# Why We Still Buy Cheap Tools



## Robert LaLonde (Jan 19, 2018)

I suspect if a cheap tool was $5, a decent tool was $8, and top of the line tool was $10 most of use would buy the decent tool or the top of the line tool. 

However when you add a couple dollars it starts to change things.  500/800/1000.  That's moola for most folks.  Now if it was 500/503/505.... LOL  

I suspect if a cheap tool was $5, a decent tool was $8, and top of the line tool was $10 most of use would buy the decent tool or the top of the line tool. Well if we needed just one anyway.  How about if you need a set of 25.  125 vs 250 starts to look like the middle example.  ​
You can argue about how much is a lot of money, but the fact is its different from one person to the next based on a variety of concerns.  ​
The other side of it is does a Snap-On tool really justify its price? Sure its got a great warranty if you can catch the truck, but they still break.  ​


----------



## chips&more (Jan 19, 2018)

I can patiently wait my turn when at the flea market or similar and get the top of the line stuff at next to nothing prices. And I tried once to replace a broken Snap On ratchet. Found the truck, the guy said I was not on his route/a client so no deal. Never tried again with any Snap On stuff, left a bad taste in my mouth. I like their stock(SNA) though!


----------



## RandyM (Jan 19, 2018)

chips&more said:


> I can patiently wait my turn when at the flea market or similar and get the top of the line stuff at next to nothing prices. And* I tried once to replace a broken Snap On ratchet. Found the truck, the guy said I was not on his route/a client so no deal.* Never tried again with any Snap On stuff, left a bad taste in my mouth. I like their stock(SNA) though!



That may have been that dealers choice. The company policy may be different. I believe those guys own their truck and the tools on it.


----------



## Groundhog (Jan 19, 2018)

I buy cheap tools - small tools at least - because anymore that is all that is available locally. Even big items - lathes, mills, etc. seem to only be available in cheap (overseas) versions and very high priced models meant for large scale production. I understand why that is, but it still doesn't leave a lot of options sometimes. You can't always find good used either.


----------



## Michaelp631 (Jan 19, 2018)

Hand tools- I buy good used American or German. I buy new American IF AVAILABLE (which is not often). 
I do a lot of wiring. There is a certain pleasure holding and using a tool that works nicely, like Knipex or Klein. 
I am not impressed with current Snap On. I bought a pliers, and it lacks the heft that is needed to persuade stuff to come off.
Channel Locks often work better.

Power tools, for the most part, only Chinese is sold anymore. I buy DeWalt or Bosch for miter saws or power drills. 
The quality of those brands is pretty good.
I bought a Bostitch pancake compressor to use a nail gun. You have to be discriminating.

Large machine tools, like lathes, I buy used American, BUT they often need a lot of work, and the issue is, do I want to work to restore them or use them to make stuff. Chinese is getting better, and it's often almost ready to use, so I'm starting to think it's the way to go. There is good Chinese and not so good. If you get good Chinese, you have a decent experience.


----------



## BGHansen (Jan 19, 2018)

I have a mix like I'm sure most folks do.  If it gets heavy use, I buy quality.  One time use, low cost.

Bruce


----------



## Nogoingback (Jan 19, 2018)

chips&more said:


> I can patiently wait my turn when at the flea market or similar and get the top of the line stuff at next to nothing prices. And I tried once to replace a broken Snap On ratchet. Found the truck, the guy said I was not on his route/a client so no deal. Never tried again with any Snap On stuff, left a bad taste in my mouth. I like their stock(SNA) though!




If that's what Snap-On has become, then they aren't worth it.  They didn't used to be like that.  I worked on cars in a small shop in the
1970's and bought some Snap-on stuff including  three  3/8" ratchets.  About fifteen years ago I started to have a problem with the
pawl inside one of them so I hauled them over to a Snap-on truck to buy some rebuild kits.  The dealer looked them over, threw all
three in a barrel and handed me three new ratchets.  It was that level of customer service that make Snap-on such a good company.
And, at least in those days, the tools really were great quality.  Would I buy them now?  No, because I don't use them for a living, but
I won't buy the garbage Chinese stuff either.


----------



## blue_luke (Jan 19, 2018)

What I find nowadays is a lack of 'mid line' quality sort of tools.
When I got about 14 years old, on my birthday my dad bought a small steel tool chest and stuffed it with 'mid-Quality' basic tools. Screwdrivers set, pliers set, a ball peen and a carpenter's hammer, a square, a small level, some files etc...
This was the greatest gift my dad ever gave me. Now 50 years later, I still have the toolbox, with the original tools, in still a very usable state, and full of crap ****ty cheap tools that you get nowadays!
I find that these days, you can find only the best or the ugliest. I whish the mentality of providing good service and good tools at a price that make sense to a sunday mechanics or cabinet maker came back.
If I am a pro, earning my living from my tools, I will not llok at the cost. 
As a week end warrior, I want something that will works when I need it and perform.
I think there should be a law as to how cheap (bad) you can make a screw driver or a pair of pliers!

Luc


----------



## Eddyde (Jan 19, 2018)

The "Big Box" brands like Husky and Kolbalt have lifetime warrantees. I did return a couple of screwdrivers that striped out and they did indeed replace them.


----------



## Mitch Alsup (Jan 19, 2018)

When faced with this myself 6-odd months ago, I was faced with a set (5) indexable 16mm lathe tool holders with 30 inserts for a total of $55 versus a single Kennametal tool at $65 and inserts at $8-$10 each. So, I bought the cheapo set, so far they have performed well, although I have not put large stresses on any of them. I got 3 sets of inserts with different nose radii almost as an experiment to see how the different radii would hold up and which ones produce good finishes on my equipment. 

This indexable set completely replaced the 40 carbide tipped (C2 C6) chinese set that cost all of $30. None of which had done anything wrong, got worn out, or chipped.

If I was using the lathe 5 days a week for 4 hours a day, I might have a different opinion, but as it is, every couple of days I spin off 1 or 2 parts and go back to milling parts for my telescope.

As to tool quality itself, I am not in a position to say. I have several 3/8ths chinese end mills, a couple Taiwanese 3/8ths end mills, and a dozen <reground> made in America 3/8ths end mills. In the uses I have put these, they all seem to chip the leading edge at about the same rate: which is never when milling 6061T6 and anytime they want when milling mild steel. So, from my point of view, I can't tell, at least not yet.


----------



## westerner (Jan 19, 2018)

I have been a professional mechanic for 20 years, and an amatuer one for 20 years previous. I have purchased ONE Snap-on tool (7mm 1/4 drive wobbly, $36) that I needed NOW. The local dealer is 'less than accomodating'. The Craftsman warranty is identical, price not so. I have thousands of dollars of Cornwell tools that have held up just fine, and THAT dealer is VERY accomodating. Aint needed any more warranty from him than Craftsman, btw. I believe many Snap-On tools are sold to bolster the mechanic's SELF image. Walk on a truck, and price a box. Bring your own chair, AND your own blood pressure meds.


----------



## savarin (Jan 19, 2018)

Mitch Alsup said:


> but as it is, every couple of days I spin off 1 or 2 parts and go back to milling parts for my telescope.



Mitch, how about some pics of the scope your building. Pretty pretty please. 
or start a project of it in here
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/members-projects-post-your-projects-here.193/


----------



## woodchucker (Jan 19, 2018)

westerner said:


> I have been a professional mechanic for 20 years, and an amatuer one for 20 years previous. I have purchased ONE Snap-on tool (7mm 1/4 drive wobbly, $36) that I needed NOW. The local dealer is 'less than accomodating'. The Craftsman warranty is identical, price not so. I have thousands of dollars of Cornwell tools that have held up just fine, and THAT dealer is VERY accomodating. Aint needed any more warranty from him than Craftsman, btw. I believe many Snap-On tools are sold to bolster the mechanic's SELF image. Walk on a truck, and price a box. Bring your own chair, AND your own blood pressure meds.


Exactly. My nephew is a mechanic and put over 2500 down for a box. That same box would be $399 from HF. And every bit as good. He wouldn't even consider the HF. He says the Snap on guy comes to him. I told him, that HF ships... it comes to you. Get it.. It's a prestige thing.


----------



## kd4gij (Jan 19, 2018)

About 15 years ago I had a busted Snap-on screw driver that was my dad's. There was a Snap-on warehouse in my town, Took it in for repair and was told no receipt no deal. Haven't spent a dime on Snap-on sense.


----------



## 3strucking (Jan 19, 2018)

I have a lot of Mac tools and a large Mac cabinet, a few snap on that I got free, but its hard to beat Cornwell for the money.


----------



## NavyShooter (Jan 19, 2018)

I have used expensive (read Snap-on and Gray) tools at work. 

I have Mastercraft at home.  (Mostly.)

I am not willing to pay the premium for a Snap-on socket set for my garage when, in 25 years of trying, I have yet to break any of the Mastercraft (Canadian Tire) tools.  I've LOST them, so my socket set in the garage is only about 90% complete, but I've never broken one.

With that in mind, why would I pay the premium?

At work, the Gray/Snap-on stuff is vital, and in some cases mandated with the equipment we work on.  I once re-assembled the IMU on a Mark 29 Gyrocompass, swapping out the slip-ring assembly (at sea) and the tools for that were....selected and provided by Sperry in an accountable tool-box.

To date, I've never done work of that precision in my home shop.

As it was explained to me, installing the Gyros in the IMU was even MORE precise...lint free cloth, special cleaning solvents on all mating surfaces...when the Gyro is spinning at 72,000 RPM, leaving the oil from a fingerprint on the mating surface would throw off the balance.

When I lose a few more sockets from my home set, I'll go buy another complete set and transition this one on to my son for his tool collection.


----------



## Nogoingback (Jan 19, 2018)

woodchucker said:


> Exactly. My nephew is a mechanic and put over 2500 down for a box. That same box would be $399 from HF. And every bit as good. He wouldn't even consider the HF. He says the Snap on guy comes to him. I told him, that HF ships... it comes to you. Get it.. It's a prestige thing.



I don't understand how people can spend as much as a car on a toolbox.  I have some old Craftsman boxes that I've had for 40 years or
so and they still do the job.  A few years back I bought one of he 44" HF boxes (after looking it over pretty carefully).  I think it's comparable
to my Craftsman boxes and yes, it was less than $400.00. I'd rather spend the money on tools.

My hand tools are a pretty motley collection including some Snap-On, a bunch of old Craftsman stuff, and a bunch of other odds and ends
that I've accumulated over the years.  Come to think of it, I think the only tool I've just plain broken was a 12mm Craftsman socket some
time last year.  I replaced it with a Proto, which is what I usually buy if I need something.


----------



## EmilioG (Jan 19, 2018)

Snap on makes a lot of great tools that are really better than most in some categories, but others are not and it's just a Snap On name on a mediocre tool that is over priced.  Snap On is really for pros that wrench for a living, but for serious DIY'ers, they can be amazing. Especially for auto work.

I do my research. and buy accordingly.   99% of my tools are top quality and many have been acquired through patience and good bargaining.
There are lot's of good deals to be found out there, so why buy cheap tools that only frustrate or just don't last?


----------



## dlane (Jan 19, 2018)

Support communist,  ?


----------



## Bi11Hudson (Jan 20, 2018)

I'm an electrician by profession rather than a mechanic so my thoughts are biased in that direction. When working with electrical equipment, it's Kleins and my Simpson 260(S-4) ...... or nothing. For mechanical work it is Craftsman, or nowadays Proto, when Sears started competing with K-mart, (I think it was a merger.....) I quit using them.

I can tell you, there is a difference between Taiwan and mainland Chinese. I have a Grizzly lathe I bought when I first started learning machine work. A G1550. Taiwan.... The current model is G4000, from PRC. A world of difference, and a radical price difference. I suspect why they changed models. Bottom line here, a 1952(?) Craftsman 12x36 is what I use day to day doing armature repair. It is sloppy (read loose) but is much more stable.

For most other day to day work, is is whatever I can lay my hands on. If it doesn't last, well, that's when I look for good stuff. If I stumble onto something good at the flea market or pawn shop, I'll grab it and give away the cheap one. But even the cheap ones are known brands most times. Milwaukee and Porter Cable power tools are the norm in my shop. HF may be OK but I don't like their power cords or switches. B&D and Skil are pretty good, once you get above the consumer level. DeWalt used to be very good, but today is a fancy B&D in a yellow case.

I do recall the old time millwright suppliers tool brands and when I find one I grab it. There was one (Armstrong?) that didn't have a warranty simply because it didn't need it. You would break a Grade 8 bolt before you bend the wrench. Those days are long gone though. I have to grab them when I find them.

Snap On? As good as a Stanley with a different brand name is about it. In my line, no better than Proto, which is in reality a Stanley product. A Klein wire pliers(?) I use has been around 30+ years and still will cut a hair. I couldn't ask for better than that.

For what it's worth here, I have been retired for several years. And have a good memory still...... For good tools.


----------



## Groundhog (Jan 20, 2018)

Tool companies are bought and sold so often now that it is hard to keep up. Many tools that were known for their quality several years ago are now owned by companies that care only for the bottom line. So some brands of tools that you could buy with confidence 10 years ago are pretty much junk now.
Why is it that with the advance technology (better metals, better manufacturing processes, etc.) there are no better tools, just ones made cheaper?
https://www.youtube.com/user/arduinoversusevil/playlists does a lot of unsponsored and unbiased tool tests. If you haven't checked his videos out you might want to. Some profanity though.


----------



## magicniner (Jan 20, 2018)

In general I buy what I need when I need it and buy the best quality I can, but there are many variables at work in tool acquisition ;-) 

If the need isn't pressing and I want a particular item I'll save up rather than buy cheap. 

While I'm saving for something I also shop around and search in case something comes up second hand at the right price, my Quick and Integi cut knurling tools came up that way, last week I picked up an as new 100Kg Lift Trolley for 1/4 of it's retail price from a business that had upgraded their lifting equipment. 

If I see something interesting that I like and, based on the current contents of my tool fund, is affordable and might come in handy then I'll buy it, my Diatest bore gauging kits and Coventry die heads arrived via this route when I was invited to explore the nether regions of an engineering tool shop which was closing. 



Bob La Londe said:


> The other side of it is does a Snap-On tool really justify its price? Sure its got a great warranty if you can catch the truck, but they still break.



I spent years as a dealership panel beater and the only time I broke Snap-On tools was when I knew I was abusing them to get a job done quickly and where I should have gone another route, that was the 80s and quality may have changed but I still keep an eye out for good condition second hand Snap On from "back in the day", it even feels nice ;-)


----------



## DougD (Jan 20, 2018)

I believe Snap-on, Mac, Cornwell, add considerably for the convenience of them coming to you so you don't have to shop evenings/weekends for tools.  Plus over the years the status of "Snap-on".  I have turned in a few Craftsman tools for warranty and never had a question.  I will pick up the best used if found at flea mkt, auction, or pawnshop.  If I have an application for a tool I don't have and it is a one-time or limited use I will buy cheap, when/if it breaks I'll replace it with the better. If it will be for on-going use then I will buy the better.
dd


----------



## kvt (Jan 20, 2018)

I have a full mix of tools.  Some that I have had since before graduating high school.   Craftsman got to be a pain to get replaced and the replacements did not seem to hold up that well,   Snap-on   Hard to find a dealer,   Proto have not seen any dealers in my area,   SK same problem.   All around me are selling the cheap stuff.   I have a section of the tool box for the broken higher priced stuff.   After a big lot of my tools were stolen about 15 year ago,   I replaced those with A mix of what I though was good quality lifetime warrantee stuff, Found it does not do any better than some of the cheaper stuff, and some times the cheaper stuff had a better hand feel and worked just as well.    One of the things I have come to appreciate is how a tool feels when using it,    Sharp boxy edges or smooth rounded etc.    but all in all it is almost like a C_____ shoot as to what you get even from the big name tools.


----------



## C-Bag (Jan 20, 2018)

Before I became a mechanic I worked out of my dad's part Craftsman the rest mish mash box at home. I don't know why but I never did like the feel of Craftsman wrenches. The first two jobs I had rebuilding VW engines had tools so I used a lot of different brands and not until I bought my first Proto mechanic set in '74 did I actually like the wrenches. It's a standard set because I was working as a AG mechanic/fabricator/welder and there was two sets, normal length and heft and a short thinner set of wrenches. Still have the whole set and never broke anything but got a couple never returned or lost. When you make a living with tools it makes a difference and they have become like cherished old friends that have gotten me out of many a scrape.

When I worked at a dealership there was an old guy who came around in a small van and sold good tools like S&K, Thorsen and others along with specialty tools. I bought specific sets from him to get by. Same with MAC and Snap-On. So my main box is all Proto, Mac and Snap-On. Each set like my metric wrenches (MAC) or 1/4" drive (Snap-On) were because the set was nicer and solved a problem I kept running into. Learned how a good socket is broached inside made all the difference in some jobs.

When I quit being a car mech and went to packing equipment I bought all HF. I still used some things like my Snap-On screw drivers, dead blow steel hammer and Proto heel bar, but almost everything else didn't have to be good or special. And I went from a huge tamale cart to a 50lb box that could go on a plane for when we did installs. Most of the HF's were ground on, bent, modified and mangled. I'd never do that with my Proto or Mac(only have a couple of special Snap-On wrenches). Never have broken a HF and don't miss it when it drops down in a black hole either. 

I've been out of touch with Snap-On for a while and the only tool truck I see is a Matco guy who lives close. But I had a problem with the plastic coating on my dead blow hammer. It got brittle and just cracked and fell off during use. I emailed them with a pic and they told me to destroy the old hammer(yeah right and sent me a new one. It's a very nice steel dead blow with two handles built in so you can choke up on it for those tight spots. I don't know if they have me on record somewhere or what, but I dealt with several different Snap-On dealers and they just asked me the approximate time and where and sent me a new one.


----------



## projectnut (Jan 20, 2018)

I was a repair shop owner and mechanic for over 20 years, from the late 1960’s through the late 1980’s.  I started with Craftsman tools, mainly because of the price and availability.  There was a Sears store in our town, but Snap On tool dealers were few and far between.  The Craftsman tools worked fine on cars of that era mainly because room was plentiful under the hood.

As time went on the cars got smaller and smaller.  As a result, the once plentiful space was now gone.  It became more and more difficult to get the bulky Craftsman wrenches into the tight spots.  Add to that all repairs were made on a flat rate basis and it was time to find a better alternative.

In the early 1970’s a Snap On dealer came by the shop and tried to interest me in some new tools.  They looked great, but were EXPENSIVE.  I resisted for several months.  Finally, he gave me a few wrenches.  He told me to “try them out”.  He said he’s stop back in a few weeks to see what I thought of them.

I tried them as requested, and what a difference.  The Snap On tools had a much thinner profile, a better angle of the business end to handle arrangement, and a better over all feel in the hand.  The most amazing part is that they easily fit in places the Craftsman tools couldn’t go.  They turned what was a 3-hour job into a 1-hour job.  They were also much easier on the hands.  I became a convert.  I took most my Craftsman tools to the house, and replaced them with Snap On.  

Over the years I spent thousands of dollars on Snap On tools and never regretted it.  Very few have been replaced due to wear or damage.  The biggest replacement cost was due to theft.  When time is money quality tools make the difference between making money and going broke.   

In the early 1980’s Mac and Matco came on the scene.  They were what I would consider the mid-price contenders.  At the time they were better than Craftsman but not quite the quality of Snap On.  They were however appealing in that their prices were significantly less than Snap On.  I did purchase some things from both of the new competitors and by in large found they were of acceptable quality.  The majority of the tools I bought in that time period are nearing 50 years old and are still in excellent condition.

I doubt that anyone other than a professional that uses their hand tools 50+ hours a week would benefit from the difference in form and quality between the current Snap On and Craftsman tools.  Craftsman and other lower price tool manufacturers have upped their game to the point that they are more than sufficient for the shade tree mechanic, casual user, and hobbyist.  I haven’t purchased a Snap On tool since the late 1980’s.  Again mostly because of price, and the fact that I don’t think there would be any physical advantage as to the difference in construction for what they are used for today.

The truth be known I think that the vast majority of the tools I own will survive in fine working condition long after I’m gone.


----------



## wrmiller (Jan 20, 2018)

I buy the tool that fits the need/requirement. Sometimes that's a high-end tool, sometimes not. When a cheap(er) pair of pliers will work, why waste money where I don't need to? To brag about the labels in my tool box? Hardly.


----------



## toploader (Jan 20, 2018)

chips&more said:


> I can patiently wait my turn when at the flea market or similar and get the top of the line stuff at next to nothing prices. And I tried once to replace a broken Snap On ratchet. Found the truck, the guy said I was not on his route/a client so no deal. Never tried again with any Snap On stuff, left a bad taste in my mouth. I like their stock(SNA) though!



Almost identical experience I had with snap-on tools.  I currently don't own anything snap-on makes.  I purchase craftsman tools because, they honor their product replacement guarantee.


----------



## Mitch Alsup (Jan 20, 2018)

savarin said:


> Mitch, how about some pics of the scope your building. Pretty pretty please.
> or start a project of it in here
> https://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/members-projects-post-your-projects-here.193/



Here is a picture of the mirror cell:




The 3 beams have been dynamically balanced and ride of ball bearings, the contact on the back side of the mirror is a miniature ball tansfer for low friction.

Next is a picture of the Truss assembly sitting on the mirror cell:


----------



## magicniner (Jan 20, 2018)

chips&more said:


> And I tried once to replace a broken Snap On ratchet. Found the truck, the guy said I was not on his route/a client so no deal. Never tried again with any Snap On stuff, left a bad taste in my mouth. I like their stock(SNA) though!



Here in England I flagged down a rep I'd never met before for my last replacement under warranty, no problems.


----------



## chips&more (Jan 20, 2018)

toploader said:


> Almost identical experience I had with snap-on tools.  I currently don't own anything snap-on makes.  I purchase craftsman tools because, they honor their product replacement guarantee.


So sorry to hear! I remember also having a heck of a time finding the truck. Dragged that ratchet around in my truck for a year till I spotted a truck, LOL. I still use Snap On though, just not in the mood to return anything. You are correct, Craftsman is a lot easier to return. You can even go to ACE Hardware.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Jan 20, 2018)

Eddyde said:


> The "Big Box" brands like Husky and Kolbalt have lifetime warrantees. I did return a couple of screwdrivers that striped out and they did indeed replace them.



HF now gives a lifetime warranty on their hand tools too.


----------



## silence dogood (Jan 20, 2018)

The tool depends on what you are going to do.  When I worked on electronic organs and tuned pianos. I bought the best tools and test equipment that I could afford.  When you are a hundred miles away from your shop in a customers home, you can not afford a tool break or a meter go bad.  A few years ago I had to drill some holes in a concrete wall in my home.  Renting a rotary hammer would cost me about  100 bucks a day.  Harbor Freight had one for sale at the same price.  Worked just fine, and I have used it on other jobs since then.  If it broke right now, I'm still money ahead.


----------



## kvt (Jan 20, 2018)

silence dogood said:


> Renting a rotary hammer would cost me about 100 bucks a day. Harbor Freight had one for sale at the same price. Worked just fine, and I have used it on other jobs since then


Had the exact same problem,   had a 20 percent off on top it.   Thing is still working.   Have gone through several of their 4.5 angle grinders, and now purchase a porter cable one.   Twice as expensive but has lasted longer,  Another tool that has good feel is was some of the Proto lines back in the 70s,   And their were 2 dealers in town,  and both carried Proto, and SK tools.   Both would do warranty no problems if you broke something.   Closest Sears was in the next town and it was just a mail order place.   The closest place that would handle craftsman was over 100 miles away.   Snap-on would come to town about once a year,  same with Mac and Matco  So had to save things up.  for when they came.   Which was fun at times as some special tools came from each.      And some of those special tools were the worst tools they had.


----------



## 4GSR (Jan 21, 2018)

In my younger years, family working in a oilfield town in south Texas.  Used to go to town with grand dad.  He would make his rounds to the Wilson supply store, they would have J. H. Williams tool displays we used to drool over.  If course, Papa would not buy us anything.  Go to the auto parts store, there they had wall to wall tool displays of Proto tools.  Papa still wouldn't buy us anything.  Go to Gibson's discount store, he would let us buy a tool or two, obviously, about two grades down from the other brands at the other stores.
Fast forward about 45 years, Tried to buy every Craftsman tool known to exists over the years.  Got more tools now, than I did as a kid, and  what to do with!


----------

