# Renegade Prints (build Has Begun)



## Bill Gruby

What you are seeing is not one days work but rather six days work. I don't like CAD programs so I do everything with pencil and paper. There are 31 separate drawings for the Rail Gun I plan to build. I just finished an hour ago. These are with the recommended changes.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Did you receive the original drawings in electronic or printed form? Are they attainable by the general public, i.e. me?

Did you make changes to suit your personal preferences, or were there deficiencies/mistakes in the originals? Just being nosy Bill...


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## Wreck™Wreck

Your post is unclear, do you dislike a CAD program outputting 30 drawings or dislike spending 6 days constructing manual drawings?


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## Bill Gruby

Let me make it clear, I HATE CAD, period. I find no pleasure in trying to decipher prints before I can build. I have yet to find any standard to them. There is nothing I like better than to sit down and work at the drafting table. For me it's half the project.

 "Billy G"


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## Terrywerm

Manually drawing out a project has a certain therapeutic effect, doesn't it Bill?  I must admit that I do most of my stuff with CAD, but every once in a while it is nice to sit down and do one using 'traditional' methods.


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## Bill Gruby

I find as I am getting older that things can tire me out easily. Not so at the board. I can work for hours and be just as relaxed when done as I was when I started.

"Billy G"


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## Wreck™Wreck

Bill Gruby said:


> Let me make it clear, I HATE CAD, period. I find no pleasure in trying to decipher prints before I can build. I have yet to find any standard to them. There is nothing I like better than to sit down and work at the drafting table. For me it's half the project.
> 
> "Billy G"


Much like yourself I enjoy the design process more then making the actual product for the most part, however I do like the ability to completely change the approach to a project without having to start the drawings from scratch. I also drew everything on large paper in the past, the ability to make drastic changes in the middle of a design is what encouraged me to adopt CAD in the late 80's early 90's. Much software at that time was simply drafting made easy to change at any time. Many old software manufacturers now give away the 2D drafting components. An excellent example is Draft Sight by *Dassault Systèmes, *free and purely a drafting system which should not be confused with Computer Aided Manfacturing.


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## Bill Gruby

Yes Andre, I got the Video. It helped me button this one up. Caliber will be 6 mm PPC. Thank you for the help.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

6mm PPC. Interesting little cartridge. Based off a Russian cartridge if I recall. Very, very accurate too. Perfect.


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## Bill Gruby

It is a necked up Russian .220 Bill. Here is its history.  http://www.chuckhawks.com/6mm_PPC.htm

It has been around for 40 years being designed in 1975.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Full Sized Action and rear rail bearings.  This is all I will show you for now.  LOL

"Billy G"


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## jpfabricator

Sooooo you never said if prints would be available or not?

Sent from somewhere in East Texas Jake Parker


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## Dracen knights

makes me wish I still had my  drafting stuff... I do most of my drawings now in digital form just need a plotter to print them... I am starting to learn a new  program now to make the drafting side easier. I am hoping to learn solidworks next. I'm interested to see how this build turns out... did you draw this on paper of velum?


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## 4GSR

Corner radii's not tangent to the straight lines.  Don't miss those days at all.  What I do miss is designing 2D layouts on the table top board.  Electric eraser and erasing shield was your friend back then.  The good old days.


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## 4GSR

Wreck™Wreck said:


> ....snip... An excellent example is Draft Sight by *Dassault Systèmes, *free and purely a drafting system which should not be confused with Computer Aided Manfacturing.



I own two full seats of Draftsight professional that I use everyday in my business.  It's good, but sometimes I wish I could buy AutoCAD to put in its place.  My dream is to own a seat of Solid Works or Inventor!  Getting off subject, Sorry!

Can't wait for Bill to offer copies of his drawings for his toy for the rest of us to enjoy!


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## cvairwerks

Got many thousands of hours on the board and the tube. Much rather the tube due to the frustration with the board. The last stuff I did on the board was in reverse, on Velum, with German text....15 days of work to do what I would normally accomplish in a day and half on the tube. I can do things in 2D pretty quick, and am a bit slower in 3D.  I kinda miss doing that stuff sometimes.


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## Bill Gruby

I am not sure at this point if the prints will ever be available. I would have to pick and choose who does or does not get them. There is a lot of responsibility involved here. This thing can be dangerous. Time will tell.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

It's ready to start building. Materials were ordered this morning. It ain't cheap that's for sure.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The one above was an eye opener, here are both side and top views. Some parts are left off the top view for clarity.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Very nice. Any estimate on what this bad boy is going to weigh? That base is going to be one serious hunk of metal. Stainless?

What material did you and the gunsmith decide on for the receiver? I'm not familiar with that particular cartridge and it's typical peak pressure, but I assume you have a targeted CUP that is safely above the cartridge's max limits. Are you going to have your receiver piezeo'd (tested with piezoelectric pressure sensors)?


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## Bill Gruby

Most are made from Aluminum Bill. With that said Aluminum weighs approximately 1.56 ozs./ cubic inch. This will bring the gun in at around 65 lbs, Maybe a little more. Anything needed to be done to the barreled action will be done by the Gunsmith as he sees fit.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Ah, OK. I had assumed that you were going to make the receiver and build the barreled action yourself. My bad.


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## Billh50

The main reason I use CAD is because I can store a lot of final prints on a single CD instead of filling a whole filing cabinet with paper prints that may be all marked up with changes made during manufacturing.


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## Bill Gruby

I will be talking to you about the CAD thing Bill if this project goes as planned. As for the Barrel and Receiver, although my equipment is up to snuff it will take a Pto to get the results I am after. I have and recognize my own limitations. Now is a good time for a reality check folks. Before you start thinking OK this is a can do and I'd like to try, get one thing in your mind now, COST.

Materials ------------$700.00

Action --------------- $600.00 to $1350.00

Barrel --------------- $350.00 to $650.00

Trigger -------------$150.00 to ???????

 You could easily top out a $4000.00 or more. Remember I did not add labor. Use $35.00/ hour and you now hit close to $8000.00.

 Do you still want to play??????????

"Bill


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## Billh50

Being an 03 collector and hobby gunsmith I sometimes pick up old barrels and receivers to bring back to life and can attest that parts alone can sometimes make it more costly than one thinks. The more quality you want the more the cost. When I first started collecting I found out fast to do my homework for parts before taking on a project as it can get quite costly. Let alone doing a project like Billy's.


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## derf

Do you plan to shoot this in competition?


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## Bill Gruby

No, not at the moment. Was there some particular reason for the question?

 "Billy G"


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## derf

The only reason I asked is,  there are only 2 events that I know of that shoot rail guns in registered competition.


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## Bill Gruby

OK, thanks for the clarification, I thought maybe you saw something I missed.

 "Billy G"


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## uncle harry

terrywein rm said:


> Manually drawing out a project has a certain therapeutic effect, doesn't it Bill?  I must admit that I do most of my stuff with CAD, but every once in a while it is nice to sit down and do one using 'traditional' methods.




I like both approaches. I did my first manual drawing on my older brother's wood board with T square & triangles when he left engineering school to join the Air Force in '52.  I graduated to a parallel rule in '63 and a drafting machine in '66.  My first CAD experience was on a Mac IIc computer using Claris Cad. I graduated to AutoCad 2000 and jumped to Mechanical Desktop after that.  I currently have my own AutoCad Inventor Light 2012 but only use the 2D program.  Of all of them I liked the Mechanical Desktop the best.  My favorite "get 'er done" approach for simple parts is using gel pens on cocktail napkins or "kitchen" pencils on any handy paper.  For  3D I sketch by hand (cheating all of the time because I have an Industrial Design Degree from an art school)  It's all fun.


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## Bill Gruby

OK folks, after a few inquisitive PM's, this is a Rail Gun. Thank you Andre for the link.






 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

I was a Scout in the Corps and later did pretty well at the thousand yard line at 29 Stumps, but something about all this mechanical stuff just doesn't seem right. Doesn't mean I wouldn't try it, but I thought I was cheating when I had a sling wrapped around my left arm to steady the rifle.


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## clevinski

Thanks for sharing the video, Bill... now I understand why they're called "rail guns"!


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## Bill Gruby

The only thing that only thing holds the Barrel, Action and Top Slide on the rails is gravity. You can lift the upper half off the rails at  any time you wish.

"Billy G"


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## wrmiller

So the rearward movement of the action is just reaction vs. mass? What returns the top slide to battery, gravity? or is there a mechanical construct that controls or limits movement of the top slide?


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## Bill Gruby

Both good questions and they raise a third question. What stops the slide from going too far forward after the shot? The first question you answered yourself although some use rubber bands, surgical tubing, etc. chord to control the rearward recoil and forward motion. The next question, most just push he thing back. I am incorporating Springs for recoil and forward gain and a stop to bring it back to zero.
 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

I think I like your idea better than the rubber bands. 

Repeatability of "bring it back to zero" or back into forward battery will be critical for accuracy of follow up shots. I of course assume you know this and already have a plan.


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## dlhoulton

I think I seen on some of the pictures and videos what looked like limit travel stops both front and rear. On the pictures I sent to you it looks like they used a metal stop up front and non metal in rear.  Also the rubber band and spring return were used on a few. Some it just looked like they used there thump on there trigger hand to gently push it back to forward position.


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## Bill Gruby

Yup, we has a plan. Zero will be Zero after every shot. Five more corrected prints to go and viola, poof, done. 81 hours of drafting and correcting so far.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

That's all folks -- Done deal -- Fini, take your pick. It's been a total of 85 hours and the final prints (31 pages and 1 full sized assembly drawing) are done. I wasn't going to finish the last one till tomorrow and I never push the envelope. To close to stop. Now I have tomorrow free. Made one print with a couple of crooked lines. I was doing them again when the wife says what's crooked, it's an election year. I nearly peed myself. Gotta luv em.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Just for laughs I did the math. At $35.00/Hr. I think I'm over budget. 

"Billy G"


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## Billh50

Isn't it amazing how quick it all adds up ? You start a drawing and figure it should only take so long. Then you look it over and find you need to change something. Then when you figure how much time you really have into something and you realize how much it would have cost to have it done. And then you realize you haven't even bought material yet.


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## wrmiller

This is interesting. Not to get too off topic Bill, but just last week one of my engineers was tasked with estimating how long to make a slight change to some of our test code files. His estimate was based on just typing the code. When I then pointed out the retrieval, load, locate where, write the code, etc., etc., his eyes widened and he then quadrupled his time estimate. He is now very glad I didn't just take his initial estimate at face value as we were talking hundreds of files...


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## wrmiller

OK, Bill G., it's all your fault for getting me thinking about competition shooting again. So I just had to order a STI 2011 frame and slide kit. I figure I have till spring to get it built.


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## Bill Gruby

That's cool, and pricey.  .38 Super, .40 S&W or .45 ACP, which one????

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

My wife has deemed it necessary to change the name. I am going with her suggested name, "Renegade".

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Bill Gruby said:


> That's cool, and pricey.  .38 Super, .40 S&W or .45 ACP, which one????
> 
> "Billy G"



I am planning to build two top ends. The first will be a .40 S&W for the Stock Class, either 5 or 6" in length. The second will be either 9x23 or .38 Super for Open Class. I need to do a bit more research on the 9x23, as that wasn't in play when I was competing, but I do like the idea of getting rid of that semi-rimmed .38 super. Very fussy cartridge to tune magazines for.

If I get real ambitious, I may add a third top end which would be a compensated 10mm magnum setup designed for maximum power reloads yet still function correctly with factory ammo.

All top ends will use wilson-style ramped barrels to eliminate possible feeding issues with these different calibers.

A friend who works with wood has already agreed to make a nice felt-lined hardwood case for this rig.


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## wrmiller

I honestly don't know. It's been about 10 years since playing with/shooting one of these, and I'd like to think the magazines have gotten better. I would suspect that I would be better to use the .40 and 10mm in the same mags. One of the things I am unsure of right now is if the .40 magazines will handle the OAL of the 10mm. If not, that would kill the 10mm top end.


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## Bill Gruby

I believe the 10mm is shorter. If so it will not work. Like in Nam. they could use our 7.62 ammo but we could not use theirs.

 "Billy G"


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## Dracen knights

Actually 10mm is longer than 40 by about an 1/8".  10mm will not work in 40 mags...at least nine I have seen as all the 40 mags have a built in spacer in the rear of the mag. But a 40 Will for in a 10mm mag.

I'm a very big 10mm fan.


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## Bill Gruby

I stand corrected, Thank you for the info.

 "Billy G"


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## Dracen knights

No problem I just wanted to make sure the info was correct as soon as I saw it.  Plus as I mentioned 10mm is my favorite round...  Would love to see this done in 10mm


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## wrmiller

Are you talking about STI magazines in particular, or magazines in general. Not sure I ever saw a spacer in the back of a STI magazine, but like I said previously, it's been a decade so my data is definitely not current. 

EDIT: To continue this, we should start another thread so we quit stepping on Bill's.


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## Bill Gruby

I think you could do a rail in 10mm. Let me get this one done and see then.

 "Billy G"


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## Dracen knights

Well I don't have any Sti mags I currently have a cz75 in 10mm and a 1911 single stack in 10mm and I have seen both in 40 and both have a ridge or spacer in the back of the mag to move the round a little forward if it's a 40 where the 10mm does not have the it.


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## wrmiller

Delta Elite?


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## Dracen knights

Nope mine 100% custom built. Its currently out getting satin Nickel plated...  A friend ( lisc. FFL is doing it for me for nothing)  let's just say this is no where near your common 1911... Not in looks anyway... And pretty much every part is one off... Other than the FCG


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## wrmiller

Bill Gruby said:


> I think you could do a rail in 10mm. Let me get this one done and see then.
> 
> "Billy G"



10mm works in a single stack 1911, but is near the limits of the pistol's ability to extract/eject/strip/feed. I'm not sure the STI mags are deep enough front to back. Many years ago I was the first person to show up at a USPSA sectional with a high-capacity, unlimited pistol (Rob Leatham was still blowing up 9mms trying to make major...) based on the early aluminum para-ordnance frame. Only available in .45 at the time, (.40 S&W didn't exist yet) I couldn't get 10mm to fit in the mags, so I trimmed all of my 10mm brass to centimeter and shot the match with a wildcat.  Managed to beat Rob, a paid professional at that time, on two stages. The word got out fast. Once the steel para frames became available, they started popping up at matches all over the place. Then Rob discovered .38 Super and the Open Class started getting real expensive after that.


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## Bill Gruby

We are now at some sort of standardization on the prints. The are done in ink now and ready for Billh50 to put them in CAD format.

 "Billy G"


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## Billh50

Billy G,
Anytime after this weekend will be fine to get together. Will only be busy on Tuesday (testing done then ). Also if you can scan the 81/2 x 11's and send them I can start on those right away first.


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## Bill Gruby

I'm in no rush Bill. This is uncharted territory for me. All has to be perfect before starting. Machining itself will only be about one month if this part is done correctly. I'm trying to head off problems before they happen. I will be in contact the end of next week. It's a busy week for me because of the Marine Corps Birthday (Tuesday) and Veterans Day (Wednesday).

 "Billy G"


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## Billh50

No problem.....we can even do one page at a time as you build it. That way any last minute changes can be done before we finalize.


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## wrmiller

Bill Gruby said:


> I'm in no rush Bill. This is uncharted territory for me. All has to be perfect before starting. Machining itself will only be about one month if this part is done correctly. I'm trying to head off problems before they happen. I will be in contact the end of next week. It's a busy week for me because of the Marine Corps Birthday (Tuesday) and Veterans Day (Wednesday).
> 
> "Billy G"



And a early 'Happy Birthday Marine'. 

(says one jarhead to another...)


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## Bill Gruby

We will be 240 years old this year. Semper Fi Bill

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

ooh rah!


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## Billh50

Bill G,
Just need to add material and thickness to following pdf.


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## Bill Gruby

You have it spot on Bill, Thank-you. There will be a Materials List with everything needed.


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## Billh50

OK.....anytime you need the others done just let me know.


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## wrmiller

Love the dimension format. The way some people do it nowadays makes it difficult for an old school guy to follow. Not these.


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## Bill Gruby

We are rapidly closing in on a start date. This one is the scope and mount. You don't need to do this one Bill, it is for my personal info only.

 That was a bust, it's too high, won't work.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

1 inch 40 TPI Tap and Die arrived today. These are to cut the Micrometer Adj. threads for the bearings. One step closer.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Yup, we started, no turning back now. Have to wait for the Base Plate (1.5X10X36  6061.) Will make all parts that mount to it first. This is the Elevation Adjuster. 1-40 threads being tapped. Starter hole is .9756.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Cool... (picture Bill pulling up a chair with a rather large bowl of popcorn)  

May I ask why you didn't single-point these?


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## Bill Gruby

The male thread will be single-pointed Bill. The internal was easier done with the tap. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Actually I was tooooo lazy. 

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Not a whole lot done today but it is spot on dimension wise. I now have a threaded blank and tomorrow I hope to get it to look like the print, emphasis on hope. Ball to Ball should equal .010 up or down. Ball to point should equal .005 up or down. One full turn equals .100 up or down.

"Billy G"


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## dlhoulton

Love watching build threads. Keep the updates/progress coming!!!


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## Bill Gruby

If a mistake is made I show it to you. I didn't have a heavy hold on the part in the rotary table while milling. I got in a hurry and took toooo deep of a cut. The part spun and the cutter pulled the part out of the table. Moral --- If you are in a hurry, walk away and return when whatever you hurried for is done. I put the part back in the lathe and cut .070 off the OD to clean it up. Not that much harm done.

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

OOPS.


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## Billh50

That happens to us all at least once.


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## wrmiller

It's not like I've never done something like that...  

Not sure I'd have the guts to show it here though. You're my hero Bill.


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## Bill Gruby

I show my mistakes for good reason Bill. The new guy needs to be reassured that none of us is above error. I would like to think they get a kick out of seeing our screw-ups.

Just two flats to go and then ten 8-32 tapped holes. Yup, that's a left spiraled end mill. I used it cause it was a new one. Looks like I'm a little short on the meat to get two identical flats. Hmmmmmm. Fear not, for there is enough. (I think)

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Bet ya thought it was gonna be a disaster. Yuk-Yuk-Yuk. Ten flats within .001 of each other. If I had changed the rotary table to index it would have been spot on.  Now to drill and tap.

 Save me some popcorn Bill.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Drilling and tapping for studs today. Also  hope to rough cut the arms that will fit on the studs. See you later.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Ten drilled and tapped hole and we have studs in place. I am using studs here rather tha threading the inserted handles for strength. I  am being cautios because this adjustment nut must be capable of raising or lowering the upper slide table that could feasibly reach 60 lbs. in overall weight.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Some days you just have to fight. Slow, very slow today. One arm roughed in


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## Bill Gruby

Would someone please explain to me how putting in a new front door requires 5 rooms of wall to wall carpet, painting the walls in 3 rooms and painting the ceilings in 7 rooms?????

"Billy G"


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## thayne_1

When you find the answer to that let me know please.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Billh50

Bill....it's kinda like that new lathe needs more tooling and a fresh paint job.


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## Bill Gruby

3 arms to length. I want to get all 10 to this point today. Tomorrow the threaded ball ends will be here. Once they are fitted, into the tumbling barrel it all goes for 12 hours.

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Bill Gruby said:


> Would someone please explain to me how putting in a new front door requires 5 rooms of wall to wall carpet, painting the walls in 3 rooms and painting the ceilings in 7 rooms?????
> 
> "Billy G"



Bill, I think it's the same principle that every project requires a new tool, it makes no difference that the new tool has nothing to do with the project.


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## Bill Gruby

Yup, happens all the time, just like that Jim.

 Now we have 10 arms, all identical. I need to drill and tap the outer end for short studs. I want to just screw the balls on when they get here tomorrow.

 "Billy G"


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## uncle harry

JimDawson said:


> Bill, I think it's the same principle that every project requires a new tool, it makes no difference that the new tool has nothing to do with the project.



In Washington DC it's considered a rider on a Bill.  The bill becomes larger than the cost of installing a new door.


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## Terrywerm

Bill, either I am missing something here or you are using some different mathematics than I am used to. 
With 40 threads per inch for the elevation screw and nut:
- One turn of the elevation nut would change the elevation by .025" not .100"
- Ball to ball would be .0025"
- Ball to point would be .00125"

Maybe it's not that big of a deal, but since you had gone through all the math on your prints I thought I should point out the error before you get any further. At ten threads per inch, your calculations would have been correct.


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## Bill Gruby

You are correct Terry. I used the math for the other way I had planned to do this. My bad and nice catch. I went to the 40 TPI to get the ultra fine movement. 10 TPI was my first choice.

 "Billy G"


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## Terrywerm

When I worked on packaging equipment I made many machine modifications that utilized micrometer style adjustments and I saw the math "error" right away. I agree with your choice of 40TPI for the much finer adjustment capabilities, but somehow I missed the point in the thread where you changed your mind. Looking good so far!


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## Bill Gruby

I did not document he change Terry. I forgot to and just moved on.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Changed the gears on the lathe to cut 40 TPI and cut a test thred to check the fit. Perfect. I will cut all three bearing towers tomorrow.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

9 to go. Mail was late yesterday. Now I'm a day off schedule. Dang.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

I can't catch a break here. Too many things being done at once. New front door, etc. Well 6 are done.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Done -- Take it apart, plug the threads and into the tumbler for 12 hours usin crushed Walnut shells for grit.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Very nice. 

Where did you source the balls?


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## Bill Gruby

http://www.bearingballstore.com

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Elevation Tower is next. 2.750 dia. 2.625 high. 1.000 thru hole and a tapped 3/8-24 side hole plus profiling. I know ---  profiling is against the law.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

OD, height, starter hole and profile done. Need full bore dia. and threaded side hole then this part hits the tumbling barrel. Won't happen today, gotta start painting the rooms.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

1 inch bore complete. Just the 3/8-24 threaded hole to go. Paint no come in. Breaks my heart ( not)

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Tomorrow we start the bearing holder/elevation adj.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Nice easy 2 hours. 1"-40 TPI single cut. All that is left on the Elevation Adj. Tower is the lock screw. Time for second coffee.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The beginning of the decorative locking screw. 3/8-24 die cut threads. The head will be pressed on and be held fast with lock tite when done. This bolt will serve two purposes one, to lock the adj. and two, it will serve as a reference point in making the adjs. A small flat (1/4 wide full length ) must also be cut on the bearing holder for this unit to work properly.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Your thoughts please. This looks about right for the larger diameter of the handle. It is just a couple of bushings pushed over each other. The final piece will be brass and fluted lengthwise, not knurled. Pic #! is 3/4 inch, pic #2 is 5/8 inch. Which one?

"Billy G"


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## T Bredehoft

Large diameter may lead to over-torquing the snugging screw.  That's (snugging) all you want, isn't it? Go with the 5/8


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## Bill Gruby

Tom, it carries little value in holding the bearing riser in place. It serves to hold it from spinning while adjusting more than anything else. The weight of the top slide (50 lbs.) pushing down should take care of that. Thank you for the insight.

"Billy G"


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## wrmiller

The 'scale' of the 5/8" piece blends well with the sizes of the other pieces within it's immediate vicinity IMO. 

Hey, you asked for opinions...


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## Bill Gruby

Thank you. 5/8 it is. Cosmetics is important. Thank you Bill.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

I have had my HF 5 lb. Tumbling barrel for about three years now and never used it. I even have forgotten why I bought it in the first place. I tried it yesterday with great success. The bushing to the right was almost black . After a few hours it has a nice clean finish on it. The smaller one in the middle is unfinished. The aluminum piece on the left came out with a fine brush like finish. I am more than satisfied with the outcome. I purposely put some tool marks in the aluminum and they are all gone. Corners are also still crisp.

 The Brass Elevation Wheel parts are being done now. I will check them in about 4 hours.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Hey Bill, would a vibratory tumbler work as well as your drum? I need to get a new one anyway, for shell casings and such, and was wondering if I should just order a second one for small machined parts?


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## Bill Gruby

OOOPS, that's what I have Bill. To me a tumbler is a tumbler. HF has this one on sale now.

"Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Thanks. I'll take that as a 'yes'.


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## Bill Gruby

Yup, it's a yes. Very little noise. You cannot hear it upstairs from the cellar.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

Three lock nuts for the Leveling Feet -- 1/2-20 TPI. Need to flute these on the OD and they are done. Base  Plate is due this week.

 "Billy G"


----------



## JimDawson

Looking good Bill!  
Can't wait to see the rest.


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## Bill Gruby

Thank you. This assembly will be done tomorrow. Out of the tumbler nice and clean.  Who would have believed it took 45 separate parts to create this assembly. Just minor cosmetics to go. I don't rate HF very high but the Vibration Tumbler is right up there. Well worth the expenditure. Around $60.00.

"Billy G"


----------



## JimDawson

I have one of their 18# vibrators, it seems to work OK, I haven't killed it yet.


----------



## Bill Gruby

Toms' post on over torqueing got me to thinking. The side bolt on the Elevation Assembly is really only there to hold the part from turning during adjustment. Yes it can be tightened but it is not needed for that, the weight of the top slide pushing down will do that. Slightly tight is what is needed.

With that said I have decided to leave the head polished only and not fluted. This will let my fingers slip on it if over torqueing occurs.

"Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Purty.....


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## uncle harry

Bill Gruby said:


> Toms' post on over torqueing got me to thinking. The side bolt on the Elevation Assembly is really onl there to hold the part from turning during adjustment. Yes it can be tightened but it is not needed for that, the weight of the top slide pushing down will do that. Slightly tight is what is needed.
> 
> With that said I have decided to leave the head polished only and not fluted. This will let my fingers slip on it if over torqueing occurs.
> 
> "Billy G"
> View attachment 114900



I like your "organic" slip clutch.


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## Bill Gruby

Got it by the short hairs and polishing it out. The base is out to 600 grit. All will go to 15oo grit by days end. That will put the Elevation Control to bed. Then it's on to the Windage Control.

 "Billy G"


----------



## FOMOGO

Quite the piece of art there. Reminiscent of an old  ships anchor capstan. Mike


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## dlhoulton

Bill, any progress on your project? Hope you haven't abandon it!!


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## Bill Gruby

Sorry to report, no real progress. Remember, this is one of a kind, changes are made at the drop of a hat. Also, I have not and will not abandon this project. I love doing something I have not done before. Thread on the riser was changed from 40TPI to 20TPI for strength reasons.

"Billy G"


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## dlhoulton

That's good to know. Fully understand that these are "one of a kind" builds and the drop of a hat change thing. Just anxious to see your progress and your quality work.


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## Bill Gruby

OK, back at it. Not much to see yet, these are parts for the Windage and Rear Roller Assembly.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

In prototyping errors are inevitable. This one is a big one. Counting my time it is a $256 error. Such is life. I am redesigning it today.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

OK, you saw the error and what it cost. Don't care I'm not counting except for Laughs. This is part of the new windage assembly. It's only just getting underway. Nothing is on paper for this yet. Time will tell. LOL

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The Windage Cross Head is just now starting to take shape. I would like to get farther today but the little woman says otherwise. Time to hit the Mall, YUCK.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

Only needed 40 minutes more. Me thinks she took too long in the Throne Room.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

Today I start with the Crossbar and go till I can't go any longer. I am falling behind my schedule. Bad time of the year for a project of this magnitude. LOL

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Falling behind schedule?!?! 

Bill, you're at that point in life where schedules shouldn't matter anymore. And hopefully, I will get there too one of these days...


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## Bill Gruby

No schedule matters anymore Bill. Just threw that in for laughs. I don't punch a clock anymore. LOL Moving along very smoothly.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

UH-OH --- Wife told me to change from my work cloths. I did and sat down here looking out the front window. Low and behold it's the Grinch, my sister-in-law is here. That's it for me, no  shop time while she is here. According to her a man is not supposed to have a hobby. See ya later fellas. Dang it all.

 "Billy G"


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## ScrapMetal

I think I've heard of your sister-in-law somewhere before....




Have a Merry Christmas,

-Ron


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## dave2176

Bill Gruby said:


> According to her a man is not supposed to have a hobby.
> 
> "Billy G"



I'm not close to retirement yet but know many who have been retired for years. It seems to me that something to keep you busy after retirement keeps you healthy longer. I have a lot of friends well into their 80s who keep busy with a variety of interest from genealogy to woodturning and they are going strong. Some of those we lost too young wanted to sit in their rocker and watch the world go by. Keep your mind and body busy Billy; it's good for all of us. I've enjoyed watching and learning from your fine work. Thank you.
Dave


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## uncle harry

Bill Gruby said:


> UH-OH --- Wife told me to change from my work cloths. I did and sat down here looking out the front window. Low and behold it's the Grinch, my sister-in-law is here. That's it for me, no  shop time while she is here. According to her a man is not supposed to have a hobby. See ya later fellas. Dang it all.
> 
> "Billy G"



It would seem that her opinion smacks of hipocracy. Apparently she has a hobby, irritating the #e!! out of everybody.


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## Bill Gruby

The young lady is 75 years old and never been married. She lives with he cat in a 7 room home. The place is immaculate all the time.  She has a good heart, it's just in the wrong place. LOL

  "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The three bolts in the crossbar were for location purposes only. They are removed now and replaced by a pivot point. The three bearings that comprise part of the roller system for the rails form a triangle. This triangle has set dimensions that cannot change during firing adjustments so the crossbar must pivot on its center to hold these dimensions. If they did not, the top rail slide would jump right off the rails and into your lap.

 "Billy G"


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## uncle harry

Bill Gruby said:


> The young lady is 75 years old and never been married. She lives with he cat in a 7 room home. The place is immaculate all the time.  She has a good heart, it's just in the wrong place. LOL
> 
> "Billy G"




Hey.   I'll be 75 in two months so I can understand some of this.  Still, I have lots of hobbies so I'll side with you.


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## Bill Gruby

Enough about her for now. She's sleeping and you know you let sleeping dogs lie.  LOL Getting closer to the end of the windage adjustment. Rods that it rides on will be done today, given enough time.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Done for today. Getting a little crowded with all the parts on the desk. Tomorrow the thru holes get drilled .500 and bushed to .375.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Good things come to those who wait. Mary wanted a glass of Sherry, no alcohol is allowed in my house. We struck a deal and all I need to do is add adjustment screws an clean the whole thing up and it's done. Yes they are bushed for smoothness.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Clearances adjusted, 3/8-16 all thread used for clearance checks only. These will be Brass when completed. We are missing closer now.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Made two more knobs to match. They will be done over in Brass later. My day is over. They're home again. LOL

  "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

My apology to those that I said I would send the initial prints to. This has evolved so much that they are rendered useless. Again, I apologize for this.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Finally found a bearing supplier/manufacturer outside of China. I don't use their bearings unless absolutely necessary. "Omnitrack" from England has exactly what I need. I need a Transfer Bearing with a .500 Ball that has more  than .125 of the ball visible.  Their 9000 Series is the perfect one. It has a 100 lb. load capacity. All Stainless components. Pricey but worth it.

 "Billy G"

http://www.omnitrack.com/us/


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## Bill Gruby

A little more time and elbow grease and it will look spiffy clean. If nothing else this railgun will be a showpiece. Might be a candidate for Cabin Fever 2017. LOL The Brass Round will become the 4 new handles.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

.875X2.000 Brass Handle Blanks. This is gonna be puuuurty.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Four knobs with their profile and threads finished. Now to the mill and eight flutes. 1/4  inch bullnose cutter .050 deep. Then all that's lest is to polish them.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Lots of goodies came today. Bearings, Brass All-Thread more Aluminum. This is going to be a showpiece for sure. I was going to anodize Green but this would look wicked in Black.


Billy G"


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## dave2176

Bill Gruby said:


> ... but this would look wicked in Black.
> 
> Billy G"



It sure would with the polished brass.


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## dlane

Yup it's gona be a showpiece


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## Bill Gruby

OK folks, had to back up a bit. I anticipated the bearing size from the print. UH-OH , should have known better, the print only showed one size, not mine. You can see from side by side pics the modification I had to make. I live for this stuff. "ROTFLMBO" The new bearing holder is the old one with the top removed ti the threads. Then it was faced flat and a .500 hole bored 1.5 deep. The new top is pressed into the .500 hole.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

After a little more machining and modifying all three bearings are correctly mounted. Piece of cake. NOT!!!!

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The original center carrier was made from materials I had here. It was three pieces of 1X1.5X4. They were pinned abd bolted together. I didn't like it from the beginning. I made a new one from a 1.5X3X4.5 piece of 7075. Much better and I feel better about it. To the right is the old 3 piece unit.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

After more thought it was decided to convert to a single lock on the carrier. It will save a few precious seconds in competition.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Still more modifications. The old side plates (Right) are .250" to short in height. This was not seen till the windage assembly was checked against the Elevation Adjustment. Not a problem as you can see.  LOL

"Billy G"





View attachment 118274


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## Bill Gruby

Not much done today, I'm taking my time prettying it up. Swapped out those ugly wing nuts for nice flat ones. Tomorrow should see the end of this pare.

 "Billy G"


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## 34_40

Not sure how I missed this thread!  But I just read the whole thing and got all caught up.
Bill, As always - you give me an education and a smile..   

Thanks for sharing.


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## Bill Gruby

Thank you for the kind words. You are a glutton for punishment going thru all 9 pages. Stand by, this has a long way to go.

 "Billy G"


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## 34_40

I'll be glued to the monitor awaiting an update!

(only when my sister in-law is here!)


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## Bill Gruby

Now we go crazy. I found a Moore&Wright 0-1 inch micrometer head that is 2 inches in diameter with a .001 resolution.. It will replace the right hand adjustment screw. Also a dial indicator will be added to the right side. Why, because I can. LOL

"Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Bill Gruby said:


> Why, because I can. LOL
> "Billy G"



The best of reasons.


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## Bill Gruby

Bill- There are times when it gets tough to finish a part up. My mind is always at least one step ahead. Then, like in this case, the question of "What If" dominates the process. It's tough bein me, but somebody has to do it.  LOL

"Billy G"


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## wrmiller

In that regard, we are more alike than not.


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## Bill Gruby

Now we have an indicator to see how far we really move.  LOL

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The knobs and lock nuts have been upgraded. Just elbow grease to go.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

NOTE TO SELF:

  Sister in law is ready to go home. I said I would be right there. She said NOW, I said feel free to use the phone to call a taxi. Wife gave me a real snooty look and said what if she goes with her. You ready --- I said I'd pay for the taxi and a healthy tip to the driver. Then the fight began.  ROTFLMAO.

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

You gotta lot o guts Bill!


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## Bill Gruby

Jim --- Some things just beg to be said.  LOL

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

As I said before, we are more alike than not.


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## Bill Gruby

Micrometer Head came today. I bored the right side to .500 and now just a .750 counter bore and set screw are needed. I can do no more to this assembly to get it any more accurate in settings

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Going to be interesting to see how thousandths relates to inches at 1000 yards.


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## Bill Gruby

Jim --- while it would be interesting it won't happen. Rail Guns are only used at to distances, 100 or 200 yards.

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Bill Gruby said:


> Jim --- while it would be interesting it won't happen. Rail Guns are only used at to distances, 100 or 200 yards.
> 
> "Billy G"



Is that all?  I figured with the fine adjustment you have there, that those were for long range shooting.  At that range, with good ammo,  you should be able to have pretty close to bullet size groups then.


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## 34_40

Thanks for the updates Bill. I'm still here watching, learning and laughing along..

You be a brave man treating SWMBO thata way!


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## Bill Gruby

Sophie and I have been married for 45 years now. April 4th will mark 46 years. We have traded on liners like that the whole time. I remember one when I had a few machinist friends over for coffee. The handle broke on one of her pans. She told me I was not mechanically inclined enough to fix it because it only lasted 9 years from the last time I fixed it. She then asked if someone else could fix it this time. I got razzed for a while about that one. Marriage is give and take. Sometimes you win, sometimes you get the short end. It's supposed to be that way.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Locked in place, no more gap. Looking good. Now for a couple of days off. I will resume on Monday.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

I like your thinking on the micrometer.


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## Bill Gruby

Did I say Monday? The mail brought the new Bearings (Left) Much tighter class than the Flanged Bearings (Right). This meant new towers would be needed. Old towers in the center.  Done all but the Bearing Pockets. Got new Dial Indicators yesterday also.

 "Billy G"


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## rwm

This is looking cool. The micrometer head is really sharp.
R


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## Bill Gruby

Thank you. New Bearings and Towers installed. Shop is now closed till tomorrow.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

All parts for the Windage Assembly are now made . The last part was the Gage

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Looking good Bill.   What's next?


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## Bill Gruby

As soon as the Aluminum arrives Bill, the main base is next. This will tie together everything we have made so far.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

Perked the gage mount up a tad, much better.

 "Billy "


----------



## wrmiller

I'm thinking you need a little more bling here Sir...


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## Bill Gruby

Larger dia. and shorter these knobs are for the leveling feet. Aluminum for the base is 9 days overdue now. Just picking at things to keep busy. Without the base I am extremely close to a standstill.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

After talking with shooters of these things it is a fact that the tighter you lock the elevation tower the tighter the groups will be. Soooo,  we swapped out the front locking bolt and knob for a larger  one to get more torque. We also added a lock nut to keep it from backing off.

 "Billy G"


----------



## JimDawson

Bigger is usually better


----------



## Bill Gruby

Weight transmits  rigidity and that translates to accuracy.

"Billy G"


----------



## wrmiller

Hey Bill, I see that your locking bolt is brass. Is the surface it 'locks' steel or aluminum? Just wondering about surface damage when you crank that locking bolt down.


----------



## Bill Gruby

The locking bolt has a nylon button on the end. I copied it from others. They have no trouble with slippage or damage.

Now the Bad/Good news, my supplier decided he did not want to cut the 12 foot long piece of Aluminum. Translation -- He found a buyer for the whole 12 foot piece. This will prolong the agony for a week or so. I found another source , called and ordered a piece 1.5 X 10 X 36 for less than $175.00 S&H included.

http://store.buymetal.com/

"Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

Schools in boys and girls. This is for you new people that have never seen Adjustable Parallels used.  The cross slide must be centered. The Mike Head is set at .500, this is going to act as "0" setting. It will give me plus or minus .500 movement of range for the Cross Slide. At .500 the distance (right side) is .617. To maintain the .500 movement this must remain. Now the other side needs to be moved to get to .617. The smaller distance at this point measured with the Parallel and Calipers is .401. Subtract the .401 from .617 and you get .216. That .216 is how much you need to move the left side out to get to .617. Once moved you will be perfectly centered. It will be moved by lengthening the two guide rods .216 inches. Now you need another tool huh.

"Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

The Mike side (fixed) is still .617. Fitting the new Ground SS rods brought the other side to .618 and that is where it will stay.

"Billy G"


----------



## 34_40

Good stuff Bill.  Thanks as always for the updates too.


----------



## Bill Gruby

4 days - Order to Delivery. I'm impressed. 1.5 X 10 X 39 7075 T3.

"Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Nice hunk of metal you have there Sir.


----------



## Bill Gruby

Came FedEx. Weighs 65.45 lbs. I haven't machined anything tis big in years. Gonna be a trip. Need to call my buddy Tim, up the street. My 8520 only has a 6X24 table., he has a huge Bridgeport.

 "Billy G"


----------



## wrmiller

I was kinda wondering how you were going to do this on the 8520. Figured you'd come up with something to surprise me yet again.


----------



## JimDawson

Bring it on over Bill, that will fit right on my mill.  BTW, it's about 60° and sunny here today.  Have shop door open and working in the sunshine.


----------



## Bill Gruby

You ain't ready for this Bill.  Since the longest continuous cut on the Base is 16.000 inches I will be using my 8520 mill to make it. I will build a sub-table 12 X 24 inches 1.5 inches thick fron plywood and bolt it to the table. It should be rigid enough to do the job. Stand-by for updates on this.

 "Billy G"


----------



## wrmiller

16", that's it? Piece of cake.  

(I've done 24" easily enough, but wouldn't want to do much more)


----------



## ogberi

I betcha Mark F could do it on his Burke.


----------



## Bill Gruby

Yup, I need the aux. table only because of the 10 inch width and it needs to be angled to get the straight cut. Flip it over and do the other side. I ordered a new indexable  face/side cutting shell mill 2.5 diameter 6 inserts.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

I'd like to watch as Mark just sets it up. You would have to set it on edge and angle one end up. That translates to the first corner to be cut is over 12 inches in the air. No throat room I'm afraid. Plus at 65 lbs. that piece would be extremely difficult to handle standing only on it's 1.5 inch edge.

"Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

Aux. Table (Engineering Plate)  is bolted down now and the new table measures .500X10X24. Almost ready to go. Just need a sacrificial piece to go betweed the work and table.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

The white template is the full size of the base. It dwarfs the table. The template ios to help figuring out whae This is gonna be fun.

"Billy G"


----------



## rwm

I'm pretty sure that voids the warranty on your mill...  
R


----------



## dirty tools

I would love to get a copy of the prints.
for a long time I have been interested in making a rail gun put don't know how or where to begin.
Good luck making it.


----------



## Bill Gruby

I was only gone from the shop for a couple of hours. I get back and the table is now 15X33. I will get the piece cut to 10X27 and we will be ready to go.

"Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

Metal meats metal for the first time. All is in position. but not installed. Had to have a peek. LOL

"Billy G"


----------



## wrmiller

Very nice Bill! Really looking forward to seeing this thing when it's done. They'll be drooling all over it at the range.


----------



## Bill Gruby

One or two more days cleaning and re-arranging and it's back to work. I put this off way too long. LOL I found three machines that need to be rebuilt.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

Wow, so many things going bad at once. I expected to be back at this project by now. Son #4 just took the bull gear out on the little 6 inch Craftsman/Dunlop. It will have to wait.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Billh50

Bill Gruby said:


> One or two more days cleaning and re-arranging and it's back to work. I put this off way too long. LOL I found three machines that need to be rebuilt.
> 
> "Billy G"



I know the feeling. Been putting off some straightening in my shop area too long. I started to organize and found 3 projects I really need to finish up. It gets a bit overwhelming at times. But if I plug away for a caouple days I should have everything straightened out so I can finish up at least 2 of the projects. That is if the vehicles stay running long enough I can get in the shop.


----------



## Bill Gruby

Wow, another 6 to 8 week wait for the barreled action to be made. Long line I guess.  LOL  That's OK, I can wait. Found an old project to resurrect. Guess what it is Gator.  LOL

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby

I am afraid that this thread must come to an abrupt end, at least for 5 years. Tomorrow, May 12th my son is being released from a half way house. He will be staying at my home for the next five years. No weapons can be on the premises for the time he is on probation. Sorry folks, the fun is over for some time to come. Please accept my humblest apologies for this.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Steve Shannon

No apologies needed. I hope that everything works out for your son and you. 


 Steve Shannon


----------



## derf

What action and barrel did you go with?


----------



## 34_40

Times two Bill!  Take care of family first, we'll be here when the time comes to start this back up..
Can you tell I'm an optimist? LOL..


----------

