# WTF is Up With Argon?



## MrWhoopee (Apr 12, 2021)

With the needle down to about 300 psi, I decided to shop for argon for TIG welding. I called the two local suppliers in Redding, CA, one in Chico and one in Sacramento. Prices are for 80 cu ft. exchange

Airgas (Redding) $105.13
Shasta Welding (Redding) $82.44
MJB Welding (Chico) $56.69
Barnes Welding (Sacto) $41.41

I always knew that you had to watch gas suppliers, but this is ridiculous. Fortunately my wife has to go to Chico soon anyway, so....


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## Winegrower (Apr 12, 2021)

I avoid Airgas for just that reason.


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## matthewsx (Apr 12, 2021)

Well, it is a “noble” gas....


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## rabler (Apr 12, 2021)

My experience with Airgas is they want to discourage the casual/hobby crowd.  If you can get a business account they are a bit more reasonable.  I remember when I worked in Atlanta paying $3/liter for liquid nitrogen from airgas for my own use, but the contract price for my employer, DELIVERED, was $0.50/liter.   Hmmmm


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## pdentrem (Apr 12, 2021)

That 0.50/liter is likely based on a almost guaranteed monthly or yearly consumption. Still there is plenty of price inflation!
Pierre


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## brino (Apr 12, 2021)

inflation of compressed gases?


that should be expected......... 



Sorry......
-brino


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## erikmannie (Apr 12, 2021)

I have never spent one penny at Airgas in my life, and I never will because of things like this.


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## NCjeeper (Apr 12, 2021)

I had a commercial account with air gas and they still price gouged. Glad I have a new source for gases.


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## Ulma Doctor (Apr 12, 2021)

i'm lucky to have Manteca Welding supply less than 2 miles for my shop, best price in my area for welding materials

i'm used to being shocked, i buy Tri-Mix (85%He, 10%Ar, 5% CO2) every year


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## lordbeezer (Apr 12, 2021)

Praxair is much cheaper than air gas in the Raleigh area


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## erikmannie (Apr 13, 2021)

We have a Matheson Gas where I am, and they are wonderful. Praxair was okay, but they would be out of Argon quite frequently.


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## G-ManBart (Apr 13, 2021)

We have quite a few suppliers around here, and I've dealt with almost all of them at some point it seems.  The LWS closest to me doesn't fill their own bottles and uses two different suppliers depending upon which gas/mix.  I have two bottles of 100% argon with the LWS's name on them, and another from the place they use to fill their 100% argon bottles.  Buying from the LWS costs me $20 per bottle less than going to the place that actually fills them!  I pretty much only use the ones with the LWS name on them and keep the other as a spare or as a temporary when one of the other two needs to be filled....so I've only had to fill that one once in the past couple of years.

The crazy thing is the LWS is making a profit at the price they charge so the actual supplier is gouging for even more when you go direct.


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## Flyinfool (Apr 13, 2021)

It is common for the manufacturer or in this case the bottle filler to charge full MSRP to walk in customers. This is usually spelled out in the agreements with their dealers. If they sold to you at the same price as they sell to the LWS or even the same price that the LWS sells to you, they would be in competition with the LWS and would lose the LWS as a volume customer, and gain you as a once in a while customer. 

This is true in many industries, Yes the manufacturer is making a killing when you buy direct, but they would rather have the volume sales to the distribution chain, much less paperwork.


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## ericc (Apr 13, 2021)

Very interesting.  I hate paying for gas.  All the welding stores around here have that Silicon Valley entitled mindset, and you can feel the vibe as soon as you walk in.  There once was a cool place that was owned by a blacksmith living up in the hills.  He gave fellow 'smiths a discount, but ended up selling out to Praxair.


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## kb58 (Apr 13, 2021)

Our local Matheson place is really easy to deal with. I didn't realize how easy until I read here about how some places can be difficult when it comes to user-owned tanks. Here, they just exchange them for a full tank, no questions asked. It does make me wonder a bit about how out-of-cal tanks are handled, as in who pays for the inspection, but I guess that's rolled into the price behind the scenes. The one quirky thing is how the price of argon seems to vary by about 100% ($35-70 for a 125-cf refill), without any clear reason why.


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## G-ManBart (Apr 13, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> It is common for the manufacturer or in this case the bottle filler to charge full MSRP to walk in customers. This is usually spelled out in the agreements with their dealers. If they sold to you at the same price as they sell to the LWS or even the same price that the LWS sells to you, they would be in competition with the LWS and would lose the LWS as a volume customer, and gain you as a once in a while customer.
> 
> This is true in many industries, Yes the manufacturer is making a killing when you buy direct, but they would rather have the volume sales to the distribution chain, much less paperwork.



The first part makes sense, and I wouldn't expect the filler to sell to me for the same price that they sell to the LWS...that's pretty clear.

The second part doesn't really make sense to me.  The LWS could easily charge the same that the filler does if they wanted, and that would put them in competition with the filler.  It's not like the filler is going to mandate in a contract that the LWS offer a lower price, much less try to coordinate that as prices change, etc.

The filler I'm talking about is pretty large locally, but not a national chain.  They do a lot of individual sales, and don't discourage individual owners the way the big chains sometimes will.  You can walk right in and buy any size bottle, any gas, and they're happy to have your business.  They are great to deal with, incredibly helpful, and their prices are actually quite a bit better than Airgas, Praxair, Baker's Gas and one or two others I can think of that are local names.  They really are more like a typical LWS than the big chains.

My LWS is a small shop with one full-time employee, so their overhead is low, but even the owner (we're friends) was shocked when we talked about what the filler charges for a direct sale.  I don't recall the exact math, but I think the filler charged me $85 to swap a bottle and the LWS charged me $60 for the same size....something in that ballpark.


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 13, 2021)

kb58 said:


> Our local Matheson place is really easy to deal with. I didn't realize how easy until I read here about how some places can be difficult when it comes to user-owned tanks. Here, they just exchange them for a full tank, no questions asked. It does make me wonder a bit about how out-of-cal tanks are handled, as in who pays for the inspection, but I guess that's rolled into the price behind the scenes. The one quirky thing is how the price of argon seems to vary by about 100% ($35-70 for a 125-cf refill), without any clear reason why.


I checked on the owner bottle issue here before I bought mine off CL. I was told that as long as the bottle didn't say Rental on the neck ring they would just swap it out. I believe the pressure testing is just amortized into the cost of gas. Some dealers are funny about owner bottles, probably because the income from bottle rentals is not insignificant. As more users have discovered that you don't have to rent bottles, policies are (sometimes) changing


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## Asm109 (Apr 13, 2021)

Someone who grew up in Cottonwood once said, "There are only two things in Redding, A bridge and disappointment"  Now we can add a third, obscenely high Argon prices.


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## Flyinfool (Apr 13, 2021)

G-ManBart said:


> The first part makes sense, and I wouldn't expect the filler to sell to me for the same price that they sell to the LWS...that's pretty clear.
> 
> *The second part doesn't really make sense to me.  The LWS could easily charge the same that the filler does if they wanted, and that would put them in competition with the filler.  It's not like the filler is going to mandate in a contract that the LWS offer a lower price, much less try to coordinate that as prices change, etc.*
> 
> ...


There are some plases that have a MAP (Minimum Advertized Price). these are items that will say to put item in cart to see the price because the manufacturer has set a minimum for the advertized price to try to keep pricing consistant every where. Most places do not care what the LWS would sell for, But if the LWS raised their price to match the filler, they would lose a lot of business on gas AND the other things that get bought just cuz you are there. I do not believe it is legal for a manufacturer or distributor to set a minimum price on a product, they can only set a minimum advertised price. Best Buy is good for selling below map price, there are a lot of items you have to put in the cart and start the checkout procedure to see the real price.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 13, 2021)

My dad was a regional manager for Praxair, covering gas and welding alloys.  I used to get cylinders for close to nothing, and it was good.  Then I got stuff at cost or a great discount.  Eventually, like now, I have to walk in the front door and plunk down my credit card like any other schmoe.  I own a lot of gas cylinders, and some of them sting more than others (Ar/CO2/O2 mix), but its not all that bad.  Larger tanks save more money and go dry less often, if you can fit them on your cart (and in the back of your compact Hyundai to get them home).


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## kb58 (Apr 13, 2021)

pontiac428 said:


> My dad was a regional manager for Praxair, covering gas and welding alloys.  I used to get cylinders for close to nothing, and it was good.  Then I got stuff at cost or a great discount.  Eventually, like now, I have to walk in the front door and plunk down my credit card like any other schmoe.  I own a lot of gas cylinders, and some of them sting more than others (Ar/CO2/O2 mix), but its not all that bad.  Larger tanks save more money and go dry less often, if you can fit them on your cart (and in the back of your compact Hyundai to get them home).


Welcome, fellow schmoe...


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## Barncat (Apr 13, 2021)

I stopped going to airgas after I realized they charged a haz mat fee on every item they sold. Buy a drill bit, hazmat fee added, buy a grinding wheel, hazmat fee added, new mig gun tip, hazmat fee added. I asked the sales guy why and his response was because you can use a drill bit or grinding wheel to make something hazardous, so we can charge the fee. If I recall, it was in the neighborhood of 5-10 percent. Now I go next door to purity cylinder gas and buy the same stuff for less money and no hazmat fee tacked on.


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## ericc (Apr 13, 2021)

Barncat said:


> I stopped going to airgas after I realized they charged a haz mat fee on every item they sold. Buy a drill bit, hazmat fee added, buy a grinding wheel, hazmat fee added, new mig gun tip, hazmat fee added. I asked the sales guy why and his response was because you can use a drill bit or grinding wheel to make something hazardous, so we can charge the fee. If I recall, it was in the neighborhood of 5-10 percent. Now I go next door to purity cylinder gas and buy the same stuff for less money and no hazmat fee tacked on.


I figured our welding store did that to discourage small purchases.  Multiple items only were charged one hazmat fee.  Now, if they charged a hazmat fee for every line item, that would be a drag.  The local industrial supply store just went to line item minimum to discourage small (hobbyist, most likely) purchasers.


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## Eddyde (Apr 13, 2021)

Airgas is a ripoff, the other day  they charged me $35 for a 20 lb CO2 refill... A few months ago I paid $20 at my old supplier. Unfortunately he's down in NYC, a 100 miles away. Up here Airgas is the closest to me about a 10 minute drive, the next nearest gas supplier is at least 45min drive. Ugh...


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## pontiac428 (Apr 14, 2021)

The hazmat fee is bogus! It's not a law, it's a stupid store policy and a bait and switch tactic. If they're going to charge a fee, I'd better get a hard copy MSDS for each item as required by federal law... and a set of vehicle placards so I can legally transport the merchandise too.


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## Iceberg86300 (Apr 14, 2021)

pontiac428 said:


> The hazmat fee is bogus! It's not a law, it's a stupid store policy and a bait and switch tactic. If they're going to charge a fee, I'd better get a hard copy MSDS for each item as required by federal law... and a set of vehicle placards so I can legally transport the merchandise too.



Got my last pizza from Pizza Hut a couple weeks ago. 

$2 cost of doing business in California fee. That's in addition to the $4 dollar delivery fee, none of which goes to the driver. All added at the very last page before submitting your order.

I **** you not.

Sad part is that idiots will continue to pay it instead of driving them out of business.

I mean, if the pizza was good then MAYBE. But it's far from good!!!

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## rwm (Dec 22, 2022)

I am reviving this thread to report on my recent experience. I have never had an issue with Airgas Charlotte before. 
I currently have an Airgas 150CF cylinder of Ar that is now empty. In 2019 I paid $35 to refill it. Subsequently, Airgas deleted my account and has no record of the tank or my previous purchases. Airgas now wants $110 to refill it. 
Linde will not touch an Airgas cylinder and will not give out prices over the phone. 
Arc3 wants only $35 for a refill and will take an Airgas cylinder on exchange. 
Guess what is going to happen here??? Are they going to lose a customer and a cylinder?


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## G-ManBart (Dec 22, 2022)

rwm said:


> I am reviving this thread to report on my recent experience. I have never had an issue with Airgas Charlotte before.
> I currently have an Airgas 150CF cylinder of Ar that is now empty. In 2019 I paid $35 to refill it. Subsequently, Airgas deleted my account and has no record of the tank or my previous purchases. Airgas now wants $110 to refill it.
> Linde will not touch an Airgas cylinder and will not give out prices over the phone.
> Arc3 wants only $35 for a refill and will take an Airgas cylinder on exchange.
> Guess what is going to happen here??? Are they going to lose a customer and a cylinder?


Not surprising given the track record I've seen on Airgas.  The big issue with them is that the stores are independently owned (at least the ones I'm aware of) and they can come up with any policy they want and claim it's being forced on them by corporate.  

Arc3 likely has a hydro facility that simply pops the Airgas collar off and puts their own on it (or a blank)...they're just a press fit and any good hydro shop probably has the setup to change them.

All but two of my tanks are from the mom & pop shop 15 minutes from my house....they're just easier to deal with.  The big places really only care about big corporate accounts where all the bottles are leased and they take a truckload to them on a regular basis.


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## rwm (Dec 22, 2022)

Yes. I get the impression Airgas wants the small business and hobbyists to go away. That's a shame. I could see a day when it becomes hard to buy Ar at all.
My collar looks to be integral to the tank. Is that possible or is the paint hiding the seam?


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## G-ManBart (Dec 23, 2022)

rwm said:


> Yes. I get the impression Airgas wants the small business and hobbyists to go away. That's a shame. I could see a day when it becomes hard to buy Ar at all.
> My collar looks to be integral to the tank. Is that possible or is the paint hiding the seam?


I'm not a true expert on the topic, but I haven't heard or seen a tank with a collar that was integral to the tank.  It's certainly possible, but I don't think it's common.  Collars often fit really, really well and certainly look like they're part of that tank when you look at where the two meet.  Sometimes you can see the line, sometimes not.  The threaded part that the cap goes on is also part of the collar and is pressed on/peened slightly over the part of the tank that the valve screws into.  I didn't realize the collar was a separate piece until I started reading about tanks on the welding sites and paid attention to my own tanks which are from three different welding shops and some from the mom & pop have names of long defunct gas companies.


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## wayback machine (Dec 23, 2022)

I go to a smaller regional supplier up in Alabama - They just swap out any tank you bring them, and fill out a receipt saying you own the tank.
I guess I'm spoiled.
At one time, I used to go to Airgas, a long time ago .......


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## Winegrower (Dec 23, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> Arc3 likely has a hydro facility that simply pops the Airgas collar off and puts their own on it (or a blank)...they're just a press fit and any good hydro shop probably has the setup to change them.



The idea of a press fit cap on a cylinder seems suspect to me, but I'd like to know if this is correct.   Anybody know for sure?


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## mcostello (Dec 23, 2022)

Yes it is true.


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## pontiac428 (Dec 23, 2022)

All variations of the above are true.






						Cylinder Components – PTR Group
					






					www.ptrgroup-mfg.com


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## Jake M (Dec 23, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> The idea of a press fit cap on a cylinder seems suspect to me, but I'd like to know if this is correct.   Anybody know for sure?



It's not a pressure cap.  It's a pressed on collar that goes over the top of the tank.  If it's the common one with the threaded on "safety cap", it'll include those threads, but it doesn't seal pressure.  It serves two purposes-  The threads do get damaged, and you can't really machine a pressure vessle....  So it's first and foremost, "replacable threads" for the safety cap.  Secondarily, and most notably, after it's invention it took about five seconds for the gas providers spot an opportunity to put a permanent brand mark on their tanks without doing anything to compromise certifications.






						Zinc Plated Cylinder Neck Ring and Sleeves | Ratermann Manufacturing Inc
					






					www.rmiorder.com


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## Winegrower (Dec 23, 2022)

Ah, thanks everybody.   Learned a new fact.   It’s a good day.


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## Janderso (Dec 23, 2022)

Back when I was a scuba diver the oxygen tanks had a press fit high pressure plug that would blow out if the pressure exceeded 3,500 psi. I think.
I wouldn't want to be in the firing line of that plug.


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## wayback machine (Dec 23, 2022)

I think we've all heard the stories of oxygen tanks falling over, breaking off the valve, and then becoming a WMD ........
Any compressed gas is serious business :~/


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## G-ManBart (Dec 23, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> Ah, thanks everybody.   Learned a new fact.   It’s a good day.



When I first read about the rings being pressed in place one thing I had been told previously finally made sense.  Experts will tell you not to pick up a bottle by the cap.  It's unlikely, but it could pull the ring off and you drop the bottle with a suddenly unprotected valve.  My friend owned the welding shop where I got most of my bottles and she said it was also because caps and threads get worn and she had seen a cap that would pop off if you lifted the bottle with it....all makes perfect sense when you think about it.

There's a YouTube video out there where a fire department (I think) does a test where they break the valve off a bottle under controlled conditions.  It's actually surprising how far it goes even after hitting something and stopping!


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## brino (Dec 24, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> When I first read about the rings being pressed in place one thing I had been told previously finally made sense. Experts will tell you not to pick up a bottle by the cap. It's unlikely, but it could pull the ring off and you drop the bottle with a suddenly unprotected valve. My friend owned the welding shop where I got most of my bottles and she said it was also because caps and threads get worn and she had seen a cap that would pop off if you lifted the bottle with it....all makes perfect sense when you think about it.



I have experienced that the threads get "crudded up" such that the cap is very difficult to thread on.
Weld spatter, grinding dust, etc.
I could see someone not knowing or not paying attention and believing that the cap thread had bottomed and was tight.

Brian


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## rwm (Dec 24, 2022)

This is great info. Learning all the time!

Here is my cousin bubba. Fast forward to 50 sec.


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## pontiac428 (Dec 24, 2022)

Seems familiar somehow...


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## twhite (Dec 24, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Seems familiar somehow...
> 
> View attachment 430900



I loved those. I had to make sure I could get to the ladder. Is it would always land on the roof after a launch or two. 


Cutting oil is my blood.


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## brino (Dec 25, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Seems familiar somehow...



Of course I had to make my own version for the kids.
With disposable water bottles as the rockets.
For groups and friends we used a manual bicycle pump, at home we used the shop compressor, at nearly reasonably limits......
Amazing how much pressure you can put in one.
Great wet fun for a hot summer day.

I always thought that a 3D-printed screw-on fin arrangement would be perfect, but never spent the time.
Perhaps they are already available online.

Brian


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## G-ManBart (Dec 25, 2022)

brino said:


> I always thought that a 3D-printed screw-on fin arrangement would be perfect, but never spent the time.
> Perhaps they are already available online.
> 
> Brian


Troops in Ukraine are doing something very similar right now....they 3D print stabilizing fins that thread onto very old, obsolete Russian anti-tank grenades and then use drones to drop them.  I guess that's the high-tech, low-tech, high-tech solution!


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 31, 2022)

I do well in my gas suppler, but another thing that has skyrocketed are consumables. Manufacturers know they got you by the ones. I am a loyal Lincoln guy but I should have gone to another brand for the plasma cutter. The Pro-Cut 55 consumables are very expensive. When I see them on eBay I jump on them.


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## MrWhoopee (Jan 1, 2023)

G-ManBart said:


> Troops in Ukraine are doing something very similar right now....they 3D print stabilizing fins that thread onto very old, obsolete Russian anti-tank grenades and then use drones to drop them.  I guess that's the high-tech, low-tech, high-tech solution!


That explains what I've been seeing in those drone videos. I was wondering.


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## pdentrem (Jan 1, 2023)

Mythbusters did a broken valve episode.
Pierre


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## mcmanus2301 (Jan 1, 2023)

I made the mistake of asking AirGas for another small bottle for my mig welder thinking they would just charge me for the gas.  Then I get the invoice for rental.....over a dollar a day for it to sit there just in case I run out!!!! I'd be money ahead to blow my concrete with it and take the bottle back!!


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## MrWhoopee (Jan 1, 2023)

mcmanus2301 said:


> I made the mistake of asking AirGas for another small bottle for my mig welder thinking they would just charge me for the gas.  Then I get the invoice for rental.....over a dollar a day for it to sit there just in case I run out!!!! I'd be money ahead to blow my concrete with it and take the bottle back!!


Renting bottles is one of those things you only fall for once. It's a real money-maker, kind of like extended warranties.


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## rwm (Jan 2, 2023)

So your saying it was a mistake to buy an extended warranty on my rented bottle?!


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## Charles scozzari (Jan 2, 2023)

rwm said:


> So your saying it was a mistake to buy an extended warranty on my rented bottle?!


I Have had Problems with 1 acetylene bottle and 2 argon/co2 bottles over the years that had either a faulty valve or damaged threads at the hose connections. I simply returned their damaged bottle to in this case my supplier (who owns it) and was given a replacement bottle free of charge. To be honest iv'e never heard of a rental bottle warranty. If you rent a bottle and there's a problem you exchange it, or so I thought. So what does a warranty actually cover on a rental bottle and why ?


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## rwm (Jan 2, 2023)

I was totally kidding! Of course you would just return the cylinder. Extended warranties are not usually worth it, even on stuff you own!


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## rwm (Yesterday at 6:16 PM)

In follow up- I went to Arc 3 today and exchanged the Airgas Ar cylinder for a full 150 CF Arc3 cylinder. $39 including the hazmat fee. I thought they might give me a hard time about putting it in my SUV. The only rule is they can't do it. You have to do that. Such an easy transaction. Took 15 min tops. 
I also learned that the threads that hold the safety cap on the cylinder are part of the neck ring, not the tank. That is why you don't lift from there. If the ring is not on correctly the tank will drop out of it.


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## pdentrem (Yesterday at 9:28 PM)

I remember watching this.


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