beat my drum about this ridiculous design.


Ray


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## zmotorsports

I agree with Ray, I like having the backing plate separate vs. integral for the ability to address this very issue.

I just picked up a 6" 6-jaw chuck and the guy had both styles, integrated D1-4 or the divorced style. I opted for the separate backing plate/chuck style vs. being completely disappointed down the road when I install it and find out the runout is beyond expectations, which I hope it isn't.

Mike.


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## Ulma Doctor

thanks for the post Jim,
i had contemplating doing the same thing, although i don't have a D1 spindle.
i have a 2 3/8" x 8 tpi spindle and have a similar problem, i would like to use 5C collets for accuracy.

i'm wondering if a MT5 to 5c spindle adapter from grizzly would be a better step in the right direction?


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## dave2176

Ulma Doctor said:


> thanks for the post Jim,
> i had contemplating doing the same thing, although i don't have a D1 spindle.
> i have a 2 3/8" x 8 tpi spindle and have a similar problem, i would like to use 5C collets for accuracy.
> 
> i'm wondering if a MT5 to 5c spindle adapter from grizzly would be a better step in the right direction?




If the MT5 was in an accurate holder like a large spindle it would be accurate.Could you make your own adapter?


Dave


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## JimDawson

dave2176 said:


> If the MT5 was in an accurate holder like a large spindle it would be accurate.Could you make your own adapter?
> 
> 
> Dave



You could make a MT5 to 5C adapter and it should be just fine, I just don't have the time to spend on it.  You would also have to make a draw bar to pull the collet in.  There are a lot of handwheel type 5C collet closers available. That is the way I guess I should have gone, or as Ray C suggested, gotten a plane back chuck and a backplate for it.


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## Ray C

JimDawson said:


> You could make a MT5 to 5C adapter and it should be just fine, I just don't have the time to spend on it.  You would also have to make a draw bar to pull the collet in.  There are a lot of handwheel type 5C collet closers available. That is the way I guess I should have gone, or as Ray C suggested, gotten a plane back chuck and a backplate for it.



If that chuck were mine -and assuming I took pity on it, I'd remove the lugs, get a backplate -and make a decent chuck out of it.

Ray


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## Walsheng

I just bought a G4003G and got the Bison 5-C chuck for it.  The chuck wasn't very cheap, around $560, so I was hoping for the best.  I put it on, put the Interapid thenth indicator on it and the needle didn't move!  I had to do it a couple of times to make sure the indicator was actually touching, not that I ever made that mistake before, and it did not move.  Took it off, put it back on just to make sure and same results.
Not only that but the fit, finish and movement was impressive.
I am thinking of getting a larger 3 jaw chuck for the lathe and I will have to consider a Bison.

John


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## tripletap3

There was a post here last year or so where someone bought on of the inexpensive 5C direct mount chucks from Ebay and they had the same issues and if I recall right it turned out to be a nightmare. After doing some research for myself it seems that there must be a factory making a particular 5C chuck that is real crummy. There are other clones in the $350 range that will get you in the .001 range and of course the $550+ Bison that will do what you expect. This is a classic example of what we see everyday of numerous China factories making the same looking clones with wide degrees of quality.


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## darkzero

I also agree with Ray, I stay away from direct mount chucks. My primary use chuck is a Bison Set-Tru so no worries there & my 3 jaw chuck is plain back with a backplate which I use as a "tap-tru". The only exception is my 4-jaw chuck that is a direct mount but of course it doesn't matter on an independent 4-jaw. I opted for the direct mount on the 4-jaw to reduce overhang & transport weight.

I'm a strong believer when it comes to items that mean the most, such as accuracy in chucks, I don't cheap out on them & buy quality. Generally even the expensive high quality chucks don't guarantee very low runout like on scroll chucks so I can't imagine most direct mount chucks to give lower than .002" TIR unless your lucky. Not sure about the TIR claims are on no adjustable collet chucks as I have never looked but I never trust the TIR claims on a Chinese import chuck. You get what you pay for in this case.

Hopefully you can fix yours as planned & if you do please share.


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## JimDawson

This is the only and last direct mount chuck that I'll ever own.  It's not a big deal to grind the bore, it's just irritating to have to do it.:angry:


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## rc63

Oh my, I ordered that with my new lathe! I reckon I'll find out soon enough. I hope you guys have a fix for it. Then again I could get lucky.











Thanks for the heads up.
Bob


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## JimDawson

rc63 said:


> Oh my, I ordered that with my new lathe! I reckon I'll find out soon enough. I hope you guys have a fix for it. Then again I could get lucky.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up.
> Bob



I would not worry too much about what you ordered.  This rant is only about one particular brand of chuck, and is not meant to indite all of the collet chucks of the general style.  There are some very good ones out there, I just went really cheap and I knew better.


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## rc63

Point taken Jim. Although I never thought about checking TRO in the first place. Now I know. Working with cnc machines, Things like that never dawn
us button pushers. Last time I turned cranks was over 20 yrs ago. Then I was put on cnc's. Been that way ever since. Always wanted to do manual ever since as well. At 50 i finally have the chance to build my own home shop and continue where I left off those 20 yrs ago.









Bob


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## Hawkeye

This is a timely discussion for me. I'm working up to making a 5C chuck for my Storebro lathe. Your comments will help me in the design process.


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## samthedog

I have Pratt Burned D1-3 direct mount 3 jaw and also a direct mount 4 jaw and both have virtually no run out (measuring from the bore). These were  their top-o-the-line chucks in the day rated for 3000 rpm - quite impressive since they are from the 60's. I think if you spend the money then you get the quality. This is the biggest reason I don't go Chinese on anything that can't easily be fixed or trued up. 

Paul.


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## mcostello

ULMA DOCTOR, I have a South Bend with the same thread and bought one of the mentioned collet closers. It would not repeat and I made the backing plate and it was machined in place. I bored out the spindle nose and it did make it better but not perfect. THEN I found out the inside was full of small chips and never was cleaned out after machining leading the plate that the collet screws into to be crooked. Accuracy is about .001-.0015 about 1" out. Not stellar but works.


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## Ray C

BTW:  When you're checking the RO on a 5C-type chuck, reading off the body or nose is not a useful measurement.  Reading off the inner taper and concentricity thereof is what's important for it to run true.  Same goes for Jacobs type chucks.  -Don't even waste your time reading off the body...  For those, mount a known shaft and read 1" from the nose.

Once a 5C chuck has been centered on it's backplate so that readings from the inner tapered cone are true, then you can check with straight shafts.  If you have a known shaft placed in a 5C chuck and if the readings off the shaft get out of whack as you read further down the shaft then, you need to make corrections somewhere in the backplate interface.  A skim pass on the backplate or the back of the chuck itself will usually clear that up.  Sometimes, surface grinding the back of the chuck is effective.  Each time the backplate is adjusted, the chuck must be recentered on the backplate before you check shaft linearity again.

FWIW, I don't have high-dollar chucks -and all my chucks are reliable and very well behaved.   A friend brought me 3 chucks that he was convinced were junk.  The weren't worn-out at all.  I re-fitted all of them (and balanced them too) and he was blown away they could be "salvaged".  -No salvaging was necessary; only proper fitting and adjustment.


Ray


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## Senna

Excellent thread top to bottom!

What are your thoughts on used equipment of this type?

Certainly harder to find but perhaps the chances of getting a really good unit used is as good as the chances you take buying brand new.

Industry generally seems to buy high quality stuff because they can't afford to go cheap. A lot of this stuff hits the open market eventually. Some of it may be utterly worn out but plenty still have a lifetime of hobbyist use in them.


To me it would seem that buying a half used up Hardinge chuck would be a better route than playing Chinese roulette. Even for more money.


Maybe not, but that's my thinking anyway.


Jim, I too hope Chinese QA permeates their military industrial complex and I chuckled when I read what you wrote.


Why do you make so much sense all the time Ray??? Great stuff!


Great thread everyone.


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## Ray C

Senna said:


> Excellent thread top to bottom!
> 
> What are your thoughts on used equipment of this type?
> 
> Certainly harder to find but perhaps the chances of getting a really good unit used is as good as the chances you take buying brand new.
> 
> Industry generally seems to buy high quality stuff because they can't afford to go cheap. A lot of this stuff hits the open market eventually. Some of it may be utterly worn out but plenty still have a lifetime of hobbyist use in them.
> 
> 
> To me it would seem that buying a half used up Hardinge chuck would be a better route than playing Chinese roulette. Even for more money.
> 
> 
> Maybe not, but that's my thinking anyway.
> 
> 
> Jim, I too hope Chinese QA permeates their military industrial complex and I chuckled when I read what you wrote.
> 
> 
> Why do you make so much sense all the time Ray??? Great stuff!
> 
> 
> Great thread everyone.



New vs used chucks... It's just like anything else.  If you know what to look for and if you know how to check it -and if it's at the right price -and if you are in the right place at the right time etc... -Whip out the wallet!  

My 5C collet chuck was purchased on eBay for something like 75 bucks including shipping.  It's a shars brand.  The seller said it wouldn't run true.  I contacted him about it and even gave him the procedure to set it up.  -Nope... He was convinced it was no good and wanted no part of any discussion on how to check for sure.  I bought it, set it up -and it runs dead on!

I also bought an old Union 6", 4J on eBay.  The jaws were wiggling around like loose teeth in a 8 year old's mouth.  I did a weld build-up on the jaw slots, re-cut new slots...  -Made it a little better -but I eventually gave it away to a guy who did hobby projects with the boy scouts.  -Good enough for him, not for me.

Win some, lose some...

On the flip side, most all new chucks need some dressing and fitting and every backplate I've ever had needed trimming and fine-tuning to the spindle cone.

I hate selling chucks!  Some folks buy them and curse me out like crazy when they read 2 thou out.  ---Did you fit the backplate and chuck?  No!  Well, have you got some time to hear a bedtime story about chucks?


Ray


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## JimDawson

It was requested that I post some pictures of the grinding process.  If you haven't been following this thread, scroll to the top to see the original problem.

First I had to make a fixture to hold my HF die grinder.










Then indicate the on the tapered bore to set the compound angle to 10*  A bit of a leap of faith here, I hope the Chinese at least got the angle correct.  I probably should have used the one Hardinge collet I have to check the angle.  I may do that tomorrow, because I may wind up doing this over anyway.




Getting set up.  The grinder spindle centerline is on the lathe centerline, in this case by my calibrated eyeball, which usually serves me pretty well.





Dressing the grinding stone with a diamond. I built a holder for the diamond so I could support it in the chuck.    (The ways were well covered while I was actually dressing the stone, and during grinding)





I didn't get any pictures of the actual grinding process, I was a bit busy.  Get everything in position, turn on the grinder.  Lock the carriage.  Turn the work in the opposite direction as the grinder wheel rotation.  Ease into the work with the cross slide, and just touch the work.  Take a cut, feed slowly and at a constant rate with the compound, rinse, repeat until you are at the target depth.  In this case the target is a full circle cut, about 0.002 inch.  You can hear when it's cutting the full circle.

I indicated the bore after grinding, and have less than 0.0002 TIR, I can live with that.  It started at 0.004




Now the problem, in the picture above the the TRO is about 0.0006 at the collet, and I checked this with 3 different collets.  At about 1 1/4 inch out the TRO is about 0.0025, and I get the same reading with different collets and test bars.  This means that I'm not done yet.  There are a few possible causes.





First I am going to open up the chuck and make sure that there are no burrs or chips inside.  I was into it once, but did not do a complete teardown and inspection.  It could be that the thread plate is sitting cockeyed, or something is not machined correctly.  I'll figure it out when I get in there.  It needs a complete cleaning anyway after grinding.  If everything inside looks good, I'll square up the back next.  I'll post that process if I have to do it.


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## george wilson

I would not advise just grinding the taper part of the hole in the chuck. The rest of the hole,that holds the straight shank of the collet is still who knows how far out.

Taking the chuck apart and cleaning it is a good idea. While apart,indicate the face of the back half of the collet holder while it is mounted on the spindle. It may not be true.

If all else checks out,I agree that the best thing to do is remove the studs and mount the chuck on a new back plate,and get the chuck centered up on it.

Really,there are so many surfaces that can be a little off of true,you need to methodically check each one out,starting from the bottom end of the chuck,and working your way out. If the hole that holds the collet has an axial wobble to it,you will be in trouble as it is not good practice to try enlarging the straight part of the hole when grinding it true. O.K. to grind the tapered part a few thou.

I have an HLVH that runs dead true,but for fun,I bought one of those 5C collet chuck KITS that Metal Lathe Accessories sells .MLA is the name. Are they still in business?). They also make a neat little die filer casting kit,and a cross slide casting for 9" South Bend lathes,resembling a Myford one,with T slots across the back side. I bought it to fit another lathe with. Not as handy as the Bison type. You have to use a tommy bar to close it,not continuous cranking motion. But,aesthetically very cool. Called the LOOP chuck,I think. At least,if you are careful,you will have a very accurate chuck when you're done. I think the kit costs about as much as a Chinese 5C chuck like we're discussing here.


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## JimDawson

george wilson said:


> I would not advise just grinding the taper part of the hole in the chuck. The rest of the hole,that holds the straight shank of the collet is still who knows how far out.



George, You are absolutely correct, I am going to look at that next.  If I need to, I'll re-bore and sleeve the the bore.  I am not going let this POS chuck get the best of me.  I can work pretty cheap when I'm working for myself.


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## george wilson

Re boring and sleeving the bore may be in order,as well as grinding the taper a little. That way,if you make the bore true and a close fit to the diameter of the 5C,even if the threaded ring that screws onto the rear of the collet is a little off,the collet will still be on center.


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## JimDawson

Success!!!!!!  :happyhappy:.

After grinding the taper yesterday and a complete disassembley, deburing, cleaning, and lubrication the chuck is OK, not perfect, but I can work with it.

When I got the chuck, the nose taper TRO was 0.004, rather than the advertised 0.0004.




The specs now are:

TRO Nose taper <0.0002

TRO at the edge of the collet <0.0002, measured on a ground 5/8 shaft

TRO at about 2 inches out <0.0006

These measurements seem to be repeatable, even after removing and re-mounting the chuck.

The bevel gear had damaged teeth, it looked like a tool bit had been raked across the gear during manufacturing, this had to happen prior to heat treating.  That gear is almost file hard.  I got that cleaned up with a carbide burr in my Dremel.  There were chips and crud left in the cavities inside the housing.  There were burred edges on some of the mating surfaces, and some surface rust in some places.

I guess I lucked out in that I didn't have to do anything to the mounting surface.

I guess moral of this story is:  If you buy cheap junk tools, be prepared to put in a little work to get it right.


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## george wilson

I am very glad that you got it working. But,to tell the truth,I am also surprised that just cleaning and deburring did it. Was there some grit between mating surfaces of the chuck,like between the built in back plate and the front half of the chuck?


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## JimDawson

I suspect that there may been a burr causing the gear/nut to sit a bit cockeyed on the thrust bearing.  The rear of the bore is actually a pressed in hardened ring, so had that been a problem it would have been pretty easy to fix, it could be a tad loose.  That combined with a cockeyed gear could have been the problem.  I lapped the gear to get rid of the rusty spots before I reinstalled it, but it didn't seem to have any high spots.

I never did find anything really definitive. I also took a bit off the the key, I think it was way too tight and could have been part of the problem.  The two haves seem to fit together with no gap so I can't say there was a problem in that area.  The mounting surface seems to fit very well, with good contact on all of the mating surfaces.

The good news is that it seems to be OK now.


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## Bob Korves

Ulma Doctor said:


> (snip)
> 
> i'm wondering if a MT5 to 5c spindle adapter from grizzly would be a better step in the right direction?



--------------------------------------

I just bought a 5MT to 5C collet adapter from Grizzly, p/n P4026001, $98.00 plus $13.95 shipping.  My spindle has .0002" runout and the Grizzly adapter has .0008" run out on the taper, checked multiple times, clocked to different positions, checked for clean surfaces and burs, etc.  If I clock the worst adapter run out opposite the worst spindle run out it still leaves .0006" TIR for the combination.  Interestingly, the O.D. of the adapter does not have any measurable run out.  I plan to build a handwheel collet closer for it so I don't have a way of checking run out of a shaft in the adapter plus collet yet.

I am not real happy with that result but have not decided whether to live with it and maybe fix it someday or go through the trouble of returning or exchanging it.

Another guy, Ray Caniglia, has gone through the same thing, received one with .0010" run out, sent it back and received a better one the second time around, and finally ground the taper himself to be truly happy with it.  There are videos on his YouTube site about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ub2N7_lbNY&list=UU-CybQDYy-IDuNwlx47Ha2Q 
There are four videos total on his site about dealing with the problems.
-Bob


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## Falcon67

Timely article - thanks for the details.  I was thinking about getting a 5C chuck for the 12x36 and thought that buying a back plate plus chuck would be a better bet on getting more accuracy, vs buying the all in one.


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## badiozam

Hi guys, just wanted to throw in my thanks and experience here for future ref. I was in the same boat with this cheap chuck. TIR was about 0.007" if I mounted it a couple of different ways but I was able to achieve a 0.0045" if mounted in one particular cam lock configuration (which I promptly marked with a center punch on the outside).

I took apart the chuck which in and of itself was a b and a half as the two halves were on insanely tight. I found tons of crud and enough burrs to make Hamilton turn over in his grave. It appears they first put the two halves together and machine them together while mated, then they drill the side scroll holes and leave it as is. Meaning any burrs and chips from the drilling are left inside for us to enjoy. Anyway, I figured that after cleaning it out and putting it back together I'd come close to what the advertised tolerance is. But no such luck.

The good news is that the chuck consistently gave me the same 0.0045" TIR on the inside of the spindle nose (and less than 0.0005" when measured on the first half). So I took the leap and ground it with my dremel attachment and voila. <0.0005" TIR at the edge of the collet  and about 0.001" about 0.25" away. I only took 0.002" off which is probably why the 0.0005" TIR remains but it's good enough for me. If I ever need more accurate I figure I'll just get on the 4-jaw. Including some pictures for posterity.

If I would've know what I'd gotten myself into before I purchased it is have gone with a plane back and made my own D1-4 to mate it onto and saved myself the stress.


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## Buffalo21

I bought a 5C collet chuck, with a D1-4 mount a while back, mine was very good right out of the box, mounted right up, RO was very close to the stated specs and has work perfectly since I go it.


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