# Look what showed up at my shop door yesterday



## olddude (Oct 2, 2017)

My son works at a large plant near here and sometimes they scrap the most unbelievable stuff. Everything from stainless steel hardware, nut's, bolts, screws of every size imaginable. I've seen those 20 and 40 foot long scrap bins half full of this hardware that most was still in unopened boxes. One time I saved 6] 316L 10" I beams and 6] 4x6 1/2" thick side wall 316L stainless box tubes that all were 20' long. 

One time they were moving most all of their machines to another plant and there was several lathes and milling machines that wouldn't fit on the 7 tractor trailers they had out back to haul them away and before he found out about it they had thrown them in the scrap bins out back. I was so sick when I looked over in that scrap bin that day and saw 2 Bridgeport knee mills, A Mazak 28x80, a Bridge port 23x80 and a Leblond 48x 120  lathe all mangled  together. Then in the dumpster next to it were probably 10 or 12 brand new snap on tool boxes that were all about 7' wide and were all loaded with every kind of tooling known to man. Most all this tooling was brand new still in boxes but the plant they were supposed to go to was all tooled up and didn't need it so they put it in the dumpsters. They say it was cheaper to scrap it than it would be to keep it around taking up space.

Any way a couple weeks ago they were talking about throwing out several more machines but some of the higher up guys got the okay and were supposed to take them home. There was 1 Bridgeport milling machine and 2 smaller tool room lathes and a big drill press that was headed for scrap. I wanted one of those lathes bad but my son's boss man took both of them but didn't have room for the big drill press. Another boss was going to get that but found out it was 3 phase and decided not to take it so it finally filtered down to my son and he brought it by yesterday, all 3100 lbs of it. I didn't really have room for it but I moved some stuff around and it's now part of my ever growing family of tools. Now I just got to figure out how to power it.

It's a beautiful working machine that they were using one day and the next day they had to make room for something else. Here's my brand new, well older.....new toy.


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## Firestopper (Oct 2, 2017)

Thats a beauty congratulations!


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## JimDawson (Oct 2, 2017)

WOW ! 

Sounds like a fun place to go dumpster diving.


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## Robert LaLonde (Oct 2, 2017)

Variable Frequency Drive is the easiest, but you might need some help on setup.  Rotary phase converter would of course work, but its less efficient and just provides straight 60hz (or 50 if that's your base frequency) so you can't use it for speed control.  The rotary's advantage is you can plug different machines into it.  If there are no real electronic controls you might be able to use a static phase converter cheaper.  It will run a motor ok.  I have VFDs all over my shop and plan to add a couple more.


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## olddude (Oct 3, 2017)

Bob La Londe said:


> Variable Frequency Drive is the easiest, but you might need some help on setup.  Rotary phase converter would of course work, but its less efficient and just provides straight 60hz (or 50 if that's your base frequency) so you can't use it for speed control.  The rotary's advantage is you can plug different machines into it.  If there are no real electronic controls you might be able to use a static phase converter cheaper.  It will run a motor ok.  I have VFDs all over my shop and plan to add a couple more.



Yeah, that will be the next step and I have been doing a little reading on different ways to power this thing. I was lucky with my Bridgeport mill it's single phase. That does a good job on most stuff I do but larger holes, stuff over 11/4" can be a pain.  This thing will drill pretty much what ever size bit you have and the tables are a lot more adjustable when you want to drill odd sized stuff.  The small table on the Bridgeport doesn't work to well if you have a bunch of holes in a long piece of work there just isn't enough travel, maybe 20" at best without having to set up again and we all know how that works out.

Right now I have to put this on the back burner because money is tight. Once I finally finish my building the way I want I'll look into getting power to this machine. When you say you can't use a rotary phase converter for speed, just what do you mean by that? This machine has a 3 HP 50hz motor on it so what do I need to look for.


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## Chipper5783 (Oct 3, 2017)

"When you say you can't use a rotary phase converter for speed, just what do you mean by that? This machine has a 3 HP 50hz motor on it so what do I need to look for."

Just means you can't use the RPC for speed control.  Of course you get the 9 speeds provided by the speed selections on the machine, and ease of plugging in other 3 phase machines (with the capacity and voltage of the RPC and your supply).

"What do you need?"  What is written on the motor name plate?  That is your starting point.


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## olddude (Oct 3, 2017)

JimDawson said:


> WOW !
> 
> Sounds like a fun place to go dumpster diving.



You got that right, I would give my whole right n........well you know what I mean,  if I could get their scrap contract.  I was thinking it would be worth investing in a couple of those big dumpsters and a truck to haul them on. Then of course you would have to have a warehouse to sort all that good stuff out then scrap the rest. They scrap between 1 and 2 hundred thousand pounds of SS a year and almost that much of other exotic type medals, aluminum, inconel, titanium, copper, toungsten among others. Heck I would be happy with  just the scrap iron they scrap out every year. 

One time I saw them pay a rigging company $80,000 to dismantle and haul away a 50 ton travel crane because it was 5 years old. Then paid them over $100,000 to install another one just like it and that was just the labor. Oh, and the rigging company got the old equipment for hauling it off. The sad part was in the 5 years the old equipment was in service they only used it like about 4 times because they didn't have anyone on staff that was qualified to use it. Every time the did use it they had to hire a crew from some rigging company to come in to make the lift to the tune of about $ 10,000 a pop. I guess when you are making a tone of money you have to find write offs to keep uncle sam at bay. LOL


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## olddude (Oct 3, 2017)

Chipper5783 said:


> "When you say you can't use a rotary phase converter for speed, just what do you mean by that? This machine has a 3 HP 50hz motor on it so what do I need to look for."
> 
> Just means you can't use the RPC for speed control.  Of course you get the 9 speeds provided by the speed selections on the machine, and ease of plugging in other 3 phase machines (with the capacity and voltage of the RPC and your supply).
> 
> "What do you need?"  What is written on the motor name plate?  That is your starting point.



That's what I thought you meant. As noted before it is a 50hz 3 horse power motor that runs on 220/440 v. I think it runs at 1750rpms i'll have to look at the plate again. It's a Westinghouse Life-Line,  type CSP motor if that means anything to you.


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## dlane (Oct 3, 2017)

What ever company that is there, way to wasteful.
They must be making things for the government  wasting our tax dollars .
Unfortunately there are too many gov contract companies like that.
But I'm sure they rite off there wast and don't really pay for it, we do !.


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## Robert LaLonde (Oct 3, 2017)

olddude said:


> Right now I have to put this on the back burner because money is tight. Once I finally finish my building the way I want I'll look into getting power to this machine. When you say you can't use a rotary phase converter for speed, just what do you mean by that? This machine has a 3 HP 50hz motor on it so what do I need to look for.



You can run that motor on 50hz or 60hz.  No problem there.  The speed will just be a little different.  Either about 600 RPM or 300 RPM difference depending on the pole count of the motor.  A rotary phase converter uses a motor, caps and a few other little things to turn single phase into three phase, but the frequency in is the frequency out.  If you have 60hz in you get 60hz out, and that determines the speed of your motor.  A VFD (depending on the model) can provide from a fraction of a cycle upto 1000hz.  (maybe more?)  They can be controlled by an external signal source, programming, or a simple POT depending on the features of that particular. Most 3phase motors at reasonable loads can be speed controlled by frequency from about half speed to about double speed with little or no ill affect.  The problem at lower speeds is most motors have an internal fan for cooling that fails to move enough air when its turning slow.  The motor simply may not have good enough bearings or be well enough balance for higher speeds.  Sometimes you can overcome the heat dissipation issues of low speed operation by installing an external fan that continuously blows air through the motor at full speed regardless of spindle motor speed. 

VFDs have the secondary benefit that at about 60-70% of their rating most can use a single phase input and produce a 3 phase output.  There are just a few that are full rating with single phase input, but they will be advertised as such.  If it doesn't say it then assume you need to derate it by about 30-40%. 

For example:  On my Hurco KMB1 it runs from 96 RPM at 3hz to 3600 RPM at 120hz.  Its controlled by a VFD that uses a 0-10VDC signal from the CNC controller.  The motor actually originally came as two motors.  Inside the case of the motor is a second motor that just drives a fan. On my little high speed mills they have spindles that turn upto 24,000 RPM at 400hz.  I am running single phase input to the VFD. 

An aside note:  Often on small to medium size drill presses guys switch out the single phase motor for a 3 phase motor with a VFD that is either POT controlled or front panel programming controlled so that they can vary speed more easily with fewer belt changes. 

Interesting factoid:  Upto about 1HP there are some name brand VFDs that will also allow you tun run 230V motors with a single phase 120V input.  There are some Chinese VFDs that claim to be able to handle higher HP in this circumstance, but I don't trust them.


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## NCjeeper (Oct 3, 2017)

Nice save.


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## GA Gyro (Oct 3, 2017)

dlane said:


> What ever company that is there, way to wasteful.
> They must be making things for the government  wasting our tax dollars .
> Unfortunately there are too many gov contract companies like that.
> But I'm sure they rite off there wast and don't really pay for it, we do !.



Yeah... I was gonna post that... beat me to it!

Probably better to not carry this much farther...
TPTB at this forum do not like political discussions... regardless of the truth in them.


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## 4GSR (Oct 3, 2017)

dlane said:


> What ever company that is there, way to wasteful.
> They must be making things for the government  wasting our tax dollars .
> Unfortunately there are too many gov contract companies like that.
> But I'm sure they rite off there wast and don't really pay for it, we do !.


Nothing to do with the government or contractors. 
I've seen this same thing happen with many industrial companies out there.  The bean counters are the one's coming in and saying "Get rid of this and that!"  It has to do with the IRS rules on inventory and equipment, and how it is controlled.  Basically, your required to write off "X" amount of dead inventory, equipment, fixtures, and so on.  And if you don't take advantage of this tax write off, you wind up getting taxed for this inventory!  That's why you see this happen.  I've seen high dollar parts made of Inconnel thrown into the dumpster, perfectly new tooling chunked out, out dated machines scrapped off and so on. It just part of Corporations doing business today! Ken


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## British Steel (Oct 3, 2017)

Bob La Londe said:


> You can run that motor on 50hz or 60hz.  No problem there.  The speed will just be a little different.  Either about 600 RPM or 300 RPM difference depending on the pole count of the motor.
> 
> // Add about 20% to the labelled speeds, and if the motor says 415v or 230v, add about 20% to the 3-phase line voltage if you can (motors, most wound components, are "volts per Hertz", e.g. 400v 50Hz Vs 480v 60Hz, the motor current will be about the same)
> 
> ...



Dave H. (the other one)


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## Silverbullet (Oct 4, 2017)

How did anybody live without them in the fortys with a war looming big industry taking off wow . They must have done it all wrong. Now you throw all the best machines ever made cause some lunkhead thinks his cut from the sales is best for the company.


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## olddude (Oct 4, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Nothing to do with the government or contractors.
> I've seen this same thing happen with many industrial companies out there.  The bean counters are the one's coming in and saying "Get rid of this and that!"  It has to do with the IRS rules on inventory and equipment, and how it is controlled.  Basically, your required to write off "X" amount of dead inventory, equipment, fixtures, and so on.  And if you don't take advantage of this tax write off, you wind up getting taxed for this inventory!  That's why you see this happen.  I've seen high dollar parts made of Inconnel thrown into the dumpster, perfectly new tooling chunked out, out dated machines scrapped off and so on. It just part of Corporations doing business today! Ken



Bingo!! You sir are the winner of the debate.....good job! No politics here just the way business is done today. Actually, in this case a little gubment was involved. It's known as OSHA, hey come in to a plant and anything they don't like the looks of they tell you (they don't 'ask' you nicely) to either fix it the way they want you to or get it off the floor before their next visit or face thousands of dollars in fines.

This machine they said needed a couple of guards on the spindle and table slides. They checked on it and the cost was too high to justify it being done so they scrapped it. At one time they had another warehouse that stuff like this went to and about once a year they would auction this stuff off but it always cost more to do this than it was worth. Warehousing was bad enough but once you throw in labor to move this stuff around, inventory it, track it then pay a auction company to come in and auction it off they figured it out that they come out better just getting paid for the scrap. Once the decision is made it's simple, a $15.00 an hour man drives up to it with a folk truck and drops it in the dumpster. Fifteen minutes later it's done, what's that.... like about $3.50 then they wait for the scrap truck to come and get a check at the end of the month.

This company builds very expensive parts that are shipped all over the world and when the estimate is made on a piece of equipment everything is added in to the estimate. Parts, labor, freight, time, engineering and I'm sure a few other things are thrown into the pile then on top of that then they add in a plus or minus figure is added in. They get paid once the estimate is approved before the first nut or bolt is ordered. They have a lead time in the contract and they never miss this time frame and most of the time they ship it weeks before it is due. If a part or piece of material comes in to the loading dock with a scratch on it no matter how small it gets scrapped and who ever sent it in gets hit with the bill for a new one. That's how I ended up with those 316L stainless beams and box tube; about $1400.00 worth of material as the pallet it was on was had been bumped and part of the pallet was crushed. They had another load was at the dock the next morning and this stuff was headed to the scrap bin. My trailer just happened to be in the hood at just the right time and rather than it ending up in the dumpster it landed on my trailer and I drove off into the sunset. LOL


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## olddude (Oct 4, 2017)

Bob La Londe said:


> You can run that motor on 50hz or 60hz.  No problem there.  The speed will just be a little different.  Either about 600 RPM or 300 RPM difference depending on the pole count of the motor.  A rotary phase converter uses a motor, caps and a few other little things to turn single phase into three phase, but the frequency in is the frequency out.  If you have 60hz in you get 60hz out, and that determines the speed of your motor.  A VFD (depending on the model) can provide from a fraction of a cycle upto 1000hz.  (maybe more?)  They can be controlled by an external signal source, programming, or a simple POT depending on the features of that particular. Most 3phase motors at reasonable loads can be speed controlled by frequency from about half speed to about double speed with little or no ill affect.  The problem at lower speeds is most motors have an internal fan for cooling that fails to move enough air when its turning slow.  The motor simply may not have good enough bearings or be well enough balance for higher speeds.  Sometimes you can overcome the heat dissipation issues of low speed operation by installing an external fan that continuously blows air through the motor at full speed regardless of spindle motor speed.
> 
> VFDs have the secondary benefit that at about 60-70% of their rating most can use a single phase input and produce a 3 phase output.  There are just a few that are full rating with single phase input, but they will be advertised as such.  If it doesn't say it then assume you need to derate it by about 30-40%.
> 
> ...



I can see that there is a lot to think about here. I have had the chance to get several machines from there but turned them down because they were 3 phase. I probably would have taken them anyway but didn't have anywhere to store them. I have a problem when trying to research stuff like this because there are so many different variables that go along with it. I guess I just need to find the time to sit down and read some more. I don't see me going CNC any time soon although I would like to but for what I do it would not be cost effective. But being a man that likes big toys it sure would be nice. Another problem I have is space, when I built my dream shop I built an add on that was 12'X32' just for my machines I had at the time. This one puts a load on that space because of it's size. I have one more work bench that I want to put a nice lathe on but I haven't been able to fine anything in my price range. I have a nice old 10F Atlas lathe that I got a year or so ago that I'm still tooling up, but I want something a little more robust and easier to operate.

I hear about people building their own phase converters but with my list of unfinished projects I already have I would probably be too dam old to ever get this bad girl going.


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## Glenn Brooks (Oct 4, 2017)

Very nice machine! I faced the same dilemma ( VFD V. RPC) when I bought a three phase powered lathe.  Eventually I decided to install an RPC from American Rotary.   Main reason - the RPC became my primary three phase power supply for other machines. 

I retrofitted the shop with conduit, mounted outside the walls, to run circuits to a couple of additional outlets, and all circuits are wired through a sub panel, leading off the converter itself. 

Rule of thumb is buy an RPC rated at twice the HP of your motor.  This provides the additional power you need at start up.  Also, two stage motors - say a 3/2hp motor- apparently you would want to add both stages together E.G., 5 hp, then double that to size an  RPC appropriately.  As a result, I went with a 10 hp RPC for my 3/2 hp lathe. Very happy I went this direction.

Glenn


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## olddude (Oct 7, 2017)

Glenn Brooks said:


> Very nice machine! I faced the same dilemma ( VFD V. RPC) when I bought a three phase powered lathe.  Eventually I decided to install an RPC from American Rotary.   Main reason - the RPC became my primary three phase power supply for other machines.
> 
> I retrofitted the shop with conduit, mounted outside the walls, to run circuits to a couple of additional outlets, and all circuits are wired through a sub panel, leading off the converter itself.
> 
> ...



Thanks, yeah she is a real beauty.  I've turned down several nice machines because they were 3 phase and sometimes I wish I had went on and either built or bought a RPC. I know of a guy that built his for his shop and maybe I'll go over there and look at what he has set up and decide weather to build one or spring for a store bought one.  If I buy one it will probably be something like a 7.5 or maybe a 10 hp if the price is right. I've heard of a place in town where you can buy 3 phase motors for like $7 a hp so $70 dollars for a 10 hp motor isn't that bad. I already have a nice empty panel box that would be large enough to hold all the parts that are needed to put it together. Just a little more research is in order before I decide, I just need to figure out what all is needed to make it work. I have a couple more projects that need to be finished before winter sets in so maybe I can get it working by Thanksgiving or Christmas.


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## Silverbullet (Oct 7, 2017)

Beautiful machine , in super condition , you must be livin right. Good luck with a super machine. I'm very glad you saved it , wish I could save a few my self.


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