# Heating the Shop in Vermont



## vtcnc

Temperature outside is 15F, inside the shop started at 30F. Fired up the pellet stove about 20 minutes ago. Hopefully I can get it up above 50F in under an hour. Would really like to make some progress on the Welding Table project today.


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## mmcmdl

I'm sending some more snow up your way . Get ready !   Just got off the phone with a realtor up my way in the Adirondacks . She said they were going to get nailed tomorrow night .


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## vtcnc

We were supposed to get 10" of snow yesterday. Turned out to be a huge letdown...only 3-4". So I'm kind of hoping for a repeat of that tomorrow. Although the forecast is only calling for 1-3" which is just fine with me.


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## mmcmdl

Forecast for Md is now 6-10" tonight , right about the time I leave for work . Most likely the plant will be empty again . Another fire watch night .


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## Cadillac

I keep mine set at 50 I hated getting condensation when the machines would warm up. We have about the same weather is 12* right now negatives at night all threw February. Cant wait for spring


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## Cadillac

Have at least 2’ on the ground and we lucked out storm went to the east so only lake effect tonight and tomorrow.


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## nnam

I used to live a hot climate.  So something as north as Vermont is hard for me to imagine, let alone living there, but I know if putting me there, I probably can.  Then not too long ago, due to Covid isolation, I watched youtube videos of best city to live, just to explore what's outside of my walls, and Vermont has some of the best cities in the US.

Well, you may have a good trade off there.


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## mmcmdl

Vermont is a beautiful state full of mountains for skiing and leaf peeking . Used to ski Killington , Stowe , Suicide Six back when the knees could take it .


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## nnam

vtcnc said:


> View attachment 355886
> 
> 
> Would really like to make some progress on the Welding Table project today.


Do you have hood for welding fume to exhaust outside? Maybe super clean metal would tig weld without smoke but in my experience, it always something during the process.  I am no welding expert nor close to it though.


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## vtcnc

nnam said:


> Do you have hood for welding fume to exhaust outside? Maybe super clean metal would tig weld without smoke but in my experience, it always something during the process. I am no welding expert nor close to it though.








Made this a few weeks ago. It works ok.


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## vtcnc

End of the day temp and humidity in the shop after four hours...








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## slodat

I put together a smart thermostat control on my electric heaters in my shop to help with this problem. I am able to control the heat through my phone and to program it. Now, my shop is up to temp when I am there. It works great. 

I recently split the two buildings onto their own thermostat. I keep one area warmer. Again, works great. I have a thread on garage journal explaining how I did it.


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## vtcnc

slodat said:


> I put together a smart thermostat control on my electric heaters in my shop to help with this problem. I am able to control the heat through my phone and to program it. Now, my shop is up to temp when I am there. It works great.
> 
> I recently split the two buildings onto their own thermostat. I keep one area warmer. Again, works great. I have a thread on garage journal explaining how I did it.



Impressive setup. I’ll bet you like having that convenience. 

My pellet stove igniter is defective so it’s gel start for now, and no intention to do a remote start. That would be cool though!

I’m not thrilled with its output- first pellet stove I’ve owned so I don’t know why I expected something like wood heat. It just doesn’t have the oomph you get out of a good wood fire. Maybe that is just the Vermonter in me talking.


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## Braeden P

heater? I dont have one so i have to use my lathe when it is 25 out with my sleeves rolled up that gets cold quick! but the shop will have a heater    must be really cold up there


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## V35B

Those of you up North can keep that cold and snow! It has been down below zero twice this week here in North Texas, and below freezing for a week. There is still 8” of snow on the ground. My shop was 28 inside when it was 5 outside. I finally fired the heater up yesterday and warmed it up to 50. The condensation was terrible as I expected it would be.


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## Ken from ontario

I have lived in my current house since 2012, the first 5 years in winter I used to walk into a 30F° cold shop and quickly heat it with whatever heater I had available, from Kerosene to radiant  ,infrared, etc. all my tools were to cold to touch, my mill was making strange noise at the start up, I also had to deal with the moisture on cold surfaces.
 5 years ago I bought a 220V electric garage heater and set the thermostat on it on low just enough to keep the temperature around 50F, 24/7.  the difference in shop was huge.
It does cost to do do something like what I've done but the cost is not that high,~$30 a month extra but when I walk in my shop it is  comfortable and I can start working right away,  of course as soon as I walk in I increase the temp. but it is easier to go from 50F up 5 degrees than heating from30F. to 55F.


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## BGHansen

It is so nice to walk into a warm shop for us guys in the North during winter!  I remember having to open the 16' slider door to get light in the shop to work because the fluorescent lights wouldn't kick on when it was below 20 F.  I put in a 125,000 BTU overhead propane heater and leave the shop at 40 F.  It'll heat up to 50 F in about 15 minutes.

Bruce


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## Tozguy

Bryan, just wondering if that is an inline fan in the welding exhaust ducts?
What diameter and how do you like it?


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## vtcnc

Tozguy said:


> Bryan, just wondering if that is an inline fan in the welding exhaust ducts?
> What diameter and how do you like it?


It is an inline fan. 6" diameter. I bought it on Amazon for about $30. It works OK, I think I will upgrade it to an 8" or 10" at some point to get more CFM. It works now by getting probably half the fumes out of the area when welding.


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## middle.road

36% humidity in the shop? How sweet that would be. Everything is rusted here again.
I wanted to do a pellet or a coal stove but I've got no wall space to put one without some major re-arrangement.
I was thinking of trying a couple of terra cotta plant pot heaters just to keep the condensation at bay.

Meanwhile in EastTN: We've been lucky as all get out. Storm fronts keep splitting and going North or South of us.
It's colder in the shop than it is outside.


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## GunsOfNavarone

My wife has been on me for years to heat my shop...Colorado....cold/snow etc.. I always told her it really wasn't viable because of price, probably needed infrastructure addition of some sort, garage isn't well insulted not to mention, not air tight. Anyway, fast forward a couple years and out of desperation, I tried what I considered to be inexpensive enough that I wouldn't mind if it didn't work, but also something capable enough that it had a fighting chance. On Amazon I found a 220v heater with reviews that matched what my situation was, on sale it was $86! Though I had to get some sizable (12/3 cable if memory serves which was like $60 more)
Wow. I was speechless. I have pics to show my results, but it was taking the temp from 40 degrees to 75 in and hour and a half. 60 degrees only took about 40 mins. Life changing in the winter. Here is a link if anyone is interested. I stand by it and if you shop were bigger than my 2 car, perhaps 2 of them or preheat longer?
Shop Heater


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## Ken from ontario

Hey G of Navaron, that's the one I was talking about in my post, I marked the dial exactly where it clicks , I know if I set it just past that mark, it'll keep the shop (insulated) around 50°, best $100 bucks I've ever spent.


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## vtcnc

Dang. That is a good deal and mounts up on the ceiling to boot!

I may consider redoing this. My shop is 16’x24’ so I’m imagine it would heat up quickly based on your story.

I’d also be able to get rid of the pellet stove, not have to buy pellets, and make some valuable space available in the shop!

Gears are turning....


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## GunsOfNavarone

@Ken from ontario  Sorry, I guess I didn't read the whole thread, but if nothing else, I second your suggestion. We just had a cold snap here of -16 (before wind chill factor) I wouldn't have been able to work in the garage had I not bought that unit. I have a new garage door going in 3 weeks, that will take care of the air leaks...things will only get better. Seriously @vtcnc get this heater! Just make sure you have a 220 outlet with a 30 amp breaker and you're golden.


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## vtcnc

Ken from ontario said:


> Hey G of Navaron, that's the one I was talking about in my post, I marked the dial exactly where it clicks , I know if I set it just past that mark, it'll keep the shop (insulated) around 50°, best $100 bucks I've ever spent.



Ken how big is your shop? Just wondering how to compare to what it would cost to heat my shop.


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## GunsOfNavarone




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## vtcnc

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @Ken from ontario Sorry, I guess I didn't read the whole thread, but if nothing else, I second your suggestion. We just had a cold snap here of -16 (before wind chill factor) I wouldn't have been able to work in the garage had I not bought that unit. I have a new garage door going in 3 weeks, that will take care of the air leaks...things will only get better. Seriously @vtcnc get this heater! Just make sure you have a 220 outlet with a 30 amp breaker and you're golden.



I have a 60 amp 240v service coming into the shop so that won’t be a problem.


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## Ken from ontario

vtcnc said:


> Dang. That is a good deal and mounts up on the ceiling to boot!
> 
> I may consider redoing this. My shop is 16’x24’ so I’m imagine it would heat up quickly based on your story.
> 
> I’d also be able to get rid of the pellet stove, not have to buy pellets, and make some valuable space available in the shop!
> 
> Gears are turning....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My shop is smaller than yours,,~ 12' X 16' ,  Comfort zone heaters(like the ones we're taking about) come in two different Wattage ratings,, the one I have is 3000W-5000W, I have it set on 5000Watt but the one size up is 5000w-7500W.

I would definitely get the 7500W for your 16'x24' garage, the price here of both units are often close ,maybe $10 to $15 more.

One more thing that has helped me a great deal is to have a small circulating fan on a timer, going ON/Off  every 45 minutes,(on the lowest setting), Mine is facing the ceiling and pushes the warm air down. it's a little $20 fan but it's doing a very good job circulating the air in shop and keeping the "cold zones"/ corners the same temperature as the rest of the shop.


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## vtcnc

Well, now you got me thinking about my electrical requirements.

200A service coming into the house. 60A 240V subpanel to the garage - approx. 80-90 ft. from the main panel, fed through the basement and underground.

I'm going to need at least a 30A breaker to feed a 240V future project in the shop...it looks like these 240V heaters require a 30-50A breaker for protection, so I will likely be overloading my subpanel if I'm running the CNC lathe and the heater at the same time.

Questions, questions, questions:

1) Is it safe to run a separate feed from the main panel - probably something like 8AWG copper to the heater and feed it off a 40A breaker back at the main panel in the house?

2) I believe the code says no more than a 3% voltage drop off the main panel. Is that true and do any exceptions apply for electric heaters?

3) I would be pulling this through the same underground conduit the sub-panel is fed from. Is this kosher? I think it is currently fed with 6AWG. I can't remember off hand.


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## FOMOGO

Go to an online conduit fill chart and make sure your existing conduit is large enough to accept the new line.   Mike


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## Ken from ontario

You'll need at least one 240V outlet in your shop . I suggest you get an electrician to come and look at the electrical panel and it might not be as expensive/time consuming as you think, mine cost $150 and a local electrician put a 30 A breaker in the main panel and wired the 240V outlet in my shop.


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## vtcnc

Ken from ontario said:


> You'll need at least one 240V outlet in your shop . I suggest you get an electrician to come and look at the electrical panel and it might not be as expensive/time consuming as you think, mine cost $150 and a local electrician put a 30 A breaker in the main panel and wired the 240V outlet in my shop.


I don't have a problem wiring it myself. I'm speaking more from the perspective of what is allowed in the code. Yes, I could put the outlet in but for the 7,500W heater, they recommend a 50A breaker. That can't come off my 60A subpanel if I expect to put another 30A 240V 1PH outlet in the same subpanel for my lathe. So, my question is can I run off my main panel back in the house with such a long run.


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## Boswell

if the conduit is large enough, you could replace the existing 6 ga with #4 or #2 so you can just have a 100amp sub panel in the garage.


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## FOMOGO

#6AWG copper would get you 50amp to 49'. Mike


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## nnam

This may sound weird, but you probably can get by with what you already got.  Just plug the heater in, and turn it off when you use the lathe, unless you plan to run it all the time.  Also, a 120v 15amp heater parabola radiant heater is pretty good when aim at a person directly.
Not as good as a separate line, but it can do the job.


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## vtcnc

Boswell said:


> if the conduit is large enough, you could replace the existing 6 ga with #4 or #2 so you can just have a 100amp sub panel in the garage.


That's actually a good idea.


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## COMachinist

I live down near Colorado Springs it was -22f last Monday, but that is rare. I need some heat in my shop as well for the 20 to 40F days. I looked at these heaters and a lot of them has problems with the internal fan, by the way the reviews state you can not get a replacement fan for the forced air. So I have held off getting a couple of these to keep my shop working warm some what. I’m really tired of buying China junk, then having to reworking it after a week, or having to buy another one. Looked into putting 2 100lb propane tanks in and buying a real forced air shop heater. I have natural gas to the house, but would have to run a gas line about 200 ft to the shop.$$$$$ My Son has 2 150k btu in his shop on gas and it heats his shop with out a problem. He has a business, auto repair, has about 7500 sqft with 15ft ceilings. My shop is only 16x48 with insulation and double pane windows, the over head door is insulated as well. Been wondering what it would take to make my shop workable?
CH.


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## GunsOfNavarone

@COMachinist  if you read my post, I was in the same boat. Too much money to do it right, didn't want to buy junk that didn't work or didn't work well enough. I played that game in my head for well over 2 years...closer to 3. This was one of those no brainers. If it didn't work, Amazon has amazing customer service (but maybe you need to know how to work them...I don't know but the care I've gotten....again, amazing.) and it got my wife off my back and I could tell her.."TOLD YA"!
Anyway, she won that bet and best $150 I've spent. I live right near Evergreen here in Colorado at the base of the hills and my shop has NEVER seen 75 degrees in the dead of winter. I'm glad I took the leap, if it only lasts a year, well the unit is well under $90. I could spend that a year for heat and not blink and eye. Time will tell.


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## Dabbler

@vtcnc My shop is also 40A 240V, but I chose to use a 55000 BTU natural gas heater.  Electricity is expensive enough and the temps get cold enough that the cost would bankrupt me.  As it is, I'm at about 30$ a month to keep it above freezing (3C) and heating to 10C when I'm working there.  I do this perhaps 10 days a month for a few hours.


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## GunsOfNavarone

@Dabbler   and I would agree with that though other than getting a decent supply of natural gas to the shop being a decent expense for me. I won't know the cost of this latest cold snap and the electricity bill for at lease a month. I'm not out there daily but I saw a $12 increase for last month. (+/- 3 days a week 4 to7 hours) This is one part of the puzzle I really would like to have some solid answers on.


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## keeena

I second the natural gas / propane option (100-200 gal tank). I just installed this in December - 45,000 BTU. Kicking myself for not doing it sooner. Its direct vent with separated combustion. Up-front cost much higher than electric of course.


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## vtcnc

keeena said:


> I second the natural gas / propane option (100-200 gal tank). I just installed this in December - 45,000 BTU. Kicking myself for not doing it sooner. Its direct vent with separated combustion. Up-front cost much higher than electric of course.
> 
> View attachment 357156


Mind if I ask how much that cost to purchase and install? Or did you install yourself?


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## keeena

I did most of the work myself - only hired for the natural gas line install. Was a bit over $1k for the line. I thought even that was a bit high but it was a competitive price in my area. 

I already had a stub in the garage; had them put a tee in a few years ago when I did the gas dryer. The work was essentially a 2 foot tap off the existing line, ~30 feet along the wall and then 8 feet up (which is the part you can see in the picture). Would have been fairly easy DIY, but I'm wasn't messing with the liability.


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## GunsOfNavarone

Wow, 1k and it was already in the garage? I guess this is why I stayed away from gas even though I knew it was a god choice, my line is nowhere near the shop.


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## 7milesup

It is amazing how locales dictate prices for services and products.   $1000 just to run the gas line would be considered highway robbery around here.

To me, electricity for heat always seems like a poor choice.  The install cost is low but long term heating cost is high compared to natural gas.  My very first "shop" which consisted of a poorly insulated two car garage was heated with a natural gas furnace.  I purchased a used one that someone was taking out of their home.  I think I paid $100 for it.


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## Dabbler

@vtcnc my install of the gas line in '2000 was a couple of hundred dollars.

 I installed a $75 regular house furnace I bought used, and it worked well for 10 years.  I upgraded to a ceiling mount 50,000 BTU 5 years ago.  Both furnaces were self installed.  -- not exactly in line with code BTW, but I've gas fitted for years.  If everything is in place a gas fitter should charge minumum plus parts, about 200$ for the install in Calgary prices...

those 50K BTU furnaces can be had for about 300-400 bucks, new up here.  So 800 bucks if your run isn't too long.


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## rabler

I grew up in Duluth, Mn, and did a lot of work in a wood heated shop.  Most of my career in Savannah, Ga was using the garage for a shop with no options other than door open/closed. Welding with the heat and humidity in the 90's is tough.  

For my retirement shop (about 1000 sq ft), I went the natural gas heater route, very much like keeena, but an 80,000 BTU unit.  Trenched the gas line from the house, along with cable TV and internet. And a dehumidifier.  All DIY.  I currently also have window AC unit in the workshop.  Frankly it's great not having to deal with rust.  I keep the shop set at 45 when I'm not there, and it will heat up to 60 (my working temp) in less than 15 minutes.

My garage (separate building from the shop) has a mini-split HVAC unit.  Eventually I'd like to put one of those in the workshop too.


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## keeena

@GunsOfNavarone  - Would you guys believe that the HVAC companies (the large "brand" HVAC companies in my area) wanted ~$5250 for the entire install? That is with a ~$1k Modine. So roughly $4250 for the gas line, hang, electric, and punch a vent thru the wall. And on top of that: I doubt the install would be as tidy. Yeah - it's expensive in my area. 

For ref: the heater I got was $1500 plus $200 for the concentric vent box. The heater I got has the upgraded stainless heat exchanger - felt it was worth the extra bucks.


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## GunsOfNavarone

@keeena  I would, this is what scared me off. BTW, I'm an ex sport bike guy...whatcha ride? (avatar)


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## nnam

Near my  previous house, there was a house exploded due to old gas line on the outside of the house. I don't know how outside line can cause gas to enter the inside. After that, the whole neighborhood got their line replaced.  Many houses have concrete parking redo for free because the line is below it.


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## Buffalo21

nnam said:


> Near my  previous house, there was a house exploded due to old gas line on the outside of the house. I don't know how outside line can cause gas to enter the inside. After that, the whole neighborhood got their line replaced.  Many houses have concrete parking redo for free because the line is below it.


The gas leaks out of the bad pipe, seeps into the ground, findings it way into the house, through cracks or holes in the foundation, we had an elementary school explode for that reason about 30 yrs ago, luckily for the students, it happened at about 2 am,


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## 7milesup

keeena said:


> @GunsOfNavarone  - Would you guys believe that the HVAC companies (the large "brand" HVAC companies in my area) wanted ~$5250 for the entire install? That is with a ~$1k Modine. So roughly $4250 for the gas line, hang, electric, and punch a vent thru the wall. And on top of that: I doubt the install would be as tidy. Yeah - it's expensive in my area.
> 
> For ref: the heater I got was $1500 plus $200 for the concentric vent box. The heater I got has the upgraded stainless heat exchanger - felt it was worth the extra bucks.



That install cost is crazy.  I would dig the trench by hand, no literally by hand, for that kind of money.


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## keeena

GunsOfNavarone said:


> @keeena  I would, this is what scared me off. BTW, I'm an ex sport bike guy...whatcha ride? (avatar)


The bike in the pic is a Triumph Daytona 675R.

Did you ditch the sport or just move onto other types of bikes?


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## GunsOfNavarone

@keeena    Got too old for the riding position, moved into making my own bobber/short chops now. I started with a GPZ550 back in 86, GSXR600 was my last sport bike, many in between, but man I love watching them race still... Sorry! Back to topic!


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## COMachinist

BGHansen said:


> It is so nice to walk into a warm shop for us guys in the North during winter!  I remember having to open the 16' slider door to get light in the shop to work because the fluorescent lights wouldn't kick on when it was below 20 F.  I put in a 125,000 BTU overhead propane heater and leave the shop at 40 F.  It'll heat up to 50 F in about 15 minutes.
> 
> Bruce


About how much Propane does a125k BTU use? To keep the shop at 40 then up to 50F.
CH


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## FOMOGO

I have a 120k 96% efficient furnace. Heat 2100 sf,  ceilings average 14', very well insulated. I keep it at 50, and raise it to 62 when I'm working, which this winter is around 50hrs a week. Looking like I will use around 400 gal for six months. Comes out to just under $100 a month. Mike


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## BGHansen

COMachinist said:


> About how much Propane does a125k BTU use? To keep the shop at 40 then up to 50F.
> CH


I just checked my 500-gallon tank which was filled in October.  It's at 60%, or about 100 gallons used so far this winter.  That's about $160 at our current propane rate or $40 a month.  Probably end the year with a $250 heating bill.  Other than my wife's engagement ring, it's the best money I've ever spent!  I have at least $50K of equipment and tooling in the shop, gives me a 365-day work year.  I consider it a cost of doing business at this point.  

I thought about sticking our house furnace in the shop and upgrading the one in the house.  But I opted for an overhead heater so as not to give up the floor space.  All of the Mr. Heater MAXX heaters were rated at 85% efficiency at the time.  I could have gotten by with a 50K BTU at $450, or a 80K BTU for $500, but went with the 125K BTU at $700.  The vent stacks are common as is the gas run.  The 50K would have taken about 1 hour to heat from 40 F to 50 F, about 20 minutes for the 80K.  The 125K heats it up from 40 - 50 in about 10 minutes.  It's kicking 15% of the heat up the stack, so more loss per minute while the 125K is running, but it doesn't have to run as long to heat up the shop.  The overall waste going up the chimney is the same.  To me, it was worth the extra $200 or $250 to heat things up in a hurry.

I've got 3 ceiling fans on the opposite side of the room that are on the lowest speed moving air up.  I have a clock/thermometer on the wall that's a foot from the ceiling that reads around 57 F after the initial heat up from 40 F.  The thermostat is across the room from the heater out of the air flow at chest height.  After about 20 minutes, the temp up high across the room is 52 F, pretty happy with the circulation.  I used to have the fans on high but would feel the down-draft when standing next to the far walls.  

The down-side of the overhead heater is the fairly concentrated warm air blast when it kicks on.  Loose papers on a bench 20 feet away end up on the floor.  Small price to pay for the comfort.  If I had an infinite budget and was starting from scratch, I'd go with a heated floor.  For me, this set-up is a good 2nd choice.

Bruce


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## vtcnc

Quick Update. I was at a family get together about a month ago and my uncle was going on and on about his mini-split systems he recently installed. Long story short, I was pretty much sold on the idea. I purchased a 12K BTU unit on Amazon. $850 delivered. Took me a couple of days to get it fully installed.

A few compromises were made: 1) I installed the outdoor unit it about 4 inches closer to the wall then they recommended. I wanted as much protection from falling leaves and snow as I could afford under the 12" eaves of my shop. 2) I cut and flared the 16' refrigerant lines down to about 9'. The manufacturer states that the compressor and refrigerant are sized for 25ft. of line. Depending on who you ask on the internet, this either matters or it doesn't. The "it doesn't matter group" says that the system is sized for up to 25ft. so its fine, don't worry. The "it matters" group says that by cutting the lines, you are making the compressor work harder. I'm curious if there are any HVAC mini-split installers on the forum that can weigh in on this matter.

How do I like it, you ask? Holy crap this thing is sweet. Yesterday I got home about 6:00p and went into the shop. 80F outside, about 73F inside. My shop is pretty well insulated. About 65% humidity. Turned on the mini-split, it is preset to 65F and within 15 minutes, I'm down to 68 degrees and dropping. Humidity dropped about 5% in that period. This thing exchanges a bunch of air quickly.

I haven't cranked up the heater to see how warm it _can _get, but it does work and it starts pushing heat quickly and in decent volume. A couple of things to note is that it takes up a decent amount of wall space, but the upside is I gained a spot on the floor (no pellet stove). It is also 120V, I ran conduit on a dedicated circuit to the unit on a 20A breaker. The noisy part is outside and when I say noisy, I mean you can detect a small electrical hum coming from the compressor when you are close enough to the unit. Based on the environment up here, and what I think my usage will be, I'm expecting a $20-40/month increase on my utility bill. All in all, I'm very satisfied with this. I reserve the right to change my mind after January when I'm using it a few times per week!

Here are some pics:


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## rabler

vtcnc said:


> Quick Update. I was at a family get together about a month ago and my uncle was going on and on about his mini-split systems he recently installed. Long story short, I was pretty much sold on the idea. I purchased a 12K BTU unit on Amazon. $850 delivered. Took me a couple of days to get it fully installed.
> ...



I've installed quite a few of the Pioneer mini-splits.  I'm impressed with the functionality.  I probably lean more toward cooling than you will (Southern Indiana) but they are my heat source in the garage.  (The separate workshop uses gas heat).  I'm in the process of installing 5 units in our house, using the multi-zone outdoor compressors, so two compressors.  This will replace the 30 year old central AC, keeping the gas heat furnace.

My two complaints on these units are 1) the symbols for heat/fan/cool/dry modes on the remote are tiny, so distinguishing between the modes is difficult with older eyes, and 2) the lowest temperature you can set is something like 62 degrees, I would prefer to be able to set the garage to low 50's when I'm not using it.  I end up using "Freeze Protection" mode which targets the mid-40's.

When the new workshop gets built, I plan on a 30k unit for a well insulated 2200 sq ft.

I'm *NOT* an HVAC tech, so take this with a that in mind, but my impression is that shorter pipes are fine for the charge.  A fair amount of the charge is used in the units so the relative change per foot is small.  The base charge is 30 ounces.  The technical brochure calls for an additional charge per foot over 25 feet of 0.16 ounces per foot.  So at 9 feet, you are at 16 feet less than the minimum charge, or 2.56 ounces over.  That is a fairly small percentage.    You are only 7 feet under the minimum pipe length they sell (16ft).  I suspect that your are well within the normal operating range of the compressor.


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## Janderso

Yeah buddy, it's nice to have a cool shop in the summer and a warm shop in the winter.
I bought the one ton Mr. Cool brand =DIY for $1,300.
Love every minute of it.


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## woodchucker

rabler said:


> I've installed quite a few of the Pioneer mini-splits.  I'm impressed with the functionality.  I probably lean more toward cooling than you will (Southern Indiana) but they are my heat source in the garage.  (The separate workshop uses gas heat).  I'm in the process of installing 5 units in our house, using the multi-zone outdoor compressors, so two compressors.  This will replace the 30 year old central AC, keeping the gas heat furnace.
> 
> My two complaints on these units are 1) the symbols for heat/fan/cool/dry modes on the remote are tiny, so distinguishing between the modes is difficult with older eyes, and 2) the lowest temperature you can set is something like 62 degrees, I would prefer to be able to set the garage to low 50's when I'm not using it.  I end up using "Freeze Protection" mode which targets the mid-40's.
> 
> When the new workshop gets built, I plan on a 30k unit for a well insulated 2200 sq ft.
> 
> I'm *NOT* an HVAC tech, so take this with a that in mind, but my impression is that shorter pipes are fine for the charge.  A fair amount of the charge is used in the units so the relative change per foot is small.  The base charge is 30 ounces.  The technical brochure calls for an additional charge per foot over 25 feet of 0.16 ounces per foot.  So at 9 feet, you are at 16 feet less than the minimum charge, or 2.56 ounces over.  That is a fairly small percentage.    You are only 7 feet under the minimum pipe length they sell (16ft).  I suspect that your are well within the normal operating range of the compressor.


so take a blue and ,red marker and mark the heat icon in RED and the cool in blue
do the dry in YELLOW for desert sand...


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## vtcnc

rabler said:


> I've installed quite a few of the Pioneer mini-splits.  I'm impressed with the functionality.  I probably lean more toward cooling than you will (Southern Indiana) but they are my heat source in the garage.  (The separate workshop uses gas heat).  I'm in the process of installing 5 units in our house, using the multi-zone outdoor compressors, so two compressors.  This will replace the 30 year old central AC, keeping the gas heat furnace.
> 
> My two complaints on these units are 1) the symbols for heat/fan/cool/dry modes on the remote are tiny, so distinguishing between the modes is difficult with older eyes, and 2) the lowest temperature you can set is something like 62 degrees, I would prefer to be able to set the garage to low 50's when I'm not using it.  I end up using "Freeze Protection" mode which targets the mid-40's.
> 
> When the new workshop gets built, I plan on a 30k unit for a well insulated 2200 sq ft.
> 
> I'm *NOT* an HVAC tech, so take this with a that in mind, but my impression is that shorter pipes are fine for the charge.  A fair amount of the charge is used in the units so the relative change per foot is small.  The base charge is 30 ounces.  The technical brochure calls for an additional charge per foot over 25 feet of 0.16 ounces per foot.  So at 9 feet, you are at 16 feet less than the minimum charge, or 2.56 ounces over.  That is a fairly small percentage.    You are only 7 feet under the minimum pipe length they sell (16ft).  I suspect that your are well within the normal operating range of the compressor.


Thanks for the technical information. I read through some of the specs and didn't quite understand why it would make a difference. the oz./ft. helps me understand it much better now. It would be hard to believe that the compressor is not sized or rated to handle less than 10% more charge given how designers tend to oversize components.

I'm not sure how some of the other brands work, but I really like the clever design of the remote control and how it has a thermostat in it so that wherever you place it, that is the location the mini-split is working to heat/cool. If you have the remote next to you across the shop, the unit will cycle until that part of the shop you are in with the remote reaches the target temp.

My eyes aren't what they used to be, but I can see the icons fine. My problem with them was interpreting them. The only one that made any sense to me was the cool mode, represented by a snowflake. The rest are somewhat open to interpretation. Once you read the manual, they sort of make more sense.


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## 7milesup

vtcnc said:


> My eyes aren't what they used to be, but I can see the icons fine. My problem with them was interpreting them. The only one that made any sense to me was the cool mode, represented by a snowflake. The rest are somewhat open to interpretation. Once you read the manual, they sort of make more sense.



Right?!  I was looking at my Friedrich remote the other day and trying to remember what the heck the symbols stood for.   It is like reading the laundry tag on a shirt.   According to those tags I need to stomp on my clothes, shred them and nuke them.  If that doesn't work then I believe the next step is to give them to the wife.  
It is Greek to me.


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## Tozguy

Bryan congrats on the mini split. My money says your installation will be fine. 
Generally speaking it is better to leave it running at stable temp setting so it keeps building and machines at constant temp.
Not sure how cold it gets in Vermont in the dead of winter but I would hang on to the pellet stove.


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## rabler

I haven't used "dry" mode (dehumidifier), but the instructions say in this mode to set the desired temperature on the remote.  That doesn't really sound like a humidity setting?


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## woodchucker

rabler said:


> I haven't used "dry" mode (dehumidifier), but the instructions say in this mode to set the desired temperature on the remote.  That doesn't really sound like a humidity setting?


probably as the humidity... so 60 would be 60 percent humidity.
out here in the east.. 50 is good in my basement. I was upto 95 yesterday. 
Had to put the air on and the dehumidifier on to keep things from rusting...  I really don't like it when paper feels like a wet noodle.


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## rabler

I


woodchucker said:


> probably as the humidity... so 60 would be 60 percent humidity.
> out here in the east.. 50 is good in my basement. I was upto 95 yesterday.
> Had to put the air on and the dehumidifier on to keep things from rusting...  I really don't like it when paper feels like a wet noodle.


I know the feeling, lived in Savannah, Ga for 15 years.  Hot wet noodle.  Yuck.


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## hman

vtcnc said:


> My eyes aren't what they used to be, but I can see the icons fine. My problem with them was interpreting them. The only one that made any sense to me was the cool mode, represented by a snowflake. The rest are somewhat open to interpretation. Once you read the manual, they sort of make more sense.





7milesup said:


> Right?!  I was looking at my Friedrich remote the other day and trying to remember what the heck the symbols stood for.   It is like reading the laundry tag on a shirt.   According to those tags I need to stomp on my clothes, shred them and nuke them.  If that doesn't work then I believe the next step is to give them to the wife.
> It is Greek to me.


One of my pet peeves!  Humankind spent millions of years developing LANGUAGE.  And now we're being forcibly retrograded all the way backwards to hieroglyphics!  Arf!!!!!


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## woodchucker

hman said:


> One of my pet peeves!  Humankind spent millions of years developing LANGUAGE.  And now we're being forcibly retrograded all the way backwards to hieroglyphics!  Arf!!!!!


well not millions of years. I think maybe 6000-15000 depending.

the icons are supposed to be universal to all languages. Same with car signs


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## hman

Yeah ... right!  Universally confusing, in entirely too many many instances.
<Note - I tried posting some screen shots here, but kept getting a "Parsing response failed" error??????>


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## vtcnc

hman said:


> Yeah ... right!  Universally confusing, in entirely too many many instances.
> <Note - I tried posting some screen shots here, but kept getting a "Parsing response failed" error??????>


Not sure what that error is. I've never seen that one. It sounds bad!  Maybe try again tomorrow.


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## hman

OK. I'll do that.


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## rabler

FWIW, after installing a few of these, most useful tip I can pass along:

These units come with a pre-cut pair of copper tubes bundled in an insulation sleeve that is sort of like a lamp zip cord insulation, and flared at the ends with compression fittings already installed.   Pioneer/Highseer/PDHVac.com sells those copper pipe sets in 16/25/33/50 foot lengths.  The interior units have two short copper pipe stubs, roughly 8-12 inches long, liquid and vapor, under the back side of the unit.  Those two copper pipes are NOT the same length, presumably the offset helps keep two large compression fittings staggered to avoid quite such a large spot at one place.  Before running the copper pipe set through the wall straighten it all out into one long piece, and work the right offset into the copper pipe set to match the offset of the interior unit.  Then go ahead and run it through the wall or along whatever path.   At the compressor end, you can coil, or cut the pipes at the exterior unit fairly easily as you'll have more working room around the exterior compressor.  Easier to do it this way the fight the offset after you've run the pipe through the wall.


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## vtcnc

rabler said:


> FWIW, after installing a few of these, most useful tip I can pass along:
> 
> These units come with a pre-cut pair of copper tubes bundled in an insulation sleeve that is sort of like a lamp zip cord insulation, and flared at the ends with compression fittings already installed. Pioneer/Highseer/PDHVac.com sells those copper pipe sets in 16/25/33/50 foot lengths. The interior units have two short copper pipe stubs, roughly 8-12 inches long, liquid and vapor, under the back side of the unit. Those two copper pipes are NOT the same length, presumably the offset helps keep two large compression fittings staggered to avoid quite such a large spot at one place. Before running the copper pipe set through the wall straighten it all out into one long piece, and work the right offset into the copper pipe set to match the offset of the interior unit. Then go ahead and run it through the wall or along whatever path. At the compressor end, you can coil, or cut the pipes at the exterior unit fairly easily as you'll have more working room around the exterior compressor. Easier to do it this way the fight the offset after you've run the pipe through the wall.



That is exactly how I did it. My set was 16’


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## rabler

vtcnc said:


> That is exactly how I did it. My set was 16’
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It took me a couple times to figure that out.  Royal pain to fight it after running the pipe.


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## vtcnc

I was running it on Saturday in dehumidification mode. Never turned on the AC and it dropped the temp from 71 to 65 and the humidity from 67 to 51 over the course of about 4 hours.


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