# How To Mount A Drill Chuck?



## airscale (Jun 24, 2016)

hello folks

Peter here, brand new to machining and the forum so please forgive the newbie question, but I know the expertise I need counsel from will be here 

I have just got my first lathe, but the work I want to create is very small - I am working on a 1/18 scale Supermarine Spitfire and things are generally tiny..

The stock I want to machine is mainly between 1 to 8mm in diameter so the 3 jaw chuck is too big to hold it. I bought a precision drill chuck with it that is supposed to go in the tailstock I think

My question is whether there is any way to mount this in the headstock? Can I remove the 3 jaw chuck and replace it with this? I have an arbor on it that seems to slot in the 3 jaw chuck, (and there seems to be a hole right through to the gearbox) but it is not stable or central

Or is there another way to hold work that is smaller than the closed 3 jaw chuck?

any ideas or suggestions?

yours in hope

Peter


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## mmcmdl (Jun 24, 2016)

If available , collets .


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## RJSakowski (Jun 24, 2016)

airscale said:


> hello folks
> 
> Peter here, brand new to machining and the forum so please forgive the newbie question, but I know the expertise I need counsel from will be here
> 
> ...



You can get Morse taper adapter to go from one size to another.  You can also get inexpensive Morse taper to Jacobs taper adapters.  Morse tapers used in the headstock without a force pushing or pulling in can work loose during use with potentially disastrous results.   

A collet system would be a better way to go, although more expensive, due to the need for a set of collets.  A typical way to go  would be to buy or make a backing plate to mount instead of your 3 jaw and machine it to fit the collet chuck.  This results in closer mounting to the spindle, important to control flexing, and typically less runout.

You would probably opt for an ER style collet. An ER20 will accommodate work from 1mm to 13mm.  An ER25, from 1mm to 16mm, and an ER32 from 1.5 to 20mm.

Tormach offers collet chucks for their TTS system which have a 3/4" shank which could be mounted in your 3 jaw or 4 jaw chuck.  The TTS chuck is around $30.  It's not ideal but would get you started.

Collet chucks are generally available on line.  Look on line for less expensive collets.


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## mikey (Jun 24, 2016)

I agree that collets would be the way to go - a drill chuck is just too inaccurate for the work you want to do. All lathes have an internal taper in the spindle and typically there will be a collet to match that taper, usually a Morse taper. You can simply make a drawbar that screws into the back of the collet and as you tighten it, it will lock the part and be as accurate as your spindle. Sherline does exactly this and it is very, very accurate.


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## intjonmiller (Jun 24, 2016)

ER collets for sure. And at the scale you're working the smaller, cheaper ER20 would be ample. (The number indicates maximum capacity in millimeters.) And unlike most other collet systems it closes at the front, so you can have a collet block (google it) mounted in a mill vise, for instance, and you don't have to remove the collet block from the vise in order to remove the part from the collet and insert another. It's a very cool system. 

What lathe do you have?


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## airscale (Jun 24, 2016)

Thank you gentlemen, very much for your advice

I was hoping I could aviod the expense of collets, but then if it was as easy as I thought to just use a drill chuck then everybody would be doing it I suppose

Sounds like ER20 collets are the answer, and I have found some at the same online store I got the Lathe from - (Axminster C2/300 Mini Lathe Sieg C2A).  I will need to get a holder too

Is the idea that an arbor is a friction fit into the chuck, or do you tighten the jaws onto it? The arbor I have (MT3 B16) seems to fit into the hole, but it does not lock solidly and centrally  like the pointed centering part that fits into the tailstock. The collet holder I looked at that goes with the ER20 Collets says MT2 which is the same as another Arbor I have, but that is too small for the headstock

I am sorry to ask what must seem ridiculously stupid questions - I have so much to learn and this is literally day one A, B C stage for me 

Thank you again for your patience

Peter


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## intjonmiller (Jun 24, 2016)

You're in the right place for beginner questions. Every member here remembers being a beginner, and a lot of us still are. You may occasionally catch someone here on a slightly more grumpy day than another, but there doesn't seem to be anyone here who looks down on another member for wanting to learn something others have already mastered. Crazy, right?  

I don't have many answers beyond the collet recommendation myself, as I'm not all that much further along than you have. As I mentioned in another thread yesterday I have tons of time to read, but very little time to practice, so I'm just regurgitating what I've read.


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## intjonmiller (Jun 24, 2016)

Sorry, I forgot to actually answer this part: 

A Morse taper is designed to be a friction fit, no tightening/drawing needed. I wasn't familiar with that model, but I looked it up and sure enough it has an MT3 headstock and MT2 tailstock. The good news is those are both very common sizes for all sorts of accessories. The bad news is they aren't the same. I have seen MT2 to MT3 adapters (and many other taper-to-taper adapters) but every time you introduce something like that you are adding another potential point of failure/flex/inaccuracy.


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## Bob Korves (Jun 24, 2016)

Some milling machines were/are equipped with Morse taper spindles.  A lot of drill presses also have MT spindles.  Drill presses generally do not have drawbars, only a friction fit of the tapers.  Milling machines with MT spindles have been built with and without drawbars.  In a drill press there is minimal side loading, and tapers usually stay put.  Milling machines have heavy side loading, and sometimes on the old machines without a drawbar the taper would come loose, usually damaging the work, the tool, the spindle, or all of them.  On a lathe, much work is concentric with the spindle, like drilling and reaming on the center line.  Turning, facing, and milling on a lathe is a whole different type of loading, and the tapers may come loose without a drawbar to keep them in.

Here is a pic of a couple vintage NOS Putnam MT3 end mills, one 7/8" and the other 1", probably at least 50 years old, they look like they were made last week.  I only kept them because I thought I might sometime want to put them in the tailstock of my lathe for finishing holes with a square bottom or shoulder.  I also have an adapter to fit them in my R8 mill spindle, but I don't think I have guts enough to try that, even though that was what they were designed for...


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## intjonmiller (Jun 24, 2016)

Interesting. I had read that Morse tapers were designed to not be drawn. Good to know.


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## extropic (Jun 24, 2016)

Jon has written that your lathe has a MT3 spindle taper. Based on that info, I recommend that you buy an ER40 Collet Chuck w/ integral MT3 shank threaded for a draw bar (not w/ a tang).

Here is a link to one example; http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-M12-MT3...hash=item415dbfb2a4:m:m7ACuA3wJL7sZUJYdWx4ZZw

I don't know anything about the quality, precision or seller of the linked item and just offer it as an example of the "type" recommended.

I recommend the shank that is tapped for a drawbar so that you can make one up out of a long bolt or all-thread and rest assured that the chuck is positively retained in the spindle. To remove the chuck, loosen the drawbar a couple of turns and rap the end (nut protecting the threads) to dislodge the mating tapers.

I recommend the ER40 type because of it's larger capacity. Plan ahead. As you build your capability, through increased knowledge, experience and tooling, projects will present themselves that you haven't foreseen. Even though the project that you have in mind (Spitfire) needs 8mm max, 40mm capability will come in handy before long. If the ER40 is uncomfortably large for your model work, buy it anyway. You can also buy an ER16 stub chuck and hold it in the ER40.

ER16 short straight shank example; http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-C1-ER16...664036?hash=item4173711124:g:hhUAAOxy4fVTACYB

Your collection of collets can be built piece by piece, as projects require, or in a complete set, if budget allows.

Be aware of the precision of the tooling that you buy. If TIR (Total Indicator Reading or Total Indicated Runout, same meaning) is not specified (guaranteed) be skeptical and ask. If they don't know or don't reply, IMO they are not likely to replace an unacceptable item (what warranty?). After you get your tooling, measure TIR to verify it's as expected. Only buy hardened and ground collet chucks, arbors and collets as they will give long service under any reasonable circumstances.

Please consider starting a thread, with pics of course, about your Spitfire build. Sounds like fun.


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## Andre (Jun 24, 2016)

If your drill chuck is in good shape, it can work very well as a workholding method providing it uses a threaded mount. Most good quality chucks hold around .003" or less in good shape, but that would be an estimate.

South Bend used to sell a drill chuck made to thread onto the spindle threads for center drilling the ends of shafts and small workholding. You could also hold the OD of the chuck in a 4 jaw to zero out runout.


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## Tozguy (Jun 25, 2016)

A drawbar is a must for holding an MT3-ER collet system in the spindle. With ER collets the TIR spec is better with smaller sizes so compare TIR before buying a larger collet chuck than you need.

There are also MT3 collets. MT3 collets are roughly the same price as ER collets but don't require a chuck. An MT3 collet has less range than an ER collet but is deeper.
http://www.busybeetools.com/products/collet-mt3-1-4in.html

If you already have a good drill chuck and an independant chuck (4 jaw) then Andre's idea to hold one in the other should work well with the advantage of having a through hole to hold long work.


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## John Hasler (Jun 25, 2016)

Andre said:


> South Bend used to sell a drill chuck made to thread onto the spindle threads for center drilling the ends of shafts and small workholding.


A spindle chuck.  My Logan came with one.    It's a Jacob's 59B.  3/4" capacity, a bore that matches the spindle bore, and less than .001" runout.    Makes a 3-jaw superfluous.


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## airscale (Jun 25, 2016)

thank you all very much - quite a lot to take in 

I have bought a collet and holder set which is 3MT and covers 0.5mm to 10mm, it was around £100 and as I saw some sets for £30 I thought it likely to be good quality. Actually I also think I could use a collet to hold a pin vise (holding the work) to go samller than that.

The kind of thing I will use it for is probably way away from what most lathe users would do, or at least a lot smaller. The example I got set upfor would be something like aircraft undercarriage legs - in the scale I work to thats about 5-8mm diameter, all the way down to trying to turn hexagonal stock into scale hose unions for engine bays etc - pretty much all in brass

this is the sort of scale, and I could have done with a lathe when I made the control column on the left..







I looked up draw bars and watched people make them on youtube but I can't seem to find where to buy them? When the collet set arrives it has a 12mm drawbar thread so I guess I can get some studding and nuts and try and make one - at least now I understand the principle of what it is and what it does - so thank you again

this is my new set-up and the drill chuck I was trying to use..




the collet set arrives on Tuesday so looking forward to that - I also saw you can hold a milling fitting in a collet so will have to try and find out more about that too

thanks again folks for your kindly welcome and helpful advice 

Peter


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## intjonmiller (Jun 27, 2016)

Very cool project! I really admire such detailed work. I never had the attention span or patience to even do the proper flashing cleanup on the Revell/Testors type model cars I did as a kid. I threw out the ones I found in my father's storage shed a while back because I was so embarrassed by the poor quality of the work. So this kind of work is always very impressive to me. 

Usually milling on the lathe is highly impractical because of the limited work envelope (the spindle isn't much higher than the cross slide, and there is a limit to the movement of the cross slide), and because a vertically-mounted lathe milling attachment leaves a lot to be desired in the rigidity department, relative to the broad mounting surface of even a relatively small mill, but in your case it may prove perfectly adequate as your materials are perfectly machinable and the scale certainly fits the envelope. I am very curious to hear how that works out when you try it.


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## extropic (Jun 27, 2016)

airscale,

When I read your OP and reference to 1/18 scale model, I had something much more course in my mind's eye.
Thanks so much for posting the pics of some of your work.  

It's mindboggling to imagine all the craftsmanship to create even the partial cockpit area you've shown us.

Very inspiring work there. Thanks again.


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## extropic (Jun 27, 2016)

By the way, for the small, light type of work that you've shown us, I think some milling capability on your lathe could be very useful and doable.
Clearly you're not short of patience, precision or a good helping of "common sense" in the area of metalwork.
A separate milling machine is usually the preferred option but you're the best judge of your requirements and resources.
I'm sure you'll get plenty of helpful input if you ask about milling on the lathe.


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## 12bolts (Jun 27, 2016)

Hi Peter


airscale said:


> I have bought a collet and holder set which is 3MT and covers 0.5mm to 10mm,


You may find it necessary to remove the chuck key guard on your lathe to work with the collets, or by pass the switch so you can run the lathe with the guard up


airscale said:


> all the way down to trying to turn hexagonal stock into scale hose unions for engine bays etc - pretty much all in brass


You can also get collets made for holding hex, square, and other stock, but they can be a bit $$'y


airscale said:


> I looked up draw bars and watched people make them on youtube but I can't seem to find where to buy them? When the collet set arrives it has a 12mm drawbar thread so I guess I can get some studding and nuts and try and make one - at least now I understand the principle of what it is and what it does - so thank you again


A drawbar is simple enough to make. If you make one out of tube and drill through the centre of your 12mm threaded piece, longer stock can pass through and you dont need to cut your stock to short lengths to fit. Also for the sizes you are working on a handwheel to tighten and loosen the collets would be a worthwhile addition.

Cheers Phil


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