# This Is Just Wrong



## JimDawson (Sep 5, 2016)

This ad just popped up on the Portland Craigslist, a local temp agency.  If they can fill the position at this rate, there is something seriously wrong.  Going rate around here is about $19.00/hr for entry level.

_Experienced CNC Machinist / Mill and Lathe -- Open positions -- swing shift ($13.00 +) DOE

Contract to hire after 90days
Must be able to pass drug test and background

Send resume_


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 5, 2016)

I was getting half again that when I retired 16 years ago, in the tool room. Inflation since 2000 has been 37%, too.


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## TOOLMASTER (Sep 5, 2016)

welders are getting big bucks now...i made 7.50 30 years ago.;-(


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## Billh50 (Sep 5, 2016)

Jim,

I was making $25 an hour when I became disabled 7yrs ago. Since the hard times many places were trying to hire machinists and toolmakers for anywhere from $13 - $15 an hour. I have recently just seen it coming back up to around $19 - $22.


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## JimDawson (Sep 5, 2016)

Billh50 said:


> .........trying to hire machinists and toolmakers for anywhere from $13 - $15 an hour.



Wow, that's pretty light.  In this area Boeing and other aerospace shops pretty much set the base wages by sucking up every qualified machinist so the local market might be skewed a bit.


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## Cadillac STS (Sep 5, 2016)

The ad is from a temp agency. The agency may be getting $25 but paying the temp $13. If it for an unskilled entry position to load and unload a CNC machine it might be about right.


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## Tony Wells (Sep 5, 2016)

That's Put'erTak'er wages. In this area, when things are going well, anyone who can read a print and do their own setups can get around $18 last I heard. It goes up from there, DOE. But, here everyone is expected to have their own tools, and I don't mean an indicator and a pair of calipers. I really don't know what the market is like right now, but I think it is only fair. Lots of older guys, so it may pick up soon. Bennies are generally decent here too.


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## jim18655 (Sep 5, 2016)

Wonder how this will all play out when the fast food places are forced to pay$15/hr? If I'm worth 4 times a McDonald's worker now will I get a raise to $60/hr? I doubt it.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 5, 2016)

A few years back, I ran across this site which provides average wages/salaries for just about any job or profession.

They state a 10th percentile wage of $9.91, a median wage of $15.23, and a 90th percentile wage of $23.45 for a CNC operator.
http://www.careerprofiles.info/computer-controlled-operator-salaries.html

I wasn't able to find the year for the data.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 5, 2016)

jim18655 said:


> Wonder how this will all play out when the fast food places are forced to pay$15/hr? If I'm worth 4 times a McDonald's worker now will I get a raise to $60/hr? I doubt it.


That's the whole fallacy about the $15 minimum wage.  It will just trigger a round of salary  and price increases across the board and in the long run the people getting the increase in minimum will be back where they started. 

The first law of business should be an employee can't receive more compensation than the value they add. doing otherwise will ultimately cause the business to fail.

Unfortunately, those of us who are on fixed incomes will find that our investment have suddenly decreased in real value.


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## Billh50 (Sep 6, 2016)

I remember once going to a large company here many years ago for a job. The place had set pay scales for different jobs even though they were not union. Well to make a long story short. There was only a 20 cent difference between a janitor and a toolmaker. I told them to give me the broom if they had an opening there. Needless to say I didn't get the job because of my attitude. Some places just don't know what it takes to actually do the job they are hiring someone for.


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## alloy (Sep 6, 2016)

Maybe my ex helper should apply.   But that's actually more than he's worth


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## Cadillac STS (Sep 7, 2016)

I work with people all day for work and get to know things about them.  One important thing I always am interested in is what kind of work they do.  One time a young woman told me she was a "Machinist."  So I am thinking of asking if she is in a union and working toward a Journeyman and which type of machine.  And I'm interested in this area so was a hopeful for a good conversation.  Started asking what she did and she told me she puts a part in and pushes two buttons on a machine in a factory so she is a machinist.  That is a "Machine Operator" right?  

What is the essential factor to call someone a machinist compared to an operator?


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## JimDawson (Sep 7, 2016)

Cadillac STS said:


> What is the essential factor to call someone a machinist compared to an operator?



That is a really good question.

The term ''Machinist'' used to be well defined, but not so much any longer.  A hundred years ago, a machinist operated a machine tool, made chips, and hopefully turned out useable parts.  As a journeyman they could also setup the jobs on the machines.

Today, the job title ''machinist'' seems to be almost anyone that can load a part and push a button.  I suppose that it depends on the shop and how they define the position.

I think the lines have been blurred by the machinists union's.  They are handing out journeyman cards to anybody who works in a union shop and has enough time in to be a journeyman.  I worked in a union shop many years ago and was handed a journeyman card just for walking in the door.  My job was millwright, not machinist, but my card says journeyman machinist.  Yes, I was a journeyman machinist as well as a journeyman millwright at the time, but I had no credentials showing either.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 7, 2016)

JimDawson said:


> That is a really good question.
> 
> The term ''Machinist'' used to be well defined, but not so much any longer.  A hundred years ago, a machinist operated a machine tool, made chips, and hopefully turned out useable parts.  As a journeyman they could also setup the jobs on the machines.
> 
> ...



And therein lies the problem!  Companies are free to use whatever title they choose for their internal purposes. many times a title is bestowed in lieu of more satisfying compensation.  At other times, it's just done to fit someone in a category.  As Jim points out, there is a world of difference between someone putting a part in a machine and pushing two buttons and someone who can read  print, set up a  machine, machine a part, and confirm the suitability of the work.

Hiring in most companies is largely carried out by the HR department.  To say that they are intimately familiar with the duties and responsibilities of each and every work position in the company would be a huge understatement.  HR people go to their lists of compensation by job title and come back with a suggested compensation range.  That usually is the starting point for wage negotiations.

Some time ago, we hired an engineer fresh out of school but one with whom we already had a good work relationship.  We offered a salary based upon a suggested salary range and he accepted.  A few months later I said "This is stupid.  We are going to lose a valuable resource because we are underpaying him."  I got agreement and we up his salary by $10K.  As it turns out, our startup company was sold to a Fortune 500 company and he is the only original employee still working for them.

Eventually, the market will sort itself out.  Those that can will move on to better situations.  As good workers diminish in number, employers will be forced to offer better compensation.

Now if that only would work in reverse for CEO's!


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