# Need some milling machine info



## killswitch505 (May 29, 2017)

so....... I traded my Harley for a mill and lathe. I've had a lot  success with my lathe not so much with my mill.... I'm basically using it as a big drill press. What books do y'all  recommend? The mill seems frustrating I want to make gun smithing jigs but I find I've gotta make jigs to make jigs to mak jigs to make jigs. From what I'm seeing I'll be money a head if I install a dro but damn 800 bucks buys a lot of tooling seems to me if I'm wanting to drill 4 holes in a row I'm gonna need a dro.


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## Silverbullet (May 29, 2017)

Do you do any lay out , or just do it. You can use indicators to get positions , edge finder to center up or locate a starting point . I'm old school and do layouts on the piece using dykem and squares and scribed, center punch hole marks. Set stops and use measuring blocks as spacers for hole set ups.
Watch some YouTube of Mr Pete , but he even uses the dro  now, but he does use layout lines with red dykem to show how. There are some basic methods taught on there to by others .
Oh you can get China dro for around $280.00 for x y z three reader heads .


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## British Steel (May 29, 2017)

Hi KS,
What SB said, careful layout and remember to always approach the positions in the same direction to allow for backlash if you're measuring using the dials - second nature on the lathe, but stumped me when I first got on a mill! For aligning with scribed and / or punched locations, a "sticky pin" or centre finder really helps, or if you're keen there are centring microscopes that fit on a stub into a collet (mine's by Moore Precision Tools, made in Japan, has a graticle with cross-hairs and concentric 0.001" circles - the idea should be familiar to any gun nut using similar!).

I've managed without a DRO so far, with careful layout and a keen eye, but I'm considering one for the new (to me) mill, it's 50+ years old and has some wear on leadscrews etc. - the Chinese ones work ok if they make it through the first month  or three, and they're available with more accurate scales (to 0.001mm, a little less than half a tenth) For a Few Dollars More*... Also they have Useful Functions, like bolt circles, tool offsets, edge rounding etc. which can make life easier 

Dave H. (the other one)

* Ding ding-a-ding ding-a-ding ding-a-ding diing


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## killswitch505 (May 29, 2017)

Silverbullet , so far I'm just kinda doing it but I've not done much just making whatever I need to do work. I sucks having a machine that's capable of doing to much. Being an electrician I've probably hooked up or worked on no less than 15 Half a million dollar plus CNC machines I can say I've met a bunch of machinists all are more or less just geared to their type of work mainly CNC. There is a local guy that's supposed to be a mill guru I'm trying to get some time with the guy. I work a super crazy job it's going to be tough to find time with the guy. As soon as I respond to this post I will check out Mr. Pete. I'll also check out China Dro. And see what I can find. Thank you for the reply. 

 Britishsteel, I'm going to order a set of collets today and I'm looking a Coaxial center finder that shars has for around 100 bucks. Also I need to get some squares to help with layout. Thank you for the reply


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## British Steel (May 29, 2017)

The  Centring scope looks like this (excuse the poor pics):







I tried to get a pic of the graticle, but my 'phone camera isn't up to the task! The one propping the 'scope up isn't up to anything 

The grey section takes a spigot that goes into either a collet or the mill spindle, peer down the 'scope (which rotates with the spindle) while rotating the spindle and adjust the two silver knobs to get the graticle centred, then move mill table to centre on the feature you want to pick up. Quick, easy and accurate
I just looked on EvilBay, I was surprised how expensive they are... Mine came out of the skip at work 

Coax centre finders (Indicators, e.g. the Blake or copies) are good (one's on my list) BUT they're really only good at picking up the centre of an existing feature (a bore, spigot or boss, f'rinstance) and not that useful when starting from scratch and needing to locate centres to drill etc.

Dave H. (the other one)


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## killswitch505 (Jun 2, 2017)

British Steel, I will most definitely check this out thanks again man once work settles down a bit I will probably be PM'ing you.


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## jbolt (Jun 3, 2017)

I think of a DRO as a precision measuring tool. I cut my teeth is the early 80's counting turns and using indicators. I'll take a DRO any day. 

I put quality where I think it needs it. My lathe has a higher quality DRO because this is where I do most of my high precision work. 

I have a heavy duty drill press that doubles as a light duty mill. This has a Chinese DRO on it. I must say the inexpensive DRO's have come a long way over the years.


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## Eddyde (Jun 3, 2017)

I agree with all above, to put it in my own words though;
1 A DRO while not an absolute necessity, is very helpful and for less than $400 for a quality Chinese unit, a no brainier imho. However, in order to fully know your machine you should learn how to position by counting turns and compensate for backlash, you'll also gain appreciation of what the DRO can do for you.
2 YouTube videos: Mr. Pete, Don Bailey Suburban tool and the MIT series on milling machines, are a great start.
3 The coax is nice but you can do with a wiggler and edge finder set for a lot less money, you should have and know how to use these anyway.
4 Layout is always good to do, especially when learning, it gives visual assurance and helps prevent errors.


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## DaveD (Jun 3, 2017)

What kind of mill do you have?
What kind of vise is currently on it?
What other 'tooling' do you have for the mill?
I have a RF-45 clone, cost about $2k and in the last 5 years I have probably sunk another $2k into 'tooling' for it. Everybody seems to say your tooling expense will at least equal the machine cost. I can vouch for that.
Good vise
DRO PROS 3 axis dro
Horizontal power feed
Angle blocks
Collets
Fly cutters
Slitting saws and arbors
Crap load of cutting bits
Center finder
Angle gauges
Clamping set
123 blocks
Vise parallels, several sets/thicknesses
Small machine jacks 
Etc.

Later you can get into indexers and rotary tables, coolant misters, etc.

Then there are all kinds of measuring devices. My go to are my 6" digital calipers

I have a laser centering device, just like a laser pointer, that I use to find centers/edges. Fits in a ⅜" collet. Cost about $100. Supposedly accurate to 1/1000" or better. 

It all depends on the accuracy you want and how big/small your parts are.
I get most of my new tooling from places like Shars and a lot of stuff from EBay. There is so much stuff on EBay that it takes some time to understand how to find what you want at the best price vs cost.

Good luck in your pursuit. Just keep asking questions. YouTube has all kinds of stuff. I tend to watch professionals because I want to learn technique rather than something part specific.


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## bob308 (Jun 3, 2017)

when I was learning the tool making trade. we made all of our own tooling parallels.123 blocks. even our own boring bars. I made my own screw less vise .
I am teaching friend to run a mill. I have him making his own tooling and fixtures.

dro I have one mill a enco 8x42 with it on it is my big shop 25 mi. from home. at home I have a clausing 8520. that gets used the most. on that mill I have a b&s number 21 vise.
I do not have a dro on my horizontal mill or any of my lathes or my surface grinder.


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## 4ssss (Jun 3, 2017)

There was a time when there were no DRO's and things were made just as precise as with one. If you start at an edge, and go to the center of 1 hole, and keep your dials  turning in the same direction (clockwise), don't zero out the dial every time you punch a hole, and don't crank the dial in reverse without taking out the backlash if you pass your number, you can save yourself some money and be part of the old school that were taught that way.


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## Rustrp (Jun 3, 2017)

This is Part 1 of a 2 part series. There's lots of good info especially on using different tools to setup work. Of course there's plenty of other sources too. On the advise of many here, be patient with your tool buying. It will take a while to determine what you need and what you don't. Of course if you've just kicked one addiction and looking for another outlet to spend $$$$ you found the right home. Spree away.


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## Rockytime (Jun 3, 2017)

killswitch505 said:


> so....... I traded my Harley for a mill and lathe. <SNIP>
> 
> Bad trade.


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## wrmiller (Jun 3, 2017)

You should use (insert Old School/dinosaur mechanism here) so you can appreciate something more modern. Sheesh...really? Where does this stuff come from?

So I should write a novel using stone tablets and chisels so I can truly appreciate a pencil and paper? Or I should go ride a horse so I can appreciate my car? Nonsense. I stopped using a slide rule in school a very long time ago and having once used one does not make me appreciate my computer or calculator more. 

I can appreciate that these and other old school mechanisms are cherished by some. But not me. I like my modern tools and methods. If the Old Ways are so great, why aren't modern machine shops using these methods and tools? Rhetorical question.

 For example, except for a special profile tool once, I have zero use for HSS tools. Nada. Zilch. There are folks here that would disagree, and that's OK. For them. But not me. And don't preach to me about how in your opinion I should learn how to use them. Anyway, (bill getting off his soapbox...) 

Dro's are useful from a productivity standpoint if nothing else. But nothing is perfect. I can (and have) screwed up parts with and without a DRO. Now for those who for whatever reason don't have access to one, then of course other methods need to be learned and used. Just don't try to tell me how much better they are. I know better.


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## 4ssss (Jun 4, 2017)

wrmiller said:


> You should use (insert Old School/dinosaur mechanism here) so you can appreciate something more modern. Sheesh...really? Where does this stuff come from?



If you don't know how to use a dial, you don't know how to use the machine.


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## wrmiller (Jun 4, 2017)

4ssss said:


> If you don't know how to use a dial, you don't know how to use the machine.



Well Sir, that's one opinion.


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## Eddyde (Jun 4, 2017)

wrmiller said:


> You should use (insert Old School/dinosaur mechanism here) so you can appreciate something more modern. Sheesh...really? Where does this stuff come from?



It comes from the fact that if one doesn't fully understand the machine, they can never master it. Don't get me wrong, I love my DRO and wouldn't want to be without it but so far, I have spent most of my machine time turning dials so I really know and appreciate how much time and hassle the DRO saves me and if it should ever fail, I won't be stuck trying to figure out how to operate the machine without it. 
Another example, I do a fair amount of backwoods camping, while I do have a GPS I also carry and know how to navigate by map and compass, I'm not gonna die with the batteries. And when I get home after a long camping trip, I really do find new appreciation for things like electricity, hot and cold running water, refrigeration etc.
It's always smart to have a plan B.


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## Rustrp (Jun 4, 2017)

wrmiller said:


> Well Sir, that's one opinion.


Maybe so but it's a good one. How do you know your DRO is accurate? How many times do you check your DRO? 

You have used the dials and know how to use them and for this reason you put your trust in the DRO. If you were never allowed to use the dials and only knew DRO methods you would be lost? Perception is what you know today or knew when you used the slide rule, but education changed this. Some opinions are misguided perceptions based on lack of education.  Education is the force that constantly changes perceptions and opinions. 

A piece of swarf on the dial isn't going to change the accuracy of  x or y but the same isn't true if the swarf is on the scale of your DRO.


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## 4ssss (Jun 4, 2017)

wrmiller said:


> Well Sir, that's one opinion.




Yes It is, just as this one is yours. And I do know what that is.


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## Ulma Doctor (Jun 4, 2017)

Hey KillSwitch!
Trading a Harley for a Mill & Lathe???? it must be one heck of a lathe & mill combo!
I, for one, would like to see some pictures 
as far as some reading materials...
Machinery's Handbook (the machinist's bible)
Audel's Machinists Handbook
American Machinists Handbook (Colvin & Stanley)
Starrett's Book for Student Machinists
South Bend Lathes' -How to Run A Lathe
Machine Shop Theory and Practice- Ford Motor Co.

if you like machine shop videos,

https://www.youtube.com/user/THATLAZYMACHINIST
Marc is a very good instructor, i enjoy his videos very much.

Joe Pieczynski is very knowledgeable- i enjoy his channel very much.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpp6lgdc_XO_FZYJppaFa5w

Randy Richards is very good too, and he's a real genuine good man to boot!
https://www.youtube.com/user/Catfish6945/videos


i hope you have fun exploring the new world that has just opened to you


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## wrmiller (Jun 4, 2017)

Rustrp said:


> Maybe so but it's a good one. How do you know your DRO is accurate? How many times do you check your DRO?
> 
> You have used the dials and know how to use them and for this reason you put your trust in the DRO. If you were never allowed to use the dials and only knew DRO methods you would be lost? Perception is what you know today or knew when you used the slide rule, but education changed this. Some opinions are misguided perceptions based on lack of education.  Education is the force that constantly changes perceptions and opinions.
> 
> A piece of swarf on the dial isn't going to change the accuracy of  x or y but the same isn't true if the swarf is on the scale of your DRO.



I used gauge blocks to test the accuracy of my magnetic scales after installation. I've never even looked at the dials on my 935 to be honest with you. And so far (knock on wood...) I've had zero issues with swarf.

I'm not going to trust the tolerance stackup of a stamped dial+shaft+nut+leadscrew interface to gauge absolute position or a translation along an axis. But that's just me. Without the DRO and scales, I've used dial indicators and other mechanical measurement methods to give some level of accuracy to my work. The scales also give me both absolute positional data from a measured/known reference as well as translation along a axis, without all the jury-rigging necessary to use other contrivances. Seems to have worked well so far for what I do.

True, I learned to machine counting dials, and you have a valid point about perceptions. But having used dials doesn't give me trust in my scales. Hardly. I don't trust anything, and measure to make sure. But, measurements are only as accurate as the device taking the measurement so that must be taken into account as well.


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## mksj (Jun 4, 2017)

I am with Bill on this one, a DRO just makes life easier and I do not loose count of the turns.  Still, when installing the DRO, you need to use the machine in manual mode to make parts. Just did this with my mill. A DRO scale does not loose accuracy, it may fail or loose a reference point, so nothing is 100%. But installed correctly, they sure make life easier, especially as your eyesight tends to go. I focus on what the machine is doing, and am thankful I do not need to read the dials (for the most part). I check the accuracy of the scales after the install, that it tracks against my dial gauge and 123 blocks so you know that the scale resolution is set correctly, that's it unless something isn't working out size wise. Do not think that the mechanical leadscrews and dials are the last word on accuracy either, my last mill would loose 0.0003" per revolution (0.1") because they used metric leadscrews with inch dials. This required a DRO, and that was the only thing I used for years with never a glitch. The other factor is that you can get a very decent DRO for much less than years past, something in the $300-600 range.

Lets say you want to drill 4 holes in some pattern with your mill, factor in the time it takes you to do the layout, set up your position and then figure out the travel increments on the dials. Then repeat the process with a DRO,  touch off and zero you coordinates on the screen and then just use increment setting for hole to hole or layout the pattern on the DRO screen and you are off and running in under a minute. Maybe with a lot of time and practice I might get close to the DRO accuracy, but when I am line boring sequential holes that have to be within 0.001" it is much harder doing it with dials.

I would ask the post originator as to what are the problems he is having using the mill, and then we may be able to provide some more specific recommendations.


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