# Rockwell Vertical Knee Mill Milling Machine - $3,500 (Sacramento, CA)



## MrWhoopee

Rockwell Vertical Knee Mill Milling Machine - tools - by owner - sale
					

Rockwell Vertical Knee Mill Milling Machine. Perfect size for a garage or small shop. If you are...



					sacramento.craigslist.org


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## C-Bag

Wow, he must really like that mill!


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## eeler1

Curious what a reasonable price for this machine would be.  That ain’t it, but what is?


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## C-Bag

What ever the market will bare. Clausing and Rockwell are the holy grail of hobby mills evidently. Always too rich for my blood.


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## 38super

$500 - $1500, bit more with H mill option.


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## talvare

I suppose it just depends on the value a person places on older American iron. That mill kind of compares with many Asian machines available today. Like this: https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-8-x-30-1-1-2-HP-Vertical-Mill-with-Power-Feed/G0731

Ted


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## CuriousRambler

Man, that'd be a SWEET mill. If it was 1/3 the price, I'd probably have to grab it.


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## Janderso

Good size
I haven’t seen many of these
Yeah, too much $$


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## Janderso

You ok Mr Whoopee??


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## Aaron_W

These are close in size to the Clausing 8520, so desirable to the same people. From what I've seen they sell for a little less than the Clausings, although I would think they would be a little more desirable since they have an R-8 spindle, are supposedly a tad heavier. Some have an additional horizontal spindle as well.

Just a guess based on the few I've seen and Clausing prices but $1500-2500 seems to be typical for one in good shape with minimal tooling. This one does have a powerfeed, and looks like maybe a vintage vise so the higher end of that range is probably reasonable.

A new Chinese mill this size sells for $3500-5000 so half that for a good vintage USA mill doesn't seem unreasonable to me.


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## 38super

Having a Rockwell mill is a vast step up from a Shop Task.  That said, it still has small mill limitations.  Adding power feed and DRO may be lipstick on a pig, but it's my pig.


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## Aaron_W

As always seems to come up, these are not a Bridgeport, not even close but they are an option if you don't have the room for a Bridgeport. 
Ceiling height is often a concern with mills and both of these will fit into a shop with a 6-1/2 foot ceiling.


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## helmbelly

I bought one just like this about a year ago for 3K. I was almost unused, had lived in a storage room at a vocational school for decades. I flew to Buffalo NY to box it up and ship home to New Orleans ($270). It has VFD but came with no tooling. It is extremely accurate, the whole 16" Y axis runs within a couple thou when I measured the backlash. Cuts steel like butter. I'm fitting DRO next week. paid $273 on ebay for a "ToAuto" asian that looks fine and are sending one 6" and two 16" scales. I'm not an engineer but have spent 5 years cutting aluminum on an old delta drill press with an X/Y table and using this mill is like being freed from a prison chain gang. Did I pay too much? I wanted this mill and had been looking awhile. I passed up many Clausings bc I was told by a guy who had owned both that the Rockwells are firmer.  (I cut steel to make my own tooling but the parts I make are mostly alum, brass, delrin.) 3K is the high end of what these sell for in nice useable shape. This one was cherry, by far the nicest I saw and it had VFD. I jumped on it bc its what I wanted. I'm happy I did. it's a joy to use. Can't wait to get the DRO pinging coordinates. It takes me forever to figure out where in hell I am w/o it.


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## helmbelly

I looked over the new mills like the Grizzly and other chinese made. The Grizzly is a direct copy of the Rockwell. I run a few old american machines (Seneca Falls lathe, old Rockwell DP, Rockwell geared band saw and they are super dependable. the chinese stuff Ive bought are always full of disappointments, small and large. I figure I'm way ahead with 40 year old US made ( 70's really the golden age) stuff bc it costs alot less than new Asian and just bc its also just better. It might not make a better part but it makes a better experience. I have not run a Grizzly so I'm basing this half off my own experience and half what I hear on this forum and Prac Machinist. For myself I needed to use  a mill and did not want a project so I was looking for one in really good shape and found a good one. Its always a trasde off I found other Rockwells for much less but the machines has some question marks, the people were flighty and it was a risk to fly out to buy it. The guy I found was a machinery obsessed engineer with a basement so stuffed with lathes and mills it was like a museum. I needed a vise, he prob had 15 to choose from. Chucks, end mills, collets- it was Wal Mart for fine US made machine tools. I want to go back!


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## Aaron_W

The original posting is gone, lasted less than a week. I'd be curious to know what the actual selling price was.

I saw that there is a Clausing 8520 not far from where this Rockwell was being sold and it is asking $3600. At $2000-2500 they don't last long, often less than 72 hours so the asking prices may be going up. I still think the guy who was asking $6500 was oxygen deprived. 



Helmbelly, glad you are enjoying your Rockwell. It is my impression that the Clausings are more desired, although it could simply be that they are better known. I see several Clausings for each Rockwell that turns up. 
The Rockwell mills have several advantages primarily having about 1" greater travel in all directions, and an R-8 spindle. The main advantage of the Clausing is the ability to swing the head (both can tilt) and in my personal opinion the Clausing is the more attractive looking machine (always complement your dance partner  ).

As far as over paying or not that machine will likely outlive you. Even if you "overpaid" by $1000 in 10 years of use that adds up to a trip to Starbucks once a week and you sound happy with it. I also paid at the higher end of what these bring, but it came from somebody who is meticulous in the care of his tools and also came fairly well tooled. I am quite comfortable that I paid a fair price for it.


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## helmbelly

Did you go for the Clausing or Rock? I originally was after a Clausing - yes they have nice curb appeal, about as pretty as a machine gets. I dont need the swing head - in fact it was a negative as I did not want to tram something I would not use. R8 just makes life easier. But I would have got either brand, both baby bridgeports sorta, could do same work with either. This Rock just had my name on it. Could not agree more about the sticker price washing out. Over the 25-30 years I'll run this thing the money just does not matter. I wanted a good small mill.

Curious what tooling you got. Morbidly curious! I got a 4" Taiwan swivel vise that I like for 100. Ebayed a 3/8 and 1/2 collet, a 7/16 clamp set, and cheap asian drill chuck that has worked a charm. I had a vertex 8" rotary table. Picked up a 2nd indicator to tram the head, Shars parallels, and 123 blocks. That got me cutting metal. I already had end mills and I got a bunch more with the mill. Just picked up a set of angle blocks used Niagra corner rounding mill (1/2") for $20! I dont think it's ever been used. I have DRO, a 7 piece Shars collet set inbound now.  

Today I was out testing surface finishes for an upcoming job. The calculators all say I should be running at 4-6000 rpm for alum (as far as I can tell) but my mill cuts 6061 beautifully at around 1200 rpm with a .5 EM and taking a good .150 cut. Hard to argue with results! I got it up to 2500 and a lot more noise but results no better. Gotta say I love having a mill!


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## helmbelly

I read that the 8520 Clausings came out first and the 8530's came out after 20 years as a redesign. They added some beef to the knee and I think gave it some more travel. That was the Clausing I was after, altho I dont do much heavy work, every extra bit of solid makes everything better. They are all small mills - and I lock off everything I can to keep vibration down. Mine is whisper quiet and super smooth after I got all the old grease out by adding a little oil consistently. I do grease the knee spline, but only oil everywhere else. I think maybe bolting the legs into my concrete pad may improve the overall 'rock steady".


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## Aaron_W

I have an 8520. 
The seller was someone I know who bought a Bridgeport, and I was lucky enough to be looking for a small mill when he was getting ready to sell the Clausing. It came with the factory power feed, a decent older import vise, a set of MT2 collets, drill chuck and a few other misc bits. It is in great shape for being 55 years old. A lot is made about R8 vs MT2 spindles, but I haven't had trouble finding MT2 tooling. The ones with the BS7 spindles might be more trouble to find tooling for. 

I've got some Clausing literature and it looks like the 8530 came out in the late 60s so about 10 years after the 8520. It does have some improvements but appears to have been offered as a higher end machine, rather than a replacement. 
On the 8530 the knee is redesigned and appears to be heavier, it also has a 2 speed hand crank on the right side, fast (I think 4-1) for quickly moving the table in the X axis and slow for precision movements. The 8520 just has a single speed crank. The 8530 came standard with the 4" column riser, which was an option on the 8520. Mine has the riser and it makes a big difference, only 11-5/8 spindle to table without the spacer which I think would be fairly cramped.


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## helmbelly

Good info. yeah thats how I tell them apart the beefed up knee on the 30's. The gent I bought my mill from had an 8520 in his museum basement. I went to it like a magnet. It's a bigger mill than I realized in photos, seems very well built. I still want one. I saw one go on ebay a year ago for 1500 that was in decent shape. There are three 8520 on right now and one 8530, all around 3K. Whats strange is that a year ago none of them were over 2K. They seem to have shot up in price. I think bc the hobbyist market has become more aware of what they are. But just a guess. No Rockwell's for sale on epay right now. They are a harder find. I use MT2 on my lathe tailstock so I agree MT2 is not an issue. How large of shank can you grab? With R8 they make 1" but people say dont put much of a load on them. My largest will be a 7/8 collet altho  dont own anything past 3/4. So what kind of work do you use your Clausing on?


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## helmbelly

With your riser you come out just like a Rockwell at 16" which feels ample for my work envelope so far. What I use often is the fine feed for the quill. On the right I have a drill press style arm but on the left there is a fine feed wheel that is super handy with soft metal. It has about 4" of travel. I bring the table up to within a couple inches and work off the quill from there usually. I was lookin at the Clausings for sale last night and could not see a fine feed- how do you operate the your Z adjustments?


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## kb58

helmbelly said:


> ...I was almost unused, had lived in a storage room at a vocational school for decades...


I've never tried this approach, does it work as a pick-up line?


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## helmbelly

and how! I use it mostly at the clubs with the cuties into saran wrap. mm mmm ;-) 

it doesnt work as well on match.com


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## kb58

Aaron_W said:


> ....As far as over paying or not that machine will likely outlive you. Even if you "overpaid" by $1000 in 10 years of use that adds up to a trip to Starbucks once a week and you sound happy with it...


This reminds me of the time I paid a guy with a $400 Starbucks card and several months later, asked him "don't suppose that you've used that up yet." He had(!)... some people have a very serious Starbucks problem.


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## MrWhoopee

kb58 said:


> This reminds me of the time I paid a guy with a $400 Starbucks card and several months later, asked him "don't suppose that you've used that up yet." He had(!)... some people have a very serious Starbucks problem.



My daughter did the math after realizing she was spending $5/day 5 days a week at Starbucks. She stopped. Now she owns 3 coffee shops.


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## helmbelly

RU serious? she went in to the business?


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## helmbelly

Wait so YOU are sitting on a $400 Charbucks card and use it to pay your bills- and HE has the coffee problem?


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## kb58

Clarification: a copy editor buddy reviewed my car book manuscript and then refused payment. I tricked him into accepting a Starbucks gift card, so he had no idea what it was worth (I paid him $1 a page). He and his wife are big Starbucks "users" and several months after I gave him the card, found out that he'd already run it down to zero. Yes, really. Figure they spend $10 a day easy, and yeah, 40 days later it's gone.

So, back to the thread at hand!


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## helmbelly

hard to top that story. i think it sucked all the air out of this thread. moving on  ;-)


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## helmbelly

Wait! what is this book you speak of?


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## kb58

Only because you asked , Midlana book.


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## Aaron_W

helmbelly said:


> Good info. yeah thats how I tell them apart the beefed up knee on the 30's. The gent I bought my mill from had an 8520 in his museum basement. I went to it like a magnet. It's a bigger mill than I realized in photos, seems very well built. I still want one. I saw one go on ebay a year ago for 1500 that was in decent shape. There are three 8520 on right now and one 8530, all around 3K. Whats strange is that a year ago none of them were over 2K. They seem to have shot up in price. I think bc the hobbyist market has become more aware of what they are. But just a guess. No Rockwell's for sale on epay right now. They are a harder find. I use MT2 on my lathe tailstock so I agree MT2 is not an issue. How large of shank can you grab? With R8 they make 1" but people say dont put much of a load on them. My largest will be a 7/8 collet altho  dont own anything past 3/4. So what kind of work do you use your Clausing on?



The fine feed uses a removable hand wheel, that slips over a stud in front of the course feed lever. The hand wheel interferes with the travel on the lever so you usually see it off when not being used which just leaves a stud showing.





MT2 collets go up to 1/2", but I also have an MT2 adapter that fits my ER collet chucks from my lathe. 

I don't know when production ended for these Rockwell and Clausing mills, but think it is probably safe to assume early 1980s at the latest, and probably some time in the 1970s. Mine was made in the mid 1960s which seems to be very common. Compare that to Bridgeport and clones which have been in production to the present (BPs were also likely made in much larger numbers) and the rising prices are probably just caused by a diminishing supply of machines. I probably see 100+ BP style mills for every small knee mill offered on Craigslist. Clausing, Rockwell and Millrite have a lot more name recognition so command higher prices. Just like cars when a low volume car sells for a high price at auction, and everybody with a rusted out '72 Dodge Dart thinks they are sitting on a gold mine. Same thing when a particularly nice or well tooled example sells at a high price on Ebay, everybody suddenly thinks theirs is worth more than it probably is.

I occasionally see an odd mill of similar size that often sell for much less, older imports and vintage USA. Probably as just as good for a small hobby machine but nobody knows what they are. The shop where I took welding classes had a neat 1980s Taiwanese mill, it looked just like a 1/2 scale Bridgeport so not much bigger than my Clausing, but the brand name Liang Wai isn't going to cause a stampede of buyers. There was a Rotex horizontal / vertical mill recently on CL only asking $700, that is about the same size as these mills. If I didn't already have a mill, I probably would have been satisfied with that one at almost 1/4 the usual asking price.  

My other mill is a Sherline so the 8520 feels like a big mill to me.  


I got into machining to make model parts, so I got a Sherline lathe and mill. They are still the ones I use the most, but my interests grew in size so I started looking for some bigger machines. Still mostly interested in making models but the machines themselves and how to use them also fascinates me. I have a local group of enablers and this site so what started off as a "I just need a mini-lathe and mill" turned into a basement full of cast iron. It seems I do a lot less making of things lately and more making room for things. 
I have a little more work ahead of me arranging things and getting a few of the machines ready to work, but I think I'm almost ready to start making stuff that isn't for one of the machines again. My welder has been getting a lot of work building bases for some of my recent additions.
I started taking welding classes in 2019, and I don't know how I made it all this time without a welder. I'm not that very good at it yet, but I love being able to glue metal together.


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## helmbelly

Quite interesting. I would prefer my fine feed on the right. I was close to a Taiwanese mill, well priced but it was a bit too big. A couple Taiwan makers had great reputations, the names are lost to me already but they are well known. My vise is Taiwan and its excellent. My Vertex RT is as well and it is top rate. I buy  my share of Shars because for simple stuff that is CNC'd on a production line the savings is well worth it. I just got an angle block set for $30, pretty hard to screw up an angle block. 

What you say that rings a bell is the prep time you put in before actually cutting. For me prepping a job has become like an infection, it takes me forever, I overthihnk it, over purchase for it  and generally turn it into storming the beaches at Normandy. But the its two edged sword bc I love every aspect of it all. I do tend to over buy for a job, but with a new mill you really do need angle blocks, parallels, 123 blocks so i think its just front weighted for me right now. The real problem is I forecast all the money I'll make on a part run and have it all spent before I begin. 

I make camera tools and after 30 years packing a camera (movie/tv) I'm good at designing better gizmos for operating a cam but I always think everyone is going to want one of "these"- and maybe they do- but getting the word out is not my strong point so if I do a 25 piece part run it might take a year to sell. Ok maybe 2 ;-) 

Could you reccommend a small useable welding machine to get started with (read cheap) I've been wanting one for awhile. I have a friend who is a good welder that works with cameras now - I'm think I could buy him enough beer to get some pointers. I'd want to get it used on CL or Marketplace but no idea what to look for.


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## MrWhoopee

helmbelly said:


> RU serious? she went in to the business?



Yep, actually both daughters, though it was the oldest who started it.


			https://tiferetcoffeehouse.com/


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## helmbelly

Smart girls! I used to pay .39 cents for a huge coffee at Time Savers gas station/conv stores here in new olreans. When I saw coffee shops popping up I didnt go to them - had no stomach for pay 3X for a much smaller cup. But then everything happened, the internet, NAFTA, iphones. I'm still dazed.


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## Aaron_W

helmbelly said:


> Could you reccommend a small useable welding machine to get started with (read cheap) I've been wanting one for awhile. I have a friend who is a good welder that works with cameras now - I'm think I could buy him enough beer to get some pointers. I'd want to get it used on CL or Marketplace but no idea what to look for.



MIG (wire feed) is pretty easy to learn and what I (and I think most hobby welders) mostly do. TIG is very nice for precision welding, but not easy to get good at. The machines are also more expensive than MIG and stick welding machines.

I don't have any personal experience with cheaper welders, all the welders in my classes were Miller and I dove in head first embracing the buy once, cry once mentality and got a Miller multi-process machine that I can grow into. Honestly for my needs I probably would have been satisfied spending 1/3 the amount for a Hobart 210 MIG welder, but I will learn to TIG weld if it kills me, because I have the machine.  

I was actually taking a TIG class earlier this year when Covid shut everything down. I'm not very good at it, but with a lot of practice I'm sure I will eventually be very happy I went with a machine that lets me do it. TIG is super versatile, you can braze or weld almost any metal with it. Welding the edges of razor blades together is often done by youtube welders to test a TIG machines ability to weld thin materials (and I'm sure to also show off their skills).

Hobart is basically Millers less expensive brand and Lincoln has some budget friendly machines. Some of the newer inexpensive brands are getting good reviews, Everlast, HTP, Primeweld, and even some of the Harbor Freight welders.


There are some members on the forum who actually know what they are doing when it comes to welding. If you want to buy a welder it would be worth starting a thread on that where others can chime in. Just like machining so much depends on what you want to do. You can get a decent 120v only MIG welder for $300-400 but they are kind of like a mini-lathe. Some will love theirs and other will have it on CL in a year to buy something bigger. 
I would avoid the cheap flux core wire feed welders though unless you have no budget (HF has them as cheap as $99). Being able to use shielding gas (usually CO2 or a CO2 / Argon mix) gives a much better weld, but adds to the cost (not only of the welder, but you need a tank and gas).   

Welding Tips and Tricks is an excellent youtube channel for learning to weld.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq70AnPkj4-UApS_m_6mPw


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## ACHiPo

MrWhoopee said:


> Yep, actually both daughters, though it was the oldest who started it.
> 
> 
> https://tiferetcoffeehouse.com/


Very cool Mr Whoopee!  And congratulations on two beautiful, industrious, and successful daughters.


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## ACHiPo

MrWhoopee said:


> Yep, actually both daughters, though it was the oldest who started it.
> 
> 
> https://tiferetcoffeehouse.com/


Duplicate post.


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## helmbelly

Aaron_W said:


> MIG (wire feed) is pretty easy to learn
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq70AnPkj4-UApS_m_6mPw



For me your post is pure gold. This is everything I wondered about - thank you. Ive spun around the googlator checking prices and sobered up quick. A  Miller is like buying a mill. Even the Everlasts are an investment. Prob have to budget 1000 for a minimal set up. I don't know enough to even know what size to look for. What "size" welder is needed to make an angle plate out fo 3/8 steel sheet? Then what I really wonder about is aluminum. I assume thats TIG right? Does alum take more involved skill sets or is it more about investing in a diff machine? I make alum parts and the idea like you say of glueing them together is just wow. I want that.


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## Aaron_W

helmbelly said:


> For me your post is pure gold. This is everything I wondered about - thank you. Ive spun around the googlator checking prices and sobered up quick. A  Miller is like buying a mill. Even the Everlasts are an investment. Prob have to budget 1000 for a minimal set up. I don't know enough to even know what size to look for. What "size" welder is needed to make an angle plate out fo 3/8 steel sheet? Then what I really wonder about is aluminum. I assume thats TIG right? Does alum take more involved skill sets or is it more about investing in a diff machine? I make alum parts and the idea like you say of glueing them together is just wow. I want that.



You can weld aluminum with MIG but it requires a spool gun which puts the wire on the gun, instead of pushing it from the machine. Aluminum is softer than steel so the wire has to be pulled. Even a cheap spool gun costs around $200. I haven't tried MIG welding aluminum, the class I took demonstrated using a spool gun but it was beyond the scope of the class. MIG welding aluminum is more for volume, TIG is a more precise methid but also slower. If you wanted to weld an aluminum trailer MIG with a spool gun would probably be preferred. Welding small aluminum widgets would be a job for TIG.
I did get to weld aluminum in the TIG class before it got cancelled, and it is less forgiving than steel.
Not all TIG machines can weld aluminum, you need a machine than can do AC welding. Many of the cheaper TIG machines only do DC so they can't weld aluminum. TIG also has a lot more options, to a certain degree the more you pay, the more adjustment and range you get.

You can get a decent 120v MIG welder for $400-600 that is good for sheet metal up to about 3/16". You need to go to 240v to get to 3/8" single pass, and are probably looking at $700+ for a 240v MIG. You can build up welds so a machine good for 3/16" could do a 3/8" weld in 2-3 passes for an occasional need, but you are better off going with something bigger to do 1/4"-3/8" often.
Cheap TIG machines start off around $400 for DC only, AC/DC around $800.

As with a lathe or mill it is not hard to talk yourself from a $500 budget into $2000-4000 machine. I took a basic stick / oxy-fuel welding class before I bought a welder so I would be better educated when I spent my money. When I started the class, I was sure I'd just need a basic MIG welder. After I saw TIG in class (it was actually 3 classes held together, so basic, MIG and TIG students are all being taught at the same time) I went from I don't need that to, hmmm that might be useful. When I went down to buy a welder, I was set on either a Miller 211 MIG welder ($1100) or a Miller 215 MIG / DC TIG machine ($1500). I even told my wife as I headed out the door that I was probably going to spend about $1200, $1600-1700 max.
I got to the shop and it turns out the 215 requires an additional $500 "TIG kit" to do TIG (and still only DC TIG), and if bought later it costs more like $700. So Then I'm looking at $1100 or $2000... so I spent $2999 and came home with a Miller 220 MIG / AC/DC TIG machine because that was the only choice that made sense. 


Thankfully I also did well in the wife department so there was no need to hide all the sharp objects.


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