# Oh no, another drum switch dilemma!



## MBY9A (Nov 12, 2020)

Hi folks, New guy here with a drum switch problem and it seems the problem is probably me. Well I tried twice to wire it up and no luck, just hummed when I moved to FWD or REV. I can wire a house or an entrance panel but this switch has got me stumped. I've watched a few hours the past few days and found out there are a ton of switches and motor wiring configurations. I'm ready to just put a on off switch and forget about reverse. 

The motor that came with the lathe didn't have a tag on it so I have no idea about it. It was wired to a Furnas small square drum switch but the PO had a block on the front so it could only go forward as far as I know. So this Dayton is brand new and it's been sitting idle for over 30 years in my shop. I thought it would be a good time to use it. 

So I added enough pics of the switch and motor to help you steer me in the right direction. If it's easier to wire it to 220 I'll go that route since it will be easier on the motor in the long run. 

Thanks for your help, Mike


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## Bi11Hudson (Nov 13, 2020)

Same ol', same ol'. . . You provide a well documented question. I won't go into detail this time, I have answered the question on several occasions and don't feel up to going into detail right now. 

The basis of a reversing, AC, single phase motor is to isolate the start and run windings as *seperate, 2 wire circuits*. Reversing is simply a matter of reversing the relationship between the two. 120 volts is no problem, there is a single make/break contact. 240 volts requires some way to break *both hots* in the off position. This requires some way to isolate both lines during down times. Breaking one side is no big deal for starting or stopping.
.


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## markba633csi (Nov 13, 2020)

This will work with the GE drum switch you have. Configure the motor as per the High voltage diagram
Pull off the black motor wire from terminal #5 and extend it to reach the drum switch
Be sure to ground the switch and motor as shown for safety
Swap black and red motor wires if necessary to match motor rotation with switch handle, or, swap line 1 and 4
-M


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## MBY9A (Nov 13, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> This will work with the drum switch you have. Configure the motor as per the High voltage diagram
> You will need to extend the black motor wire to reach the drum switch
> Be sure to ground the switch and motor as shown for safety
> Swap black and red motor wires if necessary to match motor rotation with switch handle, or, swap line 1 and 4
> ...


Thanks so much Mark!  I'll give a try later today and I'll let you know.


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## markba633csi (Nov 13, 2020)

The data for your motor model is no longer available from Grainger, but I found another model that has the exact same terminal arrangement
and shows the internal connections. Posting it here for everyone's benefit.  Someday I'll put together a file with all the motor and switch info I have collected- it's a lot


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## Jim F (Nov 13, 2020)

Not sure if it helps, but this is my factory Furnas switch on my SB9, wired for 110.


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## markba633csi (Nov 13, 2020)

Drum switches R us  
The problem is there are two main types of Furnas-style switches and several import styles. Then there are probably 6-8 or more different motor terminal configurations, and some variations in factory wire colors.  So it's easy to get misdirected.  I want to do a treatise on this eventually, a step by step procedure with just enough theory so anybody can put it together themselves, and _say _they did it themselves.  Soon, I promise.
-Mark


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## MBY9A (Nov 13, 2020)

Jim F said:


> Not sure if it helps, but this is my factory Furnas switch on my SB9, wired for 110.


Thanks Jim, but my Furnas switch is totally different as you can see.  I'm in the process of trying it out for 220 with the diagram that markba633csi has sent. But thanks for reaching out!

Mike


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## markba633csi (Nov 13, 2020)

Mike: The diagram I posted is only for the GE switch you showed in post #1.
If you want to use the small Furnas switch instead, we'll probably need a different diagram
That's a cute little switch, really vintage.  First one I've seen
-Mark


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## Jim F (Nov 13, 2020)

MBY9A said:


> Thanks Jim, but my Furnas switch is totally different as you can see.  I'm in the process of trying it out for 220 with the diagram that markba633csi has sent. But thanks for reaching out!
> 
> Mike


If you want to get rid of the Furnas, send me a PM.


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## MBY9A (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> Mike: The diagram I posted is only for the GE switch you showed in post #1.
> If you want to use the small Furnas switch instead, we'll probably need a different diagram
> That's a cute little switch, really vintage.  First one I've seen
> -Mark


Mark, Thats not the one I'll be using unless The other doesn't work out but I'm sure it will. . It is very crowded inside for wiring. The connections are all on top and are circular.


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## fixit (Nov 14, 2020)

Solve your problem forever........ Get a reversing motor starter or two relays and a 3 position toggle switch. Did mine years ago they even survived being underwater when IRMA flooded my shop. Still clicking


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## markba633csi (Nov 14, 2020)

No doubt the systems described by fixit in post #12 are better ways to do it. The advantage of the drum switch is it's simplicity
-M


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## fixit (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> No doubt the systems described by fixit in post #12 are better ways to do it. The advantage of the drum switch is it's simplicity
> -M


It sure was better for me. The drum switch only lasted just over a year. My relays have lasted 10 years and went through a flood 3 years ago and still work. I see people begging for help with drum switches all the time on here, To each his own.


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## MBY9A (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> This will work with the GE drum switch you have. Configure the motor as per the High voltage diagram
> Pull off the black motor wire from terminal #5 and extend it to reach the drum switch
> Be sure to ground the switch and motor as shown for safety
> Swap black and red motor wires if necessary to match motor rotation with switch handle, or, swap line 1 and 4
> ...


Hey Mark, I wired it to the diagram and Thumbs down.  What happened was when I turned it to one position it jumped on and made a rather loud hum and when I shut it off it stoped in about 2 sec. In the other position it did seem normal and took roughly 5-8 sec to stop and sounded normal. Then I tried it a few minutes later and it did the same in both directions meaning it jumped on  and made that rather loud hum both ways and stopped in a couple of sec. And the capacitor felt warm for only running a few seconds. Check the pics and see if It's wired right. I think it is according to the diagram. 

Thanks, Mike


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## markba633csi (Nov 14, 2020)

You are supplying it with 220/240 volts, correct?
The wiring looks OK- the brown motor wire is pulled and insulated, correct?
Sounds like it is reversing as it should- You can always remove the drum switch from the circuit and test the motor by itself.  It's possible the centrifugal switch in the motor is malfunctioning. You should be able to hear it clicking when the motor spins down
I need to leave for a couple hours but I shall return


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## MBY9A (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> You are supplying it with 220/240 volts, correct?
> The wiring looks OK- the brown motor wire is pulled and insulated, correct?
> Sounds like it is reversing as it should- You can always remove the drum switch from the circuit and test the motor by itself.  It's possible the centrifugal switch in the motor is malfunctioning. You should be able to hear it clicking when the motor spins down
> I need to leave for a couple hours but I shall return


Yes to 220 & brown wire. I unhooked from switch and wired to motor (220) and it ran OK in both directions ( switched Red & Blk) ,and centrifugal switch worked as it should. 
So it must be a wire in the wrong place in the switch.  Could it be that jumper on 3 & 5 on the switch? What would happen if you connect the other hot wire to the terminal that your diagram shows (NC) which would have a hot wire on 1 & 5 in the switch. I have no idea, just guessing.


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## markba633csi (Nov 14, 2020)

I suspect a problem _at _the switch or in the switch. Let me cogitate for a bit . 
Do you have a multimeter of some kind?
As a test,  move the black motor wire from switch terminal #4 to the NC switch terminal #1.  Everything else the same
-M


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## MBY9A (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> I suspect a problem _at _the switch or in the switch. Let me cogitate for a bit .
> Do you have a multimeter of some kind?
> As a test,  move the black motor wire from switch terminal #4 to the NC switch terminal #1.  Everything else the same
> -M


I do have a meter. I just tried it like you said and in FWD it's CW and normal. In REV it's CCW and loud hum and stops in a couple of sec with no centrifugal switch sound.  

Mike


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## MBY9A (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> I suspect a problem _at _the switch or in the switch. Let me cogitate for a bit .
> Do you have a multimeter of some kind?
> As a test,  move the black motor wire from switch terminal #4 to the NC switch terminal #1.  Everything else the same
> -M


Mark, Do you think the red motor wire should be extended  to #4. I read some other threads somewhere where the red & black need to go on 3 & 4? Don't remember if it was for 110 or 220 though.


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## markba633csi (Nov 14, 2020)

I just found the problem- an oversight on my part.  My sketch is bypassing the motor's centrifugal switch.
Good ol' Dayton.  Let me come up with a solution (after I wipe the egg off my face)
-M
OK, yes I think the best thing is to bring both red and black out. I'll do another sketch. No, not 3 and 4- but you're close


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## markba633csi (Nov 14, 2020)

Try this:   The thing I missed is how the centrifugal switch is connected behind the terminal board.  Very tricky, Dayton, but not tricky enough


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## MBY9A (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> Try this:   The thing I missed is how the centrifugal switch is connected behind the terminal board.  Very tricky, Dayton, but not tricky enough
> View attachment 344142


OK, Sounds good, One question. Since the rotation is correct with the black on #1 would attaching the red on # 4 work ? or should I do it as shown here?


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## markba633csi (Nov 14, 2020)

Try it as drawn first- You may need to swap them- either at the switch or the motor whichever is easier. Swapping 3 and 5 will do the same thing.
-M
ps Your motor was unusual in having one side of the centrifugal switch tied internally to one of the power lugs.  First time I have seen that.  Otherwise, the original sketch would have worked. I always go for the simplest solution with the fewest number of wires first. The Daytons seem to have some of the most confusing wiring schemes because of all the "behind the scenes" hidden connections.  It's meant to simplify things but it often does the opposite

You'll notice that this hookup does not break both sides of the power line.  No way to do that with the switch you have.  Some find that objectionable, but I don't really consider it unsafe, as long as the machine is well grounded.  Always kill the power before working on the wiring.

The real downside of drum switches is that you can reach for the switch to shut off the motor but instead throw it into reverse- the result being that the motor will happily keep running in the same direction it was. These motors need to come to almost a complete stop before reversing. Use care.


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## MBY9A (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> Try it as drawn first- You may need to swap them- either at the switch or the motor whichever is easier
> -M


OK I'm in the process of wiring as the drawing. One last question and hope this doesn't sound stupid. Since the red and black motor wire belong to the 3 & 5 connection in the motor but are extended to  1 & 4 on the switch , am I adding another another wire from 3 & 5 in the motor to 2 & 3 in the switch? Hope this doesn't sound stupid but by  adding a jumper to 1 & 2 and from 3 & 4 be the same thing?  Or just tell me to quit thinking and hook it up like the drawing and watch the sparks fly!


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## markba633csi (Nov 14, 2020)

No it's a valid question.  Yes it's the former.  You will extend red and black to go to switch 1 and 4, and add wires from motor 3 and 5 to switch 2 and 3.
So a total of six wires to motor plus ground
Remember the diagram in the switch cover:  The contacts connect either vertical or horizontal, which swaps the red and black with respect to the motor 3 and 5 terminals. As if you pulled the red and black off yourself and re-plugged them, for forward and reverse


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## MBY9A (Nov 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> No it's a valid question.  Yes it's the former.  You will extend red and black to go to switch 1 and 4, and add wires from motor 3 and 5 to switch 2 and 3.
> So a total of six wires to motor plus ground
> Remember the diagram in the switch cover:  The contacts connect either vertical or horizontal, which swaps the red and black with respect to the motor 3 and 5 terminals. As if you pulled the red and black off yourself and re-plugged them, for forward and reverse


SUCCESS!  Well Mark that did it. I had to switch 3 & 5 for the correct rotation. It purrs like a kitten! I got to tell you that I can't thank you enough for all your help! How you figured that out is beyond me. I tip my hat to your expertise.  Wile-e-coyote, Genius!  

Well that's a big load off my mind because I new I would of never figured that out on my own. All of the threads I've read and youtube's I watched didn't relate to my switch. I new that was going to be a challenge. Again I truly appreciate you taking the time to help me out with this. 
Mike  

ps: Just curious as to what switch would break both sides of the power line that you mentioned .But believe me I'm not getting another switch. I'm quite happy with what I got.  I found a wiring diagram for that old Furnas switch. I may put it on my Jet wood lathe, and that's a big maybe. My Powermatic has reverse built in.


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## markba633csi (Nov 14, 2020)

Glad to hear-  I've seen some imported switches on Amazon that would have enough contacts,  something like a 6 pole switch with 12 terminals. Some of the Furnas switches will break both lines- but only for 120 volts, and probably not with the motor you have, unless you made a slight wiring mod.
They can take a bit of head-scratching to figure out though,  compared to what we just did here- enjoy


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