# spindle chucks? (and more newbie questions)



## synfinatic (Jan 24, 2018)

So looking to get my first lathe and I'm trying to understand something I keep reading regarding spindle chucks.  Basically, everyone talks about how something like a D1-4 chuck is so much better then say the spindle that you get on the 1030V.  Basically it comes down to being able to buy different chucks since the D1-4 is an industry standard.... or at least that's what I seem to gather?

So here's the stupid question I can't seem to figure out:

Once you have a 3 jaw chuck, a 4 jaw chuck and maybe a face plate or two, what else would you need?  

That said, I find myself looking at the 1030 vs 1236.  Yeah, pretty big difference between those two, but the 1127 and 1228 are missing some metric threads and 90% of what I would end up doing is metric and I can't imagine buying a lathe that can't do M4 and/or M5 coarse threads.  Not sure I'll ever need the bigger machine, but I don't think anyone ever complained that their lathe was too big/heavy and I'd rather just buy once and amortize the cost over the next few decades then buy small and upgrade in a few years.   Right now I'm guessing most of my work will be done in aluminum (mostly telescope and motorcycle parts) so the 1HP DC motor on the 1030V is probably fine, but who knows what the next decade or two holds. That said, not dealing with so many change gears sounds really nice.

Sounds like I should expect better finishing with the variable speed on the 1030 vs. the gearbox driven 1236?  I assume the 1236 is "good enough" and it's mostly minor cosmetic?  Not like I plan on every quitting my day job and trying to make a living making parts in my garage.  That said, I'd rather go with a belt driven lathe to start off with then the gearbox... seems like less likely to have issues for a newbie starting out.

Is the preferred package on the 1236 worth the extra $400?  Seems like if everything it includes is of decent quality it seems like it would be a no-brainer, but maybe I'm better off buying things like the QCTP piecemeal?  Not sure if coolant for manual/hobbyist use is worth the mess?

I'm kinda surprised by how many people end up getting carbide tooling for these small lathes?  Or is mostly everyone working in steel so the lack of a higher speed spindle less of an issue?  I totally get that carbide is "drop in" and doesn't require learning how to grind HSS, but doesn't sound like it's too hard? Maybe it's worth starting off with carbide because it's drop in and easier to get going with? 

Honestly, the 1030V seems like it's "enough" for me for my current needs, but the 1236 seems like a significant and worthwhile upgrade.  Maybe I should save my pennies for a little longer?

Thanks!


----------



## ttabbal (Jan 24, 2018)

There are a couple reasons to like D1 chucks. Availability is nice. They also install and remove much easier. That said, the current 1022/1030 method looks reasonably easy to work with. If you ever want to use collets or other holders, you will have to make an adapter for them. That doesn't look difficult, but it's something to be aware of. 

I was originally looking at the 1030 as well. The chucks helped convince me to move up. The bed is also wider, thus more ridgid. The ways are hardened and bearings are improved in the larger models. The spindle through hole being larger is also nice. 

I went with the 1127. Looking at the manual, I think the thread pitches you mentioned are available. A search says M4 is 0.7 and M5 is 0.8. Both are listed on the thread chart. Fine thread for both is listed as 0.5, which is also available. I can't imagine the 1228 wouldn't be able to do them as well. 

If you can swing the cost, the 1236 with the preferred package would be my first choice. I don't know that I would use the coolant, but the other features are nice. The stand being included is nice as well. I was running up against the budget and decided to go with the middle ground.


----------



## mikey (Jan 24, 2018)

I'll start this off and the other guys can chip in.

A D1-4 camlock spindle is, as you say, an industry standard. It allows you to buy any D1-4 camlock chuck and it will fit right on your spindle. This is a bigger deal than it might seem because you can buy better chucks, more accurate chucks and not have to mount them on a backplate and deal with the potential inaccuracy of such a thing. It also allows you to run in reverse without worrying about the chuck coming loose like you would with a threaded chuck. The PM1030 comes with a three stud/locking ring affair that only fits that configuration and this locks you into chucks that fit that DIN standard. To my knowledge, that limits you to Asian chucks and perhaps some European chucks. Otherwise, you have to use a backplate.

As for what other chucks you might fit onto the spindle, the commonest ones will be a collet chuck of some kind (ER, 5C) or a Adjust-Tru type of chuck for when you need speed and accuracy. 

There are many important differences between the 1236 and the 1030V besides the motor. The 1236 is a gear head lathe but it also has a separate drive shaft for the carriage (instead of being driven by the leadscrew), hardened and ground ways, hardened and ground spindle running in precision bearings for improved accuracy, hardened and ground gears, a wider bed width for improved rigidity and a bigger tailstock quill that allows you to drill larger holes and provide better rigidity when using a live center. The 1236 also has a 1.5" spindle bore and believe me, this capacity is going to come in handy one day. 

I will admit that VS is really nice to have but keep in mind that the feed on these lathes is tied to the spindle gearing. As you increase speed, you also increase feed. So, it might be nice to dial in the speed but it won't make that much of a difference in finish because the feed rate is linked. If speed and feed were independently variable then yes, that would be awesome ... but its not. Top speed, on the other hand, does matter but the importance of that depends on the size of your work piece and the materials you use. For aluminum, the faster the better. On a bike, you'll use stainless steel, too, and that will require lower speeds so it depends. I doubt you will notice a difference of 200 rpm at the top end. On the bottom end, you can go down to 65 rpm on the 1236; I am not sure how much torque you'll have at 50 rpm on the 1030V. This matters when you're thread cutting; the slower you can go, the better.

The preferred package is a great deal for the cost. The foot brake on my lathe cost almost $600 alone. The leadscrew clutch will save your gear train in the event of a crash and you get a carriage stop for precision boring. The QCTP should be adequate, although you can always spring for an Aloris or Dorian package that will cost more than the entire preferred package. The LED light is nice and you don't have to use the coolant system; I don't. Personally, if I were to buy the 1236, I would opt for the preferred package.

You should be able to cut all common Imperial and Metric threads on the 1236. If in doubt, call Matt and double check. If there is a change gear set for whichever lathe you buy, spring for it now while it is available. Many of us feel that a lathe is not complete without a change gear set. 

As for lathe tools, carbide is a common choice among new guys who don't know how to grind a HSS tool. These tools will work for you as you learn to use the lathe, and well beyond. You do not have to use HSS, although it is a good idea to try them and see for yourself which works better for you. I have an 11" lathe and use HSS 90% of the time. 

When you compare lathes, consider the build features first. Compared to the 1030V, the 1236 is not just a bigger lathe. It is a better lathe with all the features you expect on a lathe you can expect to live with for some time to come. 

AND if you want better, look what you can get for just a few hundred dollars more ...


----------



## Tozguy (Jan 24, 2018)

Just to endorse a few ideas:

Don't plan to upgrade later, go for it now, it will be more expensive in the long run if you skimp at the start.

Get a good package deal with as much equipment as possible, adding stuff later is much more expensive. After all, it will be less expensive than a new motorcycle.

Don't under-estimate your ability. You will grow into good versatile equipment very quickly. You will want to try more operations than you can imagine now. Keep your options open, time passes quickly.

Buy new, D1-4, QCGB and QCTP are more necessary than cell phones and are more fun.


----------



## FLguy (Jan 24, 2018)

Mikey is spot on !  I had to select a smaller lathe due to the extremely small area I have as a shop. The "D" chucks are faster to change out when needed. Buying a PM product I feel you get more for your money also.


----------



## Chipper5783 (Jan 24, 2018)

Above comments are all good.  You said that on the threads that you cut, they will mostly be metric threads.  Consider a machine with a metric lead screw.  Yes, you can cut metric threads on a machine with an imperial lead screw - but it is a bit of a work around (you can't disingage the halfnut until you are finished).  The feed selections do not matter to whether the lead screw is metric or imperial.  Also, you'll get a more complete selection of metric threads if you have a metric lead screw (with an imperial lead screw and the metric conversion gear, there are usually a few pitches that you can't get to without using the change gears).


----------



## ttabbal (Jan 24, 2018)

I forgot about the half-nut thing when threading for metric. That would be somewhat annoying. I think I would probably just buy some nice taps and dies for at least the smaller threads. 

I haven't seen any tools small enough to single-point an M3 internal thread anyway... Hey Mikey, want to grind us one?


----------



## synfinatic (Jan 24, 2018)

Thanks everyone for the info!

ttabbal: You're right about the 0.8 on the 1127, but I can't seem to find 0.7 in the manual and none of the photos on the QMT site seems to have a decent picture of the threading table on the machine itself.  The 1228 seems to be missing 0.8.  The 1236 has the best metric coverage of the 1030, 1127, 1228 and 1236, but the 1030 would be fine unless I end up cutting very large threads (M30 or larger) which at least on a motorcycle seems unlikely.  Even my motor mounts are just M8 or M12.  Swing arm pivot bolt might be a little larger, but not by much.

Mikey: Thanks for the info on the spindle.  That helps.  Yeah, I was aware of many of the features, but honestly some of the build quality differences between the two that you mentioned I missed.  Seems like the quality of the machine increases pretty significantly once you step up to the 1127 and beyond.

Chipper5783: So do you know of something in the 1236 range with metric lead screws?  Even though I'm an American, I think in metric since my motorcycles are a mix of Italian and Japanese.  That's one nice thing that the 1236 seems to have though: inches and metric on the dials.  Doesn't seem like the other models below it have metric.

Seems like everyone is recommending the 1236 (guess I shouldn't be surprised).  Has anyone seen the optional cast iron stand or the stock welded one?  I assume if I can swing it I should get the cast iron one.

Also, I should probably reach out to Matt and confirm the missing metric pitches I'm seeing in the manuals for the 1127 and 1228.  If it wasn't for the metric thread issues, is there any strong reason to re-consider them?  The QCGB on the 1236 and 2HP AC motor seems like the best combination.  Not sure if the 2HP DC motor on the 1228 makes will do stainless well?   If I ever really want, I can always add a 3phase + VFD to the 1236, but I can't ever add that the QCGB to the others.


----------



## mksj (Jan 24, 2018)

I would not look at having a lathe that can do every conceivable metric thread you might think you need, in the smaller threads you are better off just cutting the thread with a die. Also there are sometimes optional change gears available that give you more threading options that are not listed so you would need to check with Matt. The 1030 and 1127 are limited in a number of areas, one being the chuck options, you also have just a few feed/thread choices via the gearbox, everything else is change gears which is cumbersome and time consuming. The 1128 with be an entry point with a wider range gearbox and fewer change gears. If you are talking about a QCGB (Norton type) you would be looking at the Taiwanese made 1236GT or 1340GT and not the 1236. The former two can be configured to do just about any metric thread, I have a gear chart calculator with the available threads. PM me if you want a copy. I have installed quite a few control VFD systems for different types of lathe that uses an electronic stop system for threading, as such the half-nut is not disengaged through the threading process so doing metric threads is easy. About half of my machining is metric, and also cutting a wide variety of threads. You can always add a VFD system at a later point. A 2Hp DC motor on the 1228 will be no different than a 2Hp motor with a VFD for the most part, they will both have plenty of power for what you want to do. If you go with the Chinese PM 1236 then I would go with the cast iron base, as the price difference is nominal and weight/dampening of the base is always a plus.

Below are two postings which show how a lathe electronic stop system works and that the half-nut remains engaged until done.


----------



## ttabbal (Jan 24, 2018)

The 1127 thread chart is in the PDF manual. Page 27. 0.8 is on the second chart on the left, bottom left corner. 

0.7 is on the first chart, top left. Oops.. that's 0.07. I was on my phone when I posted that. And I think that chart is the feed rates. ugh. I hate icons. I don't see 0.7 listed. I'm sure it can be done with the right gear combo though. 

I believe someone posted a spreadsheet on this forum somewhere that calculates all the possible combinations for a given set of change gears. The ones on the chart aren't the only possibilities, they are just the most commonly used ones. 

Most of the import lathes have metric screws. The down side is they sell them here with dials converted to imperial. Stupid. I'd rather have an all-metric or all-imperial. Even if it means a little more hassle when I want to single-point thread something in the other system. And if I want to cut to metric specs, I can just use indicators in metric and/or a DRO and ignore the handwheel scales. 

*mksj: *Could you post the calculator here? It would be useful for all owners of these machines. As I mentioned, I have an 1127 coming and I would like to have it. I would also like to hear about your threading stop system. The 1127 page says it uses a VFD, so I should be able to do the same, right?


----------



## mksj (Jan 24, 2018)

ttabbal, the gear chart is specific to the 1236/1340GT and the 1440GT models. Essential you use a spreadsheet to look at your current gear ratios, and then plug in other combinations for other change gears.  Information for these have charts that have been previously posted, see the links below.  The electronic VFD carriage  stop system is a complete integrated control system which replace the stock machine control board, wiring, switch gear, etc. so it is not an add on device for machines with VFDs.

Most of the imported lathes for the US as far as I am aware use imperial lead screws, as such the threading  dials do not work for metric and visa versa if it is a metric pitch. There are some lower priced lathes and mills that do use a metric pitch screw thread that is a close approximation to imperial thread pitch. Had that on my last mill and made it pretty much useless when using the dials, so had to install a DRO.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm-1440gt-change-gear-thread-pitch-calculator.60066/
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/metric-thread-pitch-on-pm1340-lathe.59976/#post-494663


----------



## mikey (Jan 24, 2018)

Chipper5783 said:


> Consider a machine with a metric lead screw.  Yes, you can cut metric threads on a machine with an imperial lead screw - but it is a bit of a work around (you can't disingage the halfnut until you are finished).





ttabbal said:


> I forgot about the half-nut thing when threading for metric. That would be somewhat annoying. I think I would probably just buy some nice taps and dies for at least the smaller threads.
> 
> I haven't seen any tools small enough to single-point an M3 internal thread anyway... Hey Mikey, want to grind us one?



Not being contentious because it is common wisdom that you cannot disengage the half nuts when cutting metric threads on an Imperial lathe ... except that you can. Conrad Hoffman (smart guy!) described the technique here: http://conradhoffman.com/metricthreading.htm, and Tom at Ox Tools did a video on it:






Most of the threads we cut in this country will be Imperial with some metric thrown in. Some lathes, like my Emco Super 11, have a thread dial indicator that does both. In my opinion, having Imperial leadscrews in the US is a good idea because we tend to think in Imperial, work in Imperial increments and many of the things we need to fit will be Imperial. I cut a lot of metric threads too and do not find it difficult to change gears if my QCGB doesn't have what I need; I have a complete set of change gears for the lathe. I work on sportbikes, too, so I understand the need for metric threading but I also work on Imperial stuff most of the time and prefer to work on an Imperial lathe.

And just for the record, internal threading in tiny holes is best done with a good carbide bar from Micro 100. Nice try though, @ttabbal!


----------



## Robert LaLonde (Jan 24, 2018)

You can at a later date buy better quality chucks, and assuming your spindle nose was ground in place, just swap them on and sell your older chucks.  You can easily swap between chucks with a D1-X spindle.  You can add various styles of collet chucks if you want to consistently mount and remount work pieces in those size ranges.  You can get a run true or other chuck and mount it up.  It really all depends on what you are going to do.  If all you ever plan to do is single setup fully subtractive turing you might only ever use a 3 jaw.  If you need to be able to turn concentric to an existing surface you will need some other chuck.  4jaw/collet/run-tru/etc.  If you need to setup, concentric and swap ends a 4 jaw will work.  If you need to do it fast then a run tru or a collet chuck might work better.


----------



## synfinatic (Jan 24, 2018)

So earlier 1127's had a spindle like the 1030, but looks like new models have the D1-4 it seems.    But honestly, other then the threading I was shying away from the 1127 since for a few hundred more you can get a many more gearbox options in the 1228 which seems like a huge win in terms of usability.  But the 1228 seems to be missing some basic features that you see included with other machines (4 jaw check, faceplate) or is extra (QCTP).   The 1236 is +400lbs heavier then anything else and basically requires only two possible change gear settings for any metric thread.  Funny how easy it is to say "for a few dollars more..." and end up going $1k. . Does either the 1127 or 1228 deserve a serious second look?  Both have variable spindles which seems really nice.

I guess one disadvantage of going with an imperial lathe is that the metric markings on the 1236 dials is going to have the same issue as the metric lead screws with imperial markings- never going to be quite right.   Am I making a bad decision to not go with DRO on a lathe since I'll be working significantly with metric?  Probably would end up adding that on myself via eBay... the QMT option seems kinda spendy for a 2 axis deal unless I'm missing something obvious?  Guess I should probably ask Matt about that too.  As long as I'm not running coolant, the optical/glass ones would seem to be fine.  Just haven't been able to find any decent fully metric lathe.  They all seem low end/smaller machines with metric lead screws with imperial markings on the dials.

mksj, that electric stop looks pretty awesome.   Another hobby of mine is designing electronics (PCB design/etc) and so I bet I could do something similar.  The Ox Tools video showing an alternative method makes everything look really easy, but I guess it all depends on how good your hand/eye coordination is.

Thanks everyone for the info and advice!


----------



## ttabbal (Jan 24, 2018)

Yup, you can "just a little more money" into some serious iron.  

I had to stop as I had a hard limit, that I pushed just a little with shipping cost added. I think it will be a great setup. There's always something better. Just like computers. 

I started thinking about getting a mini-lathe. Then the 1030, then pushed to the 1127. If I had the budget, I would actually love the 1236, but I really think the 1127 is more machine than I need for a long time. I may well be eating those words later, but you never know... 

At the end of the day, the only person who can decide what is good enough for you, is you.


----------



## Chipper5783 (Jan 24, 2018)

synfinatic said:


> I guess one disadvantage of going with an imperial lathe is that the metric markings on the 1236 dials is going to have the same issue as the metric lead screws with imperial markings- never going to be quite right.   Am I making a bad decision to not go with DRO on a lathe since I'll be working significantly with metric?  Probably would end up adding that on myself via eBay... the QMT option seems kinda spendy for a 2 axis deal unless I'm missing something obvious?  Guess I should probably ask Matt about that too.  As long as I'm not running coolant, the optical/glass ones would seem to be fine.  Just haven't been able to find any decent fully metric lathe.  They all seem low end/smaller machines with metric lead screws with imperial markings on the dials.



It is true, the dual dials are not very useful (IMO) - my larger lathe has dual scales.  If the cross slide screw is Imperial (say 10 tpi - which is pretty common) then 1 turn is 0.200" off the diameter - which is 5.08mm off the diameter - and that is a major pain to keep track of.  Same idea if the cross slide screw is metric - there will be some odd value of inches per revolution.

Yes, a DRO pretty much solves that.  I suspect there are fancy little handwheel gearing arrangements to shift between inch and metric advance - but not on my lathe which has the dual scales.  The scale needs to match the style of screw that it is associated with (i.e. a metric dial with a metric screw).  IMO there is no benefit to having dual scales.


----------



## NortonDommi (Jan 25, 2018)

I have a Chinese V356 = 14 x 40. D1-5 chuck which is a bit of an odd ball. Variable speed low 40 -400, high 220 - 2000 and could only buy metric which is a bummer as I do a lot of Imperial stuff. no biggie but does mean I have to swap a gear. Needed to make a few extra change gears but I do run into some obscure threads. Variable speed, I'm in love with it, being able to alter speed if chatter starts on a hard spot or slow down when approaching the end of a thread or fast reverse with half-nut engaged. Like everybody else says get the biggest you can especially the biggest spindle bore.
*ttabbal,
*  I posted this elsewhere and copped some flak from a couple of people because you need to work out a lathes gearbox ratios but it is a program I use almost daily so can recommend. It is non-specific. Bit of a fiddle to save your input, find the file and rename it but worth it.


----------



## ttabbal (Jan 25, 2018)

Thanks for the program. I'll check it out. I know I'll need gearbox ratios and such if I want to calculate threading for unknown settings, that's just part of the deal. I started another thread to see if anyone else already has that info out there, nothing yet, but it's only been a day. I can figure it out when I get the machine if needed, though I'll email PM next week if I don't hear anything. They might know the details without me having to count turns.


----------



## NortonDommi (Jan 25, 2018)

Hope you like it. You can work out the ratios from the info stated on the  thread plate. Find the thread listed that is the same as the leadscrew and work the ratios from there. Remember to factor the initial ratio from the spindle. Pretty easy once started. I wrote all down on a piece of paper and saved as a TXT file on a USB along with the finished saved file which came in handy when I had a computer meltdown.


----------



## synfinatic (Jan 26, 2018)

So I pinged QMT via email and learned a few things:

1. The 1127 does all the threads I care about.
2. Still not 100% sure on the metric threading capability of the 1228.  It's probably just fine like the 1127 though.
3. There's a step up in quality from the 1030 and 1127+.  But spindle run-out is going to be pretty much the same until...
4. There's another step up in quality from the 1228 and 1236.  Runout on the 1236 is about half that of the 1228, 1127, etc.  That said all of them seem plenty good for my needs right now.  

Oh, I realized why the 2-axis DRO QMT sells is priced higher then eBay/Amazon:
1. Slimmer scale for the cross slide
2. Higher resolution scale for the cross slide
3. Includes the necessary mounting brackets, rather then having to fabricate my own.

Doesn't seem as over priced after all.


----------

