# Cheerleading



## strantor (Feb 10, 2022)

My daughter is 15, turning 16 in a few months. She has asked the past few years if she can join cheerleading, and while I'm not in favor of it, I did not forbid it. Yet each time try-outs come up, she asks again (because "last time you said I couldn't"). And I have to reiterate that I never said she couldn't, and re-hash this conversation:


Me: "Why do you want to spend your time leading praise & worship services in honor of football players? Do the football players come cheer at your basketball games? Does the cheerleading squad even come cheer at your basketball games? Does it not seem a little 'off' to you, that cheerleaders' entire purpose is to pump up the egos of the football team? If you're going to invest that kind of time and effort (that cheerleading requires) into building your high school image, wouldn't you rather be known for something that *you're* actually interested in and/or good at, rather than for dancing around in a short skirt for someone else who's good at something else that you don't even care about?"

Her: "They do other stuff dad, like go to UIL and cheer competitions"

Me: "Does the football team attend cheerleaders UIL and the cheer competitions to support the cheerleaders? You know, firefighters also go to competitions. They compete climbing ladders and stuff. Why do firefighters exist? Is it to go to competitions?"

Her: "No, it's to fight fires."

Me: "and why do cheerleaders exist?"

Her: "Dad it's not about that, it's just, like, you know, like, just for fun."

Me: "There are other fun things you can do. Things that will benefit you more in life than cheerleading. Are you seriously not interested in any of them?"

Her: "Well all my friends are doing cheerleading and I just want to try it."

Me: "Well, it's not something you 'just try.' They have strict rules and they expect to own your life. Do you remember last year they sent home a handbook with you that was 1/4" thick and detailed every little thing they expect of you, lest you be kicked off the squad? How they expect you to act, talk, dress? How you, _and by extension *I*_ must obtain permission in writing for you to be excused from practices during summer and spring break if we want to go on vacation? I would have to pay a rather large non-refundable amount for you to join, and if I pay it, you had better believe that you will be at every single practice and event they want you at. I will not have that money wasted on you getting kicked off the squad."

Her: "It's not that much money and they don't even practice that much."

Me: "Until you have a job and your own money, I will decide how much is 'not much money' and I can guarantee that your 'not much practice' will inevitably coincide with whenever it is we have an opportunity to go out of town. That's just how things work."

Her: "..."

Me: "Look, you need to think more about this. You're being flippant, treating it like it's an inconsequential thing, something you're just going to dip your toe into for an opportunity to hang out with your friends. Cheerleading is much more than that. Talk to your friends who are cheerleaders, talk to their coach. Find out what the practice schedule is, find out exactly how often they practice over summer and during the school year. Find out what they actually do, apart from cartwheels during halftime, and decide if it (it = actual cheerleading, not just hanging out with friends) is something that *you* actually *want* to do, and if you think it's something you can actually manage in terms of time and being still able to study and pass all your classes. If this is something that you're actually passionate about and feel compelled to do, then I will support you in it. But if it's anything else, if there's any half-heartedness in it at all, then you probably shouldn't do it."

Her: "Ok, I will."




Then I don't hear any more about it until a year later when the "Last time you said I couldn't" accusation comes back around. Had this discussion again Monday night, and this time I said "I'm recording this, so that I don't have to remember my script next year. I can just play it back to you. And I'm going to save it in a secure folder to play back to my grandkids in 20 years when they come and ask me how come I didn't let mommy be a cheerleader." She said OK.

This evening she informed us that she finally signed up. Sigh. Ok, well I hope it's everything you expected and more.

I am self aware enough to know that my opinions are tainted with bitterness and are formed mostly by my own unsatisfactory high school experience, but I don't think that invalidates them. My opinion on high school hasn't changed a bit since I graduated 18 years ago. I think the wholesale worship of football players is unhealthy, most of all for the players themselves. We turn them into living legends at age 17 and by the time they're 19 most of them will be nobodies. How much sense does that make? How does that set these young men up for success in life? And I thought we were supposed to all about empowering women these days; how does that jive with reinforcing the traditional gender hierarchy, making the pinnacle of social status a young woman can hope to achieve, be a tool of exaltation of practitioners of a sport that girls aren't even allowed to play?


Looking for feedback on this. Am I being a stick in the mud? Should I just be blindly supportive of whatever school-sanctioned activity my kids become interested in, no matter my own opinions, and no matter their motivations? Is that what a good parent does? (serious question). I mean, I know this is a small thing in the big picture; I could have much worse problems on my hands. My wife was pregnant at the age my daughter is right now.


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## benmychree (Feb 10, 2022)

Get real, dad, don't transfer your negative experiences to your daughter.


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## woodchucker (Feb 10, 2022)

you have valid points.  but she has an emotional side that you are not considering. To them, this is everything. It's status , friends, boyfriends...

You said your piece, she made her decision. You didn't say no.   Hopefully it works out well. HS can be a cruel place for some, and for others the place they were king/queen. You can guide them, you can't make the decisions for them, it's their life.


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## Just for fun (Feb 10, 2022)

No kids here, so no help!  I agree with Woodchucker though.  At least she's not wanting to join the wrestling team or hang out on the street corner drinking and doing whatever else comes around.


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## Manual Mac (Feb 10, 2022)

Dude…You gotta pick your battles
Some you just can’t win.


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## strantor (Feb 10, 2022)

benmychree said:


> Get real, dad, don't transfer your negative experiences to your daughter.



The topic of parenting usually a powder keg. Quickest way to **** someone off is criticizing their parenting skills. For this reason I find it hard to get honest feedback. So thank you for speaking up. I appreciate your candor.

If I should not transfer my negative experiences, then should I also not transfer my positive ones? Is that not what parenting is? Trying to pass on our own lessons learned (experiences, positive & negative) so that they don't have to learn everything the hard way? Again, serious questions. I wear a lot of hats and no other hat makes me feel under qualified more often than the DAD hat.

In my mind, it starts with "don't touch the stove, take it from me, it's hot" and with blinding speed escalates to "don't trust that guy, take it from me, I know his type" and never ends.


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## jwmelvin (Feb 10, 2022)

Just for fun said:


> At least she's not wanting to join the wrestling team



What’s wrong with wrestling?


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## strantor (Feb 10, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> she has an emotional side that you are not considering. To them, this is everything. It's status , friends, boyfriends...



I am aware; I cant say that I fully understand, but I am aware. To me it feels like a rigged game. I am trying to show her that it's rigged but she either can't see it or doesn't care and still just wants to play. I suppose there is something to be said for knowing that a game is rigged but playing it anyway. I mean that is basically a metaphor for life after all. She'll probably turn out to be better at this whole "life" thing than I am. God I hope so...


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## woodchucker (Feb 10, 2022)

you can't protect them from everything. as a matter of fact, you shouldn't.
they need to fail, they need to feel the pain to appreciate the victories, the hard work, the good times.

we protect our kids too much these days. Life can be hard, let your kid learn the lessons of life. Sometimes they may surprise you.  Just be there when they need you, and give them space when they don't.

too many kids are immature, if  you let them live, they grow up more mature and with a dose of reality.


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## 7milesup (Feb 10, 2022)

As a father of now three grown daughters, I would let her join.  As others have mentioned, there are much worse things and much larger battles that you _could_ be fighting. 
I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that a female is promoting a male in a male-dominated sport.  You would think that in this day and age the whole cheerleading thing would have just gone away.  All three of my kids were involved in Cross Country (a real bear of an endurance sport) along with music events. 
As you well know, life throws us curve balls and yet sometimes we connect and get a home run.  Maybe your daughter will love it and feel like it is the best thing she ever did, along with gaining friends and confidence.  Or, she might be ridiculed by her peers and end up hating it.  Either way, your job is to be there for her and support her.


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## Winegrower (Feb 10, 2022)

My experience is that if I had to use logical arguments on the kids, I was toast.


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## MikeInOr (Feb 10, 2022)

You asked, so I am going to tell you what I think.

I don't think you had an honest open conversation about the matter with your daughter.  You threw out a bunch of superficial negatives due to your past experiences instead of telling her what is really on your mind and listening to her feedback.  What do you really not like about cheerleading and football players?  Be honest with her.  Listen to her feedback.  What is she going to do when someone hands her a beer "just to have a sip".  What is she going to do when the other cheerleaders start being all catty and gossipy about the other non-"in" girls?  What is she going to do when everyone else is taking "just a single" drag on a cigarette.  What is she going to do when the captain of the Football starts coming on to her?  Listen to what she has to say.  Don't trap her, give her a chance to think about it before she replies.  Make it a discussion not an argument.  If she says she is going to pass on the beer, cigarette and football player is she sure?  Is she sure she has the confidence in herself to not be one of the crowd and participate in the activities that she knows isn't right?  If she is then it is your turn to ask her what YOU can do to support HER?  What can you do to help her to stay out of trouble and be her own person instead one of just one of the "in" crowd?  If she does start to get into trouble are you going to be there for her to come to for help without "I told you so!"?  If you are planning on being there for support with out the "I told you so" tell her that!  Then STICK TO IT!  Tell her that you will love her no matter "WHAT"!  ...but there are several "what's" that you would really like both of you to steer around and avoid.

I can almost guarantee that the conversation as you described it went in one ear then out the other and probably pushed her into signing up for cheerleading more than making her think twice about it.

I know she is your daughter and you changed her diapers but at some point you are going to have to start thinking of her as her own PERSON and communicating with her as such.

I have told my 17yo daughter that when she wants to start experimenting with drinking that I hope she does it at our house in a safe environment and any of her friends that she wants to have over at that time will have to have their parents give me verbal permission over the phone before I will let them drink.  I would rather her be safe in a safe environment than forbid it and have her do these things behind my back and hide it from me.

You're the parent, it is time for you to be the grown up one and establish a line of communication with her rather than being childish, dumping a bunch of crap about how useless cheerleading is on her and starting arguments... or worse yet pushing her away so that she never wants to have REAL conversations with you.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 10, 2022)

I'm on the same page as you in regards to my thoughts on cheerleaders and football. Seeing you are in Texas you are dealing with high school FOOTBALL which is several steps beyond what we have here.

That said I agree with Mac, pick your battles. Clearly this is something she wants to do if she has asked several years in a row. 

Maybe she does it and hates it, maybe she gets kicked off the team for failing to follow the book full of rules but that is on her. She can still say she did it, maybe look back and say you were right if it doesn't go well but at least she won't wonder what might have been. 

I get that you are not actually saying no, but by forcefully pointing out why it is a bad idea, you are basically saying no. You are putting her in the position of challenging your judgement and risking having you think badly of her which is tough for a kid. 

As far as telling them not to touch a hot stove, its more like saying don't go water skiing. You know a lot of bad stuff could happen water skiing, people die water skiing, but it is fun. As for stay away from that kind of guy, my mother in law was told that about my father in law, in fact she was banished for several years for marrying him. They have now been married 40+ years. 

You can't live your whole life wrapped in bubble wrap. 

Now as a parent myself I will qualify this by saying I'm off to wrap my kid in bubble wrap. I get it, this parenting thing is tough. All we can do is try and do what we think is right without squashing their independence and their right to make mistakes.


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 10, 2022)

Yes, you are being a stick in the mud.  It’s our job as a parent to encourage and support our kids in the things they want to do, as long as they won’t endanger themselves.  I am honest with my kids about what will happen based on the choices they make, but it is their decision on what they want to do.  Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean they won’t thrive and succeed at it.  Cheerleading builds many skills, it’s as athletic as any sport, she will be working in a team, learning how to manage disappointment when things don’t go right.  Those are all skills she needs to succeed in life.  

My son plays hockey, I used to ski, but my fall and winters for the past 11 years have been tied up with traveling every weekend to games all over the state, not being able to go away at Christmas because of tournaments, many doctors visits, etc.  My son is now a senior in high school, his last season ends in a few weeks and I am going to miss it, a lot.  I don’t wish for a second we did anything different.  

Let her try it, and hold her feet to the fire to learn what a commitment means, be honest with her, but not negative, and you might be surprised. We are all stumbling through this parenting thing, I have made plenty of mistakes and have many times wished I could have done something differently.  The hardest part is letting your kids fail, but at some point you need to let them take that risk, and this sounds like the right situation for her.


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## 7milesup (Feb 10, 2022)

MikeInOr said:


> Listen to what she has to say. Don't trap her, give her a chance to think about it before she replies. Make it a discussion not an argument. If she says she is going to pass on the beer, cigarette and football player is she sure? Is she sure she has the confidence in herself to not be one of the crowd and participate in the activities that she knows isn't right? If she is then it is your turn to ask what YOU can do to support HER? What can you do to help her to stay out of trouble and be her own person instead one of just one of the "in" crowd? If she does start to get into trouble are you going to be there for her to come to for help without "I told you so!"? If you are planning on being there for support with out the "I told you so" tell her that! Then STICK TO IT! Tell her that you will love her no matter "WHAT"! ...but there are several "what's" that you would really like both of you to steer around and hopefully avoid.
> 
> I can almost guarantee that the conversation as you described it went in one ear then out the other and probably pushed her into signing up for cheerleading more than making her think twice about it.



^^^This^^^
Mike said it better than me.


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## matthewsx (Feb 11, 2022)

Hang in there and don’t give her a hard time if she drops out.
Go to the games and show interest in anything that she’s interested in. 
Do your best to make sure she’s the one on the ground during aerial routines. 
Encourage her to excel in her courses and challenge herself academically. 

We have one daughter who played volleyball during high school and piano since she was four. Piano was the only thing I told her she had to stick with and I’m glad she did. She is a self driven person who completed high school at the top of her class and went on to complete an engineering degree in four years. She also did half her masters at the same time and graduated with that one year later while working full time.

We’re super proud of her and can’t believe at 23 she’s earning more than either one of us, and moving up in a career she loves

It sounds like you’re doing a good job, just the fact you’re asking opinions shows how much you care.

John


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## strantor (Feb 11, 2022)

Well I woke up to way more input than I expected. Clearly I am an outlier in choosing the way that I handled this; that is what I was growing fear/suspect, and I'm glad I asked the question. I've read all your replies twice and I wish I had time to individually reply to each thing I want to address but I'm off to work in a bit, so even though it feels like a cop out, I'll issue blanket thanks to everyone who took the time to respond and let you know that I'll be chewing on your words for the next few hours or for the rest of my life, as I come to rest in a new outlook on this. Thanks again for your honest feedback.


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## strantor (Feb 11, 2022)

Just want to clarify that this isn't/wasn't about whether or not I should let her join. I told her if she chose to join I would support her, and I meant it, and she joined. So the ship has sailed. I was just reeling a bit from her decision and analyzing my decisions leading up to this, looking for a new perspective; if I should have been more supportive from the beginning, or if I should have actually said "NO" or whatever the case may be. Because I have two more daughters in the pipeline; two more chances to handle this better.


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## jwmelvin (Feb 11, 2022)

I think her decision is stronger because of your skepticism. just make sure you support her now that she has chosen to do it. It sounds like you will.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 11, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> My son plays hockey, I used to ski, but my fall and winters for the past 11 years have been tied up with traveling every weekend to games all over the state, not being able to go away at Christmas because of tournaments, many doctors visits, etc. My son is now a senior in high school, his last season ends in a few weeks and I am going to miss it, a lot. I don’t wish for a second we did anything different.


I also went this route . All of my children (3) played sports . Baseball , soccer , basketball , football , lacrosse to name a few . We traveled the country for tournaments for family vacations for years , met many new friends , went to places we would never had seen , collected many memories . These were the best of times in my view . It has also led to employment for my daughter and contacts across the nation for my sons . My daughter  coached her college basketball team for 3 years before working for the Lacrosse Hall of Fame presently . Many of my sons friends are now pro scouts for Major League Baseball teams here as well as the north of the border teams . Cough cough , he lives on Blue Jay Way now up in Toronto . I ended up with my 45 acres up in New York above Cooperstown because of the Dream Park Tournaments we attended every year also . Do I miss these times ? You bet I do . My daughter may have the decision to make if she wants to coach her alma mater once again . I told her she would have my support 110% and she would also have an assistant coach by her side .   This Wednesday night is her final recruited class's senior night at the college , and my entire family will be there . The team which was always at the top of the Centennial Conference for years has basically fallen apart after the entire coaching staff left . It would be fun to turn it back around .


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## strantor (Feb 11, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> Yes, you are being a stick in the mud.  It’s our job as a parent to encourage and support our kids in the things they want to do, as long as they won’t endanger themselves.  I am honest with my kids about what will happen based on the choices they make, but it is their decision on what they want to do.  Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean they won’t thrive and succeed at it.  Cheerleading builds many skills, it’s as athletic as any sport, she will be working in a team, learning how to manage disappointment when things don’t go right.  Those are all skills she needs to succeed in life.


I acknowledge that there are some positive aspects to cheerleading and some valuable life experiences to be gained but it is going to take to some serious mental gymnastics for me to convince myself that they outweigh the fact that it's all done in pursuit of glory, not for themselves (cheerleaders) but for another group who already has more glory than they know what to do with.


Ischgl99 said:


> My son plays hockey, I used to ski, but my fall and winters for the past 11 years have been tied up with traveling every weekend to games all over the state, not being able to go away at Christmas because of tournaments, many doctors visits, etc.  My son is now a senior in high school, his last season ends in a few weeks and I am going to miss it, a lot.  I don’t wish for a second we did anything different.





mmcmdl said:


> I also went this route . All of my children (3) played sports . Baseball , soccer , basketball , football , lacrosse to name a few . We traveled the country for tournaments for family vacations for years , met many new friends , went to places we would never had seen , collected many memories . These were the best of times in my view . It has also led to employment for my daughter and contacts across the nation for my sons . My daughter  coached her college basketball team for 3 years before working for the Lacrosse Hall of Fame presently .



Your stories sound awesome; the kind of stories I wish I could tell. Your kids chose to do something awesome that reflects their own awesomeness. I would gladly travel the country to support my daughter in any sport or endeavor that she does for herself, even if it is silly. Speed walking, competitive cup stacking, whatever; I would beam with pride. But that's not what my daughter has chosen.

If instead of traveling across the country with the hockey team because your kid was on it, you were traveling because your kid was a roadie/groupie for the hockey team and you knew the only reason they were involved was to earn points in a giant grotesque popularity contest that an ass-backwards society imposed on them and convinced them was important, would it be the same thing?

My daughter plays basketball and I look forward to watching her games each week. I'm sad when the season is over. If she wants to be involved in more extracurriculars, I would (I have) strongly encouraged another sport. Or journalism. Or band. Or anything, anything but cheerleading.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 11, 2022)

__





						delaware blue hen mascot - Google Search
					





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__





						ravens mascot poe - Google Search
					





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My niece was both of the above . It took her to places none of us will ever see.


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## Jubil (Feb 11, 2022)

Parenting is like the game or activities that are being discussed. We tackle the problems with our best effort. Enjoy our successes and lament our failures.
My wife and I guided our kids through those times, sometimes with a stern “no” and sometimes with “are you sure that’s what will make you happy”. It worked for us. But I know that it could have failed. A lot depends on the kid himself. 
My own brother called me a hypocrite once because I was trying to guide my son away from some of the things that I had done. My answer, “I may be a hypocrite but if it keeps him alive and in good health then it’s a success.”
I wouldn’t try to tell someone how to raise their kids but I would tell them to always be there for them.
I think your answer was a good one. 

Chuck


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## strantor (Feb 11, 2022)

In case you couldn't tell, I'm taking time out of work to post here because I can't help myself. I'm too distracted to accomplish anything anyway.


woodchucker said:


> you can't protect them from everything. as a matter of fact, you shouldn't.
> they need to fail, they need to feel the pain to appreciate the victories, the hard work, the good times.
> 
> we protect our kids too much these days. Life can be hard, let your kid learn the lessons of life. Sometimes they may surprise you.  Just be there when they need you, and give them space when they don't.
> ...


I hear you and I agree. My previous reply about passing on our own lessons learned wasn't meant to imply that we should replace their own first hand experience, but merely supplement it. Point out the path we think they should take but not force them down it. 

Ok, in the beginning, yes, force them down the path. I'm not going to let my toddler touch the stove element just so they have the opportunity to learn their own lesson. But as they get older, transitioning out of an authoritarian role and into more of an advisory role. I just maybe have trouble knowing where the line is between authoritarian and advisory, and when to offer advice and when to keep my opinions to myself or least remove them from the advice I give.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 11, 2022)

Youth have learned to " think out of the box " these days , and they need to . These 40-45 year tenure jobs just don't exist any longer . Case in point . Video games . There's been more millioneers made over the past 2 decades from this than most routine jobs . Whooda thunked it ? Whatever road the kiddies may take , support them . Everything seems to work out in the end .


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## strantor (Feb 11, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> My experience is that if I had to use logical arguments on the kids, I was toast.


Yeah you've nailed it pretty squarely. Also applies to women (usually) and dogs (always).



MikeInOr said:


> You asked, so I am going to tell you what I think.
> 
> I don't think you had an honest open conversation about the matter with your daughter.  You threw out a bunch of superficial negatives due to your past experiences instead of telling her what is really on your mind and listening to her feedback.  [...] Listen to what she has to say.  Don't trap her, give her a chance to think about it before she replies.  Make it a discussion not an argument. [...] it is your turn to ask her what YOU can do to support HER?  [...]  If you are planning on being there for support with out the "I told you so" tell her that!  Then STICK TO IT!  Tell her that you will love her no matter "WHAT"!  ...but there are several "what's" that you would really like both of you to steer around and avoid.
> 
> ...


There are some pearls in there. I appreciate the advice and I will be giving this one a few re-reads.



Aaron_W said:


> I get that you are not actually saying no, but by forcefully pointing out why it is a bad idea, you are basically saying no. You are putting her in the position of challenging your judgement and risking having you think badly of her which is tough for a kid.


Thanks for calling me out on that. You're not wrong. And now that she's chosen to "defy" what I drew as tenuous "line" it will be harder for her if she decides it isn't something that she wants after all. Because giving it up will mean all the things it would otherwise mean, PLUS it would mean conceding that I was right. Of course I wouldn't say "told you so" but there would be a big silent mutually understood "told you so" banner flying between us.


Aaron_W said:


> As far as telling them not to touch a hot stove, its more like saying don't go water skiing. You know a lot of bad stuff could happen water skiing, people die water skiing, but it is fun. As for stay away from that kind of guy, my mother in law was told that about my father in law, in fact she was banished for several years for marrying him. They have now been married 40+ years.


Yeah this I am aware of also. She has a boyfriend and I have tried to walk a thin line between condemnation and the creation of forbidden fruit, and the lackadaisical allowance for anything that might happen, to happen.


Aaron_W said:


> You can't live your whole life wrapped in bubble wrap.
> 
> Now as a parent myself I will qualify this by saying I'm off to wrap my kid in bubble wrap. I get it, this parenting thing is tough. All we can do is try and do what we think is right without squashing their independence and their right to make mistakes.


Yeah, I'm on the same page; see previous reply to woodchucker. I think I've painted myself in the wrong light in this thread. I really don't think I'm an overprotective parent. I don't force knee pads and helmets on my kids. It's just this one thing, cheerleading, is something that (if you couldn't tell) I feel strongly about. It disgusts me that it is what it is. I think it's a travesty that it is promoted by the school and by the student body as the #1 way for a girl to be "cool." 

It's like when my wife is in the mood for me to do something sweet for her. She can't tell me that she wants me to do something sweet, because if she does, and I comply, then that takes the sweetness out of it. She doesn't necessarily want me to do something sweet, she wants *me to want* to do something sweet.

I don't want her to not do cheerleading, I want *her to not want to do *cheerleading. But she does, and I can't change that. It does no good to forbid it, the battle is already lost.


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## Winegrower (Feb 11, 2022)

strantor said:


> I don't want her to not do cheerleading, I want *her to not want to do *cheerleading. But she does, and I can't change that. It does no good to forbid it, the battle is already lost.



Good insight!   As Bob Dylan said, ”he won the war after losing every battle”.   The war being we want our kids to love and respect us.   This recognition advances you along that path.


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## strantor (Feb 11, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see what you're doing there and I appreciate it, but I am not (at least not at this time) able to look at it like that. The same could be said of the traveling carnival but who looks forward to their kid running off to be a carney? That's not to liken your niece's mascot position to a circus act, but to say that just because a thing offers unique experiences doesn't make it a net positive endeavor. I assume it was a net positive endeavor for your niece, otherwise you wouldn't have posted, but something tells me hers is an Isolated case.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 11, 2022)

It took her to Hollywood . You never know just who you'll meet in these " what I think is stupid " ideas . Let them do their own thinking , there's a time when you have to let go .


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## strantor (Feb 11, 2022)

Ok, before I forcefully extricate myself from this conversation and get back to doing what I'm paid to do, I want to drop a new seed. 

I said that I would be supportive if she decided to join. Then she joined. I was not expecting her to do that. Now I have to follow through. How do I do that? How do I support her doing something I absolutely don't believe in; something that fundamentally rubs me the wrong way?


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## woodchucker (Feb 11, 2022)

strantor said:


> Ok, before I forcefully extricate myself from this conversation and get back to doing what I'm paid to do, I want to drop a new seed.
> 
> I said that I would be supportive if she decided to join. Then she joined. I was not expecting her to do that. Now I have to follow through. How do I do that? How do I support her doing something I absolutely don't believe in; something that fundamentally rubs me the wrong way?


you'll need to figure that out for yourself.  When she asks you to come, GO. When she unloads on you about the Sh** that goes on, just listen. Most of the time she probably won't want an answer, she probably just wants to vent.  The rest.. I don't have a great answer.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 11, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> you'll need to figure that out for yourself. When she asks you to come, GO. When she unloads on you about the Sh** that goes on, just listen. Most of the time she probably won't want an answer, she probably just wants to vent. The rest.. I don't have a great answer.


Yep . Pretty well sums it up . Becoming a hobby machinist to most people would seem like a stupid ambition to most yet we have 41,000 members on board . The majority of us wont make a dime off of it over our lifetime either . So , why do we do it ? Enjoyment . It should be any parents goal to see their child happy doing whatever brings enjoyment into their lives . Life is short and many spend what time they have being miserable . Bring on those pom poms .


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## vtcnc (Feb 11, 2022)

strantor said:


> My daughter is 15, turning 16 in a few months.
> 
> I am self aware enough to know that my opinions are tainted with bitterness and are formed mostly by my own unsatisfactory high school experience, but I don't think that invalidates them. My opinion on high school hasn't changed a bit since I graduated 18 years ago. I think the wholesale worship of football players is unhealthy, most of all for the players themselves. We turn them into living legends at age 17 and by the time they're 19 most of them will be nobodies. How much sense does that make? How does that set these young men up for success in life? And I thought we were supposed to all about empowering women these days; how does that jive with reinforcing the traditional gender hierarchy, making the pinnacle of social status a young woman can hope to achieve, be a tool of exaltation of practitioners of a sport that girls aren't even allowed to play?
> 
> Looking for feedback on this. Am I being a stick in the mud? Should I just be blindly supportive of whatever school-sanctioned activity my kids become interested in, no matter my own opinions, and no matter their motivations? Is that what a good parent does? (serious question). I mean, I know this is a small thing in the big picture; I could have much worse problems on my hands. My wife was pregnant at the age my daughter is right now.


I have four boys, so take ALL of this with a grain of salt. I don't have a daughter so I can only begin to relate. At one point in time, I had a boss who said he would trade me straight up for my 3 boys for his 3 girls, and his were all adults and out of college.

Honest feedback for you? You are kind of being a stick in the mud.

Honest feedback for her? I tell my boys, once you start something, you aren't allowed to quit. Cheerleading is a big commitment.

Boys and girls have a lot more in common than they do differences, especially when it comes to social matters in this day and age.

- She gets to be on a team.
- She gets a sense of independence.
- She gets to see what it is like to achieve something, and on the flip side, let people down and how to recover from disappointments.
- She will get to have a lot of fun.

This is the only time she gets to be 16, just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean she will. As parents our biggest challenge is to find ways to help them navigate, on their own, all of the challenges life will present, rather than avoid them. Depriving her of these life experiences doesn't help her in this way.


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## vtcnc (Feb 11, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> My son plays hockey, I used to ski, but my fall and winters for the past 11 years have been tied up with traveling every weekend to games all over the state, not being able to go away at Christmas because of tournaments, many doctors visits, etc.  My son is now a senior in high school, his last season ends in a few weeks and I am going to miss it, a lot.  I don’t wish for a second we did anything different.


I hear you, but damn, we just couldn't afford the travel after a couple of years. We had to bail on hockey with our first son. I wish we had found a way to stick with it, I regret it to this day. 

With that said, only one guy from Saint Albans made it to the NHL more than 20 years ago. And you wouldn't believe how crazy this town is about hockey and how many think their kid is going to the NHL.


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## FOMOGO (Feb 11, 2022)

Get her a Bridgeport and call it good. Mike


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## vtcnc (Feb 11, 2022)

strantor said:


> Ok, before I forcefully extricate myself from this conversation and get back to doing what I'm paid to do, I want to drop a new seed.
> 
> I said that I would be supportive if she decided to join. Then she joined. I was not expecting her to do that. Now I have to follow through. How do I do that? How do I support her doing something I absolutely don't believe in; something that fundamentally rubs me the wrong way?


Oof. That's tough. Sounds like the football stuff left some scars. Wouldn't be a bad thing to talk it over with someone but somehow you have got to figure out how to not let the ego, pride, memories, emotions overshadow the _present_ experience.

That stuff is in the past, your challenge is to keep it there because your _past _YOU will ruin the experience for your _present _YOU _and_ your daughter.

Sorry if this is too zen, but that is the way this crap works.

Here is another way to think about it. You know how you said those football players were nobodies now? If you know they should not be stuck in the past reliving the not-so-glory days then why should you be stuck there too?


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## vtcnc (Feb 11, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> Get her a Bridgeport and call it good. Mike


Best advice of the day.


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## matthewsx (Feb 11, 2022)

My high school experience also wasn't the greatest, I didn't even get to take the machine tool technology course I wanted cause my dad said I had to take chemistry instead.

Now that I'm older I understand exactly why my dad didn't want that for me (factory work, he was an engineer).

My wife and I were honest with our daughter about our high school experiences and how they shaped us. The daughter ended up being on the homecoming court, captain of the volleyball team, and valedictorian. She choose those things for herself, (except the homecoming court) and we couldn't have been happier.

With all the things kids could get into these days cheerleading seems pretty harmless and in the age of "me too" it might even be very different experience than when you were young. Bottom line, parenting is hard. Just be honest and always there for your kids and be willing to admit when you make a mistake.

I love this community for the chance to share all kinds of experiences. This kind of honest online exchange is a rare thing in the age of social media shouting....

John


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## MikeInOr (Feb 11, 2022)

strantor said:


> Ok, before I forcefully extricate myself from this conversation and get back to doing what I'm paid to do, I want to drop a new seed.
> 
> I said that I would be supportive if she decided to join. Then she joined. I was not expecting her to do that. Now I have to follow through. How do I do that? How do I support her doing something I absolutely don't believe in; something that fundamentally rubs me the wrong way?



Don't ask us... sit down, have an open conversation and *ASK HER!*  Just honestly and openly asking her how you can best support her in cheerleading will go a VERY long way to letting her know you are there for her!


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## Aaron_W (Feb 11, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> Here is another way to think about it. You know how you said those football players were nobodies now? If you know they should not be stuck in the past reliving the not-so-glory days then why should you be stuck there too?


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 11, 2022)

strantor said:


> Ok, before I forcefully extricate myself from this conversation and get back to doing what I'm paid to do, I want to drop a new seed.
> 
> I said that I would be supportive if she decided to join. Then she joined. I was not expecting her to do that. Now I have to follow through. How do I do that? How do I support her doing something I absolutely don't believe in; something that fundamentally rubs me the wrong way?


You seem to be letting your biases from years past cloud your judgement.  While the justification for it is supporting the football team (do you feel the same way about marching band?), it has become just as much a sport as what my kids play.  Back when I was in school, cheerleading was full of stuck up girls wanting to be popular, now they have their own competitions outside of the sports they support, and there are scholarships at colleges available for cheerleaders.  It might not be much money, but it’s something.

I had a laugh at the comment that you didn’t expect her to join after you said ok, once she heard that, there was no way she was not going to join!  Step one, put your biases from when you were in school away and open your eyes to present day cheerleading.  There is going to be some of what you experienced, but overall it should be a good experience for her.  She’s going to learn hard work, following rules, etc that will make her a better person.  She needs to see you attending her events and congratulating her when she does well and supporting her when she has a bad day, no different than anything else she does in her life.  That’s pretty much what any kid wants.  If you say I told you so, well expect a ****** off daughter that will take a while to be open with you again.  My daughter does dance and it’s not much different than cheerleading, there is the popularity contests, days when things go well, days when she feels like an outcast, but she keeps going back because she loves it so much.  On the car rides home, I just listen and don’t pass judgement, and she is much more open with me because of that.


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 11, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> I hear you, but damn, we just couldn't afford the travel after a couple of years. We had to bail on hockey with our first son. I wish we had found a way to stick with it, I regret it to this day.
> 
> With that said, only one guy from Saint Albans made it to the NHL more than 20 years ago. And you wouldn't believe how crazy this town is about hockey and how many think their kid is going to the NHL.


I am lucky to only have one kid playing hockey, but the other dances, not sure which is worse!  Some parents in our league have 4 kids playing at the same time.  Our hockey program is relatively cheap compared to others in the area.  I was floored when I heard some are paying $6k per year, I think the most I payed for a season was $2k.  One bonus to my son playing hockey, after getting laid off a number of years ago, my wife wanted me to stop traveling and raise the kids since she traveled as well.  She’s much better at keeping her mouth shut about stupid corporate policies.  That lead to switching from an engineering career to open a photography company specializing in sports.  I cover all the home games for my son’s high school team and get front row to the action in addition to shooting youth games in the area.  I’m also the photographer for my daughter’s dance studio, it’s nice offsetting the costs of your kids activities doing something I love as well.


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## higgite (Feb 11, 2022)

strantor said:


> Looking for feedback on this. Am I being a stick in the mud?


That would be a massive understatement. Just MHO.

Tom


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## mickri (Feb 11, 2022)

I was a single parent.  Raised my kids, son and daughter, through middle school and high school.  I didn't care what my kids were interested in as long as it wasn't illegal.  I 100% supported them in their chosen activities.  The only thing that I demanded was that they strive for excellence in whatever they chose to do.  To be the best that they could be.  Not somebody else's best.  Their best.  I demanded this in their school work too.  They did well in school.

My daughter played soccer.  She was good.  Not as good as some of the other girls even though she played to the best of her ability and then some.  Good enough to make the all star team every year in our local AYSO.  She went on to be the president of her sorority in college and then to teaching.  Somewhere along the way she learned people management skills.  Got her students to do stuff other teachers and administrators didn't thing was possible.  She is now a stay at home mom helping her husband run their cattle ranch.

My son was into surfing.  That was his passion.  He was good at any sport that he tried.  He probably could have been a pro golfer.  He was scoring in the 70's from the ladies' tees when he was in 6th grade.  He played golf because his mom's parents who were watching him after school wouldn't let him go surfing.  It was very apparent early on that he was way better than the other kids at surfing.  In high school he won three national amateur titles including the prestigious Open Men's title one year.  Also lead his high school surf team to the first of many national titles.  Went on to travel the world on the pro surf tour after high school.  Made it into the top 50.  His major sponsor was Reef Sandals.  One winter they picked him up in the corporate jet for a snowboarding weekend in Colorado.  Asked him what his long term plans were.  Sales marketing was his response.  Later that year Reef offered him sales position in a territory that had been neglected.  Said he could achieve 2 million plus in sales after a couple of years of hard work.  In his first full year he did 2.8 million in sales.  He is now in charge of sales nation wide and has some marketing functions too.

Back to cheerleading.  I wrestled in high school.  Not great but good enough to be on varsity.  Turned down a  wrestling scholarship at a local college.  At my high school the cheerleaders fought over who got to go to the wrestling matches.  They much preferred going to wrestling verses basketball.  Surprised a lot of schools when our cheerleaders showed up to cheer us on.

The point of all of this is that you need to support your daughter 100% in her chosen activity.  To motivate her to always strive for excellence in whatever she does.  With your support she will learn positive life lessons that will stick with her throughout her life.


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## twraska (Feb 14, 2022)

strantor said:


> My daughter is 15, turning 16 in a few months. She has asked the past few years if she can join cheerleading, and while I'm not in favor of it, I did not forbid it. Yet each time try-outs come up, she asks again (because "last time you said I couldn't"). And I have to reiterate that I never said she couldn't, and re-hash this conversation:
> 
> 
> Me: "Why do you want to spend your time leading praise & worship services in honor of football players? Do the football players come cheer at your basketball games? Does the cheerleading squad even come cheer at your basketball games? Does it not seem a little 'off' to you, that cheerleaders' entire purpose is to pump up the egos of the football team? If you're going to invest that kind of time and effort (that cheerleading requires) into building your high school image, wouldn't you rather be known for something that *you're* actually interested in and/or good at, rather than for dancing around in a short skirt for someone else who's good at something else that you don't even care about?"
> ...


Let her try out.


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