# Kingston HL-1500 ..... When is a lathe too big?



## acruxksa (Feb 13, 2022)

Greetings All,

This is probably a stupid question and I already kind of know the answer but figured I'd ask anyway.  There is a Kingston HL-1500 lathe for sale locally.  We don't get a whole lot of used lathes for sale up here in Alaska, consequently, my questions.  I currently own a clapped out Atlas 10" and am looking to upgrade.  I can only dream of the prices and availability of used lathes down in the lower 48 and have realized that I will likely just have to cut my wine consumption and save for a PM-1340GT and the shipping that comes with it.  Then a 21" x 60"  5,000lb + lathe comes up locally for sale at a very fair price............  I know it's too large and to add to the issue, it comes with a 10hp 3-phase motor.  The only way I could make it work is with a VFD, However, I already have a 50A 240v service to our electric vehicle charger and 2 30a 240v services for my air compressor and mill.  (Granted, neither come even close to 30a, Air compressor draws about 8A and whatever the PM-30 draws).  All on a 100a panel dedicated to the garage and exterior lighting (all exterior lights are led). 

My questions are as follows:

1) Can you run a 10hp 3 phase motor reliably on a 10hp vfd?  I realize I will be losing some HP/Torque, but would the lathe still be usable?
2) Can you still do smaller work similar to what I can do on the atlas 10" with a 21" x 60" lathe?  I ask because this thing is large enough that I would have to get rid of the atlas due to space constraints.
3) Is the Kingston HL-1500 considered a good lathe?


----------



## woodchucker (Feb 13, 2022)

I will throw up one word of caution, a 21 " 10hp lathe can kill you very quickly.  Just get caught by the chuck and it's game over. If you have never worked near a big chuck, it's a scary thing.

Can a big lathe do small work?
Yes, you can stick a small chuck in the big chuck and hold small pieces which on a 18" chuck, might have a 1" minimum piece size. I don't know what the min is I am guessing.  So putting an 8" chuck in the larger one is done often enough. Changing the big chuck is a big job, so it's much easier to just do aforementioned process.

Can a 10hp be run on a 10hp vfd.. I don't know, I would suspect yes, it's tight. You have to realize you are not using 10hp until you load that lathe up with heavy cuts. Up until that point you might be using 5-7.5 hp. 

If it were me, I would look for something smaller. But that's me. If you were going to be doing this as a business, it could be a good purchase for the future.

if you are only going to be a hobbiest looking for a smaller lathe, keep looking, this is not a hobby lathe, it's a suck up fluids, power, expensive tooling lathe. If you are working on big farm equip, trucks, industrial equip, this is the lathe you will need to do the big jobs.

I am sure others here will chime in and you will here many other opinions... I'm curious where they are at.


----------



## akjeff (Feb 14, 2022)

One thing to keep in mind with a lathe that large, is the weight( and expense ) of the chucks/tooling that are normally on them. Once you get into 12"+ chucks ( especially if they are a chuck with a separate backplate ) you pretty much need some sort of lifting apparatus to move them. I've got an 8" Bison Set Tru 3 jaw, and a 10" Bison direct mount 4 jaw on my 14x40 lathe, and I don't think that I'd care to handle much more without a jib or gantry crane in the shop, or a cherry picker. Tooling is another consideration. With a 21" swing, that's going to mean an industrial size tool post, and 1" plus shank cutters. Big $$$.

I think it would be pretty tough finding a VFD much larger than 5hp with a 1P input. A 10hp motor is putting you in either rotary converter and/or Phase Perfect territory. Don't know enough about static converters to comment on them.

I recently upgraded from a 12"x36" Atlas/Craftsman to a 5hp 14"x40", and you can definitely still do smaller work.


----------



## FOMOGO (Feb 14, 2022)

Ten hp VFD's are available for under $200, and I think you could successfully run that lathe off one. I would snap it up, but I love big, old machines, and have the equipment to move them. Mike


----------



## acruxksa (Feb 14, 2022)

I know it's too large, but it's literally 2/3 the price of the Southbend heavy 10 that's also for sale locally.  The difference being the Southbend has been for sale for 6 months and comes with postage size pics......................it's a phishing scam.  Depsite the price, I'd probably buy the Southbend tomorrow if I wasn't so sure it was a scam.  End result, I know the Kingston HL-1500 is a well maintained lathe for $3000K but way to large and the Southbend Heavy 10 is suspect, most likely a scam for $4500.  None of them come with very much extra.  My clapped out Atlas came with almost every attachment and lots of extras for far less.  It's just never going to get me where I want to go, but a great learning tool along the way.  

Realistically, I'm probably never going to work with material larger than 6" diameter and shafts requiring more than about a 1.5" spindle bore.  I know the HL-1500 is far larger than this, but It's still a very intriguing option.

As for danger, I work in a very small and highly specialized field and apparently have a 1 in 20 chance of dying.  That's what the stats say, but as with everything, there are always procedures in place that if followed, help mitigate risk.  I'm aware of the risks in just about everything in life and rarely take them unnecessarily


----------



## akjeff (Feb 14, 2022)

acruxksa said:


> I know it's too large, but it's literally 2/3 the price of the Southbend 10" heavty that's also for sale locally.  The difference being the southbend has been for sale for 6 months and comes with postage size pics......................it's a phishing scam.   Depsite the price, I'd probably buy the southbend tomorrow if I wasn't so sure it was a scam.  End result, I know the Kingston HL-1500 is a well maintained lathe for $3000K but way to large and the Southbend Heavy 10 is suspect, most likely a scam for $4500.  None of them come with very much extra.  My clapped out Atlas came with almost every attachment and lots of extras for far less.  It's just never going to get me where I want to go, but a great learning tool along the way.
> 
> As for danger, I work in a very small and highly specialized field and apparently have a 1 in 20 chance of dying.  That's what the stats say, but as with everything, there are always procedures in place that if followed, help mitigate risk.


That S.B. Heavy 10 has been on Alaskaslist for years, and sold long ago. A lot of ads on that site are stale, and never removed for whatever reason. Pretty sure the Kingston ad is also old news, and that lathe is now with a new owner. Any more, I pretty much avoid Alaskaslist due to all of the old ads that never leave.


----------



## turnitupper (Feb 14, 2022)

acruxksa said:


> As for danger, I work in a very small and highly specialized field and apparently have a 1 in 20 chance of dying. That's what the stats say,


Sorry but the stats are wrong. You have exactly a 1 in 1 chance.
John.


----------



## acruxksa (Feb 14, 2022)

turnitupper said:


> Sorry but the stats are wrong. You have exactly a 1 in 1 chance.
> John.


Yep, should have said 1 in 20 chance of dying in the job . Still, at 52yrs old, I've been shot at in Punta Arenas Chile, stood on top of a moving train in Cairns Australia and beaten up and thrown out of a bar in Guam ( 18 stitches).  Nothing has ever scared me more than pre loading the springs on my garage door.


----------



## acruxksa (Feb 14, 2022)

Kingston ad isn't old news, my wife works with the daughter of the owner.  They offered to sell it to me several months ago for 4k, but I saw the size and chickened out. Now at 3k, common sense still says no, but I've been known to do stupid things before.


----------



## Aukai (Feb 14, 2022)

Depending on condition, and if you have the room, I'd buy it


----------



## acruxksa (Feb 14, 2022)

Aukai said:


> Depending on condition, and if you have the room, I'd buy it



It would seriously cramp my work space, but is theoretically possible if a little cramped.  Not sure a power solution for the 10hp 3phase motor is doable though.  It's probably possible, but I've only got a 100a service in the garage and already have 1-50a breaker and 2-30a breakers on it in addition to the 120v 20a outlets and exterior lights.

I'm probably going to pass given that there really isn't much/if any tooling with it and the size creates even more cost for me in Alaska.


----------



## ArmyDoc (Feb 14, 2022)

One other consideration is top RPM.  Not familiar with that lathe, but larger lathes often have lower top RPM.  If you are planning to do smaller work, that might or might not be limiting depending on the material.

I don't have a lot of personal experience with this, so more experienced guys may want to chime in.   But in choosing a lathe, I am looking for one that has a top RPM greater than 2000.  The reason for this is that I expect to do small parts in aluminum.  Steel has a cutting speed of 30-100 ft/min depending on type.  But aluminum has a much higher cutting speed of 400-1000 ft/min.  So, if I am calculating this correctly, a 1 inch diameter part is ~3.14 inches in circumfrence, so #4 rpm is 1ft /min.  To turn aluminum you need more than 1600 RPM.  Some larger and/or older lathes have a maximum of 1500rpm.


----------



## Watchwatch (Feb 14, 2022)

1in diameter aluminum and ~1000 RPM turns nicely with a sharp tool. HSS or ground carbide.

Is the lathe in good shape? If so buy it OP. Put a 10inch 6 jaw chuck on it and call it a day. Big chucks are not fun up close. I spent some time on a 24inch 4 jaw in my youth and don’t recommend it unless it’s required for the work.

You might have to make some adapters for smaller tooling, but it shouldn’t be complicated.

VFD and juggle the 50amp outlet with other machines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rabler (Feb 14, 2022)

Typically to run a 10HP motor on single phase you use a 20HP vfd.  That double accounts for the lack of phases.  You need a vfd that allows phase loss detection to be disabled.  A smaller vfd will often trip off on motor startup (inrush current) even if you don’t need the horsepower.
50A at 220v single phase is probably a little light to run it, plan on 60-75.  Still within a 100a service as long as you limit what else runs. Again inrush on startup is the challenge.

Otherwise, for a big lathe, room to house it, max rpm, and ability to rig/move it into place are considerations.  I have a 25x50 Monarch 612 at nearly 10,000 lbs.  Hard to beat shear size and mass.  Mine came with a 20HP motor, which I replaced with a 10HP and used the 20 to build an RPC.  That lathe max’s at 1500 rpm. 

I use carbide on aluminum on a 1000 rpm max lathe.  I’m cutting at less than optimal speed but it works well enough.

Any floor size lathe can kill or maim.  With bigger lathes, the hazard to be aware of is that bad setups don’t jam and stop the lathe, something gives way, often violently.

Me, I’d gobble it up on a heartbeat.


----------



## Janderso (Feb 14, 2022)

You can’t do big stuff on a small lathe.
I’d be on my way right now. $3,000 for a known good lathe…..? What’s the question?
My 15x50 is too big fir some. It’s perfect for me.


----------



## f350ca (Feb 14, 2022)

Large lathes can certainly do small work, but they awkward. Hard to see what your doing and the dials are generally stiffer.
I have a 16 x 80 Summit thats built heavier than the Kingston. I do small work on it regularly now, often before I got an accurate small lathe.
The Kingston doesn't have a clutch, so your starting the motor loaded every time, not a small feat with large chucks and work pieces. I use a Phase Perfect solid state 3 phase generator to run the Summits 10 hp motor which starts unloaded as it uses a wet cutch to spin up the spindle. I'd be tempted to go with a rotary converter to run it for cost savings.

Greg


----------



## John O (Feb 14, 2022)

Does the voltage make a difference, I didn't see it mentioned. Commercial in Canada is usually 600v


----------



## akjeff (Feb 14, 2022)

acruxksa said:


> Kingston ad isn't old news, my wife works with the daughter of the owner.  They offered to sell it to me several months ago for 4k, but I saw the size and chickened out. Now at 3k, common sense still says no, but I've been known to do stupid things before.


Well, I guess Bob's must have a second Kingston HL1500 they're selling. That looks similar to the one they sold last November. Machines like that, at that price, usually don't stay for sale for more than a few hours, let alone a few months in Alaska! Good luck with the search.


----------



## woodchucker (Feb 14, 2022)

acruxksa said:


> Yep, should have said 1 in 20 chance of dying in the job . Still, at 52yrs old, I've been shot at in Punta Arenas Chile, stood on top of a moving train in Cairns Australia and beaten up and thrown out of a bar in Guam ( 18 stitches).  Nothing has ever scared me more than pre loading the springs on my garage door.


oh, preloading springs on a garage door is cake..


----------



## ConValSam (Feb 14, 2022)

Rigging a lathe that size will introduce a whole set of issues as well. And once you set it it won't move again unless you go through the entire process again.


----------



## jwmay (Feb 14, 2022)

From my standpoint, running a 1660 at work is not nearly as fun as running my Atlas at home. Everything is easy to lift at home. I don't have to brace myself before sliding the tailstock up. A chuck change takes 30 seconds. The tooling is lighter, and won't break my foot if I drop it.  It's quieter. Now I can't take big bites at home either. But that tradeoff is worth it, with no production deadlines.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Feb 14, 2022)

I'll weigh in here just to say that if you buy the Kingston, before long you will find yourself looking/wishing for something smaller. I have an SB Heavy 10, and while I drool over the 14-15 in. lathes, only once has my SB been too small (and then by only 1/4 in.). I would like to have a larger lathe as an addition, but not as a replacement. 

Others have mentioned the cost of tooling and powering that Kingston. Whatever you might save on the initial purchase will be consumed, and then some. I understand the temptation, but since you have a lathe now you can afford to continue to wait for something more practical. Just keep cash on hand and be prepared to drop everything at the very instant that something shows up. Trying to get a seller to wait until you can get to the bank usually ends with someone else getting the deal.

I'll also mention that power consumption is no small issue. It only took 1 month of modest use with my 7.5 hp RPC for mama to scream about the electric bill.


----------



## Aaron_W (Feb 14, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> I'll weigh in here just to say that if you buy the Kingston, before long you will find yourself looking/wishing for something smaller. I have an SB Heavy 10, and while I drool over the 14-15 in. lathes, only once has my SB been too small (and then by only 1/4 in.). I would like to have a larger lathe as an addition, but not as a replacement.
> 
> Others have mentioned the cost of tooling and powering that Kingston. Whatever you might save on the initial purchase will be consumed, and then some. I understand the temptation, but since you have a lathe now you can afford to continue to wait for something more practical. Just keep cash on hand and be prepared to drop everything at the very instant that something shows up. Trying to get a seller to wait until you can get to the bank usually ends with someone else getting the deal.
> 
> I'll also mention that power consumption is no small issue. It only took 1 month of modest use with my 7.5 hp RPC for mama to scream about the electric bill.



Agree there are hidden costs to large machines, tooling costs more, you may need accessories to move that big tooling, it costs more to run, not only electricity but also lubricants, parts etc. Then there is moving it into your shop. Most people can manage up to 12x36 / Bridgeport, but much bigger than that and you start factoring in the cost of rental equipment or even hiring riggers. 

Ideally you have machines that can do your largest regular work, plus a little bit extra for the outlier projects. Just a guess, but the average home shop is probably actually over served by a 12x36" lathe which is why that is such a popular size. How many people really turn something 4-6" in diameter or longer than 24-36" in a home shop? I bet 2" diameter and 12-20" in length is a big part for many who own a 12x36 lathe.

The people who can actually make use of a 16" or larger lathe probably also have access to heavy equipment and the experience of moving heavy things to affordably get it into their shop. 

So yes, if you have a good 14x40" lathe you might be able to make a watch, but it is a poor machine choice if you are a watch maker.


----------



## acruxksa (Feb 15, 2022)

akjeff said:


> Well, I guess Bob's must have a second Kingston HL1500 they're selling. That looks similar to the one they sold last November. Machines like that, at that price, usually don't stay for sale for more than a few hours, let alone a few months in Alaska! Good luck with the search.


I don't have an answer for that, just that the lathe was for sale from a step-father that passed away in November.  I agree that they don't usually last long, but it was posted just a week or so ago, but with different pictures from the ones I initially had and for $1k less than I was originally quoted.


woodchucker said:


> oh, preloading springs on a garage door is cake..


  It's the simple things that will kill you.   Seriously though, standing on a ladder winding a 48" long spring with two 3/8" x 16" bars isn't something I will ever do again. 

I really do appreciate everyone's comments and am still torn on the lathe.  However, as with a previous 12x36 I had a chance at recently, it's not exactly what I want and would require too many compromises and accommodations.  Some of which I don't see as bad things.  I really appreciate the idea of replacing the motor with a 5hp 3 phase and using the 10hp motor as a rotary phase converter.  Excellent idea even if the motor HP wasn't the same in the original.

In the end, the ability to move my equipment around is probably the most important consideration. That and tooling would likely cost as much as a new 1340 GT  

Thanks all, I'm going to keep looking.  Just getting frustrated with the limited options up here.


----------



## RJSakowski (Feb 15, 2022)

I really don't understand the need/desire for large iron. 

A lathe needn't be larger than the largest anticipated work.  I understand that having several tons of iron increases rigidity and solves some machining problems with brute force but there is ample evidence that a small lathe user can overcome these issues and still turn out some excellent work.  

There are problems with owning a multi-ton lathe which must be dealt with:  they are physically large and they esquire a suitable foundation to stand on. Moving them around requires some heavy equipment and occurs with risk, probably best left to professionals. Unless you are into weight lifting, safely changing a chuck will require some sort of gantry and lifting mechanism.

Large machines require significant power to run and at a significant cost. Power requirements for a 10 hp three phase motor would strain most residential electrical service. Beefing up that service to handle the demand isn't cheap. 

While you can do small work on a large machine, you aren't going to be turning that spindle at 3K rpm.  Tooling costs for a large lathe are going to be considerably more than for a small lathe and maintenance costs as well.  By them time you consider all of these factors, that super bargain that you find irresistible may be resistible after all.


----------



## acruxksa (Feb 16, 2022)

RJSakowski said:


> I really don't understand the need/desire for large iron.
> 
> A lathe needn't be larger than the largest anticipated work.  I understand that having several tons of iron increases rigidity and solves some machining problems with brute force but there is ample evidence that a small lathe user can overcome these issues and still turn out some excellent work.
> 
> ...



You don't understand because you don't live in Alaska.  Quite simply, lathes are as rare as hens teeth.  My options are either to purchase a new PM lathe with the rather large shipping charge (not PM's fault, just a cost of living in the Greatland  ) or find a use lathe locally.......Used lathes in the 12x36 or 13x40 or 14x40 range just don't come up for sale.  This means I have to consider other options.  One thing I know is that I'm done with atlas and the "old" hobby lathes.  my Atlas 10" was a great lathe to learn on, but I'm running into issues with the limited spindle bore. 

The sad fact is that shipping for the tooling on the Kingston Lathe would probably add up to the cost of the lathe alone.


----------



## Aukai (Feb 16, 2022)

What size is the tool post, and what holders does it use?


----------



## jwmay (Feb 16, 2022)

I thought you said you were gonna keep looking. 
But since you mentioned it. If your option is a new PM machine or a massive old lathe. I'd go for the new PM machine. Or Grizzly. I really liked my Grizzly. But not this year ok, because I might want to order myself one, and there's too many people on the list already. Lol. 
But if you could get the massive lathe for like $500, then it might be ok. Seems to take a LOT of money to repair those old ones.


----------



## Cadillac STS (Feb 16, 2022)

Random thought..  Since you are in Alaska and it may get 50 below zero or colder would you need a block heater like for a car on the gearbox of a large lathe like that?  Easily doable just wondered if that is what people do with large machines unless in climate controlled buildings.


----------



## RJSakowski (Feb 16, 2022)

acruxksa said:


> You don't understand because you don't live in Alaska.  Quite simply, lathes are as rare as hens teeth.  My options are either to purchase a new PM lathe with the rather large shipping charge (not PM's fault, just a cost of living in the Greatland  ) or find a use lathe locally.......Used lathes in the 12x36 or 13x40 or 14x40 range just don't come up for sale.  This means I have to consider other options.  One thing I know is that I'm done with atlas and the "old" hobby lathes.  my Atlas 10" was a great lathe to learn on, but I'm running into issues with the limited spindle bore.
> 
> The sad fact is that shipping for the tooling on the Kingston Lathe would probably add up to the cost of the lathe alone.


I can certainly understand the spindle bore issue.  I really like my Grizzly G0602 with it's 1" spindle bore vs, the 1/2" on my Atlas/Craftsman lathe.  I if were building rifles though, it wouldn't work for me.  As I said, the size of the lathe is dictated by the anticipated work. 

Alaska isn't the only machine desert in the country.  There aren't that many local sources of industrial machines where I live.  I occasionally check Facebook Marketplace, Craigslist, etc. with very few offerings turning up.  There is a local auction house but they do mostly on line auctions and machine tool refurbisher/resellers haunt the site and usually set the bottom line bid.  Madison had a history of machine manufacturers at one time but that largely dried up years ago. More than a few educational institutions are getting out of the manual arts training (a sad story in its own right) but thet are selling through on line auction houses with resellers usually ending up with winning the bid.

I have done a few "too good to pass up" deals myself in the past and they usually turn out to cost me far more than the original purchase price to implement.  My suggestion would be to sit down with pencil and paper and determine what the total cost of the acquisition would be.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Feb 16, 2022)

Aukai said:


> What size is the tool post, and what holders does it use?


Might get away with a CA.


----------



## keeena (Feb 16, 2022)

Is that really a 21" swing? Or is it 15", 21" with gap bed removed?

It sounds like its probably overkill for what you do. As a tool junkie as well as appreciating nice equipment: I understand the difficulty in passing up good equipment at a great price. There is something to be said about the quality and operational feel of more industrial machines. (yes, I realize that this is possible in small lathes, but I feel like these are not as common).

My 2c is that once you get above 5hp/14" swing/40" bed, then you're starting to get into exponentially more serious territory - moving, electrical, operating cost, tooling, operation becomes a lot more to manage. I think what you're looking at is close (IMO) to an ideal "big" hobbyist lathe. Its too bad its not shorter. Would love to see pics -if in really good shape, DRO, includes tooling...yeah, I'd possibly break my own rules.


----------



## Cadillac STS (Feb 16, 2022)

Just an idea but since the owner of the lathe passed away do they know of anyone he was doing work for?  Some local people he helped out or did paying jobs for?  They may know or not.  But you could end up with some work to do with it since the machines are rare up there.  May even just meet a fellow hobby guy with a contact.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Feb 16, 2022)

keeena said:


> Is that really a 21" swing? Or is it 15", 21" with gap bed removed?
> 
> .


I did think it odd that the model number was 1500 with 21" swing. If an actual 15", it might be worth considering. In that case, a CXA toolpost would be right.


----------



## jwmay (Feb 16, 2022)

keeena said:


> My 2c is that once you get above 5hp/14" swing/40" bed, then you're starting to get into exponentially more serious territory - moving, electrical, operating cost, tooling, operation becomes a lot more to manage.


I haven't been at this long, but I feel like times are really changing on me. Seems I remember a time when the standard advice was "buy the biggest you can afford, or just buy a Southbend 10".   Now the Heavy Ten seems too small for the guys starting in the hobby now. Sorry, OT. 1440 is the new Heavy Ten. My how fast the world moves!


----------

