# ScubaSteve's Van Norman #12 Restoration



## HMF (Jul 17, 2012)

Posted with permission from Steve


Hello all-

I'm creating this thread to chronicle my progress as I "refurbish" a Van Norman 12 milling machine. My plan at the outset is to scrape in the various sliding surfaces, but overall I just want a functioning machine tool with reasonable accuracy for a home shop. I acquired this mill a few days ago in less than stellar condition. It was given a terrible paint job of white (over a previous coat of safty blue) and the masking tape, etc. was still on the mill when i had it delivered. It looks to be in reasonable mechanical condition, as the spindle and gearbox seem to turn freely. I can't see any evidence of the mill being dropped, though there IS a portion of the leadscrew which has been brazed on; the far left of the x leadscrew has a threaded portion fitted on, I suspect it could have been done to accept a different handwheel since the PO had 3 original and one "different" handwheel on the machine. I also received a set of collets and an arbor, which are nice to have since these parts are hard to come by. 

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## HMF (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm getting pretty close to the "good paint job" phase, just because I know what an undertaking a complete dis-assembly and rebuild can be. Unfortunately with this machine, the paint job was bad enough that I think I'm gonna have to citrustrip the whole thing. There's not a stable coat of paint anywhere on the thing, so painting over everything is out of the question, plus the paint got in all the wrong places so I need to get it out. 

The irony of all this is that I'm moving in just over a week. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, but I'm thinking of breaking the machine down into large subassemblies and fixing them to pallets I find behind grocery stores, etc. I think this will kind of start the process of restoration without having too many loose parts during the move, and maybe make moving the thing safer/easier. Has anyone ever moved a VN12 without the ram,etc on top? Any tips on where to lift from?


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## HMF (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, got a few chunks bitten off. The motor and table are off. That table is pretty heavy; I'm stronger than most and it still would have been wise to have safely lowered the table with a hoist vs. the slow "drop" onto a pallet that I executed 

Can't get the ram off, but it seems to be because it is gummed up. I cranked it off as far as it would go and removed the stopper on the side...but I may need to tap it off with a deadblow hammer. The hoist is connected and will take over the job once free from the column.

I was going to take off the power feed and knee too, but we'll see. I may lay it on it's left side and call it a day...will probably make a skid out of the remaining scrap wood I have in the shop.

My biggest worry at this point is still getting that column up high enough to go in the truck. Budget truck rental assures me it's a 3 ft bed height, but I'll believe it when I see it. If the column is on its side and strapped to a solid skid, I *think* it should be low enough to give the crane enough "gumption" to raise everything at least 3 feet.

Oh, and BTW, I wasn't dazzled by flaking and scraping once the parts were removed, but we'll see once I clean the gunk off. Also, I managed to drop the gib for the table and crack it clean in half  It looks like I may be able to epoxy it back together and bolt back into place.....
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## HMF (Jul 17, 2012)

Steve,

I helped move a VN12, with ram in place (low mounted motor), using a small trailer and unloaded it using a 2-ton engine hoist and a pallet jack. We completely dismantled another using the same engine hoist and pallet jack. If your "shop hoist" is a typical engine hoist, the problem that you may run into is that the legs of the hoist are too close together at the ram end to straddle the base of the mill. The base is 22" wide and 29-1/4" deep and almost 3" thick. An engine hoist that was modified so that it could straddle the base would make the job of dismantling one pretty quick. With the right hoist or an overhead chain hoist you could pull the motor, ram, table and saddle in pretty short order. I wouldn't think it would be necessary to go farther than that. 

I see that you've already wrestled the table off. I hope you didn't damage the leadscrew. You must be a young fella to try to lift something like that by yourself and brute force...

Your problem with the ram may be that the gib is jamming it.

If you let me know what you have to work with and how far you want to strip it I can probably save you a lot of grief, having learned a thing or two the hard way.

As far a loading it goes, call a local towing company and see that they would charge to have a wrecker put it on the truck for you. $50 will usually get-er-done.

_Cal_


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## HMF (Jul 17, 2012)

Because the gib literally cracked right through the middle bolt hole, there are two other holes per "piece" that can be used to keep it in place....so you're probably right...epoxy etc may just make it worse.

CAL-

We moved this one off the trailer in one piece, so I got a feel for how top-heavy they can be. Since I'm moving, I'm gonna break it down into moveable pieces and put it on the moving truck. I kind of needed to do this anyway in order to clean/paint the mill.

No damage to the leadscrew, I laid the table down on its side 

I will definitely take a look at that gib....you're probably right about it binding the ram. This time I won't drop it
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## HMF (Jul 17, 2012)

Ok, so I managed to finally get the ram off. Like an idiot, I wasn't looking on the underside and didn't see the screws which held the gib....which was exactly what was holding things in place. I got the ram cozy on a skid of its own, and made a bigger pallet for the main column. Just gonna tip it on its side (with help) and lash it down. Here's some pics:







​I also did a bit more cleaning of the critical surfaces, just to see the wear. They don't look too great in my opinion. There's scoring, nicks, and zero scraping present...but I wonder if they came scraped in the first place. I'll let everyone else chime in, though.



















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## HMF (Jul 17, 2012)

I've heard of people just lightly running a very fine whetstone and oil over the surface....maybe I'll do that to knock down some of the burrs, then commence the rest of the cleanup. Scraping in general doesn't intimidate me, it's the dovetails that look like they could be a problem.


With it torn down like this you can make some basic assessments. Bear in mind I am not an expert. Take a good straight edge like a machinists square , and lay it across the bearing surfaces. Look for rocking, if you see a gap stick a feeler gauge in there and get some idea how much of a groove is worn. Also check to see how much lip there is between where the gib rides (original surface) and the wear areas.

I would not recommend a stone on the surfaces, , one, you don't want abrasives in the iron, and two, you don't know how flat the stone is.​


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## ScubaSteve (Feb 4, 2013)

Okay...so I finally made some progress on this machine. I finished up restoring a Sheldon lathe, so this has my attention as far as machines go. Here's some more pics, and a few questions for the group....


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## ScubaSteve (Feb 4, 2013)

I took the knee and gearbox off...so the column is pretty much bare. I proceeded to go at it with a needlegun, which worked quite well. Unfortunately, my little 2HP compressor was running constantly....even when I dialed it down. So, I applied some of the really hardcore methylene chloride gel stripper. I know I said I wouldn't use this stuff again due to its toxicity, but this time I have the machine right next to a garage door so I can just pop the hatch when doing the really messy work. I then took a carbide paint scraper and raked off layers of paint in no time. 

The problem is....FILLER. Van Norman used a lot of it...the machine is completely covered in 1/8" of the thick black junk!


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## ScubaSteve (Feb 4, 2013)

You can see in one of the pics the clear delineation between bare metal and the filler. I can chip it off pretty well with the needle scaler, but it takes a lot of time. I have previously encountered this stuff with a 1919 SB Lathe....that time I used a knotted wire wheel and it took everything off quickly....but it was incredibly messy and the powdered filler completely coated everything in my shop. If I do that again, I will use tarps to create an enclosure around the machine while I use the angle grinder/wheel. 

SHOULD I take this down to bare metal? Or can I take advantage of the filler that is already in place and just fill (a little more), prime, and paint? Will my use of stripper cause issues with the paint adhering later on?


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## franklynb (Feb 4, 2013)

Steve,


ScubaSteve said:


> SHOULD I take this down to bare metal? Or can I take advantage of the *filler* that is already in place and just fill (a little more), prime, and paint? Will my use of stripper cause issues with the paint adhering later on?



While I had my #12, 1952 vintage down to the same level of "strip"; I only found filler in the seam between the base
and column!

Here's the before picture: <https: picasaweb.google.com="" lh="" photo="" 0zxz1hfb7dck-stgv93gposc3tge6eogag5vhp7aegq?feat="directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0ZXZ1Hfb7DcK-Stgv93gPOsc3tGe6eOGAG5vHp7AEgQ?feat=directlink

Here's the after:</https:>
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/HX9h4OfO9y-t_JfY-8FNzOsc3tGe6eOGAG5vHp7AEgQ?feat=directlink
<https: picasaweb.google.com="" lh="" photo="" 0zxz1hfb7dck-stgv93gposc3tge6eogag5vhp7aegq?feat="directlink"><https: picasaweb.google.com="" lh="" photo="" hx9h4ofo9y-t_jfy-8fnzosc3tge6eogag5vhp7aegq?feat="directlink"> 
Since they perhaps came from the same pattern/sand mold/foundry, I suspect what you're seeing is a
reaction between the methchoride stripper and the original base coat of lead paint! Of course, YMMV; but
why would they "bondo" a brand new machine that had very few casting defects before paint?

I'd do a test with another M-C layer on a small spot and see if it re-dissolves it into a scrapeable layer of schmutz before
doing any "dry wheeling". And the dust is toxic, so cover up well if you decide to grind/needle/wheel it.

HTH.

--frankb
And I liked the color of the "raw" f-c coated cast iron  I just threw a couple of coats of wax on it, and it remains
that finish to this day. Sort of "gun blue".
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/xZ2eKmzzb49W0_h5jwBl6esc3tGe6eOGAG5vHp7AEgQ?feat=directlink

Edit: Going back through my journal, I had a reaction between the ferric chloride converter and something; perhaps the soap I used to clean:https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/R9z4s0ujyqdiWbK7Nqwht-sc3tGe6eOGAG5vHp7AEgQ?feat=directlink


</https:></https:>


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## ScubaSteve (Feb 4, 2013)

Frank-

Nice looking machine! It's funny the amount of changes there were in less than 10 years. I suspect mine is early 40's/WW2 era and it does not have the sump compartment. 

I would be inclined to think it were some sort of reaction, BUT I used the needlegun first. When I saw how the compressor was working, I decided to use chemical warfare. The filler was always present, this is not uncommon for machine tool makers to do since it helped mask imperfections in the casting. I know Bridgeport, SB, and several others did it....some of those that were producing during the war cut back on this extra step because they just wanted to get the iron out the door.

Lastly, I really like how you left the machine "natural". I posted this thread http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/10854-Naked-Machine-Tools?p=89961&viewfull=1#post89961 trying to find out what that was called. I like paint and all, but it strikes me as being temporary....and it may not match other colors in your shop. The sheen of clean cast iron is really nice....I think if you get enough oil absorbed in the pores it can be as protective as paint, lots cheaper, and lower maintenance.

Got any more pics of your machine reassembled?


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## HMF (Feb 16, 2013)

The first 12 I had I painted with Rustroleum smoke gray- several coats:





Before:




I used Citrustrip to get rid of the old paint (3 coats). I left all the filler, but did not add any more.


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## ScubaSteve (Apr 3, 2013)

A little more progress....I went after it with a needle scaler. I did use some of the hardcore paint stripper in gel form. It works really well to remove paint, but because of the filler I still had to needle scale it. I found that going straight to the needle scaler was quickest. Lastly, I rubbed it down with motor oil. I was debating on what color to paint this, but I actually kind of like the natural finish. No paint that will fade, chip, crack, or yellow. A routine wipe down with oil is all that is needed and the machine looks quite handsome.






I'll be moving soon, so this will be a good time to do it...no paint to mess up during transport and I won't have to get the garage at the new place dirty with filler dust and grime. I'll need to do the same to the ram, knee, etc. but the biggest part is done. From there I'll need to get into the guts of the saddle for a good cleaning, and then finally reassemble.


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## Todd (Apr 3, 2013)

in youre first post of pictures, the picture that is a shot inside a bucket of various hardware there is a flow regulator with two copper tubes coming out of it.  has a quick connect for compressed air but do you know what is was used for by the PO?


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## ScubaSteve (Apr 3, 2013)

Todd said:


> in youre first post of pictures, the picture that is a shot inside a bucket of various hardware there is a flow regulator with two copper tubes coming out of it.  has a quick connect for compressed air but do you know what is was used for by the PO?



I have no clue what it was used for, but it was most likely for coolant or air to blow away chips. Could potentially have been a coolant misting system...not sure. For my limited uses, I will probably just squirt coolant by hand.


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## Todd (Apr 4, 2013)

makes sense, dunno why i was thinking something to force lube into the saddle ways and table ways.  they are a pain with how they are situated


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## Splat (Apr 10, 2013)

What a beast!  Good luck with the resto. Looking good so far.  Quick question: does Citrustrip remove the filler?


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## ScubaSteve (Apr 10, 2013)

I haven't tried the citrustrip on this project, but considering that maximum strength Kleen-Strip methylene chloride didn't do much......

I have tried many different methods and actually like electrolysis the best, but for the heavy stuff you gotta strip them in place. I have used oven cleaner, citrustrip, and various strippers. I DO like the citrustrip....it says that it's safer, but I think you can get a lot more done with the Kleen-Strip gel as long as you have EXCELLENT ventilation and proper PPE...meaning glasses, mask, and long gloves. Not only is it cheaper, but it is a lot more aggressive. You will immediately know if you have it on your skin...it is just as painful as hot grease from a fryer. 

That being said, on this project I found that I had to use the needle scaler anyway....so I went without chemicals. Still, I used a lead-rated N-95 mask and was careful about ventilation and a scrupulous cleanup.


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## ScubaSteve (May 4, 2013)

Here's some more....I used kerosene to clean the castings of the motor oil I had used....I just didn't like the greasiness of it, plus it was collecting a lot of dust. I multitask in my shop, and do woodworking from time to time, so I didn't want a dust magnet. Incidentally, I "discovered" a good way to clean the leadscrew...get a good brand of pipecleaner and tie it arouund the threads....then just "unscrew the dirt". I also used a product similar to evaporust on the collets. Seemed to be the exact same stuff.

After a lot of research and sitting on the fence, I applied a mixture of 70 percent Boiled linseed oil/ 30 percent Turpentine. I let the castings warm up in the sun, and wiped them down with a thin coat so I wouldn't get the tackiness that most people complain about with BLO. It is still curing a bit, but there is a slight "rubbery" skin over each part that should keep things rust free and less oily to the touch. I can still paint the machine if I so choose.


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## ScubaSteve (Jan 30, 2014)

LONG STORY:

Well, I got everything moved and put back together in my new shop. Been using the VN12 for various small projects like drilling and squaring up parts. I noted the motor didn't work great, but it worked adequately, so I didn't think much about it...it didn't heat up or smoke, etc. 

Fast forward to a few weeks ago; I sold a SB 9" lathe and got a much nicer 13"....I hooked everything up, assuming it was set up for 3ph 220v...after having power problems and smoke, I finally realized it was wired for 440v. Once I rewired it, it worked fine. 

Since I was fiddling with everything else on 3 phase, I began to think My RPC was running awful loud and I got busy trying to balance it. I got her balanced out nicely and the motor runs smooth and quiet. 

This week I needed to use the VN12 but found it would no longer run! After digging around, I found that IT TOO had been wired for 440v and I had been running it on 220v all along.

The problem is that I can confirm the RPC is working well because the lathe works perfectly. The motor on the VN 12 hums but doesn't turn....I have properly wired it for low voltage, etc. Not sure what to do? I really think I should keep the motor since it is aesthetically part of the machine. Probably can't afford a professional rewind (I hear quotes of $500+)...I looked at how to DIY a rewind, but materials alone are close to $200. 

Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## Cal Haines (Jan 30, 2014)

Did you change the motor wiring for 240?

Do you have a volt/ohm meter and do you know how to use one?

_Cal_


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## ScubaSteve (Jan 31, 2014)

Cal Haines said:


> Did you change the motor wiring for 240?
> 
> Do you have a volt/ohm meter and do you know how to use one?
> 
> _Cal_



Yep...I know how to use one in general circuits....but had to look up diagnostic procedures for testing windings. FWIW, I pulled the motor and found that it was very difficult to turn...could be mixture of electrical/mechanical problems. It was freezing in my shop and the grease was so firm I think it was gumming up the armature.

Here's some before pics of the motor....it was obviously overgreased at one point and that grease was all over EVERYTHING. Notice in pic #2...the "fingers" on the rotor are so grimy I thought they were cast iron! They are actually copper...lol.


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## ScubaSteve (Jan 31, 2014)

Here's some "after" pics...even though it's still a work in progress....I used electrical parts cleaner spray and a soft toothbrush to clean up the windings/rotor/stator. They were NASTY. The armature has copper "fingers" which I assume are for heat dissipation, etc...and I literally had to chisel off the grime!

I also flushed the bearings...they too were full of grease, which appeared to be fresh (I previously greased the bearings) but it was cold and gummy. I used an NLGI 2 with polyurea base...Lucas Xtra Heavy duty...seems to be good stuff...not sure if I just needed to warm the bearings up or what.The bearings appear to turn smoothly when clean with no grinding, etc....they are a 1306C ball bearing...actually somewhat expensive to replace so I am glad they are okay. I noticed the rotor was difficult to turn at one point, then it would free up, then bind again. Maybe the bearings were misaligned or the shaft is bent?

When I get some time, I will sit down and check w/ an ohmmeter, etc. and reassemble. I may have wasted several hours cleaning if the windings fail tests, but I learned a lot


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## John Hasler (Jan 31, 2014)

ScubaSteve said:


> Yep...I know how to use one in general circuits....but had to look up diagnostic procedures for testing windings. FWIW, I pulled the motor and found that it was very difficult to turn...could be mixture of electrical/mechanical problems. It was freezing in my shop and the grease was so firm I think it was gumming up the armature.
> 
> Here's some before pics of the motor....it was obviously overgreased at one point and that grease was all over EVERYTHING.



Don't try too hard to get all of the grease out of the windings.  It isn't really hurting much there (interferes with cooling a bit) and aggressive cleaning could damage the insulation.


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## John Hasler (Jan 31, 2014)

ScubaSteve said:


> Here's some "after" pics...even though it's still a work in progress....I used electrical parts cleaner spray and a soft toothbrush to clean up the windings/rotor/stator. They were NASTY. The armature has copper "fingers" which I assume are for heat dissipation, etc...and I literally had to chisel off the grime!
> 
> I also flushed the bearings...they too were full of grease, which appeared to be fresh (I previously greased the bearings) but it was cold and gummy. I used an NLGI 2 with polyurea base...Lucas Xtra Heavy duty...seems to be good stuff...not sure if I just needed to warm the bearings up or what.The bearings appear to turn smoothly when clean with no grinding, etc....they are a 1306C ball bearing...actually somewhat expensive to replace so I am glad they are okay. I noticed the rotor was difficult to turn at one point, then it would free up, then bind again. Maybe the bearings were misaligned or the shaft is bent?
> 
> When I get some time, I will sit down and check w/ an ohmmeter, etc. and reassemble. I may have wasted several hours cleaning if the windings fail tests, but I learned a lot



The fins are for cooling.  I think that the binding was probably due to gunk jamming between the rotor and stator.  If the bearings are good I bet it will run fine.


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## Cal Haines (Jan 31, 2014)

ScubaSteve said:


> ...
> 
> I also flushed the bearings...they too were full of grease ...
> 
> ...


There should be a plug on the bearing cap, opposite the grease fitting, to let excess grease out.  Lots of "mechanics" out there who don't know what they're doing and don't take the plugs out, causing excess grease to get pushed into the motor.

It's hard to tell much just by feeling a bearing, but if it feels OK and wasn't making noise when running, it may be OK.  There may be other bearings that will work.  What are the dimensions of the bearings (ID, OD and width)?  

_Cal_


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## ScubaSteve (Jan 31, 2014)

I followed the instructions here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6IjX6nP_H8

And everything seems to check out....the wires are pretty beat though (looks like they were cut into/chafed by the hole in the peckerhead), and the cloth insulation is pretty deteriorated. 

I'm inclined to cut them back to a few inches before the winding and replace with fresh wire, but that could be asking for trouble. At any rate, it *appears* that the winding has survived all these years of abuse. 

I will try to get to reassembly and re-lubrication this weekend.


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## John Hasler (Jan 31, 2014)

ScubaSteve said:


> I followed the instructions here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6IjX6nP_H8
> 
> And everything seems to check out....the wires are pretty beat though (looks like they were cut into/chafed by the hole in the peckerhead), and the cloth insulation is pretty deteriorated.
> 
> I'm inclined to cut them back to a few inches before the winding and replace with fresh wire, but that could be asking for trouble. At any rate, it *appears* that the winding has survived all these years of abuse.



I suggest that rather than cutting the wires back you slip new insulation over what's there.  Heat shrink tubing should do fine.


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## ScubaSteve (Feb 1, 2014)

Funny you should mention that...I actually already did that! However, I was just not sure of the condition of the underlying wires and whether connectivity would be positional because of broken wires. I guess I'll just wrap them up a bit and revisit that problem if something comes up.


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## ScubaSteve (Feb 1, 2014)

Damn. Still doesn't work. :whiteflag:  

I guess Ill keep the bearings, shaft, and copper fins for other projects. The rest is going to the scrap man.

A new (to me) 3 HP Leeson motor should arrive late next week. 

At least my 5 year old son learned how to say "armature"...lol.


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## Cal Haines (Feb 1, 2014)

If you tried to rewire it from 440 to 220 and got leads 6 and 9 mixed up, it would do what you described earlier, i.e., just sit and hum.

_Cal_


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## ScubaSteve (Feb 1, 2014)

I  agree, but these are clearly labelled like 6 and 9 ....believe me, I am the type to troubleshoot this into the ground, but judging from the crumbly condition of the insulation on these leads, I really am better served by getting a new motor. I am thinking about how to keep the nice cast iron housing for something useful...might make a nice tap tower for beer, etc.


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## John Hasler (Feb 1, 2014)

ScubaSteve said:


> I  agree, but these are clearly labelled like 6 and 9 ....believe me, I am the type to troubleshoot this into the ground, but judging from the crumbly condition of the insulation on these leads, I really am better served by getting a new motor. I am thinking about how to keep the nice cast iron housing for something useful...might make a nice tap tower for beer, etc.



At least you should get a good price for all that copper.


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## ScubaSteve (Feb 26, 2014)

You would think...however it was encased in epoxy and it wasn't worth the $20-$30 to spend my afternoon hacking away at it and making sure it was clean enough to be accepted for scrap. I did keep the housings, and I'm really wishing I kept the shaft, since I just got a hydraulic press and could have pressed it out...keeping it for lathe projects, etc. Looking back, I think there were enough possible points of failure in the motor that it was better to replace it.

On another note, I have just mounted the 3 HP Leeson and she turns like "butta". Currently fiddling around with getting the properly sized belts (finally went with link-belt since I can re-use it on other machines). Gotta get that last 12" and I'll have the double pulley strung with 2 separate belts....then we're back in business....lots of other projects waiting for the mill!


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## ScubaSteve (Mar 2, 2014)

Hey guys...simple question that I *kind of* know the answer to:

The VN12 had a 1.5HP 1140 RPM motor as stock. I now have a 3 HP 1750 RPM motor mounted. It is noticeably faster, and I worry about the geartrain. Should I be worried? Normally I would get a VFD to slow it down, but because it is 3HP the VFD would be super expensive.


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