# Picked up a little mill finally.



## chuckorlando (Feb 28, 2014)

Well I have been looking for a mill for a while now. Everytime I find one it sales. The wife gave me 1500-2000 to spend. I found this old girl a while ago. The guy emailed me back twice. But when I tried to set up a meet, he never responded. Emailed again with my number(he had no number listed) and I never heard back. I see it's still listed a couple weeks later so I throw out another email and he text me. 

So it runs ok. The bearings in the head might need replacing as they make a little sound. But the ones in school make more noise then these. The power feed is missing the motor but all the gears are in place and good shape. Power quill works as does the fine down feed. Table moves pretty smooth, but needs a good de gunking. Back gears are fine, reverse is fine. The quill return or tension spring(I assume it's a spring) needs replaced as once you get it going it will continue to travel. 

It did not come with much, but with enough. 1/8in to 7/8 collets, BP vise, some big endmill holder I think and a clamping set. 

It also came with a power converter I think. I know the guy pluged it in and wrapped a string around the pulley on the gray motor in the pic, pulled it and hit the switch and it had power. I think I will just buy a VFD. The gray motor is a 2hp westinghouse I believe.








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Poor thing would look alot better had he not tried to clean it up with a angle grinder and doodoo brown paint. But for 1200 all told, I figure I am ok


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## RandyM (Feb 28, 2014)

Very Nice. Looks like it is 120v? Mine isn't VFD and personally I don't miss it, but then again, I am only a hobbist.


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## chuckorlando (Feb 28, 2014)

Last ones

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Thanks. No it's got a 220 3ph 2hp motor I believe it is. On the tag it says 230v 420v or something like that


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## RandyM (Feb 28, 2014)

How old is it?


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## chuckorlando (Feb 28, 2014)

I was told 1969. Where would I find them numbers?


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## RandyM (Feb 28, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> I was told 1969. Where would I find them numbers?



See the attachment in previous post.


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## chuckorlando (Feb 28, 2014)

If I am reading it right it's a 59 not 69. 12/BR 42677 the J head is j32477 1hp 220/440v


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## AlanR (Feb 28, 2014)

RandyM said:


> Mine isn't VFD and personally I don't miss it, but then again, I am only a hobbist.


If you had it and someone took it away you'd miss it.


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## fastback (Feb 28, 2014)

My BP had very loud bearings when I first bought it.  If you ran it at the highest RPM you had to wear ear protection. I could not take the noise.  I ended out changing all of the gears in the upper end including the spindle bearings. I spent around the same as you $1,200.  Mine was built in 72.  


Hope you have as much luck with your as I have with mine.


Paul


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## Bobf (Feb 28, 2014)

Looks like a great find. The fact he pulled the pulley to get it moving, then hit the switch indicates it's 3ph probably 208. Once turning they will run on sgl phase but at less than the rated power of the motor.
I also liked your ingenuity getting it off the trailer and in position.


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## chuckorlando (Feb 28, 2014)

No they are not even close to that loud. I can hear them but not very bad at all. I intend to make this my classic car. It will take a while, and done a little at a time. But she will be pretty once again. I'm already removing the paint from the head. It seems like the hardest part. I'm also scanning ebay for parts. She dont look like much now and some guys might shake their head at her, I love it. 





fastback said:


> My BP had very loud bearings when I first bought it.  If you ran it at the highest RPM you had to wear ear protection. I could not take the noise.  I ended out changing all of the gears in the upper end including the spindle bearings. I spent around the same as you $1,200.  Mine was built in 72.
> 
> 
> Hope you have as much luck with your as I have with mine.
> ...



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You gotta do what you gotta do. I used two straps at the front. One I could feed it with. The other would have a foot of slack. Once the slack was gone, I tied the feed one slack and used the tight one for the feed. I now from having rear flats that the trailer sags bad. So it seemed logical to pull both rears and set the back of the trailer bout on the floor. Then used floor jacks to set the height of the trailer to the steel 3x3. Then engine lift it up just enough to pull the blocks and steel and set it down on tubes.

It was easier to unload alone then to load with 3 guys.





Bobf said:


> Looks like a great find. The fact he pulled the pulley to get it moving, then hit the switch indicates it's 3ph probably 208. Once turning they will run on sgl phase but at less than the rated power of the motor.
> I also liked your ingenuity getting it off the trailer and in position.


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## John120/240 (Feb 28, 2014)

Chuckorlando's mill has step pulleys for changing speeds.  Can he  leave  the step pulley on the highest speed, then regulate his RPM's with the VFD ?


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## Charley Davidson (Feb 28, 2014)

John120/240 said:


> Chuckorlando's mill has step pulleys for changing speeds.  Can he  leave  the step pulley on the highest speed, then regulate his RPM's with the VFD ?



Not really, too slow and the motor will overheat. I keep mine in the middle and vari the speed but if I need to go too slow or fast I change the pulley.


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## dave2176 (Feb 28, 2014)

:greenwithenvy: Little my foot! That thing is awesome!


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## cathead (Feb 28, 2014)

Another option to start your 3 phase motor would be to insert a capacitor to one
of the 3 phase line pairs with a momentary switch in series.  When you apply
the 220 to one pair of wires from the motor and hold down the momentary
switch for a few seconds, the motor will spool up and will generate all 3 phases
needed to run your mill.  That way you don't have to rope start it.  I have been
doing this for years and it works very well.  Congratulations on the new mill !


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## AlanR (Feb 28, 2014)

Bobf said:


> Looks like a great find. The fact he pulled the pulley to get it moving, then hit the switch indicates it's 3ph probably 208. Once turning they will run on sgl phase but at less than the rated power of the motor.


If you run a three phase motor on a single phase at full load you'll eventually burn the motor up. We have had fan motors where a phase drops out while the motor was already running and without an external motor protector to sense this you will see the magic smoke. Ask me how I know.


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## chuckorlando (Feb 28, 2014)

Thanks guys.

It's little compared to some I guess. ahahaha

He was not pull starting the mill it's self. From my understanding it has a phase converter . It does not have capiciters I think he said. That big Gray motor in the pic is what he pull started. It was laying on the ground behind the mill with just a empty pulley on it. Some how it is wired into into that mess of electrical s I got with it. The switches were bolted next to the motor. He pulled the string on the gray motor, hit the black switch in the picks, then walked over to the mill and turned it on.


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## AlanR (Feb 28, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> He was not pull starting the mill it's self. From my understanding it has a phase converter . It does not have capiciters I think he said. That big Gray motor in the pic is what he pull started. It was laying on the ground behind the mill with just a empty pulley on it. Some how it is wired into into that mess of electrical s I got with it. The switches were bolted next to the motor. He pulled the string on the gray motor, hit the black switch in the picks, then walked over to the mill and turned it on.


Maybe the gray motor is an RPC with a failed start field or centrifugal switch on the single phase side.


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## John Hasler (Feb 28, 2014)

AlanR said:


> Maybe the gray motor is an RPC with a failed start field or centrifugal switch on the single phase side.



Most likely the gray motor is just an unloaded three-phase motor, which is what an RPC is.  You can start it with a start capacitor and a relay, a single-phase motor, or a pull rope as seen here.  Once spinning it will run on single phase and generate the missing phase.  Works better with a run capacitor but gets by without.


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## Cadillac STS (Mar 1, 2014)

The "Big grey motor" he showed you by pulling the cord is probably a "Rotary Phase Converter"  Google that before you buy a VFD.  That converter is probably a great find as well and worth $500 or so.  You can add capacitors to kick the motor to start it, pull it on a cord like the guy did.  Some people set up a 120 volt motor on a pulley to that motor for a few seconds to get it going. 

What it is doing is taking one phase current and putting out 3 phase current.

Look it up.

If it were me I would use that to wire the whole shop for 3 phase and be able to shop for other high powered tools that use 3 phase.  Not one VFD per machine.  I'd probably mount a 120 volt starter motor to it to start it running.

You might not realize it but that phase converter is a major score too.

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AlanR said:


> If you run a three phase motor on a single phase at full load you'll eventually burn the motor up. We have had fan motors where a phase drops out while the motor was already running and without an external motor protector to sense this you will see the magic smoke. Ask me how I know.



That is why you need a VFD or a rotary phase converter.  With those they are just fine.


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## chuckorlando (Mar 1, 2014)

Thanks all for the comments and advice.

He said it came with a PH converter, I just did not know that the motor was the actual converter. So maybe it's not some jerry rigged set up. ahaha. What kinda caps or what not, or what kinda little motor would I use on this?

I just liked the vfd more for the variable speed then anything else. But if this set up is fine, I think I will use it at least in the mean time. I got alot of things to spend money on so if I dont need to spend it on a vfd right now, all the better.

I'm gonna talk to my instructor about bringing the table in to clean it up. It will be a process to get the whole machine nice


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## Bill Newland (Mar 1, 2014)

I purchased my Pearson BP clone Mill last May which has a 2.2 HP 3 phase motor on it.  To get it to work in my single phase garage, I purchased a 3 HP 3 phase electric motor and also a "Phase Craft" converter on ebay for $130.  All you do is flip the switch on the phase converter and your in business. I just checked and noticed the ebay store is still selling them.       See  http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-HP-ROTARY...607?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fa633b0f

You could, of course, build your own electrical box (which consists of relays and capacitors) but I didn't think it was justified for the price of the "Phase Craft". This is what is known as a Rotary Phase Converter. There are also Static Phase Converters, which I understand reduces the HP capacity of the machine motor and also can damage it over time.


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## LEEQ (Mar 1, 2014)

I dearly love my teco vfd for reversing and speed control. They are supposed to be easier on the motor too. When you have her all functional, you might list the phase converter to recoup vfd money. Buying the series one rebuild book is money well spent. Lot's of good pic's and advice. Machinerypartsdepot.com Is a helpful friendly outfit with competitive prices. They carry that book and lots of parts. Congrats!


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## ranch23 (Mar 1, 2014)

I see some very enjoyable time ahead.


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## keithmifflin (Mar 1, 2014)

Ok don't jury rig the system!!!  Check to see what HP, amperage and phase the motor is!  If it is a 4 HP or larger then use the link that was given to you about the Ebay rotary phase converter and spend a bit of money and get a quality product.  Spinning up the idler motor (which is what that extra motor is) by hand and ensuring all goes well can  lead to burning out the idler motor, and tying yourself up in a spinning motor.

If the idler motor is less than 4 HP then you have other decisions to make because phase converters don't produce the full rated HP and your mill will run much less than it is rated for.  Typically you will loose between 1/3 and 1/2 the rated HP output on a phase converter.  So you need a larger idle motor to offset the loss thus a 4 hp being the smallest to gain full power form the phase converter.

Take some time while your rebuilding your mill and study up on Rotary Phase converters --  I wouldn't waste my time on Static Phase Converters they are real weak and can be problematic (I know many have good luck with them).

The VFD is a great way to go if you are only going to have 1 3 phase piece of equipment.  If you want more 3 phase equipment in the future you can use a single rotary phase converter to power that too but only run 1 tool at a time unless you build a larger HP rotary phase converter.  Again I strongly suggest you do a bunch of online research and understand Static Phase converters, Rotary Phase converters and VFD's then make you decision.  Also most all phase converters are start up rated so say you had a 10 HP motor you may be able to run 3 machines simultaneously as long as the start up HP is not and issue.  A 10 HP rotary phase converter could run say 20 HP of machines at one time but none could in itself be more that say 7.


Regards
Keith


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## SEK_22Hornet (Mar 1, 2014)

I suspect that the gray motor is exactly that - a three phase motor being used to generate three phase power from the standard single phase 220 volt line being started manually. If you add a static phase converter to the gray motor (connected to the motor directly) you will have created a self starting, rotary phase converter.  Just apply power and away it goes. Check this ebay listing out for a static phase converter that is less than $50 with free shipping. In the listing, go to the bottom and click the "ask a question" link and then click "other" for a list of FAQ's. He talks about using a static converter and an idler motor to build a rotary phase converter.  For under $50 you can use the motor you have and add the static converter to end up with a nice rotary converter that will give you the full power output of the motor on the mill and should not harm the mill motor, based on what I have read.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5-Hp-Stat...864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7d4f8aa8

I would suggest contacting the seller for sizing information. This one is for a 3-5 hp motor - might not need that size. I saw the same seller had a smaller version for a little less.


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## chuckorlando (Mar 1, 2014)

Thanks all. 

The guy un hooked the electrics while I was trying to load it. So I aint sure whats what or how it worked. I think the 220 cord came into the 2hp gray motor and the "block" in this pic. Out of that block there was a 220 female plug and some smaller wires that run to the two switches. Out of the two switches there is a 110 male plug. I believe the motor on the mill had a male 220 plug that went into the female plug.

The guy removed the female 220 that I know of. I'm assuming he also took a male 220 plug off the mill motor.

So I think it went

1)220 in to gray motor
2)into the "block"
3)220 female plug and to the two switches
4)male 220 plug into 220 female and mill motor


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## Cadillac STS (Mar 3, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> The guy un hooked the electrics while I was trying to load it. So I aint sure whats what or how it worked. I think the 220 cord came into the 2hp gray motor and the "block" in this pic. Out of that block there was a 220 female plug and some smaller wires that run to the two switches. Out of the two switches there is a 110 male plug. I believe the motor on the mill had a male 220 plug that went into the female plug.
> 
> ...



Do some google searching of it.  It is not that difficult and once you fully understand it the connections won't be a problem.  Make it work because it does work and is free and you can run other equipment off it too.


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## keithmifflin (Mar 3, 2014)

The grey motor is your idler motor (the one that generates the 3 phase)  

Your 220 should come into your phase converter which is in some kind of an electrical enclosure.  It sounds like you have a manual system with the 2 switches, one may be the power switch for your 220 line input and the may run a switch for the Idler motor.  Personally I think that this kind of start circuit is a bad idea it can lead to a burned up idler motor (I learned this the hard way trying to be cheap).  I can't help with the switch wiring as I don't know and can't see what it is for sure.

The idea is this in a good clean system:
220 comes in from the panel to a phase converter box and hooks up to a connector inside the box.  Then the idler motor your gray motor has 4 wires connected up to it under the wiring box plate fastened to the motor.  Three power lines and one ground (T1, T2, T3 and ground)  these wires go up into the phase converter box and connect where you see T1, T2, T3 and ground.  It is not important which wires go on which connection but be sure ground goes to ground.  From the Phase converter box you run 4 more wires out to a magnetic starter then to the mill connecting them to T1. T2, and T3 as well as ground.  Again assuring which is T1, T2 or T3 is not important.  If when the equipment is started and it should run backwards just swap around any 2 of the wires Marked T1,T2 or T3 and it will run the opposite directions.

Now what I can't help you with is the switching used that came with the machine as this can be done several different ways that is why I am encouraging you to go onto Ebay and purchase that phase converter talked about earlier. 

Google making a 3 phase converter and look at both static and Rotary converters plans to get a better idea what you are dealing with.  For the $128 or so for a new phase converter box that does everything except the motor starter why chance it.

Keith






chuckorlando said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> The guy un hooked the electrics while I was trying to load it. So I aint sure whats what or how it worked. I think the 220 cord came into the 2hp gray motor and the "block" in this pic. Out of that block there was a 220 female plug and some smaller wires that run to the two switches. Out of the two switches there is a 110 male plug. I believe the motor on the mill had a male 220 plug that went into the female plug.
> 
> ...


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## chuckorlando (Mar 3, 2014)

I have been looking into it all. I think I got it figured out how he done it via another thread on here. That black box in the gray elec box is a Sprecher + Schuh CA3-12. Motor starter relay. But far as I can tell it's a 110 relay.

I think ultimatly I still want a vfd. I'll use it for now then set it on a shelf I guess. If I need it I can use it then. The variable speed seems the way to go on a belt drive.

I just dont like the idea of using power to run a motor thats not being used.

Thanks for the help.

I did manage to strip all the paint down to metal short of about 10%. I'll smooth out the cast and paint it up then move it inside. As I tear it apart one piece at a time I can clean up the matting surfaces and clean up or replace the bolts and handles and all.


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## xalky (Mar 3, 2014)

SEK_22Hornet said:


> I suspect that the gray motor is exactly that - a three phase motor being used to generate three phase power from the standard single phase 220 volt line being started manually. If you add a static phase converter to the gray motor (connected to the motor directly) you will have created a self starting, rotary phase converter.  Just apply power and away it goes. Check this ebay listing out for a static phase converter that is less than $50 with free shipping. In the listing, go to the bottom and click the "ask a question" link and then click "other" for a list of FAQ's. He talks about using a static converter and an idler motor to build a rotary phase converter.  For under $50 you can use the motor you have and add the static converter to end up with a nice rotary converter that will give you the full power output of the motor on the mill and should not harm the mill motor, based on what I have read.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5-Hp-Stat...864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7d4f8aa8
> 
> I would suggest contacting the seller for sizing information. This one is for a 3-5 hp motor - might not need that size. I saw the same seller had a smaller version for a little less.


This is exactly right. You can start the 3ph RPC with a Static phase converter. This gets the RPC motor up and running without having to turn it by mechanical means. Once the RPC motor is running, the static phase converter acts as a run capacitor. This is the cheapest way to go, and it is quite reliable too.


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## chuckorlando (Mar 3, 2014)

I think I might order one of them in the mean time. I just aint sure what all is going on with this set up now


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## jmarkwolf (Mar 27, 2014)

Charley Davidson said:


> ... I keep mine [belt] in the middle and vari the [VFD] speed, but if I need to go too slow or fast I change the pulley.



Same here.


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## nickmckinney (Mar 31, 2014)

Thats a nice project mill. Part of me wants an American iron like that to restore my way, the other part says I have no time to restore a machine like that. :thinking:


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## chuckorlando (Mar 31, 2014)

Thanks. It's not to bad really. Just pick your battles so you can use it as you fix it up. I stripped it down at the shop door and filled the cast and sanded it as well as 90% of the paint. Then moved it to where it lives. Shimmed the gibs untill I can do that all right. I should have all I need for the head and spindle rebuild At that point I will polish all the alum, paint the head, and replace what ever handles or the like with chrome/alum.


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## dave2176 (Apr 1, 2014)

It is really looking nice. Please keep us updated on your progress. 
Dave


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## RandyM (Apr 1, 2014)

Yup, looking good Chuck. I like it.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks guys. It sucks I spent time on that powerfeed only to find they want absurd prices to replace the motor. They want 500-800 fr just a motor when a whole power feed can be bought new. I have yet to find a motor with the shaft cut with the gear. So likely that whle box will be yanked off for a much more boring looking new one


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## RandyM (Apr 1, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> Thanks guys. It sucks I spent time on that powerfeed only to find they want absurd prices to replace the motor. They want 500-800 fr just a motor when a whole power feed can be bought new. I have yet to find a motor with the shaft cut with the gear. So likely that whle box will be yanked off for a much more boring looking new one



Can you take the motor to a rebuild shop? Some times they can do amazing things. I had the main drive motor rebuilt like new for my machine.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 1, 2014)

Well the whole unit is in A1 shape. Gears all look perfect. Sadly, it came with no motor on it. I'm no purist and the new ones work better imo with the vari speed and RT. But man that old girl just looks so cool. I love mechanical looking


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## nickmckinney (Apr 1, 2014)

What motor is missing/damaged?

I have a stone surface grinder I wonder how it would do on a mill table restoration. Imagine a 13" diameter head spinning with 10 stones and a constant coolant wash. Mine is smaller and would have to take 2 passes on a mill table end to end, I can only go 36" or so in travel. I am going to redo the top of a cylinder head fixture I have first, its not hardened and its needing it from all the oops over the years. Its just like a mill table in that it has 2 grooves for mounting stuff rather than multiple, and its about 10" deep and 48" wide.


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## RandyM (Apr 1, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> Well the whole unit is in A1 shape. Gears all look perfect. Sadly, it came with no motor on it. I'm no purist and the new ones work better imo with the vari speed and RT. But man that old girl just looks so cool. I love mechanical looking



I hear ya Chuck, didn't realize the motor was missing all together. It would be nice to put her back to original, but sometimes that just doesn't work out well. If its a special motor I think you are looking at new.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 1, 2014)

Where bouts you at in Orlando? I thought about taking the table to school and cleaning it up but I dont think any of our grinders would have enough bed. I figure it's stress relieved already being ssome yahoo ran a fly cutter across it. aahaha. 

Randy best I can tell, the drive gear is actualy cut into the motors shaft. I'm not on par with cutting worm gears or the like on a brand new motor. I just dig the old school look. But I figure chances are, I will be painting a new feed black to match my mill.





nickmckinney said:


> What motor is missing/damaged?
> 
> I have a stone surface grinder I wonder how it would do on a mill table restoration. Imagine a 13" diameter head spinning with 10 stones and a constant coolant wash. Mine is smaller and would have to take 2 passes on a mill table end to end, I can only go 36" or so in travel. I am going to redo the top of a cylinder head fixture I have first, its not hardened and its needing it from all the oops over the years. Its just like a mill table in that it has 2 grooves for mounting stuff rather than multiple, and its about 10" deep and 48" wide.


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## nickmckinney (Apr 1, 2014)

Orange and Mary Jess area, where Orange splits into separate left and right. I have never actually used one of these stone surfacers, all the ones I worked on had already been converted from stone to carbide/CBN. Its going to be awhile before I can do that and it came with a brand new set of stones so.............

With typical cast iron its 003 per pass I was told, I know if you slow down the transverse slow enough its going to make a very smooth finish. Like take 5 or more minutes to do a 36" pass. I would love to see what it could do to a beat up mill top.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 1, 2014)

I've never used one for sure. I'm not even sure what one looks like. I'm off Dean and 50.  Little area no one knows is here where everyone is on 2 or more acres. If you ever want to get together or need some help just let me know. I cant see much hurting the table more then it is so if you ever feel froggy. ahahahaha


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## nickmckinney (Apr 2, 2014)

If you are game I am game, wanna trade helping me to get it running smooth? It needs a mini restoration like what you did to that Bridgeport. Here is a picture of the little baby (it has no knee so its only about 6' tall) Is your table 42" wide? If so I might be able to cover the entire surface though it would probably not get the full rotating head on the outer edges (passes from both sides) If we trammed it in really good it would be pretty flat I reckon when done. Head spins at 1450RPM, table transverse motor i am going to VFD it separately so I can slooooooow it down to a crawl.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 2, 2014)

I am always game to help out. You want to pull it down to metal or rough sand it or how much you looking to do? I would help just cause that thing is cool. ahahaha

You have a sand blaster? Paint stripper, needle scaler? Whats your thought on how your looking to go about it? Does it work and needs cleaned, or does it need "work"? Either way, I am game brother


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## nickmckinney (Apr 2, 2014)

Rough sand is all, then cover with Hammerite (the real stuff not the Home Depot stuff) The machined top surfaces and holding fixtures will be wet sanded with 400g just to derust. Need to clean out the ways and gibs, and oil and grease it all up. Probably 2 days total, one to tear down and paint and the other to assemble and make some stone dust test pieces. I think it works fine as is, but you can tell its been worked on and sitting unused for awhile. I spent more years in cylinder head shops than regular machine shops, so I have a "hobby" of collecting "unwanted" machines used in that field and make some side money from it to pay for them. This is basically a cylinder head resurfacer that with the grinding wheel options (you can go as small as a 4" diameter) you can grind all sorts of larger flat surfaces.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 2, 2014)

Let me now when your thinking of getting into it.


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