# I think most machinist want a cnc but for good reason and myth they are scared



## jumps4

these are my reasons and my opinion
I was scared i was going to waste money i really didnt have on a machine that would be below standard and to complicated to learn.
so i started researching and found these problems for home cnc
1. there is no standard for the terms used by the manufactures of parts, the writers of software and just about every aspect of the building of your own cnc. I'm a auto mechanic and could not imagine a spark plug being called something else because another company made it. so for me to read most any literature on cnc i needed a list of terms and definitions to figure out each sentence. and that list is for just that manufacture. thats a lot of lists
2. ok it's killing our economy but without the chinese only the fortune 500 companies can do this and that brings us to translation. this guy in china reads chinese well but does not understand how the sentence translates into a readable english or any language for that matter to form a sentence so lets just pic an english word and put it down. no matter how you read it "cintered canine and crushed paste of yellow zest" is not a "hotdog with mustard"
3. wiring. just about anyone mechanical can modify the machine and do a good job , make it accurate with low cost ballscrews because cnc compensates for backlash automaticly when set up properly. the fact is wiring a cnc is as easy as playing with batterys , lightbulbs and switches like you probably did as a kid. here is the catch anyone can connect wire a to terminal b as per the instructions. nope the breakout board instructions say connect a wire from step+ on the breakout board to step+ on the motor controller. what is the controller i have a driver and it does not have the word step on it anywhere. it says pulse. your thinking magic smoke. the fact is the driver is the controller and step and pulse mean the same thing. so wiring now is a nightmare for the same reason as item 1. terms and standards. 
4 learning the cad and cam programs and their cost. you are not nasa you need a cad software that draws circles squares rectangles ect where you want, then the size you want them, and saves in a dxf format. thats free online everywhere i use emachine shop it is so simple you draw the box and up at the top you say the box is here in x and y and it is this high and that wide thats it. drop a circle on the end delete the unneeded lines an you have a bullet. cam software same thing you want simple and low to no cost. are you really needing a software that cuts 5 axis in full blown 3d i cant even think 5 axis yet.
i have a bunch of free programs all limited but when you have them all you can do almost everything.
unless you want to just make scrap you wont write complete programs to finish a complex part in unending steps you very quickly pick the cut from the drawing and tell it the cutter size left right or on center, depth per pass and total depth. run it. thats good pick the next pocket corner and
continue. It is faster than reading prints mounting rotory tables and turning cranks and it dont get tired. It's working, your on the lathe making something else.
just my opinion and i guess you can tell i like cnc or anything i can make behave with my pc
if i could just mount steppers on my wife what a life this would be.
What Do You Think
steve


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## brt

I'm with you on most of this. I couldn't build a CNC mill, so I bought one. But now with the mill, I can CNC-fy the lathe, so I got a manual one.
Re: software: i tried simple (GoogSketch, Rhino, a few Open Source tools). But they were just too limiting. It ended up between SolidWorks and Pro-E. I went with SW because of the $100/yr student license. Now trying to tackle the CAM part of the equation.


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## jfcayron

Aside from all the very good and valid reasons given here, my point of view is I want to learn how to do it by hand before I try to automate.
In other words I want to "feel" what my CNC program will be doing.

My full time job (that severely gets in the way of machining :lmao is in computer software. And believe it or not, there is a similar approach to be given to beginners. 
There are too many things you can let be generated for you and that will lead to inefficiency or worse.

But I totally agree that CNC is great for a lot of things and especially for short production runs. I will get there someday, just not yet.


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## woodguy

I didn't start out wanting CNC on my mill. What I wanted was a nice DRO and power feeds on all axes. I got the DRO and it was a game changer. When I started looking into power feeds I realized that I could CNC the Mill and use it in either manual mode or CNC mode and the cost would not be much more than ordinary power feeds.

CNC is a lot of fun and opens up so many possibilities. Now I guess I'll sell the DRO - at the moment I still have it mounted on the mill - it was handy for calibrating the steppers.


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## jumps4

" When I started looking into power feeds I realized that I could CNC the Mill and use it in either manual mode or CNC mode and the cost would not be much more than ordinary power feeds."

thank you there is a really good savings point i forgot. the tooling required to just do the simple things cnc does.
think about having to machine a hole, 3.25 " in diameter, in the center of a 14" long 10" wide piece then thread the hole. then thread a cap for the hole. i can do it with a cnc mill with little to no thought or setup
may take a while on a small machine but it will get done. thats going to be hard with my hand crank mill and 9" lathe.
steve


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## SamIAm

jumps4 said:


> if i could just mount steppers on my wife what a life this would be.
> What Do You Think
> steve



Love this one...  think it would end up being disastrous! but still I like the idea.

Funny thing. Im no machinist. but my first machine other than a drill press etc... was a cnc'd mini mill
then the lathe. 

I had no idea how to do anything. looking back I should have start with a lathe. imho. but it is what it is.
now I spend my time machining stuff up on the lathe. when I need something more complex then I move to the cnc mill.

As far as the code. I find it pretty easy (Im a pc person and coding comes easy to me). The software is pretty challenging though
because every vendor has their way of looking at a solution to a problem. I have found c4mb4m to be pretty good for the $
in apt of aspects. easy to use, offers importing options. easily customizable etc...

2cents.
Sam


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## clearcaseman

Agreed with #4 being the big one. I have a cnc router and I am not able to use it to anywhere near its full potential. I learned cad on a program called casemate which it 2.5 axis. then took time to learn sketchup only to find out it doesn't use anything standard in its own formatting. I liken 3d multi axis to a conversation  Spock had with Kirk in Wrath of Kahn about space combat and Kahn being at a disadvantage since he thought laterally and in the future they were taught space combat in all 3 axis.




jumps4 said:


> these are my reasons and my opinion
> I was scared i was going to waste money i really didnt have on a machine that would be below standard and to complicated to learn.
> so i started researching and found these problems for home cnc
> 1. there is no standard for the terms used by the manufactures of parts, the writers of software and just about every aspect of the building of your own cnc. I'm a auto mechanic and could not imagine a spark plug being called something else because another company made it. so for me to read most any literature on cnc i needed a list of terms and definitions to figure out each sentence. and that list is for just that manufacture. thats a lot of lists
> 2. ok it's killing our economy but without the chinese only the fortune 500 companies can do this and that brings us to translation. this guy in china reads chinese well but does not understand how the sentence translates into a readable english or any language for that matter to form a sentence so lets just pic an english word and put it down. no matter how you read it "cintered canine and crushed paste of yellow zest" is not a "hotdog with mustard"
> 3. wiring. just about anyone mechanical can modify the machine and do a good job , make it accurate with low cost ballscrews because cnc compensates for backlash automaticly when set up properly. the fact is wiring a cnc is as easy as playing with batterys , lightbulbs and switches like you probably did as a kid. here is the catch anyone can connect wire a to terminal b as per the instructions. nope the breakout board instructions say connect a wire from step+ on the breakout board to step+ on the motor controller. what is the controller i have a driver and it does not have the word step on it anywhere. it says pulse. your thinking magic smoke. the fact is the driver is the controller and step and pulse mean the same thing. so wiring now is a nightmare for the same reason as item 1. terms and standards.
> 4 learning the cad and cam programs and their cost. you are not nasa you need a cad software that draws circles squares rectangles ect where you want, then the size you want them, and saves in a dxf format. thats free online everywhere i use emachine shop it is so simple you draw the box and up at the top you say the box is here in x and y and it is this high and that wide thats it. drop a circle on the end delete the unneeded lines an you have a bullet. cam software same thing you want simple and low to no cost. are you really needing a software that cuts 5 axis in full blown 3d i cant even think 5 axis yet.
> i have a bunch of free programs all limited but when you have them all you can do almost everything.
> unless you want to just make scrap you wont write complete programs to finish a complex part in unending steps you very quickly pick the cut from the drawing and tell it the cutter size left right or on center, depth per pass and total depth. run it. thats good pick the next pocket corner and
> continue. It is faster than reading prints mounting rotory tables and turning cranks and it dont get tired. It's working, your on the lathe making something else.
> just my opinion and i guess you can tell i like cnc or anything i can make behave with my pc
> if i could just mount steppers on my wife what a life this would be.
> What Do You Think
> steve


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## DaveSohlstrom

I too thought CNC would be to difficult to learn. When the guys at SeemeCNC.com introduced there low cost 3D printer I bought one. Once I had it in the shop and started working with it I could see that CNC was not as difficult as I had thought it was. I now have it converted to a mini CNC router and doing a lot of work with it. I am also working on a design for a much larger CNC router that will clear a 18X24" table area. 3D printer will only do 8X8"

Dave


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## xalky

Cost is/was mainly the issue for me. Technical issues usually don't scare me away....but maybe they should. ;-)  I got into building my cnc plasma cutter knowing the mechanical end of it was gonna be a cinch for me, but I really had no idea how tedious the software end of it was gonna be for me. I have a lot of respect for the people that design the software to run these things.  The mechanical aspect is really childs play next to the software in my mind, but maybe that's because I have all this mechanical ability and really no software knowledge to speak of.

Marcel


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## JPigg55

xalky said:


> Cost is/was mainly the issue for me. Technical issues usually don't scare me away....but maybe they should. ;-)  I got into building my cnc plasma cutter knowing the mechanical end of it was gonna be a cinch for me, but I really had no idea how tedious the software end of it was gonna be for me. I have a lot of respect for the people that design the software to run these things.  The mechanical aspect is really childs play next to the software in my mind, but maybe that's because I have all this mechanical ability and really no software knowledge to speak of.
> 
> Marcel



Same thing goes for me.
Growing up on a small farm working on equipment, the mechanical stuff comes easy. Also, as pointed out in an earlier post, most mechanical parts are based on a standard of some sorts.
Even electrical isn't too much of a pain since everything is pretty much standardized, but roll into the world of electronics......nothing seems to be standardized.
Yes, at its root everything boils down to 1's & 0's, but what makes up the 1's & 0's is different with almost every program out there. Seems everything in the programming work is a never ending VHS vs Betamax battle. Learn this method, but it won't translate to this other one (which is the new standard for now until something newer comes along) so one is forced to relearn.
I'd love to learn CAD & CAM for the possibility of going CNC later on, but I'm 50 years old and didn't grow up with computers. I've learned some basic stuff through trial and error because of necessity for job related programs, but I didn't have to worry about crashing a couple thousand dollar home machine because I goofed.
Programmers use a different language that makes perfect sense to them, but is just greek to me and I don't speak greek. I've done countless searches and made inquiries on a miriad of different forums with little or no results. Simple things like those tossed around in this thread discussing various programs and their limitations. What limitations ??? Everyone seems to think "Well that's common knowledge". Well, it may be to those who have learned and used it, but to me.....no idea what you're talking about.
I run a nuclear power plant and have/could explain fission, fusion, thermodynamics, power factors, VARS, house curves, load line, neutron poisons, and on and on and on..., but most would just look at me with a blank stare because they have no understanding of the terminology or frame of reference to associate it to.
I wish there was a class close by that was convenient for me to attend with my goofy work schedule, but there isn't. Thus, I'm relying on the internet and books to try and figure it out on my own with most things I've found assuming that you have some base knowledge and understanding of how it all works to begin with. Nothing I've found explaind to the level a complete beginner can understnad.
If I've missed something available out there that would help me out, please let me know.


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## xalky

JPigg55 said:


> Same thing goes for me.
> Growing up on a small farm working on equipment, the mechanical stuff comes easy. Also, as pointed out in an earlier post, most mechanical parts are based on a standard of some sorts.
> Even electrical isn't too much of a pain since everything is pretty much standardized, but roll into the world of electronics......nothing seems to be standardized.
> Yes, at its root everything boils down to 1's & 0's, but what makes up the 1's & 0's is different with almost every program out there. Seems everything in the programming work is a never ending VHS vs Betamax battle. Learn this method, but it won't translate to this other one (which is the new standard for now until something newer comes along) so one is forced to relearn.
> I'd love to learn CAD & CAM for the possibility of going CNC later on, but I'm 50 years old and didn't grow up with computers. I've learned some basic stuff through trial and error because of necessity for job related programs, but I didn't have to worry about crashing a couple thousand dollar home machine because I goofed.
> Programmers use a different language that makes perfect sense to them, but is just greek to me and I don't speak greek. I've done countless searches and made inquiries on a miriad of different forums with little or no results. Simple things like those tossed around in this thread discussing various programs and their limitations. What limitations ??? Everyone seems to think "Well that's common knowledge". Well, it may be to those who have learned and used it, but to me.....no idea what you're talking about.
> I run a nuclear power plant and have/could explain fission, fusion, thermodynamics, power factors, VARS, house curves, load line, neutron poisons, and on and on and on..., but most would just look at me with a blank stare because they have no understanding of the terminology or frame of reference to associate it to.
> I wish there was a class close by that was convenient for me to attend with my goofy work schedule, but there isn't. Thus, I'm relying on the internet and books to try and figure it out on my own with most things I've found assuming that you have some base knowledge and understanding of how it all works to begin with. Nothing I've found explaind to the level a complete beginner can understnad.
> If I've missed something available out there that would help me out, please let me know.


 
First you have to decide if your gonna go with a home brew cnc solution. If the answer is yes, then that'll narrow down the focus for software. There's probably 100 different ways to skin this cat. 

As far as controller software goes, Mach3 controller software,seems to be very popular for home brew CNC, 3D milling and 2D cutting such as plasma and oy/acet. It's good to stick with a popular solution, since there's more information first hand experience floating around. 

Sheetcam is also very popular to generate the g-code which is read by mach3.

So for my application , Plasma cutting. the design procedure goes something like this,
1) Design the part in CAD(autoCad, Turbocad, RhinoCad etc) , I can also draw art in( corel draw, Inkscape etc)or import artwork from  the internet or scanner etc.
2) Export the file as a .dxf file to Sheetcam and design the tool paths in Sheetcam to cut the part, 
3)Export that file as a .tap file(g-code) to Mach3, which is on the machine controllerPC.
4) set your zeros on the CNC machine and run the file in mach 3 to control our machine.

It took me a while just to figure out what to do and how to do it. I'm certainly no expert, I've just scratched the surface, but i figure, if i do enough of it and persevere, i'll get really good at it eventually. 

Here's the bottom line. Don't expect to just push a button and make a part... that aint gonna happen. There's a lot of up front investment in machinery, learning software, time, building and tweaking. The payoff is that once you've paid your dues there, you'l be making some pretty amazing stuff. Once you've made one part you can just as easily repeat the process 100 times with very little extra investment.

These are just my methods to date...like i said there are many different ways to get the same job done, but i've found that sticking to one popular method helps out a lot when you need to ask a question.

Youtube is your friend. There are tutorials that helped me tremendously with the software. When i see it done in a video, it gives me the confidence to follow what they did and get something working. Working strictly from a manual makes me crosseyed and confused, but a manual in conjunction with some video and a little experimenting on my part gets me moving forward and learning.

Marcel


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## JPigg55

Thanks for the reply.
I have the gist of the process and I've read that Mach 3 is a popular program.
Not sure if I will eventually convert my mill over to cnc or buy a cnc ready one. In the mean time, I'm trying to find a good source to learn CAD. No schools close by that teach it where I live and my work schedule and family life prevent traveling to take a course.
Been looking for online sources, but unsuccessful at this point. Figured I'd tackle it all one sep at a time. Learn CAD, figure out what softwares I wanted to run, and go from there.


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## OldMachinist

I learned the machinist trade before there was CNC. NC was new when I was young. Those machines ran on punched paper tapes that somebody had to type into a punch machine after they figured out all the cordinates. When CNC came along I leaned how to program, set up and operate them. The last 10 years before I retired I spent most of my days using Pro-E cad-cam software making solid models and writing CNC programs. Now that I've retired I have forgot most of what I knew about writing CNC programs or running the machines and that's the way I like it. I'd much rather be cranking handles than sitting at a computer any day of the week. So no not every machinist wants to have a CNC machine at home.


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## jumps4

don
I feel the same way about someone showing up at my house wanting me to repair their car. after 37 years of repairing vehicles, i'd rather not.
steve


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## David Kirtley

Please excuse the rant.  

The worst things that scare off people from CNC are pretty obvious to me because I deal with similar issues on a daily basis at work. For the most part, the software is either written by computer people who have no idea about machining, by machining people who have very little computer skills or electronics people who really don't know machining or programming. None of them have any realistic concept of people using the system that are not experts in machining, computers, electronics, and who can't type in a program, use a game controller, keyboard, and mouse simultaneously.

Interacting with with the machines in a "manual" way (conversational mode) is awkward at best.
Support and upgrade issues are even worse than calling tech support for your average computer problem.
User interfaces for the design software, CAM, and control software are horrible. 
Documentation is generally poorly written and so filled with geek-speak that it makes your eyes roll back in your head (if it was even written by a speaker of your language).
The manual programming interface is so poor that it is an embarrassment to programming from 30 years ago. 
The file formats and licensing issues are a turf war/pissing contest by the software companies that do everything they can to screw everyone else without regard for the users. 

Many people are also reluctant to give up some of the advantages of manual machining. Especially if they are doing it for their self and making one off parts. The majority of the time is spent is planning and setting up. The actual cutting time is pretty minor in comparison for most pieces. When it comes down to the actual cutting, a computer can't do what a human operator can do automatically: 


   Compensate for a tooling while making the cut.
   Feel difference in hardness in parts of a work piece.
   Monitor the operation, machine, and work area at the same time.
   Adjust for faults and wear in the machinery on the fly.
   Evaluate finish quality.
   Test fit parts.

I will eventually migrate to CNC but I don't regret the investment of time with the manual stuff. The fact is that there just isn't much that you can do with a CNC setup that you can't do manually. The things that really move me towards CNC are:

It adds a lot of capabilities that you would have to move to much more expensive equipment and tooling to match. 
It takes over some of the tedium of the manual tasks.
Allows complex machining with fewer set ups.


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## Bill Gruby

I can communicate with my machines and it's not awkward. They know what I expect of them and they are not mistreated. I no not wish to have CNC in my shop, ever. The only reason to have it is to speed things up. I don't need to do that, I'm happy in turtle mode. I don't begrudge those that want it, have fun. For me it will take the fun out of machining. 

 The home shop is not a production shop, it is supposed to be a place to have fun. Me not doing the whole job myself the hands on way is not fun.

 I am not sfraid of CNC of anything else for that matter. Put me down on the minority list, not the most list.

 Thank you for allowing my short rant, you are now being returned to your regular channel.

 "Billy G"


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## David Kirtley

Billy G,

Unfortunately, the current CNC systems are designed for replacing experienced machinists rather than aiding aiding them. They designed similar systems 30 years ago when they changed airplanes from mechanical systems to fly by wire. If they set things up properly, you wouldn't even be able to tell that a machine was CNC capable and would work manually just as well or better.  

Rotary encoders could be built into hand wheels and you would be able to adjust the movement per revolution so you could easily change from rapid movement to fine adjustment.
Tactile feedback, lights, or sound effects for units of movements such as thousanths could be built in quite easily so you don't have to take your eyes off the work. 
Display could change to a simple DRO mode with things like color changes to highlight an axis that is moving.
Reference drawings, standard information and calculations (such as the Machinist's Handbook) could be brought up at the touch of a button.   
Tool offsets, edge finding and unlimited waypoints could be automatic.
Strain gauges to measure tool deflection could automatically restrict feed rates to save tools and make accurate dimensions. 

These are just the simple ones. Get a little fancier and you could do much more.


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## JPigg55

I would agree with most things said.However, making a one off part is arguably faster and possibly easier in manualoperation, but given the instance that you needed to make 20+ of the same part, itwould be nice for the choice of CNC due to time savings and material waste due to error.
For me, the best of both worlds would be a machine the could be operated bothmanually and in CNC mode. I've yet to see a set-up where this is possiblewithout the need to disconnect motors or more. Two machines, one manual and oneCNC, would alleviate this, but then one has to consider expense to purchase andset up, shop space, and machine tooling commonality for using same tooling onboth machines or having a complete set of tooling for both (more $$$).
Imagine, if you would, where a person could purchase a quality machineavailable in various sizes and power requirements at a reasonable price thatcould be operated in either manual or CNC mode, ran by a program written by amachine user that was easy to learn, understand, and use. Capable of recordingand saving manual operations for repeatable production or operating off ofCAD/CAM style drawings/instructions.
Me, I'm new to both manual machining and CNC with basically an unbiased viewdue to ignorance. How can one say which is better given that it's a personalpreference. I would have to say that the CNC operator would find instances where manual opertion would be the desired choice and vice versa.
That said, will I ever chose CNC ??? I'm not sure, but don't see a reason why I shouldn't learn how to use it if for no other reason than to expand my horizons, let me make a more informed choice, and allow for the possibility.
I guess until my dream machine and operating program is available. I'll just have to muddle through.


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## Bill Gruby

David Kirtley said:


> Billy G,
> 
> Unfortunately, the current CNC systems are designed for replacing experienced machinists rather than aiding aiding them. They designed similar systems 30 years ago when they changed airplanes from mechanical systems to fly by wire. If they set things up properly, you wouldn't even be able to tell that a machine was CNC capable and would work manually just as well or better.
> 
> Rotary encoders could be built into hand wheels and you would be able to adjust the movement per revolution so you could easily change from rapid movement to fine adjustment.
> Tactile feedback, lights, or sound effects for units of movements such as thousanths could be built in quite easily so you don't have to take your eyes off the work.
> Display could change to a simple DRO mode with things like color changes to highlight an axis that is moving.
> Reference drawings, standard information and calculations (such as the Machinist's Handbook) could be brought up at the touch of a button.
> Tool offsets, edge finding and unlimited waypoints could be automatic.
> Strain gauges to measure tool deflection could automatically restrict feed rates to save tools and make accurate dimensions.
> 
> These are just the simple ones. Get a little fancier and you could do much more.



David;

 We know we are being phased out so to speak. Just remember who to call when it breaks down. You won't find him in house and you will pay dearly for his time. Not to mention the time for the company he works for. Sometimes progress is misnamed.
 Sorry guys, this post got my butt out. No machine will ever replace man. Man made them. There will always be one man
 there.
 I will not reply anymore to this post as it it biased and the side of the skilled machinist is slighted.

"Bill Gruby" (EXPERIENCED MACHINIST)


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## jumps4

I run my cnc more in manual mode than running programs if they are straight moves
i either hold down a key to move the axis to the desired location at a preset speed or type in a speed and location to go to.
using it manual is like having power feed on every axis.
and when i started this thread i said "most" not all  maybe i should have added hobby machinist  oh well hindsight
steve


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## scleaf

Hi Folks, 

I am new around here but I have wanted a milling machine my whole life. I finally broke down and bought one with Acu-Rite Millpwr 3 III cnc control. It did cost more money but since I am computer literate it does not come with a challenge. So far I have been able to make a few parts (Electronic Edge Finder), gears, tool holders. Though the machine only does what I tell it to do, I do not think it could replace me, but it could reduce the repetitive task I have to do. My new focus id to possibly make a 4th axis rotary index for the machine, however I am still in the learning phase and want to go about it slowly.

The Pros of CNC (my opinion)
-Recreating parts in numbers. 
-Accuratecy
-Repeatability
-3d milling

The Cons
-Cost
-Learning Curve
-Cost of repairs

I really do not know too much, but it is all fun and allowing me to be creative.

Cheers
Vince


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## Ray C

For the past 32 years, I've earned a living working in areas that rely on every kind of computer or micro-controller known to mankind.  The LAST thing I want to do when I come home to relax in the shop, is to screw-around with more dysfunctional software and half-baked hardware solutions.  I've had my snoot-full of tinkering with computers.  Been there, done that... -yawn.   So if I were to get into CAM, I wouldn't want a "do-it-yourself" project type setup but rather, a fully functional system that's already got the kinks worked out.  -And in all honesty, I probably couldn't afford such a package for the small scale of work I do.

That said, 30% of the work I do to feed my addiction are repairs/restorations, another 30% is one-of-a-kind fabrication and the rest is my own stuff for pure pleasure -and I try to push the envelope of the personal projects I tackle.  For example, I designed from the ground-up a two stage turbine engine... Did all the thermodynamics, designed the blades, oil and fuel pumps, and designed a combined radial and thin-film thrust bearing mechanism that spins at 120,000 RPM with 300lb thrust.  I'm about to prototype the bearing system.  This whole project is now 2 years on paper and this upcoming year in the shop.

Virtually everything I do is "one-of-a-kind" and virtually everything I do can be done perfectly well with manual machines.  And since I'm a technology adviser (of sorts) by day, I like to come home and work with my hands.


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## JPigg55

Bill Gruby said:


> David;
> 
> We know we are being phased out so to speak. Just remember who to call when it breaks down. You won't find him in house and you will pay dearly for his time. Not to mention the time for the company he works for. Sometimes progress is misnamed.
> Sorry guys, this post got my butt out. No machine will ever replace man. Man made them. There will always be one man
> there.
> I will not reply anymore to this post as it it biased and the side of the skilled machinist is slighted.
> 
> "Bill Gruby" (EXPERIENCED MACHINIST)



As far as my posts were concerned, no slighting was intended.
I look at this thread on the site "Hobby Machinist the Friendly Machinst Forum" under "CNC in the Home Shop".
My impressions of this site and the people on it so far is one of mutual respect and friendship through the posts I've read. Much more so than many of the other site I visit and member to. I'm fairly new here and have posted more here and gotten more answers/opinions here than all the others combined.
Some posts cause a little friction with or between members, but I've personally only read, what I consider, one snide comment towards a newer member looking for advice & information. Something all too often seen on other sites.
My father was a machinist with Cat for 30 years working with manual machines never touching a computer. I have the utmost respect for you guys that can create art out of bare materials.
I, however, started researching CNC for personal reasons. Looking for a possible solution to the limited time I can devote for the projects I'm looking to persue. The faster repeatability for making runs of various parts could be cut to days vs weeks or months. For those with the time and talent to do this type of work all manually, my hat's off to you and I wish I were in your shoes so to speak.
My 2 cents.


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## David Kirtley

For me, the CNC stuff is the project and not the tool set. I work at a university in the college of Engineering and Computer Science with a well outfitted machine shop with manual and CNC equipment everywhere. The only thing they have there that I would give up garage space for is their awesome horizontal bandsaw. A definite thing of beauty. <sigh>

I have three ongoing CNC projects: a gantry router, a lathe, and a 3D printer. I don't need them. My CNC interest is just a platform for some ideas I want to play with and to get some practice manual machining by making parts rather than just producing swarf. I have been experimenting with linear motion and drive systems.  Playing with programming control systems and chip programming (Arduino and bare Atmel processors) and simple electronics like my first H-Bridge motor controller that I built a few months ago. They have been a lot of fun to play with as projects.  Would I convert my mill and lathe to CNC control? I could see some fun things I could do with them but it is not an interest right now. If I really wanted a CNC machine, I could have bought one that would have been cheaper than my rotary table set-up.


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## PurpLev

David Kirtley said:


> I will eventually migrate to CNC but I don't regret the investment of time with the manual stuff. The fact is that there just isn't much that you can do with a CNC setup that you can't do manually. The things that really move me towards CNC are:
> 
> It adds a lot of capabilities that you would have to move to much more expensive equipment and tooling to match.
> It takes over some of the tedium of the manual tasks.
> Allows complex machining with fewer set ups.



I must say I enjoy manual machining, but at the same time, some processes can be tedious (especially with the smaller machines that can take lighter cuts, thus more steps) I keep entertaining the idea of CNCing the mill for the reasons David listed above. Considering the cost of a rotary table (manual) and indexing capabilities and other tooling required for repeatability, CNC cost isn't that great.

at the moment I myself am stuck at the "what would I need, and where do I go from here" stage...  enjoying full manual mode for now.


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## Cuzzun_itt

David Kirtley said:


> Rotary encoders could be built into hand wheels and you would be able to adjust the movement per revolution so you could easily change from rapid movement to fine adjustment.
> Tactile feedback, lights, or sound effects for units of movements such as thousanths could be built in quite easily so you don't have to take your eyes off the work.
> Display could change to a simple DRO mode with things like color changes to highlight an axis that is moving.
> .



If I didn't know better I would say you were describing a ProtoTrac?

Neat machine but awful pricey for a for a home shop.

Itt


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## Tony Wells

CNC machines, like robotics, have their place in the machine shop. I spent many years around them, while consciously keeping my distance. I came from a strictly manual background. There were no NC/CNC machines in school. We had hand-me-down manual equipment from a local JC, who acquired them as Navy surplus after Korea. My first production job was at McEvoy here in Tyler, and although there were NC/CNC machines there, the manual department was sizable. That's where I started. At the time, I knew little of the "automatics" in the other departments. After a while there, I moved to a repair/job shop where it was little more than a barn with machines in it. Learned a lot from both places. Later, after another shop or two, went to a manual shop that was enlarged to include a couple of turning machines. First buy was a pair of Mori-Seiki TL-5 turning centers. Looked very much like this:


Then we bought a pair of Webb CNC mills. They're just beefy knee mills with a nice conversational control. I forget the brand. It's been a while. We continued to grow and bought additional equipment to include Comet VMC's and larger Mazak lathes such as the M-4 and M-4, and another Mori, for a good while, the biggest CNC in the house, an LL-7:




As time went by, and we weathered the ups and downs of the oilfield, we eventually abandoned that facility, after adding footage about 5 times, and built a new place. More machines, larger machines. I've been around them enough to know I don't need them. Right now, my machine work is at a slow, easy pace that I can enjoy. Of course, as I've said before, I'm not a hobbyist. I can see the intrigue that exists in CNC machines (especially for people newly acquainted with machine work), but unless something changes drastically for me, I have no interest in having them in my shop. I'm not afraid of them one bit. I know what they are capable of, and what they are not. I don't need them, not one bit. Besides, if I were to go out and buy one, I'd feel like I needed to keep it busy. That's what they are for. The more they sit, the more money is just being wasted, because they can make money......that's what they are really for.


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## David Kirtley

Cuzzun_itt said:


> If I didn't know better I would say you were describing a ProtoTrac?
> 
> Neat machine but awful pricey for a for a home shop.
> 
> Itt



I wasn't picking on anything in particular. I had not seen ProtoTrack. Looks like a nice product.  I was mostly coming from the direction that you can get USB rotary encoders for $40. They use them all the time for volume controls on car computers. Less fancy encoders are like $4 at Sparkfun with LED lights and stuff already on them. The rest is just organization of the software. 

The ability to focus in and concentrate on manual machines is one of their primary advantages. The hobby range of control software (Mach3 and the like) slap everything on the screen at once. You have to pick through a huge amount of information on screen to read what is going on. Not really a good idea when you are also trying to keep an eye on a machine and workpiece (and potentially people wandering around the shop). You need to be able to see part of the information at a glance. The rest you watch when you are planning things out. The software has needless stuff on the screen at all times. By all means, have a gorgeous simulator that you can preview the tool path before you run a part. You don't need a 3D model showing when you should be watching the cutter. You can't read and interpret the g-code stream as it's streaming at full speed anyway. Get it out of the way. All those CPU cycles could be devoted to timing the electronics instead of updating info on the screen you can't keep up with anyway.


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## scleaf

Hi All,

It seems that those of you that are machinist do not care for CNC in the home. I can see after a long day in the shop you would not want to come home and press buttons. You all have some skill that I do not have yet, I am an aircraft mechanic by trade and moved to Engineering. I am in the learning process for now. I can say I have broken a few cutters, but no crashes while learning my controls. 

Basically my machine is a Bridgeport with 3-axis control. It is a 2008 machine so it does not have the bells and whistles of USB, however It does have a RS232 port and a CF Flash drive. I recently made vise keys for my KURT vise. I could have made these square like the ones on ebay, but I wanted to make them a bit different so I did the math and programed the control. You all could have made the parts in the time I took to set up. I found it to be fun because it cuts the part and sets up for the next part to be cut. So if I cut one part and then reset my X axis I am ready to cut the second part. I could program a lot of them but this is a prototype machine and for small quantities. 

Please forgive me if I am off track a bit, but I am excited to be doing all this and hope to get to know a few of you while heading down this path. Not feeling scared now that I am learning the controls.

experience < 2 months, so a few nights and weekends

best regards,
-Vince

So here is the simple control and part comparison: Find this not too complex but it is a simple part. Will post my electronic edge finder in the correct forum when completed.


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## slowtwitch

Hello folks, First of all, I don't understand the negative responses to having a CNC machine in the home shop under the "CNC IN THE HOME SHOP" thread???????????????? I sure hope this isn't turning into another PM site.   First of all let me say, I'm no machinist. I'm just a lowly maintenance man, that fixes things in an office building. I don't have any fancy degree's. All my training has been "OJT". I do have an addiction....... old VW's. 

About 2 years ago, I designed a new linkage system for VW's. I tried making the parts on an old Emco column mill. But, being a rank beginner at machining, I couldn't work the dials to make some radius's in the part. So i decided to have them machined by the "Pros".. Bad mistake.. I went to 5 different shops....let's just say, it was not productive. 

I then decided to make the parts myself. I bought two CNC machines for my garage...a mill and a lathe. Prior to these machines, I never saw a CNC mill or lathe. In a 8 month period, I refurbished the lathe, learned CAD/Cam and G-code and I've been selling my parts for close to a year and a half. Am I an expert at CNC'ing , not likely. But, I don't think it's as difficult as some people want you to think it is. I taught myself from Google'ing, Youtube'ing and visiting the many forums on the web and if this old geezer can learn something...anyone can 

As for manual machines, I do have an old Enco column drill/mill and an old Logan lathe in the basement. I rarely use the mill and the lathe is used for polishing my pulleys. I've become so used to using the CNC mill and lathe, that it doesn't take the hours of writing code or using a cad/cam, as some have mentioned. In fact, just as some enjoy turning the knobs, I enjoy drawing the part in cad, then turning it over to a cam program to see how I want the tool path to proceed. I also enjoy looking over the Gcode to make any subtle changes to improve my machining.  

Is there anything wrong with having a CNC in you home shop????? Hell no!!!!! Is there anything wrong with having a manual machine in your home shop???? Hell No!!!! It all depends on what you like 

Lastly, since this is the "CNC IN THE HOME SHOP" forum, here are my machines....

My Emco lathe...




My Mill...




My tool rack......




Enjoy making chips !!!!!!


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## Bill Gruby

This forum will never become a PM.

 "Billy G":thinking:


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## Tony Wells

Absolutely right, Bill. 

I don't think that this is a negative thread at all. It is just some guys expressing their opinions (entitled) about the subject. No one at all is saying that you should or shouldn't have anything you want in your shop. I believe most of the responses from those who don't particularly want a CNC are just telling why they feel that way, not being critical of those that want one. As the subject line says " I think most machinist want a cnc but for good reason and myth they are scared", it's just a few of us saying, no, those are not the reasons and we don't want them for this or that reason. No more, no less. From what I gather from these threads is, not surprisingly, many of the individuals just getting into the hobby in this day and age, when computers and automation are part of everyday life, want to dive right into CNC. Nothing wrong with that. When I was just learning, perhaps if all that is available now was available then, I might have felt the same way. But for those who want to get into the home CNC hobby, please try to understand that to become a good manual machinist takes years, and some of us are a bit proud of having that much experience under our belts. That's something you might never really understand or appreciate if you skip the manual mode completely. But we aren't passing judgment on you, nor looking down our collective noses at you as though we are superior just because of our manual skills. You guys will end up with a different skill set, that's all. And believe it or not, most of us respect the CNC operator because of what he does, and the machines for what they do. It's just different, that's all. No one is stomping on anyone's toes.


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## jumps4

nice shop and machines pete
I'm going to copy your tooling cart its really nice
i'd be interested in any details you might wish to share about your touch probe i have been wanting to make one for a while
it would be off topic in this thread so pm if your interested in sharing or start a thread
steve


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## Ray C

Hey Pete,

In that second picture down below, what kind of mill is that.  -Mind telling me the brand/model and possibly a link to the distributor etc?

Thanks

Ray

PS:  I didn't mean for my response to be rude.  -I have all the respect in the world for these CNC setups and the people who know how to make e'm run.  -But honestly, when I looked into this a couple years ago, the equipment itself looked like a project in-and-of itself.  And the software looked like a hodge-podge of different packages that weren't well integrated.  -No sir, not for me.  I want something that works out of the box.

And some other guy in a different thread has got me thinking about this now.


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## slowtwitch

jumps4 said:


> nice shop and machines pete
> I'm going to copy your tooling cart its really nice
> i'd be interested in any details you might wish to share about your touch probe i have been wanting to make one for a while
> it would be off topic in this thread so pm if your interested in sharing or start a thread
> steve




Steve, when I get some time, I will be glad to post details of the probe


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## slowtwitch

Ray C said:


> Hey Pete,
> 
> In that second picture down below, what kind of mill is that.  -Mind telling me the brand/model and possibly a link to the distributor etc?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Ray
> 
> PS:  I didn't mean for my response to be rude.  -I have all the respect in the world for these CNC setups and the people who know how to make e'm run.  -But honestly, when I looked into this a couple years ago, the equipment itself looked like a project in-and-of itself.  And the software looked like a hodge-podge of different packages that weren't well integrated.  -No sir, not for me.  I want something that works out of the box.
> 
> And some other guy in a different thread has got me thinking about this now.



No worries here , Ray   The mill is a Mikini 1610L. I bought the mill used. It's a solid piece mechanically, but, the electronics are suspect, as has been posted at the cncforum.. I'm currently collecting parts to revamp all the electronics. The mill uses Mach3 software to control it. 

As for something that runs out of the box, there are a few "hobby mills" out there that will run "out of the box" . Tormach, Novakon, Syil, Industrial hobbies,  to name a few. They all can run on Mach3 software.


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## Kevin45

I for one would LOVE to have a CNC mill in my garage. I've ran machines all my life practically. I started out as a Tool Designer and hated it. I finally got a job working in a Model Shop building aircraft lighting. When I started in the Model Shop, my Mentor asked me if I ever worked with sheetmetal, which I didn't. He kept me on sheetmetal projects for almost two years. I thought he disliked me until the light bulb clicked on. He was training me to do what the other older Modelmakers couldn't do. It was nothing to figure out a blank, cut the blank on a standard mill, then form it up on the brake press. The Model Shop broke up and I was put into Tool Design again and the others went to the Toolroom. I did the designing for all of the Toolroom guys, but I hated sitting behind the desk. There is nothing worse than a September day, sitting beside a window, sun shining, breeze blowing, and listening to kids across the street playing outside at recess. I couldn't concentrate on anything it seemed. A job opened up in the Toolroom and I bid on it and got it, so I was back to doing what I loved. After a while they split up the Toolroom into two different Toolrooms and I was put out at the other plant (we had 2 plants in town) running a CNC mill. Good God.....it was intimidating. But I worked at it to try and figure things out. My boss helped me with it as he used to be a programmer. It didn't take me long to figure out that a lot of things he had his hands in and on were going out the door wrong. Fast forward a couple of years, I really didn't care for my boss. Not for him being a dick, but for how he let things slide, fudge a program to get it to run, etc. So I traded positions with one of the guys in the other Toolroom at the other plant. They had (2) Prototrak CNC mills, two axis. With the ProtoTrak, you program more in conversation mode than in G-Code. I loved it. Where the Toolroom was, we were in a basement of the shop with limited ceiling height. We were going to get a 3 axis CNC, but only found one that would fit in the department. It was a ProtoTrak QuikCell. If I remember correctly, it was right at 7' in height, and the table travel was 14" x 14". Not a lot of travel, but if you designed your part right and used some tooling holes, there wasn't much I couldn't make. I ended up having to retire on Disability, so I don't have a CNC.

For the ones that say they don't need or don't want a CNC, the only two things stopping you are either intimidation or money, or both. A CNC is not only a timesaver, but it also opens up new doors as to what you can make. Like I mentioned above, where I found out my boss was sending stuff out the door wrong or he was fudging things to get the job done, the CNC let me find that out. The programming computer we had, used SmartCam for the designing and programming. It would work on the two axis machines but not the three axis. I ended up being the only one that would run the three axis because everyone else was too intimidated by it. They would draw something in two axis and put it on the two axis mill and manually put in stop points so they could change Z height. For production, it wasted a lot of time. But even having a 2 axis CNC at home, lets you do so much more than you could ever do on a standard mill, and a three axis just multiplies what you can do by a hundred. I remember the days on the manual mills and before the digital readouts. Count your revolutions, go past where you need to get rid of the backlash, drop your quill down and cut. It get's kind of rough when some of the machines we had might have anywhere between .030-.050 backlash, but you're making a part that has a +/-.005 tolerance. 

Having a CNC at home really is no different than when you got your first computer at home, or your first mill or lathe at home. I can bet almost everyone procrastinated about buying that first computer because you said "What would we use it for"? The same way with a mill or lathe and either trying to convince yourself, or your wife. Almost everyone that buys a mill or lathe, once they get it home, puts a piece of stock in it to see what you can do with it, then it sets for a while. Then later on down the road, you wonder how you ever got along without it. A CNC isn't any different. It just throws that first computer and that first mill in the blender to create the CNC.

I hoping that someday, I can find one that I can afford to buy and bring home, or that with some help, I can find someone to help me out converting my mill to CNC. As it stands now, I'm missing out on some projects.


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## Bill Gruby

"FOR THOSE WHO SAY THEY DON'T NEED OR WANT CNC, THE ONLY TWO THINGS STOPPING YOU ARE EITHER INTIMIDATION OR MONEY OR BOTH"


Now we have someone telling us what we need and why we don't have it. My friend you are 110% wrong in my case. I have run CNC machines for a short time just to see what it felt like. So I guess that rules out intimidation. On to no money, I am retired and make close to 6 figures a year. Guess that one takes care of no money huh.

I don't want or need CNC in my shop for one reason. I like doing it the old way. Tony mentioned PRIDE, guess this is what he meant. Case closed.

"Billy G" :lmao:


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## PurpLev

Bill Gruby said:


> "FOR THOSE WHO SAY THEY DON'T NEED OR WANT CNC, THE ONLY TWO THINGS STOPPING YOU ARE EITHER INTIMIDATION OR MONEY OR BOTH"
> 
> 
> Now we have someone telling us what we need and why we don't have it. My friend you are 110% wrong in my case. I have run CNC machines for a short time just to see what it felt like. So I guess that rules out intimidation. On to no money, I am retired and make close to 6 figures a year. Guess that one takes care of no money huh.
> 
> I don't want or need CNC in my shop for one reason. I like doing it the old way. Tony mentioned PRIDE, guess this is what he meant. Case closed.
> 
> "Billy G" :lmao:



while personally I do like to toy with the idea of setting up CNC, I do agree with Billy here. Depending on the type of machining people do and the reason they do it for, not all really need/want/should be having CNC in some cases it would defeat the purpose of machining in the first place.

Cheers


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## DMS

Oh, what the heck, I might as well throw my 2c in on the subject.

I think that most people who are new to machining, or who have ideas that they want to realize, want a CNC machine because the idea is very seductive. Specifically, many people think that a CNC machine is some sort of mechanical Santa Clause, where you click some buttons and your new hydrospanner pops out the other end; the reality is that it is not that simple. There is also the idea that certain things just can't be done except for under computer control; I know that I have seen some things done by a manual machinist that I couldn't have figured out how to do myself if I had not seen the step by step.

I started out with manual machines (small import mill and lathe). I have upgraded to a knee mill that I have converted to CNC (or am currently converting, work in progress), and a larger manual lathe that will stay manual. 

I am of the opinion that the old guys knew what they were doing. Many amazing things were done before the invention of NC tools. I recall a professor of mine lamenting the fact that he helped put a spacecraft on the moon using only slide rules. 

So, I say, learn both.  If this is a hobby for you, do what you enjoy. I enjoy a bit of both.


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## slowtwitch

[h=1]Forum: CNC IN THE HOME SHOP[/h]If you have or want CNC in your home shop, this is the forum for you!



Need I say more, if you don't want or need a CNC ....why post on this forum.  I don't get it


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## fast freddie

jumps4 said:


> these are my reasons and my opinion
> I was scared i was going to waste money i really didnt have on a machine that would be below standard and to complicated to learn.
> so i started researching and found these problems for home cnc
> 1. there is no standard for the terms used by the manufactures of parts, the writers of software and just about every aspect of the building of your own cnc. I'm a auto mechanic and could not imagine a spark plug being called something else because another company made it. so for me to read most any literature on cnc i needed a list of terms and definitions to figure out each sentence. and that list is for just that manufacture. thats a lot of lists
> 2. ok it's killing our economy but without the chinese only the fortune 500 companies can do this and that brings us to translation. this guy in china reads chinese well but does not understand how the sentence translates into a readable english or any language for that matter to form a sentence so lets just pic an english word and put it down. no matter how you read it "cintered canine and crushed paste of yellow zest" is not a "hotdog with mustard"
> 3. wiring. just about anyone mechanical can modify the machine and do a good job , make it accurate with low cost ballscrews because cnc compensates for backlash automaticly when set up properly. the fact is wiring a cnc is as easy as playing with batterys , lightbulbs and switches like you probably did as a kid. here is the catch anyone can connect wire a to terminal b as per the instructions. nope the breakout board instructions say connect a wire from step+ on the breakout board to step+ on the motor controller. what is the controller i have a driver and it does not have the word step on it anywhere. it says pulse. your thinking magic smoke. the fact is the driver is the controller and step and pulse mean the same thing. so wiring now is a nightmare for the same reason as item 1. terms and standards.
> 4 learning the cad and cam programs and their cost. you are not nasa you need a cad software that draws circles squares rectangles ect where you want, then the size you want them, and saves in a dxf format. thats free online everywhere i use emachine shop it is so simple you draw the box and up at the top you say the box is here in x and y and it is this high and that wide thats it. drop a circle on the end delete the unneeded lines an you have a bullet. cam software same thing you want simple and low to no cost. are you really needing a software that cuts 5 axis in full blown 3d i cant even think 5 axis yet.
> i have a bunch of free programs all limited but when you have them all you can do almost everything.
> unless you want to just make scrap you wont write complete programs to finish a complex part in unending steps you very quickly pick the cut from the drawing and tell it the cutter size left right or on center, depth per pass and total depth. run it. thats good pick the next pocket corner and
> continue. It is faster than reading prints mounting rotory tables and turning cranks and it dont get tired. It's working, your on the lathe making something else.
> just my opinion and i guess you can tell i like cnc or anything i can make behave with my pc
> if i could just mount steppers on my wife what a life this would be.
> What Do You Think
> steve



i'm just not smart enough, its rocket science to me  --------------     freddie


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## David Kirtley

Just because they make motorcycles, doesn't mean that everyone wanting to ride a bicycle is wrong. They are not the same thing. It is not a matter of it being expensive or scary, fast or slow, new or old fashioned. It is a process. It's not just about making a product.  CNC and manual machining have different approaches, different paces, and different work flows. 

I do things like this because I enjoy it. I was out in the garage last night until almost 1:30am starting on a new QCTP for my lathe. The process is why I was doing it. It doesn't matter if it takes me a while to build it. I don't even need another one. It is just something I wanted to try. Like most things I make for fun, it would have been much faster and cheaper if I had just bought it.

How would my time been more enjoyable if I had done it with a CNC machine rather than manual machines?

Don't get me wrong. I really enjoy CNC stuff too but, it is an apples and oranges comparison.


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## Bill Gruby

slowtwitch said:


> *Forum: CNC IN THE HOME SHOP*
> 
> If you have or want CNC in your home shop, this is the forum for you!
> 
> 
> 
> Need I say more, if you don't want or need a CNC ....why post on this forum. I don't get it




 It is my belief that the heading on this thread leaves it open to those that do and those that don't have CNC in the shop. Now, when someone comes along and states he knows why we don't have it in two specific reasons, it deserves to be answered.   I did, in the most polite way I could.
 Please do not get the idea that I am against CNC. I am not. It's just not my thing and not because of intimidation or money.

 "Billy G" :lmao:


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## Cuzzun_itt

David Kirtley said:


> I wasn't picking on anything in particular. I had not seen ProtoTrack. Looks like a nice product.  I was mostly coming from the direction that you can get USB rotary encoders for $40. They use them all the time for volume controls on car computers. Less fancy encoders are like $4 at Sparkfun with LED lights and stuff already on them. The rest is just organization of the software.



No no David, I didn't mean you were picking on anything, I just meant the ProtoTrak 
has everthing you described. They are really nice machines. But in my opinion you 
could get much more for the money,like a tool changer. 

I will never buy a CNC mill without a tool changer, or a lathe without a chip conveyor and part
catcher.

My little home shop seems to attrack small production runs. 

I don't do many onezy's or toozy's but it's fun on some projects bikes , hotrods
guns. I do other stuff to pay for the fun stuff.

Itt


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## jumps4

my grandfather was a cabinet/furniture wooden clock maker and so was his father, i could only imagine my grandfather and his dad comparing hand made to machine made furniture and how you dont really get a feel for the wood with a power saw ripping it apart and shapers molding the edges.
my great grand father didnt live long enough or he might have had to face that fast paced world of power saws and drilling machines.
complaining once to my grandfather when he was a kid he said " the way this world is going , the next thing you know they will be charging us for water"
  when i was a kid they offered me typing or spanish as a class in school i could not understand any use for either at the time but i wish i would have done it now.
   some still make furniture and clocks all by hand and it is an art and so is manual machining, a real art requiring deep concentration, planning and coordination. these are all the reason i went to cnc i have none of the required attributes. my manual work was below par and i need an answer or go back to woodworking. as far as it being hard I could not spell "cnc" 5 years ago now i'm very comfortable with the machines and understand how everything is supposed to work and it didnt take college to get to where i am. just a lot of online research and accepting failure as a learning tool.
 projects made by hand like the stephens favorite just leave me in awww all the setups and rotary table work is amazing. everything i see being done i could do with cnc probably but it would not hold the same value to me as if i had done it by hand. there is a lot of enjoyment in that type of machine work and for the most part i just spit out parts for what ever i'm building my enjoyment is when everything fits and it works.
 if my back would have not gone bad i'd probably still be running my manual machines but i cant stand in one place long and i had to find an answer. and i'm very happy i did or i'd probably be sitting in a rocker watching oprah ( shoot me please ) just waiting to go to bed.
just my thoughts
steve


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## Bill Gruby

You said a mouthful Steve, thank-you.

 "Billy G" )


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## Bill Gruby

I will make this brief. I have now been asked via PM why I am in this thread because of my negativity. I am not negative toward CNC now or ever have been. That takes care of that question.

Now why am I here? I refer you to the menu page. At the bottom of the CNC in the home shop Board is a list of Moderators. I believe one of them is me. If while I am moderating I see a question that needs answering and I can, I DO.

Are there any other questions I can answer for any of you? If not I now return you the the regularly scheduled program. Play nice, the world is watching.

"Billy G" Global Moderator )


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## scleaf

Hard to post after the last one, 

Each person is entitled to their opinion providing it is not offensive or attacking to others. The way I am looking at this is the original post was stating some sort of fear factor, but there are the old school machinist and new school machinist with different opinions, skills or lack there of. I think the purpose of NC was to assist the machinist by reducing time it takes to make parts, cut labor cost by allowing less skilled machinist to make more complex cuts buy removing the skill needed. Look at 4th and 5th axis and the complexity is far greater than some human minds like mine can comprehend. It would appear that you would need to be a rocket scientist to design the rocket, machine the rocket, launch the rocket and if you are using a 5th axis machine have a PHD in math and computer science. 

Watched a video of a 5 axis machine cutting a full scale model of a car with real contours and with such detail. It was like watching a ninja slice a watermelon. Without CNC it would be like filling up the Queen Mary with a normal gas pump. The job will get done, but how old will the operator be when it was! Quite amazing!

With that said, I am happy I have CNC with the ability for manual milling as I am learning, not an experienced machinist yet. I can understand geometric designs/tolerances, able to read and understand a blue prints and do math in my head to some degree. My hats off to you old timers who have made the parts, technology and knowledge available for us to leverage. You are the pioneers and have earned the respect notably due to you. I personally consider myself a settler who wants to now become a pioneer myself. 

Believing in advancement, evolution, and change with the understanding that people are set in their ways and are less likely to change their thinking unless they want to. I have three young adult sons, and with all the time I have spent in the garage, one would think they might take an interest. We talked of making a part only to see the part was purchased and installed on the car already. Seems this generation now wants instant gratification and is not willing to take the time to start from a block of metal. I look at CNC as Instant gratification, from thought, to code to cutting the part. It is practical. Look at 3d printing. Some day that will be metal (actually already here).

Being a first generation internet surfer and former BBS operator, I use the internet like a bible or dictionary. When I seek knowledge I surf and thus that is why I am here seeking knowledge. I could read a book, take a class, watch a video, but will not get the lessons learned, tips and tricks. Anyone with a little money can buy a mill/CNC machine, put it in their garage and cut parts (me being proof). If in the end the parts have the same properties and tolerances, one would not know if the experienced machinist or the CNC operator made the part. The only person that would know is the person that made the part. 

Just my opinion, I am entitled       Sorry for the rambling!


----------



## Kevin45

scleaf said:


> Hard to post after the last one,
> 
> Each person is entitled to their opinion providing it is not offensive or attacking to others. The way I am looking at this is the original post was stating some sort of fear factor, but there are the old school machinist and new school machinist with different opinions, skills or lack there of. I think the purpose of NC was to assist the machinist by reducing time it takes to make parts, cut labor cost by allowing less skilled machinist to make more complex cuts buy removing the skill needed. Look at 4th and 5th axis and the complexity is far greater than some human minds like mine can comprehend. It would appear that you would need to be a rocket scientist to design the rocket, machine the rocket, launch the rocket and if you are using a 5th axis machine have a PHD in math and computer science.
> 
> Watched a video of a 5 axis machine cutting a full scale model of a car with real contours and with such detail. It was like watching a ninja slice a watermelon. Without CNC it would be like filling up the Queen Mary with a normal gas pump. The job will get done, but how old will the operator be when it was! Quite amazing!
> 
> With that said, I am happy I have CNC with the ability for manual milling as I am learning, not an experienced machinist yet. I can understand geometric designs/tolerances, able to read and understand a blue prints and do math in my head to some degree. My hats off to you old timers who have made the parts, technology and knowledge available for us to leverage. You are the pioneers and have earned the respect notably due to you. I personally consider myself a settler who wants to now become a pioneer myself.
> 
> Believing in advancement, evolution, and change with the understanding that people are set in their ways and are less likely to change their thinking unless they want to. I have three young adult sons, and with all the time I have spent in the garage, one would think they might take an interest. We talked of making a part only to see the part was purchased and installed on the car already. Seems this generation now wants instant gratification and is not willing to take the time to start from a block of metal. I look at CNC as Instant gratification, from thought, to code to cutting the part. It is practical. Look at 3d printing. Some day that will be metal (actually already here).
> 
> Being a first generation internet surfer and former BBS operator, I use the internet like a bible or dictionary. When I seek knowledge I surf and thus that is why I am here seeking knowledge. I could read a book, take a class, watch a video, but will not get the lessons learned, tips and tricks. Anyone with a little money can buy a mill/CNC machine, put it in their garage and cut parts (me being proof). If in the end the parts have the same properties and tolerances, one would not know if the experienced machinist or the CNC operator made the part. The only person that would know is the person that made the part.
> 
> Just my opinion, I am entitled       Sorry for the rambling!




In defense of ones that don't care for CNC, or even the ones that do like CNC, what they don't tell you about the numbers in saving time is how long did it take to program the part. CNC does, or is at least supposed to give you consistency. Once there are many long hours spent on a program and the tweaks to the program, then it can be given to any button pusher on the floor as long as he knows how to chuck that part up. When I was in Tool Design, we were always told to make things idiot proof. A term that is not allowed in the shop today. But what CNC has done to a lot of factories, is it got rid of the skilled workers. Shops now can hire anyone off the street that remotely act like they want a job, give them a **** test, a badge and a pair of safety glasses and call them a machinist. 

I don't care what anyone says, and you can't convince me that the person they hired in yesterday and pushes the "Start" button, is a machinist. I have personally watched my shop bring in people, put them behind a machine, then walk away without training. They let them learn by asking other employees, or learning by mistakes. Three years ago, we were really busy at work and they hired in quite a few temps. Put them behind machines, and turned them loose. My main job at that time was building and repairing dies. The die department at our plant had 10 people, three who were temps. I kept a log of every die I worked on, whether it was a new build from scratch, whether it was a repair due to a broken punch of needing a sharpening, or whether it was a broken die that needed a new die shoe and total rebuild. In that year, I ordered something like 170 brand new steel die shoes of various sizes to rebuild the dies complete, approximately 500 dies that needed broken components fixed, and maybe 200 dies that just needed sharpening. Some of our dies were small and some were quite large. Most of the broken dies were done out of shear stupidity of not paying attention. There were even older employees that really should have been taken out of the department and given nothing more than a broom and a dustpan to work with. Our shop makes aircraft lighting, so there are many components that will go into one light. We had one die person running reflectors, maybe 2" in diameter and spherical in shape. Nothing big about it at all. When the broken die shoe came over to be rebuilt, naturally I asked what happened. The operator said he couldn't figure out where his parts were going. He kept running them but couldn't find the parts. It's amazing as to how you can split hardened steel. He set the die up on parallels because of the large hole in the bolster plate, and the parallel was right under the clearance hole on the die shoe. The steel die shoe was cracked 3/4 of the way through and the die components split in multiple pieces. IIRC, there were around 25 blanks wedged in the die. Other times, the temps would set a die up and forget to tighten the top portion of the die. One or two parts would run then the top portion would rotate slightly. You can imagine what happens when a 60 ton press comes down and the guide pins and bushings are not lined up. Amazingly, no one got hurt, and I do not know how they kept from getting hurt. The other thing is that managements hands were tied when it came to reprimanding an individual. 

And as time goes on, there will be less and less skilled workers. Todays mindset is that everyone needs to be computer literate and have a college degree. You can't get a job without a high school diploma, a GED is almost worthless anymore, an Associates Degree hold basically the same worth as a High School Diploma did a few years ago. A Bachelors Degree might get you behind a desk depending on the place of employment. I don't understand it because I have never been through college, but we have some engineers, designing components for Military and Commercial aircraft that have a degree in Agriculture. About the only skilled trade anymore, where you actually have to learn a skill seems to come from ones that didn't have money to go to college and were lucky enough to get into a place a few years back by knowing someone or having a family member working there, or had the knowhow to start their own business. Hopefully someday, more manufacturing will come back to the U.S. and we will start teaching people again how to learn a skill. But then again, maybe because I'm getting older and starting to be old fashioned, that I just don't get it now, in todays world.


----------



## OrangeAlpine

Sure, I'd like to go CNC.  Sort of.  Yes, it would widen the scope of parts available, especially from the mill, but when considering my situation, no way.  

1.  I'm computer stupid.
2.  Not electroncally gifted.  Perhaps not electronically stupid, but definitely "challanged".
3.  I'm dyslexic.  Probably means nothing to the non-dyslexic.
4.  I've yet to master the capabilities of the manual vertical mill.
5.  Cost.
6.  Age.

Bill


----------



## Kevin45

OrangeAlpine said:


> Sure, I'd like to go CNC.  Sort of.  Yes, it would widen the scope of parts available, especially from the mill, but when considering my situation, no way.
> 
> 1.  I'm computer stupid.
> 2.  Not electroncally gifted.  Perhaps not electronically stupid, but definitely "challanged".
> 3.  I'm dyslexic.  Probably means nothing to the non-dyslexic.
> 4.  I've yet to master the capabilities of the manual vertical mill.
> 5.  Cost.
> 6.  Age.
> 
> Bill



Bill....don't ever let age stop you from doing anything. No one is ever too old to learn or too old to play.
Cost......that is a factor for a lot of people. But you work all your life, don't save it for the kids, or grandkids. Enjoy what you worked for.
Dyslexic......Don't let that stop you, it just makes things more interesting and keeps the mind sharp by analyzing your mistake(s). I know, I'm dyslexic when typing and when I am doing something with numbers
Electronically Challenged and Computer Stupid.......no you're not. You are typing replies on a computer. You're not challenged, you're just letting yourself open to be intimidated.

Download a CAD program (I like DeltaCad and they have a demo version. And it's cheap to buy) and start working with that. If you are going to make something on a mill, make a cad drawing of what you are going to do. Whether it be drilling a bunch of holes or just making a flycut, draw your part. It will get you more familiar with the computer so you won't feel challenged. Just remember that everyone started machining not knowing anything. And machining is a relaxing hobby that there are so many people out there that are willing to walk you through things than you realize. I personally think that machining and machinist is one area of work and are the type of people, that will not make fun of others. No matter what your skill level is, a machinist will always help a fellow machinist or would be machinist.


----------



## slowtwitch

Being a "HOME SHOP CNC MACHINIST" and I emphasize The HOME SHOP.  I don't begrudge the manual machinist one bit, in fact, I'm in awe in what can be done by a truly experienced craftsman turning the dials. With that being said, I still see this as being a CNC forum. I thought it to be a place to ask questions about CNC, learn about CNC, help folks with CNC..not debate the faults or that someone is not interested in CNC. I respect the manual machinist and in that respect, I don't visit their forums and voice a negative opinions(although I have none) of manual machining.  

In a production shop you may have your stereotypical button pusher, but, in being a "HOME SHOP CNC MACHINIST" again I emphasize "the Home Shop", (just like the heading of this forum), I think your just as much a machinist as one who does it manually. You don't just press cycle start. You have to know your speeds, feeds, tool paths, setups, designing, etc. You need to know your machine just as much as a manual mill/lathe.


Hey, lets make some chips!!!!!!!


----------



## David Kirtley

scleaf said:


> Hard to post after the last one,
> 
> Look at 4th and 5th axis and the complexity is far greater than some human minds like mine can comprehend. It would appear that you would need to be a rocket scientist to design the rocket, machine the rocket, launch the rocket and if you are using a 5th axis machine have a PHD in math and computer science.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> If in the end the parts have the same properties and tolerances, one would not know if the experienced machinist or the CNC operator made the part. The only person that would know is the person that made the part.
> 
> Just my opinion, I am entitled       Sorry for the rambling!



It is pretty amazing the kinds of things the human mind can comprehend. Remember, they comprehended and programmed the 5 axis machines too.    A 5th axis is complicated but look at the complexity of the Antikythera device from 100 BC.   We are talking about metalworking with such primitive tools that are mind blowing. Some files, a hand saw, a compass, some scrapers and gravers, and a hammer.  Not much more. Oh, don't forget that they generally processed their own ore as well.

Here is a reconstruction. of the Antikythera device with clear faces to show what was inside:




Patternmakers routinely made the same kinds things for several hundred years that CNC makers make today. All by hand. To scale and accounting for shrinkage. Often with amazingly beautiful embellishments. A couple hundred years ago they were routinely using machines like a rose engine:



They are a work of art on their own. The things that they produce are even more amazing. These make (among other things) the intricate engravings that prevent counterfeiting such as in the printing on money and stamps and the intricate Guilloche on tiny parts on the inside of fancy watches that you would be hard pressed to even be able to do on a CNC machine.

Actually, the parts don't come out the same. With precision machinery, when you want things to really fit properly with close tolerances, parts out of a CNC machine are still not accurate enough.  They are just fairly close and a bit less work to finish than rough castings.  When you want real precision, out come the primitive hand tools. Scrapers, ink, surface plate, and a lot of sweat. 

CNC machines do some things really well. They have their limits as well.  It will be a while until CNC machines can do something like this:


----------



## David Kirtley

OrangeAlpine said:


> Sure, I'd like to go CNC.  Sort of.  Yes, it would widen the scope of parts available, especially from the mill, but when considering my situation, no way.
> 
> 1.  I'm computer stupid.
> 
> Bill



Never feel bad about not understanding a computer. I work in that field. Computer programmers have a tendency to come up with the most horrible ways to do things that I have ever seen in my life. If you ever walk up to a computer and if you cannot make it do what it was supposed to do, it is the fault of the programmer and not the user. Computers have the same intelligence as a hammer. There is no reason other than poor programming to make them any less obvious in their use.


----------



## OrangeAlpine

David Kirtley said:


> Never feel bad about not understanding a computer. I work in that field. Computer programmers have a tendency to come up with the most horrible ways to do things that I have ever seen in my life. If you ever walk up to a computer and if you cannot make it do what it was supposed to do, it is the fault of the programmer and not the user. Computers have the same intelligence as a hammer. There is no reason other than poor programming to make them any less obvious in their use.



Well now, that's nice to know.  I always thought it was me.  My best analogy goes back to math class.  When questioned about why a certain step was taken to solve an equation, the answer always was "It's intuitively obvious".  No, it was not obvious, or I would have done it, right?  Anyway, it seems that I never see problems like the other guy does, so I always come up with a different answer.  Different answers seem to work better in the analog world.  The current state of the digital world is one of extreme tunnel vision.  You either have the answer deemed to be correct by the computer or you are dead wrong and it will not work.  In general, I see CNC as a hassle that I do not need.

But that is no reason for others to not enjoy the benefits of CNC.

Kevin, a person has to be realistic.  I'm finding that as I grow older, my thinking and learning skills are changing.  Things that I used to do for entertainment are now a chore or impossible.  For instance, I have lost the ability to draw up plans.  Some people never have that ability.  I had it and lost it about 30 years ago.  It is much easier to simply make the part, redoing it two or three times as the concept is refined.  I noticed this change somewhere in my mid forties.  Its like my mind has rewired its self several times, starting in my late teens.  

Bill


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## Tony Wells

I am putting on my Administrator hat for a minute or two here. This thread has been a little disappointing to me. First, the subject seems accusatory. It may have been a statement made out of some experience, or just a gut feeling. At any rate, that was only issued as the opinion of one person, and they are entitled to have their opinion, and within limits, express it here. Since it was issued by a CNC proponent, it could hardly be viewed by those who feel otherwise as much less than a challenge to respond to. However, this is not a debate board, nor is it one that encourages discussions that are likely to escalate into one where veiled (or not so veiled) insults and barbs are traded by members. Everyone on board here agreed when they joined to treat everyone with the respect they want from the other members. I believe that one of our most basic tenets has been ignored here. This started out with a bit of a sour note, and went largely downhill from there. 

Once a few people expressed their views that were different, and even in opposition to the original view, some took the next step to virtually accuse them of being against technological advances in machine shops in general, when that was never expressed that I read. So just what was the motivation of those who made such remarks? To instigate further debate, or continue to insult or belittle those with differing views? It seems as though the fact that this is a forum intended primarily for home shop/hobby machinist was set aside, and comparisons were being made between the reasons CNC's exist in commercial shops and those justifying CNC's in the hobby shop. There's really no comparison in the first place. The justification for using them in a commercial shop is obvious; profit. The types of CNC machines used in those shops are different than those home-brewed by the hobbyist for whom the actual building of the machine is half the enjoyment (another key difference between the two shop types). How many of you experienced professionals have seen a for-profit shop spend the time and money to build their own machine from scratch, or even convert a manual machine to CNC. I've never seen it in nearly 40 years. It's simply not a practical part of the commercial machine shop world. On the other hand, for the hobbyist, it can be an integral part of assembling the equipment for the home shop. For multiple reasons. So really, they comparison is not even germane to the original topic.

But back to that. The views held by both schools of thought are both perfectly acceptable and should cause no dissension among our members. There is no reason for this subject to generate any acrimony between members. As far as this being a "CNC in the home shop" sub-forum, it is, but that hardly excludes any member from involving themselves. For myself, I haven't the need for a CNC, but I can discuss them with anyone, and have considerable knowledge of the subject. So do many of the other members who simply are exercising their freedoms to not have a CNC in my shop, whether it's a hobby shop or not, just like I do. They obviously have opinions on this subject and are just as entitled to express them without criticism as anyone else. But I expect everyone to treat all the other members with respect. In fact, I demand it.  

The fact that we even have divided the forum into sections is not to segregate the members into different camps, but to make it easier to find things, and allow specific questions to be posted in an area where people who are knowledgeable about that subject are likely to frequent. That way, the person with a problem, question, or suggestion can get the best response in the shortest time. If it was desired, it is a simple matter to restrict this person or that person to a point where they simply could not access certain areas of the forum. That's not going to happen.

So guys, we won't let this discussion degrade any further. No more bickering on who has what right, or who should or shouldn't do whatever they want in their own shop, for their own reasons. This ends those parts of this discussion. I will delete comments that violate our policies. Our policies are part of the reason people are joining here and leaving other forums where fighting seems to be the norm. It will NOT become the norm here. That I promise.


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## jumps4

jumps4 said:


> these are my reasons and my opinion
> I was scared i was going to waste money i really didnt have on a machine that would be below standard and to complicated to learn.
> so i started researching and found these problems for home cnc
> 1. there is no standard for the terms used by the manufactures of parts, the writers of software and just about every aspect of the building of your own cnc. I'm a auto mechanic and could not imagine a spark plug being called something else because another company made it. so for me to read most any literature on cnc i needed a list of terms and definitions to figure out each sentence. and that list is for just that manufacture. thats a lot of lists
> 2. ok it's killing our economy but without the chinese only the fortune 500 companies can do this and that brings us to translation. this guy in china reads chinese well but does not understand how the sentence translates into a readable english or any language for that matter to form a sentence so lets just pic an english word and put it down. no matter how you read it "cintered canine and crushed paste of yellow zest" is not a "hotdog with mustard"
> 3. wiring. just about anyone mechanical can modify the machine and do a good job , make it accurate with low cost ballscrews because cnc compensates for backlash automaticly when set up properly. the fact is wiring a cnc is as easy as playing with batterys , lightbulbs and switches like you probably did as a kid. here is the catch anyone can connect wire a to terminal b as per the instructions. nope the breakout board instructions say connect a wire from step+ on the breakout board to step+ on the motor controller. what is the controller i have a driver and it does not have the word step on it anywhere. it says pulse. your thinking magic smoke. the fact is the driver is the controller and step and pulse mean the same thing. so wiring now is a nightmare for the same reason as item 1. terms and standards.
> 4 learning the cad and cam programs and their cost. you are not nasa you need a cad software that draws circles squares rectangles ect where you want, then the size you want them, and saves in a dxf format. thats free online everywhere i use emachine shop it is so simple you draw the box and up at the top you say the box is here in x and y and it is this high and that wide thats it. drop a circle on the end delete the unneeded lines an you have a bullet. cam software same thing you want simple and low to no cost. are you really needing a software that cuts 5 axis in full blown 3d i cant even think 5 axis yet.
> i have a bunch of free programs all limited but when you have them all you can do almost everything.
> unless you want to just make scrap you wont write complete programs to finish a complex part in unending steps you very quickly pick the cut from the drawing and tell it the cutter size left right or on center, depth per pass and total depth. run it. thats good pick the next pocket corner and
> continue. It is faster than reading prints mounting rotory tables and turning cranks and it dont get tired. It's working, your on the lathe making something else.
> just my opinion and i guess you can tell i like cnc or anything i can make behave with my pc
> if i could just mount steppers on my wife what a life this would be.
> What Do You Think
> steve


 

this was the topic 6 months ago and it set dormant. it was listing more so, the issues i had to get to where i am today and how crazy doing home cnc can be to understand. part comedy and a chance to start a friendly conversation about your struggles and achievments trying to do the same.
my title was not thought out very well and should not have implied anything, i dont know most machinist
sometimes the thread can get off topic really easy, there was never any comparison of any kind in my original post and a lot of people jump in the middle of a thread and take off in the wrong direction with followers without reading the entire thread ( I'm quilty here )
the point was for those concidering cnc what the challenges may be.
we are a friendly group and things can run away at times but what makes us better is moving on without hard feelings
your all a great bunch of people and i too enjoyed the differences in opinion but we are off topic now
steve


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## OrangeAlpine

I am sorry if I degraded the thread.  I viewed it as an exploration into why some guys are not pursuing that field, so I added my $.02.  My view of the CNC world, if you will.  If that is considered to be off topic, please delete.  That certainly will not bother me as it would not be first time I was off base.  As I stated in an earlier post, I often (seldom?) see issues the same as others.

Bill


----------



## Cuzzun_itt

Kevin45 said:


> When I was in Tool Design, we were always told to make things idiot proof. A term that is not allowed in the shop today. But what CNC has done to a lot of factories, is it got rid of the skilled workers. Shops now can hire anyone off the street that remotely act like they want a job, give them a **** test, a badge and a pair of safety glasses and call them a machinist.
> 
> I don't care what anyone says, and you can't convince me that the person they hired in yesterday and pushes the "Start" button, is a machinist. I have personally watched my shop bring in people, put them behind a machine, then walk away without training. They let them learn by asking other employees, or learning by mistakes.



I prefer the term " Sailor Proof " I can say that because I was a sailor. 

I agree 1000 percent on skilled workers, there are less and less of them. 

I got in the machining industry as an electronic maintenance man just out of the navy. I did avation electroncs. 
OK the real navy was 2nd deck and below. I just worked at the airport. 

I had to repair a tool changer on a vertical machining center a few years ago. Had to replace an air cylinder. In order to get to it
I had to remove a few tools form the magazine.  The operator was an " Advanced Machinest " that was the top payscale on
 the plant floor.

After the repair was complete, I informed the operator that the tools need to be put back. Uh O!! I forgot to write 
down which pockets I took the tools from, My Bad. The operator said " I don't know were those tools go " My response was
" you're kidding " nope, not kidding!! This is the same person that gets paid to set this machine up on new programs. Top pay
on the floor. We lost an entire shift of production because "I" didn't write down where the tools belong. Not the machinist's
responsibility.

As  maintenance man I have spent the better part of 25 years straitening out peoples mistakes that with just a little for thought
could have been prevented. I don't deal with stupidity well at all. 

Once is an accident or not noing any better.
Twice, com'on dude pay more attention.
 3rd time and I'm going to tell them just how the cow ate the cabbage.

So if people that Stupid can make a living running a CNC mill or lathe , I think anyone who is actualy interested in learning to 
operate and program a machine can do it. I know that may offend some people. I just hope none of them are on this forum.

If someone is reading this forum I think they are computer litterate enough to have a CNC in there garage. However that doesn't
mean they need or want one. I also think that a conventional machinist has to be a bonafide machinist. A CNC operator may be, 
but they might not be. 

Sorry I got a little off topic. Off the soap box now

Itt


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## Cuzzun_itt

WOW, I take too long to compose my responses.

 Alot was posted between reading and posting my response. 

I personaly feel that with software and CNC's someone (meaning ME) can do better work because the the software 
figures feeds and speed that I don't know or am too lazy to look up. So I prefer a CNC

By having a CNC I can do much more with it than I could with a manual machine.

One is not better than the other in my opinion.

You are only limited by your imagination no matter which one you have.

I think the biggest fear would be the learnng curve. If you have no experience reading or writing G code it would be a challenge.

Then there is the initial cost. If you are tech savey you could convert a manual to cnc. 

I have no experience with the cost or installation of a retrofit but it could be done I'm sure with some technical skills. I
 wouldn't be afraid of it but would not want the pain of having to fool with it. 

I fix them for a living. I'm afraid my retrofit would be like the mechanic's old jalopy project.

Those are my fears

Itt


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## OrangeAlpine

There seems to be a general feeling that if a person can post on an internet web site, they are capable of converting a machine to CNC, setting up the programs and operating it.  To me, that is like telling a person that because they know how to drive a car, they are able to design, build and drive a race car.  The person is a car user.  I am a computer user.  The qualifications beyond that point are quite similar.

Bill


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## David Kirtley

Bill,

It's really not that bad. Working the control stuff is pretty basic and not that hard to deal with unless you really want to roll up your sleeves and get into it. The programs that take the model and convert it to steps for the machine to take are pretty straight forward as well unless you want to tweak things. You just tell it what kind of tool you have in the machine and push the button and go. Most have pre-set information like cutting speeds and cut depths for different materials built in.  

The bigger learning curve is designing the model for the part. Most is pretty cumbersome because they really aren't designed to create the parts manually. They have programming tools built in to automate the creation of parts by filling out some specifications rather than manually drawing them out. The fancy name is parametric modeling. You go into some drafting program like Autocad or Pro-E or some such, and it becomes fill in the blanks for differences in standard parts for a particular job. An architect doesn't go in and draw each stair part. They tell it to to make stairs that go from here to here. They also have a lot of stuff in to optimize production like nesting, where you can tell it to fit as many as you can on a piece of material "This big." 

For simple jobs, many people program it directly. The commands are really simple. Go to point A. Move the tool down this high and move to point B. Pick up the tool. Move in a circle with such and such radius. Move between points A B and C and then move the cutter X amount and repeat 10 times. That kind of stuff. Basically just like a recipe. Of course this can get tedious for really complex parts.

You can also just use parts that other people create. Many manufacturers give out cad models of parts that they sell for designers to use in creating their own stuff. As an example, you can go over to 80/20 inc. that makes Aluminum extrusions and they have the design files for their products. That way you can make a model and use theirs to create parts that work with it. There are also sites like Thingiverse and SketchUp 3D Warehouse where people contribute their models for others to share.

There is a learning curve but it is not as steep as you might think. It is kind of like using a word processor where it has a gazillion functions available but you can do 95% of what you want it just by knowing some of them.


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## amajusiakjr

I have a very strong manual background and tried my best to avoid CNC machines for several reasons....mostly because cnc wasn't in my vocational school til the last 3 months of my senior year and the instructors had no idea what they were doing because they were manual machinists. After watching these 2 instructors fumble through a demo or two, I figured there was no way I would ever understand or be able to program. I avoided CNC at all cost. After finally breaking down and taking a few classes at our local community college, I found CNC to be a lot of fun. Its starting to take over any relaxing down time with trying to teach myself Bobcad/Bobart/Predator editor/Predator Virtual cnc...

I have some manual home shop machines ie..rf45 type manual mill and a 12x36 gear head gap bed manual lathe. I would love to convert them over to cnc but because I spent all these years avoiding CNC I have no idea how to convert these machines. I read the posts on this site and a couple others and I understand every cocncept of why each step was done. When it comes to all the electronics though...completely lost and have no idea what to buy and how to hook it up properly and get the whole shabang running to the best of its ability.

Stuff like this make me wish someone would just right the detailed instructional book on it and I could go from there. With my luck I would buy everything hook it up and while testing it it'll fly out of my garage creating a huge whole in the wall , land in the middle of the street, blow sky high and euthenize a neighbors pet...

So, I agree with everyone on this post and have my own reasons why I haven't converted.

Maybe someday I can do it...but as of now...I'll say it, I am scared to try and convert without completely destroying machines that work...


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## Round in circles

jumps4 said:


> these are my reasons and my opinion
> I was scared i was going to waste money i really didnt have on a machine that would be below standard and to complicated to learn.
> so i started researching and found these problems for home cnc
> 1. there is no standard for the terms used by the manufactures of parts, the writers of software and just about every aspect of the building of your own cnc. I'm a auto mechanic and could not imagine a spark plug being called something else because another company made it. so for me to read most any literature on cnc i needed a list of terms and definitions to figure out each sentence. and that list is for just that manufacture. thats a lot of lists
> 2. ok it's killing our economy but without the chinese only the fortune 500 companies can do this and that brings us to translation. this guy in china reads chinese well but does not understand how the sentence translates into a readable english or any language for that matter to form a sentence so lets just pic an english word and put it down. no matter how you read it "cintered canine and crushed paste of yellow zest" is not a "hotdog with mustard"
> 3. wiring. just about anyone mechanical can modify the machine and do a good job , make it accurate with low cost ballscrews because cnc compensates for backlash automaticly when set up properly. the fact is wiring a cnc is as easy as playing with batterys , lightbulbs and switches like you probably did as a kid. here is the catch anyone can connect wire a to terminal b as per the instructions. nope the breakout board instructions say connect a wire from step+ on the breakout board to step+ on the motor controller. what is the controller i have a driver and it does not have the word step on it anywhere. it says pulse. your thinking magic smoke. the fact is the driver is the controller and step and pulse mean the same thing. so wiring now is a nightmare for the same reason as item 1. terms and standards.
> 4 learning the cad and cam programs and their cost. you are not nasa you need a cad software that draws circles squares rectangles ect where you want, then the size you want them, and saves in a dxf format. thats free online everywhere i use emachine shop it is so simple you draw the box and up at the top you say the box is here in x and y and it is this high and that wide thats it. drop a circle on the end delete the unneeded lines an you have a bullet. cam software same thing you want simple and low to no cost. are you really needing a software that cuts 5 axis in full blown 3d i cant even think 5 axis yet.
> i have a bunch of free programs all limited but when you have them all you can do almost everything.
> unless you want to just make scrap you wont write complete programs to finish a complex part in unending steps you very quickly pick the cut from the drawing and tell it the cutter size left right or on center, depth per pass and total depth. run it. thats good pick the next pocket corner and
> continue. It is faster than reading prints mounting rotory tables and turning cranks and it dont get tired. It's working, your on the lathe making something else.
> just my opinion and i guess you can tell i like cnc or anything i can make behave with my pc
> if i could just mount steppers on my wife what a life this would be.
> What Do You Think
> steve




 Ah ... Do I have the right steppers?
Steppers depending on your wife's age , " Red 6 inch high heel steppers & a big bunch of flowers " works well for cooperation in almost any room in the house so long as the kids are miles away , all phones etc. are switched off & no once can see in through the windows.


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## Whyemier

No, I really don't. ondering:

I prefer to do it the way I did it in the past (old guy I guess, 64).  Its what I'm used to and it suits me. :noidea: I can see the advantages of CNC but don't need it for what I do.  

I could use a good Quill DRO though just for repeat cuts on my mill.  That would be handy. :ideas:


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## Kevin45

CNC shouldn't be scary as some have mentioned, but it can be very intimidating, especially when things don't go the way you want them to. And the first thing that comes to everyone's mind is "WRECK". If I program it wrong, I'm going to wreck it. And I've been there. The last 15 years that I was working before going on disability, I ran ProtoTraks, and they were programmed in "Conversational" mode. It took about a week to learn that, and a few more weeks to learn some tips and tricks. After going on disability, I knew that I would need something to do around the house to prevent boredom, and since I have ran machines almost all of my life, I bought a mill and a lathe.....both standard, not CNC. Last year I ran aross a B.P. Series 1 CNC. It had been 15+ years since I have programmed using G & M codes. But after reading some of the manuals, slowly things were coming back. It's a personal thing, but I like to program by hand, just to keep the gray matter in the old noggin' sharpened up a little.

But don't be afraid of CNC, or get "intimidated" by CNC. Once you learn the programming basics of CNC, it opens up a whole new world, especially for the home machinist. It saves a lot of time, but it allows you to machine some pretty cool stuff that you normally can't with standard equipment. Machining a half of a ball that is accurate in size is great, although you may have to do a little sanding. And it helps to hone your computer skills, it helps to hone your design skills, and so on. A three axis CNC takes an idea from inside your mind to an actual 3 dimensional part. Something that you can't normally do on standard equipment. And if you have a CAD program that will operate with your CNC, that is just an added bonus.

As far as being scared of CNC, or intimidated by CNC, there is not one person on here that ever regretted learning to run CNC, and not one person on here that has not wrecked a CNC either. It happens, and I've been there on a few occasions myself. The worst part of it is the big red button disappears when the endmill starts to bury itself somewhere that it is not supposed to go. LOL!!!!! But if you have a chance to learn CNC, to get a good deal and buy a CNC, and think that you may possibly like the idea of having one.......then GO FOR IT!!!!. Don't be afraid, don't be intimidated, and lower the table before you hit the "GO" button. LOL!!!  One you go to CNC, you'll always go with a CNC every chance you get. It opens up all sorts of avenues to travel down.


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## alloy

Keven45:  All of us that have run a CNC for more than a very short time have crashed one. I did it yesterday.  Our programmer made a small change in a program and I uploaded it without out checking it since i was a 115 minute run and just a small change he made.  My fault, I should have baby sited it all the way through.    On wrong number or decimal point in a 10,000 line program and it's all she wrote. So I always run a new program with the rapids turned down to 25% 

Clearly CNC isn't for everyone. I run CNC's all day at work, and have a Bridgeport manual mill at home.  I do transmission mods on parts that are irreplaceable and one slip on the manual and I've got a very upset customer.

I just picked up a pretty large knee mill that had an outdated control on it and Jim Dawson and I (mostly Jim) are going to put an updated control on it.  What takes me almost four hours on my manual will take about 1 hour on a CNC.  I just picked up a volume customer for my mods and he said he'd bring me 10 to 20 housings at a time to modify.  Well after working four or five 10 hour days at my regular job it's going to take me weeks do do that many on my manual.  So for me CNC is the answer if I'm going to grow my small business. I had a CNC job shop years ago and built it from one manual mill to four CNC's.  I did it once and I can do it again.  I'm older now, more experience, but not necessarily smarter though.

I'd say assess your needs, if a CNC will save you time and get you where you want then go for it.  If your smart enough to make chips with a manual then you probably have what it takes to go CNC.  It just depends on how much you want it if you will be successful at it.


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## JimDawson

+1 what both Kevin45 and Alloy said


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## bpratl

I just finished converting my lathe to CNC, which is working great, and I am presently in the process of converting my mill to 4 axis CNC. I can not justify going to CNC, as alloy has, because I do not make any production parts as I am a Hobby Machinist and only make custom parts and specialty tools for my Automotive Repair business. I have always had a profound interest in electronics, programing and machines so combining the three make for a lot of learning and fun. Converting to CNC has taught me a lot and increased my machining skills. I also gained a lot more confidence in fabricating complex parts. Bob


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## coolidge

alloy said:


> Keven45:  All of us that have run a CNC for more than a very short time have crashed one.



Not me, I have several years running CNC machines and zero crashes. My brother has run his Haas and Mori lathes and mills for 18+ years...zero crashes. Its altogether possible to run CNC machines without crashing them. Knowing the thousands of dollars to fix them will come out of your own pocket helps. He did have a bolt snap on a Haas tool carousel once, the entire carousel fell off CRASH...while he was taking a dump that was some hilarity. lol


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## JimDawson

coolidge said:


> Not me, I have several years running CNC machines and zero crashes. My brother has run his Haas and Mori lathes and mills for 18+ years...zero crashes. Its altogether possible to run CNC machines without crashing them. Knowing the thousands of dollars to fix them will come out of your own pocket helps. He did have a bolt snap on a Haas tool carousel once, the entire carousel fell off CRASH...while he was taking a dump that was some hilarity. lol




You live a charmed life.  I would go buy lottery tickets.


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## RJSakowski

I have owned a mill/drill for thirty years and have had a DRO on it for ten.  When I retired, I bought a Tormach PCNC770; largely because it allowed me to machine parts that could not be done any other way.  I have had it for three years now.  I use SolidWorks for CAD, SprutCAM and HMS Express for g code generation, and Mach 3 for machine control.

There are obvious pros for a hobbyist CNC.  You can machine complex shapes that cannot be done otherwise.  You can easily produce multiple parts and the consistency is generally improved over manually produced parts.  You can walk away (sort of) during machining although without an ATC, it is usually not for very long.

Cons? It oftentimes takes longer to generate the G code than to machine the part.  When typing a letter, a typo just puts a red line in.  A typo in a G code program can be disastrous. 

CNC's are dumb.  They don't care if fixtures are in their path  or if you forgot to set up your tool heights in the right coordinate system.  A crash can destroy your part, the tool, or your machine in an instant.  If using a CNC manually, you don't have the tactile feedback that you have with a conventional mill.  It is easy to overload a tool.

I have worked with a number of job shop vendors who keep a Bridgeport around for one-off jobs.  One had four Haas VMC's and his most recent acquisition was a Bridgeport.  Another had two machining centers which he sold when the recession hit, replacing them with three Bridgeports.

Bottom line? I like my CNC and would not give it up because of the additional capabilities it provides.  But I think that there is value in starting with a manual machine and gaining the experience.  If you need the additional capability, go for it then.


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## coolidge

JimDawson said:


> You live a charmed life.  I would go buy lottery tickets.



Jim its the manual machines that are crash prone, my manual lathe went GRRRAAAAHHHHH about an hour after I started using it. (face palm)


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## T Bredehoft

I've just read this entire thread, and wish to add my two cents worth.

I worked 28 years as a Tool Maker (capitalized, I have a Journeman's card) the last eight or 10 years I was exposed to CNC, first through coding, M and G, then through Mazak and their wonderful software and machines. I personally prefer G codes.  I've written hundreds, possibly thousands of programs standing at the machine, punching in the codes. reading from a blue print for data. I wrote many many subroutines, which I could call up.

I retired in 2000 at 62, and find now that I miss the adventure of work. I have a tiny lathe (Atlas Clausing 3950) and hope to soon get a PM25  mill. I hope to have CNC on it eventually, because I can make true smooth curves with CNC that I can't do by hand. Programming will be by G code, though, No point in drawing a picture and having the machine write the code. I can do that. Below, if I can get a picture on here is a Lucite plate I made in preparation for a bronze plaque for a machine. It's 6 1/4 inches wide, 3 1/4 inches tall. I programmed the logo and each individual letter, installing them on the machine as subroutines, all done with G codes. I could then call each letter up by its Ascii no.




I'm proud of my programming skills, hope to be able to use them in the future, but as long as I can get a mill and make chips, I guess I'll be happy.

Tom


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## dracozny

My Z axis on my Mill is currently under CNC. My main reason for converting was for accuracy. turning dials vs just punching the coordinates in on the machine. I have eliminated a lot of error on my part as well as the machines even if I am just entering MDI commands. I'm loving canned cycles!


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## hermetic

I build machines, very rarely are two alike, and I am not a model maker. I do not want cnc, and wouldnt buy it even if I could afford it. By the time I have programmed a cnc, then set it up with the stock to make a single part, I have made that part on a manual machine, and fitted it. I have 2 lathes, both pre 1970, two mills, and a nice shaper. Probably the biggest reason why I don't want it is that I am simply not interested in the concept of cnc, and If my shop was full of cnc machines, I would have no reason to go there, and would not love what I do as much as I do now.
Phil


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## coolidge

hermetic said:


> I build machines, very rarely are two alike, and I am not a model maker. I do not want cnc, and wouldnt buy it even if I could afford it. By the time I have programmed a cnc, then set it up with the stock to make a single part, I have made that part on a manual machine, and fitted it. I have 2 lathes, both pre 1970, two mills, and a nice shaper. Probably the biggest reason why I don't want it is that I am simply not interested in the concept of cnc, and If my shop was full of cnc machines, I would have no reason to go there, and would not love what I do as much as I do now.
> Phil



So you know nothing about modern CNC you have no experience with it but you are confident you can out produce them on manual machines?


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## Holescreek

coolidge said:


> So you know nothing about modern CNC you have no experience with it but you are confident you can out produce them on manual machines?


 
I didn't see anything in his statement that said he could out produce a CNC machine, just that he wouldn't get any enjoyment from them.



A few months ago I made a comment that something took too much time and another member replied that as hobbyists, time is unimportant. (Of course he was wrong, but I didn't say so)
I machined professionally for several decades, started on manual machines but eventually transitioned to NC with punched paper tape controls and so on until CNC came along and saved us all from having to learn how to work manually.

I'm no longer in the trade, lucky enough to have gotten out before wages took a dump as the era of full time button pushers was ushered in.  I have a pretty nice home shop and even have a 4 axis CNC mill I built myself.  I rarely ever turn the CNC mill on unless I have a production job that warrants it (I still do side work now and then), and then only if I have something interesting to work on while it's running. I actually prefer using one of my Bridgeports and all those pesky accessories (rotary table, dividing head etc.) that make machining interesting and not just a "job".

Don't get me wrong, I know how important CNC is for shops to make money and fully support the idea of making a good living. What I don't get is why so many home hobbyists feel the need for a CNC machine when many of them don't know how to make parts manually.

I do like being able to engrave text. The CNC beats the heck out of trying to find room for a big engraving machine!


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## coolidge

Holescreek said:


> I do like being able to engrave text. The CNC beats the heck out of trying to find room for a big engraving machine!



I use a company called Front Panel Express in Washington state, its a pretty cool niche business. They wrote their own CAD software which they provide for free to customers, even the cost quotes are built in its pretty slick.

Oh Bill...the front panel of your 12z ^^^


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## JimDawson

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Eddyde

The CNC naysayers remind me of the arguments I heard in the early 90's, when I bought my first computer and cellphone.


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## Bill Gruby

I read the last post with a little chuckle. It makes it sound like you really have to have these things to live, you don't. I still don't own a cell phone. What I have to say to someone can wait till I get home. I only have this computer because it was given to me. Yes, it has improved my life. I don't need a CNC machine either. I don't need one. Someone also said that time is important, it isn't. The person that told him. as a hobby machinist time doesn't mean anything was RIGHT, not wrong. If you need something made by me and you tell me when you need it by, I will promptly tell you to take it somewhere else. I no longer punch a clock.

 I am not against technology, I just don't need a lot of the new things. Yes, as far as CNC goes for me, I am a naysayer. But that is using it for me, it has it's place. That place just isn't here in my shop and that's the way it is, period.

 "Billy G"


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## Billh50

I have run manual machines all my life except for at one job. They had a Proto-Trak there that no one used. I took it upon myself to play with it in my spare time, which I had a lot of at that job. It was real easy to learn because it was conversational although there were a few things you had to know that were not always on a blueprint. That's where having cad came in. But as far as other cnc machines I have seen some very costly crashes happen when someone misses something in their program. I could not afford a crash so will stay with manual machines. Unless someone happens to have an old proto trak they are giving away.


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## hermetic

Hi Jimdawson , TBH I rarely maake anything with geometry that is all that complex, or that requires the critical perfection obtainable on CNC. I enjoy operating machines, not standing by and watching them operate. Whichever way you look at it, CNC is not an advance from the skill point of view, though it might be from the time and cost point of view, unless you work in the huge cost of modern cnc machines. I anm certainly no luddite, I have been on the internet since 1996 and have used computers since the ZX spectrum, and used to program, write pure html etc etc I enjoy driving cars, I used to race them when I was younger, but I would not be at all interested in a car that drove itself. I agree with Bill.
Phil


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## coolidge

Billh50 said:


> I have run manual machines all my life except for at one job. They had a Proto-Trak there that no one used. I took it upon myself to play with it in my spare time, which I had a lot of at that job. It was real easy to learn because it was conversational although there were a few things you had to know that were not always on a blueprint. That's where having cad came in. But as far as other cnc machines I have seen some very costly crashes happen when someone misses something in their program. I could not afford a crash so will stay with manual machines. Unless someone happens to have an old proto trak they are giving away.



There is zero reason to crash a CNC machine due to the program, ever. It happens but its not the fault of the program. A newly written CNC program can have a programming error that will crash a machine yes, that's why new programs are proofed by an experienced operator, at a much reduced speed with the operator reading and understanding the G code the machine is about to execute next to avoid crashing the machine. If a shop allows some inexperienced knucklehead to run a new program and the guy just hits the green button and stands back allowing the machine to crash well...that's not the fault of the CNC program.

I learned on large CNC lathes the size of a small car with 50lb chuck jaws and parts weighing a few hundred pounds. Not wanting to take a 50lb chuck jaw in the teeth it was simple enough to go slow on the first part, control the machine, and once the program was proofed I could let her fly at full speed the rest of my shift.

Crashes can be very costly indeed and I think your point is valid certainly for smaller shops that don't have deep pockets, can they afford a crash? That's real world.


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## Chiptosser

This is a topic that will not end!
I have seen it sense the late 70's and it is still going on.
The old timers as we called them,then  and management had a problem with the new way to do things. CNC
Yes, I have a rotary table, indexer, ect, ect,and so on.
Yes, I have a cnc mill.  I use the mill in manual and cnc control.
Believe me, I know the advantages of using manual machines verses controlled machines and vise versa.

But lets not close our Eyes, and influence new comers, its like bad habits,  they are easily learned and passed on.

Cnc, has change greatly over the years and new systems are very easy to learn and use in a short time.
Even if time is not and issue, there is skill needed, for any method used to do a job.
Some methods produce nicer results , more accurately . It just depends on, where you are skilled.
You will never, compete with a cnc machine for flexibility!   It is how it is.  There will always be manual machines,
and equipment.  I believe in learning to do things the old way, the hard way!  Learn how to be a machinist, learn the feel of a machine,
 Yes every machine has its own feel.  If you learn the basic's and how to use all the different accessories use to do different operations,
 You will be ahead of the game. Then you will greatly appreciate the application of Cnc.


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## alloy

coolidge said:


> There is zero reason to crash a CNC machine due to the program, ever. It happens but its not the fault of the program. A newly written CNC program can have a programming error that will crash a machine yes, that's why new programs are proofed by an experienced operator, at a much reduced speed with the operator reading and understanding the G code the machine is about to execute next to avoid crashing the machine.crash?



I was going to stay out of this thread and watch and see how it plays out.  But I have to respond to this.

I have 6 VMC's I set up and run.  Our programmer made one very small change in a program so long I have to DNC it.  The run time on this programs is well over an hour.  I reloaded the program and about 45 mins into it the tool holder hit the part because he typed in just one wrong number.

I can't let my other 5 machines sit while I watch this one machine especially when our programmer said it's good to go.  If I did I wouldn't be working there very long. I've been told to trust the programmer and 99% of the time all is well.  He made a mistake, we all do from time to time.

I think this thread will be ongoing pretty much forever. There are so many opinions for and against CNC.  I need it, you may not.  I have manual machines but the bottom line is  I can't match the production rate of a CNC with my manual.  I just picked up a new customer and he showed me a cargo container full of transmissions all needing my attention.  It would take a very very long time to do them all with my manual.  I would do maybe 3-4 a week, and with CNC I can do that many a night after work each day.  For me it's what I need to do if I ever have a chance keeping up with the work I have.  If I cant get the parts out in a timely manner, my customer will go elsewhere.

For me it business pure and simple.I stay small or go bigger. I love making and designing new things and seeing the look on my customers faces when they get their hot rod going with my trans conversion it it.  I've just helped them complete their dream ride. As of now I've helped over 400 people with their projects. Feels good to know I've had a part in that many hot rods and I have customers all over the world.  I just sent one back to Germany.

And with the CNC mill I just picked up I have lots of ideas for new products I can make.  That's my dream.  It also funds my hot rod projects and allows me to buy new big boy toys


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## Billh50

I have nothing against a cnc....just not the kind of money I can see spending for a hobby. I do know there are many things that would be a lot easier and less time consuming with a cnc. But unless a hobbyist has a lot of money to spend he won't be using a cnc. It's a lot easier to spend a little here and a little there for tooling as needed than to spend a good amount on a cnc. After all this is HOBBY MACHINIST.


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## Bill Gruby

Please take a moment here and reread the title. It insinuates nothing about whether manual is better or vise versa. It is stating a reason why the OP thinks some won't use CNC. Let's try to get back to basics here.

 It states the word afraid. I am not afraid of CNC, nor to I condemn it. I don't state that it is the program that does the work, not the operator. Who or what does it is not the issue. The issue is why some don't want it.

 I don't run production in my home shop so I don't need CNC to make my parts. I can do them manually and have the time. If I don't need something, why buy it, plain and simple. This is not to say in the future I may need one. I need to make some molds for forming Carbon Fiber airplane parts. A CNC Router table would help and I know where there is one that I can use.

 You are discussing the wrong argument. No individual can be wrong here. Any answer is the right answer.

 "Billy G"


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## Chiptosser

There are a lot of used cnc machinery out there now.   The cost is not all that much different, if you ad up all the accessories needed for manual operation.   That is buying a used machine that is good, not something that you buy for a grand and then spend a year, rebuilding and collecting tooling.  
  I have seen a change in perspective over the last 10 years toward cnc for the hobbyist.
Look at all the people wanting to convert their mini lathe's and mills.
The newer generation, is more computer oriented.
 I have talked to many newer machinist and hobbyist, they are interested in the Cnc arena. It is just the changing times.
I am a hobbyist, too, that is how I started.  I couldn't afford to pay others to make everything that I wanted to be made.

One of the big things with one end mill, say a 1/4 ball end, there are more shapes that can be machined in one set-up than you
may ever imagine. +A lot of people go for a hobby in the cnc field  to starting a business. +
Just wait for the 3D printing to com full bore.


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## coolidge

alloy said:


> I was going to stay out of this thread and watch and see how it plays out.  But I have to respond to this. I have 6 VMC's I set up and run.  Our programmer made one very small change in a program so long I have to DNC it.  The run time on this programs is well over an hour.  I reloaded the program and about 45 mins into it the tool holder hit the part because he typed in just one wrong number.



LOL what did I just get through saying, you can't do that. You rolled the dice and lost. Hopefully you didn't blame him for your mistake. Would you use tax prep software that wasn't tested mail your return off to the IRS and just hope it was correct?  I'm a software engineer, as a director I lead an entire team of software developers across multiple concurrent projects. I don't care how good they are and I have some exceptionally gifted programmers, they all make mistakes hence the reason for testing.

I don't know what type of CAM software you are using but the better software will let you simulate your hour long program in just a few minutes catching some of these crashes before they happen. Unfortunately the better cad/cam software can cost in excess of $40k.

Now no amount of caution will fix genuine stupid, take me for example I once ran a CNC program with the spindle turning backwards, stood there cussing/blaming my new end mill while smoke was bellowing out of the machined slot. DOH!


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## jumps4

I am no machinist and too short minded to make most of the things I make without CNC.
I own an older manual mill that is sitting under plastic and hasn't been on in years.
I use my cnc mill for everything. 
It would have cost far more to purchase a good DRO, power feeds and other required equipment than to cnc my mill.
I use the monitor as a DRO and set feeds and speeds with a button
the majority of what i do on my mill is not with a written program but by a pendent moving to the needed location.
I can type in where I want to be, hit enter and the machine puts me there always remembering where part "0" location is.
just because it is a cnc machine does lot mean it looses manual functions, I just don't turn cranks, I push buttons or type in a line of code to perform a function where I wish to have it performed.
If I need a hole or pocket in in a part, I draw a circle that size (or any shape). In d2nc I tell it how deep, what size cutter and the material.
I center above the location setting Z zero and hit enter.
If I have a lot of holes to drill in different locations I use the drawing, tell d2nc all circles are drill points and every time i hit enter I move to the next location automatically. just change bits and drill holes. 
with my back every time I don't have to pack up a rotary table the longer I will be able to continue my hobby.
with just a few free or low cost software I can make things I could never make with my manual mill.
my total investment in software to do what I do is less than $500 including Mach3, D2NC and Emachineshop was free.
The more I use my machines, the more respect I have for tool and die makers and what they have accomplished over the years.
I also have a cnc lathe and for most things I'm on the manual lathe it's much faster for one offs but can be run with the pendent just the same.
Steve


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## markknx

Steve I am one that is a little shy of CNC. I have had no luck getting libreCad to draw anything the way I want it to look, I did a little better playing with sketchup. I am contemplating upgrading my mill latter this year or early next so if I do not get CNC down To do it now it will have to be addon later. or when I retire and get a bigger shop.(bigger machines too if I feel the need) CNC plasma cutter is on the need more space first. Funny Part is I used to run and some times program parts on a CNC angle line (made by Angle Mster out of Little Rock, AK) but tha was very simple X, Y, Z, for punches and drills. Might help it I saw the programming process being performed.
Mark


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## jumps4

markknx said:


> Steve I am one that is a little shy of CNC. I have had no luck getting libreCad to draw anything the way I want it to look, I did a little better playing with sketchup. I am contemplating upgrading my mill latter this year or early next so if I do not get CNC down To do it now it will have to be addon later. or when I retire and get a bigger shop.(bigger machines too if I feel the need) CNC plasma cutter is on the need more space first. Funny Part is I used to run and some times program parts on a CNC angle line (made by Angle Mster out of Little Rock, AK) but tha was very simple X, Y, Z, for punches and drills. Might help it I saw the programming process being performed.
> Mark



I have a section showing some of how I'm doing it, I haven't added any in a while and I need to show how I use the machines without full blown cad drawings. but if your interested it is here http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/cnc-from-sketch-to-part-the-way-i-do-it.19633/
Steve


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## alloy

I took a calculated risk  because that's what I'm told to do. I didn't lose at all.  Took 10 minutes to recover from it. 

If I stood at the one machine for the entire 115 minute part run to prove out he changes I'd lose 575 minutes of run time on the other 5 machines.  At $120 per hour shop time, the $45 end mill I lost was cheap. 

With your being a software engineer you probably haven't experienced a shop environment like we have.  We are slammed so we do what we have to in order to get the best possible parts out on time and safely.  


There is no one to blame. I simply found the bad line, made the correction, and told our programmer what change to make to correct the mistake.


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## markknx

Thank you steve. I just whatched the first video. You make it look so easy so I am sure I can at least figure it out if I try. Is there a way to have CNC and crank the handles?


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## coolidge

alloy said:


> With your being a software engineer you probably haven't experienced a shop environment like we have.  We are slammed so we do what we have to in order to get the best possible parts out on time and safely.



Brother I did my 2 years sweating in a CNC tin building when I was younger man, we ran three shifts. I graduated to the Mori turning the big stainless stuff after a few months. Man that place was filthy 90% of what we machined was cast iron. Nasty as the place was...it was good times. The engineering dept pulled me out of there after 2 years and I have been polishing an office chair with my butt since.


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## Chiptosser

Markknx,      There are a lot of mills that allow you to turn off the servo motors and let you to manually operate the machine.  Lathes and mills both,in the toolroom categories.   This allows you to learn as you go.


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## JimDawson

markknx said:


> Is there a way to have CNC and crank the handles?




I can switch my mill back and forth between manual and CNC with the flick of a lever and a switch.   So yes it's very doable.
.


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## David Kirtley

I think the fear goes the other way in a hobby setting.  It is related to the concept of Workmanship of Risk.   Many people go with CNC because they are afraid of losing a part. They don't want to go through the jigsaw puzzle of manual setups. Building jigs, and fixtures. Some complicated projects could take weeks to build parts for and then to trash the part from some mistake? 

It also is a question of the focus of the activity: The product or the process.


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## dracozny

markknx said:


> Thank you steve. I just whatched the first video. You make it look so easy so I am sure I can at least figure it out if I try. Is there a way to have CNC and crank the handles?


many would just use the MPG to crank whichever axis needs to move. Though with the MDI the MPG is really just to zero out the part. you could have handles on each axis instead, a few people do that, IMO it's only good for when the machine is powered down.


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## Bishop

I have both a manual mill and a CNC mill and use whichever floats my boat that day. I have designed parts in CAD, generated the Gcode, uploaded that to a thumb drive and then walked out to the shop and built the part on my manual mill  For me it's all just a hobby though and I really enjoy the learning as much or more than the making. 

Shawn


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## Eddyde

Bill Gruby said:


> I read the last post with a little chuckle. It makes it sound like you really have to have these things to live, you don't. I still don't own a cell phone. What I have to say to someone can wait till I get home. I only have this computer because it was given to me. Yes, it has improved my life. I don't need a CNC machine either. I don't need one. Someone also said that time is important, it isn't. The person that told him. as a hobby machinist time doesn't mean anything was RIGHT, not wrong. If you need something made by me and you tell me when you need it by, I will promptly tell you to take it somewhere else. I no longer punch a clock.
> 
> I am not against technology, I just don't need a lot of the new things. Yes, as far as CNC goes for me, I am a naysayer. But that is using it for me, it has it's place. That place just isn't here in my shop and that's the way it is, period.
> 
> "Billy G"


To be clear, I don't think there is anything wrong with not owning a cellphone, computer or staying with all manual machines. That's a personal choice, if it works for you, thats great. However, I don't assume to know everyones needs. You say "It makes it sound like you really have to have these things to live, you don't" While that may technically true, I think it moot as one can argue away 'what is really necessary to live' all the way back to the stone age. I do need those things, to conduct my livelihood and support the lifestyle that is my personal choice. Remember, the whole point of machines is to reduce human effort and make life easier.


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## Bill Gruby

You made my point. No one person can say what is right for another. The only thing gained by this entire thread is to let everyone speak their mind.

 "Billy G"


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## Whyemier

Once again into the fray....
Just some support for Bill since he seems to be holding the line much on his own. 

I have nothing agains technology, I work with computors and I use to assemble them out of 'components' when I was younger.also  I do own a cell phone but will often forget it at home unless the wife comes down on me since she couldn't call me when something comes up. Still, nothing against cell phones I do use them and have found they are useful...sometimes. I even text (whoopie) more than I make voice calls.

Evenso, like Bill, I have no need of a CNC machine. I have always prided myself on the success or often failure of a machined project because either one of those outcomes is from me. It is my success or failure and my skill not a computors.  Jim Dawson has a good point, time is involved in machining complex one off parts. But that's part of it and like Bill, when I'm machining (in most cases) time is not the critical factor. There is the challenge of setting up and machining all those 'blended arcs' and getting them correct on my own in my own time frame. Might even involve some 'hand work'.
Do I hate CNC, no not at all, it has it's place and have seen the meticulous/beautiful work y'all have turned out and I even envy it...sometimes.     More power to ya! Have at it and enjoy what you do however you do it but...I have no need of a CNC driven machine. It takes me longer but if I'm meticulous myself and pay attention to my precision, I'll make the parts


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## jumps4

markknx said:


> Thank you steve. I just whatched the first video. You make it look so easy so I am sure I can at least figure it out if I try. Is there a way to have CNC and crank the handles?


Sorry I didn't get right back e-mail shut down again I think, yesterday it worked great...
 Yes you can have motors with duel shafts but a pendent makes it easier. To use the cranks you would have to turn the power off to the motors and then you would loose the ability to use the screen as a dro.
Maybe if I have time I'll make a video showing something being made using the mill without a drawing,  just using lines and circles and the pendent. I'll see if the next thing I make is interesting enough to video. you don't have to know everything about cad and cam to start using the machine.
Steve


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## dracozny

jumps4 said:


> Sorry I didn't get right back e-mail shut down again I think, yesterday it worked great...
> Yes you can have motors with duel shafts but a pendent makes it easier. To use the cranks you would have to turn the power off to the motors and then you would loose the ability to use the screen as a dro.
> Maybe if I have time I'll make a video showing something being made using the mill without a drawing,  just using lines and circles and the pendent. I'll see if the next thing I make is interesting enough to video. you don't have to know everything about cad and cam to start using the machine.
> Steve


in Linuxcnc I can press the stop button and the motors will be off but it will continue to read the encoders.


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## jumps4

most steppers don't have encoders but some of the newer ones now do.
my motors are braking when the power is on so turning them would not show up as motion on the screen.
steve


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## David Kirtley

Whether you can use a CNC machine manually also depends on what kind of drive it has. If you have a ball screw, most likely the pitch of the screw will make manual operations pretty useless except for just moving to a general area.

In general though, the more things change, the more they remain the same. The people that do hand work vs. the people that use machines. Shapers vs. Milling machines. Hand turning on a lathe vs screw guided tooling. Manual vs CNC.  We get a process that will create a product with the tools we are used to using. A new way comes along to to the same part and we can chose to use the new way or stay with what we know works. If both ways work, then it amounts merely to preference.


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## markknx

jumps4 said:


> Sorry I didn't get right back e-mail shut down again I think, yesterday it worked great...
> Yes you can have motors with duel shafts but a pendent makes it easier. To use the cranks you would have to turn the power off to the motors and then you would loose the ability to use the screen as a dro.
> Maybe if I have time I'll make a video showing something being made using the mill without a drawing,  just using lines and circles and the pendent. I'll see if the next thing I make is interesting enough to video. you don't have to know everything about cad and cam to start using the machine.
> Steve


I was just watching a tormach video and they had what looked like a round mouse the operator was running his finger around it as if cranking with his finger. I am guessing he just chose an axis and cranked. A simple push button penant would also work. The only reason I asked about a means of manual operation  is some things are easier/quicker to just do by hand. Like if you are just cleaning something up and you want to takeas little off as possible. it would be kind of a pain to program a part just to do this then have to run it 3 times. So I really think a penant would be just the same as running with a power feed, and that is what I would be looking for thanks Mark


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## bpratl

I just added a wireless Pendant to my lathe and after a lot of finagling I got close to replicating manual control with .0001" per click of the MPG.
This makes it easy to take a few thousands off a part without programing. I only wish that the pendant had two MPG controls, one for X and the other for Z,  instead of switching the rotary switch to X or Z. It is too easy to screw up a part when forgetting to switch axis.Test Like anything else it is just a matter of getting use to it. Between the mach3 wizards and the Pendant it is pretty close to having full manual control. I was lost and confused before adding the pendant. Bob


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## dracozny

jumps4 said:


> most steppers don't have encoders but some of the newer ones now do.
> my motors are braking when the power is on so turning them would not show up as motion on the screen.
> steve


Servo systems use encoders. in some cases resolvers. alternatively some builders use linear encoders on each axis regardless of motor type.
I run Servos with rotary encoders, hence my earlier comment.


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## dracozny

bpratl said:


> I just added a wireless Pendant to my lathe and after a lot of finagling I got close to replicating manual control with .0001" per click of the MPG.
> This makes it easy to take a few thousands off a part without programing. I only wish that the pendant had two MPG controls, one for X and the other for Z,  instead of switching the rotary switch to X or Z. It is too easy to screw up a part when forgetting to switch axis.Test Like anything else it is just a matter of getting use to it. Between the mach3 wizards and the Pendant it is pretty close to having full manual control. I was lost and confused before adding the pendant. Bob


I just type in the coordinates and feed speed into the MDI, less spinning of dials needed, and I'm not writing a program to make one cut. it's really not a huge difference unless you are like me who has carpal tunnel among many other physical problems.


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