# Changing Headstock Oil



## ddickey (Nov 1, 2017)

Thinking it might be a good idea to change oil in my lathe. There are three oil site glasses. Headstock, apron and another below the headstock not sure what exactly that one is called, threading gears maybe.?
I've always added Velocite 10 when needed.  I thought I read somewhere recently about adding way oil to the apron.
Can someone set me straight on this and suggest a good oil to use?


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## ddickey (Nov 1, 2017)

I think someone asked why so many duplicates. I got an email that there was a response but I can't see it now.
When I posted this message I got an error so I thought it didn't post. I went over to Microsoft Edge and tried a few times there. Same message.
Now I see it was posted four times.


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## 4GSR (Nov 1, 2017)

If your apron has an oil pump that provides lubrication to the ways, then use way oil.  If it just for lubricating the gearing and clutches in the apron, then Velocite 10 or equivalent to be used.  If you have been using way oil in the apron, continue to do so, won't hurt a thing.


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## ddickey (Nov 1, 2017)

No pump.
Velocite 10 used everywhere except on the ways themselves.
Thanks Ken.


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## mksj (Nov 1, 2017)

Most headstocks of newer lathes take a minimum of an ISO32 gear or Hydraulic oil, Velocite 10 is a bit thin as it is an ISO 22. I would not use it unless that is what the manufacture specifcally recommends, what lathe is this going into? Also, most newer lathe with closed gearboxes and carriage take an ISO68 gear oil, so Velocite 10 would be too thin to be used. You want to use the correct viscosity, too thin or too thick in particular in the headstock is not good. Some older carriages may also specify way oil, usually an ISO 68 like Mobil Vactra 2, this is because of its tackiness sticks to the gears as they swing out of the oil (they stay coated). Unless you have an older lathe, like an old SB, then a regular gear oil will be fine.

The most commonly used ISO32 oil usually used for this  application is Mobil DTE 24 or DTE Light
The most commonly used ISO68 oil usually used for this  application is Mobil DTE 26 or DTE Heavy Medium


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## ddickey (Nov 1, 2017)

It's a 2000 Acra-Turn 13x40.
I have never seen a manual for it.
DTE Light and Heavy Meduim then. Sounds good to me.


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## Bob Korves (Nov 1, 2017)

I also have a Chinese made 13x40 lathe (Kent KLS-1340A).  When I got it I looked at all the manuals I could find for these machines, and found some differences in recommended lube.  For gear head and feed box ISO32 or ISO64 (edit: ISO 68) spindle oil or hydraulic oil.  For apron, ISO32, ISO68 gear or hydraulic oil, or Vactra #2.

I first went with the ISO32 (actually AW32 hydraulic oil) in the gear boxes and Vactra #2 in the apron.  The gears seemed to make more noise with the ISO32 oil than with the noticably thicker black factory gunk that was in it when I got it.  The next time I filled the gearboxes, I mixed ISO32 and 68 together, making something like ISO46, and allowing me to get rid of the leftover ISO32.  That quieted things down a bit.  I have stayed with the Vactra #2 in the apron, it is said to coat the gears and help to protect them, as well as being wet for startup.

Another thing I learned from reading all the manuals is that the worm and worm gear and the half nuts on the back side of the apron do not get lubed unless you do it manually.  They are not in a particularly easy place to get to.  You can use a light grease like NLGI 1, or way oil, on both the worm gears and the half nuts.  I use either one, but it is important to lube them regularly, or they will fail.  My Kent lathe came with spare worm and worm gears, and an extra set of half nuts.  I  wonder why???


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## ddickey (Nov 1, 2017)

I don't see any ISO 64 options but 
ISO 68 is the viscosity of way oil.
Maybe try an ISO 46 AND way oil in the apron.
Any brand suggestions?
Is hydraulic oil okay? Much cheaper than Mobil DTE.


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## mksj (Nov 2, 2017)

If you look at just about every lathe manual in the 14x40 sizes, and all the Grizzly lathes, they indicate ISO32 for the headstock and ISO68 for the gearbox and carriage. This is consistent with probably 90% of the manuals I have seen for this size machine. The gears in the carriage and gearbox are slow speed and they are quickly lubricated (splash) with any rotation.  I would not chase yourt tail on mixing blends etc., anything you put in will be much better than what you had. Hydraulic oil can be used for gear oil in this setting, I am not aware of any significant difference. In my 1340GT I use the DTE 24 in the headstock, DTE 26 in the carriage. Since I have an open gearbox with a total loss pump oiler system, I use way oil (Vacuoline 1409, ISO68) for this gearbox. If it was a closed gearbox I would use DTE 26. Any name brand should be ok, there can be some issues with some gear oils used in cars. Most people go to farm and tractor supply/industrial supply and get hydraulic/gear oil without high pressure additives.


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## Bob Korves (Nov 2, 2017)

ddickey said:


> I don't see any ISO 64 options but
> ISO 68 is the viscosity of way oil.
> Maybe try an ISO 46 AND way oil in the apron.
> Any brand suggestions?
> Is hydraulic oil okay? Much cheaper than Mobil DTE.


ISO 68 is correct (senior moment...) Post edited.


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## ddickey (Nov 2, 2017)

No problem Ken.
And reading my response there I didn't mean I was going to mix any although it looks like I was saying that.
Most of the hydraulic oil I've seen have additives (anti wear, corrosion & foam) added to it. It's the detergent you don't want. 
Is that correct?


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## mksj (Nov 2, 2017)

Correct, no detergent as it keeps particle suspended and "should" be used with an oil filter system. In genreal you also want to avoid what is known as EP "Extreme Pressure" additives which bond to the surface of metals forming a sacrificial film. These are usually used with sliding gears, like a differential.  There are  concerns of EP additives attacking yellow metals often used in bushings/gears, but most current EP additives contain inactive sulfer which is less reactive. Also the inactive EP additives requires elevated temperature to be activated, this does not occur in low temperature gear trains. I have spoken with two oil manufactures (Amsoil and Mobil), they claim that their EP addives do not attack yellow metals, but there can also be other problems with excessive wear with softer metals. Best  to avoid an EP oil. You do want anti-foam, anti-corrosion and anti-wear properties. I did go to a high quality synthetic oil in my last gear head mill, and it ran cooler, gained about 50 RPM on the top end (less friction) and stayed clear for a long time. But like in cars, probably just extends the usable time before oil changes vs. a good gear quality oil. It also is less viscous at low temperatures. As far as Gear Oil vs. Hydraulic Oil, there are some formulation differences, gear oil is designed to take more extreme gear on gear pressures (so often will have EP additives). Hydraulic oils, lubricate gears and often are used in a mixed gear/hydraulic system, but more designed for anti-foaming, anti-corrosion and lack of compressability. At least that is what I read. In the lathe, it is a low stress environment, any oil is better than no oil.

The Difference Between Gear Oil and Hydraulic Oil
http://www.differencebetween.net/ob...ifference-between-gear-oil-and-hydraulic-oil/
EP additives
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28958/ep-additives-effects
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29031/extreme-pressure-additives


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## ddickey (Nov 2, 2017)

Thanks MKSJ


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## Bob Korves (Nov 3, 2017)

There is also a bit of leeway with viscosity.  In a usually cold shop you might want a lower viscosity oil than in a hot shop.  Just don't get carried away with it, and consider the year around ambient temperatures.  Greenland is different than Equador, and some shops have heaters and coolers, and some do not.


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## ddickey (Nov 3, 2017)

My shop can be 40 degrees unti lI put my small heater on which gets it up to 50°-55°.


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## NortonDommi (Nov 3, 2017)

General purpose hydraulic oils are formulated for use actuators, transmissions and motors,(Hyd.). They have anti-foam and anti-corrosive additives and good lubricationg properties. I have a Chinese 14x40 lathe and a mill/drill both of which use ISO32. I have replaced with ISO46 with 10% Morey's Heavy Duty Oil Stabiliser and both are noticably quieter. If I am going to use a machine with a gearbox I usually turn it on at low speed and go and have a cup of coffee.
  Neodinium magnets plced around the inside of the gearbox are good too.
  I have used Morey's for 40+ years and swear by it, temperature readings alone on hydraulic equipment are proof it works. I love Synthetics,(Amsoil in particular),but standard quality oils with Morey's come pretty close in performance and are way cheaper.


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## gwade (Nov 3, 2017)

I use this in my 19x60 Summit lathe gear boxes.  It is what I use in my Massey F. tractor's gear box which is combined with the hydraulics.  I believe it is ISO 46 or SAE 20.  Available at Tractor Supply for less than $50
*Traveller RENEW Tractor Fluid, 5 gal.*


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## ddickey (Nov 3, 2017)

Was thinking a few magnets might be a good idea.


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## ddickey (Nov 4, 2017)

NortonDommi said:


> I have replaced with ISO46 with 10% Morey's Heavy Duty Oil Stabiliser and both are noticably quieter. QUOTE]


Looks like Morey's is now Lucas.


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## NortonDommi (Nov 5, 2017)

Aussie company Supacheap sells Lucas stuff, sits on the shelf right next to the Morey's and Morey's South Pacific still has an office and wharehouse over the harbor so can't say one way or another.
  Lucas was known as the Prince of Darkness by riders of quality British iron.


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## ddickey (Nov 18, 2017)

Guys,
I can't get the drain plug out. I thought it might be short enough but no.


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## ddickey (Nov 18, 2017)

Taking off the pulley is pretty straightforward I guess. I can put a punch mark lined up with the key slot so i know I get the tension correct when I put it back on.


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## ddickey (Nov 18, 2017)

Decided to use a hand pump instead PITA. Everything is changed now so good to go.
One question I have is the driven pulley, the one in the pick above turns hard. It is smooth but there seems to be a lot of drag. I thought it might just be heavy oil but after I sucked it all out there was no change. I have not tinkered much with this lathe so not sure if that is normal.
There is zero axial & radial play that I can detect.


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## ddickey (Nov 18, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Another thing I learned from reading all the manuals is that the worm and worm gear and the half nuts on the back side of the apron do not get lubed unless you do it manually.  They are not in a particularly easy place to get to.  You can use a light grease like NLGI 1, or way oil, on both the worm gears and the half nuts.  I use either one, but it is important to lube them regularly, or they will fail.


Bob, I do not know how to get into the feed rod without disassembly. There is a nut/bolt that has a cover on it (see pic) the bolt has a small hole drilled into it. I wonder if it is a port to shoot grease or oil in there.


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## NortonDommi (Nov 18, 2017)

Hello ddickey,
                       I hate seeing stupid things like the placement of that drain plug. Looks like a rainy day project next oil change to put a new drain plug in somewhere it is easy to get at perhaps with a pipe to make it spill free. With the drag on the input shaft was every engagement out of gear? You could,(belts off), wrap some cord around the pulley and turn with a spring balance,calculate the torque required to maintain turn, find out the bearing sizes and ask your local bearing factor what preload range for that size bearing. If it was too tight you would have had a lot of heat and some nasty noise developing pretty fast.
  I like your belt tension system, far superior to what I have.


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## ddickey (Nov 18, 2017)

Hi NortonDommi,
Yes there were no engagement of any gears. It was one of those that doesn't feel right moments. Thing is I've ran like that for a year or two now. I don't notice any heat unless I'm running at max speed then it's only very warm not hot. The gears overall though looked to be fine condition.


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## 4GSR (Nov 18, 2017)

Be sure to try to wipe up all of the crud that collects in the bottom of the headstock.  At least, get to that you can.  If you don't, your no better off than you were when you started.


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## NortonDommi (Nov 19, 2017)

Must be O.K. then. I don't know if you have ever rebuilt a vehicle diff but they have quite a bit of drag on the bearings when turning over by hand even after they are blueprinted and the bigger the vehicle the harder to turn. Taper bearings need some preload to work properly and there is oil drag as well which is why there is often a call to measure turning torque.
  If they were too tight you would have been doing major repairs before now aye?
  I was in the middle of watching an auction on Trade Me when typing the above and should of said Taper Bearings need to be preloaded to a load above running load while turning, backed off then adjusted to final setting again while being turned. Most heavy load applications have a few lbs/inch to avoid skidding the rollers but every application differs which is why I mentioned turning torque. Bearing factors are the best people to talk to if you have no information.
  My comment about too tight stands. I appologise if I have upset anyone by saying taper bearings NEED some preload.


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## ddickey (Nov 19, 2017)

No I haven't. They looked like deep groove ball bearings to me. Here's a pic of my headstock if anyone is interested.


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## 4GSR (Nov 19, 2017)

ddickey said:


> No I haven't. They looked like deep groove ball bearings to me. Here's a pic of my headstock if anyone is interested.
> View attachment 247309


Yuck!!!  The oil that is


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## 4GSR (Nov 19, 2017)

As for the bearing preload being too tight or not, as long as that part of the housing does not run hot, I wouldn't worry about it. IMO.


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## ddickey (Nov 19, 2017)

Okay.
We'll let her buck then.
By the way I'll run for a month or two and change out the oil again. I threw in a magnet too.
The apron and gear box oil was very clean however.


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## Dabbler (Dec 1, 2018)

Bob Korves said:


> Another thing I learned from reading all the manuals is that the worm and worm gear and the half nuts on the back side of the apron do not get lubed unless you do it manually. They are not in a particularly easy place to get to. You can use a light grease like NLGI 1, or way oil, on both the worm gears and the half nuts. I use either one, but it is important to lube them regularly, or they will fail. My Kent lathe came with spare worm and worm gears, and an extra set of half nuts. I wonder why???



Bob, a good friend of mine once bought a brand new Leblond lathe.  He completely tore it down, and checked every little thing before running it.  He noticed the same thing with the half nut and the feed gear.  The half nut dovetail wasn't properly machined as well.  so he fixed that and installed cap head oilers for both the half nut and the cross feed takeup gear with drip tubes to direct the oil to the correct places.  40+ years later the lathe is still like showroom new.

Yesterday I was talking to a millwright who has worked on lathes full time for 26 years now.  He makes a strong case to put the way oil on the ways and oil the gears and worms with AW32, 46 or 68 [EDIT: Hydralic oil AW 32 is preferred here].  Apparently the way oil traps grit, metal filings and dust and suspends it into a great lapping compound - the result is greatly increased wear in the apron.  He's rebuilt a few machines that completely wore out because of this.  You need the oil to wash away the particles....  I've always loved sacrificial oiling systems, but now I know why!


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## ddickey (Dec 1, 2018)

Hydraulic oil. Is that what you mean when you say AW?


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 1, 2018)

Yes, in fact we used AW-46  as the bearing oil on the large main bearing of one of our cable stranders,  as per factory recommendations.  All the hydraulic units I've even seen , used AW-32. The additives in Hy oil causes cancer, at the very least, skin irritation. I treated it with caution.


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## BtoVin83 (Dec 1, 2018)

I use exclusively in my lathe a mixture of sperm whale oil, harp seal oil and rendered fat from California condors.


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## Bob Korves (Dec 1, 2018)

ddickey said:


> Hydraulic oil. Is that what you mean when you say AW?


AW32, AW64, etc, are hydraulic oils with anti wear additives.  There is also plain hydraulic oil, without the additives.  Hydraulic systems have submerged gears, bearings, and sliding surfaces.  Gee, just like a lathe...  Hydraulic oils also have additives to stop cavitation, and to keep the oil from breaking down.  It is also quite inexpensive


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## Dabbler (Dec 1, 2018)

It turns out that for my model we use AW32 Hydraulic oil, because we do machining in our garages at 45 degrees F, and the heavier oils are too thick at that temperature.

The vendor that imported the machine does an oil change when they sell this machine, and they use AW 32 before they deliver it.  That's how I found out!

(sorry I didn't say "hydraulic" in my above post - I'll edit it!


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