# So do you have "Screwdriver Slot OCD" ?



## graham-xrf (Apr 2, 2020)

OR .. do you know somebody who has - you know, called you out on using a screwdriver inappropriate for the size of slot it is being churned around in?

Now I don't mean those horology types you find on YT who lovingly machine and polish, and turn blue those flawless little creations, and will precision hollow-grind and polish screwdriver ends to fit, and the screw is "use once", because it will get marked slightly in the slot!

I mean the rest of us who will sometimes put a nice twist into the blade of a cheapo screwdriver while attempting to remove some oversize cheese-head . Perhaps offer the end of a bigger driver bit that won't quite settle into the slot, leaving a couple of lethally sharp slivers torn from the slot edges.

I have to admit that I never quite gave the cross-head screw the credit it deserves. I know now that a screw will stay on the end of a fitting Phillips cross-head, and drive without cam-out. I also know that trying to drive a Phillips with a Posidriv, or vice-versa, will only mangle the cross.

Why do I ask? I just found out that when one tries to work with small screws in precision kit, it pays to give at least nominal attention to using the approximate correct size! Mangled instrument screws look _really_ crappy!


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## MikeInOr (Apr 2, 2020)

When working on firearms I am very OCD about using the proper screw driver.  On other items it really depends on the type of screw and what it is being used on.  I am certainly not above buggering a No. 8 machine screw because I have a drawer full of them.


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## Lonnie (Apr 2, 2020)

Pretty much any good gunsmith will have, or at least SHOULD have, "Screwdriver Slot OCD".


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## graham-xrf (Apr 2, 2020)

OK - I forgot the pride and standard and safety that goes with guns. We can exclude cross-head drywall screws, used and abused such that one resorts to magnetic-end replaceable batches of PZ2.

Where is the line between pride in precision and a fine finish, and "OCD"?


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## DavidR8 (Apr 2, 2020)

The line is about six feet wide and I lurch from side to side 


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## pontiac428 (Apr 2, 2020)

What side of the spectrum is compulsively replacing slotted screws with button-head hex cap screws on?


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## DavidR8 (Apr 2, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> What side of the spectrum is compulsively replacing slotted screws with button-head hex cap screws on?



Excuse me sir, I believe you’re in the wrong thread, you want to be in the BHHCS or Die thread. 


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## Aukai (Apr 2, 2020)

If I can put a button head it gets changed to a 12 point SS, I may have an issue....


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## MikeInOr (Apr 2, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> OK - I forgot the pride and standard and safety that goes with guns. We can exclude cross-head drywall screws, used and abused such that one resorts to magnetic-end replaceable batches of PZ2.
> 
> Where is the line between pride in precision and a fine finish, and "OCD"?



A person can greatly diminish the value of a firearm in a second by using the wrong screw driver... that is why I am so OCD with firearms.

"cross-head drywall screws"...??? What the heck are those...   OH!  You're British!  LOL!  We call them Philips head screws.


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## DavidR8 (Apr 2, 2020)

Aukai said:


> If I can put a button head it gets changed to a 12 point SS, I may have an issue....


Do we need a support group for 12 pointers?


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## graham-xrf (Apr 2, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> What side of the spectrum is compulsively replacing slotted screws with button-head hex cap screws on?


Definitely me -and make that stainless steel as well unless they particularly need to be HT or very hard. Every car I ever finally got rid of (I tend to keep them going a very long time), went out with a fine set of replacement threaded stuff that was shiny and needed Allen key wrenches.

Edit: I can see @DavidR8, and @pontiac428 , and @MrWhoopee , like me,  also has SSS (Stainless Steel Syndrome).


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## graham-xrf (Apr 2, 2020)

MikeInOr said:


> A person can greatly diminish the value of a firearm in a second by using the wrong screw driver... that is why I am so OCD with firearms.
> 
> "cross-head drywall screws"...??? What the heck are those...   OH!  You're British!  LOL!  We call them Philips head screws.


Oh dear no! A PH2 screw is a Phillips cross head. A PZ2 Pozidriv is also a cross-head size 2, but not the same.
It is a BAD mistake to mix them up, and put the wrong driver bit into the opposite screw head.
All the building stuff, woodwork, self-tapping, roofing, and suchlike use POZI.
Anything that uses a tapped machine thread is Phillips, right down to a Japanese disk drive internals.

BUT - we all, at some stage, have  tried to stick any old cross-head bit into a screw, with the torque set to max, and ended up with what used to be a cross, chewed into a kind of non-removable (tamper-proof?) cavity, have we not? 

Ref: The flats on a Phillips bit taper toward the point. The flats on a Pozi are rectangular.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 2, 2020)

Oh, stainless goes without saying.  My current car has $1500 worth of hex and 12-pt stainless throughout the undercarriage, suspension, and engine bay (metric, of course).


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 2, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> What side of the spectrum is compulsively replacing slotted screws with button-head hex cap screws on?



I replaced all of the slotted cheese head screws on my VW engine with stainless steel button head socket screws. The question is: Is that Obsessive Compulsive or Excessive Compulsive?


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## pontiac428 (Apr 2, 2020)

It's Overtly Conscientious to do that.


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## Aukai (Apr 2, 2020)

I have had poor results with the button head cap screws


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## Superburban (Apr 2, 2020)

Aukai said:


> If I can put a button head it gets changed to a 12 point SS, I may have an issue....


I'm with you  there, only I have a hard time using them, Every project seems to be not good enough to use a 12 point, so they just sit there, and get looked at every so often. Kinda like having a shaper, you spend more time looking and playing, then using for a real project.


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## mikey (Apr 2, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Anything that uses a tapped machine thread is Phillips, right down to a Japanese disk drive internals.



Um, most anything Japanese with a cross point will be JIS, definitely NOT Phillips. Phillips screws and their drivers are meant to cam out, while JIS is meant to NOT cam out under high torque. JIS, or Japanese International Standard, is a now defunct standard in Japan but it is still widely used in Japanese products. Regardless, a JIS screwdriver in any standard Phillips screw head will not cam out the screw. In addition, a JIS flat head screwdriver has a less acute taper (maybe a degree or two less) so it less likely to cam out a slotted screw. I've been using JIS drivers for decades and they are superior to most Western drivers. Might want to consider them.


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## Aukai (Apr 2, 2020)

Since they are no longer made by the original company, any NOS listing for the drivers...


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## darkzero (Apr 2, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Since they are no longer made by the original company, any NOS listing for the drivers...



Were you referring to JIS drivers? If yes it's a design spec/standard now, a number of manufacturers make JIS drivers. All of mine are made by Vessel but there are others like Koken, Hozan, Anex, Engineer, Tone, etc, many of which are Japanese market brands though.


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## mikey (Apr 2, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Since they are no longer made by the original company, any NOS listing for the drivers...



If you're asking about JIS drivers, this is the set I have. They have many sets but that large white handled one in this set is an impact driver for Phillips-type screws and it works extremely well.

I also use Vessel's JIS bits in my hand impact driver. I use Vessel's 2500 impact driver that is discontinued but you can get essentially the same tool as the model 250001 on Amazon. If you need a good impact driver, I highly recommend Vessel.


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## GL (Apr 2, 2020)

I'm a little surprised our Canadian friends have not chimed in for support of square drive Robertson heads - great system, politics killed wide use.  Torx drive is common in the US.  Personally, life is too short to mess with slotted screws, with the exception of guns. But, since gunmakers have a dislike of machinists and use odd threads as well as slotted screws, we have to put up with their BS if we want to play with the toys they make.  Change to anything other than slotted and the next guy is better off.  With the possible exception of small, SS, allen heads that tend to round out.   So not OCD, just POed.


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## Aukai (Apr 2, 2020)

The kit you have is on shipping delay, so I got 1 set of the green handles, and 1 set of thee white handles from Ebay coming from Japan


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## mikey (Apr 2, 2020)

You will like Vessel tools. Comfortable in the hand, knurled shanks, great non-slip coating and geometry on the tips. That impact driver screwdriver has saved my butt many times so good choice, Mike!


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## Aukai (Apr 2, 2020)

My other Philips sets that I've had for years is getting decimated from the years of use.

And thank you guys for the heads up.


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## savarin (Apr 2, 2020)

Definitely have the BHHCS  syndrome.
You only have to check out my big bino to see that.


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## rust rescue (Apr 2, 2020)

Very interesting discussion. I came up with a trick/hack fifty years ago while struggling to get the rusty cammed- out phillips head screws out of the headlight retaining ring on my 62 Chevy Belair. I was about to "give in and drill in" when I decided too try putting some valve grinding  compound on the end of the screwdriver.  Worked like a charm and I have been using this trick and sharing it since. In a pinch I have even put some sand in the head and tapped the driver in with a hammer to shatter the sand. This trick also works with straight slotted screws. 
 Those JIS drivers and that impact screwdriver look good. May have to invest in some.


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## mikey (Apr 2, 2020)

The "compound in a beat up screw" is an old hot rodder's trick that has been around for many decades. I learned it as an apprentice auto mechanic at the age of 16 (well over 50 years ago). Nice to see that its still around and has been "re-discovered" by you - and yes, it works!


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## Aukai (Apr 2, 2020)

Mikey just doing his thing to help the economy


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## mikey (Apr 3, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Mikey just doing his thing to help the economy



Gotta help the old portfolio you know!


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## Aukai (Apr 3, 2020)

Stock tip,,,,,,baby food, and diapers


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## graham-xrf (Apr 3, 2020)

Aside from @GL giving the gunmakers some slack over their non-standard thread needs, I agree about Allen head screws when they are really small. That said, I know that when the wrench is very close fitting, and the screw in good condition, you can twist or bend the wrench. Do we over-tighten?

I did once see a small 6-point head that looked for all the world like what is now Torx. The wrench was known as a "Bristow key", and the kit was (old) Douglas aircraft.

I have a box of special cutting woodscrews that use the Canadian square drive. That style makes sense to me. The bit can't slip out like as a flat screwdriver slot, and it has least propensity to get rounded. The instinct says that the more corners in there, the easier it is to get it mangled into roundness. I could be wrong on the instinct. I never knew a Torx to slip or wreck.

Edit: Hmm.. rethinking that, maybe the triangular thing used in some tamperproof types would have least tendency to mangle, allowing that we take the tamperproof ramps out from under.


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## whitmore (Apr 3, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> Oh dear no! A PH2 screw is a Phillips cross head. A PZ2 Pozidriv is also a cross-head size 2, but not the same.



My favorite cross-head variant is the Frearson (aka Reed and Prince) which only has ONE driver
size, and which fits as tight as a Robertson (tapered square drive).   Alas, except for pricey boat
hardware in bronze, it's a rarity.

The JIS standard is dissimilar (slightly) and makes a fourth variant of cross-head.   It takes a rack
of screwdrivers and some exploration to feel which one fits, but pozidrive has tickmarks, JIS has
a dot, to help identify 'em.


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## pontiac428 (Apr 3, 2020)

Once I broke down and bought a set of Hozan JIS screwdrivers, I stopped stripping screws on Japanese-designed stuff.  Imagine that!


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## middle.road (Apr 4, 2020)

Interesting short video on Robertson...


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## Low tech (Apr 4, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> OR .. do you know somebody who has - you know, called you out on using a screwdriver inappropriate for the size of slot it is being churned around in?
> 
> Now I don't mean those horology types you find on YT who lovingly machine and polish, and turn blue those flawless little creations, and will precision hollow-grind and polish screwdriver ends to fit, and the screw is "use once", because it will get marked slightly in the slot!
> 
> ...



As far as slotted screw heads , my two complete Brownells hollow ground screw driver sets have never failed me . It seems there is a proper size for any slotted screw head .


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## mikey (Apr 4, 2020)

I don't do guns but I do like my Chapman screwdriver bits. The slotted ones are also hollow ground and I use them when it matters, like the slotted screw in the collar of an Albrecht chuck. I suspect their cross points are JIS pattern because they fit just like a JIS driver instead of a Phillips.


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## WobblyHand (May 25, 2020)

mikey said:


> I don't do guns but I do like my Chapman screwdriver bits. The slotted ones are also hollow ground and I use them when it matters, like the slotted screw in the collar of an Albrecht chuck. I suspect their cross points are JIS pattern because they fit just like a JIS driver instead of a Phillips.


Actually, Chapman sells Phillips and JIS screwdriver bits.  I just recently bought some.
CMP-20/21 (labeled as P1, P2) are Phillips #1 & #2, CP1/2 are JIS1 & JIS2.  
The Phillips bits are $1.55, whereas the JIS bits are $3.00.
The JIS bits do fit JIS screws better...  Phillips on the outside, JIS on the inside.  JIS have a different taper, and seem to have a truncated nose.






If you ask nicely, you can get one of these stickers.  It is how I feel about my screwdriver set.  Apparently it is a common sentiment for Chapman owners!


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## Old Mud (May 28, 2020)

I use Torx as much as i can. They do not slip. 3" deck screws in PT without drilling and no slip. All the way down to screws in Carbides. I learned at a early age to hate flat blades.  We built boats, (Dad and I) Wooden boats that were almost exclusively  Cedar over Oak. 3 braces, one with the drill, one with the rosewood and one with the flat blade driver. All Brass or Bronze screws 3" to 4" . When planking a  boat in the 30' range you have many screws to drive. Let that bitt slip Once and you were in much trouble. (Don't ask me how i know that) So, I when they started making Phillips i thought they should have outlawed the slots.


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