# My $2000.00 military surplus  mill is alive



## RobertHaas (Feb 7, 2018)

I posted up about getting this mill (My first) a couple months ago. Hve asked lots of dumb questions and recieved so much great advice from you folks.

My Mill is a 1986 DEBER Universal Mill with both a traditional vertical spindle/quill and a horizontal spindle to boot.   It has power to all three AXIS and as far as we can tell it has never been actually set up and ran, or if it has it was more to demonstrate it worked, there is no wear on anything and the cosmoline covering just about everything was a true clue to the history.

So after we homed it, and trammed it. (It was zeroed with no need of any adjustment) I  had purchased a rotary phase converter and wired that up. I then  spent several days cleaning up everything.

I have a a DRO on it that took me a full day to install and have been making chips for a week.


I am so happy.


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## Bamban (Feb 7, 2018)

Wow, what a snag!


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## dlane (Feb 7, 2018)

Homed it ?  Is it CNC ? , didn’t see a y handwheel and what dose the handwheel up top by motor do.
Nice find.


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## westsailpat (Feb 7, 2018)

Score ! I always wanted one of those hor./vert. mills when I had my shop


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## Groundhog (Feb 7, 2018)

Looks pretty sitting there, spotless with the shiny (new?) Kurt vise on it!


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## RobertHaas (Feb 7, 2018)

dlane said:


> Homed it ?  Is it CNC ? , didn’t see a y handwheel and what dose the handwheel up top by motor do.
> Nice find.




The two forward facing fixtures below the table are the Y and Z "wheels" 

Homed it in my vernacular was to set it in place insuring it is level and stable. (Did it with a selfmade platform.)


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## brino (Feb 7, 2018)

Wow, congratulations!
That looks like a fantastic machine, and as you said "like new".
Have Fun!

-brino


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## Suzuki4evr (Feb 7, 2018)

I'm jealous. Gongrats and enjoy.


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## Martin W (Feb 7, 2018)

You did well my friend. 
Cheers
Martin


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## Wreck™Wreck (Feb 7, 2018)

dlane said:


> H and what dose the handwheel up top by motor do.
> Nice find.



Spindle speed


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## 34_40 (Feb 7, 2018)

Wow, that looks just great..  color me green.


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## ACHiPo (Feb 8, 2018)

Fantastic.  Oh and you suck! ;-)


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## Blucllrplt (Feb 8, 2018)

Great looking machine!  Sure you will enjoy it!


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## RobertHaas (Feb 8, 2018)

Just found a fourth feed drive.

The spindle has a drive that raises and lowers it and even has a built in clutch mechanism. 

Wonder if it would work for power tapping? 


Another interesting feature. I can reverse the spindle motor mechanically and electrically. It has a forward reverse transmision (Two ranges) and I can also reverse the spindle motor at the main control panel. 

I am learning as I go as there is no manual for this machine.


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## RobertHaas (Feb 8, 2018)

Can anyone suggest the type and weight of oil I should use in the 3 separate gear boxes?

I have oil in there that was in it when I started this thing up, I fear it is 30 years old. 

Through the site glass it is still somewhat transparent and is above the add line. However I reallly would like to do a full oil change. The spec sheet on the side states to use "lubricating oil"    Uhm yea, I got that.   the viscosity is pure gibberish to me.


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## ACHiPo (Feb 8, 2018)

9.5 cSt at 40C looks to be about iso 10 which seems really runny!
https://www.glennbennettcorp.com/hubfs/PDF/Viscosity-Reference.pdf

This reference for German lubricants seems to make a little more sense:
https://www.klueber.com/ecomaXL/files/Speciality-lubricants-for-machine-tools.pdf


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## Bob Korves (Feb 8, 2018)

ISO 10 is correct for the specified oil.  You should be looking for an anti wear (AW) hydraulic oil.  Call your nearest petroleum products distributor (bulk plant.)  Chevron/Texaco sells it, and probably others as well.  The label says to change every 2000 hours, that machine sure does not look like it has had more than a small percentage of that use.  Mineral oil does not go bad sitting in a tank.  I would draw out a sample and see what it looks like and if it appears contaminated.


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## middle.road (Feb 8, 2018)

ISO 10?! That does seem awfully thin.
I would have to wonder if a decent ISO32 Transmission and Hydraulic (Farm Store) wouldn't be better.


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## mksj (Feb 8, 2018)

It would not be good if you were off by a factor of 10, cST 9.5 at 40C is ISO10, but at 100C is ISO100. I would take a little out, if it pours like water then it is ISO10, if slightly viscous then it is more likely ISO100. Typically low speed gearboxes for drives would take an ISO100 or 75-90W gear oil, I have only seen an ISO10 "spindle oil" used for high speed applications "high speed bearings, machine tool spindles and some high performance hydraulics".  If this is for drive gears,  ISO10 would peobably be too thin to coat the gears.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 8, 2018)

ISO 10 is correct for the specification on the tag of the machine.

The plain bearing spindle on my B&S surface grinder uses Velocite #3 which is ISO 2.  So do some big CNC machine spindles. No, that is not a typo.  ISO 2.  It is thinner than kerosene.  If you use something thicker you WILL overheat and lock up the spindle.  They are not making new spindles for antique machines...


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## middle.road (Feb 8, 2018)

Ah I understand now. ISO2 - pheew. I thought we were looking at gear boxes, not spindles. I got confused.
Thinking gears and the pressures that they develope while running lead me to my suggestion for ISO32.


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## RJSakowski (Feb 8, 2018)

cSt stands for centistokes = mm^2/sec.  SAE 30 wt oil has a viscosity of about 10 cSt at 100ºC.


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## mksj (Feb 8, 2018)

Bob Korves said:


> ISO 10 is correct for the specification on the tag of the machine


The specification is given as 9.5 cST, so it is only ISO10 if the spec is at 40C, at 100C it is ISO100. Since it clearly stated that it is 3 gear boxes, we are not talking spindles but  gear boxes. Check the oil currently in the tanks, get it correct or you could eventually end up with a nice paper weight.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 8, 2018)

Mark, you are correct about that, but a gearbox does not run at 100 C, and if it did, it would not be for long.  So why would they spec oil in a way it would not be used, or at least make the specification show that?  But, to be safe, I agree with Mark, check and see what the viscosity of the oil in the mill looks like, and hope that it is oil that meets the original specs...

Is there a model specific service manual or users group out there to find good answers from?


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## middle.road (Feb 8, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> cSt stands for centistokes = mm^2/sec.  SAE 30 wt oil has a viscosity of about 10 cSt at 100ºC.


I woke up this morning and did not know about centistokes. -Cool- 
Learn something new everyday and go to bed more knowledgeable than when you awoke.

That's why it was still packed in cosmoline - maintenance couldn't figure out what lube to use.


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## RobertHaas (Feb 8, 2018)

you kids are scaring me. 

30 year old oil should not be used as a reference. I have no idea how many heat cycles it went through just sitting in its warehouse over the last 32 years. Heck condensation is a factor. 

So what oil should I buy?


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## Bob Korves (Feb 8, 2018)

How about contacting this company and see if you can get an answer or some sources of information?
http://www.machinedeal.com/en/machines-by-brand/deber/


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## mksj (Feb 8, 2018)

Bob, you are making an assumption about the temperature specification that might be applicable today, but may not have been at the time of manufacture. If you look at differential and manual transmission oil it has the same specs at 100C, but their operating temperatures are nowhere near 100C. All I am suggestion is to get it correct one way or another, we should not guess at what we think it might be spec'd as. So as you indicated contact the manufacturer or try to find a manual, otherwise try a poor test, ISO10 should pour like water.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 9, 2018)

mksj said:


> Bob, you are making an assumption about the temperature specification that might be applicable today, but may not have been at the time of manufacture. If you look at differential and manual transmission oil it has the same specs at 100C, but their operating temperatures are nowhere near 100C. All I am suggestion is to get it correct one way or another, we should not guess at what we think it might be spec'd as. So as you indicated contact the manufacturer or try to find a manual, otherwise try a poor test, ISO10 should pour like water.


You have won me over, Mark.  Robert, does the oiling system only run the gearbox(es), or is there a spindle or other things powered by the hydraulic system.


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## middle.road (Feb 9, 2018)

A casual search for a manual during dinner in front of the 'puter resulted in disappointment. -so far

</begin tongue-in-cheek>
I'm thinking that since it's 2018 and this is one of 'unicorn' type of urban legends of a surplus machine still packed in cosmoline,
perhaps this machine is actually from a parallel universe and somehow crossed boundries and ended up in Robert's shop...
</end tongue-in-cheek>


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 9, 2018)

What a DEAL!   Nice looking machine.  Can you link or tell me how to go back and read about your  adventure to get your mill?   I have thought about bidding on Government Surplus.  It seemed so far away and they charge loading fee's, many pictures of machines sitting in the desert without a tarp, etc.


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## RobertHaas (Feb 9, 2018)

middle.road said:


> A casual search for a manual during dinner in front of the 'puter resulted in disappointment. -so far
> 
> </begin tongue-in-cheek>
> I'm thinking that since it's 2018 and this is one of 'unicorn' type of urban legends of a surplus machine still packed in cosmoline,
> ...



It is a difficult situation. DEBER was still in business in Italy as late as the late1990s however they are no longer contactable. 

As far as the "systems" the three separate oil tanks serve it looks like the knee tank serves the table and all axis, the top tank serves the spindle /quill and quill drive,  and the main reservoir serves the horizontal spindle and perhaps lubricates the coolant pumps.

Being I see no oil filters I am assuming none of these systems are actually being pumped or circulated and probably operate in a splash style delivery system. 

I did extract a small amount to look at it and by the feel test it is medium to light weight, like a 10 weight motor oil. The smell test was not nice, smells terrible, sort of a cross between rotten meat and moldy wood. it is  yellowish in color and is still pretty transparent.


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## RobertHaas (Feb 9, 2018)

Richard King 2 said:


> What a DEAL!   Nice looking machine.  Can you link or tell me how to go back and read about your  adventure to get your mill?   I have thought about bidding on Government Surplus.  It seemed so far away and they charge loading fee's, many pictures of machines sitting in the desert without a tarp, etc.




Simple tale actually. I live a few miles from Fort Ord. A large military base that was the home to one of largest training facilities during the Viet Nam war. It was decommissioned in the 90's  and the liquidation of it's assets began with public and private auctions. At one of those auctions in 2001 this mill was bought by a local individual and he transported to a local storage facility planning to set it up at his home.  He never did. It sat in storage for 15 years. Still had the US Army tarps wrapped around it. His Nephew sort of inherited/bought it and ran out of money before he could get it set up,  I bought it in the same condition as it was auctioned at 16 years earlier.


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## middle.road (Feb 9, 2018)

Richard King 2 said:


> What a DEAL!   Nice looking machine.  Can you link or tell me how to go back and read about your  adventure to get your mill?   I have thought about bidding on Government Surplus.  It seemed so far away and they charge loading fee's, many pictures of machines sitting in the desert without a tarp, etc.


Starts here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/thr...20-swivel-head-ram-type-universal-mill.64316/
And for machines sitting outside without protection see this -=-LINK-=-
A new member here, @*PaulWestSki* , bought one of each.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 9, 2018)

RobertHaas said:


> It is a difficult situation. DEBER was still in business in Italy as late as the late1990s however they are no longer contactable.
> 
> As far as the "systems" the three separate oil tanks serve it looks like the knee tank serves the table and all axis, the top tank serves the spindle /quill and quill drive,  and the main reservoir serves the horizontal spindle and perhaps lubricates the coolant pumps.
> 
> ...


Simply from your description of what the oil lubricates, and ignoring the oil requirement placard completely, I would suggest something like AW32 hydraulic oil.  I did not see anything in your description that made me think "high speed" or "tight passages."  I also do not expect "extreme pressure" on gears and such.  I looked a bit online for a manual as well, no joy.  I think you need to make the call, Robert...


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## RJSakowski (Feb 9, 2018)

I was under the impression that SAE oil weight was determined by the cSt value @ 100ºC.  The oil is defined by that viscosity even though it isn't used at that temperature on the assumption that straight weight oils all behave in a similar fashion regarding their temperature related viscosity characteristics.   ISO oil weight is the viscosity in centistokes (cSt) @ 40ºC.  An ISO 100 oil is equivalent to an SAE 30 wt. oil.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 9, 2018)

This is what I usually go by, and give it no further thought:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
But, I have not paid any real attention to the temperature differences before and read the fine print.


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