# What am I inhaling at the lathe?



## tmenyc (Sep 8, 2021)

I've noticed that after a session at my Logan I'm often hoarse for some hours. The realization of this didn't hit me for too long because I often am only turning delrin or ebonite rather than brass or steel.  But, this past weekend I wore my 3M mask, normally used for grinding, for a longish session with 12L14, and was not hoarse afterwards. 
I could not find anything in these pages, or anywhere else, relating to this. Is the cause (I hope) the smoke from the oil burning off? I usually use 10W40 for a turning lubricant, and as little as possible, a quick dab with a brush. Or is it (hoping not...) the lead or other components of the 12L14? 

My lathe is in a 10x11 apartment bedroom that is my shop,  but I usually run the AC or fan to bring in air when working in there. It's not an exhaust fan, however. I do recognize that the setting is probably inappropriate for some of the work I do in there in my fountain pen restoration work, but it's the best I can do. Luckily, my kids are long gone (the shop was their bedroom), and my wife is a painter/printmaker, so accustomed to the use of solvents and chemicals. 

Curious to learn ... thanks!
Tim


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## Winegrower (Sep 8, 2021)

This is a good topic.   I have had a big negative reaction to the smoke from TapMagic, so I don't use that any more.   I switched to Anchor Lube and installed a fan on the carriage.   I've had no recurrences since.


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## jmkasunich (Sep 8, 2021)

You write "only turning delrin or ebonite rather than brass or steel" as if those materials are safer than metals.  I think the opposite is true.  Metals rarely produce vapors when cut dry, but plastics certainly do.  And those vapors might not be good for you.


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## markba633csi (Sep 8, 2021)

It's possible you are allergic to some of those plastics


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## francist (Sep 8, 2021)

There are others here way more savvy on the chemical make ups than I but I’d be looking at the ebonite and/or your choice of cutting oil as likely contributors. The cutting fluid will be cheapest thing to switch out and see if it makes a difference. I used to use Tapmatic Gold on the lathe and it worked but smoked like crazy so I switched to Masters. Still some smoke but not as bad, and I’m sure there are others that make even less. But as we know, just because we can’t see something doesn’t mean we’re breathing clean air.

And as Mark suggests, maybe a sensitivity has developed over time. We get old and our bodies not so tolerant of what we used to throw at them them we were younger.

-frank


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## SPICEMAN (Sep 8, 2021)

I bought what is called a SMOKE EATER.  They used to be common in bars and public places when smokers were still non-enemies.  They are designed to pull micro particles out of a large room, pretty much the same thing use for clean rooms.  You can find used ones popping up at auctions for closed bars, restaurants, wood shops, and places doing clean work or look in woodworker supply catalogs (SHOP-FOX  and Grizzley had sold them)  Size about 3ft x 1ft x 2ft.  
Or if you have ducted heat/cool then many mfrs make a return hepa/particulate filter.  I bought a brand new Lenox unit for about 120 but have not used it as I went mini-split in the shop.


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## Lo-Fi (Sep 8, 2021)

tmenyc said:


> usually use 10W40 for a turning lubricant, and as little as possible, a quick dab with a brush.


Motor oil is not cutting lubricant. It's full of all kinds of weird additives and detergents and designed to burn, not to be vaporised and inhaled. This is why crank cases are not vented to atmosphere and the fumes from which are consumed by the engine intake to be burned. You're more likely suffering from that than anything else.


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## FOMOGO (Sep 8, 2021)

Usually, when I "inhale", I refrain from running potentially dangerous machinery. Mike


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## tmenyc (Sep 8, 2021)

Well, this is interesting...many thanks for the good responses so far. I'll narrow it down a little:
1) I don't react when cutting delrin or ebonite. Good thing, too, since fabricating parts in ebonite is why I got the lathe to begin with. teh delrin is mostly prototyping; the steel and brass mostly making specialty tools. 
2) No ducted air: it's a 1938 apartment building, radiator heat from NYC steam, cool from window AC or open window over courtyard.
3) I never knew any of that about motor oil!  I use it to lube the lathe (but not the ways, don't worry...) and for cutting. Happy to change.
I think I may have oil that does not have detergent, can check.
4) Mike, I wish I could hold my breath that long...

thanks, this is really helpful.
Tim


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## derfatdutchman (Sep 8, 2021)

When you say 3M mask I'm guessing you mean a cartridge type respirator. When was the last time you changed the cartridges and do you have the correct cartridges installed? Having cartridges for organic vapors, cleaning, painting fumes won't give you the level of protection you need if you being more exposed to fine airborne particulates.


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## tmenyc (Sep 8, 2021)

I don't remember which carts I have, but did just change them. I'll post the mask and cartridges here this evening when back home.


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## Lo-Fi (Sep 8, 2021)

It's probably fine for lube, but there are oils that are specifically formulated for machine tools and will be specified by the manufacturer. 
Proper cutting oils do a better job (in my experience) and are formulated with workshop use in mind. Cutting softer materials won't build up much heat, so unlikely to get oil thrown out for you to breathe in. 
Both will come with a COSHH sheet so you can protect yourself accordingly. Safe machining


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## projectnut (Sep 8, 2021)

Another option might be to install an exhaust fan in the room.  It doesn't necessarily have to be something permanently mounted in a wall or ceiling.  It can be something like a portable welding fume extractor with the exhaust hose out the window, or a soldering fume eliminator..









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Personally I have a 650 cfm ducted exhaust fan with an inlet port over the headstock of the large lathe and another over the milling machine.  Mine was made in Germany and came in a kit with 2 inlet ports from Grainger Industrial; supply.  They no longer sell the kit, but here's a link to a similar fan only from Amazon.






						In-Line Duct Fan 8 in 650 CFM - Built In Household Ventilation Fans - Amazon.com
					

In-Line Duct Fan 8 in 650 CFM - Built In Household Ventilation Fans - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com


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## akjeff (Sep 8, 2021)

I try to use carbide tools and mill/turn dry at every opportunity. When I do use lube, I've switched to Anchor Lube, and don't miss all the smoke and stink from conventional cutting oils.


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## seasicksteve (Sep 8, 2021)

Those are pheromones you are inhaling. Why do you think this hobby becomes an obcession for so many of us


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## ericc (Sep 8, 2021)

derfatdutchman said:


> When you say 3M mask I'm guessing you mean a cartridge type respirator. When was the last time you changed the cartridges and do you have the correct cartridges installed? Having cartridges for organic vapors, cleaning, painting fumes won't give you the level of protection you need if you being more exposed to fine airborne particulates.


They must be helping, since he said he didn't feel hoarse after wearing the mask.  It may be worth doing some experimentation.  I wonder if a simple dust mask would provide some benefit.  They don't restrict breathing as much as the respirators and are easier to use.

I sometimes strike with the guys at the San Jose History Park.  They recently had a mask rule, and the blacksmiths were surprised how those simple cloth masks really cut down on the coal smoke dirt and coughing.  We have a new respect for those simple face coverings.  Much less black stuff and coughing after the session.  I think we will continue wearing these things, blacksmithing or not.  They have become more socially acceptable.


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## pontiac428 (Sep 8, 2021)

In machining, your inhalation hazard is oil mists.  Very little will be vapor, and you're not really getting combustion/decomposition products.  Mineral oil bases are generally pretty safe when compared to solvents or smoke particulates.  Problem with oils is that many have sensitizers added that can cause a stronger response after some period of past exposure than initially.  This is why so many people have had issues using Tap Magic.  Halfway through the bottle, and the smell makes people feel sick.  I would stay to very clean cutting oils.  I use castor oil on the lathe because of its high heat tolerance.  Otherwise, non-detergent oil or spindle oil works well.  It pays to know what's in the products you use, so you can avoid things you are sensitive to.  You might react badly to oxygenated hydrocarbons like glycol ethers, esters, or ketones.  Stick with plain base oils instead.

If you want to use a respirator for oil mists, you need to get the appropriate P- cartridge for oil Proof.  Any kind of ventilation that provides air exchange (as opposed to circulation) is a help, and filtering circulated air is better than not.


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## tmenyc (Sep 8, 2021)

This is all really helpful and interesting. I think my first step will be switching to Anchor Lube. I have their sample bottle at home, use it for lubing center holes, will now use small amounts for cutting. 
Thanks!
Tim


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## Dabbler (Sep 8, 2021)

I'd switch to olive oil or canola oil for your lubrication.  There are a lot of harmful or even poisonous additives in 10X30 motor oil...  And I'd still wear a mask, to filter out the aerosols.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 8, 2021)

Delrin has particularly obnoxious fumes when heated excessively; even worse than Nylon. They certainly would affect your respiratory system. Ebonite is hard rubber and may also have harmful decomposition products However, you should never reach those temperatures when cutting Delrin.


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## Batmanacw (Sep 8, 2021)

I installed the biggest bathroom exhaust fan I could find right above my mill and lathe after a getting a pretty rough cough for a few days after getting a lot of smoke from drilling a lot of big holes. I also run a fan right in my face to move the air. The difference is huge. It helped a ton. 

You might at least want to get a fan in your face and run a window fan to move air.


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## woodchucker (Sep 8, 2021)

tmenyc said:


> t motor oil! I use it to lube the lathe (but not the ways, don't worry...) and for cutting. Happy to change.
> I think I may have oil that does not have detergent, can check.


again, like lo-fi said, motor oil is not cutting oil, I know many people that use old used motor oil. but it's not the detergent.

try a cutting oil. I know some people use lard.  try that. try bacon oil.. at least it smells good.  I use mobil 766, tap magic, tap magic for al, wd-40, and anchor lube.

edit: mobil 77 to mobil 766


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## silence dogood (Sep 8, 2021)

A lot of times I eat bacon for breakfast.  Cooking renders the oil out.  Would filtering the oil through some cheese cloth make it good for cutting oil?


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## Lo-Fi (Sep 8, 2021)

It'll probably make you feel very hungry while machining


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## Watchwatch (Sep 8, 2021)

silence dogood said:


> A lot of times I eat bacon for breakfast. Cooking renders the oil out. Would filtering the oil through some cheese cloth make it good for cutting oil?



I just use a paper towel. You can buy hydrogenated lard. It won’t go rancid if stored at room temp. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chatter chatter cut cut (Sep 8, 2021)

derfatdutchman said:


> When you say 3M mask I'm guessing you mean a cartridge type respirator. When was the last time you changed the cartridges and do you have the correct cartridges installed? Having cartridges for organic vapors, cleaning, painting fumes won't give you the level of protection you need if you being more exposed to fine airborne particulates.


I'v been using 10w30 for about everything including oil for the ways. sure wont use for turning lube any more. have not found way oil or cutting fluid at any hardware stores in this town. just got a zorro catalog that lists tap magic.will marine lower unit oil work for way oil?


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## chatter chatter cut cut (Sep 8, 2021)

i use rendered deer fat boil it with snow melt water and throw it out onto the snow . repeat about 3 times to get all the salt out of it so it wont causse rust. works for boots too.


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## hman (Sep 9, 2021)

I desaltify bacon fat about the same way as @chatter chatter cut cut does deer lard - boil about 1 part fat with 2 parts water for a while, stirring well from time to time, then pour the fat (and as little water as possible) into a bowl.   Let it cool in a bowl and solidify, then lift the fat off the remaining water.  You can pretty much get rid of the last of the water by placing a paper towel in the bowl and dropping the lard cake back onto it.


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## sycle1 (Sep 9, 2021)

Great subject 
I think we are all a bit sensitive to oil fumes, vapor, mist whatever it is.
I use coconut oil as a cutting lubricant on the lathe and mill, it is a more pleasant smell, it still smokes a bit.
I try to use it only when necessary.
Seems to work okay as a lubricant.


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## Suzuki4evr (Sep 9, 2021)

jmkasunich said:


> You write "only turning delrin or ebonite rather than brass or steel" as if those materials are safer than metals.  I think the opposite is true.  Metals rarely produce vapors when cut dry, but plastics certainly do.  And those vapors might not be good for you.


I am with what you said.


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## stupoty (Sep 9, 2021)

silence dogood said:


> A lot of times I eat bacon for breakfast.  Cooking renders the oil out.  Would filtering the oil through some cheese cloth make it good for cutting oil?



The best cutting lube I ever had was some home brew bacon / lard grease mix that came with my first lathe.

Did make me want bacon sarnies a lot when in use.

Stu


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## tmenyc (Sep 9, 2021)

Thanks, friends. I did not ever think or imply that delrin or ebonite is safer than metals. It fits my needs for the lathe.  But my hoarseness stems from turning steel, which is the issue at hand. 
Last night I swapped out the motor oil and will use my Anchor Lube sample, see how it works. 
My mask is the 3M P100 with the 2091 filters.  I use it religiously when grinding tools, and recently at the lathe, although I would certainly prefer to not use it at the lathe. 
Thanks!
Tim


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## stupoty (Sep 9, 2021)

tmenyc said:


> Thanks, friends. I did not ever think or imply that delrin or ebonite is safer than metals. It fits my needs for the lathe.  But my hoarseness stems from turning steel, which is the issue at hand.
> Last night I swapped out the motor oil and will use my Anchor Lube sample, see how it works.
> My mask is the 3M P100 with the 2091 filters.  I use it religiously when grinding tools, and recently at the lathe, although I would certainly prefer to not use it at the lathe.
> Thanks!
> Tim



If your turning hot rolled steel I find it amazing how much dust the mill scale layer can make.  

Stu


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## graham-xrf (Sep 9, 2021)

Several things can be going on here.

You can become sensitized to aromatic hydrocarbons that can have your chest go wheezy. This means vapors from acetone cleaner, WD40 squirts, and oil vapors. All of these are stopped by the standard 3M mask with the carbon filters. Mine is the M7502, but I mean the kind that make you look like an extra from "Alien" !

I start to go wrong from the slightest whiff, unless I use the mask. Also, whatever is in the paint rattle-cans also sets it off in me. Perhaps a good rule might be ..  "If you can smell it, it is probably bad for you" !


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## aagifford (Sep 10, 2021)

When you heat up Delrin which is also called Acetal or POM, you get formaldehyde, which is the base chemical it is made from. That is the smell you are getting. You need a respirator at least, not a mask or exhaust the fumes.


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## FOMOGO (Sep 10, 2021)




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## Tipton1965 (Sep 16, 2021)

I started working in a machine shop back in the early 80's right out of high school.  It's kind of scary thinking back about all the stuff everyone was inhaling on a daily basis.  Cutting oil smoke, cigarette smoke from the chain smokers, solder smoke from the electrical area, etc.  None of it ever bothered me but it couldn't have been good for anyone's health.  This is a good subject and one that should be taken seriously even if you're not bothered by what you breath.


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## wachuko (Sep 16, 2021)

Anchor Lube... was not aware of that one, I will go ahead and order some.  I have WD-40 and Tap Magic...

This is a great thread.  As I start using the lathe, I need to be aware of what to use to minimize inhaling stuff that would impact my health...


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## homebrewed (Sep 16, 2021)

In case someone decides to try drug-store type of mineral oil as cutting oil, sometime back I noticed that the bottle we've got has vitamin E (tocopherol) added to it.  That's the same stuff that caused all the Vaping lung problems.  I'm sure that the level of exposure, compared to vaping, would be much lower....but this does highlight the potential hazards of using a material in a manner unanticipated by the manufacturer.


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## tmenyc (Oct 6, 2021)

I always appreciate it when the OP posts an update with results... Anchor Lube, which I previously used only to lube a live center in a center hole, works great in turning 12L14 and the smoke issue has gone away with only that change. And, of course, the smoke did turn out to be was the source of my hoarseness, so the issue that got me to write this topic is also gone.  
Thanks for all the help on this one! 

(PS, I did decide to not use bacon grease or other cooking byproducts. My wife and I, in a NYC apartment, generally try to not have food outside of the kitchen and dining area, so the notion of moving the lathe into the kitchen provided a good laugh but not much else...)

Tim


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## woodchucker (Oct 6, 2021)

tmenyc said:


> I always appreciate it when the OP posts an update with results... Anchor Lube, which I previously used only to lube a live center in a center hole, works great in turning 12L14 and the smoke issue has gone away with only that change. And, of course, the smoke did turn out to be was the source of my hoarseness, so the issue that got me to write this topic is also gone.
> Thanks for all the help on this one!
> 
> (PS, I did decide to not use bacon grease or other cooking byproducts. My wife and I, in a NYC apartment, generally try to not have food outside of the kitchen and dining area, so the notion of moving the lathe into the kitchen provided a good laugh but not much else...)
> ...


A live center does not need lubrication. A dead center does, but I don't recommend a cutting oil. Molly Grease, way oil, lithium grease, super grease (a synthetic), high pressure lube.. Not cutting oil.

Anchor is great on many hard to cut metals. I find it especially useful for 304 SS. wish I had tried it b4 I work hardened a project. Oh well, live and learn.


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## tmenyc (Oct 6, 2021)

Thanks, didn't know that...I guess I've always thought that metal spinning on metal needed it. Good to know! I'll use a bit of way oil from now on. 

Tim


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## extropic (Oct 6, 2021)

tmenyc said:


> Thanks, didn't know that...I guess I've always thought that metal spinning on metal needed it. Good to know! I'll use a bit of way oil from now on.
> 
> Tim



It sounds like there may be some confusion going on here.

Just trying to clarify. AFAIK, once upon a time, any center in the spindle was called a "live center" (because the spindle turns under power) and any center in tailstock was called "dead center" because that spindle quill doesn't turn. Those terms/definitions are long obsolete.

For at least 60 years we call any center that has a self contained bearing(s) a "live center" and those are commonly used in a non-rotating spindle (tailstock). A solid center is called a "dead center" and can be used in either a rotating or non-rotating spindle.

Certainly, the contact between a rotating workpiece and a non-rotating center must be lubricated using a High Pressure (Rated for 50,000 PSI or better) rated lubricant. There are many. I don't know anything about Anchor Lube, so no comment. I don't think Way Oil is the proper lubricant for a dead center.


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## chatter chatter cut cut (Oct 6, 2021)

unless you can desalt that bacon don't let it near your tools.


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## woodchucker (Oct 6, 2021)

tmenyc said:


> Thanks, didn't know that...I guess I've always thought that metal spinning on metal needed it. Good to know! I'll use a bit of way oil from now on.
> 
> Tim


Tim , way oil is useable but not the best. I said it because sometimes you want to get work done. way oil will stay longer than thin oils, but if you do a long turning, you will burn up the way oil.  So check it and re-apply if you do a long session.  
Actually with any dead center, you need to check to make sure it's still lubed after a while. The frequency is what changes based on your lube.

I used a half dead center and either I didn't lube it enough, or I put a center too deep, and the half cut into the project and the tip of the half dead center.  I never knew what the answer was. I just know that I am more careful now. I use more lube and don't drill that deep.


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## tmenyc (Oct 6, 2021)

Thanks for the tip! 
Tim


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## B2 (Oct 6, 2021)

Lots of good suggestions.

Yes, breathing unknown vapors is not good. Cancer, allergies, etc.  Yet, we really do not know what we are breathing when the lubricant/coolant breaks down from the heat.  Organic materials become OTHER organics!  We seem to have a tolerance to small amounts of many chemicals, but with repeated use we develop all kinds of reactions to some of them.  Because of this I can no longer use Neosporin.  I just used it a bit too long trying to keep a wound from getting infected.

I used to work for a chemical company so have worried about this before I started machining.   Some of my thoughts about lubricants/coolant processes:

I like to think of lubricant and coolant as two different processes.  A lubricant tends to reduce friction and so the heat at the tool tip is decreased.  But it probably is of little value if one is cutting rather than rubbing.  (rubbing = tool contact without cutting).  Cutting will generate heat representing the removal of material.  (The atomic level cutting process is not very well understood be we know it is breaking atomic bonds and in our case is also bending the work materials-----which is at least part of the generation of the heat energy.)  A rubbing example is a drill bit with two flutes but only one spiral/pig tail cut is coming off.   The other flute edge is just rubbing/friction and the heat is making it even more dull.  (It is very hard to sharpen a drill bit so that both cutting edges are matched!  If you get two pigtails during drilling you have a decent drill bit AND the plunge rate is set up properly to cause both edges to cut! ) A coolant does not have to lower the friction, but may.  However, it carries away the heat to keep the tool from over heating.   As metal tools heat up such that the cutting edge temperature gets higher, relative to  their melting point, the tool metal gets softer and so they dull more quickly.  (Carbide tools have very high melting points and so do not dull as rapidly.)  So when we generate smoke we know that the lubricant/coolant is either evaporating, breaking down into other organic vapors, or both and boiling to create both other gases or gases with droplets.  It may also be carrying the work material with it.

Coolants can function by lowering the work/tool temperature as the coolant gets hotter.  The physics of this is the energy needed to raise the temperature of the coolant.  For example, the specific heat (heat capacity) of water near freezing is.... one gram (about 1 cubic centimeter) of water increases temperature by 1 degree Celcuis for each Calorie (4.19 Joule) of energy it absorbs.  When water boils at 100C, or melts from ice at 0C, its temperature does not increase as it absorbs the energy, but this takes a lot of energy, called the latent energy.  To melt ice takes 80 calories per gram (about 1 CC) and to boil water takes 540 Calories/gram.  

Clearly water is a great coolant as it comes off as steam!  But I don't like to use it as I am fearful of rusting my machine surfaces.  But you can get some water based coolants with rust inhibitors mixed in.  Hopefully, the water vaporizes before the inhibitors and that the inhibitors are not toxic. 
When I first started using a mill, I decided I was going to get the "best" lub/coolant from McMasters-Carr so paid a little extra (MOBILMET 766). Poured a whole gallon in my flood coolant system and started cutting a bunch of steel.  The smoke and stink drove me out of the room!  I concluded that this had something it that had a low boiling point so as remove heat by utilizing a vapor latent energy process.   Then I looked up the Safety Data Sheets and sure enough you are not suppose to breath this stuff.   It is probably made for automated, enclosed machine tools!  Next try was listed a Food-Grade cutting lubricant, BioCut FG 2000, based upon a Canola oil but has additives.  It is not nearly as bad, but still not ideal as the Safety Data Sheet still says to were a respirator.  Who knows what it breaks down into.  Anyway, not much smoke, but the oil seems to get sticky with use. 

New activated Carbon cartridges in your mask will soak up the vapors and the particles cannot get through unless super fine.  We all know about N95 mask now.  The stop most of the particles, but do little to slow down vapors.   If you can smell it is not working or the mask is not tight fitting.

The best solution is lots of ventilation, but if you cannot do this then I would get an electrostatic air cleaner (Smoke Eater?) to try to gather up the molecules and particles.  Clean it often. There was a big one in my forced air furnace system when I moved to this house and it does work!  Hepa are used filters with lots of fan circulation to take out the really fine particles/droplets and are what are used in both medical operating rooms as well as integrated circuit clean rooms.  

I am headed towards more ventilation, but am not their yet.  I just put in a new glass block window in my small shop room so that I can use hoses and fans for pushing the air outside through a couple missing blocks hole!

Good luck.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 8, 2021)

Now that you've brought coolants into the conversation, there is another issue.  Coolants are whole other animal.  Many contain various amines, almost certainly alkyl amines.  Amines can be used as chelating agents and binders for carrying metal particles away, they can pick up or pass an electron casually, provide corrosion protection and antioxidant properties, and raise the boiling point of a solution.  They can also break apart and reform under tool pressure.  The nastier by-products are n-nitrosamines, which are straight up adducts to DNA's guanine.  That means direct genetic damage and cancer of the lung, throat, and sinus.  The manufacturers aren't regulated for them, because they're not packaged in the bottle- nitrosamines are byproducts that result from the end user's application.  So pay attention to those SDS sheets for nitrosamine precursors on those coolants.  The information is out on the web if you're interested.


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## francist (Oct 8, 2021)

That’s an interesting twist. It’s not always just the ingredients listed on the label one needs to be concerned about, but also what those ingredients can become under the right circumstances. Most illuminating.

-frank


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