# Restoring (hopefully) my new Smart and Brown SAB



## Ben17484 (Jul 14, 2022)

Hi All,

Pretty new to the forum. A bit of background on me - I've no background in engineering at all, but I do have a thousands of hours on YouTube watching the machining greats and a positive attitude 

All joking aside, I owned a Warco 250V lathe (I think an English badged version the same as a Precision Matthews lathe) and a Warco WM18 Mill. I never had a lot of time to do much with them other than play around so I sold them a while ago. I've now got some more time on my hands and liked the idea of restoring an old lathe rather than buying a new one. I like the style of the old lathes and build quality. I would have liked to get a Colchester or Harrison lathe, but they were just too big to fit in my workshop. As access, I only have a single doorway down a small alley way to get to my workshop, so the bigger lathes were out of the question. After searching around for a while I settled on the idea of getting either a Boxford or Smart and Brown lathe (both of which are English built Southbend 9). After some searching, I found one that was being sold buy a retired engineer who used this as his "home lathe" (whilst having much bigger equipment at work). He was demolishing the shed in his garden and needed everything gone. Whatever I didn't take was going to the scrap yard. So I got all of this:










there's a bunch more that I've not photo'd. Not all of this stuff fits my lathe (or I can use on anything), but I wanted to save it from the scrap yard.

This will take me quite a while to restore I'd imagine (I've kids and a job etc that take most of my time), but I'm looking forward to it.


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## DavidR8 (Jul 14, 2022)

Welcome Ben, that's quite a collection!


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## markba633csi (Jul 14, 2022)

Nice pile of loot!


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## brino (Jul 15, 2022)

Nice Haul, Congratulations!

Brian


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## WCraig (Jul 15, 2022)

Keith Appleton on Youtube appears to have the same lathe as you.  He has done a few videos related to it:



			https://www.youtube.com/c/keithappleton/search?query=smart%20and%20brown
		


You might pick up a few useful nuggets.

Craig


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## Beckerkumm (Jul 15, 2022)

There are a few guys in the UK who are familiar with Smart Brown and Chris Hallybone at Brachand sells some parts.  The Smart Brown forum at groups I.O. isn't very active but you might get some help there.  Dave


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## vtcnc (Jul 15, 2022)

Is that a tilting/rotating milling attachment for the lathe?!? If so, I have to say that is a first for me!


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## Ben17484 (Jul 15, 2022)

vtcnc said:


> Is that a tilting/rotating milling attachment for the lathe?!? If so, I have to say that is a first for me!



No, it’s a universal (tilt/swivel) vice for a milling machine. The guy I bought the lathe from just wanted rid of everything he had, so I only paid for the lathe and he just said anything else I wanted I could just take. The universal vices are not cheap either, so I was happy to find he had one he didn’t want. 


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## Ben17484 (Jul 16, 2022)

WCraig said:


> Keith Appleton on Youtube appears to have the same lathe as you. He has done a few videos related to it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Craig, but his appears to be a Smart and Brown 1024 model, mine in a SAB. Looks like an interesting channel though. I’ll give it a watch. 


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## Ben17484 (Jul 18, 2022)

Before and after in some a clean up of some of the items that came with the lathe. I’ve cleaned up a bunch of other stuff like taps, dies, chuck jaws, reducers and a QCTP as well. I’m going to refurbish the universal vice and the tapping head and once they’re done I’ll get cracking on the lathe itself!





















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## Ben17484 (Jul 20, 2022)

Cleaning down and priming the top of the cabinet 














Paint will follow soon


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## Ben17484 (Jul 20, 2022)

Stripped down the lathe























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## Ben17484 (Jul 20, 2022)

Painted the drip tray / lathe mount. I went with Reseeda Green machinery paint. Can’t remember where I found that exact colour, but i knew I wanted a green paint. I really like the colour. I’m excited to see how the rest of the lathe will look with this colour. 







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## Beckerkumm (Jul 20, 2022)

Very nice.  My 1024 is a very heavy build except for the apron and tailstock which more delicate.  While your lathe is smaller, the apron looks to be proportionately heavier in design.  My experience ( not a scientific sample ) is that although S and B hardened their ways, they seem softer than some ( Monarch and Holbrook come to mind ).  How do yours appear?  Dave


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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

I’ve been pretty bad at taking pictures and updating this thread, but progress is being made

First coat of paint on some of the panels, tail stock and bed. Instead of removing the data plates I tried to mask them up, but clearly did a Bad job! I’ll have to clean up the overspray. 







I had the apron apart and cleaned out what looked like 70 years of chips and grime!






I started getting things lined up on the bench to give me some motivation (my hands have been very greasy hence the grease marks all over the new paint! This will wipe off)






The saddle has also been painted and the apron also (albeit very badly) 

Other than the headstock, everything else has been fully torn down and cleaned up. There was a lot to clean out! I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the first time this lathe has been fully apart in its 70 year lifetime. 

I’ve come to realise that taking my time and doing a perfectionist job on this is not what I want right now. I must have 30 hours in the tear down, cleaning and painting so far and to do a perfect job I think I’d have 30 more (which with two kids, job, life etc is more than I have time for now). I’m now aiming at ‘presentable’ and fully cleaned and functional rather than perfect so I can actually get on and use the lathe. At some point in the future I’d like to buy another old lathe (hopefully a Colchester student or Smart and Brown 1024) and restore it to a higher level, but I’ll do that whilst having this lathe to use. 

So anyway, the clean up will continue (and I’ll document in this thread) and then I’ll get to using the lathe and then at some point in the future (when I have a second usable lathe) I’ll give this the time and effort it deserves to restore it properly. I’d also like to change the colour as I’m not 100% on the Reseeda green. There’s a few greys I think I prefer. 

It was in this condition when I got it, so it’ll be way better when I’ve done this first round of cleaning up! 







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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

The part where the pulley release lever would go is broken. At the moment I’m a bit stumped as to how to fix it. I’ll take a look around and see if I can find the same part from a Southbend 9 as that’s essentially what my lathe is. 











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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2022)

To me, that broken part looks like a candidate for brazing.  A Youtuber that I enjoy is based in the UK but I have no idea how close or far he is from you.  Nonetheless, he has done several videos on repairing parts:



			https://www.youtube.com/c/doubleboost/search?query=brazing%20cast%20iron
		


He seems like a friendly guy so you might try reaching out to him.  Even if he can't help, he might be able to suggest someone who can.

Craig


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## Beckerkumm (Jul 28, 2022)

Don't apologize.  The first time is always more about learning than perfection and it takes a working lathe to restore a lathe so your approach makes sense.  Take what you learned for the next project.  As nice as the little lathe is, a full time consuming rehab is better suited for a bigger lathe.  

In the UK, I'd avoid the Colchester look eventually for a 1024, Holbrook C10, or C13,  CVA, or even Hembrug if you want a machine of 10EE quality that justifies the effort.  Those  machines are very reasonable there compared to what a 10ee goes for here in US.  Dave


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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> Don't apologize. The first time is always more about learning than perfection and it takes a working lathe to restore a lathe so your approach makes sense. Take what you learned for the next project. As nice as the little lathe is, a full time consuming rehab is better suited for a bigger lathe.
> 
> In the UK, I'd avoid the Colchester look eventually for a 1024, Holbrook C10, or C13, CVA, or even Hembrug if you want a machine of 10EE quality that justifies the effort. Those machines are very reasonable there compared to what a 10ee goes for here in US. Dave



Yeah, I’m treating this as a learning experience. The lathe will all be completely cleaned, greased, oiled and functional, it’s the aesthetics that’ll be ‘ok but not great’. The lathe restorations that I’ve been reading on here all seem to be peoples second (or even third) lathes so that they still have access to a working lathe whilst they restore one and are therefore not in a rush. I like the phrase ‘it takes a lathe to restore a lathe’  I’ve a Mill arriving on Monday as well, so I’ll be fully equipped in the future to restore to a better standard. 

I’d love a Smart and Brown 1024. They are pretty reasonably priced over here. I do t access to get something of that size in to my workshop at my current house. In the future when we move house and have better access, I’ll definitely be getting something of that size 


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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

WCraig said:


> To me, that broken part looks like a candidate for brazing. A Youtuber that I enjoy is based in the UK but I have no idea how close or far he is from you. Nonetheless, he has done several videos on repairing parts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Craig. I don’t have the broken off part though, so I’m not sure brazing would work, would it? I’m guessing I’ll need to remake the part of buy a replacement?


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## wachuko (Jul 28, 2022)

Great progress!

Do you have a photo of what the part looks like?  Trying to visualize what it is...


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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

wachuko said:


> Great progress!
> 
> Do you have a photo of what the part looks like? Trying to visualize what it is...



Thanks  Still plenty more to do, but I’m getting closer. 


It’s this handle that’s used to slacken the pulley assembly to move the belts to a different pulley. 








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## brino (Jul 28, 2022)

Ben17484 said:


> I’ve come to realise that taking my time and doing a perfectionist job on this is not what I want right now. I must have 30 hours in the tear down, cleaning and painting so far and to do a perfect job I think I’d have 30 more (which with two kids, job, life etc is more than I have time for now). I’m now aiming at ‘presentable’ and fully cleaned and functional rather than perfect so I can actually get on and use the lathe.



It has been said here that "Perfect is the enemy of done".

Brian


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## wachuko (Jul 28, 2022)

brino said:


> It has been said here that "Perfect is the enemy of done".
> 
> Brian


I learned, the hard way from this forum, that "Better" is also the enemy of "Good"


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## wachuko (Jul 28, 2022)

Ben17484 said:


> Thanks Craig. I don’t have the broken off part though, so I’m not sure brazing would work, would it? I’m guessing I’ll need to remake the part of buy a replacement?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But looking at it now... you should be able to make a handle and attach it to it...


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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

wachuko said:


> But looking at it now... you should be able to make a handle and attach it to it...



I think the issue is that the threaded part that the handle should screw in to is snapped in half. The handle should be easy enough to make, but making the part that the handle screws in to (the lever mechanism in the pulley assembly) could be harder. I’ll try and take it apart some time soon to see what the part I need to remake looks like. 


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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2022)

Ben17484 said:


> Thanks Craig. I don’t have the broken off part though, so I’m not sure brazing would work, would it? I’m guessing I’ll need to remake the part of buy a replacement?


Were it me, I think I'd braze on a piece that would then be drilled and tapped to receive the handle.  I'd cut or grind away the threaded remnants before starting.  But I'm just an armchair quarterback (or is that a weird North American idiom to you?).

Craig


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## Jake M (Jul 28, 2022)

brino said:


> It has been said here that "Perfect is the enemy of done".
> 
> Brian





wachuko said:


> I learned, the hard way from this forum, that "Better" is also the enemy of "Good"



Good stuff.  So true.


Ben17484 said:


> It’s this handle that’s used to slacken the pulley assembly to move the belts to a different pulley.




That looks a lot different than my South Bend 9.....  I dunno what that means.  I dunno what models or vintages were licenced in whatever ways...
Anyhow, that cam/lever that's broken, while brazing would be an excellent repair IF you had the missing parts, actually looks pretty simple.  But I wonder, what if you focused not on the break, but on the whole part?  You've got two "pins" whose axis' should be parallel to each other, but no particular spacing is required, so long as it's kinda close. two widths that should be narrow enough not to pinch, but a little wiggle room won't make it not function.  You've got a lever projecting off of it that has to be kind of "about that way", but again, not perfect (or not even close, as long as you tried a little bit), and you'd have a fully functional part.  If one had a milling machine in their future, that could be carved from a single block of steel, but it'd be wasteful.  Or a couple of pieces and welded.  Or one piece for the cam (the part still on the lathe), and drilled and tapped for a separate steel handle.  So many options, but I'd suspect that until the missing piece or a proper replacement present themselves it might be a lot less difficult to remake a functional part than to repair the existing one.

If you do go that route, don't forget to keep your eye out for the correct stuff.   The best way to make something permanent, is to call it good enough for now.


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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

WCraig said:


> Were it me, I think I'd braze on a piece that would then be drilled and tapped to receive the handle. I'd cut or grind away the threaded remnants before starting. But I'm just an armchair quarterback (or is that a weird North American idiom to you?).
> 
> Craig



I’m not too familiar with brazing. I’ll take a look in to it a bit more (I’ve seen some YouTube stuff, but not much)

I get the arm chair quarterback reference - we get a lot of American TV over here, so it’s come up a fair few times 


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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

Jake M said:


> Good stuff. So true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m leaning towards making a new part to do the job. I took a look tonight at it and I think I can quite easily get the cam/lever off and essentially try to copy it. My new Mill arrives on Monday, so it feels like a fun project that’d help me learn a lot. I’ll get the piece off sometime soon and take a picture and post it up 


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## Ben17484 (Jul 28, 2022)

I decided to get the lathe back together albeit not completely painted. Getting it back together and up and running (with a quick bodge to get it kind of fixed to the bench so I could run it up) gave me a bit of a boost in motivation as I could see the end goal. I think when it was completely disassembled all over my workshop it felt too far away from being usable. I think getting it up and running and then taking pieces off one at a time to get painted and finished will be easier for me as I’ll always know that I’m only an hour or so away from being able to use it again. 








The next job is to get the tray/mount sorted. The lathe was on a cabinet when I bought it, but I didn’t have space for the cabinet and it was in such bad condition that it wouldn’t have been easy to get it back to usable condition. The seller plasma cut the top off and left the first 20cm or so of the base. I need to cut these off to get it flat so it can go on my bench






I’ve taken an angle drinker around it all and none of the edges are now attached. The issue seems to be that the base/legs are attached to a plate that runs flat against the tray (does that make sense?) and getting that off has stumped me






So I’ve got to get the two flat plates that seem to be welded together apart. 

I don’t think I’ve explained that very well…. I’ll try again in the morning 


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## Ben17484 (Jul 29, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> Very nice. My 1024 is a very heavy build except for the apron and tailstock which more delicate. While your lathe is smaller, the apron looks to be proportionately heavier in design. My experience ( not a scientific sample ) is that although S and B hardened their ways, they seem softer than some ( Monarch and Holbrook come to mind ). How do yours appear? Dave



Sorry, I missed this. How do I tell if the ways are hardened?


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## Beckerkumm (Jul 29, 2022)

If you can feel any ridge or hollow with your finger or fingernail, you have some wear.  There may be some that you can't feel.  You can put a dial on the way or flat and set the stand on the carriage and see how much the dial moves as you traverse the length of the bed.  The last 6" of a bed will read fairly close to the first inch or two with a hollow in between.  Dave


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## Ben17484 (Aug 3, 2022)

There’s been a colour change! I wasn’t really liking the green on this lathe. I think this green is used on quite a few lathes and I think it looks good on them (my Warco was this colour), I just didn’t like it on this lathe. I’ve seen a bunch of lathe restorations on machines of this age that go grey, and look great. So I made the change. I also wasn’t happy with the quality of job I did when painting the green, so I took more time to sand and prep before doing the grey. I wasn’t brave enough to take the headstock fully apart, so I’m not too happy with the paint on there, but I’ll see how it turns out when dry. I didn’t paint the motor as I think I’ll change that soon to 3 phase and VFD. Last piece I need to do is the apron/saddle. I also took the data plates off this time rather than mask them up, and the job is much better. I also spray painted black the data plate for feeds/speeds and then sand off the raised numbers when dry. 

It took me a while to decide to essentially start again as it felt like the first paint job would have been a waste of time, but I’m really glad I did as I much prefer this colour and the quality vs the green. I just need to try and be patient enough to let this dry properly and not rush in to trying to get it back together wet. It’s in a heated workshop and I’ve turned the temp up a bit, so hopefully 24 hours will be enough (rust oleum website says this is the time takes for 100% dry, but I’ve read people saying it takes longer)











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## Ben17484 (Aug 3, 2022)

Most parts are still drying, but I managed to get the tail stock back together (with the freshly polished wheel and knob(?)) I’m definitely liking this colour much more than the green 











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## Winegrower (Aug 3, 2022)

That was an excellent decision on the color, though function is my only concern, not appearance.  There’s not enough time left in my life to spend it repainting equipment.  There never was.


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## Ben17484 (Aug 3, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> That was an excellent decision on the color, though function is my only concern, not appearance. There’s not enough time left in my life to spend it repainting equipment. There never was.



Thanks Winegrower, I really like it. I stood staring at the parts in their green paint and just knew that if I left them like that I’d be disappointed every time I saw it. I figured while I’m in the swing of tearing the lathe completely down and my workshop is already covered in paint, sand paper and grease from the tear down, I may as well redo the paint and do it properly. 


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## Ben17484 (Aug 5, 2022)

The colour change is nearly done. Just the apron and saddle left. I’m much much happier with both the colour and quality of the job with this grey paint. It’s still very far from perfect but it’s good enough for me for now
















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## wachuko (Aug 5, 2022)

Looks great! 

I also liked the green color, but it was just that the lathe needed a complete paint job to look uniform.


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## Beckerkumm (Aug 5, 2022)

I think the color is great.  I'd take off the base bolts one by one and wire wheel them though.  Dave


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## Ben17484 (Aug 5, 2022)

wachuko said:


> Looks great!
> 
> I also liked the green color, but it was just that the lathe needed a complete paint job to look uniform.



Thanks, I think so 

The green was a little to dull for my liking and I just couldn’t see it being right for this lathe. I might paint my Mill the green colour though. Not sure why, but I think it’ll suit the mill 


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## Ben17484 (Aug 5, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> I think the color is great. I'd take off the base bolts one by one and wire wheel them though. Dave



Thanks Dave. I was thinking of maybe painting them black? It needs something to break up the grey that’s for sure. I’ll wire wheel them first and see how it goes. I’ve seen people paint the inside of the apron wheel and tail stock wheel black when doing a grey lathe, and I like the look of it that. I may do that at a later time as well. 


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## matthewsx (Aug 6, 2022)

Maybe someday I’ll get to go to a lathe show like the car shows I used to attend when I owned my Triumph TR4.

We had a saying then when folks started talking about colors or what was period correct.

“It’s your car, do whatever you like”

My vote is for whatever paint helps you make accurate parts quickly. I do like the grey but if you liked the green better that would be fine too. I repaint tools which have been severely neglected, and do clean up those which I’m not going to tear down all the way, but mostly I focus on functionality.

Your Smart & Brown is looking very smart indeed, can’t wait to see the first chips


Cheers, 

John


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## Ben17484 (Aug 6, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Maybe someday I’ll get to go to a lathe show like the car shows I used to attend when I owned my Triumph TR4.
> 
> We had a saying then when folks started talking about colors or what was period correct.
> 
> ...



I think the paint would need to be magic for me to be able to make accurate parts  (I’ll get there some day)

I’m hoping this lathe will last me several years, so wanted it to be right when I see it as I walk in to the workshop. I’m certainly not a perfectionist when it comes to aesthetics on things like this, but it needs to be presentable otherwise it would bother me. 


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## Ben17484 (Aug 11, 2022)

Progress has been made! Sorry, not too many mid project photos, but here is how it stands now:

















I’m pretty happy with how it is now. In terms of cleaning up and painting, it’s done. 

The things that are left to do:

- Make a new cam/lever for the pulley assembly. 
- make a carriage lock
- reassemble and figure out how to use the burnurd QCTP
- Fit my AXA tool post
- make the closing piece that goes over the spindle (what’s the name for this?) that’s missing for using the collets. 
- Electronic lead screw 

I’ve taken a bit of a break to get my new Mill up and running and want to finish that off so I’ve got two usable machines. Once that’s done, I’ll get to the list above. 


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## Ben17484 (Aug 11, 2022)

Right, I finally got around to having a play with the lathe tonight and started looking at tool posts. 

When I had a Warco lathe I bought an OXA 250-000 tool post and it turned out to be too small for the lathe, so I bought a larger 250-100. The 250-100 went when I sold the Warco, but I still have tbe 250-000. I’d forgotten how small it was! 






Even at the highest point, the tool is below centre of the work. This won’t work!

Fortunately the Smart and Brown came with two tool posts. Firstly, a tool post that seems to hold 20mm tooling (which feels big for this lathe?):






This is nice, but obviously requires shims and isn’t quick change. 

The other tool post is one I’ve not seen before (and based on some Googling is pretty rare), a Burnerd Tool Post Type 2:




















I tried this out tonight and really like it. I’ve got a bunch of holders for it, it fits well and is nice to use. 

I also got a load of HSS tooling with the lathe:






I’ve only ever used insert tooling before and have never used or ground HSS. Given the amount of HSS I have now and the Burnerd tool holders needing HSS, I better get learning about grinding HSS!! I’ve watched a bunch of YouTube videos on it, but it still scares me! 

I’d still like a more modern (not fussed which one) QCTP as I’ve a load of HSS tooling here to use that would fit. I’ll be on the look out for a cheap QCTP but am very happy with the Burnerd for now. 


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## Ben17484 (Aug 11, 2022)

I also bought a cheap Tachometer from Amazon and tested out the speeds on the lathe matched what they were advertised to be. I wouldn’t have bothered doing this (I’ve no reason to believe the RPM stated on the data plate is wrong), but I needed the tach for my new Mill which has no data plate to state the speeds and as I appear to be the only person who owns one of these mills, I’ve no way to Google to find out 


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## Ben17484 (Aug 12, 2022)

Thinking about this tool post, I could just make a riser block for it to get the tools at centre height. What real world difference would I see by getting a larger QCTP that took larger tooling? This holds 8mm tooling. Given I’m a beginner hobbyist and won’t be taking large cuts (if I wanted to, I’d put the other 20mm tool post on), is this tool post enough for my needs? 








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## Ben17484 (Aug 12, 2022)

I tried aligning my tail stock today, and before I got too far noticed something was out:






The height is different. 

I initially thought it might be the chuck or jaws or something being out, but rotating the chuck doesn’t change the height of the centre (I.e the height is still mismatched). I’m now wondering if I’ve missed something in reassembling the tail stock or if there’s a height adjustment I’ve missed somewhere?


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## WobblyHand (Aug 12, 2022)

Ben17484 said:


> I tried aligning my tail stock today, and before I got too far noticed something was out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Typically the tailstock is slightly higher than the headstock to allow for some wear.  There are no height adjustments in most lathes.  Only way to adjust the height downward is to machine the tailstock which is doable but tricky to get right.  My mini-lathe is similarly high.  My 10x22 is closer to the correct height.  

In most cases, the best you can do is to adjust the horizontal offset to zero and live with it.  But us being tinkerers we should be able to machine it to get it right.  The risk is adding more error than before.  We want to reduce height only but not to add yaw or pitch over the full travel of the quill. It's not that easy since you want the tailstock assembly to be true, but you can't assume that the individual pieces are true at all.  My mini-lathe tailstock base is not parallel to the ways but the assembly seems ok, save for height.  I may try to fix it, since I can get replacement parts if mess it up too much.  Not sure about your lathe.


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## Ben17484 (Aug 12, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Typically the tailstock is slightly higher than the headstock to allow for some wear. There are no height adjustments in most lathes. Only way to adjust the height downward is to machine the tailstock which is doable but tricky to get right. My mini-lathe is similarly high. My 10x22 is closer to the correct height.
> 
> In most cases, the best you can do is to adjust the horizontal offset to zero and live with it. But us being tinkerers we should be able to machine it to get it right. The risk is adding more error than before. We want to reduce height only but not to add yaw or pitch over the full travel of the quill. It's not that easy since you want the tailstock assembly to be true, but you can't assume that the individual pieces are true at all. My mini-lathe tailstock base is not parallel to the ways but the assembly seems ok, save for height. I may try to fix it, since I can get replacement parts if mess it up too much. Not sure about your lathe.



Thanks WobblyHand. I think the picture isn’t too clear, but the tail stock is low here. I’ve read that you can adjust the tail stock up by shimming between the two parts of the tail stock, but I wanted to figure out how to find out if the headstock is level (I’ve had it off the bed whilst restoring). I guess I can indicate the top of the spindle whilst the base is on the ways?

(On a side note, shim stock seems expensive!!?! Maybe just in the UK?)


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## Beckerkumm (Aug 12, 2022)

Tailstock looks low and need some shims.  Before you do that you need to determine if the ways have wear close to the spindle ( most do ) and how much the tailstock will rise as you increase the distance from the spindle.  You may have to settle on a sweet spot ( range ) where you will use the tailstock most and shim it to match at that point.  Dave


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## WobblyHand (Aug 12, 2022)

You are in luck, in a way.  Shimming will work for the tailstock height.  For the headstock you can use Rollie's Dad Method to check alignment.  Think it helps if the lathe is "leveled" first.  I used a ground 20mm bar for this.


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## Ben17484 (Aug 12, 2022)

I’m trying to figure out what the other compound slide I got with the lathe is for:











I’ve not seen a set up like this before. Does anyone know how this is used or what it’s for?


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## Ben17484 (Aug 12, 2022)

Thanks everyone for the advise on tail stock vertical alignment. I’ll get some shim stock, find the sweet spot along the ways and get the vertical alignment slightly closer to how it is now. 


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## Ben17484 (Sep 30, 2022)

Right, I finally got back to working on the lathe. The main thing left that’s stopping me using the lathe as much as I want, is the broken lever for changing the pulley:






Without this, changing spindle speed is annoying and takes a while. 

First, I took the part off:






Suggestions to fix this had been 1) Remake the part or 2) build up the broken area via brazing. 

I decided I don’t yet have the skills for number 1. Unfortunately I also decided I don’t yet have the skills for number 2 either. 

That left solution number 3) Mig welding. 

I know that mig welding cast iron isn’t strong and is brittle, but after some reading and some YouTube I read that it may be suitable as long as the forces are going to be low. 






So I filled in the whole by building up the weld and above is where I got to to start with. 






And then welded in a rod to test it out…. And it immediately snapped. 






So now I’m back to one of the first two solutions. No idea which one I’ll go with. If anyone has any other ideas how to get this usable, I’d appreciate it. 


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## Cadillac STS (Sep 30, 2022)

Looks like there is enough metal left to drill in and put in a threaded rod.  For that you could drill all the way through to the center hole and have a long thread.  Then make a shaft with a thread on the end and screw it in.

Would be a nice lathe project to make the handle that threads in.  Make it look as if it fits with the rest of the machine.


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## Ben17484 (Oct 1, 2022)

Cadillac STS said:


> Looks like there is enough metal left to drill in and put in a threaded rod. For that you could drill all the way through to the center hole and have a long thread. Then make a shaft with a thread on the end and screw it in.
> 
> Would be a nice lathe project to make the handle that threads in. Make it look as if it fits with the rest of the machine.



Great suggestion. I tried this out today and so far it’s worked ok. 











I’ve just stuck a long M8 bolt in there for now to test it out. The last thing I want to do is waste time building a nice handle for this for it to fail after a few weeks. I’m thinking if this works out, I’ll build up the bottom around the bolt with weld again just so I can smooth it out and make it look nicer, and then I’ll probably make a handle to screw on to the top part of the bolt (cutting the head off it of course). 


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## Ben17484 (Oct 3, 2022)

Got the tail stock shimmed today 






It’s lining up much better now. 

I decided to check how straight the lathe cut. Over 20cm I am getting 0.3mm taper (which is a lot, right?) I’ve done no levelling yet and haven’t precisely aligned the tail stock. I’ll try another cut without the tailstock later to remove that from the equation. I did check the spindle run out before and it seemed fine (can’t remember exact numbers, I’ll measure later).

I’m not sure what number I should be hoping for in terms of taper over distance? 


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## Ben17484 (Oct 3, 2022)

Bit more playing and measuring. 










Measured on the inside and outside of the spindle and I think this is pretty good in terms of runout? It’s a 0.01mm DTI and it’s moved a max of 0.04mm (if I’m reading this correctly) internally and 0.06mm externaly. 

I then realigned the tailstock with the dead centre in the spindle itself (as pointes out by people here) instead of holding it in a chuck. It seemed to be quite far out. 

After aligning the tailstock again I did another test cut:






And got a difference if 0.09mm (0.0035 inches) over 20cm (8 inches)











(Micrometer in inches on the bottom picture)

I’m not sure if I should keep chasing a better figure by doing some more levelling, or if this is good enough? (I realise that question is really subjective based on what needs to be made on the lathe). 


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## Beckerkumm (Oct 3, 2022)

If you are adjusting the TS close to the spindle, you need to keep in mind that that is where the wear is probably the greatest.  As you move the TS away, it might be moving off center, probably higher and maybe even side to side.  I'd turn a piece of stock over 4" ( large enough diameter to not need support ) and compare that to your readings of the longer supported piece over the same 4".  That should show you if the TS is influencing the cut.  I also find it helpful to measure diameter every inch to see if the difference is cone shaped or has a belly.  Also make sure there isn't runout on the live center or that you can influence it by pressing your finger against the stock at that point.  A poor live center can screw up your measurements near the TS.

My 1024 has a heavy bed and wide ways but they do show enough wear that I expect even the S and B hardened ways are not terribly hard so some wear is to be expected, especially if the apron and carriage oiler isn't working well or is poorly designed.  I don't think the 1024 oiler system is the best in that area and that creates wear.  My 1024 shows enough wear i can feel it with my finger but still turns to about .001.  My CVA has less wear and turns to within a couple tenths over a 6" distance.

Dave


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## Ben17484 (Oct 25, 2022)

My motivation and energy has been lacking when it comes to finishing off the lathe lately, so I’m going to post some ‘part way through’ pictures here to hopefully spur me on. 

Firstly, the X axis scale arrived (it took a long time from china) today:







Getting this fitted will complete all of my mill and lathe DRO axis. 

This pic is from my mill but shows the touchDRO setup on the tablet. The tablet will swivel to the right which is where the lathe is. Handy to be able to mount the tablet once and use for both machines. 






The other part finished project is the ELS conversion:






I’d say its half completed on the bench. This needs finishing and then mounting. The stupid thing is, the reason I stopped is that I can’t find a electrical enclosure big enough to fit everything. I must be being dumb, but I just can’t find one. Others I’ve seen/read have made their own. I don’t want to go that route. 

Right. Hopefully posting my shameful lethargy to you lot will spur me on to get this thing ‘done’


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## wachuko (Oct 25, 2022)

For my G0704, I just got an old computer case.  Stripped the inside and used that for installing all parts… Worked well and cost me nothing…


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## Ben17484 (Oct 25, 2022)

wachuko said:


> For my G0704, I just got an old computer case. Stripped the inside and used that for installing all parts… Worked well and cost me nothing…



Yeah, this is the only thing I can think of. 


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## Ben17484 (Oct 25, 2022)

wachuko said:


> For my G0704, I just got an old computer case. Stripped the inside and used that for installing all parts… Worked well and cost me nothing…
> 
> View attachment 424626
> 
> ...



That’s a neat looking setup. It’s worrying me that you’ve a lot more components and wires than me! Is this all Just for your ELS? Is it the clough42 one?


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## wachuko (Oct 25, 2022)

Ben17484 said:


> That’s a neat looking setup. It’s worrying me that you’ve a lot more components and wires than me! Is this all Just for your ELS? Is it the clough42 one?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Apologies for the confusion... I was just giving you the idea of finding an old computer case and using that.

This was the setup I used to convert to CNC my G0704 milling machine... more parts required... 









						G0704 CNC Conversion (yes, another thread on this :) )
					

Well, since you guys did not let me buy an inexpensive metal lathe to play with :p (link to that thread)... decided to convert my G0704 to a CNC machine.  Will document my journey with this project here.  Bought the machine back in 2015 (link to thread)  A few threads and videos I looked at on...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Ben17484 (Oct 25, 2022)

wachuko said:


> Apologies for the confusion... I was just giving you the idea of finding an old computer case and using that.
> 
> This was the setup I used to convert to CNC my G0704 milling machine... more parts required...
> 
> ...



Ah, i see. That’d explain all of the extra stuff. 


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## Ben17484 (Oct 25, 2022)

Posting my laziness this morning has helped. I got some time to continue to work on the electronics. The wiring is mostly done:






My lack of knowledge on steppes and controllers is showing through though. In the Clough42 diagram, it shows that there should be a FLT+ and FLT- on the controller that wires to the circuit board:






I understand these are Fault signals. 

I have the following:







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## WobblyHand (Oct 25, 2022)

ALM = ALARM, I think is the same as fault.  The docs on this stepper motor driver are confusing.  I also have the CL57T.  If it followed normal convention, the COM would be connected to ground, and ALM would be pulled up to +3.3V or +5V depending on what your micro-controller needed.  I have made my own ELS using a different processor.  At the moment, I don't use ALM.  However, I am running the wires to my control box, to (eventually) detect the signal.  The docs on the CL57T ALM signal make no sense to me - the schematic seems to have multiple errors and is not consistent with the text.  When I cable everything up, I will test it and figure out how to use it.  I have my power supply and CL57T in one box, and my processor and display will be in a much smaller box on the headstock.  I am using a touch screen for the user interface.  My processor PCB is about 100 x 100 mm and includes a display.

I think, if you check the Clough42 code base, that the Fault signal is not used, but please confirm that for yourself.


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## Ben17484 (Oct 25, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> ALM = ALARM, I think is the same as fault. The docs on this stepper motor driver are confusing. I also have the CL57T. If it followed normal convention, the COM would be connected to ground, and ALM would be pulled up to +3.3V or +5V depending on what your micro-controller needed. I have made my own ELS using a different processor. At the moment, I don't use ALM. However, I am running the wires to my control box, to (eventually) detect the signal. The docs on the CL57T ALM signal make no sense to me - the schematic seems to have multiple errors and is not consistent with the text. When I cable everything up, I will test it and figure out how to use it. I have my power supply and CL57T in one box, and my processor and display will be in a much smaller box on the headstock. I am using a touch screen for the user interface. My processor PCB is about 100 x 100 mm and includes a display.
> 
> I think, if you check the Clough42 code base, that the Fault signal is not used, but please confirm that for yourself.



Thank you. I had wondered if alarm was similar to fault. Theres only one ALM connection but two FLT (plus and minus), so how would they connect up?


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## WobblyHand (Oct 25, 2022)

Use ALM and COM.  I'm guessing ALM goes to + and COM to -.  I haven't tried this yet, but that's my best guess.  I'll be trying this myself within the week.


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## Ben17484 (Oct 25, 2022)

Thanks WobblyHand. I’ll try this and report back. 


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## Ben17484 (Oct 25, 2022)

wachuko said:


> For my G0704, I just got an old computer case. Stripped the inside and used that for installing all parts… Worked well and cost me nothing…
> 
> View attachment 424626
> 
> ...



I’ve ordered the cheapest old PC from eBay I could find. I only want it for the case. Thanks for confirming this was the easiest/best choice 

I don’t think I’ll post any pictures of how it ends up as there’s no way it’ll look as neat and tidy as your pic!! 


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## Ben17484 (Oct 26, 2022)

More work done on the ELS this morning. I think all of the wiring is mocked up:







I seem to be getting power to everywhere. There’s only one light that’s coming on the control panel at the moment and none of the buttons work. Im guess this is because I’ve not loaded the software on to the TI board yet. Still, progress being made. 


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## Ben17484 (Nov 29, 2022)

Not a lot to report. I’ve not had much time at all to do anything fun recently. 

I did try and get the Clough42 firmware on to the board yesterday though. I’m currently running in to problems with what for me should be the easy bit!

CCStudio version 9 (the version that Clough used) is not supported on my Mac as it’s too old. Version 10 and above doesn’t compile the code. I loaded up an Ubuntu VM and got CCStudio 9 installed, but the couldn’t get the board connected to the VM. Smallish issues that I’ll get passed. 


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## Ben17484 (Nov 30, 2022)

I got the problem with the firmware solved. Running CCStudio in a virtual machine looks to be unsupported (although should work) according to their website. I decided to partition my Mac and run OSX Mojave on the partition which can run CCStudio9. Got that up and running, flashed the board and am now seeing the "CLOUGH42" boot up on the LED with the buttons etc doing as they are supposed to do. 

I'm now stuck on the wiring for the stepper/encoder. I think I followed everything correctly and have just been double checking, but from watching the YouTube videos, I should be able to rotate the encoder and see the stepper rotate as well. This doesn't happen. 

Can anyone confirm that the wires from the encoder are In the correct order (here shown attached to the TI board)?
	

		
			
		

		
	




And also, the black wire highlighted here I assume is a ground? I've not got that connected. Should I?




@WobblyHand - higher up in the thread you mentioned that you were wiring one of these up yourself and were going to check where ALM and COM connect to. Did you get around to doing that? I connected them as you suggested, just seeing if you've any more info?


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## WobblyHand (Nov 30, 2022)

Ben17484 said:


> @WobblyHand - higher up in the thread you mentioned that you were wiring one of these up yourself and were going to check where ALM and COM connect to. Did you get around to doing that? I connected them as you suggested, just seeing if you've any more info?


I wired in the signals and brought the cabling to my controller, but haven't tried unraveling which is which yet.  I will take a look at this within the next day or two.  First thing I will try is COM to ground and pull up the ALM signal.  Since I have a +3.3V system, I will use a 10K resistor to +3.3V to start.  10K ohms may not be the right value, but the value is high enough that it should be safe to try.


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## Ben17484 (Nov 30, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> I wired in the signals and brought the cabling to my controller, but haven't tried unraveling which is which yet. I will take a look at this within the next day or two. First thing I will try is COM to ground and pull up the ALM signal. Since I have a +3.3V system, I will use a 10K resistor to +3.3V to start. 10K ohms may not be the right value, but the value is high enough that it should be safe to try.



Let me know what you find. 

I’m well and truly out of ideas. I’ve been rechecking all of the wiring based on diagrams I can find, rechecked all of the soldering and still nothing. I’ve no idea what to try now. 


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## Ben17484 (Nov 30, 2022)

A small amount of progress. I’ve now confirmed that that encoder is wired correctly as I can see RPM readout on the LEDs






So the issue is the wiring for the stepper motor. 


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## WobblyHand (Nov 30, 2022)

Ben17484 said:


> A small amount of progress. I’ve now confirmed that that encoder is wired correctly as I can see RPM readout on the LEDs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know if this is the case, but try switching the polarity for the ENA signal.  By that I mean, if you are using logic 0 for turning on ENA, use logic 1 instead, or vice-versa.  I find the documentation on the stepper motor controller is not clear.  I had to flip the polarity to get my stepper to work, if I recall correctly.  Do not change the wires!  This is a software polarity change or there's a variable that controls the sense of the logic.  Might work.  Might not, but worth checking into.


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## Ben17484 (Dec 1, 2022)

If I'm understanding the wiring for the stepper to driver correctly, I match the pin to colour from the tables at the bottom, then find the related pin in the tables at the top i.e. "Encoder Extension Cable Connection" table - Pin 2 is Red, find Pin 2 in the "Motor and Encoder Connection" table and find that it maps to VCC. Therefore the red wire goes in too VCC. Is this a correct way to do these mappings?








This makes sense to me, but maybe I'm reading it totally wrong.


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## RJSakowski (Dec 16, 2022)

You should be able to step the motor manually with a few jumpers.  The Pul+ & Pul- connections and the Dir+ and Dir- connections are inputs to optoisolators.  Connecting the - terminals to the negative of 5 volt power source and momentarilly touching the the Pul+ to the positive 5 volts should step the motor.  A simple brush of the terminal will more than likely create a number of steps but you will hear the steps and if youplace a piece of tape on the shaft as Clough did, you will see rotation.  connecting Dir+ to five volts should reverse the direction, verifying that the driver and stepper are working.


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## WobblyHand (Dec 16, 2022)

Just looking at the wiring pictures, I have a comment.  Personally I wouldn't use the same color for + and - of any power supply.  I see this on your +48V, and whatever you are using for the input of the stepper motor driver.  You may have wired it right, but there is a big risk of getting it wrong.   At the very least, make wire tags on the ends so if you have to rework things, bad things won't happen.  Been fooled more times than I want to admit by stuff like that.  Myself, I buy different colored wires.  Makes it quick and easy to check things.  Using the same color wires for twisted pairs makes it hard to know which is which without resorting to a volt ohm meter.  

BTW, the stepper motor driver has a switch setting.  You should set it to the +5V setting if you are using +5V logic, rather than +24V.  Another thing to check is the current limit settings on the driver.  Maybe the current setting is too low for the motor to move.  I seem to remember my motor being rather weak at the minimum current setting.  The motor would jump when stepped on the correct current setting due to the much greater torque developed.


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## Ben17484 (Dec 18, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Just looking at the wiring pictures, I have a comment. Personally I wouldn't use the same color for + and - of any power supply. I see this on your +48V, and whatever you are using for the input of the stepper motor driver. You may have wired it right, but there is a big risk of getting it wrong. At the very least, make wire tags on the ends so if you have to rework things, bad things won't happen. Been fooled more times than I want to admit by stuff like that. Myself, I buy different colored wires. Makes it quick and easy to check things. Using the same color wires for twisted pairs makes it hard to know which is which without resorting to a volt ohm meter.
> 
> BTW, the stepper motor driver has a switch setting. You should set it to the +5V setting if you are using +5V logic, rather than +24V. Another thing to check is the current limit settings on the driver. Maybe the current setting is too low for the motor to move. I seem to remember my motor being rather weak at the minimum current setting. The motor would jump when stepped on the correct current setting due to the much greater torque developed.



I totally agree about using all of the same colour wire. The setup at the moment was just ‘bench testing’ and put together when I only had one colour of wire to hand. I’ve since ordered multiple colours of wire and will rewire it all when I fix it to its permanent enclosure. 

The bigger news - it works! The 5V switch setting seemed to do it. Thank you so much! I was losing my mind with this. 

So now on to fitting it all to the PC case as it’s final home and then mounting the stepper and encoder to the lathe. Any reason I shouldn’t mount the components to a piece of wood and then the wood in to the PC case? Seems that this would be easier then drilling holes in the PC case for all of the components?


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## hman (Dec 18, 2022)

wachuko said:


> For my G0704, I just got an old computer case.  Stripped the inside and used that for installing all parts… Worked well and cost me nothing…
> 
> View attachment 424626
> 
> ...


I'm planning to do the same thing for a Taig 2019CR mill I'm building out to  full CNC(with Centroid) .  The original PC power supply will be useful for 5VDC and 12VDC. I'll add a 24VDC supply inside the case, along with a set of stepper drivers, etc. .... plus an additional fan, for improved cooling.   Still need to find a compact PC to run the software and drive the monitor.


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## Ben17484 (Dec 30, 2022)

I’ve not had a lot of time to spend on the lathe over the last few months, but I do have a few updates, a few of which I’ve got info for with other posts I’ve made on the forum. 

I’ll post them in seperate posts:


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## Ben17484 (Dec 30, 2022)

The ELS is slow progress as this is my first time with steppers/encoders/electronic soldering etc, but the wiring is done:







I managed to break the Clough42 panel, so I’ve another one on order. It all seemed to be working before I broke the panel though. Next up is mounting the encoder and stepper. 


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## Ben17484 (Dec 30, 2022)

I’ve been asking about QCTP in another thread. I’ve an OXA:






A Burnerd Type 2 Quick Set:






And this (not sure what this is called):






After some research, the OXA is too small for this lathe so is now on ebay. 

The Burnerd is nice, but holds too small tooling and doesn’t have holders for parting, knurling and a few others. Not sure whether to sell this, if so I’ve no idea what it’s worth, or keep it as an ornament. 

I’ve an AXA on order. Should be here soon. 

The other tool holder I’ll keep as it holds 16mm tooling of which I have a fair bit that came with the lathe. 


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## Ben17484 (Dec 30, 2022)

Next up was some play in the cross slide. I know that part of this was going to be because of the cross feed nut being worn, but it seemed worse than just that. I took it apart and found this:











There was a gap that was opening up from the collar. This seems to be fairly common on south bend 9 and their clones:











The best fix is to get a brass washer to fit at the collar end, but as a quick hack I added a washer between the dial ring and the collar:






This will be a temp fix until I make the brass washer to add to the correct place 


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## Ben17484 (Dec 30, 2022)

Lastly for now, I looked in to the power feed not working well. The engaegemt was terrible and as soon as the tool hit the work the power feed would basically stop. I took it apart and found that I’m missing the half moon shaped parts that go In the clutch. They look like this:






I’m guessing someone has had this apart in the past and lost them. I’ve a separate thread to ask if someone can take some measurements of the half moon shaped parts so I can make some. 


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## Ben17484 (Jan 2, 2023)

One more problem fixed today:







I made the ‘half moon’ (anyone know the real name for these?) parts to push the shoes out to engage the gear and worm drive. I made them out of brass for two reasons 1) that’s what I had to hand in roughly the right size 2) I don’t have any real dimensions for these parts. I couldn’t find that info anywhere. So I figure if they’re the wrong size and in being so cause some wear, I’d rather my parts wear instead of the shoes. 

I now have a working power feed!


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## Beckerkumm (Jan 2, 2023)

They were probably bronze originally but those should work fine.  The key to clutch shoes or gluts is that they should engage whatever they intend to and then back off a little so they aren't constantly pushing against anything.  Both clutches I've had to adjust suffered from being too tight until the shoes wore down and then never quite worked correctly.  Dave


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## twhite (Jan 2, 2023)

Deleted wrong place


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## Ben17484 (Jan 4, 2023)

The OXA is now sold and the new AXA has arrived. I’ll get it properly mounted tomorrow, it’s just placed on the lathe at the moment 







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