# Vintage watchmakers lathes?



## Aaron_W (Jan 19, 2020)

I don't know if we have any watchmaker / clockmakers on the forum, but I have a question if we do.

I'm curious about vintage watchmakers lathes. I recently got a book on small lathes and the various watchmakers lathes are covered in some detail, but the book was originally published in the 1950s when there were not many small lathes suitable for watchmaking other than these watchmakers lathes.

I see them on ebay selling for a few hundred to a few thousand dollars. I am assuming at least the higher end are collectors, old, often Swiss or German, built like a Swiss watch... yeah, I can imagine there is a collectors market for some of these.

I'm curious about the practical application, are these still the preferred choice for making parts for clocks and watches, or are they more in the realm of tradition, like photographers who use actual film, or glass plates?

There are many modern small lathes these days which can be set up to use watchmakers collets. I'm assuming these vintage lathes are no match for a $12,000 Levin but what about a Taig,  Sherline or 7x Chinese lathe set up for watchmaking? I know Sherline has its fans among watchmakers, but I don't follow the other two closely enough to know how much they are used.

There was a Mr Pete video where he goes to the shop of a friend who restores old clocks. He is set up with a Sherline lathe and mill, which appear to be his primary machines but he also had a couple of vintage watchmakers lathes set up. They didn't go into the why's of his tool selection, so don't know if they were set up for specific functions, used for the most precise work or if the vintage lathes had sentimental attachment so he still uses them.


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## David S (Jan 19, 2020)

I repair old clocks and find that my Atlas 618 is just the right size for me, with all the custom accessories I have made over the past decade or so.  Having said this, a lot of clock repair & watch repair people use the Sherline lathe and companion mill, and swear by them.

Most old watch makers lathes were designed to be used with a graver sort of like wood turning, and there are a number of folks that are proficient with gravers.  I prefer the accuracy of calibrated cross feed and compound dials.

Some people that use an engine lathe (Sherline etc), will often resort to their watch makers lathe when they have to reproduce or copy and existing complex shaped part like a finial, or thumb screw, where cutting free form is much quicker and the part doesn't have to be dimensionally accurate.

David


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## Aaron_W (Jan 19, 2020)

Thank you that all makes sense, particularly the bit about the gravers. I've just started reading The Watchmaker's and Model Engineer's lathe by de Carle. I'm finding it very interesting, but he doesn't really address this point. or at least I haven't gotten there yet if he does.

Sherline does sell a T-rest fixture to use with gravers,  but that requires removing the saddle and cross slide and then mounting the T rest which could be a nuisance if just for one part as well as time consuming. I could certainly see where one might use a conventionally configured lathe for the work is suited to it, and then have a second set up for gravers. If you are going to buy a second then a watchmakers lathe designed for that use makes sense. 

These vintage lathes seem an odd combination of precision being finely crafted, but also a bit crude with their resemblance to a wood lathe. 


This is a big part of why I'm loving this machining hobby. Every time I think I kind of know what is going on I find another rabbit hole to explore.


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## ACHiPo (Jan 19, 2020)

Aaron,
I dabbled in watch repair for a bit.  For watch making a Schaublin 102 or Levin are arguably the best IF you're actually turning pinions.  Other lathes like Derbyshire, Boley-Leinen, etc. are fine as well, but they must be in pristine condition (rarely the case given the age).  Run out and alignment needs to be in the millionths, with absolute smooth motion (no vibration).  You generally need to get your face right into the work with a loupe, so overall scale and size is important as well.  Finally as you state above being able to sharpen and use hand gravers is imperative--something I never got around to try.

Here's an interesting blog by a relatively young watchmaker (he has been practicing about 10 years I think)


			http://watchmakingblog.com/
		


And another quite accomplished watchmaker hobbyist...








						Adventures in Watchmaking
					

A journal of experiences in watchmaking



					watchmaking.weebly.com
				




These sites are useful for tools and parts...


			Dave's Watch Parts and Tools
		






						Shopping
					






					www.ottofrei.com
				








						Esslinger Watchmakers Tools and Watch Parts
					

Watchmakers parts and watch repair tools and supplies including watch straps, batteries, movements, and clasps




					www.esslinger.com
				





Evan


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## ACHiPo (Jan 19, 2020)

P.S. I have a lot of books if you're interested.  And tools.  And watches.

Welcome to the rabbit hole!


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## Aaron_W (Jan 19, 2020)

Thanks Evan, I didn't know you were interested in watches/clocks. I've loved antique "grandfather" clocks and clockwork devices since I was a small child. I have bought a couple of books just to see what I'm looking at.

I'm not ready to dive in just yet, and when I do start my first project I'm realistically hoping for Timex knockoff, not Rolex.


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## Forty Niner (Jan 19, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I don't know if we have any watchmaker / clockmakers on the forum, but I have a question if we do.


I have a small antique clock collection and repair my own clocks.  It is a hobby I enjoy. I've only been doing this for about 8 years so I don't really claim to be a "clockmaker". I have a Sherline Mill, a couple of Sherline Lathes, a Taig Lathe, and four old Boley and Levin watchmakers lathes.  I let the task/job at hand determine which machine to use.   I like the little watchmakers lathes for polishing pivots and such, but for machining parts I always step up to the larger lathes.   I have crosslides for the watchmakers lathes, but they do not compare to the convenience of the  Sherline lathe.   Forget threading on a watchmakers lathe.  I have two Sherline lathes so I can leave one set up for threading and one for machining.  Accessories for the watchmakers lathes are expensive and well used.  New accessories for the Taig lathe are quite reasonable, and are also reasonable for the Sherline.


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## ACHiPo (Jan 19, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Thanks Evan, I didn't know you were interested in watches/clocks. I've loved antique "grandfather" clocks and clockwork devices since I was a small child. I have bought a couple of books just to see what I'm looking at.
> 
> I'm not ready to dive in just yet, and when I do start my first project I'm realistically hoping for Timex knockoff, not Rolex.


Aaron,
I have some good “starter” pocket watches when/if you’re interested.  i started on pocket watches as they’re bigger and cheaper than wristwatches.


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## mikey (Jan 19, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Sherline does sell a T-rest fixture to use with gravers,  but that requires removing the saddle and cross slide and then mounting the T rest which could be a nuisance if just for one part as well as time consuming.



Aaron, the T-rest sold by Sherline is a reproduction of the one designed by WR Smith, a master Horologist. It simply slips onto the ways of the lathe and locks in place with a lever. It only takes a few seconds to mount. You just need to move the cross slide out of the way and you can attach the rest. I made one from plans I got directly from Mr. Smith. He is now deceased but I think you might still be able to find the plans at his site or from the Home Shop Machinist magazine where it originally appeared. If all that fails, PM me. 

Almost everything that comes off my Sherline is kissed with a graver. They are some of the most used tools in my shop and I would encourage you guys to try them.


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## Aaron_W (Jan 20, 2020)

ACHiPo said:


> Aaron,
> I have some good “starter” pocket watches when/if you’re interested.  i started on pocket watches as they’re bigger and cheaper than wristwatches.



Thanks, I know almost nothing about vintage clocks and watches. This is one of those things where one thing leads to another, I bought some machining books on ebay, then I get this suggestion for a book on watchmakers lathes, end up watching some youtube videos... 

I really want to get my shop back together, finish the little steam engine I started (cough) 2 years ago, but I will definitely have some questions for you. I was thinking more the clock end of things but a pocket watch would be a neat project so I'd like to see what you have done and what you can suggest.   




mikey said:


> Aaron, the T-rest sold by Sherline is a reproduction of the one designed by WR Smith, a master Horologist. It simply slips onto the ways of the lathe and locks in place with a lever. It only takes a few seconds to mount. You just need to move the cross slide out of the way and you can attach the rest. I made one from plans I got directly from Mr. Smith. He is now deceased but I think you might still be able to find the plans at his site or from the Home Shop Machinist magazine where it originally appeared. If all that fails, PM me.
> 
> Almost everything that comes off my Sherline is kissed with a graver. They are some of the most used tools in my shop and I would encourage you guys to try them.



I thought you made your own. I've also had a look at WR Smith's site. 
I've followed some of your posts on gravers, that was already on my radar for other things I do that could benefit from that.


So many things I want to do, and so many distractions.


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## Dell (Jan 20, 2020)

Hi all
I am in the UK and over here the go to lathe for clockmaker  is either the Cowells 90ME or the 90CW I am into torsion clocks I have just purchased a 90ME very expensive but as they say you get what you pay for.


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## brino (Aug 12, 2020)

Dell said:


> have just purchased a 90ME very expensive but as they say you get what you pay for.



I'd like to see some pictures of that lathe, if you get the chance!
Thanks,
-brino


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## ACHiPo (Aug 12, 2020)

Brino,
Here's a video of the Cowells 90ME...





Evan


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## ACHiPo (Aug 12, 2020)

...and here's a link to the Cowell's site.  Base 90ME is 3k GBP, so about $3500.


			Cowells Small Machine Tools - tools to model engineers, clockmakers and professional engineers


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## pontiac428 (Aug 12, 2020)

I've heard a lot of love for Schaublin and Rivett from the watchmakers.  I've seen several Schaublins and one clean Rivett on Craigslist this year.  I have to avoid fine detail work due to my frayed nerves, but I'd love to see some feinwerk up on this site!  

If you want to listen to some discussion on watchmaking size equipment, give the Home Shop Machinist Podcast a whirl.  Stefan Goetteswinter is a frequent guest on their show.


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## chips&more (Aug 12, 2020)

Micro machining is in a different world and can only be said as similar to the conventional machinist trade. If you want to start micro machining …FINESSE… is probably most important. Then the type of machines you have and the knowledge you have to operate them. A basic watchmaker lathe is one price. But the needed accessories will be the kicker. And I know I’m not on the same page as some, SORRY. But a Unimat, Sherline and the like are OK for some small parts but for the serious micro machining I would go with something more refined.


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## mikey (Aug 12, 2020)

There are quite a large number of Sherline users that would disagree with you on this. Heck, I disagree with you. Ever heard of the late WR Smith, the horologist? He used Sherline tools exclusively. Go to the Sherline Workshop and look at the number of watch makers and model makers who have projects on display. In the realm of micro-machining, it is largely the tools and the ability to see what you're doing that make the difference between what is possible and what is not.


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## chips&more (Aug 13, 2020)

Mike, you can disagree and you can pound on the drums. If anyone thinks a constructed anodized aluminum with plastic gibs machine is the best micro machine on the market, then so be it...Dave


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## Aaron_W (Aug 13, 2020)

chips&more said:


> Mike, you can disagree and you can pound on the drums. If anyone thinks a constructed anodized aluminum with plastic gibs machine is the best micro machine on the market, then so be it...Dave



Surely a Levin is better, but $12,000 vs $600 it better be.


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## Forty Niner (Aug 13, 2020)

I have a Levin watchmakers lathe, with crossslide, collet holding tailstock, and several chucks.   I am thinking to sell it.  It is a good little watchmakers lathe but I seldom use it.  It is no more accurate and far less capable than the Sherline lathe I use most of the time.


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## mikey (Aug 13, 2020)

chips&more said:


> Mike, you can disagree and you can pound on the drums. If anyone thinks a constructed anodized aluminum with plastic gibs machine is the best micro machine on the market, then so be it...Dave



I know you have a Levin and a Sherline isn't even in the same league in terms of build quality. If you had just said the best micro-lathe made is a Swiss-made Levin (and left Emco and Sherline out of it) then you would have had no argument from me. 

My response was elicited because you chose to comment on the capabilities of lathes that I suspect you have never used or even seen, and this is not the first time you've done this; it's a recurring theme with you. On the other hand, a lot of machinists think the same way (with the same absence of experience upon which to base comments), which is why I usually try to step up and correct them.

Before he passed away, I had the honor of communicating with WR Smith. He was an extremely highly regarded horologist that I happened to learn a lot from and a gentleman I came to admire. Much of the work he did as a Master Clockmaker and Master Watchmaker were done on Sherline machines. I guess he didn't realize they were junk or that they couldn't micro-machine parts.


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## chips&more (Aug 15, 2020)

mikey said:


> I know you have a Levin and a Sherline isn't even in the same league in terms of build quality. If you had just said the best micro-lathe made is a Swiss-made Levin (and left Emco and Sherline out of it) then you would have had no argument from me.
> 
> My response was elicited because you chose to comment on the capabilities of lathes that I suspect you have never used or even seen, and this is not the first time you've done this; it's a recurring theme with you. On the other hand, a lot of machinists think the same way (with the same absence of experience upon which to base comments), which is why I usually try to step up and correct them.
> 
> Before he passed away, I had the honor of communicating with WR Smith. He was an extremely highly regarded horologist that I happened to learn a lot from and a gentleman I came to admire. Much of the work he did as a Master Clockmaker and Master Watchmaker were done on Sherline machines. I guess he didn't realize they were junk or that they couldn't micro-machine parts.


Sorry again Mike, please do not second guess my inventory or my many many decades of micro machining experience. Your comments about my background and what I have are totally inaccurate…Dave


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## chips&more (Aug 15, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Surely a Levin is better, but $12,000 vs $600 it better be.


I would not pay that (new) Levin price either. Where did that example come from? I ask, because it’s not really comparing apples to apples. The Sherline has a motor for that price. The Levin does not. The price is more if you want a motor & controller with the lathe.


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## mikey (Aug 15, 2020)

chips&more said:


> Sorry again Mike, please do not second guess my inventory or my many many decades of micro machining experience. Your comments about my background and what I have are totally inaccurate…Dave



Okay, Dave, I'll just end my comments with this. Your condescension regarding Sherline machines is well known, is getting really old and does not belong here. Your opinions, your experiences and your expertise are more than welcome but putting another brand or type of machine down, no, that is not going to fly. 

Please stop.


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## pacifica (Feb 19, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> I don't know if we have any watchmaker / clockmakers on the forum, but I have a question if we do.
> 
> I'm curious about vintage watchmakers lathes. I recently got a book on small lathes and the various watchmakers lathes are covered in some detail, but the book was originally published in the 1950s when there were not many small lathes suitable for watchmaking other than these watchmakers lathes.
> 
> ...


You might find this site informative:  https://www.historictimekeepers.com/tools_of_the_trade.htm .


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## Aaron_W (Feb 19, 2021)

pacifica said:


> You might find this site informative:  https://www.historictimekeepers.com/tools_of_the_trade.htm .



Thank you, since I posted this I've read a couple of books and watched a lot of watch/ clock making videos but I haven't run across this particular site. 

I find it interesting the number of different machines as well as the variety in brands used in shops used for business or a really dedicated hobbyist. In this last one you see a variety of high precision Swiss and German machines, but also a small Sherline mill and what looks like a different brand of the small knee mill sold by Grizzly and Harbor Freight. 
In a commercial shop I can see the utility of having multiple watchmakers lathes set up for specific processes. They are small and not having to change set ups would save time.


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## pacifica (Feb 19, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> Thank you, since I posted this I've read a couple of books and watched a lot of watch/ clock making videos but I haven't run across this particular site.
> 
> I find it interesting the number of different machines as well as the variety in brands used in shops used for business or a really dedicated hobbyist. In this last one you see a variety of high precision Swiss and German machines, but also a small Sherline mill and what looks like a different brand of the small knee mill sold by Grizzly and Harbor Freight.
> In a commercial shop I can see the utility of having multiple watchmakers lathes set up for specific processes. They are small and not having to change set ups would save time.


I find it interesting that he has a stereo microscope at almost every work station. ' What we see depends mainly on  what we look for'


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## Dell (Feb 19, 2021)

I have a Derbyshire Magnus 10mm lathe and I use it to make screws, nuts , finials for the clocks I restore as a hobby because most clocks I buy have bits missing mainly torsion clocks but I also have a few French clocks, English & German Westminster chime clocks about 30 clocks in all.
Dell


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## Arnoldskynet (Mar 27, 2021)

Any good Youtube videos for newbies ?


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## Dell (Mar 27, 2021)

Have a look for clock repairs there’s lots of them.


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