# D1-5 5c collet chuck - runout problem, maybe?



## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

Silly me, I would have liked to have thought that I could take my 3 jaw D1-5 chuck off the spindle and attach a D1-5 5c collet chuck right up.  Put a part in a collet, pulled it up tight and the runout was easily visible.  So I took a dial indicator and checked to 5c taper for runout.  I got a maximum of 0.015”.  Obviously that doesn’t cut it!

What should be my next step?  Dismount and remount in same location or rotate it 90 degrees and mount, remeasure.....experts?


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## RJSakowski (Apr 1, 2019)

Is the D-5 mount integral to the chuck? If it is a separate backing plate, there may be some debris caught between the two.  If it is a single piece, I would try to determine where the problem occurs.  You could be looking at the spindle, ythe chuck, the collet or the test piece.  Rotate the chuck to the point of maximum runout and mark the position of the chuck.  Remove the chuck and rotate.  Measure the runout again and note where the maximum runout occurs.  If it stayed with the chuck, the problem is somewhere in the chuck system.  If it stays with the spindle, there may be a problem with the spindle.  Next, use another collet and test piece and again check runout.  If runout changes, your problem is with the collet and/or test piece.   If it remains the same, the problem is the chuck.   

Needless to say, check all your mating surfaces for possible foreign material or damage.


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## JimDawson (Apr 1, 2019)

If RJ's suggestions fail, you might take a look at this thread.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/rant-5c-collets-chuck-d1-4-cam-lock.23838/


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## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

yes, the D-5 mount is integral to the chuck

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5C-5-Colle...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 

the above is the chuck...


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## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

I wiped the mating surfaces with acetone and then used compressed air to blow anything off.  I rotated the chuck 180 degrees and it was still out 0.015”.

I removed the chuck and checked my mounting plate on my PM lathe.  I checked in 3 places.  The photo below shows.  I checked on the taper OD, face of the taper and the mounting surface.  The needle didn’t even budge on the indicator.




This I believe points to the 5c collet chuck. 

I will contact the vendor.....


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## Cadillac (Apr 1, 2019)

Blue the taper seat on chuck and remount on lathe to check the contact pattern on nose taper. Could use a heavy coat of sharpie and be quick but careful seating. You’ve adjusted the pins on chuck correctly?


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## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

I contacted vendor whom I have bought a number of other things from and he is sending out replacement tomorrow along with UPS prepaid shipping label to return defective unit.  If both defective he has instructed me to package in same box, UPS will get new weight and they will return my money.  Good customer service.  I hope the replacement unit is fine.  Stay tuned!


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## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

I rechecked all the pins on the chuck and a few of them werent in the locked "zone" so I adjusted the few that werent right and one that was way off and now I have it down to 0.004" runout where before it was 0.015".  So I am headed in the right direction.  I will try to see if I can get it down to 0.001", specs call for a total of 0.0006", so 0.001" would be ok.

If I can get it down to my acceptable level that would be great as I could call the supplier back and have him hold up.  ITs always a hassle returning things so I would rather work at getting it correct than having to go to Mr UPS.


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## darkzero (Apr 1, 2019)

Firstgear said:


> I rechecked all the pins on the chuck and a few of them werent in the locked "zone" so I adjusted the few that werent right and one that was way off and now I have it down to 0.004" runout where before it was 0.015".  So I am headed in the right direction.  I will try to see if I can get it down to 0.001", specs call for a total of 0.0006", so 0.001" would be ok.
> 
> If I can get it down to my acceptable level that would be great as I could call the supplier back and have him hold up.  ITs always a hassle returning things so I would rather work at getting it correct than having to go to Mr UPS.



Well you're on the right path. Try clocking/indexing the pins & test again, sometimes that helps especially with integral chucks. By clocking I mean taking the chuck off, rotate & remount. D1-5 so you got 6 tries. If you find one position that is acceptable, make a mark. I have a mark on my spindle as well as on all my chucks.


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## mikey (Apr 1, 2019)

All camlock chucks are "supposed" to seat on the spindle register to assure accuracy but as we all know, this is often not the case. My suggestion is to put a Sharpie mark on the chuck and the spindle and mount it. Check static run out and then remove and reinstall the chuck by clocking it one hole over. On the second install, the Sharpie mark on the chuck will be one hole away from the Sharpie mark on the spindle. On the third, it will be two holes over and so on. Check run out each time and look for the mounting position with the lowest run out. Be sure you indicator needle is on the chuck taper and nowhere else. Once you find the position of lowest run out, check the run out in several places within the taper to be sure it is consistent. Then you can decide if the chuck is acceptable.

EDIT: Will and I have the same idea.


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## darkzero (Apr 1, 2019)

mikey said:


> EDIT: Will and I have the same idea.



But of course you always explain much better & in greater detail than I do. I'm too lazy to type sometimes.


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## JimDawson (Apr 1, 2019)

Also check the set screw for the collet index pin. It may be too tight and pushing the collet over.  You may have to do a bit of filing on it. I would remove it for testing just to eliminate that as a possible issue.


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## mksj (Apr 1, 2019)

A few notes/additions to above. When you get a new chuck, you always need to set the depth of the locking pins and that the camlocks when fully locked are between the two indicator marks typically shown in the manual. As other mentioned you need to always make sure everything is absolutely clean when mounting the chuck. If your other chucks are running true and the new one is not, then the spindle/mount on the lathe is not the issue, but worth checking.  Sometimes the mating surfaces do not line up (or very tight), or the pins need to be torqued down more. I clean the pins and lube them, torque snugly all the pins, going around and then do a second pass with higher torque. As others have mentioned you can clock the chuck to find the index point that gives the least amount of runout. I do that all the time, my current lathe has an index point marked on the spindle.

When a manufacture quotes a spec. of 0.0006" it is not with the collet, and it is hit or miss if you even will get close to that. The 5C collets specs. is around 0.0006". To measure runout, put a test indicator on the inside flange of the chuck where the 5C collet flange contacts the chuck and check the mating surface TIR.  The chuck body is not a good indicator.  As Jim mentioned, the collet might be cocking a bit due to the collet pin or also poor seating of the collet, if that is the case you will get skewing of the test bar, the readings will get worse as you move away from the collet. I have a set-tru type 5C, so I can dial down the TIR to under 0.0002" near the collet clamping a 3/4" ground rod, at 6-8" out it is still under 0.001".

I put a small amount of way oil on the 5C collet threads and outer body, as it makes it slide into the chuck easier and thread. Keep the clamping surface clean and oil free for maximum clamping ability.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 1, 2019)

The other issue not addressed yet is that the back plate face should pull down tight to the spindle face, with no gap at all.  Use a strong flashlight from behind carefully looking for light leaking through the gap at all clock positions.  This issue is usually caused by a poor fit between the spindle taper and the back plate taper (or integral chuck taper.)  If you find that problem, address it before any other.  Tell me what you find and we will go from there.  It is a common problem...


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## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

When I have checked runout on the 5c collet chuck here is where I have indicated.  The taper that the collet is drawn tight into.


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## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

mikey said:


> All camlock chucks are "supposed" to seat on the spindle register to assure accuracy but as we all know, this is often not the case.


this is what I thought....


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## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

Here is where the indicator now rests...between the two marks.  The drawing is from South Bend Lathe Co.


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## mksj (Apr 1, 2019)

You have covered the bases correctly, which is good. I went through two of these direct mount 5C Chinese chucks and never could get them better than 0.007" TIR on a direct mount D1-4. It is hit or miss with these chucks. The reviews with the Accusize are either good or bad. At least their follow-up is better than other vendors. Boils down to the quality of the chucks and luck if they are not well made. I went through four 5C chucks and ended up with a Bison/TMX. Either direct mount or set-tru, the quality is there. I consider I went through 3 chucks getting to the Bison, so in the end game I would have been better off buying a better chuck up front. There are other 5C collet options, most are more expensive. I am dismayed that there are so few decent options on 5C chucks, Shar's use to carry a  set-tru type 5C chuck (same as the LatheMaster I believe), but no longer and it only had a D1-4 back plate. 

I do not feel you should buy a chuck and then try to grind it to meet spec., so pretty much leaves the Bision/TMX Set-Tru if you can't get the Accusize dialed in and need the accuracy. Gator has a similar version, price difference and issues with quality, I opted not to buy one for the $200 price difference. Been down that road, one too many times. I have 3 quality chucks that I use after having been through quite a few other ones.


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## Firstgear (Apr 1, 2019)

mksj said:


> You have covered the bases correctly, which is good. I went through two of these direct mount 5C Chinese chucks and never could get them better than 0.007" TIR on a direct mount D1-4. It is hit or miss with these chucks. The reviews with the Accusize are either good or bad. At least their follow-up is better than other vendors. Boils down to the quality of the chucks and luck if they are not well made. I went through four 5C chucks and ended up with a Bison/TMX. Either direct mount or set-tru, the quality is there. I consider I went through 3 chucks getting to the Bison, so in the end game I would have been better off buying a better chuck up front. There are other 5C collet options, most are more expensive. I am dismayed that there are so few decent options on 5C chucks, Shar's use to carry a  set-tru type 5C chuck (same as the LatheMaster I believe), but no longer and it only had a D1-4 back plate.
> 
> I do not feel you should buy a chuck and then try to grind it to meet spec., so pretty much leaves the Bision/TMX Set-Tru if you can't get the Accusize dialed in and need the accuracy. Gator has a similar version, price difference and issues with quality, I opted not to buy one for the $200 price difference. Been down that road, one too many times. I have 3 quality chucks that I use after having been through quite a few other ones.


Bison Set Tru 5c collet chuck with d1-5 is $1024 at Penn.  slow exhale!


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## mksj (Apr 1, 2019)

Bison 5C set-Tru $645


			Bison 5C Set Tru Collet Chuck
		

Bison Back Plate $260








						New Bison 5" Set-Tru Lathe Chuck Adapter / Back Plate. D5 D1-5  $438 Retail  | eBay
					

New Bison 5" Set-Tru Chuck Adapter / Back Plate. D1-5 Mount type. Made in Poland.



					www.ebay.com
				




Also an option








						5-C Collet Chuck D1-5 at Grizzly.com
					

We are proud to offer Bison Lathe chucks. This well respected brand of chucks has been the long accepted standard for high quality European work holding technology.<p>These 5-C collet chucks are made of high quality steel forgings and have a concentricity of 0.0004" (four ten-thousandths of an...




					www.grizzly.com
				




You can use a Gator Back Set-Tru Plate which runs around $150 from Ajax Industries or just call them, it is what I use on my ER-40 chuck and same as Bison. Check around. I purchased my 5C set-tru from them and it ended up around $800 (a couple of years ago) with the Bison back plate, Penn. is always way over the top.  I am not saying the Accusize won't work, but if you plan on keeping the chuck for a long time, buying quality once may be less expensive over the long haul. Also consider a direct mount Bison above.

I agree it is like a big hole in your pocket. When I tooled up the lathe, I had no idea it would cost so much. But once it is done, it made turning so much easier and I stopped having to buy replacements for stuff that didn't work.


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## Firstgear (Apr 2, 2019)

Here are the results of clocking the collet chuck around through 6 positions.  Starting at position 4 I put an additional length of bar on the key that tightens the collet.  Did it make a difference?  Who knows?  I did it for position 4,5 and 6.

Now I need to go back to position 4 and see if I can improve or worse yet, go backwards (ugh!).  I will do it with just me pushing on the bar and measure and then with the breaker bar and measure.  I am guessing it doesn’t make much if any difference.  I say this because I am a big guy, 6’3” and have some omph behind me.

Here are my tabulated results:


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## Firstgear (Apr 2, 2019)

I went back to position 4 and tightened by hand and then used the breaker bar on it, got the same readings, which is good news.  I took my air line and blew off the mating surfaces really well. 

Here is what I got....less than 0.001”.  If I had to call it, about 0.00075”.

I think given what I have and paid for it, about $300, I will check the next one which is due in the next day or so and keep one of them.  If I get to a situation where I need better results I have the 4 jaw high precision chuck from PM I can always go to.  

So now to try some parts and see how things go.  This will nothing strenuous, but a good first shot!  I will post more on how I thought the machining went as well as what I get on the next collet chuck.


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## Cadillac (Apr 2, 2019)

The cam locks on the spindle do not need to be gorilla tight. Idk if their is a torque value. Thinking of what happens when camming in the studs. You have a round stud with a half moon cut out that gets engaged by a cam off the spindle six times. That cam system pulls the chuck onto the taper centering the chuck and gets seated when the flat of the chuck hits the spindle. 
 I e seen on some of my pins on a D1-4 have deformed alittle on the edges of the pins where the half moon is cut. I use my chuck key when tightening the cam locks and go around little by little till it’s tight. I wouldn’t recommend using any type of breaker or pipe to gain leverage I don’t think it’s necessary if not harmful. 
 If you go around and initial seat the chuck with light pressure then go and look at the flat surface with a flashlight can you see any gap? This is before cranking on cams. It will tell you if the taper is a touch long and by cranking on cams your forcing it to seat eventually?
 Good to hear you’ve gotten it down to a somewhat acceptable number.


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## darkzero (Apr 2, 2019)

Looks like #4 is a winner (my favorite number )

Still I wouldn't be happy with .001-.0007 for a collet chuck though, my scroll chucks have less tir than that but of course they are Set-Tru chucks. 

Also, no need to put extreme torque on the cam locks, hand tight is sufficient, especially for 6 of them. I have a D1-4 with 3 pins & I always hand tighten, it always repeats (accuracy). Edit: Cadillac beat me to it


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## Cadillac (Apr 2, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Looks like #4 is a winner (my favorite number )
> 
> Still I wouldn't be happy with .001-.0007 for a collet chuck though, my scroll chucks have less tir than that but of course they are Set-Tru chucks.
> 
> Also, no need to put extreme torque on the cam locks, hand tight is sufficient, especially for 6 of them. I have a D1-4 with 3 pins & I always hand tighten, it always repeats (accuracy). Edit: Cadillac beat me to it


 Works slow!


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## ddickey (Apr 2, 2019)

Can we see your cheater and wrench?


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## Firstgear (Apr 2, 2019)

ddickey said:


> Can we see your cheater and wrench?


Well, not so much a wrench.  I didn’t lay into it with this, it was all I could find in the garage.  This was a bracket for one of the cars that needed seat belts installed.  Haven’t put seat belts in it obviously.....but it worked....I have these horse stall rubber pads all over my inner garage.  Insulates and makes it easier on the feet.  They are 3/4” thick.  Bought them at Rural King.  Tractor Supply also has a version.  You can drop something on the floor and no big deal as they cushion whatever got dropped.


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## Janderso (Apr 2, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Looks like #4 is a winner (my favorite number )
> 
> Still I wouldn't be happy with .001-.0007 for a collet chuck though, my scroll chucks have less tir than that but of course they are Set-Tru chucks.
> 
> Also, no need to put extreme torque on the cam locks, hand tight is sufficient, especially for 6 of them. I have a D1-4 with 3 pins & I always hand tighten, it always repeats (accuracy). Edit: Cadillac beat me to it



I am new to cam locks, when I first got my lathe (d1-6) it had a 3 jaw mounted. I made sure the mark was between the lines. I had visible run out. I was told by this group to tighten the cam locks. When I did that the visible runout went away but one of the marks went beyond-out of range. I took off the chuck, tightened up the lug one turn and remounted. I now have less than .001" on the outside body of the 6" 3 jaw and the lugs are tight.
My new Bison 4 jaw, 10" is a thing of beauty, locks up perfect and less than .001" TIR on the body. being a 4 jaw, I can dial in very nicely.
I'm still hurting from the $$$$$. I will only cry once!


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## Firstgear (Apr 2, 2019)

Janderso said:


> I am new to cam locks, when I first got my lathe (d1-6) it had a 3 jaw mounted. I made sure the mark was between the lines. I had visible run out. I was told by this group to tighten the cam locks. When I did that the visible runout went away but one of the marks went beyond-out of range. I took off the chuck, tightened up the lug one turn and remounted. I now have less than .001" on the outside body of the 6" 3 jaw and the lugs are tight.
> My new Bison 4 jaw, 10" is a thing of beauty, locks up perfect and less than .001" TIR on the body. being a 4 jaw, I can dial in very nicely.
> I'm still hurting from the $$$$$. I will only cry once!


Nice!  Given where my experience lies I will get away with this for some time.  When I can utilize the DRO’s like breathing then I will be ready for some upgrades!


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## darkzero (Apr 2, 2019)

Firstgear said:


> Well, not so much a wrench.  I didn’t lay into it with this, it was all I could find in the garage.  This was a bracket for one of the cars that needed seat belts installed.  Haven’t put seat belts in it obviously.....but it worked....I have these horse stall rubber pads all over my inner garage.  Insulates and makes it easier on the feet.  They are 3/4” thick.  Bought them at Rural King.  Tractor Supply also has a version.  You can drop something on the floor and no big deal as they cushion whatever got dropped.
> 
> 
> View attachment 291796



  Poor camlocks! Haha. Please don't use that again!


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## darkzero (Apr 2, 2019)

Janderso said:


> I am new to cam locks, when I first got my lathe (d1-6) it had a 3 jaw mounted. I made sure the mark was between the lines. I had visible run out. I was told by this group to tighten the cam locks. When I did that the visible runout went away but one of the marks went beyond-out of range. I took off the chuck, tightened up the lug one turn and remounted. I now have less than .001" on the outside body of the 6" 3 jaw and the lugs are tight.
> My new Bison 4 jaw, 10" is a thing of beauty, locks up perfect and less than .001" TIR on the body. being a 4 jaw, I can dial in very nicely.
> I'm still hurting from the $$$$$. I will only cry once!



Nice! Yup sure does hurt buying an expensive quality chuck but after you recover you definitely won't regret it & be glad you did!


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## Firstgear (Apr 2, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Poor camlocks! Haha. Please don't use that again!


Ha!  Even bent that poor little bar!  No need to get physical like that again.....but those suckers sure were tight!


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## mksj (Apr 2, 2019)

I have noted on my new lathe that the chucks mount up very tight, and require you to torque up on the camlocks, reason why I will torque them up 2-3X as the chuck seats. The chucks were previously setup for another lathe, but the camlock engagement point was different, so I readjusted all of them so when torqued up they are between the two indicator marks. Getting off the chucks has been a bit difficult, I need to tap them with a soft blow mallet or clamp a bar in the chuck and give it a good tug. Not ideal, hope something will wear a bit with time. So even though the D1-X  spindle spec is standard, there are enough differences in production that the fitment can be very tight, which sounds like the case with yours.

Glad you got that worked out, the TIR you are getting is about as good as it gets with a direct mount. Now that you have some change back in your pocket, you should get yourself a 1/64th set of 5C collets. Even with that I sometimes have some difficulty clamping stock that is a few thousandth over spec. Thats when I breakout the ER40 chuck.


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## Firstgear (Apr 2, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Poor camlocks! Haha. Please don't use that again!


dont worry, they got over it!  HAHA!


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## Firstgear (Apr 2, 2019)

mksj said:


> I have noted on my new lathe that the chucks mount up very tight, and require you to torque up on the camlocks, reason why I will torque them up 2-3X as the chuck seats. The chucks were previously setup for another lathe, but the camlock engagement point was different, so I readjusted all of them so when torqued up they are between the two indicator marks. Getting off the chucks has been a bit difficult, I need to tap them with a soft blow mallet or clamp a bar in the chuck and give it a good tug. Not ideal, hope something will wear a bit with time. So even though the D1-X  spindle spec is standard, there are enough differences in production that the fitment can be very tight, which sounds like the case with yours.
> 
> Glad you got that worked out, the TIR you are getting is about as good as it gets with a direct mount. Now that you have some change back in your pocket, you should get yourself a 1/64th set of 5C collets. Even with that I sometimes have some difficulty clamping stock that is a few thousandth over spec. Thats when I breakout the ER40 chuck.


when I bought my equipment from PM, I also bought the 1/64th increment 5C collet set.  I don't have an ER40 chuck, yet...but I have the ER40 collets.  I am getting another 5C collet chuck via UPS and will compare the two and one will go back to the supplier.  They have been very good to me over this.


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