# Help identifying Atlas lathe



## oakhound (Mar 18, 2019)

Hi folks. I'm not a machinist - more like a fan of old machines. I bought an Atlas lathe this weekend at an estate sale in Berkeley, CA, and I'm looking for information about it. It was in the back yard shop of a man with who clearly knew what he was doing; it was full of machines. In reading this forum and others I've learned a lot about Atlas lathes, but I'm not certain exactly which model this is since it has no metal tag. It looks like a 6 inch sway, but I'm not certain how to read the distance between centers; it looks like maybe 13 inches. The number stamped on the bed near the tail end is "M 516".

It also came with extra gears, cutting tools, chucks, etc., and a 1/4 hp Robbins and Myers motor. There was also a folder of literature included but it turns out none of it was for Atlas. It's all for Shopsmith, mostly from the 1950s.

I've attached images, but they're probably compressed. You can find higher res versions here (a Google photos album): https://photos.app.goo.gl/8mPcPnNT8snVU8xG7 . (I hope it's allowed to post link; if not, I can remove the link).

Any help you can provide on the model # and rough year of production of the lathe would be great to know. My grandfather was a machinist in Buffalo, NY during World War 2. It would be fun if this was a model he might have been familiar with. Thanks for any help you can provide.


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## TonimusMaximus (Mar 18, 2019)

That's an Atlas 618. I'm currently restoring the Craftsman badged version.
I'd link to info, but I think I'm too new and the forum considers all my links as spam. Google "atlas craftsman 618 info" and the first link has a bunch of good info.


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## oakhound (Mar 18, 2019)

Thanks, Tonimus. Is the 18" measured from the head end chuck to the end of the rails? That's about 18". The total length of the rails is 24". Do you know what the "M 516" stamped on the rail indicates?


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## chippermat (Mar 18, 2019)

A 612 maybe? 12 inches between centers? 

Would you post the casting numbers from the two countershaft brackets please?


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## oakhound (Mar 18, 2019)

I'm not certain what a countershaft bracket is (!), but here are all of the numbers cast onto it that I could find:


"M6-20" cast into the underside of what's probably the countershaft bracket.
"M 6-1" cast on the inside bottom of one of the rails.
"M 6-28" cast onto the inside of the door on the left of the lathe.
"M 6-58" cast onto the gear shifter handle.
"M 6-150" cast onto the underside of one of the legs.
"M 6-95" cast into the piece that the left door connects to.
EDIT: "M 6-22" is cast on the inside of the top cover, and there's a "3" below that.
Edit: also, the total length is 29", including the door casing on the left and the handwheel on the right (not counting the _missing_ lever handle that attached to the handwheel).

Thanks.


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## chippermat (Mar 18, 2019)

These here. Thanks much.


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## oakhound (Mar 18, 2019)

chippermat said:


> These here. Thanks much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the helpful illustration. The larger piece (where your left line connects) is marked "M 620" and the smaller piece is "M 621".


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## WCraig (Mar 18, 2019)

That is an Atlas 612.  It can turn a maximum 6" diameter workpiece.  There is 12 inches of space between the headstock spindle (chuck removed) and the tailstock ram (again, chuck removed).   I've got the 618 model which is largely the same except for another 6 inches of bed length.  Another difference is the countershaft which is the assembly hanging out the back between the motor and the headstock.  I believe yours is the variant where the countershaft bracket bolts onto the bed.  On mine, the countershaft is bolted to the table independently of the bed.  

Looks like you got a good supply of change gears and some tooling.  Can you tell if the lathe has a lot of wear?  For example does the carriage move with the same amount of force from one end to the other or is it looser near the headstock?  Same with the cross slide.  Looser in the middle and tighter near each end?  Some wear is normal and inevitable.  The more wear, however, the less precision.

Welcome to the club!

Craig


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## chippermat (Mar 18, 2019)

Great, thanks. That's an interesting countershaft setup, I hope the experts will explain its origin.

Yes, very nice find I think. Could probably find a bed for an 18" lathe and swap it out.


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## oakhound (Mar 18, 2019)

WCraig said:


> That is an Atlas 612.  It can turn a maximum 6" diameter workpiece.  There is 12 inches of space between the headstock spindle (chuck removed) and the tailstock ram (again, chuck removed).   I've got the 618 model which is largely the same except for another 6 inches of bed length.  Another difference is the countershaft which is the assembly hanging out the back between the motor and the headstock.  I believe yours is the variant where the countershaft bracket bolts onto the bed.  On mine, the countershaft is bolted to the table independently of the bed.
> 
> Looks like you got a good supply of change gears and some tooling.  Can you tell if the lathe has a lot of wear?  For example does the carriage move with the same amount of force from one end to the other or is it looser near the headstock?  Same with the cross slide.  Looser in the middle and tighter near each end?  Some wear is normal and inevitable.  The more wear, however, the less precision.
> 
> ...



Thanks! That's great information. The carriage moves smoothly and uniformly across its range. I also turned the other other wheels and the top and bottom wheels are smooth across the range; the middle one, with the oil reservoir beneath it, is stiff across its range.

Do you know what the "M 516" indicates? I've read that these are serial numbers, but I'm not sure what that means. Was each unit numbered, serially, or was this this some type of model #? Thanks again.

Edit: I'm also curious if anyone knows who the market was at the time for these smaller lathes. Who was buying these?


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## chippermat (Mar 18, 2019)

oakhound said:


> Thanks! That's great information. The carriage moves smoothly and uniformly across its range. I also turned the other other wheels and the top and bottom wheels are smooth across the range; the middle one, with the oil reservoir beneath it, is stiff across its range.
> 
> Do you know what the "M 516" indicates? I've read that these are serial numbers, but I'm not sure what that means. Was each unit numbered, serially, or was this this some type of model #? Thanks again.


That's where the serial # is on mine.


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## oakhound (Mar 18, 2019)

chippermat said:


> Yes, very nice find I think. Could probably find a bed for an 18" lathe and swap it out.



Thanks. I think there was also an unsold 1950s Shopsmith Mark V, but I didn't know what I was looking at. It wasn't until I got home and saw the sales literature that I knew what it was!


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## WCraig (Mar 19, 2019)

oakhound said:


> Thanks! That's great information. The carriage moves smoothly and uniformly across its range. I also turned the other other wheels and the top and bottom wheels are smooth across the range; the middle one, with the oil reservoir beneath it, is stiff across its range.
> 
> Do you know what the "M 516" indicates? I've read that these are serial numbers, but I'm not sure what that means. Was each unit numbered, serially, or was this this some type of model #? Thanks again.
> 
> Edit: I'm also curious if anyone knows who the market was at the time for these smaller lathes. Who was buying these?


That's great that you've good consistent movement across the full extents.  You may still need some maintenance parts--the half-nuts, M6-12A, the cross-slide nut, M6-19A, and compound nut, M6-306, are all made of softer material so that they wear out faster and preserve the mating screws for longer.  BTW, note that part numbers that end with a letter (eg M6-12A), mean the part was redesigned during the production life of the machine.  You could still have the older INCOMPATIBLE version.  If you need to replace, do some research first...unlike me!

Sorry, but I don't know about the "M 516" mark.  The serial number plate is normally on the tailstock end of the bed.  Here is mine:




Unfortunately, the serial number doesn't tell us the date of manufacture.  It is guesstimated that mine was made in the mid-to-late 1940s.

One of our members is a real Atlas historian and has examples of the marketing literature back in the day.  These lathes were aimed at hobbiest users and small commercial operations.  Mine came with a specialized tailstock that had soft jaws for holding the armature of an electric motor.  There would have been another supplied gizmo to help recondition the armature.  Presumably this would have been used in a local electric motor shop.  Given the size of the lathe, it would have been limited to fairly small motors.  Nowadays, it is not economical to do involved work like that on a small motor.  Just buy a replacement.  I think, however, it was said that Atlas sold about 90,000 6-inch lathes from the late 1930's to the early 1970's!  I'm probably mis-remembering something, though.

I'm having a lot of fun with mine.  I have no significant metalworking experience so I've been learning a tonne from these forums and from Youtube.  (My wife may have muttered "obsessed" but I'm sure she wasn't talking about me!)  My lathe needed significant repairs and restoration before I could use it.  I completely disassembled it, cleaned, repainted and reassembled with replacement parts where necessary.  Now, with sharp HSS tooling, it works quite acceptably.  I recently discovered the joy of 'free machining steel'!  As long as I'm patient, the machine is capable of quite a lot.  OTOH, it is not going to turn replacement drive shafts for a D-12 Cat!  I'm OK with that.  

Craig


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## jwmay (Mar 19, 2019)

I don’t think they made very many of that machine. Pretty neat find!


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## markba633csi (Mar 19, 2019)

Good purchase, I see a lathe dog as part of the package 
Mark


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## wa5cab (Mar 19, 2019)

Judging from the catalogs and the very few that have turned up, not many 612's were made and they were only made from 1937 until 1942.

Originally, the nameplates on all Atlas lathes were on the rear of the bed and only had the model number stamped on them.  The serial number was stamped into the top of the right end of the front way, as yours is.  The nameplate was moved to the right end of the bed in early 1941, and the serial number was stamped on the nameplate.  We don't yet know whether or not the serial number was at first also stamped on the bed but my guess would be no.

All of the early lathes or at least most of them had a one or two letter prefix also stamped on the way.  And sometimes a suffix letter.  The prefix corresponds to the model number or Series.  And does not correlate in any way with the bed length.  The letter "M" was the prefix for all Atlas 6".  This practice seems to have stopped when the nameplate was moved.  In any case, the "M" means that it was an Atlas 6" and not a Craftsman.  And the 516 is the serial number.


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## markba633csi (Mar 19, 2019)

I think that countershaft arrangement is kinda rare- I believe it was discontinued for the later models?  The later beds wouldn't have the mounting holes for it, at least I haven't seen one like that
Mark


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## Aaron_W (Mar 19, 2019)

That is neat, I didn't know there were any vintage lathes smaller than the 618 other than some really small watchmakers lathes.


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## oakhound (Mar 19, 2019)

wa5cab said:


> All of the early lathes or at least most of them had a one or two letter prefix also stamped on the way. And sometimes a suffix letter. The prefix corresponds to the model number or Series. And does not correlate in any way with the bed length. The letter "M" was the prefix for all Atlas 6". This practice seems to have stopped when the nameplate was moved. In any case, the "M" means that it was an Atlas 6" and not a Craftsman. And the 516 is the serial number.



Thanks, everyone for all of the great information! 

Craig, I appreciate knowing the parts that probably need maintenance right away - "the half-nuts, M6-12A, the cross-slide nut, M6-19A, and compound nut, M6-306". I understand now that this was an early model so I'm hoping pieces from the later model 618s will work.

Mark, Yes the "lathe dog" was the best part of the deal! Ha!

Wa5cab, thanks for the great historical info on the model numbers and years. Would that place this particular lathe 1937 or '38? Also, I read somewhere (maybe on this forum) that both the 12" and 18" inch versions (between centers) of the 6" models shared the same series numbers - that this one would have been 516th off the line of Atlas 6" lathes. Do you know if that's true?


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## wa5cab (Mar 20, 2019)

I don't have any official documents saying so but I have concluded with the 10" and 12" that each size (swing) shared the same serial number pool regardless of bed length.  This makes sense for a number of reasons, not the least of which would be the significantly increased difficulty of keeping up with the various pools were it not so.

The other thing that does support it with written documentation is MMB5 on the Atlas mill.  There were chronologically four models, base, A, B, and C.  And as a corollary to the different length beds, there were the M1, which had manual lead screw cross feed, the MF which had power cross feed (but like the 10F, you could also run it manually, and the MH, which had lever operated cross feed and table lift.  In the parts manual, it give the transition serial numbers between the base, A, B and C models.  Notes at the tops of each page in the manual give the transition serial numbers for each model letter.

Plus in all of the years that I have been accumulating serial numbers for the lathes, I have never seen the same serial number used twice on the same   swing lathe (6", 9", 10" or 12").  But there are two cases where different swing or size lathes have the same serial number.

And yes, I would assume that your lathe was the 516th Atlas 6" off the line.  Based on the highest reported serial number, we have tentatively concluded that about 28000 612's and 618's were made.  Or an average of 800 per year.  We have no idea what actual [production was in any given year and don't know whether initial sales were very good or started off slow.  But it is probably safe to conclude that #416 was made late in 1937 or very early in 1938.

Also, the first catalog in which the 6" appeared was probably issued in mid-1937.  It shows a countershaft assembly that hung off the rear of the bed. But I would have guessed from that one photo that the countershaft hanger assembly wasn't as far away from the bed as your's is.  But I could be wrong.


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## WCraig (Mar 20, 2019)

oakhound said:


> Craig, I appreciate knowing the parts that probably need maintenance right away - "the half-nuts, M6-12A, the cross-slide nut, M6-19A, and compound nut, M6-306". I understand now that this was an early model so I'm hoping pieces from the later model 618s will work.


Since your machine is over 80 years old (!!), it is quite possible that some of the parts have been replaced previously.  Maybe multiple times.  If so, you may well have the 'modern' versions of the corresponding parts.  For example, for the new model M6-12A half-nuts, you need the M6-13A guide (which is what I didn't have).  The half-nuts were increased in size from 1/2" wide to 3/4" and the appropriate change was made to the M6-13A guide bracket.  

Craig


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## oakhound (Mar 21, 2019)

wa5cab said:


> I don't have any official documents saying so but I have concluded with the 10" and 12" that each size (swing) shared the same serial number pool regardless of bed length.  This makes sense for a number of reasons, not the least of which would be the significantly increased difficulty of keeping up with the various pools were it not so.
> 
> The other thing that does support it with written documentation is MMB5 on the Atlas mill.  There were chronologically four models, base, A, B, and C.  And as a corollary to the different length beds, there were the M1, which had manual lead screw cross feed, the MF which had power cross feed (but like the 10F, you could also run it manually, and the MH, which had lever operated cross feed and table lift.  In the parts manual, it give the transition serial numbers between the base, A, B and C models.  Notes at the tops of each page in the manual give the transition serial numbers for each model letter.
> 
> ...



Wow! Thanks for the incredible detail; I really appreciate the encyclopedic knowledge dump. I've seen you mention a database of models,  serial numbers and other information. Can you point me to that? Thanks again.


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## oakhound (Mar 21, 2019)

WCraig said:


> Since your machine is over 80 years old (!!), it is quite possible that some of the parts have been replaced previously.



Good point. It was clearly being used as recently as 20 years ago, so there's a chance it's had some 'updates'.  Thanks for all your help and detailed responses!


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## wa5cab (Mar 21, 2019)

oakhound said:


> Wow! Thanks for the incredible detail; I really appreciate the encyclopedic knowledge dump. I've seen you mention a database of models,  serial numbers and other information. Can you point me to that? Thanks again.


The database file and the index file are in Downloads in the             Atlas/Craftsman/Dunlap/AA Database        folder.  The database is a ,DBF.  The index is a .MDX.  If you do not have any version of dBase (very few do), you can read the .DBF file with Microsoft Exel or Access.  I don't think that either one will use the .MDX file.  Before you go looking for it, read the blurb on using Downloads that is in the Sticky area near top of screen.  I update the files sporadically as info on new machines turns up.


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