# Lantern Tool Post revisited



## mickri (Oct 9, 2020)

I think that just about everyone with an older lather has one of these contraptions.  I do and it is a pain to use.  Yet sometimes you have to use it.  I recently had to dig mine out and use it to get into a tight corner.  Winky's Workshop recently made one and came up with a novel way to adjust the height of the tool bit.  An adjustable collar that you can screw to any height you need to get the tool bit on center line.  A whole lot easier to use than fiddling with a bunch of shims and rockers.  I added this to my project list.

This evening I got my lantern out and was thinking about the dimensions to make the collar.  I realized that the collar can only adjust through a small range to keep enough threads engaged to support the forces against the collar.  I could solve that by threading the body of the lantern.  No limit on the number of threads that would be engaged.  The threads on the collar would always be completely engaged.  Off to the lathe to check on my idea and discovered that the collar has to be held tight to the compound to keep the lantern from flopping around.  Back to brainstorming on this.  This is what I came up with.  Two collars.  One to hold the lantern tight to the compound and one to set the height of the tool bit.  One thing that I don't know is how hard would it be to thread the body of the lantern and another would threading the body negatively impact the strength.  I could always use very fine threads.

I know that I must have too much time on my hands.  But I have a narrow window to get things done before it will get to cold to be out in the garage.


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## NC Rick (Oct 9, 2020)

I saw that video and like the idea.  I do think your priorities are really messed up.  Use your limited time on providing environmental improvements to your work shop. To cold to work (play) out there? This must be resolved, what are you to do, shovel snow?


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## mickri (Oct 9, 2020)

The garage/shop is not insulated and a prior owner drywalled the garage.  Besides the drywall there are built in shelves and electrical lines run in conduit that would have to be removed and supports added to the roof framing to support a ceiling.  So it is a major job both in time and cost to insulate the garage.  I did some preliminary estimates to add insulation to the garage.  My estimate was several thousand dollars.   More than I wanted to spend. Then I have to find a source for heat in the winter and AC in the summer.  Might be able to run a duct from the house into the garage.  Unlike the garage the house is very well insulated and doesn't require much heating in the winter or AC in the summer to keep the house comfortable.  Mostly use the wood stove for heat in the winter in the house.  Do I heat and cool the house just to heat and cool the garage?  Electricity has gotten expensive where I live.  When I moved in 6 years ago electricity cost 18 cents per KWH.  It is now over 24 cents per KWH.  And that is the baseline rate.  Go over baseline usage and the rate jumps again.  Even with my limited AC use in the summer I go over baseline usage..  My electric bill jumps from $50 per month or less to $200 per month.  I am retired and live on a fixed income.  I just get by the way it is.

My priorities are not messed up.  I do what I have to do to make ends meet.  If that means I can't use my garage/shop in the summer heat or winter cold, so be it.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 9, 2020)

Mickri, if the garage is already sheeted, you can blow insulation in and be done with it quickly and easily.  Lowe's Depot sells blow insulation, and the chain equipment rental companies rent insulation blowers.  It's laughably easy, but you'll need a helper to empty bags of fluff into the hopper as you fill the voids in the walls.

Or else you can dress up in true Squaw Valley fashion, surely available in surplus at your local Goodwill:


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## mickri (Oct 9, 2020)

I don't live at the Squaw Valley ski resort.  That place is officially know as Olympic Valley.

I live 50 miles SE of Fresno off Hwy 180 that goes to Kings Canyon National Park.  The area is an old ranching community that first had a post office in the mid to late 1800's.  Have no idea how this area came to be known as Squaw Valley.


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## ThinWoodsman (Oct 9, 2020)

There's an old Machinist's Workshop article "Getting the most out of your Lantern Toolpost" that has some very good ideas. Most involve making tool-specific base plates: slots milled to-width for different toolbit sizes, optionally milling the slots at a vertical angle to not need the rocker. The idea being that you use the bases like QTCP toolholders. PM me if you want more details, I can dig out the article.


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## Norseman C.B. (Oct 9, 2020)

Hell, lantern posts are what I learned on and fer many setups perfect.
Though I do like to use the QCTP I keep the old school tooling handy......................


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## NC Rick (Oct 9, 2020)

mickri said:


> The garage/shop is not insulated and a prior owner drywalled the garage.  Besides the drywall there are built in shelves and electrical lines run in conduit that would have to be removed and supports added to the roof framing to support a ceiling.  So it is a major job both in time and cost to insulate the garage.  I did some preliminary estimates to add insulation to the garage.  My estimate was several thousand dollars.   More than I wanted to spend. Then I have to find a source for heat in the winter and AC in the summer.  Might be able to run a duct from the house into the garage.  Unlike the garage the house is very well insulated and doesn't require much heating in the winter or AC in the summer to keep the house comfortable.  Mostly use the wood stove for heat in the winter in the house.  Do I heat and cool the house just to heat and cool the garage?  Electricity has gotten expensive where I live.  When I moved in 6 years ago electricity cost 18 cents per KWH.  It is now over 24 cents per KWH.  And that is the baseline rate.  Go over baseline usage and the rate jumps again.  Even with my limited AC use in the summer I go over baseline usage..  My electric bill jumps from $50 per month or less to $200 per month.  I am retired and live on a fixed income.  I just get by the way it is.
> 
> My priorities are not messed up.  I do what I have to do to make ends meet.  If that means I can't use my garage/shop in the summer heat or winter cold, so be it.


While I believe my statement was correct, I hoped you would appreciate my jest.  I sincerely apologize for sounding like a smarty pants. Most anything I post is delivered with a grin.

have you considered renting a cellulose insulation blower?     All of our priorities are different and not one is better than the other.  I do understand.


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## matthewsx (Oct 9, 2020)

mickri said:


> The garage/shop is not insulated and a prior owner drywalled the garage.  Besides the drywall there are built in shelves and electrical lines run in conduit that would have to be removed and supports added to the roof framing to support a ceiling.  So it is a major job both in time and cost to insulate the garage.  I did some preliminary estimates to add insulation to the garage.  My estimate was several thousand dollars.   More than I wanted to spend. Then I have to find a source for heat in the winter and AC in the summer.  Might be able to run a duct from the house into the garage.  Unlike the garage the house is very well insulated and doesn't require much heating in the winter or AC in the summer to keep the house comfortable.  Mostly use the wood stove for heat in the winter in the house.  Do I heat and cool the house just to heat and cool the garage?  Electricity has gotten expensive where I live.  When I moved in 6 years ago electricity cost 18 cents per KWH.  It is now over 24 cents per KWH.  And that is the baseline rate.  Go over baseline usage and the rate jumps again.  Even with my limited AC use in the summer I go over baseline usage..  My electric bill jumps from $50 per month or less to $200 per month.  I am retired and live on a fixed income.  I just get by the way it is.
> 
> My priorities are not messed up.  I do what I have to do to make ends meet.  If that means I can't use my garage/shop in the summer heat or winter cold, so be it.


Lots of folks in the Midwest use woodstoves to heat their shops. If you're already using wood for the house maybe get a used one for your garage/shop. Sure, would be nice to have insulation but if you can extend your shop season for a couple of months with a used woodstove it might be worthwhile.

John


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## mickri (Oct 9, 2020)

I have thought about a woodstove.  No place to put one in my garage/shop.  it is packed full of stuff.  There are tree branches that extend over part of the garage roof too.  I also don't know if I could get a permit for a woodstove in the garage.  CARB considers fireplaces and woodstoves to be gross polluters.  Many areas in CA have banned new fireplaces and woodstoves and don't allow people to use existing fireplaces and woodstoves on some days.  There is even a law now that when a house sells if the existing woodstove does not meet current requirements it has to be removed and destroyed.

The only practical way to provide heat and AC is either to extend the house ducting into the garage or install a mini split.  No idea what it costs to run a mini split.  Can't be cheap with the cost of electricity these days.  I will live with what I have for the time being.  Thanks for the suggestion.


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## matthewsx (Oct 9, 2020)

We run a mini-split in our bedroom in Michigan, they're pretty darn efficient. I do realize the emissions limitations, just thought you might have been far enough out not to be subject to them.

John


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## brino (Oct 9, 2020)

Wow!

Is there anyway those outfits could be shredded and blown into a wall?
At least then we would not have to see them!

That's visual assault.

-brino


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## Bi11Hudson (Oct 10, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> Mickri, if the garage is already sheeted, you can blow insulation in and be done with it quickly and easily.  Lowe's Depot sells blow insulation, and the chain equipment rental companies rent insulation blowers.  It's laughably easy, but you'll need a helper to empty bags of fluff into the hopper as you fill the voids in the walls.
> 
> Or else you can dress up in true Squaw Valley fashion, surely available in surplus at your local Goodwill:



Going back to my days in "cool" climates, I would remind you (the poster of this) that "loud colors" are used for visibility in snow. Pink is a little "effeminate" for my taste, I would want bright red or "international" orange. In my case, an entire ship with a "fire engine red" hull working McMurdo Sound, Antarctica. A white hull in a snowy background is next to invisible. In "white out" conditions, the helicopter pilots couldn't see the ship.

As far as "blow in" insulation goes, I agree 120% with the idea. Do be concerned about warm weather conditions, some insulation is organic in nature and has insect problems. In the "far north", New Englandish, country, sawdust is a common insulation. I live south of the "termite line" so it is not practical here.

.


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## mickri (Oct 10, 2020)

I'd like to get back on topic.  I wonder how hard the body is.  A file will barely scratch it.  Anybody know if it is even machinable?


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## NC Rick (Oct 10, 2020)

mickri said:


> I'd like to get back on topic.  I wonder how hard the body is.  A file will barely scratch it.  Anybody know if it is even machinable?


Test it with a file in an inconspicuous place.  I would be surprised it is was very hard at all.  Carbide will cut anything a file will bight on from what I have experienced.


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## matthewsx (Oct 10, 2020)

If you're talking about your original it's probably heat treated. As long as you're experimenting why not get some stressproof stock and start from scratch?

John


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## pontiac428 (Oct 10, 2020)

Yeah, the original tool post is going to be haaard.  In the pre-war coal burning days, it was cheap to heat-treat.  Heat was in excess, and coal provided a good atmosphere to do it.

I'd look for a drop or remnant on fleabay.  Better yet, find an old truck axle, and turn a new one.


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## mickri (Oct 10, 2020)

I believe my lathe was made in the 70's.  The original owner was a local citrus farmer.  He purchased a bunch of charts that were still in the original mailing tube that came with the lathe.  The postmark is Nov. 7, 75.   The body will shine with a file but the file won't cut it.  I do have some carbide 60* tool bits.  I am not going to go to the trouble of making a new body.  I think that I will just make an adjusting nut similar to what Winky made.


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## NC Rick (Oct 10, 2020)

mickri said:


> I believe my lathe was made in the 70's.  The original owner was a local citrus farmer.  He purchased a bunch of charts that were still in the original mailing tube that came with the lathe.  The postmark is Nov. 7, 75.   The body will shine with a file but the file won't cut it.  I do have some carbide 60* tool bits.  I am not going to go to the trouble of making a new body.  I think that I will just make an adjusting nut similar to what Winky made.


I'M Surprised they are so hard.  I figured they would be tough, likely even forged.  If the file won't cut it, I'd me hesitant to try to machine it.  I have watched people shape HSS tool blanks with  carbide endmills on YouTube but that's above my pay grade for sure...


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## rock_breaker (Oct 11, 2020)

Many hobby machinists share your problem,  my case is somewhat different; there is over 200 tons of hay stored about 30 feet from my shop so any spark creating heating systems are out. Perhaps a duct system from your house attic to your garage may be somewhat of a solution. In any case more heat equals more dollars. I have extended my time in the shop in the winter through the Carhart Clothing Company and in the summer by a fan rigged so it can rotate to different areas is mounted in the ceiling. There is a huge difference in our cost of electricity, almost double.  Obviously no help at all here.
Have a good day
Ray


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## Larry$ (Oct 11, 2020)

CA electric rates are so high because? Lots of wind power, it's almost free, outstanding, well maintained distribution system.
Our rates are less than half of what you pay. 
The blow in insulation sounds good to me. 
I wanted to put up a detached garage to use as my retirement play pen. City won't allow it to be insulated.


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## NC Rick (Oct 11, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> CA electric rates are so high because? Lots of wind power, it's almost free, outstanding, well maintained distribution system.
> Our rates are less than half of what you pay.
> The blow in insulation sounds good to me.
> I wanted to put up a detached garage to use as my retirement play pen. City won't allow it to be insulated.


Boy, that would get me.  I'd have to overrule that.  How about "structural foam" or "fire resistant" fiberglass barrier?  There is always that pink foam art work you like so much.  All else fails, I'd be doing some midnight engineering.


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## mickri (Oct 11, 2020)

Why is electricity so expensive in California?  One factor is solar energy.  Electric companies in California have to buy electricity from customers with solar panels at the retail price up to the amount of the customer's usage.  Then the price paid for solar energy drops to the wholesale rate.  Last time I checked the wholesale rate was a little over 2 cents per KWH.  I think about 1/3 of all electricity in California is generated by solar.  It might be more.  If you blend the rate being paid for solar power with the wholesale rate the utility's wholesale cost for electricity jumps to around 9.5 cents per KWH.  As solar increases the utility's cost will continue to increase with corresponding increases in the electric rate.  This is an unsustainable business model.  To discuss this further would require talking about politics which is not permitted on this site.


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## NC Rick (Oct 11, 2020)

I own a business and can understand how ludicrous this business model is even though taxpayer likely do contribute to some of the infrastructure.  The mandate for all electric vehicles is going to be interesting.  Lost revenue from gas tax will have to be dealt with.  Just like in our shop builds, "there ain't no free lunch".

my own shop is not insulated   But is protected by thermal mass, some "passive solar" and partly underground. The Mitsubishi mini-split is very efficient. Also very quiet.  Sorry for the thread drift.  Shop builds and upgrades are among the most fun things to think about and do for me.

back to the tool post, you are building the threaded cup height adjuster I am assuming.  Can't that be made to fit over the "lantern" in its present shape?  Made like a set of nesting cups end to end with ID and matching OD threads?


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## matthewsx (Oct 11, 2020)

mickri said:


> Why is electricity so expensive in California?  One factor is solar energy.  Electric companies in California have to buy electricity from customers with solar panels at the retail price up to the amount of the customer's usage.  Then the price paid for solar energy drops to the wholesale rate.  Last time I checked the wholesale rate was a little over 2 cents per KWH.  I think about 1/3 of all electricity in California is generated by solar.  It might be more.  If you blend the rate being paid for solar power with the wholesale rate the utility's wholesale cost for electricity jumps to around 9.5 cents per KWH.  As solar increases the utility's cost will continue to increase with corresponding increases in the electric rate.  This is an unsustainable business model.  To discuss this further would require talking about politics which is not permitted on this site.


Here's some good news most missed this week, possible breakthrough in fusion energy energy.



			https://www.psfc.mit.edu/sparc
		


John


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## mickri (Oct 11, 2020)

The body of my lantern is round with a 1" OD.  I would make nesting cups that fit to the body as closely as I can make them.  Hopefully within a thou or two.  The OEM spacers for height adjustment are a really sloppy fit.  IMHO the sloppy fit of the OEM  spacers is one factor that contributes to lack of rigidity in a lantern tool post.

California has proposed and I believe Oregon has a test program where you would be taxed on the miles you drive supposedly in lieu of the tax on gasoline.  There are huge issues with this which would also require a discussion of politics.  Not going there.


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## Larry$ (Oct 11, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Here's some good news most missed this week, possible breakthrough in fusion energy energy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thorium reactors are an easier trick, proven in the 60?


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## matthewsx (Oct 11, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> Thorium reactors are an easier trick, proven in the 60?


Um, MIT?

Gotta think they know more than either of us....

As for lantern toolposts, I put mine in the drawer and haven't looked back since getting my QCTP. I can see a use for special situations and in that case having close fitting parts should make it work better. If yours is sloppy it probably makes sense to make new spacers which fit better. I'll bet that's what they did back in the day as the parts would have loosened up with use.

John


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## mickri (Oct 12, 2020)

Just for grins I decided to see if I could cut threads on the body.  Chose 20 tpi.  Why? I don't have a good answer as to why 20 tpi.  Didn't get very far.  First I tried HSS.  When the cutter hit the edge of the slot in the body the tip broke off.  Tried a carbide tool bit with the same result.  The carbide tool bit looked like it would have cut the thread if it hadn't been for the tip breaking off.  The broken tip did remove some material.


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## NC Rick (Oct 12, 2020)

Alternative energy is interesting to me from the technical aspects and not in the least from political implications.  Many folks seem the think EV is “ no emissions” which of course comes under the no free lunch rule 

a nice flat surface with good down pressure from the tool post should give a rigid tool mount with a loose fit around the tool post.  To my way of thinking.  I have been thinking of making one for a friend.

id like a lantern style for my lathe as I can see benefits When using HSS particularly when it comes to reducing time grinding,  the rocker is good for that though.


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## rock_breaker (Oct 12, 2020)

I am lost; of course having learned thread cutting in the worst manner,(self taught) hasn't helped. Having a threaded spindle makes cutting right handed threads towards the headstock and left handed from a groove near the chuck  mandatory. Considering the age of my lathe I make several passes of 0.005" or less and final fit by trying the nut several times. I also used the same number on the thread dial each pass.
I am at a loss when it comes to a "slot in the body", there is no doubt that I have a lot to learn about threading.
Have a good day
Ray


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## ericc (Oct 12, 2020)

Whenever I have trouble with hardened steel like that, I give it a little spark test.  I can imagine the metal giving a little squeak, since it knows what is coming next.  If it gives a simple medium carbon spark, you can hit it with a propane torch.  No need to get to austenitizing.  Just black or barely visible red will soften it considerably.  If you insist on hard, heat to critical and quench after you do the machining.

It might be possible to make a screw collar as well.  Basically, it would be a fat screw jack with a hole in the middle.


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## mickri (Oct 12, 2020)

The slot in the body isn't about threading.  It's a feature in a lantern tool post.  A lantern tool post has a slot that goes through the body of the tool post that the tool bits fit into.




As the lathe spins the body the edge of the slot in the body hits the top of the tool bit as tool bit cuts the thread.  Even though I was only taking a .002 cut the tip of the tool bit broke off when the edge of the slot hit the top of the tool bit. For a better visual I have tool bit sticking way into the slot.




Hope this clears up the confusion.  By the way I am totally self taught on all of this stuff too.


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## ThinWoodsman (Oct 12, 2020)

Can you pound some scrap aluminum or brass into the lantern slot to take care of that interrupted cut? The tool won't like the change in material much, but it likely won't break if you have a plug in the slot. Probably have to put the plug in the slot and turn it down to the lantern OD, at least where you're threading.


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## mickri (Oct 12, 2020)

This is turning into more of a project than I hoped it would be.  It is going on the back burner so to speak and probably won't get brought to the front until I need to use my lantern tool post.  Have too many over things that need to get done.


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## rock_breaker (Oct 13, 2020)

Thanks for the pictures and getting me up to speed. Sorry about my confusion.
Have a good day
Ray


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## Dabbler (Oct 13, 2020)

I've been observing this thread since day one, an I'd like to add that I still use my lantern tool post in my 12" lathe.  Especially for Al turning.  When I sell the lathe later this year, I'm keeping the lantern for one of my other lathes.


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## mickri (Oct 13, 2020)

When I get back to this project I will probably make a new body with the body threaded and much tighter tolerances in the slot for a better fit to the tool bits.  That's not going to be anytime soon.


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