# Lapping lathe ways?



## harrzack

i have a LMS 3536 lathe I'd like to "tune up" a bit. I've seen You Tubes where some 500 grit in oil was brushed onto the ways, and the saddle slid back and forth to smooth/polish them.

Just wondering if this process would take off enough metal to screw up alignment.  Maybe make one side higher than the other...or whatever...

Wouldn't think so, but just checking.


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## darkzero

I would never try that myself. Could you link to some of those videos?


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## Ulma Doctor

NOOOOO!!!!! PLEASE DON"T!!!!!!!!!


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## Ulma Doctor

Hey harrzack, 
what kind of tuning up do you need?
do you have binding or uneven operation?


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## darkzero

This is one Doctor you SHOULD listen too!


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## Rustrp

darkzero said:


> I would never try that myself. Could you link to some of those videos?


I'm chuckling after reading the comments and whatever may be on the videos the answer is still NO!


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## darkzero

Rustrp said:


> I'm chuckling after reading the comments and whatever may be on the videos the answer is still NO!



Most definitely! But I still would like to see the videos posted on YT to see what is going on, why the people decided to do so, & their "result". OP stated YT in plural so does that mean more than one video & more than one person attempting this? Might be some good entertainment.


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## Ulma Doctor

a horrible horror film, not for the faint of spirit 
to be likened to such horror classics as Red Asphalt, Waterworld, and Kazzam


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## chips&more

That’s a terrible idea! That’s a good way to ruin your lathe! If you are new to running a lathe or at least the one you are mentioning. I would just run it, make some chips, have fun. And while you are using the lathe, you learn it’s capabilities and quirks, then “maybe” address those. But forget the lapping idea!


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## 4GSR

harrzack said:


> i have a LMS 3536 lathe I'd like to "tune up" a bit. I've seen You Tubes where some 500 grit in oil was brushed onto the ways, and the saddle slid back and forth to smooth/polish them................


The best thing you can do to make the ways look good as new is keep them wiped down and apply a good grade of machine oil to the ways.  And continuous wiping them down and oiling daily will keep them nice shiney.  My preference for oil on small lathes is a ISO 46 hydraulic oil, can be bought at any tractor supply in one gallon containers or many tool distributors offer Mobil brand of oils, too.  I do not recommend way oils for small lathes, they can and will cause more wear than if using good old grade of hydraulic oil.  This should apply to all lathes with harden beds and non-harden beds.  Exception, the way oil.  And I leave that for another discussion later.  Ken


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## harrzack

Thanks to all for the ideas. 
I found 2 of the vids that mentioned this, but will def dump the idea in favor of the hydraulic oil.


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## Uglydog

No on the lapping! Does it make sense why?

If something was dropped on the bed and it raised a burr.
You may need hone off the burr. The risk is that you dig a hole. Could end up with a situation wherein things are worse than when you started.
Best plan is to put a board down when mounting a chuck or loading heavy items into a chuck.

Daryl
MN


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## 4GSR

Adding to what Daryl said, gently hone out burrs dings with a soft flat oil stone.  Submerge the oilstone in mineral spirits and keep saturated while honing.  Removing any more material as into the bed is not recommended.  Just want to remove enough material to smooth out the ding or burrs.


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## ghostdncr

That's just funny.

When properly grinding and/or scraping a lathe bed, the high points are reduced to, or just below, the lowest point on the surface to achieve a flat plane. This plane is typically referenced against calibrated surface plates and camelbacks and other precision tools intended for this purpose. If you try lapping the ways using the carriage, you will only succeed in lowering the entire plane (factory "flat" or otherwise) more. Depending on the lapping compound used, yes, you could potentially remove enough material to throw things seriously out of whack. I can see how people may convince themselves this is a sound idea, but it most assuredly is not.


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## Doubleeboy

4gsr said:


> The best thing you can do to make the ways look good as new is keep them wiped down and apply a good grade of machine oil to the ways.  And continuous wiping them down and oiling daily will keep them nice shiney.  My preference for oil on small lathes is a ISO 46 hydraulic oil, can be bought at any tractor supply in one gallon containers or many tool distributors offer Mobil brand of oils, too.  I do not recommend way oils for small lathes, they can and will cause more wear than if using good old grade of hydraulic oil.  This should apply to all lathes with harden beds and non-harden beds.  Exception, the way oil.  And I leave that for another discussion later.  Ken



The first time I ran a lathe was 51 years ago, never in all this time have I heard of anyone suggest that way oil was bad for a machine.  I for one would be interested to hear about why WAY oil is bad for a lathe.  Everyone from Monarch to Grizzly recommends way oil for use on their lathes, what exactly is it that they do not understand?


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## Rustrp

Doubleeboy said:


> The first time I ran a lathe was 51 years ago, never in all this time have I heard of anyone suggest that way oil was bad for a machine.  I for one would be interested to hear about why WAY oil is bad for a lathe.  Everyone from Monarch to Grizzly recommends way oil for use on their lathes, what exactly is it that they do not understand?


I think the light oils, kerosene (paraffin), mineral spirits (paint thinner), or hydraulic fluid would be a first step process in cleaning up the lathe. It's easier to remove after it's suspended as much gunk as possible and most are less expensive than way oil. Otherwise, I'm interested also in the reasoning behind way oils being detrimental to the care for a lathe or any machine tool with ways.


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## Tozguy

Just an academic detail because we would never do it; lapping the ways with the carriage does not lower the ways evenly. Even if you run the carriage to full travel both ways (not being punny) the middle portion gets more lapping than the ends basically making a bad situation worse.

PS apparently Oil of Olay works good to rejuvenate stuff.


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## 4GSR

Doubleeboy said:


> The first time I ran a lathe was 51 years ago, never in all this time have I heard of anyone suggest that way oil was bad for a machine.  I for one would be interested to hear about why WAY oil is bad for a lathe.  Everyone from Monarch to Grizzly recommends way oil for use on their lathes, what exactly is it that they do not understand?


Go back and re-read my post.  I did not say way oil is bad to use.  I said, I don't like to use it on smaller lathes, like 9-10" and smaller, period. True, they have tackifiers that allow the oil to cling to the surface, but lack some of the additives that help fight corrosion and wear.  Yes, wear.  Why do they use hydraulic oils in hydraulic systems, they have the additives that help condition seals, reduce wear in cylinder components, valves, etc.  Maybe I'm not using the right brand of way oil?  But I can notice there is a difference in the use of the two oils in my shop.  And I've been doing this for over forty years, too.


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## Tozguy

Ken, I think the Russians might be fooling with your posts.


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## Rustrp

4gsr said:


> I do not recommend way oils for small lathes, they can and will cause more wear than if using good old grade of hydraulic oil.



I did read your comment and I'm guessing if you've been doing this for forty years you are not a hobbyist. Taking anecdotal data and creating emphatic reasoning can be confusing to the beginner. How does a manuafacturer's way oil recommendation wear out the ways? I know this is a long way from oil soaked 500 grit under the saddle which no manufacturer would recommend. What tasks a person may perform on a lathe plays a part in all this. e.g. How often a person uses a file and how they use it, or how often does a person use emery cloth to take off the last .0005'.  One important fact is how often you wipe down the ways, and another is how often do you apply the hydraulic fluid. 

The apprentice says to me; Hey, cut me some slack, I'm just a beginner. I say; Okay, I can go with that, but tell me why you ignore my specific instructions? So I'm asking the question based on what the beginner needs to know. They already think my way isn't in a textbook and it's just something I've been doing for years, but that's because they never read the book. -Russ


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## 4GSR

Rustrp,

The ways on my machines are so clean, you could eat off of them!

Yes, I keep them wiped down and oiled before and after use.

Like I said, I have no problem using way oil on larger lathes, just don't recommend it for smaller lathes like 9" or 10" lathes and smaller.

Ken

Edit: Rustrp, I appreciate your opinion, but your not the only one out there that has opinion over the subject. And this is everyone's right to voice their opinion on H-M. Let's not go off on the deep end with this.  Ken


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## Hal H

Harrzack

Lapping the lathe bed is a very bad idea.  Like someone said if you have dings in the ways on the lathe bed.  Use a sharpening stone and hand stone the high spots down flush with the flat surfaces of the ways.
After stoning clean up the area and remove ALL the grit and grime.

rg4s

I not from Missouri ( the show me state), and you may well be right, but I would have to see a side by side test to prove to me before I'll switch to hydraulic oil on my 10EE.

Hal


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## darkzero

Fellas, let's just agree to to disagree. Everyone has their own views on things, either based on whats logical or what works best for them in past experience. Nothing wrong with being different, the world would be so boring & non-innovative if were all thought or did the same.

Back on track, I couldn't wait for the OP to link the videos anymore. I was curious what the reasoning was. Here's a couple of videos that I found on YT as well as a page where the idea seemed to have came from? Crazy ideas always come from the mini lathe guys, nothing wrong with that as they have came up with some great ideas on things but not always the best thing to do like this crazy lapping idea.

Nothing against the mini-lathe site as it's a great resource, but really, metal polish?

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Lapping/mt_lap.htm


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## The Liberal Arts Garage

It is an understandable temptation in making the ways " shiny" . Any long 
used lathe has hills and dales  on the ways. For the most part, they are in
Themselves harmless; if you grind or scrape them "pretty" you  will have
to lower every thing else to match center heights? Tell me I'm wrong.......
BLJHB "


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## Tozguy

4gsr said:


> Like I said, I have no problem using way oil on larger lathes, just don't recommend it for smaller lathes like 9" or 10" lathes and smaller.
> 
> Ken
> 
> Edit: Rustrp, I appreciate your opinion, but your not the only one out there that has opinion over the subject. And this is everyone's right to voice their opinion on H-M. Let's not go off on the deep end with this.  Ken



To me its not just about different opinions but also about what they are based on. So Ken, any explanation of why smaller lathes are different than larger ones when it comes to way oil would be appreciated. Its not enough for me to know what to do, I also want to know why I'm doing it. 
As a novice I look up to you and several others here for guidance but your statement threw me for a loop. Hopefully I won't land in the deep end.


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## Rustrp

Tozguy said:


> To me its not just about different opinions but also about what they are based on. So Ken, any explanation of why smaller lathes are different than larger ones when it comes to way oil would be appreciated. Its not enough for me to know what to do, I also want to know why I'm doing it.
> As a novice I look up to you and several others here for guidance but your statement threw me for a loop. Hopefully I won't land in the deep end.


I replied to this yesterday and my post disappeared, and I'm not sure why. I questioned the comment. I know when I'm reading opinion, along with instructions with the connotations of do it because I said so.

In essence my question was how do I take this from the classroom and apply it in the lab, the shop? The alternate is to ignore what is stated because it's just opinion.


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## rbjscott

In 50 years of working in and running a machine shop ---never ever seen or been a part of lapping ways of a lathe.


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## burdickjp

What should mini lathe owners do, then, to correct for the cheap Manufacturing of their beds?


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## 3strucking

burdickjp said:


> What should mini lathe owners do, then, to correct for the cheap Manufacturing of their beds?[/QUOTE
> 
> I would buy a better lathe.


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## burdickjp

Do you have a suggestion for a better METRIC lathe?
I have had trouble finding a comparable lathe which is metric.


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## HMF

This is a good thread, let's just keep it factual, rather than personal. If you guys disagree, that's cool, but let's leave out the ethnic stuff.  I just want to make sure that there aren't any hard feelings.


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## samthedog

Rustrp said:


> I did read your comment and I'm guessing if you've been doing this for forty years you are not a hobbyist. Taking anecdotal data and creating emphatic reasoning can be confusing to the beginner. How does a manuafacturer's way oil recommendation wear out the ways? I know this is a long way from oil soaked 500 grit under the saddle which no manufacturer would recommend. What tasks a person may perform on a lathe plays a part in all this. e.g. How often a person uses a file and how they use it, or how often does a person use emery cloth to take off the last .0005'.  One important fact is how often you wipe down the ways, and another is how often do you apply the hydraulic fluid.
> 
> The apprentice says to me; Hey, cut me some slack, I'm just a beginner. I say; Okay, I can go with that, but tell me why you ignore my specific instructions? So I'm asking the question based on what the beginner needs to know. They already think my way isn't in a textbook and it's just something I've been doing for years, but that's because they never read the book. -Russ



Any oil is better than no oil at all and if I am machining cast iron, I use hydraulic oil instead of way oil as way oil is very tacky and does not flow away from the way wipers as well as hydraulic oil. I don't know if this results in grit under the wipers but I do notice thinner oil washing the dust away from the wipers.

This video here is very interesting:






I used mineral engine oil for years and did not notice any major wear. I figured the oil was cheap so I used lots of it. The more expensive the oil, the more stingy we tend to be with application.

Paul.


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## Rustrp

burdickjp said:


> Do you have a suggestion for a better METRIC lathe?
> I have had trouble finding a comparable lathe which is metric.


I understand you asking this as a better metric lathe when referring to Asian imports. There are quality metric imports from Europe.


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## burdickjp

Rustrp said:


> I understand you asking this as a better metric lathe when referring to Asian imports. There are quality metric imports from Europe.


There are. I've yet to find one which is priced accessibly to a college student. That's where I was when I bought my mini lathe, and that was the point I was trying to make.
If a mini lathe owner had access to the tools necessary to grind or scrape the ways then they wouldn't necessarily be in the market for a mini lathe, would they?
I tore mine apart, cleaned it, adjusted what I could, and it was still behaving inconsistently. I lapped it and it behaved much better.

I don't think anyone is portraying the need to do this as being a GOOD thing, or that this is a GOOD fix. It's a corner condition and should be treated as such.


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## burdickjp

harrzack said:


> i have a LMS 3536 lathe I'd like to "tune up" a bit. I've seen You Tubes where some 500 grit in oil was brushed onto the ways, and the saddle slid back and forth to smooth/polish them.
> 
> Just wondering if this process would take off enough metal to screw up alignment.  Maybe make one side higher than the other...or whatever...
> 
> Wouldn't think so, but just checking.


I'm not sure how different the 3536 is compared to the 7x mini lathes I'm familiar with. Can you take a picture of the cross slide saddle straps, the gibs, and the dovetails?
The saddle straps on my 7x were not at all straight, square, flat, or smooth. The gibs were similarly rough.
Put some effort into those and see how it behaves. Put as much effort into those as you can before taking anything abrasive to your bed.


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## harrzack

The 3536 is an 8.5" x 16" lathe - a bit more substantial (but still kinda a 'kit lathe')   I did a lot of that tuning when I got it and may do more.
Here is a link to a post I made about machining a rib from the saddle - will give you a rough idea of the size.

http://bit.ly/2p1793V

Also check out my website (http://www.avrdev.net) as I show a number of views of the lathe.


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## Rustrp

burdickjp said:


> There are. I've yet to find one which is priced accessibly to a college student.


Understood, and price is relative to just about everything. If it just happens to be that someone fell into a good deal on a quality lathe you say good for them, otherwise quality and price are relative. The same applies to the big lathes or any piece of metal working equipment.


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## burdickjp

harrzack said:


> The 3536 is an 8.5" x 16" lathe - a bit more substantial (but still kinda a 'kit lathe')   I did a lot of that tuning when I got it and may do more.
> Here is a link to a post I made about machining a rib from the saddle - will give you a rough idea of the size.
> 
> http://bit.ly/2p1793V
> 
> Also check out my website (http://www.avrdev.net) as I show a number of views of the lathe.


It looks like the saddle gibs design is the same as the 7x lathes.
Are you noticing thr saddle being tighter in some parts of the bed than others?


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## Rustrp

samthedog said:


> I used mineral engine oil for years and did not notice any major wear. I figured the oil was cheap so I used lots of it. The more expensive the oil, the more stingy we tend to be with application.


The only thing about this conversation that I'm having a hard time coming to grips with is this "I do not recommend way oils for small lathes, they can and will cause more wear than if using good old grade of hydraulic oil." and all it takes to clear it up is explain why.

I have a fair amount of knowledge on or in lubricants (no it's not my career field) but if you present hydraulic fluid/liquid as the lubrication medium do you mean the standard old pink we use in a Boeing B-52 and John Deere (older models) or the clear stuff that will burn your skin that we put in the T-43 (Boeing 737)? Water can be used as a hydraulic liquid too but I'm thinking that's not what is intended. 

At the center and core of this discussion is how a person cares for the piece of machinery they are using. If you wipe the ways, use good practices for keeping them clean, follow the do's and don'ts, then the possibility of claiming one form of lubricant over another is minimalized. If a person doesn't have emphirical data to support their claim then it's no more important than someone with no knowledge on the topic. We go to great lengths in discussing the how to's of arriving at .0005" yet disregard lubricant engineering because we're too stingy/cheap to purchase a quality product. If you take an ounce of cast iron chips and dust and mix them in a quart of hydraulic fluid, then do the same with a quart of way oil, which lubricant suspends the chips the longest?


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## samthedog

Rustrp said:


> At the center and core of this discussion is how a person cares for the piece of machinery they are using. If you wipe the ways, use good practices for keeping them clean, follow the do's and don'ts, then the possibility of claiming one form of lubricant over another is minimalized. If a person doesn't have emphirical data to support their claim then it's no more important than someone with no knowledge on the topic. We go to great lengths in discussing the how to's of arriving at .0005" yet disregard lubricant engineering because we're too stingy/cheap to purchase a quality product. If you take an ounce of cast iron chips and dust and mix them in a quart of hydraulic fluid, then do the same with a quart of way oil, which lubricant suspends the chips the longest?



Sorry, I should have specified hydraulic oil - not MEG as used in subsea oil and gas hydraulic systems. I have no dog in this fight as I use both way oil and hydraulic oil. I also have done a great deal of reserach on oils as I have had to make conversion charts for my machines from the 60's and early 70's to replace obsolete oils. My only point is that I find the bead that builds up in front of my rubber way wipers from hydraulic oil tends to displace the chips and dust as it's less tacky. This is anecdotal and at the end of the day, if the way wipers are doing their job this probably does not even matter. 

No doubt the technology in lubrication is advancing each year but given the amount most of us use our machines we probably couldn't wear out our machines with the cheapest dollar store oils.

Paul.


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## 3strucking

If you have to have a mini lathe then I don't know what to tell you. My lathe will do metric but it isn't a mini lathe, it's a 13x30 and weighs 2300 lbs, and it is the smallest lathe that I would consider owning.


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## kd4gij

Taig is a micro lathe with a flat bead. It comes as a kit or assembled.  For the kit the bed needs to be lapped in. That is where the idea came from in the first place.

http://www.cartertools.com/setup.html


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## Tozguy

burdickjp said:


> What should mini lathe owners do, then, to correct for the cheap Manufacturing of their beds?



Not sure what you mean by cheap manufacturing of a bed is but if a certain lathe is not manufactured to meet your requirements then keep looking. The bed is the heart of a lathe and if the bed needs improvement then everything else on it probably does too. For that reason correcting a new bed is not a routine upgrade that I know of.



burdickjp said:


> Do you have a suggestion for a better METRIC lathe?
> I have had trouble finding a comparable lathe which is metric.



If you would elaborate on what you are looking for it might bring you some suggestions.


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## Highsider

Lapping like this will turn your carriage into a rocking chair on the bed ways.   Not what you want to accomplish


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## NortonDommi

Has anyone heard of scrapping to remove burrs ect? Also as to why hydraulic systems use hydraulic oil it is because most are 'straight' weight oils also why proper operators ALWAYS warm up their machines before use and yes they do have additives quite different from automotive oils mostly additives to entrain water as globulets so it will get caught in the filters or settle out in the header tank. It also has some detergent additives.
  Any oil is better than none and hydraulic oil is better than auto oil for machinery BUT WAY OIL is specifically designed for machinery with adhesive properties, it is hydrophobic, can take load like a gear oil and most are also anti-corrosive.
  The only reason I can see for using hydraulic oil is 1: having it on hand. 2: wanting a low viscosity oil.
  As to why you rarely see corrosion in hydraulic systems, as stated water is entrained in globular form and  if left to stand will settle to bottom of header tank with sludge AND if system is maintained properly oil will be checked and changed regularly aside from topups due to leakage.
  I've had a few years of looking after heavy plant,(earthmoving) and every oil is designed for a particular purpose.


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## Doubleeboy

kd4gij said:


> Taig is a micro lathe with a flat bead. It comes as a kit or assembled.  For the kit the bed needs to be lapped in. That is where the idea came from in the first place.
> 
> http://www.cartertools.com/setup.html



Nick Carter is a pretty smart guy.  Met him years ago at PRIME and we talked at length.  I don't own a Taig, have not spent any time using one, but if Nick says a certain protocol is required to get one to operate well, I would trust him.  There are a number of people who have used Taig components to build there own mills and lathes and do fine work with them.  Jose Rodriguez comes to mind.  I have seen a Taig at a watchmakers shop, the owner stated he was very happy with its performance.


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## kd4gij

That was going to be my first lathe about 29 years ago. But lathe was going to be a secondary use for it.  I was big into fishing at the time and wanted to rebuild a couple of old solid fiberglass fishing rods and that lathe was popular for turning rods to wrap the eyes. I had download the manual for the kit witch talked about lapping it. And Taig had a link to nick's page. Before I pulled the trigger I ran across the 12 craftsman lathe I have now.


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## phlodel

harrzack said:


> i have a LMS 3536 lathe I'd like to "tune up" a bit. I've seen You Tubes where some 500 grit in oil was brushed onto the ways, and the saddle slid back and forth to smooth/polish them.
> 
> Just wondering if this process would take off enough metal to screw up alignment.  Maybe make one side higher than the other...or whatever...
> 
> Wouldn't think so, but just checking.


I think the lapping idea comes from the Chinese Seig mini lathes that are so commonly available under many brand names (Grizzly, Micro Lux, Harbor Freight, etc). It is my understanding that they can be so rough that they are almost impossible to use. People have resorted to lapping the sliding parts so they will move smoothly enough to work with. Use and wear would acomplish the same thing but it's difficult to use a mavhine that is to sticky to mve smoothly. I have a Harbor Freight mini mill that was so rough it would barely move if adjusted tight enough to cut without terrible chatter. I am ashamed to admit I lapped the table ways a little. It made the machine workable. I would never lap a machine that is working. It amounts to greatly accelerated wear.


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## Tozguy

When lapping advantages outweigh the disadvantages then I would lap the ways too.
But only with the head stock and everything else removed so that the whole length can be lapped. Then only enough to break in new surfaces for a better feel. I would not lap to correct for lack of flatness or straightness using the carriage.


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## Rustrp

NortonDommi said:


> Has anyone heard of scrapping to remove burrs ect?


Actually the lathe being discussed and what is needed seems to be a perfect scraping project. I think the major roadblock here is technical knowledge aligned with vocational application. 

-Russ


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