# Deciding on the right CNC for my home shop



## ElTejano (Feb 1, 2013)

Hello all, I am at a crossroads in my machining life here. I think time has come that I take the plunge and go the CNC route. I design and manufacture tools in my trade and I do fairly good but my capabilities are limited with what I am working with which is a small Grizzly lathe and a gear head HF mill drill. 

The Mill drill has taken some serious abuse through the years. Its about 7 or 8 years old and I am amazed it still runs. 

All this brings me here asking for help. I have looked and looked and pretty much narrowed my choices to the Tormach or a used Haas Minimill. I understand that the Haas is much larger and requires a lot more to set it up and the space requirements are substantial in comparison to the Tormach.

I am afraid I will outgrow the Tormach in no time when I go into full production, but when things crank up I can always upgrade.

My question is this, what kind of work load can the Tormach handle. Is it best suited for aluminum and lower operating hours? Is it wise to just put all my chips in and get the Haas? I dont want to outsource any of my work becaue I can just put all that money into the CNC.

Decisions, decisions.

Does anyone have experience with a Tormach and has experienced the limitations or benefits you have of it? I would be forever grateful with input on this.

Leo


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## DMS (Feb 1, 2013)

Take a look at John Grimsmo's page on Youtube. He is a custom knifemaker, and uses a Tormach to make most of his stuff. He cuts mostly Ti, and tool steel. The Tormachs seem like nice machines, though I don't have one personally. If it were me, and I had the money/space/power, I think I would go for the Haas, especially if I was considering running it as a business. Of course, you could probably purchase 2 Tormachs for the price of a Haas.


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## jumps4 (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm not sure what your building but you really dont require a heavy machine to do work with a cnc mill. it does not hog out metal in slow deep heavy load passes it works better and faster taking small cuts at high cutter speeds and feeds. it's faster and less wear and tear on the machine and the tooling.
I know nothing about a tormach but i have a zx45 converted to cnc that really handles steel very well. I would not concider it for production due to it probably will wear a lot faster than a name brand machine but the power and rigidity needed is there.
steve


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## ElTejano (Feb 2, 2013)

Thanks guys. I will definitely check out those videos and do more research and browse through more posts on here.

When I get the cnc, it will probably be running constantly. I am leaning towards the Tormach to start off and then but the Haas with the money the Tormach makes me. I sure would love to see a Tormach in action and inspect one myself. I really do not like buying something I didnt see in person and see it working myself.


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## Mid Day Machining (Feb 2, 2013)

I have had my PCNC 1100 since July 2011, and given the chance to do it over again, I would jump at the chance.

I have done a lot of work with my machine. I run it 40 to 70 hours per week, and it has never given me a minute of problem.

I have learned its limitations and I live within those parameters.

Here's a picture of what I have in my garage.


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## jumps4 (Feb 2, 2013)

I did a search for "tormach" in bing.com then clicked on videos on the top of the screen and there are 13,000 videos to watch.
steve


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## ElTejano (Feb 2, 2013)

Yes, I saw a ton of videos. But, just like a car or anything that will set me back at least 10 large, I want to check it out myself.  Maybe I can fly up to Wisconsin and visit their HQ. I travel a lot and a quick trip to WI would not be a big deal.


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## ElTejano (Feb 2, 2013)

Steve Seebold said:


> I have had my PCNC 1100 since July 2011, and given the chance to do it over again, I would jump at the chance.
> 
> I have done a lot of work with my machine. I run it 40 to 70 hours per week, and it has never given me a minute of problem.
> 
> ...



Sure looks nice. Do you have the power draw bar on yours?


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## dfwcnc (Feb 2, 2013)

I have a Tormach 770, and could have bought the 1100, but didn't care for the mass of size or space it took up.  I have a four car garage but had a place earmarked for the machine and the 1100 would have taken the entire space.  

Some considerations; Tormach states itself on their website (and you can call and speak with Rory in tech support if you like), that these machines are not meant for production.  They are serious hobby machines for prototyping and product creation.  And familiarizing you with SprutCam, Alibre and Mach3 gives you a great perspective on how products are designed, manufactured and perfected.  HOWEVER, once you have it down, turning over your "finished" idea to a real machine shop is the way to go.  They can bang out a product that takes your Tormach 5 minutes to do in 30 seconds.

I am not saying you cannot produce on the machine, I am stating it is not designed for large or medium scale production.  It is designed for small runs etc.  You can contact them regarding this point.  However, Tormach maintains a group of people willing to let you see the machine in action.  And if you are in my area, you are welcome to come over and see the machine's capabilities.  I love playing around with it, in manual mode and CNC mode.  

Tormach is a great machine for what it does, great.  However, if you are considering going into production on a product and have the cash or line of credit to pull down a serious machine, you should do just that.  However, capital spent on heavy equipment like this is difficult to amortize over a short period of time.  I do protyping for fun, and it is great therapy for me, given my real job these days.  However, I am realistic in my capabilities, and my machines abilities.  

Once I complete and master the product, I have the G-code and blueprints for the product design and creation. And more importantly, I know it works.  Reach out to me and I'll help where I can...

Cheers~


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## DMS (Feb 2, 2013)

One option to consider is taking one of Tormach's classes. They are usually at the Tormach HQ, but if you really want to lay hands on one before you buy, it may be worth it.

/http://www.tormach.com/workshops.html

Looks like all the recent workshops are full, next open one is in May.


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## ElTejano (Feb 2, 2013)

dfwcnc said:


> I have a Tormach 770, and could have bought the 1100, but didn't care for the mass of size or space it took up.  I have a four car garage but had a place earmarked for the machine and the 1100 would have taken the entire space.
> 
> Some considerations; Tormach states itself on their website (and you can call and speak with Rory in tech support if you like), that these machines are not meant for production.  They are serious hobby machines for prototyping and product creation.  And familiarizing you with SprutCam, Alibre and Mach3 gives you a great perspective on how products are designed, manufactured and perfected.  HOWEVER, once you have it down, turning over your "finished" idea to a real machine shop is the way to go.  They can bang out a product that takes your Tormach 5 minutes to do in 30 seconds.
> 
> ...



Great info. I have a fairly good idea of the machine's capabilities and understand it is not meant for production work. The parts I would be manufacturing would be mostly delrin, aluminum, the occasional 1018, and brass once in a while. The main reason I need it now is to manufacture a few small simple parts out of delrin that I can make on the manual mill, but is just too time consuming. I doubt what I will make with it will take too much of a toll on the machine. I have been watching videos of the guy that makes the knives, he is probably putting that mill through more abuse than I would.

I really dont like outsourcing stuff much unless I absolutely have to. I really enjoy doing everything myself, plus I can tweak anything I want as I go along. I am always coming up with something different and redesigning stuff. I figured that all the stuff I need prototyped and milled would cost me more to have it done than it would to just buy the Tormach, learn to use it and do it myself.

And as far as getting a return on this machine, it would be fairly quick. I have so much work for it lined up that I need to get started SOON. I will probably upgrade to the Haas next year and just have both. I just simply cannot keep up manually. Outsourcing is hard because I have a lot of R&D going on right and design changes are ongoing now so I NEED the CNC.

Thanks for the offer to come see your machine, dfwcnc, I might just take you up on it.



DMS said:


> One option to consider is taking one of Tormach's classes. They are usually at the Tormach HQ, but if you really want to lay hands on one before you buy, it may be worth it.
> 
> [URL/http://www.tormach.com/workshops.html[/URL]
> 
> Looks like all the recent workshops are full, next open one is in May.



I actually just saw after reading your suggestion and I think I am going to schedule something. I love taking classes of all kinds. Can never stop learning. 

The more and more I look into this, the more I think I am going with the Tormach.

Thanks for the heads up.


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## jumps4 (Feb 2, 2013)

I watched a bunch of them and i wasnt impressed and i looked for "tormach problem" also and rigidity was a complaint.
most everything i seen was doing aluminum. some of the videos showed it with the gaurds and bellows removed and it has the 1605 (about 5/8") screws and the same size dovetails as the zx45.
your a machinist you could build one like mine for yourself and when they wear out replace the entire mill and transfer the parts and electronics for less than $2000 new. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/8187-rung-fu-clone-RF-45-ZX45-cnc-conversion
my zx45 seems a lot more ridgid and handles steel better and has a larger work envelope mine is 32x-9.5y-18z and the head will tilt 90 degrees
after conversion my motors are more powerful and with the 4th axis I'm at only $4500 new including all shipping. with backlash compensation i can make .0002 moves changing directions, there is a video in my thread of it moving in .0001 moves changing direction
I cant see the extra $5500 for one myself when you could have 2 running for that price
just mho not intended to down play a tormach it's really nice for ready built including software and if I had not already built 5 cnc machines and knew how well they work i'd concider it as my first choice in that price range.
steve


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## ElTejano (Feb 2, 2013)

jumps4 said:


> I watched a bunch of them and i wasnt impressed and i looked for "tormach problem" also and rigidity was a complaint.
> most everything i seen was doing aluminum. some of the videos showed it with the gaurds and bellows removed and it has the 1605 (about 5/8") screws and the same size dovetails as the zx45.
> your a machinist you could build one like mine for yourself and when they wear out replace the entire mill and transfer the parts and electronics for less than $2000 new. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/8187-rung-fu-clone-RF-45-ZX45-cnc-conversion
> my zx45 seems a lot more ridgid and handles steel better and has a larger work envelope mine is 32x-9.5y-18z and the head will tilt 90 degrees
> ...




Well, this is another thing to consider for the future. I wish I had the technical know how about cnc machines. I would definitely just make one. Time is more of a concern to me right now. I need one within the next few months ready to go. The savings gained making my own CNC would not really offset the time lost with me figuring it all out. I will spend that time taking as many CNC courses as I can and getting hands on experience on a CNC. 

I will loom into this though, because I would like to try to build one in the future, maybe a few.

But I agree 100 percent with you, it is wise to go your route.


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## dfwcnc (Feb 3, 2013)

Tormach is made China, but with very good controls over the quality.  That said, the support Tormach provides is a 10.  I know the guys by first name when I call the support at Tormach.  They aren't engineers, they are passionate hobbiest that love making things, and do they know those machines.  I'm not trying to sell anyone on Tormach, but having one I want to be clear that it's not just the machine you own, you also own the learning curve, and any problems that may crop up with the machine.  They are all yours.  Tormach techs are the difference, and so is the tooling systems. 

I have had no problems with my machine at all for the year I have had it.  Sure I crashed it a couple of times and broken bits (tools), but I either messed up the GS code or unknowingly pushed the machine into the piece.  Here's the deal; these are fantastic machines for the money, no one can touch it for cost, support or available tooling systems that are PROVEN to work.  I can't tell you how much fun I've hand making stuff.  And depending on what you plan to make, Sherline machines have been CNC'd to bang out incredible work.  My point is this; when buying a machine for the first time, we all believe we need a Haas or something similar, when a much smaller machine would actually do the job for you easily.

Ask yourself; why do you need a big(ger) machine?  I look back at the parts I've made, and the ones I am making now, and plan to make in the future, and I can use my machine or even smaller.  You really need to open-up to someone in the know on a CNC machine and tell them what you plan to make.  Trust me, whatever you're making is either already being made, or can be knocked-off in a matter of days.  Anything one man can make, another can as well.  Ask the Chinese, 20% of their GDP comes from copying other people's stuff.  

I would like to suggest a "CA", also known as a confidentiallity agreement.  This would allow you to speak to someone who knows the machines really well, and learn about your product, and protect you from them taking your idea and making billions of dollars.  If they do, you get their money, house, wife and dog.  If your idea is that good, you better lawyer up now.  OR, go on-line and get a generic CA and customize it.  You may be surprised what you could get away with, machine-wise.  

Also, there are no laws in the country that prevent me from copying anything in existence, I just can't sell it.  So I make stuff all the time that I could buy, but I know I can make it better, higher quality, and perhaps with some improvements.  

Anyway, if you're looking at dropping over $10,000, it's worth running by a pro for sure.  And by the way, after all by tooling etc, I'm in at more than $10k on mine, and I don't have a ton of stuff.  This is an expensive hobby, make no mistake.  I compromised with the Mrs., I sold my Ferrari and shaved off some of the money for my machine.  I wasn't driving the car and the battery kept dying, not to mention the cost of owning the car etc ($500 oil changes, $7,000 clutch, etc).  I'm just saying, it's not a cheap endeavor.  But gosh the stuff you can make is limited only by your imagination.  

Keep us posted....


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## ElTejano (Feb 3, 2013)

I am going with the Tormach for now.

I went to a place I knew nothing about that opened a few miles from my house called Techshop. Cool place, you can get a monthly membership and have full access to mills, lathes and they actually have the Tormach there. I am going to pay for a month and play with the Tormach as much as possible. They also offer a lot of classes. I was told by one of the guys that works there that the guy that makes the ATC's for Tormach lives in my town and I am taking a class at 1 supposedly taught by him on CNC. 

I understand that the Chinese knock off everything and anything. I know people that design something and within a few months I see the knock off stuff on Ebay. Straight copies for a fraction of the cost all made cheaply with cheap parts. I do pretty well selling my products. I am fairly well known in my industry as a producer of good equipment. A lot of the more well known people in my industry use my stuff and people being the sheep they are will use what they are using. I have enough back orders as I stand now to pay for the Tormach in less than a month, maybe even less than a week.

I was looking into renting a space somwhere, getting the Haas and hiring a machinist but I just love the idea of learning CNC and doing it myself. I am actually enrolling my wife in every CNC and CAD course they offer for she would be manufacturing for me when I am out of town. I will be traveling over seas almost on a monthly basis all year round.

I cant wait to jump in head first into this new endeavor.


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## Kevin45 (Feb 15, 2013)

Depending on how much you are running, you could always look for a retrofitted Bridgeport that has been retro'ed with a ProtoTrak kit. We had (2) two axis BP's in our Toolroom and worked the hell out of them. We also had one Trak QuickCell, but Southwestern Industries quit making them. They were a noce compact 3 axis CNC but it had only a 14"x14" table travel. If you aren't making big parts though, the QuickCell was a nice little mill. I didn't know that Tormach was a lightweight. I knew it had small travel distance, especially in the "Y", so if you are going to run a mill hard and long, I'd steer away from it. I was also considering one for home. Haas would make a good mill if you can get it for the right price. The customer service from them is also good.


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## ElTejano (Feb 18, 2013)

I actually now might not go with the Tormach. I found out my cousin has recently bought a Haas Vf2 and said I can use it whenever. He was telling me that he would just teach me to use it and when its down I can run my stuff. He also has a Bridgeport CNC slightly larger than the Haas and a Mazak lathe so I guess I will use his stuff for now. He was also mentioning retiring soon so I could see about buying his Haas.

I guess I could always get the Haas to run prototypes in the garage and the Haas to do production runs. But for now, since I have full access to a Vf2, I will just go with this and invest the 10 grand into supplies and materials.


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## Mid Day Machining (Feb 19, 2013)

ElTejano said:


> Sure looks nice. Do you have the power draw bar on yours?



Yes I do have the PDB. I don't know how I'd get along without it.


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## cjsamples (Feb 19, 2013)

ElTejano said:


> I found out my cousin has recently bought a Haas Vf2 and said I can use it whenever.




Can I be his cousin too??? Being able ot use the Haas will certainly get you up and running and give you a better idea on what you might want/need down the road.

Chris


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## Syaminab (Feb 19, 2013)

Leo, I would go for the Haas, either a good used or take advantage of the great credit they give, now in my country they are at 36 months with 0 interest on new machines, and 20% down, 36 months at 7% interest on used and rebuilt.  I bet in your country there would be a lot better deals.
why, because they are serius production machines
I would buy Haas, if they would only put rexroth linear guides instead of the ball bearing guides, everything else is great. When choosing consider the memory, the speed to run programs, the lookahead, peripheals needed like a transformer, cable etc. Tooling needed. Communications and ports like ethernet, usb or old ways like rs-232. Etc


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## Mid Day Machining (Feb 20, 2013)

There's nothing that says you can't start with the Tormach PCNC 1100, and move up to a Haas later.

If you are doing tooling, rather than consider a Haas Mini, you might consider a Haas TM1 or TM2 Toolroom mill.

I had a TM1 in my shop, and it had 30 X 12 X 16 XYZ travels and I also had a 10 position tool changer and a 5C 4th axis. Rigid tapping too.

I had a heart attack in the shop in October 2007, and that's why I HAD a Haas TM1. After my heart attack, I decided I no longer needed the stress of ownership.

I have a Tormach PCNC 1100 in my garage now, and I run the hell out of it. I run it between 40 and 70 hours per week in my "HOBBY" business. I make and sell parts for remote control gasoline powered racing boats, cars, trucks and buggies. These "TOYS" use highly modified weed whacker engines and actually go pretty fast. The boats are 60+ MPH and the cars are in the low to mid 50's.


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## Smertrios (Feb 23, 2013)

Here are some links to lower cost VMC's that have tool changers. This first one can do tapping and both are around $22,000.

http://www.fadeceng.com/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fadec-UMC10...736?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c3e650a8

This next one is nice but needs 3 phase power and might not be capable of tapping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bolton-Tool...322?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7e0318ba

I started a thread at CNCZone about the Fadec machine you might want to take a look.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1240311

In anycase if you can use HAAS for free that is the best choice!


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