# Need advice on how to disassemble Royal live center



## 9t8z28 (Jan 2, 2022)

I purchased a used Royal live center from Lost Creek Machine.  The exterior surfaces are in great condition, almost as if it wasn't used very much but when I turn the center by hand it seems to me that it takes a good bit of effort to rotate.   There is no roughness or grittiness when rotating.  I really think that it just sat for a very long time and the grease has dried up.  There is a SHCS on the end of the taper.  I removed it and sprayed some light oil in the back of it, re-installed the SHCS and put it in the headstock of my lathe and spun it up to 1,000 rpm.  At first it required a good grip to hold onto the center but after 30 seconds or so it loosened up to the point that the resistance to rotate it feels similar to my other live centers.   Although it feels like I brought it back to life, I know that the oil I put in there is not adequate lubrication for the bearings and the center did start to get a little warm.   
Can anyone tell me how to take this apart or can give me an idea on how it should come apart?  When I remove the SHCS from the end of the tapered end there is another 5/32 SHCS down the bore at the back of the body.   I thought about loosening it but then I figured I had better post here first and see if anyone knew how to disassemble it.  
I looked on Royal's website and can't find any info on it.  There is no part# on the body so no way to look it up.  I doubt if I call up Royal they would want to give me the time of day on how to disassemble it.  I searched this forum and youtube and all I found was a video from Randy Richards but the center he disassembled was not built the same.  
I am no expert when it comes to live centers and I have only ever owned a few chinese knock-offs and they seem to turn easily without much effort at all but if the light oil loosened it up I would think that it needs servicing.  Maybe I am wrong and higher end centers require more resistance because they are expected to deflect less?  
Here is whats etched on the body:
Super-Tri Bearing Live Center
Royal Products, Hauppauge, NY
Made in USA 3MT


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## mikey (Jan 2, 2022)

Call Royal. They're pretty responsive. They also offer a rebuild service and may be able to get that thing working properly. That center goes for new $800.00 so it might be worth sending it in instead of mucking around with it.


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## 9t8z28 (Jan 2, 2022)

mikey said:


> Call Royal. They're pretty responsive. They also offer a rebuild service and may be able to get that thing working properly. That center goes for new $800.00 so it might be worth sending it in instead of mucking around with it.


I couldn't find this model on their website.  Did you happen to see a part# ?


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## buffdan (Jan 2, 2022)

Royal also publishes diagrams.. Search on Royal live center diagram


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## mikey (Jan 2, 2022)

9t8z28 said:


> I couldn't find this model on their website.  Did you happen to see a part# ?


Used to be their model 10663. Not sure what it is now.


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## 9t8z28 (Jan 2, 2022)

buffdan said:


> The end cap might just be held in with 0-ring fit. try twisting the back cap. Inside might be screw head..
> Not sure, but thats how some come apart.
> Randy Richard has video on disassemble royal center too..
> Royal also publishes diagrams.. Search on Royal live center diagram


Its not an O-ring but a SHCS and I took it out and beyond that is another SHCS at the  back of the body.  
Yes I mentioned the RR in the Shop vid but its different.  
I have been unable to find this model or one like it on Royal's website.


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## buffdan (Jan 2, 2022)

I guess I need to read posts thru   
Looks like Mikey might be right... On the 10663


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## 9t8z28 (Jan 2, 2022)

mikey said:


> Used to be their model 10663. Not sure what it is now.





buffdan said:


> I guess I need to read posts thru
> Looks like Mikey might be right... On the 10663


I saw exactly what both of you are referring to but my issue is that they list the 10663 as a QUAD bearing whereas mine has Tri-bearing printed on it.  More importantly the 10663 has a body length of 2.12" but mine is 1.94" (about .180" shorter).   All of the other dimensions shown are very close but whats got me even more confused is Royal calling 3 angular contact bearings plus a needle roller a QUAD bearing?  If so I would assume my center has 2 angular contact bearings and 1 needle roller.  I guess a call to Royal "might" resolve my confusion but I still need to pull it apart and thats where I am hoping someone here has some experience.  I have seen a few guys on the "PM" forums mention disassembling this brand center but not this particular model. 
Also that SHCS that I mentioned deep down in the shank, if the internals are similar it would be right before the roller needle bearing.  I thought about pressing it out from the back towards the tip but I am not sure if that SHCS has to come out first. 



When you look at the pic you can see 3 angular contact bearings and a needle bearing in the back.


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## mikey (Jan 3, 2022)

You have the older model tri-bearing 10663. You are right that the "new" 10663" is a quad bearing in Royal's current line up. Regardless, a call to tech support may give you the info you need re disassembly.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jan 3, 2022)

to me it looks like you push the whole spindle out the front, then dismantle it by removing the bearing locknut and then the bearings (noting orientation of each one).


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## markba633csi (Jan 3, 2022)

Personally, I would leave it alone.  I think it just sat for a while and will loosen more as you use it. 
The factory probably has special tools which you don't have- and a cleaner assembly room
-Mark


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## 9t8z28 (Jan 3, 2022)

If I refrain from disassembling it but want to further loosen up the dried grease, what kind of oil do you guys recommend I use? 



markba633csi said:


> Personally, I would leave it alone.  I think it just sat for a while and will loosen more as you use it.
> The factory probably has special tools which you don't have- and a cleaner assembly room
> -Mark


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## 9t8z28 (Jan 3, 2022)

I spoke to Chris at Royal Products and he helped me as much as was feasibly possible.  He informed me that the Tri-Bearing models were discontinued in 2001 and it has been closer to 30 years since they revised them to the quad bearing they now offer and even though the Quad bearing is superior, the Tri-Bearing models are still a stout center.  They no longer service the Tri-Bearing models but they do offer to replace it with the quad bearing for 30% of the cost of the new quad bearing model.
He also told me that to disassemble the unit I need to remove the rear pipe plug and press the bearing assemble out from the back towards the front and there is no need to remove the 5/32 SHCS before pressing it out.  
I will post pics up here when I get it apart.  Hopefully this will help others who may find themselves with the same dinosaur


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## Z2V (Jan 3, 2022)

What did Royal recommend as far as what oil to use?


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## Alcap (Jan 3, 2022)

Did they fellow from Royal say if pressing out the bearing will damage them ? Maybe your planning on replacing them anyway . I was always taught never have the pressing forces go through the bearings when installing, the same as when removing if they were going to be reused .Going by the picture that was posted it looks like that my be the case , I might not be explaining this well enough.


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## mksj (Jan 4, 2022)

At the cost they are offering a new replacement, it may pay to to exchange it for a new quad bearing live center, by the time you get new bearings and get everything back together. I recall another member who ended up in a similar situation. You will have a center that should last a life time. I have a few centers for different applications, the better quality ones are a pleasure to use. As far as oil, I would either use spindle oil or ISO32 oil. Most of my centers either have a small screw in the body for oil or a screw at the back of the taper. One of my earlier CNC centers was a Shar's and was gritty and stiff form the start, I flushed it with oil and ran it for awhile, it is better, but I regret getting it. I now use a much smaller CNC point Rohm shown below, and also a Skoda with interchangeable points/tips. I also have an inexpensive bull nose that I infrequently use.


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## tq60 (Jan 4, 2022)

If there is a hole in the end for access then clean it out.

Fill with solvent and hold it vertical and spin the tip.

Flip to drain and see what comes out.

Repeat until clear or let soak overnight and repeat.

Once done shift to atf and use it a bit.

Atf is very high detergent and is designed to keep things clean.

Flush out and add correct oil.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## 9t8z28 (Jan 4, 2022)

Z2V said:


> What did Royal recommend as far as what oil to use?





Alcap said:


> Did they fellow from Royal say if pressing out the bearing will damage them ? Maybe your planning on replacing them anyway . I was always taught never have the pressing forces go through the bearings when installing, the same as when removing if they were going to be reused .Going by the picture that was posted it looks like that my be the case , I might not be explaining this well enough.


I mentioned to the tech that it appeared to have sat a while unused and the grease dried up.  I suggested that I take it apart and try to re-pack it with grease and he agreed that it could possibly bring it back to life. He did not correct me and tell me it needed oil nor did he say disassembling it would destroy the bearings. 
Yes I agree that there is a right way and a wrong way to press bearings during disassembly but in my experience if the bearing comes out without too much force rarely does it do any damage


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## 9t8z28 (Jan 4, 2022)

tq60 said:


> If there is a hole in the end for access then clean it out.
> 
> Fill with solvent and hold it vertical and spin the tip.
> 
> ...


thanks tq60.  I think this is the best method to determine whether it can be freed up.  If the solvents don’t free it up I will know that it’s not worth disassembling


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## 9t8z28 (Jan 4, 2022)

mksj said:


> At the cost they are offering a new replacement, it may pay to to exchange it for a new quad bearing live center, by the time you get new bearings and get everything back together. I recall another member who ended up in a similar situation. You will have a center that should last a life time. I have a few centers for different applications, the better quality ones are a pleasure to use. As far as oil, I would either use spindle oil or ISO32 oil. Most of my centers either have a small screw in the body for oil or a screw at the back of the taper. One of my earlier CNC centers was a Shar's and was gritty and stiff form the start, I flushed it with oil and ran it for awhile, it is better, but I regret getting it. I now use a much smaller CNC point Rohm shown below, and also a Skoda with interchangeable points/tips. I also have an inexpensive bull nose that I infrequently use.
> View attachment 390835


Those are some nice centers you got there.  What’s the one in the middle?

if I do disassemble it I will try to revive the bearings first.  If that doesn’t work then I’ll assess my options.  Getting a replacement from Royal would probably be a few years down the road.  I paid very little for it and truthfully I would rather try my luck buying another used center.


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## woodchucker (Jan 4, 2022)

you could always try pushing them out with grease. make an adapter and put a zerk fitting in, and pressurize the bearing chamber. point it away.. I would take a plastic soup container and put it in there so when it comes out, it's all contained.
Also heat is your friend... even a hot air gun can help before you do the grease.


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## Eddyde (Jan 4, 2022)

IMHO, I'd leave it be, its normal for live centers to get a little warm when running, especially during break-in. Pressing the bearings out and in, messing around with the preload adjustment are likely to do more harm than good. In my experience I have never seen grease dry up in a sealed unit like that, only when its been exposed to the atmosphere.


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## mksj (Jan 4, 2022)

I would just use thin oil and run it through the center a few times, you may also have a stiff front seal.  I would try to flush it out with some thin oil, possibly mineral spirits to see if it starts to spin more freely. I attached the instructions for my Skoda live center. I would be hesitant to disassemble and then try to get the proper bearing preload when reassembled. Agree that you can find something for less used, but often they may have issues unless you find NOS or a hobbyist that only used it a few times.

The center in the middle Swiss Made Fischer SFJ now sold under the name GPRTOPS Live Centers and  now sold by Riten. It uses a Belleville spring to apply tension, it was one of my first lathe purchases many years ago, I paid $200 for NOS. The bearings are like butter, and I like that you can set the preload on the work piece.


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## woodchucker (Jan 4, 2022)

mksj said:


> I would just use thin oil and run it through the center a few times, you may also have a stiff front seal.  I would try to flush it out with some thin oil, possibly mineral spirits to see if it starts to spin more freely. I attached the instructions for my Skoda live center. I would be hesitant to disassemble and then try to get the proper bearing preload when reassembled. Agree that you can find something for less used, but often they may have issues unless you find NOS or a hobbyist that only used it a few times.
> 
> The center in the middle Swiss Made Fischer SFJ now sold under the name GPRTOPS Live Centers and  now sold by Riten. It uses a Belleville spring to apply tension, it was one of my first lathe purchases many years ago, I paid $200 for NOS. The bearings are like butter, and I like that you can set the preload on the work piece.
> 
> View attachment 390870


is lv2-3 lith like nlgi2?
is it a white lith?

I have a nice little center, it has a spring to it. I have not been able to take it apart for service. 
It's a super low profile tip, and when tightening the quill, you can see the spring action where it moves back.

I wonder if its similar with a belleville washer.


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## Winegrower (Jan 4, 2022)

This thread got me interested in Rohm centers.  I was impressed with the specs of 0.0002 runout and a 600 pound or more weight!


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## mikey (Jan 4, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> This thread got me interested in Rohm centers.  I was impressed with the specs of 0.0002 runout and a 600 pound or more weight!


Yeah, impressive until you see that a Royal typically has 0.00005" TIR or less, with double the weight capacity. Live centers make a difference, especially with the ever-popular extended tip CNC-type of center. That long slender tip is what we focus on but the amount of material behind that tip is a lot beefier in a Royal. Not dissing Rohm. They make good stuff but a Royal is still best in class.


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## Winegrower (Jan 4, 2022)

mikey said:


> Yeah, impressive until you see that a Royal typically has 0.00005" TIR or less, with double the weight capacity.


Apparently I  am way too easily impressed.


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## woodchucker (Jan 4, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> Apparently I  am way too easily impressed.


don't worry, it's still impressive. Especially in these days of crappy products that their is no shame in producing, or is there no shame in us buying them????


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## mksj (Jan 4, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> is lv2-3 lith like nlgi2?
> is it a white lith?



Seems to vary, but basically  (Beacon EP 2 Moly) is a multi-purpose, lithium-base NLGI No 2 grease recommended for general industrial applications. It contains an extreme-pressure additive for increased load-carrying ability. Additionally, it contains molybdenum disulfide (also known as moly and MoS 2), which enhances the anti-friction properties of the grease under boundary lubrication conditions. Mobilux EP 2 Moly is dark gray and has a smooth, buttery texture. It is water resistant, has excellent oxidation and mechanical stability, and protects against corrosion. So pretty much a bearing grease. Mogul LV2-3 is similar, primarily a bearing grease.

It is very likely that the center has old grease that has dried up and makes it kind of crunchy/stiff. Not sure how one gets NLGI grease into a center. So I still would try to flush and then reintroduce some oil/grease. I used the ISO32 oil in my Shar's and it did improve with time, bit still not smooth.

The Belleville spring washer applies higher force over a shorter distance, the total travel of the point is less than 1/4", so just enough to allow some variation and thermal changes. Royal centers are expensive, they do give significant discounts to industry. Riten are also very good, in an industrial setting the better centers last longer and keep their specs. cheaper ones fail and could ruin a part or machine. At the Hobbyist level, it is a different story as you will neither need that level of accuracy and durability. Skoda centers are reasonably priced and have good performance. I mostly use the CNC/extended tip for most of my turning, standard point for heavy stock/turning.








						Riten - vs - Royal Centers
					

Is the price difference between the two brands a better value in the long run to go with the Royal?




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Flyinfool (Jan 5, 2022)

I would start by asking exactly what the 30% cost would be. This would give you a NEW center with no inherited issues like another used one could have.


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