# Convert a manual grinder to auto feed?



## Flyinfool (May 7, 2019)

Anyone ever done this?
I have an ancient B&S No.2 Surface grinder.
These pics are are of it before I took it home and hauled it into the basement.
I have since cleaned everything, and replaced every bearing.
I would like to convert it from full manual to a auto feed in both the X and Z. The only thing I have found so far is a few old posts on various sites where someone said they did it, and a couple of YouTube vids of converted machines with no actual details.

Anyone have any details of how this was done?
I can figure out a way to make the table go back and forth at a variable speed, that will be the easy part. But I still have no clue how to make the table traverse a set variable distance at the end of each stroke.


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## JimDawson (May 7, 2019)

You would do this by installing steppers or servos on the axes and controlling it like a CNC machine, actually make it a CNC grinder.  Eventually I'm going to get around to doing mine, as soon as I get another project out of my way.

Theoretically you could hang a small 3 phase motor on the X and control it with a VFD and a couple of limit switches and a relay.  You need something to be able to accelerate and decelerate at each end so it doesn't try to start & stop instantly.


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## Flyinfool (May 7, 2019)

If I am going to do a CNC conversion it will be on my mill or lathe first.
The table drive is the easy part, how do I drive the traverse and tine it to the end of the table stroke and do it all mechanically. Right now I have a lot more time and material than money. How do the mechanical auto feed machines that are out there do it?


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## JimDawson (May 7, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> tine it to the end of the table stroke and do it all mechanically.



That's a great question.  Maybe something like the ratchet feed mechanism used on a shaper?


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## Toolmaker51 (May 8, 2019)

Why? An 18" or 24"+ maybe. I can't imagine working out a .031 internal snap ring tool without full manual control; in each of 3 axis. Full auto is suitable for plate work, consequently bigger machines.


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## JimDawson (May 8, 2019)

Toolmaker51 said:


> Why? An 18" or 24"+ maybe. I can't imagine working out a .031 internal snap ring tool without full manual control; in each of 3 axis. Full auto is suitable for plate work, consequently bigger machines.



Why would you not do one with full manual or full CNC control and be able to select which axes you want to control by what method for any given setup.


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## MikeInOr (May 8, 2019)

A stepper motor controller can be really cheap.  Hit a button and the motor advances x number of steps.  Without having to have a computer or fancy micro controller... if that is not your thing... a cheap stepper controler plus motor seems like it would be the easiest path to go.

Another thought would be a automobile window motor on a timer.  Press a button and the timer runs for .8 seconds.  Adjust the on time for the increment you need.  Look at timer relays for a pretty easily adjustable one component timer solution.

I use a timer relay on my rotary phase converter to energize the startup caps for 1.3 seconds then turn them off.  The actual on time is adjustable with a knob on the top of the relay.


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## Flyinfool (May 8, 2019)

The stepper motor and a switch sounds interesting. For both axis. But I know nothing about them or what I would need to make it work. I am good, and comfortable working with electronic stuff, I just have zero experience with stepper motors or programing. So wiring and setting it all up would be the easy part. All the electronic stuff I make (making small PCBs to do different things is another of my hobbies) is still old fashion logic chips. Having the stepper motors on the machine would also be a big step toward someday going full CNC with it. It would also give me some experience toward the eventual goal of converting my mill and lathe to CNC.


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## JimDawson (May 8, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> The stepper motor and a switch sounds interesting. For both axis. But I know nothing about them or what I would need to make it work. I am good, and comfortable working with electronic stuff, I just have zero experience with stepper motors or programing. So wiring and setting it all up would be the easy part. All the electronic stuff I make (making small PCBs to do different things is another of my hobbies) is still old fashion logic chips. Having the stepper motors on the machine would also be a big step toward someday going full CNC with it. It would also give me some experience toward the eventual goal of converting my mill and lathe to CNC.



I could write a whole book on the subject, but stepper motors are the most common method to driving machine axes in the home shop.  Relatively inexpensive and simple to set up and control.  The most common method is to buy a kit something like this example https://www.ebay.com/itm/USAFREE-2A...073160?hash=item4af7914708:g:E4IAAOSwCypWnd0Q 

In its simplest form about the only thing that is needed with the above kit is a computer and Mach3 CNC software.

Since you already have digital electronics experience, building your own controller for a simple application would be pretty easy.  The drives have 2 inputs; pulse and direction.  The speed is controlled by a pulse train with a 50% duty cycle, the direction is just Hi/Lo. The inputs to the drive is TTL square wave.  For a very simple application a couple of 555 timers and a bit of logic would do.  You would only need to add some limit switch and on/off switch, and speed pot inputs to your circuit.  The actual control of the stepper motor is all handled in the drive.


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## MikeInOr (May 9, 2019)

I have used the Parker CompuMotor stepper controllers and have been very pleased with them.  They used to cost several thousand dollars but can be picked up for a hundred bucks or so on ebay.  The Compumotor will have everything you need in one package... power supply, stepper drivers, PLU (programmable logic unit) and a variety of built in I/O lines.  They WILL require some programming to make work and they have their own ladder logic type language.  Programming the controllers I used required a computer with an RS232 serial port.  They have some custom programming/configuration software, I just used a hyper-terminal session.  After the PLU is programmed the controller is stand alone... i.e. you do not need to have it connected to a computer to run it.

I used the SX6 and SX8 CompuMotor stepper controllers... they have the same PLU, the SX8 is just a higher power drive for controlling some REALLY big stepper motors.

Another route (a bit more modern) would be assembeling an Audrino or Raspberry pi system with a stepper controller, appropriate power supply and programming it appropriately.  This would be quite a bit more flexible but quite a bit more work.... the Compumotor is pretty much plug, program, and play.

If you are going to CNC your grinder, mill and lathe JimDawon's suggestion above makes a lot of sense to me!

P.S. I am also an amature electronic hobbiest... there is quite a bit to be said for good old flipping and flopping!


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## Flyinfool (May 9, 2019)

I spent all of yesterday and most of today so far researching Steppers drivers and controllers. There are so many options that it makes my poor little brain spin.

I did find a lot of Audrino solutions, but I am worse that terrible at programming. The closest that I come to programing is playing around a bit with LISP to create functions in AutoCAD.

Now don't this look like just what the Dr ordered? 7500 Rupee is equal to USA ~$106.74








						2-Axis Surface Grinder Controller
					

Specifications                  20x4 alphanumeric LCD        16 bit controller        Two Opto-isolated pulse Inputs             Easy to use Menus




					www.tinycontrols.com
				




I just need to add the motors, drivers and power supply, which are also available from the same place as a matched set. Then make a bunch of brackets and pulleys to fit it all together.

I have a digital torque meter that I borrowed from work, this weekend I will see if I can hook it to the the SG to measure just how much torque it takes to move things, so that I have an idea of just how much stepper motor I need for each axis. In the x my biggest concern is the starting and direction reversing for the x axis. the table moves asy enough that just the weight of the handle on the crank will always move the table while the handle drops to the bottom of rotation.


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## JimDawson (May 9, 2019)

That's a cute little controller, never seen one before.  Too bad they are out of stock, I would buy one just to play with it.

Steppers produce maximum torque at near zero RPM, and the torque drops off rapidly as the RPM increases.  At a constant speed, it sounds like almost anything would drive your table, but you need to accelerate/decelerate the mass at the ends of the stroke.  When accelerated too rapidly, steppers will magnetically decouple and just growl at you.

Steppers are rated by Holding Torque. When specing steppers I normally go way over the theoretical torque requirement (3 or 4 x), and try to run the stepper below about 600 RPM.  You can always turn down the power on a oversize stepper, but it's pretty hard to get more power out of an undersized motor.  Having said that, in a NEMA 34 stepper, going over around 1300 oz/in is rather futile because you lose too much performance in the higher RPM ranges because of the steeper torque curve.

In all cases, use a power supply that outputs near the maximum rated voltage of the drive.  I normally only buy drives that will take 70-80 VDC input.  All drives are not created equal, some work better than others and this is normally proportional to the price.  Leadshine and Wantai on EBay seem to be good quality mid-range products.  Automation Technologies also seems to have good products.  Automation Direct sells top of the line steppers and drives but they are expensive compared to the others.


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## Dabbler (May 9, 2019)

What a great idea!  I have no interest in CNC'ing my mill, but I did consider briefly putting a digital lead screw on my lathe.  On a surface grinder, doing even a single axis (for the long feed or the Y feed - would be a substantial improvement!


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## Flyinfool (May 9, 2019)

I did send them an email to ask when or if this SG controller will be back in stock and to see if they give package discounts if I buy a complete controller, 2 drives and 2 motors package. Their drives will take 18-80VDC.
For power supply I do already have a 24V 100A, 36V 50A, and a 48V 50A regulated power supplies that will hold those amp outputs all day.


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## MikeInOr (May 9, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> I spent all of yesterday and most of today so far researching Steppers drivers and controllers. There are so many options that it makes my poor little brain spin.
> 
> I did find a lot of Audrino solutions, but I am worse that terrible at programming. The closest that I come to programing is playing around a bit with LISP to create functions in AutoCAD.
> 
> ...




Your previous posts had me curious about what is available for stepper controllers these days.  That certainly looks like the PERFECT controller for what you want to do!  I came across quite a few stepper controllers just looking around to satisfy my curiosity... I think that is the first one that I have seen in the ~$100 and under area that actually HAS A MANUAL YOU CAN DOWNLOAD.  Looking at the manual it looks like that controller was made almost specifically for what you want to do.

For your application a toothed belt between the stepper and table handle shaft might be a consideration.  It would allow you to gear up to get some mechanical advantage.

P.S. I didn't even see the "2 Axis Surface Grinder Controller" title until now... it was designed to do exactly what you want to do!


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## Flyinfool (May 9, 2019)

I was thinking that I would have to use a belt drive for both axis so that I can keep the handles. I do not want to give up the manual option for those quickie jobs. That is the ONLY, SG specific controller that I have seen anywhere in my 2 days of looking. In India they are all in bed right now. I hope that by tomorrow they will answer my email and let me know if it is just out of stock and when it might be back in stock, or if it has been discontinued and gone forever. 

If discontinued, I may see if I can buy the design and make my own. I have done that a couple times with discontinued products that I want. I once bought an injection mold for a discontinued item for the scrap value of the mold, $15. I found a local molder that needed some fill in work that would set it up and run me 50 parts for not much more than the product originally cost. I was able to sell enough of the parts to at least break even on the whole deal.


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## MikeInOr (May 9, 2019)

I look forwards to hearing the outcome!  Hopefully they have one on the back bench somewhere that they can sell you.


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## Flyinfool (May 9, 2019)

As close as I can guess at the moment, is that it will be under $400 for all of the electronics parts for 2 axis (using their biggest motors and drivers) if I get it all from the same place. Getting it all from the same place kind of insures that it will all play together and all the connectors will match. I know I can source the drivers and motors for less but then have to mess with getting it all to work together.

I am still sore from the last stint on the grinder spinning the wheel back and forth for 2 straight days. I will also raise the whole machine up about 3.5 inches so I do not have to be bent over as much while working on it. But as long as the sore back persists it will keep me motivated to automate.

If this all works out I will try to do a build thread. I am not good at build threads, I get on a roll and forget to take pics along the way.


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## Dabbler (May 9, 2019)

Something to be aware of.  If you manually move the motor using he handwheels through the belt, it generates EMF that can damage some controllers.  A friend of mine bought a CNC converted mill, and he can't use handwheels at all because of this.


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## Flyinfool (May 9, 2019)

I had not thought about that but I can fully agree. I will have to be sure that I have some form of protection in place.


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## JimDawson (May 9, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> I had not thought about that but I can fully agree. I will have to be sure that I have some form of protection in place.



I would mechanically decouple the motors for hand use, even with them electrically disconnected, there is still an annoying amount of turning resistance and cogging.  Some time ago I built a zero backlash 5 pin flex coupler that worked great for the application.  A bit of modification to the design would make a great coupler for a surface grinder drive.  Just mount the motor on a sliding mount and slide it out of engagement when not in use.  I'm going to use this method on my surface grinder when I get around to CNCing it.


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## Flyinfool (May 10, 2019)

I was not sure if I wanted mechanical or electrical decoupling. I did not know that the motors have a lot of cogging. I agree, that would be annoying.

So once I figure out what motors I need and can start designing the mounting, I will also be working on ideas for a mechanical decouple.


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## Flyinfool (May 10, 2019)

Well I did some checking with my torque meter today. Unfortunately this meter does not go down far enough to check my SG. This meter was bought for measuring in the 200-250 Lb/Ft area, the lowest it goes is to 45 In/Lb. 45In/Lb is equal to 720 In/oz. Most of the stepper motors list the torque in in/oz Now just to get on the scale I even tried yanking as hard as possible in the reversing of direction to get as much inertial load as possible. Still did not make it onto the scale. the only way I could get onto the scale was when I ran it hard against the stops and it still took an uncomfortable amount of pressure to get that reading.

I just did some looking around online and I can not find a resonably priced torque meter for less than $1000 that can measure anything less than720 in/oz unless it is WAY less and to low to be of use. I found one that had a range of 0-18 in/oz.

On the bright side, I guess that means I did a good job cleaning and rebuilding this machine that it moves so freely.

In the x direction just the weight of the handle on the wheel will always have the handle drop to the bottom just from the wheel being out of balance. I may have to add a counter weight to that thing to balance it so that the table can stay where I put it. it is annoying to always have it move to where it wants to go.


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## JimDawson (May 10, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> In the x direction just the weight of the handle on the wheel will always have the handle drop to the bottom just from the wheel being out of balance.



This reminds me, you will want to create a method of disconnecting the handwheels when under motor power.  You'll break a wrist if that handle comes around and smacks you.  My mill has folding handles, but on the grinder you will want to remove the rotating mass of the handwheel.


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## Flyinfool (May 10, 2019)

Normally when it is to good to be true, it is to good to be true. So what am I missing in this deal? What is the catch. Seller has a feedback of 2800 and 100% positive.
$32.25 with free shipping, for a kit with 4 each of, 1600 oz NEMA 34 motors, drivers and power supplies and a parallel breakout board?????








						Free Ship! 3Axis Nema34 Stepper Motor 878OZ-In DUAL SHAFT Driver DM860A 7.8A CNC  | eBay
					

Dual shaft nema 34 step stepper motor 878oz. Holding torque when DM860A run under high speed is also significantly higher than the other two-phase driver, what’s more, the positioning accuracy is also higher.



					www.ebay.com
				




Yes these motors are way over kill for my grinder, but the 2 extra should be good for either the lathe or the mill later down the road. IS there anything bad that will happen from to big of steppers? Other than just using a lot more power than needed?

If those of you that know more about this than I do (that is almost everyone here) think this is a real deal, I'll jump on a set just to have and call it a start. Then I can start designing parts to make it work.


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## Flyinfool (May 10, 2019)

Jim removing the handles is another good point.


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## JimDawson (May 10, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> Normally when it is to good to be true, it is to good to be true. So what am I missing in this deal? What is the catch. Seller has a feedback of 2800 and 100% positive.
> $32.25 with free shipping, for a kit with 4 each of, 1600 oz NEMA 34 motors, drivers and power supplies and a parallel breakout board?????
> 
> 
> ...



You can always turn down the power, that's selectable at the drive.  I can't figure out if that price is a typo or a closeout sale.


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## JimDawson (May 10, 2019)

I just ordered a set, never hurts to have some extra, cheap hardware around.  We'll see if I actually get them.  I used PayPal for a little extra buyer protection in case things go south.  That is really less than the shipping charges.


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## Flyinfool (May 10, 2019)

OK, so I ordered one too, they are going fast. Now I also have fingers crossed. Heck the power supplies are worth that if they work.

Debating IF I should order another so that I have enough steppers for the SG the mill and the lathe.........


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## MikeInOr (May 10, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> Normally when it is to good to be true, it is to good to be true. So what am I missing in this deal? What is the catch. Seller has a feedback of 2800 and 100% positive.
> $32.25 with free shipping, for a kit with 4 each of, 1600 oz NEMA 34 motors, drivers and power supplies and a parallel breakout board?????
> 
> 
> ...




Don't worry about this add... I just bought the last two.


LOL... that is a good deal and sometimes a good deal does come along.  Sometimes a good deal does actually come along WHEN you actually need the item!  I will risk the $33 on that.  ebay has a good return policy.  When things haven't shown up I have gotten my money back in the past.


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## Flyinfool (May 10, 2019)

OK so I guess I will not get a set for my other machines........


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## Flyinfool (May 10, 2019)

Seeing this always worries me, they claim to be USA based but the payment went to 刘莉萍. Translates as Chinese to Liu Liping

Got my PP email......


> You sent a payment of $32.25 USD to 刘莉萍


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## MikeInOr (May 10, 2019)

Considering that they were selling these for $512 I am betting the price was a typo.  I think there is a very good chance that they will try to back out and not honor the deal... in which case we will get out money back.  In any case, if they don't show up I am confident we will get our money back through paypal/ebay.

Sorry to swoop the last two out from under you... they were not going to last long.


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## Flyinfool (May 10, 2019)

From the time I posted that link it only took 38 minutes for all 13 to be sold.

I am not real upset with the last 2 vaporizing before I could get one more. My budget is a bit tight right now (just had a brand new pace maker planted) and and I will need all of the toy budget to get the rest of the parts for this project. the other 2 machines will be real expensive to convert to CNC. Ball screws ain't cheap.

Mine is expected by May 20. So we shall see.
Now if that place with the SG controller will get back to me, AND they are going to make more of those, Then I think I have all the electrics, less small odds and ends like switches, connectors and wire. Then I just have to design and make the mechanics and I will have my AUTO FEED Surface Grinder.

The only thing that I see missing from that controller is an option for dressing the wheel. I guess I will still have to manually lock the table and dress the wheel. I can live with that.
If I get the auto feed working, then I do not have to make the blocks to raise the machine up 3.5 inches. I wont be standing there cranking wheels for hours at a time killing my back. Now just pushing buttons and come back later.

The other BIG advantage to automating the SG is that I am NOT supposed to get close to the mag chuck with my pace maker, This will let me stay a safe distance away.


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## JimDawson (May 13, 2019)

I just received this message from Longs Motor.  I think I'll sit on it for a few days and see what happens.




*New message from: longs_motor (2,807
	

)*
* Hello Dear 
Thanks for your messages very much.
We are so sorry for that the price was a big mistake,can we refund you now?
Regards
Cherry*


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## Flyinfool (May 13, 2019)

I got the same message.


*Hello Dear
 Thanks for your messages very much.
 We are so sorry for that the price was a big mistake,can we refund you now?
 Regards
 Cherry*



Oh well, it would have been nice. I thought it sounded too good to be true.

Oh well, back to searching for another deal.


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## Bob Korves (May 13, 2019)

Off your current topic, I have a B&S 2L surface grinder, one of the last ones made in 1946.  It has power feeds in both X (table traverse) and Z (in and out cross feed) axes.  The spindle is belt drive (126" long belt over 5 pulleys and a counterweight).  The power feeds are entirely mechanical, via an incredibly complicated bunch of machinery that still works, driven by a separate flat leather belt.

I found the #2 B&S grinder in the 1904 B&S catalogue








						1904 Catalogue : Brown & Sharpe Mfg. Co. : Machinery and Tools : Brown & Sharpe Manufacturing Co. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					

488 p., illus., 14.0 cm, trade catalog



					archive.org
				



same basic machine, set up for line shaft belt power.  
I do not know how much older than 1904 they were making the #2.   If you can find the serial number of the machine, I can try to help you with the year of manufacture of your #2.  On my 2L the serial number is stamped onto the top of the spindle mounting vertical sliding block, on the right side pad for bolting down the magnetic chuck to the table, and on the right side of the base casting above the access hole.  Yours may be different...

There is good information on the #2 on http://vintagemachinery.org/, including several manuals for different vintages of the #2 grinder.

Hope this helps...

Question:  What is the vertical thing mounted on the left side of the vertical sliding column of your #2?


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## MikeInOr (May 13, 2019)

Yep!  I received the same message.

The most we will be able to do is leave negative feedback for the seller... there is no way we are going to get the seller to send us the steppers for the offered price.  Ebay has even made it difficult if not impossible to leave negative feedback in such cases.

I am just going to accept my money back and forget about it.  Even though I would have loved to have those steppers at the price.


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## JimDawson (May 13, 2019)

MikeInOr said:


> Yep!  I received the same message.
> 
> The most we will be able to do is leave negative feedback for the seller... there is no way we are going to get the seller to send us the steppers for the offered price.  Ebay has even made it difficult if not impossible to leave negative feedback in such cases.
> 
> I am just going to accept my money back and forget about it.  Even though I would have loved to have those steppers at the price.



I'm thinking about pushing it a bit and see what happens.  Longs is a pretty big company so they can take the hit without starving to death, but the CEO is not going to be happy


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## derf (May 13, 2019)

I had 2 B&S #2's over the years and only one of them had enough of the original parts to make the auto feed work. Like Bob said, it is incredibly complicated and purely mechanical, and ran by flat belts. I found that I spent more time maintaining the drive system than actual grinding. I found a Reid 618 a few years ago that was all manual, but in a lot better shape and direct drive, a modern machine with better bearings and less complicated.
 I added a traverse drive with a 90 volt dc motor and controller. The  stroke is controlled by a reversing limit switch and adjustable stops.









The reversing switch has a retractable roller to disengage the switch away from the rollers to move the table past the stops.
 The biggest difference between this machine and the B&S is that the table is driven with a timing belt versus a rack and pinion. This makes for less shock when changing directions, especially when it is driven from the original handwheel. Most commercial grinders that have a power feed on the traverse use hydraulics to drive the table instead of mechanical means.


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## Flyinfool (May 13, 2019)

My B&S has a chain drive for the table. Just a little heavier than a bicycle chain. I will have to go SERNO hunting.


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## Flyinfool (May 13, 2019)

I wonder just how many of us it would take to submit inquiries about the Tiny Controls TNC-G10 Surface Grinder Controller to get the fire lit for them to get it back in stock. Getting this controller or something similar would get my fire lit to move on with the stepper or servo conversion. From my research so far setting up the motors drivers and power supplies will not be an issue. It is the controller. Hardware wise it would not be all that hard to do something like an Arduino processor and that could even have a nice touch screen GUI. BUT I am worse than terrible at writing software. I know NOTHING about how to do it or even where to start. If I could just buy this box ready to go, that would be wonderful.


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## JimDawson (May 13, 2019)

I would give you the software to run it, but I think the controller and other hardware required that would run the software would be way out of budget.


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## MikeInOr (May 13, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> I'm thinking about pushing it a bit and see what happens.  Longs is a pretty big company so they can take the hit without starving to death, but the CEO is not going to be happy



OK, I will hold off on letting them off the hook.  Please let me know how it turns out?


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## Flyinfool (May 13, 2019)

I was thinking of contacting them and whining to see if that helps.


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## Flyinfool (May 13, 2019)

*New message from:            longs_motor (2,807
	

)*
*the best price for the 4axis kit is 525USD (including shipping and TAX)*



Not much of a deal from the List price of 550.


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## JimDawson (May 13, 2019)

That doesn't surprise me.  I'm going to wait another day and send them an email.


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## Joe in Oz (May 14, 2019)

That Tiny Controls setup looks like a great idea.
I too have an old B&S No2  manual surface grinder that I would like to automate a bit.
So far I've fitted a 10W 24VDC motor to the vertical feed for faster rough positioning of the grinding head, because tuning the hand wheel hundreds of turns between different height jobs got old pretty quickly....
I was thinking about the VFD/3-phase gear motor route for the longitudinal feed too.... but using two stepper motors for both table axes sounds MUCH better.
I would certainly be interested in helping the Tiny company reconsider stocking the item!
I'll write to them now.
Cheers,
Joe


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## MikeInOr (May 14, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> That doesn't surprise me.  I'm going to wait another day and send them an email.



"You don't honor your ebay auctions?  I thought you were a reputable company.  If you cancel this purchase I will leave negative feedback."

I will let you guys know what their reply is.


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## Flyinfool (May 16, 2019)

I guess they did not like any of my offers, I got this email today



> 刘莉萍 refunded $32.25 USD from your purchase on May 10, 2019.


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## MikeInOr (May 16, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> I guess they did not like any of my offers, I got this email today



I have to wait 7 days before I can leave negative feedback.


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## JimDawson (May 16, 2019)

Yup, I got the refund also.


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## Flyinfool (May 16, 2019)

At the other end of this. It has now been a full week since I tried to contact Tiny Controls about the TNC-G10 Surface Grinder Controller. Has anyone else tried to contact them about this? It may take enough interest being shown to get them to run a batch. I have no clue how many inquiries it will take to get them moving. I may try calling them (Hopefully someone speaks English) but they are 10.5 hours ahead of us in time, so I will have to call late at night to get them durring "normal" business hours. I did send them another contact today. Last time I used the link on the page for the controller for specific info, this time I used the general "Contact Us" link. It is time to start rattling cages.


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## JimDawson (May 16, 2019)

One of these might be an option.  I know nothing about them, but look like they would work.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=ddcsv2.1&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=7


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## rowbare (May 17, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> One of these might be an option.  I know nothing about them, but look like they would work.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=ddcsv2.1&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=7


They seem to be a decent little controller. There are a couple of threads about them at MadModder. One fellow there has modified the firmware. I have one sitting in a box but haven't gotten around to doing anything with it yet. With the pendant, it would be easy to do adhoc grinding jobs.

bob


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## Flyinfool (May 21, 2019)

I think I am getting very close to totally giving up on that nice looking Surface Grinder controller from Tiny Controlls. For 2 weeks now I have been trying to contact the company and have gotten no signs of life. I cave used their contact page, sent emails, and even trid calling at 11:00 am their time, midnight here. If they are that hard to contact when I am wanting to give them my money, how bad will it be if I have questions or issues down the road?

So starting on a new plan.
Since I have never played with any of this stuff I am going to get a pair of the cheapest steppers and drivers I can find just to play with. I know that I will likely never have any use for them, but they are cheap and if I burn something up, I am not out much.
For control I am going to get one of these cheap and dirty controllers for the table back and forth. That is about all it does. It has an ON/OFF button, a speed control pot and a direction button. I can pull the pot and the 2 switches off the board to put then on a panel and the direction switch at the ends of the table travel. That should get the table going back and forth with variable speed. If I mount the switches to the bumpers then that will set the table travel distance. Then I just need a cheap and dirty solution to advance the cross feed every time the switch at the end of table travel is hit. I was looking at this programmable 1 Axis controller for that part as it has some programability so I can set the number of steps to advance every time the button gets pushed at the end of table travel. These 2 controllers should be a fairly inexpensive option for all the control a grinder needs.

Once I am satisfied that this works as I want it to then I can make a final decision as to size and power for the actual steppers and drives needed. I still do not have a clue as to just how much torque is needed for this job. Everything I read is that to big of a motor is bad and to small of a motor is even worse. My over kill mentality want to get the biggest motor that will fit. But this time that is not the right thing to do.


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## Dabbler (May 21, 2019)

This should help you: 

 Stepper motors have more torque than similarly sized servos, and most people don't drive them anywhere near their higher range of speeds.  On every surface grinder,I've used, very little torque is required.  Microstepping the motors will produce less 'cogging' and vibration.  So if you belt drive them and gear down, it takes care of both these issues.  [The finish will be influenced by lack of smoothness in the drive]

With something like a 4:1 reduction, even smaller steppers will suffice.


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## Flyinfool (May 21, 2019)

The table drive will almost have to be a belt drive with reduction. I was thinking 3:1 but 4:1 may also be an option.




Bob Korves said:


> Off your current topic, I have a B&S 2L surface grinder, one of the last ones made in 1946.  It has power feeds in both X (table traverse) and Z (in and out cross feed) axes.  The spindle is belt drive (126" long belt over 5 pulleys and a counterweight).  The power feeds are entirely mechanical, via an incredibly complicated bunch of machinery that still works, driven by a separate flat leather belt.
> 
> I found the #2 B&S grinder in the 1904 B&S catalogue
> 
> ...


I am not sure what the correct suffix is for my #2, maybe a #2B, but that is just a WAG. Mine is not and never has had the auto feed, that is why I am looking to add it electronically.

As for that tube sticking up, all I can guess is that the tube sticking up was for a vac attachment but there is no shoe for the bottom to catch the sparks????? I don't use it, it is just there. I will get the Serno tonight and post it. I am curious to know just how old this thing is.


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## Bob Korves (May 21, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> I am not sure what the correct suffix is for my #2, maybe a #2B


Probably just a #2, that was the usual nomenclature for manual #2 grinders.



Flyinfool said:


> I am curious to know just how old this thing is.


What is the serial number?  Maybe I can help with that.  I stated in post #37 how to find the S/N, at least on my 1946 model 2L.


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## Flyinfool (May 21, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> Probably just a #2, that was the usual nomenclature for manual #2 grinders.
> 
> 
> What is the serial number?  Maybe I can help with that.  I stated in post #37 how to find the S/N, at least on my 1946 model 2L.


The Serno is 2855.
I thought the #2 always has the auto feed and the #2B is the manual one, (but I could be totally wrong) I do not know what any of the other sufixes are or what they might mean.


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## Bob Korves (May 22, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> The Serno is 2855.
> I thought the #2 always has the auto feed and the #2B is the manual one, (but I could be totally wrong) I do not know what any of the other sufixes are or what they might mean.


You are correct about the model numbers, senior moment...  Mine is power feed, and it is a 2L, which caused the confusion.  I will look for the serial number...


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## Bob Korves (May 22, 2019)

Make sure that is the correct serial number.  From the Vintage Machinery Knowledge Base:

#2 surface grinding machine

Year  1919   1927    1935    1947
S/N   5698  7948    10067  18829

2855 would be a VERY early machine, and yours does not look that old by the way it is configured.  Where are you finding the serial number?  Might it be 12855?


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## Flyinfool (May 22, 2019)

This is from the right side of the table.

And if it is any help here is the data plate from the motor.


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## Bob Korves (May 22, 2019)

Well, that could well be the s/n of the grinder, it should be somewhere on the base as well.  The motor is not original to the B&S grinder, it is off a Parker Majestic grinder, and the spindle as well.  Whatever, if it works, then it works!


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## Flyinfool (May 22, 2019)

Based on some fuzzy logic based on how many machines were sold per decade, that would put my machine around 1904????
I wonder if mine was an old belt drive that was converted to electric once it became available.

Mentioning old and electric and belts......
The place I work at has some real interesting history, In the building where I work they used to make carriages for the civil war. They had one big steam engine to power all the pullies and shafts for all the belt drive equipment all over the plant. There are still some bits of that equipment hanging from the ceilings. Once it was invented they added an electric generator to that steam engine to electrify the building, then at night they would throw a big switch and send the electric power to all of the homes in about a 3 block radius of the plant. It is not like you can shut off a steam engine for the night and fire it back up in the morning, so they let it make power all night for the homes and then when the factory was ready to start in the morning all the houses went dark and people were glad to have that much power.


----------



## Flyinfool (May 29, 2019)

Well I have some stepper motors on the way to start playing with. Mostly just to learn how to make them spin for a first step. 
I also have 2 different stepper controllers coming, one programmable and one  that just does speed and direction they are the ones I referenced earlier in this thread.
I still need to pick out a couple of drivers. 

I will have an emergency system with limit switches at the extrems of machine movement in both directions that will cut the main power to the whole system if either axis ever hits the mechanical limits of the machine. This would only happen if there was some other failure that did not stop travel when it was supposed to.

Starting to hunt around to find locations for the limit switches and reversing switches.
For the "X" travel of the table I plan to try to mount the switches on the spring loaded bumpers that are used for manual operation to help stop and reverse table movement while cranking. the springs should also help the steppers to get the table back moving the other way. This will also be how I set how much travel is needed.

The plan of the moment is to use the controller that is just speed and direction to drive the table back and forth. Every time it hits a limit switch it will reverse direction and it has a knob to set the speed.

For the "Y" axis I plan to have  the programmable controller so that I can have a "Home" position, and it will increment the table every time the reverse button gets hit on the back stroke. It will let me program the step size, number of steps to end, and I think I can even have it turn off the "X" axis once it is done and sound or light an alarm to let me know it is done. There is also a manual mode so that I can use the jog buttons to position or move the table manually using the motors. It does a bunch of other stuff that I probably have no use for.

Yes a little Arduino or similar would do this really slick, but that level of programing is way over my pay scale. I will be in enough of a panic mode programing this little 1 axis controller that only has 15 commands for me to choose from and a max of 99 program steps.

Progress is starting, but this is not a project that will happen real fast. I usually end up working on things in spurts. I am sure that I will have LOTS of questions once I start getting actual parts in my grubby little mitts. As I said before this is all very new territory for me.


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## Flyinfool (Jun 5, 2019)

Oh man, I got the controller for the table movement delivered today. But it was shipped in a padded envelope and got crushed in route. It is now on its way back to Amazon and I get to start waiting all over for another one to get here.......... BUMMER


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## JimDawson (Jun 5, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> Oh man, I got the controller for the table movement delivered today. But it was shipped in a padded envelope and got crushed in route. It is now on its way back to Amazon and I get to start waiting all over for another one to get here.......... BUMMER



Well that just sucks.


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## Flyinfool (Jun 8, 2019)

Got tracking on new controller, should be here on 6-12.
But I was able to play with the damaged one enough to know that I will need more external circuitry to make it work as desired.

The direction switch is a push on / push off type DPDT. So I will need to make a circuit that will push on at one end of table travel and push of at the other end of table travel to get it running back and forth. This should not be to hard to come up with.


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## Flyinfool (Jun 17, 2019)

I have a latching relay ordered for the limit switches to interface thru to switch the direction back and forth.

My limit switches came in but they are not as advertised, they were advertised as DPDT momentary contact. What I got was DPST momentary, with one side NO and the other side NC. I do not yet know if I can make these work or if I have to send them back and try again. I do not need double throws, but at this point I do not have the controller for the y axis so I do not know if I need NO or NC. only one of the switches needs to be 2P that is the one that wil use one circuit to reverse the table and at the same time increment the Y feed. the limit switch at the other end of the table travel only needs to be a NO momentary switch to tell the controller to reverse speed. I could use 2 SPDT limit switches at the one end but then there is just more mounting and set up to do.

In looking closer I am seeing a lot of different limit switches listed as DPDT and in this same configuration of one NO and one NC switch. At least they were only $11 so not the end of the world. I seem to be having difficulty finding DPDT limit switches that have a sensible price tag. I do not want to spend more for one switch that I am for the entire rest of the system including the grinder.

After typing all of this I think I just talked myself into sending the switches back and using 2 of the SPDT switches on the one end rather than building a circuit to reverse the normal state of the wrong switch.

Back to shopping mode.

Someone mentioned somewhere, the main hardware is the cheap part, it is all the little stuff that adds up.


----------



## JimDawson (Jun 17, 2019)

An inexpensive DPST relay along with a SPDT limit would give you what you want.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 17, 2019)

As part of my further thinking I started to like the idea of using 2 SPDT limit switches at the one end of travel so that I can have them staggered by about a half inch or so. This way the Y axis can start moving just before the table reverses so that it will be done with its move before the wheel hits for the next pass.

Like I said in the beginning, I have no idea what I am doing or what matters. I am just doing a lot of thinking out loud here. If I am doing something crazy just tell me. I expect to learn a few things that will not work along the way. I may even let some of the magic blue smoke out of a few things before I get something that works. I just hope it is not the expensive shade of blue.....

Maybe I should order an extra can of magic blue smoke.....





						Magic Blue Smoke Refilling Kit - TOL-10622 - SparkFun Electronics
					

**Note:** This was one of our April Fool's products for 2011. Sadly, it's not real.  On a recent trip to South America I made a shocking discovery. Deep in




					www.sparkfun.com


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 18, 2019)

OK, I think I now have all the bits and pieces to make a stepper motor spin and go back and forth.
I am going to whip up a test bed wit string and 2 pulleys and a block of wood to represent the table.
This way I can test my theories on connecting everything up and reversing AND get to see a stepper motor actually spin.

My new question is; Can I just use 2 conductor speaker wire to hook everything up, or do I need twisted pairs, or shielded wires, or, or ,or????


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## Dabbler (Jun 18, 2019)

The key is to use a short as you can get.  If you are using twisted pairs, use a pair for each power lead with the other member of the pair a ground.  This gives you the best performance at the frequencies involved.


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## Flyinfool (Jun 24, 2019)

My latching relay finally showed up today, now I can try to make it go back and forth automatically.


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## Flyinfool (Jun 27, 2019)

FINALLY!!!! All of the parts are here for me to start connecting up oodles of wire to first see if I can make a stepper motor actually spin and if I can make it reverse direction on command AND not let any of the Magic Blue Smoke out of anything in the process. 

This weekend I will start messing around with the wires.

This is my goal is to get all of this connected up correctly and functioning just on the bench just to see if I can make a motor spin.
This will just be for the "X" axis that moves the table back and forth, and back and forth.......

Once this is all laid out and working electrically then I will start modifying and making parts and doing the changes to the grinder to actually implement it.

Then I get to start designing what it will take to move the table in the "Y" axis, and acquiring the parts to do so.


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## Flyinfool (Jun 30, 2019)

Woooo Hooooo!!!!!!!

I got the fancy stepper motor to spin, AND reverse direction on command. The speed control will vary it from about 60 RPM up to around 3,000 RPM.

Now I have to start working on the electronics to make the on off switch, and the speed control to be separate from the controller board so that I can have them mounted on a nice control panel. Then I have to find and tap into the controller circuit board the direction control and interface it to the 2 direction switches that will be at each end of the travel.

I think I know how to do these things, I just have to find where to splice the wires to the controller circuit board, and which traces on the controller board to cut so that all control is external to the board.

I did not make a video because YouTube does not need another boring vid of a motor spinning with nothing but a piece of tape on the shaft so you can see that it is spinning.

OK I know that this is old hat for most of you, but for me it is exiting being the very first time I have been able to make a stepper motor spin and a mile stone in his project.


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## Flyinfool (Jun 30, 2019)

After more testing, I found that I can get the motor down to about 1.5 RPM by playing with the steps per revolution settings. With a 3/4 inch dia timing pulley mounted on the shaft I can not stop it just by trying to hold it. I was impressed at the felt torque from this tiny NEMA 23 x 57mm unipolar motor being run as a bipolar on 24VDC.

I now also have the table reversing circuit built and working with the actual limit switches that I plan to use, Now I just have to interface it with the controller board. 

Progress is happening.........


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## Flyinfool (Jul 2, 2019)

IT WORKS!!!!

I now have all of the electronics assembled and playing well together. The reversing switches actually make the motor go the other way, on command even.

Now I get to start figuring out how to attach all of this to the grinder.


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## Flyinfool (Jul 7, 2019)

I am now starting into the actual machine conversion. Would those watching prefer to have me just add on to theis thread or start a new conversion thread. It makes no difference to me either way, I want to do what is best for this forum and its members.


I have a set of timing pullies and a belt. The small 25 groove pulley has been reamed to fit the motor, and the big 50 groove pulley has been bored to fit the shaft on the grinder.
I have been playing with a bunch of ideas on how to put this all together.I wanted to make it "universal so that if the NEMA 23 x 56mm motors that I have are not enough torque, I can go to the longest 114mm motors to double the available torque. I decided that I will make a setup for the short motor, and have the motor on the back of the mounting plate to not have anything sticking out. I I end up having to go to the long NEMA 23 motor I will have to mount the motor on the front of the mounting plate and live with it sticking out. OR I could get a short NEMA 34 motor and still have it on the back.

For the mounting plate I have a piece of 5/16 x 4 x 8 steel plate.
The surface of the grinder is rough cast so my plan was to drill and tap four 1/4-20 holes into the machine around the shaft boss and spot face them, then put in threaded rod and lock them in with nuts against the casting. The mounting plate will be about 1.50 inches out from the cast surface and go over the 4 studs with a nut on each side of the plate, this will allow me to get it squared up with the shaft. The motor will mount on the back side of the plate with the pulley projecting out the front. The 4 holes for the mounting of the plate to the studs will be slotted for adjusting the belt tension.

I have the mounting plate squared up and a small hole drilled in the location of the machine shaft and a relief cut to clear another cast boss that sticks out of the front of the grinder.

I am planning to make a quick release to be able to mechanically disconnect the shaft from the motor in case I want or need to go full manual, like for dressing the wheel. This will be the hardest part (at least for me) as I need to make a sliding male and matching female splineish something using the machines I have to work with and NOT buy any expensive tooling. The spline will need to be big enough to put into a tube that has a 20mm ID to fit the machine shaft. There will also need to be a detent to hold it either open or closed. I am still open to ideas on how to accomplish all this. I have never even thought of trying to make matching splines.

Still working on ideas of how to mount the limit switches to the return bumpers........?


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## JimDawson (Jul 7, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> I am planning to make a quick release to be able to mechanically disconnect the shaft from the motor in case I want or need to go full manual, like for dressing the wheel. This will be the hardest part (at least for me) as I need to make a sliding male and matching female splineish something using the machines I have to work with and NOT buy any expensive tooling. The spline will need to be big enough to put into a tube that has a 20mm ID to fit the machine shaft. There will also need to be a detent to hold it either open or closed. I am still open to ideas on how to accomplish all this. I have never even thought of trying to make matching splines.



Here is how I did a zero backlash quick disconnect.  That's a NEMA 23 motor.  This system was designed to be able to quickly change out the piece that it drives, but would work just as well driving another shaft.  Easily built on a lathe and mill.

Five 3/16 dowel pins, slide into mating holes in a piece of UHMW.  Make the holes in the UHMW a tight fit, it will expand to accommodate.  In this case the motor moves in & out on a dovetail for alignment.  This coupling will take some misalignment.






















You want to mount the limit switches such that the table be able to slide by the limit.  Normally the limits are mounted at different heights on the apron of the machine, and are actuated by cams that are adjustable down the length of the table using the T-slot in the front of the table.

You can see the adjustable cams in this picture of my machine, in this case the cams actuate the directional lever (center pic) but a limit switch in the place of the lever would be my choice.


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## Flyinfool (Jul 9, 2019)

I may be able to come up with something that slides on and off of pins. Or It might be just as easy to simply loosen the set screw on the drive pulley to let the shaft spin in the pulley. Tightening it would be difficult because I would have to find the flat on the shaft for the set screw to tighten to.

I see now. I was thinking all backasswards on the limit switches. I was thinking I had to mount the switches to the cams. My poor old little brain never even thought of mounting the switches to the machine and let the cams actuate the switches. This would also mean that I do not have to have wires flying back and forth with the table movement.


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## Flyinfool (Jul 10, 2019)

Pics of the very beginning of letting the chips fly.
I have the 4 mounting holes drilled and tapped into the front of the grinder around the tables drive shaft. I already have the wheel and spacer removed from the shaft. As soon as I make a proper pilot I will use a counterbore to spot face the 4 holes so that the spacers will sit flat and not try to follow the rough cast surface.





The second pic is the beginnings of the mounting plate that will be on 4 standoffs. the holes that are currently in the plate were for match drilling the machine. I will go back in and open all 5 of those holes into slots for belt adjustment. It is a major PITA to remove that plate from the machine.


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## Flyinfool (Jul 18, 2019)

I now have the mounting plate nearly done.
The original mounting holes were drilled with a #7 drill bit so that they would work as drill bushings for the drill and tap of the machine, they have now been opened up to 1/4 by 1/2 slots to allow for belt tightening.
 I just have to open up the hole that the machine shaft goes thru. I initially made it to match the shaft so that I could use the plate as a drill guide for putting the mounting holes in the machine. Now I have to open it up for the machine boss and the spacers that will line everything up. Size and finish is not critical and no one will see it once installed, So I will just use around a 2 inch hole saw with 2 holes spaced 1/2 inch apart and clean up the points with an end mill to make it a 2 inch wide x 2-1/2 long slot to match the mounting slots, and call it close enough. Then I can start with mounting the motor to the plate and the plate to the machine. Once I get that done I can take the final measurements for the length of spacers that will be needed to finish the stack up on the machines table drive shaft. For the motor end of the plate, I drilled and tapped mounting holes and nose relief for a NEMA 23 on one side of the plate and a NEMA 34 on the other side of the plate. Just in case the 23 is not strong enough to do the job. It was a lot easier to add the relief and hole for the 34 as long as it was all set up and indicated in on the rotary table. T

It has been slow going, temps are supposed to be pushing 100°F with super high humidity (dew point hitting 80°F) for good measure. I am old and can not tolerate that kind of heat anymore. It is supposed to be cooler next week.

Pics of the plate will be coming as soon as I can get that last hole done and some paint squirted on it to match the paint I used on the rest of the machine. OR maybe I'll just clean it up and use some gun bluing on it. I did machine all of the outside edges just to true it up. I could slap it on the surface grinder to make the front pretty and then just leave it looking like a ground surface.  Hmmmmmmm........... decisions, I have never had any artistic flair as to what would look good. This plate is steel, if it were aluminum I would leave it plain. I just happened to have a chunk of 3/8 thick steel plate laying around when I started this, and no aluminum plate laying around.


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## Flyinfool (Aug 1, 2019)

Well I was delayed again, had to deal with dad going into hospice and finally passing and then the funeral stuff. That is all behind me now and it is time to get back to life.
I did make the mistake of working on this some while all this was going on, my brain must have not been functioning properly because 2 of the holes in the stepper mounting pattern are drilled and tapped exactly .100 off from where they should be. SO now my choices are to slot those 2 holes and just use a screw and nut to attach the stepper, or weld the holes closed, clean up the weld, anneal the weld, and then drill and tap in the correct spot. I am leaning toward just slotting the 2 offending holes since once the nuts are on, no one will ever see the slots and this will be a LOT faster.


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## Flyinfool (Aug 11, 2019)

We have more progress.
I have the stepper motor and the belt drive all mounted up on the grinder. Plugged in the electronics I built earlier and the table even moves back and forth now.
WOOOOOO HOOOOOO

I still have to mount the switches for the table reversing. Right now I am just holding one switch in each hand and clicking to reverse direction. But I just had to see the table move under its own power.

Now for the issues......
#1 The motor does not have enough torque to handle the acceleration from stop and table reversing. They will keep it going if I help it get started.
The motor that I have is a NEMA 23, x 57mm long, 6 wire motors, I have them wired as 4 wire. I am running the motor at 48V (tried 24V first but it was way to weak). If I turn the speed all the way down then there is just enough torque to do the reversing, but that is to slow of a speed for normal grinding. There are several ways to wire up the 6 wire motor, Will I get more torque by using the center tap and one end or by using both ends of a coil and leaving the CT unconnected. Will a true 4 wire motor give more torque than the same size 6 wire run on 4.

#2 The fastest speed that I can set on my controller is barely fast enough. I have a 2 x 1 reduction in the drive belt. If I reduce the steps per revolution I will get more speed (or is it the other way around?), But will this also reduce my torque. What settings on the driver are best for maximum torque?

#3 I do have room for a longer NEMA 23 motor this will give me more torque that I need and should allow me to speed things up. BUT will it be enough? I also drilled the hole pattern for a NEMA 34 motor on the other side of the mounting plate. The shortest 34 is still more torque than the biggest 23? And the short 34 will fit better than the long 23. I have to do more measuring but I think the longest 23 will kit the base casting. I am not sure if I can flip the big pulley to put the hub on the inside to gain enough room. Lots more measuring to do.

Now that I have typed this all out I think I am leaning to the short NEMA 34?????


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## JimDawson (Aug 11, 2019)

Before you get too excited about changing motor, you might take a look at this article.  https://knowledge.ni.com/KnowledgeArticleDetails?id=kA00Z0000019LWZSA2

I couldn't find which stepper drivers you are using, but I would operate them at their maximum input voltage.


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## Flyinfool (Aug 11, 2019)

I will be rewiring to use full coil and then playing with the driver settings to see if i can get there with this motor.
If not, I found a 637 oz NEMA 34, 4 wire, on Amazon for $10, last one. I may just snag it just in case.

This is the driver that I have.





						Amazon.com: DM556 42/57 Stepper Motor Driver 2-Phase Stepping Motor Controller : Industrial & Scientific
					

Buy DM556 42/57 Stepper Motor Driver 2-Phase Stepping Motor Controller: Motor Drives - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



					www.amazon.com
				



The driver is 50VDC max I am at 48VDC. I did this by connecting two 24V supplies in series.
I do have another 24 V supply so I could go up to 72VDC but then I need a new driver.

This is the stepper motor that I have
Nidec servo corporation 4522
kh56km2u121
I have not been able to find this exact motor to get the specs for. There are motors listed that are very close in P/N, I believe that this is a proprietary motor made for a specific printer manufacturer and that is why I can not find specific data.

And this is the controller that I have.





						Stepper Motor Controller PWM Pulse Signal Generator Speed Regulator Board,DC 15-160V/5-12V: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

Stepper Motor Controller PWM Pulse Signal Generator Speed Regulator Board,DC 15-160V/5-12V: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				



I have pulled the direction switch off the board and wired in a latching relay and the relay is controlled by the 2 limit switches for reversing at the ends of travel.


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## JimDawson (Aug 12, 2019)

Have you got the current on the motors turned up to where it should be?  That will dramatically affect the torque.  If you don't have the current specs for the motor, then keep bumping up the current until the motor is too hot to hang on to after running for about 10 minutes.  Those motors will easily take 60°C (140°F)


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## Flyinfool (Aug 12, 2019)

The only info I could find was from an ebay ad that it was a 2 Amp motor so that is what I have it set for. I will start cranking that number up. Right now the motor is still running at room temperature. NO heat at all. 

Does the load mater in generating motor heat like a "normal" motor, or do steppers make the same heat regardless of load?


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## JimDawson (Aug 12, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> Does the load mater in generating motor heat like a "normal" motor, or do steppers make the same heat regardless of load?



The load makes no difference on a stepper, they draw the same current loaded or unloaded.  What you normally want to do is set the idle current reduction to ON, SW4=Off


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## Creativechipper (Aug 12, 2019)

Glad to see your having fun with the stepper motors.  

 I do have a few more to trade with if anyone would like send me a PM.


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## Flyinfool (Aug 12, 2019)

OK I did have SW4 set to off. I dropped the steps per rev to 1000 and I upped the amps from 2.1 to 2.7 the motor was not getting hot so I will up it another notch. I can still hear it skip a few steps when it reverses direction. This helped a lot but made a new problem appear.
The motor shaft is now spinning in the pulley bore.
The motor shaft is .250 Dia and has a light straight knurled finish and has a light press fit to the pulley, and I ground 2 flats for the set screws.
I am thinking I may have to add a key way. The cogging of the motor must make some really high torque spikes.

I never cut an internal hey slot before. This should be interesting......
I will also get the spring bumper put back on, they should help a lot with the reversing.


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## JimDawson (Aug 12, 2019)

For the pulley slip problem I would figure out how to build something like this. https://www.mcmaster.com/6435k12

Holds much better than a set screw.  A key is not the best system for a bi-directional system.  But on a shaft that small, you could assemble the pulley on the shaft then drill a 1/8 hole, half in the pulley and half in the shaft, and install a roll pin.

One problem you may have is that the acceleration of the motion profile is too aggressive.  You normally need to ramp up and down over some period of time.  If you are doing an instant direction change it is going to be an ongoing problem.


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## Flyinfool (Aug 13, 2019)

Yes the accel and decel curves are what is really needed, The controller that I have does not offer that option. I think that to use acel and decel curves I would have to have a controller where I can set the travel distance so that it has time to accel or decel. Right now I just have limit switches at each end of travel to tell it to reverse.

When I get to the motorizing the Z axis for the step over I am leaning toward an Adriano or raspberry pi board, then it will be easy to put in accel and decel curves. That will be a major learning curve for me since I am really bad at writing software. It is to bad that the Tiny Controls Surface grinder controller is no longer available, It looked to be perfect for what I want to do.

I can see that I still have a LOT to learn. But I am having fun doing it, so I will continue.


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## JimDawson (Aug 13, 2019)

One controller that you might look at is this one https://www.amazon.com/SainSmart-St...controller&qid=1565714679&s=industrial&sr=1-8

I have one and have played with it a bit, but not sure of all of the features.  One thing to note is that some have reported that these were received and didn't work.  The one I have seems to work fine.


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## Flyinfool (Aug 13, 2019)

I did look at this controller on the SainSmart website, they have all of the info and downloadable manuals.








						Single-Axis CNC Servo Stepper Motor Motion Programmable Controller
					

Only $39.99. Buy SainSmart 1 Axis CNC Servo Stepper Motor Motion Programmable Controller with fast shipping and 1-year warranty and technical support from SainSmart.




					www.sainsmart.com
				



It is also $10 less than Amazon.......

That is the controller that I was looking at for the Z axis. I could be all wet but it looks like I would have to rewrite the program for each job. As in a change of step over distance or table speed or length of travel.

In reading through the manual I did not find anything that looks to me like a accel or decel setting.


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## Flyinfool (Sep 4, 2019)

Well I started on the Arduino.
I bought a starter kit and I was able to make the LED blink.  OK I have a LOT of learning to do........
Yes this leaves me a very long way from having something that will make my SG run.

I am starting to compile a list of features and variables for the machine that will be needed / desired. There will be a lot more variables for use inside of the program once I get that far.

At this time I have no intention of trying to automate the Y axis now or in the future, Just the X and Z.

So far my list is.
Length of travel in X and Z
Speed in X and Z
Acell and Dcell in both X and Z
4 grind patterns (Zig-Zag slow steady Z feed, Step at one end, Step at both ends, and None) (None has Z motor turned off for manual input.)
Hold X position for dressing wheel
Jog buttons.
Limit switches for X and Z
E-Stop button

Anything else I should consider????


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## JimDawson (Sep 4, 2019)

Welcome to the world of machine programming.  It took me 2 days to get the hang of turning an output LED on and off with a computer when I first started many years ago.  A few weeks later I had a whole machine running, so you'll get there.    

I would add a ''teach'' function.  Jog right, press enter to log position, jog left, enter, etc.  Do this for both axes.  Saves entering actual position values into the computer.  This would work well for a grinder since you always overrun the part a bit, and the actual reversing position is not critical.


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## Flyinfool (Sep 4, 2019)

Good idea, added to list.

My starting problem is that I know nothing about programing anything in any language. So i don't even have a clue as to how to structure a program let alone the syntax of of all there cryptic function names.
Even the starter kits and manuals are loaded with TLAs right from the begining that I do not know what they mean.


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## JimDawson (Sep 4, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> Good idea, added to list.
> 
> My starting problem is that I know nothing about programing anything in any language. So i don't even have a clue as to how to structure a program let alone the syntax of of all there cryptic function names.
> Even the starter kits and manuals are loaded with TLAs right from the begining that I do not know what they mean.



In its simplest form, your program will have 5 basic functions
User Interface (GUI)
Generate Pulse & Direction for steppers
Read Inputs
Write Outputs
Main (this is where the timing and calls are done)

Somewhere in the program will be a clock that will cause the program to scan a module and execute the above functions.  I don't know what the syntax looks like for this, but I'll bet there is a lot of info on the internet.

I would create a module for each of these functions and call the module as needed.  Not sure how this is done with an Arduino, never programmed one.

Then create a descriptive variable name for each item because both you and the program need to be able to read it, maybe like LlimitSwX (Left Limit Switch X) and assign to maybe input 1.  I don't know what the variable name limitations are for your development platform, but I think you get the general idea.

I hope this will get you pointed in the right direction.


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## remorris (Aug 1, 2020)

Flyinfool said:


> I wonder just how many of us it would take to submit inquiries about the Tiny Controls TNC-G10 Surface Grinder Controller to get the fire lit for them to get it back in stock. Getting this controller or something similar would get my fire lit to move on with the stepper or servo conversion. From my research so far setting up the motors drivers and power supplies will not be an issue. It is the controller. Hardware wise it would not be all that hard to do something like an Arduino processor and that could even have a nice touch screen GUI. BUT I am worse than terrible at writing software. I know NOTHING about how to do it or even where to start. If I could just buy this box ready to go, that would be wonderful.


The Tiny controls TNC-G10 is (to me) a poor choice for a controller. I looked into this due to this and similar threads. The biggest objection I have is that it does NOT make use of the standard G code that all CNC machines use. There are a number of CNC controllers on eBay now (7/2020) that are being touted as surface grinder 2 axis controllers (Like the TC5520H at $160). All use G code as well as being sold for $200 or less. 
I realize this is an older thread, but it’s a viable option. 
Rick Morris


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