# Can I Reverse This 1ph 230V Taiwanese Motor



## Canuck75 (Aug 18, 2014)

I looked at all the threads in this forum and found one thread which was on topic buit dealt with a Chinese 110V motor. The 110V motors have different wiring colours/numbers so still need some help.


I've included a full wiring diagram exactly as it is currently wired up on my King PDM30 (RF31 style) bench mill. I am curious if, by using a rotary switch, I can reverse this motor by switching some of the wires? If so which ones?

Would appreciate any help.


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## Ulma Doctor (Aug 18, 2014)

Yes,
 you can use a drum(rotary) switch to reverse directions.
the wires are 5 and 6 are responsible for the direction the motor turns.
if wire 4 and 5 are paired up it will turn one direction. 
conversely, if you pair wire 4 with wire 6 it will rotate the opposite direction in relation to the 4,5 pairing.

if you can post a picture of the drum switch and the motor wiring i could easily figure out a solution for you.
we can configure in a couple different ways.

shoot me a PM when you are ready, i'll walk you through it.


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## Canuck75 (Aug 18, 2014)

Ulma Doctor said:


> Yes,
> you can use a drum(rotary) switch to reverse directions.
> the wires are 5 and 6 are responsible for the direction the motor turns.
> if wire 4 and 5 are paired up it will turn one direction.
> ...




The switch is a Dayton with 5 terminals as per these pictures.






REV position in the following left hand picture and FWD position in the right hand picture.




The motor wiring is exactly as per the diagram I attached to my thread.


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## Ulma Doctor (Aug 18, 2014)

the wiring will go like this in reference to photos above:


     x(not used)________________wire 4



wire 6             _______________________ wire 5



    2/3 paired wire______________________x (not used)

click on image below for larger picture...




does this make any sense ? 
 i might be able to explain differently if necessary


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## hman (Aug 19, 2014)

*GAWWWW-LEEEEE youse guys!!! * I JUST got done writing up the text for what I was going to start as a new thread here, regarding that very same Dayton drum switch and a 230 volt reversing motor.  And here ya done got it started already!!!

Anyway, the following is the ORIGINAL text and photos I was about to post.  It's posed as a question, because I'm not _absolutely_ sure my "new" solution is valid.  If it sounds like it's just a slight bit off-topic, my apologies.  I'm just a bit too lazy to re-write the whole durn thing:

 == == == == == == == == == == == == == 

About a month ago I bought a vintage (1990) Grizzly DF1224G/G1003 12x24 lathe.  As purchased, it would run OK in reverse but only buzz when switched to forward.  When I got it home I checked the existing drum-type switch, and it just about fell apart in my hands.  The 2HP motor had been wired for 115 volts, which spec’d out at 18 amps - no wonder the switch was toast!

I bought a new Dayton 2X440 drum switch and started puzzling out how to wire it.  The data plate inside the motor, as well as what diagrams I could find in the manual, called for connecting the two run coils (motor wires 1-3 and 2-4) in series, and connecting the start coil (motor wires 5-6) between the common point (2&3) and L2.  To reverse the motor, the 5-6 leads are interchanged.  The photo (thanks to Chris, aka Shadowdog500) shows a similar (3/4HP) motor’s connection data plate.




Unfortunately, the above scheme requires 6 conductors between the motor and the switch enclosure (1, 2-3, 4, 5, 6, and ground).  Six conductor cables are about as easy to find as hen’s teeth!  In addition, because the Dayton switch has only 6 contacts, there’s no choice but to leave L1 connected to the motor at all times!  Yes, I did mount a local service disconnect ... but nevertheless, leaving a motor connected to a live wire gives me the willies.  See schematic below. 




Recently I found another Grizzly 12x24 lathe manual to download, and it had what I *think* is a viable alternative.  The idea is to permanently wire one end of the start winding (5) to the common point between the run windings (2-3), then switch the other end of the start winding (6) between L1 and L2. 

In theory, the common point (2-3-5) will be at neutral potential, so the start winding, whose other end is switched to either L1 or L2, will always be seeing just a nominal 115 volts (then go to zero when the centrifugal switch kicks out).  

The nice thing about this scheme is that (1) it only requires 4 conductors between the motor and switch box, and (2) BOTH L1 and L2 are safely disconnected when the switch is set to the center position.




My question for any motor electricians here is:  Am I OK on this?  What might I be missing?

PS - The data sheet that came with the Dayton drum switch was absolutely no joy.  Note that both of the schematics for “Single Phase” and “Induct. Repulsion” indicate a continuous connection between one side of the power line and the motor.




Thanks!


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## hman (Aug 19, 2014)

Canuck75 -

I just noticed something about your switch photos.  Your switch appears to have just 5 contact, whereas mine has 6.  Did you remove one, or do we have different switches?  Yours is labeled 2X440A, and I'm not sure if mine has the appended A or not (it's in Oregon, and I'm in Arizona).  




I guess if somebody says my scheme is OK and you wanted to copy it, you could move one of the center contacts to the end.  I don't use one of the center contacts.

I really hope this all works out!


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## Canuck75 (Aug 19, 2014)

hman said:


> Canuck75 -
> 
> I just noticed something about your switch photos.  Your switch appears to have just 5 contact, whereas mine has 6.  Did you remove one, or do we have different switches?  Yours is labeled 2X440A, and I'm not sure if mine has the appended A or not (it's in Oregon, and I'm in Arizona).
> 
> ...






Thanks for the replies and advice. First off I was given the Dayton switch, and, based on your question and the diagram inside the switch I see it is indeed missing one of the contact arms at position 1. This will be the first thing to correct if necessary.

I was also glad to read your discussion about the motor still having a live lead attached to it when the switch is in the OFF position due to these limited contact switches. This really worried me.

I checked my SB lathe which has a contactor panel on the back controlling a FWD/REV 2hp 1ph motor, and I see all the wires (5 plus the ground) out of the motor run to the contactor blocks in the panel. The blocks are wired the same except for a couple of jumpers which switch the FWD/REV wires. Looks easy but I noticed that there are only coloured wires out of the motor, no numbers and no diagram that I could find_. _Hope I don't have to take that apart.

I will give your information a good study to try and resolve my setup and in the meantime any other advice would be appreciated.

As an afterthought here is the diagram from inside the mill motor cover. Compare that to the drawing I posted of how my machine is currently wired and it shows a slight difference in that Red 4 (from the motor diagram) has to be going through the reset breaker solo wheras my machine has the  4 and  6 motor leads tied together prior to the reset breaker then on to the Black power wire. Notice it doesn't show a reverse setup which got me going on this in the first place.     




Thanks
Canuck75


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## hman (Aug 19, 2014)

Canuck -

I guess the whole thing can get more and more confusing as you add components like contactors, etc.  And then there's the issue of which wire number/color goes where and does what.  I've looked at wiring diagrams from several Chinese tools, and the lack of detail (especially the internal operation of the contactors) can rapidly add to the fun.  Many times, all they'll show is terminal numbers/letters.  Can you predict that a replacement component will use the same scheme?  Let's roll the dice!

That said, contactors are necessary if you want to have pushbutton start/stop controls, if your lathe has a directional switch on the carriage, etc.  My lathe is old enough that it had none of those, just a reverse-stop-forward switch on the headstock.  I didn't want to buy a bunch of new stuff and tackle a redesign of the system - just hit the "easy button," get a heavy-duty replacement for the original switch, and get going.

You'll notice lots of detail on my schematics.  I did take the time to do enough tracing that I could understand where each wire went and what each terminal did.  Lots of work up front, but if I ever have to get in there again, I'll have something complete to refer to.  

I've also learned, from this discussion, Shadowdog500's post, and some additional info I found on the interweb, that a goodly number of Chinese 115/230 volt 6-wire motors seem to be wired (and numbered) similarly (colors optional).  Wires 1-3 and 2-4 are the two run windings, parallel for 115 volts, series for 230 volts; 5-6 are the start winding.  Each individual winding likes 115 volts.  You get reversal by either leaving the run winding connections the same and inverting the polarity of the start winding (as I did), or by keeping the start winding the same and inverting the run winding.  The latter scheme is shown in the last diagram at ​http://www.justanswer.com/electrical/7qqvn-trying-wire-dayton-2x440a-drum-switch-foward-reverse.html 



Canuck75 said:


> As an afterthought here is the diagram from inside the mill motor cover. Compare that to the drawing I posted of how my machine is currently wired and it shows a slight difference in that Red 4 (from the motor diagram) has to be going through the reset breaker solo wheras my machine has the 4 and 6 motor leads tied together prior to the reset breaker then on to the Black power wire. Notice it doesn't show a reverse setup which got me going on this in the first place.



Hard to decipher without knowing all that's going on at the other end of the various colored wires.  It might also be complicated by the fact that some drum switches have a different connection diagram.  Check the second-to-last connection diagram in the URL I gave above, and you'll see how the "other" switch does its thing.


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## Canuck75 (Aug 19, 2014)

hman said:


> Canuck -
> 
> I guess the whole thing can get more and more confusing as you add components like contactors, etc.  And then there's the issue of which wire number/color goes where and does what.  I've looked at wiring diagrams from several Chinese tools, and the lack of detail (especially the internal operation of the contactors) can rapidly add to the fun.  Many times, all they'll show is terminal numbers/letters.  Can you predict that a replacement component will use the same scheme?  Let's roll the dice!
> 
> ...





Thanks for the reply and all the information. I should be able to sort things out from here.

Canuck75


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## Canuck75 (Aug 21, 2014)

hman said:


> *GAWWWW-LEEEEE youse guys!!! * I JUST got done writing up the text for what I was going to start as a new thread here, regarding that very same Dayton drum switch and a 230 volt reversing motor.  And here ya done got it started already!!!
> 
> Anyway, the following is the ORIGINAL text and photos I was about to post.  It's posed as a question, because I'm not _absolutely_ sure my "new" solution is valid.  If it sounds like it's just a slight bit off-topic, my apologies.  I'm just a bit too lazy to re-write the whole durn thing:
> 
> ...




hman

Out of curiosity I looked at my SB lathe again to stretch my memory back to 1975 on how I set up the FWD/REV wiring. The lathe had a Westinghouse switch/motor/control panel for 550V 3ph power. I've only ever had 115/230V 1ph so I was delighted to discover that the contactor operating solenoids (blue covers at the bottom) used 115V 1ph 60hz power. After finding out how the contactor circuits worked, all the motor wires were extended and brought back to this box, then hooked up the same on each block except the two reversing wires being switched on the second block. The FWD/REV switch buttons on the front of the lathe only operate the appropriate solenoid which then close the circuits on that contactor block. As I remember it this was easy to do because the 2 blocks make 8 circuits available. There is an extra one on the left end of each block as well, so a total of 10 really. 

If one could find such a panel cheap in the scrap yards somewhere it would easily solve a lot of the problems discussed in this forum. The cheapest FWD/REV drum switch would then suffice to control the contactor blocks. Of note is that when the lathe is turned OFF there is no power on any of the motor leads period!

If I could find one of these for my mill I would grab it in a heartbeat.





Canuck75


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## Canuck75 (Aug 24, 2014)

rdhem2

Here is the data you asked for in pictures (worth a thousand words).









The hand diagram shows exact wire identification and colour. What I need most I guess is to confirm that switching BLK2/3 over to Red6 and switching BLK4 over to Red5 is the correct way to get REV because I have no idea what the wires are attched to inside the motor. If so, I'll work out a way and position to mount the DPDT switch. Also, are we saying that a normal 4 way house switch from HD, for instance, will do the job?.

At the moment this method appeals to me because it will allow me to keep the ON/OFF switch on the front and the current appearance of the mill.

Looking forward to your suggestions.

Thanks
Canuck75


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## rdhem2 (Aug 27, 2014)

Good Sir;
How is your reversing project going? I have held backfrom wasting your time because Ulma Dr.shot you the fix in the second reply.

A four way switch would work but would only be usable when the drill press has come to a complete stop.  There is no way to instantly reverse a single phase motor that I am aware of.  The motor must slow down enough to re-engage the centriugal switch in the motor its self.  Keep us posted until she is running and pileing up _*SWAR**F**!*_

- - - Updated - - -

 Good Sir;
How is your reversing project going? I have held backfrom wasting your time because Ulma Dr.shot you the fix in the second reply.

A four way switch would work but would only be usable when the drill press has come to a complete stop.  There is no way to instantly reverse a single phase motor that I am aware of.  The motor must slow down enough to re-engage the centriugal switch in the motor its self.  Keep us posted until she is running and pileing up _*SWAR**F**!*_


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## John Hasler (Aug 27, 2014)

Canuck75 said:


> rdhem2
> 
> Also, are we saying that a normal 4 way house switch from HD, for instance, will do the job?.
> 
> ...



No.  A 2HP motor will burn up a light switch.


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## Canuck75 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thanks for all the input gents, it gave me the courage to try switching the Red 5 and Red 6 wires and reverse worked without fuss.

Anxious to try this mod at minimum cost, I did indeed purchase a 4 way switch from HD, and, just had to make a 2 1/2" extender for the existing motor terminal box to accomodate the switch. Because there were 2 spare posts on the terminal block, I only needed to make a couple of 6" jumpers to hook it up without compromising a return to the original setup. Continued use of the original start/stop on the front keeps the look of the machine as well. 

I have run it at 3000 RPM for about 15 minutes in forward and reverse with no apparent heat build up in the switch. Since the motor will *always* be stopped when changing direction there will be no power on the 4 way and thus no arcing of the contacts when changing direction, so thought I would give it a try. Starting it in the highest speed draws the most current (noticeable spin up time difference) and so far no smell,heat, popping of the reset breaker. If it eventually does fry I'll get a beefier switch. Here is a look at how it turned out.







The reason I wanted to do this stemmed from using the boring head on large diameter holes where I needed to stick a short boring bar out the side of the of my 2" boring head. The way the carbide tips are brazed on these bars the normal rotation would have to be CCW, or, bore from the bottom up. Regrinding an existing bar tip to bore CW with down feed would not leave much of a tip so didn't consider this. A reverse capability means I don't have to get different boring bars. Now the true test will be if the switch stands up over time. We'll see. This was so much easier than trying to wire in a drum switch.  

So, once again thanks to everyone for their input. Would still like to hear any further advice or comments. I've got a thick enough skin so lets hear it.

Cheers
Canuck75


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## hman (Aug 27, 2014)

Canuck75 said:


> Thanks for all the input gents, it gave me the courage to try switching the Red 5 and Red 6 wires and reverse worked without fuss.
> 
> Anxious to try this mod at minimum cost, I did indeed purchase a 4 way switch from HD, and, just had to make a 2 1/2" extender for the existing motor terminal box to accomodate the switch. Because there were 2 spare posts on the terminal block, I only needed to make a couple of 6" jumpers to hook it up without compromising a return to the original setup. Continued use of the original start/stop on the front keeps the look of the machine as well.
> 
> I have run it at 3000 RPM for about 15 minutes in forward and reverse with no apparent heat build up in the switch. Since the motor will *always* be stopped when changing direction there will be no power on the 4 way and thus no arcing of the contacts when changing direction, so thought I would give it a try. Starting it in the highest speed draws the most current (noticeable spin up time difference) and so far no smell,heat, popping of the reset breaker. If it eventually does fry I'll get a beefier switch.



Congratulations!  Sounds like you did all the right things, and gave it a pretty thorough test as well.  I think your switch will probably hold up nicely.  IIRC, they're rated for something like 15 amps, and a 2HP motor (at least mine) draws around 8. 

I especially like your "Continued use of the original start/stop on the front keeps the look of the machine as well."  I've always tried to preserve the appearance and function of the original controls when making mods.  Nice extension on the motor terminal box!


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## rdhem2 (Aug 30, 2014)

Mr. Canuck75:

Very nice job on fitting that big old four way in the motor peckerhead.  Would never have thought you could make it fit!

Your switch is fine.  Because it is in the starting circuit, it only carries current until the motor comes up to speed and the starting switch opens.

Again,nice solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Canuck75 (Sep 10, 2014)

Have been out of town so just got to see the last few comments. Thanks for your views. I will certainly let you know if normal ops cooks the 4-way.

However, I would still like to get an answer to the question that when using a drum switch, there is still one hot lead from the 220V line (115V potential) on the motor when the switch is in the OFF position. All the wiring diagrams thus far show this same quirk!

Does this not matter? Personally I would prefer that no power is on the motor whatsoever when in the OFF position.

Anybody??


Canuck75


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## hman (Sep 10, 2014)

Canuck75 said:


> Have been out of town so just got to see the last few comments. Thanks for your views. I will certainly let you know if normal ops cooks the 4-way.
> 
> However, I would still like to get an answer to the question that when using a drum switch, there is still one hot lead from the 220V line (115V potential) on the motor when the switch is in the OFF position. All the wiring diagrams thus far show this same quirk!
> 
> ...



Look back at post #5 in this thread.  My second wiring diagram shows how to do it.

- John Herrmann


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## Canuck75 (Sep 10, 2014)

Thanks very much John, I'll apply my noggin to your second diagram once again to see if I want to switch over now that I have set it up with the 4-way. To start with I would need to assure myself that the numbered leads on my motor are properly identified to match up to your schematic.

You have said that a hot lead on the motor also gives you the willies, but based on what I have read on this forum, there must be a lot of motors out there wired up this way, so why no alarm bells?


Canuck75


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## hman (Sep 10, 2014)

Canuck75 said:


> You have said that a hot lead on the motor also gives you the willies, but based on what I have read on this forum, there must be a lot of motors out there wired up this way, so why no alarm bells?
> 
> Canuck75



My best guess is that others do what I originally did ... add a service disconnect nearby, or else plan to unplug the tool when servicing the motor.


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## Canuck75 (Aug 1, 2016)

After posting the question of reversing my 230v mill motor almost 2 years ago using a Dayton drum switch, I knew I would be revisiting the issue again. I thanked everyone at the time for their input, but the result was always the same, one of the "line" wires was left "hot" when in the OFF position. I temporarily used a 4-way house switch in conjunction with the original ON/OFF switch to solve the issue which worked okay, but was an extra switch I had to move.

For whatever reason, I had a look at the Dayton switch again the other day, and realized that there was room for another set of contact arms on the end of the mounting bars down at the bottom, and also room on the end of the control shaft for another single row rotating contact plate. Eureka!!, this would give a way to totally cut the power in the OFF position. The existing configuration of the Dayton gives an easy way to switch the Red5 and Red6 leads for FWD and REV and to break the one "line" lead in the OFF position, now, the new contacts would give a way to break the other "line" wire in the OFF position, but also making it "hot" in either the FWD and REV position.    

The Dayton moving copper parts are mounted on a non-conductive ferrule with 3/8" square shoulders and a 1/4" square bore to fit the control shaft, plus non-conductive spacers as required. To accomodate the extra contact plate on the end , I made a ferrule with a 3/8" square shoulders on both sides and 1/4" square bore, a spacer with a 3/8" square bore, a copper contact plate, and 2 brass contact arms with copper shoes riveted to them. The contact arms are .050" thick made from bolts. All the copper bits are from flattened out 1/2" copper pipe. A little milling was required on the back end of the non-conductive mounting bars to provide a flat spot to mount the new arms. Since the new arms and rotating contact plate took up some of the original space available for wires inside the box I added a small addition on the back of the Dayton to give some extra room. A total of 7 wires plus a ground from the motor wire terminal box are necessary. The sketch shows the wiring arrangement I used.   

This a solution for the "live wire" problem without having to buy more expensive switches or having to use contactor blocks. Also, there are no safety issues with this mod since the new parts are as well insulated/isolated as the original switch parts.


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## JimDawson (Aug 1, 2016)

Nice Job!


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