# Panel question: Extending ground and neutral bus bars



## WobblyHand (Feb 23, 2021)

Feeling kind of chipper that I figured out most of my electrical needs for my shop, I went to the local electrical supply place and bought stuff.  Laying out everything on the bench, I decide to remove the cover to the main panel in the basement.  I don't seem to have enough space on the ground and neutral bars to install the 6 additional circuits.  (2 120V 20A for machines, 1 120V 20A, 1 220V circuit for temporary heat, 2 120V 15A for lights and a belt grinder.)  I can install some of these circuits, (maybe 1/2) but then there is no more room on the bars to add any more.  If I added maybe 10-15 more holes, it would be enough.

If I recall correctly one is allowed 2 of the same gauge on ground, and only one wire on neutral.  Both bars seem short for the panel size.  Is it difficult to extend the bars?  What is needed to be done so that it is safe?  Are there special jumpers or lugs made for the purpose or just a large appropriately sized wire?  Does one need access to the back side of the panel to attach the bars?  It would seem one would need  back panel access.  A quick look didn't reveal any features on the panel that would make this easy except for the pre-drilled bus bar holes in the panel.   

What's annoying is that I had an electrician replace our exterior knob & tube wiring and put in a 100A sub-panel for my garage about 10 years ago.  Adding the bars would have been relatively easy at that time.  I don't remember getting a warning from the electrician that the box was basically full.

Eaton/Cutler-Hammer panel BR4040L200 / CL204040, uses standard BR breakers.


So any advice?   Sort of easy DIY?  Worst case I have to lift the panel away so I can get in some retaining fastener for the bars?  Main disconnect is outside, so this is a warmer day activity.  Not scared of electrical work - understand more than the basics, but haven't done this kind of panel activity before.  I've worked with much higher voltages in work settings, and understand what not to do.  (TWT's, other HV devices)


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## talvare (Feb 23, 2021)

Looks like you have access to the sides of the panel. You could install something like one of these:


			Amazon.com : insulated neutral bar
		


Ted


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## WobblyHand (Feb 23, 2021)

Yes, I do have side access.  Thanks for the link.  Think I'll get a ground bar kit for the panel and see if there's an equivalent neutral extender, that's made for the panel.  If there's no premade extender that is made for the panel, something like that would work great.  I'll ask at the supply house what the requirements are for the interconnect between respective bars.  (Ground bar to extension ground bar, Neutral bar to neutral extension bar.)  Don't want to have to redo the work, and want it to be safe.  Everything I see so far is telling me it's not too bad.


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## markba633csi (Feb 23, 2021)

I think adding bars is fine.  I would strap two or more jumper wires to connect them, for redundancy
Be safe
-Mark


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## WobblyHand (Feb 23, 2021)

I agree with adding jumpers.  Not going to trust a self threaded hole for a safety ground!  Not sure what the minimum size wire required is.  I'll find out.  Doubling the holes for the jumpers may give me grief on the original ground bar.  There are no spare holes right now.  I'll figure it out.  Might have to extend a ground (if that's allowed).  

I have some ancient brass wire nuts from my long gone grandfather that I might be able to use.  He was an electrician.  I have a lot of his old tools and stuff that he used, buckets of wire nuts and dies used for old gas lines, and plastering tools. In WWII my grandfather was a first class electrician and my dad a second class.  Both worked in the Charlestown (Boston) Navy Yard wiring ships, sometimes side by side.


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## aliva (Feb 23, 2021)

Just add a pony panel, also known as a sub panel, feed it from the main breaker, or add a dedicated break of the appropriate size to the existing panel. No screwing around with buss bars.


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## WobblyHand (Feb 23, 2021)

Ordinarily, I'd agree.  There's no place to hang the panel (no normal wall!)  There are brick pillars in my basement about 8-10 feet apart.  Granite exterior walls.  Nothing nearby to mount the panel to.  The joys of a house built in 1851.

The ground bar extension is pretty easy.  I have one.  I also have a neutral bar, which is more of a replacement rather than an extension.  It's really not well suited for my panel.  The neutral bar I just bought would need to be modified to fit.  Yes, I could machine it!  But first I will have to check the link above and see if the other item better.  Absolute worst case, (and really not that hard) I could shorten the bar.  And drill a weird hole pattern...

Following the link above, in the question and answers section, the manufacturer of the bar claims it is not for extending the neutral.  This may be for liability issues, but it makes me wonder.

My panel is no long manufactured by Eaton. I have found no "legitimate" info on extending a neutral yet.  Lot's of youtubers, but none that I have found that I would bet my house on!  In the old days, the ground bar kits were part of the catalog, but not any neutral bars.  Wonder why that is?


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## rwm (Feb 23, 2021)

I may be missing something here? Can't you just swap out the bars for longer ones? 
Robert


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## WobblyHand (Feb 23, 2021)

Ground bar is easy, I have a bar.  A longer Isolated Neutral bar apparently was never made for the panel by the manufacturer.  Might be important to my home owner's policy.  Insurance companies are funny that way.  The neutral bar I bought locally doesn't fit.  (Made by a different manufacturer, definitely not tested in my panel.)  Seems I have several choices.  1) Bite the bullet and upgrade the whole panel.  $$$$  2) I can alter the neutral bar length and make it fit in the space somehow.  3) Remove the old neutral bar and put in the new unmodified one.  The new bar is more compact, (double decker) which probably will require a lot of work - basically rewiring 1/3 of the whole panel.

Obviously #2 is the cheapest option at the moment, and probably the easiest to accomplish labor wise.  #3 might be better, but it's a pain (for me) as it would just take longer.  #1 is undoubtedly the answer according to _any_ insurance company.  #1 seems like it can spiral in cost, since it would require updating things due to code.  2020 NEC has made some changes, some of them costly.


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## rwm (Feb 23, 2021)

I truly think any of those options are OK. If there is a bar available with more holes, I would do that. Rewiring the panel is not as bad as it sounds. Your panel look nice and tidy.  No matter what you do, I don't think anyone will figure it out after the fire unless you tell them.
Robert


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## WobblyHand (Feb 23, 2021)

No factory isolated neutral bar with more holes.  Don't think they ever made a longer one.  I've looked.  Panel is also no longer in production.  I understand your joke, but "those guys" never want to pay out...  And I sure as #@%! don't want a fire anyways.  This house was built before the Civil War, so it's my civic duty to pass it along relatively intact for the next caretakers/owners.  

When my house was built, the ship _America_ won the first America's Cup race, _Millard Fillmore_ was President, _Western Union_ was founded, _Moby Dick_ was published, _the great flood_ nearly destroyed Des Moines, the _YMCA_ was founded, a machine to make ice was patented, and house sparrows were released in Brooklyn NY.  So I'm just a blip in my home's history.


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## rwm (Feb 23, 2021)

That's pretty cool! Definitely take good care of her.
Robert


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## markba633csi (Feb 24, 2021)

Remember the ground and neutral are tied together, usually at the pole. So what if they are tied at the breaker box also? No big deal as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose it's not code.  I don't agree with the code on a few things, this being one of them.
The main thing is you don't want the neutral (center tap) from the pole-pig to float but that's the power company's domain. If it did come loose, and your ground and neutral are tied at your end, you would be (hopefully) saved by your own ground from the house water pipes.
-Mark


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## Flyinfool (Feb 24, 2021)

I added an extra neutral and ground bar to my box 30 something years ago. I have had the city electrical inspector poking his nose into my box and he said nothing. The bar I used was from a local big box store. for connection I used 2 jumpers of the biggest wire both bars could handle.


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