# New Student of the trade: First measuring devices



## OrangeJasper (Oct 17, 2014)

I am a new machinist student her in Memphis , completed all y safety and now learning on machines.

I am ready to purchase my first Mocreter and Caliper.
I am learning on ToolingU.com (school requires a one year subscription) 
Where do I start?
which brand? 
Definitley want to start with a dial caliper and manual read micrometer.
my budget : about 600$ 
i would like to get asuch as I can for the money.
ie. Micrometer/Caliper, debuting tools, my own dial indicator , and anything else you pros suggest.
thanks! 
Josh B.


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## nobog (Oct 17, 2014)

Welcome to the forum!

It might be helpful to read: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/22521-Metrology-101

$600 is a very good start. There are tons of places on the web for measuring tools, find one you trust and go from there.  I would not spend your budget all at once, save some $ for those special tools/gauges (some will say _gage_) you will find that you need at a later date.

Any specific questions feel free to ask,

JK


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## chuckorlando (Oct 17, 2014)

If you will do used you can get some very very good deals on starrett and mitt or B&S mics. I use cheap harbor freight digi calipers. Calipers ar for roughing so long as it holds you to a few thou your good.

What I used in school personally.....  1in travel starrett drop indicator, 5 tenth starrett test indicator, angle blocks, 0-1, 1-2, 2-3 starrett mics, starrett inside mics, inside snap gage, starrett height gage, cheap angle finder, cheap mag base, edge finder set, mill file with handle, cheap gage block set, thread wires/thread mic....

Maybe more I'll think on it


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## Bill Gruby (Oct 17, 2014)

For Calipers for a beginner I would recommend a set with a dial. 

 As for Mics, Mitotoyo is as good as they get these days. A set from 1 to 4 inch will get you started.

 The rest will come with experience.

 "Billy G"


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## chuckorlando (Oct 17, 2014)

I understand that and have a set my self. I was taught to use calipers, all calipers for roughing. Never use them if you need precision. So thats what I do. I'm not saying thats right or wrong but it's what I do. 

Our instructor specifically told us to not buy any thing but cheap digi calipers. Do not show up with analog calipers. Because we only use calipers for roughing. I keep a spare battery so it's not a problem and they repeat very well and last a long time on a battery. He also told us not to use digi mics for all the reasons you mentioned. 

So I use cheap digi calipers to get close ad good mics to know where from there. Theres no reason to rely on calipers to be accurate if your mic'ing it. At least not more then a couple thou any ways.

I aint saying dont use your calipers just not what I do if it needs to be more then a couple thousandth on.


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## David Kirtley (Oct 17, 2014)

Quality precision measurement instruments are expensive. Most people have a working set that they have built up over years. If you went out and bought them all at once, you could easily blow through 10X your budget without breaking a sweat. 

My personal choice was to start with a set cheap set. The cheap ones are "fairly good."  You can pick up a set of 1"-3" micrometers, 12" digital calipers, and an indicator for under $100 at HF or the like. Not perfect but they will work to pretty good tolerances. Good enough while you are learning.

Then pick up the quality measurement instruments to replace them one at a time when the price is right and you are not under pressure. You can get really nice stuff second hand much cheaper.


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## darkzero (Oct 18, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> Our instructor specifically told us to not buy any thing but cheap digi calipers. Do not show up with analog calipers.



That's interesting & amusing. I took the conventional machining course with my lil brother at the local community since I was his ride anyway, glad I did & decided to finish the entire course without him. Our instructor (now retired) specifically did not want us to use digital anything, dial or vernier only. We were not required to buy our own tools, they were loaned to us, the tool room guy supported the use of non-digital for learning. The loaner dial calipers they had were such pieces of craps that it really challenged you to get a decent reading. This taught you how to get a feel for the different ones & how much pressure was too much. I'm thankful for that.

And digital micrometers, forget it. You had to use vernier mics to learn & get familiarized with reading vernier scales. We did have a nice digi Mitu height guage & Starrett digi calipers but new students were not allowed to use it. Only the tool room guy was allowed to use the digitals. Funny how people teach in different ways but not surprising.

Well guess what I mostly use at home, digital calipers & micrometers! All Mitu though. I use them cause they save me time. But I do have a 0-6" vernier mic set now which I use occasionally & for anything bigger than 2". My height guage & 12" calipers (also Mitu) are verniers & is what I wanted them to be. If you can't tell, I prefer Mitu.


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## OrangeJasper (Oct 18, 2014)

Yeah thanks guys , I should really proof eras for now on ! 
My instructor said get what you want but make sure it's what you want to do for the rest of your life before investing a lot of money, 

I've   been eyeballing a mito set on eBay that's way under my budget , it contains a gauge, 0-1 mic, 6in caliper , depth gauges that I have used multiple times already 4 weeks in , all are manually read no digi, I like the digis but I want to learn on the manuals, 

 Becoming a machinist and getting paid to do it for the rest of my life is my current goal, I've kind of fell in love with the precision involved and technicalities of this trade, I come from a carpentry background and still make wood furniture and such as a hobby, it seems that machinist will be around forever, and I can translate machining to my new found hobby of knife pocket tool making.

 I'll buy some decent stuff to start with, my dad being involved auto repair pretty much got me addicted to expensive tools! Lol , so this is somewhere I will not skimp on quality.

 Mito and Brown and Sharpe are what I'm looking at right now.

thanks guys


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## chuckorlando (Oct 18, 2014)

Let me explain this a bit as maybe I left some confusion. First off the only tool we were told to buy was digi calipers. We could buy what ever, but we had to have digi calipers. The school provided every tool you could want, except digi calipers. He was no against you using regular ones just dont buy them for your only pair. And dont use them for most your checks. That might be all about a time factor..... 30 guys trying to use 3 lathes with 3hrs a night to get in..... 

As far as reading them goes.. Well we got tested many times on our ability to properly read mics, calipers, degree and minutes and everything in between. If you cant do it your stay in class and learn it. no shop time.

Now the idea behind this is really simple. Use the digi for roughing and cutting stock. If you need a 5in part use the digi to measure 5.1 and cut it. Then use it to turn down to 5-10thou from where you want to be. Then you switch over to venier mics and bring it to spec.

I use calipers all the time. Even to get to size on alot of things. But if I need to bore a hole and it has to be on the number I will mic it.If I intended to get more accurate with calipers I would use exactly what Bill suggested. Vernier dials. I have considered some nice mitt's in digi. But I have a hard time putting that much faith in electrics. It's foolish I know. But I would always be afraid it was reading wrong. With analog I know how to set them and know it's right or wrong on my merit not the tools ahahahahaha

I dont think it matters how you get to the number so long as the number is got.





darkzero said:


> That's interesting & amusing. I took the conventional machining course with my lil brother at the local community since I was his ride anyway, glad I did & decided to finish the entire course without him. Our instructor (now retired) specifically did not want us to use digital anything, dial or vernier only. We were not required to buy our own tools, they were loaned to us, the tool room guy supported the use of non-digital for learning. The loaner dial calipers they had were such pieces of craps that it really challenged you to get a decent reading. This taught you how to get a feel for the different ones & how much pressure was too much. I'm thankful for that.
> 
> And digital micrometers, forget it. You had to use vernier mics to learn & get familiarized with reading vernier scales. We did have a nice digi Mitu height guage & Starrett digi calipers but new students were not allowed to use it. Only the tool room guy was allowed to use the digitals. Funny how people teach in different ways but not surprising.
> 
> Well guess what I mostly use at home, digital calipers & micrometers! All Mitu though. I use them cause they save me time. But I do have a 0-6" vernier mic set now which I use occasionally & for anything bigger than 2". My height guage & 12" calipers (also Mitu) are verniers & is what I wanted them to be. If you can't tell, I prefer Mitu.


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## Bill Gruby (Oct 18, 2014)

My Precision Calipers don't even have a dial. They are true Verniers. I don't use them much now because they are difficult to read. I do however use the Dial type quite q bit. Thank you Chuck for r taking the time to explain your first post.

 "Billy G"


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## tbell (Oct 18, 2014)

Hi a little advise. There is nothing more expensive than a cheap tool. If you use it once and disgard OK if you mean to use it a life time don't go to HF for your precision tools. Just saying. Tom


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## chuckorlando (Oct 18, 2014)

My verniers are as yours. Made in Germany. Little scale you gotta find the matched line. Very nice. But it takes me 10min to find that little line. So I would use a dial if thats the way I was gonna do it. Just hard to see. 





Bill Gruby said:


> My Precision Calipers don't even have a dial. They are true Verniers. I don't use them much now because they are difficult to read. I do however use the Dial type quite q bit. Thank you Chuck for r taking the time to explain your first post.
> 
> "Billy G"


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## JimDawson (Oct 18, 2014)

Bill Gruby said:


> My Precision Calipers don't even have a dial. *They are true Verniers. I don't use them much now because they are difficult to read.* I do however use the Dial type quite q bit. Thank you Chuck for r taking the time to explain your first post.
> 
> "Billy G"



You need new bifocals Bill   I just use my eye loupe.:rofl:


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## chuckorlando (Oct 18, 2014)

I do agree with you. All my mics are quality. But I got it all used. For all the starrett stuff I have I maybe have 200 tied up in it. But the other side of that coin is your a student surrounded by students and none of you got a clue. If you want high end stuff buy it used. You will be one sad puppy when your 300 buck intrepid gets dropped. So I would learn on used or cheap





tbell said:


> Hi a little advise. There is nothing more expensive than a cheap tool. If you use it once and disgard OK if you mean to use it a life time don't go to HF for your precision tools. Just saying. Tom


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## David Kirtley (Oct 18, 2014)

Many of the tools we see as junk today would have been better than the top of the line 100 years ago. Some are better than what was available 50 years ago. Quality precision tools have their place. Not every place demands them. Depending on the need and the task, cheap tools can be perfect. In the machine shop on the other side of my building, they have all sorts of kids working on their own projects and whole classes of students doing lab assignments. You don't go out and buy all top quality tools. You get a bunch of inexpensive ones and a nice set for them to check out when the work demands the precision. 

Want to have several around the shop, in the car, or anywhere else dedicated to that place?  Get a handful and sprinkle them around. I have a few in my desk at work. Someone comes and asks to borrow a tool, I have no hesitation about loaning them out.


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## Rick Leslie (Oct 18, 2014)

First off, welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of machine work. If you're like most here, you have a passion for turning big hunk of metal into works of precision art. 

I second (third or forth even) analog gauges. It's like learning to tell time. How many kids today can't read a 'real' watch or clock? I've been doing this for close to 35 years and I've never owned anything digital (except a calculator). I still have my first set of Mit mics and Starrett dial calipers. Make sure to get a 'standard' (calibration gauge block) with the mics.  6 inch calipers and 0-6 inch set of mics will handle most jobs.


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## spaceman_spiff (Oct 22, 2014)

I would recommend:

6" harbor freight digital calipers $10 (new)
1" harbor freight digital micrometer $30 (new)
set of 2" and beyond micrometers that read in tenths, analog or digital $100 (new)
shars +/- 0.030" finger style dial test indicator with range dial and 0.0005" resolution $65 (new)
mitutoyo +/- 0.008" finger style dial test indicator with 0.0001" resolution $50 (used, tons on ebay)

And without specifics, because I dont know:

-an inside diameter measurement device
-feeler gauges
-telescoping bore gauge set
-steel graduated rules

and save the rest of your budget to buy what you need as you need it


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## Holescreek (Oct 22, 2014)

After a lengthy machining career I took a job in the quality control department of a major supplier of OEM automotive parts. A percentage of my job involves repairing and calibrating measuring equipment so I have lots of expensive equipment for calibrating and verifying gauges at my disposal. I'm far from being a gauge snob but have tested some of the off-brand items mentioned just to see if they measured up.  I use the HF calipers as digital readouts on my Bridgeport spindles and on my lathe tail stock at home because they're cheap and it didn't bother me to chop them up to fit.  Before modifying them I brought them into the lab just to see how good they were. Surprisingly, the outside measuring jaws were pretty good, impressive actually. The inside measuring jaws and the depth rod are kind of hit or miss as far as correlating with the OD jaws but are good enough for rough work. Internally, the electronics of the HF calipers are identical to an early model of Mitutoyo, it's the grinding of the inside jaws and the depth rod that isn't always correct. Off brand indicators have their place too, but only as a zero reference, never for actually measuring using the graduations on the dial. I consider Shars and SPI to be off-brand.  For my money, anything Mitutoyo is a great deal for a good price.


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## OrangeJasper (Nov 8, 2014)

Thanks!


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## Smithdoor (Nov 8, 2014)

I have found calipers as digital readouts and dial will hold on a day to day use ±.002 (0.05mm)
Use mic after getting down to with in .020" (.50mm) the mic will repeat ±.0001 (.0025) on ever day for most machinist 
Note if you use old mic's check at the 1/2" (13mm) mark too I have one that test at 1/2" mark at .503 (12.776mm) it still will repeat ± .00005 (.0013mm) still work for setting ball bearings.
I use both digital readouts, dial calipers and mic's for my work most shop like you using mic's

Dave


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## Andre (Nov 8, 2014)

You don't have to buy new, either. My two mikes (starrett 230's, old and newer one) have both been WELL used but are still very accurate. 


I'd advise you look for used tools over new, they are plenty accurate and MUCH cheaper than new. That means you can use your remaining money to put towards other things.

Here is a GREAT deal on ebay! http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-USED-VINT...445?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4adf17f25d


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## Smithdoor (Nov 8, 2014)

I have them for over 40 years and I have 4 sets including Starrett up to 0 to 17" I had a MFG where I supply the tools too. 
As long as the mic repeats good to go.

Dave



Andre said:


> You don't have to buy new, either. My two mikes (starrett 230's, old and newer one) have both been WELL used but are still very accurate.
> 
> 
> I'd advise you look for used tools over new, they are plenty accurate and MUCH cheaper than new. That means you can use your remaining money to put towards other things.
> ...


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## Pat of TN (Nov 8, 2014)

I went through this very same process two years ago. Brings back some memories.

Here's my advice, buddy. At this point in time, I would not buy the best you can. Start with a passable-quality but cheaper tool. Once you add more to your budget down the road, you can replace them one-by-one with quality.

Why do I say this? As a person new to the trade and possibly new to the handling of sensitive, precision equipment, you will slip up and drop something, or drop something on something, etc.. It happened to me. I started with $30 Kobalt calipers from Lowe's. After about six months, I dropped a drill chuck on them.

Now on to my picks.

I started off with Fowler micrometers. I bought a 0-1" at first, then added a 1-2 and then a 2-3. I find these mics to be pretty good, in fact. In testing with gage blocks, mine read within .0002" at any point. For a beginning student, that would be more than satisfactory.

A 0-3 set of Fowler mics will set you back a shade under $150, if I recall. Make sure that they read tenths (.0001"). A "tenths" mic can be recognized by having a vernier scale wrapping around the circumference of the micrometer barrel, above the main .025" scale. 

As far as the thimble type, ratchet vs. friction, I would prefer friction. They are smooth, compared to click-click-click. Some say the clicking and ratcheting action can affect super-precise measurements. The ones I own are ratchet, but I would prefer friction.

A note on mics - take care of them. They are the most useful, and most precise tool you will own. Do not drop them, do not get them dirty, do not lay them just anywhere. Most of all, do not - I repeat, do not - close them with any more force than the friction or ratchet thimble will allow. 

A good caliper will be your best friend to start out with. Looking at modern industry, you are looking at digital calipers (and even mics, were they not so much more expensive), if for one reason: the magic button marked "INCH / MM". Among other utilitarian features.

But there is nothing wrong with learning to read a dial caliper. They are easy to read, and some (like myself) prefer them from an aesthetic point. I'd recommend a 6" caliper in the $60-70 range, which would be Fowler or SPI, again.

If you have the money, move up to an 8" caliper. You get a longer measuring range, as well as longer jaws. This can also mean slightly enhanced rigidity for measurement as well.

A cheaper caliper is good, as they are, as some have said, more your beat-around measuring tool. Still, that really isn't much of an excuse. If you can - take care of them! 

But I would advise getting a high-quality digital caliper when you become accustomed to precision tools. I own a 6" set of Mitutoyo Absolute digitals. They are $155 from Enco, and I swear to you, they are the best digital calipers in existence. Highly coolant resistant, and the pair I own? Even being a caliper, they check dead on with any size gage block. Even the ID jaws measure very near to a measurement with a telescoping gage and a mic.

For an indicator, I would recommend a test indicator first. These have a long, pivoting needle and offer higher accuracy in most cases. What type? Even without budget considerations (barring a $400 Interapid) - get a Fowler X-Test. With a pivoting shank and needle, and a quite beefy body, a .0005 X-Test will serve all your needs. The pivoting shank adds a huge amount of versatility.

One more piece of advise is a good indicator holder, both for a test indicator and for the eventual normal dial indicator you will lust for. For that, the only answer is Noga. A Noga holder with a universal single clamp and head-mounted fine adjustment. They are somewhat pricey, but they cannot be beat. I know from experience that cheaper brands such as MHC is a waste of time and money.

You can also unscrew it from the magnetic base, make a solid shank for it, and use it on a mill for extended tramming or sweeping in a large round piece.

Lastly is a deburring tool, as you mention. I believe Enco has a two-piece set of Shaviv Vargus deburring tools for $22? One with small blades, one large. Shaviv makes some of the best deburring tools. It is something that will not wear out, so splurge now.

I seem to have rambled a bit, but it's taken me a good half hour to write this up. I may post more later.


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## Andre (Nov 8, 2014)

Pat, a lot of real good info there^^^

As I said I have two Starrett 230's, the older is a ratchet and the newer is friction. To be honest.....they both work just fine. Both have their quirks, but I prefer the friction one because I don't have to reach the very end of the mike to use it. 

Not all mikes have friction or ratchet mechanisms, some you have to learn to feel. I have two Handy brand 0, .5  mikes that used to be sold by Woolworths. You have to feel when to stop turning the thimble with them. turn them very lightly until they mechanically stop. Then STOP turning the thimble! Any more and it's unneeded stress on the mike and warrants an inaccurate reading. When you get used to using a mike you can start to feel things that will cause a bad reading, like debris or a burr on the anvils.

I'd send you some tools but I'm just starting out too, all the mikes or calipers I have are very sentimental. Good luck on your search!


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## Jonesturf (Nov 8, 2014)

Well when I started out I bought a bunch of stuff I didn't need. Then I had to buy more stuff because I realized I just didn't like what I had or it sits in my toolbox never to be used again. Nothing wrong with good used stuff on eBay too. You can tell if something is beat.

I would recommend a $20 digital caliper for now. I still use mine all the time. A mitutoyo absolute is in my opinion the best. Get that after you haven't dropped the cheap one for a month straight. 

I like mitutoyo mics. Personally I've been using the digital ones with the dials (not the digital screen). They are easy to read quickly to a thou and they have the vernier for tenths.

Get a .001 test indicator to start. A .0005 doesn't have the range when you're learning to dial stuff in. I picked up an interapid off eBay for $50 that runs like a champ. Once you get used to it you can dial in a couple tenths on it pretty easily. You may know by then what you want. 

Spend some money on an indicator base. Get a Noga. You'll thank me later. 

If you're gonna stick with it you might as well buy good stuff from the start (buy once, cry once) and learn to take care of it. Why waste your money on junk when you're measuring to tenths? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


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## Jonesturf (Nov 8, 2014)

Some files might be helpful too. Forgot to mention that. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


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## chuckorlando (Nov 8, 2014)

I agree with the noga. I got a cheap mag base to start. It works just fine. But it's such a pain to use. Them noga's are instant happy. Even the knock version at work is way better then the dual rod styles.

I use a 12 and a 4in caliper. I like the 12 but the 4 saves a ton of table cranks when checking a part.

The only tool I would say was a waste of money for me was a harbor freight dial indicator. I have never used it. Just dont seem smooth to me. Every other tool I have, even the top quality ones, will one day be my beater set. They will all be replaced with new at some point for them special jobs.

It's real ice to have angle blocks or joe blocks that are beater tools. I use my beater joe blocks to set quill depth more then any thing. So fast to touch off and lock the quill, throw the stack up there and run the stop up to it. Done. I would never use a set of mitts like that, even cheap ebay ones. Those are special

But then again, I have 15 pairs of pliers the same size ahahaha


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## Andre (Nov 8, 2014)

Hey Chuck, I have a Brown and Sharpe dial indicator stand, has two rods and one little lever locks both of them instantly. Not quite the freedom of a Noga but I like it. Plus it was a good deal for $15 with a BS indicator


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## chuckorlando (Nov 8, 2014)

A lever would be  1000x better then what I got ahaha. But even that works just fine. But thats one tool I wish I would have bought a better quality to start.


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## Jonesturf (Nov 8, 2014)

A cheap set of Joe blocks, as said before, is very handy. You don't need anything expensive there yet. I have some starrert/Weber stuff I check every so often to make sure it hasn't move haha but it never comes out really. 

Maybe a surface plate for layout work? Enco imports are pretty cheap with free shipping codes. Height gage to go with it would be a Starrett 254 or similar. Something with a knob and a leadscrew on the back so you can adjust quickly. Not a necessity but sooo much nicer than your regular height gage. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


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## Andre (Nov 8, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> A lever would be  1000x better then what I got ahaha. But even that works just fine. But thats one tool I wish I would have bought a better quality to start.



Actually....the BS dial indicator isn't the best, or at least mine isn't. It's a 1" plunge .0005 reading indicator, reads nice and accurate (and I LOVE the half thou readout) but the plunger is real squeaky. I lubricated it with kerosene but no help. I opened the back and it's all enclosed. China ones are smoother and exposed in the back for lubrication.


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## Jonesturf (Nov 8, 2014)

And as far as dial indicators go anything with a decent name should work. Don't go cheap on those. A .001 should be fine for most stuff. Any more than that you're probably gonna be using a test indicator...at least I do for checking runout and such.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


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## Andre (Nov 8, 2014)

Jonesturf said:


> A cheap set of Joe blocks, as said before, is very handy. You don't need anything expensive there yet. I have some starrert/Weber stuff I check every so often to make sure it hasn't move haha but it never comes out really.
> 
> Maybe a surface plate for layout work? Enco imports are pretty cheap with free shipping codes. Height gage to go with it would be a Starrett 254 or similar. Something with a knob and a leadscrew on the back so you can adjust quickly. Not a necessity but sooo much nicer than your regular height gage.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2



Surface plates are nice to have, and if you know a guy with a surface grinder you can grind one out of steel easily. I have a piece of steel set aside for when my grinder comes in to make a small plate....(see signature)


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## chuckorlando (Nov 8, 2014)

Though I agree surface plates are very needed, he wont be able to carry one to school. What he needs is the basics to fill a decent little tool box. The school should provide SP and dykum and all that. If not he needs a good roller and some locks ahahaha


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## JPigg55 (Nov 8, 2014)

Don't know what people here think, but I've found good reviews on igaging tools.
Most of their stuff is digital, but not all. Fairly good pricing as well.
igaging store: http://www.igagingstore.com/?Click=7
I bought their 8" digital caliper when I ordered my Absolute DRO. I'd seen a video review on Youtube that compared it favorably with Mitotoyo.
I have an 8" Mitotoyo digital caliper as well. Looks, feel, funtionallity seem almost identical.
Great prices too.


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## chuckorlando (Nov 8, 2014)

I use igaging on my mill. They work as well as I could have ever hoped. Never seen their calipers.


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