# ER collets... Trying somethin new...



## Ray C (Apr 18, 2014)

Well, we'll see how this goes... For the CNC machine, I'm going to try ER 32 collets.  Normally, I've always used dedicated endmill holders because I'm a big fan of Weldon shank attachment which prevents the bit from shifting position -which by the way, always digs down deeper into the part and usually ruins it.  -Funny how it's hard to put metal back on once it's been machined off...

Anyhow, time will tell if I like these or not but for now, I'm simply enjoying how nice they look.  The main reason I went this route was to speed-up tool changes and re-zeroing the tool.  I've worked-up a little procedure and if it pans out smoothly, I'll fill you all in.

I have a small production job going on now with the CNC mill and each part requires a few tool changes.  If all goes well, the tool change will just involve swapping the collet, cutter and setting the bit height off a custom made (for this job) gage block.

They're so cute and fun to hold.  -My wife threatened my life for putting them on the kitchen granite -Be warned about such family infractions!

And here you go... some eye-candy tool pics...




Ray


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## DMS (Apr 18, 2014)

I am currently using er-20 TTS collet holders, and like them quite a bit. I have not had any issues with pullout, though, I don't try to hog material out. They will also only cary up to a 1/2" shank. I like the tts holders because they are fairly inexpensive, and the shanks are shorter than a full R-8. 

I'll also add, don't forget the anti-seize (I use the copper based stuff) on the collet holder threads and collet tapers, it is a night and day difference.


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## Ray C (Apr 18, 2014)

DMS said:


> I am currently using er-20 TTS collet holders, and like them quite a bit. I have not had any issues with pullout, though, I don't try to hog material out. They will also only cary up to a 1/2" shank. I like the tts holders because they are fairly inexpensive, and the shanks are shorter than a full R-8.
> 
> I'll also add, don't forget the anti-seize (I use the copper based stuff) on the collet holder threads and collet tapers, it is a night and day difference.



Roger That...

EDIT:  BTW, I was seriously looking at ER 20 and 25 as it would be ideal size for all the work I do.  For the life of me, I could not find the corresponding R8 holder that suited my price range and perceived quality level.  Of course, having said that, no less than a dozen of you will post links.  Anyhow, I'm leery of the inexpensive ones and too broke for the high-dollar units.  Solution:  Get an ER32 setup as good ones are common and reasonably priced...  How's that for fancy logic?

This set I have has  some kind of nickel finish that supposedly prevents seizing up.  (I'll get the stuff you recommended nonetheless).   Anyhow, these collets are slightly different in that they're a slightly unusual fractional size from most sets, are supposedly 0.0001 RO -and have magical powers too.  Time will tell.

I chucked up a fresh carbide and put a tenths TDI on the smooth part of the shank.  It was so flat-lined I didn't think the probe was touching the piece.

We'll see.  I'm skeptical...

Ray


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## DMS (Apr 18, 2014)

This is the stuff I have been using

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=307-3456&PMPXNO=8204937

I haven't used anything else, but this stuff works great. It's like a big stick of lip balm, and a little dab'll do ya. I have had the same stick for about 2 years.


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## Dan_S (Apr 18, 2014)

ray why don't you just set the tool offsets in the cnc controller?


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## Ray C (Apr 18, 2014)

Dan_S said:


> ray why don't you just set the tool offsets in the cnc controller?



I can do that too but, I was really trying to get away from messing with the drawbar any more than necessary.  I need switch different diameter bits and would need to pull the drawbar.


Ray


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## dave2176 (Apr 18, 2014)

Ray C said:


> They're so cute and fun to hold.
> Ray



Yes they are but check out this ER11.


Almost as adorable as these 2 day old goats.


Dave


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## DMS (Apr 18, 2014)

Not sure if you have seen any of the various pneumatic drawbar designs floating around for the square column mills, but they would be worth looking at. A pneumatic drawbar is high on my list if upgrades.


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## dave2176 (Apr 18, 2014)

DMS said:


> Not sure if you have seen any of the various pneumatic drawbar designs floating around for the square column mills, but they would be worth looking at. A pneumatic drawbar is high on my list if upgrades.



Are you referring to those multi stage air cylinders to compress a bellville washer stack and release Tormach tool holders from the 3/4" collet? Anyway, I think those are way cool.

Dave


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## AlanR (Apr 18, 2014)

DMS said:


> Not sure if you have seen any of the various pneumatic drawbar designs floating around for the square column mills, but they would be worth looking at. A pneumatic drawbar is high on my list if upgrades.


You don't have to wait, just get a butterfly impact wrench and a stool if you're short. Make the fancy stuff later.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 18, 2014)

So the r8 conversion shank stays in the machine and the you unlock the smaller collets with the spanner? If so that could save some time and some draw bars I figure. How much, if any, clearance do you lose from spindle to table over the r8?


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## Ray C (Apr 18, 2014)

AlanR said:


> You don't have to wait, just get a butterfly impact wrench and a stool if you're short. Make the fancy stuff later.



Auto drawbar stuff is cool to look at but, at my level of sophistication with this whole ordeal, it's going to have to wait.  The good news though, is the customer for the batch of parts accepted the first lot of five samples.  In about two-three weeks from now, followed by a couple days of heat treating the parts, the mill will have paid for itself twice over...


Ray


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## AlanR (Apr 18, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Auto drawbar stuff is cool to look at but, at my level of sophistication with this whole ordeal, it's going to have to wait.


And when you finally spend the $50 you'll wonder why you waited so long.


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## Ray C (Apr 18, 2014)

AlanR said:


> And when you finally spend the $50 you'll wonder why you waited so long.



Well... The image that comes to my mind when I think "auto drawbar" looks really like a "Automatic Tool Changer".  Now that would be cool to have.  Anyhow, the part takes 58 minutes.  First two tool changes happen in the first 15 minutes then, the ball nose takes over for the rest of the time....  Hey, I know!  I need two more CNC mills!  (A bigger shop to put them in would be nice too)...


Ray


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## AlanR (Apr 18, 2014)

I have an ER25 collet chuck and all but one size of the collets. I only have about 5 R8 collets, with the butterfly I switch back and forth all the time, just the impact in my hand. I'm 6'4" so it's easy to reach up.

$52 on Amazon today and you'll have one on Tuesday, ask me which one to buy.


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## Ray C (Apr 18, 2014)

AlanR said:


> I have an ER25 collet chuck and all but one size of the collets. I only have about 5 R8 collets, with the butterfly I switch back and forth all the time, just the impact in my hand. I'm 6'4" so it's easy to reach up.
> 
> $52 on Amazon today and you'll have one on Tuesday, ask me which one to buy.



Sure, I'll look at it... Which one is it?


Ray


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## AlanR (Apr 18, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Sure, I'll look at it... Which one is it?
> 
> 
> Ray


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MQEKTY/ref=oh_details_o09_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I even posted a review.


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## xalky (Apr 18, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Well... The image that comes to my mind when I think "auto drawbar" looks really like a "Automatic Tool Changer".  Now that would be cool to have.  Anyhow, the part takes 58 minutes.  First two tool changes happen in the first 15 minutes then, the ball nose takes over for the rest of the time....  Hey, I know!  I need two more CNC mills!  (A bigger shop to put them in would be nice too)...
> 
> 
> Ray


I wanna see the parts your making! :thumbzup:


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## kd4gij (Apr 18, 2014)

A lot of guys are using this one and say it works great for the money.http://www.harborfreight.com/3-8-ei...s-torque-compact-air-impact-wrench-93100.html


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## Ray C (Apr 18, 2014)

xalky said:


> I wanna see the parts your making! :thumbzup:



Sorry Marcel.  No can do... NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) in place.


Ray

- - - Updated - - -



AlanR said:


> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MQEKTY/ref=oh_details_o09_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> I even posted a review.



Thanks...

I won't have to buy it -already have one...


Ray


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## nmasi (Apr 18, 2014)

I'm using an ER20 set off eBay and I love it.  Not sure which seller but it came from Canada.  I mostly use the 3/8 and 1/2 collet but it's a definite time and frustration saver. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## AlanR (Apr 19, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Sorry Marcel.  No can do... NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) in place.
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> ...


And you haven't tried it on the drawbar?


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## Jamespvill (Apr 19, 2014)

I got an ER20 setup when I upgraded my mill last month. It's used in conjunction with the Tormach tooling system and I love it. I've never had any issues with tool slippage...Heck, I even managed to stop my machine before the collet slipped when I was using my super fly cutter. That was an oopsies and not just a test... 

I use the harbor freight butterfly wrench with some rope and a spring dangling from the ceiling until I have some time to build a nicer power drawbar setup. It's dinky, but it works. 


Good stuff on having the mill already paid for itself a few times over so soon, I do believe I would call that a lucrative investment!


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## Ray C (Apr 19, 2014)

AlanR said:


> And you haven't tried it on the drawbar?



Well, yes and no. I guess, for a bunch of reasons.   I use a double-nut arrangement on the end of the drawbar and use two wrenches.  I like to feel with my hands, how much torque is being applied.  But also, I do my best to lay-out operations to minimize tool changes.  For some reason, the powered methods have never been a big issue for me and the few moments it takes to loosen a DB and the satisfaction of knowing it's properly seated and tightened overcomes the urge to go with automated methods.  Also, it just seems to me that this class of machine was not intended for high production or "lights-out" operation and somehow, I have the feeling that attempting to make it something which it is not, will lead me down a path I'm not interested in going.   I guess I'm a technical Luddite of sorts...

Anyhow, if I had a modern $xx,000.00 machine, you bet I'd want ATC and all the trimmings...


Ray


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## metalmole (Apr 20, 2014)

I put a ER40 collet chuck plate on my lathe I got from  Tool for cheap, and I am very very happy with the accuracy, I also got a R8/ER40 holder for my mill, after a couple operations I found out the ER40 collet nut would get in the way. I got a R8/ER16 collet set and love it on the mill...


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## DMS (Apr 20, 2014)

dave2176 said:


> Are you referring to those multi stage air cylinders to compress a bellville washer stack and release Tormach tool holders from the 3/4" collet? Anyway, I think those are way cool.
> 
> Dave



Yep, those are the ones, though I have also seen some that use a regular coil spring (I think valve springs). This was on an X2 IIRC.

The ones based on a butterfly valve look nice, except that they aren't really adaptable for an ATC (which is the main reason I want a power drawbar


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## kd4gij (Apr 20, 2014)

DMS said:


> Yep, those are the ones, though I have also seen some that use a regular coil spring (I think valve springs). This was on an X2 IIRC.
> 
> The ones based on a butterfly valve look nice, except that they aren't really adaptable for an ATC (which is the main reason I want a power drawbar



With a duel solenoid valve the butterfly can be used with an ATC


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## ZoSo (Apr 23, 2014)

Ray, do you have a link to the ER32 setup you have? Might want to try it out. Thanks.



Ray C said:


> Roger That...
> 
> EDIT:  BTW, I was seriously looking at ER 20 and 25 as it would be ideal size for all the work I do.  For the life of me, I could not find the corresponding R8 holder that suited my price range and perceived quality level.  Of course, having said that, no less than a dozen of you will post links.  Anyhow, I'm leery of the inexpensive ones and too broke for the high-dollar units.  Solution:  Get an ER32 setup as good ones are common and reasonably priced...  How's that for fancy logic?
> 
> ...


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## Ray C (Apr 23, 2014)

ZoSo said:


> Ray, do you have a link to the ER32 setup you have? Might want to try it out. Thanks.



It's from Shars.  I don't think we're allowed to post product links anymore...

FWIW, I'm still pondering an ER 25.  ER 32 is fine so far and exhibits no problems at all but, a shorter collet holder with a smaller diameter (for the sake of visibility and clearance) is more desirable.  On my CNC machine, I doubt I'll ever hold an endmill larger than 1/2".  Shars doesn't seem to have an ER 25 / R8 collet holder.

Ray


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## stevecmo (Apr 23, 2014)

Ray C said:


> I don't think we're allowed to post product links anymore...
> 
> Ray



Is that true?  If so, I think it's a mistake.  I think it's valuable to all to know exactly what others are buying and using and where to get it.  It's convenient to click on a link rather than extensive searches that may not turn up the correct item.  If this is true, what's the reasoning?

Steve


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## AlanR (Apr 23, 2014)

Ray C said:


> It's from Shars.  I don't think we're allowed to post product links anymore...
> 
> FWIW, I'm still pondering an ER 25.  ER 32 is fine so far and exhibits no problems at all but, a shorter collet holder with a smaller diameter (for the sake of visibility and clearance) is more desirable.  On my CNC machine, I doubt I'll ever hold an endmill larger than 1/2".  Shars doesn't seem to have an ER 25 / R8 collet holder.
> 
> Ray


CTC tools on ebay (ctctoolseller). Nice people.

- - - Updated - - -



stevecmo said:


> Is that true?  If so, I think it's a mistake.


Seems not very well thought out.


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## ronboult (Apr 24, 2014)

DMS said:


> I am currently using er-20 TTS collet holders, and like them quite a bit. I have not had any issues with pullout, though, I don't try to hog material out. They will also only cary up to a 1/2" shank. I like the tts holders because they are fairly inexpensive, and the shanks are shorter than a full R-8.
> 
> I'll also add, don't forget the anti-seize (I use the copper based stuff) on the collet holder threads and collet tapers, it is a night and day difference.



Hi DMS
You indicate that you put the antiseize on the collet tapers. I assume you mean the outside taper.
Does this cause the collet to rotate in the holder under load.
So far I have been using mine dry.


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## ronboult (Apr 24, 2014)

Hi RayC,
Can I encourage you to try the Toolmach system.  It has a lot of advantages. For a basic trial you need a Toolmach R8 to3/4 short collet(LMS), a couple of tormach ER20 collet chucks and few ER20 collets in the size to hold your end mills. There are Tormach style ER collets available from other vendors on ebay in ER 20 & ER25 sizes. There are also Tormach End Mill holders for weldon shank cutters but these are really only useful for CNC because you cant adjust the height of the individual cutters. See below.

Full instructions are on the Tormach site. 

I have taken the time to set my end mills at the same height(very fiddly time consuming operation) but it was worth the effort as I can change end mills in under a minute with no effect on the z axis height from one cutter to the next. Just great when you have to make several changes of cutter on the one job.

They just work with no fuss.

PS you can also use them with your CNC by just measuring the offset then change them to your hearts content without rezeroing the z axis

Cheers
Ron


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## ZoSo (Apr 24, 2014)

I wish I had the skills to make an ER collet chuck for my G0602 lathe. Anyone know where I can purchase one? It would be nice to use the same ER collets with the lathe and my G0704 mill with the setup Ray is using.


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## dave2176 (Apr 24, 2014)

ZoSo said:


> I wish I had the skills to make an ER collet chuck for my G0602 lathe. Anyone know where I can purchase one? It would be nice to use the same ER collets with the lathe and my G0704 mill with the setup Ray is using.



I dare say you have the skills. Use your 3 jaw to bore and thread the spindle hole in a piece of bar stock. Do not remove the work piece from the chuck until it fits correct. Make a mock spindle to use for test fitting. Screw the work piece on the spindle to turn the other side working to shape it as desired and prepare a thread for a purchased collet nut. For the bore use a suitable boring tool to create the straight bore then set your compound to 8* a bore at that angle until a collet fits well. You can use a 5" sine bar with a .6958 stack to set your angle.

Dave


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## DMS (Apr 24, 2014)

ronboult said:


> Hi DMS
> You indicate that you put the antiseize on the collet tapers. I assume you mean the outside taper.
> Does this cause the collet to rotate in the holder under load.
> So far I have been using mine dry.



I have never had a collet spin. I apply anti seize to the front and back outer tapers, and the nut threads. The inside of the collet should be clean and dry. Whenever the subject of collets comes up, I link to this doc (if somebody else hasn't already done so).

http://www.tormach.com/uploads/163/TD31090_ToolHolding-pdf.html

It focuses specifically on TTS tools in an R8 holder, but the principle applies to any type of collet. Moving surfaces should be lubricated to maximize grip for a given amount of torque. The differences they show on lubricated vs un-lubricated collets is huge (about 3x)


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## ronboult (Apr 24, 2014)

Hi DMS
thanks for the reply

I was aware of the Tormach bulletin for lubricating the R8 collet and lubricate as directed.
Its just that I have never seen any advice to do the same with ER collets. I have seen that you can buy ball bearing ER collet nuts to reduce friction when tightening, but these are a little expensive to fit to all my Tormach holders.

Ron


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## genec (Apr 24, 2014)

ray would an up cut bit, keep from being pulled out. they have them in wood working


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## DMS (Apr 24, 2014)

ronboult said:


> Hi DMS
> thanks for the reply
> 
> I was aware of the Tormach bulletin for lubricating the R8 collet and lubricate as directed.
> ...



I have been doing this with all my collets since I read the TTS document, and have been pleased (ER-20, R-8, and 2J). Collets tighten down well, and release is easy when you want. Never had a pullout, or slip of material since using this method. Give it a try, I think you'll like it. Main thing to remember is, just a dab of the anti-seize is enough; you don't want it oozing everywhere (especially not into the inside of the collet).


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## Ray C (Apr 25, 2014)

Hi All...

A quick update about the new ER collets...

So far, so good.  I'm just about done making a batch of 125 parts, over half of which were made using the ER32 setup.  It seems just fine -better than I expected.  There's been no problem with slipping or bit digging at all.  Also, I have not used the anti-seize that was recommended (although I did order some) and there's been no problems at all getting collets or bits out.  Actually, I don't see how they could stick because the collet nut has an offset ring that captures the collet.  After one turn outward on the collet nut, it opens the collet, the bit drops out and the collet comes out still retained in the nut. So far, I just made sure the holder and collet were clean and I smear a tiny bit of way oil in there once in a while.

As for other tooling mechanisms, such as the Tormach etc, I think I'll hold off and just keep life simple.  Also, until a need arises, I'll probably stick with the ER32 instead of switching to ER25 since I have a good collection of carbides up to 3/4" (although I don't use them very often).

Anyhow, in between tool changes today, I spent a bunch of time re-doing the tool library in BobCAD to model the dimensions of the ER32 holder.  That increases my investment in the #32 size considerably...

So far, life with ER collets is good.  I like not having to unscrew the drawbar.

Ray


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## tertiaryjim (Apr 25, 2014)

What about rubbing graphite on the spindle taper?
A dry lube wouldn't hold chips or grit.


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## DMS (Apr 25, 2014)

You could try it, but I have the feeling it might be "too good". You need just enough to keep things from galling/binding, but not enough so they are slippery. I also tend to have the problem that dry lubes don't always stay where I put em )

Glad things are working out for you Ray; it's always nice when our shiny new toys work out the way we hoped 

Re the ER32. I was looking at the tormach site, and they have ER-32 holders now  I might pick up a couple as I have a nice set of ER-32 collets and no holder (sold it with my old lathe).

The "stick" in the ERs usually doesn't involve having to pry the collets at, because as you said, there is a ring that pulls the collet out. What I experienced when I ran them dry is that it required a lot of force to break the torque on the nut on loosening, and then, once the nut was loose, it took a fair amount of torque to pull the collet out of the taper.


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## AlanR (Apr 25, 2014)

Ray C said:


> I like not having to unscrew the drawbar.
> 
> Ray


That's partly because you have made it such a chore for yourself.:whistle:


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## Ray C (Apr 25, 2014)

DMS said:


> You could try it, but I have the feeling it might be "too good". You need just enough to keep things from galling/binding, but not enough so they are slippery. I also tend to have the problem that dry lubes don't always stay where I put em )
> 
> Glad things are working out for you Ray; it's always nice when our shiny new toys work out the way we hoped
> 
> ...



Perhaps the reason I'm met with such luck is that these collets are highly polished.  I give a good bit of love when tightening them and likewise loosing them but, as soon as it breaks loose, the endmill drops out and the nut unscrews with finger pressure.  The threads on the nut and collet holder are ground and polished and, I put a very light smear of oil on them.

I purchased an ER32 collet nut wrench that has 4 spanner pins that are about 1/4" wide.  -Nice and beefy.  I'm using a large crescent wrench on the flats of the holder but, I already made a special purpose wrench for that but, it's waiting for the next time I fire-up the heat treat oven.




Ray


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