# Premium Memberships



## Baithog (May 21, 2016)

When does this start?
Does this remove the ability to post pictures of project progress? Or just albums. Not sure I know what an album does.
What makes you think that people that won't donate even a few dollars voluntarily will happily bend to coercion?


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## HMF (May 21, 2016)

This begins immediately.
Posting of photos on projects will not be affected. Just albums.

It's not coercion- the web hosting company doesn't coerce us when they want $200+ per month for a dedicated server.
That is what the service costs to keep this place running and expanding.

If you enjoy the site, $20 for one year should not be extreme.


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## JR49 (May 21, 2016)

Coercion?? Give me a break!  This is a great idea, Nels, I've sent in 20 bucs about each year that I've been a member without being asked anyway.  But, I still feel a little guilty when I log on and see that donation % banner on the home page, especially this month, cause its not even close to what you need.  I've often thought, with the many thousands of members, if every one gave just a little bit, the forum would be fine.  Plus, this will (hopefully) stop all the people who just join to get to the downloads. Thanks Nels,  JR49


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## Baithog (May 22, 2016)

Notice that I spent some time and thought before replying - No JR, I will not give you a break, or Nels either. Look it up. The site is attempting to get financial buy in by taking away privileges. That is coercion. Look it up before banging on your keyboard. And no, the purchase of a dedicated server service is not coercion. The user initiates the transaction and knows up front what the costs are. Now if they gave you a dedicated server and just asked for a donation, then when they didn't get enough, they took away half the server until you paid up, then they would be coercing you to part with more funds. There is nothing wrong with coercion. The internet was founded on it as its primary business model.

The question was what makes the board think that this will induce enough new donors to finance the expansion, and not to get into a pissing about definitions. I have seen the explosive growth of the site. I have watched as Nels has asked, cajoled, and begged for funding. We have banners, graphs, and appellations. It hasn't really been effective. Way back it was discussed that all we needed was a dollar a month. And if just a quarter of the users kicked in, there should be enough to pay for hosting and bandwidth. Well, that hasn't happened. So, what makes the management think that restricting downloads and albums will be that much more effective?

I suppose my lack of faith comes from the carrot/stick that is being used. I doubt that I would miss the downloads. I was very curious about it when I first joined and had to prove my value as a member before being granted access, but I don't think I have kept anything that I have looked at in Downloads. And the same for albums. I think I used it to put a graphic in the groups editor before I discovered a better way. For me, I could stop donating and wouldn't see any loss of functionality. So I have to ask, if a donor doesn't see a need for membership, then why would the skinflints among us? Maybe you have usage stats that show widespread use of those 2 features. I had hoped that you would have assured us that there was, indeed, wide spread use of those features that members couldn't get along without. That would be great. It really isn't fair for the few to keep paying the way of the data vampires.

I sent in $15 in March and it is on my calendar to send in another $15 in September. The plan was to do $30/yr, although I have recently been thinking $3 month for $36/yr would be better. Next year I send in $20 and get my Premium banner. What do I get for the other $15 or so? Do you have a plan to make the user's banner "H-M Member, H-M supporter, H-M Premium, and H-M Premium bronze with silver and gold possible? I know, more work...just a thought.


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## mikey (May 22, 2016)

Personally, I see nothing wrong with charging the members to support this site. Like you, Larry, I don't download stuff and I don't even know if I have an album or not. None of that matters to me. What does matter is that Nelson and the staff work hard to provide a place for us to gather, share and learn and they shouldn't have to struggle to pay for something that benefits US. When I look at all the work it takes for Nelson and the mods to do what they do it humbles me, it really does.

I see no use of force or threat to gain your money. If we don't use the albums or downloads then it costs us nothing to enjoy the best metalworking website on the net so no coercion really exists. I suspect many folks join HM for the downloads and then they're gone, having contributed nothing to our community. I don't care about that but they do cost bandwidth so charging for that bandwidth is not objectionable to me.

With that said, I think anyone who wants to read the material here should not have to pay to do so but if you want to post as an active member or access the downloads then an annual $5.00 fee would buy the privilege. If every active member currently on the rolls right now were to pay five bucks annually they would have over $80,000.00 per year to pay for whatever they needed to pay. Five bucks - would any of us even feel that? If a current member cannot see enough value in this site to pay that tiny amount then fine, see ya!


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## wrmiller (May 22, 2016)

I agree that reading the material/threads here should be free. I also see nothing wrong in asking someone to join and pay a minor stipend in order to post, reply to a post, or download anything. Just my $0.02


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## MozamPete (May 23, 2016)

I have no problem with the idea, and I hope it works - but I must say my gut feeling is that it wont increase revenue much.

I would guess that 90% of the posts and/or use of this site is by 10% of the members (or less).  And 90% of those 10% already donate volintarily (and are happy to pay an annual membership instead).  But the net result is your getting about the same amount of money, from the same people, just in a different way. And there is an argument that it is this 10% that are creating the content that make the site so valuable so philosophically should be the ones paying the least.

The infrequent or one time users who don't currently donate are unlikley to pay for a membership.  They only sign up to get a particular manual or to be allowed to contact another member with a specific question. Having a method to generate some revenue from them is what is needed as they are getting real value but contribute little.  Advertising is the obvious way and I fully support a mempership model that removes ads for paying members - even at tripple the premium member cost proposed.

But it is difficult to find a bussiness model that will target the people who get the value from the site without contributing to it - while not driving them away as you give them too many hoops to jump through before they can see the value of the site .  And I'm sure a membership model helps a lot with cashflow and budgeting as you can better antisipate future payments.

It's a great site with an army of knowledgable, passionate people passing on valuable information - I'm not going anywhere and would pay whatever was asked as I value this site as a learning tool (and as great entertainment, I find myself using free time just reading post here more than watching TV)

Good luck.

All that being said, I  have never run a fourm so it is a pretty unsubstatiated"feeling" for how these things work.  It would be very interesting to see some actual statistics on the  usage/traffic verse % of members.


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## Bill Gruby (May 23, 2016)

Gut feelings are extremely accurate, Hence the saying, "I've got a gut feeling"  Most times they are negative but it's better to run with it and see what happens.

 :Billy G"


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## Firestopper (May 23, 2016)

I believe supporting this site is essential for its existence. I enjoy learning from others as well as sharing ideas and this site does it with class. Many other sites, not so much...
If one can't afford to donate, thats ok too and I don't judge so long as folks continue to support one another with respect. To me, respect is worth way more than money.

I have gained some valuable friendships and have this site to thank.


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## davidh (May 24, 2016)

i love the free stuff as well as the next guy but i still think "pay to play" would be the answer.  i was appalled a few years ago when i looked at the list of actual donors vrs the list of members. . . . . it was something like 5000 to 15 or similar.  un-real in this day and age.  a wise old fellow told me that in life "the more you give, the more you receive" be it the offering plate at church or your daily interaction with humans. . . .  don't believe me ?  try it. . . . . .  just sayin'


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## jpfabricator (May 24, 2016)

Am I misstaken as a 501(c)3 site all donations are tax deductable. 

Sent from somewhere in East Texas by Jake Parker!


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## Bill Gruby (May 24, 2016)

They are supposed to be Jake.

 "Bill"


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## jpfabricator (May 24, 2016)

So.........I get premium membership, help support the site, get a super cool banner over my name, continue to get to learn from experienced men and women, have a network of material and parts sources, access to classifieds, and get to deduct it all from my taxes!

Who can argue with that!

Sent from somewhere in East Texas by Jake Parker!


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## davidh (May 24, 2016)

exactly,  jake. . . . part of the reason for the non profit status. . .  could there be "grant money" available as it is a non=profit ? ? ? nelson ?


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## ogberi (May 24, 2016)

The $20 I spent on a premium membership buys a helluva lot more knowledge on here than it does buying secondhand machining books on ebay.  Not to mention the ability to pick the collective brains of some damn smart and experienced machinists on exactly the issue I need help with. Add to that things like the pass around,  the classifieds, and the sharing of plans for projects, not to mention the non-douchebag atmosphere...  Well worth it.


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## rwm (May 24, 2016)

Wait. Lets review. Are you saying it costs $2400 per year to run this site? If every member gave $1. We could take over the world! Ok maybe China.
R


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## HMF (May 25, 2016)

*Starting June 1, 2016, this site will switch to a dedicated server.

This provides us with more disk space, bandwidth, and speed. 
However, this is much more expensive to provide.*
*We could really use your help.*

*For a donation of $20 or more per year, you can help support the added service that we are bringing you.*

*Please click on http://www.hobby-machinist.com/donate/ in order to keep us going.*
*
Thank you and God Bless you!


Nels
on behalf of H-M*


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## Baithog (May 25, 2016)

I hope the switch is seamless and we don't loose anything in the process. It should be. Should-be has bedeviled administrators for scores of years. 

And if this doesn't generate the income you and the board need, remember that we may not like adverting, we would tolerate it, especially if it was visited on the non-supporters. Commercial sponsors would be great. We don't want the site closed to casual searchers, but other forums restrict the functionality of in-line links and visibility of in-line graphics to members only. Anything that effectively induces the non-supporters to part with funds! You like 'induce' better than 'coerce'?


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## higgite (May 25, 2016)

Has the forum board/management looked at using one of the web hosts that provide free hosting services to 501(c)3 non-profit organizations such as this one? I see that some offer unlimited storage, unlimited bandwidth, and an unlimited number of hosted sub-domains. I'm not web hosting savvy enough to know what all of that means or if it would work here or not, but thought I would mention it as a possible way to defray operating costs without resorting to selling services.

Tom


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## rrjohnso2000 (May 25, 2016)

I usually like to stay out of the fray but I'll throw in my .02

I enjoy the friendly nature and actual knowledge this forum has to offer. I'm fine with the forum being populated by only those who can adhere to the rules. I have noticed that some newer members can push the line on the friendly aspect. I'm not saying that this forum should close its doors and remain small. 

I could be happy with a forum that needs $50 $100 from me a year to keep it a friendly place that has a main core group. I would even be happy covering the cost of non paying content generating friendly people. 

Somewhere it was mentioned that many users join for some specific content. If I was in that position and needed the info $5-7 seems reasonable for a manual. Maybe that gets you a day, two, or five. 

I understand that this is not my forum. This is not armchair quarterbacking but rather what I would be willing to do if changes were being considered. Thanks Nels!


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## CraigB1960 (May 25, 2016)

I have no problem with paying a premium membership for the privilege of having access to this wonderful group of folks here on H-M.  It takes money to operate this site and I would bet that Nels has to pick up the slack if donations do not cover the costs....that is just not fair to him.  Especially considering the time he has to put in just keeping this site running.

It is discouraging when I see folks simply signing up to have access to downloads or to gain info and not participate.  Our forum thrives because of the good interaction between it's members as well as the friendly nature of these responses.

With all this said, I have no problem donating even more to keep this place a good refuge for the Hobbyist Machinist.  I personally have pledge to make a monthly donation.  I am on a fixed income, but receive far more value from this site than I do with many commodities that I purchase monthly.


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## intjonmiller (May 25, 2016)

It has pained me that I haven't contributed already. We had multiple vehicle repairs, multiple dentist bills, and a new pair of glasses for my daughter, all in two consecutive months, leaving me with no flexibility there at the moment. But within the next 4-6 weeks I should be caught up and ahead of things again and I intend to contribute. *I hereby instruct anyone who reads this after July 1st, 2016 to harass me if I do not have the H-M Supporter tag under my name.  *

The value of this site is far more than $20/year can get me anywhere else. I'm paying almost 5x that every month just for the internet access just to come here (and I suppose my family also uses it for other things). 

As long as we're giving feedback about the choices that forum administrators have to make, I would like to add that I hate it when a site requires an account just to view images that are part of a discussion. I have at least a couple dozen accounts that were only created for that reason. Those accounts are distorting the numbers for the administrators of those other sites, while not doing anything to encourage me to participate on their sites (much less contribute financially) because I only needed the account to research a problem that came up one time, or some other passing need. It is my personal view that the information that we contribute in a forum like this is a public good, and should be publicly available. Keeping that sort of thing private minimizes the amount of good that our contributions can make. Again, just my view in case it makes any difference to anyone.


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## intjonmiller (May 25, 2016)

I just noticed the box with the monthly goal. Glad to see that the push is working.


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