# Now Here's A "diamond In The Rough" Project!



## Paul_NJ (Jul 6, 2015)

A number of years ago I picked up (what I believe is a) Van Norman 1/2 base with a Bridgeport head modified into it via a "clamped collet arrangement".  I disassembled it to move it to my workshop barn, and it's been sitting there ever since.  Hoping to clean, paint, and reassemble it this winter.  Viable project or a "fools errand"??!


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## macernst (Jul 6, 2015)

paul, cool project. i just finished a smaller horizontal burke mill. i will put a rusnok head to it.
check it out here:

http://macernst.zenfolio.com/burke-mill

ernst


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## pineyfolks (Jul 6, 2015)

That should make a very useful project. The M-head is a perfect match for it. What taper is the M-head?


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## brino (Jul 6, 2015)

Hey Paul,

That is definitely a great project that will leave you with a useful tool when complete.

Any idea the age of the parts?

I cannot quite tell from the photos, does it have adjustable gibs for the dovetails?
That question is on my mind because I have a circa 1913 horizontal mill patiently waiting for a rebuild and I am trying to decide if I could/should mill a tapered groove in the dovetails to fit in a tapered adjustable gib. I was supposed to get to it last winter.

-brino


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 6, 2015)

pineyfolks said:


> That should make a very useful project. The M-head is a perfect match for it. What taper is the M-head?


Ah, yes, the taper.  Can you tell me what that means and how I can determine that?  Sorry, I'm a complete novice - I'm hoping to learn from rebuilding this machine.


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 6, 2015)

brino said:


> Hey Paul,
> 
> That is definitely a great project that will leave you with a useful tool when complete.
> 
> ...


Sorry, you'll have to help me with this one . . .  where/what are the dovetails/gib?  Ah yes . . . I have many "I was supposed to get to it last winters" as well!


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## Silverbullet (Jul 6, 2015)

Hi Paul ,I'm a bit south of you in jersey, looks like a great project to start with. The parts of the machine you will learn as you go. The taper they're asking about is the bore of the head , the collet type it takes, the m head took a couple of types . Good luck with her.


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## pineyfolks (Jul 6, 2015)

If you have a problem figuring out what something is just post a picture and someone will help you out. None of us like to see a machine setting idle. There's a lot of people here to help you learn as you go.


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 7, 2015)

pineyfolks said:


> If you have a problem figuring out what something is just post a picture and someone will help you out. None of us like to see a machine setting idle. There's a lot of people here to help you learn as you go.


Thanks Bill.  That's the encouragement I need.  Sure love to put this thing back together.  Looks like the Bridgeport head is an "M" . . . .


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 7, 2015)

macernst said:


> paul, cool project. i just finished a smaller horizontal burke mill. i will put a rusnok head to it.
> check it out here:
> 
> http://macernst.zenfolio.com/burke-mill
> ...


I looked through your photos tonight.  Wow, what a great project.  I think there's such satisfaction in bringing a classic old machine back to such beauty!


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## larryr (Jul 8, 2015)

Paul_NJ said:


> A number of years ago I picked up (what I believe is a) Van Norman 1/2 base with a Bridgeport head modified into it via a "clamped collet arrangement".  I disassembled it to move it to my workshop barn, and it's been sitting there ever since.  Hoping to clean, paint, and reassemble it this winter.  Viable project or a "fools errand"??!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Paul_NJ said:


> Thanks Bill.  That's the encouragement I need.  Sure love to put this thing back together.  Looks like the Bridgeport head is an "M" . . . .
> View attachment 106947


j have a van norman model 12 that i mounted a bridgeport  model m head . i used the overarm bar to attach the head.this head has made the machine more fun to use. i can remove the m head in about ten minutes if i want to use the horizontal mill function. i have lost the ability to tilt the head in the y axis but the van norman head will do that. the m head lacks a back gear and spindle brake but that hasnt caused me any problems. the spindle is no 2 morse taper and collets are readily available . the motor is  1/2 hp 3ph so you will need a vfd or phase converter.good luch with your project.


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## Cal Haines (Jul 8, 2015)

Paul, Does the machine have the original cutter-head?

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 8, 2015)

Cal Haines said:


> Paul, Does the machine have the original cutter-head?
> 
> _Cal_


No, I never got that from the prior owner.


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 8, 2015)

larryr said:


> j have a van norman model 12 that i mounted a bridgeport  model m head . i used the overarm bar to attach the head.this head has made the machine more fun to use. i can remove the m head in about ten minutes if i want to use the horizontal mill function. i have lost the ability to tilt the head in the y axis but the van norman head will do that. the m head lacks a back gear and spindle brake but that hasnt caused me any problems. the spindle is no 2 morse taper and collets are readily available . the motor is  1/2 hp 3ph so you will need a vfd or phase converter.good luch with your project.


Thanks, glad to hear that.  And yes, I know it's 3 Ph.  Another project is to put together a converter using this 5HP 3Ph motor, just waiting . . .


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## Cal Haines (Jul 9, 2015)

Paul_NJ said:


> ...  Another project is to put together a converter using a 3HP 3Ph motor, just waiting . . .


Paul,

WNY Supply has nice panels for under $200 and kits for as low as $62.  I don't think you can buy the parts yourself and save enough to make it worth the trouble:
http://www.wnysupply.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/25258
http://www.wnysupply.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/25260

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 9, 2015)

Cal Haines said:


> Paul,
> 
> WNY Supply has nice panels for under $200 and kits for as low as $62.  I don't think you can buy the parts yourself and save enough to make it worth the trouble:
> http://www.wnysupply.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/25258
> ...


Thanks Cal   . . .  great information!  I will definitely look into that.  There's just not enough hours in the day to do everything myself, although I seem to keep trying . . .


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 16, 2015)

Paul_NJ said:


> No, I never got that from the prior owner.



I take my earlier statement back . . . I believe the VN cutting head is on the left side . . .   the Bridgeport slides in the horizontal bore.  How the original cutting head would be powered is another mystery, although the pile of old components might have something to do with it . . . ??


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## macking chips (Jul 17, 2015)

Paul_NJ said:


> Thanks Bill.  That's the encouragement I need.  Sure love to put this thing back together.  Looks like the Bridgeport head is an "M" . . . .
> View attachment 106947


I also have a M head Bridgeport project awaiting some restoration work. The previous owner installed sealed bearings into the quill, so no more oiling. It is a #2 MT and he included all the tooling he had. He went with a bigger J head. My unit has a sump oiling pump in the body of the base, is this a common thing with these older units ? The base is questionable, saddle and knee, as they were packed with grease. I want to check the surfaces for flatness and parallelism. My problem is lack of proper tooling. I have 2 surface plates, and a 5ft. humpback straight edge that was just scraped in. I need to find a 2ft. unit that is more manageable to use. Will post some pictures soon.
Stan


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## Cal Haines (Jul 18, 2015)

Paul_NJ said:


> I take my earlier statement back . . . I believe the VN cutting head is on the left side . . .   the Bridgeport slides in the horizontal bore.  How the original cutting head would be powered is another mystery, although the pile of old components might have something to do with it . . . ??
> 
> View attachment 107514
> 
> ...



Here's some photos of a number 1/2 (say "one slash two"; not "one half") that I used to own.  It also had an M-head. Your drive was probably similar.







_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Jul 18, 2015)

Cal, thanks for posting those photos.  Wow, that was quite a rig!  I think all of those belts going at the same time would worry me.  I suppose if I ever needed to do any sort of horizontal work, I could cobble together a way to drive the old VN head.  Those older machines really amaze me.  I'll save your photos as there isn't much available on the 1/2 VN . . . . and thanks for the clarification:  I felt kind of strange calling it a "Van Norman one half".

Speaking of horizontal milling . . . here's something interesting . .  my neighbor gave me this old machine a number of year ago. . . no immediate plans to restore it, or what I'd use it for if I did, but kind of "cute"


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## Cal Haines (Jul 20, 2015)

Paul,

Most of the pulleys are for the X axis feed.  It's actually missing one set of belts in the photos.  These machines were originally designed be powered by an overhead drive shaft that would power a whole line of machines.  The No. 1/2 design dates to the 1890s.  I think that I posted links to the patents.

The Ames looks interesting.  It may be some sort of horizontal drilling machine.  Probably a line drive machine as well, based on the large flat belt pulleys.

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Oct 22, 2015)

The summer sure flew by!  I just returned from 3 weeks in Malawi, Africa where I lead a volunteer effort to install solar based lighting in orphan centers, and hope to get caught up making a little progress on restoring my antique 1/2 VN mill before the weather turns too cold here in NJ.  I've got the base scraped down and primed.  I'll top coat that today.  Next I'd like to tackle the table, which has been lying on it's side on 4x4's since I dragged the thing home 8 years ago.  It was easy taking it apart back then - the guy I bought it from lifted the "pieces" off with this backhoe to make transportation easier.  Yesterday I moved the pieces into their "new home" from their various storage corners of my barn with an engine crane.  I had long forgotten how heavy this stuff is.

Problem is that I've got no experience in this sort of thing and I'm not sure the best way to proceed.  I'd like to disassemble the table for cleaning, painting, and lubrication.   I was thinking it might be best to reinstall the table mechanism onto the base, and then begin the dissasembly process from there, but I don't want to do this twice!  I suppose another option may be to set the table upside-down and see what I can do from there.  Not even sure how this thing comes apart, or even if I should do so.  And then finally aligning the bed and vertical "lift screw?" into the base using the engine crane is going to be a bit of a challenge.  Perhaps rigging up a electric winch overhead would be better?  These are "uncharted waters for me and I'd love to hear how others have tackled projects such as this.


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## JimDawson (Oct 22, 2015)

I think I would start by rolling the table flat onto the 4 bys, then pull the X lead screw out of the table.  Remove the bolts from the front dovetail then pull the Y up with your engine hoist, or slide it off if you can't get the bolts out.  It looks like you can do most of the lifting operations with your engine hoist.  I would not use an electric hoist in this application, they don't have fine enough control.  A manual chain hoist would work well.


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## middle.road (Oct 22, 2015)

+1 to Jim's suggestion of a manual chain hoist. Unless you've got access to a well made electric hoist.
Some of the winches just don't have the braking capacity to hold a 'dead' load in air.
Quite a while back I knew a guy who used a winch that was mounted on a trailer with a tripod to remove 
a V8 engine. They were removing it from a wreak, and when it was up and out and they were getting ready to
push the donor our of the way the load came down. Thankfully noone was in the way.
Can't remember the make of the winch but it was 1200# and mounted on a tandem axle trailer. 
(Another case where I should pay more attention or take notes...)


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## Paul_NJ (Oct 23, 2015)

Thanks guys.  I followed your advice Jim, and with a little coaxing was able to separate the table and lifting block (terminology?).  Great!  You're right, the engine crane is much smoother to lift and lower with, and I can roll things around as well.  Not sure how I am going to install the table assembly onto the base when the time comes - - - perhaps assembling the table onto the base piece-by-piece?  At my rate of completing things, that may be a while yet.  I'll ask when the time comes.

I was amazed how easily the leadscrews could be removed, via simply backing out the "threaded retainer collets".  Now that I have all 3 lead screws out, I'd like to clean up the handles.  Restorations I've seen have handles that shine like new.  What's a good way to remove rust and get the handles shiny?  I was thinking an aggresive buffing wheel?

After I get things degreased and painted, what is the appropriate lubricant for the lead screws?  How about the sliding surfaces?  Also, I always see there is an adjustment lever on the sliding side of the dovetail mechanism.  What is that for?  Is there a set-up procedure for sliding dovetails?  As you can see, this is a first time learning experience for me.  I appreciate all the help and suggestions I can receive.

Paul


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## Cal Haines (Oct 23, 2015)

You photo shows three major pieces:  the knee, the saddle and the table.  The knee is on the bottom and moves vertically (Z axis); the saddle moves in and out (Y-axis); the table moves side to side (X-axis).

I would take everything apart, clean, inspect, lubricate and reassemble.  I would reassemble the major components onto the base, starting with the knee.  It will be easier to handle if you remove the elevating screw.  It should come loose from the knee at the bevel gear on the top.  On No. 12s, there is a set screw in the bevel gear.  Remove the setscrew and you can remove the gear.  Remove the Woodruff key and the elevating screw should pull out of the casting from below:







Use Vactra No. 2 way oil to lubricate the screws and ways.

I would be very interested in lots of photo of your progress.

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Oct 23, 2015)

Thanks Cal . . . I appreciate your explanations and descriptions.  This is new territory for me, but I've always found the best way to understand something is to get elbo deep in it.  And having friends to explain things as you go.  This is starting to not seem so intimidating . . . 

I'll start taking more photos.

Paul


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## Cal Haines (Oct 24, 2015)

By the way, I used a "pickle fork" ball joint tool from Harbor Freight to get the bevel gear off of the elevating screw.  It's just the right tool for the job.  I used a brass drift to tap upwards on the gear first, to get enough space for the pickle fork.

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Oct 24, 2015)

Thanks Cal.  So far disassembly has been pleasantly uneventful, thanks to receiving proper guidance from this forum.  Compared to my other hobby of restoring old tractors, where most bolt removal is associated with heating with an acetylene torch and a 4 foot cheater bar, rounded nuts, and the occasional snapped faster.  I was amazed how easily I was able to remove all three lead screws.  What I did find strange is that the threaded "retaining collet" for each of the lead screws behind the handle wheels had what first appeared to be a setscrew, but turning it out proved to be more of a 1/8" thick threaded "cap".    They certainly don't appear to be part of any "locking action".  Can you tell me what that is all about?

Paul


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## Cal Haines (Oct 26, 2015)

Paul_NJ said:


> ...  I was amazed how easily I was able to remove all three lead screws.  What I did find strange is that the threaded "retaining collet" for each of the lead screws behind the handle wheels had what first appeared to be a setscrew, but turning it out proved to be more of a 1/8" thick threaded "cap".    They certainly don't appear to be part of any "locking action".  Can you tell me what that is all about?
> 
> Paul


I think that if you check, you'll find a brass plug under the setscrew.  The collar is there to control the movement of the screw and handle in the casting.  There's a very fine thread under the collar and the brass plug lets the collar be locked in place without damaging the threads.

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Oct 30, 2015)

Well, here are a few photos to prove I am doing something.  The base is painted, now working on the knee.  Wish I had a sandblaster for getting into the crevices . . .









I've got an order in for some Vactra 2 (looks like Zoro has the best deal) so I can lubricate things after I get the vertical ways surface rust cleaned, and then assemble the knee into the base (once I get it painted).  Are there instructions archived anywhere to provide instructions for installing the gib?  It looks like a non-tapered gib to me.  Cleaning up the saddle and table will be a challenge. Thank goodness for the engine crane - made moving things around by myself possible.






This is the "machine room" I partitioned off of the lower level of my barn this summer, where I hope to create a separate area for a few metal working tools.  Still work to be done there too, but at least I've got the framing done and the lights hung.  Now if I only had some heat down there . . .


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## Cal Haines (Nov 1, 2015)

You're being kind of stingy with the photos there, pal.   We need to see photos of every single step in disassembly and reassembly.

Nothing special about the gib.  Just bolt it loosely to the knee and lower the works onto the column.  I like to set up an indicator and tighten the gib bolts until I can't cause the indicator to deflect by pushing/pulling at right angles to the ways.  They'll probably seem too tight to you, but there should be some drag.



Were you able to find a serial number on the machine?  (It's stamped on the top of the column way on later machines.)

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 5, 2015)

OK, thanks.  Once I paint the knee, I'll figure a way to install it onto the column.  I thought I'd try supporting the knee from above, lowering it onto the z screw first screwed down into the base.  Not sure how that is going to go . . . I'll be sure to take photos.  

I'll get the serial number today when I get up to the farm.

It was suggested to use way oil on the lead screws . . . what about lubrication for the bearing  (using Cal's photo) and the pinion gears for the z axis mechanism?


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 5, 2015)

The serial number stamped on the column way, and also on the underside of the table, is 8142.  I'd be very interested to know what that reveals about the machine.

Had a little time today to work on the VN - - is it worth separating the saddle and the table?  With the x lead screw out, I have to move the table with the help of a bar clamp for cleaning, paint removal.  Wondering if I should leave that pair alone . . . 

My VN 1/2 was set up by the PO to hold a Bridgeport M (1/2 HP, 3P) head, and I plan to reassemble it in that fashion.  But I see there is a very functional x feed mechanism in nice condition fastened to the underside of the table (OK, I'll post a photo tomorrow . . .)
I assume this was a regular part of the VN 1/2 design?  Has anyone utilized this feature by adding an external motor . . . any postings on doing this?  I may not get to this for awhile, but sure would be a great addition!


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## Cal Haines (Nov 6, 2015)

I would not install the elevating screw until the knee is safely mated with the vertical ways and suspended, for fear of damaging the screw.  I would use an engine hoist.

Use way oil for everything.  Get an oil can with a flexible snout and put a few drops on the gears from time to time.  Oil the leadscrew and wipe down with a cloth dampened in way oil.  The hole in the bearing block at the top of the elevation screw on a No. 12 has a brass oil cup screwed into it; not sure about a 1/2.

I would DEFINITELY separate the saddle and table.  Clean, inspect and lubricate everything. Blow out all the oil passages with brake parts cleaner.  If the table is hard to move by hand, you can loosen the gib until you can push it back and forth easily.  There should be screws at either end that move the gib back and forth. Loosen one before you tighten the other.  Tightening one screw will tighten the gib, the other one will loosen it.  Take the screws out and remove the gib before you separate the table.

The feed mechanism is original.  It was originally powered by pulleys and flat belts from the same power source as the rest of the machine.

The serial number isn't going to tell you much about a machine of that vintage unless you can find a old serial number reference book.  The one used for the Kasunich site covers a newer serial number scheme.  In the day your machine was built I think they used the same series of numbers for all machines.  Starting around WWII they gave each machine series it's own 4-digit serial numbers with a model number prefix.  No. 12 started at 12-5000.  The fact that your serial number is only 4 digits suggests that it's a fairly old machine; I think that they were well into 5 digits by the time they switched to the new serial numbers.

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 6, 2015)

Cal Haines said:


> I would DEFINITELY separate the saddle and table.  Clean, inspect and lubricate everything. Blow out all the oil passages with brake parts cleaner.  If the table is hard to move by hand, you can loosen the gib until you can push it back and forth easily.  There should be screws at either end that move the gib back and forth. Loosen one before you tighten the other.  Tightening one screw will tighten the gib, the other one will loosen it.  Take the screws out and remove the gib before you separate the table.
> 
> _Cal_


Many thanks Cal for your insights and suggestions.  However, as much as I agree and would like to separate the saddle and table, unless I can slide the table off of one end of the saddle ways by cranking on a bar clamp, I'm not sure I can remove the table.  I'll try removing the surface rust on the ways & lubricating them, and see if I can un-mate them.   I imagine I'll have to do this vertically.  However . . . and I will go back up to the farm workshop and take a photo I can post tomorrow that shows this . . .  the screws holding the gib are half underneath the table.  There's no way I can loosen then let alone remove them.  And if I did, how could I adjust them once the table and saddle are "re-united"?  Seems like I need to leave them where they are.  It seem to be a really strange design. . . .


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 7, 2015)

Hey Cal  <you're the only one following me on this . . .>

Considering the table covers half the gib screws, I don't know how you are supposed to adjust the table gib, unless you cantilever the table way out to access the screws  . . . . which I can't see doing when the table is on the machine . . . anyway . . .









But with some ScotchBrite scouring and oiling of the table ways I was able to free up the table so I could slide the saddle horizontaly off of the upside-down table . . .








Once I get the saddle and table cleaned up and lubricated I think I'll be able to set them side-by-side on two horizontal surfaces of different heights, and slide them back together.

That's a pretty slick power feed mechanism built into the table - since the "working head" will be Bridgeport powered, I'd like to figure out a way to utilize the table feed with an auxiliary motor - maybe someone has done that somewhere . . .

The floor of my cow barn (now machine shop to be . . .) isn't level - was pitched to the "sluice gutter" - I just shoved 3/8" plywood shims under the base.  Any problem with doing that? - considering when I jack up a barn to set replacement structural beams -  it ends up on plywood shims - but of course a structure isn't powered and vibrating . . .


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## Cal Haines (Nov 7, 2015)

It looks like the gibs are set up differently that those on a No. 12.  The No. 12's table gib moves sideways to tighten.  The adjusting screws are on either end of the gib and on the front of the table, at the bottom.

I  would get some adjustable machinery mounts and just level the machine up with them:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPAGE?PMPAGE=/specials/325-6627

I don't see any reason why you couldn't use a second motor to drive the feed mechanism.  That's how it works on the No. 12.

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 11, 2015)

Another step forward . . . 







Took a while to figure out how to get the knee pinion gears installed . . .  until I realized I had the keys reversed - the smaller gear's key is slightly shallower than the other.  Ah well . . 

Sure raises and lowers easily now.  So what is the purpose of the gib screw with the handle?  How is that used?

Paul


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## JimDawson (Nov 11, 2015)

Paul_NJ said:


> Sure raises and lowers easily now. So what is the purpose of the gib screw with the handle? How is that used?



I'm guessing that is the knee lock.


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## Cal Haines (Nov 11, 2015)

Yes, that's to lock the knee when you need a little extra rigidity.

The paint job is looking good!

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 12, 2015)

Thanks Cal,

Looking ahead, cleaning up the top "ram section?" is going to be a chore.  Looks like there's a seal leaking somewhere.  As I'm initially only anticipating using it to mount a Bridgeport M head, I'm wondering if it may be simplest to remove the original cutting head and right angle drive from the section until such time as I might wish for horizontal milling capability.  And as I'd have to rig up a secondary drive to do that, it's likely not happening for a while.  But before I begin removing them I'd like to have some idea what I'm dealing with.  And of course I don't want to lose any critical alignments I'll regret later.  Is there a VN 1/2 breakdown available anywhere?  Has anyone done this?

Advice is always welcome!


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## Cal Haines (Nov 12, 2015)

Paul,

There should be 3 bolts that hold the cutter-head to the side of the ram.  Remove them and the head should come off the side of the ram, leaving the pinion gear sticking out the side of the ram.  I would leave the right angle drive in place, it shouldn't be in your way.

You will find that for vertical milling the original cutter head is far more capable than your Bridgeport M-head ever dreamed of being.  Unless you are pressed for time, I suggest that you clean up and use the original cutter head for milling and use the M-head for drilling operations.

Did the previous owner have it set up with a motor?

_Cal_


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## Silverbullet (Nov 12, 2015)

I vote with Cal , rebuild the head it will mill better then the little m head will . It shouldn't be to bad after all if it was made back when it was made to be rebuilt . We use to do things that way not like the by new and throw away nation we've become. Good luck with her and nice job on the rebuild so far , keep it up we will be proud with you . Gary


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 12, 2015)

Thanks Cal and Gary,

I appreciate your advice and I will clean up and keep the VN head on the machine.  The previous owner, I don't believe, ever used the VN head, because it shows no sign of being set up with a motor.  I did get a single VN collet and connecting rod/tube.  The machine itself did come with quite a few original drive elements but I unbolted everything I could that was attached to the base to facilitate the move.  I would like to eventually develop the capability to use the VN head, but to simplify and streamline/modernize the motor drive mechanics if possible.  Has anyone done so?  Can you direct me to any relevant threads on doing this?




Something that may be interesting to you guys is the way the previous owner adapted the Bridgeport head to the VN base - he fabricated a "slotted collet", turned to fit the B-M head shaft OD and the VN head base ID.

I don't know if this is common or not?

Just cleaning off the surface rust - would you coat it with a light oil or would that affects it's holding capability?  







I very much appreciate your advice and suggestions.  This, for me, is so far only a "restoration", but my hope is to actually learn how to use it when I'm done.

Paul


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## Cal Haines (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm not picturing how the M-head was attached to the machine. Can you elaborate? Oiling the adapter tube won't affect it's holding power.

If you look at the photos that I posted of my 1/2, you can see how it was done there.  It had a gearbox that sat between the motor and the pulleys that drove the horizontal shaft into the right angle drive.  You could just mount a 3-phase motor where the gearbox is and change the flat belt pulley on the shaft to a double-belt pulley, like that used on my old machine.  Run the motor with a VFD.  It should be very straight forward to make a bracket for the motor.  I would use at least a 3HP motor so that you still have some torque when you dial it down.

Here's how another guy did it:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...86209109-van-norman-came-cold-l-img_4612a.jpg
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...an-came-cold-vn_one_half_table_feed_belts.jpg

_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 13, 2015)

Thanks for those images - that certainly is a do-able project!  I assume the pointed to components are transferring power to drive the table x feed?




The bracket holding the pulleys the motor is driving to power the VN head I assume (in my pile of "spare parts") is this one?  I'll have to drag it out and see how I can separate the belt wheels from the shaft.  Thank goodness I didn't part these out - just the other day someone was asking me if I wanted to part with the VN head . . .




Regarding the BP adapter . . . 

The shaft the BP is attached to . . .




fits into the VN ram head




with the ID/OD difference compensated, and held in place, via the slotted collet . . . 

Thanks again!

Paul


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 13, 2015)

Cal Haines said:


> I'm not picturing how the M-head was attached to the machine. Can you elaborate? Oiling the adapter tube won't affect it's holding power.
> 
> If you look at the photos that I posted of my 1/2, you can see how it was done there.  It had a gearbox that sat between the motor and the pulleys that drove the horizontal shaft into the right angle drive.  You could just mount a 3-phase motor where the gearbox is and change the flat belt pulley on the shaft to a double-belt pulley, like that used on my old machine.  Run the motor with a VFD.  It should be very straight forward to make a bracket for the motor.  I would use at least a 3HP motor so that you still have some torque when you dial it down.
> 
> ...


Cal, I tried to find the original source from the PM forum you referenced, but I ran out of patience in the 77 pages there.  Could you get me to it?  Thanks!


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## Cal Haines (Nov 13, 2015)

Paul,

OK, I see now, the M-head mounts in place of the overarm arbor support.  Do you have the arbor support bar?  I see that you have the bracket that goes on the bar.

You have correctly identified the belts in the first photo.  If I was you, I would use the existing pulleys with flat belts, which also gets your table feed working.  I would remove the big bull-wheel from the bracket and shaft in the back of your pile, belt up the motor there and run everything else with flat belts. Do you have the idler pulleys that mount near the bottom of the base?

Here are a few sources for flat belts.:
http://www.pagebelting.com/
http://www.mindravegroup.com/hudsonbelting/
http://www.mcmaster.com/#flat-belts/=zssbf6​
I put some photos of my machine in post number #19 of your thread:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/now-heres-a-diamond-in-the-rough-project.36774/#post-316746​
_Cal_


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 14, 2015)

Cal,

While I know I'm not going to be able to devote the time to accomplish getting the VN head functioning right away, because we're talking about this right now I'd like to sort out in my mind a plan for when I do.

I believe A is the arbor support bar you were asking about, and C is the arbor support bracket.

I have absolutely no idea what B is, or where it goes, as it was never connected when I bought the machine.  I think that is the "bull wheel" part you suggested I connect an external motor to?  Can you tell me where that attaches??

I do have the idler pulleys and shaft that connect to the base - I took them off during cleaning and painting.

From the image you provided I recognize E as the mechanism driving the table feed.

I also realize now I'm missing the large hand wheel that connects to the table feed mechanism (in front).




As always I appreciate your help.

Paul


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## Paul_NJ (Nov 15, 2015)

I found this document over on the Yahoo Van Norman site and did a little Photoshop "magic" to sharpen it up. . . . .


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## Cal Haines (Nov 15, 2015)

Hi Paul,

Thanks for posting the brochure.  I don't think that I've seen that before.

"B" is the part with the bull wheel.  I suspect that I mounts on the right side of the base or column, directly below "D", with the two stepped pulleys lined up (large-to-small and small-to-large), bull wheel facing to the rear.  Are there tapped holes in the base or column for "B" and "D"?


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## Paul_NJ (Dec 1, 2015)

Any experience in removing the stepped pulleys from the shaft in the upper drive bracket (into which the VN cutter head "drive shaft" slides)?  The outer pulley came off easily when I removed it's setscrew, and there is a large setscrew in the inner pulley which I removed, but even (gently) using my hydraulic press I can't budge the inner pulley on the shaft (or turn it on the shaft for that matter).  Is there another "hidden" set screw somewhere I'm missing?  I tried pushing both ways in case there is a step in the shaft . . .







Also, there is a keyway in one end of the pulley shaft (about 1 1/2 inches long), and a matching keyway along the entire length of the head drive shaft that slides into the pulley shaft.  I received all this apart, so I've never seen it assembled.  Is there a long key that slides in to link the two keyways?







The smallest step is an idler/spacer that turns very freely on the shaft.

Don't want to use excessive force or flood everything unnecessarily with penetrating oil, if I'm missing something silly.  Wouldn't be the first time . . .

Thanks

Paul


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## Glenn Brooks (Dec 1, 2015)

Sometimes taper pins are hard to see through rust and paint.  Your second photo in your most recent post shows the end view of a pulley.  At the 10:00 o'clock position there appears to be a dimple, or indent in the surface of the bracket - tucked up towards the big end of the pulley.  Is this another pin???

I have no experience with the VN assembly, but  shafts are shafts, mostly.  Gunk, grime, and pins are the usual suspects when a shaft won't come out.  Penetrating oil in copious quantities is a good thing.  Also try heating the shaft a little with a propane touch.  Then flood it with penetrating oil- repeatedly over several days - if necessary. The heat will expand the metal slightly and break any residual seal around the shaft, then the oil will shrink it and draw deeper into the journal or bearing as it cools.   it might just pop loose when you least expect it.


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## Silverbullet (Dec 1, 2015)

If I haven't offered , I have a belt lacer or two and some of the lacing joiners. A couple pieces of belting but not much , of course if I do have your size it wouldn't be enough. No that's usually my luck. So if you need to let me know. Hell I can sell ya one if ya want.


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## Paul_NJ (Dec 2, 2015)

Glenn Brooks said:


> Sometimes taper pins are hard to see through rust and paint.  Your second photo in your most recent post shows the end view of a pulley.  At the 10:00 o'clock position there appears to be a dimple, or indent in the surface of the bracket - tucked up towards the big end of the pulley.  Is this another pin???
> 
> I have no experience with the VN assembly, but  shafts are shafts, mostly.  Gunk, grime, and pins are the usual suspects when a shaft won't come out.  Penetrating oil in copious quantities is a good thing.  Also try heating the shaft a little with a propane touch.  Then flood it with penetrating oil- repeatedly over several days - if necessary. The heat will expand the metal slightly and break any residual seal around the shaft, then the oil will shrink it and draw deeper into the journal or bearing as it cools.   it might just pop loose when you least expect it.



Thanks Glenn,

That indent you detected is just an oil hole in the bracket to lubricate the shaft. Anyway, the shaft turns freely in the bracket . . . it's just that I can't turn, or slide, the pulley on the shaft. I filled the setscrew hole in the pulley with Kroil and let's see if anything loosens. That pulley is a pretty large mass of steel so I'll first give it time. 

Paul


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## Paul_NJ (Dec 2, 2015)

Before I put the table back on, I'd like to lubricate the x-axis drive mechanism.  I'd appreciate any suggestion on how to oil the bearing housings.  Do I remove those screws in the casting  ? . . .


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## Paul_NJ (Dec 2, 2015)

Silverbullet said:


> If I haven't offered , I have a belt lacer or two and some of the lacing joiners. A couple pieces of belting but not much , of course if I do have your size it wouldn't be enough. No that's usually my luck. So if you need to let me know. Hell I can sell ya one if ya want.



Thanks Silverbullet,

My original reason for removing the shaft and pulley was, after cleaning, painting, and lubrication, eventually to find a V-belt pulley to put on the shaft.  Maybe what you're suggesting is the best approach, just stick with a flat belt and leave it together.  To be honest I know nothing about belts, or even what a belt lacer is.  But that's still pretty far down the road on this project!

Paul


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## Glenn Brooks (Dec 4, 2015)

Paul_NJ said:


> Thanks Glenn,
> 
> That indent you detected is just an oil hole in the bracket to lubricate the shaft. Anyway, the shaft turns freely in the bracket . . . it's just that I can't turn, or slide, the pulley on the shaft. I filled the setscrew hole in the pulley with Kroil and let's see if anything loosens. That pulley is a pretty large mass of steel so I'll first give it time.
> 
> Paul


Paul,  I mentioned heating the shaft as I had a similar problem when rejuvenating my Dalton lathe earlier this year.  The pulley would turn on the shaft, but would not budge off the shaft.  Turns out it was rusted tightly to the shaft.  The corrosion over the years formed an impenetrable barrier to the Kroil oil.  Hence the heat treatment to break it free. Once the barrier was broken the Kroil was free to penetrate the shaft enuf to withdraw it.  

Also it came out one side more freely than the other side, due to a slight misalignment with the casting- similar to driving the pulley onto a slight taper.  It came loose after several days of treatment- just as I had about given up hope of freeing it!


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## Cal Haines (Dec 9, 2015)

Paul,

It's very common to find a second set screw behind the outer one.  The outer one simply acts as a plug when there are deep holes.  Make some measurements to see if the set screw hole is deep enough to go to the shaft.

What type of end did the set screw have?

Make sure that you look inside the shaft to make sure that the key isn't in there.  "Tit Keys", which have a pin built in, are often used to keep the key from moving on the shaft; the shaft has a hole for the pin.  If not, a common key should work just fine.  You may have to dress it to size.

If the saddle forms a reservoir around the gears, fill it with Mobile Vactra way oil to lubricate the gears.


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## Paul_NJ (Dec 23, 2015)

Not much progress to report . . .  still plunking along as time permits.  Cal, thanks .  . . but still haven't freed the pulley off of the shaft.  The set screw has a flat end, and depth measurements don't seem to indicate there's anything else in the threaded hole.  Looks like there is a rough depression in the shaft that the set screw bottomed into.   The shaft turns freely in the bracket . . . but the pulley and shaft won't separate.  May have to resort to Glenn's suggestion and get out the rosebud tip for the acetylene torch.

Moved on to cleaning up the VN ram head . . .




Also bringing home my latest acquisition of quite old SB Model A.  May have an operating "machine shop" one of these days.


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## Paul_NJ (Mar 8, 2017)

Wow, I had to check the date myself . . .  it's been over a year since last update!  After developing sawdust related asthma, my doctor ordered me to put a dust collection system into my barn/workshop, which working by yourself takes time.  I digress . . .




I do have the table and headstock  painted and installed, and the Bridgeport M head installed on top.




I'm pulling the table into place with a bar clamp, but need to figure out how to adjust the jib, which doesn't seem possible considering the jib screws are half covered by the table.  I think that's why I took a break and went on to other things . . .

Also, until I design and build a rotary phase converter to power the 3P BP head, there's not a pressing need to finish the assembly details.  Not enough hours in the day!

Also, still hoping to find a way to get the upper drive multistep pulley off of the shaft . . . .


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## Silverbullet (Mar 8, 2017)

There's a RPC on craigslist for $200.00 3 HP I think it's in Lancaster pa. If I remember . Should run what you have. I just bought all the stuff to make mine . I guess I have $500.00 with buying used parts on eBay . Two hrs drive is worth $300. Or so. Wish I could latch on to a VN  mill 12 or 16 . But I want them all shaper , kT  , 16" lathe monarch of course. Big belt grinder all the goodies. Glad to see your getting the mill working . Just thought I'd let YA know about the RPC ,there's another one on too for $500 but it newer and stronger even a 15 hp on craigslist I saw somewhere the other day. Good luck wear a mask and have fun.


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## Paul_NJ (Mar 8, 2017)

Silverbullet said:


> There's a RPC on craigslist for $200.00 3 HP I think it's in Lancaster pa. If I remember . Should run what you have. I just bought all the stuff to make mine . I guess I have $500.00 with buying used parts on eBay . Two hrs drive is worth $300. Or so. Wish I could latch on to a VN  mill 12 or 16 . But I want them all shaper , kT  , 16" lathe monarch of course. Big belt grinder all the goodies. Glad to see your getting the mill working . Just thought I'd let YA know about the RPC ,there's another one on too for $500 but it newer and stronger even a 15 hp on craigslist I saw somewhere the other day. Good luck wear a mask and have fun.


Good to hear from you again "NJ neighbor"- wish you lived closer and I'd check in on your RPC project.  Yes, I've been going back and forth wondering if I should just look for a used RPC.  I've had a almost new 5 HP - 3P Marathon motor a friend gave me years ago I've been intending to use to build a RPC but not sure if I'll ever get to it!  Could you tell me where you found good "cookbook" instructions toward building one?


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## Silverbullet (Mar 8, 2017)

Check out my post at ,,, P is for planer,,  Ulna sent me the build configuration it's in my post. I bought everything but the 5 hp motor on eBay . Make sure you get 220 or higher volt capacitors , you need 1 start cap and maybe up to three run caps. 220 volt magnetic contactor two push buttons , writing terminal block. Yellow wire eye ends 10 gauge wire three colors and bare copper. Red white black green . And fuse block and fuses triple block mini cartridge work .plus the plugs or boxes to your machines. His wiring diagram is easy to follow. The planer is why I'm going to all this expense. I plan on a vfd on my mill.oh I forgot my motor came from craigslist the guy sells on eBay and he delivered it to me from Philly . Great deal brand new baldor still in the wrapping for $120.00. I was looking for days then it popped up on craigslist so I sent emails the rest is history.


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## Cal Haines (Mar 8, 2017)

I've recommended this kit to a number of people and they've been happy with it:
http://phaseconverterusa.com/5Hp-Rotary-phase-converter-kit-230vac_p_51.html​$77 with free shipping. You have to provide your own box.

And they have assembled 5HP RPC panels for $138, free shipping:
http://phaseconverterusa.com/5Hp-Rotary-phase-converter-control-panel-230vac_p_63.html​
(I have no association whatsoever with this outfit.)


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## Silverbullet (Mar 9, 2017)

Wish I'd have waited , this set up has everything . Oh well . Really tho I bought other things for machines I'm going to run. Enclosure boxes and fuse boxes on off manual contactor to start and run the planer . Even for my surface grinder I need fuse box. That's where the money goes that and two motors.


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## Paul_NJ (Mar 10, 2017)

Thanks for you suggestions guys.

I bounced over to the electrical forum for some specific RPC questions: thought I should link all this good talk together!

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/rpc-design-phase-making-sure-parts-will-fit.56835/


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