# HF upped my opinion today



## SonofHarold - Metal Carver (Mar 5, 2019)

Sure I buy certian things at the local HF, but I have generally been pretty critical of most of there hand tools and such as not being worth bringing home. ( and have had some in the past to prove that) Today I needed a 18mm open end wrench probably for a  one item use so with the 20% off coupon in hand went looking. They only had one set with a 18mm combo wrench in it, and it was one, for HF, one of the more pricey plated, long reach metric sets running from like a 12 to a 33mm. Well with the 20% off making it only about $31 -I bought em. I dont't have alot of need for larger size metrics but thought it might be good to have them on hand. (the local Lowes did not even have a 18mm in the store and the local ACE hardware wanted over $35 for a single wrench. The wrench set at HR was of better quality than I expected, I measured out several of them because my experinece has been they are not always sized well, the ones I measured checked out good + about 0.2 mm on the smaller sizes and + 0.3 to 0.4 mm for some of the larger sizes. The wrench I needed of course did the job and actually felt pretty decent in my hand, nothing with a ton of torque so did not get to test them out and see that the spanners did not spread when realy loaded which would be the real test but they seemed at least decent for the price. Plus got my free magnetic LED light which I use them all the time and for free there great. managed to get out without buying anything else too.


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## markba633csi (Mar 5, 2019)

The quality there does seem to improve steadily, year by year. I bought a 1 ton engine hoist for 99$ on sale and aside from a slightly rough caster (which just needed a bit of solvent cleaning and some oiling) works flawlessly, nice looking welds too. 
mark


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 5, 2019)

I actually bought quite a few things from HF that I'm very well pleased with.   Especially considering the price is right. 

I have four of their cheapest 4-1/2" angle grinders.  I was so pleased with the first one I bought three more just so I don't need to keep changing back and forth between the wire brushes and grinding wheels.   All four of them work great.  They even come with an extra set of motor brushes.   I haven't had them long enough yet to worry about that.  But I thought it was a nice touch.   At $9.99 a grinder they don't need to last a lifetime.   Besides, they won't need to last very much longer to make it to the end of my lifetime.  

I also bought two of their 1/2" fixed base routers.   Fantastic routers as far as I'm concerned.   Especially when they are only about 1/3 the price of many others.   They too came with an extra set of motor brushes.  Well see if they last long enough to need them. 

Finally, my big THRILL with HF.

I needed to change a bunch of full-size 15" Ford pick-up truck tires.   I had about 12 tires I needed to change and some of them had been on the rims for a very long time.  So instead of trying to do this with my homemade "tire changer" which was really crude and hard to use I decided to go to HF and buy their $39 tire changer.   I really didn't expect much.  In fact, I was suspecting that I might actually be throwing $40 away on a piece of junk that isn't even usable. 

But surprise surprise!    I built a nice little deck to bolt it down to (_made from heave oak planks_) and proceeded to start changing tires with it.   To my utter shock and amazement the thing worked really well and was quite sturdy.   I removed and replaced all 12 wheels in no time.   It made the tire changing job a piece of cake.   It was worth the $40 just for that job.   And now I have it for all future tire changes.   It's still like brand new.  So that was $40 well spent.   I'm truly surprised that it was that good at that price.   

I have quite a few other tools from harbor freight that I'm quite please with as well.  In fact, I never actually got anything from HF that I wasn't happy with. 

Oh, I almost forgot!  

I bought their sawmill too!!!





I've heard people who love it and people who hate it.  I'm among those who love it.   It works like a Swiss Watch for me.   It cuts beautiful straight lumber.   No complaints here. 

In fact, my cousin has a $15,000 Woodmizer which I used to run all the time.    This HF mill is way simpler and doesn't have quite the capacity.   But it was also only $2000.     Is the Woodmizer worth $13,000 more?  Not for my purposes.     This little $2000 sawmill is just perfect for my needs.

By the way many of the complaints I've seen about this HF sawmill appear to me to be nothing more than poor set-up or operation by the people who were complaining about it.    It does require assembly, and if a person doesn't know how to assemble a precision machine they can create a disaster.   You need to take some time to set it up properly on a perfectly level and sturdy foundation.  Set it up poorly on uneven ground and of course it's going to be a nightmare.   Mine cuts perfectly straight lumber with no issues. 

It's basically just a bandsaw on wheels.   And you've got to make sure the rails the bandsaw is riding on are straight, true and level.  Failure to set that up with precision and it will never cut straight, and might even derail in the middle of a cut. 

It's true that when you buy a Woodmizer it's already been set up properly.  But still, is it worth $13,000 to have someone else set up the mill?

I'd rather keep the $13,000 and set up the mill myself.


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## markba633csi (Mar 6, 2019)

Wow I didn't know they sold a sawmill.  Cool.  Those boards look pretty straight to me. I'm guessing the Woodmizer has power feed.
Be interesting to try to add that to the HF, maybe using a 12 volt winch you could run off your truck battery, then get stuck in the woods with a dead battery LOL (you'd want to bring a spare)
Good tips about the tire changer too.


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 6, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Wow I didn't know they sold a sawmill.  Cool.  Those boards look pretty straight to me. I'm guessing the Woodmizer has power feed.
> Be interesting to try to add that to the HF, maybe using a 12 volt winch you could run off your truck battery, then get stuck in the woods with a dead battery LOL (you'd want to bring a spare)
> Good tips about the tire changer too.



I was actually thinking about that myself when I first bought it.   But when I started using it I found that it pushed through the logs so effortlessly having power feed would really be an unnecessary overkill.   It wouldn't be worth the trouble installing it.   Plus after every cut you'd need to let the winch back out again to return to the beginning of the log.  As it is now you just walk it back effortlessly.   Power feed is simply a luxury that  is truly unnecessary. 

One place I have though about installing a power feed is on the winch that raises and lowers the blade assembly.   But I've found that this isn't even really needed.   The most cranking I need to do is when I'm done cutting a long and need to crank back to the top to start a new long.  Again, it's not all that hard to do.   When lowering the mill head for each long it basically just a couple cranks, and since you're lowering the head instead of lifting it is really easy to crank. 

The other thing my cousin's Woodmizer has is a motorized blade guide adjuster so you can move the right-hand blade guide in and out with the push of a button.   This HF mill doesn't have a movable right-hand blade guide.    So you can't move the blade guide closer to the log as the boards get more narrow.   But I haven't noticed any problem with this at all.   The blade seems to cut nice and straight no matter what size lumber I'm cutting. 

Caveat, it cuts' Spruce as wavy as a stormy sea.   For some reason Spruce just doesn't want to cut flat.  However, my cousin has this same problem cutting Spruce on  his Woodmizer too.  So this must just be a charcteristic of how Spruce cuts. 

A couple more things I should mention about the sawmill:

It doesn't have live roller guides for the blades.  The Blade guides are just dead blocks.  Well, it does have a roller bearing behind the blade, but not roller guides top and bottom.   In the beginning I was thinking of changing that,  But thus far I haven't had a problem with the dead blocks.   I keep an eye on them and keep them well cleaned and oiled.   I haven't had to touch them since I bought it.  I've had it for about 3 years now.   So they seem to work ok. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the HF mill will only cut a log a little over 9 feet long maximum.   I cut 8' - 6" long lumber almost exclusively.    However, since the bed is just 4" angle iron the bed can actually be extended as long as  you like.   So I might extend the bed to 16' some day.   It would just be a matter of making the extension.  Unfortunately they don't sell extension rails for it.   Although you could probably buy the original rails as replacement parts.  I never looked into that.   If you did that you would make it twice a long which would actually extend the cuttingly length another 9 feet plus about 4 more feet that is taken up by the mill on the original tracks.    So you'd be able to cut logs up to 22 feet long at that point.   Not sure why anyone would want such long lumber, but there you go. 

If  you wanted to make this mill portable just set it up on a flat bed trailer and there you go.  

You could probably pick up a flat bed trailer for about $2000 and you've have a fully portable sawmill for about $4000.

*Important Disclaimer*: 

Everything I've said about the HF mill makes sense to a hobbyist who's going to use this mill to make personal lumber.   If a person is planning on going into business towing this mill around on a trailer cutting lumber commercially for a living, they may well be better off paying the $13000 extra to buy the Woodmizer.   It's definitely going to be more durable, and easier to use running it 8 hours a day trying to make money. 

I'm not saying that the HF sawmill is a direct replacement for a Woodmizer.    But for a hobbyist, or homeowner who wants to save $13,000 and still be able to make decent usable lumber I strongly recommend it. 

I have a woodworking business.  I also have a lot of really nice trees on my property.   So for me it's paid for itself already many times over.   I have cut more Oak, Cherry, Maple, and Pine lumber than I could ever buy for $2000.   

So whether or not it's worth it to someone can indeed depend on what they plan on using it for.   If you buy a HF sawmill and think you are going to tow it around on a trailer as a full-time sawmill business, you may very well be disappointed.   So intended use is indeed a consideration.   Although it could certainly be used for the purpose in a pinch.   But let's face it, you're going to need to be more mindful of it as it's not going to be as rugged and heavy-duty as a Woodmizer.

I'd go for the Woodmizer if I was starting a sawmill business.   Which is what my cousin does.  He makes his living cutting lumber on location with his Woodmizer.   My HF sawmill sits in my backyard hoping that I'll need to cut up a log once in a while just so it can be used and not be so lonely.  

But think of what a waste it would have been for me to have bought a Woodemizer just to let sit in my backyard most of the time!

But yeah, I don't think you can find a less expensive sawmill than the HF sawmill.   If you buy one, take great care in setting it up originally.  If you take the time to get it on a solid founation that is true and level, it will serve  you well.    It may even shift on you due to sinking of your foundation.  So you need to keep an eye out for that.  I always shim it up in the spring at various places to ensure that it's perfectly flat and level.   That's just a matter of sliding a few shims under the tracks where it may have shifted over the winter,    If you treat it like a precision machine it will act like one.


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## Buffalo21 (Mar 6, 2019)

I have made numerous Harbor Freight purchases, my luck has been excellent, but I do try to follow 2 simple rules

1 - buy nothing with an electrical cord
2 - buy nothing that uses batteries

I have broken these rules a couple of times, I own the long since discontinued tool bit grinders (works great) and a 20” floor standing drill press, but I did install a reversible Dayton (Graingers) electric motor.


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## markba633csi (Mar 6, 2019)

Robo: We must think alike, right after I sent the post I was thinking the power feed might be over kill.  Then I was ruminating about raising and lowering and how easy/hard it must be. 
Interesting about the spruce- is it hard like oak?
mark


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 6, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Robo: We must think alike, right after I sent the post I was thinking the power feed might be over kill.  Then I was ruminating about raising and lowering and how easy/hard it must be.
> Interesting about the spruce- is it hard like oak?
> mark



Actually spruce is a soft wood.  Not sure why it's so hard to cut without getting waves.   I've tried cutting it with extremely slow feed speed.   That seems to help a little but doesn't eliminate it entirely.  I also tried over tightening the blade, but that didn't help either.   Also, as I say, my cousin has the same problem with the Woodmizer and spruce so even having adjustable blade guides doesn't help.     If you cut it at a slow feed rate it isn't real bad.  But still not perfectly flat.   When I cut Oak, Cheery, Maple or White Pine they all cut extremely flat with no problem.  So I have no clue what's up with the spruce.   

I mean, you can cut  usable lumber.   It just that you'll need to run it through a planer if you want it to be super flat.   I don't have a lot of spruce but I was going to make some violins and I got some spruce from a tree my neighbor wanted removed.  I actually got paid for removing the tree.  

I got some nice spruce from the tree.  I'll be able to use it,   But it did cut wavy.    Just can't seem to avoid it.   I wonder if they make special blades for cutting spruce?  I also wonder if anyone else has this problem with cutting spruce?  I know my cousin does.  Could it be unique to the spruce trees in our area?  I don't know.


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## Tanshanomi (Mar 6, 2019)

Yeah, I've been stung by a couple of clinkers from them, but I have had more good luck with HF than bad. I just recently stripped the screw in my HF vice, but it's had constant use for at least 15 years. I have one of their benchtop 1" belt sanders that I use almost daily for dressing parts — if it failed tomorrow, I'd go right out and get another one; I've long since gotten my $50 purchase price back out of this one. I also have one of their cheap heat guns and one of their "medium duty" paddle switch angle grinders, but honestly I don't use either of them enough to say whether they've held up well or not. They haven't gotten broken sitting in my toolbox drawer, so that's something, right?

I just jumped in the HF deep end and bought a Vulcan ProTIG 165 for $579 with a coupon. There was nothing else under $800 that had a variable pedal, and the vast majority of reviews online say that their Vulcan line of welders are a definite step up, and function really well for hobbyist use. I haven't had a chance to hook it up and melt metal yet.


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## mcostello (Mar 6, 2019)

Maybe HF stuff is not so bad after all, I have around 120ish flashlights. Bought a quill DRO from another Eastern seller and this warranty/return card was included. Does not give much reassurance about the quality when They include a return label.


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## alloy (Mar 8, 2019)

Buffalo21 said:


> I have made numerous Harbor Freight purchases, my luck has been excellent, but I do try to follow 2 simple rules
> 
> 1 - buy nothing with an electrical cord
> 2 - buy nothing that uses batteries



I totally agree with what you say. A few years ago I bought a Jet lathe with no motor.  I picked up one from HF,  machined up some nice mounting brackets and Jim Dawson helped me wire it all up.  

First motor had a dead short,  second one vibrated so badly you could grab the lathe and move it around.  When I took the second one back they wouldn't refund my money,  gave me a credit.  I called the district manager and in short order the store manager called and asked me to come down and get my money along with a $20 gift certificate. 

I took them back,  bought a used motor off a guy that was converting his to CNC and it's worked ever since. 

But on the other hand,  I bought a tool cart today from HF and am totally surprised at the quality and how heavily it's built.  I even posted a thread about it here.


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## jwmay (Mar 8, 2019)

Careful guys. If they start seeing that we like their stuff, the prices will triple.

It’s all junk! They ought to pay us to haul it out of there for them!  Worst tools ever!   See? Like that.


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 8, 2019)

To be honest I don't know how they do it.   The tire changer I bought for $39 is an extremely simple design.  It would be fairly easy to build one myself.  The problem is that I would easily spend more than $39 just to buy the steel to built it.   Then I'd need to cut all that steel up and weld it all together and paint it.   I can easily see the parts bill becoming $40 plus.    There's also a nice 1" thick acme lead screw and nut on the top that screws down to hold the tire in place when you change it.   I just can't see building this for under $40 in parts.   Unless I'm working with free salvaged junk steel.   Even then I wouldn't want to build one and sell it for $40.   It wouldn't be worth my labor.

Same thing for their sawmill.   It's an extremely simple design.   Something a person could build from scratch with simple tools.   Just the same, I'll bet you'd have $2000 plus in parts if you were buying new steel and a new motor to put on it.   I don't believe in could build one for less than $2000 using new materials.   Might be able to beat that price using old free steel from say an old piece of farm equipment.   But if you had to buy the steel and motor new I don't see how you could obtain the  parts for much less than $2000.

I don't know how they do it.   But I'm glad they do.  Saved me a lot of work trying to build my own from scratch.   And that was on the table at the beginning.    After I found the HF sawmill I thought to myself, "_You'd be crazing trying to build one from scratch when you can just order this one instead_".    After all, I wanted to spend the summer cutting logs, not building a sawmill.  

Yep, I don't know how they do it.  I probably supported an industry that depends on slave labor?    I hope not.   Hopefully these were built with robots.   They must have been to be sold at these prices.   And the steel they use must be dirt cheap too.


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## coherent (Mar 10, 2019)

Robo_Pi said:


> I bought their sawmill too!!!
> 
> View attachment 289606



I've been on the fence about getting one of these sawmills myself. I wish I hadn't seen your post because it sparked my interest again and got me reading everything I could find on the portable sawmills.  So, long story short I ordered a model sold by Norwood. I would have went with HF but really wanted something with a little more width capability for live edge slabs as well as basic lumber. Still awaiting shipment notification and delivery but these saws look like a lot of fun., much less the practical side. I'll post a photo on the forum once I get it  up and running. Now I just gotta track down some logs! Anyone have a dead or down tree they want removed?


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 10, 2019)

Oh dear!  Me bad.  I'm instingating other people to go out and buy a sawmill.    Oh well, the damage is done now.  I hope you enjoy your Norwood. 

And yes, I too was considering other mills for the larger diameter capacity.   But I ended up settling on the HF because my budget simply wouldn't allow me to go any bigger.   The Norwood will probably be a better machine overall anyway.   I do believe the HF is the rock bottom in sawmills.  I think  you'd be really hard-pressed to find one cheaper.   But it does work. 

I have 10 acres all wooded land.  So I have more logs than I can cut.  So  sawmill makes perfect sense for me.   Do you have a trailer to haul logs home on?   You're best bet is to put out advertisements in your area offering to haul away storm damaged trees.   Do this especially right after stormy weather.   In most cases people will be glad to give you the trees for free if you come and cut them up and haul them away.   If you hear on the news that high winds or a tornado was active in your area, get that ad out there.  You'll be sure to get some free trees.   All you need is a chainsaw, a trailer, and a way to get the logs onto the trailer.   Either winch them on, or roll them on from the side if possible. 

Now, if you really want to DROOL look at this home made sawmill.


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## coherent (Mar 12, 2019)

Robo_Pi said:


> Oh dear!  Me bad.  I'm instingating other people to go out and buy a sawmill.    Oh well, the damage is done now.  I hope you enjoy your Norwood.
> 
> And yes, I too was considering other mills for the larger diameter capacity.   But I ended up settling on the HF because my budget simply wouldn't allow me to go any bigger.   The Norwood will probably be a better machine overall anyway.   I do believe the HF is the rock bottom in sawmills.  I think  you'd be really hard-pressed to find one cheaper.   But it does work.
> 
> I have 10 acres all wooded land.  So I have more logs than I can cut.  So  sawmill makes perfect sense for me.   Do you have a trailer to haul logs home on?   You're best bet is to put out advertisements in your area offering to haul away storm damaged trees.   Do this especially right after stormy weather.   In most cases people will be glad to give you the trees for free if you come and cut them up and haul them away.   If you hear on the news that high winds or a tornado was active in your area, get that ad out there.  You'll be sure to get some free trees.   All you need is a chainsaw, a trailer, and a way to get the logs onto the trailer.   Either winch them on, or roll them on from the side if possible.



Yes that's a big bandsaw! There is a market in my area for live edge slabs, but a saw like that can get pretty pricey (beyond my budget) and building one would be a pretty time consuming endeavor.  Yes  I have a flat bed trailer, 3 chainsaws and an F-250... also a compact tractor with a front end loader. It couldn't lift a 30" 14 ft log, but it's capable with smaller stuff and skidding, rolling, pushing or lifting one end of larger logs. LOL, we don't really have a tornado problem in Arizona, but the thunderstorms/winds do knock down trees here like everywhere so I'll keep your suggestions in mind.  Call me weird, and it may be a guy thing or a tool thing, but the sawmills just look like fun!


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## Robo_Pi (Mar 12, 2019)

coherent said:


> Call me weird, and it may be a guy thing or a tool thing, but the sawmills just look like fun!



Keep in mind that this is actually a very large bandsaw, and can be creatively used as one.   You don't need to just cut logs into lumber.   You can actually use this sawmill to make fancy cuts for woodworking projects.   The obvious thing you can do right off the bat is make a V-groove fixture to hold things like a 4x4 or 6x6 etc.   And then cut the corners off those to make octagon columns.   Plus you can use the left over triangular cut-offs to strengthen inside corners of projects.  

You can also take a short log, stand it up vertically, and cut "cookies" off it that have perfectly flat and parallel faces.   Tilt the log and you can cut nice oblong disks to make wall plaques.  

I use it as a bandsaw for making outdoor lawn funiture.    Just thinking of it as a huge bandsaw instead of a sawmill opens up all kinds of creative ideas.


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## 7milesup (Mar 26, 2019)

I own one of their Pro series tool chests.  It is one of the best buys out there.  Roller bearing drawer slides and heavy gauge metal construction.  Walking through a local store the other day I stopped in the tool section and played with one of their Dewalt tool chests.  Total joke for the amount of money.  If you want something better than a HF tool chest, get a Milwaukee one.  They are like the king of value, especially when on sale.


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## Toolmaker51 (Jun 22, 2019)

Robo_Pi said:


> <snipped>
> *Important Disclaimer*:
> Everything I've said about the HF mill makes sense. . .
> <snipped>
> ...



In bold, as if highlighting is an important statement. Applies to most any mechanized equipment, be it a wood mill, metal lathe, surface grinder, miter saw or a DeVlieg JigMil. I literally had employer ridicule my efforts to level a simple knee mill. "Just level the parts"! I guess geometry wasn't his topic or flair.
We were making long machine frame members, symmetrical in all 3 planes. Then I ordered material for outboard supports, which they bought instead.
The chain drive, feed belt and set-up tuning issues disappeared.
Not really; I knew where they went!


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