# El400 (EL403-M-v5-3 axis) DRO from PM, built by Electronica - three questions please :)



## MERLIncMan (Nov 23, 2020)

Gentlemen,

     Have it installed on Milly (727V).

I must begin with two "philosophical position statements", that strike me as the raison d'etre of forums like this one: 

                1. If you can't open it, you don't own it (gatekeepers can bite it - I bought it, it's mine! I'm not concerned with warrantee, I'm concerned with my concerns!)
                2. "Why" isn't really a valid question in the context of a home machine shop....
                                (got that last one from This Old Tony, and it is self-evidently true. One who asks "why would you, when you could... or should..." doesn't really understand)

Examining the documentation and the gizmo, there is a USB-b connector on the back, and the PDF instructions I've attached discusses serial communication (section 10.3).

1. There is the oEn_nod option that asks for a password - PM tech support seems confused by the existence of that - anyone know the password? (Electronica is thus far unresponsive). I am offended by a tool, that I own, ever saying "no" to me - What do you mean no? I own you! Obey me, tool!

2. The table of contents briefly says RS232 serial, but USB is NOT RS232 - if this thing is RS232, the discussed Hyper Terminal connection would be impossible without a hardware converter - Chart shows 8-n-1 serial protocol, so the USB should be outputting really generic binary, simple to read via serial gizmos, and should be 5v - but RS232 is 12v... I'm looking to output real-time position data via USB, but the options SERIAL and SER_CON shown in the documentation does not appear on my DRO... WTH? Any info on that?

3. What kind of switch is the probe input looking for? NC or NO? I am not about to spend $900 on a switch-on-a-stick from DROPros (sapphire or no sapphire, that's indefensible). It's a 3.5mm mono-phono, easy enough to make - but does it want a normally open or normally closed switch?

Any help would be awesome - remember the days when you could twist some wires on a parallel port, write three lines in BASIC, and make something go?


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## ttabbal (Nov 23, 2020)

I don't know for sure the answers to your questions, but I do agree with the perspective. My rule with electronics is that if I'm not "root", I don't own it. Which irritates me when they charge a ton for them. 

For your serial interface, I'm thinking it's an older manual that the manufacturer didn't bother to update. The USB port could connect to a PC and identify as a serial port, which would then be able to work the same way. That's not real helpful if you're trying to connect a microcontroller or similar. I do wish manufactures would be clear on serial voltages as well. +/-12 is a big difference from 0/5. I just don't trust them until I've checked with a logic analyzer or scope. The import USB connected LAs are cheap and work well for low speed stuff, and are safe for real RS232 voltages that would kill a micro. Note that there are microcontrollers that can do USB host, so if your connection is the type that works that way, you don't need anything real powerful to talk to it, it's just more complex now. 

For the switch, I'd just try it both ways with a test setup. It's just a contact closure, so get a switch from the junk box or ebay or whatever, solder it to a plug and try both. Or even just twisted wires and see which way triggers the unit. Then you know and can buy a nice one as desired. It's insane that a high dollar probe can't swap between them with a jumper or something. sheesh. 

You can get the same effect as the old parallel port stuff on micros. It's not ideal if you want to talk to it from a normal computer, but it is possible. If you want to do some really simple stuff similar to that, look up the UBW boards. I don't know if they still work on the project, but they are a super simple to use setup that connects to the PC with USB, and you just send serial commands to read/write the pins on the controller. The PC side can easily be BASIC, Python, shell scripts, whatever. Raspberry Pi boards have some of the same capabilities, and a bunch of extras.


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## MERLIncMan (Nov 23, 2020)

ttabbal said:


> I don't know for sure the answers to your questions, but I do agree with the perspective. My rule with electronics is that if I'm not "root", I don't own it. Which irritates me when they charge a ton for them.
> 
> For your serial interface, I'm thinking it's an older manual that the manufacturer didn't bother to update. The USB port could connect to a PC and identify as a serial port, which would then be able to work the same way. That's not real helpful if you're trying to connect a microcontroller or similar. I do wish manufactures would be clear on serial voltages as well. +/-12 is a big difference from 0/5. I just don't trust them until I've checked with a logic analyzer or scope. The import USB connected LAs are cheap and work well for low speed stuff, and are safe for real RS232 voltages that would kill a micro. Note that there are microcontrollers that can do USB host, so if your connection is the type that works that way, you don't need anything real powerful to talk to it, it's just more complex now.
> 
> ...



You're awesome - not to get all weird or anything, but I'm rather accustomed to the wankers over on Arduino and Chrysler forums that don't bother to answer the question while they beat you over the head with their credential, and tell you how dumb you are for not already knowing the answer to the question you asked   

I will continue on this adventure.  I thought that the probe switch could be just checked one way or the other, not my first 3.5mm phono accessory - or even the first probe (made one for my 6040T CNC).

I'm thinking of just plugging the USB into my laptop and seeing if Hyper Terminal can see the alleged binary stream.

OH! Mike from PM is totally a lurker here!  He saw my post and let me know that the RS232 isn't in reference to the USB-b outlet, but rather the 15pin accessory thing (that I don't have in my unit)

So at least I'm not concerned about a voodoo USB signal! Thanks Mike!


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## mksj (Nov 23, 2020)

I have the EL700
Probe is NC, no active electronics, just goes open when contacts an object. Tormach use to sell the same one for much less, but you would need a different jack, most other passive ones should work. Since it is just a switch, accuracy is around 0.001" I changed my probe to a larger ball to give more sensitivity. The probe and replacement probes tips through DRO Pros are ridiculously expensive, there are much less expensive alternatives.

USB port, at least on mine is only for software updates, and according to DRO Pros you would need to send it in to them to do this. Evidently it only works on one PC that they have, no direct support from Electronica on this matter at least when I checked for the EL700. On this level the Electronica  DRO's take a back seat to many of the other mainstream DRO's available in the US that allow user updates.  
Per my manual:
Auxiliary Connectors: 15-Pin D-Type Female for Auxiliary Output (Optional) 
Jack Plug connector for Probe input (Optional) 
USB B type Connector (for service only)

Not aware of a RS232 port per se, it does have a auxiliary connector option but does not seem to be your usual port, not a clear description of what it outputs. Also to view the output on a PC you need their software, not sure why one would want this implemented or how. If you have specific technical questions, I would direct them directly to Electronica. http://www.electronicaems.com


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## MERLIncMan (Nov 23, 2020)

mksj said:


> I have the EL700
> Probe is NC, no active electronics, just goes open when contacts an object. Tormach use to sell the same one for much less, but you would need a different jack, most other passive ones should work. Since it is just a switch, accuracy is around 0.001" I changed my probe to a larger ball to give more sensitivity. The probe and replacement probes tips through DRO Pros are ridiculously expensive, there are much less expensive alternatives.
> 
> USB port, at least on mine is only for software updates, and according to DRO Pros you would need to send it in to them to do this. Evidently it only works on one PC that they have, no direct support from Electronica on this matter at least when I checked for the EL700. On this level the Electronica  DRO's take a back seat to many of the other mainstream DRO's available in the US that allow user updates.
> ...




Awesome, thanks!

FYI, I want to use the binary stream (8-n-1 serial) (section 10.3 of the included PDF claims it is see-able in Hyper Terminal) to dictate the motion of a stepper, that would then turn my BS-0 Dividing Head, so as to allow for helical milling - no room for a universal-gear-driven-DH ($$$) with my powerfeed.
Also, Mike from PM cleared up the RS232 strangeness.


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## MikeWi (Nov 23, 2020)

I didn't really clear it up though. They are clearly referring the the DB15 connector, but they then describe using it to power relays for EDM, or for signaling high/low for tool positioning, and then they just say it can be used for communications with their software, so they aren't really saying much.


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## MERLIncMan (Nov 23, 2020)

MikeWi said:


> I didn't really clear it up though. They are clearly referring the the DB15 connector, but they then describe using it to power relays for EDM, or for signaling high/low for tool positioning, and then they just say it can be used for communications with their software, so they aren't really saying much.



Sorry to have called you out Mike 

One could wish for thorough documentation to accompany every gizmo.

I don't know if I'm barking the wrong tree or not... maybe helical milling will be withheld from me by conspiracy of proprietary documentation... RPi did the same thing with their DSI port.

Wish I had gotten an engineering degree rather than having worked in engineering - then I'd be able to do the things, rather than just build them 

Thanks though - I did appreciate your help, whatever the thing.


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## svideo (Apr 3, 2021)

I've been looking into this and I think the deal is that the serial communication capability is an optional feature.  I recently purchased a 728VT and it came with the EL403-M v5 DRO.

As others have noted, this device is made by Electronica Mechatronic Systems and the USB vendor ID "1D32" aligns with that.  The product page for this device shows several variants.  There's the "EL403-M 3 Axes Mill" which is what PM appears to be sending out, and there's the "EL413-M 3 Axes Mill with Options" model which I suspect is what we need in order to enable the serial output.  The manual labels that port as "15-Pin D-Type Female For Auxiliary Output (Optional)".  As noted, there is no guidance in the manual as to where one might be able to connect via serial, but I think it's likely intended to be accessed from the DSub15 option port, and also suggests that option port is only available on models listed as "with options".

According to the manual, the option output might have a couple different pinouts depending on the specific model in use.  The EDM variant should have the following pinout:






While models "with options" have the following pinout:




Pins 5,7,8,13, and 14 are unused in both, which might be likely candidates for the serial capability.

Inside the device we can take a look at the IO PCB which has the various connectors and supporting components that face the back of the device.

Rear:





Front:





This board has two ribbon cables (one disconnected in the photo above) which both connect to the main controller board.  Going back to our list of unaccounted for pins, visually I find the following:


*Pin**Connection*5Ribbon J2 to main PCB7NC8Power (connects to red/black cable and fuse F1)13Ribbon J2 to main PCB14Bridged to pin 15 (SW- for EDM variants)

There are also several unpopulated footprints near this port, which might mean that the necessary components for serial output are not present.  However, based on the table above, I think pins 5 and 13 might be good starting points for investigation.

I have some PCB mount DSub 15 connectors on order and will solder those in place which will make this hunt a little easier.


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## svideo (Apr 3, 2021)

OK skip that, I dug out some probes which let me take a look at pins 5 and 13 while under power (but disconnected from the encoder inputs).  No signal on either pin 

I also note that serial options are not available in the setup menus, which suggests the feature may be software disabled on this specific variant.


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## Janderso (Apr 3, 2021)

I have the same DRO but you guys are speaking in that funny techno-digital world that eludes me.
I really like it but it’s way more capable than me.


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## svideo (Apr 3, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I have the same DRO but you guys are speaking in that funny techno-digital world that eludes me.



I come to this forum as someone who has a pretty solid handle on digital circuits and zero knowledge whatsoever on machining, so here was an opportunity to actually contribute something (even if it's a negative result).

If it makes you feel better, I have the same reaction to nearly every other thread in this forum   I'll get the hang of this metal stuff some day!


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## Janderso (Apr 3, 2021)

svideo said:


> I come to this forum as someone who has a pretty solid handle on digital circuits and zero knowledge whatsoever on machining, so here was an opportunity to actually contribute something (even if it's a negative result).
> 
> If it makes you feel better, I have the same reaction to nearly every other thread in this forum   I'll get the hang of this metal stuff some day!


I used the DRO this afternoon. I was using the 1/2 feature to center the cutter over the part. I noticed when I zeroed out Y to move to the other side, the display did not show the movement.
I powered down for a few minute, now it’s fine.
A bit panicked over that experience.


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## MERLIncMan (Apr 14, 2021)

svideo said:


> I've been looking into this and I think the deal is that the serial communication capability is an optional feature.  I recently purchased a 728VT and it came with the EL403-M v5 DRO.
> 
> As others have noted, this device is made by Electronica Mechatronic Systems and the USB vendor ID "1D32" aligns with that.  The product page for this device shows several variants.  There's the "EL403-M 3 Axes Mill" which is what PM appears to be sending out, and there's the "EL413-M 3 Axes Mill with Options" model which I suspect is what we need in order to enable the serial output.  The manual labels that port as "15-Pin D-Type Female For Auxiliary Output (Optional)".  As noted, there is no guidance in the manual as to where one might be able to connect via serial, but I think it's likely intended to be accessed from the DSub15 option port, and also suggests that option port is only available on models listed as "with options".
> 
> ...


WOW!

Talk about above and beyond!

I don't remember exactly where the rabbit trail took me, but I remember that I eventually got real with myself that the practical avenue for a digitally tied dividing head would be by means of a second encoder - hack one of the iGaging linear scales through a 'duino to make what would essentially be a Division Master with an extra option.

Too bad Division Master is effectively a dead product - I know I could hunt one down if I were nuts about it, but best I can see, the guy who made it won't make them anymore, and the guys who are selling them aren't really all that interested in actually selling them.

I may eventually get to this project, but it's WAY down on the budget now - things like the Methane digester and natural gas regulator for the generator are taking precedence (effectively, I want to have the option to run the house or shop on dog doo and kitchen waste - among other smelly stuff - on account of "less-than-faith-inspiring" recent domestic supply news issues....)

In any case - thank you for having verified that the ELM won't really do. I imagine I could tap into the encoders directly at the solder-joints behind the connector, and add in a breakout to the DRO box itself - there is a knockout for that optional serial connector. I recall that the included encoders are TTL 5v (was it 40mHz? can't remember off hand)....

But, you my friend... YOU are an awesome investigator!

Or, you're just like the rest of us and having unanswered questions about the capabilities of our own machines irritates you too...   

Thanks again brother!


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## 7milesup (Apr 15, 2021)

^^^Methane digester huh?  That is interesting.  I know a guy from here that used to build digesters for the mega dairies around here.


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## MERLIncMan (Apr 15, 2021)

7milesup said:


> ^^^Methane digester huh?  That is interesting.  I know a guy from here that used to build digesters for the mega dairies around here.


Excellent! I may have to begin another thread for this particular gizmo. Between the "Pyrolic Reactor" (aka 'Wood Gasifier' but Pyrolic Reactor sounds so much cooler) and a decent enough methane digester, I'll produce copious amounts of gas from garbage; in both systems cleaning the gas is actually the more intense part in both design and execution.

Actually, in the digester it is the storage of the gas that is the issue - I don't like large balloons (pop - with a bit of doom in this case) so I'd like to have the "floating barrel accumulator" design, but finding a large barrel to fit within another barrel is proving to be troublesome in my region...

Anyways - you inspire me to actually make the thread 

Keep an eye out for the super-secret awesome device soon... just have to make a heat-exchanger and I'll be posting it (God willing and the creek don't rise and all of that....)


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## svideo (Apr 18, 2021)

@MERLIncMan I've been monkeying around with some alternatives on the DRO front and I think I might have found something you would like.  I ordered the TouchDRO DIY kit for $49 and designed and printed an enclosure for it:














Then I picked up a refurb Amazon Fire HD 10 tablet for $80 and designed and printed an enclosure for the tablet with a VESA screw pattern on the back, plus a VESA mount for the DRO arm that PM ships:









And the result looks like this:





The TouchDRO project supports a variety of scales, the one linked above works with the 5V scales sold by PM.  That project reads the scales and provides a serial dump of the readings via bluetooth.  So, if one were so inclined, you could take that stream and do whatever with it.  The project also includes a mobile app which will take that bluetooth data stream and function as a DRO, but with a bunch of extra features.

The next step will be to get a tachometer sorted out and I should be able to have chip load calculated on the fly.

I am still working out some changes to the design here, I'd like the VESA mount "nod" hinge to be a little more skookum than it currently is, but it's finally usable in the current state.  I'll get the source files cleaned up and posted on my github + thingiverse sometime here soon once I have the hinge improved a bit.


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## MERLIncMan (Apr 18, 2021)

Well then, Look at what you've done here!

It is most certainly a very clean install.  As I've already got the DRO, perhaps I can mess with your set to make it a pass-through... hmmm... a simple pass through to the stock DRO, but giving a bunch of breakouts that I can then use as I wish.... send the DRO to my phone, use it to control slave axes, someday use it to talk to a maybe CNC addon....

Too many thinks! You're going to have me bankrupt!   

I very much like your setup - made me half envious for a minute. I also appreciate your having made so much available for people.

Again - well done, and thank you!


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## Ischgl99 (Apr 18, 2021)

7milesup said:


> ^^^Methane digester huh?  That is interesting.  I know a guy from here that used to build digesters for the mega dairies around here.


I used to work on the machines that dewatered the solids in those digesters, but I liked the dairy ones better than the wastewater ones, and so did the guy cleaning my rental car afterwards lol.


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## svideo (Apr 22, 2021)

Finally got all my designs published for the setup shown above:


3D printed enclosure for the TouchDRO DIY kit.  This is an inexpensive solution for reading the digital scales and sending the result to your tablet via bluetooth
A Fire HD 10 Pro tablet enclosure with VESA mount.  I picked the Fire HD because you can get them refurb for cheap and there are a zillion of them out there, so you should be able to pick one up on eBay 5 years from now.
A VESA mount adapter for a common DRO mounting arm.  This is designed to work with the DRO mount that PM shipped with the 728VT.


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