# New tires and vibration



## DiscoDan (Aug 5, 2022)

Gentleman, I have a 2011 Nissan Frontier pickup. I just had five new tires installed, balanced and the truck was aligned (4 wheel). Before the new tires the steering wheel did not vibrate but it does now at all speeds but most noticeably at 60+. It has been back twice to check the balance and the alignment and it came back only slightly better the first time and there was no change after the second time. They were claiming that I need new shocks and or struts. So I took it to the shop where I normally get my routine maintenance done, who I trust a lot more, and they are saying that I need a new steering rack because it is leaking and the rubber mounts are worn out. They said the rest of the suspension looks just fine. What I just can't fathom is why there would be no vibration before the new tires but all of a sudden now there is vibration after putting new tires on. The new steering rack will be $1,800, big hit to the wallet.

Does anyone have experience in this type of field that would be able to weigh in and give me your opinion?


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## Ulma Doctor (Aug 5, 2022)

I would be suspect of the tire balance, even though it has been done already.
Not all tire balance machines are equal.
Static balancers are horrible for high speed operating 
Inexpensive or near obsolete dynamic balancers are often purchased by small tire shops , some work ok- most show their shortcomings. 
I had a similar situation wit my 56 Chevy Hardtop Post, i let the tire shop balance the tires, only to have my alignment shop to correct the faulty balancing job performed at the tire shop.


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## Aukai (Aug 5, 2022)

It's possible the bead seated crooked ,or not 100% seated, and has made the tire slightly out of round, or the tread might be slightly out of round/defective.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 5, 2022)

The shop that put the tires on was National Tire and Battery otherwise known as NTB. So I would think their equipment would be up to snuff. I believe that the second shop that I took it to also checked the balance and said that the balance was fine. I may ask them to check whether the tires maybe out of round.


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## westerner (Aug 5, 2022)

Aukai said:


> It's possible the bead seated crooked ,or not 100% seated


This is most likely suspect in my mind. 

Unless you bought new wheels too, and the kids at the tire shop did not use the correct lug nuts. 

I see both tapered lug and flat face wheels and lug nuts. Mix that up, and it won't take long to tell. And if the capnut is too shallow, it bottoms out on the stud before the taper or flat comes tight. Don't ask me how I know....


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## rabler (Aug 5, 2022)

Even a small piece of grit between rim and hub can make a tire run slightly off, or a small ding, etc.  All it takes is one tire off.


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## tq60 (Aug 6, 2022)

A bad tire can do this.

A few things to try.

First, have someone else drive their car with you.

Get on the freeway with them behind you and be on the phone with each other, yes, Bluetooth.

Simply get to the happy spot where it is acting up and have the other car look to see which one is acting up.

If they can film it do so.

Replace with spare and repeat.

If good go to tire shop and show them the video and request they inspect the tire.

If better look for another acting up and repeat.

If it was good before the new tires then all of the things they are pointing at would have been effecting the old tires, unless they damaged something changing tires.


It may be possible that a new tire grips better resulting in more interaction causing something but doubtful.

Back in 2018 our 2017 Surburban did same, tire shake and steering wheel off.

Dealer was bisected to align front end and balance all 4.

Shake speed changed from 50 to 60 and steering wheel no change.

Pep Boys balanced all 4 and good for 90 plus.

If it is not true they can simply put it on the balance machine and watch it as it spins.

If it is not perfectly seated or round the machine will allow weights to be added to balance the tire, but only valid while on machine, will change on the road.



Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## Just for fun (Aug 6, 2022)

I would suspect a defective tire.


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## Nutfarmer (Aug 6, 2022)

The tires are bad or they are not balanced properly.


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## Jim F (Aug 6, 2022)

Try swapping tires front to rear.


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## jbobb1 (Aug 6, 2022)

I'm curious about the tire brand. If it didn't vibrate before, it has to be the tires, installation or balance. I've had encounters with some tire shops that try very hard to convince you that you need "other" repairs.


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## wachuko (Aug 6, 2022)

Most likely, a defective tire… Happens more often than you would think.  Once you figure out what tire has the issue, find a place that does road force balancing.  Best way to balance is with a machine that does road force balancing.

Having said that, I friend just went through something similar… Turns out that the universal joint on the driveshaft was in need of replacement… Pure coincidence of course, but his first reaction was to blame the tire place for bad tires…

So check the driveshaft!


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## Flyinfool (Aug 6, 2022)

You can easily check roundness yourself. Just jack it up and put it on safety stands and spin the tires. You can often easily see the out of round as it is spinning. A lump or bulge in a tire can also be seen. For the drive wheels you may have to put it in gear at idle only with a driver in the car to hit the brakes quick if anything bad is happening.

As mentioned it could be a piece of debris trapped between the wheel and its mounting surface. This will not show up on the balancer since the balancer mounts of the center bore of the wheel.

Many shops have the new guy doing tires, I have seen a tire machine bend a rim. Especially while breaking the bead on the old tires. Once you can spin the tires you can see a rim that is not straight as well as tire issues.

I would start by looking at the front tires. The fronts are the ones most likely to cause a steering wheel vibration. The rears can but they have to be much worse than a front to shake the steering.
Since you have a full size spare of the same new tire, Mount the spare on one of the fronts and go for a test drive. Move the spare to each corner of the car to see if you can identify the problem tire. Then you can concentrate on finding the issue with that one tire.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Aug 6, 2022)

What are tires? Brand & model? I run 33" GoodYear Dura tracs. They are heavy and road force balancing is almost a must. I have them rebalanced every 3k on top of that. They are just very "luggy" and ir doesn't take much. I would guess each wheel weighs close to 100#. It's a monster to get the spare off at chest level and worse to get one back up there.


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## sdelivery (Aug 6, 2022)

I have had some horrible experiences with NTB.
One thing I learned from NTB is that you can go to any other NTB.
Go to another store and have them balance the tires.


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## Jake M (Aug 7, 2022)

DiscoDan said:


> Gentleman, I have a 2011 Nissan Frontier pickup. I just had five new tires installed, balanced and the truck was aligned (4 wheel). Before the new tires the steering wheel did not vibrate but it does now at all speeds but most noticeably at 60+. It has been back twice to check the balance and the alignment and it came back only slightly better the first time and there was no change after the second time. They were claiming that I need new shocks and or struts. So I took it to the shop where I normally get my routine maintenance done, who I trust a lot more, and they are saying that I need a new steering rack because it is leaking and the rubber mounts are worn out. They said the rest of the suspension looks just fine. What I just can't fathom is why there would be no vibration before the new tires but all of a sudden now there is vibration after putting new tires on. The new steering rack will be $1,800, big hit to the wallet.
> 
> Does anyone have experience in this type of field that would be able to weigh in and give me your opinion?



My first question is, what tires?  Make/model/size.   How many miles on the new tires?  

Was the shake IMMEDIATE, the very first time you got to shaking speed, or did it wait a few days?

Who installed the tires?  Chain store?  Gas station garage?  Dealership?  Internet sale, pre-mounted?  Other?

Given that you've already gone to whoever put them on the vehicle, and a second opinion shop, these three questions determine where you go from here.

There's a lot of reasons that tires can cause a shake.  Tires aren't a given thing, there's price point issues, where they don't cost enough to make the inside and outside diameters concentric.  There's application issues, where they may be the exact right size, but don't belong on a particular vehicle.  There's build issues with all the layers in a tire from under engineering (for price OR for application), there's over engineering issues for a lot of applications (especially light trucks) .  There's storage issues, and occasionally just a bum tire from a desirable and good quality manufacturer.  These are a commodity item after all.

Shocks do not do this.  They can and do fail, but typically they wear over time.  And if it were "failed" failed, you'd know, no questions asked, and you wouldn't be blaming the tire shop because the symptoms are way different.  It's NOT a shake, vibration, or anything of the sort.  If something changed at the time the tires were installed...  It wasn't and isn't a shock.  Blow that off, don't go there.

The leaking steering rack is not surprising on that vehicle.  In fact, it was probably leaking for quite some time.  There's nothing like a good shake in the front end though to get that oil to start coming out of the boot vents.  That should probably be on the to do list, but it does not, will not, and can not be related to your shaking in the steering wheel.  Two separate items.  Either it was pre-existing and the shake caused the evidence to become visible, or it's leaking some other place and got noticed because everybody's looking all of a sudden.  But no relation beyond that.

Alignments.... Do not cause shakes.  All kind of squirrley driving symptoms are possible, but shaking isn't on the list.  Good to have done once in a while, but really not very often.  Usually about the life of a set of ball joints is a good metric, unless something happened in the mean time.  If you've got appropriate tire wear, there's no real need or gain.  If suspension parts are changed, there's a little fender bender that didn't get any deeper than the bumper...  Yeah, get it aligned, because it got deeper than the bumper.  Vehicles have an amazing amount of "dimensional tolerance" built into them, to the point that even on a brand new car, you don't care beyond the alighment, but things moved.

The first thing to address such a complaint as what you have, new tires or old tires, is for someone to drive the vehicle.  Someone with enough knowledge and experience to UNDERSTAND how a vehicle works.  Understanding this stuff is far different from being able to call it out and replace it at lightning speed.  They'll be able to use their senses, and dial in on where the shake is.  Wheel speed, twice wheel speed, front or rear.   Then they're gonna start moving tires in a calculated fashion, based on that test drive, and re-drive the vehicle.  They will nail down to one, two, three, or four tires, know what position they're in, and probably (no guarantees) know what the defect is in the tire.

Honestly, if this last thing (driving the vehicle, and strategically moving the tires) did not happen at the tire shop, they're not qualified to fix the problem, or they're not willing to fix the problem because the margins on tires are so low.  Or both.  I did not see where you specifically and exactly said this, but IF my understanding is correct, and your trusted mechanic called out a leaking steering rack as a possibility for a steering wheel shake, then you should not trust this mechanic to diagnose a steering wheel shake.  They SHOULD tell you about such things, anything their eyes fall on while investigating your complaint should be be brought to your attention, but to correlate the two things is not right, and is the beginning of a shotgun diagnosis.  Did your regular mechanic drive the vehicle?


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## DiscoDan (Aug 7, 2022)

To answer some of the questions, I was kind of a cheapskate when buying these tires because I had to replace all five of them and I had some other work to do so the repair bill was getting kind of high. They were the lowest price tire that NTB had called the Performer CXV Sport. The next more expensive tire was almost $60 more each. The second place that I took my truck that I do trust did a full inspection of the suspension and said everything looks good except for the steering rack leaking and the steering rack bushings. He did not tell me it would solve the problem, he just told me that it might prematurely wear my new tires and even said it wasn't critical but to do it fairly soon. He also checked the balance of the tires and said that they were balanced just fine. He still has my truck so I will talk to him tomorrow about checking the tire for out of round.

So to me it really comes down to a tire issue. I'm going to take it back and I'm going to make them fix it one way or another.

Thanks for all the great suggestions


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## wachuko (Aug 7, 2022)

Humor me… please check the driveshaft universal joints…


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## Jake M (Aug 8, 2022)

DiscoDan said:


> To answer some of the questions, I was kind of a cheapskate when buying these tires because I had to replace all five of them and I had some other work to do so the repair bill was getting kind of high. They were the lowest price tire that NTB had called the Performer CXV Sport. The next more expensive tire was almost $60 more each. The second place that I took my truck that I do trust did a full inspection of the suspension and said everything looks good except for the steering rack leaking and the steering rack bushings. He did not tell me it would solve the problem, he just told me that it might prematurely wear my new tires and even said it wasn't critical but to do it fairly soon. He also checked the balance of the tires and said that they were balanced just fine. He still has my truck so I will talk to him tomorrow about checking the tire for out of round.
> 
> So to me it really comes down to a tire issue. I'm going to take it back and I'm going to make them fix it one way or another.
> 
> Thanks for all the great suggestions



I wouldn't hold too high of an expectation for that tire.  It comes from TBC which is (essentially) an importer for stuff that Sumitomo and Michelin won't put their name on.  Odds are that the tires run dead true, and are smooth as can be at "good" speeds, but there's a radial force (essentially the "spring rate" of the tire caused by the way the inner reinforcement (the belts) are put together using minimal materials.  But they "should" be able to come up with four usable ones, eventually.

Your trusted mechanic, I'm relieved a little bit to hear that they did not blame the rack for the shake, but I'm still concerned that they would blame that for tire wear.  It's a rack and pinion gear.  The rack is just a bar of metal that holds the inner tie rods at a fixed dimension apart.  You move it back and forth with a gear.  The power part is just a hydraulic overlay.  Zero influence on tire wear.  Gotta get it done one day, yes.  Emergency, no.  Tire wear?  No.   The tie rod ends that are attached to it....  Sure.  Those will wear tires.  There's no fluid in those.  They just screw on to the rack.  So still questionable reasoning.

I'd go back to the tire shop, and look for someone in management.  Be firm, but don't yell.  They're people.  Maybe or maybe not qualified for the job that they're in, maybe or maybe not capable of diagnosing anything, (They did elect to make their mark on the world by  cherry picking the low hanging fruit for vehicle maintenance.)  But they are people.  As soon as it devolves into yelling, the doors close.

You had zero shakes in the wheel, they installed tires, and you had shakes in the wheel.  Something changed, and the symptom appeared.  They called out some possible faults, which are not plausible, and yet you had them second opinioned, and there are no faults related to this.  Don't try to argue specific points, specific components.  Give them the overview.  They did their part, (and something went wrong), you did your part, (following up on their advice), all that leads to tires, the ball is now in their court, what are they going to do.   They didn't make enough on those tires to cover the cost of labor to have them rebalanced the first time...  They're not interested.  They are obligated, but they'd rather not.   Be firm.  Don't yell but be firm.

If there's anybody knowledgable at that tire store, they're gonna (probably.....) move tires (like a mechanic diagnosing WHICH tire is the problem), and they're gonna move the bad one to the right rear, where (probably) you'll notice it the least.  Don't take that, because then you can never rotate your tires.  Point out that this simply proves it's a defect, and hold out until they get the shake dealt with.


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## seasicksteve (Aug 8, 2022)

Ulma Doctor said:


> I would be suspect of the tire balance, even though it has been done already.
> Not all tire balance machines are equal.
> Static balancers are horrible for high speed operating
> Inexpensive or near obsolete dynamic balancers are often purchased by small tire shops , some work ok- most show their shortcomings.
> I had a similar situation wit my 56 Chevy Hardtop Post, i let the tire shop balance the tires, only to have my alignment shop to correct the faulty balancing job performed at the tire shop.


^^^^^^ This not only are the machines not equal but the operators are not as well. I just went through this, has 4 new tires mounted and balanced and it was vibrating. I took it to another shop and asked to have the balance checked only 1 of the 4 was even close. Had them rebalanced and was good to go. Apparently the tech did not know how to properly operate the balancing machine, I asked for and received a refund


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## pontiac428 (Aug 8, 2022)

All of the above.  But there may be truth to what the guy told you about worn struts (macpherson), rod ends, and ball joints, or king pins.  They develop slop as they wear, and as suspension cycles on worn parts toe can go past neutral causing wander and vibes.  Wheel bearings can do stuff like that too.  It's a system, and components affect each other.


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## Jake M (Aug 8, 2022)

DiscoDan said:


> The shop that put the tires on was National Tire and Battery otherwise known as NTB. So I would think their equipment would be up to snuff. I believe that the second shop that I took it to also checked the balance and said that the balance was fine. I may ask them to check whether the tires maybe out of round.



Spinning a wheel on the balancer  is the easiest way there is to spot an out of round tire.  If somebody was already looking for a shake....  I can't say what happened, but somebody was looking square at it, rotating, with far better visual reference to spot it compared to being on the vehicle.


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## deakin (Aug 8, 2022)

alignment has no bearing on balance
i can only go on what you say and you say was fine before
driveshaft issues will be felt in the seat, not the wheel
most likely - from what you say a defective or out of round tire
the BIG question is: why don't you have the tire people take a test ride with you - then it's their job to correct it
(i true tires and have fixed problem cases in the past with out of round tires. your tire shop most likely can not do that)
note: per a previous answer. i static balance all my tires and have no high speed issues. manufacturers bring new motorhomes to me to true and balance a demo when they do a show in my area


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## Janderso (Aug 8, 2022)

wachuko said:


> Most likely, a defective tire… Happens more often than you would think.  Once you figure out what tire has the issue, find a place that does road force balancing.  Best way to balance is with a machine that does road force balancing.
> 
> Having said that, I friend just went through something similar… Turns out that the universal joint on the driveshaft was in need of replacement… Pure coincidence of course, but his first reaction was to blame the tire place for bad tires…
> 
> ...


You beat me to it.
We had a Hunter Road Force diagnostic machine at the dealership.
It would tell you if the tire was out of or exceeded specs.
It would also tell you where to clock the wheel to the tire for best outcome.
Defective tires were fairly rare but we had them for sure.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 9, 2022)

UPDATE: I went in this morning ready for battle but the manager was super helpful and said it sounds like the tires and that will be a warranty claim...no argument at all! So I'm going to step up and put some Michelin tires on it and just pay the difference and they will cover all of the labor!


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## Just for fun (Aug 9, 2022)

Sounds good.  Glad they stepped up and took care of you.


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## slow-poke (Aug 9, 2022)

Good decision. When I purchased my present Lexus used, they had just installed the cheapest crap set of new tires they could find.  They were so lousy I could not put up with them and after one week, put on a new set of Michelin and it completely transformed the ride, noise and handling, simply night and day difference.

Last year it was time for new tires on my wife's 450H, Tire Rack recommended Continental Cross Contact , really nice tires (all things good)

I'm a total cheapskate, but not for tools or tires.


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## great white (Aug 9, 2022)

DiscoDan said:


> UPDATE: I went in this morning ready for battle but the manager was super helpful and said it sounds like the tires and that will be a warranty claim...no argument at all! So I'm going to step up and put some Michelin tires on it and just pay the difference and they will cover all of the labor!


Hard to go wrong with a set of Michelins. I run them on all my vehicles, even the motorcycles.

Although, like everything else these days, the Michelins you get these days are not like the Michelins of old.....


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## brino (Aug 9, 2022)

great white said:


> Although, like everyone else these days, the Michelins you get these days are not like the Michelins of old.....



@great white
I could sell you some really old Michelin's.
Unless you're the type with a hang-up about wanting treads..........  
Brian


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## Jake M (Aug 9, 2022)

DiscoDan said:


> UPDATE: I went in this morning ready for battle but the manager was super helpful and said it sounds like the tires and that will be a warranty claim...no argument at all! So I'm going to step up and put some Michelin tires on it and just pay the difference and they will cover all of the labor!



That is excellent news, and a very generous resolution.


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## Ulma Doctor (Aug 10, 2022)

DiscoDan said:


> UPDATE: I went in this morning ready for battle but the manager was super helpful and said it sounds like the tires and that will be a warranty claim...no argument at all! So I'm going to step up and put some Michelin tires on it and just pay the difference and they will cover all of the labor!


great news!
i run nothing but michelin's , i get between 60 and 70K out of a set


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## Janderso (Aug 10, 2022)

great white said:


> Although, like everything else these days, the Michelins you get these days are not like the Michelins of old...


I was in the tire business for over 25 years. I would only put Michelin LTX MS on my trucks.
About ten years ago we started to see sidewall cracking like sun damage. We also saw increased wear patterns we hadn't seen in previous years. (not on the LTX series)
I have also noticed the club tires, Michelin included are one time production runs. If you have an issue like a road hazard or something, you may not find a replacement. I also think the quality wasn't the same on club tires. (Costco, Sam's etc) = Great pricing for sure and most tires are great. Just be aware.

I wasn't always a big fan of Goodyears but I am on my second set of Wranglers on my 2017 F 150. I get the LT version for increased tire pressures over the P rated. 65,000 miles on my factory set. I replaced them just because I was towing and didn't trust them, not because they were worn out.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Janderso (Aug 10, 2022)

slow-poke said:


> When I purchased my present Lexus used, they had just installed the cheapest crap set of new tires they could find.


Very common practice I'm afraid.


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## great white (Aug 10, 2022)

Janderso said:


> I was in the tire business for over 25 years. I would only put Michelin LTX MS on my trucks.
> About ten years ago we started to see sidewall cracking like sun damage. We also saw increased wear patterns we hadn't seen in previous years. (not on the LTX series)
> I have also noticed the club tires, Michelin included are one time production runs. If you have an issue like a road hazard or something, you may not find a replacement. I also think the quality wasn't the same on club tires. (Costco, Sam's etc) = Great pricing for sure and most tires are great. Just be aware.
> 
> ...


If you tow heavy or often, maybe consider E class tires.

Lt is a type, not a classification. They can be anything from a 4 ply (P) to a 10 ply (E). Ya gotta pay attention when buying truck tires as they throw "LT" around a lot giving people the impression they are "tougher" or "better" than passenger tires.

But they're not always (tougher). You have to pay attention to the rating on the tire wall, not the ad hype or you can end up with essentially passenger car tires on your truck and odd handling (or risking blowouts in worse case scenarios) when you load them up like you would an E tire.

I used to tow a 10k travel trailer with first a 3/4 ton diesel and then an F150 with the max tow package. Get less than E rated tires on there and you could really feel the tire carcass shifting around under heavy load. Not good.

I was always amazed that the "little" 3.5L v6 in my f150 woudl pull as wel as (if not better) than my older 3/4 ton GMC diesel. Just cray how much power it makes.

But you likely already know all this tire class stuff if you worked in tires for a 1/4 century.......


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## Janderso (Aug 10, 2022)

great white said:


> If you tow heavy or often, maybe consider E class tires.


I would agree if the load required it. I pull a 5,000# trailer so I am comfortable with the D series.
E rated tires ride kind of rough on a lighter chassis like an F 150.
imho


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## great white (Aug 10, 2022)

Janderso said:


> I would agree if the load required it. I pull a 5,000# trailer so I am comfortable with the D series.
> E rated tires ride kind of rough on a lighter chassis like an F 150.
> imho


Yep, they can. Like everything else, it's a compromise between what you need and what you want. Comfort or load capacity....


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## aliva (Aug 10, 2022)

Just slightly off topic ,I bought a used boat and trailer. The first day of trailering the boat to the local water way I noticed trailer sway.( the boat was a 20' fiberglass  bow rider) I figured it was the hitch or something in that area ,but found nothing unusual. I didn't have a spare for the trailer so I decided to bring the trailer and have it inspected and buy a new spare. Well the existing tires were found to be passenger tires, not trailer tires. I ended up buying  new Carlisle trailer tires with the proper load and speed rating, the swaying disappeared. I kept one passenger tire for the spare.


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## DiscoDan (Aug 10, 2022)

FINAL UPDATE: It was the tires. I got the Michelins installed today and it rides like a dream. It took a while to get here but NTB took care of it. Thank you everyone for all of your input.


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## Just for fun (Aug 10, 2022)

Good deal.... Thanks for the thanks for the update!


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## wachuko (Aug 10, 2022)

I like happy endings.


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