# Monarch EE worth the price??????



## twraska (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm tire kicking for a 10"X40" or similar sized lathe.  Found lots on Ebay from Chinka-chinka, LaBlonde, South Bend, etc and some Monarch EE's.  The latter being at times more expensive than new foreign stuff, and seemingly the most expensive of the 'American iron'.  Are they that much better to command the price?  Or was I seeing asking price and they will come down with a little dickering?

I did find a Monarch EE at $10K, it looked to be in *excellent* condition but it wasn't under power at the time.  It was an early 60's model, 8000 hours on the hour meter, ex-gov unit with taper and a steady rest.  I didn't see it but owner said he had a 6 jaw chuck for it, no other tooling.  What y'all think?  Should I go back and get him to power it up or can I find something a lot less expensive if I keep shopping?  He did offer a 30 trial, and the owner is good for his word on that part.  It is close to me and I could pick it up so moving cost would be very little.

All replies will be appreciated!


----------



## OrangeAlpine (Feb 10, 2013)

I have no experience with the Monarch EE, but have used Monarchs.  They are great machines, but this seems to be the 10EE's moment in time and they are priced accordingly.  All the American heavy iron was terrific and any example (say an "ordinary" Monarch) in decent condition will probably perform to a level the general hobbiest (especially a noob) has little need to attain.  A 10EE would not be worth the price to me, knowing that a "lesser" model would be all the lathe I would ever need and could be had for a fraction of the price.  YMMV.

It is human nature to think that better results can be attained with better equipment.  Cameras are a good example.  Back in the 60's and 70's, all the shutter bugs wanted a thousand dollar Nikon, not realizing the two hundred dollar SLR they had was more camera than they could effectively utilize.  I knew a guy that stopped at a gun shop after a trap shooting session and bought a $2000 dollar shotgun because my 14 year old son had outshot him, using a $150 20 ga. Mossberg with a Poly choke.  My son outshot him the following week, just like before.  

Same with machine shop tools.

Bill


----------



## george wilson (Feb 10, 2013)

Actually,Hardinge HLVH's bring more money than Monarch 10EE's. Might be the complexity of the drive on the Monarch. The HLVH is not as great a lathe as the EE,but it does wonderful work,and is relatively easy to work on. I have an HLVH. It has a small selection of threads compared to the EE,and less of a speed range. I wish the lowest speed (130) was much lower. The HLVH is intended for smaller work,as is the EE,really,but the HLVH is the easiest lathe to use that I have ever seen. I have a larger lathe for bigger work,but it seems that,in the type of work I am asked to do,I seldom use it. The last paid job I did do on the 16" gap bed lathe was 24" in diameter,and just barely swung in the gap. Fortunately,the gap piece went back exactly straight and in line. Some of them don't.

I bought an EE a few years ago,but sold it as I am getting too old and creaky and just didn't feel like rebuilding the drive to a modern unit.


----------



## DMS (Feb 10, 2013)

It's a good chunk of change, but if it's a late model, with all the accessories, I could see $10k. I would not spend that money without seeing it run though.

I purchased my 10EE for about 4k, but it's an older model (1956 as I recall) with the electron tube drive that scares lots of folks off. The guy who moved it for me (who also buys/sells used machines) said he could have gotten 6k for it, but keep in mind you almost always pay more through a dealer.

The think about the 10EE is that it is a very stout lathe, but the work envelope is not huge (12.5 swing, 20" between centers, a rare few units with a 30" bed). If that works for you, they are great machines. I still don't know if I would pay $10k. It may be more attractive at $7-8k


----------



## george wilson (Feb 10, 2013)

Nobody I know has paid $10,000 for an EE. Not that they aren't worth it,but they are just very complex lathes that I think many don't want to try to deal with. They do pay that much,and a lot more for an HLVH. Actually more than twice that much for a late model. Mine is a 1964,and I think it would go for about $13,000.


----------



## twraska (Feb 10, 2013)

DMS said:


> It's a good chunk of change, but if it's a late model, with all the accessories, I could see $10k. I would not spend that money without seeing it run though.
> 
> I purchased my 10EE for about 4k, but it's an older model (1956 as I recall) with the electron tube drive that scares lots of folks off. The guy who moved it for me (who also buys/sells used machines) said he could have gotten 6k for it, but keep in mind you almost always pay more through a dealer.
> 
> The think about the 10EE is that it is a very stout lathe, but the work envelope is not huge (12.5 swing, 20" between centers, a rare few units with a 30" bed). If that works for you, they are great machines. I still don't know if I would pay $10k. It may be more attractive at $7-8k



I forgot to put in my OP that I did just get a 25"X120" Lodge & Shipley for the big stuff (mostly longer shafts 1-2" diameter on farm equipment).  I'm looking for something for the smaller items and a little more 'user friendly'.

Second thing I forgot to add was I have a couple of friends who are machinist at work.  They can do some work for me on the weekends and evenings but they don't have machines of their own, so I'm needing a machine better than my capabilities.


----------



## OrangeAlpine (Feb 11, 2013)

The 10EE is renowned for its ability to work to "tenths" and is the reason so many of them were manufactured.  Do you need that kind of precision?

When you ask the question, "Is it worth the price?", your really asking is "Is it worth it to me?"  Only you can answer that question.  The first step is to determine if you need its unique capability.  If Yes, you've pretty much answered the question.  If No, then you should start comparing it to the selection of lathes that can satisify your needs.

Bill


----------



## twraska (Feb 12, 2013)

OrangeAlpine said:


> The 10EE is renowned for its ability to work to "tenths" and is the reason so many of them were manufactured.  Do you need that kind of precision?
> 
> When you ask the question, "Is it worth the price?", your really asking is "Is it worth it to me?"  Only you can answer that question.  The first step is to determine if you need its unique capability.  If Yes, you've pretty much answered the question.  If No, then you should start comparing it to the selection of lathes that can satisify your needs.
> 
> Bill



OrangeAlpine,
Thanks for your reply.  I hear you on the value to me, I guess what I'm trying to determine is what are the 'extra' capabilities of a Monarch EE over other brands out there????  i.e. why is a 50 year old one more money than a 25 year old of another brand which is more than a brand new JET???  

I don't want to spend more than necessary but I don't want to buy 'X' only to fine out in a month it won't do what I need and should have bought 'Y' for a couple of grand more.  I just don't have the experience to know what the capabilities of different models are.  

Now if we were talking tractors or combines or cotton pickers I could tell you the quirk of each model made in the last 50 years!  And I'd tell you I'm running 30 year old tractors because they get the job done for less money than new stuff.


----------



## DMS (Feb 12, 2013)

You've gotta compare apples to apples. This is a toolroom lathe; they are the fine wines of the machining world. A better comparison would be between a 10EE and a Hardinge HLV/HLVH or clone. The Hardinges seem to go for more used lately than the 10EE. For an import take a look at 

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Super-Precision-EVS-Threading-Collet-Lathe/SB1008

or 

http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-x-40-3-Phase-High-Precision-Toolroom-Metal-Lathe/G0740

So, yes, you can get a new lathe for cheaper than a used 10EE or Hardinge HLV, but you would be hard pressed to find a new lathe in the same class for less than a used 10EE or Hardinge.

It does go back to the question, "what are you making?".


----------



## twraska (Feb 13, 2013)

DMS said:


> You've gotta compare apples to apples. This is a toolroom lathe; they are the fine wines of the machining world. A better comparison would be between a 10EE and a Hardinge HLV/HLVH or clone. The Hardinges seem to go for more used lately than the 10EE. For an import take a look at
> 
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Super-Precision-EVS-Threading-Collet-Lathe/SB1008
> 
> ...



We repair tractors, farm and heavy equipment so it may be as simple as cutting some threads on a 1-2" shaft or building up and turning down such shaft to within 020".  Or,,,,, it may be making some engine, transmission or other part that is no longer available & needs real tight tolerances.  Or cutting a worn shaft down and making an undersize bushing to fit it.

Again, I'm not the best machinist that will use the machine.  I have some friends that will do some work for me, they just don't have a machine of their own.  I want to get enough machine to do the job.  I've asked them but each prefers the machine he has at work and some are on very nice (can we say expensive) machines!

From what I've gathered, the EE or Hardinge are very high quality machines and capable of very tight tolerances.  I also gathered that the EE can thread almost any pitch that is out there?  Either would be capable of producing almost any part, no matter the tolerances (with the proper machinist of course), that will fit in the machine?  Are these fair statements?


----------



## OrangeAlpine (Feb 14, 2013)

I think so.  As stated earlier, I have no experience with the 10EE, but my general impression is if your men cannot make the required part on one, you need different men or a machine other than a lathe.  A different lathe would be of no value.

Now I think you can tell us if the Monarch EE is worth the price.  I also think your answer is going to be "Yes".

Bill


----------



## twraska (Feb 14, 2013)

OrangeAlpine said:


> I think so.  As stated earlier, I have no experience with the 10EE, but my general impression is if your men cannot make the required part on one, you need different men or a machine other than a lathe.  A different lathe would be of no value.
> 
> Now I think you can tell us if the Monarch EE is worth the price.  I also think your answer is going to be "Yes".
> 
> Bill



I've been working on the seller, trying to get a break on the price or some tooling to sweeten the deal.  I'll let y'all know how it comes out next week.

Thanks for all the replies!


----------



## Cal Haines (Feb 25, 2013)

twraska said:


> We repair tractors, farm and heavy equipment so it may be as simple as cutting some threads on a 1-2" shaft or building up and turning down such shaft to within 020".  Or,,,,, it may be making some engine, transmission or other part that is no longer available & needs real tight tolerances.  Or cutting a worn shaft down and making an undersize bushing to fit it.
> 
> Again, I'm not the best machinist that will use the machine.  I have some friends that will do some work for me, they just don't have a machine of their own.  I want to get enough machine to do the job.  I've asked them but each prefers the machine he has at work and some are on very nice (can we say expensive) machines!
> 
> From what I've gathered, the EE or Hardinge are very high quality machines and capable of very tight tolerances.  I also gathered that the EE can thread almost any pitch that is out there?  Either would be capable of producing almost any part, no matter the tolerances (with the proper machinist of course), that will fit in the machine?  Are these fair statements?


Based on what you've said, I wouldn't think that a 10EE would be a very good choice as your only lathe.  They are designed for relatively small, high accuracy parts.  Not all 10EEs can cut metric threads without changing the end gears.  The "Inch/Metric" models can cut both inch and metric threads, but many older models can't.

_Cal_


----------



## promaster60 (Mar 3, 2013)

I have a 1976 EE metric/english  great machine i still use my Monarch model 61 more ! I think 10,000 is to much for no tooling  and you definitly need to run it thru high and low speed ranges If you get one a little newer with Metric / english  Cap.


----------



## Rick Berk (Mar 12, 2013)

I would suggest looking around a little more, I bought a pristine 10EE in southern Indiana 3 years ago for $5,000 and he was happy he got it sold. Machine shops are still dieing in this country.


----------



## Tom Griffin (Mar 12, 2013)

Before you buy a Monarch EE for a home machine shop, you had better know what you are getting into. They are very heavy machines, around 3500 pounds so you need to be sure you can move one. They are also very powerful machines with motors anywhere from 5HP to 10HP and all sort of voltages, so you need to be sure you can power one. They are also extremely complicated machines, so if something breaks, you'll need to sure you can fix it not to mention afford the parts.

If you are willing to spend 10K, the Hardinge HLV-H would be a much better choice. They weigh around a ton so are easier to move, most have a 1HP motor (WAY under rated) so they are easy to power and parts are readily available, although still pricey. There is also a lot more tooling available for the HLV-H on the used market. I bought mine new in the 80's and I wouldn't consider owning anything different. Once you've cut a thread on an HLV-H, you'll know why.

Tom


----------



## george wilson (Mar 24, 2013)

Nice HLVH,Tom!! I wish mine was a newer model like yours is. Mine's a 1964. They are marvelously engineered to be extremely versatile,yet simple to operate. I liken mine to driving a sports car. I don't know if the 10EE would have the light touch on operating the apron's X travel because it has a huge,heavy apron compared to the HLVH. But,it has a much larger hand wheel,too.


----------



## Tom Griffin (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks George, I have a lot of hours on that lathe.

I've used both and everything about the EE is much heavier than the HLV-H, which is both good and bad. In my opinion, the Hardinge is a much easier to use and more versatile machine for the home shop than the Monarch.

Tom


----------



## purplepicker (Mar 27, 2013)

Hello I'm Cecil. New here as of today.  I live in East Tennessee.
 I found out yesterday that I have been gifted a 1953 Monarch 10EE which I will pick up tomorrow and try to wedge into my small shop.  The Monarch is a base model.. which means that it did not come with thread cutting or taper attachment.  It has the original 3 jaw chuck,  a bison 4 jaw, the original  collet nose (no drawbar or closer), and a phase II Aloris wedge type size C block with 4 tool holders.  Although there is no leadscrew and no gearing  to support threading there is a feed rod and the apron and crossfeed auto feeds work fine.I have operated the machine and there seem to be no issues as to operability.
I have an ancient 15 inch Cisco that I use for heavy threading and a 9 inch jet that I have converted to CNC.  With the Jet I can cut any thread pitch from 10 tpi up to several hundred tpi with no restrictions on the pitch.  This has allowed me to reproduce strange one-off threads from 19th century guns.  So the lack of threading on the Monarch is not a deal-killer, especially since it was a gift.
I assumed that the nose piece was for 2J collets but upon closer examination the opening at the front of the nose is 1.686 inches with no taper and the back-bearing diameter where the key come in is 1.431 inches.  I was thinking of making a handwheel drawbar and trying to find some collets to fit but I cant imagine how the closer would work without the normal taper at the mouth.
I'm now thinking I might make an adapter that would fit into the nosepies where the original collet went and machining the inside of it for a 5C collet.  I already have a 60 piece 5C set and a 5C drawbar that I could adapt to the Monarch.
I will probably get yelled at for blasphemy but I am already thinking about how to put servos on the Monarch in such a way that it will be completely restoreable to original configuration if desired.
I can't imagine a much better combination than a 10EE with unlimited threading and taper capability, but that's way down the road.


Thanks for letting me aboard.


----------



## Cal Haines (Apr 5, 2013)

purplepicker said:


> Hello I'm Cecil. New here as of today.  I live in East Tennessee.
> I found out yesterday that I have been gifted a 1953 Monarch 10EE which I will pick up tomorrow and try to wedge into my small shop.  The Monarch is a base model.. which means that it did not come with thread cutting or taper attachment.  It has the original 3 jaw chuck,  a bison 4 jaw, the original  collet nose (no drawbar or closer), and a phase II Aloris wedge type size C block with 4 tool holders.  Although there is no leadscrew and no gearing  to support threading there is a feed rod and the apron and crossfeed auto feeds work fine.I have operated the machine and there seem to be no issues as to operability.
> I have an ancient 15 inch Cisco that I use for heavy threading and a 9 inch jet that I have converted to CNC.  With the Jet I can cut any thread pitch from 10 tpi up to several hundred tpi with no restrictions on the pitch.  This has allowed me to reproduce strange one-off threads from 19th century guns.  So the lack of threading on the Monarch is not a deal-killer, especially since it was a gift.
> I assumed that the nose piece was for 2J collets but upon closer examination the opening at the front of the nose is 1.686 inches with no taper and the back-bearing diameter where the key come in is 1.431 inches.  I was thinking of making a handwheel drawbar and trying to find some collets to fit but I cant imagine how the closer would work without the normal taper at the mouth.
> ...


Hi Cecil,

Welcome aboard!

It sounds like you have a manufacturing model 10EE, mostly used as second operation lathes instead of as tool room lathes.  Some were equipped with turret attachments.

I'm not sure what sort of spindle nose you have.  A 5C spindle nose was a common accessory for a 10EE, but that doesn't sound like what you have.  If possible, please post some photos.

You can get a D1-3 5C collet chuck and back plate from http://www.cdcotools.com/ for about $180 (plus shipping).  I haven't seen one, but I've had good reports on them.  I'm planning on buying one at some point.

In the future, it's best to start a new thread for something like this.  If someone were searching for information on a lathe like yours they would have trouble finding it buried in a thread like this.

_Cal_


----------

