# Shop made insert tool holders



## ChrisAttebery (Mar 3, 2020)

Disclosure: Like a lot of you I machine parts to pay for my hobby. If I wind up making these I will probably put them on my web store and eBay.

Every time I work on my lathe I wish I had a couple more tools available. The other day I was counting up the toolholders I'd need and realized that I could probably cut that number down by making up some double ended tool insert tools. You could use a turning tool in the normal orientation and a facing tool with the toolholder turned 90 degrees. I thought I'd start with a simple right hand turning and facing holder with zero lead angle. I might add a 3 degree relief angle to this. The tool is 5.5" long so there would be 1" overhang on each end of a BXA tool holder.

Next up will be a left hand turning tool but I'm not sure what to combine it with. Maybe an insert held at an angle so that you could chamfer with it?


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 3, 2020)

I've been thinking about welding up a double ended SPG insert holder with inserts at 45 deg. for turning, facing and chamfering.


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## Janderso (Mar 3, 2020)

When you do, take some pics because I think it would be great to face and flip to chamfer. I always struggle with that one.


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 3, 2020)

Janderso said:


> When you do, take some pics because I think it would be great to face and flip to chamfer. I always struggle with that one.



After looking a little, I find that the SPG inserts are out of favor. The SCMT is happening now. I'm thinking 2 of these:


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## darkzero (Mar 3, 2020)

Janderso said:


> When you do, take some pics because I think it would be great to face and flip to chamfer. I always struggle with that one.



Look for the tools that Tom Lipton & Stefan Gotteswinter made/use. I use a similar tool but with SCMT/SCGT inserts. Can face & chamfer with the same tool, no need to change orientation. I just got me a second one last week. The same tool orientation is also available for use with SNMG inserts but I prefer using positive inserts.


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## darkzero (Mar 4, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> I find that the SPG inserts are out of favor



SPU/SPG inserts are still in production & can be found for cheap now since they have been around forever. Many milling tools that use them seem to be no longer made new though. My chamfering machine uses SPU inserts. I just bought a few packs of SPG inserts last week, name brand USA for $20 per 10.


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 4, 2020)

darkzero said:


> SPU/SPG inserts are still in production & can be found for cheap now since they have been around forever. Many milling tools that use them seem to be no longer made new though. My chamfering machine uses SPU inserts. I just bought a few packs of SPG inserts last week, name brand USA for $20 per 10.



Yes, I know they are still available. However, I just ordered 2 of the holder shown in my previous post and 10 SCMT09T308  inserts for less than $20.


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## petertha (Mar 15, 2020)

Are you milling the pocket with the angled relief to match the insert bevel? That's what was stalling me for some shanks I wanted to make. I've since found some reasonably priced tapered end mills on Ebay or Ali. I think they are used in the mold making trade & come in different flavors.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 16, 2020)

I’ve put this on the back burner for right now. Were in the middle of repainting our house so I haven’t had a lot of free time lately. I did buy a 1/4” shank 4 flute carbide tapered end mill off eBay to do the edge of the pockets though. Hopefully I’ll get back to this project soon.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Mar 17, 2020)

Do those of you that make your own tool holder harden them? What type of steel do you use?


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 18, 2020)

Here's another tool I'm considering based on some of the suggestions in this thread. This is a double ended CCGT tool. The turning side has the insert at a 40 degree lead angle for turning and chamfering. The facing side has the insert at a 0 degree lead angle. It might be better if it had a -5 degree lead so it could be used to face and turn to a journal.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 18, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Do those of you that make your own tool holder harden them? What type of steel do you use?



I'm not planning to harden mine. For the amount of use I'll get out of them I don't think it will be a problem. I might blue them to keep them from rusting. I've been debating using CRS or buying 12L14 or 1215. I'm open to input on the material choice.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 18, 2020)

For those of you playing along at home the insert screws are available from Carbide Depot:
http://www.carbidedepot.com/TS-47-10M1-P6560.aspx

They are M4x0.7 x 10mm.

I ordered a tap, drill, and 3 feet of 1045 steel from McMaster today. That will give me something to keep my mind occupied for the next couple days.


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## darkzero (Mar 18, 2020)

Chris, check out jazzd4golf on ebay. He sells a great variety of insert screws & tool holder hardware for excellent prices. All the screws I've purchased from him so far are great quality.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 18, 2020)

Chris, most likely you're doing this because you want to (and who wouldn't? I have a couple on the list too) but standard CCxT holders can turn and face in the same set up. I have a couple of center CCxT holders (SCLMN?) for beveling which work really nice, but be aware that they're limited on the ID of tubes they can bevel as the heal of the tool hits the ID of the tube. I bought a small TCxT boring bar (looks a bit like a threading tool) to do those.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 18, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Chris, check out jazzd4golf on ebay. He sells a great variety of insert screws & tool holder hardware for excellent prices. All the screws I've purchased from him so far are great quality.



Thanks for the lead darkzero. I already ordered some from Carbide Depot, but I've saved his store on eBay for next time.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 18, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> Chris, most likely you're doing this because you want to (and who wouldn't? I have a couple on the list too) but standard CCxT holders can turn and face in the same set up. I have a couple of center CCxT holders (SCLMN?) for beveling which work really nice, but be aware that they're limited on the ID of tubes they can bevel as the heal of the tool hits the ID of the tube. I bought a small TCxT boring bar (looks a bit like a threading tool) to do those.



Yes, at this point I'm doing this because I can and not because I need to. I probably should just make myself a set of CCGT toolholders RH -5 degree, RH +5 degree, 40 degree, LH +5 degree, RH -5 degree. In reality there aren't a lot of combinations you can double up.

I'm not planning to use these for ID chamfering.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 18, 2020)

being able to chamfer the OD and ID of a piece in the same op is pretty useful...


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 19, 2020)

I ran a test piece last night from some scrap HRS. It looks pretty good, but I won't know for sure until I get the tapered end mill early next week.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 19, 2020)

one trick is to layout the screw hole last. Mill the pocket as you see fit, put the insert in and lightly mark the center of the hole. Prick punch a couple of thou towards the outside of the pocket from the center mark. That will help pull the insert tightly against the sides of the pocket.


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## homebrewed (Mar 19, 2020)

Comments on the tapered endmills got me wondering about my cheap set of insert holders so I took a look at them yesterday.  The sidewalls ARE tapered but on one of them the taper doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the pocket, so the insert doesn't sit flat on the bottom.  A true case of getting what you pay for.  

I tried using one of my small files to clean it up but quickly discovered that the holders are hardened.  I have a diamond file but unfortunately it has a square profile so I can't get to the bottom of the taper.  I'll have to see if I can find something on ebay or Amazon that will work, like a small triangular diamond file. 

Anyway, it often is educational (and useful) to me to follow these discussions.  Thanks!


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 20, 2020)

*I've renamed this thread to "Shop made insert tool holders" because I think it more accurately describes where I am at this point.*


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 20, 2020)

I've wanted a better fly cutter for a while. I don't use mine often, mainly because it's pretty slow. I've thought about buying the Tormach SuperFly cutter a few times but IMHO the system and inserts are pretty overpriced. In another thread someone mentioned that they had a "Recycle cutter" that used the unused corners on CCGT inserts. I thought about making one for a couple days. I wished I hadn't gotten rid of the R8 shell mill holder that came with my old mill. Then it dawned on me. I can just make a version of the SuperFly tool to fit my Shars 2.5" R-8 fly cutter body.


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## darkzero (Mar 20, 2020)

ChrisAttebery said:


> In another thread someone mentioned that they had a "Recycle cutter" that used the unused corners on CCGT inserts.



Probably me. I love that tool. I also have a FM45 that uses the same SEH_ inserts as the Superfly as well as a few fly cutters but I use the Recycle Cutter the most.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 25, 2020)

I don't cut much steel. I'd say 99% of my projects are in aluminum. I got the 1045 steel from McMaster on Monday. It is harder than the HRS I used for my test cuts but it has a beautiful finish when it's cut. I'm still waiting on the 7 degree mill from eBay. It was supposed to be here on Monday but the seller shipped it First Class Mail so there's no telling when it will actually arrive. I also ordered a liquid bluing kit from Amazon. I'm planning to blue these up when I get them done.

Birchwood Casey Perma Blue Liquid Gun Blue Finishing kit


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 25, 2020)

great minds think alike, I've been planning on making a flycutter to use those unused CCxT insert corners for several years, since I saw Darkzero's recycle cutter actually.

I'd suggest black oxide instead, it'll provide a more durable oil retaining coating than cold blue. 10g/l of ammonium nitrate, boil for 40min and you're good


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## Cadillac (Mar 25, 2020)

ChrisAttebery said:


> I don't cut much steel. I'd say 99% of my projects are in aluminum. I got the 1045 steel from McMaster on Monday. It is harder than the HRS I used for my test cuts but it has a beautiful finish when it's cut. I'm still waiting on the 7 degree mill from eBay. It was supposed to be here on Monday but the seller shipped it First Class Mail so there's no telling when it will actually arrive. I also ordered a liquid bluing kit from Amazon. I'm planning to blue these up when I get them done.
> 
> Birchwood Casey Perma Blue Liquid Gun Blue Finishing kit


From my experience the perma blue isn’t as good as I would have thought. I had bought this g96 gun blue awhile back which is a gel type and the finish was excellent. One coat gives a nice deep black oxide finish followed up with a light oil. Almost the same finish as what you’d get from a professional coating. 


I recently bought the Casey perma blue just to see what else was out there. I have a gun I want to “blue” the hardware on and wasn’t impressed at all. I polished the pieces to be done, cleaned and coated. Found the coating wasn’t deep at all would wipe right off with paper towel and oil. Tried three coats and didn’t get any deeper or better results. Luckily was only 12 bucks but you live and learn. Highly recommend the g96 great product.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 26, 2020)

Thanks for the review Cadillac. I ordered a bottle to try out. I guess I'll return the Casey kit.


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## Cadillac (Mar 26, 2020)

Here’s a picture to give visual of what I was saying about the products.



The strap clamps were all done with the g96. No real prep other than degreasing and just one coat with g96 then a light oil. In the second pic the smaller piece was left over from something that was surface ground and had a mirror like finish. Thought it would have enhanced the finish. It got three coats of the Casey blue. Once each coat was applied they said to do a 0000 steel wool buff and keep applying to desired color. Well I steel wooled once and it took the finish off to the point it didn’t even look like I did anything. So I tried giving a coat let dry then rinsed and each time the finish would nearly all come off. The only thing I kind of liked was it was a more blue color than black but blotchy . My goal was to “blue” hardware which I am now looking into the old way with salts and heat. I’ll post pics when I  get my desired look. Have a good one.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 26, 2020)

Thanks Cadillac. That is really helpful.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 27, 2020)

I finally got fed up waiting for the 7 degree end mill to show up yesterday. I decided to try using the 3D steep wall contour function in Fusion 360 to accomplish that cut. I used a .008" DOC which translates to roughly .001" step over per pass. It worked great and you can't tell that it was done with a square end mill. I got all four tools that I designed completed.

The first picture is right off the mill. I tapped the hole with my Tapmatic on my drill press.

The second picture is all of the tools, LH -5 degree, 40 degree, RH -5 degree, flycutter.

The last picture is of a piece of 6061-T6 that I cut with the fly cutter. I wound up using 2000 RPM, 10 IPM and .010" DOC. The finish was mirror like. I had a hard time getting a picture of the surface. I'm sure the tool can handle more, but it isn't balanced and anything over 2000 RPM made the machine vibrate more than I was comfortable with. I'd really like to make a balanced cutter head now.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 27, 2020)

those look absolutely fabulous Chris, nice job! Next up, some Black Oxide treatment and you'll be done


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## Suzuki4evr (Mar 27, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Do those of you that make your own tool holder harden them? What type of steel do you use?


No need for hardening in my opinion, but can't hurt. I've used 4140 for boring bars and BMS for external holders with great success. My 2 cents.

Michael


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 28, 2020)

I kept thinking that it would be nice to have an R8 fly cutter that I could run at higher RPMs. I dug around in my tool cabinet and found a NIP 3/4" end mill holder that I got with a set years ago. The end mill holder body was 1.75" OD, 2.375" long and .500 thick. There was plenty of meat there to machine a fly cutter out of. I started by turning the body down to 1.25" long. The material was hard (~35RC) so it took about 45 minutes at 115 RPM, .050" DOC and .003" IPT on my 13x40 lathe. Then I modeled the tool holder in Fusion 360. I designed it with two identical legs so that it should be inherently balanced. I machined the legs on my CNC converted G0704. I only had a couple 3/8" 2 flute carbide end mills on hand so it took roughly 1.75 hours on the mill at 2150 RPM, .375" DOC and .010" WOC and 6.5 IPM (.0015"" IPT). Even at these relatively light parameters the machine was chattering along. It would have been nice to have a couple 3/8" 4 flute end mills on hand. I'll have to add them to my shopping list.

Anyway here's where I'm at. The finish isn't as bad as it looks. It's smooth to the touch:


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## Suzuki4evr (Mar 28, 2020)

ChrisAttebery said:


> I kept thinking that it would be nice to have an R8 fly cutter that I could run at higher RPMs. I dug around in my tool cabinet and found a NIP 3/4" end mill holder that I got with a set years ago. The end mill holder body was 1.75" OD, 2.375" long and .500 thick. There was plenty of meat there to machine a fly cutter out of. I started by turning the body down to 1.25" long. The material was hard (~35RC) so it took about 45 minutes at 115 RPM, .050" DOC and .003" IPT on my 13x40 lathe. Then I modeled the tool holder in Fusion 360. I designed it with two identical legs so that it should be inherently balanced. I machined the legs on my CNC converted G0704. I only had a couple 3/8" 2 flute carbide end mills on hand so it took roughly 1.75 hours on the mill at 2150 RPM, .375" DOC and .010" WOC and 6.5 IPM (.0015"" IPT). Even at these relatively light parameters the machine was chattering along. It would have been nice to have a couple 3/8" 4 flute end mills on hand. I'll have to add them to my shopping list.
> 
> Anyway here's where I'm at. The finish isn't as bad as it looks. It's smooth to the touch:
> 
> ...


Nice job so far.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 28, 2020)

I finished the fly cutter this afternoon. The pocket took 8 minutes to machine. Afterward I took a test cut in 6061-T6 at 4500 RPM, .010” DOC, and 22.5 IPM.


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## ChrisAttebery (Mar 29, 2020)

I received the G96 Gun Blue from Amazon today. I immediately ran to the garage to try it out. It was very easy to use and I'm really happy with the results.


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## Suzuki4evr (Mar 30, 2020)

ChrisAttebery said:


> I received the G96 Gun Blue from Amazon today. I immediately ran to the garage to try it out. It was very easy to use and I'm really happy with the results.


O come on be honest......you bought those. No Chris that looks gr8. It really looks store bought. Nice


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## aliva (Mar 30, 2020)

I've used Caswells black oxide with great results


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 4, 2020)

I finally received the 2 SSDCN tools I ordered so long ago. I cut them to length, sanded and chamfered the ends, then TIG welded them together using 309 S/S to avoid cracking.




I filed the welds flush and applied some spray-on "black oxide" for the photo shoot.






There was a slight difference in height for reasons I did not bother to investigate. I set it so the tool that would be used for facing was on center, leaving the other 5 or 10 thou below.


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## ChrisAttebery (Apr 13, 2020)

I find myself switching between steel and aluminum projects a lot lately. That means swapping inserts almost every project. So over the weekend I machined another set of the CCGT tool holders. I also ordered a few more BXA tool holders. This stuff is addicting. 

The 1.5” fly cutter I machined has become one of my most used tools on the mill. I love the finish it leaves on my projects.


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