# Cnc noob



## Livnpaintball (Aug 26, 2019)

Decided I need to get a cnc milling machine in the garage to speed things up. After looking online and finding soo many freaking vendors for the steppers, controller, ect., are there any particular ones to look OR avoid? My original plan was to buy a Shapeoko and a PM 25 and convert to CNC but I may build a small one from parts and the PM25 CNC.  All help and guidance appreciated!

Also, how many people use coolant, or constant air at the cutting surface? Is there a  rule of thumb for this?


----------



## johneezreno (Aug 26, 2019)

My opinion. For the cost to build you can buy used. I put a Brother and a Hitachi Seiki in my garage delivered for 10 grand. My next purchase will cost hopefully only double. Just make sure no matter the machine, it should run off of G-Code.
And yes, I use coolant and compressed air all the time. So an enclosed machine definitely helps keep the area clean.
Good Luck

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## JimDawson (Aug 26, 2019)

Stepper/servo vendors of choice are:
Automation Technologies https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/
ClearPath https://www.teknic.com/products/clearpath-brushless-dc-servo-motors/
DMM Technologies  https://store.dmm-tech.com/
Automation Direct https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/motion_control

Automation Direct has everything needed to build a control panel and is my go to vendor for electrical hardware.
I have personally purchased hardware from all of the above.

Controller System
Centroid Acorn https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_diy/acorn_cnc_controller.html

This seems to be a good control system, but no personal experience with them but have heard good things.

For ball screws
THK,  McMaster-Carr and other vendors
Thomson, Motion Industries and other vendors
Lots of Chinese stuff available also on Ebay or VXB bearings.


----------



## Livnpaintball (Aug 26, 2019)

johneezreno said:


> My opinion. For the cost to build you can buy used. I put a Brother and a Hitachi Seiki in my garage delivered for 10 grand. My next purchase will cost hopefully only double. Just make sure no matter the machine, it should run off of G-Code.
> And yes, I use coolant and compressed air all the time. So an enclosed machine definitely helps keep the area clean.
> Good Luck
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



I should have used a better term than garage, I have very limited space for this equipment, my two car garage is almost full and the wife doesn’t want big equipment in there. Most of my stuff is moveable except for the lathe and PM727.
Thanks for the advice, I will have to see if I can find any local deals on used stuff.


----------



## Livnpaintball (Aug 26, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> Stepper/servo vendors of choice are:
> Automation Technologies https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/
> ClearPath https://www.teknic.com/products/clearpath-brushless-dc-servo-motors/
> DMM Technologies  https://store.dmm-tech.com/
> ...


Awesome stuff! Thanks for the links, like I said there is soo much stuff on the web it’s hard to tell what is actually junk or good stuff.


----------



## coherent (Aug 27, 2019)

I've used Automation Technologies  as listed above for stepper motors, kits and some other parts and have been very pleased with everything I received from them. Hard to beat their prices.

For driver boards, breakout boards etc, my go to retailer online is CNC4PC A good alternative to Mach is UCCNC and their drivers.





						Welcome to CNC4PC
					






					cnc4pc.com
				




If you build your own, you not only save money, but most of the parts retailers will provide support and a parts warranty . In addition you'll know and understand your machine and how everything operates much better.  I personally get as much enjoyment out of the builds as using the machines.


----------



## Livnpaintball (Aug 29, 2019)

Hi guys, so I’ve been poking around and like this kit, https://www.automationtechnologiesi...4-bf20l-controller-with-acorn-cnc-controller/

So what do you think about the Acorn Ethernet vs. the UC100 USB Mach 3?


----------



## coherent (Aug 30, 2019)

Can't comment on the Acorn. I do have a UC100 on a mill and it works ok but depending on what other USB items you use (pendant etc) I have had some USB conflicts. I prefer UCCNC but also have Mach 3. I also have a UC400 ETH and I've had no issues with it and it works well with both UCCNC and Mach 3. I think ethernet is the way to go personally.


----------



## matthewsx (Aug 30, 2019)

+1 for building your own if you have limited space. I started with a z-axis column I found on craigslist and have pieced it together from that. Obviously if you can start with a working machine you'll be able to build many of the mechanical components you need for the conversion yourself. I'm assuming you're not planning on converting your PM727?

I can see the appeal of the kits that are  out there but many of them just package $400 worth of stuff and sell it for a grand. Looking at the one you listed there's nothing special about the pieces in that kit and there's still an awful lot of stuff you'll need to do to hook it up to whatever machine you buy. I started out with a $20 controller card, parallel pci card for my old pc, three $10 drivers, some donated nema 23 stepper motors and old laptop power supplies I had laying around. I got my machine up and running with the original column I bought, a fabricated base, and an X-Y stage purchased off eBay. I use LinuxCNC to control it all and don't have experience with the other systems but have been happy with the flexibility and ease of use with it.

Since then I'm in the process of upgrading the Y axis and have decided to switch to a Mesa Electronics Ethernet controller for better documentation. I will probably also eventually upgrade my drivers and steppers too. But, I really wanted the learning experience of building this thing and I'm willing to spend my time improving it as needed. If I wanted to start producing parts right away I would definitely go the route above with buying an existing machine and upgrading the electronics.

As you'll find with any "what machine should I get" question on this forum you really need to figure out what you want to build before you start shopping. I'm assuming from your username that you're into paintball and probably wanting to make new gear for that hobby. What materials will you be working with and what is the maximum size part you anticipate building? It's pretty easy to overestimate the jobs that can be done on a small machine so understanding the limitations of what you are looking at is critical to avoiding disappointment. 

I'm sure many of us understand the difficulties of an expanding hobby with limited shop space. I recently moved some of my mom's stuff into storage so I could have more room in the garage. Now is a good time to have the discussion with your spouse about how much space, time, and money the hobby machine thing will eventually consume. Most wives welcome hobbies that don't include spending time away from home, or fast cars, or other women  If you have ideas that can eventually become a source of income that will probably be appreciated too.

Good luck, and don't settle for half a solution. 

Cheers,

John


----------



## Livnpaintball (Aug 30, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> +1 for building your own if you have limited space. I started with a z-axis column I found on craigslist and have pieced it together from that. Obviously if you can start with a working machine you'll be able to build many of the mechanical components you need for the conversion yourself. I'm assuming you're not planning on converting your PM727?
> 
> I can see the appeal of the kits that are  out there but many of them just package $400 worth of stuff and sell it for a grand. Looking at the one you listed there's nothing special about the pieces in that kit and there's still an awful lot of stuff you'll need to do to hook it up to whatever machine you buy. I started out with a $20 controller card, parallel pci card for my old pc, three $10 drivers, some donated nema 23 stepper motors and old laptop power supplies I had laying around. I got my machine up and running with the original column I bought, a fabricated base, and an X-Y stage purchased off eBay. I use LinuxCNC to control it all and don't have experience with the other systems but have been happy with the flexibility and ease of use with it.
> 
> ...


Thanks John, I really want to do a ground up build but I don’t have the time required to build it right. I will be milling 7075 small parts for cars, bikes, golf carts, you name it. I use to play paintball but know I’m in to Long Range shooting, want to build a chassis for one of my bolt guns, the list goes on. 

The PM727 will stay manual because I will need it to do odd singular cuts here and there, plus it’s a good drill press! I will probably go with the PM25 and whichever kit and os. I have a bunch of reading to do on Centriod, Mach3, and now Linux since that keeps coming up.


----------



## matthewsx (Aug 30, 2019)

Conversion kits plus the mill will get you near $4000,

I'm not seeing anything too special in either of the kits, maybe it's because I've been doing my own "conversion" but I really think you can build and buy everything in both those kits yourself for a whole lot less.

If I was going to spend that kind of money I would be inclined to look for a more capable machine, but that's just me....

Cheers,

John


----------



## Livnpaintball (Sep 2, 2019)

Just reading up and do I need to go closed loop to consistent milling? Or is everyone getting good repeatability with the open loop?


----------



## Boswell (Sep 2, 2019)

My system is open loop. I keep the acceleration conservative and don't push the cutter load and have not had any issues. Closed loop would be nice but seems overkill of a hobby system.


----------



## matthewsx (Sep 2, 2019)

That's a question I was wondering about too, I'm not nearly close to testing repeatability but as I plan my upgrades I would like to purchase what I need once rather than stumbling through it. I'm lucky that the steppers I'm using now were gifted so I'm not loosing out when I replace them but would like to do it only once.

From what I've read, and people I've talked with (there is a CNC tool manufacturer in our little town) closed loop isn't really necessary if you have enough power to start with. It seems like loosing steps happens when you're cutting faster than the machine would like to handle. Of course I could be totally wrong about that since I'm only a little further along than you are.

I'm assuming you've read this thread where he's building almost exactly the machine you're planning.









						New PM-25MV Mill
					

After getting some Christmas money and making a few extra bucks with a machining job, I decided to get a new milling machine.  I currently have a Harbor Freight X2 that I have had for a little over 2 years now.  I will be converting the PM-25 to CNC immediately.  I intend for this thread to be...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Cheers,

John


----------



## Livnpaintball (Sep 2, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> That's a question I was wondering about too, I'm not nearly close to testing repeatability but as I plan my upgrades I would like to purchase what I need once rather than stumbling through it. I'm lucky that the steppers I'm using now were gifted so I'm not loosing out when I replace them but would like to do it only once.
> 
> From what I've read, and people I've talked with (there is a CNC tool manufacturer in our little town) closed loop isn't really necessary if you have enough power to start with. It seems like loosing steps happens when you're cutting faster than the machine would like to handle. Of course I could be totally wrong about that since I'm only a little further along than you are.
> 
> ...


I will have to finish his thread, since I have started this one I have now decided on the pm30 to get the extra weight and power. Guess I will go with open loop because I will have an abundance of power all away around, planning on 1000-1600oz steppers to mate up with the ball screws(procut kit)


----------



## Nrpdyer (Sep 2, 2019)

I havent finished my Pm25 cnc build yet but went with closed loop steppers from omc-stepperonline.com.  Prices were amazing and shipping was fast.  Put everything in the cart to evaluate shipping costs as it will be higher than domestic but still amazing prices for this technology.


----------



## Livnpaintball (Sep 2, 2019)

Thinking of going with longs motors and drivers but still looking, they have a closed loop set as well. If their warranty process is a pain then I will order from automationtech, or cnc4pc, or similar. Just ordered the pm30 and procut cnc kit.


----------



## matthewsx (Sep 2, 2019)

Livnpaintball said:


> Thinking of going with longs motors and drivers but still looking, they have a closed loop set as well. If their warranty process is a pain then I will order from automationtech, or cnc4pc, or similar. Just ordered the pm30 and procut cnc kit.



I'm sure you will be happier going up a size, it's hard to have too much power....

John


----------



## Livnpaintball (Sep 6, 2019)

Turns out Lngs warranty is a pain in the ass, you have to send them back to China. Stepped online can return to the US location if it ships from there. Stepperonline it is..


----------



## shooter123456 (Sep 7, 2019)

Livnpaintball said:


> I will have to finish his thread, since I have started this one I have now decided on the pm30 to get the extra weight and power. Guess I will go with open loop because I will have an abundance of power all away around, planning on 1000-1600oz steppers to mate up with the ball screws(procut kit)


One thing to consider is that as the steppers go up in size and torque, their speed gets limited pretty quick.  I have a few 400 oz in Nema 23s that I can get to spin at 3000 RPM easily, but a 1200 oz in Nema 34 I have will start to struggle around 1200 RPM.  So they will likely have plenty of torque, but it is possible that you will limit yourself on rapids.


----------



## Livnpaintball (Sep 7, 2019)

Shooter


shooter123456 said:


> One thing to consider is that as the steppers go up in size and torque, their speed gets limited pretty quick.  I have a few 400 oz in Nema 23s that I can get to spin at 3000 RPM easily, but a 1200 oz in Nema 34 I have will start to struggle around 1200 RPM.  So they will likely have plenty of torque, but it is possible that you will limit yourself on rapids.


shooter, they are rated a max of 5k rpm but I don’t know the pitch of the screws. Hopefully it will be ok, next for me to figure out is the control board and cnc software


----------



## hman (Sep 8, 2019)

Don't know if this applies, but I recall from using (smaller) steppers years ago that momentum can sometimes be your enemy.  Going to full speed from a dead stop might cause problems (stalls).  The solution is to use an acceleration ramp.  You might also want to monitor the voltage output of the power supply.  Voltage should NOT droop during startup.


----------



## Livnpaintball (Sep 10, 2019)

Switching gears to the PC, can I use a laptop with touch screen so I can have fusion 360 on it as well or would it be better just to have a dedicated pc just to run Mach4 or centroid, ect. Need to figure this part out, the mill should be here next week!


----------



## matthewsx (Sep 10, 2019)

Livnpaintball said:


> Switching gears to the PC, can I use a laptop with touch screen so I can have fusion 360 on it as well or would it be better just to have a dedicated pc just to run Mach4 or centroid, ect. Need to figure this part out, the mill should be here next week!



I'm sure you can make whatever hardware you have work, it's just a matter of working out the bugs as I'm finding out. Someone with Mach 4 experience will be better able to answer your question but probably if you are using an Ethernet based controller board you'll be fine using the laptop.

I'm running FreeCad and LinuxCNC currently with an older dedicated PC on the controls side. Will be upgrading to a Mesa 7i96 Ethernet based controller to run the machine and am currently working out the details of making my newer (Intel i5) system work with this setup. I haven't yet decided if I'm sticking with my old Dell desktop for the control PC but I'm setting up the newer HP machine I have on my electronics bench to dual boot so I can build my new controls box without tearing apart my working setup. I prefer Linux over Windows for stability and lack of licensing costs, also the opensource community is able to make improvements without having to answer to shareholders.

One of the benefits of building your own machine is you get to evolve it as your knowledge grows. I'm pretty sure you can change out the PC hardware with minimal hassle once you figure out the settings but I would opt for a dedicated desktop PC over a laptop for controlling the machine. It doesn't have to be especially fast or modern for this task where you probably want those features for your design workstation. I just happen to have a whole bunch of computers so I can shop at home for whatever I need  

Cheers,

John


----------



## matthewsx (Sep 10, 2019)

Here's a document from LinuxCNC that covers a bunch of info about steppers, drivers, wiring, etc. Good stuff even if you're running Mach or something else, wish I had it when I first started....



			http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/pdf/LinuxCNC_Integrator.pdf
		


John


----------



## Livnpaintball (Sep 10, 2019)

John,

I will probably go with a desktop for the control, as you alluded to, set it and forget it. I will need to get a laptop and use it for Fusion360 when I’m out on a trip. Will have to give the LinuxCNC a read.! Thanks for the input.


----------



## hman (Sep 10, 2019)

Livnpaintball said:


> Switching gears to the PC, can I use a laptop with touch screen so I can have fusion 360 on it as well or would it be better just to have a dedicated pc just to run Mach4 or centroid, ect. Need to figure this part out, the mill should be here next week!


I recently bought a small CNC mill (DynaMyte Dm2400).  It came with an itty bitty Lenovo PC, about the size of a small hardback book, mounted to the outside back of the control cabinet.  I'm running Centroid on Win 10.  The connection between the PC and the Centroid board is by Ethernet - fast, reliable, no interrupts.  Works very well. No glitches!  Have a small (non touchscreen) monitor on a swing arm, USB hub, wired keyboard, wireless mouse, and a wired Xbox controller (using "Rewasd" software) for manual positioning.

I use a different computer for CAD work - dual monitors, printer, etc.  Use thumb drives to move the CAM/Gcode files to the PC on the mill.  I prefer this arrangement because it lets me sit down in a quiet (clean) office with lots of desk space, where I can spread out reference material etc. while doing CAD work.  The office computer is a desktop tower.  I also have a laptop I can use if I want to go somewhere and show somebody the work in progress.

There's no reason you can't start out with a single laptop for both CAD and CAM.  Then once you learn the software and get going, you can add a second PC or whatever you need to aid your workflow.  

One more thought - machine tools make chips, which LOVE to get into keyboards, etc.  The keyboard on a laptop is integral to the machine and not replaceable.  So be careful.  The keyboard I use on my mill is a cheap one and easily replaced if it gets contaminated or damaged.  I'd love to get a sealed unit, but have not yet found a satisfactory "full size" one (with a numeric keypad).


----------



## JimDawson (Sep 10, 2019)

hman said:


> The keyboard I use on my mill is a cheap one and easily replaced if it gets contaminated or damaged. I'd love to get a sealed unit, but have not yet found a satisfactory "full size" one (with a numeric keypad).



On my machines I use only the finest keyboards and mice that $5 will buy.  I kill one every year or so.  If using a laptop, set it off to the side, protected, and use a USB or wireless keyboard & mouse, and an external monitor.  Keep the lid closed.


----------



## Livnpaintball (Oct 6, 2019)

Pm30 is here, the PROCUT kit made it (more on that later...), servos are here and I have narrowed it down to Masso3G or Acorn. I ordered a FAB Pro table that I will use as the base so the garage is getting cluttered up with STUFF.

Masso or Acorn?... hum..


----------



## Livnpaintball (Nov 11, 2019)

Table is almost done and fixing to order some more parts, what do you guys think would work best, Mechanical or Proximity limit switches? I would say Prox but what do U guys prefer?


----------



## Cooter Brown (Nov 11, 2019)

This is my CNC build log feel free to steal any of my ideas if they help you....









						Bridgeport CNC with Masso Controller/Clearpath
					

This is going to be my first CNC build and my First build log. I've decided that a build log on this forum might be a good idea for this project so the next guy to take on this project doesn't have to deal with the stupid stuff I'm already running into.  This is my Masso Controller  I will be...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------

