# PM-1340GT/833T(V): Lots of questions



## synfinatic (Dec 6, 2020)

So I'm at that point where I'm seriously thinking about pulling the trigger on a lathe & mill. Been lurking here and other places and doing a lot of research and right now I'm looking at the PM-1340GT and PM-833TV (or maybe just T???).    A big thanks to everyone here on this forum in particular for posting up your experiences and thoughts about these machines.

These will be my first machines and I've watched a lot of videos, have seen lathes and CNC mills operate in person a few times, etc, but no hands on experience.  Right now the plan is to get both at the same time, but I might just start out with the lathe at first.  I'm 100% hobbyist and never going to try "go pro" so not planning on using this every day.   I'm squarely in the "buy once, cry once" camp, but there are limits.  For example a knee mill is just too big from what I can tell to fit in my garage (well at least without making compromises I'm not willing to make).  Sure I'd love something like a 1440GT, but I just can't rationalize the price.  Basically, I feel that these are the nicest, biggest machines I can stomach.

Anyways, a number questions:

First about the 1340GT:

I'm trying to figure out where this should go in my garage.  Realistically, how much of a gap will I need behind the machine (assuming it will be up against a wall)?  Seems like it might end up with a foot or more for the 1340GT since I'll be using an engine hoist to install it and will need to put one of the legs behind the base?  I don't own an engine hoist so will have to buy, borrow or rent so not exactly sure what is reasonable here and I've never installed something like this.  Also, not sure about any concerns for maintenance, wiring, etc.
Speaking of engine hoists, I am a little worried about clearance during install since the area of my garage I'm looking to install it has some built-in storage 85" above the floor.  I assume that should be plenty to work, but probably better to check if anyone has tried to install it in a similar situation.
How much room to the side of the headstock is reasonable?  I assume without any support other than the spider I would make myself, realistically with the 1-9/16" hole a couple of feet is more than enough before things get scary?  I'll probably want a few feet just to access the change gears, wiring, etc as well.
I understand the tail stock doesn't really need any space off to the right?
I used to hear that lighter machines with less HP really should use HSS.  Lately though, I've noticed more people are talking up the benefits of carbide tooling for hobbyist machines.   Not to mention "light and low power" is relative- although I assume the 1340GT still qualifies?  I was originally kinda afraid of having to not just learn how to use these machines, but also how to grind HSS tools, but watching some videos... _doesn't seem that hard to learn_.  Also, not all carbide tooling is equal.  I'm so confused now.  If I can go carbide and make the learning curve a bit less steep, I'm very tempted to do that.   Basically what I'm asking is for recommendations, ideally with links or names to things that don't suck too much, but when the newbie breaks it won't have him crying.  If the PM kits aren't horrible then happy to get those.  Or if I should do HSS that's awesome too... any recommendations for good bang/buck?
Never used a lathe before and seems like getting the 3ph option + VFD is a nice upgrade since it allows more fine control as well as higher RPM than stock (2000 apparently is perfectly reasonable with the Norton gearbox).  I also grok that doing a VFD right isn't exactly cheap, but if it's worth it, then it's something I'd strongly consider doing.  Seems like people got by for 100 years without VFD's, but then again we survived riding horses for longer than that and I sure don't want to give up my car.  Or just get the 1ph motor and run it like that and worry about upgrading to VFD later?  Sounds like the PM 3ph motor actually works pretty well for VFD, but there are better options?  Mostly, not sure if VFD really helps newbies like myself enough to warrant the added upfront cost.
Should I be concerned the cross slide only has markings for +/-60deg?  I assume if you want to cut threads at 29deg you just eyeball it?  No idea if other, unmarked values are at all useful?
Curious about other accessories like drill chucks, BXA tool posts, live centers, "high precision" 3 & 4 jaw lathe chucks, etc?  If not from PM, do you have suggestions for reasonably priced quality options that is appropriate for these machines?
Sounds like I'll probably want to replace the belt and tool post right away and get some basic tooling.  I figure my first lathe projects will be learning projects and things that will be useful- like a machinist hammer.  Any other things/tooling I should consider buying up front?
Was not planning on getting DRO.  But, some people say once you get DRO on a lathe you'll never go back?
And the 833T(V):

Same question about the gap to the wall in the rear.  Is 6" enough?  I assume that would give me enough room to do whatever I might need, like tram the column?
I have a heavy duty (and quite heavy) metal storage box for ammo.  Measures 28"W x 32"D x 30"H.  I'd love to be able to put it right next to the mill on the right hand side in the corner of the garage.  I think it is low enough it should clear the table when it moves, but I am worried that would just be in the way should I ever need to "do something"?   I assume if I do this, getting the Z axis power feed option is almost mandatory since it would likely make it harder for me to manually rotate the Z crank (especially since I'm 5'7").  Optionally, I may end up putting it on the left side of the mill (not in the corner) for other logistical purposes.  That might end up being better option due to the Z crank?
No quill DRO seems pretty lame and I've yet to find a write up of someone adding one.  Seems totally doable though right?  Any tips?
So I get the 833T will drill large holes in steel better than the 833TV.  Honestly, I don't know if I will ever CNC my mill, but I do expect to primarily use aluminum for my projects which has me leaning towards the TV model.  That said, I assume the 833TV can do larger holes in steel, just means doing it differently/slower?
Seems like the X & Z power feeds and DRO for the 833T are generally considered "must buys" sooner rather than later.  Worth getting from PM?
PM is of course offering a bunch of other accessories.  From what I gather, I'm probably better off with a high quality vise for the mill sold elsewhere.  Beyond that, I don't hear much about their price vs. quality?  Collets, keyless drill chucks, etc?
Recommendations for tooling to start off with?  I know some 2 & 4 flute endmils for steel/aluminum, roughers, something to face and the vise, clamps/T nuts and parallels.  Seems like there are a billion options and it's rather overwhelming.  If there are any "starter kits" you can recommend that would be awesome.
People do seem to complain about the draw bar on the 833T(V) being difficult to use.  Thoughts?  I haven't searched for an aftermarket power draw bar option.  Might be a cool project though. 
Are people finding the column trammed well enough from the factory?  Maybe it's just me, but trying to do it right the first time on my $6K mill and knowing I'm epoxying it in place as it drys is _scary_.  Seems like it would be a really expensive mistake to get wrong.
General questions:

There are flood coolant options for both and I grok the value of coolant, but I also know other options exist (FogBuster, etc) but other than "coolant good" I don't know much.  Worth getting from PM?
I also will need a band saw.  PM sells a "mid priced" one.  I've seen a band saw operate a few times, and I really don't understand the difference between a $1300 and $2500 band saw, but I do see the difference from the $300 one from HF.  I'm sure the $2500 options are "better" somehow, but do I really need/want it and just not know it yet or am I totally fine paying $1300?  I assume it's better than the one from HF for $1K?
General wiring question: I have 100A into a small panel into my garage.  The electric car charger is on a 240/40A breaker and my 60gal compressor is on a 240/30A.  The panel is full (the other 120V breakers are doubles) and would like to avoid installing a larger one if possible.  Was thinking of just running power from the lathe/mill to the outlet for the compressor and then just plug in whatever machine I need as necessary.  Thoughts?  Since it's a 60gal compressor I was thinking I probably wouldn't need to run it that often while running the machines, but that might overly optimistic and I really need to budget in for a bigger panel or maybe wire the machines in to the car charger circuit- although that may be more expensive for the lathe due to the wiring distance.
Lastly, is there anything you wish someone told you before you bought all this stuff and threw it in your garage?  I know the basics (You'll end up spending equal or more in tooling than for the machine.)  and I've read various reports and threads by David Best and others here.  Seems like the 1340GT is a clear favorite while the 833T seems like a good quality machine with a few unfortunate quirks that are dictated by its price point?
Whew... I think that's it?


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## ddickey (Dec 6, 2020)

So what's you question? LOL


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## synfinatic (Dec 6, 2020)

ddickey said:


> So what's you question? LOL



It's called "analysis paralysis"


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## Winegrower (Dec 6, 2020)

Here’s my advice:   If I did not have a Bridgeport and a 2500 pound lathe, I would be miserable.   As it is, I am only occasionally sad.
Mainly about not having a DoAll bandsaw.


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 6, 2020)

Lol.  You've narrowed it down.  That's awesome.  I think the 1340GT is a great choice (it's the one I'm leaning towards myself for my first lathe)  If I was going with a desk top, Taiwanese mill, I think the 833T would be my choice also.  One thing in your post above did concern me you said:

* ...the area of my garage I'm looking to install it has some built-in storage 85" above the floor. *

Was that just in the area for the lathe?  If so, that's probably fine, but the 833T would be limited there.  It has a max height on a stand of 88".  It says more typically 75", but you need to figure max height of the machine, plus a bit of room for accessing your draw bar.

Anyhow, I'll let someone with more experience answer your specific questions.  I mainly just wanted to welcome you aboard and congratulate you on your decision.   I grew up in San Jose.  What part do you live in?


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## .LMS. (Dec 6, 2020)

points for using the word grok  !


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## synfinatic (Dec 6, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> Lol. You've narrowed it down. That's awesome. I think the 1340GT is a great choice (it's the one I'm leaning towards myself for my first lathe) If I was going with a desk top, Taiwanese mill, I think the 833T would be my choice also. One thing in your post above did concern me you said:
> 
> * ...the area of my garage I'm looking to install it has some built-in storage 85" above the floor. *
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's just the area for the lathe.  The mill area has a much higher ceiling and the 88" won't be a problem.

I'm over off of Bascom, near the Pruneyard.


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## 7milesup (Dec 6, 2020)

I have the 833T.  If it was available when I bought my mill I would have opted for the 833TV.  Reason being is that the 833TV is belt driven resulting in a quieter mill (mine is louder than I expected) along with a higher top end speed which is better for aluminum.  I believe that the 833TV is also a better candidate for CNC conversion because of the existing belt drive configuration.
Congrats on your decision.


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## davidpbest (Dec 6, 2020)

If you would like some constructive feedback, DM me.  I have used a PM1340GT for 6 years, and a benchtop mill like the 833 for almost 20 years.  In addition I'm writing a book for people like you about indexable carbide tooling for the lathe (see attached).


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 6, 2020)

synfinatic said:


> I'm over off of Bascom, near the Pruneyard.



Wow.  Small world.  I grew up near Westgate.


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## Winegrower (Dec 6, 2020)

When do you plan to hit the market, David?   This looks like “a story that needs to be told”.

Here’s a purchase commitment!


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## ahazi (Dec 6, 2020)

7milesup said:


> I have the 833T.  If it was available when I bought my mill I would have opted for the 833TV.  Reason being is that the 833TV is belt driven resulting in a quieter mill (mine is louder than I expected) along with a higher top end speed which is better for aluminum.  I believe that the 833TV is also a better candidate for CNC conversion because of the existing belt drive configuration.
> Congrats on your decision.


I agree about the noise. The gears, especially at higher RPM are quite noisy. Not a big deal when you do deep cuts or use large tools that create their own noise removing big chips but it can get annoying otherwise. 

I decided to keep my 35 years old RF25 (belt driven round column mill/drill) as a drill because it is quieter and allows me to drill while the PM833T has some setup that I don't want to take apart. In low RPM the noise level of the PM833T is reasonable and I like the high torque with large cutters.

Ariel


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## matthewsx (Dec 6, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> Wow.  Small world.  I grew up near Westgate.


I grew up at Bollinger & Miller with a short stint in Campbell. Happy to be back in NorCal walking distance from the beach. 

Your machine choices sound fine, just place the order and start making chips.

John


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## davidpbest (Dec 6, 2020)

Winegrower said:


> When do you plan to hit the market, David?   This looks like “a story that needs to be told”.
> 
> Here’s a purchase commitment!


Thanks.  The manuscript is basically finished - just doing final edits and fact checking.  It's been a labor of love for going on 4 months now.  I'm struggling with what to do with it once it's finished.  Several options being considered including eBook, printed with either perfect or spiral binding, going straight to YouTube fame and fortune, etc.     If you have suggestions, let me know.


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## matthewsx (Dec 6, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> Thanks.  The manuscript is basically finished - just doing final edits and fact checking.  It's been a labor of love for going on 4 months now.  I'm struggling with what to do with it once it's finished.  Several options being considered including eBook, printed with either perfect or spiral binding, going straight to YouTube fame and fortune, etc.     If you have suggestions, let me know.



Digital format, copyleft and accept donations through PayPal or Venmo.

John


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## Aukai (Dec 7, 2020)

Best seller material


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## ddickey (Dec 7, 2020)

@davidpbest If you need a proof reader let me know. My nephew does that.


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 7, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> I grew up at Bollinger & Miller with a short stint in Campbell. Happy to be back in NorCal walking distance from the beach.
> 
> John



Wow.  Smaller world.  My highschool years were near Freedom, just outside Watsonville.  Spent a lot of time in Santa Cruz.  Hope you came through the fires safely.


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## parshal (Dec 7, 2020)

I have both the machines you're looking at.  I posted a thread about adding a quill DRO to the 833TV.  @davidpbest has also posted in a couple places the ones he's added on similar machines.  It took quite a bit of time for me but it works great.


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## Rich V (Dec 7, 2020)

My 2 cents. I own a 1340 GT lathe & 935TV mill for several years as a hobbyist.
First about the 1340GT:

First about the 1340GT:

I'm trying to figure out where this should go in my garage. Realistically, how much of a gap will I need behind the machine (assuming it will be up against a wall)? Seems like it might end up with a foot or more for the 1340GT since I'll be using an engine hoist tofrom install it and will need to put one of the legs behind the base? I don't own an engine hoist so will have to buy, borrow or rent so not exactly sure what is reasonable here and I've never installed something like this. Also, not sure about any concerns for maintenance, wiring, etc. You can place the lathe very close to the back wall just leave enough space so you can access & work on the motor and electric box should the need arise. 
Speaking of engine hoists, I am a little worried about clearance during install since the area of my garage I'm looking to install it has some built-in storage 85" above the floor. I assume that should be plenty to work, but probably better to check if anyone has tried to install it in a similar situation. Typically you place the lathe stand where you want the lathe then lower the lathe onto the base. You'll need to decide what will work with the space you have.
How much room to the side of the headstock is reasonable? As much as you can spare but at least 3 feet so you can run long stock. I have run 4 ft of 1.5 inch stock using a spider. I assume without any support other than the spider I would make myself, realistically with the 1-9/16" hole a couple of feet is more than enough before things get scary? I'll probably want a few feet just to access the change gears, wiring, etc as well.
I understand the tail stock doesn't really need any space off to the right? You will need space to remove the tail stock for cleaning also that end of the lathe is a great place to hang a tool rack for your tail stock accessories. At least 18 inches.
I used to hear that lighter machines with less HP really should use HSS. Lately though, I've noticed more people are talking up the benefits of carbide tooling for hobbyist machines. Not to mention "light and low power" is relative- although I assume the 1340GT still qualifies? I was originally kinda afraid of having to not just learn how to use these machines, but also how to grind HSS tools, but watching some videos... _doesn't seem that hard to learn_. Also, not all carbide tooling is equal. I'm so confused now. If I can go carbide and make the learning curve a bit less steep, I'm very tempted to do that. Basically what I'm asking is for recommendations, ideally with links or names to things that don't suck too much, but when the newbie breaks it won't have him crying. If the PM kits aren't horrible then happy to get those. Or if I should do HSS that's awesome too... any recommendations for good bang/buck? I used carbide on a 9 inch Southbend lathe, the 1340 loves carbide and so will you. What to buy is a question worth it's own thread.
Never used a lathe before and seems like getting the 3ph option + VFD is a nice upgrade since it allows more fine control as well as higher RPM than stock (2000 apparently is perfectly reasonable with the Norton gearbox). I also grok that doing a VFD right isn't exactly cheap, but if it's worth it, then it's something I'd strongly consider doing. Seems like people got by for 100 years without VFD's, but then again we survived riding horses for longer than that and I sure don't want to give up my car. Or just get the 1ph motor and run it like that and worry about upgrading to VFD later? Sounds like the PM 3ph motor actually works pretty well for VFD, but there are better options? Mostly, not sure if VFD really helps newbies like myself enough to warrant the added upfront cost. I added a VFD after ~6 months of buying and it was well worth the cost & effort so I'm all for getting a VFD.
Should I be concerned the cross slide only has markings for +/-60deg? I assume if you want to cut threads at 29deg you just eyeball it? No idea if other, unmarked values are at all useful?  +/-60deg is plenty. As to threading the compound angle can be set at ~ 29 or 0 degrees. The tool geometry sets the thread angle and the tool is always aligned to be at 90 degrees from the work piece.  
Curious about other accessories like drill chucks, BXA tool posts, live centers, "high precision" 3 & 4 jaw lathe chucks, etc? If not from PM, do you have suggestions for reasonably priced quality options that is appropriate for these machines? That is a big question! At a minimum you will want/need a quality 3 & 4 jaw chuck, a live center and a good drill chuck. A quick change tool post is a must in my opinion. As to what brand to buy, that is determined more by your wallet. Lots of brands are available and everyone will have their own suggestions. Tell us how much $$ you can spend and we will spend it for you.
Sounds like I'll probably want to replace the belt and tool post right away and get some basic tooling. I figure my first lathe projects will be learning projects and things that will be useful- like a machinist hammer. Any other things/tooling I should consider buying up front? See above, whatever you can afford.
Was not planning on getting DRO. But, some people say once you get DRO on a lathe you'll never go back? I have the 2 axis DRO from PM and could not go back to using dials. Buy it installed is my recommendation $$ allowing. 
And the 833T(V): I'm not familiar with this mill so limited answers from me.

Same question about the gap to the wall in the rear. Is 6" enough? I assume that would give me enough room to do whatever I might need, like tram the column?
I have a heavy duty (and quite heavy) metal storage box for ammo. Measures 28"W x 32"D x 30"H. I'd love to be able to put it right next to the mill on the right hand side in the corner of the garage. I think it is low enough it should clear the table when it moves, but I am worried that would just be in the way should I ever need to "do something"? I assume if I do this, getting the Z axis power feed option is almost mandatory since it would likely make it harder for me to manually rotate the Z crank (especially since I'm 5'7"). Optionally, I may end up putting it on the left side of the mill (not in the corner) for other logistical purposes. That might end up being better option due to the Z crank?
No quill DRO seems pretty lame and I've yet to find a write up of someone adding one. Seems totally doable though right? Any tips? There is always a way to add this and people here can help.
So I get the 833T will drill large holes in steel better than the 833TV. Honestly, I don't know if I will ever CNC my mill, but I do expect to primarily use aluminum for my projects which has me leaning towards the TV model. That said, I assume the 833TV can do larger holes in steel, just means doing it differently/slower?
Seems like the X & Z power feeds and DRO for the 833T are generally considered "must buys" sooner rather than later. Worth getting from PM? The X power feed is a must for any mill. The other axes have benefits but get the X at a minimum. 
PM is of course offering a bunch of other accessories. From what I gather, I'm probably better off with a high quality vise for the mill sold elsewhere. Beyond that, I don't hear much about their price vs. quality? Collets, keyless drill chucks, etc? Get a good keyless drill chuck and a set of collets that match the spindle. After you become familiar with using the mill a set of ER collets & holder can be useful. 
Recommendations for tooling to start off with? I know some 2 & 4 flute endmils for steel/aluminum, roughers, something to face and the vise, clamps/T nuts and parallels. Seems like there are a billion options and it's rather overwhelming. If there are any "starter kits" you can recommend that would be awesome. As a newbie stick with HHS cutters. You will wreck a lot of tooling learning and HSS is tougher and cheaper to learn with.
People do seem to complain about the draw bar on the 833T(V) being difficult to use. Thoughts? I haven't searched for an aftermarket power draw bar option. Might be a cool project though. 
Are people finding the column trammed well enough from the factory? Maybe it's just me, but trying to do it right the first time on my $6K mill and knowing I'm epoxying it in place as it drys is _scary_. Seems like it would be a really expensive mistake to get wrong.
General questions:

There are flood coolant options for both and I grok the value of coolant, but I also know other options exist (FogBuster, etc) but other than "coolant good" I don't know much. Worth getting from PM? Flood cooling is not needed as a hobbyist and is very messy (my opinion). Get a  Noga mister and it can be used on both the mill & lathe. Buy a gallon of Cool mist and you'll be set for years.
I also will need a band saw. PM sells a "mid priced" one. I've seen a band saw operate a few times, and I really don't understand the difference between a $1300 and $2500 band saw, but I do see the difference from the $300 one from HF. I'm sure the $2500 options are "better" somehow, but do I really need/want it and just not know it yet or am I totally fine paying $1300? I assume it's better than the one from HF for $1K?
General wiring question: I have 100A into a small panel into my garage. The electric car charger is on a 240/40A breaker and my 60gal compressor is on a 240/30A. The panel is full (the other 120V breakers are doubles) and would like to avoid installing a larger one if possible. Was thinking of just running power from the lathe/mill to the outlet for the compressor and then just plug in whatever machine I need as necessary. Thoughts? Since it's a 60gal compressor I was thinking I probably wouldn't need to run it that often while running the machines, but that might overly optimistic and I really need to budget in for a bigger panel or maybe wire the machines in to the car charger circuit- although that may be more expensive for the lathe due to the wiring distance.
Lastly, is there anything you wish someone told you before you bought all this stuff and threw it in your garage? Yes the cost of the basic machines is just the beginning of the $$$ you will spend for tooling. Thankfully you can acquire what you need over time and you will always have a list of Christmas presents for when someone asks what you want.  I know the basics (You'll end up spending equal or more in tooling than for the machine.) and I've read various reports and threads by David Best and others here. Seems like the 1340GT is a clear favorite while the 833T seems like a good quality machine with a few unfortunate quirks that are dictated by its price point?


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## matthewsx (Dec 7, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> Wow.  Smaller world.  My highschool years were near Freedom, just outside Watsonville.  Spent a lot of time in Santa Cruz.  Hope you came through the fires safely.



just smoke and ash here. Other members were a lot closer to the fires.

John


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## tjb (Dec 7, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Best seller material


 Ditto.


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## synfinatic (Dec 7, 2020)

Thanks @Rich V !  That's very helpful.


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## macardoso (Dec 7, 2020)

synfinatic said:


> I'm trying to figure out where this should go in my garage. Realistically, how much of a gap will I need behind the machine (assuming it will be up against a wall)? Seems like it might end up with a foot or more for the 1340GT since I'll be using an engine hoist to install it and will need to put one of the legs behind the base? I don't own an engine hoist so will have to buy, borrow or rent so not exactly sure what is reasonable here and I've never installed something like this. Also, not sure about any concerns for maintenance, wiring, etc.



For a lathe this size, I'd want to be able to walk behind it with relative ease. Sometimes helpful for setup, and very helpful for cleaning the chips that will fly back there.



synfinatic said:


> How much room to the side of the headstock is reasonable? I assume without any support other than the spider I would make myself, realistically with the 1-9/16" hole a couple of feet is more than enough before things get scary? I'll probably want a few feet just to access the change gears, wiring, etc as well.



You need enough room to swing the headstock door open. Beyond that, I'd want a minimum of 36" from the face of the chuck to the left so I could use 3' bars of stock. You also need enough room to walk around the side to get behind the lathe.



synfinatic said:


> I understand the tail stock doesn't really need any space off to the right?



I've taken mine off the lathe a few times for various reasons. It would probably be wise to not get it so close to a wall that this is impossible. 



synfinatic said:


> I used to hear that lighter machines with less HP really should use HSS. Lately though, I've noticed more people are talking up the benefits of carbide tooling for hobbyist machines. Not to mention "light and low power" is relative- although I assume the 1340GT still qualifies? I was originally kinda afraid of having to not just learn how to use these machines, but also how to grind HSS tools, but watching some videos... _doesn't seem that hard to learn_. Also, not all carbide tooling is equal. I'm so confused now. If I can go carbide and make the learning curve a bit less steep, I'm very tempted to do that. Basically what I'm asking is for recommendations, ideally with links or names to things that don't suck too much, but when the newbie breaks it won't have him crying. If the PM kits aren't horrible then happy to get those. Or if I should do HSS that's awesome too... any recommendations for good bang/buck?



You'll find hundreds of discussions on here to this topic. Both options are great. Carbide works fine at slow speeds and light cuts, but select the right inserts. I'm a carbide guy. I like that the inserts are always the right geometry, and I do not grind anything in my basement shop due to the mess it makes.



synfinatic said:


> Should I be concerned the cross slide only has markings for +/-60deg? I assume if you want to cut threads at 29deg you just eyeball it? No idea if other, unmarked values are at all useful?



Yes, but there are ways around this. I bought a 30 60 90 setup block from Shars for cheap that I use to set the compound to 30 degrees referencing the chuck face.



synfinatic said:


> Curious about other accessories like drill chucks, BXA tool posts, live centers, "high precision" 3 & 4 jaw lathe chucks, etc? If not from PM, do you have suggestions for reasonably priced quality options that is appropriate for these machines?



I buy import stuff. Been impressed with Shars. Bit more expensive than some, but they give good service and better than average quality for import goods IMO.



synfinatic said:


> Was not planning on getting DRO. But, some people say once you get DRO on a lathe you'll never go back?



I waited 2 years to get mine. Big fan but it isn't necessary. You should probably use the lathe for a month or two without it to learn backlash compensation and technique. Install is a pain but not terrible. AliExpress has some nice models for $300 or so.



synfinatic said:


> Are people finding the column trammed well enough from the factory? Maybe it's just me, but trying to do it right the first time on my $6K mill and knowing I'm epoxying it in place as it drys is _scary_. Seems like it would be a really expensive mistake to get wrong.



Consider the epoxy a bedding compound. If you get it wrong, it will not hold the parts together, scrape it off and try again. 



synfinatic said:


> There are flood coolant options for both and I grok the value of coolant, but I also know other options exist (FogBuster, etc) but other than "coolant good" I don't know much. Worth getting from PM?



Flood coolant will go bad if not used often. Fogbusters are nice but the aerosol mist is hazardous in enclosed spaces. Oil smokes and makes a mess. Pick your poison. I use small squirt bottles to spray on synthetic flood coolant as needed. Coolant is not recycled.



synfinatic said:


> Lastly, is there anything you wish someone told you before you bought all this stuff and threw it in your garage? I know the basics (You'll end up spending equal or more in tooling than for the machine.) and I've read various reports and threads by David Best and others here. Seems like the 1340GT is a clear favorite while the 833T seems like a good quality machine with a few unfortunate quirks that are dictated by its price point?



I think that planning for tool organization and workbench space is more important than machine layout. Maybe some sort of floor treatment to keep the oil from staining concrete.


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## synfinatic (Dec 7, 2020)

@macardoso:

Thanks for all the info.  That's useful.  

I totally thought the epoxy bedding compound was basically permanent.  That changes things.  Thanks for the info!

I've been playing with some 2d drawings of my garage space and various storage racks, machines, work benches, etc trying to find something that makes best use of the space and provides a good working area.  Previous owners of our home left some crappy particle board storage cabinets which I'm finally getting rid of to make way for racks & see-through bins.   Trying to get more workbench work area (never can have enough) while ensuring easy access to the most important parts even when the car is in the garage.  All while trying to keep the blasting cabinet as far as possible away from the machines.  

It does mean though I really want the lathe as far back against the wall as I can.  Cleaning back there... well, I want to keep a clean shop, but we'll see. Rather push it back then have it in the way while I work on the motorcycle... wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the controls on the carriage sticking out.

I keep dreaming of doing the epoxy floor thing, but I had a friend have it done professionally and they had all kinds of problems with it peeling.  If I can find something that really does work well, it probably would be worth the effort to remove everything from the garage to make it happen... but might be a challenge with the weather if we start getting rain.  Probably now or never.


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## erikmannie (Dec 7, 2020)

I bought 3 PM machines in the last 12 months. A few things I learned:

(1) I love a factory DRO,
(2) My American Rotary AMP-10 rotary phase converter got me to the point where I was making chips much faster than if I had chosen to run a VFD,
(3) The tooling & metrology equipment will blow up anybody’s budget,
(4) Err on the side of leaving too much room behind and to the sides of a machine. I have carts with tooling on them. I wheel the carts out of the way when I need to walk behind the machine (accessing electrical panel & frequent cleaning),
(5) Precision Matthews customer service has your back. Don’t ever worry about being let down by PM,
(6) Machining is such a fun hobby, but it can be a little expensive,
(7) I gather than you are in the Bay Area. The Crucible in Oakland offers weekend manual machining classes. I took the basic class twice; this will definitely get you hitting the ground running,
(8) I moved all of my grinding operations out of the 2 car garage that contains my machine tools. I don’t want grit anywhere near a precision machined surface,
(9) Embrace both carbide and HSS. I switch back & forth for different applications,
(10) I think everybody agrees that you need an X-axis power feed on a milling machine,
(11) I use dark screw cutting oil as well as Mobilmet 766 cutting fluids. A little messy, but the surfaces of the machines are always happy,
(12) I know you know to keep your wits about you around the spindle & chuck 100% of the time. I look around a final time before I power up,
(13) I often choose what to buy while I am watching YouTube. I search for processes that interest me. All too often I see tooling or metrology equipment that is recommended for the process.


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## erikmannie (Dec 7, 2020)

I saw that you are considering storage. Almost everything I have is on carts. The chips are going to fly everywhere. 

I would not be able to keep my shop as clean as I like without being able to quickly roll away my carts, not to mention the ability to bring the tools to where you are working or reconfigure most of your shop in a few minutes.

Are you able to permanently leave the car outside the garage?


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## synfinatic (Dec 8, 2020)

@erikmannie :

Thanks for all the tips!

Regarding the car:  Honestly a big reason for having the car live in the garage is that it becomes a forcing function to clean the garage and keep it tidy & organized(-ish).  Also it's a nice BMW M2 and I'm trying to keep it nice.    So yeah, life is a series of compromises and this is one.

That said, I do have various carts/rolling toolboxes today.  When the car isn't inside, I definitely take advantage of that.  But moving the lift with the bike is a very different thing.  Yes, I can move it a little here and there, but it's a few inches. 

Anyways, going to have to play with my garage design (I drew everything to scale and then cut out representations of everything so I can see what fits where) and see if I can find a good working zone and still allow the enough room for the car + bike lift.  Maybe I can make it work and leave a few inches worth of gap without it being completely in the way.


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 8, 2020)

synfinatic said:


> @macardoso:
> I keep dreaming of doing the epoxy floor thing, but I had a friend have it done professionally and they had all kinds of problems with it peeling.  If I can find something that really does work well, it probably would be worth the effort to remove everything from the garage to make it happen... but might be a challenge with the weather if we start getting rain.  Probably now or never.


See if they used a real two part epoxy, or if it was partly solvent based.  As I understand it, with a good acid prep, and providing the cement isn't stained with oil already, the two part epoxy is extremely durable, where as the ones that use a solvent aren't


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## macardoso (Dec 8, 2020)

synfinatic said:


> @macardoso:
> 
> Thanks for all the info.  That's useful.
> 
> ...



I do have to say that I have not personally done the epoxy bedding but I have read about it. The benefit is a solid surface to place under compression to correct the inaccuracies of the interface between bolted parts. The epoxy will not be easy to remove, but it will not be as strong as the base iron. A paint scraper and elbow grease should take it off just fine. You could also coat the iron surfaces with mold release to keep the epoxy from wetting the surfaces. You aren't relying on the adhesion really, it just becomes a form matching wedge to squeeze in between the parts.

I also haven't done the epoxy floor but I started researching it. Another person recommended a non-acid stain followed by a polyurethane sealant.


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## parshal (Dec 8, 2020)

My 1340 is angled against a wall with the headstock having more space.  I can squeeze behind it to open the electrical box.  I added a DRO a year later and having it aligned like that allowed me to install the strip on the back.  If I had to move the lathe to install it wouldn't have done.  I also installed a tool holder rack on the backsplash which necessitated getting behind it.  In other words, you're going to find reasons to get behind that lathe.  Make life easier and give yourself enough room.  Even leveling the feet requires a wrench and you'd be surprised how much room you need for that.

My lathe sits in front of my truck about 4-5 feet.  More than once it's been covered in chips.  LOL


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## Rich V (Dec 8, 2020)

*synfinatic*
For a floor covering I considered the epoxy route but decided to go with this floor mat and it has served me well. Very tough and unaffected by oil/solvents. Also not as slippery when wet with water/oil as an epoxy covering. It has the added benefit of being just a bit elastic so when I drop a carbide cutter on the floor it doesn't chip the cutter (trust me this will happen). It also looks great and can be replaced by simply rolling it up if ever needed.


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## mksj (Dec 8, 2020)

My garage floors came already epoxied, they use the flakes to give it more texture and thickness. Proper prep of the floor is important, issue is if there is already grease or moisture seepage from underneath.  I probably would acid etch it and then use a concrete sealant, use to use sodium silicate also known as waterglass which would penetrate the concrete and increase the hardness and resistance to moisture. I have had no pealing from my epoxy floors, much easier to clean and no issues if oil gets on the floor to clean it up. Last house with raw concrete, once oil penetrated the concrete it was impossible to clean. I use anti-fatigue mats in front of all my machines plus the work areas, worth the spend factor when I am working all day in the shop.


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## synfinatic (Dec 8, 2020)

@Rich V:  Ohhhhhhh!!! I've never seen that.  I've always seen the honeycomb type (which is what my friend ended up going with after his poor experience with the epoxy) but of course that has a million holes for your screws, nuts and everything else to hide in.

So I slept on it some more and played with my drawing and I think I can end up with a nice 14' workbench without resorting to a 90deg bend and place the lathe 6" in front of the wall.  It would be tight because that wall is just under 8' long and it sounds like I need 18" behind the tailstock to be able to remove that?  The area in front of the headstock wouldn't be a problem because that opens up to the larger garage area (my garage is basically an L shape).  

The big challenge is that my concrete was poured in two sections: the original garage and the smaller area when we enclosed the breeze way.  The result is that the concrete seam isn't perfectly flat- there's a half inch or maybe more drop.  If the seam was in a different place maybe I could straddle it and just use the feet to compensate for the height difference, but then it would be sticking out a good 6" past the edge of the exposed corner and that's just not going to work.

However, from the photos on the PM website, it's pretty obvious that the stand isn't the full 70" wide at the base?  I'd be curious to see if someone could measure their 1340GT base and tell me how long it is at the feet.  Also, do I need the full 18" behind the tailstock in order to remove it?  Even 3-4" less would make a huge difference.


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## ArmyDoc (Dec 8, 2020)

This is a link to an article I read on the epoxy floorings... https://www.rubberflooringinc.com/epoxy.html
They have a lot of other options on their site too.


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## Aukai (Dec 8, 2020)

On my 1228, if I unscrew the locking plate under the tail stock by unscrewing the locking lever, the tail stock can be lifted off without running it off the back.


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## synfinatic (Dec 10, 2020)

Rich V said:


> I understand the tail stock doesn't really need any space off to the right? You will need space to remove the tail stock for cleaning also that end of the lathe is a great place to hang a tool rack for your tail stock accessories. At least 18 inches.



Hi Rich- so wondering does the tail stock slide off or lift off on the 1340GT?  I keep on playing with the layout of my garage and I realize if I could reduce the space there to say 12" things get _much_ easier/better.  Basically, I have a wall that is just shy of 8' that would be perfect but I don't think I can give it the full 18".

Knowing how wide the base is at the feet would help too.  The main issue is the concrete isn't level and has a drop right where I think I need to put the feet under the headstock.


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## mksj (Dec 10, 2020)

You need about 12" from the end of the bed to slide the tailstock off. The base is around 7-8" long, and you have the hand wheel which is about another 6". In a pinch you could release the locking plate on the bottom and lift it up off the lathe. You should not need 18".


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## Rich V (Dec 11, 2020)

As mentioned by mkjs you may get by with 12 inches but it will be close. If you remove the turn wheel handle then 12 inches will be OK. The spacing of the feet are ~4' 6" center to center. You should allow for 3-4 inches for the feet pad width to ensure a stable setup. I have my lathe 6.5" off the back wall.You can cast some concrete for the leg supports to even out or even raise the lathe if needed.


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## synfinatic (Dec 11, 2020)

Thanks @Rich V & @mksj.  That helps a lot.  I probably can swing a couple of inches more than 12, but everything is just gonna fit!


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## synfinatic (Dec 12, 2020)

Okay, next crazy idea:

I have a 28"W x 33"D x 30"H "Safe Cabinet Laboratory" 30hr rated safe with two drawers which I store my ammo in.  I don't actually know how heavy it is, but it's very heavy and when empty I need a friend to help move it... full of ammo, yeah, it's probably well over 300#.  The thing was left by the previous owners because I think they thought it was bolted into the concrete (for a while I thought that too.

The top is not what I'd call perfectly flat and the previous owner seemed to have painted it grey.  And there are no leveling feet or anything like that as you'd expect since it's a safe.    But I was thinking it was nearly a perfect size as a base for 833TV w/ chip tray.

I would assume you really want to level the table on the mill which pretty much kills this idea?  Or is there a way to make this into a useable base?  The safe is too deep to put under a workbench, etc and trying to figure out where I can put it that is out of the way and this would solve that nicely.


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## 7milesup (Dec 12, 2020)

If it is the correct size, and more importantly, height, I would use it.  Where there is a mill will there is a way. 
Do you think you can drill into the safe?  If so, and I am just thinking out loud here, get another piece of steel (1/2" or so) the same size as the mill base and mount that to the safe using some short stand-offs.  You could also just utilize the four mounting points with some shims or stand-offs directly under the mill.
Not sure how much "curve" to the top you are talking, but unless you get a blanchard ground piece of steel, most steel is not "flat".  Flat has a broad definition though depending on application.


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## synfinatic (Dec 12, 2020)

@7milesup:  So basically the stand is 35" high while my safe is 30".  So the table should be about 35" vs 40" or so high.  I'm also 5'7" so figuring a little low isn't the end of the world.  

As for drilling in the safe, honestly no idea.  I assume it's just a matter of time.  Seems much more of a fire-safe, than a prevent-thieves sorta safe since the locks and latches are clearly not going to keep out anybody who is determined and with basic hand tools.


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## 7milesup (Dec 12, 2020)

I think that my stand is 34" tall for my 833.  I would have to go measure it.  It is very much where I like it although with the head all the way up it is a reach to the drawbar for me, and I am 6'.


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## .LMS. (Dec 12, 2020)

synfinatic said:


> I have a 28"W x 33"D x 30"H "Safe Cabinet Laboratory" 30hr rated safe with two drawers which I store my ammo in.



I am going to suggest a totally different tack on this....

Open up the safe and sell the ammo.   With the availability issues and prices these days, if any of it is 9mm you'll have enough to buy a fully tricked out Bridgeport.


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## synfinatic (Dec 12, 2020)

.LMS. said:


> I am going to suggest a totally different tack on this....
> 
> Open up the safe and sell the ammo.   With the availability issues and prices these days, if any of it is 9mm you'll have enough to buy a fully tricked out Bridgeport.



LOL.


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## synfinatic (Dec 13, 2020)

Well my brilliant idea of bolting the mill to the top of the fire-safe hit a snag.  Further research indicates the the gypsum insulation most likely contains 30-60% asbestos and of course due to the age it is already deteriorating.  Putting holes in the steel case which will only expose the fibers to the air and drilling through that seems like a particularly bad idea.


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## 7milesup (Dec 13, 2020)

synfinatic said:


> Well my brilliant idea of bolting the mill to the top of the fire-safe hit a snag.  Further research indicates the the gypsum insulation most likely contains 30-60% asbestos and of course due to the age it is already deteriorating.  Putting holes in the steel case which will only expose the fibers to the air and drilling through that seems like a particularly bad idea.


Well, at least you caught it before you filled your lungs with cancerous material.


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## synfinatic (Dec 13, 2020)

So my next idea is to put the fire-safe about 15-20" to the right of the base of the mill.  Looks like it is low enough that it should clear the X axis handle and shouldn't be too much in the way this way.  The challenge here is now the width of the fire-safe + mill is longer and I'm a little short on horizontal space.  One way to work around this is to place the mill next to a door which opens inward (the hinge is on the other side of the door).  I'd have to lock the door while milling and move the table to the far right when not in use which is acceptable (door leads to the back yard).

To make things a little more complicated, the electrical sub-panel is on that wall about 28" from the edge of the door- so the mill will be in the way.

I'm planning on getting the X axis power feed, so was wondering:

1. On page 3 of the PM-833T manual it shows the total length of table extending 26-1/2" beyond the left edge of the chip tray.  How much does the X axis feed motor add to that?

2. Adding the X axis feed reduces the travel a few inches.  How far does the X axis feed hang off from the left edge of the chip tray with the table fully to the right?

3. In a perfect world, the mill would be pushed all the way back against the wall as that will make it easier to walk through the door, but I assume there may be need to access the back of the column? I or an electrician also may need to access the sub-panel.  I'm a little concerned some electricians would balk working on a panel right next to a mill like this, but it's hard to estimate exactly where the Z column is going to end up in relation to the panel.  I figure I'll need 6" between the back of the column and the wall?  Maybe more?  What is reasonable?  

4. How much does the column stick out past the back of the chip tray?  From the diagram it looks like about 3"?


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## .LMS. (Dec 13, 2020)

Clearly that ammo is contaminated and unsafe.   Send it to me for proper disposal.


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## synfinatic (Dec 13, 2020)

@.LMS. : I'll be sure to give that offer all the due consideration it deserves.


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