# First mill chips



## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

Nothing of any consequence, just wanted to see how it felt. 
Was all shaky till I remembered to tighten down the column bolts. Doh!
3/4” 4-flute end mill, mild steel, 5 thou DoC, 50% step over, unknown feed rate. 






Learned:
Need to tram! 
Need sharp end mills
Cranking will get old...


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## darkzero (Mar 4, 2020)

Alright, now we're talking! Just what I have been waiting to see! And the plus is before 11:30pm this time! You getting better already!


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## MontanaLon (Mar 4, 2020)

Good job! Yes, sharp end mills make things much easier and better looking.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

I can see a power feed in my future. 


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## MontanaLon (Mar 4, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I can see a power feed in my future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Get the DRO first, it makes life so much simpler and costs half of what a power feed does. I have been playing with the idea of a home brew power feed made from bits and pieces. With a little planning I think I can make it work.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

MontanaLon said:


> Get the DRO first, it makes life so much simpler and costs half of what a power feed does. I have been playing with the idea of a home brew power feed made from bits and pieces. With a little planning I think I can make it work.



I’m interested in how you rig up your feed. 
DRO is on its way 
I bought the unit in this thread. I exchanged pm’s with gravydog and decided it was what I was looking for. 

Mounting 3-axis DRO to my Grizzly G1006 / RF-30 clone








						Mounting 3-axis DRO to my RF-30 clone
					

After getting my mill set up, the first thing I wanted to do was install a DRO so I wouldn't have to deal with the runout on the X and Y axes and the inaccuracy of the dial on the Z axis (dial marked in thousandths but a full turn is actually only 0.084" instead of 0.100"). Also, they are just...




					r.tapatalk.com
				





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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 4, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I can see a power feed in my future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


see it's already happening!


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 4, 2020)

seriously, you are off to a great start!

learn the difference between climb milling and conventional milling as in regards to your spindle rotation


remember this if nothing else-
climb milling is for only the lightest of finishing cuts
conventional milling hoggs of the material


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> seriously, you are off to a great start!
> 
> learn the difference between climb milling and conventional milling as in regards to your spindle rotation
> 
> ...


Thanks @Ulma Doctor!

Definitely. I was hyper-aware of the rotation and feed direction so as to avoid a climb milling situation the first time out.

I recall the first time I ever climb milled with my router table. 10,000+ rpm in maple. That got real fast even though I thought I was completely prepared for it.


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## Aukai (Mar 4, 2020)

How was tramming in the vise?


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## devils4ever (Mar 4, 2020)

MontanaLon said:


> Get the DRO first, it makes life so much simpler and costs half of what a power feed does. I have been playing with the idea of a home brew power feed made from bits and pieces. With a little planning I think I can make it work.



Or, convert your mill to CNC and get both both power feed and DRO at the same time. That's what I'm in the process of doing.


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## Cadillac STS (Mar 4, 2020)

It is nice to have the power feed on the left if you are right handed so when you do manual feed it is more natural and comfortable movement.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

Aukai said:


> How was tramming in the vise?



I actually didn’t tram the vise. That’s on my to-do list 


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## Alcap (Mar 4, 2020)

I've only had my mill for a little longer then you and it's such a joy to do even drilling holes and lining the tap up. Sure beats the old 1/2 drill in a stand lol


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## Mini Cooper S (Mar 4, 2020)

Congrats! Now you can start the process of learning about the cutter grabing the work piece while climb milling, conventional milling, chatter, backlash, boring holes, power tapping..........and on and on!  Pay close attention to what is happening as you machine things and learn cause and effect. How to do things like reducing burrs on the edge of you work piece, get better finishes, squaring up a block, as I said before "and on and on". One thing you will learn is that climb milling makes it easier to crank the table, just be carful that you don't overload the cutter.  Most of all enjoy the ride.

Richard


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## Janderso (Mar 4, 2020)

You are on your way David.
Drilling holes with a sturdy mill is awesome but for quick and easy, you can't beat a drill press.
I was going to avoid buying a drill press, but......


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## Bob Korves (Mar 4, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I actually didn’t tram the vise. That’s on my to-do list
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First tram the head to the table, carefully, in both X and Y axes.  Only then start thinking about the vise...


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

Bob Korves said:


> First tram the head to the table, carefully, in both X and Y axes. Only then start thinking about the vise...



Indeed. Thanks Bob, that’s my plan. I’m hoping that the original shims will put it tram. Fingers crossed!


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

Janderso said:


> You are on your way David.
> Drilling holes with a sturdy mill is awesome but for quick and easy, you can't beat a drill press.
> I was going to avoid buying a drill press, but......



Thanks, I certainly feel like I’ve entered a new world. 


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

devils4ever said:


> Or, convert your mill to CNC and get both both power feed and DRO at the same time. That's what I'm in the process of doing.


Are you converting a round column mill?


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## devils4ever (Mar 4, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Are you converting a round column mill?



No, I have a PM25.


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## Suzuki4evr (Mar 4, 2020)

MontanaLon said:


> Get the DRO first, it makes life so much simpler and costs half of what a power feed does. I have been playing with the idea of a home brew power feed made from bits and pieces. With a little planning I think I can make it work.


Second that DRO first idea


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

Suzuki4evr said:


> Second that DRO first idea


Coincidentally, it shipped today. Should be here Monday apparently.


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## Suzuki4evr (Mar 4, 2020)

Gr8!!!! Enjoy installing.


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## Shootymacshootface (Mar 4, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Indeed. Thanks Bob, that’s my plan. I’m hoping that the original shims will put it tram. Fingers crossed!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wouldn't expect it to be in tram. What ever it takes to adjust it will be well worth it.
A DRO is a game changer. 
Enjoy the new hobby!


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 4, 2020)

very nice, always a satisfying feeling! You did better than I did - thought my end mill was dull as it was really struggling and raising an enormous burr. Took a while to realise I was running it in reverse  Cut a lot better the other way round!

My mill beginner tip - buy 1/4 and 3/8 roughing end mill. You can find name brand ones from Amazon for $8-10 if you're not too picky about specifics.


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## ACHiPo (Mar 4, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Coincidentally, it shipped today. Should be here Monday apparently.


Ka-ching!


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## middle.road (Mar 4, 2020)

Tram it first Kid, then report back....


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## DavidR8 (Mar 4, 2020)

middle.road said:


> Tram it first Kid, then report back....



Ohh I did that today. 
Got it within .002. I think I can do better though 


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## middle.road (Mar 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Ohh I did that today.
> Got it within .002. I think I can do better though
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Most def.


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## Janderso (Mar 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Coincidentally, it shipped today. Should be here Monday apparently.


You will love the DRO.
As a note of interest, learning to use the DRO takes a bit of study and practice. Considering Machinists have been putting out excellent work for over 100 years without the DRO, I like to sometimes work with the hand wheels and see how close I can come to my goal. If you are careful the old school method works quite well.
I'm not going to turn off the DRO though.
Have fun.


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## Shootymacshootface (Mar 5, 2020)

Janderso said:


> You will love the DRO.
> As a note of interest, learning to use the DRO takes a bit of study and practice. Considering Machinists have been putting out excellent work for over 100 years without the DRO, I like to sometimes work with the hand wheels and see how close I can come to my goal. If you are careful the old school method works quite well.
> I'm not going to turn off the DRO though.
> Have fun.


Yes! It also helps that we are not bending over to read the dials with a candle and a magnifying glass in a dark machine shop. Another reason they are referred to as the greatest generation!


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## Suzuki4evr (Mar 5, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> Took a while to realise I was running it in reverse  Cut a lot better the other way round!


 sorry but that is funny.  Forgive me. It's the way you said it


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## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 5, 2020)

no worries, I was pretty happy to realise the mistake as I thought all my endmills were dull!


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## DavidR8 (Mar 5, 2020)

middle.road said:


> Most def.



Spent some more time working on the tram. 
Managed to get it within .0001 all the way around. I’m happy with that 


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## middle.road (Mar 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Spent some more time working on the tram.
> Managed to get it within .0001 all the way around. I’m happy with that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's better. Now that you have the experience and apparently the touch, come do mine...


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## DavidR8 (Mar 5, 2020)

middle.road said:


> That's better. Now that you have the experience and apparently the touch, come do mine...


It definitely took some fussing. I ended up using multiple layers of foil as the brass shim stock I has was too thick. 
It's amazing that one layer of aluminum foil can make a difference. 4 layers was too much on one corner, 3 layers was just right.
One corner is a bit more than 1/2 a tick over .0001 so not quite the same all the way around but I was making a mess of it trying to chase that down.


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## MontanaLon (Mar 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> It definitely took some fussing. I ended up using multiple layers of foil as the brass shim stock I has was too thick.
> It's amazing that one layer of aluminum foil can make a difference. 4 layers was too much on one corner, 3 layers was just right.
> One corner is a bit more than 1/2 a tick over .0001 so not quite the same all the way around but I was making a mess of it trying to chase that down.


Use cellophane to chase that last .00005.


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## martik777 (Mar 5, 2020)

Consider adding a VFD to that mill. I did mine a year ago and it is wonderful not to have to change belts.

I got a 1HP 3 phase used for $40 and this VFD: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/383005663620


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## DavidR8 (Mar 5, 2020)

martik777 said:


> Consider adding a VFD to that mill. I did mine a year ago and it is wonderful not to have to change belts.
> 
> I got a 1HP 3 phase used for $40 and this VFD: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/383005663620


I am giving it serious consideration after mucking about with the belts over the past few days. I'd like the ability to be more accurate with rpm to get proper SFM.


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## martik777 (Mar 5, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> My mill beginner tip - buy 1/4 and 3/8 roughing end mill. You can find name brand ones from Amazon for $8-10 if you're not too picky about specifics.



These work well:  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/327...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_


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## martik777 (Mar 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I’m interested in how you rig up your feed.



Before I got a real power feed I used a wiper motor mounted to the mill with angle iron and coupled to the shaft with a sleeve that fit the indents on the factory shaft. It was powered by a 12v auto battery and had a fwd/rev switch.  I see some on ebay for ~$100 but they are all for Bridgeports - maybe adaptable to the RF30?


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## MontanaLon (Mar 5, 2020)

Make sure you have a fly cutter or 6 also. They are very useful and seriously make the chips fly.


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## MontanaLon (Mar 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I am giving it serious consideration after mucking about with the belts over the past few days. I'd like the ability to be more accurate with rpm to get proper SFM.


Look at a single phase VFD. Single phase in/ single phase out and you keep your current motor. Cheaper that way. I have looked at it but not dived in yet.


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## mickri (Mar 5, 2020)

I have never gotten a DRO or a power feed.  No money in the budget for either.  I use good old fashioned pencil and paper to keep track of things and plan things out before I even turn on the machine.  I also do a dry run on all of the tooling I plan to use and set the head height accordingly to avoid having to move the head to change tooling.  So far that has worked for me.

I use my ER32 collets for everything.  This eliminates having to fuss with the drawbar to change tooling.  I have not touched the drawbar since installing the ER32 collet chuck.

These mill/drills can't make big hogging cuts.  I mostly use 3/8 and 1/2 end mills.  One of the members here advised me to run at 400 rpm with no more than .020 cuts in steel.  That has worked very well for me.  You will quickly learn the feel on the right pace for manual cuts.  The hardest thing for me was milling a slot.  You are both conventional and climb milling at the same time.  I have ruined several end mills cutting slots.  I now drill out most of the slot and use an end mill smaller than the width of the slot to clean up the edges.

Now you need practice making things.  You will need a bunch of tool holders for your QCTP.  Don't buy them.  Make them.  That's what I did.  You will gain lots of practical experience making the tool holders.

Have fun.  That's the most important part of this hobby.  Having fun.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 5, 2020)

MontanaLon said:


> Look at a single phase VFD. Single phase in/ single phase out and you keep your current motor. Cheaper that way. I have looked at it but not dived in yet.



I didn’t know such a thing existed. 


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## MontanaLon (Mar 5, 2020)

They do, but they are limited in what motors they work with.


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## BrentH (Mar 5, 2020)

2.2kW VFD Drive Inverter, 220V AC Single-Phase Variable Frequency Drive Inverter, Walfront VFD Speed Controller Inverter for 3-Phase Motor : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
					

2.2kW VFD Drive Inverter, 220V AC Single-Phase Variable Frequency Drive Inverter, Walfront VFD Speed Controller Inverter for 3-Phase Motor : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



					www.amazon.ca
				




this VFD is what I have on my mill and lathe  (2Hp 3 phase and 1 Hp 3 phase)  so far so good


According to the installation documentation you can connect as an " AT2" configuration  - and it mentions removing or not removing a run capacitor.....can be done but will require some further research/ proper settings

What is your speed control like now?

Lots of guys running the VFD have to pay attention to the loss of torque as you dial down the frequency.  It is not the best to have a VFD on a  variable speed machine and set it at one "pulley stop" and then speed control the rest of it.  Many machines need the mechanical advantage created by the pulleys or gearing to give them the proper output power/torque.  The VFD can then adjust the "in between"


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## DavidR8 (Mar 6, 2020)

mickri said:


> I have never gotten a DRO or a power feed. No money in the budget for either. I use good old fashioned pencil and paper to keep track of things and plan things out before I even turn on the machine. I also do a dry run on all of the tooling I plan to use and set the head height accordingly to avoid having to move the head to change tooling. So far that has worked for me.
> 
> I use my ER32 collets for everything. This eliminates having to fuss with the drawbar to change tooling. I have not touched the drawbar since installing the ER32 collet chuck.
> 
> ...



Indeed. I ordered a few 3/8” and 1/2” end mills today. 
I am very happy with my ER32 collets so far. I like how easily I can change tooling and the quality of the cut is good though I think my end mills are not terribly sharp. 

My machine is metric, each division of the wheel is .025mm (I think) which means absolutely nothing to me as I cannot think in metric. 

So I’m slowly learning. Today’s accomplishment was getting it well trammed in. Quite happy about that. 


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## mmcmdl (Mar 6, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> You did better than I did - thought my end mill was dull as it was really struggling and raising an enormous burr. Took a while to realise I was running it in reverse  Cut a lot better the other way round!





Suzuki4evr said:


> sorry but that is funny. Forgive me. It's the way you said it



LOL .  None of us have ever done that !  I just tell 'em I was knocking those sharp burrs off the end mills !


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## martik777 (Mar 6, 2020)

BrentH said:


> 2.2kW VFD Drive Inverter, 220V AC Single-Phase Variable Frequency Drive Inverter, Walfront VFD Speed Controller Inverter for 3-Phase Motor : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
> 
> 
> 2.2kW VFD Drive Inverter, 220V AC Single-Phase Variable Frequency Drive Inverter, Walfront VFD Speed Controller Inverter for 3-Phase Motor : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
> ...



Wow, amazon.ca over charges for that VFD It is ~$60USD on ebay

I am able to do 99% of my mill work on one pulley with adequate torque 25-120hz range


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## Dhal22 (Mar 6, 2020)

No doubt metric is better but I'm with you,  beyond a metric rule (cm and mm) I cannot think in metric.   Mostly because I don't care to.   There will be the occasional UK or somewhere else in the world member that tries to ridicule us on still using the old system but I remind them there are 2 types of countries; those that use the metric system and those that have landed on the moon.


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## mickri (Mar 6, 2020)

Somewhere in one of your gazillon posts you showed a picture of one of the dials on your mill/drill.  I tried to find it with no success.  What I recall is that it showed .025mm as the increment for each line.  0.001 inches is equal to 0.0254mm.  0.0004mm is equal to 0.000015748031 inches.  If that is the case your dials have 0.001 increments even though it says 0.025mm.

 Also on my mill/drill one full turn of the dial on the X & Y axis is 0.125".  This was confusing to start with.  One full turn on the Z axis on mine is 0.100".


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## DavidR8 (Mar 6, 2020)

mickri said:


> Somewhere in one of your gazillon posts you showed a picture of one of the dials on your mill/drill. I tried to find it with no success. What I recall is that it showed .025mm as the increment for each line. 0.001 inches is equal to 0.0254mm. 0.0004mm is equal to 0.000015748031 inches. If that is the case your dials have 0.001 increments even though it says 0.025mm.
> 
> Also on my mill/drill one full turn of the dial on the X & Y axis is 0.125". This was confusing to start with. One full turn on the Z axis on mine is 0.100".



Funny you mention this.
I was thinking about it and the 2.54 conversion factor for cm to in. I then realized that I wasn’t thinking clearly when I said it was metric. Obviously the increments are .001 but for whatever reason they denoted them as .025”
Thanks for correcting and confirming my faulty thinking 
Edit: I verified this morning that indeed, the markings are .001". Also discovered that the dials can't be zeroed out. Oh well, can't win them all.

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## ttabbal (Mar 6, 2020)

That's one reason why I love my DRO. I can easily work in metric with inch dials.


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## francist (Mar 6, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Also discovered that the dials can't be zeroed out.


That seems a bit weird. You sure there’s not a set screw disguised as something else somewhere or one of those friction-spring things in the dial that just hasn’t moved for 30 years? Not questioning your intelligence here, just seems like a pretty basic feature on an otherwise fairly well-appointed machine.

-frank


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## DavidR8 (Mar 6, 2020)

francist said:


> That seems a bit weird. You sure there’s not a set screw disguised as something else somewhere or one of those friction-spring things in the dial that just hasn’t moved for 30 years? Not questioning your intelligence here, just seems like a pretty basic feature on an otherwise fairly well-appointed machine.
> 
> -frank


I was rushing out the door to work but took a few minutes to drop an indicator on the table and confirm the travel so I may have missed how they might move.
I'll have a closer look tonight as you're 100% right it is a bit odd. I will look in the manual to see if movable dials are mentioned. 
I will say that counting tick marks without being able to zero the dials is a bit of a challenge.


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## francist (Mar 6, 2020)

Yeah, no kidding!


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## mickri (Mar 6, 2020)

The dial's can't be zero'd out.   They are held in place by a roll pin.  The dials also hold the lead screw in place relative to the table and have slots that the handle fits into.   I have been thinking about how I could modify the dials so they could be zero'd out ever since I got my mill/drill.  I don't have the means to precisely mark new dials in .001 increments.  One full turn of the dial is .125"  A new dial would need to be marked with 125 increments.  I'll figure it out one of these days.


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## mickri (Mar 6, 2020)

From one newbie to another newbie.  Now you need to start practicing.  Start with your lathe.  Get some pvc pipe and practice turning and threading.  Both external and internal.  It doesn't matter what diameters you are turning to or the threads you cut.  You are just learning the process.  Coat your practice pieces with dichem to give you a visual.  Especially when threading.  You can also use a colored marker.  With threading practice even and odd TPI.  The process is a little different for each.  Don't make the sessions too long.  An hour at the most.  Do this each day to see what you remember from the previous day.

After a couple of sessions switch to metal pipe.  Now you will experience how much spring there is in your setup.  Measure the diameter of the pipe.  Make a cut.  The depth of the cut is not important.  Say .010 or .020.  Measure the pipe again.  You will discover that your actual cut was slightly less than you attempted.  This is the spring in your set up.  All lathes have this. Your mill will have spring too.  Knowing the amount of spring for a given cut is important when you are trying to turn to a precise diameter.  Unless you want to make a multiple passes to sneak up to your precise diameter.  Sneaking up is very time consuming.  There are ways to lessen the amount of spring but you can never eliminate it.  Besides more turning experience you will now be gaining experience measuring.  Being able to measure accurately I consider to be the holy grail of machining.  You have to master the art of taking consistent measurements.  Accurate measuring and learning to deal with spring gave me fits when I was first starting.

Next move on to solid steel bar to practice turning to a diameter and threading.  For example get a piece of 5/8 bar and turn the end down to 9/16.  Now thread the bar to fit a 9/16 nut.  Keep doing this for smaller and smaller thread sizes.  Cut the end off and start again.

To practice internal threading you should start with a larger diameter bar.  1 1/2" to 2".  Bore a hole to the smallest size that you can get you threading boring bar into but still to the minor diameter for a common bolt size.  Thread the hole.  Then increase the hole up the next bolt size and so on.

An hour a day for two weeks and you will have this down.

Over on the mill start by just making cuts to get the feel of the machine.  Then move on to milling to precise dimensions.  Making a cube is good practice.  I wish that I had done this.  Do both conventional and climb milling.  Practice drilling and taping holes in precise locations.  Practice cutting slots and dovetails.  Unless you have something else to make I would start making toolholders for your QCTP.  You can never have enough toolholders  Making toolholders is really good practice.

This is very important.  You will messup and make mistakes.  Things won't come out the way you would have liked.  Don't despair.  You will get better as time goes along.  Even the most experienced master machinists messup and make mistakes at times.

Most of all have fun.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 6, 2020)

Thanks @mickri that's great advice. My inclination is to start making useful things. Well I suppose I already did with my wanna-be T-nut. But your point is well taken.

I definitely have my eye on tool-holders as a near-term (?) prize. There's a ton of skills required to get there; layout, milling to precise dimensions, dovetails, slot-cutting, tapping plus a bunch I probably don't know about yet.


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## MontanaLon (Mar 6, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Thanks @mickri that's great advice. My inclination is to start making useful things. Well I suppose I already did with my wanna-be T-nut. But your point is well taken.
> 
> I definitely have my eye on tool-holders as a near-term (?) prize. There's a ton of skills required to get there; layout, milling to precise dimensions, dovetails, slot-cutting, tapping plus a bunch I probably don't know about yet.


I'm sure you know how to cuss, prepare for a post graduate degree in it.


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## ttabbal (Mar 6, 2020)

MontanaLon said:


> I'm sure you know how to cuss, prepare for a post graduate degree in it.



That's how you know that a project is going to work. You bleed and swear.


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## mickri (Mar 6, 2020)

You are going to have order stuff to make the toolholders.  While you are figuring out what you need, getting it ordered and then delivered to you, start practicing.  I would plan on making 10 tool holders.  A baker's dozen would be even better.


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## martik777 (Mar 7, 2020)

mickri said:


> You are going to have order stuff to make the toolholders.  While you are figuring out what you need, getting it ordered and then delivered to you, start practicing.  I would plan on making 10 tool holders.  A baker's dozen would be even better.



I've made about 20 for my shop made QCTP cost about $2 each. I make them from 1018 1x21/4" flat bar stock. I wonder how Aluminum would work?


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## mickri (Mar 7, 2020)

Martik777 nice looking QCTP.  I like the handle to tighten the tool holder. Looks like a norman style like I made.  Have you made an angled tool holder?  Very handy to get into tight places.


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## martik777 (Mar 7, 2020)

That looks handy, KRF made similar ones: https://web.archive.org/web/20131214073829/http://www.krfcompany.com/krfcatalog.pdf

They are no longer around, that is a archive link


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## mickri (Mar 7, 2020)

That is where I got the inspiration to make them.  I have made two so far.  I made the second one so that it can be used either to the left or the right by changing which side you put the screws.


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