# Starting completely from scratch -literally- In what order should I make my tools?



## G Jones (Oct 23, 2019)

Hello everyone!
I'm planning on setting up a very small benchtop metalworking shop over the next few years. I want to be able to work on material sizes from watchmaking to small models. The catch, however is that I'm going to do it from scratch - LITERALLY. 

A few years ago I broke my back and ended up on long term disability, effectively retiring me at 33 years o age. I started losing my mind without something to take up my time so I started to get into metalworking. The problem is, being disabled, I only have maybe 50-150$ a month to invest in my shop. On the upside I'm a skilled woodworker and I have access to some bigger machines at the local makers space if I need them.

My plan is to start with a surface plate and some nist certified gauges and work my way up through all the basic steps of accuracy, from squares and rules, to dial indicators, all the way up to a mini drill press, lathe, and mill one day.

So my first question is this- if you had to build a machine shop from scratch on a desert island, with only a surface plate and gauges to reference, how would you start?

Cheers!

PS - I'm aware this is totally crazy and it's going to take many, many years, but that's sort of the point. I have all the time in the world, next to no money, and a solid understanding of basic engineering.
 I want to see how far I can take things.


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## matthewsx (Oct 23, 2019)

Hello and welcome

The first tool to make would be a lathe, that is after you make the foundry....
You're not the first to have this thought.






						Gingery Book Store
					

Gingery Book Store features books written expecially for Inventors, Tinkerers, Machinists and Experimenters



					gingerybooks.com
				




Detailed blog about building  gingery



			Building my Gingery style lathe
		


There seem to be a few of you in Victoria, maybe you should get together?


Cheers,

JOhn


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## T Bredehoft (Oct 23, 2019)

Start by assembling a small assortment of hand tools, hammer (machinist, not claw) Cold chisels. hack-saw, files and blocks of metal. Work toward making a small  hand of foot (treadle) powered lathe.  With this you could make a larger lathe, needing a motor.

I'd start by locating a treadle operated (antique) sewing machine. It is claimed that  a lathe can reproduce itself.


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## Flyinfool (Oct 23, 2019)

I would start with what ever tool is needed to make the first piece of the first tool you need. Then you first need to acquire the tool to measure that first part.

If you start by picking tools to buy, then you may end up spending a lot on pieces that are cool but you have no use for. If you get pieces and tools as needed then you will not have wasted any of your precious little cash on things you do not need and may never use.


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## G Jones (Oct 23, 2019)

I've looked through the Gingery plans extensively! I'm planning something much smaller for now though, something closer to a jewelers/watchmakers lathe.

as far as power tools are concerned, I would think a drill press would be a better first step so that I can at least make plumb and level holes with which to bolt together a beginners lathe.

I was thinking of taking a 3 or 4 hp motor from a treadmill, hacking up a speed controller, and having one big motor for all my tools. I can't really see needing more torque for a tabletop machine.

The other big question is cutting dovetails. or at least some sort of locking /sliding keyway.  Haven't quite figured that out yet.

Cheers!


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## matthewsx (Oct 23, 2019)

If you're willing to repair stuff and piece together things from other things you can create whatever you want.

I'm building a CNC mill/drill from piece parts and imagination.









						Homemade vertical mill drill
					

Well, I guess I'm gonna try to make myself a mill for cheap.  I found this column on Craigslist for $80.    And I ordered this spindle I can power with a VFD I already have.    And I'm going to get one of these cheap x-y milling tables.    And probably look for a really flat piece of C channel...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




That said, if I was looking to get into a very small lathe I would seriously consider checking out one of the cheap china made things. If that doesn't appeal to you look into building with 80/20 extrusions.

Interesting idea using just one motor, like a modern miniature line shaft shop

Cheers,

JOhn


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## matthewsx (Oct 23, 2019)

And yes, you will want a drill press.

Lay it on it's side and you have the start of a lathe....

But I use my lathe to drill holes all the time, makes it easy to put them exactly where I want with a 4 jaw chuck.


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## ELHEAD (Oct 23, 2019)

Find this book


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## ELHEAD (Oct 23, 2019)

Sorry bout that I hit post too soon. Most of this book is wood working tools but it should get the creative mind in gear.
Also look at vintageprojects.com
Dave


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## MontanaLon (Oct 23, 2019)

Look for busted machines in your area. You may be able to piece some stuff together by finding "machines that no longer work" and putting 2 together or as you have already said, using a treadmill motor to power it. Local to me there have been a couple of mini lathes for cheap that had bad motor control boards. Otherwise they looked in decent shape. 

It is easier to use a lathe to make a lathe or any other tool than to make a lathe without one.


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

Flyinfool, T Bredehoft, I think you guys both have some great points. I think my first few steps are to decide which tools I can't reasonably expect to make myself, and start slowly collecting the materials for the ones I can.

Fortunately I also blow glass (lampworking) as a hobby, so I have access to some large torches and very high heat electric kilns (1700c) so I can temper basic steel tools with some ease. 

As far as things I'm not willing to put in the effort, or am simply incapable of making, so far  I've come up with;

A surface plate
NIST cert gauge blocks
Sharpening/honing stones

Anything else you can think of would be appreciated. Chisels, files, scrapers, rulers, hammers, etc, I can make all that. 

I'll also need to ponder some simple work holding solutions.


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

MontanaLon said:


> Look for busted machines in your area. You may be able to piece some stuff together by finding "machines that no longer work" and putting 2 together or as you have already said, using a treadmill motor to power it. Local to me there have been a couple of mini lathes for cheap that had bad motor control boards. Otherwise they looked in decent shape.
> 
> It is easier to use a lathe to make a lathe or any other tool than to make a lathe without one.


MontanaLon - This is a great idea, but honestly its beyond my budget. I can literally expect to have 100 a month to spare beyond my basic rent and food bills. The disability check I receive barely covers my essentials. Fortunately there is a Makers Space in town, and I do expect to make good use of what they have there.

Victoria isn't exactly a tech or industry city so used machines seem to be rare and far outside my budget. (used lathes for 600-1000 that look sketchy arent really what im into)

When it finally comes to making machines, I plan to build with scrap metal and cast granite. Before my injury I worked in very high end cast concrete so I'll be completely at home making complicated molds.


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## Aaron_W (Oct 24, 2019)

G Jones said:


> Victoria isn't exactly a tech or industry city so used machines seem to be rare and far outside my budget. (used lathes for 600-1000 that look sketchy arent really what im into)



Lots of people buy small metal working machines, use them a bit then decide it isn't the hobby for them. Used are often 50% or less of the new price depending on how much they want them gone, $200-300 for a working 7x14 mini lathe is not unheard of. Trades are sometimes accepted so if you make nice things you might think about that option.

A small hand or foot powered lathe isn't crazy, that is where lathes began.

I'll second the suggestion of Gingery books, they are fairly cheap most about $8-10, a few $15-20. Even if you don't want to build things as he shows them, the ideas and concepts are very useful and much can easily be translated into your own designs.


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

"Lots of people buy small metal working machines, use them a bit then decide it isn't the hobby for them. Used are often 50% or less of the new price depending on how much they want them gone, $200-300 for a working 7x14 mini lathe is not unheard of. Trades are sometimes accepted so if you make nice things you might think about that option."

Different Worlds! I want to make something about twice the size of a watchmakers lathe, The closest thing I've ever even SEEN is a unimat, and they were asking around 1000$ There is on UsedVictoria a  Myford Ml-7 right now for around 3000$

My best bet, honestly, I think, is to invest, where I can into accurate reference tools and build my way up. I don't have facilities to cast aluminum, so I'll make larger machine parts from epoxy granite and scrapyard metals

EDIT: the gingery books are incredible and I've gotten some great ideas for a shaper there. The other thing thats been very helpful is looking up early machine tools
 (pre 1900) Those machines are incredibly elegant, and tackle some of the same issues I'll be facing, without resorting to a few thousand pounds of cast iron


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## mikey (Oct 24, 2019)

G Jones said:


> So my first question is this- if you had to build a machine shop from scratch on a desert island, with only a surface plate and gauges to reference, how would you start?



You would be surprised at how much can be done with a hacksaw, files and an idea. However, if I had to choose a single machine to begin a shop with, it would be a metal lathe. I suggest you speak to everyone you know and tell them you need a lathe but cannot afford to buy it. You can even put an ad up on Kijii explaining your situation and asking for a free lathe. There may be some guy who has one sitting in a corner that he doesn't use and he may just give it to you. Granted, its a long shot but there are a LOT of used machines out there that are just sitting.


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

Thanks for the idea Mikey; I'll definitely do that, unfortunately Victoria just isn't the sort of place that has a history of industry. I"m going to do my best, but my other constraint is SIZE. I'm working on a big desk in my bachelor suite apartment, so much more than a sherline or a taig is going to be too much. 

I'm mostly going to be working in aluminum and brass, making small gadgets, trinkets, etc.


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## mikey (Oct 24, 2019)

Yeah, I was thinking a Sherline or Taig would fit the bill. 

I just found a nearly brand new Sherline lathe and mill that was sitting on someone's patio for who knows how long. They were rusted and neglected. I had to pay to buy them ($600) but this was for an essentially new set of machines and accessories that retailed for about $2500. There may be something similar sitting in somebody's closet that is just waiting for you but if you don't ask then you won't get. I'll cross my fingers for you, buddy, and welcome to HM!


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

ANOTHER QUESTION!!!     

What is a good, simple program for 2d blueprints and eventually 3d modelling? I've taken classes in drafting, and can do just about anything with pen and papers, but there are some convenciences with CAD that are hard to miss. To give you an idea of things, when I took classes we learned in VectorWorks,, which was, even at the time, fairly out of date.


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

I really don't want to be complaining about my situation mikey, but just to give you a picture.

I make 1180 a months as my government disability check.
900 goes to rent and bills right away.
200 goes to food.
I then have 80 dollars for my entire months spending, including unforseen ****.

A 600 sherline would require that I save every single dollar for around a year.

Or I could get a 50$ bucket of 2 part epoxy, and 10-20$ in scrap aluminum.
Hell I could probably get the scrap free.

My greatest weapon in this experiment is free time.

Soon I'll be living in low income housing and things will be much more feasible.
Unfortunately rent and food in Victoria is horrifically over priced.


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## mikey (Oct 24, 2019)

Thanks for sharing but I was in no way suggesting that you spend what little income you have on a lathe. I was just trying to say that there are machines out there and I'm hoping someone will hear of your situation and either give you a machine for free or at very little cost. I've had it happen to me several times so I will cross my fingers for you.


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

I get that and no worries!

Im going to put feelers out there but I think for me half the fun will be building the tools themselves.


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## matthewsx (Oct 24, 2019)

So, the answer to your question is still a lathe.

Do ask around to see if you can get any pieces that will help you along the way for free, it's probably possible to turn an old drill press casting into a lathe headstock. Epoxy granite is definitely an option but getting it right is challenging from the research I've done. It's probably more likely to take an old cast iron wood lathe bed and convert that to a metal lathe. The problem with the Gingery tools from what I can tell is casting everything in aluminum doesn't give the strength and rigidity of iron.

If you want to go high tech look into linear rails and ballscrews, that's the path I took. Deals can be had on eBay and using 80/20 extrusions gives a good amount of flexibility. You might even be able to find something similar as part of discarded office furniture, cube office walls have a surprising amount of metal in them. 

I'm sure your local classifieds has a "free" section so check that every morning and pick up anything you think will be useful. If you can fix stuff and sell it for a profit that's money that can go into your projects. People are always discarding treadmills and other exercise equipment and that's a great source of not only motors but structural elements too. Any metal you don't end up using can also be recycled for extra cash.

Finally I would reach out to some of the other forum members who live on your island. They might be willing to help you with your projects if they have machining capability you don't have. If nothing else you can discuss your latest projects over a cup of tea....

Cheers,

John


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## ThinWoodsman (Oct 24, 2019)

You might want to post in the Wanted section of the local CL (or an equivalent). Say you're looking for broken machinery (lathe, drill press, etc) that you will repair and use yourself. If you live in a rural enough area, you could also spread the word around and see what happens - never know when a real estate agent will spot a pile of rusted metal in the corner, and call you to come take it away.


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## ericc (Oct 24, 2019)

If you are starting small, and doing a lot of bench work, I would recommend a good set of files.  Clickspring has a great Youtube video.  It would help to have a forge.  It would help even more to have a hammer and an anvil.  But, if you are starting from scratch, you definitely need to consider files.

How many years do you have?


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## DavidR8 (Oct 24, 2019)

@G Jones I’ll keep my eyes open for you also. 


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## Al 1 (Oct 24, 2019)

G,  Check out this lathe:    
*Small Lathe Built Secretly in a Japanese Prison Camp - 1949*





imgur.com/a/mULb...


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## T Bredehoft (Oct 24, 2019)

I have a small Taig lathe, work about 4" diameter, at most 6 inches long, compete with milling attachments. It's yours for freight.  I'm in  Ohio, will be meeting later this week with a good friend from Ontario. I can have him ship it to you, If you will pay his cost to ship. I'll box it, weight is maybe 10 lbs.

This lathe has a collet chuck, I don't know if any other chucks can be adapted or not. There are some collets with it, more can be purchased, but max size is probably 1/4 to 5/16 inch. It has only one speed, (110 volt)

In all honesty, it was once a Taig lathe, the motor is not original, but the body of the lathe and the milling attachments are all standard. I see (online) that Taig does offer a 3 jaw chuck, don't know enough to say if this lathe can adapt one or not.

Let me know by Friday night if you will accept this offer.

Tom Bredehoft
seventy four zero seven hundred forty  five, ten fourteen


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## mikey (Oct 24, 2019)

Wow, Tom. That is so generous of you!! Your gesture is what makes this place so special.

G, if you decide to accept Tom's amazing offer, let me know. I will grind a 1/4" general purpose turning tool, a knife tool and threading tool for you. Just need your address.


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## f350ca (Oct 24, 2019)

If you were closer, I just gave a home made lathe to my nephew for a bar ornament, Wasn't much to look at but would be a start. 
Tom, Im going west early next summer, plan to go to Victoria, if your Ontario friend is close I can haul it out.

Greg


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## DavidR8 (Oct 24, 2019)

I can contribute some for shipping the Taig. 


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

Oh my goodness, I'm so incredibly shocked. Really lost for words, Thank you sooo much! I'll message you with shipping details.

Really so grateful!

I found a nameless micrometer at a pawn shop today; They thought that it was a box o staples and had it up for 5$. Its nothing exceptional, probably made in China, but I tested it against some gauge blocks they had and it was pretty accurate!


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

"Do ask around to see if you can get any pieces that will help you along the way for free, it's probably possible to turn an old drill press casting into a lathe headstock. Epoxy granite is definitely an option but getting it right is challenging from the research I've done. It's probably more likely to take an old cast iron wood lathe bed and convert that to a metal lathe. The problem with the Gingery tools from what I can tell is casting everything in aluminum doesn't give the strength and rigidity of iron."

Fortunately before my accident I was a partner in a fairly high end modified concrete casting company (these guys there https://szolyd.com)
I have a lot of experience with mold making and precision mold casting
I"m interested to see how and where I can apply it to my design choices.


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

You guys are really incredible. I'm so glad I stumbled upon this forum.

I have a quick question or two

1) what kind of steel are drill bits? Do they generally have enough carbon to anneal, work, then reharden?
I'm planning to work on learning hand graving while I get my stuff together. Just a hammer and some gravers, easy enough!

2) I totally agree with the suggestions that I start with some good files, though, for now I think I'll try to ind a decent set o needle files. The question is this: I would like to make and chisel my own larger files, so, what would be the best grade of steel to do this with? I know this sounds crazy and I should just buy some, but part of what I'm doing is seeing how far I can go really making everything I want to use.

I don't know if I mentioned this, but I have access to a glassblowing studio, large torches, and kilns, so forging some chisels and other similar elements should be easy enough. I'm keeping my eyes open for a little piece of railway to make a jury rigged anvil.

Last but not least, ERICC - by "how many years do you have" you  mean metalworking experience? Its an interesting question - I've been woodworking since my father decided I was old enough to use a knife. Maybe 8 years old?
I've been blowing glass since 2002 or 3 I think, Though I guess I cant do that too much anymore with the injury. Also I've been working with metal casually on and off throughout the years here and there informally to get projects done. So no years but technically also a fair bit of casual experience? Oh I also did a few years of silversmithing.


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## G Jones (Oct 24, 2019)

Also, I thought I might try going around to some of the machine shops around town and offer to sweep floors for free for an hour or two a week. It will help me to move around a bit, and I bet I could pick up a lot of information just chatting and watching people there. Plus I could probably harvest some real sweet scrap!


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## Aaron_W (Oct 25, 2019)

G Jones said:


> Also, I thought I might try going around to some of the machine shops around town and offer to sweep floors for free for an hour or two a week. It will help me to move around a bit, and I bet I could pick up a lot of information just chatting and watching people there. Plus I could probably harvest some real sweet scrap!



If you have a metal supply in the area you can often get cut offs, miscuts and irregular pieces for very little. I'm in a small town and I have a metal supplier, they sell their scrap steel for $0.65 /lb ($1.08 / kg in Canada money). I've gotten quite a bit of metal for small projects very cheap this way. 

I just went there today to get the stock to build a welding cart. I left with 100lbs of misc scrap tubing and treadplate. The only thing I paid full price for was a 2x4 ft sheet of 10 gauge. A couple of months ago I got a nice piece of 1/2" steel plate that has become my welding table. 

Most of the scrap is essentially new metal, just in lengths to short for them to want to deal with, but often perfect for hobby stuff.


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## mikey (Oct 25, 2019)

If I were going to make gravers I would just grind some 1/8" square HSS tool bits. They are already hardened and you simply need to put them in a handle. Not only is it easier, they work very, very well. Of course, you have to sharpen them but there is a lot of info on doing that.

I don't know what kind of steel is best for files. If I were going to try it though, I would write Michael Ariou of Ariou Toolworks and ask his advice. He makes the finest hand-cut wood files in the world and knows what he's talking about.


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## matthewsx (Oct 25, 2019)

G Jones said:


> "Do ask around to see if you can get any pieces that will help you along the way for free, it's probably possible to turn an old drill press casting into a lathe headstock. Epoxy granite is definitely an option but getting it right is challenging from the research I've done. It's probably more likely to take an old cast iron wood lathe bed and convert that to a metal lathe. The problem with the Gingery tools from what I can tell is casting everything in aluminum doesn't give the strength and rigidity of iron."
> 
> Fortunately before my accident I was a partner in a fairly high end modified concrete casting company (these guys there https://szolyd.com)
> I have a lot of experience with mold making and precision mold casting
> I"m interested to see how and where I can apply it to my design choices.



Looks like some really cool stuff there

If you come up with some hobby level designs you may even be able to have stuff cast and sell it to make a few bucks. I'm thinking a small lathe bed with headstock and tailstock castings, kit form for people to complete themselves using linear rails and off-the-shelf components.

The Gingery concept is cool but if somebody updated it, and offered castings it might be great for us hobby folks. Working with the linear rail and ballscrew components that are available pretty cheap today I'm convinced that building accurate machines is totally within reach. Given the state of composite technology, rigidity without cast iron should be possible for a reasonable cost at low volumes.

I'll be very interested to see where you go from here since it sounds like you have a lot of capability for designing some pretty cool stuff. I know lots of hobby folks would be interested in building their own machines if they could get good castings (just look at the work people go through with new mini-machines from China).

I'm just thinking out loud here as we tend to do on the forum but I would definitely encourage you to look into what it would take to produce a short run of mini-lathe castings with the technology your old company uses.



Cheers,

John


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## matthewsx (Oct 25, 2019)

G Jones said:


> Also, I thought I might try going around to some of the machine shops around town and offer to sweep floors for free for an hour or two a week. It will help me to move around a bit, and I bet I could pick up a lot of information just chatting and watching people there. Plus I could probably harvest some real sweet scrap!



I get my offcuts from a local shop and I don't even sweep their floor (I do pay for them though).


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## ericc (Oct 25, 2019)

G Jones said:


> You guys are really incredible. I'm so glad I stumbled upon this forum.
> 
> I have a quick question or two
> 
> ...



What I mean is how many years do you plan to devote to starting from scratch?  It is a good idea to remain flexible and not have too many preconceptions in the future else one can burn out.  If you find some junk tools, you can skip a lot of tedious parts and jump start your progress.  You have to be very careful not to pick up some old seized junk power hacksaw and leave it in your front yard, staring at it with a whole bunch of grand plans, only to discover that several years have gone by and it hasn't cut an inch of metal.

As for drill bits, it is very helpful to go to garage sales and buy old junk stuff.  Then, learn to spark test.  There are several lessons on Youtube.  Don't bother trying to anneal and heat treat HSS.  It is beyond your abilities and facilities.  Just trust me on this one.  Really.  Instead learn to grind it into effective shapes for cutting metal.  There are plenty of resources here.  Old drill bits from the era of blacksmiths and cheap not so old imported drill bits are made out of plain carbon steel.  These can be annealed and heat treated.  A good machinist can spot these just by the way they wear, but if you have any cheap grinder, the spark test will identify them immediately.  Save them in a small container.  They can be heat treated with a propane torch.

It is hard to scrounge good steel for files.  The best scrap steel for making files is old files.  Some files are case hardened.  A good blacksmith will be able to spot them by how they wear or by familiarity with the name.  Again, the spark test will tell you immediately.  Kelly Cupples or the New Jersey Steel Baron can sell you plain carbon tool steel.  It is great, but it costs money, and you may not like that.  If you are afraid of money, and you cannot find decent simple carbon steel, go to that video I mentioned by Clickspring.  It is a classic.  Highly recommended. It's one of the only videos that I've watched more than once.


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## G Jones (Oct 25, 2019)

ericc - If this keeps me busy or ten years I'd be delighted. I've wanted my own little shop space for years, and only recently in the last year have my issues with disability and housing started to stabilize.

As to the heat treatment of steel - I have access to very large oxy fuel glassblowing torches and high heat electric kilns, so I don't think its totally out of reach, even if its something I should maybe worry about later.

I've seen a couple clickspring videos, they're great! I'll go work through them.

EDIT- If, after a bit of trouble, I find I can't get my hands on decent metal to make files to the sizes I'd like, I can always just go buy a bunch of old Nichols files for a few bucks.

What I really need to do is find some reading material and learn about the different types of steel.


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## T Bredehoft (Oct 25, 2019)

If you can find reasonably an old copy of "Machinery's Handbook" it's all in there.


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## matthewsx (Oct 25, 2019)

Another more "accessible" book is Carroll Smith's "Engineer to Win."

Yes it's about building race cars but it starts out with red dirt getting hard after a fire and goes all the way through modern (at least as of the time he wrote it) materials. Lots of great information about composition, strength, heat treatment and how to join stuff together so it doesn't come apart.

http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/ngner2win.html

I have both this and machinery's but Smith's is the one I've read cover to cover, the handbook is more a reference for me.


John


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## G Jones (Oct 25, 2019)

Thanks guys! I'll check the library. I'm going to work on some hand tool stuff for the next while, then start up another thread were I'll sort of "journal" my way though small successes and large failures 

So far I've started drawing up a simple dial indicator that can only measure on one axis, (more that one would be prohibitively difficult) , a rotary tool made from a sewing machine I got for near to nothing, and a pneumatic engraving tool based on a jackhammer design (miniaturized). I take great enjoyment from hand drafting.


Oh! and good news! I just got an offer today to move into some lower income housing downtown! It'll save me a few hundred dollars a month and I'll actually end up with a little more space! I'll still have to be very careful with purchases, and still will want to build most stuff, as, in a way, building beautiful tools is half the journey for me.


EDIT: trying to work my way through the steps to allow a "piston" to reciprocate back and forth in a small hand tool is one HELL of a logic puzzle!


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