# 110v Light Wiring On 220v 3phase Lathe?



## Uglydog

I searched and didn't find a similar thread. I don't intend to duplicate.

I'm wiring a 220v 3ph lathe, and would like to wire in a 110v machine light without stretching any copper not needed.
Is it correct that I should be able to connect 1leg of the 110v light to one leg of the 220v wires, after I ensure that it is not the leg off the RPC?
However, the second leg would require additional copper wired normally to the panel, because wiring to the ground seems like a bad idea.

Is this accurate?
Are there better/different/safer options?

Thanks,
Daryl  
MN


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## pdentrem

A couple of our machines at the shop are 220 3 phase with 120 accessories. Therefore they have 5 conductor feed. 3 for the 3 phase for the 220, 1 neutral (which allows the 110 from one of the 3 phase wires) and 1 Ground. That is the best I can do for you. Someone with RPC experience will know better than I.
Pierre


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## John Hasler

Uglydog said:


> I searched and didn't find a similar thread. I don't intend to duplicate.
> 
> I'm wiring a 220v 3ph lathe, and would like to wire in a 110v machine light without stretching any copper not needed.
> Is it correct that I should be able to connect 1leg of the 110v light to one leg of the 220v wires, after I ensure that it is not the leg off the RPC?
> 
> Thanks,
> Daryl
> MN



Yes.  You'll need to bring in the neutral.  Also note that the 110V wire will need to be adequate to be protected by the circuit breaker on that circuit.


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## Uglydog

John Hasler said:


> Yes.  You'll need to bring in the neutral.  Also note that the 110V wire will need to be adequate to be protected by the circuit breaker on that circuit.



I anticipated the neutral. Thanks for confirmation.
I hadn't considered that I'd need to up the gage on all the wires to match the breaker.
Makes sense.... 
It might be easier to run a second pair of 110v wires in the conduit (if there is room) with a 110v breaker.
Or just keep it completely separate!! 

Hmmm, is it acceptable to keep things simple?

Thanks all!!
Daryl
MN


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## John Hasler

Uglydog said:


> I anticipated the neutral. Thanks for confirmation.
> I hadn't considered that I'd need to up the gage on all the wires to match the breaker.
> Makes sense....
> It might be easier to run a second pair of 110v wires in the conduit (if there is room) with a 110v breaker.
> Or just keep it completely separate!!
> 
> Hmmm, is it acceptable to keep things simple?
> 
> Thanks all!!
> Daryl
> MN



You could also add a cartridge fuse in the RPC enclosure.


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## jim18655

What kind of light are you using? A lot of bulbs come in 220v versions.


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## f350ca

Any 3 phase equipment I've seen has a step down transformer across one leg that supplies low voltage for the control circuits (often 24v) and a tap to supply 110v for readouts and lights. If your running off a RPC you'd have to make sure that leg was the one not generated. 
If you bring another wire in for neutral it would need to be switched in the main disconnect or/and main contactor.
Even 220 single phase equipment use this system to get control power and lights.

Greg


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## Glenn_ca

How about using low voltage LED lighting from a transformer that can be fed 220v.


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## LEEQ

Uglydog said:


> I anticipated the neutral. Thanks for confirmation.
> I hadn't considered that I'd need to up the gage on all the wires to match the breaker.
> Makes sense....
> It might be easier to run a second pair of 110v wires in the conduit (if there is room) with a 110v breaker.
> Or just keep it completely separate!!
> 
> Hmmm, is it acceptable to keep things simple?
> 
> Thanks all!!
> Daryl
> MN


You got it now. Your easy answer for 110 circuits on a machine with no neutral leg coming in is going to be to pull a 12/2 with ground wire on its own breaker. If your wiring to the rpc isn't pulled yet, you could also pull a four wire lead to it and split your hot, neutral, and ground to create 110 before it goes into rpc. I think your separate 110 circuit from the box will come out cheaper. Good luck


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## Uglydog

John Hasler said:


> You could also add a cartridge fuse in the RPC enclosure.



Would this effect the other machines?
I don't know what a cartridge fuse is.

Daryl
MN


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## Uglydog

jim18655 said:


> What kind of light are you using? A lot of bulbs come in 220v versions.



Hmmm. 
Does this require a special socket?


Daryl
MN


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## Uglydog

Glenn_ca said:


> How about using low voltage LED lighting from a transformer that can be fed 220v.



While I'd really like to learn the LED / transformer thing.
It'd take huge patience from your gals/guys to teach me how this works.
While LEDs last nearly forever and would likely never need replacing, does the expense of the transformers offset the savings?
Where do you get the transformers?

Daryl
MN


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## Uglydog

LEEQ said:


> You got it now. Your easy answer for 110 circuits on a machine with no neutral leg coming in is going to be to pull a 12/2 with ground wire on its own breaker. If your wiring to the rpc isn't pulled yet, you could also pull a four wire lead to it and split your hot, neutral, and ground to create 110 before it goes into rpc. I think your separate 110 circuit from the box will come out cheaper. Good luck



While my 20hp RPC is several years in place at this point, I'm thinking of relocating it this summer. Perhaps someplace where I won't hear it...
I apologize but I don't understand what this means "If your wiring to the rpc isn't pulled yet, you could also pull a four wire lead to it and split your hot, neutral, and ground to create 110 before it goes into rpc."

Are you willing to very patiently expound?
Please.

Thank you,'
Daryl
MN


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## pdentrem

What LEEQ was thinking, that if you have not fed wire to the RPC from the panel, you can use a 4 conductor - 2 for the 220 volt, 1 for the Neutral ( This will give you a 110 with 1 of the 220) and a Ground wire. After the 3 phase leaves the RPC, you will have the 3 phases and the capability of 110 as a separate line thus solving the 110 problem and having to worry about running at RPC just to have the 110 when 3 phase is not needed. This is on the assumption that you are using 220 to run the RPC. No extra fuses/breakers required as the 220 already has them at the panel.

Since you mention that you may be moving the RPC, this could be one way to do the job.
I hope I did not misinterpret what LEEQ was thinking.
Pierre


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## jim18655

Uglydog said:


> Hmmm.
> Does this require a special socket?
> 
> 
> Daryl
> MN


You could use a regular light such as a flex arm. 220v bulbs are available in medium base. I would recommend a 2 pole switch  ahead of the light so that the shell of the lamp is also turn off. If you are looking to put a light over the lathe most new fluorescent ballasts are universal voltage 90-277v.
The transformer, if properly sized, would give you the option of adding a receptacle for small loads at the lathe.  Probably be more than you want to spend though.


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## stupoty

Might be worth using an isolating transformer to increase safety, or are the lights waterproof/damage proof ? 

Or as somone else said use a transformer for low voltage light e.g. 24 volt.  

You should be able to get a lot of lamp bases in a range of voltages,  es lamps are the most common fitting I see in many different voltages.

Stuart


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## stupoty

Hears an example of a low voltage es lamp , http://www.cp-lighting.co.uk/GLS-12V-60W-E27-Pearl

Not that cheep, what kind of fitting does the light have ?

Stuart


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## LEEQ

pdentrem said:


> What LEEQ was thinking, that if you have not fed wire to the RPC from the panel, you can use a 4 conductor - 2 for the 220 volt, 1 for the Neutral ( This will give you a 110 with 1 of the 220) and a Ground wire. After the 3 phase leaves the RPC, you will have the 3 phases and the capability of 110 as a separate line thus solving the 110 problem and having to worry about running at RPC just to have the 110 when 3 phase is not needed. This is on the assumption that you are using 220 to run the RPC. No extra fuses/breakers required as the 220 already has them at the panel.
> 
> Since you mention that you may be moving the RPC, this could be one way to do the job.
> I hope I did not misinterpret what LEEQ was thinking.
> Pierre


That's about it. They sell heavy gauge wire with three conductors and a ground. A red, a black, a white, and a bare wire. That's two hot legs, a neutral, and a ground.  Some 220v devices run off of 220v, but have 110v controls or features. This kind of device requires that neutral leg. If that were run to the rpc, you could split off 110v from there and run it the rest of the way to the machine. Clear as mud, right? Now knowing you might relocate your converter, I would suggest just pulling a new 110v circuit over to the machine. You would be able to power more than just a light with it , too.


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## Glenn_ca

Would two 110v lights wired in series work.


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## stupoty

Glenn_ca said:


> Would two 110v lights wired in series work.


On 220 , yes, thats how the mains conected christmass tree lights work.  They will all go out if one goes pop though.

Stuart


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## mksj

The light on my 3 phase lathe was 24VAC running off a step down transformer connected between 2 of the legs of the power. The supplied work light on these are 24V, AC or DC, usually 50 or 70W bulb.  Since I switched mine out to a VFD, I got rid of the transformer and replaced it with a 100W 24VDC PWM power supply (REIGNPOER / NL1100D-24) , which runs off of any voltage 100-240VAC. I went to a LED bulb, due to much less heat, but stock bulb works fine also.  A possible option if you do not have multiple items requiring 120VAC. Not very familiar with RPCs,  but without a neutral you would need a dual pole switch as mentioned earlier, and there is also a matter of fusing. Lights like the one below (24 or 120VAC), use a single pole switch.


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## uncle harry

LEEQ said:


> That's about it. They sell heavy gauge wire with three conductors and a ground. A red, a black, a white, and a bare wire. That's two hot legs, a neutral, and a ground.  Some 220v devices run off of 220v, but have 110v controls or features. This kind of device requires that neutral leg. If that were run to the rpc, you could split off 110v from there and run it the rest of the way to the machine. Clear as mud, right? Now knowing you might relocate your converter, I would suggest just pulling a new 110v circuit over to the machine. You would be able to power more than just a light with it , too.



What LEEQ describes with 3 colored wires & 1 bare ground is how most household electric ranges have been wired.  An enclosure to accommodate terminal blocks, fuse holders or other devices can be a real benefit for future expansion or improvements to many machines. Initially connections may be made with wire nuts & fuses added with inline holders. Later things can be "prettied" up.


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## videotrack

If you are wiring three phase for the motor, only the three phases need to be heavy conductors. The neutral can be smaller. Reason is that in a balanced three phase circuit, there is no current flow in the neutral at all. The neutral only effectively has to carry the current imbalance that might occur between the other phases. So the wiring to your 110V lamp can be smaller than the wiring to the motor. 

Also, if you use LED lighting and a step-down transformer, make sure the LED lighting runs from AC (the output from a transformer is AC), or you need an AC to DC converter (e.g. a switch-mode power supply.) 

LEDs by themselves only operate on DC current (LED: Light Emitting Diode)

I don't think two 110V lamps in series is a great idea (christmas tree light style)

Hope this helps rather than adds confusion.

Trevor


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## KenH

The idea of LED lighting is good also - most of the newer LED lighting 120 or 220vac.  Like this one:  
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RES03VM
I use similar to this over my lathe and it really works good.  OR - you might prefer something along these lines: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007HZEJG2

Both these work on Input Voltage: AC 85V-265V

Let's see if I inserted the links properly.

Ken H>


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## videotrack

Ken, yep the links worked fine!


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## Dave Smith

Daryl--as far as your--- a simple approach-----what LEEQ said about bringing a separate single phase separately from your main panel for your lighting sounds good and simple to me without mixing it in with your 3 phase---I would run 220 single phase to a box on or close to the machine  so its handy for all projects 220 and 110---you can then just plug in or wire in any lighting or other electrical needs---220/110 single phase outlets are  always handy on a machine or in a machine area--make it universal and handy is my objective most of the time----Dave


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## John Hasler

Dave Smith said:


> Daryl--as far as your--- a simple approach-----what LEEQ said about bringing a separate single phase separately from your main panel for your lighting sounds good and simple to me without mixing it in with your 3 phase---I would run 220 single phase to a box on or close to the machine  so its handy for all projects 220 and 110---you can then just plug in or wire in any lighting or other electrical needs---220/110 single phase outlets are  always handy on a machine or in a machine area--make it universal and handy is my objective most of the time----Dave


There is a minor hazard in running seperate 110 and 220 circuits to a machine.  Someone down the road may shut off the 220 breaker, believe that he has killed all power to the machine, and go to work on the 110 wiring.


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## pdentrem

What I did was bring 220 into the garage and stop at the disconnect box. There are two fuses in the box. From the box I have the 220 and 110 for lights, so no power if the box is locked out. Downfall is no lights as well. Outside outlet at the house is available for 110 to bring power in while the main feed is locked out.
Pierre


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## Dave Smith

John Hasler said:


> There is a minor hazard in running seperate 110 and 220 circuits to a machine.  Someone down the road may shut off the 220 breaker, believe that he has killed all power to the machine, and go to work on the 110 wiring.




John---I meant run one single phase 220 cable to a separate box on the machine or close to it---if someone threw the 220 breaker then there would be no power on the 110 wiring-----then use a plug in cord from your light to the receptacle---no different than having a lamp plugged to a wall receptacle or an extension cord---Dave


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## Vladymere

The proper way to do this, by NEC, (I believe) if you want all the wiring to be in the lathe is to use a transformer within the lathe to provide the 110VAC, 24VAC or 24VDC.

The simplest alternative  is to mount a 110VAC lamp onto your lathe and then plug it into a nearby wall socket.

Vlad


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## KenH

Maybe I'm missing something here, but  why not just take an LED light similar to what I linked to above and connect right across two of the 220vac legs so when lathe is turned on, the light comes on?  I don't mean "turned on" to spinning, but when power turned on to the lathe.

OR - would that be bad per NEC?

Ken H>


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## nightowl499

I had the same thing to do but decided to opt out and run a seperate 110 line for the light 
added a quad box so i can also run  my pump light and dro when it comes from the seperate
quad, plus i didnt want to lose one side of my 220 over a light or sumthing shorting out . easy to just
run and have the extra plug ins


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## bbutcher

Uglydog said:


> I searched and didn't find a similar thread. I don't intend to duplicate.
> 
> I'm wiring a 220v 3ph lathe, and would like to wire in a 110v machine light without stretching any copper not needed.
> Is it correct that I should be able to connect 1leg of the 110v light to one leg of the 220v wires, after I ensure that it is not the leg off the RPC?
> However, the second leg would require additional copper wired normally to the panel, because wiring to the ground seems like a bad idea.
> 
> Is this accurate?
> Are there better/different/safer options?
> 
> Thanks,
> Daryl
> MN[/QUOTE
> 
> With "real" 3 phase power the voltage usually is 208 Volts rather than 220 Volts, but often it is called 220, and the difference is trivial. In that case the voltage measured between any two of the three hot wires will be 208 Volts, and the voltage from any hot wire to ground or common in a 5 wire system, will measure 120 Volts (maybe 117). Both the ground and common (neutral) wires are attached together and to a metal rod driven into the earth at the breaker panel where power comes into the building so they are electrically the same thing. Due to resistance in any wire, if there is a current flowing in the wire, there will be a voltage produced due to Ohms law V = I*R, and ideally any wire carrying a current should be attached to the common (also called neutral) wire which then may have a small voltage above ground due to the current and resistance. In an ideal world, the ground wire will not have any current flowing in it, and therefore will not have a voltage difference measured to the earth ground. Pulling a small current from a lamp will have negligible effect on this.
> 
> The lamp therefore can be wired between any one of the three hot wires on the RPC and neutral or ground and should work just fine.


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## DForeman

Uglydog said:


> I searched and didn't find a similar thread. I don't intend to duplicate.
> 
> I'm wiring a 220v 3ph lathe, and would like to wire in a 110v machine light without stretching any copper not needed.
> Is it correct that I should be able to connect 1leg of the 110v light to one leg of the 220v wires, after I ensure that it is not the leg off the RPC?
> However, the second leg would require additional copper wired normally to the panel, because wiring to the ground seems like a bad idea.
> 
> Is this accurate?
> Are there better/different/safer options?
> 
> Thanks,
> Daryl
> MN



220-volt LED lighting is readily available and surprisingly inexpensive.  See, e.g., 
http://tinyurl.com/lrutnnt
This offering claims 2400 lumens which is about the output from a 150-watt halogen bulb.


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## Dalton

You can not get 110 volts off a 3 phase 3 wire. Be sure you have a 3 phase 4 wire. 3 wire will be 220v to ground (neutral).


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## Smoky

pdentrem said:


> A couple of our machines at the shop are 220 3 phase with 120 accessories. Therefore they have 5 conductor feed. 3 for the 3 phase for the 220, 1 neutral (which allows the 110 from one of the 3 phase wires) and 1 Ground. That is the best I can do for you. Someone with RPC experience will know better than I.
> Pierre


Hi, If you have a volt meter for AC then just measure each terminal against all the other terminals and as soon as you hit upon 110 vac you have a usable connection for lights. Between Neutral and any phase you should have 110 volts AC.


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## rdhem2

Darrell, lets go back to our friend the control transformer like I sent you.  Wire it for 240v to 120v step down and hook your light up to it.  A 250va xfmr will easily run the lights these other fellows recommend.  Smaller xfmrs would work but may be stretching it as far as the load you put to it..
240v light bulbs come in many configurations but you won't find one at the grocery store.  I would go the xfmr route if you want to stay professional like the machine manufacturer would probably do.

The light mksj suggests is a pretty sweet unit.  Nice, bright, clear light and a swivel arm to boot.


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## TOOLMASTER

i got a jolt right across the chest
after one of the guys "fixed" the light that was damaged in shipping...i hit the switch with one hand while my other was on the table...#### that hurt.. needless to say i was #@&^%#@$#%&#&^%#%$#

it used a 220 bulb..ripped that crap right off and put up a 110 wall light


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## John_Dennis

Why not just run a separate wire to the nearest 110 plug?  This way you will still have light when the machine is disconnected for maintenance.  I have some of my lights wired to receptacles that are on the main garage light circuit. 1 switch turns all the lights on/off.


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## John_Dennis

KenH said:


> The idea of LED lighting is good also - most of the newer LED lighting 120 or 220vac.  Like this one:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RES03VM
> I use similar to this over my lathe and it really works good.  OR - you might prefer something along these lines: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007HZEJG2
> 
> Both these work on Input Voltage: AC 85V-265V
> 
> Let's see if I inserted the links properly.
> 
> Ken H>




I don't think that you can use 2 hots and no neutral on these lights.  Remember that in the US, Canada, the standard household voltage is 110 per leg using a Neutral. In other parts of the world they use 250 and a Neutral.  This is not at all like 2 legs of 110 which we call 220.  In the US we also have 480, which is 3Phase 177 per leg. 177+neutral is used mostly for lighting. I have never seen it used for anything else.

The reason we use 110 here instead of 250 is that it is much safer.


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## John Hasler

John_Dennis said:


> I don't think that you can use 2 hots and no neutral on these lights.


Sure you can.  You'd need to remove the cord and plug from the first one and rewire with the correct color code (and provide a ground, of course).  I wouldn't do it, though.



> In the US we also have 480, which is 3Phase 177 per leg. 177+neutral is used mostly for lighting. I have never seen it used for anything else.



I think you mean 480 phase to phase 277 phase to neutral.  That's commonly used for lighting in large buildings with the lights connected phase to neutral.  Gives interesting results when the electricians manage to drop the neutral halfway down a long hallway.


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## TOOLMASTER

what is your power company sending out...wye wound or delta wound power.


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## berniehernandez

I bought some standard LED bulbs that are 110v to 22ov for 10 dollars or less. I also had the same problem and ran a neutral. I then realize the bulb was rated for 110/220 v. That was a waste of effort.


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## rgray

I use these 12 volt.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/131592920124?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Cheap and a wall wart runs them. Pic of my quickly built lights in this post.  http://www.hobby-machinist.com/thre...led-lamp-from-scraps.43904/page-2#post-376131


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## abrace

John Hasler said:


> There is a minor hazard in running seperate 110 and 220 circuits to a machine.  Someone down the road may shut off the 220 breaker, believe that he has killed all power to the machine, and go to work on the 110 wiring.



That is true, but these types of hazards are all over commercial and residential wiring. Many multi-gang boxes have multiple circuits pulled into them. The only time the NEC requires anything special is when you bring two circuits into the same yoke...in other words a single duplex receptacle with circuit A on the top receptacle, and circuit B on the bottom. In that case you need to handle tie the breakers, or use a two pole breaker, to ensure they both get shutoff at the same time.

The NEC states and requires that all electrical work is to be done by 'qualified persons'. It seems we jump through a lot of hoops now, such as wire marking white wires as hot in switch legs now, to save the lives of 'unqualified' persons whom never should have taken the switch plate off to perform maintenance to begin with.

You are correct. There is absolutely an additional hazard by pulling a second 120V circuit to the same machine, but provided people follow proper maintenance procedures, it should be pretty minor. I wouldn't hesitate to pull a second 120V circuit if it suited my needs in this case.


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## John Hasler

abrace said:


> That is true, but these types of hazards are all over commercial and residential wiring. Many multi-gang boxes have multiple circuits pulled into them. The only time the NEC requires anything special is when you bring two circuits into the same yoke...in other words a single duplex receptacle with circuit A on the top receptacle, and circuit B on the bottom. In that case you need to handle tie the breakers, or use a two pole breaker, to ensure they both get shutoff at the same time.


Two circuits inside one machine is a similar situation.  If you've got a two-pole breaker labeled "MILL" someone may shut it off and assume that they've killed all power to the mill.  Good point about handle ties: that would deal with it.


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## uncle harry

John Hasler said:


> Two circuits inside one machine is a similar situation.  If you've got a two-pole breaker labeled "MILL" someone may shut it off and assume that they've killed all power to the mill.  Good point about handle ties: that would deal with it.



The code that applies to power to a panel or enclosure from an outside source is NFPA 79.  As of the 2012 issue, power from an outside source shall be orange colored.  Previous to this the mandatory color was yellow.  This wouldn't prevent an unknowing person from harm, but a professional who is current with the code  would be aware. NFPA writes and is responsible for the National Electric Code.


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## John Hasler

uncle harry said:


> The code that applies to power to a panel or enclosure from an outside source is NFPA 79.  As of the 2012 issue, power from an outside source shall be orange colored.  Previous to this the mandatory color was yellow.  This wouldn't prevent an unknowing person from harm, but a professional who is current with the code  would be aware. NFPA writes and is responsible for the National Electric Code.


A machinist troubleshooting a mechanical problem (or perhaps a difficulty with low-voltage control systems) won't see those wires.  A motor that was supposed not to be powered starting up unexpectedly can do as much damage as a shock or spark.  A professional electrician who should be aware might not be.  If I was paying for the worker's compensation insurance I'd want handle-ties.


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## uncle harry

John Hasler said:


> A machinist troubleshooting a mechanical problem (or perhaps a difficulty with low-voltage control systems) won't see those wires.  A motor that was supposed not to be powered starting up unexpectedly can do as much damage as a shock or spark.  A professional electrician who should be aware might not be.  If I was paying for the worker's compensation insurance I'd want handle-ties.



Yes, I totally agree. I was just adding some information to the pile.  Thanks for clarifying any confusion.


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## jim18655

Put a sticker on the control box or machine


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## Silverbullet

Label your boxes and switch panels is always good. I wire a separate switch box on each machine . It's closer if you working using the machine and some problem comes up. A separate box marked lights and voltage isn't expensive. Better to safe then to sorry. Every shop I ever worked or have been is has osha approval. Sometimes overboard but safe.


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## TOOLMASTER

jim18655 said:


> What kind of light are you using? A lot of bulbs come in 220v versions.



YUP..got zapped right across the chest by one....the shop i was at bought a new machine and the bulb assembly was damaged so one of the guys 'fixed' it....(found out after)..i went to turn on the light and got zapped from the light in one hand and resting on the table with my other hand...you can imagine how po'ed I was


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## uncle harry

TOOLMASTER said:


> YUP..got zapped right across the chest by one....the shop i was at bought a new machine and the bulb assembly was damaged so one of the guys 'fixed' it....(found out after)..i went to turn on the light and got zapped from the light in one hand and resting on the table with my other hand...you can imagine how po'ed I was



Nothing like some grounding here and there !


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