# Let's Talk Way Wipers



## jbolt (Jun 14, 2017)

This is not meant to bash any particular product or method of doing something just some thoughts I have about the subject.

I have seen a number of posts lately where people are replacing the stock rubber way wipers with felt. Many times the retainer is made from plastic or aluminum and not held tight to the way surface.

I recall in one post where someone said they did it because they didn't like the way that the rubber would squeegee the oil off the ways.

On my PM-1440GT it has what I consider very nice rubber wipers. They do an excellent job of exactly what they are supposed to (in my opinion) keep the oil where it is supposed to be (under the sliding surfaces) and keeps debris and grit out.

I prefer to have the exposed way dry(ish) to let particls slide off vs. sticking to the way.


The only lathes I am personally familiar with that have felt wipers are:

   A South Bend that has felt wiper with brass retainers which are tight to the ways and fully encase the felt.

   A Monarch 10ee that has felt wipers and cast iron retainers which are tight to the ways and fully encase the felt.

   And a South Korean lathe made by Hwacheon (sp) that has a hybrid felt and rubber sandwich wiper with a    sheet metal retainer that is also tight to the ways. 

I'm assuming older machines used felt because modern rubbers were not available. Using a retainer that enveloped the felt and is tight to the way keeps most debris out of the felt and better compressed against the way creating a seal.

I'm not aware of any modern machine that uses felt wipers. Are there?

As far as I know all of the machines I listed have hardened ways. Not all hobby size lathes have hardened ways so it seems to me you would not want a wiper that has the potential to collect grit and turn your wiper into an abrasive pad. Even with hardened ways I'm careful to keep the lip of the rubber wiper clean.

I use water based flood coolant on my lathe and a felt wiper seems like a bad idea. Coolant has a way of getting everywhere and I would not want it festering in the felt of a wiper.  I suspect an oil based coolant might be fine however I have no experience with them (that I can remember)

I also cut a lot of hot rolled so having a retainer that was not tight to the way would allow some of that fine scale to get collected in the felt wiper.

I will having a wiper is better than no wiper at all but if I were to use felt I would want it fully enclosed with the retainers tight to the way.

What say you?


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## 4GSR (Jun 14, 2017)

My ultimate way wiper would have a thin brass "scraper" for other words that would push heavy stuff off the ways first.  Followed by a rubber "wiper" to wipe the way surface.  Then last felt to act as a "oiler" or "lubricator" for the ways. 

Unfortunately, none of my lathes have anything that fancy installed.  They all have felt wipers.  What can I say.  Just means I have to do more hand wiping of the ways to remove the crud, should do that anyways.


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## mikey (Jun 14, 2017)

My Emco Super 11 CD (made in the late 1990's) has felt wipers with a metal plate that holds it fairly tight to the hardened ways. The wiper is soaked in oil before installation so it doesn't soak up the way oil much, if at all. It catches chips really well but only at the leading edges and there are no chips that I can see when the carriage is moved back, although I'm sure there are some microscopic chips there. Large chips do not even make it to the felt; it is knocked off by the metal wiper plate. I also have a neoprene apron attached to the front of the saddle to catch the majority of the chips so not much gets to the ways in the first place.

This arrangement seems to work really well and I've come to rely on it. I have spare felt belting to make more when needed but the current set is original and shows no sign of any significant wear; I do look at them during my monthly maintenance checks. 

I don't think I would change to rubber but that's a personal choice.


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## kvt (Jun 14, 2017)

Mine was the fact the the original had turned to hard rocks,   and could not find any that worked properly.   got one from Grizzly but it did not seal the top of the way and allowed stuff in and oil out.   Thus looking at some of the things I found ordered the good felt,   Then what I had was some good plastic,   0.500 thick carved out he back and cut the front where it was just wiping stuff off the ways.   Then cut the felt to compress in side the back pocket that I carved out.   This way it will keep it pressed down on the ways,   For the first time it seals the oil in where it needed to be instead of just running out.       Figure I will have to make some new covers out of Metal at some point.    But this is better than nothing.


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## darkzero (Jun 15, 2017)

I think it all started when I posted my install of Keith Fenner's way kit. Sure I could have made em myself but buying them is just one way I like to support guys like him.

I agree, I don't think using felt is a good idea for lathes equipped & running flood coolant. You would want the rubber wipers to keep coolant out from under the carriage. I doubt you will find any machine that is equipped with a coolant system with felt wipers. Seems like felt is "old technology" & modern machines have changed a great deal. My PM1236 is equipped with a flood coolant system, perhaps not a good one but I will never find out, I don't ever plan on using it in my home garage.

In my case I feel felt works better for me & the materials I machine. I was also the one who said that I did not like how my stock rubber wipers wiped off the way oil. Since they did, I know they work as intended.

An argument is that felt will get "dirty" & will catch fine debris that rubber wipers will usually wipe off. I don't machine machine materials like ductile iron or fiber resins often but when I do I cover my ways, I did so even when I had the rubber wipers which is good practice anyway. Felt is cheap & can be replaced easily. The rubber wipers may last a long time but eventually I think they'll have to be replaced, or maybe not, I don't know. Mine are molded & I'd have to buy replacements which might not be available down the road if I still have this lathe then. I could probably make something similar to work but I won't have to worry about it using felt.

I installed my delrin housing so they are very close to ways & might be actually rubbing on the ways. I believe this is how Keith intended them to be also. This acts like a prewiper much like the brass/metal scrapers. I've seen some recent installs where the same was not done & there was a large gap. I specifically didn't want my felt wipers exposed, I can't even see my felt wipers. My felt is also compressed, cut a bit larger than the housings & I squeeze down on the housing to bolt on.

I also mentioned that I may even install a rubber prewiper inside my delrin housings if I felt a need to. So far I haven't _felt_ a need to. Haven't had the felt long but I did pull them off a couple of weeks ago just to look. Still very clean but time will tell. Felt might not be for everyone but I like them, I doubt I will go back to the rubber.


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## yendor (Jun 15, 2017)

To the original poster.

Your ultimate concept of having 3 piece assembly with both a Felt Oiler and Rubber Wiper held in place by a fixed fully encasing Retainer was part of the Atlas Lathe design since pretty much day one.



This is a snip-it of the Atlas 10F Parts Diagram for the Carriage


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## mksj (Jun 15, 2017)

Recently added felt wipers to my 1340GT lathe, the stock rubber wipes on the carriage do a good job of wiping away chips but do not retain the oil. I opted on the carriage to just add a 1/4" high density felt pads between the wipe and the carriage. The tailstock had no wipers and you could often feel grit getting underneath it. I opted for a Delrin wipe and a retainer system for the felt bad. The Delrin wipe is adjustable for height and set to make contact with the bed rails, the felt is cut slightly oversized behind that. The felt pads retain the oil better, the Delrin should not have any wear affect on the bed. My only concern is grit getting into the felt, so probably will change the annually.  I may switch to a captured felt pad with a Delrin wipe on the carriage when the rubber wipes go. Larger lathes often will have some form of pump oiler system on the carriage.


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## Doubleeboy (Jun 15, 2017)

I love my 1956 Monarch 10ee, marvelous piece of machinery, but it has felt wipers which basically stop chickens and large rocks.  Cut some cast iron and plan on spending a day flushing the carriage.  Conversely my Grizzly branded Taiwanese 5hp 1640 VS has rubber wipers or some rubber like material that stop everything and seem to stand up to cast iron swarf.  Even with covered ways and vacuuming the EE still is filthy inside and out after machining cast iron.  I spent the big bucks and and bought new wipers from Monarch, geez they are just as bad as the decades old ones, what is the point?  I tip my hat to the Asian manufacturers for their use of the black what ever it is stuff they use for wipers, it works great IMO.


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## jbolt (Jun 15, 2017)

mikey said:


> I also have a neoprene apron attached to the front of the saddle to catch the majority of the chips so not much gets to the ways in the first place.


Thanks for bringing that up. I've seen this on a few lathes and is something on my to do list.


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## jbolt (Jun 15, 2017)

kvt said:


> Mine was the fact the the original had turned to hard rocks,   and could not find any that worked properly.



Excellent point. I know on my old lathe the stock rubber wipers would eventually get hard and less effective. Fortunately for that lathe, replacements were available and inexpensive, It is hard to say how long the rubber wipers will last on my current lathe.


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## jbolt (Jun 15, 2017)

mksj said:


> Recently added felt wipers to my 1340GT lathe, the stock rubber wipes on the carriage do a good job of wiping away chips but do not retain the oil.



I'm pretty sure since our lathes are made in the same factory that they use the same rubber wiper. The majority of oil loss is along the long edges of the sliding surfaces.  Without some kind of feed system to the felt I'm curious how much they would contribute to retaining oil. Now that you have first hand experience using felt how much do you think the felt adds to retaining oil? 




mksj said:


> The tailstock had no wipers and you could often feel grit getting underneath it.



Mine is the same way. I mentioned this to Matt at PM. He sent me an extra set of rubber wipers to put on the tailstock. I could make an argument here for felt since there are no oil ports on the tailstock base and it would at least provide some light lubrication. I plan on adding oil ports to the tailstock when I install the rubber wipers. My previous am much inferior lathe to my current one had wipers and oil ports on the tailstock. I wonder how common that is? Another thing on the to do list.




mksj said:


> Delrin should not have any wear affect on the bed.



As long as they are a good fit to minimize the size/amount a debris that could get swept underneath the Delrin should have no effect on the ways. [/QUOTE]


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## jbolt (Jun 15, 2017)

yendor said:


> To the original poster.
> 
> Your ultimate concept of having 3 piece assembly with both a Felt Oiler and Rubber Wiper held in place by a fixed fully encasing Retainer was part of the Atlas Lathe design since pretty much day one.



That's interesting. Why is the rubber wiper inboard of the felt oiler?


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## mksj (Jun 15, 2017)

Felt retains the oil, so I saturate the carriage pads with way oil in addition to the oil ports. I find the rear oiler on the carriage is very resistant to pumping with an oil can, not does it seem to be on the bed rail. The front flows nicely.  I do not see that rubber wipes do anything to retain oil, only clear debris. On the tailstock I am mostly concerned about debris getting underneath, the current system should help mitigate that. Because the tailstock is not held down the the bed, at the beginning of the day and 2-3x during I pump oil under the tailstock so it floats on a film. The felt should also retains some of the oil, and should prevent further contamination of grit under the metal sliding surfaces. At least the felt has some give to it, but I think it is probably a good practice to change the felt at least annually when you do the oil change.

I just installed everything yesterday, but so far seems to work OK.  The tailstock is cleanly an improvement. Time will tell.


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## 4GSR (Jun 15, 2017)

Here's a catalog that contains many different designs of way wipers.  I have used a few of these in years past for different applications.  Some of these are available from McMaster-Carr, which is where I purchased the last strip of material I used.

http://www.cqm-inc.com/uploads/1/5/9/4/15948660/cqm-wipers-2012.pdf

http://www.ustsubaki.com/standard-way-wipers.html


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## Koi (Oct 10, 2021)

Off topic abit .how long would the ways last if i were to pump a generous amount of way oil? Say a squirt every minute.


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## LVLAaron (Mar 14, 2022)

mksj said:


> Felt retains the oil, so I saturate the carriage pads with way oil in addition to the oil ports. I find the rear oiler on the carriage is very resistant to pumping with an oil can, not does it seem to be on the bed rail. The front flows nicely.  I do not see that rubber wipes do anything to retain oil, only clear debris. On the tailstock I am mostly concerned about debris getting underneath, the current system should help mitigate that. Because the tailstock is not held down the the bed, at the beginning of the day and 2-3x during I pump oil under the tailstock so it floats on a film. The felt should also retains some of the oil, and should prevent further contamination of grit under the metal sliding surfaces. At least the felt has some give to it, but I think it is probably a good practice to change the felt at least annually when you do the oil change.
> 
> I just installed everything yesterday, but so far seems to work OK.  The tailstock is cleanly an improvement. Time will tell.



Has time told you anything? I clean my ways obsessively - I do not want any grit or chips under the tailstock.


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## Ultradog MN (Mar 15, 2022)

My lathe will be 80 years old in May of this year.
The ways are worn but still in suprisingly good shape.
I just got done replacing all the felt wipers - carriage, cross slide, taper attachment, and tailstock.
I bought the real wool stuff from Durofelt and cut them myself.
I also made sure the pump in the apron is still pumping oil to all the right places. 
It is inherent to machines that have metal sliding against metal that you will get wear no matter what you do.  I will do what I can to mitigate that  wear but I am not going to obsess about it.
What worked for 80 years will continue to work for me.
By the way, I ran an ad in craigslist wanted section for a leather punch. Older fellow called me and sold it for for $5. Sure was handy for punching those screw holes in the felt.


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## Ken226 (Mar 15, 2022)

I 3d printed a few dozen using rubbery TPU and harder PLA, glued together.  I should have enough in my parts drawer to las a couple hundred years.


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## LVLAaron (Mar 17, 2022)

Ken226 said:


> I 3d printed a few dozen using rubbery TPU and harder PLA, glued together.  I should have enough in my parts drawer to las a couple hundred years.



Sell me a set?


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## Cheeseking (Mar 17, 2022)

Interesting thread
Probably 10 years ago I made a mold to make the real deal wipers for my Colchester out of polyurethane. It’s a messy pita process pouring castable PU in small volumes. I sold 4-5 sets to people who begged me for some but it wasn’t worth my time and hassle for what hobbyists want to pay so I quit that. Recently made a few from silicone and some 3D printed ones but the pla materials most cheap printers use isn’t ideal including the copycat ones all over ebay for $25 
Without much ‘flex’ they are more like scrapers that push the big stuff out of the way but not the harmful grit.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




.


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## Ken226 (Mar 17, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> Sell me a set?



I'll give you a set, since I have a drawer full.  What are the chances that they'll fit your lathe though?

They are for a Birmingham YCL1340gh.  Same lathe  as the grizzly g4016, and a few other brands of import 1340.  I think it has the same carriage and bed as the grizzly G0709 14x40, so will probly fit those as well.


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