# PM 949 or 950?



## Sdmf5150 (Sep 25, 2017)

I am trying to decide whether to get the 949tv that is completely made in Taiwan, or the 950tv that has a Taiwan head and China made frame and is also outfitted with a dro,work lamp and power feed.  Is it worth the extra 1k not including a dro and power feed to have the Taiwan made frame? Decisions decisions!


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## scott55 (Sep 25, 2017)

I made this same decision recently.  I went with the 949 ts 3-phase for $5,839.00 which is actually $160 cheaper than the 950 and added a Fuji VFD for $228.00 which put me at only $68 more for the 949 and still gave me a variable speed machine.
Of course that is still without the DRO and Powerfeed, but you can easily add those later, but you can not change the base machine quite so easily.
I went ahead and added the upgraded DRO and powerfeed off the bat.
I can say that my first impressions of the 949 are VERY positive, of course I have never seen a 950 so I cannot make a comparison.
Just my thought proccess please take it for what it is worth, and since I am pretty much a noob don't put too much faith in my opinion.
I cannot tell you you exactly how it worked out since I just got the mill to the house last night, but hopefully will know soon.


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## navav2002 (Sep 25, 2017)

I have a PM 932M and it's a very good machine and is serving me well, however it is made in China and you can tell...For example: drilling a hole in the casting in order to mount something is an experience!! The metal is "dust" which is pretty weird....The fit and finish is a tad bit on the crude side and there is a lot of bondo used on the body...I'm getting some hairline cracking and chipping in various places...No big deal just something I've noticed, I could easily touch it up and has nothing to do with function...

Overall I like my Chinese  PM 932M a lot, it has done everything I've asked it too do. It's what I could afford.

However my next machine will be 100% Taiwan...

Just my .02...


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## [X]Outlaw (Sep 26, 2017)

I was face with the same decision last year. Seeing that this machine would be a life time investment I opted to go for the 949TS (3Ph with a Hitachi VFD) as it is 100% made in Taiwan. and a Hitachi VFD. I never saw a 950 but I am very pleased with my 949, the fit and finish on it is very very nice! I did get powerfeeds and a DRO for it but opted to install them myself to save some cash, which went into some tooling.


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## Eddyde (Sep 26, 2017)

navav2002 said:


> For example: drilling a hole in the casting in order to mount something is an experience!! The metal is "dust" which is pretty weird


That's normal for cast iron, fine "powdery" chips, not helical like steel.

As for the OP's dilemma: I have a Taiwanese (made in 1987) mill and think it's awesome, not a hint of crappy anywhere on it. Easily, as good as a Bridgeport.


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## Sdmf5150 (Sep 26, 2017)

Thanks for the input guys. Yeah I was really concerned about the quality of the castings. I'll probably go with the 949. Not being able to see the machines in person makes the decision tougher....
Not that the 950 isn't a great machine, I guess it's just a piece of mind thing


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## wrmiller (Sep 26, 2017)

Wrestled with this a while back. After talking to Matt and finding out the iron used is a different/better grade on the Taiwanese machine it became a no-brainer. I could add/upgrade accessories later, but I couldn't upgrade the main pieces like the base, knee, table, or the head later without basically replacing the machine, so I decided to get the best I could afford and upgrade as money became available.

In hindsight I'm very glad with the decisions I made.


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## mikey553 (Oct 11, 2017)

If I had to make this decision today, I would go with 949. I have my doubts that castings are made in Taiwan. Casting quality is very important, but they (and probably the machining as well) are outsourced from China. How would you know the difference?

5 years ago I bought a 949 PM mill, which, I was told by Matt, was made in Taiwan. Only recently I have found a piece of old newspaper inside the ram internal cavity. Whoever assembled this machine left that piece inside. My Chinese co-worker easily identified the paper as being Chinese with 100% certainty. It even had a proper date and name of the Chinese province on it. So now I know that Matt lied to me. By the way Chinese do not remove the casting sand from the castings - this may be one way to tell...

As much as casting and machining quality is important, the assembly beats them all. Bad assembly culture destroys the benefits of having good design and good parts. If the pin does not go in the hole, take a bigger hammer and drive it in. If the screw does not go all the way in the hole, cut it off - it must be too long. You never check the machine functions after you put it together, after all you not paid to do that. These are just a few examples of poor assembly habits and I have seen way more than that.

I am not sure if 949 mill from "Taiwan" today is any better that my 5 year old "Taiwan" mill. You may only find this out upon complete dis-assembly and inspection of every part. I did just that and I know I would never buy this machine again given a choice. For this kind of money there are plenty of good quality used industrial machines you can buy. At the very least these machines have a proper design and were made to serve the industry and not just fool those stupid American customers. You think you are not qualified enough to take such a huge risk to buy a used machine without any warranty? I know, I've been in the same boat. Please do not be afraid!


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## wrmiller (Oct 11, 2017)

I'm one of those "stupid American customers" who bought a PM935 from Matt a little over a year ago. I also have one of his Taiwan lathes, the 1340GT. Does that make me double stupid? Hardly.

No sand in the base casting, nor anywhere else. Quality on this machine is very good, as is the quality of the lathe.

You want to come on a public forum and call someone a liar, you should back this up with documented proof. Otherwise, can it. I personally don't know you, so therefore your word holds no weight with me one way or another, nor I suspect with anyone else who has two or more functioning neurons to rub together.

I'm not defending Matt, as he's a big boy and can defend himself.  If you have a beef with him, go to his business and do it face-to-face. You're close enough. Or take legal action.

And FYI, you might want to check the forum rules about personally attacking someone here.


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## Eddyde (Oct 11, 2017)

mikey553 said:


> I So now I know that Matt lied to me.


There could be several plausible reasons for the presence of the newspaper other than the casting was made in China. Could have been recycled packing material or maybe the paper of a Chinese person working in Taiwan. Even if was made in China, the Taiwanese manufacturer could have been misrepresenting the "pedigree" of their product to their customers. I have no issue with your sharing your story for what it is. However, I think it's wrong to accuse someone of lying when you don't have any solid proof that they lied.


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## darkzero (Oct 11, 2017)

mikey553 said:


> 5 years ago I bought a 949 PM mill, which, I was told by Matt, was made in Taiwan. Only recently I have found a piece of old newspaper inside the ram internal cavity. Whoever assembled this machine left that piece inside. My Chinese co-worker easily identified the paper as being Chinese with 100% certainty. It even had a proper date and name of the Chinese province on it. So now I know that Matt lied to me. By the way Chinese do not remove the casting sand from the castings - this may be one way to tell...



A strong accusation you have made there. A paper being 100% Chinese? You do know Taiwanese people are still Chinese whether they like it or not? Taiwanese may sound different than Mandrin or Cantonese but they still use Chinese characters to read & write. For something to be stated as Made in Taiwan or USA, it doesn't need to be 100% made in that country. Different countries have different standards for that.

Now did Matt tell you the machines was 100% made in Taiwan? Did you speak to him about it after your findings? As you can tell Matt is very well respected around & not just here, there's a reason for that. Please don't go calling out names unless you have a strong valid reason to do so. It's not acceptable here. A simple piece of paper doesn't mean anything.


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## qualitymachinetools (Oct 17, 2017)

I am lost on that one above. If we list on our site or tell someone where a machine is made, that is where it is made. (Besides the fact that we arrange all of the shipments and have great people who we work with in Taiwan)    I welcome anyone who buys one of these mills to take it apart and look at it.  As a few of you did above.  And why would someone go on here and say that, but never contact us about an issue? Something sounds a little strange with that post though. If you have an issue, why didn't you contact us?


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## mikey553 (Oct 17, 2017)

Well, what can I say? If I offended anyone, I am sorry. That was not the purpose of my post. I just wanted to let people know about my unfortunate experience with PM mill and let them make their own conclusions.

By the way, my mill does not look like the Taiwan machines being sold today. I think Matt actually listened to me and stopped selling machines with a short vertical envelope, he just does not remember that. I cannot blame him, he has many customers - I have only one mill. 

Many of the issues have surfaced only recently, well after the 2 year warranty has expired. I do not feel I have the right to ask for anything right now. I had to remove the knee and the table  to clean the internal cast surfaces and paint them - the dirt and sand were falling off them and I did not like that. In the process I have found that all blind threaded holes were full of chips - nobody bothered to clean them. This is not a big deal, it just tells you about the assembly culture.

Only recently I have removed the ram from the tarret. This is when I discovered a piece of Chinese newspaper inside the ram cavity. It was forgotten inside during assembly, there is no access to that area from the outside. Is it possible that this machine was assembled in Taiwan? Yes, it is possible. But looking at the nice lead screws and nuts, each of which has a made in Taiwan logo, it is hard to believe that some of the horrible parts (ram adapter, for example) were also made in Taiwan. But that is possible too. So I have to apologize to Matt for accusing him of being a lier. I cannot prove it.

My point is - the machine can be good and not so good regardless of where it was made. Since Matt is reselling these machines it is his duty to be constantly on guard and watch the supplier like a hawk. After all they will only produce the level of quality, which is demanded from them. It is possible that current PM machines are made much better than 5 years ago - I have never seen one in person. If I would be in Matt's shoes, I would appreciate customer feedback, both positive and negative. It helps to keep the quality level high.


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## darkzero (Oct 17, 2017)

mikey553 said:


> Well, what can I say? If I offended anyone, I am sorry. That was not the purpose of my post. I just wanted to let people know about my unfortunate experience with PM mill and let them make their own conclusions.
> 
> By the way, my mill does not look like the Taiwan machines being sold today. I think Matt actually listened to me and stopped selling machines with a short vertical envelope, he just does not remember that. I cannot blame him, he has many customers - I have only one mill.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your reply & for being courteous. Had a gut feeling to let this one ride & I'm glad this thread didn't turn for the worse.


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## qualitymachinetools (Oct 17, 2017)

Saying that someone lied (When is not true) to you on a public forum like that is not the way to handle that though, thats for sure. For one, thats not the kind of thing that makes people want to help, and if that is said about the wrong person who is the kind to call a lawyer, it can end up really bad for the person who wrote that. It happens more than you think. I am not that person, I hate legal BS and all that kind of stuff and do not have time for that. And if you bought a machine from us, I'd rather you like the machine. Talk about the machine all you want, but when you use my name, and say I lied, particularly when we were never even contacted about a problem, that's not right.

        It doesnt matter if the warranty was expired or not, if you have a problem that was defective manufacturing, we take care of it. But I have never heard a thing about it. Why don't you send me some details on what the problems are and what you need, or even who you are to our email, so that it can be taken care of and you are happy with whatever you have. The sooner the better, after this Friday, I am going to be away for a bit with limited email. I'm not going to reply on here anymore, I do not want to hijack the original thread.


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## darkzero (Oct 17, 2017)

Thank you very much Matt.

Ok that's that. Enough of that subject. Let's please continue on with the original subject going foward. Thanks everyone.


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## mksj (Oct 18, 2017)

I commend the discussion by all and the moderator for keeping this discussion objective.  So this is the proverbial question, quantity vs. quality when deciding between the PM949 and the PM950. Even with the same specifications one also needs to factor in the specific models available at the time, as I have seen wide variances between models made by the same manufacture, and even for the same base model sold to different vendors. There are also sourcing changes for the same model number.  Both mills described will have very similar capabilities, and so the difference are more likely tactile as opposed to features (other than the accessories). There may be slight differences in the allowable tolerances, and no doubt finishes. Having helped a number of fellow hobbyist in the conversion of their lathes and mills (935 and 949) in VFD conversions, and also had hands on with a number of local machines, I have gotten some feedback from their owners as to their impressions. I also have been through a few machines, so have limited, but tangible comments on the subject.

So up front, I would say 99% of the 935 and 949 mill owners I have interacted with over the last 4-5 years have been very happy with these mills, most recently [X]Outlaw who purchased the PM949. I have not heard of any reliability or concerns as to the fit/finish with either the 935/949, and if anything most have been very impressed. I have no direct experience or heard any feedback with the 950. I have and do find as a general rule that fit/finish/tolerance of the same size/type Taiwanese machines to be better than those made in the Chinese mainland, and you pay for this. Even within the same manufacture there could be wide variations between the same base model based on the vendor specifications and cost points. Unfortunately for most of us, it is usually the case that a hands on/eye ball assessment is not possible, so we rely on other's experience's to guide us as too our choices. This also needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I also recently was faced with the same questions when upgraded from a benchtop mill to a full size knee mill, so also had to go through the same decision tree as to vendors and models. I had the option of getting a more fully accessorized mill at the same price, but at the end of the day it was the quality and the ability to get parts/service that governed my final purchase.

My recommendation would be in this case, given both machines have similar capacities, would be to opt for the PM949. This is based on the current model and the comments by several other owners of this mill. My own experience when I recently upgraded to a  knee  mill (LCM-42) and current  lathe (1340GT), both of Taiwanese origin, is that there was a very tangible difference in that you get what you pay for. I am very happy with both, and a world of difference better than what I had previously. Other factors that had a significant impact on my decision was warranty and post sales support.

So it comes down to budget (as usual), features and your needs/preferences. In most cases, for the same size machine regardless of origin/manufacture, it almost always comes down to the user's proficiency as to producing the final product. Given that costs are not miles apart between the 949 and 950, one can always save and buy accessories at a later point, funds permitting. Based on my past experience and current, at least for me, I have opted for the better quality tool/machine vs. more bells and whistles. In almost every case where I have purchased a lesser quality/cheaper item(s)/machine, it has been replaced at a later point and I paid significantly more in this 'learning" process.


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## darkzero (Oct 18, 2017)

mksj said:


> I commend the discussion by all and the moderator for keeping this discussion objective.  So this is the proverbial question, quantity vs. quality when deciding between the PM949 and the PM950. Even with the same specifications one also needs to factor in the specific models available at the time, as I have seen wide variances between models made by the same manufacture, and even for the same base model sold to different vendors. There are also sourcing changes for the same model number.  Both mills described will have very similar capabilities, and so the difference are more likely tactile as opposed to features (other than the accessories). There may be slight differences in the allowable tolerances, and no doubt finishes. Having helped a number of fellow hobbyist in the conversion of their lathes and mills (935 and 949) in VFD conversions, and also had hands on with a number of local machines, I have gotten some feedback from their owners as to their impressions. I also have been through a few machines, so have limited, but tangible comments on the subject.
> 
> So up front, I would say 99% of the 935 and 949 mill owners I have interacted with over the last 4-5 years have been very happy with these mills, most recently [X]Outlaw who purchased the PM949. I have not heard of any reliability or concerns as to the fit/finish with either the 935/949, and if anything most have been very impressed. I have no direct experience or heard any feedback with the 950. I have and do find as a general rule that fit/finish/tolerance of the same size/type Taiwanese machines to be better than those made in the Chinese mainland, and you pay for this. Even within the same manufacture there could be wide variations between the same base model based on the vendor specifications and cost points. Unfortunately for most of us, it is usually the case that a hands on/eye ball assessment is not possible, so we rely on other's experience's to guide us as too our choices. This also needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I also recently was faced with the same questions when upgraded from a benchtop mill to a full size knee mill, so also had to go through the same decision tree as to vendors and models. I had the option of getting a more fully accessorized mill at the same price, but at the end of the day it was the quality and the ability to get parts/service that governed my final purchase.
> 
> ...



Great post Mark & right you are. When I was in the market to purchase my current lathe & mill, I had made my decision that I was going to purchase from Matt. At the time, none of the Taiwan lathes & mills available now existed. If they did, knowing me I would definitely have bought them. There was the PM1340T though which was very nice but way out of my price range at the time. Sadly that one is no longer available & many of you may not even remember it.

Even with my PM1236, I don't know why but mine has many differences than the ones that you usually see. Before I came across this forum, there was a few of us on another forum that all bought PM1236s & mine is the only one to this day that I have seen like it. Doesn't matter though, it's still the same base machine.

I'd love to upgrade machines someday & I will probably stay loyal to Matt unless I find the right Mori Seki. Right now I just don't see a benefit to me to upgrade. I have so much specific tooling for my machines & I'm comfortable. Although I woukd love to have Taiwanese machines I still don't regret my purchases. They have served me well & Matt has ALWAYS taken care of me. You don't need Taiwanese machines to make good parts. So to all those that are in the market, buy what you can afford, learn, have fun, make parts, & enjoy!


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## Stonebriar (Oct 18, 2017)

Well said Will.


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