# No Gear Oil Reading in my Headstock



## erikmannie (Feb 6, 2021)

So I used my PM-1660TL  lathe today for about 9 hours. I was going to keep on going, but after a successful run at 620 RPM it started to make a funny noise when it was winding down.

I was shifting it in neutral to center my workpiece in my 4J chuck. That’s when I noticed this:







The reading for the oil level in the headstock is not even showing. Here is a closer shot of that:






So I shut it down for the night, and I will go get some hydraulic oil tomorrow. I just wonder where the oil went.

The future, I should adopt the practice of checking that sight glass every 15 minutes or so.

Does anybody have any idea where the oil may have gone? When I got the machine about 2 months ago, I drained the factory oil and properly added what I remember to be 2 gallons of the recommended hydraulic oil. It has been at the proper reading up until today.


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## erikmannie (Feb 6, 2021)

I took off the side cover, and I do see some oil down here as seen in the photo. I don’t think that would be my Mobilmet 766 CF because I don’t see how the CF could get in there.

Hopefully I can just add a gallon or two of the recommended hydraulic oil and be on my way. I will keep an eye on that sight glass. Maybe it is a leaky headstock.











I also see that some sort of oil has run off of this “shelf” down into the bottom of the casting. I’m really kicking myself for not keeping a closer eye on that sight glass.


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## erikmannie (Feb 6, 2021)

I took off the top so I can see very well what is going on inside. It is extremely beautiful in there!

I can see that the oil level is just below the site glass, and there appears to be most of the oil still in there.


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## erikmannie (Feb 6, 2021)

I recommend that everybody do this with their machine because it is really cool to see the gear shafts and gears shifting around when you switch gears.


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## erikmannie (Feb 6, 2021)

I think that I caught a break by hearing that one noise and stopping when I did. I am sure that when I add a half a gallon or so of oil then I will be fine. 

Now I have definitely learned to keep an eye on that sight glass and not assume that the oil that you put in there will stay in there.


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## markba633csi (Feb 7, 2021)

You must have a seal that's leaking somewhere- to me that looks like too fast of a loss
-Mark


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## erikmannie (Feb 7, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> You must have a seal that's leaking somewhere- to me that looks like too fast of a loss
> -Mark



It is definitely too fast of a loss. I will call or send an email to PM on this.


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## mksj (Feb 7, 2021)

Based on the location it looks like the drain plug might be leaking. I would clean up the oil and drain it, and refill to the site gauge and then run it for 30 minutes and inspect for an oil leak. Recheck that the drain plug is not leaking, after draining use some Teflon (yellow or blue) tape when inserting (do not over tighten). If the oil level seems to drain to a given level, when you popped the top off see what through hole in the headstock case that seems to line up with. You should have no oil leakage from the headstock, I have a similar lathe and after 2 years there has been no oil leakage.


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## Joeman77 (Feb 7, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> You must have a seal that's leaking somewhere- to me that looks like too fast of a loss
> -Mark


Nice machine, I wouldn't think anything that new would have that kind of troubles yet. Not to ask what might sound like a stupid question, but are you sure a drain plug isn't leaking?
 I only ask because I've been there, after tearing mine (different manufacturer but same idea) apart chasing oil leaks for years I found a secondary drain well hidden that wasn't mentioned in the documentation.


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## Winegrower (Feb 7, 2021)

mksj said:


> I have a similar lathe and after 2 years there has been no oil leakage.



Same here, I filled the Takisawa maybe a year ago, it's exactly the same level today.

Maybe this is not a popular viewpoint, but this is why I fear purchasing a new machine.   There can be any level of surprises lying in wait.   With a used unit, you can at least cross examine the current owner.   And also don't buy at auction.   Unless it's a REALLY good deal.


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## Reddinr (Feb 7, 2021)

The more pics of the PM-1660TL I see, the more I think that the G0509G must be a very close cousin.  The head stock gears look pretty close to the same.   I have a slow leak in the headstock but maybe a quarter inch over a couple of years.  I keep an eye on it.  

I had a sticking lead screw gearbox when I first got mine.  Was just a burr on a bronze positioning fork and easy to fix.  I took the transmission cover off.  Here is a picture.  Probably not too different than what is on yours.  The gear boxes are very nice.  I was impressed with the gear quality in both the headstock and the transmission.


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## erikmannie (Feb 7, 2021)

I went out on the town this morning to find the oil pictured below. It is ISO VG 32. I went to 3 different places, and I could only find ISO AW 32, which I gather is the same thing with some additives in it.

So I ordered what is in the picture below on Amazon, and when I came home I found that I did, in fact, have 2 quarts left over from my oil change. I added 1 quart which brought it up to the proper level.

When I did the oil change 2 or 3 months ago, I used white Teflon tape, and I tightened the drain plug as tightly as a normal person tightens a bolt; I am confident that I did not undertighten or overtighten it. Today, I reinstalled the drain plug (which required removing and replacing all of the oil).

When I did the oil change 2 or 3 months ago, I noticed that the oil looked “aerated” or foamy in there as seen through the sight glass. I neither posted this observation on the forum nor contacted PM about this aerated looking oil.






Further observations:

(1) I see that PM is now recommending ISO 68 for the headstock. When I looked 4 months ago, the PM website said “Light Hydraulic Oil” which is ISO VG 32. I wonder why they changed this.

(2) Not surprisingly, the oil level in the sight glass drops a little when the machine is in use.

(3) I’m back working on the lathe again, and I no longer notice the aforementioned aeration in the oil.

(4) You know after you do an oil change on your car and you add enough oil to get the dipstick to the proper level? After you drive the car a bit, it is recommended that you recheck the oil level. It is often the case that you need to add a little more oil. I wonder if that is what happened to me here.


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## AlanB (Feb 7, 2021)

It is so easy to overtighten a tapered fitting. If teflon tape is indicated then it is a tapered thread seal. I know you like to really torque things, but this is not holding something mechanical, and it is not a grade 8 fitting. It needs to be just tight enough to not leak, and not tighter. as overtightening distorts the tapered threads and causes leakage. You might want to chase the threads with a tap and clean up the plug with a die, or replace the plug and get it just right. In any case leakage from the drain plug could be checked one way or another to see if it is coming out there.


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## AlanB (Feb 7, 2021)

When operating the machine oil is displaced through the system, so naturally the oil in the reservoir will be reduced. Check the oil before starting work, not while running. I would think once per day would be plenty often unless you see oil running across the floor.


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## pacifica (Feb 7, 2021)

The Harrison Boxford I had used a manual oiler for headstock gears and they were still fine after 45+ years. leading me to believe that it is difficult to wear out the gears on your lathe if it was low on oil for several hours.
The back gears rely on periodic grease or oil only.


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## mksj (Feb 7, 2021)

Headstock oil is an ISO32 oil, I have several manuals on the SunMaster lathes and they all recommend the same. Maybe someone is confused, but I would follow the manual. The feed/thread gearbox is ISO68 and so is the the carriage. Since the carriage oiler also provides oils to the Ways, I would suggest Vactra #2 Way Oil or better yet Vacuoline 1409 (ISO68) in the carriage. The Mobil oil is an example there are many equivalent oils by other manufactures. I purchased a 5 gallon pale of Vacuoline 1409 through a local oil distributor, it can also be used in gearbox.
In my headstock I use Miles oil which is $54 for 5 gallons shipped from Zoro, also they have a version with rust inhibitors which is new:








						Miles Lubricants 5 gal. Anti-Wear Hydraulic Fluid Pail 32 ISO Viscosity M0010011303 | Zoro
					

Order Miles Lubricants 5 gal. Anti-Wear Hydraulic Fluid Pail 32 ISO Viscosity, M0010011303 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.




					www.zoro.com
				



https://www.zoro.com/miles-lubrican...scosity-10w-sae-amber-m0010020103/i/G5104167/

Foaming of the oil is common with speed in a splash lubrication system, oils also have anti-foaming additives, the bubbles should dissipate quickly when the machine is stopped. If you did not have any oil level issues before the oil change, then most probably would be leaking from the drain plug. As I mentioned, clean up the oil, drain and reseal the drain plug using some heavy Teflon sealing tape. Run the machine for 30 minutes and then check for leaks. You should check the oil levels as a precaution each day, unless you notice a puddle on the floor. The carriage needs to be topped up periodically because the it is used up feeding the ways, I do 2-3 pumps every 3-4 hours and when done to push out any debris. I always wipe down the machine with way oil when done, most tapping oil will stain the exposed metal parts.


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## erikmannie (Feb 8, 2021)

I will probably continue to use ISO VG 32 (or the ISO 32 Zoro product above) in my PM-1660TL headstock, but this is a screenshot and link from the Precision Matthews website regarding their new recommendation to use ISO 68 in the headstock:








			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/oil-circ-iso68-gal/


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## mksj (Feb 8, 2021)

The listing is generic and not meant to be used in the headstock of your lathe, it is just how it is listed across their website as headstock/gearbox oil, and for your machine it would be the gearbox. There is almost no lathe headstock that uses an ISO68 unless it is a low speed. At high spindle RPM an ISO 68 will present too much drag, will get more aeration and may not flow to the bearings as well in particular when cold. You can call QMT technical, but I have several manuals on these lathes made by SunMaster including those that are from Grizzly's South Bend lathes and they all specify ISO32. I would not use an ISO68 in a lathe headstock, the highest I have seen is ISO46 used in very warm climates. Maybe QMT needs to read their manuals, check with them.


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## 7milesup (Feb 8, 2021)

FWIW Mark, PM actually specifies ISO68 in the headstock of their 1440GT.  The manual for Erik's machine, from what I can see, doesn't specify a viscosity.  I am with you though, I never heard of putting ISO68 in a headstock.


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## xr650rRider (Feb 8, 2021)

The PM-1340GT manual says Mobil DTE, or equivalent, Medium/Heavy circulating oil which is ISO 68.


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## mksj (Feb 8, 2021)

Some machine distributors simplify things by using a single oil viscosity, my original factory manual for my 1340GT was for ISO32 in the headstock. If you are in cooler climates, I would recommend an ISO32.

ERL, RML and TRL series manual:


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