# Info and parts needed for logan 912 11" lathe



## eweissman (Jan 27, 2021)

recently acquired a logan 912 in pieces at an estate sale very cheaply.  was mostly complete and having assembled it, i am missing a few small pieces and a few bits of information.  The spindle seems to be missing two washers, part number LA-1016.  i believe they are cone shaped washers that help preload the back spindle bearing.  below is a link to a google photos album with a few pictures of the spindle.  can't seem to find them on the logan actuator site.  also not sure entirely how to remove spindle, though i can probably find some howto's on youtube.  i have the spindle gear and spacer and take up nut off already.  
spindle had a bit of play at rear spindle bearing which the take up nut did not seem to fix even when tightened.  
hopefully i can find some of these washers 
thanks
-eian

https://photos.app.goo.gl/zJTgA8uJWv2LNFPB8


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## Jim F (Jan 27, 2021)

Belleville Disc Washer Springs - Learn About | Lee Spring
					

Learn more about Lee Spring Belleville Washer Disc Springs. Belleville washers available in stock or custom.




					www.leespring.com
				












						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com


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## eweissman (Jan 28, 2021)

Jim F said:


> Belleville Disc Washer Springs - Learn About | Lee Spring
> 
> 
> Learn more about Lee Spring Belleville Washer Disc Springs. Belleville washers available in stock or custom.
> ...


I am aware that you can buy bellville washers, i just don’t know which of the varieties that are available are appropriate for this application.  There’s like ten different options for sale there, and i don’t have anything to compare to.


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## Nogoingback (Jan 28, 2021)

I would start by calling Logan and asking  if they can supply them.

On the 10" Logans, the nut on the back side of the spindle (gear train end) does not adjust the bearings: it simply 
locates them on the spindle.  There is no adjustment available.  I believe the 11" machines are the same.  The
"adjustment" comes from the preload inside the bearings.  Logan can clarify that for you as well.


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## eweissman (Jan 28, 2021)

Nogoingback said:


> I would start by calling Logan and asking  if they can supply them.
> 
> On the 10" Logans, the nut on the back side of the spindle (gear train end) does not adjust the bearings: it simply
> locates them on the spindle.  There is no adjustment available.  I believe the 11" machines are the same.  The
> "adjustment" comes from the preload inside the bearings.  Logan can clarify that for you as well.


This may be wrong information, but i think i read that the rear bearing on the 11” lathe is a sliding fit in the headstock casting and needs preload from the take up nut and Belleville washers.  But i am not certain of that.  Inquiries to the Official Logan e-mail group have been met with the reply “that will be $230 for four Belleville washers”.  And my further questioning was met with long  emails telling me i should just pay $230 for four Belleville washers and that i should be thankful that i can just buy four Belleville washers for $230.  I guess i missed the disclaimer telling me that their forum is just A grumpy advertising redirect for lathe.com. I emailed Logan directly and the only reply i got was an invoice for $230.  So not sure I’m really going to get the help there that i was hoping for.  Maybe i shouldn’t be asking the fox to help me repair the henhouse?  I didn’t think i was  out of line asking questions like that...?


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## Nogoingback (Jan 28, 2021)

What you seem to really need is to understand how the spindle goes together.  I would call Logan and speak with Scott
Logan to make sure that's clarified.  The other question I would want to answer is whether you have 
the correct bearings.  If the washers are missing, there may be other problems.  Scott is good about providing information
when it's needed: just avoid complaining about his parts prices...


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## eweissman (Jan 29, 2021)

there is a set on mcmaster carr, 55.5 mm id, 74.5 mm OD.  seems very close to the originals, they were $15 for four of them.  
will report back if they do the trick. thanks for the replies.  


600955.574.5


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## Shiseiji (Jan 30, 2021)

eweissman said:


> This may be wrong information, but i think i read that the rear bearing on the 11” lathe is a sliding fit in the headstock casting and needs preload from the take up nut and Belleville washers.  But i am not certain of that.  Inquiries to the Official Logan e-mail group have been met with the reply “that will be $230 for four Belleville washers”.  And my further questioning was met with long  emails telling me i should just pay $230 for four Belleville washers and that i should be thankful that i can just buy four Belleville washers for $230.  I guess i missed the disclaimer telling me that their forum is just A grumpy advertising redirect for lathe.com. I emailed Logan directly and the only reply i got was an invoice for $230.  So not sure I’m really going to get the help there that i was hoping for.  Maybe i shouldn’t be asking the fox to help me repair the henhouse?  I didn’t think i was  out of line asking questions like that...?


Some of the information on bearings and float was just covered on that form by Scott. But, IMHO, it is out of line to ask Scott for free information on products he sells. A business isn't obligated to provide you anything at a discount. We all make judgments on greed vs. "enlightened self interest." You believe you are owed the information you need for free. Scott believes he needs to sell it with a set of washers. Vote with your feet because you think he has crossed the line into greed and use the best information you can get at a cost that's acceptable to you. Too easy. In fact one member provided a link to an excellent source of free information on Bellevue washers.  Look at the drawing and it might be possible to determine the correct orientation. Then you can share what you learn. But there may be reasons others believe it's worth buying the information. Perhaps "lessons learned." 

Ron


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## eweissman (Jan 30, 2021)

Shiseiji said:


> Some of the information on bearings and float was just covered on that form by Scott. But, IMHO, it is out of line to ask Scott for free information on products he sells. A business isn't obligated to provide you anything at a discount. We all make judgments on greed vs. "enlightened self interest." You believe you are owed the information you need for free. Scott believes he needs to sell it with a set of washers. Vote with your feet because you think he has crossed the line into greed and use the best information you can get at a cost that's acceptable to you. Too easy. In fact one member provided a link to an excellent source of free information on Bellevue washers.  Look at the drawing and it might be possible to determine the correct orientation. Then you can share what you learn. But there may be reasons others believe it's worth buying the information. Perhaps "lessons learned."
> 
> Ron


I don’t think you are completely wrong, and i don’t really think they are trying to take advantage of me.  It was just confusing to get so much vitriol from them for asking a question.  I started very clearly that i intend to buy parts, but that i couldn’t afford those parts.  But i received a couple of long, condescending messages Explaining lengthily about how i clearly don’t understand how business works.  I don’t owe them my business, it just seemed like unduly angry response to a fairly innocent question.  Can you explain why it is justified to charge 1500% markup on a part that seems to usually cost $7.  Maybe there’s something im missing, maybe it really did cost them a Heck of a lot to commission a custom run of Belleville washers to exacting specs.   It was surprising, and so was the severity of the response.   I wrote what i wrote above in reaction to the multiple angry responses i got after asking a question on the forum, not because i am offended that Logan sells a service to customers.  You don’t really have all the context here.


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## eweissman (Jan 30, 2021)

Turns out the bellevill washers were there, but because they were installed backwards i couldn’t really see them well and they weren’t doing their job.  Took spindle apart, cleaned and reassembled correctly.  Seems to have taken the play out of the assembly.  Bearings actually felt pretty good.  Also drilled holes in the face of the take up nut so that i could tighten it with a pin Spanner.  Using a piece of a carpenters shim as a wedge to hold spindle in place while tightening was pretty effective.  The plastic carpenters shims i have have little serrations on the back that mesh well with the teeth of the bull gear.  Also a pic of my home made brackets to mount the motor counter shaft assembly.  Thanks for the info folks.


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## Shiseiji (Jan 31, 2021)

eweissman said:


> I don’t think you are completely wrong, and i don’t really think they are trying to take advantage of me.  It was just confusing to get so much vitriol from them for asking a question.  I started very clearly that i intend to buy parts, but that i couldn’t afford those parts.  But i received a couple of long, condescending messages Explaining lengthily about how i clearly don’t understand how business works.  I don’t owe them my business, it just seemed like unduly angry response to a fairly innocent question.  Can you explain why it is justified to charge 1500% markup on a part that seems to usually cost $7.  Maybe there’s something im missing, maybe it really did cost them a Heck of a lot to commission a custom run of Belleville washers to exacting specs.   It was surprising, and so was the severity of the response.   I wrote what i wrote above in reaction to the multiple angry responses i got after asking a question on the forum, not because i am offended that Logan sells a service to customers.  You don’t really have all the context here.


No, I can't justify it. And I honestly didn't read every post and am saddened if there was vitriol. I've been on forums since usenet, and sadly have learned that there people I'd rather just avoid. I'll share something I posted on that forum a while back. There is much we don't know. Always dangerous when we decide to judge others.  

EDIT: And you may simply been a victim not knowing you walked into a situation primed by a very recent discussion on spindle bearings and cost.  In part, very much by accident, *started by me* simply posting a link to a site with information on double row bearings I thought was explanatory about the 10" front bearings and perhaps some insight in why they cost what they do from Scott. *A posting I very much regret* though it was made in 100% innocence. No idea what kind of anthill I was kicking. But what's done is done. The topic is Logan Spindle Bearings  with *51* postings in just a few days.

We don't know if his are commercial off the shelf or special order.
We don't know if he purchased 10,000 as the smallest lot he could get at a price point he could afford for a special order.
We don't know what kind of bank note he carries to keep this in stock.
We don't know if he has held onto warehouse space to store the amount of stock he had to purchase
We don't know how many times he has had to move the stock from one site to another
We don't know how many times he's had to deal with upgrading inventory control systems to manage the stock, or at what cost.
So we have to assume that all of that is a simple "cost of doing business" and the profit "should" come from some other item. Like the bearings for the 10" that people have screamed about for decades because he wouldn't share the specifications. "They" all being disinterested parties in what their money is worth vs. Scott's money.  But that's the real point isn't it? Capitalism in a nut shell.

Much of inventory control has "gone away" in modern manufacturing in the move to just in time delivery. And that has it's own costs. 
So we assume he is trying to turn a 1500% markup but we really don't know a lot, if anything about his costs to keep the inventory on hand. And, to me, the very real danger that once it's gone, or Scott says "I'm retiring and my kids don't care about this little lathe side business." it will be gone. Why should he take his time to even scan and pay a web hosing site to maintain all the information he may have?  I have a Clausing 8511, it's a single handle wye axis 8520 with a factory BP M-Head. You should hear the screams over what Clausing charges for the parts they have. "But" if they don't have it they will, very kindly, send you a pdf of the original engineering drawings. But you won't get one for the stuff they are still selling.

I'm not qualified to judge what's selfish and what's enlightened self interest based on all the unknowns. Please see what Scott posted recently about bearings after it appears to me he just got fed up with the attacks on the prices he charges for those. His information is enlightening, including on the rear bearing of your 11".  I suspect if you could gleam an idea of what the preload is supposed to be based on the bearings then from that what washers are needed. How much is your time worth and the risk to the machine? If there is any risk? Darned if I know. I re-looked at the parts diagram. If it is to be believed, then the washers are installed concave to concave, or both convex sides "out". 

Nice job with the pictures, I'm sure they will benefit someone else in the future.

Caveat. I know I'm just another idiot with an opinion. So all of this is just opinion from a guy who saw two people close to him loose businesses for what I thought was a failure to see reality . . .  For what that's worth.

Ron


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## eweissman (Jan 31, 2021)

Shiseiji said:


> No, I can't justify it. And I honestly didn't read every post and am saddened if there was vitriol. I've been on forums since usenet, and sadly have learned that there people I'd rather just avoid. I'll share something I posted on that forum a while back. There is much we don't know. Always dangerous when we decide to judge others.
> 
> EDIT: And you may simply been a victim not knowing you walked into a situation primed by a very recent discussion on spindle bearings and cost.  In part, very much by accident, *started by me* simply posting a link to a site with information on double row bearings I thought was explanatory about the 10" front bearings and perhaps some insight in why they cost what they do from Scott. *A posting I very much regret* though it was made in 100% innocence. No idea what kind of anthill I was kicking. But what's done is done. The topic is Logan Spindle Bearings  with *51* postings in just a few days.
> 
> ...


And I’m sure part of the struggle for a guy like mr Logan is to both stay afloat and to not appear like he is price gouging.  I am actually sympathetic and i do understand how hard it is to run your own business, especially one that has to deal with a bunch of know it alls on the Internet second guessing everything.  It was also annoying to be the second guy ( or 120th?)  to step on the snake and Be the lucky one to get the venom.  It’s fine though, i think They’re all over it now.  And i did find the bellville washers in there and got it adjusted and it seems to be working a lot better.  Now i just need to find a decent 3 jaw Chuck for this thing.  Maybe you know more about this, but my south bend heavy ten came with a 3 jaw that is clearly original, and centers up nicely even though the register dia Of the back plate is a clearance fit to the spindle register.  Is it just that the threads are cut to a better tolerance and it centers up that way?  This Logan has a 2 1/4- 8tpi spindle too,  i have a lesser quality Chuck that fits from a Chinese lathe i used to have that i scrapped but it does not ever center up better than about .005 or .006
It was better on the Chinese lathe.  More like within 1-2 thou.  I don’t suppose there’s anything i can really do about this other than buying about back plate and cutting it on the lathe.  I’ve just never quite been able to sort out if it’s primarily the register dia that is supposed to locate the Chuck, as older American lathes with threaded spindle noses often seem to have back plates with large clearance..?


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## Nogoingback (Jan 31, 2021)

I think the vitriol stems from the fact that folks constantly gripe about Logan's parts prices and make assertions about "greed" and
price gouging without having the facts, or a sense of perspective.  I imagine Scott is getting tired of hearing it.

Scott is selling parts for machines which, in some cases are as much as 80 years old.  Try buying parts for Ford or a Chevy that was
build that long ago and see what your dealer has to say about it.   The quantities he's selling have to be pretty small as well, which
means that he has to buy things in small quantities to avoid carrying a bunch of inventory.   When I bought my 10" Logan a few
years ago, it needed a bunch of work: Scott supplied, with the exception of some castings, EVERY part I needed to get my machine
back in working order. This made the difference between a machine that now is capable of productive work, and a pile of scrap.

As far as the bearings go, the 10" machine has an odd ball bearing with no easy off the shelf solution.  Scott didn't design the thing,
so griping at him has a bit of the shoot-the-messanger kind of feel to it.  The cost of the bearings, which I bought, was a small
percentage of the total cost of my lathe and I don't regret buying them.  Good bearings are sort of important in lathes, I think.  

As far as his prices go, some of them do seem a bit high, but since we don't know what he pays, it's tough to judge and lets face
it, he does need to make a profit while putting up with customers that sometimes seem pretty ungrateful.  One of the reasons
I bought a Logan was because I knew that parts were available:  owners of lots of other old brands should be so lucky.  And,
if I'm honest with myself, this is a hobby, that strictly speaking isn't necessary at all and yet I've dumped a fair amount of $$$
into it, and I have a very modest shop.  Many folks around here have spent far more.  The cost of a few parts from Logan isn't
a big deal in the long run.


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## Nogoingback (Jan 31, 2021)

eweissman said:


> This may be wrong information, but i think i read that the rear bearing on the 11” lathe is a sliding fit in the headstock casting and needs preload from the take up nut and Belleville washers.  But i am not certain of that.




Looks like I was wrong about the 11" headstock by assuming it was like the 10" machine.  Sorry about that.  Learn something 
every day...


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## Shiseiji (Jan 31, 2021)

Been lots of discussions on this too. Here is my $.02 from what I've read and to me makes the most sense.  The "end " of the backing plate needs to seat on the flange of the spindle. This prevents the backing plate from "hanging" the chuck on the spindle. Now how do you know if the backing plate is off by .008 or if the chuck jaws are worn, or both?  1st try checking with the mating surfaces with a dye. You might get away with simple Sharpie. If you aren't getting good contact then it's lapping time to be sure you aren't hanging on the spindle threads. See what difference if any you have. If you are getting good contact, then I'd be inclined to distrust the chuck. 

A quick overview,  please do your own research! The general consensus appears to be to use a ring/"spider" around the jaws and tighten outward to grind them. Cover the ways etc. with aluminum foil and rags  to keep grit off the lathe.  A dremeI tool can be adapted to the tool post. Can't get inward pressure without using some part of the the untrustworthy jaws to press against and of course that part won't get ground. 

Ron



Ron


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