# VFD's: Huanyang (eBay) vs AC-Tech SMVector, Teco, Hitachi, etc...beyond 3hp



## jimbojones132 (Mar 24, 2014)

Hi folks

I seen this topic covered before on an 'academic' basis...but I was looking for feedback on a more practical level. Essentially, I'm looking for feedback from people that have actual used multiple brands of VFD's and particularly if they have compared 'brand name' models again the (eBay) Huanyang-branded ones.

So that we can jump right in to the heart of the matter, I consider the following concepts already apparent and therefore not needing to be re-stated:
1) " you get what you pay for" - this concept is very clear in my mind and I'm not looking to be cheap and in fact, all the VFD's I already own are only 'brand name'

2) "import" comments: I doubt that almost ANY VFD doesn't have some 'import' components and it'll simply a fact of life so no sense in splitting hairs about where things are sourced

3) opinions, opinions, opinions.  I've got plenty...but I REALLY want to hear some facts. Actual bench-testing results would be GREAT!

My specific interest is this:  I only have single phase 220v available and Teco & AC-Tech VFD's all have models to go up to/do not exceed 3hp rating on this type of input power. However, I may need to get up to 5HP output if I buy a new lathe.

1) On brand-name VFD's, if you want more than 3hp output, you need 3 phase input power.  However, Huanyang VFD's claim to provide 4 and 5 HP output capability while still on single-phase input power. I have read that their 5hp model is simply just a 'badging' ploy and people claim to have tested them and they cannot provide actual 5hp output power.   I am therefore ALSO concerned that the 4HP model's capabilities are 'overstated'. 

2) People typically recommend on de-rerating the Huanyang VFD's by up to 50% rated capacity...which means a 4 or 5hp VFD of theirs is really only 2/2.5 HP useful if you want it to be 'reliable'.   Is this actually the case? If so, does that mean my only option is a rotary phase converter to get enough output power?!?  Am I missing another brand or option?


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## vettebob (Mar 24, 2014)

You can use larger 3phase name brand VFDs on single phase. Derate Them by 50% put your single phase across phase 1 and 3. Sometimes you have to place a jumper between phases 1 and 2 to fool the vfd into believing there is 3 phase power input. There are a few exceptions.  The Larger teco N3 3 phase does not work well with single phase input in constant torque but works fine in v/hz mode. If you go with a larger 3 phase unit I like the Hitachi wj200 line. When you decide to go to a larger motor contact your supplier or the manufacturer for the proper VFD for your application. Bob


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## jimbojones132 (Mar 24, 2014)

I hear you re: upsize the VFD to 3-ph input model, then derate by 1/2.  This puts me in the 10HP range and approx $1K+ (I'm in Canada so indeed it's going to be closer to $1.5K).  For $200 the Huanyang looks like attractive but again...no idea if it can live up to its claims.


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## Ray C (Mar 25, 2014)

At the core of these things is a microprocessor and I belive the most common one is made by Mitsubishi.  You'll find that most VFDs use that part at the core and many brands have "clone" boards inside them -the Huangyang being a clone.  Given this, quality of components comes into play -you get what you pay for.  Teco, Hitachi, Delta and the units sold by Automation Direct are known to be pretty good and I have a few of them.

Old too soon and smart too late... I've discovered it's best to get a particular brand and stick with it.  That way, you don't need to learn different programming interfaces.

The only time you need to derate units is when you get above 3 HP.  5 & 7 HP needs to be derated about 25-30%.  Above that, you really should be using the correct VFD preferably with 3 phase input.  If budget allows, just buy 3 HP units even for your smaller motors.  This gives you the option of re-using it for other purposes.

So, the fact is, I have Huanyuang, Delta, Automation Direct -and another brand that escapes me at the moment... -all ranging from 1 to 3 HP and I use them all at rated power and they ALL work fine and have done so for 3 years.  I personally find RPC way too much messing around and the last thing I need in my shop is another 500lbs of mechanical equipment that needs service -or heaven forbid, need to be moved for some reason.  VFDs are cheap.  If you stick with a name brand and get the unit that serves your needs (constant torque or not) it will work fine.  My friend has a food processing company that uses probably 100 various VFD units and about 1-2 go bad per year.  It's a commodity item...

Ray


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## AlanR (Mar 25, 2014)

jimbojones132 said:


> I hear you re: upsize the VFD to 3-ph input model, then derate by 1/2.  This puts me in the 10HP range and approx $1K+ (I'm in Canada so indeed it's going to be closer to $1.5K).  For $200 the Huanyang looks like attractive but again...no idea if it can live up to its claims.


For me the choice would be clear. I'd get the much cheaper $200 unit and try it out, it will protect itself against overloads. If it doesn't work as you like save it for another time and then spend the big bucks.


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## vettebob (Mar 25, 2014)

The Hitachi wj220-055 7.5 hp constant torque 10hp v/hz mode $550  new on ebay right now
Hitachi wj220-075 10hp constant torque 15hp v/hz $650 new on ebay right now
You can also look at Wolf Automation, and Automation Direct for other brands $750 or less.
The biggest cost on vfds are the capacitors they are the life blood of the vfd. 
For $200 I doubt you will get high quality capacitors and ibgts. 
There is a industry wide problem with cheap and counterfit capacitors causing problems in everything electronic.
Going up 25% in size may not work for you. It takes 1.73 times as much single phase current to provide the same watts of energy as 3 phase power so going up only 25% if you use your motor near it rated hp the vfd will fail early or give your over current faults.
The recommended method for sizing a 3phase VFD being used on single phase is take the motors FLA (amps at full load) double that then find the appropriate size VFD.
example  5hp motor 13.8a x 2 = 27.6a I need a VFD which will output 27.6 amps
There is a added benefit to using the larger 3 phase VFD. It will with the appropriate braking resistor provide superior stopping power when you need to stop a large rotating force fast. Bob


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## rdhem2 (Mar 25, 2014)

Once again I have to agree with 'ol Ray C, Vettbob has some good points also.  Largest single phase drive I run is a 5hp Allen Bradley on a vertical bandsaw.  Runs great, no problems.  But who built it?  Rockwell, who owns AB?  I doubt it.  Hitachi?  Thats what I heard but can not prove it.  I have been told that the majority of brand name VFDs are Hitachi on the inside.  I know SqD Telemecanique (Tele) was that way for a while until they developed their own small HP units.  From what I have seen Hitachi builds a pretty bullet proof drive and I have heard nothing but good about TECO but never used one.

I'll be honest, I spent my life fixing things and now would rather use the stuff then work on it.  I have no interest in any CHINAMAN product for many many reasons.  I will not fix the `trade unbalance by myself but I will try.  I don't want the hassles and freight costs of sending stuff back and forth.  If I can not afford the cost I will find a different hobby.  I do it right or not at all.  That's OK, my wife doesn't understand either, and *****es about it all the time too.  Its just me.

You are correct also in saying you will not find an all USA made unit.  I doubt if all the small pieces parts are even made in the US.  But in the long run, support USA made product.  All six of the drives I run say *AB* or *SqD Tele* on the outside and I have never had a day of regret.  I just keep shoveling out the _*SWARF!*_


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## jimbojones132 (Mar 25, 2014)

The only time you need to derate units is when you get above 3 HP. 
- indeed, the point of this thread is how to have power above 3 HP (actually, 5HP)

If budget allows, just buy 3 HP units even for your smaller motors.
- motor in question is stated as being 5 HP and not other need mentioned

Above that, you really should be using the correct VFD preferably with 3 phase input
- again, I've already stated I don't have 3 phase available for input

All good, logical information...but not applicable.


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## Ray C (Mar 25, 2014)

jimbojones132 said:


> The only time you need to derate units is when you get above 3 HP.
> - indeed, the point of this thread is how to have power above 3 HP (actually, 5HP)
> 
> If budget allows, just buy 3 HP units even for your smaller motors.
> ...



Perhaps the glass is always half empty...

In the applicable category was:  "5 & 7 HP needs to be derated about 25-30%"
Also applicable was the brand names "Delta, Hitachi and Automation Direct" that I have personal experience with.


Ray


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## vettebob (Mar 26, 2014)

Here is a link to Hitachi guidelines for using 3 phase invertors on single phase other manufacturers probably have similar documents.  Bob http://www.hitachi-america.us/suppo.../AN032404-1_Rev_A_Sizing_for_Single-Phase.pdf       if the link doesn't work here is the the pdf version 
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment _Sizing_for_Single-Phase.pdf


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## chrishoag (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm sure AC Tech brand is a lot better bargain than some Chinese made drive on eBay. AC Tech is built in Massachusetts. AC Tech is owned by a German company.


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## jimbojones132 (Mar 3, 2015)

I've already bought 2 AC Tech VFD's for a greatly reduced price. Unsure if the Chicom ones are nearly as good but frankly, don't care for the low prices I paid  (actually was 1/2 of Chicom prices). Having worked flawlessly, I couldn't be happier.

Configured the heck out of them....even set up an entire remote control panel for 1 of them with customized features including variable speed (is single speed belt-drive), spin-up/slowdown modification, E-Stop w/abrupt slowdown, and Jog.  I even calibrated the vector compensation and can Jog a belt-driven milling machine @ 3Hz/86rpm so that I no longer have to turn the pulley by hand to find the R8 keyway mark.

Only thing left to do is figure out how to connect a remote display; I have the display on the VFD itself calibrated to represent the RPM of the machine...but I cant see it since it's in an enclosure.  I've got room left on the panel for a small LED display and spare cabling to carry a signal...but just don't know what type of LED display I need and how to program the VFD to output the values.


Any help?


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## chrishoag (Mar 4, 2015)

What's the model # of your AC Tech drives?


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## jimbojones132 (Mar 4, 2015)

ESV112N02YXB 
ESV152N02YMC 

If you're ready the entire thread, I know that neither of these are capable of the power I initially quoted; I am on the hunt for an up-to 5hp 3 phase lathe and wanted to get my info in place so I could find an appropriate VFD during my search. The 2 VFD's above are used for smaller motors.

I know that AC Tech sells a 'remote panel' for these but that's not what I want; As stated earlier, I've got control panel already built with all of the functionality I want...only thing missing is a LED to tell me what the current (estimated) RPM is.  

FWIW - I know the VFD can't actually measure RPM but you can change the display to output approx. RPM and you need to figure out the conversation value to get it to be representative.  I initially estimated what I thought the compensation value should be...then dialed it in with a optical RPM gauge. Results are quite good...no more than 1-2% out across the entire RPM range (no-load).


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## mksj (Mar 4, 2015)

Choice for 5Hp single phase input is quite limited. Other than the Haunyang VFD version,  AC Tech and Lenze  include  single phase input for this Hp. Both make good VFDs according to others, I currently use Hitachi.
AC Tech (Lenze) SFC series SF250Y 208/240 Volt 1 or 3 Phase input HP = 5  KW=4.0  Current Output 17.5  Must be the Y version, the SF250 is 3 phase input only
Leeson SM Plus IP20 VFD 200-240V 1&3PH INPUT Hp = 5  Manufacturer Part Number:174444.00
Price is $600-700 vs the Haunyang $225

If it is a hobby, then the Haunyang may work just fine, but having done a recent install with one, I am unimpressed by the build quality and long term durability.

Correct on the VFD display of RPM, but it is scalable so you could calibrate the RPM and you know the nameplate RPM at 60Hz. I am not sure if the accuracy improves using the sensorless vector mode and also some of the motor adjustment parameters. Not that a few % matters. It may be cheaper (and easier) to buy an inexpensive (~$15) RPM display that works off a hall or optical sensor as the VFD displays are soldered to the board these days.


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## Joe in Oz (Mar 5, 2015)

I have several brands of VFD currently in use, including Siemens, EuroDrive, Telecamit and another that escapes me right now. Then there are four Hunayang and 3 HengTai's (MUCH cheaper than Hunayang), Two of the Huanyangs are 3kW / 4HP and I've used them for maybe five or six years regularly. None have ever failed. I've fitted the missing circuit components for braking resitors and fitted exernal resistors for emergency stops to both of them.
Hope that helps in your decision.


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## GLCarlson (Mar 5, 2015)

jimbojones132 said:


> Hi folks
> 
> I seen this topic covered before on an 'academic' basis...but I was looking for feedback on a more practical level.



I use VFDs for smaller stuff (1-3 horse, TECOs, they're fine and an easy, low-cost solution). But when I get to a spot where the manufacturer of the VFD wants me to do something I can't -like supply 3 phase power- it seems to me that a reasonable approach is to swap out the motor. Especially since a) the cost is about the same, if not less; b) I'm not trying to improvise; and c) I can actually supply what the motor says it wants on the nameplate. 

A 5 hp, capacitor start capacitor run motor from WEG (US manufacturer, labelled assembled in Mexico) will cost around 250 bucks... The one I have on my compressor pulls 21 amps at 220V, single phase with a claimed 82-85% efficiency - so it's really 5 horse at the shaft, not some uprated fantasy from Sears. That's a 3450 rpm motor, targeted to compressors. 1740 rpm units are available, cost in the $500 range.

There are some arguments about "balanced" motors on lathes; maybe that was an issue in 1940, but today probably not. Size could be an issue, but that's easily identified and likely fixable. What, if any, other reasons are there not to do a motor swap instead of trying to make a VFD work?


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## jimbojones132 (Mar 5, 2015)

There are multiple reasons for keeping the original 3 phase motor; some people think keeping the 3 phase is beyond them and thats ok...but getting rid of it is not the optimal choice.

Topic has gotten much off topic and my outstanding question re: adding an external  LED display to the AC Tech's I bought has gone un-answered.  I'll start a new thread solely on that topic and consider this topic CLOSED.



GLCarlson said:


> I use VFDs for smaller stuff (1-3 horse, TECOs, they're fine and an easy, low-cost solution). But when I get to a spot where the manufacturer of the VFD wants me to do something I can't -like supply 3 phase power- it seems to me that a reasonable approach is to swap out the motor. Especially since a) the cost is about the same, if not less; b) I'm not trying to improvise; and c) I can actually supply what the motor says it wants on the nameplate.
> 
> A 5 hp, capacitor start capacitor run motor from WEG (US manufacturer, labelled assembled in Mexico) will cost around 250 bucks... The one I have on my compressor pulls 21 amps at 220V, single phase with a claimed 82-85% efficiency - so it's really 5 horse at the shaft, not some uprated fantasy from Sears. That's a 3450 rpm motor, targeted to compressors. 1740 rpm units are available, cost in the $500 range.
> 
> There are some arguments about "balanced" motors on lathes; maybe that was an issue in 1940, but today probably not. Size could be an issue, but that's easily identified and likely fixable. What, if any, other reasons are there not to do a motor swap instead of trying to make a VFD work?[/QUOTE


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## mksj (Mar 5, 2015)

Your questions were addressed. The means to provide a remote display is with the SCF remote display/keypad AC Tech part number 844-200, there is no remote display without the keypad. Some VFDs do have a removable control panel, but you would need to take apart your VFD to see if this is doable and purchase/make a cable adapter depending on the VFD you are using.


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## jimbojones132 (Mar 5, 2015)

As stated earlier, wasn't entirely interest in the AC Tech part.

I've heard mention that you can output the display signal from the VFD and display it remotely using a 3rd party LED display; of course, it would have to meet certain specifications/configuration to work correctly and require it's own power source. I'm not aware of those specifications and if someone has an exact part number w/config steps, that would be a wonderful thing to have. 

If this is urban legend, then I've been chasing in vain and would have to either add the AC Tech part...or live without it. I really don't like the membrane-based buttons on the AC Tech part as I've already installed  2-ways switches, variable potentiometer w/scale & knob, resettable E-stop button, momentary Jog button and indicator bulb in the control panel I built.  



mksj said:


> Your questions were addressed. The means to provide a remote display is with the SCF remote display/keypad AC Tech part number 844-200, there is no remote display without the keypad. Some VFDs do have a removable control panel, but you would need to take apart your VFD to see if this is doable and purchase/make a cable adapter depending on the VFD you are using.


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## awander (Mar 5, 2015)

Lot's of VFDs have a 0-10V analog output that can be set to reflect 0-100% output frequency, or 0-100% motor speed.

You could take this voltage and feed it to a scalable LED voltmeter, such as:

www.electronumerics.com/DIN_series/3.5_Digit_DC_Voltmeter_Model_EN35V.htm


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## Jim Nunn (Mar 5, 2015)

rdhem2 said:


> Once again I have to agree with 'ol Ray C, Vettbob has some good points also.  Largest single phase drive I run is a 5hp Allen Bradley on a vertical bandsaw.  Runs great, no problems.  But who built it?  Rockwell, who owns AB?  I doubt it.  Hitachi?  Thats what I heard but can not prove it.  I have been told that the majority of brand name VFDs are Hitachi on the inside.  I know SqD Telemecanique (Tele) was that way for a while until they developed their own small HP units.  From what I have seen Hitachi builds a pretty bullet proof drive and I have heard nothing but good about TECO but never used one.
> 
> I'll be honest, I spent my life fixing things and now would rather use the stuff then work on it.  I have no interest in any CHINAMAN product for many many reasons.  I will not fix the `trade unbalance by myself but I will try.  I don't want the hassles and freight costs of sending stuff back and forth.  If I can not afford the cost I will find a different hobby.  I do it right or not at all.  That's OK, my wife doesn't understand either, and *****es about it all the time too.  Its just me.
> 
> You are correct also in saying you will not find an all USA made unit.  I doubt if all the small pieces parts are even made in the US.  But in the long run, support USA made product.  All six of the drives I run say *AB* or *SqD Tele* on the outside and I have never had a day of regret.  I just keep shoveling out the _*SWARF!*_




Some clarification Rockwell  purchased Allen-Bradley in 1985 and slowly over the years as Rockwell expanded the the product line Allen-Bradley became more of product line name.  Rockwell Automation is the company name while Allen-Bradley is a product line.  think of it as Ford Motor company which builds the Lincoln cars.   Today the drives still carry the Allen-Bradley name.  If you have an older AB drive such as the 1336, 1305 or the 160 these were designed by Allen-Bradly and built in the US by Allen-Bradley.  of the newer products the 4 series and the new 5 series were designed by Rockwell Automation but built off shore.  in many cases in plants that are in joint partnership with Rockwell Automation.  The 7 class drives are built in North America and to my knowledge there is only one other AC drive manufacture that is building product in the US that was designed in the US, sadly it is a design that is over 20 years old.   There are many manufacturers that build product for the brand names the most prevalent is the Delta drive.  Hitachi is a minor player in the VFD world that's not to say its a bad product they just haven't figured out how to sell in the major markets. 


As for the de-rate comments for running a 3 phase drive on single phase.  Its all in the power supply and boils down to the size of capacitors and if the drive has a choke (properly called a DC link choke) in the DC circuit.   With out the choke a 60 to 70% de-rate for continuous operation is normal with the choke 40 to 50% de-rate.   How do you know you have a choke in the drive just pick it up the drive will be considerably heaver and bigger.  Some drives give you the option of adding the choke but that for the hobbyist is too expensive.  A comment on sizing and de-rating a drive.  Forget HP its all about Amps.  A typical new 3 HP 3P 230 VAC motor will have full load current rating around 6.7 amps.  If you purchase a 3HP drive rated at 11 amps continuous


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## Jim Nunn (Mar 5, 2015)

My apologies on the my post it appears that not only was it posted twice the rest of the post was not downloaded.

"_*Forget HP it's all about Amps.  A typical new 3 HP 3P 230 VAC motor will have full load current rating around 6.7 amps.  If you purchase a 3HP drive rated at 11 amps continuous*_" and operate the drive on single phase you already have a 40% current margin.  So in this case you should have no real problem in a hobby/home shop.  If you want to size the drive correctly, assuming you can, I would measure the current draw of the motor when you are doing the most demanding machining that you would normally do.  Use this current as  your reference point.  using the 3Hp motor example if you measure the current at 4.5 Amps then the 11 amp 3 Hp drive will be more than sufficient for your machine.

On to the "quality" of the various drives.  The answer to this is very difficult and the best answer would be based on you usage of the drive.  If you were going to use the drive in a critical application whare an hour of down time would cost you $10,000 it would not make sense to buy a drive off of eBay that is not one to the big three drive manufactures (Siemens, ABB, Rockwell Automation/ Allen-Bradley).  on the other hand if the drive is only used for 5 or 6 hours per week it would not make sense to purchase a top line high performance drive.  What I would not purchase is a complete no-name drive by that I mean a drive that is not generally found in the US.  Back to the Amps I have seen drives sold as 3HP (230Vac) that could only deliver 6.5 Amps continous, that is not a 3Hp drive on the other end the product that I am associated with does produce 11 amps continuous.

Feel free to contact me by private message if you have a specific question or for that matter to disagree with me.

Jim


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## gt40 (Mar 6, 2015)

I am building a large epoxy granite mill and looking at running a 7-10 hp 3 phase 240v spindle for it in my garage.   I have 240v 50 amp service via a sub panel.   What would be the best way  run a motor this size in a garage environment and single phase power to start with?


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## JimDawson (Mar 6, 2015)

gt40 said:


> I am building a large epoxy granite mill and looking at running a 7-10 hp 3 phase 240v spindle for it in my garage.   I have 240v 50 amp service via a sub panel.   What would be the best way  run a motor this size in a garage environment and single phase power to start with?



I just spec'ed this VFD for a similar application, with a 100 amp sub-panel.  https://www.driveswarehouse.com/p-2537-wj200-110lf.aspx

It is a bit overkill for a 5.5HP (4KW) motor, but in this case every bit of motor power will be used nearly continiously.  Because this VFD is not rated for single phase input, I doubled the size.  The 10HP unit was marginal on the input current capability, so I went to the next larger size just to make sure.  Just a little bit overkill, but not much.  So for a 10HP motor I would go with at least a 20HP VFD.

Your 50 amp sub is right on the edge of being not quite big enough to run a 10HP motor.


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## gt40 (Mar 6, 2015)

JimDawson said:


> I just spec'ed this VFD for a similar application, with a 100 amp sub-panel.  https://www.driveswarehouse.com/p-2537-wj200-110lf.aspx
> 
> It is a bit overkill for a 5.5HP (4KW) motor, but in this case every bit of motor power will be used nearly continiously.  Because this VFD is not rated for single phase input, I doubled the size.  The 10HP unit was marginal on the input current capability, so I went to the next larger size just to make sure.  Just a little bit overkill, but not much.  So for a 10HP motor I would go with at least a 20HP VFD.
> 
> Your 50 amp sub is right on the edge of being not quite big enough to run a 10HP motor.



Thanks for the info.  I think will look at 7.5-8hp size then.   FYI I noticed you and I have the same series Jet lathe.  I converted mine to CNC with ground ballscrews and servos.  Pretty easy conversion...


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## JimDawson (Mar 6, 2015)

gt40 said:


> Thanks for the info.  I think will look at 7.5-8hp size then.   FYI I noticed you and I have the same series Jet lathe.  I converted mine to CNC with ground ballscrews and servos.  Pretty easy conversion...



Your welcome.

I would be interested in seeing pictures of your lathe


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## gt40 (Mar 6, 2015)

JimDawson said:


> Your welcome.
> 
> I would be interested in seeing pictures of your lathe



I did a build thread on cnczone before I found out about this place.  Currently have my epoxy granite build there I am working on there too.  Is there and dedicated cnc conversion/build log section here at Hobby-Machinist?  I just found out about this place not long ago from Darkzero...

Anyway, here is the thread on the lathe:  http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/223036-cnc.html#post1492610

If your interested, here is the thread on the giant epoxy granite mill I am building: 

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/verti...470-marks-epoxy-granite-18-quot-x20-quot.html

I am happy to move/reconstruct a summary of the builds here if you think there would  be a benefit for folks. 

Mark


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## JimDawson (Mar 6, 2015)

Nice build!  Now I'm going to have to put a CNC lathe on my to do list, right after the CNC surface grinder, that's next.


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