# Look what showed up in my shop!



## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

A friend just got this gem and wants me to keep it in my shop - indefinitely - no, really.  I've wanted one of these for a long time, but I doubt that I could have found one in this condition.  It's a South Bend #7, and if you look through the dust, it appears to be in near mint condition.  It was probably bought new by a hospital (you read that right) for who knows what reason, and has been sitting somewhere in their facility unused for decades.  It  wouldn't surprise me to find out it was never used for any purpose.

I tried to talk my buddy into selling it to me - he almost certainly would never have a use for it, and he knows even less about shapers than I do (which is close to nothing).  He recognizes this as a nice precision piece of equipment, but because he's a heavy equipment operator, he recognizes his shop is probably not the ideal place for it to reside.  So we cut a deal: he bought (I think he paid $350 for it); I'll keep it in my shop, get it operational, and pay for any incidentals costs; and we'll joint-own it.  Sounds like a deal to me.  Any over-the-top unforeseen costs, we'll revisit whether we want to keep it or not, but just looking at it, I don't see that happening.  Here are some photos.








*Challenge #1* - for some reason, someone decided it would make sense to cut the capacitor off of the motor.  I'm being told I need the part #'s off the old capacitor in order to replace it, which I obviously don't have.  I have all the information off of the motor face plate, which is shown below.  Anybody have an idea how I can figure out what capacitor I need?  If you can't read the info on the face plate, I can post other pictures or post the info. 




Regards,
Terry


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## Mini Cooper S (Apr 6, 2020)

Nice Machine, I love mine. It's one of those machines that when you need it, nothing else will do!  Here is a picture of the capacitor on mine, they are the same machine, so it should show what you need.

Richard


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## matthewsx (Apr 6, 2020)

She's a beauty, looks like you've got what you need for the capacitor but there's not too much difference as long as you get one for the right voltage that's big enough.

On suggestion though. We all like handshake deals but this is one where you and your buddy would do good to write something down. Just something simple like what he will do if he decides to take it back and you've put a bunch of time/money into it, and what happens if either one of you isn't around anymore and your heirs need to deal with it.

Have fun and post a video of it working soon

John


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## C-Bag (Apr 6, 2020)

Mini Cooper S said:


> Nice Machine, I love mine. It's one of those machines that when you need it, nothing else will do!  Here is a picture of the capacitor on mine, they are the same machine, so it should show what you need.
> 
> Richard
> 
> ...


Good job! The reason I came to this site was because the starter cap on my old Atlas was dead and couldn't find a spec anywhere for it except here. Be sure to clean the ways before you try and pull it through. Also doesn't this shaper have a pressure oiling system with a sump? Mine doesn't, it's splash system, you just splash oil everywhere


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## middle.road (Apr 6, 2020)

Ah I get it, what we're seeing here is Terry's '*New Equipment Procurement Plan*' in action.
He tells his Better-Half, 'Yeah, George can't use it - so he's letting me keep it here in my shop...'
Ingenious!


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

Mini Cooper S said:


> Nice Machine, I love mine. It's one of those machines that when you need it, nothing else will do!  Here is a picture of the capacitor on mine, they are the same machine, so it should show what you need.
> 
> Richard
> 
> ...


THANKS, RICHARD!!!  That's exactly what I need.

Regards,
Terry


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

middle.road said:


> Ah I get it, what we're seeing here is Terry's '*New Equipment Procurement Plan*' in action.
> He tells his Better-Half, 'Yeah, George can't use it - so he's letting me keep it here in my shop...'
> Ingenious!


SHHHHH!!!  She's listening!

And just for the record, his name is Alan...  But come to think of it, I do know a George who is very interested in machining and has been to my shop wishing he had a place for some equipment.  Hmm.
Gotta go!  I need to find his phone #.


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## Winegrower (Apr 6, 2020)

It looks like a perfect size for the shop.


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Good job! The reason I came to this site was because the starter cap on my old Atlas was dead and couldn't find a spec anywhere for it except here. Be sure to clean the ways before you try and pull it through. Also doesn't this shaper have a pressure oiling system with a sump? Mine doesn't, it's splash system, you just splash oil everywhere


In one of the drawers, there is a pump with what look like hose bib fittings.  It's pretty stout and is stamping on the casting looks very similar to the stamp on the machine.  Thanks for the tip.  I'm sure I'll be posting a lot as I get into this machine.

Regards,
Terry


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> She's a beauty, looks like you've got what you need for the capacitor but there's not too much difference as long as you get one for the right voltage that's big enough.
> 
> On suggestion though. We all like handshake deals but this is one where you and your buddy would do good to write something down. Just something simple like what he will do if he decides to take it back and you've put a bunch of time/money into it, and what happens if either one of you isn't around anymore and your heirs need to deal with it.
> 
> ...


Thanks, John.

We've been friends for 25 years and have done a few handshake deals before.  But that's irrelevant because I'm not giving it back to him anyway )).  Seriously, though, I'm about ten or fifteen years older than him, so chances are he'll be getting it back in maybe, oh 30 years or so when I turn a hundred-and-one and just don't feel like messing with tools anymore.

My wife and children will all know it's his, and I plan on drawing up a statement that I will laminate and put in one of the drawers on the shaper reminding everyone, this machine goes back to Alan before they raid the shop and then sell everything else off for about a nickel on the dollar.

Regards,
Terry


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## Janderso (Apr 6, 2020)

Outstanding!
Your gonna have fun with that


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Outstanding!
> Your gonna have fun with that


Already am!  Got it moved to what will become its permanent resting place, but pulled out a couple of feet so I can get all the way around it.  This is a very tight little machine.

Regards,
Terry


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

Mini Cooper S said:


> Nice Machine, I love mine. It's one of those machines that when you need it, nothing else will do!  Here is a picture of the capacitor on mine, they are the same machine, so it should show what you need.
> 
> Richard
> 
> ...


Richard, my local electrical supply store matched to your capacitor - grand total of $11.34.  I have mounted on the motor and it runs great.  The motor is currently clamped to my bench.  I don't plan on putting it on the machine until I've had an opportunity to study it some and clean, clean, clean.

Regards,
Terry


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## Mini Cooper S (Apr 6, 2020)

tjb said:


> Richard, my local electrical supply store matched to your capacitor - grand total of $11.34.  I have mounted on the motor and it runs great.  The motor is currently clamped to my bench.  I don't plan on putting it on the machine until I've had an opportunity to study it some and clean, clean, clean.
> 
> Regards,
> Terry


Great to hear, Glad to be of help.

Richard


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## Bi11Hudson (Apr 6, 2020)

An interesting acquisition. Mine came from the same background some 25+- years back. The seller had two from the local hospital that he combined to make one good one. I got what was left over and put the effort into restoring it.

.


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## Mini Cooper S (Apr 6, 2020)

Bi11Hudson said:


> An interesting acquisition. Mine came from the same background some 25+- years back. The seller had two from the local hospital that he combined to make one good one. I got what was left over and put the effort into restoring it.
> 
> .


That two (actually three) that came out of hospitals. Why would hospitals have shapers?


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## NCjeeper (Apr 6, 2020)

Great score for 350 bucks.


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## Janderso (Apr 6, 2020)

Mini Cooper S said:


> That two (actually three) that came out of hospitals. Why would hospitals have shapers?


Good question. I know large industry, manufacturing, transportation support, medical industry equipment repair and fabrication would need a fully equipped repair shop that may include a lathe, mill, drill press,  shaper, etc. ??
Best I can do


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

Bi11Hudson said:


> An interesting acquisition. Mine came from the same background some 25+- years back. The seller had two from the local hospital that he combined to make one good one. I got what was left over and put the effort into restoring it.
> 
> .


Interesting.  Any idea what hospitals do with metal shapers?


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

Mini Cooper S said:


> That two (actually three) that came out of hospitals. Why would hospitals have shapers?


Great question.


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

NCjeeper said:


> Great score for 350 bucks.


You think 350 bucks is a great score - so far I only have $11.34 invested.  THAT's a great score!


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## extropic (Apr 6, 2020)

tjb said:


> Interesting.  Any idea *what hospitals do with metal shapers?*



I hope the answer isn't too gruesome. 

Can you determine the year of manufacture of the machine?
All sorts of things happened to facilitate WW II production.


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

extropic said:


> I hope the answer isn't too gruesome.
> 
> Can you determine the year of manufacture of the machine?
> All sorts of things happened to facilitate WW II production.


That's a good question.  So far, I haven't found a serial number but, admittedly, I have yet to look too hard.  I doubt if it's WWII vintage.  Wild guess is it's '60's vintage.


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## Bi11Hudson (Apr 6, 2020)

Sorry, I got interrupted while expounding on hospitals and shapers. 

In the (not so) long ago before the administratior was a doctor with an MBA, a doctor would often build his own special tooling. When my pop was an admin(early '50s), his chief of surgury would build most any thing he needed. It might go into general usage or maybe just for himself. I specifically remember Dr Daniels when I was very small, before I started school(1956), was left handed. I'm sure, now, that he had whipped up stuff that he could handle better left handed. Ask most any southpaw about scissors or just try to use "standard" ones with a left hand. It ain't easy . . .

In those days, when MDs still made house calls, they were more like engineers or todays technicians. The only difference was when they worked on something, it usually was still running. That was before the bean counters and lawyers took over everything. Pop was a professional manager, not an accountant. Many larger hospitals had their own R&D shops, with machine tools available to all employees. Smaller, backwoods hospitals, like Pop's, worked with local machinists to make ideas into reality.

.


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## tjb (Apr 6, 2020)

Bi11Hudson said:


> Sorry, I got interrupted while expounding on hospitals and shapers.
> 
> In the (not so) long ago before the administratior was a doctor with an MBA, a doctor would often build his own special tooling. When my pop was an admin(early '50s), his chief of surgury would build most any thing he needed. It might go into general usage or maybe just for himself. I specifically remember Dr Daniels when I was very small, before I started school(1956), was left handed. I'm sure, now, that he had whipped up stuff that he could handle better left handed. Ask most any southpaw about scissors or just try to use "standard" ones with a left hand. It ain't easy . . .
> 
> ...


Interesting.  Never knew that.  So I'm guessing if this machine was used in that capacity, it's likely a mid- to late-50's or early- to mid-60's.  After that, I doubt MD's would be engineering their own tools.

Thanks for the education.

Regards,
Terry


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## matthewsx (Apr 6, 2020)

My grandfather was a doctor and if they'd let him have admitting privileges he might have been one to build specialized equipment. As it was he worked out of the office at his house where I'm sure he was fixing whatever mechanical thing needed to be worked on. It's easy to forget that just a generation or two back regular people made things on a pretty regular basis. Not so much as a "hobby" but because if they wanted/needed it that was often the best and cheapest way to get it. 

My daughter is about to graduate with her biomedical engineering degree and when she came home from her internship last summer you won't believe how proud she was to tell me about using the bandsaw and drill-press to do her work there.

So, not such a surprise there. You might even find 3D printers in the workshop at a modern hospital. I know my daughters roommate that's in the same program makes orthopedic practice pieces from cat scans for the surgeons at U of M.

john


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## Mini Cooper S (Apr 6, 2020)

Bi11Hudson said:


> Sorry, I got interrupted while expounding on hospitals and shapers.
> 
> In the (not so) long ago before the administratior was a doctor with an MBA, a doctor would often build his own special tooling. When my pop was an admin(early '50s), his chief of surgury would build most any thing he needed. It might go into general usage or maybe just for himself. I specifically remember Dr Daniels when I was very small, before I started school(1956), was left handed. I'm sure, now, that he had whipped up stuff that he could handle better left handed. Ask most any southpaw about scissors or just try to use "standard" ones with a left hand. It ain't easy . . .
> 
> ...


Thanks for that explanation, makes perfect sense. Kind of make one wonder what other hospital machinery is available.


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## twraska (Apr 7, 2020)

tjb said:


> Thanks, John.
> 
> We've been friends for 25 years and have done a few handshake deals before.  But that's irrelevant because I'm not giving it back to him anyway )).  Seriously, though, I'm about ten or fifteen years older than him, so chances are he'll be getting it back in maybe, oh 30 years or so when I turn a hundred-and-one and just don't feel like messing with tools anymore.
> 
> ...



Just a thought, use a paint pen to ID his ownership by the S/N plate in addition to a card in the machine. That way anyone looking at the machine will see it.


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## tjb (Apr 7, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> My grandfather was a doctor and if they'd let him have admitting privileges he might have been one to build specialized equipment. As it was he worked out of the office at his house where I'm sure he was fixing whatever mechanical thing needed to be worked on. It's easy to forget that just a generation or two back regular people made things on a pretty regular basis. Not so much as a "hobby" but because if they wanted/needed it that was often the best and cheapest way to get it.
> 
> My daughter is about to graduate with her biomedical engineering degree and when she came home from her internship last summer you won't believe how proud she was to tell me about using the bandsaw and drill-press to do her work there.
> 
> ...


Interesting.  My daughter is a brilliant doctor, but she doesn't know a screwdriver from a drill press.  My, how times have changed.

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 7, 2020)

twraska said:


> Just a thought, use a paint pen to ID his ownership by the S/N plate in addition to a card in the machine. That way anyone looking at the machine will see it.


Great idea.  Thanks.


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## middle.road (Apr 7, 2020)

I never in a thousand years would have thought of a hospital having and using a machine shop.
* Learn something new each and every day *
A few years ago they tore down the large hospital on the south side of Knoxville. 
If had I but known. . .


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## tjb (Apr 8, 2020)

*Challenge #2*

The vertical travel seemed to be binding quite a bit.  It was very difficult to turn even a fraction of a revolution, until it finally locked up.  I have removed the shaper from its stand and turned it over to look at the gears.  Here's what I found:  There indeed was some swarf in the gears.  (Just about front and center in the first photo.  Holding one with a pair of pliers in the second.)





That swarf is there because 5 teeth were broken on the back side of the gear.  You can see the break in the second photo below - two teeth on the farthest left.





Don't know why or how this happened.  It was turning when I got it, but not at all smoothly.  I could get it to go all the way up and all the way down once, but then that was pretty much it.

It looks like the gear on the end of the screw would still be operational - IF I can get it back onto the worm gear.  The gears on the lead screw are concave in the center, and I can't see how to engage it with the worm gear without removing it from the casting.




Terrified at the thought of hammering out those pins on the worm gear.  Life would be miserable if the casting breaks.

Any suggestions?

Regards,
Terry


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## C-Bag (Apr 8, 2020)

Welcome to the world of forensic Old Iron repair. Mine was more like and archeological dig than anything. 

I don't know how your shaper is set up but the Atlas has 8 bolts that have to be loosened before you can move the knee. So all these kinds of details are what causes adjustment failures. The rod that sticks out for the knee adjustment is slightly bent on mine. Luckily they stopped and didn't break anything.

The pins are probably tapered like mine all are. So they will only go one way. So usually if it's sticking out on one side it means you drive it out from the other side. And note and mark which way it goes to put it back together. Make sense?


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## tjb (Apr 8, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Welcome to the world of forensic Old Iron repair. Mine was more like and archeological dig than anything.
> 
> I don't know how your shaper is set up but the Atlas has 8 bolts that have to be loosened before you can move the knee. So all these kinds of details are what causes adjustment failures. The rod that sticks out for the knee adjustment is slightly bent on mine. Luckily they stopped and didn't break anything.
> 
> The pins are probably tapered like mine all are. So they will only go one way. So usually if it's sticking out on one side it means you drive it out from the other side. And note and mark which way it goes to put it back together. Make sense?


Yeah, makes sense.  Had a feeling that was going to be the answer.

Thanks for the reply.

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 8, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Welcome to the world of forensic Old Iron repair. Mine was more like and archeological dig than anything.
> 
> I don't know how your shaper is set up but the Atlas has 8 bolts that have to be loosened before you can move the knee. So all these kinds of details are what causes adjustment failures. The rod that sticks out for the knee adjustment is slightly bent on mine. Luckily they stopped and didn't break anything.
> 
> The pins are probably tapered like mine all are. So they will only go one way. So usually if it's sticking out on one side it means you drive it out from the other side. And note and mark which way it goes to put it back together. Make sense?


If you look at the last picture in my earlier post, you can see the heads on both pins.  The other side of the top pin is shy of going through by about a 16th.  The lower one, not so much, but still shy.  I tapped them lightly - very lightly - with a punch and hammer, and they seem to be seated pretty snugly.  Does it make any sense to drill them out?

Regards


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## C-Bag (Apr 8, 2020)

tjb said:


> If you look at the last picture in my earlier post, you can see the heads on both pins.  The other side of the top pin is shy of going through by about a 16th.  The lower one, not so much, but still shy.  I tapped them lightly - very lightly - with a punch and hammer, and they seem to be seated pretty snugly.  Does it make any sense to drill them out?
> 
> Regards


Those pins were driven in pretty hard. They had to be. If there are not cracks in the castings, thats cast iron, not pot metal. If you have the correct pin driver (not tapered punch!) that's the same size as the pin and you are driving the correct direction , and start them by driving straight "down" not sideways to the bosses. Then rotate and drive sideways, they will come out. I would do more damage trying to drill those pins. Those are hardened. I didn't ever have to drill the many pins I had to remove and mine had been in the at least 70-80yrs. Some good penetrating oil would help too.


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## tjb (Apr 8, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Those pins were driven in pretty hard. They had to be. If there are not cracks in the castings, thats cast iron, not pot metal. If you have the correct pin driver (not tapered punch!) that's the same size as the pin and you are driving the correct direction , and start them by driving straight "down" not sideways to the bosses. Then rotate and drive sideways, they will come out. I would do more damage trying to drill those pins. Those are hardened. I didn't ever have to drill the many pins I had to remove and mine had been in the at least 70-80yrs. Some good penetrating oil would help too.


Okay, done deal!  One of the two drove out very easily.  The other was a bit of a bear because evidently at some point someone hammered on the pin in the opposite direction - both sides were flared.  I picked the shorter of the two sides, used a dremel to grind of the flare, and punched it out.  The shaper is now vertical again with the crank operating smoothly in both directions.

Here are some pics before and after grease.  Is grease okay?  There is no port for lubing.

Thanks for the advice.  It was a great help.

Regards,
Terry


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## C-Bag (Apr 8, 2020)

Good job. Yup, grease is OEM as far as I know. I use Red "N" Tacky #2. That was what my manual on the Atlas said to use and that's what I use on the bull gear and the grease cups. I don't know what yours recommends. But for something like that grease should be fine.


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## tjb (Apr 8, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Good job. Yup, grease is OEM as far as I know. I use Red "N" Tacky #2. That was what my manual on the Atlas said to use and that's what I use on the bull gear and the grease cups. I don't know what yours recommends. But for something like that grease should be fine.


I used the same 'red' stuff that I use on all my tractors and farm equipment.  Don't remember the brand off hand, but it works great on those pieces of equipment.  It's both 'red' and 'tacky', so it'll probably work.  I have ordered an owners/parts manual that will be here by Saturday.  I suspect what I used will be consistent with what they recommend.

Thanks again.  Probably a little to cautious on my part, but better too cautious than too agressive.

Regards,
Terry


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## C-Bag (Apr 8, 2020)

tjb said:


> I used the same 'red' stuff that I use on all my tractors and farm equipment.  Don't remember the brand off hand, but it works great on those pieces of equipment.  It's both 'red' and 'tacky', so it'll probably work.  I have ordered an owners/parts manual that will be here by Saturday.  I suspect what I used will be consistent with what they recommend.
> 
> Thanks again.  Probably a little to cautious on my part, but better too cautious than too agressive.
> 
> ...


Better to be cautious than remorseful. These old machines are full of ways of doing things that are not common anymore. Nobody uses tapered pins, they use roll pins. And roll pins it doesn't matter which way you drive them out. It's little details that can quickly snowball. Did you try doing a search for a PDF version of the manual or even in the manual section here on H-M? I found the manual several places online for free. Not that the manual is that detailed for the Atlas 7b. It is very basic and there is no guide for repair, they only suggest you take it to somebody to repair it. The parts blowup helps but doesn't show how things come apart. Better than nothing.


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## brino (Apr 8, 2020)

Nice!

Here's a few documents that might be useful.
(there may be some duplicates, I did not download and compare them all)

From Hobby-Machinist Downloads section:
sb army7 shaper.pdf
SB-How to Run a Metalworking Shaper.pdf
South Bend Lathe-7in Shaper Parts List.pdf
1896-sb army7 shaper.pdf


From VintageMachinery:
South Bend Lathe-7in Shaper Parts List
How To Run A Metal Working Shaper (Edition 3, 1954)
US Army Technical Manual for SB 7" Shaper
South Bend 7" Precision Bench Shaper, Bulletin #500-A

-brino


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## SLK001 (Apr 8, 2020)

Wow... How does one get something like that to wander into their shop?  Do you put out bait, spray certain smells, hang colorful lights or play lively music?  Do you have to leave your door open a bit?

Let me know... I'll see if there are any of those running around down here that are looking for a place to spend the winter!


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## tjb (Apr 9, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Better to be cautious than remorseful. These old machines are full of ways of doing things that are not common anymore. Nobody uses tapered pins, they use roll pins. And roll pins it doesn't matter which way you drive them out. It's little details that can quickly snowball. Did you try doing a search for a PDF version of the manual or even in the manual section here on H-M? I found the manual several places online for free. Not that the manual is that detailed for the Atlas 7b. It is very basic and there is no guide for repair, they only suggest you take it to somebody to repair it. The parts blowup helps but doesn't show how things come apart. Better than nothing.


Yes, I did a quick search online for a manual.  Didn't find one - doesn't mean there isn't one; I just didn't find one.  The one I bought was only seventeen bucks, so it didn't break the bank.  I need to look in the manual section here at HM.  Never even thought of that - thanks.

Today we start cleaning and maybe even get to some re-assembly.

To be continued...


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## HarryJM (Apr 9, 2020)

Wow! Sounds like a win-win deal to me.


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## tjb (Apr 9, 2020)

SLK001 said:


> Wow... How does one get something like that to wander into their shop?  Do you put out bait, spray certain smells, hang colorful lights or play lively music?  Do you have to leave your door open a bit?
> 
> Let me know... I'll see if there are any of those running around down here that are looking for a place to spend the winter!


It's easy.  Do a guy a favor when he's in a pinch and needs something to keep a piece of equipment operational.  Don't charge him - just do it because he needs it, and you're able to help him out.

Seems to me these days folks don't think too much about helping somebody out with no expectation of something in return.  Back in the day, that was just a way of life.  Every time I've had the opportunity to do that, there is the very cautious response of 'what do I owe you?', combined with the somewhat frightened look of 'Oh, I hope this doesn't get ugly or embarrassing.'  When I've answered, 'you don't owe me anything', two things happen: First, a look of relief on their face; second, I just made a friend.  I don't take advantage of it, but in the few instances I've needed some help - and quickly - I know who to call.  I've not been disappointed.

And who knows?  Maybe someday, one of them will show up with a really nice shaper in the back of their truck they want you to keep for awhile.

Regards,
Terry


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## tjb (Apr 9, 2020)

brino said:


> Nice!
> 
> Here's a few documents that might be useful.
> (there may be some duplicates, I did not download and compare them all)
> ...


Wow!  Thanks, Brino.  That information will be very helpful.

Regards,
Terry


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## C-Bag (Apr 9, 2020)

tjb said:


> It's easy.  Do a guy a favor when he's in a pinch and needs something to keep a piece of equipment operational.  Don't charge him - just do it because he needs it, and you're able to help him out.
> 
> Seems to me these days folks don't think too much about helping somebody out with no expectation of something in return.  Back in the day, that was just a way of life.  Every time I've had the opportunity to do that, there is the very cautious response of 'what do I owe you?', combined with the somewhat frightened look of 'Oh, I hope this doesn't get ugly or embarrassing.'  When I've answered, 'you don't owe me anything', two things happen: First, a look of relief on their face; second, I just made a friend.  I don't take advantage of it, but in the few instances I've needed some help - and quickly - I know who to call.  I've not been disappointed.
> 
> ...


My dad grew up on a family farm so that was the way of life and it rubbed off on me. For me I don't expect anything in return but like you say it breaks the ice and I've become the guy who if you need welding or small repairs I can help. So because of that I know literally all my neighbors. That's not been the case since when I was a kid. My neighbors have given me a lot of stuff, so much believe it or not I had to turn it down. One neighbor whom I welded up his boat trailer tried to give me an old Lincoln tombstone welder and a floor standing drill press. Both of which I had no need or room for.


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## tjb (Apr 9, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> My dad grew up on a family farm so that was the way of life and it rubbed off on me. For me I don't expect anything in return but like you say it breaks the ice and I've become the guy who if you need welding or small repairs I can help. So because of that I know literally all my neighbors. That's not been the case since when I was a kid. My neighbors have given me a lot of stuff, so much believe it or not I had to turn it down. One neighbor whom I welded up his boat trailer tried to give me an old Lincoln tombstone welder and a floor standing drill press. Both of which I had no need or room for.


I hear you.  The first favor I did for Alan (the 'shaper' friend) was a few years ago.  He came by my shop one day a few months after that just to say hello.  I happened to be working on a pretty large welding job (building a work bench, as I recall), and I had been very carefully cutting 3" square tubing to length with a 4 1/2" grinder.  He said he had an old horizontal bandsaw that he wasn't using any more that would do that job a whole lot faster.  He'd replaced it with a much bigger industrial grade machine.  I asked him how much he wanted for it.  He told me to drive my truck over to his shop; he'd load it up, and I could have it.  Complete with six or eight replacement blades.  That's been one of the most useful machines in my shop ever since.

Like they say, "What goes around, comes around."

Regards


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## HarryJM (Apr 9, 2020)

tjb said:


> Like they say, "What goes around, comes around."
> 
> Regards


How true how true!


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## middle.road (Apr 9, 2020)

tjb said:


> It's easy.  Do a guy a favor when he's in a pinch and needs something to keep a piece of equipment operational.  Don't charge him - just do it because he needs it, and you're able to help him out.
> 
> Seems to me these days folks don't think too much about helping somebody out with no expectation of something in return.  Back in the day, that was just a way of life.  Every time I've had the opportunity to do that, there is the very cautious response of 'what do I owe you?', combined with the somewhat frightened look of 'Oh, I hope this doesn't get ugly or embarrassing.'  When I've answered, 'you don't owe me anything', two things happen: First, a look of relief on their face; second, I just made a friend.  I don't take advantage of it, but in the few instances I've needed some help - and quickly - I know who to call.  I've not been disappointed.
> 
> ...


I agree with that line of thought and I keep doing that. 
Though I have cut back after I loaned out my 10K trailer to an acquaintance who was out of work and needed some help, and it did not return home. Also loaned him a laptop to hone up on his computer skills and in a effort to become more marketable.
Turned nasty with physical threats so I had to back off. Have to leave it up to Karma at that point.
'Cast thy bread upon the waters...' and all that.


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## tjb (Apr 9, 2020)

Okay, I'm pretty whupped tonight, but I got a lot of cleaning done.  Here are some photos:

1.  Got the base cabinet cleaned up.  The top drawer is removed because the single hole in the back is bolted to a threaded hole in the rear of the shaper from inside the cabinet.  One challenge that became immediately clear - even the mildest cleanser that worked was taking off dirt, grime and, unfortunately, paint.  Here are some before-and-after shots.







2.  I disassembled the ram and the knee, cleaned the ways, and some additional cleaning done.  I had to make a judgement call: because so much paint was coming off, I decided to clean painted surfaces as best I could without doing a deep cleaning.  Ideally, I should break the machine all the way down, sand blast the parts, repaint, then reassemble.  But we're not trying to make a showpiece - just a nice machine to use. 









A little difficult to tell from the photos, but the ways on this shaper are quite literally brand new!  All the factory scrapings are visible, there is no evidence of wear, and everything is tight.

3. I will probably mount the shaper back on the cabinet tomorrow and then start reassembly of other components.  They're resting comfortably and soaking in kerosene right now.

4. I'd like to take the handwheel and pulleys off to clean, but I don't have a puller that fits the wheel.  Any suggestions?

Regards,
Terry


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## tjb (Apr 15, 2020)

Okay, LOTS of progress since last time I've posted.  I've taken many pictures, but just haven't had time to post anything.

These first few pictures show some of the additional cleaning:

Handles:





These next photos show the condition of the felt retainers.  They look the same all the way around.  Except for some superficial nicks on the exposed edges, the gibs also look brand new.  No signs of wear anywhere - lead screws, ways, etc.





The stand was a little wobbly because of some unevenness in the floor where I want to keep, so I made some adjustable feet.  2" round stock with recesses milled in the bottom.  I welded 3/8"bolts into the recesses and added nuts and washers for adjusting.  No more wobbling.


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## tjb (Apr 15, 2020)

Oops!  Hit the reply button by mistake.  This is a continuation of immediately preceding post.

Here are the feet I made.





Note that the stripped down shaper is also re-mounted to the stand:




Will post more pictures later (maybe tonight).

Regards,
Terry


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## f350ca (Apr 15, 2020)

Nice clean up and nice machine Terry
You may find you have to fasten the cabinet to the floor. I had a small Logan that had to be bolted down. The smaller machines are top heavy and stroke fast enough to walk themselves around.
I ran across an 18 inch Peerless that Im guessing weighs 2 to 3000 pounds, it strokes a lot slower and doesn't move.

Greg


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## Inferno (Apr 15, 2020)

I'm late to the party but this brings back memories of High School. 
The shaper was my favorite machine. Just got mesmerized watching it chew chunks of metal from a piece. 
I HS, I never really learned how to mill (Though I did take some aluminum mags and make them into unilug)so the shaper was my go-to machine. Most of the other kids in class didn't have the foggiest idea how to utilize it so I got to do a lot of cutting for them.

I've wanted one for a long time. For what, I don't know. I can't think of anything a shaper can do that a mill can't except for internal keyways (yup, cut a few of those in high school too)

Nice luck and a great thread of the refurb.


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## FOMOGO (Apr 16, 2020)

Nice that it is in such great condition, and great job on the cleanup. Mike


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## tjb (Apr 16, 2020)

f350ca said:


> Nice clean up and nice machine Terry
> You may find you have to fasten the cabinet to the floor. I had a small Logan that had to be bolted down. The smaller machines are top heavy and stroke fast enough to walk themselves around.
> I ran across an 18 inch Peerless that Im guessing weighs 2 to 3000 pounds, it strokes a lot slower and doesn't move.
> 
> Greg


Thanks for the heads-up, Greg.  I really don't want to do that, but wait a minute:  If it's bolted to the floor, doesn't it technically become a 'fixture'?  If that's the case, I wouldn't be permitted to remove it, so I wouldn't be allowed to give it back to Alan.  As much as I would hate to do that... Now, where'd I put my cement drill bits?


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## Downunder Bob (Apr 16, 2020)

Many years ago I was asked by the director of Biomedical Engineering at a local major Hospital if I was interested in a vacancy they had in their workshop. I looked into it and while I was interested in the job, the work, I wasn't interested in the pay. 

They had a great workshop, with a couple of lathes, milling machines, one horizontal the other vertical. a couple of drill presses, fitters benches, lots of hand tools and some die grinders I don't recall if they had a shaper.

Most of their work came from surgeons coming in with a sketch of some surgical tool that they would like the guys to make for them. they then had to do their own R&D until the device wa made and then perfected. They would also, of course, repair existing equipment.

 A fascinating job, but not much money. At the time I was married with two small kids, and a big mortgage, so had to decline the offer.


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## Nogoingback (Apr 16, 2020)

My son worked in a local machine shop while he was in high school.  The shop did a fair amount of work
developing and fabricating  surgical tools that local doctors dreamed up including some pretty sophisticated
stuff.


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## tjb (Apr 16, 2020)

Downunder Bob said:


> Many years ago I was asked by the director of Biomedical Engineering at a local major Hospital if I was interested in a vacancy they had in their workshop. I looked into it and while I was interested in the job, the work, I wasn't interested in the pay.
> 
> They had a great workshop, with a couple of lathes, milling machines, one horizontal the other vertical. a couple of drill presses, fitters benches, lots of hand tools and some die grinders I don't recall if they had a shaper.
> 
> ...


That is interesting.  The last place I would have thought a fully equipped machine shop would exist is a hospital.  I wonder how many diamonds are lying around in dark places of hospitals around the world.

Thanks for the education.

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 16, 2020)

Nogoingback said:


> My son worked in a local machine shop while he was in high school.  The shop did a fair amount of work
> developing and fabricating  surgical tools that local doctors dreamed up including some pretty sophisticated
> stuff.


Ditto on what I answered to Downunder Bob.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 16, 2020)

Here are some more photos:

Table and vise reassembled.  Action is very tight and smooth:







Tool head assembly:





Drive assembly and motor reinstalled (would still like to remove the handwheel but I'm a little too paranoid - it's TIGHT!):








Completely re-wired:






Assembly complete.  The South Bend cover was pretty filthy, so I soaked it over night in a mild solution of liquid dish washing soap.  Very clean and paint is still there, but faded.  Now it looks funny next to the body:




I have a 28 second video on my phone of it running.  Quiet as a sewing machine.  Only issue I'm not sure of is how do I determine if the self-oiling pump is working short of filling the reservoir?  Any experts on the subject?

I'd like to load the video, but I can't download it like I do my pictures.  Any advice?

Regards


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## extropic (Apr 16, 2020)

tjb said:


> <snip>
> *I'd like to load the video, but I can't download it like I do my pictures.*  Any advice?


 Are you selecting the "Insert video" icon (not the "Insert image" icon)?

Your shaper is coming along beautifully.


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## tjb (Apr 16, 2020)

extropic said:


> Are you selecting the "Insert video" icon (not the "Insert image" icon)?
> 
> Your shaper is coming along beautifully.


Yes, I'm using the 'Insert video'.  I'm working on trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks for the compliment.  It is a very nice unit.

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 16, 2020)

Okay, I think I figured out why the video wouldn't load.  Let's try this.

View attachment IMG_5982 (1).MOV

















Regards


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## Downunder Bob (Apr 16, 2020)

Just lovely. Very jealous.


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## Ulma Doctor (Apr 16, 2020)

the shaper looks and sounds beautiful!
very nice acquisition, i'm stoked for you.

were you able to figure out the oil pump situation?


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## tjb (Apr 17, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> the shaper looks and sounds beautiful!
> very nice acquisition, i'm stoked for you.
> 
> were you able to figure out the oil pump situation?


Thanks.  It does appear to be a very nice piece of equipment.

As of now, I have not pursued the oil pump situation.  I've looked inside the cabinet, and I can't see any moving parts on the pump while the shaper is running.
Questions:
1.  Any thoughts on how to test it?  Is filling the reservoir with oil the only option for testing?
2.  What kind of oil should I use?
3.  I think I've read in a place or two that many of these machines are manually oiled.  Obviously, I'd prefer to use the pump, but is that a good Plan B if the pump is not operable?

The other issue I'd like to address is removing the hand wheel so I can clean it and the pulley.  It would be a relatively simple matter to fabricate a puller, but it is on very tight.  Last thing I need to happen is the hand wheel break.  Any experience with that?

Regards


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## Ulma Doctor (Apr 17, 2020)

i suppose you could use other fluids to test the pump like diesel fuel or kerosene,
but you'll need to be careful to clean and re-oil the surfaces before use.

my Ammco7 is 100% manual oiling through oil ports.
i'd like to retrofit a one pump system or a pressure lube system.

i have had trouble removing hand wheels from many types of equipment.
if i get a tough one, i'll generally try heating with a heat gun- then apply the mechanical advantage of the puller.
grab as close to the shaft as possible, pullers applied on the OD of very large pulleys can easily snap a pulley or handwheel
i try to use bearing separators whenever possible.
they can often save you an otherwise trashed assembly- if used correctly


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## tjb (Apr 18, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> i suppose you could use other fluids to test the pump like diesel fuel or kerosene,
> but you'll need to be careful to clean and re-oil the surfaces before use.
> 
> my Ammco7 is 100% manual oiling through oil ports.
> ...


Thanks, Mike.

Another option on the hand wheel is to just leave it be.  It's not over-the-top filthy, and to me it's not worth the risk of breaking it to get it spotless.  Besides it's under the belt guard anyway.  Like Yogi says, "If it ain't broke, don't break it."

With regard to the oil pump, I suspect the only way I'm going to know if it works is to go ahead and fill the reservoir and run it.  I believe I read somewhere that it holds about a quart.  I'm inclined to go ahead and use the right stuff instead of something that will require more work to get out afterwards.  What type oil do you use in your shaper?  There doesn't seem to be an indication in the parts manual of what to use.

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 18, 2020)

Mini Cooper S said:


> Nice Machine, I love mine. It's one of those machines that when you need it, nothing else will do!  Here is a picture of the capacitor on mine, they are the same machine, so it should show what you need.
> 
> Richard
> 
> ...


Richard,

Can you offer any input on the oil pump issue?  Does the pump on your South Bend work?  Any idea short of filling the reservoir on how to test it?  What type oil do you use?

Anything you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Regards


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## Ulma Doctor (Apr 18, 2020)

tjb said:


> Thanks, Mike.
> 
> Another option on the hand wheel is to just leave it be.  It's not over-the-top filthy, and to me it's not worth the risk of breaking it to get it spotless.  Besides it's under the belt guard anyway.  Like Yogi says, "If it ain't broke, don't break it."
> 
> ...


If it ain’t broke , don’t fix it!

As far as oil goes, i use ND30 wt oil
But i’m sure ND20 wt would suffice too


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## tjb (Apr 18, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> If it ain’t broke , don’t fix it!
> 
> As far as oil goes, i use ND30 wt oil
> But i’m sure ND20 wt would suffice too



ND30 or ND20 is all?  Glad I asked.  I thought I would need to use something like machine oil or way oil.

Oh, and if you think about it, Yogi's version makes more sense.  If it ain't broke, you can't fix it.

Regards


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## Mini Cooper S (Apr 18, 2020)

tjb said:


> Richard,
> 
> Can you offer any input on the oil pump issue?  Does the pump on your South Bend work?  Any idea short of filling the reservoir on how to test it?  What type oil do you use?
> 
> ...



Here is a copy of the military tech manual for our shapers, I downloaded it from Vintage Machinery.org.  It has a good section on lubrication and the pump.  Also here is a picture of a viscosity comparison chart the I downloaded from the web.  Looking across from the  "Saybolt  Universal  viscosity  approximately  200 seconds  at  100°  F" line it looks like about a 20 Wt. oil (Non Detergent).  I think that may be available from a hardware store or McMaster-Carr.  There is also info on adjusting the oil flow.  If you are not getting any or very little flow, check that the flow valve isn't gummed up.

Hope this helps, the project is looking great.

Richard


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## middle.road (Apr 18, 2020)

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate in using ISO46 or ISO68 from Tractor Supply or equivalent type of store.  
Much easier on the budget than special purpose / premium lubes.
It's not going to be running in a production environment.


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## tjb (Apr 18, 2020)

Mini Cooper S said:


> Here is a copy of the military tech manual for our shapers, I downloaded it from Vintage Machinery.org.  It has a good section on lubrication and the pump.  Also here is a picture of a viscosity comparison chart the I downloaded from the web.  Looking across from the  "Saybolt  Universal  viscosity  approximately  200 seconds  at  100°  F" line it looks like about a 20 Wt. oil (Non Detergent).  I think that may be available from a hardware store or McMaster-Carr.  There is also info on adjusting the oil flow.  If you are not getting any or very little flow, check that the flow valve isn't gummed up.
> 
> Hope this helps, the project is looking great.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Richard.  I actually found the oil pump section in the Vintage Machinery literature a few minutes ago.  Hopefully, that information will resolve the issue.  I'd just about bet money the flow valve is gummed up - I'd be gummed up, too, if I'd been sitting in a dark basement doing nothing for the past 50 years.

ND20 sounds right.  It's also in the range Mike (Ulma Doctor) suggests.  In his post above, he noted he uses ND30 but thinks ND20 would also be fine.

Thanks again for the input.

To be continued...

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 18, 2020)

middle.road said:


> Personally, I wouldn't hesitate in using ISO46 or ISO68 from Tractor Supply or equivalent type of store.
> Much easier on the budget than special purpose / premium lubes.
> It's not going to be running in a production environment.


Thanks.  Worth considering, but if I'm reading the parts manual correctly, the capacity of the reservoir is only a quart.  That won't break the bank.

Regards


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## Ulma Doctor (Apr 18, 2020)

ISO68 is equivalent to SAE20 wt
ISO100 is equivalent to SAE30 wt


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## tjb (Apr 18, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> ISO68 is equivalent to SAE20 wt
> ISO100 is equivalent to SAE30 wt


Thanks.  That's good to know.

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 28, 2020)

Okay, a couple of new items to report:

1.  I cleaned out the reservoir and filled it with ISO68 way oil.
The good news: the pump is working!
The bad news: the pump feeds a manifold that has four copper(?) lines - one for each side of the ways on the ram, and two that are essentially free-standing that drip-lubricate gears and other moving parts.  All four lines appear to be brazed to the manifold, and the two for the ways seem brazed to pressed-in clips.  Three of the four are properly pushing oil, but nothing is coming out of the fourth.  And, unfortunately, it is one side of the ways.  I suspect the clip may break if I try to pull it out.  I tried clearing the port with small wire cleaners and compressed air, but it didn't help.  My next thought is to cut the line and see if it's making it through the manifold and then work from there to resolve the problem.  I think small plastic fuel line will work well to patch the cut.  Any thoughts?

2.  In all the enthusiasm about tearing into the shaper, I have completely disregarded some other stuff that came with it.  Anybody know what this stuff is?  I need to start cleaning it up, but it would probably be nice to know what it is, exactly, that I'm cleaning.  Whatever it is, it seems to be high quality, made in America, Rockwell tooling in very good condition.  The pieces in the lower right on the first picture, shown in more detail in the last picture, are particularly curious.  Are those annular cutters?  They seem to have a small Morse taper on the back end.

Regards,
Terry


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## NCjeeper (Apr 28, 2020)

I use a univise on my surface grinder to sharpen HSS. You can grind really precise angles.


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## middle.road (Apr 28, 2020)

Sweet univise, what does the red tag say on the table?


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## brino (Apr 28, 2020)

Neat!

Most of it looks like add-ons to a grinder table.

This document:
Rockwell Machine Tools (Metal Lathes, Milling Machines, Toolmaker Grinders) AD-1755 

shows these on page 42:












With some descriptions on page 43.

-brino


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## talvare (Apr 28, 2020)

In the last photo, those are not annular cutters, they are drive-in concrete anchors. You drill the appropriate size hole in concrete, insert the little red cone into the split end of the insert and drive the assembly into the concrete. You now have threads to anchor something to the concrete.

Ted

PS- Those are actually designed to be self-drilling anchors. I never had good results using the anchor to drill the hole. Always used a Rotohammer with masonry bits.


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## tjb (Apr 28, 2020)

middle.road said:


> Sweet univise, what does the red tag say on the table?


"Rockwell Manufacturing....Made in the United States of America"  If you zoom in on the photo, you


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## tjb (Apr 28, 2020)

talvare said:


> In the last photo, those are not annular cutters, they are drive-in concrete anchors. You drill the appropriate size hole in concrete, insert the little red cone into the split end of the insert and drive the assembly into the concrete. You now have threads to anchor something to the concrete.
> 
> Ted
> 
> PS- Those are actually designed to be self-drilling anchors. I never had good results using the anchor to drill the hole. Always used a Rotohammer with masonry bits.


Thanks for the education.  Never heard of those.

Regards


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## tjb (Apr 28, 2020)

brino said:


> Neat!
> 
> Most of it looks like add-ons to a grinder table.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Brino.

I'll need to download this.

Regards


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## tjb (May 2, 2020)

The oil pump is fixed!  It was quite an exercise in machining (for me, at least), but I'm happy to report it is now working properly on all four ports.  Here's a description and pictorial of the repair:

As I had noted in an earlier post, the manifold block has four lines coming out of it but only three were pumping oil.  In order to figure out what was wrong, it was necessary to remove the block.  I was able to do that without removing the copper tubing.  That's a good thing because they are soldered into the block.  The two slotted inserts are actually regulator pins - not screws.  When vertical, a port is open that allows fluid transfer.  When horizontal, the port is closed.  The one on the left controls the left pair, and the one on the right controls the right pair.  The left pin appears to be damaged - it wobbles in the hole and can easily be pushed in and out by hand.  The protrusion on the bottom fits into the pump and feeds into the block.  It is also very loose and can easily be inserted and removed by hand with no effort at all.  It's a curiosity to me that under these conditions, three of the four ports were working.



The left pair of tubes lubricates the rocker arm shoe assembly and the right ways, in that order.  The right pair lubricates the left ways and the bull gear.  The second tube from the left (the one for the right ways) would not push fluid through at all.  I used weld wire and everything at my disposal to open it up, but it became clear that the problem was not in the tube - it was in the block itself.  After much head scratching and deliberation, it seemed to me the easiest fix would be to make a new block.  I started with a piece of aluminum milled to 1 1/2" x 1" x 5/8", drilled four vertical holes exactly 5/8" deep, and then a lateral hole 9/16", stopping just after the fourth vertical hole.  All these holes are 1/8" diameter.  The result is all four vertical ports are connected across the bottom by the lateral hole.  I milled the lateral opening to a 1/4" diameter about a 1/4" deep so that I could plug the opening.  On the bottom side, I milled a hole that holds the part fitting into the pump (1/4" OD - 1/8" ID).  It is exactly centered and is deep enough to engage the lateral hole, thereby feeding all four ports.  I did not see any advantage to adding the regulator pins.  If I designed it correctly, all four ports should be receiving equal pressure.  If that logic was wrong, it would be an easy matter to remove and a drill and tap for a small set screw on each port.  Time would tell.








Final step was to clean up the block and add the tubing.  I epoxied the new tubing to the block and let it sit overnight.








First thing this morning, I mounted the assembly in the shaper WITHOUT connecting any of the tubes.  Turned it on and all four ports were pushing oil.  I routed and connected the tubing, and I'm happy to say everything is working as it should.

This project is now complete, and a BIG THANKS to all who offered sage advice on the various steps in getting this fine machine operational.  Only thing left to do is figure out how to use it.

Thanks to all for following the thread.

Regards,
Terry

P.S.:  I have a video of the ports pushing oil, but I'll need to re-educate myself on how to post it.


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## tjb (May 3, 2020)

Here's a short video of the oiler working:

Regards

View attachment IMG_0659.MOV


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## mattthemuppet2 (May 3, 2020)

very cool - that's some neat detective and fab work there.


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## tjb (May 3, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> very cool - that's some neat detective and fab work there.


Thanks!


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