# Jet 13X40 Headstock alignment nightmare with Walter Meier.



## jmh8743 (Oct 18, 2012)

One more time.  OK, the search function does not perform from this location, so here is my problem.

My  (new) JET 13X40 headstock is not in alignment with the  cross slide ways; however, a 24" dumbell tests satisfactorily.

According to the "factory" tests, my lathe has half the allowed error, which is great. After nealy 2 yrs of frustration with Walter Meier and their untrained staff any further communication is a waste of effort with the lower echelon. Firstly, I was hoping to be able to find a contact person before the 2 yrs warranty expires Nov 1. If anyone knows someone that might know someone, I would apreciate the comment.

I will not go into the sordid story here; however, this "stalling" must be a company policy, similar to an insurance company. All I want is what I paid for, but allas.

This not being possible, my second goal is to find someone that has actually performed this task....... I presume someone can read this. Having problems with uploads.

If not:

http://winchester52.blogspot.com/2012/10/my-13x40-jet-lathe-nightmare.html

Thanks for looking.

Mike


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## Tony Wells (Oct 18, 2012)

Good morning, Mike, and welcome to the forum, first of all.

You need the next page of the procedure to do the headstock alignment. It will tell you to loosen the bolts holding the headstock to the bead, and using the screws in the pusher block near the outboard end, swivel the entire headstock until your sweep of the test bar is accurate. With that type of headstock mount, it is not uncommon for a lathe to be bumped out of alignment either in shipping, or because of a crash. 

With the indicator on the bar close to the chuck, start the movement in the appropriate direction, and just like indicating a vise on a mill, as you move away from the chuck(if mounted) continue to push the headstock into alignment. It may, and probably will, take a few iterations of this action to bring the headstock true, so repeat as necessary. Then moving between the bolts, tighten the bed retention bolts down evenly, a bit on each bolt before moving to the next one. Re-check when tight.


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## swatson144 (Oct 18, 2012)

Welcome to the forum Mike.

My little jet 9x20's headstock was pointing more towards the apron than the tailstock when I got it. Everybody was going on about the dumbbell test. That is a very good test to find out if pretty much anything is wrong with the lathe. My problem was that I knew the headstock was off but I didn't know if the tailstock was off or what other issues it might have. Frank is right they can get tweaked during handling. That little lathe was in a truck and once it got loose it seemed to have traveled much farther than the truck did.

The easiest way I found to get the headstock pointing down the ways was to chuck up a large free turning chunk of material (I used AL). As large as you have at hand. 

Simply face it off. 
Place a dial indicator on your crossfeed and sweep it across the face. Naturally it will read zero all the way to center. Keep sweeping as you go past center the dial will start showing you 2x the error. So if you sweep to a point where it reads .010 and move the head until it reads .005 then it might be straight. 
Retest.

After getting that straight you can rule it out in the dumbell test, and look for other problems if it don't turn right.

Steve


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## AR1911 (Oct 18, 2012)

I am having trouble getting my head around this method.
If I face off a 3" round, why would it indicate true on the front radius and diverge on the rear radius?


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## swatson144 (Oct 18, 2012)

AR1911 said:


> I am having trouble getting my head around this method.
> If I face off a 3" round, why would it indicate true on the front radius and diverge on the rear radius?



Easiest way for me to describe I guess is... If you set the compound @ 90° to the spindle it becomes another cross feed. If it is set a few ° off then it would be much like having a headstock that is not perpendicular to the crossfeed. There is an angle there. That angle will make a cone pointing in or out.  If you have an indicator mounted on the compound it would read 0 until center and then be moving off 0 

So as a gross example if the head was 30° out it'd be noticeable and exactly like facing with the compound that is set on 30° while using the cross feed. Later edit I mean except while using the crossfeed, errr that is with the headstosk tweaked out of square all facing cuts made with the crossfeed would be the same as if one were using the compound with a slight angle on it for facing.

Steve


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## AR1911 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ah - of course.   thanks


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## jmh8743 (Oct 18, 2012)

Tony Wells said:


> Good morning, Mike, and welcome to the forum, first of all.
> 
> You need the next page of the procedure to do the headstock alignment. It will tell you to loosen the bolts holding the headstock to the bead, and using the screws in the pusher block near the outboard end, swivel the entire headstock until your sweep of the test bar is accurate. With that type of headstock mount, it is not uncommon for a lathe to be bumped out of alignment either in shipping, or because of a crash.
> 
> With the indicator on the bar close to the chuck, start the movement in the appropriate direction, and just like indicating a vise on a mill, as you move away from the chuck(if mounted) continue to push the headstock into alignment. It may, and probably will, take a few iterations of this action to bring the headstock true, so repeat as necessary. Then moving between the bolts, tighten the bed retention bolts down evenly, a bit on each bolt before moving to the next one. Re-check when tight.



Thanks for the welcome. I've been watchin' for 4 or 5 years.  _OK I thought that would be the case.  Well, there's a lot of "stuff" in the way_. The neat perspectives dont show that and I am hesitant to start disassembly blind. I'm perplexed as to HOW all those gears are removed AND I presume that in is left and out is right....errrr. maybe I need get some light and a couple of photos. All these words will get me in a "oh ***t how'd that happen?". So my next will be photo of the gremlin. Also I presume the pin is at the centerline of the ways so that nothing else will be affected. And thanks for all comments.

_Nothing is so firmly believed as that which is least understood. _


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## jmh8743 (Oct 18, 2012)

swatson144 said:


> Welcome to the forum Mike.
> 
> My little jet 9x20's headstock was pointing more towards the apron than the tailstock when I got it. Everybody was going on about the dumbbell test. That is a very good test to find out if pretty much anything is wrong with the lathe. My problem was that I knew the headstock was off but I didn't know if the tailstock was off or what other issues it might have. Frank is right they can get tweaked during handling. That little lathe was in a truck and once it got loose it seemed to have traveled much farther than the truck did.
> 
> ...



Steve: thats how I discovered it. Drilled and turned a piece of 2" stock, then faced it. Sat it on the mill to be cross drilled and gandered, placed a try square adjacent and saw light. I guess it is about 30" of arc maybe 45". Not close to specs. And thanks for the welcome.

Oh and the 24" dumbell test shows the "centers" are centered. Furthermore, I destroyed a 3 jaw chuck with one bar end chucked and the other a live center @ T/S. Center gave up also. Then I complained to WM. They sent me a new 3 jaw chuck. Hee Hee. They didnt have a clue, I dont guess. Maybe they did.

Mike


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## swatson144 (Oct 18, 2012)

jmh8743 said:


> Steve: thats how I discovered it. Drilled and turned a piece of 2" stock, then faced it. Sat it on the mill to be cross drilled and gandered, placed a try square adjacent and saw light. I guess it is about 30" of arc maybe 45". Not close to specs. And thanks for the welcome.
> 
> Oh and the 24" dumbell test shows the "centers" are centered. Furthermore, I destroyed a 3 jaw chuck with one bar end chucked and the other a live center @ T/S. Center gave up also. Then I complained to WM. They sent me a new 3 jaw chuck. Hee Hee. They didnt have a clue, I dont guess. Maybe they did.
> 
> Mike



Great, so you have it all square rooted? 
Fixing your own machinery is a very rewarding pursuit. You are indeed lucky, well not so far as the trouble, but many people who actually got the attention of a "decision maker" would be spending their time on figuring out how to crate the machine, and lowest cost to ship it back. Only to wait until some "tech" decided it was good enough, and send it back unaltered. If you are lucky and bought from a reputable dealer they'd send you someone else's problem that the tech didn't agree with. With extreme luck you'd get someone who didn't feel like winning by "wearing down" was appropriate and hadn't been "promoted to manager" . 

You'll do fine. adjust it and move on I think.

Steve


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## Tony Wells (Oct 18, 2012)

jmh8743 said:


> Thanks for the welcome. I've been watchin' for 4 or 5 years.  _OK I thought that would be the case.  Well, there's a lot of "stuff" in the way_. The neat perspectives dont show that and I am hesitant to start disassembly blind. I'm perplexed as to HOW all those gears are removed AND I presume that in is left and out is right....errrr. maybe I need get some light and a couple of photos. All these words will get me in a "oh ***t how'd that happen?". So my next will be photo of the gremlin. Also I presume the pin is at the centerline of the ways so that nothing else will be affected. And thanks for all comments.
> 
> _Nothing is so firmly believed as that which is least understood. _



This should not require any serious disassembly to access the hold-down bolts or the adjustment screws. I'm not going to tell you they are easy to get to, but don't worry too much about the gears and bearings. If you have doubts about what does need to be removed to access the required points, take several photos along the way.


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## 12bolts (Oct 19, 2012)

never to old to learn.............



swatson144 said:


> That angle will make a cone pointing in or out



Steve, I have never heard of,... considered,........... or even thought of, the theory of alignment behind that, but that is just so simple it stuns me,..
I am still learning now. Just going over center.............Nelson, where is the big "self head slap along with a kick up the butt" smiley?

Cheers Phil


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## jmh8743 (Oct 24, 2012)

TW,

OK I'm convinced. I looked more carefully. (No pics.) The left door frame must be removed since it is bolted to the HS and the base, read heavy. But until I get into the "fire" I will not be able to see how the adjustments are made. So I am off to war. One thing I can do is remove a bolt, most times.

And, on another matter: the motor failed. Will not start above 430 rpm. I turned in a WR 15 da before expiration. So I am still making noise. :winner:think it is a starter capacitor.


Also I added some photos-analysis to http://winchester52.blogspot.com/2012/10/my-13x40-jet-lathe-nightmare.html  that may explain how this all got too far. I think just proceeding is wise. See 6 mos ago, I could not even perceive starting the repair.

Mike
Cullman AL
Remlap AL (Jet 13X40)


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## jmh8743 (Dec 5, 2012)

*Re: Jet 13X40 Headstock alignment nightmare with Walter Meier Version 2*

An update for those interested:

On 11-14-2012 WM sent a subcontractor to evaluate the headstock condition and to repair the motor capacitors.  They did so and addressed the headstock alignment issue. Here is their solution:
1) Use 4 jaw chuck
2) add aluminum shims (1/8") to jaw contact points on bar.
3) install 2 test guages after bar centered.
4) use chuck wrench extention to tighten the chuck jaws until alignment is acheived.
5) Me being a novice have never heard of this method.


Let me know if anyone has used this procedure. I have serious doubts and my $1000 chuck will not be treated that way.
The misalignment is 0.003 in 8". Also, if reading this and you have performed the alignment for this lathe, I could really use the help. Further the tech says this amount cannot be corrected for this lathe.

The concensus seems to be: just do it. 

Thanks
Mike
Remlap, AL​


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## swatson144 (Dec 5, 2012)

Mike the tech is telling you how to center a work piece with the "crush method" where you simply mash the work into a soft material vice loosening the opposite jaw. It has no bearing on spindle alignment.

I am still not at all certain that head alignment is the cause of your .003:8" taper. There are many other things that could cause it. Tailstock not centered left right or height, material springing, dull cutter, just to name a few.

Please re-read post 5 and give it a try. If you come up a few thou out with that method then it is the "head stock alignment".

Steve


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## jmh8743 (Dec 7, 2012)

Steve,
Thanks for taking your time. I am certain of the HS misalignment. I purchased a quality test bar ground to 2 tenths with a MT 5 on one end.

see http://winchester52.blogspot.com/2012/10/my-13x40-jet-lathe-nightmare.html at the end. Just look at photos and you'll see the bar.

Then after your comment, I faced a 1.5" bar X3". Set it on mill table with a try square. about 1 degree.

The techs comments were that the machine is not capable of better than 003/8". The specs say 0005/5. THE MACHINE IS 2 YRS OLD.

I'm wondering if I am beating a dead horse. I do not have the experience to know. Can I get this machine better?

tnx
Mike


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## jmh8743 (Dec 17, 2012)

Hey Steve,

pursuant to your suggestion I faced a 3" dia tube




of course the lens did affect a pure "plane" image AND I'm not sure at this resolution IF you can see due to the resolution. Is this what you meant? Looks like I wasnt very steady. Hee Hee

)Mike


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## swatson144 (Dec 17, 2012)

jmh8743 said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> pursuant to your suggestion I faced a 3" dia tube
> 
> ...



Not exactly. You take a piece of free machining stock that you can get a good finish on. Simply face it and fix a dial indicator to the cross slide. As below



as you sweep the dial indicator across the near side to center it will read 0 even if it is notably tapered because you are sweepin the same relative angle as the tool cut BUT when you sweep beyond center you will see an increase/decrease if the head is not perpendicular to the cross slide.

Steve


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## jmh8743 (Dec 17, 2012)

got a big piece of AL...on the case steve. will let U know. I know this machine will do the boring I need. ) am not throwing in the towel. tnx


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## jmh8743 (Dec 28, 2012)

*Response to #17*

Steve, first thanks for your time:




I repeated meas about 5 times. varied from 3 to 5 tenths.
total dia 2.50". good thought. so it is shaped like a dish.
so, that is twice the error in 1.25"?

Mike


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## Richard King (Dec 28, 2012)

I wish I had seen this sooner as I could have helped with alignment issues on any lathe in the future, please ask me as I have been aligning lathe beds for my entire life (62 years).  My Dad invented the King-Way Alignment Instrument that was sold buy Do-All and Sheer Tumico and by us.  I started to apprentice under my Dad when I was 12 and I have taught alignment and scraping at several new machine builders over the past 28 years.  I have been teaching machine rebuilding / building /way scraping for over 35 years at hundreds of companies all round the world.

One thing I must have missed while reading in this posts...  Did you level and align the bed first?  The test that was on the Winchester link for aligning the tail stock is not correct.  The long bar sags and when you flip the indicator over it drop too.  Has anyone ever discussed the 2 collar test for turning a straight bar in the head-stock?  The cross-slide face test is the way I do it also.  I also check the cross side so it is square to the bed-ways. 

I hope you can turn a shaft without taper and the cross feed test and get 2 good readings.  The head-stock needs to point toward the operator .0002"to .0004/12" to compensate for push-a-way or tool pressure and this also faces concave.  I have the George Sleshinger book the "Testing Machine Tools" and can send you some scanned pages on lathe alignment.  That book along with the book called "Machine Tool Reconditioning"
have been the basis for many of the modern test sheet published today.  

I will try to write up a procedure and post it in  Machine Rebuilding and Scraping forum  and try to post it with pictures in January.   If you are  having issues now Please call me 651 338 8141 (8AM to 8PM CST) or write me at Richard@Handscraping.com  or PM me.


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## Richard King (Dec 29, 2012)

I have been thinking all night about a simple method you can do to check head-stock (HS) alignment without but an expensive test bar to put in the spindle nose taper.  Chuck up a 1 1/2 to 2 1/2"  Bar of alum, leaded cold roll or the best some thick wall tubing.  A random length with with about 8" sticking out.  First face it, don't worry yet about the face alignment.  

Then take a clean up cut of the OD, stop about 1" from chuck,  You will want the turned area to be about 6 1/2 to 7" long.   The mark n the part 2 areas that we call collars or flange 1/4 to 3/8" wide on the extreme right end then measure 6" toward the chuck and mark another collar or flange 1/4 to 3/8 long, Then go to the right side and turn on the machine, turn clearance say .030" deep between the collars and in the space nearest the chuck to the left of the left collar.  __TT________TT
 I hope my crude drawing makes sense.  That's the top half
of the shaft...Next go to the collars and take .002" cut, on right side.  

Lock your cross-slide, after you clean up the right side disengage the feed lever DO NOT TOUCH THE CROSS-FEED or Compound. Let them stay at that position.  then hand crank the saddle down to the left and engage the feed to clean up the collar next to the chuck. When the tool clears the edge of the 2nd collar stop the feed and turn off the spindle.  Then slowly crank the saddle to the right, dragiing the tool across the collars. 

Take a 2nd dry cut..this will eliminate the push away factor.  At the end of 2nd cut slowly crank it to the right again to the right and mic the collars.  If the head-stock (HS) and bead are aligned it will be the same or slightly bigger .0001" in 6" on tail-stock end.    
If it's out, You bed has a twist or the HS is mis-aligned.  If it is  DON'T Start aligning your head.  Let me know and I'll tell you what to do next. I am getting writers cramp...


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## jmh8743 (Dec 29, 2012)

Richard,
First of all thanks for taking your time. That is all any of us have. I am an engineer-surveyor and haved been practicing for 45 yrs., so I have a good idea of measurements but this single issue has thousands of solutions; however, the procedure must have specific milestones. In surveying, which I taught UAB in the 80s, we have methods to assure we are starting with a blank sheet of paper.

I was supplied a very thorough (15) alignments record that were performed at the factory. My lathe was generally half of the factory allowable(s) for each test. So I know it will do as I need, getting it back there is the general issue. you can say I have had zero help from the distributor. One tech said themachine would not perform to those established standards. But we go on, as Tony Wells suggested. 

I have on hand:
a) ground 1.5" bar, MT#5 one end, plain the other, 16" long
b) "dumbell bar", ground on both ends. Commercially produced through BROWNELLS
c) dial gages (0.001 and 0.0001) and a test indicator (0.0005)
d) desire

lastly, this lathe headstock is pinned as previously noted.

1) Did you level and align the bed first? _Yes and very precisely. The bearings are held down after leveling.

_2) Has anyone ever discussed the 2 collar test for turning a straight bar in the head-stock? _Yes. The machine fails this test. I can do this again if needed. I may have my records. Essentially it measures 0.003" difference HS to end of bar.
_
3) I also check the cross side so it is square to the bed-ways. _Not been done_.

4) I hope you can turn a shaft without taper and the cross feed test and get 2 good readings. _Did you suggest I perfrom this?

_
OK, the above is in reponse to yout FIRST POST. I am digesting your last post.

Thanks for your time, I have not phone service here at the shop (it is remote) but excellent internet.

Mike
Remlap, Al (thats palmer spelled backwards per a duel in 1880s)

PS dumbell bar tested 0.001" diff HS to TS center.


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## jmh8743 (Dec 29, 2012)

Second post:
_Then go to the right side and turn on the machine, turn clearance say .030" deep between the collars and in the space nearest the chuck to the left of the left collar. __TT________TT
I hope my crude drawing makes sense. That's the top half
of the shaft...Next go to the collars and take .002" cut, on right side. 

_OK, I got it to here. Will post photos when done. Then I'll STOP, leaving everything in place and make sure I have the second phase comprehended.

Onward and upward.

Mike

PS also Available is a K&E alignment scope (now Brunson)


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## Richard King (Dec 29, 2012)

I was looking at the Jet website....is the machine a bench model or does it have a cabinet?   If it's on a bench, what kind of bench?   Is it bolted to the bench....?


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## Richard King (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi again,


I am writing this so those who have the same issue down the line can check their machine if they do not have all the nice test bars.

When you mic the 2 collars and they are good and you can do the face test and it's good, your all set.   But if they are off what is wrong?   The bed has a twist or the head is out of alignment.  If you have a precision level like a 199 Starrett that the bubble is .0005"/12 graduations.  Or even a 99 with a .005" / 12".  Set the level on top of the cross-slide or saddle so it is 90 deg to the bed ways, mark the place your sitting with a magic marker.  If you can level the machine or slide a feeler gage under one end of the level so it reads level.   Have the saddle cranked up next to the head-stock, (HS) remove the test bar we just cut, or if you didn't level / align the bed first, level it before you do the 2 collar test bar.  Adjust the machine or level so  the bubble rest on the center and on a line.  If your using the .005" per foot get a magnifying glass and a super sharp pencil.  Mark the level where the bubble rests.

Now crank the saddle back toward the tail-stock (TS)  about an inch and then move it back to where it was sitting stop the cranking always moving the same direction.  Re check the level.  It might take a few tries. Then crank it down the bed as close to the end as you can, if you can slide off the tail-stock,.  then crank it the direction you cranked it at the other end and let the bubble come to rest.  Usually it takes 10 seconds.  If it is off adjust the leveling feet.  I read you said it is spot on with the leveling, but if it isn't level the bed or use a level to "align the bed"   Leveling a machine on a Aircraft carrier is tough don't you think...so aligning the bed-way parallel to each other  is the key.  If your bolted to a bench you will have some issues with stability I bet, but do the best you can and shim between the bed and the bottom of the bed legs.  If it sets on a cabinet, be sure to check all the bolts holding the cabinet to the bed are tight.  I also like to see the bed sitting on leveling plates under the leveling bolts.   

I am sorry, I can't take the time all at once to write it all.  I do have a life outside the board. Once you have the bed level aligned as close as you can get it or as close as your new machine spec's say. Put the 2 collar bar back in the chuck and do the above tests again.   The standard spec is .0002" per foot, so your bed can be out .0006" from end to end and be within spec. More later.

Back again.

I know you have these test bars and I looked for a dumbbell online and could not find anything online to even know what it looks like.

Now that you know the bed is straight / level / aligned...You take the test cuts on the OD of the Collar.  What is you reading?  If it's a under .002"  (.001" per side from center axis line).   I would twist bed out of alignment so the 2 collar test cut straight.  If the collar is big on the right side or TS end the mount a dial indicator where your tool is on the center of bar, and put .010 pressure on the indictor, then tighten the front side TS end leveling screw  so the indicator moves .002".  I know what your thinking it would be 1/2 that, but it won't be.  Take .002 and take another cut.  It should be good or you can tweak it again. 

 When done tighten the lock nuts with 2 wrenches on the screws and take one more cut.  If it is more then .002 then the head is probably out of alignment with the bed.  I used to be a repair station for Jet years ago.  For the most part the machines were not the best, but people got there monies worth.  Usually someone can follow the directions when they buy a machine and all will be OK, but factories do screw up now and then too.

If you double checked to be sure the cabinet is tight to the bed and its leveling screws are snug.  I see the on the Jet Web-Site the head cabinet has 4 leveling pads.  On a small machine it's difficult to get them to twist the bed unless they are bolted to the floor.  But if the machine was build correctly you only put an equal amount of weight on those 4 screws and leave them alone.

more..

I prefer to do the 2 collar test in the field over indicating a ground bar out in the field.  When I am builiding a machine from scratch or rebuilding a machine I use a ground test bar fitted in the spindle taper.  In the field I like to make a test bar as if I was machining a part.  If the bed is aligned with a level by using the precision level tests and as you move the saddle and the level does not move off the line and the 2 collar test is bad then the head stock is not aligned with the bed.


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## Richard King (Dec 29, 2012)

I added some more info to the prior  post but figured I should add this one as a new one.
-------------

Sorry for the delay here, but my uncle is in the hospital.  So have to check on him from time to time and keep up with the honey-do chores. 

For those of you who do not have a precision test bar you can keep taking test cuts on the  2 collars bar and move the head a little at a time, or you can make a your own true test bar.  You have the 2 collar bar now and it's close.  Turn down test bar so both collars are the same size.  If one is .004" bigger then the other end the turn it down .004 so when you mic the bar both ends are the same.  

Then mount a mag base and dial indicator on the compound and loosen the head and move it until the test bar indicates true with the travel of the saddle on the newly aligned bed.  When indicating the 2 collars leave the TS end a little plus by +.0001 to .0002" towards the operator.  Now tighten the head down and again take a test cut and it should be close. Once you have the bed aligned and the aligned to the bed then I would face the part.  If all is OK it will face concave .0002" in 12" is the spec.  I would face a 6"  piece or the bigger the better so you get a easy math calculations. If it is good  ream the dowels bigger and put in new ones.

If the face cut is off then the machine was a lemon and the saddle is out of square with the bed.  In all my years I have only seen one machine returned because it was a lemon.   I wish you could call me so I believe I could explain it better on the phone then typing.  Tell Jet to give me a call and arrange for me to come out to check your machine.  I have a friend who is a Gunsmith and he buys Mazak lathes.

I can also write about aligning the tail-stock if needed.  Give me a day or so.  PM me please if you have any questions or write me Richard@handscraping.com or next week after the first.  651 338-8141
Good luck and everyone have a safe and Happy New Year  )


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## jmh8743 (Dec 29, 2012)

Richard,
tnx. I tried to use a tube, however, it was poorly formed and my skim cut was 0.045 and not cleaned up. Abandoned the tube. So i fd a 10" bar, indicated it and took off 20 t. Skim cut finished. Will digest your 2 posts and will send pics, then finish workpiece as you described after church. Made my skim 6.5" long. Will not use rest of bar. Pic will show.
mike


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## Richard King (Dec 29, 2012)

Use alum if you have it...or leaded cold roll...I'll say a little prayer and cross my fingers, toes, arms and legs...lol.


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## jmh8743 (Dec 30, 2012)

My machine:




the bar, "skimmed", 6.20". collars next, later this afternoon. OD about 1.2". This matl has poor machinability, lotsa iron. Has some 2.5" AL, but high $ stuff. 235 rpm, 0.014 "/rpm. Finish OK, not good.


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## jgedde (Dec 30, 2012)

Have you gotten your lathe issue straightened out (no pun intended)?

 Aligning the headstock on your lathe is tedious, but it is not difficult.  

There are simply four bolts you need to loosen...  Two under the chuck end, and two more under the rear of the spindle.  On the back of the headstock, there should be two jack bolts allowing you to tweak the headstock.   You do not need to perform any further dissassembly nor "remove any gears".  If the headstock is "pinned", you'll need to remove and discard the pins.

I just loosen all 4 headstock to bed bolts and the jack bolts and muscle the head around to get it as close as I can using a test bar with max TIR set at the top of the bar.  Now, lightly snug up the headstock to bed bolts lightly and use the jack bolts for the fine adjustments.  Now you can begin taking test cuts on a thick aluminum round over at least 6-8" for the final tweaking.  

Of course it is essential to ensure the lathe is leveled properly and the bed isn't twisted before you start this.  A carpenter's level is nowhere near good enough.  You need a machinist's level.

I've got my Grizzly 4003G cutting only a 0.0002 over 8" per the above on a 3.5" dia piece of aluminum taking very light cuts to avoid springing the work.   It used to be 0.004!  My cross slide is slightly out with respect to the bed and there's not much I can do about it.  But, our lathes are imports, not Hardinges and are priced accordingly.

I have found that you need to align the bed to the spindle by longitudinal measurements, _not by using the cross slide and facing cuts_.  The latter includes two sources of error.  Also, do not use the tailstock when aligning the headstock!!!  The tailstock gets aligned to the headstock separately.

All this is presuming your lathe spindle isn't angled up or down with respect to the bed (which will also cause a taper to be cut).  If this is the case, there could be debris between one or more of the headstock or bed "pads" or the bed pads were ground with the bed sprung.  

John


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## Richard King (Dec 30, 2012)

Your bar is sticking out way to long, shorten it up. The collrs need to be 6" apart. Not 12".  No one ever machines a shaft that long with out the tail-stock.  John is right on the procedures.  I know you are a re-thinker, but these methods work, trust me.

I think you have had so many issues created from these so called Jet experts but it doesn't sound like any had experienced in alignment and have messed up your machine and mind.
As they say this is not John's or mine first Rodeo.


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## jmh8743 (Dec 30, 2012)

Richard,

The distance between the cleared area in the photo is 6.2". So you are saying cut it off at the dychem?

I can take it out of the chuck NOW, cut and reindex, then undercut, etc.

10-4. I have chucked 2", very solid chuck forces. BUT I did NOT use a "cheater bar" on chuck key. Hee Hee as they said. The fat lady is tuning up.

Have a good Sunday. Maybe we can help someone else.

Mike


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## jmh8743 (Dec 30, 2012)

John,

I am an engineer-surveyor. The level I used has a radius measured in seconds>>>than a machinists level 'tho I have one which I used initially.

I think now, with the help (read confidence) I'm getting now, after 2 years I'm getting close AND my lathe measured about same as yours. Impossible to bore.

All I can say is gracias for your comment. What I did not know is which comes first "the chicken or the egg".

Mike


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## Richard King (Dec 30, 2012)

Must be an optical illusion....looks like it's sticking out  a foot.   Yeah I think I am going to take the day off. 

Have a good day. 

Rich


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## jmh8743 (Dec 31, 2012)

Richard & John,

Per the work specifications:









Headstock:






John, I do have some gears to move to get to the darn adjustment bar. Right now, other fish to fry. I'm going to make a photo of the left side of the headstock. I found the bar you were talking about. And per "_All this is presuming your lathe spindle isn't angled up or down with respect to the bed". _This I do not know. I presume that is next.
I do know that vertical HS to way vs TS to ways is w/i 0.002" using centers and a 24" ground test bar.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...ccessories/lathe-centering-bar-prod20884.aspx



One more thing Rick, the distance between c to c of collar:





Mike...Thank you both.

"If it is DON'T Start aligning your head. Let me know and I'll tell you what to do next. I am getting writers cramp..."

Commentary: Before I bought my lathe, I read many commentaries about manf lack of concern. From my meager point of view, I have applied ALL the leverage I can muster to the retailer. It seems prudent that some self governing and autonomous organization could gather enough support to garner "if you sell here" specifications. From the money I spent over the 2 yrs fighting this issue, I could have HIRED knowledgeable professionals (both of you and travel) to assemble this lathe. The retailer would have agreed on 50%+50%. However, I did not KNOW (ignorance on my behalf) even after thorough investigation. The wholesaler did not care...they have gotten away with this business practice so long. In Alabama, it is the responsibility of the retailer. They have the fiducial responsibility.

I uploaded the photos that did not show herein to :

http://winchester52.blogspot.com/2012/12/continuation-of-jet-ghl-13x40.html


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## Richard King (Dec 31, 2012)

It looks like it's a . 0032 bigger near the chuck.  As I said I would turn that big end down so it reads 1.065" too. before adjusting the head.  I hope you understand what I am trying to explain.  Your making a test bar the same as the ground one you have. 

You could put your ground bar back in, but you will have to indicate it in so the TIR is less the a .0001".   With your turned bar you are  following the true axis of your spindle bearings or the same way you will have when you are using the machine.  This method will work for you and it will help the other guys who do not own a ground test bar. 

With this method you need not dismantle the gears each time take a cut and hoping it will be perfect.  I find it takes a couple of tries no matter which method you use.  From the drawing in the Winchester link shows you how to adjust the head.  I can't be positive, but I am assuming the head pivot id under the right side of center and not directly in the center.

After you turn the bar down, loosen the HS bolts holding it down to the bed keeping them finger tight, then mount an indicator in the tool post and zero it at the chuck end and then crank the saddle to the right until you get to the other collar loosen the HS and loosen the front swivel adjusting bolt like a 1/8 of  turn and tighten the back  swivel adjusting bolt.  This will swivel the head. This is a trial and error method as I have no clue here knowing the ratio to the swivel adjuster screws to the amount of movement.  I would venture a guess you will need to move it about .0025".   Then crank the saddle back and forth and keep adjusting it so the bar is straight.  

Remember I said the TS end should be .0001 + in 6" to compensate for push away when cutting.  After you have it good tighten the head and recheck it again by cranking it.   If your happy, then re-assemble the gears and take a clean up cut. .   After your done if you want to see which way the head is pointing and do the final clean up cuts that are good.  Mount the mag base on the compound put your indicator on the top of the bar and move the cross-slide back and forth and get top dead center, zero the indicator, crank it down and do a top dead center check on the other collar.  The head is suppose to be pointing up on TS end .0002" in 12".


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## jmh8743 (Jan 1, 2013)

Mr. King,
I intend to begin the procedure you described tomorrow. Also, FYI, there is another thread "...buying a new lathe" which describes procedures I should have been aware of, but allas due to my inexperience failed to comply. Tony W advised at the beginning "get over it...proceed" which I did not think I could do. I blamed that deficiency on an illness I had in '06 which I am just now overcoming, albeit with some physical disability. You are correct about the questionable advise of others. Your help has given me confidence beyond the ill gotten BS I knew could not work.
Finally, I will post photos as I proceed. That way, you can, if desired, edit and use this data at your leisure with my blessing. 

J M (Mike) Hillman PE & LS
Remap , AL

HERE IS WHERE I'LL START:


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## Richard King (Jan 1, 2013)

Your Welcome..

In 5 years you won't even recall this happened......I had some medical issues that started about 10 years ago...I had a good doctor who I trusted, misdiagnose my problem and had me on 2 depression pills as he said I was depressed.  I would not get out of bed, was supper unhappy and my teaching and rebuilding career came to a halt.   One day at the Dr. office he said..."I am stumped, maybe you should see a specialist".  I went to the University of MN and saw a professor / MD and within 2 days had me correctly diagnosed and on the mend.  I was never depressed, I have a condition called "Factor 5" that makes my blood real thick and when it is thick it can't circulate in my brain right and makes me look depressed.  Now I take a blood thinner and I am fine.

So hang in there Mike, thing will get better.    You're like anyone else, you spend hard earned money for something and you want it perfect.  Plus when the factory sends out a repairman you assume they know what they are doing.  I am happy I could have helped. Have a Happy day off New Year !!  Rich

PS:  We all have our skills....I wish I knew how to put arrows in pictures like you do.....lol  My Dad use to say to me "when you stop learning something new every day of your life, you will be dead".


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## jmh8743 (Jan 2, 2013)

Mr King,
Made a collosal misunderstanding of your instructions:
1) I removed the bar, and turned it to 1.065
2) Then I indicated the "buttstock" of the work difficult to explain:




Look close and you can see the chuck marks where it was held. Arrow is thin; turned the end that was in the chuck. Reversed and WOW. The run out was large to say the least.
3) Recut both collars as seen above.
4) THEN YOU CAN SEE MY CONUMDRUM





5)





It is now chucked W/O crush tabs. There are some other issues here. Is it ground bar time?
Multiple measurements made only a few 10ths diff.
Maybe the tabs are the culprit... Headed to hse for lunch. It appears that "moving" the work was not intended but good I did it.

Mike

Cold out there (in shop). Wood heater needs stuffing. + Soup is hot tho
I think after lunch I'll reindicate the "buttstock" with that chuck (high $$) and see If I can repeat the measurements. It appears the chuck is not engaging the work uniformly.


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## jmh8743 (Jan 2, 2013)

stage 2 measurements prior to adjusting HS:

Original bar rechucked, total ind runout 0.0002":

1. Set 0.0001" Gage at HS, set at 0.0100" indicated




2. moved DG to outboard collar:




IG now reading 0.0025". Does this not mean the trued collar has moved 0.0075 toward operator?


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## jmh8743 (Jan 2, 2013)

HEADSTOCK IS NOT PINNED. AS SHOWN IN POST #1. THE ADJUSTMENT SCREWS ARE PLACEBOS. I really, really need some help from someone that has done this.

Using a dial indicator at the rear of the HS, there is not movement when adjustments are turned. That is why JET avoided the issue.

Help me I've fallen and cant get up. Hee Hee

Mike


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## Richard King (Jan 2, 2013)

Call me as your not understanding.  You are totally screwing up an easy procedure.  On all the machines I have seen have a fulcrum pin about 1" diameter under the center of the head stock.  I am not talking about the dowel pins.  They should be pulled out and after you get the shaft cutting straight you will have to ream new pin holes as the old ones will be useless and a new pin will need to be installed unless they are taper pins.   I did not want you to remove the 2 collar shaft and I did not want you to indicate the inner close to the chuck collar.  I am sorry you are not understanding this as I have told people in the past to do it.  CALL ME next time your in your shop and ready to turn the part.  This is a simple issue and should not be so complicated.

If the head stock does not have a center fulcrum pin then leave one pin in the front so the head will pivot on that pin and the adjusters.  Do you have a blue print other then what you have on the Winchester?  If not give me the machine serial number, model number,  your dealers name, do you have copies of the work orders Jet gave the repairmen, your name and address so I can call Jet and have them send me a blue print.  Email me at Richard@handscraping.com  my phone number is 651 338 8141.

After thinking more about this I need to call Jet and talk to them, so they can send me a blue print before you call me.  Email your info to me please.  I want to help you resolve this issue and you are to emotional about it an not understanding.  You need to chill out.


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## jgedde (Jan 2, 2013)

Mike,

I'd still like to see you use a MUCH beefier test bar made from aluminum as opposed to steel.  It cuts easier and as a result will spring less. 

 My bar is currently 3.25" or so in diameter and about 10" long.  The fact that I see chatter on the test bar convinces me your bar is springing.  You'll never know what you've got with a setup like that...

I'll read your posts again about the placebo comment and see if can offer any further suggestions.

John


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## jgedde (Jan 2, 2013)

jmh8743 said:


> John,
> 
> I am an engineer-surveyor. The level I used has a radius measured in seconds>>>than a machinists level 'tho I have one which I used initially.
> 
> ...



Mike,  Sounds like you did right with the leveling.  Two measurements taken at right angles to the ways at each end of the bed read the same, yes?

John


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## jgedde (Jan 2, 2013)

jmh8743 said:


> John, I do have some gears to move to get to the darn adjustment bar. Right now, other fish to fry. I'm going to make a photo of the left side of the headstock. I found the bar you were talking about. And per "_All this is presuming your lathe spindle isn't angled up or down with respect to the bed". _



If your lathe is off with respect to the bed vertically (mine is a bit), the best you can do w_ithout dissassembling the beastie and scraping and fitting and shimming (oh my!) _is to compensate for the taper caused by this.  Alas, this will only be good at one diameter...  

As for the "placebo" bar, I can't fathom why the adjustment feature does nothing.  Perhaps she really is pinned?  Are all the bolts loose?  Is the head free to move?  For any further advice, I'd have to defer to Richard.  If he can get a copy of the prints rom Jet, maybe we can figure how the adjustment feature is supoosed to work.

Richard, as an interesting bit of trivia, my G4003 has no fulcrum pin...  That would've made life so much easier for me!   How 'bout a trip to Alabama with Banjo's on our knees?  :rofl:

John


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## Tony Wells (Jan 2, 2013)

Mike, relax a little.....slow down and approach this problem with patience and perseverance. According to a manual I found online, I believe for your lathe, alignment is possible as I described.

Headstock
The headstock (B, Fig. 10) is cast from high
grade, low vibration cast iron. It is bolted to
the bed by four screws with two adjusting
screws for alignment. In the head, the spindle
is mounted on two precision taper roller
bearings. The hollow spindle has Morse
Taper #5 with a 1-1/2" bore.

Page 24 of the manual describes the procedure. I believe you can do it. You are getting good advise from a very experienced, very skilled individual and lots of support from everyone. We want you to understand this, and accomplish this successfully.

manual: http://content.wmhtoolgroup.com/manuals/m-321810.pdf


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## jmh8743 (Jan 3, 2013)

Thank You Tony, John & Richard,

Due to chatter I made a very light .001 cut on both colars, but all of that is trivial now. As Richard said I screwed up an easy application. There are not 4 screws I can find.

PM to Richard.

1) fd 2 cap screws beneath the chuck, loosened same.

2) fd 1 as below:





Cant find the 4th. See post 37.  It cannot be beneath the pulley.
Also see Post 17....I have the piece Steve got me to cut that one to face. It is 2.5". Also I have some 2.5" SS tubing.

JMH at reduced anxiety level.


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## Richard King (Jan 3, 2013)

Take your time....call up jet and ask them.  I am to tired to do much else tonight.  I can't imagine they only have 3 hold down bolts.  I'm rebuilding machinery during the day.  It was easy to write a lot during the holidays, but now we have to wait until Sat.  Thanks Tony for the book.  And John is right about the bar size. It looked like Aluminum to me, until you said it was steel. 
Good Night


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## Richard King (Jan 4, 2013)

I called Walter Meier today and talked to Steve in Technical service and he said he wished you had called him.   Here is his Email. Steve.Pershon@waltermeier.com

 He said there are 4 bolts holding the head to the bed. The bolts are in a square pattern on the bottom of the head.  He said to remove the pulley and gear and you will find the 2 of the bolts.  He said the pin in front is what I suspected.  It's the pivot point. He said if you took it out, to put it back in and put in a shaft in the chuck and rough align it by moving the saddle back and forth and when it's close, then take a cut as described in the manual .  He looked up your name and could not find it in his files. ??  

If you didn't have all 4 bolts lose there was no way you could have moved the head.  I am a BIG Believer in reading the directions or calling the factory help techs.  I know you have had bad luck with a couple of service people, but on average I think many of these people who do service calls are good.  Steve was sincere and I could tell he knew what he was talking about. 

He did say the block in the back has 2 lock nuts on the adjusting screws.  He said that if it was .0032 out then that moving the head just a small amount is all you need, even said he has used a soft blow hammer to tap it over.  He said if you can't get it call him on Monday. He was wondering if you have Skype on you computer?  He said you can talk on it and not the cell phone.  I invited him to join us here as he is an technical expert on Jet, Wilton, and Powermatic.  He has several years of experience as a service man for these machines.   Be sure you have  sharp tool and only take .001 to .002" on your last pass.  Per other posts.  I suggest you take a no touch the cross feed screw after you last .001" pass.   Stop the spindle and don't touch anything and slowly crank the saddle toward TS end.  Watch to see if the tool bit or insert drags a scratch on the TS end collar.  If it does take another free pass not touching the cross feed again.   Do this until you do not see a scratch. Then measure it and move the head. DO NOT TAKE THE TEST BAR OF THE CHUCK AT ANY TIME WHILE DOING THIS.  NOT UNTIL YOUR SATISFIED.

As I said you can call me as it might be easier to understand hearing it.   
I found Steve at Walter Meier as a very helpful professional.  So you may want to edit your posts or add "it is your opinion"

Rich


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## jmh8743 (Jan 8, 2013)

jgedde said:


> Mike, Sounds like you did right with the leveling. Two measurements taken at right angles to the ways at each end of the bed read the same, yes?
> 
> John



Hey john,

No placebo jam nuts. I could not find the 4th nut. It was there, well hidden. (Hello  Tony).

A little belated, but, answer is no. There were 4 points measured to 0.001 ft. Super instrument, reads a bar-coded rod. Bought it 7 years ago. Still state-of-the-art. Use it rarely to its full extent.

Wish I had a pic to show you.

Mike


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## jmh8743 (Jan 8, 2013)

*Re: Jet 13X40 Headstock alignment nightmare with Walter Meier. Reply to Richard.*

Mr. King:

My opinion expressed herein in my opinion alone and is based upon my unique experience with various field peronnel employed by the vendor and the statements I made below are the truth as I can recall.

Now, the 4th bolt was not behind the pulley!.... The bolt is in the electrical cabinet, a part of the bed, of course, oh dumb me.




Removed the door and hinges/frame on left side. 

1) Then went to remove the pulley and with the frame off I could see there was nothing behind it.

2) The rear of the HS doesnt have a joint between the HS and the bed...it had been filled with bondo. Dumb me.

3) Then I measured top to crack front and struck me a line....dremel tool and cut the line.

Had it not been for your call to WM, I would not have found it. 





The belts supplied were short lived. As they failed they threw rubber all over the cabinet, like the "marbles" at a NASCAR track, so I cleaned all that up and have some fenner belts on the way from Grainger. It was a mess. The drain tubes I added make the oil changes a breeze. The stock drains are plugs. Ugh! whatta mess!

You can see that I have removed the door and the frame.

Mike
Remlap, AL

PS More to come. Many thanks to all contributors, and Mr. King who called JET. I can see the fat lady tuning up.


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## Richard King (Jan 26, 2013)

I use to say the only people who called me MR. King were my kid friends or the bill collectors.  lol....Mike please call me Rich.  
If the Jet is the only mechanical problem you have in your life, you are getting off pretty easy.  Life's a ***** sometimes.  Hopefully everyone reading about your Jet issues have been a learning from your experience.  I am glad I could have helped and as I also tell people looking for a quick fix to things for a repairman ""It's not like we have a crystal ball". A lot of trial and error and being a detective to find and fix.
Have to thank Nelson for providing us this forum so we could all help you.   Keep up the good work!   Rich


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## Tony Wells (Jan 26, 2013)

These things are mechanical devices, and no magic is involved, but it sure can tax the patience of a rebuilder or repairman. And if it's new territory for you, it's understandable why it's even more frustrating. But perseverance pays, along with a little encouragement from friends. Keep pushing, and it will be over soon.


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## jmh8743 (Jan 28, 2013)

*Re: Jet 13X40 Headstock alignment and Update model # GH-1340W*

For those of you that have been following this thread, the following is an update to this issue. How do you get the text to wrap?






This is how I was able to get close, a secure mount for tenths DI. My prior useage was an SPI jointed-magnetic holder which was junk, at least for this application. Also, if you notice, the chuck has a commercially produced test bar closely ground and with a MT#5 end and a plain end. The MT is inserted in the spindle. There are other procedures w/o this bar which are described herein in prior posts by Mr. King. I suggest you research that explanation and approach.
The early parts of this thread reflects, among other issues, my own frustration with the distributor. At least in my thoughts, you get what you pay for, but not necessarily. So the last say 10 posts should be of primary interest to those with similar situations. Pay attention to the posts that show the location of the 4 HS bolts. Also as Richard King suggests, actually remove the cap screws and look for adequate clearance for the HS to move. I did not do this, which caused additional effort which I feel behooved to describe. Mirrors required.
Also I did find herein a thorough post that presents means of adjusting, analyzing tailstock alignment. Search "Simple Lathe Alignment Methods And Their Problems", I think by GaryC. Many topics are undertaken and it is well worth reading.
I suggest you not take anything herein as a guaranteed fact and satisfy yourself regarding appilcation to your unique situation. 
There exists (3) parts to contend with 1) the substructure or undercarraige, 2) the bed ways and finally 3) the headstock. The headstock bolts to the bed with a 1" pin and (4) cap screws which require a 10mm hex allen, torq drivers, 2-14mm end wrenchs, and a 1/2" pipe 14" long, 3/8" rachets for 16, 18 and 19mm sockets (for the gear set). Procure several pieces of 2" dia AL or a 1018, L18 or L17 bars. Also you might want a comfortable stool.






Remove the left side access door, the motor cover and the electrical cover. Unplug the machine and devise a means to hold the relay cover open because you will have to power-on, power-off in the process. Be careful. There is 220 volts to the panel. It can kill you.

Cut the rear joint interface with the bed and the headstock.

The (4) HS cap screws I numbered, facing the lathe front #1 & 2, then #3 w/i the relay panel and finally #4 to the rear of chuck. Numbering clockwise from the front #1 under the chuck. After many hours of trial and error, the final procedure I selected was: 
tighten all 4 finger tight++

start
with 2-14 mm end wrenches made your trial adjustment with the adjustment block (see photo) and tighten wrench firm. There will be some liaitance between the adjustment bolt head and the bed, loosen bolts and scrape to metal.
then:
tighten #1 & 3 to ~ 40ft-lbs slowly each half, then half.
then tighten #2 15 deg and watch DI, mine moved 0.0003" right facing rear.
then tighten #4 30 deg and watch DI, mine moved 0.0005" left.
tighten #1 with cheater bar ~ 80 ft lbs
tighten #3 with ratchet ~ 80 ft-lbs
tighten #2 15 deg and watch DI, slight movement, maybe a tenth,
then tighten #4 30 deg and watch DI, mine moved 0.0005" left.

This worked for me. Yours will be different. 

read and weep, 
Go to start

Once you are satisfied with the above and meas to DI, install gears. This will take 10~15 min after practice.
Remove your test bar and install chuck. (or not)
Install test piece, and cut collars, etc per R. Kings instructions herein. (I had several, including some 536 tube. None of the structural steels have machinability >40)




Decision time. The end of bar toward TS should be 0.0002" larger in diameter. Wait, remeasure. Write it down in a log. Do not shortcut your note keeping. It will save you hours.

The JET 13X40 can be aligned to the specifications and w/i the Q/C supplied with your lathe. Do not expect the manf rep to be able or initiate the above procedure. (The rep told me "Mike, if you had told me I had a good lathe"). Just do it.

What actual time was involved? Once I found all 4 screws ~ 40 hrs. Remember I can be easily challenged.

Thanks to all that helped, Richard, John (without a pin) and Tony. Hope this helps a novice in the future or anyone that purchases a JET.

J M (Mike) H
Remlap AL


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## Tony Wells (Jan 28, 2013)

Good for you, Mike. Sometimes messing with machinery can be frustrating, but as long as you accomplished your goal, and learned something along the way, you did as well as any of us.

I have to say this, though. You make me (and I'm sure a couple of others) cringe a bit when I see your pictures of your micrometer "clamped" upon your test bar.


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## jmh8743 (Feb 6, 2013)

Tony & Richard (somewhere in the south pacific),

FYI:
Hello. Took a piece of AL, 2.5" tubing, and made a single cut. Got same results, of course w/i my ability to measure. I have one more comment on this thread in about 2 mos.

Thanks again to ALL.

Mike


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## jmh8743 (Mar 8, 2013)

Hello again on the JET lathe scenario:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/show...-independent-chuck-8-quot?p=105258#post105258

i did not stand a chance. I get to do this again.

thanks to all showing concern. It looks like the original bundled chuck was not poor quality as the JET tech stated and I did not need "a quality chuck". Naïveté to say the least on my part.

Mike


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