# Shimming a mini-mill - a few questions



## chris.trotter (Feb 10, 2018)

So I've done a lot of reading, but being stuck in 'not America' plus on a limited budget, I'm hesitant to buy what I think might be 'the right solution' when maybe I don't need something so fancy.  To further clarify what answers will help - I am in awe of stuff that Starrett and the like make, but only buy ebay special tools, for the most part - budget is just not there.

I have a solid column mini-mill (_SX2P_) that has four small contact patches between the column and base.  My reading tells me to buy the LittleMachineShop kit with indicator arm, plastic shim stock, and dial test indicator.

However, after shipping/dollar conversion, a $56USD item turns into $100CAD - that is a hefty dent in my monthly tool budget, and by dent I mean 'allofit'.

Further compounding the issue is my apparent inability to find shim stock cheaper than what LMS sells (_even with shipping/conversion!_) - everywhere I've looked, it's surprisingly expensive.

So, my questions...
- Shim stock that isn't crazy money...ideas?  (_saw someone use aluminum foil! that seems bad..._)
- Dial test indicator, a necessity? (_kinda thinking 'yes'..._)
- Fancy indicator arm - nice to have or kinda necessary for many tasks?  (_fwiw, I have a Noga mini - Christmas present! - not sure if you can just mag-base to the spindle for similar results_)

If 'yes' is the answer for all those (_lol, even the shim stock question_), guess I'm dropping a hundy with LMS.  

If I can use the Noga mini on the spindle, then I can just buy the shim stock and get a DTI off ebay or whatever.

Thanks!


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 10, 2018)

Hi Chris,
simplicity usually rules out over complexity, if given half a chance.

in the US we have Graingers and McMaster Carr to buy shim stock and the like from.
possibly a bearing house in your area maybe able to provide you with shimstock in many thicknesses.
i bought a .003" X 6" wide x 50" long hard stainless shim stock at Grainger last week for $22 USD

a simple .01mm dial indicator would most likely be good enough for most of the work you'll do.
that is unless you tackle some very precise work.

i own and use the import versions of the Noga holders you are describing as well as mighty mags and shopmade holders too
it doesn't have to be expensive to work well

i have shimstock in .005" and .003", neither weight very much.
if you have a hard time getting some, i'd be happy to supply you with a care package at no charge


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## chris.trotter (Feb 10, 2018)

Ulma Doctor said:


> i have shimstock in .005" and .003", neither weight very much.
> if you have a hard time getting some, i'd be happy to supply you with a care package at no charge



Very generous of you!  You might change your mind when you have to fill out the shipping forms to get stuff over the border.   

I'll ask around for local stuff and see what I can come up with.  Probably would be handy for other Canadian folk to know where they can get this.  Actually, now that I think about it - a list of GTA (_Greater Toronto Area_) suppliers was posted the other day, have to look at that!

Regarding simplicity - good to know about dial indicators being mostly sufficient.  I did read up on the difference between DTI and DI, but found so many people out there doing this type of procedure with a DTI that, well... it _must_ be 'the right way'!  I'll be referring to threads like this when I do my initial tram attempt:  Squaring a stubborn x2 head


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## mikey (Feb 10, 2018)

A cheap option to shim stock is a cheap feeler gauge set. If you can, buy the long ones and get two of them. Cut what you need and save the rest. Or you can take Mike up on his generous offer!

You need a dial test indicator (0.0005") to tram the vise (and for many other uses). To tram the column a simple dial indicator, either the standard drop indicator type or back plunger type, will do. You can also use a dial test indicator to tram the column but it isn't necessary and it is more hassle to use it that way.

For tramming the mill column or vise you can use the magnetic holder and latch it onto the quill. You cannot do this for locating holes but for tramming, it will work fine.


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## chris.trotter (Feb 10, 2018)

mikey said:


> A cheap option to shim stock is a cheap feeler gauge set. If you can, buy the long ones and get two of them. Cut what you need and save the rest.
> *Nice!!  I like it.*
> You need a dial test indicator (0.0005") to tram the vise (and for many other uses).
> *And apparently it was the right way. lol*
> ...



The feeler gauges I can definitely get around here.  I wonder if my neighbour would lend me his DTI...with supervision... (_he's a retired tool/die guy_)


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## T Bredehoft (Feb 10, 2018)

chris.trotter said:


> I wonder if my neighbour



He might be talked into leading  you through the process. If he's like me he'd give an eye tooth to show off his skill.


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## francist (Feb 10, 2018)

If you're really stuck on wanting to buy some, Acklands-Grainger, Fastenal, etc if they'll sell to you. Sometimes they won't deal with non-commercial. Precision engine shops like JB Precision should have it. Even Lee Valley carries some in brass.




-frank


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## Wreck™Wreck (Feb 10, 2018)

The best shim stock for your application is made from a material that works, steel, aluminum, copper/brass/bronze, assorted polymers, cheese curd, paper, the skins of endangered mammals, iron oxide, very thin mints, the tears of a clown, and possibly air. I would do more research before making a decision however.

The choices appear endless


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## kd4gij (Feb 10, 2018)

I have used bear cans for shim stock.


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## dlane (Feb 10, 2018)

X2 on beer cans


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## Wreck™Wreck (Feb 11, 2018)

dlane said:


> X2 on beer cans


Always drink the beer first, some have discarded the beer in order to use the can and this is not right.

One may use soda/pop cans but this material is less then desirable as it exhibits poor creep strength.


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## chris.trotter (Feb 11, 2018)

Beer cans, haha.  Looks like they measure 0.003-0.005?

The Lee Valley sampler pack looks like the ticket - $12 and covers 6 sizes, in 2x6" sheets.  Perfect!  If I can't find anything in the shop, I'll go that route.  Then I have leftover stock for future projects.


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## Bob Korves (Feb 13, 2018)

This company has all kinds of shim products:
https://precisionbrand.com/
I have this kit:
https://precisionbrand.com/products/15-piece-steel-shim-stock-asst-6-x-12-sheets/
Got it from Enco some years ago.  Very useful, and the sheets thinner than .010" cut to shape easily with ordinary scissors.
Brass is a lot more expensive than steel.
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00055913
Not a great price from MSC, I got mine for about half that price.


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## yendor (Feb 17, 2018)

Most well stocked Hobby  Shops sell Brass used for Model Making (especially Trains oriented Shops)
The brass they sell comes in lots of different thicknesses and sizes.


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## Nobby (Feb 17, 2018)

I used this  
https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Ca...0?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1518917175&sr=1-10


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## umahunter (Feb 18, 2018)

Depending on how thick you need you can usually find some thin aluminum that can be used as a shim in the flashing section at the local home store take your calipers with you to check


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## umahunter (Feb 18, 2018)

I got this aluminum flashing from lowes for some roofing that I've used as shim stock it mesures .007


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## Aaron_W (Feb 18, 2018)

yendor said:


> Most well stocked Hobby  Shops sell Brass used for Model Making (especially Trains oriented Shops)
> The brass they sell comes in lots of different thicknesses and sizes.



I've found a lot of Ace and True Value hardware stores have the same K&S metal display racks that you find in hobby shops. 

They make a sampler pack that would be particularly useful for shims, just a variety sheets in different thicknesses.

http://www.ksmetals.com/index.html


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## T Bredehoft (Feb 18, 2018)

Just a thought, if you've got the possibility of coolant running all over, go with steel. Some coolants will corrode (swell) aluminum.


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## chris.trotter (Feb 19, 2018)

Thanks everyone, I ended up ordering the pack from LeeValley, should arrive tomorrow.  Been spending the meantime getting the mill torn apart, cleaned, lubed, and put back together.

Discovered the truth in what others said about the cheap gib screws - found one of them was stripped right around the engagement point.  ...next thing for me to source...


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## Ken from ontario (Feb 19, 2018)

chris.trotter said:


> Discovered the truth in what others said about the cheap gib screws - found one of them was stripped right around the engagement point. ...next thing for me to source.


You can get  US made,good quality set screws from Fastenal or order them on ebay  (don't forget to buy the nuts), I got mine from Fastenal  :
https://www.fastenal.com/products?t...t Set Screws"|~ ~|sattr01:^Metric$|~&pageno=2


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## chris.trotter (Feb 19, 2018)

That is amazing, did not know Fastenal has an online store - thanks Ken!


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## Aaron_W (Feb 19, 2018)

I have a Fastenal right here in town, I didn't know what they did. Handy, or perhaps expensive...


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## Ken from ontario (Feb 19, 2018)

The local store in my city sells items much lower than what's advertised online, it's always a good idea to call and ask for a quote . they can take your order and have it shipped to the store for free pick up or a couple of $  extra.


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## dlane (Feb 19, 2018)

Last time I went to fastenal they wanted me to buy the whole package of 50 , other stores may vary


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## ebolton (Feb 19, 2018)

I've used aluminum foil, beer cans, aluminum flashing, and plastic scraps from packaging. Whatever works. At work, we have a set of brass shim stock from McMaster-Carr. I think the whole assortment is about $80 and has pretty big pieces ranging from .001 to .015. It seems like such a luxury for home use.

-Ed


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## chris.trotter (Feb 22, 2018)

So pro-tip, when you are thinking in your head "if I do this, guaranteed it's gonna cut me" - stop!  It was almost comedic, how the next second I was all "yuuuuup, that cut me".  Pro-tip #2 - _*drilling brass shims using standard drills is very dumb*_.  I made the critical error of thinking "it's so thin, that brass grabbing thing shouldn't matter".  Haha!  Pro-tip #3 Don't hold sharp tiny stuff you are about to drill with your bare hands.

It's kind of miraculous I have made it this far in life, honestly.

I also discovered that I truly don't understand how shimming works (it almost seemed like "do the opposite of what your indicator says"), but in the end it only took me about 45 minutes.

Further, the brass shim stock I got seemed to influence readings dramatically more than their advertised size values.  For example, X-axis was 0 on the left, +15 on the right.  (in the end) I added a 5-thou shim on the right to bring it to +1.5.  The Y-axis was 0 at the front, +8 at the back.  I added a 3-thou shim to the back to bring it to +1.  I have to assume the shim stock was good, but my understanding of shimming was not.  

(_maybe I needed to accommodate for where I was shimming, and the difference it would make farther out? i.e. needs maths?_)

The good news, though...
 - The mill is trammed in!  Only out about 1.5 thou across the X-axis, and <1 thou across the Y-axis.
 - The old Palmgren vise I had "accidentally" lying around is working great, although the jaws have seen better days - another project for another day...
 - Took some long cuts in scrap mild steel, not feeling the same ridge between cuts from before!  \o/

*Shimming adventure*



*Decided against drilling...also, mark the thickness!*



*OWWWWW that was dumb*



*Brass & normal drill angles yo*



*New-old vise!*
_With proper (?) usage of strap clamps!_




Thanks again, everyone!


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## yendor (Feb 22, 2018)

To Drill really thin stock like that, it is easier to sandwich it between (2) pieces of wood. 
Cheap 1/4 Plywood scraps are good for that.
It will save your fingers.


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## chris.trotter (Feb 22, 2018)

yendor said:


> To Drill really thin stock like that, it is easier to sandwich it between (2) pieces of wood.
> Cheap 1/4 Plywood scraps are good for that.
> It will save your fingers.


Yup!  I even thought that just before, but stupidity overcame me.


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