# Inflation or price gouging



## woodchucker (Feb 18, 2022)

I'm tired of these price increases. I think all of us are. My wife in a previous life used to analyze companies for a bunch of private investors. She watches the finance programs during the day (or at least listens while doing things)... A few weeks ago I was talking about some items we can't afford anymore because it's ridiculous, and availability. I can't get a new heat exchanger for my pool... 
Anyway she tells me that many companies just reported record profits.. and we are not talking small increases, we are talking mega profits.
So is the inflation real, or are companies gouging us?  I vote for gouging , taking advantage of the American's so that the CEO's can get fatter and richer. I bet most of them retire after getting their big F***** bonuses.

Anyway an example of this nonsense. I want to get a few more shelves, mostly for my son's basement. Back in 2017 I bought these shelves for $28 from Amazon. I liked them because there are a lot of shelves so you can organize stuff. He needs organization.
Well no longer avail. The closest shelving system is $130 + ... the light duty steel shelves are a thing of the past... now it's all $$$$$$ shelving.

I'm ANGRY.. I can't stand these piggy CEO's...  I have no use for people who soak the profits.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  Remember Microsoft got rich/big by offering software at a reasonable price (mostly)... They sold lots of them.  Most today want to get rich by selling as few for as much as possible.  Remember that turd that took over insulin and priced it so people couldn't afford it...


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## Cadillac (Feb 18, 2022)

I agree a lot of it is gouging. But my little go to Mexican restaurant raised their prices accordingly with the outrageous meat prices we all have now. It’s not their fault they still have to make money too. 
  I have another crazy inflation example. I work in the golf industry. The Golf industry did great these last two years. People golfed since it was something outside exercise and unrestricted. 
   Major equipment suppliers are John Deere, toro and Jacobsen. Last year they told us it was gonna get crazy with back orders and if we wanted equipment to order now. We ordered 400k in equipment will get by spring great. So 1piece of equipment cost us 32k last year. Today that same piece of equipment would cost 50k with no changes. That’s f-ing crazy. The reasoning I don’t have a answer. My guess is greed and reworking their supply chains.


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 18, 2022)

I think it’s a combination of both.  Materials and labor costs have significantly increased the last couple years, but I also believe a lot of companies are using the inflation excuse to raise prices more than they normally would be able to.  The record sales numbers being reported is with inflated prices, so part of that increase is the big increase in inflation, people have not increased their purchases that much.  Unless wages catch up quickly, purchases will need to slow down.  One of the financial shows I watch have a saying “the cure for high prices, is high prices.”  

I bought my PM-1236T lathe in November 2020, I think I paid $4,800 for it or there abouts.  It’s listed at $6,800 now.  The drastic increase in shipping from Taiwan is responsible for a large portion of that, and I am sure the machine from the supplier went up a lot too since steel prices are up significantly from two years ago.


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## Beckerkumm (Feb 18, 2022)

I'm in the accounting business and for years I've watched margins tighten as input costs rose but pricing didn't keep up due to competition, including foreign and domestic.  I'm not surprised that companies are taking advantage of the opportunity to expand or return  margins to previous levels while they can.  Miss this opportunity now and try to increase prices when the inevitable recession hits due to the Federal Reserve raising rates and no longer buying all the government paper?  Good luck.  

Always easy to blame others but we have all gotten greedy and we all share some blame.  Dave


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## Aaron_W (Feb 18, 2022)

I recently saw a discussion of this. Big companies are showing record profits since 2020. Increased prices to cover costs would not equal increased profits so clearly some are taking advantage of the current situation. There is little competition among huge corporations anymore. 

This popular illustration shows how few tool companies exist today. The tool market is actually rather competitive compared to some. Only a handful of companies dominate the food and fuel markets.






Smaller businesses are in a tight spot, they have little control over their costs and have to pass on higher costs to remain profitable.


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## FOMOGO (Feb 18, 2022)

We need another Teddy Roosevelt, someone who will break up the big corporations, increase competition and reign in inflation. The problem with that, the majority of congress is bought and paid for by those same corporations. Thanks to that, and SCOTUS declaring that corporations have the same rights as indivduals, I don't see anyway to turn this train around. Mike


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## woodchucker (Feb 18, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> I'm in the accounting business and for years I've watched margins tighten as input costs rose but pricing didn't keep up due to competition, including foreign and domestic.  I'm not surprised that companies are taking advantage of the opportunity to expand or return  margins to previous levels while they can.  Miss this opportunity now and try to increase prices when the inevitable recession hits due to the Federal Reserve raising rates and no longer buying all the government paper?  Good luck.
> 
> Always easy to blame others but we have all gotten greedy and we all share some blame.  Dave


Oh, I disagree Dave, maybe if we lose the CEO's big pay and many of the execs. They have been making way more than the people under them. 50 years ago, it was 1:10 (actual stat)  employee wage to ceo wage.  Now its 1:10000 maybe (I don't have the stat that's out of my Arse)... Most companies have cut quality to make more. They have done it to themselves. When they do that, why pay big bucks for their product when I can buy a offshore piece of junk (same quality) for less.

I think I am very surprised when I find a good product these days... no matter where it comes from. Someone always comes up with an area they can skimp on...


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## Barncat (Feb 18, 2022)

Another example of greed:
The grocery store I frequent is a large chain. Last fall while looking at bags of apples (3lb) there was an employee there with a tablet. He saw me picking up the honey crisp and then looking at the price and then putting them back. He asked if that was too expensive. I replied yes, at $12 a bag, that’s $3 more a bag than a couple weeks ago. He smiled and said it is his job to increase prices and see what people will pay. He said he had them up to $18 a bag last week, but sales suffered, so he took them pack to the point were his data showed them selling the most for a very profitable price. It was his job to increase all fruit and vegetable prices and see where the intersection of high prices and high sales meet. It really disgusted me.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 18, 2022)

Hm...........................all these high profits are killing the stock market this year . I think I'm down 15% for the year . That's $6 I'll probably never see again .


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## Beckerkumm (Feb 18, 2022)

To not get too far down the rabbit hole, I don't disagree that CEO pay is screwed up.  Even Warren Buffett agrees with that.  Different issue from inflation or corporate profits. Those problems would exist if CEO pay was capped.  Other types of corruption would replace it.  See congress, Mexico, etc for how people work around income limits.

As to the quality issue, I again blame us for consumer greed as much as I blame those producing the inferior goods.  What % of us buying metalworking machines asks about bearing quality, oil distribution design, type or grade of cast iron, motor quality, on and on.  Do we require documentation for runout, turning precision, machining accuracy? We accept a million brands of basically the same machine design, 12x36, 14x40, etc and then read marketing literature to decide among the mediocre, often settling on price.  How many of us would accept a 5K or 10 K increase or educate ourselves to understand if it was appropriate?  ( Or just buy used and rebuild ? )

We can only change our own behavior.  Dave


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## mmcmdl (Feb 18, 2022)

@woodchucker . We are at $4.00 a gallon down here for diesel fuel these days . Pa. is typically .50 cents above Md . This is crazy . I do believe there is gouging going on with everything these days also . I just have to wonder where all these unfilled jobs are they talk about every day .


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## woodchucker (Feb 18, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Hm...........................all these high profits are killing the stock market this year . I think I'm down 15% for the year . That's $6 I'll probably never see again .


The stock market is what helped kill this country.  When only the rich and corps were in it pre 1968 or so... Companies had long term goals. When 401k's and people started investing themselves in mass, the goals changed, we went from long term to short term profits... get your money and get out....  The stock market does not represent what companies are doing  or should do.

Do you remember the Miliken age.  If a company was doing well , profiting, their stock dropped like a brick... if a company was hurting the stock soared... They were killing companies to sell of the pieces.  Again .... the stock market not being good for America.
.


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## jwmay (Feb 18, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> I just have to wonder where all these unfilled jobs are they talk about every day .


I've been in automotive for 10 years. A guesstimate on how many people we are, and have been short would be 400. That's between 4 plants, but those are all jobs within 40 minutes of me.  It's a revolving door if new hires and freshly fed up quitters. Nobody wants 60 hours a week anymore, so they quit. This seems to force us (those who didn't quit) to keep on with the ridiculous workload.  Young people stay with Mommy and don't really need much money for that. 
Oh...inflation. Hmm. Is it possible that the price of goods reflect what people will pay?  Gouging or otherwise, it won't come down until we stop buying it.  Wages are also up.  I'm making significantly more this year than ever before. I did have to find a new job. But, all in all, I'm planning to make more this year than inflation will eat. So, it's all a matter of perspective I guess. 
I don't understand blaming CEO's either. They just took the job. It was somebody else that decided what they'd be paid... or at least I think so. Lol. Some company offered me a million dollar bonus, you can bet your butt I'm onboard. It doesn't make me a bad guy.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 18, 2022)

I have 4 very large and VERY heavy boxes headed 370 miles south tomorrow . My plan was to take the truck down , spend the night in a cheap hotel and return the next day . 3 tanks of diesel at $120 a fill up . I can't do it although I wish I could . The shipping will cost me maybe $130 or so . These flat rate boxes go up in price daily , kinda like the stock market . Whatever , we the working man pays to play .


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## Beckerkumm (Feb 18, 2022)

Years ago I was attending the Berkshire Hathaway annual meeting when Buffett and his partner, Charlie Munger, were asked their opinion on CEO pay.  Buffett talked at length ( as usual) about how compensation committees on a Board were similar to lap dogs for management.  Charlie's response to Warren was " You are being demeaning to lap dogs".  Dave


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## woodchucker (Feb 18, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> I have 4 very large and VERY heavy boxes headed 370 miles south tomorrow . My plan was to take the truck down , spend the night in a cheap hotel and return the next day . 3 tanks of diesel at $120 a fill up . I can't do it although I wish I could . The shipping will cost me maybe $130 or so . These flat rate boxes go up in price daily , kinda like the stock market . Whatever , we the working man pays to play .


Remember back in the 1990s and before, diesel was always less than gas... Diesel has a long shelf life compared to gas.   Why then is diesel so much more than gas?  Is it because they can charge more?  I still don't know why the prices flipped on which was more $$$$.  A friend who is retired now worked for Exxon in research. According to him, diesel should be a lot less than gas.   So what happened?  Was is corporate greed that said diesel is mostly paid for by companies, so we can make up the price on it, because it will just get passed down?


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## mmcmdl (Feb 18, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Remember back in the 1990s and before, diesel was always less than gas... Diesel has a long shelf life compared to gas. Why then is diesel so much more than gas?


Well that's an easy one . It's because I bought a diesel truck !


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## Aaron_W (Feb 18, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Remember back in the 1990s and before, diesel was always less than gas... Diesel has a long shelf life compared to gas.   Why then is diesel so much more than gas?  Is it because they can charge more?  I still don't know why the prices flipped on which was more $$$$.  A friend who is retired now worked for Exxon in research. According to him, diesel should be a lot less than gas.   So what happened?  Was is corporate greed that said diesel is mostly paid for by companies, so we can make up the price on it, because it will just get passed down?



I think diesel demand has increased significantly since the 1980s.

Diesel didn't surpass gas engines in big rigs until the 1970s. Diesel pickups were not really a thing until the 80s, diesel cars did start to show up in the late 70s but with the exception of Mercedes Benz most diesel cars were not very popular (and I'm pretty sure sales of diesel MBs were much smaller than gas powered).
Ford and GM introduced diesel pickups in 1983, Dodge introduced a diesel pickup in 1989. These were work trucks, soccer mom's wanted nothing to do with these slow, noisy, soot blasting beasts.
VW turbo diesel cars had a brief spurt of popularity in the 2000s before emissions regulations caught up to them.

These days you never see a non-diesel big rig and diesel pickups have become trendy, with many people buying them for status, not because they actually use them for doing truck things.

Many states also have a higher tax on diesel than on gasoline, and my understanding is that heating oil production competes with diesel fuel production which can raise the price of diesel in the winter time.

Fuel refining is vary advanced these days with refineries being very capable of breaking down less desired petroleum products to their base molecular structure and reformulating them into more valuable products. A lot of historically cheap petroleum products like naphtha and kerosene have seen price increases because what were once basically waste products are now made to meet the demand for them, any excess can be used as fuel stocks for other products.


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 18, 2022)

My sister sells lumber wholesale. Recently prices were through the roof, then suddenly dropped like a rock. I asked her what happened, she said people stopped buying.

I would like to express my appreciation to all of you for an informed, reasoned, courteous and thoughtful discussion. You guys are the BEST!


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## woodchucker (Feb 18, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> My sister sells lumber wholesale. Recently prices were through the roof, then suddenly dropped like a rock. I asked her what happened, she said people stopped buying.
> 
> I would like to express my appreciation to all of you for an informed, reasoned, courteous and thoughtful discussion. You guys are the BEST!


I wish the prices dropped. Out here in Hunterdon county NJ it's still way up. Poplar was $5 a bd ft at one of my mills. I use it for the carcass of case work. I have some gorgeous hardwoods, but won't waste them on utility stuff. At $5 it's more expensive than hardwoods were before the shortage. So we are not close to normal yet.  But what's normal ??? Is normal the new high? Will it come back down?


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## RJSakowski (Feb 18, 2022)

One behavior that I have noticed over the years is that when the dost of goods goes up the retail price goes up in proportion (or moire) rather than just raising the retail price  by the amount of codt of goods increase.  Another is that it is very easy to increase the price on some item due to a temporary increase in cost of goods but the price seldom goes back down when the cost of goods drops again.

Somehow, we have gotten into the mindset that in order to get competent people, we have to pay outrageous salaries.  Corporate boards are certainly in that mindset.  They want the corporation to grow beyond their wildest dreams so only the best people will do and in order to get the best, you have to pay the highest salaries.  The trouble id that they usually don't get the biggest bang for the buck.  I have seen too many of those corporate wiz kids flop.  It's not just the corporations.  The same thing is happening on professional sports and in the entertainment industries.  For that matter, look at collegiate sports.

While CEO salaries are for the most part outrageous, it isn't the whole picture  A 10 million$ salary for the CEO of a company with 10 billion$ revenue won't create the kind of inflation we are seeing..


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## silence dogood (Feb 18, 2022)

I can get around the high prices by using scrap metal and wood on my projects. But insulin is another matter. If it was not for the VA, I'd be paying several hundred a month. One reason that insulin is so high is that basically three companies that make it. So, it is a monopoly. My wife had a cousin that died because he was not able to afford the insulin.


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## ahazi (Feb 19, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> I think diesel demand has increased significantly since the 1980s.
> 
> Diesel didn't surpass gas engines in big rigs until the 1970s. Diesel pickups were not really a thing until the 80s, diesel cars did start to show up in the late 70s but with the exception of Mercedes Benz most diesel cars were not very popular (and I'm pretty sure sales of diesel MBs were much smaller than gas powered).
> Ford and GM introduced diesel pickups in 1983, Dodge introduced a diesel pickup in 1989. These were work trucks, soccer mom's wanted nothing to do with these slow, noisy, soot blasting beasts.
> ...


The energy content of diesel is higher than gasoline so the oil companies can *justify* charging more. 

Some details:


			https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf
		


Diesel fuel produces 128,488 Btu/gal while gasoline produces 112,114 – 116,090 Btu/gal

It takes 30 percent *less diesel* for a compression engine to travel the same distance as a gasoline spark-fired engine because of the higher efficiency of the diesel engine.

Ariel


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## Bi11Hudson (Feb 19, 2022)

LATE POST | I wrote this around noon but it didn't get posted. Late as usual, that's me.
+    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +
It's all of the above and then some. I realize that political discussions are forbidden. But what it comes down to is political. The proverbial "helicopter money" has to come from somewhere. So we pay the price for it. I can't go any deeper without breaking the law about politics.

I follow the following web sites among others:
Steve Quayle
Mike Adams
George Ure
Don't much agree with everything, but they have good insights into what is going on. I list below a CR & LF so the list can be removed if it's too touchey politically.

.


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## davidpbest (Feb 19, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> The stock market is what helped kill this country.  When only the rich and corps were in it pre 1968 or so... Companies had long term goals. When 401k's and people started investing themselves in mass, the goals changed, we went from long term to short term profits... get your money and get out....  The stock market does not represent what companies are doing  or should do.
> 
> Do you remember the Miliken age.  If a company was doing well , profiting, their stock dropped like a brick... if a company was hurting the stock soared... They were killing companies to sell of the pieces.  Again .... the stock market not being good for America.
> .


My portfolio is up 12% YTD as of closing 2/18, so I don’t think your comments are universal.  There are plenty of great companies that make excellent returns in an unstable economy like we have at present.  Consumers are still buying toilet paper, and sofas for their LR.   But if you aren’t savvy enough or interested enough to be selective in equities, then an index with a 5 year horizon is likely to be rewarding.  By far, the last 3 years, my best plays have been in residential real estate.


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## addertooth (Feb 19, 2022)

Some basic points:

Diesel went up, because the government asked the refineries to prioritize gasoline over diesel production a few years back.  A barrel of crude oil can be fractionalized to make a variety of products.  If you optimize for one, you get a reduction in other products produced from that barrel. Right now, most voters are more concerned about the price of Gasoline, the additional cost of diesel is "hidden" for your typical suburban voter.  Certainly, truckers and farmers are strongly impacted (and aware) of the cost of diesel, but they are only a small portion of the voter pool. For any elected official, raw numbers of voters is the name of the game.

Inflation on goods is certainly visible.  Every now and then I ask myself "how much would this cost me to make".  I have a small machine shop, along with welding equipment.  The answer is typically "I cannot buy the raw materials, and justify the time to make it, for the cost I could buy the part for".  How much would you charge to make a new alternator for your vehicle?  How about a brass fitting for high pressure pneumatics, or even a part, like a new impeller for your vacuum cleaner. I considered making a new welding cart, but after pricing all the parts (sheet metal, chain, wheels, axles, etc), I realized I could buy one cheaper than I could make one (I don't have a metal scrap yard nearby).

The economy of mass production still makes it hard for a smaller business to start up, and survive. There will always be a market for custom or bespoke items, but it will always be a small market.

We will certainly see people complain about the high prices, but we won't see the common man put in an apple orchard, even though the price of apples has gone up on the store.  We won't see people in large numbers start sewing up a new pair of blue jeans.

Let's just face it, big businesses know the public is not going to start making "their own stuff" in any real numbers.  The only thing that will slow them down is when the public stops buying.  Once interest rates go up, we will see the tide start to shift a bit.  Or, at least we will see it on higher priced items, which normally require a loan to purchase.


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## woodchucker (Feb 19, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> My portfolio is up 12% YTD as of closing 2/18, so I don’t think your comments are universal.  There are plenty of great companies that make excellent returns in an unstable economy like we have at present.  Consumers are still buying toilet paper, and sofas for their LR.   But if you aren’t savvy enough or interested enough to be selective in equities, then an index with a 5 year horizon is likely to be rewarding.  By far, the last 3 years, my best plays have been in residential real estate.


What part of my comments were about how your or anyone else's stocks did? 

I had nothing to say about owning a portfolio. Only that the stock market is not good for most companies. While it is supposed to raise money for them, it affects their planning. Instead of planning long term goals, most shareholders are interested in how the price is today, not tomorrow. So the goals change from long term to short term. That may be good for the stock, but it's not good for a company. 

Some companies align well with the stock price. Some companies have nothing to do with the stock price...


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## Janderso (Feb 19, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> I recently saw a discussion of this. Big companies are showing record profits since 2020. Increased prices to cover costs would not equal increased profits so clearly some are taking advantage of the current situation. There is little competition among huge corporations anymore.
> 
> This popular illustration shows how few tool companies exist today. The tool market is actually rather competitive compared to some. Only a handful of companies dominate the food and fuel markets.
> 
> ...


I think I’ll stick with Makita.
The government inflation figures for 2021 was 7% I believe.
This seems low to me.
The printing and infusion of trillions of dollars makes our cash worth significantly less. IMHO


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## Janderso (Feb 19, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> What part of my comments were about how your or anyone else's stocks did?
> 
> I had nothing to say about owning a portfolio. Only that the stock market is not good for most companies. While it is supposed to raise money for them, it affects their planning. Instead of planning long term goals, most shareholders are interested in how the price is today, not tomorrow. So the goals change from long term to short term. That may be good for the stock, but it's not good for a company.
> 
> Some companies align well with the stock price. Some companies have nothing to do with the stock price...


Where will the real estate bubble top out?
We’ve been looking for a replacement home for over a year now. The last three years has realized double digit increases year over year.
Our investments in securities did well the past three years as well. About half of our money is in less than moderate risk categories since we are retired.


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## 7milesup (Feb 19, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> I just have to wonder where all these unfilled jobs are they talk about every day


They are everywhere.  And the argument that people are staying home because the government is sending out their economic recovery checks is no longer valid.
Andersen Windows is a large window manufacturer based not too far away from me.  I drove by one of their smaller plants a few weeks ago and there was a huge hiring banner on the outside of the building.  Starting wage was $26/hr with yearly bonuses of $56K.  That is over $100k to go put windows together.   Nearly every business around here has a sign out looking for employees.  The current unemployment rate is 2.8% in WI.  I always figured that at least 5% of the population was unemployable.


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## 7milesup (Feb 19, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Well that's an easy one . It's because I bought a diesel truck !


I literally just sold my diesel and bought a Hemi.


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## Navy Chief (Feb 19, 2022)

7milesup said:


> They are everywhere. And the argument that people are staying home because the government is sending out their economic recovery checks is no longer valid.
> Andersen Windows is a large window manufacturer based not too far away from me. I drove by one of their smaller plants a few weeks ago and there was a huge hiring banner on the outside of the building. Starting wage was $26/hr with yearly bonuses of $56K. That is over $100k to go put windows together. Nearly every business around here has a sign out looking for employees. The current unemployment rate is 2.8% in WI. I always figured that at least 5% of the population was unemployable.


I know manufacturing jobs in my area are tough to keep filled, where my son works they get new employees that stay long enough to renew their unemployment then leave again. Good paying job for the area $19 an hour starting pay with benefits and time and a half on weekends. There are now hiring banners on almost every warehouse and manufacturing plant in the area that have been hanging there for years, nobody wants an actual job. 

A lot of the younger people don't seem to have an interest in having a job, they have an interest in having the government support them while they play video games and watch "reality" television shows. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Beckerkumm (Feb 19, 2022)

Generally the labor participation rate is down which is a more relevant number than unemployment.  What isn't discussed often is the fact that due to the shortage, workers that might be let go for a variety of reasons, productivity, attitude, etc, remain employed.  Good employees are rewarded well in this market and not so good are still employed.  Dave


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## jwmay (Feb 19, 2022)

7milesup said:


> I drove by one of their smaller plants a few weeks ago and there was a huge hiring banner on the outside of the building.


Completely agree. The two companies I've worked for have had banners hanging for years. They are literally always short handed, and have been since about 2014. Been traveling a little for work recently. There are 4-8 highway advertising signs offering between 18 and 30 dollar per hour direct hire opportunities in that 35 mile stretch of road.


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## woodchucker (Feb 19, 2022)

7milesup said:


> They are everywhere.  And the argument that people are staying home because the government is sending out their economic recovery checks is no longer valid.
> Andersen Windows is a large window manufacturer based not too far away from me.  I drove by one of their smaller plants a few weeks ago and there was a huge hiring banner on the outside of the building.  Starting wage was $26/hr with yearly bonuses of $56K.  That is over $100k to go put windows together.   Nearly every business around here has a sign out looking for employees.  The current unemployment rate is 2.8% in WI.  I always figured that at least 5% of the population was unemployable.


I retired. I was an Oracle Database Administrator. I was being offered less than 1/2 of what I was making. Some as little as 1/4.. I haven't made that little since the 70s.  Some jobs are offering great money. Others are taking advantage of the situation. I was let go July 7th 2020, when I was let go, my wife looked up the company and the federal money to keep people. They had just received the 1.5 million dollars. They took the money and ran. We were a medical imaging software / hardware company. We were not suffering from the pandemic. We were suffering from bad management. 

 In my field many companies were trying to take advantage of the situation by lowering wages. I decided to retire... why deal with the 24x7 on call, the stress, the really horrible management. I didn't want to retire. I expected to work into my late 70s. I liked what I did, just not the people. Many of the young had no work ethic. Our top level managers were a bunch of back stabbing climbers, and some of their decision making was to make the other manager look bad... so much for being a company person. I could go on, but I am enjoying retirement.  Years ago I worked with a super group of people. We were very successful, until management wanted in. we went from about 30 people to over 200 in short time. We went from successful to over bloated do nothing. All these managers came on brought their people in, and well, they killed the project. We were now losing money, instead of making money.


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## 7milesup (Feb 19, 2022)

Navy Chief said:


> nobody wants an actual job.
> 
> A lot of the younger people don't seem to have an interest in having a job, they have an interest in having the government support them while they play video games and watch "reality" television shows.


I'm sorry but that is complete BS.  That type of logic is what I call "bar logic"; guys sitting around at a bar making up "facts".
I work part time for a manufacturing company (I'm in R&D).  We have some really great young folks on the floor that have been there for quite some time.  This belief that people are better off sitting at home because "the government pays more" is not based on actual facts and reality.  I could say that the states that get the most government aid are red, but I won't.


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## jwmay (Feb 19, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> In my field many companies were trying to take advantage of the situation by lowering wages.


To be frank, the jobs I'm talking about are all "unskilled" jobs. No degree, no education. I couldn't speak to skilled labor jobs at all. In manufacturing, you can usually get into skilled labor positions with nothing more than longevity. So, these are "great" opportunities for young people. But we really can't keep them. I don't know why. My own kids flatly refused to even consider factory work. (Not even for a summer job!)  That's two kids who can thank manufacturing for literally every thing they have! With a Dad who has been preaching the gospel of Mike Rowe their entire lives. So...idk.


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## jwmay (Feb 19, 2022)

7milesup said:


> This belief that people are better off sitting at home because "the government pays more" is not based on actual facts and reality.


There's "some" truth to it. We could make a smidge more on unemployment during the height of the pandemic. But it was a very short window of opportunity. And catching up on your healthcare coverage upon return would probably negate that difference. I can't say for sure. I didn't get any time off. Lol This is just stories from coworkers who did take time off.  Don't think I'm disagreeing with you. Just saying, there's a little truth in every fiction.


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## addertooth (Feb 19, 2022)

The above points of view are all viable, for the geography they are at.   We have had some local fast food locations close for a few days, because nobody wanted to show up.  So yes, on the lower end of the pay scale, there is a serious problem with apathy among the (mostly young) workers.  

My wife works at the lower end of medical.  When the vaccine mandates came out, she started to look at all the listings for "help wanted desperately" which were non-medical. There were a lot of medical workers who fled the market when the deadline for the mandates were approaching.  She learned that a lot of the job listings were phantom or "prospecting" listings.  The employers were not as motivated to hire as they *sounded* in their listings.  In some cases they were listed as 9 to 5 jobs, but after you applied you learn they were for graveyard shift.  Most were shy to mention rate of pay until after the interview.  

I work in technology.   When I go on websites for jobs, the companies give a laundry list of Degrees, Certifications, and verifiable job experience that only a handful of people on the globe would match.  Many of those listings are for that 1 in a million employee.  They may be hoping he comes across their listing.   The more typical "center of mass" tech employee will not be likely to get a call back.  I also realize some companies are actually hoping nobody responds, so they can get the government to give them a H1 visa to hire a foreign worker.  Then they will accept a far less qualified foreign worker, at about 1/3rd the US worker cost.  It is how they play the game to obtain that visa (you create a bloated listing with a laundry list of requirements, then whine to the government you can't find any qualified American applicants).  

In short, across the spectrum there are a LOT of companies which say they are hiring, and desperate for workers.  But it is not exactly as it appears.  In the 1970s, a person could go out and find a job in a single day.  I am not talking about fast food.  The industries have changed, and 1 day hires are now the exception, rather than the rule.


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## woodchucker (Feb 19, 2022)

addertooth said:


> I work in technology.   When I go on websites for jobs, the companies give a laundry list of Degrees, Certifications, and verifiable job experience that only a handful of people on the globe would match.  Many of those listings are for that 1 in a million employee.  They may be hoping he comes across their listing.   The more typical "center of mass" tech employee will not be likely to get a call back.  I also realize some companies are actually hoping nobody responds, so they can get the government to give them a H1 visa to hire a foreign worker.  Then they will accept a far less qualified foreign worker, at about 1/3rd the US worker cost.  It is how they play the game to obtain that visa (you create a bloated listing with a laundry list of requirements, then whine to the government you can't find any qualified American applicants).


I lived it for years. In this area, that game is the rule not the exception. The Oracle DBA positions are managed now by Indian's in many cases. Some are very good/smart, gifted. But even like in this country, 10% carry the weight..  

Just for education So let me say I am not talking ALWAYS, I am talking that this happens.:  The problem with Indian management, is they mostly want to hire other Indians. We learned that the cast system is dead in Elementary schoolj in the early 60s. But that is far from the truth. It still exists today.  I have watched while other people did the work for one Indian, I asked and found out he was a higher cast member, so the lower cast members were doing his work.. I was shocked.


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## addertooth (Feb 19, 2022)

jwmay said:


> To be frank, the jobs I'm talking about are all "unskilled" jobs. No degree, no education. I couldn't speak to skilled labor jobs at all. In manufacturing, you can usually get into skilled labor positions with nothing more than longevity. So, these are "great" opportunities for young people. But we really can't keep them. I don't know why. My own kids flatly refused to even consider factory work. (Not even for a summer job!)  That's two kids who can thank manufacturing for literally every thing they have! With a Dad who has been preaching the gospel of Mike Rowe their entire lives. So...idk.


There is a secondary mechanism at play here.  Many companies have added automation every year, which allows them to employ workers who could not have previously (acceptably) performed the job.  It requires less SKILL to perform the job, thanks to automation. 

Let me give an example: McDonalds Restaurants.
In the early 70s, they guy at the grill had to know when to flip the burgers and sear them.  He had to monitor how "done" the burgers were, to compensate for the grill cooling down, when a large number of frozen patties were placed on it.    Now, they have the automated "clamshell grill" which cooks both sides of the burgers at once.  He only needs to load the frozen patties on, sprinkle on some salt and paper, and hit the start button.  The upper clamshell closes and both sides of the burger cooks at once.  It opens when the burgers are done, and he removes them from the clamshell cooker.  He only needs to know how to load, season, and unload it.  He requires less skill. 

Similar story for the fry station.  The new fry station only requires he load the basket and hit start.  It automatically lowers the basket and then lifts it when the fries are done.  

The point of sale systems are fully a breeze to use, and calculates/makes change for the person at the register; plus there are fewer cash transactions these days, with many people using a card.  They have added ordering Kiosks to many of their restaurants, with the customer doing the work. 

These are ONLY examples.  But, this use of automation has spread across most industries.   It allows for less capable people to be hired, who in turn, merit less pay (and the company has to recoup the additional cost of automation).   So YES, this has driven down (or prevented growth over time) of the wages.


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## Navy Chief (Feb 19, 2022)

7milesup said:


> I'm sorry but that is complete BS. That type of logic is what I call "bar logic"; guys sitting around at a bar making up "facts".
> I work part time for a manufacturing company (I'm in R&D). We have some really great young folks on the floor that have been there for quite some time. This belief that people are better off sitting at home because "the government pays more" is not based on actual facts and reality. I could say that the states that get the most government aid are red, but I won't.


Happy  to hear there are young folks in your area willing to work, I know they are out there. What I posted is based on what my son and my wife hear at work all the time. People come and go all the time where they are and the conversation is almost always the same "why work when I can get unemployment".

When I was a hiring manager in the IT industry I lost track of the number of interviews I conducted with fresh college graduates that expected to be hired directly into management, they had zero interest in entry level positions. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## woodchucker (Feb 19, 2022)

Navy Chief said:


> Happy  to hear there are young folks in your area willing to work, I know they are out there. What I posted is based on what my son and my wife hear at work all the time. People come and go all the time where they are and the conversation is almost always the same "why work when I can get unemployment".
> 
> When I was a hiring manager in the IT industry I lost track of the number of interviews I conducted with fresh college graduates that expected to be hired directly into management, they had zero interest in entry level positions.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


I had the same experience. None of them realize that learning on the job is critical. When they get out of school they really know nothing.  All they know is the BS that school taught them, not real life, not business, not real programming if a programmer/engineer. You can't believe how many think they know it all and make the mistakes that we all learned long ago not to make.  Yet they think they are ready to manage everything. 
I was in management, hated it. I hated dealing with people who thought they deserved so much more for doing so little. Or the people that never met their deadlines , spent so much time socializing while at work, and thought you were wrong when reviewing them. Or the one or two that threatened you because in their minds you were wrong and they were right. I remember one person telling me how much they worked late at night on projects. Yet I could tell they spent no time logged in after hours. I know that they had to log in to do their work.. they argued they did it all offline, yet that was not possible.  I resigned from management and went back to what I was good at; being a techie. So many slackers think they do more than they do.  This goes for business analysts, project managers, you name it. no one is immune. You get to know the real players.  I worked with a great team, in the middle of the night we were grinding the oil, 4 -5 in the morn we would see each other on Instant messaging programs. You knew who was carrying a team.


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## jwmay (Feb 19, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> This goes for business analysts, project managers, you name it. no one is immune. You get to know the real players. I worked with a great team, in the middle of the night we were grinding the oil, 4 -5 in the morn we would see each other on Instant messaging programs. You knew who was carrying a team.


Pareto's Principle still stands. Although it seems we (Me included) wandered off track some time ago. Lol. This thread was about inflation, right? Ha!


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## Aaron_W (Feb 19, 2022)

I think Covid showed a lot of people that the old both parents working thing isn't required, particularly when the job given up is at the lower end and the income barely exceeded the costs of child care. People realize that they are paying other people to raise their kids and in many cases child care simply isn't there anymore or at least has gone up in price meaning even if they wanted to work, it becomes a losing situation where they make less than the cost of child care. Many workers also discovered that retirement wasn't actually all that bad, and people who planned to work for another 5 or 10 years chose not to return to the work force when things reopened.

Unemployment isn't stupid. It is hard to qualify if you quit your job or get fired. There are a few situations where that is acceptable, but will usually result in a denied claim. It is also based on what you made 18 months ago, so the idea that people are taking jobs and working for 2 months then quitting to "reset" their unemployment is fantasy. If you sat on unemployment for 2 years, worked for 2 months and legitimately lost your new job, your unemployment will be based on the salary you were drawing 18 months ago ($0) which is going to net you the minimum amount which in California is $40 a week.



addertooth said:


> The above points of view are all viable, for the geography they are at.   We have had some local fast food locations close for a few days, because nobody wanted to show up.  So yes, on the lower end of the pay scale, there is a serious problem with apathy among the (mostly young) workers.
> 
> My wife works at the lower end of medical.  When the vaccine mandates came out, she started to look at all the listings for "help wanted desperately" which were non-medical. There were a lot of medical workers who fled the market when the deadline for the mandates were approaching.  She learned that a lot of the job listings were phantom or "prospecting" listings.  The employers were not as motivated to hire as they *sounded* in their listings.  In some cases they were listed as 9 to 5 jobs, but after you applied you learn they were for graveyard shift.  Most were shy to mention rate of pay until after the interview.
> 
> ...



So some of these employers are this guy


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## RJSakowski (Feb 19, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> I think Covid showed a lot of people that the old both parents working thing isn't required, particularly when the job given up is at the lower end and the income barely exceeded the costs of child care. People realize that they are paying other people to raise their kids and in many cases child care simply isn't there anymore or at least has gone up in price meaning even if they wanted to work, it becomes a losing situation where they make less than the cost of child care. Many workers also discovered that retirement wasn't actually all that bad, and people who planned to work for another 5 or 10 years chose not to return to the work force when things reopened.
> 
> Unemployment isn't stupid. It is hard to qualify if you quit your job or get fired. There are a few situations where that is acceptable, but will usually result in a denied claim. It is also based on what you made 18 months ago, so the idea that people are taking jobs and working for 2 months then quitting to "reset" their unemployment is fantasy. If you sat on unemployment for 2 years, worked for 2 months and legitimately lost your new job, your unemployment will be based on the salary you were drawing 18 months ago ($0) which is going to net you the minimum amount which in California is $40 a week.
> 
> ...


This should have been posted in the Today' Joke thread.  Everything this seller offers is either $1K or $10K.
From the same seller:


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## woodchucker (Feb 19, 2022)

jwmay said:


> Pareto's Principle still stands. Although it seems we (Me included) wandered off track some time ago. Lol. This thread was about inflation, right? Ha!


show me one thread that stays on track for more than a few posts.


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## Navy Chief (Feb 19, 2022)

Getting back on track. Yes, there is absolutely some price gouging going on, companies are making all kinds of excuses about the reasons that prices are going up. 

Quick example, there is supposedly a shortage of OSB that is driving the consumer price up. Did a project the other day and needed 2 sheets of 7/16 OSB. The manufacturing date on both of them was May 2021, so according to the retailers there is a "shortage" but at the same time the material they are selling has been sitting around for 9 months...

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Eddyde (Feb 19, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> We are at $4.00 a gallon down here for diesel fuel these days . Pa. is typically .50 cents above Md . This is crazy .


I paid $3.60 a gallon two weeks ago. I paid $4.18 a gallon, two days ago... Crazy Indeed!


woodchucker said:


> The stock market is what helped kill this country.


Jeff, I think you hit the nail on the head. It once was a way to help a company grow, become competitive, turn a profit and make some money for the investors. Now the stock market is simply a way to make money from nothing. Companies that once focused on making a better product for their customer are now only beholden to the board of directors and shareholders. The quality of the product is only as good as it needs to be and the workforce is squeezed as much a possible. Maximum profit is all that matters.


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 19, 2022)

Navy Chief said:


> Getting back on track. Yes, there is absolutely some price gouging going on, companies are making all kinds of excuses about the reasons that prices are going up.
> 
> Quick example, there is supposedly a shortage of OSB that is driving the consumer price up. Did a project the other day and needed 2 sheets of 7/16 OSB. The manufacturing date on both of them was May 2021, so according to the retailers there is a "shortage" but at the same time the material they are selling has been sitting around for 9 months...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Check out the videos of Uneducated Economist on YouTube, he works in that industry and has been talking about what has been going on for a while.  He was saying last year when there was a shortage that the mills were stacked full of finished products waiting to be shipped.


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## woodchucker (Feb 19, 2022)

I watched a guy in VT showing a rail yard miles long with lumber piled up, while they were claiming a shotage.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## RJSakowski (Feb 19, 2022)

OK, which is it; inflation or price gouging?  I was going over my medical billing for December.  $3,500 billed.... for three office visits, an eye exam, a blood draw, and a biopsy of a mole. Fortunately, I am on Medicare and have a good supplemental insurance so nothing out of pocket for me but how about that poor schmuck that can't afford insurance?


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## Barncat (Feb 19, 2022)

A part of the supply chain shortages leading to supply/demand inflation comes from all the truckers that have been kicked off the roads since the clearinghouse went into effect in 2020. In about a years time after that law started, over 70,000 truckers were fired for drug or alcohol violations. Of course we don’t want any impaired drivers on the road, but the drug tests that get you fired for having some residual in your system from days or weeks ago is silly.
On the topic of lumber, a buddy that works at a mill said during the height of the lumber craze, they were still selling 2x4s to the big box stores at about a buck a piece. After he told me that I checked menards website, it said they had a few thousand in stock and they were selling them for about $7 each. It’s mostly corporate greed/gouging in my opinion.


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## jwmay (Feb 19, 2022)

RJSakowski said:


> but how about that poor schmuck that can't afford insurance?


I know one family, and this is a fact, who did not sign up for employer sponsored healthcare because they have some sort of coverage through the state, due to low/no income. Another person I know got $55k charged off when it was discovered he didn't have insurance.  A third without insurance (the youngest) made arrangements for payments after he received his $55k+ bill, and moved out of the country. This kid had a sprained ankle and was transported by helicopter to a different hospital under the insistence of the staff. He should have sued. Since I've written 55k twice, I expect I must have got a figure wrong somewhere. But they were both multi ten thousand dollar numbers. I really do wonder about insurance. Take the kids for a physical. You don't have insurance, is a flat fifty bucks. If you have insurance, it's a couple hundred. Something is screwy about that. 


Barncat said:


> it said they had a few thousand in stock and they were selling them for about $7 each. It’s mostly corporate greed/gouging


But if people are willing to buy it, is it still gouging? If it were gas, I could see calling it gouging. We all have to have gas. But lumber? That's discretionary I think. If the builder prices it in, and the client agrees, it's just business. The client has the ability to say no. They can buy an already built house. They can rent. If I ask $10,090 dollars for a box of nails, and somebody buys it, that doesn't make ME the bad guy. The buyer bought. I didn't force him. He didn't have to have it. Food would be a thing where gouging could occur. But how about meat? It's more expensive now, right?  How many people are eating three times more of it than their body requires? Pretty much every American, is the answer.  Buying three times less meat would solve that gouge in a hurry. But who is doing that? Nobody. They're still buying a hundred pounds of meat a month and complaining it costs too much.  Buy less. It'll also help with the love handles. More money. Better health. Less chances of gout. Lol. All I'm saying is, I don't hear anybody complaining about the cost of broccoli...


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## Navy Chief (Feb 19, 2022)

jwmay said:


> I know one family, and this is a fact, who did not sign up for employer sponsored healthcare because they have some sort of coverage through the state, due to low/no income. Another person I know got $55k charged off when it was discovered he didn't have insurance. A third without insurance (the youngest) made arrangements for payments after he received his $55k+ bill, and moved out of the country. This kid had a sprained ankle and was transported by helicopter to a different hospital under the insistence of the staff. He should have sued. Since I've written 55k twice, I expect I must have got a figure wrong somewhere. But they were both multi ten thousand dollar numbers. I really do wonder about insurance. Take the kids for a physical. You don't have insurance, is a flat fifty bucks. If you have insurance, it's a couple hundred. Something is screwy about that.
> 
> But if people are willing to buy it, is it still gouging? If it were gas, I could see calling it gouging. We all have to have gas. But lumber? That's discretionary I think. If the builder prices it in, and the client agrees, it's just business. The client has the ability to say no. They can buy an already built house. They can rent. If I ask $10,090 dollars for a box of nails, and somebody buys it, that doesn't make ME the bad guy. The buyer bought. I didn't force him. He didn't have to have it. Food would be a thing where gouging could occur. But how about meat? It's more expensive now, right? How many people are eating three times more of it than their body requires? Pretty much every American, is the answer. Buying three times less meat would solve that gouge in a hurry. But who is doing that? Nobody. They're still buying a hundred pounds of meat a month and complaining it costs too much. Buy less. It'll also help with the love handles. More money. Better health. Less chances of gout. Lol. All I'm saying is, I don't hear anybody complaining about the cost of broccoli...


It is not just lumber they are gouging on, it is everything in the store. Already own a home and need plumbing or electrical parts to keep systems working? Too bad, you're paying the higher price they decided they can charge. Need shingles to repair your roof after the Storm? Pony up for the higher prices ..

The same thing is going on at the grocery stores, they are determining what the absolute highest price people are able to pay so they can feed their families. 

Corporations saw covid as an opportunity to declare "shortages" of everything and raise prices to compensate for the shortage they invented. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## woodchucker (Feb 19, 2022)

@jwmay That does not sound legit. It definetly pays to have insurance. I would hate to have any bill without.  Yes there are many institutions playing games by sending you to a dr or group that is not in your plan. Its something the insurance companies like (they're) off the hook, and the hospitals like (they get more money)  But if you don't have insurance... you are screwed.

@Navy Chief  Some shortages are real. I could not get a Square D 30amp double pole ckt breaker in 2020... I waited 6 months (if I remember correctly)... the company was either closed, or on a limited staffing. There are real shortages.. There are many fake (manufactured) shortages. But NOT ALL are greed.  Some are real... But it's getting hard to tell who is telling the truth. I can order something on ebay from china and it comes in 2-3 weeks.  So it's hard to validate the shortages from china, or from the USA.


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## rabler (Feb 19, 2022)

Price gouging is a form of greed.  Inflation is what happens when greed gets to be commonplace.  So, both.


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