# Machinist Level???



## AR. Hillbilly (May 8, 2016)

My lathe is finished and working to my satisfaction. I will now clean and paint the cabinet and move it to its permanent spot. When that happens I'll need a machinist level. I've got sticker shock from what I've looked at. I've looked on ebay and seen some good deals but I have no way of knowing if they're any good. I've never laid eyes on a real machinist level. I don't know how big or what to look for. My lathe is a Sheldon 10 x 36. any direction would help. I don't mind spending some money on quality tools but it bothers me a bit if it's something I'll only use once or twice a year.


----------



## TOOLMASTER (May 8, 2016)

really isn't anything special other than in years past they were considered more accurate...todays levels are just as good  for the most part...i use my iphone level


----------



## Andre (May 8, 2016)

You don't need a level to setup your lathe. Chuck up a bar of metal in the chuck and take a cut. The larger the bar the better, whatever can fit in your lathe and you can get your hands on. Do not use the tailstock for the first test cut.

Take a cut and measure the diameter at both ends with a micrometer;

If the bar gets smaller towards the headstock - add shims to the lathe foot on the tailstock end facing the operator.

If the bar gets larger towards the headstock - add shims to the lathe foot on the tailstock end away from the operator (usually facing the wall)

Here is a sketch:


----------



## Tony Wells (May 8, 2016)

Just keep in mind that the lathe may not perform properly even if it is dead level with the most expensive, "best" level you could possible get.  It's all about turning and facing straight and square. 

And remember.....do they use levels aboard ships to set up machines?


----------



## Andre (May 8, 2016)

Tony Wells said:


> And remember.....do they use levels aboard ships to set up machines?



That reminds me of this lathe South Bend made. The ship floor can move and twist, let this lathe would still cut fairly straight. I think it's a 16/24.


----------



## Tony Wells (May 8, 2016)

I wouldn't want to be under attack and have to make parts on rough seas, but they did it because it was necessary. And they didn't mess around tweaking the machines to a gnats behind between battles either, I'd bet. They had a job to do and had to be ready at all times.


----------



## TOOLMASTER (May 8, 2016)

thats cool..


----------



## Tozguy (May 8, 2016)

I couldn't justify buying a machinists level just to install my lathe. Using a regular level is good enough to get the lathe close to level for best oil flow to bearings and drain.
Turning tests as mentioned above, to make sure there is no twist in the ways, are more important than getting the lathe dead nuts level.


----------



## MSD0 (May 8, 2016)

Keep in mind that it doesn't have to be "level" as your really trying to take any twist out of the bed. There's some info on the last couple of pages about leveling a lathe http://www.wswells.com/data/howto/H-3.pdf


----------



## kd4gij (May 8, 2016)

I just used the level I have and it worked out fine..


----------



## AR. Hillbilly (May 8, 2016)

Thanks for the help guys. This has to be the best place for a beginner like me. I truly do appreciate the help to newbs here. I have one more question. My lathe cabinet(which I really like) has a wooden top. It's 1-1/4" thick plywood sitting on top of the metal cabinet. Will this be a problem?


----------



## Tony Wells (May 8, 2016)

Shouldn't be, unless you do end up fighting with a lot of twist in the bed, and then it only means it will take a while to get it to settle down. The plywood will indent where the leg is that you need to pull down, and periodically you will need to do through the anti-twist actions again. You will start seeing it creep into your work, so you just have to remember that you need to check it with the test turning and re-establish a straight bed. Other than that, I like a wood top under a small machine. It absorbs some of the noise and vibration.


----------



## mksj (May 8, 2016)

Andre said:


> The ship floor can move and twist, let this lathe would still cut fairly straight. I think it's a 16/24.


Beautiful lathe, I wouldn't expect any twist since it is a 3 point floor support like the Monarch 10ee lathe. Wonder why it is not used in new lathes.


----------



## TOOLMASTER (May 8, 2016)

as long as you can flip your level end to end on a straight surface and get the same reading both ways your level is good.


----------



## TOOLMASTER (May 8, 2016)

if you have a mill you can make one...


----------



## Bob Korves (May 9, 2016)

If you are looking for levels on Ebay or wherever, be careful of what you are buying.  Especially on Ebay, price and size are not necessarily a good guide for quality and precision.  The important thing is the accuracy per unit distance.  The brand of the level does not tell you.  Starrett makes .005" per 10" as well as .0005" per 10 inches.  They are not the same, count the zeros.  One is 10 times more accurate than the other.  Starrett also makes levels more and less accurate than either of those.  The other companies do, too.  A 12" level may look more manly than a 6" level, but if they have the same stated level of accuracy, they are the same other than size.  Size can matter depending on what you are measuring.  Too small can not bridge a gap, too big can not fit in many places.  I have an import level with an accuracy of .0005" per 10", and it is quite precise, but it is also a pain in the butt to use for leveling machines.  It needs to be re-calibrated for each session.  If you hold it in your hand for a minute, your body heat will throw it off wildly.  You have to wait for a couple minutes to read the bubble accurately.  A minor tweak of the feet of a mill or lathe buries the bubble off the end of the scale.  Yes, it works, but it is overkill for the job and just too fussy to use for that work.  I guess a level with .005" per foot or so would be quite useful for leveling machines that are making parts that will stay in the earth's atmosphere.  Electronic levels:  Watch the numbers.  Resolution, repeatability, and accuracy are quite different things, and you need to understand what they mean and which is being quoted.  There are a lot of not very accurate or repeatable electronic levels out there which are being sold as precision levels at prices that are way out of line for what they really are.


----------



## Tozguy (May 9, 2016)

AR. Hillbilly said:


> Thanks for the help guys. This has to be the best place for a beginner like me. I truly do appreciate the help to newbs here. I have one more question. My lathe cabinet(which I really like) has a wooden top. It's 1-1/4" thick plywood sitting on top of the metal cabinet. Will this be a problem?



Sounds like a solid piece of plywood! Just the same it is wood and wood works from changes in humidity, some species of wood more than others.
It may or may not be a problem but you might be able to mitigate the potential in certain ways; controlled humidity, good full coat of PU floor varnish, leaving the tailstock bolt down a bit looser, and maybe others. 
May we see pictures of your lathe and cabinet?


----------



## AR. Hillbilly (May 9, 2016)

This pic is before the restoration but right after I got it all cleaned up. I can get more pics if needed. I have all the drawers. The cabinet weighs as much as the lathe


----------



## Tozguy (May 9, 2016)

Thanks, looks like a solid machine! Not so concerned about the plywood now.


----------



## jocat54 (May 9, 2016)

I have always wondered about using one of the digital angle blocks for a level. I thick sheet of paper will change the reading on mine by about .2
I don't have any idea how accurate they would be compared to a machinist level, has anyone else used them to level their lathe?


----------



## RJSakowski (May 9, 2016)

jocat54 said:


> I have always wondered about using one of the digital angle blocks for a level. I thick sheet of paper will change the reading on mine by about .2
> I don't have any idea how accurate they would be compared to a machinist level, has anyone else used them to level their lathe?


I have the iGaging digital level.  Although it reads to .05º, it is  reliable to .2º, or .1º at best.  A .005"/10" machinists level can easily resolve a change in angle of .03º and a .0005"/10" machinists level can resolve change in angle of .003º. 

While I have not peeked inside, the iGaging level most likely makes use of a pendulum to detect a plumb condition.  As such, it has a set of bearings and bearings have friction.  This is the reason why you get different readings when approaching an angle from different directions or when measuring the same angle multiple times.

I use my iGaging level for doing setups where the angle is not critical.  I would not attempt to use it for leveling a machine.  My carpenter's level is just as sensitive and there is no bearing friction to contend with.


----------



## John Hasler (May 9, 2016)

RJSakowski said:


> While I have not peeked inside, the iGaging level most likely makes use of a pendulum to detect a plumb condition. As such, it has a set of bearings and bearings have friction.


No bearings.  They use a MEMS inclinometer similar to these:

http://www.digikey.com/en/product-h...onics-north-america/mems-inclinometer-sensors

but with lower accuracy and therefor cheaper.


----------



## TOOLMASTER (May 9, 2016)

.............


----------



## RJSakowski (May 9, 2016)

John Hasler said:


> No bearings.  They use a MEMS inclinometer similar to these:
> 
> http://www.digikey.com/en/product-h...onics-north-america/mems-inclinometer-sensors
> 
> but with lower accuracy and therefor cheaper.


Thanks for the clarification John.  I have clearly been out of touch with the technology.

With a .001º resolution, the Murata SCA103T-D04-1 would make an interesting machinist's level.  Sounds like a fun project!


----------



## RJSakowski (May 9, 2016)

TOOLMASTER said:


> .............
> 
> View attachment 128618


An interesting ap but not available for Android systems.  I checked one of the other level options out but, at least on my phone, it would drive me crazy trying to use it for precision leveling.


----------



## mksj (May 9, 2016)

I have a digital level that reads to 0.01 degree, but agree in general I do not trust it other than generalized leveling. The digital level will resolve 0.01, but calibrate it and flip it and you can see a slight error of about 0.04 degree (or more).  Fine for a mill or most machinery, but I think with a lathe I would recommend a 0.0005" per 10" as a minimum if you are trying to detect bed twist. Anything less, and you do not have the ability to detect anything other than gross variations in bed twist. Lots of variations on types and precision/ability to read the bubble reliably.  I use an 8" long precision level (EDA - SPI) for the lathe, sometimes a longer won't fit across the ways. I use 123 blocks on the way flats and put the level on top in the same position as I move down the ways. Precision levels come with various types of bases, some might have a slight hollowing in the center or have feet at either end, so I always position the level in the same position on the blocks (level is centered between the blocks) when leveling. I seem to have very little change from handling my level, it has a very heavy body and an enclosed bubble chamber but it does need to stabilize at the temperature/area they are being used.


----------



## koba49 (Jun 8, 2016)

Tony Wells said:


> I wouldn't want to be under attack and have to make parts on rough seas, but they did it because it was necessary. And they didn't mess around tweaking the machines to a gnats behind between battles either, I'd bet. They had a job to do and had to be ready at all times.


Tony I was on a tin can you do get used to running the lathe when everything is moving, on a small ship they will not have you running the lathe if the sea state is real bad , on larger ships like an aircraft carrier you battle station could be at a lathe or milling machine .


----------



## T Bredehoft (Jun 8, 2016)

In the absence of a machinist's level, I had taper of about .0006 in an inch, fat at the chuck. I put a piece of .025 under the back (right end)  foot of my Clausing MK2, and got it down to .0002.  I expect another .005 would make it straight, but for the length I'm concerned about now, .0002 is close enough.


----------



## Gary Gill (Jun 8, 2016)

Tagging this thread for future reference.  Thanks for some good information.


----------



## Dan_S (Jun 8, 2016)

Per the iGaging website:

http://www.igaging.com/page49.html
resolution : 0.05°
accuracy : 0.2°
repeatability : 0.1°


0.05° ~= 0.010"/ft    for reference my Starrett 98-6 is 0.005"/ft


----------



## Charles Spencer (Jun 8, 2016)

kd4gij said:


> I just used the level I have and it worked out fine..



That's what I did.  Later I got a machinist level and used it to check both of my lathes.  They were both good.


----------



## jjtgrinder (Jun 11, 2016)

Try this for cheap , it works.


----------



## Downunder Bob (Jun 12, 2016)

Andre said:


> That reminds me of this lathe South Bend made. The ship floor can move and twist, let this lathe would still cut fairly straight. I think it's a 16/24.


I spent most of my working life at sea as a Marine Engineer, and used many lathes and milling machines while at sea. Some ships had the machines very well mounted on a really rigid steel base frame so the flexing of the ship did not affect them, while others they were just bolted or even welded to the deck. This quite often resulted in a fine chatter pattern so that finish cuts had to be done with a file and fine emery tape, or if possible wait until the ship was in port and stable.  I notice the lathe in the picture has a swivel foot at the tail stock end, and is quite possibly made for that exact use.


----------



## Cadillac STS (Jun 24, 2016)

bobshobby said:


> I spent most of my working life at sea as a Marine Engineer, and used many lathes and milling machines while at sea. Some ships had the machines very well mounted on a really rigid steel base frame so the flexing of the ship did not affect them, while others they were just bolted or even welded to the deck. This quite often resulted in a fine chatter pattern so that finish cuts had to be done with a file and fine emery tape, or if possible wait until the ship was in port and stable.  I notice the lathe in the picture has a swivel foot at the tail stock end, and is quite possibly made for that exact use.



What type of work would you do at sea with a lathe or milling machine?  I know they are used for repairing broken items but was there any regular work going on?


----------



## Downunder Bob (Jun 24, 2016)

Cadillac STS said:


> What type of work would you do at sea with a lathe or milling machine?  I know they are used for repairing broken items but was there any regular work going on?



G'day Cadillac,It would depend a great deal on the type of ship, the size, the run and the cargo. Most of my experience was on various cargo ships ranging from 100m to 300m long, and from 20,000 T to 136,000 T. The cargo's varied from bulk carriers, petroleum tankers, general cargo and containers. they were all driven by large slow and medium speed diesel engines Ranging from about 10,000 BHP to 20,000 BHP. For a typical engine google Sulzer 6RTA 76 this engine with 6 cylinders of 76cm bore produces about 14,000hp at 80 RPM. 

Typical machining work would involve routine jobs like facing exhaust valves and seats. Making up new sealing rings for centrifugal pumps, Repairing/ replacing anything that was worn out or broken, making special tools to make routine service jobs easier, safer and quicker. Machining worn pump shafts and making a sleeve for them, re cutting worn piston ring grooves on air compressor pistons, to fit oversize rings. I've even had to make a new spool for a hydraulic valve that had lost it's chrome plating due to salt waster getting under it. This is generally done ashore on a specialised center less grinder or a center grinder on a chrome plated spool, the required finish is very fine and a finished dia. of +- 0.0001". The spool was 2"Dia. and 10"long.  Some of the other guys on the ship said I couldn't do it, my standard answer was "Watch me". Yes, it worked long enough to get us back to home port where a new part had been ordered and was waiting.

 we often welded up or braze worn parts and machine back to size, sometimes with hard facing. We also managed on occasion to make a home job for our own use.


----------



## gi_984 (Jul 3, 2016)

bobshobby, very impressive.  What brands/models of machines did you use on board?


----------



## Downunder Bob (Jul 3, 2016)

gi_984 said:


> bobshobby, very impressive.  What brands/models of machines did you use on board?



Too many brands and models to remember, would often depend on where the ship was built and who it was built for. Commonly they would be British, Australian, German, Swedish, and Japanese. Usually because that is where the ship was built.

Most commonly we would just get a good lathe usually with a swing of between 12"  and 18" and a bed of 24"to 48 ", these dimensions would be related to the size of the parts we would be required to work on.  Sometimes we would be lucky and get a modest mill or a thee way combination lathe and mill.


----------



## epanzella (Jul 3, 2016)

I got my machinists level from Grizzly. .0005" per 10 inches. Each graduation is .0002".   $107. Worked great. You don't absolutely need a good level but it sure makes the job go a lot quicker. I'm a contractor with plenty of good carpentry levels. I can put my machinist level on top of my best carpentry level and make the bubble go off one end of the scale of the machinists level and then the other end without the bubble moving on the carpentry level. It's not the quality of the level it's the taper of the glass vile that gives you the .0005 per 10 inches. It doesn't even matter if it's perfectly accurate as long as you use it facing the same way every time. A good method to use with any level.


----------



## jimbob (Jul 7, 2016)

M


----------



## TakeDeadAim (Jul 7, 2016)

You dont need the most expensive level you just need to calibrate the one you do have.  Any decent precision level will be adjustable so you need to or borrow a known flat and level surface like a surface plate.  I find a good spot on the plate then use an angle plate or heavy straight edge to mark a spot to put the level against.  Turn the level 180 degrees adjust the vial until it reads the same in direction.  Be careful its very sensitive.  When you level your lathe do the same thing.  So long as you put the level down in the same spot this always works.  I have leveled many machines this way from lathes to large boring bars.

There are two kinds of lathes, ones built with solid beds that don't flex much and those that are not as stiff and can be twisted easier and the jacks used to get them cutting straight.  They will all adjust with the jack screws to some extent.  Some are actually made to have wear adjusted out of them, the old W&S turret lathes were a perfect example of that design.  Newer  lathes have the headstock as a separate casting from the bed so the hardened ways can be surfaced easier then the head bolted on and aligned to the ways, with the final tune in done with the two cut rings method.

Ive done many, let me know if you need help.


----------

