# can anyone identify this model?



## rambin

I just bought a lathe, I was told it was an older south bend and not knowing any better...(it did have similarities) I brought it home... anyhow i've  been told its actually a Montgomery wards/logan...  It has some wear on it...needs some repairs, hoping some of you logan people can identify the model and size and give me an idea on where to find parts that would fit it....   I do need a 3 jaw prbly for starters...  this is just for hobby work so i'm trying to keep it in budget


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## CluelessNewB

Below is a link with a list of all of the Logan models.   I do believe it is one of the Wards branded Logans.  

http://www.lathe.com/models.htm

Another reference are the old Wards Powercraft catalogs available for download at the Vintage Machinery site:

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=2093&tab=3

I believe all of the Wards branded Logans had 1 1/2-8 spindles so finding a chuck should be no problem.


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## rambin

the number 2646 is on the right side of the ways below the tail stock if that means anything to you? other then that there are no marking to be found


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## CluelessNewB

That would be the serial number.   It looks like it was made around 1941.  There is a Yahoo Group called "lathe-list".  Scott Logan maintains a database of serial numbers there.  You can send him the serial number and he can identify when it was made and the model number.  You will need to sign up for a Yahoo account and become a member of the group "lathe-list". 

https://groups.yahoo.com

I think it may be a model 700, but that's only a guess.


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## rambin

talked to someone at logan actuator they said it was built for montomery wards in 1941 and was probably a model 04tlc-700a.   so  that narrows it down quite a bit... so now I'm looking for any info on that model...


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## CluelessNewB

I don't know of any user manual you can download for free.   Logan Actuator sells manuals for most of the machines, I'm guessing it's the one linked below but you should verify that before ordering:

http://store.lathe.com/pl-04.html

This is the Wards tool catalog from 1941 that I believe shows your lathe (pages 18 and 19) 

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/657/847.pdf


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## rambin

was just looking at a different wards catalogue from 41 when I seen your link... hard to believe their pricing even back then! and your right ive found manuals for free for logan 200 models which are very similar but that link you sent for the  pl-04 is 25 bucks on there       and I don't know if its any better then this one
http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2093/3353.pdf


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## CluelessNewB

Most of it will be similar but the rear drive assembly and top belt covers for the Wards lathe are different.   The 200 (and the 820 like I have) have a mechanism that loosens the flat belts when you open the top cover, the Wards lathes have a hand lever to loosen the belts.  I'm not sure what other differences there might be.  I would suspect the change gear charts would be the same.  If you run into problems you might want to have a correct parts manual.


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## Silverbullet

Hi welcome , I own an old logan also its 11" swing , had it for forty years it's done lots of work for me. I've got so much tooling I couldn't sell it for less the $3,000 , even then I'd lose money. Only thing I don't have is a taper attachment, wish I did but there crazy priced to buy used. Good lathe if you take care of it.


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## rambin

well I was able to get the 4 jaw off, probably found one of the reasons the prev owner thought it was a southy.....the 4 jaw chuck was a south bend..not sure if you can read the writing in the pics or not....also took a pic of the threads looks like 1/1/2???  I didn't have a thread gage that would go that high but im thinking 1 1/2 8   ?   now for some reason when I put the unit in back gear it locks every thing up solid??    I also pulled off the brass plate where there used to be an electrical switch,  will get a new switch next time im at the store, hate having to plug and unplug the motor all the time


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## rambin

also would like to know what the original motor pulley size was as you can see in the pic, someone has hacked on a 4 wide pulley setup,  need to do some work there!


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## wa5cab

Rambin (you need to set up your signature),

1-1/2"-8 is most likely what it is.  But you don't need a thread pitch gauge to confirm it.  Lay the scale shown in one of your photos down on the spindle nose, with zero in line with the first full thread.  Another thread should appear in line with every 1/8" mark on the scale.  And the major diameter of the threads should be 1-1/2" or up to about .005" less when measured with a caliper set.

There are a lot of different ways in which they are done on various brand lathes, but there are two basic steps on almost all lathes to switch from Direct drive to Back Gear drive.  Step 1 is to take the machine out of Direct drive.  Step 2 is to put it into back gear drive.  To go back to Direct drive, you reverse the order.  Step 1 is to take it out of Back Gear.  Step 2 is to put it back into Direct.  It sounds as though you are skipping step 1.  Some machines have a lever for each step.  But in your case, I think that I see the head of the direct drive pin in your 6th photo showing the spindle nose and bearinbg.  The pin goes through a hole in the bull gear and into a hole in the right end of the spindle pulley,  The pin has some sort of spring loaded ball detent in the bull gear that holds the pin either IN or OUT.  If there isn't already one, make a mark on the right rim of the spindle pulley and in line with the pin.  Pull the pin toward the tailstock until the ball clicks into the second detent.  You should not be able to turn the spindle freely, without turning the motor.  Now do Step 2.

Before you run the lathe in back gear, find and remove the oil screw from the spindle pulley.  It is probably in the OD of the 2nd or third pulley step.  Squirt SAE 20 into the hole, replace the oil screw, and run the lathe in back gear for about 10 seconds.  The first time that you do it, repeat the steps twice.  After that, oil the pulley bushings every day that you use back gear or once every 6 months or so.  And oil the back gear bushings with the same frequency.

I can't help with the pulley size.


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## CluelessNewB

You aren't the first person to ask about Logan back gears.   See this old thread: 

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/engaging-back-gear-logan-820.53991/

The original thread on the spindle was 1 -1/2" x 8 tpi on all Logan lathes 10" and under according to table:
  http://www.lathe.com/models.htm 

The same thread is what many Atlas and Southbend  lathes of similar size used.


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## rambin

thanks wa5 I found that little plunger and pulled it out and there she was....hard to get my big fingers on it though...  slowly figuring this thing out...  definatly would like to  find out the proper pully size from the motor though... then I would have an idea what speeds im turning at...  since I only have a 4 jaw I need to get a dial indicator to center it I guess... any suggestions there im not wanting to throw big money on this thing right now so i''m willing to deal with an off shore  brand


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## wa5cab

I cant see enough of the direct drive pin's head to say but on the Atlas lathes and mills, the pin heads have a groove cut around them into which you can fit the tip of a slot blade screwdriver for pulling the pin out without getting your fingers greasy.  The mill (whose direct drive pin is difficult even to see, let alone access) came with a special tool that looked like a miniature bent-tip flat pry bar with a round bottom slot cut in the tip.  I don't know whether or not the Logan/Wards pins have the groove in the pin head.


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## rambin

ah I used the needle nose wasn't too bad...


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## wa5cab

OK.


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## rambin

todays mission was to fix that switch plate someone had left....  polished the brass filler plate up  and bought a new switch and some ext cord cable and went to town...looks better and a lot easier to turn on..no more messing with a plug!


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## rambin

took the apron off to investigate some wobble in the apron crank....  found out the hole in the casting was off center causing it to look like a bent crank...  also found some brazing repair under the apron...how that ever happened i'll never know but apparently it broke somewhere along the line... cleaned it all up and oiled it.... auto cross feed is working but not the apron travel, think the split nut is wore too bad???


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## Nogoingback

Are the split nuts closing properly around the shaft?  There is a plate that moves them when the handle is rotated
that has to go together one way.  The slots milled in it "cam" the half nut in place.  If it was assembled incorrectly you may not get full travel of the half nuts.


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## rambin

i believe they are closing properly? I don't believe there supposed to close right tight together?    hard to tell in the pic I put up but there doesn't seem to be a lot of thread depth there...


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## Nogoingback

Do they close far enough to engage the threads on the shaft?


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## wa5cab

I don't know the intentions of the Logan designer but have always assumed that half nuts should close completely.  Take your pair (loose) and clamp them closed around the lead screw down near the right end where there shouldn't be an wear on the screw threads.  Measure the end float of the nut.  Do the same thing up in the area where the nut would be when the carriage is near the chuck.  The difference is screw wear.  Repeat the two tests with a new pair of half nuts if you can.  The differences in end float between the two sets of half nuts would be attributable to nut wear.  

Install the old nuts and then the new nuts in the apron, position the carriage so that the half nuts are in the same location on the lead screw as in the second test and measure the carriage end float.  The difference between the half nut end float and the carriage end float will be due to looseness and wear in the half nut closing mechanism.  Not having a parts manual I can't say which parts you might want to replace.


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## rambin

i'll have to take the apron off and remove the half nuts to try that properly I guess..  is there a certain gear the lathe should be set in for general work....not thread cutting? I know mine was set slow as hell and I was trying to diagnose things so I put it on a different gear setup to move things along....  I really think new half nuts are in order but I'm not in a hurry for that....broke the belt today, now gottta look into where a person gets leather belts?  seems I'm 1 step fwd and 4 back on this thing


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## wa5cab

RA,

Typical feeds per spindle revolution are perhaps in the range of 0.002" to 0.008".  On my Atlas 12", I usually use 0.0042 or 0.0044 (which are its two slowest feeds) for finish and 0.0078" for roughing.

On some machines, it is possible to pull the half nuts without pulling the spindle.  However, in you case I would pull the apron first so that you can see what it is doing.


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## rambin

wa5 I'm new to all this so your .0002" doesn't mean much to me...I would need to add subtract gears to make it work for a certain thread... no knowing what speed that would be?  pulling the apron is not a bad job I will maybe try to find time  tomoro...  still need to track down a belt b4 I can do anything...


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## Nogoingback

rambin said:


> wa5 I'm new to all this so your .0002" doesn't mean much to me...I would need to add subtract gears to make it work for a certain thread... no knowing what speed that would be?  pulling the apron is not a bad job I will maybe try to find time  tomoro...  still need to track down a belt b4 I can do anything...



rambin, There are three belt options.  Logan sells a glued belt that requires spindle removal.  Some folks have also used serpentine belts from the auto parts store, but that option also
requires that the spindle be removed. Logan can also sell you a belt with a clip that can be used without removing the spindle:  http://store.lathe.com/drive.html. If you decide to order
from Logan, be sure you have your serial number handy when you call: they'll ask for it.


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## wa5cab

RA,

Carriage feed rates are independent of spindle RPM. They are measured in inches per one spindle revolution.  The speed that the carriage moves to the left is a function of both feed rate and spindle RPM.  But how much it moves for each revolution of the spindle is not.affected by RPM of the spindle.


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## rambin

Nogoingback said:


> rambin, There are three belt options.  Logan sells a glued belt that requires spindle removal.  Some folks have also used serpentine belts from the auto parts store, but that option also
> requires that the spindle be removed. Logan can also sell you a belt with a clip that can be used without removing the spindle:  http://store.lathe.com/drive.html. If you decide to order
> from Logan, be sure you have your serial number handy when you call: they'll ask for it.




the leather belt that broke appeared to be stapled together somehow...since I don't know how to remove the spindle im probably going to look into a belt with a clip.  I know the local menonites use a lot of belt driven tools  im thinking they might be a source foor a replacement leather belt.. will have to look into that when I get a chance...


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## rambin

wa5cab said:


> RA,
> 
> Carriage feed rates are independent of spindle RPM. They are measured in inches per one spindle revolution.  The speed that the carriage moves to the left is a function of both feed rate and spindle RPM.  But how much it moves for each revolution of the spindle is not.affected by RPM of the spindle.



the carriage feed speed is controlled by the gear combinations(no quick change on this machine), am I not correct?  im asking what gear settting I should normaly run in...what combination


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## GarageGuy

rambin said:


> the leather belt that broke appeared to be stapled together somehow...since I don't know how to remove the spindle im probably going to look into a belt with a clip.  I know the local menonites use a lot of belt driven tools  im thinking they might be a source foor a replacement leather belt.. will have to look into that when I get a chance...



The correct term for the connector on a leather belt is the "lace".  Clipper (brand name) lacing was, and still is popular.  There is a special tool needed to install the lacing on a leather belt.  You're right, the Menonites will probably know how to lace a belt for you.  Leather belts will have a tendency to stretch some, so set the jackshaft on your lathe for the shortest belt and add a little just to be safe.  Then as your belt stretches, you just adjust the jackshaft to keep the tension right.  On the Wards/Logan lathe, the belt adjustment may be in the engage/disengage lever.  It has been a long time and I can't remember for sure.  

GG


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## Nogoingback

rambin said:


> the carriage feed speed is controlled by the gear combinations(no quick change on this machine), am I not correct?  im asking what gear settting I should normaly run in...what combination



Rambin, do you have a copy of the Logan Operators Instructions for your lathe?  The gear train setup for various speeds is shown in a table there.  As Robert said, you would normally run a speed of .002 to 
.008: the table shows which change gears to use and an adjacent diagram shows where those gears are installed. You'll need that table to properly set up your change gears.  Looks like this:


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## wa5cab

I don't have any threading charts for your machine.  Normally, one would be attached to the inside of the change gear cover.  Most of it will be taken up by gear setups for various threads.  But one section (probably down at the bottom) should show the gears to use and where to put them for several choice of Feeds. Normally, the finer feeds will be used for finishing and the coarser ones for roughing.  Finer would be say 0.005" per revolution of less.  If your chart only shows threads per inch, Feed is measured in inches per spindle revolution so it is the inverse of threads per inch, which is the same as revolutions per inch.  So 125 TPI would be 0.008 inches per revolution.  And 250 tpi would be 0.004" per revolution.


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## rambin

GarageGuy said:


> The correct term for the connector on a leather belt is the "lace".  Clipper (brand name) lacing was, and still is popular.  There is a special tool needed to install the lacing on a leather belt.  You're right, the Menonites will probably know how to lace a belt for you.  Leather belts will have a tendency to stretch some, so set the jackshaft on your lathe for the shortest belt and add a little just to be safe.  Then as your belt stretches, you just adjust the jackshaft to keep the tension right.  On the Wards/Logan lathe, the belt adjustment may be in the engage/disengage lever.  It has been a long time and I can't remember for sure.
> 
> GG




that's a good point I was just going to measure the broken belt, there is a small turnbuckle type adjustment I should back right off and measure around the pullys with a  string I guess... now the big question should I get a solid belt and remove the spindle to install it or just get an open belt and try to  lace it shut myself...


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## rambin

Nogoingback said:


> Rambin, do you have a copy of the Logan Operators Instructions for your lathe?  The gear train setup for various speeds is shown in a table there.  As Robert said, you would normally run a speed of .002 to
> .008: the table shows which change gears to use and an adjacent diagram shows where those gears are installed. You'll need that table to properly set up your change gears.  Looks like this:


and the answer is no I dont have the operators manual yet... i know logan sells  a copy of it for 25 bucks i believeIve..  but im cheap and have  been looking for the free version online with no luck...which seems odd as everything is usually able to be found somewhere on the net... guess I will have to pay the piper.. 25 bucks is like 40 cdn right now      there is a gear change plack inside the door of the change gears but its very hard to read I will have a better look at it... thanks


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## GarageGuy

rambin said:


> that's a good point I was just going to measure the broken belt, there is a small turnbuckle type adjustment I should back right off and measure around the pullys with a  string I guess... now the big question should I get a solid belt and remove the spindle to install it or just get an open belt and try to  lace it shut myself...


I've used both laced leather and automotive serpentine belts.  It's just a personal preference thing.  Automotive serpentine is more permanent, but is more difficult to install.

GG

Sent from my Lenovo A5500-F using Tapatalk


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## CluelessNewB

I'm not 100% sure but I believe the threading charts for all Logan change gear lathes are the same.  The chart Nogoingback shared above and the link below from the Logan web site should work just fine for your lathe.     The link below may be better for printing out a copy.  The link below also has a list of the standard set of gears supplied with the lathes: 

http://www.lathe.com/990306.htm


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## LucknowKen

rambin said:


> the leather belt that broke appeared to be stapled together somehow...since I don't know how to remove the spindle im probably going to look into a belt with a clip.  I know the local menonites use a lot of belt driven tools  im thinking they might be a source foor a replacement leather belt.. will have to look into that when I get a chance...


If you were nearby you could use my Clipper. I should have some Bulldog brand laces for your belt.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/clipper-lacer-no-2-to-6-flat-belt-lacing.54878/


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## rambin

LucknowKen said:


> If you were nearby you could use my Clipper. I should have some Bulldog brand laces for your belt.
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/clipper-lacer-no-2-to-6-flat-belt-lacing.54878/


appreciate the offer but im up in northern on... sault area  so your a good ways away...It will be a week or 2 b4 I have time but im going to see if the Mennonites nearby can fix me up...they use all belted tools driven by diesels and driveshaft as they don't have power..


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## rambin

CluelessNewB said:


> I'm not 100% sure but I believe the threading charts for all Logan change gear lathes are the same.  The chart Nogoingback shared above and the link below from the Logan web site should work just fine for your lathe.     The link below may be better for printing out a copy.  The link below also has a list of the standard set of gears supplied with the lathes:
> 
> http://www.lathe.com/990306.htm


thanks I  had found that and printed it its the same as the one in my gear cover but that one is too small and worn to really read... It will be later next week b4 I get the chance to play with the gears...and even longer till I get a new belt..


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## rambin

well I ordered up the manual...and the parts diagrams...  downloaded   and had them printed off at the office store ouch.  not really a lot of info in there but its a start.. lots of the original sales ads included in there as filler material.  I measured what I thought the belt should be by closing the turnbuckle adjuster all the way in  and then measuring around the 2 pulleys  and then opening the turnbuckle most of the way and measuring again... i came up with 35.5  to 39 inches i believe... now in the replacement parts there are 2 sizes avail from logan a 38 and a 39 both seem to be at the upper end of the scale for length?? i would think anything would stretch over time??  and as the belt gets bigger and u adjust for such your throw distance decreases on the belt tensioner..


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## CluelessNewB

The belt needs to be long enough so that you can de-tension it when you want to move to a different pulley.  Leather belts do stretch significantly, synthetic stretch a little and you can adjust as required.


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## rambin

well the belt is ordered yesterdays mission was one change gear that was missing a few teeth...been many years since I pulled out the brazing rod.. but after I filled off the excess and wittled out the teeth it aint all that bad.... not perfect but this thing is 75 years old so this fix should outlast me...  rest of the change gears are in good shape surprisingly enough...   I also removed the gib screws from the cross feed and the compound, they had been mutilated over the years.. any idea where I could replace them?  think I took 7 of them out. for some reason it looks like square heads were welded onto a few of them, but most were just studs with a slot for a flat screwdriver and I would think that would be the original equipment ones...  tip of these  were threadless where they hit the gib.  any ideas?  and no locking nuts? is that normal?


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## LucknowKen

rambin said:


> .... not perfect but this thing is 75 years old so this fix should outlast me...  rest of the change gears are in good shape surprisingly enough...


Great recovery!


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## rambin

heres the variety of screws and abominations that were used to hold the gib strip....  hope someone can come up with some options, maybe some pics of what should be there?


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## CluelessNewB

They should be extended tip set screws (also called dog point) .  All of the screws on my Logan were slotted extended tip set screws.  Mine were in good condition so I reused them.   If I was to replace them I would go with hex (allen) rather than slotted.   If I remember correctly they were either 1/4-28 or 10-32 thread.   They are available from McMaster Carr here in the US, not sure about Canada.  Mine also have locking nuts (called jam nuts or thin nuts) also available from McMaster.  The jam nuts don't appear in the manual so they may have been added later.

Extended tip set screws:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#set-screws/=18htqde

Jam nuts:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#hex-jam-nuts/=18htvy8


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## Nogoingback

You can also buy gib screws from Logan.  They sell them without lock nuts: they come with nylon inserts in the screw.


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## wa5cab

I think that you will find (if you can find a source) that Allen, Bristol or Torx headless set screws will be less irritating to use than slotted.  And that you will find that the nylon inssert or patch syle screws definitely have a finite service life.  If you don't use the nylon insert type, you do need jam nuts.


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## rambin

ahh so your saying the nylon inserts don't last too long?  I tottaly agree that slotted heads are the most irritating...there basicly technology that is long gone in my books... I would probly prefer allen or torx.. don't know what Bristol is?  and a jam nut...  anyhow Ill look into that McMaster link someone posted above and see how bad there shipping is... im scared to look at the prices of them on the logan site


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## Mister Ed

Don't be afraid to look at your local hardware store as well. Probably cost a bit more, but the shipping is not there.

A lot of time I find myself buying onesies or twosies of something to decide what size I really want or if my idea is as good as I am imagining ... and then place a bulk order with a full line supplier.


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## wa5cab

rambin said:


> ahh so your saying the nylon inserts don't last too long?  I totally agree that slotted heads are the most irritating...they're basically technology that is long gone in my books... I would probably prefer allen or torx.. don't know what Bristol is?  and a jam nut...



RA,

Nylok nuts can usually be reused two or three times unless they are being subjected to unusual environments, like inside a high pressure pipeline.  Nylok and nylon patch screws are basically good for one installation.  They only have at most around 20 to 40% of the amount of nylon in contact that a nut has.  Jam nuts are less convenient but if you don't lose them or throw them away, should last the life of the machine.

Bristol is similar to Allen but with splines similar to torx.  The difference is that the splines on Bristol sockets and drivers have parallel sides whereas on Torx they are narrow "V" shaped.  They date back at least to before WW-II and were commonly used in place of Slot or Allen on most US military radios.  Like Torx, they are much less susceptable to rounding out the socket and rounding off the driver than are Allen.  But not too easy to find today.

A jam nut is a nut whose most common purpose is to lock a screw in place rather than to carry a load.  They are typically about 1/3 to 1/2 of the height of a standard hex nut.


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## rambin

the local hardware stores have slowly disappeared leaving the big box stores which only carry course threaded bolts in half inch denominations and nails ;p   I guess i'll have to figure out the length I need so I don't have too much length hanging out past the jam nut and look into that McMaster car  thing. be nice to know what the stock size was if it did in fact come with locking nuts... since I don't have the tools for Bristol I wont even look that direction! torx or allen would be my best option


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## tq60

Back in the day a company made an RC Heli called a Cricket.

Was not a great one but all hardware was metric.

Reason stated in the manual was that the threads were somewhat finer than that of SAE and with the Allen screws the strength was better and better choices of lengths. 

We have made a tool or 2 and found metric Allens seem to have better options as the commonly stocked choices usually are not good where the metric ones seem to be better.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## rambin

its an old American made lathe the threaded holes for the gibs are definatly not metric ;p


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## rambin

I had a better look there 1/4 28 as someone had mentioned above that they might be...  the McMaster carr link only goes up to 3/4 in length on those screws I would need a good inch or a touch more to have room for a lock nut... any other ideas?

today I got back to the half nuts I mentioned were slipping a week or so ago took them out and gave them a good cleaning... not the easiest to see by pictures but  there is prbly less then a 1/16th of thread in them... I imagine there original equipment..i seen them on the logan site and also some on ebay but not so sure about those ones..  also seen a guy make them on youtube but he had a mill and a lot more knowledge then I do..  heres the pics... what are my options?  oh and someone had asked a bit earlier if they close all the way as you can see in the first pic there not supposed to close all the way as they would be egg shaped there meant to stay open a good 1/8 to 1/4  just how they were designed..


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## CluelessNewB

So I went out and measured my set screws and they are 1/4-28 x 1".   McMaster Carr has some brass tipped that should work: 

https://www.mcmaster.com/#91381a359


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## rambin

CluelessNewB said:


> So I went out and measured my set screws and they are 1/4-28 x 1".   McMaster Carr has some brass tipped that should work:
> 
> https://www.mcmaster.com/#91381a359


thanks for going to the trouble...so with 1"screws you have enough extra room for a lock nut?  I wonder why they don't make them longer then 3/4 in the normal plain steel ones... I can see this lathe being an expensive project by the ttime  im finished


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## Silverbullet

If you need the belt laced  , I have to lacers in my shop and fair quantity of laces and pins . I can do up to 6" easily 10" with both set up. I'm offering the lacing free but a couple bucks for the metal laces . If you were close I'd say come on over and show you how .


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## CluelessNewB

rambin said:


> 1"screws you have enough extra room for a lock nut?


Yes at least on mine.   You can find longer set screws but not in dog point that I could find (well except Fastenal but they wanted over $2 each!)
Another option would be to either turn down the end of some standard set screws or drill out the end and insert some brass pins.


https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/24936


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## rambin

Silverbullet said:


> If you need the belt laced  , I have to lacers in my shop and fair quantity of laces and pins . I can do up to 6" easily 10" with both set up. I'm offering the lacing free but a couple bucks for the metal laces . If you were close I'd say come on over and show you how .[/QUOTE
> I really appreciate the offer but ive got one in the works already and I'm a long way from jersey!!!


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## rambin

CluelessNewB said:


> Yes at least on mine.   You can find longer set screws but not in dog point that I could find (well except Fastenal but they wanted over $2 each!)
> Another option would be to either turn down the end of some standard set screws or drill out the end and insert some brass pins.
> 
> 
> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/24936



Fastenal around here doesn't sell individual screws they make you buy the bag... I don't even know how they stay in business no private citizens have any use for the place....  I might try that 1" screw that u suggested earlier they were like 85 cents I think
and just get some thin lock nuts should work pretty good size wise..  now for those half nuts!!!


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## wa5cab

tq60 said:


> Reason stated in the manual was that the threads were somewhat finer than that of SAE and with the Allen screws the strength was better and better choices of lengths.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk



This is a little OT, but...  I can't comment on stockage or availability, but the other statement about finer threads being stronger than the same outside diameter coarser ones is obviously false.  Look at any thread dimension table from Whitworth through ISO Metric and you will see that as the pitch decreases for a constant thread size (nominal outside diameter), the minor diameter of the thread increases.  So in shear, the cross sectional area of metal in contact for one thread decreases as the thread gets finer.  If the major and minor diameters of the male and female threads were all the same (no clearance and no allowance), it would be an exact wash.  But since you have to have clearances in order not to be solid metal to metal (you couldn't turn it by hand) and allowances or you couldn't make it for less than megabucks, as the pitch goes down, the strength also goes down.  It isn't much, and is generally ignored in thread strength tables (except for make-up torque).  But it very obviously can't go up as claimed in that manual.


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## Scruffy

I woudn't worry about the brass tips. Find something that will work and make chips.
Thanks scruffy


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## rambin

yes brass tipped would be nice and all but this rig is 80yrs old and it made it this far without brass tips   I gotta get off my ass and just order some! and some half nuts ouch


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## rambin

wow still on the hunt for those gib screws ....nothing local and most of the online places that do have them are selling by the 100lot  which means high shipping and 93 bolts I will never use


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## Scruffy

Tell me what thread and length you need and I'll mail you some.
Scruffy


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## rambin

sent you a message scruffy


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## Scruffy

I think I have the gib screws covered, sent you a message. Now on to the half nuts. I wonder if their the same as a 820 ? If so I have 2 820's one with no wear that is apart. Haven't assembled it after bring it home from w.va. I'd like to try to make you them.
Thanks scruffy ron


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## Scruffy

I think I have ra's gibb screws covered.  Bought some 1/4 by 28 by 1-1/4 allen heads. I' m going to chuck them in a collet , get rid of allen head, cut to length, cut slot and taper other end. Using machinist handbook for slot width and taper.
   Total price for 8 screws and 7 jam nuts. 5.18. 
Thanks scruffy ron


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## rambin

Thanks scruffy I appreciate the offer but I've already sent my half nuts off to a guy that that rebuilds them. I found his posts on practical machinist when I did a Google search....he's quite a bit cheaper then the new ones from logan


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## Scruffy

Hope you still need the gibb screws?
Thanks scruffy ron


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## rambin

Yes I do..  thnks for going to all that trouble. I'm away from the puter trying to type on the phone kinda sucks


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## rambin

time for a little update I guess... well I popped out the spindle so I could put on a new belt when it arrives and cleaned up the bull gear and a few other parts...  the spindle bearing seems to be pressed to the spindle, I don't have a press so I was wondering if I should throw the whole deal in the solvent then regrease the bearing or just leave it as is with some new grease squeezed into it?  the outside bearing is still in the bore it looks to be a sealed unit so I figure theres no point removing it? didn't take any pics


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## Nogoingback

Some folks have had success washing the old grease out of the bearing and re-greasing.  You have nothing to lose by trying, and it might save you buying a bearing.  My experience with removing
the bearing was that it wasn't too difficult.  The "nut" that held mine on was made with a hook spanner in mind.  Logan suggested I get if off with a hammer and a punch.  I held it in a vice with
a chuck of thick leather wrapped around the spindle, heated it up, and tapped it off.  The bearing came off the spindle fairly easily.  I pressed the new one on with a home made press of pipe and
all thread.

My old bearing was an original New Departure bearing with a seal on one side and open on the other.   If yours is like that, you can hose it out with solvent.


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## rambin

the bearing has no issues at the moment seems to be in good shape that's why I was wondering if I should just leave it...or clean it and repack....any issue with cleaning and repacking while its still on the shaft?


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## wa5cab

I would clean and repack.  You'll never get a better chance.


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## rambin

ok I'm going to throw it in the degreaser bucket  and let it soak...shaft and all...managed to get the nut off  but its pressed on pretty good and I don't have a press at the moment...I'll just clean it while it's on the shaft...


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## rambin

a little update... cleaned those bearings and repacked with a grease needle as best I could get it in there... just got my half nuts back from rebuild there looking really good will try to install them today, new belt is on with the spindle back installed. doing a little painting on a few pieces that ive managed to blast the ugly green paint off of...also got my gib screws  back in thanks to wa5cab for helping me with that it will be a slow process..


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## RandyM

Doing things correctly is never a speedy process (at least for me). You'll be glad you did it right.


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## rambin

well its been awhile since I posted progress, busy with other things and slowly picking away on the lathe. took the tailstock off and gave it a douche in the super clean....(great stuff removes oil and paint!)   I  see that I need a  new tailstock lock handle and the stud underneath it as well as someone has killed it.... the quill moves fine and holds a #2 taper good but someone has done some hammering on it.... im wondering if I was to build up (tig)  the hammer marks and then machine it round again?  would that be something to think about?  the bolt that goes thru the bed has been messed with as well it seems, and the nut is a 3/4 thread but the outside dimensions have been wittled to a 5/8 sized nut (its aluminum)???    heres some pics. not sure if the big nut on the back 
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
, I tried it didn't move?
	

		
			
		

		
	






anyhow if anyones got any suggestions on that quill or knows of an available handle and stud bolt. that's where im at


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## Nogoingback

Have look at eBay for the handle.  The stud is available from Logan, though it's not cheap!


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## Silverbullet

You might be able to save the handle, cut off the threaded part and drill and tap it the size you need for the clamp piece. Use either all thread or a long enough threaded bolt and loctite or pin it in the handle . You can do it.


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## rambin

Nogoingback said:


> Have look at eBay for the handle.  The stud is available from Logan, though it's not cheap!


I bought the parts manual document from logan as I couldn't find it elsewhere, they got me good for that, I don't like being gouged so they will be the last option....


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## rambin

Silverbullet said:


> You might be able to save the handle, cut off the threaded part and drill and tap it the size you need for the clamp piece. Use either all thread or a long enough threaded bolt and loctite or pin it in the handle . You can do it.


its been brazed in and ground up apparently would be next to impossible to get it mounted in a vice to drill out and have a straight hole.  for some reason it was made by logan to be 2 separate pieces  a handle and a stud.


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## Nogoingback

rambin said:


> I bought the parts manual document from logan as I couldn't find it elsewhere, they got me good for that, I don't like being gouged so they will be the last option....



Yes, parts from Logan can be expensive.  I recently went through my Logan and bought a number of parts from them.  But, supplying parts
for 75 year old machine tools in very small quantities probably doesn't result in huge profits. If you really need something and eBay 
doesn't have it, at least they're available, and  Scott Logan also provides quite a bit of free advice as well.  At a time when some manufacturers
stop supplying parts after 10 years, or don't offer repair parts at all,  the fact that they still exist at all is great.


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## rambin

Nogoingback said:


> Yes, parts from Logan can be expensive.  I recently went through my Logan and bought a number of parts from them.  But, supplying parts
> for 75 year old machine tools in very small quantities probably doesn't result in huge profits. If you really need something and eBay
> doesn't have it, at least they're available, and  Scott Logan also provides quite a bit of free advice as well.  At a time when some manufacturers
> stop supplying parts after 10 years, or don't offer repair parts at all,  the fact that they still exist at all is great.



some of the prices on ebay for this stuff should be a crime as well, but I guess when you have the rare pieces that people want u can get away with that...  seems people on ebay are buying whole lathes and dissecting them for parts and selling part by part?  what a waste


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## Nogoingback

rambin said:


> some of the prices on ebay for this stuff should be a crime as well, but I guess when you have the rare pieces that people want u can get away with that...  seems people on ebay are buying whole lathes and dissecting them for parts and selling part by part?  what a waste



I think you have it right: people part them out.


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## wa5cab

On the other hand, if someone wasn't parting out used equipment, there would be no used parts available.  As for prices, it's the same with new Atlas parts.  But you have to keep in mind that whomever is making the parts has to charge current day prices for them or they would lose money on every part they sold.  It's no longer 1940 or 1950.


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## Nogoingback

As old as some of these machines are, it often isn't economic to repair them or put them back into service.  When that's the case, I think it makes
sense to part them out.  I would hate to see a useful or running machine parted out.


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## rambin

Nogoingback said:


> As old as some of these machines are, it often isn't economic to repair them or put them back into service.  When that's the case, I think it makes
> sense to part them out.  I would hate to see a useful or running machine parted out.


maybe we just don't know what is wrong...I see complete machines sold in pieces on ebay and am not seeing a bad piece on it...  and I know its done with everything even refrigerators to make parts available....just seems sad to divide up this old iron.

anyhow was more so looking for some parts and some advice on how I can fix up my lathe then a rant on parting out


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## rambin

well the tailstock is painted and back together using the parts I had for now... it works fine most of the issues are cosmetic. and I will deal with them in the long run.  a new day is a new issue though im finding my head stock pulley is spinning on the spindle and it doesn't matter how tight I put that set screw  (part 193 in the pic) I cant get it to stop spinning when under load.   hoping someone can give me a pic of the proper set screw? im thinking the one pictured  is probly wrong?  I don't remember there being a detent in the spindle for a screw to grab? but its been awhile since I had it out.


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## wa5cab

I'm not that familiar with Logans but if you had an Atlas I'd say that you are about to severely hurt something.  Judging from the section view drawing that you attached, my guess is that you have the direct drive pin (245) pulled out (disengaged).  If I'm not misreading the drawing, you pull that pin out prior to engaging Back Gear, because the pulley must turn much faster than the bull gear with the back gears engaged.  In direct drive the pulley and bull gear turn at the same speed, with the pin engaged and the back gears disengaged.  With both engaged, of course the spindle is locked.


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## Mr Mike

Call and ask Logan...


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## wa5cab

OK.  Then it's the same as on the Atlas machines.

Rambin, that's your problem.  Push the direct drive pin in (you have to rotate the pulley to align the hole or holes in the pulley with the pin in the bull gear).


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## rambin

I know about the pin on the bull gear and when I pull it out to release the bull gear from the cone pulley is when im having this issue...  if you look at the picture the set screw is there to hold the cone pulley on the spindle....its not holding soon as I load the assembly (a tool bit touching workpiece) the spindle slips from the pulley...   im sure this set screw is there to lock the cone pulley to the spindle. there is another set screw on the next bigger pulley step to add lubrication but this one is there to lock it..check out the parts diagram ive posted


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## Asm109

You have to engage the back gears with the pin pulled out. In back gear the power flow goes like this:

Belt pulley to small gear at back end of belt pulleys
Small gear to Large gear on back gear shaft.
Small gear on back gear shaft to Bull gear.
Bull gear to spindle through key.

In High gear the power flow is:

Belt pulley through slideable pin to Bull gear
Bull gear to spindle through key.


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## rambin

your right... I was looking at it totally wrong...I think im ok now.... thought I was going to have too pull that spindle out again.. wasn't a fun project last time!  I do have to do it eventually so I can paint the gearbox but hopin to hold off till spring


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## wa5cab

Again, when you pull out the direct drive pin, the pulley MUST rotate freely.  You then engage the back gears.  That is its function.

I've no real idea what the purpose of the screw in the smaller pulley is but locking the pulley to the spindle is definitely not one of them.


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## rambin

ya I  got it now just got a lil confusered there for a bit....


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## rambin

wondering if I could get someone with the same lathe to take that set screw out of the headstock pulley (shown in pics above) and take a picture of it...my pulley has a little bit of side to side play which makes a noise when the lathe is running...  thinking if that screw touched the spindle as it should that wouldn't happen.... thinking someone has put the wrong screw in there at somepoint.  I can move the pulley side to side by hand...took a video of it but not sure I can post videos on here?...few seconds of video is like 60mb so im sure that wont work


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## wa5cab

No.  I am afraid that you are still confused.  End float of the pulley should be .003 to .005, adjusted by loosening the set screw in the bull gear and moving the bull gear.  If the second screw in the pulley were touching the spindle, you would ruin the spindle, break teeth off of the back gears. stall the motor, or any combination of those the first time that you engaged back gears.  The pulley MUST be free to spin on the spindle when you pull out the direct drive pin.


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## rambin

yes you are right I undid the set screw in the bull gear slid it sideways prbly 3/16 tight as I could get it too the pullery and reset the set screw... theres still a bit of movement side to side in the pully but that's the best I could get...


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## wa5cab

The pulley does have to have running clearance between it and the bull gear, because it spins at about 6X the RPM of the spindle when in back gear.

3/16" sure sounds like a lot of clearance.  Unless someone misadjusted it.  When you engage the back gears, how well does the bull gear match up to the small back gear?


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## rambin

I moved the bull gear reset the screw think were all good now..  there is still a little bit of clearance. seems to be running ok


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## wa5cab

OK.


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## rambin

well its a lil over a year from bringing this anchor home, Ive spent plenty of time taking it a part painting it and putting it back together, changed a few parts, half nuts, cross slide bolt and nut way adjustment nuts and screws, a new rubber drive belt and put a bigger motor on it.. figured id post some pics of where its at now, that ugly green paint is gone! I only rattlecanned the paint back on not like some of that nice epoxy work you guys do..  still wanting a 3 jaw...  heres the latest pics...  2nd pic is of a marking I found on it well I was painting not sure what it Is?
	

		
			
		

		
	




and as you can see I did a little bit of work on the table that came with it as well... its still ugly but paint and drawers can only cure so much


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## rambin

so does anyone have any idea on that cf stamp might be all about? that was just the primer coat on in that pic,


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## dlane

The set screws in the cone pulley should be for lube, on my SB 10L that’s what there for, they are just plugs .


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## CluelessNewB

I suspect the CF is just a foundry identification mark.


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## rambin

ahh ok I  had never seen anyone mention it here on the forum so I was curious


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