# Would you buy....



## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 2, 2018)

So, I really want to buy new but, if I could pick this up for say $700 (I have no idea how much play there is in price) that would give 2k in tooling and such...
it's a Central Machinery, runs on 120v and has (I'm told) a 12" by 30" x/y...
I'm looking at it tomorrow, any pointers/thoughs?I
Thanks much!

https://denver.craigslist.org/tls/d/mill-drill/6657989596.html


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## hman (Aug 2, 2018)

I have a similar machine (Grizzly).  

Doesn't look bad in the photos.  But the table surface is not shown, so you might want to give it the eagle eye. Also check the full X and Y axis travel (manual cranks), with the table locks barely tightened.  Looseness in the middle of travel, with tightness at the ends would indicate worn ways.  The X axis power feed is a newer version of the one I have.  Check operation in both directions and over the speed range, also the operation of the automatic stops.  The vise is probably OK, but may turn out to be a bit large for the table.  I once bought a 6" vise, sold it and bought a 5" one.  

Check that the switch operates properly, both forward and reverse.  Being wired for 110 volts means LOTS of current being switched, and it's sometimes hard on the contacts.  Minor point - there's no cover for the belt box.  Check that the spindle speed chart is stuck on the lower cover, or else that it's in the manual.  Loosen the belt drive and try rotating the spindle by hand.  Look for undue looseness, tightness, or noises.  Tighten the Z axis lock and try shaking the chuck.  Any rattles or looseness would be bad news.

Hope it works out for you!


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 2, 2018)

Hman, you have already hit on something...he says there is some play in the table. I have not looked at it yet, I thought MAYBE it could be backlash adjustment. Being that you called it, perhaps it's worn out, if so, could I get a replacement table from Grizzly? Is it no longer worth it? I can hold out, but something great already passed me by, but I'm hoping to save money on something used but good so I can spend more on tooling. The lathe is already killing me for the same reason!
Thanks for the valuable input!


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## hman (Aug 2, 2018)

Looseness of the table might just mean that the gib(s) need to be adjusted.  It's not necessarily a problem.  Lightly tightening the table locks simulates gib adjustment when you go for the inspection.  It's more important that the "tightness" of the table be constant from end to end.

As for backlash, there are a couple things you can do to fix it.  The "best" answer (IMHO) is to install a DRO and have the gibs adjusted properly.  I've always hated squinting at dials and trying to correct for even small amounts of backlash.

Don't count on a Grizzly table fitting a Central Machinery mill.  And everything I've heard about Harbor Freight's parts/help/support has been pretty poor.  Check the mill out thoroughly.  If it's a lemon, just walk away.


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## T Bredehoft (Aug 2, 2018)

Those endmills in the last picture are larger than that machine will comfortably handle. If sharp, they'll cut, but  won't  be able to use their potential.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 4, 2018)

Ok...that wasn't a good purchase. There is another one, a Jet JDM-15, LOOKS like he is also flexible on price, though I'm not thrilled with a round column unit. Compared to what I'm looking at, the price is pretty similar...if he takes $1500 or so...is it worth it? I have really only researched Grizzly or Precision Matthews. Also, it says it's less than 6 months old...it does LOOK new.
JET JDM-15


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## mikey (Aug 5, 2018)

You can buy a brand new PM 25MV with stand and warranty for about the same price. No question in my mind that I would go with that before the Jet-15. They are very near the same size but the PM 25 is a superior machine in my opinion.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 5, 2018)

Very good points Mikey....I agree.


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## C-Bag (Aug 7, 2018)

Hman and Mikey both nailed it, but there are so many details like what it's going to be used for. And do you want to pay less and fix more? I suffer TAS(tool acqusisiton syndrom) but have limited funds and limited space so it keeps TAS at bay somewhat. I also didn't start off doing super critical work so bought cheap and fixed or adjusted as needed. TAS also envolves price creep as the Jet and PM show.

I ended up with a well worn Enco RF-30 for $400. If it doesn't come with it the first thing I bought after a decent set of end mills was X power unit and the cheapest was almost $300. You already get you'll need more in tooling than the cost of the mill. One of the few bonuses was I had really bad drag on both ends of travel on the X & Y and once I pulled the lead screws and cleaned them almost all that drag went away. So there are so many details it takes a while to figure them all out.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 7, 2018)

C-bag I could easily just buy a new unit, and I still might. I’m just hoping to come across a good used mill & have more $$ for tooling, vices etc...the best machine isn’t worth anything if you don’t have supporting tools. I am very limited on space and is my BIGGEST concern.


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## C-Bag (Aug 7, 2018)

Yup, me too. And the thing I often forget about is Z space. I constantly cruise CL and like right now there is a really nice Millrite in there for $1500 with some tooling and VFD. Great deal, but not only is the weight a major concern as far as moving. But also its too tall to fit in my garage so once again logistics curtail TAS.


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## hman (Aug 7, 2018)

TAS!  Yup ... got it bad.  But I've had to forcefully suppress it for several months, as I unpack/arrange/organize two shops' worth of tools and supplies to my new 50x30 shop.  But I can still drool!


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## C-Bag (Aug 7, 2018)

50x30!!!!!! Oh I'd be in deep yogurt. My 19x20 two car shop would need a shoe horn to get anything else in it. Everything has to be on castors so I can reconfigure to get anything done. It is getting old but at this stage of the game it's just too much $$$ for more space.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 7, 2018)

I want to have a new garage door installed, but I fear they will ask me to move some of my tools/machines so they can get better access....Dear Lord! Could you imagine?!?!


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## C-Bag (Aug 7, 2018)

Ain't no thang when everything is on castors like mine. I had to move a bunch of stuff when we had a new electrical panel put in right next to the corner of the garage next to the door. It does end up being more like Tetris though, moving and wedging. My biggest problem is I have a steep driveway into the garage so heavy stuff is dangerous if I have to go out there. That also limits things.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 8, 2018)

What about this monster?? I think a knee mill is too much but seems like a great deal..
Knee mill


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## Chipper5783 (Aug 8, 2018)

That CMV1 is actually quite a small mill.  Strictly speaking it is similar in size to the bench mills + stand discussed above, except you don't need a stand for it.  Sure it is going to be heavier - but it's not like you are going to be carrying it around (whether 300# or 3000# - you still have to figure out a means of lifting it).  The power is likely a little fussy, but not anything that many folks here have had to sort out.

Go check it out, it has a lot more capability than the other ones that you have looked at (if it works).


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## poplarhouse (Aug 8, 2018)

Another thought: if you buy used from an individual, you have no warranty. If it's really cheap, that might not be an issue. I considered it, pouring over CL day after day, but finally decided I didn't have the expertise to completely evauluate the condition of a machine in someone's garage with them looking on. Incidentally, Just had an email from PM telling me my 932M is on the truck and heading this way.


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## C-Bag (Aug 9, 2018)

Everybody's experience is different, but my experience with warranty has been spotty at best. It has never worked out that it was still in force to save me anything. IMHO the first thing to go has been customer service being outsourced to poor helpless people overseas. And that's if you can navigate the first hurdle, the phone tree. My first concern is if someone still makes the parts. It's been a godsend that Grizzley seems to have parts for my various HF machine tools


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 9, 2018)

That is the big appeal to Grizzly, many mods, many parts available. I did deal with warranty parts with Grizzly this week, they are awesome to deal with!


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## C-Bag (Aug 9, 2018)

If they have the parts they are quick. They seem very organized so I can research the part online and order. Stuff has gotten here quick. I did get a poorly machined hub for my new/used tool grinder. But I treated like all the other PAC/RIM stuff, a kit and a project.


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## poplarhouse (Aug 10, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> Everybody's experience is different, but my experience with warranty has been spotty at best.


With some luck, I won't have an experience to make a comparison! The mill I just bought is from Quality Machine and the warranty is 3 years. The people I talk to are in Pittsburgh, and I don't think they outsource anything except the manufacture of their products. I bought a rotary table from Grizzly, but had no problems to call about. I have heard some terrible stories about their CS, although my ordering experience (I picked it up on the way to Branson) was good. The new mill is on the dock waiting for me to pick it up Monday, so here's hoping all is ok.


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## C-Bag (Aug 10, 2018)

My observation by reviews is warranty is most needed from shipping damage. So good on you that you can pick it up. 

 Then next is bad QC. So it would seem if something is going to go wrong it's within a short time of being received. That's why it's always good to use it right away.

It's ALWAYS good to hear about good customer service and positive results. My first experience with Grizzley was trying to get a replacement arbor for a used table saw I'd gotten off CL. It had been discontinued so no joy. But literally everything off that saw has been repurposed so live and learn.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 10, 2018)

poplarhouse said:


> With some luck, I won't have an experience to make a comparison! The mill I just bought is from Quality Machine and the warranty is 3 years. The people I talk to are in Pittsburgh, and I don't think they outsource anything except the manufacture of their products. I bought a rotary table from Grizzly, but had no problems to call about. I have heard some terrible stories about their CS, although my ordering experience (I picked it up on the way to Branson) was good. The new mill is on the dock waiting for me to pick it up Monday, so here's hoping all is ok.


I am very curious your thoughts on Quality Machine....just the name screams quality!  but I am looking for a mill and new ideas are always appreciate.


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## poplarhouse (Aug 10, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> I am very curious your thoughts on Quality Machine....just the name screams quality!  but I am looking for a mill and new ideas are always appreciate.


I only know what I read in the papers. I went nuts comparing the zillions of models Grizzly sells, but nothing really had all the features I wanted. QM has fewer models and I was able to narrow it down to the 932 or 940, at abouty the same price for a Grizzly with accessories. I opted for the smaller of the two, saved a thousand bucks and hope unloading it from my pickup by myself will be more manageable. This video helped me decide, but in the end, the combination of features I wanted (about 8X32, x motor drive, the 5" spindle travel, square column, DRO, steel gears, etc.) decided me. I'll let you know more after I get it plugged in.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 10, 2018)

Ahh...yes. PRECISION MATTHEWS. That I'm familiar with. I was considering the PM25 or PM 727. I had a situation with them on Amazon that made me question their ethics. I was literally ordering that night until they did what they did.


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## poplarhouse (Aug 11, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Ahh...yes. PRECISION MATTHEWS. That I'm familiar with. I was considering the PM25 or PM 727. I had a situation with them on Amazon that made me question their ethics. I was literally ordering that night until they did what they did.


I remember you mentioning it. I noticed that Grizzly is set up as a seller on Amazon and Walmart, too, but you don't get free shipping. In fact, some of the accessories are more expensive because minimum shipping is $9.99. Stuff like that, it's probably better to order directly from the company. I've seen it with listings from Banggood and Grandin Road, too. They have to pay a percentage of sales to the big guys, so they have to recover it from the customer.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 11, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> What about this monster?? I think a knee mill is too much but seems like a great deal..
> Knee mill


talked to that guy....the machine is HUGE! 2500 LBS! TABLE IS 43" BY 13" , sounds like the motor controller would need replacing as it is DOS only. I would assume the stepper motors would need replacing...I think they are servos right now. Needs the VFD for speed control/3 phase conversion. Probably too much for the limited time I have...He says they were made here in Colorado....pretty cool.


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## Superburban (Aug 12, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> talked to that guy....the machine is HUGE! 2500 LBS! TABLE IS 43" BY 13" , sounds like the motor controller would need replacing as it is DOS only. I would assume the stepper motors would need replacing...I think they are servos right now. Needs the VFD for speed control/3 phase conversion. Probably too much for the limited time I have...He says they were made here in Colorado....pretty cool.



You do not want that. Without any dials/ knobs, it cannot be used manually. Even if it had working computer controller, it would be of limited use to a home hobbyist. I made the mistake of buying a tracer mill, thinking I could use it manually, not!!


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## C-Bag (Aug 12, 2018)

Superburban said:


> You do not want that. Without any dials/ knobs, it cannot be used manually. Even if it had working computer controller, it would be of limited use to a home hobbyist. I made the mistake of buying a tracer mill, thinking I could use it manually, not!!



I was going to throw a similar reply but being a noob don't feel like I have the creds. Personally I am phobic of any kind of electrical probs. Mechanical I can handle. But the thought of messing with an obsolete CNC machine that can't be used manually just screams full stop!


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 12, 2018)

You are completely right. This is why the current owner is dumping it. I'd love to have an old/strong, not Chinese mill...but not if it's a paperweight. I'm looking at Grizzly and P.M. while watching Craigslist. It kills me that I missed out pre-tariff @ Grizzly and the great deal with P.M on Amazon. SO MANY nice/older machines available if I lived in the great lakes/east coast area. I have to be quick with Craigslist, 24 hours and he better stuff is GONE!


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## Superburban (Aug 13, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> You are completely right. This is why the current owner is dumping it. I'd love to have an old/strong, not Chinese mill...but not if it's a paperweight. I'm looking at Grizzly and P.M. while watching Craigslist. It kills me that I missed out pre-tariff @ Grizzly and the great deal with P.M on Amazon. SO MANY nice/older machines available if I lived in the great lakes/east coast area. I have to be quick with Craigslist, 24 hours and he better stuff is GONE!


 Heck, at least you do not live in a machine tool desert (Yea, I know you are close). I picked up my Fosdick drill press from near you. My mill, I hauled back from Salt Lake city. This last South Bend, I drove over 2 hrs south of me. Here, if you do not catch a tool within 1/2 hr of its posting, forgot it.

Definitely better pickings on the East coast. About ten years back, I moved here from Pa. I set some of my good friends up with some good tools, rather then moving them out here, thinking I could easily replace them. Still workin on it.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 13, 2018)

It's strange, but I feel like if I could hold out for a Bridgeport or the likes, I'd get a better machine and a decent start on tooling/accessories. I have the cash in my safe for a random purchase like that, but having to go rent a uhaul trailer first, takes the spontaneity out of a first come first serve purchase like that.


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## Superburban (Aug 13, 2018)

Yea, having a trailer helps. 

Sucks to rent a Uhaul, and end up not wanting it. Or worse, renting the Uhaul, and drive for 2 hours, and have the seller call, and say it was just sold. Had both happen to me.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 14, 2018)

This might be it...
What do you think?! Made in Taiwan...
Mill
Specs


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## Superburban (Aug 14, 2018)

Thats basically the rong fu, 30 or what ever the magic number is. I have a similar, but much more used, and worn mill. For a hobbyist, it can do a lot. Price initially seems a bit high, but it does look hardly used. so ??? Changing belts gets old, maybe a treadmill motor conversion in the future.

It looks like they only used it as a fancy drill. You would be better getting a set of R8 colets, or an R8 to ER40 chuck, and set of ER40 colets (thats how I use mine). 

Definitely worth taking a look, if you can be the first responder.


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## Superburban (Aug 14, 2018)

I think the lead  screw, and nuts, are the biggest wear items. Check the backlash, and how smooth the table moves. It would not be a deal breaker, as they are easy to get. Could be a bargaining point.


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## Superburban (Aug 14, 2018)

If you are looking at projects bigger then a six pack, I would hold off for a bigger mill. But small projects, even with the round column, are easy to do. I use my rung foo probably about the same amount as the Van Norman. Its smaller, and easier to set up.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 14, 2018)

Yeah, that chuck looks WIMPY...that would have to go. A good chuck...$300 ish. A round column i don't want, but if I can get a good deal...(I don't think $1400 is a good deal) 2 hp and has a large (way bigger than most I've been looking at) table travel. Doesn't really come with anything of value.


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## Superburban (Aug 14, 2018)

I have the RF 40. I do not consider the round column that big of a deal. The spindle stays 90 degs to the table, The only thing you loose is the exact X-Y position. Mine was well worn. I got it for $600, and have probably about another $500 in seals, a lead screw, nut, handle, and gib locks.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 14, 2018)

Losing x/y position is kinda a big deal. Talking to this guy on the phone, it seems this thing is about 3 years old and didn't see a lot of work. I don't want the drill press and i have some bargaining points...if he sells for an even grand, I'll take it, otherwise I'm passing. Going at 3:30 tomorrow...


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## Superburban (Aug 14, 2018)

If you do not have to move the head up or down during a project, then its is not such a big seal. I doubt I moved mine in over 5 years, But I only use it for small stuff.

A grand sounds fair.


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## killswitch505 (Aug 14, 2018)

Guns, where are you located?


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 14, 2018)

killswitch505 said:


> Guns, where are you located?


Near Red Rocks/Bandimere in lakewood, Colorado...why? You selling a mill?!? I'm in!


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## killswitch505 (Aug 15, 2018)

Lol meet ya halfway I’ve a rong fu 30 clone it’s a round column and I’ll be honest I’d avoid a round column. I was in your same boat for about a year hold off until you find exactly what your looking for just gonna take a while


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## markba633csi (Aug 15, 2018)

That CNC would be fun to mess around with tho


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 15, 2018)

I went to see the machine... I was able to talk him down to $800, which is good, however, when you say no lowballers and drop your price 40%, that's odd. There was a terrible sound coming from it while running, he said that's how it sounds. I tinkered with it and fixed that (pulley on motor was rubbing on motor's collar.) Head seemed incredibly hard to move upward. A lot of things that lead me to believe care upkeep wasn't done regularly or well. It's Colorado School of Mines race team/shop. It just wasn't connecting to me...wasn't feeling it. Holding out sounds smart but I've missed some good deals...


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 15, 2018)

Man...my first choice is on here. PM 727 DRO!
PM727


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## Superburban (Aug 15, 2018)

Thats weird, I have heard lots of good stuff about the school of mines. Think they would be using real Colets, and end mills. Did you buy it?

The other is nicer, with the gears, and DRO. Worth 3 time the price?  yea, maybe.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 15, 2018)

Yeah, something didn't feel right, told him to call me after the weekend if he didn't sell.
The Precision Matthews is much less than new, BUT there is a vice/tools and no shipping costs (and it's "in stock") so maybe a wash. I do feel like it's worth 3 times the price though there are good arguments for the PM25 over the 727...I'd be happy either way.


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## C-Bag (Aug 15, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Man...my first choice is on here. PM 727 DRO!
> PM727


For what it's worth, if I could afford it I'd be all over that. It's a lot of $$, but you might be able to talk him down too. That has everything, DRO, X drive, clamping kit, collets, vise and who knows what else. All that stuff new would be close to $3k with shipping. It's too bad so many have low opinions of old RF30, mine has served its purpose for me and I don't feel like it owes me anything seeing how I only paid $400 for it well used and abused. I do jones for nicer mills but I've not done anything yet the RF can't handle.


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## killswitch505 (Aug 15, 2018)

Denver definitely seems to be a tough market. I’m not knocking the smaller Mills my first mill was an RF clone I had such a hard time with it (I’m sure it was mostly me). my BP clone has been a dream to operate. I look at that PM for 2400 and think damn another grand or two and I’m in a decent knee mill. I’m a single father so my priorities differ from most.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 16, 2018)

Yeah, I went to PM’s website, everything included in this (and there is the whole cost of shipping AND the machine isn’t even available right now) but it safely we’ll over 3k. Talked to the seller last night and kinda worked a way for him to hold it for me. I have to rent a trailer and drive 1.5 hours so it will have to wait until Sunday. If all goes well I’ll pick it up then.
I will say, there would be a great value to learn on something cheaper/older, so it has been leaning in two very different directions, but when I saw my original first choice became available 1 hour I went to look at the RF30, I knew it was a sign from the  spaghetti monster in the sky! I’ll report back Sunday!


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## C-Bag (Aug 16, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Yeah, I went to PM’s website, everything included in this (and there is the whole cost of shipping AND the machine isn’t even available right now) but it safely we’ll over 3k. Talked to the seller last night and kinda worked a way for him to hold it for me. I have to rent a trailer and drive 1.5 hours so it will have to wait until Sunday. If all goes well I’ll pick it up then.
> I will say, there would be a great value to learn on something cheaper/older, so it has been leaning in two very different directions, but when I saw my original first choice became available 1 hour I went to look at the RF30, I knew it was a sign from the  spaghetti monster in the sky! I’ll report back Sunday!



It is weird and kinda cosmic how deals show up. You would have been kicking yourself if you'd bought the 30 clone and then seen this 727. Hindsight is always 20/20 but I take a fatalistic view that if it didn't work out it wasn't meant to be. I looked long and hard trying to match up what I was trying to do with what was on CL. It gets really tiring to weigh all the factors all the while my TAS ( tool acqusisiton syndrome) is wanting me to spend more and all the folks for and against the RF30. 

Around here crazy deals show up pretty regularly, I mean insane. But they are huge. Like right now there's an old Monarch 15x72 lathe, complete and working for $600. BP's and their clones for $1800 all the time. Where I got my Atlas 7b shaper (paid $125 for it)they had an Index mill, complete and working for $350 along with an American horizontal mill for $350. There was a Boyar&Shultz 6x18 for $400. 

But I don't have the room and really not the pressing need so ultimately the old real '78 RF30 I ended up with that nobody ever drilled into the table. But looked like they decided to drop stuff from 3' onto it, weirdly does what I need. It sits a lot, same with my 9x20 but when I need them they enable to me to get 'er done. The one criteria that nobody ever mentioned before was the excellent one Superburban mentioned. If you are working on anything smaller than a six pack. Never thought of it but that's exactly where I'm at. That weird spot that's larger than a mini mill can handle and don't need a BP for.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 16, 2018)

Ok, I guess this is important info that I breezed over. For me making billet parts is my goal. I can’t even think of anything I’d make over that 6 pack size!! I mean, can someone give me an example? So mini mills are limited to the “less than 6 pack” size? Even when the table moves 20” by 8”?


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## C-Bag (Aug 16, 2018)

???, confused.....are you thinking the RF30/727 class of benchtop mill drills are mini? I guess to the knee mill guys they are, but there's a class below that is much lighter/smaller that I think of as mini. But that's just me.........


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 16, 2018)

Sorry, I guess I’m not sure what constitutes as a mini mill (or a lathe for that matter) in the simplest term, if a mill is under 1000 lbs, perhaps it’s mini?? I wouldn’t want to lift that though!!


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## C-Bag (Aug 16, 2018)

This by definition is a mini mill:

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4962

It's 126lbs. As opposed to my RF30 which is 700lbs. And is scary enough to lift and move but that's what my engine cherry picker is for.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 16, 2018)

Wow! Sounds like a drill press. I consider my G0602 lathe a mini....maybe I’m wrong about that as well. Guess I’m buying a big boy mill, no mini’s for this guy!


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## Superburban (Aug 16, 2018)

The six pack reference was just a quick example that I could think of for height, It can do taller, but then you get into having to move the head, which with the round column, as you know, changes things a bit.

I re-bored an air compressor pump with mine.  Had just enough travel to do where the piston rings traveled, then I lowered the boring head spindle, to get around lowering the mill head.

My father in law, rebuilt many lawnmower engines, and the closest thing he had to a power tool, was an plug in electric hand drill, held in one of those mounts that allows it to somewhat work like a drill press. He use a hand powered drill to chase threads, and even tap threads a few times.

The only real limitations are in your mind. Never say it can't be done, I just take it as a challenge.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 16, 2018)

When I was looking at that RF30, and it's daunting 660 lbs heft, even though it was mounted on a bench, I had a hard time considering it mini. So let me get this straight, just raising the head by way of the crank that is a rack and pinion sort of design, it would need recentering? Wow, that is a bit of a pain.
Hopefully this PM works out this weekend....


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## Superburban (Aug 16, 2018)

It moves some about the column. The distance from the spindle to the column stays the same, as does the Tram (spindle bore being 90 degs to the table).

If you are not in the middle of a project, if it turns a 1/2" thats your new starting point. If you had a DRO, all you need to do is hit the zero. If you don't, you just find the center, or edge, or whatever, for your starting point, on the project.

If you have ever used a drill press, and moved the table, the relation of the spindle center to the center hole on the table changes, But the angle of the hole that gets drilled, to the table stays the same.

If you rotate the head, so it is not in line with the column, or 90 degs to the table, then you need to retram the head. That is the same as most mills. But also something you may never do.

Only times I can think of that I had somewhat of a problem, was: I drilled a hole, then wanted to use the boring head, but did not have enough room, so I had to raise the head. but then I lost the center of the hole, and had to use an indicator to get the spindle lined up with the hole again. Then use the boring bar.  An extra minute maybe. Or when I needed to drop the head to continue boring the air compressor.

Yea, you generally hear them referred to as a mill- drill, But then compared to my Van Norman, it is mini. LOL.

Definitely prefer the PM, and the DRO.


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## C-Bag (Aug 16, 2018)

Superburban said:


> The only real limitations are in your mind. Never say it can't be done, I just take it as a challenge.



THIS is like  my hero Frank Zappa said, is the crux of the biscuit. That has been the hardest concept to wrap my head around with pure machining. I was a mechanic and the machining I did used machines that were specific to the job. Line bore, valve grinding, brake lathe, head surfacing, cylinder boring and Sunnen rod hone. They did what they did and I don't remember trying to adapt them to doing other things. So getting a mill and lathe was so open ended. Seeing 
 how different folks get it done on various forums and YouTube using what they have and creativity is pretty inspiring.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 16, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> THIS is like  my hero Frank Zappa said, is the crux of the biscuit. That has been the hardest concept to wrap my head around with pure machining. I was a mechanic and the machining I did used machines that were specific to the job. Line bore, valve grinding, brake lathe, head surfacing, cylinder boring and Sunnen rod hone. They did what they did and I don't remember trying to adapt them to doing other things. So getting a mill and lathe was so open ended. Seeing
> how different folks get it done on various forums and YouTube using what they have and creativity is pretty inspiring.


i entirely agree, though complete free style is a bit early for me. I'm a year head, rebuilt my first carb (motorcycle) when I was 7. I gotta learn the chops first. Watching some here is inspiring, but I don't believe that's gonna just be natural for me.


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## Superburban (Aug 16, 2018)

When you are not doing it for a living, or to that bike running again, you can play around, and try different ideas.

The first things I made on the mill, were a simple set of drink coasters. Then I realized I really needed a vise, and got one off E-bag, that was missing the jaws. So I made a couple of sets. 

Once I got my mind off the idea of messing stuff up (Retired, so its mainly just time and materials wasted). things become easier. 

Don't have to think just metal. I just used some big PCV fittings, and machined one down to make an adaptor to use a V8 air filter housing on my RV's Onan generator.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 16, 2018)

Interesting, I do need to make some very precise gauges out of 1/2" acrylic. ..never thought about milling it! Wonder where I'd find 1/2" acrylic plate? That's for that direction. ..outside metal....


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## C-Bag (Aug 16, 2018)

For me I'd never even think about owning a lathe or mill without the project I'd need it for. As a mech we never had a lathe or mill in the various shops and when I took metal shop in high school we didn't have required projects for the lathe. So I just messed with the lathe and like everybody else made a pipe. I don't remember specifically seeing a mill in the shop. But there were endless times as a line mech where I had to make a tool with scrap metal, welder, grinders and a drill press. All stuff you'd find in a repair shop. Even at the dealerships there were things we had to do there weren't specific tools for. So it's about visualizing the tool or piece. And for the first time I can really carry through so now have to visualize the process and steps involved.

In reading about the shortcomings of the RF30 there were always proposed workarounds. To keep from losing register by moving the head up and down I noticed early on the biggest culprit was the drill chuck for eating up Z. So I quit using it and got a complete set of R8 collets and sets of screw length drill bits. Yeah, lots of tool/collet changes but whatchagonnado?  The next was a cheap DRO setup and while not fancy and can't lay out bolt circles or do trig, it does make it so I can jog clear of the part and mount the new tool then jog back and get right back to 0. The last workaround that I'd heard of but had always been able to get around with my collets and sets of bits was I had to lift the head for a boring head. The workaround was putting a magnetic laser on the head and shooting across the garage to use a plumb bob line to keep register. Worked perfectly and once again HF comes to the rescue for less than $30.

If I ever do get a big boy mill it will be so much easier because I won't have to plan out the whole process so extensively. But I don't feel like I've wasted my time. It's brain training


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## Superburban (Aug 16, 2018)

I think I could get back to a place outside Philadelphia, but thats a heck of a drive, when there is so many online places now days. 

I have a small stash of the white plastic cutting boards. I grab them at yard sales, if I see them cheap. Except for some soft jaws, I have not done much except to collect.


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## Superburban (Aug 17, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> when I took metal shop in high school we didn't have required projects for the lathe. So I just messed with the lathe and like everybody else made a pipe. I don't remember specifically seeing a mill in the shop.


Thats funny. I was thinking the same thing earlier, Cannot recall any mills. We had projects to make. I made an all metal hammer. Mostly on the lathe, and band saw. Also a cold chisel. I still have those. In the foundry portion, I made a big penney. And a crazy piece of jewelry, made by silver soldering some copper, brass, and stainless on top of each other, and polishing forever.

Classess that high schools should not have done away with. Metal shop, Wood shop, Home ec, drivers ed, art. They may not have a direct connection with needed skill set, but shure do add an all around knowledge of how things work.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 17, 2018)

They don’t have wood/metal shop in school any longer??
The idea with the laser on the head to get back in exact position is genius. I’m sure there are workarounds to the issues of all mills, I’m gonna have my own set of issues if I get this PM727.
I’m sure you can you use lesser tools if you don’t have a mill or lathe, but I have watched people make tools/parts etc...that are better quality, fit finish that you can find about anywhere. 
There is time for backyard mechanic and no doubt a time for precision machining. I’m excited for the door this will open, assuming I’m alive long enough to learn the ropes.
I’m not good with trigonometry....


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## C-Bag (Aug 17, 2018)

When I graduated from high school in '72 the industrial arts were in the process of contracting so de industrialization was already in progress. Metalshop had all the tools for foundry, machining and welding but we were only offered gas and electric welding with projects. If you wanted to do other things you could and the teacher would help you. Wish I'd had something in mind, but my focus was get outta there ASAP so honked on all my core classes and took electronics, auto shop and metal shop as alt science requirements. It's shameful none of this is offered anymore. If you are not even exposed to it you have no concept. So like the kid who has no idea where their food comes from consumers have no idea what it takes to make something.

Most times what I want or need is not available so now I can finally make it and it doesn't have to look like it was made by a caveman. My main "problem" is project creep, DIY cascade? Where I go to make one thing and I have to learn something and then make something or upgrade other tools. Its like a rock in a pond and ripples seem to go in all directions across the whole shop. My last cascade has lasted several months now and has involved almost every major machine tool in the shop which I never foresaw when it started. I use my shop to make a product I've been selling online for 33yrs so as production goes up I need to upgrade and every upgrade causes a cascade. It seems to be a never ending cycle about which I'm not complaining or bragging. It just is. And without a my ultra cheap Taiwan/Chinese machine tools would never happen.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 17, 2018)

C-bag, that is exactly where I have been for the last 10 years...”project creep” BUT, I have come to the realization that I love now (as a hobby) as what my dad for a living. I WISHED I learned more from him when I was younger. I did in relation to motorcycles & cars, but I was dead set on being a professional musician...that didn’t pan out. As far as cheep Chinese, it does really vary in fit and finish. I’m not dead set against it, but there in no doubt, pride in “made in America” but either it doesn’t exist or too expensive. I don’t remember when I came to the realization Craftsman was no longer made in America, but it was a bit depressing really. 
This thread has really been all over the place, but if I was another newb looking for answers, you guys really have put a lot in here...and I appreciate it. Hopefully the end will be here in 3 days!


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## C-Bag (Aug 17, 2018)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Hopefully the end will be here in 3 days!



LOL, my friend it's only gone to the next level. The old adage "the more you know the more you realize you don't know" is appropriate. As a fellow musician I believe you can use that same creativity to move you forward. Seeing how seemingly limited the 12 tone system is but the incredible range of music made with it can be directly applied. Sometimes the process is obvious, sometimes it has to sit on my dense skull for a while. That was one of the more valuable lessons I got from some of the old guys I worked with. There is always something else to do while things get clearer in my mind. Waste always happens when I get too hasty and run off half cocked.

Early on while I was still doing research on a mill and lathe I went through hours and hours of Mr. Pete's YouTube channel. Even when I had done something he covered I always came away with some jewel I didn't know. I'm grateful for him preserving his knowledge and experience as a shop teacher. YouTube is such an incredible resource. Just like music, I spend lots more time listening than playing. Seeing how theses guys approach a project is time well spent.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 18, 2018)

Spoke to the gentleman selling, we are still on, starting my long drive in t minus 12 hours, starting now.....Got an open trailer as this thing is over 6' tall and it supposed to rain. God know we have been getting hail from hell!


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 19, 2018)

So, I'm sure this thread needs to go to bed permanently...doing that now. Thanks for everyone's input and advice, again greatly appreciated!
This place buys/sells CNC mills and lathes the size of buses..literally. 
Here she was a little machine in a crowd of monsters;


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 19, 2018)

Loading up for. 110 mile drI've;


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 19, 2018)

Her new home where it can be a big fish in a little pond. Hoping everything works good, I'm beat, it'll have to wait.


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## Superburban (Aug 19, 2018)

Congrats, get some well deserved rest, see you in the next thread.


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