# Rotary table questions



## yota (Oct 13, 2021)

I have a new PM 932M mill.  currently have a 4in vise on it, think a 6" would have fit nicely but it's fine for now.   considering getting a rotary table.  assume 6" would be the right size for this mill?  also, seems like having a tilt option would be useful.  advice and opinions welcome.    thanks!


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## MyLilMule (Oct 13, 2021)

I would consider an 8" for that size mill. I have an 8" for my 9x42 Bridgeport and it seems small.


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## aliva (Oct 13, 2021)

I would go with 8" or larger, you may upgrade your mill in the future.


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## Suzuki4evr (Oct 13, 2021)

aliva said:


> I would go with 8" or larger, you may upgrade your mill in the future.


What @aliva said. 8" or 10" if you can afford it.


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## woodchucker (Oct 13, 2021)

is 932 a 9x32 table? I tried looking up the specs?
just remember that an 8" rotary is much heavier than a 6"
I would not consider a 10" for that mill.  A knee mill, yes, but a bigger table than 9x32..
An 8" rotary table is not a small rotary? figure around 65 lbs. a 6" about 35 lbs.


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## Suzuki4evr (Oct 13, 2021)

You are probably right about the weight and size. Maybe it is because I have a 6" and sometimes need an 8"


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## Larry$ (Oct 13, 2021)

I went with an 8" but wanted a 10". Looked @ the weight of the 10 and took the 8! BUT by the time you try to clamp some things to an 8" the means of clamping may take up a lot of the real estate.  Next step make a 11" aluminum plate to extend the area. Works but need to be careful tightening the hold downs. Then I wanted to put a chuck on. Got a nice 8" chuck but by the time the chuck is mounted the assembly is too heavy for an old man. So I have to take the chuck off each time PIA! It is a very nice chuck that I machined a back plat to fit the D1-4 spindle on the lathe. I got an excellent very "snug", read a bit too tight, fit so it's another PIA to change. Can't win! Much depends on your use as to size but for me I wouldn't like to have less than an 8". I've used the indexing plates a few times. Can be a head scratcher to learn to use. Great for cutting gears though. Put blocks on the bottom of the RT that precisely fit the T slots of the mill. Makes setup easier. When setting up vertically you can run in to the problem of stick-out and mill spindle/tooling limiting how close to the RT you can machine. Turns out a tailstock is nearly always required. 
YEA OL' Rabbet hole, again!


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## yota (Oct 13, 2021)

hadn't even thought about an 8".  assumed it would be to large.    there is an 8" Phase II for sale a few miles from me for 265.00 but the ad says the table locks do not work.  not sure what's involved in that repair.


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## yota (Oct 13, 2021)

what about the tilt option?  would that be useful or just something to throw off the accuracy?   I have an old Stanley tilting vice for my drill press I guess I could use if I need it.


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## Aukai (Oct 13, 2021)

This is the 4", and a Kurt 6" on a 9 x 32 table.


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## Dabbler (Oct 13, 2021)

Tilting is something needed so seldom, you can always build yourself a steel wedge for that *one* job...

I bought a 6" that I never needed, traded it for a 10" that the other guy couldn't use, but I ended up with an 8" Vertex, which I love.  Here's why:

1) it is the biggest I can lift myself without help
2) it is large enough to clamp to for most small jobs.
3) the slots let me use my standard 1/2" hold down set (using custom T nuts)
4) it stores in a smallish box out of the way...
5) very accurate
6) small enough to go on the table without removing the vice
7) the dial is large enough to read easily

Why not the 10"

1) too heavy
2) Not much work I do needs the extra space
3) for that odd job, I clamp a large fixture plate on my 8" and take light cuts


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## yota (Oct 13, 2021)

Aukai said:


> This is the 4", and a Kurt 6" on a 9 x 32 table.


yeah, huge difference.  when I bought the 4" vise I had a 728VT ordered.  over the months of waiting I decided I wanted a bigger heavier mill but already had the 4" vise by then.  my questions aren't about the vise as its too late now (for now).  my questions are about what size rotary table to get.  so far I'm hearing 8".


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## yota (Oct 13, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> is 932 a 9x32 table? I tried looking up the specs?
> just remember that an 8" rotary is much heavier than a 6"
> I would not consider a 10" for that mill.  A knee mill, yes, but a bigger table than 9x32..
> An 8" rotary table is not a small rotary? figure around 65 lbs. a 6" about 35 lbs.


yes, 9x32.   thanks.


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## Aukai (Oct 14, 2021)

Other than weight from my reading people are not wishing they went smaller, conversely I have seen I wish I went bigger on the RT. 8" seems to be the happy medium, that is just my take from reading posts....


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## Dabbler (Oct 14, 2021)

If you have a way to lift a 10" (weighing over 175 lbs), then go for it, if it will fit your table - but there's no need for the 700$-2000$ uplift in price if most of your work fits in a 5" cube, or is able to be held down on an 8" table...


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## Larry$ (Oct 14, 2021)

Aukai said:


> This is the 4", and a Kurt 6" on a 9 x 32 table


Interesting mounting of the 6" vice to the outer T slot. I also have a 9" table but the vice is mounted to the center slot. The tooling easily reaches the fixed jaw. If I need to get further out on a work piece I can extend the arm. Not saying one way is better than the other, just curious.


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## Aukai (Oct 14, 2021)

I had issues in the center slot, but do not remember, intuitively that is where I started, it looks like it would limit Y travel inward.


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## Winegrower (Oct 14, 2021)

I have a 12” Bridgeport rotary table.  It is certainly not too big for my 9”x42” table, and though it‘s heavy, I can lift it…I put it in the car trunk the other day to use in another shop.  But mainly I keep it on a rolling cart, using the power Z to match cart and table height and slide it over.    I admit I don’t use it much, but at times it’s about the only solution.    It’s pretty quick to swap in and get centered…sometimes I remove the vise, but generally not necessary.   It’s beautifully smooth and precise.

Get the biggest table you can find and afford.


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## Larry$ (Oct 14, 2021)

Aukai said:


> it looks like it would limit Y travel inward.


My vice does overhang the back side of the table a little. I chose to mount my DRO scale on the back of the table so I could continue to use the X travel stops on the front edge of the table. The result is the vice over hang doesn't affect how far in I can move. It is really easy to extend the arm to reach further out on the work clamped in the vice & I gain that couple of inches before needing to extend by having the vice mounted to the center slot. I sometimes keep the rotary table mounted at the same time as the vice. When I do that I slide the vice down to more balance the weight of the two on the (49") table. When I've had the load on the table near the ends I've noticed a lot more drag on the X travel. Uneven wear, pry? 
How many of you just leave the RT & vice mounted most of the time? I've got a cheap vice that I'll mount so I can hold long parts sticking out from the Kurt.


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## fursphere (Oct 15, 2021)

Not sure which brands you folks are looking at, but comparing two vertex rotarys...

https://www.penntoolco.com/vertex-8-horizontal-vertical-low-profile-rotary-table-hv8-20-008-2/    - 66 lbs

https://www.penntoolco.com/vertex-10-horizontal-vertical-low-profile-rotary-table-hv-10-20-010-2/ - 117 lbs

117 pounds is quite a bit less than 175 lbs as someone else mentioned.    But given the choice, I'd go for the 8"  @ 66 lbs.


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## yota (Oct 15, 2021)

this is the 8" RT I mentioned above was on Craigslist.  got it this am.  have to disassemble and fix the table locks.  one the handle is broken, the other is broken completely off.  might be able to get it out without disassembly, not sure.   this has an oil tank with a glass oil level window.

this thing is a beast and must weigh over 60 lbs.  It dwarfs my 4" vise.  I think the vise could mount on top of it.   wouldn't want to throw around anything heavier than this honestly.


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## Dabbler (Oct 15, 2021)

looks good.  It is waaaay lighter than my 10", and about the weight of my Vertex 8"

Nice buy.


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## woodchucker (Oct 15, 2021)

she's a beauty. the locks should be an easy repair.  change that oil out, it's the least you can do.. just to ensure that if there was any moisture trapped you get it out.

Did it come with a lifting belt for your back?


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## yota (Oct 15, 2021)

its new old, doesn't look like it was used much if at all.   not sure how the locks got damaged, seller said he got it that way.  he had a lot of machinery and tooling.  but yeah, not a fan of the grease or oil in Chinese machinery.


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## Larry$ (Oct 15, 2021)

RTs are pretty easy to disassemble and put back together. Worth it to make sure it is clean. 
I did that to my Vertex 8" when I got it. But it was clean inside. 
Looks like yours came with T slot keys, nice.


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## yota (Oct 15, 2021)

I watched a youtube of a Vertex disassembly and it was pretty basic.   I will need to anyway as the part of one lock left will not unscrew.  I think it must have a shoe on the inside to lock against the table and they will have to come out from the inside.


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## pacifica (Oct 15, 2021)

Larry$ said:


> My vice does overhang the back side of the table a little. I chose to mount my DRO scale on the back of the table so I could continue to use the X travel stops on the front edge of the table. The result is the vice over hang doesn't affect how far in I can move. It is really easy to extend the arm to reach further out on the work clamped in the vice & I gain that couple of inches before needing to extend by having the vice mounted to the center slot. I sometimes keep the rotary table mounted at the same time as the vice. When I do that I slide the vice down to more balance the weight of the two on the (49") table. When I've had the load on the table near the ends I've noticed a lot more drag on the X travel. Uneven wear, pry?
> How many of you just leave the RT & vice mounted most of the time? I've got a cheap vice that I'll mount so I can hold long parts sticking out from the Kurt.


My phase 2  8" rotary table has a chuck on it so I have a 1/4 ton hoist above the mill to lift it up-works good and makes it easy to use the rotarytable. I usually leave the 6" vise in place so it is level and readyto go.
I use the vise a lot , the rotary table not as often.Most of the time it is a little difficult and takes some thinking to rigidly attach work to the rotary table-that's the reason bigger is better.


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## yota (Oct 16, 2021)

I looked it up, weighs 83 lbs.


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## yota (Oct 16, 2021)

here are the broken parts.  one just has the leverage rod broken off the handle.  the other was snapped completely off.  I had to drill and thread it and use the old large nut/bolt/washer stack puller method.  it came out hard and the good one just pulled out by hand.  these were held in by tiny dog point set screws that go in from the underside.  they are eccentric cut on the inside end where they actuate some type of brake shoe against the table when they are turned.   hope they sell these as I have no idea how to do the eccentric ends.   newbeeee.

the oil tank seems to have never been filled.   there is oil on the parts from assembly at the factory.


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## Just for fun (Oct 16, 2021)

Looks like a project!


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## yota (Oct 16, 2021)

Just for fun said:


> Looks like a project!


yeah, I only need 1 plus 2 handles.   I need to youtube how to cut the eccentric end section.


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## Dabbler (Oct 16, 2021)

@yota   You indicate the round shaft on a 4 jaw chuck offset by the eccentric distance


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## yota (Oct 16, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @yota   You indicate the round shaft on a 4 jaw chuck offset by the eccentric distance


thanks!  I assume that since the 4 jaw isn't self centering you make the 1st cut and then move all the jaws toward you for the offset?

I guess it wouldn't matter the direction it is offset.


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## Dabbler (Oct 16, 2021)

It has to be 'clocked' to the handle hole, which is done after turning the eccentric.  I hope this helps.


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## yota (Oct 17, 2021)

thanks everyone for your input and suggestions.


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## yota (Oct 23, 2021)

Just for fun said:


> Looks like a project!


finally got back to this.   tried to copy the handle ball on the lathe.   didn't go too well.  didn't do any research, just tried to do it with a regular cutting tool after drilling out the large hole.  the outside radius went surprising well but screwed up the radius on the other side.  after failing miserably I googled it and found out there are actually radius cutters.  who knew?


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## Larry$ (Oct 23, 2021)

Google is your friend!
This would have been fairly easy with a ball turning attachment on your lathe.


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## woodchucker (Oct 23, 2021)

Radius cutters are not that hard to make. But the larger they are the more they chatter, at least on smaller lathes.
if you want to make a radius cutter dykem the tool, draw your radius on it, and grind away. On a big radius I have used an angle grinder with a cut off wheel and slit it short of the line over and over. then I have removed the waste with the cut off.
Then I take points and using an air grinder use the point to final shape it. I don't like using the corner of my 6 or 8 inch bench grinders.

pink or white points are soft enough to grind away.

But a ball cutter would be a cake walk.  I have used my compound loosened (swivel) and cut balls that way before I got a boring head. it worked well, just go slow.


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## yota (Oct 23, 2021)

Larry$ said:


> Google is your friend!
> This would have been fairly easy with a ball turning attachment on your lathe.


if I had a ball turning attachment LOL.


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## Janderso (Oct 23, 2021)

Suzuki4evr said:


> What @aliva said. 8" or 10" if you can afford it.


If you go with a 10”, just know you have to ask your neighbor to come over for a beer to entice him to help lift the darn thing.


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## tjb (Oct 23, 2021)

Here's a good youtube tutorial on making a ball turner for a small lathe:


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## yota (Oct 23, 2021)

cool vid.  that boring head is huge.


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## woodchucker (Oct 23, 2021)

nah, it just looks big on a little lathe. that's smaller than a 9" lathe I think


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## tjb (Oct 23, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> nah, it just looks big on a little lathe. that's smaller than a 9" lathe I think


Correct - I think it's a 9".  It's a normal size boring head.  Good video for a tutorial on making one.


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## woodchucker (Oct 23, 2021)

tjb said:


> Correct - I think it's a 9".  It's a normal size boring head.  Good video for a tutorial on making one.


just looked it up, an ML7 is a 7" lathe... so smaller yet...


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## yota (Oct 24, 2021)

got it close enough.  just cut a couple of angles then rounded off with a file and sandpaper on the lathe.


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## yota (Oct 24, 2021)

ne
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
xt the hard part, copying the unbroken shaft with the eccentric cut on the end.


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## Jake P (Oct 24, 2021)

Janderso said:


> If you go with a 10”, just know you have to ask your neighbor to come over for a beer to entice him to help lift the darn thing.


I have a 10" Vertex and it weighs almost identical to my Kurt DX6, about 80 lbs.  I made a rolling cart the same height as my mill table and moving the two back and forth is pretty easy.  Of course this supposes that lifting 80 lbs. is not an issue for you.  If you had to pick it up off the floor each time that might be different!


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## Janderso (Oct 25, 2021)

Jake P said:


> I have a 10" Vertex and it weighs almost identical to my Kurt DX6, about 80 lbs.  I made a rolling cart the same height as my mill table and moving the two back and forth is pretty easy.  Of course this supposes that lifting 80 lbs. is not an issue for you.  If you had to pick it up off the floor each time that might be different!


If I had the floor space I would do the same


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## yota (Oct 25, 2021)

so I spent hours today trying to make the eccentric cut on the end of a pc of round stock to make a new table lock shaft to replace the broken one.  failure sucks LOL.  remember I'm a complete noob to this stuff.

so I came up with plan B.  cut, drilled and tapped the broken shaft in the lathe keeping the factory eccentric cut.  turned down a 1/2" bolt and threaded the end.  put them together with high strength locktite, leaving a gap.  tomorrow will weld around the gap and turn off the excess weld in the lathe.

funny thing is Phase II has replacements in stock for forty some buck plus shipping but what fun is that.  I am learning.  making mistakes is how I learn.


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## yota (Oct 25, 2021)

funny thing.  I had bought a few 12" round bars of steel. 1/2", 3/4" etc diameters.  like 4 or 5 bars.  hadn't used any until today.  tried to make the shaft for the table lock out of the 1/2" pc.  cut like putty.  tried, several different turning tools, tried every freaking rpm speed, tried different feed rates.  was freaking out as I haven't had a problem getting a reasonably decent finish before (not that I've cut all that much).  was leaving ridges like a fine rasp.

after a long time and much trial and error I put several different pcs of steel and aluminum in the lathe and they all cut fine.  it was the type of steel!  had no idea.  ended up using a 1/2" zinc plated bolt and it cut fine.   anyone else run into this?


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## woodchucker (Oct 25, 2021)

mild steel? too fast a feed rate?  Too sharp a point on the insert? 


Try slowing down the feed rate, and upping the RPM.
use an insert with a bigger radius.
rough with what you got, and finish with a rounded HSS finishing tool.


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## yota (Oct 25, 2021)

tried several carbides with different radius' and HSS.  tried all the RPM's except back gears and tried varying feed rates.  dunno.


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## jwmelvin (Oct 25, 2021)

Yup, mild steel often seems pretty unwilling to leave a good finish. Harder (or free machining) steels are much better. A file and some scotchbrite helps.


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## yota (Oct 25, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> mild steel? too fast a feed rate?  Too sharp a point on the insert?
> 
> 
> Try slowing down the feed rate, and upping the RPM.
> ...


good suggestions.  need to get a finishing tool.  I guess it would be pretty easy to grind one out of HSS


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## rock_breaker (Oct 26, 2021)

My solution for "to heavy for an old man" is a 1000 pound crane from Northern Tool ( no affiliation) supported by 2 ceiling joists. Ultimately I would like a 4 foot long swinging beam that would let me service 3 machines in my shop.
Have a good day
Ray


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## yota (Oct 28, 2021)

finally had time this afternoon to finish this up.  kind of my 2nd project.  made good use of bolts for this project.


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## yota (Oct 28, 2021)

used 1/4" staniless steel bolts for the thumb handles.


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## yota (Oct 28, 2021)




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## yota (Oct 28, 2021)

table locks work great, everything working smoothly.  filled the oil reservoir with light hydraulic oil.  sanded the light rust on the table and gave it a couple of coats of wax.


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## yota (Oct 28, 2021)

I'm thinking someone had to have crashed this on their mill to break these off.


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## Just for fun (Oct 28, 2021)

Good job Yota!


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## yota (Oct 28, 2021)

Just for fun said:


> Good job Yota!


thank you Tim.


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## AGCB97 (Oct 29, 2021)

yota said:


> ...  filled the oil reservoir with light hydraulic oil...


I don't understand what you mean by this. What oil reservoir? I also have a phase II 10".
Thanks
Aaron


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## yota (Oct 29, 2021)

there is a base cavity that I believe bathes the worm gear.  you fill it up until oil shows in the sight glass.  see pg 2 of owners manual link, highlighted in yellow.       https://docs.travers.com/assets/pdf/65-220-006_manual.pdf


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## AGCB97 (Oct 29, 2021)

Upon a closer look, mine is not a Phase II. The 1st one I got was damaged in shipping and I had it apart to determine the extent. It was lubed with grease. I repaired the damage and sold it for 1/2 price. Company sent me a new one and told me not to return the 1st.
Aaron


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## Janderso (Oct 29, 2021)

yota said:


> good suggestions.  need to get a finishing tool.  I guess it would be pretty easy to grind one out of HSS


12L14 makes machining easy.
It’s 170 on the machinability scale. Hot rolled steel is under 100.


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## axa88 (Nov 8, 2021)

Yota, keep these question comming, im just about in the same boat you are, aquired the same machines, and with the same needs and questions... its creepy!

Not a rotary table, but i always wondered how bad or good these import dividing heads were:








						401.65US $ |Vevor Bs-0 Bs-1 Precision Indexing Dividing Head With 4inch 5inch 6inch 3-jaw Chuck, Dividing Plate And Tailstock Rotary Indexer - Chuck - AliExpress
					

Smarter Shopping, Better Living!  Aliexpress.com




					www.aliexpress.com
				




Sorry to hijack the thread


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## Dabbler (Nov 8, 2021)

@axa88 the link appears dead;  could you describe it better or provide another link?  I have 2 dividing heads and 3 rotary tables, so I might be able to help.


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## axa88 (Nov 8, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @axa88 the link appears dead;  could you describe it better or provide another link?  I have 2 dividing heads and 3 rotary tables, so I might be able to help.


Sorry. link fixed. thanks for the attention


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## Dabbler (Nov 9, 2021)

This is exactly like a clone of the B&S #0 dividing head and tailstock.  Even with 'lower quality' workmanship and laterials, you can do a lot with a dividing head like that.  I use mine a lot.


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## axa88 (Nov 9, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> This is exactly like a clone of the B&S #0 dividing head and tailstock.  Even with 'lower quality' workmanship and laterials, you can do a lot with a dividing head like that.  I use mine a lot.


I was hoping someone would say something like that.  Its not going to be on the top of my list but I've always wanted to be able to afford that kind of tolling.


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