# Looking for ways to precisely cut apart 3 piece aluminum car wheels



## allhorizon (Feb 24, 2017)

Hello Hobby Machinists, My name is Jamel and I am a New Yorker that has been living in Osaka, Japan for over 5 years. I am an automotive enthusiast so I have used tools like drill presses, impact wrenches and angle grinders but for what I am trying to do, I hope to be a bit more precise.

I have a set of car wheels that are three piece welded construction.

The Inner Barrel is welded to the Outer Barrel all around the circumference and I am looking for a way to cut the weld to remove the outer barrel from the wheel assembly. 

At the moment, I simply have the wheels and a spare wheel hub from a car that will allow me to rotate the wheel if attached to a spindle of some sort. 

What I am looking for is ideas on how to precisely cut the wheel apart (Simple or complex)

I assume a lathe would be one way to do it but I don't know what size lathe I would need or if there is a more analog way I could do this within limited space constraints.

Any Ideas or input would be appreciated. If you suggest a lathe, what size would be able to cut apart a wheel that is 17-18" in diameter?

I'd be very grateful for any assistance and advice!

(Note: I tried to attach photos to help explain but it wouldn't let me create the thread with the photos...)


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## FOMOGO (Feb 24, 2017)

A picture or two would be helpful. Are you attempting to widen the wheels? Are the wheels steel or aluminum? Quite a few ways to skin this cat from highly mechanized, to very backyard. You would need a pretty good sized lathe to approach it from that direction. Below are a few examples, Google is your friend here. Mike


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## allhorizon (Feb 24, 2017)

As stated in the title, they are aluminum wheels and I want to widen the wheels but in a different way than shown in those videos (not welding in bands but replacing the entire outer barrel with a new one).

 Because the wheels are aluminum, I am afraid of using an angle grinder because of heat and possibly warping the wheels.


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## DHarris (Feb 24, 2017)

The most accurate way (and also most expensive too I fear) would be to take them to some company with a water jet cutter.  NO heat and supremely accurate.  But expensive for one-offs  (or in this case 2 or 4 offs).

Good luck - let us know how it turns out.


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## FOMOGO (Feb 24, 2017)

Don't see the word aluminum anywhere in your original post. Of course I'm old and my eyesight isn't all that great. Mike



allhorizon said:


> As stated in the title, they are aluminum wheels and I want to widen the wheels but in a different way than shown in those videos (not welding in bands but replacing the entire outer barrel with a new one).
> 
> Because the wheels are aluminum, I am afraid of using an angle grinder because of heat and possibly warping the wheels.


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## RandyM (Feb 24, 2017)

FOMOGO said:


> Don't see the word aluminum anywhere in your original post. Of course I'm old and my eyesight isn't all that great. Mike



Hey Mikey,

Yeah, he neglected to restate it in his post, but he did put it in the Title of the thread.


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## FOMOGO (Feb 24, 2017)

Thanks. Like I said, old and blind, and suffering through the crud, which seems to be fogging the brain a bit more than usual. Cheers, Mike


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## Nogoingback (Feb 24, 2017)

So, what you really want to do is remove the "rim" from the hub/spoke portion of the wheel and weld a new rim on, is that right?  The method you use will have to be pretty precise because the
OD of the "center portion" has to match the ID of the new rim exactly, and it has to be concentric to the hub.  You need someone with a big lathe.  You could start by bandsawing
off the majority of the rim, and then turning the remainder down to the dimension you need.

The other question that comes to mind concerns welding the parts together.  I certainly
don't know the answer, but you need to make sure that the welds are strong enough to
SAFELY handle the loads imposed.  I don't know how wheels are welded, but there may
be heat treating involved after welding.  You should find out.  Rim failure at speed is not
a good outcome.


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## Tozguy (Feb 24, 2017)

Just an impression but the wheel work you plan to do seems to be a big jump from what you are used to, to more complicated machining. The machining for wheels like that would have to be done on a lathe by someone with experience. Do you also have to turn another set of wheels to get the second half of the new wheel? Then there is the turning after welding get things aesthetic and concentric. 
I do hope you don't try this with magnesium wheels.

If we are talking aluminum wheels for automobiles I would check to see how much it would cost to contract the work out versus the cost of buying new wheels ready to go.


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## pineyfolks (Feb 24, 2017)

You could possibly make a pilot to fit the center of the wheel and an arm to mount a plasma cutter adjusted to the diameter you need.


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## tq60 (Feb 24, 2017)

There are many red flags here as asking how means little understanding of the end result.

First there ate many wheel companies where one can buy a wheel so the assumption is this is a "special case" and that matters a bunch.

If for a garden tractor safety not much concern or if a show car that only is trailered and not driven on the road and a real odd ball custom is needed then maybe but if you plan on driving this on the highway please stop and do something else.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## Cobra (Feb 24, 2017)

Tozguy said:


> Just an impression but the wheel work you plan to do seems to be a big jump from what you are used to, to more complicated machining. The machining for wheels like that would have to be done on a lathe by someone with experience. Do you also have to turn another set of wheels to get the second half of the new wheel? Then there is the turning after welding get things aesthetic and concentric.
> I do hope you don't try this with magnesium wheels.
> 
> If we are talking aluminum wheels for automobiles I would check to see how much it would cost to contract the work out versus the cost of buying new wheels ready to go.



I had good luck several years ago talking to American Racing for custom wheels


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## allhorizon (Feb 24, 2017)

Thanks for all of your replies!

I understand it is a big jump in what I am used to but the reason I ask for advice on how to do it on my own as opposed to contracting it out is that I believe this is something I would do more than once or twice. I have a bit of an addiction to wheels and have access to narrow wheels at affordable pricing and I am not afraid to invest in my hobby if I can learn. Another issue is that being in Japan, some companies I've talked to won't even consider helping due to liability or the cost is astronomical. 

I would be removing the original outer rims and replacing them with new outer rims made specifically for this purpose (not removed from another wheel). They would need to be welded back together which I have not overlooked and that part is something I do not mind contracting out since I have only used a tig welder once. I just want to do as much as I can by myself if possible.

I have done a bit more research and it seems like a lathe with a wheel hub attached to the spindle and the aluminum wheel bolted to the hub is how it is spun. Then a cutting bit (carbide?) is used to cut the weld while the wheel rotates.

If I were to get a metal lathe, what should I consider as far as size? How can I judge if the lathe will give me enough working area to rotate the wheels?


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## Nogoingback (Feb 24, 2017)

You didn't indicate the size of the wheel, but if it's 15 or 16 inches in diameter, you're talking a pretty large lathe.  Buying one in that size range would not make sense to make a few modified wheels:
it would be much more cost effective to find a machine shop to do the work for you.


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## allhorizon (Feb 24, 2017)

Apologies. Most of the wheels would be 14" or 15" in diameter.

Perhaps it would be more cost effective to find a machine shop but for my own edification, I'd like to know what to look for in a lathe.


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## allhorizon (Feb 24, 2017)

For example, would something like this be suitable?

http://page10.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/m191826426

I know most people cannot read Japanese but refer to the photos


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## Nogoingback (Feb 24, 2017)

allhorizon said:


> Apologies. Most of the wheels would be 14" or 15" in diameter.
> 
> Perhaps it would be more cost effective to find a machine shop but for my own edification, I'd like to know what to look for in a lathe.



That's a pretty big question.   At a basic level, lathes are categorized by what is called "swing".  Think
about the distance from the center of the spindle to the bed of the lathe, or more likely the carriage that supports the tool used to do the machining.  If you
chuck a 16 inch wheel into the lathe, you need more than half the diameter of the wheel in terms of that distance, which is 8 inches in your case.  My lathe is
a 10" lathe, which means it's about 5 inches from the center of the spindle to the bed.  You would need a lathe bigger than 16 inches, which makes it a large,
industrial lathe.  Apart from the cost of buying a machine like that, you have to have a place to put it, electrical power sufficient to power it, tooling, which
 in those sizes is quite expensive, and the knowledge to run it.  You also have to hire riggers to move a machine that big.  Buying a lathe like that makes absolutely no sense if all you need to do is modify a few rims.


To be honest with you, I think you need to talk with people who build and modify wheels
for a living to find out how to properly accomplish your task.  There have to be people in
the race car world that perform that kind of work, and who can advise you on how it's done,
 and in a manner that guarantees that your wheels will be functionally correct as
well as safe.

You have engineering questions to answer, as well as fabrication questions.


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## Chuck K (Feb 24, 2017)

You basically need a lathe that will swing at least 15" over the cross slide. I can't tell what size the lathe in the pic is, but if I  had to guess I'd say it's probably a 14 or 15.  But that just means that it will swing a piece of that diameter over the ways. If you have to get your cross slide under the piece to work the OD it wouldn't be large enough. Of course I could be wrong about the size of the lathe pictured.


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## brino (Feb 24, 2017)

@allhorizon
Hi Jamel,

Cool! You are in one of the meccas of precise machining and are asking about do-it-yourself machining!
I......love.......it!!

Despite some of the skeptics I believe __anything__ can be done in the home shop. (see my signature!)
You just gotta know your materials, your tools, your required tolerances,.........AND if you are capable of reaching them.

With anything you have to know the limits and do your homework.
With automotive wheels you want it concentric, you want it balanced, you need it to seal....and all within the limits of the rubber.

However, the rubber and the air pressure will hide a bunch of sins.
If it's off by a couple thou. no one will care or notice.

With that said, you'd need a lathe of substantial proportions. Not just able to swing that diameter, but also of rigid construction for the mass involved. The steps would likely be:
1) acquire a lathe big enough for this (and anything else your considering),
2) find a way to hold the work piece (you say you have a spare spindle),
3) indicate the work piece to the required tolerance (dial indicator, etc.),
4) do the cut (managing the off-cut in an appropriate way)
5) align the pieces very precisely
6) weld away

hmmm......I wonder if a balancing machine of appropriate proportions could be used as a lathe with a makeshift tool post.....

Welding aluminum is much trickier than steel. I have had aluminum collapse before I noticed a state change from solid to liquid.
Magnesium might me another kettle of monkeys.

Note: I am only speculating on how I'd approach the problem. I have not preformed the act successfully. I've been wrong ONCE before!

-brino

PS: when you are able to post pictures that will help greatly!


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## allhorizon (Feb 24, 2017)

A 6" vise is overkill for a RF45 style mill. A 4" is more appropiate for that size mill & IMO 5" max. I have a 5" GMT vise on my PM45 & it's slightly too big. Not enough Y axis travel to make use of the 5" full capacity. Better to save your money rather than getting something too big & most importantly the weight. I take my vise of the table quite often, a 6" is still light enough for me to be carried by hand but I'm glad I have a 5". I also have a 4" vise as well. I prefer the 5" though.

But those GMT 6" Premium vises are pretty nice. I'd love to have one but don't need one on my current mill. But if you plan on upgrading to a full size knee mill in the future than the 6" will be perfect.


Here's what the 5" looks like on my mill.




I couldn't even complete this cut without my bellows & DRO scale getting in the way. Not enough Y travel & the 5" vise is not even maxed out.




Here's what a 6" vise looks like on another PM45 (gt40's)
View attachment 253544


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## Nogoingback (Feb 24, 2017)

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to suggest it can't be done.  I was suggesting that you do your homework first to make sure it's done right.

As for buying a lathe, that of course can be done as well.  Without knowing how much you can spend on something like that, it's hard to know
what the answer would be.  If you want own a big lathe, by all means buy one.  But if you want to just get some wheels machined, there are easier and cheaper
ways to get it done.


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## Grumpy Gator (Feb 24, 2017)

_Sounds like a job for a "Gap Bed " lathe. I have changed the back set on steel wheels before but have never tried AL. As stated be very certain no magnesium is in the alloy. Fire hazard  high , only way to extinguish is Co2 or Halon gas. Not fun ask how I know._
_**G**  _


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## dennys502 (Feb 25, 2017)

That looks to be about an 8" chuck by the tape measure - and it looks like close to an 8" swing over the bed. The rim might clear the bed but getting to the center of the rim to cut the weld would be difficult. Looks like the asking price is around $3210.
As has been suggested it would be easier and cheaper to have the welds cut for you. Then all you have to do is the welding.


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## Tozguy (Feb 25, 2017)

As mentioned above, it will take a lathe with enough 'swing' to accommodate the largest wheel you will need to turn. To turn large diameters like that, it will also take a lot of torque to power the cut. So we are talking more about an industrial lathe than a hobby lathe. That might also mean that your electrical supply has to be industrial as opposed to domestic. 

My 12x36 gap bed lathe with a 2 HP motor (220 V single phase) would not be able to do this kind of work. The suggestion above that you visit local machine shops that are equipped to do that kind of work makes a lot of sense. This would also give you a visual on what kind of lathe to look for and it might even turn up a used lathe that you know would work at a price you could afford.


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## Tozguy (Feb 25, 2017)

Another approach could possibly be with a brake disc turning machine.
OR, if it was me and the bolt pattern fit my car, I would look at parting the wheels on the car using a large hacksaw blade in a homemade jig. There would be enough torque running the car at idle.
The idea of parting off with a hacksaw blade has been shown in other threads here. The jig would float on the floor and be positioned with adjustable rollers against the rim. All the operator would have to do is squirt WD40 on the cut.

By large hacksaw blade I mean the Sandvik as opposed to a manual size blade.


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## brino (Feb 25, 2017)

Lots of great responses (as expected from this group!)

The gap bed lathe suggestion is a great one.

I would think a 2hp lathe would do it, but getting that big swing could be costly.

Note with a diameter that large the surface feet per minute(sfpm) of the work piece sailing past the tool would be high even with moderate spindle rpms. For a high-speed steel (HSS) tool you'd want around 110 sfpm, or only about 30 rpm for that 15" diameter!
I don't have recommended sfpm for cutting Al with carbide tools in front of me, more homework for you......

Tooling up to do this yourself would be expensive (likely more than the cost of the new rims), but it is possible.
Only you can decide if the cost is worth it. 

I tweaked my post #19 above. Aligning the two pieces for welding will be critical. It would likely require some sort of large jig. A nice big slow welding lathe would also help.

Maybe you've found a niche market to fill in your part of the world...... "All Horizon Rims and Wheels of Osaka"
Please let us know how it goes!

-brino


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## Wreck™Wreck (Feb 25, 2017)

A Vertical Turrett Lathe would make short work of that such as those produced by Bullard. Since you are not planning on running parts longer then automotive wheels, (long shafting for example), they take up far less floor space then an engine lathe of appropriate size, also they are easier to load.
They have many uses in turning large diameter short parts so I suspect that there are Japanese companies that produced them as well. 
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/f4/73/f6/f473f6aca9cb07107881e538e6b8ff2e.jpg


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## coherent (Feb 25, 2017)

The best answer I've seen so far is a waterjet.  A large fiber laser could do it, but they are extremely expensive and not something a corner shop would have. They would likely charge less to waterjet cut them than a machinist who has a lathe that could handle this operation and it would be cut in a fraction of the time and effort. 
As far as using an angle grinder like the video the heat would be minimal  and you can always mist to cool. If you have to weld in the band to widen the wheel the TIG welding is going to produce a heck of a lot more heat than the angle grinder. The quality of the welds will determine it's safety... not the cuts. In the US most places would not even touch a wheel like this to modify it due to liability issues. I don't know about Japan. I'm sure you could weld it yourself or have a friend do so, but I would think you'd want to ensure you/they knew what they were doing. With a decent weld I think there is very little chance of the wheel ever "separating" at the weld. Balancing the wheel would be the issue.
Good luck!


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## BobSchu (Feb 25, 2017)

I'm thinking if it were me I would consider having the first one done by a machine shop while I watched. Watching how a pro does it will answer a lot of questions about how this can be accomplished and what machinery you may need to consider purchasing/borrowing/making. With a project with pieces as large as wheels, the injury risk is pretty high if you've never tried this before if you consider how much mass a spinning wheel ring can create once cut off and free to roam around your shop (or foot, or arm, or.....).  I like to DIY my projects, but I've learned the hard way to ask lots of questions of people who have accomplished the same task or similar tasks in person so I understand clearly what is meant. Sometimes machinist terms can sound like an alien language to someone with little experience, IMHO.
A lot of great suggestions above, but the most helpful IMO are the ones about safety and considering hiring someone to do this while you start out on smaller projects on a lathe just to learn the ins and outs of lathe operation. 

Bob


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## Iceberg86300 (Feb 25, 2017)

Do you know how were these wheels originally manufactured? The thru hole bolt/nut arrangement is very intriguing, and may come into play here. 3 piece "lookalikes" usually just have the outside bolts threaded into the wheel centers.

It looks like the inner and outer rims locate on the center. So were these things bolted together and then only the rim halves welded together? Or does that weld penetrate into the center? 

 Apologies if this line of questions isn't relevant as I'm on my phone and can't see the pics very well.

This question could make a HUGE difference in how you could proceed.


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## Rustrp (Feb 25, 2017)

I've read through the replies to your question which brings up more questions and a lot more questions to the suggestions. From a safety standpoint are you modifying the wheels for yourself or a customer. Liability,,,liability,,,liability! You're safety and wellbeing are important too. Taking the wheels apart isn't the difficult piece in all this. Reassembly is the more difficult task. I'm strong on the welding aspect of this and short on the maching side. 1). Taking the wheel apart can be done with abrasive wheels. There are plenty available designed for aluminum that don't load up and cut fast. 2) The safety factor of magnesium vs aluminum comes into play when you create dust and chips. Magnesium dust and chips create a fire hazard as already stated. It would be best to determine what you're working with before you start the process.  3). Moving past the machining portion of this and on to welding. If the wheels are magnesium they can be welded but are the new pieces aluminum or magnesium. You can't weld the two together. **Again, know what you're working with**. Based on the photos, the original welds were machine/automatic and the other (let's not call it a weld) was done by hand. 

Based on your questions, I'm guessing you wish to do this by the most inexpensive method. Google welding magnesium, and there are quite a few links and a couple that have simple tests to determine the material you are working with. This would be a good place to start. If the wheels are aluminum, what's the alloy? You can get into trouble welding the wheels with the wrong filler metal. I'm guessing the wheels are aluminum base on the restrictions and hazards aof working with magnesium but the geographic location of the OEM does make a difference. Most wheel manufacturers have filler metals designed to match the alloy of the wheel and the assembly is done using the GMAW "Mig" process,  but finding a match at your local welding supply house could be difficult. There are a few filler metal alloys suited for general purpose welding that will cover a range of alloys. 

I think the probability of finding a machine shop to turn the pieces after you take the wheel apart would be easier and less expensive than finding someone with a 5-axis waterjet and the tooling to mount your wheels. 

PS. Yes you can weld aluminum and magnesium together but the marriage will be annuled before the ink dries on the license.


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## Downunder Bob (Feb 27, 2017)

Nothing is impossible, that of course does not imply that the result will be good.

Cutting the old wheel up is really quite simple first remove the bulk of the original rim with a bandsaw, then using a lathe machine the inner web to the final size making sure it is running true to the hub that you have.

The real tricky part is the welding it back together, First, are the respective aluminium alloys of the two parts the same alloy? If they are not you will need the advice of an expert in welding aluminium, even if they are the same, you would still be advised to consult an expert, structural welding is not for the amateurs. And aluminium is less forgiving than steel. The wheels after welding will most likely need heat treating if they are ever to be used on the road. 

You would also do well to find out the relevant regulations in Japan for welding of wheels, and also home made wheels. Might be  a can of worms right there.

Can it be done? Yes.
Would I advise it? No.

If this isn't done right it could be very fatal.

I suspect the skills required are well outside your own, so be smart and pay an expert or two and get the job done right. Find something else to satisfy your" look what I made gene."


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## kd4gij (Feb 27, 2017)

Cutting it is the easy part. How do you plan on making the new rim with the bead?


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## skinny_jim (Feb 27, 2017)

Wreck" data-source="post: 463357"
	class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">
	
		
WreckWreck said:



			A Vertical Turrett Lathe would make short work of that such as those produced by Bullard. Since you are not planning on running parts longer then automotive wheels, (long shafting for example), they take up far less floor space then an engine lathe of appropriate size, also they are easier to load.
They have many uses in turning large diameter short parts so I suspect that there are Japanese companies that produced them as well. 
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/f4/73/f6/f473f6aca9cb07107881e538e6b8ff2e.jpg

Click to expand...


A VT Lathe is ideal for this job. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Groundhog (Feb 28, 2017)




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## Firestopper (Feb 28, 2017)

This is a bit out of the box, but I'm envisioning a custom made arbor to support a cold saw blade on a milling machine and using a larger rotary table to rotate the wheel.
Cold saw blades require slow RPM's (120 rpm and under) . As mentioned, a lathe would have to be rather large for this operation.  A flood coolant would also be needed. I don't think cutting the Aluminum with the correct blade would be a issue taking small bites. You might even be able to use a quality carbide tooth circular saw blade with this set up.
As for welding, a decent welding positioner and a quality spool gun would work (lots of practice).

Not calling you out on your abilities, but please understand the hazards others have mentioned when reworking wheels.
I'm with brino, in terms of trying new things and "going for it", just be safe. Not only does your life depend on a quality modification but others you share the road with.


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## allhorizon (Feb 28, 2017)

Thank you guys for all of your great responses. I appreciate the advice and ideas you've come up with and will take your advice into account when making my decisions on how to cut the wheels apart.

In my searches, in Japanese, I have come across a few people who do the work I want to get done and was able to visit with one of them and see how he does it. Unfortunately, he refuses to just cut apart wheels for me since the process of cutting, attaching new outer barrels, welding (some of which he outsources) is his business and he charges nearly 1000 USD per rim to do it.

http://ameblo.jp/vats4649/entry-12129570992.html

I have attached a picture of the lathe he is using.


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