# Power tool vs machine tool



## Koi (Jun 17, 2019)

*This is a question I've been asking myself since the day I got a power tool .Is a power tool a good substitute of a machine tool like a die grinder with carbide burr can I use it to do free hand milling(sounds stupid tho)and how precise can I  get  assuming I have the best  money can buy.I even tried it myself but found it  to be a tough work.*


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## JimDawson (Jun 17, 2019)

If you are skilled enough and have enough time, then I would guess that a power tool could be used in place of a machine tool.  I have seen some beautiful work done by hand, but I'm not capable of doing it.


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## matthewsx (Jun 17, 2019)

My dad wanted a Bridgeport but never got one, he used files and a disk sander to build his airplane.

So yes, it can be done.

Machine tools provide speed, repeatability and greater precision (generally).

Also, CNC can remove many of the inconsistencies involved with human operators. That’s why most production work is done that way now. However, it will benefit you greatly to develop the skill to do fine work with power tools and hand tools.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 17, 2019)

An die grinder might be "better" in the sense that you can use it on more things (not just whatever can be clamped to the mill table), but following that logic a file is better still.

If all you have is a die grinder, and a machine tool is too expensive or otherwise burdensome, then you can make a mount for the die grinder and a mount for your workpiece, make sure one of them is on a sliding bearing (or better yet, an X-Y table), and you've got yourself a reasonable substitute for a machine tool.


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## Cadillac (Jun 17, 2019)

Just look at log carver. Takes a stump and carves out some beautiful piece with a CHAINSAW, some burrs on a grinder and maybe some sandpaper. I know it’s wood but it can be done with metal too. Mastering the capabilities of each tool is part of the battle. The mind is the limiting factor.


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## matthewsx (Jun 17, 2019)

I used to do quite a bit of work with die grinders porting cylinder heads for racing kart engines. It was the only practical tool for that job and I still use it, along with carbide burs for the occasional job.

However, I did have to send out the heads to be surfaced on a mill....

John


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## RobertHaas (Jun 17, 2019)

I took machine shop back in the 1970's in high school.

We had to turn in a block of steel 2" square that we made from a round bar. The only tool we were allowed to use was a Hack saw, a file, a caliper and machinists square. Had to get it to withing .005" on all dims to get an A had to get to within .015" to pass. It took me 2 weeks to get that passing grade and nope, it was not an A


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## Cooter Brown (Jun 17, 2019)

The first machine tools were made with nothing but files, so if you wanted to finish it bad enough the only thing stopping you would be yourself....


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## mikey (Jun 17, 2019)

Koi, buy a mill.


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## markba633csi (Jun 17, 2019)

Koi: some types of work are obviously impossible to do by hand, however many jobs are possible.  There is a point at which you need an actual machine tool such as a lathe or milling machine.  Really depends on what you need to accomplish, how often, how quickly and to what degree of precision
Mark


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## Koi (Jun 17, 2019)

mikey said:


> Koi, buy a mill.


I'm going too but right know this is all I have die grinder a machine box(files ,carbide tipped chisel,small swivel vise , indicator block that I filed with the aid of a magnifier.)I'm gonna get a beefier version of the round column mill showed you on the last thread


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## Koi (Jun 17, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Koi: some types of work are obviously impossible to do by hand, however many jobs are possible.  There is a point at which you need an actual machine tool such as a lathe or milling machine.  Really depends on what you need to accomplish, how often, how quickly and to what degree of precision
> Mark


How about a die grinder for fast fast material removal and finish it if with hand tools like a file or sandpaper


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## markba633csi (Jun 17, 2019)

Yes that is commonly done, but there is a practical limit on the amount of material removed- and the die grinder will drive you crazy with the noise and vibration
Large flat areas are not easily achieved by hand in a short time


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## RYAN S (Jun 17, 2019)

I can’t remember where, but I read about the requirement to enter into a machinist school in Europe around the turn of the century was making a perfect sphere with only a file.


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## MontanaLon (Jun 17, 2019)

RobertHaas said:


> I took machine shop back in the 1970's in high school.
> 
> We had to turn in a block of steel 2" square that we made from a round bar. The only tool we were allowed to use was a Hack saw, a file, a caliper and machinists square. Had to get it to withing .005" on all dims to get an A had to get to within .015" to pass. It took me 2 weeks to get that passing grade and nope, it was not an A


Sounds like our teachers went to the same school. We didn't get to touch a machine until we could create a cube. Was where I first saw a surface plate and test indicator. We didn't get to use them, they were used in the grading.

Actually, the instructor was a Bob Haas. Was a lifetime and a coast away though.


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## Mitch Alsup (Jun 17, 2019)

A machine tool has at least one axis where a <cutting> tool can be moved linearly with great precision.


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## Superburban (Jun 17, 2019)

A skilled person and a hand file, can make better parts then many un skilled workers with a machine tool. I do not use the die grinder near as much as I did 30 years ago, but still consider it just another tool in my arsenal. I still do lots of work with a handfile, while sitting on the deck with the wife, watching the world go by. No timelines in my world.

This shows how little and simple machines can be used to make things. Also shows why gun confiscation will not get every gun off the streets. Back in High school metal shop, I made a simple 22LR pen gun, with a pull and let go firing system. Now days, a kid would be in big trouble for even thinking about it.


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## markba633csi (Jun 17, 2019)

A perfect sphere with a file? That's like having to learn calculus to work in a grocery store
What are they making in the video- is that the Akbar Saturday night special?
Just shows what one can do when he puts his beard to it


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## Cooter Brown (Jun 17, 2019)

I hate VICE but this is a good one....


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

RYAN S said:


> I can’t remember where, but I read about the requirement to enter into a machinist school in Europe around the turn of the century was making a perfect sphere with only a file.


That's insane


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> I hate VICE but this is a good one....


I've seen it before.Don't forget gun making in the Philippine.


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## C-Bag (Jun 18, 2019)

There are tons of examples of people making incredible things with simple hand tools. One of my favorites on this site is 
Here 

Read through how the whole shaper was made without powered machines, all hand tools.


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

Superburban said:


> A skilled person and a hand file, can make better parts then many un skilled workers with a machine tool. I do not use the die grinder near as much as I did 30 years ago, but still consider it just another tool in my arsenal. I still do lots of work with a handfile, while sitting on the deck with the wife, watching the world go by. No timelines in my world.
> 
> This shows how little and simple machines can be used to make things. Also shows why gun confiscation will not get every gun off the streets. Back in High school metal shop, I made a simple 22LR pen gun, with a pull and let go firing system. Now days, a kid would be in big trouble for even thinking about it.


With all due respect how do i put a square slot in a center of a metal block.You can't possibly file it  do you.


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## PHPaul (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> With all due respect how do i put a square slot in a center of a metal block.You can't possibly file it  do you.



Drill an undersized round hole and then file it square.  

Makes my arthritis flare up just thinking about it...


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## C-Bag (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> With all due respect how do i put a square slot in a center of a metal block.You can't possibly file it  do you.


Many times when doing fab work out in the field I've had to make slots for adjustment in steel plate. Usually I'd drill the ends of the slot and as many hole in between as I could manage. Then use my trusty die grinder connect the holes to make a slot. I have some Exacto jeweler files or a square file if I have to square the ends. Very time consuming and rarely ever came out like a mill but it got the job done. Later on when we had plasma torch with us I made several jigs I could clamp in place and cut a pretty nice square slot then clean it up with a file. But that's not the same


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## C-Bag (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> *This is a question I've been asking myself since the day I got a power tool .Is a power tool a good substitute of a machine tool like a die grinder with carbide burr can I use it to do free hand milling(sounds stupid tho)and how precise can I  get  assuming I have the best  money can buy.I even tried it myself but found it  to be a tough work.*


The problem for me with the die grinder was controlling it. I was doing a lot of precise work with it and after decades of using it freehand decided it was time to change it up. So I made a bench mount with the small table so I could control the work, not the die grinder. It works so much better I wish I'd done it years ago.


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 18, 2019)

When I stared as an apprentice Fitter/ turner/ toolmaker we were given a block of steel 1 1/8th " square, an engineers square, a 1" micrometer and a couple of files We had to make it 1.000" + - 0.002
'  on all sides and square. most of us took about 3 shots at it and about two weeks. LAter on we learned how to operate lathes, mills, jig borers, surface grinders, pantographs, etc. we also learned how to use a die grinder, they became one of my favorite tools, I still use one today.


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## RobertHaas (Jun 18, 2019)

My old shop teacher was a terrible machinists. However he did teach me how to read a vernier scale, to understand the principles of cutting and tool shapes. Mostly he demonstrated that machines are only as accurate as the operators and to prove it he cut and filed a piece of 1/4" rod to a desired length to an accuracy of tenth of a thou. He did it in under 3 minutes all the while talking us through the process.  Then challenged the class to repeat it in the remaining 15 minutes of class.  None of us pulled it off. He did it with chop saw and a lapping stone.


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## RJSakowski (Jun 18, 2019)

Whenever this discussion comes up, I think of Roy Underhill, the Woodwright's Shop, and Norm Abram, the New Yankee Workshop.  Roy used tools that had been used in the 17th century and earlier while Norm always had the latest and greatest power tools.  Both did great work in their own way.

The modern day machinists and engineers trace their origins to blacksmiths, the machinists/engineers of their time.  There have been many intricate and exquisite mechanisms made without the benefit of modern machine tools da5ting as far back as the Middle Ages.  In those days, to make a lock and key, a blacksmith would first make a key and then the lock to match the key.  Essentially using one part as a gage for making a mating part.  A useful technique, even now.

What machine tools have done for us is to allow us to efficiently make identical  and interchangeable parts because the metrology is built into the machine itself. Hand working a part  to match another part can be done but what would take minutes with a machine tool would take jours or days by hand.  I recall cutting a keyway in an 1-1/2" shaft by hand, using a cold chisel, before I had a mill.  The hand work took the better part of a day to accomplish and the results, although functional, were less than perfect.  The mill would have completed the task in a matter of minutes.

I get satisfaction from hand work but the thought of making a complex part with all features matching the design to within a few thousandths by hand sends a cold shiver down my spine.


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## francist (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> With all due respect how do i put a square slot in a center of a metal block.You can't possibly file it do you.







All by file, no mill at the time. They're reproduction parts for mortise locks.

-frank


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## Superburban (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> With all due respect how do i put a square slot in a center of a metal block.You can't possibly file it  do you.


How is it done in most home shops today? You cannot use a mill or a lathe to easily do sharp corners, so that leaves a broach, or file. Maybe a shaper, or slotter attachment, but they are not in most home shops.  Even with all the tools in my shop, I still do many hours with a file. Its something I can do while chatting with the wife, enjoying a nice sunset.


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## Cooter Brown (Jun 18, 2019)

Have you guys never seen any of Clickspring's videos? He makes everything by hand..... He makes files by hand so he can build gears and clocks....lol


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

francist said:


> View attachment 296797
> View attachment 296798
> 
> 
> ...


Well that is possible but what I really meant was putting a slot in a piece of metal in the center and there's no hole on the other side.


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## Cooter Brown (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> Well that is possible but what I really meant was putting a slot in a piece of metal in the center and there's no hole on the other side.



I would use a hammer and a set of cold chisels.... and a file to clean it up....


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## francist (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> Well that is possible but what I really meant was putting a slot in a piece of metal in the center and there's no hole on the other side.



Ah, a blind hole. Sorry, I misunderstood the description. That's certainly more challenging alright, I think if I had to do one I might consider cutting a through hole first, then blocking the one side. That might not be practical for your application though.

-frank


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> I would use a hammer and a set of cold chisels.... and a file to clean it up....


My hands be like leave us alone.


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

Downunder Bob said:


> When I stared as an apprentice Fitter/ turner/ toolmaker we were given a block of steel 1 1/8th " square, an engineers square, a 1" micrometer and a couple of files We had to make it 1.000" + - 0.002
> '  on all sides and square. most of us took about 3 shots at it and about two weeks. LAter on we learned how to operate lathes, mills, jig borers, surface grinders, pantographs, etc. we also learned how to use a die grinder, they became one of my favorite tools, I still use one today.


For what purpose.


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> Whenever this discussion comes up, I think of Roy Underhill, the Woodwright's Shop, and Norm Abram, the New Yankee Workshop.  Roy used tools that had been used in the 17th century and earlier while Norm always had the latest and greatest power tools.  Both did great work in their own way.
> 
> The modern day machinists and engineers trace their origins to blacksmiths, the machinists/engineers of their time.  There have been many intricate and exquisite mechanisms made without the benefit of modern machine tools da5ting as far back as the Middle Ages.  In those days, to make a lock and key, a blacksmith would first make a key and then the lock to match the key.  Essentially using one part as a gage for making a mating part.  A useful technique, even now.
> 
> ...


May I know the type of cold chisel you are using .I'm having problem with mine .Every time when I'm trying to chisel a slot in a piece of steel,it will just make incosistent cut .


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## Superburban (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> Well that is possible but what I really meant was putting a slot in a piece of metal in the center and there's no hole on the other side.


So how would you do that with a lathe/mill/ what ever.  I have done similar with small files to get into the bottom corners, but it takes lots of work.


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## pstemari (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> ...I'm gonna get a beefier version of the round column mill ...



Do yourself a favor and stay away from the round column mill/drills. They are a really bad design, with any z move of the head losing position in x/y.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## pstemari (Jun 18, 2019)

Superburban said:


> So how would you do that with a lathe/mill/ what ever....



Get rid of the bulk of the material with a drill. Next, mill out a pocket. Using progressively smaller end mills, mill the corners as close as you can to square. Then finish up with a broach or cold chisel.

A slightly easier alternative is to use "mouse ears" on the corners to avoid the need for long thin end mills and do everything under power. Using a drill slightly bigger in diameter than the smallest endmill you have that can reach the bottom, drill a hole just inside each corner that covers the actual sharp corner. Then drill and mill the pocket as above. The mouse ears give clearance on the corners to allow a perfectly sharp-cornered plug to fit in the pocket.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

pstemari said:


> Do yourself a favor and stay away from the round column mill/drills. They are a really bad design, with any z move of the head losing position in x/y.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I know round column are bad at maintaining their squareness  though it can be readjusted.But can you tell me more about how worse they are .I know mill drill can't take heavy cut,that's okay I can   go with the light cuts and working around it's limitations as long I can get the work done with decent precision.


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## Koi (Jun 18, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> Have you guys never seen any of Clickspring's videos? He makes everything by hand..... He makes files by hand so he can build gears and clocks....lol


Seen it before what an incredible guy.


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## RJSakowski (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> May I know the type of cold chisel you are using .I'm having problem with mine .Every time when I'm trying to chisel a slot in a piece of steel,it will just make incosistent cut .


I made my own from a pulley tap shank.  It was a 1/4" wide.  Rather than the conventional shape, I used a double ogive profile sharpened to a keen edge.  You have to anneal the struck end of HSS by heating to a bright red but it held up to blows with a three lb. hammer.

Nontheless is was difficult work


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## RJSakowski (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> Well that is possible but what I really meant was putting a slot in a piece of metal in the center and there's no hole on the other side.


The part shown would be difficult to make even with machine tools if you want straight, flat, and square sides.  Add a flat bottom and it is nearly impossible.  The best way would be by sinker EDM.  A graphite electrode would gradually burn a square hole to the required depth.  Another approach would be by 3D printing with sintered metal. In either case, the cost of the equipment is huge.  

Regarding manually making the hole, I have never seen a file with a truly sharp edge.  Also, files don't work well in blind holes.  Personally, I would modify the design to make the part more machining friendly.


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## Superburban (Jun 18, 2019)

Koi said:


> I know round column are bad at maintaining their squareness  though it can be readjusted.But can you tell me more about how worse they are .I know mill drill can't take heavy cut,that's okay I can   go with the light cuts and working around it's limitations as long I can get the work done with decent precision.


They do not loose squareness, or tram as it is mostly known as. They will loose your position, So if you drill a hole, then need to lower the head to tap the hole, that center on the hole is gone, and you will need to refind the center of the hole. A pain in the rear yes, but not the hassle as having to tram the head as many will make you believe. Think of it more akin to removing your workpiece from the vise, and having to reaquire a position on the workpiece.

For small projects, I still use my Rungfoo, its easier to setup and do small jobs, then my Van Norman.


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## C-Bag (Jun 18, 2019)

pstemari said:


> Do yourself a favor and stay away from the round column mill/drills. They are a really bad design, with any z move of the head losing position in x/y.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


This is an often repeated meme but another saying I like is a good carpenter doesn't blame his tools. The mill/drill can be a challenge but those of us who have them and use them have learned how to get around their shortcomings. There are also some amazing projects done here like this Ford 300 inline 6 model  Here that was made from scratch and all the milling was done on a mill/drill. Granted this member is a master machinist but he didn't seem to have a problem with his tools.


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## mikey (Jun 18, 2019)

pstemari said:


> Do yourself a favor and stay away from the round column mill/drills. They are a really bad design, with any z move of the head losing position in x/y.



No offense, pstemari, but have you ever actually used a round column mill? Ever see one in real life? This is a fairly substantial benchtop mill with 5" of quill travel that eliminates the need to move the head for most jobs. It is not the ideal design, I agree, but having lived with it for about 5 years now, I think it is a very capable machine and worthy of consideration for a hobby shop.


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## Guv (Jun 19, 2019)

Superburban said:


> A skilled person and a hand file, can make better parts then many un skilled workers with a machine tool. I do not use the die grinder near as much as I did 30 years ago, but still consider it just another tool in my arsenal. I still do lots of work with a handfile, while sitting on the deck with the wife, watching the world go by. No timelines in my world.
> 
> This shows how little and simple machines can be used to make things. Also shows why gun confiscation will not get every gun off the streets. Back in High school metal shop, I made a simple 22LR pen gun, with a pull and let go firing system. Now days, a kid would be in big trouble for even thinking about it.





MontanaLon said:


> Sounds like our teachers went to the same school. We didn't get to touch a machine until we could create a cube. Was where I first saw a surface plate and test indicator. We didn't get to use them, they were used in the grading.
> 
> Actually, the instructor was a Bob Haas. Was a lifetime and a coast away though.


In South Africa I went to a technical school and went through the same process of filing a cube so it appears that all the teachers went to the same school.lol. In later years I worked in an engineering firm when a student from a nearby high school brought in a cube and asked me to square it for him on the surface grinder. I just laughed at him and send him on his way and told him to file it as I did many years ago. I am still pretty good with a file!


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## hman (Jun 19, 2019)

Koi said:


> Well that is possible but what I really meant was putting a slot in a piece of metal in the center and there's no hole on the other side.


If you can tolerate an uneven bottom, I'd suggest a rotary broach.








						Project - Rotary Broach
					

Started working on making a Rotary Broach. I will need to make some square holes in some other projects I will be working on. I spent some time watching videos and looking at other broaches to come up with this one. So I figured I'd better get started on the broach, in case I run into some...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				











						Home Built Rotary Broach
					

I ran across this site this morning and thought others would be interested. this looks easy to build and the cutters would be affordable to make also. the site is "Mikesworkshop" and has a lot of mods and interesting information. check out his homemade broach and watch the video at the bottom...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				











						Making A Rotary Broach, By Ulma Doctor
					

A couple years ago, I made a very quick and dirty rotary broach for a project i was working on in my normal job https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/shop-made-rotary-broach-down-and-dirty.48805/  it worked for the purpose it was intended, but i wanted to make an improved version.  the new...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Koi (Jun 19, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> My dad wanted a Bridgeport but never got one, he used files and a disk sander to build his airplane.
> 
> So yes, it can be done.
> 
> ...


Is it the plane you fly in it or you remote control it.


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## Koi (Jun 19, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> I hate VICE but this is a good one....


Why hate vice


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 19, 2019)

Koi said:


> For what purpose.


To teach you how important patience and perseverance are. Hated it at the time but many years later glad I did it.


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## Cooter Brown (Jun 19, 2019)

Koi said:


> Why hate vice



We are not allowed to talk politics on this website....


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## C-Bag (Jun 19, 2019)

I love the turn to the long lost idea of apprenticeships. I'd been holding off because the only guy I know who did a full on apprenticeship was my 80 something old neighbor down the street.  I was finally able to find him in his garage tinkering today so I took my phone for some pix and decided to corner him about some specifics. 

 He had shown me some of his apprentice/journeyman projects his brother had gifted him before he passed. His brother worked as an apprentice instructor at a huge electrical manufacturer in Germany for many years. Horst, my neighbor, was apprenticed in '52 at the age of 16 to a nautical instrument maker in the repair shop. He remembered his project was to square a piece of bronze which he said to do with a file was all but impossible. But he kept at it on the side when he wasn't in class two days a week or working on the shop floor doing stuff for the journeymen or cleaning up. They worked 6 days a week and he made 30 marks a month. The apprenticeship lasted 3 1/2yrs.  Because his father had a small shop with many machines and he was already familiar with all of them since he was 5yrs he was never forced to do the very basics. 

In that shop they made sextants, the different gauges, thermometers, barometers, and compasses. He stayed there 7yrs in total then went into the aircraft industry making instruments for transports. From there he came to Canada, then the US doing aircraft instruments then ended up in the power generation industry and ended up working for PG&E at the local nuclear powerplant down the road from us. He is very humble about his abilities and makes incredible models of ships and RC aircraft. He also got into clock and watch repair. 

Here's some of the apprentice/journeyman projects. The square was all made with files, a drill press and tap. The divider was filed too. Obviously the screw and knob were done with a lathe but notice the fit of the spring. It doesn't look soldered. The little vise is interesting in that it has a dovetail with gibs on the side. Notice too the dovetail is separate and dowel pinned and screwed into place. There is a clamp for clamping to a table. Notice the mortise joint which I think is silver soldered, but it's hard to tell. I know everything is a little rusty but they all have to be at least 60yrs old.


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## matthewsx (Jun 20, 2019)

Koi said:


> Is it the plane you fly in it or you remote control it.


It was a Mustang II, a two seat performance plane. Unfortunately when my parents divorced he sold it just prior to certification. I did however get to enjoy many hours with him at the controls of a Cesna 152.




Cheers,

John


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## RJSakowski (Jun 20, 2019)

My first mill was a round column mill.  Over the years, it has been used for a vast multitude of work ranging from large to very small.  The largest was facing a 100 lb. anvil and the smallest had features that were less than .01" in size.  I have a 12" RT on the table and have on occasion set it up for vertical operation so I could do four axis machining. 

The 5.3" quill travel can be challenging but with a little planning ahead and creative choice of tooling, it isn't a problem for virtually all work.  I use collets to hold drills so the tool offset is comparable to the end mills.  A tap wrench and tap used with a tap follower in most cases comes close to the drill length.  For larger drills, moving off the work to mount a tool is conveniently accomplished by virtue of the DRO..

In those instances where it is necessary to move the head, it is useful to realize that the y axis reference changes very little.  I would set up a reference edge in the x direction and re-reference to that edge after the move.  Where it isn't necessary to maintain .001" accuracy, a dowel pin mating with a hole before and after the move is sufficient.  If I had a piece of work mounted in my vise with the vise jaws parallel to the x axis, I would loosen the work and mate the pin to the hole and reclamp.


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## Koi (Jun 21, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> My first mill was a round column mill.  Over the years, it has been used for a vast multitude of work ranging from large to very small.  The largest was facing a 100 lb. anvil and the smallest had features that were less than .01" in size.  I have a 12" RT on the table and have on occasion set it up for vertical operation so I could do four axis machining.
> 
> The 5.3" quill travel can be challenging but with a little planning ahead and creative choice of tooling, it isn't a problem for virtually all work.  I use collets to hold drills so the tool offset is comparable to the end mills.  A tap wrench and tap used with a tap follower in most cases comes close to the drill length.  For larger drills, moving off the work to mount a tool is conveniently accomplished by virtue of the DRO..
> 
> In those instances where it is necessary to move the head, it is useful to realize that the y axis reference changes very little.  I would set up a reference edge in the x direction and re-reference to that edge after the move.  Where it isn't necessary to maintain .001" accuracy, a dowel pin mating with a hole before and after the move is sufficient.  If I had a piece of work mounted in my vise with the vise jaws parallel to the x axis, I would loosen the work and mate the pin to the hole and reclamp.


I'm getting a round column mill too , but I'm still saving up so for now I have only a files and a small table clamp swivel  Vise etc except for a hacksaw and I call it the portable machining center but I don't what I can make that is necessary for myself


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## Koi (Jun 21, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> It was a Mustang II, a two seat performance plane. Unfortunately when my parents divorced he sold it just prior to certification. I did however get to enjoy many hours with him at the controls of a Cesna 152.
> 
> View attachment 296902
> 
> ...


That is 匠 level.
Sorry to hear your parents divorced.
Btw can you tell me how he build it.


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## Koi (Jun 21, 2019)

You guys are just such a master in hand machining.
Hats off to y'all.


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## Koi (Jun 21, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> I made my own from a pulley tap shank.  It was a 1/4" wide.  Rather than the conventional shape, I used a double ogive profile sharpened to a keen edge.  You have to anneal the struck end of HSS by heating to a bright red but it held up to blows with a three lb. hammer.
> 
> Nontheless is was difficult work


How does the homemade chisel look like


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## Koi (Jun 21, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> The part shown would be difficult to make even with machine tools if you want straight, flat, and square sides.  Add a flat bottom and it is nearly impossible.  The best way would be by sinker EDM.  A graphite electrode would gradually burn a square hole to the required depth.  Another approach would be by 3D printing with sintered metal. In either case, the cost of the equipment is huge.
> 
> Regarding manually making the hole, I have never seen a file with a truly sharp edge.  Also, files don't work well in blind holes.  Personally, I would modify the design to make the part more machining friendly.


Edm noice but I think it's not practical for me .I think a mill is good enough if I can have one right now


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## Koi (Jun 21, 2019)

Koi said:


> Edm noice but I think it's not practical for me .I think a mill is good enough if I can have one right now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Koi (Jun 21, 2019)

Downunder Bob said:


> To teach you how important patience and perseverance are. Hated it at the time but many years later glad I did it.


You mean to profile the workpiece? At the same time training your patience and perseverance


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## RJSakowski (Jun 21, 2019)

An interesting question.  Normally EDM requires small precise movements.  However, I wonder if you couldn't use a small electrode manually.  The process would be somewhat like striking an arc with sick or TIG welding.  A TIG tungsten in an insulted holder could be used to peck away at the corners of your hole.  A chisel shaped electrode could be used as well to "carve" a flat wall. An interesting experiment I'll have to try.

Maybe some of the forum members who have dabbled with DIY EDM machines could comment?


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## matthewsx (Jun 21, 2019)

Koi said:


> That is 匠 level.
> Sorry to hear your parents divorced.
> Btw can you tell me how he build it.



He bought the plans, redesigned them and did all the welding and sheet metal work. 

We have a group here called the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA)



			EAA | Experimental Aircraft Association | Oshkosh, Wisconsin
		


That helps homebuilders with the process. 

John


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## matthewsx (Jun 21, 2019)

As for the part shown it seems like the best short run process would be to find an appropriate square tube and welding a plug in.


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## Koi (Jun 21, 2019)

One last question has anybody scrape before how long will it take to scrape to a depth of 1cm and 3 by 3 cm slot.Does it sound ridiculous


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## mikey (Jun 21, 2019)

Koi said:


> One last question has anybody scrape before how long will it take to scrape to a depth of 1cm and 3 by 3 cm slot.*Does it sound ridiculous*



*Yes.*

Koi, what are you making? What is it that you need to do?


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 21, 2019)

mikey said:


> Koi, what are you making? What is it that you need to do?



I think he's trying to make the most out of a limited budget and limited tool availability, and perhaps even expensive/unreliable power (I know all about this, the shop is not hooked up to my backup generator).

As for the scraping question, scraping is for adjusments in the area of 0.0001" (0.00254 mm, according to units). Better off drilling as many holes as you can i the area you want to remove, then file/chisel out the stuff between the holes. A cold chisel would suffice for this, though it may not be optimal.


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## Koi (Jun 22, 2019)

mikey said:


> *Yes.*
> 
> Koi, what are you making? What is it that you need to do?


I'm planning to make simple mechanism like  a gun firing mechanism not those that fires bullet just as a demo but prior to that I'm learning how to use hand tools but I'm stuck with Learning to slot/carve with a chisel.


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## Koi (Jun 22, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> I think he's trying to make the most out of a limited budget and limited tool availability, and perhaps even expensive/unreliable power (I know all about this, the shop is not hooked up to my backup generator).
> 
> As for the scraping question, scraping is for adjusments in the area of 0.0001" (0.00254 mm, according to units). Better off drilling as many holes as you can i the area you want to remove, then file/chisel out the stuff between the holes. A cold chisel would suffice for this, though it may not be optimal.


How a bout chiselling and then scrap to finish it off.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 22, 2019)

Koi said:


> How a bout chiselling and then scrap to finish it off.



Scraping is really only needed for a precision flat surface. It would be better to rough (drill, saw, etc), then chisel, then file, then polish (emery cloth, sandpaper, stones). If the surface still is not flat enough after all that, consider sraping. Though I'm not sure how effective it would be to scrape a blind hole.


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## ThinWoodsman (Jun 22, 2019)

A couple other things that occurred to me over coffee:

* check out riffler files and finishing stones - these are just examples, cheaper ones can be had
* a hand-powered shaper might interest you, though good luck finding one. Goodell-Pratt also made a hand-powered drill press

If you plan to do work with hand tools, your most important purchases up-front are going to be a vise and a grinder. Build a bench or pedestal stand for the vise so it is at proper filing height (roughly, vise jaws at elbow level). If you have these already, you can start making your own hand tools. A cold chisel could be ground to a different shape, though you won't be able to get a cape chisel out of it without some forge work. A broaching-style tool could probably be made, roughly the size of the blind hole with one edge sharpened, and pounded into the hole with a hammer to form/smooth the sides of the hole. There's a lot to experiment with, just make sure you are grinding hardened tools and that they have the proper edge geometry for what you are trying to do.


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## Koi (Jun 24, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> A couple other things that occurred to me over coffee:
> 
> * check out riffler files and finishing stones - these are just examples, cheaper ones can be had
> * a hand-powered shaper might interest you, though good luck finding one. Goodell-Pratt also made a hand-powered drill press
> ...


How do you use a riffler file for rapid material removal on metal


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## Koi (Jun 24, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> My first mill was a round column mill.  Over the years, it has been used for a vast multitude of work ranging from large to very small.  The largest was facing a 100 lb. anvil and the smallest had features that were less than .01" in size.  I have a 12" RT on the table and have on occasion set it up for vertical operation so I could do four axis machining.
> 
> The 5.3" quill travel can be challenging but with a little planning ahead and creative choice of tooling, it isn't a problem for virtually all work.  I use collets to hold drills so the tool offset is comparable to the end mills.  A tap wrench and tap used with a tap follower in most cases comes close to the drill length.  For larger drills, moving off the work to mount a tool is conveniently accomplished by virtue of the DRO..
> 
> In those instances where it is necessary to move the head, it is useful to realize that the y axis reference changes very little.  I would set up a reference edge in the x direction and re-reference to that edge after the move.  Where it isn't necessary to maintain .001" accuracy, a dowel pin mating with a hole before and after the move is sufficient.  If I had a piece of work mounted in my vise with the vise jaws parallel to the x axis, I would loosen the work and mate the pin to the hole and reclamp.


What's the problem with the 5'3 quill.


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## RJSakowski (Jun 24, 2019)

Koi said:


> What's the problem with the 5'3 quill.


When you are working on a part with different elevations and using tools with different length, you can eat up the 5.3" of quill travel quickly. I tend to use collets for holding both drills and end mills so I don't see too great a difference there. Having a DRO is a big advantage because you can move off the work zone to change a tool and accurately return.  You still have to plan out your work flow though.


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## Koi (Sep 13, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> An die grinder might be "better" in the sense that you can use it on more things (not just whatever can be clamped to the mill table), but following that logic a file is better still.
> 
> If all you have is a die grinder, and a machine tool is too expensive or otherwise burdensome, then you can make a mount for the die grinder and a mount for your workpiece, make sure one of them is on a sliding bearing (or better yet, an X-Y table), and you've got yourself a reasonable substitute for a machine tool.


I could buy one used but I'm only 18 so yeah I'll stick with my hand tools


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## NortonDommi (Sep 13, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> However, I did have to send out the heads to be surfaced on a mill....


Surface plate and Wet & Dry?


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## brino (Sep 13, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> The problem for me with the die grinder was controlling it. I was doing a lot of precise work with it and after decades of using it freehand decided it was time to change it up. So I made a bench mount with the small table so I could control the work, not the die grinder. It works so much better I wish I'd done it years ago.



I am SOOO stealing that idea!
Thanks for posting it.
-brino


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## brino (Sep 13, 2019)

Koi said:


> Can edm be manually controlled? Btw






RJSakowski said:


> An interesting question. Normally EDM requires small precise movements. However, I wonder if you couldn't use a small electrode manually. The process would be somewhat like striking an arc with sick or TIG welding. A TIG tungsten in an insulted holder could be used to peck away at the corners of your hole. A chisel shaped electrode could be used as well to "carve" a flat wall. An interesting experiment I'll have to try.
> 
> Maybe some of the forum members who have dabbled with DIY EDM machines could comment?




I have dabbled with home-brew EDM, here and here.

My take: The EDM metal removal rate is very small (at least with my DIY rigs).
You would need to hold your electrode very stable for many minutes to hours.
Plus with the deluge of water (or other fluid) your visibility would be greatly impaired.

If you were to produce the bulk of the hole by other means, you could still finish with EDM for better corners, but I think you'd still want the electrode held and fed by machine.

-brino


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## Koi (Sep 13, 2019)

brino said:


> I have dabbled with home-brew EDM, here and here.
> 
> My take: The EDM metal removal rate is very small (at least with my DIY rigs).
> You would need to hold your electrode very stable for many minutes to hours.
> ...


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## Koi (Oct 25, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> He bought the plans, redesigned them and did all the welding and sheet metal work.
> 
> We have a group here called the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA)
> 
> ...


Oh yeah what part of the plane was build with file and sander ?


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## matthewsx (Oct 25, 2019)

Koi said:


> Oh yeah what part of the plane was build with file and sander ?


My dad used files and a disk sander instead of the Bridgeport milling machine he would have rather had.


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## Winegrower (Oct 25, 2019)

You guys are funny!   I just got back from Florence, Italy, and saw the marble statue of DAVID.  I’m pretty sure Michelangelo did not have a die grinder or any CNC stuff.   It’s an incredible example of what hand tools can achieve...in the right hands.


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## C-Bag (Oct 25, 2019)

Winegrower said:


> You guys are funny!   I just got back from Florence, Italy, and saw the marble statue of DAVID.  I’m pretty sure Michelangelo did not have a die grinder or any CNC stuff.   It’s an incredible example of what hand tools can achieve...in the right hands.


+1


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## brino (Oct 25, 2019)

Winegrower said:


> It’s an incredible example of what hand tools can achieve...in the right hands.



So that's my problem;  I've been using my left hand! 
-brino


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## Koi (Jan 8, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> I love the turn to the long lost idea of apprenticeships. I'd been holding off because the only guy I know who did a full on apprenticeship was my 80 something old neighbor down the street.  I was finally able to find him in his garage tinkering today so I took my phone for some pix and decided to corner him about some specifics.
> 
> He had shown me some of his apprentice/journeyman projects his brother had gifted him before he passed. His brother worked as an apprentice instructor at a huge electrical manufacturer in Germany for many years. Horst, my neighbor, was apprenticed in '52 at the age of 16 to a nautical instrument maker in the repair shop. He remembered his project was to square a piece of bronze which he said to do with a file was all but impossible. But he kept at it on the side when he wasn't in class two days a week or working on the shop floor doing stuff for the journeymen or cleaning up. They worked 6 days a week and he made 30 marks a month. The apprenticeship lasted 3 1/2yrs.  Because his father had a small shop with many machines and he was already familiar with all of them since he was 5yrs he was never forced to do the very basics.
> 
> ...


How did he file the try square with the aid of another try square or using math equation?


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## C-Bag (Jan 8, 2020)

Koi said:


> How did he file the try square with the aid of another try square or using math equation?


I believe they had all the necessary metrology equipment like precision squares, micrometers, surface plates etc. They made precision equipment for ship navigation so they had to have all that equipment. They were only limited in the tools they could make the pieces with and couldn't use shaper, mill or lathe. Only hacksaw, files, drill press and sandpaper.


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## NortonDommi (Jan 8, 2020)

Three really common 1st year apprentice tests were make a square from 3/8" plate, a 1" cube and a drill grinding guide, The only tolls allowed are a pedestal drill, scribe, scale, 45 degree set square, hacksaw, files and a vise .


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## Koi (Jun 19, 2020)

Ive seen people using die grinder  like a scraper but for hardened ways or high carbon steel .


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## Buffalo21 (Jun 19, 2020)

I did a job in a palm oil plant in Kuantan Malaysia, I left he facility at about 5 pm, because we needed a 4” x 6” NPT pipe nipple, that had to be flown in from KL, and would be there mid afternoon the next day. At 7 am the next morning, I arrived to find a 4” x 6” nipple, that 2 of the workers had laid out and hand cut the threads with triangular files. I have no idea how long it took them, or how many try’s it took, but it screw into the fittings and was installed, and when I left the facility 2 months later, it was still in the piping. Amazing things can be done with hand tools, that people of my ilk would never attempt on my own.


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## Downunder Bob (Jun 19, 2020)

The first threads in history must have been cut by hand.


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