# Tail Stock Upgrade To 109 Craftsman



## 98rangerll (Apr 15, 2015)

has anyone gone from the morse taper 0 to a morse taper 1 convertion to find tooling easier I want to make one longer so I can put a dro on just one of the cheap grizzly or ebay ones and was thinking if I made one a 1.25 longer one it would work then I thought about the mt1 idea and wonder if it will work to make a mt1 tailstock ram thought I would ask you guys thoughts thanks guys for your thoughts


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## spongerich (Apr 16, 2015)

I hate to be 'that guy' but it seems like a complete waste of money to put a DRO on a 109.
If it were me, I'd sell it to one of the many 109 collectors that seem to be around and use the cash for something just a little larger that has graduated dials.   

A 618 with dials is likely to be a whole lot more accurate than a 109 with a DRO.    Just my $.02.


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## wa5cab (Apr 16, 2015)

We don't generally condone derogatory comments about anyone's machines, but I'll have to say that I agree with spongerich.  The actual return on all that custom work is apt to be disappointing. If anyone has an AA lathe that they want to get working, they'll get help if any is available just as would someone with any other machine.  But trying to turn the machine into something it just isn't, no.


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## 98rangerll (Apr 16, 2015)

I spent a lot of time looking for something better but couldn't find it in my budget so when I came across this for the 100 bucks it's better than nothing I agree there are better machines but you gotta start some place I have access from time to time to a larger machine it's limited though and never enough to get all my work done so I thought why not drop 20 or 30 bucks and maximize what I got some time and material not my frst choice either but if someone wants to sell me there  618 or something bigger for the same type of money it's what I got


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## 98rangerll (Apr 16, 2015)

I see even harbor freight lathes with dials but they want as much for those used as a new one and you can never get parts for them


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## David S (Apr 16, 2015)

98 yes you have to start somewhere.  Back in the early 70's before internet and my "world" was my small town, I bought a Unimat DB200 with a bunch of accessories.  It wasn't a big machine and it did all the small stuff that I wanted to do and let me learn machining safely.  A few years later I progressed to the Atlas 618 which is still my work horse lathe.

Best thing is to know what the 109 can and can't do and enjoy.  If you do get accessories consider if they can be used for a larger machine.

David


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## 98rangerll (Apr 16, 2015)

Agree a 6 in dro I can switch with a new bracket to any machine I end up with I'm talking  a generic grizzly one for 20 bucks not much but it could be nice to have


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## RJSakowski (Apr 16, 2015)

A rather easy fix for tailstock indicator  is to make a graduated dial.  I made one years ago for my 6" Craftsman/Atlas.  

With the exception of the setscrew holes it can be done entirely on the lathe if you don't have access to a rotary table or dividing head.  

The tailstock leadscrew has a 16 tpi thread so you advance 62.5 thousandths for every revolution.  You would need 62 full thousandths marks and 1 half thousandths mark.  With a dividing head, you would select 125 divisions and use every other one for the full thousandths for a total of 62.  With a rotary table , you advance the table by 5 degrees, 45 minutes, and 36 seconds for each mark.  

If you don't have access to a dividing head or rotary table, you can use the lathe itself as a dividing head.  The bull gear has holes on the face of the gear every 6 degrees for a total of 60.  If you slide the index pin into a hole and always take up lash in the same direction, you can use a lathe bit to scribe your lines.  Your divisions will correspond to 1.04 thousandths instead of an even 1 thousandth but you will have a precise way to measure your tailstock ram travel. I used  number punches to mark every tenth mark.

To use, you will need to figure how many full 1/16ths inches you need to move and how many thousandths past that.  For example, if you wanted to drill a hole .800 inches deep, you would feed in 12 full revolutions of the leadscrew (12 x 1/16" = .750") and 50 thousandths past that.  If your dial divisions are .00104", that would be 48 divisions. 

It is more cumbersome than a DRO but it does work and gives you some additional precision in your machining that you would not otherwise have.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 16, 2015)

Another way to get an accurate readout of tailstock travel without much effort would be to use a dial indicator.  You will need to mount some sort of tab on whatever tooling you have in the tailstock and a magnetic mount or clamping arrangement for the dial indicator.  The tip of the dial indicator contacts the tab and as you advance the tailstock ram, the indicator gives you the distance traveled.  A plus is that you now have a dial indicator for other uses  as well; a boon if you are on a tight budget.  Grizzly has 1" travel dial indicators for less than $20 and a 2" for less than $30.


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## 98rangerll (Apr 16, 2015)

Wet thanks guys I like your ideas I don't have a dividing plate but I know where I could barrow the use of one for long enough to take that task on and the travel indicator idea I also like simple easy mods and improvements you guys guys are awesome now to get to drilling a hole and facing then scribing and making a slip ring I can tighten on the ram in the mean time


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## wa5cab (Apr 16, 2015)

To get back to your original question about converting the spindle and/or tailstock from 0MT to something larger, no.  I don't have the outside diameter of the tailstock (although I have looked at photos in all of the Craftsman catalogs over the period 1941-1961 that the lathes were sold) but it looks too small.  The spindle nose is either 1/2"-24 or 1/2"-20 (you never have said which of the three or four models you have) which is too small to take up even to 1MT, let alone 2MT.  Sorry.


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## 98rangerll (Apr 17, 2015)

109.20630 are the numbers from off the data plate I would say it's a AA one of the small ones the original tailstock is a mt0 I think if I just make a little longer ram it would allow a few minor accessories


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## wa5cab (Apr 17, 2015)

OK.  That is the middle model, made from sometime between 1944 and 1947, and 1948.  A new model was made from 1949 until 1961.  The reason that the first year is indeterminate is that Sears didn't publish a Power Tools catalog from 1944 through 1947, and there is no way to date an AA lathe.

Your idea sounds good but has drawbacks.  First, availability of accessories for 1MT is not much better that the availability of ones for 0MT.  So you would probably want to go to 2MT.  I think that the diameter of the tailstock ram is probably the same as the spindle, 1/2".  The diameter of the small end of a 2MT plug is 0.572".  So the entire socket would have to be external.  If you use something like 4130, you would probably want at least 1/4" of it solid.  The diameter of the large end of the hole is 0.700".  The depth of the socket is 2-39/84" (2.6094").  So the external part would be at least 2.8954".  This would reduce the distance between centers to about 9" or a little more.

If you can find the accessories that you want in 1MT, the situation might be a little better in that the small end of the 1MT plug is only 0.013" larger than the large end of the 0MT socket.  However, the ram would be weakest right at the end of the 1/2" dia. part and therefore, even with the 1MT, you would be safer to put the entire socket external.

Also, in order to be able to eject an accessory from the tailstock ram, the ram can't be solid at the end of the 1/2" portion.  And you will need to also make a new and longer feed screw.

I suspect that you would be much better off to try to find a 618 (or 101.07301 or 101.21400 or 101.21200) tailstock and base cheap and have the base modified to fit your V-bed.  This would give you a safe 1MT ram.


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## 98rangerll (Apr 17, 2015)

Ok well I appreciate  the info you know more about these so far than anyone I have found I was thinking a longer ram and screw but I like your idea to get a heavier set of tools in the get a bigger lathe part of what you mention but I cant seem to find any on my side of the country that are close enough to get that they don't want new pricing for


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## spongerich (Apr 17, 2015)

98rangerll said:


> Ok well I appreciate  the info you know more about these so far than anyone I have found I was thinking a longer ram and screw but I like your idea to get a heavier set of tools in the get a bigger lathe part of what you mention but I cant seem to find any on my side of the country that are close enough to get that they don't want new pricing for



There's an Atlas 618 on eBay now for $550 or best offer in northern NJ.  There's also a couple of nice ones on Craigslist in the $500-$600 range.
Decent 109's are selling for around $400.

With a little luck, you could get yourself into a much more capable machine (with much better parts and accessories availability) for a couple hundred bucks.    I've owned both and while plenty of folks turn out good parts on a 109, IMHO the 618 is going to be far more satisfying in the long run.  The other thing to think about is resale value.   The market for nice 109's is pretty strong..  Even if you're happy with it now, you might find yourself wanting/needing something larger eventually.   If you modify your 109 irreversibly, you're going to have a hard time selling it for top dollar later.


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## 98rangerll (Apr 17, 2015)

The saddle is the only place I see any wear but I am going to try and adjust the Gibson and see what that does just this morning found a 618 on Craigslist for a 100 bucks I emailed the guy waiting to hear back now with any luck since he listed it late last night and I emailed at 2 am I'm hoping I'm first on the list


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## mattthemuppet2 (Apr 17, 2015)

digital tire depth gauges make satisfactory digital read outs for up to 2in travel and $10 digital calipers off eBay could do the carriage. Not ideal but better than nothing and I used them on my weird old lathe for a couple of years quite happily.


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## spongerich (Apr 17, 2015)

98rangerll said:


> The saddle is the only place I see any wear but I am going to try and adjust the Gibson and see what that does just this morning found a 618 on Craigslist for a 100 bucks I emailed the guy waiting to hear back now with any luck since he listed it late last night and I emailed at 2 am I'm hoping I'm first on the list



Damn... $100.  You'd better get there before I do


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## 98rangerll (Apr 17, 2015)

Tryed to but someone beat me to it I emailed and called and told them to call or text and say when was good and I would be there but by the time they took my call they said someone just picked it up


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## 98rangerll (Apr 17, 2015)

I was all sitting in my truck ready to drive to get it to


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## wa5cab (Apr 18, 2015)

You have my condolences.    Unfortunately, Craigs List is pretty poorly regulated and this sort of thing apparently happens frequently.  Keep looking.


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## ICanBreakIt (Apr 21, 2015)

Something like this would be a relatively cheap DRO mod:


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## great white (Apr 21, 2015)

BUmme


98rangerll said:


> Tryed to but someone beat me to it I emailed and called and told them to call or text and say when was good and I would be there but by the time they took my call they said someone just picked it up


Bummer, but it's not the only one out there. If there's one thing life has taught me it's that another will be along sooner or later.

But for only 100 bucks, it'll probably be later rather than sooner.....


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## 98rangerll (Apr 21, 2015)

Yeah unfortunately but I'm keeping my eyes peeled


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## master53yoda (Apr 25, 2015)

I went to a tail stock that was threaded 1/2 x 20 and went away from the mt 0 completely.  I made a live center that threaded on to the tail stock.   It made a large difference in the ridgidity of the lathe.    It allowed me to thread longer shafts without problems.    the only real problem is that the feed screw is left hand thread so I had to by a 5/16 24 left hand tap to thread the tail stock.

Art B


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