# Cordless tools, the next level



## Tozguy (Nov 21, 2020)

Most of us have been using cordless hand drills and drivers for many years now. Many of us have experienced the leap in performance and durability from NiCad to lithium-ion batteries. Moreover, with the recent proliferation of battery powered bikes and cars, we are facing developments far beyond the traditional light portable tools from Bosch, Dewalt, Milwaukee, etc.
In my case the next level has been a cordless lawnmower and chainsaw from Greenworks. There are other new brands too that seem to be pushing the cordless envelope but we know little about them. The reviews that are available on the internet are not always reliable nor detailed enough for some of us.

So anyone with questions or who wishes to share their experience with us on new products and brands please join in. It could be interesting.


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## graham-xrf (Nov 21, 2020)

Only yesterday I was looking at the box with collection of now unusable battery powered drills etc. sans batteries. A new drill + Li-ion batteries from B&Q DIY store can be had for less than the cost of replacing NiCad batteries.

I now know about what happens to NiCads, the reverse current through the first to discharge, the capacity memory effect, the crystal growths, the rejuvenation stunts. Battery wise, my Makita has been the most long-lived, and I could get "me too" batteries and chargers for the Li-ion type.

I agree about the new technology batteries. Having had the "Tesla" experience of being taken hundreds of miles to an air show, and brought home again by a thing that seems to mostly drive itself!

NiCads were a poisonous, and blighted technology. They taught us the convenience of cordless tools, but I don't regret their passing. Maybe I should just dump the (quite nice) old hand drills. I can't even recycle the chucks!


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## markba633csi (Nov 21, 2020)

Still have my little 6 volt ni-cad Makita and a couple of the 9 volt ones I bought used later.  Done a lot with them.
I do wish I had an electric chainsaw to replace my little Mac- easier to start and quieter
-Mark


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## tjb (Nov 21, 2020)

A couple of years ago, my NAPA dealer was making a great offer on DeWalt cordless tools.  I'm sure it was sponsored by DeWalt; the deal was bring in the old NiCad tools/batteries/chargers and get a credit on replacements with the new Li-Ion tools.  Not all tools qualified but enough to make the offer appealing.  I had a boatload of tools and batteries and took them up on the offer.  I never looked back, the new stuff is so much better.  Much good discussion on the subject between us and others on this thread:









						Covid
					

It has my family shut down .  :rolleyes:




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




I'm getting very interested in a battery powered chainsaw.  It's pretty much a guarantee I'll end up with one, but I'd love to hear from others who have experience with them.

Regards,
Terry


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## samstu (Nov 21, 2020)

I have a several year old ryobi chainsaw.  It's a credible tool for homeowner, but nothing that you could use for real work.  I have a harbor freight electric plug in saw with more capability.  I agree that real powerful chainsaw would be great.  I have a gas chainsaw, but never use it enough to keep it in tune for next use so it's always a project when I need it.  Plus think of safety of a dead man or even accelerometer throttle you could have on electric chainsaw.

I bought my teenage daughters a used Chevy Bolt Premier this summer.  Collision avoidance, limited self steering for lane departure, "helicoptor mode" cameras, android auto, etc all for about 16k.  230 mile range.  8 year /100k mile battery warranty.  A budget tesla?  Maybe not.  But it is a safe car, with almost no maintenance, and no fill ups.  There's a video on u tube showing the drive train has 3 moving parts and can be serviced in the vehicle.  Amazingly simple.  Bolt Traction motor

I'm very interested in Chevy's ecrate motor program coming out next year using the same components.


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## 7milesup (Nov 21, 2020)

I have an Ego Powertools hedge trimmer.  Don't use it for trimming hedges but rather for cutting the smaller brush down that is too small for the chainsaw.  It is the power head version so I could add a pole saw, edger, string trimmer and such to it.--->Ego Power Tools Combi Unit<---
It does its job very well.  Only complaint is that it is a little heavy.  I plan on getting an aftermarket shoulder harness and make an attachment for it.
I thought about getting their chainsaw but decided that my old Stihl 036 does a great job, and now with Stihl's slikr-than-snot chain filer,  --->Stihl Chainsaw sharpener<--- coupled with their yellow chain, it cuts like a beast.
My good friend has pretty much all of the Ego Power tools except the lawn mower.  He loves them.  He uses his pole saw quite a bit and he is the one that got me interested in the Ego tool line up.  I looked at Stihl's battery powered chainsaw, but their system uses too low of voltage in my opinion.  Their system also costs at least as much, if not more, than a new gas powered one from them.  My Stihl 036 has been to hell and back and it keeps running.
If you have a battery platform already (Milwaukee, Makita, Dewalt, etc.) one might be better off staying with that same mfg.  I do like Ego's total system though.  Interestingly, Home Depot carried that line until this fall, but now it is sold at Lowes.  Not sure why HD did that because I know for a fact that it was a hot seller.  
The new electrics (drill, chainsaws, whatever) are very powerful, as previously mentioned.  I fly large Radio Control aircraft and helicopters utilizing Lithium Polymer batteries (a whole 'nother animal compared to Li Ion).  The power is significant with an instant on.  Electric devices can be more dangerous than their gas powered counterparts.
As a side note... He also owns a Tesla Xd.  I have rode in it and driven it.  Super fast.  Super techie.  A lot of gee whiz stuff in their rivaling or exceeding what we had in the airplane.  However, that 250 mile range is just something I cannot get past, especially if going on a trip and possibly traveling to areas where charging stations are few and far between.  Also, the fit and finish, for an $80k car was, in my opinion, subpar.   It seems like they went for a minimalist approach (or maybe European) but I find it lacking.  The road noise is terrible too.  My Ram Laramie is significantly quieter believe it or not.


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## Superburban (Nov 21, 2020)

After going through a few craftsman drills, that had the batteries die in a year or two, and not able to get replacements for less  then buying a new drill, , I started getting the Ryobi tools. They were ok, with the nicads, but had the only affordable setup back then, that had many tools that used the same battery. A few things like the angle grinder, were poor on nicads, but when the LIon batteries came out, they really woke up the old tools. Since they have been using the same battery setup, you can find many older Ryobi tools cheap at yard sales. The chain saw is ok for what I do, but I only paid $15 for it at a yard sale. The weed whacker is the only one that I bought the higher powered one, the old 18 volt did not cut it.  Been happy for going on 20 years now.

I bought a 2020 Pacifica hybrid, with the sate and federal tax rebates, it brought the price down to a reasonable level. For around here in the mountains, the hybrid idea is great. A few months back, I drove up to yellow stone, for a few days. through the mountains, it averaged 40 % in electric, and regen (charging while going down hill), and 60% on gas. For around town, we hardly ever get past the electric plug in mode, where we then use the hybrid mode.  One of the selling points on the Pacifica, is it has essentially the same gas engine as the gas only version, plus the 150 or what ever HP from the electric. Many others use a 4 cyl for their hybrid, and a 6 cyl for their gas version, which makes it hard for the gas on the highway. The switch between electric, and gas, is seamless, you do not feel a thing, unless you are heavy on the go pedal, such as entering a highway, where it uses the power from both the gas, and electric.

These electric & hybrid cars are getting to be great vehicles.


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## Tozguy (Nov 21, 2020)

My introduction to cordless tools way back in the NiCad days was limited to drills. As others have mentioned the batteries would die way too soon. The batteries were always too expensive to replace so often. We kept buying new sets because they were cheaper than buying just batteries. It did not make sense but a new set always looked better than the last so we kept trying.
Lithium-ion batteries transformed the game and impressed me tremendously. So gradually my gas powered tools (hedge trimmers, weedwhackers) and some corded tools got replaced with lithium-ion battery powered ones. I never looked back.
Lawnmower designs seem to have come a long way in a short time. Last spring we bought a 21'' 80v version by Greenworks. It beats our old gas mower by a country mile. Not sure how much a new blade will cost when the time comes but I am bracing myself for a nasty surprise.
Then came a Greenworks chainsaw because my old 12'' pruning saw (not a Stihl) needed too much work to keep it going. My gas Stihl is stihl the one for heavy work but the Greenworks chainsaw is awesome for most of what has to be done around home.
My neighbour bought a used electric bike last year for $300. It was worth $2000 when new but it needed a new battery so he got the bike cheap. He bought a refurbished battery for $700 which is much less than the price of a new one.
I can't help but think that battery powered stuff is going to keep getting better and less expensive. Is it going to be a challenge to identify and avoid the junk stuff?  Sharing your experiences here, good and bad, should be quite interesting.


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## Tozguy (Nov 21, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> I can't even recycle the chucks!


Just curious as to why not Graham.


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## matthewsx (Nov 21, 2020)

I sold outdoor power equipment for about 5 years, carried gas, corded and battery powered tools (one of my old customers just called while I was typing this). 

Best bang for the buck were definitely the GreenWorks tools but there are plenty of other good brands out there. 

One of the hardest, and most frightening, things I encountered was when an older customer would bring in their chainsaw for a "tune up". We would change the plug, clean the filter, sharpen the chain, etc. and test it before calling the customer for pickup. More often than I would have liked they would bring the saw back complaining it wouldn't start. I'd prime the carb and start it right up and we both realized the saw wasn't the problem....

Battery powered or electric was the recommendation, and definitely one of the pole versions to keep them off ladders too 

Be safe out there, sometimes it's better to pay someone else than risk injury. We all want to be healthy to work in our shops....


John


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## pacifica (Nov 21, 2020)

I have a makita 18v chainsaw. Takes 2 18v batteries and works well. You can probably do  up to 8 " diameter tree trunks. The electric brake makes it much safer to use than other chain saws. With 3 amp batteries it will cut for about 30-40 minutes. Light and maneuverable in use.


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## graham-xrf (Nov 21, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> Just curious as to why not Graham.


The Ryobi took a hell of a bashing, drilling 6mm holes into 6mm think RSJ beams, followed by either 10mm or 12mm widenings for the roof joist pins. It is a bit thrashed. The others have a variety of keyless tightening methods. Even if I took them off, I don't have anything else to use them on.

It's not in me to dump reasonably good motorized tools, but they take space, and haven't made a hole nor driven a screw in .. years.


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## tjb (Nov 21, 2020)

Lot's of good information here.  Keep it coming.  My Li-Ion platform is totally DeWalt:




(The collections actually a little bigger than that, now.)  So I'm very curious about their chainsaws.  Anybody out there ever even been in the same room with one?

Regards


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## matthewsx (Nov 21, 2020)

tjb said:


> Lot's of good information here.  Keep it coming.  My Li-Ion platform is totally DeWalt:
> 
> View attachment 344894
> 
> ...


This is the biggest thing, select a system and stick with it so all your batteries work across tools you own. I standardized on Hitachi long ago and have been very happy with them. 

Lawn and garden are greenworks.


John


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## Tozguy (Nov 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> More often than I would have liked they would bring the saw back complaining it wouldn't start. I'd prime the carb and start it right up and we both realized the saw wasn't the problem....


Doesn't sound like it would be someone from here.


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## tjb (Nov 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> This is the biggest thing, select a system and stick with it so all your batteries work across tools you own. I standardized on Hitachi long ago and have been very happy with them.
> 
> Lawn and garden are greenworks.
> 
> ...


That's wise counsel.  And I fully agree.  Bet I end up with a DeWalt.  Not because it's 'better', but in the grand scheme of things, unless there's something I don't yet know, because it makes more sense.

Regards,
Terry


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## graham-xrf (Nov 21, 2020)

7milesup said:


> As a side note... He also owns a Tesla Xd.  I have rode in it and driven it.  Super fast.  Super techie.  A lot of gee whiz stuff in their rivaling or exceeding what we had in the airplane.  However, that 250 mile range is just something I cannot get past, especially if going on a trip and possibly traveling to areas where charging stations are few and far between.  Also, the fit and finish, for an $80k car was, in my opinion, subpar.   It seems like they went for a minimalist approach (or maybe European) but I find it lacking.  The road noise is terrible too.  My Ram Laramie is significantly quieter believe it or not.


I assure you that there is nothing European about "minimalist plastic finish". Just because Bang & Olufsen Hi-Fi kit pervades Sweden, and the Bauhaus style of art and design got popular, we can all still tell that an 80K car has to have a quality stitched leather interior, and a heraldic principles juxtaposition of colour with metal. Quality finish attention to detail to give pleasure from design is not their strong point.

The car was the twin-motor Tesla Model S with alleged range 400miles, though I expect the way we were going, we might have got 350m. Also, it was very quiet. My pal Mike has driven it all over Europe, letting it find it's way to charge points, even in Poland! There are supercharge points spreading over Russia.

I completely agree about the finish vs the technology, for the price, which is out of my league anyway. The monster battery had to be something special. The computer technology was just utterly impressive! Tesla has leather-phobia, and the relentless elimination of anything interesting and stylish in the interior, in deference to some green recycle fashion fad, was disappointing. If you want to see great finish quality, see the Jaguar I-Pace. Expect that Mercedes, BMW, etc. will be in the same league.

For most folk, 400m is enough to allay range anxiety. Beyond 500m, it should no longer be an issue. Of course, in UK, there will be no further sales of new cars using petrol or diesel after 2030.

[Edit - Agreed about standardizing where all tools can use the same batteries and charger is wisdom. I suppose, because of what I already have, I might go Makita].


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## matthewsx (Nov 21, 2020)

Range is an issue, same with run time for battery tools. But it's getting better all the time....

Drove a Model S and I was impressed, of course my eyes were on the road, not the seats which are definitely comfortable 

Looking forward to riding a Zero soon, electric is definitely the future especially when MIT gets their fusion reactors online,









						Validating the physics behind the new MIT-designed fusion experiment
					

MIT researchers have published seven papers outlining details of the physics behind the ambitious SPARC fusion research experiment being developed by MIT and Commonwealth Fusion Systems.




					news.mit.edu
				





John


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## Tozguy (Nov 21, 2020)

I wonder if there will ever be an industry standard established so that batteries of a given voltage become interchangeable across all brands?


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## matthewsx (Nov 21, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> I wonder if there will ever be an industry standard established so that batteries of a given voltage become interchangeable across all brands?


Doubtful


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## b4autodark (Nov 21, 2020)

I have a Ridgid drill and impact 18v, like them. I have Makita drill, sawzall, portaband, and grinder 18v, like them, I have Oregon 40v chainsaw, leaf blower, pole saw, string trimmer, LOVE them. My daughter has Greenworks lawn mower and snow blower and likes them, I am impressed with the run time.

The only thing I don't like about battery tools is if they don't work they are seemingly throw aways. No one around here will look at them. It's a shame to have a $300 unit that needs a $10 switch and have to throw it.


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## Superburban (Nov 21, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> I wonder if there will ever be an industry standard established so that batteries of a given voltage become interchangeable across all brands?


I have seen places selling adapters to make one bat fir another. Don't recall if it was amazon, or ebay.


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## ACHiPo (Nov 21, 2020)

I bought an 18V Ridgid drill when my 12V Dewalt died.  I bought a second reconditioned one off Ebay along with two batteries, a reciprocating saw, multi-tool, and right-angle drill.  I just picked up a leaf blower that I love--it is fantastic for getting leaves and crud out of the garage, although I feel a little like Carl from Caddie Shack when I clean the garage with it.  All in all have been very impressed.


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## Shootymacshootface (Nov 21, 2020)

I have an 18 volt Makita, and I like it well enough, but I hate how expensive the batteries are.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 21, 2020)

7milesup said:


> However, that 250 mile range is just something I cannot get past, especially if going on a trip and possibly traveling to areas where charging stations are few and far between.



I have a funny story about that. (It was amusing to me anyway.)  A friend of mine and I took a motorcycle camping trip to the Southwest a
few years ago.  Our route one morning was northbound on Highway 89 from Flagstaff to Navajo Bridge and then up the hill to Jacob
Lake and west from there.  That stretch of Highway 89 runs through the Navajo Reservation and is pure desert: almost no place to
stop once past the Grand Canyon turnoff.  As we headed up the road we came up on a very slow moving car that turned out to be a
Tesla.  The driver, and the expensive looking female next to him didn't look at all happy as we rode by.  Why would a Tesla be going that slow?
Obviously because the battery was low and he was trying to save juice.  We stopped at Navajo Bridge for gas and I asked the attendant
if there were tow trucks available because we knew of somebody that might need one.  Only from Jacob Lake and Page she said.
That would have been an expensive tow out there, and no quick charge stations around I bet.  As we headed west toward Jacob Lake,
we saw a flatbed tow truck headed down the hill.  Next time out there, I bet that guy brought his SUV!


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## graham-xrf (Nov 21, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Looking forward to riding a Zero soon, electric is definitely the future especially when MIT gets their fusion reactors online,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hopefully yes! The 500MW Tokomak at ITER will only be getting first plasma in 2025, and up and running around 2035, and even then, it will still be a $22 billion experiment, with next phase DEMO. For something that started in 1985, I would say the pace is kind of slow!

ITER, and indeed the MIT one are Deuterium-Tritium fusors, which are not actually as clean as the publicity implies, because making the tritium requires a nuclear process starting with lithium in a nuclear reactor, and the process causes materials inside to become radioactive waste from neutron bombardment.

Unfortunately, the clean (aneutronic) Proton-Boron fusor hopes are a bit blunted. The Polywell idea was finally scuppered by the work at University of Sydney. P-B reaction produces no toxic by-products, but needs 100million degrees plasmas. I think, ultimately, we will have to get fusion working, but I think it will be DT.


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## RJSakowski (Nov 21, 2020)

In 2006 I bought a Makita drill/driver and impact driver combo.  They used an 18 volt NiMH battery. I have driven we;ll over 100 lbs of deck screws with them in the past fourteen years.  I have replaced the batteries twice, the last set in 2014.  I was able to swap out a dead cell in one of the previous sets and I am still using it.  My last set of batteries was not  Makita but an aftermarket and they have been going longer the the two previous sets of Makita batteries.

My experience with lithium ion batteries is with laptops.  Battery life is poor to say the least.  I suspect that it has to do with keeping them on charge during the working day.  It is hard to get more than a year or two of service.  The same goes for cell phones.  My LG cell phone is on its third battery and the phone is only three years old.  The GPS in my car uses a lithium ion battery and after a couple of years, it puffed up to the point where the case was bulging.  The same with my old Motorola cell phone.


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## DavidR8 (Nov 21, 2020)

Earlier this summer in the midst of an uncharacteristically hot day here my trusty Ridgid cordless drill from 2004 started losing charge. Heck it had only renovated three houses, seemed like it was lying down on the job a bit soon in my view. 
As it served me well for sixteen years I replaced it with another Ridgid model, more volts, more torque, less weight, tastes great kinda deal. 

Well as soon as the weather cooled off it worked fine again. Go figure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Firstgear (Nov 21, 2020)

I have a Ryobi chain saw.  I have been using it for cutting small pieces....typically not anything more than 12 inches or so.

Last year I bought a new 2020 Sierra Denali HD2500 diesel.

This year I bought a new 2021 Yukon Denali.

We travel too much to make me comfortable with electric vehicles.


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## NortonDommi (Nov 21, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> NiCads were a poisonous, and blighted technology. They taught us the convenience of cordless tools, but I don't regret their passing. Maybe I should just dump the (quite nice) old hand drills. I can't even recycle the chucks!


There are videos on the YouTube about converting your Ni-Cad battery pack to Li-ion using off the self replacements which if bought on-line can be quite cheap.  You can also buy adaptors that allow different brands to be used together.


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## MontanaLon (Nov 21, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Only yesterday I was looking at the box with collection of now unusable battery powered drills etc. sans batteries. A new drill + Li-ion batteries from B&Q DIY store can be had for less than the cost of replacing NiCad batteries.
> 
> I now know about what happens to NiCads, the reverse current through the first to discharge, the capacity memory effect, the crystal growths, the rejuvenation stunts. Battery wise, my Makita has been the most long-lived, and I could get "me too" batteries and chargers for the Li-ion type.
> 
> ...


Many of the batteries can be refurbed by replacing the batteries inside the battery casing. There are really only a couple of different cell sizes, the hard part is usually getting the case to open without splitting. They can be wired up in several different ways to get the correct voltage if you play with them a bit. 

There is a guy down the street who has a John Deere riding mower that is seriously long in the tooth. A couple of years ago I was riding my bike with the kids and he was out mowing and the damn thing was silent. I knew it ran on gas before so I stopped and asked him about it. He had scavenged an old electric forklift for the motor. I think he said it ran on 60 volts. Then he found a deal on lithium rechargeable batteries and made a case that they would all fit into that took up the rest of the space where the gas engine had been. He shoehorned the whole thing into the mower somehow and it runs really well. Lots of power, really I think more power than the gas had. He said it would mow his yard twice between charges. He's got the snow blade for it too and he said it pushes snow better than it used to. Between the electric motor and the batteries I am sure it gained some weight so that probably helps with traction. It is just weird as hell to see a John Deere mower actually mowing and there is just a bit of a whine to it. You can hear the blades swishing over the sound of the motor and grass flying out the side. He said when the motor went out on it he just couldn't see spending what they wanted for a new mower or a new motor when he could get stuff for free and make it fit his needs. I think he bought the mower new when he moved into the house 40 years ago. He is kind of like a lot of you guys, old, retired and can make stuff.


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## Larry$ (Nov 22, 2020)

I ran a production shop for many years. When the 9V Makita impact drivers came out, we started using them for the smaller screws. When the 12V Makitas became available they would drive all the sizes we used. They were used at the assembly benches, used all day long for years. Over the years, salesmen would make us a really cheap deal on other brands trying to get us to switch. None of them held up as well. A years use in a production environment is probably a lifetime in a hobby shop or home. Drills weren't used as much and the preferred drill was a Sioux inline air because they were so much faster. Ultimately most case assembly was switched to dowel construction. Faster and more automated.


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## Tozguy (Nov 22, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> I suspect that it has to do with keeping them on charge during the working day


RJ you seem to have had more than your share of battery failures. I thought that it was safe to leave most lithium batteries on the charger. My habit for tools is to top up the battery at the end of the job but remove it from the charger when fully charged (but I sometimes forget to remove it).
The portable LED shop light stays on the charger when not in use as does my iphone.
Does whether we leave the battery on the charger depend on how a particular charger is designed to be used?


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## Tozguy (Nov 22, 2020)

If I lived in the USA I'd be headed to Home Depot right now. ON SALE








						DEWALT 20V MAX 12in. Brushless Cordless Battery Powered Chainsaw, Tool Only DCCS620B - The Home Depot
					

The DEWALT DCCS620B 20-Volt MAX batteries. Gas-free operation eliminates the cold starts, fumes, carburetor issues and maintenance involved with gas-powered chainsaws. This battery powered chainsaw is



					www.homedepot.com
				



Looks like this one can be used with one hand only. Not something that anybody recommends but when up in a tree hanging on to branch one handed operation is the only way to go. I miss my little old Homelite just for that.


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## RJSakowski (Nov 22, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> RJ you seem to have had more than your share of battery failures. I thought that it was safe to leave most batteries on the charger. My habit for tools is to top up the battery at the end of the job but remove it from the charger when fully charged (but I sometimes forget to remove it).
> The portable LED shop light stays on the charger when not in use as does my iphone.
> So does whether we leave the battery on the charger depend on how a particular charger is designed to be used?


I have suspected for some time that it is not good to leave a battery on a charger for an extended period of time.  Unfortunately, when I was at work, it was necessary to leave my laptop connected to the charger as otherwise I would only have a few hours of working time at best.  After I retired, my dell phone was mostly sitting on my desk and I had it plugged into the charger. 

I have always pulled my NiMH batteries off the charger when they were fully charged.  I charge my lead acid deep cycle batteries with constant voltage chargers (14 volts)  and pull them off charge once current drops to zero.  Lately, I have been trying to pull my cell phone off the charger when it hits 100%.  I changed batteries out earlier this year and I see if it makes a difference as to battery life.

Leaving a battery on a charger presents the battery with a higher than normal voltage and results in energy being dumped as heat or possibly resulting gassing as is the case with lead acid batteries. I had an interesting experience with a lead acid battery on a fishing trip to Lake of the Woods in Canada.  I use my deep cycle battery for both the on board electrical and starting.  On the last day of the trip, we made a 25 mile journey out to a fishing spot which was a close to an hour of run time on full throttle.  This on a fully charged battery.  The older outboard's charging circuit was a simple alternator/rectifier and didn't have volt.  The next day , the battery wouldn't hold a charge.

The outboard was a 50 hp motor, 1985 vintage and was commonly found on pleasure boats of the time so operating conditions would have been similar.  The difference would be that they wouldn't be using a deep cycle battery.  I replaced the bridge rectifier with a rectifier/regulator  from a later vintage.


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## Tozguy (Nov 22, 2020)

This quote comes from here;   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

Chemistry, performance, cost and safety characteristics vary across types of lithium-ion batteries. Handheld electronics mostly use lithium polymer batteries (with a polymer gel as electrolyte) with lithium cobalt oxide(LiCoO2) as cathode material, which offers high energy density, but presents safety risks,[16][17]:20:21–21:35 especially when damaged. Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4, Li2MnO3, or LMO), and lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide(LiNiMnCoO2 or NMC) offer lower energy density but longer lives and less likelihood of fire or explosion. Such batteries are widely used for electric tools, medical equipment, and other roles. NMC and its derivatives are widely used in electric vehicles.

Most of the technical details in this article are over my head but it explains elsewhere in the article about the possibility of over charging and ruining a lithium battery.


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## Janderso (Nov 22, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> Still have my little 6 volt ni-cad Makita and a couple of the 9 volt ones I bought used later.  Done a lot with them.
> I do wish I had an electric chainsaw to replace my little Mac- easier to start and quieter
> -Mark


You can’t start a Mac


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## Janderso (Nov 22, 2020)

I went fishing with my brother in law very early one morning at a high Sierra lake on a family camping trip.
He had his truck battery running the trolling motor.
The fish weren’t biting so we decided to ahead in. After about half an hour, I noticed we failed to pull the anchor.
Battery technology has come a long way.
Happy Sunday morning everybody!


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## Janderso (Nov 22, 2020)

Anyone catch that video on the subject of electric vehicles and the rare earth metal shortage?
I understand the need to convert to an alternative energy source to reduce CO2. 
The open pit mining and the kids in the Congo digging for cobalt opened my eyes to the shortage and high demand for these precious metals.
Tesla is trying to make contractual agreements with some suppliers to only sell to them.
Most of the current production of cobalt goes to industry but automakers are gearing up to rapidly increase the use/need of all the battery components.


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## tjb (Nov 22, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> If I lived in the USA I'd be headed to Home Depot right now. ON SALE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a great price.  Probably with $99 just because.  Wish they'd run a special on the 60V.  They don't even sell those in the store (at least down here).  They are only available from HD on line.


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## brino (Nov 22, 2020)

Superburban said:


> I have seen places selling adapters to make one bat fir another. Don't recall if it was amazon, or ebay.





NortonDommi said:


> You can also buy adaptors that allow different brands to be used together.



I have seen some adapters on thingiverse. So if you have access to a 3D printer, you could make your own:

Here's just a couple.......
Milwaukee M18 to Ryobi Battery Adapter:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1677812

Milwaukee to Black and Decker:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:31058

-brino


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 23, 2020)

I bought a 14.4v Craftsman driver drill back in the mid to late nineties. I finally replaced the original pair of Nicads with Li-ions 2 years ago. Pretty impressed.  I'm interested in a battery chainsaw for camping, my Stihl 009L attracts too much attention in campgrounds.


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## Tozguy (Nov 24, 2020)

Since many campgrounds forbid cutting any kind of wood around campsites, there would be a stealth factor to consider  For such a specialized occasion maybe these are worth a look.




__





						Amazon.com : mini chainsaw
					





					www.amazon.com
				



Sorry to poke fun at you MrWhoopee, hope you are not offended.


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## tjb (Nov 24, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> If I lived in the USA I'd be headed to Home Depot right now. ON SALE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Showed this to my wife.  Yesterday morning, she went to HD and bought one.  A nice tool, but it's no substitute for a 'real' chainsaw.  I have a Stihl 16" gas-powered, and they're light years apart.  Granted, a 16" is a lot different from a 12", but they don't handle anywhere close to the same.  (I have a 12" Stihl pole saw, and there's no doubt it is more powerful than this 12" DeWalt.)  The DeWalt cuts down brush and very small saplings well enough, but about 2" diameter is all it can handle without beginning to bog down.  The worst thing is that, unlike the Stihl, it has a bit of a 'kick'.  Even with light brush, it's more than I would have anticipated.  Unofficially, I attribute it to a far slower chain speed.  The teeth tend to 'grab' instead of 'cut'.  Easy enough to adjust for - once you realize it's going to happen - but for that first cut, it's a little unanticipated.  It CAN be used one-handed, but I wouldn't recommend it.  That just seems to exacerbate the kickback characteristic.  The really nice feature is convenience: press the thumb safety, pull the trigger, and your sawing.  No throwing out your shoulder cranking it a thousand times while you're clearing brush.  And no stepping out of the thicket, cranking, and repositioning yourself after you get it running.  That's very nice.

Am I glad I have it?  Yeah, I think so.  Since I have a rack full of DeWalt batteries and chargers, for a hundred bucks, it was worth the gamble.  Will it replace a gas powered?  Not a chance.  In my opinion, it's a different kind of tool, altogether.  It won't replace anything for me, but it allows some stuff I'm doing with its gas cousins to be done a little more easily.  I must say, however, it has introduced a degree of caution into my considering the larger 60 volt version.  I'll need to examine the specs, but if the 60v doesn't have a higher speed than the 20v, I'm not interested.

Regards


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 24, 2020)

While I cannot complain about the convenience of battery powered tools. I have had way too many of them become obsolete because they no longer made the batteries. Many I spent hundreds on. That then required me to have to purchase another set that utilized the battery of the day until they were no longer available.

I believe it is a good thing to try and reduce pollution, but I think there is more a marketing strategy to this than environment. I have gas powered tools that are still kicking after 30 years, my chain saw for one. While electric tools seem to last about 2-5 years before they fail or become obsolete for one reason or another. That ensures that I will have to go and buy another. We live in a manufacturing world. They have to keep us buying to sustain the process.

A term for this is" Engineered Obsolescence" or "Planned Obsolescence". How ever you look at it. You won't have to worry about someone buying our old battery powered or other modern tools for that matter, in an auction and restoring them like we do with many of the large machines we buy today (Mills, Shapers, Surface Grinders, etc). They will be ground up and made into new plastic tools to fit the flavor of the day.


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## Tozguy (Nov 24, 2020)

Terry, Thanks for your thoughts on the Dewalt. Most of my comparisons of battery powered tools to gas or corded tools have been like 'taking a knife to a gunfight'. 
The chain on my Greenworks 80v did seem to cut differently than my gas Stihl. Not discounting the fact that the chain was new it seemed as though it was designed differently and it took some practice to adapt to it. The Greenworks can certainly handle the type of work I usually face more conveniently.
Hopefully you will still find a niche use for your Dewalt or get a refund if its dangerous or useless.


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## MERLIncMan (Nov 24, 2020)

A friend needed his bushes trimmed, so he got a hedge-trimmer: Stihl, 40v (I think) battery. He is an elderly gentleman, so I did the trimming.
Only came with 1 battery (unacceptable in my mind).
The thing was really easy to use out of the box, only bound on branches about 5/8" thick - but it could do them one off.
My gripe was that the battery only lasted for about 30 minutes (maybe longer - I topiaried about 4 bushes in that time).
It charged about 7/8 full in the time it took to gather up the clippings.
Moral of the story? 
It was nice having no cord and no gas - it was lighter and quieter.
Battery capacity has a little ways to go.
MINIMUM of 2 (4 is better) batteries.


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## tjb (Nov 24, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> Terry, Thanks for your thoughts on the Dewalt. Most of my comparisons of battery powered tools to gas or corded tools have been like 'taking a knife to a gunfight'.
> The chain on my Greenworks 80v did seem to cut differently than my gas Stihl. Not discounting the fact that the chain was new it seemed as though it was designed differently and it took some practice to adapt to it. The Greenworks can certainly handle the type of work I usually face more conveniently.
> Hopefully you will still find a niche use for your Dewalt or get a refund if its dangerous or useless.


I'm very comfortable with keeping the DeWalt.  Finding the right 'niche' is a good way to put it.  I don't consider the tool 'dangerous' but, like you noted, it's 'different' and has a bit of a user's learning curve associated with it.  I won't be looking for a refund on the DeWalt.  I'm glad I have it.  There is a convenient niche in my spectrum for which it is well suited.  But it won't replace what I routinely do with my gas powered chainsaws.  In my opinion, it would be a disappointment to a potential buyer who assumed differently.

Regards, and thanks for the heads-up on the Home Depot sale.  I'm glad I saw it.
Terry


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## Tozguy (Nov 24, 2020)

My Greenworks 80v chainsaw is at least equivalent to my old gas Homelite Bandit in performance. The Homelite was a great saw for one handed work, when I could get it to run. 

__
		https://flic.kr/p/GFAynM
I would consider getting a second battery powered chainsaw specifically for one handed work if it took the same batteries as I already have.


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## tjb (Nov 24, 2020)

MERLIncMan said:


> A friend needed his bushes trimmed, so he got a hedge-trimmer: Stihl, 40v (I think) battery. He is an elderly gentleman, so I did the trimming.
> Only came with 1 battery (unacceptable in my mind).
> The thing was really easy to use out of the box, only bound on branches about 5/8" thick - but it could do them one off.
> My gripe was that the battery only lasted for about 30 minutes (maybe longer - I topiaried about 4 bushes in that time).
> ...


That was the big selling feature for me.  All of my cordless tools are DeWalt (20v), so I'm loaded up with batteries and chargers.  If I had to buy new/different sets, I'd probably pass.

Regards,
Terry


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## MERLIncMan (Nov 24, 2020)

tjb said:


> That was the big selling feature for me.  All of my cordless tools are DeWalt (20v), so I'm loaded up with batteries and chargers.  If I had to buy new/different sets, I'd probably pass.
> 
> Regards,
> Terry



Ya! I've only got a drill and impact (20v De), but I've got 4 batteries and 2 chargers.  It'd be nice to have a cordless sawzall, but I've never been happy with any of the others - circular saw, flashlight, etc...

For some things, namely saw-types, I want the anger of the AC. That's just me though - maybe Lithium (or nuclear!) will get there someday.


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## tjb (Nov 24, 2020)

MERLIncMan said:


> Ya! I've only got a drill and impact (20v De), but I've got 4 batteries and 2 chargers.  It'd be nice to have a cordless sawzall, but I've never been happy with any of the others - circular saw, flashlight, etc...
> 
> For some things, namely saw-types, I want the anger of the AC. That's just me though - maybe Lithium (or nuclear!) will get there someday.


Their Li-Ion flashlights are great.  Pricey, but they come with several of the combo kits.  I have two of these; I got rid of all my other shop lights - battery and AC:



			https://www.lowes.com/pd/DEWALT-500-Lumen-LED-Rechargeable-Handheld-Flashlight/50343690?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-lia-_-129-_-cordlessdrillsandcombokits-_-50343690-_-0&placeholder=null&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoduRiLib7QIVhJ2GCh1ePQoqEAQYDCABEgJ4QfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
		


Regards


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## mcostello (Nov 24, 2020)

The correct term for Planned Obsolescence is Malicious Engineering.


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## Shotgun (Nov 24, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> NiCads were a poisonous, and blighted technology. They taught us the convenience of cordless tools, but I don't regret their passing. Maybe I should just dump the (quite nice) old hand drills. I can't even recycle the chucks!



OR....
Buy similarly sized cells, crack open the "battery", and start using the new technology.


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## Shotgun (Nov 24, 2020)

b4autodark said:


> The only thing I don't like about battery tools is if they don't work they are seemingly throw aways. No one around here will look at them. It's a shame to have a $300 unit that needs a $10 switch and have to throw it.



I bought the 60V Craftsman push mower, and it just died on me at about the third use.  I bought it at end of season, so "third use" was about 6months.  Called Craftsman, and they wanted all sorts of proof of purchase and stuff I didn't have.  Screw 'em.  I took it apart and there was a 1/4" faston tab that had burned off.  Crimped another on, and made sure it was nice an tight.  Been running like a champ ever since.


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## Tozguy (Nov 24, 2020)

tjb said:


> Their Li-Ion flashlights are great.


All three Li-ion shop lights of different brands that I use are truly AWESOME, can't be beat by any corded or gas powered one


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## Tozguy (Nov 24, 2020)

Shotgun said:


> I bought the 60V Craftsman push mower, and it just died on me at about the third use.  I bought it at end of season, so "third use" was about 6months.  Called Craftsman, and they wanted all sorts of proof of purchase and stuff I didn't have.  Screw 'em.  I took it apart and there was a 1/4" faston tab that had burned off.  Crimped another on, and made sure it was nice an tight.  Been running like a champ ever since.


Good to know that they can be fixed. I dread the thought of making a claim on warranty. 
What do you think of the cutting blade on your Craftsman?
The blade on my 21'' Greenworks is much lighter than the blades I have seen on gas mowers. I sure hope it lasts because finding a spare blade has been a challenge so far.


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## Tozguy (Nov 24, 2020)

Way to go Craftsman!





						42-in. Battery-Powered TURNTIGHT™ Riding Mower (E225) | CRAFTSMAN
					

This compact, eco-friendly riding mower features a lithium-ion 56V battery. Delivering energy efficient cutting with a 2250 watt-hour battery, its clean electric power will save maintenance time ...




					www.craftsman.com


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## Shotgun (Nov 24, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> Good to know that they can be fixed. I dread the thought of making a claim on warranty.
> What do you think of the cutting blade on your Craftsman?
> The blade on my 21'' Greenworks is much lighter than the blades I have seen on gas mowers. I sure hope it lasts because finding a spare blade has been a challenge so far.



Seems to be a fairly decent blade, if not thicker than most.  These things are actually really simple to repair.  There is a battery, a motor, and a switch.  A couple safety lockout to complicate things, but those are basically funny shaped switches.  A few indicators for battery monitoring, but those can be torn off and the rest of the system won't know it.  That's about it.


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## Aaron_W (Nov 26, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> Terry, Thanks for your thoughts on the Dewalt. Most of my comparisons of battery powered tools to gas or corded tools have been like 'taking a knife to a gunfight'.



Yes, this isn't always obvious until you use them side by side. Cordless is great for a lot of things and they are very handy, but there are still places for corded, gas and air tools. I recently bought a Milwaukee corded drill because I was drilling holes in angle iron for a cart I was making. It is just their basic 3/8" drill too, not a heavy duty monster. Drilling steel with the corded drill made my Makita look like a toy. 

The Makita is not out of work though, still my favorite handy drill and screw gun.


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## tjb (Nov 26, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Yes, this isn't always obvious until you use them side by side. Cordless is great for a lot of things and they are very handy, but there are still places for corded, gas and air tools. I recently bought a Milwaukee corded drill because I was drilling holes in angle iron for a cart I was making. It is just their basic 3/8" drill too, not a heavy duty monster. Drilling steel with the corded drill made my Makita look like a toy.
> 
> The Makita is not out of work though, still my favorite handy drill and screw gun.


I do the same thing.  I have a corded drill for heavy duty stuff, and a battery powered for less intense work.  Same thing with impact wrenches:  1/2" and 3/8" drives in both.  Whenever possible, I pick up the battery powered tools.  Otherwise, it's 120V tools.

Regards,
Terry


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## martik777 (Nov 27, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Only yesterday I was looking at the box with collection of now unusable battery powered drills etc. sans batteries. A new drill + Li-ion batteries from B&Q DIY store can be had for less than the cost of replacing NiCad batteries.
> 
> I now know about what happens to NiCads, the reverse current through the first to discharge, the capacity memory effect, the crystal growths, the rejuvenation stunts. Battery wise, my Makita has been the most long-lived, and I could get "me too" batteries and chargers for the Li-ion type.
> 
> ...


I recycle those chucks by using them for a pin vice or tapping small threads

You could also build your own Li-ion in the old packs with 18650's and the appropriate BMS PCB


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## Tozguy (Nov 27, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I love that caulking gun, and will probably never go back to the old hand squeeze type.



Great idea, but to use the batteries and charger already on hand it would have to be one of these:








						Milwaukee M18 18V Lithium-Ion Cordless 10 oz. Caulk and Adhesive Gun (Tool-Only) 2641-20 - The Home Depot
					

Super-strong and reliable, the Milwaukee M18 Lithium-Ion 18-Volt Cordless 10 oz. Caulk and Adhesive Gun (Tool-Only) delivers incredible pushing force for your toughest jobs and provides exceptional bead



					www.homedepot.com
				



and not before it comes on sale at a huge discount.


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## Downunder Bob (Nov 27, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> I bought a 14.4v Craftsman driver drill back in the mid to late nineties. I finally replaced the original pair of Nicads with Li-ions 2 years ago. Pretty impressed.  I'm interested in a battery chainsaw for camping, my Stihl 009L attracts too much attention in campgrounds.


I can highly recommend the Makita 18V brushless chainsaw for use in camping I had mine for about a year now and really very pleased with it. I believe they also make a larger model that uses two batteries thus 36V. but my small one does me for camping. however when it comes to cutting a years supply of firewood I revert to the bigger stihl.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 27, 2020)

Downunder Bob said:


> I can highly recommend the Makita 18V brushless chainsaw for use in camping I had mine for about a year now and really very pleased with it. I believe they also make a larger model that uses two batteries thus 36V. but my small one does me for camping. however when it comes to cutting a years supply of firewood I revert to the bigger stihl.



I have a full assortment, a 14 in. Homelite electric, an 18 in. Poulan Pro electric, a Stihl 009L, a Redmax G5300 and a Stihl 440. Some people say I have CAD (chainsaw acquisition disorder). Just one more, a cordless, would complete the collection. Over 15 cords currently split and stacked in the yard with more in the truck. I just can't stop.


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## Tim9 (Nov 27, 2020)

My first set of Craftsman NiCad was okay, but the batteries definitely didn’t hold up great. I’ve had extremely good service from my Ridgid Lithium cordless tools. 
  As far as chainsaw goes. I bought a Makita 15 amp corded chainsaw that has been awesome. As seldom as I need a chainsaw, I just didn’t want to deal with ethanol gasoline which plays havoc on small gas engines. The Makita is a top notch power tool. And if push came to shove, my generator will easily power it.


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## Aaron_W (Nov 28, 2020)

Tozguy said:


> Great idea, but to use the batteries and charger already on hand it would have to be one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yikes, the Ryobi was less than $40 on sale. I'd have to be doing a ton of caulking to pay $200. You can get the Ryobi caulking gun with a battery and charger for $70. That Milwaukee must be pretty fancy at that price.

As I mentioned in the other thread I kind of bought it as a joke. Being able to lay down an even 3 foot strip of caulking in one pass quickly won me over.


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