# Mill with rotary table vs 3-in-1



## Marco M. (Oct 7, 2017)

Hi everybody,
I consider myself an absolute beginner (I only had used a lathe a few times in high school).
I am considering buying my first machine, but I have a very limited space available and a budget of about 2500$.
I would like to be able to perform both milling and turning jobs, so at first, my idea was to buy a 3-in-1 like a Smithy Midas 1220LTD. I have however read that the mill is not very rigid and this could considerably lower the quality of the results. 
Would buying a mill and a (vertical) rotary table be a better choice or not? Why?
Will be there some jobs that I will not be able to do with this setup?

Thank you and Regards!


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## Bob Korves (Oct 7, 2017)

3-in-1 machines are quite limited in rigidity, capacity, and travel.  Some users love them and are able to work around the limitations.  They definitely take up much less space than the combined individual machines of the same capacity.  So if space is really a limitation, and you only want to do smaller and lighter work, it may be a decent choice.  Mini machines might also be a possibility (mini mill, mini lathe, mini drill press.)  If you have the room then I recommend full size machines, though there is a lot of latitude in size with them.  They can be bought used for roughly the same sort of money as 3-in-1 machines and new mini machines, when including tooling.  The lathe is the basic machine tool, and I would start out with it.  You also have some experience with lathes, so getting started would be easier.  As always, much depends on what you think you want to make or repair with the machines.


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## den-den (Oct 7, 2017)

Marco M. said:


> Hi everybody,
> I consider myself an absolute beginner (I only had used a lathe a few times in high school).
> I am considering buying my first machine, but I have a very limited space available and a budget of about 2500$.
> I would like to be able to perform both milling and turning jobs, so at first, my idea was to buy a 3-in-1 like a Smithy Midas 1220LTD. I have however read that the mill is not very rigid and this could considerably lower the quality of the results.
> ...


It certainly depends on what you plan to make but for most, a lathe is more important than a mill if you can not have both.


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## RJSakowski (Oct 7, 2017)

It is possible to carry out some lathe-like machining on a mill with an RT but it is not ideal.  There is a reason for a lathe as there is for a mill.  An RT adds capability that neither a mill or lathe alone can offer but that capability is limited in scope.  On the other hand, a combination lathe/mill/drill is inherently a compromise. It is necessarily a relatively small work envelope.  I don't like the idea of tearing down the setup for one mode of operation to set up for another.

My preference would be to have a separate mill/drill and lathe.  As to which one would be a best acquisition, that's a toss-up. It depends upon where your needs and interests lie.  I started with a lathe and drill press.  It soon became apparent to me that I needed a mill in order to make certain projects. I added an RT which gave me additional capability.  I have since acquired a CNC mill which  further expands my capability.

If budget, space, etc. prohibited separate machines, I guess I would opt for the 3 in 1.


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## Aukai (Oct 7, 2017)

Marco, will you be able to get/have room for both machines, or is this a one shot deal?


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## Marco M. (Oct 7, 2017)

Thank you all for the hints.
For me it's clear that buying two separate machines would be better.
In this case however the space and budget must be "shared" by the two.
My basement is about 250x200cm and I can use at most 150x90cm for the working area.
All of you have suggested that I start with a lathe: will I be able to do even basic stuff with it? Example: a couple of weeks ago I had to shorten a square tube (1/4" walls) and drill some 10mm holes in it... I used an hacksaw and an hand drill. I see how a mill could have helped me in this case... but how about a lathe?


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## Aukai (Oct 7, 2017)

Tough call on this one, my mill makes a great drill press, and I have put it to use for other projects, but felt lacking without the lathe. A rotary table with a chuck. and tail stock may be able to get you by. The experts will need to chime in.


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## Dave Paine (Oct 7, 2017)

You can mount square or rectangular stock in a 4 jaw chuck.  It will be an interrupted cut.  I would cut off with a hacksaw, then face off on a lathe.

You can make a jig for the lathe to mount a drill guide in a tool holder.    Good for drilling on centreline or within the vertical movement of the tool holder.  A video to illustrate.






Space and budget constraints are very common.   I have my own constraints but it seems your shop space constraint is much worse than mine.


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## dulltool17 (Oct 7, 2017)

My machine:http://grizzley.com/products/Combo-Lathe-Mill/G9729?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com



As Bob says, it has its limitations, primarily rigidity.  I find the lathe to be solid and very capable; the mill, being the "add-on" part of the machine, not so much so.  I bought a 4-jaw and machined the extra backplate that came with to adapt it.  I also have a 5" mill vise that I use, as well as a 6" rotary table.   I've also devised a number of creations to overcome most of the mill's limitations.  In a few years, when I retire, I will be selling it and going for better equipment.  To-date, I'd say I've got maybe $2900 into everything, but I stopped counting when I got to small/replenish.ble tooling


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## tweinke (Oct 7, 2017)

In my opinion having started with a 3in1 machine, If you have time and patience the 3in1 will make parts that fit in its work envelope. I think the Smithy machines are probably the more refined of the 3in1 machines. I found it a bit of a pain to get parts to a height that was acceptable for milling at times. You will probably not be hogging material off with the mill like you see in some videos on the net but reasonable depth cuts work out pretty well. Quality of work will mostly depend on you and your setups. One thing you will learn quickly due to the combination mill/lathe is work order needs to be well thought out or you will spend a lot of time switching back and forth between lathe and mill. Can you make good parts with accuracy that also look good, yes you can. If I wouldn't have bought my Shoptask 1720xmtc used I never would have been able to start in this hobby so I will not put down 3in1 machines. Hopefully this helps you, just remember to get the biggest machine or machines you can fit in your budget and space.


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## extropic (Oct 7, 2017)

With 3-in-1 machines, you spend most of your effort/time/money accommodating the limitations of the machine rather than just making parts.
Improving/accommodating the machine can be a satisfying hobby in itself, if that floats your boat.
If you had a different hobby in mind, hold out for the best machines you can afford/house/tool.
Let me put it this way, 3-in-1 machines are not consistent with my understanding of the Swiss reputation/stereotype.
On the other hand, trying to make parts on a 3-in-1 will teach you MANY lessons and everybody's got to start somewhere.

EDIT: What you want to make is a major factor in choosing machines.
If you intend to work with relatively easy to machine materials (aluminum, brass, plastics) in small sizes (less than 1/4 of the machines dimensional capacity) a 3-in-1 might get you started (sort of).
What type of parts do you have in mind?
What Materials?
What sizes?
What tolerances?


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## tincture500 (Oct 7, 2017)

tweinke said:


> In my opinion having started with a 3in1 machine, If you have time and patience the 3in1 will make parts that fit in its work envelope. I think the Smithy machines are probably the more refined of the 3in1 machines. I found it a bit of a pain to get parts to a height that was acceptable for milling at times. You will probably not be hogging material off with the mill like you see in some videos on the net but reasonable depth cuts work out pretty well. Quality of work will mostly depend on you and your setups. One thing you will learn quickly due to the combination mill/lathe is work order needs to be well thought out or you will spend a lot of time switching back and forth between lathe and mill. Can you make good parts with accuracy that also look good, yes you can. If I wouldn't have bought my Shoptask 1720xmtc used I never would have been able to start in this hobby so I will not put down 3in1 machines. Hopefully this helps you, just remember to get the biggest machine or machines you can fit in your budget and space.


I've had a 3 in 1 and found many limitations .  I spent this and bought a grizly 8 x 16 lathe variable speed  $1000. And a Harbor freight mill $500.
Great learning  tools, essentially quality tools for the noob.  Understand in taking the plunge with tooling to make all work, you'll need $500- $800 to buy assoceries. Bangood.com is suitable for much tooling .  4" rotary table can be had for $300. Again, not pro equipment, but suitable and useful for the hobbist.  Tom

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


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## Chipper5783 (Oct 7, 2017)

If you have a really good idea of what you want to make, then describe it and you will get good advise.

When I started into this hobby (30+ years ago), here is the advice that was given to me.  In retrospect, I now see that it was excellent advise and is probably one reason that I stuck with and have enjoyed this activity.
For general machining stuff - making a bit of this and a bit of that: just get a lathe.  Get the biggest lathe that your maxed out budget can handle, just get the critical accessories that are difficult to get later (i.e. steadies and taper attachment) and push the budget a bit beyond the max.  You will soon forget the pain of paying too much, but if you cheap out you will be constantly reminded that you should have paid more.  The rational is that for the core machine, the only way to address short comings of that machine is to purchase another machine (and if you stay in the game, you probably will - but start with the best you can get).   With the space and budget you say you are limited to, you are not talking about a very large machine. 

Why just a lathe?  With just a lathe, it is possible to do a lot of what would generally be done with a milling machine.  Even without a mill attachment, you can still do a lot using the face plate, 4 jaw, various bolt-ons to the cross slide or compound.  In fact it would be a real trade off as to what would be more versatile - a mid sized lathe or a mini-mill & mini-lathe.  Likewise, it would be a real trade off whether the mid sized lathe would be better or a 3 in 1.  Again, it depends on what you want to do - a regular lathe is extremely versatile.

This is a hobby that requires patience, perseverance and a lot of learning.  At "hobby speed" you can easily spend 5 years getting really comfortable with a lathe.  Get the milling machine later, when you know more about what machining is and what sort of work you are doing.  If you get that mill now, when you really do not know what you are doing - then a certain amount of that will end up a sunk cost.  Realistically, you cannot learn "machining" in a short period of time.  I have done a lot of machining, yet a learn something new on about every job I do.

Of course, you can always sell that first machine on and get another machine, but it seems that there is always some loss in the effort to set it up, in tooling that does not really work for that next machine.  There will be some sunk cost.

At the beginning, get only the absolute bare minimum of tooling.  The reason here is you can buy the tooling later, at sale price, used OR AS YOU NEED IT.  Many times I see people (myself included) purchase tooling because "it would sure be handy" yet it sits unused for years.  You said this was for a hobby, so you can afford the time to purchase what you need for a certain project.  Over the years, you will build up a good collection.  You will learn to improvise with what you have (perhaps the job will take 2 hours when it would only be 10 minutes with the "right" tool - so what it is a hobby).

With just a decent lathe (not too small), drill press, bench grinder, some sort of cut off saw and work bench - you can do a lot.  Obviously there will be some tasks that you really cannot do without that mill - but remember that regardless of what facility you have, there will almost always be limitations.  As an "absolute beginner" the #1 limitation will be you.  A lathe plus basic shop is a very competent arrangement.

I followed that advise above, I bought a 15x60 - I didn't even have the converter to power it up.  I saved over the years and kept getting one more piece at a time.  I learned how to use things along the way.  One attachment I bought at the beginning was a milling attachment - turns out I hardly used it, I could usually figure out a work around using the lathe itself or a change in the design of what I was making.  I filled out the rest of the shop, but no other machines for more than 25 years.  That same machine 34 years is now pretty well dressed, I have used it a lot.  I added on to the work shop a few years ago and have now gone a bit crazy buying "old junk" machines and fixing them up (see my signature line).  I am glad to have those other machines and with really just a little tender loving care, they are pretty well as good as new (function wise).  However, I still use that first machine, the 15x60 lathe, more than all the other machines put together.

Let us know how you make out.  Regards, David


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## umahunter (Oct 7, 2017)

I would get something like the grizzly  g0602 and a bench top mill drill


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## umahunter (Oct 7, 2017)

Also check out precision  matthews I myself  wouldn't  like a combo machine you're gonna have to constantly reconfigure to go from turning  to milling especially if you just need to b do something  real quick


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## Marco M. (Oct 8, 2017)

Thank you: your comments made me really think about my goals.

I am a sw engineer, but I studied also electronics and in my free time I would like to do some projects that will require milling PCBs and 3d printing boxes/cases. My plan was to:
1) Use the mill (or 3-in-1) to build the plates/adapters to convert it to CNC
2) Build myself an extruder to be attached to the mill collet, so that I can 3d print
3) Adapt an RC motor to create an high speed spindle for PCB milling.
4) There is always random stuff that break and being able to do some repair myself would be interesting

Of course other projects will come to mind when you have the tools... 

Looking at the points above, I think that having the cartesian positioning system of a mill is a must.

What do you think?


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## Bob Korves (Oct 8, 2017)

Marco M. said:


> Thank you: your comments made me really think about my goals.
> 
> I am a sw engineer, but I studied also electronics and in my free time I would like to do some projects that will require milling PCBs and 3d printing boxes/cases. My plan was to:
> 1) Use the mill (or 3-in-1) to build the plates/adapters to convert it to CNC
> ...


I am not a CNC guy, but wouldn't a sturdy CNC router type machine be more appropriate for achieving those types of results?  They can be home built or purchased ready to use, and would probably fit your available space better.  The 3-in-1 is a bit heavy and coarse for that sort of work, unless you really want to cut steel with significant metal removal regularly.  Converting a 3-in-1 to CNC seems like quite a project to me...


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## Chipper5783 (Oct 8, 2017)

Marco M. said:


> Thank you: your comments made me really think about my goals.
> 
> I am a sw engineer, but I studied also electronics and in my free time I would like to do some projects that will require milling PCBs and 3d printing boxes/cases. My plan was to:
> 1) Use the mill (or 3-in-1) to build the plates/adapters to convert it to CNC
> ...



If your main thing is going to be co-ordinate drilling and working sheet material - then a decent XY table probably is the way to go.  I think Bob has provided some very sound advice, building a CNC off a cheap manual machine is quite a project.  There are a number of CNC builds documented on this (and other) websites - you should consider how they manage backlash and what your solution is going to be, before committing to a certain approach.  Let us know how you make out.  Regards, David


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## tincture500 (Oct 9, 2017)

tweinke said:


> In my opinion having started with a 3in1 machine, If you have time and patience the 3in1 will make parts that fit in its work envelope. I think the Smithy machines are probably the more refined of the 3in1 machines. I found it a bit of a pain to get parts to a height that was acceptable for milling at times. You will probably not be hogging material off with the mill like you see in some videos on the net but reasonable depth cuts work out pretty well. Quality of work will mostly depend on you and your setups. One thing you will learn quickly due to the combination mill/lathe is work order needs to be well thought out or you will spend a lot of time switching back and forth between lathe and mill. Can you make good parts with accuracy that also look good, yes you can. If I wouldn't have bought my Shoptask 1720xmtc used I never would have been able to start in this hobby so I will not put down 3in1 machines. Hopefully this helps you, just remember to get the biggest machine or machines you can fit in your budget and space.


I too began with a 3 in 1 ( shoptask) and also found limits due to the time for change over. Ridgity is another concern even though the added supports that this machine had.  I went with a small variable speed lathe ( grizzley 8 x 16 ) and a harbor freight mill (mini mill). I find as a hobbist, two separate machines better serves my needs.  I turn aluminum, brass, cast bronze, plastics & some 1020 steel.  Just depends upon what your intentions and vision is.  Tom

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


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## Marco M. (Oct 18, 2017)

Today I had the chance to see a Damatomacchine Master 520 (https://www.dmitaliasrl.com/en/combo-lathe-milling-machines/lathe-milling-machine-master-520.php). It's a Chinese product, but it's checked and improved in Italy and Switzerland.
Now I'm trying to compare it with a Proxxon 500/BL (https://www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/24350.php) with a rotary table: what do you think about rigidity? The spindle sleeve doesn't seem very sturdy...
The advantages of the latter are that it's made in Germany and it's already designed to be converted to CNC and to attach a high-speed tool for PCB milling.

Thank you
Marco


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## brino (Oct 18, 2017)

Hi Marco,

Based on your "want list" above, I think you may be better off starting with a desktop CNC router and then adding a heated extruder (and perhaps heated bed) later to add 3D printing capabilities.

My logic for not going the other way is that I think few 3D printers were built with the addition of a router head in mind.....and the forces involved could be quite different.

Here are some links with interesting info......
https://solsylva.com/cnc/13x13x5.shtml
https://www.axyz.com/us/2016/05/13/customized-cnc-routers-woodworking-worth-investment/
http://fabberlab.org/?p=629

(EDIT original link was to old 2014 makesmith kick-starter campaign
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/makesmithcnc/makesmith-cnc-the-most-affordable-desktop-cnc-rout 
and I currently cannot get to their homepage.......problem at my end not theirs)

Fairly cheaply, this could give you a platform for learning CNC control, and various "desktop machining" abilities.
During that time stash your cash and keep thinking of what you want in a heavier CNC mill.

Please keep us updated with the direction you choose!

-brino


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