# 2x72 belt grinder build



## rabler

Started building a 2x72 belt grinder.  I've got the model in FreeCad done, here's a thumbnail picture of the model:





This is composed of about 16 parts in Freecad, assembled with A2plus Assembly workbench  (File belt-grinder-assembly.FCStd).  I used simple rotate/translate in the assembly rather than relative constraints, I tried the constraints but changes broke to much.  I may try Assembly4 for future projects.  This is still a learning process.  The (pink) base is set up so that it can pivot to a horizontal configuration to be used as an edge sander, the arm with the table under the platen rotates appropriately.  Design includes a disc sander off the side because I could.  If anyone is interested, the design files are attached, but it might be prudent to wait until I'm done to see what works/doesn't work with this design.   Some of the hardware detail is missing, I didn't add all the bolts and pivot pins, etc, to the drawing, just gets to be too much detail.  Also I'm doing some welding to put this together.  The CAD design includes holes used as weld pockets, which I like to use as they seem a little easier to retain alignment.


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## Dhal22

I'll test drive that for a few years once you're done building it.


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## larry4406

Nice project!  I am following you along.

The pivot point below the motor on the pin/shaft would seem to be well below the center of gravity of the unit making tipping over more difficult.  Maybe extend the pivot points upward and use two separate arbors/pins?


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## rabler

larry4406 said:


> The pivot point below the motor on the pin/shaft would seem to be well below the center of gravity of the unit making tipping over more difficult.  Maybe extend the pivot points upward and use two separate arbors/pins?


That might be a good change, it is going to be fairly heavy.  On the other hand I want it to be fairly stable in either position, although there will also be a spring pin in the base to keep it from pivoting.  I'll let you know when it's done.


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## rabler

Here's a PDF of all the TechDraw shop diagrams.  I don't use the classic drawing frame and footer so admittedly not the easiest to follow.    There are some minor inconsistencies here, mostly with matching hole diameters for pins/bolts, so revisions are expected.


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## brino

Watching this build.
Thanks for sharing!
Brian


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## kolbroshop

wow, you have put remarkable amount of work in it. Just WOW. Will be folowing this build....


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## rabler

Here's the first part I'm working on.   It is the main body of this and certainly the most complicated. This is actually 7 separate pieces of metal, to be welded together.  I've already made the main backplate and the two pivot arms, next need to work on the slide supports for the platen arms and table.  I'll grab some shop pictures of what this looks like so far.


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## kolbroshop

rabler said:


> Here's the first part I'm working on.  This is actually 7 separate pieces of metal, to be welded together.  Shop pictures to follow later today.
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> View attachment 392434


How are you going to cut those parts? Plasma? laser? waterjet? Angle grinder?


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## rabler

kolbroshop said:


> How are you going to cut those parts? Plasma? laser? waterjet? Angle grinder?


Bandsaws, horizontal and vertical.  I did order a couple of new bandsaw blades for the vertical saw after doing this.  I used what was marketed as a "Starret" blade on Amazon or Ebay (?) but I'm thinking it was a cheap knock off.  It cuts poorly and is welded badly so it jumps significantly every time the weld goes past the cut.  Also, while 3/8" stock should be about right for a 10TPI blade, for hand fed projects I lean toward a higher tooth count.

The larger piece started life as pieces of A36 HRS 3/8" x 6" bar which I had purchased a full 20' piece for a previous project.  The tabs on top were welded on and then the whole thing was milled.  Sort of an experiment that was only marginally successful.  The problem (of course) is that welding is really hard to get things perfectly aligned and straight, and neither face was flat so I had trouble putting it on the table.  What I should have done is sat it up on some 123 blocks that didn't span a weld.  Duh.

(For those of you not use to working with cellulose, these are sitting on a woodworking shaper table.)



The large cutout for the motor c-face was done with a 4 1/2" hole saw.  Yeah, that was slow.  I stopped about 1/2 way through and touched up all the teeth on the whole saw with a diamond file.  My preference would have been to use a 4 1/4" hole saw and then bore it out.  Or maybe I should have set it up on the rotary table.  It came out well enough.  I think my measurements for the four motor mounting bolts must have been off by 1/8"?  You can see I milled out those holes inward a bit, kind of crude.    Most of the rest of the holes are for plug welds.  Once those are done I want to use the face mill to clean up the welds, I'll clean up that tab at the same time.

Since the two top pieces are identical, after I bandsawed them out, I clamped them together to drill and mill the edges.  The radiused edges were done on a rotary table, I did the large base plate tabs on the rotary table at the same time.  Here's my aluminum fixture plate that I use to put 14" parts on an 8" rotary table. Trick is to remember to indicate the table center in to zero on the DRO before mounting the aluminum plate on the table (held down by two 3/8" shcs into T-nuts on the table.  I really need to rebuild this rotary table, it came with a factory featured backlash of several degrees, so I generally have to stabilize it by hand when making rotary cuts.



It is interesting to do both the CAD and the machine work ... you learn a few things in the process that would be easy to miss if I hadn't done both.


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## rabler

kolbroshop said:


> How are you going to cut those parts? Plasma? laser? waterjet? Angle grinder?


I had thought about sending them out to be laser cut (sendcutsend.com).   I got the large plate design to upload but I had actually already welded it together (before facing it).  With a projected cost of $140, I decided to go ahead and just mill what I had.  I tried several times (literally redrawing them from scratch in CAD) to get the two smaller pieces to upload but sendcutsend kept rejecting the DXF files that Freecad produced.  

I may try again on uploading for the dark green bracket that holds the platen and front rollers, it has several arcs.  But that'll be a bit before I get to that.


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## rabler

Working on the dark blue base, making the supports for the arms.  These are 2" x .75" x 6.5" cold rolled 1018.  I want the upper arm to fit into a bit of a taper so that it seats well.  I picked 5 degrees per side, but I don't have gauge blocks to use with a sine table.  I suppose I could mill something close enough to the needed thickness, but the reality is that as long as the arm and the sides match, the angle doesn't have to be precise.  So I went ahead and milled the upper arm at the same time.  This will also help with welding as I can just clamp it all together.

My mill doesn't have front/back adjustment (nod?), just left/right (tilt?).  This meant a bit of messing around to get the pieces set up right.  My table travel is only about 8" in the Y axis.  But the whole head can be cranked in/out.    As a side note, I'm thinking of adding a cheap 1 axis DRO, even a repurposed caliper, on that in/out so that I can calibrate moves.    The challenge is that the arm is 14" long, and has to be turned outward to do one side and inward to do the other to get angles on both sides using the same left/right tilt of the head.

I also went ahead and relieved the bottom of the V.  This offsets the platten base a bit from the table arm so that the platten pivot action doesn't interfere with the table arm.  As a side note, I really like this glacern face mill, 3", high positive rake, I'm using ISCAR SEHT43AFN IC28 inserts.  Only real problem is that is showers chips in about a 6' radius around the mill.


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## ShawnR

Wow! Great project. Great documentation. I built one last year, very similar to what you are doing. I also started with FreeCAD but am so slow at learning CAD that I went back to pencil and paper, weld and grind, trial and error.   

Mine is powered by a treadmill motor and is variable speed. It also goes horizontal. I cast the wheels from aluminum, then installed the bearings. I am still not super happy with the tracking wheel adjustment. It works great but hard to move. I think the spring is hanging up. Otherwise, it was a fun project that included many of my interests, from casting to welding to machining. And lots and lots of head scratching! I would have liked to have the skills to draw it up ahead of time but that is a project in itself.

What are you doing for wheels?

Good luck! Cheers!


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## rabler

@ShawnR,
Yes, drawing it up in FreeCad was quite a task, but I'm now comfortable enough with FreeCad basics to use it for other things so I'll count that as success, even if I'm still not proficient.  I'm going to use a 2HP AC motor with a VFD.   Casting is not (at least yet) in my skill set.  The smaller wheels I will turn out of some 3" aluminum stock, the larger drive wheel I have a short piece of aluminum 1/2" wall pipe 6" OD, and am looking at welding in 5" disc to make the center that will bolt to a steel hub.  Design drawings from FreeCad below.


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## Janderso

rabler said:


> @ShawnR,
> Yes, drawing it up in FreeCad was quite a task, but I'm now comfortable enough with FreeCad basics to use it for other things so I'll count that as success, even if I'm still not proficient.  I'm going to use a 2HP AC motor with a VFD.   Casting is not (at least yet) in my skill set.  The smaller wheels I will turn out of some 3" aluminum stock, the larger drive wheel I have a short piece of aluminum 1/2" wall pipe 6" OD, and am looking at welding in 5" disc to make the center that will bolt to a steel hub.  Design drawings from FreeCad below.


Your contribution and documentation for this project is a valuable addition to the forum.
I don’t enjoy your confidence or ability with any form of CAD but many do.
Thanks for sharing 
Lots if pics please.


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## rabler

@Janderso
Pics incoming!
Here's welding the supports for the arms to the motor base.  First I opened the plug weld holes up to 3/4" most of the way through, left the 3/8" hole at the bottom.  I clamped up the arms and the support brackets to the base to get a good fit, and then welded. Not delighted with this weld job. I welded these with my MIG box, I should have used the TIG so I could back off on the power near the top and fill them without undercutting.  I did a rough milling pass to clean up the welds.  I guess a bit of auto body putty and it will look great  

Last picture is one of the pivot arms clamped into place, welding both of those in will be next but I want to set up a spacer rod to keep them parallel.


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## ShawnR

rabler said:


> @ShawnR,
> Yes, drawing it up in FreeCad was quite a task, but I'm now comfortable enough with FreeCad basics to use it for other things so I'll count that as success, even if I'm still not proficient.  I'm going to use a 2HP AC motor with a VFD.   Casting is not (at least yet) in my skill set.  The smaller wheels I will turn out of some 3" aluminum stock, the larger drive wheel I have a short piece of aluminum 1/2" wall pipe 6" OD, and am looking at welding in 5" disc to make the center that will bolt to a steel hub.  Design drawings from FreeCad below.



I am still working on 1 piece drawings in FreeCAD. I was just getting to the point learning assemblies last year when I got distracted, and, well, tried to do a basic drawing the other day and had to go back to tutorials to get started again. 

Your drive wheel will be like mine, sort of. The treadmill motor had a heavy flywheel on it. I got a piece of 6 pipe as you did, and and bored it and turned it as best I could. I then turned the flywheel down to, a "large" press fit, I mean, more than normal. I read somewhere that the pipe will expand a lot with heat. It was winter here so the flywheel went into the snow bank and the torches hit the pipe. I think the difference was like 10 thou. I put a couple of pieces of 3/4" tool bits into the center of the pipe and, literally, dropped the flywheel in. Actually, did it twice. The first time, it landed crooked. I was lucky to get it out. Second time went well. The whole operation on the lathe was kind of iffy, due to the size of my chuck but I was very very careful and went slow.

The wheel is sized, sort of so that the tach displays half of the surface speed. If I added a second magnet, the tach would be surface speed but I can usually handle x2  (usually..;-) ) And really, after using it, actual speeds are general anyways. It can go too fast.

If you are interested, the build is here.


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## rabler

ShawnR said:


> Your drive wheel will be like mine, sort of. The treadmill motor had a heavy flywheel on it. I got a piece of 6 pipe as you did, and and bored it and turned it as best I could. I then turned the flywheel down to, a "large" press fit, I mean, more than normal. I read somewhere that the pipe will expand a lot with heat. It was winter here so the flywheel went into the snow bank and the torches hit the pipe. I think the difference was like 10 thou. I put a couple of pieces of 3/4" tool bits into the center of the pipe and, literally, dropped the flywheel in. Actually, did it twice. The first time, it landed crooked. I was lucky to get it out. Second time went well. The whole operation on the lathe was kind of iffy, due to the size of my chuck but I was very very careful and went slow.


Hadn't really thought about press fit, but not an option for me at this point as I have the material for the weld up.  My TIG welder only hits 210 amps, and with a 1/2" thick tube wall plus a 1" thick center, I doubt the TIG welder will put out enough heat to properly weld that.  I was looking at aluminum brazing with aluminum/zinc rod, but a fellow member from here offered to let me try his MIG spool gun.

Anyway, need to finish the motor base and pivot-base pieces first.


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## rabler

Got the pivot arms welded on.
First picture shows the detail of how the arm that holds the front platen and rollers is tapered to fit in.  It will get slotted for a clamp bolt and other details, so it is barely more than rough stock  (2"x2" CRS).  That makes a heavy/solid arm.    I'm thinking I could have extended the pivot arm up a bit to act as a hard stop, but the taper is only milled into that arm enough for it to go that far back anyway.   The square tube is a piece of scrap that is proxy for the arm that holds the table, although that will also be a piece of square tube.  The second picture shows more or less the whole assembly so far, fresh from welding and still warm.


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## rabler

Trying to create the mounting piece for the disc table.  



 Plan was to weld up 4 pieces into a square tube with an inside surface of 2" square.  So a cut some pieces of hot rolled, milled the inside face.  Then I clamped them up to a 2" square tube and welded.  Didn't want to penetrate to deeply to avoid welding it to the inside tube. 

The first attempt failed as after I welded it I went to clean it up on the mill my welds were way too shallow.  If you open the thumbnail below you can see the seem opened up on the piece on the right.  I milled up some more pieces, beveled and gapped the welds a bit, and went a bit hotter on the MIG.   More pics when I get it cleaned up.


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## rabler

Ok, this part is more or less complete, except for a hole for each arm to hold it in the guides, and a hole through the top right ear for the spring cylinger.  Painting will wait for everything to be finished.  This base is the most complicated part by far in this design.  Everything else is built up on this.    Lots of welding, always interesting to mix welding and machining.  This part is mostly built out of 3/8" HRS, except the arm guides which are 2" x .75" CRS.  This isn't going to be a light weight tool.


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## Just for fun

Looking good so far!


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## extropic

I'm late to the party but have punched "watch".

Your having the larger, heavier duty machines fits. You build things SOLID.
What diameter will the disc be?

Looking very good.

Regarding your comment about the rotary table needing a rebuild. It's my experience that many RTs have the worm mounted in an eccentric which makes backlash adjustment very easy. Maybe you can minimize the excessive backlash without a rebuild.

You're a pilot, right? Yaw, pitch, roll. Your mill head doesn't have pitch (commonly nod in milling machines) adjustability, but does have roll.  LOL


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## woodchucker

rabler said:


> Ok, this part is more or less complete, except for a hole for each arm to hold it in the guides, and a hole through the top right ear for the spring cylinger.  Painting will wait for everything to be finished.  This base is the most complicated part by far in this design.  Everything else is built up on this.    Lots of welding, always interesting to mix welding and machining.  This part is mostly built out of 3/8" HRS, except the arm guides which are 2" x .75" CRS.  This isn't going to be a light weight tool.
> View attachment 393329
> View attachment 393330
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> View attachment 393331
> View attachment 393332
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> View attachment 393333


looking good. for some reason I am not getting notification on this... today was the first notification only a moment ago, all the other posts have gone by without a single notification... 

Looks good, I like the use of light stitch welds. Rarely a need for full length welds on something like this. There's not a lot of torque, pressure on these.


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## woodchucker

rabler said:


> @Janderso
> Pics incoming!
> Here's welding the supports for the arms to the motor base.  First I opened the plug weld holes up to 3/4" most of the way through, left the 3/8" hole at the bottom.  I clamped up the arms and the support brackets to the base to get a good fit, and then welded. Not delighted with this weld job. I welded these with my MIG box, I should have used the TIG so I could back off on the power near the top and fill them without undercutting.  I did a rough milling pass to clean up the welds.  I guess a bit of auto body putty and it will look great
> 
> Last picture is one of the pivot arms clamped into place, welding both of those in will be next but I want to set up a spacer rod to keep them parallel.
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> View attachment 392848
> View attachment 392850
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> View attachment 392849
> View attachment 392851
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> View attachment 392852


so you didn't pin any of these before welding, you relied on clamping up?  I would be nervous doing that. With my welding and jigging, I might wind up doing many repairs to the alignment.


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## rabler

@extropic
The design is for a 9" disc.  Certainly enough HP  (2 HP 3 phase motor w/ VFD) to go with a larger disc but the disc is mounted directly on the motor bearings, and the disc is sort of an afterthought, not the primary purpose.  "Because I can" kind of thing.

Yep, I have a mill with no elevator (pitch).   Use to own a plane and CFI/II, have’t flown in more than a decade due to medical issues


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## woodchucker

Randall, This is a 1hp 12" sander , so you have way more hp than a 9








						Rockwell Model 31-122 12" Disc Sander
					

Rockwell Model 31-122 12" Disc Sander




					bid.ajwillnerauctions.com


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## rabler

woodchucker said:


> so you didn't pin any of these before welding, you relied on clamping up?  I would be nervous doing that. With my welding and jigging, I might wind up doing many repairs to the alignment.


I did the plug welds first.  Those tend to cause a lot less  problems with distortion.


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## rabler

woodchucker said:


> Randall, This is a 1hp 12" sander , so you have way more hp than a 9
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> Rockwell Model 31-122 12" Disc Sander
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> Rockwell Model 31-122 12" Disc Sander
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> bid.ajwillnerauctions.com


True.  The disc sander is not the primary purpose here, the belt is.  The constraint on the disc is really that the table for the disc is limited to one support arm, otherwise it makes the 2x72 belt captive.  With that setup as the table gets larger it gets less stable.  Also the disc is completely dependent on the motor bearings as designed, larger disc means more stress on those.


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## woodchucker

rabler said:


> True.  The disc sander is not the primary purpose here, the belt is.  The constraint on the disc is really that the table for the disc is limited to one support arm, otherwise it makes the 2x72 belt captive.  With that setup as the table gets larger it gets less stable.  Also the disc is completely dependent on the motor bearings as designed, larger disc means more stress on those.


just saying. the delta is also a direct drive. I hear you on the belt being captive.  I probably would rather have a dedicated machine for both.


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## rabler

woodchucker said:


> just saying. the delta is also a direct drive. I hear you on the belt being captive.  I probably would rather have a dedicated machine for both.


I posted a thread debating whether to even includ the disc and am not sure how useful it’ll be.  A big issue is there isn’t a shield around this disc.  If I find the disc to be at all useful I’ll probably buy a separate one.  This is more of a “because I can” feature.


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## woodchucker

rabler said:


> I posted a thread debating whether to even includ the disc and am not sure how useful it’ll be.  The big issue is there isn’t a shield around this disc.  If I find the disc to be at all useful I’ll probably buy a separate one.  This is more of a “because I can” feature.


I have a 6x48, with a disc 9". no shield I had to make the disc  it was missing. I cut through my fingers nicely, I hit the edge of the disc and sliced deeply onto the tops of 2 fingers.. deeply since there's not a lot of meat there to begin with.  I removed the disc and only put it on when I need it.  I've never had a problem with any of my belt sanders...   Think of the disc as a tablesaw blade with finer teeth (sandpaper and metal)


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## ShawnR

rabler said:


> I posted a thread debating whether to even includ the disc and am not sure how useful it’ll be.  A big issue is there isn’t a shield around this disc.  If I find the disc to be at all useful I’ll probably buy a separate one.  This is more of a “because I can” feature.


Years ago, Sears used to sell a metal disc that you mount on a table saw which was to hold a 10" sanding disc. I put it on an arbor and the end of a small motor, 1/4 or 1/2 hp, and then built a box around it. That thing is very handy, gets used lots and nice to have set up all of the time. Pretty simple project. Back then, I only worked with wood. Granted, for what it is, that is probably what I would do again. I will try to get a photo later.

So I guess I am suggesting build or buy a separate one. Seeing as my 2x72 tilts, that disc would be going horizontal too....looks dangerous.


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## woodchucker

ShawnR said:


> Years ago, Sears used to sell a metal disc that you mount on a table saw which was to hold a 10" sanding disc. I put it on an arbor and the end of a small motor, 1/4 or 1/2 hp, and then built a box around it. That thing is very handy, gets used lots and nice to have set up all of the time. Pretty simple project. Back then, I only worked with wood. Granted, for what it is, that is probably what I would do again. I will try to get a photo later.
> 
> So I guess I am suggesting build or buy a separate one. Seeing as my 2x72 tilts, that disc would be going horizontal too....looks dangerous.


those are still sold by the wood working retailers, and online retailers.


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## ShawnR

This is the sander. I know not of the standards these machining forums usually show, but it does work well. Just a simple option for you.


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## rabler

Keeping with the lots of pictures and progress updates theme, here is the millwork on the arm that holds the front two rollers and platten.
I opted to change the specs.  The slot was designed as 3" long, I cut 4".  Slightly longer adjustment range, although at full extension that is only going to be 2" of overlap in the arm guides shown in the previous piece, so not really well supported.

I made this out of 2" x 2" solid CRS bar, in part because I had bought 20' of it back when steel was affordable.

Milling the 1/4" by 4" long by 2" deep slot was time consuming.  I used a 1/4" drill and drilled a series of holes first.   I managed to break off a 1/4" drill in the process.  Then set up a nice new 1/4" carbide rougher in my mill to cut slot, using about .300 depth at a pass.  Unfortunately on the second pass there was a piece of the 1/4" drill  left in there and that snapped the rougher.  Sigh.  I didn't want to unclamp the piece and get it out where I could see it and invert it, and paid the price.

Between compressed air, and a scribe, I dug the drill fragment out and went to work with a 1/4" carbide extended length finishing mill to cut the rest of the slot, cutting at about .25" depth of cut and a slower feed.

I also shortened the arm by .5" after reviewing the perimeter belt length measurements.  It matters whether the platten is set to straight vertical or tilted, decided a I needed just a little shorter in the total range.  It's really a cosmetic feature, but I still need to set this up on the rotary table and round off the end.  I'll use the bandsaw first to get it in the ballpark.


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## woodchucker

that's going to be heavy. How much does that one piece weigh about?  I guess mass is good for what it's doing. But moving that machine will require a fork lift..


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## rabler

woodchucker said:


> that's going to be heavy. How much does that one piece weigh about?  I guess mass is good for what it's doing. But moving that machine will require a fork lift..


Ayup.  But, as you know, I have forks for the loader on my tractor  
Steel is just a tad over 1/4 pound per cubic inch.  13.5" long, so about 14 pounds for this piece.
I'm hoping the mass of this arm helps keep vibration out of the front platten and rollers.  I'm making the second arm, for the table, out of square tube so that part won't be of the same mass.

I figure when it's done it'll get mounted on my preferred stand, a piece of 3" tube going into a hexagon frame filled with concrete.  I may even use two 60lb bags for this one to make a stable base.


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## rabler

The belt grinder build continues.  I'm finding this project to be a good match/challenge to my machining skills, I certainly have a lot to learn.

I had recently met another HM'er who lives about an hour away.  Visited yesterday with a project in mind.  I wanted to build the drive wheel for my belt grinder.  Design calls for a 6" wheel, and I figured aluminum would be a good material to keep the rotating mass somewhat limited.  I'm making the drive wheel a bit wider than the belt, 2.5", just to give a little extra width for belt tracking.  Just turn that out on the lathe, right? So a chunk of 6" round by 3" long 6061 is how much?  Onlinemetals wants $350+ for a 1' piece of 6" round.  Hmm.  McMaster wanted about $20 for a 3" long piece of 1/2" wall 6" aluminum tube, and about another $20 for a 5" diameter 1" thick aluminum disc.  Well, I just need to join those together and I'll have a wheel.  



The aluminum part is the light gray component above, the brownish center hub will be broached to match the motor key, and threaded to allow the backplate for the 9" disk sander to screw into it.  I had initially thought about TIG brazing those two aluminum components, my TIG goes to about 200A with air cooled torches so I was skeptical that I'd be able to actually weld it.  But @Dan Krager  offerred to let me try his MIG spool gun, which he had brand new still in the case.  We messed around with some aluminum coupons until we got something that at least showed some strength under a vice and hammer test, basically cranking that MIG welder to its max output, and getting the technique down for the spray transfer weld.  I wouldn't want to actually post a picture of what the welds looked like  

But with a little cleanup in the lathe, I got something that doesn't look bad.   I had chamfered the edge of the aluminum disc about 1/4" deep on each side before welding it to give some penetration.  I am certain the weld doesn't go all the way through the 1" thick disc, but it filled the chamfer nicely.   Pictured here is turning the first side as well as facing the center, then flipping it to work on the other side after drilling and boring the 1.75" center hole.




I'll need to drill and tap the 4 bolt holes on the mill.  Then I'll make the center hub (brown part).  When the hub is made up, I'm thinking I'll chuck the whole assembly back in the lathe and take a couple of finishing passes to true to whole assembly up as concentric as possible.

Here's a few extra pictures ('cuz we all love pictures).  The aluminum wheel next to the heavy steel platten arm, and the whole thing so far.


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## ShawnR

That looks Great Randall! She is going to be a beaut of a sander! Thanks for the photos!


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## Just for fun

Nice job,  As Shawn said,  Thanks for the photos!


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## rabler

After turning this, I decided I needed a bit better boring bar and ordered a Tungaloy 3/4” shank S12-SCLCR-3 boring bar and some matching iscar nonferrous inserts.  Often I’m boring at >1” diameter, and using a 1/2” dia boring bar, needed about 2” extension for this today and was struggling a bit with chatter, the boring bar was singing.  Besides, handy to keep a couple of similar boring bars, one with steel inserts and one with aluminum.  Of course that means more toolholders, and my toolholder stand at the lathe is already full.  The rabbit hole never ends …

Is it silly that I keep a spreadsheet with a list of insert tooling and inserts to keep track of them?


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## paradox_pete

rabler said:


> So a chunk of 6" round by 3" long 6061 is how much?


Ebay can be a good place to find offcuts for stuff like this.  For instance:









						6" ALUMINUM 6061 ROUND ROD 3.2" LONG T6511 Solid Extruded Lathe Bar Stock New  | eBay
					

You are buying 1 piece of 6.00" OD 6061 T6511 Aluminum Solid Round Rod 3.2" long -0 to +.07" cut new. This is extruded bar not sanded or polished and may have scratches from handling.



					www.ebay.com


----------



## rabler

paradox_pete said:


> Ebay can be a good place to find offcuts for stuff like this.  For instance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6" ALUMINUM 6061 ROUND ROD 3.2" LONG T6511 Solid Extruded Lathe Bar Stock New  | eBay
> 
> 
> You are buying 1 piece of 6.00" OD 6061 T6511 Aluminum Solid Round Rod 3.2" long -0 to +.07" cut new. This is extruded bar not sanded or polished and may have scratches from handling.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


Ha!  Ironically @woodchucker pointed out the same ebay vendor in a DM.  Yeah, that would have been an easier approach, so if I go this route again I’ll take advantage of that.  The welding was worth doing once, as the problem gets harder to solve with bigger and bigger parts.


----------



## extropic

rabler said:


> Is it silly that I keep a spreadsheet with a list of insert tooling and inserts to keep track of them?


 Not silly, organized. My bet is that the spreadsheet includes where you bought them, the price and date.

My brain refuses to memorize the codes for all the tool holder/insert combinations. I keep a chart handy.


----------



## rabler

extropic said:


> Not silly, organized. My bet is that the spreadsheet includes where you bought them, the price and date.
> 
> My brain refuses to memorize the codes for all the tool holder/insert combinations. I keep a chart handy.


No!  Not the price!  I don't want to know how much I've spent going down this rabbit hole.    (Quaking in terror)

Yeah, too many codes and lists.  I pull out the sharpie and mark the box of inserts with S, or AL (steel or aluminum).  Otherwise I'm forever looking up which insert I need.  HSS at least I can see the tool angles.


----------



## rabler

A little more progress today.  Got the arm done that holds the table.  Started on the upright piece that holds the two front rollers and the platten.  Bandsawed it to rough shape.  Started drilling holes.  Once I get all the holes done I’ll clean up the rest of the perimeter, and cut the pivot slot, both of which will require using the rotary table.

Posting these from the phone, hopefully tomorrow I can add the CAD pics to match.









I have one piece that calls for a 2.5 inch round piece of steel, part of the hub on the motor.  Decided to buy a 12’ stick of 3” 1018 for the stockpile.


----------



## woodchucker

Randal, can you upload higher res images? Those are as big as they go and I can't see the detail.

Did the crew show up today? or is Saturday a day off?


----------



## rabler

woodchucker said:


> Randal, can you upload higher res images? Those are as big as they go and I can't see the detail.
> 
> Did the crew show up today? or is Saturday a day off?


Done.  I guess uploading cell pics while sitting in the hot tub is error prone.


----------



## rabler

Here's the CAD representation of those two parts.


----------



## rabler

I'm certainly picture bombing this thread, but I do enjoy the ability to use a CAD model to visualize both progress and work to be done.
Here's my model with the parts done or in progress so far shown as solid, and the parts to be built as wireframes.  Once I finish the dark green part, I'm going to have to move on to getting the base built so this thing stands decently.  It is getting heavy enough to not be convenient to just move it around as needed on a table for assembly.


----------



## Just for fun

I'm enjoying your build,  thanks for the photo bomb.

Tim


----------



## rabler

Got this part done.  Cutting slots on this little rotary table is a challenge.  3/8” hot rolled, with a 3/8” wide slot using a carbide rougher.  Made the slot and then smoothed out the back arc.  Looking forward to having the new shop, I will then be able to use the massive 16” rotary table instead of this little 6”.  The fixture plate on top is 12” x 12”.




I debated going over it with a face mill, but it will get painted so I just sanded it to get the scale off.



The shafts for the front rollers still need to be welded in.  The 3/4” bolt/nut holding the latest part to the arm will get replaced with something a little fancier.


----------



## rabler

Next steps -
1) Build the pivoting base so I can bolt this thing down to something stable.   The hole in the side (only needed on one side really) will be for a spring pin to lock the pivot in place.  I may need to think about this a bit too, I doubt the pivot will see a lot of motion.  The center shaft for the grinder to pivot on is 3/4" diameter.  The ears on the above part are 3/8" thick, that strikes me as a fairly high pressure area and I may want to add some sort of bushing to increase the contact area to reduce wear/extend life.   I'm inclined to avoid grease as it'll just hold grindings.

 Some sort of bolt holes will go in the bottom of this piece:






2) Build the three rollers, need two of them to mount on the front




I'm running out of 3/8" x 6 hot roll which most of this is made out of, including that pivot base.   I ordered another 20' stick to be delivered in a week or so.    I also need that material for the new building as bases for the bridge crane legs, so I'll use plenty of it.  I'd really like another one of the Glacern 45 degree face mills, so I can keep one set up for aluminum and one for steel.  Swapping inserts is tedious.  But the new shop, and wiring, is going to crimp my budget for a while.

The rollers (belt wheels) are somewhat complicated in terms of parts count.  And not fully illustrated.  Three parts to be built, the aluminum roller, the center shaft, and the bushing.  In addition there will be two R12 bearings per roller.    As an artifact of learning freecad, the bushing is illustrated as an integral part of the central shaft, but will be a separate bushing/collar(?)  between the bearings.  Point is when the retaining bolt on he end is tightened down, pressure should go through the inner race of the bearings and through that bushing.  The aluminum wheel should have just a bit (i.e., a few thou) of axial play on the bearings so that there is not an axial preload on those bearings.  I  think this is the right way to do this ...

The central shaft will get plug welded into the dark green arm.  I'll need to fixture that pretty carefully as they need to be perpendicular to the face or the belt won't run true.

I did order a new boring bar and some ccgt32 aluminum inserts to cut those rollers, waiting on those.   I can go ahead and make the wheel shaft and bushing (1018), beyond that I'm waiting on tooling and material orders.


----------



## rabler

Got on the lathe to do some work on the rollers (wheels) for the belt.  This is actually attempt number two  


I was trying to cut these pieces out of a 4" overall piece of 1.5" dia 1018.    It's shown here with one bearing on it.




Here's the CAD representation of the whole thing, the picture above is just the first two parts on the lower left.  I'm waiting on a new boring bar and some aluminum CCGT inserts to do the wheels.






I'm really not happy with the finish on the above.  I need to cut it again.  Not a very complext part, although three shoulders.




Here's the part chucked up in the lathe, almost done.  Only left 1" of extra length to hold in the chuck.   You can see here I'm cutting with a left hand tool, and that means I can't get right up to the chuck as I try to turn the long area down to .75" dia.   Long, but the bearings ride on opposing ends of this region, so this is where hitting the numbers matter.    Obviously I just need to swap to a right hand tool.  I do like this Monarch CK lathe, but it is an old girl, she's been around 76 years, and the she's getting really loose in the undercarriage.  This means cutting left to right vs right to left has about a 0.011 difference in cut depth diameter.   This makes it difficult to finish to numbers in a area where your cutting between two shoulders, or between a shoulder and a chuck and need to swap tools.  (Ok, I'm blaming the tool not the operator which is lame, but it is what it is, I'm learning).  IIRC a 1.5" piece of stock will go through the spindle bore, so I'm going to try using a long blank and parting off as I go, that way I can bring the left side of the piece out another inch or so, allowing my finishing pass to be made with one tool.

Ultimately when the new shop gets done, I'll get the 612 in service and then I can go to work on putting turcite on the carriage on this one.


----------



## rabler

Not a whole lot of progress.  Shattered a tooth today so feeling off, not the right mindset to work around machinery.  I'm waiting for some CCGT inserts to come in, bad weather today (snow on top of freezing rain) and unlikely to clear out tomorrow, so I may be waiting a while.  Unfortunately the dentist office was also closed due to the bad weather, so it will be Monday before I can even get a hold of them to schedule something.

I did get a picture of the setup to cut the little axles I was struggling with above.  Turns out 1.5" doesn't go through my spindle.  Monarchs are not great about large spindle bores.  So I had to use the steady rest.


Lathe tool question, what tool works well for plunging in between shoulders?  (@davidpbest ??).    I tried my MSDNN with SNMG inserts, but that chatters pretty quickly, was hard to get more than a .020 cut depth in a pass.  Might need a different insert.  Did better stepping in alternating the left and right hand WNMG holders, but have to swap those out frequently as they don't plunge very far before the tool itself hits the stock.   Thinking of trying (buying)  a SCMCN tool with CCGT inserts.  I did grind a 5/8" piece of HSS today into a rougher, but didn't feel up to actually putting it to the test.


Yesterday I also bandsawed out the base for the beginnings of the pivot base shown in CAD a couple posts back.  Someone earlier asked how I was roughing out the material so I'm including these pictures.  My metal delivery yesterday included another 20' of 3/8" x 6" A36, so I have plenty of material to work with.


----------



## davidpbest

rabler said:


> View attachment 395007
> 
> Lathe tool question, what tool works well for plunging in between shoulders?  (@davidpbest ??).    I tried my MSDNN with SNMG inserts, but that chatters pretty quickly, was hard to get more than a .020 cut depth in a pass.  Might need a different insert.  Did better stepping in alternating the left and right hand WNMG holders, but have to swap those out frequently as they don't plunge very far before the tool itself hits the stock.   Thinking of trying (buying)  a SCMCN tool with CCGT inserts.  I did grind a 5/8" piece of HSS today into a rougher, but didn't feel up to actually putting it to the test.


If I were machining to square shoulders on both sides, and with a steady rest involved, I would shy away from the trigon (WNMG) tooling because the insert is mounted with a negative rake and adds a significant amount of tool pressure toward the spindle centerline.  My first choice would be to use a right- and left-handed tool with CNMG inserts - this will be freer cutting than the WNMG and have less tool pressure. With a neutral hand tool like your MSDNN or the SCMCN you're thinking of getting, you can't machine to a square shoulder with either of those tools, so you'd be left trying to cut the shoulders with a parting or grooving tool. Hope this helps.


----------



## rabler

davidpbest said:


> If I were machining to square shoulders on both sides, and with a steady rest involved, I would shy away from the trigon (WNMG) tooling because the insert is mounted with a negative rake and adds a significant amount of tool pressure toward the spindle centerline.  My first choice would be to use a right- and left-handed tool with CNMG inserts - this will be freer cutting than the WNMG and have less tool pressure. With a neutral hand tool like your MSDNN or the SCMCN you're thinking of getting, you can't machine to a square shoulder with either of those tools, so you'd be left trying to cut the shoulders with a parting or grooving tool. Hope this helps.


I do have the left and right cnmg tools and used them for finishing.  I’m cutting a fairly short axial distance between shoulders. The problem is L/R tools have a very limited plunge depth even with multiple axial passes, before the other corner of the toolholder interferes.  Was hoping to rough out a wide v groove first with the neutral tool, then finish (essentially a combination of facing and turning cuts) the shoulders with the cnmg.  Should be able to do that without needing to repeated swap between left and right tools.  Just a matter of reducing tool changes.

Note that while I say plunge and v groove, I’m still doing some component of axial (turning) cuts.  I was surprised how little I could plunge the snmg radially, only about .010 DOC (.020 off the diameter) before needing an axial pass or it chattered.  I may need to investigate my snmg inserts.  After reading your book I have moved to name brand inserts but now I’m wondering if those are some older off-brand left-overs.  But I was hoping a ground edge insert (ccgt) would do a bit better than a molded edge snmg.


----------



## davidpbest

rabler said:


> I do have the left and right cnmg tools and used them for finishing.  I’m cutting a fairly short axial distance between shoulders. The problem is L/R tools have a very limited plunge depth even with multiple axial passes, before the other corner of the toolholder interferes.  Was hoping to rough out a wide v groove first with the neutral tool, then finish (essentially a combination of facing and turning cuts) the shoulders with the cnmg.  Should be able to do that without needing to repeated swap between left and right tools.  Just a matter of reducing tool changes.
> 
> Note that while I say plunge and v groove, I’m still doing some component of axial (turning) cuts.  I was surprised how little I could plunge the snmg radially, only about .010 DOC (.020 off the diameter) before needing an axial pass or it chattered.  I may need to investigate my snmg inserts.  After reading your book I have moved to name brand inserts but now I’m wondering if those are some older off-brand left-overs.  But I was hoping a ground edge insert (ccgt) would do a bit better than a molded edge snmg.


Sorry, I misunderstood that "plunge depth" was your chief concern.  The turning/facing tools are not optimized around maximizing plunge depth. If you want a more significant plunge depth, I would be selecting a rigid grooving tool such as a Kennametal Top Notch.  _*This version*_ will plunge to 0.125" and if you equip it with a full radius insert (*like this*) you can plunge in and move the tool laterally. The same tool can be used for threading and parting-off to 0.150" depth. See p70-72 in my book. You'd need to clean up the square shoulders once finished using a right- and left-handed CCMT tool, or a parting blade.


----------



## rabler

davidpbest said:


> Sorry, I misunderstood that "plunge depth" was your chief concern.  The turning/facing tools are not optimized around maximizing plunge depth. If you want a more significant plunge depth, I would be selecting a rigid grooving tool such as a Kennametal Top Notch.  _*This version*_ will plunge to 0.125" and if you equip it with a full radius insert (*like this*) you can plunge in and move the tool laterally. The same tool can be used for threading and parting-off to 0.150" depth. See p70-72 in my book. You'd need to clean up the square shoulders once finished using a right- and left-handed CCMT tool, or a parting blade.


Thanks David, I'll look into that.  It would have made that operation a lot simpler.


----------



## rabler

Another photo bomb.

Made the base for it today.  Started by one of those fixturing setups that looks like something of a kludge.  Rotary table on the mill.  Fixture plate on the rotary table.  Bandsawed parts stacked together on top of 123 blocks.  Edge finder at each layer to keep everything on center of the rotary table.  Started by roughing the straight edge along the bottom, as I need those to be the right distance from the 3/4" pivot shaft hole.  Then drilled that pivot shaft hole, and then the hole for the locking pin.





Back to the rougher and smoothed out the outer radius, a cosmetic feature.



Then over to the grinder to clean up the rest of the sides, then the upside down handheld belt sander (gee, I need belt grinder) to clean it up a little bit before welding.







My CAD drawings call for a smaller base plate (4" x 8.5"), I went with 6" x 10" to give it a little more stability.  I'm using 6" wide material, and welding right at the end is a little more difficult.  So there may have been some laziness (fabrication enhancements) to that design mod.  I cut a piece of scrap tube and clamped it between these pieces at the desired spacing, and did my best to get it square, tacking it up first and re-checking.








Got the shaft drilled and tapped for 3/8" bolts using the lathe, tapped out the locking pin hole, and put it all together.


----------



## woodchucker

davidpbest said:


> If I were machining to square shoulders on both sides, and with a steady rest involved, I would shy away from the trigon (WNMG) tooling because the insert is mounted with a negative rake and adds a significant amount of tool pressure toward the spindle centerline.  My first choice would be to use a right- and left-handed tool with CNMG inserts - this will be freer cutting than the WNMG and have less tool pressure. With a neutral hand tool like your MSDNN or the SCMCN you're thinking of getting, you can't machine to a square shoulder with either of those tools, so you'd be left trying to cut the shoulders with a parting or grooving tool. Hope this helps.


David, isn't a cnmg negative rake as well?
If you were looking to plunge , why not plunge with a parting tool?

I agree, I don't think a WNMG is a plunging cutter. My friend and his co-workers call it a wiper. I like the wnmg for it's finish..
I think the rhombics (diamond shaped) work well working upto a shoulder and into it.
They plunge well, but not great. You need to plunge, then cut the opposite way to relieve the cutting area.  I started wondering why Keith Rucker was using them pretty much full time. They are supposedly finishing inserts, but they work well at shoulder cuts. I believe Keith is using a V, I am using a D,   I think an F would work too.


----------



## rabler

woodchucker said:


> If you were looking to plunge , why not plunge with a parting tool?


Results in too narrow of a slot.  You can't cut axially with a regular parting tool, so if you need a 1.5" wide groove between shoulders, it doesn't really help, you can't get something like a CCMT tool into the resulting slot.


----------



## davidpbest

woodchucker said:


> David, isn't a cnmg negative rake as well?
> If you were looking to plunge , why not plunge with a parting tool?


Yes, it is.  CCMT is what I meant - sorry, I'm blurry from 24 hours traveling.  On such a small diameter shaft with a steady rest, a negative rake toolholder is not ideal - I'd avoid WNMG and CNMG and DNMG for this application.  

A "wiper" is a feature of the cutting edge next to the nose radius, and really has nothing to do with the geometric shape of the insert.  Some WNMG inserts (and other shapes also) have a wiper, some do not.  It is essentially a small flat section on the insert between the long flat side and the nose radius.  It can improve surface finish and allow for higher feed rates.  But this is getting pretty specialized.  




You could plunge with a parting tool, but you are running a big risk if you start moving that same tool laterally along the carriage travel.  A grooving tool with a large full nose radius is essentially a parting tool with a very short stick-out and when the insert has a full radius it can be traversed side to side as a profiling tool.  That''s why I suggested the Top Notch with full radius insert.


----------



## davidpbest

woodchucker said:


> I think the rhombics (diamond shaped) work well working upto a shoulder and into it.
> They plunge well, but not great. You need to plunge, then cut the opposite way to relieve the cutting area.  I started wondering why Keith Rucker was using them pretty much full time. They are supposedly finishing inserts, but they work well at shoulder cuts. I believe Keith is using a V, I am using a D,   I think an F would work too.


The rhombus-shaped inserts (CCMT, CNMG, CPMT) can all be had in roughing and finishing grades - the difference being the sharpness of the cutting edge, the shape of the chip breaker, and the base material and coatings that are applied.


----------



## woodchucker

rabler said:


> Results in too narrow of a slot.  You can't cut axially with a regular parting tool, so if you need a 1.5" wide groove between shoulders, it doesn't really help, you can't get something like a CCMT tool into the resulting slot.


yea, you would have to plunge, move , plunge, move, etc. you can move axially with a few thou left to cleanup, but better to use a tool that is meant for turning, and the styles I mentioned above, are thin, and can do it.

I have a HSS that I was given by a machinist when he gave me a kennedy tool box all loaded up. He had made up a wider tool to do what you describe.   It could have been a very wide grooving tool. I don't know, I've never used it.


----------



## woodchucker

davidpbest said:


> Yes, it is.  CCMT is what I meant - sorry, I'm blurry from 24 hours traveling.  On such a small diameter shaft with a steady rest, a negative rake toolholder is not ideal - I'd avoid WNMG and CNMG and DNMG for this application.
> 
> A "wiper" is a feature of the cutting edge next to the nose radius, and really has nothing to do with the geometric shape of the insert.  Some WNMG inserts (and other shapes also) have a wiper, some do not.  It is essentially a small flat section on the insert between the long flat side and the nose radius.  It can improve surface finish and allow for higher feed rates.  But this is getting pretty specialized.
> 
> View attachment 395130
> 
> 
> You could plunge with a parting tool, but you are running a big risk if you start moving that same tool laterally along the carriage travel.  A grooving tool with a large full nose radius is essentially a parting tool with a very short stick-out and when the insert has a full radius it can be traversed side to side as a profiling tool.  That''s why I suggested the Top Notch with full radius insert.


Thanks, I was thinking they were making fun of it, as he, and his co-workers don't like the WNMG. I thought the wiper terminology was a knock..
I like it though.  

Thanks for clarifying the CNMG - CCMT, now that makes sense.


----------



## rabler

The Iscar WNMG inserts actually cut fairly well without chatter or other issues.  1018 so a good finish is another question.  Of course it is a pretty heavy machine.


----------



## jwmay

rabler said:


> You can't cut axially with a regular parting tool, so if you need a 1.5" wide groove between shoulders


I usually just try to read when the experts are consulted. But I figured it's not the end of the world if I disagree. I've used a parting tool for all sorts of turning operations. In, out, left, right, and tapers. I've not had one fail yet. 
Most recently, I cut a tapered boss on which to mount my compound. The professional machinist at work was shocked that it worked.  Claimed he'd never seen anyone turn with a parting tool before.  When the part was complete, I turned the spindle speed UP to 600 something and sliced it off with the same tool. So maybe it's not accepted practice, but it's done nothing but work great for me.


----------



## WobblyHand

jwmay said:


> I usually just try to read when the experts are consulted. But I figured it's not the end of the world if I disagree. I've used a parting tool for all sorts of turning operations. In, out, left, right, and tapers. I've not had one fail yet.
> Most recently, I cut a tapered boss on which to mount my compound. The professional machinist at work was shocked that it worked.  Claimed he'd never seen anyone turn with a parting tool before.  When the part was complete, I turned the spindle speed UP to 600 something and sliced it off with the same tool. So maybe it's not accepted practice, but it's done nothing but work great for me.


Have to agree.  I used a HSS parting tool to make the section between the flanges.  At 1/2" spacing, nothing else would fit.  Can't get greedy, but at moderate DOC it works fine.


----------



## rabler

@jwmay, @WobblyHand
Credit to both of you for being willing and capable of doing delicate precision work.  I have done some shallow DOC turning with a parting tool, and it is certainly possible as you've demonstrated.  As WobblyHand knows, I have big machines and tend towards the hit it with a bigger hammer approach, sometimes slow and patient is the necessary way to get it done.  If I plan on something being time consuming I can usually apporach it that way.  But when I'm not expecting it, I get frustrated and that is when I start missing my numbers being careless.


----------



## StevSmar

I really like how you’ve modelled the parts and then make them. That’s so helpful for me to see how everything goes together.


----------



## jwmay

rabler said:


> Credit to both of you for being willing and capable of doing delicate precision work


Have you seen my lathe? Ha! I don't have much option other than being delicate! But I realize now that you're probably right on. Being that .010-.030" is about as much as I ever take off at a time, the tools are well within their range of being abused in other ways. 
I'm impressed with your project. Thanks very much for sharing it with us.


----------



## rabler

UPS delivered my aluminum CCGT inserts despite the roads still being icy.  I went ahead and cut one roller, and put together the whole assembly.  Aluminum outer wheel still needs a slight crown for belt tracking.


----------



## rabler

@davidpbest
Turns out I already have one Kennametal top notch tool.  This was included with some drill bits in an auction find. Alone it is worth more used than I paid for that lot. It is a size 3 so I’ll buy a matching right hand tool.  A package of inserts gets pricey so it’s worth staying with the same size.



Iscar has some matching inserts for a few $ less than the kennametal inserts on carbidedepot.com.  Any experience with that series?  I’ve generally had good luck with Iscar


----------



## rabler

StevSmar said:


> I really like how you’ve modelled the parts and then make them. That’s so helpful for me to see how everything goes together.


It’s been a fun experience fir me.  This thing is also complicated enough that I would have a hard time doing it on paper.


----------



## Just for fun

So, is this band saw your design from scratch?  It's been fun following along as you make parts and put it together.


----------



## rabler

Just for fun said:


> So, is this band saw your design from scratch?  It's been fun following along as you make parts and put it together.


It is my design although I looked at many others.  But I will be a little surprised if I end up with a bandsaw.   
Glad you’re enjoying the story.


----------



## Just for fun

Oops....  I meant belt sander.  I had bandsaw on my mind.  While I was typing I was talking to my wife about using our bandsaw today.

None the less it looks like you are doing a great job and it has been enjoyable following along.


----------



## davidpbest

rabler said:


> @davidpbest
> Turns out I already have one Kennametal top notch tool.  This was included with some drill bits in an auction find. Alone it is worth more used than I paid for that lot. It is a size 3 so I’ll buy a matching right hand tool.  A package of inserts gets pricey so it’s worth staying with the same size.
> 
> 
> 
> Iscar has some matching inserts for a few $ less than the kennametal inserts on carbidedepot.com.  Any experience with that series?  I’ve generally had good luck with Iscar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 395285
> View attachment 395286


Randal, I don't have any experience with the Iscar Top Notch inserts, but see no reason why they wouldn't be an excellent choice.  Dorian also makes inserts in this style under the brand name Dor Notch - sometimes you can find them on eBay.  That said, I don't immediately see how you'd employ that boring bar for the shouldered operation you were asking about a while back.  Also, keep in mind, that the size 3 Top Notch inserts are available with a variety of threading profiles (including Acme) in case you need to do some serious internal threading.


----------



## rabler

davidpbest said:


> Randal, I don't have any experience with the Iscar Top Notch inserts, but see no reason why they wouldn't be an excellent choice.  Dorian also makes inserts in this style under the brand name Dor Notch - sometimes you can find them on eBay.  That said, I don't immediately see how you'd employ that boring bar for the shouldered operation you were asking about a while back.  Also, keep in mind, that the size 3 Top Notch inserts are available with a variety of threading profiles (including Acme) in case you need to do some serious internal threading.


I’m planning on buying a right hand top notch tool.  The only reason the boring bar is relevant is that it is a size 3 so I’ll buy the size 3 right hand tool for insert compatibility.  Thanks for taking the time to respond to all of the queries, much appreciated.


----------



## davidpbest

rabler said:


> I’m planning on buying a right hand top notch tool.  The only reason the boring bar is relevant is that it is a size 3 so I’ll buy the size 3 right hand tool for insert compatibility.  Thanks for taking the time to respond to all of the queries, much appreciated.


*This is the version* I have, and I like it very much. Very rigid setup with that and the size 3 inserts are very robust.


----------



## rabler

Daily photobomb

I made another shaft to replace the one with the less than satisfactory finish.  Of course it is the last one I need, but I finally got the setup on the lathe in a way that made it relatively easy to cut, using the tools I have on hand.   Thanks to @woodchucker,  @WobblyHand and @jwmay's suggestions, I did use a parting tool to turn about 1/4" of the shaft.  This was certainly more feasible in my mind than turning a whole 2.5" that I was struggling with in the above config with the tailstock and steady rest.

I chucked up a roughly 7" piece of 1.5" dia 1018 in the chuck, with about 4" sticking out, to make a 3" finished part.   I cut the right hand side with a RH WNMG tool, up to the large shoulder.  I used that same tool to turn the large shoulder and about 1" beyond it to finished size (1.25").
Then I used a parting blade to bring about .30" beyond the large shoulder down to .750"  (finished size).   I did that as a combination of multiple plunges, and then some turning at about .005" cut to get it down to size.

The problem with that approach is that I ended up with left side of the shoulder a bit tapered rather than a 90 degree face.  That face is critical as it registers against the base plate to keep the shaft square when welded in, so it needs to be a clean 90 face.  I tried a couple time to plunge the parting tool in, or turn up to the shoulder, right on dimension, but I could see the parting tool start to bend off to the left.  So  I used a left hand hss 1/4" facing tool to fix that shoulder, then back to the parting tool to actually part it.






Then I flipped it around and cleaned up the parted face with CNMG tool.  Note that there was a bit of runout on the part, but just facing the end off that isn't critical.  It did make the deburring chamfers a little sloppy.  Then I flipped it back to sand the part to a final bearing fit.  For anything other than the initial chuck configuration, these where barely tightened in the chuck to prevent damage.  For the sanding pass I put the tailstock in the 3/8" bolt hole that had already been drilled and tapped in the initial setup.    Note sure you can tell the difference in the picture, but the finished and fit on the one on the left works (this last setup), the bad one is on the right.

Anyway, it was an interesting combination of working with both carbide and HSS that made this work, two of each.  Certainly it could have been done with all of one or the other.  In this case it worked out quite well to mix them, the carbide inserts allowed me to quickly get from 1.5" to .75" over a 2.5" length, while the HSS allowed me to get into the narrow working area without extending the stock out farther and using more stock to work into that shoulder.  Certainly it could have been done with either all HSS or all inserts, but this worked best for me.

I think there is a lot of skill and experience to getting a feel for what you can do with each type of tool, so that you can come up with good setups.  Cutting flipped parts always creates questions of runout, a 4 jaw chuck can minimize those, but in this case I cut all of the critical surfaces in the same setup, which regardless of the chuck type, gives you the minimum issues with runout.







I wanted to make sure these shafts were set perpendicular to the plate.  I believe this will be critical to belt tracking.
Bolting these to the plate would allow that.  But I was sort of set on welding it.  Bolt heads would create a clearance issue with the support arm, flat head screws with counter sunk bolts would solve that.  But in my mind there is some merit in learning to combine machining with welding, and to explore the limits of that.  Obviously the problem is welding risks heat and cooling contraction pulling the shafts out of square.  The large shoulders and plug welds help to alleviate that, but help is not "gaurantee".    I made up a 1/8" x 2" piece of flat  (rectangular) stock to support the ends of the shafts, and reference the 3/4" pivot bolt.  I pressed the shafts into the plate and then clamped it to the bench and welded it up.





I used the TIG welder to start the plug welds, first to just tack them and check square, but that was really pushing the top end of my TIG welder and going slow.  So after getting a good root around the perimeter of the plug with the TIG, I filled it in with the MIG.  Here's some pictures after grinder the welds clean.  You can see a bit of undercut on the top of the second picture, so it wouldn't pass a weld inspection but I doubt it'll be an issue here.  I left this cooling, I'll make up the other aluminum wheel and assemble this with wheels on the arm next.


----------



## rabler

Fwiw, my intuition is that the shafts need to be squared to within some fraction of the angle of crown I put on the wheels.  I don’t know if that fraction is 1/2, 1/10 or I’m totally off base?

I plan to use the compound to put a 1 degree taper on the outer 1/3 of each wheel as a starting point.  Trail and error may apply.


----------



## rabler

Hall of shame​I have been working on the hub for the motor, the brownish part in the CAD picture below.  Want to get this true, so the drive pulley runs well.  




I decided to make in out of 12L14, having never used it before but figured now was a good chance (first mistake).  It does cut nice, but it cuts a LOT different than 1018 or A36 that I often work with, much more like aluminum.  I found that my aluminum insert tools worked a lot better than the ones for general purpose steel.  (Both are ISCAR inserts, good quality).  

Normally when I'm cutting something down to size, I'll touch off and set my dails so that "0" is the final cut dimension, at least a close estimate.  For example, this was a 3" diameter piece and I was turning down to 1.750, so 1.250 to remove off the diameter.  My dials are .500 per revolution, so in this case I'd set .250 after touch off.  After switching from steel to aluminum inserts (different tool), I didn't measure and reset my dials.  So I blew right pass my dimensions.  You can see on the left piece where I had a sudden DUH moment and stopped the cut, but I'd already blown the piece.

I tried again over the weekend, had been waiting to get a .875 reamer.   Got the main body turned down to 1.750, hit the number so the larger (gray) aluminum wheel fit on there perfectly (a snug slip fit).  Got that done on Saturday and left it chucked.  Yesterday was not an ideal day, horse colic'ed and had to tube him twice, always a pain and sometimes a struggle even with a bit of tranquilizer.  I hate to use too much of that in cold weather as it messes with their temperature regulation.  Was also trying to get the several other things done for the new building, etc.  Probably too scattered to work in the shop.  But I went ahead and drilled and reamed the center hole to .875, then threaded it at 1.125 x 8TPI.  Threading went really well even if it took a while to cut that large thread.  It's a total of .162 ID cut (or .081 thread depth) for 75% thread, and I did it at .005 cut increments. 

I had done all of that without unchucking the part to try for concentricity.  But when I pulled the part off and tried the fit on the motor, it was sloppy.  Way too sloppy to be usable.  Sigh.  Either my reamer is off size, or more likely the toolpost wasn't square or the drill wondered.  I had wanted to ream it as the total hole depth is 3.75 on a .875 hole, so a bit of a stretch for steel boring bars, don't have any carbide bars.

I suppose I could chuck it up in the 4 jaw, indicate it in, and bore it out for a press bushing.  But I ordered 1' of 12L14, so I'll try one more time and keep the bushing option as plan B

.


----------



## Just for fun

Man,  Sounds like a hell of a weekend.  I hope your horse is doing better today.  Bummer about the flop on the hub.

Looking forward to round two.

Tim


----------



## WobblyHand

I'm going to have to thread a chuck soon.  Heard it said it is wise to make a copy of the thread you are matching to.  Said to help avoid surprises.  I'm going to make a copy of my spindle, just for this reason.    

Don't understand why you reamed out the screw hole in the beginning.  Shouldn't it be good enough to thread if bored?  0.875" is under the minimum minor diameter of a Class 2 internal thread.  According to my copy of Machinery's Handbook, the min minor diameter for 1.125-8 is 0.9897" and the max minor is 1.0045".

Is this hole threaded all the way through?


----------



## rabler

@WobblyHand - good question, here's the CAD drawings of the part.  One end is intended to go over the keyed .875 motor shaft. The other end is threaded to accommodate attaching a disc for the disc sander option.  Not sure I'll even finish that out, but I'm building it to allow for that.  Since both parts are shop made if I do finish out the disc, a disc would be cut to fit this hub.  I didn't consult the handbook, just figured 8 TPI is .125".  The height of an equalateral triangle is sqrt(3)/2 times the base.  Took 2x that for threading both sides,  then 75% thread engagement.  Came up with .963 bore IIRC.  Notes are in the shop.  Since I have to redo it, I'll probably check the Machinery Handbook and try for a proper 1.125x8 thread.


----------



## extropic

I'm guessing that the .875 diameter is to mount on the motor shaft. Keyway and setscrew(s) unknown at this time.

Also guessing, the 1.125-8 thread is the mount for sanding disc (separate feature from the .875 diameter).

I previously noticed a sign that referred to horses, but the previous post was the first time I've read you mention any. You're a busy guy.

Edit: LOL, typing simultaneously.


----------



## extropic

@rabler 

I see the drawing of the hub says "keyway and setscrew". How do you propose to create the keyway.


----------



## rabler

extropic said:


> I'm guessing that the .875 diameter is to mount on the motor shaft. Keyway and setscrew(s) unknown at this time.
> 
> Also guessing, the 1.125-8 thread is the mount for sanding disc (separate feature from the .875 diameter).
> 
> I previously noticed a sign that referred to horses, but the previous post was the first time I've read you mention any. You're a busy guy.
> 
> Edit: LOL, typing simultaneously.


You are spot-on wrt the hub features.  

We have 11 horses, 5 stallions and 6 mares at this point.  We've been having some pretty wild temperature swings, up to 60 degrees last week, then rain and days with highs below freezing.  That weather swing is hard on them, much more so that consistent cold.  Colicy stallion was put out in the pasture again today, exercise is helpful.  I'll probably need to tube another 5 gallons of water and laxative into him tonight.


----------



## rabler

extropic said:


> @rabler
> 
> I see the drawing of the hub says "keyway and setscrew". How do you propose to create the keyway.


I have broaches.  I'll probably need to turn a .875 plug and mill a slot.   The keyway will cross through the threading, so I'll have to see  how much of a mess of the threads that creates.  I had originally thought of using a 1.25 x 8 thread, but was worried that the remaining wall would be too thin.  On looking at the current result, I should probably go back to that thread.


----------



## rabler

rabler said:


> I'll probably need to tube another 5 gallons of water and laxative into him tonight.


"tube" is farm short hand for passing a nasogastric tube into their stomach, and using a stomach pump to load them up with water, potentially with additives.  In older times, (de-)wormer was often tubed into horses.  As you might imagine, the horses resent having something the size of a garden hose shoved in their nose, although they do get more accustom to it.   Care needed to be sure the hose ends up in the stomach and not the lungs, as pumping water or worst yet mineral oil (a traditional laxative) into their lungs is generally fatal.  Had an older stallion some years ago that got tubed daily for a couple of months due to liver problems.  He lived to be 36 years old, another 8-9 years after that treatment.  That was ironically the sire of this one.


----------



## extropic

11 horses !!!  You're a VERY busy guy. 
Do you have to restrain the horse in some manor (squeeze cage?) to introduce the hose?

Good luck with the treatment regimen.


----------



## rabler

extropic said:


> 11 horses !!!  You're a VERY busy guy.
> Do you have to restrain the horse in some manor (squeeze cage?) to introduce the hose?
> 
> Good luck with the treatment regimen.


Usually tranquilize them first pass, and a halter, and let them take you for a bit of a bouncing around at times.   Easier than floating teeth.  Trick is to hit the right nasal passage, some blind sinuses that will bleed profusely if you get in there.   Once you get past the first 6 inches they usually settle down.  Never used squeeze cages on our horses.  'Another story when I use to help a vet in SE Georgia with field surgery.


----------



## extropic

I never expected to learn anything about equine husbandry on H-M.

I'm going to stick to metal/wood working. That way, I'm in very close communication with the owner of the only feelings, illnesses and blood involved, me.

Once again, good luck and let us know when things are flowing normally.


----------



## woodchucker

rabler said:


> "tube" is farm short hand for passing a nasogastric tube into their stomach, and using a stomach pump to load them up with water, potentially with additives.  In older times, (de-)wormer was often tubed into horses.  As you might imagine, the horses resent having something the size of a garden hose shoved in their nose, although they do get more accustom to it.   Care needed to be sure the hose ends up in the stomach and not the lungs, as pumping water or worst yet mineral oil (a traditional laxative) into their lungs is generally fatal.  Had an older stallion some years ago that got tubed daily for a couple of months due to liver problems.  He lived to be 36 years old, another 8-9 years after that treatment.  That was ironically the sire of this one.


I thought that they were tubed from the rear end as in an enema to get their system going. I guess I saw that in a mash episode back in the 80s. Going through the nose has to be harder on them.


----------



## Gnpenning

woodchucker said:


> I thought that they were tubed from the rear end as in an enema to get their system going. I guess I saw that in a mash episode back in the 80s. Going through the nose has to be harder on them.


Common to go through the rectum to check for blockage or a twisted gut. Colic can be a catch all phrase. Rablers stud sounds like  colic. Sorry to hear it. Is this the first time?

When you AI horses or cattle you guide the tube by having a hand/arm in the rectum.

What breed or breeds of horses?

Love the build.


----------



## rabler

Stallion has recovered fine.  These bad weather intestinal blockages (aka colic) tend to have a better prognosis than general colic, but I treat them aggressively rather than waiting for them to get severe, but I can treat much of that myself with out dragging in a vet.  Emergency farm calls are expensive so people often wait hoping things resolve. If they get badly dehydrated I’ll go straight to IV which rehydrates faster.  Tubing allows administering a laxative so has advantages.

Rectal palpitation does allow some diagnoses in colic, and can sometimes help depending on where the blockage occurs.  It also carries a risk of perforating the intestines which is fatal, so I generally don’t risk it.  Doesn’t involve a tube though, just manual, and an arm length surgical glove.  

You don’t need rectal manipulation for breeding horses unless you’re doing fallopian tube “deep horn” insemination.  Rectal is used to do pregnancy checks either via palpitation or ultrasound.  Normal equine AI just involves vaginal insertion.  We do all of our breedtthat way, and when we lived in S.E. Ga the local vet occasionally brought people over to observe AI.

We have dessert Arabians, and used to breed them although at this point we’re scaling back, mostly via attrition, and neither of us ride anymore, so they are yard ornaments to a large extent.


----------



## BGHansen

rabler said:


> Rectal palpitation does allow some diagnoses in colic, and can sometimes help depending on where the blockage occurs.  It also carries a risk of perforating the intestines which is fatal, so I generally don’t risk it.  Doesn’t involve a tube though, just manual, and an arm length surgical glove.
> 
> You don’t need rectal manipulation for breeding horses unless you’re doing fallopian tube “deep horn” insemination.  Rectal is used to do pregnancy checks either via palpitation or ultrasound.  Normal equine AI just involves vaginal insertion.  We do all of our breed that way, and when we lived in S.E. Ga the local vet occasionally brought people over to observe AI.
> 
> We have dessert Arabians, and used to breed them although at this point we’re scaling back, mostly via attrition, and neither of us ride anymore, so they are yard ornaments to a large extent.


Majestic animals, my wife grew up with seven of them.  My in-laws sold them off when the kids went to college; lost the free labor.  My hats off to you for all of the work involved.  I was out when you mentioned an arm-length surgical glove.  Maybe I won't complain so much after my next prostate exam.  Hope I never come back as a horse!

Bruce


----------



## rabler

BGHansen said:


> My hats off to you for all of the work involved.


Wife gets most of the credit, she does the daily chores, feeding, cleaning the barn, passing out hay.  I do tend to work with the stallions some, training them in basic manners and handling.  And I empty the manure spreader, which I need to do today.


----------



## rabler

This project has languished on the sidelines as I work on building the new shop.   The recent combination of missing the machining work, and slowing down on finishing the shop due to a break in the budget, meant I spent a bit of time on it in the last couple of days.  Got the platten and table finished, other than needing a small lip on the bottom of the platten for the glass facing.  Still need to make the tensioner/tracking arm.







The last picture shows the table rotated 90 degrees to facilitate edge sanding.  If you look back through the CAD design, the whole base/motor rotates so that the edge sanding can be done in a horizontal orientation, I currently just have things clamped together so rotating the whole base is not currently trivial.  I need to make the clamping bolts and misc little pieces as well.  This things is going to be incredibly heavy, that's what I get for overbuilding everything.

Anyhow, back to building the new shop.  Got to crawl under the house (crawl space, barely) and hook up the water line.


----------



## WobblyHand

Looks very nice.  That's a problem with a "bomb-proof" design, it's really heavy.  That's the classic story they tell in welding class of the apprentice's toolbox.  So heavy, he couldn't lift it!  Being sturdy and slightly heavy is fine.  Having an apprentice toolbox made from 1/4" plate, is not so good!

Good luck with the water.  Hate doing the crawl space thing...


----------



## rabler

WobblyHand said:


> Looks very nice.  That's a problem with a "bomb-proof" design, it's really heavy.  That's the classic story they tell in welding class of the apprentice's toolbox.  So heavy, he couldn't lift it!  Being sturdy and slightly heavy is fine.  Having an apprentice toolbox made from 1/4" plate, is not so good!
> 
> Good luck with the water.  Hate doing the crawl space thing...


Hadn't heard the apprentice's toolbox story before, that's a great anecdote. 

Got the crawl space part done, lots of cussing involved.  Now just need to put a hydrant at the other end, I'm putting that just outside the shop door, no indoor plumbing.


----------



## woodchucker

rabler said:


> Hadn't heard the apprentice's toolbox story before, that's a great anecdote.
> 
> Got the crawl space part done, lots of cussing involved.  Now just need to put a hydrant at the other end, I'm putting that just outside the shop door, no indoor plumbing.


really, why not? When your hands get so oily, no place to wash them?  I wish I had running water.


----------



## rabler

woodchucker said:


> really, why not? When your hands get so oily, no place to wash them?  I wish I had running water.


That requires a place for the water to go.  A connection to a septic tank would be the typical answer.  The shop is slightly downhill of the septic tank.  Adding "indoor plumbing" changes the tax base too.  Having a water hydrant right outside the door means I can still wash my hands easily enough.


----------



## extropic

The grinder is looking great.

I'll bet that "no indoor plumbing" statement becomes false fairly soon.
I'm predicting a utility sink (probably on the other side of the wall from the hydrant).
Water for grinder pots, coffee making, washing hands, etc. The list could go MUCH longer.
Just plumb the drain into a French drain run and don't dump anything crazy in there (I know you wouldn't).
Protecting that tiny amount of plumbing from freeze damage is too easy to be a problem.

OK, tell me why "no indoor plumbing".


----------



## extropic

Do your Tax appraisers make unannounced visits?

You could run a garden hose, with a quick connect, through a hole in the wall.

We'll see.


----------



## rabler

extropic said:


> Do your Tax appraisers make unannounced visits?
> 
> You could run a garden hose, with a quick connect, through a hole in the wall.
> 
> We'll see.


Actually yes they do.  About every 3 years.  Of course they don't go inside of anything.  

 If I was to go through the work of putting in a french drain, I'd put in a tank and an appropriate leaching field.  It's really not that hard to do when you have an excavator, already did one over at the barns, permits and all.  Just have to map out enough room to frame up a small bathroom on that side of the building.  I don't see it happening soon, but yes, I have thought through what it would take.  Cheaper than the overhead bridge crane


----------



## woodchucker

rabler said:


> Actually yes they do.  About every 3 years.  Of course they don't go inside of anything.
> 
> If I was to go through the work of putting in a french drain, I'd put in a tank and an appropriate leaching field.  It's really not that hard to do when you have an excavator, already did one over at the barns, permits and all.  Just have to map out enough room to frame up a small bathroom on that side of the building.  I don't see it happening soon, but yes, I have thought through what it would take.  Cheaper than the overhead bridge crane


BTW you could always get one of the wash stations like the porta john people supply. So not totally necessary, but removing the waste is the same old, same old.


----------



## extropic

When I referred to "French drain" I meant one of your existing runs of perforated pipe (20 feet away?).

Do you take the bet?

What stakes?

I say less than a year for sink under roof.

LOL


----------



## rabler

extropic said:


> When I referred to "French drain" I meant one of your existing runs of perforated pipe (20 feet away?).
> 
> Do you take the bet?
> 
> What stakes?
> 
> I say less than a year for sink under roof.
> 
> LOL


1 year from today.  Yes, I'll take that bet.  I have the bridge cranes, a CNC VMC, and a plasma table on my wish list first.

Mid July, 2023, I hit 59 1/2.   Then I can officially access the bulk of my retirement without IRS penalty.  Until then I'm living on what I allotted to keep under my 457(b) (or something like that.)   Unless prostate cancer recurs I don't get any special medical exemptions, and I'm not hoping for that option, as it would mean it was metastatic.

The existing french drains are about 3' from the building perimeter.


----------



## woodchucker

rabler said:


> 1 year from today.  Yes, I'll take that bet.  I have the bridge cranes, a CNC VMC, and a plasma table on my wish list first.
> 
> Mid July, 2023, I hit 59 1/2.   Then I can officially access the bulk of my retirement without IRS penalty.  Until then I'm living on what I allotted to keep under my 457(b) (or something like that.)   Unless prostate cancer recurs I don't get any special medical exemptions, and I'm not hoping for that option, as it would mean it was metastatic.
> 
> The existing french drains are about 3' from the building perimeter.


Yea, I don't think you are the type that will change on that. I figure you thought it out, weighed the facts/costs/issues/taxes and made your decision. I don't think you took it lightly.


----------



## Janderso

rabler said:


> This project has languished on the sidelines as I work on building the new shop.   The recent combination of missing the machining work, and slowing down on finishing the shop due to a break in the budget, meant I spent a bit of time on it in the last couple of days.  Got the platten and table finished, other than needing a small lip on the bottom of the platten for the glass facing.  Still need to make the tensioner/tracking arm.
> 
> View attachment 411381
> View attachment 411382
> View attachment 411383
> View attachment 411384
> 
> 
> The last picture shows the table rotated 90 degrees to facilitate edge sanding.  If you look back through the CAD design, the whole base/motor rotates so that the edge sanding can be done in a horizontal orientation, I currently just have things clamped together so rotating the whole base is not currently trivial.  I need to make the clamping bolts and misc little pieces as well.  This things is going to be incredibly heavy, that's what I get for overbuilding everything.
> 
> Anyhow, back to building the new shop.  Got to crawl under the house (crawl space, barely) and hook up the water line.


Is that a Binford?


----------



## extropic

Janderso said:


> Is that a Binford?


LOL, That is FUNNY.

It definitely needs a BINFORD 6100 sticker.


----------



## Dhal22

rabler said:


> That requires a place for the water to go.  A connection to a septic tank would be the typical answer.  The shop is slightly downhill of the septic tank.  Adding "indoor plumbing" changes the tax base too.  Having a water hydrant right outside the door means I can still wash my hands easily enough.















						Drain Pump Series - Zoeller Pump Company | Wastewater Pumps & Systems
					

Removes water from areas where gravity flow is not available such as laundry trays, wet bar sinks, lavatories, air conditioning condensate and dehumidifiers. Can also be used in conjunction with dishwashers and garbage disposal.



					www.zoellerpumps.com


----------



## rabler

@Dhal22 
If you think about needing to keep a sewer line below the frost line, you’d have to bury the pump in the ground to work.


----------



## rabler

woodchucker said:


> Yea, I don't think you are the type that will change on that. I figure you thought it out, weighed the facts/costs/issues/taxes and made your decision. I don't think you took it lightly.


A big part of that thought process is that which side of the door I have to step to to wash my hands, or fill a water bottle, etc, doesn't matter *to me*.  Nor am I bashful about stepping outside to water a tree. What would matter is having a toilet. Because Crohn's disease. Which means a septic tank.  Fortunately the current medication (stellera) is working well, although that will likely change over time as biologics tend to wain in efficacy.  At which point a plumbing project will arise.

But we spent much of last summer replacing the polybutylene in the house.  I'm not a fan of working on plumbing.  I'd like to get back to machining, woodworking, and electronics.  I have a long list of remodeling things to be done on the house too.  So I'm inclined to minimize such things as far as the shop, and get to using the shop for projects, rather than being the project.  That's a big part of the reason I took a break from that to work on this belt grinder.


----------



## Janderso

rabler said:


> 1 year from today.  Yes, I'll take that bet.  I have the bridge cranes, a CNC VMC, and a plasma table on my wish list first.
> 
> Mid July, 2023, I hit 59 1/2.   Then I can officially access the bulk of my retirement without IRS penalty.  Until then I'm living on what I allotted to keep under my 457(b) (or something like that.)   Unless prostate cancer recurs I don't get any special medical exemptions, and I'm not hoping for that option, as it would mean it was metastatic.
> 
> The existing french drains are about 3' from the building perimeter.


May you live a long and healthy retirement.
I’m having a ball. On a three week trip up the Pacific Northwest.


----------



## BGHansen

rabler said:


> 1 year from today.  Yes, I'll take that bet.  I have the bridge cranes, a CNC VMC, and a plasma table on my wish list first.
> 
> Mid July, 2023, I hit 59 1/2.   Then I can officially access the bulk of my retirement without IRS penalty.  Until then I'm living on what I allotted to keep under my 457(b) (or something like that.)   Unless prostate cancer recurs I don't get any special medical exemptions, and I'm not hoping for that option, as it would mean it was metastatic.


Not trying to "kick you out the door" into retirement early, but I was advised that if you are truly retired, you can touch your 401K starting at age 55 without the 10% penalty.  Something about taking out substantially equal amounts based on life expectancy.  If your job stinks, you may check into it.  I waited until I was 62+ to retire; didn't hate what I did, worked with good people.  It was getting harder and harder to get up at 5:30 AM though, glad I retired!

Bruce


----------



## rabler

BGHansen said:


> Not trying to "kick you out the door" into retirement early, but I was advised that if you are truly retired, you can touch your 401K starting at age 55 without the 10% penalty.  Something about taking out substantially equal amounts based on life expectancy.  If your job stinks, you may check into it.  I waited until I was 62+ to retire; didn't hate what I did, worked with good people.  It was getting harder and harder to get up at 5:30 AM though, glad I retired!
> 
> Bruce


Bruce,
The quick version is that I retired in 2019, moved from Georgia to Indiana, and a whole host of other 'stuff'.

The long detailed story: Yes, you can take "substantially equal payments" over 5 years from a 401k if you start before 59 1/2.  But I was in a university job that made me eligible for a 457(b), and some other IRS stuff.  I was diagnosed with prostate cancer in 2017, and spent 2018 getting treated.  I officially retired mid 2019 after burning about 2000 hours of sick leave during treatment, etc.  I had over 30 years so was eligible by university rule.  My money was not in a 401k but rather a 403(b) and 457(b) IIRC.   Those were managed plans with limited investing options, BUT the IRS allows you to retire from those at 55 1/2.  At retirement  I could role money out of those 403/457 for 6 months (?), or it would be locked into those plans, run by AIG Valic, which in my opinion does not have a great reputation, and TIAA/CREF.  I preferred to move my money into a rollover IRA through Schwab allowing me to invest much more broadly, have a lot more control over my money, etc, but could not be accessed until 59 1/2 except under the 5 year substantially equal payment clause.   Rather than using that clause, I left enough money in the 457/403 to provide an income until 59 1/2.  To build the new shop I actually cashed some, but not all of the 457/403 money out, although much of the shop was paid by the last of some money I had from previous property.  So currently I'm living on slightly less monthly allotment than I planned, which means I can't quite finish out some of the details of the shop as fast as I'd like.  But I'm retired, not hurting financially, I'm having fun, and my wife and I are happy.   Sorry if that is more than you wanted to know!!! 


I do appreciate the thought/suggestion.  I enjoyed my job, but after some tough career decisions (that would be a long but dull novel), I was also tired of living in Atlanta, a 4 hours drive from my wife and farm/horses.  Retirement is good.  I had planned to work until 59 1/2, and would have had the money to build a nicer retirement home than the manufactured home we ended up in, but with the unknowns caused by aggressive/advanced cancer, it was time.


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## Dhal22

rabler said:


> @Dhal22
> If you think about needing to keep a sewer line below the frost line, you’d have to bury the pump in the ground to work.



I've been plumbing since '85 but in the south so didn't think about you dealing with freezing conditions.  You could put the pump basin inside the building but the forced main would have to be below frost line.


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## BGHansen

rabler said:


> Bruce,
> The quick version is that I retired in 2019, moved from Georgia to Indiana, and a whole host of other 'stuff'.


Sounds like a VERY sound plan!  Looking forward to seeing pictures of your completed shop!  You've got me thinking about adding a mini-split in mine.

Bruce


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## rabler

BGHansen said:


> You've got me thinking about adding a mini-split in mine.


Between the house, the new shop, and the shop at the barns, I have six compressors (outdoor units) driving 9 indoor sections.  Obviously I'm sold on them.


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## Just for fun

I may have missed it, but do you have a brand recommendation?  I don't really a heater, but I am in the market for an AC unit.  For the shop I'm thinking just a window type 24,000 BTU unit.  But for the house I kind of like the Mini-split option.


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## rabler

Just for fun said:


> I may have missed it, but do you have a brand recommendation?  I don't really a heater, but I am in the market for an AC unit.  For the shop I'm thinking just a window type 24,000 BTU unit.  But for the house I kind of like the Mini-split option.


 I'm using  the Pioneer brand models, which I've ordered through highseer.com/pdhvac.com.  I have been happy with them but have not used any other brands/models so can't comment on the different brands.  I do really prefer the mini-split over a window unit.  Quiter, doesn't block the window, and more energy efficient.

I have 5 indoor units in our house, one for each bedroom, one for the kitchen and one for the living room.  Being able to set the temperature individually, or only cool/heat one room at a time, is a great energy ($) saver.  We do have a central gas heat which handles the majority of winter weather heating.  The heat pump heating loses efficiency as you get near freezing temperatures and below.


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## rabler

Well after a bit of hiatus due to moving things into the new shop, I'm back to work on this.  I'm not really done with moving/organizing, but I would rather organize and arrange stuff while working on a project, I can only spend so much time on chores before I get eager to go back to building something.  I need to afix the glass platten, make the top roller, and re-make the hub for the large drive wheel as my earlier attempt has a bit too much play on the motor shaft.
Then I'll need to paint it, wire up the VFD to the motor and build a stand for it.  May also want to put a guard over the top front roller to avoid getting sand blasted in the face, but a test run will decide that.


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## brino

@rabler, that a nice bright workspace. I'd be eager to get back in there too!
Brian


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## rabler

*Test run*
Made a base, two 60lb bags of concrete and a 3" round tube.  Got the VFD mounted in a cabinet on the back.  First time actually running it with a belt on.  Works pretty well.  Total thing weighs 290 lbs  .I originally had some cheap bearings in the roller wheels.  Two of the three wheels ran hot, the bearings were dragging.  Replaced those with some better bearings (I had already suspected they would be problematic).  I also need to add a spring to the tracking adjustment to prevent creep.  I threaded that for 3/8" 16   (UNC) in retrospect UNF would have been a better choice.





Need to mount the glass on the platten, put a filter on the top of the VFD cabinet, make a place to mount the FWD/OFF/REV switch and speed adjustment potentiometer, and then disassemble and paint the whole thing.  I'm going to remove the side square mount that I was pondering for adding a disc.

I'll try to update the FreeCad plans and post those in few days to reflect the updates and enhancements.


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## rabler

One more picture, horizontal configuration.


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## extropic

Very nice Randal.

I got a chuckle out of the cat, when he/she wakes, if he/she steps to the wrong side of that box . . . Yeow!




Looking over the machine, I offer a couple of suggestions. Regarding the square tube (to be removed), rather than removing it, consider using it to mount a rack to store spare belts and/or other accessories. Regarding the filter for the VFD cabinet, add a PVC fitting to add a 90° ell so gravity works for you. Lots of options as to size and configuration.
YMMV









						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com


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## rabler

extropic said:


> Very nice Randal.
> 
> I got a chuckle out of the cat, when he/she wakes, if he/she steps to the wrong side of that box . . . Yeow!
> 
> Looking over the machine, I offer a couple of suggestions. Regarding the square tube (to be removed), rather than removing it, consider using it to mount a rack to store spare belts and/or other accessories. Regarding the filter for the VFD cabinet, add a PVC fitting to add a 90° ell so gravity works for you. Lots of options as to size and configuration.
> YMMV


That whole litter of kittens has been amusing.  They are about 5 months old now.

The square tube section is less than ideal as belt storage.  For one thing it would make the running belt harder to remove.  Another issue is when the grinder rotates to horizontal, that tube would be vertical and the belts won’t hang right.


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## extropic

rabler said:


> The square tube section is less than ideal as belt storage.  For one thing it would make the running belt harder to remove.  Another issue is when the grinder rotates to horizontal, that tube would be vertical and the belts won’t hang right.



D'oh!


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## rabler

Some specs, for anyone curious about trivia:
I'm running a 6" drive wheel, with an inverter 2HP motor,  rated 1750 RPM motor.    I'm using a 3HP Teco L510 series VFD.  Plan was to allow
45 Hz to 100 Hz, giving a range of 2060 to 4580 SFPM.  What I've seen suggests 3000 to 5000 SFPM  is ideal so I'm a little slow.  It's a cheap (Boston Gear/WEG) inverter motor so I'm not keen on pushing it too far.

There is some merit in running it much slower to get the initial tracking aligned if it's completely out of wack.  I reprogrammed my VFD to go down to 5Hz when I was initially playing with that.  But then the useful grinding speed range is represented by about 1/3 of a turn of my current cheap potentiometer.  If I leave it with that range I make look into a multi-turn pot, although reducing the acceleration time to something very small would also help, and should be feasible with the minimal mass to spin up.

Anyway, would be easy enough to change out the drive wheel if I need something significantly different.  IIRC I had calculated a 6.5" wheel would be close to ideal, but 6061 tube stock was either 6" or 7" in short sections from McMaster.  I'll see after using it if a 7" wheel is more attractive.


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## rabler

Some delay as I had to drive a horse out to Massatuchets last week, about 40 hours on the road over 4 days pulling a good sized gooseneck trailer.

Got the belt grinder painted before I left so the paint had a few days to set up.  Made a small panel for a switch and potentiometer going to the VFD in the back cabinet.  Put back together and test run.  Two of the idlers running a little hot.  I believe the central shaft that mounts the bearing for the idler below the platen is a hair too large causing the bearing to be tight.  A little time with emory cloth will fix that.  The tracking adjust idler on the tension arm is also running warm, I think that one is too much axial pressure on the bearings and needs a shim.

Still need to epoxy the glass to the platen, and filter over the VFD.  Also just ordered a compression spring from McMaster to keep the tracking adjustment from drifting.  I did drop the VFD deceleration time to 1.5 seconds, which gave me an over voltage error on deceleration, so I upped the deceleration time to 2.5 seconds.  Tomorrow I'll set the parameters to allow it to temporarily maintain speed on acceleration/deceleration on error, so that it doesn't tend to error out and instead is more self-regulating.


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## rabler

brino said:


> @rabler, that a nice bright workspace. I'd be eager to get back in there too!
> Brian


The semi-gloss white walls and high gloss metal ceiling really help with making it brighter.  That was definitely the right thing to do.  Just need to put a few things on the wall to personalize it.


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## rabler

Got this belt grinder/sander all done.  Quite happy with it.  I did have to make a jam nut for the tracking adjustment, the classical spring solution didn't stop it from drifting.  Could be some vibration in that pulley/idler, some work on balancing it might help, but it is not obvious.

I'm attaching the plans both in PDF and in FreeCad in case anyone wants to use them as a starting point.  Overall I'm quite happy with this.  Only design change I would make is to extend the base plate that is under the motor forward about 2" as it would balance better.  A non-issue with the way I have it mounted but not ideal.  I did have to make a bit of a cutout in that baseplate to handle pivoting to horizontal, and the motor also hangs below that plate in the horizontal position so that plate isn't suited for a direct benchtop mount.  While I discussed adding a side mounted disc sander, decided that was too much of a compromise to do elegantly. If anyone has questions about more detailed design points I'm happy to discuss.


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## rabler

A few more of the PDF files, as the limit is 20 attachments per post ...


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## wachuko

Just came across this thread… interesting…

I ordered the plans from Jer yesterday… sigh…

Inch plans - https://www.etsy.com/listing/969297008/inch-plans-gen-2-tilting-belt-grinder


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## Just for fun

Thanks Randle!


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## rabler

wachuko said:


> I ordered the plans from Jer yesterday… sigh…


I'm sure Jeremy's plans are more detailed, and overall the build is simpler and better thought out having reached gen 2.  Mine are CAD versions of my working notes and have a few missing things/details.

edited to add: after reviewing some of that video, I would say I like the semi-tapered arm mount I use over the weld-fit.  Just a little bit of pressure and it locks in very solidly.  Jeremy's looks like the table design is somewhat better, it adds height adjustment in the horizontal orientation.  And overall his design is much simpler to build, mine is a machining project, where his is a fab project.  I could easily build a second table arm more akin to his design as an upgrade.  One of the fun things with these is interchangeability of both the table arms and the platen mount, so options and upgrades are straightforward.

I did build my rollers and platen to be 2.5" wide even though I'm running a 2" belt.  I may end up building a new 2" platen, otherwise keeping everything else identical,  if I find that to be less than ideal for getting into edges, etc.


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## wachuko

rabler said:


> I'm sure Jeremy's plans are more detailed, and overall the build is simpler and better thought out having reached gen 2.  Mine are CAD versions of my working notes and have a few missing things/details.
> 
> edited to add: after reviewing some of that video, I would say I like the semi-tapered arm mount I use over the weld-fit.  Just a little bit of pressure and it locks in very solidly.  Jeremy's looks like the table design is somewhat better, it adds height adjustment in the horizontal orientation.  And overall his design is much simpler to build, mine is a machining project, where his is a fab project.  I could easily build a second table arm more akin to his design as an upgrade.  One of the fun things with these is interchangeability of both the table arms and the platen mount, so options and upgrades are straightforward.
> 
> I did build my rollers and platen to be 2.5" wide even though I'm running a 2" belt.  I may end up building a new 2" platen, otherwise keeping everything else identical,  if I find that to be less than ideal for getting into edges, etc.


I got it (the plans) to add it to the list of projects that I would like to tackle...  But I am a bit of a chicken sh*t... rather than making everything, I was going to see if I could send the files to get all precut and make it just a welding project...  I see his video and I see what you did here... now way I am going to be able to tackle all that cutting, sizing, and shaping and expect to get a workable grinder, hahahahahha


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