# Newbie: Direct into CNC or learn Manual first



## cweber (Jul 29, 2013)

Hi Folks,

I have very limited hands on experience with a lathe and none with a mill. I have used most other machine shop tools and equipment and have workshop and woodworking experience. I am advanced in computer and CAD systems, programming and software in general.

I have a bad lower back and poor shoulders from motorcycling. Therefore, I only want to ever work with bench-top  machines.

My interests lie in hobby only, eventually designing and building all kinds of puzzles, chess sets, some arty things, lots of various clocks, and by the time I eventually retire (I'm 47 year old so have a while to go) - a miniature V8 motor because its always been. Dream of mine 

I want to start learning machining now that I no longer have access to anything at work (having changed jobs) and spend all day in an office. 

Q1. Which is best to start with; a Lathe or Mill?
Q2. Should I start with a manual machine and once gained some experience then upgrade it to CNC?
Q3. I am trying to determine whether to purchase a Taig CNC system or for a little bit more, buy a Wabeco manual Mill or lathe (I cannot afford both at the moment)?

Thanks in advance for any advice 

Cheers, Colin


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## Rbeckett (Jul 29, 2013)

Colin,
I personally would try to learn as much manual as I can first.  The reason I suggest this is because you will develop a "feel" for the machine and will feel the machine laboring or cutting smoothly long before the results show up as a poor finish on a part you are making.  Once you become familiar with how the machine feels, the you will be able to adjust the depth of cut or feed speeds to accommodate the different conditions of the material and the type of work you are trying to do.  CNC is great if you are positive of the machines capabilities, but if you are new to a particular machine it would be very beneficial in my opinion to get a good feel for when it is going good and when it is not.  Hopefully this will help prevent a crash between tool and machine and also help you guage when a bit is getting dull or needs touching up.  I also tend to recommend that as a beginner that you learn to grind your bits and tools out of HSS blanks first before graduating to much more expensive and extremely fragile carbide inserts.  A good hand ground HSS bit is as good or better than a carbide insert as far as finish goes and much cheaper too.  Additionally you will be able to see the relationship between the angles you grind your bits to and the effect it has on the cutting speed and surface finish.  Once you have a little time on the machine then you can CNC it and begin producing parts.  I really feel that CNC lends itself to multiple unit production runs much better than making one off parts.  But that is just my opinion.  You may find that your results or opinion differs.  Please do not hesitate to ask questions whenever you need help, that is what we are here for and it will make your learning curve much less steep and much more enjoyable too.

Bob


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## cweber (Jul 29, 2013)

Rbeckett said:


> I personally would try to learn as much manual as I can first.
> Bob



Which machine would you suggest to begin with; lathe or mill? 

I am likely to have a good couple of years before purchasing the second machine.



> Hopefully this will help prevent a crash between tool and machine and also help you guage when a bit is getting dull or needs touching up.
> Bob



My Dad mentioned this! My father was a fitter and turner by trade and has a life time of experience. Unfortunately, he tries discouraging me with anecdotes on how hard life was and all the learning plus experience required, etc, telling me its not worthwhile and to forget the whole idea. I think he is bitter about some of his career before retirement, not comprehending why I'd want to do this as a hobby. I cannot get anything more from him so went to google, hence this forum. 



> I also tend to recommend that as a beginner that you learn to grind your bits and tools out of HSS blanks first before graduating to much more expensive and extremely fragile carbide inserts.  A good hand ground HSS bit is as good or better than a carbide insert as far as finish goes and much cheaper too.  Additionally you will be able to see the relationship between the angles you grind your bits to and the effect it has on the cutting speed and surface finish.
> Bob



That sounds a great idea. Where do I find information on where to start with this?



> Once you have a little time on the machine then you can CNC it and begin producing parts.  I really feel that CNC lends itself to multiple unit production runs much better than making one off parts.  But that is just my opinion.  You may find that your results or opinion differs.
> Bob



Production isn't an interest to me even if that is a major benefit. I just love the concept of programming a part for CNC. It must be my lifetime of CAD work, that this seems a natural process to pursue. I will 3D model anything in CAD regardless because that's faster than pencil and paper for me. CAM is a logical next step followed by CNC in my mind. However, I see your point, that maybe only the more complex parts are worth CNC'ing; hence manual skills will always be required...

Cheers, Colin


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## Codered741 (Jul 29, 2013)

Welcome to the addiction!

Question #1
     "_Which is the best to start with; Lathe or Mill"
_Personally, I feel that the lathe is the best machine tool to start with.  You can do anything on a lathe, even mill!  They also don't require a large investment, with lots of extra tooling to do special things.  Pretty much any lathe out there can turn, face, radius, chamfer, thread, taper, even broach, with nothing more than a 2$ chunk of HSS.   Mills in themselves are far more versatile, but only with all the fancy extras to make them REALLY useful.  You cannot even cut anything with a mill until you have a endmill, and that requires a collet or end mill holder.  In the end, to build anything very elaborate, you will need both.  

Question #2
_      "Should I start with a manual machine and once gained some experience then upgrade it to CNC?_"
I think that no machinist should be allowed to touch a CNC machine until they can do the same job with a manual machine.  Besides, once you get a feel for the machine, you get a cool project to build the CNC system for it!   Learning on a manual machine, you pick up things by feel, almost sub-consciously, until one day it just clicks.  All the problems that you have had with surface finish, accuracy, etc. just end, and you instinctively make corrections.  I think that every machinist will tell you that they have had a "Light Bulb" moment.  I know I have had a few.  

Question #3
_"I am trying to determine whether to purchase a Taig CNC system or  for a little bit more, buy a Wabeco manual Mill or lathe (I cannot  afford both at the moment)?_"
This is really question #1 again.  So, personally I would go for the Waebco Lathe.  Though, for my first machine, I would buy used.  Get a machine that is in decent shape, a little rough, well "loved", something that you won't cry over when you scratch the paint!  Myself, I found a used HF mini-lathe on CL for about $250, still use it today, but i made my fair share of mistakes on it before buying my Heavy 10.  I highly recommend this route for beginners.  Used machines lose little value, unless they are really damaged, and are a better buy.  

Good luck, and have fun!

-Cody


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## GK1918 (Jul 29, 2013)

Welcome Colin, to the wonderful world of splinters and back acke's.  In general I think most people have started on a lathe.  Lathe / mill / and everthing else, is, in my mind a axe >hand saw>skill saw.  First get the trumpet to make a noise, then develop it.  Its like this, I started around 1952 with forced piano lessons by my parants among talents I inherited. My grandfather played with Paul Whiteman orch. my mother an artist and my father played with grease and gears to pay for all of that. Made short, for 30yrs I graduated behind the unmistakable sound of a Hammond B3 and nobody earned $90 a night when the normal pay was $68 or so a week.  And then comming into the 1980's (you all know who, across the pond) put a end to that. One person with a microphone and a keyboard,push some buttons and get a fifteen piece band, thus pushing talent into the attic.  Remember, the first to go was the drummer. Replaced by the programable drum box. My hayday was a job anywhere, any night club with most a 5 piece bands. Now I know of none in the area. Same thing with this business. I do see a lot of vids on Utube of this new world, and my focus just stops in about 20 seconds.  We wouldnt be here today if it wasnt for the old timers who built this world with brains and hands.  Thousand Model T's a day is impressive no cncs or robots there, and back then these people were happy with 5 bucks a week.  These are my feelings, even a gap between my two boys- my work is against the rules my kids learned.  back to the post, then a natural graduation to a milling machine.  Now with an understanding of lathe work, the mill is an extension, another step. The kids today are taught like putting bread in a toaster, push, watch and the toast is done. My 1933 toastmaster works fine, I have to do it.


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## cweber (Jul 29, 2013)

GK1918 said:


> Welcome Colin, to the wonderful world of splinters and back acke's.



The back aches worry me with my bad back. The only real concern I've had about getting started.



> One person with a microphone and a keyboard,push some buttons and get a fifteen piece band, thus pushing talent into the attic.



I used to play guitar. It takes discipline and hard work. Today's youth, including my boys, my daughter studies hard, want everything easy.




> back then these people were happy with 5 bucks a week.  These are my feelings, even a gap between my two boys- my work is against the rules my kids learned.



My Dad complained about being underpaid, but in his case Australia wouldn't recognise his Swiss trade papers and he probably got $3 a week  The companies took advantage of Europeans. 

Todays generations are not willing to undertake an apprenticeship because the money's not enough. It was good enough for the several generations before them, including myself! Sigh...

As for rules, we are being covered in Cotten wool and bubble wrap with risk mitigation. I question motives behind the safety regs. My last employer destroyed a great and expensive lathe over a minor infraction that was fixable (safety upgradable), leaving the work to a smaller less capable one. The manager didn't want any of us to buy it from the company in fear of a future come back.




> a natural graduation to a milling machine.  Now with an understanding of lathe work, the mill is an extension, another step. The kids today are taught like putting bread in a toaster, push, watch and the toast is done.



Technology is so wonderful. No need to learn anymore 

- - - Updated - - -



Codered741 said:


> Welcome to the addiction!
> 
> Question #3
> _"I am trying to determine whether to purchase a Taig CNC system or  for a little bit more, buy a Wabeco manual Mill or lathe (I cannot  afford both at the moment)?_"
> ...



Thanks. I'll keep looking around here in Australia and see what's about...


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## stupoty (Jul 29, 2013)

I started with a small manual lathe quite old maybe 40-60's i did a lot of learning on it which is going to be a process with any new hobby. If you can get a good deal on a small manual lathe it will give you something to get the feel on and practice the boring stuff like sharpening cutters getting them set at centre height , feed speeds, mounting irregular shaped work in a four jaw chuck.

Also if you have the space you can get a cnc set up and the old lathe can come in handy for secondary operations  or specific tasks.

happy learning 

Stuart


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## DMS (Jul 29, 2013)

My 2c.

Q1. I would start with a lathe. Back pain is more about posture than the machine itself, so make sure you set things up so that they are comfortable to use.
Q2. Start with manual mill. CNC machines move fast. Easy to brake tools, the machine, or yourself. If you don't know why things are breaking, you will be in for a rough time. Start with manual, and get a feel for it.
Q3. I guess 2 already answered this one...


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## Tony Wells (Jul 29, 2013)

Certainly, CNC has advantages over manual machines. Repeatability, speed, ability to move in more than one axis simultaneously, ability to run basically unattended....to name a few. These are important attributes that can be used to great advantage in some situations. If there are many parts of the same design, then CNC has the ability to run through the same operations in the same order, and an optimized speed and tool path all day and all night, without (usually) making a mistake. That advantage is lost when there is only one part to make, or there is not really a specific set of requirements such as a technical drawing to meet. Like just making something to fit a mating part, without regard to the actual size of a given feature. They're ideally suited to a production environment where identical parts are machined en mass. That is not to say that some of their ability is useless otherwise. With modern programming software, it's not so difficult to create a program to machine features that require 2, 3 or even 4 or more axes moves. Surfacing work, contours that would be virtually impossible with manual machinery are well within the realm of an accomplished programmer/operator and an adequate machine. 

But, in the basic view, they do nothing more than manual machines. They remove metal. In a different way perhaps, but cutting principles are the same. There are no great gains in surface speed or feed just because it is under computer control. Understanding common metal cutting concepts and techniques is a great deal easier if taken on a slower paced, generally single axis manual machine. These basics are the foundation for getting the most out of whatever methods are used. Unless you understand tools and cutting, then getting the real value out of CNC equipment will be nearly impossible. It's my opinion, and that's all it is, that a person is best served learning the basics first, learning to crawl, then walk, then run. 

That is not to say that it is not possible to skip manual machining and learn strictly programming and operating a CNC machine. It can be done. In fact, I'd venture to say that the majority of school programs are probably leaning that way, simply in response to the needs of the industry being primarily persons trained and qualified to operate CNC machinery. But for someone on their own, I believe they would be doing themselves no favor to skip over learning to machine manually first. Those students who graduate from such classes as mentioned definitely would not qualify as manual machinists, and the learning curve to go from running CNC to running manual would be considerably steeper than the opposite. 

I am a manual machinist by profession, but I have learned to run some CNC equipment, and written some programs. So I am not ignorant of the factors involved. In fact, the majority of my career has been spent in shops where CNC dominated, so I am quite familiar with it, how they operate, and the different mindsets of CNC operators and manual machinists and the requirements for both. So, if you are asking my advice or opinion, you should start with manual machines and stay with them until they cannot meet your manufacturing needs, based on several factors. I have pointed out some of the key differences above, and they would be part of the decision making process when considering the need for CNC over manual equipment.

That's my opinion, for all it's worth.


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## cweber (Jul 29, 2013)

Tony Wells said:


> ...So, if you are asking my advice or opinion, you should start with manual machines and stay with them until they cannot meet your manufacturing needs, based on several factors. I have pointed out some of the key differences above, and they would be part of the decision making process when considering the need for CNC over manual equipment.



Thanks Tony. 

Ok the general consensus confirms my expectation that much is to be gained learning manual skills first, so I will follow this advice.

I am in no hurry but still like the idea of using CNC down the track, maybe it will even take me a couple of years.


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## DMS (Jul 30, 2013)

I started with a "cheap" 7x14 minilathe. Wanted to get my feet wet, and see if I really liked machining, or if it was just something that "sounded" fun. Turns out it stuck. I have since parted with my first lathe, and have upgraded to a larger manual lathe, and a knee mill which I have converted to CNC. I think that I would have been lost if I had jumped straight into CNC. Down the road, if you decide you want to move on to CNC, you can either convert your machines, or re-sell them to somebody else in your situation. IIRC, I sold my minilathe for a bit more than I got it for (well, I through in a bit of kit with it), not bad for a tool that I learned on for 3 years, and completed dozens of projects with. Machines (especially smaller, hobbyist machines), tend to have good resale value, especially if you treat them right.


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## Rbeckett (Jul 30, 2013)

CW,
Looks like several of the members all gave you great advice and I agree with them all so I really do not have much to add.  You can take a look at MrPete222 on you tube for his Tubal Cain videos.  He has done a bunch of them and one or two of his better ones are all about sharpening the HSS bits for small lathes.  He sells a giant sized wooden copy to help understand all the different angles and where exactly the are on each bit.  Once you get pretty good at hand sharpening you can keep a couple of different grit diamond faced hones handy and touch them up very quickly and get a near perfect surface finish much more quickly.   Ebay has the inexpensive diamond hones that look like jumbo fingernail files with handles in sets and separately.  I would suggest a dedicated grinder for tooling with one wheel reserved for tungstens if you weld and the other side for shaping and sharpening HSS bits.  Keep a good stone truing and dressing tool handy because a clean sharp stone will cut much faster and keep the bits much cooler.  I always hold the bit in my bare hands and if it becomes too hot to hold I drop it in the quench tray to cool off completely before I proceed.  You should practice the grind, dip, grind dip method to help keep the heat down too.  Good luck and don't hesitate to ask questions if you have any.  Look into Arc Euro trading I think they sell a lot of machines in Australia and on the continent.

Bob


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## Mid Day Machining (Jul 30, 2013)

Don't even mess with the tiny light weight desk yop machines. Spend a little more money and buy yourself a Tormach PCNC770.

You're probably gonna spend about $14,000.00 on a machine, but if you muy one of thode light weight machines for $4,000.00, then you buy the Tormach, then you'll have $18,000.00 in your benchtop mill and you'll probably never use the light weight machine again.

I had 2 Dyna-Mite 2400 mills and I bought a Tormach PCNC 1100 Series II a little over 2 years ago. I didn't run the Dyna-Mites once after I bought my Tormach, and I sold them about 3 or 4 months ago and I wasn't a bit sorry to see them go. I gained a lot of bench space so now I can work on my remote control hobbies


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## cweber (Jul 30, 2013)

Steve Seebold said:


> Don't even mess with the tiny light weight desk yop machines. Spend a little more money and buy yourself a Tormach PCNC770.
> 
> You're probably gonna spend about $14,000.00 on a machine, but if you muy one of thode light weight machines for $4,000.00, then you buy the Tormach, then you'll have $18,000.00 in your benchtop mill and you'll probably never use the light weight machine again.



Hi Steve, 

I did look at that option but it means that I can only get one machine. I wanted to learn the lathe also, and as I have some beginner experience figure that I could come up to speed quicker on a lathe first; that plus the other confirmations from his forum confirmed this for me.

i guess this is why the suggestion to get second hand first...


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## Bill Gruby (Jul 30, 2013)

I've watched this thread for a bit now so here is my nickels worth. If you wish to do nothing but production by all means CNC is the way to go. If you wish to learn machining fundamentals then there is only one way to go -- Manual Machines. I prefer the Manual approach.

 Start with a good lathe, then move to a mill.

 "Billy G"


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## jumps4 (Aug 5, 2013)

hi
I have a bad back and can't stand for long periods of time so I use cnc for most everything. I have a different opinion about cnc being only for production I use it for most everything. once you "learn" cnc you can draw a part and produce it faster than changing jigs and fixtures and working a rotary table. there is far less tooling to purchase in the long run with cnc. I don't actually draw the entire part, I draw the surfaces I want machined and their locations most of the time, set to cut inside or outside, set the depth of cut and hit go.
 but that said the best way to start in my opinion is manual. learn the machine, the feeds and speeds and the feel for working with different materials.
Then if you don't like to stand and turn cranks for long periods of time consider cnc to help your back. As far as a cnc lathe I have one but most of the time I make the parts manual unless there is complex curves and threads then I use my cnc lathe. It is faster than radius tools and changing gears on my lathe. 
 I started with sherlines and my advice would to start with the largest machines that will fit your needs and budget.
steve


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## astjp2 (Aug 25, 2013)

One thing about CNC, if you are the operator, you are just installing the material and pushing the button.  This is an industrial setting.  If you are talking about learning from scratch, then you need to know programming for each type of material because feed rates change based on what you machine.  Being a good programmer is an art in itself.  If you just want to cut metal, learning on a manual, you can see what your feed rate does for finish and quality.  Tooling also changes how you program, two, three and four flute bits change with material and feed rates.  So consider what you want to do and what makes the most sense for your situation.  Tim


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## dogbed (Aug 26, 2013)

1 Vote for manual first. Then you can do a CNC conversion as a project.


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