# Bummed Out Newb On My First Mill Purchase Gone Bad



## rdrasher

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and new to machining (as in NEVER even turned on a mill). I've spent a week or more lurking around trying to get a feel for the forum and learn a few things.

Backstory:
I recently decided that I needed a quality drill press for my backyard shop where I work on motorcycles, atv's, and so forth. So I figured if I'm going to spend a good amount of money on a DP, I might as well get a mill and expand the possibilities. I found that a full size knee mill seems to be the way to go if the money and space allows.

So a couple of days before Christmas I came across a Craigslist ad about an hour away from my home for a Bridgeport J head @ $700.00 That seemed like a pretty cheap price for a refurbished Bridgeport and wasted no time to contact the seller and hustled over there to check it out. After looking it over to the best of my ability, I felt it was worth the money asked and paid for the mill and got a receipt. We agreed that I would arrange to pick it up after the holidays from his business.

Unfortunately after several attempts since to contact the seller (he leaves me hanging for days at a time) and pick up the mill (no show on agreed day and time), I've given up and asked for a refund and he agreed.

Currently:
So, I don't think I'm going to find a full size mill in my price range of $1,000 in my area (central FL). Should I start looking at a mini mill or something?

I found this one and was wondering if it's worth the asking price?

https://jacksonville.craigslist.org/tls/5940457327.html

Or should I go with HF and 20% coupon?

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-horsepower-heavy-duty-milling-drilling-machine-33686.html




Thanks in advance,

Gary


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## Wreck™Wreck

I owned a J head BP which I bought in 1992 and scrapped in 2014, it was old when I bought it.

It was so clapped out that I would not sell it even though there were offers, I did not feel comfortable selling such a machine to a hobby user even though it would work fine for such a purpose.


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## rdean

I tried to contract that same add last week and he did not reply to me either.  
There are several adds for mills but I have found most are sold but the person did not remove the add.


I would choose the HF mill as it looks like a RF30 size which is larger then the RF20.
You can add an X axis power feed later if you find you want that.

Good luck
Ray


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## Wreck™Wreck

What is an RF30 ?


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## rdrasher

Wreck™Wreck said:


> What is an RF30 ?



Rong Fu 30 mill?


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## 4GSR

Grizzly may offer you the same mini mill for the same price but a better shipping price.  They may have a package deal with vise, and basic tooling for the price of the HF mill, too.  Shop around.  Don't forget about Precision Mathew machines.


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## Ed ke6bnl

I had a Burke Millrite mill wanted larger J head, but could not find a deal,  so went and finally added a DRO and as soon as I finish a J head with a round ram came up for $500+$100 to deliver. Bought it and sold th Burke (kinda Bridgeport 3/4 size) for$1400 in a couple of days, supper mill for smaller foot print.  I did an XYZ DRO right away and an X axis power feed and love rigidity.  Be patient and wait,  learn how to use and a good deal will show up. Then place a want add in the paper. I got my Burke and Rockwell lathe from the want add for $900.

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk


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## rdrasher

4gsr said:


> Grizzly may offer you the same mini mill for the same price but a better shipping price.  They may have a package deal with vise, and basic tooling for the price of the HF mill, too.  Shop around.  Don't forget about Precision Mathew machines.


Thanks 4gsr! I'm in the process of looking through the mini mill area for more options like the grizzly go704 and the pm-25. Getting ready to look at the little machine shop site now.


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## JayMcClellan

rdrasher said:


> Thanks 4gsr! I'm in the process of looking through the mini mill area for more options like the grizzly go704 and the pm-25. Getting ready to look at the little machine shop site now.


I was in the same boat a month ago, and ended up choosing the pm-25 over the g0704 or LMS. After reading about the noisy plastic gears on the Grizzly and the popular belt drive conversion for it, the math was simple. The PM-25 already has belt drive and its delivered price was about the same as the Griz plus a belt drive kit, and PM has a 5 year warranty so I felt it was a better deal just based on that. The much better reputation of PM sealed it for me. The LMS mills looked decent but a step down, plus I plan to do a CNC conversion and the G0704/PM-25 models seem more popular in that regard.


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## rdrasher

JayMcClellan said:


> I was in the same boat a month ago, and ended up choosing the pm-25 over the g0704 or LMS. After reading about the noisy plastic gears on the Grizzly and the popular belt drive conversion for it, the math was simple. The PM-25 already has belt drive and its delivered price was about the same as the Griz plus a belt drive kit, and PM has a 5 year warranty so I felt it was a better deal just based on that. The much better reputation of PM sealed it for me. The LMS mills looked decent but a step down, plus I plan to do a CNC conversion and the G0704/PM-25 models seem more popular in that regard.


Thanks Jay

These are the two that I've pretty much narrowed it down to.

I think....... lol


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## Whyemier

I have the RF 30 Mill/Drill and am happy with it.  Just have to realize it doesn't have the versatility of a Knee Mill.  The first one has a table feed so that's something to consider.  That could add as much as $300 to the cost of the new RF 30 from HF.  You should also consider repeat-ability when you raise or lower the head.  You may find yourself having to dial in again if your work is critical, that applies to either machine. 

All that taken into consideration, as I said I'm happy with the mill.  It fits my small shop/shed and does what I want.


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## Charles Spencer

rdrasher said:


> Unfortunately after several attempts since to contact the seller (he leaves me hanging for days at a time) and pick up the mill (no show on agreed day and time), I've given up and asked for a refund and he agreed.



Did you get the money back yet?


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## rdrasher

Charles Spencer said:


> Did you get the money back yet?


No. Not yet.
He claimed to be out of town on a job Friday (the day I was supposed to get the mill). Then he asked for my name and bank to transfer the money back to me. On Saturday he said the transfer was completed and asked for my email to send me a transfer confirmation and receipt. Now it's Sunday night and nothing has shown up in my account.  NOT SURPRISED!!!!!

I have a feeling he probably spent the money and now is scrambling because i want my money back. I'm not sure if things are delayed because of the weekend and will give him till tomorrow. Then I guess I'll have to call the authorities or something.

Of course my son checks the mugshot websites after I bought the mill and finds this guy with a record........ grand theft, felony battery, robbery

Just my luck!

Now I see he's got the mill up on for sale @$1150 that's $450 more than I paid for it! What a scammer......


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## 4GSR

I don't pay any individual money for a major purchase unless I'm picking it up right there on the spot in person. Period!  Better make sure he's not draining your bank account of more money!   Get the local authorities involved, too. Especially since you son said he has a record!


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## rdrasher

4gsr said:


> I don't pay any individual money for a major purchase unless I'm picking it up right there on the spot in person. Period!  Better make sure he's not draining your bank account of more money!   Get the local authorities involved, too. Especially since you son said he has a record!


Normally I wouldn't. But it's 2200 lbs and I wasn't ready to transport it at 8pm that night and didn't want to lose the mill to another buyer.


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## markba633csi

Looks like time for small claims court-  Sorry to hear that, I bought a small horizontal mill under the same circumstances, had to pick it up 3 full weeks later, worked out fine. 
Mark S.


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## Charles Spencer

If you've got a bill of sale I'd consult a lawyer.  Provided you didn't sign away your rights you may be able to show up with a sheriff's deputy and claim the mill.  I'm not a lawyer and I certainly don't know Florida law but I'm pretty sure such a thing would be possible in my state.


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## Paul in OKC

You would be fine with either of the two mills you have linked. I had one of the HF model for a few years and did more than I thought I would be able to on it. You just have to learn its limitations and work within them.


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## Reeltor

Everyone has an opinion on how you should handle this but if it was me and if you have your signed receipt, I'd go to the sheriff's office and ask if a deputy could accompany you to pick up the mill.  Before  you do that maybe call the sheriff's office and see if they will drive to the place of business just to let them know that you aren't going to let this go.

Now that the seller has your routing and bank account number; I'd be concerned that he might try to loot your bank account.  At the least I call the manager at your bank to see how to protect your account(s).


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## rdrasher

Reeltor said:


> Everyone has an opinion on how you should handle this but if it was me and if you have your signed receipt, I'd go to the sheriff's office and ask if a deputy could accompany you to pick up the mill.  Before  you do that maybe call the sheriff's office and see if they will drive to the place of business just to let them know that you aren't going to let this go.
> 
> Now that the seller has your routing and bank account number; I'd be concerned that he might try to loot your bank account.  At the least I call the manager at your bank to see how to protect your account(s).


Yeah I called the bank 3 days ago and they said "we don't process transactions over the weekend". So I have to wait until Monday or Tuesday to see if my refund shows up. So if it doesn't appear in my acct. tomorrow then I'll be going to the police department and let them know whats going on. Such a hassle.........


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## rdrasher

Charles Spencer said:


> If you've got a bill of sale I'd consult a lawyer.  Provided you didn't sign away your rights you may be able to show up with a sheriff's deputy and claim the mill.  I'm not a lawyer and I certainly don't know Florida law but I'm pretty sure such a thing would be possible in my state.


If the money doesn't show tomorrow, then it's off to the police dept. to see what I can do.


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## Reeltor

Please go into your bank and talk with someone about this crook having your account and routing number.  With these numbers he can electronically draft all of the money out of your bank account.  There are many scammers out there that phish for these numbers, it got so bad in the real estate industry that companies had to setup special one way accounts.


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## rdrasher

Reeltor said:


> Please go into your bank and talk with someone about this crook having your account and routing number.  With these numbers he can electronically draft all of the money out of your bank account.  There are many scammers out there that phish for these numbers, it got so bad in the real estate industry that companies had to setup special one way accounts.


I just finished talking to my bank. As expected, no money sent. Now I'm going to head over to the police dept. and talk to them and see what I can do.


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## NCjeeper

Reeltor said:


> Everyone has an opinion on how you should handle this but if it was me and if you have your signed receipt, I'd go to the sheriff's office and ask if a deputy could accompany you to pick up the mill.  Before  you do that maybe call the sheriff's office and see if they will drive to the place of business just to let them know that you aren't going to let this go.


Its still a civil matter at this point and I doubt you will get law enforcement to go. I know we don't with our department.


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## kwoodhands

rdrasher said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm new to the forum and new to machining (as in NEVER even turned on a mill). I've spent a week or more lurking around trying to get a feel for the forum and learn a few things.
> 
> Backstory:
> I recently decided that I needed a quality drill press for my backyard shop where I work on motorcycles, atv's, and so forth. So I figured if I'm going to spend a good amount of money on a DP, I might as well get a mill and expand the possibilities. I found that a full size knee mill seems to be the way to go if the money and space allows.
> 
> So a couple of days before Christmas I came across a Craigslist ad about an hour away from my home for a Bridgeport J head @ $700.00 That seemed like a pretty cheap price for a refurbished Bridgeport and wasted no time to contact the seller and hustled over there to check it out. After looking it over to the best of my ability, I felt it was worth the money asked and paid for the mill and got a receipt. We agreed that I would arrange to pick it up after the holidays from his business.
> 
> Unfortunately after several attempts since to contact the seller (he leaves me hanging for days at a time) and pick up the mill (no show on agreed day and time), I've given up and asked for a refund and he agreed.
> 
> Currently:
> So, I don't think I'm going to find a full size mill in my price range of $1,000 in my area (central FL). Should I start looking at a mini mill or something?
> 
> I found this one and was wondering if it's worth the asking price?
> 
> https://jacksonville.craigslist.org/tls/5940457327.html
> 
> Or should I go with HF and 20% coupon?
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-horsepower-heavy-duty-milling-drilling-machine-33686.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Gary



Gary, I would not bother with a mini-mill. If you can swing it a large mill-drill sounds like it would fit the bill.
I have a G0760 Grizzly mill for 2 years now and could not be happier with it. I use it mostly as a milling machine because I have 2 drill presses also. This mill is about 820 lbs. When I got it , this mill listed at $1650.00, I believe it is about $75.00 more now. Also this mill has no gears, belt driven instead. I actually prefer a belt driven machine even though changing speeds is a PITA. Quieter, no gears to break, and probably less cost. I rarely change speeds anyhow.
I sold a min-mill and then received this mill as a gift.
This is a round column mill, some people do not want this type of column. When raising or lowering the head it may move slightly. No problem for me, I just re-center the XY table to center after locking the head. Usually a 20 second job.
There are other mills that may do the job but probably more than $1000.00 .
I think new may be a better option for you since you are inexperienced with milling.


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## rdrasher

NCjeeper said:


> Its still a civil matter at this point and I doubt you will get law enforcement to go. I know we don't with our department.


I called the police dept. and was told I could file for a Writ of Replevin with the courthouse. Once I get that, I could call the police to escort me to his business and retrieve the mill and he would not be allowed to stop me. They also told me that if I could get him to agree to hand over my refund in person, I could call them and they would show up and make sure it a smooth transaction. Since he currently has "my property" for sale on Craigslist, I was told if he sells it before I can collect the mill or get my refund, I could take him to civil court. At this point I'm so over this guy and his stall tactics that I just want my money back and move on with my life.........


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## rdrasher

Well I think I've made some progress with this guy tonight. After avoiding my attempts to contact him this weekend and this morning, I decided tonight to call him out on a local swip-swap Facebook page about how he owes me a refund for the mill and how he is trying to sell something he doesn't even own. Hallelujah! I received a response to my posting via phone text almost immediately. He was ****** and tried to explain how he transferred the money and I'm causing him problems with customers on the page, blah, blah, blah but did agree to meet with me on Saturday to give me a cash refund. So hopefully when I show up to his shop with an officer on Saturday at 5pm everything will finally be sorted out.

Fingers crossed.......


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## ozzie46

This could get dangerous!! Don't go alone and definitely not at night. Have read to many stories about how things like this have gone deadly.  Be safe.

Ron


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## kyler

this is better than Peyton Place reruns!


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## NCjeeper

rdrasher said:


> He was ****** and tried to explain how he transferred the money and I'm causing him problems with customers on the page, blah, blah, blah but did agree to meet with me on Saturday to give me a cash refund.


So it sounds obvious that he didn't wire the money and he lied about that. Good luck.


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## rdrasher

ozzie46 said:


> This could get dangerous!! Don't go alone and definitely not at night. Have read to many stories about how things like this have gone deadly.  Be safe.
> 
> Ron


I'll be bringing the cops with me for a trouble free refund.


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## rdrasher

kyler said:


> this is better than Peyton Place reruns!


I know right!


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## rdrasher

NCjeeper said:


> So it sounds obvious that he didn't wire the money and he lied about that. Good luck.


Seems that way.


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## NCjeeper

I hope you get your money back and he has an outstanding warrant and gets arrested too boot.


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## rdrasher

Does anyone think this Enco 3-in-1 would be a good option to start/learn on? 
Is he asking too much?

https://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/tls/5945002317.html


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## Doubleeboy

3 in 1 machines do a little of everything but nothing particularly well, they are not rigid, have small milling table, very tall tailstock, which is a no no.  Can you do good work on them ?  Sure, will you love the machine, I suspect you will find its limitations sooner rather than later.  That said, if I were to buy one, I would buy a Smithy, they are nice machines, have good support and have been around a long time

michael


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## Eddyde

If you want to do small work the 3 in 1 machine might suffice but if you want to work on bikes and ATVs, you should get a larger, separate mill and lathe.

I would take the mill that you already bought instead of the refund. show up with the cops, a trailer and a couple of friends.

Also I would advise to change your bank account number now that a slimy criminal has it.


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## rdrasher

Thanks guys for the input about the 3-in-1.

It's pretty overwhelming for me to commit with all the different options for machines and the fact that I've never even used any of them. 
I see all the possibilities on this site and get all hyped up only to get nervous about spending my limited budget on "the wrong thing" or buy someone else's used worn out machine.

Oh the problems of a lowly noob...


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## 4GSR

rdrasher said:


> ............Oh the problems of a lowly noob...


It'll get better.  Most of us have had similar dealings in our past, too.  You live and learn and we never quit learning.


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## Chayse

rdrasher,

 Did you ever get the situation sorted? I looked at the same mill and tried to contact, after numerous failed attempts, i gave up. Hopefully you got your money back or the mill!

V/r,

Chayse


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## rdrasher

Chayse said:


> rdrasher,
> 
> Did you ever get the situation sorted? I looked at the same mill and tried to contact, after numerous failed attempts, i gave up. Hopefully you got your money back or the mill!
> 
> V/r,
> 
> Chayse


I drove to Daytona to get my money and guess what happened, NOTHING! He was a "no show" again! He texted me before we were to meet and said he wouldn't be able to meet on time. Then said he would wire my money to me. After a couple hours, he sent me a text saying he could only send $200 and then would send $300 tomorrow and then $200 on Monday. What's another couple of days after almost a month now.

The mill will need some work and it's missing several pieces:

quill feed handle(missing)
manual feed wheel(missing)
manual feed splined shaft that the wheel attaches to didn't look like it was spinning properly, looked bent as it went around and around
pulley belt is starting to shred/fray
rear spindle is chipped and missing a large chunk of metal on largest pulley
x axis wheel is not easily spun(table doesn't move smoothly)
didn't see anywhere on the machine that says it's Bridgeport
some of the numbered degree plates have been sanded off
power switch arcs electricity out of open cover when it's turned on
a wire connected the motor has not been properly shielded

I understand these might be "no big deal" to most but I felt I should mention it to you since you mentioned that you were trying to check out the mill.


Chayse, Good luck with this guy, he's sketchy with a recent record in Flagler county


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## Chayse

Thanks for the heads up...after a couple attempts, I gave up on it. I ended up finding a mill over in Lakeland that will suit my needs. I hope you get things sorted!!


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## BGHansen

rdrasher said:


> I drove to Daytona to get my money and guess what happened, NOTHING! He was a "no show" again! He texted me before we were to meet and said he wouldn't be able to meet on time. Then said he would wire my money to me. After a couple hours, he sent me a text saying he could only send $200 and then would send $300 tomorrow and then $200 on Monday. What's another couple of days after almost a month now.
> 
> The mill will need some work and it's missing several pieces:
> 
> quill feed handle(missing)
> manual feed wheel(missing)
> manual feed splined shaft that the wheel attaches to didn't look like it was spinning properly, looked bent as it went around and around
> pulley belt is starting to shred/fray
> rear spindle is chipped and missing a large chunk of metal on largest pulley
> x axis wheel is not easily spun(table doesn't move smoothly)
> didn't see anywhere on the machine that says it's Bridgeport
> some of the numbered degree plates have been sanded off
> power switch arcs electricity out of open cover when it's turned on
> a wire connected the motor has not been properly shielded
> 
> I understand these might be "no big deal" to most but I felt I should mention it to you since you mentioned that you were trying to check out the mill.
> 
> 
> Chayse, Good luck with this guy, he's sketchy with a recent record in Flagler county


Unfortunately for us we had a similar dealing with a gentleman.  You're likely involved in a case of fraud, but you will be hard pressed to convince your local prosecutor to pursue the case (from our experience).  

The detective in our case educated me a bit on the process; there is criminal court and civil court.  Criminal involves the prosecutor, civil does not.  I was told that from the evidence that we presented, there was no doubt it was a case of criminal fraud.  However, to prove criminal fraud in court you need to prove prior intent to defraud.  That means having a co-conspirator "ratting out" the other conspirator.  The prosecutor would not "waste his time" presenting the case in court and risk having a "bleeding heart" judge or jury rule in favor of the defendant.  In other words, they would only prosecute if the case was a slam-dunk conviction.

We pursued our matter in civil court and received a judgement in our favor.  However, that doesn't get you your money back.  It's basically mom in the front seat of the car settling the argument between the kids in the back seat as to whose comic book it is.  Telling little Johnnie to give Suzy her comic book back doesn't mean he will do it.  No prosecutor there, just attorneys for both sides.  Small claims court (which was our case) does not involve attorneys.  In our area it costs around $3000 for an attorney for civil court.  We have two judges in our county and neither one typically awards court costs to the complainant.  So you're on your own to cover the legal fees.  Our max limit for small claims civil court is something like $3500.

You unfortunately will have to be persistent to get your money back even if you receive a judgement.  I attached a brochure on the process in our county.  It might be a similar process in yours.  

In our case we got most of our money back, enough so that we gave up pursuing the balance.  Plus the gentleman moved out of state which is a new can of worms.  I followed him to find his place of work (which he wouldn't disclose even those he was required by the judgement in our favor) and filed papers for garnishment of wages.  I probably went over the line a bit, but made up flyers with the details of our dealings with this gentleman and went door to door in his neighborhood handing them out.  All I stated were the facts, didn't call him names like a thief or anything, just stated the facts.  I figured a con artist relies of the public not knowing his background otherwise he won't find more victims.  Our attorney rolled his eyes at my tactics, but in my case said I was not defaming his character.  It made a difference in our case, he started returning our calls about paying us back - maybe something about shame being a great motivator.

Good luck, sure hope you get your money back as the legal process is a royal PITA!

Bruce


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## Whyemier

If a Civil Court rules in your favor I believe you may be able to put a lein for the original amount and costs accrued for your trouble on properties owned by the defaulter.  Laws may vary where you are.


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## Hukshawn

Find out where this guy lives and camp outside his house till he pays up. Or enlist the help of a few heavy bikers in the area....


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## Glenn Brooks

Personally, I would do all three things: 

1) post an update concerning his continuing fraudulent and evasive activities on Facebook to expose this guy and kill his business; 

2) take the cops to his business with the court order and pick up the mill;

 3) if he dodges you, serve him with small claims papers anyway -even if he gives you a partial refund- while you are at his house/shop.  

Even if he evades paying the court claim, you can still continue to serve him with demand notices, and go back to the Judge to complain about him NOT satisfying the judgement.  Remember, Small claims an't over til it's over. 

Judges may be flakes, but they get real nasty when people don't do what they are ordered to do, after the trial is finished.

Good luck on this. Don't give up!

Glenn


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## seanb

I would keep messing with him on CL and whatever else hes trying to sell stuff on. Whats he gonna do about it?


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## Hukshawn

So what happened here? I've been curious.


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## rdrasher

Hukshawn said:


> So what happened here? I've been curious.


Not much......

Surprisingly he did Moneygram me a refund a week or two ago, unfortunately he only send $200 (citing an ATM max withdrawal per day) of what I thought would be the full $700.
I went to the police dept. but they won't do anything. According to them I entered a verbal agreement when I handed over my money for the mill. They say it's now a civil matter and it would probably cost me as much to take him to court as what I'm owed, plus it could take up to a year to sue him. I feel like the "system" protects the perpetrator and leaves the victim hung out to dry.

As of last week I was told by this thief that he sent me a money order for the remaining $500 he owes and promised to give me a tracking number, but as you can guess....... no money order or tracking number has shown up, but I've received PLENTY of excuses.


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## Hukshawn

Do you not know where he lives?


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## rdrasher

Hukshawn said:


> Do you not know where he lives?


I think he, his wife and kid live in his business. Not sure, but it did look like it because there was a folding bed upstairs and a fridge and clothes in the office. I talked to a guy that has a unit next door and he told me that this guy made Thanksgiving dinner at his business with his family.


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## rdrasher

Even if I do get to meet up with him face to face to demand my money, he won't have it and will call the cops.
I live over an hour away, so my brother went over there a couple of times in the last month to try and tell him to contact me and this clown called the cops on my brother. Last week after going by the police dept. I went by the business looking for him and as I was talking to the guy in the next unit over, he saw me on his camera that he has in the front window (which I already knew about) and called the cops to tell them I was trying to break in! What a @#%&! This clown uses and abuses the system since he's all too familiar with it after being arrested multiple times.


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## rdean

Sorry to hear that.
I was hoping you would at least get your money back.

Ray


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## ezduzit

"... it would probably cost me as much to take him to court as what I'm owed..."

This simply isn't true. You can file a small claim, online, and take him to court without an attorney.  But, still, you have taught yourself an expensive lesson.


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## Hukshawn

This guy is a pro... a professional con man. Has no assets to sue for, cameras everywhere, knows he can call the cops over harassment... scum bag...


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## Eddyde

I second ezduzit, You can and should, sue him in small claims court.


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## rdrasher

I just got off the phone with a lawyer and he told me to see the state attorney and ask to file for a misdemeanor or 3rd degree felony. He called it "theft by deception". Then he told me to walk across the court complex to the county clerk and file in small claims court and after I eventually win a judgement, put a lien on him. 

I think I'll let the "thief" know that I've had enough of his BS and will be taking it to the next level.


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## ezduzit

"I think I'll let the "thief" know that I've had enough of his BS and will be taking it to the next level."

Your attorney cannot have told you to do this. He gave you good advice--stick to that.


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## British Steel

Yep, forget about telling him, he sounds like he'd counterclaim "harassment", just let the papers arrive on his desk - if he has a "business" then he may well have business assets, don't know how it goes in the US but in the UK court bailiffs will seize goods far in excess of the debt and auction them to be sure both the debt and fees are paid, anything left over goes to the debtor (not much, the auctioneers are interested in selling, not getting  best price in bailiff auctions)- couldn't happen to a nicer bloke. Never know, if they seize and auction the mill you might get it for $10 at auction AND get your money back

Dave H. (the other one)


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## NCjeeper

I would also contact zoning/code enforcement. He should be in violation by living in his business since it is not zoned for that.


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## BGHansen

Small claims court in our area is around $25 for up to $1000 claims, $40 for up to $2500 and $65 for up to $3500.  We've used it a number of times, pretty painless process.  You file the paperwork at the courthouse and have him served the notice of the court date.  You can use a private server (any adult other than you as the complainant) or the court server.  We used the court server which cost about $25.  You go to court and meet with a magistrate or judge and present your case.  If the defendant doesn't show, slam dunk in your favor.  Regardless, you get a decision and the judge asks them for their payment plan.  If they don't pay at that point you have to file another court paper (think it's called a Writ) to have them reappear.  You can also file paperwork for garnishment of wages and seizure of property.  In our case the defendant had to give at the time of judgement his bank account numbers (yet another filed paper to seize funds), place of work (for garnishment of wages), and social security number (for seizure of tax returns).  Yet another piece of filed paperwork to seize assets.  Sorry that you're having to learn the process.  That's how it worked in our area 7 or 8 years ago, may be different in yours.

Bruce


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## kvt

I would wait until after he is served then contact the zoning,   or have a friend contact them that way it is not you directly harassing him


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## rdrasher

Thanks everyone for all the info and support! 

I'll be heading over to the court house tomorrow so I can start to put an end to this nightmare.


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## jeepguy88

What's the latest update?


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## rdrasher

Sorry guys for the lack of updates.

I tried to give him one last chance to give me my money and he claimed to have mailed me a money order (for the second or third different time) and of course nothing showed up. I even told him (for the second time) that I would meet him at a police station to exchange the money in the lobby with cops all around so everything would go smoothly, but he still wouldn't. So at the beginning of the month I filed a small claims suit against him and he was served this past week. Now I'm just waiting for my day in court next month.


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## jmarkwolf

I'll bet he doesn't show, you win the case by default, and then you have to start collections process, which will be like more of what you've been doing so far.

Been there. Hope it works out for you.


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## rdrasher

jmarkwolf said:


> I'll bet he doesn't show, you win the case by default, and then you have to start collections process, which will be like more of what you've been doing so far.
> 
> Been there. Hope it works out for you.


Thanks!
He probably won't.
It should be open and shut case. 
I made sure to keep all our conversations via text and email, so as to have a "paper trail" where he admits multiple times that he owes the money to me and where he set up multiple times and places to meet and never followed through, etc. etc.


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## Cadillac STS

Could you ask the the value of the mill he kept which is your property and not just the $700?  Bring in some other ads showing the price of similar condition J head Bridgeports to show the court.  Because with the money transfer and the receipt the property is yours and the value is also yours even (And especially) if it is more than you paid.


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## Finster

So I was just reading through this thread for the first time. It's like someone ripped the last page out of a book. What happened?


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## rdrasher

Finster said:


> So I was just reading through this thread for the first time. It's like someone ripped the last page out of a book. What happened?


Sorry guys,

There hasn't been much to report lately. I've been waiting about a month for my first court date which is this Friday. So, I should have an update after that!


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## Cadillac STS

Courts love to see paperwork as evidence to support claims over someone just saying something to make a point.  

Consider spending time today and tomorrow browsing craigslist and eBay and printing out comparable used mills with asking prices and current dates.  Have 5 or 6 to hand over for the court official to see with you losing your property and asking for financial recovery. Lets them see what you are really talking about as well so they don't have to imagine what the situation was. 

May not help but would be very handy to have that right there to show the point.


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## kvt

Yea,   the courts are like other Gov things the more paperwork you can provide the better. 
Good luck and if he does not show,  all that will just help all the much more.


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## rdrasher

I got my receipts and printed up all the text convo between us and made a bullet point sheet of info for myself, etc.

We'll see how it goes tomorrow!


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## umahunter

Good luck man what a friggin nightmare


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## rdrasher

umahunter said:


> Good luck man what a friggin nightmare


Believe me it has been....... 
What also makes me mad is that not only did he rip me off, then he has the nerve to go on FB and cry poor mouth and beg for household stuff from people in the local community, and people flood him with free stuff! 

He is an expert at playing on peoples emotions, etc. 
I was going to blast him on FB but he blocked me before I could.


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## Finster

He's not going to show up for court.


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## umahunter

We got people  that do that on Facebook  here they go on asking for free stuff with thier hardluck story people  give em good stuff then they turn around and try and  sell it


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## Finster

So did the guy show up for court?


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## vtcnc

: toe tapping : waiting :


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## rdrasher

Surprise! Surprise! the guy actually showed up today for court( in his finest dirty t-shirt, shorts and sneakers )! 

The court asked us to talk to a mediator in a side room before going infront of the judge. We sat down and the mediator explained his role and asked if we were willing to work things out. We both agreed and I briefly explained my side of things and how it all went down. When the mediator asked the guy that ripped me off what he had to say, he said "I'll make it easy, I owe him the money". I was a bit taken back and surprised by his candid straight to the point response. So we agreed that he would pay me the $500 he owes plus the $135 in fees that I paid the courts. He said he needed 2 weeks to get the money and I agreed. So, hopefully he pays up within the next 2 weeks. Otherwise, I just need to let the court know and they will award an instant judgement in my favor against him.

Hopefully he comes through, but not holding my breath..........


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## Finster

I can't believe he showed. I doubt you will see the money in two weeks but you never know.


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## Finster

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but I was thinking about this. Obviously, this guy isn't very bright, he's just an average con man/ thief. I'm wondering if he thought that by not showing for the hearing, a warrant would be issued? Maybe he didn't know that is not done with civil suits? To me it doesn't make any sense that this guy would show up, agree and still have no money??? It's not like he didn't have weeks to come up with some cash. Something here smells. All in all, I hope I'm wrong and you get your money back.


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## 4GSR

Wonder how many others he will bum money off of just to get you paid back?


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## rdrasher

Finster said:


> I'm not trying to rain on your parade but I was thinking about this. Obviously, this guy isn't very bright, he's just an average con man/ thief. I'm wondering if he thought that by not showing for the hearing, a warrant would be issued? Maybe he didn't know that is not done with civil suits? To me it doesn't make any sense that this guy would show up, agree and still have no money??? It's not like he didn't have weeks to come up with some cash. Something here smells. All in all, I hope I'm wrong and you get your money back.



I hear ya. I think he "wants" to do the right thing, but ultimately still makes the "wrong" decision. I know he's on probation already and maybe that worried him. I told him before I would go to the state attorney to pursue possible criminal charges. Even if I could get a low level misdemeanor brought against him, that would put him straight back in jail.

Again, not holding my breath, but you never know.


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## Finster

rdrasher said:


> I hear ya. I think he "wants" to do the right thing, but ultimately still makes the "wrong" decision. I know he's on probation already and maybe that worried him. I told him before I would go to the state attorney to pursue possible criminal charges. Even if I could get a low level misdemeanor brought against him, that would put him straight back in jail.
> 
> Again, not holding my breath, but you never know.


Yea, depending on state law, it could be considered larceny or theft by deception. Although with the money involved, it would probably be petty larceny. The DA would probably consider it a waste of time for them but you never know.


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## rdrasher

Finster said:


> Yea, depending on state law, it could be considered larceny or theft by deception. Although with the money involved, it would probably be petty larceny. The DA would probably consider it a waste of time for them but you never know.


Yeah probably. But I'm sure he wouldn't like the thought of possibly going to jail, especially since he's got a kid due in a month.....


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## Finster

Another thing I don't understand is why he just didn't agree to take you over and give you the mill just to end it. He would not have to pay you back and you would have had the mill. This guy must be a true jerk.


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## Cadillac STS

The thing about probation officers is they really are happy to hear ANY information about someone on probation doing something wrong.  It is TOTALLY up to the probation officer to call a violation on him.  No need to have any official charges at all.  In fact even if you do get the money you could drop a dime on him to the probation department and they would take him to task too, very likely pull probation.


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## rdrasher

Finster said:


> Another thing I don't understand is why he just didn't agree to take you over and give you the mill just to end it. He would not have to pay you back and you would have had the mill. This guy must be a true jerk.


yeah I know right...... I know he never took down the CL ad until way after he gave me a partial refund. I bet he thought he could sell it for more money and keep the difference after paying me back. He had it up on CL for $1150 then Christmas came and he lowered it to $700(needed money for holidays). Then he put it back up to $1150 after.
I asked him at mediation if he still had the mill and he said he lost it to a storage place.


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## rdrasher

Cadillac STS said:


> The thing about probation officers is they really are happy to hear ANY information about someone on probation doing something wrong.  It is TOTALLY up to the probation officer to call a violation on him.  No need to have any official charges at all.  In fact even if you do get the money you could drop a dime on him to the probation department and they would take him to task too, very likely pull probation.


I contacted his P.O. before going to the courts, but she kind of blew me off. She said she had a "client" infront of her and told me to call back the next day. I tried  the next day and they said she left for the day, the I tried the day after that and she wasn't there. So I stopped trying. If he doesn't pay up by the 15th I may try the P.O. route again.


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## joe350r2

In your area,  don't forget the Tampa machinery auction. Call some machine shops or some of the manufacturing plants in the area. You might find something 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## rdrasher

joe350r2 said:


> In your area,  don't forget the Tampa machinery auction. Call some machine shops or some of the manufacturing plants in the area. You might find something
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Thanks for the info. I didn't know about them.


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## rdrasher

A little update on this situation........

Of course this clown didn't show up to the courthouse last Monday to pay me. So I filed the paperwork to get my judgement finalized. I know the odds me getting my money isn't very good, but I'll make a few phone calls and such to the D.A. and his probation officer, etc. just to see what my options are and to try and make things hard for this jerk. 

On a side note, I still have the 12 to 15 pieces of tooling  (some new) that I received when I initially paid for the mill. I've been holding on to them so I could return them to him if he actually refunded me the full amount. Now I think I'll see about selling them to recoup some of my losses. Tomorrow I'll do some research to find out what these things are worth. If I can't figure it out I'll post up a couple pics and maybe you guys can tell me if they are worth anything or garbage.

Thanks!


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## expressline99

rdrasher said:


> A little update on this situation........
> 
> Of course this clown didn't show up to the courthouse last Monday to pay me. So I filed the paperwork to get my judgement finalized. I know the odds me getting my money isn't very good, but I'll make a few phone calls and such to the D.A. and his probation officer, etc. just to see what my options are and to try and make things hard for this jerk.
> 
> On a side note, I still have the 12 to 15 pieces of tooling  (some new) that I received when I initially paid for the mill. I've been holding on to them so I could return them to him if he actually refunded me the full amount. Now I think I'll see about selling them to recoup some of my losses. Tomorrow I'll do some research to find out what these things are worth. If I can't figure it out I'll post up a couple pics and maybe you guys can tell me if they are worth anything or garbage.
> 
> Thanks!



Jeeez sorry to hear about this. If not done already you should do like the others said and call building code enforcement. As well, I would send a certified letter explaining what this character is doing to his P.O. so that she understands...but also send one to her boss and maybe another step above.   Someone should flag his ads on Craigslist everyday for being fraudulent. EVERY single day.   Think about this with your judgement that will keep him from buying anything like a house or a business without paying off the judgement.  No one will lend to him with that hanging there.  I see progress here in a way that might protect some other people and possibly already has on this board!  

Rdrasher if you do happen to get a bridgeport I'm happy to help with as little as I know. lol

Paul


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## wrmiller

rdrasher: Wow,  just read through this thread and I am feeling for you. My first thought after reading all this is that I am glad I have never tried to buy one of my machines from a private party. I'm fairly certain I would not have been anywhere near as civil as you have been though. I do hope that everything eventually works out for you! 

Oh, and love the avatar. I played amateur road racer in my younger days out at Willow Springs in SoCal.


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## Charles Spencer

rdrasher said:


> Of course this clown didn't show up to the courthouse last Monday to pay me. So I filed the paperwork to get my judgement finalized. I know the odds me getting my money isn't very good, but I'll make a few phone calls and such to the D.A. and his probation officer, etc. just to see what my options are and to try and make things hard for this jerk.



I once knew an accountant that was stiffed on his bill by a large landowner in his town.  He took the guy to small claims court and won.  Then the client pleaded poverty saying his cash flow was very low.  Of course the accountant knew that was a lie.  In addition to other assets, the guy was the secret owner of a strip club that was rather successful.  But due to professional ethics he couldn't reveal any of this to the court.  So the client was allowed to pay back $300 at the rate of $15 a month for twenty months.


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## rdrasher

expressline99 said:


> Jeeez sorry to hear about this. If not done already you should do like the others said and call building code enforcement. As well, I would send a certified letter explaining what this character is doing to his P.O. so that she understands...but also send one to her boss and maybe another step above.   Someone should flag his ads on Craigslist everyday for being fraudulent. EVERY single day.   Think about this with your judgement that will keep him from buying anything like a house or a business without paying off the judgement.  No one will lend to him with that hanging there.  I see progress here in a way that might protect some other people and possibly already has on this board!
> 
> Rdrasher if you do happen to get a bridgeport I'm happy to help with as little as I know. lol
> 
> Paul


Yeah I'm going to try the P.O. again.
The Craigslist ad is down a while ago.
As far as property or anything in his name, he knows the system and doesn't put stuff in his name.....


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## rdrasher

wrmiller said:


> rdrasher: Wow,  just read through this thread and I am feeling for you. My first thought after reading all this is that I am glad I have never tried to buy one of my machines from a private party. I'm fairly certain I would not have been anywhere near as civil as you have been though. I do hope that everything eventually works out for you!
> 
> Oh, and love the avatar. I played amateur road racer in my younger days out at Willow Springs in SoCal.


I thought I was buying from a business, not an individual. Turns out the business was never registered with the state. Essentially a facade.

Gave up competition several years ago after breaking my back in 2 places. Now it's just track days for fun and showing my kids the fast way around as I pass them into the turn late breakin'. The old man ain't as slow as they think! lol


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## rdrasher

Charles Spencer said:


> I once knew an accountant that was stiffed on his bill by a large landowner in his town.  He took the guy to small claims court and won.  Then the client pleaded poverty saying his cash flow was very low.  Of course the accountant knew that was a lie.  In addition to other assets, the guy was the secret owner of a strip club that was rather successful.  But due to professional ethics he couldn't reveal any of this to the court.  So the client was allowed to pay back $300 at the rate of $15 a month for twenty months.


I wish I could collect a little each month. At least it would be something..... lol


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## rdrasher

Here's some pics of the tooling I got when I purchased the mill. Most look to be new and the rest look to be lightly used. I took pics of the ones that have markings. Maybe you guys can help me out with values? Not worth much probably with my luck..... lol

Thanks in advance!


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## Randall Marx

I might be interested in the tooling if/when you decide to sell it. I'm very sorry to read about all of your troubles in this deal, and appreciate your willingness to help all of us out by sharing the experience. Shows that we all need to be careful about dealing with people and gives me some cues to watch for.
-Randall


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## Silverbullet

If your still planning on a mill keep them all good cutters , the handle can be used on a build or repair.just what I'd do . At most you may get thirty bucks, but to 're buy them you'll pay much more. There not eating or costing . But if your done on milling sell.


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## Blackjackjacques

I am amazed this con man still has his knee caps!


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## Finster

Unfortunately those few end mills aren't really worth selling. Like stated above, unless you don't ever plan on getting a mill. You can buy used end mills on E-Bay all day long for a few dollars each. Have you seen any money from this loser yet? I have to hand it to you, you're a lot more civil than I would be at this point. I would make giving this guy a hard time my career!


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