# Just Ordered Pm-727m, What Do I Need



## kf4zht (Nov 9, 2015)

Ordered a PM-727M and the starter tooling pack at lunch today, sounds like they are in stock and should be here this week or next. I don't have a driveway so liftgate delivery doesnt make sense. Going to meet them at the shipping terminal and have it loaded in my truck. Need to modify my engine hoist so I can mount it on the tractor. Between the tommy gate and that I should be able to pick it up off the truck and get it in the door. Once its in there shouldn't be an issue getting it into position. 

Been trying to make a list of what I need to get it setup and some basic tools, could use some advice on what I am missing and where to get stuff. 

So Far:
Lifting straps - HF
Milling Vise - Already ordered
Collets - Already ordered
DTI - Looking at CDCO or Shars right now
DTI Mount - CDCO or shars
Dial Indicators - already have 3
Mag bases - Already have 2
End Mills - I have some smaller ones (1/8-1/4), should I get a cheap set of bigger ones or only a few select sizes of good ones?
123 blocks - May wait for BF sales
Parallels - ?
Boring Head - I have a set of boring bars I got cheap a while back, is a boring head used that often or should I wait for a project that needs one?

What else am I missing?


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## wrmiller (Nov 9, 2015)

I have found that with regard to the end mills that I have had better results with buying the better quality ones as opposed to the cheap ones, so for my PM25 I typically keep a few 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, and maybe one 1/2 rougher. The smaller ones I can oftentimes find 4 or 5-packs on Ebay at a decent price.


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## Dman1114 (Nov 9, 2015)

I recommend scouring craigslist ....  

I got all of mine from a 2 ads....

I have tool box drawer full of end mills of all sorts ...


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## kf4zht (Nov 9, 2015)

The smaller ones I have are all higher end axtrax and similar. They were bought for a mini cnc mill where the machine didn't have enough HP to overcome any dullness. 

I've been watching craigslist for years. Atlanta is a really bad town for any types of machinest equipment in general. There was never any serious industry here, just a town of middle management. As a result you don't have the retired workers and discount old machines you get elsewhere. 

Did find out that enco has 25% off and free shipping today only, about to hit them up. $30 for a Chinese dti vs 75 on sale for a mity make an easier choice

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk


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## Trent.R (Nov 9, 2015)

Cheape end mills are a good way to start, if this is your fist adventure in machining. Then you can step up to higher quality as you gain experiance. It's better to break a $7 hss end mill then a $35 carbide end mill. Congrats in the new mill by the way.


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## wrmiller (Nov 9, 2015)

How do you break an end mill? Just curious, as I've never done that.


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## kf4zht (Nov 9, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> How do you break an end mill? Just curious, as I've never done that.



1/8" or so endmill + CNC controlling motion + chips not clearing fast enough does it before you can even blink. CNC is great for precision and speed, but the machine has no feel, no ears, it just goes.


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## wrmiller (Nov 9, 2015)

After I asked that I figured you were talking about CNC. I've seen my friends CNC eat a few end mills.


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## compsurge (Nov 10, 2015)

What you really need is an extremely slow internet connection to keep you from spending all your money on tooling. Hey, you asked.. 

If you didn't get the 1-2-3 blocks from Enco with the sale (it is seemingly still valid on their website as of this morning), Amazon is typically about the same price. The parallels on Amazon are cheap and good - plenty good for the hobby shop. 

I prefer to get good endmills having used some quality ones and the cheap Grizzly set. Night and day difference in the grind and performance.


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## maker of things (Nov 10, 2015)

I personally dislike sets, I would get a couple cheapies to screw up then buy nicer ones to replace them.  Depending on what you are milling a few sizes will probably be the ones you use 90% of the time.  I have 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 in end mill holders both for convenience and I don't have to worry about the endmills falling out when I loosen the drawbar (I'm a high functioning noob). 

What about a drill chuck?


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## GA Gyro (Nov 10, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> How do you break an end mill? Just curious, as I've never done that.



Irrational Exuberance...
How else...


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## Muskt (Nov 10, 2015)

I chipped the tip of a new one yesterday.  Stupid on my part.
I had it installed in an ER-32 collet and when I released the nut, my finger wasn't quite touching it (my normal practice with drills & mills) to prevent them from dropping out.  IT DID (drop)!!!--right on to the vise.  Small chip on one flute.  Unpure words followed--didn't do any good, chip was still there.
Stuff Happens, I guess.

Jerry in Delaware


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## lpeedin (Nov 10, 2015)

As an owner of the 727 myself, the most important thing I did was to add a DRO.  I don't have the cash for a high dollar set up so I went with the Igaging scales.  I have only installed them on the X and Y so far, as there is a quill mounted DRO included on the machine.  So, for about $90, I have mine all set up.  You will need to fab up some of the installation hardware, but that is what makes it so fun and rewarding when you start cranking those dials without having to count revolutions!!  

I think you have a pretty good handle on the short term needs.  Definitely get a set of parallels.  You will need those pretty often, particularly when dealing with smaller parts.  One thing I have found invaluable is a machinist square.  They are pretty cheap and come in real handy when putting things in the vise that don't have square ends to sit on the ways of the vise.  

As far as end mills, messing up a few is part of the learning curve.  I started out with the full 20 piece HSS set that everybody sells.  You can get them at Shars, Enco, Travers, Harbor Freight, etc.  There are plenty of sellers on Ebay.  I would get a set just to learn with.  The best deal may be if you have a 20% off coupon at HF.  You will find that you will use some sizes a lot, like 1/4, 3/8. and 1/2.  You can buy a lot of individual end mills off Ebay as well.  I am a big fan of cobalt end mills as they are inbetween the price points of cheap HSS and carbide, and they will stay sharp for a good while.   Roughing end mills are your friend.  They will allow you to make all of the nasty, hogging cuts with much less effort and strain on the machine, and at the same time allow you to avoid dulling those nice sharp finishing end mills.   My personal favorites are the 3/8" and 1/2" M42 roughers that Shars sells individually on Ebay.  The 3/8" is approx. $10 shipped and the 1/2" is about $13 shipped.  

The one thing that you should keep a good supply of is cutting oil or some type of lube.  I buy Oatey Dark Cutting Oil at Lowes hardware for $5.  I probably go through a couple of those a month.  If you ever mill without lube, your HSS and cobalt end mills will dull quickly.  

The other thing is way oil for the ways and oil or grease for the lead screws.  The one thing that I didn't like about my 727 is that the handwheels are fitted with ball oilers.  I used oil for the first week or two.  The problem is that the handwheel brackets are not sealed and the oil literally runs right out the bottom.  I took mine apart and cleaned them well and then greased them up good with a Lithium based grease.  No more worrying about creaking handwheels.  

When you get ready to move the machine, put the head all the way down until the quill almost touches the table.  I then put a block of wood under the bottom of the head housing and lifted it from there.   The wood I uses was wide enough to spread the straps out and keep them off of the electrical connections running into the back of the electrical box.  

If you use the metal base that comes with the machine, check it to be sure it is square and flat.  I didn't pay attention to mine and it was off so much that the base of the mill was actually twisting and I was getting some lifting of the table at the travel limits.  I was actually getting a slight bow in my cuts on large pieces until I figured that out.  Also, I had to build a base for my stand that added 5 inches to the height.  I am 5'11" and the factory height would have caused some serious back problems.  

My next addition is going to be a rotary table with chuck and tail stock.  Then of course I will have to get a coxial indicator to center the darned thing under the spindle...

And remember, pictures or it didn't happen!!


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## kd4gij (Nov 10, 2015)

What do you need?  Money lots of money.


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## kf4zht (Nov 11, 2015)

3dshooter80 said:


> As an owner of the 727 myself, the most important thing I did was to add a DRO.  I don't have the cash for a high dollar set up so I went with the Igaging scales.  I have only installed them on the X and Y so far, as there is a quill mounted DRO included on the machine.  So, for about $90, I have mine all set up.  You will need to fab up some of the installation hardware, but that is what makes it so fun and rewarding when you start cranking those dials without having to count revolutions!!
> 
> I think you have a pretty good handle on the short term needs.  Definitely get a set of parallels.  You will need those pretty often, particularly when dealing with smaller parts.  One thing I have found invaluable is a machinist square.  They are pretty cheap and come in real handy when putting things in the vise that don't have square ends to sit on the ways of the vise.
> 
> ...



Your thread was very helpful in deciding on the machine. I do plan on adding a DRO soon, probably start with the igauging and do the bluetooth adapter thing down the road. I'm a fair hand with a soldering iron so it should be pretty easy. For the time being I want to do some manual work so I know how to do it and can compare how much better it is. Thanks for the lifting advice. Last night I grabbed a lifting sling from HF so I didnt have to use a way too long recovery strap or chain

From Enco I ordered:
B&S Edge finder (double ended)
Basic Parallel set
123 Blocks
Mighty Mag base
Mitytoyo DTI (.030)
Indicator holder

The machine shipped yesterday, as of this morning it should be at the UPS terminal tomorrow. Chances are I will wait till Friday for pickup to work around the weather. Last night I cleaned up the area it will be going and reorganized the tool box. Still need to move the drill press and find somewhere for the press. Also need to weld up the hitch mounts on the engine hoist. Unfortunately we have people coming over this saturday so cleaning has to be done first.


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## T Bredehoft (Nov 11, 2015)

kf4zht said:


> cleaning has to be done first



Yeah, life interferes.  but a hobby shop is such a relaxation, once you get to it. 

Bye the way, you'll love your new mill, and the personal service if you have a problem.


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## kf4zht (Nov 12, 2015)

Looks like the mill showed up at the terminal this morning and my enco order should be here today. Last night it was finally dry enough to get the chumpcar and trailer into the backyard and free the truck up. I will bring the truck to work tomorrow and pick it up on my way home. 

Still need to order more endmills. The cheap in me is hitting a wall on everything I look at, and its really the shipping. I don't mind paying $15-20 for an good end mill, but when you then want $5 to send something that will fit in a $2 usps bubble mailer. 

Researched DRO options. Looks like the the touchdro is the best and cheap. I have 3camels price watches for igaging slides and going to see if anyone at work is selling an old tablet. I am curious on the Z DRO. Are people connecting them to the spindle (which has a DRO) or on the entire head? Priority is X and Y for now.


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## kf4zht (Nov 13, 2015)

Brown Santa showed up with my Enco order, got new toys:





And I finished cleaning up the area where the mill will go. The drill press has been moved out and the shop press moved into the corner. The mill will sit somewhere around where the press is in the pictures. There is 20amp power and an air line plumbed in right there, so I should have everything I need. 





I did a 360 of my metalworking area. Trying to decide if there will be enough room for the future lathe, I think cabinets are needed to move storage vertically 





















The tool box is an old blueprint cabinet out of an alabama courthouse. I still need to cut a couple drawer fronts so I can make double height drawers that blend in. For drills, mills, taps, tig supplies, etc the tons of short drawers make for great storage.


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## kf4zht (Nov 16, 2015)

So the last couple days have been busy with the party and work.

Mill got picked up Friday, UPS did a great job, no damage and loaded it right up. I probably overstrapped it but better safe than sorry.





As a note if you pickup with a truck or trailer, PM puts tons of notices on the box basically making the carrier aware that they need to be very careful. Rip these off before you start driving, they are not on well enough for even 45mph. I had to pull over and rip them off.

That evening I got the base off, which is where they store the starter package if you order it. Looks like I will need to do some shimming on the base, my concrete is not that level.

To get it off the truck and through the door (32") I welded some 3 point attachments on my engine hoist. This will let me use it like a boom arm and not need the leg extensions. 







This went quite well at first




And then it didn't...




It looks like one of the 2 bolts holding the boom to the base lost its nut. This let it torque to the side and the flat bar straps did nothing. When I pulled them off I was able to bend them back by hand. Went looking for a replacement bolt since I don't stock many metric nuts. 1/2 was too small and 5/8 would almost fit. Past experience drilling that chinese "steel" and in general using large bits in a hand drill led me to digging through the random hardware bin. In a stroke of luck the missing nut was the exact same threading as the lug nuts on my truck 

No more pictures, at this point I was way behind. But I got it on the stand, the stand shimmed to the floor. I had missed the hardware bag in the stand and did a search everywhere to find it before discovering it wedged in the hinge of the door. Unlike a couple other people I read the bolt pattern was correct on my stand. I was a little annoyed the chip pan was nailed instead of screwed to the crate, it was annoying to get off without damage.

Ran it for a little while and was able to do some test cuts on aluminum. 1/4 end mill on full speed did .150 doc with no issues, I'm sure I can go more aggressive than that. Need to get it trammed in over this week. Some end mill should be showing up soon. Next on the list is a keyless chuck and start the DRO project. After than I am trying to decide between a Boring Head (and coax indicator) or fly cutter/face mill or rotary table.  

A few things I found wrong and had/need to fix:
Collet locator screw in too far and preventing collets from snugging up tight - cleaned, loctited and set
Drawbar too long - added washers
No cable management for power cord, waiting on DRO wires 
Gib adjusts on z are all in the handles way and the one for x are just annoying. Plan on shortening the z axis ones  and replacing the x axis with socket cap screws
T-nuts were a little too wide. Sanded 2 of them down but plan on machining the others for a precise fit.


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## pepi (Nov 23, 2015)

kf4zht said:


> The smaller ones I have are all higher end axtrax and similar. They were bought for a mini cnc mill where the machine didn't have enough HP to overcome any dullness.
> 
> I've been watching craigslist for years. Atlanta is a really bad town for any types of machinest equipment in general. There was never any serious industry here, just a town of middle management. As a result you don't have the retired workers and discount old machines you get elsewhere.
> 
> ...



You said a mouth full, Atlanta is awful for machines & machine tools. Never have I seen so much rusty vintage junk.


I was talking with a seller of a PM 25 mill, tried to close the deal today.....guy forgot to tell me he sold it Sunday. Think that may turn out to be a good thing cause I spotted the PM 727M and that looks like a more robust mill. Funny how things work out sometimes...in the end I would have only save 500 and no warranty......


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## joshua43214 (Nov 23, 2015)

On the drill chuck. I prefer a keyed chuck on a straight arbor.
Keyed chucks are shorter, and grip tighter than keyless chucks (not to mention much cheaper).
The straight arbor is also shorter than the R8 arbor.
You have a nice big mill, it will beg you to fill it up. then the day will come when you will have trouble getting the drill chuck in an out...

Also, do not forget break in, but it in each gear for 10 minutes, then change the oil.
So you also will need some gear oil for the head (those do have gears?)

Ohh,
it looks like you also need a lathe


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## pepi (Nov 23, 2015)

joshua43214 said:


> On the drill chuck. I prefer a keyed chuck on a straight arbor.
> Keyed chucks are shorter, and grip tighter than keyless chucks (not to mention much cheaper).
> The straight arbor is also shorter than the R8 arbor.
> You have a nice big mill, it will beg you to fill it up. then the day will come when you *will have trouble getting the drill chuck in an out...*
> ...



Why would that happen?


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## joshua43214 (Nov 23, 2015)

It requires a lot more clearance to get an R8 mounted keyless chuck in and out of the spindle.
There is also a simple convenience thing. If you use a straight arbor, you can swap other tooling in and out that use the same size arbor with out having to swap collets. I use mostly 1/2" stuff, it is nice to be able to swap between the center finder, a fly mill, end mill, and drill chuck with out having to swap the collet and with very minimal head raising/lowering. I have a really nice Albrecht R8 drill arbor collecting dust because I got sick of the size and inconvenience of it.


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## pepi (Nov 24, 2015)

joshua43214 said:


> It requires a lot more clearance to get an R8 mounted keyless chuck in and out of the spindle.
> There is also a simple convenience thing. If you use a straight arbor, you can swap other tooling in and out that use the same size arbor with out having to swap collets. I use mostly 1/2" stuff, it is nice to be able to swap between the center finder, a fly mill, end mill, and drill chuck with out having to swap the collet and with very minimal head raising/lowering. I have a really nice Albrecht R8 drill arbor collecting dust because I got sick of the size and inconvenience of it.



 joshua,
Oh I like that idea right away, I am about to purchase this 727 mill, new. Thanks I will do some research on the web today, see it I can locate one. Any suggestion as to a brand that would be preferred. I really do not want to do the collet thing, to much like a dermal tool ... LOL

 For a fact I like your idea so much I am going to hold off ordering the mill, want to have this sorted out before had, will save me from buying somethingI would end up never using.

Thanks and best regards,
Greg


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## JR49 (Nov 24, 2015)

pepi said:


> For a fact I like your idea so much I am going to hold off ordering the mill, want to have this sorted out before had, will save me from buying somethingI would end up never using.



Greg,  I would think twice about waiting to order the mill.  Or at least talk to Matt or Nicole about how many 727's they have left in stock.  If they run out, you may end up waiting months for a new batch to come in.  Oh,  and excellent choice on the 727m.  I said a few months ago that there didn't seem to be very many guys buying them, but now it looks like they will be a permanent machine in PM's line-up.  They do fill what was a large gap.  Good luck,  JR49


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## pepi (Nov 24, 2015)

JR49 said:


> Greg,  I would think twice about waiting to order the mill.  Or at least talk to Matt or Nicole about how many 727's they have left in stock.  If they run out, you may end up waiting months for a new batch to come in.  Oh,  and excellent choice on the 727m.  I said a few months ago that there didn't seem to be very many guys buying them, but now it looks like they will be a permanent machine in PM's line-up.  They do fill what was a large gap.  Good luck,  JR49




You think the current heard is the first  run of the 747?


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## wrmiller (Nov 24, 2015)

If it were me, I might call Matt and find out.


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## joshua43214 (Nov 24, 2015)

pepi said:


> joshua,
> Oh I like that idea right away, I am about to purchase this 727 mill, new. Thanks I will do some research on the web today, see it I can locate one. Any suggestion as to a brand that would be preferred. I really do not want to do the collet thing, to much like a dermal tool ... LOL
> 
> For a fact I like your idea so much I am going to hold off ordering the mill, want to have this sorted out before had, will save me from buying somethingI would end up never using.
> ...



I just left QMT a few hours ago, I am pretty sure Matt would not have been so nice to me if I lost him a sale lol.

Really though, You want to do the collet thing. Collets are what we use in mills. the type of collet used in a Dremel is more akin to an E series collet (which are extremely popular). R series and C series collets are a different animal and a designed to center and grip well.
You can use tool holders, but they are less accurate (as a general rule) and far more expensive that collets. Or as another person here once said "tool holders", for when you simply must have run out in your tool."
Tool holders are primarily for CNC or protecting a Morris taper, but some folks do use them with certain set ups.


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## pepi (Nov 24, 2015)

joshua43214 said:


> I just left QMT a few hours ago, I am pretty sure Matt would not have been so nice to me if I lost him a sale lol.
> 
> Really though, You want to do the collet thing. Collets are what we use in mills. the type of collet used in a Dremel is more akin to an E series collet (which are extremely popular). R series and C series collets are a different animal and a designed to center and grip well.
> You can use tool holders, but they are less accurate (as a general rule) and far more expensive that collets. Or as another person here once said "tool holders", for when you simply must have run out in your tool."
> Tool holders are primarily for CNC or protecting a Morris taper, but some folks do use them with certain set ups.



Just to be clear I am going to buy the mill that is not the question. If the collets run more true, and a straight arbor not so. Thinking I would not want that for my setup, thanks for saying, what is this dusty really nice Albrecht R8 drill arbor  you are talking about?  Would it be something I might find useful, as I now reconsider the Collet angle, would you be interested in selling it? Found the site, do not know what i am looking at, as it might apply to the 747.

Yes I am a mill boot, I 'm sure it shows most of my questions will be about the tooling. I have looked at every mill out there and the 747 is a hobby hog, the gear speed drive is a plus I believe.


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## pepi (Nov 24, 2015)

wrmiller said:


> If it were me, I might call Matt and find out.



I mention the first run thing because first runs are like a software beta test, works but has bugs...


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## joshua43214 (Nov 24, 2015)

Ahhh, I see.
In theory, an R8 arbor mounted drill chuck will run more true than a straight shank arbor mounted drill chuck in a collet.
In practice, a good straight arbor in a good collet will be more true than the quill on your fine Taiwan mill, so you are already doing better than the machines tolerance. The R8 arbor will also give you a touch more rigidity, which is good to have when drilling large holes with no pilot. But, once again in practice, probably not needed. I just drilled a 1" hole with my 1/2" straight arbor mounted drill in 3/8" steel on my PM450G (it is smaller than the mill you are getting), and it just went right through it like nothing. An R8 arbor will also save a bit of wear and tear on the collet if you are going to do a lot of large hole drilling, so probably worth investing in if you will be doing a lot of this sort of work.
Trueness really counts when drilling tiny holes, but that is work for a sensitive drill anyway.
You will find that a pretty large number of us use a straight arbor in a collet and never even think about it, or it's limitations.
Regardless, there are many places that you can buy cheap Chinese tooling and get great results. In my opinion, drill arbors and chucks are not one of the places to get cheap. You will probably end up with an assortment of them anyways. I found 4 or 5 drill chucks when I moved the shop to the basement, they have a weird way of sprouting up in a back shelf corner.

As for my arbor, I have not decided what to do with it yet.


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## pepi (Nov 25, 2015)

joshua43214 said:


> Ahhh, I see.
> In theory, an R8 arbor mounted drill chuck will run more true than a straight shank arbor mounted drill chuck in a collet.
> In practice, a good straight arbor in a good collet will be more true than the quill on your fine Taiwan mill, so you are already doing better than the machines tolerance. The R8 arbor will also give you a touch more rigidity, which is good to have when drilling large holes with no pilot. But, once again in practice, probably not needed. I just drilled a 1" hole with my 1/2" straight arbor mounted drill in 3/8" steel on my PM450G (it is smaller than the mill you are getting), and it just went right through it like nothing. An R8 arbor will also save a bit of wear and tear on the collet if you are going to do a lot of large hole drilling, so probably worth investing in if you will be doing a lot of this sort of work.
> Trueness really counts when drilling tiny holes, but that is work for a sensitive drill anyway.
> ...




Thanks for the reply, you can always ask me later if it gets to dusty, if in need I will give it a thought.

Have a happy Thanksgining ... for sure!


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