# Introduction



## Richard King (Jul 7, 2012)

Hello Everyone.

I have been thinking about future topics we should discuss on this thread:

- Leveling and Aligning machine tools
- What's, Why's and How Come we Hand-scrape and 1/2 Moon Oil Flake
- When a machine needs to be rebuilt
- Can You Rebuild your own machine?
- How do I pick a rebuilding company?
- How to adjust a Gib
- Where and how to install wear-strips and shims on machines
- Oil Lubrication
- Preventive Maintenance
- The use Kinematics or 3 - Points suspension in machine tools 


I hope you can suggest some topics too.


I have been a Machine Tool Rebuilder for 40+ years apprenticing under my Dad. I was very fortunate during my apprenticeship.  My Dad, who was a Journeyman Machinist and Machine Rebulder, worked at a used machine dealer in Minneapolis where we rebuilt dozens of different types and brands of machine tools.  I saw so many problems and issues like worn ways, replaced bearings, rebuilt hydraulic pumps, built hydraulic systems.  I got a great education. 

Over the years my Dad specialized in scraping precision machine tools and surface plates where I learned how to scrape very very accurately. Before granite became popular as surface plates, machinists and rebuilders relied upon scraping 3 exact sized cast iron plates to generate precision flat surface plates. We would lap them together and then scrape them using Prussian Blue and then they were scraped to precision classes.  In machine tools we consider .0002" per 12", precision and .00005" per 12" for Super Precision.  

Bearing points are generated using hand scrapers.  A Bearing spot or point is a high spot left when we rub the plates together using Prussian blue on one plate and where it rubs off on the other plates, we scrape it off and the more you scrape it the flatter it gets and as you scrape shorter and shorter scrape marks you get what we call is "points per inch".  Conventional machine are scraped 12 to 18 points on average and 38 to 42 on Super Precision. 

As a rule of thumb machines like a South Bend Lathe, Bridgeport Mill, KO Lee Surface Grinder, Cleveland Planers, etc. are considered "Conventional" style machines and are considered "Precision".  Machines like Studer Cylindrical Grinders, Moore Jig Bores, Cincinnati Mon-o-set Tool and Cutter Grinders, Brown and Shape Surface Grinders, cast iron plates, cast iron straight-edges, etc. are Super Precision.

More on scraping next time.


I will do my best  to answer any questions you have about machine repair and machine rebuilding. I will try to look at the web-site 2 to 3 times daily and more when I am not rebuilding machinery. At the moment I am scheduled to rescrape the ways on a Okuma Howa Vertical Machining Center, the Ways, alignment of the head-stock and tail-stock on a Drake Thread Grinder and I will be teaching a scraping seminar here in Minnesota. 

I am always looking for hosts to hold scraping classes. I will be teaching the next class inside the garage shop of a friend and former student. All we need is a surface plate and work benches and some assorted tools that most of you have. 

I also teach seminars inside plants and shops all around the world.  I have been teaching seminars for several years now and have taught over 15,000 men and women to scrape in companies like GM, Timken, Cummins, John Deere, etc. here in the USA and have taught at several new machine builders in Taiwan.   I will gather together some pictures and add them soon.

 Thanks for asking me to your Moderator.  

More later. Please ask away. 
Richard


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## bcall2043 (Jul 8, 2012)

Welcome aboard again Richard. It is exciting to have a real professional rebuild expert here on our forum. Many of us here have older machines many of which need some form of repairs. Looking forward to your topics and the questions from the other forum members. 

I have a  couple of projects to tackle and have collected a few scraping and inspection tools but have not felt I had enough knowledge to take a scraping project on. Maybe having a go-to professional will give me the confidence to move forward.

Benny


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## Richard King (Jul 8, 2012)

bcall2043 said:


> Welcome aboard again Richard. It is exciting to have a real professional rebuild expert here on our forum. Many of us here have older machines many of which need some form of repairs. Looking forward to your topics and the questions from the other forum members.
> 
> I have a  couple of projects to tackle and have collected a few scraping and inspection tools but have not felt I had enough knowledge to take a scraping project on. Maybe having a go-to professional will give me the confidence to move forward.
> 
> Benny



There is a book called "Machine Tool Reconditioning"  that is sold online that is what we call "the Bible of rebuilding.  It was written in the 50's and most rebuilders have a copy.  Another good book is The Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy by Wayne Moore, but he talks about super precision scraping and it scares people.  I always say "scraping is the easy part and I can teach any mechanically inclined person to scrape in a matter of hours , but knowing were to scrape and how much to take off is the hard part....or "The trade of Scraping".  There are a couple of other DVD's and books sold on Ebay besides my DVD that people use too.  Learning from an expert who can stand there or walk you through it is the key.  I would hate to have brain surgery by a doctor who only read a book.  
Rich


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## FarFar (Jul 9, 2012)

Hello Richard King

Boxford and Southbend lathes were designed to be cheap in manufacture and was surely lousy at work.At least my Boxford was.
I will never be able to understand people that restore cars,motorbikes and tractors that killed people,polluted etc to as new  condition.
No respect for old iron.
Main problem with my Boxford was lack of rigidity.If it is level or not is not important but rigidity and thermal stability is.
Putting a block of seasoned granite under improved matters imensely.
First picture show some 100 mm steel and 125 mm alu disc parted from bar and cleaned.Second picture show parting tool and third lathe set up.
If backgear comes to grief it will be removed as VFD drive enables thread cutting in direct drive.
Dog is sometime lying under grammophone and having a nap.
Now comes my question:
I maybe overdid something putting lathe bed directly down on granite in six points.(Go please to Your nearest Southbend and confirm that there are two normally unused flats from manufacture under middle of bed)
Putting a testbar in spindle and a clock in the usual tool position confirms that lathe turns cylindric within 0.01mm  over 100 mm .
If I put clock on top of testbar picture is not nice:bar is going 0.08 mm up on 100 mm.Have thougth this of no importance but discovered that lathe faces convex.Not much,very little indeed but still the wrong way and it did not in first part of our relationship.It did concave as it should.
Question is how did fitters make lathes face concave?
Scraping V guides can not have been easy or cheap

Kind regards Farfar


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## FarFar (Jul 9, 2012)

A picture of Boxford on granite showing VFD drive

Kind regards

Farfar


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## cjtoombs (Jul 9, 2012)

Richard,Glad to see you started this thread, I'm still in the process of getting everything I need together to scrape my worn out machines.  This is an area of interest that I got into by accident (I bought a worn out machine) and it sparked an interest.  There are some resources out there that are helpful in learning this subject, the book previously mentioned is very good to get an understaning of machine alignment and how it is measured.  Scraping itself is a very technique based skill that is more easily learned by watching some videos and then doing.  Richards class was very good, and helps with the confidence to dive into a project.  Home Shop Machinist is currently doing a series of articles on scraping in the home shop.  The book Machine Tool Rebuilding will also give you a good idea of the equipment you will need to embark on this project.  Scraped straightedges, squares and parallels will be needed, as well as a surface plate, height guage and dial indicators.  Of couse, scrapers, blades and means to sharpen them will also be needed.  Looking forward to seeing projects and solutions here.

CJ


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## rebush (Jul 9, 2012)

Richard: Glad to see we have someone with your credentials to guide us in machinery rebuilding and scraping. Since most of us are hobbyist we're buying used equipment that often need some work done to it. I'm usually willing to jump deeper into a project when I know I can ask for information from someone who has experience. Roger


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## Richard King (Jul 9, 2012)

FarFar said:


> A picture of Boxford on granite showing VFD drive
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Farfar




I am preparing a letter, but not enough time at the moment.  I will be scanning in some info about "The 2 collar test" to check head stock alignment (Z axis)to the bed ways and how to correct it by normally twisting the bed, but if yours is off you may have to shim the bed between the granite and bed.  Did you remove the headstock from the bed by chance?  Whats the machines history, did you grind, plane or scrape the bed?  Was it scraped when new or is it a Rungfu or Grizzly* quality (It's my opinion) I consider those cheap and non precision)    Have you considered how much weight you have introduced to the headstock and is it twisting the bed?

Where are you anyway?  UK or Canada, over the pond?  I have to get out my charts to convert the metrics..ha ha.  When I teach where they are Metric I have a cheat sheet to convert to inch.

I plan on explaining how to test the concave / convex of your  (X axis).  Give me a couple of days to finish up your reply.  To be honest I believe the South Bend Lathe is a Precision lathe and not a cheap lathe, it my have been inexpensive, but it was a quality built machine for its time and place.  It made machining affordable to all American machinists.  I have never seen you brand lathe.  It looks pretty good accept the square gib and set screw adjustments.  The SB lathe has tapered gibs that are fare superior to set screw adjustable gibs. 

*  I understand Grizzly bought South Bend and I am calling the older model Grizzly's non Precision as I have not seen any of the recent, newer models.

Rich


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## Tony Wells (Jul 10, 2012)

Take your time, Rich. This topic deserves thorough treatment, and I don't want you to feel rushed or pressured into putting something up that isn't up to par. Not that you would, from what I have read of your posts elsewhere.


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## FarFar (Jul 10, 2012)

Hello Richard

Boxfords are british Southbend copies and I am danish.I think I can manage the problem by removing some shims under the two midbed supporting points.I do not know history of lathe but it also turned very cylindrical when standard supported on four points  and at that time facing was concave.Problem at that time was shatter and vibrations and I do not want that condition back.
Do not let my problems(wich  I have made myself )disturb your educational line of thougths.
I will wait with patience till You reach crosslide renovation and adjustment.

I will try to upload Boxford spare parts list and a picture of a still wet granite block

Regards

Farfar


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## Benji (Jul 12, 2012)

I really need this thread. 

Then bed on my SB Heavy 10 is well worn, Particularaly the tailstock ways. 
I am living with it but perhaps some day I should do something.


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## Richard King (Jul 12, 2012)

Benji said:


> I really need this thread.
> 
> Then bed on my SB Heavy 10 is well worn, Particularaly the tailstock ways.
> I am living with it but perhaps some day I should do something.



Dear Benji,

If you want to see how bad it is.  take apart the tail-stock and split the top from the bottom.  On 99% of all tail stock ways under where the chuck those tail-stock ways are original, they may have some dings you can file off, but the tail-stock never got that close to the head-stock and on the far right hand end of the tail-stock ways seldom see much use, so I say the are original.  Run the saddle into the middle of the bed, take off your chuck and file or stone the dings on the ways as close to the head-stock, tail-stock ways .  Take the lower 1/2 of tail-stock and place it on the ways up there, then put a mag base on it and put the indicator on the clearance area between the tail-stock and saddle bed ways. If you think about it, when they machined the bed ways they machined the saddle ways, the tail-stock bed ways, the under side for hold downs and the clearance areas between the ways.  Those clearance area have never seen any wear so you can assume they are straight or original.  Crank the saddle to the far right and then slide the tail-stock to the right and check the wear of the tail-stock ways compared to the clearance surfaces.  After you determine the wear in the tail-stock ways you can use the same method to test the saddle bed ways.  I always say to machine scrapers, if it is worn more then .005" get it machined, But if your not into scraping and need to buy the tools and learn how, you might be money ahead to have someone machine the bed.  Let me know how bad it is.  And we can decide what to do.  The tail-stock is no doubt low and pointing down in front.  We can talk about that too, later.  Rich


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## 4GSR (Jul 12, 2012)

Many years ago, Dad and I threw around the idea of mounting his 9" SBL on a piece of 2" thich surfaced ground steel plate.  It never happen.  

We slowly built up a small shop of larger equipment to take place of the need of the 9" SBL.  That, and we were always fortunate to have access to larger machines when needed.


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## Benji (Jul 12, 2012)

This is a South Bend Heavy 10
Three prismatic ways and one flat way.

On the far end of the bed, almost to the back, on the flat way I placed a 1/2" wide by 1/16 thick by 18" ling, Starrett precision ground flat stock. 1/16" diminsion against the way. I can slide a total 0.014 in feeler gages under the ground stock.  At 0.010" thickness the feeler will move about 8" in length before touching the ground stock. 
Close to the chuck were I use it the most its much much better.

I reciently changed the base on the tailstock since the old one was badly tilted.


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## Richard King (Jul 12, 2012)

Benji said:


> This is a South Bend Heavy 10
> Three prismatic ways and one flat way.
> 
> On the far end of the bed, almost to the back, on the flat way I placed a 1/2" wide by 1/16 thick by 18" ling, Starrett precision ground flat stock. 1/16" diminsion against the way. I can slide a total 0.014 in feeler gages under the ground stock.  At 0.010" thickness the feeler will move about 8" in length before touching the ground stock.
> ...



I would look around for a company with a planer, planner mill, a surface grinder or way grinder.   Scraping those 3 V ways and keeping them parallel is a pain for even a pro.  I would send it out if I had the job.


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## Benji (Jul 13, 2012)

My thoughts also.


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## desbromilow (Sep 5, 2012)

I've purchased the Lindsay reprint book on scraping, and have a set of asian scrapers (flat, triangular, etc) which appear to be carbon steel, and around 10-12" in length...
I recall reading that a scraper should be longer... is that correct?

I can change the handles on this set of three to make them longer, but will the blades stand up to the higher leverage, or am I worrying for nothing?

thanks,
Des in Oz


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## Richard King (Sep 5, 2012)

desbromilow said:


> I've purchased the Lindsay reprint book on scraping, and have a set of asian scrapers (flat, triangular, etc) which appear to be carbon steel, and around 10-12" in length...
> I recall reading that a scraper should be longer... is that correct?
> 
> I can change the handles on this set of three to make them longer, but will the blades stand up to the higher leverage, or am I worrying for nothing?
> ...



Welcome to our site.

The ones you purchased are more of  machinist scraper set I would think.  The triangle one is used for de-burring holes and scraping inside bronze bushings.  I prefer a carbide tipped scraper as shown in the famous brand http://www.andersonscraper.com/Anderson-Hand-Scrapers.php    I am 6'3" tall and I prefer a 18" to 22" long scraper.  I own a Biax hand scraper  (and 4 Biax Power Scrapers and one 1/2 moon flaker) as shown at   http://dapra.com/biax/scrapers/accessories.htm 

I would suggest anyone interested in hand scraping buy a copy of Machine Tool Reconditioning .  You can find them in the net or I believe Lindsay Publishing and I know DAPRA sells them.  You are right about the leverage of a longer scraper. 

There is a very good teacher and scraper down under ..I forgot his site name , but his first name is Phil.  He hosted a scraping seminar in Melbourne last year I think.  I will check and see if I can find his proper info and let you know.  You will also get a flat rubber pad and screw it onto the handle to push the scraper with your body and not use your arms as much.  I will have to learn how to download some photo's as I have tons showing push and pull scraping and power scraping. 
 Thanks again for signing up.   Richard


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## desbromilow (Sep 6, 2012)

Thanks Richard,

I've heard of Phil (seen him mentioned in the Aust woodworkers forum) - melbourne is a fair distance from me, but I do continue to read what I can, and make mistakes at home.
I'll work myself up to the bigger scraper by making one to use the carbide tip I've read about.
Once you mentioned the scraping of bushes, I realised I'd seen my scrapers in an article on refurbishing myford lathes - makes perfect sense now.

I'll continue to read and play here, and if I make it to melbourne, I'll look Phil up.

Thanks, and thanks for the welcome
Des

Hello Des,
I talked to a friend who I thought was Phil named Rich (senior moment, lol) on PM where I know Phil writes andI asked Rich to help and he is going to contact you and or Phil, try to help.   He mentioned the wood working group would be your ticket as they all watch that blog.  I have many senior moments with names...lol...so I apolizie to everyone for getting things mixed up.  You will discover this site is more relaxed and they don't have "angry" people s I have seen on the other well known site.  I write in all of them, but this will be my home and I hope we can get a big following in the future too.  Have a safe weekend.  Richard King

Hi Rich, I am not Phil (like you I am a Richard ), but am a friend of his and I partly helped organise the first scraping class we had down here... 

If you want I can pass this onto him or if you want you can send him a private message... If Des wants to learn scraping, his best bet is to join the aus wood working forum he mentioned and post in the metal working bit,http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/ that is where we got most of the people who went to the two scraping classes from..... Probably doubtful we will hold another one as we had trouble getting numbers for the last one we had, plenty of initial interest, but we lost quite a few people closer to the class date and ended up with barely enough to make it worth it... 

Regards, Richard.....


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## DaveSohlstrom (Sep 6, 2012)

Just found this thread. Very good so far.

Rich
enjoyed talking with you on the phone the other day when you were headed for the PO. I ordered your DVD off Ebay looking forward to it arriving.

I've been scraping on a project for a few days now and have one low corner that just does not want to arrive level with the rest of the surface.

Dave


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## Richard King (Sep 7, 2012)

Your welcome  )

I always like to help on the phone, a heck of a lot faster to talk then type....for me anyway, not so many typo's either.
My DVD is only shows how to scrape a small plate flat.  Showing you how to hand and electric Biax Power scrape and 1/2 moon oil flake.  I was always going to do a set of other DVD's on scraping a Bridgeport knee mill, a lathe and surface grinder.  But it cost me $11,000. to do the first one as I had a pro film it for me.  I doubt I will ever see a profit from it.  I do the seminars now and hope my students will pass on the knowledge too.  I would also recommend you buy a copy of Machine Tool Reconditioning by Connelly.  It is an oldie but goodie and sold n several places on the internet and DAPRA.com (I have to put I have ties to DAPRA as they consider me their Scraping Tool Instructor). 

Take care and happy scraping.
Rich



DaveSohlstrom said:


> Just found this thread. Very good so far.
> 
> Rich
> enjoyed talking with you on the phone the other day when you were headed for the PO. I ordered your DVD off Ebay looking forward to it arriving.
> ...


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## ScubaSteve (Sep 8, 2012)

Hi Richard-

I've been peeking in on this forum now and then and I like that there's some recent activity. I'm slowly collecting tools to get the feel for hand scraping small stuff, like a lathe cross slide. I have a VN12 I'd like to tackle one day, and a Sheldon 10x56 lathe that I am currently cleaning up. 

As far as the lathe, I don't think I'll ever be able to get it back to precision. And, considering that even professionals have trouble scraping in prismatic ways, I'll gladly sidestep that project and spend my money and time elsewhere. 

Getting to the point, how do you feel about Moglice and/or Turcite when scraping/machining the ways isn't practical? Sending the bed and other assemblies out to be machined sucks up a LOT of money that could be better spent elsewhere. Are these methods more trouble than they're worth?


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## Richard King (Sep 9, 2012)

ScubaSteve said:


> Hi Richard-
> 
> I've been peeking in on this forum now and then and I like that there's some recent activity. I'm slowly collecting tools to get the feel for hand scraping small stuff, like a lathe cross slide. I have a VN12 I'd like to tackle one day, and a Sheldon 10x56 lathe that I am currently cleaning up.
> 
> ...



Welcome Steve,

I'm glad you wrote to keep the questions coming in.

I have scraped several lathe beds over the years.  We call "prismatic" ways a V-way.  A, V-way and a Flat way combination are fairly easy to scrape parallel, but the double V-way is a real pain to measure and indicate to keep them parallel .  I always say if the bed ways (no matter if its a lathe, mill or grinder) are worn more then .005" then get it machined.  There are always exceptions to that rule which would be if the machine can't be dismantled and moved very easy, is a machining company close and reasonable who can do it, your budget, time you have, have the tools to do the job, have the skill level, etc.

I will prepare a procedure to test the ways for wear in an upcoming thread, where and when to level and or align a machine,  I used to sell Moglice and love the product in several places.  I got in a little hot water with them when I was speaking at a SME Rebuilding Forum and someone asked me "what is better, Moglice or Turcite?"   My answer was "They are both good products and both have areas where one works better then the other".    I think you readers know I have taught scraping classes in Taiwan at new machine builder factories for over 25 years and I would estimate 99% of the builders use turcite.  Over there they use both the brand name Turcite and a similar product called Rulon, but they call both brands turcite (small T).  

The Chinese language I guess is not like English, they get used to a English word and that's the word for ever. I have an example that's pretty funny.  Before leaving home,  I had some work shirts made and put "Machine Scraping" embroidered over my pocket and under that I put my name "Rich".   They never said anything to me until the day I left, being very polite, my interpreter and friend said "Richard next time you return, please spell out you name, Richard"  as the people who see "Rich" think you are bragging and you have a lot of money" 

Anyway here in the states I buy Rulon as I find it to be as good as Turcite and less expensive.  Moglice is wonderful on big VTL's, Big machines in general and not so good on small machines.  Once you put Moglice on and you might have misalignied it, it's a pain to scrape as it will dull carbide.  For you that don't know how Moglice works you use set screws or small shims to align the ways before you inject a wet liquid or paste that is similar to a 2 part epoxy and it dries. Check out the website:    http://moglice.com/   You can scrape Rulon after it is applied and that's why the Taiwanese prefer it.  

 I wish the readers would put the brand name of the machines you own as I have worked on so many machines over the years I get the models mixed up, sort of like memorizing all the names of cars versus brands (really getting hard now with all the imports).  What's a VN12, Van Norman??  
Thanks and keep writing,  don't be shy and all questions are welcome!
Richard King


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## Richard King (Sep 9, 2012)

ScubaSteve said:


> Hi Richard-
> 
> I've been peeking in on this forum now and then and I like that there's some recent activity. I'm slowly collecting tools to get the feel for hand scraping small stuff, like a lathe cross slide. I have a VN12 I'd like to tackle one day, and a Sheldon 10x56 lathe that I am currently cleaning up.
> 
> ...


I wanted to add I have taught several classes in Indiana or the years.  In Indy I taught at Detroit Diesel Allison, Allison Gas Turbine (Now different names)  I think Penski bought DDA a and Rolls Royce bought AGT.  I taught at Hurco, NSK south of Indy and Cumins in Columbus.  So if you put an ad on Craigslist under tools wanted, you might be able to buy some scraping tools cheap?  Never hurts to ask. Talk to you later, Rich


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