# PM 728VT question



## yota (Jul 16, 2021)

new member here.  retired and got a sudden urge to tinker with metal.   picked up a 1953 South Bend 9A lathe about a year and a half ago and now I'm looking for a mill to play with.  no milling experience.   my question: at 1hp with belt drive and variable speed does the 728VT have enough power and weight?  I will likely be playing with small projects at first but may end up doing more, esp to do with restoring old machinery which sometimes need parts made and also may end up trying to make accessories out of mostly aluminum but possibly some stainless for marine use (I live on the gulf coast of florida).  I just used a lot of words like "may" and "might" so we'll see how it goes.

at age 68 I won't be doing any CNC conversions so that is not a consideration for me at this age I don't want to regret my purchase and need to upgrade in a couple of years.  I like the VT728 as it is made in Taiwan and not china.  it also has some nice features.  but, I wonder if I would be better off with a gearhead mill in the 2 hp range.   more weight for stability, more power and I don't think the lower speeds would be an issue?

although I love old machinery I do not want a Bridgeport or anything that big.  I have the room but just don't want to deal with it.

I've done a LOT of reading on this but I welcome your input.   thanks.


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## Aukai (Jul 16, 2021)

I have a Grizzly G0755, I like that it has a slightly bigger work area. I have a 4" vise toward one end, and I'm able to  clamp other work on the other area without disturbing, and having to re tram the vise. That's my feeling on size.


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 16, 2021)

I'm a retired Tool & Die Maker, purchased a PM25 mill a few years ago and haven't yet found a job too big for it. Granted I'm not rebuilding a Steam Locomotive, but I have worked pieces 18" long on it. I have encountered small problems with moving the head up and down, but with the square column I don't loose X-Y zero, just time.  I would expect you won't have any problems with normal sized pieces.


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## yota (Jul 16, 2021)

Aukai said:


> I have a Grizzly G0755, I like that it has a slightly bigger work area. I have a 4" vise toward one end, and I'm able to  clamp other work on the other area without disturbing, and having to re tram the vise. That's my feeling on size.


that looks like a very capable mill.  on back order like most.


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## mksj (Jul 16, 2021)

Need to think of the work envelope that you need and travel. Two key factors often is the Y travel (you can loose another inch or more from the DRO scale), and sometime even more with a larger vise. The other important factor is the maximum table height to spindle, this is can be a real issue if trying to tap or tooling/chucks that reduce the available height. I have a full size knee and I am constantly maxing out both of these axis and my parts are not that large.

Quite a few people tend to go with the 833-TV which has a Y travel of 11" and a maximum spindle to table height of 21.5" which is getting close to that of the knee but with a smaller foot print. Good speed range, although it is a single speed belt drive which limits the low speed torque. Cranking the head on these heavier bench tops is a real chore so probably consider X and Z motor drives. You can also get by with a bigger vise on the table, all comes down to the type of work you plan to do.


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## yota (Jul 16, 2021)

T Bredehoft said:


> I'm a retired Tool & Die Maker, purchased a PM25 mill a few years ago and haven't yet found a job too big for it. Granted I'm not rebuilding a Steam Locomotive, but I have worked pieces 18" long on it. I have encountered small problems with moving the head up and down, but with the square column I don't loose X-Y zero, just time.  I would expect you won't have any problems with normal sized pieces.



coming from a tool and die maker that is very reassuring.  thanks!


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## yota (Jul 16, 2021)

mksj said:


> Need to think of the work envelope that you need and travel. Two key factors often is the Y travel (you can loose another inch or more from the DRO scale), and sometime even more with a larger vise. The other important factor is the maximum table height to spindle, this is can be a real issue if trying to tap or tooling/chucks that reduce the available height. I have a full size knee and I am constantly maxing out both of these axis and my parts are not that large.
> 
> Quite a few people tend to go with the 833-TV which has a Y travel of 11" and a maximum spindle to table height of 21.5" which is getting close to that of the knee but with a smaller foot print. Good speed range, although it is a single speed belt drive which limits the low speed torque. Cranking the head on these heavier bench tops is a real chore so probably consider X and Z motor drives. You can also get by with a bigger vise on the table, all comes down to the type of work you plan to do.


good point.  I looked at the 883 models, by the time you add the power feeds it is quite a bit over what I want to spend.  The 932M looks interesting and comes with power X and Z for 2650.00 but PM told me over the phone that they have no idea when they will get any of their chinese mills in stock.  they have at least heard from their Taiwanese supplier and are guessing end of august (for now).   thanks.


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## yota (Jul 17, 2021)

any feedback from those who own the 728VT?


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## SRay53TxTn (Jul 18, 2021)

Yota,
I am 60+/retired and wanted to have a lathe and mill in my 1/2 side of my garage - Wife won't give up her garage real estate. I was also limited to 120v so I opted for a PM 1228LB lathe to start with and a year later added the PM728VT mill. These are both my first pieces of equipment for my hobby area and am learning every day and having immense amounts of fun.
I thought about the PM25, however, due to a retirement package payout and selling some old car parts I stepped up to the PM728 after lots of research and conversations with Precision Matthews folks. I have had no issues with the mill on any of the projects and pieces that I've milled on it and very precise for my needs. I have to check my speeds and cutting rates on certain materials, however, great bench mill for my needs and skill level.
Here's a pic of them both in the back corner of my garage. I really spend a lot of time there and am enjoying the heck out of both lathe & mill.

Can get more pics and/or measurements if you need them.
Have fun!


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## yota (Jul 19, 2021)

SRay, great set up you have, very organized.  what do you think of the stand for the 728VT?  I watched a you tube vid and the guy says not to buy the stand as it is tippy or something to that effect.  I was thinking of welding up a stand out of angle iron if that is the case.


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## SRay53TxTn (Jul 19, 2021)

Yota, Thanks for kind words.
I did not have access to a welder or welding supplies/materials at the time of purchase (Covid issues with buddies/suppliers) and was just easier to go with the factory stand. I can see where a wider base would be nice, however, as stated availability and sq footage were holding me back.
The feet that came with it were a little small in the floor contact diameter and I wanted ability to move it around if needed; so I initially installed heavy equipment  leveling legs then onto leveling casters (which the 728 is sitting on now). I've found the casters to work well for my needs and seems very stable and also still have the original OE legs plus some heavy duty threaded legs with 4" diameter feet - just have not felt the need to install them.
My 728 currently has an X power feed, rotary table/chuck, and 4" vise on it (extra weight) and it does not seem tippy (even when I run the motor assembly to top of travel, however most of my project are closer to table. By tippy I'm indicating setting my project parts on the table for setup operations, I'm not to rock it.
Most of my milled project surfaces have a nice even finish, good for my amateur skill level.


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## yota (Jul 19, 2021)

so sounds like the stand is ok but not great.  I appreciate your time in responding.


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## SRay53TxTn (Jul 19, 2021)

Agree, It is not up to the standard of a custom stand, however, pretty good for a factory assembly though.


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## yota (Jul 19, 2021)

they have cast iron stands offered for some of their heavier machines.  I have read good things about those.  they apparently weigh 300 lbs or so.


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## SRay53TxTn (Jul 19, 2021)

Most of them as well as equipment was on BO at my time of order. So I just pulled the trigger on factory unit.


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## yota (Jul 19, 2021)

yeah, I'm in their backorder queue.  just been second guessing if I should have ordered a heavier mill.


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## RetiredRich (Jul 20, 2021)

Hi Yota,

I have the same concern, Unfortunately I don't have much experience with milling machines so I am unable to provide much guidance.

I'm also waiting for the PM728. It seems like the delivery date will be sometime in September. This is giving me way too much time to look over the specs and start wondering if I should go bigger. It's a real dilemma. I keep having to talk myself out of it.

The decision to pick the PM728 came down to:
- Preference for Taiwanese machine
- X and Y travel is sufficient for what I will be doing
- future plan for CNC

I will be milling Stainless Steel for a vacuum chamber so I was concerned about not having enough power. Some members on this forum have reassured me that the PM728 is more than capable.

As for the stand, I decided to go on my own. I never liked the cabinets under my lathe. I find them too wobbly if that makes any sense.  I'd rather have smaller feet which provide less surface on the floor but more pressure which makes thing sturdier.  I also would like to have more adjustment range in height.  I've started a thread on this subject.

SRay: Thank you for those photos. I did not realize that the doors to the cabinets could be on the sides instead of the front.  This opens up new doors (pun intended).

Rich


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## yota (Jul 20, 2021)

thanks Rich.  I emailed yesterday with Lee at PM about delivery updates and received the following reply  "We are expecting a large number of containers in the next few weeks, and so anyone with a backordered machine should be getting the good news soon."

frank


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## yota (Jul 27, 2021)

I just saw that PM did a July 22nd backorder update on this mill saying now expected "late late August".  wonder if that's even likely.  getting impatient.


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## SRay53TxTn (Jul 27, 2021)

My back-order was delayed a couple times as well. They (PM) unfortunately don't have any control over ships, ports, and US customs. However, very good at getting the equipment setup and shipped to end use customer once they have it in warehouse.
I know bla-bla-bla waiting isn't much fun, I was in same situation and felt similarly.


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## yota (Jul 27, 2021)

I know it's not their fault.  just letting off steam.  I'm an American and I'm used to instant gratification lol.  I went with PM because of the service and the warranty.  they have a great reputation.     curious does PM actually open the crates and make sure the product is as advertised or do they just forward the sealed crates to the purchaser if there are no add ons like DRO?  hoping the plague and labor and material shortages in Taiwan haven't affected the quality of manufacturing.


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## Larry$ (Jul 27, 2021)

When I got my Lathe from PM they had opened the crate to install the DRO & taper attachment. Don't know how much "inspecting" they did. About mill sizes: The limit I most often reach is Z clearance. Add up a boring head, tool, work piece, vice. Or rotary table, work piece, drill chuck, drill bit, reamer etc. Z space disappears quickly.


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## yota (Jul 27, 2021)

that is def a factor in decision making.   I am somewhat limited as I don't want a huge Bridgeport or Bridgeport clone in my shop but an RF45 clone would have 5 to 6 inches more from spindle to table.   also more x and y.   I guess it all depend on how far I end up going with this.  thanks for responding.


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## wachuko (Jul 27, 2021)

yota said:


> new member here.  retired and got a sudden urge to tinker with metal.   picked up a 1953 South Bend 9A lathe about a year and a half ago and now I'm looking for a mill to play with.  no milling experience.   my question: at 1hp with belt drive and variable speed does the 728VT have enough power and weight?  I will likely be playing with small projects at first but may end up doing more, esp to do with restoring old machinery which sometimes need parts made and also may end up trying to make accessories out of mostly aluminum but possibly some stainless for marine use (I live on the gulf coast of florida).  I just used a lot of words like "may" and "might" so we'll see how it goes.
> 
> at age 68 I won't be doing any CNC conversions so that is not a consideration and at this age I don't want to regret my purchase and need to upgrade in a couple of years.  I like the VT728 as it is made in Taiwan and not china.  it also has some nice features.  but, I wonder if I would be better off with a gearhead mill in the 2 hp range.   more weight for stability, more power and I don't think the lower speeds would be an issue?
> 
> ...



Sorry for the long and unrelated post...

I see that you are here in Florida!  I got a house in Ocala (last year) that we bought in preparation for retirement.  We are about 12 years away from retirement, but plan to move in about 5 years there...   Much smaller home than we have now (with the kids gone by then, looking to simplify our lives)  but with 1/2 acre so that I can build a small workshop.

Part of the plan is to have an area where I can have my milling and future lathe...   Like you I just want to thinker with metal... and your post struct at what has been in the back of my mind since I started to covert my milling machine to CNC... I am too far into it to turn back... so I will finish it... But I know that I will want to have another milling machine that is fully manual, so I was looking at the PM-728VT as well... unsure if I order it at the same time as the lathe and have it all delivered to Ocala...

Seeing the photo from SRay53TxTn makes me think that I can just have it in the garage in Ocala and leave the workshop for other stuff... I would use it more if it is in the garage... but I digress...

Looking forward to seeing what you get and reading about your experience.

Cheers!


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## yota (Jul 27, 2021)

your post is quite welcome.  I worked in orlando for 30 years or so and retired to the gulf coast about 3 years ago.  I was driving over here to flats fish 3 times a month anyway so I figured why not just live there.  I'm about an hour from ocala.  I managed to find a home with a 30x40 shop with 12 foot ceilings and air conditioning (a big deal here as you know).  when I retired my main goal was to set up the dream shop I always wanted but never had the time or space to have.  I set up a woodworking area first with cabinet saw, bandsaw, jointer and dust control. then I did a metal working area with horizontal bandsaw and welding table.  then a grinding and polishing area and then my 1955 south bend lathe ended up here LOL.    also have several work benches and cabinet storages areas for paint and oils.     the arrangement I did still leaves room in the center to pull in vehicles and boats to work on them.   hoping the mill is the last big addition LOL.  I want to make it clear that I am a beginner with all the metal stuff including welding but striving to improve.   I love old American iron machinery and taking it apart and bringing it back to life.  I do have a couple of Taiwanese and chinese machines but usually avoid them when I can.  The first project I did when I set up my shop was selling my old Taiwanese drill press and finding this on craigslist and cleaning it up.


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## wachuko (Jul 27, 2021)

Beautiful restoration work!  Atlas drill press?

EDIT: EDIT: Nope - see post below.  Still very  nice!!



			http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/51/679.pdf


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## yota (Jul 27, 2021)

no, its a Delta 17" DP600.  got it from the grandson of the original purchaser.  very unusual that an individual would buy one of these industrial drill presses as they were very expensive.  as it was never used in a shop it has very little wear.  the grandson kept it in a semi open dirt floor rural florida shop so I had to work on surface rust and paint finishes.


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## wachuko (Jul 27, 2021)

Wow.  I saw it and saw an Atlas, I stand corrected.

Besides being functional, it is a mechanical work of art with a great history and story to go with it.  Well done.  Thank you for sharing.


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## yota (Jul 27, 2021)

love Art Deco.


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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)

wachuko said:


> Beautiful restoration work!  Atlas drill press?
> 
> EDIT: EDIT: Nope - see post below.  Still very  nice!!
> 
> ...


oops. your link is incorrect.  mine is the 17" Delta model.


			http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/4305.pdf


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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)

this wasn't what I would call a restoration.  if you look closely at the photos, the only parts I painted were the base and the motor.  the head, table and any other painted areas I just cleaned, neutralized the rust to black inert spots and oiled with Corrosion Block.  I prefer to save original finish wherever I can, though its not always possible.  all of the unpainted areas I did have to remove surface rust and polish the metal.  I didn't even need to replace any bearings because this machine was cared for most of its life.


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## wachuko (Jul 28, 2021)

yota said:


> oops. your link is incorrect.  mine is the 17" Delta model.
> 
> 
> http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/4305.pdf


Hahahaha it was correct for the Atlas drill press I thought it was.  That is, until you told me it was actually a Delta.

Thank you for the correct link!

Can we then call it a preservation job?  All I want it to convey was that it came out looking great.

Have a great day!


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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)

here is a full on restoration job.  this is a 1970 USA made bandsaw I found on craigslist.  the old fella was from new york and had placed it in fair condition outside against his new home in Bradenton Florida, sitting on the mulch bed.  he was all perplexed that it had rusted as he had 2 tarps over it.  said it was fine when he stored it that way up north.  welcome to tropical rains and high humidity.


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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)

if you google the address on this nameplate, this company is still in business, still in the same location and still making this saw.  I was able to get every part I needed including bearings, complete kit for the inside of the hydraulic ram and PDF's of owners manual and parts manual.
nice helpful people working there.  they asked me to send them photos when I was done which I did.   I also got the paint code from them for the color they are currently using as I hate the OSHA yellow that the government mandated be put on moving parts guards in that era.


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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)

anyways, disassembled, bead blasted everything, applied metal conditioner, primed with Sherwin Williams Kem Kromik and painted with Sherwin Williams Industrial Enamel.


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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)




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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)




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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)




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## wachuko (Jul 28, 2021)

Wow... that bandsaw is massive!

And yes... they are still around!



			https://wfwells.com/


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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)

wachuko said:


> Wow... that bandsaw is massive!
> 
> And yes... they are still around!
> 
> ...


its about 5 and a half feet long and weighs about 800 lbs.  def dwarfs the harbor freight saws.


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## yota (Jul 28, 2021)

this was today.  93 degrees, humid as hell. blast hood/respirator/long sleeve shirt/jeans/boots/gloves.  my grandson's 21 foot project.  somehow I did all the blasting LOL.


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## bburns0909 (Jul 31, 2021)

yota said:


> any feedback from those who own the 728VT?


I would caution against this mill if you are going to be milling stainless on any consistent basis. I own this mill and have done a couple of stainless projects. It struggled. Just doesn't have enough low end power at the lower speeds that stainless likes. Rigidity isn't enough so chatter is major problem and you'll end up burning through a bunch of cutters. You'd be better off with a 2hp gear head mill. If you are going to stick to aluminum, this mill is very capable and does anything I want.


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## yota (Jul 31, 2021)

thank you.  that is exactly the type of input I was looking for.   and afraid of LOL.  I have sent an email to PM enquiring on when they expect their 932M to arrive.  think I am going to make a switch.


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## wachuko (Jul 31, 2021)

Oh wow… that is great feedback.  

I am switching as well.


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## yota (Jul 31, 2021)

I just noticed that PM has raised the prices on the Taiwanese mills on the mill/drill page of their website.


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## wrmiller (Jul 31, 2021)

wachuko said:


> Oh wow… that is great feedback.
> 
> I am switching as well.


Really? You don't know what specific material was cut, you don't know the depth of cut, the feed rate, nor the type/size of the cutter. That post didn't tell you anything other than he did "a couple of stainless projects". 

I've milled stainless on smaller machines than a 728 just fine. But maybe I was just lucky. YMMV of course.


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## wachuko (Jul 31, 2021)

wrmiller said:


> Really? You don't know what specific material was cut, you don't know the depth of cut, the feed rate, nor the type/size of the cutter. That post didn't tell you anything other than he did "a couple of stainless projects".
> 
> I've milled stainless on smaller machines than a 728 just fine. But maybe I was just lucky. YMMV of course.



First of all, I am a newbie that does not know squat... I have had great results with soft materials on G0704... but any hard material would give me a fight.  I know that the bulk of it is my lack of knowledge... but if I am buying another one, the price difference for something a bit stronger that another forum member has been able to compare, well... it is just the slight push I need to buy a beefier machine.  Add to that the ability to handle a little bit larger pieces... 

The PM-728VT with DRO and stand is 4,300.00 (without shipping)

The PM-932M-PDFw/3axDRO and cast iron stand is 4,038.00 (without shipping)

And I am not getting rid of the G0704 after I finish the CNC conversion...

That was my reasoning...


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## yota (Jul 31, 2021)

wrmiller said:


> Really? You don't know what specific material was cut, you don't know the depth of cut, the feed rate, nor the type/size of the cutter. That post didn't tell you anything other than he did "a couple of stainless projects".
> 
> I've milled stainless on smaller machines than a 728 just fine. But maybe I was just lucky. YMMV of course.


as I said in my intro, I'm a complete newby to this.  it says you are the  chief tinkerer so apparently you know what you're talking about, I sure don't.  I just don't want to outgrow a majorly (to me) expensive machine and have regret.  I hate having regret.


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## wrmiller (Jul 31, 2021)

As far as I know, it's still legal in this country to spend our own money as we see fit. So buy what you want, and enjoy it. 

I was simply pointing out that the post you are referencing didn't really tell you anything. And that's OK as well I guess.

Enjoy your new machines guys.


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## wachuko (Jul 31, 2021)

wrmiller said:


> As far as I know, it's still legal in this country to spend our own money as we see fit. So buy what you want, and enjoy it.
> 
> I was simply pointing out that the post you are referencing didn't really tell you anything. And that's OK as well I guess.
> 
> Enjoy your new machines guys.


It was not about how we spend the money…. I really appreciate the feedback.  Just sharing some of my reasoning.

Like the OP (@yota ) , I do not want to regret the purchase….

If you have a model recommendation that would be better and in the same price range, would love to know.


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## wrmiller (Jul 31, 2021)

wachuko said:


> It was not about how we spend the money…. I really appreciate the feedback.  Just sharing some of my reasoning.
> 
> Like the OP (@yota ) , I do not want to regret the purchase….
> 
> If you have a model recommendation that would be better and in the same price range, would love to know.


There have been TONs of posts asking 'what machine should I buy?' or something like that.

I don't post here much anymore as I got burned out after a few years of trying to answer the same questions over and over again. 

In order for anyone to give a recommendation there are questions that need to be asked.

What do you want to use the machine for?

What size material (i.e., small/medium/large) do you want to work on? (gives an idea of work envelope required)

What types of material do you want to work with?

What accuracy level of the machine is acceptable, e.g. Taiwan or Chinese manufacture?

How important is the machine warranty?

And so on and so forth.

Even with honest answers to these questions, you are relying on the knowledge (or lack thereof) and personal preferences of the person offering their advice. And these are (including myself) people who you don't know, and have no way of knowing just how well their recommendations/opinions will jive with your personal preferences, wants, and desires.

I know what you're going through, believe me. I start out years ago with a little sherline lathe and mill to learn on. Then I got into competitive pistol shooting and wanted to modify/build 1911 type pistols. I was told by several 'professional' machinists that this couldn't be done on my little 'toys'. So I went ahead and built my first competition pistol on my little toys. Not without having issues though. They are very small machines better suited to making pens than pistols out of hardened carbon and stainless steels. LOL...

Over the years I bought bigger and bigger machines as I could afford them. I learned that a smaller quality machine produced better results than a larger, more cheaply made machine. Everything is a tradeoff.

Can you give an idea of what you want to do with this mill?


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## yota (Jul 31, 2021)

wrmiller, I asked for opinions at the beginning of this thread and certainly welcome yours as much as anyone's.  as I said in the 1st post, I'm completely inexperienced in this field and have very little experience in metal working period.  I have less than a year or so on a lathe.  I actually don't know what I will be working on exactly. just want to learn, don't really even know why.  I retired and found an interest in this for some reason.  I've done a bit of rehabbing of old American machinery and I guess this is maybe an extension of that.  I live on the gulf coast and fish saltwater flats and also still ride dirt bikes pretty well for a 68 year old.  I will be tinkering at first with making some small parts for boats and fishing and maybe for my bikes.  I'd say aluminum would be the majority of my projects but stainless is def a possibility.  as well as steel parts for the things I restore.

for all I know I may lose interest at some point or I may go full on as I usually do with my interests.  a long tome ago I stopped buying junk tools as I always ended up getting something better once I realized their shortcomings (I know the 728VT is far from junk).  just don't like continuing down that same path.   to be honest, the 728VT is probably more than I need.  having this on back order has just given me too much time to read about others experiences and second guess my choice.   actually my 1st choice was the 932M but I was told that they would not be available for 3 to 4 months longer than the Taiwanese mills.  that turned out not to be the case apparently.   based on that info I put a deposit on the 728VT.


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## jwmelvin (Jul 31, 2021)

I bought a PM-30MV and it is a little lighter/smaller than I expected. I now have a Bridgeport clone too. I’d like to CNC the -30mv. It’s not that the -30 wasn’t big/heavy enough for much I needed, but certain things are more pleasant to do on the larger machine. And there are some more options with its bigger and more flexible configuration.


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## wrmiller (Aug 1, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> I bought a PM-30MV and it is a little lighter/smaller than I expected. I now have a Bridgeport clone too. I’d like to CNC the -30mv. It’s not that the -30 wasn’t big/heavy enough for much I needed, but certain things are more pleasant to do on the larger machine. And there are some more options with its bigger and more flexible configuration.


Absolutely! Everything is a trade off. I can do things on smaller machines, but I (most of the time) can do it easier on a larger machine. My machines (PM935T and PM1340GT) are not large machines. And to be honest, they are larger than I really need. But... having that articulating head and knee on my 'baby' bridgeport makes some setups way easier than it would be on a bench/bed mill. And I wanted a Taiwan mill as I was tired of the Chinese machines.

My 1340 was the smallest new Taiwan lathe that I could find (at that time) that had a Norton gearbox for threading along with the other features I wanted.

There is no one way to accomplish something. IMO of course.


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## yota (Aug 1, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> I bought a PM-30MV and it is a little lighter/smaller than I expected. I now have a Bridgeport clone too. I’d like to CNC the -30mv. It’s not that the -30 wasn’t big/heavy enough for much I needed, but certain things are more pleasant to do on the larger machine. And there are some more options with its bigger and more flexible configuration.


and the PM30MV is 160lbs heavier and 1 hp more powerful than the 728VT.


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## addertooth (Aug 1, 2021)

I derive amusement from much of this banter.  Everyone DOES have an experience which backs up their opinion. For many novices, they start out with a smaller and lighter mill, BEFORE they have figured out cutting tool ideal RPMs, Ideal feed rates, and have figured out how much better quality-designed cutting tools make.  They have a learning curve, which can be steep for some materials.

With cutting tools, the correct type of face (or flute design), is only Perfect for a specific range of materials. Coatings matter a lot, as most coatings on the cutting bit is optimized for a specific range of material as well.  For lighter machines, having asymmetrical flutes reduce chatter (for example).  Most people start out cutting at too light of a rate, and end up burning up bits.  They don't realize a heavier rate actually extends tool life.  Too often people new to milling are horrified at spending 40+ dollars for a single end-mill.  They don't realize it will make more cuts than four $20 end-mills combined. 

All of these factors impact "the impression" people have with their "starter machine".    After a couple years of experience, I bet many people could "fall back" on their starter machines, and produce much better results.  On the Lathe side of the house, I am always impressed with the cuts and finishes that some of the "Sherline Folks" are able to produce with what appears to be a very dainty and under-powered lathe.  There is clearly more to this than meets the eye.  However, bigger/heavier/stiffer machines are good at masking some of the mistakes in set-up of novices.  And perhaps that should be weighed as a serious benefit. Or, in other words, the bigger machines grant you a greater margin of error, and still produce a satisfactory result.


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## wrmiller (Aug 1, 2021)

addertooth said:


> I derive amusement from much of this banter.  Everyone DOES have an experience which backs up their opinion. For many novices, they start out with a smaller and lighter mill, BEFORE they have figured out cutting tool ideal RPMs, Ideal feed rates, and have figured out how much better quality-designed cutting tools make.  They have a learning curve, which can be steep for some materials.
> 
> With cutting tools, the correct type of face (or flute design), is only Perfect for a specific range of materials. Coatings matter a lot, as most coatings on the cutting bit is optimized for a specific range of material as well.  For lighter machines, having asymmetrical flutes reduce chatter (for example).  Most people start out cutting at too light of a rate, and end up burning up bits.  They don't realize a heavier rate actually extends tool life.  Too often people new to milling are horrified at spending 40+ dollars for a single end-mill.  They don't realize it will make more cuts than four $20 end-mills combined.
> 
> All of these factors impact "the impression" people have with their "starter machine".    After a couple years of experience, I bet many people could "fall back" on their starter machines, and produce much better results.  On the Lathe side of the house, I am always impressed with the cuts and finishes that some of the "Sherline Folks" are able to produce with what appears to be a very dainty and under-powered lathe.  There is clearly more to this than meets the eye.  However, bigger/heavier/stiffer machines are good at masking some of the mistakes in set-up of novices.  And perhaps that should be weighed as a serious benefit. Or, in other words, the bigger machines grant you a greater margin of error, and still produce a satisfactory result.


I suspect you are correct in some cases, but then I run across people who form opinions based solely on what someone told them, or what they read on the Internet. But hey, everyone (including myself) is entitled to their opinions.

I also find it amusing how people equate machine weight with machine rigidity, with no reference to design (or lack thereof). But everyone has to start somewhere. I did.


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## addertooth (Aug 1, 2021)

WRMiller,
Yep, there are more facets than I mentioned.  My post was already too long, and was at risk of being wearying. 
Good to see your post, near-neighbor.


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## yota (Aug 1, 2021)

except in this case we had a guy who owns the very machine we are discussing and he stated what he feels is its lack of rigidity with certain metals.  apparently you don't think he knows what he's talking about.  maybe he is inexperienced.

reading and talking to others are the only things we newbs have to go by.  at least we aren't assuming we know it all and are asking the questions.


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## wrmiller (Aug 1, 2021)

yota said:


> except in this case we had a guy who owns the very machine we are discussing and he stated what he feels is its lack of rigidity with certain metals.  apparently you don't think he knows what he's talking about.  maybe he is inexperienced.
> 
> reading and talking to others are the only things we newbs have to go by.  at least we aren't assuming we know it all and are asking the questions.


How could I know if he knows what he is talking about? There were no specific details given about his 'projects', i.e., what he did or how he did it.

I didn't draw any conclusions, but you apparently are as you are drawing conclusions about what I think. I simply stated that there were no details about his projects. This was my post:

"
Really? You don't know what specific material was cut, you don't know the depth of cut, the feed rate, nor the type/size of the cutter. That post didn't tell you anything other than he did "a couple of stainless projects".

I've milled stainless on smaller machines than a 728 just fine. But maybe I was just lucky. YMMV of course.
"

That is all I said. And I will stop here. Have fun with your new machine. 

(this kind of stuff is why I stopped posting here...)


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## addertooth (Aug 1, 2021)

Yota,
For the record I also own a PM728-VT.  I started Machining back in 1980.  I was 11 years in the Army, and had the 44e MOS (Machinist).  
I will acknowledge that each person's experience creates a different lens to view their beliefs.  There is a measure of validity to everyone's observations.   I believe people tend to be true to their experiences, so I tend to not disregard any opinion without a full view of their life experience.


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## yota (Aug 1, 2021)

sounds like a pretty solid resume.  are you happy with your 728?  does it do everything you need it to?


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## addertooth (Aug 1, 2021)

yota said:


> sounds like a pretty solid resume.  are you happy with your 728?  does it do everything you need it to?


Yes, but my scale of use is not making large parts.   I selected it to be large enough to be a partner for the other smaller equipment in my shop.   I would not try to do Head work on a big block v-8, but I would consider perfectly fine for headwork on a motorcycle.  For a reference, my lathe handles much smaller parts than this Mill. But I looked at all my potential operations, and realized the lathe didn't need to handle parts as big, as the mill potentially needed to.  I bought the bare-bone mill, and added the X-Axis feed, and a third-party Digital read out (Precision Matthews did not have the DRO option, or the stand in stock)  The lack of a stand originally displeased me, until I realized it opened the door for me to make my own steel table to support other tasks too (like a serious vice, which will use the weight of the mill to stabilize the table).  

The first question you always ask before you buy any machining tool (lathes, mills, shapers, saws, etc), is "how big (x,y,z) of a piece of material will I ever want to machine. Then think about the "kind" of thing you want to do.  Does the tool support all of the machining operation I will likely need to make that part.   This mill met all of my needs, but you will need to make that determination for yourself. 

I also Weld, so that helps with the equation. So, if I want to make something Big, can it be fabricated in reasonable length pieces (or be clamped and allowed to hang off the tool table), and process/machine the critical parts of the item.    Sometimes the real art of fabrication can be the ability to break down a project into "bite sized chunks".  Then I weld the pieces together, that also reduces the amount of stock needed to make some shapes.


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## yota (Aug 2, 2021)

I just got off the phone with Jeff at PM and made the switch to the 932M-PDF.  it will be in next week and will ship the 16th.  it comes with PDF, X axis power feed and Z axis positioning motor.   I didn't really want the PDF but they are not getting any of the non PDF model for a few months apparently.

Thanks to everyone who gave advice and participated in this decision and you'll be happy that the whining will now end.


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