# Face Mill Safety and Use: Help Request



## Uglydog (Jul 15, 2017)

The question: how do I safely and effectively choose and use a face mill? 
This includes diameter for general purpose work on steel and aluminum, as well as speed and feed selection.
I've been looking for a primer. Haven't found one yet...
Does anyone have suggestions, directions or formulas?
Do I just use the end mill speed and feed formulas?

Background Information: I've been using a HSS fly cutter with a collet system and a 1hp motor on a Cincy 1B.
She's replaced by a Cincy 1D with a 2hp with a Xaxis powerfeed and a 40NMTB arbor.
I believe I can now safely and effectively move to a face mill. 
I've had some 4inch carbide insert face mill on the shelf for a few years but would need to add a 40NMTB arbor (anybody got an extra?).

I've read in some other threads that 3inch face mill is a general purpose max for a 2hp. Minimum spindle speed is 170rpm on my 1D.

Does anyone have suggestions, directions or formulas?

Thank you,
Daryl
MN


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## Bob Korves (Jul 15, 2017)

How many inserts does your 4" cutter have, Daryl?  More inserts equals more power required.  If the insert count is even, you can remove half of the inserts and get more depth of cut (or more speed) if necessary.  A formula is not really necessary.  Start with a shallow cut and work up to what it can do.  It will let you know when it is getting unhappy.  Use enough rpm to get color to the chips if cutting steel.  Start slow and light and work up to what works best for you.


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## Uglydog (Jul 16, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> ...A formula is not really necessary. ...  It will let you know when it is getting unhappy.  ...Start slow and light and work up to what works best for you.


That all makes sense. Similar to how I've been using other cutters on the lathe, mill, shaper.  Listening to the machine tool is really the same as listening to a truck with manual transmission. 

Thanks.
Daryl
MN


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 16, 2017)

If you going to buy a face mill, I'd stay away from those that use the TPG/TPU series of inserts, they are meant to be lathe inserts, lot of chatter, rough cuts and are rough on the spindle bearings, lots of head vibrations. I got smoother operation and better cuts wiin a fly cutter.

I have a Grizzly, that uses the TPG/TPU inserts, bought without any research, now I use a Walter F4041 cutter, the difference is night and day.


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## 4GSR (Jul 16, 2017)

True that TPG inserts were made for the lathe.  The evolution of the face mill in midstream, the TP_ style inserts started showing up in face mills.  Not as popular today but still out there and preferred by many.   Have  two that I use from time to time.  Yeah, they are a little rough on a Bridgeport style mill head, but what face mill is not.  Wait until you try a APKT style insert face mill!  It even worse!  If you have a good heavy mill, no problem.  
Look for a high shear insert face mill that takes an insert like a SEKN or SEEN or SENN style.  I have one for my mill and I'll usually use it before I will the face mill with the TPG inserts.  
People also have to think about insert geometry that is used on a mill.  You generally try to use a insert that is "flatten" on bottom that acts as an 'wiper' insert.  Like on a TPG insert a 321 is going to leave a rough finish and the edge will burn up quicker, where if you use a 323 or 324 insert, you will get a nicer finish and longer insert life.  The number 3 or 4 tip radius will improve finish and act like a wiper.  Still hard on your mill when taking deep cuts.  You also need to run your face mill in the 600-900 SFM speed range. And feed the face mill as hard as you can.  Slow feed is going to burn up your inserts in a heart beat! On my mill 'wide open" on the spindle motor, which is about 1100-1200 RPM on a 2-1/2" facemill.  Cut dry and place face shields around the part to contain most of the shavings coming off!  They pile up quick, too!
If you are wanting to put a 4" or bigger face mill on a big mill like a No. 2 or 3 or bigger K & T or Cincinnati mill, and have the money to spend, look into the Ingersoll or Iscar face mill they have to offer.  We had a 4" face mill back home that used a high shear square style insert the we got great results with.  But we had a big heavy mill and HP that would take it and keep on ticking!  Ken


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## 4GSR (Jul 16, 2017)

Buffalo20 said:


> ......................
> ...................................., now I use a Walter F4041 cutter, the difference is night and day.


Jack,

Can you provide us with a reference to the Walter face mill you use?


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 16, 2017)

I use a 2" (a nice size for small mills) Walter F4041UB051Z04 13, that uses 4, of the substantial LNGX 13070R-L55 insert (with 4 separate cutting edges, per insert). 

I miss f I had a larger mill, at this time, I'm limited to 1-1/2 hp,on a couple of smaller mills, If Imhad a larger mill, I'd probably go with a 3" or 3-1/2" cutter. The inserts cut very well and there seems to be almost no "hammering" in the head during operation, a lot easier on the spindle bearings.


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## RandyWilson (Jul 16, 2017)

So what I"m hearing here is the new Ingersoll 5" I *just* bought is going to make a dandy paper weight.


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## Uglydog (Jul 16, 2017)

At the risk of marketing competition for these heads....
Can anyone identify the inserts on these Facemills? Are these inserts styles to stay away from?

http://www.hoffonlineauctions.net/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?hoff7/128/showall

I can run down there next week.
Some appear to be new others, perhaps scrap on account of the trauma to the support surface behind the inserts.
These auctions often run up $$ in the last few moments of the online process.
I'd still need a 40NMTB arbor....

Daryl
MN


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 16, 2017)

Its hard to tell from the pictures, but they look like either a APMT or APKT, by shape, but can't tell the size


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## Uglydog (Jul 16, 2017)

Buffalo20 said:


> ...they look like either a APMT or APKT, by shape....



Then based on this thread I should stay clear!!

Thank you!!
Daryl
MN


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 4GSR (Jul 16, 2017)

Daryl,

I see one very obsolete, maybe one that is salvageable, and two that are junk.  Not totally junk, you could rebuild them with a good hand at TIG welding with some high yield rod.  Then set up on compound tilt rotary table and recut the pocket.  Looks like a stripped out screw hole in one, easy fix with a Helicoil insert.  The one with all of the chipped inserts, may have stuck screws that the socket has been stripped out.  May take a carbide drill or endmill to drill out and clean the threads out.  Probably another Helicoil insert.  Who knows.  This is the kind of things you may run into buying used face mills at auction including evilbay.  My brother and I used to do repairs on large 8"-10" facemills for the company he worked for back home.  Made good money on them, too, back in the days.


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## kd4gij (Jul 16, 2017)

I have a 2" face mill that uses 5 APKT inserts that I use on my G0704.  For AL I take .050 passes and for steel .025. Leaves a nice finish when squaring up stock.


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## Uglydog (Jul 16, 2017)

Thanks 4gsr,
I was concerned about the need for a rebuild.
Likely a project I don't need to start.

Daryl
MN


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## Uglydog (Jul 16, 2017)

kd4gij,
What is a G0704? 

Thanks
Daryl
MN


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## kd4gij (Jul 16, 2017)

A want a be mill


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## Uglydog (Jul 17, 2017)

Thank you for the perspective!!
She is a square column! Cool.

I'll keep watching for what turns up.
Meanwhile I've go a horzontal and a shaper. Old school...

Daryl
MN


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