# Used US industrial vs New import....



## ArmyDoc (Aug 3, 2020)

It's the age old question, and I don't know if it will every be answered.  But I was wondering if it could be approached a different way...

It's the fear of every new hobbyist that, not knowing any better they drop a couple of grand on a used machine that is no good anymore, or that they spend the same couple of grand on a new machine that turns out to be too small for what they want to do. I'm talking about the $3-5,000 price range.

So, say you are considering a PM-833T or a PM-835S for a new mill vs a used Wells-Indes or Bridgeport in the same price range. something like one of these:








						Webb Champ 10" x 50" Variable Speed Vertical Milling machine w/ DRO, Power Feed | The Equipment Hub
					

General Info: Stock #: SB-200010 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Brand: Webb Model: Champ Serial #: 6656 Year: 1990 Approx. Shipping Weight: 3,500 Lbs. Approx. Shipping Dimensions: 72″ L x 72″ W x 93″ H Skidding Fee: $200 Specifications: Table Size: 10″ x 50″ Longitudinal Travel (X-Axis): 36″ Cross...




					www.theequipmenthub.com
				











						Amada AM-103 Heavy Duty Vertical Milling Machine w/ 3-Axis DRO | The Equipment Hub
					

General Info: Stock #: CD-191040 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Brand: Amada Model: AM-103 Serial #: 16320198 Year: 1986 Approx. Shipping Weight: 4,200 Lbs. Approx. Shipping Dimensions: 75″ L x 75″ W x 91″ H Skidding Fee: $250 Specifications: Table Size: 11-13/16″ x 41-3/8″ Spindle Speeds (16): 70...




					www.theequipmenthub.com
				




Assume you can do the normal things like make sure it turns on, sounds like it is running smoothly in all speed ranges, shake the table to see if it moves, check to see that it runs across it's full range of x,y and z axis's etc, but that you aren't able to spend more than say 5 or 10 minutes examining it. In other words, no one is going to buy a machine with obvious issues. But if it looks good, sounds good and seems to function well, how likely is it that it will have a serious issue? Is it more likely to perform worse, better or the same as the new but smaller machines?

What about the same basic question but for a PM-1340GT lathe vs something like these:








						DoAll Romi 13-5 13" x 60" Engine Lathe | The Equipment Hub
					

General Info: Stock #: CD-191235 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Brand: DoAll Romi Model: 13-5 Serial #: 32869 Approx. Shipping Weight: 3,500 Lbs. Approx. Shipping Dimensions: 106″ L x 52″ W x 68″ H Skidding Fee: $250 Specifications: Swing Over Bed: 13″ Distance Between Centers: 60″ Spindle Speeds...




					www.theequipmenthub.com
				











						Tos Trencin SN 40B 16″ x 60″ Gap Bed Engine Lathe | The Equipment Hub
					

General Info: Stock #: CL-191027 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Brand: Tos Trencin Model: SN 40B Serial #: 040150811756 Approx. Shipping Weight: 4,000 Lbs. Approx. Shipping Dimensions: 124″ L x 44″ W x 64″ H Skidding Fee: Skidding Unavailable Specifications: Swing Over Bed: 16″ Distance Between...




					www.theequipmenthub.com
				




Is there a different level of concern with a lathe vs a Mill, or is it pretty much the same thing?


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## Winegrower (Aug 3, 2020)

My opinion is that for the same purchase price, the used iron offers more.   Just about any issue can be repaired, and btw, read the threads on new import purchases that have problems...you could end up with a big repair effort even if there is a warranty.

Mill or lathe, same logic applies.


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## Janderso (Aug 3, 2020)

I'll second winegrower. I'm surprised how soon the imports lose motors or have electrical problems.
This of course on top of the poor fit and light construction.
I'm one of the old iron guys. You get more machine and they can be rebuilt for life.
The exceptions would be, significant way damage/wear and spindle bearings.
In some cases the spindle bearings cost more than the lathe, if you can get them.


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## ArmyDoc (Aug 3, 2020)

Janderso said:


> I'll second winegrower. I'm surprised how soon the imports lose motors or have electrical problems.
> This of course on top of the poor fit and light construction.
> I'm one of the old iron guys. You get more machine and they can be rebuilt for life.
> The exceptions would be, significant way damage/wear and spindle bearings.
> In some cases the spindle bearings cost more than the lathe, if you can get them.


How easy / hard is it to identify spindle bearing damage?


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## pontiac428 (Aug 3, 2020)

I might not be qualified to answer this, because I have never bought a new import machine (nor will I).  Nothing is more majestic than an old commercial machine that has been maintained.  Old iron tends to be adequately powered, massive, rigid.  Old machines are often found turning smoothly on their OEM bearings, bearings that cost plenty more of the percentage of a machine's cost when new.  Parts drawings and documentation can be had for old iron from Ozark Tool Manuals and come up on eBay.  Cleaning and adjusting is easy.  Sourcing and swapping motors is usually not a big deal if needed.  Now that VFD and RPC power is cheap, there's no reason not to buy a 3-phase machine and possibly gain variable speed control out of the deal.  I've never said "ooh" or "aah" over any page of the PM catalog, but you can bet I do in the Monarch, Van Norman, and Deckel sections!

It's like I say to my friends when they show off their brand-new pickup trucks:  "Meh, now you've got 5 years of payments and a truck you can't pick out as yours in a full parking lot."


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## mattthemuppet2 (Aug 3, 2020)

you'll get more iron for your money with used, that's for sure. If you have some mechanical aptitude there isn't too much of consequence that can't be fixed on old machines, but if you want a plug and play tool with a warranty, then new is where it's at.

Whatever you get though, don't forget the cost of tooling - chucks and steadys for those larger lathes are big $$ if you have to buy them afterwards.


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## markba633csi (Aug 3, 2020)

Wear on the sliding surfaces or major cracks in the iron castings are the two biggies for me.  But machines bought for hobby use can be a bit worn and still make good parts.  Gotta look over machines closely for the crack issue, especially if they have been painted recently
Back in the 70s my friends and I didn't think much of the import machines.  Times have sure changed.  
-Mark
Replacing bearings doesn't bother me, except for some very expensive lathe bearings
Vari-speed mill heads can take a bit of work to rebuild,  the step pulley versions are a little easier


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## pontiac428 (Aug 3, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> Whatever you get though, don't forget the cost of tooling - chucks and steadys for those larger lathes are big $$ if you have to buy them afterwards.



...where you will be presented with the exact same dilemma, cheap new import, or used quality makers.  And so it goes.


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## Janderso (Aug 3, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> How easy / hard is it to identify spindle bearing damage?


Good question.
I have limited experience so I'll share what I know.
I had a 1941 South Bend 13. The spindle bearings consisted of a polished spindle shaft and cast iron bearings. As long as they always had clean oil and were adjusted properly, they will probably last another 100 years. They were pristine.
On roller bearings you would check the TIR. Total indicated reading, of the lateral movement when turning the spindle.
The TIR should be checked after it gets to operating temp. 30 minutes?
Shut it down then check the spindle run-out. It should read .001" or less, the manufacturer will have specs at www.vintagemachinery.org 
You should check end play also.
When you run the lathe listen for unusual noises, check for looseness and feel for heat.
imho


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## BGHansen (Aug 3, 2020)

Not adding anything other than opinion.  Condition on used iron is everything.  Pound for pound, a NOS US made machine tool would be my choice over a new import.  You will be hard pressed to find a 1950 Clausing 6000 series lathe (for example) that hasn't been used.  Hence, the condition clause.  

I don't have any data to support it, my opinion is old US iron was designed and manufactured with the intent of getting heavy use.  Production shops will pay extra for a machine that runs all day, every day without having to fiddle with it.  My impression of current import hobby-level machine tools is they are designed for light use.  Current climate is to throw it out when it starts giving you trouble instead of trying to fix it.

I have a Clausing 5418 lathe (12" x 24") that was purchased new from the Kalamazoo factory by my dad in 1964 as part of the equipment to outfit the shop at Waverly High School in Lansing, MI.  Kids used the lathe, so not production work, though many inexperienced users.  I bought the lathe in around 1990 when the shop was shut down.  It has given me no trouble and the wear was minimal.  I can't feel any ridges in the bed from the carriage.  I do a really crude check for bed wear by taking the carriage to the far right end and lightly engage the carriage lock while jogging the longitudinal feed crank back/forth.  When it feels like it's giving some resistance, I crank to the head stock.  If it's really loosey goosey at the head stock, I repeat the carriage lock check at the chuck.  When it starts feeling a little snug, try to crank out to the tail stock end.  If it starts getting really tight, there's some bed wear.  Probably a better way is to use a test bar between centers and sweep the top or bottom with a dial test indicator.  Do the same thing with the tail stock; clamp loosely at the head stock and try to move it to the tail stock end.

I also have a 1981 Bridgeport that made it's way in my shop 3 years ago.  I'm the second owner.  It's a CNC mill, so has ball screws.  The seller and I measured the back lash at <0.001" in the X and Y.  The way are chromed and still show the flaking.  Table was pristine and has hints of flaking too.  We extended the quill 5", put an indicator on it and measured maybe 0.0005" in radial play.  Indicated on the R8 spindle and turned it by hand, no DTI movement.  I paid $4000 for the BP.  As an aside, the seller's shop was cleaner than a hospital operating room.  I thought I was anal until I met him.  A machinist at work recommended when looking at used equipment to ask "How tough is it to get to all of the lubrication points?"  If they him and haw, be very careful.  I asked the BP seller about his SB 9A and he pulled out a log book when he'd lubed the machine at the various points.  I'm bad, but not that bad.

Before buying my BP, I looked at a 1 1/2 HP Series 1 with a 42" table.  Seller was asking $1000.  I won't bore you with the complete description, but it was a project.  The parts are all available, and might have been a salvageable machine, but it wasn't for me.  Plus, when I asked him the lube question he said something like "Easy, I just don't worry about it".

I also have a Grizzly G0709 14" x 40" lathe that I bought new around 4 years ago.  I've probably run the lathe less than 400 hours in 4 years and it has given me absolutely no problems.  Would not hesitate to buy the same lathe again.  Designs have changed to accommodate metric/English threading, DRO's, etc.  I had a warranty which basically means anything that was broken or needed to be fixed would get a free part replacement with me providing the labor (pretty standard practice).  But if I could have picked up a Clausing Colchester 15" x 40" or a LeBlond Regal, would have considered them also.  My Grizzly weighs around 1600 lbs., the Clausing Colchester is probably over 2500 lbs.  I currently don't have a good way to move 3000 lbs. equipment, so went with the Grizzly.

If you are searching for used, try the search engine "Search Tempest" (searchtempest.com).  It searches Craig's List, eBay and Amazon.  You enter sort criteria like new/used, distance from your zip, price range, etc.  Here are a few within a state or two of you.

Bruce

Cincinnati 13" x 36" for $3750 in NC.








						Cincinnati Metal Lathe - tools - by owner - sale
					

13" geared head metal lathe (toolroom lathe), 3 hp., 13" swing, 36" between centers, 10" 3 jaw...



					charlotte.craigslist.org
				




DoAll 13" x 24" for $2000 in Orlando








						DoAll 13", lathe, turning lathe - heavy equipment - by owner - sale
					

Very good working DoAll metal lathe Specifications: Model: DoAll 13" Swing over bed: 13" Bed...



					orlando.craigslist.org
				




South Bend 16" x 36" (or longer) for $2500 South of Nashville








						Southbend 16” Metal Lathe. - tools - by owner - sale
					

16” South Bend lathe, nice 3 jaw chuck, taper attachment, tool post, chip tray. 3 phase. Lathe...



					nashville.craigslist.org


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## Janderso (Aug 3, 2020)

Bruce,
You bring up a good point.
When looking for a machine tool it is best to avoid a machine that was used in daily production.
My lathe came out of a local college.
Let's see, half the year they are closed, they are usually maintained and they do not perform repetitive tasks which would put more stress on the work zones.
That's good advice


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## pontiac428 (Aug 3, 2020)

Machines do exist that were only driven by an old lady machinist once a week to the grocer and to the local Grainger counter and parked in the garage the rest of the week for years.  Sometimes, they're sold in dollars that reflect the state of inflation when they were originally made, which is a real treat. I feel like I got a milling machine like that, which had actually spent the last 20 years in a school district pipefitter's shop just in case they needed it.  The only thing I could find on the mill was the expected peppering of shop dust.  There were some chips to let me know it had been used, but not enough chips to make me believe the machine is fully broken in.


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## Buffalo21 (Aug 3, 2020)

I have both, I have old machines from the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, but I also have equipment from the 90s and the 2000s.
to me it comes down to

what are you going to use it for
how big do you want
how much space do you have
how long are you willing to wait

in 1999, I wanted a larger lathe, found noting available at that time, so I bought a Jet, one of the best buys , I’ve ever got. I was so impressed with it I bought a Jet floor standing mill. No issue with either of the actual equipment, the 6” 3 jaw lathe chuck was junk, you could measure the runout with a pocket scale.

I also had 3 bad used lathes, one was totally my fault, one was bought sight unseen and one was a very well done Krylon rebuild, that on a day to day basis, fell apart. The one that was my fault was, I wanted a Monarch lathe, I got a Monarch lathe, just not a viable Monarch lathe, expensive lesson. The used Rockwell lathe was excellent, the Clausing was a project, the guy I sold it to, has it in an almost showroom condition, workable, but further than I wanted to go.


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## FOMOGO (Aug 3, 2020)

If you are considering that TOS lathe, I don't think you could do much better. They make a really nice machine, and that''s a good price for a machine that size. As always check for wear and function. Mike


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## addertooth (Aug 3, 2020)

I will put a strong caveat.  I made my living as a machinist back in the late 70s and early 80s (before manufacturing crashed in my home town).   If you really know what parts should be present, AND you know how to evaluate a used piece of equipment, you know how to check runout and alignment, then a Used machine can be a great choice.

Not everyone does, especially a newbie.  If you have a machinist buddy, you can drag him with you and he can examine the lathe.  Frequently used lathes are already disconnected from power, so it can be harder to evaluate whether they have certain issues (bearings, gears, etc).  The other issue is Space, a lot of these older lathes are quite large, and may have odd requirements, such as 3 phase power.  You need to look into this before you open your wallet.


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## DavidR8 (Aug 3, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> Machines do exist that were only driven by an old lady machinist once a week to the grocer and to the local Grainger counter and parked in the garage the rest of the week for years. Sometimes, they're sold in dollars that reflect the state of inflation when they were originally made, which is a real treat. I feel like I got a milling machine like that, which had actually spent the last 20 years in a school district pipefitter's shop just in case they needed it. The only thing I could find on the mill was the expected peppering of shop dust. There were some chips to let me know it had been used, but not enough chips to make me believe the machine is fully broken in.



Both my lathe and mill are in the “only driven on Sundays” type of condition. 
Lathe is a 1975 South Bend 10K. I’m technically the third owner but the second owner was a shop teacher and he couldn’t get clearance to use the lathe in his school. He said he never even plugged it in. It still has flaking marks the full length of the bed. 

Mill is the same story, I’m the third owner. It’s a 1980 mill/drill. The second had it for five years and only used it as a drill. He had no idea that it had a drawbar because he never needed to change the chuck. It was still covered in cosmoline and the ways are like new. 

I wouldn’t change a thing we’re I to do it again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pontiac428 (Aug 3, 2020)

After re-reading the thread, I wanted to offer some sort of solution to the question.  Obviously (at least to me and DavidR8) great examples of used machines are out there for prices often better than new.  Old machines are substantial and robust.  There can be a lack of documentation available on less-popular old machines.  New machines come delivered with a warranty and dial-up customer support.  New machines are shiny and can be made to order.  But @addertooth brought up the key point, and that is the used machine needs to be evaluated.  Many potential buyers feel that they cannot provide an adequate evaluation due to lack of specialized knowledge.  I don't think that has to be the end of it.  Those shopping for a machine can study the field to make a good model selection and to choose a machine in the right size.  Manuals are available in pdf from sites like vintagemachinery or lathes.co.uk.  This site has a good library too.  Manuals can be downloaded and studied, operating instructions and parts diagrams can give you the ability to figure out the wear points and learn how the specific machine is used.  With a few tools and indicators, you should be able to run quite a few meaningful tests on a used machine to make a satisfactory assessment leading to the right purchase choice.


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## projectnut (Aug 3, 2020)

Another vote for old American iron.  Among the machine tools in my shop are 2 lathes, 2 mills, 2 drill presses, 2 bandsaws, a power hacksaw, a drill sharpener, a die filer, a surface grinder, a shaper, and a belt/disk sander.  Of those tools only the drill presses are of foreign origin.  The only tool purchased new was one of the drill presses.  All the rest are old iron with manufacture dates ranging from 1916 to 1984.  Most were purchased from shops upgrading to larger or CNC equipment, or local schools.

They all needed a cleaning when they arrived, but none needed major repairs.  Of the 3 I've had the longest the Bridgeport mill and Seneca Falls lathe have been in the shop 20+ years.  One of the drill presses has been in the shop 30+ years.  In that time between them they have needed less than $100.00 in repairs.  I've spent far more on tooling than anything else.  The truth be known I've probably spent as much or more for tooling than I did for the machines themselves.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 3, 2020)

If you have the knowledge to evaluate a used machine, or know somebody who can, used machines can be a bargain. If you don't they are a gamble, maybe you get a deal on a good machine, maybe you bought 1000lbs of scrap iron. You will find stories of both, perfect used lathe at a great price and major projects that were priced way too high. Parts on older machines can be harder to get and may be more expensive.

New machines you hopefully get a warranty, parts availability and no wear, but like buying a new car you are paying a premium for being the first owner. 

What you are buying makes a difference too, many of the smaller lathes have some give and take. You can find older 9 and 10" lathes with a full quick change gear box, most modern lathes in that class use change gears. On the other hand many of these older lathes use belts to control speed and have a smaller spindle bore of 5/8-3/4". The current new lathes in this size often offer variable speed control and a spindle bore of 3/4-1".

Comparing "hobbyist" grade used machines in the 10-12" range used is about 50% of new, whether used import or used vintage USA, but when you start looking at industrial sized machines you can get a great deal on large machines. Not many people can provide a home for a 2000lb+ machine, so they tend to go fairly cheap. If you look at a Grizzly "Southbend" lathe in the 18" swing class it is a $20-30,000 machine new. You can find old US made 18-20" lathes for as little as $1000 and often $3000-5000 which puts them in the same price range as a new 12x36 and in that case you are certainly getting more machine for the money.

Something to really look at on a used machine is the tooling that comes with it. Getting a nice vintage machine that doesn't come with much may cost you more than the machine just to get your basic tooling package as well as take time as you shop ebay and CL.


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## ArmyDoc (Aug 4, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> If you have the knowledge to evaluate a used machine, or know somebody who can, used machines can be a bargain. If you don't they are a gamble, maybe you get a deal on a good machine, maybe you bought 1000lbs of scrap iron. You will find stories of both, perfect used lathe at a great price and major projects that were priced way too high. Parts on older machines can be harder to get and may be more expensive.


This is the crux of the matter.  In the examples I posted, they have videos of the machines running.  I imagine I could bring a dial test indicator to check TIR, etc.  That's about the extent of my ability.  Have not touched a lathe or Mill in 30 years.  My inclination is that they will at least be serviceable.  And they do have a 30 day return policy, so I could theoretically examine them in depth once I got them.   These likely wouldn't be the machines I end up with.  I'm hoping to have the shop up within the next year, so purchase is about that far away.  They had a beautiful lathe that would have been perfect, but sold it last week.



Aaron_W said:


> What you are buying makes a difference too, many of the smaller lathes have some give and take. You can find older 9 and 10" lathes with a full quick change gear box, most modern lathes in that class use change gears. On the other hand many of these older lathes use belts to control speed and have a smaller spindle bore of 5/8-3/4". The current new lathes in this size often offer variable speed control and a spindle bore of 3/4-1".
> 
> Comparing "hobbyist" grade used machines in the 10-12" range used is about 50% of new, whether used import or used vintage USA, but when you start looking at industrial sized machines you can get a great deal on large machines. Not many people can provide a home for a 2000lb+ machine, so they tend to go fairly cheap. If you look at a Grizzly "Southbend" lathe in the 18" swing class it is a $20-30,000 machine new. You can find old US made 18-20" lathes for as little as $1000 and often $3000-5000 which puts them in the same price range as a new 12x36 and in that case you are certainly getting more machine for the money.


That's one thing I have going for me.  I'm building my shop, which will be empty, so lots of space.  The building will be a steel frame building ~40x70 with 12 ft side walls, but only 40x40 can be dedicated to the shop.  More than plenty to start, though I've been told it will be too small if I keep with this.  If that happens, I can always move the farm equipment out of the other end and build a new building for them.  (wife will love that, so it'd better be many years down the road)


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## projectnut (Aug 4, 2020)

Message deleted


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## tq60 (Aug 4, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> This is the crux of the matter. In the examples I posted, they have videos of the machines running. I imagine I could bring a dial test indicator to check TIR, etc. That's about the extent of my ability. Have not touched a lathe or Mill in 30 years. My inclination is that they will at least be serviceable. And they do have a 30 day return policy, so I could theoretically examine them in depth once I got them. These likely wouldn't be the machines I end up with. I'm hoping to have the shop up within the next year, so purchase is about that far away. They had a beautiful lathe that would have been perfect, but sold it last week.
> 
> 
> That's one thing I have going for me. I'm building my shop, which will be empty, so lots of space. The building will be a steel frame building ~40x70 with 12 ft side walls, but only 40x40 can be dedicated to the shop. More than plenty to start, though I've been told it will be too small if I keep with this. If that happens, I can always move the farm equipment out of the other end and build a new building for them. (wife will love that, so it'd better be many years down the road)


We thought same...too many estate sales and being a pack rat causes space depleting sydrome...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## silverhawk (Aug 4, 2020)

Dale, on YouTube under build something cool, had a video which he talks about evaluating a mill. If you are looking at a used mill, i would suggest watching that first. I talks about what tools you will need and where you look. 

joe


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## ArmyDoc (Aug 4, 2020)

silverhawk said:


> Dale, on YouTube under build something cool, had a video which he talks about evaluating a mill. If you are looking at a used mill, i would suggest watching that first. I talks about what tools you will need and where you look.
> 
> joe


That was a good video.  I've also watched videos by Tom on Oxtools and I think one by Joe Pie on lathe evaluation.  Trying to "edjumakate" myself as best I can.


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## matthewsx (Aug 4, 2020)

Your best resource is right here. 

If you want a new machine there are endless threads about manufacturers, importers, makes, models, etc.

If you want used and have some specific machines in mind I would reach out to the members here and see if anyone is within spitting distance of the machine and can help you evaluate it.

Our members are tremendously knowledgeable and helpful so I bet with a little lead time you can find someone who has the experience and measuring tools to make your used machine purchasing far less of a gamble.

Your budget is reasonable for either but you will definitely get more machine used and as with most things built in the US middle of last century the quality is hard to argue with even considering some wear.

John


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## Aaron_W (Aug 4, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> This is the crux of the matter.  In the examples I posted, they have videos of the machines running.  I imagine I could bring a dial test indicator to check TIR, etc.  That's about the extent of my ability.  Have not touched a lathe or Mill in 30 years.  My inclination is that they will at least be serviceable.  And they do have a 30 day return policy, so I could theoretically examine them in depth once I got them.   These likely wouldn't be the machines I end up with.  I'm hoping to have the shop up within the next year, so purchase is about that far away.  They had a beautiful lathe that would have been perfect, but sold it last week.
> 
> 
> That's one thing I have going for me.  I'm building my shop, which will be empty, so lots of space.  The building will be a steel frame building ~40x70 with 12 ft side walls, but only 40x40 can be dedicated to the shop.  More than plenty to start, though I've been told it will be too small if I keep with this.  If that happens, I can always move the farm equipment out of the other end and build a new building for them.  (wife will love that, so it'd better be many years down the road)



I don't think that there is a right answer, but with a year before you get serious about buying you have time to learn.

I've ended up with mostly older machines of 1940s to 1970s vintage, but I have been lucky that this site has introduced me to local people who were able to help me locate and evaluate the machines I've bought. Had I bought new I probably would have gone with a PM 1022 or 1127, and a PM25 mill. For about the same money I now have an 11x24" lathe, small knee mill, small horizontal mill, and a 7" shaper.

There is a lot of bashing of new machines, but if you go through a reliable vendor even the Chinese machines are decent, and Taiwan made machines can be very good. An added benefit of new is you can get what you want, when you want it (mostly, there can be stocking delays). 
With vintage machines you have to find them, and while you can choose a size, you may end up having to learn a lot quickly when an unknown to you machine shows up to find out about its reputation, parts availability, fair price etc. If it is really a deal it may be gone long before you can make an educated decision.

With your space vintage offers you a great opportunity to get a lot of machine for your money. You have time, when you see a machine for sale that interests you, start a post on it. When you are ready to buy you should have a pretty good idea of what machines to keep an eye out for.


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## DavidR8 (Aug 4, 2020)

I thoroughly agree with @Aaron_W. 
Research early on as you are doing will pay dividends in the long run.


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## seasicksteve (Aug 4, 2020)

My 2 cents echos what you have already heard. IMO if you are able to look at a used machine and evaluate its condition I would be inclined to buy a good used machine. If this is the way you want to go aside from condition consider parts availability, customer support, voltage, size and weight ect. I have Colchesters they are great machines but if you need parts you are going to pay. I feel for a hobby machinist if you purchase import and take care of the equipment it will last you a lifetime. I think that for the most part the import machines are capable of producing quality work and tolerances. IF I bought import I would lean toward the mid price range machines that have a bit more mass and features. Less risk buying new if you dont know what  to look for in a used machine.


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## samstu (Aug 4, 2020)

For a contrasting view (ok, maybe I'm wrong), I was recently looking for a CNC mill.  Just a hobby machine and to learn.  I know I will never put many hours on any machine, nor run it hard.  I also won't ever need anything more than modest accuracy.  I looked at maybe 10 machines and it came down to a bridgeport Boss with a 10 year old Centroid conversion or a 4 year old Tormach 1100 series 3.  

So, I spent a lot of time evaluating each, pros, cons etc.  The bridgeport was certainly more capable but  I did find the Bridgeport was cross-listed on Ebay and the advertisement was nearly a year old.  Similar story with other centroid coversions which, if you aren't familiar are real industrial conversions.  The tormach had been listed a day or two when I called.  Other tormachs I watched seem to sell in a short time.  

So I chose the Tormach.  It's the lesser machine, But I CAN SELL IT.  So if this hobby is new to you, you think you might outgrow or loose interest, I would argue a machine with a wide audience might be a better buy since there is always a ready market.  Words like 3 phase, 220 volts, or we have a forklift to load aren't appealing to everyone.  

There's also an important safety component.  New machines usually have safety shutoff, guards, shields, enclosures.  These are important when working alone, doing something unfamiliar or as we get older.  Old machines may or may not have been retrofitted and most have total loss bearings which equates to mess and other hazards.  

To be fair, my Tormach joins my 1939 Southbend 13 inch lathe, Van Norman 16 and a couple shapers because I have 3 phase, 440 volts and a front end loader......


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## silverhawk (Aug 4, 2020)

I just want to post this... you will probably have a few forum members close by you in Georgia (or wherever you are looking).  When you are ready to go look at a machine, have one who is willing to go with you.  It's always good to have a second set of eyes, especially if you are unsure of yourself.


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## Splat (Aug 4, 2020)

Like most others here, I went thru this debate. I'll toss my hat in the ring here. If you (the buyer) is relatively new to the machine you're buying or you don't have enough knowledge to NOT buy a junker or have someone knowledgeable to bring along, or you can't trust the seller the answer's not that hard. Buy new, preferably from a reputable dealer. Less chance of getting screwed, you get a warranty, and the machine should be ready to plug and pray...I mean play.    The time eaten up by waiting for a great used machine is another very important factor.  I have old American and new(ish) Asian machines. I got very lucky finding my Johansson mill and the Grizzly G4003G. I'm not the most patient of fellows.


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## Tim Hoffman (Aug 12, 2020)

Hello everyone,

I have been asking the same question about new vs. used equipment, found this thread very helpful. I have been looking at the new PM-1236 lathe, have heard good things about Precision Matthews and there equipment. But availability is a problem (there 1236 just went out of stock).

I have been looking on Craigslist for used lathes, but not much there. What other sources of used equipment are there?

Thanks


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## pontiac428 (Aug 12, 2020)

Tim Hoffman said:


> What other sources of used equipment are there?


Machinery dealers (may have to include freight in the cost but gives you a good selection), auction houses, estate sales... The good deals are off the beaten path.  I practically stole my milling machine at a local school district auction that only about 50 people showed up for.  Estate sales take patience, but they can be goldmines.  Getting good used equipment may take patience, but there are deals to be had if  you're willing to turn over enough stones.  You can get a decent machine by being opportunistic, and you can get that unicorn of a dream lathe if you search diligently and you're willing to make a road trip with a trailer.


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## ttabbal (Aug 12, 2020)

For used, it's all about patience and ability to jump when you see something you like. Have the money available so you can be ready. Then just watch whatever sources are available near you. Craigslist isn't that useful near me, we have a local newspaper that went to online classified ads a long time back and managed to get more traffic before Craigslist became big, so most things get listed there first. Auctions, estate and yard sales, etc.. Government and other public sector auctions and such can also be good sources. 

I own a PM1127, and have been quite happy with it. If I had the budget, I probably would go with the 1236T/1440T.


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## DavidR8 (Aug 12, 2020)

Tim Hoffman said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have been asking the same question about new vs. used equipment, found this thread very helpful. I have been looking at the new PM-1236 lathe, have heard good things about Precision Matthews and there equipment. But availability is a problem (there 1236 just went out of stock).
> 
> ...



Where I live is a veritable desert for machine tools. 
I had the most luck by creating alerts in my local classified sites and by posting “Wanted” ads. 
When I was looking for a lathe my wanted ad turned up four responses in less than an hour. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## derfatdutchman (Aug 12, 2020)

Places to look for machinery besides Craigslist,  Facebook Market Place, Auctionzip, govdeals, municibid, and even the for sale ads in the local news paper (Yes they still print them for us FOG's). Tell people your looking for machine tools. That's how I found my first lathe someone told me about one for sale.


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## ericc (Aug 12, 2020)

The best leads are incidental, in other words, they come from some side channel other than Craigslist.  The problem about Craigslist is that people around here just mob the deals, and you end up fighting for scraps.  One of the best deals I saw was a moving sale.  The Craigslist advertisement said machinist tools, and I went there.  There was a whole garage full of pushy old men and the stuff was selling fast and cheap.  I asked the fellow in charge what was going on.  He said that Apple had bought this house for one of its key players, and they offered $400K extra to get the house empty by the end of the month, which was rapidly approaching.  He pointed to the side of the garage and said he's going to have a hard time unloading the large mill and lathe pushed up against the wall.  He asked if I had a spare few hundred bucks.  I said, no space, and he said that's what those pushy men said too.  If he had put photos on Craigslist along with that price, it would be gone in a matter of days.  He did and it was.

Don't be worried about getting the best deal.  If you get something good, and it is fulfilling, it will amortize out to a very good return.  If you think you might lose interest after a little while, get an import mini lathe, doesn't matter if it is new or used, and you can sell it in a few months with little wear, some rust patina, and a couple of stripped/missing plastic gears.


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## Tim Hoffman (Aug 12, 2020)

Wow, Five responses in under an hour! 



ericc said:


> He asked if I had a spare few hundred bucks. I said, no space...


This is the problem I have had with a lot of used equipment, a 1200 LB 12x36 is probably the biggest lathe we could handle/have space for.
A new PM lathe looks good, yet somthing used for good bit less would leave a lot more room for other equipment (PM-30MV?).

I guess the "wanted section" it is!


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## projectnut (Aug 12, 2020)

Another vote for patience, perseverance, and Old American Iron.  When I was looking for a milling machine some 20+ years ago I knew what I wanted.  We had over a dozen Tree brand machines at work and I loved them.  I spent over 2 years looking for "just the right machine" with no luck.  I must have looked at over a dozen.  All were either worn beyond repair, had little or no tooling, or were overpriced.

I kept looking and happened on a Bridgeport  machine from a high school.  It was in decent shape and the price was right.  I kept looking for other machines and found many from shops that were downsizing, upgrading to CNC, or going out of business.  The last several machines found me rather than me going to look for them.  Word got around the local shops as to what I was interested in and in time owners were calling me asking if I was interested in a particular machine.  There are now about 2 dozen machines in the shop.  I'm still keeping my eyes open for a couple more, but not actively perusing  them.  I'm sure in time what I'm looking for will appear at the right price.  

As a side note all but 2 drill presses in my shop are American  iron.  Almost everything was purchased used rather than new, and none have needed major repairs.  A few needed a good cleaning, but that's about the extent of it.  Over the years I've spent far more on tooling than I have on repairs.  I'm guessing that the machines themselves are between 40% and 50% of the cost of setting up the shop.  I've probably spent as much or more on tooling than I have on the machines themselves.


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## hman (Aug 12, 2020)

Don't think it's been mentioned previously, but Offer Up will **sometimes** have something worthwhile.  It's a bit flakey, and it often looks like the sellers forget to remove their ads - I've seen some as old as 3 years!  Might be worth a try.


			https://offerup.com/explore/k/tools-machinery/


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## kb58 (Aug 12, 2020)

I find it handy to think of old US-manufactured machinery like buying, for example, a 1961 Chevy. ALL the same things apply when buying a mill or lathe. It's all about how much you know about the model, or at least who you know. If you need a car to restore, great, lots of spare parts. But, if you need something today to drive 50 miles each way to work, that new import car probably makes more sense. Again, same thing with the machinery. If you aren't in a hurry to be productive, its condition doesn't much matter, but if you own a shop or at-home business, *I* would probably look at a new import. Like so many things, it depends.


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## matthewsx (Aug 12, 2020)

Patience is your friend, Benjamin is also your friend when it comes time to buy.

Don't try to negotiate over email, every seller has a list of people who want to pay less than their asking price who have never even bothered to look at the machine.

Go and look at anything local to you that's remotely suitable, even if the price is silly, because it will give you more knowledge.

I can think of one person on here who bought an older machine and really regrets it, but his need is for a business he's running. Most of us are hobbyists so having to do some refurb or repairs is just a good chance to learn more about the hobby. If all you want to do is just turn out parts then it makes sense to focus on only known good new machines but if you see this as a journey in learning then even overspending on a used machine can reap benefits far beyond actually having a particular tool. Time you spend setting up, fixing, and improving your tools gives you a much deeper understanding and builds confidence in ways that just buying something never will. Think about it this way, you can go buy the best guitar out there but if you don't practice, anyone with a cheap guitar can be a better player by putting in the time. Buying a project forces you to put in the time, and is quite likely to provide a more capable machine for less money.

When thinking about used don't limit yourself to just Old American Iron. There are plenty of worthy Taiwanese, German, Spanish, and even Chinese machines out there. If you're willing to look past dirt, rust and old chips you may end up with a deal, the one thing I would avoid is something that is "restored". Often these machines are just painted to look pretty so the seller can make a quick buck. Alternatively it might be something wonderful but the seller has put so much into it that they think it's made of gold. These are good to go look at though because often the owners will give you lots of info on what the process was and maybe, just maybe they will like you enough to drop their price to something reasonable.

I've owned four metal lathes, the first one was a multi-function that wasn't worth the cast iron it was made from, I bought it new and was happy to sell it for less than half what I paid. The second was definitely "old iron" a 100-year-old Seneca Falls machine I got for $300 off Craigslist and still have today, I used it in my business and it more than paid for itself just cleaning up engine parts. The third was a rusty 6" Craftsman I fixed up because I really wanted to have something out here earlier this year, I paid $275 and put about another $300 into it. And now I have a 13x40 Bolton that I traded the Craftsman for straight across. It needs a lot of work but I like the process of fixing up and building machines, maybe even a little more than just making stuff with them....

Don't get wrapped up in trying to make sure your first lathe will be perfect, even a basket case has the potential to teach you more than you ever thought.


Cheers,

John


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## PT Doc (Aug 21, 2020)

Call some new machinery dealers and inquire about any machine deals. You might be surprised that A buyer puts a deposit down for a,custom machine and then they have to cancel. That machine can be deal for You.


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## SarahMay (Jul 19, 2021)

There are a few reasons I like buying used equipment. First, of course, is the cost. You're usually able to get a much better deal compared to brand new machinery. Second, you can find some fantastic deals on used equipment. Usually, you're able to save around 20% off of the price of new machines. This platform has the best deals for me always! I always get all kinds of pieces of machinery from https://www.kitmondo.com/. Even better than that, sometimes you can find outstanding deals on used equipment that haven't even been used yet.


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## rabler (Jul 19, 2021)

Old thread, old topic, no one answer for everyone.

I love refurbishing the old machines, but that requires working machine tools.  So now I have 4 lathes, 2 mills, 2 surface grinders. And plan on building a larger shop (#3).  I'm fortunate to have the option to pursue all of that.


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## Tim Hoffman (Aug 8, 2021)

rabler said:


> Old thread, old topic, no one answer for everyone.
> 
> I love refurbishing the old machines, but that requires working machine tools.  So now I have 4 lathes, 2 mills, 2 surface grinders. And plan on building a larger shop (#3).  I'm fortunate to have the option to pursue all of that.


In the end I purchased a PM1236 lathe. I have been really happy with it! Guess I should probably post some photos... I got it last fall.
It sounds like you have your hands full


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## addertooth (Aug 8, 2021)

Tim Hoffman said:


> In the end I purchased a PM1236 lathe. I have been really happy with it! Guess I should probably post some photos... I got it last fall.
> It sounds like you have your hands full


Yes, by all means... post some pictures.  Everyone likes looking at tool pictures here.  Often we like seeing how others mounted/set-up their new toys.


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