# Is Starrett 18C the only reliable auto prick punch?



## Ken from ontario (Nov 10, 2019)

I sometimes work with metal and copper sheets both thick 16Ga / thinner like 24Ga.  there has been many occasions when I only have one hand free and need to mark the sheet and that's when my cheap General center punch decides to fail! .need  something better , more consistent.
I think the only brand left that  can still  punch soft metal or  stainless steel , is Starrett (18C), was wondering if any one has seen good performance from any other manufacturers ? how about Lisle30280 prick punch? I know there are thousands of different brands but they all seem to be for woodworking .


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## stevewatr (Nov 10, 2019)

Check out the brown & sharpe 771. Good quality.

There was also a variation, the 771-2 that had a rounded ball end that I'd like to try. Seems like all the 771-2's I've seen were made in England, so probably pretty old.

If you don't need an automatic, check out PB Swiss tools. They make some nice punches, including center punches with carbide tips.

Steve.

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk


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## darkzero (Nov 10, 2019)

I suppose some are hit & miss. I've had an alumnium body 20 yr old HF one that I used daily when I was a mechanic & it surprisngly never failed on me consider how much that thing got used & thrown around. Ended up leaving it at the shop when I left. I've had a General that was decent & another now that is junk.

My Starrett 18A is pretty nice & has never failed me. It's the newer model without replaceable tip.

I've heard the Rennsteig ones are pretty nice but I've never used one personally. They're kind of bulky though cause they're not shaped like most automatic center punches & kind of pricey.

These days I don't use an automatic center punch much anymore. I prefer to just use a good ol fashion punch & hammer. One strike & I'm done. With automatic ones I find myself punching multiple times to get a nice punch mark.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 10, 2019)

I just googled Rennsteig center punches , they seem a bit bulky but maybe that could be an advantage when using with one hand. the Starrett 18C that I could get from Amazon may not be made in USA but if I find a used one or NOS locally, I'll not hesitate. the used ones on eBay get to be too expensive .

Steve, I checked out the B&S &&! on eBay, they look very much like the General I have , I'll see if I could find them on the used market here, thanks .


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## Choiliefan (Nov 11, 2019)

I have a Starrett which is so old its stamped "LS Starrett pat. apld for" but no model number.
It still works fine despite the tip end being slightly bulged from many thousands of strikes.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 11, 2019)

Snap-on Store
					






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i own 2, they are better than sliced bread


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 11, 2019)

Found this discussion on the subject, the majority seem to like Starrett, but General and old Craftsman get a few praises. all the old ones seem to work  better , the design is not changed but the quality of springs as well as the workmanship is what sets the newer ones apart from the old. 





						Automatic Center Punch- Which Brand?
					

Love this site, it is the idea place my checking account didn't want me to find!  You guys here have saved many thousands of guys from buying the wrong stuff- really a great wealth here.  I'll start off by admitting my wrenches and ratchets are Craftsman and some Snap On, when you work on boats...




					www.garagejournal.com


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 11, 2019)

darkzero said:


> My Starrett 18A is pretty nice & has never failed me. It's the newer model without replaceable tip.
> 
> I've heard the Rennsteig ones are pretty nice but I've never used one personally. They're kind of bulky though cause they're not shaped like most automatic center punches & kind of pricey.


I just ordered the German made punch you mentioned (Rennsteig), it claims to have the highest striking force of 180-250 N.(184 ft-lb) I'll find out how well it performs in real life, thanks Will.


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## Illinoyance (Nov 11, 2019)

I have used Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, and General.  All worked reliably.    My complaint about all is they are furnished with center punch points (90* angle).  P would much prefer prick punch points (60* angle).


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## darkzero (Nov 11, 2019)

Ken from ontario said:


> I just ordered the German made punch you mentioned (Rennsteig), it claims to have the highest striking force of 180-250 N.(184 ft-lb) I'll find out how well it performs in real life, thanks Will.



Nice! I didn't know that. They look bulky but because of the handle design I hear they are comfortable to use.

Please let us know how you like it, I may have to get one too. 

Edit: Just looked up the prices, not too expensive, I thought I remembered them costing much more.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 11, 2019)

Illinoyance said:


> I have used Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, and General.  All worked reliably.    My complaint about all is they are furnished with center punch points (90* angle).  P would much prefer prick punch points (60* angle).


I see your point, this new one I just got probably has a 90° tip also ,I do agree the regular prick punches I use the most are the ones with sharper points.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 11, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Nice! I didn't know that. They look bulky but because of the handle design I hear they are comfortable to use.
> 
> Please let us know how you like it, I may have to get one too.


I'll most definitely do that, if it is as good as they say it is, then I'm sure there are a few of us here who are always on the look out for decent lay out tools.


darkzero said:


> Edit: Just looked up the prices, not too expensive, I thought I remembered them costing much more.


Yeah, the price was not too bad even in Canadian $  ,  it was under $55. a bit cheaper than the Starrett, although that was not the reason for buying it, I am not sure the Starrett tools Amazon sell are actually made in USA, I could be wrong though.


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## darkzero (Nov 11, 2019)

Ken from ontario said:


> I'll most definitely do that, if it is as good as they say it is, then I'm sure there are a few of us here who are always on the look out for decent lay out tools



I think this may be the first time I helped someone spend their money & my own money at the same time!


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## Bob Korves (Nov 11, 2019)

I prefer a 120 degree punch point for starting 118 degree drills.  Anything less than the drill point angle and your drill is trying to walk, which causes inaccuracy.


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## kd4gij (Nov 11, 2019)

I have 2 from way back when I was a manufacturing optician  made by vigor in Sweden. Looks like the don't make them any more either.


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## talvare (Nov 11, 2019)

This seems to be a decent buy:









						THE L.S. STARRETT CO. 18C AUTOMATIC CENTER PUNCH = NEW W/ BOX =  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for THE L.S. STARRETT CO. 18C AUTOMATIC CENTER PUNCH = NEW W/ BOX = at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				




Ted


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## darkzero (Nov 11, 2019)

Ken from ontario said:


> Yeah, the price was not too bad even in Canadian $ , it was under $55. a bit cheaper than the Starrett, although that was not the reason for buying it, I am not sure the Starrett tools Amazon sell are actually made in USA, I could be wrong though.



Well I just ordered the 250N one also. I guess I was remembering correctly of them being $50-$60. It's just that Amazon's price is really good. $32 USD, not sure what that is in CAD but I'm assuming the price you mentioned. Had my eye on one a while back but forgot about them. Thanks for the reminder Ken!


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 11, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Well I just ordered the 250N one also. I guess I was remembering correctly of them being $50-$60. It's just that Amazon's price is really good. $32 USD, not sure what that is in CAD but I'm assuming the price you mentioned. Had my eye on one a while back but forgot about them. Thanks for the reminder Ken!


I did enjoy spending you money Will, probably just as much as you did mine, $32 USD sounds about right, I paid $39.53 Canadian but I also had to pay ~ $15 for shipping. I agree ,the price in either currency is quite reasonable . for all we know, Amazon could jack up the price just before Christmas.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 11, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> I prefer a 120 degree punch point for starting 118 degree drills.  Anything less than the drill point angle and your drill is trying to walk, which causes inaccuracy.


Do you find 120 degree punches easy to use Bob? I would imagine it would be harder to see exactly where to make the indentation.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 11, 2019)

kd4gij said:


> I have 2 from way back when I was a manufacturing optician  made by vigor in Sweden. Looks like the don't make them any more either.
> 
> View attachment 305638


Looks like they don't make them like the used to any more, the only Vigor I could find is a cheap imitation under the name Vigor V1783, very much the same story of the old General and the new General center punches, only the older ones are worth keeping.


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## Bob Korves (Nov 12, 2019)

Ken from ontario said:


> Do you find 120 degree punches easy to use Bob? I would imagine it would be harder to see exactly where to make the indentation.


Ken, I actually use the standard prick punch lightly to initially locate the hole, and then use that hole to start the 120 degree punch in.  The prick punch to mark the location most precisely, followed by the 120 degree punch for locating the following drill.  Finish with a boring bar if the hole does not test to being in the correct location, well before the hole reaches full size.  This is only for fussy work...


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## darkzero (Nov 13, 2019)

Ken from ontario said:


> I did enjoy spending you money Will, probably just as much as you did mine, $32 USD sounds about right, I paid $39.53 Canadian but I also had to pay ~ $15 for shipping. I agree ,the price in either currency is quite reasonable . for all we know, Amazon could jack up the price just before Christmas.



Did you get yours yet? Mine arrived today. I didn't want to say anything until you posted about it since this is your thread. So I'll just simply say that I like it. I guess I may start using automatic center punches more often again. Thanks again Ken & myself.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 13, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Did you get yours yet? Mine arrived today. I didn't want to say anything until you posted about it since this is your thread. So I'll just simy say that I like it. I guess I may start using automatic center punches more often again. Thanks again Ken & myself.



Mine is coming tomorrow by UPS.
So why don't you tell us what you think of it, does it strike with every push? looking at the photos I noticed the red knob on the end adjusts the amount of force that it delivers , is it actually sensitive enough to work ? can it punch thin Aluminum  as well as 1/8" thick mild steel? that's what I'm hoping for. I want to be able to adjust it to mark  22Ga copper and also set it on max to punch let's say heavy gauge mild steel or even stainless steel.


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## darkzero (Nov 13, 2019)

So far mine has struck evertime I tried. It's not a replace all IMO, it requires considerable force to strike. Not that it's hard, the fat handle knob makes it easy to use since it fits the palm with more surface area. I remember my hand getting sore when I needed to use an auto center punch so much in a short period of time. The knob is fixed with the rest of the handle, the entire handle turns when adjusting. For more delicate work/thinner materials I'd use a smaller one.

Here's the auto center punches I have in the garage. Left is a cheapie from Enco (not sure why I still have it), Starrett 18A & 2 Generals.



Same order, max tension on all, 16ga square tubing. The arrow is pointing to the Enco in case you can't see it. Not sure why I haven't tossed that thing out already. It's worthless, barely leaves a mark on steel maxed out & doesn't strike half the time. The Rennsteig is just slightly stronger than the larger General I have but it's a lot more comfortable to use




The adjustment for force doesn't seem to be a great range of change. Again on thinner materials I'd prefer to use something smaller. This is aluminum just under 60 thou thick. Top set of punches is the Rennsteig, set from low to high, no particular order. Bottom 3 is the Starrett 18A, set mediumish



Backside




I like it & I hope to use it more often than my I did with my others but still I prefer a punch & a hammer at home. Unfortuantely the thing is too fat to fit in the drawer that I keep my auto center punches in. Need to find a place for it where I don't forget & easily accessible otherwise It may never get used.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 13, 2019)

Thanks for the photos and detailed explanation, the size of the Rennsteig is substantial when compared to your other punches and seem to produce decent divots, I think for copper/thinner gauge metals the smallest 20-50 N model(or maybe 60-130 N) is more appropriate.
Thanks for the review, now I have an idea what to expect.


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## darkzero (Nov 13, 2019)

Ken from ontario said:


> the size of the Rennsteig is substantial when compared to your other punche



It sure is, that's exactly what put me on the fence about getting one. It's definitely not convenient in size & can be cumbersome but I can appreciate what Rennsteig had in mind with the design.... comfort & possibly less fatigue if used a lot. The black portion on the handle is cushioned & they even put flats on the knob to prevent rolling. Still much more convenient than a punch & hammer with 2 hands. Zee Germans always overthink things (which is good in this case).

I think maybe I'll just leave the thing on my bench. That way it'll always be easy to access.


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## mikey (Nov 14, 2019)

darkzero said:


> I like it & I hope to use it more often than my I did with my others but still I prefer a punch & a hammer at home.



I only have a General automatic punch that still works well but it just sits. I, too, prefer a prick punch followed by a center punch because I am more accurate with it. Plus, I don't like big divots that the automatic punches make. I prefer as tiny a spot as I can make as long as it is accurate. This is usually enough to get a spotting drill located, which is the goal after all. 

Not dissing your choice, Ken and Will. Maybe I'm just an old guy that prefers old school ways.


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## darkzero (Nov 14, 2019)

mikey said:


> I only have a General automatic punch that still works well but it just sits. I, too, prefer a prick punch followed by a center punch because I am more accurate with it. Plus, I don't like big divots that the automatic punches make. I prefer as tiny a spot as I can make as long as it is accurate. This is usually enough to get a spotting drill located, which is the goal after all.
> 
> Not dissing your choice, Ken and Will. Maybe I'm just an old guy that prefers old school ways.



Everyone has their own preferred methods, nothing wrong with that. Automatic center punches have their place, I used one a lot when I worked at my buddy's race shop, kept one in my shirt pocket. I prefer a punch & hammer cause it easier to control how deep of a divot I want rather than having to guess by setting the preload on the spring. But the automatic ones are convenient & quick if I'm not at home.

I actually prefer a deeper divot most of time. But really usually when I'm going to drill with a handheld or drill press & don't use a spotting drill. On the mill I don't bother center punching if there's a reference on the part that I can indicate off of & I'll just start off with a spotting drill.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 14, 2019)

I see all the logic behind everyone's method in marking the workpiece( prior to milling/machining).,  in my case though, when I work with thin aluminum/copper sheets (for light fixtures, fixtures, stained glass frames ,etc.) I often need to rivet two (already formed/bent) pieces of i.e. copper, . so I would need a series of indentations on two layers of thin copper, since the workpiece is often not flat, I temporarily clamp the layers with one hand while punching/marking for rivets with my other hand, the ideal tool would be an auto center punch with a very narrow or sharp angle tip that can mark both layers easily but it looks like the search will continue.


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## francist (Nov 14, 2019)

Could you just grind the tip to whatever profile you want? I ground my General years ago (still don't use it though).

-f


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 14, 2019)

francist said:


> Could you just grind the tip to whatever profile you want? I ground my General years ago (still don't use it though).
> 
> -f


I try to avoid doing that to my new punches but if the grinding is done correctly, it will do the trick.


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## pontiac428 (Nov 14, 2019)

My dad still uses the auto punch he made in high school shop class.  I have a 20-year old HF brass punch that works reliably despite the punch tip being softer than it should.  I never got around to making one myself, but now the gears are turning.

Here's a tip for buying Rennsteig tools- go to a Euro dealer and buy from them if they'll ship.  Germans don't like shipping export, so try Poland or Czech eBay sites.  I've bought a number of things this way after establishing my eBay account during the last decade when I lived overseas.  The latest was a Rennsteig scraper that cost me 1/3 of the asking price in the US delivered to my door.  High end (metric) measuring tools are another category that this approach pays.  Something to consider.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 14, 2019)

darkzero said:


> So far mine has struck evertime I tried. It's not a replace all IMO, it requires considerable force to strike. Not that it's hard, the fat handle knob makes it easy to use since it fits the palm with more surface area. I remember my hand getting sore when I needed to use an auto center punch so much in a short period of time. The knob is fixed with the rest of the handle, the entire handle turns when adjusting. For more delicate work/thinner materials I'd use a smaller one.
> 
> Here's the auto center punches I have in the garage. Left is a cheapie from Enco (not sure why I still have it), Starrett 18A & 2 Generals.
> View attachment 305827
> ...


I just received mine and I really like it, you were right on with your review on every point and there really isn't much more I could add,  this thing packs quite a punch so the medium size which is slightly less powerful than this model, would have also been fine for my use but so far  I have no regrets.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 14, 2019)

francist said:


> Could you just grind the tip to whatever profile you want? I ground my General years ago (still don't use it though).
> 
> -f



all of my auto punch points have been ground at one time or another, to differing angles 

i prefer 60°, but just about any angle can stop a bit from skidding


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## mmcmdl (Nov 14, 2019)

So , has anyone tested any of these punches on their windshield ? I hear that if you happen to swimming underwater in your vehicle that these punches could save your life . Please post results !


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## Bob Korves (Nov 15, 2019)

mmcmdl said:


> So , has anyone tested any of these punches on their windshield ? I hear that if you happen to swimming underwater in your vehicle that these punches could save your life . Please post results !


Windshields are made of laminated glass with a plastic layer in between to keep the shards from the glass from injuring the occupants.  You will not get an easy exit by breaking it.  Side and rear windows are made of tempered glass, that shatter into little pieces with relatively dull edges when they break.  Use your center punch (or whatever else) on anything but the windshield.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 15, 2019)

mmcmdl said:


> So , has anyone tested any of these punches on their windshield ? I hear that if you happen to swimming underwater in your vehicle that these punches could save your life . Please post results !


i have not tested on a windshield, but door glass instantly shatters into small pieces when an auto punch is applied


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