# Buying A Torch For Silver Soldering - Advise Needed



## Nogoingback

I'm planning on doing some silver soldering on smallish assemblies in the future and need a torch.  I understand that Map-Pro torches can be used for this.  Any general advise, and recommndation on torches?


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## Ulma Doctor

I often use MAAP , Acetylene-Air torches, and Oxy-Acetylene for silver and bronze brazing.

the MAAP is vey convenient, the cylinders are small.
MAAP gas is hot enough for brazing most small items or thin cross-sections ( about 2900°C)
Air- Acetylene torches burn slightly cooler than the MAAP (about 2200°C) and is also suitable for sweating pipe or brazing
but when you really need some heat, get the Oxy-Acetylene rig ready  (3000 to 3500 °C)

i have a few different nozzles on propane and MAAP cylinders, 
i prefer the turbo torch.


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## Aaron_W

I've got a small Bernzmatic micro torch that uses butane. I use it to solder brass parts, usually using lead free solder, which many call silver solder but I think technically that is a different type of solder with a much higher silver content.

The micro torch works well for me, but of course "small" is subjective, my small is brass wire up to about 1/8" brass rod and larger brass tubing.


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## mikey

A lot depends on the type of silver solder you plan to use. If you use soft solder with a low melting temp, I suggest you look at the Bernzomatic TS8000. This torch puts out a 3600 degree flame that will handle soft solder without problems and may get the work hot enough for harder solders if the work is small enough. For larger work and the higher silver content solders, I would go with a Meco Midget O/A torch. 

I own and use both of these torches so I know they will work. I use the TS8000 to heat treat smaller pieces of O-1 steel and it puts out a lot of heat for a propane torch.


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## Nogoingback

I actually have a Turbo torch that I bought for propane but never realized it was suitable for MPS.  Now I
do, so thank you for saving me from going out and buying another torch. . I know oxy- acetylene is best,
but  the idea here was to do small jobs wiith silver solder to avoid the
cost of an O-A rig.


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## Nogoingback

mikey said:


> A lot depends on the type of silver solder you plan to use. If you use soft solder with a low melting temp, I suggest you look at the Bernzomatic TS8000. This torch puts out a 3600 degree flame that will handle soft solder without problems and may get the work hot enough for harder solders if the work is small enough. For larger work and the higher silver content solders, I would go with a Meco Midget O/A torch.
> 
> I own and use both of these torches so I know they will work. I use the TS8000 to heat treat smaller pieces of O-1 steel and it puts out a lot of heat for a propane torch.



 I have been looking a bit at types of solder and came across some videos
 for Muggyweld SSF-6 which looks versitile and easy to use.  What I want to do is find out just what kinds of jobs are possible with a simple, low cost torch and a can of gas.  Should be a bit of a learning curve here, but that's a good 
thing.  I'll take a closer look at what temps these torches are capable of.  As Ulma Doctor just pointed out, I actually have a torch I can start with, but I'll compare it to your suggestions.


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## francist

If you stack a small refractory corner out of a few fire bricks it will greatly increase your capacity. I can use ordinary propane and Bernzomatic torch with Harris Safety-Silv 45 brazing filler which needs upwards of 1225F provided the parts are small and I use a corner.

-frank


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## Nogoingback

francist said:


> If you stack a small refractory corner out of a few fire bricks it will greatly increase your capacity. I can use ordinary propane and Bernzomatic torch with Harris Safety-Silv 45 brazing filler which needs upwards of 1225F provided the parts are small and I use a corner.
> 
> -frank



Great idea on the bricks. I'll run some down.  I've got the torch and both propane and MAP-PRO gas, so
all I need is some solder and I can start to play with this.


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## Flyinfool

Silver soldering is a low temperature silver bearing solder, Typically less that 10% silver and solders at temperatures below 840°F (450°C).
Silver brazing is a higher temp process using a silver ally that is much higher in silver content and brazes at temperatures above 840°F (450°C).
Silver brazing is stronger than silver soldering.
Silver soldering is stronger than soft soldering.

Number 1 question that makes a huge difference, Are you talking about silver soldering or silver brazing?
Number 2 question  What solder/brazing alloy do you want to use?

These are the 2 big questions as to the type of torch you will need.
Next is the size of the parts, this will determine the size of torch you will need.


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## NortonDommi

I am going to recommend a book such as 'Soldering and Brazing' by Tubal Cain. ISBN: 9780852428450 Book 9 in the Workshop Practice series.  A lot of very useful information in an easy to read format.


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## Saguaro Slim

Nogoingback said:


> Great idea on the bricks. I'll run some down.  I've got the torch and both propane and MAP-PRO gas, so
> all I need is some solder and I can start to play with this.


I bought firebrick from a local masonry supply for far less money than the big box stores. Worth a look!


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## Ulma Doctor

I got my fire brick from tractor supply for $2.50 a brick a couple years ago


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## Nogoingback

Flyinfool said:


> Silver soldering is a low temperature silver bearing solder, Typically less that 10% silver and solders at temperatures below 840°F (450°C).
> Silver brazing is a higher temp process using a silver ally that is much higher in silver content and brazes at temperatures above 840°F (450°C).
> Silver brazing is stronger than silver soldering.
> Silver soldering is stronger than soft soldering.
> 
> Number 1 question that makes a huge difference, Are you talking about silver soldering or silver brazing?
> Number 2 question  What solder/brazing alloy do you want to use?
> 
> These are the 2 big questions as to the type of torch you will need.
> Next is the size of the parts, this will determine the size of torch you will need.



I'm actually thinking silver brazing.  Although I have some projects in mind, initially I'd like to practice with shop scraps: that will give me a better idea what is possible with the torch I have.  As I gain some experience I'll have a better idea
about whether I'll need to upgrade to a different torch.


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## Downunder Bob

I find Bernzomatic and Mapp gas way too expensive, I mainly use BBQ gas, I have large and small burners for BBQ gas, for smaller jobs with silver solder and if I need more heat then i'll use Oxy Acetylene.


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## Flyinfool

Always best to start with what you have. 
I use either a big soldering iron or a propane torch for silver soldering and Oxy/Act for all types of brazing. I never tried MAPP since I don't have one.


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## Nogoingback

I looked up specs for propane and Map-Pro, and Map-Pro has a slightly higher flame temp.  As Downunder Bob
pointed out it's more expensive, but with experience I may find I can save it for jobs where extra heat is needed.
I also learned that true MAPP is no longer produced: Map-Pro is it's replacement.

I also looked up the specs for Harris Safety Silv suggested by francist and the SSF-6.  The SSF-6 has a higher silver content but an almost 200 degree lower melting point which may be useful with my torch, so I plan on ordering some.


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## kd4gij

For little stuff I picked up a Smith little torch with disposable tank regulators at a flea market for $30.00. Amazon has a copy for cheap.






						Amazon.com: Jewelry Repairing Torch Mini Gas Torch Micro Torch Oxygen Acetylene Welding Torch with 5 Tips (Jewelry Repairing Torch): Home Improvement
					

Amazon.com: Jewelry Repairing Torch Mini Gas Torch Micro Torch Oxygen Acetylene Welding Torch with 5 Tips (Jewelry Repairing Torch): Home Improvement



					www.amazon.com


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## Ken from ontario

kd4gij said:


> For little stuff I picked up *a Smith little torch with disposable tank regulators at a flea market for $30.00*. Amazon has a copy for cheap.


I think that's a fantastic deal you got for $30, the genuine Smith (made in USA) is not cheap, what is available nowadays on Amazon or Ebay, Ali Expres (as you noted) is a pathetic copy of the original and the funny thing is many buyers don't even know they're buying a fake and probably Dangerous torch.


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## pontiac428

NortonDommi said:


> I am going to recommend a book such as 'Soldering and Brazing' by Tubal Cain. ISBN: 9780852428450 Book 9 in the Workshop Practice series.  A lot of very useful information in an easy to read format.


We have this book in our library for premium H-M members:








						09 - Soldering and Brazing.pdf
					

Imported files from vBulletin files system.




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## ericc

What size are you interested in? This will influence the choice of heat source.


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## ericc

Here's a 3/8" boring tool I just made with a propane torch.


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## Nogoingback

ericc said:


> What size are you interested in? This will influence the choice of heat source.



I assume this question is for me.  Like I said, my initial goal is to learn a new skill.  Until I gain some knowlege
about what I can or cannot accomplish with that skill, it's hard to know what I'll be doing with it, even though I have some projects in mind initially.  It's like when I got my first lathe: If you had asked what I planned on doing with it, I would have
had no answer for you.  I just wanted to learn something new and it looked interesting.  I've made lots of parts on my lathes since then, but I probably couldn't have anticipated any of them. So, we'll see.


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## wrmiller

Slight OT here, but what torch would be recommended for Silvaloy 355 gunsmithing solder (_SPECS: Melts at 1145_°_ F., flows at 1205_°_ F. 56% silver.). Attaching 0.300" carbon or stainless to a thinner pistol frame._


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## pontiac428

If you were putting a sight on a barrel, I would recommend oxy acetylene and a small 0 or 00 tip.  If you mean that you will be laminating the sides of the skinny frame, that's a job for a furnace.  The heat required for that solder will anneal your parts.


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## petertha

Ulma Doctor said:


> MAAP gas is hot enough for brazing most small items or thin cross-sections ( about 2900°C)
> Air- Acetylene torches burn slightly cooler than the MAAP (about 2200°C)



I have been eyeing this Smith Acetylene-Air torch for similar applications - silver soldering & general heating to displace multiple MAAP bottles that are not exactly cheap either. The medium sized acetylene tank is a bit more convenient to my shop. When I called my local welding shop they rent/sell them quite a bit to HVAC & plumbers who need something a bit more portable. 

Anyways my question. They quote 2632 degC so 400-ish higher than what you referenced. Is this one of those 'it depends' type specs? 








						Smith® Silver Smith™ Acetylene and Air Torch Kit without Tank - RioGrande
					





					www.riogrande.com
				




The other system I hear a lot about in model engineering forums, maybe more Euro orientated, is Sievert propane systems. The BBQ cylinder & fillup is pretty convenient. The temps seem to range by burner type, I see reference between 400-720C





						Sievert #3486 Pro 86 Single Valve Gas Torch Handle
					

Sievert #3486-47, Pro 86 Single Valve Gas Torch Handle. Provides flame adjustement with high quality construction. Inlet is LH 9/16 inch male thread. Price/Each.



					www.bestmaterials.com
				



many nozzles available


			https://www.bestmaterials.com/PDF_Files/Sievert-Burner-Information.pdf


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## Ulma Doctor

petertha said:


> Anyways my question. They quote 2632 degC so 400-ish higher than what you referenced. Is this one of those 'it depends' type specs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smith® Silver Smith™ Acetylene and Air Torch Kit without Tank - RioGrande
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.riogrande.com


the torches you have referenced may mix the air/acetylene better to achieve the higher temperature.
the smaller nozzle tip may help in that regard as well


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## Tim9

I just purchased a Smith Little Torch. I’m inclined to think it’s a Asian knock off because even though the box says Smith Little Torch, nowhere does it say made in USA. But it was only 30.00 on EBay .  FWIW... USA sellers now have them for 20.00 
That said... the tips were not precision drilled. So I cleaned up the tips using a tip cleaner,.... the ones with all the different gauge wire file/ reamers.
And then I went to hook it up to the tote tanks.. my old regulator leaked. So I purchased the SAU regulator set. I love this little torch. Awesome ! For Silver Brazing it’s the cats meow. I was having trouble brazing small items with my Miller 100 series rig. But this little torch is just fantastic for small items.


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## Nogoingback

First Attempts:

I went ahead and bought some Muggyweld SSF-6 and gave it a try this evening.  My first try was an utter failure, so I went
back and reviewed the videos from Muggyweld.  This is my second attempt, which I think is satisfactory, even though a bit
untidy.  I probably used more rod than needed, but it left a fillet that won't hurt anything. I did this with propane.




I bought the firebrick from High Temp, Inc. in Portland: they manufacture them and will sell small quantities to hobbyists.  These are high
temp bricks (3000 deg.) and cost a bit more than 5 bucks a piece.  Tractor supply charges more than $2.50 now.


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## Flyinfool

Looks good to me.


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## Nogoingback

Thanks!


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## Nogoingback

2nd Attempt:

Tonight I brazed a pin into a 1/4" steel plate as a test for a project: I'm fabricating a pin spanner that will hold my
collet chuck while I tighten the collets.  This was probably more difficult than the real thing since the spanner will have
less mass around the pin.  The first time I tried was a fail: didn't get the plate hot enough and the rod didn't flow
around the pin properly.  The second time (below) worked fine.  Preheated the parts to 450 degrees in the toaster oven and
then made sure the parts were hot enough before flowing the rod in.  I used Map-pro for this one.  Should be ready
for the spanner next.


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## Aaron_W

Curse you, now I have that little Smith torch on my want list...  

It is well down the list, but it is there.


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## ACHiPo

Nogoingback said:


> First Attempts:
> 
> I went ahead and bought some Muggyweld SSF-6 and gave it a try this evening.  My first try was an utter failure, so I went
> back and reviewed the videos from Muggyweld.  This is my second attempt, which I think is satisfactory, even though a bit
> untidy.  I probably used more rod than needed, but it left a fillet that won't hurt anything. I did this with propane.
> 
> View attachment 344659
> 
> 
> I bought the firebrick from High Temp, Inc. in Portland: they manufacture them and will sell small quantities to hobbyists.  These are high
> temp bricks (3000 deg.) and cost a bit more than 5 bucks a piece.  Tractor supply charges more than $2.50 now.


Here I find myself down another rabbit hole...

I silver brazed a lugged bike frame (Reynolds 531 double-butted chrome moly tubing and Italian lugs) with OxyAcetylene many (like 40) years ago in my 'yout'.  Now I find myself wanting to build a model engine requiring silver brazing (maybe soldering would be ok?) without an OA rig and without an inclination to have one more big item in my shop that I only use periodically, so I'm considering alternatives.

1.  Mini OA set.  About $300 for a Victor or Harris set up.  How long do the tanks last?
2.  HOH set.  Never knew about this before last night--turns out it was the first gas welding/brazing heat source.  Uses DI water and KOH and electricity to generate hydrogen and oxygen.  About the same price as a mini OA set. 








						Acrylic Flame Polisher Oxygen-hydrogen Generator Water Welder Polishing Machine
					

95L flame polishing machine HHO welder from U.S. Solid




					ussolid.com
				



3.  MAP gas.  I already have a Bernzomatic TS4000 turbo torch and MAP/Pro gas.  


			https://www.lowes.com/pd/BernzOmatic-Trigger-Start-Torch-Kit-Handheld-Head/50126397?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-plb-_-google-_-lia-_-142-_-plumbingconnectionsandsupport-_-50126397-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=Cj0KCQiAzsz-BRCCARIsANotFgPTQqrp2NOXF-baWwbSlatZrgn-26JR8T1nmqQVFH889XbzbhT61RoaAqGGEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
		


Mebbe I should just pick up some Harris Safety-silv and Stay-silv and give it a go?








						Harris Safety-Silv 56 Brazing Kit 56KPOP
					

Buy Harris Safety-Silv 56 Brazing Kit 56KPOP today at the lowest prices anywhere. Fast, free shipping. Get yours now!




					www.harrisweldingsupplies.com
				




Seems like with a fire brick "furnace" the torch might produce enough energy to work for hard silver brazing?  By the way, who knew there were a bunch of different kinds of firebrick?  Lightweight is much less conductive that hard brick, but fragile.  Yet another rabbit hole.

Curiouser and curiouser!


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## Flyinfool

Oh yea!
We have rabbit holes everywhere on this site.......


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