# New to me SB 10-R



## Ed T (Feb 11, 2013)

I just purchased a WW II vintage 10-R. The story that came with it is that it was purchased by a dentist after the war and he had it for some time. I bought it from a guy who got it at the estate sale along with a bunch of other stuff. Apparently, the dentist went through the SB catalog and ordered one of almost everything that might go with the lathe and much of it is still in the original packaging. Included in the accessories are: tool post grinder with wheels, 4 jaw Simmons chuck, 3 jaw Cushman chuck, 1/2" Jacobs chuck, Collet drawbar and nose piece and 25 SB collets all in the original Bakelite tubes in the original SB set boxes (unused as far as I can tell), a very nice tailstock mounted adjustable boring bar, about ten assorted armstrong tool holders including some odd boring bar holders and a Williams thread cutter with an interesting "indexable" cutter, SB tool post mounted boring bar holder, SB diamond wheel dresser with the special fixtures for setting up the TPG, SB adjustable stop for the cross slide, about 2 cups of cutting tools, between centers boring bar and a bunch of other miscellanea. It experienced a tip over at some point and there was some damage to the front side handles which had been repaired to a point of functionality, but only just. I have started disassembly and I am pretty encouraged by the condition under 70+ years of petrified oil, dust and grime. Most of the frosting is still on the ways and cross slide. There is certainly part of the ways where the frosting is gone, but, while I can see the wear area, I cannot detect it with my fingernail Very little evidence of compound/chuck crashes. Screws are reasonably tight. I'm cleaning up the apron now and all the guts look like new once you get through the crud. I'm inclined to leave it together and just flush it out well. So far, I can see no pressing reason to take it all apart since I can see nothing that needs help. This will also avoid dealing with the spider's web of wicking strings that go all around the insides. This will be a pretty comprehensive refresh, but I see little value in taking everything apart just for the sake of taking it apart. OPINIONS???
   The machine is equipped with vintage GE 1/2 HP 110V motor (same as my 9"SB). Is it worth upgrading this to something a bit bigger while I have every thing apart. I think I may have a 3/4 hp lying around and maybe a 1.5 as well. The drive belt is done (it may be the one it came with) so that will have to be replaced. Any recommended sources of belts. I'll try to post some pics at some point. Naturally, my wife's camera decided to expire in the middle of the first photo shoot so I'll have to deal with that to show any in-progress pics. Thanks for any comments.
ET


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## Splat (Feb 11, 2013)

Congrats on the lathe but you know what they say, Ed. Pics or it didn't happen! )


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 12, 2013)

Yup, pics, I would really like to see this and all the attachments and accessories. Sounds like a great find, what did you pay for all of it? My feeling on the wicks, even though it may be a pita to change them it would be worth while and protect your investment. The wicks will have gotten full of crud and are probably quite hard as well, if they are they will not deliver oil properly and should be replaced. If they are the originals, and it sounds like they are, they are probably in need of changing.


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## Ed T (Feb 12, 2013)

OK, OK. I went out to my shop and looked around and I discovered that the lathe was GONE. I rushed in and down loaded the pics from the now-dead camera and, mirable dictu!!, the lathe re-materialized. So all of you saying that if there are no pics, it didn't happen were right. Now, all I have to figure out is how to post pictures on this forum. I looked around a bit and didn't find anything. Any secret clues so I don't bring down the site doing something stupid?


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## Ed T (Feb 12, 2013)

Ah, Cleverly concealed as "How to post a photo on this forum". No wonder I didn't find it. so maybe some pictures will show up. The full shot of the machine is about when the camera crapped out. The other shots are various items on the "accessory table". More shots soon. The lathe is now broken into sub assemblies while I decide what level of OCD is appropriate. Regardless of the final effort, there is a lot of grunge to clean up and it is Petrified.


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 13, 2013)

Wow, great score! Lots of original accessories, That's a candidate for a full restore for sure. I agree with Shawn......full on ocd! Keep posting pics as you go through this for all to see and learn from.


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## pineyfolks (Feb 13, 2013)

Great find! can't wait to see some chips rolling off it. keep us updated


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## fastback (Feb 13, 2013)

Ed, I think you got taken advantage of and you should take it back.  I feel so bad that I'll drive down and we can load it on my truck.  I'll even deliver it for you.  After all you should not have to take the time to go back.   Well maybe it wasn't such a bad deal (what a great find) good luck.

You didn't mention the price range, just curious.


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## Ed T (Feb 13, 2013)

Since there is a fair amount of interest in the price; it was $2200. Willing buyer/willing seller and all. I have been looking for a year or so and the lathe market in this area is pretty thin. It never was a big manufacturing area unlike the Northeast or the Midwest and, consequently, there not machine tools hiding in every back room. The key factors for me were: general condition and condition of the ways in particular, the broad range of accessories included, the wide availability of parts and support for SB machines, the solidness of the investment, the location (shipping is expensive). I'm pretty sure I could sell of the accessories and cover most of my cost, but I don't think I will. The main thing I didn't get was the big spindle hole (this is a Ten R, not Ten L). That can be changed, but we'll wait and see.
    Now that I have gotten into the guts of the machine I think my original assessment of the condition was correct. This was a wallflower for most of it's life. So I got lucky, I think. As mentioned before, it had a tip-over at some point and there are a few things to be sorted out from that adventure, but nothing huge. Everything works as it is, but some could be better. The two main issues are the shift lever for the gear box which has been repaired but is just a little "off". It works, but not smoothly. The screw for the cross slide has been repaired, but needs some work to be right. I could buy a nice new one, but I think I'll make a new end for the existing one and graft it on. It looks like a pretty simple part as long as I don't have to make the gear. If the repair fails, it's not the last one on the planet.
    So, I think I have a camera that works now so I'll post some more pictures of the guts soon. Thanks for the interest.


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## tigtorch (Feb 13, 2013)

Great score, Ed! I guess it's going to cause the other project to decline in importance (no problem on my side with that).  You got a ton of stuff with it, how did you find it?

Bill


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## Splat (Feb 13, 2013)

Like I said, nice find Ed!  I'm jealous of all the stuff you got with it....yes, I know you paid for it but still it's nice to have all that when you need to use it. As for how much loving care on the rebuild? I say go as far as you can because you don't want to do it again. Do it right the first time and you can sleep at nights knowing you did good and it'll last longer than most of us on this forum.


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## Ed T (Feb 14, 2013)

OK, here's a question for all of you who've done this before. I removed the spindle following the procedure with the screws and the bearing expander and all. Much to my surprise, the spring loaded wicks were not all gummy and were awash with oil. Don't know what kind, but at least there was some there. I have not disassembled the spindle. Peering through the split in the bearings, the spindle surfaces look great, but, of course, you can only see part of the bearing surface on the spindle through the split. I have reviewed the process for disassembling the spindle and my question is how big a deal is it? I think what I'm going to find is that everything is OK, but I don't want to risk busting something just to find out that there was nothing to find. I did not do a bearing clearance evaluation prior to disassembly because I didn't know what the bearing area looked like. Full of gum, sand, dark blue from over heating or what.  I am well equipped to do the job. I have gear pullers and a press so that is not a big issue, but I am not sure of what I am risking to learn very little. My "how to rebuild" book should arrive today, so that will give me a better idea of what's involved. 
    Right now I'm involved in the more pedestrian task of cleaning all the gunk off the base and the legs so I can get them painted and have a place to re-assemble the machine. They go on first.


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## Splat (Feb 14, 2013)

I say pull it and check. Better to do it and know what's what than possibly run the machine and do damage. Then you'd be kicking yourself that you didn't check. It's not that hard. You'll have the book and all of us here to help you.  :tiphat:


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 14, 2013)

Splat said:


> I say pull it and check. Better to do it and know what's what than possibly run the machine and do damage. Then you'd be kicking yourself that you didn't check. It's not that hard. You'll have the book and all of us here to help you.  :tiphat:


I agree, your already half way there, the rest is pretty easy, you'll see when you get the book. The spindle and bearings is the heart of the machine imo. replace the wicks while you are there, even if they look good, wicks are cheap, hard parts are not.


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## Ed T (Feb 14, 2013)

Ok. I'm convinced. Got the book today and it looks pretty simple....unless something sticks. Since that goes on last, I'm going to wrap it plastic and put it aside 'til later. Still working on getting the base ready to paint. I am considering turning the base on end to install the underdrive unit. Seems like it might be simpler. With that in mind, what's the opinion of the group on upgrading the 1/2 HP motor? What's the deal with the babbit bearings cast in place in the base casting? The main support rod for the drive passes through them, but it is set screwed to the base, so there's no rotation of the shaft. It looks like there were rough holes in the casting and the poured-in-place bearings were just a way to get the holes where they needed to be w/o machining them.


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 14, 2013)

_I don't see anything wrong with upgrading the motor hp, just keep the rpm the same. The only issue you might run into is the bolt holes on a modern motor may not line up as the frames are different. Many people have changed the motors in these lathes. I chose to keep mine original for the time being and see how it performs. If I was to change mine I would keep it 3 phase and maybe 1 hp, so I would only gain a 1/4 horse.__ These lathes where designed to perform with their given hp and geared accordingly._ A 1/2 hp does seem light though on first impression. I have 2 other machines with 3/4 hp that work well, one is a wood working lathe and on that one I sometimes wish it had more hp, I have just learned not to push it to hard.


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## Ed T (Feb 14, 2013)

Woodtick,
   I've looked at your entire thread and, I must say, you've set a high bar. I did notice that the motor pulley on your 3Ph  3/4HP motor appears considerably larger than the one on my 1 Ph 1/2HP motor. Rashly assuming that both are the parts that came from the factory that would mean your spindle is turning faster than mine which is one way to use the extra power. If you get a minute, would you take a quick measurement of the pulley diameter on the motor? Thanks.
ET


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 15, 2013)

Ed T said:


> Woodtick,
> I've looked at your entire thread and, I must say, you've set a high bar. I did notice that the motor pulley on your 3Ph  3/4HP motor appears considerably larger than the one on my 1 Ph 1/2HP motor. Rashly assuming that both are the parts that came from the factory that would mean your spindle is turning faster than mine which is one way to use the extra power. If you get a minute, would you take a quick measurement of the pulley diameter on the motor? Thanks.
> ET


Yes it is as it came from the factory, when I get home from work today I will get a measurement for you. It is a 2 speed, or high and low, double pully. A single phase 1/2 hp motor would be a little light on power in my opinion, sounds like someone just put in what they had. If you wanted to stay single phase I would go 1 to 1 1/2 hp and still be able to run 110v.


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 15, 2013)

Ed T said:


> Woodtick,
> I did notice that the motor pulley on your 3Ph  3/4HP motor appears considerably larger than the one on my 1 Ph 1/2HP motor. Rashly assuming that both are the parts that came from the factory that would mean your spindle is turning faster than mine which is one way to use the extra power. If you get a minute, would you take a quick measurement of the pulley diameter on the motor? Thanks.
> ET


Pulley outside diameter on the motor is 3 1/2" for the large pulley and 2 1/8" for the small pulley. The knobs I made for the cover made it quick and easy to get the cover off to measure these  Then I got to thinking if your counter shaft pulleys are the same diameter as mine?


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## Ed T (Feb 15, 2013)

Woodtick,
    No rush on the measurement. My old 9" has the two speed pulley arrangement. I can't recall ever changing it in the 50 years I've had it. Maybe I should try it sometime. I looked on my shelf of "motors that might come in handy some day" and found a nice new GE 1.5 HP, 1PH, 120/240, reversible motor so I think that may be the one.  I have 240 at several points in my shop, but I'm thinking I'll go with 120 for this machine. I have lots of 120 outlets and I'm not terribly worried about efficiency. You are correct, though, the mounting pattern is way different than the motor on the machine. Not a problem really; just another thing to deal with.


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 16, 2013)

That motor should do fine, and since you already have it the price is right. I might wire it for 220 though as it seems to be more efficient and steady as far as power goes. Do you need the counter shaft pulley measurement?


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## Ed T (Feb 16, 2013)

The motor pulley on mine appears to be 2" OD and the countershaft pulley is 10". The belt looks like a 5L XX.It looks like it rides the ID of the pulley which could be by intent but it could be that the belt is worn. Assuming the SB vee-belt pulleys are "normal" and the belt is supposed to ride the sides of the pulley, the nominal ratio would be 5-1ish at the countershaft or 325 RPM. The cone pulley on the counter shaft is bigger than the one on the spindle which speeds things up a bit. I'm going to see if I can find a speed chart and se if any of this makes any sense in terms of spindle speed. I did run the lathe briefly before I bought it and the spindle seemed slow to me, but the belt was slipping so that may be the reason. Thanks for checking for me. If you get a chance see what your counter shaft pulley looks like.
Thanks for all your help and the inspirational thread.
ET


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## Ed T (Feb 16, 2013)

As I mentioned in the intro to this thread, the machine I got had experienced a tip over and some minor damage as a result. I have started to fix some of the problems and here's the first one. The hand wheel in the apron suffered two problems when the lathe tipped over; the crank handle got bent and the back side of the hub cracked and was welded up by the PO. Associated with that repair the taper pin was replaced with a roll pin and the gear and shaft were replaced. The damaged parts looked like this:                   




I used this tool I made to remove the crank handle . Thanks to OLDMACHINIST for that tip.



After I removed the handle I put the stub end into a collet in a collet block and tapped it with a bronze hammer. No Go. So I heated the "waist" of the part where the bend seemed to be with an OA torch with a soft flame until it was dull red and tapped it a few more times and got it reasonably straight. Put it in the lathe and cleaned it up and now it looks like this;


I think it will be fine.
 I am wrestling with the weld area. It's a sound weld and hard as glass. Tried turning it down just to clean it up but decided that I needed to keep some of my cutting tools so I have ground it down some. I'll get some pics after it's done and I've dealt with the roll pin holes.
ET


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## joebiplane (Feb 17, 2013)

Ed T said:


> Since there is a fair amount of interest in the price; it was $2200. Willing buyer/willing seller and all. I have been looking for a year or so and the lathe market in this area is pretty thin.
> 
> ' A thing of beauty is a joy forever"   and what you just got is what i have at the top of my bucket list   congrats !
> joe


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## Ed T (Feb 20, 2013)

Here are a few shots of the bed ways and one of the saddle. Not the best pics of something that's hard to capture on film. Suffice it to say, much of the frosting is still there and in the areas where it's not, I can see a wear line, but I cannot feel it with my fingernail. So I think I got lucky with my initial assessment


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## woodtickgreg (Feb 20, 2013)

Wow, that bed and saddle look great, she's gonna clean up real good.


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## Ed T (Mar 5, 2013)

OK, time for an update. As I mentioned in my intro, this machine had been tipped over at some time. Recently I'd guess since I found the broken off cap screws that originally held the apron on in the chip tray. Anyhow, as I disassembled the apron for the OCD rebuild I discovered that there were some cracks in the casting on the LH end. Sort of like the corner of the apron tried to break off, but, fortunately, it didn't. Everything seemed to be in the right place and the crack was not open, it was just there. I debated several options and decided on a low impact repair that should be adequate, look good, and be strong enough. Also, it's not "undoable" like, for example, a weld job gone bad. I felt it would be good not too get the casting too hot so I chose one of my favorites, Stay Brite silver bearing soft solder. I vee'd out the cracks a bit with a Dremel cut off wheel and heated the joint with a propane torch and used zinc chloride flux and soldered up almost all of the damage. Some areas around the funny little "staples" did not want to wet out so I didn't push it. After soldering, I added a couple of screws for good measure. The photos below should give you and idea of how it worked out.


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## macrnr (Mar 5, 2013)

Nice job, I am curious what the staples are for. It almost looks like a factory "bandaid". Welding a casting like that could be trouble with the heat required, there are some close tolerances in there. Worst case, aprons can be had fairly easy. Problems like this just add to the adventure. Good Luck.


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## woodtickgreg (Mar 6, 2013)

I agree, if it was me I would be looking for a new used casting. That thing has cracks everywhere! I have not had much luck with repairing broken or cracked cast iron, not worth the time I would put into it for a repair. Nothing like a solid unbroken piece. Your repair looks great and you did a good job, but will it hold up? And is it within spec.? If I was doing an ocd rebuild I would want it right. jmo.


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## Ed T (Mar 6, 2013)

I'm almost certain that the "staples" are factory applied. There are several of them on the apron casting and they appear to be applied where there was a poor fill of the mold leading to a small void or knit line. They are under the paint in painted areas and, as you can see in the pictures, the wick hole is drilled through one of them. So, they were probably applied in the factory.


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## woodtickgreg (Mar 6, 2013)

Ed T said:


> I'm almost certain that the "staples" are factory applied. There are several of them on the apron casting and they appear to be applied where there was a poor fill of the mold leading to a small void or knit line. They are under the paint in painted areas and, as you can see in the pictures, the wick hole is drilled through one of them. So, they were probably applied in the factory.



Yup me too, I had a couple of them on my apron casting too. They must have been a bugger to cast.


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