# I Got Burnt!!



## Coomba (Jul 12, 2015)

In an attempt to let others know how I was burnt by one of the company's selling mills I'm in the process of putting together a video. And I would also like to come on forums to let everyone know who is looking for a mill, my story. But, I don't know if that is allowed. I'm not trying to flame any one person for their options, just would like to forewarn, would be buyers of the junk I was sold and the junk that was sent to replace it.


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## Ed ke6bnl (Jul 12, 2015)

don't now the rules but that is a large investment and these dealers need to put there best foot forward or loose there business,  one problem is there are those that could use this to harm a decent good company and there is always some disenchanted buyer for the best companies. You can see that in reviews on an item you may be familiar with. but the video and some good facts can save someone some good hard earned money.


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## JimDawson (Jul 12, 2015)

If what you have to say is factual, then your comments are welcome here.  Just keep it to the facts.


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## Coomba (Jul 12, 2015)

I agree,but I have good proof and been patient hoping this would work out, but they will not even answer any of my e-mails anymore. This has been going on since last Dec. I would like to keep others from buying their product. I paid good cash, and I'm on a fixed income. If I  get the go head I'll post the video of the second mill I received. I sent it to the company to show them they have no quality control.


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## JimDawson (Jul 12, 2015)

Go ahead and post your video, if it violates the Forum rules we can always block it.  Factual experiences with vendors both good and bad are always welcome.


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## Coomba (Jul 12, 2015)

Ok great. Let me lay a little ground work. In Feb of 2015 I purchased a 12z  mill, the steel stand and a chip pan from Charter Oak Automation. The first thing I noticed about the mill is that the slots cut for the t bolts on the table were cut in steps. I'm very new to machining so I posted a picture on this forum to ask for your thoughts.( Feb 5th New mill issue) Most said to send it back. But you have to understand my shop is on the second floor of my barn, and it has to lifted by a hand hoist then I need to rent a engine lift to get it on the stand. Also its a 50 mile trip to pick it up. So after contacting Charter Oak they agreed to send me a two axis DRO, WOW!  It still has not arrived even after many calls. Skip forward now to March. The gear on the handle to raise and lower the head is now stripped. The mill is now non functioning. I contact Charter Oak Automation and the do agree to send out a second mill. I receive the mill lift it to my shop set it in place and when cleaning it up was just blown away. So I made a video to show them all the problems. Now I do admit that some are very minor, but as you will see this mill should never have left there warehouse. Absolutely zero quality control. Hope this video works,
I can't seem to figure out how to post this video from my computer to this post.


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## savarin (Jul 12, 2015)

I feel your pain.
I replaced my old mig with a new three in one.
It went beautifully for 1 week then the mig stopped. (after half a 5kg roll was used)
They replaced it but the exchange unit wouldnt go down to 0.6mm wire (the original did)
Countless calls to the company did nothing and after a couple of weeks the mig on this set stopped working.
From then on I was ignored.
The stick and tig work very well but it was the mig I really wanted.
This was an ebay item and obviously cheap.
Be warned.
I still dont have a mig set.
I found after the event that this company has a gigantic track record of this kind of behaviour and ebay allows them to remove all the negative feedback.
They also keep the dialog moving until the pay-pal period ends then nothing.
I now search for any company I use before buying for such details.


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## JimDawson (Jul 12, 2015)

Coomba said:


> I can't seem to figure out how to post this video from my computer to this post.


First you have to upload the video to YouTube or other video host then you can link to it in this forum


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## Coomba (Jul 12, 2015)

I'm working on that now


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## coolidge (Jul 12, 2015)

Savarin what brand welder? Just curious.


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## savarin (Jul 12, 2015)

coolidge said:


> Savarin what brand welder? Just curious.


Rossi, I cant afford a real brand much as I would like to.


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## Coomba (Jul 12, 2015)

Fellas I'm uploading a video to dailymotion now. Its gonna take about an hour. I did one but it was incomplete because they had not varied my email.


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## Coomba (Jul 13, 2015)

Coomba said:


> Fellas I'm uploading a video to dailymotion now. Its gonna take about an hour. I did one but it was incomplete because they had not varied my email.


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## roadie33 (Jul 13, 2015)

That is shoddy Quality Control.
I wouldn't buy one of those mills if that's what they send. Twice.
I'd definitely want my money back and free shipping back to them.


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## chevydyl (Jul 13, 2015)

The old adage goes, you get what you pay for lol, been there done that..... even buying something local for a couple hundreds bucks more than trying to save money buying online goes far for customer support, I purchased both my welders new from a local shop, one a thermal arc and the other a miller tig, both were cheaper than any online store


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## Coomba (Jul 13, 2015)

JimDawson said:


> Go ahead and post your video, if it violates the Forum rules we can always block it.  Factual experiences with vendors both good and bad are always welcome.


What happened to my video? Was it not factual?


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## JimDawson (Jul 13, 2015)

Your video was factual, no problem there.  I'll PM you.


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## chevydyl (Jul 13, 2015)

Yeah what happened, I wanna see it


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## JimDawson (Jul 13, 2015)

chevydyl said:


> Yeah what happened, I wanna see it




The video is being reviewed by the staff.


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## Bill Gruby (Jul 13, 2015)

Charter Oak Automation is located in New Haven Ct. They are in the middle of a move to a larger facility which may explain the lack of communications. They are not an importer, they manufacture the products.

http://charteroakautomation.com/

"Billy G"

 Coomba-- You have a PM.


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## kvt (Jul 13, 2015)

Ok,   I have just been reading through some of this thread,  and if his documented problems are valid, then the company should talk to him.  If not then, that is bad on the company.   I can see that the PMs are reviewing the video.  I hope we can see it or at least more of what the problems seem to be.


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## jmanatee (Jul 13, 2015)

I searched up your video,...  All I can say is WOW.  I would want my money back.


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## johnnyc14 (Jul 13, 2015)

jmanatee said:


> I searched up your video,...  All I can say is WOW.  I would want my money back.



Me too!


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## Bill Gruby (Jul 13, 2015)

You can see the video now. We felt it would be OK till someone complains. You will find it in post #13.

"Billy G"


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## ogberi (Jul 13, 2015)

Wow... Just...wow.


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## Bill C. (Jul 13, 2015)

Coomba said:


> Ok great. Let me lay a little ground work. In Feb of 2015 I purchased a 12z  mill, the steel stand and a chip pan from Charter Oak Automation. The first thing I noticed about the mill is that the slots cut for the t bolts on the table were cut in steps. I'm very new to machining so I posted a picture on this forum to ask for your thoughts.( Feb 5th New mill issue) Most said to send it back. But you have to understand my shop is on the second floor of my barn, and it has to lifted by a hand hoist then I need to rent a engine lift to get it on the stand. Also its a 50 mile trip to pick it up. So after contacting Charter Oak they agreed to send me a two axis DRO, WOW!  It still has not arrived even after many calls. Skip forward now to March. The gear on the handle to raise and lower the head is now stripped. The mill is now non functioning. I contact Charter Oak Automation and the do agree to send out a second mill. I receive the mill lift it to my shop set it in place and when cleaning it up was just blown away. So I made a video to show them all the problems. Now I do admit that some are very minor, but as you will see this mill should never have left there warehouse. Absolutely zero quality control. Hope this video works,
> I can't seem to figure out how to post this video from my computer to this post.



What kind of warranty came with it?  You may need to contact your state's consumer protection department if they can't get this problem fixed.  I hate it when something like this happens.


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## brav65 (Jul 13, 2015)

Bummer about your mill. Bill Miller has one and it looked like a great Mill. He got greate service from Paul as well. Let's hope they reach out to you to resolve the issue. I would think a replacement mill is in order.


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## wrmiller (Jul 13, 2015)

brav65 said:


> Bummer about your mill. Bill Miller has one and it looked like a great Mill. He got greate service from Paul as well. Let's hope they reach out to you to resolve the issue. I would think a replacement mill is in order.



I wouldn't call it a "great mill", but rather 'pretty good', as it does everything I ask of it and then some. Mine too came with loose screws, miss-alignments, and whatnot, but I expected as much so didn't complain about that and just fixed everything. You get what you pay for, especially coming from China, and I knew going in that I didn't buy some top-of-the-line machine. 

 I went through everything, and I mean everything on mine, as I am not naive enough to think that this thing would be ready to run out of the box. I pulled all of the screw supports/end caps for inspection and cleanup as miss-alignment on these components can easily cause binding. I pulled all of the gibbs  and cleaned thoroughly then de-burred and stoned them. Then I oiled all the ways and set the gibbs. I did this before even attempting to move the table. Afterwards, I noticed some binding on the Y-axis in one direction only. Turned out the bronze nut was loose and there was some damage to it. Got a new screw and nut from Paul and fixed that. That was the biggest issue I have had with the mill so far and I've been beating on this thing since early this year.

Now...having said all of that, I don't have any voids that are visible to me (I think I saw one on the underside of the saddle when I had everything apart building the one-shot oiling system), and that would have been a deal breaker for me. Same for the noise in the headstock/gearbox, as that too would have been a Big No-No and would have had to go back. Coolidge here had to get a second machine as his first one was having issues. I consider myself lucky in this regard.

It has been a while, but every time I had a question or needed something, Paul always helped me out. Now sometimes he didn't respond to my emails right away (some responses took a week or more), but he always got back to me. I would expect him to do the same for all of his customers.


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## coolidge (Jul 13, 2015)

Some of this stuff looks minor to me and things I would take care of as part of new machine clean up, inspection, and setup.

1. Loose screws, smashed way cover, casting voids - okay annoying so be annoyed then have CO send out a new way cover and tighten the screws. Yes the casting voids are cosmetic warts, they diminish the hey look at my shiny new machine experience but they are only cosmetic. If the machine checks out in the really important areas I wouldn't go through the trouble of sending the machine back just for a cosmetic flaw. I also have a few voids down in the bottom of my T slots, my opinion was okay that's CHINA in this price range. The void on the front of the saddle, yeah pretty annoying but again not worth returning the machine imo.

2. Y axis stiff to turn - First was the Y axis cleaned, oiled, and adjusted properly? Ways, saddle, gib, ACME screw, brass nut? This is part of the new machine setup and if done the ACME screw or nut would have to be defective for it to be stiff. Also I would make sure the Y axis gib locks which hide under the table did not jam/bend when the table was cranked forward, don't ask me how I know this can happen (face palm).

3. X axis clicking, that's pretty weird. I'd make sure it wasn't the crank handle. I have had that entire assembly apart, there's not much there its pretty simple. Some precision ground spacers and a couple flat thrust bearings. After cleaning and adjusting the brass nut for zero backlash I'd check to see if there was any backlash in the crank handle.

Side note on X, Y axis ease of cranking. This may be an area where CO is damned if they do or damned if they don't. If they leave adjusted loose and easy to crank people complain of backlash. If they adjust them snug to reduce backlash when they thing is packed full of sticky shipping grease they may not crank easy. Just saying.

4. Shifting into gear difficult - as a new machinist he may not know that you have to turn the spindle a bit to engage the gears when changing gears and let the lever find its spot. Those levers are not precise with the front panel, put in gear properly the lever may not line up exactly with the marks painted on the front panel. It sounds like its not centered on the gear and rubbing on another gear. If you can engage the gear properly and there's no rubbing/clicking on another gear, but the lever isn't exactly centered on the front panel indicator then no big deal. If it continues to grind on another gear with the lever wobbling then okay, something is wrong there and I might be looking to return the mill. As for the shift lever rubbing on the front panel mine does that to, that's not exactly a precision fit. Clearly they could machine some off the back of the lever or use a thinner front panel to create more clearance but its another cosmetic issue. Design you're own thinner front panel with FrontPanelExpress software and pimp that mill out!!

5. Electrical - This is one of my zero tolerance areas, the electrical should be 100% perfect out of the crate. High quality cord locks of the proper size cost like $2 for crying out loud. And use some good quality rubber flex cord. And make sure all the terminal nuts are tight and crimps are solid. Its not just CO I have had to go through quite a few machines electrical fixing and tightening shoddy work.

*Putting things into context* - this mill is made in China and cost $2,350. Personally I have learned to lower my expectations of machines from China in this price range so nothing much surprises me. It still irritates me but I just plan to have to fix and adjust things and overlook some cosmetic flaws. There are a couple of important design differences, the CO 12z for example gives you the largest work cube in this price range at 12x26. Compare that to the similar priced Grizzly G0755 at 8 x 17. The Z axis saddle is also massive, longer engaging a lot more of the Z axis ways and the round contact area where the head engages the Z axis saddle is both much larger and thicker e.g. more rigid than on the Grizzly.

The most important areas to pay attention to on these benchtop mills of any brand, the real deal breakers for me are is the table flat and are the ways ground straight and true. These machines are notorious for crap ways with tight and loose spots.

If you think these kinds of things can't happen on more expensive machines...my brother and his company are going round and round with Mori Sieki on a brand new $200,000 CNC lathe, the Y axis is rusting and pitting badly.


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## george wilson (Jul 13, 2015)

For whatever it's worth,I had a 1960's Heald USA made horizontal mill in the toolmaker's shop. It had a void or 2 on top of  the dovetail on thre knew that had lead pounded into the void. A little smaller than a dime. I was surprised to see it on an older American machine.

The Millwork shop got a $30,000.00 Northfield thickness planer,made in Washington State. It had voids in the table filled with epoxy.

I'd be most concerned with noise and vibrating lever in the gear head. Having to replace bad bearings is going to be a  major pain. And,the noisy bearing might affect the finish that the machine can deliver when cutting metal.

I expect the clicking when backing out the X axis handle is a thrust bearing that needs adjustment. The tight cross slide may be a mis aligned leadscrew nut,which is a more serious problem. And BEWARE! I bought a nearly NEW  Enco turret mill for a spare unit which had nuts threaded so SHALLOW,the leadscrew jumped the threads in the nuts!! I sear,the nuts were only threaded about .015" deep. And,I am a professional machinist,now retired. I got rid of it.

Fortunately, I bought my other machines back when they were made in Taiwan. But,today,even Taiwan uses some parts and castings made in China. But,quality control,while still not perfect,is better. And,Taiwan made machines cost more than Chinese.


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## wrmiller (Jul 13, 2015)

coolidge said:


> The most important areas to pay attention to on these benchtop mills of any brand, the real deal breakers for me are is the table flat and are the ways ground straight and true. These machines are notorious for crap ways with tight and loose spots.
> 
> If you think these kinds of things can't happen on more expensive machines...my brother and his company are going round and round with Mori Sieki on a brand new $200,000 CNC lathe, the Y axis is rusting and pitting badly.



Agreed coolidge. After cleanup and reassembly one of the first things I checked was the table. I was pleasantly surprised to say the least (VERY flat). And I have no bind/loose on the ways. When I got my 1340GT (Taiwan) there were some niggling things I had to address, so even on a much more expensive machine there were still some issues.

I probably will never own/buy a machine that doesn't need something fixed/adjusted/cleaned.


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## jbolt (Jul 13, 2015)

coolidge said:


> 4. Shifting into gear difficult - as a new machinist he may not know that you have to turn the spindle a bit to engage the gears when changing gears and let the lever find its spot. Those levers are not precise with the front panel, put in gear properly the lever may not line up exactly with the marks painted on the front panel. It sounds like its not centered on the gear and rubbing on another gear. If you can engage the gear properly and there's no rubbing/clicking on another gear, but the lever isn't exactly centered on the front panel indicator then no big deal. If it continues to grind on another gear with the lever wobbling then okay, something is wrong there and I might be looking to return the mill. As for the shift lever rubbing on the front panel mine does that to, that's not exactly a precision fit. Clearly they could machine some off the back of the lever or use a thinner front panel to create more clearance but its another cosmetic issue. Design you're own thinner front panel with FrontPanelExpress software and pimp that mill out!!



It is quite possible that in trying to force the gears into place that something in the lever/yolk assembly of the shifter has been moved out of alignment causing the vibration. From the video that appears to me to be gears rubbing.

As a side note, the levers on theses machines are typically installed by drilling a hole through the lever body and the shaft at the same time after the gear head is assembled and then, using a pin or roll pin to hold in place. No two are done exactly the same. A fiber washer during assembly would go a long way in avoiding the rubbing.


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## wrmiller (Jul 13, 2015)

Yes, they are simply held on by a roll pin. And shifting those levers was never precise IIRC. I fixed that with a gross-overkill of gutting the head and installing a belt drive.


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## coolidge (Jul 13, 2015)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## coolidge (Jul 13, 2015)

jbolt said:


> It is quite possible that in trying to force the gears into place that something in the lever/yolk assembly of the shifter has been moved out of alignment causing the vibration. From the video that appears to me to be gears rubbing.
> 
> As a side note, the levers on theses machines are typically installed by drilling a hole through the lever body and the shaft at the same time after the gear head is assembled and then, using a pin or roll pin to hold in place. No two are done exactly the same. A fiber washer during assembly would go a long way in avoiding the rubbing.



A fiber washer is a good idea, I want to say my mill of old 9 years ago had a washer under there. He may have a defective gear head, the one on my first 12z was dodgy the right hand lever would actually move too far to the right and lock up the entire head. Positioned as best as I could position it still wobbled back and forth like his does in the video. If he still has the first mill I'd check to see if CO was okay with swapping the heads.


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## tomh (Jul 13, 2015)

My Bridgeport  and my g0730  makes That clicking noise when cranking at a rapid pace  as does the mills at the college, it's in the handles. 
As for  the casting voids well that's part of foundry work, AS  long as they are not in a critical area or affecting the function or accuracy.  You cant  remelt all castings or you would never get anything out and the price would be prohibitive. ( people who have worked in a foundry understand this) Remember that we buy these imports because we cant afford the high quality machines like Bridgeport and monarch and this is the price we pay to play.    Many manufacturers hide the voids with dondo, its a common practice, unless we strip the paint off of them we  will never know.  My old D.E> whiten gear cutter  ( my avatar ) was loaded with lead, as was many of the old machines I have rebuilt .  As for the lead screws binding well that could be anything  from loose screws to tight gibs and needs to be looked into further.  *Now the gear noise and the vibrating in the head stock is a problem that should be fixed to your satisfaction!  the rest is cosmetic.  *


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## jbolt (Jul 13, 2015)

coolidge said:


> A fiber washer is a good idea, I want to say my mill of old 9 years ago had a washer under there. He may have a defective gear head, the one on my first 12z was dodgy the right hand lever would actually move too far to the right and lock up the entire head. Positioned as best as I could position it still wobbled back and forth like his does in the video. If he still has the first mill I'd check to see if CO was okay with swapping the heads.



The gears that move are indexed by a sprung ball and detent. If the gears are properly indexing and there is vibration/rubbing then it may be more serious. The transmission is pretty simple and I would not have any reservations pulling it apart to find the problem, fixing it and moving on. I can totally understand being frustrated with issues on a new machine but as along time owner of Chinese made machines I have come to accept there will be issues I need to deal with. 

I don't know what the issue was with his first machine but I am surprised they went as far as send a whole new machine. Typical response would be to send a replacement part.

Back when I was building homes I always got a kick out of replacing $50 Moen faucet (which you could still get parts for) that had lasted 50 years with a $800 European faucet would only last about a year.


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## chips&more (Jul 13, 2015)

Sorry to hear. I try and avoid anything that is import for my shop within reason and reputation of source. I love old USA iron. You will not see a burnt video from me because of old USA iron. That being said, It may be a better choice fixing up old USA iron than to buy new China crap. Yes, you will get your hands dirty and you could find yourself saying at times “I made a big mistake buying this project”. But when all the dust settles down. You can proudly say you restored it and it will last your lifetime…Good Luck, Dave.


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## Coomba (Jul 13, 2015)

Hey guys I have just been informed that some how two videos have been posted. The one you should view is named Charter Oak milling machine and is 5 .57 minutes in length.


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## toolman (Jul 13, 2015)

FWIW, I would try to get a full refund and go buy a Grizzly. At least they stand behind their stuff.  That is ****-poor customer service and quality.


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## Sandia (Jul 13, 2015)

I would demand a refund, and then I would look for another brand.


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## Coomba (Jul 14, 2015)

Like I said before I'm just starting out so there is a lot I don't know. I did take the machine apart clean, and oil it. I didn't want to take apart anything else because, with my luck they would tell me I voided the warranty. I do realize that I would have to fix up a few things, that's not a problem. I was told that when these mills come in, they are inspected, and the main bearings are replaced with a much higher quality bearing. I know now that when they come in, they are just forwarded to the customers, without even being looked at. I mean how does one justify sending out a mill in that condition. Especially a second replacement mill. I have tried to negotiate but that didn't happen.  I've made several attempts to contact them with no reply. In my very last e-mail I asked just what they would do for me, and still no reply.  Remember this has been going on now for about seven months. Now I have two machines. I can tear them both down and make one good machine, assuming all the parts are good, or sell them and buy something else. A barrel of fine cognac sounds good about now. I know the machine is build in China and the workmanship is not there, but dog it, Charter Oak is an American company and they need to have some pride. Several guys have talked about a flat table. This is something that I have no Ideal about. Would someone explain the procedure to find this out.  Thanks.


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## joshua43214 (Jul 14, 2015)

Please do not take this wrong, but I think you are expecting too much on some of your issues. Even though the CO machine is comparatively expensive, it is still a cheap import. The difference is that CO supposedly does all the finishing work in America, and you get the largest work envelope of any machine of similar size. Like all cheap imports, it must be taken apart, cleaned, de-burred, and adjusted.

Near as I can tell, you have only one possible real issue - the noise from the gear box and with wobbling handle. This machine will always be noisy, it is the nature of gear hear machines. Just take the apart and find out what the problem is. Most likely two gears are rubbing, just de-bur and adjust. A video of the sound and wobble is not enough to figure out what the problem is, you need to open the machine up and inspect. Maybe you just need to clean some stuff up, maybe it needs a new gear, maybe the holes in the casting are drilled wrong. CO needs to know this so they know how to service you.  

Loose screws are GOOD! These Chinese machines are renowned for having crappy screws and poor castings. Back in the good old days, they came with everything over-tightened and you had to replace all the screws and re-tap a lot of holes. Loose screws mean you can safely dismantle the machine (which you should always do with an import), clean and reassemble with out hassle.

The ticking on the handle is probably the handle itself, or the alignment of the union between the handle and the screw. Many machines do this. It should have no effect on the quality of the cut unless there is a large mis-alignment and a power feed is used.

Tight table is just an adjustment. As long as it does not go loose/tight/loose of get tighter as you travel is it fine. Adjust the machine and be done.

Casting voids are harmless. This is one place in particular that you are asking too much. The best and most expensive milling machines on the planet have voids, normally they are filled with lead or body putty depending on where the void is, and painted over. The only areas that need to be void free are the milled/ground surfaces.

Now I understand that you are trying to make a case for getting a defective machine, but complaining about the minor items only sends a message to the company that you are not familiar with the machine and they will label you as a "problem customer." Every company has a different way of dealing with a problem customer. Getting ignored is the most common. Honestly, if I was Charter Oak and saw this video, I would send a truck around to collect the machines and hand you a check for a full refund since I know I could never make you happy.

I know you are unhappy with your mill, I am feeling the same way about my Sieg SC8 lathe. I daily regret my purchase, and I suspect that I will be selling it soon and replacing it with anything else. Sieg seems to have issues cutting gears that are on center. If the gears in your mill are made in the same factory as those in my lathe, you might find some have >0.010" run-out making them mesh improperly.

-Josh


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## RJSakowski (Jul 14, 2015)

Coomba said:


> Now I have two machines. I can tear them both down and make one good machine, assuming all the parts are good, or sell them and buy something else.


  Wait a minute!  You have two machines in your possession and they're not asking for a return?  That doesn't sound like too bad a deal to me.  Sure it sucks that you can purchase a new piece of equipment and have to go through a rebuild before you can use it and I totally understand your frustration, having gone through it myself a number of times. but a half price machine? And a 2 axis DRO as well?

As far as the Chinese manufacturers and American importers go, yours is not an isolated problem.

A large and well known company who claim to have their Q.C. inspectors overseas as well as here in the States have their share of problems too.  At work we bought a gear driven power head similar in design to yours and the gear positions marked on the power head face plate didn't match the actual position, both in orientation and spacing (engineering change w/o proper follow-through).  The key for the R8 arbor was a dog point set screw which had no provision for locking in place and worked its way deeper to the point of preventing insertion of the R8 tooling (poor design). A lathe from the same company had belts that couldn't be installed, a lash adjustment set  screw missing , a gear box input shaft with a key inserted backwards, damaging the shaft and cracking the spacer (improper assembly), and  change gears that were a press fit instead of a slip fit (poor Q.C.). Some of the problems, we just fixed.  We remarked the face plate to indicate proper gear shift positions. The missing set screw were promptly sent out with a call to their customer service, as were replacement belts of a slightly longer length.

We ordered a horizontal band saw from major machine tool supplier, and received one branded by another well known supplier.  The power switch was wired with the line and load connected together so the saw couldn't be turned off (poor training/work instructions and poor Q.C.).  I won't even go into small items.

I guess the point is we have several choices we can make, we can buy new and cheap, expecting problems; we can buy used quality machines and deal with all the issues of years of wear and tear and misuse, or we can shell out big bucks to get quality machines (not without their problems too).

If you truly do have two machines, I would suggest that you fire up the first and see if you have the same issues with your power head gears.  If so, it may indicate a design issue.  If not , you could tear into the second machine to see if it is an adjustment issue.  Worst case, the power head can be swapped out  which also solves your faceplate cosmetic issue. A new gear for your lift can be procured and you have two mills, one not so good which you can sell or whatever.  Cosmetic defects like casting voids on non wear surfaces can be easily fixed with some epoxy and paint.  BTW, the problem with the Tee slot is not major either. I expect it was due to a repositioning of the table when cutting the slots.  Tee slots are for fixing the workpiece.  If you choose to use it as a reference surface, as in locating a milling vice, you should take a skim cut to true the front surface; it isn't necessary on both.  A few thousandths removed will not affect the strength of the Tee slot in a significant manner.

Bob


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## wrmiller (Jul 14, 2015)

Coomba said:


> Like I said before I'm just starting out so there is a lot I don't know. I did take the machine apart clean, and oil it. I didn't want to take apart anything else because, with my luck they would tell me I voided the warranty. I do realize that I would have to fix up a few things, that's not a problem. I was told that when these mills come in, they are inspected, and the main bearings are replaced with a much higher quality bearing. I know now that when they come in, they are just forwarded to the customers, without even being looked at. I mean how does one justify sending out a mill in that condition. Especially a second replacement mill. I have tried to negotiate but that didn't happen.  I've made several attempts to contact them with no reply. In my very last e-mail I asked just what they would do for me, and still no reply.  Remember this has been going on now for about seven months. Now I have two machines. I can tear them both down and make one good machine, assuming all the parts are good, or sell them and buy something else. A barrel of fine cognac sounds good about now. I know the machine is build in China and the workmanship is not there, but dog it, Charter Oak is an American company and they need to have some pride. Several guys have talked about a flat table. This is something that I have no Ideal about. Would someone explain the procedure to find this out.  Thanks.



I pretty much came to the same conclusion as you in that if these machines are inspected, then a blind man must be doing it. They DID replace the spindle bearings in mine, as part of the 3hp motor upgrade, as evidenced by the blue 'sealing-stuff-that-doesn't-seal-very-well' goop on the top plate. I was told that they have "non-factory employees" at various points in the manufacturing process doing inspections, but I find that hard to believe given the shape these machines are showing up at customers in. I cringe when I hear that someone new to this stuff buys a machine because I have only seen ONE machine that didn't need stuff done to it to get it right and it was expensive as all get out. (I have a neighbor that bought a BP mill that will require thousands of dollars that he doesn't have to make functional and he just wants to take it out to a field and blow it up)

I'm too far away to do a weekend run or two, or three, to help sort this out (I would prefer a good single-malt though). Are there any machine/machinist types in your area that could maybe help out? I like the idea of using both machines to make one functional one, but given these machines parentage I suspect that this would involve a lot of trial-and-error, hand fitment, application of a BFH, etc. to make it work and it would help to have someone with some experience at this looking over your shoulder. Helping would be even better. And I would be doing a lot of measuring to make sure this jigsaw puzzle works correctly. For example, to test the flatness of the table I have a fixture that goes in the spindle (via a collet) and I attach a dial indicator to it. Run the head down so the DI touches the table and move the table full length over X and Y (watch out for the t-slots when translating in Y) and read the dial. Mine never moved. I would test all axis movement to make sure the machine is running as close to true as possible.


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## tomh (Jul 14, 2015)

*
Now I have two machines ?????? *

*Are you saying that you have the first machine they sent you also?*
Did they not request the first to be sent back?
Please explain this in more detail so we can get a clear understanding of why they are not communicating with you.


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## coolidge (Jul 14, 2015)

That they claim to inspect these machines is a valid gripe. They obviously either don't inspect them or their inspection process is lacking.

Experience is key here. When I ordered my 1st machine I gave them a list of issues I had experienced on a previous machine of this type years ago. I told them if you ship me a machine with any of these issues the machine will be returned for a refund so do yourself a favor and don't ship me a machine with these issues in the first place.

So the 1st machine arrived and had a whole set of new quality issues that were not on my list arrrgh!

1. There was rust everywhere in particular the X axis ACME screw was never lubed at the factory and was so rusted it had to be replaced.
2. The micro feed was defective.
3. The cord grip on the motor (Leeson 3hp) did not fit the extra thick threaded Leeson electrical box and just popped off.
4. The head had some kind of defect allowing the shift lever to move too far and lock the gears up, this faulted out the VFD.
5. The head shift lever when adjusted as best as I could adjust it still wobbled.

They sent me a new X axis screw/nut, micro feed, I purchased the correct cord grip from McMasters (they offered to reimburse me) and I set about fixing this stuff. I was NOT happy having to make these repairs but vs returning the mill and waiting a couple months for a replacement I decided to do the repairs.

Then I finally got around to checking the ways and the Y axis ways were tapered .005 over 10 inches, that was one of the deal breakers I had discussed with them before ordering. We both threw in the towel at that point and they shipped me a new machine. I gave them a choice, return the 1st mill issue a full refund including shipping or ship me a 2nd machine with the understanding that if it had any of these issues the 2nd machine would also be returned and I would be done with them. In other words inspect this 2nd machine carefully. I gave them a specific list of quality checks to perform before they shipped the 2nd machine that included my previous list of issues and all the new ones. They did complete my quality check list and a few more things they decided to check. Could the inspect every machine to that level and still make money on the sale, I don't know.

The lesson here is to SET EXPECTATIONS up front at the time of purchase and control the transaction. Both sides understand what happens if those expectations are not met, as I had done this there really wasn't any debate when the 1st machine had issues. No months long email tug of war. No negotiation.

I will say throughout the process Paul and I worked well together. He threw in some freebies for my trouble a couple of times. Email replies were not always immediate, they are running a business I get that, but I never got the feeling they were ignoring me. We discussed some of their frustration with the factory. It seems like with each new shipment they had implemented steps at the factory to resolve issues they had found with the previous shipment but then a new issue would surface. I do feel they are making incremental improvements over time.


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## markknx (Jul 14, 2015)

OK guys I get the whole it is an import Chinese machine thing. I also know that the first thing you need to do on these machines and even more expensive ones is a good clean and tune. I even feel many of Coomba's issues would go away with a good clean and tune. But one must say that the amount of issues on this one machine speaks volumes to the lack of QC over at CO.  This said I also am unclear about if he has both machines still if so I think I would swap out parts till I had one nice machine, tear down the head of the noisy one see if I could get rid of the noise and use that mill for rough work, a drill press or even as a second mill if I could make it a fair machine. Not to sat this does not make me see CO a little different. Just saying Coomba may be able to make some lemonade out of theses lemons.
Pulling the right side lever and milling the block down .010-.020 would solve that issue Quick enough. As stated let us know if you have both and get to keep them.
Mark


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## brino (Jul 14, 2015)

.....an interesting read. A lot of well-thought out responses, and some great examples.

I can sure understand Coomba's frustration and disappointment. To me $2,350 (Coolidge's figure) is a big cost. I would expect a decent quality, fully functional machine for that money. Something that comes out of the box, and with minor cleaning and lube could be put to work nearly immediately making quality parts.

I also see lots of people willing to compromise; some of those things are minor, and Coomba calls them such! Personally, I (hopefully!) would not have cranked that level hard enough to scratch the faceplate, I'd have noticed the interference, *****ed about it and readjusted it.

However that x-feed noise? Could be minor(feed handle), could be bigger(bearing or nut), we won't know until it's investigated.
That lever shake and spindle noise........wow. Not likely going to make quality parts like that.....

And coolidge's statement:


coolidge said:


> Then I finally got around to checking the ways and the Y axis ways were tapered .005 over 10 inches, that was one of the deal breakers I had discussed with them before ordering.


Holy crap, that's waaay off!   A "deal breaker" is putting it mildly! 
That was on his initial list of issue due to previous experience.
To me, a customer having to specify that the ways should not be tapered is far outside of all reasonable expectations!

If I'm buying a milling machine, it should out-of-the box operate as a milling machine...and being accurate is inherent in that!
And the more money I pay the more accurate it should be. At this price I would want/expect less than 1 thou. over the working range.

But how does a newbie set expectations properly? Their own and the suppliers.
Should a newbie not even consider a machine at this price-point, but be forced to pay double to have someone actually test/inspect it knowing that a newbie owner won't know how to evaluate or adjust/tweak it properly? What suppliers offer that "extra" service?
Should the supplier not sell to an inexperienced buyer?

The whole discussion makes me shudder about buying anything new. 
Even if issues do eventually get fixed who has the time for months of back-and-forth? What's that cost?
At least if I do get burned on a "used" purchase: 1) I'm not out the price of a new machine, and 2) I know that I am to blame due to lack of inspection/test. It almost seems the only way to set expectations properly...but that opinion has come from experience too.....

Thanks for all the discussions!
Coomba, I sincerely hope you can get to an acceptable resolution.

-brino


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## wrmiller (Jul 14, 2015)

I've not heard of a machine yet that can be bought for $2k (roughly) and "out of the box" hold a thou over it's working range. Not even close. You won't get that out of a worn/used machine either. I don't care where it's made. Brand new BPs don't even advertise one-thou tolerance, and no experienced machinist I know would expect that.


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## brino (Jul 14, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> I've not heard of a machine yet that can be bought for $2k (roughly) and "out of the box" hold a thou over it's working range. Not even close. You won't get that out of a worn/used machine either. I don't care where it's made. Brand new BPs don't even advertise one-thou tolerance, and no experienced machinist I know would expect that.



Bill, Thanks for the response!

I sure do NOT consider myself an "experienced machinist"; please help set my expectations, have you got any references?
The Bridgeport website and brochures seem tight lipped on any claims of accuracy, precision, repeatability.
This is why setting expectations is so difficult.

...and no, I would not expect that from used/worn machines, what I said (or tried to say) was that I expect a price/precision trade-off, the more I pay the more precise. For used machine I expect to pay less, and expect to get less precision due to wear, but at least my expectations may be met.

-brino


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## chips&more (Jul 14, 2015)

And then the Imports have the audacity to say they are ISO certified! That tells me that being ISO certified is just a consumer buzz phrase trap…Dave


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## toolman (Jul 14, 2015)

FWIW, ENCO has several on sale right now including the Rong Fu machines. I almost bought one used a couple of years ago before deciding to get a larger machine, but it was a nice little mill that ran really quite and smooth.


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## joshua43214 (Jul 14, 2015)

brino said:


> But how does a newbie set expectations properly? Their own and the suppliers.
> Should a newbie not even consider a machine at this price-point, but be forced to pay double to have someone actually test/inspect it knowing that a newbie owner won't know how to evaluate or adjust/tweak it properly? What suppliers offer that "extra" service?
> Should the supplier not sell to an inexperienced buyer?
> 
> -brino



The very legitimate gripe here is that CO charges far more for the same basic machine that any one else. My understanding is that the company changed hands in the last year or so. In the past, they justified the extra cost by doing all the finishing work here in America, and they have a truly massive work envelope. It looks like the new company is doing all the extra inspection in China now and not passing on the savings.

I do feel the OP's pain. I also tend to get anal retentive over details. I also understand that I would have to shell out >$40,000.00 for a mill that would make me happy. The buyer should always beware whether you are buying a lab grade mill, or a cheap import, and expectations should be set appropriately. There is no such thing as a "precision" Chinese machine, period. Once you accept this, life is much easier.

When I was looking for a mill, the CO was very high on my list. Further research found that people were having some issues with the mill not living up to advertised expectations. I went with a Precision Matthews in the end and my only regret is that I wish I had a bigger mill 
It had an issue with the screw in the spindle, it has an imperfect pain job, it twists the column when I cut too deep, the quill is not reliable for deep boring with a boring head, and some other stuff. All minor, all with in my expectations. All for a good price from a good person.

-Josh


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## coolidge (Jul 14, 2015)

Brino in my research before purchasing the CO mill I found complaints on many other brands of this type of mill regarding the ways binding. This can happen when the ways are ground on a taper or more commonly imo when the ways are tight at each end and loose in the middle. One of the reasons I chose the CO mill was because they were aware of this issue and have been working with the factory to address this for a while. This is because they sell CNC versions of this mill and if the ways are binding that's a huge problem. So I figured I would go with a company that is at least aware of the problem and dealing with it vs some other brand that may not care because the mill is just a manual mill.

It would be my guess this problem is a lot more common across brands, its just that most people don't go to the trouble of disassembling, cleaning, adjusting the ways to a close tolerance, and testing for it. You can't really check this with a hand wheel crank you have too much leverage. You need to slide the table and Y/Z saddles back and forth by hand after adjusting the gibs to a slight drag fit with the screw disengaged. The drag should be slight and consistent across the full travel of the axis. Any loose or tight spots will stick out like a sore thumb when you do this by hand, then you get the dial indicator out and confirm.

Maybe for most manual milling operations it doesn't matter but I was thinking of converting this mill to CNC which is why I specified this and checked it. Its worth noting that the ways on my first RongFu 45 mill I purchased maybe 8-9 years ago were so bad I ended up having it hauled to the scrap yard, I would not sell it to someone else it was that bad.


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## coolidge (Jul 14, 2015)

brino said:


> But how does a newbie set expectations properly? Their own and the suppliers.
> -brino



They visit the Hobby Machinist forum first!


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## coolidge (Jul 14, 2015)

joshua43214 said:


> The very legitimate gripe here is that CO charges far more for the same basic machine that any one else.-Josh



For example? At $2,350 its actually less expensive than many mills in its class while offering a much larger work cube and is substantially beefed up in areas where competing mills are still weak and puny. I'd like to see 1-2 examples that compare that are less expensive. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I think we need to be fair to CO.

Here's something to consider and was another reason I chose to go with the CO mill. You really can't judge how massive this mill is until you see it in person. There's a reason Bill named his El Hefe. I have owned a RongFu 45 mill before, the CO 12z is much larger. My 29hp diesel Kubota tractor front end loader couldn't even lift the thing off the pallet to which I replied 

Are there quality issues yes, is it over priced at $2,400 I say no. Just realize you are buying a $2,400 mill made in China not a knee mill costing 2-5 times the price.


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## wrmiller (Jul 14, 2015)

Not picking on you Josh, but unless you've driven a 12Z you don't know what you're talking about. This thing has a bunch more mass/rigidity than any of the other rf45s I've seen/used. Matt's new 9x40 is probably the closest I've seen but I'm reserving judgement until I see one.


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## wrmiller (Jul 14, 2015)

brino said:


> Bill, Thanks for the response!
> 
> I sure do NOT consider myself an "experienced machinist"; please help set my expectations, have you got any references?
> The Bridgeport website and brochures seem tight lipped on any claims of accuracy, precision, repeatability.
> ...



Hey Brino,

No references written down, sorry. My comment was based on my actually measuring on various machines and talking to guys with WAY more experience than I doing the same thing. Example: In setting up my PM1340GT I managed to get under a half thou taper across about 10" or so IIRC. To hold that over the entire 40" of the center-to-center working range? Impossible. Nor, is it ever needed. As others here would tell you, if you need to hold that kind of tolerance you should be doing cylindrical grinding or whatever it's called. 

OP: Sorry for the hijack, I will not post any more unless it's on topic.


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## wlburton (Jul 14, 2015)

This thread is extremely informative to a fledgling hobby machinist thinking about buying a milling machine (like me).  Thanks for all the voices of experience who have weighed in!  You've put into great perspective the role of expectations and the ability to identify and rectify issues with this type of machine (or any machine, apparently).  One concern I have is that if I bought a machine, say from Grizzly or Precision Matthews, I wouldn't be in a good position to judge what was okay or at least normal and what was something that would need to be dealt with as a warranty issue (other than things which were extremely obvious).  I think I will make it my business to educate myself a little more about critical and non-critical defects before I jump into ordering a machine--and this thread has gotten me off to a good start.

Bill


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## brino (Jul 14, 2015)

wlburton said:


> This thread is extremely informative



I absolutely agree.

And I do NOT think we are too far off topic, as Coomba did ask how to evaluate a mill. 
wrmiller discussed checking the table for flat in post #45.
Coolidge covered testing/adjusting the ways in post #55. 

Thanks All!
-brino


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## joshua43214 (Jul 14, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> Not picking on you Josh, but unless you've driven a 12Z you don't know what you're talking about. This thing has a bunch more mass/rigidity than any of the other rf45s I've seen/used. Matt's new 9x40 is probably the closest I've seen but I'm reserving judgement until I see one.



I follow you.
My point is that this is just 800lb benchtop RF clone with an over-sized work envelope. You can buy this same basic machine for under $2k at Grizzly or anywhere else. CO's big selling point was better quality control, in house finishing, bigger work envelope, and turn key accessories like DRO's and CNC. CO is not the only company that works with the factory, QMC, DroPros, Grizzly, and many others also do the same. A bigger work envelope does not equal a bigger machine. 
Matt's PM45 (this seems to be the gold standard for cheap imports around here) weighs 300lbs more and costs the same. Matt's new 9x40 (the PM940) weighs 700lbs more than the CO and costs only a bit more.

Please understand, I am not criticizing the CO or a decision to buy it. I really wanted this machine, and I would still love to have it. I would rather have it than my current machine. I chose not to buy it because I can get a similar machine for far less, I have no intention of doing CNC, and I can just live with a smaller work envelope. If I really needed a machine with that capacity, I would have picked up a proper floor model mill, not a bench top machine.


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## coolidge (Jul 14, 2015)

wlburton said:


> This thread is extremely informative to a fledgling hobby machinist thinking about buying a milling machine (like me).  Thanks for all the voices of experience who have weighed in!  You've put into great perspective the role of expectations and the ability to identify and rectify issues with this type of machine (or any machine, apparently).  One concern I have is that if I bought a machine, say from Grizzly or Precision Matthews, I wouldn't be in a good position to judge what was okay or at least normal and what was something that would need to be dealt with as a warranty issue (other than things which were extremely obvious).  I think I will make it my business to educate myself a little more about critical and non-critical defects before I jump into ordering a machine--and this thread has gotten me off to a good start.
> 
> Bill



Good idea, we have all been there. 8-9 years ago as a noob I dove in head first and dropped $10,000 on a RongFu 45 CNC mill. 2 years later it was in a scrap yard. The mill was junk the CNC conversion was junk, the CNC seller flat out lied to me. Lesson learned.

I was on a machinist forum venting my frustration one day when a machinist gave me some advice I will never forget, "*You are buying a machine not a friend.*" That's a game some of these people who will sell you junk will play, they string you along acting like your friend and you don't want to confront the guy because he's trying to be your best friend. But when they have exhausted your good will then they drop you like a hot rock, refuse to take your call or answer email and you can't get your money back. Again lesson learned. So I treat any purchase now like a business transaction I don't get friendly with the seller. That's not a license to be a jackass though.


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## coolidge (Jul 14, 2015)

joshua43214 said:


> You can buy this same basic machine for under $2k at Grizzly or anywhere else.



No you can't, provide a link then.


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## markknx (Jul 14, 2015)

Bill, and the 9x40 seems to price out about the same. well once you figure the power feeds and stand. But I have seen neither machine.
Mark


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## joshua43214 (Jul 14, 2015)

coolidge said:


> No you can't, provide a link then.


http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Benchtop-Mill-Drill-with-Power-Feed-and-Tapping/G0761
800lb, 2hp, bench top RF clone. Even has power feed. Under 2k.

http://www.boltontool.com/Lathe/milling-machine/9-1-2-x-32-gear-head-milling-machine
800lb, 2hp, bench top RF clone, under $1700

Notice they all have the same faceplate and controls. They are all the same basic machine. I suspect you are thinking that a bigger work envelope is the same as a bigger better machine. Bigger machines weigh more. Anyone can add a big work table, you can even buy over sized tables on Ebay and make your own CO mill.


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## wrmiller (Jul 14, 2015)

The shipping weight on my mill was over 1200lbs, with a spindly steel stand that a 60 year old man easily pressed over his head. 'Maybe' 150 lbs. Maybe. Not a cast iron stand that is added to the total machine weight and adds little rigidity. And no, it's not "just" a larger envelope. The castings are significantly larger (how else are you going to get a larger work envelope?) and very well webbed. The head to column interface on this mill has to be seen to be believed. I have run several different RF clones and the 12Z and IMO they don't compare. Others may or may not agree, but that's what opinions are made of. Other than coolidge, who else here has run a 12Z? Or are we just comparing spec sheets? That practice, as others here have pointed out, is dubious at best.

Not trying to convince anyone here of anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some are just a bit more informed than others. I'll say no more on the subject.


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## coolidge (Jul 14, 2015)

joshua43214 said:


> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Benchtop-Mill-Drill-with-Power-Feed-and-Tapping/G0761
> 800lb, 2hp, bench top RF clone. Even has power feed. Under 2k.
> 
> http://www.boltontool.com/Lathe/milling-machine/9-1-2-x-32-gear-head-milling-machine
> ...



Neither of those machines compare to the CO 12z. You choose to ignore the much larger work cube and table but in the machine market its common the larger the work cube the more expensive the machine. You are also ignoring the design changes to the Z axis on the CO 12z which supports this larger work cube, both the mills you linked to still have the old style puny Z axis saddle. Come on the Y axis travel on the Grizzly is only 7.5 inches and only 6.8 inches on the Bolton vs 12 inches on the CO 12z.

Bah I won't debate this with you further.


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## coolidge (Jul 14, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> The shipping weight on my mill was over 1200lbs, with a spindly steel stand that a 60 year old man easily pressed over his head. 'Maybe' 150 lbs. Maybe. Not a cast iron stand that is added to the total machine weight and adds little rigidity. And no, it's not "just" a larger envelope. The castings are significantly larger (how else are you going to get a larger work envelope?) and very well webbed. The head to column interface on this mill has to be seen to be believed. I have run several different RF clones and the 12Z and IMO they don't compare. Others may or may not agree, but that's what opinions are made of. Other than coolidge, who else here has run a 12Z? Or are we just comparing spec sheets? That practice, as others here have pointed out, is dubious at best.
> 
> Not trying to convince anyone here of anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some are just a bit more informed than others. I'll say no more on the subject.



I have owned both machines so I'm just trying to give people accurate and honest information. I think most will agree you don't get all that beefed up cast iron, a much larger table, and a much larger work cube for free geesh. Do either of these linked machines have upgraded spindle bearings? My guess is no. Again I'm not a CO fanboy but lets be fair.


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## Coomba (Jul 14, 2015)

Ok let me address some of your questions, but first I have to say, some of what you guys talk about is miles above my head. I did a lot of research before buying this mill. Talking to different company's and picking their brains from what other people educated me in. And this was  the first places I visited. The reason I chose the 12Zjr. was because of its table size, weight, and it has a square column, which I was told was a big plus. Yes I do have two complete mills. Yes it would have saved a lot of trouble if they just would have sent the parts. I was told the 12Zjr. was the same exacts mill as the 12Z, but just a bit smaller. This proved not to be true when I tore it down to inspect it for the damaged. When I reported this back to Paul he was dumb founded . Guess they really know their machines. Maybe that's why the didn't just send the parts, they didn't know what they were. Believe me I know when you buy something from China your gonna be working on it right out of the box. This isn't my first duck hunt. Like I said before this was a replacement a second mill. Right now I'm kind of torn, I could sell both of these mills to replace my lost money, or I could  use the parts from both and make one, but then I think about some of the technical stuff you guys mention and I'm at a loss.  I have been talking to Matt at Precision Matthews and he has a little smaller mill which he says is much better quality then the CO. but cost a bit more. it the model PM450G  made in Taiwan. Has anyone heard of it?


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## joshua43214 (Jul 14, 2015)

Sorry, I am not trying to argue.
I can't speak for shipping weight, all I have is what Charter Oak claims.
According to the website, it weighs 770lbs. That is the weight of the typical RF square column clones.
http://charteroakautomation.com/our-products/manual-bed-mill/
I would say your 1200lb shipping weight included the stand and other junk.
Is the website not factual? It seems to me that if they where selling a 1200lb machine they would be advertising this.

This puts it solidly in the same class as the machines I linked. The work envelope is basically an accessory. I am pretty sure the fancy bearings cost an extra $800.00 and are part of the belt drive system, I might be wrong on this.

I am not trying to rain on any ones parade, I am just saying this is not some big heavy duty machine. It is just a middle weight bench top mill.


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## RJSakowski (Jul 14, 2015)

chips&more said:


> And then the Imports have the audacity to say they are ISO certified! That tells me that being ISO certified is just a consumer buzz phrase trap…Dave


ISO 9000 certification doesn't mean that you are making quality products, only that you make consistent products.  Now what ISO 9000 does require is continuous quality improvement, part of which is logging issues like customer complaints, taking positive steps to correct those issues, including identifying the root cause of the problem, and following up to ensure the problems don't reoccur.

ISO 9000, taken in the spirit which it is intended, is a powerful tool in the quest for improvement.  Unfortunately, for many companies, ISO 9000 is just another bureaucratic requirement that lip service is paid to.  As a company, we would ask for evidence of corrective and preventative action being implemented.  This forced our vendors to enter the complaints into their quality system documents.  Supposedly those are reviewed when the vendor has his outside audit.  I don't know if it would work for an individual but it might be worth a try.

Bob


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## samthedog (Jul 14, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> ISO 9000 certification doesn't mean that you are making quality products, only that you make consistent products.  Now what ISO 9000 does require is continuous quality improvement, part of which is logging issues like customer complaints, taking positive steps to correct those issues, including identifying the root cause of the problem, and following up to ensure the problems don't reoccur.
> 
> ISO 9000, taken in the spirit which it is intended, is a powerful tool in the quest for improvement.  Unfortunately, for many companies, ISO 9000 is just another bureaucratic requirement that lip service is paid to.  As a company, we would ask for evidence of corrective and preventative action being implemented.  This forced our vendors to enter the complaints into their quality system documents.  Supposedly those are reviewed when the vendor has his outside audit.  I don't know if it would work for an individual but it might be worth a try.
> 
> Bob



ISO 9000 only means somthing to companies who are trying to defend a good reputation rather than trying to use the certification as a selling point. The certification only covers documentation, not wether the actual problems are resolved to a satisfactory level or that genuine quality improvemnts are being carried out. A more valid sales point is evidence of batch tracking and quality control processes for quality notifications. Another point to consider whenever purchasing a machine is to check the fine print in the warranty or guarantee. This will tell you a great deal more about how the company views customer service after you have handed over your money.

It seems to me like you have a pretty good understanding of this Bob.

Paul.


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## jbolt (Jul 14, 2015)

Coomba said:


> Ok let me address some of your questions, but first I have to say, some of what you guys talk about is miles above my head. I did a lot of research before buying this mill. Talking to different company's and picking their brains from what other people educated me in. And this was  the first places I visited. The reason I chose the 12Zjr. was because of its table size, weight, and it has a square column, which I was told was a big plus. Yes I do have two complete mills. Yes it would have saved a lot of trouble if they just would have sent the parts. I was told the 12Zjr. was the same exacts mill as the 12Z, but just a bit smaller. This proved not to be true when I tore it down to inspect it for the damaged. When I reported this back to Paul he was dumb founded . Guess they really know their machines. Maybe that's why the didn't just send the parts, they didn't know what they were. Believe me I know when you buy something from China your gonna be working on it right out of the box. This isn't my first duck hunt. Like I said before this was a replacement a second mill. Right now I'm kind of torn, I could sell both of these mills to replace my lost money, or I could  use the parts from both and make one, but then I think about some of the technical stuff you guys mention and I'm at a loss.  I have been talking to Matt at Precision Matthews and he has a little smaller mill which he says is much better quality then the CO. but cost a bit more. it the model PM450G  made in Taiwan. Has anyone heard of it?



Coomba,

If you have two complete mills for the price of one I would take advantage of that and cherry pick the best parts from each to make a mill to keep and then sell off the other. Heck I would make one good mill and then fix the other and keep both.

Jay


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## tomh (Jul 14, 2015)

Coomba
*Do you have both mills ?      if so  please explain ?*
Ok never mind I re read the post my bad


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## barnbwt (Jul 14, 2015)

Use the one good mill to fix the other's bad parts?


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## RJSakowski (Jul 14, 2015)

The great thing about machining is that it is in our power to fix problems like these instead of wringing our hands and Gnashing our teeth.

Bob


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## Coomba (Jul 14, 2015)

joshua43214 said:


> Sorry, I am not trying to argue.
> I can't speak for shipping weight, all I have is what Charter Oak claims.
> According to the website, it weighs 770lbs. That is the weight of the typical RF square column clones.
> http://charteroakautomation.com/our-products/manual-bed-mill/
> ...



Don't know if you are referring to me, but I never said my mill weight was 1200#. Believe it to be closer to 750lbs.


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## Coomba (Jul 14, 2015)

jbolt said:


> Coomba,
> 
> If you have two complete mills for the price of one I would take advantage of that and cherry pick the best parts from each to make a mill to keep and then sell off the other. Heck I would make one good mill and then fix the other and keep both.
> 
> Jay


Yes I do have two mills, and I have given it a great deal of thought to make one good mill. But the way in which some up guys  talk. VERY knowledgeable I add. Flat tables, ways ground straight, lapped and scrapped gibbs. I know I could take them apart and build one, but it just might turn out to be a Frankenstein. And so far the track record for these two mill as been a dud.  Heck guys I'm not a machinist.
My thought is to sell them and buy that mill from Precision Matthews. The model I said in post #69 is incorrect. It is a model PM828M. Does anyone have any knowledge of them


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## jbolt (Jul 14, 2015)

Coomba said:


> Yes I do have two mills, and I have given it a great deal of thought to make one good mill. But the way in which some up guys  talk. VERY knowledgeable I add. Flat tables, ways ground straight, lapped and scrapped gibbs. I know I could take them apart and build one, but it just might turn out to be a Frankenstein. And so far the track record for these two mill as been a dud.  Heck guys I'm not a machinist.
> My thought is to sell them and buy that mill from Precision Matthews. The model I said in post #69 is incorrect. It is a model PM828M. Does anyone have any knowledge of them



I would not let all the talk scare you off. You may mostly be hearing form people who have had an issue or know nothing about the machine. CO has been around a long time. It is easy enough to check the machine for being square and true. 

The grass may not be any greener somewhere else. There are only so many factories where these machines are manufactured in China. Many parts are interchangeable across brands.  

I have a PM-932 and while I am happy with the machine it was not without it issues. It has been a good platform for the CNC conversion I did. 

I have not heard of a PM-828M nor is it on their website. I know they are coming out with a PM-940M which has a larger work envelope than the PM-932 and PM-45. If it is a new model and they don't have them in stock be prepared to wait and it may not be 100% when you get it. 

Jay


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## coolidge (Jul 15, 2015)

Coomba said:


> Yes I do have two mills, and I have given it a great deal of thought to make one good mill. But the way in which some up guys  talk. VERY knowledgeable I add. Flat tables, ways ground straight, lapped and scrapped gibbs. I know I could take them apart and build one, but it just might turn out to be a Frankenstein. And so far the track record for these two mill as been a dud.  Heck guys I'm not a machinist.
> My thought is to sell them and buy that mill from Precision Matthews. The model I said in post #69 is incorrect. It is a model PM828M. Does anyone have any knowledge of them



As someone new to machining maybe a mill from Grizzly would be a better fit for you. They are a much larger company with tech support staff you can call if you need assistance, machines in stock ready to ship, and parts in stock generally if something isn't right. Something like this mill http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Mill-Drill-with-Stand-and-Power-Feed/G0755 for example given your price range. The power feed and power Z axis are a nice bonus.

I'm a little confused why you can just return the CO mills for a refund? It won't be easy selling a mill that has problems. And did I hear you right that you have two different sized mills from them the 12z and a 12z Junior that's smaller?


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## mksj (Jul 15, 2015)

Most of the issues in your video are not unexpected at the price break of the mill, and most do not affect function or could be repaired. I have a gear head mill and it is quite noisy, but it has worked ok for several years. Yes, I also was disappointed at the quality of my Chinese mill (and I paid a bit more), and subsequently went with a Taiwan made lathe because of the QC issues with the mill.  Different machine vendors may spec better QC and have some form of machine QC before it is shipped to the buyer.  I would have expected better from CO, but they did send a second mill. I agree with Coolidge, just return the CO mills and purchase something else. If you used a credit card to pay for the mill, they usually will intervene on your behalf. The Grizzly G0755 or G0762 would be similar to the machine from CO, in general I have found a bit better QC and support from Grizzly. There are also other vendors such as QMT which have newer versions (such as variable speed) of this type of mill.


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## Silverbullet (Jul 15, 2015)

Wow that's something you might expect from a HF cheapy . Really looks like poor quality at least someone who assembled it should have cked it out!! Good pr is tuff with this happening !!


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## Coomba (Jul 16, 2015)

mksj said:


> Most of the issues in your video are not unexpected at the price break of the mill, and most do not affect function or could be repaired. I have a gear head mill and it is quite noisy, but it has worked ok for several years. Yes, I also was disappointed at the quality of my Chinese mill (and I paid a bit more), and subsequently went with a Taiwan made lathe because of the QC issues with the mill.  Different machine vendors may spec better QC and have some form of machine QC before it is shipped to the buyer.  I would have expected better from CO, but they did send a second mill. I agree with Coolidge, just return the CO mills and purchase something else. If you used a credit card to pay for the mill, they usually will intervene on your behalf. The Grizzly G0755 or G0762 would be similar to the machine from CO, in general I have found a bit better QC and support from Grizzly. There are also other vendors such as QMT which have newer versions (such as variable speed) of this type of mill.



Guess I'm going to disagree with the first sentence of your post. When you have a customer that is unhappy because he has a piece of equipment that does not work. It should be a priority to do what ever is necessary to make them happy. At least that's the way I ran my business. Also the purpose of the post was not to debate the quality of the mill, you seasoned machinists all ready know what to expect form a mill made in china, but us new guys, have no ideal. My intent was to inform newbies like myself, of the problems that I went through, so they hopefully they would learn from my mistakes.


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## mksj (Jul 16, 2015)

If you review postings on many of these machines, you will see that all are built to a price point, you get what you pay for and quality problems seem to be endemic to the lower priced Chinese machinery and tooling. These days, I almost never buy any tooling from China, unfortunately on lathes and mills their are not a lot of alternatives at our price level (Coolidge is exempted). As Coolidge described, even more expensive machines have their issues. Some brands may be better than others. I do not disagree that there is an issue, and that the company should make amends to correct the faults in your mill. This is specified in their 1 year warranty, so you have options, but some companies have better customer service than others.  The adage that others should reflect our ideals in business practice is long gone these days.


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## coolidge (Jul 16, 2015)

At this price point you will very likely have to deal with some quality issues regardless of brand. They could be severe enough that you have to return the machine for a refund. That's reality.


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## tomh (Jul 16, 2015)

( I have tried to negotiate but that didn't happen )  ? 

*This is not meant to sound mean to anyone  so please don't take it as such. 
*
There is no negotiation. 

We either live with what we buy  or box it up and send it back for a refund!

From a Yankee living in in the south


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## barnbwt (Jul 16, 2015)

Yeah, I think 'make it work or send it back if you can't' is basically the only option.  For folks like me just getting started, there is either the option to go with a used lathe in God-knows-what condition with God-only-knows what all is wrong with it and if replacements are available, or to go with a low-end new machine lacking the rigidity and ultimate capability of the heavier old machines.  It's literally a crap shoot whichever you choose as a newbie, and I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.  With a new machine, the odds are higher you have some sort of recourse for refund if the thing's a lemon, or can be given another machine in exchange.  A used machine bought from a private party?  Good chance the money you gave them is spent before you can complain about it, and a refund is the absolute best shot you have at support.

TCB


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## coolidge (Jul 16, 2015)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## higgite (Jul 17, 2015)

That thing doesn't have an instruction manual. It has an instruction library.

Tom


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## barnbwt (Jul 17, 2015)

If Haas made a manual machine, maybe.


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## AR1911 (Jul 17, 2015)

That looks like a typical Asian mill-drill, or the Rong Fu persuasion. At most they are buying the primary assembly and adding local touches like the screen-printed front panel. 
    I would suspect they are are buying the machines whole to their specifications. I can't imagine any U.S. workplace letting a product go out like that.

  Yep: "Our CNC Products are designed and assembled in the USA, with many of our components being machined right here in the United States, and more work being onshored with each iterative redesign."  

Translation:  "We build our CNC machines using mostly Asian components. If it's a manual machine we just bought it from Asia with out label already on it, from the lowest bidder."


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## bmckenzie (Jul 18, 2015)

This has been an excellent thread!!!  Very appropriate for me.  I am, sometime within the next 4-6 weeks, going to drop some coin on my first mill.  I have been reading, studying, watching videos etc. trying to decide what to get.  Due to cost, from what I have read I wanted a square column mill.  The cost of a full-size knee mill is prohibitive for me and I live in San Antonio, TX which apparently is not a great place to buy used mills.  From what I read bigger is better, especially bigger build cube.  I have read several posts from folks that bought other IH or Rong Fu clones that have said they wished they had bought the bigger CO machine.  The only thing that gave me some pause was all of the accolades I see for Precision Matthews and their great customer service.  But, at the end I have decided to go with the big CO machine as they are the most economical for the build size.  

Reading this thread started to scare me off, but the more I read the better I felt about still going with CO.  But, all of the different opinions and data is really helpful.  And, now I know if I have some problems with the mill when I get it, not to freak out.  So, thanks everyone for the info and discussion!  Quite timely for me.

Bill M.


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## pdentrem (Jul 18, 2015)

Any machine can be a "pig in a poke". We just spent 40k on a new Wire EDM and still have issues at that price level! Pinch rollers for the wire that don't pinch, can not load the file into the memory as the CPU crashes just about every time and more. The tech guy coming in this week is going to cr-- his pants at the length of our punch list.
Pierre


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## tomh (Jul 19, 2015)

Bill / others 
Just a friendly reminder   on buying 
 1 It is a business transaction.
2 use a credit card.
3 when you get your machine,  check it out  before accepting it and don't hesitate to refuse it, remember It's not yours or your problem till you sign for it.
4  Contact the seller asap with any problems, and discuss what to do and a timeline to do it. 
5  keep the crate/box and don't hesitate to send it back for a refund, it's a machine not a heirloom.  
6   Check with  your credit card co for a time line on a  credit return and discuss the problem and what to do about it.
7  coolidge  said it best, you are buying a machine not a friend, don't get cozy but don't be rude, because you have the upper hand ( credit card)
  These simple steps will help  avoid  unnecessary headaches an loss of money.
Tomh


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## toolman (Jul 19, 2015)

bmckenzie said:


> This has been an excellent thread!!!  Very appropriate for me.  I am, sometime within the next 4-6 weeks, going to drop some coin on my first mill.  I have been reading, studying, watching videos etc. trying to decide what to get.  Due to cost, from what I have read I wanted a square column mill.  The cost of a full-size knee mill is prohibitive for me and I live in San Antonio, TX which apparently is not a great place to buy used mills.  From what I read bigger is better, especially bigger build cube.  I have read several posts from folks that bought other IH or Rong Fu clones that have said they wished they had bought the bigger CO machine.  The only thing that gave me some pause was all of the accolades I see for Precision Matthews and their great customer service.  But, at the end I have decided to go with the big CO machine as they are the most economical for the build size.
> 
> Reading this thread started to scare me off, but the more I read the better I felt about still going with CO.  But, all of the different opinions and data is really helpful.  And, now I know if I have some problems with the mill when I get it, not to freak out.  So, thanks everyone for the info and discussion!  Quite timely for me.
> 
> Bill M.



FWIW, if you have the space, you'd be money ahead to buy a full-size machine to begin with. For the same money or just a bit over, you can get a decent machine. I bought a very solid 9x42" Taiwan machine from a company in OKC that was liquidating. I got the mill, two hold-down kits, 8 expandable reamers, a bunch of R8 collets and tooling, plus about 25-30 lbs. of end mills, reamers, chucks, etc. for $1200. It also came with a Bridgeport 6" vise.  The machine was a Profit Master and I'd put it up next to any BP out there in terms of accuracy and rigidity.  The only reason I got rid of it was because I found a bigger machine with X and Y power feeds and an AccuRite  DRO that had the nod feature that the PM didn't. I never needed it, but I wanted it.


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## coolidge (Jul 19, 2015)

Toolman I considered a knee mill, that would have been an upgrade vs a CO but three things, limited space, portability, and spindle speed. My CO is on wheels I can wheel it out in the middle of the garage when working then wheel it off to the side out of my way when I don't need it. The CO will spin 3,600 rpm with the 3HP VFD option and with the belt drive kit Bill purchased they will spin a bit over 5,000 rpm.


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## RJSakowski (Jul 19, 2015)

Toolman, it sounds like you found a real deal there and anyone would be a fool not to grab it.  In fact, it looks like you have more than the $1200 just in the additional tooling.  

Unfortunately, those deals are extremely rare. Particularly in the case of a newbe, understanding what is important and what is not when buying used machinery can be a real problem.  It would be really easy to get in over one's head and become discouraged enough to abandon the hobby altogether.  It is deplorable that one can't buy a new machine from a US vendor and not have to rebuild the machine before use.  Hopefully, though most of the problems will be minor and the major ones will be handled by the vendor's customer service.   On the other hand, buying a used machine is more than likely "as is" with no recourse when problems are discovered.  For those people just getting their feet wet, that first machine is often a stepping stone to the type of machines you are talking about.

Bob


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## dave2176 (Jul 19, 2015)

Sorry, you have two machines but only bought one of them. You owe CO a machine, their shipping cost.

Every vendor of this class (rf45) I can think of has bad press on this forum. It's reality. I have the G0755 and lucky for me it has been trouble free (knock on wood). It is accurate, tough and quiet at 86 decibels at top speed. After 22 months I wouldn't trade it for the others.

Dave


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## bmckenzie (Jul 19, 2015)

toolman said:


> FWIW, if you have the space, you'd be money ahead to buy a full-size machine to begin with. For the same money or just a bit over, you can get a decent machine. I bought a very solid 9x42" Taiwan machine from a company in OKC that was liquidating. I got the mill, two hold-down kits, 8 expandable reamers, a bunch of R8 collets and tooling, plus about 25-30 lbs. of end mills, reamers, chucks, etc. for $1200. It also came with a Bridgeport 6" vise.  The machine was a Profit Master and I'd put it up next to any BP out there in terms of accuracy and rigidity.  The only reason I got rid of it was because I found a bigger machine with X and Y power feeds and an AccuRite  DRO that had the nod feature that the PM didn't. I never needed it, but I wanted it.




Yeah, as I mentioned, I live around San Antonio, so good used deals are pretty non-existent.  I have been watching craig's list for a few months now and I never see anything worth looking at.  Also, and I didn't mention this before, but I plan on CNCing this machine (probably not right away) and enclosing it, which I have a much better handle on doing with a bench-top machine than I would a knee mill (not saying it can't be done).  And the mobility of a bench-top would be nice as my shop is my 3 car garage, which may turn into a two car garage if we get the wife a new car


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## Lucky 13 (Jul 19, 2015)

barnbwt said:


> If Haas made a manual machine, maybe.


You mean like this one?


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## coolidge (Jul 19, 2015)

The newer Haas toolroom mills have a full enclosure, some government safety nonsense I think. I rarely say anything in public regarding converting these RongFu 45 type mills to CNC but having done so myself, I think its a horrible idea. You can buy a used Haas toolroom mill or mini mill for not that much more money than you will sink into a RongFu 45 CNC project. Say another $10k. They have about the same foot print and the advantages are too numerous to list.


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## tmarks11 (Jul 19, 2015)

Casting voids are pretty common on all the chinese machinery you buy.  All the voids are just filled in with bond (or cheaper chinese equivalent) and painted.  Does hurt the function.  Looks like one of those voids took a strike during shipping and chipped.  No functional issue, just needs to be touched up.

No surprise that it is hard to shift gears; pretty common for a new machine to be stiff until it is broken in.  Also, sometimes you have to turn the spindle by hand to help shift it into place.

That vibrating lever: if you take the top off the gear box, you will understand why it is vibrating.  There is a spinning shaft underneath it, and the lever slides cooler which pushes a gear back and forth on it to change gears.  This will probably get better as the machine breaks in.

Loose screws, loose electrical pass throughs.  Par for the course. My grizzly equipment is no better.

I don't see any deal breakers in your video.  Just some things that need some elbow grease.

Most people treat these machines as kits: they are not delivered to you in a completely useable form.  Sucks?  Yes. But you want perfection, then you are going to pay double the price to get a Taiwan machine.   Look at what Enco charges for their Rong Fu mills vs their house brand.  The difference? Country of origin.  You get what you pay for.

I am betting if you send this machine back and buy a Grizzly G0755, that you still won't be impressed by what you buy.

CO has had a spotty history as the company has changed hands 3 or 4 times, with varying level of customer satisfaction along the way.  The new management at CO doesn't seem to have achieved takeoff speed.

If you want a machine you will be happy with, than I strongly recommend you buy a Precision Matthews 935TS  knee mill.  Twice the cost of the 12Z, but I think you will like what you get.  Far more capable than a square column mill.

Full disclosure: I have no PM machines (I have a lot of Grizzly), but there are a lot of happy PM folks on this forum.


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## David VanNorman (Mar 20, 2016)

If that is for real I don't think I'll buy from them. I was just going to call them.


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## phil c (Jan 2, 2019)

I got the International Hobbies manual version of this machine, unfortunately only a year before Gene died, and the company went out of business.  To their credit, the machine was cleaned up, everything worked, the ways were smooth and turned easily, except near the left end.  That required a little adjustment of the gibs.  The gear box design is kind of crappy and noisy. After a year of use a roll pin in the gearbox(3 position handle) came out which required some disassembly to replace.

Sounds like Charter Oak is having more quality control problems than previous.  China is having some problems and I imagine the the suppliers there are having problems themselves.


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## Cooter Brown (Jan 2, 2019)

I have been trying to tell you guys for a long time that the RF-45 and clones are complete garbage..... Do not buy one....


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## Kroll (Jan 5, 2019)

Sorry guys edit my comments,but hate seeing anyone spending that kind of money for something that they can't even get the cosmetics right.And hate to see that a member has to rebuild a brand new mill.But you do have two,I would pick the best one that sounds like its running correctly and parts off the other to make one good mill.Plus you will have all kinds of parts for yrs to come.I believe that they made a good attempt by sending you another without asking for pics or proof.There's members here who did have a good experience,so far all we know of is one not so good experience but you have two machines Yes its not right but once your done you will know your mill inside and out,I bet if you check parts prices you will be sticker shock.
Like others said those machines should have never come out of the shop for shipping but they did,I don't believe that Charter did it on purpose cause they know that now days bad reviews travel fast.Good luck sir,make the most out of two machines.


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## john.k (Jan 25, 2019)

Complaints aplenty,but do you know the era of cheap cast iron from China is  nearly at an end.The factories pouring out smoke and fumes  while turning out cheap castings will soon be over.My prediction is these machines will take a price increase of 2x at least,as all the environmental controlls take hold,and factory owners resisting will be jailed (if they are lucky)....


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## jwmay (Jan 31, 2019)

This thread was started 3 or 4 years ago. I didn’t see any resolution posted, but it’s quite possible one complaint from 3 years ago should be viewed from that standpoint.  A lot can change in 3 years. I don’t own anything from the vendor btw. Just pointing out this is a necropost, that somehow got revived, and doesn’t necessarily represent the company qc TODAY.


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## Reddinr (Feb 1, 2020)

I know this is an older post but for new shoppers, I wanted to give my perspective as I've owned and run my 12Z mill, converted to CNC for many years now, (since 2009).   Wow, time flies.  I bought it when the company was Industrial Hobbies.  It is essentially the same machine as in the OP's video, except CNC'd.  I think that separating the facts about the basic mill from the anecdotal quality example(s) is important.

This is by no means a $30K highly-polished, super-massive machine, if you could even find that for $30K.  But it has been a workhorse for me for about 10 years.  I have used it 70% business, 30% hobby.   It does have some minor casting voids in unimportant areas and the y-axis was stiff at first.  Some stoning of a high spot on the very end of one of the ways and the gibs (maybe 20 minutes or so) fixed that up.  As with all these machines I spent a day doing preservative clean-up, alignment, tightening here and there, etc.  I also did my own CNC conversion using IH's kit.  The CNC kit was outstanding in quality, produced by IH in CT.   The conversion was no big deal although a bit nerve-wracking because you have to carefully drill and tap some holes in the castings to mount things.   I use the mill for wood, plastic, aluminum, and steel.  The drive-train is relatively noisy and you can find people that have modified their machine for a belt drive.  I just live with the noise.  It's fine.  I did not see the gear lever vibration shown in the video, that seems abnormal.  For years I've been thinking I will tram the Z column better as I imagine a couple of mil shim would make it perfect but I've never gotten around to it.  It has done good work as-is.  The only time I notice it is if I do a large diameter cut with a fly cutter.  Maybe this is the year I finally get around to precisely tramming it.  Yeah, probably not.

My biggest complaint about the machine?  A very slow, probably a couple of ounces over 10 years leak of oil around the spindle bearing.  The drip seems to have slowed down over the years.  I just put a piece of cardboard on the table in case a drip or two happens if it sits idle for a while.  Due to Murphy, it always seems to want to have a drip when I have an HDPE part in the mill, staining the part.  So, take it apart, replace seals/bearings, etc? Naw, the cardboard works.

Do I wish I had a stouter mill, a knee mill?  Sometimes.  However, this mill has accomplished everything I have asked it to do.  The extended work envelope has been invaluable to me.  It is slower going in steel than on a larger mass machine but it has done well.  For softer materials, I rigged up a mount for a porter-cable router to get higher RPMs.  It just bolts on the side of the head opposite the quill feed handle.  The router extension works quite well for plastic and wood especially and ok for aluminum even.

From my perspective, I got a huge bang for the buck with this style of mill.  I still just run Mach 3 and drive the axis with the parallel ports of an old PC.  I may improve that at some point after I retire.  I think this 12Z mill will do most of what I need for the next couple of decades.   So, $8K / ~30 years is about $260/year for a decent, large envelope CNC mill.  That's not bad, especially since my first job paid for a good chunk of it.   Some spend much more than that on lattes.  I have spent probably as much on end mills, collets, slitting saws, tool holders, indexer, vises, chucks, etc. since then.   So there's that...  This is not necessarily a cheap hobby.

_* Gene, one of the owners of the former IH company, was still around when I bought my mill.  If anyone ever spoke with Gene then they know that he was a great, easy-going guy that liked helping out his customers.  He helped me figure out a couple of things during the CNC conversion, probably on the phone for an hour.  I barely knew him and even I miss the guy._


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## Buffalo21 (Feb 1, 2020)

chips&more said:


> And then the Imports have the audacity to say they are ISO certified! That tells me that being ISO certified is just a consumer buzz phrase trap…Dave


I know this is an old thread, but being ISO certified has nothing to do with true quality. It has to do with record keeping, written and defined procedures, for various manufacturing actions. All the ISO certifying means is you build it the same every time, and can document the whole manufacturing process. If it’s a crap product, it will be the same crap product coming off the production line, every time. The standards are set by the paperwork, if you spec a .030” clearance and it really should be .010”, for proper operation, they will make it .030”. The documentation says they will build to whatever the paperwork calls for, and you can back up their claims, with the documentation, recorded during production. Lots and lots of paperwork, that all the certification means is, if unit one rolls off the production line, unit 10,001 should be identical, whether the quality is good is not the true ISO concern.


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## john.k (Feb 4, 2020)

All gets back to having a good look at a machine before buying,and getting some feedback from recent owners that you can talk to.......A million complaints from one owner may mean nothing ,or everything.....you must meet and see working.....People who buy new cars sight unseen get the salesman car where the cat has had a claw at the seat cloth...(true example)


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 24, 2020)

@Coomba I'd open the electrical panel(s)...loose screws ARE a HUGE deal in there. If this is like my PM (and they do look a lot like long lost brothers), there should be a small panel on side of motor as well, crack that bad boy open as post haste.


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