# When did metric take over?



## Batmanacw (Aug 20, 2022)

When did metric take over for cars, tractors,  farm equipment? 

I've built my bolt selection mostly based on what I could buy cheap for farm repair type work. I have bought a substantial amount of metric but definitely heavy on SAE. 

How is the split between sae and Metric on farm equipment? I see mostly metric in my line of work with industrial equipment. Almost all car stuff is metric. 


The reason I'm asking is I'm buying some Ez-lok threaded insert kits and I'm leaning toward prioritizing metric. The kits aren't cheap and I don't have jobs paying for them yet. I just want them on the shelf before I need them. I can buy an assortment each pay until I'm covered.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 20, 2022)

The US made a metric push in 1976 under Jimmy Carter, but the Reagan administration backed it off around 1982.


US cars I would say by mid 90s metric dominated. 80s you find some mix of metric and standard often on the same car. Import cars metric goes way back, my 1969 Toyota Landcruiser is metric.

My understanding is this was mostly tied to the vehicle platform. The automakers were not going to redesign existing platforms over fastener types, so long lived one's stayed standard longer, but major redesigns on the platform were often metric leading to the annoying mix of metric and standard. similarly long lived engines might find standard fittings on the engine with metric on the body / chassis.

The aero designs of the late 80s and early 90s seem to be the hard transion, Ford Tempo, and Taurus, Chevy Lumina, and Beretta, the Chrysler K cars and minivan etc. All of the big 3 were using rebadged imports in the 80s which were also metric. Then you have the occasional Euro divisions sold in the US with cars like the Mercury Capri (a German Ford design).

I'm not familiar with tractors but would guess a similar time frame. I have heard that because the US is such a large market for Ag equipment that many imports targeting the US market built to the US customary system instead of metric.

I would think by now you are unlikely to find standard on anything other than rather vintage equipment (30+ years).


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## randyjaco (Aug 20, 2022)

I sure wish that we would bite the bullet and go metric all the way like the rest of the world. The old fraction system is just stupid.


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## Provincial (Aug 20, 2022)

I had a friend who worked his way through college by repairing motorcycles for a dealership.  Triumphs and 
BSA's.  This was around 1970.  He said that all the bikes were a mixture of fastener sizes.  On just one bike he might use USA fractional, Whitworth/British Standard, and metric wrenches.


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## Provincial (Aug 20, 2022)

randyjaco said:


> I sure wish that we would bite the bullet and go metric all the way like the rest of the world. The old fraction system is just stupid.


One nation has put a man on the Moon, and brought him back safely.  The rest use the Metric system.


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## Jake M (Aug 20, 2022)

The US officially went metric in the late mid 1800s, and then about a hundred years later we officially adopted SI, which is essentially worldwide standardized metric.  We're just using inches because too stubborn to realize that the other system is outdated, antiquated, and inefficient.  We know better, but people don't wanna and you know...... How long ago did leadscrew handles go from having fractional inch divisions to just straight up base ten graduations?

Imagine your (milling machine, lathe, etc) having dials graduated at 128 of an inch, plus a vernier.  And imagine  what an improvement in somebody's life it was when they started seeing dials in 0.001 graduations.   That's what the metric system does for every field of measure.  It just makes life better.  But you've got to think about it for a little bit to get used to it.  So Americans (not America) refuse to go with it.

What I see in "metric takeover" is more like US manufacturers working it into the system.  You  started seeing things like cars with all inch standard designs, but a metric transmission.  Or a major update (or flat out new) engine, it became a metric engine.  Or a redesign of the front grille, and the fender "notches" for the corner lights had to change, so new tooling.  Fasteners changed to metric.  So it wasn't so much a date, as when it was convenient to stick it in there, because the tooling was being redone anyhow.

For  equipment, it's the same thing, but it's a different world.  Engines are legos, for sale anywhere to put in anything.  And transmissions, and pumps, final drives, etc...  They've been doing that for so long that the vast majority essentially had to be metric, so that they could be viably sold to the 15/16 of the world that doesn't use inch standards.  I do find that in transitional years you are more likely to find a machine "almost all" inch, or "almost all" metric, but brands and models...  There  wasn't a concise time frame really.  It was more about the global market  for  them, which came much later in the car world.

As far as a thread repair collection-  What are you doing with it?  Preemptive purchase, or are you fixing something in particular?  Personally, I think it's money, time, and shop space ahead to order the ones you actually use, instead of trying to prep for everything that's possible.  So the answer isn't where the world is going, it's "What's coming through your shop?"   I'd probably, if it were me, grab a modest kit that puts your most used size right about in the middle, and grow from there.  Very shortly going from "kits" to "bins", or your own larger compartment box to make your own kit, with the sizes you'll use.  There's just WAY too many sizes, let alone places where one or the other insert isn't appropriate, to be "ready for everything".  The "biased to inch" or "biased to metric" answer will sort it's self out in a way that fits what you do.

.02


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## Aaron_W (Aug 20, 2022)

The US left metric conversion to what is practical, rather than a forced transition as in Australia and India. For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, most everything that actually matters has mostly converted to metric. The holdouts are either strong personal preference, or awkward to convert.

Honestly where do you find heavy commercial use of US Customary measurement outside of building construction and land survey?  Companies are welcome to sell metric bathroom scales, and meter sticks but they don't sell well in the US when people are provided with options. 

Most products sold in the US are dual marked and often actually metric in size / wt. Even the US Customary system is defined by the metric system. 

Despite the propaganda the US is far from the only country still accepting older systems of measurement, the UK uses a similar mix with highways marked in miles, and beer sold by pints. Canada still has some hold out industries and even France who invented the Metric system keeps a few non-metric standards around.


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## Batmanacw (Aug 20, 2022)

Jake M said:


> The US officially went metric in the late mid 1800s, and then about a hundred years later we officially adopted SI, which is essentially worldwide standardized metric.  We're just using inches because too stubborn to realize that the other system is outdated, antiquated, and inefficient.  We know better, but people don't wanna and you know...... How long ago did leadscrew handles go from having fractional inch divisions to just straight up base ten graduations?
> 
> Imagine your (milling machine, lathe, etc) having dials graduated at 128 of an inch, plus a vernier.  And imagine  what an improvement in somebody's life it was when they started seeing dials in 0.001 graduations.   That's what the metric system does for every field of measure.  It just makes life better.  But you've got to think about it for a little bit to get used to it.  So Americans (not America) refuse to go with it.
> 
> ...


Most of what walks through my door is an Amish farmer or Yankee farmer who needs his machine to work to finish chores. Lol! I really never know. 

I spent about $140 on two assortments of ez-lok thread inserts. I'll spend just about $160 more to have a really good selection. I already have the taps and drills to utilize them. 

That's only $300 and I just might be able to send that farmer home with a properly repaired part. I have vastly more money in the drill bits and taps. Nevermind my bolt selection. I have to say that I'd happily spend that money for the peace of mind that I have it. 

All that knowing that these thread inserts are not perfect. I still might have to buy a helicoil when the hole is too tight to the edge of a casting. 


Someday soon you might go to order just what you need, just in time, and find yourself waiting a long time. It's happening to my sister's farm right now.


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## Winegrower (Aug 20, 2022)

I got sent to the grocery store on an emergency mission to get water fresh Mozzarella cheese balls.   There were two sizes of balls in little plastic tubs, same manufacturer, with the sizes named in Italian, which I could not understand, and to add stress, one tub was $8 and the other was $5.   So, read the label.   One said 2.5 grams, the other said 1/3 ounce.  Quick, which is bigger?    I still don’t know, I bought the $5 tub.


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## markba633csi (Aug 20, 2022)

28.35 grams to an ounce- So 1/3 oz is much bigger- 9.45 grams


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## silence dogood (Aug 20, 2022)

In the late 1700's, each state of our newly formed country had their own measuring system. Thomas Jefferson, who was secretary of state, wanted to standardize the system. He became intrigued by the new French metric system. France was to send a meter stick and a kilogram weight across the Atlantic. Unfortunately, the ship got blown off course and the pirates of the Caribbean got a hold of the items. By the time it got sorted out, the new secretary of state, Edmund Randolph, was not interested in a national measuring system.  We did finally adopt a national system. At least we don't have to deal with okshoofds, roedes, ons, or ponds. However, it might be fun, instead of ordering a pitcher of beer. You ask for stoop of beer. It's about 20 extra ounces.


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## Winegrower (Aug 20, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> 28.35 grams to an ounce- So 1/3 oz is much bigger- 9.45 grams


I knew somebody here would solve it.


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## Nutfarmer (Aug 21, 2022)

Buy the insert repair kits as you need them. In the end you will have what you need.


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## matthewsx (Aug 21, 2022)

I was a kid back in the 1970's when metric was reintroduced to America. I still have 10 fingers and 10 toes....

John


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## Shotgun (Aug 21, 2022)

Jake M said:


> We're just using inches because too stubborn to realize that the other system is outdated, antiquated, and inefficient.  We know better, but people don't wanna and you know...... How long ago did leadscrew handles go from having fractional inch divisions to just straight up base ten graduations?



C'mon, man.  Europe got destroyed by a couple really big wars.  A huge part of their infrastructure had to be rebuilt.  That made switching to a new system much easier.
In the US, there was still all of this manufacturing equipment on the floor and operating.  You expect all these companies to throw out billions in infrastructure in order to switch to a new measuring system, but they were just "stubborn"? Instead of a huge investment that was still paying off?
Should I throw out the lathe I have an look for another to make people in other countries think I'm smart?

The original post isn't really about which system is "smarter".  It is about sunk costs vs future costs.  My advice would be to get the SAE sets.  That old equipment is going to keep coming through.  The metric repair kits will be more readily available in the future, as will replacement parts.  The SAE parts will get more scarce as time goes on, and require repair instead of replacement.


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## Bone Head (Aug 21, 2022)

I'm pretty well stuck on the U.S. system and will be happy to stay there.  Like Winegrower I don't do conversions.  in his example i would have picked up one of each.  Whichever weighed different would tell me which to buy.  My wife would have told me I was wrong anyway....


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## Batmanacw (Aug 21, 2022)

Nutfarmer said:


> Buy the insert repair kits as you need them. In the end you will have what you need.


This is exactly what I'm going away from.

There is a concept called normalcy bias where people think everything will always be as it is now. 

Meanwhile our supply chains are a mess and my Sister's farm has equipment parts on order for months at a time. Are you positive you will be able to order what you need like you do today?

Most of the repairs I do are from Amish guys bringing in stuff they need fixed so they can finish chores. Once it was a shaft I needed to press bearings off of and make a new mounting bracket......so he could finish feeding hundreds of veal calves. If the issue was a stripped screw and I have to tell him I can fix it in a couple days when the thread inserts arrive, he will have to find someone else to do it. The calves can't wait. 

The last thing I'll say is that I'm an old school prepper. You know....a crazy person who thinks the world is going crazy and I like to have what I think I'll need later when I cannot easily visit a grocery store or hardware. I have the money to put up some peace of mind on a shelf and use as necessary. It's not that much as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Most here would question my sanity for the bolt selection I have on hand. 


If hard times come, which I believe they are getting worse, I have a great little shop and I cam market my skills directly to my community, as I do now. Look at Pakistani truck repair to see our future. They do much with almost nothing. I can put myself into a much better position.


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## Batmanacw (Aug 21, 2022)

Bone Head said:


> I'm pretty well stuck on the U.S. system and will be happy to stay there.  Like Winegrower I don't do conversions.  in his example i would have picked up one of each.  Whichever weighed different would tell me which to buy.  My wife would have told me I was wrong anyway....


The metric system and the decimal inch system are identical except for the base units.


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## great white (Aug 21, 2022)

Canada pretty much changed over in the 1980's. It was going on before that, but that's when it really took hold. Cars were a mix back then and my 1983 Mustang has both metric and standard fasteners, although more metric than standard.

What you get and how much of it more depends on where something was made more than which country is metric or not. Even then, most stuff is metric these days. Buy one of the big three cars and you're likely to find they're all metric rather than standard (or a mix).

Me? I'm in that "transitional" generation, where we started in standard and ended in metric. Really messed a lot of us up in school back then with the back and forth of learning two measurements and then trying to abandon one of them altogether. My tool box has two sections: metric and standard. I've basically got twice as many tools because there's two systems out there and you never know wheich you are going to need. Thank goodness BSW had essentially gone by the wayside before I needed to start buying tools.

Still, I'll take metric's base 10 system over some nebulous value like "how wide the king's thumb was" any day of the week.....


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## Martin W (Aug 21, 2022)

I like both systems. Use metric the most in everyday life, because all of our road signs are in Kilometers, gas is in Liters.  I still measure most things in Imperial. At work I measure in both but its just 1 click of a button and the computer program converts it either way anyways.
Metric is best because its always better when the  ladies want to know your Baloney Pony is 7.62 centimeters long than 3 inches.

Cheers


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## great white (Aug 21, 2022)

Martin W said:


> Metric is best because its always better when the  ladies want to know your Baloney Pony is 7.62 centimeters long than 3 inches.
> 
> Cheers


Eeerrrrr...I'm calling TMI here!


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## mmcmdl (Aug 21, 2022)

And your Canadian beer is sold in milliliters . Not sure how many ozs that equates to , but damn , it still tastes good !


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## great white (Aug 21, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> And your Canadian beer is sold in milliliters . Not sure how many ozs that equates to , but damn , it still tastes good !


Graduations of the bottles might be in ml, but we buy them in a different measurement: 2-4's, case, how many 2-4's, etc.....


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## markba633csi (Aug 21, 2022)

Pirates of the caribbean? Johnny Depp on the metric system?


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## 7milesup (Aug 21, 2022)

Bone Head said:


> I'm pretty well stuck on the U.S. system and will be happy to stay there.  Like Winegrower I don't do conversions.  in his example i would have picked up one of each.  Whichever weighed different would tell me which to buy.  My wife would have told me I was wrong anyway....


Do you have a smartphone?  If so, numerous conversion apps will accomplish that task in seconds.  If not, having some basic knowledge is helpful, like 25.5  25.4mm is an inch, etc.  Just like learning a new language, once one stops "converting" and just understands the system is when life gets easier.  But as you said, you are stuck in the old system, which is fine.


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## twraska (Aug 21, 2022)

Batmanacw said:


> When did metric take over for cars, tractors,  farm equipment?
> 
> I've built my bolt selection mostly based on what I could buy cheap for farm repair type work. I have bought a substantial amount of metric but definitely heavy on SAE.
> 
> ...


John Deere tractor models released in the late 80’s and early to mid 90’s went metric. CaseIH introduced the Magnum line in ‘88 and it was metric.  

A few items designed decades ago (such as some parts ofcotton picker units) are not metric but the sizes are listed in metric but use metric fasteners. And, as items are re-designed they are done so in true metric units of measure. 

Currently, short line US manufacturers are mostly “American” sizes.


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## WobblyHand (Aug 21, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Do you have a smartphone?  If so, numerous conversion apps will accomplish that task in seconds.  If not, having some basic knowledge is helpful, like 25.5mm is an inch, etc.  Just like learning a new language, once one stops "converting" and just understands the system is when life gets easier.  But as you said, you are stuck in the old system, which is fine.


Might want to change that conversion factor.  It's 25.4 mm to the inch.


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## 7milesup (Aug 21, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Might want to change that conversion factor.  It's 25.4 mm to the inch.


Oooops...!  LOL.  Hey, I haven't even had my first cup of coffee yet!


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## WobblyHand (Aug 21, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Oooops...!  LOL.  Hey, I haven't even had my first cup of coffee yet!


Forgiven


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## FOMOGO (Aug 21, 2022)

They can have my yard stick, when they pry it from my cold dead hands.  Mike



Aaron_W said:


> but the Reagan administration backed it off around 1982.


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## Firebrick43 (Aug 21, 2022)

twraska said:


> John Deere tractor models released in the late 80’s and early to mid 90’s went metric. CaseIH introduced the Magnum line in ‘88 and it was metric.
> 
> A few items designed decades ago (such as some parts ofcotton picker units) are not metric but the sizes are listed in metric but use metric fasteners. And, as items are re-designed they are done so in true metric units of measure.
> 
> Currently, short line US manufacturers are mostly “American” sizes.


And yet most of the hydraulic system/hoses/fittings were still "standard" sae orb and jic fittings.


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## Winegrower (Aug 21, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> They can have my yard stick, when they pry it from my cold dead hands.  Mike


Then they bury you 1.82 meters deep.


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## higgite (Aug 21, 2022)

When U.S. Marshall Matt Dillon goes metric, I'll go metric.

Tom


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## epanzella (Aug 21, 2022)

Not a big metric guy because I'm grew up imperial but I sometimes switch to metric when fabricating a one off part because it's more convenient than measuring 59/74 of an inch..


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## Batmanacw (Aug 21, 2022)

epanzella said:


> Not a big metric guy because I'm grew up imperial but I sometimes switch to metric when fabricating a one off part because it's more convenient than measuring 59/74 of an inch..


Uh......no. No drawings come like that. No machinist I know is multiplying fractions. We all work in decimal inches.


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 21, 2022)

You are in the business of solving customer problems, so I think it is money well spent to have both imperial and metric on hand.  The first customer that comes back after you did a repair quickly instead of sending him elsewhere will pay for that extra set when he thinks of you first and not the other guy. 

There probably isn't much being made in imperial any longer,  so having a metric set on hand makes sense, but there is plenty of imperial equipment still being used that you need that set too.  Maybe buy a basic set of each and expand as funds or necessity permit.  I’m with you on the supply chain issues in the future, I can get most of what I need next day, but when I buy something, I buy extra to have on hand because I believe things are going to get harder to find, and more expensive.


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 21, 2022)

Firebrick43 said:


> And yet most of the hydraulic system/hoses/fittings were still "standard" sae orb and jic fittings.


ISO standards use British Standard dimensions on water and hydraulic fitting in Europe, so those will be inch based until the standard gets changed, which will probably not be during any of our lifetimes.


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## Eddyde (Aug 21, 2022)

I think the we here in the US should finally adopt Football Fields as our official base unit of measurement.  Think of the excitement of cruising in the left lane at a whopping 1056 ffph instead of a dull 60 mph. Or boasting the ability to measure down to 1/3,600,000th of a Football Field instead of an imprecise, Thousandth of an Inch…


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## higgite (Aug 21, 2022)

Eddyde said:


> I think the we here in the US should finally adopt Football Fields as our official base unit of measurement.  Think of the excitement of cruising in the left lane at a whopping 1056 ffph instead of a dull 60 mph. Or boasting the ability to measure down to 1/3,600,000th of a Football Field instead of an imprecise, Thousandth of an Inch…


To heck with MPH or fph or anything per hour. I'm in for the long haul with furlongs per fortnight.

Tom


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## epanzella (Aug 21, 2022)

Batmanacw said:


> Uh......no. No drawings come like that. No machinist I know is multiplying fractions. We all work in decimal inches.


I'm not talking about a drawing. If I'm making a quick one off part and using a scale It's sometimes more convenient to divide metric  by 2 instead of using fractions.


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## ChazzC (Aug 21, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> US cars I would say by mid 90s metric dominated. 80s you find some mix of metric and standard often on the same car.


My 1986 S-10 Blazer had a mix: I ended up carrying two complete sets of sockets with me because you couldn't predict which was what until you needed to unbolt something.


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## Batmanacw (Aug 21, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> You are in the business of solving customer problems, so I think it is money well spent to have both imperial and metric on hand.  The first customer that comes back after you did a repair quickly instead of sending him elsewhere will pay for that extra set when he thinks of you first and not the other guy.
> 
> There probably isn't much being made in imperial any longer,  so having a metric set on hand makes sense, but there is plenty of imperial equipment still being used that you need that set too.  Maybe buy a basic set of each and expand as funds or necessity permit.  I’m with you on the supply chain issues in the future, I can get most of what I need next day, but when I buy something, I buy extra to have on hand because I believe things are going to get harder to find, and more expensive.



I think you nailed it nicely. If the cows don't get fed you don't go to bed. You work until it's done. Even if your machinery fails. Been there and done that.  

Missing out on a job is more than just opportunity cost but they will be less likely to use you in the future. I'm setting myself up for success. I really like being the shop with stuff on the shelf ready to go.


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 21, 2022)

Batmanacw said:


> I'm setting myself up for success. I really like being the shop with stuff on the shelf ready to go.


I think that is the best way to go, customers will appreciate having a shop they can rely on.


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## Martin W (Aug 21, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> They can have my yard stick, when they pry it from my cold dead hands.  Mike


I heard the company that makes yardsticks wonlt be making them any longer……


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## Parlo (Aug 21, 2022)

Having both systems really helps with machining standard metric sizes. For example if my lathe chuck is way out I can use 1" stock to machine a standard 25mm diameter having 0.4mm / 0.016" to play with. The same is true throught the equivalents eg 50mm is 50.8 as 2" - 75mm is 76.2 as 3" & 100mm is 101.4 as 4" and so on. So fortunately the metric equivalent standard sizes are smaller than the imperial equivalents.


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## FOMOGO (Aug 21, 2022)

Nooooooooo!!!!



Martin W said:


> I heard the company that makes yardsticks wonlt be making them any longer……


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## francist (Aug 21, 2022)

Martin W said:


> I heard the company that makes yardsticks wonlt be making them any longer……


And I should hope not -- if they made them longer they'd be a metre stick...      (groan)


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## Mitch Alsup (Aug 21, 2022)

I use both systems regularly.

Realistically, the only thing you have to remember is 25.4.

millimeters/25.4 = inches
inches×25.4 = millimeters

Since everyone has a calculator today (A.K.A., cell phone or spreadsheet) there is no problem.

The problem is that nobody wants someone else to have the power to tell them to change. This is the very definition of religion.


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## Boswell (Aug 21, 2022)

Martin W said:


> I heard the company that makes yardsticks won't be making them any longer……


this is what I would expect from @savarin.


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## Parlo (Aug 21, 2022)

Mitch Alsup said:


> I use both systems regularly.
> 
> Realistically, the only thing you have to remember is 25.4.
> 
> ...


Very true Mitch,

the problems I have are when numbers and letters are assigned to sizes such as threads and drills, are they really neccessary? Decimal inches for drill sets would be a start, metric sets are usually 1mm to 10mm in 0.1mm (0.004") increments.


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## twraska (Aug 21, 2022)

Firebrick43 said:


> And yet most of the hydraulic system/hoses/fittings were still "standard" sae orb and jic fittings.


Yep,,,, as well as tires are still using “American” rim sizes.  I’m guessing they’re that way worldwide?????


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## Winegrower (Aug 21, 2022)

My friend was describing what he wanted the other day, and said "make it 28 and a half millimeters long".   I explained that metric doesn't have halfs.   It doesn't, right?


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## Batmanacw (Aug 21, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> My friend was describing what he wanted the other day, and said "make it 28 and a half millimeters long".   I explained that metric doesn't have halfs.   It doesn't, right?


28.5mm? Nah. It'll never work.....


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## randyjaco (Aug 21, 2022)

Provincial said:


> One nation has put a man on the Moon, and brought him back safely.  The rest use the Metric system.


I would bet that if one was to look at the old NASA prints that they are all metric


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## Firebrick43 (Aug 21, 2022)

epanzella said:


> I'm not talking about a drawing. If I'm making a quick one off part and using a scale It's sometimes more convenient to divide metric  by 2 instead of using fractions.


and they make inch scales in .1 and .5 and .100 graduations as well, starrett calls them aviations scales.  Many drafting scales did as well.  So what is your point?


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## Firebrick43 (Aug 21, 2022)

randyjaco said:


> I would bet that if one was to look at the old NASA prints that they are all metric


https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17350-nasa-criticised-for-sticking-to-imperial-units

They finally did but really, where did you even pull that from?



Parlo said:


> Very true Mitch,
> 
> the problems I have are when numbers and letters are assigned to sizes such as threads and drills, are they really necessary? Decimal inches for drill sets would be a start, metric sets are usually 1mm to 10mm in 0.1mm (0.004") increments.


Why not, lot easier to remember that a F or 7 drill is needed.  Every set I have has the decimal stamped under the letter/number size.  Every manufacture will give a free tap/drill size poster




Ischgl99 said:


> ISO standards use British Standard dimensions on water and hydraulic fitting in Europe, so those will be inch based until the standard gets changed, which will probably not be during any of our lifetimes.



Yea, if I had a hundred dollars for every time I found someone had or were trying to use 1/8-27 npt in a  G(erman)1/8 port?(which is 1/8-28 British Whitworth)  If feels good/fine for 3 threads and starts getting stiff due to the thread difference, so people just put a wrench on it an tighten.

They actually make metric fittings/oring ports.  Yet the japanse and germans are so invested in british whitworth threads for fluid fittings they won't change.  Its hell to find tooling and fittings.  Ironically Caterpillar has been changing over to them before all the european and japanese companies.


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## epanzella (Aug 21, 2022)

Firebrick43 said:


> and they make inch scales in .1 and .5 and .100 graduations as well, starrett calls them aviations scales.  Many drafting scales did as well.  So what is your point?


I already made my point...twice. Maybe the 31st edition of the ENGLISH HANDBOOK will help.


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## Firebrick43 (Aug 21, 2022)

epanzella said:


> I already made my point...twice. Maybe the 31st edition of the ENGLISH HANDBOOK will help.


 But .1",  .05" or .01" graduations are  not a fractions and easy to divide by 2.


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 21, 2022)

Firebrick43 said:


> https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17350-nasa-criticised-for-sticking-to-imperial-units
> 
> They finally did but really, where did you even pull that from?
> 
> ...



I worked for a couple German manufacturers as well as with many other equipment manufacturers, the only metric fittings I saw were for the hose to the fitting, the fitting to the equipment was always G or R type fittings, and the R type was maybe 5% of the time.  It would be nice if they switched to metric threads so common taps could be used, but I think there is so much equipment out there with the G/R type fittings that it will be slow to be adapted.  NPT fittings work close enough in some applications, but if you want any pressure rating, you need the proper fittings and threads.  I’ve spent plenty of time tracing leaks that came from the incorrect fittings or threads being used. 

I’m surprised you find tooling and fittings difficult to find, McMaster-Carr and Swagelok have plenty of offerings for fittings, and Whitworth tooling doesn’t seem difficult to find.  The larger sizes are not as common but I never had an issue getting what I needed for standard pipe sizes.


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## savarin (Aug 21, 2022)

I cut a bunch of slots in the rod clamps I made that were 5/127ths" wide


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## NCjeeper (Aug 21, 2022)




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## Jeff.64 (Aug 22, 2022)

The only countries that use inch are USA, Myanmar (Burma) and Liberia.  I think there is an interstate in Arizona or Nevada that still uses metric only signage.  If we used metric, we would have had better social distancing i.e., we used 2 yards (6 feet) and the rest of the world used 2 meters, a whole 6.74 more inches   On an inspection drawing I set one of the dimensions in cubits and waited patiently for someone to question the drawing.  No one said a word.  So I took the second drawing with all inch dimensions to inspection and inquired about the one with the cubit dimension.  They didn't want to ask because they did not know what a cubit was.  So much for my fun at work.  Over the next few days, I casually surveyed my coworkers and found almost no one had ever heard of a cubit  I guess I should have used angstroms.

I guess if you work on newer equipment, leaning toward metric might be good.  But if you do a lot of work on vintage equipment, heavier stock on SAE might make more sense.


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## Batmanacw (Aug 22, 2022)

Jeff.64 said:


> The only countries that use inch are USA, Myanmar (Burma) and Liberia.  I think there is an interstate in Arizona or Nevada that still uses metric only signage.  If we used metric, we would have had better social distancing i.e., we used 2 yards (6 feet) and the rest of the world used 2 meters, a whole 6.74 more inches   On an inspection drawing I set one of the dimensions in cubits and waited patiently for someone to question the drawing.  No one said a word.  So I took the second drawing with all inch dimensions to inspection and inquired about the one with the cubit dimension.  They didn't want to ask because they did not know what a cubit was.  So much for my fun at work.  Over the next few days, I casually surveyed my coworkers and found almost no one had ever heard of a cubit  I guess I should have used angstroms.
> 
> I guess if you work on newer equipment, leaning toward metric might be good.  But if you do a lot of work on vintage equipment, heavier stock on SAE might make more sense.


Your conclusion matches mine pretty closely. I really don't know what will come in. I'm just going to bite the bullet and get plenty of both. 

The SAE coarse assortment will be in today and the 3-8mm assortment will be in Tuesday. Next pay I'll buy the 8-16mm set and the SAE fine set. 

Beyond the sizes in the assortments I'll just plan on ordering as needed.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 22, 2022)

Jeff.64 said:


> The only countries that use inch are USA, Myanmar (Burma) and Liberia.



That is not true, that information came from a poorly researched article and is constantly re-reported by metric propagandists. 

They ignored countries like the UK because they are "officially" metric yet like the US still use a lot of Imperial (correct term in the UK) measurements, like the USA uses US Customary unit (not Imperial they are different systems with much in common). Funny thing is the USA is also officially metric, US Customary system has been defined by the metric system meter and kilogram since 1893. The UK did not define Imperial measurement with the metric system until 1985.


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## atunguyd (Aug 22, 2022)

twraska said:


> Yep,,,, as well as tires are still using “American” rim sizes. I’m guessing they’re that way worldwide?????


Yep, same with screens. Mobile phones, PC's and TVs all measure and market their screen sizes in inches worldwide. 

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


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## Jake M (Aug 22, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> The US left metric conversion to what is practical, rather than a forced transition as in Australia and India. For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, most everything that actually matters has mostly converted to metric. The holdouts are either strong personal preference, or awkward to convert.
> 
> Honestly where do you find heavy commercial use of US Customary measurement outside of building construction and land survey?  Companies are welcome to sell metric bathroom scales, and meter sticks but they don't sell well in the US when people are provided with options.
> 
> ...



I won't disagree with this.  I'll be the first to say that I can be a little sarcastic about it.  You've gotta give me this though.  It's been a hundred and fifty years.....  One hundred and fifty years, and most of the American public still can't speak metric.  That is a fail by any metric.  

I still work on trucks, truck bodies, and landscape and construction equipment of all sizes and descriptions, that are metric, metric with inch, inch with metric, or full on no metric anything.  It's a rare exception for any of it to be over ten or twelve years old.  We are getting there, slowly....


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## Aaron_W (Aug 22, 2022)

Jake M said:


> I won't disagree with this.  I'll be the first to say that I can be a little sarcastic about it.  You've gotta give me this though.  It's been a hundred and fifty years.....  One hundred and fifty years, and most of the American public still can't speak metric.  That is a fail by any metric.
> 
> I still work on trucks, truck bodies, and landscape and construction equipment of all sizes and descriptions, that are metric, metric with inch, inch with metric, or full on no metric anything.  It's a rare exception for any of it to be over ten or twelve years old.  We are getting there, slowly....



I will not argue the the intelligence of the general public, as that is a losing proposition. 

I was in second grade in 1976 so I was prep'd from a young age for the impending metrification of the USA. The ball was dropped along the way, but having lived through the past 50 years I have seen metric use increase in the US by leaps and bounds. 
Since I was a kid my parents owned VWs and Toyotas. Owning an import car in the 1970s was a challenge, not only because of general unfamiliarity with the brand, but some smaller shops didn't even have metric tools. Not a problem these days.

The US went after the low hanging fruit, science, medicine, aircraft, automobiles. I live in a 110 year old house so I'm hoping we don't see a major shift to metric building materials before I'm too old to do my own repairs.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 22, 2022)

I lived in Europe for 11 years as an adult.  I got so quick at converting between systems that it became transparent to me (minus a few decimals, but close enough like hand grenades and horseshoes).  Plus I do my job in SI units (for the chemistry) and standard units (for the engineering).  In the shop, I just don't care.  I have English and metric measuring tools, English and metric wrenches, on and on... okay, not as many metric drills, but like I said, I really don't care unless I'm elbow deep in grease and feet in the air on a vehicle and I have the wrong wrench in my hand.  Then I cuss the measuring system, believe it!


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## Aaron_W (Aug 22, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> I lived in Europe for 11 years as an adult.  I got so quick at converting between systems that it became transparent to me (minus a few decimals, but close enough like hand grenades and horseshoes).  Plus I do my job in SI units (for the chemistry) and standard units (for the engineering).  In the shop, I just don't care.  I have English and metric measuring tools, English and metric wrenches, on and on... okay, not as many metric drills, but like I said, I really don't care unless I'm elbow deep in grease and feet in the air on a vehicle and I have the wrong wrench in my hand.  Then I cuss the measuring system, believe it!



Yep, if you use the systems you learn them. As a firefighter I could be on a medical aid and have to figure out a medication dosage in mg/kg (converting from the patient weight, usually provided in pounds), next call I could be running the pump, figuring out gallons per minute, and psi needed to overcome elevation and friction loss in feet, or the incident commander figuring out the current fire size in acres and how many more chains of line were required until we had a line around the fire.


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## Boswell (Aug 22, 2022)

I use Decimal Imperial for the Mill and Lathe and Metric for the 3D Printer.  No difference to me in one being easier or harder. I do have to slow down a bit when I have a part that needs operations on both the 3D printer and the Mill/Lathe as that is when I need to do a conversion.


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## Firebrick43 (Aug 22, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> I worked for a couple German manufacturers as well as with many other equipment manufacturers, the only metric fittings I saw were for the hose to the fitting, the fitting to the equipment was always G or R type fittings, and the R type was maybe 5% of the time.  It would be nice if they switched to metric threads so common taps could be used, but I think there is so much equipment out there with the G/R type fittings that it will be slow to be adapted.  NPT fittings work close enough in some applications, but if you want any pressure rating, you need the proper fittings and threads.  I’ve spent plenty of time tracing leaks that came from the incorrect fittings or threads being used.
> 
> I’m surprised you find tooling and fittings difficult to find, McMaster-Carr and Swagelok have plenty of offerings for fittings, and Whitworth tooling doesn’t seem difficult to find.  The larger sizes are not as common but I never had an issue getting what I needed for standard pipe sizes.


The whitworth tooling is not hard to find.   What I am talking about is actual metric fittings with metric threads, not whitworth threads like german G series.  The port face/step drills were the tough ones to find, not the taps.  

The ports are identified by a ring around the port


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## higgite (Aug 22, 2022)

The American general public will accept metric as our national system of measurement right after we accept soccer as our national pasttime.

Tom


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## pontiac428 (Aug 23, 2022)

And here I was thinking G-thread was BSPP and not whitworth all along.  I'll be dipped, it's a 55 degree thread, so whitworth it be.  And BSPP.  It's both.  They're the same!


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## Bone Head (Aug 23, 2022)

Metric, sae, metric, sae...look at your ratchets, breaker bars, socket sets.  Regardless if your sockets are sae or metric, they're all 1/4" drive, 3/8" drive, 1/2" drive...


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 23, 2022)

Firebrick43 said:


> The whitworth tooling is not hard to find.   What I am talking about is actual metric fittings with metric threads, not whitworth threads like german G series.  The port face/step drills were the tough ones to find, not the taps.
> 
> The ports are identified by a ring around the port


Parker Hannafin sells the porting tools for that specification.  Other fitting manufacturers probably sell them too.  I thought Swagelok had them when I looked many years ago, but don’t see them in their catalog, so not sure if my memory is correct.


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## great white (Aug 23, 2022)

I think guys are getting too hung up on metric vs standard/imperial argument.

It's not about which is better, it's about *standardization*.

You only have to google "gimli glider" to get an example of what I'm talking about.

The helo I used to fly was the EH101. A UK/Italy built aircraft. When we ordered them, they said they could convert the dispalys from metric to standard, but it woudl cost XX millions to do it (total software re-write). We said no thanks and had it delivered in metric. Now, avaiation is mostly carried out in standard measurements, but in the aircraft and operating it, we only needed to know the number a system should display and we generally didn't care what the measurement was as long as it was still in the "acceptable" range. 5,000 kgs, could have been 5000 lbs or 5000 chickens fro all we cared. As long as 5,000 was the number we needed, the rest doesn't matter. I know when I was balancing fuel load, I didn't care if it was displaying lbs or kgs in the cockpit, just that the tank level number were matched for proper C of G. When I did pay attention to the units was when we woudl take on fuel from a source, had to make sure we got what ewe asked for. But then again, the cockpit gauge was the final go/nogo criteria, so we didn't go if the number wasn't what we needed. Just recall the fuel truck and top it off.

Doesn't matter what system you use, just that you know and understand the system you are using and that OTHERS you are interacting with are using the same system....or know that your measurements are not the same measurements they are using.

USA is a big country (both population and ecnomy), but compared to world population, it's pretty small. The world, for the most part, uses metric. So who should give up what and who should standardize to what system?


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## Parlo (Aug 23, 2022)

Volumes can be tricky.
In the UK to remember the weight of water we used the rhyme -  "a pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter". This is because a gallon weighs ten pounds and a pint is 20 ounces.
In the US a gallon weighs 8 pounds because a pint has only 16 ounces.
This caused a bit of confusion with my car MPG display that had to be changed to UK gallons for the correct MPG reading.


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## Jeff.64 (Aug 23, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> That is not true, that information came from a poorly researched article and is constantly re-reported by metric propagandists.
> 
> They ignored countries like the UK because they are "officially" metric yet like the US still use a lot of Imperial (correct term in the UK) measurements, like the USA uses US Customary unit (not Imperial they are different systems with much in common). Funny thing is the USA is also officially metric, US Customary system has been defined by the metric system meter and kilogram since 1893. The UK did not define Imperial measurement with the metric system until 1985.


Thanks for the correction.  I guess repeating what you heard from "reliable people" over the years can get you into trouble.  I just did a search for "countries that use imperial system" and was unable to find the contrary info you of which you write.  If you could post a link or two, that would be great.  I know some people at work with whom I'd like to share the information.  I really hate the idea of having propaganda in place of facts in my head.  I think someone of note said something like "It's not the things you don't that get you into trouble, it's the things that you know for sure that ain't so that do"  Twain?  Thanks again.


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## ChazzC (Aug 23, 2022)

Boswell said:


> I use Decimal Imperial for the Mill and Lathe and Metric for the 3D Printer.  No difference to me in one being easier or harder. I do have to slow down a bit when I have a part that needs operations on both the 3D printer and the Mill/Lathe as that is when I need to do a conversion.


The “system” I use for my designs depends on both the raw materials being used and the end use of the item. In the U.S., many raw materials come in US/SAE/Imperial dimensions - think flat, rectangular & angle stock. Overall finished length will be in fractional inches, unless it’s critical. Round bar is available in both inches and mm, so I buy whatever will work. If I’m making something for use with a metric machine, I’ll use metric dimensions and hardware; otherwise I’ll use what makes sense.

Yes, this leads to mixed systems within a part (1” x 1-1/2” x 1/8” x 7”angle with 2, #7 through holes spaced 345mm on center), but that’s what makes it fun.

Oh, while I have metric drill bits & end mills, most of the time I use fractional end mills & drill bits from my “standard” 115 piece set as replacements are more readily available and cost less, reserving the metric tooling for those applications that require their use.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 23, 2022)

Jeff.64 said:


> Thanks for the correction.  I guess repeating what you heard from "reliable people" over the years can get you into trouble.  I just did a search for "countries that use imperial system" and was unable to find the contrary info you of which you write.  If you could post a link or two, that would be great.  I know some people at work with whom I'd like to share the information.  I really hate the idea of having propaganda in place of facts in my head.  I think someone of note said something like "It's not the things you don't that get you into trouble, it's the things that you know for sure that ain't so that do"  Twain?  Thanks again.



Well the Wikipedia page on the Imperial system is a start, it provides a history of the move to metric in the countries that used the Imperial system. Most of the ex British colonies continue to use a mix of metric and other, India, Australia and New Zealand having made the most progress towards full metrication.

Imperial units wikipedia

Contrary to popular belief the US does not use the Imperial system, it is a special snowflake and uses US customary units, which are similar but have different values. For example the US gallon is smaller than an Imperial gallon. Because of their proximity to the US, Canada and many Caribbean nations use a mix of both Imperial and US Customary units poor buggers. 

There is also the issue of "official" vs common usage, the USA in fact was an early adopter of the metric system passing a law in 1866 making the metric system legal for use in commerce and in 1893, US Customary Units were redefined utilizing the metric system as the base (an inch is defined as being 25.4mm, that is not simply a conversion). So from a legal sense the US is very much a metric nation, but in common use much less so.


The problem with the only 3 countries are not metric thing is it was done as a got ya piece. Like the old have you stopped beating you wife gag.

The authors defined "not metric" in a narrow way that made their statement true, but misleading. You need not look any farther than a highway sign to see this, as UK highways are still signed in miles. 





I am not a metric hater but I don't like deception, and the "only 3 countries" thing irritates the crap out of me. Not surprisingly in a country founded on "you are not my mother" the government has taken a soft approach to conversion.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 23, 2022)

The problem with conversion is simple.  Americans would need to recalibrate their minds.  That's the camel through the eye of the needle thing.  Rigid thinking is what is currently being nurtured in society.  An undertaking like this, a unit system swap, is small potatoes compared to the kind of flexibility we'd need to find in ourselves with order to survive the global crisis that is only faintly beginning to be palpable to us now.  The metric system was a social experiment that failed because we weren't limber enough in our perceptions to see it through.  In regards to collapse, even a little pandemic, and we're buried nose down in the wet sliding bank, augured into the mud up to our wings, and the river's rising.


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## Jeff.64 (Aug 23, 2022)

Yeah, but 1 ml of water has a mass of 1 g and a volume of 1 cc at standard temperature and pressure.  How cool is that?  Well, it's what I thought when learning this in HS chemistry.  I too, can remember in middle school the big push to metric.  I wish it worked out.  I can "see" most small things in my head in metric, but I find myself dividing by 25 most of the time.  The meter being originally based on the distance from the North Pole to the Equator.  I forget how many million.  Just makes sense... right?  Just think of how much more money we can spend on an another gadget if we didn't need to buy yet another metric tap and drill if everything were already metric.  Not to mention all of those broken 6-32 taps.  They should make 6-32 fasteners illegal.  Full disclosure, I've never actually broken a 6-32 tap, but I've broken a few 4-40's in my youth.  First sign of getting hard to turn, I get a sharp one and relegate the dull one to that pile of HHS that I plan on re-purposing some time before I die.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 23, 2022)

Jeff.64 said:


> Yeah, but 1 ml of water has a mass of 1 g and a volume of 1 cc at standard temperature and pressure.  How cool is that?  Well, it's what I thought when learning this in HS chemistry.  I too, can remember in middle school the big push to metric.  I wish it worked out.  I can "see" most small things in my head in metric, but I find myself dividing by 25 most of the time.  The meter being originally based on the distance from the North Pole to the Equator.  I forget how many million.  Just makes sense... right?  Just think of how much more money we can spend on an another gadget if we didn't need to buy yet another metric tap and drill if everything were already metric.  Not to mention all of those broken 6-32 taps.  They should make 6-32 fasteners illegal.  Full disclosure, I've never actually broken a 6-32 tap, but I've broken a few 4-40's in my youth.  First sign of getting hard to turn, I get a sharp one and relegate the dull one to that pile of HHS that I plan on re-purposing some time before I die.



What I don't get is metric vs USC / Imperial is just not an actual thing for most people, it is just noise. If you own a car less than 25 years old, you don't need an SAE tool set to work on it. 

Even if "they" mandated metric in 1976, you would still need an SAE tool set to work on your 1965 Mustang, but it would probably be harder to find one.

I have no issues finding metric tools and parts, and SAE are readily available. The argument for full metric is rarely truly an issue of making one's life easier and more about I don't like it so everybody should bend to my will to please me. I put it at the same level as this is America speak American.


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## Provincial (Aug 23, 2022)

Jeff.64 said:


> Yeah, but 1 ml of water has a mass of 1 g and a volume of 1 cc at standard temperature and pressure.  How cool is that?  Well, it's what I thought when learning this in HS chemistry.  I too, can remember in middle school the big push to metric.  I wish it worked out.  I can "see" most small things in my head in metric, but I find myself dividing by 25 most of the time.  The meter being originally based on the distance from the North Pole to the Equator.  I forget how many million.  Just makes sense... right?  Just think of how much more money we can spend on an another gadget if we didn't need to buy yet another metric tap and drill if everything were already metric.  Not to mention all of those broken 6-32 taps.  They should make 6-32 fasteners illegal.  Full disclosure, I've never actually broken a 6-32 tap, but I've broken a few 4-40's in my youth.  First sign of getting hard to turn, I get a sharp one and relegate the dull one to that pile of HHS that I plan on re-purposing some time before I die.


If you think a 6-32 tap is weak, you should take the 1/4-20 tap out from your set and compare how little material is left in the minor diameter after the threads and flutes are removed!  I find these taps to be far more fragile than the 6-32, because they are cutting a much larger amount of material in proportion to the strength of the tap.


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## higgite (Aug 24, 2022)

great white said:


> I think guys are getting too hung up on metric vs standard/imperial argument.
> 
> It's not about which is better, it's about *standardization*.


I beg to differ. The Imperial community was standardized, as was the metric community, until someone thought globalization was a good idea.

Tom


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## Jeff.64 (Aug 24, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> What I don't get is metric vs USC / Imperial is just not an actual thing for most people, it is just noise. If you own a car less than 25 years old, you don't need an SAE tool set to work on it.
> 
> Even if "they" mandated metric in 1976, you would still need an SAE tool set to work on your 1965 Mustang, but it would probably be harder to find one.
> 
> I have no issues finding metric tools and parts, and SAE are readily available. The argument for full metric is rarely truly an issue of making one's life easier and more about I don't like it so everybody should bend to my will to please me. I put it at the same level as this is America speak American.


My round about point and attempt at levity, was that if we switched to metric in around 1976, I would only have to multiply by 25 in rare instances when coming across an antique because I would be thinking in metric like the rest of the world.  If we switched today, I would absolutely hate it.  Because I'll always be thinking in inch because I'm at the end of life's journey vs the beginning.  If you are in the middle it would also suck because you would have inch thinking crystallized in your mind.  The other point is cost.  20 years ago it was not financially comfortable for me to have both inch and metric of everything.  But fortunately for me at this time, it is not a problem.  It's kind like the Robertson vs Phillips deck screw thing.  So, snap off the head or cam out the head.  I lean towards the Robertson because it usually snaps off below the surface where you can't see it and it's no big deal to drive in another near by after you figured out you left the clutch in drill mode.


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## Jeff.64 (Aug 24, 2022)

Provincial said:


> If you think a 6-32 tap is weak, you should take the 1/4-20 tap out from your set and compare how little material is left in the minor diameter after the threads and flutes are removed!  I find these taps to be far more fragile than the 6-32, because they are cutting a much larger amount of material in proportion to the strength of the tap.


Years ago I read a semi popular book called Machine Shop Trade Secrets by James A. Harvey.  The 6-32 crack was a tongue in cheek homage to that work.  He does a little ranting about the evils of 6-32 fasteners in the book.  I should have referenced that in my post.  As you can tell, writing is not my strong suit  And, thank goodness for spell check!


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## Jeff.64 (Aug 24, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Well the Wikipedia page on the Imperial system is a start, it provides a history of the move to metric in the countries that used the Imperial system. Most of the ex British colonies continue to use a mix of metric and other, India, Australia and New Zealand having made the most progress towards full metrication.
> 
> Imperial units wikipedia
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Wiki link.  I had a M.E. coworker around 10 years ago who was born in Burma, moved to the USA for most of his education.  From him I learned of the three countries still using inch vs metric.  I do enjoy some of the old units of measurements.  Is it just me, or would it be fun to go to the distributor and order a hogshead of beer?


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## Aaron_W (Aug 24, 2022)

Jeff.64 said:


> My round about point and attempt at levity, was that if we switched to metric in around 1976, I would only have to multiply by 25 in rare instances when coming across an antique because I would be thinking in metric like the rest of the world.  If we switched today, I would absolutely hate it.  Because I'll always be thinking in inch because I'm at the end of life's journey vs the beginning.  If you are in the middle it would also suck because you would have inch thinking crystallized in your mind.  The other point is cost.  20 years ago it was not financially comfortable for me to have both inch and metric of everything.  But fortunately for me at this time, it is not a problem.  It's kind like the Robertson vs Phillips deck screw thing.  So, snap off the head or cam out the head.  I lean towards the Robertson because it usually snaps off below the surface where you can't see it and it's no big deal to drive in another near by after you figured out you left the clutch in drill mode.



No I get that, this is just a touchy subject for me because too many people basically take the view that not mandating metric is a (minor) inconvenience to them, and they would prefer that those who still have a need for USC have an inconvenience mandated on them instead.

Like I said I equate it to the English only activists. If somebody chooses to only speak French, Russian, Spanish etc in the US it is a far bigger inconvenience for them than the people around them. I fully support people having the right to make their lives more difficult. 


I found some articles on the only 3 non-metric countries myth, it is from the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which should be accepted as a reputable source by all but the most hardline "inches are stupid" people. It is older than I remembered, it started earlier than I remembered. Typical misrepresentation of facts that is so popular.

https://www.nist.gov/pml/owm/metrication-frequently-asked-questions-faqs

https://www.nist.gov/blogs/taking-measure/busting-myths-about-metric-system


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## Jeff.64 (Aug 24, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> No I get that, this is just a touchy subject for me because too many people basically take the view that not mandating metric is a (minor) inconvenience to them, and they would prefer that those who still have a need for USC have an inconvenience mandated on them instead.
> 
> Like I said I equate it to the English only activists. If somebody chooses to only speak French, Russian, Spanish etc in the US it is a far bigger inconvenience for them than the people around them. I fully support people having the right to make their lives more difficult.
> 
> ...


I've never heard the word "metrication."  It kinda sounds like something one should do in private
The Ramones singing 20 20 24 hours to go, I wanna be metricated. Just popped into my head.
Don't tell anyone, but yes, I still say Centigrade... Crap, the whole world can see this, can't they?? (home brew rhetorical question mark)  
Man, first it was ozone layer hole and now I find out we're stuck in the metric continuum!   Won't sleep well tonight that's for sure. 
Just kidding around.  
Seriously, thank-you for the great links.


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## great white (Aug 24, 2022)

higgite said:


> I beg to differ. The Imperial community was standardized, as was the metric community, until someone thought globalization was a good idea.
> 
> Tom


No worries, I not only accept differences of opinion, I encourage them. As long as it's a healthy debate supported by verifiable facts that is. An unsupported opinion is just that, unsupported and consequently, lacking validity.

But yes, we do differ. Standardization, as I am using it, is global. Countries don't only sell products within their borders, the must export if they want to increase their economies. Everyone working to the same standard facilitates that business model.

As far as globalization being a good idea or not......that's a discussion better had somewhere besides this forum.....


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 24, 2022)

great white said:


> Standardization, as I am using it, is global. Countries don't only sell products within their borders, the must export if they want to increase their economies. Everyone working to the same standard facilitates that business model.


That is very true.  I lived in Germany for a bit while in training at my company’s factory, some of the arguments made by the imperial proponents are exactly the same my German friends made about metric.  One friend put it very simple, if I buy an American product, I also need to buy a new wrench set.  While not entirely true, the impression over there was all American products are made with Imperial fasteners and components and they would need new wrenches to work on it, and not be able to find replacement parts.  Some things they would make exceptions for, like a Harley, because it’s a Harley, but for most things, it took a lot of convincing to get someone to buy it because of the perception it was not made to their standards.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 24, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> That is very true.  I lived in Germany for a bit while in training at my company’s factory, some of the arguments made by the imperial proponents are exactly the same my German friends made about metric.  One friend put it very simple, if I buy an American product, I also need to buy a new wrench set.  While not entirely true, the impression over there was all American products are made with Imperial fasteners and components and they would need new wrenches to work on it, and not be able to find replacement parts.  Some things they would make exceptions for, like a Harley, because it’s a Harley, but for most things, it took a lot of convincing to get someone to buy it because of the perception it was not made to their standards.



They probably shouldn't buy anything Japanese either. You know that JIS / DIN thing.


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 24, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> They probably shouldn't buy anything Japanese either. You know that JIS / DIN thing.


LOL. The metric wrenches and sockets will still fit, they would just need new screwdrivers.


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## higgite (Aug 24, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> LOL. The metric wrenches and sockets will still fit, they would just need new screwdrivers.


I thought vodka and orange juice was already pretty universal. But, speaking of new screwdrivers, I'll have another. 

Tom


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## ChazzC (Aug 24, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> LOL. The metric wrenches and sockets will still fit, they would just need new screwdrivers.


Trust me: after some research last year I got a set of JIS screwdrivers: they make s world if difference.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 24, 2022)

Ischgl99 said:


> LOL. The metric wrenches and sockets will still fit, they would just need new screwdrivers.



True they wouldn't need new wrenches but maybe a few additions if their set skips as many do..
Aren't the heads of bolts different sizes, I think JIS a bit smaller for same size shaft? Are the threads the same between them?

I get the metric system is easy, but metric standards seem to be far from standard and somewhat confusing. USC / Imperial at least have the benefit of (mostly) being internally consistent even if those standards are derived from weird heritage foundations like the size of a kings foot.

It's like the French offered this coherent structure and then every adaptor did their best to make their make version unique, which kind of defeats the point of a unified coherent system of weights and measure.


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 24, 2022)

ChazzC said:


> Trust me: after some research last year I got a set of JIS screwdrivers: they make s world if difference.


Oh I know!  I have a lot of camera equipment and I wouldn't even think of using a standard Phillips screw driver on those screws.


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## Provincial (Aug 24, 2022)

ChazzC said:


> Trust me: after some research last year I got a set of JIS screwdrivers: they make s world if difference.


If you grind just a little off the tip of a Phillips screwdriver, it will work acceptably well on JIS screws.  Not as well as a real JIS driver, but well enough.

It also reduces the tendency to back out of Phillips screws!


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## Ischgl99 (Aug 24, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> True they wouldn't need new wrenches but maybe a few additions if their set skips as many do..
> Aren't the heads of bolts different sizes, I think JIS a bit smaller for same size shaft? Are the threads the same between them?
> 
> I get the metric system is easy, but metric standards seem to be far from standard and somewhat confusing. USC / Imperial at least have the benefit of (mostly) being internally consistent even if those standards are derived from weird heritage foundations like the size of a kings foot.
> ...


Yes, some of the head sizes are a bit different, but I believe most metric wrench sets have most if not all of those sizes included.  At least mine does.

Metric is a generic term, there are many different standards that use metric dimensions.  DIN/ISO are the most common specifications in Europe, and there are several different thread forms that are covered by different standards in the ISO specifications, but when someone says metric threads, they are usually referring to the threads that are similar to standard screw threads.  The biggest difference is Germany created DIN standards for just about everything so that there was no question what was meant when a standard was specified on a drawing.  So, they have a spec for hex head screws, Allen head screws, set screws, etc.  It gets confusing until you realize those specifications are really just saying how big the head needs to be, how much of the bolt is threaded, etc.  You will see in some parts manuals for industrial equipment where the DIN/ISO specification is stated and all that is saying is what kind of screw should be used.  If you look on the McMaster-Carr website, you will see the specifications in the descriptions of the various metric screws and bolts.

We have Imperial based standards here as well, but Germany took that to the next level.  Most of those DIN standards became ISO standards once Europe unified and now pretty much everyone over there uses them.  Many countries created their own standards, and some just stole the standard from Europe and renamed it, ie India.  All of the Indian standards I have found are direct copies of DIN/ISO with maybe slight variations.  

If you want your head to explode, take a look at this website of all the different thread types, some of these are metric threads, just not what we think of when we say metric, and some of them are Imperial.



			International Thread Standards


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