# Welding Gas Bottle Policy? Airgas and others?



## rwm

I typically use Airgas to supply my Argon. I recently exchanged a bottle with no issue. They are not charging a lease fee. I think I may have owned the original bottle although my current bottle says Airgas on the neck. I have another small bottle that is a slick neck.
I would like to get an Oxygen bottle for brazing. Is anyone familiar with the lease/own gas bottle arrangements? Will I need to buy a bottle and then get it filled? What has your recent experience been? I will be a low volume customer as a hobbyist so leasing looks like it would be prohibitively expensive.


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## benmychree

always best to own your bottle.


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## Latinrascalrg1

The local store wants you to "Buy" the bottle, yet when you bring it in for a fill they will only exchange!  You always get a different tank so its more like buying a timeshare,  you own it but dont really own it!


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## Holescreek

I just went through this after my 15 year lease with a local company ran out.  Airgas bought the local company and was required to honor the original lease.  My original 15 year lease for a large acetylene and 125  oxygen cylinder was $280.  Airgas sent me a bill for $390 to lease the tanks for just 5 years.
I returned the cylinders (oxygen still had 1500 pounds in it) and the desk dude told me  he'd sell me the $125 oxy tank for $284 plus fill and tax.  He said he couldn't sell me the Acetylene cylinder because it was too large, but could sell me a smaller tank, the two together came to $500.  I left him with both tanks so I  could figure out the direction I wanted to take.  Any of the cylinders he'd sell me would be traded in for a full tank for the cost of the fill.  He also said that they do not do exchanges on some privately owned tanks, something to do with a code on the tank.

I could buy Oxy cylinders on Craigslist for $250 but had no way of knowing if Airgas would fill.exchange them.  

I decided to change my torch rig to oxygen/propane and bought the 125 oxy from Airgas.  I had to buy a couple new tips for my smith torch and an adapter to fit my regulator to the propane tank.


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## Cadillac

Gosh it’s been a loong time since I got all the cylinders I have. I have two places I have to go to for the 5 tanks I have. Air gas and praxair both places I purchased the tanks and exchange them when need refilling no problems whatever. Have had the accounts for 20 plus years never a recurring lease fees. Personal account filling 2argons, 75/25 for the mig and ox/acy tanks. I do know one place won’t take another places bottle and I would think a no name would be the same scenario. Being your own you’d have to get it pressure tested every so often and the big companies arnt gonna take the change of some old tank.


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## pontiac428

Let's see, I've got 2x Oxygen, 2x Acetylene, 2x Argon, 2x 75/25, 1x CO2, 1x Stargold... The suppliers call these COCs, or customer owned containers.  You pay a different rate for gas based on the expense of renewing the tanks than you would on a leased tank.  I used to swap cylinders that were out of hydro without an extra charge, now they charge a few bucks for that.  I recently bought a new 25 lb CO2 tank that cost $150 with a fill, and now I pay $50 each time I fill it for the gas.  I think my big Stargold bottle cost under $200, but it's the biggest cylinder in the lineup.  It's always been easier to exchange, because my bottles may have been in my garage for (sometimes) years but when I exchange I get a clean bottle with a new valve and a fresh coat of paint.


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## rwm

I'm still confused about this. If I have a bottle that says Airgas on the neck, how do they know if I own it? I originally went in with my own tank and exchanged for an Airgas tank. Do they just go by what my account says? Right now my account says I have 0 tanks, I assume that means I own them?
Robert


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## pontiac428

Usually lease tanks are marked.  Airgas may have been the original owner of that tank (assuming it says airgas on the collar) but they turn their lease tank inventory over and old ones become COCs.  If you bring in a supplier-owned tank, they'll tell you.  Those guys know what their leased tanks look like.  They usually have a lease life of 10 years, so if your tank is older than that by the stamps on the shoulder, it's likely a COC free and clear.


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## Cadillac

I would think if it says airgas on the bottle and u bring it there you will have no problems. I always say I’m a cash account if that means anything. Pontiac is right they know their tanks and colors. And yes athey do have different rates for different accounts. My argon is half the price at airgas than prax.


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## Joeman77

In this area the biggest tank you can ""Own" in shielding or Oxygen is 80 cubic foot, I've also heard them called a "Q", the Acetylene mate to them is a #2. They let you "Own" those or anything smaller. You can take any of those and swap them out anywhere that sells welding gas, I've even crossed a state line or 2 for swap when need be.  The Q's run about $200 on Ebay, #2 Acetylene about the same, I've bought several of the smaller ones  MC's, B's, 40 Cubes etc at rummage sales for a few bucks. My tanks are marked by Everybody, depending where they were filled last. I found out the hard-way, in this area anyway, anything bigger than that "Without Papers" is a very expensive paper-weight or door-stop.
 And I agree with Pontiac428, buy or collect them in pairs (at minimum), they alway tend to run out on Saturday, Sunday or a holiday weekend when you're down till at least Monday. Alway keep a fall-back, even if it's a smaller size, never know when you'll need to finish out a job.


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## rwm

So if I want to get an O2 bottle I should buy the bottle from them? I have a small argon bottle. I don't suppose you could put o2 in that? I assume oxidizers use a different setup?
Robert

Edit: It appears that you can go from an O2 bottle to Ar but not the reverse.
R


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## pontiac428

You can go from O2 to argon with a valve change, because they are 3000 psi tanks.  You can't do the opposite, because systems need to be "clean for oxygen" which used to mean a freon wash to get the hydrocarbons out.  It's not worth trying to hang on to a particular tank, what you get from exchange is usually a fresh hydro, valve, and paint.  It doesn't matter how old a tank is, my dad had a set of five 4500 psi tanks that were made in the 1930s by Union Carbide that passed hydro year after year.  One O2 bottle I have now is from WWII.  It's clean and was freshly tested when I got it.

I can't believe Indiana limits you to 80 cubic feet.  That's a baby tank.  I've never been asked for papers of any kind in CA, WA, and NV.  I assume it's the state DOT flexing its oversight?


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## Joeman77

pontiac428 said:


> You can go from O2 to argon with a valve change, because they are 3000 psi tanks.  You can't do the opposite, because systems need to be "clean for oxygen" which used to mean a freon wash to get the hydrocarbons out.  It's not worth trying to hang on to a particular tank, what you get from exchange is usually a fresh hydro, valve, and paint.  It doesn't matter how old a tank is, my dad had a set of five 4500 psi tanks that were made in the 1930s by Union Carbide that passed hydro year after year.  One O2 bottle I have now is from WWII.  It's clean and was freshly tested when I got it.
> 
> I can't believe Indiana limits you to 80 cubic feet.  That's a baby tank.  I've never been asked for papers of any kind in CA, WA, and NV.  I assume it's the state DOT flexing its oversight?



 As far as changing gases, I've just done that with at the time of a tank swap. That's why I a fan of lots of backups, of everything, 2 tanks per machine. But they're smallish tanks.
    I'm not sure it's a law about the size thing, maybe just one of those unwritten things among suppliers.


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## Janderso

Didn't we just talk about this?
I just paid big bucks for the big tanks, Co2, Argon plus the Argon tank plus the O2 and Acety.
I own them. The guys at the welding shop know me. I exchange them, they charge me for the gas and off I go.
If I move out of their market area?
I assume I would have to pay.....
This process is full of holes and us consumers pay.


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## Cooter Brown

Joeman77 said:


> In this area the biggest tank you can ""Own" in shielding or Oxygen is 80 cubic foot,



That's crazy I have a 330 cubic foot oxy tank, a 300 cubic foot tank for acetylene and two 150 cubic foot tanks for my shielding gas.... I own them all no leased tanks....

Over here I buy used tanks from Craigslist and take them to Baker's Gas they charge me a $40 test fee and give me a new full tank


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## Eddyde

The way I see it when it comes to compressed gas tanks, possession equals ownership. I have acquired tanks from various sources and never had an issue getting them filled or exchanged, regardless of the name on the tank or where I was getting it filled. The only thing that comes up sometimes is the tank test has expired then I have to pay an additional fee for a tank test. On that note, I now ask for a recently tested exchange tanks as I sometimes take a couple years to go through a whole tank of gas.


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## MAKEITOUTOFWOOD

My local the largest customer owned tank is 60. Really makes me sad. You go through that in no time. Cost about $38 to fill.


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## COMachinist

All I can say is run don’t walk away from air gas. I almost lost a battle with them for my oxy tank they said was theirs and wanted a lease for over 500.00 bucks. My tank is clearly marked as customer owned tank. I have owned that tank for over 25 yr. i have had it refilled when the local company was my welding shop before Air gas holes bought them out and jacked the price to the sky. I have now bought an acetylene  tank from a private owned shop. I could not be happier. I will never deal or buy from any company that I don’t know the owner by his first name.
CH


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## NCjeeper

COMachinist said:


> All I can say is run don’t walk away from air gas.


Problem is Air gas bought up all the little guys in and around Charlotte. There is no other place to go. I own my bottles but they say air gas on them. I just pull up to the dock. Drop off the empty. Go inside and tell them what I need and they pull out a full bottle of the same size and off I go. Now their Argon prices are all over the place. Different from day to day and from counter salesman to counter salesman. One day I stood in line for half an hour because they were short staffed. For my wait they only charged my 25 bucks for my bottle of Argon (normally $60). So obviously they are over charging the little guy.


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## pontiac428

Welding suppliers are suppliers, and suppliers have different tiers.  Just like NAPA auto parts.  The lowest volume pays the highest price.  This is where it pays to know people, either behind the counter or in front of it.  If you know someone with a business account, ask if you can use it for cash transactions.  My dad was a Praxair regional rep, so I learned that trick early.


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## Latinrascalrg1

pontiac428 said:


> Welding suppliers are suppliers, and suppliers have different tiers.  Just like NAPA auto parts.  The lowest volume pays the highest price.  This is where it pays to know people, either behind the counter or in front of it.  If you know someone with a business account, ask if you can use it for cash transactions.  My dad was a Praxair regional rep, so I learned that trick early.


Just more proof that Its not about what you know so much as it is about WHO you know!


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## gr8legs

In my limited experience, if a bottle has a supplier's name cast into the top of the cylinder it is presumed that the tank is leased, not customer owned. 

Additionally, some size tanks are always customer owned, but I haven't figured out which are which.

Also, when you purchase a cylinder be sure to keep the sales receipt in a safe place.

The takeaway - when you exchange a bottle be sure the new one you get does not have a supplier's name cast into it - getting one of those often leads to trubble.

Stu


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## Aaron_W

With my local supplier I bought one of their tanks (a used one) and just exchange when I get a refill. They said I have the option of keeping a specific tank if I want to but then I have to wait to get filled and become responsible for the cost of testing.



pontiac428 said:


> Welding suppliers are suppliers, and suppliers have different tiers.  Just like NAPA auto parts.  The lowest volume pays the highest price.  This is where it pays to know people, either behind the counter or in front of it.  If you know someone with a business account, ask if you can use it for cash transactions.  My dad was a Praxair regional rep, so I learned that trick early.



I seem to be lucky, both the local metal supply and the welding supply seem friendly towards small scale customers / hobbyists. I know what I spend with them is peanuts compared to their commercial accounts, but they never treat me like I'm a bother, and often give me a discount in one way or another.
The welding shop gave me a sizable student discount on my PPE and basic tools, and I got the welder at the same price as several online dealers. The metal yard is always finding little ways to save me some money, like finding a cut off of about the size I want, giving me a little more material and saving me the cut fee. On scrap they always round down 5 or 10lbs and for little stuff have often just given it to me.

A lot of the guys at both places seem to have their own hobby projects so not sure if it is just helping out another hobbyist or a more calculated. the little guys are more likely to shop at Amazon so make them feel welcome.

Seeing comments from others I've realized I have it pretty good here.


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## Buffalo21

My LWS(ers) won’t fill any customer owned tanks, have not for the last 5-6 years, either lease or no gas, the only exceptions are propane and very small Argon/CO2 bottles for small mig welders.


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## rwm




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## Tim9

The big boys in the gas supply business are running rackets. It’s best to try and find a mom and pop industrial gas supplier. They are always fair. But...big boys are squeezing them out.  This has been going on for decades now .


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## rwm

I am still dependent on them for Argon. That is unless I build my air liquidification facility...

Robert


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## Latinrascalrg1

rwm said:


> View attachment 306580
> 
> 
> I am still dependent on them for Argon. That is unless I build my air liquidification facility...
> 
> Robert


Do you need to fill up a tank or does it produce enough oxygen to run it straight off the tap? I honestly had no idea that would work like that, didn't think it concentrated enough oxygen to feed a torch.


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## rwm

I can run it straight off the output. That is a Smith Little Torch so it is small. It is great for high temp soldering/brazing on smaller parts, say 1" diameter or less. That is pretty much what I do. That pic was taken at 2 liters/min. The output will go up to 5 L/min. You could actually calculate the theoretical BTU output based on the O2 consumption if you were smarter that me.
I plan to get a new tip for this torch and probably put a check valve flashback arrestor on the output.
BTW I paid $100 for that generator with less than 5K hours on it!
Robert


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## Eddyde

rwm said:


> I can run it straight off the output. That is a Smith Little Torch so it is small. It is great for high temp soldering/brazing on smaller parts, say 1" diameter or less. That is pretty much what I do. That pic was taken at 2 liters/min. The output will go up to 5 L/min. You could actually calculate the theoretical BTU output based on the O2 consumption if you were smarter that me.
> I plan to get a new tip for this torch and probably put a check valve flashback arrestor on the output.
> BTW I paid $100 for that generator with less than 5K hours on it!
> Robert


Thanks, I had been wondering about oxygen concentrators for welding, I suppose you could gang them together for increased output.


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## Superburban

Eddyde said:


> Thanks, I had been wondering about oxygen concentrators for welding, *I suppose you could gang them together for increased output.*


You can gain more volume of oxygen concentrated air, but cannot increase the oxygen content. Unless maybe if you could run them in series. IIRc, the two a scarfed up over the summer, are rated for 85 to 85 percent O2, and up to 5 liters per minute volume. The measured pressure is only 8 PSI. Its been so long since I had my OA tanks out, I do not remember if that is enough pressure.

They have a self test feature when turned on, I'm thinking it measures teh O2%. I over paid when I picked up three last spring, for free. They all have lots of time on them, but two still passed the startup test. The third, I disected to see the insides.

One of the companies has a compressor, so you can fill small lunch box size O2 tanks.


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## MrWhoopee

My LWS is an Airgas store. When I bought my TIG welder, I called them to find out about bottle policy. They told me as long as it isn't stamped "Rental" on the neck ring I could get it refilled. I found an 80 cu. ft. argon tank on CL for $100. I recently took it in for a refill, they just swapped bottles. Of course, the refill was $90, so they can afford to be accommodating.


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## erikmannie

MrWhoopee said:


> My LWS is an Airgas store. When I bought my TIG welder, I called them to find out about bottle policy. They told me as long as it isn't stamped "Rental" on the neck ring I could get it refilled. I found an 80 cu. ft. argon tank on CL for $100. I recently took it in for a refill, they just swapped bottles. Of course, the refill was $90, so they can afford to be accommodating.



$90 for 80 cu, ft. of Argon is an astronomical price! I pay $33-40 for that here in Santa Rosa, CA.

I bought two 80 cu. ft. Argon cylinders from Praxair. When I moved to the other side of town, I bought two C25 cylinders and two oxygen cylinders from Matheson, all of which were 80 cu. ft. I also bought a 120 cu. ft. cylinder of acetylene. I chose to buy all of my cylinders in order to avoid recurring costs.

Matheson is great about filling the aforementioned Q size cylinders that I bought from Praxair.

Praxair did not have 100% Argon about half the time, but so far Matheson has always had what I needed.

I agree about always having a spare, full cylinder on hand. When my first one becomes empty, I switch to the backup and make it a priority to get the other one filled.

I do not own a pickup truck so I have to borrow one when I refill my acetylene. They won’t allow acteylene to travel in my minivan. 

Finally, Matheson stipulates that anything larger than 80 cu. ft. (of any gas) must be transported in a pickup truck.


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