# VN 22L



## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

New poster here.  Interested in a Van Norman 22L that is for sale not too far from me.  Looking to replace my Chinese mill/drill with something more ridged/larger work envelop and felt this was a great option since it can be converted from a vertical to horizontal mill quite easily/quickly.  Looks to have all the necessary arbor supports and might even have the 50 taper.  Guy said it was originally a government machine that was rebuilt and then never used.  I have heard the VN might be a little limited in the knee travel, but not sure on the 22L.  It would be cool to fit it with a BP J head and a DRO too if at all possible.  Thanks in advance for any info/advice.

Justin


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## Groundhog (Feb 3, 2017)

Don't know a thing about it, but it sure looks solid doesn't it. I especially like the cup holder to the left of the spindle


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## Bob Korves (Feb 3, 2017)

How many $$$?  What else comes with it?  That horizontal arbor looks pretty nasty on the taper end, does it actually fit the machine?


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Haven't been to look at it in person.  He wants $3500, but I think I can talk him down since everyone is hot and heavy on the traditional knee mills.


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## Uglydog (Feb 3, 2017)

Ah...
Don't know what you are planning to pay. That's a question you will need to address.
But, if you want a BP, then I might be willing to purchase this VN from you. She appears clean!
Get a good drill press and pass on the BP. Or keep your mill/drill and just use it a DP. 
This will move alot more chips than a BP every will. Much more rigid potentially much more accurate. Also, heavier to move around.
Note she has hand wheels with rotary scales near the handwheels. Don't rush on buying a DRO. These actually work. 
No sarcasm intended. 
Sorry, my bias is showing.

Daryl
MN


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> Ah...
> Don't know what you are planning to pay. That's a question you will need to address.
> But, if you want a BP, then I might be willing to purchase this VN from you. She appears clean!
> Get a good drill press and pass on the BP. Or keep your mill/drill and just use it a DP.
> ...



Thanks for the info!  He is asking $3500.  I can't wait to go and look at it in person and see how it feels under power.  Also looking for a good lathe like a Monarch 10ee or hardinge hlv-h to replace the Chinese Grizzly lathe I have.


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Btw, you guys are awesome!   At least you replied fairly quickly.  I haven't had one response over at PM and I posted this at 11 am.  I've had 79 views and not one response.  Thanks again for the responses!  Will try to keep this thread updated as I pursue this.

Justin


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## Uglydog (Feb 3, 2017)

That's what she'd go for in this MN market.
I don't know about yours.
50taper is much coveted.
She has the arbors. She looks clean.
Looks plug and play.
I tend to buy projects and sometimes do ok financially. Sometimes very poorly.
I've never used a Monarch, got to touch one once. Needed to wipe off my drool.
There are many good machines out there.
Just because something has a strong positive reputation doesn't make that make and model the best or appropriate for your needs.

Daryl
MN


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## Bob Korves (Feb 3, 2017)

Monarch and Hardinge (and many others) made lots of really high quality lathes that are not 10EE or HL-V.  Expand your horizons, look for a great lathe at a great price...


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Monarch and Hardinge (and many others) made lots of really high quality lathes that are not 10EE or HL-V.  Expand your horizons, look for a great lathe at a great price...



Exactly (good point)!  My buddy actually has one that is slightly larger than the 10ee that he loves.  It also has the taper attachment.  If you have any suggestions, I am all ears and much appreciate the info/advice!

Justin


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## Reeltor (Feb 3, 2017)

Groundhog said:


> Don't know a thing about it, but it sure looks solid doesn't it. I especially like the cup holder to the left of the spindle


LOL, the "cup holder" is the recess for when the mill is converted to horizontal mode.  Machine tools vary in price due to location, condition and demand.  I bought my VN22L after several years that a reseller had it on the market.  He started at over $4,000 (I seem to remember that it was around $4,800) then reduced to $3,500, and so on.   I offered $950.  My machine was (is) well tooled.  VN's don't have the demand that Bridgeports have, so they routinely sell for much less.  Only negative is that they don't have a quill.  If you want to drill you bring up the table.  Power feeds on all three axes, driven by a separate 2 hp feed motor that's in the base of the unit. You can drive X-Y and Z simultaneously.
3-phase motors for the feed and spindle.  If you wire the feed motor backwards the feed doesn't work and makes a racket especially when you engage the rapids.  If  you get a flash light you can view the drive gear for the feeds and see the arrow on the gear.

I had to move mine today.  These are heavy, solid machines.  
Don't limit your Monarch search to a 10EE, I have a 16 CW and it is a joy to use.  

good luck 

Mike


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Reeltor said:


> LOL, the "cup holder" is the recess for when the mill is converted to horizontal mode.  Machine tools vary in price due to location, condition and demand.  I bought my VN22L after several years that a reseller had it on the market.  He started at over $4,000 (I seem to remember that it was around $4,800) then reduced to $3,500, and so on.   I offered $950.  My machine was (is) well tooled.  VN's don't have the demand that Bridgeports have, so they routinely sell for much less.  Only negative is that they don't have a quill.  If you want to drill you bring up the table.  Power feeds on all three axes, driven by a separate 2 hp feed motor that's in the base of the unit. You can drive X-Y and Z simultaneously.
> 3-phase motors for the feed and spindle.  If you wire the feed motor backwards the feed doesn't work and makes a racket especially when you engage the rapids.  If  you get a flash light you can view the drive gear for the feeds and see the arrow on the gear.
> 
> I had to move mine today.  These are heavy, solid machines.
> ...




Thanks for your insight Mike!  Much appreciated.  Will definitly look into the Monarch 16 CW's!  What are your thoughts on fitting it (22L) with a BP J head?


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## Uglydog (Feb 3, 2017)

Reeltor,
Speaks huge wisdom!
VN also made drill attachments.
If you have a good DP I'm not convinced you need a drill spindle on a mill.
Yes, it requires an additional set up.

Daryl
MN


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Awesome guys!  I am going to try and go look at it sometime next week if it's still available.  I will probably offer him $2ooo if everything works well.  Any suggestions on a good drill press?


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## Reeltor (Feb 3, 2017)

ja_cain said:


> Thanks for your insight Mike!  Much appreciated.  Will definitly look into the Monarch 16 CW's!  What are your thoughts on fitting it (22L) with a BP J head?



Daryl probably knows more about that than I do but I think it's a great idea, just mount it to the overarm, no fuss no muss.  
There are a number of different Monarchs, only downside is slow spindle speed.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 3, 2017)

ja_cain said:


> Exactly (good point)!  My buddy actually has one that is slightly larger than the 10ee that he loves.  It also has the taper attachment.  If you have any suggestions, I am all ears and much appreciate the info/advice!
> 
> Justin


If you have a lathe that works reasonably well for you, then you are in the driver's seat.  Consider all lathes that are for sale, do your homework and learn about them, be educated when you meet the seller.  Because you already have a working lathe, you can make low offers, ask for more tooling, or whatever you want.  If your offer is rejected, you still have a working lathe.  Regardless of the asking price, regardless of the seller saying "firm price," stick to your offer.  Write your offer on a piece of paper, with your phone number, and write that the offer is good until you buy another lathe or change your mind.  There is most certainly a thing which might be called "seller's remorse", when the realization hits that the asking price and the market to not match.  You will very likely get a call, and if you don't, you still have your working lathe and your money.  There is no stress on your end!  Often, the more unreasonable the original asking price is, the more likely a smart buyer will get it for a song.


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Reeltor said:


> Daryl probably knows more about that than I do but I think it's a great idea, just mount it to the overarm, no fuss no muss.
> There are a number of different Monarchs, only downside is slow spindle speed.



They are out there.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-HP-Bridge...3792d2c&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=201718346331


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## Uglydog (Feb 3, 2017)

I will not run down BP users.
However, if offered either I'll take my Cincy Toolmaster or VN no drill quill over a BP.

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Feb 3, 2017)

I agree 100% with Bob.
Here are my thoughts on buying anything.  The Buyer always sets the price, the seller can ask anything he wants for whatever widget he is selling.  The key to getting a "good" deal is how bad do you need it.  Like Bob said, if you have a working lathe then you can afford to wait for your deal.

On the other hand the time to buy is when you find it.  When I bought my mill I didn't have a clue about what a great machine a VN22L is.  If I did, I would have been more earnest in getting it instead of stopping by the seller's warehouse every 6 months or so (for YEARS) to see if it was still there and wave some $$$'s at him.
A 50 taper spindle is worlds above what is on a Bridgeport.
I would much rather have a good running VN22L than a Bridgeport in the same condition.  Bridggies sell all day long for $3,500.  
Go with cash and a way to load and move the mill right then and there!  Of course this is easier if you or a friend owns a trailer that will handle the weight rather then having to rent something.  If you do have to rent a trailer, check rental places near where the mill is located ahead of time.  Give the seller a small deposit in the form of a check to hold it until you return with the trailer (write a bill of sale with all the particulars spelled out).  
How familiar are you with moving a 4-5,000lb machine?

Mike


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> If you have a lathe that works reasonably well for you, then you are in the driver's seat.  Consider all lathes that are for sale, do your homework and learn about them, be educated when you meet the seller.  Because you already have a working lathe, you can make low offers, ask for more tooling, or whatever you want.  If your offer is rejected, you still have a working lathe.  Regardless of the asking price, regardless of the seller saying "firm price," stick to your offer.  Write your offer on a piece of paper, with your phone number, and write that the offer is good until you buy another lathe or change your mind.  There is most certainly a thing which might be called "seller's remorse", when the realization hits that the asking price and the market to not match.  You will very likely get a call, and if you don't, you still have your working lathe and your money.  There is no stress on your end!  Often, the more unreasonable the original asking price is, the more likely a smart buyer will get it for a song.



The problem with my work lathe is that I have to physically change gears to change from threading to turning operations.  My SB 9A at home doesn't require this and also has power cross feed, but is pretty clapped out.  I would like to have something with a carriage stop for internal treading or turning up to a shoulder.


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## Reeltor (Feb 3, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> I will not run down BP users.
> However, if offered either I'll take my Cincy Toolmaster or VN no drill quill over a BP.
> 
> Daryl
> MN



Don't forget K & T's


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Reeltor said:


> Don't forget K & T's



Lol!  That is actually what I really want.  I would love to have K&T horizontal with a vertical head and a Lagun FT-2.  Otoh, a #2 K&T vertical, #2 horizontal and a Lagun FT-2 would be the cats meow.  Lol!


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## Reeltor (Feb 3, 2017)

There's was (is?) a K&T with Vertical head for sale on PM.  Did you see it?


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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

I personally would not put a bp head on the over arm and here is why i would not its becouse if u rver wanted to do horizontal milli g with a arbor u will need to be able to put the arbor suport on the arbor suport arm and with a bp head on it u will not beable to do this a good drill press will give u the up and down u seek if u need power use the vn mill its a pain in the butt but with time it gets perty easy to bring the knee up to your tool bit

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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Reeltor said:


> I agree 100% with Bob.
> Here are my thoughts on buying anything.  The Buyer always sets the price, the seller can ask anything he wants for whatever widget he is selling.  The key to getting a "good" deal is how bad do you need it.  Like Bob said, if you have a working lathe then you can afford to wait for your deal.
> 
> On the other hand the time to buy is when you find it.  When I bought my mill I didn't have a clue about what a great machine a VN22L is.  If I did, I would have been more earnest in getting it instead of stopping by the seller's warehouse every 6 months or so (for YEARS) to see if it was still there and wave some $$$'s at him.
> ...



Awesome info.  I have a truck big enough and access to trailers that can handle something of that weight.


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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

Every one will be sick as hell when i tell you all what i paid for my van norman 22LU no it did not have tooling but has a cat 50to r 8 adapter in it so i can run both but i paid 100 bucks cash lol score of a life time guys

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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

And the vn 22l is 3200 lbs they. Are a pain to move but so worth it

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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

Reeltor said:


> There's was (is?) a K&T with Vertical head for sale on PM.  Did you see it?



I did not see, but see it now!  Will reach out to him tomorrow.  Thanks for the heads up.


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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

r.vial said:


> Every one will be sick as hell when i tell you all what i paid for my van norman 22LU no it did not have tooling but has a cat 50to r 8 adapter in it so i can run both but i paid 100 bucks cash lol score of a life time guys
> 
> Sent from my LGL82VL using Tapatalk



That's just crazy.  Definitely the score of a lifetime if it isn't clapped out.


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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

No i use her every day it had been seting for 17 years it was a guys dads so it set in The back of a barn not used the tooling was long ago lost but the guys finds some parts here and there and brings it to me but i keep my eye open all the time

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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

Ja_cain i sent u a pm 

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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

r.vial said:


> No i use her every day it had been seting for 17 years it was a guys dads so it set in The back of a barn not used the tooling was long ago lost but the guys finds some parts here and there and brings it to me but i keep my eye open all the time
> 
> Sent from my LGL82VL using Tapatalk



Good stuff man!  Makes you wonder how many awesome mills and lathes are sitting in the back of barns these days.  Lol!


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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

Allso in the pics u posted i did not see the draw bar the 22 and up van norman have two draw bars one is the draw tube and the other is a draw bar made for the 50 the it slides threw the draw the tube and sucks the tip of the cat 50 in to the draw tube so u dont over tighten it 

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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

My dad has 4 engineering degrees and looked up the patenet on the 22lu mill i have and told me that about the draw bar and tube so i will tell i know guys to keep these out of the draw unk yards

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## ja_cain (Feb 3, 2017)

r.vial said:


> My dad has 4 engineering degrees and looked up the patenet on the 22lu mill i have and told me that about the draw bar and tube so i will tell i know guys to keep these out of the draw unk yards
> 
> Sent from my LGL82VL using Tapatalk



Good info!  I wish I had at least 1 engineering degree.  Lol!  I do work with 4 guys that have PHD's in different engineering disciplines.  I think their combined years of experience as PHD's is well over 100 years.  Lol!  Unfortunately, no mechanical engineers.  That's on my wish list.


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## Reeltor (Feb 3, 2017)

r.vial said:


> Allso in the pics u posted i did not see the draw bar the 22 and up van norman have two draw bars one is the draw tube and the other is a draw bar made for the 50 the it slides threw the draw the tube and sucks the tip of the cat 50 in to the draw tube so u dont over tighten it
> 
> Sent from my LGL82VL using Tapatalk



I don't have or ever saw a draw tube for the main draw bar on the VN22
I was going to ask how long the draw tube was, hoping it was for a Dividing Head.


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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

Dad has one in mechanical engineering so if worst comes to worst i can go ask him and we all can find out lol

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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

I dont know i am not in the shop i dont rememeber last time i had it out how long it was i can check in the next few days when i am back in the shop how long the draw tube is

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## Reeltor (Feb 3, 2017)

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)

The drill press part van norman made i believe it bolted to the face of the head on the mill i would have to double check on that to make sure i am telling this right they also made a low speed and high speed heads that did bolt to the face of the head but the head had to be put in to horizontal befor u could use them 

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## r.vial (Feb 3, 2017)




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