# putting a load on the lathe without doing anything !



## Bob Kelly III (Nov 1, 2019)

when I am running in back gears I get this click, click ,click.... if I really put a load on it I get this clank, clank clank.... so something ain't right  !
but what ? I can't see what is going on when I'm using it...so I got to thinking I could take a board and put it between the chuck and tool post amd squeeze the board
into the chuck and put a load on the machine when it's running and I can actually look and see what is going on with the lathe....
the problem is to see down into the bull gears the lid has to be up, when the lid is up the tension is taken off the belt....
so it's a crawl around behind the lathe with a flashlight thing....
I think the bull gear is flopping back and forth under load.... if so I need to adjust the bull gear rack/knob in a tooth or out a tooth to make it fit better.
....when the load is heavy I can see the bull gear enguagement knob bouncing in and out  and it coincides with the clank... so I think that is the culprit....
i read somewhere that it may be necessary to play with the tooth engagement as your putting the Rack/knob in in order to get it spot on.
I haven't done that yet..... or bolted the lathe to the floor ........ too many irons in the fire I guess ! LOL
the prawl that locks the knob in the out position(back gears engaged) comes out about 1/2" past the case allowing alot of flex inside.. i think the idea is to eliminate that free play past the prawl......( i think...i don't really know !)
in order to get it to stop flopping around under a load !  
.....
has anyone with a Logan lathe had this problem before ?
....
maybe I'll try that before I try burning up a board with the chuck ! LOL......
Bob.....


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## whitmore (Nov 1, 2019)

Bob Kelly III said:


> when I am running in back gears I get this click, click ,click.... if I really put a load on it I get this clank, clank clank.... so something ain't right



My experience with printers tells  me all the rotating parts have a capability to make glitches.   If you can TIME the ticks (sound
recording into a good clocked data stream is fairly easy, with laptop computers having microphones...) you might
be able to eliminate the gears that don't rotate at that period.

A few of the possibilities: bent shaft, flawed tooth, embedded rocks, and oval-shaped journal bearings (shaft
can move back/forth from racetrack end A to racetrack end B).


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## Chuck K (Nov 1, 2019)

Bob Kelly III said:


> when I am running in back gears I get this click, click ,click.... if I really put a load on it I get this clank, clank clank.... so something ain't right  !
> but what ? I can't see what is going on when I'm using it...so I got to thinking I could take a board and put it between the chuck and tool post amd squeeze the board
> into the chuck and put a load on the machine when it's running and I can actually look and see what is going on with the lathe....
> the problem is to see down into the bull gears the lid has to be up, when the lid is up the tension is taken off the belt....
> ...





Bob Kelly III said:


> when I am running in back gears I get this click, click ,click.... if I really put a load on it I get this clank, clank clank.... so something ain't right  !
> but what ? I can't see what is going on when I'm using it...so I got to thinking I could take a board and put it between the chuck and tool post amd squeeze the board
> into the chuck and put a load on the machine when it's running and I can actually look and see what is going on with the lathe....
> the problem is to see down into the bull gears the lid has to be up, when the lid is up the tension is taken off the belt....
> ...


Yep,  you just need to adjust your back gear engagement. You might not get it to run silent in back gear but things shouldn't be jumping around.


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## Bob Kelly III (Nov 2, 2019)

ok thank you ! I will attempt to fix that ! 
Bob...


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## Bob Kelly III (Nov 2, 2019)

well, that didn't go as planned....i took the back gears knob off and tried to rotate the cam that the back gears sit on and put the knob back in....
can't be done from that position !!!!  so I made up a hook out of pressed sheet metal from a folding bed frame, trimmed it to fit under the hood
and then played with the back gears raising them a bit each time I put the knob in....  however... the only place the backgears actually work is all the way up  with holding pressure on it and then put in the knob and that rotates the cam and gear back out of mesh.
pull it out and it will engage the bull gears.... however a bit sloppy....it needs to go one more tooth on the cam before engaging the knob shaft's rack..... and I am sure that would pull it up snug..... however How in the heck can you do that ? I need to get in there with a long slot screwdriver
 and turn the cam to the right one tooth's width and then insert the knob shaft... but a screwdriver is in the way then, remove the screwdriver and you lose everything and the cam rotates to its lowest point... i don't think there is enough room for a piece of bailing wire to go in there... it's going to have to be done from the bottom.... I'm no contortionist and that stuff ain't easy fer me ! LOL.....
but I got it back where it was... it works but still has slop under a load....   
i gott'a think on this awhile.... I thought it would be an easy adjustment...and it would be, if you could reach the darn thing ! my hands are too fat !
and there seems to be no way to hold that cam from turning..... the end of that cam 's shaft sticks through the front of the headstock.... it's flush with no holes.... if it was drilled and tapped a bolt could be inserted and a wrench used to hold the cam in any position...even a 1/4" x 20 bolt would do the trick just something to turn the cam with as your inserting the in/out knob....
.....
while I was under the hood ....so to speak . the v belt pulley has a screw missing over the oil hole for that long bushing inside it....
so I made one up from a brass toilet bolt.... and then wiped the oil off the pulleys once again after I oiled the thing one last time
.....
I am quickly coming to realise that v belts on a lathe is a really bad idea... you gott'a oil that lathe allot and when you do you will eventually get oil on the v belts.... and they will slip........
and if your an oil nut like me you oil the ting too much to begin with and that just compounds the problem ! ...there is only one spot on the lathe that isn't soaked in oil.... that is the 2ndary drive for the lathe ( it has sealed bearings in it....no zerks !) and it still has a light powder coating of rust on it all back there..... I think I will use one of my very Oily rags and just wipe down everything that looks brown back there ! LOL....
....
anyway.... i can't help but wonder if there is an easy way to set the back gear lever correctly....
when I got it it was assembled incorrectly and working in reverse ! LOL... someone posted a link to an article on how to adjust the back gears but I cannot find that link now ! Bummer deal dude !
.....
C ya !
Bob.....


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## Bob Kelly III (Nov 2, 2019)

i found that article it is the most in-depth one I have seen on the subject
I re post it here hoping no one objects !
.....
*From:*  "Scott S. Logan" <ssl@l****.com>
*Date:* Tue Apr 18, 2000 7:53 am
*Subject:* Logan Lathe Back Gears



I recently posted the following on rec.crafts.metalworking, and thought some
here might find it useful.

There is obviously a lot of confusion here and elsewhere on the Back
Gear engagement for Logan Lathes, so I will try to explain. BTW,
don't anyone feel bad, I get phone calls like this about every week.

On ALL Logan 10" and 11" Lathes, as well as Montgomery Wards
Power-Kraft Lathes, there is a rod (called the Shifter Rack) on the
front of the Headstock which engages the Back Gears. This rod has a
rack cut into the underside, not visible from outside in normal
operation.

The Shifter Rack also has a spring-loaded latch on the underside, just
behind the knob. See
http://www.lathe.com/part_sht/headstock/la-56.htm

To engage the Back Gears, this rod is PULLED OUT, after pulling out
the pin on the Bull Gear (800 Series lathes prior to s/n 37063 have a
lever on the Bull Gear).

If the Shifter Rack is "out of synch" and requires adjustment, the
procedure is as follows:

1. Remove LA-243 collar from back end of Shifter Rack

2. Pull Shifter Rack Assembly forward, completely out of the
Headstock.

3. Roll the eccentric shaft so that Back Gears are in mesh with the
Bull Gear and Cone Pinion. This part can be difficult. Sometimes you
can reach around the Cone Pulley and cause the eccentric to roll
around, otherwise you need to push on the gear that is engaged by the
Shifter Rack.

4. Slide the Shifter Rack into the Headstock, and it will engage the
gear, causing the eccentric to roll around to the disengaged position.

5. Reassemble the collar on the back side of the Shifter Rack.

6. Pull the Shifter Rack out, and check for proper engagement of the
Back Gears. If there is excessive backlash, repeat the entire
procedure, trying to "catch" a different tooth with the Shifter Rack.

The design of the Back Gear arrangement on these lathes provides for
positive lock in of the Back Gears, and allows cuts to be made up to
full capacity either in forward or reverse spindle directions. I have
taken cuts on an 11" Logan on 8" diameter Cast Iron at 0.06" deep,
without difficulty.

.....
note that he says .....
6.   "Pull the Shifter Rack out, and check for proper engagement of the
Back Gears. If there is excessive backlash, repeat the entire
procedure, trying to "catch" a different tooth with the Shifter Rack."
.... I am fairly certain this is where my problem lies !  I think to catch a different tooth on the cam gear you need to turn the cam gear itself a bit
in the clockwise direction.... wherein lies the problem !
.....perhaps I am going about this all wrong ...why not use a bungee cord to pull the back gears up and into mesh and free up both hands
then take a screwdriver and roll the cam gear a bit forward and then insert the lever rack/knob ?
I'll give that a try when it is above freezing in the shop tomorrow ! right now it's down right cold out there !
....( it should roll in the clockwise direction till the gears are fully meshed and then stop turning...so it won't turn much in that direction ! )
Bob......


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## Chuck K (Nov 2, 2019)

One thing you can do next time you have that shaft out is mill a slot in the end for a screwdriver. I haven't had a Logan for a while  but I'm sure that I've posted pics on here of one of mine with the slot milled in it.  I stole that idea from someone else....can't remember who or I would give the credit due.


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## Chuck K (Nov 2, 2019)

I saw the slotted shaft in Redlinemans "logan 200 rescue" thread.


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## Bob Kelly III (Nov 2, 2019)

and I looked all over and I couldn't find that thread ! LOL
anyway.... I tried the bungee cord trick hooked one end to the lid and looped the bungee cord down under the back gears shaft and up in front by the pulley and case of the head stock, pulled it tight and looped it over the knob on the lid then back down to hook something to keep it tight...
then I could turn the cam for the back gear engagement  at will , it wanted to spring back of course because of the pull
but contrary to my theory the cam will rotate 360 degrees... so what I did was just let it find its uppermost position under the bungee cord tension and then push the gear a bit with the screwdriver and then put the rack/handle back in.... so I set it to one tooth past the apex of the cam
checked it by eyeball and it was moving the back gears to the apex of the cam when the fiddling was all done....  the slop in the rack knob
is still there but I don't think any back pressure will be on it now sense the cam is turned just a bit more.... 
i put it in back gears and to be honest I couldn't really tell if I accomplished anything without putting something in the chuck and taking a big bite !
... but I........ THINK........ it is better !  LOL....
the click click click is even more pronounced now though.... so I did something ( made a tighter fit I assume ! ) but that is because of the 2 tooth repair job that was done by the pre-previous owner .... his screw repairs ! .... eventually I want to repair that with brazing as well.
....
so I live with the click click click for now ! ....
oh well, i tried ! HAHAHAHAHA
....
Bob......


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## Bob Kelly III (Nov 4, 2019)

when I had the spindle off ( several times) I did take a bright flashlight and check the back gears they do have all their teeth !
and I smeared some white grease on the gears  while I was there.....
after having done that I wonder about the sanity of using grease on those gears and not oil....
now I have small gobs of grease hanging off the ends of the shafts threatening to collect anything that comes by....i think it would be wiser to use
a thick ,sticky chain saw bar oil on the back gears than grease  ( I have 4 chainsaws but no bar oil....don't that figure ?)
 .....
i was out to the shop earlier setting up for a attempt on single point threading again....when I got derailed by a guy looking at my vehicles for sale
and I never made it back out there.
....I made a new 60 deg. thread cutter with a carbide tip that should end my dull tool scenario I hope ! 
......
I also read something very interesting on chatter today.... it explained what it is how it works and how to prevent it. or at the very least how to reduce the chances of it happening !
one of the things was moving the tool to the Other side of the tool post, something I had never thought of doing before ! 
in theory it will remove the tendency of the tool to go down and spring back into the work....which causes the chatter .
....
Bob..........


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## rock_breaker (Nov 20, 2019)

Bob Kelly III said:


> i read somewhere that it may be necessary to play with the tooth engagement as your putting the Rack/knob in in order to get it spot on.


My Clausing does that due to heavy load pushing the gears apart. When I notice the noise I pull the back gear engagement lever back into full engagement.
Have a good day
Ray


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## Bob Kelly III (Nov 21, 2019)

I noticed when cutting the outside edge of a 3" flat pulley in back gears that the back gear knob was going in and out ! 
sense I have re adjusted that, so that the rack positions the gear at the APEX of it's travel ,..... i have not seen the back gear knob move at all
..... the lathe is noisier in back gears now.... no doubt, but I think it is functioning much better than it was. and I don't hear the back gears flopping back and forth in there now...... though I have not faced that 3" pulley sense.... so it's hard to say !
Bob....


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