# Tooling up for silver soldering



## dbb-the-bruce (Mar 16, 2020)

I'm in the process of developing skills and experience with the goal of building mechanical constructions (think boxes).

Being able to assemble things using silver solder is going to be a requirement and is a capability I want to add to my repertoire. I've done a lot of soldering of copper pipe (dad was a plumber!), I don't expect the actual skill to be that hard to master.

The advice I'm looking for here is what do I need? Please help me buy tools!

Torch - I've managed to get by with MAP or Propane in a small can. I think I'd do best with a small acetylene torch kit. I'm not going to be doing huge stuff.
Solder - looking for silver solder with brass color, different hardness sizes etc? where and what?
Flux - ?

Please keep in mind that the intent is to be able to assemble sheet brass into small boxes. working with 1/16" or 1/8" thickness. Boxes 4 - 6" dimensions at the most.

I imagine a sort of "hot" table / top - some fire bricks? and any number of clamps and holders etc.

-Dave


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## bill stupak (Mar 16, 2020)

What material are the boxes going to be made of? How are you making them? lap joints? butt joint? How much strength do you need? If you don't need much strength soft soldering might be the best way to go, certainly much easier in my opinion.


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## 4ssss (Mar 16, 2020)

You need a torch, flux and silver solder. Nothing more. Make sure your part is clean before starting.


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## Flyinfool (Mar 16, 2020)

As to which of the many alloys of silver solder to use, that will depend on your joint design and fit up. For the brass color you may want to consider brazing the joints. Brazing rod is closer to the color of brass, will fill a less than perfect fit, and is a LOT less money than silver solder.


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## savarin (Mar 16, 2020)

If your doing more than one soldering operation on the same construction you will need different melting point solders.


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## pontiac428 (Mar 16, 2020)

I've never had good luck hard soldering with propane or MAPP.  Those might work great for sheet brass, though.  They're not quite hot enough (from the torch with no refractory) to flow right, but usually I'm working with larger stuff like rifle bolts.

If you go the oxy/acetylene route, try brazing.  Modern, premium-line brazing rod has fabulous flux, beats the hell out of using borax.  That'll get you your color match at hard solder temperatures.  Some silver solder looks bronze-colored, but it melts silver.  Usually you only need 1-2% silver to make solder alloys flow.  Depending on your application, you could also use silver-bearing soft solder too.  Most people choose hard solder for strength.


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## WCraig (Mar 16, 2020)

Is there any middle ground for a torch?  I, too, would like to learn brazing or silver soldering but oxy-actylene seems like overkill for the few times I'm likely to use it.  I literally have no idea--is there anything hotter than propane but less 'fuss' than oxy-actylene?

Link to specific products would be gratefully received.

Craig


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## francist (Mar 16, 2020)

Depending on the size of your items, a “corner” made out of 4 to 6 fire bricks can really make a difference. I’ve silver soldered tool bits and hard soldered repairs using this and an ordinary Bernzomatic propane torch. You’ll be limited to about 1/2” diameter though — in other words, you could braze a piece of carbide or high speed steel onto a piece of 1/2” mild steel to make a boring bar — but after that you’ll not be putting out enough heat. Using two torches side by side would help with that though.

-frank


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## erikmannie (Mar 17, 2020)

Henry James has a website that sells wire matched to paste flux. These two products are designed to work together. When the flux becomes clear, you can add the wire. I use Henry James bronze rod and the matching paste flux.

Oxyacteylene is not a fuss, in my opinion. I use Victor products, and they are superb. I have a medium as well as HD combination torch. I have 000, 00, 0, 1, 3 and 5 tips.

I have tried the cheap import tips, and they are awful. Victor tips are a little pricy, but they work perfectly.


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## Dave Smith (Mar 17, 2020)

they sell nice small sets of oxy/actylene sets and work just right for silver soldering. you can also braze if you have a need to.---I don't know the material you will use for your boxes, but the torch will heat metal quickly to make a sharp bend ---you can silver solder a broken bandsaw blade or make a new one which I do quite often---many worthwhile uses for a small torch set--you may even need it to cut a piece of metal quickly.--Dave


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## erikmannie (Mar 17, 2020)

Acetylene in combination with oxygen is too magical to pass up. The propane, propylene, et al don’t bring the heat as quickly as O/A.

My O/A cart is my favorite welding cart, by far.

If you find the Ag/Ni wire too pricy, give bronze a try. I use C-04, and I find it easy to work with. Remember Henry James Bicycle!


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## NortonDommi (Mar 17, 2020)

I have an old N.Z.I.G. Oxy/Acet setup that is over 40 years old and still going well,(not the bottles),it was my first major tool purchase.  Recently I have been using a Henrob 2000 I got a couple of months ago and I love it because it is so frugal, also a revelation to not have to use flux on many jobs.  Buy bare rods and powdered flux.  Have a look at some Jewelers torches as they should handle what you are doing and are small, light and easy to maneuver.
Some information: https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/brazing




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						ESAB | Home
					

ESAB is a global leader in welding and cutting equipment and consumables. Explore how our complete line of products can provide a complete workflow solution.




					www.esabna.com
				







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						Brazing Fundamentals | Lucas Milhaupt
					






					www.lucasmilhaupt.com
				




  Please take note of the second paragraph of the ESAB Handbook. The American term 'Braze Welding' has and continues to create confusion. Personally I would love to see a return to the standards of Brazing & Bronze Welding as the two processes are quite different.


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## tghsmith (Mar 17, 2020)

most of my hobby silver soldering is done with Mapp gas,, sometimes bringing the heat up slower can be better,, for larger work I have added a second torch,, jewelry supplier Rio Grande has fine wire silver solder to match colors,, they also carry titinium strips that can be bent into clamps to hold things in place while soldering (they work great)


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## WCraig (Mar 17, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> ...I use Victor products, and they are superb. I have a medium as well as HD combination torch. I have 000, 00, 0, 1, 3 and 5 tips.


I can read these words but I have no idea what they mean.  

Even my brother-in-law, who was an aircraft mechanic, doesn't weld or have a O/A torch.  I don't know anyone who does.  OK, I do have a buddy that has a coal forge and he has attempted forge-welding.  OTOH, he only gets the forge out 1-3 times per year.

Craig


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## WCraig (Mar 17, 2020)

Dave Smith said:


> they sell nice small sets of oxy/actylene sets and work just right for silver soldering. you can also braze if you have a need to...


Who is "they"?

Craig


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 17, 2020)

I have heard of some special torches that will, give high temps with BBQ gas, but i have no experience with them. Disposable propane gas cylinders are OK for silver soldering small parts. Cheaper than MAPP gas. Also copper can be fusion welded without flux just like steel. It's quicker and cheaper, but you might need oxy acetylene, as it needs to hotter than for silver soldering, but much cheaper, I've used it for all my plumbing.


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## francist (Mar 17, 2020)

WCraig said:


> Who is "they"?


I'll post a bit more info on the product I use when I'm back home later today, Craig. If memory serves, it's Harris StaySilv-45 I think, and is pretty available at welding supply shops and also Home Depot I think. I'll also a picture or two of a typical corner I would use. 

-frank


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## erikmannie (Mar 17, 2020)

WCraig said:


> I can read these words but I have no idea what they mean.
> 
> Even my brother-in-law, who was an aircraft mechanic, doesn't weld or have a O/A torch.  I don't know anyone who does.  OK, I do have a buddy that has a coal forge and he has attempted forge-welding.  OTOH, he only gets the forge out 1-3 times per year.
> 
> Craig



Victor is a (quality!) brand that sells equipment for gas welding and brazing. 

000, 00,...,3 and 5 are tip sizes. The 000 is quite small (for thin sheet), and the 5 is large (for plate). These welding tips are used for gas welding or brazing.

Go back 100 years, and most welding was done with oxyacetylene, and gas welded joints are just as strong as with any other welding process.

Many people consider gas welding to be obsolete, _*but*_ if you are not in a hurry, away from a power source, working on thin material, on a low budget, or a metalworking history geek, gas welding may be a great choice. Gas welding is also excellent practice for TIG welding.

Understand that soldering is up to 840 degrees F, and brazing is at temperatures up to the melting point of the base metal. Welding is at temperatures above the melting point of the base metal.

When you titled the post "silver soldering", I assumed that you would be open to either silver soldering or silver brazing. When I _*solder*_, it is on electrical wires, I have done silver and brass *brazing*. The silver brazing makes for a particularly strong joint. A joint brazed with brass is not as strong as a welded joint or a silver brazed joint.

At home, I do a lot of brass brazing because I was too cheap to buy the silver wire. If you have the money, silver soldering or brazing would get you a really strong joint.


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## Dabbler (Mar 17, 2020)

@dbb-the-bruce I can't speak for your suppliers in your area.  That will be a research project for you if you need to change equipment.

Here are a few ideas to consider:  the type of work you are doing is very well suited to a jewelry sized Oxy Acetylene outfit.  There are other options, however...

Modern HHO outfits can be had from offshore for a moderate price and would work very well for the kind of SS or bronze brazing you need to do.

If you are looking to do metalworking long term, you might want to move toward TIG (bronze) brazing instead.  Less finicky.  fewer flow problems, but needs different and nontrivial skills to do.  TIG is your most  versatile but most expensive option.

The problem with MAP gas is your flame temperature is marginal to do a good job, and it isn't concentrated enough to do a long edge bit by bit.  That's where HHO brazing comes in.  You can do 1/2 inch of HHO brazing or OA brazing without having the SS flow out of your joint or getting burnt up -  both are super common if your entire SS job is larger than your flame envelope.

I hope this helps.


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## erikmannie (Mar 17, 2020)

Other points that I would add are:

(1) a regulator assembly will be for a specified gas. You wouldn't use an acetylene regulator for propane, for example.

(2) getting back to matching the flux to the filler wire or rod, I would advise a beginner to buy the wire and flux from the same place in order to assure that the flux is designed to be used with that filler. I can see a noobie buying some silver wire here and some flux there, and then becoming frustrated with the results if there was a mismatch between the filler material and the flux. Harris Products sells these items, but Henry James Bicycle is the only place I have ever seen where both products are on the same page and it explicitly states that they are matched (with regard to application temperature).

(3) I was unable to get my O/A cart going without a few trips to the local welding supply. Some fittings (with regard to size and type of gas) are best chosen by somebody who does this for a living.

(4) flashback arrestors and a high awareness of safety are highly recommended.

(5) the great news is that there is a lot of room for error. It is okay to use too much flux--the only penalty is cost and more of a mess to clean up. Done properly, you will never melt the base metal, so you will probably never blow a hole or damage the workpiece. An increased margin of error makes for a more enjoyable work experience, in my opinion.


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## dbb-the-bruce (Mar 17, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> @dbb-the-bruce I can't speak for your suppliers in your area.  That will be a research project for you if you need to change equipment.
> 
> Here are a few ideas to consider:  the type of work you are doing is very well suited to a jewelry sized Oxy Acetylene outfit.  There are other options, however...
> 
> ...



What's an HHO?

I've used TIG (very little) for what I want to do it's probably to much / expensive.

Jewelry sized / hobby model sized. I can imagine (right now) anything much bigger than say a 4" cube. OA - would be nice to add to equipment, presumably on the small side. It would be nice to also be able to do bandsaw blades and braze other tooling.


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## Dabbler (Mar 17, 2020)

that is a unit tah creates hydrogen gas and oxygen from distilled water and an electric current.  If you go to sites such as banggood.com and search on hho, you can see pictures of the unit they sell.  There are a few videos on youribe on using an HHO torch, which should be instructive.

The nice thing about HHO is that you get the control and intensity of a gas torch, without the problems of bottled gases.


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## Ken from ontario (Mar 17, 2020)

I have used Phosphor-copper rods  and/or super sil  flo . both are in my opinion the closest in color to copper, can be used to braze Brass if you use flux, it is cheaper than sil fos-15 and works best with O/A torch.






						Forney 48571 Super SIL Flo Brazing Rod, 1/8-Inch, 1/2-Pound : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
					

Forney 48571 Super SIL Flo Brazing Rod, 1/8-Inch, 1/2-Pound : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



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## dbb-the-bruce (Mar 17, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> that is a unit tah creates hydrogen gas and oxygen from distilled water and an electric current.  If you go to sites such as banggood.com and search on hho, you can see pictures of the unit they sell.  There are a few videos on youribe on using an HHO torch, which should be instructive.
> 
> The nice thing about HHO is that you get the control and intensity of a gas torch, without the problems of bottled gases.



Interesting, did that in high school. I'll look into HHO. 

(also made H2 when younger using zinc from battery cases and plumbers acid - made one hell of a bang, damn lucky I didn't seriously injure myself HA!)


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## Ken from ontario (Mar 17, 2020)

If you want to use silver solder wire, Gesswein is probably the best for price and variety of silver solder wires, flux, paste and all, I used the" easy " silver wire and it really was easy to use,here's the link;








						Silver Solder Wire
					

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						Solder
					

Canada's best source for Quality Tools, Equipment and Supplies for Jewellers and the Jewellery Industry.  Over 17,000 products available from our 16,000 SF warehouse in Toronto.  In-stock orders placed before 3:30pm shipped the same day. Can't find what you are looking for? Call our highly...



					www.gessweincanada.com


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## Dave Smith (Mar 17, 2020)

WCraig said:


> Who is "they"?
> 
> Craig


almost any welding supply house, plumbing supply house, including HF sells small complete sets for a little over $300(Mississippi welders is one that sells a nice small  Smith's set) I bought a used set with some oxy/actylene still in the tanks for $90. put a wanted ad in CL for a small set ---they can be found. b size tanks can be owned and exchanged for a full tank for the price of the actylene. I have a Smiths set plus a small purox set, and a large Harris set with the larger tanks. Dave


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## pontiac428 (Mar 17, 2020)

You can get used Victor oxy-acetylene setups for a song on craigslist or similar.  I say Victor because of the ubiquity of parts and service.  I like being able to buy regulator rebuild kits, o-rings, or a torch tip when I need to without stockpiling.  I have two super-range setups that I keep, one for heating/brazing and one for cutting (though admittedly I cut with plasma most of the time).  It's simple, you choose the tip sized for your work, and adjust the flame to control your heat.  You can braze for years without running your tanks empty, it does not use that much- only a fraction of what is needed for cutting.

Someone mentioned silicon bronze welding.  This is one that melts close to the base metal melt temp, but not quite (1700-2000 degrees).  It is something I've only done with TIG.  It is good for dissimilar metals, certain castings, or occasional oddball alloys that you don't have any other filler rod on hand for.  Once you recognize it, you'll spot it a lot out in the world.


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## whitmore (Mar 17, 2020)

dbb-the-bruce said:


> the intent is to be able to assemble sheet brass into small boxes. working with 1/16" or 1/8" thickness. Boxes 4 - 6" dimensions at the most.


Brass has a low-ish melting point, and it may be tricky to get a silver solder that will
flow before the whole project slumps.   Brass melts at 920 C, silver solders vary.  Sil-phos is around 800C, and
works well (without flux) on pure copper (melting point of copper 1352 C); 'hard' silver solder might be 790 C melting (Silvaloy 750)  which is uncomfortably
close, and 'easy' silver solders (Easy-Flo 635 C) contain cadmium, so there's some toxicity to worry about.

If temperatures are too close, a torch braze will be  hard to manage; oven brazing, with solder preformed, could work.


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## NortonDommi (Mar 17, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> A joint brazed with brass is not as strong as a welded joint or a silver brazed joint.


  I disagree.  A strong joint is 100% dependent on design.  Some of my motorcycles have Brazed slipjoints and they are the strong points in the frame.  The beauty of a slipjoint is that if damage ever occurs to a frame tube member they can be unsweated and a tube replaced.  
  I am a big fan of Castolin,( https://www.castolin.com/),Eutectic rods. A bit pricey but worth every cent. Like most things quality shows in ease of use  https://www.castolin.com/technologies?technology=brazing.  My favorite is https://www.castolin.com/product/16 which I buy as bare rod for tube work. It can be used as a Brazing rod and after the joint has partially cooled you can overlay the joint as if Bronze welding for extra reinforcement - very versatile. Comes in rods,(coated and uncoated),wire,foils, rings, powder.
  Many pneumatic and hydraulic fittings are also made up of Brazed parts.  As in most things correct design for the job is paramount.
   I think Oxy/Acet has a place in any shop as it is the single most versatile heating process there is.
100% agree on Victor being quality. I use their cutting tips and the difference between Victor and any other brand is extremely noticeable in use.


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## ericc (Mar 17, 2020)

For brass boxes, I'd use soft solder.  The lead free plumbing solder is cheap and fairly strong.  It is not strong enough, nor is the flux active enough for brazed carbide lathe tools. For that, you need silver solder or brass.  I do almost all of this tool work with a swirl flame propane torch.  A couple of strategically placed firebricks help a lot.  If I need more, I have a National torch, which uses oxy-propane.  I rarely fire up my oxyacetylene torch, but there is no substitute for welding steel.  Oh wait, there is.  A TIG welder.  Although this costs a little more, the increased capability is just amazing.  Highly recommended.  There is a huge bang for the buck for a small lift start TIG.  Lots of places sell them.  They need some practice, though.


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## Dabbler (Mar 17, 2020)

I did a lot of soft soldering on brass plate in the 60s during the slot car craze.  Very simple and cheap - a 75 watt soldering iron, some paste, and some solder.  that's all.... Soft soldered joints where you can't engineer a wide contact area can be fragile.  The more stress it takes, the wider the joint has to be.


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## Boswell (Mar 17, 2020)

Chris at Clicksping shows building a few boxes. Looks like he paints on a flux, lays the solder next to the joints and then heats it evenly until the solder wickes into the joints. At leas that is what it looks like to someone that has only done electrical soldering.


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## francist (Mar 17, 2020)

Maybe not applicable to the original question on boxes, but for those interested in a simple setup for smaller items this works well for me.

This is the product that I use, bought from Air Liquide a few years ago.



I stack a corner out of firebricks in any configuration that works for the object — main thing is you want a floor, a back or two sides to bounce the heat, and a roof. I set my piece on little bits of scrap — the smaller the better so as not to rob heat— and into the corner as far as I can but still get at it.





As I alluded to before, I think 1/2” is about as much as you might successfully do in a setup like this. Here’s my test piece of 1/2” bar that I used to see if making a boring bar would be doable. It heated this easily and the braze flowed well. This is just the dummy, so the actual geometry isn’t correct. I was just assessing size capabilities and the simple assembly of firebrick accomplished it fine. I expect a person could be a lot more scientific with the bricks as well, but I’m too impatient for that and just wing it.






Now back to your regular scheduled programming....

-frank


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## erikmannie (Mar 17, 2020)

NortonDommi said:


> I disagree.  A strong joint is 100% dependent on design.  Some of my motorcycles have Brazed slipjoints and they are the strong points in the frame.  The beauty of a slipjoint is that if damage ever occurs to a frame tube member they can be unsweated and a tube replaced.
> I am a big fan of Castolin,( https://www.castolin.com/),Eutectic rods. A bit pricey but worth every cent. Like most things quality shows in ease of use  https://www.castolin.com/technologies?technology=brazing.  My favorite is https://www.castolin.com/product/16 which I buy as bare rod for tube work. It can be used as a Brazing rod and after the joint has partially cooled you can overlay the joint as if Bronze welding for extra reinforcement - very versatile. Comes in rods,(coated and uncoated),wire,foils, rings, powder.
> Many pneumatic and hydraulic fittings are also made up of Brazed parts.  As in most things correct design for the job is paramount.
> I think Oxy/Acet has a place in any shop as it is the single most versatile heating process there is.
> 100% agree on Victor being quality. I use their cutting tips and the difference between Victor and any other brand is extremely noticeable in use.



I should have said, “All other things being equal, a bronze brazed joint is not as strong as a welded or silver brazed joint”. This is due to the relative properties of the materials in question, the least impressive of which is bronze. 

Don’t get me wrong, I love bronze. It is just not the first material that I go to when looking for strength.


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## dbb-the-bruce (Mar 18, 2020)

Thanks, lots of good advice and info.

Had some time to do a little research on my own based on the info here. Looks like I can probably do the kind of work I plan with a decent "jewelry" sized torch. Such as "Smith Little torch" with a set of tips.

Brazing vs. soldering - Since all the "silver solder" I've found melts and flows above 450C, I'll be brazing (according to the American Welding Society). Question answered!

I had never given any consideration to solder vs braze - I guess the point is that there are low temp solders (mostly for electric work) and some hobbyists choose to use them because you don't need as much heat. The stuff I'll be making is indented to be jewelry / high craftsmanship quality using higher temp solder.

Small / Jewelry torch kits are affordable and like most things, starting with a good quality kit is worth the expense.

One question- A lot of kits come with empty tanks, as I understand it when you get them filled, your tank will get swapped. So does that mean that the first thing that happens is I trade my shiny empty tank for a vintage tank with a nice patina? 

Will probably just go for  O/A for the higher temps. Next on the plate is safety research.


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## dbb-the-bruce (Mar 18, 2020)

francist said:


> Maybe not applicable to the original question on boxes, but for those interested in a simple setup for smaller items this works well for me.
> Now back to your regular scheduled programming....
> 
> -frank



What did you use for a torch/heat?


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## francist (Mar 18, 2020)

Just an ordinary propane torch and tip, nothing fancy. I think the tip is a pencil-flame instead of a broad fluffy one, but it’s not super precision by any stretch. Had it for years and years. The torch will get up enough heat by itself no problem, but without some surplus or something to contain it it goes away too rapidly. That’s where the corner comes in — holds it in the one spot and refracts it back onto the part.

-frank


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## Ken from ontario (Mar 18, 2020)

dbb-the-bruce said:


> Thanks, lots of good advice and info.
> 
> Had some time to do a little research on my own based on the info here. Looks like I can probably do the kind of work I plan with a decent "jewelry" sized torch. Such as "Smith Little torch" with a set of tips.
> 
> ...


Not too long ago I started a thread asking about O/A torches and smaller "jewelers' set", I ended up buying a Victor torch and two used bottles for Oxygen and Acetylene, I would recommend getting them from your local welding supply store, the new sets  you find on Amazon or anywhere else usually are sold empty and you *may *need to swap them with older ones any way since many LWS do not fill onsite, it would be ideal if they did.

As far as Smith's little torch, I bought one of those , but you should know they are designed for soldering/brazing small pieces like rings, chain links etc. the bigger tips #6 and #7 are most used for brazing, but if the workpiece is too big , it'll act like a heat sink and would take a long time to braze anything that's heavy /thick, it will work but you end up wasting a lot of gas and time to achieve your goal. a regular torch with #00 tip will do the same job in faction of the time.
I use my Smith torch mostly for soldering copper, and sometimes for brazing very small pieces. it will be alright for silver brazing bandsaw blades or stuff like that, but a small MAPP torch will do the same thing.
This of course is my opinion, I'm sure there are more experienced members that will disagree with me but I still think you should do your homework and find out what you'll be using your O/A set for, then get the proper torch, BTW, there are more efficient Jeweler's torch that Mikey mentioned in that thread I posted(Meco Midget), those I couldn't find in Canada but they do sound more capable than Smith's little torch.


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## dbb-the-bruce (Mar 18, 2020)

Ken from ontario said:


> Not too long ago I started a thread asking about O/A torches and smaller "jewelers' set", I ended up buying a Victor torch and two used bottles for Oxygen and Acetylene, I would recommend getting them from your local welding supply store, the new sets  you find on Amazon or anywhere else usually are sold empty and you *may *need to swap them with older ones any way since many LWS do not fill onsite, it would be ideal if they did.



Yeah, noticing that a lot are sold without tanks. So the first time I buy gas, I pay a bottle deposit that I never get back unless I quit using gas?

I'm going to check out some of the other medium small torches. I really don't need a huge rig - it's not going to get tons of use and storage is at a premium.

I did check Craigs list and Marketplace - but not knowing a lot, I'm a little shy about buying something used.


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## Ken from ontario (Mar 18, 2020)

dbb-the-bruce said:


> Yeah, noticing that a lot are sold without tanks. So the first time I buy gas, I pay a bottle deposit that I never get back unless I quit using gas?


If you buy the smaller size/hobby size tanks, (like" M" size  acetylene) and for Oxygen (Q or L?) you'll own them up front, you'll get two tanks full of gas and the only time you'll swap them is in when you run out of gas and then you'll only pay for the fill up, these gas bottle in Canada need to be hydro tested every 5 years, I'm not sure about your state.


dbb-the-bruce said:


> I'm going to check out some of the other medium small torches. I really don't need a huge rig - it's not going to get tons of use and storage is at a premium.
> 
> I did check Craigs list and Marketplace - but not knowing a lot, I'm a little shy about buying something used.


You are right ,you'll be alright with a medium size or even a smaller torch, Bob and Mikey gave me good advice on the size and type of torches in that thread I linked, the medium size Victor torch is what I got and it's plenty for my use . I also have heard good reviews on MECO by other welders from another site.

Check out Facebook market place and CL for a good used set with a well made torch,(Smith, Victor, Harris)  and fill/exchange the tanks when they are empty.
Have fun.
Ken.


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## NortonDommi (Mar 19, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I should have said, “All other things being equal, a bronze brazed joint is not as strong as a welded or silver brazed joint”. This is due to the relative properties of the materials in question, the least impressive of which is bronze.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I love bronze. It is just not the first material that I go to when looking for strength.


  Hi *erikmannie,
*I'm not just being ornery but again I have to disagree, the reason being I had a *MAJOR* disagreement about this some 30 odd years ago with the manager of the local vehicle testing station who failed a friends mini chopper motorcycle because he had Bronze welded the frame together.  I should note that my friend had a business building custom racing bicycles and was well equipped with a vapor-flux unit, frame jig etc and very experienced,( he was the one who put me onto Castolin products).  I got involved as he knew I had some literature to back up his claim the motor bike was safe.
  Upshot was the manager chucked my books on the floor and called both of us nasty names.  A business acquaintance at the time was the national manager for Reynolds Tubing Company and I got him on the 'phone.  Testing station manager told him he was an idiot.
  Result was testing station guy lost his job a week later.  Reynolds Tubing Company specifically state that Brazing with a slip joint or Bronze welding is the preferred method of joining their high strength tubing as it does not affect the UTS or temper like fusion welding and that with Bronze welding the fillet provides more strength by spreading any forces over the joint.
  Somewhere I have the Reynolds Company's 'Handbook of steel Tubing' and could scan the relevant pages.

  Bronze not having enough strength?  There are many types and many of the Admiralty Bronzes in particular make most of the common steels look like 98 lb weaklings.  Bronze Lloyd's Register marine rated screws and bolts are expensive for a reason and tougher than nails.

  At the end of the day as long as a joint is well designed and properly made it will most likely be stronger than the surrounding material and isn't going to break and that is all that matters.


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## WCraig (Mar 19, 2020)

A quick scan of Kijiji in my area showed this:






The seller describes this:  "Bernzomatic [sic] Oxy Map [sic] Torch - Brazing Torch".

Is this a capable setup?  I know I can get MAPP bottles at Canadian Tire and elsewhere.  Where does one even get the oxygen bottles?  

Craig


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## Dabbler (Mar 19, 2020)

@WCraig yes, with reservations.  if it is cheap, why not give it a try?  

I learned brazing 45 years ago with oxy acetylene, and still silver solder my carbides on the same way.  I have 3 MAP torches for plumbing work, and wouldn't think of using one to braze a carbide on.  Perhaps I will try it soon, and report back.


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## rwm (Mar 19, 2020)

My setup uses a Smith little torch with an Oxygen concentrator. That way I don't have to deal with a gas supplier for O2 and I can just use a disposable propane or MAPP cylinder. Very easy and convenient. It is plenty hot to braze anything small.
Robert


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## Dabbler (Mar 19, 2020)

@rwm cool!  I never heard of an Oxygen concentrator before!  I looked it up, and it looks slick!  Sounds like you nave a nice setup!


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## rwm (Mar 19, 2020)

I have posted this before so apologies if you have seen it:



You can get these on CL for less than $200

Robert


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## mikey (Mar 19, 2020)

Ken from ontario said:


> If you buy the smaller size/hobby size tanks, (like" M" size  acetylene) and for Oxygen (Q or L?) you'll own them up front, you'll get two tanks full of gas and the only time you'll swap them is in when you run out of gas and then you'll only pay for the fill up, these gas bottle in Canada need to be hydro tested every 5 years, I'm not sure about your state.
> 
> You are right ,you'll be alright with a medium size or even a smaller torch, Bob and Mikey gave me good advice on the size and type of torches in that thread I linked, the medium size Victor torch is what I got and it's plenty for my use . I also have heard good reviews on MECO by other welders from another site.



I'm all for buying the right tool for the job but a torch is one of those tools that allow you to do many other jobs besides just brazing joints on a box or silver soldering with soft solder.

I'm no expert welder by any means but I've used O/A torches for most of my life and wouldn't want to be without one. Nowadays, I have no use for a full sized torch, although I own them. Mostly I use the Meco Midget like Ken said and it is good for almost any gas welding I'm likely to do. Unlike the little Smith torches, this one can actually weld steel, aluminum; it will braze and silver solder with ease and I often use it to harden smaller tool steel projects. 

The Meco Midget weight about 6 oz. Tin Man Tech also sells lightweight hoses that make using this little torch very comfortable. Tips are available for most jobs in a hobby shop and the flame adjustment is very precise. Check out the Youtube videos on this torch. It is far more capable than you might think.

If you want a Mapp gas torch, look at the Bernzomatic TS8000. Very hot flame that will heat treat O-1 steel easily. It will do what I had to use two propane torches to do before.


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## Ken from ontario (Mar 19, 2020)

mikey said:


> I'm all for buying the right tool for the job but a torch is one of those tools that allow you to do many other jobs besides just brazing joints on a box or silver soldering with soft solder.
> 
> I'm no expert welder by any means but I've used O/A torches for most of my life and wouldn't want to be without one. Nowadays, I have no use for a full sized torch, although I own them. Mostly I use the Meco Midget like Ken said and it is good for almost any gas welding I'm likely to do. Unlike the little Smith torches, this one can actually weld steel, aluminum; it will braze and silver solder with ease and I often use it to harden smaller tool steel projects.
> 
> ...


For Propane/Mapp usage I would also highly recommend TS8000.
I looked for that Meco Midget up here but no luck,  other than Meco, I have heard so much about another torch called HENROB 2000, it is supposed to be light weight, throws a lot of heat and also saves gas, I think the basic model is around $300 USD ,I think it looks a bit too big and uncomfortable, this is a video on a few good torches, he mentions the Meco and likes it a lot.


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## Dabbler (Mar 19, 2020)

I was considering switching to propane oxy, but the equipment cost seemed prohibitive.  I've got a TIG and just bought a bunch of silicon bronze TIG welding rods.  Gonna give that a try instead.  Tired of getting acetylene refills.


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## rwm (Mar 19, 2020)

I have tried TIG brazing with very poor results! I always seem to melt the base metal and the resultant braze is very weak. It may look OK but it fails under load. I will be curious to see your results. I would suggest gas torch for brazing and TIG for welding.
Robert


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## erikmannie (Mar 19, 2020)

NortonDommi said:


> Hi *erikmannie,
> *I'm not just being ornery but again I have to disagree, the reason being I had a *MAJOR* disagreement about this some 30 odd years ago with the manager of the local vehicle testing station who failed a friends mini chopper motorcycle because he had Bronze welded the frame together.  I should note that my friend had a business building custom racing bicycles and was well equipped with a vapor-flux unit, frame jig etc and very experienced,( he was the one who put me onto Castolin products).  I got involved as he knew I had some literature to back up his claim the motor bike was safe.
> Upshot was the manager chucked my books on the floor and called both of us nasty names.  A business acquaintance at the time was the national manager for Reynolds Tubing Company and I got him on the 'phone.  Testing station manager told him he was an idiot.
> Result was testing station guy lost his job a week later.  Reynolds Tubing Company specifically state that Brazing with a slip joint or Bronze welding is the preferred method of joining their high strength tubing as it does not affect the UTS or temper like fusion welding and that with Bronze welding the fillet provides more strength by spreading any forces over the joint.
> ...



Yes, brazed or welded properly, the joint will be stronger than the base material.


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## Dabbler (Mar 20, 2020)

rwm said:


> I have tried TIG brazing with very poor results!



I'm curious too!  We'll see what I get:  I usually silver solder (with oxy acetlyene)  instead of braze, and that works fine...


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## royesses (Mar 20, 2020)

I set my tig on AC for silicon bronze for the cleaning action. Here is video from Jodi of Welding tips and tricks web forum:





Roy


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## NortonDommi (Mar 21, 2020)

Ken from ontario said:


> For Propane/Mapp usage I would also highly recommend TS8000.
> I looked for that Meco Midget up here but no luck,  other than Meco, I have heard so much about another torch called HENROB 2000, it is supposed to be light weight, throws a lot of heat and also saves gas, I think the basic model is around $300 USD ,I think it looks a bit too big and uncomfortable, this is a video on a few good torches, he mentions the Meco and likes it a lot.


  I bought a Henrob a couple of months ago. Had to make new hoses as we use a different fitting than U.S.A. I wouldn't call it light but the weight is in a small package.  Takes a bit of getting used too after years of a full size conventional unit but I was amazed at just how easy it is to use and most times no flux necessary! The smallest tip is fine for jewelry and the No.3 I have welded 3/8" Cast Iron.  I find they cutting a little awkward mainly because of the tip distance and I have a few decades of cutting with a conventional torch and a guides when necessary.  Sure I'll get the hang of it.  Very impressed with how frugal on gas it is.


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## rwm (Mar 21, 2020)

Jodi has another video where he destruction tests TIG brazed joints. Pretty weak. I think the problem is that if you get ANY melting of the base metal you get brittle inter-metallic alloys in the joint. Theoretically, if you could get no melting of the base you should have the same result. 
Robert


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## stioc (Apr 13, 2020)

I have pretty much the same setup as @francist. I use 56% silver Harris filler ($24 on Amazon) because the more silver the lower the melting point. The idea is the part has to be hot enough to melt the filler. Basic propane, a couple of firebricks and it's plenty strong for joining small household parts. Cost about $35 if you already have a propane torch. By all means get a victor portable oxy/acyt setup if you need it.

I have a TIG, MIG and Stick but for small stuff why break out the big guys? It's like why break out my plasma cutter if a few licks of the cutoff wheel will do the job or why break out the SnapOn Verus if the Autel can do the job, or why break out the CNC mill if the 3D printer can mange a part or why break out the Gibson if the Yamaha can play the tune stuck in my head. OK enough humble-bragging for a while, it's the cabin fever! 

EDIT: A good, short read on silver soldering vs bronze brazing http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/blog/silver-solder-braze/


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## rwm (Apr 22, 2020)

Stioc makes a great point about silver solder is the melting point. The lowest MP silver solder is the 56%. If you go with a lesser Ag concentration like 45% the MP is higher and you may need a hotter flame or a better torch. For straight propane or MAPP I would only use the 56% and only for small parts.
Robert


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## dbb-the-bruce (Apr 25, 2020)

So I kinda started this thread and then charged off and got distracted.....
I ended up with a small/medium air/acetylene torch. Got all the larger tips that it can handle.




I'm getting better at the solder/braising thing. Only on my fifth or so attempt at building a cube and getting better. Here is my full "hot table":



Six different types of solder, barrier flux, flow flux, pickle pot, third hand, multiple hot pads, a cool touch to light your torch thingy....
And also got a bunch of enameling to mess around with.  
Sorry this isn't much about machining, but my SouthBend 9 is in the background, and there's a mini-mill off to the right.

Thanks so much for all the good advice.


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## rwm (Apr 25, 2020)

I love it! I wish I had space to dedicate to something like your bench.
Robert


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## dbb-the-bruce (Apr 25, 2020)

rwm said:


> I love it! I wish I had space to dedicate to something like your bench.
> Robert


It's also my dirty bench - teardown and clean up. And in the very distant past, it was my kitchen table!


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## John_Dennis (Apr 29, 2020)

One of the things you have to watch when soldering is to be sure that the parts are not force fitted.  In some cases if the metal is under tension when the solder is applied it can cause a "Liquid Metal Fracture".  I read about this on this forum years ago and have had several welders and machinist confirm that it is a known problem.

I have a HHO hydrogen welder that I use to solder stainless wire for orthodontic appliances.  It is extremely hot, much hotter than oxy/acetylene.  The reason that I use it is that I can not have compressed gas in my building.  It is a very expensive torch compared to an oxy acetylene rig.


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## Dabbler (Apr 30, 2020)

@John_Dennis Offshore HHO rigs can be had for a small outlay.  I know their quality isn't as good as commercial ones, but for a hobbyist brazing a few carbides per year it might be the best choice.


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## John_Dennis (Apr 30, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> @John_Dennis Offshore HHO rigs can be had for a small outlay.  I know their quality isn't as good as commercial ones, but for a hobbyist brazing a few carbides per year it might be the best choice.



The import torches may work well, I havent tried any of them.  One thing to consider though is that the electrolyte in the tank is corrosive so the parts are going to be wearing out even when not in use.


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## Dabbler (Apr 30, 2020)

@John_Dennis the user manual usually recommends draining the tank into a suitable container when not in use.


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## John_Dennis (Apr 30, 2020)

That electrolyte solution is nasty stuff, most people use a turkey baster to empty the tank and then rinse it out.  It is a lot of work for occasional use.  I use a TurboBraze, it would not work well on large items. I think I could braze a carbide onto a .25 bar but anything bigger would be difficult.


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## ericc (Apr 30, 2020)

I think you could get away with one of those little butane cylinder torches with an oxygen concentrator in a restricted building.  This is a miniscule amount of compressed gas.  It is comparable to the amount of compressed gas in a can of whipped cream, and at a lower pressure.  By the way, I carry a pretty nasty load of compressed gas all the time, and it is flammable.  I rarely have an accident, but it can cause quite a commotion in an elevator.


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## ACHiPo (Dec 11, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> that is a unit that creates hydrogen gas and oxygen from distilled water and an electric current.  If you go to sites such as banggood.com and search on hho, you can see pictures of the unit they sell.  There are a few videos on youtube on using an HHO torch, which should be instructive.
> 
> The nice thing about HHO is that you get the control and intensity of a gas torch, without the problems of bottled gases.


Here I find myself down another rabbit hole...

I silver brazed a lugged bike frame (Reynolds 531 double-butted chrome moly tubing and Italian lugs) with OxyAcetylene many (like 40) years ago in my 'yout'. Now I find myself wanting to build a model engine requiring silver brazing (maybe soldering would be ok?) without an OA rig and without an inclination to have one more big item in my shop that I only use periodically, so I'm considering alternatives.

1. Mini OA set. About $300 for a Victor or Harris set up. How long do the tanks last?
2. HOH set. Never knew about this before last night (thanks Dabbler!)--turns out it was the first gas welding/brazing heat source. Uses DI water and KOH and electricity to generate hydrogen and oxygen. About the same price as a mini OA set.  No nasty carbon from acetylene.  A little worried about the KOH electrolyte though?  Any idea about the cost of consumables?  The KOH doesn't seem too expensive, but I don't know how much is used?  The DI water is easy.  Are there consumable electrodes?





*Acrylic Flame Polisher Oxygen-hydrogen Generator Water Welder Polishing Machine*
95L flame polishing machine HHO welder from U.S. Solid





 ussolid.com
3. MAP gas. I already have a Bernzomatic TS4000 turbo torch and MAP/Pro gas.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/BernzOmati...mqQVFH889XbzbhT61RoaAqGGEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Mebbe I should just pick up some Harris Safety-silv and Stay-silv and give it a go?




*Harris Safety-Silv 56 Brazing Kit 56KPOP*
Buy Harris Safety-Silv 56 Brazing Kit 56KPOP today at the lowest prices anywhere. Fast, free shipping. Get yours now!



www.harrisweldingsupplies.com

Seems like with a fire brick "furnace" the torch might produce enough energy to work for hard silver brazing? By the way, who knew there were a bunch of different kinds of firebrick? Lightweight is much less conductive that hard brick, but fragile. Yet another rabbit hole.

Curiouser and curiouser!


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## ACHiPo (Dec 11, 2020)

rwm said:


> I have posted this before so apologies if you have seen it:
> 
> View attachment 317474
> 
> ...


I've heard these operate (they are used for COPD patients) and it sounds like they pulse.  Do they deliver a constant pressure of O2?


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## Mitch Alsup (Dec 11, 2020)

The hospital units (COPD) work by using Pressure Swing Adsorbers; which run a 4 cycle (pulsing) process to take 19% O2 from the air and create 95%+ O2 at rates acceptable to a person with partially functioning lungs. 

I wonder (doubt) if they have enough volume to run an oxy-acetelene torch at high enough heat rates.

The DI water separator just uses electricity to decompose water into H2 and O2. The more electricity, the more H2 and O2.


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## Larry$ (Dec 11, 2020)

I don't have a Oxy Acet set any more and prefer that over propane or Mapp.  I recently silver soldered carbide to steel with Mapp. Worked but took a long time to get everything hot enough. I was using some fire bricks as a reflector/heat trap. I was surprised it worked, especially since the grade of carbide wasn't ideal for brazing or silver solder.


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## aaronrumple (Dec 11, 2020)

Oxygen/Propane is good for sliver solder if you don't like keeping acetylene around.
Just pull the tank off the BBQ.


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## ACHiPo (Dec 12, 2020)

Ok I ordered 55% silver solder/braze wire with a jar of flux.  Will try it with my Mapp/Pro and see what happens


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## rwm (Dec 12, 2020)

I think you mean 56%. They use that % because it is the lowest melting point of the alloy. Anyway, it will work fine for small parts. Please show us how it goes.
Robert


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## ACHiPo (Dec 12, 2020)

rwm said:


> I think you mean 56%. They use that % because it is the lowest melting point of the alloy. Anyway, it will work fine for small parts. Please show us how it goes.
> Robert


In the immortal words of Michael Keaton in Mr. Mom, "55, 56, whatever it takes"  

Yes I meant 56%


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## rwm (Dec 12, 2020)

I wired my entire shop for 221v...
R


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## ACHiPo (Dec 12, 2020)

rwm said:


> I wired my entire shop for 221v...
> R


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