# Machine shop trade secrets vs. Pocket companion vs. Engineer's black book ??



## stioc (Jun 1, 2019)

Of course I want all of them but which of these three books should I get if I were to get one of them?  

Besides the Machinery Handbook these are the books I currently have and my fav are the bottom two. Right now leaning towards the Machine shop trade secrets as I'm not sure if the pocket companion and black books are similar to each other and similar to the Machinery Handbook?
Also I'm not much of a reader and rarely read any book cover to cover but like to flip through pages and read interesting parts.


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## hman (Jun 1, 2019)

Trade secrets books are great for browsing/grazing.  They're typically a bunch of short articles; you needn't have read the previous one to understand the current one.  I've got a couple books of that type.  You might also want to look at the three volumes of the Machinists' Bedside Reader.  Again, mainly short, stand-alone articles.

The Black Book is more useful as a reference - look there when you need specific information.  It's not really meant to be "read."  Machinery's Handbook is a huge, thick 1000+ page tome.  The Black Book and similar try to contain the "most frequently used" areas of information.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 1, 2019)

I don't have the pocket companion or the black book, so I will just give you my impressions of Machine Shop Trade Secrets.

I classify it with the two Frank Marlow books (Machine Shop Know-How and Machine Shop Essentials): good, usable information from a practitioner, but pretty much in the format of "tips and tricks". It sounds like this sort of book may suit your style of reading; just be aware that it is not going to be a sufficient reference book, nor is it going to be a complete course ala Moltrecht's Machine Shop Practice.


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## Tozguy (Jun 1, 2019)

The MH pocket companion is my choice.


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## stioc (Jun 1, 2019)

Thanks, yes everyone high recommended the MH so I got it but even after a couple of yrs of machining experience I don't enjoy looking things up in it because as someone above said it's huge and it's daunting. Especially in the Internet era tables and charts are much easier to find online and even print.

I know the basics already (turning, facing, boring, threading etc) and just about all the books I have cover those. So, I guess I'm looking for a cookbook or tips and tricks type of a book where I learn the shortcuts or creative ways of holding work pieces etc. i.e. practical things beyond the basics (less theory lol). Sounds like the machine shop practice and the bedside reader are what I want. Which of these two would you guys recommend? I like the former because it has a section on CNC too.

Edit: Oh and I'm also looking at Tom Lipton's "Metalworking: Doing it better"


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## mmcmdl (Jun 2, 2019)

Experience is the key . You can read books forever and end up " book smart " , but the key is to do what works and learn what doesn't work . You'll find order of operations is key . The most educating book I ever had was on Geometric tolerancing and dimensioning . This will teach you what and why things are important and why those order of operations are your friend . This is especially true when it comes to fixtures and workholding . The only reason I ever picked up my MH was for easy access to thread class limits which Greenfield will send you for free .


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## Bill_729 (Jun 2, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> nor is it going to be a complete course ala Moltrecht's Machine Shop Practice.



+1 on this 2 volume set.  Lathe is covered in the first volume; mill is covered in the second.  I'm almost finished with the first volume, and based upon my satisfaction, I have already ordered the second volume.  You can find used copies of either of them for less than $15, delivered.  These are written more like "college level" textbooks compared to the workshop practice series.  If you aren't interested in that sort of "presentation", then maybe these aren't the books for you.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 2, 2019)

stioc said:


> Sounds like the machine shop practice and the bedside reader are what I want. Which of these two would you guys recommend? I like the former because it has a section on CNC too.



I would pass on the bedside reader for now. People charge a lot for it because it is out of print and fairly popular, but it is not exactly information-dense. I found the three volumes to be enjoyable to read, and might do some of the projects, but a lot of the information was either obsolete (e.g. where to buy a specific lubricant or emery cloth) or has become common knowledge.

Machine Shop Practice is worth the price (which, as pointed out, is low) and thorough, but it is a bit dated. The book I wish I had started with is Technology of Machine Tools (the earlier the edition, the cheaper it is), which is basically a textbook for shop class.

Lipton's book is excellent. Of the "tricks of the trade" books, I would probably order them (best to worst): Bulgin, Lipton, Harvey, Marlow. The Marlow ones are neat to have in the shop because of their format, which is Q&A, but the information in them is basically right out of machinery's handbook. The downside of Bulgin's books is they are pricey, and the information is dispersed over something like five books (the "building shop" series and the lathe and mill books).

Recently enjoyed Spitler's _Fundamentals of Tool Design_. Currently waiting for Bradley's _Shaping Machine and Lathe Tools_ to arrive from overseas. In case you couldn't tell, I'm a bit of a reader


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## Bill_729 (Jun 2, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> In case you couldn't tell, I'm a bit of a reader



ThinWoodsman,
Did you ever read "Tool Design", by Donaldson, LeCain and Goold, or do you have an opinion on it?
I almost bought it, bought a different book instead, and added it to my "maybe" list.  

Thanks!
Bill_729


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## jbobb1 (Jun 2, 2019)

mmcmdl said:


> Experience is the key . You can read books forever and end up " book smart " , but the key is to do what works and learn what doesn't work . You'll find order of operations is key .



Exactly!


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## stioc (Jun 2, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> I would pass on the bedside reader for now. People charge a lot for it because it is out of print and fairly popular, but it is not exactly information-dense. I found the three volumes to be enjoyable to read, and might do some of the projects, but a lot of the information was either obsolete (e.g. where to buy a specific lubricant or emery cloth) or has become common knowledge.
> 
> Machine Shop Practice is worth the price (which, as pointed out, is low) and thorough, but it is a bit dated. The book I wish I had started with is Technology of Machine Tools (the earlier the edition, the cheaper it is), which is basically a textbook for shop class.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for the detailed reply on the books. So after my previous post I ordered the Lipton book last night and just got it today (Amazon is awesome, been making me poor since 1999 lol). I haven't started reading it yet but I it seems like just what I was after.

After reading your suggestion previously and @Bill_729 's validation as well I'll add the Moltrech books on my wish list and then possibly the machine shop practice (the second edition since it has a section on CNC). Bulgin's has a set of 3 books it seems and they look interesting too. I wish I didn't invest in some of the books I posted above as they weren't for me.

As for the book smart part, yes I agree 100% but since I don't have any formal training nor a ton of practice time (machining is just one of several hobbies) I do like to read tips&tricks types of books on the days when I'm traveling/relaxing etc so I can pick up useful info from folks who do this for a living.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 2, 2019)

Bill_729 said:


> ThinWoodsman,
> Did you ever read "Tool Design", by Donaldson, LeCain and Goold, or do you have an opinion on it?
> I almost bought it, bought a different book instead, and added it to my "maybe" list.



Saw that when I was looking for the Ian Bradley book, but haven't read it (yet).

Study without practice - useless book learnin'.
Practice without study - apes mimicking other apes.
I know there's the recurring problem of manager types who read about a trade and think they know it, but ultimately machining is a technology. You gotta study and practice both.


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## Choiliefan (Jun 3, 2019)

Lay hands on a copy of Machine Tool Practices by Kibbe.
Some of the earlier editions have an excellent chapter on the shaper.


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## Choiliefan (Jun 3, 2019)

Apparently Lindsay Publications was taken over by https://www.youroldtimebookstore.com/
They going out of business and are having a massive sale through the end of June.
You may find something there.  https://www.youroldtimebookstore.com/category-s/2072.htm


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 3, 2019)

Pretty brazen, the academic publisher scam on these textbooks. 11th edition: $200. 10th edition: $118. 9th edition: $18. Only minor differences in the content but you gotta have the latest edition for class!

Works out well for us non-students though.


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## Choiliefan (Jun 3, 2019)

New editions probably have to be up to date far as CNC and possibly 3D printing.
Most of my books were published at the dawn of numerical control showing punched tape and the Friden Flexowriter.


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## Iceberg86300 (Jun 3, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> Pretty brazen, the academic publisher scam on these textbooks. 11th edition: $200. 10th edition: $118. 9th edition: $18. Only minor differences in the content but you gotta have the latest edition for class!
> 
> Works out well for us non-students though.


It was freaking terrible when I was in college. Take fluids 1 sophomore year & fluids 2 Junior year? Need a new book! Get unlucky & have fluids 3 senior year? Need a new book!! Get a new professor looking to make their mark? Need a new book!!

Thermo & heat transfer professors were actually sane & did the bit of extra work to assign problem sets & give answers from the last 3 editions. Problems were identical their setup, simply shifted around & with different numbers. That was about the only functional difference in each edition. Thermo Prof: "thermodynamics hasn't changed in the last 200 years, requiring new editions is a scam." He was, by far, my favorite & best Prof I had in college.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## stioc (Jun 3, 2019)

OK so I'm most of the way done flipping through Lipton's book while I also ordered the kindle edition of the Harvey book. I have to say the Lipton book is better even though the initial few chapters were just very high level stuff the later chapters actually have good advice. The Harvey book is so-so, a lot of the tips are repeated and many are nothing new etc.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 11, 2019)

Bill_729 said:


> Did you ever read "Tool Design", by Donaldson, LeCain and Goold, or do you have an opinion on it?
> I almost bought it, bought a different book instead, and added it to my "maybe" list.



So you know, I saw this for about fifteen bucks and decided hey, why not. Spent a couple nights paging through it.
It is very similar to _Fundamentals of Tool Design_, in fact they cover the same material in pretty much the same order.

Not sure which one I like better. _Fundamentals_ is a bit more clear, both in the writing and in the diagrams, but this one provides more detail as well as more context. There are also "design problems" which would be used as classroom assignments that are quite good, at least as thought experiments to test your grasp of the concepts. So it's a good book, and I've learned a few things just from the extra discussion that _Fundamentals_ doesn't provide, and since it is half the price I could easily recommend this book instead.

I'm only comparing it to _Fundamentals_ because they are so similar. I greatly enjoyed Bradley's tiny _Shaping Machine and Lathe Tools_ book (which is a reprint of an older book by Duplex) because it is much more targeted and therefore immediately useful. I'll probably keep that one by the belt sander.


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## stioc (Jun 11, 2019)

@ThinWoodsman  thanks for posting the comparison on those two books.

I just ordered the Engineer's Black Book after looking at some of the samples on their website. For the day to day use I think I'll like it better than the much bigger and harder to read Machinery Handbook even if the latter is far more detailed.


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## stioc (Jun 13, 2019)

Just an update from the OP. I got the Engineer's Black Book 3rd Edition and I looked through 80% of it. I HIGHLY recommend it despite some typos and errors I noticed. I'm sure the same information can be dug up from my 10,000 page Machinery Handbook but the quality of the paper, spiral binding, color charts etc makes it an enjoyable read and I couldn't put it down. The only few negatives besides the typos are: they give you a set of stick on tabs but it's up to you to put them on. It used to come with a plastic drill angle gauge but no longer with the 3rd edition.

I'm wondering if I should've gotten the larger print for $10 more since I'm in the over 40 crowd but this one isn't bad with my reading glasses on.

Lastly, since it's spiral bound I think I can put it on my flat bed scanner and print out some of the frequently used charts for quick reference.


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## StevSmar (Jun 13, 2019)

Thanks for starting this thread, I’ve been having the same questions.



Choiliefan said:


> Lay hands on a copy of Machine Tool Practices by Kibbe...


That looks interesting, thanks for the suggestion. I’ve ordered a used 9th edition version. It gets good reviews on Amazon.


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## Choiliefan (Jun 14, 2019)

I have the 2nd edition of Fundamentals of Tool Design.  
The main focus is designing tooling and fixtures for production machining jobs.  
Roughly half the book has to do with set-ups and cam design for screw machines and turret lathe operations.
There are interesting chapters on welding, springs and material properties and more.


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## StevSmar (Jun 20, 2019)

“Moltrecht's Machine Shop Practice”


Bill_729 said:


> ... +1 on this 2 volume set.  Lathe is covered in the first volume; mill is covered in the second.  I'm almost finished with the first volume, and based upon my satisfaction, I have already ordered the second volume....


I’ve borrowed this from our library and it looks very comprehensive. Just the right balance between pictures/diagrams, text and tables for my liking.


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## Firstgear (Jun 21, 2019)

Iceberg86300 said:


> It was freaking terrible when I was in college. Take fluids 1 sophomore year & fluids 2 Junior year? Need a new book! Get unlucky & have fluids 3 senior year? Need a new book!! Get a new professor looking to make their mark? Need a new book!!
> 
> Thermo & heat transfer professors were actually sane & did the bit of extra work to assign problem sets & give answers from the last 3 editions. Problems were identical their setup, simply shifted around & with different numbers. That was about the only functional difference in each edition. Thermo Prof: "thermodynamics hasn't changed in the last 200 years, requiring new editions is a scam." He was, by far, my favorite & best Prof I had in college.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Thermo I & II as well as Advanced Thermo was very easy.....now 42 years after the fact of which 20 years spent in senior management, don’t ask me!


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## hman (Jun 21, 2019)

The three laws of Thermodynamics ...
1. You can't win
2. You can't even break even
3. You can't even get out of the game
- Alan Bond, University of Chicago, 1966


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## hman (Jun 21, 2019)

I recently bought a copy of the 6th edition of Technology of Machine Tools, and have read about ⅓ of the way through. It seems a bit lightweight for my tastes. If any of you are interested, I'd be happy to send it to you for just the shipping charge.  Send me a PM.


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## Bill_729 (Jun 21, 2019)

Iceberg86300 said:


> It was freaking terrible when I was in college. Take fluids 1 sophomore year & fluids 2 Junior year? Need a new book! Get unlucky & have fluids 3 senior year? Need a new book!! Get a new professor looking to make their mark? Need a new book!!



College textbooks prices are a known "racket".  Some professors take this into consideration and may choose better-priced texts for their classes--at other schools they don't have the freedom to do this. It's a circumstance created by inelastic demand.  Although purists may disagree, to me it rather resembles a monopoly.  Similarly, Intuit spends millions of dollars to lobby congress against provided free electronic (tax) filing. Apparently, it's a good investment for them and congress, but evidently not for their constituents.  Pharmaceutical providers are similar to the above.  In short, power can be predicted to lead to the abuse of it--to the fullest extent possible!   And I generally consider myself a conservative--but it ain't always easy!  : )


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 21, 2019)

StevSmar said:


> “Moltrecht's Machine Shop Practice”
> 
> I’ve borrowed this from our library and it looks very comprehensive. Just the right balance between pictures/diagrams, text and tables for my liking.



Another one to check for in the library is _Machine Tool Operation_ by Burghardt, Axelrod, & Anderson. I originally bought volume II as it had a ton of shaper info, but I enjoyed it so much that I got volume I as well and have been reading it the past few days. Both volumes have stamps from a high school library. These are like the Moltrecht books, only a little more hands-on, and there is extra detail in the coverage of things like cutting tool angles. Obviously some of the chapters feel a bit remedial - this is for shop students, whereas the Moltrecht seems aimed at professionals.


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## 38super (Jun 22, 2019)

YT vids.  Keith Fenner was boring a long tube, loaded up a chip brush with cutting oil, held the brush over the tube opening then used shop air to fog the tube interior.  His procedure lasted maybe 15 seconds.  Some tricks are better seen than read.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 22, 2019)

I dunno, you just saved me watching the video


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## StevSmar (Jun 22, 2019)

YouTube videos are good, but there’s nothing like a combination of trial and error, reading, watching videos, asking questions and demonstration.

My experiments with learning have taught me that there are no shortcuts. Enjoy the learning journey, because you don’t want to arrive at your learning destination too soon and miss the unexpected things you’ll also learn.


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