# How important is levelness of the table for lathes?



## Pcmaker (Oct 28, 2018)

I'm building a table for my 11x27 lathe that I ordered a week ago. How important is the level of the table top? The wood bench I made isn't too level.

Also, do you think this will hold 1200 pounds? Made out of 4x4s and some 2x4s.

I'll be setting my lathe, my mill, along with other tooling on top of it. I'll be using 2 pieces of 3/4" plywood glued together as top

I don't have a machinist's level. I just have a regular bubble level from Home Depot


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## Mitch Alsup (Oct 28, 2018)

I would add some diagonals to stiffen up the square/rectangular sections.

As to holding vertical loads--yes it is fine
As to handling horizontal bumps by heavy things--I am not so sure.


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## francist (Oct 28, 2018)

I would not put 1200 pounds on that stand as it is with no leg in the front, especially considering the near-perfect placement of the knot dead centre of the front apron. 

-frank


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## Technical Ted (Oct 28, 2018)

If I was making one for myself, I would want full support under each of the four corners of a mill and under both sides of each base section of a bench lathe. So that would be a minimum of 8 legs directly under the critical areas (4 mill, 4 lathe). I wouldn't be very comfortable with an open front design like your picture. I'd put some supports going all the way to the floor as I stated. Besides just being level, you want things to be stable. A non-stable base would lend itself to chatter and other issues down the road. I rather over build than under build something of this importance.

Also, it's not so important that the bench be level... it's the machinery that needs to be level. The lathe should not be twisted, which is different than being level. There are a lot of previous posts on leveling a lathe. You can always adjust, shim or whatever to level your machines after you install them on the bench.

Of course all this depends on the size of your machinery, which I have no idea what you have... so if they are very small, you may be able to get by with less. It would depend on how much they weigh, among other things. 

Just my two cents,
Ted


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## benmychree (Oct 28, 2018)

A bench made of wood will not be stable with changes in humidity, having said that, indeed, it does need more legs and suitable bracing, such as plywood back and end panels; I agree with the other posters.


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## WCraig (Oct 28, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> I'm building a table for my 11x27 lathe that I ordered a week ago. How important is the level of the table top? The wood bench I made isn't too level.
> 
> Also, do you think this will hold 1200 pounds? Made out of 4x4s and some 2x4s.
> 
> ...


I believe you said, in another thread, that you're using pallet wood?  How dry is it?  Pallets are often made of the cheapest, sopping wet wood that they can get away with.  If your wood continues to dry out over a year or two, it may decide to warp, twist and otherwise ruin the flat, straight support you want for your tools.  That would be "A bad thing"!

Also, you may want to put levellers under the legs.  If the floor isn't perfectly flat and level, the bench top won't be for long. 

I'm not sure if it is designed for this, but you might want to see what the Sagulator says:

https://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/

Effectively, your top is a shelf supported on the two ends.  Alternatively, I know there are calculators out there for joist deflection.  Maybe one of them would help.

Craig


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## ttabbal (Oct 28, 2018)

What they are talking about is the reason my bench has 8 legs. 4 for the corners, 4 directly under the machine feet. I also made sure to build it in such a way that fasteners and glue aren't used to hold the weight. 

As for level, it's nice to keep things from rolling off the bench. The lathe doesn't care so long as it is not twisted. We talk about level as it's a common reference we're familiar with. I leveled mine with a carpenters level and it's fine. Then I leveled the lathe with a machine level and used the 2 collar test to align it the rest of the way. Reminds me, I need to do it again.


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## Pcmaker (Oct 28, 2018)

WCraig said:


> I believe you said, in another thread, that you're using pallet wood?  How dry is it?  Pallets are often made of the cheapest, sopping wet wood that they can get away with.  If your wood continues to dry out over a year or two, it may decide to warp, twist and otherwise ruin the flat, straight support you want for your tools.  That would be "A bad thing"!
> 
> Also, you may want to put levellers under the legs.  If the floor isn't perfectly flat and level, the bench top won't be for long.
> 
> ...



It's 4x4 Fir from Home Depot, not pallet wood. I don't know where you got that from


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## Superburban (Oct 28, 2018)

ttabbal said:


> As for level, it's nice to keep things from rolling off the bench. The lathe doesn't care so long as it is not twisted. We talk about level as it's a common reference we're familiar with. I leveled mine with a carpenters level and it's fine. Then I leveled the lathe with a machine level and used the 2 collar test to align it the rest of the way. Reminds me, I need to do it again.



Agreed, we use "Level", because the lathe was basically designed to run level, and level is easy to aim for. The real goal, is no twist. It could be 10 degrees forward, as long as the whole thing is 10 degrees forward. Exaggeration, I do not think the tail stock would hold center well, at 10 degs, even though there are slant bed lathes. I would bet there is more to them, then just turning the lathe forward.


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## dtsh (Oct 28, 2018)

A wooden bench is perfectly acceptable; however, as others have stated you need to add more support.
A triangle is one of the strongest shapes, add diagonals inside the vertical squares and another leg in the front, at minimum. If you load it up with that design and the front support gives, it will toss the lathe right in your lap and that's not going to end well.

You want all of the horizontal members to rest directly on top of a vertical member, like you would a jack stud in framing, so that none of the load is supported by fasteners. You will likely need to double up a few more vertical members, such as inside the corners to support the cross members because it looks like they are effectively unsupported by anything but fasteners and that's where a significant portion of your load will be. Imagine removing all the fasteners, any piece that holds load but wouldn't stay up without fasteners needs to have a support member directly beneath it supporting it in place. With the short cross members at the benchtop, should a fastener or two fail, what keeps the lathe from falling and injuring you?


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## Tozguy (Oct 29, 2018)

Agreed on most of the comments above. A carpenters level, used carefully, should be fine to get the table top level enough. 

It is going to be tricky to get five or more legs to bear evenly on the floor without adjusters.
What about adding a third sheet of 3/4 plywood under the top to sandwich the cross studs? With everything glued together it should be a very stable top. If you plan the layout of the machines beforehand access holes can be cut in this 'under panel' as required. 

Ideally, with a rigid top built like a sandwich, four beefy legs located in from the corners (to balance out the span between and beyond the legs) would be enough.


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## bill70j (Oct 29, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> I'll be using 2 pieces of 3/4" plywood glued together as top



Pcmaker:

A couple of things you may want to consider for your top.

1)  If you're going to use plywood, you could be susceptible to twist, so reinforcing the top frame with additional blocking will help minimize that possibility.  Sort of like designing a torsion box.  That would stay flat.

2)  As an alternative to plywood, an equally cost effective design for the top would be laminated 2X4's on edge.  They would stay flat with the frame as-is.

3) In any case, if you're using a soft wood for the top, you may want to add steel plates under the mounting feet of the lathe.  Without a hard surface, the feet will dig into the wood upon tightening, which makes precise leveling very difficult.

HTH,  Bill


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## RJSakowski (Oct 29, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> I'm building a table for my 11x27 lathe that I ordered a week ago. How important is the level of the table top? The wood bench I made isn't too level.
> 
> Also, do you think this will hold 1200 pounds? Made out of 4x4s and some 2x4s.
> 
> ...



My personal preference is metal for machine stands.  As others have stated, wood is not stable with respect to changes in temperature and humidity.

That said, there are probably more bench lathes mounted on wood than steel.  Since you already have the stand built, the design focus would be on improving what you have.  I would put vertical supports as close to the machines' bases as possible.  I would also use through bolts and nuts rather than construction screws.  I would also use glue as well as fasteners on all joints.  In assembling the top, I would glue the two sheets of plywood together.

Using a wood bench, you may want to consider leaving you machine mounting hardware fairly loose.  Tight enough to prevent the machines from moving but not enough to create stress in the castings, causing twisting of the machine base.


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## P. Waller (Oct 29, 2018)

A lathe can never be level enough in the hobby world.
Materials such as wood and steel are thermally unstable, they will both move with temperature gradients as will the substrate that you mount them  on. Granite is an excellent machine base so start there, granite on a very thick and large concrete slab would be an excellent choice. There is no excuse for not excavating your home in an effort to achieve machine accuracy

Then buy a level, this is an excellent beginners choice https://www.higherprecision.com/pro...er-magnetic-precision-spirit-level-53-422-048
Place the granite base on the foundation then place the lathe on the granite and secure as needed, level the machine when the room achieves the required air temperature and density, NOW level it to the desired accuracy but make sure that the coolant pan is tilted toward the drain at all times otherwise coolant will find its way to the floor. You are now good to go, good luck.

You do realize that this is sarcasm I hope.


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## mikey (Oct 30, 2018)

Actually, the word facetious came to mind.


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## Downunder Bob (Oct 30, 2018)

having the bench top level is not really that important, it is, however very important that it is very stable. when the lathe is attached to the bench it can be levelled by use of shims and jacking screws. It is most important that there is no twist in the lathe or other forces causing it to hog or sag. Unfortunately making your bench out of wood uis I think asking for trouble, as the temperature and moisture content of the wood varies throughout the year it will apply various twisting, hogging, sagging forces to the bed of your lathe.


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## Sackett (Oct 31, 2018)

You mean useing my lathe tossed on the tailgate of the pickup aint cool???


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## Pcmaker (Oct 31, 2018)

This is the bench I just made, I hope it'll hold my 600 pound lathe and my 300 pound mill, as well as all the other tools


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## francist (Oct 31, 2018)

That looks much more promising!

-frank


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## tjb (Oct 31, 2018)

That's much better, but I still think you need to run some diagonals - at least on the two long sections in the back.  One of the strongest building joints you can make is a triangle.  It's very difficult to cause a triangle to lose its rigidity.  You can't change the degrees on any of the three angles without changing the length of at least one side.  (That's one of the reasons roofs are gabled instead of flat.  It's also one of the reasons framers often run a temporary diagonal 2x4 across studded walls until the roof ties the building together.)

Not so with a rectangle.  A perfectly laid out rectangle with four 90 degree sides can easily distort into a non-square parallelogram without any change in the length of the sides.  With 1,200 lbs. of machinery on top of it, that's a formula for a disaster.

Regards,
Terry


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## tjb (Oct 31, 2018)

P.S.:  Another solution - perhaps easier - would be to make the back more rigid by facing it with a solid piece of plywood (half-inch or three quarter).  That would accomplish the same objective of not allowing distortion.  Might have some aesthetic appeal as well.

Regards,
Terry


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## Downunder Bob (Oct 31, 2018)

Looks much better, that extra leg in the front center makes  a world of difference, but I have to agree with Terry above it definitely need some diagonals across the back and on the ends.

I would also put steel plates under the feet of the machines so that the jacking bolts have a solid surface to press on. I would also screw the plate to the top ply and put a hold down bolt through each plate, when you adjust the machines you can have them bolted down as well as the jacking bolts to make it all very rigid.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 2, 2018)

I have a pm25mv milland pm1127 lathe. Should I bolt them both to the table? The table isn't perfectly flat or even.


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## tjb (Nov 2, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> I have a pm25mv milland pm1127 lathe. Should I bolt them both to the table? The table isn't perfectly flat or even.


Yes.  If the table's not flat or even, you'll almost certainly need to shim the machines to achieve stability.  If the machines are shimmed, the best way to keep the machines stationary is by though-bolts.  I suggest re-reading RJSakowski's post above.  He's offered great suggestions on the optimal method for mounting machines to wood benches.

Regards,
Terry


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## WarrenP (Nov 2, 2018)

Also would depend on if you think you have enough room to work on your projects without either the lathe or mill getting in the way.. especially if you have a longer piece coming off the mill the lathe might be in the way.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 2, 2018)

The wood I used to make this workbench is so twisted, I can't get it level. I'll have to level the lathe itself, shim it somehow and bolt it to the table. Should I put adjustable leveling feet on the lathe itself?


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## ttabbal (Nov 2, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> The wood I used to make this workbench is so twisted, I can't get it level. I'll have to level the lathe itself, shim it somehow and bolt it to the table. Should I put adjustable leveling feet on the lathe itself?



That's what I did, adjustable levelers at the corners. The thread I posted earlier has some pics of them, pretty basic setup.


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## Downunder Bob (Nov 4, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> The wood I used to make this workbench is so twisted, I can't get it level. I'll have to level the lathe itself, shim it somehow and bolt it to the table. Should I put adjustable leveling feet on the lathe itself?



From what you have said about this table, I really think you need to take the table itself out of the equation. Sure you can still use the table, but you need to make  a sub frame to secure the lathe too, and then the sub frame can be secured to the table.

I would make the subframe out of not less than 50 mm 2" square heavy wall tubing, not less than 3mm 1/8" wall thickness, weld the subframe up to fit the lathe mounting points make it a square and rigid as you can. bolt the subframe to the table top shimming where necessary don't force the frame to conform to the table, but rather force the table to conform to the frame. I would probably only bolt the subframe to the table at 3 points, 2 of them under the headstock , and the other one under the tailstock area, this will allow the table to move quite a bit with the weather with out unduly influencing the frame and lathe. The lathe can then be securely fitted to the frame with a combination of hold down bolts and jacking screws, making it as near to perfectly square as you can.


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## Tozguy (Nov 4, 2018)

Pcmaker, just wondering how much swing in temperature and humidity you are expecting throughout the year. Do you have climate control in the shop?


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## Tozguy (Nov 4, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> Using a wood bench, you may want to consider leaving you machine mounting hardware fairly loose.  Tight enough to prevent the machines from moving but not enough to create stress in the castings, causing twisting of the machine base.



An uneven table top is no more of a problem than a common uneven floor. I would bolt the headstock down solid but leave the tailstock end free enough to slip under stress. The lathe itself is built solid so the tail end is better to slip if the table shifts than to have any table warp transferred to the lathe. There have been many a three point lathe stand just sitting on the floor with only one foot at the tail end.

I would bolt the mill down solid to the table with shims to level it.



Pcmaker said:


> The wood I used to make this workbench is so twisted, I can't get it level. I'll have to level the lathe itself, shim it somehow and bolt it to the table. Should I put adjustable leveling feet on the lathe itself?



Unless there are wide swings in temp and humidity, the wood bench should stabilize over a year or two. After all there is some pretty fancy wood furniture that stabilizes well (think pianos) if conditions permit.

I would wait and see how your table actually works before fixing it. Also, you might eventually find other reasons to modify or improve your set up later on.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 4, 2018)

I live in Las Vegas, so I'm not so worried about humidity


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## Pcmaker (Nov 5, 2018)

Thinking of scrapping everything and just rebuild from the ground up and use 2" square tubing


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## tjb (Nov 6, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> Thinking of scrapping everything and just rebuild from the ground up and use 2" square tubing


In my opinion, that's a good idea.  In my shop, I've made all the tables, workbenches, shelves and rolling stands out of square tubing with tops ranging from 1/8" to 1" thick.  No doubt, it's more expensive, but I NEVER worry about sturdiness for anything in the shop.  And, it's good practice for project design and welding.

Regards,
Terry


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## bill70j (Nov 6, 2018)

Pcmaker said:


> Thinking of scrapping everything and just rebuild from the ground up and use 2" square tubing



Pcmaker:

Agree the ideal is a strong, heavy metal bench.  But it would be a shame to see your quality work go down the drain.  I think you have a stout frame and, being wood, you can easily add more drawers and/or cabinets.

If you choose to stay with your wood frame I see several options to ensure you have a top that is strong, rigid, flat, and stable. 

1)  Build a metal sub-frame for the top as has been suggested
2)  Build a torsion box using 2x4's sandwiched between 2 sheets of plywood
3)  Buy a bunch of 2x4's, joint them, cut them to random lengths, laminate them, then plane the whole thing flat, or have a shop do it for you
4)  Buy a solid core door, typically made from particleboard, or a well engineered hollow core door
5)  Buy a pre-made quality bench top laminated from hardwood

Any of these options will work, but in any case, if you go with a wood top, it should be fitted with 1/4" steel plates for use as mounting plates, and the top should be secured to the frame with mechanical fasteners.

I have a version of #3 for my 10X42 lathe.  I have successfully leveled it with a precision level, and it stays level

HTH,  Bill


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## sru_tx (Nov 6, 2018)

I recently bought a PM1228 and needed to build a stand. The lathe was going to be set up on the second floor of my garage which made the "foundation" somewhat susceptible to shifts over time and temperature. I looked at @davidpbest torsion beam design and based my design on it.  I used two heavy 7"x2" C-channels welded together to form a 7x4 tube. As per david's design, I put an angle on either end of the beam with threaded adjusters on each end of the angles to act as levelers and bolts to lock it in place. I built a simple frame out of 2" square tubing 0.125" wall and  put casters with built-in leveling pads so I can move the machine when/if needed but then lock it in place and level the frame. What I found was that after I leveled the frame on the uneven floor there wasn't much need to level the torsion beam.  While testing a sample piece in the lathe with a DTI and looking at the twist, I found that the beam was so stiff that the twist adjusters had not effect on the beam itself. I did find that by varying the torque on the 4 mounting bolts the lathe frame would twist which meant that the beam wasn't truly flat.  After a bit of shimming and torquing, the machine was solid and no twist and the lathe turned true.

Bottom line is that the torsion beam is so stiff that I doubt the 2" frame is having any effect which means that the shifting of the garage should have no effect either. I'd consider just putting together a metal torsion beam and mount it on your wooden frame.

Pics to follow:


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