# Used Albrecht chuck - when to give up



## jwmelvin (Jan 5, 2022)

A while back, I bought a used Albrecht 130 chuck, $75. It was smooth and cleaned up fine but the jaws were chewed up, leading to obvious alignment issues. Here's a picture of the jaws:



So after letting it sit for a while and looking for a set of jaws, I finally decided to buy some from McMaster, $140. I'm feeling pretty good about it and posted my new purchase after using the chuck and feeling pretty good about it. Then I measured...

I held a dowel pin in the jaws and see about 0.007" TIR. Ugh. I tried a couple dowel pins, 3/16" and 1/2" diameter. Both give about the same results. I even checked with a couple different indicators




I measured about 0.002" TIR at the back of the shell (just below the upper knurled collar in the picture). That suggests that the arbor itself is probably okay, and I measured the arbor when I initially disassembled the chuck and remember it being very good.

So now I'm questioning what to do. I see a few options:

(1) Call it good enough and just drill holes. I don't view a drill as a precision instrument and the chuck is smooth and grabs well. But it's pretty disappointing.

(2) Send to Royal, the main distributor, for rebuild or replacement; limited to $385 for a new chuck, if refurbishing this one would be more expensive than that or would not give good results. Given that I just spent $140 on jaws and don't imagine I can return them now, I obviously wish I just sent it to them in the first place. It may be the only way to get an in-spec chuck out of this. I do have another Albrecht that I could put the jaws in I guess.

(3) Disassemble again and try to figure out which additional parts need replacing. I can replace a few parts for less than sending it to Royal, but not all of them (available from Royal or McMaster). I'm not experienced enough to know what is likely the issue, but I can measure to investigate. Here's the assembly drawing:






I appreciate hearing about any experiences you may have with these or guidance how to avoid wasting more money.

-jason


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## Cadillac (Jan 5, 2022)

How does the inside of the hood look like. That’s what’s controlling the jaws. You said that the body is giving you .002 runout I would think that should be at a minimum. .002 runout on body makes me think at least .004 on the jaws. I’d try taking it apart again and look for the cause. Mount in spindle and take reading with chuck disassembled and start adding parts. How were the balls? worn at all???


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## mmcmdl (Jan 5, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> I see a few options:


# 4 . Next time in Fallston , pick one out of my tote . You saw how many I have .   Or , # 1 . Drill chuck is not considered a precision tool , and you already posted it completed your job on the other thread .


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## Shootymacshootface (Jan 5, 2022)

You could try putting the jaws in different positions and retest. Just keep track of everything as you go.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 5, 2022)

Cadillac said:


> How does the inside of the hood look like. … Mount in spindle and take reading with chuck disassembled and start adding parts. How were the balls? worn at all???



I could see where the jaws meet with the hood ID, in that the hood shows some wear. Perhaps that’s the next part to replace. I didn’t measure the balls but they looked fine. 

I will try measuring during selective assembly. 




Shootymacshootface said:


> You could try putting the jaws in different positions and retest. Just keep track of everything as you go.



I may try that too. Since the jaws are new, it shouldn’t matter, at least not to the extent that I’m seeing. 



mmcmdl said:


> # 4 . Next time in Fallston , pick one out of my tote . You saw how many I have .



If you can identify one that meets a certain TIR, perhaps. Otherwise I’d be going down another road of unknown destination. I think I may have learned a lesson about buying used tooling.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 5, 2022)

R8 or straight shank ? 3/8 , 1/2 or 5/8 capacity ?


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## Shootymacshootface (Jan 5, 2022)

I will measure the runout in mine tonight and report it here. Use a carbide endmill if you have one. The shanks are held to incredible tolerances.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 5, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> R8 or straight shank ? 3/8 , 1/2 or 5/8 capacity ?



I’m using a 1/2” capacity with JT2 mounting straight shank.


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## JRaut (Jan 5, 2022)

Could be runout in your collet then.

Try lowering the chuck down in your collet and measuring runout of the straight shank right where it enters the collet.

.... unless that's how you measured 0.002" runout of the body ....

I've got several of those same Albrecht chucks. I've never bothered to measure runout, but it's never been problematic for me. I'll measure a couple of them tonight and report back if I remember.


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## Winegrower (Jan 5, 2022)

I just went through this, and after assembly my Albrecht chuck showed .007 tir.   Disappointed, I separated the taper and rotated the chuck 180 degrees, remounted and remeasured at .003.   So I put it into service.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 5, 2022)

.004 runout on the arbor ? That's hard to believe .


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## jwmelvin (Jan 5, 2022)

Cadillac said:


> How does the inside of the hood look like.





Hard to get a picture to reflect what is seen, but that’s it. I don’t feel anything but can see the burnished/worn area for each jaw. 



JRaut said:


> Could be runout in your collet then.
> 
> Try lowering the chuck down in your collet and measuring runout of the straight shank right where it enters the collet.


Doing so gives about .002”, so that’s a good point about where some of the TIR comes from. I also mounted just the body and measure about the same on that:



While I could try a hood, I’m tempted to send it all to Royal and see what they say. Or do nothing and just use it.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 5, 2022)

JRaut said:


> Could be runout in your collet then.


Well, I figured I would try a different collet, so in doing so I measured the spindle R8 taper. At close to 0.002" TIR. That's sad.



Shootymacshootface said:


> Use a carbide endmill if you have one. The shanks are held to incredible tolerances.


Trying a different 3/4" collet ended up with 0.001" TIR on a carbide end mill (I guess that collet canceled out some of the spindle error?).

I'm not sure where this leaves me other than to say that my $1k cloneport isn't great and my $75 Albrecht isn't great. I'd still like to think the drill chuck doesn't add 0.004-.005" TIR (they are specified at 0.0015" TIR max) but I question the wisdom of seeking much improvement.

I will say that my PM-branded keyless chuck (not their Ultra Precision model, the High Precision model) is completely terrible. It does not stay tight at all. I have an Enco-branded keyless chuck that is quite nice to use; I'd have to check it for TIR if I'm going to really be upset about this Albrecht. And I have some Jacobs chucks that work well but got hooked on the keyless.


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## mikey (Jan 5, 2022)

Jason, you have so many interfaces that it's hard to tell what is contributing to the run out. From long experience, I can tell you that you have to make a clear diagnosis before doing anything else or spending more money.

First thing to know is what is your spindle run out?
You are using R8 collets. Are they quality collets or typical asian imports? Good collets (Crawford, Royal, Lyndex, Hardinge) have pretty low run out numbers; imports ... not so much. Collets can definitely be a source of run out.
Check your arbor. Most good arbors (Albrecht, Jacobs made in the UK, Rohm) have little to no run out but you need to check it directly in a V-block to be sure. Related to this is how the arbor is installed - do it wrong and the run out increases.
Check the chuck's female taper socket for burrs and debris and oil. It has to be totally free of all of this stuff.
Those ruined chuck jaws in the first pic suggest a drill spun in the chuck. Oil in the screw will do that. So will a crap drill because the jaws can't grab it.
The hood shouldn't have those three shiny spots. Take some 400 grit sandpaper and take the shine off of them. This will give the jaws a more accurate bite on a drill shank.
Check the jaw slots where the base of the jaws sit. I've seen one chuck where there was a lot of wear and that chuck was toast.
An Albrecht chuck should have less than 0.002" TIR but this requires that everything else in the chain is right. Gotta sort out the chain and get it all right before attributing the issue to the chuck.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 5, 2022)

mikey said:


> First thing to know is what is your spindle run out?



Spindle: 0.0015-.002” TIR



mikey said:


> You are using R8 collets. Are they quality collets or typical asian imports? Good collets (Crawford, Royal, Lyndex, Hardinge) have pretty low run out numbers; imports ... not so much. Collets can definitely be a source of run out.



Carbide end mill in 3/4” collet: 0.001-.002” TIR depending on collet. Not high quality ones but tried the two I have.

That’s consistent with the 0.002” TIR on the chuck body.



mikey said:


> Check your arbor. … you need to check it directly in a V-block to be sure.



I think I checked the arbor when I first disassembled the chuck and it showed nearly no measurable runout.



mikey said:


> Check the chuck's female taper socket for burrs and debris and oil. It has to be totally free of all of this stuff.



I remember being picky about this when I did it but I will take them apart and redo at some point.



mikey said:


> The hood shouldn't have those three shiny spots. Take some 400 grit sandpaper and take the shine off of them. This will give the jaws a more accurate bite on a drill shank.



I agree. I think that the hood shows some wear and that directly affects the jaw positions. I’d like to make a thin shim for the hood, so that it tightens into a different alignment with the jaws. I calculate 0.0066” would cause 60° offset, so the 0.007” brass shim stock should work well. It’ll be interesting to try at least.

I have no issue with resurfacing the existing mating locations, but that won’t address any hood wear. I’d like to understand how you connect hood surface finish with accuracy. 



mikey said:


> Check the jaw slots where the base of the jaws sit. I've seen one chuck where there was a lot of wear and that chuck was toast.



They look pretty good to me:


See also:











I figured seeing some pictures helps get a feel for what I’m working with. I’ll report as I have a chance to keep trying some things.


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## Cadillac (Jan 5, 2022)

The hood is what pushes/directs the jaws closed. The spindle body keeps them aligned and straight while going in/out. The screw pushes them in/out. 
 Me thinking here the amount of play between the jaws and the spindle body That’s one area. 
 The screw if someone was drilling with large diameter bits and had the chuck tighten the screw notches could be spread from the jaws rolling. 
 The hood same deal if someone locked it up drilling big diameter bits and used something to wrench down on the hood to release the chuck the hood could be ovaled. 
 Just some stuff to think about where to look.


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## mikey (Jan 6, 2022)

With 0.0015 to 0.002" TIR, the best you'll get at the chuck will be that; it will likely be worse due to stacking tolerances. Have you considered refurbishinhg your spindle assembly? Spindle run out should be in the neighborhood of 0.0002" or less.

The shine inside the hood is simply due to wear and it allows the jaws to slip and slide as they tighten. When this happens, the jaws don't tighten equally around the bit so run out increases at the bit. Albrecht recommends you take off the shine to reduce this slippage.

There is grease on your leadscrew. That's no good and will cause the chuck to not grip well. The screw has to be totally free of any oil or grease to function properly.

I agree that the body/jaw guides look fine, as do your new jaws. 

The only other thing I can think of is that the arbor may or may not be installed accurately. If you can get it out, try cleaning it and the female socket with lacquer thinner and then do not touch the mating surfaces with anything other than a lint free cloth. Insert the male taper into the female socket with a gentle twisting motion and no downforce until it contacts and locks. The cover the end of the arbor with a piece of wood and give it a firm tap with a steel hammer. This will seat the arbor in the most accurate way and it will not come out until you want it to.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 6, 2022)

mikey said:


> Have you considered refurbishinhg your spindle assembly?



I am considering it now  I’ll put it on the list; if all I need to do is install new bearings, that seems pretty easy. If I need to grind the spindle, that seems harder. 



mikey said:


> The shine inside the hood is simply due to wear and it allows the jaws to slip and slide as they tighten. When this happens, the jaws don't tighten equally around the bit so run out increases at the bit.



That makes sense. I’ll try both removing the shine and the shim I am contemplating. Will report when possible. 



mikey said:


> There is grease on your leadscrew.



I thought I had cleaned it off but will do a better job of that. 



mikey said:


> The only other thing I can think of is that the arbor may or may not be installed accurately.



I’ll take it apart and redo it soon. 

Thanks everyone, I quite appreciate the suggestions.


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## mikey (Jan 6, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> I am considering it now  I’ll put it on the list; if all I need to do is install new bearings, that seems pretty easy. If I need to grind the spindle, that seems harder.



What kind of mill do you have?

Unless the spindle taper is really worn or out of round, sending it out for a re-grind or replacing it shouldn't be necessary.

I am wondering if the excessive run out of the spindle might not be due to inadequate spindle bearing preload. If the bearings are in good shape and have been lubed properly (cleaned and packed to 25-30% capacity) and then run it properly then getting the preload adjusted might improve things. If preload is good and the spindle taper is good but the run out is that bad then the bearings will need to be replaced. 

Depending on the quality of the mill and spindle, it might be a good idea to step up to an ABEC-rated bearing. I have FAG P5/ABEC5 Angular Contact bearings in my plain vanilla RF-31 spindle and it holds just under 0.0001" TIR. With a Keo Woodruff keyseat cutter in an ETM collet on this mill, TIR is under 0.0002" max so I'm pretty satisfied with this level of bearing accuracy. Anyway, just something to consider.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 6, 2022)

mikey said:


> What kind of mill do you have?



It’s a Bridgeport clone, made in Taiwan (She Hong Industrial), 1980. The head is a copy of the BP J head (step pulley). The current bearings are open, oil lubricated. I understand typical replacements use grease. 

I believe bearing preload is set by a spacer but could be wrong about that. 

I wasn’t able to pull the spindle when I cleaned up the machine, as the ball trip lever is stuck. I have a carbide burr to obliterate that and allow spindle removal, but it’s not something I’ve been rushing to do. 

I agree with you that it seems to be necessary, as 0.0015-.002” is not very good.


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## mikey (Jan 6, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> I agree with you that it seems to be necessary, as 0.0015-.002” is not very good.



I am reminded of a white paper by Techniks that stated the fact that tool wear increases 10% for every 0.0001" of run out in a spindle. A spindle with 0.002" TIR is going to wear tools at an alarming rate, not to mention the potential for inaccuracy and poor finishes. 

It would seem that getting those bearings sorted might be important.


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## JRaut (Jan 6, 2022)

mikey said:


> I am reminded of a white paper by Techniks that stated the fact that tool wear increases 10% for every 0.0001" of run out in a spindle. A spindle with 0.002" TIR is going to wear tools at an alarming rate, not to mention the potential for inaccuracy and poor finishes.



But that's if you're running endmills and the like, no?

The wear on a drill bit has got to be a tiny, tiny fraction of that, I'd think.

I'm not sure what the answer here is. But several thou runout on a drill chuck: while not ideal, seems to me it'll be plenty good enough for the vast, vast majority of applications. Exceptions to that being really tiny drill bits (though you'd probably switch to a smaller drill chuck at that point).

So if it were me, I think I'd be mildly disappointed, but I'd run it anyway and move on to the next project on my list.


EDIT: I realize now you're talking about the 0.002" runout of the spindle, not runout in the drill chuck. Your point is a good one when it comes to milling cutters.


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## Winegrower (Jan 6, 2022)

I would check spindle runout with a 0.0001 DTI on the inside surface of the spindle, no collet installed.


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## cathead (Jan 6, 2022)

I have several in my scrap box that are 0 to 10MM and the jaws are bad on both.  Other than that, they look OK.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 6, 2022)

I made a spacer so the hood would tighten to a different position relative to the shell, meaning a new portion of the hood’s inner surface bears against each jaw. 




And measured 0.0005” TIR on a 1/4” carbide end mill:



Obviously I got lucky with the tolerance stackup and canceled some of my spindle runout, but the issue with the chuck is resolved. I made no other change to it, so I could be sure about the effect. I’m pleased.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 6, 2022)

Good fix Jason .   Keep us posted as to runout staying put .


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## jwmelvin (Jan 6, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> I would check spindle runout with a 0.0001 DTI on the inside surface of the spindle, no collet installed.


That is how I did it, unfortunately. I believe there is some play when I manipulate a tool in the spindle, in the neighborhood of .001-.002”, so it is possible that tightening the top nut could make a significant difference.


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## mikey (Jan 6, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> I made a spacer so the hood would tighten to a different position relative to the shell, meaning a new portion of the hood’s inner surface bears against each jaw. And measured 0.0005” TIR on a 1/4” carbide end mill. Obviously I got lucky with the tolerance stackup and canceled some of my spindle runout, but the issue with the chuck is resolved. I made no other change to it, so I could be sure about the effect. I’m pleased.



I can see how a shim might shift the location of the contact points between the jaw and hood but not sure how this changes the run out unless those shiny spots were the specific cause of 0.002" TIR. Well, regardless, half a thou is pretty good.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 6, 2022)

mikey said:


> I can see how a shim might shift the location of the contact points between the jaw and hood but not sure how this changes the run out unless those shiny spots were the specific cause of 0.002" TIR. Well, regardless, half a thou is pretty good.





mmcmdl said:


> Good fix Jason .  Keep us posted as to runout staying put .



I suspect the shiny spots are areas of some wear, and are nonuniform along the length of jaw engagement, so they let the jaws bell mouth a little. That’s my guess but little more. It really seems like the hood’s inner contact areas were the cause. 

With a 3/16” end mill, I see 0.0015” TIR, and about the same on a 1/2” end mill. 

Making the spacers was super fun.


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## WobblyHand (Jan 6, 2022)

jwmelvin said:


> I suspect the shiny spots are areas of some wear, and are nonuniform along the length of jaw engagement, so they let the jaws bell mouth a little. That’s my guess but little more. It really seems like the hood’s inner contact areas were the cause.
> 
> With a 3/16” end mill, I see 0.0015” TIR, and about the same on a 1/2” end mill.
> 
> Making the spacers was super fun.


How did you make the spacers?


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## jwmelvin (Jan 6, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> How did you make the spacers?



I should have shared in the first place but it was dinner time around here.

I clamped down squares of brass shim sandwiched between some 1/4” aluminum, drilled and bored a hole in the stack, then moved to the lathe where I turned a quick arbor with a shoulder so the arbor was shorter than the stack, then pressed it together with the tailstock while I turned the OD (using a parting tool because the tailstock pressure pad was too large). Inspired by one of Joe Pie’s videos I remember seeing.








Maybe I should have made more than two, or thought about a reusable jig; at least the arbor is.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 6, 2022)

Nice Skoda


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## jwmelvin (Jan 18, 2022)

Little update on this chuck - while runout is improved, the added space from my shim is no good. The chuck slips more readily than it should and there is a looseness that is not normal. I think what I've done is shown that my chuck needs a new hood, not that I can fix it with a brass shim. 

My other Albrecht (on the lathe) is so good that I still want to get this one back to good condition.


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## Winegrower (Jan 18, 2022)

An Albrecht chuck I have was unusable because it would not tighten...it immediately twisted backward as soon as tightening pressure was released. Somewhere I saw some comments that grease on the ball bearings could cause this, so I took it all apart, polished the interior of the hood, cleaned everything and reassembled with just spindle oil.   The thing is now night and day, you can almost literally spin it and it coasts a bit.   It locks extremely well and does not seem to over-tighten, so here's a data point.    It makes me realize why people like these chucks so much.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 18, 2022)

Yes they are great when they are right. I can try resurfacing the hood but I’m pretty convinced wear is the issue with mine. 

I was careful to avoid lube on the screw, which is what Albrecht says. I lightly greased the balls and the jaw-jawguide interface.


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## mikey (Jan 18, 2022)

I have serviced a lot of chucks and I have never seen the hood cause a problem before so this is interesting. The wear lines shown in the picture of the hood in post 12 are simply friction wear marks, not divots, right? If this is so then the hood should not be causing a problem. All the hood does is constrain the jaws so that they close evenly on the bit; it should not influence run out. 

Now, if the body and jaw guides are good and the leadscrew is okay and the jaws are new and the hood has had its inner surface cleaned up with Scotchbrite then the chuck should function just fine, assuming grease goes only where it should go. If you then install a good arbor properly then run out should be pretty close to 0.002" or less.


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