# Can This Yaskawa Vfd Be Used For Single Phase?



## Techie1961 (Jan 11, 2016)

I have a Yaskawa VFD that I would like to connect to my lathe and make it variable speed. I'll have to replace the motor as well since it's 575V. I heard someone say that the 3P drives can be used but will obviously have a higher draw. It's a European model but exactly the same as the USA model which would be a CIMR-JU...


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## mksj (Jan 11, 2016)

Not sure what the question is, this is a 3 Phase 200-240V  in 3 phase 220-240V variable speed out. If you are asking if it can be run on single phase, I have seen this with Yaskawa 3 phase drives which are derated, but no mention of this in the drive manual. You would need to check with the manufacturer for this drive, as it is considered their mini VFD drive.


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## Techie1961 (Jan 11, 2016)

mksj said:


> Not sure what the question is, this is a 3 Phase 200-240V  in 3 phase 220-240V variable speed out. If you are asking if it can be run on single phase, I have seen this with Yaskawa 3 phase drives which are derated, but no mention of this in the drive manual. You would need to check with the manufacturer for this drive, as it is considered their mini VFD drive.


Sorry about that, I thought something was missing when I posted that. Haha. As you have surmised, I would like to use it on a single phase connection. I have it connected via 575 volts through a rotary phase converter and step up transformer but variable speed would be nice. I just so happen to have this VFD sitting here and hoped that I could use it. The VFD is rated for 4HP and the lathe is 3HP. Unfortunately when derating the VFD for single phase, I might only have about 2HP available.

So my thoughts are that if it is derated to 2HP and I put in a 2HP motor, will I find that it is too small for general use. I don't do much heavy cutting on the lathe and maybe 3HP was ambitious and 2HP is adequate. Or I could put in a 3HP motor and the occasional time that I do run it at capacity, the drive will just kick out and I then know I've gone to far. I have a bit of experience with VFDs but none with changing their intended usage.


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## jeff_g1137 (Jan 11, 2016)

Hi
"I'll have to replace the motor as well since it's 575V."
why is the motor 575v ?????   110v or 240v or 440v
jeff


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## Techie1961 (Jan 11, 2016)

jeff_g1137 said:


> Hi
> "I'll have to replace the motor as well since it's 575V."
> why is the motor 575v ?????   110v or 240v or 440v
> jeff


We don't have 440v in Canada. It's 230v or 575/600v. I don't know the "official" voltages here exactly but those are close.


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## stupoty (Jan 11, 2016)

Why does it de-rate on single phase ?  I think if it's single/three phase compatible it will have the same wattage draw as the total on 3 phase, unless the terminals can't handle the power but that would seem an odd thing.

Anything I've had that's been 1 or 3 phase hasn't had a limit due to single phasing.  Unless the manual says specifically to de-rate I would think it wouldn't be any different.

Well it's always good to look at the manual as I sit hear being totally wrong. 

200v class three phase input 0.1 to 5.5kw
200v class single phase input 0.1 to 2.2kw

https://www.yaskawa.com/pycprd/download/search/detail?n=SIEPC71060631

It seem odd that the single phase input ones have 3 phase terminals with a don't connect to this terminal note in the manual.
my VFD's say connect to any two of the three terminals.

Might be worth a call to their tech dept. for some clarification

Stuart


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## British Steel (Jan 11, 2016)

The derating on single phase is often due to the.increased ripple current in the bus (400 or 700v) capacitors that supply the oomph, on 3-phase each phase in turn charges them so there's only one third as long for the capacitors to support the output, capacitor voltages don't sag as much, reduced ripple current so capacitors live longer. I run a 415v VFD from 240 single-phase, using a voltage doubler on the bus capacitors, possibly the worst-case, and when the caps give out I'll replace 'em...

Dave H. (the other one)


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## mksj (Jan 11, 2016)

The attached posting gives some perspective on derating three phase Yaskawa drives for single phase input. But as mentioned this applies to other models that may be a bit more heavy duty.  The derating does vary by manufacturer and model, I have usually seen something around a 1.6-1.7 derating factor.


If you have an RPC, why not just run the VFD on 3 phase off of your RPC and get the full VFD rating?  Otherwise if using single phase, they recommend a DC line choke, and I do not know if your model can be fitted with one, let alone the cost. At the end of the day, it may be more worthwhile to sell your VFD, and buy a decent single phase sensorless vector VFD 3Hp drive (the Yaskawa model you have does not have sensorless vector ability, which can give more low end grunt on a lathe). Probably come out pretty even on the cost in the end.


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## Techie1961 (Jan 11, 2016)

mksj said:


> The attached posting gives some perspective on derating three phase Yaskawa drives for single phase input. But as mentioned this applies to other models that may be a bit more heavy duty.  The derating does vary by manufacturer and model, I have usually seen something around a 1.6-1.7 derating factor.
> 
> 
> If you have an RPC, why not just run the VFD on 3 phase off of your RPC and get the full VFD rating?  Otherwise if using single phase, they recommend a DC line choke, and I do not know if your model can be fitted with one, let alone the cost. At the end of the day, it may be more worthwhile to sell your VFD, and buy a decent single phase sensorless vector VFD 3Hp drive (the Yaskawa model you have does not have sensorless vector ability, which can give more low end grunt on a lathe). Probably come out pretty even on the cost in the end.


Thanks for taking the time to respond. I had a look at the attached PDF and some of it was clear but I am not an electrician so some wasn't. I will have to read up on it.

I am hoping to remove the RPC from the lathe. It is in the garage portion of my shop and due to the high amperage even at idle, I power it only when I am using the lathe. I have a remote switch so that I can power it up from the shop but haven't done that yet. I am also a bit reluctant to use the RPC with the VFD since I have had some issues with doing this at a customer's location. We installed a pressing machine (dry-cleaning industry) and the VFD didn't like the RPC at all, and faulted no matter what we did. The manufacturer had to send us a single phase version from Italy to get it working. Maybe the Yaskawa would fair better than the ones that they are using.

Any opinions on this?


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## Techie1961 (Jan 11, 2016)

This is the motor that is currently on the lathe. I can't find a thing online about it.



One thing that I am curious about that maybe one of you can answer. When the motor is controlled by a VFD, does the speed on the lathe need to be set for the highest at the gearbox and then the motor controls down from there? This would seem to run it very slow for lower RPMs at the spindle. I am thinking that I would have to still change through a couple of ranges?


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## stupoty (Jan 11, 2016)

The VFD on my lathe is set to just ramp up to line frequency (50hz hear in uk) which gives a very nice soft starting.  I just use the gear box to change the speed to retain full torque.

I've used the variable speed function on the mill for power tapping as the lowest gear setting was still a bit fast for my liking, also the nice gental start up / stop makes it not agressive on the tooling when you reverse it out.

Also on the mill i pushed the frequency up to about 65HZ for a little more top end speed with tiny tiny mills and drills which can be handy (the motor on my mills marked 50/60hz) I think if you speed them up too much the cooling fans take more resistance to turn at the higher speeds although I only ever encountered issues with motor warmin when running it under speed for slower RPM as the fan dosn't push enough air to cool it.

My lath motor smoked out when I first set it up (unbeliveible the insulation broke down a bit after 60 ish years  ) I asked the rewind company to wind it for 220v (it was marked 220/440) which they did and it's been running sweet ever since.  Did cost about the same as a new motor(probably a china brand new motor) but I didn't have to change the mount or pullys so saved a lot of hassle with that side of it and it looks kinda 50's sci-fi which is just a side bonus 

Stuart


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## mksj (Jan 11, 2016)

Beast of a motor in that machine for 3Hp.

I have installed VFDs on RPC systems without any issues, but I am no expert on the subject. The newer RPCs are very quite, and work well, but I can see that you would be better off just going with a single phase VFD.  I would call the manufacturer of your VFD and see what they recommend, but at the end of the day, I think you are better off selling the Yaskawa and getting a single phase 3 Hp unit. You may get more for it  than a newer single phase VFD unit.  On older motors, insulation breakdown is definitely a problem with VFDs as Stuart mentioned, and you can get a very decent quality newer 3 phase motor for not much. I would try to stay with one that is at least inverter rated. When I spoke to a few manufactures about their inverter rated motors and operating parameters, most mentioned that the bearings in their 1800 RPM are good to 2X their rated speed, cooling can become an issue at the higher speeds (and very low, below ~15 Hz for a TEFC type, TENV can run lower). As far as operating range, a reasonable operating envelop is something around 20-80Hz for a newer 3Hp TEFC motor, possible 90Hz. You still need to be able to change mechanical speeds to be in an operating range of your motor. I set my system up so 60Hz will turn the lathe spindle the same speed it previously ran, then one can swing up or down with in any mechanical speed window. If you needed slower speed range, then I would set the lathe spindle speed for each gear so it operates at its rated speed at say 80Hz. Torque should remain pretty flat below the motor base speed, HP declines in a linear fashion, above the motor base speed, the opposite occurs up to abut 90Hz. This varies by motor and rating. Lathes that come with factory VFDs in this size range often have 2 speeds, the VFD controls a ~8-10 fold speed window, so something like 40-400, 400-2500. They also use oversized motors and motor cooling fans to achieve these wide operating windows. Just a starting point.


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## David VanNorman (Jan 11, 2016)

Techie 1961 Were you trying to run a big vac off the RPC? that takes a lot of snot to start.


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## Techie1961 (Jan 12, 2016)

David VanNorman said:


> Techie 1961 Were you trying to run a big vac off the RPC? that takes a lot of snot to start.


Not sure what you mean by a "big vac" but what I am running is a Colchester Dominion 13x36 lathe.


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## mksj (Jan 12, 2016)

I did review the manual for the J1000 VFD, it is rated at 3KW light duty, 2.2KW heavy duty on 3 phase input. Running a 3P 3Hp motor using single phase input on a J1000 VFD in would require a 5Hp unit something like a 2A0020B. Heavy duty is also considered running the carrier frequency higher, which I normally do because of motor whine. So probably would need a different model or replace the RPC.

Not sure what motors are available in Canada and shipping/customs, but the two places in the US that I often use for motors would be Electric Wholesale Motors and Dealers Industrial Equipment. The latter has some nice motor/VFD packages, unfortunately the Canadian exchange rate is not very good these days. Could drive across the border to pick up something at either of these companies.  Some 3Hp models and Teco N3 VFD.
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/LEESON-171320/
http://dealerselectric.com/N0034C.asp
http://dealerselectric.com/N3-203-CS-U.asp

Hope this helps, it is rarely simple.
Mark


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## David VanNorman (Jan 14, 2016)

You had said  about installing the pressing machine when you were talking about the VFD  . I figured you were running A Vacuum with the VFD.
 Most pressing machines use a vacuum  to dry after  the steam.


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## abrace (Jan 14, 2016)

600V 3-Phase is somewhat common in the US for large industrial applications. They often utilize motors listed as 575V as that is the utilization voltage. It is also somewhat common for the utilization voltage stamped on motors to be 5-10% less than nominal voltage anyways as it accounts for some level of voltage drop.

For example, most single phase service is 240V between the phases, even up to 245V+, yet most motor nameplates list 220V or 230V.

Same goes with 120V, many items are marked 110V today yet most of us get 120V or 125V from a phase conductor to neutral on a single phase or 208Y service.

A 575V motor should work just fine on a 575V or a 600V service

Not completely relevant to the conversation since we are discussing a VFD (of which I have little experience with) but thought I would just add regarding the funky looking 575V motor.

---Aaron


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## Techie1961 (Jan 14, 2016)

David VanNorman said:


> You had said  about installing the pressing machine when you were talking about the VFD  . I figured you were running A Vacuum with the VFD.
> Most pressing machines use a vacuum  to dry after  the steam.


Ahhh! Now I understand. You seem to have some experience in this industry. For the machines that we're selling, there is a VFD on the fan blower motor that fills up the garment after steam has been applied.


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