# Noob first lathe purchase questions: Dunlap/Craftsman 109



## gearhead (May 4, 2014)

Hey all, just picked up my new (to me) lathe today. It's the first I've ever owned. It's the late 30s Companion, made right before they switched to the 109 with the full cover over the drive pulleys that most people are familiar with. It came with the four-jaw a back plate and an old Packard motor (that works just fine!). I think I did okay for the $125 price tag, though it's not like I stole it. I'm clearing space in the shop for it right now, but I'm fairly new to most things related to metal machining. I did work in a machine shop for a year as a welder and machine operator, but most of this is news to me.

What should I look at first on this machine as far as inspecting its condition? Also, how do I go about figuring up what kind/size belt to use with it? I have one cutter that's in the lamp post now, and that's it. I am hoping to do brass, some mild steel and a little stainless. What are some improvements I might want to make while I am doing maintenance/rehab on it?

Thanks, Tom.


----------



## gearhead (May 5, 2014)

I know it's not very fancy or exciting, but if I could get a little point in the right direction on this piece of equipment I'd be grateful. I think that maybe this is like the model 109 from the 40s on up with the full cover over the drive pulleys, but I'm not sure. I don't know which parts interchange, and I don't know what to look at or look for in getting this up and running. The seller told me there is a washer in behind the drive pulley that should be replaced with a better one (he said he put it in just for a test snug-up of things), and I'm not sure what to do about that. Is there a place to go, maybe another web site that has some guys who are into working on these things? I just want to get it up and running and see how well it works before deciding how much more effort I'll be putting into it.

Many thanks!


----------



## wa5cab (May 6, 2014)

Tom,

Remove the chuck and give us a right view, rear view left end view photo of the headstock.  And a low front view of the carriage apron.  

Robert D.


----------



## 12bolts (May 6, 2014)

What Robert said.
+ did the previous owner show it running? Make sure you get plenty of oil into the spindle bearings before you switch it on. Do all the handles turn freely and better still, smoothly?

Cheers Phil


----------



## ericc (May 6, 2014)

Hi.  There are a lot of people on this forum with this type of lathe.  I have one, and it is not completely running yet.  In fact, I broke something trying to get it to work.  Does everything function smoothly and turn?  The front bearing should be tight enough that the chuck cannot be wiggled appreciably from the front.  Do you have a motor and belt?  A cutting tool?  Don't spend too much money or time until you find out that something is working.


----------



## The Liberal Arts Garage (May 6, 2014)

gearhead said:


> I know it's not very fancy or exciting, but if I could get a little point in the right direction on this piece of equipment I'd be grateful. I think that maybe this is like the model 109 from the 40s on up with the full cover over the drive pulleys, but I'm not sure. I don't know which parts interchange, and I don't know what to look at or look for in getting this up and running. The seller told me there is a washer in behind the drive pulley that should be replaced with a better one (he said he put it in just for a test snug-up of things), and I'm not sure what to do about that. Is there a place to go, maybe another web site that has some guys who are into working on these things? I just want to get it up and running and see how well it works before deciding how much more effort I'll be putting into it.
> 
> Many thanks!


Sorry, my advise sent before coming to the picture; this seems to be a 7302. Earlier ( cheaper) form without gears, etc. send off for catalogue excerpts and manual. A kit was offerred to convert.BLJHB


----------



## Rapscallion (May 6, 2014)

First thing, what ericc said. Check the spindle bearings. If you can't take it apart (or before you take it apart) try and wiggle the spindle with your hands with firm force. If it moves (even a little) you will need to sort out the headstock bearings before you can test its performance. If you can't move it (or feel it move) with your hands you may then want to put a dial on it and knock it around a bit while turning it. Especially try knocking it upward to check for worn bearings/housings.
If the chuck is sturdy, then as has been mentioned by Phil make sure the bearings are oiled before you start it. I'm not familiar with Craftsman 109 lathes but they may have oil orifices.

Have fun. )


----------



## gearhead (May 6, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for all the beginner's advice. I will have time tomorrow night to try out the disassembling and get some photos. Where would I go to find a manual with some diagrams for this thing? Also, it's very obvious at this point that I need some sort of manual that identifies the basic parts, because I don't know what many parts are called, like carriage apron. I need to get familiar with all the general lathe terms.

Oh, and for what it's worth, the spindle does turn, but it has one little snug spot in it, the seller said as a result of him putting in that washer on the inboard side of the drive pulleys. The handles on everything else turn, although the long one that runs across the carriage in the front (blanking on the name) it is snug, but I think that's just from some grime on it and it needs a bit more cleaning. 

I got a Packard motor with it that works. I just have to fab a mount. Tonight I painted up a mounting board on which to put the lathe and motor.


----------



## CluelessNewB (May 6, 2014)

*Dunlap/Craftsman 109 Manuals*

Not an exact match but here are some links to manuals from the Vintage Machinery web site for newer versions of the 109 lathe:

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=4575

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=601

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=2112

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=6603

And this:
http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=6218


----------



## gearhead (May 7, 2014)

Okay, got a little time with it this evening. Pics below of both sides of headstock and a low shot of the carriage apron. I wiggled the chuck, and the spindle is noticeably loose in the headstock. If this is the same as the 109, then I think I'm correct that the rear bearing is a plain one and the front is a special tapered piece with slots for oiling? Thanks for the help and the links. I've gotten some more reading done, and I'm starting to get a bit of a feel for things.


----------



## gearhead (May 7, 2014)

I got the spindle out and the front bearing. Here are photos of both. You can feel the ridges in the spindle a bit with your fingernail, and I lightly ran a screwdriver over the ones in the bearing, and you can feel that a bit too. These pieces are shot, aren't they? Are these the same parts as for the 109? That would be good if I could get new, or better used ones (at least in the case of the spindle).

Oh, and one other thing: there was a piece of paper wrapped around the front bearing. Is that a normal way to take up slack, or is that a real slapdash way of getting the job done?





Thanks,
Tom


----------



## 12bolts (May 7, 2014)

Re Paper around the bearing, that is a real dodgy way of hiding a fault! It would not even be a slapdash way of fixing a wear problem.
Depending on the spindle wear, you may be able to reuse it. If the main diameter is still remaining and its just some grooves then you may get away with replacement bearings. If the wear is such that the diameter is reduced significantly then if you have access to another lathe or know someone then perhaps you could make "specials" bearings.
I hope you dont find too much else wrong, but your in the right place for helpful advice.

Cheers Phil


----------



## gearhead (May 7, 2014)

12bolts said:


> Re Paper around the bearing, that is a real dodgy way of hiding a fault! It would not even be a slapdash way of fixing a wear problem.
> Depending on the spindle wear, you may be able to reuse it. If the main diameter is still remaining and its just some grooves then you may get away with replacement bearings. If the wear is such that the diameter is reduced significantly then if you have access to another lathe or know someone then perhaps you could make "specials" bearings.
> I hope you dont find too much else wrong, but your in the right place for helpful advice.
> 
> Cheers Phil



Thanks, Phil. In removing the spindle I found that the bearing areas slid out easily from the bearings, but when I got to the unused portions of the spindle they got stuck in the bearing while being pulled free. This made me think that I'd not want - or even be able to - get the spindle back into the headstock if I got new bearings, as the high spots on the spindle would just gouge out the bearings as it was slid back home.

The tailstock spindle also is loose. Is there a way to tighten it up, or is it also just worn badly? How do I remove it to check?

Hmmm...what to do. I looked at spindles for the 109 (only assuming that it's the same as mine) and it seems a new one would cost me as much or a bit over what I paid for the whole lathe. It seems bearings are 50 bucks on eBay, which would put me way over what I paid for it. And here I am seeing 109s for sale for around $300. Sometimes it's hard to know what the right thing to do is until you've done the wrong thing. I'm not sure what my next move should be here. I have prepared a board on which to mount the lathe and motor. I bought a belt this evening. I suppose the lathe will literally perform the function of turning, but perhaps it would do such a poor job as to be nearly unusable. 

I'm open to thoughts. I need some help here. I'm way outside my field of experience. Thanks!


----------



## 12bolts (May 8, 2014)

Did you have specific job in mind at this stage or just wanted to get a lathe up and running for future use?
For low speed, low impact work of a simple nature then a couple of simple (rough) fixes will get you running. Bear in mind that these are not recommended methods by any stretch but will get you learning and turning with a view to improving your ability to recognize a better lathe when it comes along.
You can make a dummy spindle with a point and put that in place, using that to hold your original spindle between centres, you can use emery to smooth out your rough areas on the spindle.
Split the existing worn bearings, and shim the outside of them to reduce the inside diameter when you push them back in. Using a mandrel in a power drill with emery cloth you can open them up until they accept the cleaned up spindle.
Now with the original spindle in place you can fit your chuck and make some new bearings to fit, (brass, although not ideal, will do in a pinch) and if its necessary a new spindle.
Remember to keep the oil up to it, as it will probably leak out as fast as you put it in.

Cheers Phil


----------



## 12bolts (May 8, 2014)

With the tail stock spindle being loose, are you referring to up/down, side/side slop or the spindle can turn, (rotate) in the barrel?

Cheers Phil


----------



## gearhead (May 8, 2014)

12bolts said:


> With the tail stock spindle being loose, are you referring to up/down, side/side slop or the spindle can turn, (rotate) in the barrel?
> 
> Cheers Phil



Thanks again, Phil! To address this question, it is slop, meaning you can grab the handle and wiggle it side/side and up/down. It does turn just fine, though. You can crank the center in and out.

As for the previous reply, much appreciated! At this point I am looking to learn how to make some bushings, collars and spacers for my mechanical art work. These parts generally turn at a very slow speed, say around 4 or 6rpm. While they do need to be precise enough not to visibly wobble, tens of thousandths in accuracy is probably not necessary for me at this point. I need to get familiar with lathe terms, turning procedures, materials usage and the like. Since I've never done any turning at all, even being able to do a few simple pieces would be of value in the learning process.

I will get back on it this evening if I can and see what kind of progress I can make. I assume by splitting the bearings you mean make a cut down one side so that I can effectively compress the overall diameter with shims. What material should I use for shimming? Also, if you could please recommend some basic tools (not only cutters but measuring and such) and halfway decent manufacturers, I will order them. I will need the measuring tools for life. No point in putting off that expense. Only thing I have now is a pair of dial calipers.

Thanks again. It really is a big help!


----------



## Rapscallion (May 8, 2014)

Those are some good ideas from Phil and I'd give them a go in the absence of help from a fellow hobby machinist.

Ideally what you need is someone nearby that can make you new bushes. Even if it's for a small charge.


----------



## 12bolts (May 9, 2014)

The slop you refer to is barrel wear and is par for the course on an older lathe. Often caused by over zealous drilling of large holes, the resulting chatter and side forces tend to bell and wear the barrel opening. I have a bit, some, .........well......... excessive wear in mine but I just live with it.
Yes split the bearings with a hacksaw. If you can do it with a bit of a spiral cut (not looking for full circle, but better than a straight line) then the bearing will have a better join point. Ally beer drink cans make great shim material. They are quite accuratley thicknessed, abundant, free, (relatively i suppose) and fun to produce. Empty contents, rinse, cut open, (box cutter works fine) and repeat. Empty contents, rinse, cut. Emtpy contensh, rinze, cut, band aid, repeat.
Reasonable quality dial calipers are usually quite accurate. And my most go to tool. A micrometer is not neccessary at this stage as your machine is probably not capable of that accuracy at it stands now. A 6" pocket rule, a 12-24" rule, 4-6" try square, combination square. Dont go overboard buying a bunch of tools you think you might need. Better to just buy quality as the job demands. I am lucky in that I have my original apprentice tool kit kindly supplied by my 1st employer and I have just added to it over the years as required. It was basic, but quality at the start, and I have it insured for replacement value in excess of $100 k. But that is 35 years of tooling and equipment.
Hard to recommend manufacturers as Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharpe, Starrett etc make great measuring tools, but probably make lousy spanners, Sidchrome on the other hand used to make great sockets and screw drivers but probably couldnt measure better than 1/8".
Buy a 1/2 decent drill set and as you replace the worn broken ones, buy good quailty individual pieces. You will find that you end up with a set full of unused cheapy bits and 1/2 doz commonly used good quailty. If you need to do threading buy a el cheapo tap and die set, and again just replace the worn out ones with top quality.

Cheers Phil


----------



## kd8wdave (May 10, 2014)

gearhead said:


> Hey all, just picked up my new (to me) lathe today. It's the first I've ever owned. It's the late 30s Companion, made right before they switched to the 109 with the full cover over the drive pulleys that most people are familiar with. It came with the four-jaw a back plate and an old Packard motor (that works just fine!). I think I did okay for the $125 price tag, though it's not like I stole it. I'm clearing space in the shop for it right now, but I'm fairly new to most things related to metal machining. I did work in a machine shop for a year as a welder and machine operator, but most of this is news to me.
> 
> What should I look at first on this machine as far as inspecting its condition? Also, how do I go about figuring up what kind/size belt to use with it? I have one cutter that's in the lamp post now, and that's it. I am hoping to do brass, some mild steel and a little stainless. What are some improvements I might want to make while I am doing maintenance/rehab on it?
> 
> ...



Hi Tom ,
Your lathe is described on a website located in the UK, 'www.lathes.co.uk' under the craftsman link.
Might be worth a 'read' there. 

cheers

- - - Updated - - -



gearhead said:


> Hey all, just picked up my new (to me) lathe today. It's the first I've ever owned. It's the late 30s Companion, made right before they switched to the 109 with the full cover over the drive pulleys that most people are familiar with. It came with the four-jaw a back plate and an old Packard motor (that works just fine!). I think I did okay for the $125 price tag, though it's not like I stole it. I'm clearing space in the shop for it right now, but I'm fairly new to most things related to metal machining. I did work in a machine shop for a year as a welder and machine operator, but most of this is news to me.
> 
> What should I look at first on this machine as far as inspecting its condition? Also, how do I go about figuring up what kind/size belt to use with it? I have one cutter that's in the lamp post now, and that's it. I am hoping to do brass, some mild steel and a little stainless. What are some improvements I might want to make while I am doing maintenance/rehab on it?
> 
> ...



Hi Tom ,
Your lathe is described on a website located in the UK, 'www.lathes.co.uk' under the craftsman link.
Might be worth a 'read' there. 

cheers


----------



## The Liberal Arts Garage (Jun 5, 2014)

quite 





gearhead said:


> I know it's not very fancy or exciting, but if I could get a little point in the right direction on this piece of equipment I'd be grateful. I think that maybe this is like the model 109 from the 40s on up with the full cover over the drive pulleys, but I'm not sure. I don't know which parts interchange, and I don't know what to look at or look for in getting this up and running. The seller told me there is a washer in behind the drive pulley that should be replaced with a better one (he said he put it in just for a test snug-up of things), and I'm not sure what to do about that. Is there a place to go, maybe another web site that has some guys who are into working on these things? I just want to get it up and running and see how well it works before deciding how much more effort I'll be putting into ,,
> Many thanks!


This is a museum piece;I would try to pass it on (perhaps to someone who has a gear conversion
kit) The usefulness to you is small ,the repair cost and effort excessive. I have the next version of109 0703, still built before 1940. It is quite different in detail.Mine has cost me at least $250,
but will be  pretty good in beauty and function. By the way, it cost me $60 , and all my labor free.
........BLJHB


----------



## pdentrem (Jun 5, 2014)

12bolts said:


> Did you have specific job in mind at this stage or just wanted to get a lathe up and running for future use?
> For low speed, low impact work of a simple nature then a couple of simple (rough) fixes will get you running. Bear in mind that these are not recommended methods by any stretch but will get you learning and turning with a view to improving your ability to recognize a better lathe when it comes along.
> You can make a dummy spindle with a point and put that in place, using that to hold your original spindle between centres, you can use emery to smooth out your rough areas on the spindle.
> Split the existing worn bearings, and shim the outside of them to reduce the inside diameter when you push them back in. Using a mandrel in a power drill with emery cloth you can open them up until they accept the cleaned up spindle.
> ...



The machine lathe is one machine that can rebuild itself. With human intervention required of course.
You can make a new spindle as Phil suggest by using the correct size drill rod and new bushings to fit. With any luck, standard sized oilite bushings might even be of correct size for the OD (outside dimension) and just buy the matching drill rod for the bushings ID. With this done you can now start making either a new spindle to match the threaded chuck end and either reuse the new bushings that you have installed or totally new bushings for the new spindle. 

I would suggest that the new bushings be the split type as that you can take up any wear that will occur over time. Another point to make is that if you have to turn the running surfaces on the spindle to fit the bushings, you will need a good finish otherwise the bushings will die very quickly. A ground finish and polished in both directions of rotation to remove the grinding wheel surface roughness is required. What I mean about that is the grinding wheel leave a stubble, like the raised grain fuzz you get when you wet a sanded wood surface, this has to be removed or it will machine the bushings to destruction.

Based upon the previous paragraph, I think that making a new spindle using drill rod with a welded on collar and a stub to machine the threaded chuck end might be the way to go. I can not tell exactly how the spindle is made up by your photo so this is just a guess.
Pierre


----------

