# New to machining and metal works, can I get a sanity check before I write one



## ropedrag (Jun 13, 2020)

Even being in my 50's I'm as green as grass with metal lathes and metal works in generalI but a decent wood butcher and can effectively turn a wrench. I'm slowing down on some old hobbies (motorcycle racing, mountaineering, high end audio, etc..) and picking up some new ones that I've always wanted to do.. lathe work, mill work and welding, and am going to start with the lathe.

What I'm I going to be making? Apart from a mess and scrap I really don't know. I've rediscovered shooting sports and would like to build a few "form 1" suppressors, maybe thread a barrel or two, fix/rebuild/make a few tools and parts I've busted over the years, etc... So I think I fit in the "hobby" camp. Good TV recently is youtube, watching This Old Tony, AvE, blondiehacks, etc... kind of like like finding relatives you didn't know existed.

I'm taking the advice I read everywhere, buy the biggest you can afford or that the space will allow so I'm going to max out both, especially if I ever want a mill and a welding table!! My research progression started at a mini lathe then a 9" then a 1022 and maxed out on the PM1127LB. Showing my green-ness here... I'm thinking large bore so I can work a suppressor tube interior threads closer to the chuck, that and a LB seems like a great feature in general.

The sanity check is this. Being the new guy with next to zero experience and no "real" plans other than make some stuff is an 1127 a legit choice. Coming out of the chute maxing out budget and space hopefully isn't a foolish move on my part but part of me knows I'm asking this group because the answer will be -  Hell yes, what are you waiting for! First lathe you say? Pfft you should really be looking at the 1440GT, damn newbies...

One other thing... Do I order the PM1127LB with or with out the DRO?

Thanks!!


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## Chipper5783 (Jun 13, 2020)

A lathe is a great first machine to start with.  If the 1127 maxes out your space, then getting a 1440 as lawn art is pointless.

Regarding the DRO?  Sure, always say yes to more tools and features.  However, what is your budget like?  I have two lathes - neither has a DRO.  I have two manual mills, I added a DRO to one of the mills.  I would add a DRO to the second mill before installing a DRO on the lathes.  A DRO really adds capability to a mill, not so much on a lathe.

There are plenty of other items I would purchase for a lathe ahead of a DRO.  A DRO is also something you can easily add to the lathe at a later date.


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## 7milesup (Jun 13, 2020)

Agree with what Chipper said.  DRO on my mill was a leap forward vs counting dials.  Don't miss it so much on my lathe, which is a PM1022 and too small.
I just got into machining a couple of years ago.  I am 54.  Never ever too late to start.


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## ttabbal (Jun 13, 2020)

I did a similar trip from mini lathe up. I ended up with a PM1127. It's been a great machine. I didn't get the DRO, but I did add one later. You can get good units for 200 or so


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## ErichKeane (Jun 13, 2020)

I'll say as someone who moved from a medium sized lathe to a big one, more power/more over bed size. Get one with a large bore, you'll want to thread rifle barrels, and being able to do so without removing the receiver (with a spider on the end!)  Is a nice feature.

I WILL say, the best quality of life improvement of a bigger lathe is the rigidity to make better cuts, and the power to take bigger ones. On my 10" Logan I remember having to wait forever turning something down taking 50 thou cuts on brass/aluminum. I can take 3x that on steel now, so all those projects with large parts and small shaft parts go way quicker!

Generally, get the highest power and largest bore size you can afford, then choose the longest bed you can fit!


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## wrmiller (Jun 13, 2020)

I do pistolsmithing and some rifle work on a PM1340GT lathe and a PM935TS mill. Both have VFDs giving me variable speed.

I machine compensators from billet and hold fairly tight tolerances on the bore through the ports. I also make slide stop pins of custom sizes to get that 'perfect' fit at lockup on 1911s. I can cut pins to plus or minus a few tenths on my 1340GT.

I've not made a can yet, but I suspect that tolerances on threads and septum bores are very similar to those on compensators. I could be wrong though. I've seen guys blow the ends off compensators and cans that were improperly made. Not a pretty sight.


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## Tozguy (Jun 13, 2020)

My situation at the start was similar to yours but I opted for a 12x36 with a BXA tool post.
Barrel work and building your own rifles is great fun. But 27'' does not sound like enough bed for that. The spec is usually center to center so if a 4 jaw is added you could loose 5 to 6 inches and be limited for barrel work.
Getting the most suitable size of lathe comes before a DRO which can be added later IF desired. There is nothing wrong with relying on the dials. They work!


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## hotrats (Jun 13, 2020)

Like you, I didn't know anything about metalworking. Was wanting to get a PM727 before retirement, but they were months out before arrival. I took the "get the largest you can afford" to heart and got a PM 940. I got a deal on a older Jet copy lathe, used it for a couple years. Lucked up and sold it for 3X what I paid. Got a PM 1236 lathe then. Both are overkill for me, but, if I ever need the capacity.... I got the DRO installed on the mill, bought a $200. one off ebay for the lathe. Seems most of my time spent on either is making upgrades for the mill or lathe...


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## markba633csi (Jun 14, 2020)

As if you needed another opinion-  I'd go for the 1236 from PM.  Matt gives great support after the sale.
-Mark


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 14, 2020)

I started out with a 7x16 Microlux lathe and a Taig micro-mill, and quickly learned the frustrations that come with starting out on these small, low-end machines. Especially if you haven't done this sort of thing before - they're probably great if you already know all there is to know about tool grinding, speeds & feeds, and machine reconditioning.

After spending a while pricing out different new options, including PM, I went the used route. Delivery was the killer : no trucking company is going to come down a dirt road and use a lift gate to drop a machine off in front of my barn.

I found a guy not too far away who had shut down his shop and was looking for sellers for his machines; as part of the deal, he found some riggers willing to take on the job. It was expensive, but he threw in tons of tooling and extras - I don't think I could have got a better deal delivered for the 6K it all ended up costing.

I ended up getting much larger machines than I could have, new, and that makes a huge difference. Get the largest machine you can fit, and if the new ones are too expensive, buy used. And by used, I don't mean "from a used machinery dealer", I mean buy from an owner of the machine who is getting rid of it for a justifiable reason (shutting down shop, replacing with CNC, etc), and who will demonstrate the operation and who might teach you a thing or two in the course of jawin' with 'em.


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## Twirpunky (Jun 15, 2020)

12 x 36 lathe is a good size to start. Big enough for gun work and small enough to load and move  with a good engine hoist. Not much more $ up front and significantly more machine. I have run lathes in an industrial setting for most of 40 years and have never needed or wanted DRO.   The mill is a different story. I have used mills without in many shops but the DRO is a real time and mistake saver on a mill.  For simple stuff a mill without DRO is fine until you try to mill a bolt circle without a dividing head.


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## ropedrag (Jun 15, 2020)

I wanted to thank each of you for the input and also remind everyone that the 11x27 is maxing out the available space I have to work with, without selling out the future space for having a mill and welding table. Which in reality is a bit space suspect as it is.

Hell, everyone pushes the 12x36 or larger so hard it makes me wonder if I should skip the whole idea of a lathe if I cant have one at least that big.

I know the DRO is really only a "nice to have" feature on a lathe and by no means a deal breaker so I typically flip flop at least twice a day, but I think I'll hold off so I don't cheap out on micrometer sets, depth gauges, dial indicators, etc.... and buy good quality measurement tools.


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## Aaron_W (Jun 16, 2020)

ropedrag said:


> I wanted to thank each of you for the input and also remind everyone that the 11x27 is maxing out the available space I have to work with, without selling out the future space for having a mill and welding table. Which in reality is a bit space suspect as it is.
> 
> Hell, everyone pushes the 12x36 or larger so hard it makes me wonder if I should skip the whole idea of a lathe if I cant have one at least that big.
> 
> I know the DRO is really only a "nice to have" feature on a lathe and by no means a deal breaker so I typically flip flop at least twice a day, but I think I'll hold off so I don't cheap out on micrometer sets, depth gauges, dial indicators, etc.... and buy good quality measurement tools.




A lot of members here do have smaller lathes, quite a few of us have 9", 10" and 11" lathes. Some have mini lathes. Few people ever consciously think to themselves I wish I had a smaller lathe, unless they are moving it. I don't think it is uncommon for even those with a large lathe to think, if only it was a little bigger from time to time.
I think a lot of those who recommend going as big as you can is because they started smaller and found they wanted bigger. Unless you come from a machining background and have used a variety of machines it is hard to really pick a perfectly sized machine. I started with much smaller machines, and eventually bought larger. I have no regrets on buying the mini machines and I still use them for the projects I bought them for. I simply found bigger projects that required bigger machines. 

The smaller lathes are still quite capable, just limited to smaller work. Even my tiny Sherline will cut steel.

Most of the readily available smaller lathes do lack some of the features of the 12" and larger lathes, like a full quick change gear box. This may also play a part, the 11" and smaller tend to be thought of as hobby machines and may make cost conscious choices. 12" is about the smallest size of "professional" lathe.
Many of the older lathes of the 9-11" size did have a QCGB as an option, but that is no longer the case, so you will have to rely on manually changing gears to do your full range of threads. This is a convenience issue, not a capability issue. It is easier / faster to move a couple of levers vs opening the cover and swapping some gears around but the material being threaded doesn't care. A lot of members here worked professionally and still have that time is money perspective, so something as inefficient as change gears is a no go for them. For somebody who does this purely as a hobby may not give the extra time a second thought.

You've also mentioned gunsmithing and 12x36 / 13x40 are very popular sizes of lathe with those doing that kind of work which may also be driving a lot of the comments in that direction.


The PM 1127 is a very nice lathe (by specs, and reputation I've not personally used one) but I understand it does require the use of change gears. It has a large 1-1/2" bore equal in size to the PM 12" and 13" lathes. It has a D1-4 spindle which is preferred over the threaded or bolt on chucks used on most of the 10" and smaller lathes. It does have a shorter bed but if you don't plan on doing rifle barrels, that is likely not an issue.

The PM1127 is about a foot short in length than most 12x36 lathes.

Something else to consider particularly if you have done wood working, is on a lathe the work is largely contained within the foot print of the machine. Unlike like a table saw where you may have oversized stock to account for, you don't need a lot of room around most metal working machines. Coming from woodworking, it took me some time to accept that I basically just had to find room for the machine.


In addition to the mill and welding table, make sure to leave room for a metal cutting powersaw of some sort. Most new people seem to forget about this (I did) and relying on an arm powered hacksaw gets old fast.



Anyway I can be long winded but don't be discouraged if people are pushing you towards a machine bigger than you feel you have the room for. Only you know the limits of your space and budget. I will leave you with two photos from my shop though as some food for thought.












These are my original mini-lathe and mini-mill with the (still small by machine tool standards) larger machines I eventually added. When I started out I was sure there was no way I could fit machines bigger than the mini-machines into my house. Necessity finds a way (holiday decorations and gardening tools can live just fine in a shed instead of the basement  ). My larger mill and lathe are of a similar size to the PM1127 lathe and PM25 mill, I am quite content with them.


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## mikey (Jun 16, 2020)

Ropedrag, most of what needed to be said has been said but I did want to add that it looks like its coming down to a choice between a PM1127 or a PM1236. The 1236 is about 11" longer so the space thing matters. However, it might be better to get a smaller welding table and get the bigger lathe (you shouldn't be welding near your machine tools anyway). 

I happen to really like the PM1127 specs. It has most of the good stuff a lathe needs except for a QCGB but if you plan to do any gun work then a longer bed is going to come in handy and like cubic inches, there is just no substitute for length. In addition, the 1236 isn't just longer, it is over twice the weight of the 1127 and that is going to translate into more rigidity. 

Now say you don't do any gun work but just want to make stuff. Either lathe will work for you but the 1236 has a QCGB and that is a big deal. Changing gears is not that much of a hassle but over time, you will be happier with a QCGB; trust me. 

My personal lathe, an Emco Super 11 CD, is only an 11 X 24 with a 1-3/8" spindle bore and it is more than enough for my simple needs. However, it has all the good juju that a good lathe needs and it will be the last lathe I ever buy. Knowing what I know now about what a good lathe should have, I would highly recommend you put some thought into a smaller welding table or find someplace else to put that table and consider the 1236.


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## Tozguy (Jun 16, 2020)

ropedrag, on belay!
we hear you, floor space is the problem. Since you want to be equipped for learning general metal work and don't have specific tasks/jobs planned, a 1127 will give you many hours of learning pleasure. Chances are you will spend more time making tools and tooling than actually making other things. 

There has been some very creative shops set up in limited space. One fellow set up a full shop in a container. The versatility of his shop was an inspiration. In my case, milling on the lathe has been sufficient (so far ). Making my own milling attachment was super fun.

The only unavoidable truth for me is to get the best quality measuring equipment from the start. Not only are quality calipers and micrometers way more pleasant to use but you can actually trust what they say! You can't work to more precision than your instruments can tell you.


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## Twirpunky (Jun 16, 2020)

I am not knocking the 10 or 11 inch lathes. In one shop I worked in (as the only Machinist and Welder) we had two lathes. An older Logan 10 x 24 and a really old 20" x 8'. I did some really nice work on that little lathe.  Probably 75 percent of the lathe work was done on the small lathe.  If 11 x 27 is what you want, by all means get that one.  I went the smaller rout when I bought my first lathe too.  It had to go in the basement of a house I was renting.  When I got a place of my own, I bought a 12 x 36.  Now I own a 14 x 40 and sold the other two.  You can see the progression here.  A lot of people start small and go bigger with time.  I was quite happy with the 12 x 36 and would have kept it.  I got a swinging deal, $1000 for a damaged but almost new 14 x 40.

D


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## ErichKeane (Jun 16, 2020)

Mikey brings up a great point:  Change gears are THE WORST.  I had them on my Logan (until I added a QCGB, not a trivial task!) and would never want to go through having them again.  

What many miss is the gearbox is NOT simply for selecting thread pitches! It doesn't matter if you never end up cutting threads. They are ALSO used for changing auto-feed rates! The auto-feed is basically the only good way to get a consistent feed (for the purposes of consistent surface finish!) and being able to tweak that speed without spending 10 minutes fussing with gears is a god-send.


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## Kiwi Canuck (Jun 16, 2020)

Did you check out the 1228VF-LB, seems it's just 10" longer and not much more expensive.

It also has a QCGB.

BTW Skip the DRO for the lathe, you can add one later if you really want, but not on a mill, worth the money.

David.


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## Janderso (Jun 16, 2020)

mikey said:


> Emco Super 11 CD


Mikey,
I had to check out your lathe.
I didn't know these were made in Austria.
They appear to be a great choice for a hobbiest seeking a quality lathe.





						Emco Maximat Super 11 Lathe
					

Emco lathes and milling machines



					www.lathes.co.uk
				




Here is one on Ebay in California. Not cheap.








						11" x 25" Emco Maximat Super 11 Tool Room Lathe with Grinding attachment    | eBay
					

(1) 11" x 25" Emco Maximat Super 11 Tool Room Lathe. Swing over bed. . Equipped with Spindle bore.  1". 6.5" & 6" 3 jaw chucks. Distance between centers.  Approximate weight.



					www.ebay.com


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## Janderso (Jun 16, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> A lot of members here do have smaller lathes, quite a few of us have 9", 10" and 11" lathes. Some have mini lathes. Few people ever consciously think to themselves I wish I had a smaller lathe, unless they are moving it. I don't think it is uncommon for even those with a large lathe to think, if only it was a little bigger from time to time.
> I think a lot of those who recommend going as big as you can is because they started smaller and found they wanted bigger. Unless you come from a machining background and have used a variety of machines it is hard to really pick a perfectly sized machine. I started with much smaller machines, and eventually bought larger. I have no regrets on buying the mini machines and I still use them for the projects I bought them for. I simply found bigger projects that required bigger machines.
> 
> The smaller lathes are still quite capable, just limited to smaller work. Even my tiny Sherline will cut steel.
> ...


Aaron, you also bring up some good points.
When I went looking for a lathe I went for what I knew. A 13" South Bend. I used one in High School and later in my 20's. I found one and it suited me well until I was forced to start the search again.
I found my current lathe at a local equipment dealer. I ended up with a 7.5 HP 15X50 Colchester.
I probably don't need a lathe this big but on the other hand I have been able to do everything I have needed so far.
It's hard to know what the perfect lathe is when you are starting out. I would have to agree though, lean toward a larger machine = more rigid = more capable. IMHO


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## wrmiller (Jun 16, 2020)

Shoot, if I could get someone to trade me a Sharp copy of a Hardinge HLV for my 1340GT, I'd do it in a heartbeat!  I've not found any takers though...

The primary reason for my buying a lathe this large was to get the Taiwan quality and the Norton gearbox for threading. Not because I need the size/capacity. Everyone has different wants/needs.


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## pontiac428 (Jun 16, 2020)

You did say you want to do some rifle barrels in your future lathe.  That's awesome; it is a rich and rewarding hobby.  If barreling is in your future, you will need every bit of 40 inches between centers unless you go with a big spindle machine that can pass a barrel through the head.  There are reasonable pros and cons to both methods.  I can't pass a barrel through my small spindle, so I work from a steady.  The steady produces good results.  Just something to keep in mind while doing your pondering.


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## Aaron_W (Jun 16, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Mikey brings up a great point:  Change gears are THE WORST.  I had them on my Logan (until I added a QCGB, not a trivial task!) and would never want to go through having them again.
> 
> What many miss is the gearbox is NOT simply for selecting thread pitches! It doesn't matter if you never end up cutting threads. They are ALSO used for changing auto-feed rates! The auto-feed is basically the only good way to get a consistent feed (for the purposes of consistent surface finish!) and being able to tweak that speed without spending 10 minutes fussing with gears is a god-send.



While most of the current 9-11" lathes use change gears for threading, they do have enough of a gearbox to allow a range of speeds for the power feed. They are not as primitive as a vintage lathe without a QCGB.


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## mikey (Jun 16, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Mikey,
> I had to check out your lathe.
> I didn't know these were made in Austria.
> They appear to be a great choice for a hobbiest seeking a quality lathe.



Yup, good lathe and has everything a good lathe needs in terms of features, all machined and assembled in Austria to a DIN tool room standard. It's an 11" lathe but it is a very good 11" lathe.


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## Aukai (Jun 16, 2020)

I have a PM 1228, I have not gone item by item to see the difference with the 1127. Other than a belt change it has worked well.


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## BigWalt (Jun 16, 2020)

Well congrat on the new hobby

I'm new to this as well and I ordered my PM1127 with the dro and few extra tools, now just waiting on it to land state side.
PM was fast and quick to answer my questions.

I say yes order the DRO, it not that great of expense and you save on mounting it.  I think in the long haul it will more and pay for itself.

Good luck whichever way you decide.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 17, 2020)

mikey said:


> However, it might be better to get a smaller welding table and get the bigger lathe (you shouldn't be welding near your machine tools anyway).



Or a smaller mill! Unless you need the full travel of the mill table (e.g. facing a 2' plate), you can just take lighter cuts. Z-axis (throat) depth limitations can be worked around by, say, rotating the head and mounting the rotary table sideways. With a lathe, the bed length and the spindle bore diameter will limit the type of work you can do. As others have mentioned, there are also features on larger lathes (QCGB, power cross-feed) that simply aren't available on the smaller ones. The same can't really be said of mills - the features on the larger ones (knee vs bench, that is) do not differ much from the features of the smaller.


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## Brad125 (Jun 17, 2020)

I was in the same sisuation, i wanted a pm 1127 but couldnt swing it. I ended up getting a Delta Rockwell 11x36 engine lathe and rebuild it... but i have a pm727m to compliment it...


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## ropedrag (Jun 17, 2020)

Continued input from the group is much appreciated, thanks for the guidance guys.

So, while I mentioned I really don't know where this road will lead me in terms of what I'll be doing with the lathe I did mention the potential to thread a barrel or two. So while my intent isn't anywhere close to building a new arsenal please correct me if I'm wrong here (quite possible) but barrel threading (either end), crowning/re-crowning, and chambering are all manageable tasks with the Large Bore 11x27. Turning a new 28" 6.5 creedmore barrel wouldn't work though because of the center to center dimension. However, and I'm not suggesting this as a preferred method, but technically couldn't the barrel be worked in half's or some other ratio 1/3, 2/3 +/-? But at the same time working an AR barrel from 9" pistol length to 20" rifle length should be within the wheelhouse yes?

I'm just looking for what would be a "deal breaker" on the 11x27LB, if a 12x36 is just a matter of convenance or speed or maybe easier and more forgiving to achieve tolerance or is it something more?

Thanks again for the input


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## Brad125 (Jun 17, 2020)

One over looked piece is the ability to attach a spider to the rear of the spindle... im sure you could figure out something for the 1127, it just might be a pain...


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## Brad125 (Jun 17, 2020)

I would get something with a large enough spindle bore to fit the barrel into the spindle and a bed long enough to put bwtween centers.... but there are ways around these shortcomings. I am going to buy my barrel pre-contoured.


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## Aaron_W (Jun 17, 2020)

Be aware 27" is the between centers distance, you have to deduct your chuck, and any other tooling (drill chuck, drill bits etc) you are using from that length. In reality that 27" results in being able to fit a part probably 16-22 ish inches long. 

If the part is small enough you can run it through the spindle and work on only part of it at a time. This works great for small detail areas, but if you are turning the whole length can result in a less attractive surface finish, as you will see where you started and stopped. With enough polishing that can be eliminated, but is added work.


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## Brad125 (Jun 17, 2020)

I would get something 36 in between centers, you will be alot happier not having to compromise if doing gun work.


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## Twirpunky (Jun 18, 2020)

In the end, it is* your* choice of what *you *want and would be happy with. There are pro and cons to all machines. You will have to decide what your needs are, not what others think what is best for you. Everyone has their own idea of what they need and want in a machine.  The best lathe for one person will not be the best lathe for another.  
   The most important factor is "You have a Lathe"   What great fun making chips.  

D


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## Twirpunky (Jun 18, 2020)

Oops  Posted twice


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 18, 2020)

1 1/2" is a respectable spindle bore. The 1127VF-LB looks a bit on the light side ... well, it did until I saw the 1228VF-LB which should be beefier but, strangely, isn't. Seems to have most of the features you'd want, pretty good bang for the buck, so just remember to keep the space beyond the headstock free so you can use that spindle bore.


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## frugalguido (Jun 18, 2020)

mikey said:


> Yup, good lathe and has everything a good lathe needs in terms of features, all machined and assembled in Austria to a DIN tool room standard. It's an 11" lathe but it is a very good 11" lathe.


I bought  my Emco Super 11 brand new back in the early eighties with all the accessories except for the tool post grinder. It wasn't cheap back then! When I look at the offering of what you can buy today from the far east, one word comes to mind, "fit and finish" The Emco has great "fit and finish" the dials are nice, gear changes are smooth, power feeds work well, etc. Hardly ever need a bigger lathe and if I do I can use other peoples bigger lathe for a one off job. But, I wish I would have been able to afford a Emco V13 at the time looking back.


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## Kiwi Canuck (Jun 18, 2020)

ThinWoodsman said:


> 1 1/2" is a respectable spindle bore. The 1127VF-LB looks a bit on the light side ... well, it did until I saw the 1228VF-LB which should be beefier but, strangely, isn't. Seems to have most of the features you'd want, pretty good bang for the buck, so just remember to keep the space beyond the headstock free so you can use that spindle bore.



I checked the spec's and the 1228 shows as being lighter by about 80lbs, could that be the difference between the regular AC motor and related equipment to convert it to variable speed versus a DC motor? seems a big difference, maybe a typo.


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## wrmiller (Jun 18, 2020)

I don't know if that's the difference between motors, but A/C motors are boat anchors compared to a BLDC motor and controls.


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## Aaron_W (Jun 18, 2020)

ThinWoodsman said:


> 1 1/2" is a respectable spindle bore. The 1127VF-LB looks a bit on the light side ... well, it did until I saw the 1228VF-LB which should be beefier but, strangely, isn't. Seems to have most of the features you'd want, pretty good bang for the buck, so just remember to keep the space beyond the headstock free so you can use that spindle bore.



I think you have to take the weights with a grain of salt, some of the PM lathes only give one weight without a qualifier, some give with and without stand, and some show both the shipping and machine only weights. 

The 1228 lists 490lbs without stand, 600lbs with. The 1127 only shows a single weight of 575lbs, is that with a stand, is that the shipping weight?

Still that is surprisingly light for a 12" lathe, my Logan 11x24 weighs 950lbs with its steel stand. Then again it isn't 1950 where the answer is always more weight (and taller tail fins), there have been advancements in engineering and material technology over the past 70 years.


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## wrmiller (Jun 18, 2020)

Back in the 'old days' you achieved rigidity in machines by pouring more iron casting. Today, with better grades of iron and steel, and better design rules/computer modeling, just more weight is not always better. Weight, in and of itself, does not a more rigid machine make. But I hear the comment made that it does quite often around here. I used to try to educate, but now I just roll my eyes and move on.


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