# lllooooose gib



## LEEQ (Mar 31, 2013)

The gib going into my knee against the column is making me scratch my head. There is a cardboard shim abt .018" thick alongside of the gib and when tightened down all the way there is still .005"-.010" slop side to side. I'm assuming that is not correct. I was wondering if there is a common easy method for eliminating the shim and making the gib fit snugly?


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## DMS (Mar 31, 2013)

I had a similar issue with the gib on the cross slide of my lathe. The consensus was to add a shim. Did that, and things are back up. I think I would use something other than cardboard though. Try some brass. I think the only other option is to cut/purchase a new gib strip.


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## 12bolts (Mar 31, 2013)

A cardboard shim wont achieve anything.
Do you have a tapered gib that is tightened by opposing screws on each end, or a plain gib that is adjusted by screws bearing against the side of it, (spaced along the length)?
A picture would work wonders, but a description (make/model) of your machine would be a good start.....

Cheers Phil


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## Richard King (Mar 31, 2013)

LEEQ,   To everyone, he and I have talked about this 3 machines made into one machine he has.  It is my opinion, the guy you bought it from is a  bad machine assembler and  should be embarrassed if he did it on purpose and knowingly assembled it with cardboard thinking it would work., if not he is an idiot. 

 Either way you should tell everyone who he is, so they are warned. There is no easy answer for you.  If I were you I would remove the head-stock, lift the knee off the column and then lay the column on it's back.  You need to check the fit of the 1965 column to the 1952 knee.  There are so many possibilities that need to be checked....  But if the knee fits close and all you need is a thicker gib, I would Turcite the gib and then fit it to the column.  The taper could be off, so buying a new gib won't help.  The best way to check the taper is when the column is laying on the back  and checked on both ends.  In the picture I am only showing the thick end.  You would move the indicator to the thin end and do the same thing.  Both ends need the to have the same dimention or gap.  As shown on the pictures.  The pictures are from a square way machine, but the principal is the same.     I will be driving threw your town on the way to my cabin in 2 or 3 weekends.  If you have it ready I can bring some Turcite with and use some Black Max Loc-Tite Glue and fit the gibe in a few hours.  The only issue would be if the top of the knee is square to the column...I can bring a blade square to check that too.  Buy a hotel room for me and I'll give you a hand in cobbling it together.  I can bring my Biax Scrapers and make the machine usable.  Rich


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## LEEQ (Mar 31, 2013)

12bolts said:


> A cardboard shim wont achieve anything.
> Do you have a tapered gib that is tightened by opposing screws on each end, or a plain gib that is adjusted by screws bearing against the side of it, (spaced along the length)?
> A picture would work wonders, but a description (make/model) of your machine would be a good start.....
> 
> Cheers Phil



A cardboard shim, while not my idea or choice does indeed do a lot. It isn't enough thickness though. As to make and model, it's a bridgeport and has standard issue looking bport gibs. They are tapered with a notch in one end that a screw rides in and pulls the gib in and out. Guess it's just worn out.


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## 12bolts (Apr 1, 2013)

A cardboard shim will not be acceptable to use in a  milling machine. Happy now? The material will not be of uniform thickness, or hardness. Its consistency will be of such that areas will swell due to oil and or moisture absorbtion. It will deform in areas where loading is applied.
After reading Richards' post, almost anything could be the problem..........

Cheers Phil


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## LEEQ (Apr 1, 2013)

The rules state we can't argue,  I am sorry it seems we both misunderstood each other  <Shake>
That cardboard didn't take up space would be inaccurate. Had it been thicker I would have got it back together without noticing. I said it wasn't my descision or choice. It's something I found in there. Do I plan to use cardboard to rebuild a mill? Probably not. Anyway, I found the saddle gib to be in similar shape minus the cardbaord shimming. It appears to be fly cut on one side. I haven't double checked the knee gib, but I suspect someone might have been prepping for turcite. If that winds up being the case maybe I can have wear strips already set on the gibs when Richard swings through. I will know more later today. I guess I'll throw the old iron on its back and do some measuring.


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## LEEQ (Apr 1, 2013)

Well nothing figured just yet, but she's over on her back. I suspect it's time to study what to do now that she's waiting patiently for me. Pity taking all that back apart again. Lessons not soon forgotten.


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## Richard King (Apr 1, 2013)

Put a  4 x 4's under the bottom and a 6 x 6 and 4 x 4 (toe nailed together)...on top end and then nail wedges on the sides to keep it from rocking.  Use a carpenters level and get it close.  Then clean the column ways up, stone them and take a few pictures.  I would check them with a straightedge and my King-Way Aligner to see how parallel the dovetails are.  But to just check the column with no scraping tools  now, set the knee back on the column while it is on its back and use a .0015" feeler gage and check under all the surfaces.   I would check the bottom of the dovetail on the knee has clearance where it fits into the column dovetail..  Then with 2 feeler gage sets slide the gib so it's even at the top of the knee as if the gib screw is in.  Then slide a feeler gage in into each end until they are tight.  That would tell you what size Turcite I will have to bring...or Heck I could cut you a piece and you could glue it in your self.  Have to be sure the oil hole is drilled in the gib and oil groove is cut into it too.

Like I said we can cobble it back together or rebuild it.  This method will get it back together to run. Make it better then it is now.
Rebuilding would take 40 to 50 hours or $2500.00, plus grinding the table $500,00 and rebuilding the head. 
You have to decide what you want to do.


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## LEEQ (Apr 9, 2013)

I'm hoping we can get this one back together and working well. I may very well keep my eye open through the years for a machine with matching numbers in good enough shape to not need any (or very little) grinding to make it tight and beautiful. Or maybe a steal on a worn machine with matching numbers. So the machine work wouldn't make the finished piece so pricey. I look forward to learning scraping and would love to get to say I did that.  Now as to spec's, I did some poking and gauging. Knee to column gib takes abt .023" feeler at both ends. Saddle to knee gib takes abt .012" feeler. As to the table to saddle gib I do not know yet. There is a table making it's way to me. 10" bigger than what I have. Once I got deep into these ways and gibs I could have lived without the 42" table. The purchase is made now though. Choices. I didn't get hurt on the table, I could recoup my money. I hope that it will work well piecing this mill together. If so I have the option selling my 32" table. We'll see. Hope it gets here soon so I can fit the gib and all. In the meantime I'm about to the point of fitting up the 32" table. I have shimmed the first two gibs with brass stock as it was what I could lay my hands on. I'm real curious to see how true things are after stoning the uglies. I can almost taste the functional mill. All the hours cleaning and working on this machine without using it are almost enough to drive a fellow nuts.


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## LEEQ (Apr 10, 2013)

What is the gold stripe on the table to saddle gib? Is that normal?


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## Richard King (Apr 11, 2013)

*Re: lllooooose gib - Update on Wear Strip on Gibs*

That's braze,  some made an extension and they braze welded it on. If I could get a close look at the area, I could be sure, or it was a broken gib and welded back together.  On many machines one can use platic color shim (MSC has assorted sixes and colors in a pack) on the backs of gibs .  BP one needs to put a metal shim on the back and not plastic because the locks press against the back and in the past I have tried that and the shim gets smashed.  That's why I put Rulon 142 (turcite) on the front of the gibs.  If you use plastic shim on other gibs, bead plast of sand one side that is shinny.(on my first post I was tired when I wrote it, so I screwed up the info, after reading it again, I fixed and added more info)

I recommend you buy the glue recommended by the manufacture.  Rulon has a  1/2 pint, pint, quart kit and it has .003" glass beads in it to get a good line of glue.  90% of all machine tools produced for Industrial use now have Rulon 142 or Turcite on the wear side of ways.  Both conventional and CNC.  The Rulon and Turcite material has one side that is acid etched so the glue will penetrate so it will not sheer off.  You also need to roughen the gib surface by glass bead (sand) blasting it.  Or scratching the heck out of the metal. Use acid-tone or brake cleaner to de-grease everything.  The glue is 2 part Epoxy. 

I have also had great luck with Loc-Tite Black Max Super Glue.  A Gunsmith introduced it to me and I called Tri-Star the company I purchase the material from says it is a good product in a pinch.  But it sets up in 5 min and no beads. I also have had very good using Grade Linen Phenolic on the wear side or the gib, but it isn't self lubricating as Rulon is.  You can buy a new gib, but it may not be the same taper.  The gib that was welded should probably be replaced as from the one picture it looks like it was ground and butchured up on the one end.  If the taper is off, You can grind or mill it.  I can write about that another time.  I have the taper the same on the gib before I glue on the gib, so you do not cut the wear strip thin on one side. (more on that later, I'm getting writers cramp)

It's real difficult to help you over the Internet as there are so many issues on that machine  I have no clue if the column flats and dovetail ways are accurate?  Is that gib straight or is its taper correct?   I have no idea if the back of the knee is accurate, etc
But to make it better then it is now I would glue on some Phenolic, Rulon or Turcite on the front or wear side of the gib so you can run the machine.  The gap you said is .023"  That would be a perfect spot for some  020" Phenolic and a layer of epoxy would be .003".  Easy for me to say, but putting it into action is hard for a beginner.   Do you have a flat surface like a Granite plate?  I can bring a 12" x 18" plate, but the more I think about the machine and it's issues, I think I may have to charge you if it takes more then a few hours as we first discussed.


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## jgedde (Apr 11, 2013)

Richard King said:


> That's braze, some made an extension and they braze welded it on. If I could get a close look at the area, I could be sure, or it was a broken gib and welded back together. On a BP one needs to put a wear-strip on a the back because the locks press against the back and in the past I have tried that and the shim gets smashed. It's real difficult to help you over the Internet as there are so many issues on that machine I have no clue if the column flats and dovetail ways are accurate? Is that gib straight or is its taper correct? I have no idea if the back of the knee is accurate, etc
> But to make it better then it is now I would glue on some Phenolic, Rulon or Turcite on the front or wear side of the gib so you can run the machine. The gap you said is .023" That would be a perfect spot for some 020" Phenolic and a layer of epoxy would be .003". Easy for me to say, but putting it into action is hard for a beginner. Do you have a flat surface like a Granite plate?



Richard,  I just learned some new techniques from your last post...  What kind of glue do you use to allow Turcite or Rulon to stick to the gib without being sheared off?  I presume you're saying these go on the wear side of the gib.

BTW, I'm very curious as to what vendor is building machines so poorly.

Thanks,
John


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## LEEQ (Apr 11, 2013)

jgedde said:


> Richard,  I just learned some new techniques from your last post...  What kind of glue do you use to allow Turcite or Rulon to stick to the gib without being sheared off?  I presume you're saying these go on the wear side of the gib.
> 
> BTW, I'm very curious as to what vendor is building machines so poorly.
> 
> ...



As to the vendor. I bought a machine with the understanding that it was a 74 step pulley that he hadn't powered up or gotten into. The head was supposed to need a $200 parts and labor repair, but no promises. It was also the understanding that the ways were in good shape. The column is from the no door Textron era. The knee, saddle, and probably table are from 1952 as per hardinges records. The turret and ram are unknown year. The head is from 65. In short, the machine is parts thrown together. I have replaced $500 in parts, mostly missing. None of the little pretty or quill handwheel. Just bare bones gotta have it to work stuff. I feel the ways and gibs are in a shape not agreed upon. I can't tighten down gibs enough for them to take effect except for the repaired table gib which I believe to be at improper angles. You can't get it in flush under the wiper, but there is still play at the other end. I realized that it was going to be a project. If the ways were in good shape as promised, I could ignore my labor and get over the $500 in parts. I could get over getting a head missing so many parts and having to educate myself how to repair/assemble something that wasn't whole when I took it apart. I could pretty up the ways and be happy. I feel that this is not the case. I AM NEW. I could be looking at this all wrong! Before I tell the world what I think of this all and put someone's name out there, I'm going to have it assessed by someone who knows what they are doing. I am trying to give someone a fair shake though I feel they *******tted the new  guy and sold him lies. I am not old by any means and have made an ass of myself on several occasions. I will never forget them. I hope to not make to many more of those. So until I know more, I don't feel it best to say more. What I have said here, I can prove to be true. I can't prove what I was promised, but I can prove what I got. I can also promise you I won't behave like that. My mother would be ashamed.


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## LEEQ (Apr 11, 2013)

Richard King said:


> That's braze,  some made an extension and they braze welded it on. If I could get a close look at the area, I could be sure, or it was a broken gib and welded back together.  On a BP one needs to put a wear-strip on a the back because the locks press against the back and in the past I have tried that and the shim gets smashed.  It's real difficult to help you over the Internet as there are so many issues on that machine  I have no clue if the column flats and dovetail ways are accurate?  Is that gib straight or is its taper correct?   I have no idea if the back of the knee is accurate, etc
> But to make it better then it is now I would glue on some Phenolic, Rulon or Turcite on the front or wear side of the gib so you can run the machine.  The gap you said is .023"  That would be a perfect spot for some  020" Phenolic and a layer of epoxy would be .003".  Easy for me to say, but putting it into action is hard for a beginner.   Do you have a flat surface like a Granite plate?



I don't have granite yet. I also think that table gib will need ground down to apply the wear strip. It is very tight at the big end, but loose at the little end. I could also buy a new gib. At the cost of a new part that I think could then be fit without too much trouble, I don't think I could have that ground by someone else, glue on wear strip, and fit. Just spit balling. The saddle gib was .012 under, the knee was .023 under.


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## LEEQ (Apr 12, 2013)

I will be happy to put you in a room if necessary, and also happy to pay for your expertise even if it's a few hours. I think a new gib for the table is in order. Starting with unbutchered has got to be easier. Fingers crossed, it might even have a better taper fit. One can hope. Thanks


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## Richard King (Apr 12, 2013)

LEEQ said:


> I will be happy to put you in a room if necessary, and also happy to pay for your expertise even if it's a few hours. I think a new gib for the table is in order. Starting with unbutchered has got to be easier. Fingers crossed, it might even have a better taper fit. One can hope. Thanks




Some gibs that you order do not have the gib screw notch pre-cut in them and you will have to mill it in, so don't throw away the old gib.  As you can put them back to back so you can hold them in a vise.  Some will have the notch milled in them and  have to be milled or ground thinner to fit.  Be sure to tell who you order it from the thickness you need.  So measure the big end of the gib and add the feeler gage thickness plus .010.  It will probably be .100" thicker, but with your luck it will be thinner.....lol  
I use High Quality Parts, but there are a few others too on the net that sell BP parts.


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