# Looking for validation/advice on upcoming 12-13" lathe & accessories purchase



## Fallon (Jan 1, 2018)

A couple decades ago I learned a bit of machining on my mentor's old South Bend lathe, not a lot, but some of the basics. A few years ago I picked up an old cheap Atlas 6" lathe & got it back into working shape. But before I could really start using it, we moved & I sold it rather than move it. So now we are finally settled in, I have a shop & the number of projects I keep realizing I need a lathe for are piling up. So I'm looking to get a lathe to help support my tinkering & puttering hobby. I do tractor work (operating my Kubota  L4060 & keeping it & implements running) on the side. I have a bad habit of picking up cheaper old implements & trying to get them back online.

A lot of initial projects are going to be making bushings or just getting some stock & pins turned to fit, have some assorted low pressure plumbing type fitting sot make as well. Later projects are likely to be more precision projects. Might be some gunsmithing type stuff eventually. In my head that old South Bend is kind of my benchmark for size & all the projects I envision could have been done on South Bend, so I've always assumed I'd get something that size, probably old american iron. I actually don't know what size/model that SB was, guessing a 9, maybe a heavy 10, but it had a quick change gearbox.

I've been keeping an eye out for some good old american iron for a couple years, but haven't found anything. Not a lot here in Colorado compared to back east. I'm capable of checking machinery out & have done a ton of research (not quite memorized http://www.mermac.com/advicenew.html), but lack practical experience. With the time vs. money proposition as of late I'm probably just going to buy a new machine that will be up & running without a rebuild or other unknown suprises. My budget is $5k for a machine & enough tooling to get me going.

I'm probably going to be talking with Matt at PM about:

Lathe
Cast stand
Leveling feet
DRO
Drill chuck
Boring/turning tool set
Threading tool set
I think I'm looking at a PM-1236 12″X36″ with the preferred package & just getting all the aforementioned stuff from Precision Mathews. I'd love to upgrade to the non-chinesium Taiwanese PM-1340GT, but not sure I can justify the extra $1,500. Part of me wants to wait & get it, but realistically over half my projects are going to be pretty rough is good enough (tractor implements aren't that precise). When I tick all the option & tooling boxes to get me inline with the list above, the PM-1340GT comes to around $7k, a PM-1236-T (baby 1340GT that should be the same quality as the bigger one, but has yet to get much reviews) hear is $6lk. Ticking all the boxes on the PM-1236 & adding in shipping gets me to $5k more or less. I could swing the 1340GT & blow my budget, but it would impact some other projects. I'd rather cry once why buying than cry every time I use it. 

I may be able to find a better deal on some tooling, but am concerned about making sure stuff fits for now to get started. I'm sure I'll spend the next years or decades trolling Craigslist & auctions looking for deals once I re-familiarize myself with working on a lathe & more specifically whatever I end up getting.

Should I bother with the tooling from PM? Is it all carbide? From what I can gather in my research, I'll probably be best starting off grinding my own HSS. What size HSS should I be looking at? Any recommendations for a place to get some pre-ground HSS tooling to get started on day 1 & so I'd have something on-hand to copy rather than just all the YouTube videos I've seen?

Will probably pick up elsewhere online, unless PM has stuff in stock but not listed on their website:

Live center (looks to be included on the GT prefered package)
Some HSS tool stock
A gallon or 2 of hydraulic oil
Way oil
Gear I already have:

Digital calipers
Dial gauge with mag mount
Bench grinders (although I should probably get a better tool grinder, my current ones should get me started)
1-2-3 blocks
Machinists level
Drill bits (many of dubious quality or condition)
Center drills
Oil can
Cutting fluid
4x6 bandsaw
500 gallons of diesel, as well as a few gallons of kerosene & a parts washer full of parts washer fluid
I don't have 220v to where the lathe will go yet, but am plenty capable of calculating wire gauge, voltage drop, getting appropriate breakers in & what not. Ran MC cable all over the shop for lighting, outlets & other stuff. Just finished building & installing a remotely controlled mag starter for a new true 5hp Quincy compressor (another case of getting burned out on rebuilding old high end gear & just getting new to get it working, the Saylor Beal rebuild will benefit from the lathe when I get it online). I'm only slightly concerned about assembly. My tractor will lift a hair under 1,900lbs & I use the pallet forks on it more than the bucket. But the lathe is going in my shop not the attached barn & the tractor cab won't fit under that door. Will figure out something moving it with a pallet jack, or borrow a 2 ton engine hoist from a friend to assemble in place.

Part of me wants to get a 3 phase machine right off the bat & VFD it, but It's a cost I can't justify yet. Would let me use the oscilloscope my wife got me for Christmas though...

A DRO is high on my accessories list, even though I could probably get by without it. I'm an IT guy at my day job & a nerd so inherently drawn to electronics. Plus I'm crap at math so any electronic aids to keep numbers straight are a very good thing. Any comments on the PM DRO vs. the Easson DRO?

Any suggestions on key stuff I'm missing from my plan & checklists? Might anybody be able to convince me to spend somebody elses money on a Taiwanese machine instead of the Chinese one? Any other thoughts or suggestions before I get around calling Matt at PM here in in a few days or before the end of the year would be appreciated.


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## dlane (Jan 1, 2018)

Ied put the 500 gallons of diesel in my truck , or sell it and get the Taiwan lathe 
aside from that your plan sounds good


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## marcusp323 (Jan 1, 2018)

Another vote for the 1340GT, won't be disappointed.
Mark


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## Chipper5783 (Jan 1, 2018)

Go with the 1340.  Pinch on the tooling, just buy it as you need it.  There are many testimonies here of folks tooling up the machine right off the bat - and most of that tooling sits unused for years.  Of course, if you can manage it - load up with tools, they don't go bad.

Even on the most basic package offered, the machine comes with a 4 way post and the basic attachments.  Add in the taper attachment (mainly because with the way products are always changing that can be difficult to add later).  A QCTP is nice but can be added later (and a 4 way post works well - I waited 25 years before adding the QCTP.  If your funds really are that tight, reconsider your decision on the DRO.  The DRO does sort out some of the math, but it adds complexity too (sort of a trade off).

I am comfortable using a DRO, and on a milling machine I believe the DRO to be a game changer.  I don't see the DRO as being a big deal on a lathe.  Granted, I have never used a lathe with a DRO - but I also know 2 machine shops that have multiple lathes in use - some with DROs and some without.

Going with 3 phase and a VFD?  Your machine cost will be the same,  but there is the additional time and money to sort out the power.  Variable speed on a lathe is not a big deal.  Obviously large numbers of lathes have been sold for more than a hundred years - not variable speed, and done lots of excellent work.  For the jobs you mentioned, there is no benefit to the VFD (sort of a cool trinket - but those pins and bushings you make will not perform better).  Using 3 phase is arguably better (?) slightly smoother drive.  I have and like 3 phase because it opened up purchasing many other industrial quality machines.  I have used an RPC for over 30 years and been very pleased with the performance (the machine simply plugs in and no modification is needed to the machine controls - some machines get started the day they come home).

If this is going to be your only machine - stay with single phase.  If you hope to get a few more machines, take the plunge and set up a 3 phase system.  A VFD is not the solution for powering multiple machines.

Yes on the preferred package.  As well as the live center, it has the drill chuck (really should get that for day one), the work light, face plate, a 3 jaw chuck - all that is well worth the extra $600 and gets you going enough to make some pins and bushings.


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## kd4gij (Jan 1, 2018)

For what you are into. I would look for a 16x40 in good shape


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## markba633csi (Jan 1, 2018)

Variable speed is certainly nice if you can afford it, as well as a collet set.   The carbide tooling can wait.  Same with the DRO
Mark
ps get a boring bar of some kind, or plan on making one


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## Tink (Jan 1, 2018)

What is the difference between their standard and PEP package?


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## Doubleeboy (Jan 1, 2018)

If you are patient and watch Craiglist you can find used Grizzly or Enco 1236 used with tooling and save a bunch of money.  I see them from time to time for under $2K with tooling.  Use it till you hate it, then sell it for near what you paid and buy your dream machine.  Chinese lower end machines don't bring big bucks used, you can take advantage of that fact if you are patient.  Not dissing China tools, just pointing out what I see in the used market place.


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## .LMS. (Jan 1, 2018)

Good luck Fallon!   I am in a similar situation (have been looking for use American iron for about a year and just can't find anything that looks like it won't be a major project).   I've done that twice already and I just want something that's just ready to go.

I am trying hard to hold off until I have enough spare cash and brownie points with the finance manager to get a Taiwanese machine, and will continue to keep an eye out for a cream puff older USA lathe.   Buy once cry once.  Gonna need to take some action by spring of this year though.


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## 7milesup (Jan 1, 2018)

Fallon:

I purchased a PM1022 lathe from Matt back in Sept. 2015.  The reason that I mention that is because I also just purchased a PM-833T mill from Matt, which is made in Taiwan.    Before I  purchased the mill, I asked Precision Matthews a lot of questions about quality.  They, and others, assured me that the quality of the castings and general quality of the machining is hands down better than a machine from China.  After receiving my mill, I will have to say that they were correct.  Not saying that the my PM1022 is bad, but the 833T from Taiwan is significantly better.  I have attached a picture of the underside of the base casting on my mill just to show what it looks like.  My lathe is not in the same category.

Second:  Before purchasing my PM1022 lathe, I spent a lot of time keeping an eye out for an older American iron lathe.  The only decent one I found was right after I purchased my lathe from Matt, and then that one was an older Jet, so not even "American Iron".  I have kept my eye out ever since but have not come up with anything.  The reality is that either the old is just that..old, or it is so huge that I have no room for it.  So, I have been looking for about 3 years without much luck.  
If it were me, I would buy the 1340GT and add to it as you go.

DRO thoughts:
One of our members recently recommended to me a DRO from AliExpress.  It is probably the same DRO systems that everyone else sells for about 3-4 times as much. They have numerous systems so not this one in particular but the link will get you started.  DRO system. Siton Technology


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## mksj (Jan 2, 2018)

You also may considered the PM-1440BV or PM-1440GS, both are close in price, come with cast iron bases, QCTP with holders, 2" spindle bore, etc. If you think you will be doing any larger turning, then these should be in the consideration. Having a 2" spindle bore is a real plus. There is an advantage to 3 phase motors with regard to surface finish, but it seems hit or miss as to with single phase lathes with regard to surface finish problems. Can't really explain why one lathe (same model) will have an issue and not another. Although lathes have historically been fixed speed, which works, you can dial in the sweet spot with a variable speed drive on the fly. I often find there is a narrow optimal speed range when boring or using larger drills.

Matt sells some inexpensive carbide tooling, my suggestion would be to go with his sets (turning, boring, threading) as a starting point, you won't have to be worrying about grinding and learning to profile HSS tooling. The CCMT/CCGT inserts work well enough to get you going. You do not need extreme speeds to use the carbide inserts, it is just that they can be pushed harder than HSS. Just an opinion, but I have been using it for years on my 1340GT and primarily use CCMT/CCGT and WNMG inserts for most of my turning. Once you get comfortable with your lathe, consider getting some better inserts, and maybe some other types/profile of tooling. On the live center, I would look at a CNC or extended point (long nose)  live center in particular if you are using CCMT tooling. Standard live center points will interfere the CCMT insert holder on small diameter work. 

Leveling feet, most everybody recommends solid metal threaded feet (usually 1/2" thread), they come up on eBay for as little as $7-10 each. Search level mount or leveling mount on eBay, S&W is a common brand. Or find a model number and search by that.

DRO, well high on my list, but then I didn't start out counting dials and revolutions. Between my eyesight and my cognitive ability at counting multiple turns, I would go with a DRO. To be blunt, you can now buy a basic 2 axis DRO with glass scales for about $250 (you want a slim line 1 micron scale on the cross slide), it will save you from a lot of mistakes. Install it yourself and save $$. A lathe you are basically reading numbers, on the mill, the added features of the higher end DRO's is a plus. Next step up would probably be an Easson DRO, like the ES12B or C and will run something like $475 from Aliexpress. Easson are very reliable, but twice the price.

So with either the above machines, basic tooling and DRO, well you are looking at around $5500-6K w/o shipping. Between the PM-1440BV or PM-1440GS, it is more a matter if you want variable speed vs. a more universal gearbox. There have been a number of discussions on these various models.


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## wrmiller (Jan 2, 2018)

As I just said in another thread here, get the best quality machine you can afford, then add tooling and extras as you can afford it. Buying a cheap(er) machine just to get a few extras could be something you regret later. IMO of course. 

I have a PM1340GT and while painful to get at the time, I knew that I was getting a high-quality machine that will outlast me. Nuff said...


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## ezduzit (Jan 2, 2018)

Look for a quality used machine with comprehensive tooling. Widen your search radius until you find what you're looking for, instead of having a new import shipped from Taiwan.


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## Fallon (Jan 5, 2018)

It hurts once when you buy an expensive tool, but it hurts every time you use a cheap one... I have a PM1340GT with the DRO & a set of carbide tooling on the way now. Blew my budget a bit, but hopefully this will last me a lifetime. Apparently all the 1236, 1340 & 14" lathes are in stock at the moment so no waiting for mine or anybody else ordering at the moment. Speaking of which, apparently prices in Asia have bumped up a notch a the end of the year. Prices are going up on the next shipment of equipment and/or when the current stock is depleted.

I had a good chat with Matt that was less helpful than I'd have liked. Mostly because of my previous research & advice from this & other threads already covered things. Basically boils down to was I willing to pay for a higher precision machine with better fit & finish as any of them, including the 1236 would have fit most of my needs. Considered the 1236 & 14's for a bit, but decided to go with the higher fit, finish & tolerance of the 1340GT. 

Anything I need to snag other than some HSS stock & way oil? Well other than scrounging up a pile of round stock to start messing up & learning on.


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## wrmiller (Jan 5, 2018)

There are quite a few members here with the 1340GT. I bought mine 3-phase and put a VFD on it. Then mksj did a bang up control system for the lathe that included power for my rpm display and my Fogbuster. If/when you can afford it, talk to mksj here. He makes some really cool control rigs for these things. 

I just received Matt's combo lathe tooling and boring bars that all use the same inserts. Wiped everything down and am looking forward to giving them a spin on the lathe (pun intended). I'll give my impressions for anyone interested.

I have a DRO Pros DRO on my lathe and when it matters, can repeat cuts to a couple of tenths (.0001 diameter resolution on the cross slide). This lathe is way more accurate than I am. 

Find yourself a small bread pan or butter dish to put under the quick change. It will drip. I used to worry about it, but my little pan got squashed in the move and I haven't bothered to replace it yet. I may not, as it's just as easy to grab a blue paper shop towel and give it a quick swipe when I'm shutting it down for the day. And get yourself a couple of good oil cans. I use them to squirt oil into all the ball oilers on the lathe prior to first turning it on.


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## Fallon (Jan 5, 2018)

wrmiller said:


> There are quite a few members here with the 1340GT. I bought mine 3-phase and put a VFD on it. Then mksj did a bang up control system for the lathe that included power for my rpm display and my Fogbuster. If/when you can afford it, talk to mksj here. He makes some really cool control rigs for these things.
> 
> I just received Matt's combo lathe tooling and boring bars that all use the same inserts. Wiped everything down and am looking forward to giving them a spin on the lathe (pun intended). I'll give my impressions for anyone interested.
> 
> ...



My wife got me an oscilicope for Christmas, so a re-wiring a lathe would be a fun adventure & probably a good excuse to test out the scope. The only obstacle is money, which I'm now short of thanks to a lathe purchase. Interestingly I might be getting a free or cheap VFD from a friend that does commercial HVAC work. That's likley to go to a 2x72 belt grinder build though. Not to mention still needing a 3 phase motor & other parts.

I have an oil can somewhere already. Not sure if it qualifies as good, but should be good enough for now.


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## wrmiller (Jan 5, 2018)

I ended up with a 1340GT and a 935TS (also converted to VFD), so I definitely understand the 'short on money' position. 

It took a bit to get everything I wanted, but I don't regret it. I now have machines that will outlast me.


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## 7milesup (Jan 6, 2018)

ezduzit said:


> Look for a quality used machine with comprehensive tooling. Widen your search radius until you find what you're looking for, instead of having a new import shipped from Taiwan.



My relatively recent tool purchases have found that having a new import shipped from Taiwan is a lot easier than driving all over nearby states looking at worn out 'Merican iron.  And, if you think that "Taiwan" means cheap crap, you haven't actually looked at a machine from Taiwan then.


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## ezduzit (Jan 6, 2018)

7milesup said:


> ...having a new import shipped from Taiwan is a lot easier than *driving all over* nearby states looking at *worn out *'Merican iron...



I have to agree that placing an order over the phone is easiest. And if you don't know what you're doing, driving all over looking at worn out machines would be a waste of time.


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## mksj (Jan 6, 2018)

Agree with Bill on going with the 1340GT, it is a pleasure to use, just puts a big grin on your face when using it. I would not tear into the wiring, as you can do a simple VFD conversion and use the contactors to switch the VFD inputs. Whole process does not take very long, the primary cost is the VFD and enclosure. I sidestepped that and put my VFD in the headstock cabinet, but most people use a separate VFD cabinet. Probably would have gone that route had I known more at the time, but different options.


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## SSage (Jan 14, 2018)

I got the PM1236 preferred package, cast stands and the PM BXA master turning/boring tool set. It does everything I need, 36" centers is more than my projects require. So, think about what you want to do and go up one size! I started out wanting a 11x27 LB machine, then I figured a 12x28 was a little nicer. I stopped looking once I wanted a 12x36. This forum can get you spending more and more in no time flat. 

I figured the 1236 steps you up to a foot brake, flood coolant, more threading choices etc. Its a nice value in the size. I've been using the PM carbide tooling and so far its been fine. I'm going to try the brand name inserts soon, I've just about worn out the included CCMT.


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## Fallon (Jan 14, 2018)

I pinged the PM guys & my 1340gt should be shipping this week. They were still working on installing the DRO last week.

Ran 10-3 mc cable across the shop today to a junction box. Need to grab a 30@ (2hp) disconnect here in the next few days. Probably get a fused one and put 15@ slow blow fuses in it. Figure 30@ worth of cable would eliminate any voltage drop issues & let me run a mill or CnC router off the same circuit if I get around to one of those next.

Any recommendations for starter HSS tooling? Was thinking about the Grizly 3/8" pre-ground set. I'm sure I'll be able to grind my own, but figure I should start with a pre-ground set for a baseline to learn from. I have the PM carbide insert tooling comming, but hear HSS is going to be a little more forgiving as I re-learn machining stuff, for the little bit I did a few decades ago.

As I can easily move the pallet around, gonna wait until I get it to figure out the tractor & pallet jack vs. engine hoist in place assembly method.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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