# New To Me 1928 South Bend Junior 9"



## wolfsburged (Sep 18, 2016)

Don't post much, but have been reading the forums for a bit. Keep meaning to post some stuff about my garage and tools but never seem to have time.

Anyway, have been setting up a small basement machine shop. I had previously acquired a Harbor Freight micro mill (basically Sieg X1 mill/drill) and have some tooling for it. Other basic tools I have, or have restored: Rockwell/Delta 14" wood/metal band saw, HF 4x6" horizontal band saw, Rockwell/Delta 6+6 Drill Press, Hobart 140 MIG welder, and some misc wood working stuff.

It was a used machine and was a entry into the metal working arena. I had been looking for a lathe, and this popped up nearby.

At first I thought it was a regular old South Bend 9C since it has change gears. Once I did some more research I realized this was a much earlier lathe. The serial number dates it to 1928 and this is a "Junior" 9" lathe.

Its definitely not like-new, but it seems to have been at least somewhat cared for. Decent paint, covered in oil still, and with a small bit of tooling and what I believe is the complete set of change gears. I still need to inventory all of the gears to make sure all are there.

It is so old that it was sold with the ceiling mount line-shaft transmission, rather than with an electric motor. The lathe came with a very old Bendix washing machine motor, obviously not original. The line-shaft transmission is interesting, it has two large flat belt pulleys to link this into the wider shop belt system, and a left-right shifter mechanism that pushes a cone over, engages a pawl and causes a friction clutch type mechanism to expand inside of the pulley, which when engaged causes the inner shaft to rotate and therefore turn the three step pulley and engage the lathe.

I am not planning on reusing the motor supplied, will likely either find a 3 phase motor and add VFD or find a treadmill/DC motor and controller. I work with VFDs a lot for work and am comfortable on the electronics side of either solution. However I will need to figure out a pulley and belt solution to get the right speed ranges.

There is definitely some damage on the lathe from prior mishaps. The chuck has clearly been dropped a few times, although only the inner parts of the lathe bed seem damaged, not the outer ways. This Junior lathe has a wider bed than the newer "Workshop" lathes I believe, being derived from the earlier 10" lathe.

The compound has also clearly been crashed into the chuck a number of times. One tooth is missing on the back gear. I hope that with just one tooth out, it will still run smooth enough. The main large hand wheel on the apron is a bit wobbly, but otherwise the controls seem tight enough with what appears to be reasonable back lash.

I don't see any evidence of a ridge on the ways, and only minor knicks on the actual ways themselves.

Otherwise the lathe came with a few bits of tooling.

At some point someone cut a drum in half and welded some angle iron together to make a removable chip pan.

I definitely am not a lathe expert, having only run one a few times.

Today I degreased and cleaned up the cast iron legs and got a coat of Rustoleum primer on them. It appears the lathe has been repainted standard Rustoleum Smoke Gray so I will be doing the same on the legs and chip pan to match.

So my overall to-do:
1. Get legs painted
2. Figure out leveling feet solution
3. Remount lathe to legs and get level
4. Figure out motor/drive belt and pulleys
5. Get appropriate oils and grease
6. Test the lathe! Was not able to run under power so next I will need to evaluate what I actually have.

If all seems well once under power I will then start trying to do more with it. I would like to get a drill chuck for the tail stock, need to learn to grind some tooling and just start learning the lathe.

It wasn't quite what I was looking for (was trying for a Model A with QC box) but the price was quite right, being approximately the cost of a used HF 7x10 lathe.

Thanks for looking!
Bill


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## wolfsburged (Sep 18, 2016)

For some reason it would not let me post pictures and was thinking I was spam. 

Edit: still not working. 

I did find and purchase some oil for the lathe from bluechipmachineshop today.


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## wolfsburged (Sep 18, 2016)

Some photos:


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## Charles Spencer (Sep 18, 2016)

Interesting lathe.  I like it.


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## silverhawk (Sep 18, 2016)

wolfsburged, welcome to the Junior club!  Yours is a bit older than mine (serial 47049), but we have nearly identical models (22-YB, a 9x19/3 ft bed).  I believe you scored, though, as you have the change gears - mine did not have them, and I'm struggling with paying $275 to someone on eBay.  I've opted to spend less on the 16DP gear cutters.  P.S., I believe all of your gears are going to have a diametral pitch of 16 - whereas the 9C "workshops" and tool room lathes all had a pitch of 18.  Your parts will be more interchangeable with a heavy 10 than with a 9" workshop model - in fact, I doubt any parts will interchange with the Juniors and the workshop models.

Regarding your missing tooth on the back gears, I had the same situation - and rather than try to see how well it would run (it will, just be noisier), I ordered two sets of back gears that looked close on eBay, and combined hardware into a good eccentric/back gear shaft.  After finding out the differences in gear pitches, I believe I was very lucky to have it perfect.

Something that may be of interest to you, as well.  I ordered a copy of the "serial card" from Grizzly, which is supposed to provide a little more information (around $25).  Around 1948, they translated the old ledger lines to the "serial cards", but there was usually very little information as to options they were sold with.

My Junior was sold to the Salt Lake Hardware Company on January 24, 1930.  However, simply for the ledger line that the old ones get, it was worth the $25.  Basically, you pay Grizzly $25, and a gentleman by the name of Richard (if my memory serves me well) will go scan it for you and you get an e-mail with an attachment or two.  Some had a little more detail in the ledger, but not much.  I still think it was worth it - you can tell for yourself with the scans posted for mine at

http://www.silverhawk.net/2015/11/new-south-bend-9x19-lathe.html

If that is the original finish, it's called "Japanning", and should be kept if possible.  Very few maintain that finish, and it is a VERY durable finish (considering it's nearly 90 years old).

Welcome to ownership of a very old lathe!


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## wolfsburged (Sep 19, 2016)

The original Japanning is unfortunately no longer present.

Silverhawk, have you rigged your lathe up yet with a motor and pulley drive system? This is my next big task to accomplish. How is the belt tension managed between the lathe pulleys and the ceiling mounted transmission?


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## silverhawk (Sep 19, 2016)

wolfsburged said:


> The original Japanning is unfortunately no longer present.
> 
> Silverhawk, have you rigged your lathe up yet with a motor and pulley drive system? This is my next big task to accomplish. How is the belt tension managed between the lathe pulleys and the ceiling mounted transmission?



Yeah, mine was "half way" into someone removing the japanning when I got it.  That hurt.

The weird thing is that mine did not come with the wide belts that most came with - it came with two 5" v-belt pulleys.  I've picked up some 4L link belts that I will use, and that will make tensioning better when I get there.  I'm still in the process of getting it all connected up (going to fire up an A/C motor tonight).  I did try an MC2100-controlled treadmill motor with a Baldor BC141 controller, but it just did not have the power necessary to drive it (I believe it was a combination of the BC141 and the motor itself, since they are vastly different motors).  Also, it's been an odd thing for me to track down pulleys of the right size to get close to the original speeds.  I did not have a countershaft assembly at all.  Still working through all of that, hope to have it up and running soon.

Joe


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## wolfsburged (Sep 20, 2016)

Took a better stock of what came with the lathe tonight. I seem to be missing one of the change gears, however it is probably one I won't need often. 

Gears I have:
16, 32, 40, 44, 46, 48, 52, 56, 64, 72, 80
Missing: 60

Also have the following tools:
Armstrong No 2010-S Tool Holder
J.H. Williams 2010L Turning Tool Holder (left)
J.H. Williams 2010R Turning Tool Hoder (right)
J.H. Williams No. 29L Cutting-Off & Side Tool
J.H. Williams No. 030-R Agrippa Cutting-Off & Side Tool
J.H. Williams No 00B Boring Tool Holder


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## wolfsburged (Sep 20, 2016)

silverhawk said:


> Yeah, mine was "half way" into someone removing the japanning when I got it.  That hurt.
> 
> The weird thing is that mine did not come with the wide belts that most came with - it came with two 5" v-belt pulleys.  I've picked up some 4L link belts that I will use, and that will make tensioning better when I get there.  I'm still in the process of getting it all connected up (going to fire up an A/C motor tonight).  I did try an MC2100-controlled treadmill motor with a Baldor BC141 controller, but it just did not have the power necessary to drive it (I believe it was a combination of the BC141 and the motor itself, since they are vastly different motors).  Also, it's been an odd thing for me to track down pulleys of the right size to get close to the original speeds.  I did not have a countershaft assembly at all.  Still working through all of that, hope to have it up and running soon.
> 
> Joe



Interesting! May have to ping you some more in the future as I get into this, I believe we think the same way after taking a look at your website! Plus doesn't seem to be many people active with the older Junior lathes. 

So, first of all did a little figuring on the pulley sizes provided by the transmission/countershaft I have.

First, the pertinent facts:
The washing machine motor has a 2.25" OD pulley with 1.25" ID which has a reducing bushing made to fit the 3/8" shaft on the motor.

The transmission shaft is 7/8" OD. The two single flat belt pulleys are both 6.5" OD.

The transmission three step pulley has ODs of 6, 5, and 4". 

The matching lathe three step pulley is 2.5, 3.75, and 5".

Working this all out, with an assumed ~1800 RPM base motor, any fixed speed motor with this arrangement is going to be very limited to the lowest speed pulley set to avoid overspeeding the lathe.

If I were to leave it fixed speed, I would probably end up wanting a motor pulley of ~1.5" and a large ~10" matching pulley on the transmission side.

Otherwise, if I keep with the parts that I have now, I would be able to take an 1800 RPM motor and use the middle step pulley ratio to get a reasonable ratio. Keeping in mind the max speed of around 600 RPM desired on the lathe, that would relate to an 1800 RPM motor at about 78% of full speed or 1300 RPM. I think keeping a reasonable minimum speed of around 500 RPM I should still be able to reach the same approximate range provided by the original step pulleys, and have a reasonably low back gear speed. 

Correct me if any of this seems wrong!



I happen to have access to a variety of surplus industrial parts due to my work. A few things I have at the moment to play with/choose from:



Allen-Bradley PowerFlex 4M AC VFD rated 3HP for 230VAC 3PH. Will de-rate to 1HP on single phase.



KBWM-240 Max 3/4HP 180V/3.5A DC Speed controller:



Also a friend has this 1HP 1800 RPM DC motor (180V max 4.5A):



I am somewhat tempted to see if the 1HP DC motor will work on the DC speed controller I have, if kept lightly loaded. 

Otherwise in keeping the variable speed expenditures to a minimum, if I want to properly match motors and controllers, I would have three basic options, all of which work out to be about the same cost!

1. Purchase a 3PH motor. A number available on Surplus Center 1/2-1HP for under $150. Bonus, they are 1800 RPM inverter duty rated, and brand new.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electr...ge_no=1&fq=ATR_Enclosure:TEFC&fq=ATR_RPM:1750

2. Purchase a 3/4 HP DC motor - $160
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electr...-1750-RPM-180-VDC-LEESON-SS-MOTOR-10-3001.axd

3. Purchase a 1HP+ rated DC speed controller. $85 if I can hobble together a heatsink, ~$145 with heatsink
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electr...rs/90-180-VDC-SPEED-CONTROL-W-POT-11-2269.axd


Lastly I would need to of course figure out a way to mount everything and tension belts. Surplus center has adjustable motor bases fairly cheap which would at least take care of the electric motor to transmission belt tension. If I can set up the motor and transmission on a single plane, and have this pivot from the floor to fall via gravity rearward I think this could work.


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## wolfsburged (Sep 20, 2016)

Forgot to add, I ordered a set of four of these leveling feet:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#63965K67

Also put in an order with blue chip machine shop for some A/B/C oils.

The cast iron legs are primed and hopefully will be able to finish working on their paint the rest of this week/weekend.



I did not get the South Bend wrenches with the lathe so I would like to find those, an MT2 taper drill chuck for the tailstock, etc.


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## silverhawk (Sep 22, 2016)

wolfsburged said:


> Forgot to add, I ordered a set of four of these leveling feet:
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#63965K67
> 
> Also put in an order with blue chip machine shop for some A/B/C oils.
> ...



It is looking great! You have access to things I can only dream of. I have to settle with single phase, 110v, and the cheapest way forward is the 1725 rpm a/c motor I am trying to get connected.

You are also correct. For a 1725 rpm motor, you will need that 10" pulley. The counter shafts had something similar in size that was driven by the motors, which was also usually an a/c motor at the time. The original motor was a 1/3 hp motor. The big factor is the flat belt pulley size, and the cone pulley size. If those are equal, the ten might not be enough with a 1725 rpm motor. If you can do a variable speed motor, that's what you want. I think I tossed something on that website that had a pulley size calculator and would tell you the spindle speed, with a counter shaft.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## wolfsburged (Sep 26, 2016)

Small updates. Fired up the old washing machine motor and verified it is an 1800 RPM motor, however the bearings are shot in it, and it clearly just isn't the right thing. So will be continuing down the DC motor replacement path.

Have been thinking about how to mount the countershaft and deal with belts.

Searching through Google images for lathe countershafts I ran into this, and I think will use this as a basis for my setup:



My plan is this:
Purchase one 10' section of SUPERSTRUT 1-5/8-in x 1-5/8-in Gold-Galvanized Half Slot Channel Strut and a few 3/8 spring nuts from Lowe's. Cut strut in half and mount the two 5' sections vertically on the concrete block wall vertically, a few feet apart. Then I will use something like a 2x6 to span the two vertical strut sections in a horizontal fashion and bolt through to the nuts. I will mount the countershaft to the top 2x6, using my wood router to slot the mounting holes for the countershaft horizontally to allow for alignment adjustment. Once the lathe is in place, I will install the belt and raise the top 2x6 and tighten it to the strut to set the belt tension. The bottom 2x6 will have the motor mounted, likewise with horizontal mounting slots for adjustment. After the top 2x6 is set and first belt is tensioned, I will pull the second 2x6 down and tighten to the strut to set the belt tension between motor and countershaft. By using the strut solution I can easily adjust either belt tension later, and the cost to install is minimal.

The old washing machine motor has a 2.25" OD flat belt pulley with a reducing bushing to about 3/8" shaft. I need to work on getting this off the motor and the ID of the bushing opened up to 5/8". If only I had a lathe ;-)


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## silverhawk (Oct 2, 2016)

That's where I got lucky.  I had a 1942 Dunlap wood lathe (534.0601) with a metal attachment (basically, a cross/compound slide assembly that bolted to the ways - no lead screw).  That let me do some cutting and facing on some parts that brought the South Bend to life.  Now the Dunlap can go back to being just a wood lathe, but it definitely assisted in the metalwork side of life.

Note, you can make wooden parts that will temporarily work using a drill press, or even a portable drill (cordless or otherwise) and chucking the "work" up.  David Gingery showed some of this in his books about building things from "scrap", using a wooden pulley to turn a better metal pulley.


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## wolfsburged (Oct 2, 2016)

A bit more progress.

Finished painting the legs and "chip pan", and installed the leveling feet:



Going back and forth on the countershaft some more. I decided to go with a V-Belt between motor and countershaft, and ordered a 10" 4L sheave with 7/8" bore for the countershaft as well as a 1/5" 4L sheave with 5/8" bore for the motor. Bought an adjustable motor base for the motor.

With everything laid out on the original transmission I then decided to just build a new shorter countershaft assembly as the existing one is 3 feet long!



So I have ordered some 7/8" bore pillow block bearings (these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002BBH79I/), and a 7/8" keyed shaft, 12" long from McMaster. This should allow me to build a much more compact countershaft after I remove the cone pulley from the existing transmission shaft and move it over. Then I can have the motor on its adjustable base mounted to the same plate/assembly as the countershaft which will also simplify that portion of the belt tensioning process.

Ordered a few more parts I need to complete my DC drive setup, and found a PWM DC controller that should work and be actually rated for the 1HP motor. My buddy is hopefully dropping the motor off this week, so hopefully more progress soon-ish.


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## wolfsburged (Oct 30, 2016)

No updates for awhile because I've been busy.

So here's where we stand:
DC speed control setup has been completed, wired, and tested. I've mounted the motor and built a custom counter shaft assembly on a 24"x24" piece of 3/4" plywood. This is attached to the concrete wall via strut and is slotted for adjustment. I can therefore move it up and down on the wall to adjust the belt tension on the flat belt, and side to side to adjust for tracking/alignment. 

I've got everything mounted up on the wall, and set the lathe in place.

Now I am waiting on getting the proper length flat belt.


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## silverhawk (Oct 31, 2016)

Looking beautiful!  I do have a question for you, though.  I just picked all 12 threading change gears up for a fairly good deal, and tried setting them up just to run them (easier to oil them).  Cutting a 30 TPI screw would require the 16 tooth gear on the stud, and the 60 tooth gear on the lead screw.  But, when I went to set that one up for the oiling, I found the small gear on the idler would not reach the 60 tooth lead screw lathe, as the larger idler gear (they are linked together) prevented them from meshing.  Have you tried it on yours?  If it worked well enough, how did you do it?


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## wolfsburged (Oct 31, 2016)

silverhawk said:


> Looking beautiful!  I do have a question for you, though.  I just picked all 12 threading change gears up for a fairly good deal, and tried setting them up just to run them (easier to oil them).  Cutting a 30 TPI screw would require the 16 tooth gear on the stud, and the 60 tooth gear on the lead screw.  But, when I went to set that one up for the oiling, I found the small gear on the idler would not reach the 60 tooth lead screw lathe, as the larger idler gear (they are linked together) prevented them from meshing.  Have you tried it on yours?  If it worked well enough, how did you do it?



Well that I cannot tell you. I have every change gear except the 60 tooth it appears. I haven't tried installing any other change gears yet, just inventoried.


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## wolfsburged (Nov 16, 2016)

Getting very close to run time! Got the flat belt in and glued up...


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## wolfsburged (Nov 19, 2016)

Lathe is under power! Belt is way too long, need to level it out, etc but it is spinning! Cut some test chips on aluminum, still need to learn what I'm doing but it's a start!






The chuck that is on the lathe is a three jaw independent. I was having a hard time getting it indicated in. I think I will be searching for a self-centering chuck soon!


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## brino (Nov 19, 2016)

wolfsburged said:


> it is spinning! Cut some test chips on aluminum, still need to learn what I'm doing but it's a start!
> !



Congratulations that is a big step!

-brino


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## wolfsburged (Nov 21, 2016)

Noticed there seemed to be some excessive play on the rear headstock bearing once I put some material in the chuck and had some lever action going. So I read up on the South Bend H4 bulletin on measuring and adjusting bearing play:
http://www.wswells.com/data/howto/H-4.pdf

Well someone has definitely been in there before messing with the shims. I followed the procedure called out in the literature.

Front / chuck side bearing was almost in-spec. 2-2.5 thou of play up/down. 

Rear / change gear side was way out. 17 thou up/down.

Took the rear bearing cap off. Only one shim present, on the rear/rear position. Looked like a scrap of aluminum. 65 thou thick.

Front bearing cap had two shims. Front/rear shim was same aluminum shim, 65 thou as rear. Front/front shim was maybe copper, 24 thou thick.

Rear bearing cap actually looked better I think than the front. There are some dark spots shown in the photos on either side, but nothing that catches a fingernail. Not sure about the spindle itself, seems to be some scoring on it but again nothing catches the fingernail. 

Rear cap:









The front bearing cap has some deeper gouges near the front where the threads of the spindle are near, probably takes a lot of the abuse of the loading of the lathe. Can barely catch a fingernail on these, but otherwise this was a tighter bearing cap.





One concern is that the caps have not been sitting level, I would think that the shims ought to be the same height front and rear. 

The front seems like if I could just lap the aluminum shim down a thou or two that would get it back into spec.

The rear seems like I should start over with new shims and evenly distribute front/rear starting with some new laminated shims then test and adjust from there?

I've ordered an assortment of carbon steel shim stock up to 0.032" in varied thicknesses to play with.

Lastly I found some interesting information about the chuck. Independent three jaw chucks are pretty uncommon. The chuck is a Skinner No 605 and I found patent dates of 1891 on it. I found a reference in a 1911 catalog which calls it a combination chuck - a universal AND independent. There is a tiny knob/stud on the back I didn't know what it did. You can move it apparently to engage or disengage the universal scroll mechanism. It seems that chuck is even older than the lathe by a good bit possibly!


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## silverhawk (Dec 4, 2016)

Wow, those bearings look _much_ better than mine.  I did have to go through the adjustment procedure for mine, too, but I had lost the shims when it came apart, and needed to manufacture some shims of my own.  Got it fixed out.  Let me know when you have that thing aligned, and post more videos!


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## wolfsburged (Dec 4, 2016)

Well I was able to get the bearings adjusted in. I took out all of the old shims and started over. Now both are at 1 thou clearance and spin freely.

I also cut the belt down, skived it and glued it back up. This allowed me to bring the lathe back against the wall closer and have clearance for the far right pulley step without rubbing the back gear shaft.

Then I made an adjuster for the belt tension by welding two nuts to the lower strut and using all thread so that I can push either side of the motor base up to fine tune. This seems to work really well. I also tested the back gear and luckily it runs smooth despite having a missing tooth.




I got an MT3 dead center to fit in the headstock. I also won an Ebay auction for an assortment of lathe dogs.


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## ROCKS310 (Feb 17, 2020)

wolfsburged said:


> Well I was able to get the bearings adjusted in. I took out all of the old shims and started over. Now both are at 1 thou clearance and spin freely.
> 
> I also cut the belt down, skived it and glued it back up. This allowed me to bring the lathe back against the wall closer and have clearance for the far right pulley step without rubbing the back gear shaft.
> 
> ...


sorry I'm late but do you have  or know,  where I can get a pr. of those brass bushings and part number thanks the SB lathe I'm working on is a 02/20/1929, 9" swing x 4 1/2 bed, ser #41804, DPC 182-HS, CAT#382-R, trying to find out what my friend has and a parts manual, also retainers with wipers, thank you


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