# How to True up the table/box?



## madmodifier (Jan 28, 2019)

Hi All,

I have been playing around with my "new" 7" rhodes shaper and I am finding that the parts are out quite a bit. I pulled the vise and ran an indicator over the table and it appears to be .005-.006 out. I pulled up on the ram when it was fully extended and did not get much movement. I think the solution is to true up the table since I cannot see a good way to shim up the table/box. I do not have much in the way of experience grinding HSS shape tools. I have ground a couple roughers that work well in Steel. I am guessing that the correct tool to cut the box would be a shear tool? I tried searching around the interwebs but I could not find a book or article that speaks to doing this.

Has anyone trued up the table on their shaper? Advice?


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## Superburban (Jan 28, 2019)

Before I mess with the box, I would look hard for where the error is coming from. With the dial indicator again, Map out the high low spots. Then move the box to the top, and to the bottom limits, and look for changes. Then to the left, and to the right.

If you have an error from a worn spot on the saddle, or body way, skimming off some of the box, can make things worse. Just stand back, and take a look at what moves, and slides against what, and those are more likely where your issues are coming from, then a twisted/worn box.

The old saying, measure twice, cut once, really applies here.


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## madmodifier (Jan 28, 2019)

Superburban said:


> Before I mess with the box, I would look hard for where the error is coming from. With the dial indicator again, Map out the high low spots. Then move the box to the top, and to the bottom limits, and look for changes. Then to the left, and to the right.
> 
> If you have an error from a worn spot on the saddle, or body way, skimming off some of the box, can make things worse. Just stand back, and take a look at what moves, and slides against what, and those are more likely where your issues are coming from, then a twisted/worn box.
> 
> The old saying, measure twice, cut once, really applies here.



I defiantly will be sure to verify my readings more before moving forward. However I have taken full stroke measurements on multiple location on the table. Lifting and pushing the moving parts to see where the discrepancy is coming from.

I think this is a good question in general. There does not appear to be much info on this online currently.


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## f350ca (Jan 28, 2019)

As Superburban said check and double check where the error could be. 
That being said I had to surface the table on my OLD Pearless. On it the front of the table was a couple of thou high. That would indicate the ram was sagging. I adjusted the ram gibbs and got the same measurements. I get a couple of thou movement with the ram extended but that is to be expected on an 18 inch stroke. Wear in the table gibs should make the front of the table low. Don't think this machine saw much use.
I used a brazed carbide cutter, was afraid a HSS one would wear removing the amount of material on the large table this shaper has. Don't think you want to use a shear tool, the table needs some roughness for parts to grip when your machining.
The table does need to be parallel to the ram, shimming the vice or parts bolted to the table got old real quick.
Best of luck

Greg


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## Superburban (Jan 28, 2019)

I did not think so much about the ram ways wearing. That does also make sense. I wonder if it would be better to think about scraping the ram ways back to level/ parallel with the table. It would be less metal to work on, but how do you determine what and where to cut?

I think I would shim a straight edge to the table, so the front, and back read zero on the indicator, and confirm that in between is all zero. To rule out any curvature in the wear, where ever it is. Confirm that the stroke is all in the same plane, then move on to how to match the table to the ram.


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## madmodifier (Jan 28, 2019)

OK, whether mine needs it or not is a separate issue. I am interested in hearing how best to true the table/box on a shaper. I believe this is something that would have been done like you grind the chuck on a surface grinder.


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## Superburban (Jan 28, 2019)

Now you have me wanting to go out and check my shaper.

Does your shaper even have enough stroke to cut the whole table? I think that is the first question. If you can cover the whole table with you cutter, then whats the best way to cut? I think I would look into a repacable carbide cutter, that way if it chips, or breaks 1/2 way through the process, you can replace the cutter, and keep working.

I can't find it now, but remember a Youtube vid, where the owner mounted a tool post grinder to the end of the ram, and ground the table that way. I can't remember how he handled the area right next to the column.


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## mikey (Jan 28, 2019)

Hope @Ulma Doctor will chime in here. He knows about shapers.


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## f350ca (Jan 28, 2019)

Scraping the ways probably would be the correct way to correct the problem, but refacing the table was a lot easier and removed a couple of signature marks previous owners had left. On my Peerless there's probably more area on the ram ways than the table top.
Mine has a universal table?, rotating it to the other face showed the same error so Im pretty sure it was wear in the ways and ram.
As for grinding the table, it would look pretty but wonder how well parts would clamp to the smooth surface. When your taking a heavy cut there's a lot of force trying to slide the part along the table. Even with a machined surface I often need the stop at the front of the table.

Greg


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Jan 28, 2019)

Would it be possible to bolt a "sacrificial" plate to the shaper table top and then use the shaper to cut it parallel to the ram?  That way you dont make any permanent alterations to the shapers parts and still get your parallel surface to work on.  Im just thinking out loud and know nothing about a shaper so if this is ridiculous please go easy on me and explain why, Thanks.


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## tcarrington (Jan 28, 2019)

MadModifier - Latinrascalrg1's approach might be the easiest if the table is out consistently in all positions. I would allow use, further testing, and make some of the setups easier.

A very interesting problem. Based on the geometry of the machine, it looks like either or both of the up/down or cross ways could be worn enough to allow some "sag". I am assuming the table is lower as it gets further out (ram extended position). I would also take a close look at tracing the same path on the surface when the table is to the left and right positions. That should reveal whether the cross slide is worn, likely in the middle. 
Figuring which surfaces are worn will be require a lot of work and disassembly. 

What I am suggesting is map the table top in at least three positions - left right and center. You should map at least 9 positions on the table in each position. With enough math and data points you can isolate the flatness of the table with how the cross slide moves it. In a similar fashion, testing it at a few vertical positions would show how straight / flat the vertical movement is. Testing / indicating the sides of the table have not been considered in this suggestion.

Someone who knows better than me should weight in. 

Best of luck.


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## madmodifier (Jan 28, 2019)

Superburban said:


> Now you have me wanting to go out and check my shaper.
> 
> Does your shaper even have enough stroke to cut the whole table? I think that is the first question. If you can cover the whole table with you cutter, then whats the best way to cut? I think I would look into a repacable carbide cutter, that way if it chips, or breaks 1/2 way through the process, you can replace the cutter, and keep working.
> 
> I can't find it now, but remember a Youtube vid, where the owner mounted a tool post grinder to the end of the ram, and ground the table that way. I can't remember how he handled the area right next to the column.




Yes, it can cut the whole surface but its close.


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## madmodifier (Jan 28, 2019)

f350ca said:


> Scraping the ways probably would be the correct way to correct the problem, but refacing the table was a lot easier and removed a couple of signature marks previous owners had left. On my Peerless there's probably more area on the ram ways than the table top.
> Mine has a universal table?, rotating it to the other face showed the same error so Im pretty sure it was wear in the ways and ram.
> As for grinding the table, it would look pretty but wonder how well parts would clamp to the smooth surface. When your taking a heavy cut there's a lot of force trying to slide the part along the table. Even with a machined surface I often need the stop at the front of the table.
> 
> Greg



Thanks, No universal table on this one.

Now I am thinking that I will remove the box and put it on the surface plate and inspect.

I was just referring grinding as in another type of machine that can resurface it's own table. Though that might be an option size wise for me.


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## madmodifier (Jan 28, 2019)

tcarrington said:


> MadModifier - Latinrascalrg1's approach might be the easiest if the table is out consistently in all positions. I would allow use, further testing, and make some of the setups easier.
> 
> A very interesting problem. Based on the geometry of the machine, it looks like either or both of the up/down or cross ways could be worn enough to allow some "sag". I am assuming the table is lower as it gets further out (ram extended position). I would also take a close look at tracing the same path on the surface when the table is to the left and right positions. That should reveal whether the cross slide is worn, likely in the middle.
> Figuring which surfaces are worn will be require a lot of work and disassembly.
> ...



Thanks, I am certainly going to mesaure more before doing anything. I need to check with the vise on too.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 28, 2019)

The box shaped table should be square, sides square and parallel, and should be square to the vertical reference surface at the front face of the shaper main casting.  The ram ways and ram travel should also be square to the front reference surface.  The reference surface is provided so you have an original plane that does not wear to check the wearing surfaces against.  When new, or when reconditioned, it is common practice to not make the surfaces perfectly square, but to make them slightly high from where they will wear to with use (a milling machine is typically set up with the front of the table .0005" higher than the rear of the table, NOT perfectly square, to allow for wear.)  Guessing for the shaper, .0005" high at the front of the ram ways compared to the rear, and .0005" high at the farthest out top surface corner of the table will allow for some wear before any sag starts to be noticeable, passing through perfectly square along the way as it wears.  Another issue is the weight of the work, which also warps the table downward, the table being slightly high at the outboard end also helps to compensate for the movement caused by the weight of the vise and work.  I would allow another .0005" high at the outer end of the table for the weight, .001" total including the wear allowance.  All this is after making the table gibs and ways for the cross slide fit tightly and properly and with the correct geometry, with no allowances needed.  I checked "Machine Tool Reconditioning" for recommendations for shapers and planers, but there are no chapters in the book for those machines.  Perhaps someone with more experience rebuilding shapers will chime in here as well, I may be off with my suggestions.  Richard King, are you out there?


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## madmodifier (Jan 28, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> The box shaped table should be square, sides square and parallel, and should be square to the vertical reference surface at the front of the shaper.  The ram ways and ram travel should also be square to the front reference surface.  The reference surface is provided so you have an original plane that does not wear to check the wearing surfaces against.  When new, or when reconditioned, it is common practice to not make the surfaces perfectly square, but to make them slightly high from where they will wear with use (a milling machine is typically set up with the front of the table .0005" higher than the rear of the table, NOT perfectly square, to allow for wear.  Guessing for the shaper, .0005" high at the front of the ram ways, and .0005" high at the farthest out top surface corner of the table will allow for some wear before any sag starts to be noticeable, passing through perfectly square along the way.  Another issue is the weight of the work, which also warps the table downward, the table being slightly high at the outboard end also helps to compensate for the movement caused by the weight.  I would allow another .0005" high at the outer end of the table for the weight, .001" total including the wear allowance.  All this is after making the gibs and ways fit tight and properly and with the correct geometry, with no allowances needed.  I checked "Machine Tool Reconditioning" for recommendations for shapers and planers, but there are no chapters in the book for those machines.  Perhaps someone with more experience rebuilding shapers will chime in here as well, I may be off with my suggestions.



Thanks Bob! I did go run my indicator all around the table and it's pretty much .005 high in the front all across. I think a dissasembly and cleaning in the next step.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 28, 2019)

I am originally from Pipestone, MN, in the southwest corner of the state, .  Gotta' help another Minnesotan.  I also invited Richard King to this thread, and Richard is a REAL pro machine re-conditioner, not a wannabe like me.  Richard is also a Minnesotan, Cottage Grove.  I took one of Richard's five day classes, highly worthwhile and recommended...


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## Bob Korves (Jan 28, 2019)

madmodifier said:


> Thanks Bob! I did go run my indicator all around the table and it's pretty much .005 high in the front all across.


High in relation to what, exactly?


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## Richard King 2 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bob and all.  I will read thru this tomorrow as It's late now and I've had Bronchitis so I'm taking some meds.   One thing, as Bod said he do scrape thing out of square.  From wear and on this machine, as the ram feeds out over the base it sags do to weight as it hangs out there.   I will attach a copy of Testing Machine Tools by George Schlesinger .   https://www.scribd.com/document/107621833/Testing-Machine-Tools-Dr-Schlesinger
free 30 day trial....


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## tertiaryjim (Jan 29, 2019)

Madmodifier
To me the geometry of the shaper is still a bit of a mystery.
The ram can pull down into the cut or be pushed up depending on tool geometry and material.
Thats a consideration for any operation you'll do on that machine.
I spent some time searching through Machine Tool Reconditioning and came up with a oil clearance of 0.0005" to 0.00125"  for the ram
ways. This would be for a machine with properly scraped surfaces for oil retention, not a well worn machine, and since I couldn't find
any reference to shapers I determined the clearance from other machines with sliding ways listed in the book.
Perhaps Richard could confirm or correct this figure.
It's easy to check your clearance with a feeler gauge inserted into the ways front and back of the machine and with the ram in at least 
three positions. If you cant slip a 0.0015" gauge in there it's really good.
The vertical column ways of my machine, as best I could measure, leaned back 0.0007"/ft.
This would give rise to the outside of the table but when checking the carriage I found variations of as much as 0.004" that was due to 
original scraping and not wear. this would prevent perfect adjustment of the gibs and could allow the table to sag and move under pressure.
Further, the vice wasn't true and it's surfaces weren't flat.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the machine may not have come from the factory correctly produced and with wear and time you will
have to live with some problems or rebuild it.
If you're not going to rebuild it then check the vice for problems that you can correct and cut the table true with a load attached.
One thing you should check, there are four pieces of felt in the bottom ram ways that should be changed. They help keep the ram lubricated 
and pull trash out of the bottom way. From memory they are 1/4" thick and 3/8" Dia.
The tapered link pins below the ram push out to the right as viewed from the front of the machine. I no longer remember if there
is a set screw but can check my pictures.
A problem with changing those is the shim pack that sets the clearance of the ram ways might be ruined and you will have to cut 
new ones.
You've got a really nice machine there.


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## madmodifier (Jan 29, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> High in relation to what, exactly?


The zero I set near the column side of the table where the ram is fully retracted.


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## madmodifier (Jan 29, 2019)

tertiaryjim said:


> Madmodifier
> To me the geometry of the shaper is still a bit of a mystery.
> The ram can pull down into the cut or be pushed up depending on tool geometry and material.
> Thats a consideration for any operation you'll do on that machine.
> ...



I think I could remove the ram positioning lock down lever and way gib's and remove the whole ram by going strait up. Good to know about these felt pieces. I am not seeing much in the way of literature on these shapers on the web. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Jan 29, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> High in relation to what, exactly?





madmodifier said:


> The zero I set near the column side of the table where the ram is fully retracted.



That makes perfect sense for the table to show High at the far edge opposite of where the ram protrudes and points me to the ram being the part that has the worn "guides."
My Thoughts are that "if" the table was originally parallel to the rams travel and is now High at the farthest point of travel compared to the closest point, i would think as the ram fully extends ,  the forward force is slightly deflected upward which caused the guides to wear on your shaper....at least thats my theory but then again im not quite sure on how they work but i do believe the type of cutter you use would have a part to play in this also....so take it for what its worth.  

If im way off base would someone please explain where my theory fails?


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## Bob Korves (Jan 29, 2019)

madmodifier said:


> The zero I set near the column side of the table where the ram is fully retracted.


Reference everything to the machined and unworn front vertical surface of the main casting.  It is the only rigid unworn plane on the machine and is provided for exactly the purpose of being a reference surface, both at the factory and in the field.  Comparing worn surfaces with worn surfaces is an exercise in futility.


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## madmodifier (Jan 29, 2019)

Bob Korves said:


> Reference everything to the machined and unworn front vertical surface of the main casting.  It is the only rigid unworn plane on the machine and is provided for exactly the purpose of being a reference surface, both at the factory and in the field.  Comparing worn surfaces with worn surfaces is an exercise in futility.



 Can you assist me with how I would sweep the table while using the main casting as a reference? I cannot see how you could check the table in the axis that the ram operates in from the main casting as it is static.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 29, 2019)

Another issue to be considered is that the oil films between the ram and the ram ways will influence sag to some degree during use.  That will make the ram effectively more rigid and with less play when moving.  I have no idea how to measure that except by measuring 'in motion' cut heights vs static tool heights...


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## Bob Korves (Jan 29, 2019)

madmodifier said:


> Can you assist me with how I would sweep the table while using the main casting as a reference? I cannot see how you could check the table in the axis that the ram operates in from the main casting as it is static.


Something as simple as an accurate square held vertically against the main casting and on the table top in line with the ram and used with feeler gauges to measure any gaps could be used to check for relative droop/rise of the table top.


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## tertiaryjim (Jan 29, 2019)

Here is the main body of the shaper. The ways of the vertical column are flat on the surface plate with the top of the casting facing us.
On either side there is a line of five threaded holes for mounting the top plates ( gibs) to hold the ram.
Either side of the hole patterns are the scraped surfaces that the top plates mate to.
On my machine these surfaces were out of plane by about one thou.
Those top plates are hardened. Mine have warped some, probably during the hardening process, but they should pull down when
mounting. I will later consider grinding them true.
The inner ways where the ram runs shows the four holes for the felt. Those measured 0.410" Dia. and 1/8" deep.
The figures I gave from memory in post #20 were wrong.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 29, 2019)

Richard King is still feeling poorly, but he was able to look at Schlesinger's book "Testing Machine Tools", where he found the spec for the geometry of the ram of shapers.  Page 87, fig. 5a, "Movement of ram parallel with work table (table rising at front)  0 to 0.015mm per 300mm (0 to .00075" over 12")"  That is a different spec than I guessed earlier (in post 15 above), my guess was .001", .00025" more.


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## C-Bag (Feb 1, 2019)

As one who's been there and was tempted by the same "fix" I just want to reinforce the caution all those before have advised. When I first went through the old Atlas 7b I acquired it was more like an archeological dig than the quick clean up I thought I was doing. Every new section I went to had a new odd fix that was applied sometime in its murky past. Along with damage done by somebody who either didn't know what they were doing as they were adjusting the stroke or forgot to take something lose before they tried to adjust it. Badly bent and scored gibs, bent lead screw, added shims to one side of the ram and on and on. 

Each one of these intricate machines has its own ideosyncracies of adjustment and operation. Once I got the shims on the ram sorted my most wear was retracted, with almost no wear fully extended. It's also really hard to lift the ram at the end of travel because weight and drag from the mechanism. It helped to back off a bit by counter rotating. The rotating base to the vise was somehow warped. Fixed it and realized I didn't really need it. The jaws on the vise were warped, so replaced them. When I would have deviations in a surface cut I realized it was from play in the cutter head feed moving over time so installed a couple of gib locks and cured that.  I'd also get screwy deviations when I'd not tighten all 8 bolts on the knee after adjusting it to height. 

Bottom line I was glad I didn't just go with my first inclination and do a skim cut on the table when I first started using it.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 1, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Bottom line I was glad I didn't just go with my first inclination and do a skim cut on the table when I first started using it.


Absolutely!  With machine tools, our first guess at what is wrong with something is quite likely to be wrong.  If we jump right on to "fixing" the problem we 'think' we found, we will very often be making matters worse.  First, we must understand how the machine works, even the parts we cannot see.  Then, we must think about all the things that could possibly be causing the problem.  Many machines have been ruined by jumping into a repair before ALL the possible issues are understood and considered.  "First, cause no harm."


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## Superburban (Feb 2, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Once I got the shims on the ram sorted my most wear was retracted, with almost no wear fully extended. It's also really hard to lift the ram at the end of travel because weight and drag from the mechanism.


Great point. My first inclination, is that the most wear would be at the end of the stroke, but after reading your post, it really does make sense that the wear would be at the start.  Glad you posted that.


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## C-Bag (Feb 2, 2019)

Superburban said:


> Great point. My first inclination, is that the most wear would be at the end of the stroke, but after reading your post, it really does make sense that the wear would be at the start.  Glad you posted that.



My job used to be to have to fix stuff I was not familiar with and had no manual for. And truth is the manual for the Atlas is minimal at best. So even though this shaper ran if I cleaned it up and I knew it had problems, from past experience I knew I didn't understand enough to go modifying something so permanently. Even though I was sure that's what was needed. 

I really like the sacrificial plate idea Latinrascalrg1 came up with. Doing a couple of plates that were the maximum width and length of the envelope of what the shaper could do then checking it on the surface plate really demonstrated directly what was gong on. But interpreting it was a whole nuther ball o wax!


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## Bob Korves (Feb 2, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Bottom line I was glad I didn't just go with my first inclination and do a skim cut on the table when I first started using it.


This is the kind of story that rebuilders, restorers, and new users of old equipment should read and understand before making quick and dirty "fixes" that only further degrade the machine.  Thanks for sharing it!

When in doubt... doubt!  Then do your homework, and study and think on it BEFORE tearing into it...


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## C-Bag (Feb 2, 2019)

I feel like that was the main thing Connolly was stressing through the whole book. In mapping out everything it forces you to deeply understand what's going on.  It's a luxury for me to have the time and to run the machine extensively without somebody standing over me looking at the time clock or needing it yesterday.


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## mcostello (Feb 2, 2019)

Looks somehow familiar.


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## ThinWoodsman (Dec 1, 2019)

Was checking the table on my Ammco after adjusting the ram gibs and found that the table was 0.007" lower on the front/outside than on the back/inside. 

Removing and cleaning the top gibs, then re-assembling with the table jacked up on the support as much as it could go, got it down to 0.002" - not perfect but better. The top gibs are only half the story; the bottom gibs are probably as bad as these were, if not worse (and are the ones that control table movement). Probably have to remove the table to get those out, which looked to be too involved of a job for just-before-dinner.

I don't think the issue is wear, as mentioned above, so much as just sag - maybe a decade or two of storage with the vise and who knows what stacked on the table.

Kinda wondering how the OP's adjustment worked out. Did everything just need a good cleaning? Or was a repair necessary?

Also, open to ideas for indicator mounts, as I'll probaby fab one up. A lathe-toolpost indicator holder in the lantern doesn't work well because the clapper moves; today I stuck a Noga to the side of the toolslide, but it is somewhat unstable as the clapper box and slide are of slightly different widths. Thinking an indicol-style shaped to fit the clapper box instead of a bridgeport spindle. In the short term, probably just stick the Noga to the table and put the indicator against the bottom of the ram.


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## C-Bag (Dec 1, 2019)

In the Rudy K vid he had a clamped setup a little like the indicol that clamped to the side of the cutter head. I thought about that but it turns out there is a nice big spot on the Atlas upper front of the cutter head where the mag base can mount as long as I'm careful as its convex shaped and make sure it's straight up and down with no wobble.

You certainly have gotten good results with the ram and the upper table gibs. The lower gibs would be the obvious next step. Does the Aamco knee lock when in use? The Atlas has 8 bolt total that need to be tight and locks the box. I would think with that big block of cast iron that is the body of the shaper sag would not be possible, but what do I know?

Just out of curiosity have your tried truing a block and then checking it on a surface plate? That's where I discovered all my problems. Like Bob pointed out, there are so many moving parts on a shaper it seems to me the final product work piece and independent measurements of the machine go hand in hand as who knows what they do to make it work.


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## ThinWoodsman (Dec 1, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Does the Aamco knee lock when in use?


Yes, there is a lever to lock the knee by the knee gibs. That plus the support leg make it pretty stable, there's definitely no movement in the table.



C-Bag said:


> I would think with that big block of cast iron that is the body of the shaper sag would not be possible, but what do I know?


Perhaps sag is too indelicate a word. The machine was not treated kindly, so it's possible that heavy stuff was stacked on top of it in storage, and that caused the gibs to loosen or warp over years. Not by much, of course - we're talking thousandths.



C-Bag said:


> Just out of curiosity have your tried truing a block and then checking it on a surface plate?


Not yet. My first attempt at truing a block showed that the ram was lifting at the end of the stroke, so I set about doing a few dynamic fixes (shorter stroke, faster speed) before finally tackling the ram gibs. I was setting up to square some hacksawn metal today when I noticed the vise was off by 0.007, but really it was the table, and half an hour later I'm covered in oil - no wonder I never seem to get anything done in the shop


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## C-Bag (Dec 1, 2019)

I know what you mean. I don't know how many times I've gone out to do something and very similar derailments have happened. Mostly trying to get all the bugs out of my old shaper. It will be interesting to see what you come up with because very often even if it's not the same kind of machine a similar problem and a discovered fix has been very helpful. 

I've not gotten all the bugs out of mine but nonetheless it's been a very useful machine.


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## Richard King 2 (Dec 2, 2019)

Be sure to leave some clearance on the tight spots or you will get scored ways.  You need a gap of .0005" per side for oil.    If you would like to take long weekend off in April we are having a scraping Seminar in Vacaville CA.  If a machine is worn...your SOL unless you can scrape it back to new spec's.


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## Nutfarmer (Dec 2, 2019)

Have a utility shaper that looks a lot like yours. Table was out about one and a half thousands low on the front of the table. The table and column were fine. The wear was in the ram and it's ways.


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## tweinke (Dec 2, 2019)

Hey guys, I bought the shaper this spring that Madmodifier posted about from him. I have not had time to sort out the .005 difference but am getting close to having some more free time to explore it. I did remove the ram and did some quick measurements from the surface the top gibs or plates mount and the measurements were all consistent, I tried to measure the ram and it appears to vary but i will need to address that again being I didn't have a decent micrometer to fit where I thought there were unworn surfaces. I have used it to repair a cheap cast vise for a co worker and also played a bit surfacing some scrap that was laying around. needless to say it may be slow but leaves a surface finish that is remarkable. Every time i have run it it leaves a smile on my face so i think a shaper will reside in my little shop for as long as I am around.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Dec 2, 2019)

You're discovered the hypnotic calling of an Awesomely wonderful mechanical Beast that is The "Shaper"!  Something about the rhythmic motion that just draws you in and holds your attention....in some ways its kinda like sitting around a campfire!


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## ThinWoodsman (Dec 5, 2019)

Just to follow up, I put the vise back on the Ammco shaper table today with a 0.002" shim under the outside end of the vise base. Indicator (0.001" plunger ala Shars) showed no (vertical) movement on a thick parallel held in the vise. 

Some day I'll take the table off and monkey around with the bottom gibs to try to take that 0.002 out, but this is more than serviceable.


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## Richard King 2 (Dec 6, 2019)

One of my students and he helps with the VT classes lives in NH.  His name is Warren Jones and if you need some help scraping it, he can I bet.  He does coach hockey though so he is probably busy now....PM me if you want his email.


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## ThinWoodsman (Dec 6, 2019)

Thanks for the offer. I'm not going to consider scraping until I actually take the table off and examine it and the ways. That right there is an investment of time that is months away.


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## C-Bag (Dec 6, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> Thanks for the offer. I'm not going to consider scraping until I actually take the table off and examine it and the ways. That right there is an investment of time that is months away.


+1. I'm more in the camp of useful not perfect. I've come to view my old shaper like how I felt about my dad's old Toyota Landcruiser. It had so many parts when driving down the road it just felt like a bunch of separate parts moving in a parallel trajectory instead all one unit like VW's did. The same with that shaper. It has so many parts all interacting. And I've managed to get my surfaces flat and perpendicular within .001, some within .0005 after much experimenting, inspecting and fixing. Then another run and checking.

 Every time I've taken something apart I've learned something. When I took the table off the gibs were caked in ancient grease and other mitigating factors. I also suspect the base of my shaper to be slightly bent because the stand it is bolted to doesn't support to the end and when I got it the motor pulley cover was gone and the cast iron boss where it was mounted was broken. That indicates to me it fell over. There a slight ding in the end of that base plate too. And when I put the guide foot down my readings when I check the finished part on the surface plate go all screwy. So until I decide to find what the deal is with that I don't use the guide foot. For me it's all about the finished product and repeatability. Something I learned here on HM in thread about using old worn surface grinders.


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## Tim9 (Dec 12, 2019)

I definitely would not cut the box itself. If push comes to shove and you’re convinced that it’s out 0.001 then just attach a sacrificial 1/4” aluminum plate to the top of the box and cut that.  That way you can alway fix properly at a later date by scraping the ram... if you find out that the ram is the true culprit. 
I can’t quite remember exactly what I ran into on my Rhodes shaper, but there were a few screws that bolted to the box that were loose. I tightened these and it seemed to help my issues. But I forget exactly what was exactly going on. These were located above the lower gib and could only be seen when looking at the front of the box from underneath where the vise is bolted to the box. These looked like 1/4” pilaster slotted screws. 
    I’ll try to post a pic later, even though I doubt any of this applies to your issues of high on the far side.


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## C-Bag (Dec 12, 2019)

Once I am sure of all the operating interactions and everything is truly as it should be it might be that one final step to skim the table like how they do on magnetic chucks on surface grinders. What I find interesting is I don't think I've ever seen the damage to the table of a shaper like I see on almost all mill tables. Even though there were quite a few problems with my shaper so far it wasn't wear, it was operator abuse. As I find and fix them things improve.


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