# Welding for dummies thread?



## joe_m (Feb 7, 2013)

I've been ready to buy a welding outfit for years but I keep chickening out because the only experience I have in welding is H.S. shop class (spot welder) and - many years ago - using someone's oxy-acetylene torch to cut a big piece of metal in two.

Now I'm back to wanting my own but don't know what to get. Any chance on starting a thread that covers MIG/TIG/Oxy/MAPP/Plasma and anything else I might encounter out there? Kind of like the CNC thread that starts at 0 knowledge? 

If not - then how about a simple suggestion for me. What is the cheapest and most efficient for my particular needs:

 1. I want to build a few (4) woodworking lathe rests - basically a metal bar or angle iron with a notch ground on it, and a round bar goes on that notch. The weld has to be super strong and since woodturning is a zen thing, it's got to be pretty.
2. I would like to be able to rough cut some big things - maybe once a year - but I'm scared to keep a giant tank of oxygen around because 1) I know it will be 10 years before I empty it and I don't want to be stuck with an out-of-date tank that nobody will fill and 2) I live in the desert and I'm paranoid about things that can get hot and go boom.
3. I want to be able to heat-treat some tool steel for plane blades or home-made chisels. I've got a small propane forge but want something bigger/faster. 
4. I have an ATV trailer - the el-cheapo Home Depot type with the big swing-down ramp on back. I want to cut that ramp (I could use a saw) down to size, weld square tubes along the outside and make sides that would drop into those tubes so I can use it to haul bigger stuff to the dump but lift the sides out when I don't want to use them.
5. I don't have any neighbors but just in case, I want to be able to take all the ugly rusted stuff laying by the shed and if I get a neighbor that pisses me off I want to weld it all together into a 12' tall piece of cr@p that I will call "art". Something hideous, I'll probably paint parts of it dayglo orange and fluorescent pink and it would be made of a mix of mystery metals so I need something capable of welding steel to aluminum to wrought iron - clean or rusted.
6. Weeks from now when I've learned all I can about welding and am the world's expert on the subject, I want to try and repair a woodworking plane that has a crack. But unlike every single other such repair done in the last 100 years, I don't want it to look like someone dripped bronze brazing all over the thing and tried to smooth it down with their teeth - I want a perfectly invisible repair in cast iron. A repair so clean and precise that it will take a team of scientists with electron microscopes to find the repair.

Oh - I want to do it all for less than $300 if possible.

thanks
Joe


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## Tamper84 (Feb 7, 2013)

Ok, I will take a stab here. Before I start, I do weld for a living. 

With you wanting to heat and weld, in all honestly, you cant beat an oxy/acetylene. Heat, weld, and cut in one package. But you said you didnt want the cylinders sitting around. And around here (eastern Ohio) a 99 year lease on the tanks is 399 bucks. Just take the tank in when empty and swap them out. Of course you have to pay for the fill up. When you get to cutting really big iron, you will use more then you think. When I was relining a caterpillar D-11 blade, I went thru 10 oxy tanks cutting the old liner off. 

If I can suggest anything, it would be to have a torch setup, along with an ac/dc stick welder. They do make electrodes very small (1/16). If you are wanting to to weld rusty metal together, MIG and TIG is out. The metal has to be clean with those two. 

When I learned to weld, the first thing I was taught was oxy/ace welding. If any one asks me, that is the best way to start. It is slower then molasses, but you get to see the puddle and learn how to manipulate it as well. Plus, pretty much every move you make with a torch, can be applied to TIG as well.  No smoke and sparks to try and see through. 

But if you have grinders/saws and such, I would just recommend an ac/dc stick welder. You can weld all metals (yes they make aluminum electrodes, but messy). As well as all thicknesses, 1/16-1/4" and bigger electrodes. Just need a heck of a big welder to run those big boys. Also, you can carbon arc (air arc) from a stick welder, just hook up an air compressor and go to town. And since a stick welder is a constant current power source, you can also lift arc tig from them(just need a tig torch) 

With what you want to do, I would stay away from the 110v machines. They do have there place, I have one, sheet metal only. After that it goes to stick. If you can scour craigslist, look for an old transformer machine. Like a Miller ABP 330 machine or a Lincoln 300/300. They have built in High frequency for tig, also one heck of a stick welder. You usually see them for sale any where from 300-1000 ready to go. Or if you just want to stick some metal together and learn, grab up an old Lincoln tombstone off of craigslist for a couple hundred and start burning rod. Oh also dont overlook the Lincoln Idealarcs either. Plentyful cheap and damn good to boot. 

My only problem with the Tombstones, is the settings on them. What you see is what you get, no fine adjustment. When I have been welding on the same piece all day, I do adjust my heat by 5-10 amps. I think on the tombstones, there is a 25 or so amp difference between settings. 

I have no experiece with the Longevity/Everlast etc welders. Ive heard good and bad on both.

Now onto the cast iron. The only way I have ever repaired cast, was brazing. Never did have good luck electrical welding it. Also, with a cast iron repair, I have seen some done beautifully, but you can still tell it has been repaired. 

Enough of my rambling, Im hoping I didnt confuse you or anything, just my 2 pennies worth.

Chris


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## joe_m (Feb 7, 2013)

Tamper84 said:


> But if you have grinders/saws and such, I would just recommend an ac/dc stick welder. You can weld all metals (yes they make aluminum electrodes, but messy). As well as all thicknesses, 1/16-1/4" and bigger electrodes. Just need a heck of a big welder to run those big boys. Also, you can carbon arc (air arc) from a stick welder, just hook up an air compressor and go to town. And since a stick welder is a constant current power source, you can also lift arc tig from them(just need a tig torch)
> 
> With what you want to do, I would stay away from the 110v machines. They do have there place, I have one, sheet metal only. After that it goes to stick. If you can scour craigslist, look for an old transformer machine. Like a Miller ABP 330 machine or a Lincoln 300/300. They have built in High frequency for tig, also one heck of a stick welder. You usually see them for sale any where from 300-1000 ready to go. Or if you just want to stick some metal together and learn, grab up an old Lincoln tombstone off of craigslist for a couple hundred and start burning rod. Oh also dont overlook the Lincoln Idealarcs either. Plentyful cheap and damn good to boot.
> 
> My only problem with the Tombstones, is the settings on them. What you see is what you get, no fine adjustment. When I have been welding on the same piece all day, I do adjust my heat by 5-10 amps. I think on the tombstones, there is a 25 or so amp difference between settings.



Good start - great info. Now what do you mean by "stick welder" ? I thought all welders needed a stick of filler/flux? I've written down the names of the ones you recommended and I'll start looking on Craigslist for something cheap to popup.
thanks
Joe


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## tripletap3 (Feb 7, 2013)

joe_m said:


> Good start - great info. Now what do you mean by "stick welder" ? I thought all welders needed a stick of filler/flux? I've written down the names of the ones you recommended and I'll start looking on Craigslist for something cheap to popup.
> thanks
> Joe



Electric arc welding requires a shielding gas of some sort to keep the arc from the atmosphere mainly O2. MIG and TIG welders use a specific type of bottled gas to shield or replace the unwanted atmosphere around the arc. This type of shielding makes a very clean weld. A stick welder uses a metal rod that is coated with a type of material (called flux but not the same stuff used to clean and promote adhesion in brazing and soldering) that as it burns it creates a gas that does the shielding. This creates a slag that must be chipped off before more welding is done over it. Some MIG welders also use a wire with a flux core that does the same thing and must be chipped off as well.


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## Ray C (Feb 7, 2013)

Hi All....

Stick welding = Arc welding.

From the sound of it, I think you want a combo unit that does plasma cutting, TIG and Arc/Stick welding. There are many such beasts out there that do just that. I have one but it's expensive. You won't find much that welds aluminum in the $300 price range. There's two practcial ways to weld aluminum... MIG with a MIG gun and TIG.

Just so happens, I do a fair bit of all these and for the same reason as you, don't don't keep Acytelene around. I just don't need the expense of another rented bottle and don't care to have it around anymore.

One thing though, you mentioned heat treating... You can do some approximate tempering of metals with a torch but, the contaminants and uncertaintly of temperatures are drawbacks. Proper heat treating is best not done with torches. -Possible yes, predictable -not really.

Do a Net search on Multi-Process welders. I have an Everlast unit, a brand called Longevity comes to mind. Also is the brand that Tony Wells just bought but the name escapes me at the moment. These are all the upper-end of the second-tier products. The big names like Lincoln, Miller, ThermalArc, Hobart... -Forget it. You won't touch it in the $300 range.

If you have questions about any particular process, fire away...


Ray

EDIT:  If you want to do aluminum, make sure the unit you get can do variable frequency AC or at least, pulsed DC.  Most such animals cost more than $300 though.  And finally, I'm not a big fan of the Harbor Freight electric welders.  I went through 3 of them like popcorn.  They didn't hold up.  The HF gas torches are very good.


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## Gary Max (Feb 7, 2013)

Joe if you live in the right place------ go take a class---- it will save you money. Then buy the welders you need.


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## DMS (Feb 7, 2013)

For most of the stuff you list, I think oxy/fuel is the way to go for you. You won't be able to weld aluminum or cast iron, but you can do a lot with steel.

If you just want to stick to pieces of steel together quickly, a wire welder with flux core wire is probably the easiest, and cheaper than true mig. "Stick" welding (also called SMAW, or just plain "arc welding") is probably the cheapest, but takes a little more practice than a wire welder.


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## joe_m (Feb 7, 2013)

Gary Max said:


> Joe if you live in the right place------ go take a class---- it will save you money. Then buy the welders you need.


Welding was actually the last industrial arts class that the local college taught, but they gave that up a few years ago. No big loss there - I'm a resourceful guy and I'm sure with the right help from the internet I could teach myself it all - heck, I could probably learn underwater welding in my bathtub with a crazy-straw for a snorkel and a bic lighter for a flame! :rofl:


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## Rbeckett (Feb 7, 2013)

Joe,
I am a retired welder by trade and I can tell you that what you would like to do is nearly impossible for the budget you have set.  A much more reasonable budget would be closer to 1000.00 and that will get you a helment, gloves clampsm tools, tip cleaner, nozz;e dip and a small wire welder.  Most folks end up going cheap and realize that cheaper means less amps which translates directly into limits on what you can safely fuse.  If you have a size limit and a list of materials you would like to work wuth I wpould be thrilled to help you get the biggest bang for your buck and help you get started.  Welding is mostly practice.  You gather some basic info and then apply it to your welds.  The more you weld the better your welds will look and the better they will perform in real world situations.    I tend to shy awau from import machines and multipurpose machines because imports have a bad reputation for longevity and multi machines give up some things to do others and I prefer a quality machine designed for the process I am currently using.  LMK if I can help you get started, I wouls love to help you if I can.
Bob


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## Gary Max (Feb 7, 2013)

Personally-------- get yourself a  AC/DC Arc welder.
You will never weld up tool post with a mig--- they just don't have enough bite to dig into inch steel.
With a Arc welder you can but different rods and weld many types of projects.
Understand I am just a hack but I am also a woodworker so I have a good ideal of where you are going with this.


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## Rbeckett (Feb 8, 2013)

Gary brings up a good point too.  A good ole AC/DC buzz box is also a great option and a proven performer over time.  There are buzz boxes that were brand new 50 years ago still working everyday in shops and garages all over.  No telling how many bush hogs have been welded in that time.   Let us know what your planning and we will be thrilled to help you out any way we can.  Thanks for the poke in my memory too Gary.
Bob


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## Ray C (Feb 8, 2013)

Thumbs up on the good old Buzz Box!  Good advice!

I have a Lincoln 125/225 AC/DC buzz box (red tombstone) and it's hands-down my preferred machine for stick welding.  Very nice feel to it and no fiddling with settings like on the newer machines.  -Can't beat it.


Ray

PS:  Those Lincoln's are commonly found in Craigslist.  Make sure you get the AC/DC model because a lot of arc welding benefits from DC.


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## Ed. (Feb 9, 2013)

Hi, in my opinion, if you wanted to get a single welding unit that would give you the most options then I would suggest a 4 in one ie; AC/DC/MMA/Plasma cutter and you will only need one tank of argon, hook up an air compressor and you also can plasma cut. however said that you definitely won't get a new reasonably good inverter one for under $300, more like $1K plus, even a Chinese import. The AC will do Aluminium, the DC stainless, mild steel and others, and you also have MMA (stick) welding as well. 

Having said that I have also have seen a 3 in 1 MIG that also does TIG and MMA, however I do not know how good they are, if you get a MIG, a bottle of mixed gas will do most metals apart from Aluminium for which you will require a separate bottle of pure Argon and then you also lose the Plasma cutting. These type are also more than the $300 budget you have. Also as mentioned previously, MIG and TIG require clean metals to weld, especially TIG.

My personal opinion is that the cheap welders are generally not worth getting and I would save up and get a more expensive and higher a higher capacity unit which will give you many more options, such as higher duty cycles, better features, such as more settings etc. It is a one off cost that will last you a long time, (think of it as a tool investment for your welding future,) they are also easier to weld with, are able to produce better welds (depending on your welding skills) and less frustrating. If you do get a cheap one you will have to work within the machines limitations and there will be many! My brother had a cheap 140amp MMA welder and had trouble getting decent welds for years, spent more time grinding out the welds than anything as they were crap. I lucked in and picked up a new $700 welder for $220  on E-Bay for him  (Bargains can be had out there!) and since he started welding with it, he couldn't thank me enough, 30 minute jobs now only took 5 minutes and with welds that were spot on and no touch up necessary.

I have both an Everlast 256 4 in 1 TIG and a  Miller AutoInvision 456 inverter MIG which covers nearly all of my welding requirement, and while an Oxy-Acet setup would complete the shed, I cannot justify the additional annual cost of hiring two more cylinders which will see little use. Your welding requirement are different to mine and so your units could be quite a bit smaller, also the 240V machines are much better than the 110V and 3 phase 440V better still, but that also depends on what voltage is available to you.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

Ed.


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## firefite (Feb 14, 2013)

What equipment can I use to weld or braze stainless steel? It is not heavy just about 1/16". Dave


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## Gary Max (Feb 14, 2013)

I would use my Mig welder.


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## GK1918 (Feb 14, 2013)

Hey Joe, I simply love your number 5 idea.   Lawn art that emits laser rays looks alien pointed at those
speeding idiots that ran over my shop cat.  Anyways back to the post.  Although have a AO Smith
225 amp that also has battery charger attachment.  Since few yrs back I came upon a beauty, Miller
225 amp gas a/c d/c. from a neighbor tottaly serviced $400.  I simply love it never used the old Smith
again.  Then we have $600 thereabouts  Lincoln (110vt) mig. that gets used alot.  Then for house calls
we put the mig in the tool truck and run it off the Miller (also a generator too).  I think you really will
need ox/ act. Athough the bigest problem is tanks.  High rent rates and supply people are touchey
filling those small ones you can buy anywhere.  Im luckey I own my tanks from back in the 1950s, all
I need is proof of ownership.  I deal with Air Gas I think they are nationwide. Of course they dont fill
them we exchange them.  This time of year, its not machining, its welding snowplows, and thats
five this week from a blizzard.  And also a chop saw thats a must have.   And then again, it all depends
what you want to do.  But a good little mig is really a good start, running on house current.  Perhaps
Tractor Supply or somebody carries those small ox/ act. setups but ask who fills them.   Samuel


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 14, 2013)

firefite said:


> What equipment can I use to weld or braze stainless steel? It is not heavy just about 1/16". Dave



if you have a mig welder, get a bottle of Tri-Mix and a one pound spool of 308 stainless wire,install.... get er' done!!
other wise spot weld if you can get away with it!
hope it helps
mike)


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## Tony Wells (Feb 14, 2013)

Depending on the joint configuration, you may also consider silver solder or sil-phos on the stainless. It is not as strong, of course, as welding..... but is easier to learn and can be buffed out to look decent. It's not a color match, but if this is a non-cosmetic joint, it may serve nicely. 

Lowe's, for example, has a small oxy-Acetylene portable gas rig like you might see A/C guys carry.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_98353-1703-...rentURL=?Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1&facetInfo=

Pretty handy, easily portable. 

Lots of opinions on welding, nearly as many as there are methods and materials that dictate the best approach. There usually are more than one way to accomplish a job, so you must be the one to choose what the majority of the welding you are intending to do, and try to decide what type of equipment would suit your purpose, both immediate and longer term. Many times you can start with something basic, like an oxy-fuel set that will allow cutting, welding, and brazing and silver soldering in addition to general purpose heating, which is handy for countless tasks and not something that most of the other methods and equipment can do. 

I can go along with MIG being about the closest to a general purpose machine, and with the proper selection of shielding gases and wire can weld the most common materials easily. Heavier materials can be welded with a MIG, but of course along with heavy capacity comes larger, more expensive machines. But that doesn't mean you can't be patient and get a good used machine from someone.

TIG is a more technical method, and also the most versatile is you consider the range of different materials that can be joined with that process. But again, it is not easy to learn (but hardly impossible) and far more "fussy" to achieve good quality welds. My own preference is TIG for small, light, precision welds that must be high quality. Also you can weld dissimilar materials with TIG, which is difficult to impossible with some other methods. And materials that you normally wouldn't even think of arc welding.

For heavy duty, rough work, as several of the guys have mentioned, good old fashioned "stick" or rod machines are in their niche. There's a reason they are the machine of choice for most pipeline, outdoor, and large tank/vessel work. But again, capacity comes with cost. Ac only machines are cheaper, but there are some rods you shouldn't use with them, and some materials that, for all practical purposes cannot be properly joined with that type machine. AC/DC machines cost more, but expand the capability, not necessarily in material thickness, but in types of rod that can be used, which gives more latitude in position and base material weldability.

Of course, it would be nice to have all the different methods, including E-Beam and Laser equipment, but that's not realistic for a home shop. So consider where you want to start, learn that method well and then decide which way and how far to expand your welding capability.


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## Ed. (Feb 17, 2013)

Gary Max said:


> Personally-------- get yourself a  AC/DC Arc welder.
> You will never weld up tool post with a mig--- they just don't have enough bite to dig into inch steel.
> With a Arc welder you can but different rods and weld many types of projects.
> Understand I am just a hack but I am also a woodworker so I have a good ideal of where you are going with this.



Hey Gary, That would depend on how big the MIG welder is, a 225 amp Mig will weld 12mm plate, and with multi pass welding can weld thicker, also with the larger MIG welders, 1" steel is no problem, I blew holes in a piece of 20mm plate once for kicks using 1.2mm wire, I am sure that if I put in 1.6mm wire and cranked it up to 560 plus amps it would penetrate well into much thicker steel, heat distortion would be a bugger though :thinking:. But I don't think the OP wants to weld 1" steel, as he also wants to heat treat some steel he will also need some sort of GAS torch to heat metal apart from a welder to join metal, but not for $300 budget.

Cheers

Ed.


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## burnrider (Feb 17, 2013)

Before you spend a dime, consider the need to cut, grind or drill steel. Welding benches with a vise and clamping capability are common. Add ventilation and sheetrocking/ or sheeting the walls to prevent spark exposure. The welder is only one expense.
Gary's advice might be good- take a class. It will show you tools needed for steel construction projects. You can also check out the shop picture thread here. Lots of welders in this forum.


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## papermaker (Mar 26, 2013)

My 2 cents worth..Buy a good MIG welder with gas. A good 220v MIG welder can make you look like a pro. I bought a small Lincoln MIG welder (110v) with gas and it would stick metal together though it wasn't very pretty. I chalked it up to inexperience. Shortly after I had a chance to upgrade to a nice Miller 220v MIG welder. That made a world of difference in the quality of my welds.
A torch is really handy if you're wanting to heat/cut metal but it takes spome learning to get good at that too. 
I went with a abrasive chop saw to cut metal and that just plain sucked.
I tried that plasma cutter route and didn't care for the way that it atomized the metal and covered everything with dust.
Finally settled in a horizontal/vertical metal cutting bandsaw and really couldn't be happier. I went with a Jet but I think they are all made in the same place and they are a little cheaper.

Moral of the story... Buy a good welder and go cheap on the other stuff.


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## W6PUG (Apr 25, 2013)

Something else to consider - there are some really kool multiprocess machines out there ... one I looked at was stick, MIG and plasma cutter. Now, you are probably going to get the heebies about cost, but I broke it down to cost of a MIG+[cost of torch, gauges, bottles, gas, recert of tanks, etc,] + [cost of a stick] .... in the end, the mulitprocess machines are quite equivalent in price - cheaper in some cases - is a single unit if you are space limited and limited number of 240vac outlets ... I can squeeze a nickel until the buffalo s^&*s, but this makes a lot of sense to me - saving my nickels now because my next machine is gonna be a multiprocess.  Some players here are obviously Lincoln and Miller in the upper price class, but also Longevity, Everlast and some others. Shop ... you're spending your hard earned cash ... get something that will keep you in the game for a long time. 
Just a thought ... am sure everyone have opinions, but if you go down to a race track, those guys are not dragging around a truckload of welding equipment - they are going more and more to multiprocess machines as well.  Good luck ....


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## Bill C. (Apr 25, 2013)

joe_m said:


> Good start - great info. Now what do you mean by "stick welder" ? I thought all welders needed a stick of filler/flux? I've written down the names of the ones you recommended and I'll start looking on Craigslist for something cheap to popup.
> thanks
> Joe


 Stick welder is slang for a welder that used welding rod instead of a wire feeder and a spool of wire/ I liked using stick, I found it easier. You will need a slag hammer to removed the scale. Wire welders use inhert gas as their fleux.   Make sure you get the best hood you can. 
Best of Luck


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