# need a new mill



## Bd180 (Jul 30, 2014)

Hi guys my name is Bill, I`m looking for a replacement for my knee mill and I`m pretty shure I want a Industrial Hobby clone any one know of suppliers other than Charter Oak. Nothing against them just want to caparison shop. Thanks Bill.


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## Stonebriar (Jul 30, 2014)

Well Bill I have the Precision Mathews PM935TV knee mill and I am *very* happy with it.  Should you have any questions on the PM machines you can Private Message RayC on this board as he is Matt's representative on this site.  He is very knowledgeable.  

I am sure others will chime in with their brand of choice.

Rick


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## Smudgemo (Jul 30, 2014)

I replaced my G0704 with the Precision Mathews PM 935 TS and I want to do a happy-dance every time I use it.  I’d think long and hard about going away from a knee mill.  The bench mills w/o a knee can be great, but barring unforeseen circumstances, I’d never go back.

-Ryan


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## zmotorsports (Jul 30, 2014)

I can attest to what Ryan said about going away from a knee mill to a benchtop, I would reconsider that.  I work with a knee mill (BP clone) at work and had a 3-in-1 machine at home until a few months ago.  I had originally decided to going with the Precision Mathews PM932PDF which is a RF-45 size (benchtop) but couldn't wrap my head around the idea of going not having/using a knee mill.  I then ordered the PM935TV, same as Ryan. and I am awaiting shipment at the moment.  It is a 2/3 size Bridgeport clone with a full-featured Bridgeport head.  It also has 12" of Y-axis travel which is unheard of in this size machine.

Mike.


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## Bd180 (Jul 31, 2014)

I appreciate the input guys but 5-6 k for a mill is out of my price range. So that leaves me with used Bridgeport/ clone or Charter Oak automation new industrial hobbies clone . Travels are 26x12 x 22 x4.75 for $2500 plus shipping. Some of the used stuff I've been looking at in that price range scares me.


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## Uglydog (Jul 31, 2014)

I've been watching this Cincy Mill in Largo Florida. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cincinnati-...076?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e889fddc

Nothing against the imports or the Bridgys (which I've used at the Tech School).
But, I'd take another Cincy if I had it to do over again.

Daryl
MN


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## tmarks11 (Jul 31, 2014)

Bd180 said:


> ... or Charter Oak automation new industrial hobbies clone...



)

Just a small quibble with that statement.  It is not a "industrial hobbies clone".  

Industrial Hobbies sold their business, and the new owner renamed it "Charter Oak".  It is the same machine that was sold under the Industrial Hobbies label. 

Now if you wanted to call it a "Rong Fu 45" clone, that would be accurate, although it has been heavily modified over about a decade with beefed up table and head swivel.

Machine Tool Warehouse in Ontario used to sell one of these, had the gall to call it "Industrial Hobbies Clone" on their website!

Why is Charter Oak/IH the only RF45 machine you are looking at?

Grizzly sells their G0755 for $2250, which is a good deal, as it has both power headstock elevation (which is important on a mill/drill), and x-axis power feed (which is very nice to have).  Grizzly does sell a couple cheaper mill/drills, but I think this is the best choice of the bunch. This is the same machine that Precision Matthews sells as the PM-932M for $2200, although it also includes a quill DRO (also very nice to have).  I don't think you can go wrong with either the Grizzly or the PM variant.

Another good alternative is Enco. They have had their RF45 machine on sale for $2200 (for about 3 months now), and 20% off coupon sales come along about once a month.  Occasionally, their RF45 clone also shows up in their sale flier as "free shipping", and than you slap a 20% off on top of that, and you got a good deal. No power feed or headstock elevation, however.

My vote (since we are on the Precision Matthews forum) would be the PM-932M over the IH.  Why? Matt has been in business for a decade, with tons of satisfied customers.  Charter Oak is just starting out... hard to tell where they will go, but they are the 4th owner in the past 6 years.  Grizzly of course has been selling machine tools since 1983.


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## nickmckinney (Jul 31, 2014)

Bd180 said:


> I appreciate the input guys but 5-6 k for a mill is out of my price range.



So what is your price range?


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## Bd180 (Aug 1, 2014)

Pm932 travels x22" y8" z5"  head 17" , Charter oak x26" y12" z4.75 head 22" plus heavier colum and base. Price range under 2500 plus ship. The charter oak machine is not a rf45.


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## Bd180 (Aug 1, 2014)

Ugly dog I looked at that cincy emailed the guy to find out what type of tooling it uses no answers yet. Thanks for the lead.


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## tmarks11 (Aug 1, 2014)

Bd180 said:


> The charter oak machine is not a rf45.



Charter Oak... aka Industrial Hobbies... is indeed an RF45 clone.  IH started life using the ZAY7045 (a Rong Fu 45 clone), using the same machine that Bob Bertrand from Lathemaster imported back in 2005... they actually started out with Bob supplying them machines, and then went factory direct. IIRC.

They worked with the manufacturer on modifications over the years, adding a larger table and beefed-up back-column-swivel collar and larger column dovetail. But yes, it evolved from an RF-45 clone in the beginning.

If you haven't been there yet, than I recommend you jump over to cnczone, and read recent posts in the Charter Oak/IH forum.  Somebody there just purchase one of the manual machines.




Bd180 said:


> ...I`m pretty shure I want a Industrial Hobby clone any one know of suppliers other than Charter Oak


And to answer your original question: if you want a square column mill (ie. RF45 clone in the common vernacular) with the table size and XYZ movement of the IH machine, than you will have to buy it from IH.  Nobody else in North America imports this machine.  

As I said above, Machine Tool Warehouse in Ontario used to import them (as late as Fall of last year), but shipping and fees made buying from them about $500 more than buying from IH if you lived in the US. Regardless, MTW doesn't market this mill anymore (and indeed seems not to market any machine), so you are much better off going to Charter Oak.

Don't get too excited by this link, as this is an orphan page that isn't actually linked to by MTW home page, but you can see they used to sell this machine:

https://www.machinetoolswarehouse.com/xcart/catalog/MD001-IH-Clone-p-16133.html


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## nickmckinney (Aug 1, 2014)

Bd180 said:


> Pm932 travels x22" y8" z5"  head 17" , Charter oak x26" y12" z4.75 head 22" plus heavier colum and base. Price range under 2500 plus ship. The charter oak machine is not a rf45.




How much space do you have as good used industrial mills are a dime a dozen here in Florida. I could have bought 20 nice used full size mills in the last 6 months for $2500 or less each but its been 4 decent lathes listed for $5000 or less in that time (this area is a death zone for good used lathes)


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## zmotorsports (Aug 1, 2014)

nickmckinney said:


> How much space do you have as good used industrial mills are a dime a dozen here in Florida. I could have bought 20 nice used full size mills in the last 6 months for $2500 or less each but its been 4 decent lathes listed for $5000 or less in that time (this area is a death zone for good used lathes)



Boy, how would that be?  I live in a machinery desert here and what little used equipment there is, is freakin' huge and worn out.

Mike.


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## nickmckinney (Aug 1, 2014)

zmotorsports said:


> Boy, how would that be?  I live in a machinery desert here and what little used equipment there is, is freakin' huge and worn out.
> 
> Mike.




Mike here is the classic local example, its a bit over the OP budget at $3K though :whistle:





I have a very nice, and well maintained Acra Mill milling machine.  Recently cleaned and inspected. Hi-lo settings, and lots of tooling  included. Serial no 502562, 2hp motor, Heidenhain digital readout, power feed on x axis, Pyh vice, Delivery and rigging available, Also can load to your truck with forklift for no extra charge.

http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/tls/4537209503.html


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## Bd180 (Aug 1, 2014)

Tmarks that's the info I was looking for, charter oak is the only place to buy the IH size mill thank you.


Zmotorsports I just moved from southern New Mexico, I know how you feel you should see all the machinery sitting outside at a af base near white sands that they won't sell local.


nick I will check out that machine in the next few days, there is a Cincinnati in largo also but haven't been able to id what type of tooling it uses.

thanks all


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## nickmckinney (Aug 1, 2014)

IMHO I would stay away from the Cincinnati unless you go there to test it yourself and tram it all out to see how much wear it has. Too many local machine suppliers want to paint a pile of junk. Not from the same place but my buddy recently bought a beautiful massive Gorton with a primo paint job and the spindle motor doesn't even work...................


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## Uglydog (Aug 2, 2014)

There are 12 proprietary Cincy Monoset Collets on the table. They are worth $25-$50 each used. $250 each to get hardinge reproductions. Did you see the DRO? That's if you want DRO. Note the power down feed problem.

Daryl
MN


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## tmarks11 (Aug 2, 2014)

nickmckinney said:


> ... bought a beautiful massive Gorton with a primo paint job and the spindle motor doesn't even work...................


Shiny paint job generally means run away, in my book.  Unless you are buying straight from a reputable machine rebuilder.

I like zooming in on the ebay adds for this type of equipment, and noting the poor masking job around the label plates, painted over bolts, etc. $5 for a can of rustolium is not "owner refurbished", regardless of what they claim.

Back to the OP/OT:

Bill-

what kind of knee mill do you have, and why do you want to make the job to a bench top?


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## tmarks11 (Aug 5, 2014)

OK, here is the killer deal.

Enco has their RF45 clone on sale for Aug for $2195 (no surprise) but with free shipping ($400 savings there).

They are running a 30% sale (no exclusions), coupon code: 84THR (this coupon says it expires on 8/4 at 11:00 pm, but like many enco sales works for an extra day after that).

Grand total:$1536.50.

That is like what the machines sold for in 2006.


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