# Chemical Safety Reminder



## extropic (Sep 25, 2021)

I'm writing this to relay a little of my circumstances, in the hope it will prevent others from being as nonchalant, as I have sometimes been.

I've recently been diagnosed with a tumor in my left kidney. The discussion so far is to have the entire kidney (and other bits) removed. This is all very recent. I won't meet the Urologist that will do the surgery for another two weeks.

My point here is to relay some of the questions/comments of the Urologist who diagnosed the tumor. If any of the issues apply, forewarned is forearmed. This is pretty real to me and I hope it helps you avoid such problems.

Q.   Do you or did you smoke?
A.   No.

Q.   Did anyone around you smoke?
A.   Mother, always and plenty.

Q.   What was your occupation?
A.   Aerospace (retired as Principal Mechanical Engineer).

I don't think I was very exposed to toxics there but, maybe. The Urologist commented on his experiences with many local (Los Angeles area) aerospace workers.
It's not hard to find examples of world class environmental damage at aerospace companies near his practice.

*I volunteered that I had been a gear head and a hobby machinist and could relay too many stories of being deep into unhealthy conditions without, what we now know to be, the proper PPE.*

They can't point to a "smoking gun" that has caused my tumor. Maybe it's genetic (he didn't ask me about family history) and unavoidable.

*Bottom line = I implore you to spend the bucks and take the time to always protect yourself with the proper PPE.*

Having a kidney removed is not going to be fun or a win in any way.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programing.    Take care.


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## Aukai (Sep 25, 2021)

Thank you for the reminder, at one time I was working for a crash fire dept. 1800 gallon fuel burns for practice, no breathing PPE in the proximity suits, I have lung issues now. So taking care now is important. Best wishes for your recovery.


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## rabler (Sep 25, 2021)

Best of luck going forward.  Keep us updated.  Cancer is scary, and definitive pinpointing of a cause is almost impossible.  The medical system of waiting for the next appointment or step can be aggravating.


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## mmcmdl (Sep 25, 2021)

I had to get a CT scan a few weeks back and have my return follow up with the Urologist this week . I may have passed a kidney stone but we'll find out for sure . As far as working without the proper PPE , I know all about it . Grinding fiberglass and carbon fiber parts on the drones years back when they were considered " nuisense (sp) dusts " by the company then working in a chemical factory for 15 years . Many of my former co-workers have passed at very young ages .


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## B2 (Sep 25, 2021)

I wish you guys the best.


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## cathead (Sep 25, 2021)

Most importantly, I wish you the best with your recovery.  

Now on to my thoughts on the subject at hand.  There are a lot of man made chemical agents
as well as natural ones to be aware of.  As far as aviation is concerned, the exposure to hexavalent
chromium is a major concern to me.  Conversion coatings are commonly applied to aluminum aircraft
parts to ward off corrosion.  Alodine is a trade name I am familiar with, I'm sure there are other brands as well.  
Primer paints containing zinc chromate also are a Chromium-6 hazard.  I'm only mentioning this because
I am familiar with the dangers.  Have you noticed that chrome car bumpers are pretty much gone?  That's
because workers were exposed to Chromium-6 and over time the auto industry phased it out.  Maybe the
aviation industry is following suit and reducing the use of these chemicals, I really don't know that although
I would hope so.  

We are all exposed to chemicals every day of our lives.  Some of it is easily avoided and some not.  
As an example, I have a neighbor that has a lawn service take care of his yard.  The air reeks of
weed killer( 2,4-D and or 2,4,5-T) when they treat the lawn for "weeds".  I must agree that a monoculture lawn
is a pretty sight but at what cost?  Is it not better to have a natural lawn without exposing ourselves to the hazards?
This dissertation could go on a long time as I can think of endless ways we have exposure to chemicals, however I
will stop at that.  

The bottom line is that we as humans are exposing ourselves sometimes unknowingly to all manor of unnecessary
dangers.  We are getting smarter but only slowly.  Chemical exposure is a sneaky thing as it can show up years
after exposure leaving the root cause unclear.  It's something to think about as we go through our daily lives.


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## francist (Sep 25, 2021)

Wow, that’s something I didn’t expect or want to hear. I really hope things work out okay for you. And thanks for the safety reminders too, all too easy to think we’ve got everything figured when really we’re just not paying enough attention. I wish I could have answered “no” to all the questions but I failed on the first one — smoked for nigh on 30 years. One of the stupidest if not foulest things I’ve ever done… 

-frank


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## extropic (Sep 25, 2021)

Thank you for the good wishes.

"This is OK", "I'll be alright". Those are the types of things that I've told myself many, many times. I was dealing with common things like carburetor cleaner, Stodard solvent, acetone and on and on. No rocket fuel or nuclear waste that I'm aware of. It's taken a long time for this to rear it's ugly head but I would have preferred to cross the finish line first.

A smarter attitude would have been "This may not be OK. I'd better use the PPE".

Here's hoping that you all work and play as smart as you can.


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## markba633csi (Sep 25, 2021)

I smoked for 30 years and really enjoyed it.  Quit 11 years ago.  Cold turkey. Wasn't as hard as I thought.
Now my only vices are German beer and good coffee.  And pizza. And steak. And lamb chops. And...
-M


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## hman (Sep 25, 2021)

My very best wishes to you, @extropic!  Cancer diagnosis is always frightening.  Mine was a lot less so than yours (tongue, treated successfully with radiation and chemo), but still quite an emotional trip.  I'm sure we all wish there were more we could do for you ... but I'm sure you'll have an extensive rooting section keeping you in our thoughts an prayers.


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## 7milesup (Sep 25, 2021)

Wishing you the best exotropic.   I religiously wear PPE now, but it is probably too little too late.


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## Dodgewade (Oct 21, 2021)

Urologist visits are typically not very pleasant. I've had an enlarged prostate for at least fifteen years. I cringe with every "yearly" visit that it will change to something worse. I hate to hear anyone mention the C word with their health. 
My father in law passed this past spring (heart attack) and he was 83. Got his prostate checked yearly. Stated doing that several years ago when he found out one in five will die from PC. Or I thing that was the Stat. There was maybe six or eight guys in his neighborhood that was talking about this and most of them decided it would be better to get checked. Now I don't have to explain where the prostate is or how it's checked. A lot of joke surrounding this subject. Regardless, one guy among them about flipped out, he wasn't going to a dangled Dr to let him stick his finger. .  ., you know the drill! He was the only one in this group that got prostate cancer and died from it before any of the others. 
I wish you guys the best and a speedy recovery with no other opportunities.


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## extropic (Oct 22, 2021)

I owe you all an update. The second Urologist, after further study of the CT images, said he wasn't certain that the images showed a tumor. The suspect area may be the result "layering". Layering, as I understand his explanation, is the result of the Contrast fluid being heavier (specific gravity) and settling toward the bottom of cavities. It has to do with the amount of time passed between the injection of the Contrast and the capture of the CT image(s).

The recommended step forward was to pass a camera into and along existing bodily structures and to take a look in the kidney (Ureteroscopy, I think). The viewing would be definitive, tumor or no tumor.

It's good news. No tumor. The kidney looks fine. The cause of the pain, that started all this, is undiagnosed at this time.
My opinion is, if it doesn't hurt, it ain't broken. If it ain't broken , don't fix it.
.
I'm willing to start a new thread describing my experience having a Ureteroscopy, if there is enough interest. Not because I want any reaction from you, but for your information, to use as you see fit. Maybe a PM is a better idea.

I've been quite healthy all of my life and so, I consider myself medically ignorant. This was all new to me. It could happen to anyone. I hope not.

When a serious medical problem seems to rear it's ugly head, I do some soul searching and would like to find myself innocent of potentially causative behavior. I didn't find myself innocent. I could have done better. 

That's what this thread is all about. You do better. I'm going to do better.

Thanks for all your good wishes.


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## Aukai (Oct 22, 2021)

I wouldn't mind hearing a rundown on it. I make sure the Dr.'s didn't loose a wedding ring before I leave.


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## B2 (Oct 22, 2021)

@extropic

I am happy for your out come.  Keep an eye on it.  

For you and others I will describe some things I learned about Prostate Cancer. (At least this is my understanding, but I am not an MD.)   You may not want to read this, but if you are a man you should! Ignorance can kill you.

For all of you other guys who maybe living in the dark:  I did considerable reading on this subject when I had to.  It turns out that the statistics are not great for any of us males.  The probability that a man has PC is roughly equal to his age!  That is, highly probable as you age.  Say you are 60, then the probability that you already have PC is 60%.  More years yields poorer odds!!!!   However, PC is very slowly growing and there is a good chance that if you are 90 and you have just developed PC, odds are that you will die of something else before the PC gets you!   Comforting thought!   (In the definition medical diagnostics terms is that this means that the cancer maybe "benign."  Benign does not mean that you do not have the cancer!  It simply means "good".)   

It turns out that while a PSA (prostate specific antigen--google it for the meaning.   You can also google to determine what the levels should be by age.) test is not definitive it is a good indicator of PC.  What is really important is the change in the PSA.  You should have it tested every year. (It is a simple blood test.) Then you should track the number over time.  In general it will increase with age, but if it goes up rapidly then make sure you see a doctor and they should recommend that you have more tests.  There is an out patient test where they sample the prostate and biopsy the samples to see if they can find cancer.  Since the samples are very small they may miss a cancer, but for sure it is not large yet.  (They have devise a draconian gun like instrument with a trigger for quickly grabbing these samples.  My analogy of this thing is a miniature "alien movie critter that takes a sudden bite".) The doctor will probably wait a while and then do another test and maybe keep sample testing every year or so.... along with more PSA tests.  Keep tracking them.  Remember PC usually grows slowly.    What you absolutely do not want to do is to wait until the cancer has spread to the lymph node system.  At that point you can have PC cells all over the body and treatment other than chemical is virtually impossible and the other cancers that may form can get you before the prostate is the problem.  

By the way, getting a false high PSA test can happen.  For example, a lurking infection some other cause....  This clearly causes anxiety for some folks.  Also, because the PSA test is not totally free of cost the insurance companies do not want to pay for it if they do not have too.  So now, unlike in the past, the recommendation is that when you get old you not have the PSA test any more!  Dumb!  That is just be ignorant about your status.  I personally would rather know if I have a problem than not know!  At least I can plan accordingly.  

Once PC is discovered there are basically three paths for dealing with it.  As expected none are great, but...

1) "Wait-ful watching" is the phrase that the medical folks use.  Dumb!  It means keep having tests and if they get really bad then make a different decision to either just let it runs its course..... or choose one of the remaining options.  (The idea is that if it is progressing really slowly, then maybe it is effectively "benign".)  The down side is either you do not know what is going on, but know that you have a problem.  This would be more of an anxiety trip for me than getting a false PSA test!)   But each to his own.  The other downside is the continual tests which will be the sampling test with biopsies.   While the sample biopsy tests are not terible there is some discomfort, some would say pain, and there is a possibily of infection given that they go up the anus to grab the samples.  

2) Radiation.  That is, radiate the hell out of the prostate and kill ALL the living cells.  Along with this hopefully the cancer cells are also destroyed.  While radiation can prove to be effective it is very hard not to damage surrounding tissue. The upside is that there is no cutting (surgery).  However, this area is full of nerve cells.  In fact, there are nerves that lie right on the prostrate.  Also the urethra runs from the blatter right through the center of the prostate.  There are two muscles that control urine flow and they have nerves that control them.  I think they are called the urethral sphincter muscles.  Basically that means that they squeeze the uretha.   One is at the bottom of the blatter (top of the prostate) and one is at the bottom of the prostrate as the uretha is headed towards the exit!   Their functions are different but both important.  The one at the top is voluntary (you do not think about it) and hold the uretha shut to keep the blatter from leaking.  The one at the bottom is involuntarily (you have to think about it to make it work) and it is the one that you use to stop the flow while it is already occurring.  In addition, there is a nerve that enables one to have an erection.  Who knows what other nerves maybe near by.....  So what is the down side of radiation treatment:  a) Possible loss of the abitity to have an erection.  b) Possibly incontenance of either type, or both.  Possibly lasting forever.    c) Damage to surrounding tissue.  For example, if the large intestine nerves are damaged and causing the intestine to fail to work properly can leading to blockeages which is very serious.  I am sure that there are probably other issues, not the least of which is that high dosage radiation can cause other forms of cancer.  However, I don't think the doctors will tell you all of the possibilites as they do not want to scare you off for any treatment. Too much raditaion or radiation to the wrong spot and you have problems.  Too little radiation and at least some of thethe prostate cells, and the cancer cells, remain alive! Nevertheless, it is an option that some folks take as they do not like the 3rd approach.  

3) Surgery.  Removal of the entire prostate by surgery.  Cut it out!   The upside is you know the prostate and the cancer cells inside of it are gone! The downside: a) Surgery.  A good surgen will NOT do this by laparoscopy (small incision in which instruments are inserted to do the internal cutting and extraction via pieces), which is in vogue, but is not as complete as a good old fashioned slit where the doctor can actually see what he is doing and removal of one or multiple large pieces.   b) if the PC cells had already left entered the lymph node system then they are still in the body.  (Of course that is also trued of radiation).  A good surgen will take several of the near by lymph nodes and run a biopsy on each be sure.  c)  A very good surgen can try to carefully move the nerves that lie on the prostate surface and possibly leave them undamage, but probably traumatized (maybe will heal).  This may minimize the probabily of the loss of being able to have an errection.  They call this a nerve sparing proceedure.   Likewise, for the nerve at the bottom of the prostate.  However, the current techniques do not allow for saving the voluntary nerve at the top of the prostate. Hence, this sphincter muscle will no longer function.   Hence, it would seem that incontenance is a sure thing. The Upside:  a) The involunetary sphincter muscle at the bottom of the prostrate will most likely be spared and still function.  Hence, by "thinking" stop the flow incontenance will be controlled.  With the proper excercises it is possible to convert the muscle to being voluntary and so one no longer has to think about it...much.  b) The large intestine nerves are unlikely to be damaged as they are surrounding tissue that is untouched.  No incontenance on this end.    If all has gone well the PC is gone and will no longer be an issue.  If you are not trying to have childern one does not miss it!  (Want to know its function: search on "what is the function of the prostate gland").  c) once the prostate is gone the PSA blood test should read 0.0!  So monitoring this will tell you if any of the cancer cells escaped into the node system.  If so the PSA reading will not remain at 0.0.  You have a sure way to tell.  

That is pretty much it.  For most cases the PC moves very slowly.  So if you have it take your time and find a really good doctor.  One who deals with the prostate radiation or removal on a daily basis if at all possible.  They are out there as this is a common decease.     There are a lot of urologist doctors who do a prostate surgery once in a while.  Not a good choice as they may not have the best skills and this definitely requires skills....  

Some machinist can make a very nice clean cut surface while others leave a lot of burrs.  Do you suppose this has a lot to do with experience and knowledge of the materials, tool, speed, and feed rates?

Dave


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## Aukai (Oct 22, 2021)

Thank you for taking the time to write this up.


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## rabler (Oct 22, 2021)

extropic said:


> I'm willing to start a new thread describing my experience having a Ureteroscopy, if there is enough interest. Not because I want any reaction from you, but for your information, to use as you see fit. Maybe a PM is a better idea.



Glad it came back clear!!
Similar procedure, cytoscopy, in June, due to radiation side effects.  





B2 said:


> That is pretty much it. For most cases the PC moves very slowly.


Unfortunately there are cases where it progress very rapidly (called "aggressive" in medical circles).  Per my oncologist at the Mayo clinic who only deals with prostate cancer, those cases are also commonly associated with a negligible if any increase in PSA.   I was a Gleason 9.  That's a 1-10 scale.  4 years out and PSA still 0.0 (technically <0.1).


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## B2 (Oct 23, 2021)

Surgery?


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## BROCKWOOD (Oct 23, 2021)

Glad it wasn't a tumor! I was a young man when they ran the camera up there. I asked if they would put me to sleep. His reply, For young men, yes. You may decide you want the anesthesia!

I'll also add that due to swelling, you may be strutting for a few weeks ;-)


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## mmcmdl (Oct 23, 2021)

I had my surgery yesterday . The original bleeding was caused by a polyp on my bladder . It was scraped out yesterday and I'm out of business for 2 weeks . Catheters are wonderful . I'd rather be down the basement driving rusty nails thru my pecker ! It'll come out Tuesday morning , and I go back for a follow up the 2nd of Nov . I did not think this was such a big deal but now I know . The only good thing was they put me out and I didn't feel anything ..............................................................well not until I had to pee for the first time !


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## 7milesup (Oct 24, 2021)

B2 said:


> @extropic
> 
> I am happy for your out come.  Keep an eye on it.
> 
> ...


Excellent write up Dave.  Oh, it is bladder


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## B2 (Oct 24, 2021)

Thanks @7milesup .  If blatter/badder was the only miss spelled word it would be great!  If you look again you will find lots of them. Typos too. Sorry.  Hopefully the thoughts get through.   They did not teach us how to spell when we were young.  In fact, I did not learn about vowels until I was in the 5th grade! They were running a new "teaching" experiment and we were the test subjects.  The only ones who could read were the ones that came into 1st grade already reading! This was also the year that they figured out that I could not see the black board, because I needed powerful glasses!  Anyway, the spelling and typos have only gotten worse as I age and now I can only see half of what I am writing!


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## 7milesup (Oct 24, 2021)

Oh no, there were a "few" more.  I just found "blatter" to be somewhat amusing.    Somewhat yankin' yer chain.

I enjoy your narratives on the numerous topics in this forum.   Your writings are insightful and in-depth.   Continue on!!

Reason for edit:  I aparaently can't form a sentenz.


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## Aukai (Oct 24, 2021)

I can't spell worth beens either


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## rwm (Oct 24, 2021)

I was always a great speler.
R


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## B2 (Oct 25, 2021)

7milesup said:


> Oh no, there were a "few" more.  I just found "blatter" to be somewhat amusing.    Somewhat yankin' yer chain.
> 
> I enjoy your narratives on the numerous topics in this forum.   Your writings are insightful and in-depth.   Continue on!!
> 
> Reason for edit:  I aparaently can't form a sentenz.


Thanks again! Your blattering and fladdering comments were a pladderful.   But seriously, when claddering about Prostate issues ... Please be careful what "chain" yer yankin' !  We would not want excessive spladdering.


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## B2 (Oct 25, 2021)

rwm said:


> I was always a great speler.
> R


Robert,  Beautiful oil cans!


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