# Upgrade - Shop Air - Quality 60-80gal compressors?



## FlyFishn (Nov 24, 2020)

I have an old 20gal/110v compressor that I am a bit scared to use now - the tank is rusted (stuck a borescope thru a port on the tank). I know where the compressor came from it wasn't overly well taken care of, either, but after researching compressors and seeing the aftermath of compressor tanks going "poof" - I think it wise to retire the one I have. 

That brings me to the thread. 

What I want is an upright/vertical 60-80gal, 240v single phase compressor that won't take up much floor square footage (as opposed to a horizontal) that is going to last, but isn't overly expensive. I don't know if that exists... but I don't want to go to harbor freight or northern tool and just "get a compressor". Though, northern tool does have some nice stuff  (Quincy, IR, at least I'd think they are "better" than not - maybe depending on the series). I don't think I could ever justify a screw compressor so a conventional compressor, though loud, is what I'd be in to.

As far as uses - the highest volume task I do is pull vacuum with an Air Lift on cooling systems (my truck is a 6.7l diesel - somewhere around 6-9gal coolant cap, I think). That is asking too much of the 20gal I have, but I've done it. Other than that - conventional air tool use is what I need it for 97% of the time (impacts, air ratchet) with some painting in there in the other 3% along with the vacuum and occasional rotary tool use (die grinders, sanders, cut off wheels). 

Thoughts from those that may have more varying compressor experience? What to stay away from or what to look harder at? 

I'd look harder at the used market, but what scares me is the maintenance - or lack-there-of. That was what I got when I got my current compressor - already not in good shape, though it is fairly old (not sure how old but maybe 15-30 years). I just want a nice, relatively large compressor that I can trust and won't have to worry about (of course, keep up on the maintenance also).


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## Stonebriar (Nov 24, 2020)

I am a fan of Champion and Quincy compressors. I would NOT buy one from a big box store. I purchased my Champion online from TP tools. It is a 19cfm 80 gallon RV series. It runs great. My largest consumer of air is a CNC plasma cutting table. JMO


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## Liljoebrshooter (Nov 24, 2020)

I am in the same boat.   Been looking for a couple years now.   I just looked at the Ingersoll at tractor supply and the 5hp 80 gallon has a compressor made in China now.   They were from India. 
From my research the low end quincy is the same situation. 
The Saylor Bealle is made about 30 miles from me but the cost is more than 2 times as much.   I just can't justify it for my own use.   It would be different if you have a business that depends on one. 

Joe


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## Gaffer (Nov 24, 2020)

If you're buying new, consider customer service, so buying locally would be my recommendation. If buying used, I would recommend inspecting the tank with a borescope and the drain system. Also looking at the electrical connections for evidence of excessive heat and of course, you'll want to hear it run and cycle. I'd also want to see at least a sample of the oil in it.

As for what size unit to buy, it sounds like your Air Lift and air tools want at least 90 psi. CFM you'll have to calculate based upon how many tools will be running at a time and how often they are running. This is where tank size and the number of stages will come into play - smaller units may be running continuously vs a larger unit that will cycle less frequently. If you're a one-man operation, you might be able to get away with a 60-gallon single-stage unit (about 18 cfm at 90 psi). Whichever unit you choose, buy/build a good dryer system for it. 

This is my opinion when I was shopping a few years ago, and that is unless you are buying an industrial unit, the other stuff is mostly rebranded and built by only a few different manufactures - just like the other machines we buy. Buy from a trusted source. 

And wiring - bigger units require bigger wiring - ask me how I know!


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## pontiac428 (Nov 24, 2020)

Your application will ultimately drive your price.  It sounds like you could get by on a much smaller compressor, maybe in the 2.5 hp range.  I do my own automotive body and paint, plus I have an abrasive blasting cabinet, so I need a non-negotiable real-world 20 CFM minimum.  The cost difference between the two requirements is four- to six-fold.

I'd love to recommend a 15 hp screw compressor to you, but I think you'd do fine with a compact unit due to your usage demands.  Most handheld air tools aren't that hungry for volume.


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## projectnut (Nov 24, 2020)

I would look for a 2 stage compressor.  Kellogg has made literally hundreds of models over the years.  They range in size from 3.4 cfm to 20.2 cfm.  Motors range in HP from .75 to 20.  Be aware that even though a compressor might have a given model of pump there are often a dozen or more versions of that model.  Kellogg only makes (or made) 9 different models of piston pumps, however there are  at least a dozen different versions of some models.  My 311 pump (smallest 2 stage they made) had 15 different versions ranging in cfm from 3.5 to 6.5.  They had maximum pressures ranging from 100 psi to 200 psi and hp ratings from 3/4hp to 1.5 hp.

Here's a spec sheet for the compressors they made.  The 311 is no longer available, but many of the others are.  Although my compressor uses a Kellogg pump it was sold under the name Henke Pacemaker out of Milwaukee WI.


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## Janderso (Nov 24, 2020)

Ingersol Rand 2 stage.


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## Buffalo21 (Nov 24, 2020)

I have a Campbell-Hausfeld 80 gallon two stage, that I bought from Home Depot, it’s been, except for some pressure switch issue, the compressor has been stellar. I‘d buy another in a heartbeat.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 24, 2020)

Gaffer said:


> Whichever unit you choose, buy/build a good dryer system for it.



Any thoughts on ways of keeping water out of the tank? As in - getting moisture out of the intake? I don't know a whole lot about compressors and drying theory - but water condensing in the tank appears to be the long-term killer of a tank/compressor (why mine isn't safe). I am not sure there is a way to alleviate that? I am familiar with keeping lines dry on the output - that is critical for paint work. Though, at the point I'd upgrade compressors improving the set up I have - and replacing the hoses - would be on order also so as to start fresh. 

I like the idea of an in-line oiler, but the other side of that coin is is it would have to be bypassed for paint and vac work. So maybe having a manifold where the oiler could sit inline with a tool hose and other uses could pull off the line upstream of the oiler on a dedicated (dry/no lube) hose.


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## Liljoebrshooter (Nov 24, 2020)

Dry air is another can of worms that can cost as much as the compressor. 
Janderso said the Ingersoll 2 stage.   That is what I have been debating about.   But after reading many very poor feedbacks from people on tractor supply site it makes me kinda hesitant.   Motors burning up and compressors failing and not getting covered by the warranty.   Usually stating is was incorrectly installed or used for a business.   Check it out.  And most state that tractor supply is no help.   It all has to go through IR.
Joe


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## Mitch Alsup (Nov 24, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Any thoughts on ways of keeping water out of the tank? As in - getting moisture out of the intake?



On my first job out of college, I worked in a lab where we had such a beast. The air into the compressor went though what looked like a car intake filter, the output of the compressor was routed to a filter system on the wall, and then into the tank. We changed the filters before the tank once a month, and we changed the filters after the tank twice a year. 

There were t filters on each bank, water separator, oil separator, and micron filters.

The application required very clean air and constant use (24/7/365).

This took the equivalent of a large closet...........


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## pontiac428 (Nov 24, 2020)

Ingersoll-Rand used to make some great stuff.  Unfortunately, they are the head of a huge conglomerate of 30-some odd brands that's only concern is to post profits for their shareholders every quarter.  I boycott IR because of their losing supreme court case that I think was entitled, "F*%k the worker" where they cut loose a guy the day before his retirement vested so they wouldn't have to pay him.  They lost, because that is one of the shallowest things your employer could do.  IR also owns Champion.


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## Gaffer (Nov 24, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Any thoughts on ways of keeping water out of the tank? As in - getting moisture out of the intake? I don't know a whole lot about compressors and drying theory - but water condensing in the tank appears to be the long-term killer of a tank/compressor (why mine isn't safe). I am not sure there is a way to alleviate that? I am familiar with keeping lines dry on the output - that is critical for paint work. Though, at the point I'd upgrade compressors improving the set up I have - and replacing the hoses - would be on order also so as to start fresh.
> 
> I like the idea of an in-line oiler, but the other side of that coin is it would have to be bypassed for paint and vac work. So maybe having a manifold where the oiler could sit inline with a tool hose and other uses could pull off the line upstream of the oiler on a dedicated (dry/no lube) hose.


The tank will have a drain in the bottom, likely similar to a petcock. I mounted my compressor on a concrete pad on the outside wall of my garage, so I replaced the valve with a 90* elbow, extension pipe, and a 1/4 turn ball valve. This way I didn't have to reach under the tank. It's easy and convenient. I regularly open the valve for a few seconds to blow out the water. The nice thing about the elbow is that water will collect in it and not the tank between purging. They also sell electric auto-purge valves that replace the petcock. I only turn on my compressor when I'm using it so it doesn't cycle during the night and bother my neighbors, so the automatic valve doesn't make sense for me. The other thing to consider plumbing the water from the purge valve. If your compressor will be indoors, you'll want to plan for that as it's a little messy.

I plumbed my air into and around my garage with drops in all the right places. I used RapidAir's 3/4" Max Line system. My air comes into the garage, passes through a regulator, desiccant dryer system. The mainline runs around the garage at the top of the walls. Each drop has a manual bleed valve that was included with the RapidAir system. I bought it from Northern Tool. The nice thing about plumbing your garage is that you can set up each drop for dedicated purposes - paint, tools requiring regular oiling, etc. There are lots of plan diagrams on the internet.


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## JohnG (Nov 24, 2020)

I have a 5hp, 3 phase, 2 stage Dayton.  The inspection date stamped on the tank is 1968.  It runs off a rotary phase convertor along with just about everything else in my shop.  Mostly I spray varnish with it.
Every now and then I let the tank depressurize and open the drain plug.  Before I shut the plug, I run the compressor for a minute or so.  This blows out just a bit of nasty sludge each time I do it.  I don't know if you are supposed to do this, but I am glad that stuff isn't in the bottom of the tank.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 24, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I have a 5hp, 3 phase, 2 stage Dayton.  The inspection date stamped on the tank is 1968.  It runs off a rotary phase convertor along with just about everything else in my shop.  Mostly I spray varnish with it.
> Every now and then I let the tank depressurize and open the drain plug.  Before I shut the plug, I run the compressor for a minute or so.  This blows out just a bit of nasty sludge each time I do it.  I don't know if you are supposed to do this, but I am glad that stuff isn't in the bottom of the tank.


Have you looked inside the tank with a borescope? 

If you are getting sludge out the drain you might want to check the integrity of the tank walls. That might be a frightening contraption to have in your shop...

If the sludge is coming out that means it is developing in the tank. Might be wise to inspect it. 

If I could measure the wall thickness of my tank  non-destructively, and economically, I would. But since I can't I say its safest to do away with it ASAP. Not sure what to do in the mean time if I have to work on something - I really don't want to pressurize it but I don't have any other way to run air tools until its replaced.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 24, 2020)

Stonebriar said:


> I am a fan of Champion and Quincy compressors. I would NOT buy one from a big box store. I purchased my Champion online from TP tools. It is a 19cfm 80 gallon RV series. It runs great. My largest consumer of air is a CNC plasma cutting table. JMO



I checked TP Tools and they also carry FS Curtis. That appears to be a US-made compressor also. Any thoughts on the below at $1600?





						FS-Curtis 5HP, 2-Cyl, 2-Stage 60-Gal Air Compressor
					

A Great Value and Built to Last!  You can count on FS-Curtis, just as in 1854, producing reliable long-term, high-quality air compressors that last! Made in USA.   CT-Series 5HP, 2-Cyl, 2-Stage 60-Gallon Vertical Model  MODEL 8700-60DS SPECS:    5 HP 2-stage 60-gallon vertical ASME tank with...




					www.tptools.com
				




There is a single stage version also for a bit less - $1200. 





						FS-Curtis 5HP, 4-Cyl, 1-Stage 60-Gal Air Compressor
					

Perfect for Do-It-Yourselfers and Small Shops!  You can count on FS-Curtis, just as in 1854, producing reliable long-term, high-quality air compressors that last!   CTS-Series 5HP, 4-Cyl, 1-Stage 60-Gallon Vertical Model  MODEL 8700-61DS SPECS:    5 HP 1-stage 60-gallon vertical ASME tank with...




					www.tptools.com
				




I assume the 2 stage designs are better from the stand point of being able to provide higher flows at higher pressures?


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## Aukai (Nov 24, 2020)

I have an 80 gal 5 hp Industrial low RPM quiet power from NAPA, not sure who makes it for them.


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## mksj (Nov 24, 2020)

I do not think the lower cost Curtis compressor is made in the US.

I have had a few 2-stage compressors, it is a matter of how much air, features and price. I figure whatever compressor one buys, I would expect it to probably out live me. Better compressors usually can go 20,000+ hours and are easily serviceable/rebuildable if needed. More important factors are how quiet it is and accessories. I would stick with a 5-7.5 Hp low speed motor (1750 RPM) and low speed pump (500-700 RPM range) highly recommend an after cooler, automatic drain, and magnetic starter.  I prefer US made pumps, simple because the pumps will last longer and they tend to be heavier and quieter. Almost all the mainstream compressor brands the lower end have high speed motors/pumps which cause more noise, heat and often have reliability problems. Granted, if you only use it infrequently, just about any compressor will last you many years.

I had a Curtis CA-5 previously in a compact horizontal 60 gallon tank for many years, it was easier to move and less of an issue with toppling over in earthquake territory. No complaints, other than being a bit loud, the CA-5 pump has been around for decades, all cast iron made in the US. Sold it when I moved to Hawaii. Curtis also make a MasterLine pressurized lubed compressor, they are bullet proof, similar to some of the older Quincy compressors.

Currently I have the Champion HR5-8 advantage version, the vertical model would be the VR5-8, they use mag. starters and are available in single phase 5 or 7.5HP. The Advantage (or deluxe) package includes after cooler, automatic drain, low oil pressure switch, isolation pads, etc.  They are "assembled" in the US, but often parts are sourced from all over so who knows. This is considered their industrial model series, it is also available in a pressure lube series.  They have one piece cylinders and head with a steel liner, so no head gasket, comes with an inter-stage cooler and after cooler, which dramatically reduces the air temperature going into the tank so the water drops out. Mine has an automatic drain valve that works mechanically, but they also have electric ones that cycle at preset intervals. The Champion is a bit quieter than the Curtis, both are very good and will last a lifetime. When I purchased my HR5-8 it specified Baldor motor's but they switched to Marathon, supposedly at the time Baldor was having reliability issues with motor's made in Mexico. I run my compressor on a 50A circuit, probably could get buy with a 40A.

The newer IR compressor (not the industrial ones) seemed to have more negative comments these days, also the lower end Quincy models, but there higher end compressors tend to get much better reviews. They were also more expensive then the Curtis or Champion US made compressors with similar accessories, and Quincy also required you to purchase their service/oil change backs at additional cost to get the full warranty. Another brand that is also considered very good is the Saylor-Beall  VT-735-80  compressors, also made in the USA, but like the Quincy they are around $500+ more than the Champion R5-8 series.

Curtis CA Series: CA5 5-HP 80-Gallon UltraPack Two-Stage Air Compressor








						FS-Curtis FCA05E57V8U-A2L1XX FS- Curtis CA5+ 5-HP 80-Gallon UltraPack Two-Stage Air Compressor 230V 1-Phase
					

Buy FS-Curtis FCA05E57V8U-A2L1XX Direct. Free Shipping. Check the FS- Curtis CA5+ 5-HP 80-Gallon UltraPack Two-Stage Air Compressor (230V 1-Phase) ratings before checking out.




					www.aircompressorsdirect.com
				




Curtis ML Series:  ML5 5-HP 80-Gallon Pressure Lubricated Two-Stage Masterline Air Compressor (230V 1-Phase)








						FS-Curtis FML05D96V8S-A2L1XX ML5 5-HP 80-Gallon Pressure Lubricated Two-Stage Masterline Air Compressor 230V 1-Phase
					

Buy FS-Curtis FML05D96V8S-A2L1XX Direct. Free Shipping. Check the FS-Curtis ML5 5-HP 80-Gallon Pressure Lubricated Two-Stage Masterline Air Compressor (230V 1-Phase) ratings before checking out.




					www.aircompressorsdirect.com
				




Champion Advantage VR5-8, 5HP, Two-Stage 80-Gallon Vertical Air Compressor Unit With Aftercooler








						Champion Advantage VR5-8, 5HP, Two-Stage 80-Gallon Vertical Air Compressor Unit With Aftercooler - Air Power Equipment OKC
					

10/31/22 In stock in Oklahoma City.   Champion R-Series Compressor pumps have a time-tested, proven design. Rugged standard features, a wide selection of configurations, and quality available options make the R-Series compressors the solution to your application. Delivering high performance...




					www.aircompressorcfm.com
				




Saylor-Beall VT-735-80, note things like mag starters, after-coolers, tank drains are all extra.





						Two-Stage Vertical Tank Air Compressor [VT-735-80-1] - $3,575.91 :  Westech Equipment - Since 1971
					

Westech Equipment - Since 1971 Two-Stage Vertical Tank Air Compressor [VT-735-80-1] -



					westechequipment.com
				




As far as dry air, you can get a refrigerated air dryer at considerable expense if you need absolutely dry air, followed by a particle filer and coalescing filter. I just use a Norgren dual air filter system and regulator, and between the compressor after-cooler and dual filters I have never had any water in my shop compressor line drains. I picked up the filter's on eBay, you do need to know the specific model numbers, and also the pressure ratings. These have steel bowels with a site gauge, automatic water drains and indicators if the filters are clogged. Surprisingly, I only get a few drops of water in the first particle filter.


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## Boswell (Nov 24, 2020)

I got an old Curtis C90 off of Craigs list a number of years ago. I had to replace the motor some time back and I mounted it on an 80 gal tank but the pump is is great condition and older than I am.


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## Larry$ (Nov 24, 2020)

I can tell right off I'm going to be coming from a different perspective. I had a shop with expensive equipment that required continuous air. What that means is that air storage capacity doesn't mean squat. 80 gallon or 200 gallon only means that you might have just a couple of extra minutes of peak air flow. Unless you are running a screw compressor, you should not run a compressor continuously, the heat will degrade the oil, among other issues. A screw can run 24 hours a day. As for single stage or two stage, little is to be gained with a two stage if your CFM requirements are met with a single stage. Compressing air to higher pressures and then using it at only 90 psi wastes energy. But if you only use air very intermittently, having the higher storage pressure will give you some short term cushion. When you go shopping for a compressor, look at the cfm produced at standard conditions, 90 psi. There are a lot of "cheater" "5"hp units out there. Look up what the electrical draw of a quality US made motor has and compare that to the "5" hp or whatever size you are considering. CFM/hp is a starting point for comparisons.

We had two 10hp Quincy's on 120 gal tanks that were OK,  but were always running short of air. They were running on an alternator, didn't do much good since both had to run most of the time.  Replaced with a 25hp Quincy screw that produced more air @ 125 psi. It was a poor quality machine and suffered several design issues. The 10 HP recips were pretty good. We had an air to air cooler, refrigerated drier, coalescing filter, then line regulator. At expensive machines we had desiccant driers and filters.

If you live in a dry area, water in your air will likely not be much of an issue. Life of air tools, CNCs and the like will be reduced if they are fed wet air. Also painting with wet or contaminated air will introduce defects in the finish.  I know of only two ways to get dry air, refrigerated or desiccant. A water trap doesn't dry the air. Ideally you will use a  coalescing filter to get rid of oil and most other garbage in the air stream.

Use good system design to minimize problems. Do not use PVC piping. Copper or Aluminum are corrosion resistant. Pex fittings introduce restrictions on air flow so you will need larger sizes to offset. They also cause moisture traps that keep water in the system.  Have all lines slope toward drains. Only take air off the top of a pipe, never the bottom.  A loop system is best when more than one tool is in use at a time, it also allows a smaller pipe to be used since flow can come from two directions.  Kaeser has a very good system design page on their web site.  Yes, this post is over the top but it doesn't hurt to have a better understanding of getting the most from your investment in air.


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## tq60 (Nov 24, 2020)

We also have a champion, 2 stage, 80 gal upright 7.5 hp.

Intercooler between stages and before tank.

Mag starter and auto tank drain. 

Baldor motor.

Overkill yes, but building units got old and got a bonus one year, buy and cry one time.

Look at industrial and farm supply, not TSC but local supply.

Ours was maybe 12 years ago, $1900 or so, the 5 hp TSC unit was 1600 or so and we could order the 7.5 hp version for maybe 2100 but no auto drain or intercooler to tank.

Homeowner model where ours is commercial grade.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## sdelivery (Nov 24, 2020)

I like Quincy Recpicating compressors.
They were the best reciprocating (piston) compressor made.
I personally would not buy a two stage compressor. 
First they generate more moisture in the air.
They build higher pressures than 99% of equipment requires.
Air tools and sand blasting require volume (cfm) not high pressure.
My home shop uses a Quincy 240 and will produce 125 psi max and 23 cfm! Tools run strong for extended periods and sandblasting doesn't require waiting for the compressor to catch up.
Reservoir sizing can help smaller compressors to act bigger, that small compressors is cycling to frequently? add another small reservoir.


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## Winegrower (Nov 24, 2020)

A friend GAVE me an old but well cared for IR 2 stage 5HP, horizontal 80 gallon, T30 I believe.  It is 1980’s vintage.   I replaced my similarly old but completely neglected Sears 2HP horizontal on wheels, that just would not quit.

This Ingersoll Rand compressor is terrific.   I built a Lean-to shed with concrete pad outside the shop, so it’s very quiet, almost inaudible inside.   But I mainly just use air for blowing chips out of sight and running the mill and lathe misters.   I got all the leaks out of the plumbing and it only turns on for...I timed it...a minute 30 seconds once every couple days.   I added an auto-unloader valve that reduced the starting current significantly.

Having plumbed air throughout is so convenient and the overhead pulldown reel with air chuck is fun to use, comparatively.  I almost want to check visitors tires, but not quite.

i’ve been considering some kind of auto drain, but so far too lazy to do the research.


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## sdelivery (Nov 25, 2020)

I believe McMaster carried offers a automatic drain but It is expensive  (125.00)
You can make one with a solenoid and two electric timer relays.


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## projectnut (Nov 25, 2020)

I used a cheap single stage compressor for years, and had no problems when the required pressure was below 90 psi.  The thing worked hard, and didn't sound all that great, but it did the job for over 25 years.  It's major limitation was the maximum pressure it could put out. 

When airing up the tires on the trucks or motorhome it just wasn't up to the job.  The maximum pressure the pump would put out was 125 psi.  While it was high enough to do most of the vehicles it struggled for those that needed 110 psi to 125 psi.  If the tire(s) needed to be topped off (especially in cold weather) it took forever.  Since the differential between what the compressor could put out and the pressure needed was minimal the tank had to be charged to the maximum. 

Once the pressure was near the differential point air flow was reduced to a minimum.  The tank pressure had to go down to 80 psi (highest the switch could be set for) before the compressor would restart.  I had to constantly bleed off air to get it down to the start pressure.  Then I had to wait for the tank to build to full pressure before I could continue to fill the tires.

One downside of a single stage compressor is no pressure relief (unloader) valve between the head and the tank.  The compressor has to start at whatever  pressure is in the tank.  It's difficult for the motor to start the pump when pressures are above 80 psi, so that's generally the highest setting available to restart it.

On a 2 stage pump the unloader eliminates that problem allowing the pump to be started with no head pressure.  Thus the minimum kick in pressure can be set higher.

Here's a tutorial from Quincy as when to best use single and 2 stage compressors

Single Stage vs. Two Stage Air Compressors | Quincy Compressor

As for automatic tank drains there are several on the market ranging in price from $65.00 to over $200.00.  I have no experience with any of them so I can't comment on their quality or reliability


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## sdelivery (Nov 25, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I used a cheap single stage compressor for years, and had no problems when the required pressure was below 90 psi.  The thing worked hard, and didn't sound all that great, but it did the job for over 25 years.  It's major limitation was the maximum pressure it could put out.
> 
> When airing up the tires on the trucks or motorhome it just wasn't up to the job.  The maximum pressure the pump would put out was 125 psi.  While it was high enough to do most of the vehicles it struggled for those that needed 110 psi to 125 psi.  If the tire(s) needed to be topped off (especially in cold weather) it took forever.  Since the differential between what the compressor could put out and the pressure needed was minimal the tank had to be charged to the maximum.
> 
> ...


All Quincy compressors single and two stage have unloaded, in fact a quick walk down the compressor aisle and one of my favorite stores, all the compressors had unloaders.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 25, 2020)

projectnut said:


> Here's a tutorial from Quincy as when to best use single and 2 stage compressors
> 
> Single Stage vs. Two Stage Air Compressors | Quincy Compressor



I got a good laugh at this. Snipit from their section on Woodworking:


> However, for all the tools that require such exertion, there’s a pneumatic equivalent that will bear the brunt of the task in question. Imagine being able to cut each board and drill each hole evenly and easily in a matter of seconds; it’s all possible with air-powered saws and drills. All you have to do is hold the tool in place and the airpower does the rest — no strained wrists, no overworked shoulders or elbows. Best of all, each application is accomplished so fast that there’s little time to slip or ruin a project.



I have never seen pneumatic woodworking tools such as saws, drills, and sanders actually being used in any of the school and home shops I've ever been in/worked in. Nail guns, yes - but that is on a whole other level (smaller level) than the air consumption of a saw or drill. That said, I do have a pneumatic key chuck 3/8 drill (reversible) - because it came with the lot I bought. I wouldn't have bought it just to add one to the collection otherwise. Maybe in industry that already has a manufacturing area equipped to run air power it might be more common to see those types of tools, but everything I've ever seen, mainstream woodworking-wise, has always been electric - and beyond hand tools they are 240v, if not 3-phase.


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 25, 2020)

I am also looking to purchase a 60-80 gallon vertical compressor. I am looking at the Kobalt that is offered at Lowes. But without having used one, I could not make any recommendation on a specific brand.

Sadly you cannot go by name these days. Most, if not all the compressor manufactures have several levels of compressors. The lower priced ones are most assuredly going to have the compressor made overseas, most likely China as well as the motors and switches. The only thing these have in common with their big brothers is the name.

What I will do is make this recommendation and it all depends on what you want to spend:
1) Get a *Two Stage Compressor*,  In general, two-stage air compressors are more efficient, run cooler and deliver more CFM than their single-stage counterparts.
2) *Motor Speed*, this is where you can spend a lot more money, compressors motors that run slower 1740RPM vs 3450RPM. The slower motor will generally have longer bearing life and will run quieter than the faster motor. Although it seems you will pay for this benefit at least from my research.
3) *Vertical Tank*, the vertical tank will take up less real estate and will concentrate the moisture at the bottom and farthest point away from the outlet. This make draining the tank much easier and more complete compared to the horizontal. The bad part is that you will most surely need to anchor the vertical compressor to ensure it remains upright.
4) *Air Dryer*, this depends on what you will use it for. A simple inline air dryer with a drain will do for most air tool operations. If you are going to paint, then additional drying will be required but only for the application. No need to dry all the air to that point. The best way to control moisture in the air is to use the Zig Zag method when installing your piping. Run the pipe up the wall then drop it for your outlet, be sure to extend the pipe at least 2-3 feet below the hose quick connect and put a ball valve to remove any moisture that collects. Repeat this as you go down the line. Be sure to install a drain valve at any low points where what can collect.


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## Packard V8 (Nov 25, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> If I could measure the wall thickness of my tank  non-destructively, and economically, I would. But since I can't I say its safest to do away with it ASAP. Not sure what to do in the mean time if I have to work on something - I really don't want to pressurize it but I don't have any other way to run air tools until its replaced.


1. A borescope is of limited ability to provide meaningful evaluation of the tank condition.  Most tanks will have surface rust inside, but is it actually compromising the tank bottom?
2. A simple, inexpensive sonic test is non-destructive.  That's what the city inspector uses and charges businesses $100 per tank.  Ask around.  Most engine, welding and metal shops have hand-held sonic testers.

jack vines


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## projectnut (Nov 25, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> I got a good laugh at this. Snipit from their section on Woodworking:
> 
> 
> I have never seen pneumatic woodworking tools such as saws, drills, and sanders actually being used in any of the school and home shops I've ever been in/worked in. Nail guns, yes - but that is on a whole other level (smaller level) than the air consumption of a saw or drill. That said, I do have a pneumatic key chuck 3/8 drill (reversible) - because it came with the lot I bought. I wouldn't have bought it just to add one to the collection otherwise. Maybe in industry that already has a manufacturing area equipped to run air power it might be more common to see those types of tools, but everything I've ever seen, mainstream woodworking-wise, has always been electric - and beyond hand tools they are 240v, if not 3-phase.



I think the era of pneumatic saws, drills, and such has come and gone.  As a kid I worked in a GM truck plant.  Almost all the tools were pneumatic.  The plant had a huge compressor building with multiple compressors.  They even had several that ran with vegetable oil as a lubricant rather than petroleum oil.  In those days piston compressors were the standard and there was always some blow by at the piston rings.   The compressors using veggie oil were dedicated to breathing apparatus..  The paint lines and grinding stations all required employees to wear hoods with piped in air for breathing.

Even in later years pneumatic saws were common in meat packing plants.  The electric saws hadn't yet advanced to the point they could be safely used in a wet production atmosphere.  The downside of air tools was they were big, bulky, and heavy.  I think they have been by in large replaced by electrics in production situations, and battery powered electrics at the shop level.


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## Larry$ (Nov 25, 2020)

It may be time to define terms. An air drier will dry air by reducing the water vapor available to the point where it will not condense in to liquid water for the intended use.  Here's the catch, water vapor changes into water liquid when the dew point is reached. Cool the air and the dew point will be reached at some point, the drips on your cold beer can. When the pressure is rapidly reduced at the point of use, cooling takes place. The same system that most refrigerators use. So even if you use a water separator trap there will still be water vapor in the line that will condense at the point of use. Does it matter? Not for many things. BUT bearings in air tools, air cylinders and controls, painting... are all affected, none for the better.


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## Packard V8 (Nov 25, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I think the era of pneumatic saws, drills, and such has come and gone.  . . . . I think they have been by in large replaced by electrics in production situations, and battery powered electrics at the shop level.


Yes, No, Maybe.  

No, I haven't seen an air-powered circular saw in a long while
Yes, air powered grinders, cut-offs, drills, impact guns, torque guns are still very common.  Because air tools can be smaller and more powerful and torque-controlled, they're still very common in shop environments.

In production lines, it depends upon access, frequency and size/speed.  If an assembler is crawling inside a car body to work under the dash, he's probably putting in fasteners with a battery tool  If he's standing beside the chassis, it's probably an air tool.

We're even still using one old air hoist which refuses to give up.

jack vines


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## tq60 (Nov 25, 2020)

Last home built unit had a 4 cyl single stage with 5hp on a horizontal tank.

Worked well but have a need "sometimes" for more than120 psi.

Problem with operating tank pressure in the optimum single stage pressure is the cut in pressure is below good operating pressure for many devices so the speed and power varies.

Wished we would have kept the pump and motor as we could have mounted it and used the tank on the big one, but that would take space and the money was too good to pass.

Other issue with single stage is almost all are built to price point, and that is consumer retail.

Lower grade everything.

Commercial units are built to work, all day, every day.

Price can be close, ours was cheaper as there was local competition and it was end of year sale.

It still looks and works like new at 12 or so years old and will out live us and the grand kids 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## 7milesup (Nov 25, 2020)

I used two "A" coils from a house air conditioner system to fabricate a water separator.   Have not had water in my lines since.  Works great.  My friend saw what I did and ended up fabricating one for him too, although he got fancy and used a timer to auto-drain his separator.


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## 7milesup (Nov 25, 2020)

What about a scroll compressor?
Eastwood Scroll compressor
They have a bigger one too...  Bigger Eastwood scroll compressor


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## FlyFishn (Nov 26, 2020)

7milesup said:


> What about a scroll compressor?
> Eastwood Scroll compressor
> They have a bigger one too...  Bigger Eastwood scroll compressor



Not sure on the scroll compressor idea. My 20gal is a horizontal cart like that is so for sure it takes up more space. I'm wanting something I can stick up right in a corner out of the way.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 26, 2020)

Heres a cheap solution to the tank issue - convert a water heater tank:






Just joking. There isn't a chance on the planet I'd want that bomb in my garage. Holy cow. The compressor tank I have now is scary enough...


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## Larry$ (Nov 26, 2020)

Keith Rucker hydro tests a tank. Maybe the hot water heater would work, if tested.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 26, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> Keith Rucker hydro tests a tank. Maybe the hot water heater would work, if tested.



Interesting idea. That isn't a bad idea to try. We have a small electric pressure washer. I am not sure if I can adapt it to get it on the tank to pressurize it, but it might be worth a try. I would think any pressure washer would be well over the pressure of an air compressor.


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## projectnut (Nov 26, 2020)

I'm not sure I would ever trust a hot water heater.  Municipal water pressure is usually in the 65 psi to 95 psi range.  When we built our current house we were only the second or third in the subdivision.  We were considering having an irrigation system installed so we called a couple vendors to get estimates.  They came out and tested the water pressure (we are directly down hill of the water tower), and found it to be 125 psi.  They all cautioned they would need to install a pressure regulator and also mentioned the high pressure would shorten the life of the water heater.

We didn't give it much thought, and decided not to go with the irrigation system due to the cost.  Things went on as normal for a few years.  When we came home from a vacation about 5 years later we found we didn't have any hot water.  I went down to the basement to find the tank had a 12" crack about 2/3 the way up on the tank.  Fortunately the escaping water had drowned out the burner, and shut off the gas.

The next water heater we installed included a pressure regulator at the inlet.  That one lasted over 20 years.  We're now on the third water heater, but since the subdivision is now complete the regulator is no longer necessary.  Water pressure hovers in the 80 psi to 90 psi range depending on water use.

I like the idea of pressure testing.  I have 2 pressure washers.  The smaller one is capable of 2,200 psi, and the larger is capable of 3,200 psi.  The smallest one I've seen is capable of 1,200 psi.  The big difference is in the GPM output.  The smaller ones are usually around 1 GPM to 1.3 GPM while the largest commercial ones I've seen can put out over 10 GPM.  Depending on output it could take 8 minutes, or 80 minutes to fill the tank.


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## Packard V8 (Nov 26, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I like the idea of pressure testing.  I have 2 pressure washers.  The smaller one is capable of 2,200 psi, and the larger is capable of 3,200 psi.  The smallest one I've seen is capable of 1,200 psi.  The big difference is in the GPM output.  The smaller ones are usually around 1 GPM to 1.3 GPM while the largest commercial ones I've seen can put out over 10 GPM.  Depending on output it could take 8 minutes, or 80 minutes to fill the tank.


Fill the tank with water from a garden hose, then connect the pressure source.  I've seen a common hand operated grease gun used to generate enough overpressure to certify a tank.

jack vines


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## mksj (Nov 26, 2020)

There have been injuries and deaths due to tank failures, both air compressor and water heaters. Usually with compressors it is poor maintenance and accumulation of water in the tank causing corrosion, often worse with cheaper models. Problem is that these failures usually occur years later, and even with hydro testing it may not reveal a weakening in the tank. Water heater tanks are ceramic lined steel, the main failure is when the galvanic rods start to go and then the tank starts to rust from micro fractures in the lining.  In most cases this creates a fracture line which seeps water. In one house we had both water heaters fail at around 10 years, measured the house water pressure line an we were at 120 PSI. Although there are pressure ratings as to burst strength, and working pressure, you are much better off with a water pressure in the 60 PSI range. Anyone using water heater as an air pressure vessel, do not expect your homeowners insurance to cover anything, wouldn't trust my life on it.





						ACE Program: California Case Report 05CA010 | NIOSH | CDC
					

On July 23, 2005, at approximately 9:20 a.m., a 46-year-old Hispanic car wash supervisor died when an air tank exploded inside an equipment room.




					www.cdc.gov
				











						Can Your Water Heater Explode? Warning Signs & Prevention
					

A hot water heater explosion can cause serious damage, physical injury, and even death. Thankfully, there are very clear preventative measures and warning signs




					americanhomewater.com
				








So quite a bit of discussion as too size of compressor and single vs. two stage, let alone a rotary/scroll compressor. It all comes down to ones air needs, type of air equipment being used, frequency of use an cost. It was already mentioned that single stage reciprocating compressors for the most part are made to a low cost point, typically are louder and usually last maybe 2000 hours before needing to be rebuilt or tossed. Noise and frequency of run times are my biggest complaints of these compressors. If you have air equipment, they typically run at 90-100 PSI and with some air drop in lines, I have my main air regulator set to 125 PSI with 3/4" air lines and then  use separate air regulators locally. A standard single stage compressor would have no reserve and turn on every time I use air. Hate the noise and frequency. A two stage compressor typically turns on at 135 PSI off at 175 PSI, so with an 80 gallon tank, the compressor cycles much less frequently and the refill time for mine is maybe 2 minutes. They are all going to pump about the same amount of air for a given "real" Hp, a 5 Hp two stage is going to be around 16-17 CFM at 175 PSI and around 20 CFM at 125 PSI. The same air pumps are often used for both 5 Hp and 7.5 Hp models, they just increase the pump speed. A rotary/scroll are quiet and usually have a reservoir tank but will be running a lot of the time, typically quite expensive but good for high volume continuous air. On a two stage compressor, the difference of having an after cooler to drop out the moisture out is significant. Haven't seen any single stage or lower priced compressors fitted with one, but do recall some home built cooling loop out of the compressor with a cyclone type water separator.

In the shop like today in 4 hours using my air collet changer, air gun for clearing chips and continuous air chip system on my mill while machining my compressor probably ran for a total of 10 minutes. Previously I had one of those Dewalt 225 PSI  15 gal that ran frequently and it drove me nuts. There are other much quieter compressors if you needs are needs are minimal and/or only have 120VAC.


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 26, 2020)

Hot Water Heater Tanks, can reach far above the pressure of the water source as a result of the burner heating the water. It does not take much heat to increase pressure. Water Heater Tanks are fitted with a 150psi relief valve. They also suffer from stress more than air compressors as a result of heat from the burner and then cold water entering to replacing the hot water that is used. It has been long identified that a water heater is essentially a bomb that we keep in our homes. Should the thermostat malfunction it is very possible that you could exceed the safe operating pressure, which could rise above the pressure of the relief valve which have been known to fail do to mineral and sediment deposits.

The best preventative maintenance that you can do is to drain and flush the tank once a year. Although that is rarely done and I am as guilty as the next guy. But all those minerals and sediment that separate from the water during the constant heating and cooling build up in the bottom where the heat is applied essentially causing that area to be heated far more than it was designed. That sediment displaces the water where the heat is applied resulting in a thick mud void of circulating water and most of the cooling to the surface of the tank. This is what generally causes a water heater to burst just above this area as the differential in temperature puts major stresses on the metal and welds.

I would never use a water heater for an air tank. You don't know the condition of the tank, how it was cared for or if it suffered from overheat which weakens the metal.

Just my $0.02 worth.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 26, 2020)

mksj said:


> ACE Program: California Case Report 05CA010 | NIOSH | CDC
> 
> 
> On July 23, 2005, at approximately 9:20 a.m., a 46-year-old Hispanic car wash supervisor died when an air tank exploded inside an equipment room.
> ...



Not an applicable case. 

From the case:


> An evaluation performed by an independent failure analysis laboratory, paid for by the insurance carrier for the compressor manufacturer, *found products of combustion in the air tank and a rupture pattern of the tank walls that was consistent with an explosion rather than rupture. *



Bold added. 

If you read the case the cause of the combustion was due to an improper lubricant that caused combustible vapor to develop inside the tank. 

Regardless, it is still an example of a tank exploding, however the cause was not corrosion weakening the tank to the point of failure as is my concern.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 26, 2020)

Here are a couple references of exploding air compressors:














						Metropolitan Engineering Consulting and Forensics - CAUSE OF EXPLOSION OF AIR COMPRESSOR TANKS
					

CAUSE OF EXPLOSION OF AIR COMPRESSOR TANKS




					sites.google.com


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## mksj (Nov 26, 2020)

I did read the full report NIOSH report, I recall when the case when it first reported along with a few others, it is more to demonstrate the impact of a tank failure no matter what the cause. As with many catastrophic failures there are often a number of contributing factors. Through a process of failure analysis we try to reduce risk, but if a pressurized vessel fails it can cause significant damage, and many individuals ignore routine maintenance as well as draining the tanks regularly.


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## SSage (Nov 27, 2020)

The kinda "cheap" two stage compressor from TSC has served me well. I run mine almost daily in my home shop. The compressors are made in India I think.  80 gallon / 220 volt. Put a ball valve on the tank drain and dump the pipe in a bucket. I have never rusted out a tank yet. Its usually the pressure switches and motors that fail first. So far I haven't killed a compressor on the 80 gallon version, I have lost compressors on smaller 20 gallon cheapos. I change the oil a couple times a year. They need proper wiring too, I always overkill the wire size and use a dedicated circuit breaker. Don't let those compressors recieve low voltage or share stove, dryer or whatever, good way to kill the motor way early.


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## SSage (Nov 27, 2020)

Here is the one I'm referring too: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/ingersoll-rand-80-gallon-5-hp-reciprocating-air-compressor


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## Liljoebrshooter (Nov 27, 2020)

That is the exact one I have been looking at.   The one at my local store has a compressor made in China on it. 

Joe


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## Downunder Bob (Nov 27, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I used a cheap single stage compressor for years, and had no problems when the required pressure was below 90 psi.  The thing worked hard, and didn't sound all that great, but it did the job for over 25 years.  It's major limitation was the maximum pressure it could put out.
> 
> When airing up the tires on the trucks or motorhome it just wasn't up to the job.  The maximum pressure the pump would put out was 125 psi.  While it was high enough to do most of the vehicles it struggled for those that needed 110 psi to 125 psi.  If the tire(s) needed to be topped off (especially in cold weather) it took forever.  Since the differential between what the compressor could put out and the pressure needed was minimal the tank had to be charged to the maximum.
> 
> ...


You can fit a simple home made unloader to a single stage, just a simple solenoid valve fitted in the discharge pipe between the compressor and the tank, you will need to make sure the non return valve at the tank entry is sealing well.  that is open with power off and close with power on. Even though the valve will close as soon as the pressure.  switch closes the line is empty of pressure, so the compressor can build up speed before there is any significant pressure in the line. This will also ensure that your compressor stops on cut out with little to no pressure.


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## tq60 (Nov 27, 2020)

Many pressure switches have unloader built in.

Add check valve to tank and done.

The TSC unit does not have a mag starter, anything over 2 hp should have this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 27, 2020)

Another thing to keep in mind when deciding on a compressor and the pressure it produces.

The ratings are based on the pressure and flow at the tank outlet. You will loose pressure and volume the longer the run. So if you have to have 90psi with 10cfm at a point that is 50-100 feet down the line you should consider a compressor that reaches 175psi at the tank. I know that someone will indicate that there shop is not that big, but keep in mind that is the length of stationary line from the tank to the point you connect an air hose and then you have the air hose length that is coiled up on the ground to deal with.

Part of the compressor system is the feed lines, oversizing the stationary lines that feed the various outlets.


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## 7milesup (Nov 27, 2020)

This is what I did for my very basic Sanborn 30 gallon air compressor.  I was tired of getting water splatters in my lacquer finishes but I certainly do not have the money for a true air drier.  
It works very well and has eliminated my water issues.  It cost me $30.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 27, 2020)

7milesup said:


> This is what I did for my very basic Sanborn 30 gallon air compressor.  I was tired of getting water splatters in my lacquer finishes but I certainly do not have the money for a true air drier.
> It works very well and has eliminated my water issues.  It cost me $30.



Excellent! 

Can you post more pictures of how you plumbed it in? I assume that is post-compressor, pre-tank?


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## 7milesup (Nov 27, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Excellent!
> 
> Can you post more pictures of how you plumbed it in? I assume that is post-compressor, pre-tank?



Yep, I will.  I need to go back out to the shop and get some more pics.


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## 7milesup (Nov 27, 2020)

Here are some more pictures.  The line of pressurized air comes out of the compressor and is "Y"'d  as it enters the top of the condenser unit. The top of the condenser is cooled by both the compressor and motor fans. After the compressor has been running for a while the top coil or so of the condenser is hot but quickly cools down. By the third coil it is almost ambient temperature. The cooled air exits at the bottom where it hits a "T".  The bottom of the T goes to a drip leg and the top line goes to the tank. There is a valve at the bottom of drip leg of course. 
Since this is an AC coil, the condenser is rated for high pressure.
As I mention before, I made one exactly like mine for my friend.  His looks a lot better than mine. I made an angle iron frame with expanded metal as a guard and I used copper pipe instead of tubing. Mine was more a proof of concept that worked better than my expectations.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 27, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Here are some more pictures.  The line of pressurized air comes out of the compressor and is "Y"'d  as it enters the top of the condenser unit. The top of the condenser is cooled by both the compressor and motor fans. After the compressor has been running for a while the top coil or so of the condenser is hot but quickly cools down. By the third coil it is almost ambient temperature. The cooled air exits at the bottom where it hits a "T".  The bottom of the T goes to a drip leg and the top line goes to the tank. There is a valve at the bottom of drip leg of course.
> Since this is an AC coil, the condenser is rated for high pressure.
> As I mention before, I made one exactly like mine for my friend.  His looks a lot better than mine. I made an angle iron frame with expanded metal as a guard and I used copper pipe instead of tubing. Mine was more a proof of concept that worked better than my expectations.



Thanks for the detail. That is awesome. With the copper you don't have to worry about it getting wet and sitting wet then rusting through. 

Is there ever any water in the main compressor tank? I assume you check it every so often. I would imagine the radiator gets the vast majority of the water out but perhaps not all?


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## 7milesup (Nov 27, 2020)

True, there is still a small amount of water in the main tank.  I drained both yesterday actually (I do that quite often) and got quite a bit out of the drain leg (maybe an ounce) but just a few drops out of the main tank.  Of course it is now winter up here so the air is dryer.
If I was going to do it over again I would make my drip leg a little longer maybe.  But, that is a trade off too, because you want the line going to the tank to be long enough to have the water run back down into the drip leg.
Oh, and if I was doing it over, I would make my piping look better.  LOL.


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## Buffalo21 (Nov 27, 2020)

The auto drain on my air compressor, blows for 4 seconds every hour, 24/7/365. The air then goes through 2 stage desiccant filter.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 27, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> The auto drain on my air compressor, blows for 4 seconds every hour, 24/7/365. The air then goes through 2 stage desiccant filter.



How do you keep the desiccant dry? Or, rather, how do you dry it out and recondition it?


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## Buffalo21 (Nov 28, 2020)

I go through about 4-5 # of desiccant a month, I just replace it. I tried to to recondition it, but the time, cost, effort, the smell in the oven, its just easier and cheaper to replace it


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## FlyFishn (Nov 28, 2020)

Buffalo21 said:


> I go through about 4-5 # of desiccant a month, I just replace it. I tried to to recondition it, but the time, cost, effort, the smell in the oven, its just easier and cheaper to replace it



That doesnt make any sense to me yet. Does the desiccant keep water out of the tank or keep it out of the air line post-tank? 

When I did my welder restoration I ended up with at least 1/2 gallon of water in the tank. I find it hard to imagine desiccant can absorb that quantity of water.


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## Buffalo21 (Nov 28, 2020)

The desiccant filter is downstream of the air compressor, I use it to keep the air dry to the plasma cutters., the automatic drain keeps the water out of the tank, the desiccant filter is just an additional filter assembly in between the air compressor and the plasma cutters, used to keep the air as dry as possible.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 30, 2020)

I went browsing some manufacturers lines and came across this rotary compressor:








						Champion/Hydrovane, 5 HP Rotary Vane Air Compressor 1-Phase 80 Gallon Tank Mnt. | LV04PURVS‐8 (1)
					

<p><strong>BRAND NEW:</strong>  Champion 5 hp Rotary Vane Air Compressor offering 16 CFM @ 150 PSI or 19.5 CFM @ 100 PSI, 80 Gallon Tank Mounted System</p>




					www.compressorworld.com
				




The lower noise is pretty compelling, but at over 3 times more expensive I am not sure it can be justified. They want $5130. The FS Curtis linked to before is $1600 (2 stage, 60gal, 15.9cfm @ 175psi). 




__





						FS-Curtis 5HP, 2-Cyl, 2-Stage 60-Gal Air Compressor
					

A Great Value and Built to Last!  You can count on FS-Curtis, just as in 1854, producing reliable long-term, high-quality air compressors that last! Made in USA.   CT-Series 5HP, 2-Cyl, 2-Stage 60-Gallon Vertical Model  MODEL 8700-60DS SPECS:    5 HP 2-stage 60-gallon vertical ASME tank with...




					www.tptools.com
				




For the frequency I'll use it at this point I am thinking the FS Curtis is still the route to go. We'll see. I'm hoping by the end of the winter I can get something.


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## 7milesup (Nov 30, 2020)

Fly.... I think you should fabricate a rotary vane compressor.  I mean, we are machinists here!  

Ok, the gauntlet has been thrown....


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## FlyFishn (Nov 30, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Fly.... I think you should fabricate a rotary vane compressor.  I mean, we are machinists here!
> 
> Ok, the gauntlet has been thrown....



As much as I do like making things, at this point I don't have the necessary machines to make the parts - lathe and mill, namely. 

At some point in my future I will have a mill and a lathe. I would probably end up with a lathe first. That is way down the road, though.


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## FlyFishn (Nov 30, 2020)

It appears FS Curtis is owned by Fusheng Industrial = Taiwanese company. I'm not sure that is a bad thing, if I recall correctly of the import machines (lathes/mills namely) Taiwan manufacture is considered higher end of the imports. Though, it appears FS Curtis is still a US brand. I have reached out to the Brand and a distributor trying to get some more details on what is US and what isn't.


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## mksj (Nov 30, 2020)

If you are looking at that model, I would recommend getting the 80 gallon tank and a mag starter that they have at $1,779. A 5 Hp is going to be pretty rough on the pressure switch otherwise, and the increased tank size will give less cycling. Any of these compressor's should work fine for many years. The FCT05C55V6X-A2L1XX has a 3600 RPM motor which is going to mean more noise, the FCT05C55V8S-A2L1XX has an 1800 RPM and flows more air for not much more.








						FS-Curtis CT5 80 Gallon Air Compressor with Motor Starter - Air Power Equipment OKC
					

We have 230volt Single Phase 230/1/60 Compressors in stock in Oklahoma City.  FS-CURTIS CT Series 5HP 2-Stage 80-Gallon Vertical With Motor Starter   Model Number: FCT05C55V8S-A2L1XX  CFM: 17CFM AT 175PSI  Voltage: 230/1/60 230-VOLT 1-Phase  Outlet Size: 1/2''npt  DIMENSIONS (LxWxH-In.) 33 x 27...




					www.aircompressorcfm.com
				




Also may be worth looking at:








						Champion VRV5-8 RV Series, 5HP (3600RPM) Two-Stage 80 Gallon Vertical Reciprocating Air Compressor Unit - Air Power Equipment OKC
					

The Champion Centurion II, now called the RV Series is engineered to deliver industrial-rated dependability at an affordable price. The RV line offers maximum installation versatility. Each compressor features durable cast-iron construction, industrial grade filter and silencer and alloy steel...




					www.aircompressorcfm.com


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## FlyFishn (Dec 1, 2020)

mksj said:


> If you are looking at that model, I would recommend getting the 80 gallon tank and a mag starter that they have at $1,779. A 5 Hp is going to be pretty rough on the pressure switch otherwise, and the increased tank size will give less cycling. Any of these compressor's should work fine for many years. The FCT05C55V6X-A2L1XX has a 3600 RPM motor which is going to mean more noise, the FCT05C55V8S-A2L1XX has an 1800 RPM and flows more air for not much more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent post and information. I like details and technical information - that is exactly why I started this thread. Unless things are explained or I happen to come to the realization of something in my own studies then I don't know. Like your details on the pressure switch and the RPM. I could figure up the RPM, but unless I really spun my wheels thinking through things I am not sure I would hit on the switch. You are right though - the starting load on compressor motors, in particular, has a large draw on any electrical system. And the pressure switch is, ultimately, the switching device for the power to the motor.

I was starting to dig in to the mag starter and intercooler options (whether stock in a particular model or optional on a particular model). 

As to the RPM - the compressor input RPM seems to be easiest to come across, as opposed to the motor RPM. It seems the higher the CFM for comparable size "compressors" (not tanks) correlates to a higher RPM compressor. So I assume they are changing the gear ratio for the compressor drive. That, also, makes me wonder if the ratio can be changed after-the-fact to get more CFM?

Good stuff.


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## 7milesup (Dec 1, 2020)

^^^ Yeah, Mark is the king of research and pointing out tidbits that us mere mortals miss.   I honestly don't know when the guy sleeps, between helping the folks out here on HM, eating and working, I am amazed.   He is a very valuable resource here.  Now I learned something about compressors that I didn't know that I needed to know.   ^^^


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## macardoso (Dec 1, 2020)

I just wanted to take a quick second to chime in and thank everyone for their insight! I'm going to be moving in a few months and will have the first opportunity to setup a "real" shop. I might be stopping by this thread to reread!

I do not have the volume or storage requirements that you guys do for my compressed air. I only feed my CNC with it for tool changes and use it to blow off chips. For me, noise was absolutely the most important factor since my current shop is in the basement of a 120 year old house and my wife and I can have a conversation at normal talking levels through the basement floor when she is sitting on the couch upstairs. I swapped my old 5Gal HF horizontal compressor for one of their "Ultra Quiet" models and boy what a difference it makes! I daisy chained the two compressors so I get 8 Gal of total storage. I can even leave them both plugged in so the old unit turns on under high demand.









						2 Gallon 135 PSI Ultra Quiet Hand Carry Jobsite Air Compressor
					

Amazing deals on this 2Gal Oil-Free Air Compressor at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




					www.harborfreight.com
				




We can be on the second floor and barely hear it turn on (much quieter than the furnace), and it meets my limited air needs. Perhaps something for people to consider if they often switch on their big unit for small jobs that could be done with this guy.


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## tq60 (Dec 1, 2020)

Our champion has a 1700 rpm motor but very large pulley so compressor spins fast and is not quiet.

Ours is 7.5 hp.

The 5 hp version is mostly same but smaller pulley on motor.

Cheaper to use more common parts as bigger buy of source materials.

Does not run that long.

Most noise is related to air inlet as that is source of the popping like noise.

One of the many projects on to do list is to create sound dampening but that smacks of effort.

On previous compressor we added a pre pump that was like a vacuum cleaner pump to one inlet side and a offered air cleaner.

It made it more quiet and overcharged the inlet, like a super charger on an engine, reduced cycle time greatly as the primary stage no longer sucked air in but the valves allowed it to fill as the piston moved.

Reduced cycle time by maybe 1/2, that too is on the list by we need to monitor motor current to insure not pushing it

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## 7milesup (Dec 1, 2020)

macardoso said:


> I swapped my old 5Gal HF horizontal compressor for one of their "Ultra Quiet" models and boy what a difference it makes! I daisy chained the two compressors so I get 8 Gal of total storage. I can even leave them both plugged in so the old unit turns on under high demand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have that same compressor.  I purchased it for doing the trim in my new house.  Used to have a Porter Cable pancake compressor for the same reason but absolutely hated how loud it was.
I have always said that I would never buy anything from HF but that Ultra Quiet compressor is awesome.  It has become my go-to compressor, even in the shop as long as I don't need a large volume of air.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 1, 2020)

I spent some time with a sales rep for a dealer today asking some questions. First off - I was correct about Fusheng Industrial taking over FS Curtis. It appears, from what the sales rep I spoke to said, that FS Curtis still does assembly in the US, but their motors and compressors are largely manufactured over-seas from existing designs. He did state that Champion was more likely to be mostly US-made where some of their motors may come out of Mexico or Brazil, as opposed to Asia. 

On the subject of electrical requirements - his charts showed that a 5hp motor compressor is recommended to be on a 60a breaker and a 7.5hp motor is recommended to be on an 80a breaker. He also said that inrush, or starting, current could approach 2x full load amps. 

There is going to be some headroom in the recommendations, for sure, but that is still high enough I am not sure I can get a compressor in the size range I am wanting to run on my circuit. I know from my load testing with my welder that the breaker will hold on in to the 40a range. As to how long it does is dependent on how high the draw is. Where at 43-45a the trip is pretty fast. If inrush/starting current on a compressor is under that with a running amperage closer to 30a then I may be able to squeeze by. Going off of the chart data that was provided, though, even a 5hp unit might be a tall order. 

Going the other way - the chart data did point to a 3hp unit being capable to run on a 30a circuit. I don't think that is going to net me much more than I already have with my 20gal compressor. The motor on it is labeled as a 5hp motor, but it is a 110v unit that will run on a 15a circuit (I've done it, but a 30a runs it a lot better - no idea what the running amperage or inrush amperage is, I will have to load test and find out). So I don't think the motor is actually a 5hp. 

Does anyone have any info on what size breakers they are running what size compressor motors - in the 3-7.5hp range on a single phase 240v circuit?


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 1, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> I spent some time with a sales rep for a dealer today asking some questions. First off - I was correct about Fusheng Industrial taking over FS Curtis. It appears, from what the sales rep I spoke to said, that FS Curtis still does assembly in the US, but their motors and compressors are largely manufactured over-seas from existing designs. He did state that Champion was more likely to be mostly US-made where some of their motors may come out of Mexico or Brazil, as opposed to Asia.
> 
> On the subject of electrical requirements - his charts showed that a 5hp motor compressor is recommended to be on a 60a breaker and a 7.5hp motor is recommended to be on an 80a breaker. He also said that inrush, or starting, current could approach 2x full load amps.
> 
> ...



What voltage are you looking at? Must be a 110V circuit to pull 60amps on a 5HP motor.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 1, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> What voltage are you looking at? Must be a 110V circuit to pull 60amps on a 5HP motor.


240v single phase.

Part of what was said was that inrush/starting current can be 2x FLA (full load amps). Some 5hp units were in the ~30a range FLA rating, so I think that is where the 60a breaker recommendation was - the 60a being 2x the 30a of the FLA. 

That is why I am asking if people can list there compressor hp and circuitry ratings to compare.


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## pontiac428 (Dec 1, 2020)

If I had a 5 hp motor that blew a 40A breaker on inrush, I would return it to the dealer as defective.  If they call for a 60a circuit, ask if they will cover the fire insurance on your house, because you're well on your way to needing it.  That's some beer-battered bull$h!t right there.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 1, 2020)

I am looking at some 5hp units here that have a 23 amp FLA rating. So by the same "numbers" - doubling the FLA is 46 amps. I am not all up on common breaker sizes for buildings, but I know there are 45 and 50a breakers for generators. It would seem, to me at least, the next common size breaker from 40 would be 50 - not 60. And 46 is technically higher than 45, so I could see there being an issue with anyone "recommending" a breaker 1a under that. I am not sure where the 60a recommendation comes from, other than that is the "headroom" (the gap from 46a from doubling the FLA to the 60a recommended breaker size) that I was referring to earlier as likely being there. There is probably a lawyer somewhere on top of what that recommendation is.



pontiac428 said:


> If I had a 5 hp motor that blew a 40A breaker on inrush, I would return it to the dealer as defective.  If they call for a 60a circuit, ask if they will cover the fire insurance on your house, because you're well on your way to needing it.  That's some beer-battered bull$h!t right there.



As to the 5hp compressor motor not tripping a 40a breaker - I'd like to see if anyone can verify that from a real-world use-case.

If a 40a breaker doesn't trip on a 5hp compressor then I would be content at that HP enough to get one and give it a try. Likewise, possibly a 7.5hp (if the same theory - not tripping a 40a) but I think in this point of my research that is asking an awful lot = I'd likely be a lot closer to disappointment there than at 5hp.


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## pontiac428 (Dec 1, 2020)

Why should it be asking a lot?  I have been running my 5hp compressor for years on a 30A breaker, and the math shows that it not only covers it, it has room to spare.  I know, I know that different motors have different inrush characteristics.  But double?  No way, Jose.


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## mksj (Dec 1, 2020)

So a couple of factors to consider, and part of this is based on both the motor specs and the breaker specifications, in addition if it is a 2 stage vs. single stage compressor (i.e. load is higher with 2 stage). First if you have a 30A circuit/wiring, you can not pull a full 30A from the circuit, there is always a degree of derating otherwise the wires will overheat if run at full load. A motor has a rated running amps (FLA), and also a service factor, so it is able to draw at its maximum rating the FLA x SFA for short periods. On my Champion 5 Hp two stage compressor at 230VAC the FLA = 21 and the SFA = 24A, so technically it could run on a 30A breaker and the typical over-sizing of the breaker allowed for motors is FLA x 125%. 26.25A and you round up. My motor is a higher efficiency rating then typical single phase motors, so something like 23A is more common. There is some up-sizing of the breaker for motor loads, but there are also different breakers with different trip curves which allow for higher starting motor loads.

My compressor manual recommends a #8(6) wire  for 5 Hp and #6(4) for for 7.5Hp, and drop a size () or longer runs. So it also gets a bit murkier as to the amapacity of the wires and also the ratings of the terminals. Typical ratings for #8 wire is 40A, #6 55A for Romex, higher for THW types. I have my compressor on a 50A circuit breaker, and I run #6 wire to the socket and then use a 50A extension cord which is hard wired to my compressor. Previously I had the same compressor hardwired to sub-panel with pulled #8  THHN through flex conduit. You could get by running a 5 Hp compressor off of a 40A breaker, but I use a 50A breaker and wiring to give some margin and use it for other equipment.  A 60A breaker is a bit excessive. I also often use 50A breaker and wiring for 5Hp lathes , a 60A for a 7.5 Hp unless unusually high loads. See attached chart.

When you get down to ordering a compressor, make sure you know what you are ordering, often the pictures and advertise specs. do not match the model number. So like with the Champion RV series they have lesser 5 Hp models without mag starter that have 3600 RPM motors, the mag starter versions are 1800 RPM. Also things like an after-cooler,  automatic drain, etc. if purchased separately are much more expensive. Get all the details, some have packaged deals with isolation feet hoses and other accessories, but get everything in writing/email first. Also some drop ship from the manufacturer at no additional cost, others with lower pricing charge.

Last, but not least, the price difference between a 5 Hp model and a 7.5 Hp is often something like $100, most share everything else, so you are only paying for a motor upgrade (most cases). There are some high flow V4 compressors in the 7.5Hp range, but generally you see those in the 10Hp and higher.  So if you are going do any high CFM work, it pays to get a 7.5Hp, otherwise the 5 Hp is the sweet spot. The pumps will run a bit slower, so quieter, but most of the noise is from the air intake. I eventually plan to pipe mine into a sound deadened box with a car air cleaner.

I would read this thread on what breaker sized worked for a compressor 7.5 Hp motor, so you can get by possibly with smaller breakers but I would give yourself a minimum of a 125% margin an wiring and breaker size:








						220V, 1-Phase, SF 36 AMP Motor Trips Circuit Breaker
					

Happy Veteran's Day everyone!  I have a 7.5HP air compressor you've helped me with before. It recently began tripping the circuit breaker upon a cycle start - 135 psi I believe. If I let the air out of tank, it worked fine on initial fill cycle, but upon refill, the breaker tripped every time...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## tq60 (Dec 1, 2020)

What he said...

Price difference not much and if you can find a dealer with units on the floor and have folding moneymany can have arms twisted this time of year.

Remember looking at Curtis units when shopping for current model, almost went with them as it first home built was a Curtis pump with poured babbet and trashed crank.

Used connections at former employer to turn journal to just clean up and pour babbet to fit.

Worked great but too small.

The Curtis did not have near the features the Champion did and it was many hundreds more expensive.

Ours is using a 50 amp range outlet, cannot remember wire size or breaker, with the unloader it never starts under load and being 2 stage does not work that much harder than single.

The motor protector has tripped a few times but we have it set lighter for better motor protection.

We added a 120 vac coil relay inside the starter with a standard cord on the coil.

This plugs into an outlet next to main power wired to lights.

Pressure switch control wire goes through relay and added toggle switch so we can control operation with simple switch and interlock to lights so is off automatically when we turn out lights.

Also added 120 vac air solenoid so supply air also off so the tank stays full if we forget to close the ball valve (hose reels have slow leaks)

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## FlyFishn (Dec 1, 2020)

mksj said:


> When you get down to ordering a compressor, make sure you know what you are ordering, often the pictures and advertise specs. do not match the model number. So like with the Champion RV series they have lesser 5 Hp models without mag starter that have 3600 RPM motors, the mag starter versions are 1800 RPM. Also things like an after-cooler, automatic drain, etc. if purchased separately are much more expensive. Get all the details, some have packaged deals with isolation feet hoses and other accessories, but get everything in writing/email first. Also some drop ship from the manufacturer at no additional cost, others with lower pricing charge.



Excellent info. I have been digging in to Champion's options, among others.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 1, 2020)

mksj said:


> I would read this thread on what breaker sized worked for a compressor 7.5 Hp motor, so you can get by possibly with smaller breakers but I would give yourself a minimum of a 125% margin an wiring and breaker size:



I read thru that thread. Good stuff. That was worth the read - sorry to hear of the problems he had, but it is a lesson. Same goes for post #15 with the burned up motor + wiring. Id be curious how "under size" the wire was, what size load (amps), and what size breaker.

In any event, it sounds like a 7.5hp unit is out of the question.

I did get some info from a friend of mine that has a 60gal tank compressor with around a ~3hp motor (no spec, but 15a @230-240v FLA). It shows around 10cfm @ 90psi so I am guessing it is a single stage. Knowing him and what he runs - if he gets by with it then it is probably adequate for my uses. I don't know that he does all that much with rotary tools, but impacts and air ratchets a lot for sure, as well as vacuum on coolant systems. I still have some reservations on what to expect with rotary tool run time durations as less compressor CFM than what a tool consumes means the air will deplete through the run cycle of the tool (even with the compressor running - how ever higher the draw is than the compressor output the faster the depletion). Though rotary tools aren't nearly my primary use, when I do use them that is the real crapper to the amount of air I have now - just not enough to make it work well.


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## ahazi (Dec 2, 2020)

7milesup said:


> I have that same compressor.  I purchased it for doing the trim in my new house.  Used to have a Porter Cable pancake compressor for the same reason but absolutely hated how loud it was.
> I have always said that I would never buy anything from HF but that Ultra Quiet compressor is awesome.  It has become my go-to compressor, even in the shop as long as I don't need a large volume of air.



FWIW, I recently bought a compressor for some work at a residential work site. With many people holed at home during the day as a result of COVID-19 noise was becoming a big issue.

I replaced a small and reliable Craftsman compressor with California Air Tools 8010A Aluminum Tank Air Compressor | Ultra Quiet, Oil-Free, 1.0 hp, 8 gal. It has bigger tank and is more expensive than the HF but seems to be of a higher quality and finish than the HF. My guys that use the compressor mostly with pneumatic finish nailers are very happy with it.

Ariel


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## Tim9 (Dec 2, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Interesting idea. That isn't a bad idea to try. We have a small electric pressure washer. I am not sure if I can adapt it to get it on the tank to pressurize it, but it might be worth a try. I would think any pressure washer would be well over the pressure of an air compressor.


I used nitrogen to test my tank. I’ve seen the video on using a pressure washer but since we’re only talking about needing @200 psi to hydro test a tank, a small B tank of nitro will get you there. Most HVAC guys keep a small tank of nitro to test the refrigeration systems. So if you have a friend that does HVAC, ask him. I picked up my tank from an estate sale. I bought the tote A/O torch and he gave me a nitrogen tank.


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 2, 2020)

Keep in mind that circuit breakers are designed to take more than their rated amps for short periods of time. It is heat that caused them to trip, not directly the amperage. Sure the more amperage you put through them above their rating the hotter they can get, this does not happen instantaneously.

All compressors are different. To say that a 5hp motor is going to consume X amount of power is not true. Each motor by design can pull differently. The 5hp Kobalt 60-Gallon, Two Stage at Lowes for example only pulls 16.2 amps at 230VAC, 1ph. A 30 amp fuse, regardless of how much the motor operating correctly pulls will not trip. If it does, I would say you have either a problem with the motor, motor starter or unloader or the wiring is under sized. Another, more common issue with residential systems is that the grid that they pull from can be subject to brownouts, where the voltage drops more than 10%. This can cause huge increases in amperage the motor pulls.

I think we need to be careful about making broad generalities. Each machine, depending on how they are designed will be different as will the building and power source.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 2, 2020)

For what it is worth, here is a video I did a while back load testing the welder on the same circuit. When I had it set for 115a weld current the circuit amperage was around and over 40 amps - and the circuit breaker held. Bumping up to 130 amps of weld current the circuit amperage was around and over the upper 40a range, peaking around 63a, and the breaker didn't immediately go.

115a (weld current) is the most I can see needing, with the vast majority being under 90a. So that drops the load on the circuit even more than at the 115a I ran with in the 1st segment of the video.

https://youtu.be/9dRPMl4pvVQ               

Yeah, the higher load than rated breaker isn't the best thing - but it holds with surprising strength.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 3, 2020)

Stonebriar said:


> I am a fan of Champion and Quincy compressors. I would NOT buy one from a big box store. I purchased my Champion online from TP tools. It is a 19cfm 80 gallon RV series. It runs great. My largest consumer of air is a CNC plasma cutting table. JMO



Do you know what the "foreign parts" are on your compressor? As in - do the tank, motor, and compressor show anything other than US on the labels? Is yours a "VR" series or "RV" series? There is a big difference in the order of the letters - the R series (models start with VR in the code, not RV) use an R-15B compressor with ~1700rpm class motors and the VR series (models start with VRV in the code) use an R-15A compressor with ~3600rpm motors standard.

I got on to FS Curtis for a bit and found a lot of their parts are imports - compressors, motors - then assembled in US. Champion was mentioned as being US aside from possibly motors sourced from Mexico or Brazil. Saylor Beall is another brand I'm looking at.


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## Stonebriar (Dec 3, 2020)

Well mine is not either. Its about  15 years old a Centurian model ccsrva.  It has a Blador motor 1725rpm. It is all USA parts it looks like.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 3, 2020)

Stonebriar said:


> Well mine is not either. Its about  15 years old a Centurian model ccsrva.  It has a Blador motor 1725rpm. It is all USA parts it looks like.



OK. Thanks for the info. That is their VRV series today. One of the guys I am corresponding with got from his rep that is just a "rebranded" Centurion. Doesn't sound like there is much difference. Though, I would be curious in current times if there are more over-seas parts? Hard to tell I suppose.


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## mksj (Dec 3, 2020)

I do not think you will find a compressor that has all US parts, just about everything these days is sourced from different countries, made in US does not assure one of quality. Compressors in the 2-3K price range are built on pretty much the same pump designs that have been used for decades. So the parts may be outsourced, but the should meet the same spec's, the pumps are typically rated for a minimum of 20,000+ hours, so it comes down to the pump speed/CFM, noise,  and additional features. Probably more a matter of preference whether you go with a Curtis, Quincy,  Saylor Beall or Champion. Price wise the Champion's tend to be a bit less expensive for a similarly equipped model. In the Champion line-up their "RV" line is a less expensive line vs. "R" series, the latter is more industrial and may last a bit longer in a continuous use mode. I have the "R" series, it was quite a bit less when I purchased it, it works fine. I also had the industrial Curtis CT-5 5Hp and it was also built to last. I put so few hours on my compressors, that it is pretty much a non-issue of their longevity. If you can swing the extra cost, as I mentioned the after cooler and automatic drain are well worth additions at a nominal additional cost in the packages. Typically the entry level 5 Hp models by these manufactures will use higher speed (Asian) pumps and motors, so more noise, and they seem to have more reliability complaints. I have a Marathon motor on my compressor, seems they have moved away from Baldor, they also use WEG industrial motors. Almost all these are now made in Mexico or Brazil, the cheaper ones are typically Chinese.

On the issue of supply current and breakers, you want to use the minimum specified gauge wire outlined by the manufacturer, typically #8 for 5 Hp and #6 for 7.5 Hp 230VAC single phase. Minimum breaker size is 1.25 x FLA. So at least 30A for 5 Hp and 40A or 50A for 7.5 Hp depending on the motor FLA. In addition a breaker at a specific trip amperage  is not to designed to provide that amperage continuously, it is designed to deliver 80% of it's rating on a continuous bases. So a 40A breaker can supply 32A continuously.  On a compressor that cycles on and off, you may not hit the thermal overload limits of a breaker, but depends on/off duration over time.

This is a breakdown of the Champion models:
Full package includes After Cooler, Automatic Drain, Low Oil Shutoff, and additional add on's based on the seller. Compressors most be hard mounted with isolation feet. Warranty varies by series and package. Stripped down packages are approximately $600-700 less, but as noted may not have mag starters and motors on the RV series may be 3600 RPM. I purchased my Champion Compressor from Pacific Air, there may be some wiggle room in pricing. I got the runaround from some of the other dealers, had the check valve to the tank fail due to rust, and they replaced it under warranty. I am surprised that they no longer list the "R" series on their website, but could probably order one.

VRV "RV" Series
Champion 5 HP 2 Stage 1 Phase Air Compressor VRV5-8 Full Package, 17.3 CFM, 734 RPM Pump (21A, 1750 RPM motor) ~$2700 shipped








						Champion 5 HP 2 Stage 1 Phase Air Compressor VRV5-8 Full Package USA Made!
					

Reciprocating Air Compressor 5 HP, Two Stage, Single Phase Air Cooled After Cooler Automatic Tank Drain Mounted Magnetic Motor Starter Installation kit: 4 each 4×4 mounting pads and 1 each 4&#…



					www.pacificaircompressors.com
				




Champion 7.5 HP TWO STAGE CAST IRON V-4 CYLINDER AIR COMPRESSOR, 25.8 CFM, 575 RPM Pump (FLA 31A,1750 RPM motor) ~$3400 shipped








						7.5 HP TWO STAGE CAST IRON V-4 CYLINDER AIR COMPRESSOR 25 CFM, 575 RPM
					

CHAMPION AIR COMPRESSOR 7.5 HP, SINGLE PHASE, 230 VOLT 80 GALLON VERTICAL TANK WITH AIR COOLED AFTER COOLER AND AUTO TANK DRAIN If you are looking for the BEST 7.5 hp two stage single phase compres…



					www.pacificaircompressors.com
				




VR/HR "R" series, Advantage series are the fully packaged.
VR5-8 Champion 5 HP 80 Gallon Vertical Advantage Series Air Compressor Fully Packaged 17.3 CFM, 710 RPM Pump (21-23A, 1750 RPM motor) ~$3200 Shipped




__





						Champion VR5-8 | 5 HP 80 Gallon Vertical Air Compressor
					

Save on installation costs with the Champion VR5-8 vertical air compressor. It features a control panel with a starter that is already mounted and wired.



					www.industrialaircompressors.biz
				




VR7F-8 Champion 7.5 HP 80 Gallon Vertical Advantage Series Air Compressor Fully Packaged  28.7 CFM, 990 RPM Pump (FLA 40A,1750 RPM motor) ~$3400 shipped




__





						7.5 HP 80 Gallon Air Compressor | Champion VR7F-8
					

Reduce in-tank rust with the Champion VR7F-8 air compressor. This 7.5 HP, 80-gallon unit features a timed tank drain for automatic condensate removal.



					www.industrialaircompressors.biz


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## FlyFishn (Dec 3, 2020)

mksj said:


> I do not think you will find a compressor that has all US parts, just about everything these days is sourced from different countries, made in US does not assure one of quality. Compressors in the 2-3K price range are built on pretty much the same pump designs that have been used for decades.



Thanks for the details. I won't quote everything as its a long email. The parts being sourced elsewhere I would think is hard to get around. There are so many controls, electrical parts, enclosures, etc that can be over-seas supply its hard to tell. As to the main parts and machining/casting though (pumps) - I would think that would be pretty easy to nail down.

I found a video of a 5hp Saylor Beall starting and running. Even on the video I could tell it was quite quiet, relatively speaking. That was good to see/hear. One of my concerns has been sound - the compressor I have now is irritating. As far as the overall noise and ticking off the neighborhood go - it isn't just the duration I run tools (impacts, cut off wheel, die grinder) that is obnoxious its the compressor going also. I don't have an audio level (dB) to compare to, but a significant reduction with a slower speed compressor (pump + motor) would be very welcomed, for sure!

I checked the breaker box and I do have an unused 40a circuit. So if the 30a doesn't suffice I have another breaker to try. But that is down the road a ways. I have ideas on getting a larger supply cable. Worst case, I can run a new cable and borrow the spot for either the current 30a or 40a circuit for what ever I need. The 30a is what I use now - if I were to run a new cable it probably would entirely replace the 30a (that cable and outlet would be unterminated and taped up at the box for reconnecting down the road if need-be). The current 40a that isn't used could also be pulled and taped up, so either way I have options there. What I don't want to do is add a new 2-pole/240 breaker (new position on top of what is there) as that would mean shifting a whole row of breakers down = not enough wire going to the box to pull slack in them.

If the power draw was lower on the 7.5hp's that would be a bit more enticing to get the higher CFM, but since it is what it is there wouldn't be any wiggle-room on circuits so from the get-go I'd be doing the wiring also. 5hp sounds like the sweet spot - it could pop the circuit breaker on extended runs, but we'll see what happens there - just like the big welder - it runs fine.


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## sdelivery (Dec 3, 2020)

I think if I were going to buy a compressor now I would do what I did 25 years ago and that was to build it.
The Quincy QR series of compressor pumps are expensive but there has been no decrease in performance over the 25 years.
I installed the factory optional dual control valve so I  can choose on off cycling or continuous.  During continuous mode the intake valves are unloaded (heald  open).
I chose the pump I rebuilt, the rebuild kit was expensive 170.00 dollars as I recall.
The pump was 1400.00 dollars new back in the early 90's I see them at about 2500.00 now, of course I found a broken compressor and just snagged the pump so I had almost nothing invested.
In continuous mode the valves unload at 125 and load at 110 with two 4 inch diameter pistons it fills my undersize 80 gal tank in approximately 2 minutes.
The single phase 5 HP motor is also industrial with 26 FLA at 220 Vac.
Point of this is there are alot of old industrial compressors out there and with a rebuild the new units cant compare to these old american made iron units.


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## tq60 (Dec 3, 2020)

Price gone up in 10 years.

Ours was about 1900, 7.5 hp, mag starter, after cooler and auto tank drain.

Looks like over 3 grand now.

Still, buy once if you can.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## FlyFishn (Dec 3, 2020)

sdelivery said:


> Point of this is there are alot of old industrial compressors out there and with a rebuild the new units cant compare to these old american made iron units.



That is an interesting point. 

What scares me, though, is the tanks. That is why I am looking hard at new ones. Part of my logic is the damage and heartache (not to mention if someone had a catestrophic injury over it) caused by a compressor explosion would far out-weigh the investment cost of a nice compressor. Also when new I can start with a fresh slate on the maintenance and upkeep.


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## sdelivery (Dec 4, 2020)

I bought a new tank because I didn't want the CONTAMINATED found in old tanks as I was looking to paint BUT I am not worried about a compressor explosion due to a failed tank at 125 psi. I would definitely worry about a boiler explosion over that range. If your compressor draws in any semi flammable vapor it could be an issue.
A relief valve sized on flow and then pressure is the key to compressor safety.
Using to small of relief valve will diminish its 
ability to relieve pressure quickly enough.
Almost every shop I service has at least one dead compressor they would be willing to part with. Avoid the new underrated compressors, most are rated on the scfm they draw in when producing atmospheric pressure (0) and NOT output scfm.
Industry does not use this method for rating.
This is how I can sandblast with my compressor without the tank.


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## Boswell (Dec 4, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> What scares me, though, is the tanks


I bought and old Curtis circa 1950's off of craigs list.  Rebuilt the compressor with available rebuild kit, replaced the motor and tank. works great.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 4, 2020)

Boswell said:


> I bought and old Curtis circa 1950's off of craigs list.  Rebuilt the compressor with available rebuild kit, replaced the motor and tank. works great.



What did you replace the tank with?


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## Boswell (Dec 4, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> What did you replace the tank with?


I bought a new 80 gal vertical tank from compressor world.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 4, 2020)

Boswell said:


> I bought a new 80 gal vertical tank from compressor world.


How much did that set you back? And did you opt for any upgrades in coatings?


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## Boswell (Dec 4, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> How much did that set you back? And did you opt for any upgrades in coatings?


about $760 USD with free shipping.  No coatings. or upgrades.


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## mksj (Dec 4, 2020)

Running compressor pump (5-10Hp) with low hours or new, probably run you around $1500,  tank around $700, single phase motor $500, electrical, plumbing, guard, you are well past what a new one would cost. The pressure lubed compressor series in the Quincy,  Curtis and other industrial lines are made for continuous use for years, but way overkill unless you can pick one up in good condition and do not have to start rebuilding it.
Example of a Quincy 350 Compressor is a good compressor, very low hours, might get lucky with a low sale price. These days I just want something I can hookup and runs, and I do not need to think about it for many years.








						Quincy 350 Compressor  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Quincy 350 Compressor at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				











						Industrial Air Vertical Receiver Tank w/Platform- 80 Gallon 200 PSI #021-0422  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Industrial Air Vertical Receiver Tank w/Platform- 80 Gallon 200 PSI #021-0422 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## sdelivery (Dec 4, 2020)

mksj said:


> Running compressor pump (5-10Hp) with low hours or new, probably run you around $1500,  tank around $700, single phase motor $500, electrical, plumbing, guard, you are well past what a new one would cost. The pressure lubed compressor series in the Quincy,  Curtis and other industrial lines are made for continuous use for years, but way overkill unless you can pick one up in good condition and do not have to start rebuilding it.
> Example of a Quincy 350 Compressor is a good compressor, very low hours, might get lucky with a low sale price. These days I just want something I can hookup and runs, and I do not need to think about it for many years.
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent you just put a parts list together for the perfect home shop air system. It will allow the shop to grow and out perform any of the throw away home shop compressors and the price is not that far 2k I saw on one of the better compressors I saw at my local RKO or Lowe's,  Home Depot.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 4, 2020)

mksj said:


> Example of a Quincy 350 Compressor is a good compressor, very low hours, might get lucky with a low sale price. These days I just want something I can hookup and runs, and I do not need to think about it for many years.



Are you going to trust the maintenance has been done and the tank is not a few pressure cycles from the "great bang"? Are you going to take apart the compressor to inspect the inside? Get it inspected professionally and re-certified?

As I said before - the damage and heartache caused by a compressor explosion would out-weigh the investment cost. What explodes is the tank. The rest of the components - yea I can see rebuilding and replacing. A failed motor isn't going to kill someone standing near the compressor. The cost of getting a certified replacement tank, though, is pretty pricey, comparatively.


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## sdelivery (Dec 4, 2020)

How are you going to have this compressor explosion? The key to compressor safety is the pressure relief valve. Your operator's manual  tells you to test it at regular intervals. Part of the maintenance on ANY  compressor is the testing of the pressure relief valve. They are spring loaded and have what looks like a key ring on the spool, pull this everytime you want to check the relief valve operation.
be careful air should come out at whatever pressure level is in the receiver (tank).
tanks have condensation that can rust the inside of the tank.  When rusted tanks fail they start to leak. There are access ports on the tanks designed for inspection. You will hear a different sound  when Striking the suspected area with a hammer but if your really suspect pay for a new tank or have yours tested.
In industry we try to drain our tanks at least once a day so most industrial tanks will be usable.
a compressor rebuild kit for the QR series of Quincy compressors is about 350 dollars.
rebuilding your own compressor pump is like rebuilding a small machine tool...it actually is a small machine tool and a great way to improve your mechanical skills as well as your machining skills. You will know how your system works it will not be a mystery  which means you will be able to fix it should it break down.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 4, 2020)

sdelivery said:


> How are you going to have this compressor explosion? The key to compressor safety is the pressure relief valve.



The pressure relief valve has no bearing on the tank structure rupturing due to corrosion. The tank structure can rupture at well under the rating of the pressure relief valve if it has corroded enough. So again - your pressure relief valve is irrelevant in that case.

All a pressure relief valve is going to protect against, given it is functional, is over-pressure. If the pressure switch fails and the compressor runs past its' cut-off point then your pressure relief valve is going to be the saving device.

If the compressor cuts off at 175psi and the pressure relief valve is 190-200psi, yet the tank ruptures at 120psi, what is the safety device? 

So again - I wouldn't trust a used system (specifically the tank = pressure vessel) without documentation, proper inspections, and having the ability to physically inspect myself.

Here is some insight for compressor explosions:






















						Metropolitan Engineering Consulting and Forensics - CAUSE OF EXPLOSION OF AIR COMPRESSOR TANKS
					

CAUSE OF EXPLOSION OF AIR COMPRESSOR TANKS




					sites.google.com


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## sdelivery (Dec 4, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> The pressure relief valve has no bearing on the tank structure rupturing due to corrosion. The tank structure can rupture at well under the rating of the pressure relief valve if it has corroded enough. So again - your pressure relief valve is irrelevant in that case.
> 
> All a pressure relief valve is going to protect against, given it is functional, is over-pressure. If the pressure switch fails and the compressor runs past its' cut-off point then your pressure relief valve is going to be the saving device.
> 
> ...


Damn that's scary! These are small economy compressors and the tank quality does not compare with a larger certified tank.
If you are skeptical of the tank replace it or have it tested.
If you look at industrial horizontal tanks the seam is not on the bottom


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## mksj (Dec 4, 2020)

I think it is all moot, my point is you do not need an industrial grade pump that is going to be used for continuous use for 10-20 or more years, and I agree you take it on face value the condition of what is sold used, that being said the Quincy and Curtis industrial compressors can last many decades before needing rebuilding. You can check the serial number/date codes to see how old they are if you want to go down that rabbit hole. It is no different then buying other used equipment. Tanks are another matter, not worth the nominal cost to buy something new, even if it is inspected. Cheaper tanks use thinner metal and the quality of the welds may not be as good. I just do not see the practicality to the exercise of building your own if you can purchase a new compressor with a service life of 40,000+ hours, champion states theirs as 100,000+ but depends on the model. I can see going to an industrial version if you were in a production shop, but for hobbyist use you are talking many decades of use, I for one will not be around when mine goes out to pasture. 

As I mentioned the 5Hp Champion Compressor is probably the sweet spot, if you need more air than the V4 7.5 Hp. I had a long discussion with Pacific Air when I bought mine, he said the V4 was their most popular model and it was very quiet due to the low pump speed, which also equates to service life and increased cooling. You can call them and check on the motor amperage and breaker requirements, I thing it will exceed what you have. Quincy also has their QT-5 Max series worth looking at, I find them to be a bit noisier (higher pitch) than the champion pumps which are more of a lower register. They all will deliver no matter which brand you get, the performance is only limited by the Hp so they will all deliver the same amount of air for reciprocating compressors.


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## tq60 (Dec 5, 2020)

We built many over the years and was never satisfied as there was always something missing.

Last build was a 4 cyl pump, 5 hp motor and it made plenty of cfm but single stage it cycled below our operating pressure.

Bit the bullet and bought a real unit, DONE!

unless you want to do compressor as hobby, save up and buy a good one once.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## FlyFishn (Dec 5, 2020)

Interesting observation here:

Kobalt 60gal, 2 stage, 3.7hp compressor from Lowes = 255lbs


			https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-60-Gallon-Two-Stage-Electric-Vertical-Air-Compressor/1000542193
		


Comparable Saylor-Beall 60gal, 2 stage, 3hp compressor = 565lbs (VT-730-60 model)


			https://www.saylor-beall.com/wp-content/uploads/SB_SplashLube.pdf
		


That is 310lbs MORE for the Saylor-Beall than the Kobalt. WOW! Where is that weight gain? I'd like to think the bulk of that is in the tank.

The Champion R series (comparable model is the VR3F-6) is 425lbs - a 170lb increase over the Kobalt.


			https://www.championpneumatic.com/-/media/files/champion/reciprocating-compressors/r-series/r-series-pump-model-r-10d-brochure.pdf
		


Yeah, some of that will be the motor and compressor pump - but a heavier tank, for sure. Something to be said there.


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## Scruffy (Dec 5, 2020)

You should check out Polar Air. Their built - assembled around Dayton, oh. They offer a wide selection. I've been looking at their 7.5 hp, 80 gallon 2 stage .
They seem to have decent prices and different optionsi live about 45 minutes nort west of Dublin
Thanks scruffy Ron


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## pontiac428 (Dec 5, 2020)

I am ready to give up on my bubble gum and duct tape compressor.  I just checked out Polar Air.  I trust Eaton, that's a good name behind them.  They have a quiet air compressor that has the same parts at $1000 less than the Emax I've been looking at.  That's a big deal @Scruffy , you might have saved me some big cheddar here!


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## Scruffy (Dec 5, 2020)

Sorry double post              Check out Polar Air. Their built - assembled around Dayton Ohio. You can purchase and pick up there. I 've been looking at their 7.5 hp 80 gallon tank 2 stage.
  I live about 45 minutes north west of you.
Tanks scruffy Ron


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## Scruffy (Dec 5, 2020)

Back at you pontiac428. I like their options such as contionus run , auto drain ect, plus I only live about 70 miles from there, so I could pick it up and save shipping.
Thanks scruffy Ron


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## mksj (Dec 5, 2020)

My friend in Tucson has the Eaton (Polar Air), it has served him well but the castings are very rough and was not what I was looking for. Some debate on where the parts come from, see post below. In the end, these "larger/heavier" compressors will last a very long time no matter which one you choose. You get what you pay for.




__





						Eaton / Polar Air Compressors
					

Does anyone here have experience with these compressors? I've been looking to upgrade my compressor for a long time and am getting close to pull the plug out of necessity. I am looking at a 3-phase 5HP compressor and I want it to be the correct fit that I don't need to worry about for a while...



					www.practicalmachinist.com
				











						Eaton Compressor threatens to sue me over "Made in...
					

Just wanted to let everyone know that Matt Cain, the President of Eaton Compressor, has threatened me with a frivolous lawsuit over a discussion that mentions how Eaton Compressors are made in China. He also indicated that he had previously pressured other forums into deleting similar threads...




					www.hotrodders.com


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## pontiac428 (Dec 5, 2020)

That is some enlightening stuff.  So Emax is Eaton-Max, the more Chinese version of Eaton Polar.  The mind boggles.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 5, 2020)

mksj said:


> Some debate on where the parts come from, see post below. In the end, these "larger/heavier" compressors will last a very long time no matter which one you choose.



The almighty dollar is what guides "things". Per your 2nd post/link on Hotrodders - Eaton seems to be a less-than-ethical company covering up where things are made. Again - the almighty dollar. Its cheaper to source parts from China, which is a shame, and apparently there are regulations in the US for what the "legal definition" is of "made in US". The figure in the article (not sure on the accuracy, either then or now - post was from 2008 = 12 years ago) was 60%; meaning if 60% of a product is made or assembled in US it can carry the "made in US" label. Not to debate or debunk Eaton units, the tactics displayed in the post to cover up where things are made speaks pretty loudly of the lack of ethics/poor ethics of those driving the company. People showing that their products aren't "made in US" hurts sales and market growth opportunities - and thus the company has tried to cover them up (the almighty dollar at the root of it). 

Sadly, lots of companies fall prisoner to the dollar - and "ethics" is a big buzz word with HR departments everywhere you look and you have to do some form of "ethics training" onboarding with most places. Whats the point when those running the companies are enethical to their customers and employees? Anywho - that is off-topic. 

Ingersoll Rand has some similar unethical tactics on display around the Internet. I don't have a direct link, but I recall hearing about a lawsuit somewhere/some time where an employee was "let go" a day before his pension would have kicked in. The point of the "let go" was to keep the company from owing the pension $ to the employee. If I recall correctly, the employee won.

A friend of mine has been in the auto repair industry all his working life. He mentioned their shop switched to Aircat tools because they are the best value for the $. I was looking at Ingersoll Rand impacts a while back and talked to my buddy. Their shop had bad experiences with quality and lack of support from IR so they said "no more" and went all Aircat. From that conversation I found from others online similar stories and experiences. My heavy impact is a 3/4" Aircat Vibrotherm as the result. I can't justify the 2x price for an IR. Back in the day (15-20 years ago) they might have been worth the investment, but not with the poor information out there about their lackluster support and treatment of employees.


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## sdelivery (Dec 5, 2020)

tq60 said:


> We built many over the years and was never satisfied as there was always something missing.
> 
> Last build was a 4 cyl pump, 5 hp motor and it made plenty of cfm but single stage it cycled below our operating pressure.
> 
> ...


The thing missing was the engineering behind building a compressor


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## Scruffy (Dec 5, 2020)

Pontiac428 look at their warranty, better than most other company's


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## Janderso (Dec 29, 2020)

Guys and gals,
Don't mess around with an old unknown tank.
A local guy was killed last week due to an exploding air tank.
The compressor was old. A fellow hobby guy in his garage.
When in doubt, throw it out.


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## FlyFishn (Dec 29, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Guys and gals,
> Don't mess around with an old unknown tank.
> A local guy was killed last week due to an exploding air tank.
> The compressor was old. A fellow hobby guy in his garage.
> When in doubt, throw it out.


Hence why I don't want to take a chance on my current old one.  
Sorry to hear of the catastrophe. That is a shame.


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 29, 2020)

@Janderso I am with you Jeff, I was looking for a used compressor but what I saw was just too questionable. Decided that I will only settle for new. May consider a used compressor and motor but not a used tank.


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## G-ManBart (Dec 30, 2020)

I'm late to the party, but have a bit of experience with compressors.  Some of the more popular names come in varying grades with very different levels of quality.  I've seen a Speedaire that was identical (other than paint) as a Campbell Hausfield (and several other brands), so you really have to research them.

For the normal (non-screw type) piston compressors I'd say Saylor-Beall and Quincy are the best, but many of the Quincy models now have gone to the cheap side.  S-B doesn't really make a cheap compressor of any kind.  The really nice thing about S-B is you can call them and get someone on the phone who knows what they're talking about.  A while back I bought a nice 80Gal S-B from the estate of a retired woodworker, called S-B and in about five minutes had all the supporting documentation e-mailed to me...manual, parts manual, etc.  It was missing the guard so I made a new one, changed the oil, new air filter, new belts, did a hydro test and bore scoped the tank, etc.  

As much as I like S-B, I sold mine when I got a crazy deal on an 80Gal Quincy pressure lubricated QR model....it's their premium, heavy-duty model....they aren't cheap and I'm into it well under $1K.  The Quincy puts out more air and seems quieter, but it was just such a deal that I was able to sell the S-B and almost cover the cost of keeping the Quincy for free.  You really can't go wrong with either brands.


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## bfd (Dec 30, 2020)

Ihave an 80 gallon 7.5 hp. compressor from harbor freight. it has worked well for over 6 years. it has a baldor motor siemans controls a usa made compressor was cheap at the time and my money was getting tight bill


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 30, 2020)

G-ManBart said:


> I'm late to the party, but have a bit of experience with compressors.  Some of the more popular names come in varying grades with very different levels of quality.  I've seen a Speedaire that was identical (other than paint) as a Campbell Hausfield (and several other brands), so you really have to research them.
> 
> For the normal (non-screw type) piston compressors I'd say Saylor-Beall and Quincy are the best, but many of the Quincy models now have gone to the cheap side.  S-B doesn't really make a cheap compressor of any kind.  The really nice thing about S-B is you can call them and get someone on the phone who knows what they're talking about.  A while back I bought a nice 80Gal S-B from the estate of a retired woodworker, called S-B and in about five minutes had all the supporting documentation e-mailed to me...manual, parts manual, etc.  It was missing the guard so I made a new one, changed the oil, new air filter, new belts, did a hydro test and bore scoped the tank, etc.
> 
> As much as I like S-B, I sold mine when I got a crazy deal on an 80Gal Quincy pressure lubricated QR model....it's their premium, heavy-duty model....they aren't cheap and I'm into it well under $1K.  The Quincy puts out more air and seems quieter, but it was just such a deal that I was able to sell the S-B and almost cover the cost of keeping the Quincy for free.  You really can't go wrong with either brands.



Just looked up the Quincy pressure lubricated 80 gallons, they are going for $2900. Some kind of a deal you came across.


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## G-ManBart (Dec 30, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> Just looked up the Quincy pressure lubricated 80 gallons, they are going for $2900. Some kind of a deal you came across.



Yeah, they aren't cheap!  Mine wasn't new, but super clean and had the documentation that I knew how old it was, etc...bore scoped the tank and the chalk writing on the inside was still visible, then I did a hydro test just to be safe.


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