# My New 8x18



## wrmiller (Jul 11, 2013)

Got it this afternoon. I was a little worried about getting it up on the bench myself, as it weights 270lbs, but I managed.

Very little packing grease on it, so it cleaned up quick. I am quite happy with the fit and finish on this thing. To compare this to my little 7x16 wouldn't be fair. They aren't even in the same league.

I have to stop at the auto parts store tomorrow after work and get some grease and a gun so I can fire this thing up this weekend. 

Edit: sorry about that. Apparently you can't just drag-and-drop an image. I'll see if i can figure this out...


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## Ben (Jul 11, 2013)

Wow, that is a pretty lathe!! I would love to see some video on it if you have the time to take some when you are taking some cuts.


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## dennis98277 (Jul 12, 2013)

That is so nice congrats man on the new toy


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## itsme_Bernie (Jul 12, 2013)

Beauty!  That's the first new SB I have seen!  Looks really nicely finished.  And a D1 spindle!  That's a fantastic feature.  I also didn't know it had hardened ways...  How is the speed shifting control?



Bernie


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## wrmiller (Jul 12, 2013)

Bernie,

Not sure what you mean by speed shifting? The lathe has two variable speed ranges: 50-250 and 250-2300. You shift ranges by changing a belt.

The bed on this thing is massive for a 8" swing lathe: 6" wide, with very heavy webbing underneath. The bed is a traditional South Bend '3-v' that has been hardened and ground.

I've been told that these lathes are built to SB specs by a Taiwan tool room lathe manufacturer. I don't have it in front of me, but the calibration/alignment booklet I received with the lathe showed 0.03mm in 500mm for headstock parallel to ways. What is that, 1 thou in 20"?

 For a 'hobby' lathe that is plenty good enough for me.


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## itsme_Bernie (Jul 12, 2013)

I am so glad to hear that.  And I am glad it is from Taiwan.  It really sounds like they are making it to spec.  South Bend was purchased a number of times over the years, so it shouldn't shock people quite as much that it is made elsewhere now.

I was asking about the speed control, knob or lever I guess.  I didn't know the arrangement, as the site only says "convenient variable speed" control.  It is really good that there is a two-step-belt setting, because you would really not get usable low speeds otherwise.
Nice t-slot crosslide, which I think all old SB's like mine are missing (unlike British lathes), and they even have the nice handles!  

I bet the carriage feeds are nice and quiet with the belt drive!  


Bernie


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## Ray C (Jul 12, 2013)

That's a really spiffy looking lathe.  I bet its fun to use...

Say, would you mind telling what brand of magnifying lens that is?  I could use one of those for each eyeball...


Ray


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## wrmiller (Jul 12, 2013)

I did not want to offend any of the guys in the South Bend forum for posting pics of a 'Asian' lathe there, so I did it here. I see nothing to be ashamed of quality-wise though. My friend with the 9" SB keeps telling me that he'll "take it off my hands" if I don't want it. 

The t-sloted crosslide is one of the features I liked about this lathe. I get to move the compound around based on the size work I'm doing without having to move the crosslide too far and causing rigidity issues. And with only 50 rpm bottom end speed wise, if I have to thread to a shoulder I can just reverse the leadscrew and move the compound to the other side. Great for old reflexes... The only 'complaint' I have is that I wish they had put a 5" chuck on it instead of the 4", because now my spindle bore is larger than the chuck's bore. I didn't realize this would be a problem. Oh well, chalk it up to being a newbie.

Anyone want a 4" Bison plain back chuck? I find that I need to buy a bigger model...  

I don't even see where I will have to 'mod' the lathe to do useful work. There are always enhancements though. Eventually, I will convert it to a e-leadscrew so I can do any thread or pitch without having to change belts.

Ray, if you're serious I can check on the magnifier tonight.


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## Ray C (Jul 12, 2013)

Rule #1. Nobody is forbidden for liking/owning any kind of lathe or equipment here. Old US Iron, Chinese, Taiwan... It's all fair game here. "Hobby-Machinist"... We use what we can get our hands on. If it's old and worn, people here will help you get it back on it's feet again. If it's new and has some imperfections, we help with that too...

The magnifier... Yes, I was serious but, I found it online. No need to trouble yourself. That looks to have a nice size lens on it. I have one with a smaller lens and need another for the shop.

Side Note: I am very, very annoyed because I found one distributor that caters to Medicare patients. They are selling that magnifier for over 450 bucks. Same thing online at different places is running $150-170. When I see abuses like that, I have visions of someone being beaten well past their point of begging for lenience.

Ray


EDIT:  If you're serious about getting a 5" Bison, please call Matt using this contact info http://machinetoolonline.com/ and tell him the gang from Hobby-Machinist sent you.  Matt is a great guy and he's a top tier Bison distributor.  -Don't mention my name or, he'll charge you double (just kidding...  he and I are Internet friends).





wrmiller19 said:


> I did not want to offend any of the guys in the South Bend forum for posting pics of a 'Asian' lathe there, so I did it here. I see nothing to be ashamed of quality-wise though. My friend with the 9" SB keeps telling me that he'll "take it off my hands" if I don't want it.
> 
> The t-sloted crosslide is one of the features I liked about this lathe. I get to move the compound around based on the size work I'm doing without having to move the crosslide too far and causing rigidity issues. And with only 50 rpm bottom end speed wise, if I have to thread to a shoulder I can just reverse the leadscrew and move the compound to the other side. Great for old reflexes... The only 'complaint' I have is that I wish they had put a 5" chuck on it instead of the 4", because now my spindle bore is larger than the chuck's bore. I didn't realize this would be a problem. Oh well, chalk it up to being a newbie.
> 
> ...


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## itsme_Bernie (Jul 12, 2013)

wrmiller19 said:


> "I did not want to offend any of the guys in the South Bend forum for posting pics of a 'Asian' lathe there, so I did it here. I see nothing to be ashamed of quality-wise though. My friend with the 9" SB keeps telling me that he'll "take it off my hands" if I don't want it. "
> .
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ray C (Jul 12, 2013)

This thread has been properly moved to the SB section.

Ray


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## george wilson (Jul 12, 2013)

For those who might not know,some of the South Bend models were already made in Taiwan before the original company closed. Lathes like the "Turnado",I believe were made for SB in Taiwan.


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## wrmiller (Jul 12, 2013)

Well, just did the run-in on it and it appears fine. It was a little warm after running continuously for over an hour (last 20 min was at 2300 rpm) but runs real smooth. Belt drive is pretty quiet. Nice.

Tomorrow I'll try making some test cuts and see how it does.


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## Ray C (Jul 12, 2013)

Good luck.  Don't be surprised if the first cuts aren't quite what you hoped for.  Running a new machine always has some learning curve.  Also, every machine needs to be aligned -which does not necessarily equate to being level to horizontal and vertical.  Usually, you'll use that as a starting point and there are various techniques to systematically shim the base and get it to cut dead-on.  Plenty here written about lathe alignment but, going over it again is always OK because there's always a new round of fresh folks coming on board.


Ray


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## genec (Jul 12, 2013)

congrats enjoy:tiphat:


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## woodtickgreg (Jul 13, 2013)

That's a great looking lathe, congratulations. It's always fun getting a new tool.


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## Bill Gruby (Jul 13, 2013)

Congratulations. Good looking piece of machinery. Have fun making chips with it. We like pictures of projects.

 "Billy G"


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## Richard King (Jul 13, 2013)

This morning after reading about your South Bend Taiwan built machine I wrote a little history and posted in the rebuilding forum.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/16528-A-bit-of-History-of-Taiwan-built-machines


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## wrmiller (Jul 14, 2013)

OK, so just as a quick-and-dirty, I tried a couple of cuts yesterday.

The first, was on a .5" piece of stainless. Put in in the three-jaw, center-drilled the end and put that on a live center. I took a .015" cut for almost 5". I started about 2" from the live center. I noticed that near the live center, I was getting small(er) chips, and as I got within a couple of inches of the 3-jaw I started getting this long, golden colored chip that had the cutting fluid smoking a bit. Pulled the rod out and did a quick measurement with my calipers. There was just over a thou difference between the measurements (I measured about 3" from the live center end, and right near the chuck). Not bad at all. I figured from watching the chips that I was getting some part deflection.

Next was a piece of 6061, 5/8ths thick. Did a .025" cut for about 3" on the unsupported rod. Bright shiny cut that had this long chip wrap itself around the rod near the chuck. Have to watch that stuff, as I figure it can probably slice me up pretty good if I'm stupid enough to get my hands near it. After pulling the aluminum Brillo pad off the part, I pulled the rod out and measured it like I did the other. Less than a thou difference.

Good enough for now. I'm pretty happy so far.


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## itsme_Bernie (Jul 14, 2013)

Good for you!  Be sure to check your tailstock alignment before future tests, since this is a new machine- it may be set over 


Bernie


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## Ray C (Jul 14, 2013)

Glad to hear things went well.

Yes, when you start a cut in the middle of a shaft, it does not dig-in right away and will gradually get deeper as the cut progresses.  Normally for a simple cut, I start at the very end of the shaft by the TS so the bit digs in right away upon hitting the material.  If you must start in the middle, it's common practice to use a groover and dig a starting point.

Were you using carbide or HSS-type cutting bits?

Watch out for swarf... overcome the urge to touch it or get near it when the machine is in motion -and that means wait till a dead stop.  Many cut tendons (and worse) from machines smaller than yours.

Ray





wrmiller19 said:


> OK, so just as a quick-and-dirty, I tried a couple of cuts yesterday.
> 
> The first, was on a .5" piece of stainless. Put in in the three-jaw, center-drilled the end and put that on a live center. I took a .015" cut for almost 5". I started about 2" from the live center. I noticed that near the live center, I was getting small(er) chips, and as I got within a couple of inches of the 3-jaw I started getting this long, golden colored chip that had the cutting fluid smoking a bit. Pulled the rod out and did a quick measurement with my calipers. There was just over a thou difference between the measurements (I measured about 3" from the live center end, and right near the chuck). Not bad at all. I figured from watching the chips that I was getting some part deflection.
> 
> ...


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## wrmiller (Jul 14, 2013)

Ray C said:


> Glad to hear things went well.
> 
> Yes, when you start a cut in the middle of a shaft, it does not dig-in right away and will gradually get deeper as the cut progresses.  Normally for a simple cut, I start at the very end of the shaft by the TS so the bit digs in right away upon hitting the material.  If you must start in the middle, it's common practice to use a groover and dig a starting point.
> 
> ...



Ah...thanks for the tip on the groover. I'm no machinist, I just like playing with their machines.  

The only lathe tooling I have is a little 3/8 set with indexable carbide inserts. They didn't work too well on the smaller lathe, but seem to do much better on this one. 1.5hp and better rigidity probably make a difference. When I get some 1/2" tooling I will try larger cuts. My little 0XA tool post is getting replaced with a AXA I ordered today. I don't like having the tool holder all the way at the top of the tool post.

I found my Inspection Report, and here's how my lathe tested out:

Geometrical Accuracy

Longitudinal Straightness of Bed: 0.03mm/500mm
Spindle Center Runout: 0.01mm
Spindle Shoulder Runout: 0.03mm
Spindle Bore Runout: 0.01mm
Spindle Taper Runout at Spindle Face: 0.01mm
Spindle Taper Runout at 100mm from Spindle Face: 0.02mm
Transverse Parallelism Between Spindle Centerline & Carriage Movement: 0.02mm/100mm (Only Up)
Longitudinal Parallelism Between Spindle Centerline & Carriage Movement: 0.02mm/100mm (Only Forward)
Transverse Parallelism Between Tailstock Centerline & Carriage Movement: 0.02mm/100mm (Only Up)
Longitudinal Parallelism Between Tailstock Centerline & Carriage Movement: 0.02mm/100mm (Only Forward)
Difference Between Spindle & Tailstock Centerlines: 0.03mm (Only High at Tailstock)
Perpendicularity of Cross Slide & Carriage Movement: 0.04mm/100mm (a > 90 degrees)
Longitudinal Straightness of Carriage Movement: 0.03mm/500mm
Axial Slip of Leadscrew: 0.01mm

Operational Accuracy

Accuracy of Outside Turning: 0.02mm
Accuracy of Cylindrical Turning: 0.04mm

I understand some of these, some I don't. All measurements were within recommended standards.

If these measurements are real, and based on my initial experiments, should I bother with the tailstock? Other than turning a long piece between centers, The only method I know is to put the dead centers in both the spindle and tailstock and pinch a small piece of flat steel in between and look for a vertical orientation of the piece of steel?  

Bill
P.S. Maybe someone who is REAL bored can explain those measurements?


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## Bill Gruby (Jul 14, 2013)

If you are that close you are good to go my friend. Those are not bad for an out of the crate machine.

 "Billy G"


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## Ray C (Jul 15, 2013)

Some thoughts...

An AXA on your machine will be ideal and most likely, 3/8" tool holders will serve 99.999% of your needs.  Of course, it's up to you but when you get 1/2" tooling, you might need to get multiple sizes of the same style inserts -and after a while, you might get annoyed with the extra cost and keeping track of them.  Also, 3/8" tooling is more than capable of pushing your lathe to it's limits.  The only time you might really need 1/2" holders if you need to make a cut that's difficult to reach and you need to extend the bit pretty far.  The beefiness of the 1/2" will allow further extension.

Tailstock use:  Just about any time you have a shaft where the length exceeds (roughly) 3 times the diameter, you should use a live or dead center in the TS.  This of course is a guideline and some folks will say 2 times and others say 4 times...  The point is, unsupported shafts bend due to the cutting pressure -especially with carbide and the diameter will end-up greater at the unsupported end because the work piece gets pushed away from the bit. As the cut gets closer to the chuck, the piece is unable to bend as much and the bit digs in deeper.  Your pieces will end-up as tapers.  Also, supporting at the TS will put an end to any kind of vibration or chatter which will happen almost certainly on anything longer that 4-5 times the diameter.

Im not sure what you mean in the last sentence about pinching a piece of flat steel.  I might need to see a picture of what you're doing there...

A few words about alignment and your specs.... Many of those specs might not be valid until you align the machine.  Also, I don't know if those specs were produced when the machine was mounted on a perfectly flat table or not.  In any event, once a machine is lifted, crated and jostled across a couple continents, some of those specs might not be valid until you adjust your bench for alignment.

Please look-up and search this site for "2 collar method" and "Rollie Method".  Those two techniques will describe what's going on.  It might take a while to comprehend the concepts so, please read it until you feel you understand it before tweaking your machine and bench.  You can always ask questions here.  Like Bill G said, you're good to go and there's no real harm done in using the machine as-is and learning to do basic things before you get into alignment. Other folks might disagree and would advise to align first so, please don't think I'm a quack... Everyone has their preferred methods and it all comes out in the wash at the end of the day.  It's all good.  BTW:  I'd  really recommend sticking to mild steel or aluminum until you get the swing of things.  Stainless is one of the trickier metals to work with.  It's tough as nails and fights back.  It's not a hard material at all -just very tough.  It wears-out carbide in no time flat if you do things wrong.  -Beware, SS swarf comes off hot and sharp as a razor... 

I do believe I understand and comprehend most of the specs but there are other folks here more qualified to speak about it.  Only in the absence of a response from them will I chime-in on that.


Ray





wrmiller19 said:


> Ah...thanks for the tip on the groover. I'm no machinist, I just like playing with their machines.
> 
> The only lathe tooling I have is a little 3/8 set with indexable carbide inserts. They didn't work too well on the smaller lathe, but seem to do much better on this one. 1.5hp and better rigidity probably make a difference. When I get some 1/2" tooling I will try larger cuts. My little 0XA tool post is getting replaced with a AXA I ordered today. I don't like having the tool holder all the way at the top of the tool post.
> 
> ...


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## george wilson (Jul 15, 2013)

I wonder why they ask $350.00 for the steady rest for the 8x18,when the steady for the 10" lathe is half that? It is unfortunate that the South Bend lathes(at least the bench models) come without the steady and follower rests. Most lathes come with 2 chucks,faceplate,steady and follower rest,a tool post,tool box with tools and the extra gears for metric threading.


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## ScrapMetal (Jul 16, 2013)

george wilson said:


> I wonder why they ask $350.00 for the steady rest for the 8x18,when the steady for the 10" lathe is half that? It is unfortunate that the South Bend lathes(at least the bench models) come without the steady and follower rests. Most lathes come with 2 chucks,faceplate,steady and follower rest,a tool post,tool box with tools and the extra gears for metric threading.



I figure they are probably trying to keep the price on these comparable to "similar" lathes just for marketing purposes.  A lot of people wouldn't look to see what extras came with it and would be most concerned with the price, so they can probably get by doing it that way.  The guys on this forum are just more aware of the tooling extras costs than your average bear.

Price on the 8" steady may be a production issue.  Some factory is set up to turn out the 10"s by the thousands but a special run has to be done for the 8s.

All just speculation though,

-Ron


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## george wilson (Jul 16, 2013)

I still haven't seen anyone mention that they have a 10" on all the forums I go to. They want so much for anything with the SB name on it.


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## wrmiller (Jul 16, 2013)

Only once have I ever had the need for a four-jaw. The steady would fall in the category of 'nice to have', as I'm sure I'd find a use for it somewhere. But as someone else mentioned, this would have probably driven the cost up? Just speculation on my part.

I looked at (and drooled over) the SB 10k but I didn't want/need something that large/heavy. I really do work on small(er) stuff and my ability to move it around myself is a big factor in the decision process. The smaller spindle through hole and (much) higher price pretty much killed it for me.

I wouldn't have paid the 3k plus price for mine either. The reduced price brought it just within the range I was willing to deal with, albeit grudgingly. 

Now if someone had offered a restored 9" for that 3k price I would have had to seriously consider it...


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## george wilson (Jul 17, 2013)

Several years ago,a machine dealer had 2 really nice heavy 10's mounted on cabinets w/underneath drive. Both had the taper attachment,hardened beds and as D type spindle and larger bore. One was fully equipped with 3 and 4 jaw chucks,steady rest,follower rest,faceplate,and other things. The bare lathe was $2000.00 the fully equipped one was $2500.00. Someone came in and bought the bare one!! I just had no space in my old shop,and wish I had bought the equipped one. I really didn't need another lathe as I have a Hardinge HLVH and a 16 x40" larger lathe. I just think the original SB lathes are nicely designed,with contoured castings that flow around their internal parts and artistic tail stocks. Had I known in a few years I'd be moving and building a larger shop,I would have jumped on it. The lathes were nearly new,especially with hardened beds and D style spindles. I'm still regretting I didn't get the good one. I had the money in my pocket. I like the extended range of threads that the SB lathes will cut. They go down to 224 TPI. and up to 8 TPI. My HLVH goes much less range than that. It has been an adequate range,but I like to be prepared for whatever comes along.


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## Ulma Doctor (Jul 18, 2013)

Sweet machine, i'm sure you will have hours and hours of fun there!!
good luck and best wishes!!
mike)


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## wrmiller (Aug 4, 2013)

Got my new 5" BTC set true chuck on the lathe and was playing with it a bit after getting it set up.

You can see in one of the following pics where I have a bar of stainless that I just took a 10 thou cut @ 1000 rpm on. The chips were golden/copper colored. I remember my machinist friend telling me that carbide likes to run hot and fast. Was I running a little too fast?

There were also minor marks in the stainless. More visual than anything, but I could feel them with a fingernail. I did have some cutting fluid on there, but it was what I could get on with a brush. Kissed the rod with some 600 grit and the marks disappeared.

The other picture is where I took the bar out and measured across the 3.5" cut to see what difference I had at each end. Curious as I was cutting out by the live center.

I couldn't see any difference with my old eyes and a caliper, so I grabbed a micrometer. One end (I don't remember which) was 0.9811 and the other was 0.9813.

OK, so now I'm really impressed with my little machine, as I have done nothing in the way of setup or alignment to this thing other than to use my iPhone app to level it to within 0.1 degree (the lathe is sitting on a solid wood door the previous owner of my house set up as a bench).

This after taking a 60 thou cut on the end to see if it would slow the motor down. RPM dropped by one when the cut started. Now THAT was a hot cut!  :yikes:

NOTE: I don't normally get that aggressive, and probably won't again.

Maybe I'm easily impressed, or not, but this thing ain't bad for a little guy.


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## drs23 (Aug 4, 2013)

.002 difference. Fantastic! Great looking machine.


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## wrmiller (Aug 4, 2013)

Actually, it's .0002 difference. I had to look several times to believe it, and probably measured a half dozen times or more.


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## Ray C (Aug 4, 2013)

Stainless is interesting stuff.  It takes a little getting used to but it always looks so nice...

On my machine, 15 thou is a good DoC that's productive and doesn't wear out the carbide too fast.  If you consistently take cuts at/above 20 thou, it wears the carbide very quickly.  When you get those white lines in the cut, it's a sign usually of too high RPMs and/or a worn insert.  Oil won't really help get rid of those.  Pay close attention to proper/suggested SFMs with stainless.  There' not a lot of margin.  

Ray


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## wrmiller (Aug 4, 2013)

Hey Ray!

OK, probably both a dull carbide insert AND too high a RPM. Especially after that 60 thou cut.

So where can I get a chart that lists SFM or speeds and feeds for various metals? This would be a really big help.


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## Ray C (Aug 4, 2013)

Here you go...   http://www.southbaymachine.com/setups/cuttingspeeds.htm

A 60 thou cut will put an instant end to a TNMG 21x; especially uncoated like yours.  Also, shop around for some TiN or TiALN coated if you're going to do a lot of stainless.  On a 2.5" diameter piece, you'll be able to cut about (roughly) 10 linear feet of stock if you keep your cuts around 15 thou DoC or less.  Rapid degradation as you increase DoC beyond that.  Good finish cuts happen around 8-10 thou.  A round nose like a 322 is helpful with those finish cuts and a 321 is better for faster removal.  KoolMist works wonders to keep the workpiece very cool and make the carbide last much longer.  Holding tolerance with SS is tricky  when it warms-up.  It heats very thoroughly, holds the heat and has a fairly high coefficient of expansion.


Ray





wrmiller19 said:


> Hey Ray!
> 
> OK, probably both a dull carbide insert AND too high a RPM. Especially after that 60 thou cut.
> 
> So where can I get a chart that lists SFM or speeds and feeds for various metals? This would be a really big help.


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## raross61 (Aug 5, 2013)

Ray C said:


> Rule #1. Nobody is forbidden for liking/owning any kind of lathe or equipment here. Old US Iron, Chinese, Taiwan... It's all fair game here. "Hobby-Machinist"... We use what we can get our hands on. If it's old and worn, people here will help you get it back on it's feet again. If it's new and has some imperfections, we help with that too...
> 
> The magnifier... Yes, I was serious but, I found it online. No need to trouble yourself. That looks to have a nice size lens on it. I have one with a smaller lens and need another for the shop.
> 
> ...




Ray,

    Can you tell us where you found the magnifier at? I also am interested in it? Its always a pretty broad search on google for this type of thing!

                                                      Thanks Bob in Oregon


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## wrmiller (Aug 5, 2013)

Thank you for the link. Good stuff.

Carbide inserts are something else I have to learn. And quickly if I'm going to do much work in stainless. I don't even know what TNMG stands for, so I guess I had better get busy. Thanks for the suggestions: I assume you can get a 322 Tin TNMG?

Thanks again for everything.  




Ray C said:


> Here you go...   http://www.southbaymachine.com/setups/cuttingspeeds.htm
> 
> A 60 thou cut will put an instant end to a TNMG 21x; especially uncoated like yours.  Also, shop around for some TiN or TiALN coated if you're going to do a lot of stainless.  On a 2.5" diameter piece, you'll be able to cut about (roughly) 10 linear feet of stock if you keep your cuts around 15 thou DoC or less.  Rapid degradation as you increase DoC beyond that.  Good finish cuts happen around 8-10 thou.  A round nose like a 322 is helpful with those finish cuts and a 321 is better for faster removal.  KoolMist works wonders to keep the workpiece very cool and make the carbide last much longer.  Holding tolerance with SS is tricky  when it warms-up.  It heats very thoroughly, holds the heat and has a fairly high coefficient of expansion.
> 
> ...


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## Ray C (Aug 5, 2013)

Here's the gold standard of information about carbide terminology:  http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm

I just happen to notice the insert and tool holder you showed in the picture.  If that is a 1/2" tool it's almost certainly a TNMG (see the link above) 322 or 321.  The numbers are all explained in the link.  If it's a 3/8 holder, it's most likey a 221 or 222.  You'll need to look-up info that came with your tool holder to know exactly what size to get.  -Most likely will be a 22x or 32x.  The first digit is the most important and determines if it will fit in the holder or not.  


Ray


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## george wilson (Aug 5, 2013)

I'd like to see how deep a cut you can take using cold rolled mild steel and a sharp HSS cutter. I don't use stainless unless I have to on the kinds of things I like to make.

P.S.: brown chips are fine for carbide.


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## wrmiller (Aug 5, 2013)

I need to order some steel round stock, probably from Online Metals. My friend recommended 10L18 as a good 'free machining' steel that is easy on the machine and cutters, and decent stock for most of my tinkering.

Are you talking more like 4130 or 4140? I am needing some of that too.

I don't have as much experience with HSS bits, but I did buy some pre-ground cheapies recently (see pic). I was taking a 10-15 thou cut on that stainless bar with one and it produced a very nice cut. Was afraid to take it any further on that stainless.

What do you consider a decent DoC on mild steel?





george wilson said:


> I'd like to see how deep a cut you can take using cold rolled mild steel and a sharp HSS cutter. I don't use stainless unless I have to on the kinds of things I like to make.
> 
> P.S.: brown chips are fine for carbide.


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## Ray C (Aug 5, 2013)

Sure, 1018 and the leaded (L) version are fine.  -Can't weld the L-version so, keep that in mind.  Actually, it will weld just fine...  And the lead will go right in your lungs.  You'll get a year's regular dose of lead in about 3 breaths.

My go-to metal is 1045 and I always keep a supply on hand.  Eveyone has different preferences but, I find 1045 easier to work with than 1018.   I find 1018 to be gummy and 1045 to be a bit more crisp and clean provided you work with it "decisively" -if that makes any sense...  In other words, don't *****-foot around with 1045.  It's very predictable.  Treat it with authority and it behaves predictably.   It think it's much more versatile than 10xx.

As for 414x... It's very similar to but better than 1045 provided it's fully annealed.  I love working with 4140 best of all the ferrous metals.  I've got about 400 lbs being delivered just to have around.   It's a little cleaner than working with 1045 or 1018.  4140 is probably the strongest thing out there in it's price class once it is heat treated.  It's about as close to working with tool steel as you'll get.  My favorite tool steel is O1.   It is a lot like 1095 but a little less "chalky"

...

As for HSS cutting depths... in low/mid carbon steel, HSS will certainly cut deeper than carbide.  Since you have something like a 1.5 or 2 HP motor, there's no problem there.  Your machine is obviously pretty rigid as, it would have buckled with a 60 thou cut in SS...  I got a feeling George is eyeing your lathe...


Ray




wrmiller19 said:


> I need to order some steel round stock, probably from Online Metals. My friend recommended 10L18 as a good 'free machining' steel that is easy on the machine and cutters, and decent stock for most of my tinkering.
> 
> Are you talking more like 4130 or 4140? I am needing some of that too.
> 
> ...


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## wrmiller (Aug 5, 2013)

Now that you mention it, my pistolsmith-turned-machineshop friend always liked 4140 for a lot of things. I've never tried tool steel like O1 or A1, but those could be useful too. We didn't do a lot of stainless, but I remember turning down/tapering a few stainless barrels. I occasionally make parts out of titanium, but that's another animal entirely.

Thanks again. You're quite the info repository.  

Yea, this little lathe is more robust than I though it would be. A quick change would have made it about perfect, but I'm already planning a ELS for it. I will be making some other minor upgrades to it to suit my tastes, but overall I am very pleased.

Had I tried a stunt like that on my 7x16 (I wouldn't have, I'm not quite THAT stupid), either the motor would have stalled or I would have had broken parts flying everywhere. Not trying to compare them of course, they're two different machines. Now I appreciate the extra 200 lb difference.

When I worked in my friends gun shop, we did most of the lathe work on his 14x40. But he had this little Craftsman 6" that was just perfect for making firing pins and other small stuff that needed a more gentle touch. I may not be getting rid of my little 7x16 just yet...


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## Ray C (Aug 5, 2013)

BTW, making stuff out of tool steel if you don't plan to heat treat it, is (in my opinion) a slight waste of resources.  In their annealed condition, they're all easy to work with but things really come to life when you heat treat them and grind to final size and finish.  A-type (air quenched) tools steels are not practical to self heat treat unless you have an oven that gets into the 2100 to 2200 degree range which is very difficult to achieve.  W-Type (water/brine quenched) require temps in the 1700-1900 range and O-type (oil quenched) require temps around 1600-1700 range which is manageable and do-able in home shop.  4140 is actually classified as a low-end tool steel and requires temps around 1550 which is easy to do with a decent electric furnace.  I only do stuff in the 1500 to 1700 range.  Air quenching is easy, water/brine requires a little more care and oil requires the most care and sometimes must be two-steps of first oil and optionally water/brine.  The upshot is that the ease of quenching comes at the cost of higher oven temperatures...  -Take your pick.

Most commonly, "blue-steel" firearms are made 4140 or 4150.  Stainless firearms are often 300-series but I'm not sure which types are most common.

...  ELS ???  Sorry, that's escaping me at the moment.  Could you explain?


Ray


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## wrmiller (Aug 5, 2013)

Electronic Lead Screw (ELS) Using a stepper motor to maintain a pitch/thread rate as a function of spindle RPM.

No more gear changes.


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## fastback (Aug 5, 2013)

Real nice looking lathe.  Sounds like it runs real nice too.  Just wanted to wish you luck.


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## Ray C (Aug 5, 2013)

Oops, sorry.  One of your questions got past me...  DoC on mild steel....   Low and medium carbon steel (such as xx18 thru xx50) on my lathe and probably yours too, has a good range of 10 to 35 thou -no problem and you'll find it hard to wear-out a carbide insert.    Going above 35 to 50 works very well too but, it wears the inserts a little faster.  For a finish cut, I like to set it up for 12 to 15 thou.  If you can go easy, do so... It's less wear/tear on the equipment. 

With high carbon (xx90, xx95) just decrease the above DoCs by about 10 or 15%.  This is probably true of most machines with a 1.5 to 2 HP motor and a 7" wide bed frame with 1/2" insert holders.  Beefier machines can take more off but you need to get into better quality and industrial-type inserts that go along with bigger insert holders.

FWIW, carbide is really bad at DoCs less than 10 thou.  -Just not enough pressure to make the carbide work properly.  Finally, I can tell the difference with carbon steel (10xx, 11xx) and alloys (41xx) but both are just as easy and manageable to work with in the annealed or HR/CR condition.  Don't be afraid of the alloys -there's just no need to worry.  I avoid working on anything above Rockwell 35 unless it's just a layer of case hardening.  Thoroughly hardened metals like 4140 are bear to work with.  Anything above 45 needs ceramic inserts.  I've used them but not enough to give any advice.

And finally, the high carbon steels and tool steels start to feel a lot like cast iron but less sandy/gritty.  I'm not all that fond of machining CI -dirty stuff and tough on tooling.  It's wonderful in the surface grinder though...

Ray


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## Ray C (Aug 7, 2013)

BTW: Here's a spacer part I just made for someone.  It's 1045 hot rolled and will be case hardened.  Just minutes before, I was cutting some 1018 and the 1045 cuts with the same feel but makes a much nicer finish.  That piece is right out of the lathe, no oil no coolant (too small to bother with) no polishing...   It's much easier to get a nice finish like that with 1045.  The moral of the story is don't be afraid to try different carbon steels.  I think people have a fear of trying them because they might be harder material and more difficult to work on.  -Not true at all so give it a shot and you'll see what I mean.  The tricky stuff is stainless so, practice on Aluminum, then do mid-carbon then stainless.  You'll get hooked on good quality metal and won't ever want to work on A36 again because it feels like bubble gum.

The piece is about 1.75 dia and was spun around 550 RPM.  Final DoC for the finish cut was 15 thou.  Diamond shape TiN carbide.  Feed was 0.004 IPR.





Ray


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