# B&S indicator problems



## Mill Lee farm (Aug 16, 2022)

So I made a batch ebay purchase which included a pair of older but decent looking Brown & Sharpe 7026 test indicators .0001”
They sweetened the deal so I jumped on it.

They would be my finest resolution indicators…. If they moved…

The points seem locked. The one won’t move (afraid to use too much force) and the other seems to slip on the arm so you can reposition the point but neither of the mechanism or dials move. 

What am I missing here? Did I just buy 2 identical broken indicators? (My thought) or is there secret tribal knowledge I’m missing?

If so, someone stop me before my last ditch effort at dunking them in solvent (suggestions? I’m worried about the face paint…)


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## mmcmdl (Aug 17, 2022)

Mineral spirits may help them .


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## graham-xrf (Aug 17, 2022)

Don't be afraid to (carefully) open them, and find out what has given them a problem.
There are lots of videos on YouTube showing exactly what you can do.

I have taken apart and fixed a John Bull 1/10ths indicator, and I have another to yet to do, plus a few others that sort of work, but could do with a cleanup inside.  It's true that one has to get used to some of the basic ways of handling these tiny machines, but you don't have to be anything near watchmaker ability to get it right. For me, it was a problem beyond the usual sticking dial caused by dried out or incorrect oils, but even if it is seized up, or has a broken return spring, one can get to it.

I did have to get a small bottle of horology-type oil from eBay.

Start with Quinn Dunki (Blondihacks) --> _Repairing Dial Indicators - Diagnosing, Fixing, and How They Work!_





There are others --> _Repairing a sticky dial indicator - Lazy Watchsmith_
and                     --> _DM Engineering - Dial Indicator Repair - Mitutoyo_
and                     --> _How I Fixed My Damaged Shars Dial Indicator_
and                    --> _Repairing A Dial Test Indicator - Machining with Joe_

There are more you will see in the links.

[Edit: When it comes to cleaning solvents, avoid acetone anywhere near the dial, or plastic parts. IsoPropyl alcohol is generally pretty safe. Methylated spirits which is a mix of IPA, ethanol, and up to 4% methanol, plus some water with deliberate stinky stuff, also seems not to harm anything, but smells yuk.]


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 17, 2022)

Thanks guys! especially for all the great links. I'm sure I could have found them after searching but it's definitely lazier easier when others spoon feed you the links! 

The big thing is some reassurance that the problem isn't operator stupidity/missing the secret hidden locking mechanism! (which was definitely a posibility!)

I'll learn myself with some youtube and dive in. I don't think these are particually high end B&S as they don't say 'Swiss made' and some google-fu failed to reveal _anything_ about model 7026. 
Don't think there's much at stake here....


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## Doug Gray (Aug 17, 2022)

By the look of the slots in the screws , your not the first to venture in.


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 17, 2022)

@Doug Gray - I was thinking the same thing... 
We'll see what horror show awaits on the inside!?!

So... is it bad that I'm kind of looking forward to digging into this?


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## Doug Gray (Aug 17, 2022)

It's a great thing .. dig and share!


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 30, 2022)

Single long screw on the right side that the arm pivots on


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 30, 2022)

I believe it’s just gummed up and needs a good cleaning 


View attachment trim.E07B5290-0732-4CBE-82C7-43614C64B63D.MOV

View attachment trim.C3B1A67B-188F-496E-8E6D-7C1D163FAF04.MOV


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 30, 2022)

Gunk on the case…


View attachment trim.FACD9F9C-0965-4530-B5FF-AB4D96CB398D.MOV


And look at the backlash?!?
Am I wrong in thinking this is an excessive amount of play on that pivot???

<edit> the 2nd DTI was exactly the same and after reassembly there doesn't seem to be a backlash issue. Guess it's supposed to be that loose!

View attachment trim.5A6D060F-EF4D-43C8-AAD6-75312D1E16D9.MOV


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 30, 2022)

View attachment trim.0A12A898-C8B5-4B24-89A7-2D64E3423A4B.MOV


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 30, 2022)

SUCCESS!!!
so I figured it couldn’t hurt to put a touch of Tri-Flo on the pivot points etc…




View attachment trim.7C29B3FC-EF00-46F1-BD31-6F4DC7258FEF.MOV


Better but still not great
Then I drowned it figuring it couldn’t hurt and I can clean it off if necessary

After a bunch ove manipulating it started to free up!
After more manipulation it’s pretty decent!
Not the smoothest, but maybe it’ll loosen up after sitting in Tri-Flo and use…
Hey! They both work now!


View attachment trim.685FB1E7-DBB2-490B-AE19-39E5BC2B39A7.MOV


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## Bone Head (Aug 31, 2022)

I use to work in metrology.  What I would run into was the user (in spite of being lectured otherwise) was drowning the instrument in WD-40.  When it dries it makes moving parts stick.
My go-to method was a spray bottle with denatured alcohol.  Remove the cover plate, spray, the guts, spray again.  Once the offending substance was dissolved and rinsed out normal operation was restored.  Tri-Flow might not gum it up; I never ran into that stuff.
Same problem with drop indicators.  guys would oil them.  Usually with a bottle of motor oil from Family Dollar.  30 wt. does not help.  They're designed to work properly dry.


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## KyleG (Aug 31, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> IsoPropyl alcohol is generally pretty safe.


A word of caution - I recently accidentally stripped all the markings off the dial of a Starret tenths indicator with isopropyl 

Lesson learned. Test any liquid in a small spot before you use it on the dial.


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 31, 2022)

Yes, I believe the problem here was some type of fluid (that maybe started as a lubricant?) had dried and varnished everywhere leading to the sticking. I know drowning it in more lubricant isn't reccomended, I've just had pretty good luck with Tri-Flow cutting old stuff and providing fresh lubrication so I thought I'd try it.

The main reason is that the dial gearing was the main offender and I don't know how to open it up.
1st problem is the two mounting screws. Easy enough to get to once the guts are out (as you can see in the videos) but I can't get to them straight on with the jewlers screwdriver. The opposite housing wall makes the screwdriver go in at an uncomfortable angle.




I did get one loose but was chewing the screw slot in the process. Installation is always harder than disassembly so I decided to pause.

Would someone have used a microscopic ratchet with a flat blade on it to install these? can anyone reccomend a tool idea to get in there straight on the screws?

2nd problem is getting the bezel off... it appears to be held on with a snap ring but I can't seem to get it out. Should the crystal pop out when levered with a screwdriver? I'm afraid to try that.




If the Tri-Flow causes problems later I'll have to try to get to the dial gearing...
I'm definitely not cool with soaking the painted dail face in alcohol or solvent....


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## aliva (Aug 31, 2022)

The  ring looks similar to whats called a spiral snap ring. Lift the end with the large flat section up and out of the grooved edge, then gentely pull it out of the grove. Install in reverse order.


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## extropic (Aug 31, 2022)

Good job at getting into the guts of the thing.

Next comment: Your first application of Tri-Flo on the pinion dispensed enough liquid to properly lube about 2 dozen DTIs. You need a proper watch oiler. Dip the tip in the fluid then touch to the pivot. I don't know the long term characteristics of Tri-flo. What lubricant do watchmakers use?





__





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Regarding the retaining clip: use a small screwdriver against the beveled end to move it toward the center of the bezel. Concurrently, lever the beveled end up (toward the camera) and rotate the bezel clockwise under the retaining clip. Continue until the retaining clip is removed.

Regarding the special screwdriver: You will probably have to make something to get it done. Because of the limited swing arc available, you will need at least 2 screwdrivers with the blades at 90° to each other, relative to the handle(s). Conceptual example below is defective due to modern manufacturing loss of knowledge.



			https://www.amazon.com/I-MART-Offset-Screwdriver-Phillips-Driver/dp/B07HDJGV92/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2U2C4DKW52P4T&keywords=proto+right+angled+screwdriver&qid=1661981578&s=hi&sprefix=proto+right+angled+screwdriver%2Ctools%2C178&sr=1-2
		


Had to go to eBay vintage tools to find better conceptual examples.









						VINTAGE MACHINING TOOLS MACHINIST OFF-SET RIGHT ANGLE SCREWDRIVERS 3x  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for  VINTAGE MACHINING TOOLS MACHINIST OFF-SET RIGHT ANGLE SCREWDRIVERS 3x at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



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Also, You have set the pointer to be on Zero when the indicator is at rest. Although pleasing to aesthetics, it's not desirable for practical use. Take a look at pictures of other (factory new) DTI and you will see that the hand points at about 4:30 (standard clock face) at rest. This is so the stylus is preloaded against the workpiece when the hand points at Zero. What you want is for the hand to be on Zero when the indicator is at 50% of it's total travel, not at rest.

If I was trying to clean the indicator, with the bezel/crystal in place, I think I would give the pinion and inner case a spritz of aerosol Brake Parts or Carburetor Cleaner. What I mean by spritz is get it moist, Don't try to flush it. Work the pinion while it's wet and repeat as necessary. My thinking is that those cleaners seem to cut varnished oils well. By minimizing the amount of cleaner present, I'm hoping that it will wick up into the pinion bearing journals, but not up onto the face. YMMV


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 31, 2022)

extropic said:


> Next comment: Your first application of Tri-Flo on the pinion dispensed enough liquid to properly lube about 2 dozen DTIs. You need a proper watch oiler. Dip the tip in the fluid then touch to the pivot. I don't know the long term characteristics of Tri-flo. What lubricant do watchmakers use?


With some research into precision instrument oil, it seemed light oil was preferred. Starrett doesn’t advertise what their ingredients are, but consensus seemed to be a light oil that Tri-Flow compared to. 
(3 in 1, singer sewing machine oil etc)

And yes… that’s my special order ‘needle’ oiler. 
Small precision amounts 
It’s by far the best of my options but it definitely dumped it on in the video. 
I’m afraid of messing up the paint on the face so I didn’t want to use a solvent or alcohol until I can get the painted face off separate.

If I can get into the face gears I’ll try to clean properly and see if it works well *dry*



extropic said:


> Regarding the special screwdriver: You will probably have to make something to get it done. Because of the limited swing arc available, you will need at least 2 screwdrivers with the blades at 90° to each other, relative to the handle(s).



Hmm…. I have some ‘piano wire’. Heat and bend with MAPP gas, file round ends to sharp points? Heat and quench again for hardness? Thoughts?



extropic said:


> Also, You have set the pointer to be on Zero when the indicator is at rest. Although pleasing to aesthetics, it's not desirable for practical use. Take a look at pictures of other (factory new) DTI and you will see that the hand points at about 4:30 (standard clock face) at rest. This is so the stylus is preloaded against the workpiece when the hand points at Zero. What you want is for the hand to be on Zero when the indicator is at 50% of it's total travel, not at rest.



Ok. Not sure I’m following this. I moved the bezel to align w/ zero for demonstration.  
I now realize I didn’t ’clock’ the needle on reassembly and it ended up “wherever it was!”
Are you talking about where to clock the needle for reassembly?


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## Mill Lee farm (Aug 31, 2022)

>duplicate post<


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## extropic (Aug 31, 2022)

Mill Lee farm said:


> Hmm…. I have some ‘piano wire’. Heat and bend with MAPP gas, file round ends to sharp points? Heat and quench again for hard? *Thoughts?*
> 
> Ok.* Not sure I’m following this*. I moved the bezel to align w/ zero for demonstration.
> I now realize I didn’t ’clock’ the needle on reassembly and it ended up “wherever it was!”
> *Are you talking about where to clock the needle for reassembly?*



Your piano wire might be strong enough without heat treatment. If you can harden and temper, go for it.
Equally important is a very close fit to the screw slot.

Yes, I'm talking about where the needle (hand) should be clocked *at* reassembly. In the last video (24 seconds) in reply #12, when the DTI is at rest, the Zero is shown at approximately the 12 O'clock position. 12 O'clock is a good, common place to locate the Zero. Also shown in video, the hand is right on top of Zero when the DTI is at rest. That is because of the position the hand was pointing when you engaged the the pinion with the sector gear. I believe that because you hadn't removed the bezel and hand yet so the gear engagement was the only variable to determine which way the hand was pointing when the DTI was at rest.

By looking at the referenced video, when you lift the stylus you see the hand travels CW approximately 360°+180°+10° = 550° total travel. When you depress the stylus you see the hand travel CCW approximately 360°+180°+20° = 560° total travel. See the picture in the ad below.



			https://www.amazon.com/Brown-Sharpe-Bestest-Indicator-M1-4x0-3/dp/B0037QFFCM?th=1
		


If you remove the hand from the stem, when you reinstall it (after the innards are reassembled), have it pointing at about the 4:30 O'clock position at rest. That way you don't have to fiddle with clocking the pinion on the sector gear to set the hand orientation.


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