# Boring Gingery Head Stock



## horty (Oct 1, 2019)

Hi again, I would like to put a set of tapered roller bearings in my gingery lathe.
Its working fine but its a constant bearing adjustment and sometimes I'll get 
a little chatter, usually on the second to last cut and then it wont clean up, that sucks.

I cant bore out the head stock like I originally did unless I remove the head stock and 
set it to move into the revolving boring bar, according to gingery.

You guys that have built gingery lathes know that gingery says not to do it similar to 
the way I describe below.

Would it work to machine a bar to make sure there is no taper between centers.

Then setup a boring bar to run in bushings in the tail stock and then connect the lead screw
to the tail stock and manually feed it into the head stock.

Once the first section is bored out, install a set of bushing in the hole to support the
boring bar for the last section to be bored.

I have a small motor to set up and run the boring bar or else a drill on slow speed.

Let me know what you think, or any comment about this.

Thanks,
Tim


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Oct 1, 2019)

Could you post a picture of the lathe as it currently sits please as it may help us help you better. 

Ok just thinking out loud not really knowing what I'm dealing with other then what you stated and also knowing accuracy is key........Is there any way you could setup a "spider" onto the far left side of lathe headstock that will be the outside bearing to support your boaring bar held in the tailstock on the other end? Of course you will need to figure a way to temporarily afix the spider to the head casting that will not interfere with the cut on either side.  When you make your boaring bar im thinking to cut a slot to hold the cutting tool at both ends of the bar so you only need to place the cutting tool and set its height without moving the bar itself from its set position.  Of course if you have enough torque to turn the bar available you may be able to do both holes at the same time although Would Not Recommend going so!  If need be you could run the bar turning operation from the spider side pending what type of equipment you are working with and how you make your bar.


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## horty (Oct 2, 2019)

I know exactly what your saying, laying in bed last night that Idea came into my mushy old brain, I have never ( line bore) think that's what its called.
 before, correct me if I'm wrong.
Sounds like you have done this before!!
I will send a few pics, right now need to get my pole barn organized and make winter room for all my stuff. waited to long last year and and got pretty cold out there, this year will try to get ahead of things.
Give me a few days and I'll get some pics up, but sounds like it will work if I do some careful set-up.
Thanks and Have a Nice day
Tim


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## cjtoombs (Oct 2, 2019)

I think you could make a boring bar end support like you are talking about. You could make a casting that would bolt down to the bed (like the headstock) but with only enough sticking up to put a bearing (roller or bronze) into.  You could mark the center of this with the lathe itself so that it's in the right place and finish it.  Then, move the headstock to the right, bolt the bearing support to the left of the headstock and then use the tailstock to re-bore the headstock.  The boring bar could slide through the support bearing to allow for movement of the bar through the headstock.  I don't see any reason this wouldn't work, and should give a stable platform.  You just need to make sure there is enough room between the bearing support and the headstock to make tool adjustments, as you will have to have stops on the inside of the headstock bearing pockets for the tapered roller bearings to seat against.  You might also think about using angular contact bearings, as these can be had with seals so you don't have to worry about grease retention.  They perform the same function as tapered rollers, taking both radial and axial loads.  good luck.


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## horty (Oct 4, 2019)

Both very good ideas, and your right about the bearings, I wont have to worry about how to preload somehow.
Using angular contact bearings would be a lot better, I have a serpentine belt idler/tightener that I'm looking at and that 
bearing looks like a double angular contact bearings, these always have axial load on them and this one has 200,000 miles on it and still
feels like new. Maybe could use one like that for the front bearing and a single angular contact bearing for the rear.
Not sure how much bigger the spindle should be, now is .75" but maybe could go to an 1" or 1.125", if need to I could make some new bearing caps 
that would be large enough to accept a larger OD bearing..
What are you guys opinions on the spindle. I have no threading capabilities but could have it threaded when done. Would need to make new back plates and everything else that use to mount on .75" spindle, but I wouldn't mind doing that.
Thanks
Tim


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## Bi11Hudson (Oct 4, 2019)

Just a thought...... I started to build the Gingery lathe, but working for a living got in the way so I bought one. (actually several) The Gingery lathe is built with aluminium castings. Not alloys, almost  pure aluminium. Very soft...... 

What about cutting recesses in both sides of the headstock and using trailer wheel bearings? Granted, they aren't shielded, perhaps a shielded equivilent.  It would involve adapting a few parts, but good for hundreds(thousands?) of hours at almost no cost.

Or just me babbling again?

.


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## cjtoombs (Oct 8, 2019)

Take a look on VXB bearings, you can find what you are looking for there.  All the angular contact bearings I've seen are metric, but since you plan on changing the spindle anyway, that shouldn't be a problem.  You may have to find the bearing number you are looking for on VXB (they have a nice search by size feature) and then look on ebay for a shielded/sealed version as they don't seem to carry many of those.  If you use a double on one end to take the trust you can just use a regular ball bearing on the other, only one side needs to take thrust.  Enjoy.


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## horty (Oct 8, 2019)

Bi11Hudson said:


> Just a thought...... I started to build the Gingery lathe, but working for a living got in the way so I bought one. (actually several) The Gingery lathe is built with aluminium castings. Not alloys, almost  pure aluminium. Very soft......
> 
> What about cutting recesses in both sides of the headstock and using trailer wheel bearings? Granted, they aren't shielded, perhaps a shielded equivilent.  It would involve adapting a few parts, but good for hundreds(thousands?) of hours at almost no cost.
> 
> ...


I thought of that but then I would need a way to preload the bearings, and I cant cut threads for a nut, I dont have the means and the experience to do something like that and to old to learn... But a good idea..
Oh, I thought aluminum was an alloy!!
Thanks,
Tim


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## horty (Oct 8, 2019)

cjtoombs said:


> Take a look on VXB bearings, you can find what you are looking for there.  All the angular contact bearings I've seen are metric, but since you plan on changing the spindle anyway, that shouldn't be a problem.  You may have to find the bearing number you are looking for on VXB (they have a nice search by size feature) and then look on ebay for a shielded/sealed version as they don't seem to carry many of those.  If you use a double on one end to take the trust you can just use a regular ball bearing on the other, only one side needs to take thrust.  Enjoy.


Thanks for the bearing information, sounds like it will work perfect.
Now I just need to figure out what size thread and bearing sizes and 
to really figure this setup correctly so I don't mess it all up.. 
Thanks,
Tim


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## horty (Oct 22, 2019)

horty said:


> Thanks for the bearing information, sounds like it will work perfect.
> Now I just need to figure out what size thread and bearing sizes and
> to really figure this setup correctly so I don't mess it all up..
> Thanks,
> Tim


Hi, I purchased 3 bearings for the spindle, 30mmx42mmx10, don't really need 3 but thought an extra one is good to have on hand.
Already had one for the rear, .625x1.375x.437 a brand new one with shields so should work fine.
Spent all day aligning and adjusting the lathe to the best I can so I can machine a new spindle that will be installed with the new bearings. 
I wont be able to thread the 1.125x12 on the end of new spindle.
I wonder if once I take it off the centers and have it threaded else where it will mess up the perfect alignment. IMO I think it will be fine as long as I have good centers and the other machine doing the threading is of good alignment and set up properly.
Well, its going to be a slow process as this damn arthritis is really getting to me, should hear me in the morning, wife says I sound like a squealing little pig when I get out of bed. 
About 8 beers takes the pain away or 2.5 bottles of chokecherry wine, but cant work when half looped up...
Have A Nice day,
Tim


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## cjtoombs (Oct 22, 2019)

The threading shouldn't effect the concentrically where it's important.  What's important is the concentricity of the centerline of the spindle and the actual centerline of whatever is holding the part.  On most lathes that would be the taper and the indexing surface for the chuck.  I don't know what you intend to use for workholding, I don't remember what the original Gingery method was, a hole bored in the nose of the spindle, I think.


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## horty (Oct 22, 2019)

cjtoombs said:


> The threading shouldn't effect the concentrically where it's important.  What's important is the concentricity of the centerline of the spindle and the actual centerline of whatever is holding the part.  On most lathes that would be the taper and the indexing surface for the chuck.  I don't know what you intend to use for workholding, I don't remember what the original Gingery method was, a hole bored in the nose of the spindle, I think.


The original gingery spindle was a .625 stub that would hold face plate with set screws but didnt seem very accurate so I took a long .750" bolt and made a spindle from that so I would have .750 threads instead of a .625 stub.
I have a 4" 3 jaw chuck that I made a chuck plate for with .750 internal threads to mount chuck.

Since I mounted the chuck I have been getting chatter occasionally, I assume it is from the extra weight hanging out and not big enough spindle for support.

I like the threaded spindle because I can cast almost anything with a threaded nut in the center and face it off, like face plates.

Since I spent alot of time on the lathe the last few days, I really have no run out on a 12" test bar when it is machined, I cant measure any anyway, so I think the accuracy should be ok for the new spindle..

Thanks for letting me know about the threading, is a bit of relief.
Thanks,
Tim


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## cjtoombs (Oct 23, 2019)

Factory threaded spindles have an unthreaded shoulder at the base of the threads that center the chuck, but It seams you are doing fine without that.  All three jaw chucks have some runout anyway, as long as you do all your turning in one setup, it doesn't matter.  Also, you can also mount a center then turn it so that it is perfectly concentric with the spindle before turning between centers.  This is a fairly common practice and ensures concentrically.  Of course, you have to re-turn the center every time you unmount and remount it in the machine.  Looking forward to seeing how this turns  out.


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## horty (Oct 23, 2019)

cjtoombs said:


> Factory threaded spindles have an unthreaded shoulder at the base of the threads that center the chuck, but It seams you are doing fine without that.  All three jaw chucks have some runout anyway, as long as you do all your turning in one setup, it doesn't matter.  Also, you can also mount a center then turn it so that it is perfectly concentric with the spindle before turning between centers.  This is a fairly common practice and ensures concentrically.  Of course, you have to re-turn the center every time you unmount and remount it in the machine.  Looking forward to seeing how this turns  out.


On that .750 bolt I made the spindle out of, I did machine a small relief at the shoulder and made sure of a flat area to register the chuck, I also made sure that the chuck had the same. When I cast the plate for the chuck, I just cast a .750 nut in the center and then machined the plate.
Took me some time to make that plate, like about 3 hours for the machining but took my time and wanted to make sure to get it right the first time, in the end I have .0015 runout, thats when I tighten the bearings up good to take out that play. Hopefully soon I wont have to worry about that anymore..
I have never had any schooling  for machining, but I do the best I can, getting old and arthritic but its fun and cant sit still very long..
And thank for the tips about turning on centers.
Thanks,
Tim

Just about forgot to show some machining, I seen a different way to grind the tool bit and sure does a good job at .005 or less at one time.
View attachment 1015191726[1].mp4


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## horty (Oct 30, 2019)

Hi Again, been getting ready to machine this new spindle for the lathe.
Been getting things together for the boring for the new bearings, took some hard and long thinking of how to do  it,
I'm pretty confident that it will work, and if it don't I'll be so embarrassed that nobody will ever hear from me again.
Not really, but will fell very dissapointed, as I always do when screwing something up.

Now I have some questions about the bearings.
Ive talked to 4 or 5 different people and they all have different Ideas about how to install these bearings.

One says that I need 2 nuts, one before the bearing and one left hand nut after the last bearing to  adjust pre-load..even though they are ball bearings. I think he don't know, miss-lead or whats going on, I thought that pre-load would be for bearings like used on a trailer, Race, Bearing, Washer, Seal, Nut to adjust pre-load... 

I could go on and on about the other ideas but no need to, I have a way I think would work, besides this isn't some Hi production cnc lathe, its just for occasional use for me.

The first bearing will be flush with the bearing cap on the right side, then to the right of that will be a bronze thrust washer and then the machined shoulder of the spindle then the spindle threads..

To the left of that bearing will be a spacer, (the width of the cap is a little wider than
the 2 bearings by about .375) so that would be the width to bring that bearing flush on the left side.

Then to the left of that would be another thrust washer, thin machine washer and a lock collar, after that to the
left is pretty simple, pulley, new small bearing etc.

I was going to do all the machining here except the threading of the 1.125x12 thread..

So that's about it, If you think I'm wrong please tell me, don't wait till I'm done then tell me I screwed up like my
A.. H... brother would do..

Thanks Again,
Tim


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## cjtoombs (Oct 31, 2019)

Did you get a double row angular contact bearing or single row?  For a double row you probably don't need pre load so long as the bearing is constrained laterally on both the shaft and the housing.  For single row bearings, they should take some pre-load.  For single row you also need to be sure you install them in the right direction, or the pre-load and thrust will push the bearing apart.


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## horty (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi, the 2 bearings for the front are double row, and the one in the rear is a SKF heavy duty bearing.
The plan was (I always need a plan) was to not have to beat the bearing in but just some medium taps with the driver and hammer..
With your knowledge, which I really appreciate, that you could tell me what the bearing tolerance should be for the shaft and the bore.
Asked some friends of mine and its the same old thing, some say .005 for the shaft some say .003, and the same thing for the bore, so not sure who to believe.. was going to call the machine shop that will do the threading for me tomorrow, he's a 1 man shop and does really nice work and 
always about 20-30% less than the big guys.

Well, one step at a time and everything will work out.

Thanks again for your help and the knowledge you bring to my project, I appreciate it.

Thanks,
Tim


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## cjtoombs (Oct 31, 2019)

.003 is way too much.  For something like that you want a fairly tight sliding fit, so something like .001 to maybe .0015.  Basically as small a tolerance as you can get and still slide it on, or more like push it on.  Also, if you are using double row angular contact bearings, you only need one to take thrust in both directions.  So you can put on in the front bearing, ensure it is held laterally in both the housing and on the shaft (you will need a nut on the shaft against it) and it will take the thrust.  Then you can use a regular ball bearing in the back, as it will not need to take thrust.


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## horty (Nov 2, 2019)

Sorry, but getting confused, did you say I only need one bearing in front?


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## cjtoombs (Nov 3, 2019)

Yes, only one bearing is needed in the front.  If you use a double angular contact bearing, it will take thrust loads in both directions as long as it is properly constrained.  In that case you need one double angular contact bearing in the front  fully constrained, and you need one plain roller bearing in the rear bearing constrained in the housing, not on the shaft.  If you use single angular contact bearings you need one in front and one in back oriented so that they take the thrust load towards the headstock on the front bearing and away from the headstock on the rear bearing.  So for instance, with your double angular contact bearing, it will have to be held solid in the housing by the outer shell with a nut or plate.  The shaft will have to have the bearing trapped between the nose and a nut, both of which tighten against the inner bearing shell.  The rear plain roller bearing will be held in the housing with either a nut or plate and be free to float on the shaft.  That means the shaft will have to be stepped and the inner diameter of the plain rear bearing will have to be enough smaller to allow for the threads for the nut that holds the front bearing.


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## horty (Nov 5, 2019)

Thanks a lot, your good at explaining.
I was talking to the machinist that was going to do the threading, he scribbled out how It should be done with the bearings. 
I'm 100% with the way you say to do it, I have do doubts you have the done this before and have the knowledge..

He wont thread it for me unless its done his way,,, thats fine with me, there are alot of machinists around here.
Anyway,
I attached the the drawing which Is from his scribbling, hope its good enough to understand.

I'm still going to do it your way but just want your opinion on his way of doing things, I'm learning
from this and maybe it will help others.

And Thanks A lot Again...
Tim


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## cjtoombs (Nov 5, 2019)

As for the shaft, that's fine, but I don't see how the bearings are restrained in the housing bore.  If they are not, then the front bearings and shaft will move in the housing under thrust loads.  In this setup, the bore is usually step bored so that be bearings are pressed against the step (in other words, teh step would take the place of the sleve shown in the drawing in black.  That sleeve will need to be held in the housing some way or this setup won't work.  Locktite would probably be sufficient, I would use the green Locktite.


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## horty (Nov 5, 2019)

Your right, it would want to move around in there ...I'm going to do it your way  anyway, But
I guess I forgot to tell you and even forgot to put it in the drawing is that the small end of the shaft on the outside 
will have a thrust washer, 1 bellevue washers to keep very little pressure  and a small pulley locked on that turns the lead screw,
and a small lock collar on the right of the that bearing, I re-measured my space in there and have more that .250 allowance, its closer to .500
so a collar should fit, but your way is simple and the correct way.
I would also need some step boring for the bearings and that would be tough for me without messing up the hole thing.
going to be tricky enough boring this out and keeping everything in order, for me anyway.

In your case I woudnt need that extra bearing, I think the machinist knows nothing about angular ball bearings, when I 
mentioned that to him he got that dumb look on his face like a donkey.

Well, tomorrow will check other machine shops that will do that threading for me, the reason I picked donkey face was he 
could get at it right away, but I dont mind waiting for 2 weeks at some other shop, he does kinda irritate me some.

I'll Be back...

Thanks Again,
Tim


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## horty (Nov 5, 2019)

*and a small lock collar on the right of the that bearing, *
(I mean Left of the bearing.) in previous post

Yuk, the confusion in my old brain..Must be the new arthritis drugs I'm on, hell of a time thinking lately..


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## horty (Nov 7, 2019)

What a difference a day makes.. Was all goofed up on some of my drugs, that wasn't good, feeling good today so on with the project.. found a machinist today that will machine the spindle and thread it, I'm afraid that with the worn spindle bushing I have in the lathe now could cause me some problems.. 
Spindle will be done in a week or two..

Been  getting things together for boring the head stock..This will be the fun part...
Back in a week or so.
Tim


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## horty (Nov 17, 2019)

Finally have the head spindle installed, sure makes a difference with those new bearings.

No Chattering, No Flopping Around, And Nice Not To Have All That Oil Dripping All Over, 

Cost me $217.50 to have the spindle machined, I furnished the 4140, he charges $100/Hr. took him alittle over 2 hours, it would have taken me forever even if I could cut threads, so for the price I'm very happy..forgot to take a pic of it but it fit right in the way it should have.

I took some shaky videos of the setup and boring but need to edit them alittle, no need to watch nothing.

Once I figure out how to do that I'll post them for you..


Might start makeing the back gears some time this winter, But I ordered the Back Gear Book When I Ordered The Lathe Book,
For The Life Of Me I Can Not Find It, Would Anyone Be Willing To Share A Copy Of The Book??

Thanks,
Tim


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## horty (Nov 17, 2019)

Hi, heres a few pictures of the old spindle, the way I set up for boring and aligning boring bar with old spindle bearings.
I'll post some video as soon as I figure out how to resize them, got new computer so learning all over again..

By turning lead screw it moves the drill forward the is mounted on the cross slide loosely as not to strain the boring bar.
as the new boring bar slides in the mounted bearing bushings, I have a speed control hooked to the drill to control the the rpm, (that will show in video)

I will post more tomorrow,
Tim


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## horty (Nov 18, 2019)

Heres a few more pics and some videos..
Thanks very much to cjtoombs, it was nice to have some help with this project and not give up on an old man,with out you helping I would still be staring at that old spindle.. 
Thanks All,
Tim





View attachment 1.mp4













View attachment 3.mp4




















View attachment Thru Bore 2.mp4























*Pic of new faceplate casting with new 1 1/8" nut cast in the middle.*


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## cjtoombs (Nov 19, 2019)

No problem, glad it turned out well.  I've always been interested in the Gingery machines.  I've read all the books more than once.  I think even if you never plan to build them they are a very interesting and educational read.  They provided a lot of innovative solutions to a problem that badly needed solving at the time.  While commercial machines are now readily available for decent prices, for folks who don't want to spend a lot of money on this hobby or just want the experience, I think they are a great alternative.


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## horty (Nov 19, 2019)

Your Right, I was about to spend $4000.00 on a lathe years ago, but what then, have a lathe that is used about 6 hours a month, so came the gingery lathe.
Was fun to build, and learned alot about how things were done years ago, and have nothing but time on my hands, so always coming up with something to build or cast...need a reason to get up in the morning.

Surprised that no one else has commented on it, I really don't mind but I wonder why, maybe I did or said something wrong on this forum..
I might have, had head injury few years back and do act and say wrong things at the wrong time and don't even realize it.
If I offended many on this site, I apologize.
Oh Well life goes on...
Tim


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Nov 19, 2019)

I commend you on your creation, nice work.
As for why no one has yet to comment just give it time, I didnt see this thread until a few minutes ago and ive been on a few times today looking through new post.


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## john.oliver35 (Nov 19, 2019)

Fun project!  Thank you for posting.  It is always fun to see people build something more precise than the tools they are using to build it!  I got a copy of the Gingery lathe books back in high school but never tackled the project  - that was 35 years ago!


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## brino (Dec 20, 2019)

Hi Tim,

I just stumbled across this thread today.....I'm late to the party again.......



horty said:


> No Chattering, No Flopping Around, And Nice Not To Have All That Oil Dripping All Over,



That sounds like a win to me!
Congratulations.



horty said:


> Surprised that no one else has commented on it, I really don't mind but I wonder why, maybe I did or said something wrong on this forum..
> I might have, had head injury few years back and do act and say wrong things at the wrong time and don't even realize it.
> If I offended many on this site, I apologize.



Don't worry about that. You said/did nothing to offend. I suspect that there are many people like me that bought the Gingery books to see how all that was possible, but then realized that the cost/benefit ratio was NOT in their favour. For me, I would be dead long before I have time to finish building the Gingery machine shop collection.

However, even though I was short on time I could eventually scrape together the money for an old lathe (1937 Southbend) and old mill (1916 Cincinnati).
The lessons learned from the Gingery series DID give me a pile of insight into checking these machines and making some additions.

I am hoping that my health holds out long enough for me to retire and spend much more time in my workshop.
I'd love to change the time/cost benefit analysis for so many projects.
Please feel free to post anytime about any of your projects!

-brino


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## horty (Dec 21, 2019)

brino said:


> Hi Tim,
> 
> I just stumbled across this thread today.....I'm late to the party again.......
> 
> ...


brino, sounds like some nice old machines you have, the fun part is working and tweaking them and then start over again..
After the new spindle in my gingery lathe it sure works good now, nice and smooth and the only chattering is if I screw something up.. and really quick at machining pulleys. 

Gingery machines really feed my brain, cant get enough of that building stuff...

Hope you stay healthy, Its fun to just do what ever you want when retired, I cant sit and watch TV very long so I'm happy just building something, 

Thanks,
Have a Nice evening or day,
Tim


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