# Got My First Machine!



## Izzy

I hope this is in the right forum, I got my first machine recently its a Bridgeport series 2. It has a 4hp, 4j head I believe (correct me if I'm wrong I am just starting out!) The motor says it can br wired 230 or 460 and is currently wired for 460vac 3phase. Currently I only have 230 single phase, now I know about reconnecting the wires in the head to make it run on 230vac however I was told If I rewired for 220 I would have to change the heaters, fuses and re-wire the transformer for 230vac aswell is this correct? I plan on using either a vfd or rpc to sort out the 3 phase issue. Would it be cheaper to just get a transformer to go along with the vfd/rpc? I have photos if that helps!


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## talvare

Yes, if the mill has a magnetic starter with heaters, you will have to change them and fuses for the appropriate current rating for 230V operation (the current draw will double when changing from 460V to 230V). I'm not sure what the function of the transformer is for your mill. If it only powers auxiliary 115V devices (axis drives, lights, etc.) or a 115V control circuit, you will have to change the line side tap from the 460V connections to 230V connections. The secondary taps will remain on the 115V connections.Also, if you use an RPC to run your mill, make sure not to connect the "generated" leg to the primary of the transformer.
Hope this helps

Ted


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## Izzy

Yes thank you that does help! How would I go abouts checking to see if it has a magnetic starter?
I believe the autofeeds get power from the machine itself maybe this is what it's for? I know I saw a big transformer in the control panel on the machine, I have pictures of that aswell if that helps? 
How hard is it to change the heaters? Would i be better off just hiring an electrician or would it be cheaper to get a 220 to 460 volt transformer and leave the machine how it is?  
Is there somewhere I could download manuals for this thing? It came with wiring diagrams but a manual would help alot!


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## Izzy

Here are some photos of my machine!


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## eeler1

Can't help with your question, but for a first machine, you done pretty good.


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## mksj

An RPC could work with what you have, you would need to switch out the fuses and motor overload relay. The challenge is all the ancillary electronics. These might run off a specific tap from the transformer, if that is the case then you just need to switch the transformer input tap. A VFD would be a completely different picture, it is directly connected to the motor and you use low voltage switching to run the direction. Easier in some aspects of not needing contactors, overload relays, etc., but essentially you are gutting and doing a complete system build. Also looks like there is a quill power feed, as well as knee, X axis,  and a coolant pump that is 3 phase. You would need to address all the systems voltages.  I would check to see if there is a manual or schematic, it may give some guidance on what is required to switch voltages, I think doing that and going with an RPC would be a good route to consider first.

Manual is available for download, will check to see if there are any details on the electrical.
http://www.industrialmanuals.com/machine_manuals/pdfs/bridgeport seriess II standard milling machine installation,operation and maintenance.pdf


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## talvare

IZ,
I am not familiar with your particular machine and without having a good electrical schematic for this machine, I would have to do a lot of speculating, which generally isn't a good idea with industrial controls. Based on the photo you posted of the electrical panel there are a few things I can determine. The three fuses in the upper right corner are on the main disconnect switch for the machine and those are the main fuses. These will have to be changed when you convert to 230V supply voltage. Directly below these fuses appear to be a reversing magnetic starter (or simple reversing contactor). If there are heaters, this is the component that will  house them. They would also have to be changed. In the upper left corner are five more large fuses which I can only guess are a set of three for a three phase power source to possibly the table drive motor and a pair of two for possibly a single phase power source for maybe a coolant pump. There are several smaller fuses that are likely protecting various control circuits. In the lower center of the panel is what appears to  be a solid state controller, very likely for the table drive motor/motors. Without a schematic, this is all guesswork and really of no value. It sounds like you are not familiar with industrial controls, so my first suggestion would be to get an electrician that is. You don't want to hire a general home type electrician as they generally wouldn't be familiar with industrial controls. Secondly, unless you want to tackle the job of completely updating that electrical panel and its electronic controls, I would not recommend using a VFD to power this machine. An RPC should work just fine, but as I said, you need a schematic so you can determine what changes (heaters, fuses, wiring connections, etc.) need to  be made.

Ted


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## Izzy

Thanks Ted, so your thinking I'd be better off leaving the machine how it is getting a 220-460VAC step up transformer and a RPC? 
I did a little digging and I found out that the transformer inside the panel is infact for the axis motors as they run 90VDC. The machine came with the factory wiring diagram and and a chart for the heaters. Your absolutely right about me experience with industrial controls I'm a mechanic by trade though so I'm not completely cluess on electronic stuff and ohms law. Anything I can do myself I'll try anything more involved I'd be getting an electrician


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## talvare

IZ,
Using a step-up transformer is one option, but it's not the route I'd take if it were mine. (doesn't mean it's wrong, just not my preference) The old saying that "there ain't no free lunch" also applies to electricity. Using an RPC to power your machine induces electrical losses. Using an RPC and a step-up transformer will compound those losses. Also, those step-up transformers can be pricey. Making the necessary changes for the machine  to  operate on 230V shouldn't be that difficult, we just need some accurate, dependable information on that existing control panel, especially a good schematic. The last thing you want to do is let the smoke out of those "old school" electronics. Replacements probably aren't easy to come by.

I tried to zoom in on your photo of the control panel, but things just get too fuzzy for me to decipher any detail. Can you post a photo of the wiring diagram you have ? If it is clear enough to read accurately I should be able to help you with this.

Ted


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## Ulma Doctor

I would not take the step up transformer route if it were my machine when a RPC is so simple to build
heaters and fuses are easy to change
the control transformer is easy to switch to 230v operation
there are newer components to replace any old school component that may be faulty

your transformer may have have some funny number/letter combinations
H1,H2,H3,H4 are all line connections
X1,X2,X3,X4 are secondary voltage
mostlikely your secondary voltage is 115vac, common for machine control voltage.
you can verify the coil voltage from any of the contactors, there is usually a legend plate that specifies voltage on the contactor itself

you'll retap the main motor for 230v operation
retap transformer
change your heaters to double capacity as you will pull twice the amps at 230vac
hook up RPC and make chips!


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## Izzy

@Ted, of course I can upload the wiring diagrams! The machine is being stored at my parents house as they live in the country and have the space for it so I won't be able upload them until I get a chance to get out there.
@Ulma Doctor thank you! That's the kind of straight forward and to the point kind of answer I've been looking for, doesn't seem as hard as everyone's been making it out to be when u put it that way! The transformer inside the machine puts out 90VDC I believe as that's what the axis motors run on does that sound about right?
I'll upload the wiring diagrams as soon as I can thanks for all the help guys!


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## Izzy

That's the axis motor I.d. plate


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## mksj

The axis motors are most likely DC, the transformer puts out AC to the axis controllers which convert them to variable DC. I agree with Ulma Doctor, most of the machine controls run off the secondary from the transformer, the input voltage is often set by the 4 terminals to the transformer. Connection for 460VAC is usually terminals 1 and 4 with a jumper from 2 to 3 (windings are serially connected), connection for 230VAC is power to terminals 1 and 4 with jumpers from 1 to 3 and 2 to 4 (windings are in parallel).  Other transformers have taps for the different line voltages, so usually simple to adjust the input voltage. You will need to check the power down feed, as it is an accessory and not sure how it connects in. If you can get a specific schematic for this machine that would help.  A step up transformer could be pricey unless you can find something used, probably need a 5KVA. AN RPC would be the best power source to convert to 3 phase, and maintain all the machine functions.


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## Ulma Doctor

in picture 3, i'm making the assumption that it is the spindle motor...
you will need to reconfigure those taps
T4,T5,T6 are connected and secured together
T1,T7 and one input leg- go together
T2,T8 and one input leg- go together
T3,T9 and one input leg-go together
tthe spindle motor is now tapped for 230v 3 phase operation


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## talvare

Izzy said:


> @Ted, of course I can upload the wiring diagrams!



This is the first and most important step. Converting the machine to operate on 230v shouldn't be difficult, but you don't want to overlook something and cause damage to any of the electrical equipment. The schematic will help to insure nothing is overlooked. For instance, those five fuses in the upper left corner of the panel are protecting SOMETHING, what, I don't know but possibly the power down feed motor, coolant pump, etc. If those auxiliary motors are also currently wired for 460V operation, they will also have to be re-configured for 230V and the fuses changed as well. I'm just trying to make the point that it's important to be thorough in making the change over to 230V.

Ted


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## Izzy

of course i agree completely! this is my first machine so i wana make sure im doing everything right i got it for a steal at a machine shop auction and i know there would be no other way i would have been able to afford something like this so i deffinetely dont want to screw anything up! lol i wont be able to get the wiring diagrams up until next weekend when i visit mom and pop ( and the machine of course  ). yall have been a real confidence boost though! the last forum i was on all i kept hearing was "google it" or "you're way in over your head"  all i was asking for was a little help like i did here and they just shut me down but a simple explanation like i got here and it all makes sense and seems alot easier than what they made it out to be! 
in the mean time where do i find endmills and parts for the machine? im gonna take a guess and say ordering online is my best bet?


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## Ulma Doctor

when someone tells you to google something, that means that they have no idea on how to help you.
they are intimidated by their lack of understanding and rather than learn something themselves the'd rather pass the buck,
if you'd know the real truth.

your conversion will be only as hard as you make it
there are some things to be learned but none of them, my friend, are out of your reach.
get verification if you do not know how to do something, but do not let it be a barrier to success.
i'll be happy to assist you in getting it to make chips, i'm sure that other members can and will help out as well
you are not alone


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## Izzy

I can't wait to get this thing up and running!  thanks for all the support guys I'll post up those diagrams as soon as I can!


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## Izzy

Alright guys time for an update! Got around to getting lots of detailed pics of everything and brought the wiring diagrams home with me to study over. After a detailed Inspection on the machine its clear its a little rough and needs some work. Let me know if you guys think it's still salvageable the knee way is pretty rough. The table has a couple dings and a few scratches but I think it might just need some elbow grease, there was however alot more rust build up on the table than I thought alot of it cleaned up with wd40 and a scotch before but the dark areas are rusted enough that when I attempted to witness file the table it just caked up my file with rust!


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## Izzy

Some more pics...


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## Izzy

Aaand a few more...


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## Izzy

And some close ups of the electrical.... I have a whole bunch of detailed pictures if any more are needed


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## Izzy

Forgot to mention it looks like it's a 4 wire motor atleast thats all I saw when I opened up the junction box...


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## Izzy

@Ulma Doctor, @talvare  where did everyone go? Lol


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## Ulma Doctor

sorry i have a crazy job schedule- i saw the pictures
i can't really read your fuse amp sizes, but they are most likely relatively low 
the contactor coils will need to be appropriate for your control voltage
i see that the input for the dc control unit is 115v  and the transformer is 115v output
i could not clearly see the contactors, a slight close up of them side by side may help out
sorry for the delay in reply


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## Ulma Doctor

Izzy said:


> Forgot to mention it looks like it's a 4 wire motor atleast thats all I saw when I opened up the junction box...


are we talking about the spindle motor or another motor?


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## Izzy

Hey no worries no rush just didn't wana get left behind lol. I'll be at the machine again this weekend and I'll be able to take more pics, the contactor is the thing with the white reset button right? 
Yes I was talking about the spindle motor the male plug/wires lead Into the junction box and just connect to 3 wires and one to ground


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## talvare

Sorry for the late response. Just haven't had time to get on the forum lately. Anyway, you will need to re-do the connections in the motor junction box. The wiring diagram is on the lower right corner of the motor name plate. You will wire nut number's 4, 5, and 6 together. Then wire nut #1, #7 and L1 together, then #8, #2 and L2 together, then #9, #3 and L3 together (L1, L2, and L3 are your three phase power supply to the motor). I'm having a very hard time trying to read details on the wiring diagrams and various electrical components in the control panel. I'm going to see if I can enlarge the photos and I'll get back to you.

Ted


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## Izzy

@Ted I think the pictures may be getting blurry after uploading is there a way to directly send them to you? 
As for the motor wiring, there where only 3 wires coming out of the motor are the other 6 inside? I'm gonna take some of the covers off this weekend to get a better look at everything.


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## talvare

Izzy,
I think you're going to have to make another attempt at getting some higher resolution photos of those wiring diagrams. They look like good diagrams but I just can't read the lettering and numbers. You may need to take close-up shots in sections and then we'll try to arrange them properly to compose the complete wiring diagram. You mentioned that you had a chart for the heaters. That should give you the info you need to purchase new heaters for 230V operation. In case you don't know, the heaters are the little blocks with two screws in them that the T1, T2 and T3 wires are connected to on the bottom of the reversing starter in your photo. I think those are Allen-Bradley magnetic starters. You'll need to read the data plates and verify that. The heaters have to be the same brand as the starters because different manufacturers components won't interchange.  I'll keep trying to come up with more info for you and report back.

Ted


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## talvare

Izzy said:


> @Ted I think the pictures may be getting blurry after uploading is there a way to directly send them to you?
> As for the motor wiring, there where only 3 wires coming out of the motor are the other 6 inside? I'm gonna take some of the covers off this weekend to get a better look at everything.



Izzy,
I guess we're both typing at the same time. I wasn't paying attention to the photo of the motor peckerhead you posted. Apparently they made up the high voltage connections inside the motor and just brought out the #1,2, and 3 wires. You're going to have to do a little investigating to see if those #4,5,6,7,8 and 9 wires are accessible.
Yes, you can e-mail the photos to me at jta101@surewest.net.

Ted


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## Izzy

Just sent an email! I'll be at the machine later today I'll dig a little deeper and report back!


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## Ulma Doctor

i'm wondering if the spindle motor was rewound for 460v only,
most times the 9 wires are instantly visible as soon as you take the enclosure cap off


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## Izzy

Its possible I mean the machine is from 81! Doesnt look like anything has been touched on it in a long time tho but this could also explain the "wired 460 volt" sticker I thought that may have just meant that it's connected for 460 not permanently wired like that lol guess I'll find out tonight when I get the cover off!


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## talvare

Izzy,

For some reason one of the posts I did last night has disappeared. Concerning the connections in the motor junction box, I wasn't paying attention to the photo you posted. It looks like wires #4 through #9 have been connected inside the motor and only wires #1, 2 & 3 have been brought out into the junction box. You'll have to do some investigating to see if you can access those six wires to make the re-connects. I have been trying to study the electrical schematics that you e-mailed to me. They are still a little difficult to read but definitely better than those posted here. It looks like those are not the Bridgeport schematics. They are apparently from TRW who I'm guessing either installed or modified the controls for this mill. There are a lot of had written changes and things that have been eliminated with white-out. It looks like the lube pump and the control circuit are 115V. There is a 115V circuit going to a symbol on the diagram that is labeled "Quill". The problem is that it doesn't indicate if that symbol is the quill motor or a control unit for the quill motor....I'm guessing the latter. See if you can  take a picture of the data plate on the quill motor and post it here. These things being 115V is good news because they don't require any changes. You will just have to change the primary  (input) connections  on the transformer for 230V supply voltage. I will get back to you with some info on your fuses.

Ted


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## Izzy

Ted, you are the man! I would be lost without right now brother! So I thought there was a cover for the motor being held down with 4 bolts, take the bolts out and the whole motor came out! Its a little late for me now but ill dig into the motor a little more tomorrow and see what I can find and report back.
The quill has an autofeed, I'm not sure I saw an i.d. tag on it though I'll check tomorrow and see what I can find.


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## talvare

Ulma Doctor said:


> i'm wondering if the spindle motor was rewound for 460v only,
> most times the 9 wires are instantly visible as soon as you take the enclosure cap off


Izzy,

Mike (Ulma Doctor) may be correct about this motor. According to the data plate it was originally a dual voltage motor, but maybe somewhere in it's life it was re-wound and they just hard wired it for 460V. See if those other wires are accessible. If not, you'll have to either take the motor to a motor shop and have them bring out the 230V connections, buy a new motor or go with using a step-up transformer and run this machine on 460V. Let me know what you find out.

Ted


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## Izzy

Alright guys so I got the motor off I'm trying to take the cover off but I need to remove this half of the pulley that is just not coming off! I've removed the 2 little pig nuts that hold it into place and sprayed some wd40 around the shaft and keyway to try and free it up, beat it with a hammer and still nothing... Any tricks to getting this out?


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## Ulma Doctor

you really don't need to go any further unless you are going to repair the motor or change the bearings as far as i can see.
you'd already be able to tell if it was a dual voltage motor- 
the motor looks to have been wound for 460v only operation.
you are most likely not going to be able to convert it back yourself without a lot of heartache.
you could take it to a motor shop and go down that road, but i think that you may be at a point where a 460v step up transformer
may be the best and least costly option for you
unless you'd like to go through the process of conversion, that is also an option- but it's not the easiest road to travel


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## john.oliver35

Is the pulley steel or cast iron?  If it is steel I would rig up a puller that grasps the edges of the pulley and draws it towards the end of shaft.  If it is cast iron, well I would wait for others here to respond - I would hate to tell you something that could crack the pulley.

A little heat on the pulley could help, just don't get carried away and catch any grease on the motor on fire.

Have you seen any witness marks on the shaft that the pulley has moved at all?  In either direction?


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## JimDawson

Normally they just press on/off without too much effort.

I used a 3-jaw puller to get mine off.  Use some care when pulling, it is possible to break the pulley with too much pressure on the outside rim.  Maybe a little heat concentrated on the pulley away from the motor shaft would be helpful.  You may have to remove the endbell with the pulley half in place, then press the the pulley off using some thin plates in a press.


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## Izzy

@Ulma Doctor there where only 3 wires coming out of the motor I just wanted to take the cover off to see if the other 6 wires have been tucked inside or if you are correct about it being wound for 460, I think I'll probably get a transformer the way it's looking tho...


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## Ulma Doctor

if the machine ran on 460 before,
adding up the sum of all that you'd need to possibly do and the time it will take to do it, would be a wash
you could source a 230v motor and reconfigure the electrical system to any degree you can imagine.
i think you wanna make chips, throwing a lot of money and time at a conversion may not be the best money spent
especially if you can get a transformer from a surplus vendor like HGR or someone similar
you may need to hire a sparky(electrician) to do the final hook up to get your code papers straight
arguably, it will be the best way for this case IMO


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## talvare

Izzy,

First, that pulley should just have a key and set screw holding it on. Make sure it isn't double set-screwed (one set screw on top of another). That is a common practice. As stated by others here, be sure to support the pulley well so you don't break it.
Secondly, as for the electrical situation, you have three options : 1-get the existing motor rewired for 230V, 2- purchase a new 230V motor, 3- use a 230V to 460V step-up transformer. I think a portion of this decision would be determined on whether or not this machine is going to be a short or long term ownership. Short term, I think the quickest, easiest and MAYBE least expensive is to go with the step-up transformer. Long term, I personally would make the conversion to 230V operation. I am not an electrical engineer so am not sure how to make accurate calculations for you concerning the electrical efficiency losses you will have when stepping up to 460V operation. It may also require that you use a larger capacity RPC, I'm not sure. But these things will very likely increase the operating cost of the machine (higher electric bill). That may or may not be important to you, but something you should be aware of.

Ted


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## Izzy

I got this machine for an absolute steal and I know it's a pretty robust machine compared to the series 1, so I don't think I'll be replacing it anytime soon I think I got very lucky on this machine as is. That being said i would like to get it up and running for as cheap and reliable as possible. They guy I bought the machine off of gave me one of his contacts for used transformers and such but as I agree with you about converting to 230 due to the electricity costs tho. Just gotta weigh out my options at this point...


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## Izzy

Also I got some better pics of everything and the I.d. tag on the quill feed motor


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## talvare

Izzy
Those are Allen Bradley magnetic starters using an overload block with W46 heaters. If you change that spindle motor to 230V you will need W54 heaters. The coils are 115V so you won't need to change those. The quill motor is DC so it must be powered by the electronic control unit in the electrical panel, so you shouldn't need to make any changes there.

Ted


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## Izzy

Awesome! I feel like this is getting easier and I'm better understanding it all as we go along that's a good thing right? Lol I deffinetly want to keep it so I'm considering still going through with the 230vac operation.
If I end up getting a new motor I'm assuming it has to be rated for atleast 4hp correct? Can I go higher? And does it have to be a specific kind of motor or any old 3phase motor will do? I've got a 5hp leeson motor lying around that has dual voltage connections but I'd have to find a way to mount it standing up as it only has a side mount plate...


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## JimDawson

5hp would be fine........BUT, BPs and other mills use non standard motor frame sizes.  Special mount and shaft.  A 184C frame might work, but the standard shaft won't work with the veri-drive.


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## Izzy

So I have to use a Bridgeport motor?


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## JimDawson

Not necessarily, Baldor sells BP frame motors, but they are expensive.  Kent sells a 3 HP including the pulley that might fit for about US$900.    Acer has a Baldor Super-E BP style motor, but I'm not sure of the price.

You might check with H.H. Roberts Machinery Limited in Mississauga and see what they can offer.  http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/Support/CNC-Machine-Parts-Lists/cnc-machine-parts-lists.html


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## mksj

A few things that you might consider. There is no difference in electricity costs if you use 230 vs step up to 460VAC, the efficiency of transformers is on the order of 90-95%. The machine has a 4Hp motor which is more than adequate, most of us get by with 1-3Hp machines with no issues. A 5Hp would be overkill, let alone the added weight, and then there is the fitment and the cost. If you are looking at a replacement motor, heaters, fuses and maybe someone to check it when you are done, it will get pricey. Not saying it isn't the correct route, but if one is not familiar/comfortable with converting to the low voltage setup, I would recommend a 230 to 460VAC 3 phase transformer. 

If you want to pursue the 230VAC conversion, I would first bring the motor to a motor shop and see what would be involved in converting to 230V. Most of the control systems/drives, run off of 120VAC secondary, so in these cases the fusing if on the output side would not be changed. The transformers have taps and would need different jumpers for 230V operation. Since this is an integrated machine with a number of control systems and drives, there is a little more to think about in switching voltages. I would price out the options, a 3 phase  step up transformer in the 5-7.5KVA range in the used market would be around 300-$500, shipping could also be costly. You also have the cost of an RPC. So I would think the first step is having the motor looked at.


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## Izzy

It seems to me like either route is going to be pricey I'll just have to price out some parts and compare the 2.
So if I understand correctly it won't make a difference in how it runs physically and cost wise whether I run it 230 or 460 only difference will be the start up cost? I'll call some motor shops around town and some use transformer dealers and see what I come up with
@JimDawson thanks for the link! Mississauga is only an hour or 2 from where I live!


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## mksj

Izzy said:


> So if I understand correctly it won't make a difference in how it runs physically and cost wise whether I run it 230 or 460 only difference will be the start up cost


Correct. It really comes down to the ability to convert the motor to 230V and cost of the conversion to 230V vs. the cost of a step-up transformer. There should be used step up/step down transformers at reasonable prices, but it may take some time and any  shipping costs. Some people will use a step down transformer and back feed the 230VAC secondary to get 460/480VAC out of the primary, there can be some issues with this approach. Typically the wingdings are designed to account for a 5-6% voltage drop in the conversion, so they are not an exact 2:1 ratio for something like a 460 to 230VAC transformer. By back feeding the secondary, you might see something like 480VAC instead of 460VAC. Most machines can operate in a +/-5% voltage window, and there should be some voltage drop in the wiring, etc.   The larger the transformer, the larger the inrush current when it becomes initially energized, this can trip breakers, so I would not significantly oversize the transformer (something in the 5-12kVA range). Others may have more detailed comments and experience in this area.


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## Izzy

Well I was just quoted $650 for the re-wind.... I'm gonna be 600 deep atleast if I get a used step up transformer and an RPC... Another option would be to sell this motor to offset the cost of buying a 230 volt moto hmmmm....


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## JimDawson

Your motor might not need a full rewind.  I suspect that it has been rewound before and maybe they just didn't bring out all of the leads.  It might be worth a trip over to the motor shop and let them take a look at it.  It may just be simple as bringing the leads out which should not cost anywhere near $650


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## John Hasler

mksj said:


> Typically the wingdings are designed to account for a 5-6% voltage drop in the conversion, so they are not an exact 2:1 ratio for something like a 460 to 230VAC transformer. By back feeding the secondary, you might see something like 480VAC instead of 460VAC.


Other way around.  In order to get 240 out with 480 in while accounting for full load voltage drop the turns ratio is slightly less than 2:1.   This means that when you turn it around the no load output voltage will be slightly less than twice the input voltage.  Integral horsepower motors are generally pretty tolerant of voltage variations, though, especially when never started under load and rarely (if ever) run at anything like full load.

You might consider a single-phase transformer and a "static converter" (which is really a way to turn a three-phase motor into a capacitor-start capacitor-run single phase motor).


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## Izzy

The guy I got it from was saying to run it on static converters but I never looked into those as much as I have RPCs and such, ive contacted a few local guys and ive found transformer and vfd combos for about 600 I'll have to continue my tear down of the motor to see if the leads are tucked away or not. Thanks for the help so far guys!


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## John Hasler

Izzy said:


> The guy I got it from was saying to run it on static converters but I never looked into those as much as I have RPCs and such, ive contacted a few local guys and ive found transformer and vfd combos for about 600 I'll have to continue my tear down of the motor to see if the leads are tucked away or not. Thanks for the help so far guys!


Unless you can find the other leads and reconnect for 240 I'd suggest going with the VFD.


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## Izzy

I'm gonna dig into the motor a little more and see what I can find, I'm just having trouble getting the bottom half of the pulley out...


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## talvare

John Hasler said:


> Unless you can find the other leads and reconnect for 240 I'd suggest going with the VFD.



John & Izzy,

You could use a VFD but it would only power the spindle motor. The rest of the machine would have to be run from a different power source since there are several other motors and at least some if not all, are DC. Actually, I think the rest of the machine could be operated by supplying 230V single phase power to the primary side of the control transformer that's in the electrical control panel. Components like the magnetic starters could be eliminated (or just disconnected).  That may be a good way to go. I'll have to think about that some more.

Ted


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## Izzy

The feed motors would need to be powered separately even if I went with a transformer and vfd setup? so I would power the machine with 460 3phase just as it is I've been calling around and I found a used vfd/transformer set up for 600. But if there's anything cheaper and easier I'm in!


----------



## JimDawson

Izzy said:


> The feed motors would need to be powered separately even if I went with a transformer and vfd setup?



The VFD/transformer is only for the spindle motor.  The rest of the equipment all seems to be 120V.  You could split that off ahead of the transformer, or just run another cord and plug it into the wall.  That's what I do.


----------



## talvare

Izzy,

I was just looking at the schematics that you e-mailed to me. What you could do is get a VFD with 230v single phase input and 460V three phase output rated to operate your 4 HP motor. Wire the 460V three phase output from the VFD to the tops of the three fuses designated as FU-2 in your panel (you would discard the existing wiring to and from those fuses). Then disconnect the three wires (T1,T2 & T3) from the bottom heater connections on the magnetic starter and connect them to the bottom side of the FU-2 fuses. This should put your VFD power directly to the spindle motor and utilize the existing fuses to protect the motor. Then you would disconnect the existing wires from the tops of the fuses designated as FU-3 and connect a 230V single phase power source to the top side of these fuses. Then you just need to re-do the primary side wiring on the control transformer and connect it for the 230V input as shown on the transformer. I think that should work. I'll give it some more thought to make sure I'm not overlooking something.

Ted


----------



## JimDawson

talvare said:


> What you could do is get a VFD with 230v single phase input and 460V three phase output rated to operate your 4 HP motor.



Have you got a link to a voltage doubling, 230V input VFD?  Be a handy thing to have for some applications, but I have never seen one. I have seen (and used) 120V in, 230V out VFDs



talvare said:


> Wire the 460V three phase output from the VFD to the tops of the three fuses designated as FU-2 in your panel (you would discard the existing wiring to and from those fuses). Then disconnect the three wires (T1,T2 & T3) from the bottom heater connections on the magnetic starter and connect them to the bottom side of the FU-2 fuses. This should put your VFD power directly to the spindle motor and utilize the existing fuses to protect the motor.



Normally you don't want anything but wire (or a choke) between the VFD and the motor.  The VFD takes care of the motor overload protection.


----------



## talvare

JimDawson said:


> Have you got a link to a voltage doubling, 230V input VFD?  Be a handy thing to have for some applications, but I have never seen one. I have seen (and used) 120V in, 230V out VFDs



No I haven't Jim. I guess I was assuming that since they make 120V in / 240V out that there would be a 230V in / 460V out. I guess not ?? So, I guess he's back to needing a step-up transformer if he stays with 460V.

Ted


----------



## Izzy

JimDawson said:


> The VFD/transformer is only for the spindle motor.  The rest of the equipment all seems to be 120V.  You could split that off ahead of the transformer, or just run another cord and plug it into the wall.  That's what I do.


 ahh see I was under the impression that I just had to run 460volt 3phase power to it and it would all run the same because of the step down transformer it has for the feed motors I'm glad I've got some help tho I'd be upstream without a paddle!


----------



## JimDawson

I did a little research and found it is possible to modify some 460V VFDs to make them 230 in 460 out but only up to about 3 hp without extensive modification for the higher HPs


----------



## JimDawson

Izzy said:


> ahh see I was under the impression that I just had to run 460volt 3phase power to it and it would all run the same because of the step down transformer it has for the feed motors I'm glad I've got some help tho I'd be upstream without a paddle!



That's what is so great about this forum, we try to keep each other out of trouble.


----------



## talvare

I think Izzy needs one of  these:






Ted


----------



## JimDawson

:+1:


----------



## Izzy

Lol that video XD they did another one of those videos but with a transmission, kills me everytime XD. 
If I went with an rpc instead of a VFD would I still need to re configure the control voltage? 
If it ran on 460 3phase before why would I need to change things if it still has the original voltage? Just trying to understand how this all works


----------



## Ulma Doctor

if it ran before on 460 volts 3 phase and you hooked it up to 460v 3 phase again, logic would tell you that it should run exactly as it is.


----------



## Izzy

So just go ahead with a rpc and transformer? Cuz then it would all be same as before. If I'm understanding this correctly a vfd is just a motor controller where as a rpc just puts out 3 phase power correct?


----------



## JimDawson

The RPC/transformer would work fine.  An RPC outputs 3 phase but has no other control functionality.

Or so would the VFD.  The VFD outputs 3 phase also and is a variable frequency motor controller which is kinda handy.

I would take your motor over to the motor shop and see what it would take for them to get it to run on 230V.  I really don't think it needs a rewind to do that.  And I'm pretty sure they can get that pulley off also.


----------



## Izzy

I haven't had time to mess around with the motor but I should be able to get it off. 
Going back to what Ted said about the vfd only powering the spindle motor why is that? Like wouldnt I just run the 3 phase wires out of the vfd to L1, L2, and L3 at the top of these fuses and be good to go? Doesn't the machine have a step down transformer that converts from 460vac-120vdc? I feel like I'm missing something and that's why I'm.not getting it :/


----------



## JimDawson

The reason is that the VFD output must be connected directly to the motor.  No fuses, overloads, switches, etc.  The VFD takes care of all of the safety stuff and switching.  The VFD is not a 3 phase power source like a RPC, it is a 3 phase motor controller.  It will convert single phase to 3 phase, but can only work correctly when connected to a motor, or maybe to the motor through a 3 phase transformer.


----------



## talvare

Izzy said:


> Going back to what Ted said about the vfd only powering the spindle motor why is that?



What Jim said plus, VFD's provide "variable" voltage and frequency. You don't want anything other than the proper "constant" voltage and frequency going to those electronic components as well as things like the coils on the mag starters, relays, etc.

Ted


----------



## talvare

Ulma Doctor said:


> if it ran before on 460 volts 3 phase and you hooked it up to 460v 3 phase again, logic would tell you that it should run exactly as it is.



Zactly !!


----------



## Izzy

Ok ok I think I understand, so since the vfd doesn't put out a consistent voltage and frequency it would mess with the rest of the electrical components as they need one constant voltage to work correct? So that means that I could just run 3 phase power from a rpc to those fuses in that picture then I wouldn't have to touch anything correct?


----------



## JimDawson

Yup!    But you still need to deal with the 230-460 issue.


----------



## Izzy

Ok I think I'm getting somewhere lol so would it work if I ran a roto phase to a 3phase step up transformer so then I'd have 3 phase 230 in and 3phase 460 out? Then just ran that to the L1, L2 and L3 terminals on the fuses?


----------



## talvare

Izzy said:


> Ok I think I'm getting somewhere lol so would it work if I ran a roto phase to a 3phase step up transformer so then I'd have 3 phase 230 in and 3phase 460 out? Then just ran that to the L1, L2 and L3 terminals on the fuses?



Yes


----------



## JimDawson

Yes.........But, by the time you buy a RCP and a 3 phase transformer you will have more $$$$$ into it than just getting the motor to run on 230, and buy a VFD.


----------



## Izzy

Awesome! And if I went that route I wouldn't have to touch anything else just turn it on and make chips right? If I can't find the other 6 connections in the motor I'll probably go down that route as I've got a line on a rpc and transformer. 
I know Ive been annoying with the simple questions and all but I appreciate y'all walkin me through this!


----------



## Izzy

talvare said:


> Izzy,
> 
> I was just looking at the schematics that you e-mailed to me. What you could do is get a VFD with 230v single phase input and 460V three phase output rated to operate your 4 HP motor. Wire the 460V three phase output from the VFD to the tops of the three fuses designated as FU-2 in your panel (you would discard the existing wiring to and from those fuses). Then disconnect the three wires (T1,T2 & T3) from the bottom heater connections on the magnetic starter and connect them to the bottom side of the FU-2 fuses. This should put your VFD power directly to the spindle motor and utilize the existing fuses to protect the motor. Then you would disconnect the existing wires from the tops of the fuses designated as FU-3 and connect a 230V single phase power source to the top side of these fuses. Then you just need to re-do the primary side wiring on the control transformer and connect it for the 230V input as shown on the transformer. I think that should work. I'll give it some more thought to make sure I'm not overlooking something.
> 
> Ted


 that sounds easy enough hopefully I can find the other 6 wires so I can go down this route it seems cheaper and quicker as far as getting it running goes if I can't find the other 6 wires then a rpc and transformer will be my next option I was quoted 600 for the rpc and transformer together


----------



## JimDawson

$600 is a pretty good price, so that is a good option.


----------



## Izzy

Yea it's not too bad I'm still gonna try for the 230vac conversion if I can that seems like the cheapest and most reliable option but it's always good to have a back up right!?


----------



## John Hasler

Izzy said:


> Ok ok I think I understand, so since the vfd doesn't put out a consistent voltage and frequency it would mess with the rest of the electrical components as they need one constant voltage to work correct? So that means that I could just run 3 phase power from a rpc to those fuses in that picture then I wouldn't have to touch anything correct?


You probably could configure the VFD to just act as a constant voltage, constant frequency three phase source (possibly with some additional components) but it would be a waste.


----------



## mksj

So maybe a few thing to clarify.

I am not aware of any VFDs that have 230VAC in (single or three phase) that will regenerate it to 460VAC.  Above 3Hp, most VFD are 3 phase input, to use on 230VAC single phase you need to double the VFD rating. So in this case, something like a 7.5 or 10Hp VFD to run a 4Hp motor, pricey for a decent VFD. It is not recommended to use a VFD as a fixed frequency 3 phase output to a machine when there are other components systems other than a motor; i.e. transformers DC drives, etc. Most likely both will be damaged. There are fixed phase solid state converters, they are very expensive.

Even if the machine was wired for 230 VAC and you did not have the motor issue (it can be rewired to 230VAC), you still could not run it off a VFD wired directly to the machine, the cost of a single phase in to 3 phase out in the 4-5 Hp, you would be looking at a similar cost of an RPC. At 3Hp and below a VFD for a single machine is more economical. 

If you where to use a VFD, it would be wired directly to the motor, and would be separate form the rest of the powered components. It can be done to just run the motor, but it makes a lot of the controls and load meter useless. So you are talking a lot of rewiring and new switches. Most of the machine drives and electronics operate off of 115VAC output from the large 2kVA transformer, the transformer could be wired for 230VAC and only is connected to L1 and L3 (so it is essentially single phase).  So a total rewire and new controls. 

A VFD since it is a direct connect to the motor does not require output fusing, but should have input fusing. More wiring and costs, VFDs use high speed fuses which can be expensive, otherwise use a breaker

A static converter is a band-aid, the spindle motor would lose about 1/2 of its rated Hp, the other components would not care because they essentially run off of single phase.

If the machine is rewired for 230VAC running off a RPC, you still need to change the fusing and the motor thermal/current relays.
A VFD in my view doesn't add anything in this picture, mostly because there are lots of subsystems, you do not need the speed control, or the other features one uses on VFD. I have built a number of VFD systems, and I am a proponent of them, but this is one situation where I do not think it is a good fit unless you redo the whole system.

So we are back to what is the easiest way to be plug and play (and probably the least expensive route unless the motor can easily be rewired). A RPC and then a step up transformer going to 460VAC, this is what I most commonly see if it is not a simple rewiring of the motor. Brain fart on the step down transformer and voltages when using it to back feed.  So your voltage would drop a bit, but that is not an issue, given line voltages tend to be a bit higher these days it would be fine. These are very common on the used market. If you opt not to use a step up or back feed a step down transformer, next would be taking the motor to a shop and seeing if they can rewire it to 230VAC, this is not something obvious that you will find the wires and know how to reconfigure them. A motor shop  can asses and hopefully bring the correct wires out in the proper fashion. Then change the fuses, wiring to the transformers and thermal relays. Once again, you need to be comfortable, and need to methodically trace the power in and makes sure it is rewired/fused correctly. If the fuses are on the output side (secondary) of a transformer, they would not be changed.

If you were quoted $600 for an RPC and step-up transformer for this size load, I would jump on that in a heartbeat.


----------



## Izzy

I think at this point I need to wait till I open up the motor and see if theres more wires in there and if not I'll have to go with plan B. If it comes down to it would It be roto-phase to transformer to machine or transformer roto-phase machine?


----------



## JimDawson

Izzy said:


> Yea it's not too bad I'm still gonna try for the 230vac conversion if I can that seems like the cheapest and most reliable option but it's always good to have a back up right!?



Having a plan ''B'' is always a good thing.


----------



## JimDawson

_''........ be roto-phase to transformer to machine''_  Yes


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## Izzy

@mksj I think we posted at the same time lol but I agree with you I don't see a vfd being any better than a rpc I've got veri-drive so I don't need to adjust the motors speed. To adress your 6th point if it comes down to it I'll probably just leave it 460 and just run a rpc to a transformer like you said ive already got a line on those 2 things so unless the re-wire will be cheaper/easier than I'll probably end up going down the rpc/transformer route


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## Izzy

He said it was a 5kVa transformer is that good enough? He wanted 250 for the transformer alone there was another fellow selling a 10kVa for 400


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## JimDawson

5 KVA should be plenty.


----------



## talvare

Izzy said:


> He said it was a 5kVa transformer is that good enough?



5KVa may be boarderline if you ever use the machine to it's upper HP potential. Here's some info: http://dongan.com/wp-content/uploads/SizingTransformers.pdf

Ted


----------



## John Hasler

talvare said:


> 5KVa may be boarderline if you ever use the machine to it's upper HP potential. Here's some info: http://dongan.com/wp-content/uploads/SizingTransformers.pdf
> 
> Ted


He is not going to be operating at full load for extended periods.


----------



## Izzy

I agree I plan on being super careful with this thing I know I got alot more mill than what I need but the price was right and that's all that matters to me lol and its jusy going to be hobby mill so it won't see lots of use mostly just weekend projects here and there


----------



## Izzy

Little update! Got some more cleaning done on the machine! The table is no longer brown!  varsol worked one hell of alot better than wd-40!


----------



## Izzy

So I tried locking the ways and I think the gibs need adjustment when I pull the locking lever as far as they will go it still doesn't lock on any of the axes I also noticed that my table has a bit of play side to side in the Y axis is this normal?


----------



## Ulma Doctor

Izzy said:


> So I tried locking the ways and I think the gibs need adjustment when I pull the locking lever as far as they will go it still doesn't lock on any of the axes I also noticed that my table has a bit of play side to side in the Y axis is this normal?


Hi Izzy,
side to side clearance would indicate that the gibs will need adjustment.

is it normal? yes, for a maladjusted machine  but you can correct that.

below is a manual pdf that may help you out


----------



## Silverbullet

Wow , I just read all the posts ,jeeze sounds like an ulcer working.  Hope you get the transformer , I'd Ck HGR also, they have tons of items like you need. There the problem is shipping cost plus there PACKING costs or skidding for forklift. You I think should take the motor and at least get it checked out , the bearings YA may want to replace while it's off. It's a beautiful machine and a little work by you and it should work longer then your lifetime. Good luck with your great mill.


----------



## Izzy

@Ulma Doctor thanks! I'll post up with more updates as soon as I can things have been slow on the machine since ive been busy preparing for winter and what not.
@Silverbullet thank you! Its in alot better shape than I had first thought! I was told that most of the bearings where recently replaced so I want to get it running before I change any parts hell maybe I'll get lucky and it'll run mint! I plan on opening up the motor to see if the other 6 wires I need are inside or not if not im just going to bring it to a motor shop here in town but first things first I need run 220vac to the garage before anything else!


----------



## vista_joe

Izzy,

I just discovered this thread and I couldn't believe the timing.  I also recently purchased my first mill - a pair of Bridgeport Series II standard knee mills.  I don't have the issue of choosing between static / rpc as I have 3 phase power available.  I have one of the two machines up and running.  On the other one, I have the voltage conversion issue to solve.  The previous owner rewired the main power transformer and spindle motor for 240 volts.  However, he never got it to run properly (said the motor would run but not reverse).

I have managed to acquire some schematics that seem to fit in general but I am still trying to understand them.  The two machines are not the same - one has the controls in the same position as yours but the other one (the one that needs conversion) has the controls under the table to the right of the knee.

I'd be interested in getting a copy of the diagrams you emailed to Ted earlier.

Too bad we are so far apart - would be good to see your machine.  I'm looking forward to hearing what you decide to do with your machine.

This machine is the one I have up and running.




This is the second machine with the controls under the table.
This machine also has more clearance between the table and the quill.  The whole machine is about 7 inches taller than the other one.


----------



## vista_joe

Izzy,

I just started looking at the machine that needs conversion this week.  I'm sure the previous owner did not change fuses nor the heaters so I have to figure that out.  I haven't yet figured out where the heaters are.  My schematic gives some heater part numbers for different voltages but I haven't found any similar parts.  Can anyone point them out to me on the images I uploaded?

I think there may be a wiring change necessary for the load meter but not sure.

I think only the 3 fuses where power enters the cabinet need to be changed.  These fuses on this machine are BUSS NOS 45 (45 amp) while on the other machine are Bullet ECSR20 (20 amp) which doesn't make sense.  Note the cabinets in these two machines are not the same.  Even the size of the fuses is different.  




Here are the contactors and the DBD Relay



Joe


----------



## Izzy

I feel like my machine may have been re-wired at some point as you still have all the Bridgeport parts in there all my parts are Allen Bradley. The heaters I'm pretty sure are on the left of the last photo just look very closely and they should have a W and a number on them like w46 for example. As far as powering my machine goes I've decided to just go with an rpc/transformer set up if the spindle motor doesn't have the connections for 220vac. looks like that first one might be a newer series 2 what are the serial numbers on them? Mine is 873 lol


----------



## vista_joe

Izzy,

Bridgeport Series II #1    Serial # 1937, mfg date 1976
Bridgeport Series II #2    Serial # 3272,  mfg date 1979  (this is the 460 volt machine)

Joe


----------



## vista_joe

According to the schematic I have, the fuse should be 20 amp for the 460 volt machine and 40 amp for the 240 volt machine.  Sounds like someone made some incorrect changes.
Joe


----------



## vista_joe

I think the items on the left of the last photo are the relays for the table, knee up and knee down.  The wire numbers match those in the schematics.  That is referred to as the DBD relay.  The schematic appears to say it is part of the left contactor assy which is the left contactor - center of the last photo.  I've looked pretty closely and do not see any numbering like that or like the schematic indicates.  For the 460 volt config, it would be H-2009-3 with a setting A, BMI 3154-2142.  I don't see anything similarly numbered.

Joe


----------



## Izzy

I won't be at my machine til this weekend. I don't think our machines are wired the same but if you send me your email address I can email you the diagrams I have also did you see the link for the manual in the thread? There's a table wiring schematic in there aswell


----------



## vista_joe

Yes - I saw the link - I already have that manual.  Thanks.
I can email the schematic diagrams I have if you wish. Joe


----------



## markba633csi

Great thread! I hope yous guys get your stuff all sorted out.  Agree with everything here and learned a little too. What are the "heaters" for anyhow (asked Scotty on Star Trek) 
Mark S.


----------



## JimDawson

markba633csi said:


> What are the "heaters" for anyhow



The provide the overload protection for the motor.  When they get too hot, they trip the overload relay thus shutting down the motor.  They have to be sized correctly for the particular motor and motor starter.


----------



## John Hasler

markba633csi said:


> Great thread! I hope yous guys get your stuff all sorted out.  Agree with everything here and learned a little too. What are the "heaters" for anyhow (asked Scotty on Star Trek)
> Mark S.



Induction motors have to draw several times their rated current when starting but if they keep drawing that much current for too long they will catch fire.  Ordinary circuit breakers cannot both reliably pass the starting current and reliably trip if it continues for too long.  Thus each motor gets its own overload protection:

http://www.electricneutron.com/motor-control/types-of-motor-overload-relay/
http://www.industrial-electronics.com/ind-mtr-cntrl_004.html

Small motors often have specially-designed fuses wired into the armature.  Sometimes these "fuses" are self-resetting, and sometimes they're just fuses.  Very small motors are often designed so that they can stall without overheating enough to be a hazard.


----------



## talvare

vista_joe said:


> Can anyone point them out to me on the images I uploaded?Joe



Joe,

It appears that the two large components on the right side of your photo are the reversing magnetic starters which contain the heaters. The heaters are the six silver colored components under the "Bridgeport" name. There is a screw at the top and bottom of each heater which connects them to mag starter. The thing that puzzles me is that it appears that one of those mag starters isn't being used. The line and load side of the one on the right have no  wires connected them. Looks like someone has had  their fingers  in there. You really need to see if you can  locate the  electrical  schematics  for  that machine.

Ted


----------



## vista_joe

Ted,

Thanks for the input - you are correct.  I was just out in the shop investigating and finally figured out the heaters (see photo).  The unused magnetic starter (right in photo) was apparently for an optional second head.  On the other machine, there is an equivalent unused starter but no option for heaters on it.  



I removed this heater from the above starter.



Note the place to mount a second head on this unit.
This sticks out enough that I have bumped my own head - pretty hard a couple of times.



I have tried to locate schematics for these machines but have only found some that were close.
If anyone has schematics and/or maintenance manuals they are willing to email to me, I'd appreciate it very much.  joe.w.robertson@gmail.com

The schematic that I have indicated C-H type starters and that was the number I was looking for which is why I couldn't locate the heaters.  In fact what I have on both machines are Sylvania starters.  For the 480v machine, the heater number is 2446 (active starter) and 2435 (inactive starter).  For my 240v machine the heater is 2438.  

Googling for Sylvania (Joslyn Clark) heaters, I found the following ratings:
2435  --  5.34 amps  (480v machine inactive starter)
2446  --  14.3 amps  (480v machine active starter)
2438  --  7.03 amps  (240v machine active starter)​
These numbers are counter intuitive as a 480v motor should run at 1/2 the 240 v current.  I have found different numbers on these depending on where I look though (1 phase, 3 phase, starter size).  There are others - 2444 (11.9 amps) and 2445 (13 amps).

The (Reliant) motor plate on the 480v machine indicates 12 amps at 230 volts.  Perhaps the 2446 heater is actually OK on this machine? 
For the running 240v machine, the (Emerson) motor plate indicates 10.9 amps at 230 volts.  Must be a more efficient motor on this one.  Sounds like the 7.03 amp heater is under rated on this machine.

Does anyone have a schematic with a table for Sylvania type starter overload heaters and a 4hp motor (4 digit heater numbers like 24xx)?
Joe


----------



## vista_joe

Does anyone have extra knobs like those in the first photo or know where I can buy them?  They are about 3/4" dia.  I need them for the 240v machine (second photo).
If I can't find the knobs,  I'll try to make them using delrin rod but I'd rather have the original.  I wonder how well the delrin will bond to the surface of the broken knobs.



 Joe


----------



## JimDawson

If you pull the panel out and look at the manufactures name on the switch, you should be able to find them on Ebay or a local electrical vendor.  They look like standard 30mm switches, but could be 22mm (mounting hole size).   Can't really tell in the photo.

Here is an option:  https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators


----------



## Izzy

Wow! I've really missed alot! So much more good info! Im really starting to think these machines where built to order you seem to have alot of things my machine doesn't and the more people I come across who have these machines the less in common I find with my machine, aside from the standard 4j head and 11x59 table. mine doesn't have a coolant pump ive heard from a few sources and seen a video on YouTube with a power knee/z-axis option but I'm pretty sure I dony have that either. I'll have to email you those schematics in the morning as I'm just getting to bed! Lol


----------



## vista_joe

Jim,
I don't think the switches from automationdirect will be exact replacements - but I'm really glad you pointed me to this site as there are many goodies there.  I'll try to determine the exact set of contacts on the originals - the 22mm switches for  3 positions are very reasonably priced ($15).  The knob diameter is larger than the original - don't know the mounting hole size until I remove one of the originals.

Izzy,
I found a reference in a notes file from Bridgeport that indicates the Series II were basically hand built to order and had many options.  The two I have are quite different from each other.  One has an Erickson Quick Change 40 spindle while the other one has a standard NTMB 40 taper spindle.  One can have two separate heads and has at least 7" more clearance between the table and spindle.  The motors are of different manufacturers.  All of this on machines that were built within 3 years of each other.
Both have power feeds on the knee, x and y axis plus power quill feed.  One has a 3 axis Newall DRO.

Now I have to proceed to find all of the places I need to oil (and ensure the automatic oiler is working).  I've got a manual that shows this for series I but not series II.  

The quill on my working machine really sticks after it has been sitting for minutes - I've read that I need to use lots of wd40 to clean out gunk that may have accumulated on the quill.

Joe


----------



## Izzy

@vista_joe my quill was also very tight I set the quill stop at the verry bottom so I had the full range of motion with it and just kept feeding it in an out whipping up old dirty oil on the way down and applying wd40 on the way up and finally I lubed the spindle once I was happy with how it moved


----------



## Izzy

Oh also make sure the quill feed oil cup is full its right behind the head near the auto quill feed control box


----------



## vista_joe

Izzy - yet another difference...  One of my machines has the oil cup there (the working / older machine) but the other machine has the oil cup on the front of the head just left of the vertical scale.

I've cleaned the quill on the working machine - not completely happy with it yet as it still sticks after remaining inactive for awhile. I did use 409 to clean it, then wd40 a lot and filled the oil cup with spindle oil.

The other one is more of a problem as the manual lever for the quill will not grab the shaft to move the quill.  I tried tightening the hex head bolt in the lever but it still just rotates around the shaft.  I can move the lever in / out about .2" on the shaft - whether the bolt is tightened or removed.  I cannot simply pull the lever off the shaft (haven't tried lots of force).  I need to figure out what is going on here.  Looks like I'm missing some parts on the end of the shaft.

This is from the 480v machine



This is from the working machine.


Joe


----------



## Izzy

I'll take a look at my machine and see if can find anything that could help, won't be until this weekend though.


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## Izzy

Well I have bit of an unfortunate update... I dropped off my motor at a motor shop and had them take a look at it. It has been re-wound for 460 only but apparently it wasn't done correctly guy said I was lucky I didn't try to start it yet! Also he was saying the bearing bores had been damaged and needed to be re-bored! What are the odds of something like that happening? He said I was looking at 650 to do it all  could I just get a new motor for cheaper here? What are my options at this point? This is such a buzz kill


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## vista_joe

Bummer!  I've not heard of the bearing bores being damaged.  Perhaps the bearings froze up and then spun inside the bores?  Sorry - I don't know anything about availability/pricing for the motor.  I rewound an old (very large) 1.5 hp single phase motor by hand in my younger days and it was a lot of wear and tear on my hands.  I can see why they charge a lot to rewind motors (hopefully they have some type of machinery help).


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## vista_joe

I made some progress on my 480v machine yesterday.  I bought a duplicate motor starter/contactor set on eBay.  That allowed me to do some experimenting without removing the one in my machine and learn about all of the terminals.  I could not find any specs etc. that would help understanding the terminal connections.  I figured out that a previous owner had done some re-wiring in an attempt to get it working and they did it incorrectly.  I corrected the wiring and am now able to use the control panel buttons to start/stop the spindle motor.  I haven't let it run long yet - hope I don't run into a problem with it. 

As a part of doing all this, I am re-creating the drawings so I have a good readable set that matches my machine.  This is a time consuming task but I think it will be well worth it.  It has helped me understand the functioning of the various relays / contactors etc.

The area I have concern now is in the motor driver module for the power feed DC motors.  I do not have any schematics for it and it is  in an enclosed aluminum chassis which makes it difficult to troubleshoot.  Guess I'll eventually have to take it out of the chassis to gain easier access if I don't find another issue that is preventing it from running.  I haven't found a part number for it but it is a Dayton brand.  The number of wires going in/out of this module does not match what the wiring diagram would indicate (7 vs 9).  In any event this is my next area of investigation - to get the power feed motors functional.


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## Izzy

I'm think my feed motor controller is an Allen bradley, its deffinetly different from yours but can't remember right now. 
On the plus side I just scored a bridgeport vice for 40 bucks!


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## vista_joe

That is great - should help cover the motor cost.  Hopefully you didn't have to pay shipping!

I think I figured out the issue of a different number of wires in/out of the feed motor controller.  There is an extra relay external to the controller that performs a function normally done within the feed motor controller.  I think I'm OK there, but I still can't get any power out of the controller.  I have essentially completed the drawings related to the feed motor controller and relays.  Looks like I'm going to take the controller out of it's chassis to troubleshoot.  There are a few other things I have to check first.

My other bridgeport has a different feed motor controller which would have been easier to troubleshoot.  Note the 'creative' fuse someone put on the left side of the circuit board.


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## Izzy

Sorry to revive an old thread but I just recently got the ole Bridgeport up and running and had to chime in and give a big thanks to everyone that helped! I used a 5hp RPC into a 9KVA 220-440 transformer. I wired 120vac directly from the breaker panel to the control side if the machine and everything works! More or less. I found out that my motor controller was bad and changed that out @vista_joe the motor controller in the last picture you posted is the updated version. Now I believe my feed motor is no good. And unfortunately the quill feed motor is no good either but I kinda knew that before I powered it as the motor is cracked right in half. 
I've taken some cuts with it boy does it ever hog some metal! But I'm concerned I may have bad spindle bearing or something of the like. However I've never ran one of these specifically so I'm not sure how loud these are supposed to be. I have a woble on my cutter that I measured to be about .003" the bearing top plate was at about 60°C after an hour of heavy cuts and that seems normal to me. I checked the speeds with a laser tach and my lowest speed in high gear is about 1000 and it should go down to about 450 I don't know if the 2 problems are related. And finally the spindle load meter doesn't seem right it free spins at about 85% then when I take a cute it goes down to about 65%. Thanks again for all the help guys!


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## vista_joe

Izzy,
I'm glad to hear that you have the machine running.  That is a huge step.
What did you finally do regarding your spindle motor?  Replace? Rewire? Ignore?
Where did you find the replacement motor controller / cost?

I have not made any progress on my Series II machines.  The head butt I did with the tail end of the ram disabled me for about 4 or 5 months and I couldn't really do anything. I had severe dizzy spells - even went to a neurologist for tests.  
I also had my gall bladder removed later in 1017 which was another few months recovery.

My shop was so hot/cold I couldn't work much of the time.  I finally just jumped off the deep end and had closed cell foam sprayed under my roof.  I still need to add insulation to the garage doors and seal under them.  At least I can now control the temperature to a 'reasonable' working environment.  While I have the shop 'cleared out' I am going to install LED lights to replace the current fluorescent lighting.  Too many projects...

Hopefully I'll eventually get around to working on the Series II again.

However - as usual - I have some new toys to work with that make priority over the Series II efforts.
I bought a Series I BOSS 5 CNC machine - can run Mach 3.  So learning CNC / Fusion 360 is in my future.
I also bought a Grizzly G0602 lathe and plan to convert it to CNC.  I found a very good conversion example that I'm going to follow: 



  I will use both the BOSS 5 and the working Series II to manufacture some of the required parts for the conversion.

I think the BOSS 5 improvements and the G0602 efforts will be higher priority than the Series II.
I still want the Series II done - but have to prioritize my efforts.  I don't have the energy that I used to have.


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## Izzy

All I did was wire up an rpc Into a transformer and I just gave the machine the original 440 3phase it used to run on. I'm just curious about the condition of my spindle bearings. You said you had one running? Could you post a video of that one starting up and winding down?


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## vista_joe

I think this should have what you want.  Let me know if not...  I cut this from existing video to make it small enough to upload to this site.


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## Izzy

Sounds like yours starts up faster than mine. What's the spindle load meter at when it just free spinning? Mines up around 80-85%...


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## vista_joe

I'll have to check - never looked at the load meter.


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## vista_joe

Ok - I just checked and when up to speed (idling ~1500 - 2000 rpm) the load meter was in the middle of the red section - above 100%.  I don't know what it is supposed to be but that does not sound like a useful value.


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## Izzy

I had asked one other person who has a series 2 and thiers sits at around 20% just free spinning. The load meter is supposed to tell you how much power the motor is drawing. Mine actually dips down to about 60% when I take a cut which seems odd to me


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