# Ball Joints?



## Nick Hacking (Apr 23, 2019)

When I'm not working, or gardening, or messing around in the workshop with lathes and mills, I'm often to be found lying under an old Land Rover getting a good soaking in oil while rust falls into my eyes and ears. What fun.

One job that's a real pig is removal and refitting of the gearbox and I've had an idea for building a jig to make the task less difficult. Essentially, I envisage four bottle jacks, one at each corner, acting through ball joints to lift the frame that will hold the gearbox. This arrangement should allow not only height adjustment but also alteration of pitch and roll. Yaw would be adjusted by simply turning the lower end on casters.

But: where to get ball joints? I haven't a clue, I've never seen them advertised for sale anywhere. If they are not the sorts of things that can be bought off the shelf, should I get busy with my ball-turning attachment and if so: (1) What's the best material to use? I thought bronze might be a good choice but it's only a guess and (2) is it worth fitting grease nipples? The device is only going to used once every couple of years, the ball joints will disarticulate and can be greased up prior to each use.

Please keep in mind that I'm in the UK.

Many thanks,

Nick


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## Jason280 (Apr 23, 2019)

I *think* I have an idea of what you are building, sounds like threaded heim joints would potentially work well for your application....

Just do a Google search, should give you an idea as to whether they would work or not.  I assume you are referring to the transmission and transfer case assemblies, weight shouldn't be a problem so they wouldn't have to be overly large.


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## Janderso (Apr 23, 2019)

no content, misunderstood your need.


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## matthewsx (Apr 23, 2019)

Why not just use a transmission jack?












						Sealey Adjustable Gearbox Support 500kg Capacity for 300ETJ & 500ETJ - ADT7
					

Fully adjustable saddle with forward, backward and side-to-side tilt.Model No:ADT7Compatibility:300ETJ, 500ETJCapacity:500kg




					www.demon-tweeks.com
				





Cheers,

John


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## Canus (Apr 23, 2019)

Would the swivel portion of the threaded end of a "C" clamp work?


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## matthewsx (Apr 23, 2019)

Seriously, I love making tools but this one's dead simple. I've changed a few transmissions in British cars so I know what the OP is talking about. By the time you've engineered and built this contraption you could have changed the tranny a couple of times. Notice the chains on the Sealey unit. If you build something make sure you have positive means of keeping the unit in place while lifting it, they are heavy enough to break your hand if it slips.

JMHO,

John


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## RJSakowski (Apr 23, 2019)

In my younger days, I would just lay on my back with the transmission on my stomach and lift it into place.  Later on, I used a floor jack to lift the transmission.

As to your idea to use four hydraulic jacks, I would think that it would be cumbersome trying to adjust four jacks to get the proper orientation.  I lijke the security of using them though.  If using something like the Sealey platform, I would fasten the base of the jack to a large enough platform so the assembly couldn't topple over.  A scissors jack would  be easier to control, especially on downward movement.

Your pitch and roll adjustment could be accomplished using two pairs of butt hinges and three plates.  The first plate fastened to your jack connected to the second plate via a pair of hinges.  The second plate connected to the third via the second pair of hinges at right angle to the first.  A set of adjustment screws to adjust the angles and safety chains would complete the jack.


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## matthewsx (Apr 23, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> A scissors jack would be easier to control, especially on downward movement.





Yep.








						450 lb. Low Lift Transmission Jack
					

Amazing deals on this 450Lb Low Lift Transmission Jack at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




					www.harborfreight.com


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## rust rescue (Apr 23, 2019)

Four points would never be even with out stress on the lifting rig. I would go with three points.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 23, 2019)

rust rescue said:


> Four points would never be even with out stress on the lifting rig. I would go with three points.


While it is true that three points determine a stable plane, in this case, I would go with four points.  With three point suspension and a heavy load some distance above the base, it is possible that the center of gravity could fall outside a triangle defined by the three points. With four points, it is very likely that only three points will be in contact at any given time.  A slight change in position or sideways force could shift the balance point so the remaining point is now the one in contact. but the danger of having the load tip would be greatly reduced.


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## 682bear (Apr 23, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> View attachment 293271
> 
> Yep.
> 
> ...



I have one of these... it works extremely well for not a lot of money... one of HF's better deals...

I have also used a motorcycle jack successfully to remove transmissions... a little more awkward, but very doable... my MC jack is also a HF special.

-Bear


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## Nick Hacking (Apr 23, 2019)

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your advice. I suspect that I may not have quite explained the nature of the problem, from some of your posts. A Land Rover gearbox, bolted to its transfer unit, is too heavy for me to lift. I can *just* lift one end at a time to ease it onto a dolly. I am 6'4" tall, weigh over 200 lb and lead a fairly active lifestyle.

The actual weight quoted depends on whether the handbrake drum and overdrive unit are fitted: around 70 to 75 kg seems to be an accepted figure, say 160 lb.

RJ: If you can lie down with one of these assemblies on your abdomen I shall buy you a beer and tell all of my friends!

Jason: thanks for the link, but that's not quite what I had in my head.

John: maybe, but I want something more hefty.

Canus: that's the idea but they'd have to be quite big.

John, Bear: I think that would do it, but I'd quite like to realize my own design, for the fun of it. Still, I'll see if Machine Mart sell anything similar.

John: "By the time you've engineered and built this contraption you could have changed the tranny a couple of times" possibly. It took me a whole day to get the seatbox and floor out; another day to remove the transmission (through the passenger door) then remove and modify the gearbox crossmember (so that it can now be unbolted); yet another day to get the replacement gearbox in and connected up... and my clutch has seized so that I need to take the whole thing apart again. I have three old Land Rovers and three old Range Rovers. The chances are that I'm going to be doing this, or something like it, once every year or two. Two days building my frame are not really significant and the time saving on the actual job could be considerable.

The recommended way of doing it involves using an engine crane to hoist the lump out through the passenger door and then the replacement is swung in the same way. It's a real pig of a job to do single-handed because the bellhousing has to line up with the engine studs and the shaft has to go straight in, so one ends up trying to tilt the gearbox in three directions at once _and_ then get it to slide forwards to mate with the engine, without destroying anything. Or crushing fingers. From bitter experience, I find it easier to lower the engine into the engine bay and mate it with the transmission _in situ_. But I'm not doing an engine swap this time.

I think that all I need is a rectangle of steel box section with a caster at each corner. On each corner will sit one of my bottle jacks pushing a stout plate attached to a ball. Probably flanges on the plates to stop them from sliding off the jacks. On each ball will ride a cup and the four cups will be joined together by a second rectangle of box-section steel. Welded on to the top of the upper rectangle will be a pair of yokes on which the gearbox will rest (and safety chains because that does sound like a very good idea). I'll push the jig forwards with a screw jack once the orientation is bob-on.

Remember that my contraption is going to be rising up between the sides and crossmembers of the chassis. I don't think that it is likely to topple in use. It might be prudent to make the base relatively wide so that the thing doesn't collapse as it is pushed to/from the vehicle.

What I envisage, in future, is taking out the floor but leaving the seatbox in place; my modified removable gearbox-crossmember will be unbolted, The contraption will slide underneath, rise up to accept the transmission, lower it to the maximum extent; and the the vehicle will be jacked up to  to allow the whole thing to be slid out from under. Replacement will simply be the reverse operation. No more transmissions swinging about on engine cranes and smashing into steering wheels, dashboards, handbrakes, exhausts and the like.

So: I'm hell-bent on my daft plan. Do I make my balls and sockets out of bronze or steel, do you think?

And thank you, again, for all of your ideas.

Kind wishes,

Nick


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## mattthemuppet2 (Apr 23, 2019)

rather than hydraulic jacks, what about coarse thread acme screws? Would give you some finer control, though maybe the space between the 4 corners won't be enough to rotate a handle or get enough leverage.

Not entirely sure where the ball joints come in, a sketch would be handy.


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## kd4gij (Apr 23, 2019)

This should work








						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				








Or go to your local you pull it salvage yard and get some tie rod ends.


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## kd4gij (Apr 23, 2019)

or this









						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com


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## matthewsx (Apr 23, 2019)

I'll be looking forward to pictures when you start working on it. I'm quite set on my crazy plan of building my own mill/drill so I understand where you are coming from with wanting to make your own tools. 

Do the clutches on these rigs fail very often? I got pretty good at pulling the tranny in my friends GT6 race car which seemed to blow clutches every other race outing. I no longer have my TR4 or Triumph Herald but they were quite a bit of fun. Please post some pictures of your stable to this thread so we can see what you're up against.

Cheers,

John


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## matthewsx (Apr 23, 2019)

Nick Hacking said:


> Do I make my balls and sockets out of bronze or steel, do you think?



Brass, large ones


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## Nick Hacking (Apr 24, 2019)

Thanks all.
I'm at work at the moment: do you really want me to clutter up your machinists' site with pictures of my 
Land Rover scrap yard?

Machine Mart (our version of HF) sells those Sealy SD scissor jacks, but it's not quite what I'm after. I don't believe that McMaster sell in the UK.

Little 2 ton hydraulic jacks are only £10 or so - about $13?

I'll try to sketch my vision!

Kind wishes,

Nick


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## Nick Hacking (Apr 24, 2019)

As you can see, I have no training in technical drawing..


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## Nick Hacking (Apr 24, 2019)

And I think they're upside down.
Sorry


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## stupoty (Apr 24, 2019)

What about replacement ball joints for suspension arms ? They sell ones you can press in to some arms that can have them replaced.

for example





__





						Lemforder 3377301 Suspension Ball Joint : Amazon.co.uk: Automotive
					

Buy Lemforder 3377301 Suspension Ball Joint at Amazon UK. Free delivery on eligible orders.



					www.amazon.co.uk
				





Stu


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## Nick Hacking (Apr 24, 2019)

It would be much easier than trying to turn four balls and four matching sockets on my little lathe. I'll look into it.

Thanks,

Nick


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## matthewsx (Apr 24, 2019)

You could use regular automotive ball joints if you fixed them to the side of your frame. If it were me I'd be trying to build it for less than a ready made one costs, thus using old bed frames, car parts, etc.


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## f350ca (Apr 24, 2019)

Would a trailer hitch and ball work?

Greg


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## stupoty (Apr 24, 2019)

Nick Hacking said:


> It would be much easier than trying to turn four balls and four matching sockets on my little lathe. I'll look into it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Nick



I found some rod end ball joints also , their for hydraulic cylinders etc





__





						ball joint - Google Shopping
					





					www.google.com
				




EDIT
errrm not sure why the link says that but the correct stuff comes up when you click it 

direct link to RS , skip the old google "artificial lack of intelligence" 





__





						KJ6D | SMC M6 x 1 Female Rod End, 12mm Bore, Metric Thread Standard, Female Connection Gender | RS Components
					






					uk.rs-online.com
				




Also some super cheep ones from ebay









						1pcs SQZ Straight Shape Ball Joint Bearing Rod End Bearing M5/M6/M8/M10/M12,DIY  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 1pcs SQZ Straight Shape Ball Joint Bearing Rod End Bearing M5/M6/M8/M10/M12,DIY at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




Stu


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## Nick Hacking (Apr 24, 2019)

Again, thank you all. 

I hadn't thought of towing balls and sockets, but I think these: http://www.springfixlinkages.com/en...nd-socket-joints/ball-and-socket-joints/r3463  will be fine in the M10 size. They're about £3 each.

Cost-wise, if we say £11 per bottle jack, £3 per ball joint, £2.50 per caster - that's £66 - plus the steel box section, plates and tubing, some nuts and bolts... I think it's going to work out being less expensive than the Sealy scissor jack. I'll get on with ordering parts...

I shall see if I can upload a picture of the beast causing me all these headaches.

Kind wishes,

Nick


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## Nick Hacking (Apr 24, 2019)

Here we are.
I hope they don't turn out to be upside down again.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Apr 24, 2019)

Since your willing to go through  all that trouble building such an elaborate transmission jack aka gearbox lift, have you ever thought about building one of those whole vehicle tilting jack setups?  This would give you almost complete access to the undercarriage and having such access you should be able to get in there using a cherry picker while on your feet!  Just a thought....

I posted 2 examples to help explain incase you are not familiar with these jacks.....
1)  picture of 1 design that i like becase you can use the cherry picker for multiple duties.
2)  a link to a site on a much different style that i think would work better for larger vehicles.










						New car jack tilts entire vehicle for easy access
					

Carrying out maintenance on the underneath of your car while at home is not one of the easiest things to accomplish unless you have specialist equipment




					www.geeky-gadgets.com


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## 682bear (Apr 24, 2019)

I'd like to have one of those Land Rovers...

That tilting jack...? Not so much... you'd have to drain all fluids out of the car first... unless you want a huge mess... fuel, oil, brake system, antifreeze, etc.

It would be ok for restoration work, but I already have a rotisserie.




-Bear


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Apr 24, 2019)

682bear said:


> That tilting jack...? Not so much... you'd have to drain all fluids out of the car first... unless you want a huge mess... fuel, oil, brake system, antifreeze, etc.
> -Bear



That may Not be Necessarily so!  For the most part there are ways to cap off the fluid storage tanks for maintenance purposes without spilling or draining them.  However unless your vehicle is equipped with on of those drycell or gel type batteries that can be ran in any position it needs to be removed before tilting.


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## epanzella (Apr 24, 2019)

I've installed many a transfer case and transmission using just a dolly and a truck tube. Take a dolly & put a piece of plywood, then a truck tube, then another piece of plywood. On the top plywood add whatever blocks or shims you need to level the transmission. Roll it under the vehicle and just inflate the truck tube until the bolt  holes line up.


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## matthewsx (Apr 24, 2019)

I like it


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## Bob S. (Apr 24, 2019)

Nick Hacking said:


> Here we are.
> I hope they don't turn out to be upside down again.


It looks like you could use a cherry picker through the door just set the unit on the ground or a wheeled dolly. I've done some  front wheel drive transmissions this way too from under the hood.


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## 682bear (Apr 25, 2019)

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> That may Not be Necessarily so!  For the most part there are ways to cap off the fluid storage tanks for maintenance purposes without spilling or draining them.  However unless your vehicle is equipped with on of those drycell or gel type batteries that can be ran in any position it needs to be removed before tilting.



Fuel, maybe, (unless its equipped with a carburetor), but the engine oil, transmission, and axle(s) all have some sort of vent to prevent pressurizing... the older style master cylinders won't always seal well enough to prevent leakage, and I'm not sure a radiator cap would either... Maybe just my opinion, but I don't think I would try it.

-Bear


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## stupoty (Apr 25, 2019)

682bear said:


> Fuel, maybe, (unless its equipped with a carburetor), but the engine oil, transmission, and axle(s) all have some sort of vent to prevent pressurizing... the older style master cylinders won't always seal well enough to prevent leakage, and I'm not sure a radiator cap would either... Maybe just my opinion, but I don't think I would try it.
> 
> -Bear



You would definitely find out quite quickly once you had it upside down that's for sure 

Stu


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## RJSakowski (Apr 25, 2019)

Nick Hacking said:


> The actual weight quoted depends on whether the handbrake drum and overdrive unit are fitted: around 70 to 75 kg seems to be an accepted figure, say 160 lb.
> 
> RJ: If you can lie down with one of these assemblies on your abdomen I shall buy you a beer and tell all of my friends!
> 
> Nick


That was back in the days when I was young and foolish.  The transmission in question was an automatic with torque converter from a 1958 Buick Roadmaster 75.  It was probably closer to 200lbs. than 100.  I also carried a 364 V8  engine up from my basement to the garage, one step at a time.  It's probably a main contributor to my lower back problems for the past forty years.  

I have also used a 2 x 10 plank about 6 ft. long.  I used a concrete block for a fulcrum on the far end of the plank so I was only lifting about 50 lbs and slid the transmission along the plank until it was positioned properly.  When the transmission was lifted appropriately, I slid another block  on the other side of the transmission.  I could then add cribbing to lift the transmission to the desired height by alternating between class 1 and class 2 levers.  In later year, I just used a floor jack.


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## Nick Hacking (May 4, 2019)

Thanks, folks.

I do like the inner-tube idea. 

My design is evolving in my head, and parts have started arriving from the internet. I think I'm going to end up building a frame under which I can slide my trolley jack (for the main lifting and lowering) but still keep the four little jacks, acting through ball-joints, to adjust the attitude of the gearbox. When it's finished I'll post some images and you can have a good chuckle at my welding.

RJ: you're amazing. I could never have attempted feats like that even when I was young and fit. Don't worry about what you might have done to your back, the published evidence tells us that there's no correlation between spinal trauma and reported pain.  It might be wise to lift a little more cautiously from now on, however....

Kind wishes,

Nick


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