# Which mill should I get?



## Pcmaker (Aug 5, 2020)

I currently have a PM-25MV. I've been looking to upgrade to a much more ridgid machine where I can work with mild and hardened steel without any ridgidity issues. Also, I don't have access to 3 phase in my garage. 1 phase, 240v is the highest I can get. 

I need a variable speed motor with an RPM indicator just like my PM25MV, a spingle brake, Z axis motor, X axis power feed, maybe a Y axis.

Not sure whether to go with a bench top or knee mill. I'd rather have a bench top, but I think knee mills are much more ridgid when working with harder metals. But it's a pain you have to bend over to lock the Z axis. 

A lot more input on pros and cons would be appreciated.


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## Morgan RedHawk (Aug 5, 2020)

If you have the room and the money, I would go with a knee mill.  I have a 932 and just upgraded to a 949.  The 949 is much more rigid.  I convert my single phase 240 to 3 phase with a VFD.  Now that I have used both styles, I prefer the knee for the Z axis.


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## mksj (Aug 5, 2020)

Per above, I would recommend a full size knee if the budget allows. VFD is a fairly basic install, but there is also the mechanical vari-speed if you do not want to do the conversion. I cannot say that I ever locked the knee on my mill, unlike a bench top were you can get head sag, I see no difference with the knee. In most cases anyway I uses the the spindle adjustment to set the cutter depth, and I do lock it. A vari-speed head gives you a mechanical readout of speed, long term they are more maintenance. Adapting a tach. to a knee mill there are several approaches. Probably the easiest is a hand held tach. if speed needs to be quantifiable. My knee has a built in VFD, which I have modified, but these come with a factory Tach. Downside is cost, you are looking at a large cost range going from say a PM-940 mill to a factory installed VFD mill.  I find X and Z drives to be the most useful, Y less so. Figure about $400 a drive for a decent drive like Align. I do not see any cons for a full size knee vs. a bench top mill other than sizes, weight and cost. Function wise, once you use a full size mill, hard to go back to a bench top other than for smalls. Really depends on the type and size of work, the PM-833 would be a mid point between the two based on capacity, cost and quality.


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## Pcmaker (Aug 5, 2020)

I always lock the head on my PM25MV when I'm milling. I've never used a knee mill before. So you don't have to lock the Z axis when you're using a knee mill? I guess the weight of the table is already being pushed down when you're milling, so it's not moving.


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## markba633csi (Aug 5, 2020)

Yes pretty much.  It's a different animal.  I do a lot of smallish parts, I'm using a small old horizontal knee mill with an added motorized vertical head.  Cost me a grand.  Does most everything I need. If I was upgrading, a small table Bridgeport or Millrite would probably keep me happy for years
-Mark


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## davidpbest (Aug 5, 2020)

You might want to _*READ THIS*_. I have a customized PM935 with VFD and custom controls Mark did for me including tachomenter, and I'm generally satisfied with it. I have not found it as rigid as the Rong Fu 45 benchtop mill it replaced. All that flexibility of the Ram, Tilt/Nod comes at a price. So if you do go the knee mill route, I would recommend a full size PM949 or equivalent rather than a baby/junior sized knee mill unless space constraints dictate.


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## ttabbal (Aug 5, 2020)

I ended up finding a Bridgeport locally in good shape. Needed some work, but it works great. If you have space and budget for a mill this size, it's worth it.

Don't worry about 3 phase. Just get a motor that can be wired for 220V 3 phase and get a VFD. You get 3 phase and variable speed all in one.


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## 81husky (Aug 6, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> So if you do go the knee mill route, I would recommend a full size PM949 or equivalent rather than a baby/junior sized knee mill unless space constraints dictate.


I was under the assumption that all of the PM knee mills had the same head. The knees look beefier on the larger sizes, but the lack of rigidity mainly comes from the head. I have a PM935, and it's not the most rigid mill around. Please correct me if the heads are different on the PM mills.


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## erikmannie (Aug 6, 2020)

If I were to do it over again, I would get a 3 phase PM knee mill. It is not a problem to buy a VFD or RPC so you can run 3 phase at your house.


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## erikmannie (Aug 6, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> You might want to *READ THIS*. I have a customized PM935 with VFD and custom controls Mark did for me including tachomenter, and I'm generally satisfied with it. I have not found it as rigid as the Rong Fu 45 benchtop mill it replaced. All that flexibility of the Ram, Tilt/Nod comes at a price. So if you do go the knee mill route, I would recommend a full size PM949 or equivalent rather than a baby/junior sized knee mill unless space constraints dictate.


FYI I was unable to read the PDF on my iPhone 8S.


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## davidpbest (Aug 6, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> FYI I was unable to read the PDF on my iPhone 8S.


Follow this link (or download it on a computer):  
*


			https://tinyurl.com/y32zc5v9
		

*
It's also fully discussed on this forum here:   https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm-932m-or-pm-835s-on-the-fence.84196/


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## Mitch Alsup (Aug 6, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I always lock the head on my PM25MV when I'm milling. I've never used a knee mill before. So you don't have to lock the Z axis when you're using a knee mill? I guess the weight of the table is already being pushed down when you're milling, so it's not moving.



While theoretically it is wise to lock the z-axis, in practice with several hundred pounds holding it down, it is unlikely to move outside of a 0.001" kind of tolerance. If you are going for extreme precision, you lock down Z also. Locking Z-axis also improves the rigidity of the machine and can improve surface finish.


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## Skowinski (Aug 6, 2020)

David linked you to my thread, where the knee vs bench mill issue was raked over for a while.  It helped me a lot in driving me towards a decision.  I'm still in limbo (barely), but the things brought up really helped me to understand the pros and cons and issues involved.  I was a bit ignorant.

Good luck with your decision, and I hope you don't take as long as I am to decide, LOL!


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## Pcmaker (Aug 6, 2020)

What worries me about getting the large knee mills is how I'm going to get it off the pallet it's sitting on and how to move it to a desired spot inside my 2 car garage.


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## Winegrower (Aug 6, 2020)

If you don't get a Bridgeport or equivalent, you'll be back in a few years with "what mill should I buy".   

I hoisted my Bridgeport equivalent by the eyehook on the ram with the HF engine hoist, and set it on a pallet jack.   You can roll it around (on concrete) as needed easily, and I put it up on two 4x4s to both raise the working height a bit and so that I can put the jack back in and move it again.   In 10 years I never have moved it 0.001"

And yes, the Z height is very solid even without locking.   For normal cuts, I don't lock X or Y, but for heavy cuts, or if you are setting up a precise spot with the DRO for several tool changes and don't want a thou or so movement, it is the thing to do.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 6, 2020)

With your list of desires, you should have both feet planted firmly in Bridgeport (equivalent) territory right now.  They're plentiful at $2-$4k.  Once you transition into the BP form factor, you'll know you've arrived.

I plan to die with my Lagun FTV-3 still in my shop, and I'm a youngun' round these parts.


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## rogerl (Aug 6, 2020)

I bought a PM 935 TS 3 phase mill over a year ago and I love the mill. I came from a round column bench mill and it is night and day difference. I work mostly in aluminum and mild steel. I am not doing production work with the mill so If I have to take a few more lighter cuts to get the job done so be it. I bought the VFD for PM as well and it is Very nice. I rented an engine lift to get the mill off the pallet and put in place. It took me a few hours to get the mill off the pallet and located in my shop where I wanted it. If you are going to be doing machining for personal uses and not worried if you have to take a few more cuts to get the job done I would highly recommend the PM 935 TS.

Roger L


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## RWanke (Aug 6, 2020)

I have been looking at bench tops and the PM-25v is what would work for me. If you are going to sell yours let me know what options it has and what you have to go with it along with a price.


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## Pcmaker (Aug 6, 2020)

What would be the Bridgeport equivalent of a PM machine?


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## wrmiller (Aug 7, 2020)

rogerl said:


> I bought a PM 935 TS 3 phase mill over a year ago and I love the mill. I came from a round column bench mill and it is night and day difference. I work mostly in aluminum and mild steel. I am not doing production work with the mill so If I have to take a few more lighter cuts to get the job done so be it. I bought the VFD for PM as well and it is Very nice. I rented an engine lift to get the mill off the pallet and put in place. It took me a few hours to get the mill off the pallet and located in my shop where I wanted it. If you are going to be doing machining for personal uses and not worried if you have to take a few more cuts to get the job done I would highly recommend the PM 935 TS.
> 
> Roger L



I've had my 935TS for about 5 years now, and it does everything I want. A friend who wanted my previous bench mill made me a stand for the mill that has levelers and wheels on it, and raises the mill about 5" or so. Works good for me, and I'm about 6'3".


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## Morgan RedHawk (Aug 7, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> What worries me about getting the large knee mills is how I'm going to get it off the pallet it's sitting on and how to move it to a desired spot inside my 2 car garage.


Getting it off the pallet is not difficult.  There are many ways, like the aforementioned HF engine crane.  I did it with just a pallet jack (you can roll it on steel pipes if you dont have access to a pallet jack), toe jack, pry bar, and a couple of stacks of plywood.  This thread shows how I did it:

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/theres-a-monster-in-my-garage.77884/


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## Janderso (Aug 7, 2020)

You are gonna love the knee mill.
Welcome back pcmaker.
I would go 3 phase. It's not that much for a VFD and the smooth efficient power can't be beat.


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## Pcmaker (Aug 7, 2020)

Morgan RedHawk said:


> Getting it off the pallet is not difficult.  There are many ways, like the aforementioned HF engine crane.  I did it with just a pallet jack (you can roll it on steel pipes if you dont have access to a pallet jack), toe jack, pry bar, and a couple of stacks of plywood.  This thread shows how I did it:
> 
> https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/theres-a-monster-in-my-garage.77884/



I have a 1 ton HF engine crane, but I'll be getting a 2 ton one. Does the knee mill fit in between the crane's legs? Do you go in from the front or back? I guess there's an eye bolt on top of the knee mills that you can use to lift them up.

I'm looking into the PM949 which weights 2500 lbs.



Janderso said:


> You are gonna love the knee mill.
> Welcome back pcmaker.
> I would go 3 phase. It's not that much for a VFD and the smooth efficient power can't be beat.



Yeah, I'm going 3 phase. I hear it's easy to wire and it can convert single phase to 3 phase via the VFD.


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## davidpbest (Aug 7, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I have a 1 ton HF engine crane, but I'll be getting a 2 ton one. Does the knee mill fit in between the crane's legs? Do you go in from the front or back? I guess there's an eye bolt on top of the knee mills that you can use to lift them up.
> 
> I'm looking into the PM949 which weights 2500 lbs.


You might find this interesting:   https://flic.kr/s/aHsmPTx5nS


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## pontiac428 (Aug 7, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I have a 1 ton HF engine crane, but I'll be getting a 2 ton one. Does the knee mill fit in between the crane's legs? Do you go in from the front or back? I guess there's an eye bolt on top of the knee mills that you can use to lift them up.
> 
> I'm looking into the PM949 which weights 2500 lbs.



It's a common practice, so someone will surely disagree with me, but I would urge you not to move a 2500 lb mill with an engine hoist.  A sturdy toe jack and a bunch of cribbing material will allow you to pull the pallet out from under it.  Engine hoists don't live up to their ratings.  They hold the load under tension, instead of supporting the machine from underneath.  An accident, like a tipover or hoist failure (and boy do they fail when overloaded) could have that new mill up for auction at your estate sale.  At the very least you'll damage something.

I moved two lighter machines this morning with an engine hoist, so I'm not a total hater.  Just save the hoist for things under 1000 lbs for best results.


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## ttabbal (Aug 7, 2020)

I use the hoist mostly when working on parts. Like lifting the table or head/ram off the column. For moving the machine around, I used a pry bar to lift it just enough to get some pipes under it. Then just roll, move a pipe to the front, roll more.... At least 3 pipes so that you always have 2 under the machine, preventing it from wanting to get tippy. 

I would have used it to get it off a pallet if it was on one. Lift it up, have a helper move the pallet.

Or maybe not, keeping it on there would make it easy to use a pallet jack to move it around. I would worry about the wood breaking down over time though. 

Having at least 2 people helps a lot with moving it around.


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## Morgan RedHawk (Aug 7, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> I have a 1 ton HF engine crane, but I'll be getting a 2 ton one. Does the knee mill fit in between the crane's legs? Do you go in from the front or back? I guess there's an eye bolt on top of the knee mills that you can use to lift them up.
> 
> I'm looking into the PM949 which weights 2500 lbs.



I did not use a crane for moving mine.  I used a toe jack for the 949.  If you scroll further down that thread after the moving it section, it shows how.  I believe the mill will fit between the hoist legs, but you would have to reinforce and then cut the pallet.  I definitely would not try to move the mill with the hoist, only to lift it vertically and only as much as absolutely necessary.  Pontiac428 is right about them being easy to tip.  I raised my 600lb-ish 932 up on to the stand with the HF 2 ton, and believe me, I was sweating it.
I decided to move the 949 with the toe jack and plywood cribbage.  This way, as Pontiac said, I never really had to depend on the strength of any device to hold the machine up.  If the toe jack had failed suddenly at any time during the operation, the machine would have only dropped 3/8" (the thickness of one plywood layer)..enough to make you crap yourself, but not enough to damage anything or tip over. Whatever you decide to do, please be super careful..when I say it was easy, it was because I thoroughly thought out each step and worked carefully, always keeping out of harm's way should something bad happen.

Edited to add: Plus the toe jack and plywood was less expensive than the 2 ton hoist..and that jack is handy for lots of stuff.


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## Weldingrod1 (Aug 7, 2020)

Dont be afraid to take off parts to lighten it up!!! The head, ram, and column top are easy to.pull off with a hoist and will help the top heavy problem. The table can be pulled if.you've got something to slide it onto; use the knee to line it up with your table. Beefy table, of course!
Be aware that you CANNOT manhandle a Bridgeport! If it starts to tip, get the heck put of the way! Always know where your "out" is!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Pcmaker (Aug 7, 2020)

Just looked up toe jack sand they're a lot more expensive than I thought.


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## Tim9 (Aug 7, 2020)

Just on a side note. I’m not sure about your garage, but my garage  is only 7’6” high.  And I’m not sure about the height of the Bridgepor, but my Millrite is tight. There’s not a lot of distance between the top of my mill and bottomless of rafters. Just saying....you might want to check those small details


Weldingrod1 said:


> Dont be afraid to take off parts to lighten it up!!! The head, ram, and column top are easy to.pull off with a hoist and will help the top heavy problem. The table can be pulled if.you've got something to slide it onto; use the knee to line it up with your table. Beefy table, of course!
> Be aware that you CANNOT manhandle a Bridgeport! If it starts to tip, get the heck put of the way! Always know where your "out" is!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## mksj (Aug 8, 2020)

Moving these mills is no an easy task, fortunately a friend built a rolling base for my knee mill and I have outboard 5" heavy duty locking casters and separate jacking feet. It still takes two people to push it around at around 2700 lbs.. When I last moved I had a steep driveway so we used a crane to lift it from the garage to the street into a trailer. I used the provided eye bolt and didn't think much about it. About a year later another person I knew bought the same mill and asked how I moved it, and using an engine hoist. He question using the eye bolt because it has a SWL of only 0.45T, didn't read the fine print on the eye bolt. Lucky for me it didn't break, it would have been a total loss. Normally when lifting lathes and mills I use lifting gear with a SWL of 2-3X the load and double up with a similar rated safety strap and sometimes jacking straps to prevent tilt. It seems that the eye bolt on my mill is more designed for removing the head assembly then lifting the whole machine. Fortunately the failure load is usually 4-6X if not more than the SWL.

If using a 2 ton engine hoist, you may be able to straddle the mill from behind (depends on the feet spread and also the boom height and length). The machine should be shipped with head and knee down to lower the center of gravity. Cutting the shipping base and getting it off the pallet is a challenge. You can move it with an engine hoist lifting the mill just above the ground. They are heavy, which is a benefit once they are moved into place. I put off getting a knee mill for many years because of the challenge of getting it too my house and into the garage. One other important factor is getting the mill off the truck and into your garage, the mill is too heavy for a lift gate, they are usually shipped by flatbed truck and you need a fork lift or rigger to get it off the truck.

My friend took delivery of my mill and he had a fork lift at his shop. After building the roller base, we then moved it using a drop deck trailer, which are very hard to rent. I rented a fork lift to unload my lathe (~2600 lbs) and move into my garage.


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## Morgan RedHawk (Aug 8, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Just looked up toe jack sand they're a lot more expensive than I thought.


Here is the one I have.  It works well and wont break the bank.  
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017JMYPRK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Pcmaker (Aug 10, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> You might want to *READ THIS*. I have a customized PM935 with VFD and custom controls Mark did for me including tachomenter, and I'm generally satisfied with it. I have not found it as rigid as the Rong Fu 45 benchtop mill it replaced. All that flexibility of the Ram, Tilt/Nod comes at a price. So if you do go the knee mill route, I would recommend a full size PM949 or equivalent rather than a baby/junior sized knee mill unless space constraints dictate.



If you had to do it over, which mill would you have gone with or will you still go with the 935?


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## Janderso (Aug 10, 2020)

Tim9 said:


> Just on a side note. I’m not sure about your garage, but my garage is only 7’6” high. And I’m not sure about the height of the Bridgepor, but my Millrite is tight. There’s not a lot of distance between the top of my mill and bottomless of rafters. Just saying....you might want to check those small details


My Sharp Knee Mill has me on my tip toes to work the draw bar, and I'm six feet tall. Getting it through the garage door was tight. You can always lower the head.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 10, 2020)

Tim9 said:


> Just on a side note. I’m not sure about your garage, but my garage  is only 7’6” high.  And I’m not sure about the height of the Bridgepor, but my Millrite is tight. There’s not a lot of distance between the top of my mill and bottomless of rafters. Just saying....you might want to check those small details



This is something often overlooked with the frequent "get a Bridgeport" comments. Many of the Bridgeport and clones are 7-8 feet tall, so if you have less than an 8 foot ceiling you may have issues. 9 foot or higher ceiling would be highly desirable. In many older homes (pre-1940s) even the garage may not have an 8 foot ceiling since the cars were smaller and automatic garage door openers non-existent.

Most of the PM mills are 7 to 7-1/2 feet tall.


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## davidpbest (Aug 10, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> If you had to do it over, which mill would you have gone with or will you still go with the 935?


Knowing what I know now, if I had to do it over again, I would probably buy an ACRA LCM-50 with built-in VFD drive (what they call AC Head).   If you want more information on why or specifics about that mill, DM me please.

If you have headroom constraints (which I do) pay attention to the specs on any knee mill.   In my shop, I have 84" headroom and a lot of the full sized knee mills would not fit in my space.


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## ttabbal (Aug 10, 2020)

That's a good point. My garage ceiling is about 10ft, so it doesn't cause a problem for me. But those that do should keep that in mind when considering equipment. With the spacer, I think mine is about 7.5ft tall at the highest point.


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## davidpbest (Aug 10, 2020)

Looking back over the comments above, I feel compelled to comment on taking delivery of a large piece of equipment like a knee mill.   I have never used an engine hoist, and can't imagine why I would.   Instead I rent a forklift.   Where I live (Portland Oregon) a forklift that will handle 4,000+ pounds and fit through an 82" garage door costs $130/day and a $50 delivery and pickup fee.   So $230, and if you get it on a Friday, you have the use of it for the weekend without additional charge.   If you can arrange to have your equipment delivered on the day you have a forklift on hand, you can avoid the $50+ liftgate fee.   Having a forklift really liberates you to easily get the beast off the pallet, install leveling feet, and move it around.

Most of the forklifts I have rented have forks that can be turned upside down for getting tall machines into height-constrained spaces.   Here are a couple of photos that illustrate how I dealt with all this.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 10, 2020)

David, after you set the mill in the planter box, did you use a transplant fertilizer with vitamin B?  How long before you noticed new growth?


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## kb58 (Aug 10, 2020)

If you go by who here is happy with their PM-935, it seems like most are. I'm happy with mine, but it's what it's used for that matters.


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## ACHiPo (Aug 10, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Just looked up toe jack sand they're a lot more expensive than I thought.


You can get a 2.5/5T toe jack for under $100.  








						Hydraulic Machine Toe Jack Lift 2.5/5 T Track Cylinder Heat-treated Hard Chrome  | eBay
					

Sturdy Construction: The hydraulic machine toe jack lift is made from premium heavy-duty steel, and the steel is heat-treated for increased durability. It also features a thickened base, a large oil filler hole, a portable handle, and a wearable spindle, providing you with an excellent toe jack.



					www.ebay.com
				




I bought this 5T/10T for about $200 because I didn't want to wait for the smaller one to get into stock.  It seems like a good tool for the money.


			10T toe jack - Google Shopping


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## pontiac428 (Aug 10, 2020)

I think I paid $80 for mine last year, but my memory is like a sieve.  It's being used a lot, both by me and by those who wish to borrow it.  It was a wise purchase.  Keep the action as close to the ground as possible, because gravity lever lets up.  I have the smaller jack, but it manages my 4500 lb. mill just fine.  That's tilting the machine to put dunnage or skates underneath, not a flat out lift, so partial load.


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## Winegrower (Aug 10, 2020)

There are lots of opinions on the internet, here’s another:

1) moving a Bridgeport by the eyebolt is shown in the manual.   Last time I checked the load rating of a 5/8-11 It was 5600 pounds. 
2) Renting a forklift sounds good, but driving one is not trivial and in a few seconds, you can do untold damage.   The last one I rented, for example, automatically and surprisingly shifted between Forward and reverse every time I clutched.   Wow, was that annoying.
3) and, my driveway was on a slope, even more scary.
4) I also moved my 2500 pound lathe with the HF hoist.  Remember, you don’t have to carry it around higher than a half inch or so.
5) I am sorry to see so many looking at PM for a smaller mill.   Like airplanes, to save money, buy your last mill first.   I cannot imagine a hobby machinist would not be satisfied ending up with a Bridgeport or equivalent.   At least, I beg you, get the biggest PM mill You can fit.
6) A drop trailer is a terrific solution For most moves.

That’s it.  For now.


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## Rich V (Aug 12, 2020)

Moving these machines can be a challenge. When you live on a dirt road in the boonies it takes extra effort. That's my PM 1340 going down a hill, my house is in the background. I also had the PM935 mill moved the same day.

If you want it bad enough you'll find a way.


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## MtnBiker (Aug 22, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> Looking back over the comments above, I feel compelled to comment on taking delivery of a large piece of equipment like a knee mill.   I have never used an engine hoist, and can't imagine why I would.   Instead I rent a forklift.   Where I live (Portland Oregon) a forklift that will handle 4,000+ pounds and fit through an 82" garage door costs $130/day and a $50 delivery and pickup fee.   So $230, and if you get it on a Friday, you have the use of it for the weekend without additional charge.   If you can arrange to have your equipment delivered on the day you have a forklift on hand, you can avoid the $50+ liftgate fee.   Having a forklift really liberates you to easily get the beast off the pallet, install leveling feet, and move it around.
> 
> Most of the forklifts I have rented have forks that can be turned upside down for getting tall machines into height-constrained spaces.   Here are a couple of photos that illustrate how I dealt with all this.
> 
> ...


The fork upside down thing is genius. I had the clearance for the forks...but the safety cage was a different story. Had to remove it. I like the way your mind works.


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## dpb (Aug 22, 2020)

I rented a gantry crane to get my ~2500 lb mill off a flatbed trailer.  I then used a pallet jack to move it to its final location.  I decided I liked its height on the pallet, so I built a stand with leveling feet of approximately the same height.  Space is tight in my shop, so I built a wooden gantry around the mill, and used a 2 ton chain hoist to pick it off the pallet, and swap in my stand.  
When getting it off the flatbed, I used straps to lift it.  When lifting it off the pallet, I used a properly rated eyebolt.
There were no problems or incidents, at any point.


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## MtnBiker (Aug 22, 2020)

dpb said:


> I rented a gantry crane to get my ~2500 lb mill off a flatbed trailer.


Gantry crane is our next big project.


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