# Shop Fox M1112 not as described, should I send this back?



## Chip (Nov 24, 2014)

My Shop Fox M1112 delivered last week. Now that I have found the time to look all my parts over it turns out that they shipped me the lathe with a lighter weight fabricated steel stand rather than the cast iron version that is listed in thier owners manual, and shown in their website pictures.

It seemed like it might be a case of mistaken delivery so I contacted a rep at Shop Fox and after they changed their story a couple times I was eventually told that the steel stand I received was all they have. My first thoughts are that selling something with such a significant change in specification without making people aware is false advertising whether intentional or not. I'm strongly considering sending it back, and if so it will be on their dollar.

My question is; do the more knowledgeable people here think that a steel stand is equal to a cast iron version?


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## rgray (Nov 24, 2014)

I think I would seriously consider sending it back. I have a M1112 with the cast stands and after hearing plenty of stories about the ripple vibration effect showing up on work from a grizzly g4003 with steel stands I'd hate to loose that vibration dampening.
I have read of fixes for the steel stands, but that's no fun to have to fix something that you already paid for and didn't get.


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## dave2176 (Nov 24, 2014)

I would want the cast iron for its dampening affect. Be careful with the "specifications subject to change without notice" clause.
Dave


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## Reeltor (Nov 24, 2014)

rgray said:


> I think I would seriously consider sending it back. I have a M1112 with the cast stands and after hearing plenty of stories about the ripple vibration effect showing up on work from a grizzly g4003 with steel stands I'd hate to loose that vibration dampening.
> I have read of fixes for the steel stands, but that's no fun to have to fix something that you already paid for and didn't get.



And a cast iron stand costs a lot more than a sheet metal one.  If it was me I'd protest the transaction with the credit card company (in writing).  You only have 60 days from date of purchase.   The question is, is the purchase date the delivery date or the order date?

Good luck, I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.  

Mike


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## mksj (Nov 25, 2014)

I guess the main question of was who you bought through and if it was with a credit card. Some credit card companies, like American Express are very good if there are any buyer issues. The manual and specification sheet state Cast Iron and Steel stand, sometimes the base is cast and the cabinet is metal sheet. One can always mass load the base and/or stiffen the cabinets further for very little. I have a PM1340 with steel cabinets, I have no issues, but at some point I may get some rectangular steel tubes and run a set between the cabinets at the rear back top/bottom. You can also mass load them by filling them with concrete, people have also done this to the bases.

If they no longer make the cast iron base as listed, then what are the alternatives machines. The issues with the G4003G "ripple vibration" has multiple reported etiologies, the most common seems to be problems with the pulley alignment (and out of round/balance issues), bad or mismatched belts, single phase motor cogging  and adjustments (loose motor mounts....) as the most common issues.  If you like the machine otherwise, you got a great price and the base is heavy steel, then I can't see that it would make a significant difference at this level of machine. Very few of the machines in this weight/size range come with an all cast iron base. If it is something you just can't live with then see about your options for returning it.


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## Chip (Nov 25, 2014)

Thank you all for your thoughts on the matter. 

I bought it through an authorized seller through ebay so returning it for a full refund should be pretty straightforward since the pictures and specifications don't match. Darn shame they downgraded that lathe. I figured for the premium Shop Fox wants people to pay over a grizzly G4003g that it would have a premium configuration. Turns out that it is built the same, or less.
.
So...if I were to keep it and determined that the stand needed help, I could possibly improve it by filling it with sandbags? I have a welder. Would bracing it somehow be a better way to go?


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## coolidge (Nov 25, 2014)

Chip said:


> Thank you all for your thoughts on the matter.
> 
> I bought it through an authorized seller through ebay so returning it for a full refund should be pretty straightforward since the pictures and specifications don't match. Darn shame they downgraded that lathe. I figured for the premium Shop Fox wants people to pay over a grizzly G4003g that it would have a premium configuration. Turns out that it is built the same, or less.
> .
> So...if I were to keep it and determined that the stand needed help, I could possibly improve it by filling it with sandbags? I have a welder. Would bracing it somehow be a better way to go?



Well its $500 more than the G4003G when you factor in shipping from Grizzly vs free shipping from Amazon, I don't see anything worth an extra $500 I own a G4003G and it looks to be identical except for the coolant pump. The Shop Fox does list the spindle bore at 1.625 which I find questionable as the G4003G is 1.574 and I find it hard to believe the lathes would be a clone except that the Shop Fox spindle bore is another .051 inches larger. I think that is unlikely. So I don't think the Shop Fox is worth $500 than the Grizzly. Plus I'd go with a fog buster type coolant system in any case. So for $500 is it worth returning in it and just buying the Grizzly? Well $500 would buy a good bit of tooling, hell that would buy an Aloris tool post.

As for the stand here's the deal, the factory stand is too tall and too shallow imo. I'm 5' 7" and its about 4 inches too tall for me. But its the shallow depth I'm concerned with, if its not bolted flat to the concrete it would tip over in an average earth quake. If you put leveling pads on the stand its even more shallow by several inches. So I'm already planning to build my own stand that's a bit lower and quite a bit deeper.

That's my 2 cents.


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## mksj (Nov 26, 2014)

The eBay listing is the same price as a G4003G shipped, and probably the same basic machine and stand. The current listing just specifies heavy duty base on both lathes specs. At the end of the day, I do not think it is going to make any tangible difference. If you are in earthquake country and bolt it to a concrete slab, it will be very rigid. As previously mentioned, most lathes in this size have metal fabricated bases and do just fine. You would have to get a much heavier $$$ machine to probably see a significant difference.


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## tmarks11 (Nov 26, 2014)

Chip said:


> ...with a lighter weight fabricated steel stand rather than the cast iron version...do the more knowledgeable people here think that a steel stand is equal to a cast iron version?



What is the thickness of the steel used to weld up the base? 

While steel doesn't give you quite the same magical, vibration absorbing characteristics that cast iron does, it should still work just fine if it is a similar thickness.  If you haven't assembled the stand yet, what is the weight of each side (since the website says they weigh 108 # and 93#).

200# of cast iron isn't really going to "absorb" much vibration.... at least significantly more than a 1000# cast iron machine hasn't already "absorbed".  The key element is whether or not it acts to amplify that vibration.... which a thin flimsy stand would.  I suspect what you got ISN'T a thin flimsy stand.

At the end of the day, the cast iron bases are pretty crudely manufactured.  A welded steel base is a higher quality unit.

Where the cast iron stands start to shine is the one piece heavy castings (like 1000# or more) found on the base of the PM 1440HD or Grizzly G0509G.


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## coolidge (Nov 26, 2014)

AND my new welded up lathe stand will be on Footmaster casters with the built in ratchet adjustment. I purchased these for my mill stand, they are quite large and heavy duty. The ratchet is great, its like a built in ratcheting socket wrench that goes up or down with a little flip lever same as on a wrench. I got tired of scratching my head trying to integrate separate mounting locations for casters vs leveling pads, then having to raise the casters up in relation to the pads so the pads were run out 3-4 inches to clear the casters, just a real pain. Having the level pad and caster integrated into a single unit is so much easier and since this particular caster is 4 inches tall that's 4 less inches of stand you have to build. I will go with the 4 bolt base plate version of the caster for the lathe vs this stem mount though.


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## Chip (Nov 27, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for the information.

I am now waiting to see what bibbtoolandcutter has to say prior to making a  decision. I have been employed in customer service in the past and I  know that sometimes you need to get a manager/etc. involved to be  certain you are not simply dealing with an employee that is misinformed  or too lazy to do their job. It happens.



coolidge said:


> As for the stand here's the deal, the factory stand is too tall and too shallow imo. I'm 5' 7" and its about 4 inches too tall for me. But its the shallow depth I'm concerned with, if its not bolted flat to the concrete it would tip over in an average earth quake. If you put leveling pads on the stand its even more shallow by several inches. So I'm already planning to build my own stand that's a bit lower and quite a bit deeper.



I am sure that this would prove to be very helpful to others, even if not for myself, should I decide to go forward with the return.


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## coolidge (Nov 27, 2014)

And another thing about that factory stand...its not easy to clean or retrieve parts from the rear or underneath. Ideally the chip pan would be much lower like on the G0509G. Remember you may have multiple cables laying in the shallow chip pan tangled up in a hairball of long stringy curled chips, e.g. DRO and light cables. I was fishing parts out of that mess yesterday.


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## Reeltor (Nov 27, 2014)

Chip,

If there really is a $500 difference between the pricing of the steel and cast iron stands, ask for a $500 credit to be used for accessories.  A win, win, you have a machine that will do the job and be able to get the goodies that you will need now instead of when the budget allows.  Just a thought,

Mike


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## tmarks11 (Nov 28, 2014)

My Grizzly G0709G has a welded steel stand.  I haven't mic'd it, but it probably is made up of 1/4" plate.  I think it is more than sturdy enough, and a cast iron stand (unless it was a one piece like on the G0509G or PM1440HD) wouldn't really be an upgrade.


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## coolidge (Nov 28, 2014)

tmarks look inside the cabinet door on your stand, my door was vibrating the other day and I opened that door and noticed that it was only tack welding on the inside.


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## tmarks11 (Nov 29, 2014)

coolidge said:


> tmarks look inside the cabinet door on your stand, my door was vibrating the other day and I opened that door and noticed that it was only tack welding on the inside.


Yeah, the welding on mine isn't the best.  I wouldn't describe it as just tack welded, but the welding is not continuous.

maybe that is why they don't put hinged doors on it....hoping you don't notice.  

I haven't noticed any vibration problems with the base.  You could take a sack full of sand and throw it in there to add a little weight and change the resonant frequency.


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## george wilson (Nov 29, 2014)

I doubt you'll get any help from your credit card co. on shipping costs being transferred to the shipper. I ordered something off of television(That's the LAST time I'll EVER order from a TV ad!!!) They sent me FOUR units,which really ran the cost up. I ordered only ONE unit. All the credit card company would do was advise me to return the units. That cost me $60.00 total in shipping. just to get a look at the items. The jerks were probably banking on the average consumer being too complacent to bother returning the 3 unwanted items.

The name "bib" being included in the name of the company makes me suspicious that Ali Babin,a well known rookster(I think),might be involved in the company your lathe came from. He or someone with a very similar name is well known on another forum as being someone to stay well away from. I'm being careful here to not directly slander his name,you understand. I'll say that there is another dealer with a very similar name who rebuilds Hardinge lathes and is quite o.k.. I doubt the Hardinge rebuilder sells Shop Fox machinery.

Anyway,I think you are out of luck getting them to pay for return shipping. Shop Fox stuff is no better than anyone else's Chinese machinery. Just another name someone dreamed up to sell the same old stuff.

DO let us know how you do on this deal. And,good luck.

BTW,My Taiwan made 16" 1986 Grizzly lathe has a 1/4" thick welded stand. It does fine as long as it is insulated from the concrete floor. It practically "knurled" the work before I accidentally isolated it from the concrete by driving oak wedges under it while leveling. Now it sits on rubber Mason machine pads. You might well bear this in mind when setting your lathe up. I also isolated the motor from its mount with rubber "donuts" I got from an auto supply place. I think they had something to do with mounting Volkswagen mufflers. Isolating the 1 phase motor did no good though. It was isolating the lathe from the concrete that magically made the vibrations vanish.


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## jbollman (Nov 29, 2014)

Chip said:


> My Shop Fox M1112 delivered last week. Now that I have found the time to look all my parts over it turns out that they shipped me the lathe with a lighter weight fabricated steel stand rather than the cast iron version that is listed in thier owners manual, and shown in their website pictures.
> 
> It seemed like it might be a case of mistaken delivery so I contacted a rep at Shop Fox and after they changed their story a couple times I was eventually told that the steel stand I received was all they have. My first thoughts are that selling something with such a significant change in specification without making people aware is false advertising whether intentional or not. I'm strongly considering sending it back, and if so it will be on their dollar.
> 
> ...


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