# Oil Seal For The Colchester



## Kroll

Good afternoon guys,well I have ran into another hurdle today on my 13" 1965 Colchester lathe.I have couple other post in this section where I talk about some of the issues such as the limit switch.Just the other day I over come that problem with the help of some members here.So I move on to my next hurdle which is oil leaking from a sealed bearing but coming from the spindle head.Not know what was behind that bearing I called Clausing with the part #'s from my manual thinking that all I needed was the oil seal since its leaking Right??? Well they don't have those anymore but I ask if they could email me a diagram with specs so that maybe I could find one that would fit.Haven't heard back yet so though I would take this alittle futher.So today I pulled that section which all it took was removing the pulley(which was cover w/oil) then 3 bolts that section just pulled out.Well with my manual in front of me I took apart that section one piece at a time which before I thought it was  perfect when I spin the shaft by hand(so smooth)but there is a roller bearing missing and what I thought was the oil seal is what I also thought was just a plain bearing and it was just a plain bearing with Japan on it.So yrs ago someone replace the  oil seal since maybe it was not available back then but done away with the roller bearing since they went back with just a plain seal bearing.And I bit it still leak back then.So here some pics of my problem.Hoping maybe someone someplace either here in the states or UK will have an answer for a fix.To me this is earth shaking problem---Help kroll


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## Kroll

Guys I forgot to say that I did find out that the oil seal is a Weston WB16911037 R21 I did send Weston and email which is in the UK to see if they have it in stock and if they would sell to an individual,but that's a long shot.Guys any help,suggestions,ideals on how I can improvise?Help and thanks----kroll


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## Brain Coral

Hi Carroll,

 I would think that if you brought  the shaft,  bearing receiver, and your schematics into a reputable bearing supplier, they should be able to fit you up with a suitable replacement. There's got to be something out there that will suit the purpose.

Brian


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## Ulma Doctor

oil seals are made in (most) any size imaginable from many manufacturers.
if you can ascertain the seals inside diameter (shaft diameter), it's outside diameter, and it's thickness, you can order it form most any bearing or seal supplier.
don't get hung up on the name brand, many manufacturers will make similar seals with similar specifications.
the only other decisions you may need to make would be if the seal is single or double lipped and whether it is a box seal or not.


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## Ulma Doctor

at the risk of sounding obtuse, i'd consider reinstating the caged needle bearings too.
they can be obtained by getting an ID, OD, and Length.
INA makes loads of needle bearings
McGill also makes heavy duty caged needles as well


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## Kroll

Thanks guys for the ideals which not far from me is Houston Bearings.My problem is that the bearing picture is not the original design and there is no oil seal at all,which all this was change out by previous owner.Where the bearing is in  the pic is where the oil seal should be and behind that seal there should have been a bronze bushing or roller bearing.But the shaft looks like someone may have tried to turn different OD which is where the bushing or bearing should be.I did talk with Clausing several times which they recommend that I go back with bronze bushing and the oil seal.To do that I need to turn the s haft so that nice smooth and round and a consistent OD to match the oil seal.Which I think it means that I need to chuck it up perfectly so that its true with the back bearing,I don't think I have the skills for that.So I have two choices I think,1st being the bushing,oil seal,turning OD of the shaft and bore out the bushing to match the shaft or go back with just the sealed bearing which had some loc-tite at the edges to help seal and as one person said that I need to drop the oil level down to half way in the site glass.Here's some pics that Clausing sent me that my lathe should have been like.


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## Kroll

Which brings me to my next question,Cast or 841? http://www.bronzebushings.com/ If I go the bushing route than I will need to bore the bushing out providing that  I turn the OD on the shaft.-----Guys I believe this is my last hurdle cause everything seems to check out OK,all power feeds work but haven't tried threading---kroll


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## Brain Coral

Hi Carroll,

Ok, I don't quite have a handle on exactly what has been altered by someone else. We are only concerned with the bearing receiver and the shaft.  Does the shaft appear to have been cut down?  In addition, does the bearing receiver appear to have been bored out or altered ? The bearing that you are after is a flanged bearing that also has an oil seal, if I am reading the parts list and parts  diagram correctly. ....  So, are you missing the bushing as well .... part #5042?

From your diagram, there is a snap ring on both sides of the bearing housing, keeping the shaft from moving horizontally. I assume that the part #5037 is also a bearing ? ... and is contained between the snap rings...

Sorry for all of the questions... just trying to get my head around what you are up against....

Brian


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## wa5cab

Another possible solution would be to search out someone parting out a machine and acquire the original unmodified parts to put it all back to original.  That's actually what I would do.


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## Kroll

Oh no Brian please do ask questions,the bearing receiver has been alter from the old oil seal to the sealed bearing.On the inside you can see and feel a ridge where it was bored out.Has the shaft been alter also,well I really don't know but I think that where the shaft is black or looks like it was heated at the factor I believe its original.If the shaft has never been alter then this bearing housing has never had a bushing or a roller bearing before.There is a snap ring that keeps the big bearing and shaft in place on the oil side of the head but there is no place for a snap ring on the other side.Strange,you know I have look at afew manuals on the net and there are little changes,such as one with bushings and another with roller bearings and the missing snap ring.Anyway I did not know what kind of bearing that I needed until now,"Flange Bearing" So tomorrow or Tuesday I think I an going to run down to Houston Bearing with parts in hand and see what can come up with to make this work.
Robert I did give that a try,look on ebay here and in the UK but nothing.So I need a flange bearing with an oil seal?
Guys thanks for sticking with me on this, and not giving up.If any thoughts or ideals please let me know,will see what Houston Bearing can come up with----kroll


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## Kroll

Brian could you give an example what your talking about.Just want to have as much info as possible before going to bearing house


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## Brain Coral

Ok, so the shaft going through the bearing housing is slightly smaller than the ID of the housing, but does not actually rely on the bearing housing as a bearing ? So, that must mean that you require an inboard bearing and an outboard bearing to keep the shaft in alignment. So, the inboard bearing provides the alignment in the oil bath side of the bearing housing and the outboard bearing provides the alignment on the outboard side of the bearing housing, as well as providing the oil seal ?

If what I am seeing is correct, the fact that the bore of the bearing receiver has been altered can easily be overcome, by either boring and re-bushing to original size, or boring to the next available size to suit the bearings available.

You can get past this Carroll.... it's all just parts that have been made by humans.... long before CNC.... 

Brian


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## Brain Coral

Sorry Carroll, but I am simply cross-referencing your parts diagram with mine. They are very similar, but not quite the same. I am assuming that a flanged bearing would provide the oil seal. Don't be hasty in ordering any bearings. Just go in with what you have and let them figure out what you need. Sometimes less information is better. It is less likely to lead in a direction that is dictated by laziness.... I meant on their part, not yours...     . Don't worry, you'll get this figured out. You've come a long way with your wonderful restoration of your lathe. Just another hurdle to the finish line.

Brian


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## Kroll

Brian you describe it perfectly.Tomorrow I am going to go to Houston Bearing and see if one of the counter guys can come up with something that is close fit.I believe that I can do alittle machining to get the oil seal to fit where it use to be.


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## Ulma Doctor

i hope you get what you need!


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## Kroll

Guys after bout 40 min drive to Houston Bearing with parts in hand,all I came away with is oil seal and a decimal chart which is nice.The guys did take some measurements and said that my shaft is metric,the bearing is a sealed bearing but only for dust,moisture but not 100% for oil.So going to plan B now,I had to place an order with McMaster-Carr so I order another metric bearing of the same size,order bronze oilite sleeve bushing that I can bore it out to match the shaft.But I am looking into needle roller bearing to see if I can find one that will fit.And I also order couple different sizes oil seals that fit the shaft but will need to do some machining to the bearing housing for the oil seal to fit it.I wish I could explain this alittle better that we would all have a better understanding.Thanks to Brian's positive comments I do feel better about this and feel I can fix this putting it back the way it was one step at a time. I did post question about sleeve vs roller in another section,but I think that I stand a better chance with bushing.Thanks guys---kroll


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## amuller

I feel dumb but can't understand the discussion very well.  Are you trying to decide between a needle bearing and a bushing?  If so, the needle bearings is fussier about the hardness and surface finish of the shaft running in it.  Most likely either could carry the load if the fits and finishes are suitable.  Seems to me you would want a double lipped seal on the outside with the main lip facing in to retain the oil and the secondary one facing out to keep dirt and dust out.  I agree that a typical sealed bearing is intended to retain grease in the bearing but should not be counted on to retain oil in a gearbox.   Maybe you need a bearing or bushing with the correct ID and OD, and a separate seal carrier?  Does the setup have to control endwise movement of the shaft?   Sorry if I'm being dense here...


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## Kroll

That is something that I did not know or consider was that rollers like harder material.I am only guessing that I may be able to find a roller,but that's off the table now.So bronze bushing it is.No sir please do ask questions,I am learning as I go.I am out of my comfort zone,the end play is done away with using a snap ring that holds all against a shoulder.----kroll


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## Ulma Doctor

not to throw too much information into the situation...
there are caged roller bearings that utilize a race that is shrunk/ pressed upon the shaft, the bearing unit is encased in an outer race.
the shaft doesn't need a polished finished for the race to provide it's function,
an anaerobic locking agent (locktite,etc) is often used to secure the race to the shaft for the ones that aren't pressed /shrunk.

here's an example of the bearings


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## Kroll

I like that,for that not so perfect shaft.I will add that to my options and see if I can find one that fit or comes close to fitting the shaft.Thanks Mike for the pic which is a big help for me to understand----kroll


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## Str8jacket

Hi Kroll. In my thread about the harmonic vibration in my lathe i have the exact same problem with oil leak on the input shaft and a failed bushing on the pulley end of the shaft. 
I ended up buying 2 sets of needle rollers with the press fit inner race. I machined out the housing to take the bigger OD of the outer race and had to turn the shaft down for the inner race slightly. The sleeves get over the hardened shaft issue, and from memory it was very soft for a shaft any way. I speedy sleeved it for the seal.

Come out very smooth running. After lots of searching for equivalent parts it was easier to just make modern bearings fit. 

I can see it i can find the bearing numbers, although yours is a smaller machine, there are so many differences among the same models over the years i dont think any parts manual is accurate.


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## TommyD

In my younger life I made bearing seals for almost every major bearing manufacturer in the world. That seal looks like one we made by the hundreds of thousands while I was there. Many times I made one off seals, the steel insert, the mold cavity and molded it up, sometimes for friends and many times as a demo as to what the customer wanted. Unfortunately the shop fell victim to the exodus of manufacturing in my State as well as our country or I'd have given them a call to see what they had kicking around.


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## Kroll

Thanks for the offer Tommy or Bob(LOL),Ben I wish I had the skills to do mine the way you did yours but I am a beginner,my little Atlas is not dead on.How did you chuck up your shaft to turn it down,I could not figure out how to get the gear off but I do see a threaded hole on that end of the shaft.I chuck my shaft up with the gear in place using a 4 jaw chuck and got it pretty dang close but not perfect.I believe it has to be perfect for it to line up with the bearing that's next to the snap ring.Anyway I did  bore out the bushing to fit the shaft and the OD of the bushing will fit the housing for the shaft.I need to make a ring to fit an oil seal which at one time it was bored out for that bearing,what do you think about this oil seal?  http://www.mcmaster.com/#1199n17/=11o2jj6 If you had some pics would love to see them,but I got a pretty good picture of what you did.I wish I could figure out how to get that gear off just so I could chuck it up better.Thanks guys for posting---kroll
Disregard that oil seal its over 2"OD going to the 40mm


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## Brain Coral

Hello Carroll 

Maybe the gear and shaft are all one part? If you can't get the gear off to turn down the shaft, maybe there's a way for you to turn it between centers. For the center at the headstock end, just use your 3-jaw chuck and cut a 60° taper on a piece of cold rolled. Now this center will be running true. The threaded hole will be your center hole. Next devise a way of making a makeshift "dog" that will power the shaft from the gear against one of the chuck jaws, with protection for the teeth, of course. If your tailstock is accurately set side to side, you should have the shaft running very true.

Brian


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## Kroll

Well I be,dang that is awesome.That is perfect and dead on,I had to read it a few times before I understand it but now I think I dnce I get started it will become clear,but may have a question along the way.


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## Brain Coral

Carroll, I am also assuming that there is an existing center hole in the shaft, opposite the threaded hole.


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## Kroll

Brian there is,and I went through my tailstock adjusting it to get it as perfect as possible.I am so excited again thanks to your ideal on how to get my shaft lined up for turning the OD.I'm slow but going to post some pics as I go.This is kinda a first for me having to turn something that has to fit.All smiles here


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## Brain Coral

Glad to hear it. I assume that you understand that even if your 3-jaw chuck is not concentric, once you turn a 60° point on a piece of round stock, that point will be perfectly concentric to the headstock of the lathe. Adjust your compound to make the 60° point on the stock. You cannot remove the piece from the lathe (chuck) until you are done turning to size, or you will lose some of the accuracy of the set-up. If you are not certain that you will be able to control your cuts to a point that you might remove too much material on your final cut, leave a half thou or so and use strips of fine emery cloth to get the final size and finish. Be very careful using the sandpaper, though. Lots of guys have been severely injured by improper use of sandpaper to polish. I can't stress that enough....

Brian


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## Kroll

Good morning,well till you explain it I did not.But I do now so I was worrying over that cause I kinda knew that my chuck is not concentric.I am so glad that you posted this,I had do ideal how to handle that which trying to use my 4 jaw chuck showed that (LOL).What I am repairing I feel it needs to be dead on so that the vibration is keep to as low as possible.I like your ideal of leaving 1/2thou cause I find that my skills just are not there to control to a final finish.So the sandpaper is what I will use,I have use sandpaper on my wood lathe so those type of possible problems are on my mind.Going to take me awhile to over come this,I've order extra bushings and couple oil seals.Which going to turn this into  a project by itself which is a major project for me.


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## TommyD

Color the shaft with magic marker between the two jaws under the manf. badge on the chuckface. This will enable you to put the shaft back in the same position IF you take it out for any reason.


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## Brain Coral

Good morning, Carroll 

Where you have a wood lathe, I suggest that you make a driving dog out of wood to drive the shaft. Maybe glue two layers of 3/4" plywood together, bore it out close to the OD of the gear, split it down the middle and then contour the outside so that you can run a couple of bolts through each side to act as a clamp onto the gear. The drill for a bolt at right angles to the clamp to act as a driver against one of the chuck jaws.

Here's a crude drawing to show what I mean...




I think this method would be kinder to the teeth on the gear and provide enough drive to do your cutting, as long as you take light cuts.

Brian


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## Brain Coral

I just realized that the above post could be misunderstood to use the wood lathe to do the turning and cutting of the shaft. Just to bore the wooden part, of course...


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## Kroll

That sure would help make things easier but I hate to say that I sold that lathe to help finance my new hobby metal turning and repair ha.This is so much more expensive even after buying cheaper tools and tooling.But no regrats,happy camper.Pics coming today I hope----kroll


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## Kroll

Good afternoon guys,well I though that I would pass along todays success story but won't bore you with my failures last couple afternoons.Repairing my oil leak on the Colchester lathe is a project for me cause I never really had to turn something to fit another part.As I was holding this simple ring looking at it,it took up I would say 9" of round stock.Its only maybe 3/4 thick which also had alot of hrs into making it but I have to say that at this moment I'm happy cause it fit.Which also puts me closer to finishing up on the lathe.This ring is made for holding an oil seal that was removed yrs ago and the opening increase to except a bearing that leak the oil for the headstock.I still have a ways to go,waiting on another bronze bushing and thanks to Brian and others giving me information on how to turn the shaft so that it is concentric.So step #1 is done,moving on to step#2 which is the shaft just for turning a clean up making sure all is perfect.Sorry for the pics and in no order.Thanks guys for responding to my help wanted ad---kroll


All I need to do now is use the parting tool which makes me nervous


Oil seal,checking the fit


This is what the ring/seal will fit in


Ring installed which has a shoulder for the oil seal to rest against which plan to add couple drops of loctite


Step #1 I say is complete,thanks for the help


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## Brain Coral

Well done Carroll ... 

That looks right professional.  It's real satisfying to make something that fits just right. Most of us here, me included, don't do this for a living, nor are we trained in machining, so it always takes us a surprising amount of time to produce a quality part. I just looked at your pics again... nice fit... 

Brian


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## Holt

Very nice looking, I guess you have secured it with Loctite or similar, you could drill and tap a couple of holes directly in the intersection line, put bolts in the holes with Loctite, and remove what is sticking out with a hacksaw and file.


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## Kroll

Good morning guys,yes sir Holt that is a good ideal.I've order some green 603 loctitle so that I can slide the bushing down into the housing and put the 603 maybe the last 1/2 of the bushing.And put alittle loctite on the ring to hold it in maybe just a drop or two for the oil seal.Hope all this works----kroll


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## wa5cab

The seal shouldn't normally need any additional locking.  Good idea on the rest.


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## Kroll

Thanks guys,I have learned so much just doing this oil seal.My order come in today,the 603 loctite and two different bronze bushings.Why two cause I did not know which one would be better,so I though I would ask ya'll.Here couple links to each one http://www.mcmaster.com/#6391k452/=11qnnwr and http://www.mcmaster.com/#2868t213/=11qnpjv


The odd one has alittle more steel in it and can handle more of a load(belts) but I don't know if  over time it will wear out the shaft,so maybe should go with the bronze one


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## Ulma Doctor

you'll be fine either way you go as long as they get lubrication.
nice work!


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## Kroll

Good morning,last couple afternoons and this morning I was able to work on the oil seal.Glad that I had order couple bronze bushings cause I mess up another one.So I'm 1 out of 3 boring bushings.But the last one I feel good about other than I wish I would took alittle more out of the bore.Taking Brians ideal of getting close then using sandpaper to do the fine tuning,which I wish I would done more fine tuning.Getting it all turning the shaft is a little tight,but it turns by hand.


Bushing installed with green loctite just on the upper 1/2 of the bushing


Where the previous owner remove material to install a bearning I made this ring w/shoulder to put back an oil seal which also has loctite to hold it in place and to keep oil from leaking out.


Here is a pic of the double lip oil seal,no loctite here just some oil which it snap into place.


Here is the finish product,which I've taken this apart so many times,I will leak test it tomorrow.Going to give the loctite a day to cure,keeping my fingers cross on this,but its bound to help make it better.NOW


	

		
			
		

		
	
.
Guys here's my next project,replacing the bushing which is very thin.While working on the oil seal I move this gear and notice that it wiggles from side to side,so I bet that this is where some of the noise is coming from.So my game plan is to let the loctite cure then run the lathe awhile and check for any oil.I sure hope that this chapter of this book is finish.Thanks guys for sticking with me on this----kroll


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## hermetic

Looking good Kroll!


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## Holt

Looking good, you might want a lubrication groove, like a very coarse thread on the inside of the bushing.
I got my fingers crossed for the leaking test


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## Kroll

Thanks guys,well heck wish I would have though about a groove.Which bring me to a question, since this bushing is one of those 
oil embedded bushings will it also absorb oil?Oil will work its way to the bushing from the head but will it absorb oil to keep the shaft wet.While I was machining this bushing,droplets of oil was coming out.


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## hermetic

Sounds like the bushing is porous phosphor bronze, which is made by compressing and heating the powdered metals together, (sintering) which leaves voids in the material, which can then be filled with oil. At the moment, it is "full" but  being wetted with oil will do it no harm, and if voids become available, the wetting oil will fill them. Where these bushes are used in electric motors, usually of the shaded pole type, they can dry out and the oil eventually gets mixed with dust and dirt, and polymerises. If the bushing is washed in a strong solvent such as acetone, or even aerosol brake cleaner, then boiled in soapy water and dried out, they can be soaked in warm oil, and are as good as new. I foresee no problems in the way this bush has been installed, even without a lubrication groove.
Phil


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## Brain Coral

I agree with Phil. If this was a solid bushing, then an oiling groove would be an absolute must. But where this is a sintered bearing and has contact with the "wet" side of the gear box, oil will wick into the bearing.

We are all looking forward to your "leak test" Carrol. I am confident that it will be a success. 

Brian


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## Kroll

Thanks guys for passing that information on,well I have some good news.I fill the head back up to 1/2 in site glass then started up the lathe and ran it for about 10mins in low speed,then shifted gears 16 times going from low to high.But only running it for a few mins in each speed,checking for leaks during each stop.After that I pulled the pulley off and check inside the pulley for oil and did not see any coming from the seal.I remove the brake shoes and check around the ring that I made and did not see anything.There was some oil on the outside of the pulley but think that is coming from the belts before I made the repairs.So I know that this is just a small test but so far so good  and I am happy.I guess the real test will come over time when I put it to work but I feel good about the work that I did.For now I am moving to my next repair project which is a bushing for the gear pictured which is 1.5 long.Going to say that this part of the project is complete,thanks for staying with me I would have never been able to do this without ya'll help---kroll


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## Kroll

Good morning guys,well good news,my bushing came in bout mid week,push in on the shaft with alittle Loctite 603.The gear was just a tad to tight so I had to turn the bushing down couple thou.Then using Brians ideal using sandpaper to fine tune the fit,now it fits perfect.So ran the lathe through all the speeds again,so far so good and no oil coming from the seal.*My next task is:*It makes me nervous, is to adjust the spindle head getting it lined up.I will have to read the manual again to learn how to do that.Its going to be terrible cause the 4 bolts that holds spindle head is hard to get to and the 2 small adjustment screws is also hard to get to.Any suggestions,guidance,prayers-----------kroll


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## Brain Coral

Hello Carroll,

I am glad to hear that your repair looks like it is a success. I've never even looked at how the head stock is adjusted on mine. 

Brian


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## Kroll

Oh its such a pain,takes an allen wrench.Two up front is just under the bed ways can only turn them bout 1/4 turn.Then the two on the back I will need to take parts off to get to them.But I have to try,just take my time


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