# Millermatic 252 for FCAW



## erikmannie (May 1, 2021)

Out of nowhere one of my coworkers asked to buy one of my eBikes, & it is just enough money to buy a Millermatic 252 that I will use for FCAW.

I have had a Millermatic 252 for about 3 years that is set up for MIG. I have always used .035” wire & C25 shielding gas. It is a nice machine to weld with.

I could switch out the rollers & wire to run .035” flux core on the Millermatic 252 that I have now, but I like to have my machines ready to plug in and go.

I have only run about 6” of flux core bead in my entire life & I have always wanted to get into it. I don’t know if I will use .035” or .045”, but I am leaning toward .045” because that is a really common size.

Anybody here ever do any FCAW?

Miller ships these machines set up for .035” wire diameter with rollers for MIG wire. I will have to buy FCAW rollers & put those in. If I want to run .045”, I am pretty sure that I will need to put in the correct sized liner for that.


----------



## matthewsx (May 1, 2021)

Is it really that much work to switch it from one to the other? Seems like the money would be better spent on another tool or paying down the lathe. 

Sorry, I know this adds nothing to your question, just seems like having two of the same machine in a hobby shop would be kinda redundant. I can see it if you needed both processes one after the other but the way you describe it you would just have both handy in case you wanted to do one or the other.

john


----------



## DavidR8 (May 1, 2021)

I'm with John, I wouldn't spend the money on a machine that is identical to one I already own. 
Perhaps if I had a production shop where machines dedicated to a specific process would save time/make money then I'd do it. 
Seems like the money is better used elsewhere.


----------



## erikmannie (May 1, 2021)

I will buy some .035” flux core rollers and wire to find out how much time and trouble it is to make the switch. 

I will also find out if one needs a different sized liner for differently sized wires.

The one time that I did run a flux core bead was when I was taking a MIG class. The instructor was kind enough to bring a roll of flux core from his house. He put the wire in for us so that we could try FCAW. I do not recall him switching out the rollers, 

As I understand it, it is a terrible idea to feed the flux core wire using the rollers for the solid core wire.

I am more concerned about space in the shop than money. One of the bikes being taken away opens up a little room, and you know how people have a way of filling the space that they have.


----------



## FOMOGO (May 1, 2021)

Reverse polarity for flux-core. Have to agree with the others on need for two of the same machine for a seldom used process. Mike


----------



## Aaron_W (May 1, 2021)

I took my MIG class in 2019, when PG&E was doing all the safety shut downs so we missed several class sessions. FCAW was on the syllabus, but ended up a casualty of the lost sessions. Like you learning something new is of almost as much interest as the ability to make stuff, so I asked the instructor about FCAW. His opinion was that there wasn't much use to it outside of those specific uses where it is needed, basically some industrial use and some very specific home uses where gas is impractical.

I agree with the others that I'd start with getting the rollers for your machine to use the .035 and .045 FCAW wire, and play with it before investing in another machine. If you do decide you want to leave one set up, I'd consider something like the little Titanium FCAW welder from Harbor Freight. Not so much to be cheap ($199), but it only weighs 15lbs, and can be used from a shoulder strap so would actually provide some new utility for you, in being a very portable welder.

Titanium EZ Flux

The 252 is a great welder, that is what I used in my MIG class, I just don't see you using FCAW enough to justify the cost and space of a second $3000 machine.


----------



## erikmannie (May 1, 2021)

I see in the PDF (linked below) that liners are usually good for two wire sizes (e.g., .035” and .045”). I have a Millermatic 252, but I do not know which sized liner it came with. 



			https://www.millerwelds.com/-/media/inriver/dc1249-millermatic-252--english.pdf
		


I knew the model number of the gun that came with the machine, but I have since forgotten this.


----------



## erikmannie (May 1, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> Reverse polarity for flux-core. Have to agree with the others on need for two of the same machine for a seldom used process. Mike



I need to review polarities for GMAW and FCAW. As I recall, my Millermatic 252 came set to DCEP; this is because most buyers use these machines for GMAW.


----------



## erikmannie (May 1, 2021)

Here are the .035” (knurled) rollers for the flux core wire. 





__





						Miller Drive Roll Kit - .035 VK Groove 2 Roll 079606
					






					store.cyberweld.com
				




I am just learning now that there is an “inlet wire guide”. I will have to find out if the “.035” FCAW inlet wire guide” is the same as the “.035” GMAW inlet wire guide”.


----------



## erikmannie (May 1, 2021)

At some level of weld nerdiness, the nerd has a machine dedicated for a certain welding process. 

Speaking of nerds, when I was working as a clerk for UPS, we had a gentleman who would come in just about every week to pick up a new (Marvel/Star Wars) display model. He was about 40 years old. The boxes were about as big as a bread basket.

Every time, he was practically floating in the door with joy and anticipation. When he got closer, he was always beaming. When I would hand him the box, he lit up even more. That is when he would excitedly announce which figure was in the box. I wish I could have filmed him clutching that box, hurrying out the door to probably tear into the box as soon as he got to his car.

I believe that, as he worked his job, he was thinking “This week is Darth Maul!” or the like. His customers probably thought that he loved his job.

Anyway, I think a lot of us here do the same thing. I know I do. I wonder if this is a pleasant distraction or a mistake.


----------



## matthewsx (May 1, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> I took my MIG class in 2019, when PG&E was doing all the safety shut downs so we missed several class sessions. FCAW was on the syllabus, but ended up a casualty of the lost sessions. Like you learning something new is of almost as much interest as the ability to make stuff, so I asked the instructor about FCAW. His opinion was that there wasn't much use to it outside of those specific uses where it is needed, basically some industrial use and some very specific home uses where gas is impractical.
> 
> I agree with the others that I'd start with getting the rollers for your machine to use the .035 and .045 FCAW wire, and play with it before investing in another machine. If you do decide you want to leave one set up, I'd consider something like the little Titanium FCAW welder from Harbor Freight. Not so much to be cheap ($199), but it only weighs 15lbs, and can be used from a shoulder strap so would actually provide some new utility for you, in being a very portable welder.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I was thinking, I don't have space in my shop for a big dedicated welder and I've been looking at that little Titanium unit for a while now. Many years ago I used to carry a small HF flux core welder in my race trailer, that thing saved our race weekend many times and I finally ended up wearing it out. It never made great welds but when we needed it we sure were glad that it was there, I understand the inverter welders are much better too.

John


----------



## erikmannie (May 1, 2021)

I was going to post this on the forum sooner or later, so I will do it now.

We have a 6 month old standard poodle, Daisy, who just loves to play fetch. For about 15-30 minutes a day, I play with her. Her attitude, particularly bringing the ball back, is absolutely perfect: living in the moment, excited and executing the task. 

She is obviously much smarter than me, beating myself up about my past shortcomings and fearful of the future. One of the main reasons that I play fetch with her daily is to remind my dumb self that attitude is everything.


----------



## Aaron_W (May 1, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking, I don't have space in my shop for a big dedicated welder and I've been looking at that little Titanium unit for a while now. Many years ago I used to carry a small HF flux core welder in my race trailer, that thing saved our race weekend many times and I finally ended up wearing it out. It never made great welds but when we needed it we sure were glad that it was there, I understand the inverter welders are much better too.
> 
> John



It wasn't cheap, but I bought it following the buy once cry once program. Love my Miller 220 ACDC, does MIG, TIG (AC & DC) and stick so I figure unless I buy a tank to rebuild, it should do anything I will want to do. About 60lbs and fits into a 2x3 foot space.

If I buy a tank I want one of these.    I think I will have to satisfy myself with scale models though as I don't have the space for a fire engine and a tank in the driveway, and I'm not getting rid of the fire engine.


----------



## Aaron_W (May 1, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> At some level of weld nerdiness, the nerd has a machine dedicated for a certain welding process.
> 
> Speaking of nerds, when I was working as a clerk for UPS, we had a gentleman who would come in just about every week to pick up a new (Marvel/Star Wars) display model. He was about 40 years old. The boxes were about as big as a bread basket.
> 
> ...



I think there is more of that here than some would admit. Replace "Darth Maul" with 5C Spindexer or other "tool of the week".   

My Miller 220 came with a couple of rollers so I can run .024" to .035". I think the 252 comes set up for .035" standard but I'm surprised it doesn't come with larger and smaller as well.


----------



## DavidR8 (May 1, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> I think there is more of that here than some would admit. Replace "Darth Maul" with 5C Spindexer or other "tool of the week".



Not me, nope, no way


----------



## Aukai (May 1, 2021)

The standard poodle is/was number 1 on the list of breeds for intelligence, and problem solving, their minds need/like to be stimulated. Try hiding things, and other mental exercises, as well as physical exercise.


----------



## projectnut (May 1, 2021)

I'm not much of a welder so I can't give advice as to how many or what style welders should be in a hobby shop.  On the other hand a friend of mine has a fabrication shop and currently has 12 welders.  Some are set up for aluminum, others are wire feed for mild steel, some are single phase, others are 3 phase, and some are engine driven portables for work in the field.  To me it seems like more than is necessary, but he seems to use them all on a regular basis.

These are the ones he kept when downsizing his shop.  He sold 6 others when he moved to the smaller shop.  With the way business has been the last few months he's almost disappointed he let go of the larger building.  He was in a partnership for years in the larger building.  His old partner decided it was time to retire so they agreed on how the assets were split.    At the time he couldn't justify the cost of keeping the larger place, but with the current work load it would be just the right size.


----------



## f350ca (May 1, 2021)

Didn't realize there were special feed rollers for flux core. Ran quite a bit of .035 and .045 with the standard ones.

Greg


----------



## brino (May 1, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> At some level of weld nerdiness, the nerd has a machine dedicated for a certain welding process.



I heard it about Norm Abram (of This Old House and The New Yankee Workshop) that he doesn't change router bits, he changes routers.

Perhaps a nerd in plaid flannel, but he sure knows his stuff.

-brino


----------



## matthewsx (May 1, 2021)

brino said:


> I heard it about Norm Abram (of This Old House and The New Yankee Workshop) that he doesn't change router bits, he changes routers.
> 
> Perhaps a nerd in plaid flannel, but he sure knows his stuff.
> 
> -brino


I’m like that with my HF angle grinders, one each for flap disk, cutoff wheel, and grinding wheel.

But, I imagine Norm Abrams has a few sponsors that make it easy to switch out tools frequently.


----------



## erikmannie (May 1, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> I’m like that with my HF angle grinders, one each for flap disk, cutoff wheel, and grinding wheel.
> 
> But, I imagine Norm Abrams has a few sponsors that make it easy to switch out tools frequently.



I have 4 cheap Black & Decker angle grinders: stone, flap disc, cutoff wheel & wire brush.


----------



## erikmannie (May 2, 2021)

I told my Dad today that I am considering buying another Millermatic 252 to use as a dedicated FCAW machine. He agreed with most of you & said that this plan is not cost effective. 

This is probably the first time in my life that I am planning on not following my wise Dad’s advice. If the eBike sale goes through, I am going to be (imprudent? reckless? wasteful?) and buy another Millermatic 252. Everything is great with my GMAW machine, & I don’t want to switch things around on it, easy as that may be.

This will allow me to move forward with .045” which is what I had in mind from the beginning.

Also, I get a charge from buying machines; it is a distraction from the challenges of the real world. Work is so busy due to Amazon + COVID, so I am going to make hay while the sun shines, fully aware that I am probably doing things the wrong way.

A lot of people are talking about the likelihood of much higher inflation rates a few years down the road due to federal debt & quantitative easing. Maybe it is a good time to secure durable goods while the prices are reasonable?


----------



## General Zod (May 2, 2021)

Perhaps I didn't' see it, but are you talking about FCAW-S or FCAW-G?


----------



## erikmannie (May 2, 2021)

General Zod said:


> Perhaps I didn't' see it, but are you talking about FCAW-S or FCAW-G?



Thank you for clarifying. I plan on dual shield. I plan to use C25, but that may change; I hope it doesn’t change because I want my C25 cylinders to be able to be used for either GMAW or FCAW.

My first welding machine that I ever bought (circa 2001) was such a huge disappointment. I got it from Harbor Freight. It was something like $99 or $129, and it was inner shield (i.e. no shielding gas). My experience with that Chinese machine was a fiasco from start to finish. Never again, although maybe it was operator error. I was doing a lot of partying back then (hopefully not while I was welding!).


----------



## General Zod (May 2, 2021)

I see.   In one of the other posts it was mentioned to reverse the polarity for flux-core, but that is not the case with gas shielded flux core.   Gasless flux core uses DCEN and gas shielded flux core uses DCEP just like solid wire GMAW.  Just wanted to mention that.  

Also keep in mind that just because you will be using 'dual shield' doesn't automatically mean you will get the deep-penetrating profile that it is known for.  You have to run enough amps & volts to transition the transfer into spray transfer, where the tip of the wire starts to "needle point" on you, and droplets start to stream from end of the wire in order to reap those benefits.


----------



## erikmannie (May 2, 2021)

General Zod said:


> I see.   In one of the other posts it was mentioned to reverse the polarity for flux-core, but that is not the case with gas shielded flux core.   Gasless flux core uses DCEN and gas shielded flux core uses DCEP just like solid wire GMAW.  Just wanted to mention that.
> 
> Also keep in mind that just because you will be using 'dual shield' doesn't automatically mean you will get the deep-penetrating profile that it is known for.  You have to run enough amps & volts to transition the transfer into spray transfer, where the tip of the wire starts to "needle point" on you, and droplets start to stream from end of the wire in order to reap those benefits.



I am glad that you clarified that both GMAW and dual shield flux core (i.e. FCAW-G) are both run on DCEP.

Your information about spray transfer is exactly why I want to immerse myself in this. Dual shield is one of only five welding processes in which I am interested (the others being GTAW, SMAW, GMAW and OFW), so I believe will have plenty of time to get good at it.

I believe that I have always done short circuit MIG, so the spray transfer will be a new experience for me.

At present, I am a welding nerd that welds for the sake of welding. I am more than happy just welding on coupons. I will fabricate something when I need to, but I prefer coupons because you get more arc time that way. If you spend a crazy amount of time welding coupons, things work out pretty nicely when you lay a bead on a “real” workpiece.


----------



## Firstram (May 3, 2021)

As small as your shop is, a 2nd 252 would be a waste of space and resources. I switch my 251 from .035 ER70s-6 to .045 71M as needed in less than 10 minutes. It's a spool of wire, feed cone, 2 rollers and a contact tip! The only time we make the swap is when we are working with 3/4" and thicker, which isn't that often.

If you must buy another machine take a hard look at a Miller 215 or 211, they are awesome. They are small, light, smooth, dual voltage, portable and will weld up to 3/8" plate. The duty cycle isn't as high, but the 3 we have and use every day have never let us down!


----------



## G-ManBart (May 3, 2021)

One good thing is that if later on you decided that having two 252s is overkill, or want something else, they are very, very easy to sell and you won't lose much money.  I had a 252 and would have kept it but I got a killer deal on a 350P so I sold it and the new owner was thrilled to get it!


----------



## JRaut (May 3, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> I told my Dad today that I am considering buying another Millermatic 252 to use as a dedicated FCAW machine. He agreed with most of you & said that this plan is not cost effective.
> 
> This is probably the first time in my life that I am planning on not following my wise Dad’s advice. If the eBike sale goes through, I am going to be (imprudent? reckless? wasteful?) and buy another Millermatic 252. Everything is great with my GMAW machine, & I don’t want to switch things around on it, easy as that may be.


Am I remembering correctly that your dad bought up the loan on your lathe to help you out a bit?

If that's the case, might be worth sticking your tail between your legs and heeding his advice on this one...


----------



## G-ManBart (May 3, 2021)

Firstram said:


> If you must buy another machine take a hard look at a Miller 215 or 211, they are awesome. They are small, light, smooth, dual voltage, portable and will weld up to 3/8" plate. The duty cycle isn't as high, but the 3 we have and use every day have never let us down!


I don't know the OP, or his shop setup, so I can't comment on that, but as much as I like the MM211 (I had one) I'm not sure it would make the most sense.  By the time you put a 211 on a cart with a tank it's not all that much smaller footprint than a 252....it's smaller, no doubt, but I'm not sure it's enough of a difference to bother.  At least with the 215 he'd be able to do DC TIG if he wanted to add that capability....save a bit of space, have dual-voltage capability and the ability to add DC TIG might add up to be worthwhile.


----------



## erikmannie (May 3, 2021)

I am going to get a Millermatic 255 (I prefer 220V machines) & use *that* for my MIG because the Millermatic 255 can do GMAW-P (which I have never even tried).

I am pretty desperate for room in my shop, so I can store my MIG stuff on the cart under the (smallish inverter) Millermatic 255, which will live on the top shelf of the cart.

So my existing Millermatic 252 will be dedicated to FCAW, so this thread is still holding true to it’s title.

The big caveat is that if the eBike sale falls through, this whole plan is DOA.


----------



## Aaron_W (May 3, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> I am going to get a Millermatic 255 (I prefer 220V machines) & use *that* for my MIG because the Millermatic 255 can do GMAW-P (which I have never even tried).
> 
> I am pretty desperate for room in my shop, so I can store my MIG stuff on the cart under the (smallish inverter) Millermatic 255, which will live on the top shelf of the cart.
> 
> ...



That will provide you some more capability than just a duplicate machine. 

Your welding is kind of different than most since you are doing a lot of it as "training" rather than simply capacity to make something. Looked at in that way I can see where you are coming from, even if it wouldn't be my choice. I'm a guy with 5 lathes with a swing of 9" or less so no room to judge.


----------



## erikmannie (May 3, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> That will provide you some more capability than just a duplicate machine.
> 
> Your welding is kind of different than most since you are doing a lot of it as "training" rather than simply capacity to make something. Looked at in that way I can see where you are coming from, even if it wouldn't be my choice. I'm a guy with 5 lathes with a swing of 9" or less so no room to judge.



5 lathes. I like this guy!

We don’t need to provide an excuse for excessive spending if it is our own money that we are spending.

I do this just for fun, and working with an arc or cutting metal is almost always fun.


----------



## G-ManBart (May 4, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> I'm a guy with 5 lathes with a swing of 9" or less so no room to judge.



They need to create a "We're not worthy" emoji for this post!


----------



## mikey (May 4, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> We don’t need to provide an excuse for excessive spending if it is our own money that we are spending.



This is true. 

We tend to judge the actions of others by what we think our own standards are, conveniently forgetting those times when we did what we wanted to do because we wanted to do it, even against our better judgement. All of us have done this or if not, will do it. It is your money, Erik, and we have nothing to say about what you do with it ... except that we still have the solemn responsibility to help you spend money on things you don't yet have!   

For example, can I interest you in a 0-1" Mitutoyo Quantumike? First time I've seen this top tier mic drop below $200.00 on Amazon. It will read to half a tenth, which suggests that you can somehow cut to that tolerance level. It has a large digital read out that will serve you well as you get older because your arms are only so long, right? Plus, it is smooth as silk in use, which will help when you're an old guy with arthritic fingers. But wait, there's more! Just imagine the pleasure you will have when you tell your friends to not even talk to you unless their drawing of the thing they want you to make for free is dimensioned in 50 millionths of an inch ... they will no longer bother mooching off you. See? I'm your friend and I want to help you ...


----------



## xr650rRider (May 4, 2021)

One thing with FCAW, hope you have a fume extractor.  If you have a small shop, you'll be choking on the smoke pretty quick.

If you want penetration, get a bottle of 90/10 mix and my 251 will go into spray transfer mode around 29 volts and 450 to 500 on wire speed with 0.035" wire.  Only for flat but will look like your pouring mercury on the weld.  Full 1/2" penetration.  You'll quickly set your gloves on fire unless you wear a shield over it.


----------



## erikmannie (May 4, 2021)

xr650rRider said:


> If you want penetration, get a bottle of 90/10 mix and my 251 will go into spray transfer mode around 29 volts and 450 to 500 on wire speed with 0.035" wire.  Only for flat but will look like your pouring mercury on the weld.  Full 1/2" penetration.  You'll quickly set your gloves on fire unless you wear a shield over it.



Are you referring to dual shield flux core with these values?


----------



## erikmannie (May 4, 2021)

@xr650rRider 

I do not have a fume extractor. I also don’t have money or space for a fume extractor, so this is a problem.


----------



## xr650rRider (May 4, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> Are you referring to dual shield flux core with these values?


No, regular mig wire.  You need the higher argon concentration in the 90/10 mix to go into true spray mode.  When the arc gets quiet and looks like your pouring liquid out of gun, your in spray transfer mode.


----------



## xr650rRider (May 4, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> @xr650rRider
> 
> I do not have a fume extractor. I also don’t have money or space for a fume extractor, so this is a problem.


Some of us call them a fan and an open window.

The usefulness of FCAW was welding outside with a mig, or dirty metal.  I'd much rather not have to clean up slag.


----------



## Aaron_W (May 4, 2021)

G-ManBart said:


> They need to create a "We're not worthy" emoji for this post!



They are all small, I can carry 3 of them without help. It took me a couple years to decide on a lathe, now I think I'm trying to ensure myself that bought the right one.    I may be a little touched in the head, but it keeps me out of trouble so my wife just goes along with it.



xr650rRider said:


> One thing with FCAW, hope you have a fume extractor.  If you have a small shop, you'll be choking on the smoke pretty quick.
> 
> If you want penetration, get a bottle of 90/10 mix and my 251 will go into spray transfer mode around 29 volts and 450 to 500 on wire speed with 0.035" wire.  Only for flat but will look like your pouring mercury on the weld.  Full 1/2" penetration.  You'll quickly set your gloves on fire unless you wear a shield over it.



Smoke and fumes worse than SMAW?


----------



## xr650rRider (May 4, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> Smoke and fumes worse than SMAW?


It's all relative.  What size rod you running.  Flux core wire or flux coated rods, generate an oxygen shield that appears as smoke.  Wire's smaller diameter but your feeding as same rate as a rod, if you have the same sized bead.  But yes, it smokes a lot, would make you want to invent a weld process that didn't do that in an enclosed shop......................like GMAW or GTAW.


----------



## General Zod (May 4, 2021)

The smoke isn't as bad as SMAW or FCAW-S, but it comes in a close 2nd place.   For 045 'dual shield' to go into spray , you need to be running minimum 200A IIRC.  Sweet spot is around 250A.


----------



## General Zod (May 4, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> the Millermatic 255 can do GMAW-P (which I have never even tried).



Please have a look at this:  https://forum.millerwelds.com/forum/welding-discussions/612648-how-to-setup-pulse-on-mm255

Miller has published a video showing proper pulse operation, but some people are still having problems, as you can see from that thread on the Miller forum.  Hopefully they ironed out any issues.


----------



## erikmannie (May 4, 2021)

General Zod said:


> Please have a look at this:  https://forum.millerwelds.com/forum/welding-discussions/612648-how-to-setup-pulse-on-mm255
> 
> Miller has published a video showing proper pulse operation, but some people are still having problems, as you can see from that thread on the Miller forum.  Hopefully they ironed out any issues.



That link cast some very serious shade on the Millermatic 255, especially if somebody wants to use it for pulse.

One wonders if this machine is able to execute all the tasks for which it is advertised.


----------



## General Zod (May 4, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> That link cast some very serious shade on the Millermatic 255, especially if somebody wants to use it for pulse.
> 
> One wonders if this machine is able to execute all the tasks for which it is advertised.



The Miller video does show evidence, _but _that post, along with the Baker's Gas video does cast shade.  I've owned Miller and have given them my hard-earned money when I bought a brand new Millermatic 211 back in 2016, so I'm not hating on them as they obviously make awesome gear.  But I've yet to see anyone _other than Miller_ show proper pulse-MIG operation.  I'm 99% sure the Miller people have it setup correctly, so really what I'm wondering is where are all the 255 users showing pulse MIG?  All the online users I've seen seem to only be using short circuit.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want it to fail either; pulse-MIG is a wonderful thing to have and be able to use, from _any _MIG welder. Guess I just expected to see more if coming from that machine. If you do buy it, please do try to obtain 90/10 Ar/CO₂ to show how it does on the Auto-Set settings for pulse.


----------

