# Tramming a vise- the easy way



## 682bear (Apr 4, 2022)

I've read several times on here where it's mentioned how difficult it is to tram a vise on a milling machine, so I decided to do a quick write up in hopes that it may help make this easier...

First, get the vise on the mill table and install the hold down bolts... do not tighten them, just snug them...

Set an indicator up in the quill... or however you would normally use your indicator... zero the indicator on the left corner of the fixed vise jaw, then lock the saddle (to eliminate error from any saddle backlash)...




Then move the table until the indicator is on the right corner and note how far it is out of parallel...




Now it is on the right side of the vise, so you want to loosen the hold down bolt on the right side and bump the vise until the indicator is back at zero...




Now snug (not tighten) the right hand bolt.

Move the table until the indicator is back on the left corner...




 the vise will probably still not be perfectly square, so loosen the left bolt and tap the vise until the indicator is back on zero. Snug the left bolt.




Now move the table until the indicator is back on the right corner...
	

		
			
		

		
	




Keep repeating this sequence until the vise is as accurate as you want it... don't forget to tighten the bolts good when finished, and always double check the tram after tightening the bolts... in case the vise moves while you are torquing them.

I can usually have the vise within 0.0002" or 0.0003" the second time I move to the right corner... the entire process should not take more than 3 minutes... 5 at the most. It's quick, easy, and painless...

I hope this helps someone...

-Bear


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## Winegrower (Apr 4, 2022)

There must be more ways to tram a vise than there are machinists who tram vises.   Your method is good, and if speed is the issue, what I do is move the table left and right a bit while watching the indicator, and tap the vise in the direction that minimizes movement.   It's surprising how quickly this converges.   I like to check the other two axes just to make sure there is not a chip caught somewhere.


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## benmychree (Apr 4, 2022)

Or, just install tight fitting keys in the slots in the bottom of the vise, snugly fitting in the tee slots in the table, should be close enough for nearly any and all work.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 4, 2022)

Here is what I do:

I  lightly clamp the left side of the vise 
zero the indicator on the left side of the jaw as close to the anchor point as possible
 move across to the right side and tap the vise to remove half the difference
 move back to the left side and repeat 2, 3, and 4, 
Lock down the right side and tighten the left side clamps
Recheck alignmnet
The error after steps 2 and 3 arises because the left zero point isn't above the pivot point but amounts to around 10% of the  error before correction.  You can use "Kentucky windage" to allow for the error.  Usually, no more than two iterations are required.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 4, 2022)

benmychree said:


> Or, just install tight fitting keys in the slots in the bottom of the vise, snugly fitting in the tee slots in the table, should be close enough for nearly any and all work.


I use the keys also.  It is close enough for most work bur for precision work, I will sweep the vise.  I habe learned the hard way not to assume alignment.  One little chip can do so much damage.


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## Doug Gray (Apr 4, 2022)

Second the tap as you go methode.


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## Suzuki4evr (Apr 4, 2022)

Doug Gray said:


> Second the tap as you go methode.


I concur


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## homebrewed (Apr 4, 2022)

The need for an iterative procedure arises if the measurement points are not coincident with a pivot point.  So (say) when you bump-zero the indicator when it's on the left side, the right side of the jaw also moves.  On my flat vise the hold-downs are very close to the left and right sides of the vise jaw so I can get to under .001" with just one pass.  That's if I start out with the DTI as far right (or left) as possible.

On the other hand, I have a tilting vise whose hold-downs are significantly further away from where I can place the DTI so it takes a number of passes to get into tram.   It doesn't help that the only way I can mount it on the table is with the jaws parallel to the Y axis, but the hold downs are spaced apart on the X axis.  About worst-case for ease of tramming.  To make it a _little_ easier I usually place a 123 block in the vise and indicate off that, but, still, the measurement points are a significant distance away form the hold-downs.


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## T Bredehoft (Apr 4, 2022)

But if you happen to have a parallel that lets you position the indicator over the hold down  bolts....


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## mmcmdl (Apr 4, 2022)

Tramming the vise should take no more than a few minutes as bear said . My only addition to his post would be , if you have a power feed on the x axis , throw it on and bump the vise while traversing . Pretty simple to dial it in in a minute or so .


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## Chewy (Apr 4, 2022)

I get a kick out of reading this post.  That was me for about 4 years.  Tramming a vice is such "old school".  Nice to know when all else fails. Half the time I did the vise in a couple of minutes, the other half I chased my tail for 10-15 minutes.  The methods above work.  So do the You-Tube videos showing this.
Just bite the bullet and make the keys for the vise (and rotary table if you have one).  Took me about two hours to make  precision fit keys for the Kurt vise and Grizzly rotary table.  It now takes about 60 seconds to place the vise fully in tram on the table.  Most of that time is bolting it down. The tram is .0002 over a 9" precision parallel clamped in the jaws.  I check it prior to doing important work and skip it for run of the mill things.  Either way it hasn't changed. 
Last week I took the vise off and on the table 4 times. Just the way items ended up being held.  Just last week alone by time estimates here, I recovered about 1/4 of the time making the keys and I have been using the keys for a year or better now. 
So, you'll twist, tap, rotate and have a good time, me, I'm going to get a cup of coffee.


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## mickri (Apr 4, 2022)

I was having a hell of a time trying to tram my vise.  As I was trying every method imaginable I began to notice that once I went past the screws holding the jaw to the vise I lost tram by a thou or two towards the back.  Happens on both ends of the jaw.  I don't know if the jaw isn't flat all the way across or if there is something on the vise causing the bow (wrong term probably).  So I only tram from screw to screw.

 I rarely take my vice off of the table.  Can't even remember the last time I removed it.  I will have to retram everything once I get my shop back up and running.  Column, vice and my rotary positioner. 

What's a rotary positioner you ask.  My vice came with a swivel base.  I took the swivel base off of the vice and made a backing plate with the same threads as my lathe spindle.  Now I can put a piece of work in a chuck and easily drill precise bolt circles or mill angles.  I have the X&Y coordinates written down to center the RT under the quill.  With something in the chuck it is above the vise.  With the chuck removed anything in the vise is above the RT.  Not as good as a rotary table but I find it useful.  I don't have a rotary table.  Maybe some day.


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## 682bear (Apr 4, 2022)

mickri said:


> I was having a hell of a time trying to tram my vise.  As I was trying every method imaginable I began to notice that once I went past the screws holding the jaw to the vise I lost tram by a thou or two towards the back.  Happens on both ends of the jaw.  I don't know if the jaw isn't flat all the way across or if there is something on the vise causing the bow (wrong term probably).  So I only tram from screw to screw.



Vise jaws do get worn, especially in the middle, as that is where the vise is used the most. I have an Enco mill vise that has about .002"  wear in the middle of the jaws.

When I get the new surface grinder up and running, I may test it on the Enco jaws.

-Bear


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## mickri (Apr 4, 2022)

This was a brand new vise.


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## compact8 (Apr 5, 2022)

I used to tram the vice with DTI everytime and just very recently, I found that the slots on the table are surprisingly parallel to the X rail. I have always been under the impression that those slots are just good for clamping , not indexing but this is clearly wrong.  To set up the vice I just put a piece of steel plate ( actually a 100 mm guage block ) into the slot and push the end of the vice against it before locking the vice down.  Sweeping the vice afterwards indicates that the difference between the ends of the jaw is about 0.005 mm or 1/5 of a thou which is good for 99% of my work.


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## mmcmdl (Apr 5, 2022)

I guess I'm one of the few who used to keep the swivel base on the Kurt most of the time . As Chewy said above , I've made keys for all the BP accessories . One of my Hardinge indexers is also ground parallel to the centerline so just throw it the chuck and have at it . I sure don't have any issues with having to tram a vise though , just part of the job .


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## homebrewed (Apr 5, 2022)

T Bredehoft said:


> But if you happen to have a parallel that lets you position the indicator over the hold down  bolts....


I don't have a parallel that long, and my vise jaws don't open enough to accommodate one anyway.  I don't know of any vises of that type that could open up enough, since the movable jaw would have to be _over_  one of the hold downs.

It would be possible to make something that would elevate a parallel above the jaws.  A block with a step in it would do the job, assuming it's made precisely eough.  It also would need something to hold the parallel in place under the force of the DTI finger.

Something like that would be easy enough to make, but it doesn't pencil out fo to spend much money on a parallel set when all you'd use is one of them.  But linear support shafting like this would address several of my quibbles and would make the elevation block a trivial part of the whole deal 

On the other-other hand this particiular problem likely will only impact those of us with small mill tables.....


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## epanzella (Apr 5, 2022)

My 6" vice came with a key but I still had to indicate the vice to get it within .001". Since my vice weighs 1oo+ pounds I found that keeping the key from gouging the table was more trouble than it was worth so I removed it.  I can get pretty close just with a machinist square and get the rest in 3 or 4 minutes with an indicator.  Without the key I can put the vice on a piece of cardboard and then pull the cardboard out. The only trouble I ever had was the vice jaws moving a few thou when I tightened the bolts but some sanding in the center of the vice base fixed that.


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## Chewy (Apr 5, 2022)

Compact 8, that is why the keys work so well on a Kurt type vise.  Your picture shows a toolmakers vice.  When I use one, I set it up as you have shown and then check the tram. I'm in the process of making a 10" t-slot guide to drop in & bolt down to use on long projects.  After it is made it will have a 1/32" chamfer on the bottom to handle sharp square corners. 
Mmcdmdl, I don't have any problem with tramming a vise, I'm just lazy!!!  As stated, The tram hasn't changed in the last year, But I still double check all different ways if I'm doing something with a critical dimension.
Mickri, I left my vise on for about a year.  Just no reason to take off. When I did I had way more rust under it than I liked to see. I don't take the vise off just to build muscles! Only to do long plates and built up items that can't be clamped.  95% of my work is in the vise.  So much so that I'm thinking of getting the 5" vise. That will allow me to work 4" stock, which I can't do now between the jaws.
Epanzella, I can sympathize.  If my vise weighed 100lbs, I wouldn't be removing it, I would probably buy another mill!   

And this will start another round of posts, but I'm seriously thinking of covering the whole table with a 1" plate of 6061 and drilling holes for clamps. Making deictated X & Y slots and key positions for the vise and rotary table.  The plate will be keyed to the table so it can be removed and the table oiled. Plug the holes with cutoff screws. I have seen this someplace and don't remember where, but the idea keeps coming back.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 5, 2022)

Chewy said:


> And this will start another round of posts, but I'm seriously thinking of covering the whole table with a 1" plate of 6061 and drilling holes for clamps. Making deictated X & Y slots and key positions for the vise and rotary table.  The plate will be keyed to the table so it can be removed and the table oiled. Plug the holes with cutoff screws. I have seen this someplace and don't remember where, but the idea keeps coming back.


Saunders Machine Works and Tosa Tools both make fixture plates.








						SMW Fixture Plates
					

CNC Mill Fixturing & Tooling Plates for HAAS, Brother, Tormach, Fanuc and more




					saundersmachineworks.com
				





			https://tosatool.com/product-category/modular-subplates/


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## silence dogood (Apr 5, 2022)

Here is another way to tram a vise on a mill that I have not seen anywhere else.  My mini mill is a LMS 3960 so I believe that this will work on a mill of similar type. I found out that the jaws on a mill vise can be taken from the inside and placed on the outside so one can hold larger work. Got this from watching a Blondihacks. So, it got me thinking. Is the flat surface of the column parallel to the X axis? Mounted the vise on the table leaving both screws slightly loose. Put a 123 block between the column and the outside of the vise where the jaw would be mounted. Tightened the X screw enough so there is no light between the surfaces. Tightened the screws on the vise and backed out the X to release the 123 block. Check it the usual way with dial indicator, there was barely any movement on the needle! This was the quickest and easiest way that I have trammed a vise on a mill. Sorry that I don't have pictures. Right now the mill is apart for cleaning and adding the LMS "Tweaks & Enhancements Kit. Soon as I get done, pictures will come, at least some diagrams. Mark


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## Nyala (Oct 30, 2022)

I know that I'm a little late to the party on this but I was checking to see if there were any good posts about tramming that I might have overlooked.  I have watched about every YouTube machinist tram a vise and I have obviously learned a lot.  My last 3 attempted at tramming took only 2 hours, 1.5 hours, and 40 minutes - in that order.  So you can see the improvement.

A couple things that I've learned how to do are; tapping on the right side of the vise to move the needle left, then tapping on the left side of the vise to move the needle even further left; also, when within about .002" on either side, tapping one side .001" moves the other side .010" - this way you are assured another half hour's work to straighten it out.

I'm sure that I can give you even more advise about tramming, if interested.


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## AlfromNH (Nov 27, 2022)

Silly question, where does the word “tram” come from in this context?


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## higgite (Nov 27, 2022)

AlfromNH said:


> Silly question, where does the word “tram” come from in this context?


If you mean definition.... 
	

	







						tram — definition, examples, related words and more at Wordnik
					

All the words




					www.wordnik.com
				



If you mean word origin, I don't have a clue.

Tom


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## bill stupak (Nov 27, 2022)

Tom Lipton method.    




go to 12:30 for a clearer look at the procedure


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## RJSakowski (Nov 27, 2022)

Interesting thoughts about the origin of the word tram.  The term probably derived from trammel although the earliest use of trammel was for a type of net for fishing consisting of three different sizd meshes, the word derived from the Latin for three and mesh.  Later use was for various restraining devices.  The first referenced use of trammel with regard to restraint was from the 16th century and referred to binding up a corpse, possibly using fishing net.  Trammels are used to restrain horses to force them into an unnatural gait.

The connection between restaining devices and tools for measurement isn't very clear.  Possibly because a gauge is used for determining mesh size when making nets?  Carpenters have long used trammel points , otherwise known as a beam compass, for laying out circles and precision  measurements.  The beam compass more than likely was used since humans first began building.  The beam compass has been used for ages by blacksmiths, machinists, and engineers in the same fashion as calipers are used for shorter distances.  From there, the transition to the use of "tram" as a term for making measurements would be fairly short.

All conjecture on my part.


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## RJSakowski (Nov 27, 2022)

bill stupak said:


> Tom Lipton method.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use the keys on my vise but they are narrower than the width of the Tee slot to allow for some adjustment.  For use when high accuracy isn't required, I mount the vise so the keys contact the front edge of the slot.  To ensure contact with the front edge, I use a block of wood between the column and the rear base of the vise. This will get me to better than .0005" over 6".

If I want better alignment, I note which side is closer to the front of the table and loosen that clamping bolt and loosen the other clamping bolt to just past snug as Tom does in the video above.  Then I use his technique to adjust the vise to parallel to  the ways.


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## Parlo (Nov 30, 2022)

RJSakowski said:


> Here is what I do:
> 
> I  lightly clamp the left side of the vise
> zero the indicator on the left side of the jaw as close to the anchor point as possible
> ...


As the original post suggested - fully clamp one side and zero indicator. This keeps that side at zero. Move over and tap until indicator is zero and clamp tight.
No need to tap the vice to remove half the difference - remove _all_ the difference - the original side has not moved.
Send vice back to original position to check, loosen original nut to tap to zero if required.
If using more than 2 clamps tighten them last.


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## RJSakowski (Nov 30, 2022)

Parlo said:


> As the original post suggested - fully clamp one side and zero indicator. This keeps that side at zero. Move over and tap until indicator is zero and clamp tight.
> No need to tap the vice to remove half the difference - remove _all_ the difference - the original side has not moved.
> Send vice back to original position to check, loosen original nut to tap to zero if required.
> If using more than 2 clamps tighten them last.


You are correct.  In that first post, I was thinking about how I tram the vise on the RT mounted on my RF clone.  I  actually use the RT for alignment in that case.  The pivot point is approximately midway between the two ends of the vise jaws so in that case, removing half the difference is valid.  However, when the pivot point is one of the anchor points, removing all the difference is the correct procedure.

In reality, my clamp point on the vise is about two inches forward of the back jaw of the vise so there is a slight movement on that side as well when I pivot the vise. However, for out of tram conditions of less than 25 thou, the movement will be less than a tenth.


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## Charles scozzari (Nov 30, 2022)

Hi, to save time I drilled and tapped 2 - 3/8" holes in the underside of my mill vise and attached a piece of 8" x 1 1/2" x 3/8" CR flat stock under the vice that rides along side of the table to maintain dead "0" so no more tramming. Works great.


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 2, 2022)

I divide the hole size ( 1/2" = 1/4" and so on ) in half and use the center of that hole with a center mark at the center of the work on the rotary table. That works with rounds for any number of holes needed and squares using 4 holes. then divide the holes on the RT to the degree needed. PLEASE  ignore this post. it was meant for another forum, but I couldn't delete it.    Sorry


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## great white (Dec 2, 2022)

didn’t go through the whole thread so this has probably already been described.

I tighten one side and snug the other. Indicator in the quill and tap the snugged side with a brass hammer until both reach zero when checked.

takes me about a minute, two at the most…

I do like the idea of adding a “stop” to the underside so it goes on/off in a trammed position (or close to it).


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 2, 2022)

great white said:


> didn’t go through the whole thread so this has probably already been described.
> 
> I tighten one side and snug the other. Indicator in the quill and tap the snugged side with a brass hammer until both reach zero when checked.
> 
> ...


Hi, When I put the vise back on the table I am careful not to slam it, just light pressure. It has worked well for me. Thanks for the "like".


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## aliva (Dec 3, 2022)

I like the stop plate idea, but I don't want to drill any holes in my $800 Kurt.


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## Huub Buis (Dec 3, 2022)

I have a 80 mm vice and my milling column is flat. I have made a spacer between de column and vice (a piece of square stock go's in the vice). I press the vice against this spacer and tighten the bolt one by one a bit tighter until they are tight. That takes about 1 minute and 9 out of 10 the difference between the alignment right/left is within 0.02 mm.
When I need more accuracy, i also use the tap as you go method.


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## RJSakowski (Dec 3, 2022)

Charles scozzari said:


> I divide the hole size ( 1/2" = 1/4" and so on ) in half and use the center of that hole with a center mark at the center of the work on the rotary table. That works with rounds for any number of holes needed and squares using 4 holes. then divide the holes on the RT to the degree needed. PLEASE  ignore this post. it was meant for another forum, but I couldn't delete it.    Sorry


Select Edit, select all your text and right click and select cut.  type deleted and Save


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## brino (Dec 3, 2022)

Charles scozzari said:


> PLEASE ignore this post. it was meant for another forum, but I couldn't delete it. Sorry


No worries Charles. Brian


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 3, 2022)

RJSakowski said:


> Select Edit, select all your text and right click and select cut.  type deleted and Save


Thank you so much. Thats why I still have a flip phone and my mill and lathe will always be manually operated. Thanks again.


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 3, 2022)

brino said:


> No worries Charles. Brian


Thanks.


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 3, 2022)

aliva said:


> I like the stop plate idea, but I don't want to drill any holes in my $800 Kurt.


I wouldn't either. My vise is a knock-off so it doesn't matter.     Thanks


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## GeneT45 (Dec 4, 2022)

Your Kurt should already have holes in the back for mounting the fixed jaw on the rear of the vise - you could use those...
GsT


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## akjeff (Dec 4, 2022)

These vise tramming threads always end up providing some unique ideas here and there. So far I haven't found anything being more simple and fast as just clamping an Indicol to the spindle loaded with the .0005" indicator of your choice, and just tap it in. Maybe I'm missing something, but this shouldn't take more than a matter of minutes to accomplish, and with tools that are normally already at hand within reach of the mill.


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 5, 2022)

akjeff said:


> These vise tramming threads always end up providing some unique ideas here and there. So far I haven't found anything being more simple and fast as just clamping an Indicol to the spindle loaded with the .0005" indicator of your choice, and just tap it in. Maybe I'm missing something, but this shouldn't take more than a matter of minutes to accomplish, and with tools that are normally already at hand within reach of the mill.


Good Morning, I have had jobs where I had to remove the vise from the table to use my rotary table and then back to the vise and also clear the table for long work for the same job. Thats why I attached the vise stop to realign the vise on the table. It's true that tramming the vise is not all that time consuming but for me it removes that step. I would like to add something that I do when "0"ing my vise is to use the built in mount provided on my Bridgeport head for bringing in the vise rather then use the spindle as a gauge mount.     Thanks for the reply.


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## akjeff (Dec 6, 2022)

Charles scozzari said:


> Good Morning, I have had jobs where I had to remove the vise from the table to use my rotary table and then back to the vise and also clear the table for long work for the same job. Thats why I attached the vise stop to realign the vise on the table. It's true that tramming the vise is not all that time consuming but for me it removes that step. I would like to add something that I do when "0"ing my vise is to use the built in mount provided on my Bridgeport head for bringing in the vise rather then use the spindle as a gauge mount.     Thanks for the reply.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Charles, your vise stop is one of the most clever ideas I've seen on a vise tramming thread. I think it's excellent!


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## Charles scozzari (Dec 6, 2022)

akjeff said:


> Hi Charles, your vise stop is one of the most clever ideas I've seen on a vise tramming thread. I think it's excellent!


Good morning, I'm glad you like the idea and I'm sure I am not the first to try this. This is why this site is so important and we can all learn something new. When I read posts by others I see how many knowledgable people are sharing opinions and help.   Thanks again.


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## Parlo (Dec 7, 2022)

Charles scozzari said:


> Good Morning, I have had jobs where I had to remove the vise from the table to use my rotary table and then back to the vise and also clear the table for long work for the same job. Thats why I attached the vise stop to realign the vise on the table. It's true that tramming the vise is not all that time consuming but for me it removes that step. I would like to add something that I do when "0"ing my vise is to use the built in mount provided on my Bridgeport head for bringing in the vise rather then use the spindle as a gauge mount.     Thanks for the reply.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you have enough height, clamp a key to your rotary table and hold it in the vice.


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