# In praise of HM



## markba633csi (Jun 26, 2017)

Went to another forum to get some help repairing one of my cars (the forum shall remain anonymous)
and the attitude I ran into there- whoa- this one guy in particular was flaming me for asking "dumb" questions about a control module- didn't even read my post completely.  I could see he was probably a "professional" mechanic who trolls the auto forums looking for people to belittle.
It seems they don't monitor some forums for behavior as well as others. It's a relief to come back here. Wow.
Mark S.


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## ch2co (Jun 26, 2017)

I have to agree wholeheartedly with you this, markba633cdi. I've been a member of this group for a little over 4 years now, and am very pleased with
the quality, content, and expertise of its members and the judicious oversight of its moderators.  It is obvious that many of the many "forums" out there
are poorly moderated if moderated at all. We are a very fortunate bunch of guys and gals.

CHuck the grumpy old guy


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## markba633csi (Jun 26, 2017)

I think I understand the mind-set; this particular person was a "module-swapper", just put a new one in, don't worry what's inside of it.  Me, I want to know WHY it failed and WHAT failed so that maybe I could repair it better than the original designers made it.
It also seems that when criticizing the design of a vehicle or it's parts,  people take it personally if they happen to own the very same vehicle.  I think that was happening here as well.  It's different with machine tools.  Machinists are quite used to making and fixing; correcting design's weaknesses is part of the fun. And learning new things.
My O2 sensor's worth LOL
Mark S.
ps like it says in the South Bend "how to run a lathe" book: "keep your eye on the man ahead of you-you may be asked to take his place some day"


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## woodchucker (Jun 26, 2017)

Let me add to that. Some guys think theirs is the only way to do something.
Often someone comes up with a way that works just as well. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. But it works.
Sometimes it's downright wrong or dangerous.
But those guys that think their's is the only way and get all bent out of shape if you don't do it their way is what gets me. Isn't there room for more ways. Do we all have to follow that persons path to be capable or good at what we do?


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## markba633csi (Jun 26, 2017)

Yep. And another thing just occurred to me:  some people can't stand the idea of changing a design from stock.  But stock and reliable are sometimes mutually exclusive.
Mark
ps ask me how I know- I have an Alfa.  Is it running now?
No


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## tweinke (Jun 26, 2017)

Being in the auto repair industry for far longer then I care to admit I have found that there are some that like to be that way toward others and its a shame. I've always tried to help if I can but that does come to an end if the person with the question suddenly knows more the me, as in why did you ask if you already know more about it then me.  If I come across a bad module I darn well make sure I know why it failed so it doesn't happen again. As far what is inside that module and exactly how it works, the manufacturer whos cars I have made a career of repairing doesn't ever tell you exactly what is hiding in the box and you only need to know what inputs and outputs to expect. With common sense and some electronics experience you probably could fix a lot of module issues but for me at $100 plus dollars an hour not so much.


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## tweinke (Jun 26, 2017)

And don't forget there's always more then one way to skin a cat!


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## markba633csi (Jun 26, 2017)

Shhh my cat might be listening


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## Silverbullet (Jun 27, 2017)

Here kitty kitty. Why back in the stone age when I was doing my apprenticeship I worked with many different machinist , tool makers . I was the guy who watched and learned , but some I asked why and how. Most guys running lathe use micrometers for all there measurements. An old Scotsman ,, Alex,, used the Mic for the first od, from there he used a depth vernier caliper. All the steps under cuts ,grooves. Another machinist taught how to use trammels for much more then most would even think about . All those attachments for trammels and large calipers are usable for measuring and layout. Machinist today most never even heard of ball trammels or how to use them. Sure gave me a big boost in my career back then.


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## silence dogood (Jun 27, 2017)

Silverbullet said:


> Here kitty kitty. Why back in the stone age when I was doing my apprenticeship I worked with many different machinist , tool makers . I was the guy who watched and learned , but some I asked why and how. Most guys running lathe use micrometers for all there measurements. An old Scotsman ,, Alex,, used the Mic for the first od, from there he used a depth vernier caliper. All the steps under cuts ,grooves. Another machinist taught how to use trammels for much more then most would even think about . All those attachments for trammels and large calipers are usable for measuring and layout. Machinist today most never even heard of ball trammels or how to use them. Sure gave me a big boost in my career back then.


 This is one of the really fine things about HM.  I'm always learning something.   Silverbullet, I am one of those that never heard of ball trammels.  I looked it up and now I know what they look like.   But how do you use them?


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## T Bredehoft (Jun 28, 2017)

I found a couple of balls in a tool box I bought at auction. Figured out they were to be used with a trammel of some sort, have used them a few times in the past 25 years, glad I had them. 
In use one goes on the end of a trammel pin, then goes into a hole so you can scribe a circle around a hole.


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## Groundhog (Jun 28, 2017)

silence dogood said:


> This is one of the really fine things about HM.  I'm always learning something.   Silverbullet, I am one of those that never heard of ball trammels.  I looked it up and now I know what they look like.   But how do you use them?


Just like _silence dogood_ I had to do  a search for ball trammels. Found some pictures but was unable (admittedly a low effort search) to find their purpose or how to use them. Can anyone educate me/us. Either via video/text link or via an example? Thanks


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## Silverbullet (Jun 30, 2017)

silence dogood said:


> This is one of the really fine things about HM.  I'm always learning something.   Silverbullet, I am one of those that never heard of ball trammels.  I looked it up and now I know what they look like.   But how do you use them?


Trammels can be used lots of ways , like inside and outside calipers , hermaphrodite calipers also. With combinations of ball on one and scriber point or in or out caliper leg. If you need to layout bolt hole circles and have a start hole the ball end would be centered using the ball the other can be set to scribe or to measure between holes . They use to sell a vernier style trammels but with a good scale you can locate within .005  really easy. Extremely versatile tool ,but with dros there almost of no use. But for me I can say ill keep my set ill know when I do a layout where everything goes. I used mine on many 12foot dia. Tanks and lids , even on missiles for the government , u2 style rockets were fun to build . There lugs were titanium with specified finishes. I think about two thousand at a time . Even the fins had tight specs. YUPP I learned well to use trammels l sure wish I could go back in time just to thank the old guys who taught me. Don't think everything new is always best , old may still be better. Of course you have to use the brain to work them not push a button.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 30, 2017)

It's a sad state of affairs, but one of my current diagnostic tools for unfamiliar problems is google. Yes, there is a ton of self-appointed experts with an attitude out there.  They *know* the answer, and as soon as you ask questions beyond their understanding (doesn't take long), they go on the offensive.


 Mark, ever heard of Team.net?


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## silence dogood (Jun 30, 2017)

Silverbullet said:


> Trammels can be used lots of ways , like inside and outside calipers , hermaphrodite calipers also. With combinations of ball on one and scriber point or in or out caliper leg. If you need to layout bolt hole circles and have a start hole the ball end would be centered using the ball the other can be set to scribe or to measure between holes . They use to sell a vernier style trammels but with a good scale you can locate within .005  really easy. Extremely versatile tool ,but with dros there almost of no use. But for me I can say ill keep my set ill know when I do a layout where everything goes. I used mine on many 12foot dia. Tanks and lids , even on missiles for the government , u2 style rockets were fun to build . There lugs were titanium with specified finishes. I think about two thousand at a time . Even the fins had tight specs. YUPP I learned well to use trammels l sure wish I could go back in time just to thank the old guys who taught me. Don't think everything new is always best , old may still be better. Of course you have to use the brain to work them not push a button.


 I learn how to use calipers, even the  hermaphrodites. many years ago in high school.  What a simple thing is just adding a ball to one of the pointers.  I'm  beginning to get the idea on how to use them and I think I will.  May have to get or make them.  Thanks Silverbullet. I learned something really big today.


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## markba633csi (Jul 1, 2017)

Randy: Yes I checked out team.net seems to be mostly British I didn't see any Alfa threads
Mark


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## RandyWilson (Jul 1, 2017)

It was a long shot.  Team.net was started long ago by a bunch of autocrossers, an offshoot from a usenet group... long before "internet" was a household word.  One of the founders was a Mark S from Cal. I occasionally bump into oldtimers from there on the assorted marque forums.


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## Desolus (Aug 2, 2017)

there's not a more stupid person than a smart person.

from Wikipedia

"These are Cipolla's five fundamental laws of stupidity:


_Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation._
_The probability that a certain person (will) be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person._
_A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses._
_Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake._
_A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person."_


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## brino (Aug 2, 2017)

Desolus said:


> These are Cipolla's five fundamental laws of stupidity:



Thanks for that....never seen it before.
Do you think it would all fit on a t-shirt? Or maybe a sign for the shop.......hmmm.
-brino


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## Desolus (Aug 3, 2017)

brino said:


> Thanks for that....never seen it before.
> Do you think it would all fit on a t-shirt? Or maybe a sign for the shop.......hmmm.
> -brino


 yes, I in fact have a tshirt with the laws on it.


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