# Matching an insert to a toolholder.



## BillWood (Dec 11, 2018)

Hello,

 Saw these on ebay S12M-SCLCR09 SCLCR/SCLCL/SCMCN1212H09 Lathe Tool Holder & 10PC CCMT09T304 Insert

If they are not sold as a matching pair, are there any handy web pages / tips / clues for matching a toolholder to an insert. Did a google search which seemed to promise good answers but they fizzled out.

Do we have to translate CCMT09T304 back into plain English and then translate that plain English into SCMCN1212H09 ? This seems to be the answer from a few years ago on the practical machinist forum.

I have found codebuster sheets for both tools and inserts but was wondering if there are any tips and clues and shortcuts for quickly identifying/eliminating potential matches ?

I have been grinding my own HSS tools for the last 5 years and whilst I am not very good at it am getting better, and I would now like to start learning a bit more about these Carbide thingies.

Regards

Bill


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## mksj (Dec 11, 2018)

Please see that attached sheet which "lathe tool holders and inserts recommendations which gives some further info and suggested holders and inserts. Also some other information.

So CCMT type of inserts are probably the most commonly used general insert for smaller lathes (5 Hp and under). So the insert holders have a specific nomenclature as above. The tool holder is specific for a certain size insert, typically holders with the same size shank will use the same size inserts. So in this case 5/8" and 3/4" holder will typically use a 33.2X size insert the is a 3/8" size insert with a insert pocket neutral rake. The CCMT09T304 is just a different nomenclature ISO (vs. ANSI)  for the same thing. Insert holders may have a positive, neutral or negative rake for the insert pocket. A positive rake is usually for smaller machines and with less Hp, typically 2 Hp and less, Neutral for 2-5Hp lathes and negative for 5 Hp and greater (more rigid lathes). But insert edge profiles also have different edge profiles (rakes), so you can have a neutral or negative holder pocket but the insert edge can be positive. Think of it as the more positive the edge profile the more fragile the edge and the finer the cut, less postive is more durable and can take heavier interrupted cuts.

So for the most part you would be using a 33.51 size insert, the last number is the nose radius size. A 33.52 (larger radius) would give a smoother cut, but requires a deeper cut. A CCMT insert "M" is molded so not as sharp but works well in harder materials, a CCGT the "G" is a ground sharper edge which is more fragile but works better in softer materials (like aluminum and plastics). Then there are edge profiles, chip breakers and coatings which can be numerous. Usually the back of the insert box gives you recommendations. I will say, that the cheap inserts do not cut as well nor last as well, but you can buy brand name inserts on eBay at a fraction of retail. YOU do need to be careful as there are a lot of counterfeit ones so look carefully at the box and verify with the seller. I typically use Iscar, Kennametal, Creazitizit, Korloy and Sandvik. Once I find something that works well like the Iscar below, I stick with that insert. I only switch if I am doing something like hardened steels.

Iscar insert is very good for a wide range of materials, will even work with aluminum, but recommend a CCGT if you do a lot of aluminum
ISCAR CCMT 3-1-SM / CCMT09T304-SM CCMT 32.51 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-new-ISC...ade-IC907-Carbide-Inserts-Israel/233031871387
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SALE-CCMT-3-1-SM-IC907-ISCAR-10-INSERTS-FACTORY-PACK/401652528960

On softer metals and fine cutting of steel CCGT 32.51 Creazitizit or Korloy (I have bought from these sources both these sellers they seem legit)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-CCGT-32-51FN-25P-H210T-CERATIZIT-ccgt-09t304fn-25p-h210t/291946846515
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-KORLOY...-CNC-Carbide-Insert-10PCS-in-BOX/122617092912

Might look into WNMG for Aluminum if you have a larger lathe 2 Hp 12" swing or larger, Seco are hard to find so there are Iscar models in 5/8" and 3/4" holders that work well. I use Creazitizit or Korloy inserts 331.

On some inserts like the neutral type used for chamfering  I run one insert so for the SCMCN the CCMT Iscar would be for all materials. CCGT can be used for lighter cuts and finish cuts in steel, but the edges are more fragile.

On boring bar you often want a bit more radius at the tip, so something like a 32.52 CCMT insert. Keep the boring bar stick out as short as possible.

On threading, I use lay down insert holders, I find they work better than the vertical type, at least for my setup. 


So for general machining you will predominately be using the same inserts/sizes. Then you can get into other types of tool holders and inserts as needed for your type of work, but normally I only have two types of inserts for each type of insert, one molded and coated and the other is ground uncoated and polished carbide.
Mark.


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## middle.road (Dec 11, 2018)

mksj said:


> Please see that attached sheet .................
> So for general machining you will predominately be using the same inserts/sizes. Then you can get into other types of tool holders and inserts as needed for your type of work, but normally I only have two types of inserts for each type of insert, one molded and coated and the other is ground uncoated and polished carbide.
> Mark.


Mark, that is one heck of a write up! Should be Pinned somewhere.
Wish there were a way to leave multiple 'reactions', I'd use all of them in response to this post.


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## BillWood (Dec 11, 2018)

Mark,

Thankyou for the detailed response, and the downloads.

The document called inserts cdp.pdf is very informative showing both ISO and ANSI codes and also a column referring to a page for the matching toolholder. Thanks for that download.

Unfortunately the document stops at page 125 and the information about the toolholders starts at page 133.

I have tried googling inserts cdp to find the original document but no luck. Will do some more googling.

Am keen to see the pages about the toolholders, and am too inexperienced in these matters to figure out the name of the company website from the document.

What is the website or company name please ? My apologies if I have missed something terribly obvious.

Bill


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## mksj (Dec 11, 2018)

I believe that document was from Kyocera. There is a lot posted online, just do not want to overwhelm the individuals/site with information. The insert holders have their own nomenclature, you can follow it but it is easily overwhelming (at first). The important factor, at least at this level is to choose the style/properties of the insert so say neutral insert pocket, and screw in type is most common in this size. then determine the shape of the insert/size (like square, Rhombic 80, 55, etc.) and then see what holders there are.  If you select say 5/8" size holders the insert sizes will typically be the same (i.e. 3/8") and then all you need to determine is the angle of the insert in the holder. All my holders are screw down, with the exception of the WNMG which use a top clamp. This is the only style for this type of holder, and I would say for most negative rake insert holders.  I assume it is more rigid.

It is a bit of a brain drain at first, but it all starts to make sense providing you stay with more common inserts. All these companies have their own proprietary shapes and holders/cutters so it is confusing. Stick with a few basic insert types, and then find holders for right/Neutral or Center/Left turning. Depending on how the insert is held in the tool holder (angle) it has a different letter designation.

I would look at the attached Widia catalogue on the insert tool holders, you can also go to Carbide Depot and pick an insert and style and it will give you holders or visa versa. 
http://www.carbidedepot.com/
http://www.carbidedepot.com/Inserts-C1.aspx

If you have any questions shoot me a PM and I can give you some suggestions. As far as the holders, I do try to get better quality holders for those that I use a lot, they have replaceable seats and screw inserts, but for those that I use infrequently I have less expensive holders, like from TMX, Seco  and a few other vendors. If you know what you are looking sometimes eBay is good. Amazon also is worth looking at, but be very careful as some brands like Dorian have their own proprietary inserts that are difficult to source and expensive.


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## P. Waller (Dec 11, 2018)

BillWood said:


> Mark,
> 
> Thankyou for the detailed response, and the downloads.
> 
> ...


As far as symmetrical inserts go it is quite simple, they are not handed and will fit in and be usable in any correct pocket in any tool holder made for them.
However when they are asymmetrical they become handed and will only be useful in a correctly handed tool holder, beware the left handed/right handed letter in the tool number.


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## BillWood (Dec 11, 2018)

Mark,

Thankyou for your comments and help. Your advice is appreciated. Will  read and digest some of the links you have posted above.

As an aside - I like the way that some companies do automatically pair up the insert and a toolholder on ebay - my initial query was based on the fact that I wanted to use the 100 degree angle on a CCGT09T304 (80  100  80 100)  insert - I already had the LH toolholder to use the 80 degree tips and I wanted to better understand the logic in order to find the RH  toolholder and another one to use the 100 degree tips after I had "used up" the 80 degree tips.

I think with what you've given me above I should be able to do that.

Bill


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## mksj (Dec 12, 2018)

So a right hand holder is what you would use to machine toward the head stock, left hand is toward the tailstock. Since the inserts are inexpensive and last me 3-6 months, I do not bother with using the unused edge. I doubt that I have gone through a box of inserts in 4 years with my lathe. You are also limited as to the type of profiling yo can do using the 100 degree edge.Micro100 does have SCKCR 1010 which is what I believe you are looking for, and the holder is reasonably priced but only available for the smaller 21.51 insert. You would want one for a 32.51 insert, Tormach has one with a 1/2" shank that takes 32.5X inserts and is $40.

https://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=35644



In industry they use negative rake inserts because the inserts can be flipped and offer another set of cutting edges, and it all adds up with volume production.


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## P. Waller (Dec 12, 2018)

mksj said:


> In industry they use negative rake inserts because the inserts can be flipped and offer another set of cutting edges, and it all adds up with volume production.



The cutting edges of negative inserts are far stronger and therefore last longer, they do however take more power and rigidity to run efficiently.
Many negative rake tools are ground with 0 or positive cutting edges depending on their function. I have worked in machine shops full time for the last 30 years, these are the tool shapes that I currently use the most. A particular part may require a tool that only has one function such a face grooving, O-Ring dovetail grooving, back turning and so on.


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## BillWood (Dec 12, 2018)

Thanks for all the help and tips. I've got a much better understanding of Carbide Inserts and Toolholders now.

Bill


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## P. Waller (Dec 13, 2018)

I took this picture today at work. Both of these inserts are negative rake and fit in the same holder pocket.
The one on the left has basically a positive edge grind, it is sharp and is excellent for non ferrous materials such as aluminum, brass and plastics .

The one on the right is for steel, stainless steel and other tough materials, it is negative rake and has a generous radius on the cutting edge, I am not talking nose radius but the actual intersection of the side and the top of the insert. Many will tell you that knife sharp tooling is the cats pajamas for lathe work surface finishes but this is not often true with carbide tooling.
If your machine will push such tools they will produce excellent finishes.


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## BillWood (Dec 13, 2018)

Thanks P. Waller,

I have used tools similar to the sharp one on the left and they work very well on my little hercus (equivalent to 9" southbend) giving me a very good finish even on hot rolled steel - I call it black bar = 1018 mild steel with foundry scale on it.

I use tools similar to the one on the right to break through the crust on cast iron,  I dont think the little lathe is suited to this type of tool but it gets the crust off without knackering a sharp tool and then I can tidy the finish.

Bill


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