# My welding skills are inferior



## Norppu (Sep 25, 2022)

I am not a welder.


Against all odds I try to get a nice bead on thin material with an old stick welding machine.
Will I fail ?


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## markba633csi (Sep 25, 2022)

Looks like the same type of stick welding mistakes I made at first:
1) moving too fast
2) being too far away
Practice, practice, practice
-Mark
ps also I have found pre-heating the parts makes striking the arc a bit easier


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## benmychree (Sep 25, 2022)

Get a wire welder with shield gas!


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## benmychree (Sep 25, 2022)

Using a milling machine table for a welding table? ------ REALLY????


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## SLK001 (Sep 25, 2022)

Welding thin material with a stick is difficult, to say the least.  Burn thru is very easy to do.  A 1/16" rod and the right current will give you good results.  For thin material, using a MIG, or TIG welder is by far the superior choice.


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## great white (Sep 25, 2022)

Ugh, Stick welding. Never got the hang of it other than making bubblegum welds. I also despise chipping slag.

I went straight to MIG after fumbling around for a while and never looked back. Then to TIG.

Stick certainly has it's applications though. Places where MIG or TIG just aren't practicle. Like outside in the wind, underwater, etc.

It's also probably the most affordable welding method to start up with,  pick up and old buzz box and start burning metal.....


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## Norppu (Sep 25, 2022)

benmychree said:


> Using a milling machine table for a welding table? ------ REALLY????


Nope. It is the drill press table. But still this might not be the correct place to weld with a stick. TIG ... maybe.


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## markba633csi (Sep 25, 2022)

You'd be surprised at how nice stick welds can look- but there is a bit of learning curve
-M


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## Nutfarmer (Sep 25, 2022)

First thing to weld with stick is find a good dc machine. Then try 7018 or a 7016 rod and keep a short arc length. Trying to weld with the old buzz box makes it ten times harder. Thin materials are better suited to mig or tig.


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## Jake M (Sep 25, 2022)

Looks like the heat might not be too far off.  There's a couple of small spots in amongst the boogers that kinda came out fine.  That's not saying it's right, just that it's not probably too far off.

Always pull the electrode, never push.  That is, if the electrode is tilted to the right, you start the weld at the left, and travel to the right.

For flat welding (like the disc), the rod would be verticle, then leaned in the direction you intend to travel by about 10 to 15 degrees.

For the inside corners, in the position you show, you would first "split the difference".  So the rod would be pointed into the corner, 45 degrees "up" from horizontal, and 45 degrees "down from vertical.  From that position, you would then lean it ten to 15 degrees in the direction you intend to travel.

It's hard to see through the blown out camera...  You can film through an old welding helmet lens if you have one, so I'm extrapolating this from motions I can see, and the result of the weld.....  So maybe I'm off a bit, but here's some stuff from a self taught "maintenance" welder, who has stuck together some pretty solid stuff.  (And also someone who knows enough to bail and farm out the job when his skills don't meet the design criteria....)

I see an awful lot of motion of the welding rod that looks like flailing back and forth, The tip of the rod shouldn't really (for "normal" welds like the ones you showed)  travel more than the width of the electrode.  There are other methods, even common ones, where you would move it more, but not for this.  Much smaller movements.

Always moving though.  A cursive lower case "e" pattern works well, as do semi-circles, or many other patterns that keep the rod moving.  While that weave has you forward a little, you're heating, and as you back up, you're filling.  When yo try to "drag" the rod, that is, move it only and exactly in the direction of travel, you often get what you've got a bunch of, where the bead preferentially wetted and attached to one side of the joint.

On that note, as you're watching through the helmet, don't watch the rod.  Watch the puddle.  Adjust the rod movement, and to a slight degree (nothing dramatic), the rod angle.  Not the lead angle, but where you split the 90 degree inside corner into two 45's...  You might find it better to bias the rod to point towards a colder side.  If the bottom were 1 inch plate for example, you might raise the rod slightly to bias more heat towards it.  Of if the bottom were thin sheet metal, you might lower the rod slightly, to bias towards the heavier upright piece.

Steady travel speed.  Whatever pattern you settle on to heat and fill, the travel should really amount to about half the rod diameter.  (The nominal diameter, don't include the flux).  That's another one that's not "required", as you can really adjust the heat over quite a wide range to cover the travel speed, but  when you do that, it's not all the same, or linear.  Kind of the "advanced" lesson.  If you set the travel speed as "however fast you go when the advancement of each weave in your pattern is half the rod diameter", then dial the heat in to make that work, things come together a lot more linearly, and the intuition of what to do if.....  tends to be more similar from one rod to the next.  Much easier to get started with, and very good to fall back on even for a professional when other variables get out of hand.

And a good tight arc.  The arc should not be very long at all.  It's not written in stone, but an eighth of an inch is great for an eighth inch rod.  A 1/16 rod really would like a 1/16 arc.  Good luck with doing that freehand....  But by 3/32 it's a lot easier to come at least close to that.

And of course, striking (starting) the arc...  I couldn't tell you how may times I've heard someone say "if you can strike an arc, I can teach you to weld".  Well of course, because striking an arc is hard to describe, hard to teach, it involves hearing, seeing, and feeling all at the same time, and will take as much practice as anything else you'll ever learn about stick welding.  There's a lot of ways to do this, but the "tap and lift" method I see you using has got to be the absolute hardest and most unreliable of them all.  It's (almost) uncontrollable, and relies mostly on luck.  The better methods are where you are moving along as the arc is struck.  My preferred method is to envision an arc of a circle, maybe two feet in diameter.  Start with the rod too high, moving your arm somewhat in a straight line, and somewhat quickly, drag the rod in the direction you will travel, and along the path you intend to weld.  Using that your wrist, lower the rod, following about that arc that you just envisioned until it scratches.  When the arc starts, continue following that arc of the circle until it lifts the rod about an eighth of an inch (or a little more) above the joint, and quickly (not depositing enough material to say so) "push the rod back to where the weld is to start.  Then circle until your puddle forms, and begin your weave, stitch, cursive e, or whatever pattern you are going to follow, welding right all over all of the "ugly" you just made striking the arc. 

Stick welding does indeed have a very very steep initial learning curve, but it's not "that" tall.  If you weld much, it's well worth your time.  Once you get the general idea (and I mean that...  General idea, you need not be "perfect"....), and the learning curve quickly flattens out.  It's the most versatile welding process you're going to find.  Not to say other processes aren't very successful, and probably more than sufficient for most people, but stick just does so much.  Mig, or the gasless flux core welders have a very short initial learning curve, meaning you can (almost) take one out of the box and go to work for small and non-safety related things.  But there is still a long and ongoing learning, especially for heavy materials seems to never end.  It's really easy to get a big beautiful weld that looks wonderful, but hasn't acutally "burned in" to the parent material, and isn't up to the strength that one would expect of it.  Tig is an absolute bear to get started on, it's like stick welding in one hand, but the arc is in the other hand, and your brain has to control both independantly.  But it lends it's self much better to a home shop environment with less spatter on the work, less spatter in the shop (fires.....), less fumes, more easily vented with a fan in the window.   So yeah....  All processes are valid in my mind, there is no "one size fits all", and stick welding has enough versatility and usefulness that it's absolutely worth learning if you weld much at all.  Just maybe not on the mill table....  That was painful.  Although nobody knows better than you what the actual condition of that table is, and perhaps it's not going to bother it in any way.  But still...  Ouch!


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## FOMOGO (Sep 25, 2022)

I enjoy stick welding, but use it mainly on heavy structural  steel, and heavy equipment repair. works a treat for hard surfacing excavator buckets, and the like. Mig is my go to on most things. I think you can probably teach a monkey to mig weld, which may be why I like banana's.  Mike


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## rabler (Sep 25, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> I think you can probably teach a monkey to mig weld, which may be why I like banana's.  Mike


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## wayback machine (Sep 27, 2022)

For thin tubing, I like gas (O-A) welding - This is a little switch box I made for a machine restoration, from 1" square .065 tubing.
OK, OK, the only photo I have is after it was cleaned up a little, and it was all outside corners, but you_ can_ do a decent job this way :



For AC stick welding, where appearance is important, I like 7014 rod - Makes a much nicer looking bead.
BTW - You DO have a good auto darkening hood, right? It helps if you can see what you're doing :~)
Presently, I'm trying to teach myself TIG - Now THAT is an interesting learning curve ......


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## deakin (Sep 27, 2022)

i did a lot of stick welding in my younger days (+ o/a). that's all we had. lots of body shops back then welded body panels with a buzz box.


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## great white (Sep 27, 2022)

wayback machine said:


> For thin tubing, I like gas (O-A) welding - This is a little switch box I made for a machine restoration, from 1" square .065 tubing.
> OK, OK, the only photo I have is after it was cleaned up a little, and it was all outside corners, but you_ can_ do a decent job this way :
> View attachment 421561
> 
> ...


The learning curve for tig is very steep. But once you’ve gotten to even a rudimentary skill level its just amazing what you can do with tig. It’s my “go to” now for pretty much everything except quick set up work. For that, I tack with mig and then (if its an option) move the piece to the table and finish with tig.

Tig has taken my welding to a completely new level. Tig is expensive and needs a lot of practice, but once you’re on speed, you won’t want to weld any other way.

That most modern tig boxes are also stick capable is just icing on the cake. One box can cover almost all your welding needs.

But mig is still King for quick, easy tacks when putting something together or when dealing with less than perfectly clean (ie: rusty, pitted, etc) steel. You can tack with tig, but nowhere as easy as mig.


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## Harry Knutz (Dec 14, 2022)

If using an AC only welder, The best rod is 7014, It will make a beautiful weld and is fairly easy to run. It almost looks like you used a DC machine with 7018. Many moons ago when all I had was a Montgomery Wards Power Crapt AC welder I built many trailers using 7014 rod.


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## CJ5Dave (Dec 14, 2022)

I’m just the opposite. Can weld most stuff with stick. Can’t parch a fender with mig. A lot of the trick is the right size and type of rod. And clean metal. Everybody wants to weld over paint, rust and old welds.
And 7014 rods are great. Even better on DC. Used to call it a drag rod. Just drag it along and it looks good.


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## T Bredehoft (Dec 14, 2022)

I was taught welding, applying stellite to wear surfaces with TIG, never welded before. This was in the early '70s. If I had to weld today it would be with TIG. I've done some automobile welding with wire, it held, but wasn't pretty.


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## Harry Knutz (Dec 14, 2022)

T Bredehoft said:


> I was taught welding, applying stellite to wear surfaces with TIG, never welded before. This was in the early '70s. If I had to weld today it would be with TIG. I've done some automobile welding with wire, it held, but wasn't pretty.


I can weld most processes and Have many machines here in my home shop. I went to school for welding in the early 80's but I didn't know chit until I started working in shop's, That's when the Learning began. Here is a Mig weld on the leg of The Gantry Crane I built. I still use Stick from time to time though. And I Tig weld more than anything else.


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 14, 2022)

Harry Knutz said:


> I can weld most processes and Have many machines here in my home shop. I went to school for welding in the early 80's but I didn't know chit until I started working in shop's, That's when the Learning began. Here is a Mig weld on the leg of The Gantry Crane I built. I still use Stick from time to time though. And I Tig weld more than anything else.


very nice weld


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## wayback machine (Dec 31, 2022)

To my mind, welding is the ultimate blend of art and science - 2 areas where I am sorely lacking ......


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## hovercraft57 (Jan 2, 2023)

Norppu said:


> I am not a welder.
> View attachment 421356
> 
> Against all odds I try to get a nice bead on thin material with an old stick welding machine.
> Will I fail ?


some helpful points ,,, stick welding first set the amperage by running short beads ,,, you want the weld to spread out slightly wider than the bead,,, the idea is to have the weld spread out onto both pieces getting welded together ,,,, so run a bead if not spreading increase amperage by 5 ,,, run a  test bead ,, one think to watch for the test piece will get hotter and give you a false reading ,,, as you experiment so cool the test piece off ,,, once you find the correct amperage which can be plus or minus 10 amps depending on your preference,, usually the hotter the better,,, the picture show your amperage was too low and arc too long ,,,, once the amps id set toughing the rod on the work is very ok and reduces the arc length variable and adds the sensation of touch ,,, you are getting use to feeding in the rod as it melts away ,,, the noises and smells and the helmet on your head ,,, once those things become second nature you will learn fast because all your attention is focused on the welding ,,,, using both hands helps a lot rest an elbow on the table ,,,, sometimes when starting the test piece will be small and move as you touch the rod to start the arc,,, not good because that is the exact moment you need 100 percent contact  ,,, if the work move electrical contact is broken and rod sticks ,,, of the end of the rod gets all the flus broken off and you have exposed core wire put the rod in the scrap vey tough to start the arc when first learning hop it helps ,,,, also if you are using a AC machine 6013 works good but get a name brand from hobart of lincoln because cheap rods are less expensive because the chemical purity of the flux poor and that makes a huge difference ,,,,hope it help


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## Charles scozzari (Jan 2, 2023)

Norppu said:


> I am not a welder.
> View attachment 421356
> 
> Against all odds I try to get a nice bead on thin material with an old stick welding machine.
> Will I fail ?


If I may suggest, I feel that learning to stick weld is essential to any other method as a stepping stone. I don't know what machine you are using but I would suggest you run some 6011 at first. It's a little more forgiving.  6012/13 can be a little challenging to a new welder. The part that to me is very important is to try to understand what you are seeing happen in the puddle as you are welding. When you can, practice on pieces of the same thickness.You'll learn latter how to weld  1/8" to a piece of 1/4". Don't give up, ask WELDERS and don't listen to all you may see/hear on U Tube. Practice  practice  practice. Once you experience and to some point master stick welding  MIG will feel like a gift from above.


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## cwilliamrose (Jan 2, 2023)

When I learned gas welding the first exercise was to create a molten puddle on some steel and then move it in a controlled way to keep the steps between puddles equal, the width consent and to keep the line of puddles straight. Only after getting good results did we then use filler rod to add material each time you moved the puddle. It took a while to graduate to welding two parts together. All our test coupons were 1/16"-1/8" thick. First we did butt welds, then fillet welds on perpendicular plates.


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## Weldingrod1 (Jan 2, 2023)

When I was teaching stick welding, I would listen to the students arc and yell "closer!" From across the room. When I was behind them the also got "slower!"

You have to go slow enough to establish a molten pool.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Dabbler (Jan 3, 2023)

@Harry Knutz Very nice welds.  I built a gantry crane also.  -- Can I see a picture of yours?

Mine is here (end of post #1)
​


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## Harry Knutz (Jan 3, 2023)

Dabbler said:


> @Harry Knutz Very nice welds.  I built a gantry crane also.  -- Can I see a picture of yours?
> 
> Mine is here (end of post #1)
> ​


Thank you! Here are some pics of my crane, Your crane looks good, Very heavy duty. I made mine wide enough to get a car hauler inside of it. I also made a tounge that spans the 2 legs with a ball connector so I can move it around my yard.

I am going to make one with a smaller foot print to actually roll things around in my shop. It took me a few years to get my shop where I wanted it to be, My shop was on my property when I bought it, But it was just a shell, I finished it the way I wanted it.


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## Charles scozzari (Jan 3, 2023)

Harry Knutz said:


> Thank you! Here are some pics of my crane, Your crane looks good, Very heavy duty. I made mine wide enough to get a car hauler inside of it. I also made a tounge that spans the 2 legs with a ball connector so I can move it around my yard.
> 
> I am going to make one with a smaller foot print to actually roll things around in my shop. It took me a few years to get my shop where I wanted it to be, My shop was on my property when I bought it, But it was just a shell, I finished it the way I wanted it.


Great job on the welding and work benches.


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## Harry Knutz (Jan 3, 2023)

Charles scozzari said:


> Great job on the welding and work benches.


Thank you Charles!


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## Dabbler (Jan 4, 2023)

@Harry Knutz I have two main beams, a 4" X 4" X .250 tube that is 6 feet wide, and an 11' 4" wide beam made from a 4" X 8" X .188 tube,  The wide one is to move a trailer underneath.  It has a 5 ton capacity.


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## Harry Knutz (Jan 4, 2023)

Dabbler said:


> @Harry Knutz I have two main beams, a 4" X 4" X .250 tube that is 6 feet wide, and an 11' 4" wide beam made from a 4" X 8" X .188 tube,  The wide one is to move a trailer underneath.  It has a 5 ton capacity.


That is very good. That was the main reason I didn't buy the Harbor Freight Gantry Crane, Is that it was barely wide enough to pull a pickup truck through.


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## CJ5Dave (Jan 6, 2023)

When welding goes terribly wrong.


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## Harry Knutz (Jan 6, 2023)

CJ5Dave said:


> When welding goes terribly wrong.


That's why my nickname is "Sparky" I have had the name for 35 years, I used to regularly catch on fire while I was welding. I still have the scars all over my forearms from my early days of welding in shops that didn't have a lot of safety equipt.


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## Charles scozzari (Jan 6, 2023)

Harry Knutz said:


> That's why my nickname is "Sparky" I have had the name for 35 years, I used to regularly catch on fire while I was welding. I still have the scars all over my forearms from my early days of welding in shops that didn't have a lot of safety equipt.


I had the same thing happen to me many times. It aways would happen was when I was at a place when I wanted the weld to look good I'd get that warm feeling on my leg and know I was on fire. So now the decision is do I keep welding or put out my smoldering pants. Not wanting my weld look bad by stopping mid way and restarting I usually opted to keep welding. Right, what's more important?


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## aliva (Jan 6, 2023)

That's why everyone where I used to work wore company supplied Nomex clothing


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## SLK001 (Jan 6, 2023)

Charles scozzari said:


> ...I usually opted to keep welding.



Really?  To me, there ain't very many welds that are more important than my well being.  I never considered myself to be a disposable item.


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## Jake M (Jan 6, 2023)

CJ5Dave said:


> When welding goes terribly wrong.



Lay the rod back and tighten your arc a little, you can close that back up.


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## CJ5Dave (Jan 6, 2023)

Camo hunting coveralls are quite flammable. Don’t ask how I know.


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