# 1/4 of the way to a mill



## DavidR8

Sold my mini lathe today. 
Got what I paid for it so that’s good. 
Deposit to the mill fund 


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## chippermat

Congrats. What mill do you plan to get? Do you still have a lathe?


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## DavidR8

I still have my South Bend 10K which I'm absolutely thrilled with.
I will probably get a King KC-20VS or a PDM-30 which I believe is similar to an RF-30.
I just don't have space for a full size machine.
The PM machines are nice but being in Canada they are crazy expensive, least expensive is over $2300 CDN plus shipping plus duty. When I asked for a shipping quote it was $400 CDN So that's getting into the $3000 range and I just cannot justify that.


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## chippermat

I'm with you on size, I'll have to check those out, thanks. Nice lathe you have


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## DavidR8

PDM-30








						King Industrial 1-1/4
					

This is a great starter mill/drill that won’t take up a lot of space in your workshop. This tool has been used for cylinder head resurfacing of small engines, but it has also seen use in dental clinics. Whatever the use, KMS has all the accessories




					www.kmstools.com
				




KC-20VS








						King Industrial 3/4
					

Powerful 1 HP single phase DC motorHead tilts 90 degrees left or rightSafety guard with limit switch protectionMagnetic line interruption switch needs a restart after a power failureSpindle depth digital readout and control panel with metric and imperial




					www.kmstools.com


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## francist

Wow, good job. It wasn’t even listed for a whole day yet!


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## DavidR8

Saw the listing did you?


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## francist

Yeah, my Sunday ritual of checking the listings... pretty slim pickings otherwise.


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## chippermat

I'll be honest, I've resisted looking into a mill. Is table power feed out of the question in this range?


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## DavidR8

@chippermat X-axis drives are available. There are lots of folks who do CNC conversions on this class of mill or even the smaller ones. 
The KC-20VS is basically a Grizzly G0704 as far as I can tell.


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## chippermat

Well that's hopeful then, thanks David.


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## darkzero

Congrats David. Nothing wrong with a mill/drill. I had briefly thought about buying a mini mill but knew that I would quickly out grow one like I did with my 8x mini lathe. So I waited and got me a mill/drill. Although I'd love to have a knee mill someday I don't have the room for one in my home garage. My mill/drill has done everything I have needed it to & it's a China machine. I still have no regrets in my purchase.


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## DavidR8

Thanks @darkzero what machine do you have?


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## darkzero

I have a PM45-PDF. RF-45 clone with power down feed. It's no longer offered by Precision Matthews, it was the predecssor to the PM-932. Basically the same machine as the PM-932 except the PM-45 did not come with a powered head (z axis) & the PM-45 came with a flood coolant system. The last of the PM-45s came stock with a quill DRO. Mine did not but that's ok as I wanted to add my own anyway.


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## darkzero




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## DavidR8

Thanks! I'm leaning toward the KC-20VS because most of what I've read is that round column mill/drills can be a real pain to maintain head alignment. I do know some have rectified this with mods but I haven's seen what's involved.


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## darkzero

Yep the RF-30/31s have alignment issues when moving the head but as you said there's remedies for that. But even without them if you plan your operations out before hand you can avoid moving the head. Plenty of guys have the RF-31 & have done great work with them. On the flashlight forum I came from there was an experienced machinist by trade & he had a RF-31 which totally surprised me, I expected him to have a BP.

They are more rigid IMO than the BF-30s. At the time QMT only had the BF & RF-45 style mill/drills so I saved up for the RF-45. But nothing wrong with the BFs, I just figured to go with the biggest/heaviest mill/drill that I could as I knew I would be keeping it for a while. I may have gone with the PM-935 but they did not exist at the time, only full size knee mills, well QMT was not offering them yet.

Either one will be good choices & you'll have loads of fun wiith them, can't say the same for your wallet though. You just may have to put Mike, Dave, myself, & the other usual suspects on ignore.


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## ttabbal

You need a Bridgeport...  

Do what you can do though. Maybe while you are saving something nice will come up used near you. That's how I wound up with mine. Never know.


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## FanMan

DavidR8 said:


> Thanks! I'm leaning toward the KC-20VS because most of what I've read is that round column mill/drills can be a real pain to maintain head alignment.





darkzero said:


> Yep the RF-30/31s have alignment issues when moving the head but as you said there's remedies for that. But even without them if you plan your operations out before hand you can avoid moving the head...


On the other hand, the ability to swing the head can be an advantage as you can put it over  any part of the  table and still have full travel.  I typically have the  vise  on the left side of the table, and the right side is free for another setup.  I couldn't do that with just the X axis travel.


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## Aaron_W

I know the general wisdom is stay away from round column mills, and I followed that for myself holding out for a small knee mill. 

In their favor the RF-31 and clones can often be found cheap ($1000 or less). I was surprised at how large they actually are the first time I saw one in person. 

They may have their issues but those are more ease of use than capability. On a budget, and / or limited space I can see their appeal. They are a lot more mill for the money than most of the mini-mills. They actually have a slightly larger work envelope than my Clausing, more HP and almost as heavy.


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## mikey

Hey Dave, have you seen this one? Check the video.

Little bit more money but a lot more machine that will fit in the same space.


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## DavidR8

Wow, I don't think that was there the last time I looked at their site. Nice machine!


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## Winegrower

I’m with Ttabbal, I feel like those of you who think a Bridgeport class won’t fit should take another look, maybe get rid of lesser equipment or space consumers.   Maybe some of the kids, whatever.  Reading the threads, it seems dissatisfaction will set in sooner or later.


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## mickri

I have an RF31 clone.  So far I have not had to move the head to change tooling.  Probably just lucky.  But I also go through all of the tooling I intend to use and make a dry run changing out the tooling.  Then set the head so I don't have to move it.  I set my mill/drill up with an ER32 to R8 adapter.  It doesn't take up much room and I have found that ER32 collets have a lot of what I call wiggle room when things are tight and I need to change tooling.

I looked into all kinds of modifications to deal with the alignment issue.  During that search I ran across a very simple solution.  If I can find the video again I will post it.  The solution used a magnetic base with a rod and a dial indicator.  Before moving the head the rod is placed against the quill and the dial indicator is set to zero.  Move the head and change your tooling.  Bring the head back to just touching the rod until the DI reads zero.




If you can find a small square column mill or knee mill within your budget go for it.  Otherwise get a round column mill/drill.  The mill/drill will most likely suit your needs for a long time.


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## Aaron_W

Winegrower said:


> I’m with Ttabbal, I feel like those of you who think a Bridgeport class won’t fit should take another look, maybe get rid of lesser equipment or space consumers.   Maybe some of the kids, whatever.  Reading the threads, it seems dissatisfaction will set in sooner or later.



It is the foot of mill sticking up through the middle of the kitchen floor where I run into problems with a Bridgeport.


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## DavidR8

mickri said:


> I have an RF31 clone.  So far I have not had to move the head to change tooling.  Probably just lucky.  But I also go through all of the tooling I intend to use and make a dry run changing out the tooling.  Then set the head so I don't have to move it.  I set my mill/drill up with an ER32 to R8 adapter.  It doesn't take up much room and I have found that ER32 collets have a lot of what I call wiggle room when things are tight and I need to change tooling.
> 
> I looked into all kinds of modifications to deal with the alignment issue.  During that search I ran across a very simple solution.  If I can find the video again I will post it.  The solution used a magnetic base with a rod and a dial indicator.  Before moving the head the rod is placed against the quill and the dial indicator is set to zero.  Move the head and change your tooling.  Bring the head back to just touching the rod until the DI reads zero.
> 
> View attachment 312484
> 
> 
> If you can find a small square column mill or knee mill within your budget go for it.  Otherwise get a round column mill/drill.  The mill/drill will most likely suit your needs for a long time.


Well that seems simple enough!
Keeping in mind that I'm so new to milling that I only recently learned to spell "mill" 
Is realignment only necessary when a tooling change (or something) requires the head to be swung away and brought back to the same location for the next op on the same piece?
It's not necessary if I were to mill a keyway today and then tomorrow facemill some stock.


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## ErichKeane

If you can do used, keep an eye out for a Burke/Powermatic Millrite.  They are a little tougher to find but are about 2/3 the size of a Bridgeport.  It ends up being much better space wise without giving up on too much of the rigidity/capabilities of a bridgeport.


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## mmcmdl

Another great thread to follow Dave .Good luck on your search !


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## Dudemanrod

Hey David I picked up a used Taiwanese Rf-30 300.00 with tooling vice ect. I have no room so I had to get a mill drill. They are way more capable than you would think. They are heavy and take decent cuts gunsmith s use them all the time. We are hobby machinists and most jobs can be done on them. Resell is good on them if you out grow it and find the room for a knee mill.


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## mickri

One of the benefits of the RF31 over a RF30 is the longer vertical travel on the quill.  The table is also bigger with longer travel.  Most people find a 4" vise to be the right size for a mill/drill.  Rotary tables from 6" to 8" are a good fit too.

If your vise comes with a swivel base like mine did make a backing plate that fits on the swivel base that will take the chucks from the lathe.   That is what I did.  I call it a rotary positioner.  You can see mine in the photo I posted above.  I have my vise setup on one side of the table and the rotary positioner  on the other.  I spent a fair amount of time centering it under the quill.  Then placed a sticky with the X & Y coordinates on the head so I can quickly bring it to center.  So far my milling projects have been fairly small.  I have not needed to move either the vise or the rotary positioner.  One word of caution.  Because the chucks screw onto the rotary positioner you have to be careful to make your cuts so that the cutting forces tend to tighten the chuck to the base.  Otherwise you could unscrew the chuck from the base.  One other thing.  The top of the rotary positioner is slightly lower than the bottom of the vise and with a chuck on it the chuck is higher than the top of the vise.  No interference issues.


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## DavidR8

Thanks @mickri, I'm assuming you have a DRO on your machine?


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## DavidR8

mickri said:


> I have an RF31 clone.  So far I have not had to move the head to change tooling.  Probably just lucky.  But I also go through all of the tooling I intend to use and make a dry run changing out the tooling.  Then set the head so I don't have to move it.  I set my mill/drill up with an ER32 to R8 adapter.  It doesn't take up much room and I have found that ER32 collets have a lot of what I call wiggle room when things are tight and I need to change tooling.
> 
> I looked into all kinds of modifications to deal with the alignment issue.  During that search I ran across a very simple solution.  If I can find the video again I will post it.  The solution used a magnetic base with a rod and a dial indicator.  Before moving the head the rod is placed against the quill and the dial indicator is set to zero.  Move the head and change your tooling.  Bring the head back to just touching the rod until the DI reads zero.
> 
> View attachment 312484
> 
> 
> If you can find a small square column mill or knee mill within your budget go for it.  Otherwise get a round column mill/drill.  The mill/drill will most likely suit your needs for a long time.


Is this the video?


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## ACHiPo

David,
Good luck.  I started looking for a drill press and ended up with an Enco 8x35, so I know how these things can go.  That being said I love the 8x35--small enough to be mobile, but stout enough to do nice work.

Before I found the 8x35 locally, I'd narrowed it down to PM's machines, either the 833T or their 835.  At the end of the day, the 835 doesn't take up much more space than a decent sized bench mill.

Evan


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## DavidR8

Thanks @ACHiPo 
Is what you have similar to this?


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## ACHiPo

DavidR8 said:


> Thanks @ACHiPo
> Is what you have similar to this?
> View attachment 312516


Yep.  Mine didn't have power feed, but I have one to put on when I get around to it.  It did have 2-axis DRO and a VFD, though.


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## mickri

I do not have a DRO and so far have not felt the need to get one.  I keep track of things by making notes of the position of the quill and then figure out how far I need to move the table.  On my mill/drill one full turn of both the X and Y handles is 0.125."  That gets confusing if I don't keep track of things.  Kind of old school you might say.   Works for me.

The above video is not the one I remember watching.  Has the same info on bringing the head back into alignment.  Did you notice how far beneath the quill his chuck was?  He lost a good 3 inches with that chuck.  One of the reasons I went with the ER32 was how close it was to the quill.


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## Aaron_W

There are knee mills of roughly the footprint of the two you linked to. Old American mills you have the Clausing 8520 / 8530 (and Johansen mills which the Clausing was based on), Rockwell 21-100 and midway between these and a Bridgeport are the Millrite mills. There are quite a few others in this size but very small numbers and I can't keep track of them.

With older imports there were quite a few made in Taiwan and China in the 80s and 90s of similar size under a slew of brand names. Some like Evan's Enco look liked scaled down Bridgeports, others are close copies of the Clausing and Rockwell mills.

There are several current import small knee mills sold by Grizzly and others, so I'm sure one of the Canadian importers probably has something similar. They are much larger than a mini-mill but much smaller than they look in photos.

Harbor Freight 6x26

Grizzly 6x26

Grizzly 8x30

Grizzly a different 8x30


In regards to space, unlike a lathe which is pretty well self contained within its footprint with most controls at the front, you need to leave some working room around a mill to allow for table travel and ability to get at things like belts, head adjustment and hand wheels.

Taking my Clausing as an example, it is a 6x24" mill, which is pretty small for a knee mill. With a 24" table you would think you just need a space just a little more than 2 feet wide for it, but in actually it needs about 4 feet, 16" for travel side to side (8" to either side) plus enough room to operate the hand wheels at each end. It also needs about 4 feet front to back as well to account for the depth of the machine and to allow the head to be adjusted in and out.

Actual floor space required is only about 18x24 inches though, most of the extra room being at the table height and higher so you can have some stuff around the base. I have shelving behind my mill for metal storage because there is a lot of space behind the mill below the level of the head.

I don't have much room, so I actually have to move the table to one side or the other to access the sides or back of the mill, but this is also a consideration. The table moves, so you can get creative in placement to use your space with maximum efficiency.


A bench mill will be both similar and different from a knee mill in space needs. Being bench mounted you have more control over height, and of course you can have all kinds of storage below the mill.

Height is a space issue I think many overlook. An 8 foot ceiling will work for most but with heights of 7-8 feet for many Bridgeport styled mills, anything less than 8 feet (as you may find in a basement shop) can result in a severe restriction of options.


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## ACHiPo

Here's my 8x35.  I mounted it to outriggers with wheels and leveling feet.


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## DavidR8

I have a Used.com alert setup for "Mill" and tonight this showed up:
Craftex CX603 Knee Mill





						Used.ca | Classifieds for Jobs, Rentals, Cars, Furniture and Free Stuff | Classifieds for Jobs, Rentals, Cars, Furniture and Free Stuff
					

Buy & sell your used stuff for free in . Your local, family-friendly online classifieds site for cars, furniture, jobs, real estate & more




					www.usedvictoria.com
				



This is the retail ad








						KNEE MILL VERTICAL CRAFTEX CX SERIES CX603
					

This heavy duty knee mill has the power and space to make quick and accurate work of just about any machining job you can throw at it.




					www.busybeetools.com
				




Gives you a flavour of my market <eyeroll/>


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## Aaron_W

DavidR8 said:


> I have a Used.com alert setup for "Mill" and tonight this showed up:
> Craftex CX603 Knee Mill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Used.ca | Classifieds for Jobs, Rentals, Cars, Furniture and Free Stuff | Classifieds for Jobs, Rentals, Cars, Furniture and Free Stuff
> 
> 
> Buy & sell your used stuff for free in . Your local, family-friendly online classifieds site for cars, furniture, jobs, real estate & more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.usedvictoria.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the retail ad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KNEE MILL VERTICAL CRAFTEX CX SERIES CX603
> 
> 
> This heavy duty knee mill has the power and space to make quick and accurate work of just about any machining job you can throw at it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.busybeetools.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gives you a flavour of my market <eyeroll/>



That is a pretty sparse ad and not much savings for being used (about 20% off). 

It could still be worthwhile. It doesn't look like these come with any tooling new, so if the used mill just comes with a vise, set of collets and some misc end mills then the used price looks a lot better. The bare minimum someone would have had to buy to run it. 
A decent 4-6" milling vise alone can easily run $300+ (US$ to early in the morning for me to convert currency  ).  

If it really comes with nothing, then I guess you are just getting the scratch and dent price. I wonder if this could be a retailer selling a floor display or something.


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## DavidR8

Thanks @Aaron_W 
Even though it’s about twice my budget I’m going to get in touch just to satisfy my curiosity. 


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## ACHiPo

DavidR8 said:


> Thanks @Aaron_W
> Even though it’s about twice my budget I’m going to get in touch just to satisfy my curiosity.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm with Aaron--almost looks like an ad from the dealer?  Maybe a demo, or??  Worth a look.  It is a nice size.  No idea about the quality of Craftex--presumably similar to BusyBee and other Chinese tool importers.


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## MontanaLon

I wonder how deep Customs would be up in your stuff if you came down to the US and brought one back?


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## ACHiPo

DavidR8 said:


> Thanks @Aaron_W
> Even though it’s about twice my budget I’m going to get in touch just to satisfy my curiosity.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


David,
I was going to give you an idea what I paid for my Enco, but I honestly can’t remember and it was only a couple years ago.  I even tried looking through my old emails with no luck.  Reinforces the “buy once cry once” motto.  I think it was $3500US?  Anyway I’m sure I’ve exceeded the mill price quite a bit with used tooling purchases.  It’s a bit like golf clubs—it seems outrageous to spend $2k for a set, but at $100/round the cost of clubs is quickly exceeded (not to mention the cost of ugly pants!)

My advice—take your time, get a feel for the market, but get something you’ll grow into not out of. 
Evan


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## DavidR8

The seller just used screenshots from the Busy Bee website. The ad copy notes that photos of the actual machine will be added. 

This morning I sent the seller an email asking about what tooling is included and haven’t heard back yet. 




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## DavidR8

MontanaLon said:


> I wonder how deep Customs would be up in your stuff if you came down to the US and brought one back?



Hard to say really. If it came back in pieces they might not bat an eye. But I’d expect to pay something.

The bigger challenge for us Canucks is the exchange rate, I add 37% to any US price which is the rate that I’m consistently charged for purchases in US dollars.


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## Aaron_W

Just to be clear I'm not trying to sway you to a knee mill, simply pointing out that they are not necessarily out of the question for a small shop. Bench mills and even the dreaded round column mills are very capable. There is a poster on the forum (davidpbest) who has some strong arguments for the benefits of a bench mill vs the Bridgeport style mills mostly to do with the rigidity of the head. 

I have a Sherline mini-mill which is a very small square column bench mill (50lbs), and a Clausing 8520 knee mill (900lbs). Both work well, but they are grapes and watermelons in trying to say one style or the other is superior.

Sherline on the Clausing


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## DavidR8

Aaron_W said:


> Just to be clear I'm not trying to sway you to a knee mill, simply pointing out that they are not necessarily out of the question for a small shop. Bench mills and even the dreaded round column mills are very capable. There is a poster on the forum (davidpbest) who has some strong arguments for the benefits of a bench mill vs the Bridgeport style mills mostly to do with the rigidity of the head.
> 
> I have a Sherline mini-mill which is a very small square column bench mill (50lbs), and a Clausing 8520 knee mill (900lbs). Both work well, but they are grapes and watermelons in trying to say one style or the other is superior.
> 
> Sherline on the Clausing
> 
> View attachment 312719


I think the Sherline is trembling with fear!


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## DavidR8

The Craftex seller replied to me:

'It comes with some collets / holder, some end mills , a facing tool (about 2”) and a 3/4” holder as well'


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## Aaron_W

No vise? A 4" milling vise appropriate for that mill could range from a Kurt at $600 to a cheap import at $98. 



DavidR8 said:


> I think the Sherline is trembling with fear!



No the Sherline is like a Dachshund, a small dog that thinks it is huge.


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## Shootymacshootface

Aaron_W said:


> Just to be clear I'm not trying to sway you to a knee mill, simply pointing out that they are not necessarily out of the question for a small shop. Bench mills and even the dreaded round column mills are very capable. There is a poster on the forum (davidpbest) who has some strong arguments for the benefits of a bench mill vs the Bridgeport style mills mostly to do with the rigidity of the head.
> 
> I have a Sherline mini-mill which is a very small square column bench mill (50lbs), and a Clausing 8520 knee mill (900lbs). Both work well, but they are grapes and watermelons in trying to say one style or the other is superior.
> 
> Sherline on the Clausing
> 
> View attachment 312719


Funny that 3 years ago I didn't even have a mill. Now, I have a full size knee mill and I'm thinking about getting a mini mill and doing a cnc upgrade to make lots of small aluminium parts.


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## DavidR8

Yes, I understand I am on a slippery slope!


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## francist

Those Clausing machines really do look like the perfect size for a small, one-man hobby outfit. 

Never know, David, you've surprised us all so far in what you've been able to scare up in a short time!!


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## DavidR8

francist said:


> Those Clausing machines really do look like the perfect size for a small, one-man hobby outfit.
> 
> Never know, David, you've surprised us all so far in what you've been able to scare up in a short time!!


I haven't deployed my secret weapon yet <evilgrin>


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## francist

Yeah, can't wait. I'll never find another deal in town again.....


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## francist

Kidding, my friend.


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## DavidR8

So what does the hive think about an RF-40?


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## Aukai

3 phase? I have the Grizzly G0755, but maybe you could get it without the stand a tad cheaper. Anyway at the bottom of the page are pictures of all their selections, and pricing, just for more research material.









						10" x 33" 2 HP HD Benchtop Milling Machine at Grizzly.com
					

<h1>G0720R 10" x 33" 2 HP HD Benchtop Milling Machine</h1> <h2>Begin heavy-duty milling operations from your benchtop today.</h2> <p>The G0720R Heavy-Duty Benchtop Mill removes material from workpieces to form complex shapes.</p> <p>The headstock can be held stationary between 45° left to 45°...




					www.grizzly.com
				



*Grizzly G0755 10" x 32" 2 HP HD Mill/Drill with Stand and Power Feed*
  View (15) Reviews



























$3,55000
+$19900 Freight



Motor size: 2 HP
Table size: 31-1/2" x 9-1/2"
Longitudinal travel: 20"
Cross travel: 7-7/8"
Spindle taper: R-8
Number of speeds: 6
Max spindle to table distance: 18"
Max spindle to column distance: 10"
Shipping weight: 1102 lbs.
*Motor Size*
350W - 3/4 HP1 - 1.5 HP2 - 3 HP
*Hover to View Details*



$1,89500



$2,29500



$2,35000



$2,75000



$3,55000



$3,95000



$6,59500



$7,99500



$10,99500


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## DavidR8

Aukai said:


> 3 phase? I have the Grizzly G0755, but maybe you could get it without the stand a tad cheaper. Anyway at the bottom of the page are pictures of all their selections, and pricing, just for more research material.


Thanks, as far as I can tell the RF-40 is a round column so maybe like the G0754?
 I'm waiting for pics from the seller.





						RongFu Mill Drill Machine Manufacturer - Taiwan Brand
					

Mill Drill Machine Maker - We Supply Global Brands with OEM Drilling Machines - North America / Europe and More. Contact Now.




					www.rongfu.com


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## DavidR8

A few pics of the RF-40. Asking “$2800ish”
(For comparison a new RF-30 is $2300 here)
220v or 110v
From the seller:
“Here you go. It is very clean. I also have a set of collets, a set of ER32 collets, and a 1/2” Jacob’s drill chuck. The vise is a Precision Matthews 4” and has the swivel base still in plastic.”






















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## mikey

Dave, that is essentially a gear head on an RF-30 machine and, at least in my opinion, not worth what he is asking. If he came down to $1500 then it might be worth that. If you're going anywhere near $3000 then I would hold out for a used knee mill.


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## DavidR8

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. @mikey 
Too much cash for not enough machine.


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## mikey

Yeah, it looks like he just painted it, too. Wonder what it looked like before he did that. I would pass unless he is really willing to come down significantly.


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## DavidR8

mikey said:


> Yeah, it looks like he just painted it, too. Wonder what it looked like before he did that. I would pass unless he is really willing to come down significantly.


Agreed. I noticed the shiny new bolts on the base. 
Makes me wonder why he is selling it. 
I might low-ball him just to see what he'd say. 
It almost worked on that other South Bend lathe (which is still for sale  )


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## mikey

If you do try it, be sure you have your ducks in a row. Tell him a brand new RF-40 is going for $2205 on ebay right now so his price is way out of line. A used mill is worth maybe 50% of new cost if it is in really good shape, which his isn't. Don't be swayed by the inclusion of an import milling vise; it is worth very little. Neither are used import collets or collet chucks. The only thing that is worth having is an x-axis power feed and working DRO. The rest you will buy as needed. 

If he bites and seems interested in your low ball offer, go see the machine and check it carefully. It has to be fully operational, Dave, or it isn't worth the cost. Parts will be difficult to come by in Canada and isn't worth making his problems your own.


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## DavidR8

Thanks @mikey 
Totally agree. It’s a $120 vise not a Kurt and the collets are $30 from Banggood. 
So it has to be in the $1000 range for me to be remotely interested 


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## mmcmdl

DavidR8 said:


> I just don't have space for a full size machine.



Make the space !  For the money you're willing to spend , you could find a nice well tooled BP or clone .  Not saying that those smaller mills aren't nice , but don't rule out full size mills in your search either . You find a good one , grab it . You'll come up with the footprint for it .


----------



## mikey

Let us know how it goes. I will bet he won't bite. He is relying on these things being difficult or expensive to get in Canada, which is true, but that doesn't mean you have to be stupid about it.


----------



## DavidR8

You guys are awesome!


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## mmcmdl

What would it cost to ship a BP from Toronto to your place Dave ? Any idea ?


----------



## DavidR8

mmcmdl said:


> What would it cost to ship a BP from Toronto to your place Dave ? Any idea ?


No idea. Did you see this Bridgeport in Toronto?








						Kijiji - Buy, Sell & Save with Canada's #1 Local Classifieds
					

Visit Kijiji Classifieds to buy, sell, or trade almost anything! New and used items, cars, real estate, jobs, services, vacation rentals and more virtually anywhere.




					www.kijiji.ca


----------



## mmcmdl

Nope , I don't need to check out Toronto for a mill !  I run into mills quite a bit down here . Actually , they run into me . I was curious as my son goes to Toronto every month it seems , he's up there at this very minute mof . My property is just below the border in upstate NY . Just a thought on my part .


----------



## DavidR8

It's a good thought to be sure.


----------



## mmcmdl

I still have to go up and pick up my stump grinder , maybe late March timeline . But its like I said , equipment somehow finds me . Always has .


----------



## DavidR8

To be completely honest I have no idea who to call to get something picked up and moved   
The whole idea of moving a half ton of cast iron is a mystery to me.


----------



## mmcmdl

Let alone a ton and a quarter


----------



## Aaron_W

francist said:


> Those Clausing machines really do look like the perfect size for a small, one-man hobby outfit.
> 
> Never know, David, you've surprised us all so far in what you've been able to scare up in a short time!!



Well it was the perfect size for my shop anyway.

Some of the other "not quite a Bridgeport" mills would be great in a garage, but I not only have an overhead limitation, I also only have access to the shop through a single standard width exterior door (I think 36" if I take the door off the hinges). The Clausings break down into several very manageable component parts.



DavidR8 said:


> To be completely honest I have no idea who to call to get something picked up and moved
> The whole idea of moving a half ton of cast iron is a mystery to me.



You will want to acquire a 2 ton engine hoist, some tow straps and heavy carts, it makes life so much easier. I have no idea what I'm doing and I've managed to get 3 machines in the 800-950lb range into my basement.


----------



## Lo-Fi

I was in the same position as you: newbie looking for a mill, looking at listings I couldn't afford. £2500 for a used bridgeport, Viceroy or suchlike seemed way out of reach, as did space for a Bridgeport. Then one came up locally in a factory for a silly price. Wasn't working (electrical controls dead as a dodo); they just wanted rid of it and wanted the space. I jumped on it. Turns out it just needed a circuit breaker resetting! 

I hired a trailer and bought an old pallet truck to use as a machinery skate. Head and knee came off and onto pallets and we winched each part up the ramps on the pallet truck. The column was a bit of a beast, but we got there slow and steady. 

I've minimised the room it take up by putting it in the corner of the garage, angled 45° with its back to the door/wall. That way, if I need to get to the back I just have to open the door! A smaller machine wouldn't take up that much less room in that setup. Moving a smaller machine would be easier, though! 

One thing that's made the Bridgeport truly worthwhile - and this would be true of most old industrial iron - is the availability of cheap, quality tooling. I've scored a beautiful Kamakura 10" rotary table for £150, dividing head with no identifying marks, but little wear and a set of plates and capable of spiral milling for £160 and got really lucky being given (!) a Wohlhaupter boring/facing head that's possibly the finest tool I now own. Less than import prices for quality tools of far superior quality. But... wouldn't be good fits for small machines. The smaller stuff, if you can even find it, tends to hold value as more hobbyists want it. Worth bearing in mind in the mill budget/tooling/space calculation and waiting until that perfect, hopefully bargainous mill comes up! 

Good hunting


----------



## mmcmdl

A free Wohlhopter head ?  That's my favorite and most cherished tool also . This did a ton of close tolerance work for me in the past .


----------



## Lo-Fi

Lots of shops are getting rid of manual stuff as they replace with CNC. Right place, right time and I got _really_ lucky. I'd bought some other bits and the boring head was one of those "you might as well have this too". 

It's actually a good time to be buying old manual machining stuff, I think. This side of the pond, the last year or so has seen some really nice stuff come up at silly prices easily within hobbyist reach. I've currently got my eye on an automatic surface grinder going for not much. There's good machinery about! Having got my hands on decent ex industrial stuff, I'll think twice about buying new again. .


----------



## DavidR8

Just for entertainment sake I sent a message to Precision Matthews enquiring about the cost to get a PM-25MV to my door. 

Below is the quote:

PM-25MV: $1,699.00

PM-25 Stand $169.00

Customs charges $188.40 ($93.40 + $95.00 broker fee)

Shipping: $230.00 (Lift Gate Included)

Total: $2,286.40

Add 37% for exchange and that’s a whopping $3131 

The shipping is only $40 more than CONUS shipping which is a total surprise to me. 


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## mikey

Try shipping to Hawaii.


----------



## Shootymacshootface

mikey said:


> Try shipping to Hawaii.


Just order stuff from Asia.


----------



## mikey

Not likely to happen.


----------



## DavidR8

I can't imagine what shipping to Hawaii would cost... ugh


----------



## DavidR8

I guess I could buy it from PM via eBay as the total cost is a few hundred dollars less


----------



## darkzero

DavidR8 said:


> I guess I could buy it from PM via eBay as the total cost is a few hundred dollars less
> View attachment 313255



Try calling or PM Matt & see what he could do for you. Mention that you are a member here (since he's a site sponsor) & mention that on ebay total shipped is cheaper than your quote. He may work out a deal with you since he'd be avoiding ebay fees if purchased directly.


----------



## DavidR8

Good idea Will!


----------



## darkzero

Just give him time to respond. I'm sure he is a busy man more than ever. At times he was hard to get a hold of back when I bought my lathe & mill but Matt is always awesome to work with & this was before I joined this site & long before he was a site sponsor here. I have always dealt with Matt directly.


----------



## DavidR8

My ship has passed under the bridge and come into port! 










						milling machine
					

9 x 48 milling machine, Bridgeport clone, 3 phase motor, variable speed spindle, coolant pump, DRO, vise, R8 collets, power feed on x axis.  Sadly too big for my shop. Can run on rotary phase converter or VFD if using single phase. Machine has had only light use, very good condition. Serious...




					www.usedvictoria.com


----------



## pontiac428

Two weeks ago, I saw a craigslist ad (Seattle listing) from a guy in the north end of Victoria that was clearing out his entire shop.  He had multiple lathes and at least one mill...  Well, I can't find it now, maybe it was taken down... but I'm certain it wasn't a hallucination from drinking too much Kentucky-aged turpentine.  Did you stumble across this guy's living estate sale in your search?


----------



## pontiac428

DavidR8 said:


> My ship has passed under the bridge and come into port!



They must be joking to call a Lagun FTV-1 a "Bridgeport clone".  How about significant Bridgeport upgrade instead?   But... not at that price, uh-uh.


----------



## DavidR8

pontiac428 said:


> Two weeks ago, I saw a craigslist ad (Seattle listing) from a guy in the north end of Victoria that was clearing out his entire shop.  He had multiple lathes and at least one mill...  Well, I can't find it now, maybe it was taken down... but I'm certain it wasn't a hallucination from drinking too much Kentucky-aged turpentine.  Did you stumble across this guy's living estate sale in your search?


Yeah I think I posted that. Does the figure of $35K ring a bell?









						Machine shop - business/commercial - by owner
					

machine shop Mill, lathe, bandsaws, tig welding, Arbour, pipe bender, compressor, steel and...



					victoria.craigslist.org


----------



## pontiac428

I think he had things priced individually, because I went through the thought exercise of trailering a piece of production equipment on the ferries and across the border before I decided I'd rather not bother.  Anyway, money talks, and when you drop a sack full of loonies on the table people tend to soften up on those hard lines.  Then again, the only thing you can be sure of in life is that people are going to be weird.


----------



## DavidR8

The seller of the RF-40 basically wasn’t willing to move on price however he alerted me to a RF-30 for sale, just listed yesterday. 









__





						Used.ca | Classifieds for Jobs, Rentals, Cars, Furniture and Free Stuff
					

Buy & sell your used stuff for free in . Your local, family-friendly online classifieds site for cars, furniture, jobs, real estate & more




					www.usedvictoria.com
				




Spoke to the seller. He’s looking for a drill press instead. He’s never used it as a mill. 
So I may be able to work a partial trade for my Kira bench drill press. (@francist we have the same drill press!)

Not a lot of tooling other than the vise but far less money than $2800 for the RF-40 


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## francist

Ah know! I didn’t think there were that many around so was surprised to hear of yours. I got mine from my old boss when he passed away — it’s a good machine, I like it.

BTW, was wondering if you had sniffed out that $1300 or not, I saw it come up on Thursday I think.

-f


----------



## mikey

What is that pimple in the middle of the round column? There isn't supposed to be anything there.


----------



## DavidR8

I believe it’s a magnet. 

Confirmed @mikey it’s a magnet. 
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## mickri

For $1300 I would keeping looking.  He who rushes pays top dollar.  This isn't something that you had to have yesterday.


----------



## mikey

mickri said:


> For $1300 I would keeping looking.  He who rushes pays top dollar.  This isn't something that you had to have yesterday.



Dave, I agree with Mickri. That mill is quite old and he is asking a lot for it.


----------



## Aaron_W

Remember David is in Canada, $1300 Canadian is around $850 US.


----------



## DavidR8

Thanks @Aaron_W 
Except for perhaps the Maritime provinces, my market is probably the worst in Canada for machinery buyers. 

There was little to no industry here which means there are few, if any folks who are either working millrights or machinists living here who would be selling machines. 

For contrast, there’s a fellow somewhat nearby who bought a Sheperd BP clone for ~$6100 and now has it listed for $8500. 

Will he get that? I doubt it but I’ll bet he gets least $6K. 

This fellow is asking $1300 for a Taiwanese LC-30A. 

A new Chinese RF-30 clone is $2300 here. I’m not sure that spending a thousand more for a new version of the same thing is going to buy me much more machine. 

The seller said he never used it as a mill so I expect the ways and screws to be in good shape. I may end up putting in new bearings, changing some belts and cleaning it up. I can live with that. 
Provided it’s in good condition 


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## mmcmdl

Dave , that FTV-1 is a very nice mill . Not sure if that is canadian $$$$$ or not , but that's worth beating him down on his asking price if possible and the machine is tight .


----------



## DavidR8

mmcmdl said:


> Dave , that FTV-1 is a very nice mill . Not sure if that is canadian $$$$$ or not , but that's worth beating him down on his asking price if possible and the machine is tight .


It's actually not a Lagun FTV-1, it's a Shepherd 3.0.And yup $8500 CDN
Here's a link to a dead webpage from the retailer. Originally retailed for $8500 CDN. I know the seller paid no more than $6150 so he's trying to make a quick buck.
And there's no negotiating him down on price because I already tried; told him that I knew he paid $6150 or less. He basically told me to get stuffed.

It's way out of my price range regardless.


----------



## DavidR8

I’m going to look at both the RF-40 and the Long Chang LC-30A today. 

We shall see what happens. 


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## DavidR8

Alrighty folks, I looked at both mills today. 

The RF40 was ok, it did have a Baldor motor as noted earlier but it also had about .003 lateral play in the table end of the spindle. A fair bit of backlash in the table on both axis as well. I realize this can be adjusted out. 

Overall it seemed like it had seen some hard use and the seller was partway through a refurb. 

When I pointed out my concerns to the seller he was indifferent and said the lowest he would go was $2400 but that wouldn’t include the vise or collets. 

I decided to pass. 

I then went to the RF30. 
It checked out really well. The table is tight with minimal backlash. Spindle has .001 of runout and is silky smooth when running. 

We struck a deal that made us both happy.  Turned out that I was better than halfway toward my mill 

So we loaded it into my truck where it now sits. 







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## MontanaLon

Nice, now you need a surface grinder.


----------



## francist

Nice! That oughta keep you out of trouble for a while.... or not....  

Glad you got one that's making you happy.


-frank


----------



## middle.road

What's the spindle type on that puppy?


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## DavidR8

It’s an MT3 spindle. 


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## DavidR8

Thanks @francist!
Let me know when you need a new machine and I’ll put my secret weapon into gear 


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## Shootymacshootface

You will be fine with the mt3. There are lots of tool holding options for mt3.
Congrats on the new mill!


----------



## middle.road

Mill looks a tad dry.
If it were me, I would grab some ISO32 Hydraulic oil from the local farm store if you can, it's cheap and does the job.
Slop it on all over and let it soak in. IMO, the oil suspends the dirt and grim better than spray lubes.
Thankfully you're not having to deal with rusted/seized up parts.
I would tear it down, remove the table and check out the GIBs. Clean, de-burr and lube.
That was the main problem with the one that sold around here back in July, it was dry. I knew the gent that bought it and he called me a couple of weeks later asking me to look at it. Got it tore down, and when I left he (and his son) were de-burring and stoning it.
Just my opinion, YMMV.

PS: post a picture of the drawbar when you get a chance to.


----------



## DavidR8

So here’s the unloading.

The seller, Larry had a Toro walk-behind bobcat type loader. When I arrived he was in the middle of fabricating a platform to stand on behind the machine because it was a leeetle precarious.






We bolted the mill to a pair of 2x6s so that it couldn't tip forward





In an attempt to lighten the load, I removed the motor and the countershaft assembly.





Shims under the column





And the column and head are on the ground. Honestly this was a bit terrifying. I lifted the column off the base and onto the truck bed. I positioned 2x6s so I could walk it down the ramp but holy moley it was really unbalanced toward the spindle end.





I pulled my truck forward and wedged the 2x6s between the box and the edge of my garage floor pad. I had to raise the base high enough to clear the bolts that were coming up from the bottom of the 2x6s. Then I levered the base slowly onto the ramp.





And voila! On the floor of my garage.




This is just a shot of the casting sand etc that was in the base. 





Drawbar









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## middle.road

3/8"-16 or ??? On the drawbar.


----------



## DavidR8

Honestly I didn’t measure it. 
I was pretty much done at that point. 
I will measure it tomorrow 


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## MontanaLon

They sure don't put much effort into getting the casting sand out of the parts.

Looks good.


----------



## DavidR8

MontanaLon said:


> They sure don't put much effort into getting the casting sand out of the parts.
> 
> Looks good.



Nope, it was pretty gritty. 
I vacuumed it all up. 
The column was still coated in cosmoline. I might have been the first person to take the cover off the drive assembly as the latches were painted closed with original paint. 


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## Shootymacshootface

Looks great David. I really enjoy resurrecting old and neglected machines.
Where's all the snow and subzero weather up there in Canada? I see green grass. I haven't seen green grass around here since the beginning of November.


----------



## DavidR8

Shootymacshootface said:


> Looks great David. I really enjoy resurrecting old and neglected machines.
> Where's all the snow and subzero weather up there in Canada? I see green grass. I haven't seen green grass around here since the beginning of November.



Thanks! I’m totally stoked about it. 
This will be my first machine resto. I went through my Unisaw with a fine tooth comb but nothing needed attention. 

This really doesn’t need more than a serious cleaning but I’m going to go through it so that I become familiar with it’s workings. 

This is the drill chuck that came with it. 






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## middle.road

Looks like a tang, no tapped hole for a drawbar... 


DavidR8 said:


> Thanks! I’m totally stoked about it.
> This will be my first machine resto. I went through my Unisaw with a fine tooth comb but nothing needed attention.
> 
> This really doesn’t need more than a serious cleaning but I’m going to go through it so that I become familiar with it’s workings.
> 
> This is the drill chuck that came with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Aaron_W

Congratulations!

See there is stuff out there, just takes a little while to find sometimes.


----------



## RYAN S

Congratulations!!


----------



## mikey

Congrats, Dave!


----------



## DavidR8

middle.road said:


> Looks like a tang, no tapped hole for a drawbar...



Indeed it is not tapped. 
I need to measure the drawbar to ensure that I purchase the correct MT3 holders. 


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## DavidR8

Thanks @mikey @RYAN S 
I wouldn’t have been able to make this decision were it not for all of the excellent advice from the experienced folks here. 


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## ttabbal

Drill chuck, doesn't need a drawbar.  

Looks like a good machine. I bet with a little cleaning and oiling, it will serve you well. My mill needed some TLC as well, I really enjoyed working on it. Always nice to see machines get to people who will appreciate them.


----------



## mikey

DavidR8 said:


> Thanks @mikey @RYAN S
> I wouldn’t have been able to make this decision were it not for all of the excellent advice from the experienced folks here.



The main thing is that you're no longer mill-less, Dave. Having a lathe or a mill is a tremendous learning experience but having both will allow you to build almost anything you can imagine. We have all watched you go from zero to having a SB Heavy 10 and now a mill that is big enough to do decent work - it has been a nice thing to watch. Your positive attitude and extremely pleasant personality have made you many friends on this site. Welcome to the slippery slope!


----------



## Shootymacshootface

About a year from now you will realize that you just spent the last year making tools for your tools.


----------



## Aukai

Good job Dave, congratulations!!!


----------



## ACHiPo

Dave, 
congratulations!


----------



## ErichKeane

So the big downside to an MT taper is that the drawbar thread isn't standardized, and much of the chinese/ebay stuff makes poor documentation out of which it is.  For MT4, I discovered 3 different threads, 1 of which i could buy tangs for, 2 of which I had drill chucks/centers for  

In your case, you may wish to pick up a couple rods of 4140 and just make yourself 1 drawbar of each thread, otherwise you'll find yourself needing to spend 2x to make sure you get holders/etc of the right pitch.


----------



## DavidR8

Indeed @ErichKeane, I was doing some pre-shopping research last night and discovered tapers with M12, 3/8-16 and 1/2-16 threads. 
I like your idea of having some 4140 rods on hand. Forewarned is forearmed!


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## middle.road

Something like this will get you started. If you go for one of these make sure the chuck body has flats on it for a wrench.

Need to determine the thread on the current Drawbar.








						ER32 Morse Taper 3 Collet Chuck Tool Holder Set 13 PCS Set
					

<!-- <ul><li>Collet Range: 1/8-3/4" by 1/16ths (11 sizes)</li></ul> -->




					www.shars.com
				




Banggood, has a 1/2-13 thread. USD$75 cheaper. more collets. Of course with the virus outbreak. . . .








						18pcs 3-20mm Collects Set MTB3 ER32 Collet Chuck Set  1/2 Inch Thread with Chuck And Spanner
					

Only US$136.99, buy best 18pcs 3-20mm Collects Set 3MT ER32 Collet Chuck Set With MT3 1/2 Inch  Shank Chuck And Spanner For Milling Machine sale online store at wholesale price.




					usa.banggood.com
				




Then later on you can get a couple of these later, and have the collets to use with them.


----------



## DavidR8

Wait a second @middle.road, were you looking at my browsing history??? 
Those were the two sets I was looking at.


----------



## Aaron_W

Little Machine Shop has a decent selection of MT3 tooling. I've bought from them several times and no complaints.

It looks like most of theirs are 3/8-16 and they do specify the drawbar used where appropriate. Some items like the dead center don't use a drawbar.

Little Machine Shop MT3 search


----------



## RYAN S

I had two round column mills before I got my bridgeport, I never had any complaints about either one! You will be very happy with what you have!
Ryan


----------



## mattthemuppet2

nice, congrats!


----------



## DavidR8

Aaron_W said:


> Little Machine Shop has a decent selection of MT3 tooling. I've bought from them several times and no complaints.
> 
> It looks like most of theirs are 3/8-16 and they do specify the drawbar used where appropriate. Some items like the dead center don't use a drawbar.
> 
> Little Machine Shop MT3 search



I ended up buying that collet chuck set. 
I wasn’t keen on having to make a metric drawbar just to get started. 


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## Janderso

mickri said:


> For $1300 I would keeping looking.  He who rushes pays top dollar.  This isn't something that you had to have yesterday.


Or a piece of junk


----------



## Janderso

DavidR8 said:


> Wait a second @middle.road, were you looking at my browsing history???
> Those were the two sets I was looking at.


Yes, www.davesbrowsinghistory.fun


----------



## Janderso

Dave,
You will learn a bunch on that mill. Down the road, you may want to upgrade and you’ll have a large box of experience to take with you on your next piece of equipment.


----------



## DavidR8

Janderso said:


> Dave,
> You will learn a bunch on that mill. Down the road, you may want to upgrade and you’ll have a large box of experience to take with you on your next piece of equipment.



That’s my intention. I’ve been trying to absorb as much knowledge from all the folks here so that I have .005 of a clue when I start making chips with it. 


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----------



## Janderso

MontanaLon said:


> They sure don't put much effort into getting the casting sand out of the parts.
> 
> Looks good.


Looks like casting pea gravel


----------



## DavidR8

Janderso said:


> Looks like casting pea gravel



Note the heavy application of filler on the column. 
That will be coming off I think. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Janderso

I wanted to add, think about your tooling purchases, I believe you said it has MT3 taper?
You won’t find any Bridgeport clones with an MT3 spindle. There are plenty of items you will want thinking about fixturing, holding, measuring etc. that you will use on any mill.
I have a small Industrolite horizontal/vertical mill that has mt3. Ulma Doc provided some tooling with it When I picked it up from his shop.


----------



## DavidR8

Janderso said:


> I wanted to add, think about your tooling purchases, I believe you said it has MT3 taper?
> You won’t find any Bridgeport clones with an MT3 spindle. There are plenty of items you will want thinking about fixturing, holding, measuring etc. that you will use on any mill.
> I have a small Industrolite horizontal/vertical mill that has mt3. Ulma Doc provided some tooling with it When I picked it up from his shop.



Yes it has an MT3 taper. 
There is tooling available, not to the same degree but for my needs at the moment I hope that the ER32 chuck and collets from LMSw will serve ok. 

After some serious research and solid advice from folks here I did splurge on a Glacern vise. I say splurge because with exchange and duty it’s the same cost as a Kurt before all those extra fun charges.


----------



## middle.road

DavidR8 said:


> Yes it has an MT3 taper.
> There is tooling available, not to the same degree but for my needs at the moment I hope that the ER32 chuck and collets from LMSw will serve ok.
> 
> After some serious research and solid advice from folks here I did splurge on a Glacern vise. I say splurge because with exchange and duty it’s the same cost as a Kurt before all those extra fun charges.


The Glacern will be keeping you company for years, and machines to come. . .
The #3MT ER32 will find use on a lathe as well.

What progress are you making on tearing down the mill and inspecting the ways and gibs? (you have so many threads going this old goat can't keep up.)


----------



## DavidR8

middle.road said:


> The Glacern will be keeping you company for years, and machines to come. . .
> The #3MT ER32 will find use on a lathe as well.
> 
> What progress are you making on tearing down the mill and inspecting the ways and gibs? (you have so many threads going this old goat can't keep up.)



Ahh no progress whatsoever. 
Too many other projects on the go. 

I will start a new restoration thread when I start tearing the mill apart 
Resto thread started here:








						Long Chang LC-30A mill resto
					

Hey all, as many of you know, I week or so ago I bought a new-to-me Long Chang LC-30A mill drill.  I bought it from the second owner who bought it from a local machine shop. The fellow I bought it from only used it as a drill press.  It didn't come with any tooling unless the factory drawbar...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




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----------



## mttr_402

I'm  in Manitoba and was looking for a mill. Very little to choose from so end up with a King PDM-30 basically a RF-31 (31N2F(BS)/25. The big thing that is not so good with this unit is a 1 phase motor (220v) and the belts that have to be changed for changing speed. That becomes a pain after a while. So I'm looking to converting it to 220v 3 phase. And oh by the way the motor is  meteric at a 24mm bore.  It says it 1hp but from the current on the label it's more like a 3/4 hp. The cost could be up to 1000 to 1500. Canadian to convert it. Also raising the head puts everything out of calibration. So will have to mod that somehow. Would I buy again, probably not and would go to a  Model: KC-20VS-2 or better less power put more included options, especially variable speed control. That should be a given for a mill. Would have gone with busybeetools but shipping was horrible as there is no store in Manitoba.


----------



## FanMan

mttr_402 said:


> I'm  in Manitoba and was looking for a mill. Very little to choose from so end up with a King PDM-30 basically a RF-31 (31N2F(BS)/25. The big thing that is not so good with this unit is a 1 phase motor (220v) and the belts that have to be changed for changing speed. That becomes a pain after a while. So I'm looking to converting it to 220v 3 phase. And oh by the way the motor is  meteric at a 24mm bore.  It says it 1hp but from the current on the label it's more like a 3/4 hp. The cost could be up to 1000 to 1500. Canadian to convert it. Also raising the head puts everything out of calibration. So will have to mod that somehow.



Look around for an old discarded treadmill and use the DC motor and controller from that... lots of threads here on the subject.

When you raise the head you don't lose "calibration, just the x-zero.  There are ways to deal with that.


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## DavidR8

mttr_402 said:


> I'm in Manitoba and was looking for a mill. Very little to choose from so end up with a King PDM-30 basically a RF-31 (31N2F(BS)/25. The big thing that is not so good with this unit is a 1 phase motor (220v) and the belts that have to be changed for changing speed. That becomes a pain after a while. So I'm looking to converting it to 220v 3 phase. And oh by the way the motor is meteric at a 24mm bore. It says it 1hp but from the current on the label it's more like a 3/4 hp. The cost could be up to 1000 to 1500. Canadian to convert it. Also raising the head puts everything out of calibration. So will have to mod that somehow. Would I buy again, probably not and would go to a Model: KC-20VS-2 or better less power put more included options, especially variable speed control. That should be a given for a mill. Would have gone with busybeetools but shipping was horrible as there is no store in Manitoba.



I just converted my mill to 1.5 hp 3 phase. 
I bought the motor and Teco VFD from e-motorsdirect.ca. 
All in I’m under $600.
I now have forward, reverse and variable speed from about 100 rpm or less to over 2000 rpm all with the handy dial. 
As far as losing position on changing Z height goes, there are easy ways to deal with that. Most simple is putting a dial indicator in place against the spindle before raising it and returning to the same position. 







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bruce Billett

So has anyone tried an *autocollimator* to realign the head back to it's original position?? I have not as yet, Don't have one small enough, but I have used these for years to align all sorts of thing with micron scale precision and it is not difficult. An  *autocollimator* with a radical in it will bring you back to the same mark, doesn't even need to be anything special, out to ~100'. If your mill is bigger than that, well.....? Add a front surface precision ground mirror and you can get down right stupid perpendicularity!
Issues I have run into are, 
1) These things are not free, Although I have found some salvaged from lasers and the like that are not to bad, but none with a right angle viewing head. 
2) Finding a good place to mount it where you can still get your head in to look into it. I suspect an electronic one would work well.
3) Initial mounting. It would have to be mounted parallel to the columb center. Fine alignment would be easy, However determining if it is in fact parallel is an issue.

Any thoughts?

b


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## DavidR8

Bruce Billett said:


> So has anyone tried an *autocollimator* to realign the head back to it's original position?? I have not as yet, Don't have one small enough, but I have used these for years to align all sorts of thing with micron scale precision and it is not difficult. An  *autocollimator* with a radical in it will bring you back to the same mark, doesn't even need to be anything special, out to ~100'. If your mill is bigger than that, well.....? Add a front surface precision ground mirror and you can get down right stupid perpendicularity!
> Issues I have run into are,
> 1) These things are not free, Although I have found some salvaged from lasers and the like that are not to bad, but none with a right angle viewing head.
> 2) Finding a good place to mount it where you can still get your head in to look into it. I suspect an electronic one would work well.
> 3) Initial mounting. It would have to be mounted parallel to the columb center. Fine alignment would be easy, However determining if it is in fact parallel is an issue.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> b


I have absolutely zero knowledge about autocollimators but it sounds interesting.


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## Bruce Billett

Try looking them up on google search.
The basics are it takes the light going thru it and only allows light that is perpendicular to the lens through. So when you look through it all you can see is a target the size of the lens on the end of it. Result is you can see, I have at any rate, Up to about 150 feet just like you were looking at it in front of you. So The manual for the device at 150 feet was just as legible as it was in my hand, Downside? The lens was only about 1/4" Dia. so I could only see the letters in that 1/4" space. Makes for a LONG read.
Another feature is that if you project a light down through it to a front surface mirror should mirror now be perfectly perpendicular it will bounce off at an angle and you can't see it reflecting back. Putting the autocollimator through another front surface mirror so if the light bouncing back is CLOSE to coming back you will see a series of dots that lead off in the direction of error.
Google has much better explanations of this than I do. I only used them. Never designed one.
Hope you find this at least interesting.

b


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