# Anyone tig 1911 frame rails?



## KevinD

I guess the limits of peening the frame rails has inherent limitations for durability I'm interested in how folks build up worn out frame rails?  Since most 1911 frames seem to be 4140 what filler rod do you use?  Do you use a heat sink? pre-heat? post-heat?  Is it just a fools errand?  Thanks for any insights.

It just occurred to me that this may be better on the gunsmithing forum... c'est le vie


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## xalky

Whats a 1911? Any pictures?


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## KevinD

handgun 45 acp... Sorry about that, I realized after a couple of minutes that I'd ought to put the thread in the gunsmithing list  )


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## xalky

This might be better in the gunsmithing forum, you're right there. My instinct tells me that trying to build this up with weld might create more problems than it solves, warpage, hardening etc...


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## pdentrem

I had it done yrs ago. Had the guy just do 4 places. At the frt and rr of the rails. He had to be careful to not hit the lower side of the groove. About 1/2" long and then I refitted the slide and rails grooves to about .001". Been running this way for a long time. Picture shows one of the 4 built up areas.
Pierre


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## KevinD

Most interesting Pierre.  The one's I've thought about doing this with would be on the top side of the rail as the slop develops with the slide in battery rocking up/down.  At least there it is a bit bigger target to hit, that would be a pickle to get the weld in the frame groove.  Be a whole lot more work.


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## Tom Griffin

Kevin,

4140 is a low alloy steel and is pretty easy to weld. If you choose to have the frame re-hardened and blued, you'll need to use a carbon steel rod (not stainless). Here's an article on how to TIG weld 4140 that discusses the type of rod and techniques. I welded up the frame on one of my 1911's years ago (maybe 20?) and re-machined the entire slide. It was left it as welded and not re-hardened. It is shot regularly and has held up well over the years, so hardening it doesn't seem to be necessary for reasonable durability.

Tom


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## xalky

pdentrem said:


> I had it done yrs ago. Had the guy just do 4 places. At the frt and rr of the rails. He had to be careful to not hit the lower side of the groove. About 1/2" long and then I refitted the slide and rails grooves to about .001". Been running this way for a long time. Picture shows one of the 4 built up areas.
> Pierre


Excellent! I don't think I'd attempt it but I'm a novice tig welder. But i might attempt it with lots of practice under my belt.


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## KevinD

TomG said:


> Kevin,
> 
> 4140 is a low alloy steel and is pretty easy to weld. If you choose to have the frame re-hardened and blued, you'll need to use a carbon steel rod (not stainless). Here's an article on how to TIG weld 4140 that discusses the type of rod and techniques. I welded up the frame on one of my 1911's years ago (maybe 20?) and re-machined the entire slide. It was left it as welded and not re-hardened. It is shot regularly and has held up well over the years, so hardening it doesn't seem to be necessary for reasonable durability.
> 
> Tom



Tom, that was a great little video.  Really informative.

And the fact that your gun has held up for a good long while seems somewhat reasonable in many respects.  I mean, as a casual observer and armchair metalurgist (ok, backyard blacksmith is more appropriate) the hardness seems a bit less critical than a certain toughness that comes from the carbon and alloys.


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## Tom Griffin

Kevin,

That's the nice thing about a semi-auto, Unlike in a revolver or single shot, most of the energy is absorbed by the action not the frame. Consequently you could make the frame out of aluminum if you want and it would work perfectly well. In fact, aluminum frames are available and quite popular for the 1911. Machining one out of 7075 is even on my project list as soon as it gets to a manageable level, but there are a few other guns that I need to finish first.

That is a good welding site and Jodie Collier, the guy who owns it, will even answer your questions if you email him.

Tom


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## KevinD

TomG said:


> Kevin,
> 
> That's the nice thing about a semi-auto, Unlike in a revolver or single shot, most of the energy is absorbed by the action not the frame. Consequently you could make the frame out of aluminum if you want and it would work perfectly well. In fact, aluminum frames are available and quite popular for the 1911. Machining one out of 7075 is even on my project list as soon as it gets to a manageable level, but there are a few other guns that I need to finish first.
> 
> That is a good welding site and Jodie Collier, the guy who owns it, will even answer your questions if you email him.
> 
> Tom



I suppose you've seen the cncguns.com website?  Not in my realm l (all my machines are old... about as old as me or more, and I got a "D" in Fortran in 1974, nipped my computer career early, ha!), but totally amazing.  

If I have any questions after getting through the videos I'll keep that in mind.  He's really thorough.


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## Tom Griffin

I have seen the cncguns website and there is a lot of good information there. CNC makes a lot of machining operations easier and faster, but is not required to make receivers. A lot of 1911's were made before the avent of cnc. And old machines will work just fine, although gunsmithing often requires  special tools and fixturing. A peek at my *Steven's Favorite* build thread will give you an idea of what is required. 

Tom


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## KevinD

Holy cripes Tom, that's some awesome work.  I've only made it through the first page and feel the compulsion to go out to the shop and actually get something done, ha!

I know what you mean about stuff being made before cnc.  I think the thing that impressed me most about cncguns website was just how many steps were involved.  My impression of cnc machining has come from watching the 5 axis mill videos on youtube, though I know lathes and mills have the capability.  I guess I didn't realize production on a regular cnc mill actually involved about as many steps as a manual mill would.  One of my first inklings of possibly making a gun was probably 15 years ago reading Leon Uris' "Trinity".  It talked about the Irish blacksmith making a revolver and feeling the cylinder rotate to  check the timing.  

I'll definitely get through the rest of your Steven's Favorite as time allows.  Very nice work, thanks for pointing that out.


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## pdentrem

One thing about CNC, it can take a fair bit of time just doing the programming and rechecking stuff. When doing a single item, it can be simplier to just make it, but the CNC at times can allow a single setup to do many operations depending on the machine.


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## Tom Griffin

pdentrem said:


> One thing about CNC, it can take a fair bit of time just doing the programming and rechecking stuff. When doing a single item, it can be simplier to just make it, but the CNC at times can allow a single setup to do many operations depending on the machine.



That is true for dedicated production machines, but some machines are capable of conversational programming where you can program using a high level language right at the machine. I worked as a research machinist for a company that had a Hurco KMB1 which had that capability and all it was used for was one off parts. It could be programmed and used to machine a part with lots of contours and hole patterns in about a tenth the time as it would take to make on a rotary table. Wish I still had it.

Tom


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## pdentrem

We have a Haas that does conversational as well, the programmer/operator tends to not use it that way. Most of our stuff is short run with a pinch of long run, it gets programmed and the one offs are done on the manual machines. Getting time on the machine when you need it never seems to be at the same time.


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## Ulma Doctor

KevinD said:


> I guess the limits of peening the frame rails has inherent limitations for durability I'm interested in how folks build up worn out frame rails?  Since most 1911 frames seem to be 4140 what filler rod do you use?  Do you use a heat sink? pre-heat? post-heat?  Is it just a fools errand?  Thanks for any insights.
> 
> It just occurred to me that this may be better on the gunsmithing forum... c'est le vie



i have not tried tig welding a 1911 frame, but i know it's been done. i have also heard of brazing operations with phosphr/bronze and silver solder/alloy like the old timers used to do.
i must clean my 1911 too much, after 3500 rounds she barely looks broken in...


mike)


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## KevinD

Ulma Doctor said:


> i have not tried tig welding a 1911 frame, but i know it's been done. i have also heard of brazing operations with phosphr/bronze and silver solder/alloy like the old timers used to do.
> i must clean my 1911 too much, after 3500 rounds she barely looks broken in...



Looks pristine, my only caveat would be to not wear it out cleaning it.   I have a friend that's a master bullseye shooter that wore out his Les Baer wad gun because he was a bit compulsive about cleaning.  Of course I don't think he'd made master in just a few years without that aspect of his character (I've been in the great waiting room of expert for about 10 years now, ha!).  But then his gun had a full length guide rod and he had to take the bushing off with the barrel in battery.  Made me consider a bushing wrench that's open at the bottom and the handle comes from the top... that's on the list of roundtoits as well.


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## Tom Griffin

My son was willed his grandfathers WWII Colt 1911A1(1943 manufacture) that appears to have been rarely carried, let alone shot. It's pretty much in mint condition. He does like to shoot it and we've had numerous discussions about the importance of keeping it clean and cleaning it properly to preserve its value. All he uses is a toothbrush and a soft cloth, so hopefully that won't be too hard on the finish. Being caretaker of a historical artifact like this is a tough position to be in.

Tom


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## Ulma Doctor

TomG said:


> My son was willed his grandfathers WWII Colt 1911A1(1943 manufacture) that appears to have been rarely carried, let alone shot. It's pretty much in mint condition. He does like to shoot it and we've had numerous discussions about the importance of keeping it clean and cleaning it properly to preserve its value. All he uses is a toothbrush and a soft cloth, so hopefully that won't be too hard on the finish. Being caretaker of a historical artifact like this is a tough position to be in.
> 
> Tom



tom,
i feel you pain,
 a gun that is not used is completely useless..
an unused gun is priceless.. the eternal paradox
it's a kind of sacrilegious to have art and keep it locked up in a vault, my 2 cents anyway!
 mike)


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## Ulma Doctor

KevinD said:


> Looks pristine, my only caveat would be to not wear it out cleaning it.   I have a friend that's a master bullseye shooter that wore out his Les Baer wad gun because he was a bit compulsive about cleaning.  Of course I don't think he'd made master in just a few years without that aspect of his character (I've been in the great waiting room of expert for about 10 years now, ha!).  But then his gun had a full length guide rod and he had to take the bushing off with the barrel in battery.  Made me consider a bushing wrench that's open at the bottom and the handle comes from the top... that's on the list of roundtoits as well.



great idea with the bushing wrench!

i clean the old girl with baby towels and throw away the towels after the cleaning.
i almost never clean without complete disassembly.
i like the  MIL-L-46000B LSA WEAPONS OIL ,MEDIUM it's an excellent slippery lubricant and seems to protect nicely.
thanks for the compliment!
mike)


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## Rbeckett

Kevin,
I think that extreme caution should be excercised when attempting to weld on a weapon.  Guns are exposed to rather abrupt loads that are rated in the thousands of PSI and a weld failure or heat related failure could cause injury or death.  I am a retired welder and heavy truck mechanic and I would be very very carefull of attemting to repair such wear.  I would be afraid of altering the metals structure when I added filler and cause a weakness in the material.  I am not a gun smith or have experience with that type of wear, but it sounds like a very risky repair to undertake, especially if a new part can be had for replacement.  I would definately consult the manufacturers authorized repairs list and see if it is an approved repair first.  Then I would make certain I understood the exact procedure and had all of the required equipment in place before I attempted the job.  I am not trying to discourage, just hopefully prevent an accident or disaster.
Bob


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## Tom Griffin

I appreciate your caution Bob, but the rails on a 1911 simply guide the slide as the weapon cycles. They don't have to withstand any of the pressures developed by the gasses in the chamber like the barrel or to some extent the slide. As I pointed out, many 1911 slides are even made from aluminum, so even an unhardened steel rail (as in one that has been welded) will be much stronger. There is no hazard in welding on a 1911 rail other than the possibility of screwing it up, and even that can be repaired by additional welding. Now welding on the receiver of a revolver or any non-semiautomatic firearm is an entirely different story. In that case you had better know what you are doing because once welded, the receiver will need to be re-heat treated to original specs or risk catastrophic failure, i.e. a bomb in your face.

Tom


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## Johnm

You can TIG them up.  But don't run a continuos bead. Try to keep the heat to a min. The old school guys would braze them back in the day. It works too. All you are trying to do is tighten the fit.  Now on my custom 1911's, I send them to Briley in Houston tx and have them install the accurails. It's pricey, but nice.


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