# Pm 25 Vs. Pm 727



## Buggy Chief (Sep 28, 2016)

New to the forum and addiction  I am currently researching the 727 and 25.  I taught myself to TIG Weld Aluminum as well as steel over the past 7 years by asking questions on forums and this seems to be no exception.

With that, I am leaning towards the 25 as I will be working with aluminum and lighter steel.  I see that the price difference is about $200.  Being new to this, is the fact that the 727 doesn't have a digital readout for RPM an issue?  How do you tell what RPM?  Do you get a ton more benefits with 727 relative to working capacity by stepping up to the 727?  Thanks in advance.


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 28, 2016)

I have a PM25 and am content with it. 
The 727 has change gears, not a variable belt drive so the gear you are in determines the RPM, no need for a tach. The 727 has almost twice the spindle travel of the 25, this is a plus. The 727 is almost 200 lbs heavier than the 25, another plus, give stability, to eliminate vibrations. It (the 727) has 15 inches of X travel, the 25 has about 18, the more travel  you have the longer piece of work  you can work on without moving it. 
I prefer the variable speed, I can drill a hole at high speed then tap it at low speed with a twist of the dial. To me this is worth some of the difference. 
Hope this helps, hope others chime in, too.


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## Buggy Chief (Sep 28, 2016)

T Bredehoft said:


> I have a PM25 and am content with it.
> The 727 has change gears, not a variable belt drive so the gear you are in determines the RPM, no need for a tach. The 727 has almost twice the spindle travel of the 25, this is a plus. The 727 is almost 200 lbs heavier than the 25, another plus, give stability, to eliminate vibrations. It (the 727) has 15 inches of X travel, the 25 has about 18, the more travel  you have the longer piece of work  you can work on without moving it.
> I prefer the variable speed, I can drill a hole at high speed then tap it at low speed with a twist of the dial. To me this is worth some of the difference.
> Hope this helps, hope others chime in, too.


Great points.  Didn't consider the weight.  I really appreciate the input!!


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## wrmiller (Sep 28, 2016)

It all comes down to what you intend to do with the machine. Both are capable machines, within their intended work envelope. If you want to work on stuff that requires the larger envelope, then you need the larger machine. I had a PM25 and it worked very well (and accurately) for what I was doing on it. I personally prefer a belt-driven BLDC to a gear head arrangement, but that's just a personal preference. Also, the 727 is a wet-head and may leak/drip if not looked after. The 25 is a dry head and won't have that potential problem. My last bench mill was a 9x40 from Charter Oak. One of the first mods to it was to gut the head/remove the gears and put in a two-speed belt drive. Much quieter and smoother cutting. Or maybe the reduction in noise just made me think it was smoother...


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## lpeedin (Sep 28, 2016)

The table size on the two machines is the same.  There is a decrease of X-travel due to a wider saddle on the 727 which adds stability on the outer ends of the travel.  I have the 727 and feel that I made the right decision as I was also leaning towards the 25.  I initially thought that only having 6 speeds would limit me but it has not been a problem at all.  The torque that you get on the low rpm settings translates into using larger drill bits and end mills with ease.  Personally, the only thing that I would like to be different about my machine would be to increase the x-travel a few inches.  The extra quill travel is a definite plus with the 727.  It really helps when drilling thicker parts.


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## tweinke (Sep 28, 2016)

3dshooter80 said:


> The table size on the two machines is the same.  There is a decrease of X-travel due to a wider saddle on the 727 which adds stability on the outer ends of the travel.  I have the 727 and feel that I made the right decision as I was also leaning towards the 25.  I initially thought that only having 6 speeds would limit me but it has not been a problem at all.  The torque that you get on the low rpm settings translates into using larger drill bits and end mills with ease.  Personally, the only thing that I would like to be different about my machine would be to increase the x-travel a few inches.  The extra quill travel is a definite plus with the 727.  It really helps when drilling thicker parts.



I bought a 727 this year and am very satisfied, with that said what 3d said is how I feel


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## Buggy Chief (Sep 28, 2016)

Thanks for all of the helpful input!!  Very handy!!


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## tweinke (Sep 28, 2016)

Both machines are very capable, I was going to go with a PM-25MV initially but decided for the extra bucks more weight and spindle travel would be nice. I do work mostly in steel so top RPM was not a limiting factor. in the future I would like to change over to a three phase motor/ VFD to increase the speed range a bit. For me my PM-727M will always be a manual machine so blazing fast spindle speeds will not be required the way I see it. These words are spoken by someone who knows enough to get into trouble but has the common sense to look here to find the correct answers.


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## Buggy Chief (Sep 29, 2016)

tweinke said:


> Both machines are very capable, I was going to go with a PM-25MV initially but decided for the extra bucks more weight and spindle travel would be nice. I do work mostly in steel so top RPM was not a limiting factor. in the future I would like to change over to a three phase motor/ VFD to increase the speed range a bit. For me my PM-727M will always be a manual machine so blazing fast spindle speeds will not be required the way I see it. These words are spoken by someone who knows enough to get into trouble but has the common sense to look here to find the correct answers.


Thanks for the feedback.  Being a novice and beginner, I will be doing a mix of aluminum and Steel.  Question is, I keep seeing folks say they would like to change motors to a three phase VFD...What does that entail relative to cost and modifications?


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## mksj (Sep 29, 2016)

You would need a new 3 phase 1 Hp metric C face motor (Leeson, Marathon, etc. with the same mounting specifications or some adapter plate) and a VFD, most likely a single phase input of 120V and an output of 240V 3 phase. You could remove the high voltage from the contactors and use one set of contacts on each contactor to control the VFD direction. Providing you can find a motor that fits this machine, you are probably looking at around $350-400 in parts to do the conversion. There is no need to up-size the motor with 6 gear speed gearbox.  You also do not have the issues of the capacitors going south, and I would expect more torque out of a 3 phase motor. Probably top out at 2100 RPM with the VFD set to 80Hz. If you can get a drop in motor replacement, you are looking at a few hours to do the conversion. Would make for a very nice mill.
Example:
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/MARATHON-R373.html
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...ts_(115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC)/GS2-11P0
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/LEESON-174605/


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## rwm (Apr 7, 2019)

I am reviving this old thread to ask a question of PM 25, 30 ,727 owners. I am considering building a base for this mill that is lower than usual. The base would be about 24" high which would put the table at around 32". The plan would be to be seated in front of the mill rather than having to stand. Does anyone see an issue with this? Any other comments on height? I assume ya'll typically stand when operating? 
Robert


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## darkzero (Apr 7, 2019)

I don't know, I'm not of fan of sitting while using a lathe or mill or any machinery that requires full attention. Slower to react when sitting if a mishap were to happen. But then again if there's something that prevents you from standing in front of the mill then that is a different story.

Would be cheaper & easier to just get a nice stool for the height you want if you must sit.


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## 7milesup (Apr 7, 2019)

Bad idea to sit in front of a machine like that.  I'm with DarkZero in the concern of not being able to react to a situation should one arise.


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## rwm (Apr 7, 2019)

What could go wrong with a machine tool in front of your carotid artery?
R


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## T Bredehoft (Apr 7, 2019)

Sitting in front, cranking the X  wheel will mean  getting up to do it. Ditto the Z axiis.


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## rwm (Apr 8, 2019)

I have a chair with wheels so I am somewhat mobile even when sitting. I feel like I could reach the x and  the y and the z will probably be electric. I'm remain confused about the proper working height. The PM mills have a table height on the factory stand of about 36". That seems low to me for standing. I was thinking about more like 42" off the floor for the table?
And while we are talking about these mills, does anyone have the power x feed made for PM and if so how is it? Should I get that or go to another brand for that component?
Robert


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## WyoGreen (Apr 10, 2019)

Hi rwm, I have the power x feed from PM on my PM30, and it works fine. As it comes from PM, it has an adapter that clamps on the left end of the table. It worked, but was slightly noisy depending on how you adjusted the adapter bolts. It also made cleaning out that left end "tray" difficult.
 I replaced that clamping arrangement with a new table end  that the power feed bolts directly to. It's much quieter now and seems to run smoother.  I guess I ought to get busy one of these days and post some pictures of the changes I've made to the PM30 since I got it.
Steve


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## rwm (Apr 10, 2019)

Yes! Post so pics. I want to see that power feed setup.
I notice the PM power feed is sold by Shars under a different name.
Robert


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## starr256 (Apr 11, 2019)

I considered the PM-25 and went with the PM-27V with DRO. The kicker was the variable speed option that gave a higher RPM and easier speed changes. That was six months ago. I also got the stand and found that it was too low for my liking. Wound up welding on 3" tubing and leveling feet to get better height. The DRO is worth its cost. Did not get the X power feed and regret that decision. Will be getting it later this year. I do use a stool when doing repetitive operations, such as cutting gears.


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## rwm (Apr 21, 2019)

starr256 said:


> I considered the PM-25 and went with the PM-27V with DRO. The kicker was the variable speed option that gave a higher RPM and easier speed changes. That was six months ago. I also got the stand and found that it was too low for my liking. Wound up welding on 3" tubing and leveling feet to get better height. The DRO is worth its cost. Did not get the X power feed and regret that decision. Will be getting it later this year. I do use a stool when doing repetitive operations, such as cutting gears.


This is currently on backorder. Are you happy with the factory install of the DRO? Did they do a nice job with the install details? 
Robert


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## starr256 (Apr 22, 2019)

I am happy with the mill and the DRO installation. Installation is very professional looking and the sensors inconspicuously placed and do not limit the travel of the table or the head. I use the quill DRO (looks like part of a digital caliper) more than the head DRO. The variable speed feature is well worth the extra expense.


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## Ozbusa67 (Oct 26, 2019)

This site is great just answered all my questions without asking one question that's why I signed up for this forum thanks guys


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## matthewsx (Oct 26, 2019)

Welcome to the forum.

We're ready for your next question 

JOhn


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## Ozbusa67 (Oct 26, 2019)

What are the first set of tooling would you buy to play with aluminum and cold roll steel. Thanks for a lot of help with all the great answers


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## Ozbusa67 (Oct 26, 2019)

I decided to go with 727v and I will do the dro. Later my budget is kind of limited


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## matthewsx (Oct 26, 2019)

Vise, hold down set, measuring tools, end mills, boring head, flycutter, and of course Safety Glasses.


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## matthewsx (Oct 26, 2019)

Limited budget? Who has that 

Measuring tools are essential but you don't need super expensive ones to start. A vise is critical too and this is an area where you may want to spend a little more, it doesn't have to be a Curt but don't go with the cheapest thing on eBay either. Other tooling you need really depends on what your first projects are likely to be. 

Give that some thought and check out some of the other threads on what tools to buy and come back with more questions....



			https://www.hobby-machinist.com/search/78338/?q=tooling+for+new+mill&o=relevance
		



Cheers,

John


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## Ozbusa67 (Oct 26, 2019)

Thanks  a good vise choice .


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## matthewsx (Oct 26, 2019)

Ozbusa67 said:


> Thanks  a good vise choice .



Shars has some deals going now, here's my thread asking the question from a few weeks back. Should give a starting point for research.









						4" vise - help choosing the right one
					

So, I'm at the point where my CNC mill/drill project is just about ready to start making actual parts and I think I need to buy a 4" milling vise to replace the hardware store drill press vise I've been using to test. My table is flat cast aluminum and I have some more cast pieces that I think...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




john


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## matthewsx (Oct 26, 2019)

Also making stuff yourself can build skills and produce tooling you can really be proud of.









						shop made tooling
					

I am not sure where to put this but I think it fits here. Many of you know I make my own tooling and my primary reason  ( besides I need it) is to show others how to have quality tooling at a low cost. I got an email from someone, don't know if they are on here or another forum I used to belong...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




John


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## Ozbusa67 (Oct 28, 2019)

Thanks matthews
For the help I have putting list together


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