# Lathe Tooling



## guitarpro1324 (Jun 15, 2016)

Hey everyone I just bought a 12x36 enco. Just a quick question, where should I buy my tooling? I have an aloris bxa tool post and I believe the holders are 3/4? I'm going to be using this lathe for making pool cues mostly but will chip away at some metal from time to time. Hss or carbide? I think I'm realizing that most people just grind their own hss tooling right? 

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## Chipper5783 (Jun 16, 2016)

Welcome, you'll find lots of things to do with that lathe.  You will wonder how you every got along with out it.

HSS is probably a better bet for pool cue type material - and is fine for most metals as well.  Before purchasing tooling, confirm the holder size, and where the center height of the lathe is relative to the largest tool.  You have to be able to get your tool bit down to center height.  If the tool is low, no problem, just shim it up.  If it is too high, then things get more complecated (still not a big issue, you just have to cut the tools down or cut your tool holders.


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## kenscabs (Jun 16, 2016)

The regular BXA holders are 5/8" but they do make a special 3/4" for the BXA.  That said there's no reason to buy the largest cutter that'll fit your tool holder.  Like David said HSS will give you the sharpest edge but will require you to do your own grinding and honing.  You can start with some simple 3/8" brazed carbide bits to make some chips.  There is a dealer that makes HSS indexable inserts.  These could be honed razor sharp I'm sure.


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## intjonmiller (Jun 16, 2016)

You can use 1/4" tools in your lathe and toolholders if you want. The main reason to use the maximum size is for maximum rigidity in challenging materials or tasks, including heavy cuts. None of that is advisable until you have experience on more moderate materials and cuts. 

I am far from the most experienced guy on here (under 100 hours on the lathe) but I can say with confidence that not all hss is created equal. I have some old stuff that is far better than others. In particular I have been most impressed with (in order): Firth Sterling Circle C, Rex AAA, and MoMax. There are currently several large lots of these on eBay. One such lot will last a very long time in hobby use. Once you try to grind that Circle C stuff you'll understand better.


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## intjonmiller (Jun 16, 2016)

Oh, I meant to mention that 3/8"-1/2" seems like a good range for you to focus on. More affordable than larger ones but still large enough to take advantage of the power and rigidity of your lathe, easier to grind, and more flexible in terms of tool height for different cutting geometry.


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## guitarpro1324 (Jun 16, 2016)

So with hss should I just get some blanks and learn to grind my own?

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## mikey (Jun 16, 2016)

Inserted carbide tools will hog wood off really fast but I agree that a properly ground HSS tool will likely finish better. You'll be sanding the cues anyway but a finer finish will save time.

I would also go with 1/2" HSS tooling and yes, learn to grind your own tools.


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## intjonmiller (Jun 16, 2016)

There are a number of excellent YouTube videos on the subject including ones from Tom Lipton (Oxtools), Tom's Techniques (different Tom), and Halligan something something. 

Also read the book Manual of Lathe Operations and Machinists Tables, published by Atlas back in the day. I've read 3 or 4 books on the lathe and that's the best one, regardless of age. It's discussion on the theory of metalwork is priceless. Every metal cutting tool (other than plasma, oxy-acetylene, and water jet) is a cold chisel. You have to understand what is happening at and in the hundredths of an inch in front of the blade. Great explanations. Let me know if you need a link and I'll find it.


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## intjonmiller (Jun 16, 2016)

Oh, also those lots I mentioned on eBay include bits that are already shaped. They'll probably need to be sharpened and honed, but the basic geometry is already there.


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## GLCarlson (Jun 16, 2016)

Get a trephining tool holder (or make one).  The Diamond toolholder works fine- they make both RH and LH versions. Easy to grind -one face, they provide a fixture- cuts wood, metal, whatever. Grind the face, then hone with a few strokes on 2500 grit paper to put a small radius on the edge. Maybe a five minute job to grind the first time, then a few seconds after that to resharpen. Face and turn with the same setup.  Haven't used or ground a conventional toolbit since I bought a Diamond...about 20 years ago. Just set it on center and go. Mostly use 1/4 square cobalt HSS, but for hard steel (4140PH for example) a quarter inch round HSS tool will get you a finish you won't believe.


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## guitarpro1324 (Jun 16, 2016)

So I bought this lot off of eBay. I will use these to practice my grinding and honing. Paid 45 for the lot...good deal?

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## Tozguy (Jun 16, 2016)

Add me to the Diamond tangential tool holder fan club. As mentioned in post no. 10 the 1/4 in bits are very easy to sharpen.

http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid


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## Splat (Jun 16, 2016)

I gotta admit... I love my Diamond Toolholder, which is a tangential holding system. Soooo easy to grind a fresh sharp face using the jig. I tried my hand at tool grinding, and still do when I need something the tangential can't do, but it's like night and day. My grinding has never been able to get anywhere near as good. Yes, you should learn how to grind your own tools, but for the majority of common lathe work I don't think you're necessarily "cheating yourself, as some guys would say.


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## Andre (Jun 16, 2016)

Inserted wood turning tools were all the rage a few years ago, but their fame has died down for the exception of some turners who turn highly figured woods where HSS just won't hold up. Usually they are round in profile. You could easily make a holder for these wood turning carbide inserts.

Oh, and I also do like tangential tool holders. I made a small one and use it often, but I don't think it would produce a good finish in wood. Too small of a nose radius, maybe a round toolbit holder would be better.


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## John_Dennis (Jun 16, 2016)

I was reading and watching some videos about the Diamond Tool holder.  Did I understand correctly that they are made of cast Iron?  

Has anyone tried to make one of these?


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## Charles Spencer (Jun 16, 2016)

So, you're from Texas, you're 26 years old, your user name is guitar pro, and you make pool cues?

Young man, it sounds like you spend too much time in honky tonks.


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## guitarpro1324 (Jun 17, 2016)

Charles Spencer said:


> So, you're from Texas, you're 26 years old, your user name is guitar pro, and you make pool cues?
> 
> Young man, it sounds like you spend too much time in honky tonks.


Haha actually I think country music is the devils work....I never touch the stuff. 

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## intjonmiller (Jun 17, 2016)

The tangential tool holder and diamond tool bit is a cool design, but they are phenomenally expensive for a design that is over a century old. There are a number of sites and forum posts detailing the ways people have made their own, and the grinding jig. Once my mill is set up in the coming weeks, and I get to the point of being comfortable with my developing skills, I intend to make at least one. I have a couple dozen 3/16" square cobalt blanks so it seems silly to not to do it. 

I think that seems like a great deal for that kind of quality old tool steel. You can't compare the price per bit with the usual import stuff. I'm not the usual "everything imported is terrible quality and everything made here is excellent" kind of guy, but there's no question that the generic import hss is not like the real stuff. I'm sure you'll get *many* years of service from that small investment.


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## CraigB1960 (Jun 17, 2016)

I grind my own HSS blanks when needing a special cut.  But most of the time I use the indexable HSS inserts and holders from Arthur Warner Co.  Simply a great working system for the hobbyist.  When the inserts get dull, just remove and hand hone the top of the insert....good as new.

Provides excellent finish.  

http://www.arwarnerco.com

No affiliation, just a very happy customer.


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## mikey (Jun 17, 2016)

I recalled seeing a reference to HSS tip geometry for wood someplace and it turns out one table recommends 15-20 degrees of side relief, 20 degrees of end relief and 30 degrees of side rake. No mention of back rake or nose radius. 

These angles suggest that wood requires a very sharp edge (duh!) to cut well. The lack of back rake, if intentional, suggests that the entire cutting load is intended to be borne by the side cutting edge and not the leading tip/corner. 

After thinking about this, I think I would try 30 degrees of side and end relief, 30 degrees of side rake and 5-10 degrees of back rake to shift the cutting load to the front 25% of the cutting edge. I would also put a 1/32" nose radius on it to improve finishes. I'm willing to bet this tool would cut hardwood really nicely. Personally, this is a tool that I would put a mirror finish on, honing with translucent arkansas stone in the final step.


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## intjonmiller (Jun 17, 2016)

I am NOT a woodturning expert, as I've never turned a single piece of wood. But I have read about two basic techniques which require different tool geometries: cutting and scraping. That's been tucked away in the back of my head as the first things to research when I'm ready to turn wood on my metal lathe. Also the highest speed on a metal lathe is still somewhat slow for turning wood for a good finish, but for those of us without room or budget for both machines it is doable.


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## guitarpro1324 (Jun 17, 2016)

A common practice with building cues is using taper bars and your power feed. The only thing I will be using hss is for facing, boring and parting. Even if I were to offset the tail stock and do a conical taper I would still use a router. 

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## mikey (Jun 17, 2016)

guitarpro1324 said:


> The only thing I will be using hss is for* facing, boring and parting*. Even if I were to offset the tail stock and do a conical taper I would still use a *router*.



Well, this does make a difference.


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## GLCarlson (Jun 17, 2016)

John_Dennis said:


> I was reading and watching some videos about the Diamond Tool holder.  Did I understand correctly that they are made of cast Iron?
> 
> Has anyone tried to make one of these?


LOTS of plans on the net. Just search tangential tooling. Fairly easy to build, probably 3-5 hours of work, maybe a day worst case. Build vs buy is the usual trade-off; a machinist can make pretty much any tool he needs- the question is whether it's worth time time if an alternative (purchase) is available.

If I were manufacturing these, I'd investment cast 8620 or something similar. That process can deliver a near net shape to around 5 thousandths, so finishing would amount to minor clean-up, tapping, and heat treating. Casting is a common process for gear blanks,  steel tooling,  stuff like that; the metal is "cast iron", I suppose- it's cast, and it's got some iron in it.  Not, however, "cast iron" as that term is commonly used (meaning a carbon content above 2% or so, and otherwise predominantly iron and a bit of silicon).  A lot of plastic, glass, and aluminum tooling (molds) is done that way; I know one boutique foundry that's made a worldwide business of casting exotic steels. (Really exotic- the amount of iron as an element was under 50%... weird stuff. ) My early 90's Diamond does not seem to be classical cast iron.


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## BGHansen (Jun 17, 2016)

My son turns chop sticks on a metal lathe (with a taper attachment) using a router as the tool holder/tool bit.  He uses a 1/4" or 3/8" dadoing bit; straight sides but cuts with the flat bottom.  It gives a really nice finish, don't have to spin the lathe at warp speed since the router is turning the bit at 10,000+ RPMs.  It does throw a lot of chips though!  We use a shop vac on the cross feed to pick up most of the mess.  We wear hearing protection with the router and shop vac blasting away.

For steel I'm generally pretty lazy and go with carbide inserts line TNMG-321's.  As mentioned above, I get a better finish with HSS.  I have BXA's on my three lathes which are 10", 12" and 14" lathes.  Use the 1/2" shank 5-piece tool holder sets from CDCO or Shars.

Bruce


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