# Treadmill motor conversion for planer feed - running too fast



## KevinH (Mar 31, 2020)

Hi there,

I have a nice old Inca planer thicknesser that I have been slowly fixing up over the years. Originally these come with one motor that runs both the cutterblock and, through a system of gears to slow the RPMs, the feed rollers. On the machine I got the gears were unfortunately all bust up, being one of the only plastic parts of this machine. I decided to bypass the gears and try run a treadmill motor directly to the pulley that drives both feed rollers. I got it installed and wired with the original treadmill circuit board (a PWM if I remember correctly?) and a potentiometer for speed control.

It runs perfectly well except that even at it's very slowest it is far too fast for planer feed rollers. (It would be excellent as a wooden board cannon though, shooting them across the workshop!)

Is there any way to slow this motor - using a potentiometer that only works for the lower end of the spectrum (if these exist??) or is my goose cooked on this project? There's not enough space in the cabinet of the machine for a countershaft.

Also, will the motor even have enough torque at this low a speed?

Is it time to fork out on a 3 phase motor and VFD? 

Inca don't exist anymore, so parts are hard to find and expensive if you can find them. 

Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Kevin


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## ErichKeane (Mar 31, 2020)

You have a couple of options:
1- Have the treadmill motor connect via reduction gearing 
2- use your own controller that can do a lower PWM signal.
3- Modify the current circuit board to do a lower speed.

For #3, can you take a picture of the board?  Those controllers often have a 'min' and 'max' setting via a POT.  If you can snap a picture of the circuit board, someone might be able to spot one.

The fear to using this motor is that it might just not have enough power at lower RPMs to work in the planer.  You might find adding some gearing/belt to be your best option for that.

Finally-- Any reason you couldn't just spend the ~$40 for a new Boston gear of the right size and use the factory setups?  Or do you like the idea of adjustability?


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## ErichKeane (Mar 31, 2020)

I just reread this:



KevinH said:


> I decided to bypass the gears and try run a treadmill motor directly to the pulley that drives both feed rollers. I got it installed and wired with the original treadmill circuit board (a PWM if I remember correctly?) and a potentiometer for speed control.



Just get different pulleys!  Put a smaller one on the motor, or a bigger one on the roller side (or both!).  You'll essentially be just changing gear ratios.


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

Bigger pulleys! 
I actually thought of that on day one but couldn't get the big fly wheel pulley off the motor spindle so put it out of my mind.

I'll double check when I'm back in the workshop later, space is tight but it might work. 

If there's an electronic fix to complement the bigger pulleys that could be handy. Here's a few photos of the board. It's in a temporary box. 

I'm not aware of Boston Gear... What is it exactly? Adjustability would be nice but in reality I think once I dial in the right feed rate I probably won't adjust it much. I'd prefer to have this working without adjustability than not working at all at this stage 

Thanks for the help Erich! Appreciate it.


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## brino (Apr 1, 2020)

Hi Kevin,

Welcome to the Hobby Machinist!

You have already been given some great feedback and ideas by @ErichKeane above.

I can offer one more option......3D-printed replacement plastic gears.
Many metal cutting lathes are using plastic gears in their feed systems.

You would have to know the specification details of the original gears; pitch (or modulus for metric), tooth count, bore size, thickness, pressure-angle, etc.

I could print the gear(s) you need and send them off to you.
No charge, if you promise to post an open and honest review right here of if and how well they work for you.
It would honestly cost me less than two dollars in material.

Alternately, if you have a place to print them yourself I could provide the .stl file that the printer needs as input (given all the specs above).

Any idea what material the original gears were?
I usually print in PLA plastic since it is so easy. Nylon would also be an option.
I have printed a little ABS, but I need to move the printer out to the shop for that because of the smell.

I will try to post back with some pictures of 3D-printer gears.

-brino


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

Thanks Brino!

That's a very generous offer. However I don't think it's the road I'd go down here. I'll take a photo of the original gears so show you, they're not just standard sprocket type gears. Also they are grouped together in a 'planetary' arrangement inside a bigger metal cog and some of the spindles on that are missing or worn down. 

It could be done but it's a pretty big job and I just don't have the time to rebuild it. 

I appreciate the offer though!


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## ErichKeane (Apr 1, 2020)

KevinH said:


> Bigger pulleys!
> I actually thought of that on day one but couldn't get the big fly wheel pulley off the motor spindle so put it out of my mind.
> 
> I'll double check when I'm back in the workshop later, space is tight but it might work.
> ...


Check out that 'speed' and 'amp' Pot (blue, adjusted by a screwdriver!) in the 2nd photo.  Those are likely some mild adjustments that will change the motor speeds.  

A bigger pulley on one side, or a smaller one on the motor, or BOTH can help!  

"Boston Gear" is a company that makes a ton of kinds of gears, but Brino's idea of 3d printing them (and you saying they are oddballs) is likely the best bet for replacement gears.


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## Dave Smith (Apr 1, 2020)

another route maybe an AC gearmotor high torque unit--under 10 rpm. there are some on eba for $30-$50


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

Dave Smith said:


> another route maybe an AC gearmotor high torque unit--under 10 rpm. there are some on eba for $30-$50


Thanks for the suggestion Dave. I had a look on eBay and they seem to be fairly small units. It does say high torque but they still look on the small side to me. It will have to push 2" thick hardwoods up to 10" wide into a cutterhead against it's will and I'm not sure they could handle it. I might be wrong though!


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Check out that 'speed' and 'amp' Pot (blue, adjusted by a screwdriver!) in the 2nd photo.  Those are likely some mild adjustments that will change the motor speeds.
> 
> A bigger pulley on one side, or a smaller one on the motor, or BOTH can help!
> 
> "Boston Gear" is a company that makes a ton of kinds of gears, but Brino's idea of 3d printing them (and you saying they are oddballs) is likely the best bet for replacement gears.


I will definitely try adjusting those Pots!


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## ErichKeane (Apr 1, 2020)

KevinH said:


> I will definitely try adjusting those Pots!


If that doesn't get what you want, shrinking the pulley on the motor/getting a bigger pulley for the roller side is, IMO, your best/cheapest bet.

I actually ended up doing a planer project not long ago!  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/woodmaster-718-planer-infeed-roller.81926/

My problem was more that the rubber rollers were getting dirty/slipping, so I replaced the infeed side with a knurled one.


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

Rather than photograph my broken ones, here's a couple of links to a website that sells a few (very expensive) spare parts 
This is the link to the actual gear:








						INCA 5.190.5400A Gear for feed drive , early machines model 510
					

Gear  for early planatary gear machines , complete with 2 bearings




					incamachines.com
				



And this is a link that shows the planetary gear configuration:








						INCA feed roller belt  58.46.1186 for 343.190 pack of 2
					

Feed roller belt for thicknesser jointer 343.190 (US 510 ) Photo is for reference which machine this belt is for.




					incamachines.com


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## ErichKeane (Apr 1, 2020)

KevinH said:


> Rather than photograph my broken ones, here's a couple of links to a website that sells a few (very expensive) spare parts
> This is the link to the actual gear:
> 
> 
> ...


Thats a pretty cool system!  Looks like those gears are odd only because they have 2 gears molded into 1.   You could buy two separate ones, put them on the same bushing, then pin them together (or 3d print as above).

That said, messing with your pulley diameter is likely the easiest method with the treadmill motor and lets you adjust speed electronically.

Can you snap a picture of your current setup?  I don't have a good idea of your size/space limitations.


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

This Is what I have at the moment. You can see the back of the main motor sticking through above the plate that the DC motor is mounted to.

I adjusted both those Pots and sure enough it has slowed the motor quite a bit. The only issue now is it seems to lack torque. I can just touch the side of the flywheel and it slows it down further...

Starting to loose faith in this. Might be the wrong application for this motor set up. I might see if I can use it for my wood lathe and look at getting a small 3 phase induction motor and VFD for the planer...


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> If that doesn't get what you want, shrinking the pulley on the motor/getting a bigger pulley for the roller side is, IMO, your best/cheapest bet.
> 
> I actually ended up doing a planer project not long ago!  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/woodmaster-718-planer-infeed-roller.81926/
> 
> My problem was more that the rubber rollers were getting dirty/slipping, so I replaced the infeed side with a knurled one.



Nice work! I appreciate a good knurl job given how messy my knurls usually end up 

Nice lathe too! I have a 9" SouthBend that is on my to do list to get up and running


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## ErichKeane (Apr 1, 2020)

KevinH said:


> This Is what I have at the moment. You can see the back of the main motor sticking through above the plate that the DC motor is mounted to.
> 
> I adjusted both those Pots and sure enough it has slowed the motor quite a bit. The only issue now is it seems to lack torque. I can just touch the side of the flywheel and it slows it down further...
> 
> Starting to loose faith in this. Might be the wrong application for this motor set up. I might see if I can use it for my wood lathe and look at getting a small 3 phase induction motor and VFD for the planer...


Yep, that'll happen.  Less power to the motor means less torque.  Swapping pulleys will increase the torque significantly which would fix this problem.  It looks like you have PLENTY of room to replace the upper pulley with a significantly bigger one.  If you double the size of the pulley, you will half the size and double the torque.


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

Grand. I'll give it one more go so 

I'll get as big a pulley as can fit and see if that does the trick 

Thanks again Erich


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## ErichKeane (Apr 1, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Yep, that'll happen.  Less power to the motor means less torque.  Swapping pulleys will increase the torque significantly which would fix this problem.  It looks like you have PLENTY of room to replace the upper pulley with a significantly bigger one.  If you double the size of the pulley, you will half the size and double the torque.


I mean "if you double the size of the pulley, you half the SPEED and double the torque".


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## mattthemuppet2 (Apr 1, 2020)

You really need a countershaft in there to step the speed down even further. Treadmill motors work well between 1000-4000rpm typically, so a 1" motor pulley (can't remember typical diameter - I think it's between 1 and 1 1/2") and 4" driven pulley will give you 250-1000rpm. Put in a jackshaft with another 1:4 ratio and you'll get down into the speed range you need (60-250rpm).

If that's not feasible you're better off with one of those gear motors, just make sure they're rated for continual use.


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

A jack shaft would be good but I've no idea where to get one and space is quite tight in there


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## ErichKeane (Apr 1, 2020)

KevinH said:


> A jack shaft would be good but I've no idea where to get one and space is quite tight in there


You could always just make a gearbox for the end of the motor


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

Make a gear box?? 

You say that like you're not even insane


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## ErichKeane (Apr 1, 2020)

KevinH said:


> Make a gear box??
> 
> You say that like you're not even insane



 Its actually not that bad, it is 2 gears, a shaft, and 2 plates to hold the shafts/gears.  (Obviously not a shiftable gearbox).  The only somewhat challenging part is finding a place on the motor or area around the infeed to mount it to.


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

I want to believe you - I really do


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## KevinH (Apr 1, 2020)

I'm in between 2 big jobs at the moment - I just finished a big commission and am about to start another. At times like this I look around the workshop and try to fix what needs fixing or tackle what's on the to-do list. 

I'm in the middle of taking apart a newly acquired 1960s (I think) Wadkin spindle moulder (shaper) to fix it up for the up-comming job. So I'm in machinery-mode instead of woodworking mode.

I've had a lot of false starts on this planer DC motor conversion, every time I hit a wall it goes on the long finger. Unfortunately if I have to start making jack shafts or gear boxes that will probably happen again as I can't wait too long between jobs. These materials aren't easy to find in Ireland and what is reasonably cheap in the US can become expensive after shipping and import duty to get it sent over here.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Apr 1, 2020)

Try making a super large (as large as will fit) pulley out of wood for the driven end. Like 8-10" at least. Should have enough grip at least to see if you're getting down into the right speed range. Most likely there'll be enough grip with that much wrap of a poly V belt.


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## FanMan (Apr 2, 2020)

A jack shaft for speed reduction can be very simple to make, here's one I did to slow down my bandsaw.  Steel round stock for the shaft, pulleys, two pillow block bearings, all from McMaster.  The only real machining work to make it was milling keyways for the pulleys.


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## KevinH (Apr 3, 2020)

It looks like this is going on the relatively long finger for the time being. I have been thinking about it though and I reckon I could squeeze a countershaft into the cabinet. 

I'll have to look into whether McMaster Carr deliver to Ireland and if it's not exorbitantly expensive, or try find somewhere closer


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## FanMan (Apr 3, 2020)

Just in case anybody's interested, this what I used, it gave  a 3.5:1 reduction, not counting the pulley sizes on the motor and saw itself :


2​5913K62​Low-Profile Mounted Sealed Steel Ball Bearing for 5/8" Shaft Diameter​$10.95​$21.90​1​5227T272​Tight-Tolerance 12L14 Carbon Steel Rod Ultra-Machinable, 5/8" Diameter, 1 ft. Length​$7.86​$7.86​1​98510A117​Undersized Steel Machine Key Stock Zinc-Plated, 3/16" x 3/16", 12" Long​$1.05​$1.05​1​6245K16​Pulley for 4L, A V-Belts, 2" OD, for 5/8" Shaft Diameter​$6.25​$6.25​1​6245K53​Pulley for 4L, A V-Belts, 7" OD, for 5/8" Shaft Diameter​$24.89​$24.89​​​​Merchandise Total​$61.95​

All pretty standard stuff, I would think there are industrial suppliers over there with similar stuff.


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## hman (Apr 5, 2020)

KevinH said:


> Bigger pulleys!
> I actually thought of that on day one but couldn't get the big fly wheel pulley off the motor spindle so put it out of my mind.


On the treadmill motors I've encountered, the pulley is LEFT-HAND threaded onto the motor shaft.  Of course, yours may be different ... but it might be worth a try.


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## AGCB97 (Apr 5, 2020)

Here's another simple and very cheap jack shaft I made for my wife's grain mill. Uses cheap flanged bearings and plywood for case and belt guard.


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## KevinH (Apr 5, 2020)

hman said:


> On the treadmill motors I've encountered, the pulley is LEFT-HAND threaded onto the motor shaft.  Of course, yours may be different ... but it might be worth a try.


Really? I didn't even think that it could have been threaded in place. I'll give it a try


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## KevinH (Apr 5, 2020)

AGCB97 said:


> Here's another simple and very cheap jack shaft I made for my wife's grain mill. Uses cheap flanged bearings and plywood for case and belt guard.
> View attachment 319607
> View attachment 319608


Very clever system. I've found a source for pulleys, shafts, etc in the UK but by the time I've added up all the parts it's not coming out much less than a new 3 phase motor and a VFD. But maybe I'm over-engineering it! I have some more thinking to do.


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## KevinH (Apr 5, 2020)

hman said:


> On the treadmill motors I've encountered, the pulley is LEFT-HAND threaded onto the motor shaft.  Of course, yours may be different ... but it might be worth a try.


OK - next stupid question: How do you remove a pulley that's threaded on? Do you have some way to lock the spindle?


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## ErichKeane (Apr 5, 2020)

KevinH said:


> OK - next stupid question: How do you remove a pulley that's threaded on? Do you have some way to lock the spindle?


Impact gun and pliers on the shaft.

Though, looking at that picture, it looks like it is keyed on the shaft?  Can you take a better picture of the end of the shaft?


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## KevinH (Apr 5, 2020)

The motor shaft is covered entirely by the pulley. Theres no obvious keyway but on closer inspection I do see the beginnings of threads on the motor shaft


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## ErichKeane (Apr 5, 2020)

KevinH said:


> The motor shaft is covered entirely by the pulley. Theres no obvious keyway but on closer inspection I do see the beginnings of threads on the motor shaft


Ah, guess I was imagining dirt as a keyway on the old shaft pic


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## KevinH (Apr 5, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Ah, guess I was imagining dirt as a keyway on the old shaft pic



DIRT?? On MY pulley?! How dare you Sir! I'll have you know I run a tight ship at Harrington Harps 

OK so, I've spent most of the day wondering in what sort of arrangment you can possibly use a pliers and an impact gun to remove a pulley like this 
Is an impact gun the same thing as an impact driver?


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## ErichKeane (Apr 5, 2020)

KevinH said:


> DIRT?? On MY pulley?! How dare you Sir! I'll have you know I run a tight ship at Harrington Harps
> 
> OK so, I've spent most of the day wondering in what sort of arrangment you can possibly use a pliers and an impact gun to remove a pulley like this
> Is an impact gun the same thing as an impact driver?


An impact driver (the drill-like thing) is a really low powered version of an impact gun, but it might work too.  The trick here is going to be to find some part of the shaft you can hold on to and let the impact driver/gun turn the pulley, otherwise it'll just spin.  I'm not sure I see any part of it that'll work there (assuming the big black disc spins as well!).

Is that indent in the shaft threaded?  If so, you might be able to hold the shaft from the front with a bolt?  At that point, you could clamp some vice grips on the big rotating masss, and smack them with a hammer(something heavy to give it a good impact)  and hope that breaks it free.


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## KevinH (Apr 5, 2020)

Unfortunately I don't think it's threaded. I'll double check when I'm back in tomorrow but I think it's just a shallow dimple sort of thing. There's no part of this shaft exposed at all to get a grip on


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## ErichKeane (Apr 5, 2020)

KevinH said:


> Unfortunately I don't think it's threaded. I'll double check when I'm back in tomorrow but I think it's just a shallow dimple sort of thing. There's no part of this shaft exposed at all to get a grip on


Yep, I figured that would be the case :/    I wonder if you could get the motor to break itself lose by running it in reverse with a pair of vice grips on the big round disk, and let it crash into a hard surface?   If you can get the motor to spin up quick enough to do so (high enough speed in 2/3 of a rotation) it might break it loose.


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## FanMan (Apr 5, 2020)

Mine  looked the same.  Probably no point taking it off, at least that's what I concluded... any V-belt will require a larger pulley than the poly-V belt used anyway.  What I did was to bore out a standard V-belt pulley to slip over the existing pulley, and locked it into place  with the new pulley's set screws (I filed a flat for the  set screw onto the old poly-v grooves).  Worked perfectly:









						Another Treadmill Conversion
					

There are a few "treadmill conversion" threads here with varying amounts of information, but I thought I'd summarize my own experiences here in one single thread as I progress.  As of this writing, it's still a work in progress:  I've wanted for awhile to convert my Jet 15 mill/drill to a...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## ErichKeane (Apr 5, 2020)

Ah!  The black disk is separate from the pulley!  KevinH: You can hold the black part and spin the pulley.


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## FanMan (Apr 5, 2020)

No, you misunderstand (if you're looking at my pictures).  The old poly-v pulley and flywheel are one, I bored out a _new_ pulley to slip over the existing poly-v pulley.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Apr 5, 2020)

Most of the cheaper motors are LH threaded. Hold the other end of the motor shaft in a bench vise, grab the flywheel in both hands and turn it clockwise. That motor looks like a nice one that I put on my lathe which is definitely 1/2-13 LH threaded. I built a 2 step polyV pulley for it and bought a tap for the internal threads. Also put a screw in the end of the shaft as extra insurance against the pulley threading off.





I've also done it as FanMan shows above, turning down the original polyV pulley part of the flywheel and slipping a regular V pulley over it. I've also made a top hat stub shaft to attach an original stepped V pulley to (for the mill) so I could use the original spindle pulley.

If you were to make a jackshaft, I'd suggest keeping the original flywheel/ pulley and match it to a treadmill roller shaft pulley. The output of the jackshaft can be whatever matches up to the pulley on your planer. Pretty sure I have one of those treadmill roller shaft pulleys around - you're welcome to it for the price of postage.


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## ErichKeane (Apr 5, 2020)

FanMan said:


> No, you misunderstand (if you're looking at my pictures).  The old poly-v pulley and flywheel are one, I bored out a _new_ pulley to slip over the existing poly-v pulley.


Ah, I did misunderstand.   False alarm OP :/  I thought those were the threads!

The KevinH actually needs a smaller pulley, so I don't think that would help in this case.


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## hman (Apr 5, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> Most of the cheaper motors are LH threaded. Hold the other end of the motor shaft in a bench vise, grab the flywheel in both hands and turn it clockwise.


Matt - I've not seen "the other end of the motor shaft" in any of Kevin's photos, but Kevin did say he couldn't get to the shaft.  So I'd surmise that the shaft does not stick out of the other end of the motor.  

Kevin - you MIGHT be able to take the far end bell off the motor.  But then again, if luck is not with you, the heads of the assembly screws will be on the end with the flywheel   If that's tha case, you might be able to drill a strategic hole or two thru the flywheel, and access the heads of the screws thru the hole.  Overall, you've got quite a sticky situation on your hands.  Good luck!


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## DanHarold (Apr 5, 2020)

The cast iron pulley/fan thread on my treadmill motor is left handed.
People have burned up these controllers.  Add a computer case fan to flow over it.
I would add a fan to the motor too if you remove the original one.
Its a great idea to have variable speed on the rollers.
As others have said gear it down.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Apr 5, 2020)

hman, you can take the end off. Takes a little bit of fiddling, but the cover (or fan, can't remember) is removeable. Once the fan is removed, there's plenty of motor shaft to grip. It's exactly how I got the flywheel off mine and my motor looks identical.


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## KevinH (Apr 6, 2020)

FanMan said:


> Mine  looked the same.  Probably no point taking it off, at least that's what I concluded... any V-belt will require a larger pulley than the poly-V belt used anyway.  What I did was to bore out a standard V-belt pulley to slip over the existing pulley, and locked it into place  with the new pulley's set screws (I filed a flat for the  set screw onto the old poly-v grooves).  Worked perfectly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was thinking of doing precisely this. The diameter comes in at an awkward 32.4mm and was wondering if I could 'convince' a 32mm taper lock bush to fit over it...


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## KevinH (Apr 6, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> Most of the cheaper motors are LH threaded. Hold the other end of the motor shaft in a bench vise, grab the flywheel in both hands and turn it clockwise. That motor looks like a nice one that I put on my lathe which is definitely 1/2-13 LH threaded. I built a 2 step polyV pulley for it and bought a tap for the internal threads. Also put a screw in the end of the shaft as extra insurance against the pulley threading off.
> View attachment 319748
> 
> View attachment 319749
> ...


Actually, yes, this makes much more sense. No point in going to great lengths to remove a perfectly good pulley if I'm feeding into a countershaft.


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