# My next CNC project - a CNC router



## DavidR8

I've been jonesing for a CNC router for a while now.
Two main criteria
1) it had to fit on a 2' x3' table...my welding table.
2) it had to be able to mill aluminum with decent results.
Looked at all the options from OpenBuilds, to Scienci to DIY.
On a DIY CNC Facebook group I ran across the PrintNC design. Scaleable, open source, (I'm a big proponent of open source), fully supported by a user/builder base.
https://threedesign.store/

The preferred system for the machine is LinuxCNC. I'm complete Linux noob let alone LinuxCNC. GRBL is another option but I wanted to go with the tried and true. I found a cheap used Dell desktop tonight and installed Linux and LinuxCNC.
Well I tried to...until I ran into a problem.
Remember that user base? One kind fellow walked me through command-line inputs to delete disk partitions like I was an old hand.
And it worked. I have the control PC all setup.
On to the building of the machine.


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## Braeden P

I'm gonna watch this thread!


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## kb58

Youtube's This Old Tony made a super heavy duty CNC router, and even his had issues with cutting aluminum. Having a rigid assembly is super critical. Also, if I recall correctly, he had issues with the cutter loading up with aluminum, perhaps because it couldn't be run slow enough. It's been a long time since I wanted that series so you might want to review it.


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## DavidR8

kb58 said:


> Youtube's This Old Tony made a super heavy duty CNC router, and even his had issues with cutting aluminum. Having a rigid assembly is super critical. Also, if I recall correctly, he had issues with the cutter loading up with aluminum, perhaps because it couldn't be run slow enough. It's been a long time since I wanted that series so you might want to review it.



I have watched that series. I’m not sure what the challenges were for Tony as the machine certainly looked beefy enough to have minimal deflection. 
What I’ve seen if the design I’m building is that it has no problem with aluminum. Stainless seems to be doable too.


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## graham-xrf

@DavidR8
Take a moment, and step into Linux. I have never regretted it.
Somehow you tread the road I want to go. My first try at something CNC will be to make some additions to my mill drill, but YT is full of home projects that put together CNC routers using linear slide bearings and either stepper or servo motors.

I guess I got interested when I saw Stefan Gotteswinter's "More Cnc Router Adventures". I think he also uses LinuxCNC. The nice thing about that is you can have it go full blast on a Raspberry Pi 4B, but for most folk, an old notebook computer is OK - and you get the screen built in. Some lightweight Linux distros zip along so quick they can make an old computer feel like a later generation one.

I'll be interested to see where you go with this one.


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## DavidR8

graham-xrf said:


> @DavidR8
> Take a moment, and step into Linux. I have never regretted it.
> Somehow you tread the road I want to go. My first try at something CNC will be to make some additions to my mill drill, but YT is full of home projects that put together CNC routers using linear slide bearings and either stepper or servo motors.
> 
> I guess I got interested when I saw Stefan Gotteswinter's "More Cnc Router Adventures". I think he also uses LinuxCNC. The nice thing about that is you can have it go full blast on a Raspberry Pi 4B, but for most folk, an old notebook computer is OK - and you get the screen built in. Some lightweight Linux distros zip along so quick they can make an old computer feel like a later generation one.
> 
> I'll be interested to see where you go with this one.


Thanks Graham, I intend to dig into Linux and LinuxCNC as that's the preferred control software for this machine. One thing I've learned is that LinuxCNC is a real-time application and that laptops are not recommended because there is too much latency. I've watched several folks try to make them work and they never succeed. That said it does not take much computing power to run so almost any Intel based machine will work.
That said, I run my CNC plasma cutter (totally different use case) from a laptop running GRBL on an Arduino Uno board so a very different animal.


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## graham-xrf

Latency - It depends which distro, and it depends how one sets up the kernel cycle. You can set the task scheduling latency, which is something routinely done. Even within the distribution you have chosen, you can head to the software install tool, and install either the low latency, or the real-time kernel. The chances that you would seriously need to do this are low.  This is what goes on for those doing audio applications and professional video editing.

At least for Ubuntu-based systems, there are "regular kernel", then the "-prempt kernel" available for 64-bit systems (known as amd64).
If that is not enough, or you have a 32-bit laptop, then there is the "-low latency" kernel.
If that one is not enough, you have the "-rt kernel" which adjust the schedule even more, but can challenge stability.
If it it is not stable enough, there is a special kernel written for this, the "-realtime" kernel.

*Speed & Accuracy*
I have used regular laptops running Linux to track low earth orbiting satellites where the drives had X-Y axes instead of Alt-Az. Each servomotor has 8192 per rev for speed resolution, and Renishaw 26-bit absolute feedbacks, of which we used 24-bits, for position resolution. We updated the demand at 40Hz, smoothed, and predictive. That's 1/16,77,216 of a turn. That's 1/46603 of a degree, or about 13 arc-seconds. The servos in full speed move, close the loop continuously to hang onto the satellite with about 0.02 degrees following error. When they stop on a geostationary sat, it's hard to measure the error.

It's damn difficult to find and hang on to these things if the dish gain is high. It's not like a wide beam dish on the side of a house! One has to know where they are, how fast they move, and worst of all, you have to get that position at an exact celestial time. So you use a Linux program to sync up the computer clock to NTP and the NIST standard so you can know the PC clock servo control is within 300uS of actual. That a simple, relatively slow PC can drive two servo-systems to an accuracy beyond what a  machining CNC system ever needs, in real time, makes me think that if these are "not recommended", then they are maybe doing it wrong. Horrors, maybe LinuxCNC is inefficiently written? Somehow, I don't think so.

Nor do the machines need to be Intel-based. I happen to have a Intel i7 860 on the PC here, but AMD types work just fine. Even the Raspian on the Raspberry Pi using an ARM RiSC processor in a BroadCom CPU seems to manage OK.

My point is, CNC has been around for many years, using computing that, by modern standards was old and slow. Almost any PC younger than about 2010 would look "fast" to this stuff. So I don't understand why CNC is so hungry. Maybe I now have to learn what are all the new CNC loads that now challenge the computer latency.


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## DavidR8

I definitely don’t claim to be an expert in CNC or Linux. Most days I have a hard time spelling CNC. 

All I can say is that the first activity after installing LinuxCNC is running a latency test. 
I’m planning to use a Mesa Ethernet board because I don’t have a parallel port on my machine. Apparently Ethernet boards can handle more latency than the parallel ports. 
Absolutely no idea why.


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## spumco

DavidR8 said:


> Apparently Ethernet boards can handle more latency than the parallel ports


Yep.  The FGPA chips on the Mesa cards handle the time-sensitive step/pulse stuff.  The Mesa boards are NOT 'motion controllers' like with Mach3 and the smoothstepper boards, or UCCNC boards, or similar things.  There's no buffer, and all trajectory calcs are done on the computer/Rpi.

This means that any latency - uneven command timing - is sorted out on the Mesa board and what goes out to the motor drives (pulses, or voltage changes for analog drives) is very even.

The ESS and other motion controllers have a buffer because Windows is not 'real time', and the timing of commands is not precise enough for motion purposes.

Keep in mind that I'm not an expert by any stretch.  My first Lcnc conversion is in progress at the moment, and I'm finding it painful.

As for the router...  The gantry and head are everything when it comes to stiffness (and resulting lack of chatter).  I'd suggest staying away from extruded aluminum profiles despite the temptation as they're so easy to work with.  Square or rectangle steel tube - or even aluminum - is better.  Remember that steel is 3x stiffer than aluminum.

Make it heavy and stiff, and with the small size you intend you should have no problems driving it around with ballscrews at a decent speed.


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## 7milesup

Just thinking out loud here...
I would love to convert my mill to CNC.  Or possibly do what you are doing Dave and build a small-ish platform CNC.  Or do both.  So little time...
I am curious about the Linux control platform.  In one of the other conversion threads on this forum I had mentioned utilizing Linux and was offered a rebuttal as to why it was not the best choice and to use a different control platform.  I wish I could remember what the reasoning was.

I have some experience messing around with a large Shop Sabre (Shop Sabre) cutting aluminum.  We use a mist system on it which is essential for cutting in aluminum.  Without it, the cutter will load up nearly instantly and most likely break, especially if using carbide.  Two flute cutter also.

I have considered the Grunblau CNC.  I really like his design.  *https://www.grunblau.com/* Scroll down to the bottom of his page to see his CNC. Also a build thread here *https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-router-table-machines/175897-cnc.html*

*EDIT:  *Just looked at PrintNC and that looks awesome! Love the linear rails.


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## macardoso

Just an extra data point here.

I've used Mach 3 since 2010 and Mach 4 since 2016. I'm very happy with the system performance and while it is not "real-time" like Linux, in practice with good hardware there is no difference. I run an Ethernet Smoothstepper motion controller with Allen Bradley AC servos and get very high motion control fidelity. From a software perspective it is reliable and easy to configure. There is a good online support community. Mach 4 is lightyears ahead of Mach 3. 

My favorite aspect of Mach 4 is the screen and script customizability. I was able to add code to the control which continuously sends commands out the RS232 serial port to query the servo drives for diagnostics, then reads the results and displays them on-screen with graphics. This is not native functionality in the software but rather fully custom code. The screen can be made to look however you want too.


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## DavidR8

macardoso said:


> Just an extra data point here.
> 
> I've used Mach 3 since 2010 and Mach 4 since 2016. I'm very happy with the system performance and while it is not "real-time" like Linux, in practice with good hardware there is no difference. I run an Ethernet Smoothstepper motion controller with Allen Bradley AC servos and get very high motion control fidelity. From a software perspective it is reliable and easy to configure. There is a good online support community. Mach 4 is lightyears ahead of Mach 3.
> 
> My favorite aspect of Mach 4 is the screen and script customizability. I was able to add code to the control which continuously sends commands out the RS232 serial port to query the servo drives for diagnostics, then reads the results and displays them on-screen with graphics. This is not native functionality in the software but rather fully custom code. The screen can be made to look however you want too.


Thanks for this perspective. All of this is new territory for me so the learning curve is pretty steep so support is a big factor for me. At this point, I need things to be almost "put Tab A into Slot B" on the electronic side of things. I wired my CNC plasma cutter easily enough but this build is definitely more involved.
I'm liking Linux so far and LinuxCNC feels fairly intuitive if that can be said about these sorts of applications.


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## DavidR8

7milesup said:


> Just thinking out loud here...
> I would love to convert my mill to CNC.  Or possibly do what you are doing Dave and build a small-ish platform CNC.  Or do both.  So little time...
> I am curious about the Linux control platform.  In one of the other conversion threads on this forum I had mentioned utilizing Linux and was offered a rebuttal as to why it was not the best choice and to use a different control platform.  I wish I could remember what the reasoning was.
> 
> I have some experience messing around with a large Shop Sabre (Shop Sabre) cutting aluminum.  We use a mist system on it which is essential for cutting in aluminum.  Without it, the cutter will load up nearly instantly and most likely break, especially if using carbide.  Two flute cutter also.
> 
> I have considered the Grunblau CNC.  I really like his design.  *https://www.grunblau.com/* Scroll down to the bottom of his page to see his CNC. Also a build thread here *https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-router-table-machines/175897-cnc.html*
> 
> *EDIT:  *Just looked at PrintNC and that looks awesome! Love the linear rails.


I'd be interested in hearing what the issues were with LinuxCNC. I know that Linux is not everyone's cup of tea as it's pretty geeky to get into. My first experience was converting an old Acer laptop to Linux because Windows 10 was killing it. Linux Ubuntu just flies on it. That's what I'm using as my shop laptop.

That Grunblau machine is really something, excellent design. Thanks for the aluminum tip. I have some moto parts that I want to make at some point, peg mounts and headlight brackets from aluminum.


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## macardoso

David, 

I do control panel design and automation for a job. If you get to feeling overwhelmed, PM me and we can chat and come up with a design for whichever software and motion controller you go with. I've done probably a dozen CNC control build ranging from dirt simple to quite complicated. Some were paid jobs. I've worked with Centroid Acorn, Masso, and Mach 3/4, and once you get past the nuances, they are all somewhat the same.


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## DavidR8

That is a very kind offer @macardoso, I may take you up on it!


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## Badabinski

I've done a lot of Linux system engineering on small networking appliances, so I can probably offer some advice on service management and stability, light shell scripting (I've done an uncomfortable amount of shell scripting...), and general Linux tips and tricks. I have basically zero CNC experience, however.


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## DavidR8

Thanks @Badabinski really appreciate your offer of assistance.


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## macardoso

One final data comment. I have been running Mach 4 on an industrial computer with an absolutely horridly slow Intel Atom processor (about as powerful as a Kindle) and 2 GB of RAM and it has no issues with processing power. This is even below the minimum recommended system values and it still works just fine. I've run it from a laptop (i7 16Gb RAM) and even a desktop with a Pentium processor and 1GB of RAM and they all worked fine.


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## spumco

DavidR8 said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what the issues were with LinuxCNC



I suspect that issues with LinuxCNC revolve around the fact that most people are more familiar with Windows (or Mac), and that LinuxCNC has a fairly steep learning curve.  If you aren't familiar with the Linux environment and how to do seemingly simple things, it can be a struggle.  Having to use a DOS-like terminal for many commands/functions during setups has been a challenge for me.

I'm sure once you get used to it it's fine, but for a novice (me) it's been painful.

Second reason LinuxCNC may not be the best option for a beginner is due to its extremely powerful & flexible nature, there are countless options, features, commands, functions, and other details that may need to be worked out.  Getting your head wrapped around the basic architecture and jargon can be daunting.

And there's no customer help number...  it's all community-based forum support.  Documentation, while helpful as a general guide, is usually outdated.

If you're willing to brave the learning curve, LinuxCNC looks to have pretty amazing capabilities.  9-axis synchronized motion, built-in PLC ladder functions, ability to control just about any type of motor, actuator, whatever.  Stuff like adjusting the feedrate based on real-time spindle load and tool center point control like the big boy CNC machines have.

I think LinuxCNC should be fairly easy for a beginner to get working... but that's for simple machines: routers, plasma cutters.  For something more complicated (like my 4-axis mill with lots of other nice-to-haves like an ATC, spindle orientation, PDB, 5th axis) LinuxCNC is less intuitive.



macardoso said:


> while it is not "real-time" like Linux, in practice with good hardware there is no difference.



My earlier comment about 'real time' vs Windows wasn't intended to be a dig, or to imply that a real-time OS kernel is superior to Windows-PC based CNC motion control.  If you offload the heavy lifting (trajectory planning and precise signal timing) to a dedicated motion controller, then there's no issue.  The advantage of a real-time OS is valid when comparing Mach 3 through a PC's parallel port to LinuxCNC through a parallel port. 

The only fundamental advantage I can see now is that Windows-based systems can be _slightly_ less responsive to user inputs than a real-time system.  By this I mean that pushing a feed-hold button on a Windows system with a separate motion controller (Smoothstepper, UCCNC, any of them) results in some lag or latency (delay).  The separate motion controller's buffer has to empty before it can process the new input signal.  A large buffer (maybe for a slow PC or big look-ahead) can result in noticable delays.  Small buffer, smaller lag.

If you've ever operated a 'real' machine with a dedicated CNC system (Fanuc, Haas, Siemens, etc.) you don't notice any latency when spinning the handwheel or pushing control buttons.  Even on old machines.

This isn't limited to Mach 3/4, UCCNC, or other modern(ish) PC-based controls.  My 2006 Emco lathe appears to have a Fanuc 21TB control, but it's actually a Windows 7 PC running Emco software that's been designed to mimic the Fanuc user interface.  This also has a bit of latency in the controls... switch to a real Fanuc controller and everything is_ instant_.

Not a deal breaker, but a half-second feed-hold delay during a rapid down in Z can cause some puckering.

-R


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## 7milesup

Dave... I looked for a while to find the post where one of our members suggested a different OS than Linux.  Could not find it.  I know nothing about Linux but it seems that the people that use it are happy.  I am considering that route myself.
You may have already seen this, but there is a guy that did a CNC conversion of a PM833 mill, which I know doesn't apply here but he did use Linux and talked about how to set it up.  PM 833T CNC conversion utilizing Linux


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## DavidR8

spumco said:


> I suspect that issues with LinuxCNC revolve around the fact that most people are more familiar with Windows (or Mac), and that LinuxCNC has a fairly steep learning curve. If you aren't familiar with the Linux environment and how to do seemingly simple things, it can be a struggle. Having to use a DOS-like terminal for many commands/functions during setups has been a challenge for me.
> 
> I'm sure once you get used to it it's fine, but for a novice (me) it's been painful.
> 
> Second reason LinuxCNC may not be the best option for a beginner is due to its extremely powerful & flexible nature, there are countless options, features, commands, functions, and other details that may need to be worked out. Getting your head wrapped around the basic architecture and jargon can be daunting.
> 
> And there's no customer help number... it's all community-based forum support. Documentation, while helpful as a general guide, is usually outdated.
> 
> If you're willing to brave the learning curve, LinuxCNC looks to have pretty amazing capabilities. 9-axis synchronized motion, built-in PLC ladder functions, ability to control just about any type of motor, actuator, whatever. Stuff like adjusting the feedrate based on real-time spindle load and tool center point control like the big boy CNC machines have.
> 
> I think LinuxCNC should be fairly easy for a beginner to get working... but that's for simple machines: routers, plasma cutters. For something more complicated (like my 4-axis mill with lots of other nice-to-haves like an ATC, spindle orientation, PDB, 5th axis) LinuxCNC is less intuitive.
> 
> 
> 
> My earlier comment about 'real time' vs Windows wasn't intended to be a dig, or to imply that a real-time OS kernel is superior to Windows-PC based CNC motion control. If you offload the heavy lifting (trajectory planning and precise signal timing) to a dedicated motion controller, then there's no issue. The advantage of a real-time OS is valid when comparing Mach 3 through a PC's parallel port to LinuxCNC through a parallel port.
> 
> The only fundamental advantage I can see now is that Windows-based systems can be _slightly_ less responsive to user inputs than a real-time system. By this I mean that pushing a feed-hold button on a Windows system with a separate motion controller (Smoothstepper, UCCNC, any of them) results in some lag or latency (delay). The separate motion controller's buffer has to empty before it can process the new input signal. A large buffer (maybe for a slow PC or big look-ahead) can result in noticable delays. Small buffer, smaller lag.
> 
> If you've ever operated a 'real' machine with a dedicated CNC system (Fanuc, Haas, Siemens, etc.) you don't notice any latency when spinning the handwheel or pushing control buttons. Even on old machines.
> 
> This isn't limited to Mach 3/4, UCCNC, or other modern(ish) PC-based controls. My 2006 Emco lathe appears to have a Fanuc 21TB control, but it's actually a Windows 7 PC running Emco software that's been designed to mimic the Fanuc user interface. This also has a bit of latency in the controls... switch to a real Fanuc controller and everything is_ instant_.
> 
> Not a deal breaker, but a half-second feed-hold delay during a rapid down in Z can cause some puckering.
> 
> -R



Thanks for your very thoughtful post. 
As a CNC noob my experience thus far has been with my two-axis plasma cutter that runs off an Arduino Uno. Using LinuxCNC for a three-axis router will be a big step up in complexity to be sure.


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## DavidR8

7milesup said:


> Dave... I looked for a while to find the post where one of our members suggested a different OS than Linux. Could not find it. I know nothing about Linux but it seems that the people that use it are happy. I am considering that route myself.
> You may have already seen this, but there is a guy that did a CNC conversion of a PM833 mill, which I know doesn't apply here but he did use Linux and talked about how to set it up. PM 833T CNC conversion utilizing Linux



Thanks, I appreciate that you went looking for the thread. I’m familiar with Dr D Flo. I learned about blowback start plasma cutters from him.


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## Winegrower

Couple of points:   You are going to be amazed how your old computers that used to work but were buried by new Windows releases (Like Windows 10, ugh) run like lightning again on Linux.    Second, I purchased some 2000mm rails and recirculating ball guides for a big slab router/leveler and accidentally reordered some 16mm diameter instead of 20mm.   If you use these round guides, the difference in stiffness is night and day.  Use 20mm.


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## DavidR8

Winegrower said:


> Couple of points: You are going to be amazed how your old computers that used to work but were buried by new Windows releases (Like Windows 10, ugh) run like lightning again on Linux. Second, I purchased some 2000mm rails and recirculating ball guides for a big slab router/leveler and accidentally reordered some 16mm diameter instead of 20mm. If you use these round guides, the difference in stiffness is night and day. Use 20mm.



Indeed. I have a 2010 Acer laptop that struggled with Windows 10 but is much better running Ubuntu.

The machine I’m building uses linear rails (I can’t recall the dimensions of the rail) bolted to 2x3 steel tubing. My build will only have a 2’x3’ footprint so it should be really stout.


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## DavidR8

Big step today. I submitted the order for all the parts.
Linear rails
725mm HGR20 QTY (2)
425mm HGR20 QTY (2)
250mm HGR20 QTY (2)

Ball screws
825mm 1610 Ball Screw QTY (1)
525mm 1610 Ball Screw QTY (2)
300mm 1204 Ball Screw QTY (1)
HGW20CC QTY (6)

Motors, driver and board
4 x Nema 23 Stepper Motors
4 x DM542 Stepper Drivers
Parallel Port Breakout Board + DB25 Cable
5 x LJ8A3-2-Z-AX M8
360w Switching Power Supply

Shaft Couplers:
XB25*30 8*10 QTY (1)
XB25*30 8*10 QTY (2)
XB25*30 8*10 QTY (2)

Cable Chain 25*57 QTY (2)

Spindle + VFD Package 
2.2kw Water Cooled Spindle + VFD
10m Water Pipe + Flange Type 80mm Spindle Mount
ER20 Collet Set
220V


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## rabler

DavidR8 said:


> Big step today. I submitted the order for all the parts.
> Linear rails



I'm watching this closely.  Building a CNC router has been on my to-do list.  I've been working with Unix, Linux, and RT operating systems professionally for years so LinuxCNC will be my goto but I've never tried it.  I'm more worried about finding a 3D cad package and learning it.  I'm leaning toward SolidWorks.  Anything network/cloud based is near useless on HughesNet satellite internet.  (Impatiently awaiting Starlink).


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## DavidR8

I looked at a bunch of designs and machines before settling on this one. One of it appeals is that it scales well. I don’t have a lot of space, nor do I need a large work area. Small CNC routers tend to be lightweight so aren’t suited heavier work. 
I use Fusion360 but I don’t have internet access in my shop so cranking out a quick design means going to the house. 
Solidworks is appealing as I’d like to have something that runs locally.


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## 7milesup

You are really moving along on this build David.  Looking forward to seeing the progress.

Question about the water cooled spindle... Is there a concern with the water "going bad", or do you introduce a chemical into the water to prevent that?


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## macardoso

7milesup said:


> You are really moving along on this build David.  Looking forward to seeing the progress.
> 
> Question about the water cooled spindle... Is there a concern with the water "going bad", or do you introduce a chemical into the water to prevent that?


I'm helping a guy on a different forum with a control panel design. He bought a $2000 ATC water cooled spindle from China and it recommended adding rust preventative to the cooling water to avoid damage to the spindle water channels over time.


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## DavidR8

macardoso said:


> I'm helping a guy on a different forum with a control panel design. He bought a $2000 ATC water cooled spindle from China and it recommended adding rust preventative to the cooling water to avoid damage to the spindle water channels over time.


Something like a corrosion inhibitor?
I'll need to do some research on this...


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## JimDawson

DavidR8 said:


> Something like a corrosion inhibitor?
> I'll need to do some research on this...



Automotive antifreeze


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## macardoso

DavidR8 said:


> Something like a corrosion inhibitor?
> I'll need to do some research on this...


Here is what their incredibly detailed  manual says for his spindle.


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## DavidR8

macardoso said:


> Here is what their incredibly detailed  manual says for his spindle.
> 
> View attachment 365848



That was my first inclination. 
Thanks Jim.


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## DavidR8

macardoso said:


> Here is what their incredibly detailed  manual says for his spindle.
> 
> View attachment 365848



Reading between the lines is necessary


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## macardoso

Have to say though, a 27 page operation manual and a 45 page specification manual is pretty good for China hardware. The english is quite good as well.

If you are getting an ebay water cooled spindle, make sure to check the taper runout and overall spindle balance. Quality can vary.


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## DavidR8

That is impressive actually. 
The spindle is part of the kit that was put together by the originator of the project.


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## 7milesup

macardoso said:


> I'm helping a guy on a different forum with a control panel design. He bought a $2000 ATC water cooled spindle from China and it recommended adding rust preventative to the cooling water to avoid damage to the spindle water channels over time.


Interesting.  I was thinking more like the water going rancid.  Maybe that is not a thing though.
The 10hp spindle (it is a beast) on the Shop Sabre that I play with occasionally is air cooled.  If I decide to do this, that will be the route it take; the air cooling, not the 10hp!


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## macardoso

7milesup said:


> Interesting.  I was thinking more like the water going rancid.  Maybe that is not a thing though.
> The 10hp spindle (it is a beast) on the Shop Sabre that I play with occasionally is air cooled.  If I decide to do this, that will be the route it take; the air cooling, not the 10hp!


I have an old colombo spindle (8HP, Air cooled, ceramic bearings). It is LOUD! Came from a signage shop. You could hear it a quarter mile away if they had the garage door open. The water cooled spindles are silent by comparison.


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## 7milesup

macardoso said:


> I have an old colombo spindle (8HP, Air cooled, ceramic bearings). It is LOUD! Came from a signage shop. You could hear it a quarter mile away if they had the garage door open. The water cooled spindles are silent by comparison.


Good to know.  Thank you.


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## 7milesup

DavidR8 said:


> My build will only have a 2’x3’ footprint





DavidR8 said:


> 725mm HGR20 QTY (2)
> 425mm HGR20 QTY (2)


I realize that your build is a 2x3 "footprint" but those rails are only 28.5" and 16" respectively.


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## DavidR8

This video was just released.
Shows the spindle that I have coming and give you a sense of the sound level (as well as can be done on video...)


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## DavidR8

7milesup said:


> I realize that your build is a 2x3 "footprint" but those rails are only 28.5" and 16" respectively.


Yes, that is because the rails aren't the full length of the steel rails. Have a look at this example build.


			https://www.notion.so/image/https%3A%2F%2Fs3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com%2Fsecure.notion-static.com%2Fdbf6552c-408d-418b-815e-124d3691c8dd%2FIMG_3152.png?table=block&id=9e103878-da0e-486e-9a8e-cbc1661c1716&width=7080&userId=&cache=v2


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## 7milesup

DavidR8 said:


> Yes, that is because the rails aren't the full length of the steel rails. Have a look at this example build.
> 
> 
> https://www.notion.so/image/https%3A%2F%2Fs3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com%2Fsecure.notion-static.com%2Fdbf6552c-408d-418b-815e-124d3691c8dd%2FIMG_3152.png?table=block&id=9e103878-da0e-486e-9a8e-cbc1661c1716&width=7080&userId=&cache=v2


Right, but just wanted to make sure you didn't make an "oops" along the way there.


----------



## DavidR8

7milesup said:


> Right, but just wanted to make sure you didn't make an "oops" along the way there.


For sure, appreciate that.
I hardly had to think about it as there's a handy frame size calculator where all I had to do was enter my desired dimensions. The calculator then produces the Bill of Materials which is sent off to an AliExpress store.
(only the metric one is working at the moment...)








						Metric Frame Size Calculator - ThreeDesign - Home of the PrintNC
					






					threedesign.store


----------



## 7milesup

DavidR8 said:


> For sure, appreciate that.
> I hardly had to think about it as there's a handy frame size calculator where all I had to do was enter my desired dimensions. The calculator then produces the Bill of Materials which is sent off to an AliExpress store.
> (only the metric one is working at the moment...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Metric Frame Size Calculator - ThreeDesign - Home of the PrintNC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> threedesign.store


Holy crap.  That is awesome.  Thank you for sharing that.


----------



## DavidR8

It's an amazingly well supported project.
For example, the downloadable Fusion360 file contains parameters to adjust the corner radius of the steel frames so that the included .stl files (for 3D printed drilling and alignment guides for the various bits and bobs) will fit whatever steel is purchased.


----------



## extropic

@DavidR8

You again?   

I just caught up with this thread and will be following along like a curious puppy.


----------



## DavidR8

extropic said:


> @DavidR8
> 
> You again?
> 
> I just caught up with this thread and will be following along like a curious puppy.


Promise to help if/when I fall on my face?


----------



## extropic

DavidR8 said:


> Promise to help if/when I fall on my face?



Fall on your face?

Low risk of that.


----------



## DavidR8

extropic said:


> Fall on your face?
> 
> Low risk of that.



I’m liable to muck up the electronics on this one as it’s seriously complicated for my knowledge level. 
The build I think will be relatively easy.


----------



## extropic

DavidR8 said:


> I’m liable to muck up the electronics on this one as it’s seriously complicated for my knowledge level.
> The build I think will be relatively easy.


 
My electronics knowledge is infinitesimal, so your signature slogan applies.

What is so attractive (to me) about your plasma cutter and router projects is they are of a scale that I might try someday.
The electronics/software/integration would be the greatest challenge for me also.

From earlier replies, I'm confident there are other members able and ready to help, if needed.


----------



## DavidR8

There’s also a well documented wiki and an immense amount of knowledge available from the folks on the discord channel.


----------



## DavidR8

Another big step today.
Picked up the 2"x3"x.125 wall tubing and a roll of PETG 1.75mm filament for the 3D printed motor mounts.
Next step is to modify the parameters in the Fusion 360 file so that the radius of the 3D printed parts will match the steel.

Edit: modified the parameters, downloaded all the stls and have started printing the assembly tools


----------



## DavidR8

Deburred and painted the steel today.


----------



## slodat

I have a 5' x 8' CNC router, Tree J425 CNC knee mill and a Hardinge Accuslide CNC lathe all with Centroid Acorn control. I have been through the nightmare that is Mach 3/4. I can't recommend Centroid Acorn highly enough. It is an order of magnitude better than anything else in the price range. I'm happy to help if you need it.


----------



## DavidR8

slodat said:


> I have a 5' x 8' CNC router, Tree J425 CNC knee mill and a Hardinge Accuslide CNC lathe all with Centroid Acorn control. I have been through the nightmare that is Mach 3/4. I can't recommend Centroid Acorn highly enough. It is an order of magnitude better than anything else in the price range. I'm happy to help if you need it.



Thanks, I appreciate it. 
I’m going to use LinuxCNC as a start and see if I can figure it out. 
I’ll fall back CNCjs as a second choice though that requires a different control board.


----------



## DavidR8

Built the table for the router yesterday. 
Nothing special, just construction lumber from my stockpile. 
I’ve since added a shelf to hold the computer and all of the electronics.


----------



## extropic

DavidR8 said:


> I've been jonesing for a CNC router for a while now.
> Two main criteria
> *1) it had to fit on a 2' x3' table...my welding table.    *snip>



It seems that the criteria have evolved. Yes?

Or, is the wooden table intended for the construction phase only?


----------



## DavidR8

extropic said:


> It seems that the criteria have evolved. Yes?
> 
> Or, is the wooden table intended for the construction phase only?


Yes, an evolution based on reality.
My original plan was to have it on my welding table. But after buying the steel I realized there was no way I could easily move it from the table so I am re-jigging things a bit in the shop. Moving my surface grinder over six inches and moving my drill press slightly will give me space to put the router table when not in use.


----------



## DavidR8

Drilled and tapped the holes  for the X and Y beams today.
Three X beams = 48 holes not tapped.
Two Y beams = 24 holes tapped for M6.
The grey things are 3D printed patterns for marking hole placement.


----------



## extropic

Nice work comming up with the marking templates.


----------



## DavidR8

extropic said:


> Nice work coming up with the marking templates.


I make no claim to ingenuity, but I can follow directions reasonably well.
The templates are part of the Fusion360 build file. 




__





						Printing
					






					wiki.printnc.info


----------



## DavidR8

Well now I can start in earnest!
Rails, ball screws, steppers and a bunch of stuff arrived today.


----------



## DavidR8

So I'm going to go down parallel paths with the build:
Mechanical: all of the rails, ball screws and everything related to linear motion.
Electronics: motors, drivers, cards, limit switches etc. The PC I'm using is in the house so I'll mock up the motors and everything on a board to make sure it all works before moving it to the machine.


----------



## DavidR8

So back at the beginning of the thread I said I was going to use LinuxCNC to run this machine.
I’ve been watching and reading discussions where folks really struggle with configuration and setup.
I’d been leaning toward using grbl or grblHAL because of its simplicity and active development.

Yesterday a member of the PrintNC Discord group who is an electronics engineer announced that he had designed a new breakout board that uses a Teensy 4.1 controller board. And that he was going to have 10 boards made for beta testing.
I get board #2!
View attachment 20210608_-_PrintNC_Hal_2000_-_GRBL_HAL_Controller_Beta_-_Board_Rev_A1_Final.pdf


----------



## extropic

DavidR8 said:


> So back at the beginning of the thread I said I was going to use LinuxCNC to run this machine.
> I’ve been watching and reading discussions where folks really struggle with configuration and setup.
> I’d been leaning toward using grbl or grblHAL because of its simplicity and active development.
> 
> Yesterday a member of the PrintNC Discord group who is an electronics engineer announced that he had designed a new breakout board that uses a Teensy 4.1 controller board. And that he was going to have 10 boards made for beta testing.
> I get board #2!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 368653



That sounds like it changes the nature of the project for this observer.
My intention was to read about your project with the hope that I might copy it someday.
In order for me to copy it, the thing has to be made of commercially available, off the shelf, electronic and software components.
It seems you're going pretty far from "commercially available".
So be it. I'll follow the thread anyway.


----------



## DavidR8

extropic said:


> That sounds like it changes the nature of the project for this observer.
> My intention was to read about your project with the hope that I might copy it someday.
> In order for me to copy it, the thing has to be made of commercially available, off the shelf, electronic and software components.
> It seems you're going pretty far from "commercially available".
> So be it. I'll follow the thread anyway.


I think our situations are the same. This is entirely new territory for me so I need to have instructions that say, buy this, put it together this way. I don't think that I'm deviating at all from the original nature of this project, only selecting a different software and hardware option.
There is no part of this project where I'm making it up because I simply do not have the necessary experience to make intelligent choices. I am following a very well curated plan.

It may not have been clear in the pdf attached in my post (though I thought it was) but the plan is to open source the board and make it available to anyone who wants one.
That said, there are many other options for motion control; Mach 4 and it's hardware, Centroid Acorn has a full-featured solution and of course LinucCNC is an option with either a breakout board or a Mesa card.
Even a simple Arduino Uno will do the trick, it just won't have some features like five axis control of multiple end stop sensor support.

There's a breakout board for a Teensy 4.1 (which is the processor I will use) it just requires some detailed soldering, a skill I'm not sure I have. That said, I was on the verge of going the Teensy and breakout board route.


----------



## DavidR8

A minor update: I managed to get the frame bolted together. Went very smoothly due  in large part to the excellent drill guides. There are four 6mm x 10mm SCHS at each connection point for a total of 24 SHCS holding the frame together.
Next step is to locate  and mount the Y-axis linear rails and lead screw bearing block mounts.
This is a screenshot of what I'm talking about. Arrows pointing to the lead screw bearing blocks mounts and linear rails.


----------



## DavidR8

Big progress tonight.
Got the bearing blocks mounted and the rails and roller slides on both Y-axis.



The grey pieces sitting over the rails are used to centre the rail on the steel.





Roller block in place



Next I have to cut the steel for the risers that mount to the rollers and carry the gantry.
These are the risers.


----------



## jwmelvin

Looking good. Do you do anything to maintain the rail’s z-straightness, or just bolt it to the steel member? Seems like that interface would be an opportunity for distortion.


----------



## DavidR8

jwmelvin said:


> Looking good. Do you do anything to maintain the rail’s z-straightness, or just bolt it to the steel member? Seems like that interface would be an opportunity for distortion.



A couple of people used epoxy to level the surface. I checked my steel for flatness along the Y axis length and it was very good, a .001 feeler gauge just slipped under the midpoint of the rail.


----------



## WobblyHand

@DavidR8 If you need any help with soldering/assembly of electronic stuff associated with the Teensy, let me know.  Have what's needed for that sort of thing, including stereo microscope.  Can do (non-BGA) SMD devices and have a hot air gun for soldering along with an old school iron for leaded devices.  It definitely looks like you have the mechanical parts and assembly under control!  You are doing a great job.


----------



## DavidR8

WobblyHand said:


> @DavidR8 If you need any help with soldering/assembly of electronic stuff associated with the Teensy, let me know.  Have what's needed for that sort of thing, including stereo microscope.  Can do (non-BGA) SMD devices and have a hot air gun for soldering along with an old school iron for leaded devices.  It definitely looks like you have the mechanical parts and assembly under control!  You are doing a great job.


Thank you sir! I appreciate the vote of confidence. 
I think I'll be okay on the Teensy. The board designer is going to assemble 10 of the boards for the beta testers. So not only do I get the benefit of a custom designed board with all of the bells and whistles like spindle on/off and speed control, enclosure door alarm, probe input and relays for flood and/or mist coolant, it will be completely assembled and tested prior to shipping.


----------



## Ulma Doctor

Fantastic progress David !!!


----------



## DavidR8

Ulma Doctor said:


> Fantastic progress David !!!



Thanks Doc! 
It’s definitely coming together. I should have the Y-axis ball screws in and maybe the gantry on tomorrow.


----------



## WobblyHand

DavidR8 said:


> So back at the beginning of the thread I said I was going to use LinuxCNC to run this machine.
> I’ve been watching and reading discussions where folks really struggle with configuration and setup.
> I’d been leaning toward using grbl or grblHAL because of its simplicity and active development.
> 
> Yesterday a member of the PrintNC Discord group who is an electronics engineer announced that he had designed a new breakout board that uses a Teensy 4.1 controller board. And that he was going to have 10 boards made for beta testing.
> I get board #2!
> View attachment 368653


Read the file you attached, and it looks really interesting.  Is PrintNC a private group?  Doesn't seem to show up on a standard Discord search.   Or do I have to somehow tell discord to check all countries?  Sorry for the old school questions, haven't used Discord before.


----------



## DavidR8

WobblyHand said:


> Read the file you attached, and it looks really interesting. Is PrintNC a private group? Doesn't seem to show up on a standard Discord search. Or do I have to somehow tell discord to check all countries? Sorry for the old school questions, haven't used Discord before.



I couldn’t figure out how to link to the Discord group but if you go here there should be a pop up on the home page. 






						Home - ThreeDesign - Home of the PrintNC
					

Low cost, High-Performance Steel Frame, Ball Screw & Linear Rail CNC Have questions and want fast community-driven answers? Click here to join the Discord chat! Video Courtesy of ProjectssByBrian 100% Free and Open Source, the PrintNC is the next generation of high performance, affordable CNC...




					threedesign.store


----------



## WobblyHand

DavidR8 said:


> I couldn’t figure out how to link to the Discord group but if you go here there should be a pop up on the home page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home - ThreeDesign - Home of the PrintNC
> 
> 
> Low cost, High-Performance Steel Frame, Ball Screw & Linear Rail CNC Have questions and want fast community-driven answers? Click here to join the Discord chat! Video Courtesy of ProjectssByBrian 100% Free and Open Source, the PrintNC is the next generation of high performance, affordable CNC...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> threedesign.store


Thanks!  Tried PrintNC, Print NC, upper and lower case and CNC.  I'm sure it was under cnc, but didn't recognize it!  Actually nothing under cnc. Will try the home page.


----------



## DavidR8

I’m there under the same handle as here, DavidR8


----------



## WobblyHand

DavidR8 said:


> I’m there under the same handle as here, DavidR8


Wow, not your handle, but the running stream of consciousness on there...  Somehow, I'll navigate it.  Quite the different character there.


----------



## DavidR8

WobblyHand said:


> Wow, not your handle, but the running stream of consciousness on there... Somehow, I'll navigate it. Quite the different character there.



It can be hard to follow. 
One interesting thing is that because there are people from all over the world in the discord so there usually always someone online.


----------



## Larry$

I'm curious, why use a water cooled spindle? I've had both on industrial machines. 
A 10 & a 12HP spindle, air cooled. No issues, run 8 to 10 hours a day for years. 
A 15 HP water cooled, ran fine but the flow sensor and the cooling radiator both had problems. Not worth the added maintenance.


----------



## DavidR8

Larry$ said:


> I'm curious, why use a water cooled spindle? I've had both on industrial machines.
> A 10 & a 12HP spindle, air cooled. No issues, run 8 to 10 hours a day for years.
> A 15 HP water cooled, ran fine but the flow sensor and the cooling radiator both had problems. Not worth the added maintenance.



I went water cooled because it’s somewhat quieter and there have been no reported issues with them.


----------



## DavidR8

More progress today. 
Got the ball screws in and the X gantry on. 
Still need to add the linear rails to the gantry. 






















Next step is a bit of a complicated one as I have to fabricate the Z axis assembly. 
Going to read the instructions a few times before tackling it.


----------



## DavidR8

Tonight’s progress was mounting the bearing blocks and upper and lower linear rails on the X-axis gantry. 
Lots of careful measuring and drilling. And tapping. Thank goodness for spiral taps!


----------



## DavidR8

Finally cooled off enough to get into the shop. 
Made the X-axis rollers and the temporary Z-axis plate.


----------



## DavidR8

Got an aluminum Z plate made.


----------



## DavidR8

Not much progress here as I had the shop apart to move my surface grinder out.
Now I'm waiting on metric hardware for the Z axis and arrival of the new board for the grblHAL system.
I have the X and Y axis completed and everything works using a spare Arduino Mega board. When the new board arrives I'll start the permanent wiring job.


----------



## Larry$

Very professional looking!


----------



## DavidR8

Thanks @Larry$ It's coming along...just a bit slowly!


----------



## DavidR8

Wow, it's been weeks since I posted.
Not a lot of progress as I had to almost dismantle my shop to move out the surface grinder.... (yes I sold the Parker Majestic grinder...)
But today the post delivered my new, second-one-off-the-production-line, Teensy 3.1 based control board.


----------



## DavidR8

Z axis is built.


----------



## wrat

I would tell you that's a nice shaft you got there... but i don't want my name on any special list.....


----------



## BGHansen

wrat said:


> I would tell you that's a nice shaft you got there... but i don't want my name on any special list.....


They say this cat Shaft is a bad mother
(Shut your mouth)
But I'm talkin' 'bout Shaft
(Then we can dig it)


----------



## DavidR8

Hey all, thought I best drop in here so you don't think that I've dropped off the planet.
CNC project is slowly progressing but I've been completely occupied with my two full time jobs and numerous Fall house projects.
I'm down a staff member at work so my three person team is two  
I'm also the treasurer for an independent school and we've been prepping for and working through our inspection by govt officials in advance of our certification. 
So not a lot of productive shop time I'm afraid.


----------



## 7milesup

We were starting to form a search party so your posting here is fortuitous.


----------



## DavidR8

A bit of progress today.
I managed to find a local fellow who was selling empty computer cases. Picked up the biggest one he had for $20. Even threw in three fans.
This will hold all of the electronics for the machine.


----------



## DavidR8

Dropped all the major components into the computer case today.
From top left:
VFD
12v power supply for control board 
36v power supply for stepper drivers
(fan which will go above the power supplies)
Four stepper drivers
Control board 
I will mount another fan on the bottom of the enclosure to blow across the stepper drivers.
Waiting on wire raceway before I can start wiring in earnest.


----------



## DavidR8

Much progress has been made. 
I picked up a used PC tower case and have managed to stuff in all the electronics. 
Put on the cable chains and ran all the cabling save for the limit switches. Still figuring out mounting setup for those.
Had a bit of a technical glitch getting connected to my custom made grblHAL motion control board but with the help of the PrintNC community I managed to get that sorted. 
T-tracks arrived yesterday so those will get screwed the the frame between MDF strips. 
I'll add some pics later


----------



## DavidR8

Spent the afternoon in the shop working on the router. Good progress but I didn't hit my stretch goal of a test cut.
Did manage to get all the cabling pulled, limit switches and triggers installed and tested and the spindle end of the cable is soldered on.
Next step is connect the VFD, cut the spoilboard to fit and make a test cut.
Inductive limit switch and trigger



X-axis cable chain



Spindle. Four 16ga wires plus the shielding. I really hate soldering GX connectors.


----------



## DavidR8

Well, I've had to make a direction change electronics-wise. Previously I was going to use a custom made grblHAL board and IOSender as control software. I've had  many issues flashing the board, proximity sensors that work in the morning and then not work that afternoon without any changes to hardware or software.
So I decided to move to the UCCNC control software from CNCDrive and their AXBB-E motion control board.
It's proprietary which I have some nervousness about but there is a huge user base and the developers are very responsive.





						CNCdrive - motion controls
					

CNC drives, control systems



					cncdrive.com
				








						CNCdrive - motion controls
					

CNC drives, control systems



					cncdrive.com
				



​


----------



## macardoso

Just to throw another contender into the ring, Mach 4 software with a motion controller (Warp9 Ethernet Smoothstepper) is a really nice option with lots of support and customization potential. $400 will get you the software and motion control board.


----------



## DavidR8

macardoso said:


> Just to throw another contender into the ring, Mach 4 software with a motion controller (Warp9 Ethernet Smoothstepper) is a really nice option with lots of support and customization potential. $400 will get you the software and motion control board.


I looked at Mach 4 and Acorn in my search. When conversion is taken into account Mach 4 runs over $500 CDN plus shipping. Acorn is even more.
The UCCNC and AXBB-E combo was $339 CDN delivered


----------



## jwmelvin

I won’t hold it against you but you were touting the grblHAL board recently without mentioning your difficulties. Maybe they are recent difficulties.


----------



## DavidR8

jwmelvin said:


> I won’t hold it against you but you were touting the grblHAL board recently without mentioning your difficulties. Maybe they are recent difficulties.


I was indeed. But this week I ran into major headaches.
Issues I faced:
1) Lack of documentation meant that I couldn't tell if the problems I was having were my doing or something else.
2) Lack of reliability. This is what did it for me. I had incorrectly installed the limit switches (see issue 1). When I got them sorted out they worked for a day then suddenly decided to stop working. I turned off the lights in the shop and came back later that day to discover they no longer worked. Absolutely zero changes to anything. The switches were still triggering correctly but the steppers no longer stopped moving when the limits were reached.
3) Software issues: I'm not a technologist so all of the electronics in this project has been a near vertical learning curve. That said, I managed to get the board flashed with the grblHAL software and configuration file and it initially worked. After my limit switch issues I was told that there had been a major rewrite of the configuration file and that I should reflash my board as that would likely solve the problems. I followed the just written instructions to the letter and I ended up with a board that I can no longer connect to either by USB or Ethernet. No idea why. And no one can figure out why. So my board is basically unusable.

Other folks have their grblHAL boards up and running just fine so I'm not disparaging grblHAL. Just that my experience highlighted that I need a more mature solution.


----------



## jwmelvin

DavidR8 said:


> Issues I faced:


Thanks for the further explanation. The limit-switch issue would be frustrating, at best. So would being unable to reflash the board. I'll hope for the best when I try to commission mine.


----------



## DavidR8

jwmelvin said:


> Thanks for the further explanation. The limit-switch issue would be frustrating, at best. So would being unable to reflash the board. I'll hope for the best when I try to commission mine.


I'm sure you'll be fine. I'm just so far out of my depth on the electronic side that I might as well be a fish in the Sahara.


----------



## extropic

DavidR8 said:


> So back at the beginning of the thread I said I was going to use LinuxCNC to run this machine.
> I’ve been watching and reading discussions where folks really struggle with configuration and setup.
> I’d been leaning toward using grbl or grblHAL because of its simplicity and active development.
> 
> Yesterday a member of the PrintNC Discord group who is an electronics engineer announced that he had designed a new breakout board that uses a Teensy 4.1 controller board. And that he was going to have 10 boards made for beta testing.
> I get board #2!
> View attachment 368653





extropic said:


> That sounds like it changes the nature of the project for this observer.
> My intention was to read about your project with the hope that I might copy it someday.
> In order for me to copy it, the thing has to be made of commercially available, off the shelf, electronic and software components.
> It seems you're going pretty far from "commercially available".
> So be it. I'll follow the thread anyway.





DavidR8 said:


> Well, I've had to make a direction change electronics-wise. Previously I was going to use a custom made grblHAL board and IOSender as control software. I've had  many issues flashing the board, proximity sensors that work in the morning and then not work that afternoon without any changes to hardware or software.
> So I decided to move to the UCCNC control software from CNCDrive and their AXBB-E motion control board.
> It's proprietary which I have some nervousness about but there is a huge user base and the developers are very responsive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CNCdrive - motion controls
> 
> 
> CNC drives, control systems
> 
> 
> 
> cncdrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CNCdrive - motion controls
> 
> 
> CNC drives, control systems
> 
> 
> 
> cncdrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


You've returned closer to the track that I was hoping to follow.


----------



## DavidR8

extropic said:


> You've returned closer to the track that I was hoping to follow.


I think my hopes far exceeded my abilities. 
LinuxCNC was a vertical learning curve.
grblHAL was about a 75 degree slope


----------



## extropic

DavidR8 said:


> I think my hopes far exceeded my abilities.
> LinuxCNC was a vertical learning curve.
> grblHAL was about a 75 degree slope


My original concern wasn't the slope, but the lack of support, continuity, reliability and longevity typical of buying board #2 of 10 (BETA).


----------



## DavidR8

extropic said:


> My original concern wasn't the slope, but the lack of support, continuity, reliability and longevity typical of buying board #2 of 10 (BETA).


It's funny you mention Beta as the fellow that was helping me this week said that my issues were part and parcel of being part of a beta group. That was the first I'd really thought about the fact that this was pretty bleeding edge stuff and likely not the right path for me.


----------



## DavidR8

My new controller arrived today!


----------



## DavidR8

Time to start filling up the enclosure.
Here is a rudimentary (emphasis on rudimentary!) sketch of how it's going to come together.





From the top left VFD, 5v/24v power supply for the controller and limit switches, 36v power supply for the stepper drivers,
Middle is a row of Dinkle terminal blocks for power distribution and the AXBB-E controller.
Bottom left are 120v breaker, contactor, 12v power supply for the three fans, and the four stepper drivers.
In the top right on the outside are the e-stop, and on/off switches. There may also be a potentiometer for VFD speed control. We shall see how controlling the YLang VFD via PWM turns out.


----------



## macardoso

DavidR8 said:


> Time to start filling up the enclosure.
> Here is a rudimentary (emphasis on rudimentary!) sketch of how it's going to come together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the top left VFD, 5v/24v power supply for the controller and limit switches, 36v power supply for the stepper drivers,
> Middle is a row of Dinkle terminal blocks for power distribution and the AXBB-E controller.
> Bottom left are 120v breaker, contactor, 12v power supply for the three fans, and the four stepper drivers.
> In the top right on the outside are the e-stop, and on/off switches. There may also be a potentiometer for VFD speed control. We shall see how controlling the YLang VFD via PWM turns out.


Keep the VFD and its output cables in the lower corner. Helps with cooling and you want those noisy cables as far from everything as you can get.


----------



## macardoso

Here's a panel I built. VFDs and servo drives generate significant electrical noise that can cause issues with your low voltage control circuits. They need to be separated as much as is reasonably possible, and good grounding, bonding, and shielding are a must. Read your drive user manual and application documents to see good grounding and bonding practices.

Sensitive low voltage control boards are at the top, higher voltage AC drives (big white boxes) are at the bottom. Motor output cables are routed in wire ducts away from any signal cables and they cross at right angles where necessary. Drives are electrically grounded, as well as bonded to the unpainted subpanel. 

Still had a bit of EMI issues which were resolved with EMI ferrite toroids, shielded cables inside the cabinet, and scraping paint off the back of one of the drives to improve bonding to the subpanel.


----------



## DavidR8

macardoso said:


> Keep the VFD and its output cables in the lower corner. Helps with cooling and you want those noisy cables as far from everything as you can get.



Thanks John, 
My intention was to have the spindle cable leave the enclosure right below the VFD so that there’s minimal spindle cable inside the enclosure. I have also put a fan directly above the VFD for cooling.
Does that sound like a reasonable approach?


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## DavidR8

Massive progress today. At 10:30 this morning I had the electronics laid out as below.



At 3 PM I had all the DC and the AC wiring done except for the breaker, contactor, on/off and emergency stop switches wired in.


Shortly after 3pm I had movement on all three axes!

Very happy with how the wiring turned out. Super impressed with the UCCNC software.

Just have to drill the bottom left panel for cable glands for power, stepper cables and limit switches. Top right panel will get emergency stop and on/off switches.


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## DavidR8

Another big step tonight.
I was struggling with getting the limit switches set up. Wiring was right but they weren't working as expected.
A bit of research revealed some user error in the configuration. A couple of changes in the software config and now all axis have working limit switches and the homing cycle works!
I'm about a hair's breadth away from cutting


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## DavidR8

So a thing happened.
Nothing amazing. But I had to see if everything worked.
No magic smoke from the spindle or VFD
Coolant pump worked.
No broken endmill from crashing into anything.
But I had my hand on the software e-stop the whole time.
Despite how much I've learned I now know how little I know and how much more I have to learn.
Still to do:
- Wire in contactor, physical e-stop, on/off buttons.
- Drill a boatload of holes in the enclosure for cable glands
- Install enclosure cooling fans (arriving Thursday)
- Route limit switch wiring in enclosure
- Route stepper cables in enclosure
- Finish spoil board attachment


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## matthewsx

That first time you watch it do what you told it.

Magic


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## DavidR8

matthewsx said:


> That first time you watch it do what you told it.
> 
> Magic


It's total magic. And a small amount of terror!


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## DavidR8

Bunch of progress on finishing up the electronics enclosure. 
Stepper driver cables in and secured. 





All cable glands except for the limit switches are in. 
Top is spindle cable from the VFD, then stepper drivers, Ethernet cable and power. 





Estop and on/off switches are in and correctly actuating the contactor. 
Need to hit the panel with Scotchbrite again to remove the scuff. 






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## DavidR8

Had a big breakthrough with the UCCNC software tonight. I was struggling to get soft limits working. If I homed and then enabled soft limits I would get a message that a soft limit had been reached. Which didn't make any sense to me as the machine was at zero on all axes.

Turns out that homing in UCCNC doesn't automatically zero the machine coordinates. There’s a checkbox on each axis to zero that axis' machine coordinates when homed. Checked them for all axes and entered the travel distances and now my soft limits work. Pretty darn happy about that!


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## DavidR8

Another big progress step.
I was struggling to get my AXBB-E board and UCCNC software to control my VFD which powers the spindle.
A bunch of research gave me some direction.
In the end I used the following connections:

VFD  --> AXBB-E
VI             --->   AO1
GND        --->   5V0 (from 5V power out not 5V0 Port 1)
XGND      --->    24V0 (I took this from my 24V common)
FWD        --->    Pin 7, Port 1

In the UCCNC software:
Spindle config screen: set "PWM Pin" to Pin 7, Port 1
I/O Setup screen: set "Spindle PWM -> analog ch" to 1

On the VFD:
Parameter 00.01 set to 1
Parameter 07.08 set to 3


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## extropic

That's the kind of specific, detailed information that represents, IMHO, the highest function of the forum.


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## DavidR8

extropic said:


> That's the kind of specific, detailed information that represents, IMHO, the highest function of the forum.


Thank you! 
It took a bunch of Google-Fu to get close to the right settings so thought I'd document for the next person.


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## extropic

DavidR8 said:


> Thank you!
> It took a bunch of Google-Fu to get close to the right settings so thought I'd document for the next person.


Exactly. No telling how many gray hairs you've prevented for the next pilgrims.
I Know because I'm a mostly gray haired novice electronics pilgrim.


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## DavidR8

In the spirit of keeping up the detailed info thought I'd pass along my some new-found knowledge.

Good documentation was always a thing for me and this project has proven just how important it is. The manual for the AXBB-E board is good but the UCCNC manual could use a good dose of explaining what settings do.

I was having a heck of a hard time setting up soft limits on my machine and I would never have figured out the soft limit thing had someone not explained two things:

1) A different screen set was available that showed both work and machine coordinates at the same time. This let me see that homing zeroed the work coordinates but not the machine coordinates.
This is the screen set that I had to find.
This is a shot after homing. Notice the Work Co. are zero but the Machine Co. for Y is -429.7450.
So when I enabled the Y axis soft limit of -264, the controller immediately said "Whoa there big fella, you're already out of bounds, you ain't going anywhere!" (or something that )



2) The purpose of the "Auto Set" checkbox. As soon as I checked this box and homed the machine all the coordinates set to zero which allowed my Y soft limit of -264 work. (This is not a screen shot of my software but an example)


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## DavidR8

Designed and cut my first actual project on the router. Very happy with its performance. 

















						PrintNC first project
					






					youtube.com
				





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## Larry$

Looks like you need to get some compression bits so you don't get all that edge fuzz. PM me and I'll send you some of our bits that have been take out of service because they have started to show signs of melamine edge wear. Likely run fine for most home projects and if nothing else will give you a chance to evaluate their performance. You can buy Onsurd's coated bits, 3/8" compression spirals abut $85 after bulk discounts, excellent bits. Run @ 16,000rpm & 600"/min. feed.


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## DavidR8

Larry$ said:


> Looks like you need to get some compression bits so you don't get all that edge fuzz. PM me and I'll send you some of our bits that have been take out of service because they have started to show signs of melamine edge wear. Likely run fine for most home projects and if nothing else will give you a chance to evaluate their performance. You can buy Onsurd's coated bits, 3/8" compression spirals abut $85 after bulk discounts, excellent bits. Run @ 16,000rpm & 600"/min. feed.


Thanks ever so much!
PM on the way!


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## DavidR8

I tried out vcarving for the first time.
Went ok in my books.



Tried using my corner finder today and ran into a bit of a problem.
When I tried to clip on the magnet that is connected to the DC0 I got a spark.
Eventually found a proximity sensor with an internal short sending 24v+ to the sensor body thus energizing the entire steel mass so connecting the DC0 lead was dead short and shut down the software.
New sensor is on it's way. 
In the mean time I made a quick sensor mount out of acrylic to isolate the sensor from the frame.


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## extropic

The vcarving looks great.

What's left to do before you consider the machine completed?


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## DavidR8

extropic said:


> The vcarving looks great.
> 
> What's left to do before you consider the machine completed?


The biggest item to complete is the limit switch wiring. Right now it's just temporarily connected so I could get running.

Currently I have five limit switches each running a separate cable back to the enclosure.
They each have a 24v+ and 24v- and a signal wire.
There's no need to have five separate sets of 24v +/- wires so I bought one of these things in the photo to consolidate the power and signal wires from the five switches into one eight pair cable.
This block gets mounted up on the end of the X axis gantry where all of the switch wires enter the cable chain.
Each set of three switch wires go into one of the six, three-pin terminal blocks. I'll only need five as I only have five switches.
Then I connect the eight pair cable to the strip of terminals at the bottom. The two left pins are 24v+ and 24v-. The other six are for the signal wires from the switches.
I will connect one pair of wires to the 24v+ and 24v- and five wires into five of the remaining terminals.
I will run this cable to the enclosure where I I connect the 24v+ and 24v- wires to the 24v+ and 24v- distribution bus. The five wires for signal go to the control board.

Other than that I have to connect my e-stop switch and then I can make the door for the enclosure and button it up.


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## macardoso

DavidR8 said:


> The biggest item to complete is the limit switch wiring. Right now it's just temporarily connected so I could get running.
> 
> Currently I have five limit switches each running a separate cable back to the enclosure.
> They each have a 24v+ and 24v- and a signal wire.
> There's no need to have five separate sets of 24v +/- wires so I bought one of these things in the photo to consolidate the power and signal wires from the five switches into one eight pair cable.
> This block gets mounted up on the end of the X axis gantry where all of the switch wires enter the cable chain.
> Each set of three switch wires go into one of the six, three-pin terminal blocks. I'll only need five as I only have five switches.
> Then I connect the eight pair cable to the strip of terminals at the bottom. The two left pins are 24v+ and 24v-. The other six are for the signal wires from the switches.
> I will connect one pair of wires to the 24v+ and 24v- and five wires into five of the remaining terminals.
> I will run this cable to the enclosure where I I connect the 24v+ and 24v- wires to the 24v+ and 24v- distribution bus. The five wires for signal go to the control board.
> 
> Other than that I have to connect my e-stop switch and then I can make the door for the enclosure and button it up.
> View attachment 400422


Can you share a link for that board? I like that one.


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## DavidR8

macardoso said:


> Can you share a link for that board? I like that one.


Here's what I bought:








						16.2US $ 10% OFF|Proximity Switch Sensor Terminal Block Two wire Three wire PLC Input Module Photoelectric Conversion Board NPN / PNP  6 way|Switches|   - AliExpress
					

Smarter Shopping, Better Living!  Aliexpress.com




					www.aliexpress.com
				



Here's one like it for eight switches





						DIN Rail Mount PLC 8 Channel PNP Input Screw Terminal Block IO photoelectric Proximity Switch Sensor Terminal Block., Controls - Amazon Canada
					

DIN Rail Mount PLC 8 Channel PNP Input Screw Terminal Block IO photoelectric Proximity Switch Sensor Terminal Block. in Controls.



					www.amazon.ca


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## DavidR8

Started rewiring my limit switches into the consolidation block.
Block is mounted at the end of the cable tray on the gantry.


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## DavidR8

I am utterly blown away by this community.
These beautiful Onsrud, solid carbide two-flute router bits just arrived.

Thank you so much @Larry$!


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## Larry$

DavidR8 said:


> Onsrud, solid carbide two-flute endmills


Just to be sure that it is understood, these are compression *router* bits used for cutting sheet goods in woodworking. They pull up from the bottom and down from the top so no surface tear out is done to the material. These were used to cut 120 to 150 panels on our CNC router and replaced when slight damage would start to show on melamine panels. We run at conservative speeds and feeds so smaller parts aren't pushed out of alignment. 16,000 rpm, 600"/min.  We've had this 5 x 10 Komo router for a long time. 12 hp spindle, 8 position tool changer and a drill box. A 40 hp vacuum pump holds the parts in place. Typical time to cut & drill a 5 x 10 sheet into cabinet parts is 6-7 minutes with about 4 minutes to stick bar code  labels on & change out boards & parts. Old Tech, new systems can be much faster. 
David, when you program your router, start the cut outside of the part and do a tangential curve into the cut line to prevent plunge chipping. The bottom of the bit will be pulling up and want to lift the surface of the work and it will chip. Once the bit is in past the up spiral all will be fine. Cut into your spoil board slightly so that the flutes are cutting at the panel surface rather than the tips of the bit. Theses bits can be sharpened but the coating will be lost.


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## DavidR8

Larry$ said:


> Just to be sure that it is understood, these are compression *router* bits used for cutting sheet goods in woodworking. They pull up from the bottom and down from the top so no surface tear out is done to the material. These were used to cut 120 to 150 panels on our CNC router and replaced when slight damage would start to show on melamine panels. We run at conservative speeds and feeds so smaller parts aren't pushed out of alignment. 16,000 rpm, 600"/min.  We've had this 5 x 10 Komo router for a long time. 12 hp spindle, 8 position tool changer and a drill box. A 40 hp vacuum pump holds the parts in place. Typical time to cut & drill a 5 x 10 sheet into cabinet parts is 6-7 minutes with about 4 minutes to stick bar code  labels on & change out boards & parts. Old Tech, new systems can be much faster.
> David, when you program your router, start the cut outside of the part and do a tangential curve into the cut line to prevent plunge chipping. The bottom of the bit will be pulling up and want to lift the surface of the work and it will chip. Once the bit is in past the up spiral all will be fine. Cut into your spoil board slightly so that the flutes are cutting at the panel surface rather than the tips of the bit. Theses bits can be sharpened but the coating will be lost.


Thanks again Larry, I _wondered_ if they were compression bits but having never seen one I wasn't sure. 
Really appreciate the advice on toolpath programming, I'm still learning that whole side of the game.


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## Tobias2017

Hello DavidR8 I was glad to find this thread.  The PrintNC is on my to do list so it’s great to read through the whole process. I am wondering how you decided on the size machine (and if you could maybe put up a picture to give an idea of scale).   The temptation is to go as big as possible, I am sort of trying to decide on what is practical.  Is your machine the “standard” size?  Thinking I would be starting this in the fall, so have started keeping an eye on the discord again, apparently  there are developments, a mini and a rev.4.
Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing.


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## DavidR8

Tobias2017 said:


> Hello DavidR8 I was glad to find this thread.  The PrintNC is on my to do list so it’s great to read through the whole process. I am wondering how you decided on the size machine (and if you could maybe put up a picture to give an idea of scale).   The temptation is to go as big as possible, I am sort of trying to decide on what is practical.  Is your machine the “standard” size?  Thinking I would be starting this in the fall, so have started keeping an eye on the discord again, apparently  there are developments, a mini and a rev.4.
> Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing.


Hey Tobias, thanks very much. It's been a supremely satisfying project. Mainly because at the beginning my CNC experience was a two-axix CNC plasma cutter which was much easier to build both mechanically and electronically.
MIne is small by PrintNC standards, the interior is 32" wide by 24" deep. I have a cutting area about 26" w x 14" deep. Because the spindle is mounted on the front of the gantry, the biggest loss comes in the Y axis.
I think my table is 40"w x 32" deep. I intend on building an enclosure for it so I allowed space for that.
On the outside the frame is 36" w x 24" deep. The overall machine is wider though because of the cable chain on the side which add probably another six inches. I built it to sit on my welding table thinking that I could move it off when not using it. HAH! Yeah that's not a feasible option.
If I'm not mistaken the stock build will take a half sheet of ply.
I think for sizing your build a couple of factors need to be considered:

What do you imagine making?
How much space do you have?
A word of caution if you only have 120v power available: buy the 240v spindle and omit the VFD from the Aliexpress kit as the VFDs are a bit hit and miss quality wise. A  name brand 120v --> 240v 3-phase VFD is easy to get.

When I bought my kit I specified 120v because I thought that I'd get a 120v-->240v 3-phase VFD.

However specifying a 120v kit means you a _120v 3-phase spindle_ and a VFD with120v input that outputs 120v 3-phase power. If something happens to the VFD you can only replace it with another VFD of the same quality.

The reason is that 120v 3-phase power is only available from the Chinese VFDs. I called half a dozen VFD suppliers across the country and no one has a VFD with 120v input-->120v 3-phase output.

So if my VFD craps out I have to either buy a 240v spindle (I have a spare 240v VFD) or take my chances on another Chinese VFD.


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## JFL4066

For what it's worth...

I just blew through two Chinese VFD's , Delta and HuanYang.  No error on my part. They both stopped working after an hour of use. A real PITA.
I just bought a DuraPulse made in Taiwan from AutoMation Direct.  EXTREMELY pleased. Excellent quick set up and info on videos. You can even download a free windows program to setup/manage the drive parameters! I'm running it on my 2HP mill. Can't say enough about it.


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## DavidR8

JFL4066 said:


> For what it's worth...
> 
> I just blew through two Chinese VFD's , Delta and HuanYang. No error on my part. They both stopped working after an hour of use. A real PITA.
> I just bought a DuraPulse made in Taiwan from AutoMation Direct. EXTREMELY pleased. Excellent quick set up and info on videos. You can even download a free windows program to setup/manage the drive parameters! I'm running it on my 2HP mill. Can't say enough about it.



Durapulse has also been recommended by another PrintNC builder. My challenge is that I have a spindle which requires 120v 3-phase which is not available except from an import VFD. 


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## JFL4066

"So if my VFD craps out I have to either buy a 240v spindle (I have a spare 240v VFD) or take my chances on another Chinese VFD."
I vote:  Stick with a standard. Get a 240 spindle when you have to.  

Thanks for the info though. Gotta watch very closely what the Chinese are selling.


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## DavidR8

JFL4066 said:


> "So if my VFD craps out I have to either buy a 240v spindle (I have a spare 240v VFD) or take my chances on another Chinese VFD."
> I vote:  Stick with a standard. Get a 240 spindle when you have to.
> 
> Thanks for the info though. Gotta watch very closely what the Chinese are selling.


100% I'm annoyed that I made this choice now. But on the plus side I have a working machine that I built myself


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## JFL4066

That's right! Chalk it up to learning. Now make some chips!


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## JFL4066

I also plan on making a PrintNC in the fall.


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## DavidR8

JFL4066 said:


> I also plan on making a PrintNC in the fall.


That's awesome! It's a fantastic machine.


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## Larry$

JFL4066 said:


> AutoMation Direct


Great company, service and products. I've used them for many years. I got hung up while installing one of their programable temperature controllers. One call and it was solved. Prices are good and a huge selection.


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## DavidR8

Larry$ said:


> Great company, service and products. I've used them for many years. I got hung up while installing one of their programable temperature controllers. One call and it was solved. Prices are good and a huge selection.


Totally agree. The replacement inductive switches I ordered are things of beauty.


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