# Need Help: Choosing a mill



## MyLilMule (Feb 11, 2021)

I am just getting started in machinery, I don't even have my lathe in a working condition. But I KNOW I will be adding a mill to my home hobby workshop within the next year. I've ruled out buying something brand new (budgetary) and don't mind something a little more vintage (old school is cool school) and have ruled out any kind of mill/drill and am only considering knee mills with power feed options.

My questions surround just which mills should I look for and which ones should I avoid? I know very little about them and am just beginning to do the research.

A few points to keep in mind when offering your input:

It's for my home hobby shop, not a full time production shop, second job, etc. (I won't make ANY money from it)
I have no interest in CNC at this time
I don't mind a refurbishment project (my 1941 13" South Bend is getting refreshed, NOT rebuilt to factory specs)
I don't care about collectibility or any of that
I DO care about availability and AFFORDABILITY of replacement parts
I currently don't have 3 phase of any kind
I'm NOT looking to make super precision parts for Space-X
I don't have buckets of hundos waiting to be spent on frivolous adventures 
With all that lot in mind, I will basically be looking for a mill that would be priced reasonably, in usable condition, but might need a little love here and there and would be easy enough for a novice to tackle. I am sure there are some models or configurations that someone like me should avoid, and ones that I should snap up if I see it. Are there different tool holding options I should avoid, one kind of collet vs. another, etc.? Are there certain types that are harder or more expensive to fix? Are there ones that came configured for, or can be converted to, single phase 220 easy enough or did they all come from the factory needing 3 phase (via direct/converter/VFD)?

I'm specifically thinking about Bridgeport (or one of the clones) as those, at least on the surface, seem to be most popular. The name on the badge means little to me, except for the aforementioned reasons above (availability and affordability) - I saw a YouTube video of someone trying to restore a mill and the pulleys would have been $4,000 a piece had he not found what he needed on eBay - I don't want to take that kind of trip.

Thanks in advance. Not sure if there is a link or document somewhere already existing that might cover the differences. But knowing which configuration most fits my desires is going to be the most helpful.


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## Winegrower (Feb 11, 2021)

Your thinking is impeccable, mule.    I think Bridgeport and clones are the best deal, the biggest availability of parts, the most available accessories, biggest work envelope, most training videos, and best available support.   Get the cleanest you can afford, don't be afraid of 3 phase motors, just get an inexpensive Phase-a-Matic converter and start making chips.


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## MyLilMule (Feb 11, 2021)

I'm not afraid of 3 phase, at all. But single phase 220 is one less thing I have to worry about. If I have to go 3 phase, it's fine.

Getting one I can afford is one thing. But what I don't want to do is to find out that one has some obscure collet closer and it'd cost more to replace it that the machine is worth, if you get my example. What's the most popular and affordable tool holding system?

For example, my SB lathe has a 1-7/8"-8 spindle thread. Not popular. Impossible to find chucks for it. Or things like taper attachments that must be made of gold or unicorn snot. lol. I'm enjoying the lathe rebuild project, but unlikely it will be my last lathe, or if it even stays very long, as I am going to find not having a steady rest or a larger spindle bore, etc., to be the limiting factor. I could sell it and buy something else WITH all that stuff for less money than to add it.


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## Winegrower (Feb 11, 2021)

Bridgeports use R8 collets which are inexpensive, widely available, and work fine.   Lots of more specialized tool holders are available as R8 as well.   You can't do better.

Best wishes.


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## Aukai (Feb 11, 2021)

I'm wondering what brands, and how they stack up too. BP seem to get the most attention, but what about Webb, Lagun, Sharp, and others? I have read, and it has been said that others may be more robust, for the same size. I have no practical knowledge, and hope that there is some discussion.


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## benmychree (Feb 11, 2021)

I had an Induma mill (Italian) it had the R8 spindle, was about the same size as a BP and a bit heavier, it was a good machine.


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## Norseman C.B. (Feb 11, 2021)

BP clones are for the most part just as good and some are better.
I have an ACRA clone and am very happy with it, the performance is right on par with BP
but I would avoid machines with non R-8 spindles due to cost .........


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## benmychree (Feb 11, 2021)

Norseman C.B. said:


> BP clones are for the most part just as good and some are better.
> I have an ACRA clone and am very happy with it, the performance is right on par with BP
> but I would avoid machines with non R-8 spindles due to cost .........


I used my Induma mill for many years with its R8 spindle, then bought a Fray vertical mill with NMTB 30 taper spindle, I found lots of tool holders for it on E Bay for quite reasonable prices, I like it much better than R8 because it is easier to change due to its shorter length and steep taper, and it is also used on my #2 B&S mill's universal head and also, with a 40 - 30 adaptor can be used in the main (horizontal) spindle.


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## Norseman C.B. (Feb 11, 2021)

Not knockin  NMTB tooling, used a lot of it when I was employed just sayin that it is more common
to the hobby machinist circles .........................


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## benmychree (Feb 11, 2021)

Norseman C.B. said:


> Not knockin  NMTB tooling, used a lot of it when I was employed just sayin that it is more common
> to the hobby machinist circles .........................


Yes, true, but a machine may present itself with a 30 taper spindle for a bargain price, and as I said 30 taper tooling is pretty plentiful on e bay at reasonable prices.


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 11, 2021)

You seem to be on the right track. I would recommend a belt-change mill rather a vari-drive due to lower pricing and greater simplicity. Vari-drive is a very nice feature and important in a commercial shop, but it adds complexity and expense in case of repair.  I have a Kent 9x42 belt-change machine. It is a BP clone in every respect except it has a 2-speed motor, which is a very nice upgrade and common on many clones. If at all possible, avoid round-ram machines, get a dovetail ram, which allows adjustment without losing tram.


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## graham-xrf (Feb 11, 2021)

Don't let finding a 3-Phase stop you. If you have a 220 input, a torque controlled VFD with 3-phase output from a 220V single phase input making a 311V bus can be the fix, and you get high torque slow speed as well.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 11, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> xcept it has a 2-speed motor,



As MrWhoopee stated . Encos also have the 2 speed motor which is a step pulley . Not a bad setup at all .


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## projectnut (Feb 12, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> You seem to be on the right track. I would recommend a belt-change mill rather a vari-drive due to lower pricing and greater simplicity. Vari-drive is a very nice feature and important in a commercial shop, but it adds complexity and expense in case of repair.  I have a Kent 9x42 belt-change machine. It is a BP clone in every respect except it has a 2-speed motor, which is a very nice upgrade and common on many clones. If at all possible, avoid round-ram machines, get a dovetail ram, which allows adjustment without losing tram.



I'm in the opposite camp as far as vari-drive versus step pulley.  I've had a 1974  Series I Bridgeport with the vari-drive for nearly 20 years.  I do a lot of different materials and find the vari-drive much more convenient that a step pulley machine.  Granted they are a bit more complex, and probably a bit more expensive to repair should they fail.  However mine is now over 46 years old, it's used on a daily basis, and still is completely original.

As for 3 phase I wouldn't avoid it.  My machine has been running on a Phase A Matic static phase converter ever since I put it in the shop.  As mentioned I run it on an almost daily basis.  Some weeks as much as 40 to 60 hours.  Static converters are cheap and easy to install.  The only caveat is that the motor will only produce about 2/3 its rated hp.  With a static converter a set of capacitors provides the third leg until the motor comes up to speed.  Then it drops out and essentially the motor is running on single phase.  In 20+ years of running my mill on a static converter I have never had a lack of power or problem with overheating.

I have 4 machines in the shop running on static converters. They include the Bridgeport mill, Sheldon, lathe Racine power hacksaw, and Black Diamond drill grinder.  I have no problem with a VFD.  In the case of my machines I thought the static converters were a better choice.  They allow all functions including speed changes to be done with the original control panels, and without rewiring any machine components.  It takes all of 15 minutes to install a static converter, and they are all but bullet proof.


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## ttabbal (Feb 12, 2021)

Can't go wrong with a Bridgeport style mill for a home shop. The only downsides to me are size and price. If those work for you, they are great. I can only personally speak for the Bridgeport brand, but I haven't heard anything bad for the clones. https://www.machinerypartsdepot.com/parts_for_bridgeport is a great source for parts and they will often provide advice as well. The repair manual they sell for the BP Series 1 is also quite nice. Most parts are even still available new. There are a LOT of these mills out there. So long as the ways are in decent shape, you can fix anything else. 

Just about anything this size will be 3 phase, unless someone already swapped the motor out. For my step pulley machine, I use an import VFD. <$100. It works great and I can run anywhere from 20%-200% speed without issues. With that and the back gear, I don't have to change the belt position. I just keep it in the 2nd fastest speed 90% of the time. My mill actually has 2 of them, one for the power feed as it's the old style with a small 3 phase motor and a gearbox on X. The only complication was the control setup, but that's just a little wiring and a few switches. If you would prefer to stick to the stock switches/controls, a static or rotary converter is a good choice.


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 12, 2021)

projectnut said:


> I'm in the opposite camp as far as vari-drive versus step pulley.  I've had a 1974  Series I Bridgeport with the vari-drive for nearly 20 years.  I do a lot of different materials and find the vari-drive much more convenient that a step pulley machine.  Granted they are a bit more complex, and probably a bit more expensive to repair should they fail.  However mine is now over 46 years old, it's used on a daily basis, and still is completely original.
> 
> As for 3 phase I wouldn't avoid it.  My machine has been running on a Phase A Matic static phase converter ever since I put it in the shop.  As mentioned I run it on an almost daily basis.  Some weeks as much as 40 to 60 hours.  Static converters are cheap and easy to install.  The only caveat is that the motor will only produce about 2/3 its rated hp.  With a static converter a set of capacitors provides the third leg until the motor comes up to speed.  Then it drops out and essentially the motor is running on single phase.  In 20+ years of running my mill on a static converter I have never had a lack of power or problem with overheating.
> 
> I have 4 machines in the shop running on static converters. They include the Bridgeport mill, Sheldon, lathe Racine power hacksaw, and Black Diamond drill grinder.  I have no problem with a VFD.  In the case of my machines I thought the static converters were a better choice.  They allow all functions including speed changes to be done with the original control panels, and without rewiring any machine components.  It takes all of 15 minutes to install a static converter, and they are all but bullet proof.



I also would prefer to USE a vari-drive, but I would prefer to REPAIR a belt-change.

Do not shy away from 3 phase machines. They produce more power and tend to cost less due to reduced demand in the hobbyist market.
I am also using a static phase converter. This one: 








						MAC05-3/4 - 5Hp HD MAC Static phase converter
					





					phaseconverterusa.com
				




I am entirely happy with it, though the fact that my mill is 2hp and lathe is 1hp complicates matters somewhat. I will probably get a second one to dedicate to the lathe. I also have a 7.5hp rotary phase converter. I HATE IT! It consumes more power than all of 3 of my 3 phase machines combined and WHINES INCESSANTLY! It was retired after my wife saw the first month's electric bill. It's for sale if anyone is interested.


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## MyLilMule (Feb 12, 2021)

To be precise, I am NOT against 3 phase, at all.

That being cleared up 

Are there specific BP model numbers (types?) that I would want to gravitate toward, i.e. how could I tell if it was vari-drive or has a dovetail ram by the model name or number? Or do I just need to look at pictures - those are hard to search on.

Are there BP clones out there that just suck for parts? That part is important to me, as I wouldn't shy away from a mill that was broken, but just needed some parts.

Or should I play it safe and stay BP brand only?


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## MyLilMule (Feb 12, 2021)

Here's an example of one that I found online. But I can't tell anything about it. Is there a serial number database?







Here's another. What's the downside of the ram vs dovetail for the head?


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 12, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> Here's an example of one that I found online. But I can't tell anything about it. Is there a serial number database?


This is a vari-drive machine, indicated by the circular speed dial and small adjusting wheel on the front of the head. By the time the vari-drive appeared, they were all dovetail rams.
I can't speak to serial numbers, nor parts availability for clones.

Unless you are in a particularly machine rich area, your decision will likely be determined by what is available within range.


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## MyLilMule (Feb 12, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> This is a vari-drive machine, indicated by the circular speed dial and small adjusting wheel on the front of the head. By the time the vari-drive appeared, they were all dovetail rams.
> I can't speak to serial numbers, nor parts availability for clones.
> 
> Unless you are in a particularly machine rich area, your decision will likely be determined by what is available within range.


I'm just outside of Cleveland, OH. Very machine rich. Most of the machines I have been looking at are in the $1500-$2500 range. But they come with nothing but the mill.


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## ttabbal (Feb 12, 2021)

It sounds like the round ram requires you to tram again if you move it. Dovetail does not. 

With vari-drive, I would want to test under power and adjust it through the speed range.


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## projectnut (Feb 13, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> I'm just outside of Cleveland, OH. Very machine rich. Most of the machines I have been looking at are in the $1500-$2500 range. But they come with nothing but the mill.


That's about the same price I paid 20 years ago for a 2J model that looks identical to the first one.  Mine was built in 1974 and didn't have the power feed on the X axis or a digital readout.  It did come with both metric and imperial scales on the axis dials, 1 broken end mill and a vice.

The round ram (M series machines) were only 1/2 to 1 hp.  The spindle was either #2 Morse, #7 B&S, or B-3 Taper.  They could only handle up to 1/2" end mills, and the quill travel was 3 1/2"

By comparison the 2J head (variable speed) series with the dovetail ram of that era came with a 1 1/2 hp motor.  The standard spindle was R8 with a capacity of 3/4".  They had a quill travel of 5", and power down feed.

Both could be purchased with a variety of table sizes ranging from 32" to 48".  The standard 9" x 42" 1 1/2hp 2J machines weighs in at about 2,200 lbs. 

Here's a link to a Bridgeport brochure from Sterling Machine.  It gives the detailed differences between the machines and types of heads.


			https://www.sterlingmachinery.com/media/brochures1/file/bridgeport-milling-machine-brochure.pdf


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## MyLilMule (Feb 13, 2021)

This brochure was a huge help. Thank you!


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## Investigator (Feb 14, 2021)

Some pretty good info to start with here:  http://www.lathes.co.uk/bridgeport/


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## HD Bee (Feb 17, 2021)

I have a 1963 SB 13” lathe and a 1984 BP 2J2 vari-speed mill. They both have 3 phase motors.
I run a rotary phase converter with a 10hp motor to make up the 3rd leg. They are all Delta motors.

I know a lot of guys like to run a VFD. I just don’t like the idea of running a motor designed for a certain rpm at a lower rpm. If you do you can start running into cooling problems with a big load on the motor. 

Watch Craigslits and ebay for good deals. It may take a little time to find a mill in good shape in your price range. But they are out there. I paid 4K for my BP with a Vice, DRO and power drawbar. 
I’m retired and use the machines for hobby and a little gunsmith work. They both work great for my needs.


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## Winegrower (Feb 17, 2021)

Regarding parts availability for BP clones, by definition the clones have the same parts hence the same availability.
I believe every part for Bridgeports is currently available, and if this is not correct, please update me?


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## MrWhoopee (Feb 17, 2021)

Winegrower said:


> Regarding parts availability for BP clones, by definition the clones have the same parts hence the same availability.


This is my belief too, but I was unwilling to stick my neck out and say it.


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## MyLilMule (Feb 18, 2021)

I've settled on getting a Bridgeport.

When I'm ready to get one, I'll probably keep a look out for a 2J head, and if not, a J head, on a series 1. It'd be nice to find one with a vice, power feed and a DRO already on it. I have plenty of time right now.

I'll probably start getting serious this summer and hope to find one by fall or spring of next year.

There's a gravel pad right next to my workshop that I would like to get concrete poured on first. It'll make moving anything that big into the shop so much easier.


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## Larry$ (Feb 18, 2021)

I've got a Jet 9x49, 2004. R8 spindle, VS head that I really like. I had to replace the belt but the rest of it looked fine. The VS system is really simple. 3 phase 3 hp, Jet X axis feed. I added a 3 axis DRO and a knee power feed.  Came with a poor vice a few endmills and an angle plate. Came out of a production shop with original manual and parts book. It weighs about 2400#s but I have access to a 5000# forklift. It seems like a well made machine and Jet is still making a very similar machine. I suspect it is just as good as a BP, certainly for my use. Don't know what it cost me as I bought all the equipment left in a factory that was closing out in Michigan. Sold off some of it on site.  Hired a rigger and a semi to haul the rest to Lincoln, NE. The mill was just one of the small items at the end that I bought along with several other things they just wanted to clear the place. So I don't know what it cost. Not much. What I thought was going to be the best deal of the lot turned out to be the worst. A large German CNC machine that simply cost too much to keep running. I'm currently scrapping it.


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## projectnut (Feb 18, 2021)

As for Bridgeport's and their clones in this case "clone" only implies the machines are similar in design and function.  They are not necessarily identical.  There have been a number of threads on other boards discussing the interchangeability of parts.  It pretty much comes down to Some Do, Some Don't.  Each clone manufacturer has either taken some short cuts or made some improvements.  

Your best source of information as to what parts fit various brands is H&W Machine Repair and Rebuilding.





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H&W Machine Repair and RebuildingSpecializing in Bridgeport Milling Machine Parts and Repairs Machine Parts and Accessories Link Services Link Machine Sales Link Since 1982 H&W Machine Repair & Rebuilding has been providing machinery sales, repairs, rebuilds, and parts for the metalworking...




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