# Rusty Parallels



## neshkoro (Sep 9, 2017)

I built this nice little box to hold some of my parallels. I stained it, varnished it and lined it with felt that I bought from Walmart. A couple of weeks later I was going to use a set of them and noticed that the bottom surface of all of them (the surface resting in the felt) was  rusty. Nothing else in my shop is rusty. At least not to the extent of the parallels. Any thoughts on why this is happening? I've attached some photos.
Thanks,
Bill


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## ch2co (Sep 9, 2017)

Its a real bummer when you try to protect something and the protection ends up harming that something.
I live in a rather dry climate and have little problem with tools rusting unless I leave them out in the lawn sprinkler.
It seems that the felt is your problem. Ether its attracting moisture or has chemical residues (acidic?) that are 
unfriendly to your parallels.  Oil is your friend, coast everything including wooden storage boxes with it. 
I would get rid of the felt or maybe try oiling it?

CHuck the Grumpy old guy


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## dlane (Sep 9, 2017)

Walmart chi felt, ied try coating the felt with way oil and the parellels too


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## neshkoro (Sep 9, 2017)

Thanks for the reply. I read some years ago that folks who mount photos or people that collect coins have to use acid free paper or there will be a reaction. Maybe I have the same issue. 


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## Markkjohnson (Sep 9, 2017)

There is a noncorrosive felt used in silverware boxes this would be better than walmart felt



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## Dave Paine (Sep 9, 2017)

Another vote for the felt having some chemical residue or off-gas reacting with the moisture in the air.

Lee Valley sell drawer liner which is meant to prevent corrosion.  I am using this and so far no issues with the tools.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=68931&cat=1,43456


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 9, 2017)

the parallels can be cleaned up with vinegar or Evaporust


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## Eddyde (Sep 9, 2017)

#1 on it most likely being the felt. Many synthetic materials use acids in their manufacturing process, unless it is properly neutralized, it will remain in the product and off gas for quite some time. Acid vapors can react with moisture in the air and corrode metal.


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## kvt (Sep 9, 2017)

I have also seen where they react with things.   Almost like a magnet for rust etc.   Other item is what was used to glue the felt down. it could also have reacted to the felt causing part of it.  
just glad you caught it early.


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## neshkoro (Sep 9, 2017)

Thanks for all the replays. I'm getting rid of that felt. A little cleanup with some 2000 grit paper will get rid of the rust. 


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## neshkoro (Sep 9, 2017)

That's replys. Not replays!


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## Silverbullet (Sep 10, 2017)

Those fancy Microsoft rags at HF work well with some oil in the rag and laid in the drawers . I use them even on my guns I leave in holsters big no no leaving a gun in a holster unless your sure it's oiled leather.


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## 12bolts (Sep 12, 2017)

Did you glue the felt in? Lots of glues give off acidic fumes


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## neshkoro (Sep 12, 2017)

I used white glue used for woodworking. 


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## 4GSR (Sep 12, 2017)

My last two tool chest redo's, I used Scotch 77 spray adhesive.  Spray the felt lightly, it don't take much, and carefully apply the felt to the drawer.  I also use billiard felt, its much more stiffer than fabric store felt is.  So far, haven't had any issues with rust.  In my steel drawer tool chests, i use shelf liner with the holes in it.  I think its made by Rubber Maid?


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## Cobra (Sep 12, 2017)

neshkoro said:


> I used white glue used for woodworking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just for future reference here's how you make white glue.

White glue is easy to make by combining the right amounts of milk, distilled vinegar and baking soda. Milk contains a protein called casein. It makes good glue, but not in its liquid form in milk. Adding vinegar causes a chemical reaction that turns the casein into a solid.

How to do it? Heat 2 ounces of 2 percent milk and 1 tablespoon of vinegar, but don't let it boil. The mixture will curdle to the consistency of cottage cheese. Pour it through a coffee filter to collect the curds. Add a pinch of baking soda to the curds until you get the right gluey consistency. Remember that when you use it, the glue takes a few hours to dry.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 12, 2017)

Commercially made casein glue has calcium and sodium salts in its formulation. These could be accelerating corrosion under humid conditions.  New versions like Tite Bond II have aluminum chloride, according to the SDS sheet.  Aluminum chloride  is weakly acidic and quite possibly hygroscopic which could also add to corrosion problems.  A suitability test could be done by smearing some on a piece of bright steel and placed in a humid location.

Spray on contact adhesives will soften in the presence of oil resulting in a gummy substance that can work its way through the felt.  

Some epoxy spread thinly on the wood surface and the felt applied as it begins to tack up might be the best choice.


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## neshkoro (Sep 17, 2017)

I think I found the cause of the rusty parallels. I did a test. I bought some new felt and compared it to the old felt. I cut a small piece is each along with a piece of the old felt that I glued to a piece of wood. I placed a small parallel on each of the 3 pieces. After a few days there was signs of rust forming on the glued felt and no sign of any rust on the parallels on the old or new felt that was unglued. Seems the culprit was the white glue. I will leave it testing for a while longer to see what happens. Thanks for all the responses. 
Bill


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## ch2co (Sep 17, 2017)

Great experiment. How long befor testing it did you glue the felt? Just wondering about water vapor coming off of still damp glue.


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## neshkoro (Sep 17, 2017)

About 1 hour. 


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## Dave Paine (Sep 17, 2017)

I am not surprised at the glue releasing moisture in 1 hour.  Could be the felt absorbing some moisture from the glue then releasing the moisture slowly.

I had glued two pieces of wood for a project with Titebond III.    I clamped the joint for about 40 mins or more.  I cleaned off the joint with a scraper.  The glue line was not visible, only the two pieces of wood with different grain.

I left the assembly on my table saw top over night.   The next morning I had a thin line of rust.   Drat.  Easy enough to remove, but a reminder that it takes much longer than cure time for the extra moisture from the glue to dissipate.  Lesson learned.  I now lay assembles down on a piece of plastic on the table saw top.  I use the table saw top since I am constrained for space and it is the largest horizontal space in my shop which is not covered in "stuff".


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## neshkoro (Sep 17, 2017)

We love and learn. I'm going to repeat the test and wait longer for the glue to dry. We'll see what happens!


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## neshkoro (Sep 17, 2017)

Live not love. We love too. 


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## silence dogood (Sep 17, 2017)

neshkoro said:


> I think I found the cause of the rusty parallels. I did a test. I bought some new felt and compared it to the old felt. I cut a small piece is each along with a piece of the old felt that I glued to a piece of wood. I placed a small parallel on each of the 3 pieces. After a few days there was signs of rust forming on the glued felt and no sign of any rust on the parallels on the old or new felt that was unglued. Seems the culprit was the white glue. I will leave it testing for a while longer to see what happens. Thanks for all the responses.
> Bill
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great experiment!   On an earlier forum, another fellow  and I went round and round trying to determine why in some cases steel will rust in felt lined cases and not in other felt lined cases.  It never occurred to us that the common denominator might had been the glue.   I have a felt lined tool box (metal) that I got 4o years ago.  The outside shows rust, but the inside holding tools do not show rust.   This winter, I was thinking of doing the same test as yours except using different glues and see what happens.  Neshkoro, if you want to go ahead and do more experimenting.  Go for it.  Maybe,  this mystery will finally be resolved.  I really want to line my boxes with felt,  it looks so nice.


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## neshkoro (Sep 17, 2017)

I am going to use some different methods to attach the felt; double sided tape , spray adhesive and as someone else mentioned, epoxy. I did recline one of my tool boxes with the same old felt except I did not glue it down. I haven't pot anything back in it yet. 


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## ch2co (Sep 17, 2017)

Epoxy???? It would be very hard to clean it up after testing it. The other adhesives sound OK especially the tape.


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## f350ca (Sep 17, 2017)

I built a couple of chests last winter using wool felt and white glue. Can't recall how long they dried before filling them but no sign of rust. I believe Greshner use white glue on their chests.

Greg


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## woodchucker (Sep 17, 2017)

Markkjohnson said:


> There is a noncorrosive felt used in silverware boxes this would be better than walmart felt
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thats what I used in my Kennedy restore. It is self adhesive and has tarnish inhibitors, which seem to work as well in resisting rust. Not one of my tools shows rust using it.


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## woodchucker (Sep 17, 2017)

I bought mine from Amazon, which is no longer carrying them.
But I did find the same item here:
https://www.voguefabricsstore.com/Fabric-By-Specialty/Anti-Tarnish-Silver-Cloth/  Avail in black and brown, I used brown for the Kennedy ..


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## Chippy (Sep 18, 2017)

I just refelted my Gerstner and used there felt and hide glue,  A little expensive but  didn't want to chance it and end up with a toolbox full of rusty starrett and other higher end tools. Let me know if you need some felt. I have a lot left over. 

http://gerstnerusa.com/replacement-hardware/part-1008-gerstner-green-felt


http://gerstnerusa.com/made-in-usa-products/accessories/whew-glue-kit


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## neshkoro (Sep 19, 2017)

I like the self adhesive idea. 
Thanks


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## whitmore (Sep 19, 2017)

neshkoro said:


> I built this nice little box to hold some of my parallels....weeks later I was going to use a set of them and noticed that the bottom surface of all of them (the surface resting in the felt) was  rusty.



I hope this isn't relevant, but is that an oak box?  Oak and iron is the recipe for black-iron-oxide ink
production, it's possible that unsealed oak has the capability of doing the rust damage all by itself.
The active agent, gallic acid, can be washed away, but normal wood seasoning does NOT remove it.

That's why iron fasteners in oak get black stains: the iron dissolves and diffuses into the wood.


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## neshkoro (Sep 19, 2017)

That's interesting. The box was made from oak but it was stained and varnished. The block in the experiment was unfinished pine. More testing


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## neshkoro (Sep 22, 2017)

Final test: l let the white glue dry for 4 days then placed the parallel on the felt. One day later there was rust! I tried 3M  25 spray adhesive. After a few minutes of drying I stuck the felt and wood together. After 4 days of the parallel sitting on the felt there was no sign of any rust. Spray adhesive it is!


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## Dave Paine (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks for the update.  Useful to know.


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## silence dogood (Sep 22, 2017)

A fabric store called Joanns sells felt squares with a glued backing.  I have used it to line wooden boxes. It's nice to use, just cut to size with scissors, pull the backing off, and press in place.   However, I have never checked it for rusting. Need to do that.


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## neshkoro (Sep 22, 2017)

That's a good idea. That's where I bought the second batch of felt. I did see the adhesive squares too. 


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## neshkoro (Sep 22, 2017)

There goes another test!


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## silence dogood (Sep 23, 2017)

Today, I was talking to my wife about this felt business.  She does professional sewing.   She told me that the best felt is made of wool, but even synthetics can be good.  She then showed me her box that contained her silverware.  Yep, it's felt lined.   Then she went further and told me about a cloth called silvertex or also known as silver cloth.  This is a black cotton cloth coated with a substance to help prevent tarnishing. You use it to wrap your silverware with.  I ask her would it work for wrapping micrometers and other things like that.   She was not sure, but did not see why not.  I ask her where can you get it,  She thought a fabric  store like Joanns.   Looks like another test coming.


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## whitmore (Sep 23, 2017)

silence dogood said:


> Today, I was talking to my wife about this felt business.  She does professional sewing.   She told me that the best felt is made of wool, but even synthetics can be good.


Yeah, wool is great for blotting up small amounts of oil... and (for  buffing ) accept no substitute:
the polyester felts melt with friction, it's just a NASTY material for a buffing wheel.
There might be one or two offerings in wool, but most JoAnn felt is likely to be (?polyester or acrylic).


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## Vince (Oct 1, 2017)

Keep a sheen of machine oil on your tooling and you should have no problems.
The key to this is either use your tooling or inspect it periodically.
Any tooling I don't use very often, I spray with silicone


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## rrdstarr (Oct 1, 2017)

Auto-sol is a great cleaner for tool steels.  I use it to clean up old wood plans and knives.  A good coat of BoeShield T-9 works to protect them.

```
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=50252&cat=1,43415,43440
```


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## EPAIII (Oct 2, 2017)

Why do you have to glue it at all? Cut it to size and drop it in. When it starts to float up, the tools will hold it down.


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## neshkoro (Oct 2, 2017)

True. Just going the extra step. It's really not necessary. 


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## EPAIII (Oct 2, 2017)

Yes, a coat of oil will prevent rust, but things like unfinished wood and felt will absorb the oil, leaving your tools unprotected. 





Vince said:


> Keep a sheen of machine oil on your tooling and you should have no problems.
> The key to this is either use your tooling or inspect it periodically.
> Any tooling I don't use very often, I spray with silicone


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## neshkoro (Oct 3, 2017)

The culprit is the white glue. Spray adhesive (maybe not all kinds) works to hold the felt in place. It's nice when the felt is secured and you don't have to keep  putting it back on place. 


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## maker of things (Oct 3, 2017)

I've been thinking about felting some of my tool drawers.  The rubbery drawer liner stuff isn't impressing me too much.  I'll glue mine down too as I don't like the cloth moving around.  McMaster has wool felt up to 1/2" thick https://www.mcmaster.com/#felt/=19ng6r1 but it sure aint cheap.  Going to check out that silver cloth as well. https://www.amazon.com/Anti-tarnish...8&qid=1507036721&sr=8-6&keywords=silver+cloth

I can't help but thinking that "Rusty Parallels" might have been the Car Talk Bridgeport operator


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## Alan H. (Oct 3, 2017)

Some points to consider:
1. Felt has been used for years on lathe way wipers.  It holds oil well and is used for that purpose.  My research into felt for way wipers indicates the felt used for that application is wool.
2. Felt bought in a fabric store is very likely not 100% wool, it's too expensive.  It is most likely a fiber blend including a very high percentage of synthetic fibers.
3. As white glue dries it gives off the water.  White glue can be somewhat acidic.  
4. Oak has a high content of tannins (tannic acid).  Wood has a pH of 4 to 6 - means it is slightly acidic and not neutral.
5. The wood boxes that I have with parallels in them have a polymer spacer to hold the parallels and they are not touching the wood.
6. My parallels are stored on edge and always coated in oil


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## neshkoro (Oct 3, 2017)

I don't understand the "car talk Bridgeport guy". 


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## Buffalo20 (Oct 3, 2017)

I use to work on the boilers in the Elmer’s Glue facility in Bainbridge, NY. Watching 1000s of bottle an hour going down the process line. It was an interesting process, from the “cooking” of the glue, to packaging and labeling. I was there in the final days, when the whole operation was sent to Montreal, to a duty free zone, where the whole process was done by Indian and Pakistani refugees. Sad to see a local business that made all of the Elmer’s Glue products, closed down, I haven’t bought an Elmer’s product since.


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## maker of things (Oct 3, 2017)

https://www.cartalk.com/content/staff-credits


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## ch2co (Oct 3, 2017)

maker of things said:


> I've been thinking about felting some of my tool drawers.  The rubbery drawer liner stuff isn't impressing me too much.  I'll glue mine down too as I don't like the cloth moving around.  McMaster has wool felt up to 1/2" thick https://www.mcmaster.com/#felt/=19ng6r1 but it sure aint cheap.  Going to check out that silver cloth as well. https://www.amazon.com/Anti-tarnish...8&qid=1507036721&sr=8-6&keywords=silver+cloth
> 
> I can't help but thinking that "Rusty Parallels" might have been the Car Talk Bridgeport operator


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## ch2co (Oct 3, 2017)

It's good to see a fellow car talk listener. I used to have a friend who loved talking about car talk, but anymore, whenever I mention car talk, all I get are blank expressions of "what's this guy talking about."  Click and Clack still rule.


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## maker of things (Oct 3, 2017)

...and don't drive like _my_ brother.


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## RandyM (Oct 3, 2017)

Any chance we can get this thread back on topic, please.


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## maker of things (Oct 5, 2017)

So from what I could gather, the silvercloth is cloth embedded with silver with the intent of preventing sulfur from reaching the metal and requires the piece to be entirely surrounded .  Not sure that will do a lot for steel, or be very handy in a toolbox.  The felt at McMaster in 1/4" thick isn't too horrible in price.  I may look at 2 layers per drawer with the top layer cutout for each tool.  With the two pieces bonded together they probably would be rigid enough to not move around without having to stick them down to the box.


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## neshkoro (Oct 5, 2017)

1/4" thick is pretty thick. Some of the drawers are only 3/4" deep. The 1/4" would take away 1/3 of the space!


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## silence dogood (Oct 5, 2017)

maker of things said:


> So from what I could gather, the silvercloth is cloth embedded with silver with the intent of preventing sulfur from reaching the metal and requires the piece to be entirely surrounded .  Not sure that will do a lot for steel, or be very handy in a toolbox.  The felt at McMaster in 1/4" thick isn't too horrible in price.  I may look at 2 layers per drawer with the top layer cutout for each tool.  With the two pieces bonded together they probably would be rigid enough to not move around without having to stick them down to the box.


 I did more research on the silver cloth and you are right, the cloth has sacrificial silver (like zinc on steel) to keep the sulfur getting near the silverware.  If there is moisture in the air, the sulfur could become sulfuric acid which could corrode the iron.   According to one site on preserving  silver, there is some sulfur in wool.   I am coming to the conclusion that felt is  okay, but a thin coat of oil with a packet of silica gel would work in the long run.  That is my 2 cents worth.


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## whitmore (Oct 5, 2017)

maker of things said:


> ...The felt at McMaster in 1/4" thick isn't too horrible in price.



It is common to use good wool felt for oil wiper inserts, and that's probably the best use of quarter-inch material.
Wool is a great wick for light oils,  I've seen bearings with a wool felt oil reservoir.
If you want a drawer lineer, the acrylic felt at your local fabric store is probably good (it's what Gerstner recommends).  It's
certainly more economic.

Wasn't there an old recommendation to put a lump of camphor into a tool box, to retard rust?
I've never known anyone to actually do it...


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## KBeitz (Sep 25, 2018)

I worked in a dye textile room for years. Most white glue is nothing more that starch and water.
Most textile goods is dyed with acid dyes. The water in the glue liquidize the acid dye causing
the rust. Most factory's don't take the time to fast the goods so the dye can not come back out.
Wash you felt with baking soda to neutralize the acid.


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## stupoty (Sep 25, 2018)

neshkoro said:


> I built this nice little box to hold some of my parallels. I stained it, varnished it and lined it with felt that I bought from Walmart. A couple of weeks later I was going to use a set of them and noticed that the bottom surface of all of them (the surface resting in the felt) was  rusty. Nothing else in my shop is rusty. At least not to the extent of the parallels. Any thoughts on why this is happening? I've attached some photos.
> Thanks,
> Bill
> View attachment 241268
> ...




Might be acidic, perhaps the dye or a cleaning process in manufacture.

Stu


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## higgite (Sep 26, 2018)

What a let down. I saw the title of this thread and thought it was going to be about a character in a grade B movie about super hero machinists or some such.
"Also starring Chuck Keyes, Chip Breaker and Minnie Mills. Coming soon to a theater near you."

Tom


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 17, 2022)

Well let's resurrect this thread...

Why? I could just say "why not" but I'll provide a better argument and one related to my career in part as a designer of healthy indoor environments, and a building scientist. Oh and because I am about to buy a nice mildly pair of rusty parallels.. see below.

As much as possible we want to control temperature, the humidity and thereby control the dew point to prevent condensation. When we can't control the temperature and humidity as much as we'd like we want to minimize and control water vapor. So prevent vapour entry, and lock water vapour into a hard to escape matrix so that the dew point within our box, can't be reached. 

Best practices:

Make wood box with tight fitting matched 2 deg taper lids
use real wool felt liner 
use only pH neutral PVA adhesive 
seal and finish the box exterior with vapour resistant finish
leave the wood box interior bare of any finish

Bonus safety precautions will be list near the end of this post. Haha a youtube type teaser to make you read to the end.

Why? 

Wool both repels and adsorbs moisture. Wool will repel "bulk" moisture, aka droplets, mist, rain etc but it will adsorb water vapour and lock it into the protein matrix of the hair shafts until equilibrium is reached or until the storage capacity of the fibers is reached. Only real wool is going to provide this benefit, not your cheap synthetics purchased off of amazon. This is why wool thickness matters. The more material the more ability to absorb water vapour.

Wood too acts to absorb and retain moisture to establish equilibrium within the closed environment. Softwood has more open cellular structure and can retain more moisture than hardwood. The sealed box exterior becomes the prison walls, and the bare interior becomes the doorway to allow moisture access to the entire volume of wood. The entire volume of the wood becomes a large prison that impounds water vapour. 

Wood and wool are basically acting in the same manner in which desiccants materials work. This is a good thing, BUT can also be a bad thing. A cigar humidor uses the same principles to keep cigars moist. Humidors are "charged" with bulk moisture to saturate the matrix, which then releases vapour slowly based on temperature, humidity and vapour pressure.  

SO, we need to keep and handle our boxes so that they always remain in a depleted state, wanting to absorb tons of moisture. 

Never leave the box open, especially in humid locations. Once you have the tool out of the box close it right away to prevent moist air from entering and adding unwanted moisture to the wood and wool matrices. When you're done using the tool put it back into the box and seal it tight. Preferably move box to controlled environment with heating and air conditioning. If you're able and have loads of instruments and high end tooling build a tool  cabinet and put a small dehumidifier in the cabinet. Make sure the dehumidifier drains to the outside of the closet.

GLUE: 
If you must glue use a book binder's PVA adhesive that is pH neutral. These adhesives are buffered to assure that no acid can leach out and harm adjacent materials. As an artist I use Lineco brand because I know it's the best and will never harm my artwork, so it wont harm my steel. I always have it on hand too. 

I take too more precautions with my really fine stuff, because it's in an unconditioned garage. I wipe my items down with WD40 corrosion inhibitor. I hate oil saturated wool felt and overly oily instruments. The oil inhibits the desiccant properties of the wool, and it's damn messy. the corrosion inhibitor is far cleaner method. 

Then I use desiccants. I used to use large pouches but now I use beads in 3D printed puck like containers. I found the part of thingieverse.




If it cant rust it goes in a box. If it doesn't matter it goes in the drawer of a metal tool chest where it is at the mercy of the environment.

Okay, I'm going to buy these parallels to practise precision grinding. 





They don't look like they were that good to begin with, but they're about  1.5" x 1" x 6" which is a nice size for me to practice grinding on my surface grinder before I tackle anything too important. Oh and I can buy these cheap, and get them mailed to me cheaply too.

Now when I'm done I'll try to have the most accurate beautiful parallels around. I'll want to protect them like I protect other fine instruments. In a case. That case will be kept indoors in a controlled environment where the humidity level shall never be high enough to objects to be at the dew point.

As a back up I shall be using the belt and suspenders approach with all the methods I listed above... because I know my brother will take these tools out to the attached garage where the environment is less controlled. It can be humid in the summer and cold in the winter. It is "semi-heated" meaning when occupied the electric space heater is going, but generally all chunks of metal will be only slightly above ambient outdoor air temperature. I will not worry about them at all. He knows how to keep boxes closed and to return instruments to their place when done using them


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