# Very very cheap - very very BAD !



## graham-xrf (May 8, 2021)

It was a bargain budget bunch of (allegedly) 5% cobalt drill bits (eBay). So what was I thinking? Despite being a past contender for _"HM Tightwad of the Year"_, I do know better! I would not buy titanium surfaced bits because once the TN surface is messed, you don't get the benefit from a re-sharpen.

I reasoned that even if not the best, I could re-sharpen some. Being cobalt alloy makes that OK. It was, of course, a mistake, though at the price, if it was all junk, it would not even be worth returning. This time, I take the trouble to reject them, I am not sure even one of the drill bits could actually make a hole, except maybe into the side of a cardboard box!

The "manufacture" is so at the low at pits of poor as to be utterly risible! I am not even sure how the manufacture could so tear up the flutes. Rounded over, grossly off centre, inadvertent facets, there are hardly adequate words for this stuff in a machining forum!



	

		
			
		

		
	
_ _
	

		
			
		

		
	






	

		
			
		

		
	
_ _
	

		
			
		

		
	






	

		
			
		

		
	
_ _ 
	

		
			
		

		
	




In the end, I will have some cobalt bits in certain sizes, purchased one at a time as I need them maybe.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (May 8, 2021)

i feel your pain brother
i too have felt the icy sting of something too good to be true.
i have also been pleasantly surprised by how an item, so inexpensively manufactured, would hold up to my heavy hands
i have purchased small and micro carbide endmills that are surprisingly useful
same with very small metric drills

i have returned very bad drill bits to service by regrinding the point- but that defeats the purpose of buying a new drill, i suppose

chin up, this won't be your last tool regret!!!


----------



## Ken226 (May 8, 2021)

Holy crap!!    That's,   um pretty,    well

Ok, I can't think of anything to say!

Wait,

Those are new?  Your certain?   Not like, the set a high school shop class used to learn drill sharpening skills?

I bought a 117pc set of Harbor Freight cobalt drills, like 10 years ago, that are still in-use.  For 200ish dollars, they've been surprisingly good.

I bought another set of Harbor freight nitrided hss drills,  that absolutely sucked.  I mean, still 10x better than the ones you got. But sucked, nonetheless.

But,  the first time I tried to sharpen drills, they looked just like that.


----------



## NCjeeper (May 8, 2021)

Wow is all I can say.


----------



## Ken226 (May 8, 2021)

I bet if you got a drill doctor 750dx,  it would pay for itself withing 45 minutes,  just by making that set capable of drilling holes.

I have a drill Dr 750.   While the drills resharpened aren't quite as good as new, they still make a pretty good hole.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a Drill Dr would make your drills, at least as good-as-new.  Probably alot better.


----------



## coherent (May 8, 2021)

I bought a large 115 pc cobalt bit set from Harbor Freight a while back and have actually been fairly happy with them. The metal case was junk so trashed it and bought a nice Huot case. All were sharp and seem well made. Reviews on their web site and youtube were good.
They aren't exactly cheap at $115 for the set, but I got them back when HF had coupons and you could get some deals so paid about $75. Seems now they have stopped their coupons, so suppose you now have to wait for them to go on sale.
As mentioned by Ken above get a drill doctor. I've had a couple and have been very pleased with the ease and quality of the sharpening quality. I can do ok by hand with the grinder, but not with the precision I can get on smaller bits with the sharpener.


----------



## Bi11Hudson (May 8, 2021)

Ken226 said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a Drill Dr would make your drills, at least as good-as-new.  Probably alot better.


The biggest problem I have with Drill Doctor is it won't accept smaller sizes. Below 1/8 inch is trouble, below 1/16 is near impossible. I use a Drill Doctor for the larger (to me) drills up to 1/2 inch. In any case, the drills in question seem to be TiN coated. When the drill is sharpened, the TiN coating is lost and the drill is cutting with the base metal. In my shop, it is accepted as "the way it is" and drills are separated by their intended use. A numbered set for steel and another set for " non-ferrous" metals like brass. For the really small sizes below Nr 50 or so, I use a Dremel under a bench glass, sharpening by hand. Below Nr 70 or so, they are most times expendables. Depends on how I feel at the time.

I have several "sets" of drills, but no cobalt. Some are PTD (Precision Twist Drill) brand, some Horrible Fright, and some Amazon. So far, they all have been sharpened centered up. My sympathies there. . . But how sharp is sharp? The Amazon drills are good for wood or drywall but certainly not any metal. The HF drills seem to work well enough for "soft" metals such as a Bismuth alloy low melting (180 *F) or even ZAMAK sometimes. For steel or aluminium, I fall back to the PTD drills.

In the past, a full blown set of drills with number, letter, and fractional sizes was near a week's pay, several hundred dollars. That was for good drills. Cheaper sets were available but had trouble with wood and drywall. I'm sure current pricing has gone wild, with U.S. made drills at a premium. I would suggest "building" a set over time, as needed. The cost would be higher but distributed over time. Then keep them separate from the "cheap" drills as fallbacks for tough jobs. Avoid TiN coated, it's a selling point for marketers, not for users. Cobalt is good, but expensive. For tough jobs they are worth the cost. For lighter work like mine, a good set of HSS works well enough. 

.


----------



## Suzuki4evr (May 8, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> It was a bargain budget bunch of (allegedly) 5% cobalt drill bits (eBay). So what was I thinking? Despite being a past contender for _"HM Tightwad of the Year"_, I do know better! I would not buy titanium surfaced bits because once the TN surface is messed, you don't get the benefit from a re-sharpen.
> 
> I reasoned that even if not the best, I could re-sharpen some. Being cobalt alloy makes that OK. It was, of course, a mistake, though at the price, if it was all junk, it would not even be worth returning. This time, I take the trouble to reject them, I am not sure even one of the drill bits could actually make a hole, except maybe into the side of a cardboard box!
> 
> ...


I also noticed that the "HSS" center drills are very very  very poor quality HSS. Although I expected it, it still ****** me off when they broke.


----------



## Mitch Alsup (May 8, 2021)

On the other hand, I bought 115 cobalt drill bit set at Horror Freight and while a few of them drill holes 0.001" larger/smaller than they should they were all properly ground and sharpened. After 3 years of use, I am yet to dull one, I did break the #44 (4-40 tap size).

So. All in All I am happy with them.


----------



## Janderso (May 8, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> It was a bargain budget bunch of (allegedly) 5% cobalt drill bits (eBay). So what was I thinking? Despite being a past contender for _"HM Tightwad of the Year"_, I do know better! I would not buy titanium surfaced bits because once the TN surface is messed, you don't get the benefit from a re-sharpen.
> 
> I reasoned that even if not the best, I could re-sharpen some. Being cobalt alloy makes that OK. It was, of course, a mistake, though at the price, if it was all junk, it would not even be worth returning. This time, I take the trouble to reject them, I am not sure even one of the drill bits could actually make a hole, except maybe into the side of a cardboard box!
> 
> ...


A proper re-grind can reawaken even a cheap drill bit. Providing they used HSS.


----------



## homebrewed (May 8, 2021)

My main problem with my HF 115-bit drill set is the ones I have chipped or dulled.  Now sharpening drills is an item of interest .


----------



## graham-xrf (May 9, 2021)

Janderso said:


> A proper re-grind can reawaken even a cheap drill bit. Providing they used HSS.


I would, but there are 105 of them! Smaller drill bits are really tricky to regrind by hand. Having some sort of jig is, I think, essential. At the price one can replace them, very small drill bits can normally simply be replaced instead of re-shapened. The limitations of most store re-grind trick gadgets are similar to those for Drill Doctor for anything, but @coherent seems to have used one just fine on smaller bits. I have to wonder what is it's practical smallest drill bit limit.

If they really are 5% cobalt, there may be some worth in the base material. Putting in the work to turn them into something functional would be adding the week's pay value that @BGHansen mentioned. For around ten bucks, I was not expecting much, but I thought maybe 20% of the batch might drill an OK hole.
-->  UK eBay 105 pieces 5% Cobalt
--> UK eBay 99 pieces in carry case

--> USA version for $21 bucks
--> USA 20 pieces all 1/8" $12.39

*The "better stuff"?*
$38 bucks in USA gets a 15-piece set Milwaukee "Red Helix" in a plastic case. There are some where $14 bucks gets one drill bit, with a "lifetime guarantee". Surely the concept in the context of a wearing-out breakable part is nonsensical!

You get "Drill Hog" and split points and variable helix and all sorts.

You get M35 and M42, which I think is a rating of some amount of molybdenum  in the HSS steel. Looking it up, a good product has 8% to 10% cobalt. The M42 stuff is a molybdenum-series chromium vanadium tungsten alloy with cobalt and carbon heat treated to 70HRC. The cobalt gives hot hardness.

I think I will be "building my collection", and I may make my own storage case


----------



## Lo-Fi (May 9, 2021)

Last time I bought cobalt bits was 2017. 1-13mm, 0.5mm increments, fully ground. £42 from RDG. They came with a great 4 facet grind and I have yet to need to sharpen a single one! They're my "good" set that only ever get used in machine tools. _Never_ hand tools. I have 2 sets of HSS fully ground bits I think I bought from RS about 15 years ago for not much money for general job work. Still going strong, regularly sharpened by hand.

I loathe cheap drill sets, particularly when good sets are not expensive!


----------



## graham-xrf (May 9, 2021)

homebrewed said:


> My main problem with my HF 115-bit drill set is the ones I have chipped or dulled.  Now sharpening drills is an item of interest .


There are several styles to this. You get "perfect curve" where the surface from the edge back to the flute is a single curve a straight line can lay along. Then you get the "two flats" 4-facet style where the back relief cut edge appears to sweep back up as it meets the helix. I find it easy enough to hand-sharpen 6mm and up. I use two big hex nuts super-glued together to show 120° as a gauge. The "standard" is 118° - close enough. The way I was shown was to use a part-rotation, part "lower the hand" motion, practiced just before the grind to lay on the grind. Then the grind is in a single continuous motion, and keeping the stance unmoved, do the other side, then check. There should be no "facet edges", which happens if the sweep is not continuous.

The "two flats" method looks interesting, and there is a variation which combines the two, as shown by This Old Tony.

I have been through several kinds of sharpener. One of the best was a plastic affair that clamped the drill at an angle, and a pair of wierd shaped white plastic cam wheels. You put the thing down on abrasive paper, and "roll it along". It does a crazy up-down motion, but ends up with a perfect one-side grind. You turn the drill through 180° and go again, until symmetry is seen

There are now, of course, loads of videos. There may be some wisdom about which styles best keep centered, and which are best for side-edged clearance flutes, and which are best in mills, etc.

--> These


----------



## Masterjuggler (May 9, 2021)

I have a big set like that with a few hundred pieces. I use them mostly as locating pins and very low precision gage pins for random crap, with the flutes cut off. I once tried drilling some annealed tool steel with a 1/4" bit from the kit, and it turned back around on itself, became a left hand drill.


----------



## martik777 (May 9, 2021)

I got a 25pc M35 set in .5mm increments to 13mm for $23 about a year ago from  Banggood - they were excellent but price is now almost double:








						Drillpro 25pcs 1-13mm HSS M35 Cobalt Twist Drill Bit Set for Metal Wood Drilling
					

Only US$39.99, buy best Drillpro 25pcs 1-13mm HSS M35 Cobalt Twist Drill Bit Set for Metal Wood Drilling sale online store at wholesale price.




					www.banggood.com


----------



## graham-xrf (May 9, 2021)

Well folks - something did happen - a refund, no less!
When I complained, I sent the pictures as I posted here.




I get my money back, an apology, and they say "I need not return the item".
They are pretty much junk, though if they really do have 5% cobalt, some might be resharpened.
More likely I will look at RDG Tools, (a UK supplier), and go the same route as @Lo-Fi

The back end of some might serve as pins as suggested by @Masterjuggler.

No Drill Doctor here, but I might try out the Mazay DIY drill sharpening jig, which comes with free dimensions, plans, CAD model, etc.




The video is -->


----------



## ericc (May 9, 2021)

Are you sure they contain 5% cobalt?  I read on the Internet that the earlier vintage cheap Harbor Freight HSS drills were not really HSS, just a high tungsten alloy steel.  I did a spark test and confirmed this.  Even several years ago, Harbor Freight HSS drills were indistinguishable from high quality drills from a spark test.  They must have gotten better.  If you have comparative coupons, it is very easy to tell the difference between regular and high CO HSS.  Give it a try.


----------



## Masterjuggler (May 9, 2021)

It's probably like all the cheap end mills on ebay and aliexpress that say carbide, but are very clearly not carbide just from their color. It's not like you can really go after them for false advertising because they close down and start back up again under different company names constantly.


----------



## graham-xrf (May 9, 2021)

ericc said:


> Are you sure they contain 5% cobalt?  I read on the Internet that the earlier vintage cheap Harbor Freight HSS drills were not really HSS, just a high tungsten alloy steel.  I did a spark test and confirmed this.  Even several years ago, Harbor Freight HSS drills were indistinguishable from high quality drills from a spark test.  They must have gotten better.  If you have comparative coupons, it is very easy to tell the difference between regular and high CO HSS.  Give it a try.


Other than the description title was as in the picture above.
_"105pc Cobalt Drill Bits Set for Stainless Steel
Metal HSS-Co Cobalt Bit Titanium"_..

and that in the detailed description, they even mentioned the percentage ..

_✿100% Brand New and High Quality.
✿Stainless Metal Cobalt HSS Twist Drill Bits Set 1.5mm-10mm.
✿Made of HSS steel with 5% Cobalt.
✿Suitable for most materials including Copper, brass, wood, plastic, aluminum alloy, etc.
✿Ideal for DIY, home and general building/engineering using._

I would think it very likely they do contain 5% cobalt. They have the gold(ish) colour for the claimed TiN  coating, which of course is moot if one re-sharpens. It is possible the base HSS steel is not M42, but it will be HSS. In UK, we have laws ref: "Trades Descriptions Act 1968" which prohibits false or misleading information, and comes with severe criminal penalties. If a product is described, it had absolutely better be true, honest, and accurate! That's why the shampoo adverts carefully say "healthier _looking_ hair", because "healthy" is not a quality hair can posses.

It is true that eBay is full of counterfeits, and scam sales, but this seller/importer is trading in UK, is VAT registered, and is within the reach of the law. It was modified in 2008 by a comprehensive European Union consumer law directive, which is, in effect still there.

I could not even provide (positive) feedback for the response. The whole sale got cancelled, and evaporated, except I now have 105 junk drills on my desk, which have not evaporated!

I don't have a good way of taking a close-up magnified picture of the 2mm batch, but the "cutting" ends of these are staggeringly, mind-boggling wrong. These are quite possibly the very worst on the planet!


----------



## graham-xrf (May 9, 2021)

OK - I had a go..




Definitely exceptional!


----------



## MrCrankyface (May 10, 2021)

Perhaps you got the drill set for curved holes?
Definitely some interesting grinds there.


----------



## Lo-Fi (May 10, 2021)

Ah, that's the drill for offset holes. Most useful when you need it.


----------



## graham-xrf (May 10, 2021)

I had though we had pretty much said all there was to say about these crap drill bits - but I was wrong!
Thinking to try a little "re-grind" as suggested from @Bi11Hudson  and @Janderso , I spent a minute "adjusting" the one side of the largest bit, to bring about a little centre symmetry.




So far - so good .. but then, I came across it's other interesting "feature"!

View attachment eBay Cobalt2a.mp4


What can I say?  
I thought they were the pits already before this. Now I am not sure something so badly bent can be chrome-vanadium-tungsten moly cobalt anything!
I will keep at least this this one, to be offered at the XRF analysis (when I get it going)


----------



## Ken226 (May 10, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> I had though we had pretty much said all there was to say about these crap drill bits - but I was wrong!
> Thinking to try a little "re-grind" as suggested from @Bi11Hudson  and @Janderso , I spent a minute "adjusting" the one side of the largest bit, to bring about a little centre symmetry.
> 
> View attachment 365487
> ...



Ha!  That explains the offset point!

The machine that ground the point,  actually DID put the point on the drills axis of rotation.

I still can't explain the ones with the ball mill style tips though.


----------



## graham-xrf (May 10, 2021)

Ken226 said:


> Ha!  That explains the offset point!
> 
> The machine that ground the point,  actually DID put the point on the drills axis of rotation.
> 
> I still can't explain the ones with the ball mill style tips though.


Most excellent notion!
I know I am supposed to be laughing about all this, but I am also a mixture of sad and disgusted. I think the whole lot should go in the trash, and there be an end to it.

I am already looking forward to selecting my 6.0mm cobalt single.


----------



## Ken226 (May 10, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> Most excellent notion!
> I know I am supposed to be laughing about all this, but I am also a mixture of sad and disgusted. I think the whole lot should go in the trash, and there be an end to it.
> 
> I am already looking forward to selecting my 6.0mm cobalt single.




I feel your pain..   

I understand the feeling of working for a paycheck, then flushing a chunk of it down the toilet,  during an attempt to stretch it a bit further.   I've done it as much,  or more than most.

But, you may as well take some humor out of it.    

As my wife tells me:    "mad or happy, sulking or laughing,  your still in the same boat. May as well get something out of it. Even it it's only a few laughs".

Of course, when  we were at Harbor Freight and I was looking at a cordless drill, she said,  "we can't afford to buy six of those this year,  Home Depot has DeWalt. Just buying one is way cheaper". 

I still gotta learn the hard way sometimes.   I have drills that wobble like that too!


----------



## ericc (May 10, 2021)

You ground one!  What does the spark test say?  Cleveland Momax is one of my favorites.  I now see there is a Chinese clone, which hits the search words.  I wonder if it is the same stuff.

Here is a video on the real thing.  Go to 24 minutes for the sparks.


----------



## Lo-Fi (May 10, 2021)

Ah, one of those handy drilling round corners drills. 

I've found 6.8 and 8.2mm stubby drills handy to go alongside the .5mm steps. The 6.8 is tapping drill for M8, 8.2 is a "tight" clearance hole. 4.2 is also handy being the correct tapping drill for M5. The rest in the common range of metric course are covered in the .5mm increments, but those are awkward.
If I bought the set again, I'd consider a stub set, rather than jobbers. Fairly rare drilling deep holes and the extra rigidity is welcome.

For what it's worth, and while we're on the subject, Screwfix do a set of blacksmiths drills which I've found excellent. There's nothing outstanding about them, save for withstanding epic abuse and asking for more. They got the temper spot on, with just enough to hold an edge, but not so much they chip readily. For hogging jobs, both on lathe and mill, they're hard to beat.


----------



## graham-xrf (May 10, 2021)

@ericc  : Thanks for this. I will check out the sparks in the video, and have a little comparison to what happens when I grind on these.

Of course, we know now they are the worst, and I got my money back anyway. The sale got cancelled, and "poof", it was all gone. Could not even give positive feedback for them doing refund, and likely no chance for a review. I think this may be their business model. Simply refund and cancel for those who complain, and keep listing regardless. These things are  being pushed on eBay USA as well, from PA and CA, and of course, postal from china.


----------



## graham-xrf (May 10, 2021)

@Lo-Fi  : Thanks for the tip. There is an outlet about 4 miles North (I am a bit in the bush)!
They might still be on Click 'n Collect. Gotta check.
I long to get into lathe & mill. I have to do benches and stands first!


----------



## Janderso (May 10, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> I think the whole lot should go in the trash


Now we're getting somewhere


----------



## GunsOfNavarone (May 11, 2021)

I'm slowly turning into a cutter tool snob. It seems only logical as I am a knife guys as well. The difference between a great blade and a cheap piece of junk...night and day. I've stuck decent Dewalts in my mill and watched them wobble side to side. (sharp or not...doesn't matter) Learning this new hobby is challenging enough, I've decided to take the variable of cheap cutters out. When I went from whatever I could find twist drills to Norseman, I started to see the light. I just bought some YG1 endmills (at $45 a pop) and they are enjoyable to use. However, with this increased cost, I spent the time finding manufacturers feeds and plugging those #'s into the CAM....but at least that info is available from the big players. 
It is hard to pass up a "good bargain" but I pretty much have always been bitten by those bargains. I can't say I have say I've had the same situation with carbide inserts oddly enough. Mitsubishi, McMaster, Kenametal...I don't see a huge difference, maybe as I don't find find feed info available. Probably couldn't reach the speed/feed that ideally should be run at? I dunno.


----------



## Janderso (May 11, 2021)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> I've stuck decent Dewalts in my mill and watched them wobble side to side


In my opinion Dewalt drank from the Kool-Aid. The quality has gone down over the years IMHO.
I think their impact drivers are ok but the rest, not so good.


----------



## graham-xrf (May 11, 2021)

@GunsOfNavarone  :  @Janderso
Wait.. Kool-Aid?? Like the greenish powder in the packets that my Mom gave me out in Africa when I was little?
Would that be the same stuff told of by Tom Wolfe in  _"The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test"_?
Like when he went riding a pimped out school bus with Hell's Angels and the Grateful Dead??
.. and ..
Like when the party-goers decided to copy the recipe, (but they "estimated").  I was supposed to be driving, so I stayed off the alcohol, and went for the Kool-Aid instead? I still have colorful recurring dreams over that! Nobody told me the Kool-Aid was spiked. I lost count. Every Kool-Aid cardboard cup had enough for about five!

Re: DeWalt. The kit I have considered is kinda darn expensive. Not too far behind is Makita, which I now trust. I have a whole bunch of various quite good condition DIY store buys of re-branded cordless drills, with defunct NiCads. ? They look a bit Ryobi. Maybe I can use the motors for something.


----------



## Shotgun (May 11, 2021)

Ken226 said:


> I feel your pain..
> 
> I understand the feeling of working for a paycheck, then flushing a chunk of it down the toilet,  during an attempt to stretch it a bit further.   I've done it as much,  or more than most.
> 
> ...


I bought a DeWalt cordless.  Battery died in 6 months.

Name brand is often worthless nowadays.


----------



## Janderso (May 11, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> Wait.. Kool-Aid?? Like the greenish powder in the packets that my Mom gave me out in Africa when I was little?


Yes, exactly the same.


----------



## strantor (May 27, 2021)

I was gifted a set of drill bits that were like those described in this thread. The box still had plastic wrap on it so the friend that gave them to me didn't know... I think. I tried resharpening some of them and found that the center of the web wasn't in the center of the drill rod. Total, absolutely useless crap. These had to have come out of a scrap bin that was rerouted on its way back to be melted down for a 2nd try.


----------



## Ken226 (May 27, 2021)

I must have got lucky.  Or perhaps they drank the kool-aid after 2012.

After going through several harbor freight cordless drills the wife bought me a DeWalt and 2 batteries at Home Depot.   They've been working great since 2012.


----------



## graham-xrf (May 27, 2021)

strantor said:


> I was gifted a set of drill bits that were like those described in this thread. The box still had plastic wrap on it so the friend that gave them to me didn't know... I think. I tried resharpening some of them and found that the center of the web wasn't in the center of the drill rod. Total, absolutely useless crap. These had to have come out of a scrap bin that was rerouted on its way back to be melted down for a 2nd try.


The stuff I have is in exactly that class. I should have put them in the trash by now, but they are still on my desk, reminding me not to mess with crap. You can see from the picture in post #21 how the surface in the flutes seems to be rough and kind of "torn", and the video in post #24 has me thinking the flutes axis is not constant in the way you describe. The smaller sizes seem to have "chisel points" that seem fat, and out of proportion.

This crap will, of course, get binned, but I am keeping at least one for a while, to discover if there really is any cobalt in it. If not, then I will flag it as fraud!

Even now, in considering purchasing a single 8mm reamer for £10.50, I see "sets" of chucking reamers 3mm thru 12mm, 9 pieces for £11.75. That can't be right - can it?

Clearly, I am going to have to slowly build up a reasonable set of my own, buying one at a time as I need them


----------

