# Black Friday Burning a hole in my pocket.. Decisions, Decisions



## stevezero (Nov 27, 2021)

I've spent far too much time Black Friday Shopping on the laptop and phone.  I'm looking at Benchtop mills.  Here's what I've boiled it down to...

These are what I'm leaning towards. 

Input would be great!  Thanks in advance

From Micromark
Microlux R8 mega package That has a bunch of tooling and a feed system.

Also, same mill without the tooling bundle.
MicroLux® High Precision Heavy Duty R8 

LMS HiTorque 4190 Deluxe with DRO and interlocked spindle.

LMS  Hitorque 3990
Without DRO


Two of LMS's smaller machines, more in line with the Sherline products.
4700
MT2 HiTorque Micro Mill 


4660
And a scratch/dent/demo of the same unit, in er-16. Price on this is 700.


----------



## Just for fun (Nov 27, 2021)

I wish I could help more, I don't much about the little mills.  Just looking at your list, I like the LMS 4190 with DRO.  It looks kind of like the 3990 is the same machine but without the DRO.  You could always add a DRO later and maybe save a little money and hopefully have fun at the same time.

Someone will stop by that knows more about the little mills that can give you better insight.

Good Luck
TIm


----------



## Aaron_W (Nov 28, 2021)

I see from your other post it looks like you are probably looking for a mill to support your RC / modelling hobby. I'm not that familiar with any of the mills you've listed but both vendors are pretty solid, I'm a regular customer of both for tools.

Of those you've listed I'd probably go with the LMS 3990 / 4190, as it is the biggest of the bunch and small mills run out of room quickly. It also is cheaper (3990) anyway than the Microlux. I'm not sure if the 4190 is really worth paying another $700, a 50% increase over the 3990. At almost $2000 I'd be seriously tempted to go a bit higher and get something bigger like a Precision Matthews PM25 ($2300) if you could manage the space.
For the money the 4700 actually looks like a pretty decent little mill, but spending $300 for the extra 2" of table to spindle height on the 3990 is worthwhile in my opinion.

Other than rigidity the biggest issue you run into with small mills is the height between the spindle and the table. 9-1/2" on the 4700, 10" on the Microlux, and 11-1/2" on the 3990/4190. Off the top you lose at least 2" as soon as you factor in an end mill or drill bit, then add a vise, rotary table etc to the table and that space goes away quickly. As far as Rigidity at 175lbs the 3990 is quite a bit heavier than the others, the Microlux is 110lbs, so not much heavier than the 4700 at 106lbs.


I have a Sherline 5400 mill, which I also bought for making model parts. It does a fine job for the small parts I wanted to make. You mentioned it seeming too small, but with the extended column the 5400 actually has a 1/2" more distance spindle to table than the 3990. No doubt the 3990 is the winner in rigidity though since it weighs 3x as much. Not trying to sway you to Sherline, but I wouldn't dismiss Sherline or Taig for their seemingly small size, they have a much larger work envelope than their size would suggest and great support in regard to the options and tooling available.

On the other end I also have a small 6x24" Clausing knee mill. The Sherline is nice for small parts with its high RPM for small end mills, but the Clausing is what I go to for anything bigger than a couple of inches. The PM25, and Grizzly G0704 are of a similar size and power in a benchtop mill. Much smaller and easier to move than a Bridgeport, but a lot more capable than the mini-mills.


None of the machines you mentioned seem to actually be on sale for Black Friday so unless you just need to spend money you don't really have a time crunch to make a decision. A couple of things I would look at to help decide between mills is:

Max table to spindle height, this is a more important spec than Z axis (vertical) travel. You really never need to touch the spindle to the table so where 10" of travel may seem like an advantage over 8" on machines with 11-12" spindle to table height, the reality is you will rarely see an actual difference in use.

I'd also say Y axis (in and out) is a more critical comparison than the X axis (side to side) travel since the Y axis is often far more constrained, particularly on small mills. At only 4" the Microlux R8 has less Y axis travel than many smaller mills including Sherline. Of those you mentioned the 4700 actually has the most at 5.9". 5 to 5-1/2" of Y travel is pretty typical of small bench top mills.

X axis travel is not unimportant but unless you are looking at a lot of long projects or a mill has a significantly shorter X travel than others of a similar size, it is the axis you are least likely to exceed on the small projects suitable for a small mill.

Max RPM of the spindle, small drills and end mills need higher rpms. 2500-3000rpm is fairly typical of small mills, the 4700 goes up to 5000 rpm, Sherline and Taig have options allowing 10,000 rpm.
Compare this to a Dremel tool which is designed around 1/8" cutters. Dremels are capable of 50,000 rpm, so if you are thinking about 1/8" or smaller endmills even the fastest small mills are well below the optimum speeds for tiny end mills.

In your other post you mentioned debating between R8 vs MT vs ER spindles. Personally I don't think it really matters much on mills of this size. R8 is very common on larger mills, but on these small mills you are most likely just going to be using collets or an end mill holder. All of these are easy to find and of a similar price. You are looking at maybe $100 for a collet set so not a huge savings if you later upgrade to a full size mill and can transfer your collet set over.
On a bigger mill it can be more of an issue, since there is more spindle mounted tooling that you might want to use, and can be a particular issue on some older mills that use a less common or proprietary spindle taper.

Those are my thoughts anyway, and welcome.


----------



## sdelivery (Nov 28, 2021)

I have never looked at mini mills.
I just assumed a Bridgeport was the only way to go. 
I would like to see what everyone is talking about...
Would you guys please post an occasional picture?


----------



## stevezero (Nov 29, 2021)

I'm new so i couldnt post links yet.  It kept rejecting my post. LOL

The microlux R8 minimill is a bundle, with a power feed, and some tooling.  It may fall under their 20% off cyber monday coupon.

The little machine shop mills are very nice as well, It's a matter of getting the upgraded version with the DRO, or the less expensive model without DRO and add power feed when it comes back in stock.

A deceased friend's wife has his sherline (unsure of models at the moment) minimill and lathe.  I may end up with those, because he already had made several setup jigs I could use to make and sell some sailboat parts.  I'm also going to purchase his pc, which had his 3d printer software/files, and his cnc router software and files.

I may be an idiot and look at a bridgeport for sale locally on FB, but i honestly dont have the space for it.  LOL


----------



## Road_Clam (Nov 29, 2021)

stevezero said:


> I've spent far too much time Black Friday Shopping on the laptop and phone.  I'm looking at Benchtop mills.  Here's what I've boiled it down to...
> 
> These are what I'm leaning towards.
> 
> ...











						Some LMS4190 feedback now that i've thrown a lot of chips
					

Bottom line absolutely LOVE this mill. I enjoy some pretty intricate hobbies such as vintage motorcycles, guns and 1/5 scale gas RC models. Over the past couple months my mill has proven to be an absolute problem solver with respect to machining widgets and repairing broken components that I...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				












						new LMS 4190 setup first impressions
					

So my new LMS 4190 is up and running. Spent the day learning the mill and doing some minor disassembly and cleaning and lube. Overall my mill was assembled ok from the factory. Everything works smooth and snug. My only issue is the fact my column is out of tram a total of .032" over the full...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Any specific questions feel free to ask.


----------



## homebrewed (Nov 30, 2021)

I own the micro-mark benchtop mill, with the R8 spindle and 500W motor.  I really didn't have to do much with it other than the expected adjustments to start making swarf so that was good.  The brushless motor controller does put out a fair amount of electrical noise so the capacitive-pickup style of DRO can be problematic.  I recommend buying one pre-fitted with optical/magnetic DROs or adding DROs to these machines, mostly because the table can have a fair amount of backlash.  If you buy Igaging DROs be prepared to screw around with them a lot to get around the noise issue.  I certainly had to.

I have encountered the so-called "head drop" problem that is common to this design (a rack & pinion drive for Z, no quill, funky coarse/fine transmission), but replacing the torsion spring with an air cylinder took care of a lot of that.  The sloppy transmission problem was addressed by putting a DRO on the Z axis.  BTW the LMS air spring upgrade kit also increases the Z range some.

I regularly run into problems with the relatively small range of the XY table on my mill.  Some of the LMS offerings give you more range, plus their solid column is more rigid.  It depend on if you think you need the ability to tilt the column:  but for me, I've NEVER found it necessary to tilt the column for a milling task.  In this case, "never" means about 10 years worth of milling.

So if I had it to do over again I probably still would buy another benchtop mill, but one of the LMS offerings with a solid column and greater XY range.  My $.02 (USD .


----------



## weaselfire (Dec 1, 2021)

First, you can't go wrong with any of the choices you mention. I prefer the LMS options, but a lot of the modelers I know love the Micromark options. I'm just not into the modeling end as much so they weren't quite as attractive.

FWIW, the LMS options you mention are basically upgraded Harbor Freight class machines. If you bought Harbor Freight, you'd eventually buy the upgrades that are already in the LMS options. Yeah, I know from experience, though it was a Grizzly version I started with...

Jeff


Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## stevezero (Dec 8, 2021)

Well, I ended up doing the micromark mill with their bundled accessory kit with the power feed.  I was able to use an additional discount code, and it arrived within a few days (obviously they didnt want to wait for buyers remorse to kick in).  I've not yet unboxed anything, other than opening the box with the base to look at the size.  

I thought hard about the LMS 3990, but I think this will be fine for me.  If not, I have a friend who would buy it for what I paid for it. (at least that's what I'll tell me wife)  LOL

Next up will be mounting ideas.  I've got a 26x22 rollaround tool box I was thinking about using.  Either 3/4 MDF, or 3/4 ply, mounted to the top of the box, and the mill mounted to that.  plenty of space for tooling and vises below, and still keeps my workbenches free.  Any potential issues with that idea?  I could mount it to a bench if needed.


----------



## Aaron_W (Dec 8, 2021)

stevezero said:


> Well, I ended up doing the micromark mill with their bundled accessory kit with the power feed.  I was able to use an additional discount code, and it arrived within a few days (obviously they didnt want to wait for buyers remorse to kick in).  I've not yet unboxed anything, other than opening the box with the base to look at the size.
> 
> I thought hard about the LMS 3990, but I think this will be fine for me.  If not, I have a friend who would buy it for what I paid for it. (at least that's what I'll tell me wife)  LOL
> 
> Next up will be mounting ideas.  I've got a 26x22 rollaround tool box I was thinking about using.  Either 3/4 MDF, or 3/4 ply, mounted to the top of the box, and the mill mounted to that.  plenty of space for tooling and vises below, and still keeps my workbenches free.  Any potential issues with that idea?  I could mount it to a bench if needed.



My Sherline mill is mounted to a plywood base and lives on top of a 26" US General tool chest. The Micromeark is about 2x the weight but I doubt that is a problem.


----------



## stevezero (Dec 8, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> My Sherline mill is mounted to a plywood base and lives on top of a 26" US General tool chest. The Micromeark is about 2x the weight but I doubt that is a problem.


I have the same box.  I was going to purchase a second and bolt one of my workbench tops to them, and make a mega bench, but they didn't have one in stock for a 90 mile radius. for what gas prices are, I would have bought the 44 inch box if they had it in stock  at my local store on Sunday.   hahaha


----------



## Aaron_W (Dec 9, 2021)

stevezero said:


> I have the same box.  I was going to purchase a second and bolt one of my workbench tops to them, and make a mega bench, but they didn't have one in stock for a 90 mile radius. for what gas prices are, I would have bought the 44 inch box if they had it in stock  at my local store on Sunday.   hahaha



My Sherline lathe lives on a matching 44" USG box. They make a nice base for small machines.


----------



## homebrewed (Dec 9, 2021)

I mounted my Micromark on a potting bench I bought from HF.  It has a 2x4 top so pretty hefty.  A trestle design, it's a little wobbly so I reinforced it with a cross piece across the back.  The shelf on the bottom gives me a fair amount of storage space.  I mounted an outlet strip on one of the legs to provide power for the mill and other accessories.  I wouldn't recommend placing an outlet strip on the benchtop due to the possibility of swarf getting into the sockets.  That could get "interesting". 

The X and Y axis handwheels were a little too close to the benchtop for me, so I elevated the mill on a square of 3/4" plywood.  When you mount the mill, keep in mind that the table (and handwheels) move, so you don't want to inadvertently limit your already limited range of motion.

Have fun with your new mill!


----------



## Road_Clam (Dec 11, 2021)

stevezero said:


> I have the same box.  I was going to purchase a second and bolt one of my workbench tops to them, and make a mega bench, but they didn't have one in stock for a 90 mile radius. for what gas prices are, I would have bought the 44 inch box if they had it in stock  at my local store on Sunday.   hahaha


A big mistake I initially made was mounting my mill on a heavy duty steel indistrial bench. The problem I quickly learned was transferring harmonic vibrations. Yes my bench could support 2000# but the thick guage all metal construction was literally a tuning fork as far as vibration and noise. I added a 2X6 wood deck and that was the end of all the vibrations and noise. So it's really necessary to fab a wood base to absorb vibrations of any benchtop lathe / mill .


----------



## homebrewed (Dec 19, 2021)

Road_Clam said:


> A big mistake I initially made was mounting my mill on a heavy duty steel indistrial bench. The problem I quickly learned was transferring harmonic vibrations. Yes my bench could support 2000# but the thick guage all metal construction was literally a tuning fork as far as vibration and noise. I added a 2X6 wood deck and that was the end of all the vibrations and noise. So it's really necessary to fab a wood base to absorb vibrations of any benchtop lathe / mill .


I wouldn't have guessed that!  Thanks for the benefit of your experience.....


----------

