# South bend 9a wiring



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

Hello, noob here I just got my first lathe and the previous owner cut the wires. I want to fire it up and see if the motor works ( he said it did ) but want to make sure this is not a 3 phase. What's throwing me off is that the green wire ( I think is the ground  yes/no? ) is going into the motor?  Also in the control box I don't see anything grounded? Can anyone help me understand this plz.


----------



## Blackjackjacques (Dec 15, 2017)

I have never seen a switched ground wire. Traditionally, grounding conductors are fixed to the metal enclosure as a means of trapping a ground fault. It may have been that at some time, someone changed conductors.  You could safely experiment and place the two black cambric conductors emanating from the motor and place across the 240 V line and see if she spins up.  However, the 1.8 / 2 A nameplate rating at 3-phase does commensurate with a 1 HP motor as what appears to be in your case, and you very well may have a 3-phase motor.


----------



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

Blackjackjacques said:


> I have never seen a switched ground wire. Traditionally, grounding conductors are fixed to the metal enclosure as a means of trapping a ground fault. It may have been that at some time, someone changed conductors.  You could safely experiment and place the two black cambric conductors emanating from the motor and place across the 240 V line and see if she spins up.  However, the 1.8 / 2 A nameplate rating at 3-phase does commensurate with a 1 HP motor as what appears to be in your case, and you very well may have a 3-phase motor.


This is a 1/2hp motor. I though that a 3 phase has a min.. of 4 wires no? and can I do a test with only 220v on a 3 phase don't I need a converter?


----------



## Blackjackjacques (Dec 15, 2017)

seneca said:


> This is a 1/2hp motor. I though that a 3 phase has a min.. of 4 wires no? and can I do a test with only 220v on a 3 phase don't I need a converter?



I did not see any hp figure on the nameplate, but if it is indeed a 1/2 hp, then 1.8 A does correspond with single phase.   I don't recall ever seeing a 1/2 hp three phase motor, so it seems you have a single phase motor.  To answer yuor other questions:  A 3-phase motor is usually only three wires.  The only time you will see 4 wires in a  3-phase supply system is when they bring the common node out for purposes of ground-fault detection, or if phase to neutral voltage is needed -- not applicable here.   You can try placing the motor conductors across 220/240 V single phase and see if it works.  If the motor comes up to speed quickly, then you have a single phase motor.  If she hums, staggers and seems reluctant, then you may have a 3-phase motor, or maybe a defective motor.  As for the drum switch connected green wire, it may be that the green wire is wired to permit reverse rotation.  Look at the drum switch and try and trace the conductors. If reverse rotation position corresponds with a connection to the green wire, it may explain the 3rd conductor.


----------



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

Blackjackjacques said:


> I did not see any hp figure on the nameplate, but if it is indeed a 1/2 hp, then 1.8 A does correspond with single phase.   I don't recall ever seeing a 1/2 hp three phase motor, so it seems you have a single phase motor.  To answer yuor other questions:  A 3-phase motor is usually only three wires.  The only time you will see 4 wires in a  3-phase supply system is when they bring the common node out for purposes of ground-fault detection, or if phase to neutral voltage is needed -- not applicable here.   You can try placing the motor conductors across 220/240 V single phase and see if it works.  If the motor comes up to speed quickly, then you have a single phase motor.  If she hums, staggers and seems reluctant, then you may have a 3-phase motor, or maybe a defective motor.  As for the drum switch connected green wire, it may be that the green wire is wired to permit reverse rotation.  Look at the drum switch and try and trace the conductors. If reverse rotation position corresponds with a connection to the green wire, it may explain the 3rd conductor.


Ok thank you very much this all new to me. Ill run it over the 220 wires and see what happens.


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 15, 2017)

If it doesn't work, post a top view of the drum switch showing all the wires.  We'll go from there. It could be 3 phase after all.
Mark S.


----------



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

Ok so I hooked up the 220 wires to just the motor just to see if she would turn. No go, it gave a hum but wouldn't spin. Here are the photos.


----------



## Blackjackjacques (Dec 15, 2017)

The very last photo looks like it shows three conductors coming from the motor, and green tape on the one conductor. Looking more and more now like a 3 phase motor.


----------



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

Blackjackjacques said:


> The very last photo looks like it shows three conductors coming from the motor, and green tape on the one conductor. Looking more and more now like a 3 phase motor.


Well that's a bummer guys that sold it to me said it was a single phase.  I cant use that.


----------



## Blackjackjacques (Dec 15, 2017)

seneca said:


> Well that's a bummer guys that sold it to me said it was a single phase.  I cant use that.



No despair - if it is a 3 phase motor, you can use a converter, and for a 1/2 hp motor, it wouldn't be very large or expensive, and there is tons of info here regarding such items.  However, you can pick up a static unit for $50.00 here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Sm...2-3-HP-American-Rotary-DS-1-2-3-/371405692360

But first confirm it is a 3 phase motor.  Are there three leads coming out of the motor housing?


----------



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

Also I don't understand how its grounds in the switch box? is there no ground when its put into reverse?


----------



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

Blackjackjacques said:


> No despair - if it is a 3 phase motor, you can use a converter, and for a 1/2 hp motor, it wouldn't be very large or expensive, and there is tons of info here regarding such items.  However, you can pick up a static unit for $50.00 here:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Sm...2-3-HP-American-Rotary-DS-1-2-3-/371405692360
> 
> But first confirm it is a 3 phase motor.  Are there three leads coming out of the motor housing?


yes all 3 wire come up from the motor.


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 15, 2017)

OK first thing to clarify here: your green is not ground, here it is being used as a power carrying conductor (and it's bad practice to do so)
but the wiring at the drum switch looks like a 3 phase connection at first glance but it doesn't look correct- the green would be shorted to the black in one of the switch positions which would trip the breaker.  So it must be an odd single phase motor- you got a multimeter handy?
Mark
ps I should mention that if the green IS in fact a ground and it is being switched that is also bad practice.


----------



## Eddyde (Dec 15, 2017)

I agree with Mark, the green wire is not a ground. 
Which of the three motor wires did you hook up to the 220 V line?


----------



## Blackjackjacques (Dec 15, 2017)

seneca said:


> yes all 3 wire come up from the motor.



Could be a 3 phase motor, or an odd single phase motor as Mark suggested.  Sounds like Mark is going to guide thru making some measurements to know for sure - so grab yer meter and get ready for an education.


----------



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> OK first thing to clarify here: your green is not ground, here it is being used as a power carrying conductor (and it's bad practice to do so)
> but the wiring at the drum switch looks like a 3 phase connection at first glance but it doesn't look correct- the green would be shorted to the black in one of the switch positions which would trip the breaker.  So it must be an odd single phase motor- you got a multimeter handy?
> Mark


Hello mark. I do have one but my family and I had made plans to go up north for the weekend. I’ll be home sometime Sunday  evening. I can take any instructions  you give and can do them Sunday or Monday. Thank you! I’m stuck on what i need to do.


----------



## seneca (Dec 15, 2017)

Thank you everyone for your help. My family and I are out of town until Sunday evening. I will be right back on this as soon as I get home but happy wife happy life right   really appreciate all your input guys. Thank you.


----------



## Blackjackjacques (Dec 18, 2017)

seneca said:


> This is a 1/2hp motor. I though that a 3 phase has a min.. of 4 wires no? and can I do a test with only 220v on a 3 phase don't I need a converter?


A quick question that is likely irrelevant - how do you know the motor is 1/2 hp...I did not see that on the name plate?


----------



## seneca (Dec 18, 2017)

Blackjackjacques said:


> A quick question that is likely irrelevant - how do you know the motor is 1/2 hp...I did not see that on the name plate?


Ok I'm back in town today, I'm just going by what I think the motor tag says..


I have a motor co. outside of town and I took it there and they said its a 3 phase...Now I'm unsure if I should use a  Static phase converter that says its 93% proficiency or if I should use a Rotary converter and get 100% of the motors rated horsepower. I'm not sure how much HP I can lose on a 1/2hp motor. The rotary phase converter is a lot more expensive. I'm  hoping 93% of the total 1/2hp is fine. What do you guys think?


----------



## Eddyde (Dec 18, 2017)

How about just buying a ½ hp single phase motor?


----------



## seneca (Dec 18, 2017)

I though about that but if I can keep it original ill go that way and a converter seem to be a little less than a new motor.


----------



## seneca (Dec 18, 2017)

Idk maybe getting a 1/2 to 3/4hp 220 motor is a better idea. Really looking for some guidance and your guys experience.


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 18, 2017)

There are actually 2 kinds of static converters, the first is simple and cheap and only gives about 2/3 power. I've seen plans to roll your own.
The second is all solid state and more than 90% efficient, but expensive.  The rotary type is cheaper than the solid state. 
Then you have a VFD or variable frequency drive which can be used as a 1 phase to 3 phase converter. (some models)
Personally, I don't know if I would want to risk investing in electronic drive units for an old motor like that. I would want at a minimum to have the motor tested for leakage and inspect the windings for deteriorating insulation.  
Mark


----------



## seneca (Dec 18, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> There are actually 2 kinds of static converters, the first is simple and cheap and only gives about 2/3 power. I've seen plans to roll your own.
> The second is all solid state and more than 90% efficient, but expensive.  The rotary type is cheaper than the solid state.
> Then you have a VFD or variable frequency drive which can be used as a 1 phase to 3 phase converter. (some models)


what way do you think is best or what way should I go? I really don't know. or even get a new motor?


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 19, 2017)

Tough choice I know, why not just look for a used single phase motor of about 1/3 to 1/2 HP, shouldn't be too costly (maybe even free)
Mark


----------



## Eddyde (Dec 19, 2017)

You can't go wrong with a new motor. Original parts are nice on vintage machinery, however, I doubt any potential buyer will see a new motor as a negative.


----------



## seneca (Dec 19, 2017)

Ok before I go with the 3 phase converter box ill look into a new single phase. only Small problem is that my 4 motor pulleys are on a  3/4 spindle rod and seems that 1/2 , 5/8 is what's common these days.


----------



## Eddyde (Dec 19, 2017)

A shaft bushing, sometimes new motors come with them.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-8-x-3-4-...ducer-Sleeve-Bushing-Sheave-Key-/251943004476


----------



## seneca (Dec 19, 2017)

Eddyde said:


> A shaft bushing, sometimes new motors come with them.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-8-x-3-4-...ducer-Sleeve-Bushing-Sheave-Key-/251943004476


oh! thank you!


----------



## seneca (Dec 19, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> There are actually 2 kinds of static converters, the first is simple and cheap and only gives about 2/3 power. I've seen plans to roll your own.
> The second is all solid state and more than 90% efficient, but expensive.  The rotary type is cheaper than the solid state.
> Then you have a VFD or variable frequency drive which can be used as a 1 phase to 3 phase converter. (some models)
> Personally, I don't know if I would want to risk investing in electronic drive units for an old motor like that. I would want at a minimum to have the motor tested for leakage and inspect the windings for deteriorating insulation.
> Mark


Is the solid state converter able to go forward and reverse? just had I guys form American rotary co told me that ( ALL ) converters except, the rotary are only 2/3 power and only the rotary will do forward and reverse?


----------



## dlane (Dec 19, 2017)

Ied look into a vfd and 3ph motor


----------



## Blackjackjacques (Dec 19, 2017)

seneca said:


> Ok I'm back in town today, I'm just going by what I think the motor tag says..
> View attachment 250161
> 
> I have a motor co. outside of town and I took it there and they said its a 3 phase...Now I'm unsure if I should use a  Static phase converter that says its 93% proficiency or if I should use a Rotary converter and get 100% of the motors rated horsepower. I'm not sure how much HP I can lose on a 1/2hp motor. The rotary phase converter is a lot more expensive. I'm  hoping 93% of the total 1/2hp is fine. What do you guys think?



Yup - it shows a 1/2 hp.  For whatever reason, that is not evident in the earlier pictures.  It seems strange that your seller would represent that it was single phase when it was indeed three phase.   Did the out of town motor company determine it was 3 phase by connecting it - or just because there are three leads coming from the motor?


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 19, 2017)

ANY 3 phase motor can be reversed by swapping two of the three wires.  Not sure about what American told you? Sounds like the person you spoke to is/was misinformed or you mis-heard what they said
M
ps BlackJaques is correct- we don't know for 100% certain that your motor is 3 phase until you have actually connected it and seen it run


----------



## markba633csi (Dec 19, 2017)

Seneca: can you take the motor apart and see if there is a centrifugal switch mechanism in there? If not the mystery is solved, it's 3 phase.
Mark
ps alternately, if you measure any two windings/wires resistance they should read the same, but you need an ohmmeter that has an X1 range (many don't)


----------



## seneca (Dec 19, 2017)

The motor co.. I took it to hooked it up, ran it and they said it was a 3 phase 220.
Starting to look like its just going to be easier , cheaper  and work better for my needs if I just get a new single phase 1/2 or 3/4 motor with a frame adapter from 66 to 56.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 19, 2017)

if it were my lathe,
i'd get a cheap chinese VFD and operate the motor at 60Hz and be done with it 
(you'll be out less than $100 for the drive)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motor-Driv...epid=0&hash=item3d533cb337:g:4qcAAOSw6DVaNAyi


----------



## dlane (Dec 19, 2017)

^x2


----------



## Blackjackjacques (Dec 19, 2017)

seneca said:


> The motor co.. I took it to hooked it up, ran it and they said it was a 3 phase 220.
> Starting to look like its just going to be easier , cheaper  and work better for my needs if I just get a new single phase 1/2 or 3/4 motor with a frame adapter from 66 to 56.



If they ran it, then it is 3 phase.  Ulma's $62 solution for a cheap chicom vfd will resolve your issue without stinging too much.


----------



## seneca (Dec 20, 2017)

Great thx for all the help guys!


----------

