# Awesome New Mill- Is it worth it?



## JetMech

Hi guys, 

Another post in the stream of noobs asking "which machine?"  I have an introduction post here if you wnat to know more about my situation.

In this case, I have a pretty narrow question:

I have an opportunity to buy a mill, very similar to a G0704, for example.  My plan is to use it for small hobby work, primarily in aluminum.


Issue is, I have a tough choice:  

I can get the variable speed model, with speeds from 40-3000 RPM, or I can get the non-variable version, with 6 speeds from 115 to 1700 RPM.

If it was a matter of a small premium, then it's a no-brainer and you get the variable speed!

However, there is a catch-

I can get a discount on the 6-speed.  A big, big discount.  Think 2/3 price.

So, my question is, if I'm working aluminum with small bits, am I goin to miss the higher speed capapbility?

Is 115 to 1700 rpm sufficient range for a mill?

What price-premium would you put on the variable speed and wider range?

What capability, if any, do I lose from choosing the much cheaper 6 speed?

Any thoughts appreciated.


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## higgite

Doesn't matter what price-premium anybody else would put on it. You can obviously afford either one or we wouldn't be having this conversation. IMHO, get whichever one you want or you will regret it later.

Tom


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## Bob Korves

Don't know how much torque it would deliver, but I like the lower speed even more than the higher speed.


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## Randall Marx

Not only do you loose the higher range in speeds, but also the lower range. The lower speeds is what I would miss, but I often need to put somewhat large holes in steel without burning up my twist drills. Using small bits in aluminum, you might miss the high end of the range more. Look at the speed-feed charts for the materials you want to cut and the size of cutters you plan to use, then consider how close you can come to the desired surface speed with the ranges you might have. Another option would be to get the 6-speed model and add a VFD and 3-phase motor to gain a much larger speed range than the variable speed model. Depending upon the price difference, the upgrade may or may not make sense.


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## Reeltor

I don't know how to advise you but my mill has speeds from 50 to 1,400.  There were times when I would have liked to go even slower than 50 rpm but I don't recall ever regretting not being able to go faster than 1,400 rpm


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## JetMech

higgite said:


> Doesn't matter what price-premium anybody else would put on it. You can obviously afford either one or we wouldn't be having this conversation. IMHO, get whichever one you want or you will regret it later.
> 
> Tom



Good advice, thanks.


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## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> Don't know how much torque it would deliver, but I like the lower speed even more than the higher speed.



Cool, one vote for low speeds being desirable- very good, this is the kind of info that helps!


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## JetMech

Randall Marx said:


> Not only do you loose the higher range in speeds, but also the lower range. The lower speeds is what I would miss, but I often need to put somewhat large holes in steel without burning up my twist drills. Using small bits in aluminum, you might miss the high end of the range more. Look at the speed-feed charts for the materials you want to cut and the size of cutters you plan to use, then consider how close you can come to the desired surface speed with the ranges you might have. Another option would be to get the 6-speed model and add a VFD and 3-phase motor to gain a much larger speed range than the variable speed model. Depending upon the price difference, the upgrade may or may not make sense.



Awesome, another vote for low speeds and a wonderful explanation and recommendation besides.  I appreciate the idea to look up feeds/speeds of anticipated cuts, will do so.  Some definite info about what I should expect would come of that.  Thank you, Sir.


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## Eddyde

If you are going to be milling aluminum with smaller tools, I recommend you get the variable speed as you will want the higher rpm.
This hobby always costs more...


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## mikey

The way to look at speed is to consider the material and cutter size and then look at the recommended cutting speeds for that material. For example, aluminum is rather soft and requires pretty high cutting speeds. A 1/4" finishing end mill taking a shallow profiling cut of 0.02" deep would have a cutting speed of 800 sfm. This translates to a speed of about 12,000 rpm. 

To make this useful, remember that you calculate the rpm required by finding the listed cutting speed of the material and using this formula: RPM = SFM X 3.82 / D, where SFM is the recommended cutting speed for the material in sfm and D = diameter of the cutter. You can look up cutting speed charts on the net. 

You will need lower speeds when cutting hard materials with larger diameter cutters. If you plan to do smaller work primarily in aluminum then lower speeds is not as important as the higher speed range. This is especially true if you ever use carbide tooling that requires higher speeds to cut well. 

Personally, I would go for the variable speed with the higher range.


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## T Bredehoft

I agree with Eddyde, above, I do a lot with aluminum, I miss being able to tap below 200 rpm, I can and do mill above 2200, 1/8 four flute, feeding at 8 inches a minute. I lube with rubbing alcohol, it lubes the flutes and leaves no residue.


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## brino

What a great discussion and variety of opinions!
I am glad the question was asked.

Thanks all!
-brino


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## JetMech

Reeltor said:


> I don't know how to advise you but my mill has speeds from 50 to 1,400.  There were times when I would have liked to go even slower than 50 rpm but I don't recall ever regretting not being able to go faster than 1,400 rpm



Well, it's clear that the low end is important and is more important than high end. 

I appreciate the responses, all of you. 

Since I posted this, I talked with our machinist at work, and he basically said the same and described feeds and speeds of various types of work.  He made it sound like it would not be a particular challenge to work within the 6 speeds offered.  This doesn't replace me looking it up and learning feeds/speeds myself, however. . .  And he operates a full-size knee mill, so imay need to take his advice with a grain of salt.

What occurs to me now, though, is that the real answer may be to buy the non-variable mill and convert it, thus, for the same or possibly less money, having the same or possibly better variable speed setup.


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## JetMech

Eddyde said:


> If you are going to be milling aluminum with smaller tools, I recommend you get the variable speed as you will want the higher rpm.
> This hobby always costs more...




Right, I'm seeing the high end is important also- it's clear there is a good case for the variable speed.  I agree with those who recommend the variable speed and wider range, that is clearly preferable.

My issue now is that I can get the regular mill much, much cheaper and maybe should just convert that myself.  But do I want the project?


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## JetMech

mikey said:


> The way to look at speed is to consider the material and cutter size and then look at the recommended cutting speeds for that material. For example, aluminum is rather soft and requires pretty high cutting speeds. A 1/4" finishing end mill taking a shallow profiling cut of 0.02" deep would have a cutting speed of 800 sfm. This translates to a speed of about 12,000 rpm.
> 
> To make this useful, remember that you calculate the rpm required by finding the listed cutting speed of the material and using this formula: RPM = SFM X 3.82 / D, where SFM is the recommended cutting speed for the material in sfm and D = diameter of the cutter. You can look up cutting speed charts on the net.
> 
> You will need lower speeds when cutting hard materials with larger diameter cutters. If you plan to do smaller work primarily in aluminum then lower speeds is not as important as the higher speed range. This is especially true if you ever use carbide tooling that requires higher speeds to cut well.
> 
> Personally, I would go for the variable speed with the higher range.




What an awesomely insightful post, thank you.

I admit I hoped you'd made a mistake with your math- 12,000 rpm is well outside the range of either the normal or variable speed mill, which tops out at 3000 rpm!

I checked an online calculator and indeed, to get 800 sfm out of 1/4 diameter you'd need that rpm.  So what now?  Use larger mills for finishing?  Feed slower?

This continues to push me towards getting the regular mill and doing my own conversion, so I could perhaps get more speed out of it.  But then, I have to ask- how can I determine how fast I can run the gearbox?  How would one determine a safe rpm limit for such a thing?  Even if I had the motor and drive for it, could the gearbox take 12,000 rpm?   

Questions, Questions. . .


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## JetMech

T Bredehoft said:


> I agree with Eddyde, above, I do a lot with aluminum, I miss being able to tap below 200 rpm, I can and do mill above 2200, 1/8 four flute, feeding at 8 inches a minute. I lube with rubbing alcohol, it lubes the flutes and leaves no residue.




Cool, thanks for the input.   It's clear that even if I can't get 12,000 rpm, it would still be much better to have even 3,000 at my disposal.  

Good tip with the rubbing alcohol, will be sure to try that.  Hear what you're saying on the tapping thing.


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## JetMech

brino said:


> What a great discussion and variety of opinions!
> I am glad the question was asked.
> 
> Thanks all!
> -brino



These guys are amazing!  I'm in the final stages of settling my deal with the vendor, and when it goes down I'll be sure to post details.

I'm leaning towards getting the cheaper mill and doing my own conversion.  Talks with the vendor have indicated that the variable speed model is merely the same model of mill exactly, just with the motor swapped for what I'd guess is DC with a controller, but I suppose could be AC with a VFD, but I doubt it.


I can get the non-variable mill for around $500 less, and normally the difference between the two is $150.  

So, that implies that the parts to convert cost the vendor about $150 or so.  With a $500 discount, I could probably upgrade it myself with possibly a better motor and drive, and get better results.  I've done that sort of conversion before.

Ahh, decisions, decisions.


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## brino

JetMech said:


> the variable speed model is merely the same model of mill exactly, just with the motor swapped for what I'd guess is DC with a controller



That's probably true.



JetMech said:


> With a $500 discount, I could probably upgrade it myself with possibly a better motor and drive, and get better results. I've done that sort of conversion before.



If you haven't see the conversions done using DC treadmill motors, dig around here for some.
I bet you could find a suitable treadmill for the price of hauling it away in your local Craig's List ads.
Though you may need to replace the controller.

Please do share what ever way you go!
-brino


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## JetMech

I have done a few treadmill conversions, it works great.  For this size motor and my desired results, I'd probably buy the components but the cool thing is that i have some experience with it now from my treadmills and know what to get.

Right now I'm researching whether a 3 phase motor and VFD might be the better choice.  You could find success either way I'd bet.

I expect if my mill purchase goes through, I will check out the motor, observe the ratings, and then shop from there, to see if DC/Controller or AC/VFD is the way to go.


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## Bob Korves

Variable speed over a wide range is a wonderful thing, but the dirty little secret is that a wide RPM range by itself is not always so useful.  There also needs to be substantial torque at the lower speeds, and indeed good torque across the entire range of speeds, and there needs to be adequate motor cooling, and the motor, spindle, and all the drive components need to not fly apart or otherwise fail at higher speeds.  A lot of amateur and plenty of commercial variable speed setups do not pass all those tests, and some suffer from mechanical and/or electronic problems and failures.  Make sure to do your homework.  Find a bunch of favorable reviews of any system you are contemplating going with, especially long term.  Reviews given the day of first motor run are not all that useful...


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## mudnducs

As Eddy said...small parts...in aluminum mean small sharp tools.   You'll want the fastest speed you can get.


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## mikey

JetMech, cutting metal is not just about the speeds. It is also about feeds and depths of cut, and they are intimately related to each other. For any given material, there is an ideal set of cutting conditions (feed, speed and depth of cut are known as your cutting conditions) and how well the cut proceeds depends on how close you get to this ideal. The finer your control over your cutting conditions, the easier it is to dial in a cut. Being able to do this on the fly is not a small thing. 

The benefit of variable speed is not just the range; its the instant and near infinite control you have over that speed - on the fly. Let's say you've set your depth of cut and your mill has variable power feed. You estimate the speed you need and start the cut. As it cuts, you will see/hear/feel how the cut is going and, over time, you will learn to adjust the speed of your spindle and power feed to obtain the best results for the depth of cut you set. 

The ability to control speed and feed rates on the fly is most beneficial on the lathe, where you can literally dial in a cut. On the mill, it is almost as useful. 

Most mills that come with variable speed will have a useful torque range in the speeds the maker lists. At lower speeds, the mill may not be as powerful but you can compensate for this with a smaller depth of cut and slower feed. But you cannot make up for the lack of speed at the top end and that is where you will spend most of your time if you really do stick to smaller cutters in softer materials. The top speed you have is what you have; you learn to cut at that speed and adjust your depth of cut and feed to compensate to the degree possible.

Cutting metal is a complicated business, I think. Cutting conditions matter but there are many other variables we haven't even touched on here that have an impact on which mill you choose. In general, it is wise to buy the biggest, heaviest mill that will fit your budget and space and when possible, get variable speeds and feeds. Look hard at how robust the spindle and bearing support is because this has a big impact on accuracy. And if at all possible, get a knee mill.


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## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> Variable speed over a wide range is a wonderful thing, but the dirty little secret is that a wide RPM range by itself is not always so useful.  There also needs to be substantial torque at the lower speeds, and indeed good torque across the entire range of speeds, and there needs to be adequate motor cooling, and the motor, spindle, and all the drive components need to not fly apart or otherwise fail at higher speeds.  A lot of amateur and plenty of commercial variable speed setups do not pass all those tests, and some suffer from mechanical and/or electronic problems and failures.  Make sure to do your homework.  Find a bunch of favorable reviews of any system you are contemplating going with, especially long term.  Reviews given the day of first motor run are not all that useful...



Having trouble making the multi-quote work right on this forum . . .

All good advice, certainly.  The plan formulating in my mind now is to buy the discount mill and later upgrade it with better stuff than what they put on the factory conversion.

I have a really, really nice Pacific Scientific motor that came out of a high-dollar gym treadmill, it's a beast.  My plan was to mate that with a high-quality DC drive such as a KB pwm type drive.  Those run around 150 for a cased model, closer to a bill for just the board and I can add the swtiches, potentiometer, and enclosure.

That would get me variable speed with conceivably a better controller, more replaceable certainly, and only the cost of the controller in it.  If I don't like it, I can always put the original AC motor back on . . .

Basically, I'd rather have a larger mill that struggles on the tiniest stuff than a little mill that's got high RPM but essentially no ability to work anything of reasonable size.  If it's really that small I can hand finish it.

Also, from the figures above and looking at calculators, I can get the SFM I need on aluminum at 3000 rpms by using a 1" end mill, which is doable.  So if I want a nice finish on the edge of some 1/4" aluminum plate, that's my process.  On small interior cutouts, I'll either need to find more speed, live with the finish, or hand-finish it, Clickspring-style.  Well, I'll never be him, but I can use a file and sandpaper!



mudnducs said:


> As Eddy said...small parts...in aluminum mean small sharp tools.   You'll want the fastest speed you can get.



I am totally getting that, from all the great advice here!

Like I said above, I can get most of the "good finish" I'm going to need with workarounds, but my real plan is to get the mill, make some measurements and observations of it's power and speeds.  (For example, if the motor is a 1750 RPM job, then I'll need to hook the motor I have up to a controller and see what it really runs at RPM wise, and see if it is a suitable alternative.  If not, I'll find one that does.

In the mean time, I will try to figure out what the highest practical speed for that gearbox is.  I mean, I can replicate the specs from the factory version, but I bet if the gearbox can take more speed, I could find a power train that offers more top end, since apparently I'll need it.

As Bob rightly states above, I'll need to resaerch carefully to make sure I can get useable torque at all speeds while covering my range.

The truth is, from what I've seen those KB motor controllers do while messing with them, that low-end torque is very unlikely to be a problem for a DC motor witha good controller.  I am awaree that some considerations need be made, for example, an auxiliary cooling fan must be employed when running these slowly under load, because the internal fan isn't moving enough air at that slow speed.

Now, if I could get the sales guys to respond to me. . .  This is just my opinion, but when an email conversation leads to the customer saying "ok I'll take it, please send me the details for payment. . ."   I would make that email a priority, instead of suddenly ceasing to respond once I'm ready to buy.  I've heard good things about this company, but thier sales service is pretty lacking.  Never answer the phone their either, and I guess I'd say that would hurt business, except that they are basically always out of 2 of 3 types of machine they sell.

I guess, if you always sell all your pieces and don't need more money, then you can afford to be lackadaisical when it comes to sales.  Personally I'd be ordering twice as many machines and answering all sales emails promptly, especially the ones that say "Ready to buy!"  What do I know, though?


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## Alan H.

No response to emails and phone are strong signals! What happens when you need customer service after the purchase?


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## tq60

Not familiar with the machines in question but we have some input.

We have what once wss the variable speed bp that the po converted to vfd.

He installed a 1 hp motor with a single fixed ratio pulley and it works great as speed is set by a pot.

Flip switch and is slows down then reverses.

Issue is torque in the bottom end rather lack of it.

To use our she'll mill we need to use back gear and crank up motor rpm.

If your mill does not have back gear then look at how the speed is chsnged.

If the variable speed is a set of variable size pulleys then you will have good torque at bottom end.

If it is just motor speed control then not so much.

If variable pulleys you can add a vfd to get higher and lower speed than design and may be best option as you can increase motor speed to over speed the spindle for the aluminum if the bearings can handle it.

At the other extreme you can go below bottom rpm for tapping.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## JetMech

mikey said:


> JetMech, cutting metal is not just about the speeds. It is also about feeds and depths of cut, and they are intimately related to each other. For any given material, there is an ideal set of cutting conditions (feed, speed and depth of cut are known as your cutting conditions) and how well the cut proceeds depends on how close you get to this ideal. The finer your control over your cutting conditions, the easier it is to dial in a cut. Being able to do this on the fly is not a small thing.
> 
> The benefit of variable speed is not just the range; its the instant and near infinite control you have over that speed - on the fly. Let's say you've set your depth of cut and your mill has variable power feed. You estimate the speed you need and start the cut. As it cuts, you will see/hear/feel how the cut is going and, over time, you will learn to adjust the speed of your spindle and power feed to obtain the best results for the depth of cut you set.
> 
> The ability to control speed and feed rates on the fly is most beneficial on the lathe, where you can literally dial in a cut. On the mill, it is almost as useful.
> 
> Most mills that come with variable speed will have a useful torque range in the speeds the maker lists. At lower speeds, the mill may not be as powerful but you can compensate for this with a smaller depth of cut and slower feed. But you cannot make up for the lack of speed at the top end and that is where you will spend most of your time if you really do stick to smaller cutters in softer materials. The top speed you have is what you have; you learn to cut at that speed and adjust your depth of cut and feed to compensate to the degree possible.
> 
> Cutting metal is a complicated business, I think. Cutting conditions matter but there are many other variables we haven't even touched on here that have an impact on which mill you choose. In general, it is wise to buy the biggest, heaviest mill that will fit your budget and space and when possible, get variable speeds and feeds. Look hard at how robust the spindle and bearing support is because this has a big impact on accuracy. And if at all possible, get a knee mill.




Wow, what a great, comprehensive answer.

I may have left people with the impression that I have not used a mill before, or a lathe.  If so, it's entirely my fault.  I've used a few at work and I have the general idea about feeds and speeds, I'm actually a professional mechanic by trade so I've done a little metal work.

I'm completely convinced I need the speed if not the infinite variablity, and I"m convinced the infinfite variability is pretty high on the list of "nice to have."  So I appreciate you guys pointing me the right way.

I've ultimately decided if I can get the "discount" mill, I will, and do the variable conversion myself.  Then I can Tim Taylor it and put on whatever amount of torque I want. . .

Your last paragraph echoes my thoughts on the matter exactly.  I agree a knee mill is the way to go.  For my part, it's a space limitation and even more relevant is the weight.  I came to the same conclusion while lathe shopping as well-  I don't want to buy more machine than I can move by myself, which pretty much limits me to "benchtop" level stuff.

Even so, I'd have to disassemble this mill to move it wihtout an engine crane, which I don't have and don't wish to store.  Same with the PM1030V I will eventually buy to replace my HF craptastic lathe.

The mill in question here, a PM727M, is still over 400 lbs as it is.  I think it's a good compromise between usefulness and size, it's much, much heavier than a "mini mill" although bridgeport owners will never give it any credit.  For the 3d printer parts, RC stuff, and general slot-and-groove making I plan to do, this mill should have the power and weight to spare, and will be a nice addition even if it isn't the mill I die with.

Maybe when I convince my wife to let me move to a house that allows the shop of my dreams, then I can have the space to load up on "old 'arn" mills and lathes.


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## JetMech

Alan H said:


> No response to emails and phone are strong signals! What happens when you need customer service after the purchase?



Indeed.  However, this outfit has a good reputation, and while people praise the sevice they get, every review mentions that you get response within a "reasonable time" meaning it could be quicker.

The vendor is Precision Matthews.  The reason that it's taking more attention and wrangling is I'm trying to buy a "return" off of them at a discount.  Service after the sale isn't really an issue, as there is no warranty if I buy this mill.  I don't look for much service after the sale on Chinese tools anyway, and if something breaks, I typically repalce it with better stuff.

I'm going to email them again right now, and turn up the pressure, and I will also email their "regular" sales people.  But hey, if they don't want to take my money, I'll take it somewhere else, many people make version of this mill.

To tell you the truth, I can't figure outhow they run that business at all, given that they are nearly always out of everything they sell, just look on their site!  I kind of think that this is some side-biz and they run it super-understaffed to save money.

However, PM consistently gets better reviews for QC and for being the "best" version of these import machines, plus, the white and blue is so cool!

But then, Grizz Green will be acceptable too, if they won't "shut up and take my money!"


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## JetMech

tq60 said:


> Not familiar with the machines in question but we have some input.
> 
> We have what once wss the variable speed bp that the po converted to vfd.
> 
> He installed a 1 hp motor with a single fixed ratio pulley and it works great as speed is set by a pot.
> 
> Flip switch and is slows down then reverses.
> 
> Issue is torque in the bottom end rather lack of it.
> 
> To use our she'll mill we need to use back gear and crank up motor rpm.
> 
> If your mill does not have back gear then look at how the speed is chsnged.
> 
> If the variable speed is a set of variable size pulleys then you will have good torque at bottom end.
> 
> If it is just motor speed control then not so much.
> 
> If variable pulleys you can add a vfd to get higher and lower speed than design and may be best option as you can increase motor speed to over speed the spindle for the aluminum if the bearings can handle it.
> 
> At the other extreme you can go below bottom rpm for tapping.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk



The machine in question is a PM727M benchtop mill.

It has a geared head, with 3 speeds and high/low gear for a total of 6 speeds.  The stated range is 115 to 1700 rpm.  The upcoming (this week) PM727V variable speed model is the exact same mill with a DC motor and speed control, and advertises 40-3000 rpm, which would come from a combo of gearing and motor control.

I believe that with the proper DC motor, and controller, I can use the gearbox and the speed to get torque I need.  Since it's a gearbox, the practical limit to speed is probably the bearings, can't see what else would be affected except noise level.

I basically need the mill in hand to really check it out, see what it can torque its way through, then research and purchase the proper motor and control to really make it rip.  If I do it right I might be able to prodeuce a mill with more torque than it needs and more range than PM can offer.

Here's to hoping.

Now, if they'd just sell me that mill. . .


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## Bob Korves

JetMech said:


> Indeed.  However, this outfit has a good reputation, and while people praise the sevice they get, every review mentions that you get response within a "reasonable time" meaning it could be quicker.
> 
> The vendor is Precision Matthews.  The reason that it's taking more attention and wrangling is I'm trying to buy a "return" off of them at a discount.  Service after the sale isn't really an issue, as there is no warranty if I buy this mill.  I don't look for much service after the sale on Chinese tools anyway, and if something breaks, I typically repalce it with better stuff.
> 
> I'm going to email them again right now, and turn up the pressure, and I will also email their "regular" sales people.  But hey, if they don't want to take my money, I'll take it somewhere else, many people make version of this mill.
> 
> To tell you the truth, I can't figure outhow they run that business at all, given that they are nearly always out of everything they sell, just look on their site!  I kind of think that this is some side-biz and they run it super-understaffed to save money.
> 
> However, PM consistently gets better reviews for QC and for being the "best" version of these import machines, plus, the white and blue is so cool!
> 
> But then, Grizz Green will be acceptable too, if they won't "shut up and take my money!"


Matt, owner of Precision Matthews, is a member and often poster here on H-M.  He seems to be mostly a one man show at PM, perhaps with some helpers.  A lot of people on this site have PM equipment.  I suspect you will get a response from Matt soon, either here, privately, or both.  Matt has a very good reputation on this site from the posts I have seen.  Disclaimer:  I do not know Matt, and have never inquired PM or done any business with them.  From what I have seen on H-M, Matt seems like a straight shooter...


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## mksj

Everything is at a price point, but I would not buy a mill just because it is a special deal but you will quickly grow out of it. If you want a mill to just play around with occasionally that is fine, but do not expect a 2 speed variable speed mill with 1Hp to be boring large holes with it.

You also need to think beyond the speeds and what you are going to be putting on the table, i.e. travel/size. If you look at most purposely built variable speed mills and lathes, in many cases they are 2 or sometimes have 3 speed ranges, the motors are usually oversized to compensate for torque/Hp drop fall off across the operating range. If you are going to do just high speed work, then the PM727 variable speed would be a good choice, if you want/need low speed capability then you I would recommend looking into something like the PM-30MV, which has a 2Hp motor and a slightly bigger working envelope. The PM-930MV runs off of 220V, so you need to factor if that is available, but the difference in performance will be significant at a small increase in cost (about $250 over the PM-927M). Personally I feel 6 speeds is somewhat limiting getting the sweet spot for different materials, and you are limited by both the low and high speed range. Getting a fixed gear mill and adding variable speed will not be cost effective, you are limited by the Hp of the motor. Gear heads are also very noisy and there are other high speed limitations, most variable speed "conversions" entail a two speed belt drive and removing the gear drive.


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## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> Matt, owner of Precision Matthews, is a member and often poster here on H-M.  He seems to be mostly a one man show at PM, perhaps with some helpers.  A lot of people on this site have PM equipment.  I suspect you will get a response from Matt soon, either here, privately, or both.  Matt has a very good reputation on this site from the posts I have seen.  Disclaimer:  I do not know Matt, and have never inquired PM or done any business with them.  From what I have seen on H-M, Matt seems like a straight shooter...



Yes, his presence on forums and the great rep he has here are large factors in my decision to go with them.

I bet you're right about the one man show with helpers, does seem that way.

I've emailed him, Jeff, and the sales email explaining my desire to buy the mill.  I suspect I will hear back soon, I can undestand how busy a sole proprietor must be!

In fact, I DO want to work with him, because I'd rather support him than Grizz.

I agree Matt seems like straight shooter, that's why I'm willing to buy a "return" that he says will work.  Hopefully I hear from him soon!


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## Silverbullet

I vote variable speed, if you ever want to power tap you want as slow as possible. Even using a fly cutter on aluminum you wouldn't run real fast . Tiny drills and endmills yes . Just my thoughts.


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## JetMech

mksj said:


> Everything is at a price point, but I would not buy a mill just because it is a special deal but you will quickly grow out of it. If you want a mill to just play around with occasionally that is fine, but do not expect a 2 speed variable speed mill with 1Hp to be boring large holes with it.
> 
> You also need to think beyond the speeds and what you are going to be putting on the table, i.e. travel/size. If you look at most purposely built variable speed mills and lathes, in many cases they are 2 or sometimes have 3 speed ranges, the motors are usually oversized to compensate for torque/Hp drop fall off across the operating range. If you are going to do just high speed work, then the PM727 variable speed would be a good choice, if you want/need low speed capability then you I would recommend looking into something like the PM-30MV, which has a 2Hp motor and a slightly bigger working envelope. The PM-930MV runs off of 220V, so you need to factor if that is available, but the difference in performance will be significant at a small increase in cost (about $250 over the PM-927M). Personally I feel 6 speeds is somewhat limiting getting the sweet spot for different materials, and you are limited by both the low and high speed range. Getting a fixed gear mill and adding variable speed will not be cost effective, you are limited by the Hp of the motor. Gear heads are also very noisy and there are other high speed limitations, most variable speed "conversions" entail a two speed belt drive and removing the gear drive.




This is a great reply with some clearly sage advice.  I appreciate your input, and I agree with it although I have some limitations that make it so that I do have to make some compromises.

For one, your description of "you want a mill to just play around with occasionally that is fine" is exactly right, that is exactly my usage case.  I'm no pro, just dick around with stuff in my garage.  This is a toy for me.  I do not expect to bore large holes.  (a HUGE hole to me is 2")

We've been discussing the torque issue, my plan is to convert the mill myself and if I do, I can put a pretty stout motor on it.  I'm glad you say that if I'm intending to mess around at high speed with aluminum that the 727 with variable speed is a good choice, bacuse that's my situation exactly.

I will enjoy being able to slow it down and slot a steel bar occasionally, but that's about as far as I'd go with steel.  For me, the 727 represents quite a weight increase from "mini mills" and should handle my "hard metal" projects pretty well.  If I really needed a "real" mill I'd buy one of these Craigslist Bridgeports with all the feeds and stuff for $5k.

I mean, milling for me right now means using the miserable milling attachment on my craptastic HF lathe, I did it one time and now I'm shopping mills. . .

However, I do understand and agree with the idea that a "deal" should not preclude buying the right machine.

The fact is, I'd probably be pretty happy with the home-converted 727m, I think, but some things you point out really get me thinking:

My needs/limitations are:

-I need to be able to move it myself, but PM 727 is 475 lbs. and PM30MV is 530 lbs, not a huge difference.  Both will need a crane or disassembly for me to move.
-Don't wish to afford the space for knee mill.  30mv is about 7 inches wider, I could afford that.
-Want to work aluminum, and plus bascially everyone says get the variable speed.

So if it were apples to apples, the comparison would be:

PM727V (the upcoming variable speed model) at 1799 vs the PM30MV at 1899.  Geez, 100 bucks is nothing here- obviously get the bigger mill!

And also, if you look at the ad copy, they state: 

More Information below under the DESCRIPTION Tab below – It is NOT just the same old model with just a belt drive upgrade –* Be sure to compare carefully*
Well, here's the thing- I might be wrong, but from the pics I've seen and from emails from PM the new PM727V IS just the same mill as the M version, but with variable speed drive.  I don't even think it gets belt conversion at all!  (The pic shows the gearbox controls are still there. . .)

So maybe running a gearbox really really fast isn't a good idea, and it's noisy!  I love quiet machines, and in my expereince, they get used and enjoyed more.

So now let me let the other shoe drop.


The original deal was that I called looking for the PM727M, and also inquired if any "discount" machines are available, and indeed, they had one 727M that was a return, and was partially disassembled. PM offered the mill as is, for a substantial discount.

It was what I wanted, and although the new PM727V was to come out this very week, it was over $600 more than my "discount" mill would be.

At that price, it was attractive to buy it, put it back together, and use the savings to put on better motor and controller than what the factory version offered.  That was my plan.  No warranty, though.

However,  I'm starting to wonder if that deal will go through or if they've thought better of it. 

Futher, if my suspicion is correct and the PM727V actually retains the gearbox and runs it fast, then maybe an even-faster conversion is unwise, and will surely make the kind of noise I hate. . .

So, if the cheap mill falls through or if I decide against it, then at full price, it's pretty obvious you go with the larger, belt driven mill.

More money, yes, but better, quieter, mill, with warranty, less assembly required= shorter route to making chips!



You Sir, may have just saved me from a grievous error.  If the cheap mill is off the table, or even if it isn't, I'll probably be happier withthe larger mill.  


Yes, more money- but when I buy, the pain of letting the cash go is temporary and quickly forgotten.  The pain of spending all your scrill and not getting what you want is long lived, and will confront you every time you turn the machine on or even look at it, ask me how I know this. . .

Belt drive is a biggie

Already ran 240v for my Unisaw

Damn, I was really looking at using my savings to tool up, but this MKSJ character has me going back to the drawing board. . . off to really look close at PM30MV

Dude, if you're a PM shill you're a great one. . . heh heh!


----------



## Alan H.

Thanks for the clarification. If it's PM/QMT, no worries. They are outstanding for customer service. 

I have two machines and lots of tooling I bought from them. I can praise their service and will buy from them again if the need arises.


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## JetMech

Silverbullet said:


> I vote variable speed, if you ever want to power tap you want as slow as possible. Even using a fly cutter on aluminum you wouldn't run real fast . Tiny drills and endmills yes . Just my thoughts.



Variable is clearly the way to go.  Full-on feature creep ensues. 

Heck, I'm talking about a PM30MV now, but disappointingly, top speed is only 2200 rpm. . .  Maybe some custom pulleys would fix that. . .


----------



## JetMech

Alan H said:


> Thanks for the clarification. If it's PM/QMT, no worries. They are outstanding for customer service.
> 
> I have two machines and lots of tooling I bought from them. I can praise their service and will buy from them again if the need arises.



Well, their slow response may have allowed me to be talked into a larger mill- score for them, I guess!


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## Bob Korves

I can well understand the issue of not having room for a bigger mill, but not the issue of having to lift it.  An engine hoist can be rented, or borrowed from a friend or neighbor.  A motorcycle lifting table would work as well.  There are many other methods of lifting it.  Hell, I could crib one up with lumber, 1 1/2" at a time if I had to.  Once it is in place, it is in place.  If moving it around is an issue, then mount it on casters from the beginning, but you are done with lifting it.  I have a 13x40 lathe, a knee mill, and a 6x18 surface grinder, and do not even own a pickup or trailer or a tow hitch.  I have friends who help me, and I help them as well...  We recently moved Ulma Doctor's large treasure trove of machines, and the easiest machine to move was a ~4000-5000 pound CNC mill.  Piece of cake...  Lots of people move heavy machinery into basements having steep stairs with turns in them, and get them back out again when it is time to move, without any special purpose equipment.  Do not be afraid of moving or lifting a machine, only with understanding and respecting the possible dangers and then mitigating them.


----------



## wrmiller

Lots of good information here. The short answer is as stated above. Small cutters in aluminum = higher spindle rpm the better. If you occasionally work in steel, simply slow your rpm/feedrate and depth of cut. I had a early PM25 that I converted to belt drive (it was already variable speed), and it could cut anything within it's size envelope, including titanium and SS. BUT...as said above, you need to adjust your settings for any given cutter/material/setup. These machines will talk to you if you listen. They will tell you if they are not happy with your current selections. Sometimes quite loudly! 

IMO geared head machines are for slow(er), heavier cuts in steel. And for guys who want to use it as a overpriced drill press. But that's just an opinion, YMMV.


----------



## mksj

The nice thing about variable speed is you can dial the speed to suit the material and cutting parameters. With aluminum, you also need some way to evacuate the chips and provide some form of coolant, or just some air and a can of WD40. There is a learning curve with different materials, so when using aluminum you want to do climb cutting to get the best finish and not regrind the chips.

The top speed of 2200-2400 RPM is plenty, you only need higher speeds for smaller cutters at high feed rates, more CNC territory or very small cutters. More Hp = bigger end mills, faster feeds and quicker material removal. My gearhead mill went to 3000 RPM, never used it past around 2400 RPM. If I needed a lot of material removal I put in a 1/2" or 3/4" roughing end mill and the chips would fly, which will not be a problem with a 2Hp motor. At the end of the day having double the Hp will go a long way and make the mill much more usable over a wider speed range. As far as I am aware all these gear head mills, but the two speed VFD should have less gears whirling around. As other have mentioned, weight is usually a concern with your first mill, and then you realize that weight is your friend (rigidity) when it comes to mills and lathes. A 500lB machine should be very manageable, a good starting point and even if you just drill some holes with it and occasionally mill a part, a whole lot of fun.

Well looked at the PM-30MV, the picture of the mill shows it as a belt drive and the RPM range of Low 50-1500 and High 1400-3000. So it does not match up with what is in the description. Definitely worth some questions when you connect with them.  Otherwise the way to go over the vs. the PM927.
*http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-30mv/*


----------



## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> I can well understand the issue of not having room for a bigger mill, but not the issue of having to lift it.  An engine hoist can be rented, or borrowed from a friend or neighbor.  A motorcycle lifting table would work as well.  There are many other methods of lifting it.  Hell, I could crib one up with lumber, 1 1/2" at a time if I had to.  Once it is in place, it is in place.  If moving it around is an issue, then mount it on casters from the beginning, but you are done with lifting it.  I have a 13x40 lathe, a knee mill, and a 6x18 surface grinder, and do not even own a pickup or trailer or a tow hitch.  I have friends who help me, and I help them as well...  We recently moved Ulma Doctor's large treasure trove of machines, and the easiest machine to move was a ~4000-5000 pound CNC mill.  Piece of cake...  Lots of people move heavy machinery into basements having steep stairs with turns in them, and get them back out again when it is time to move, without any special purpose equipment.  Do not be afraid of moving or lifting a machine, only with understanding and respecting the possible dangers and then mitigating them.



Sure, all true, and I've done similar stuff, such as getting my Unisaw out of the truck bed alone, done with ramps and cribbing and cleats that prevented runaway sliding.

And If I did get a PM30MV, I'm not sure how much bigger/heavier a bench type mill could get!

I just don't need or want bridgeport weight, and for me, I don't like to put myself in any situation I can't handle by myself.  I do sort of foresee needing to buy the crane, or rent or borrow one.  My main issue is I don't want to store it just to use it one time.

I have considered putting an I beam with hoist in there to handle things like this.

The real answer, Bob, is I've got to talk my wife into letting us move from the burbs, get my 1000 sq. ft. shop built, then I WILL fill it up with ridiculous, heavy old iron!  I just need to move to where I will die first so my widow has to deal with it!


----------



## Bob Korves

JetMech said:


> And If I did get a PM30MV, I'm not sure how much bigger/heavier a bench type mill could get!


http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-940m/
1350 lbs.


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## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-940m/
> 1350 lbs.



Heh heh, I went over there to see the same thing.  Looking hard at the PM30MV and liking it.

But really, if you're getting into 1400 lbs of bench mill, and at that point you really might as well go full knee mill.

I'm pretty satisfied the PM30MV will be a great "starter" mill for me, heh heh.


----------



## JetMech

wrmiller said:


> Lots of good information here. The short answer is as stated above. Small cutters in aluminum = higher spindle rpm the better. If you occasionally work in steel, simply slow your rpm/feedrate and depth of cut. I had a early PM25 that I converted to belt drive (it was already variable speed), and it could cut anything within it's size envelope, including titanium and SS. BUT...as said above, you need to adjust your settings for any given cutter/material/setup. These machines will talk to you if you listen. They will tell you if they are not happy with your current selections. Sometimes quite loudly!
> 
> IMO geared head machines are for slow(er), heavier cuts in steel. And for guys who want to use it as a overpriced drill press. But that's just an opinion, YMMV.



Thanks for your input, reinforces everything that I'm coming to understand about the subject.  It really sounds like I can't go wrong, and the differences are really just minor convenience issues.

Of course, that hasn't stopped me from letting you guys fuel my feature creep, and now I'm looking at way more mill than I really anticipated.

Great!


----------



## JetMech

mksj said:


> The nice thing about variable speed is you can dial the speed to suit the material and cutting parameters. With aluminum, you also need some way to evacuate the chips and provide some form of coolant, or just some air and a can of WD40. There is a learning curve with different materials, so when using aluminum you want to do climb cutting to get the best finish and not regrind the chips.
> 
> The top speed of 2200-2400 RPM is plenty, you only need higher speeds for smaller cutters at high feed rates, more CNC territory or very small cutters. More Hp = bigger end mills, faster feeds and quicker material removal. My gearhead mill went to 3000 RPM, never used it past around 2400 RPM. If I needed a lot of material removal I put in a 1/2" or 3/4" roughing end mill and the chips would fly, which will not be a problem with a 2Hp motor. At the end of the day having double the Hp will go a long way and make the mill much more usable over a wider speed range. As far as I am aware all these gear head mills, but the two speed VFD should have less gears whirling around. As other have mentioned, weight is usually a concern with your first mill, and then you realize that weight is your friend (rigidity) when it comes to mills and lathes. A 500lB machine should be very manageable, a good starting point and even if you just drill some holes with it and occasionally mill a part, a whole lot of fun.
> 
> Well looked at the PM-30MV, the picture of the mill shows it as a belt drive and the RPM range of Low 50-1500 and High 1400-3000. So it does not match up with what is in the description. Definitely worth some questions when you connect with them.  Otherwise the way to go over the vs. the PM927.
> *http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-30mv/*



Man, you are the "man."  Unless you're a woman.  And these days, I think there are a few more choices. . .

J/K but I really do appreciate your input.  I just put my wife nearly to sleep with a comparison of the two and the pros and cons.  Not kidding.

And it's true, I wasn't really looking at the PM30MV,  but now that I am it leaves me wondering, what in the world is the purpose of introducing the PM 727V?  It's a lot less mill at nearly the same price. . .


----------



## Bob Korves

Come to the BarZ Summer Bash and perhaps WIN a PM-30MV for the price of a single raffle ticket:


----------



## wrmiller

FWIW, I really wanted the PM30 that Matt was carrying back in the Ziess(sp) days, but he sold the last one literally just before I called. And he didn't have the 940 back then either. I did have a all-black Charter Oak mill that I called El Hefe, and it was a beast. It could take any cut my 935 can, but I had to put some serious work into it to get it to that point, including re-machining and scraping pretty much everything. About a year's worth IIRC. Not something I'd recommend to the casual home/hobby machinist.

Oh, and this forum and the guys who hang out here are more than happy to help you spend WAY more than you ever intended to. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.


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## Bob Korves

JetMech, if I win the PM-30MV I will give you first chance at it...


----------



## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> Come to the BarZ Summer Bash and perhaps WIN a PM-30MV for the price of a single raffle ticket:



That's cool, but I don't have that kind of luck. . .

Where is that being held?


----------



## JetMech

wrmiller said:


> FWIW, I really wanted the PM30 that Matt was carrying back in the Ziess(sp) days, but he sold the last one literally just before I called. And he didn't have the 940 back then either. I did have a all-black Charter Oak mill that I called El Hefe, and it was a beast. It could take any cut my 935 can, but I had to put some serious work into it to get it to that point, including re-machining and scraping pretty much everything. About a year's worth IIRC. Not something I'd recommend to the casual home/hobby machinist.
> 
> Oh, and this forum and the guys who hang out here are more than happy to help you spend WAY more than you ever intended to. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.



Oh sure, I"m sure you guys will recommend all sorts of goodies, I know that I will spend the mills price again at least on tooling.  I already have a few basics, but man there are some neat toys out there.  

I do think that buying an essentially ready-to-go machine will be agood start for me at my experience level.  But then there is z-axis power, x axis power, DRO, all kinds of good stuff to get int he future, along with the never-ending catalog of tooling temptations. . .

And then I want to jettison my HF lathe for the PM1030V, that is until you guys convince me I really need a 14x40. . .


----------



## wrmiller

JetMech said:


> And then I want to jettison my HF lathe for the PM1030V, that is until you guys convince me I really need a 14x40. . .



Naw...I may 'suggest' a 1340GT. But I will admit to being a bit biased as I do have one. And love it.


----------



## Bob Korves

JetMech said:


> That's cool, but I don't have that kind of luck. . .
> 
> Where is that being held?


Rancho Cucamonga, Los Angeles area, Saturday, June 24th, 8:00-5:00.  That was only a tiny portion of the raffle and door prizes being given away there.  It is pretty hard not to win something, and you get a nice goody bag just for attending.  This will be my third year, now attending the third annual Bash.  Most fun a machinist can have with his clothes on.  Oh, wait, there is also a ool there, but no skinny dipping...  Stan says there is no "P" in pool...  There may still be a couple openings to attend, there will be about 300 machinists there, swap meet, demonstrations, contests, vendors, about 20 YouTube machining video creators, and a great lunch is included.  $30.  This is at Stan's home/shop.


----------



## brino

Bob Korves said:


> Rancho Cucamonga, Los Angeles area, Saturday, June 24th, 8:00-5:00.



....and are they offering discount international flights?
(with return air freight for my prize)
-brino


----------



## Reeltor

JetMech said:


> Heh heh, I went over there to see the same thing.  Looking hard at the PM30MV and liking it.
> 
> But really, if you're getting into 1400 lbs of bench mill, and at that point you really might as well go full knee mill.
> 
> I'm pretty satisfied the PM30MV will be a great "starter" mill for me, heh heh.



Your comment above that the PM30MV will be a great STARTER mill is a red flag to me.  If there is any concern at all, in the back of your mind that you will need to upgrade to a "full knee mill"( if there is any way to swing the additional cost financially) then do it now.  Buy once and it only hurts once, buy now and then upgrade and take a hit on selling the bench mill, to me is a more expensive way to go.  

What is the old saying?  In for a penny in for a pound?  Either way you go, you will get a fine machine, personally, I would stay away from a return/no warranty partly assembled unit.  You never know what the original owner did to it ---fried the electronics comes to mind.

good luck and have fun with your new machine


----------



## Bob Korves

Reeltor said:


> Your comment above that the PM30MV will be a great STARTER mill is a red flag to me.  If there is any concern at all, in the back of your mind that you will need to upgrade to a "full knee mill"( if there is any way to swing the additional cost financially) then do it now.  Buy once and it only hurts once, buy now and then upgrade and take a hit on selling the bench mill, to me is a more expensive way to go.
> 
> What is the old saying?  In for a penny in for a pound?  Either way you go, you will get a fine machine, personally, I would stay away from a return/no warranty partly assembled unit.  You never know what the original owner did to it ---fried the electronics comes to mind.
> 
> good luck and have fun with your new machine


Or, simply do not buy new machines.  If you are any kind of a horse trader, you can sell a used machine, that was purchased used, for at least as much as you have into it.  Then an upgrade is all upgrade cost, not a loss as well as an upgrade.  I refuse to take the large depreciation cost of buying new machines.  Others simply do not want other people's used stuff and are willing to pay extra for it.  Whatever works...


----------



## JetMech

wrmiller said:


> Naw...I may 'suggest' a 1340GT. But I will admit to being a bit biased as I do have one. And love it.



I'll upgrade the lathe later, since I already have one.  Don't worry, I know the value of the larger weight and size, but I will probably stick smaller than that.  I've turned down a LeBlond (the one in my pic) at a very low price, because of the difficultyof moving it.  Dude just kept going lower and lower, trying to get me to solve his problem of getting rid of it. . .

The PM 1340gt is really nice. . .


----------



## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> Rancho Cucamonga, Los Angeles area, Saturday, June 24th, 8:00-5:00.  That was only a tiny portion of the raffle and door prizes being given away there.  It is pretty hard not to win something, and you get a nice goody bag just for attending.  This will be my third year, now attending the third annual Bash.  Most fun a machinist can have with his clothes on.  Oh, wait, there is also a ool there, but no skinny dipping...  Stan says there is no "P" in pool...  There may still be a couple openings to attend, there will be about 300 machinists there, swap meet, demonstrations, contests, vendors, about 20 YouTube machining video creators, and a great lunch is included.  $30.  This is at Stan's home/shop.



That sounds really awesome, and I guess I'm a little closer than the guy inthe next post, but I have the same question- when I win the mill, how do I get it home?

Just for kicks, I wonder what UPS would quote on a 600 lb box. . .


----------



## JetMech

Reeltor said:


> Your comment above that the PM30MV will be a great STARTER mill is a red flag to me.  If there is any concern at all, in the back of your mind that you will need to upgrade to a "full knee mill"( if there is any way to swing the additional cost financially) then do it now.  Buy once and it only hurts once, buy now and then upgrade and take a hit on selling the bench mill, to me is a more expensive way to go.
> 
> What is the old saying?  In for a penny in for a pound?  Either way you go, you will get a fine machine, personally, I would stay away from a return/no warranty partly assembled unit.  You never know what the original owner did to it ---fried the electronics comes to mind.
> 
> good luck and have fun with your new machine



HA!  It worked, I knew that would spool someone up. . .

What you guys need to know is I started shopping last year, looking at mini-mills, and now I'm looking at the second heaviest bench mill available! (From PM)

There will always be a guy that says, the "next one up" but I've already taken that advice a few times in a row!

That bench mill is way MORE than I need.  I'm a casual, lazy hobbyist so it's never going to see production work.

I do unsderstand about buying once, but it's not a great concern to me, since I do not wish to house or move a knee mill, yet.  I will do so when i get a larger shop.  So to have a mill now means to do this, and it's just a toy for me.

I will enjoy the thing every time I use it, thinking of the mini mill and how this is better.  If I do need the capability of a knee mill, I can take that operation to work and run it on our brand new Sharp $30,000 mill at work.

And when I do finally buy that knee mill, who says I'd sell this one?


On another note, I am taking the advice here to skip the other mill, primarily due to it's gear drive but also warranty, assembly issues.  It is from PM, though. . .

By the way, I'm not intersted in that mill but if anyone else is, then Matt at PM has a partially disassembled PM727M that was a return, Matt says it will work fine.

If you are intersted, call and ask about it, and he may offer youthe substantial discount he offered me.  Could be areal score for the person who wants that model.


----------



## Alan H.

JetMech,
Have you searched for used machines in your area? 

I searched for used machines in my area for years.  They are scarce and overpriced.  When you do find them, they are typically worn slap out and candidates for the furnace at the scrap fed steel mill.  I finally gave up and bought new and am glad that I did.  I had an older worn out machine for years and the upgrade has been fantastic.

Is Kansas City rich enough in content of used stuff to make the hunt worthwhile?


----------



## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> Or, simply do not buy new machines.  If you are any kind of a horse trader, you can sell a used machine, that was purchased used, for at least as much as you have into it.  Then an upgrade is all upgrade cost, not a loss as well as an upgrade.  I refuse to take the large depreciation cost of buying new machines.  Others simply do not want other people's used stuff and are willing to pay extra for it.  Whatever works...



Heh heh, the old 'arn curmudgeons have already enticed me into their ranks.  I shopped large table saws for a while, and was about settled on a 120v hybrid model, but guys like you convinced me the old Unisaw off Craigslist was the better saw, and cheaper.  Just have to deal with 240v and the weight, which is of course an advantage once in place.

Well, after watching the list for a while, I despaired of one ever coming up.  I use the Kansas City CL and it's got lots of traffic, but not like LA.  Well, one finally came up and I went an hour away to see it.  It was very old, but in good shape, with an 8' genuine Biesemeyer fence and huge outfeed table to suit, it had come out of a cabinet shop.

Well, it wasn't _exactly_ what I was looking for, and it was a tad above my price, so I made an offer of 75% that was rejected.  I left my number, and a month later he called back, up against his deployment, no where to store it and on the way to Afghanistan.  I hated that it went down like that, but on the other hand it was take my money or take nothing and abandon it, so I did him a favor really.

I took it home, wired it up, and loosely bolted the fence on, put a craptastic blade on it and made some cuts.  Damn, that thing cuts better than any saw I'd ever had!  Once it was bolted up and tuned, it cuts like buddah, with glue line rips.  Awesome.

Serial # research indicated it was a 1938 model, nearly twice my own age!  (I'm catching up to it though. . .)

So I got a great saw at a killer price and could no doubt sellit for more than I paid,  so I believe youon your advice. . .

I already got the old 'arn bug.

I'll get the BP someday, when I have more room.  And have the experience to evaluate one.  Unlike Unisaws, those are onCL all day long.


----------



## JetMech

Alan H said:


> JetMech,
> Have you searched for used machines in your area?
> 
> I searched for used machines in my area for years.  They are scarce and overpriced.  When you do find them, they are typically worn slap out and candidates for the furnace at the scrap fed steel mill.  I finally gave up and bought new and am glad that I did.  I had an older worn out machine for years and the upgrade has been fantastic.
> 
> Is Kansas City rich enough in content of used stuff to make the hunt worthwhile?



Heh, I was going to get into this on the last post a bit, but didn't want to appear argumentative.  I appreciate everything I'm hearing here, and agree with 99%.

As far as KC CL goes, it's ok.  It's a big city, but not a very vital one.

My Unisaw story above is the barn find, true, but it's rare.  I watched Unisaws for a while and when they (rarley) did come up, they were worn out junk at premium prices.  Everything is like that, especially lathes.  I basically went and looked at every Logan, SB, craftsman, that LeBlond, many others.  Everyone wanted a grand for their clapped out, converted from spindle-shaft drive 40's SB or they wanted 2 grand for their clapped out, questionably repainted Logan.  All of it was like that.

I ended up buying a used HF 8x16 for about half of new price, or $500, but it came with many extras such as the milling attachment (which is "desirable" but useless) BUT the dude was fire-saling stuff that didn't really belong to him so I talked him into throwing in ALL of their tooling, if I bumped it to $550.

That tooling was over $500 worth of sandvik holders and inserts. . .  So for $550 I came home with well over $1500 worth of stuff, it's served me well and I'll sell that lathe, in miuch better shape, to someone for at least that much, while keeping the nicest tooling!


But man, I'm with you- looking for machines around here is crapshoot, might get lucky but it will take time, effort, and some failures to get great deals that way.  If I bought an old BP I wouldn't really know what to look for.  Same dude from above tried to sell me his for 5 grand. . .


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## JetMech

OK FOLKS!

I appreciate all the comments here, and have no wish to end this discussion.  You guys are great!

However, I'm pretty sure at this point that the mill for me will be a new PM30MV, and wouldn't you know, they are in stock!

Wife is ok with it, even pointed out where I had some cash stashed.  Good woman!


At this point, I expect that I will plan my upgrade path like this:

-Right away:  X power feed, collet set, face mill, fly cutter, end mills

-ASAP:  Other cutting tools, DRO,

-When possible:  Z power feed, coolant system

Would you guys adjust that list any?  

Keep in mind, the jumpo to new PM30MV does stretch the mad money a bit. . .

I have some cheap end mills so really an R8 collet set would get me cutting. . .


Any reason not to build a very stout wood stand , with drawers and so forth?  (I'm an experienced carpenter)  I'd been planning to put this on my bench, but now I'm thinking dedicated stand in the corner. . .

I have my lathe, about 350 lbs, ona cheap HD rollaway cab, but I'm a bit wary of doing that with this mill- maybe a Snap-On 27" rollaway would support it. . .

What do you folks think?


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## tq60

Avoid a standard tool cabinet as the mill is heavy and it has viberations that will work on the cabinet.

Simplest path is a wood stand with dimensional lumber in the corners and 3/4 thick ply on 3 sides and top.

Under top is cross members to hold weight.

On very top place sheet melamine as it is a vinyl covered particle board that structure is not strong but surface great for cleanup.

Locate a suitable tool cabinet for under the mill and build the above box to fit chest inside.

Use cross members between sides for top support and in front one drill holes to hold your collet and Allen wrenches. 



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## JetMech

tq60 said:


> Avoid a standard tool cabinet as the mill is heavy and it has viberations that will work on the cabinet.
> 
> Simplest path is a wood stand with dimensional lumber in the corners and 3/4 thick ply on 3 sides and top.
> 
> Under top is cross members to hold weight.
> 
> On very top place sheet melamine as it is a vinyl covered particle board that structure is not strong but surface great for cleanup.
> 
> Locate a suitable tool cabinet for under the mill and build the above box to fit chest inside.
> 
> Use cross members between sides for top support and in front one drill holes to hold your collet and Allen wrenches.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk




Awesome, that is a great idea.

I guess I have a sketchup/carpentry project to do while I wait for the mill. . .

Thanks for the line-out on how to do it.

I bet I could destroy melamine pretty quickly, I do use it in aqaurium stands and the like, but I do have a nice piece of white formica covered 1" ply that was part of the original Unisaw outfeed table. . .


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## higgite

JetMech said:


> HA!  It worked, I knew that would spool someone up. . .
> 
> There will always be a guy that says, the "next one up" but I've already taken that advice a few times in a row!
> 
> That bench mill is way MORE than I need.  I'm a casual, lazy hobbyist so it's never going to see production work.



Aw, c'mon, Jet. Why settle for a new pickup truck when you might find a killer deal on a used 14-yard dump truck that will do everything the pickup will and more? 

Tom


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## tq60

We built a bench years ago from assorted harvested goods...

A steel frame on floor that once was a display stand with a group of tool chests for storage setting on top of that 

Plywood structure like an old style six pack carton surrounding tool chests with space for floor mount drill press in corner.

Top as suggested above.

On top was hf mill on one side and lathe along other.

Makes for great work center.

We have yet to stain ours.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## wrmiller

When I had my PM25 and SB1001 lathe, I had both on 40" Craftsman toolboxes that I built outriggers for to stabilize the mill (didn't need them for the lathe, just made some screw jacks to stick under the toolbox). Zero problems with that setup, and I had a bunch of drawers to keep stuff!


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## JetMech

higgite said:


> Aw, c'mon, Jet. Why settle for a new pickup truck when you might find a killer deal on a used 14-yard dump truck that will do everything the pickup will and more?
> 
> Tom



This, my friend, is one of the funniest, and most apt analogies of my situation.  Hats off to you!  I really enjoy this. . .


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## JetMech

wrmiller said:


> When I had my PM25 and SB1001 lathe, I had both on 40" Craftsman toolboxes that I built outriggers for to stabilize the mill (didn't need them for the lathe, just made some screw jacks to stick under the toolbox). Zero problems with that setup, and I had a bunch of drawers to keep stuff!
> 
> View attachment 235642



That is a nice shop area and similar to my setup.  I think this mill is a bit heavy for that setup, but I have a similar lathe on a very similar toolbox.

Any detail pics of your outriggers?  Can't quite mentally picture that.


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## wrmiller

No, sorry. Basically I just took some angle iron I had laying around and fit some large bolts for adjustment and made some cups to sit between the concrete and the bolt heads. Had the pieces at both ends of the toolbox. Crude, but it worked. Once I quit stubbing my toes on the outriggers that is.


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## JetMech

tq60 said:


> We built a bench years ago from assorted harvested goods...
> 
> A steel frame on floor that once was a display stand with a group of tool chests for storage setting on top of that
> 
> Plywood structure like an old style six pack carton surrounding tool chests with space for floor mount drill press in corner.
> 
> Top as suggested above.
> 
> On top was hf mill on one side and lathe along other.
> 
> Makes for great work center.
> 
> We have yet to stain ours.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk



I would love to see a picture of that, I love to repurpose stuff.


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## JetMech

wrmiller said:


> No, sorry. Basically I just took some angle iron I had laying around and fit some large bolts for adjustment and made some cups to sit between the concrete and the bolt heads. Had the pieces at both ends of the toolbox. Crude, but it worked. Once I quit stubbing my toes on the outriggers that is.



Sure, I understand.  

So I notice here and elsewhere that a lot of machinist hobbyists are also gun hobbyists.  I am a proficeint shooter but not even a novice gunsmith- I've always been interested.  

I can imagine many things one might do for a gun with a lathe, but what, other than removing the pesky parts of the action that preclude rapid fire, would I do for a  gun with a mill?  I'm asking, because I have lots fo friends with guns that are probably dumb enough to let me work on them.  I'd love to try.

In my state, I can make silencers legally if I don't try to sell them.


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## Bob Korves

JetMech said:


> I'm asking, because I have lots fo friends with guns that are probably dumb enough to let me work on them. I'd love to try.


Before you work on anybody else's gun, even for free, make sure you have read and understand the FEDERAL as well as state and local rules that control that sort of work.  You can get into serious trouble if you do something illegal and get caught.  I am not just talking about illegal modifications, I am also talking about doing work that requires licensing to do, even if no money changes hands.  I am not saying not to do it, just know what you are getting yourself into...

This thread is going off-topic...


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## JetMech

Bob Korves said:


> Before you work on anybody else's gun, even for free, make sure you have read and understand the FEDERAL as well as state and local rules that control that sort of work.  You can get into serious trouble if you do something illegal and get caught.  I am not just talking about illegal modifications, I am also talking about doing work that requires licensing to do, even if no money changes hands.  I am not saying not to do it, just know what you are getting yourself into...
> 
> This thread is going off-topic...




That is certainly good advice.  While I'm pretty aware of my State's gun laws, I hadn't really considered the legalities of working on them.  However, in a State where you can make your own silencers, I'd doubt there is much to worry about from them.  The Federal Government, on the other hand, specializes in violating State's rights so you're quite right to suggest that I protect myself from them!

And yeah, I better get back to the topic at hand, before the OP gets ******. . .


J/K, the thread served it's purpose, and I'm pretty sure I'm going with the PM30MV.   This decision became much easier, once some kind soul dropped by PM and put a deposit on the discount mill, thus removing it from play.  I'd already decided to pass on it, but it's really easy not to second guess myself now that it is no longer available.


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## wrmiller

I've been building my own competition pistols and rifles since the mid 80s. I was also lucky to mentor under a very good pistolsmith. I was also offered a job to work for a nationally known pistolsmith in the midwest. But he was in the midwest, and I didn't want to move there. That and one of the first tasks he wanted of me was to spend a year building two pistols for submittal  to the Pistolsmiths Guild. That would have been a ton of work for someone just branching out on their own. 

I have been very careful regarding pistolsmithing/gunsmithing. I don't want to get on the wrong side of the BATF, or any law enforcement agency for that matter. Given recent events in my life, I have been considering getting a gunsmithing FFL so I can legally work on other folks guns. I haven't researched it in depth yet though.

And don't fret the OT stuff jetmech: pretty much every thread here on this forum goes off topic to some degree. Maybe some folks are just touchy about certain OT subject matters?

And yes, you will use your mill just as much or more for gunsmithing. It just depends on what you are doing.


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## JetMech

wrmiller said:


> I've been building my own competition pistols and rifles since the mid 80s. I was also lucky to mentor under a very good pistolsmith. I was also offered a job to work for a nationally known pistolsmith in the midwest. But he was in the midwest, and I didn't want to move there. That and one of the first tasks he wanted of me was to spend a year building two pistols for submittal  to the Pistolsmiths Guild. That would have been a ton of work for someone just branching out on their own.



Two years?  How would you support yourself during that time?  Or did he mean, a year of all your spare time?



> I have been very careful regarding pistolsmithing/gunsmithing. I don't want to get on the wrong side of the BATF, or any law enforcement agency for that matter. Given recent events in my life, I have been considering getting a gunsmithing FFL so I can legally work on other folks guns. I haven't researched it in depth yet though.



I will look into it.  I'm already an outlaw in several ways so I probably don't need to add this, but I'm not worried about doing stuff for my friends.  They tell the government where to find me, I bring out what I know about them, heh heh. . .



> And don't fret the OT stuff jetmech: pretty much every thread here on this forum goes off topic to some degree. Maybe some folks are just touchy about certain OT subject matters?



Heh heh, I erm, wasn't worried about pissing off the "OP" or getting OT.  I'm a veteran of threads with much worse thread police and warn-holes than this. . .  I appreciate the advice and I know it gives some people a warm fuzzy to be the content cop.  No worries.

In order to keep the threads "clean" I did start a new one about my mill stand I'll need to build.



> And yes, you will use your mill just as much or more for gunsmithing. It just depends on what you are doing.



I can't wait.  My old Taurus auto doesn't have a rail on the frame like the new ones. . . I suppose I could fix that issue, for instance.  I'd not try that until I was sure I'd not trash the gun, though it would not be great loss with that piece.


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## brav65

JetMech said:


> Indeed.  However, this outfit has a good reputation, and while people praise the sevice they get, every review mentions that you get response within a "reasonable time" meaning it could be quicker.
> 
> The vendor is Precision Matthews.  The reason that it's taking more attention and wrangling is I'm trying to buy a "return" off of them at a discount.  Service after the sale isn't really an issue, as there is no warranty if I buy this mill.  I don't look for much service after the sale on Chinese tools anyway, and if something breaks, I typically repalce it with better stuff.
> 
> I'm going to email them again right now, and turn up the pressure, and I will also email their "regular" sales people.  But hey, if they don't want to take my money, I'll take it somewhere else, many people make version of this mill.
> 
> To tell you the truth, I can't figure outhow they run that business at all, given that they are nearly always out of everything they sell, just look on their site!  I kind of think that this is some side-biz and they run it super-understaffed to save money.
> 
> However, PM consistently gets better reviews for QC and for being the "best" version of these import machines, plus, the white and blue is so cool!
> 
> But then, Grizz Green will be acceptable too, if they won't "shut up and take my money!"




I have done business with Matt and it can get frutrating sometimes to get a response from him.  He is a small operation and he does many of the jobs himself.  That being said he is a top notch guy and a man of his word.  I ordered an x axis power feed for my PM-25. It took waaaay longer to get than expected.  It showed up at my house one day without me paying for it.  I contacted Matt and he said he was not going to charge me because it took soooo long.  I have also had some minor warranty items on my mill that Matt resolved quickly with new parts over nighted to me.


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## Cadillac STS

A comment on your upgrade path:  Very first thing should be a high quality milling vise.  High quality is important here because that is what will hold all your material and it needs to be accurate and square.  This is one place to spend significant money because if you get a cheap vise nothing is going to be straight or repeatable.  And a good set of parallels.

Then a system to tram the mill and set the vise absolutely square as you bolt it to the table.

Then the other things you mentioned after that.

Size of the milling vise is really important to size of your mill and I'll let others comment on size because  I am not familiar with your mill.


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## Eddyde

I agree with Cadillac, a good vise is the most important "accessory" you need. Kurt has "scratch and dent" vises available, they are fully functional warrantee and all but with minor cosmetic flaws, at a nice discount.  
Also, I would consider getting the DRO before the power feed. IMHO the DRO is much more useful.


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## Woffler

I have  something similar to this mill you talking about , i very quickly said this is not going to work , they rattle like a freight train on old track and the speeds are way to slow .
I got rid of the head and purchased a new belt drive head from Tormach from there 1100 model, speeds with VFD 150 t0 6,000 RPM ,yes you can buy the whole head .

And i soon discovered this was slow going and converted to cnc  this added another whole dimension to my shop and what the hay we might as well CNC the lathe too ,i have to say it was the best thing i ever did .

But i had to do it piece meal because of funding but it has been fun doing it .


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## clockworkcheval

I agree with the comment on low speed. The lowest I could do was 50 RPM and the highest 2000 RPM. I added a speed controller to get as low as 15 RPM and I regularly use it for large bores.It also gets me as high as 3000 RPM. Later on I added a separate milling head that gives me up to 6000 RPM. But overall I find more use for the low speeds.


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## JetMech

brav65 said:


> I have done business with Matt and it can get frutrating sometimes to get a response from him.  He is a small operation and he does many of the jobs himself.  That being said he is a top notch guy and a man of his word.  I ordered an x axis power feed for my PM-25. It took waaaay longer to get than expected.  It showed up at my house one day without me paying for it.  I contacted Matt and he said he was not going to charge me because it took soooo long.  I have also had some minor warranty items on my mill that Matt resolved quickly with new parts over nighted to me.



Hey, sorry to get back to you so late, I'm sure you aren't worried about it.  I ultimately didn't buy a mill-   I still have it on my list but once everyone convinced me to go for the larger, belt driven mill, I decided to back off and save a few more pennies.

Also, I realized that there were many cleanup projects that needed my attention before I tried to situate a mchine of this size in my work area.  I will buy a mill soon, and it will probably be the PM30V.  Thanks to everyone for their advice, it certainly informed my thought process.

I agree that Matt's reputation is good, but I will say, if I pay this much for merch of any kind I expect prompt attetntion to my concerns and questions.  One thing that cooled me off on this sale was the way that it was hard to get any information out of QMT, and there are some more things I'd like to know before I buy. 



Cadillac STS said:


> A comment on your upgrade path:  Very first thing should be a high quality milling vise.  High quality is important here because that is what will hold all your material and it needs to be accurate and square.  This is one place to spend significant money because if you get a cheap vise nothing is going to be straight or repeatable.  And a good set of parallels.
> 
> Then a system to tram the mill and set the vise absolutely square as you bolt it to the table.
> 
> Then the other things you mentioned after that.
> 
> Size of the milling vise is really important to size of your mill and I'll let others comment on size because  I am not familiar with your mill.



Great advice, certainly correct.  I've looked at 4" and 5" Kurts and I cannot believe that you can't make something 95% as good, for less.   You pay a lot for the "K-U-R-T" decoration.  I'll be in the market for a good knock-off, probably.  Recommendations?




Eddyde said:


> I agree with Cadillac, a good vise is the most important "accessory" you need. Kurt has "scratch and dent" vises available, they are fully functional warrantee and all but with minor cosmetic flaws, at a nice discount.
> Also, I would consider getting the DRO before the power feed. IMHO the DRO is much more useful.



Yes, DRO would be really nice.  $700 for the QMT one is too much for a Chinese DRO, so I'd have to install my own.  I'd pretty much thought o f the vice as an integral component rather than an accessory, but I appreciate you guys making sure I know I need one.



Woffler said:


> I have  something similar to this mill you talking about , i very quickly said this is not going to work , they rattle like a freight train on old track and the speeds are way to slow .
> I got rid of the head and purchased a new belt drive head from Tormach from there 1100 model, speeds with VFD 150 t0 6,000 RPM ,yes you can buy the whole head .
> 
> And i soon discovered this was slow going and converted to cnc  this added another whole dimension to my shop and what the hay we might as well CNC the lathe too ,i have to say it was the best thing i ever did .
> 
> But i had to do it piece meal because of funding but it has been fun doing it .



Yes, the folks here quickly convinced me that gear-heads were a waste of time.  I'm interested in your swap- How did you determine the Tormach head would fit your mill?  I'm really interested in that if you have any details.

I may get into CNC later but for now I figure I'll be better served by learning manual machining first.  I will get into CNC someday, it's just too cool!



clockworkcheval said:


> I agree with the comment on low speed. The lowest I could do was 50 RPM and the highest 2000 RPM. I added a speed controller to get as low as 15 RPM and I regularly use it for large bores.It also gets me as high as 3000 RPM. Later on I added a separate milling head that gives me up to 6000 RPM. But overall I find more use for the low speeds.



Very interesting- is this "separate head" a whole other milling head like Woffler above, or is it some tyoe of added attachment?  In any case I appreciate your advice.  It's clear I need variable speed and a wide envelope.


Thanks for all the replies everyone, I try to respond quickly but for some reson I wasn't getting notifications for a while.


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