# Useless tooling? Wasted money?



## Investigator (Jul 31, 2017)

Just curious about others experiences.  I'm in the process of ordering tooling for my new (to me) benchtop mill.  Looking through all the catalogs and vendors on line, seeing lots of stuff that makes me think "I might need that".  

My question though is this;  When you first got your machine(s), what did you spend money on, such as tooling, that you have not used and now realize you didn't need and or wasted your money on?

Kind of the opposite question from "what should I buy", I'm asking you to tell me from your experience "what should I _not_ buy"?


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 31, 2017)

I've been limited by my (lack of) income, haven't bought any rotary tables, super spacers, etc..  Wished I had some occasionally, but.....Also, I bought a cheap mill vice, $78, not $4 to 600, its' been quite adequate. I live with its limitations. I built my own power table and head feed, rather than  purchasing them, too.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 31, 2017)

It depends a lot on which mill you have and what you plan to make with it.  A lot of money can be wasted on tooling that is too stout for the machine to reasonably drive.  More money can be wasted on tooling that looks and sounds cool but will be used rarely or never.  Specialty items like tramming aids can easily be done without by knowing how to use an indicator so it is easy to read and lightly skims the table, an indicator and the proper type of spindle mount for it will actually do the job better, and will be useful for lots of other work as well.  "I might need that someday" and "that just looks or sounds too cool" mean you should probably wait a while and see if there is a real need for it...  Start with collets, cutters, something to bore with, a drill chuck, a decent vise, and a hold down set.  Add a test indicator, a dial indicator, and a quality stand and spindle mount, and common measuring tools.  See where that takes you, and use your imagination to keep more green in your wallet.  Or, be like me and many others here, and be on the lookout for used tooling for sale at good prices, preferably where you can check it out before buying it.  You will end up with lots of tools with some white elephants thrown in, maybe useful some day, maybe just conversation pieces others are unloading.  If the pricing is right, tool lots and vintage tooling can be great deals.


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## Reeltor (Jul 31, 2017)

I have to agree with Bob, only buy tooling when you have a need for it and keep an eye out for used tooling.  When I first got my mill, I wasted a lot of money on tooling that I thought I needed.  Some has never been used and maybe never will.  On the other hand, I knew I wanted to cut gears and setup a eBay search for dividing heads.  It took over 2-years but I finally found a DH made for my mill and the seller accepted my make an offer price.  It was over a year before I needed, it but it was there to use and at a price that I could afford.


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## chips&more (Jul 31, 2017)

A toolaholic does not ask that question. A toolaholic would ask...where is the next tool sale!


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## David S (Jul 31, 2017)

I find a set of parallels handy, but make sure they are appropriate for the size of your vise.

David


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## kd4gij (Jul 31, 2017)

It is better to have and not need, then to not have and need.   Any tool purchase is a good purchase.


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## Investigator (Jul 31, 2017)

Thanks for the input.  I got real lucky buying machines, and was able to resell one lathe which left me with some "free money" to tool up.  I was thinking of a rotary table for the mill with dividing plates.  I don't need it right now, but I 'think' it would be handy.   My thoughts for the moment are a 4" vise, rotary table, fly cutter set, ER32/R8 collet chuck and collets, R8 Drill chuck, clamping set, and to start with the 20 pc set of end mills with both 2 and 4 flutes.  I also need indicators for set up and tramming.

I have a 8x28 round column mill, the Enco RF30/31 by the way.


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## Investigator (Jul 31, 2017)

And parallels, almost forgot.


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## mikey (Jul 31, 2017)

I'm with the guys that suggest you buy the basics and add tooling as you need it. I'm going to guess that for most new hobby guys, a rotary table will gather dust for some years before you have the need for it. I'll go so far as to say wait on the clamping set (and the 1-2-3 blocks) until you have the need; a good vise is going to handle the vast majority of your clamping needs in the near future. Instead, buy some good end mills - both roughing and finishing. The cheapy 20 piece end mill sets are fine for learning but I find good cutters are important.

Save yourself some grief and buy or make a decent flycutter; you will need this to square work pieces before starting almost every project.  I would suggest an inserted carbide flycutter instead of using brazed carbide or HSS. 

Some spotting drills will come in handy. Also buy some good drills. Wire size first, fractional second and letter sized last. You will need them all eventually, just as you will need good taps and reamers that will follow them. 

Buy one really good dial test indicator so you can reliably tram your vise; a 0.0005" one is most useful. Don't forget you will need a way to hold the indicator.

Buy a decent dial indicator to tram the column. One that is not as commonly used but that works well is the old Starrett back plunger type that can usually be found cheap on ebay. It has a button tip that slides over T-slots easily, and its 0.001" sensitivity is enough for tramming.

And yes, you need parallels. 1/8" thick is most useful but almost as useful is a thin parallel set. These thin ones go up in height in 1/16" increments and are very useful when positioning a thin workpiece in the vise. They also allow you to support a workpiece and drill it close to an edge.

Speaking of edges, buy a good edge finder. The venerable Starrett 827A works well, for under $30.00. Brown & Sharpe and Mitutoyo also make good ones. 

Before you buy a rotary table, I would buy a boring head, a good set of cobalt bars for it, a set of telescoping gauges and micrometers so I could make a decent hole. I would also buy an angle block set, a tilting angle table and a small vise to sit on it before I would buy a rotary table; this will allow you to cut angles on a work piece like, say, a carriage stop for your lathe.

Good luck. I think you will find that if you buy stuff as you need it and buy good stuff, you will save money in the long run.


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## ch2co (Jul 31, 2017)

kd4gij said:


> It is better to have and not need, then to not have and need.



Sorta depends on how deep your pockets happen to be. I've found out on several occations that even if don't have a given tool, you can often 
find a go around that works.  Just fill your p0ckets with ingenuity if you don't have the cash.


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## 4GSR (Jul 31, 2017)

*Useless tooling? *

I have a whole shop full of it!  Well, I may have a need for it some day.  It don't eat hay. 

*Wasted money?* 

Well, ugh, no. Its an investment!!!


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## Ken from ontario (Jul 31, 2017)

I'm novice hobbyist, the way I buy tools is , I first choose a project that I find interesting which also helps me learn a few new tricks, then I start researching how many ways are there to do it ,choose the way with the difficulty level that matches my level of experience  , then buy the tools to do it right. so for every project I'll need a couple of new tools , my needs are dependent on the projects.
There's the reason why people consider this to be an expensive hobby, by the time you finish a few small projects you'll have acquired a whole bunch of tools, the trick is to buy the type of tools that can be used for multiple projects.


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## DaveD (Jul 31, 2017)

As a hobbiest I started out buying the basics. Then as I watched some better YouTube videos I saw where a new piece of tooling, some basic fixture or some basic measuring device would be needed to expand my capabilities. All my life I have looked at tools, fixtures, etc and said to myself 'if I just had that 'thing' on that other job I did life would have been a lot easier'. So if I can afford it I buy it for a possible future job. I have also learned over the years that a tool, fixture, clamp, etc is not sacred. Need a custom offset wrench. That what the cutting torch and welder are for.


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## randyjaco (Aug 1, 2017)

Being a tool junkie (unless it's a poor quality tool) there is no such thing as a useless tool. Now I do have a ton of tools that I use less than once a year and a feeew duplicates  ;-) 

Randy


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## Scruffy (Aug 1, 2017)

Stick with the basics until you need something. I kills me when someone will send twice as much on a vise as they paid for the mill Oh well I really don't know much about this except I gave away a whole set off r-8 collets because of putting the cart ahead of the horse.
Thanks scruffy ron


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## 4GSR (Aug 1, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> ....................I gave away a whole set off r-8 collets because of putting the cart ahead of the horse.
> Thanks scruffy ron


Don't feel bad, I've let this happen many times over the past 40 years, too!


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## Bob Korves (Aug 1, 2017)

Investigator said:


> R8 Drill chuck


Especially on a bench top mill, it might be wise to get a drill chuck with a straight arbor rather than a R8 arbor.  It takes much less headroom to change out the straight shank chuck, and even less if you cut off the straight arbor to an inch or so long.  You will find that useful with the limited headroom of the bench top mill.  It will also let the chuck fit on other machines (without R8) as well.


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## Glenn Brooks (Aug 1, 2017)

The stuff I use the most are a good Kurt vise and  parallels, an assortment of bits and collets, a few drill bits, and a bench grinder.  Nowadays I usually go to my drill press to drill initial holes.  But in some precision hole drilling, a chuck for your mill might be handy- someday.

You will definitely need a bench grinder or two to sharpen your drill bits and prep your raw material, then break sharp edges after milling.  I actually also have a separate, small 4" ID bench grinder with very fine stone wheels exclusively for keening up drill and lathe bits.  Along with a couple of Arkansas whet stones to manually hone the edges, as needed.  Use these for grinding HSS lathe bits as well. I probably go to one of my bench grinders at least twice, sometimes  5 or 6 times, every time I make a part with a mill. 

In the beginning, I absolutely had to have a rotary table and dividing head. Found two DH's at pretty good prices.   Never used either so far.  One day this coming winter I plan to take them out of their shipping crates and figure out a use for them. Used the RT twice. And there it sits with my extra lathe chucks, making rust. I clean it a lot, that's about it. FWIW. 

Actually, what you might also use a lot are a bunch of shop made work holding clamps, and maybe a commercially made angle plate or two. These are handy to hold work to the table, sometimes vertically as well as horizontal, if you don't have a GOOD vise. 

Everything else is just fun to have. You might need it some day!

Glenn


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## richl (Aug 3, 2017)

Instead of a rotary table, I have found that collect blocks ( I use er40, but 5c are common) and are more useful to me. You still have a sizeable investment in collects, but they can also be shared with the lathe ( the collect blocks work in the lathe Chuck too).

I put a 6" Chuck in my rotary table, it's gets enough use that I leave it bolted to the table.

Get an awesome set of drill bits
Collects or endmills,( I prefer collets)
I use 1/8"parallels alot
End mills roughers, finishers (get good ones, they are a good investment)
Flycutter
Calipers, mics, tape, ruler

I went thru this some 4 years ago, little money and a crazy desire to own everything, I just could not afford it. Most the above items were what I had. But I made many clamps, hold downs, t nuts. Books, Harold hall has some good ones, he has many great ideas for making tooling.

Everyone's ideas here are pretty spot on.

I just thought of this, it pays to find fleemarkets and such, we have a couple decent ones around here that I visit every couple of weeks, I usually find a trinket or 2. One guy shows up every Sunday with machinist tooling. I usually give him 60-100 when I visit his booth
Hth


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## Rootpass (Aug 3, 2017)

I would suggest Harold Hall's book Milling: a complete course. He starts simple with making your own tool and builds on that. The projects are well thought out and come from a hobbiests perspective. Some of his designs are simple and brilliant work around when you don't have the "proper" tooling. Also visit his website. There are tons of price at with drawings and instructions.  http://www.homews.co.uk/
If you can't tell, I'm a big fan of his. I've enjoyed making several of his designs.


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## Ulma Doctor (Aug 3, 2017)

i'm of the mind that tools, materials, will and some skill can make just about anything you have the need for.
IMO, there is no wasted money spent on tooling- only greater capability comes from having more tools.
sometimes that unused tooling can possibly be bartered for other goods or services, unbeknownst at the time of acquisition.

i'm hardly the voice of reason- my name is Mike- i'm a toolaholic


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## benmychree (Aug 3, 2017)

I believe that with tools as with celestial bodies, there exists an issue of gravity; once you accumulate a sufficient mass of stuff, other stuff (in the form of tools and like things) will be attracted to your little piece of space; it has worked all too well for me ---


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## Ulma Doctor (Aug 3, 2017)

benmychree said:


> I believe that with tools as with celestial bodies, there exists an issue of gravity; once you accumulate a sufficient mass of stuff, other stuff (in the form of tools and like things) will be attracted to your little piece of space; it has worked all too well for me ---


Having seen your treasure trove, i can attest to your bountiful workshop!
i have felt the gravitational pull and it has affected me!


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## benmychree (Aug 3, 2017)

Ulma Doctor said:


> Having seen your treasure trove, i can attest to your bountiful workshop!
> i have felt the gravitational pull and it has affected me!


You are very welcome!


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## Glenn Brooks (Aug 3, 2017)

Another 'Aye' for Harold Hall!  He has put a lot of his designs-maybe all of it- on the web.  I've made a bunch of work holding for my small Burke #4 as I don't have a vise small enuf for the little table.  Mr. Hall's designs are a very nice improvement in the tooling department.


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## .LMS. (Aug 4, 2017)

Rootpass said:


> I would suggest Harold Hall's book Milling: a complete course. He starts simple with making your own tool and builds on that. The projects are well thought out and come from a hobbiests perspective. Some of his designs are simple and brilliant work around when you don't have the "proper" tooling. Also visit his website. There are tons of price at with drawings and instructions.  http://www.homews.co.uk/
> If you can't tell, I'm a big fan of his. I've enjoyed making several of his designs.




Thanks for that recommendation.  I have been looking for something exactly like these books for a couple years to help me learn how to use and abuse my lathe.   I just downloaded the Kindle version to read on the vacation I am leaving for in an hour.


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## Silverbullet (Aug 4, 2017)

My list of most needed to have with a mill. Vise bigger is better, hold down set bolts and clamps , parallel set. Drill bits up to 1/2" ,  endmills several sizes and types. Indicator set , mag base, fly cutter home mades fine. Square and vee block. 
This should get you going add more as needed.


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