# Building a Shaper experiences-



## ErichKeane (May 11, 2020)

Hi all-

I've once again made the mistake of looking at shapers and feel like I want one in some way or another.  I'm not sure how much I'd use it, or for what (though I might end up like Abom79 and just use it for just about everything, who knows!).  The Atlas 7" ones seem like a good deal, but they show up quite rarely in the Pac-NW and I made the mistake of not snatching the only one I've seen in years at the end of last year (or so?).

SO, I've thought of making one.  I have a couple of options that I wanted feedback/thoughts on.  Talk me into/out of something 

1- Strong arm hand shaper (http://www.martinmodel.com/MMPtools-subfiles/MMPtools-sub.html).  At $500 for a casting kit, this doesn't seem like a bad idea.  It seems small enough to put under a table.  It is 'cute', and would likely cut keyways/etc which is likely handle the workloads I've had use for a shaper in the past.

2- Gingery Shaper.  I bought the book.  It seems that most videos on youtube end up being an effort in casting, which I likely won't want to do.  Additionally, I've yet to see one that looks like a "really nice machine" rather than a garage project.  I have a mill/grinder/lathe, so I'd want whatever I make to LOOK like a good shaper.  But the videos I've seen on youtube make these look poorly designed/built, as well as both small capacity wise and large table-wise.

3- Acto Super 8 (https://www.machineryplans.com/product/acto-super-8-metal-shaper-plans/).  I splurged and bought the plans last night.  Turns out the plan maker is the only one to have actually MADE one.  That said, it looks really great!  Perhaps bigger than I need, and requires that I get a stick welder/learn what I'm doing, but perhaps the nicest?

SO, what should I do HM forum?  The realist in me is leaning toward #1 and to just use it to cut keyways when I need to .  The adventurer in me wants to do #3, but I've got no idea if I'd ever actually finish.  What would you do?


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## kb58 (May 11, 2020)

Not having room has saved me a fortune by keeping my my wandering eye from casting a wanting glance at interesting machinery.


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## Lo-Fi (May 11, 2020)

That super 8 looks like quite a nice machine...


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## frugalguido (May 11, 2020)

The down under Super 8 does have some nice features and probably can be built from scrap and/or modified to what you find. How did you find out that only one has been built? Too much work and cost to build?


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## ErichKeane (May 11, 2020)

frugalguido said:


> The down under Super 8 does have some nice features and probably can be built from scrap and/or modified to what you find. How did you find out that only one has been built? Too much work and cost to build?


I emailed the guy selling the plans, he's not familiar with anyone having built one (other than himself).  The plans are reasonably OK from what I see, so I imagine it is simply the amount of work involved.

It is actually not too bad from what I can see.  There aren't any particularly difficult operations (besides the obvious welding) that I can see, particularly once you have a mill.  It is just a HUGE project (212 drawings!), so I can imagine it is discouraging.


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## frugalguido (May 11, 2020)

I am interested in the Super 8 too, but more in the how/why of construction to apply to the shaper that i'm building,  a model of the Cincinnati XM-1, since it is also of welded construction.


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## Lo-Fi (May 11, 2020)

Small shapers do come up for sale here and there. Whenever I think about taking on projects like this, I tend to go looking for what's available used. 

I'd look at it like this: do you want a tool or a project? Make your decision based on that. 

Welded construction does sound appealing. Are the fundamental parts fairly simple, despite there being a lot of them?


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## ErichKeane (May 11, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Small shapers do come up for sale here and there. Whenever I think about taking on projects like this, I tend to go looking for what's available used.
> 
> I'd look at it like this: do you want a tool or a project? Make your decision based on that.
> 
> Welded construction does sound appealing. Are the fundamental parts fairly simple, despite there being a lot of them?


That is of course the question  

The fundamental parts are all pretty easy, and almost exclusively made out of plate, angle, and hollow square tube.  The parts are all seemingly pretty simple.

That said, I don't have a welder (and haven't stick welded, only did MIG), so I'm not sure if I'm up for a project THAT big.


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## Nutfarmer (May 11, 2020)

If you want a shaper it is easier to find a used one and restore it.


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## ErichKeane (May 11, 2020)

Nutfarmer said:


> If you want a shaper it is easier to find a used one and restore it.


They unfortunately show up pretty rarely in the Portland area.  I've only seen 1 in the last few years and I foolishly didn't jump on it!

I DID have an additional idea... A shaper attachment for the mill-head seems like it shouldn't be too bad.  I wouldn't have the table auto-feed, but I could at least do keyways and so forth.  I was thinking that it would be a pretty simple set of parts to do so.


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## NCjeeper (May 12, 2020)

How much room do you have? A lot of times you can get better deals on larger shapers because nobody wants them.


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## ErichKeane (May 12, 2020)

NCjeeper said:


> How much room do you have? A lot of times you can get better deals on larger shapers because nobody wants them.



Ive done that with my lathe and surface grinder already   It would require giving up more floor space than I'd want I think.  I'll already end up having to move my safe out of the shop for a shaper I think.  I have a pretty sizable shop, but I split it with wood-working (which takes up ~2/3).


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## ErichKeane (May 12, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Ive done that with my lathe and surface grinder already   It would require giving up more floor space than I'd want I think.  I'll already end up having to move my safe out of the shop for a shaper I think.  I have a pretty sizable shop, but I split it with wood-working (which takes up ~2/3).


Actually... a nice looking 7B is on Facebook marketplace at the moment about a 45 min drive from me.  Unfortunately its at $2k!


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## NCjeeper (May 12, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Unfortunately its at $2k!


Ouch. I sold my Atlas 7 for $1000 alittle over a year ago. It was complete.


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## ErichKeane (May 12, 2020)

NCjeeper said:


> Ouch. I sold my Atlas 7 for $1000 alittle over a year ago. It was complete.


Yeah, it doesn't come with a Vise either!  It DOES seem to be in nice shape otherwise, and would be worth an overpay, but not 2x.


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## ErichKeane (May 12, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Yeah, it doesn't come with a Vise either!  It DOES seem to be in nice shape otherwise, and would be worth an overpay, but not 2x.


HAH! I messaged her anyway asking if she was flexible on the price, and her response was that they go for $3500, so $2000 is a great deal 

Guessing I should go back to dreaming about making one!


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## matthewsx (May 12, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> HAH! I messaged her anyway asking if she was flexible on the price, and her response was that they go for $3500, so $2000 is a great deal
> 
> Guessing I should go back to dreaming about making one!



Wait a week, contact her again to take a look in person, then show up with the amount of cash you would spend on it. Most people negotiate much better when you bring your friend Benjamin 

John


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## ErichKeane (May 12, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Wait a week, contact her again to take a look in person, then show up with the amount of cash you would spend on it. Most people negotiate much better when you bring your friend Benjamin
> 
> John


  My plan was to wait a week or two and see if she changed her mind   She seemed quite sure she was right about it being worth 3500 (and a steal at 2000!), so hopefully the market will show her different.


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## matthewsx (May 12, 2020)

If not then another one will show up eventually. It's not like these things are in demand by 22-year-olds, the people who have them are all getting older and probably their heirs will be trying to figure out what to do with that old heavy chunk of metal grandpa left in the garage. I suspect your seller is in that category.

If it's only a 45 min drive it might be worthwhile to visit her in person and inspect the thing. When she tells you what it's worth again you can politely decline to pay the asking price and let her know what you're willing to pay. An actual offer from someone with cash may put you at the head of the line when she realizes the mortgage is due and/or she wants the thing out of her life.  

John


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## ErichKeane (May 12, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> If not then another one will show up eventually. It's not like these things are in demand by 22-year-olds, the people who have them are all getting older and probably their heirs will be trying to figure out what to do with that old heavy chunk of metal grandpa left in the garage. I suspect your seller is in that category.
> 
> If it's only a 45 min drive it might be worthwhile to visit her in person and inspect the thing. When she tells you what it's worth again you can politely decline to pay the asking price and let her know what you're willing to pay. An actual offer from someone with cash may put you at the head of the line when she realizes the mortgage is due and/or she wants the thing out of her life.
> 
> John


Offering someone 40% their asking price in person seems pretty insulting to everyone.  Turns out she's had it up for at least 2 weeks!

Frankly, I don't NEED a shaper. So I can wait until she's more reasonable.  It just makes me kick myself about the $700 one that was up about 6 months ago!


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## matthewsx (May 12, 2020)

But that is an actual data point, there was one sold for $700 or less back when the economy was kickin' a$$. Plus another confirmed sale for $1000 by a member on this thread.

I just turned down someone who offered me less than 40% of my asking price for a trailer I'm selling. I wasn't insulted at all, it was an offer and it didn't take me any effort to say no. It's one thing if you're trying to low-ball someone who doesn't know what they have, quite different if you actually have knowledge about what something should sell for and you're willing to pay a fair price.

John


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## ericc (May 12, 2020)

I think a reasonable 40% offer is not insulting.  I had a garage sale and tried to sell a power shear for $20.  There were no takers, and some low baller offered me $4 for it.  I told him $10 was the lowest I would go, and he wouldn't budge.  I didn't hold it against him.  He probably didn't need it all that much.  Neither did I, since I just lucked into two nice shears for a smoking deal and had to get rid of at least one of the three.  I ended up selling it at an Ebay auction for $49.  There are those guys at garage sales who say, if will fetch that much, why don't you just put it on Ebay?  I don't like to hear this unsolicited advice, but I will make very sure that my lowest acceptable price is way below what the item will fetch on Ebay.  I'm a sucker for a good bargainer, but not an obnoxious cheapskate.  By the way, somebody was selling one of those shapers in my neighborhood at a garage sale for $700.  It was gone quickly.  These things are really hard to find around here, even without a vise.


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## ErichKeane (May 12, 2020)

ericc said:


> I think a reasonable 40% offer is not insulting.  I had a garage sale and tried to sell a power shear for $20.  There were no takers, and some low baller offered me $4 for it.  I told him $10 was the lowest I would go, and he wouldn't budge.  I didn't hold it against him.  He probably didn't need it all that much.  Neither did I, since I just lucked into two nice shears for a smoking deal and had to get rid of at least one of the three.  I ended up selling it at an Ebay auction for $49.  There are those guys at garage sales who say, if will fetch that much, why don't you just put it on Ebay?  I don't like to hear this unsolicited advice, but I will make very sure that my lowest acceptable price is way below what the item will fetch on Ebay.  I'm a sucker for a good bargainer, but not an obnoxious cheapskate.  By the way, somebody was selling one of those shapers in my neighborhood at a garage sale for $700.  It was gone quickly.  These things are really hard to find around here, even without a vise.



Yeah, they don't show up very often here either, so I was figuring on an over-pay anyway (would go like $1200?), but $2000 seemed like too much for a tool I'd get a lot less use out of than my others.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 12, 2020)

I often tell (CL) sellers, look, I'm not a collector, I am just going to put this tool to use in my shop. I'm not going to pay a collector price for it. Here is what it is worth to me. Please get in touch if you are unable to find a buyer.

Now, having wasted all those words, I have never had a seller get back to me 

Something about the kind of seller who overprices their merchandise - probably think they're sitting on a gold mine, the money already spent in their heads.


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## ErichKeane (May 12, 2020)

ThinWoodsman said:


> I often tell (CL) sellers, look, I'm not a collector, I am just going to put this tool to use in my shop. I'm not going to pay a collector price for it. Here is what it is worth to me. Please get in touch if you are unable to find a buyer.
> 
> Now, having wasted all those words, I have never had a seller get back to me
> 
> Something about the kind of seller who overprices their merchandise - probably think they're sitting on a gold mine, the money already spent in their heads.


Heh, thats essentially what I did.  I sent her 1 final message saying that I realize she was probably pretty set in her valuing, but if she decides she'll take $1000, to let me know.  I'll continue under the assumption she'll die with it, and find something  else to do instead.

I'm somewhat considering finding a bunch of non welded parts to start on for the Acto Super 8.  If I can get it down to only a couple of parts that need welding, I can presumably have the local welding shop do it for me 

EDIT: Maybe not ! The plans are REALLY welding heavy... I've got a feeling I just wasted the 60 bucks on the plans :/


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## ericc (May 13, 2020)

How about learning how to weld?  It is really a hoot!  There's a lot of people on this site who can help you.

By the way, you can make a really simple shaper with some pieces of plate and a cylindrical ram that will fit in your lathe tool slot.  It can be used to make pulley key slots and simple gears.


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## cjtoombs (May 14, 2020)

Well, here's my 2 cents.  I have the castings for the strong arm shaper, haven't started it yet.  If you want to build very small projects, and you would like to try machining a casting set, it is the way to go.  The downside is that it's pretty tiny, I think it only has about a 4" stroke.  I bought it mainly because I'm a shaper nut and enjoy building things, not because I thought I was going to get a lot of work out of it (I'm down to only 5 shapers right now, including the casting kit).  

The Gingery shaper is probably more capable than the strong arm shaper, but unless you want to learn a lot about casting, it's probably not the way to go.

The Acto Super 8 looks like it would be a capable small shaper, but it also looks like the most complicated to build of the 3.  

My recommendation is that if you want to build one, pick one of the three that will give you a tool that you will use while building some skills in the process.  If you just want a shaper, I would widen my search area and find a used one.  Interestingly enough, I drove up to your area to pick up my 24" Cincinnati.  As was mentioned above, larger shapers tend to go for reasonable prices if the seller really wants to move it, as the only people interested in shapers anymore are hobbyists, and most don't have the space to use or equipment to move the big iron.


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## ErichKeane (May 14, 2020)

cjtoombs said:


> Well, here's my 2 cents.  I have the castings for the strong arm shaper, haven't started it yet.  If you want to build very small projects, and you would like to try machining a casting set, it is the way to go.  The downside is that it's pretty tiny, I think it only has about a 4" stroke.  I bought it mainly because I'm a shaper nut and enjoy building things, not because I thought I was going to get a lot of work out of it (I'm down to only 5 shapers right now, including the casting kit).
> 
> The Gingery shaper is probably more capable than the strong arm shaper, but unless you want to learn a lot about casting, it's probably not the way to go.
> 
> ...



Thanks!  The Strong Arm Feedback is exactly what I was looking for.  I've been spending my quarantine time after work doing on a pair of casting kits (A PM Research #3 steam engine, and now a Little Eagle Hit/Miss engine), so the small-reasonably quick project seemed like a fun idea.  

I REALLY don't think I want to do any casting.  I've heard mention of people making the Gingery without castings, but I presume that uses welding anyway.  That said, the design leaves a bit to be desired I think, having to open the side of the machine to adjust things, and the exposed clockworks.  That, and the more I see them, the more "home-made" they look, which is disappointing.

The Acto-8 is a BIG project it seems, which is overwhelming.  Also, it requires that I learn how to stick-weld, and buy a stick welder!  However, it is a pretty darn nice shaper from what I can tell.  I'm tempted to just buy the Harbor Freight Titanium 225 stick welder (seems to get good reviews) and start working.  The first steps are the 'stand', so it seems like it would be a good intro in a way that weld quality matters little.

I'm not sure I have much use for a shaper, but  "want one"   Abom79's videos I think got me hooked  The last time one showed up around me, (the $700 one!) I balked at having another tool in the shop.... The current one on ebay is way over priced (and she blocked me for offering $1000 ).


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## Lo-Fi (May 14, 2020)

Is there a reason you need to stick weld it instead of mig? Mig is _so_ much easier from the get-go. Also, this is the perfect project to learn if you were inclined. It's ten times easier getting decent welds on thick stuff than the car body gauge stuff most people end up starting with. 

Its funny, there's an odd dividing line between machinists and fabricators in the hobbyist world. Lots of YouTuber machinists I watch seem to spend ages doing stuff that would take me ten minutes with a welder, and anything that's cast can be fabricated within reason. My skill set spans both disciplines, and I'm very happy with that!


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## ErichKeane (May 14, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Is there a reason you need to stick weld it instead of mig? Mig is _so_ much easier from the get-go. Also, this is the perfect project to learn if you were inclined. It's ten times easier getting decent welds on thick stuff than the car body gauge stuff most people end up starting with.
> 
> Its funny, there's an odd dividing line between machinists and fabricators in the hobbyist world. Lots of YouTuber machinists I watch seem to spend ages doing stuff that would take me ten minutes with a welder, and anything that's cast can be fabricated within reason. My skill set spans both disciplines, and I'm very happy with that!



I DID take a MIG class at one point, but I'm leaning toward stick for 2 reasons:
1- Mig welders are expensive, and I don't have one.
2- The plans suggest using stick welds because they are often machined afterwards.  Apparently MIG can create problems machining the welds after the fact?

Most of the plans are essentially "weld a few things together, then machine this piece".


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## Lo-Fi (May 14, 2020)

Got ya. Some decent MIG machines about without breaking the bank, but big investment for one job.

MIG joints can be mildly hard occasionally, but I've never had a problem machining them. It's only ever the very outside, so a quick lick with a grinder is worst case on a particularly awkward joint, but I've actually never had call to do so. If you get some little pockets of slag in a stick weld it can be hard on tools too, though.


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## silence dogood (May 15, 2020)

I also ordered and received the Strong arm shaper from Martin Pattern.  When I got the package and opened it, it was missing the ram.  Called up the fellow that ran the outfit.  He explained that he had some new castings and was waiting for them to get annealed.  Had a nice chat. Turned out that he had taught at the same high school that I went to years earlier.  Nice guy.


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## ErichKeane (May 15, 2020)

Hmm...  I'm trying to read through the plans to the Acto.  It is a pretty massive project that is quite a bit overwhelming.  I'm still not sure what I'm going to do...  

I got the Gingery book last night and flipped through it, the 'cobbled together' look is apparently part of the design.  I think I'd regret making it.

The Acto is unbelievably overwhelming.  This seems like it could be a multi-year long project.  Out of my options, its clearly the nicest, but that comes with years of work!

The Martin looks cool, but I suspect I'd almost immediately feel like I wanted more machine.  

I think I'm at least short-term going to keep an eye out for a commercially made shaper in the PDX area.  Sadly they don't show up often (even overpriced!), and I don't think I'd be willing to way overpay for something like that (like the $2k Atlas!!!... though a shaper WORTH $2k I'd be willing to spring for).

I've got probably a few weeks on my current machining project (a hit/miss engine!), so perhaps I'll change my mind at the end of that.  But thanks everyone for your feedback!


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## silence dogood (May 15, 2020)

I meant to mention this earlier, but I had to find the source.  There is also a set of plans that you can download for free by vintage Projects . com  for a hand power shaper.  Look under metal and welding projects.  You use 1/2 inch steel plate and a 2" by 2" by 12" long steel bar and whatever else that's in the plans. Even though I have the strong arm by Martin Pattern, I'm still working on the vintage.


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## Manual Mac (May 15, 2020)

David It’s been my experience that mig welds can be much harder to machine than stick.
If you were a little closer i’d help weld or show you what little I know.
After following your Bob Shores engine build I have no doubt you can build one.
I have an old Lindsey reprint Shaper Operations book around here somewhere, send me a PM aI’ll try to find it and i’ll Mail it to you.


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## ErichKeane (May 15, 2020)

Manual Mac said:


> David It’s been my experience that mig welds can be much harder to machine than stick.
> If you were a little closer i’d help weld or show you what little I know.
> After following your Bob Shores engine build I have no doubt you can build one.
> I have an old Lindsey reprint Shaper Operations book around here somewhere, send me a PM aI’ll try to find it and i’ll Mail it to you.


Thanks for the kind words and the book offer!  I've sent you a PM.

I'm SOOO on the fence on the project, which is killing me.  On one hand, I'm pretty sure I could at least figure it out.  Also, for less than a commercial one, as the material costs on A36 is CHEAP comparatively.  I think for ~$200 you can make the entire base of the shaper.

On the other hand, it seems like a massive undertaking... I already feel out of my depth on the Bob Shores engine


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## Manual Mac (May 15, 2020)

Erich, sorry about the wrong name.
Kinda like Airplane “and don’t call me Shirley”


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## Lo-Fi (May 15, 2020)

I love that movie 

You're into the realms of "how to eat an elephant" with projects like this. One bite at a time. I'm going to buy a set of plans, I reckon this is one where it'll take shape really quickly but the last 10% will take 90% of the time. I'm used to projects like this, I restore steam locos when I'm not machining! 

I'll go buy a set of plans, I'm quite intrigued.


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## ErichKeane (May 15, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> I love that movie
> 
> You're into the realms of "how to eat an elephant" with projects like this. One bite at a time. I'm going to buy a set of plans, I reckon this is one where it'll take shape really quickly but the last 10% will take 90% of the time. I'm used to projects like this, I restore steam locos when I'm not machining!
> 
> I'll go buy a set of plans, I'm quite intrigued.


Ah!  Nice!  He emailed them as well as mailed, so I got them pretty quick.  It'd be nice to have someone to go along the build with when it comes time to bounce ideas off of.


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## Lo-Fi (May 15, 2020)

All paid up and downloaded, I'll cast an eye over it this eve. 

Would make an interesting thread if we both started builds at the same time! Hehe.


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## ErichKeane (May 15, 2020)

Haha, I got a feeling you're going to be ahead of me for quite a while.  I still don't have the welder nor any of the steel, and want to finish my engine project first (which probably has another 2-3 weeks left).  Hopefully I can use your build thread as a guide!


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## Lo-Fi (May 15, 2020)

Hehe. I've got plenty I need to finish! I'm almost done rebuilding a land rover bulkhead, then moving onto the chassis. Much welding. And around that I'm making a tool and cutter grinder out of an old broken vice, a lathe vertical slide, a band saw motor and some graphite for air bearings on the rotary tool holder. I've got my hands full too, but I'll get going soon  This is going to be fun!


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## ErichKeane (May 15, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Hehe. I've got plenty I need to finish! I'm almost done rebuilding a land rover bulkhead, then moving onto the chassis. Much welding. And around that I'm making a tool and cutter grinder out of an old broken vice, a lathe vertical slide, a band saw motor and some graphite for air bearings on the rotary tool holder. I've got my hands full too, but I'll get going soon  This is going to be fun!


Those sound like some fun projects! My buddy told me today he can have his Miller stick welder live at my shop for a while (he doesn't use it much in the burbs!), So I might just have to do this thing  I'm spending the afternoon moving my gun safes out of my shop and into the garage (plus cleaning up some stuff) so I'll have room to both work on the project and to put it when I'm done!

I think I have to tinker with my bandsaw as well to get it to start cutting straight.


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## Lo-Fi (May 15, 2020)

Perfect! Alright, let's do this! 

If you want some pointers for brushing up on stick welding, look up weld.com and Welding Tips And Tricks on YouTube.
Just to get some hood time in, I'll join you and stick weld too. Been a while, but I was taught arc welding by an old boy who used to volunteer at the railway in his retirement. He'd worked on oil rigs, under sea pipelines, nuclear power stations and all sorts. Absolute legend and so happy to pass on his knowledge. Was a formidable team with the retired platemaker that used to turn up - I learned so much from those two.


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## savarin (May 15, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> 2- The plans suggest using stick welds because they are often machined afterwards.  Apparently MIG can create problems machining the welds after the fact?



I am not sure where this bit of "lore" comes from but I've machined many mig and stick welds with absolutely no problems.


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## ErichKeane (May 15, 2020)

savarin said:


> I am not sure where this bit of "lore" comes from but I've machined many mig and stick welds with absolutely no problems.


The cost difference is the bigger difference maker for me. A free-to-use stick vs $1000 to setup mig makes a huge difference


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## Aaron_W (May 16, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> I REALLY don't think I want to do any casting.  I've heard mention of people making the Gingery without castings, but I presume that uses welding anyway.  *That said, the design leaves a bit to be desired I think, having to open the side of the machine to adjust things, and the exposed clockworks. * That, and the more I see them, the more "home-made" they look, which is disappointing.



That actually doesn't seem to be uncommon on commercial shapers, at least the small ones. I've watched a bunch of videos on different shapers and was surprised that several require getting into the machine's inner workings to adjust the stroke.


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## Lo-Fi (May 16, 2020)

Looks to be a really well thought out design, but I don't much like the drawing style. So many drawings because they've split components - and sometimes even views of components -into separate files, so it's nowhere near as scary as it seems!

Lots of this could be high-def plasma or laser cut and would save a huge amount of time. We're doing lots of that on the loco. It often doesn't make sense to spend hours messing around making a bracket or flange when it's ~£8 or something to get one laser cut and delivered. You pay less for material too, as it's bought in in bulk by the cutting place and you just pay for what you use. Might be worth looking into for this, it'll take a lot of grunt work out. If we weren't opposite side of the pond it would make a lot of sense to get it ordered as one batch from somewhere.

External stroke adjustment would be great, but that's a whole lot of crazy mechanism, bevel gears and complication. I love that it incorporates auto side and down-feed, though. They're lovely features to have on a small machine.

EDIT: Some of these drawings are _dreadful_. Proper general arrangement drawings and a few isometrics where appropriate would have made the world of difference, as would sticking to the tried and tested standard for how to lay out engineering drawings. Why the parts and views are marked up with letters rather than part numbers and the correct name on the drawing is beyond me. I know it's in the wall of text, but that's not the way to do it for quick reference. The design looks very sound, but there's going to be some discussion needed to demystify the drawings here and there! I'll ask if they'll give us permission to post snippets of the drawings here to discuss...


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## ErichKeane (May 16, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Looks to be a really well thought out design, but I don't much like the drawing style. So many drawings because they've split components - and sometimes even views of components -into separate files, so it's nowhere near as scary as it seems!



The drawings themselves are pretty awkward which makes it that much harder for me to read 



Lo-Fi said:


> Lots of this could be high-def plasma or laser cut and would save a huge amount of time. We're doing lots of that on the loco. It often doesn't make sense to spend hours messing around making a bracket or flange when it's ~£8 or something to get one laser cut and delivered. You pay less for material too, as it's bought in in bulk by the cutting place and you just pay for what you use. Might be worth looking into for this, it'll take a lot of grunt work out. If we weren't opposite side of the pond it would make a lot of sense to get it ordered as one batch from somewhere.


That is a nice thought!  I'm not sure at all how to go about that though   I might make you take the lead and figure out who/what I can do on this side of the pond 

External stroke adjustment would be great, but that's a whole lot of crazy mechanism, bevel gears and complication. I love that it incorporates auto side and down-feed, though. They're lovely features to have on a small machine.



Lo-Fi said:


> EDIT: Some of these drawings are _dreadful_. Proper general arrangement drawings and a few isometrics where appropriate would have made the world of difference, as would sticking to the tried and tested standard for how to lay out engineering drawings. Why the parts and views are marked up with letters rather than part numbers and the correct name on the drawing is beyond me. I know it's in the wall of text, but that's not the way to do it for quick reference. The design looks very sound, but there's going to be some discussion needed to demystify the drawings here and there! I'll ask if they'll give us permission to post snippets of the drawings here to discuss...



Right?!  I spent a few days examining just the 'stand' part and was unable to figure out a few things for a long time.  I don't know why he insists labeling his 'views' with letters instead of Letters, it is incredibly distracting.  I do very much like the design, but the drawings leave A LOT to be desired.


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## ErichKeane (May 16, 2020)

Also,another complication I have:  Getting metric metals is actually surprisingly much more expensive!  I'll ALSO likely have to be adjusting plans to account for being "close".  For example, the stand uses 40x40x3mm square tube,but I'll likely have to do 1.5"x1.5"x 1/8" (roughly 38.1x38.1x3.175mm).

For the most part it shouldn't matter, but I have that heavy lifting to deal with 

As far as the collaboration, we could possibly do so in private if you'd wish. Feel free to email me, my firstname.lastname@verizon.net << obviously fill those in


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## ErichKeane (May 16, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> That actually doesn't seem to be uncommon on commercial shapers, at least the small ones. I've watched a bunch of videos on different shapers and was surprised that several require getting into the machine's inner workings to adjust the stroke.


The Atlas 7B I watched a video on had external adjustments for most of the things which I liked.  That said, I think I've been bullyed into making the Acto Super 8, which DOES have internal stroke adjustment.  However I suspect the stepover adjustment being easily accessible is way more important on such a small shaper.


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## Lo-Fi (May 16, 2020)

Cool, I'll give you a shout. I'm redrawing various parts in CAD, which means I can produce decent drawings we can work off for critical components. Adapting for imperial stock doesn't look to be difficult at all. Getting CAD to spit out imperial measurements is easy too, should you prefer. 
The flywheel and crank arm drawings are particularity horrible, and I gave up looking at the stand. Luckily the stand and whatnot are not critical. As long as you get the general idea it's all good, so using imperial stock rather than metric won't do any harm. The bar stock all gets machined, so no big deal what size it comes in - you're all good there.


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## frugalguido (May 16, 2020)

I would love to see you guys build this shaper. To me the internal adjustment isn't a big deal, on the Atlas you have to take off the side door to oil the sliding block/pivot points every time you use it anyway. For US based people you might try these people for laser cutting, their right a round the corner from me. They ship all over the county,

 sendcutsend.com


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## ErichKeane (May 16, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Cool, I'll give you a shout. I'm redrawing various parts in CAD, which means I can produce decent drawings we can work off for critical components. Adapting for imperial stock doesn't look to be difficult at all. Getting CAD to spit out imperial measurements is easy too, should you prefer.
> The flywheel and crank arm drawings are particularity horrible, and I gave up looking at the stand. Luckily the stand and whatnot are not critical. As long as you get the general idea it's all good, so using imperial stock rather than metric won't do any harm. The bar stock all gets machined, so no big deal what size it comes in - you're all good there.



Oh great! I was afraid I was going to have to figure out CAD  

I think I've figured out the stand, it seems pretty nice but the drawings are terrible. It DOES have some mount/adjustment  for the column.

I was probably going to start with the stand as is, simply because it seems like good welding practice and intro to the plans themselves! I presumed just getting the outer dimensions right was most important.

Presumably the laser cut pieces will start as a different thickness for me as well, but I didn't really notice any that mattered too much.


frugalguido said:


> I would love to see you guys build this shaper. To me the internal adjustment isn't a big deal, on the Atlas you have to take off the side door to oil the sliding block/pivot points every time you use it anyway. For US based people you might try these people for laser cutting, their right a round the corner from me. They ship all over the county,
> 
> sendcutsend.com


That's awesome! Thank you for the link!


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## Aaron_W (May 16, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> The Atlas 7B I watched a video on had external adjustments for most of the things which I liked.  That said, I think I've been bullyed into making the Acto Super 8, which DOES have internal stroke adjustment.  However I suspect the stepover adjustment being easily accessible is way more important on such a small shaper.



The Atlas does, I only point out that many don't because what appears crude on the Gingery may simply be practical. Shapers require a lot of lubrication, so you are going to get into the inner workings before starting work anyway, making internal adjustment less inconvenient than it first seems. It does sound like the Acto is a more refined design. I think the Gingery stuff is neat, but it does tend to have a bit of a Mad Max machine shop vibe to it.     

Good luck with your project, and I hope you guys post build threads, to track your progress. I thought building a shaper was going to be the only way I would have one. The prices have gone crazy but they do turn up at reasonable prices occasionally,
Most assuredly you are setting yourself up to find the mother of all deals on a shaper, just as you finish your project.


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## NCjeeper (May 16, 2020)

A nice complete Atlas 7B just got listed for sale on the PM forum. Asking $1700. A little bit of a road trip cause its in Texas.


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## Lo-Fi (May 17, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> I was probably going to start with the stand as is, simply because it seems like good welding practice and intro to the plans themselves! I presumed just getting the outer dimensions right was most important.



Sounds like a plan. The lovely thing about fabrication is if you stuff it up it's little work to rectify. Not like bozo-ing a casting where it's half a day of agony over how best to put it right. Grind it off, re-weld it! I reckon I'll freestyle my stand and motor drive to suit what I have to hand or can find easily. I'm way past falling into the trap of making something to drawing, then to find the thing it's supposed to mount isn't easily available over here. As long as the chain lines up and you get roughly the right ratios between the motor and flywheel it's all good. 

Yep, got the CAD covered  I'll produce some decent drawings for us to work off or it'll be painful. I 3D model then make drawings and a list of operations even for the little projects I do for myself. I've found it actually saves time and prevents a load of mistakes. It's s good sanity check that everything fits together too, I've got the flywheel and crank arm modeled up already:







Aaron_W said:


> I hope you guys post build threads, to track your progress.





Aaron_W said:


> The prices have gone crazy



Blame Abom79  hehe. There will be a build thread, for sure! I'll probably film and YouTube my build as it's something interesting and unique.


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## ErichKeane (May 17, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Sounds like a plan. The lovely thing about fabrication is if you stuff it up it's little work to rectify. Not like bozo-ing a casting where it's half a day of agony over how best to put it right. Grind it off, re-weld it! I reckon I'll freestyle my stand and motor drive to suit what I have to hand or can find easily. I'm way past falling into the trap of making something to drawing, then to find the thing it's supposed to mount isn't easily available over here. As long as the chain lines up and you get roughly the right ratios between the motor and flywheel it's all good.
> 
> Yep, got the CAD covered  I'll produce some decent drawings for us to work off or it'll be painful. I 3D model then make drawings and a list of operations even for the little projects I do for myself. I've found it actually saves time and prevents a load of mistakes. It's s good sanity check that everything fits together too, I've got the flywheel and crank arm modeled up already:
> 
> ...



That is great! 1 HP motors are pretty plentiful here, so I will likely just find an inexpensive one and use that.

I'm glad you're doing CAD   I realize I probably spend a bunch of time in my shop trying to figure out shop drawings, but I use shop-time to escape my computer-job so doing CAD is the last thing I want to do.

That flywheel/crank arm model is fantastic! With these drawings, I'm absolutely sure your CAD work is going to help us immensely!  After reading these plans, I suspect you'll be able to get money out of your CAD drawings for anyone who owns these plans and is trying to figure out what the heck is going on!

As far as a build thread, I'll definitely do THAT.  I don't have anything but a cell phone for video/etc (plus no mount or anything), so I won't be doing youtube.  I can still film hand-held though to show it off


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## Lo-Fi (May 17, 2020)

Don't think I'll do the entire thing, just critical bits. Comes together quickly:




Worth the work, it'll save hours of head scratching in the shop - makes it that much more enjoyable.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 17, 2020)

Thanks for the reviews on the Acto plans. I was considering getting them, mostly for perusal but partly with an eye toward making a hand-shaper one day, but it sounds like they do not make very insightful reading.

One of these days, I'll tackle the martin model hand shaper. Have a small Ammco but hey, the power goes out a lot 'round these parts


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## ErichKeane (May 17, 2020)

ThinWoodsman said:


> Thanks for the reviews on the Acto plans. I was considering getting them, mostly for perusal but partly with an eye toward making a hand-shaper one day, but it sounds like they do not make very insightful reading.
> 
> One of these days, I'll tackle the martin model hand shaper. Have a small Ammco but hey, the power goes out a lot 'round these parts


The seller is a pretty darn good machine designer, he fits some fantastic features into this shaper.  However, the plans themselves look like he marked up some MS-Paint drawings. The plans themselves lean VERY heavily on on a text document where describes things.

So far, I've learned more about how a shaper works by watching Makercise(making the Gingery) and Tubalcain's videos on shapers.


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## Lo-Fi (May 17, 2020)

ThinWoodsman said:


> Thanks for the reviews on the Acto plans. I was considering getting them, mostly for perusal but partly with an eye toward making a hand-shaper one day, but it sounds like they do not make very insightful reading.
> 
> One of these days, I'll tackle the martin model hand shaper. Have a small Ammco but hey, the power goes out a lot 'round these parts



Don't get me wrong, the design is excellent and worth the beer tokens. It's really well thought out and has excellent features. The plans do, sadly, leave a lot to be desired, so you won't learn a lot just from leafing through them. 

I've built a few small Hemmingway projects, all of which came with beautiful plans in "standard" format with nice general arrangement, shaded isometrics and detailed build instructions. They did not require endless to and fro between the drawings and notes - all the pertinent info was on the drawings, so once you'd read through the suggested sequence of ops, all you needed was the annotated drawing to hand.


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## Lo-Fi (May 18, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> The seller is a pretty darn good machine designer, he fits some fantastic features into this shaper. However, the plans themselves look like he marked up some MS-Paint drawings. The plans themselves lean VERY heavily on on a text document where describes things.



First catastrophe! Luckily in CAD 

Lack of General Arrangement is particularly crippling. So much so that I managed to draw the crank arm and associated parts upside down, backwards and a mirror image. At fault here is drawing 17 which is drawn from two sides of each of the stiffener brackets and the counter-sinks shown on the wrong side along with horrendous hole dimensioning. I'd have been really peeved if I'd been making this in metal!


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## ErichKeane (May 18, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> First catastrophe! Luckily in CAD
> 
> Lack of General Arrangement is particularly crippling. So much so that I managed to draw the crank arm and associated parts upside down, backwards and a mirror image. At fault here is drawing 17 which is drawn from two sides of each of the stiffener brackets and the counter-sinks shown on the wrong side along with horrendous hole dimensioning. I'd have been really peeved if I'd been making this in metal!



Holy wow... that drawing is special.

I hate how inconsistent he is with the use of the letters.  I could get over them if they were consistently used, but sometimes they mean different parts, sometimes they mean different views, and sometimes he mixes two in the same drawing.

I can definitely see how easy that would be to mess up.


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## Lo-Fi (May 18, 2020)

Your comment about MS paint hits the nail right on the head! 

Few more bits not making sense... The pin adjuster location, for example. It doesn't fit in the slot and won't allow proper range of adjustment as drawn unless I've missed something pretty fundamental. I'll update as I slog through it


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## ErichKeane (May 18, 2020)

Feel free to share the drawing/what you mean and perhaps I can put another set of eyes on it.  

That said... I'm positive after looking more into the drawings that I wouldn't want to do this project on my own.  I'm REALLY glad you're willing to take the plunge with me!  I fear how many issues we're going to find with the plans as we go along based on how poorly they are laid out.

Additionally, I noticed an couple of times he refers to things in not the way I'd think.  For example, DR#6: He mentions a 20 x 15 mm cutout section as clearance for the drive chain.  However, if you look at his drawing:
from the front view it is 20x10.
From the LH view, it is 10x15.
From the bottom it is 15x20.  

I don't know why the heck you'd refer to it based on the 'bottom'. If there was any other cutout on the part I'm sure I would make a serious mistake on this one.


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## Lo-Fi (May 18, 2020)

It'll be fun doing a joint project even if we're not working on the same actual parts or even on the same continent! It's quite fun, I got to work with lots of cool people in a similar way when I made my Kerbal Space Program mod. Different discipline, but the same thing really. 

I've got a few more bits to model before I produce any drawings - the ram ways, spindle and a few other major pieces really make sense of all the worky bits and most importantly make sure they'll work - then I'll start sending stuff your way to sanity check and discuss. 

Did you say you had some email contact with the guys who made/sell the plans? If so, mind pinging them an email asking if we can post certain drawings here to discuss? I'm sure we could claim its educational use, but better to have an OK in writing from them, then we're clear. Hopefully they won't object!


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## ErichKeane (May 18, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> It'll be fun doing a joint project even if we're not working on the same actual parts or even on the same continent! It's quite fun, I got to work with lots of cool people in a similar way when I made my Kerbal Space Program mod. Different discipline, but the same thing really.
> 
> I've got a few more bits to model before I produce any drawings - the ram ways, spindle and a few other major pieces really make sense of all the worky bits and most importantly make sure they'll work - then I'll start sending stuff your way to sanity check and discuss.
> 
> Did you say you had some email contact with the guys who made/sell the plans? If so, mind pinging them an email asking if we can post certain drawings here to discuss? I'm sure we could claim its educational use, but better to have an OK in writing from them, then we're clear. Hopefully they won't object!


I only emailed via ebay, but I can ask.


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## Manual Mac (May 18, 2020)

Hi Erich. I located the book (big magazine?) Lindsey reprint. Shaper Operations. Great stuff.
Just dropped it off @ post office.
This oughta set the hook for your build.
Enjoy. Steve


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## ErichKeane (May 18, 2020)

Manual Mac said:


> Hi Erich. I located the book (big magazine?) Lindsey reprint. Shaper Operations. Great stuff.
> Just dropped it off @ post office.
> This oughta set the hook for your build.
> Enjoy. Steve


Thats wonderful, thank you!


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## Lo-Fi (May 19, 2020)

There's the heart of it:





Your browser is not able to display this video.





















I'm almost ready to start making some actual drawings having ironed out a few silly quirks. 
One thing I really don't get it the use of ball bearings in the pin joints attaching the crank arm to the frame and ram. Bearings don't like running over a small rotation angle and back again, it tends to wear them strangely. Good old bronze bushes seem like a better choice here, much as it's something else to oil. The pockets with shoulders on the outside are also going to make it hell to machine accurately. Hopefully this shows it clearly:





Not dimensioned as I don't want to run into any copyright issues on an open forum, but you get the idea.

I've not even looked at the slideways, feeds, table and other bits and pieces in detail yet - that's a whole other project!


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## ErichKeane (May 19, 2020)

Wow, that video looks cool!  It seems the design has some really solid elements to it!

That outside shoulder IS going to be hell... I think I can do it with a boring bar, but I can see why it would be a pain to make.  If I mess that up, I might consider making that in 3 pieces, with a screw-on plate as a retainer for the bearings.


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## f350ca (May 19, 2020)

My 18 inch Pearless has that same bottom link. The Logan didn't.
Why not use a snap ring to capture the bearing?

Greg


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## ErichKeane (May 19, 2020)

f350ca said:


> My 18 inch Pearless has that same bottom link. The Logan didn't.
> Why not use a snap ring to capture the bearing?
> 
> Greg


Ooh, thats a good idea!

@Lo-Fi: This is the response I got from the seller (in addition to some "I don't know why you are so confused!!"): 

*Re your suggestion of posting portions of the plans on your forum; although I understand your motives are honest, I am sorry but in no circumstances would we ever sanction this. You must understand  from our prospective this is a precedent we have no wish to occur as it would be totally out of our control.*


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## ThinWoodsman (May 20, 2020)

Just post the drawings in a PM so they're not on the public pages.

BTW, Village Press (Home Shop Machinist publisher) had a "build your own shaper" series in 1999. It is collected in the Projects 8 book.


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## Lo-Fi (May 20, 2020)

I figured that might be the case. A shame. I'm looking into whether I can post _my_ drawings. Technically I own the copyright on them. Trying to figure out whether the design itself - in terms of appearance and dimensions - falls under copyright is tricky. In any case, I can't help but feel they've been rather short sighted, but what can you do. It does look pretty solid, but there are one or two bits I think could be improved, and if I'm going that far it becomes an original design...

The snap rings may well be the best way, but I'm still tempted to go with bushings. Does you shaper have bearings or bushings @f350ca ?


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## f350ca (May 20, 2020)

The Peerless is really old, haven't found much information about them. Its all bushings, no bearings anywhere.

Greg


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## ErichKeane (May 20, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> I figured that might be the case. A shame. I'm looking into whether I can post _my_ drawings. Technically I own the copyright on them. Trying to figure out whether the design itself - in terms of appearance and dimensions - falls under copyright is tricky. In any case, I can't help but feel they've been rather short sighted, but what can you do. It does look pretty solid, but there are one or two bits I think could be improved, and if I'm going that far it becomes an original design...
> 
> The snap rings may well be the best way, but I'm still tempted to go with bushings. Does you shaper have bearings or bushings @f350ca ?


I don't have a good idea on this... I suspect it falls under derivative works, and would at least be questionable.  If you redesign a component, I'd be sure that would be an original work though...

I agree that its short-sighted, but he also doesn't believe there is anything wrong with his drawings, so *shrug*.  I'm definitely interested in any improvements you come up with!  Particularly ones that I can use to get things laser cut


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## ErichKeane (May 20, 2020)

So update:  The woman with the Atlas seems to have come to her senses and accepted my offer    I'm going to pick it up this afternoon!


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## frugalguido (May 20, 2020)

Good for you! If you have any questions I can help you.


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## ErichKeane (May 20, 2020)

frugalguido said:


> Good for you! If you have any questions I can help you.


I'll likely need to come up with a vise for it, I'm probably just going to build one if I cannot find one easy enough.

That said, Lo-Fi, I think I'm going to be much less motivated to build one now, unless the 7B disappoints :/  Sorry you're on your own.

I'd love to talk through issues you come across with the plans though (if you need more eyes) as well as view your build video/thread!


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## Lo-Fi (May 20, 2020)

That's fantastic! Pop a thread up as you go through getting it up and running! 

I'll start a build thread for this, it'll be a slow burn of a project for sure.


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## cjtoombs (May 20, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> I'll likely need to come up with a vise for it, I'm probably just going to build one if I cannot find one easy enough.
> 
> That said, Lo-Fi, I think I'm going to be much less motivated to build one now, unless the 7B disappoints :/  Sorry you're on your own.
> 
> I'd love to talk through issues you come across with the plans though (if you need more eyes) as well as view your build video/thread!



You can find those vises on eBay, but they are pricey.  The Grizzly H7577 looks like it might be made to work, the mounting would need to be changed.  Whatever you decide to do, it needs to be pretty low profile.  The original vise is about  3 1/8" tall.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 20, 2020)

Congrats on the Atlas. 

The vise on my Ammco is not all that great, and it is factory-o-riginal. You're probably better off making one. There are articles out there that are shaper-specific (I think Rudy Kouhoupt has one), but some of the low-profile vises made for mill tables would work as well: fixed jaw is a bar bolted to the table, moving jaw is on pins and/or guided by additional bars bolted to the table, with a simple 3/8" bolt acting as a lead screww. Lotsa options.

Also, for just starting out, remember you can lower the table to give something like 6" clearance, maybe more (not near the machine now). A toolmaker's vise could be used for a fair bit of work, assuming you have one lying around. Deal with the larger projects once you've got the shaper going and your selection of toolbits settled on (a much bigger concern than the vise, really).


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## frugalguido (May 21, 2020)

The Atlas vise is great if you need to angular cuts because it rotates, but you sacrifice height. If it was me I would make a copy of the small EMCO mill vises, which milled from stock, is pretty low in height. You run out of height real quick on the 7B.


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## Firstram (May 22, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> I'll start a build thread for this, it'll be a slow burn of a project for sure.



Please do!


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## cjtoombs (May 23, 2020)

Just looked at eBay sold listings today for the 7B and vise.  Least expensive vise sold for 250, free shipping, most expensive 500 free shipping.   2 7B shapers sold both with new paint, original legs, one with original vise, one with wrong vise, 1900 and 2400.  Man, I'm glad I got mine when the gettin was good.  I even managed to get an original index center for it for a reasonable price.


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## ErichKeane (May 23, 2020)

cjtoombs said:


> Just looked at eBay sold listings today for the 7B and vise.  Least expensive vise sold for 250, free shipping, most expensive 500 free shipping.   2 7B shapers sold both with new paint, original legs, one with original vise, one with wrong vise, 1900 and 2400.  Man, I'm glad I got mine when the gettin was good.  I even managed to get an original index center for it for a reasonable price.


Yikes, those are crazy prices!  I did $1200 for mine, but it didn't have a vise.  I'm going to make a 2 part vise soon, but I'm waiting on some ground rod at the moment.


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## Lo-Fi (May 23, 2020)

Lots of noise about shapers on YouTube, so that probably explains the price rise. We'll call it "The Abom effect". 

I've given up trying to decipher Acto drawings, taken the general ideas and been going with my own design. Goals are to make it simple with the smallest selection of stock sizes possible; mostly bright mild steel flat and bar and minimal machining. Ditched the ball bearings in the crank arm pivots in favour of bushings and simplifying them. Crank arm slideways will be square ground tool steel stock, which saves machining it into a funny L shape and surface grinding after. Kinda looking into using linear rails for the ram slideways too: cast iron stock is _expensive_ and there's a lot of fussy machining required. Other slideways are up for debate. We may be heading for an open source shaper design!


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## frugalguido (May 23, 2020)

Funny I too was also thinking about using linear rails for a shaper too. Brings me to a question, " If today a machine designer today was designing a metal shaper what would he do?" That's why I have been studying the "Cincinnati all metal shaper" patents, which was at it time probably the most advanced design of a metal shaper. I really like the screw ram, seems better than the crank/gear/linkage, maybe simpler with todays motion control systems.


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## craniac (May 23, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> We may be heading for an open source shaper design!



Now you've got my attention!

Tim


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## Lo-Fi (May 23, 2020)

frugalguido said:


> Funny I too was also thinking about using linear rails for a shaper too. Brings me to a question, " If today a machine designer today was designing a metal shaper what would he do?" That's why I have been studying the "Cincinnati all metal shaper" patents, which was at it time probably the most advanced design of a metal shaper. I really like the screw ram, seems better than the crank/gear/linkage, maybe simpler with todays motion control systems.



I'll have to look those up! Screw ram sounds rather interesting, for sure. I'm intrigued! The genius feature of how the crank arm is arranged gives the double speed return stroke and max force going forward. I love that kind of elegant simplicity in a design. 

Only reservation I have about linear rails would be robustness. Cast iron ways have such an enormous bearing surface compared to any ball bearing based rail system. Only one way to find out for sure if they're up to it, though  



craniac said:


> Now you've got my attention!
> 
> Tim



If I were to sell plans, how many would I sell? A dozen over as many years? Pfff. I'd rather have the fun of collaborating with you guys and end up with a better design because of it. Hopefully we'll all be able to enjoy seeing a few others have a go at making one too, probably moving the design forward in the process. It's far more satisfying than the potential financial reward IMHO. 

As I said further back in the thread, I've been down this road before with the KSP game expansion (wheel, caterpillar tracks, anti grav silliness) I wrote, and got the fun of seeing tens of thousands of people download and enjoy my work. Some joined in and helped me too - about a dozen people around the world. Something I'm still really proud of.


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## frugalguido (May 23, 2020)

Here are some images of the ram and screw drive from the "all metal shaper" 





Front picture of the ram, made with Cor-ten steel, triangular in shape. It is interesting that they used Formica type material for the ways, just more food for thought.


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## Lo-Fi (May 23, 2020)

Now that's what I'm talking about! Thanks, the triangular ram gives real food for thought. Formica is an interesting choice indeed, though I've seen some kind of plastic used on mill ways during rebuilds lately. I guess it was the weapon of choice at the time. 

Open to any input on this - the more the better. I'll look up that Cinci design, see if I can get a little more detail.


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## frugalguido (May 23, 2020)

The whole patent is downloadable on line. It is very interesting on how they designed it, I just think that using modern electrical motion controls to replace the hydraulics /gearing would be simpler today. It truly was made to be high speed,       (screw driven ram and light weight construction of the ram, thus being capable of using carbide tooling. Also to note the feeds for the table, both vertical and horizontal at the same time for preselectable angle feeds( think of doing dovetails, no topside adjustments). Since it is all made from steel, no castings, I think that it  might able to be made in the homeshop.


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## Lo-Fi (May 23, 2020)

Sounds like a fantastic source of inspiration, I'll go take a look. Triangular ram has really got me thinking.... The joy of cad is that I can get a good grip on how the mechanics work with whatever I design. Always stuff that crops up when cutting metal, but gets 90% of it ironed out.


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## matthewsx (May 23, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> I'll have to look those up! Screw ram sounds rather interesting, for sure. I'm intrigued! The genius feature of how the crank arm is arranged gives the double speed return stroke and max force going forward. I love that kind of elegant simplicity in a design.
> 
> Only reservation I have about linear rails would be robustness. Cast iron ways have such an enormous bearing surface compared to any ball bearing based rail system. Only one way to find out for sure if they're up to it, though
> 
> ...



I tried to learn KSP a while back but could only succeed in crashing

But, and opensource/copyleft design for a shaper or any other machine tools is something that interests my very much. I watched with interest the open source multi-machine project 









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But sadly it's designer is unable to continue and so is Yahoo Groups....

I'm guessing you're using FreeCAD for drawing and if not, why not? I'm pretty committed to opensource as a much better process for design than proprietary models and would definitely be interested in participating. My CAD skills are almost non-existent but I'm reading the book and learning since I need it for using the CNC mill I built. 

Maybe a video call for those interested would be a good idea, or just start a new thread on here. 

John


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## Aaron_W (May 23, 2020)

A shaper vise and tool holders would attract the most attention as they are often missing on used shapers, as well as being needed for a complete DIY shaper build.


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## frugalguido (May 24, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Sounds like a fantastic source of inspiration, I'll go take a look. Triangular ram has really got me thinking.... The joy of cad is that I can get a good grip on how the mechanics work with whatever I design. Always stuff that crops up when cutting metal, but gets 90% of it ironed out.



Here is a picture looking from the front of the ram. Notice that the triangular ram is supported on all three sides in the corners. I would imagine that it makes it very stiff and allows the ram to be made of thin material, thus lighter weight. Also the ram slides are the entire length of the ram, so fully supported. Maybe linear rails could be used instead, although the original idea is simple.


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## Lo-Fi (May 24, 2020)

I've been wading through the patent deciphering it. Quite fascinating - a great find. High speed did seem their goal and there are some interesting features, such as a spring that gets compressed on the backward stroke. That's a great idea that I'll be using if possible. For a small shaper - we're looking at about 8.5" stroke - it seems entirely reasonable to go for high speed capability and open up options for carbide. 
Still mulling over the triangular ram and use of something other than cast iron for ways. Linear bearing rails just don't "feel" right, if you know what I mean? A triangular ram, on the other hand, makes complete sense. It's really just a case of figuring out the best material and design for the ways. I'll keep thinking on it!


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## ErichKeane (May 24, 2020)

With a triangular ram, you actually don't need complicated ways.  They can simply be slider plates. Something like brass/bronze plates (or CI if you want), or HDPE might work.You can save money by making them thin plate for the contact surfaces (since they don't have to be particularly accurate other than consistent thickness) that are easily swappable.


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## frugalguido (May 24, 2020)

I was thinking of doing the shaper in quarter scale = 10.5" stroke or maybe fifth scale=8.5" stroke. At quarter scale the ram would be approximately 4" on a slide, not too bad. The problem I see if you go too small of scale, is welding the inside corners at #23,24,25, it's going to be hard . On the sliding surfaces, the Formica idea would probably still work or maybe some other type of modern material as mentioned by ErichKeane ,( I researched that you can buy strips of 1/8" thick Formica or use 1/16" thick).  It appears that a member i.e. #37 is the carrier for the Formica strips on the upper contact surfaces and the lower is fitted to the base of the machine. One thing that isn't shown or mentioned in the description is a way to adjust the clearance to the ram on the sliding plates. Although maybe the oil nozzles as shown could be the adjustments for clearance?

I have been studying this patent for many years, trying to gain more knowledge on it and thinking about how to build a scale model of it, but also using more modern ideas. It is great that some others might have similar fascination on this metal shaper.


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## frugalguido (May 24, 2020)

To add, it appears that Cincinnati only made a few of these shapers and one was shown at a machinery show, probably to gage interest. I think that by the time it was shown, shapers where already obsolete.


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## frugalguido (Nov 11, 2021)

I am back at it with this Cincinnati idea again, now that I have been studying modern motion control systems. I am going to build a simple model using drawer slides, a brushless motor driving thru a belt to the ram screw, with a magnetic positional encoder on the main ram screw, and a microcontroller. I hope it works, crossing my fingers!


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