# Bronze powder Epoxy slurry



## cathead (Feb 14, 2017)

I'm wondering if anyone has experimented with adding bronze to JB-Weld or similar and applied it to the worn 
surfaces of a saddle or possibly some other worn area.  One would have to really get the surfaces clean with solvents and rough it up I suppose so it would stay in place.  Then scrape it to fit.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 14, 2017)

I would first attempt scraping some of the dried mix on some cleaned up, old and oily scrap iron, to see how it scrapes, how it spots in, and if it flakes off where it tapers into the bare ways.  "A good test is better than 1000 'expert' opinions."  You would also learn how best to install it and rough it in while practicing on a test piece.

Edit:  Don't ruin your Monarch or Springfield doing an experiment...


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## tweinke (Feb 14, 2017)

Might be interesting to try. Do you think JB weld gets hard enough to work?


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## markba633csi (Feb 14, 2017)

I just made some filled JB weld with some steel filings. It's pretty darn hard. Have to cure it with heat (light bulb) to get best results.
Mark S.


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## Tozguy (Feb 14, 2017)

I'd have more confidence in a Loctite product for this approach. The JB weld jobs I have done were not for moving parts.


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## cathead (Feb 14, 2017)

I'm having second thoughts on using JB-Weld as a basis for a moving surface.  I see it contains some iron dust according
to the MSDS sheets.  A clear epoxy would be better since it would not have unwanted abrasives.  Another possibility might
be to use zinc powder as it has a very low coefficient of friction in oil. I even have some of that in a jar.  You are right Bob to 
do the experimenting on a test piece.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 14, 2017)

Why not use Rulon, Moglice, or some other material designed for the job?


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## cathead (Feb 14, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Why not use Rulon, Moglice, or some other material designed for the job?



Well, that has crossed my mind too.  As an experiment, it would be fun to try and see how well it works.  If no one ever tries this, 
we won't know will we?  I was looking at Turcite but it gets expensive to buy all the stuff you need for that process.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 14, 2017)

cathead said:


> Well, that has crossed my mind too.  As an experiment, it would be fun to try and see how well it works.  If no one ever tries this,
> we won't know will we?  I was looking at Turcite but it gets expensive to buy all the stuff you need for that process.


Indeed, the process is expensive, and the materials cannot be all that special...


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## vtcnc (Feb 14, 2017)

Do a Google search for Loctite Fixmaster Metal Rebuilding. Looks like putties and pourable liquid epoxies.


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## cathead (Feb 14, 2017)

vtcnc said:


> Do a Google search for Loctite Fixmaster Metal Rebuilding. Looks like putties and pourable liquid epoxies.



Thanks for posting Bryan.  This Fixmaster stuff contains iron powder so probably not as good as using bronze or zinc for a sliding
surface.  _It looks like I am going to have to mix up my own formula.        _


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## vtcnc (Feb 14, 2017)

cathead said:


> _It looks like I am going to have to mix up my own formula.        _



Now that's the spirit! Please share the recipe and results!


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## vtcnc (Feb 14, 2017)

Found one more option: http://www.devcon.com/products/products.cfm?brand=Devcon&family=Bronze Putty (BR)


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## cathead (Feb 14, 2017)

vtcnc said:


> Now that's the spirit! Please share the recipe and results!



I think the spirit is suffering in this country.  We are a country of texters and cell phone aficionados except for the 
few us us who spend time in the shop and actually accomplish something.  So hats off to all the doers in the world.  
Nobody makes gun powder out of pigeon krap any more or make their own soap.  Just order stuff on your smart fone
and have FedEx deliver it to your door.   Hey, that was fun!  I'm done with my rant now......


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## woodchucker (Feb 14, 2017)

I don't know why you need to fill. It must be really bad. But I would bet a braze would be way better than epoxy.   Silicone bronze maybe. The shaping after is the only issue. Your going to have to use die/mold making files to get into some spots.


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## 4GSR (Feb 14, 2017)

The problems with bronze fillers or even nickel-silver brazing up a surface, is it very hard to scrape and get good consistent markings. Brass or bronze is easier than nickel-silver is to scrape, both have issues though.  Myself, if the surfaces have deep gouges or like under the saddle on the lathe, heavy wear, I would suggest Moglice or the Devcon product over any special "brew" for filling in or building up surfaces. 

As for glue in strips like Rulon or Tercite, Think about Micarta.  That's what I grew up using on some of the machine rebuilds I worked on.  Lot cheaper, money wise!

 Ken


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## cathead (Feb 14, 2017)

4gsr said:


> The problems with bronze fillers or even nickel-silver brazing up a surface, is it very hard to scrape and get good consistent markings. Brass or bronze is easier than nickel-silver is to scrape, both have issues though.  Myself, if the surfaces have deep gouges or like under the saddle on the lathe, heavy wear, I would suggest Moglice or the Devcon product over any special "brew" for filling in or building up surfaces.
> 
> As for glue in strips like Rulon or Tercite, Think about Micarta.  That's what I grew up using on some of the machine rebuilds I worked on.  Lot cheaper, money wise!
> 
> Ken



I like that.  I will do some studying on Micarta.  Thanks, Ken.


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## cathead (Feb 14, 2017)

woochucker said:


> I don't know why you need to fill. It must be really bad. But I would bet a braze would be way better than epoxy.   Silicone bronze maybe. The shaping after is the only issue. Your going to have to use die/mold making files to get into some spots.


There is about 15 thousandths wear on the bed by the head stock so I figure the saddle would have about that much wear as well. 
I don't know if there is anyway to measure the wear on the saddle.  I guess there might be but I won't know until I rip it apart and
see what I can see...


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## vtcnc (Feb 14, 2017)

cathead said:


> I think the spirit is suffering in this country.  We are a country of texters and cell phone aficionados except for the
> few us us who spend time in the shop and actually accomplish something.  So hats off to all the doers in the world.
> Nobody makes gun powder out of pigeon krap any more or make their own soap.  Just order stuff on your smart fone
> and have FedEx deliver it to your door.   Hey, that was fun!  I'm done with my rant now......



Now I get where you are coming from...but I'm also firm believer in not reinventing the wheel! I did a little more research on the Devcon website tonight, looks like they have another product that is designed for high wear resistance and low friction = they specifically call out lathe machine beds in the product description. If you come up with a home brew recipe for the equivalent of this, I'm all ears!

Here is the link: Devcon Wear Resistant Putty (WR-2) 

Sorry I didn't find it earlier!


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## TakeDeadAim (Feb 15, 2017)

cathead said:


> Well, that has crossed my mind too.  As an experiment, it would be fun to try and see how well it works.  If no one ever tries this,
> we won't know will we?  I was looking at Turcite but it gets expensive to buy all the stuff you need for that process.



It has been tried and failed.  Moglice is the product with which I have seen the best success provided the Mfg. instruction are followed 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cathead (Feb 15, 2017)

Thank you all for weighing in on the subject.  I'm sure that if I have to do some fill in work on the saddle that there are
several ways to go about it successfully.  I'm somewhat concerned about saddle wear because I see the rack has been
shimmed.  I have had the saddle off a few years ago and it isn't seriously grooved so maybe could just scrape it flat and
do some flaking.  I'm certainly not an expert on this subject and realize that some of you are well experienced at it.  
I can see that this refurbishment project will take a while.  If I scrape and flake,  will it matter if the saddle ends up .030 inch
lower than it was in new condition?  My thought is that it probably wouldn't matter as long as I get the ways straight and 
saddle fitting properly.  Is there a good reason to fill in with one of these surfacing materials so the saddle is raised back up
to where it was when new?  Will it have better sliding properties?  It's a pretty old lathe so not expecting perfection, I just
want to make improvements where reasonably possible.  View media item 95777 
Here's a photo of the Springfield Ideal Lathe, vintage probably 1930's I would guess...


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## vtcnc (Feb 15, 2017)

TakeDeadAim said:


> It has been tried and failed.  Moglice is the product with which I have seen the best success provided the Mfg. instruction are followed
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Was taking a look at a thread on another forum and the consensus over there is the same: Moglice seems to be the preferred material in the work of machine tool rebuilding.


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## 4GSR (Feb 15, 2017)

cathead,

There is nothing wrong with re scraping or machining the bed straight and flat again and likewise with the saddle.  As long as you realize you have to drop the rack and leadscrew and feed rod to compensate for the materials removed from each.  And I believe you have already mentioned that.  There are several articles out there on applying and the use of Moglice on the saddle and other types of slides.  Go here for more details on Moglice

http://www.moglice.com/

Here is my thread on the application and use of Moglice.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...tion/application-moglice-saddle-lathe-305535/

If you have time to read up on Moglice, there are 22 pages of results using the word "Moglice" on their site.  Wish we had that much information available to us here on our site.

Ken


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## cathead (Feb 15, 2017)

4gsr said:


> cathead,
> 
> There is nothing wrong with re scraping or machining the bed straight and flat again and likewise with the saddle.  As long as you realize you have to drop the rack and leadscrew and feed rod to compensate for the materials removed from each.  And I believe you have already mentioned that.  There are several articles out there on applying and the use of Moglice on the saddle and other types of slides.  Go here for more details on Moglice
> 
> ...




OK, I think I have a fairly good understanding now. I will research"Moglice".   Thanks Ken.


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## Douglasr (Feb 18, 2017)

Look up Belzona supermetal. We use it at work to fill imperfections before lathe and or mill work. Much like JBweld on steroids! Hard as a rock when cured. Check it out


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## Bob Korves (Feb 18, 2017)

Douglasr said:


> Look up Belzona supermetal. We use it at work to fill imperfections before lathe and or mill work. Much like JBweld on steroids! Hard as a rock when cured. Check it out


I looked at their site and got more and more excited, until I found that the smallest size sold is 1 kg (2.2 lb.) and ~$100.00.  I would need to be a cat and have nine lives for that to make sense, for me.  Your mileage may vary...


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## Highsider (Feb 18, 2017)

Whatever product one chooses for this kind of operation, grab a die grinder and undercut the edges of the low spot right out to the edges of the good surface.    It's necessary to avoid problems with a feather edge and the fill will be much more stable.


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## Ebel440 (Feb 18, 2017)

There's a home made version of moglice I found. Think it was epoxy resin powdered bronze,graphite, aluminum, some type of molybdenum and zeospheres? I think the zeospheres are some type of epoxy filler. Possibly like glass microballons which I wouldn't think would be a good idea. Could try googling" do it yourself  moglice" I thinks that's what I searched.


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## cathead (Feb 18, 2017)

Ebel440 said:


> There's a home made version of moglice I found. Think it was epoxy resin powdered bronze,graphite, aluminum, some type of molybdenum and zeospheres? I think the zeospheres are some type of epoxy filler. Possibly like glass microballons which I wouldn't think would be a good idea. Could try googling" do it yourself  moglice" I thinks that's what I searched.



Yes, Thanks.  I will check into that.  Today I took the free play out of my cross feed by pouring molten leaded babbitt into 
cross feed screw threads.  It took away about 80% of the lost motion at least for now.  I expect I will have to make further repairs
eventually, probably a Moglice repair...


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## Ebel440 (Feb 18, 2017)

I actually just looked it up again and had better results using "homemade moglice"seems I'd forgotten the recipe included powdered Teflon and some use hexagonal boron nitride


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## mws (Feb 20, 2017)

At the risk of getting myself in trouble here but...  I cringe when I read about using various filler materials embedded in magical compounds to produce bearing surfaces.  The idea that two materials bearing on each other, regardless of their lubricious properties is completely antithetical to what should be accomplished. To wit, creating as large as possible parallel (congruent for cylinders) planes which glide on a thin film of lubricant.  The solution to that has historically been scraping to produce a flat plane as well as the numerous pockets to retain oil. Only when the parts cease to move should they settle into contact. The instant they move, those pockets should deliver oil between the surfaces and NO contact should exist. 
That being said, the hardness of the surface, ie: cast iron, epoxy, etc, should be such to resist embedding of particulates, resulting in a lapping surface.  If you examine the various formulations of Turcite or Rulon, or even Moglice, these are relatively soft materials but resist embedding.  Many claims are made for various products but I've seldom seen thorough engineering studies (the kind with real numbers) on their long term functionality.  Moglice is probably the best in terms of publishing some hard data on their product's characteristics.  
Moglice also suggests a minimum thickness to be applied. This makes sense to me as a varied surface of different materials seems problematic to me, but I conjecture. I would think spot applications of some product may suffice to prevent loss of lubrication through some gouge or clearance, but would not likely produce a bearing surface of desirable quality. 
I have rebuilt a number of small machine ways, and taken Richard King's class.  Having only used turcite once on a grinder bed I'm certainly no expert. But what experience I have has shown me that the old rules are not ameliorated by modern magic elixirs and synthetics.  Those rules, as stated earlier, are simple. Scraped parallel planes, lots of little contact points and oil retention pockets. Preventing surface to surface contact is paramount! 
Mark S.


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## EmilioG (Mar 23, 2017)

I've done this many times using clear polyester resin and 300 mesh fine bronze powder.
You could try using 5 minute epoxy or West systems epoxy, but the resin must be clear. JB Weld is opaque and will not
give you a true bronze look. The more bronze powder that you load into the resin the better. Build a clay dam because the material will run.,
or make a mold from GE clear silicone.


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## Tozguy (Mar 24, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> I looked at their site and got more and more excited, until I found that the smallest size sold is 1 kg (2.2 lb.) and ~$100.00.  I would need to be a cat and have nine lives for that to make sense, for me.  Your mileage may vary...



In my experience, industrial stuff works better than hobby stuff. I am all for experimenting if that is the objective in itself. But if the objective is to make the best repair possible then trying to outsmart the 'pros' might not get you there. Belzona must be used a lot if it only sells in large formats. Is it a 'cry once' opportunity?


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## Tozguy (Mar 24, 2017)

Douglasr said:


> Look up Belzona supermetal. We use it at work to fill imperfections before lathe and or mill work. Much like JBweld on steroids! Hard as a rock when cured. Check it out


It sounds like it cuts well. Any more you can tell us about it?


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