# PM-1660TL



## erikmannie

I will document the details of how I set up the PM-1660TL that I have backordered for 10 weeks or more.

This will be my first 3 phase machine. I need to educate myself on how to power the machine from the 220V, 40A outlet which is located about 4 feet from the headstock.

This 220V outlet is currently used for my Miller welding machines. The outlet has two female receptacles (3 and 4 prong).

Our breaker box is 100% full, so I cannot add another 220V outlet.

A YouTube video (which I will link to below) shows how to do this “on the headstock end”. This will get me a power cord, so I just need to plan the 220 3 phase to 220 single phase.


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## erikmannie

I am also ordering the taper attachment. I am curious if this will fit in between the ways and the backsplash.

The machine comes with an 9” 3 jaw chuck. Precision Matthews offers a 10” 4 jaw chuck in the options. This is my third order with PM, and they have never let me down. Unless I hear otherwise, I will choose their 10” 4J.

EDIT: Not surprisingly, the taper attachment does indeed fit between the ways and the splashguard.


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## erikmannie

This YouTuber made my day with his PM-1640TL videos. I will probably watch all of those videos about 20 times each.


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## ddickey

You only get one chuck?


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## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> You only get one chuck?



Looks like it:


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## erikmannie

The logical location in my 2 car garage for the lathe is on the street side of the garage, close to where the automatic garage door rolls down and parallel to the street.

Hopefully nobody in my family will run a car into the garage door because that would not help the lathe.

This location will be an easy install as far as the forklift is concerned. Speaking of which, my plan for that is to rent a forklift (I am certified for the specific forklift at work). If they won’t rent me a forklift, I will have to hire a rigger. There is a company in my area named Precision Crane. That would be the easiest job that they have ever had, although my driveway does have a slight slope.


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## erikmannie

In order to afford this machine, I had to give up my future plans to attend vocation school AND get a personal loan for 60% of the order total, the APR of which is a whopping 22.9%. This was obviously an impulsive, wasteful financial plan.

There is not currently room in the garage for anything new, much less this 110” long machine. I have to move out my last workbench (I moved the first bench out when I got my 10” lathe).

Additionally, I have to move out all of my bicycles in order to keep my welding table in the garage. Never mind the fact that the welding table no longer be anywhere near the 220V outlet.


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## erikmannie

Finally (for now), I would like to keep my PM-1030V lathe because it has never caused me a single problem. I would be very interested in justifications for having two lathes in a hobby shop.

The only reason that I would let it go is to free up valuable shop space. The PM-1030V is bolted to the ground, so I drilled into the concrete floor. Clearly, I wasn’t thinking ahead so much.


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## benmychree

Powering the 3 phase would probably be best solved with a frequency drive unit, you likely would not need to use the variable frequency feature, but it would be quiet, unlike RPCs and give you smooth starts and full horsepower.


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## FOMOGO

Just me, but I never buy anything I can't pay cash for, and 23% interest in my opinion is just nuts. I just bought a 1940 Sidney lathe in very nice condition, with a taper attachment, 3 jaw, and 2 four jaw chucks, 16.5" swing, 4500#, for $1700. To me the whole idea of having these machines is to learn to make, and repair things. Why not find a well maintained, used quality machine, and save yourself a whole lot of money, and maybe learn some useful things in the process. Your money, jmho. Mike


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## mksj

I installed a control system and helped my friend setup his Acra 1640 which is the same model lathe. Easy move with a fork lift under the base, I also used a forklift to get mine into the garage. Might look through his thread below. I have mounted my last two lathes near the garage door facing in, when running power to the machine I use 4 wire and breakout 120VAC at the machine. It is an impressive lathe and QMT version has a larger spindle bore in their version. Chucks are very heavy, but TIR was almost not measurable. I had considered it but was just too big and heavy for my needs.








						NEW ACRA 1640TE
					

The machine was ordered mid December of 2017 from ACRA Machinery. The machine took a few weeks to arrive from Taiwan and was shipped to the port of LA, then onto Ranch Cucamonga where ACRA is located. The machine was then delivered to my location via flatbed. The machine sustained a fair amount...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Winegrower

That cleanup process seems absurdly difficult.


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## erikmannie

benmychree said:


> Powering the 3 phase would probably be best solved with a frequency drive unit, you likely would not need to use the variable frequency feature, but it would be quiet, unlike RPCs and give you smooth starts and full horsepower.



I’m so glad that I inquired here! I definitely need it to be as quiet as possible because my neighbor is an epic whiner.

So a frequency drive unit is more quiet?


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## erikmannie

mksj said:


> I installed a control system and helped my friend setup his Acra 1640 which is the same model lathe. Easy move with a fork lift under the base, I also used a forklift to get mine into the garage. Might look through his thread below. I have mounted my last two lathes near the garage door facing in, when running power to the machine I use 4 wire and breakout 120VAC at the machine. It is an impressive lathe and QMT version has a larger spindle bore in their version. Chucks are very heavy, but TIR was almost not measurable. I had considered it but was just too big and heavy for my needs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NEW ACRA 1640TE
> 
> 
> The machine was ordered mid December of 2017 from ACRA Machinery. The machine took a few weeks to arrive from Taiwan and was shipped to the port of LA, then onto Ranch Cucamonga where ACRA is located. The machine was then delivered to my location via flatbed. The machine sustained a fair amount...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hobby-machinist.com



That was a really helpful link to the Acra 1640 thread. I had seen very similar machines from different manufacturers, and I will be researching the Acra 1640 extensively.

There is another Pacific Rim manufacturer who sells the same machine: Sun Master.

I agree that borrowing $12,000 for five years at 23% APR is completely stupid.


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## mmcmdl

I think home equity LOC is about 2.5% . Ever consider this ? I'm like Mike , I pay cash for mostly everything .


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## erikmannie

mmcmdl said:


> I think home equity LOC is about 2.5% . Ever consider this ? I'm like Mike , I pay cash for mostly everything .


I own my home with my wife and daughter, and the machine purchase was a solo act.


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## erikmannie

Not to start a whole conversation about it, but I had a nightmarish personal tragedy in my family a few days before I bought this machine. For better or worse, I needed some mental relief. This lathe has been my dream machine. I don’t have any interests other than metalworking.


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## ddickey

erikmannie said:


> That was a really helpful link to the Acra 1640 thread. I had seen very similar machines from different manufacturers, and I will be researching the Acra 1640 extensively.
> 
> There is another Pacific Rim manufacturer who sells the same machine: Sun Master.
> 
> I agree that borrowing $12,000 for five years at 23% APR is completely stupid.


Sun Master is the manufacturer. I have one and it's a very nice machine.


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## ddickey

mksj said:


> I installed a control system and helped my friend setup his Acra 1640 which is the same model lathe. Easy move with a fork lift under the base, I also used a forklift to get mine into the garage. Might look through his thread below. I have mounted my last two lathes near the garage door facing in, when running power to the machine I use 4 wire and breakout 120VAC at the machine. It is an impressive lathe and QMT version has a larger spindle bore in their version. Chucks are very heavy, but TIR was almost not measurable. I had considered it but was just too big and heavy for my needs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NEW ACRA 1640TE
> 
> 
> The machine was ordered mid December of 2017 from ACRA Machinery. The machine took a few weeks to arrive from Taiwan and was shipped to the port of LA, then onto Ranch Cucamonga where ACRA is located. The machine was then delivered to my location via flatbed. The machine sustained a fair amount...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hobby-machinist.com


Mark, I think Paco got the RML 1640 which has a 2" spindle bore but the TL 1640 which appears to be what QMT is importing has a 2.55" spindle bore. 
Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> Sun Master is the manufacturer. I have one and it's a very nice machine.



Do you know if the taper attachment fits between the ways and the backsplash?


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## matthewsx

erikmannie said:


> Not to start a whole conversation about it, but I had a nightmarish personal tragedy in my family a few days before I bought this machine. For better or worse, I needed some mental relief. This lathe has been my dream machine. I don’t have any interests other than metalworking.



Erik,

You won't regret buying the lathe, I think most of understand how this hobby can be a refuge from the storm. Stay strong my friend....

John


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## ddickey

Yes, I do not have one although I would really like to get one in the future. I'm pretty sure I've seen pics of them installed fitting nicely with the back splash in place. I would think for that quality of machine it would most definitely fit.


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## erikmannie

I wonder why the PM-1660TL has a reducing sleeve in the through spindle.

It might have something to do with the fact that the PM machine has a 2.55” through spindle. The other manufacturers appear to have a through spindle just over 2” (e.g. 2-1/16”).

With the aforementioned reducing sleeve,  the PM-1660TL has an MT4 at both the tailstock & spindle.

At least one of the other similar machines discussed has an MT6 taper at the spindle (and MT4 on the tailstock).

EDIT: The MT6 to MT4 reducing sleeve is installed when the operator wants to use an MT4 taper tool in the headstock end. Now that I have the lathe, I usually leave this reducing sleeve out in order to take advantage of the large through spindle.


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## erikmannie

matthewsx said:


> Erik,
> 
> You won't regret buying the lathe, I think most of understand how this hobby can be a refuge from the storm. Stay strong my friend....
> 
> John


And a fine refuge it is.


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## ddickey

erikmannie said:


> I wonder why the PM-1660TL has a reducing sleeve in the through spindle.
> 
> It might have something to do with the fact that the PM machine has a 2.55” through spindle. The other manufacturers appear to have a through spindle just over 2” (e.g. 2-1/16”).
> 
> With the aforementioned reducing sleeve,  the PM-1660TL has an MT4 at both the tailstock & spindle.
> 
> At least one of the other similar machines discussed has an MT6 taper at the spindle (and MT4 on the tailstock).


Looks like it has a very odd taper. TS is MT4. HS is P70mm taper. I'm to tired to search for more info tonight.


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## erikmannie

I ordered the factory installed DRO. I really hope that the taper attachment and DRO scale don’t interfere with one another.

EDIT: PM took such great care of me & installed both the DRO & taper attachment at the factory in PA. Setup on my end was a cake walk.


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## erikmannie

I am definitely going to put a QCTP on this. I wonder if this will be BXA or CXA.

EDIT: CXA is best, but BXA will function.


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## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> Looks like it has a very odd taper. TS is MT4. HS is P70mm taper. I'm to tired to search for more info tonight.



All of the tailstocks that I’ve seen on these types are MT4. This appears to be universal.


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## ddickey

That's a good point never thought about the DRO scales.


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## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> That's a good point never thought about the DRO scales.



It would be a matter of installing a DRO scale on this:


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## erikmannie

I will email PM to see if the taper attachment interferes with the DRO scale.

If it does, this is the less desirable backup plan (which is what I have for my current lathe).


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## Winegrower

Looks like there would be plenty of room below the taper adapter.


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## erikmannie

Winegrower said:


> Looks like there would be plenty of room below the taper adapter.



It looks like that to me, too.

On the PM website, it allows you to put the following items in your cart and check out:
(1) DRO,
(2) DRO installation, and
(3) taper attachment


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## mksj

ddickey said:


> Mark, I think Paco got the RML 1640 which has a 2" spindle bore but the TL 1640 which appears to be what QMT is importing has a 2.55" spindle bore.
> Correct me if I'm wrong.



Correct, each distributor specifies the build requirements, so there are some differences between distributors. The 2.55" spindle that QMT offers is the largest I have seen at this price level and below. The D1-6 chucks are pretty massive. This lathe is also sold by Kent and a few other US distributors in various iterations. I have the ERL-1340 which is also made by Sunmaster, similar to you it was what I looked at years ago and couldn't justify the cost at the time. A move motivated me to sell my 1340GT rather than have another machine to move, and I was fortunate to be able to order an ERL-1340 from Matt and have had it about a year. My friend who purchased the 1640 was very picky, and we were both very impressed by the lathe. It is a beast, super quiet and solid. We installed a factory taper attachment, in the back of the lathe, took two of us to install. The alignment is critical so nothing binds. Once set, it is drilled and doweled. not an easy task. Took us a few tries, it was very heavy.

Machine takes a CXA Tool Post.


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## Aaron_W

Congratulations, getting ready for its arrival should be good to keep your mind busy. Renting a forklift shouldn't be an issue, I don't think most rental companies care if you know how to operate a piece of equipment.

In front of the door seems like a good spot for it, and it gives you access to the backside by opening the door.

You can make an extension cord for the welder, I just made a 20 footer for mine, I think it was about $60 in parts and materials for a 30A circuit.

A second lathe is useful. For one thing smaller lathers have smaller tools that weigh less so it is less work to change things up. I still use my Sherline for a lot of stuff even though I have a bigger lathe available, because it works really well for small projects. Two lathes can also be handy if you have multiple parts that require some special set up. You can do some of the work on one, and then move to the other lathe to do the other part saving you set up time compared to only having one lathe.


As far as the interest rate, 22% is pretty bad, about $220 a month in interest on $12000. Realistically people blow that much all the time on less cool stuff. A mocha and a blueberry muffin at Starbucks every morning going to work is about $150 /mo and gazillions of people do that without a second thought. I've got 2 storage units of my mothers stuff that I'm paying almost $200 a month for. She passed away almost 2 years ago so that is almost $4000 basically for nothing, I know there is probably less than a truck load of stuff my brother or I might actually want. I really need to get those things emptied out.  

This lathe, right now might not be your wisest choice, but fun things often are not the most prudent. We need fun things in our lives so we don't go crazy.


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## BGHansen

You'll figure out a way to mount the Z-axis scale with the taper attachment in place.  PM might have some ideas, but nothing beats having the hardware right in front of you.  

Not a beast of a machine like your 1660, but here's what I did on my 14x40 G0709.  I mounted a bracket for the read head off the bottom of what Grizzly's manual calls the 'body' of the taper attachment.  If you look at the first photo you'll see a pull dowel and cap screw in the upper LH corner.  That's the LH (from the rear) mount of the TA body to the carriage.  I don't plan on ever pulling the TA, so went this route.  I'd have to find another mounting location if the TA was pulled.

I also tapped a hole for a flat-head cap screw in the carriage which acts as a stop to protect the X/Y scale from getting hit by the tail stock.

Bruce


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## erikmannie

I continue to be astounded as to how friendly, insightful, helpful & engaged the people on this forum are. I will have to pay that foreward.

I see that the PM-1660TL has a slip clutch on the feed rod. At one point, I will want to buy/make/modify some micrometer carriage stop to take advantage of this feature.

EDIT: The machine comes included with a micrometer carriage stop.


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## 7milesup

erikmannie said:


> I continue to be astounded as to how friendly, insightful, helpful & engaged the people on this forum are. I will have to pay that foreward.



Isn't that the truth Erik.  By far the best forum I have ever been on.


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## Buffalo21

Erik, Erik, Erik, <sigh>

a 16 x 60?? Egads your starting a arms race, next a member will get a 18 x 80, then that will have to be surpassed. Its like the USSR develops a 40 MT warhead, then the US has to develop a 50MT Warhead, then it just keeps going up. Where will the madness end......................

I went from a 12 x 30 lathe to a 14 x 40 lathe, the difference in work envelope difference seemed huge, going from a 10 x 30 to a 16 x 60, will be like comparing a drainage ditch to the Grand Canyon. Obviously the majority of us are quite envious of your purchase. I had quite a chore fitting the 14 x 40 into my shop, there is no way a 16 x 60 would fit, unless, I put everything else in the shop outdoors.

your going to need a gantry or jib crane, to lift the chucks or maybe even the work piece.....

It goes without saying, we want and need. Pictures of the beast when it arrives.


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## kb58

If the lathe has already been ordered, skip this post...

If it has not been ordered, I strongly advise stopping everything. Per your other thread, you've been through a very traumatic event and your mind is not where it needs to be for a decision like this. You almost seem to know it, too, saying how much of an issue getting the lathe is going to be. Financing something like this is just throwing money away. What is it about this lathe that you absolutely must have it right now?

I sense that you're on the edge of being self-destructive, punishing yourself (via the financing) under the delusion that the lathe is what you need right now. This makes me think of a guy who's wife leaves him, so he buys a new Corvette and gets a stripper girlfriend to compensate. Is doing that really going to make him feel better? Normally, issues like this are handled offline and in private, but since you posted about this and the other event, expect to get more public input!

And no, I've never been one for candy-wrapping my thoughts...


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## erikmannie

kb58 said:


> If the lathe has already been ordered, skip this post...
> 
> If it has not been ordered, I strongly advise stopping everything. Per your other thread, you've been through a very traumatic event and your mind is not where it needs to be for a decision like this. You almost seem to know it, too, saying how much of an issue getting the lathe is going to be. Financing something like this is just throwing money away. What is it about this lathe that you absolutely must have it right now?
> 
> I sense that you're on the edge of being self-destructive, punishing yourself (via the financing) under the delusion that the lathe is what you need right now. This makes me think of a guy who's wife leaves him, so he buys a new Corvette and gets a stripper girlfriend to compensate. Is doing that really going to make him feel better? Normally, issues like this are handled offline and in private, but since you posted about this and the other event, expect to get more public input!
> 
> And no, I've never been one for candy-wrapping my thoughts...


I always welcome posts such as this.

The loan has already been completed, and the deposit has already been received by PM.

I do have a high income, & I live in a 6 income household.

I had budgeted to spend this much on tuition, and the school plan has been cancelled.

I don’t need this large of a machine, but the project I am working on now calls for a 2” spindle through.

And there is no prepayment penalty on the loan if I can ever stop buying stuff!


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## Buffalo21

Erik,

where did you get the taper attachment, you showed in post #31


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## erikmannie

Buffalo21 said:


> Erik,
> 
> where did you get the taper attachment, you showed in post #31



I have this MT2 one which was Made in India:

https://www.amazon.com/Brand-Shank-Turning-Attachment-Tailstock/dp/B06XF693HG

You can find one that you like by Googling “Lathe Tailstock Taper Turning Attachment”.

I have seen them in Morse Tapers 1,2 and 3.

See also:

https://www.amazon.com/PRECISION-TURNING-ATTACHMENT-CENTER-MACHINE-METRIC/dp/B07MV1F2JP


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## pontiac428

Erik, you can easily add another 220v circuit to a full panel by replacing four single house breakers with two slim double beakers. That will leave you with two slots for your new 220v circuit. Pick 15A or 20A circuits to use the new breakers on. It's a legit fix.


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## wrmiller

After reading this thread, I wandered over to the PM site and they have a 1440TL in stock!  Good thing I can't afford it!


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## erikmannie

I am just now sitting down to research methods of converting single phase to 3 phase.

My uncle was an electrician his whole career, and he says that I am making a terrible mistake bringing a 3 phase machine into my suburban home. He says that the device & installation is prohibitively expensive.

I need to make this work. I gather that a lot of other people run big three phase machines off of 220V single phase. My first idea is a frequency drive unit.

I see that the PM-1660TL calls for a 30A circuit. I have a 40A 220V outlet right there.


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## erikmannie

pontiac428 said:


> Erik, you can easily add another 220v circuit to a full panel by replacing four single house breakers with two slim double beakers. That will leave you with two slots for your new 220v circuit. Pick 15A or 20A circuits to use the new breakers on. It's a legit fix.



One of my 220V welders calls for a 40A breaker. I wonder if I could obtain that with two slim double breakers.

I was with the electrician when he wired my 40A, 220V outlet which has both three and four prong (female) receptacles. He was telling me how our panel was jam packed with wires.

Our house used to be one house, and the previous owner put another house on top of it so we have 2 water heaters, 2 furnaces, etc. The electrician (my uncle) says that we will never be able to install A/C.

The outlet has been a champ for welding, and I may share that outlet with the lathe.


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## erikmannie

wrmiller said:


> After reading this thread, I wandered over to the PM site and they have a 1440TL in stock!  Good thing I can't afford it!



You want the name of the place with the 22.9% APR loan?


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## wrmiller

erikmannie said:


> You want the name of the place with the 22.9% APR loan?



NO!


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## wrmiller

Regarding 3-phase: I have a PM 1340GT lathe and a 935TS mill. Both are 3-phase, and each have their own VFD. Wiring the mill is dead simple. The lathe on the other hand was confusing to me. Good think Mark (mksj) was willing to help me with a control setup that has a micrometer stop, jog, soft-start, and two-stage braking. I don't miss a foot brake at all.


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## erikmannie

Doing a very small amount of research online, I wonder if this would serve:






						Amazon.com: American Rotary Phase Converter AR10F Floor Unit 10 HP Made is USA : Electronics
					

Amazon.com: American Rotary Phase Converter AR10F Floor Unit 10 HP Made is USA : Electronics



					www.amazon.com


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## erikmannie

My good friend Alan B., a member of this forum, worked as an electrical engineer for 40 years. He highly recommends that I get a VFD.

If anybody has any links to a VFD that would be good for a 5 HP lathe, I would like to look at them. I’m going to throw a couple of candidates out there myself:









						P1-00330-LFUF
					

P1-00330-LFUF: Variable Torque Hitachi 10 HP, 7.5 kW, VFD




					www.driveswarehouse.com
				




I don’t understand why the input on this Hitachi VFD is 3 phase.

I think I am going to have to hire an electrician. The wires from my main panel to my outlet are either 8 ga or 10 ga, and some of these devices call for 4 ga all the way to the panel.


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## erikmannie

This one looks like a winner. Too bad it’s so expensive:






						Larson Electronics - 7.5HP VFD Phase Converter - 220-240V AC 1PH Input/3PH Output - 24 Amps - 5.5kW
					

7.5HP VFD Phase Converter - 220-240V AC 1PH Input/3PH Output - 24 Amps - 5.5kW




					www.larsonelectronics.com


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## Aaron_W

erikmannie said:


> One of my 220V welders calls for a 40A breaker. I wonder if I could obtain that with two slim double breakers.
> 
> I was with the electrician when he wired my 40A, 220V outlet which has both three and four prong (female) receptacles. He was telling me how our panel was jam packed with wires.
> 
> Our house used to be one house, and the previous owner put another house on top of it so we have 2 water heaters, 2 furnaces, etc. The electrician (my uncle) says that we will never be able to install A/C.
> 
> The outlet has been a champ for welding, and I may share that outlet with the lathe.




I'm not an electrician, but I have risked a Don King hairdo a few times. As I understand it, you can use the double breakers for 120v because in reality every slot in the box is set up for 240v. Those double 120v breakers just use one hot leg for one, and the other hot leg for the other. Since a 240v breaker uses both sides, you can't get a double breaker for them.

In our shops we really don't have 3 phase, the phase converter or VFD just take our single phase power and make the machine think it is 3 phase. Getting real 3 phase power apparently is very expensive.  

If the electrical at your house is that bad, it might be worth looking at adding an additional drop from PG&E to power your garage. Not cheap to do, but a side benefit might be the ability to add A/C to your house which might make it an easier sale to the rest of the family. 


As far as the VFD, I got excellent service from Wolf Automation. I sent them an email explaining what I was looking for, and a tech responded within a few minutes, and gave me several options at different price points as well as explaining why they were making those recommendations. 

https://www.wolfautomation.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI99Owl6Cr6gIVDSCtBh0GOgRCEAAYASAAEgKUtfD_BwE


I installed the VFD on my mill, but I'm still kind of shocked that I was able to get it to work, so not going to even try to suggest a particular VFD. However looking at the 5-7.5hp VFDs at Wolf I see several in the $400-800 range which I suspect will work for you.


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## erikmannie

This video was similar to my application because the guy tapped into his welding outlet:


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## erikmannie

Aaron_W said:


> I'm not an electrician, but I have risked a Don King hairdo a few times. As I understand it, you can use the double breakers for 120v because in reality every slot in the box is set up for 240v. Those double 120v breakers just use one hot leg for one, and the other hot leg for the other. Since a 240v breaker uses both sides, you can't get a double breaker for them.
> 
> In our shops we really don't have 3 phase, the phase converter or VFD just take our single phase power and make the machine think it is 3 phase. Getting real 3 phase power apparently is very expensive.
> 
> If the electrical at your house is that bad, it might be worth looking at adding an additional drop from PG&E to power your garage. Not cheap to do, but a side benefit might be the ability to add A/C to your house which might make it an easier sale to the rest of the family.
> 
> 
> As far as the VFD, I got excellent service from Wolf Automation. I sent them an email explaining what I was looking for, and a tech responded within a few minutes, and gave me several options at different price points as well as explaining why they were making those recommendations.
> 
> https://www.wolfautomation.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI99Owl6Cr6gIVDSCtBh0GOgRCEAAYASAAEgKUtfD_BwE
> 
> 
> I installed the VFD on my mill, but I'm still kind of shocked that I was able to get it to work, so not going to even try to suggest a particular VFD. However looking at the 5-7.5hp VFDs at Wolf I see several in the $400-800 range which I suspect will work for you.



That is a new idea to ask PG&E for a new drop because all the electrician could talk about was how this was the end of the line as far as adding wires in the panel. The 10 (or was it 8?) gauge wire for my welding outlet barely fit through the back of the panel.

To be blunt, the electrician said that nobody will be adding any new wires into that panel so I am looking at tapping into the existing outlet.

I saw Wolf Automation on my first internet search. I will shoot them an email tomorrow & post here what I found out.


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## erikmannie

Here are some Wolf Automation 5HP VFDs:









						VFD, HD 5hp, 17A, 200-240 VAC, 3 Phase, IP20, Meet
					

VFD, HD 5hp, 17A, 200-240 VAC, 3 Phase, IP20, Meets UL 61800-5-1, 3 Phase Output, Keypad and Potentiometer




					www.wolfautomation.com
				




and









						VFD, 5hp, 19.1A, 230VAC, 3 Phase Input, Compact Mi
					

VFD, 5hp, 19.1A, 230VAC, 3 Phase Input, Compact Micro Drive, Easy To Use, Optional NEMA/UL 1 Kit: NEMA1-C2-301 and Optional DIN Rail Mounting Adapter: RMA-C1-3.7 Available to Order Separately, 7.09H x 5.51W x 5.47D"




					www.wolfautomation.com
				




and









						VFD, 5hp, 17.5A, CT/VT, 230VAC, 3 Phase, F2,7.39x5
					

VFD, 5hp, 17.5A, CT/VT, 230VAC, 3 Phase, F2,7.39x5.07x6", Med. Duty Compact, NEMA1/IP20




					www.wolfautomation.com
				




and a compact one









						VFD, 5hp, 230V, 3 Phase, Compact High Performance
					

VFD, 5hp, 230V, 3 Phase, Compact High Performance




					www.wolfautomation.com


----------



## erikmannie

And I don’t know if it is advisable to choose a 7.5 HP in order to have a safety factor:









						VFD, HD 7.5hp, 24A, 200-240 VAC, 3 Phase, IP20, Me
					

VFD, HD 7.5hp, 24A, 200-240 VAC, 3 Phase, IP20, Meets UL 61800-5-1, 3 Phase Output, Keypad and Potentiometer




					www.wolfautomation.com


----------



## Aukai

My house is wired for 100 amps, I have a 100 amp capable TIG machine, I had a company make a fused breaker, with a 100 amp plug in for the welder. IF I ever needed a high amperage capability it can be done. If I was to go max power on the welder, I think circuits would trip if my wife used her electric tooth brush,pull 200 amp service if possible. My underground is 2" PVC, I need 4" to pull 200 amp service.


----------



## wrmiller

Sorry, can't help with the VFDs as my machines are 3HP and I used the VFD that Matt at PM sells. My house has a 200A service. The garage already had a 15A 120V service but I had a 70A box put in that has two 20A 120V circuits and two 30A circuits for my mill and lathe. I'm the only one out there, so I only run one machine at a time.


----------



## mksj

So a few things that I would recommend and some considerations for a 3 phase power source. My first recommendation for a turn key type of install would be an RPC for this size machine. You have plenty of mechanical gear speeds, the motor is extremely smooth and you have a mechanical brake that will quickly stop the lathe. You would need a 10Hp RPC. The American Rotary phase converter AMP is extremely quiet and you plug one end into the wall and the machines into the other end. The price has increased quite a bit from what I recall a year ago, but I the amp series is extremely quiet and a no brainier. Some recommendation below, most people buy the control box and find a 10Hp motor locally and save about 1K in the cost. eBay sometimes seems to have less expensive models, I do not have the time to sort through the models, I suggest you contact the companies directly to see what fits your needs. Also a number of Youtube posters have discount codes for American Rotary Phase products, so check them out you can usually save 5-10%. I think one was Vintage Machinery, Bar Z Industrial and there were a few others.








						AMP - Mobile Phase Converter - American Rotary
					

AMP Mobile - The AMP Mobile rotary phase converter is plug-and-play ready for a quick and cost-effective installation. Equipped to run 208-250V equipment in three tiers:     Tier 1: 1 Breaker and 1 Receptacle Tier 2: 2 Breakers and 2 Receptacles Tier 3: 3 Breakers and 3 Receptacles     These...




					www.americanrotary.com
				











						American Rotary Phase Converter AR10F Floor Unit 10 HP Made is USA  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for American Rotary Phase Converter AR10F Floor Unit 10 HP Made is USA at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				











						PL-10 Pro-Line 10HP Rotary Phase Converter - Built-In Starter, Made In USA  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for PL-10 Pro-Line 10HP Rotary Phase Converter - Built-In Starter, Made In USA at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				











						Rotary Phase Converter - 10 HP - CNC Grade, GP10P4LV  | eBay
					

Sizing a Phase Converter. Select the appropriate phase converter. The Idler/ Generator is covered by the manufacture warranty for 2 years. Single Phase Electrical Specs. Horsepower: 10 hp. Three Phase Electrical Specs.



					www.ebay.com
				



Panel








						CP-10 Pro-Line 10HP Rotary Phase Converter Control Panel - Loaded with Features  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for CP-10 Pro-Line 10HP Rotary Phase Converter Control Panel - Loaded with Features at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				











						Phase Converters NL - Single Phase 230V to Three Phase 230V
					

We offer a large selection of rotary phase converters, run capacitors, electrical transformers, IEC motors, and single phase to three phase converters.




					www.phoenixphaseconverters.com
				




As far as VFD's it is not just a matter of purchasing one that has the proper capacities but also it is not plug and play, it needs to be integrated into a control system, programmed and the parameters adjusted for the particular unit in order for it to run correctly. You need to integrated the electronic braking with the mechanical brake. In most cases you would need a separate VFD enclosure and then integrate the VFD with the lathe, there are two approaches to this, first is to do what I call is a basic install which is what I have previously outlined for the 1440GT. The other alternative is a full system build that replaces all the machine electronics. At the end of the day, an RPC is about 1/2 the price and much simpler.

There are very few native 5 Hp VFD's, the only one that I know is the Yaskawa CIMR-VUBA0018FAA which has sufficient inputs and programming features for this application. I would skip the Chinese generic units that make all kinds of claims as to input/output, I have worked with a few of these and the input terminals and design does not support what they claim. Most people buy the next larger size to somewhat compensate for this, and then there is the manuals which are abysmal as well as no support. I have been involved with two builds for this line of lathes, the first one we went with an oversized Hitachi WJ200 3 phase input derated for either single or 3 phase input and the other was a Yaskawa V1000 which was also similarly derated. The models for this application would be the Hitachi WJ200-075LF, Yaskawa CIMR-VU2A0040FAA, which are 10Hp 3 phase input rated units. It is also recommended to use a DC choke to decrease the ripple and noise when used with single phase input. On these models I use the MTE DCA004003 (40A 1 mH), so between the VFD and choke you are pushing 1K, if you do a basic install add about another $500. Also since these are 10Hp VFD's they can draw very high instantaneous currents, as a minimum you would need a 50-60A  240VAC single phase input supply. This is also what you would need for a 10Hp RPC. The Yaskawa CIMR-VU2A0040FAA has a low enough profile that it should be able to fit into the stock machine cabinet with a full build but it is a complicated process, my recollection was the back plate needed to be cut out for the VFD to be mounted and clear the cover. The CIMR-VUBA0018FAA would need a separate enclosure but would not need a DC choke, since it is a native 5 Hp unit.  FYI, on my ERL-1340 with a 3 HP motor I use the CIMR-VU2A0020FAA  which is a 5Hp model, 3 phase input.

So it is all doable, but an RPC will be more practical to get you up and running with the least cost. As I mentioned, many individuals purchase the control panel and source an enclosed 1750 RPM motor locally.


----------



## Aaron_W

See there are some here who really know this stuff.  

If you go the RPC route which is sounds like may be the better option in this case, Evan (ACHiPo) was just shopping for one. He mentions it in this thread about his new Graziano 12S. Since he just bought one he might have some tips, current deals, discounts etc.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/graziano-12s.84814/


----------



## wrmiller

Mark really does know his stuff. I learn something new from him all the time. Like RPCs...


----------



## pontiac428

I bought an American Rotary AR series for my mill.  I haven't got it all set up yet, but the sales, shipping, and support were good, and the equipment quality seems to be fantastic.  I went rotary because I did not want to rewire my mill, which has a lot of electrics.  I plan to upgrade my RPC (American Rotary offers upgrade components to increase capacity rather than making you buy another unit) when I get a bigger lathe and run both tools off of that.


----------



## erikmannie

I will execute the 3 phase to single phase conversion with one of these in 10HP (one receptacle and a 6’ cord):









						AMP - Mobile Phase Converter - American Rotary
					

AMP Mobile - The AMP Mobile rotary phase converter is plug-and-play ready for a quick and cost-effective installation. Equipped to run 208-250V equipment in three tiers:     Tier 1: 1 Breaker and 1 Receptacle Tier 2: 2 Breakers and 2 Receptacles Tier 3: 3 Breakers and 3 Receptacles     These...




					www.americanrotary.com
				




The order was $2,255 including the male receptacle, lift gate shipping & tax.

The salesman said that it is 60 dB max. 60 dB is as loud as normal conversation or a dishwasher.

The 220V single phase plug for this RPC is a NEMA 6-50P:


----------



## erikmannie

When I was still looking at buying a VFD, Precision Matthews said that this one will work for the PM-1660TL:









						Hitachi WJ200 Series WJ200-075LF - Hitachi AC Drives / VFD Drives - Hitachi AC Drive - Hitachi VFD | Owned and Operated by AutomatedPT
					

Series: WJ200  10 Horsepower(HP)  7.5 Kilowatt (KW)  200 Volts  33 Amps  3 Phase  7.3 pounds




					www.hitachiacdrive.com


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> So a few things that I would recommend and some considerations for a 3 phase power source. My first recommendation for a turn key type of install would be an RPC for this size machine. You have plenty of mechanical gear speeds, the motor is extremely smooth and you have a mechanical brake that will quickly stop the lathe. You would need a 10Hp RPC. The American Rotary phase converter AMP is extremely quiet and you plug one end into the wall and the machines into the other end. The price has increased quite a bit from what I recall a year ago, but I the amp series is extremely quiet and a no brainier. Some recommendation below, most people buy the control box and find a 10Hp motor locally and save about 1K in the cost. eBay sometimes seems to have less expensive models, I do not have the time to sort through the models, I suggest you contact the companies directly to see what fits your needs. Also a number of Youtube posters have discount codes for American Rotary Phase products, so check them out you can usually save 5-10%. I think one was Vintage Machinery, Bar Z Industrial and there were a few others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMP - Mobile Phase Converter - American Rotary
> 
> 
> AMP Mobile - The AMP Mobile rotary phase converter is plug-and-play ready for a quick and cost-effective installation. Equipped to run 208-250V equipment in three tiers:     Tier 1: 1 Breaker and 1 Receptacle Tier 2: 2 Breakers and 2 Receptacles Tier 3: 3 Breakers and 3 Receptacles     These...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.americanrotary.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Rotary Phase Converter AR10F Floor Unit 10 HP Made is USA  | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for American Rotary Phase Converter AR10F Floor Unit 10 HP Made is USA at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PL-10 Pro-Line 10HP Rotary Phase Converter - Built-In Starter, Made In USA  | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for PL-10 Pro-Line 10HP Rotary Phase Converter - Built-In Starter, Made In USA at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotary Phase Converter - 10 HP - CNC Grade, GP10P4LV  | eBay
> 
> 
> Sizing a Phase Converter. Select the appropriate phase converter. The Idler/ Generator is covered by the manufacture warranty for 2 years. Single Phase Electrical Specs. Horsepower: 10 hp. Three Phase Electrical Specs.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Panel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CP-10 Pro-Line 10HP Rotary Phase Converter Control Panel - Loaded with Features  | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for CP-10 Pro-Line 10HP Rotary Phase Converter Control Panel - Loaded with Features at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phase Converters NL - Single Phase 230V to Three Phase 230V
> 
> 
> We offer a large selection of rotary phase converters, run capacitors, electrical transformers, IEC motors, and single phase to three phase converters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.phoenixphaseconverters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as VFD's it is not just a matter of purchasing one that has the proper capacities but also it is not plug and play, it needs to be integrated into a control system, programmed and the parameters adjusted for the particular unit in order for it to run correctly. You need to integrated the electronic braking with the mechanical brake. In most cases you would need a separate VFD enclosure and then integrate the VFD with the lathe, there are two approaches to this, first is to do what I call is a basic install which is what I have previously outlined for the 1440GT. The other alternative is a full system build that replaces all the machine electronics. At the end of the day, an RPC is about 1/2 the price and much simpler.
> 
> There are very few native 5 Hp VFD's, the only one that I know is the Yaskawa CIMR-VUBA0018FAA which has sufficient inputs and programming features for this application. I would skip the Chinese generic units that make all kinds of claims as to input/output, I have worked with a few of these and the input terminals and design does not support what they claim. Most people buy the next larger size to somewhat compensate for this, and then there is the manuals which are abysmal as well as no support. I have been involved with two builds for this line of lathes, the first one we went with an oversized Hitachi WJ200 3 phase input derated for either single or 3 phase input and the other was a Yaskawa V1000 which was also similarly derated. The models for this application would be the Hitachi WJ200-075LF, Yaskawa CIMR-VU2A0040FAA, which are 10Hp 3 phase input rated units. It is also recommended to use a DC choke to decrease the ripple and noise when used with single phase input. On these models I use the MTE DCA004003 (40A 1 mH), so between the VFD and choke you are pushing 1K, if you do a basic install add about another $500. Also since these are 10Hp VFD's they can draw very high instantaneous currents, as a minimum you would need a 50-60A  240VAC single phase input supply. This is also what you would need for a 10Hp RPC. The Yaskawa CIMR-VU2A0040FAA has a low enough profile that it should be able to fit into the stock machine cabinet with a full build but it is a complicated process, my recollection was the back plate needed to be cut out for the VFD to be mounted and clear the cover. The CIMR-VUBA0018FAA would need a separate enclosure but would not need a DC choke, since it is a native 5 Hp unit.  FYI, on my ERL-1340 with a 3 HP motor I use the CIMR-VU2A0020FAA  which is a 5Hp model, 3 phase input.
> 
> So it is all doable, but an RPC will be more practical to get you up and running with the least cost. As I mentioned, many individuals purchase the control panel and source an enclosed 1750 RPM motor locally.



Thanks again for the detailed response. I am really glad that I chose the RPC. The VFD install sounds very daunting.


----------



## erikmannie

It looks like I need to completely rearrange everything in the shop in order to accommodate this huge machine.

I currently have 5 things attached to the floor with 24 anchor bolts, but I am going to start with a blank slate.

Fortunately, I have 9 carts so that gives me flexibility.

Too bad that there are 2 water heaters in the 2 car garage. That doesn’t help matters.


----------



## erikmannie

It is embarrassing to post this hand drawn layout, but here it is if anybody wants to critique the layout. It is to scale.

The street is at the top of the diagram. I did not show the water heaters that are in the lower right hand corner.

I wonder what is a good width for a walkway. Also, how much room would a big guy need to work between 2 machines?

The welding table is on casters. I don’t want to put any machine tools on casters.

I have 9 carts (which includes the rotary phase converter (marked AMP on the drawing)), so there are 7 carts not shown on the drawing.

The blank “lane” on the right is a lane for parking welding carts.


----------



## 7milesup

Soooooo..... no room for cars?


----------



## Janderso

No room for cars. He still needs to add a horizontal mill, a drill press, shaper and a surface grinder.
Just having fun. You are going to love that lathe.


----------



## erikmannie

7milesup said:


> Soooooo..... no room for cars?


I haven’t owned an automobile for 10 years, primarily because I spend so much on tools and the like. My wife & I share a 2009 minivan. We save so much money that way.

I am crazy stingy about spending money on anything other than tools, tuition, or materials. I don’t think that my family is having very much fun, though.

I just bought a CXA QCTP kit without first checking that this machine has a T slotted compound slide (edit: it does, as seen in photo of machine below). When I put a QCTP on my PM-1030V, it was just a simple remove and replace.

The QCTP kit that I bought comes with a “custom “T”-bolt”, but the supplier didn’t ask the model of my machine. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do with that information: 
	

			Aloris Super-Precision 7-Piece Set CXA, 3-SET
		






Edit: The Aloris CXA QCTP comes with a T-nut which, while threaded in the middle, requires the purchaser to mill to the size of his or her machine. I did this, and it was very straightforward. The Aloris bolt is also (1) Imperial, and (2) larger than the bolt that came with the 4 position tool post from Taiwan. So don’t expect to use the T-nut or toolpost bolt that comes with an Asian lathe.


----------



## erikmannie

Looking at the machine, I think that tool post is going to bolt right on:


----------



## erikmannie

Now I realize that the 3/4” bolt on the QCTP will probably thread into the “T”-bolt that comes with the lathe.

I am curious to see if the dimensions of lathe “T”-bolts are standardized to the point that I can just remove the factory “T”-bolt and replace it with the Aloris “T”-bolt.

Note: See Edit in Post #72. I used the Aloris T-nut and toolpost bolt.


----------



## mksj

Probably not, the Aloris tool post thread is imperial, the SunMaster (ERL, RML, TL) come with metric lantern posts. So you will either need to make a new tool post (which is what I did on my ERL) or machine the foot to fit your new machine. I felt it was easier to do the tool post as the foot was not long enough on my Dorian.


----------



## erikmannie

I am very happy that I chose the 10HP American Rotary AMP rotary phase converter (primarily because plug & play suits my current skill set), but a friend of mine said that he would have chosen a VFD.

Edit: The RPC was perfect, except I should have chosen a 30A circuit breaker! The 20A breaker trips in the highest speed (1800 RPM).


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> Probably not, the Aloris tool post thread is imperial, the SunMaster (ERL, RML, TL) come with metric lantern posts. So you will either need to make a new tool post (which is what I did on my ERL) or machine the foot to fit your new machine. I felt it was easier to do the tool post as the foot was not long enough on my Dorian.



Oh, my! There’s a project to put on the list.


----------



## ACHiPo

erikmannie said:


> Doing a very small amount of research online, I wonder if this would serve:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: American Rotary Phase Converter AR10F Floor Unit 10 HP Made is USA : Electronics
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: American Rotary Phase Converter AR10F Floor Unit 10 HP Made is USA : Electronics
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


I just bought and installed a 10 HP RPC from North American Phase Converters  








						Home
					

WE'LL GET YOU POWERED...  Prior to today, you may have never thought about a phase converter or why you would ever need one. But now, you need one. Figuring out what type and size you need can be confusing; we get it. We’ve helped thousands of business owners and would be honored to help




					www.northamericaphaseconverters.com
				



I recommend it if you need 3 phase.  A VFD is cheaper and has some advantages if it can work for you.


----------



## Janderso

Erik,
Spending on tuition, tools and materials, although admirable, life and family are important.
My wife made Me take vacations With our two boys and we still go to Europe and Mexico.
The memories are wonderful but that London trip would have paid for a PM1440GT with DRO smiley face.


----------



## Buffalo21

My next door neighbor, both school teachers, took out a $35,000 second mortgage on their house so they could go to Japan, Australia and New Zealand. I hope their memories are solid gold, because they will be paying for them for quite a while. I‘d never do it, but after my job, roughly 77 countries in about 6 yrs, i have no desire to go anywheres, anymore.


----------



## 7milesup

Side track here...
My brothers wanted me to go Elk hunting in Colorado maybe 8 years ago or so.  I had enough preference points to go wherever I wanted.  It was going to be about$6000 but I did not want to spend the money.  Figured I could spend that money on tools or something "tangible".  My one brother died 3 years from brain cancer.  I deeply regret not going on that elk hunt with them.


----------



## erikmannie

I know a lot of guys who take their families on vacation every year, and they have very few tools. However, maybe they don’t want tools.

I am sure that if I found myself traipsing around Europe, I would wish that I were home on a machine.

For years, I have been saying no to even rudimentary purchases (e.g. a vehicle) so that I could buy tools. However, we are taking my granddaughter to Disneyland in the Spring.

I always ask my wife & youngest son if they want to go out in the garage and have some fun, but they are not interested.

I live with two of my grandsons, and sometimes they say yes, and those have been some of my best days. I taught one to TIG on titanium, and the other to gas weld and braze on mild steel.


----------



## StevSmar

Last year I started putting new lights in the basement, when I opened up the 42 circuit panel I found that the electrician had saved himself $20 by putting in a panel with a 32 circuit bus. His sticker from 20 years ago was on the panel, I really wanted to call to thank him for the surprise... The panel was also only 100A, I guess I should be thankful that he was forced to use a 200A utility meter by our electrical company.

Consequently, my project for last year was to install a 200A sub panel. If I really need more capacity I’ve set the new panel up so it can become the main panel, and the 100A will become the sub-panel. Based on the maximum consumption the electrical company has recorded, I think I have enough remaining capacity for when I connect my new lathe this winter.


----------



## StevSmar

erikmannie said:


> I am sure that if I found myself traipsing around Europe, I would wish that I were home on a machine...
> For years, I have been saying no to even rudimentary purchases (e.g. a vehicle) so that I could buy tools...
> I live with two of my grandsons, and sometimes they say yes, and those have been some of my best days.


The happiest I’ve ever been in my life is when I’ve had memorable experiences. Making things I’m proud of, going somewhere unusual for holidays, spending quality time with family or friends, doing things which are enjoyable for both my wife and I.

I like to remind myself that for everything I gain, there is something I will lose- life is full of difficult choices.

What I don’t enjoy is being asked to participate in things that bring me no joy, even though they are enjoyable to others- I’ve yet to understand why I’m supposed to do this, apparently it’s in the fine print of the marriage certificate...LOL.


----------



## Aaron_W

erikmannie said:


> It is embarrassing to post this hand drawn layout, but here it is if anybody wants to critique the layout. It is to scale.
> 
> The street is at the top of the diagram. I did not show the water heaters that are in the lower right hand corner.
> 
> I wonder what is a good width for a walkway. Also, how much room would a big guy need to work between 2 machines?
> 
> The welding table is on casters. I don’t want to put any machine tools on casters.
> 
> I have 9 carts (which includes the rotary phase converter (marked AMP on the drawing)), so there are 7 carts not shown on the drawing.
> 
> The blank “lane” on the right is a lane for parking welding carts.
> View attachment 329398



I think you will be ok with 36" aisles, I doubt that the center walkway of my shop is more than 36" with machines on both sides. As I recall you have a door on the left side near the area marked bicycle repair, and you've left a walkway for the big door so you can get long stock into the garage. 

Don't forget to account for access to comfortably operate the tail stock on the 10x30. Also think about room to run stock through the head of the 16x60. I assume the AMP cart is low enough not to interfere with stock sticking out, so you have 2-3 feet which is probably plenty of room.

Personally I would have the mill facing out (towards the left side of the drawing. That gives you a nice open area to work and by moving the table to its extreme range of travel can add space to either side as well as giving you some room for stock longer than the table. This is what I have to do to get access to the sides and back of my mill. This would also give you some room on either side if you were working on something longer than the table, or offset to one side with an overhang. 
It looks like that location also gives you a little room for expansion if you ever outgrow the PM25. My mill has an overhang at the back for the motor, so I placed some low shelves behind it for small metal stock, which uses that otherwise wasted space. 

Probably an in the future change, but you can get more space by going to tankless water heaters. I have had one since 2012 and we love it. It takes up no space as we mounted it on an exterior wall, but even if you stick with the same location, they are much smaller than traditional tanked water heaters and can be mounted high on the wall opening up floor space. I don't recall the size of yours but assuming 40-50 gallon with the number of people in your house, you would probably gain 6 feet or more of floor space. Water heaters don't last forever so maybe something to think about when it is time for replacement.


----------



## erikmannie

Aaron_W said:


> I think you will be ok with 36" aisles, I doubt that the center walkway of my shop is more than 36" with machines on both sides. As I recall you have a door on the left side near the area marked bicycle repair, and you've left a walkway for the big door so you can get long stock into the garage.
> 
> Don't forget to account for access to comfortably operate the tail stock on the 10x30. Also think about room to run stock through the head of the 16x60. I assume the AMP cart is low enough not to interfere with stock sticking out, so you have 2-3 feet which is probably plenty of room.
> 
> Personally I would have the mill facing out (towards the left side of the drawing. That gives you a nice open area to work and by moving the table to its extreme range of travel can add space to either side as well as giving you some room for stock longer than the table. This is what I have to do to get access to the sides and back of my mill. This would also give you some room on either side if you were working on something longer than the table, or offset to one side with an overhang.
> It looks like that location also gives you a little room for expansion if you ever outgrow the PM25. My mill has an overhang at the back for the motor, so I placed some low shelves behind it for small metal stock, which uses that otherwise wasted space.
> 
> Probably an in the future change, but you can get more space by going to tankless water heaters. I have had one since 2012 and we love it. It takes up no space as we mounted it on an exterior wall, but even if you stick with the same location, they are much smaller than traditional tanked water heaters and can be mounted high on the wall opening up floor space. I don't recall the size of yours but assuming 40-50 gallon with the number of people in your house, you would probably gain 6 feet or more of floor space. Water heaters don't last forever so maybe something to think about when it is time for replacement.



Great timing because I am doing all of this today & tomorrow.

I will rotate the mill based on your counsel. I am also going to push it up against the wall. I will use the fact that the table on the mill can move 9” in either direction to my advantage.

The entire center of the workshop will be kept clear for when I work on something huge (I have a 12’ X 5” steel gate on the project list).

I am allocating one 33% strip parallel to the street for each of (1) machining, (2) welding, and (3) bike repair. The bicycle repair strip has the water heaters covered with bike stuff as seen below:


----------



## wrmiller

StevSmar said:


> What I don’t enjoy is being asked to participate in things that bring me no joy, even though they are enjoyable to others- I’ve yet to understand why I’m supposed to do this, apparently it’s in the fine print of the marriage certificate...LOL.



While the wife and I will compromise for each other to a degree, if I really don't want to do something, I don't. And I could care less what other people think about this. My wife knows I'm not much of a people person, so she gives me a fair amount of latitude regarding some things. 

Back on topic: I really like the peg board idea. Very cool!


----------



## Aaron_W

erikmannie said:


> Great timing because I am doing all of this today & tomorrow.
> 
> I will rotate the mill based on your counsel. I am also going to push it up against the wall. I will use the fact that the table on the mill can move 9” in either direction to my advantage.
> 
> The entire center of the workshop will be kept clear for when I work on something huge (I have a 12’ X 5” steel gate on the project list).
> 
> I am allocating one 33% strip parallel to the street for each of (1) machining, (2) welding, and (3) bike repair. The bicycle repair strip has the water heaters covered with bike stuff as seen below:
> View attachment 329476



So that is why I didn't remember seeing the water heaters, clever.

I measured and my main walkway is actually 4 feet wide, 5 feet in a few spots but I have 4x4" support posts running down the center of that, so in places there is only 24-30". So 36" might be a little tight, but I measured that off of some of my machines and I think it is still a functional amount of room to work. It looks like you will have plenty of room for working on the 16x60".

This is how I have my vertical mill set up, the 8520 is a 6x24" mill, so it is very similar in size to the PM25, just arranged differently having a knee go up and down instead of the head. The space needed for the table travel leaves open space below. The red Milwaukee boxes and grey tote are tooling for the horizontal mill just to the left. I'm going to build a cart for them, but they will live there in otherwise wasted space. The speaker is just hanging out, it will be mounted above. Anyway you can see how it is tucked in there as tight as I can, then moving the table left or right gives me access to either side or to get behind it. The ram on my mill moves in and out and side to side, so I need room behind it. With the motor on top, and no ram I don't think you have that concern with the PM25, so can probably put it pretty close to the wall. Moving the table all the way over would also give you a few more inches when using your PM1030.


----------



## erikmannie

This is what I came up with for now. I am happy with everything on it except the placement of the mill and small lathe.

I think I’m going to change it and put the small lathe against the wall next to the mill.


----------



## erikmannie

I like this better. I moved the small lathe & mill against the wall.

This drawing is to scale.


----------



## Aaron_W

erikmannie said:


> I think I’m going to change it and put the small lathe against the wall next to the mill.



That looks like a good plan and it might even leave you a little more space in the middle of the room.


----------



## erikmannie

On my last two drawings, The crosshatched areas contain items that are bolted down with anchor bolts or, in the case of the PM-1660TL, the equivalent of such.

The AMP rotary phase converter, welding table and all welding carts and tool chests are on casters.

I made this plan with little consideration for cart and tool chest parking.


----------



## ddickey

Lots of Park Tool tools there and a dishing gauge. Nice.


----------



## mksj

Nice setup for working on bikes, I have been biking for 50+ years, and seems these days one needs a much wider assortment of tools to work on the newer bikes. These days I ride more MTB and also have one adapted for paved pathways and streets, the full suspension takes a lot of the fatigue out of riding.

On the discussion of VFD vs. RPC, the VFD is more expensive vs. a conventional RPC, I indicated that it would be about 1.5K to do a VD install with using the Hitachi or Yaskawa VFD with a basic install. I have helped numerous people do the basic install on their lathe, but it is not a turnkey solution and even with all the directions people make mistakes. There are also less expensive RPC options, typical 10 Hp units run around 1K, or much less if you want to piece it together. The AMP is a more expensive RPC option, but it is very quiet/compact, does not require a sub panel, or any significant wiring. I have done 100's of VFD installs, on the lathe it is not plug and play. Above 3Hp, the cost of the VFD's go up steeply and require a bit more complexity in their install and setup. If you have the time and knowledge, then it is an alternate 3 phase power option. It is machine specific were and RPC can run multiple 3 phase machines, and the AMP is small and easily moved. One of the biggest complaints about RPC's is the noise of the idler motor, some are open style, and the 3600 RPM idlers are very annoying in the background. Better RPC's use lower RPM motors some are sealed TEFC. So different choices based on the circumstances.


----------



## erikmannie

I understand that with any VFD there would have been no way to keep the foot brake on the PM-1660TL. This development by itself would make me very disappointed.

The lathes that we had at school had a foot brake, and I really enjoyed incorporating my foot into the work.

I also like to give my floors a deep scrubbing now & again, and I found the fact that the AMP is on wheels very attractive, as well as the fact that it is made in the USA & 60 dB max.


----------



## Buffalo21

erikmannie said:


> I understand that with any VFD there would have been no way to keep the foot brake on the PM-1660TL. This development by itself would make me very disappointed.
> 
> The lathes that we had at school had a foot brake, and I really enjoyed incorporating my foot into the work.
> 
> I also like to give my floors a deep scrubbing now & again, and I found the fact that the AMP is on wheels very attractive, as well as the fact that it is made in the USA & 60 dB max.



erik,

I have a couple of friends with VFDs and have foot brakes..... will have to look into it, how it any different than an E-stop switch??


----------



## ddickey

Mine has a factory installed vfd and I have a foot brake.


----------



## erikmannie

Buffalo21 said:


> erik,
> 
> I have a couple of friends with VFDs and have foot brakes..... will have to look into it, how it any different than an E-stop switch??


I am not very adept at electronics, but I read that it was because the E-stop switch is electrical and the mechanical foot brake is mechanical.

I will try to find out where I read that the mechanical foot brake ends up disabled on a VFD install.

Edit: Now that I have the machine, I see that the foot brake stops the chuck very quickly, while the E-stop merely cuts power and the chuck “coasts” to a stop.


----------



## ddickey

It would be unless a switch was installed.
Hold on, there has to be a switch anyway.
This might be an interesting thread for you.








						Foot Brake For The Pm 1340gt
					

I'm so used to a foot brake on lathes, that I decided to see what I could come up with for the 1340GT. I had a couple of foot switches laying around work so I incorporated it into my lathe. I just rewired the microswitch inside the foot petal to NC. Then I just wired it in series with my E-stop...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> It would be unless a switch was installed.
> Hold on, there has to be a switch anyway.



I was wrong about losing the foot brake with a VFD.


----------



## wrmiller

There is a programmable in the VFD that turns off braking, allowing the spindle to free-wheel. I do this on my mill to allow usage of the mechanical brake.


----------



## mksj

Per what Bill indicated. This is outlined in the 1440GT VFD basic install (adding a dual pole brake switch) and needs to be incorporated into the VFD control system. When the manual foot brake is depressed with the stock control system it breaks power to the contactors and to a power relay thus stopping the motor run command and allowing you to stop the lathe manually. In order to reset the power relay which provides power to the contactors, the spindle switch needs to be in the stop position. With a VFD system, you issue what is known as a base block or free run command which disconnects the VFD output section to the motor. This stops the VFD running command as long as the command is present, but if directly wired to the VFD input via the brake switch, the VFD run command will restart the lathe when the foot brake is released. A very dangerous scenario.  So when using a VFD you need to both stop the spindle run command and issue a free run command, and also have it not restart after you release the foot brake. This is typically done with a latching relay. Below is a VFD control system for a 1640TL, not inclusive of the front panel control, speed and RPM controls. Not what I would consider a simple or inexpensive build, the parts alone were close to 2K and that was paying far below list price for many of the parts. One can see both a power relay and a brake relay, there are many interlocks and redundancy in the controls. This system was run off of a master RPC for the shop so we were bale to get by with a 3.7kW VFD, if single phase input the VFD would be twice the cost and larger.







Stock control board


----------



## erikmannie

@mksj Thank you for the comprehensive explanation!


----------



## erikmannie

I got up at 3 AM and put the bike repair stand, the mill, and the small lathe in place.


----------



## ddickey

That chainring looks huge.
What are the certificates for?


----------



## erikmannie

That chainring is 70 tooth. The certificates are from United Bicycle Institute for Bicycle Repair & Framebuilding.

I put the welding table & “welder in use” in place. These casters are temporary.


----------



## erikmannie

Here is where the PM-1660TL will go. The 20” X 20” chest is in place of the rotary phase converter (which is a cart). The area filled with blue boxes on the ground, the workbench and the welding carts is where the big lathe sits.


----------



## erikmannie

The lathe will be right up against the garage door:


----------



## erikmannie

Here is where I am thinking about bolting in the small lathe and mill. I saved room to wheel in 4 of my welding carts behind them.


----------



## erikmannie

I moved the bicycle repair stand further away from the wall because there is a road bike that I hang up on the ceiling behind there.

I have two ground anchors down there that someone working on a bike might trip over, but when the repair stand is not in use I will park 4 bikes there.


----------



## erikmannie

Here’s another view of the bicycle repair stand:


----------



## erikmannie

And here is the repair stand all crowded with bikes. I thought that my bikes weren’t going to fit in the garage anymore.


----------



## wrmiller

erikmannie said:


> Here is where I am thinking about bolting in the small lathe and mill. I saved room to wheel in 4 of my welding carts behind them.
> View attachment 329558



To this day I still regret selling my PM25 and my little SB1001 lathe. You'll be glad you are keeping yours, I'm sure.


----------



## erikmannie

wrmiller said:


> To this day I still regret selling my PM25 and my little SB1001 lathe. You'll be glad you are keeping yours, I'm sure.


Yes, I am keeping the PM-1030V because it has never caused me a single problem.

I am done putting things in place. Here is one wall: small lathe, mill, 4 welding carts, one tool chest & the water heaters covered with bike stuff. I am saving space on the wall because I will go back to school ASAP.

I can walk behind the machine tools (if I move the carts) to sweep, paint or access the tools on the wall.


----------



## erikmannie

Here is the street side “wall” which is no more than a rotary phase converter (wood boxes in place of), PM-1660TL (blue boxes on floor & workbench in place of) and the other tool chest:


----------



## erikmannie

Here is the house side wall: oversize bike tools, tube benders, bike repair stand & bikes:


----------



## erikmannie

Here is the last wall and then I will finally stop uploading pictures of my shop: welding table, 2 welding carts, 220V outlet, and back to the rotary phase converter:


----------



## Buffalo21

Egads, that’s a lot of bike stuff.

roughly 50 yrs ago, I worked in my brother’s Western Auto store assembling bikes, wagons, wheelbarrows, mowers etc, etc. He was basically the sole supplier for bikes for roughly a 50 mile diameter area. He sold and I assembled boat loads of bikes, during my high school yrs.


----------



## erikmannie

@Buffalo21 That’s a lot of turning wrenches. Good times.


----------



## ddickey

Did you fab those fat bike frames? Material?


----------



## Winegrower

I like your hydraulic paper towel dispenser.   However I bought 500 blue shop towels that came from Pakistan.   I tell people that I use Persian shop towels.


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> Did you fab those fat bike frames? Material?


I made 2 of the 6 frames. They are both 4130 chromoly; one is brazed, and one is TIG.

They have 2 week classes at UBI (in Oregon) where you make your own frame. The instructor (Richard Bernoulli) was the most unhelpful instructor that I have ever encountered, but I recommend the school.


----------



## ddickey

There's a tech school in my town that teaches frame building.


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> There's a tech school in my town that teaches frame building.


What is the name of the school?


----------



## ddickey

__





						MSC Southeast - Bicycle Design and Fabrication
					

Bicycle Design and Fabrication programs and degrees at Minnesota State College Southeast with campuses in Winona and Red Wing.




					www.southeastmn.edu


----------



## jbolt

Congrats on the lathe. If I ever upgrade my PM1440GT it will be a 1660. 

On placement, I would consider moving the lathe to the right side to allow more room to load longer stock through the head and have better access to the gear cover.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## Kiwi Canuck

Looks like you have a very well equipped shop there and the new lathe will be a nice addition, I'm impressed by how clean and organized your shop is.

I was a little skeptical when I first read this post and was a bit judgmental when I read that you intended to borrow to buy the new lathe at what is a very steep interest rate, but I get it now, not that I would do it but I get it.

Hopefully you can find better financing rates in time, and put the savings toward tools.

On the topic of bike building, we have a class available near my home by Paul Brodie, founder of Brodie Cycles.








						Bicycle Technology > Bike frame building 101
					






					www.ufv.ca
				




He now builds replica Excelsior Flat Tracker motorcycles in his garage, which at $139,000 US each they are bit rich for me though.


			Excelsior Homepage | Flashback Fabrications Ltd.
		


Check out his replica of an 1888 Whippet.


			1888 Whippet Replica | Flashback Fabrications Ltd.
		


One last bike builder link, this one I've followed from Garage Journal, 44 Bikes, a great thread documenting the start of his bike building business.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112578&highlight=industrial+design

Enjoy.

David.


----------



## MtnBiker

erikmannie said:


> Our breaker box is 100% full, so I cannot add another 220V outlet.



Same. Our electrician added 4 double 120s and then passed a 100 amp line into the garage for a new 100 amp sub-panel. We have plenty of capacity power-wise (gas oven, water heater, all LED lighting, etc.). The upside is we put a Sense on the sub-panel so we can monitor power usage for the business separate from the residence. It was a very clean install - all behind the outside panel so no perforation of the stucco. Now we'll just run conduit and go nuts.


----------



## erikmannie

My new in box Aloris CXA toolpost kit arrived today & literally every single component is either missing or damaged.

The Seller is dansdiscounttools on eBay. They put the “T”-nut and toolpost handle only in poly bags. Both of those are scratched and scuffed, particularly the “T”-nut. The toolpost had about 1/16” foam protecting it and it was punctured, causing a scratch or two on the new tool post.

The kit was supposed to include six tool holders, but there were NONE in the box. There was, however, about two 15-18” long tears in the box that had been re-taped. Looks like the heavy tool posts popped out and didn’t get put back in the box by USPS.

There was a note on the box from USPS that said they were sorry about the damage, and that they hope everything is OK. It’s not.


----------



## erikmannie

I put in a request for return, and I will post here how it turns out. The order was $1,180 and I have nothing usable.

It looks like this box had a very bad mishap at USPS.


----------



## BGHansen

erikmannie said:


> I put in a request for return, and I will post here how it turns out. The order was $1,170 and I have nothing usable.
> 
> It looks like this box had a very bad mishap at USPS.


Or crappy packing job by the seller.  I picked up a set of 3/4" drive sockets years ago off eBay.  Box showed up damaged with one socket in it.  Paid under $50 including shipping so filed an insurance claim.  They apparently had just loose set the sockets in the box.

I've won a number of auctions from eBay seller stm_surplus who does an EXCELLENT job packing heavy stuff.  Most recently I picked up around eight 10" lengths of 1 1/4" 1018.  It was double-boxed with the first box crammed full of paper & filler so the metal couldn't move.

Not used to this statement in this manner, but I'm sorry for your loss.

Bruce


----------



## kb58

erikmannie said:


> ...The instructor (Richard Bernoulli) was the most unhelpful instructor that I have ever encountered...


Circled the drain as an instructor, did he? Sorry, couldn't help it.


----------



## erikmannie

BGHansen said:


> Or crappy packing job by the seller.  I picked up a set of 3/4" drive sockets years ago off eBay.  Box showed up damaged with one socket in it.  Paid under $50 including shipping so filed an insurance claim.  They apparently had just loose set the sockets in the box.
> 
> I've won a number of auctions from eBay seller stm_surplus who does an EXCELLENT job packing heavy stuff.  Most recently I picked up around eight 10" lengths of 1 1/4" 1018.  It was double-boxed with the first box crammed full of paper & filler so the metal couldn't move.
> 
> Not used to this statement in this manner, but I'm sorry for your loss.
> 
> Bruce


For years, my job at UPS was doing damage inspections. You have to pack it well enough to sustain a 7’ fall at the worst possible angle.

Also, sharp things poking in, and heavy items popping out, never to return to the box.

A lot of Murphy’s Law comes into play.


----------



## matthewsx

erikmannie said:


> For years, my job at UPS was doing damage inspections. You have to pack it well enough to sustain a 7’ fall at the worst possible angle.
> 
> Also, sharp things poking in, and heavy items popping out, never to return to the box.
> 
> A lot of Murphy’s Law comes into play.



I learned very quickly when I had my kart engine business how important packaging is. Your seller was lazy or reckless when packing the toolpost. Anyone who'd packed something like that more than once knows to cram the box as full of newspaper as they can get it + wrapping every heavy part in an extra layer of cardboard. The post office provides those packing materials for free so there's really no excuse, they are about to learn a very expensive lesson....

John


----------



## erikmannie

matthewsx said:


> I learned very quickly when I had my kart engine business how important packaging is. Your seller was lazy or reckless when packing the toolpost. Anyone who'd packed something like that more than once knows to cram the box as full of newspaper as they can get it + wrapping every heavy part in an extra layer of cardboard. The post office provides those packing materials for free so there's really no excuse, they are about to learn a very expensive lesson....
> 
> John


This was an NIB Aloris toolpost kit, so I don’t know why the toolpost just had one layer 1/16” foam around it & then placed in a poly bag. Where is the factory box for this NIB item?! I wonder how Aloris ships these from the factory.

It was a very stupid packing job. I paid $65.11 for UPS Ground shipping & they shipped it in a USPS Flat Rate box. Anybody with any sense would have suspected that the heavy part could pop out, which isn’t going to do the part any good.

I used eBay to request a return and I filed a case with PayPal. It has been about 3 hours, and the Seller has not responded nor did they answer their phone.


----------



## erikmannie

Regarding the PM-1660TL, PM says that they get it mid-August & then they need to install a DRO. The DRO is also backordered.

I won’t have saved up quite enough money by then, but my wife said that she will bail me out if she is able.

The 10HP American Rotary AMP is enroute via FedEx freight. I have to work every weekday so my Dad is going to come by and receive the freight delivery. Hopefully that will go better than the toolpost kit!

I received all of my drop-in anchors & Grade 8 hardware. I will bolt down the PM-25MV, PM-1030V and bike repair stand tomorrow.


----------



## matthewsx

erikmannie said:


> This was an NIB Aloris toolpost kit, so I don’t know why the toolpost just had one layer 1/16” foam around it & then placed in a poly bag. Where is the factory box for this NIB item?! I wonder how Aloris ships these from the factory.
> 
> It was a very stupid packing job. I paid $65.11 for UPS Ground shipping & they shipped it in a USPS Flat Rate box. Anybody with any sense would have suspected that the heavy part could pop out, which isn’t going to do the part any good.
> 
> I used eBay to request a return and I filed a case with PayPal. It has been about 3 hours, and the Seller has not responded nor did they answer their phone.



It will get sorted, perhaps they simply shipped the wrong thing.

They appear to be a real company operating out of St. Louis so maybe just a case of a new employee being careless. I learned the hard way though that when you file a claim with PayPay they can take a long time getting it sorted out compared with eBay which doesn't make a lot of sense.

Hopefully the phase converter will be packaged a little better, the companies that make the stuff tend to know how to make sure it arrives intact....

John


----------



## erikmannie

Here is the American Rotary 10HP AMP invoice. My outlet is 220V, 40A.


----------



## ACHiPo

Bummer!


----------



## wrmiller

That is NOT the box a NIB Aloris should show up in. Someone removed it from the original packaging and put it in a cheap USPS box. Or maybe they never had the original box. And you paid for UPS, and they pocketed most of that money and sent it USPS. Sounds really fishy to me. The good news is that you will likely get your money back from PayPal.


----------



## Liljoebrshooter

Is this the seller that resells returned items at a discount?
Joe


----------



## erikmannie

Liljoebrshooter said:


> Is this the seller that resells returned items at a discount?
> Joe



That would explain the lack of packaging. Advertised a NIB, I would expect factory packaging.

This place is shady. They don’t answer the phone, and the “voicemail box is unattended”.

They have yet to respond to my emails...


----------



## Liljoebrshooter

I would have to say if you don't buy something from an authorized Aloris dealer you are on your own.
This applies to anything you buy.

Joe


----------



## erikmannie

Liljoebrshooter said:


> I would have to say if you don't buy something from an authorized Aloris dealer you are on your own.
> This applies to anything you buy.
> 
> Joe


That is my takeaway from this, as well. Here is the eBay listing which includes my negative feedback:









						Aloris CXA Quick Change Lathe Tool Post 7 PC Holder Set #3-set for sale online | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Aloris CXA Quick Change Lathe Tool Post 7 PC Holder Set #3-set at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				




I should have bought from Ajax, Amazon or Aloris, but I tried to save $72 and look how it turned out.

Hopefully the Seller or PayPal will make it right.


----------



## wrmiller

erikmannie said:


> That is my takeaway from this, as well. Here is the eBay listing which includes my negative feedback:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aloris CXA Quick Change Lathe Tool Post 7 PC Holder Set #3-set for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Aloris CXA Quick Change Lathe Tool Post 7 PC Holder Set #3-set at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I should have bought from Ajax, Amazon or Aloris, but I tried to save $72 and look how it turned out.
> 
> Hopefully the Seller or PayPal will make it right.



I'm hoping that PayPal will make it right for you. Especially when you tell them the seller is non-responsive to calls and emails. eBay needs to be contacted also, and they may even ban the seller. When buying high-dollar stuff on eBay, I too look for authorized dealers. Hope this turns out OK.


----------



## erikmannie

I have been mounting drop-in anchor bolts to relocate machines in the garage.

Here are the female threads ready for the PM-1030V stand:


----------



## erikmannie

Here is this part of the shop done. All to make room for the PM-1660TL:


----------



## NCjeeper

E-bay has been great to me when I have a seller that sends me the wrong stuff. If the seller plays MIA then E-bay will take the initiative and email me a return label to print off and send it back. Once the tracking number shows it has arrived E-bay sends me a refund. This has happened about 5 times in the last few years. Hopefully your refund will be just as quick.


----------



## erikmannie

NCjeeper said:


> E-bay has been great to me when I have a seller that sends me the wrong stuff. If the seller plays MIA then E-bay will take the initiative and email me a return label to print off and send it back. Once the tracking number shows it has arrived E-bay sends me a refund. This has happened about 5 times in the last few years. Hopefully your refund will be just as quick.


Was it for something expensive? The Seller still has not responded to multiple messages. It might come down to PayPal.

In any case, I won’t be making any more large purchases on eBay anymore.


----------



## erikmannie

Putting in drop-in anchors & bolts is exhausting, sweaty work.

Here is the last tool, a bicycle repair stand:


----------



## Aaron_W

erikmannie said:


> Was it for something expensive? The Seller still has not responded to multiple messages. It might come down to PayPal.
> 
> In any case, I won’t be making any more large purchases on eBay anymore.



I wouldn't write off ebay over this, I've bought hundreds of items with several in the $200-1000 range with very few problem and none that I couldn't get resolved with the seller. Although I've never had to resort to Ebay / Paypal to resolve an issue they have a reputation of making things right for the buyer. In fact some sellers complain that ebay always sides with the buyer.  

I am very selective with the buyers I will use though, on something more than $100 or so they need to have near perfect feedback, and some history behind them to get my money.


----------



## NCjeeper

Have you started a case with E-bay yet since the seller wont respond to your messages?


----------



## erikmannie

I did everything that I could. I requested a Return on eBay, and opened up a Dispute with PayPal. I also left negative feedback.


----------



## erikmannie

The eBay Seller got back to me and said that they are going to make it right. I will post the final result of this eBay drama here.


----------



## wrmiller

erikmannie said:


> The eBay Seller got back to me and said that they are going to make it right. I will post the final result of this eBay drama here.



Ebay probably threatened them. It's good that you're going to get this resolved. Hopefully. Fingers crossed...


----------



## Winegrower

I had a $150 dispute with a seller, complained to eBay, in literally 10 minutes i got notified my PayPal account had been credited the whole amount.


----------



## erikmannie

Dan’s Discount Tools in St. Louis came through big time. They shipped out a replacement the next business day, and I received it today. Everything is hunky dory, and it was particularly well packaged.


----------



## erikmannie

I received the American Rotary 10 HP AMP rotary phase converter, but it is still on the pallet. I won’t get into it until I finish my work week.


----------



## pontiac428

Erik, you're gonna like what you get in that box.  I am one who derives a lot of self-worth out of accomplishment, but I decided to pass on the complexities of VFD retrofits because rewiring stuff just isn't that interesting to me compared to what I could be doing with my tools.  So I went the RPC route, because it's literally a no-brainer and it runs transparently (with a VFD, I would have lost my essential 2-speed capability to boot).  American Rotary makes it easy and the quality is there.


----------



## AlanB

What a monster. It's a bit more work but personally I'd rewire for VFD and gain the variability, soft start, torque control, savings in shop space, etc. Garage shop space is extremely valuable and being able to crawl and change speed on the fly is very important to me. When my new first lathe arrived many years ago the motor blew up immediately and I ended up putting a treadmill DC motor and controller on it because they were cheap and available at the time, and I hadn't become familiar with VFDs yet. They finally sent me a new AC motor which is still in the box, and I've never been interested in going back. I do a variety things on my lathe like winding line onto reels that could not be done safely, accurately and efficiently without the variable speed. To each his own, it's a personal choice.


----------



## erikmannie

AlanB said:


> What a monster. It's a bit more work but personally I'd rewire for VFD and gain the variability, soft start, torque control, savings in shop space, etc. Garage shop space is extremely valuable and being able to crawl and change speed on the fly is very important to me. When my new first lathe arrived many years ago the motor blew up immediately and I ended up putting a treadmill DC motor and controller on it because they were cheap and available at the time, and I hadn't become familiar with VFDs yet. They finally sent me a new AC motor which is still in the box, and I've never been interested in going back. I do a variety things on my lathe like winding line onto reels that could not be done safely, accurately and efficiently without the variable speed. To each his own, it's a personal choice.


I feel like I am already committed here with the ARM RPC. I will almost certainly buy a large PM lathe in a few years, and I plan on the 3 phase lathe & mill sharing the ARM (rotary phase converter on a cart).

I definitely get that a VFD adds functionality and options, but if I had native 3 phase power you can bet that I would just plug these machines into the outlet and call it good.

I will leave my mind open to a VFD after I retire because I plan on going to SRJC for an AA in electronics. With my work schedule, I have precious little time in the shop and I want to start cutting metal ASAP.


----------



## erikmannie

I am so low on funds here that I am going to have to go old school and grind HSS blanks for my turning, facing & chamfering.

I have CXA tool holders so would I buy 3/4” X 3/4” blanks? I want to buy quality HSS. Any recommendations on where to buy quality material? I’ve seen blanks on eBay manufactured in Czechoslovakia and Canada.


----------



## Aukai

Do you know what type of material you are going to work on the most? I have gotten all of my stuff from Ebay, and only look for the brand names that are recommended here. I don't know if this will be helpful to you, but I found this interesting...
The Traditional Tools Group (Inc.) -- Document View


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> Do you know what type of material you are going to work on the most? I have gotten all of my stuff from Ebay, and only look for the brand names that are recommended here. I don't know if this will be helpful to you, but I found this interesting...
> The Traditional Tools Group (Inc.) -- Document View


That is a super interesting link!

I almost always work on mild steel. I had hoped to get some quality tool holders like this, but I don’t have the funds:





__





						Aloris Double-Lock Tool Holder ADS6-3
					






					www.aloris.com
				




Isn’t using home ground HSS tool bits a valid way to save money, with little or no penalty assuming that I grind them to spec?


----------



## Aukai

Once you do a couple HSS blanks it gets easier to figure out how to grind the geometry. The insert tools are nice too, but you'll get up and running if you get blanks to shape, or find some pre made blanks. Curtis is very kind, and helpful to dumb animals(me) when dealing with inserts, tools, and types, he's very easy to talk to.
Lathe inserts .com


----------



## erikmannie

I see that 3/4” is the maximum height for a tool bit in a standard CXA tool holder.

I also see that the width of the slot is 5/8”. So a 3/4” wide tool bit would stick out 1/8”. I wonder if I should use 5/8” X 5/8” bits.

For financial reasons, I will also probably have to use a T-shaped HSS parting blade for parting and grooving.


----------



## erikmannie

I have bought these brands of kits from PM for my 1 HP lathe with an AXA toolpost:



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/58-turning-34-boring-tool-set/
		


It was nice to know that all of the angles are correct. I am just not sure if I should use a 5/8” or 3/4” shank.

Another reservation that I have about HSS tool bits is that I would have to reset the tool height every time I sharpen the bit. With the inserts, I set the height once and it stays good for months.


----------



## Aukai

Can't answer the size for the bit, but probably better. My holders are 1/2 to 5/8, and 3/8 blanks work well. I have done well parting with the T, and P blades.
I do it all the time, use a tool height gauge, find out your exact tool height measurement, and turn one. there are examples online, and someone here can help too, if you don't have one.


----------



## ddickey

What about brazed tools?
What's the slot height for the parting tool holder?


----------



## Liljoebrshooter

So you are spending 20k on a lathe and electric stuff and can't buy tooling?

Joe


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> What about brazed tools?
> What's the slot height for the parting tool holder?



Regarding brazed carbide tooling, I learned not to buy cheap ones on eBay.

The height is 3/4”, and it looks like it calls for a carbide insert parting tool:





__





						Universal Parting Blade Holder CXA-7
					






					www.aloris.com


----------



## ddickey

I've bought a couple 5/8" and maybe one 3/4" Micro 100 brazed tools off of Amazon for dollars. I saw some brazed parting blades really cheap but they were 11/16" high.


----------



## erikmannie

Liljoebrshooter said:


> So you are spending 20k on a lathe and electric stuff and can't buy tooling?
> 
> Joe



I’m up against the ropes after what I have spent so far on this project. PM will call me in August with a large balance due. My wife says that she will do all she can to help me, but I can see that it is time to stop buying stuff now.

EDIT: I got lucky & a lot of things fell into place. I ended up being able to afford everything, and the only penalty is that I am now strapped for 4 years.


----------



## Aukai

After the balloon payment you can get better organized, save for that first.


----------



## erikmannie

I caught a lucky financial break today. We have had a bare lot (real estate) for sale for a few months, and a strong buyer came along. Both parties have signed and I know the title is clear; fingers crossed.

This will enable me to buy a live center, bullnose live center, MT4 tool holder, knurling tool holder as well as hire an electrician to add a female 220V receptacle to my welding outlet for (the single phase side of) the rotary phase converter.

I already picked up two extra #1 tool holders because I like to have one each for turning, facing & chamfering. I also picked up an MT4 1/32”-1/2” keyless chuck even though I have yet to warm up to keyless chucks.

I had been planning to rent a forklift to move the lathe from the freight truck to the front of my garage, but I might want to hire a professional to do that. I am only licensed for our forklift at work, and our driveway has a slight grade. I sure would hate to drop the lathe!

For tool bits, I already had a few import BXA insert kits on my PM order. PM has already rewritten my invoice 2 or 3 times, so I will just leave those economy insert tool kits on the order.

The bad news is that I have to work Saturdays now for a long time because we have an astonishing amount of consumer debt, all of which is due to my fanaticism for acquiring tools. But, hey, Sundays are gonna be fun!


----------



## erikmannie

I bought this live center with a long reach because there will be a DRO scale on the cross slide. I think it is made in China.



			https://www.giprefab.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=878475


----------



## Aukai

Hoss, maybe you ought to slow down, you might be buying some of these things twice if you don't ask first. Just looking out for you with best intentions....


----------



## ddickey

If you get magnetic slides it takes up no space. In fact I can still lock my cross slide.
I know where you can get a new Rohm live center for a hundred bucks, 80% off of retail but has a standard point. Also a slim Rohm for ~45% off of retail.


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> Hoss, maybe you ought to slow down, you might be buying some of these things twice if you don't ask first. Just looking out for you with best intentions....



Yep, time to pump the brakes on the spending.

Is it the case that the live center is not the best choice? Too long of a nose?


----------



## erikmannie

I got into the AMP RPC, and this is the plug:


----------



## erikmannie

This is the plug that is in my Miller Thunderbolt:


----------



## erikmannie

A member of this forum that is local seems sure that these are the same plugs, “50A, 250V”, “6-50P”.

It looks like there is no need to call an electrician.


----------



## erikmannie

This forum member, an experienced electrician, says that I need to “look at...the max over current protection for the RPC”.

My welding outlet is 40A, and the RPC has a 20A circuit breaker. He says that I might need “better protection for the RPC”.

Edit: The PM-1660TL requires a 30A circuit breaker. I put a 20A circuit breaker in the RPC, and the highest speed trips the circuit breaker.


----------



## Aukai

Eric the length and style of that live center is useful, the LCs have load ratings,and some have better bearings. It seems that you would want to check on the quality here on some things, so when you start up you know your solid, and don't have any disappointing performances.


----------



## erikmannie

This thing is whisper quiet with no load connected to it.


----------



## erikmannie

I got the casters on the Miller ArcStation. I would not have been able to make room for the big lathe without putting the welding table on casters.


----------



## erikmannie

OK, I have the spot for the PM-1660TL ready to go. The space is barely big enough.


----------



## erikmannie

This sticker is on my rotary phase converter:


----------



## AlanB

So it won't handle a single load over 5hp. When you get a bigger lathe it won't be adequate.


----------



## erikmannie

AlanB said:


> So it won't handle a single load over 5hp. When you get a bigger lathe it won't be adequate.


If I ever find myself wanting a larger lathe, I hope that I would check myself.

I am planning to get a 3HP, 3 phase mill that I will plug into this rotary phase converter.


----------



## AlanB

It will handle that.


----------



## springer

ddickey said:


> If you get magnetic slides it takes up no space. In fact I can still lock my cross slide.
> I know where you can get a new Rohm live center for a hundred bucks, 80% off of retail but has a standard point. Also a slim Rohm for ~45% off of retail.


Please share!!


----------



## erikmannie

I looked at bull nose MT4 live centers, and nothing jumped out at me. I will have a lot of 5/8” to 1 1/4” tubing or pipe in there, a fair amount of 2” to 3” pipe, with the occasional 4” to 5” tubing or pipe.

I have an import MT2 bull nose live center so maybe an MT4 to MT2 adapter would suffice.

Any recommendations would be appreciated.


----------



## ddickey

springer said:


> Please share!!


PM sent


----------



## mksj

Just a general comment, you can spend a lot of hard earned $$$ on buying everything you think you will need, but I would pace yourself and take it more one step at a time. I have nothing against purchasing high quality items, I always say buy once, cry once, but there is a learning/experience curve to all this stuff. The lathe may come with a standard center which is fine for heavier stock, and extend point is always useful for getting in close with small diameter stuff but you may be still be limited by the type of insert cutter (clearance). I would go with carbide inserts for this size machine, you can remove some serious metal quickly. As far as a bull nose, if you are doing heavier pipe I would go with a MT4 bull nose. You can look on eBay, or the Z-live live centers are decent and reasonably inexpensive. One needs to shop around, and spread out the spend factor. On the lathe you can put a lot of money into the tooling, I was amazed at the costs. That being said, I plan to use what I have probably for my remaining years, and then probably someone else  will continue on after me. Good quality tooling lasts a long time.

The RPC is sweet, it is a 50A socket for the input. One thing that is very important, is that two legs of the 240VAC are pass through, these must be attached to the transformer legs on the lathe/mill/etc. The wild leg ( manufactured/generated leg) should not be connected to a control transformer or circuity.


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> Just a general comment, you can spend a lot of hard earned $$$ on buying everything you think you will need, but I would pace yourself and take it more one step at a time. I have nothing against purchasing high quality items, I always say buy once, cry once, but there is a learning/experience curve to all this stuff. The lathe may come with a standard center which is fine for heavier stock, and extend point is always useful for getting in close with small diameter stuff but you may be still be limited by the type of insert cutter (clearance). I would go with carbide inserts for this size machine, you can remove some serious metal quickly. As far as a bull nose, if you are doing heavier pipe I would go with a MT4 bull nose. You can look on eBay, or the Z-live live centers are decent and reasonably inexpensive. One needs to shop around, and spread out the spend factor. On the lathe you can put a lot of money into the tooling, I was amazed at the costs. That being said, I plan to use what I have probably for my remaining years, and then probably someone else  will continue on after me. Good quality tooling lasts a long time,


Point taken about pacing the spending. This size bull nose center is what I’m looking for, but this one may be made in China. To be honest, I’m not in the mood for spending this much money right now.





__





						4MT Bull Nose Live Center
					






					zlivecenter.com
				




Believe me, I would rather spend time out in my shop rather than working long hours at UPS. I look forward to my days off & retirement (i.e. shop time), but nowadays I spend most of my time at work.


----------



## AlanB

For the specialized and repeat work with tubing that you are doing I'd probably make some custom fit centers rather than use large bull noses. Get and make tooling to do exactly the tasks you need rather than a pile of stuff rarely used. Often a homemade tool works better than a standard one that isn't optimized to your needs. It might fit better, take less room on the lathe, have better bearings, etc. Optimize the tooling for your specific tasks.


----------



## erikmannie

AlanB said:


> For the specialized and repeat work with tubing that you are doing I'd probably make some custom fit centers rather than use large bull noses. Get and make tooling to do exactly the tasks you need rather than a pile of stuff rarely used. Often a homemade tool works better than a standard one that isn't optimized to your needs. It might fit better, take less room on the lathe, have better bearings, etc. Optimize the tooling for your specific tasks.



Cool. That had never even occurred to me. Sounds like a fun project!


----------



## ddickey

RayC made a bull nose on here. It was a great build.


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> ...The RPC is sweet, it is a 50A socket for the input. One thing that is very important, is that two legs of the 240VAC are pass through, these must be attached to the transformer legs on the lathe/mill/etc. The wild leg ( manufactured/generated leg) should not be connected to a control transformer or circuity.


That does sound incredibly important. What is the penalty if it is done incorrectly?

Edit: The wild (or manufactured) leg in my RPC was “Z”. The wire was blue. On the lathe, I connected this to “T”. The choices were R, S and T. Every receptacle, plug & terminal that I saw on the RPC clearly had the wild leg last. If you see T1, T2 and T3 then T3 is the wild leg. If you see X, Y and Z then Z is the wild leg. If you see R, S and T then T is the wild leg. Furthermore, expect the natural legs to have black & red wires. The “weird“ color (e.g. blue or white) will be the wild leg. Of course, green is neutral.


----------



## AlanB

Voltage regulation on the generated leg will be poor.


----------



## erikmannie

I am now trying to decide if I want to (A) hire a rigging company, or (B) rent a forklift & do that myself.


----------



## erikmannie

I have made a lot of progress with this project. I bought about 12 Aloris CXA tool holders as well as Aloris shanks, boring bars, parting tool & inserts. This includes the less expensive knurling tool holder, and MT3 along with MT4 tool holders.

I got about 20 MT drills, 2 live centers & an MT4 chuck. I also bought an import MT2 to MT3 adapter. 

This was wholesale financial hemorrhaging. This project will only make financial sense if I can live another 30 years & spend a LOT of time on this machine.

I have the space in the garage all cleared and the rotary phase converter is sitting there, all ready to go.

It looks like I will have to work 6 days a week, cash out 2 weeks vacation plus all my sick days for at least the next 2 years to pay off all of our consumer debt.

The escrow closed on the sale of the bare lot in Troy, OH. Had that escrow not closed, we would have been hung out to dry.


----------



## Aukai

It might be time to slow down hoss, your sounding like a run away stage coach 

You would be hung out to dry, but the family is along for the ride. I know your whys, but it's not just you.


----------



## kb58

erikmannie said:


> ... This was wholesale financial hemorrhaging. This project will only make financial sense if I can live another 30 years & spend a LOT of time on this machine... It looks like I will have to work 6 days a week, cash out 2 weeks vacation plus all my sick days for at least the next 2 years to pay off all of our consumer debt... The escrow closed on the sale of the bare lot in Troy, OH. Had that escrow not closed, we would have been hung out to dry.


I and many others here told you to slow down and think through what's needed, when it has to be functional, and the expected returns. Instead, you spend money left and right, complain about what stuff costs, and ignore our advice. Like I said before, these actions look self-destructive, but that ship has sailed. I'm left wondering how you thought this could turn out different, given that you were told upfront, but okay...


----------



## Aukai

Eric, I'm sorry I'm over stepping my boundaries, as you are dealing with a tragic loss. Please consider grief counseling. I'm going to print your quote here because you are heading down the same path in a different manor. I will not interfere anymore. I apologize if this is taken the wrong way.

" About 3 years ago, he had perfect health, a great job, a home and a happy young family. From the time he started using(you buying), he lost these things one by one until he eventually lost everything. "


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> Eric, I'm sorry I'm over stepping my boundaries, as you are dealing with a tragic loss. Please consider grief counseling. I'm going to print your quote here because you are heading down the same path in a different manor. I will not interfere anymore. I apologize if this is taken the wrong way.
> 
> " About 3 years ago, he had perfect health, a great job, a home and a happy young family. From the time he started using(you buying), he lost these things one by one until he eventually lost everything. "



I appreciate your concern. My wife can hold her own (believe it!), and all of our kids are grown.

My son succumbing to his drug habit & me going “all in” on this lathe (and tooling) purchase is probably related in a hereditary way. I won’t do anything if I can’t go all in. Knowing that, I am very picky about what I choose to pursue.

The spending for the PM-1660TL and tooling is now academic (except for a rigging company or forklift rental). I will be okay if I can work at least two more years.

I never drink or use drugs, but I am very aware that machining & welding can be just as dangerous. Yesterday I was gas welding on a stand for a mill. Of course, I know to remove the contents of the cabinet before welding on it, but I still shuddered when I removed a full gallon of acetone which would have been about .120” from the 5800 degree Fahrenheit tip of the O/A flame. Gotta think & be careful 100% of the time!

If I were to do it over again, I would save up money in the bank before making any large purchase.

Well, back to work...


----------



## Aukai

Thank you for your understanding


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> Thank you for your understanding



I already have a therapist. I think he is an MFT. Kaiser gives me one hour/ month. Whenever I ask him for counsel, his answer is always the same: “Really, it’s whatever you want”. Of course, my only ideas only lie in welding or machining.


----------



## Aukai

Change him out, I hate canned answers. "and how do you feel about that" is one of them.


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> Change him out, I hate canned answers. "and how do you feel about that" is one of them.


My wife thinks that I should change him out, as well. He seems disinterested, and not at all proactive.


----------



## Aukai

Payed by the Hr....


----------



## Liljoebrshooter

Only someone who wants help and to make a change can be helped.
Joe


----------



## 7milesup

Liljoebrshooter said:


> Only someone who wants help and to make a change can be helped.
> Joe


^^^Bingo^^^


----------



## 7milesup

I also hope that you corrected your negative feedback for the eBay seller.  They have a 99.8% rating. 
I am an eBay seller and have eaten sales just to make things right for the buyer.  I have never been burned yet.  Every eBay seller I have dealt with strives to make it right.  You gave him negative feedback without giving him a chance.
At the bottom of the eBay seller's page....
WE STAND BEHIND OUR PRODUCTS
 SO PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHOOSE
 (CONTACT SELLER) FROM DROP DOWN
 BOX AND THEN CHOOSE (MESSAGE 
SELLER) IF YOU ENCOUNTER ANY
 ISSUES. ALL OTHER OPTIONS AFFECT 
OUR SELLER RATING SO WE WILL WORK 
QUICKLY TO RESOLVE ALL MATTERS TO 
YOUR SATISFACTION.


----------



## erikmannie

7milesup said:


> I also hope that you corrected your negative feedback for the eBay seller.  They have a 99.8% rating.
> I am an eBay seller and have eaten sales just to make things right for the buyer.  I have never been burned yet.  Every eBay seller I have dealt with strives to make it right.  You gave him negative feedback without giving him a chance.
> At the bottom of the eBay seller's page....
> WE STAND BEHIND OUR PRODUCTS
> SO PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHOOSE
> (CONTACT SELLER) FROM DROP DOWN
> BOX AND THEN CHOOSE (MESSAGE
> SELLER) IF YOU ENCOUNTER ANY
> ISSUES. ALL OTHER OPTIONS AFFECT
> OUR SELLER RATING SO WE WILL WORK
> QUICKLY TO RESOLVE ALL MATTERS TO
> YOUR SATISFACTION.


Of course I made it right. I did that within minutes of receiving the replacement order.


----------



## 7milesup

Ok.  Thank you.


----------



## MtnBiker

erikmannie said:


> I am now trying to decide if I want to (A) hire a rigging company, or (B) rent a forklift & do that myself.


I considered both. The forklift rental was 1/2 of a rigging company. If you are savvy about timing you can usually get a weekend free (rent on Friday, the towing company delivering the forklift doesn't work on Saturday, pickup on Monday. That gives you time to think, time to unpack carefully, time to fiddle around with positioning, and time to go slow and safe.


----------



## Aaron_W

A big advantage to using professional riggers is insurance. If they dump the lathe, it is covered, if you dump the lathe... not the best way to start off with a new machine. Stuff happens I know people with experience moving large machines who have had accidents.


----------



## erikmannie

I’m going to go with “better safe than sorry”. I wonder how much it would cost to unload the 4,000 lb or so long pallet from the freight truck and transport it up a suburban driveway, placing the lathe just inside the garage and parallel to the street. The riggers would need to square it up. I bought a 6” machinist level so I can fine tune the leveling.

I also wonder how much empty space I should leave between the back of the lathe and the inside of the garage door. My neighbor Pat is such a crybaby that I wouldn’t be surprised if I had to add soundproofing and a decibel meter.


----------



## erikmannie

Today I picked up two Aloris threading bars and some A6 threading inserts. I got the smallest threading bar (can fit in a 1/2” hole) and the third smallest bar (can fit in a 1” hole). I will mount these in a CXA #1 tool holder.

Here is the smallest threading bar:




__





						Aloris Series ATB Internal Threading Bar Right Hand ATB-1R
					






					www.aloris.com
				




and the insert:




__





						60° Partial Profile Internal Carbide Threading Insert 1/4-AIT-R60-A6*
					






					www.aloris.com
				




No photo here, but here is the “third smallest” threading bar:




__





						Aloris Series ATB Internal Threading Bar Right Hand ATB-3R
					






					www.aloris.com
				




and the insert:




__





						60° Partial Profile Internal Carbide Threading Insert 3/8-AIT-R60*-A6
					






					www.aloris.com
				




Aloris is great to deal with. They always have specials; you can just call them up with technical questions. They are very friendly & professional.


----------



## JRaut

Any idea what you intend to tackle for a first project?


----------



## erikmannie

JRaut said:


> Any idea what you intend to tackle for a first project?


I have to make an urn. 

After that, I am going to make fancy cups. They will have a stainless steel insert, base and top (for safe drinking). The outside will be bushings (or rings) of various materials (copper, stainless, brass) to make for a beautiful drinking cup.

I plan to attach the bushings to each other with hidden socket head screw caps. It will be interesting to see how they wear with dishwasher cycles.

There will be some welding work on the stainless.

I hope to sell these online one day.

I also plan to make large boxes that look like a Miller welder. The lathe will be used for the handles (that look like knobs) and any other round parts. 

Finally, I also plan to make cups or pencil holders that have a small hidden compartment in the bottom.


----------



## MtnBiker

erikmannie said:


> There will be some welding work on the stainless.


Be safe welding stainless.


----------



## mksj

You will find the lathe to be very quiet due to the mass and the motor is enclosed in the cast iron base. I would be surprised if you could hear it outside with the garage door closed. I would recommend about 12" between the garage door and the back of the lathe, maybe a bit more. You will most likely have a LED machine light that might extend slightly back on an articulated arm, and you may want to mount some racks to put your most common holders and chuck keys so they are readily available.


----------



## JRaut

erikmannie said:


> I hope to sell these online one day.


Before you try to sell anything, make sure you think about what that means from a homeowner's insurance point of view.

If (god forbid) your garage/house burns down, chances are your shop and equipment won't be covered if you're selling any of your wares, even if it's just a few one-offs here and there.


----------



## JRaut

Along those lines:

You wouldn't be the first (and you certainly won't be the last) trying to make a bit of dough in a hobby shop.

But we'd all do well to understand the risks associated with that type of thing.

My homeowner's insurance policy, for example, has a cap of $1500 for "business property" located at my house, which "includes personal property that is frequently used in or for business or for business purposes."

The term "frequently" is, of course, not defined, but in the definition for "business," my policy says "...It does not matter whether it is continuous or regular or is a secondary or supplemental source of income... Profit and profit motive are irrelevant..."

I, for one, don't sell anything that I make in my home shop. I don't want to be out tens of thousands of dollars in the event of a loss because I'm trying to hock a few $10 trinkets.

Most insurers will provide a rider for "business property" coverage, but it ain't free, of course.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is: be careful and do your research.


----------



## matthewsx

Definitely talk with your insurance agent. Even if you’re not doing a business you want that new (financed) machine covered.


----------



## MtnBiker

erikmannie said:


> I also wonder how much empty space I should leave between the back of the lathe and the inside of the garage door. My neighbor Pat is such a crybaby that I wouldn’t be surprised if I had to add soundproofing and a decibel meter.


Here is an easy answer if you don't already have an insulated garage door. We cut metal with a cold saw and can barely hear it outside (way less than some hobby woodworker's table saw running anyway. Very neighborhood friendly).

We insulated for heat (this is Phoenix after all). Side benefit is excellent sound insulation.





Took a day but we used a commercial insulating board and cut with a jigsaw. We cut some skinny parts to jam inside the brackets, wider for the panel sections. Filled up the voids as much as possible.




This is the stuff! R6 in a 1.5" panel. And really good sound insulation. Way better (at least twice the insulating power) of the lame kits that don't fit anyway. The kits are made for easy installation, very bendy, are really expensive. Much better to use this stuff (but really hard on the fingers if you cut it to fill up the voids in the door - cramming it over the lip of the door panel).


----------



## erikmannie

While I am waiting for the PM-1660TL on back order, I am making a “CXA/MT4 cart”. The top level is done.


----------



## erikmannie

With the exception of three HSS bits, all of these tool holders, bars, shanks and inserts are Aloris. All of the inserts are A6.

Top row, L to R:
MT4 holder, CXA-2 which is a “free agent”, HSS outside threading, three interior insert threading bars.

Middle row, L to R:
Tubing knurler, bar stock knurler with trepanning bit in the back side, four boring bars.

Bottom row, L to R:
MT3 holder, insert parting tool, insert turning tool, insert chamfering tool, insert facing tool, HSS combination turning and facing tool.


----------



## erikmannie

Here are some closeups. The only one that should require explanation is the combination bar stock knurler/HSS trepanning tool. The Aloris products are nicely made and the company is extremely professional to deal with.


----------



## erikmannie

Here is the cart so far. It needs to hold my spare oxygen cylinder; that has nothing to do with lathe tooling.


----------



## JRaut

That's a lot of cash sitting on that cart, hope you've got a good lock on your garage!

Also, looks very nice. Well done so far.


----------



## erikmannie

Precision Matthews informed me that this shipment arrives in PA on Fri., 9/4 or Mon., 9/7. They also told me that the backordered DRO is on the same truck.

I'll bet that there are a lot of people on the forum that have parts in this shipment.

I will barely be able to get my finances in order to pay the balance of $17,250.00, all of which is going on the credit card.


----------



## Aukai

I hope you have a plan to not run the card balance for very long,,,,


----------



## Liljoebrshooter

Sure sounds like a great plan to me. 

Joe


----------



## Aaron_W

It looks like you are going to get your new lathe faster than I'll get my new dryer. Ordered it in July, was supposed to arrive in early August, now delayed until Sept 16. 

I hope this new lathe provides you with enough enjoyment to make up for all the extra work you have committed yourself to.


----------



## kb58

erikmannie said:


> ... I will barely be able to get my finances in order to pay the balance of $17,000.00, all of which is going on the credit card.


This reminds me of a coworker who announced that they just had a baby, then complained about how expensive it is. What can you say?


----------



## erikmannie

kb58 said:


> This reminds me of a coworker who announced that they just had a baby, then complained about how expensive it is. What can you say?



I often tell new parents that each kid will actually cost them at least $300,000.


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> I hope you have a plan to not run the card balance for very long,,,,


It will take me about four years to pay that off.

It looks like my expense for interest is about $12,000 so that is horrible. This is 1.5 hours of OT every week for 4 years.

One of the main reasons that I pulled the trigger on this purchase prematurely is because a friend of mine (who happens to be a member of this forum) expressed that geopolitical instability could prevent a future  purchase of this (Asian) machine.


----------



## erikmannie

Aaron_W said:


> It looks like you are going to get your new lathe faster than I'll get my new dryer. Ordered it in July, was supposed to arrive in early August, now delayed until Sept 16.
> 
> I hope this new lathe provides you with enough enjoyment to make up for all the extra work you have committed yourself to.



I am hoping to be able to work on it for the next 30 years, so that would be less than $4/day (including the tooling and interest).

I derive a great amount of joy from time spent on the PM-1030V. I can’t think of anything else that is more fun.

As we all know, the lathe’s superpower is bringing the workpiece parallel and perpendicular to the ways. For me, there is something deeply satisfying about cutting precisely parallel or perpendicular features in metal stock. I find it therapeutic: rectifying the universe a few thousands at a time.


----------



## P-Ritch

Aaron_W said:


> It looks like you are going to get your new lathe faster than I'll get my new dryer. Ordered it in July, was supposed to arrive in early August, now delayed until Sept 16.
> 
> I hope this new lathe provides you with enough enjoyment to make up for all the extra work you have committed yourself to.



Does this happen be a GE dryer? I ordered a new washer and dryer in July and I'm on the exact same schedule.


----------



## 7milesup

P-Ritch said:


> Does this happen be a GE dryer? I ordered a new washer and dryer in July and I'm on the exact same schedule.


I think a lot of appliance mfgs. are in the same boat.  We built a new house last year and equipped it with Bosch appliances.  Had to wait 3 months for the fridge.  As a side note, I really like our LG washer and dryer.


----------



## hanermo2

Of course You can install AC if You want.
House loads are never loaded near 100% over any significant period of time.
Typical loads are == 10% of capacity.

Smart AC with VFDs can easily use whatever fuses and feeds you have, and run perfectly well.
More advanced stuff could use multiple power feeds, and endless combos thereof.
It is not hard, and it is not expensive.
The people saying no are trying to cash off on public lack of know-how.



erikmannie said:


> One of my 220V welders calls for a 40A breaker. I wonder if I could obtain that with two slim double breakers.
> 
> I was with the electrician when he wired my 40A, 220V outlet which has both three and four prong (female) receptacles. He was telling me how our panel was jam packed with wires.
> 
> Our house used to be one house, and the previous owner put another house on top of it so we have 2 water heaters, 2 furnaces, etc. The electrician (my uncle) says that we will never be able to install A/C.
> 
> The outlet has been a champ for welding, and I may share that outlet with the lathe.


----------



## mksj

Have you looked into a home line of credit,  home equity loan or a loan from a local banks, their interest rates are around about 4-5X less than credit cards. With credit cards, often people end up just making interest payments and never end up paying off the principal and the dept just accumulates.  Sometimes worth speaking to a financial adviser as to options. Read the fine print as some loans can have horrendous fees for buyout, if you miss a payment, etc. and also waiving your rights for legal action. If it sounds too good, then it probably is going to bite you. Be wise, try not be impulsive.

On the AC units many people end-up putting in ductless mini-splits as opposed to the whole house, much less current draw and more efficient then traditional whole house AC units. Had them in the tropics and they work great, also reasonably priced, about $1500-2000 for a DIY complete kit with hoses and precharged.
Just an example: https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Ductless-Mini-Splits/N-5yc1vZc4m1


----------



## Aaron_W

P-Ritch said:


> Does this happen be a GE dryer? I ordered a new washer and dryer in July and I'm on the exact same schedule.



Whirlpool, but I'm sure most of the major appliance manufacturers are having similar problems with production. The salesman told me the delivery dates they have been getting on all appliances have been very unreliable.

The washing machine showed up mostly on time, so it is just sitting in storage. We have them stacked, so it doesn't make sense to pull the old ones out, until the new one gets here. We got 13 years out of the old Maytags, which is pretty good for a newer appliance. Probably could have gotten them repaired for 1/3 the price of the new ones but my wife wanted, bigger, newer, stainless steel with bluetooth.  

She hasn't got on my case for filling the basement with cast iron so I'm keeping my mouth shut.


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> Have you looked into a home line of credit,  home equity loan or a loan from a local banks, their interest rates are around about 4-5X less than credit cards...


My wife & I co-own our home with our daughter, and I wouldn’t ask my daughter to involve herself with my hobby machine.


----------



## erikmannie

I called Precision Crane in Windsor, CA today. I was happy to hear that they would handle my rigging needs.

We did not discuss cost, but the guy had a TON of questions about the weight and dimensions of the pallet as well as the clearance height of my garage door.

So that I don’t have to take a day off of work, they are going to do the site visit first thing in the morning and do all of the rigging on a Saturday. It would have been a struggle for me to get a day off of work (100% due to COVID-19).

I am curious how much the rigging crew is going to cost me.

Edit: My rigging bill was $1,640. The company was fantastic.


----------



## Ianagos

Typically when I’ve needed riggers is $1500 for them to drive out then a couple hundred an hour. Renting a forklift would be more cost efficient but very dangerous aswell. If you are local to Atlanta I can do the rigging for you for a lower cost but I have no clue where you are.

Edit: I’m stupid I just realize you stated you are in California so sorry I’m of no help to you.


----------



## erikmannie

Ianagos said:


> Typically when I’ve needed riggers is $1500 for them to drive out then a couple hundred an hour. Renting a forklift would be more cost efficient but very dangerous aswell. If you are local to Atlanta I can do the rigging for you for a lower cost but I have no clue where you are.
> 
> Edit: I’m stupid I just realize you stated you are in California so sorry I’m of no help to you.


Yes, I am an hour north of San Francisco. 

Thank you for giving me some idea of how much they will charge. It sounds very expensive, but I need to minimize the risk of damaging the lathe.


----------



## erikmannie

I think that I am done buying stuff. I just finished about a 4+ year run of working 6 days a week & I just can’t do it anymore.

I have been buying machines & tools as if it was my last chance to do so. The garage is quite full.

As I was working all that OT, I knew that the day would come when I would switch from “buying mode” to “using what I have” mode.

The cost for the rigging crew for the PM-1660TL delivery will put me in a financial position such that I must now move forward with the machines & tools that I have.

My first Saturday off, I spent most of the day on both the benchtop lathe & mill. I got to use a boring head and boring bars that I bought awhile ago, but was always too busy to use.


----------



## wrmiller

While in CO working my last job, I realized that I could soon be put out to pasture, so I bought my current machines while I could do so.

After they threw me out the door and subsequent job searches showed me that companies up there weren't interested in 60 year old engineers, I moved the wife and I back to AZ, bought our house and moved the machines (and everything else) down here. I had to take early SS, so now I'm broke, but the house and machines are paid for. It could be worse.


----------



## erikmannie

wrmiller said:


> While in CO working my last job, I realized that I could soon be put out to pasture, so I bought my current machines while I could do so.
> 
> After they threw me out the door and subsequent job searches showed me that companies up there weren't interested in 60 year old engineers, I moved the wife and I back to AZ, bought our house and moved the machines (and everything else) down here. I had to take early SS, so now I'm broke, but the house and machines are paid for. It could be worse.



I am at the last stage of my career. If I work until age 62, I can afford to add one last tool: a PM-1054TV. I am going to attempt this; I hope my body can hold out.

In my retirement, I will have zero chance of buying anything other than material and consumables (e.g. cutting tools, shielding gas).

I plan on spending my remaining years working on all of this equipment purchased with the hourly wages. Are any of you guys doing this? If so, how is that going?


----------



## erikmannie

The rigging crew supervisor (for the PM-1660TL delivery job) called me today, getting the last of the information that he needed.

He still hasn’t quoted me a price, but it sounds like they (Precision Crane in Windsor, CA) are competent and willing to do the work.

The plan is to ship the PM order directly to Precision Crane. I should get something in writing (including a price!) in order to protect my interests.


----------



## matthewsx

erikmannie said:


> The rigging crew supervisor (for the PM-1660TL delivery job) called me today, getting the last of the information that he needed.
> 
> He still hasn’t quoted me a price, but it sounds like they (Precision Crane in Windsor, CA) are competent and willing to do the work.
> 
> The plan is to ship the PM order directly to Precision Crane. I should get something in writing (including a price!) in order to protect my interests.



They will definitely give you a firm estimate at least. You are a reasonable customer with a fair understanding of the work required and what it's likely to cost. If the price is more than you expected ask if they can bring it to you when they have another job in the area. It will get done and you will be happy with their services I predict.

I'm also sure that in the long run this will be a purchase that serves you and your family well. People and businesses are always in need of competent craftsmen and women. With who you are it's unlikely you'll just stop when you retire from UPS, your entire working life has been serving others and you're probably going to keep doing it. Have faith in yourself and your commitment to learning and you will probably have a good second career that you love. 

John


----------



## erikmannie

The estimate for the rigging service is “$2,375 max”. For this charge, I will have the pallet(s) shipped directly to Precision Crane (the rigging company), and they will put the lathe in it’s place in my garage.

Also, Precision Matthews emailed me & said that the machine will ship soon, so I am calling them in a few days with my credit card info.


----------



## erikmannie

258 posts into this thread, and the lathe has shipped! It is headed directly to the rigging company.

I just got some “eBay Bucks”, and I bought Mobil DTE ISO 68 for the gear box (i.e. thread/feed box) and apron.

I will post pictures of the rigging crew delivering the beast. I will also post pictures of the cleaning, break-in, etc.


----------



## ddickey

Are you not using way oil then?


----------



## erikmannie

I could have used way oil in the apron.  Here is a screenshot from the PM website:


----------



## erikmannie

I followed what this guy did in this video:


----------



## erikmannie

Here are some screenshots from that video:


----------



## matthewsx

I got this stuff from Tractor Supply, $30 for 5 gal.






						VP Racing Fuels J20A Plus Utility Tractor Fluid 5 gal., VP2040014 at Tractor Supply Co.
					

Buy Great Customer Service VP Racing Fuels J20A Plus Utility Tractor Fluid 5 gal., VP2040014 in the Hydraulic Fluids category at Tractor Su




					www.tractorsupply.com
				




Back in my engine building days there were always big arguments about which oil was best, I told my customers to make sure they had the right amount of oil in the engine and change it frequently. I always broke them in on the dyno with conventional 50wt so there wouldn't be any question of compatibility. Those little 4 stroke kart engines had about a zillion times more stress on them than a hobby lathe and I saw very few oil related failures.

John


----------



## matthewsx

BTW, happy to hear your machine is on the way, can't wait to see pics.

John


----------



## Ianagos

For the oil someone above mentioned “tractor oil” well I buy iso32 and iso46 grade oil from Walmart online. Free shipping in 2 days and i paid $30 for each 5 gal bucket. I believe they have iso 68 aswell. Sinopec is the brand made in Singapore. Seems to be good stuff definitely seems a lot clearer than the “tractor oil” we used to buy for our skid steer and equipment and it costs less.

Vactra #2 I get for $99 for 5 gallons shipped from msc for free. Just have to look in their sales flyers. I have an automatic discount on my account but if you just use the coupon codes you’ll get the same price but it has to be the item from their online catalog. If you just search on their website the price is higher: I have no clue why I guess they just want you to browse the catalogue. 

McMaster has is for $28 a gallon and I think msc is about that price aswell. I just get free shipping through msc. If I don’t want to pay shipping at McMaster I have to make the hour drive. I do love McMaster though and their shipping rates are always super reasonable and I get stuff next day.


----------



## matthewsx

The tractor oil I bought is SAE 20 wt, which is equivalent to ISO 68 which is what Vactra #2 is as well. I used to sell VP Racing Fuel (both gasoline and methanol) so it's a brand I already trust. Not sure about other "tractor oils" but this stuff is pretty darn clean. Of course if you have a brand new machine and want to go with the manufacturers recommendations then by all means do so. But I don't think there's anything magic about Mobil branded products. They're just really good at marketing, heck they even have their logo printed on the oil fill cap of my Cadillac 

It'll be plenty good enough for my Chinese lathe and since it's designed for old tractors it won't eat any bronze that happens to be in there either.

John


----------



## ddickey

I will never use Vactra #2 again after using Vacuoline 1409 (iSO 68). I'm sure the heavy medium will be fine for way oil.


----------



## mksj

I agree with ddicky, evidently Vacuoline 1400 series is formulated more akin to the old Vactra #2 with a higher amounts of tackifiers which makes it stick to the ways longer. It is also rated for gearboxes/hydraulic systems, along with sliding surfaces. With the 1409 you can feel the tailstock float on the oil when moving it, the standard Vactra#2 you could feel more resistance after you slid the tailstock a few times.  On the ERL/RML/TRL series the way oil is pumped from the carriage to the ways. Bottom line just about any ISO68 oil will work, I just would pump the way oiler a bit more frequently using plain gear oil. Wear will not be an issue under the type of use a hobbyist will subject the machine to. The 1409 also worked well for open Norton style gearboxes. It is sold from oil distributors, the smallest stock size is 5 gallons, I picked up mine from a local oil distributor.


----------



## erikmannie

The rigging crew brought the lathe this morning. Below are some pictures. I haven’t really gotten into it yet because there was a lot of packaging, and I am doing a dump run.

My nosy neighbor rained on my parade by standing in his yard videotaping the whole delivery. This has nothing to do with him, and I wish that he would mind his own beeswax. I have no idea what he thinks he can do with a video of his neighbor getting a machine delivered.


----------



## erikmannie

Here it is in it’s place. I left a full 14 1/2” between the lathe and the inside of the garage door because I anticipate having to build a soundproof wall (100% due to my nosy & complaining neighbor).


----------



## erikmannie

Here it is with the garage door open:


----------



## erikmannie

More pictures:


----------



## erikmannie

And just one more pic for now:


----------



## erikmannie

PM was kind enough to install the taper attachment for me. It looks like they got stuck with having to remove a lot of the “cosmoline” in order to do so.

Work gave me the day off today, so after the dump run I am going to remove the rest of the “cosmoline” and get into the goodies.

I am going to start my adventures with the 4J chuck.


----------



## ACHiPo

erikmannie said:


> The rigging crew brought the lathe this morning. Below are some pictures. I haven’t really gotten into it yet because there was a lot of packaging, and I am doing a dump run.
> 
> My nosy neighbor rained on my parade by standing in his yard videotaping the whole delivery. This has nothing to do with him, and I wish that he would mind his own beeswax. I have no idea what he thinks he can do with a video of his neighbor getting a machine delivered.
> 
> View attachment 340391
> View attachment 340392
> View attachment 340393
> View attachment 340394
> View attachment 340396
> View attachment 340397
> View attachment 340398


Congratulations!


----------



## AlanB

Very nice Erik.

The garage door appears to be insulated but there are no seals around it, so the noise goes right out. Properly sealing the door would go a long way to reduce the noise the neighbor is complaining about. Not long ago I had a new garage door installed and it really isolates the noise and heat. It vastly improved the conditions in the garage.


----------



## erikmannie

I just went through the entire manual, and I can see that there is a lot to do to get ready.

I’m going to make an action plan. Presently, I have misplaced the instruction manual for the taper attachment.


----------



## erikmannie

I don’t know what this is, and I don’t remember seeing it in the manual. It is attached to the leadscrew and prevents the carriage from moving toward the tailstock. I do not believe that it is part of the taper attachment.

If had to guess, I would say that it is a stop for the clutch mechanism that would prevent the power feed from crashing the carriage in to the tailstock.


----------



## erikmannie

I just went through the catalog again specifically looking for the mystery part above. I did not see it, but I did find this (see pictures). It is an alternative to the micrometer stop that I have on the headstock end.


----------



## pontiac428

Now that's a lathe!  Hot damn, Erik! 

That neighbor is lucky he doesn't live next door to me.  He'd be walking funny and sleeping face down for awhile, and that's after the doctors strap him to the bed and remove the camera from up his ass with crane and a pair of ice tongs.  Nothing brings out that war vet rage in me like someone thinking they can threaten my peaceful pursuit of my own goddamned ambitions.  I even scare the cops, too, making the whole scene a little confusing.  You shouldn't follow suit, that's just me saying that type of nosiness is over the line, lest your neighbor need to be corrected. 

Noise control shouldn't be much of a thing with a lathe.  Insulation in the walls goes a long way to adding sound damping mass.  I got over 20 dB of attenuation by installing 6" of fiberglass in my shop.  It looks like your door is insulated too.  They use either glass fiber or rockwool in those doors, rockwool (green color) being the better sound insulator.  If you're really worried about it, you can face the inside of the garage door panels with 1" styrofoam panels, which will help more with high frequency noise than it will with low freqs.  That's kind of a tacky solution for the door, since you already have a good one.

Another noise control option is to play great music (Slayer, Cannibal Corpse, Sepultura, whatever) at just under the legal limit while working in your garage.  Suddenly the low whummmm of a lathe might not be such a big deal.  And when you do see your neighbor, snarl at him.  Make him tuck tail.


----------



## ddickey

Be careful the little brass plugs #6 will fall out easily. No idea what that is in the pic.


----------



## pontiac428

I don't know anything about PM lathes, but I don't think the object photographed is a carriage stop.  I think it is a lead- and drive-screw support to help restore accuracy from lead screw droop/deflection on a big 60" lathe.  It appears it can be snugged with the black-circled bolt, or loosened and swung towards the operator on the drive screw, away from the lead screw, and slid to either side of the carriage depending on the operation being performed.  Is that a convincing SWAG?


----------



## Aaron_W

The wait is over, now you have to figure out what all of those knobs, levers and switches do.

Sorry to hear your neighbor had to provide a raincloud for your big day.

Since you left that gap it might be worth building a semi-movable half wall between the garage door and the lathe, which can serve two purposes. One noise reduction, a couple pieces of sheet rock, and insulation will dampen the sound of the lathe, and second it will help to conceal the lathe from prying eyes (not just the nosy neighbor but also others driving by when you are working with the door open. 



I had a similar thought to Pontiac for sound camouflage, but I lean more towards Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Blue Oyster Cult, Judas Priest etc.


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> Be careful the little brass plugs #6 will fall out easily. No idea what that is in the pic.



if you are referring to the ball oilers, I did have one fall out on one of my other machines.


----------



## erikmannie

Regarding my neighbor, he is lucky that I am old & mellow now.

I have a few difficult people in my life, and I have learned to either ignore or minimize, and then move on with my plans. Life is too short to waste time on jerks.

I got the lathe leveled!


----------



## matthewsx

Re- wiring in your other thread, now that I see the RPC and the lathe next to each other. You could use this stuff.









						HYDROMAXX 3/4 in. Dia x 25 ft. Non Metallic UL Liquid Tight Electrical Conduit Kit with 2 Straight and 2 Angle Fittings Included 4105034025K - The Home Depot
					

This Flexible, Non-Metallic PVC Liquid Tight conduit, commonly referred to as NM Liquid Tight, flexible conduit, Non-Metallic PVC, Flex PVC and PVC Electrical Conduit is perfect for use in multiple applications



					www.homedepot.com
				




Between the RPC and the lathe and still be able to sweep up around everything.I take it you'll be running the dryer cord to an outlet in your garage?

John


----------



## ddickey

erikmannie said:


> if you are referring to the ball oilers, I did have one fall out on one of my other machines.


The brass stop in the carriage stop. #6 here. I take my stop off and clean under it after every job. I never leave it on the lathe, just what I do. All I was saying is beware because they will slide out when the stop is not on the lathe.


----------



## mksj

Not a bed stop, I did not see that on the 1640 model, I assume it is used to stabilize the lead screw and feed shaft when working with very long stock. Basically prevents them from flexing.  It is a very long machine and my guess is that that most of the time you will only being using a small part of the bed. As far as wiring,  would not use conduit, the AMP RPC is made to be movable and use with flexible cord and plugs. It is not meant to be hardwired. I have a similar arrangement with all my machine.


----------



## Ianagos

If you want the amp rotary converter to remain portable I recommend twist lock plugs and soow cord. I purchased 50feet of 8/4 for $90 on eBay. Maybe pick 50 feet of that and 50feet of 6/3 for the single phase input. Or just buy a big roll of 6/4 and oversized the output.


----------



## erikmannie

matthewsx said:


> Re- wiring in your other thread, now that I see the RPC and the lathe next to each other. You could use this stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HYDROMAXX 3/4 in. Dia x 25 ft. Non Metallic UL Liquid Tight Electrical Conduit Kit with 2 Straight and 2 Angle Fittings Included 4105034025K - The Home Depot
> 
> 
> This Flexible, Non-Metallic PVC Liquid Tight conduit, commonly referred to as NM Liquid Tight, flexible conduit, Non-Metallic PVC, Flex PVC and PVC Electrical Conduit is perfect for use in multiple applications
> 
> 
> 
> www.homedepot.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Between the RPC and the lathe and still be able to sweep up around everything.I take it you'll be running the dryer cord to an outlet in your garage?
> 
> John



I have a 220V, 40A welding outlet right next to the rotary phase converter.

I put my welding table on casters, so I can roll it around (within range of the outlet). I have to cover my machine tools when I weld (except for TIG).


----------



## erikmannie

Ianagos said:


> If you want the amp rotary converter to remain portable I recommend twist lock plugs and soow cord. I purchased 50feet of 8/4 for $90 on eBay. Maybe pick 50 feet of that and 50feet of 6/3 for the single phase input. Or just buy a big roll of 6/4 and oversized the output.



Yes, these are twist lock plugs. I have 6’ of SO cable to go from the rotary phase converter to the lathe.


----------



## Stonebriar

Here is a picture of the little gizmo at the PM shop.  Mounted to the right of  the carriage.


----------



## Kiwi Canuck

Wow, what a beast, congratulations.

David


----------



## DavidR8

Congratulations Erik!
Monster lathe, can’t wait to see what comes from it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## erikmannie

The rigging was $1,654.85. The rigging company, Precision Crane was very professional & expedient.


----------



## matthewsx

I'd say worth every penny to have delivery be a non-event.


----------



## erikmannie

I thought that I had misplaced the manual for the taper attachment, but I called Precision Matthews and they said that there never was any such paperwork.

By the way, one engages the taper attachment by disengaging the nut (which may be a half nut) that enables the cross slide handwheel to move the cross slide by way of the cross slide leadscrew.

This is done by loosening a set screw which is located in the middle of the 4 four cap screws used to adjust the backlash on the cross slide leadscrew. Loosen these 4 cap screws enough and that will disengage the aforementioned (half?) nut; this will allow the taper attachment assembly to pull the cross slide in & out as the carriage moves back & forth.

Here are these cap screws and set screw:


----------



## matthewsx

Bet that'll cut some nice big tapers....

John


----------



## erikmannie

matthewsx said:


> Bet that'll cut some nice big tapers....
> 
> John



Up to 10°, up to 10 inches.


----------



## pontiac428

erikmannie said:


> Up to 10°, up to 10 inches.



Oh, my!


----------



## mksj

If you want a manual you can download one from Grizzly under documents, it is the same unit. Many of their SB lathes are made by the same manufacturer. I helped another person install one of these on his 1640, took two of us to lift it and a bear to align. It pays to get it factory installed.  I would check on how to use it, I do not recall the specifics on the cross slide lead-screw nut and how to set it up. I have worked with these on a 1440GT.  Nice feature, but most people I speak to use them once every couple of years.








						Taper Attachment for 13", 14", 16" Lathes at Grizzly.com
					

<h1>SB1263 Taper Attachment for 13", 14", 16" Lathes</h1> <h2>Upgrade your lathe for precise taper machining.</h2> <p>The SB1263 Taper Attachment mounts quickly to the back bed way of your lathe. Accurate tapers can be cut without repositioning the attachment or having to offset the...




					www.grizzly.com


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> If you want a manual you can download one from Grizzly under documents, it is the same unit. Many of their SB lathes are made by the same manufacturer. I helped another person install one of these on his 1640, took two of us to lift it and a bear to align. It pays to get it factory installed.  I would check on how to use it, I do not recall the specifics on the cross slide lead-screw nut and how to set it up. I have worked with these on a 1440GT.  Nice feature, but most people I speak to use them once every couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taper Attachment for 13", 14", 16" Lathes at Grizzly.com
> 
> 
> <h1>SB1263 Taper Attachment for 13", 14", 16" Lathes</h1> <h2>Upgrade your lathe for precise taper machining.</h2> <p>The SB1263 Taper Attachment mounts quickly to the back bed way of your lathe. Accurate tapers can be cut without repositioning the attachment or having to offset the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.grizzly.com



Once again, an extremely helpful response! Much appreciated.

Manual:


			https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/sb1263_m.pdf
		


Parts List:


			https://cdn0.grizzly.com/partslists/sb1263_pl.pdf
		


Buy Individual Parts:








						Parts for Taper Attachment for 13", 14", 16" Lathes at Grizzly.com
					

Grizzly Industrial, Inc. is a national retail and internet company providing a wide variety of high-quality woodworking and metalworking machinery, power tools, hand tools and accessories.  By selling directly to end users we provide the best quality products at the best price to professionals...




					www.grizzly.com


----------



## jbolt

erikmannie said:


> I don’t know what this is, and I don’t remember seeing it in the manual. It is attached to the leadscrew and prevents the carriage from moving toward the tailstock. I do not believe that it is part of the taper attachment.
> 
> If had to guess, I would say that it is a stop for the clutch mechanism that would prevent the power feed from crashing the carriage in to the tailstock.
> 
> View attachment 340458


My guess it this is a stabilizer for the lead and feed screws when running at high speed to prevent whip due to the long lengths of the screws.

Congrats on receiving the lathe. It looks like a beast and should serve you well. So jealous of the universal gearbox!


----------



## bakrch

That is a nice lathe! Congrats!

We have 16,18 and 22 x 60" lathes that do not have that cradle feature, but here it is on our 42" x 100.


----------



## ddickey

Perfect place to set your coffee cup.


----------



## erikmannie

Not surprisingly, this large lathe motivated me to move my 8’ long workbench outside. This enabled me to put the welding bench where the 8’ workbench was. This positions the welding bench next to the 220V outlet.

I gave my Grizzly drill press to my friend whose shop burned down.

Here are the 2 workbenches now located on my side yard. I finally get to do all of my messy grinding outside!


----------



## erikmannie

So here is the rearranged shop.

Welding bench, “welder in use”, and the “Inch Tool Chest“:


----------



## erikmannie

220V, 40A outlet, “MT4/CXA Cart”, micrometers on a cabinet (rotary phase converter behind the blue cabinet), headstock:


----------



## erikmannie

Lathe & “Metric Tool Chest”:


----------



## erikmannie

Mill & lathe with 4 welding carts behind them:


----------



## erikmannie

Bicycle area:


----------



## erikmannie

And, of course, a bunch of things stacked behind the lathe:


----------



## DavidR8

erikmannie said:


> 220V, 40A outlet, “MT4/CXA Cart”, micrometers on a cabinet (rotary phase converter behind the blue cabinet), headstock:
> 
> View attachment 340899



Looks like you’re set for alumina cups!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## erikmannie

So the middle of the shop is open!


----------



## ddickey

Nice use of space.


----------



## ACHiPo

erikmannie said:


> Lathe & “Metric Tool Chest”:
> 
> View attachment 340900


Man that is a beast!


----------



## erikmannie

I was hoping to finish the T-nut for my QCTP today, but it this is as far as I got. The Aloris toolpost bolt was too big to fit in the PM T-nut.


----------



## Aukai

What was wrong?


----------



## Aukai

I'm ordering the Aloris QCTP with my 1340GT, If I know what the issue is I can get PM to check it


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> What was wrong?



The very top of the T-nut is the same as the gap where it slides in. I am going to trim it down so it fits in tightly, but I ran out of time.

I also need to get a nice finish on the top and bottom faces.


----------



## Aukai

Ok, thank you...


----------



## erikmannie

There is nothing wrong with anybody’s specs. The 4 position toolpost that comes with the PM lathe has a slightly smaller diameter toolpost bolt than that of the Aloris CXA toolpost.

I bought an Aloris CXA QCTP toolpost, and I am using the Aloris T-nut and toolpost bolt.

The Aloris T-nut comes as a blank; i.e., one has to mill the dimensions of the cross section of the T-nut to those of the specific lathe’s compound.


----------



## erikmannie

I want to point out that Precision Matthews had absolutely stellar customer service at all points in this purchase. An A+ grade would not do them justice. What a pleasure to experience such great customer care. I cannot recommend them enough!


----------



## Aukai

Matt has been great, I have requested that they install my Aloris QCTP, so if there are any difficulties they see it first hand. My 1228 had extreme difficulties changing to a Dorian QCTP. The set screw was tightened on the OEM post, and deformed the threads so bad coming out that the new stand bolt had no threads to engage, and is low now.


----------



## erikmannie

So now I’m really making progress because I have power to the lathe!

I couldn’t get anything done all week because of my job, but first thing Saturday morning my Dad came over and we put a 20A receptacle in the rotary phase converter and made a 6 foot cord that goes from the RPC to the lathe.

We were so careful to wire it all up correctly, but when we tested it there was no power to the machine. After a few scary moments, we discovered that the breaker was tripped on the RPC.

When we got the lathe going, it was turning backwards, so we switched the R and S wires (aka X and Y, aka T1 and T2, aka red and black). Seeing the chuck spin in the correct direction was one of the happiest moments of my life.

So now I am doing the break in. My friend Alan is coming over tomorrow to check it out.


----------



## Aukai

One of the things I'm going to dread is the setting up of the new machine. I can walk out in the garage, and work right now, plus I know my machine.....
Congratulations


----------



## ddickey

Story on running backwards. My old lathe was opposite movement of the start lever as my new one. I was ready to reverse wires when I read online that the direction of the new one was normal. I may of even posted a question about it here.
Enjoy the lathe Erik.


----------



## AlanB

The size of that lathe makes the chuck look small.


----------



## matthewsx

Aukai said:


> One of the things I'm going to dread is the setting up of the new machine. I can walk out in the garage, and work right now, plus I know my machine.....
> Congratulations


I bet you’ll have help if you need it


----------



## erikmannie

AlanB said:


> The size of that lathe makes the chuck look small.



That is an 8” 3J. I have a 10” 4J, but I will start off with the 3J.


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> Story on running backwards. My old lathe was opposite movement of the start lever as my new one. I was ready to reverse wires when I read online that the direction of the new one was normal. I may of even posted a question about it here.
> Enjoy the lathe Erik.



I did read the whole manual, and I looked for a forward/reverse control on this lathe, but I still have not seen a way to reverse rotation.

Edit: The lever that turns it on can go up or down. One is forward, and one is reverse. You can choose which you want by switching the R and S wires (which are probably red and black in your SO cable). I was not aware of any convention, so I chose up to be forward.


----------



## erikmannie

I finished my T-nut and mounted the QCTP.


----------



## Ianagos

erikmannie said:


> I did read the whole manual, and I looked for a forward/reverse control on this lathe, but I still have not seen a way to reverse rotation.



Is it not the same lever that has it go forward? Just lift it up instead of down?

I used to have an asian import and I’m pretty sure that’s how it was.


----------



## erikmannie

So now I am having a big problem. It came with a steady rest and I could move the carriage back-and-forth about 6 inches, blocked by the steady rest.

After I removed the steady rest, the carriage sure doesn’t wanna move toward the spindle more than about 2 inches. The carriage moves toward the tailstock fine, but something is blocking it. I loosened the gibs, but that didn’t help.

EDIT: I figured it out. The taper attachment was locked to the ways.


----------



## bill70j

Ianagos said:


> Is it not the same lever that has it go forward? Just lift it up instead of down?
> 
> I used to have an asian import and I’m pretty sure that’s how it was.


That's the way the PM-1440GT works.  The SB(Grizzly)16" also.


----------



## erikmannie

I figured it out. This part of the taper attachment was locked down. Only now do I realize that the entire taper attachment moves with the carriage.


----------



## erikmannie

Ianagos said:


> Is it not the same lever that has it go forward? Just lift it up instead of down?
> 
> I used to have an asian import and I’m pretty sure that’s how it was.



Yes, This was the answer to that question! Thank you.


----------



## erikmannie

Now I can’t get the lead screw to budge. There is a Forward/Neutral/Reverse lever and a Low/Neutral/High lever. I engage the levers (like on my other lathe), but this leadscrew will not rotate.








Edit: My mistakes were (1) not having the spindle in gear while testing, and (2) not correctly engaging all 5 gears by way of putting the spindle in Neutral & rotating the chuck by hand.


----------



## hotrats

Congratulations on the new lathe!! Seems I've missed reading this thread for a couple weeks, and missed delivery. That lathe is huge!!! Should def. handle anything you should need. Also great to hear of your experience with Matt and crew. A good company to deal with.


----------



## erikmannie

Now I can’t get the lead screw to budge. There is a Forward/Neutral/Reverse lever and a Low/Neutral/High lever. I engage the levers (like on my other lathe), but this leadscrew will not rotate.

EDIT: I got it going once it by messing with these lettered levers,  but I can’t seem to get the leadscrew to rotate again.


----------



## Ianagos

As far as your lead screw situation. Is your feed rod turning?

On every machine I’ve ever used there is a lever to change between the feed rod and the lead screw. 

On most of these big machines the feed screw and the feed rod are separate. On many small machines I have seen it’s all together.

Take a picture of all your levers there and a picture of your carriage and I’ll try to direct you to the correct knob. 

Please note I don’t own this machine I’ve just ran a few different types of machines so I may be wrong.


----------



## mksj

I would follow the directions in the manual, you have the gearbox feed in HIGH when it is suppose to be in LOW. The high gear is limited in speed and I have never used it on mine, only used for DP threads. Look at the feed chart on the right and set it to something like 0.004"/rev. Never change gears with the machine running, always wiggle the chuck when changing gears and make sure they are fully engaged. I usually will just bump the jog momentary to make sure everything is engaged.


----------



## erikmannie

Ianagos said:


> As far as your lead screw situation. Is your feed rod turning?
> 
> On every machine I’ve ever used there is a lever to change between the feed rod and the lead screw.
> 
> On most of these big machines the feed screw and the feed rod are separate. On many small machines I have seen it’s all together.
> 
> Take a picture of all your levers there and a picture of your carriage and I’ll try to direct you to the correct knob.
> 
> Please note I don’t own this machine I’ve just ran a few different types of machines so I may be wrong.



The feed rod is not turning, either. I will be curious to know how one goes about getting the leadscrew to rotate.

Here are some pictures:


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> I would follow the directions in the manual, you have the gearbox feed in HIGH when it is suppose to be in LOW. The high gear is limited in speed and I have never used it on mine, only used for DP threads. Look at the feed chart on the right and set it to something like 0.004"/rev. Never change gears with the machine running, always wiggle the chuck when changing gears and make sure they are fully engaged. I usually will just bump the jog momentary to make sure everything is engaged.



I went through many “FEED” choices because, as one would expect, I wasn’t going to start off threading.

I am going to go through the manual for a second time. I must be missing something big regarding this leadscrew situation.

Things are looking good here:


----------



## erikmannie

Apparently I am still a little worn out from my work week. I think all that I have left in me for today is to re-read the manual and clean off the cosmoline.

I sent an email to Precision Matthews regarding the leadscrew mystery.


----------



## erikmannie

Here’s a picture inside the feed clutch area:


----------



## mksj

Erik,
You need to move the spindle while trying to engage the gears in the gearbox, put the gearbox speed lever in low first, then slowly turn the spindle until you feel the gear lever fully engage. The handle will directly line up with the letter. In the picture above the handles are between the B and C position and R and S. It takes some time to get this all worked out and to get the feel when the gears are properly engaged.

This is my lathe set to 20TPI for the Lead Screw, LB3SV, note the levers directly line up with the letters:





This is the Feed Rod set to LCT4W for 0.003"/R, the levers are directly under the letters when viewed directly on. You can change the carriage direction either by changing the Forward Reverse lever on the headstock OR pushing/pulling the feed direction on the carriage (make sure it is fully engaged). When doing higher feed rates I use the column on the left on the feed table so 0.011"/R would be LCR4W.


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> Erik,
> You need to move the spindle while trying to engage the gears in the gearbox, put the gearbox speed lever in low first, then slowly turn the spindle until you feel the gear lever fully engage. The handle will directly line up with the letter. In the picture above the handles are between the B and C position and R and S. It takes some time to get this all worked out and to get the feel when the gears are properly engaged.
> 
> This is my lathe set to 20TPI for the Lead Screw, LB3SV, note the levers directly line up with the letters:
> View attachment 341689
> 
> 
> This is the Feed Rod set to LCT4W for 0.003"/R, the levers are directly under the letters when viewed directly on. You can change the carriage direction either by changing the Forward Reverse lever on the headstock OR pushing/pulling the feed direction on the carriage (make sure it is fully engaged). When doing higher feed rates I use the column on the left on the feed table so 0.011"/R would be LCR4W.
> View attachment 341691



This could well be the issue: not all gears fully engaged. I have been using the jog button, but I think I will try putting the spindle in neutral so that I can feel the gears drop in.

I just had a “machinist student” neighbor drop by. He set the machine to 3 different gear configurations (2 feed and 1 thread). He was having a hard time engaging the levers & I had him use the jog button. We could not get either the feed or the leadscrew to rotate.

Maybe the “Low“ lever has not yet engaged.

I guess we could compare this to back when we all learned to drive a manual transmission.


----------



## Ianagos

I was going to say the same as above.

Try turning the spindle by hand as you put all the levers in the left most position and feel for the engagement. Even on my old lathe I jog the spindle slowly as I change the gears. 
But on yours I think you have to manually turn it by hand a bit.

I’m also surprised by the huge selection of knobs on your machine. Mine does similar with many less knobs.

It seems your machine does not have a knob to switch between feed and lead screw though. So I’m assuming they just both turn all the time.


----------



## erikmannie

This is a .0033” feed, LCT8W. We have feed rod rotation! I am SO happy! Also, power feeds on the carriage & cross slide.


----------



## ddickey

Put the lever on the right in v.


----------



## mksj

Never us the jog to engage the gears, you will damage/break the teeth. There should be a placard on the belt cover that also tells you about this.  The spindle needs to be in gear to turn the gearbox gears, you may need to set the spindle speed to a higher speed range to make it easier to turn. You can but the key in the chuck to move it if needed, but you can shimmy it back and forth until you feel the lever clink and the gear engage. It is similar to the old non synchro gearboxs.

OK, you got it, just take your time and do not rush or force anything.


----------



## ddickey

And lead and feed will rotate independently of each other


----------



## Ianagos

mksj said:


> Never us the jog to engage the gears, you will damage/break the teeth. There should be a placard on the belt cover that also tells you about this. The spindle needs to be in gear to turn the gearbox gears, you may need to set the spindle speed to a higher speed range to make it easier to turn. You can but the key in the chuck to move it if needed, but you can shimmy it back and forth until you feel the lever clink and the gear engage. It is similar to the old non synchro gearboxs.
> 
> OK, you got it, just take your time and do not rush or force anything.



I see your machine has an actual jog function if so heed the above. 

I gave you bad info above on jogging the spindle a bit. My machine is different than your such that it has a real clutch just like a car for the spindle so I can turn it nice and slow by feathering the clutch. The motor always runs on mine. 

I think your machine just turns the spindle motor on for a breif moment but it probably goes up to full speed with a lot of force and that can damage the gears.

So just rotate it by hand or use the t handle and rotate it back and forth like a poster above mentioned.


----------



## erikmannie

All 17 of the feed configurations are A-okay. Thank you so very much for helping me.


----------



## erikmannie

And now all of the threading configurations that I tried are A-okay, so thanks again.

Looking back, I had the spindle in Neutral for up to 100% of my previous tests. Also my PM-1030V does not have a feed rod so I was choosing FEED configurations & expecting the leadscrew to rotate.

Yes, it is just like the non-synchro manual trannies.

The tip to put the spindle in Neutral & then rotate it by hand was what I was looking for. Put ‘er back into gear after that & it’s like taking candy from a baby.


----------



## erikmannie

So I just spent 3 hours using WD-40 to clean off the “cosmoline”. I wanted to use mineral spirits, but I am out of money.

I still need to clean the leadscrew and anything that was blocked by the DRO cables, but here are some pictures after that preliminary cleaning.


----------



## Winegrower

Nice, I'm looking forward to seeing a picture with a big pile of blue chips all over.


----------



## erikmannie

One more picture of that:


----------



## erikmannie

Winegrower said:


> Nice, I'm looking forward to seeing a picture with a big pile of blue chips all over.



Yes, right after:

(1) Final cleaning,
(2) Protective coating of way oil,
(3) Mounting DRO bracket & test DRO,
(4) Change the oil in the headstock & gearbox,
(5) Top off oil in apron.

I will only get through (3) this weekend, and then it’s go time!


----------



## mksj

Save you some time, I would suggest you do not change the oils until you have put 50-100 hours on the lathe, the factory oils are very good and you want to let everything break-in first. I changed my factory oils after 1 year, and they all came out crystal clear with no evidence of particles/cloudy. I change my oils every 12-18 months more because of moisture/condensation build-up over time. I do add a neodymium magnet to my drain plugs that I embed with metal epoxy. Yet to see any residue on my ERL lathe, but my Chinese mainland  mill I previously had, it was scary what came out.

When changing the oil make sure you cover the belt and brake below with plastic, some always seems to get by. I use some tape and stiff plastic sheet taped below the drain to direct the oil to a pan (something like 2 gallons form the headstock).


----------



## mksj

duplicate


----------



## Aukai

That's very pretty, it's good that you took pictures, once you start it will never look that clean again.


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> Save you some time, I would suggest you do not change the oils until you have put 50-100 hours on the lathe, the factory oils are very good and you want to let everything break-in first. I changed my factory oils after 1 year, and they all came out crystal clear with no evidence of particles/cloudy. I change my oils every 12-18 months more because of moisture/condensation build-up over time. I do add a neodymium magnet to my drain plugs that I embed with metal epoxy. Yet to see any residue on my ERL lathe, but my Chinese mainland  mill I previously had, it was scary what came out.
> 
> When changing the oil make sure you cover the belt and brake below with plastic, some always seems to get by. I use some tape and stiff plastic sheet taped below the drain to direct the oil to a pan (something like 2 gallons form the headstock).
> 
> View attachment 341766
> 
> 
> View attachment 341767



I like that tip about waiting awhile to change the oil. I still haven’t changed the oil in my PM-1030V (no valid excuse for this) after owning it for 10 months.

Also, I had not heard the tip about protecting the belts. And the magnet, all very good tips.


----------



## Larry$

Nice! I got a PM1440HD 4 years ago. They installed the taper attachment for me. I need to make a different bracket to mount the connection rod to the lathe bed. The one provided is too narrow and moves easily. Setting the taper is pretty easy using the DRO. My machine didn't come with any taper manual either. That 10" chuck is heavy enough to make it worth while to make a wooden cradle that keeps it aligned with the spindle. I have an 8" with a cast iron back plate that is heavy enough, for an old man. But you young guys can probably hold it in one hand. 

I doubt that that big lathe will make any more noise than the smaller one. Mine is quiet, course I'm nearly deaf. 

Having heard all the horror stories about chips and sand in the gear boxes on imports, I opened all on my new lathe before I fired it up. It was quite clean. When I changed oil in all the gear boxes, I used the Mobile that was recommended. $80+- for a five. The drain plug arrangement could be a lot better. Figure on modifying it. 

When is the new knee mill coming?


----------



## erikmannie

Larry$ said:


> Nice! I got a PM1440HD 4 years ago. They installed the taper attachment for me. I need to make a different bracket to mount the connection rod to the lathe bed. The one provided is too narrow and moves easily. Setting the taper is pretty easy using the DRO. My machine didn't come with any taper manual either. That 10" chuck is heavy enough to make it worth while to make a wooden cradle that keeps it aligned with the spindle. I have an 8" with a cast iron back plate that is heavy enough, for an old man. But you young guys can probably hold it in one hand.
> 
> I doubt that that big lathe will make any more noise than the smaller one. Mine is quiet, course I'm nearly deaf.
> 
> Having heard all the horror stories about chips and sand in the gear boxes on imports, I opened all on my new lathe before I fired it up. It was quite clean. When I changed oil in all the gear boxes, I used the Mobile that was recommended. $80+- for a five. The drain plug arrangement could be a lot better. Figure on modifying it.
> 
> When is the new knee mill coming?



I am going to buy the largest knee mill that PM sells just as soon as I pay off my lathe + tooling debt, so 4 years.

This lathe is not any kind of noise problem.


----------



## erikmannie

So the 20A circuit breaker on my rotary phase converter does trip when I (try to) use 1800 RPM on the spindle.

My friend Alan said that PM clearly calls for a 30A breaker. I had missed that.

So I need to get a 30A circuit breaker and a male 30A receptacle, and possibly a larger SO cable. The wires in my SO cable looked to be 10 AWG.


----------



## erikmannie

My Dad & I mounted the DRO brackets this morning.

My friend Alan came over right when I finished applying the protective coat of Vactra #2 where it was needed on the machine.

We turned, faced & knurled. I needed to remove the follow rest in order to get my facing tool in there.

At one point, I noticed the the compound was set parallel to the ways. I like to set it closer to 30°. I don’t think a lot of people are working with their compound set parallel to the ways.

Here is the picture with the first chips, and before I set the compound to where I like it.


----------



## erikmannie

And here is the DRO display. I still need to add another washer so it is level.


----------



## erikmannie

Here is the first thing I did. Face, center drill and turn this mild steel round stock. I was unable to measure any taper, so I was happy about that.


----------



## erikmannie

Here I did a chamfer & knurl. I noticed as I was knurling that I pushed the knurling tool into the work and rotated the QCTP. I took this picture after I straightened out the QCTP.


----------



## erikmannie

I made a less aggressive cut wherein the toolpost stayed square to the chuck. It turned out much nicer.


----------



## erikmannie

I made a few more passes on the knurling toward the chuck, some grooves and a parting operation. The big lathe made the parting very easy.


----------



## Aukai

I use a dial indicator on a Noga stand to check the knurl tool, and also on the parting blade in, and out to try and be as square as possible to the work.


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> I use a dial indicator on a Noga stand to check the knurl tool, and also on the parting blade in, and out to try and be as square as possible to the work.



I imagine that you run the side of the tool holder (using the cross slide handwheel) across the dial indicator & then you rotate the toolpost until you get no variations?

I used a 1-2-3 block against the square face of the chuck, but I like your idea better!


----------



## Aukai

Yes your right, I was hit, and miss on the 1 2 3 blocks working well


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> Yes your right, I was hit, and miss on the 1 2 3 blocks working well



I believe it. That is one of the operations where a third arm would come in handy.

I never assume that a tool (e.g. a parting blade or tool shank) is square in the tool holder. It also may not be square relative to the toolpost.

When I can, I like to square up the cutting tool itself. Your idea would work very nicely for this.


----------



## Larry$

erikmannie said:


> I made a less aggressive cut wherein the toolpost stayed square to the chuck. It turned out much nicer.
> 
> View attachment 341843


If you do much knurling, consider the clamp type. A good project to make on your new mill. New toys sure are fun!


----------



## erikmannie

There was a bit of a coup here for me today because my whiny neighbor has been watching me set up this machine, & I know that he was anxiously anticipating calling in yet another noise complaint when I started using the machine.

HOWEVER, both the RPC and lathe are so quiet that nobody would ever be able to complain about the noise. I know him well enough to know that he laments this lost opportunity to be able to call the police on a neighbor.


----------



## erikmannie

I also have the clamp/scissor type which I have so far reserved for tubing & pipe. However, I will now try them on round stock!


----------



## ahazi

erikmannie said:


> So the 20A circuit breaker on my rotary phase converter does trip when I (try to) use 1800 RPM on the spindle.
> 
> My friend Alan said that PM clearly calls for a 30A breaker. I had missed that.
> 
> So I need to get a 30A circuit breaker and a male 30A receptacle, and possibly a larger SO cable. The wires in my SO cable looked to be 10 AWG.


10 AWG is fine for 30 Amp, no need for a larger gauge wire.


----------



## wrmiller

After following this thread I have concluded that the 1440TL would be a much better fit for me. Too bad I'll never be able to afford one. Oh well. Guess I'll just plod along with mine.

Love all the pics. Living vicariously through them.


----------



## erikmannie

Question: 

“Can I use just any circuit breaker to reliably close off power for when I start the rotary phase converter?”

My rotary phase converter, an American Rotary AMP-10, came with a very clear warning that no load (i.e. any load with a transformer and/or control) should be attached to the RPC when the RPC is started.

I have been unplugging my lathe for when I start the rotary phase converter. After the RPC is started, I plug in the lathe.

I gather that they make “service rated” circuit breakers. I was just wondering if any old circuit breaker could be used for this purpose.


----------



## erikmannie

On a separate note, I need to expand the aforementioned AMP-10 to house a 30A circuit breaker because the lathe trips the existing 20A breaker in the highest speed (1800 RPM) only.

Fortunately, the RPC has knockouts because it is designed to be expandable.

The 3 phase mill that I am going to get only requires a 20A circuit, so the existing receptacle & breaker can serve for when I get the mill.


----------



## matthewsx

I


erikmannie said:


> Question:
> 
> “Can I use just any circuit breaker to reliably close off power for when I start the rotary phase converter?”
> 
> My rotary phase converter, an American Rotary AMP-10, came with a very clear warning that no load (i.e. any load with a transformer and/or control) should be attached to the RPC when the RPC is started.
> 
> I have been unplugging my lathe for when I start the rotary phase converter. After the RPC is started, I plug in the lathe.
> 
> I gather that they make “service rated” circuit breakers. I was just wondering if any old circuit breaker could be used for this purpose.



I'd get something like this and mount it on the machine if it doesn't have a master switch.



			Amazon.com
		


John


----------



## Ianagos

I’m pretty sure as long as the motor is off you’ll be fine just leaving it plugged in as you start the converter.


----------



## erikmannie

matthewsx said:


> I
> 
> 
> I'd get something like this and mount it on the machine if it doesn't have a master switch.
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> John



I think an on/off switch may be in order here.
The way the machine comes, you are on your own as far as bringing power to it. I would guess that most people hardwire it, and that there an on/off switch in there somewhere.

The school that I go to has about 20 big machines, and most of the mills have a “custom add-on” on/off switch.

The PM-1660TL does not have an on/off switch. As soon as I plug it in, I get power to the LED worklight and coolant pump (each of these has an on/off switch) and the lathe is ready to go. One activates the spindle by engaging the lever by the apron.


----------



## erikmannie

Ianagos said:


> I’m pretty sure as long as the motor is off you’ll be fine just leaving it plugged in as you start the converter.



I’m sure that many people leave their machine plugged in all the time and just turn on the rotary phase converter.

I wonder if turning off the circuit breaker while I start the RPC provides any protection at all.


----------



## Janderso

erikmannie said:


> This is a .0033” feed, LCT8W. We have feed rod rotation! I am SO happy! Also, power feeds on the carriage & cross slide.
> 
> View attachment 341696


The controls are very similar to my Clausing Colchester 15x50.


----------



## Janderso

Tell your neighbor to go to hell.
We all have the right to pursue happiness.
I can’t stand wimps.


----------



## Ianagos

You may just put a disconnect box on the machine.

I have disconnects on the walls for all my large equipment and then they have disconnects on the machines aswell. That is more of an industrial type setup though. If you really want a disconnect. One for your lathe can be had for maybe $30 if you can’t find one for that price let me know and I’ll send you one as I have a 30 amp one laying around that I don’t particularly need I was gonna put it on my grinder but haven’t decided yet so if you need it I’ll send it that way and buy a new one later.

You’ll still need your breaker but this is just an industrial on off switch. Fused ones are available aswell. Once again not needed but I fuse and breaker all my machines just because.


----------



## erikmannie

Ianagos said:


> You may just put a disconnect box on the machine.
> 
> I have disconnects on the walls for all my large equipment and then they have disconnects on the machines aswell. That is more of an industrial type setup though. If you really want a disconnect. One for your lathe can be had for maybe $30 if you can’t find one for that price let me know and I’ll send you one as I have a 30 amp one laying around that I don’t particularly need I was gonna put it on my grinder but haven’t decided yet so if you need it I’ll send it that way and buy a new one later.
> 
> You’ll still need your breaker but this is just an industrial on off switch. Fused ones are available aswell. Once again not needed but I fuse and breaker all my machines just because.



Could you please upload a picture of such a disconnect, please? Is that one of those levers that you throw?


----------



## Ianagos

erikmannie said:


> Could you please upload a picture of such a disconnect, please? Is that one of those levers that you throw?



This is similar to what I got


----------



## erikmannie

I work out of a very large warehouse & we use the circuit breakers in the breaker box to turn the lights on & off. I wonder why I can’t just use the circuit breaker for an on/off switch.

This article has something to say about that:





__





						c3controls
					

Can a circuit breaker be used as a disconnect switch? Should you use it as a switch and when shouldn't you? Here's what you need to know about the swap.




					www.c3controls.com
				




Simply put, A circuit breaker is not designed for as many cycles as a switch. Using it as an on/off switch risks prematurely wearing out the circuit breaker.


----------



## Aaron_W

erikmannie said:


> I work out of a very large warehouse & we use the circuit breakers in the breaker box to turn the lights on & off. I wonder why I can’t just use the circuit breaker for an on/off switch.



This was brought up in a VFD thread sometime back. Apparently circuit breakers are not made for frequent switching and using them as an on / off switch on a daily / semi-weekly basis will lead to a very short life span (compared to an actual switch).


----------



## erikmannie

Since I am so short on money, time & space, I think I will have the lathe unplugged while turning the RPC on, and then plug it in.

The warning (that came with my RPC) regarding starting the RPC with a load on it is interesting. If somebody has 3 phase service (from the power company), they can plug the machine into the wall & immediately get 3 phases, all with stable voltage.

In the case of an RPC, when it first starts you get 2 (natural) phases with stable voltage, but there is a short time in there where the manufactured leg must vary wildly (pun intended).

This manufactured leg probably starts at zero Volts when the RPC is turned on, as the RPC motor needs some time, albeit very short, to get going and do it’s thing. Also, the capacitors can’t possibly charge & discharge instantaneously.

So the wild leg during this very short period of time at startup could cause trouble ($$) in an expensive machine; even so, I am sure that a lot of people start the RPC with their machine plugged in and never suffer any ill effects.


----------



## mksj

So a few suggestions on the above discussion, first when you turn on the RPC, the wild leg is not powering anything on your lathe, it is only used when you run the motor. So there is no harm in powering up the RPC with the lathe connected, the transformer is connected to the line connections, it draws very little current. Breakers are not a good form of routine disconnect but can be used as a disconnect. There are also some variations as to the type of breakers used, so I do not see a problem using the breaker should you want to keep the RPC running and want to power down the machine. I do not see using the plug as a daily form of a disconnect as a practical solution, it will most likely wear out long before the supplemental breaker wears out.

As far as power disconnects, the easiest solution is to get a power disconnect switch and mount it on the side of the lathe cabinet. All 3 phases come in and go to the switch and then to the terminal strip power they are currently connected. You would need a 30-40A rated switch, they are an easy install. See example below, but in the meantime I would use the breaker on the RPC if you need to disconnect power to the machine with the RPC running. Otherwise I would just power up the RPC and just not run the lathe until the RPC is up and running which is almost instantly. A rotary panel mount power disconnect switch is around $30 plus shipping, example below.








						WEG Electric (MSW 40 P-3 H), 40 Amp, Non-Fusible Disconnect Switch (Includes Handle Red/Yellow)
					

Large WEG Electric Stocking Distributor. WEG Electric (MSW 40 P-3 H), Non-Fusible Disconnect Switch (Includes Handle Red/Yellow), Door Mount, 3 Pole, 40 Amps




					motorsandcontrol.com


----------



## erikmannie

@mksj Super helpful! I can trudge along with what I have until I get time & money for a disconnect.


----------



## Larry$

I would be very surprised if your lathe didn't have a main disconnect built in. It will most likely be near where the power goes in.  Mine is on the back of the left end of the lathe down low. Red handle. The electrical control box has the motor overloads so you will want to become familiar with them in case one gets kicked out and you have to reset it.  I have a PM1440HD and that's where it has the main power switch and motor controls. 
Watch Joe Pie videos of him using the lathe. He has installed a switch on the lathe to remotely start the RPC.  You can hear it start just before he starts the lathe. He shuts it off when he is trying to talk because of the noise it makes. I don't think you need to disconnect the lathe when starting the RFC just don't try to start it at the same time or have the operating handle in the *on* position. The RFC will come up to speed very quickly, a few seconds. Your RFC probably has a magnetic pickup coil,  if it's not 24V you can change it and add a little transformer so you can run small wires W/O conduit  to a  start/ stop station on you lathe. Takes 3 small wires. If you get more 3 phase machines you can just keep adding to the remote start stop wires, chaining them all together. The off circuit is series switched the on is parallel. Simple & cheap.


----------



## Janderso

erikmannie said:


> In the case of an RPC, when it first starts you get 2 (natural) phases with stable voltage, but there is a short time in there where the manufactured leg must vary wildly (pun intended).


I put in a 10HP American Rotary RPC. The first time I hooked it up to one of my 3 phase machines I checked the voltage, 120-120-236 #$%^&????
When I turned on the surface grinder, I checked the operating current again, 120-120-122. ( or something close to this)
I don't get it. I don't need to get it. The mill, SG and lathe all run off the RPC with their own disconnects next to the machines. I use the on-off switches that came with the machine tools.

I sure do like your lathe Erik. That is one you will use for life. Don't worry about the money, you can always make more


----------



## erikmannie

While I plan to add a proper disconnect switch as soon as I get time & money, I forgot to consider the E-stop as a poor man’s option for isolating the lathe motor from the potentially damaging variation in Voltage that an RPC may generate while the RPC is being started.

I wonder if there is anybody who has adopted the e-stop as the on/off button. Sounds like a good way to accelerate wear on the e-stop button.

It is, after all, an emergency stop button and not an on/off button. It seems like it would be a wise and safe choice to maintain that button in good shape by using it as directed.


----------



## erikmannie

In response to my email inquiry to Precision Matthews regarding engaging gears, PM reminded me to never use the jog button to engage gears. Of course, they advised putting the spindle in Neutral and rotating the chuck by hand. Easy does it.


----------



## AlanB

E Stop buttons are designed to be reliable. They are fairly inexpensive to replace if necessary.

I would just make certain the motor is not engaged, the E-stop can be used or not, but insure the motor lever is off when powering the RPC. The rest of the loads are not connected to the wild lead so the fluctuations there won't bother them.


----------



## erikmannie

AlanB said:


> E Stop buttons are designed to be reliable. They are fairly inexpensive to replace if necessary.
> 
> I would just make certain the motor is not engaged, the E-stop can be used or not, but insure the motor lever is off when powering the RPC. The rest of the loads are not connected to the wild lead so the fluctuations there won't bother them.



That is great news. Somebody would have to be pretty silly to have the lever on while starting the RPC! However, everybody makes mistakes.

Funny story. At school, there are 6 knee mills. We needed all 6 at the same time a couple of weeks ago, and the instructor couldn’t turn one on. No power. He checked the breaker and various controls. He called 2 staff members over to help him, and nobody could figure it out.

So they called in a repair guy. Understand that he drove there from another town. As soon as the repairman got there, he pressed the green button on the front of the mill (under the y-axis handwheel) and the mill started right up. None of the 3 staff members had seen that big green on/off button.

The repair guy literally solved the issue in about 3 seconds!


----------



## pontiac428

erikmannie said:


> While I plan to add a proper disconnect switch as soon as I get time & money, I forgot to consider the E-stop as a poor man’s option for isolating the lathe motor from the potentially damaging variation in Voltage that an RPC may generate while the RPC is being started.



Why would you want to spend money rigging a disconnect switch to your RPC?  The power receptacle you have _is_ the disconnect.  You would only need that with hard wiring the lathe to the RPC.

The voltage float on the manufactured leg should pull down to line voltage as soon as it starts flowing power.  I don't think you will hurt anything.  Besides, you bought the deluxe fancy most super luxury electronic model RPC that American Rotary offers.  It's got all kinds of protection built in that my base model doesn't.  In other words, you already spent the extra money for clean power, don't spend more on components that are redundant and unnecessary.


----------



## ddickey

My lathe only has an emergency switch.bit is to be used for on off control.


----------



## mksj

Agree with Pontiac428, don't worry about it, the RPC is your power disconnect as the lathe is the only machine attached to it. Also most machines have a power relay or contactor which prevents the machine from running unless the run command or direction switch is in the stop position. If the spindle switch was in the for/rev position on start up the machine would not start. If the power were to drop out, you press the E-Stop or apply the foot brake, the power latch releases and prevents restarting until it is reset in the stop position. VFD's should be used with a similar system to prevent starting, one reason why it is a bad idea to directly connect the run command inputs directly to spindle switch, they should always be wired with some form of power interlock to prevent machine restart whether it is power loss, E-Stop, braking, or any other safety interlock switch.  One always thinks it will not happen to you, but one can be easily distracted and forget. Seems to happen much more frequently these days as I get older.

As far as E-Stops, they are just like any other switch and rated for numerous cycles should you want to use it when changing chucks or whatever. Decent switches last decades of repeated use, not something I would worry about.


----------



## erikmannie

So I made my first thing today with the lathe. It is a steel paper clip holder that I gave to my wife.

It involved facing, turning, chamfering, MT4 drill chuck, MT3 & MT4 tapered shank drills, and a boring bar.


----------



## erikmannie

Not surprisingly, the lathe is a workhorse. Absolutely zero issues. I was taking cuts in the mild steel up to .075” and it just ate it up. Changing gears was effortless.

Sometimes (e.g. turning) my chips weren’t breaking. 

The lathe is more quiet than I could have anticipated.


----------



## Aaron_W

erikmannie said:


> So I made my first thing today with the lathe. It is a steel paper clip holder that I gave to my wife.
> 
> It involved facing, turning, chamfering, MT4 drill chuck, MT3 & MT4 tapered shank drills, and a boring bar.
> 
> View attachment 342802
> 
> View attachment 342799
> View attachment 342800
> View attachment 342801



Love this, a perfect example of home machining, $15,000 of machine tools, $3 in materials, and 4 hours of labor to make a $2 item, well done.


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## Aukai

Your having fun


----------



## erikmannie

My first project for this weekend was to install a 30A circuit breaker and receptacle in my American Rotary AMP-10 RPC. I bought 8 feet of SO cable and a 30A plug along with 8 AWG wire in 4 colors.

I failed to complete the project because I didn’t know that I needed “circuit breaker mounting feet” (pictured below).

Once I finish this project, I will be 100% set up for 3 phase power to the lathe and the mill that I will buy in about 3 years. 

I made the mistake of setting up a 20A path for my lathe, but those 20A components will be A-okay for the mill.


----------



## AlanB

You could mill one.


----------



## erikmannie

Today I used the PM-1660TL to shorten a bolt that I had in order to properly mount the DRO display.

I also got my flood coolant going. I chose MobilMet 766 “Active Neat Cutting Oil”. I have a picture below of the CF on full blast.


----------



## Aaron_W

AlanB said:


> You could mill one.





erikmannie said:


> Today I used the PM-1660TL to shorten a bolt that I had in order to properly mount the DRO display.



I think I enjoy being able to make silly little things even more than real projects. I love saying I can fix that I have a lathe (mill, welder etc).


----------



## 7milesup

For what it is worth, I built a large drum sander (25" wide drum, 5hp 220v motor) about 30 years ago.  At that time, I didn't have enough money to buy a nice on-off switch so I installed a circuit breaker on it as a switch.  I am still using that same circuit breaker as a switch after 30 years.


----------



## erikmannie

I put in this MT6 to MT4 adapter sleeve (my spindle is MT6 & my dead center is MT4).

I don’t see that I can get it out of there without removing the chuck.

Do I leave this sleeve in there all the time? I do turn between centers regularly.


----------



## Stonebriar

You should be able to knock it out from the other side of the through hole with a wooden down or something.


----------



## erikmannie

Stonebriar said:


> You should be able to knock it out from the other side of the through hole with a wooden down or something.



Oh, of course. Duh!

I quickly realized that I cannot leave it in there all the time because it prevents the jaws from closing in on work smaller than 2” in diameter.


----------



## Steve R

Aaron_W said:


> Love this, a perfect example of home machining, $15,000 of machine tools, $3 in materials, and 4 hours of labor to make a $2 item, well done.


I like how you put that . 

I got my 1440TL and 949TS about 3 weeks ago. A neighbor stopped in couple days after getting them un-crated, set in place and cleaned up. His first comment was "You picked a hell of a time (so called pandemic) to buy stuff like and try to make enough money to pay for them."  My comment back was "I don't have to make money with them, I just have to make fun, if it isn't fun, I don't have to make it." That was pretty much the end of our conversation.


----------



## AlanB

A 2" PVC pipe or wood dowel just the right length for ejecting the collet should be added to the lathe tool set. 

Starting to rain. Time to seal up the sides of the garage door. Maybe a bit late actually.


----------



## erikmannie

Well, I just learned the hard way why people make spiders to hold stock that sticks out far from the spindle. 

I just had a 4’ round bar of steel chucked up at 620 RPM & the bar whipped around & did a lot of damage to my new RPC, mill stand and 2 wooden Starrett micrometer boxes.

I guess I will post the pictures of the carnage. These items were brand new:


----------



## erikmannie

Here is the drizzle of CF from the flood coolant system in action:


----------



## ahazi

Take a look at this and you will never do it again









						Bar whip in a lathe
					

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				





Ariel


----------



## AlanB

Ouch. That's what the bandsaw is for.


----------



## BGHansen

Great thing about this forum is you can throw ideas off others without being judged.  

I bought a 5-C lever style collet closer for my Grizzly G0709 14" x 40" lathe and had to modify the draw tube.  Thought I'd calculated the length of the tube correctly, cut it off and internally threaded it for the 5-C collets.  My lathe has a 5MT head stock; collet closer uses a 5-C to 5MT adapter.  I "thought" the collet closer would knock the adapter out also, but with the length I made the tube, it wouldn't.  So, ordered some tubing from On Line Metals and made another draw tube.  I threw my saga out here and got a response that my original draw tube was fine for length, it's not intended to knock the adapter out, only seat the collet.  Felt kind of stupid after the fact but no one made me feel that way.  On the plus side, it was my first metric threading experience.  I now use the original draw tube to knock out the adapter.

Bruce


----------



## erikmannie

I formed my first threads on the beast. 3/8-16.

Here they are. Max major diameter .375” and max pitch diameter .3344”.

The flood coolant system with the Mobil 766 is  way nicer than I thought. I am a huge fan of CF. I do turn it off when I am coming up to the chuck, even at low RPM. I learned that the hard way when I turned on oily chuck jaws at 620 RPM for a surprise oil shower.

These steel threads measure out, but they are not beautiful. I actually don’t have a 3/8-16 nut handy. Maybe the threads will smooth out after I thread the nut on and off.


----------



## Aukai

Experience is something you get, right after you needed it, with the coolant.


----------



## ddickey

Yup. Told you it makes a mess. Nice to have though.


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> Yup. Told you it makes a mess. Nice to have though.



The MobilMet 766 in the flood coolant system is finding it’s way on to the compound, saddle, tool holders, etc. I know that these surfaces love oil, and I hope the formulation of Mobil 766 fits this bill.


----------



## Winegrower

Just by a visual impression, the threads do not seem to be symmetrical.   I have seen this when I have set the compound at the wrong angle or had the tool not truly normal to the X axis.   Yes, I have done both.

if it’s just something about the photo, disregard.

looked at it again...probably the lighting made me think that.  Forget this post.  ;-)


----------



## ahazi

Winegrower said:


> Just by a visual impression, the threads do not seem to be symmetrical.   I have seen this when I have set the compound at the wrong angle or had the tool not truly normal to the X axis.   Yes, I have done both.



The thread looked strange to me too. It happened to me on my first threading attempt... You need to have the compound reading 60 degrees not 30 and it is easy to verify with a nut.

Ariel


----------



## AlanB

I did some further research on using circuit breakers as switches. It's been some years since my NEC electrical safety training. 

Here's what I found: 

The NEC code allows breakers to be used as switches in several circumstances, with some requirements. The breaker must have the requisite number of poles. It must clearly indicate on and off, and on must be up if mounted vertically. If the load is fluorescent or HID lighting circuits the breaker must be appropriately marked for switch service for these loads. NEC does not require special breaker ratings or markings for other types of loads.

Many sources say using a breaker as a switch is not recommended. Others say they have done it for years, and it is standard practice in many places.

Home circuit breakers under 100 amps are tested for 10,000 cycles, over half of which are at significant current levels. Tripping is much harder on a breaker than switching, and breakers are only rated for a small number of trips, depending on the fault current.

In a home shop where the breaker was switched less than once per day it would likely last a very long time.

Internet searches are hardly exhaustive proof, but unless the NEC prohibits this use, and if the user is willing to replace the breaker when it wears out, it may be a feasible option. 

Plugging in a rotary phase converter that instantly starts spinning up the motor seems like a less than ideal situation itself. Starting a VFD has a similar large surge to charge up the bus capacitor bank.  These situations place large starting currents on a small section of the partially inserted plug. This may be hard on the plug and jack causing pitting and premature failure. The spring loaded breaker contacts will make up much more quickly than a plug insertion.

Reading back through the thread "mksj" seems to be saying pretty much the same. A circuit breaker is not recommended to be used as a switch but can be used (within NEC rules) and is more acceptable than the plug. Of course for those not under NEC jurisdiction other regulations may apply.

Regards,


----------



## erikmannie

I got the day off (with permission!) to stay home & play with this lathe.

On tap today is turning an 18” long piece of 2” cold rolled steel to see what taper I turn. I had the lathe pretty level, but I am sure that the machinist’s level will come back out to really dial in the leveling.

BTW I am turning this 2” stock at 180 RPM. The feed rate is .004” per revolution. So far my cuts have been between .004” & .007” (off of the radius).

I will also be seeing how nice of a finish I can get with my carbide insert, so I will be making much smaller cuts & turning the feed rate down to .002” per rev.

Here is a picture where I am finishing my roughing cuts:


----------



## erikmannie

So this surface finish looks poor after a pass of .006” with no spring pass. I am blaming this on too much CF.

I measured a change in diameter of .002” over 17”, so I will check the leveling.


----------



## Aukai

With carbide, and looking up 2" 12L14, the calculator says 1500 RPM?


----------



## ddickey

If you're checking taper don't use the tail stock.
Are you sure your tool is on center or just a hair below?
Are you trying to turn that length? If not bury the piece in the chuck. You don't need 18" to check for taper.


----------



## mmcmdl

JMO . Your rpms are very slow as is your feed rate . Take a real cut at 1250 rpms and .005 feed and increase that DOC and see what you come up with . That carbide is rubbing and not cutting .


----------



## erikmannie

I saw that my turning tool was a little too high. That is strange because I thought it was centered the last time I was turning.

I centered the tool & changed the RPM to 250 and the feed rate to .0022” per rev.

This is a pass of .001” with no CF.


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> If you're checking taper don't use the tail stock.
> Are you sure your tool is on center or just a hair below?
> Are you trying to turn that length? If not bury the piece in the chuck. You don't need 18" to check for taper.





mmcmdl said:


> JMO . Your rpms are very slow as is your feed rate . Take a real cut at 1250 rpms and .005 feed and increase that DOC and see what you come up with . That carbide is rubbing and not cutting .



How much of a length should I turn to check taper?

Thanks for the input. I will set feed to .005” per rev & increase RPM to 1200.

I have heard that carbide likes a deep cut & high RPM.


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> With carbide, and looking up 2" 12L14, the calculator says 1500 RPM?



This is cold rolled steel, but clearly I need to increase RPM.


----------



## mmcmdl

Cut at the tailstock and cut at the headstock . Measure the difference . Your finish will depend on feed per rev and your insert radius .


----------



## erikmannie

It took a long time with the slow feed rate & RPM, but this is what it looks like after the .001” deep dry pass at .0022” per rev.

The diameter at the tailstock and was .0035”smaller than the diameter at the chuck.

I’m going to use all of the suggestions in this thread today.


----------



## mksj

You feeds, speeds and DOC are not correct for the type of insert. The SFM would be in the 300-400SFM range which for 2" diameter works out to 600-800 RPM, you should be in the feed rate of around 0.007-0.010 IPR, the minimum cut in particular with  a molded edge insert is 1/2 the nose radius. The nose radius also dictated the maximum recommend feed rate





Below is 4140 3" turned at around 600 RPM using a CCMT 32.51 insert, the first 1/2 is at an IPR of 0.004 and the second part is 0.008. The DOC was something around 0.050".





The change in diameter has nothing to do with leveling, it has to do with the tailstock alignment. This also can change with material, insert , depth of cut, etc. So once set it may need to be tweaked slightly to get an even diamter cut over that distance or longer. The lathe should be leveled accurately and then checked periodically, you should not have to twist the bed for alignment. That is a last resort after you have eliminated everything else. Headstock alignment is checked with an unsupported stock, typically that should be no more than 5X the diameter, but there are other approaches to testing it. My experience with several of lathes from this manufacturer is that they are spot on from the factory.


----------



## erikmannie

At this point, the surface finish changed in this way as it got close enough to the chuck.

One could say that it went from a calico-type look to striations.


----------



## mmcmdl

You're going to get vibration out near the tailstock , that is what you're looking at . Don't be afraid to throw a feed rate on that machine . You're trying to baby a nice size lathe .


----------



## erikmannie

Well, working at 1200 RPM is more exciting. I immediately realized that the flood coolant was a no go. I did a .025” deep (radius) dry cut at a feed rate of .007” per rev. The chips were flying everywhere, and they were hot!


----------



## mmcmdl

erikmannie said:


> Well, working at 1200 RPM is more exciting. I immediately realized that the flood coolant was a no go. I did a .025” deep (radius) dry cut at a feed rate of .007” per rev. The chips were flying everywhere, and they were hot!



That's what chips are suppose to do . Come off like corn chips and remove heat from the stock . 

I find it interesting also that a lot of folks on the site are looking for cylindrical ground finishes on a lathe . IT's not going to happen .


----------



## erikmannie

This is the finish after that:


----------



## erikmannie

mmcmdl said:


> That's what chips are suppose to do . Come off like corn chips and remove heat from the stock ...



...and into boot onto my bare ankle to teach me take the time to put on socks (and long pants, for that matter).


----------



## mmcmdl

erikmannie said:


> and into boot onto my bare ankle to teach me take the time to put on socks (and long pants, for that matter).



You're learning !


----------



## mikey

I try to stay out of discussion where carbide inserts are used but can't resist this one. There are all kinds of "cold rolled steels" so I'm not sure what the cutting speed is but I suspect it will be near 800SFM for that piece. If so, recommended RPM would be somewhere near 1500 rpm and I would try it. 

As Mark said above, you need to pay attention to the nose radius as this influences the minimum depth of cut and your feed rate. I suggest trying a depth of cut about 0.010" deeper than the nose radius; this will stabilize the tool, minimize radial deflection and give you a consistent reduction in diameter. I would also boost feed rate to give the chip breaker a chance to work. Most of those spiral lines you're seeing is due to too low a feed rate and I suggest you try a feed rate of between 0.5 - 0.75 the nose radius and see what happens. 

The last thing I would suggest is that you turn the tool about 5 degrees towards the chuck and see how that impacts the cut. This should reduce cutting forces a bit and hopefully aid in better finishes by bringing more of the end cutting edge into contact with the work.


----------



## Aukai

You have a beast it won't complain, use it like it was meant to be used. Tool point toward the chuck(lay back) less DOC for fine finish, your in big boy territory for carbide RPM & HP, use it. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.


----------



## mmcmdl

Unless you're hearing your motor struggling , you're babying it !  I've only got a 13" lathe in here and I can pretty much get .125 DOC on most anything with the correct setup .


----------



## matthewsx

Lean in and go fast. You won't break the lathe so see what she will do....


----------



## erikmannie

I got another day off (resting my back), so the fun continues. I received the circuit breaker mounts so my Dad & I will install the 30A components, and then I need to make sure the 1660 is completely level.

When I tried to turn between centers on the 1660, I put a dead center in the MT6 to MT4 reducing sleeve in the chuck. The dead center did not run true. I think it had something to do with the weight of the reducing sleeve (i.e.the reducing sleeve wasn’t in there straight ). I’m going to be taking another look at that today. Hopefully my lathe bar whip incident didn’t crack or bend my spindle.

I am going to see about that with the Noga arm right now.


----------



## Ianagos

Yea I agree that you are going too light. I hate mold steel but for most carbide inserts to work well and leave good finishes you are gonna need to pump up that rpm and .002” per rev is ok for finishing but a bit light for anything else. A cnmg 432 insert you can push to .2 off the radius and .01-.02” per rev.

This was 5.5” stock and the part was around 4”

Outside was spun at around 900 rpm. So that’s about 900sfm. .1per side .009” per rev but that was with a smaller dnmg332 insert. A cnmg could have went much faster but the part also had a very long stickout.





I know that’s on a cnc. But your lathe is solid and can probably do the same.







With carbide inserts unless you get ground inserts that are specifically ground sharp the inserts come pretty dull intentionally as they are designed to take cuts like above. 

As a general rule
Carbide inserts do not like to take a depth of cut less than their nose radius.


Her is some videos for you not very high quality but just shows you the same cut on the manual vs cnc. I was spinning slower on the manual but that was a interrupted cut.


----------



## erikmannie

It took me just under 2 hours to install a 30A circuit breaker & receptacle in the American Rotary AMP-10. My Dad was an electrician, and he watched and advised.

I used 8 AWG wire. American Rotary used 10 AWG wire for the 20A circuit.

Everything went smoothly, and it tested OK. Now the 1800 RPM spindle speed doesn’t pop my breaker, as it did with the 20A breaker.

Also put on a longer (SO) cable, so now I have my rotary phase converter farther from the garage door and out of the weather. This allowed me to reunite my tool chests.


----------



## mmcmdl




----------



## erikmannie

I was turning between centers today. The DRO (mounted on an arm) was vibrating at 900 RPM, but not at 620 RPM.

Even at 620 RPM, the lathe was throwing a few chips all the way across the garage (i.e. the length of a car).

This steel round bar is 18” long with a diameter of about 1.7”.

I am so happy with this lathe, but I have to bolster my courage & work up to the high RPMs & deep cuts that carbide calls for.


----------



## mmcmdl

Erik , once you get used to throwing those chips , you'll soon find out what burning skin smells like .  Don't ever forget about safety glasses and wear a baseball cap also . If you ever get a chip hang up behind those glasses , you'll wish you were on a scooter with a wasp in your helmet !


----------



## erikmannie

I felt like slowing things down so I switched to a HSS turning tool at 250 RPM, .007” per rev feed. The surface finish is just OK.


----------



## erikmannie

The diameter at each point:

(1) 1.8068”
(2) 1.8059”
(3) 1.8052”
(4) 1.8045”
(5) 1.8041”
(6) 1.8032”

This is .0036” over 15.625”, or .00023” per inch of taper (“2.3 tenths per inch”).


----------



## Janderso

erikmannie said:


> Not surprisingly, the lathe is a workhorse. Absolutely zero issues. I was taking cuts in the mild steel up to .075” and it just ate it up. Changing gears was effortless.
> 
> Sometimes (e.g. turning) my chips weren’t breaking.
> 
> The lathe is more quiet than I could have anticipated.


That lathe can handle anything you throw at it.
Nice paper clip cup. Maybe a brass one next? Although the brass will cost you $100


----------



## pontiac428

Cold rolled is great for turning a nasty finish.  That finish is going to contribute to your variance when measuring up that big round.  I would not judge yourself or your equipment too harshly here.  I bet you'll see better numbers on your mic if you repeated this with a smoother finishing material.


----------



## erikmannie

The lathe was pretty level, but I painstakingly dialed it in as much as I am able to do so with a 6” machinist’s level. 

I took off the compound & found some “cosmoline” under there that I had overlooked. I very carefully set the compound to 29.5 degrees (it was at 30). I squared up the QCTP & centered the tool.

I used a CNC ground HSS facing tool bit at 380 RPM with .007” feed, making cuts of .005” down to .00015”. There were about 3 passes at about .0005”.

My final pass was a .0001” dry cut at 620 RPM & the slowest feed on the machine: .002” per rev.

This finish is okay. I am going to take it to the bench and measure the taper.


----------



## erikmannie

The dial indicator reads an increase (in radius!) of .002” over 16.25”, or .00012” per inch.


----------



## ddickey

You need to measure with a mike. Are you trying to align the tailstock?


----------



## 7milesup

As others have pointed out, having your lathe level doesn't really matter.  Having no twist in the bed, that is what you are shooting for.  If no twist, then tailstock alignment is the culprit regarding taper.  
There are lathes on ships.  They are never level.  Well, not entirely true because maybe somewhere in between waves it might be level.


----------



## mksj

There is quite a learning curve to it all, in particular with carbide and the inserts. I am not sure what your are trying to determine machining between centers with HSS, the finish is pretty horrendous which suggests the grind is not correct and also the nose radius it to sharp for the feed. The issue of the taper, just indicates your tailstock position is not set correctly. As far as carbide and SFM, yes there is a sweet spot as to SFM, but there are many other important factors that effect finish. I will assume you are running TNMG inserts or negative rake, these take more Hp and a more substantial DOC and feed to remove the metal, neutral rake tooling or inserts with a tilted up edge with chip breaker typically used for finishing will give a cleaner cut at lower SFM. Still a lot depends on the edge geometry, coating, chip breaker, etc. Most of the insert boxes give you a range of feed and SFM typically designed for maximum material removal over the shortest time with good insert life. This is based on optimum tool geometry and system rigidity, but on SFM I am often in the 50-75% of rating for that material. Also the SFM and feed is very dependent on the materials, and some it like CRS tends to be a bit challenging to get a decent finish. If you are getting a lot of chatter, then your RPM is probably too high, so slow it down and play with the feed and DOC. The ideal swarf are C-shaped curls that break into pieces, but you may also get longer strands of swarf in particular with tougher metals like the 4000 series. I have attached a  partial file from TMX which gives a lot of information as to general insert characteristics, feeds and speeds.

I would take a sample of 2 or 3" round material and just use the chuck with maybe 5-6" of stick out. Take a pass at say 0.004 vs. 0.008 IPR start at 400 RPM, 600, 800 RPM with say a 0.050" DOC. Start to find what gives you a better finish and the desired chips. Steel chips should becoming off straw color and turning blue. There are different types of inserts for different finishes and materials, some will cover a range. Often, in particular the TNMG which are considered obsolete by many mainstream shops, old stock is sold for pennies on the dollar. I can tell you that what works on steel will not work well on aluminum and softer materials, stainless and exotic materials requiring sharper cutting edges that are durable which much lower SFM and higher feed. Do not expect one insert to do it all under all conditions. Look at the attached document, review the basic coating, shapes, nimencalutre and cutting paramters in the materials listed. I usually run lower SFM and adjust the feed and DOC.


----------



## erikmannie

ddickey said:


> You need to measure with a mike. Are you trying to align the tailstock?



I am turning between centers. I leveled the lathe as best as I can, and I hope that the ways are straight (i.e. not twisted).

For the time being, I am assuming that the tailstock offset was set correctly at the factory.


----------



## erikmannie

I took very careful measurements with a micrometer, and the taper is .0042” over 16” (“2.6 tenths per inch”).


----------



## mikey

Erik, just curious. What are you trying to accomplish by turning between centers and measuring for taper?  Serious question.


----------



## Aukai

Eric, what geometry of HSS are you using(picture)?


----------



## erikmannie

mikey said:


> Erik, just curious. What are you trying to accomplish by turning between centers and measuring for taper?  Serious question.



This arose out of my desire to level the lathe (in such a manner as to minimize twisting in the ways).

I got the machinist’s level pretty much dead on laying on the ways, as well as on the cross slide. That should establish a minimal twisting of the ways.

I was wondering how much of a taper I would cut with the ways as level (“normal”, hopefully) as I could get them.


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> Eric, what geometry of HSS are you using(picture)?



These are preground, purchased on eBay:


----------



## Aukai

Interesting, I have not seen those. How does the cutter sit when it's addressing the material at 29.5*?


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> Interesting, I have not seen those. How does the cutter sit when it's addressing the material at 29.5*?



The Seller doesn’t always have them in stock, but here is an auction from the Seller, “cnctoolexpress”:









						TURNING AND BORING TOOL SET HSS FOR 3 IN 1 MACHINES 1/2"  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for TURNING AND BORING TOOL SET HSS FOR 3 IN 1 MACHINES 1/2" at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


----------



## erikmannie

@Aukai Here is how I present my facing tool with the compound set to 29.5 degrees. The QCTP is squared up to the chuck:


----------



## JRaut

As others have said:

1) That's a pretty horrible finish. If you're sure the grind is correct and the tool is set at the correct height, then it's speeds and feeds. As others have also said, seems like you're babying it wayyyyy to much. I take much more aggressive cuts on my little pre-war 10" Logan. You need to take some meat out of it to get a decent finish.

2) The taper you're measuring is almost 100% due to misaligned tailstock. Not (necessarily) twist in the bed.


----------



## mmcmdl

Got any other cutting tools Eric ? I use those kind of grinds for plastic only .


----------



## tq60

erikmannie said:


> I am turning between centers. I leveled the lathe as best as I can, and I hope that the ways are straight (i.e. not twisted).
> 
> For the time being, I am assuming that the tailstock offset was set correctly at the factory.


Never assume That!

Make a 2 coller spool to setup your tail stock.

You need to get a great finish, a 6 inch long chunk is fine.

Face and center drill both ends then grip one end in Chuck and remove from center about 1/3 or so of OD leaving about 3/4 in chat each end.

Now place between centers and with carbide cutter that worked best for you with lathe as fast as it will go, take very light cuts.

Light cut is just enough to clean up your bad cut.

Light cuts removes need for dog, just crank TS tight.

Make ONE cut across both ends ad measure the od.

If different then move tail stock 1/2 the difference as needed (If larger towards front, smaller towards back)

Paint both ends with a Sharpie and take lighter cuts just until all ink is gone and re measure.

Repeat the movement of TS until both ends exactly the same.

Clean up the center when finished and polish both ends until looks good.

Repeat measurements after finish.

DONE!

TS now aligned, if it is a bit high or low the offset has corrected for it for now.

Place this spool in your tool box as you will use it often.

NEVER cut on it again, future uses you place center in tail stock, center in headstock or make one in Chuck then play spool in centers and dial indicator in tool post and adjust TS for same reading at both ends when carefully moving carriage.

Photo of one we made 20 years ago.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## erikmannie

My main stable is Aloris inserts. I chose the ones for steel (A6, as I recall).


----------



## mikey

erikmannie said:


> Th
> This arose out of my desire to *level the lathe* (in such a manner as to minimize twisting in the ways).
> 
> I got the machinist’s level pretty much dead on laying on the ways, as well as on the cross slide. That should establish a minimal twisting of the ways.
> 
> I was wondering how much of a taper I would cut with the ways as level (“normal”, hopefully) as I could get them.



Turning between centers is a good way to minimize taper, not reveal it. If you are trying to level the lathe, this is not the way to do it. Sorry.

If you have leveled the lathe with a spirit level then the next step, at least in my experience, would be to make sure the headstock is aligned with the ways. There are at least 4 ways to align the headstock that I've tried and there are probably more out there. 

Use a MT test bar in tthe spindle.
Rollie's Dad's method
Face a plate about 3" or more in diameter, then mount a dial indicator on the cross slide and check the run out in front and in back of the spindle centerline. Use the front as the reference and check behind the spindle; if the headstock is off, the DI will tell you exactly how much and in which direction to turn the headstock.
Chuck a piece of 1-2" aluminum bar in a 3 jaw chuck with about 4-6" sticking out and without tailstock support. Use a very sharp HSS tool and take 0.010" off the OD to remove the skin, then take 0.003" to smooth it out and then take 0.001-0.002" and strive for a smooth finish. Measure the OD on the end and up near the chuck. Adjust the headstock until your cuts show an OD that is the same all the way down the bar. I use/prefer this method and it is very, very accurate. It is also self-proving in that it will show you exactly what the effects of moving the headstock does.
Once you get the headstock aligned with the ways, do a 2-collar test to fine tune your level. Once that is done and the lathe is as level as you can get it, align the tailstock and you're done. I'm sure the guys will tell you exactly how to do all of this. If not, PM me.

You should know that turning between centers is an accurate way to turn stuff but it lacks rigidity. Taking big cuts with a carbide tool can lead to chatter just because you're turning this way. Makes it difficult to sort out problems so I suggest you leave this method alone until the lathe is all set up, then play with it.


----------



## mmcmdl

Why are you using the ebay grinds vs the inserts ?


----------



## Aukai

I'm learning along with you Eric


----------



## mksj

This is a new machine, level the machine with a precision level and stop there. You will only mess things up if you start playing with bed twist to compensate for other errors that may be because of other factors. There is a specific method to checking head alignment, and as I indicated previously I have worked on several SunMaster lathes and they all have been dead on from the factory.  I have yet to see a new lathe of reasonable quality that the bed was not ground correctly with the machine leveled. The tailstocks are often out of alignment from the factory and almost always need to be adjusted, and also might require slight refinements depending on the cutting situation.  On the 1340GT and 1440GT I would say that about 1/2 the head alignment is off, and we are talking maybe 0.001" at 6". Take a look at this thread, same lathe manufacture and how he measured everything, it was dead on, so was my lathe and few other people I have assisted.








						NEW ACRA 1640TE
					

That's a really nice machine, and the upgrades just put it over the top. Enjoy my friend. Mike




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Also as Mikey suggested you should be holding the stock in the chuck, it will be much more rigid than between centers. Solid stock unsupported is somewhat material dependent as to stick out, rule of thumb is no more than 5 diameters. But it doesn't mean you can hold a 5" diameter piece of stock in the chuck with a 15" stick out. That gets loose and it could be an end game. After that the tailstock is used with a center and has more influence on if it cuts true. I would setup the level as per the factory with no bed twist, because you have a longer lathe, the last thing you want to do is twist the bed. The headstock alignment can also be influenced by jaw skew of the chuck, I would leave it all be until you get a bit more time on the lathe and maybe get someone to show you some more specifics if you feel there is alignment issue. 

This is a 8620  steel 5" diameter x 6" long being turned down and is supported with a tailstock. Normally I prefer to use a heavier live center, but in this case I am facing almost to the center and then boring.  There is not much holding the stock on the chuck end, I am roughing in the diameter and then facing at 550 SFM, 0.007 IPR and a DOC of around 0.050" with a Iscar carbide CCMT insert. You should be getting clean smooth turned surfaces. You also need to be carful when extended the jaws for larger work that they do not hit anything and also that there is enough teeth in the scroll that the jaw does not break free.


----------



## erikmannie

mmcmdl said:


> Why are you using the ebay grinds vs the inserts ?



I am still getting used to this new machine. In school, we only used HSS. I just wanted to take it easy with low RPMs.

I am still getting used to the high RPMs needed for carbide. I need to work up to that. With a lathe dog in there, I didn’t want any drama today.


----------



## erikmannie

I tried a 1/4-20 thread tonight, and on the scratch pass I crashed the 60° HSS cutter into the work very near the chuck. The 60° form tool went past my safety groove (the length where I intended to disengage the half nut lever) and into the round stock that I had sticking out (which I never intended on getting into). This broke my HSS threading tool (see photo).

This happened because I somehow failed to disengage the half nut lever. I guess I wasn’t used to the feel of this particular lever.

Once the machine was turned off (I used the foot brake), the 60° tool was jammed against the chuck jaws, and I wasn’t able to disengage the half nut lever. I was a little concerned that I wouldn’t be able to get the machine going again because the half nut lever was stuck engaged and the form tool was very tight up against the chuck jaws.

The carriage was also flush up against my micrometer stop. I had to move that back out of the way and loosen the QCTP to make room to slide the tool holder back toward me. 

Even then, I had to allow the still engaged half nut/leadscrew coupling to continue a little toward the headstock until I could disengage the half nut lever. This all makes the case for practicing the threading maneuvers out where there is room to do so.


----------



## erikmannie

I tried to recover by forming threads with the tool holder set up like this, but that definitely didn’t work. This set up must be for the chuck moving in reverse.


----------



## erikmannie

Regarding the headstock alignment, I am going to assume for now that it is A-OK from the factory.

I only have the weekends in November to play with the lathe (I have another project that I have to finish in December ), and I’m trying to get 50 hours on it so that I can change the oil.


----------



## matthewsx

She's no longer innocent....

You know the old saying, stuff happens, and by stuff well, you know what I mean  
You'll get it.

John


----------



## mmcmdl

I have plenty of those thread tools for Aloris's Eric . Grind her on down and have another shot at it .


----------



## Aukai

Eric you have enough time at the chuck with this machine, and your other one to start turning it up. It took my 2 years after getting my lath before I had a project that I had to use it. My break-in run following directions, and going to 2000 RPM, I did not want t stand anywhere near it. You need to use the parameters of the material, and the cutters, including tool angles to get the best results. I was writing this as you were posting. All kinds of things are going to go wrong no matter what. there is a lot going on, some of these dials are too close, and you will grab the wrong one too on occasion. I have ruined a perfect final pass everything right till, I moved and hit the cross feed dial


----------



## mmcmdl

Aukai said:


> get the best results. I was writing this as you were posting. All kinds of things are going to go wrong no matter what. there is a lot going on, some of these dials are too close, and you will grab the wrong one too on occasion. I have ruined a perfect final pass evey thing right till I moved and hit the cross feed dial



This NEVER happens to us " professionals " .  I will tell anyone that ever crashes a machine . It won't be the first time , and it won't be the last ! If you're not f'n up , you're not learning .


----------



## erikmannie

The high RPMs and the lathe dog was certainly not a good combination because it caused vibration above 620 RPM.

I got very used to my PM-1030V, and I am still just a little intimidated by the beast.

I definitely enjoy failing because I always learn something.


----------



## Aukai

I was referring more to working with the chuck....


----------



## mmcmdl

erikmannie said:


> beast.



That's still just a toy !


----------



## erikmannie

Aukai said:


> I was referring more to working with the chuck....



I am ready to use high RPMs as long as the lathe dogs stay in the drawer.


----------



## mmcmdl

I don't think I ever had the need for a dog in the lathes , definately in the cylindrical grinders over the years . If I need to turn a whole surface of something , I rough it down to near size and finish it between centers without a drive mechanism .


----------



## erikmannie

I was threading 1/4-20 with the cold rolled steel this morning. The first thread I made turned out poorly (bent one in photo), and then I bent it while putting on a final chamfer.

So I finally got a good one (straight one in chuck shown below). The safety groove is ridiculously long because one time I mistook the cross slide handwheel for the carriage handwheel & accidentally cut into the work.


----------



## erikmannie

My RPM when threading was 105, which was almost too slow. I was flooding the work with CF.

My Shars thread screw micrometer has always worked nicely.

I think I’m going to get a hold of some hex and form some metric threads for fun. I still have never made metric threads.


----------



## mattthemuppet2

that's some pretty crazy stick out there - 3-4x diameter is a good rule of thumb


----------



## erikmannie

mattthemuppet2 said:


> that's some pretty crazy stick out there - 3-4x diameter is a good rule of thumb



I definitely had it supported the whole time! I took the live center out to test the nut.

I always use a center if stickout exceeds 3.5X the diameter.


----------



## erikmannie

I sent an email to PM to ask about putting an MT6 dead center in this spindle. 

The through hole looks to be a straight 2.55” all the way through, but all dimensions of an MT6 taper are less than 2.5” (see screenshot).

The PM manual says that the headstock spindle taper is MT6, but I think that the manual is also shared with a PM-1440TL.

I will be finding out the answer to this because I bought a 14” diameter D1-6 face plate that has a 3” center hole. I have not been able to figure it out how I will get a dead center in the spindle.

PM supplied a reducing sleeve with the PM-1660TL that accepts an MT4 dead center. I have used that sleeve with the chucks, and that worked fine. Unfortunately, this reducing sleeve is less than 3” in diameter, so I will not be able to put it in the center of the face plate like I did with the chucks.

I am very curious as to how this problem will be solved. Maybe I will have to machine a reducing sleeve (with an MT4 or MT6 taper on the inside) that can slide in the 3” center hole of the face plate.


----------



## erikmannie

I wonder if chucks and face plates have a taper in the center hole.

I have always slid a Morse taper dead center in to the center hole of a chuck, and it worked fine.

I have also converted a tapered dead center into a straight shank and then clamped that straight shank in to a chuck, but you’re not doing that on a face plate.

Here are some pictures of the face plate that I have coming. I can’t tell if the center hole has a taper:


----------



## erikmannie

Now it would appear that spindle through holes are always straight, so the only place to grip a dead center would be on the chuck, face plate, dog driver or backing plate.


----------



## davidpbest

My PM lathe has a MT spindle nose.  Beyond the taper, the spindle bore is straight walled.


----------



## AlanB

The pm-1660 description implies that the adapter fits into the internal taper of the spindle. Have you tried that? 


*Spindle:*


_Spindle Mount D1-6 Camlock Quick Change_
_Internal taper of Spindle (With included reducing sleeve) MT 4_
_Spindle bore 2.55” in. diameter (will pass a 2.500″ piece)_


----------



## erikmannie

davidpbest said:


> My PM lathe has a MT spindle nose.  Beyond the taper, the spindle bore is straight walled.




“Spindle nose” explains it all! Only tonight did I learn that the spindle bore (what I have been calling a “through hole”) is straight walled. 

Until this moment, I did not realize that a spindle nose exists, and that is why I kept asking about the taper in the center hole of a chuck, dog driver, backing plate or face plate.

I have been doing it wrong. I have been trying to put Morse taper dead centers in the center hole of my chucks.

Live & learn.


----------



## Downunder Bob

erikmannie said:


> I tried a 1/4-20 thread tonight, and on the scratch pass I crashed the 60° HSS cutter into the work very near the chuck. The 60° form tool went past my safety groove (the length where I intended to disengage the half nut lever) and into the round stock that I had sticking out (which I never intended on getting into). This broke my HSS threading tool (see photo).
> 
> This happened because I somehow failed to disengage the half nut lever. I guess I wasn’t used to the feel of this particular lever.
> 
> Once the machine was turned off (I used the foot brake), the 60° tool was jammed against the chuck jaws, and I wasn’t able to disengage the half nut lever. I was a little concerned that I wouldn’t be able to get the machine going again because the half nut lever was stuck engaged and the form tool was very tight up against the chuck jaws.
> 
> The carriage was also flush up against my micrometer stop. I had to move that back out of the way and loosen the QCTP to make room to slide the tool holder back toward me.
> 
> Even then, I had to allow the still engaged half nut/leadscrew coupling to continue a little toward the headstock until I could disengage the half nut lever. This all makes the case for practicing the threading maneuvers out where there is room to do so.
> 
> View attachment 344193



Get on the internet and find Joe Pyzinskie videos. He ha s a sure fire method of screw cutting both internal and external, guaranteed you will never crash the tool into the chuck, you will always get good result This method also allows you to run at higher speeds which will improve finish. It's bulletproof.


----------



## erikmannie

AlanB said:


> The pm-1660 description implies that the adapter fits into the internal taper of the spindle. Have you tried that?
> 
> 
> *Spindle:*
> 
> 
> _Spindle Mount D1-6 Camlock Quick Change_
> _Internal taper of Spindle (With included reducing sleeve) MT 4_
> _Spindle bore 2.55” in. diameter (will pass a 2.500″ piece)_



No, I have never tried that. I always had a 3 or 4 jaw chuck mounted up while trying to insert a dead center. Now that I realize how it is supposed to work, I can see why I had such difficulty.

So apparently chucks, face plates and the like do not have a taper in the center hole.

The thing that threw me off was the dimension for the maximum diameter of an MT6 taper (2.4940”). Reading that my lathe can pass a 2.5” bar, it sounded like I would be able to slide an MT6 dead center all the way through. I still don’t understand how something with a 2.55” diameter can have a 6MT if the max diameter of a 6MT is 2.4940”.

Apparently this all gets sorted out at the spindle nose. I will be very interested to get a nice close look at the spindle nose when I install the face plate.

Note: Alan B. helped me install 4 jaw chucks (in person!) on both of my lathes last weekend.


----------



## davidpbest

If the bore of your spindle is 2.5”, the only Morse Taper that the spindle nose could have is MT7.  Every other MT taper is smaller at both ends than the ID of your spindle.  An MT7 taper is 2.75” at the small end. An M6  is 2.116” at the small end which would constrain the spindle bore to less than 2.5”.


----------



## erikmannie

davidpbest said:


> If the bore of your spindle is 2.5”, the only Morse Taper that the spindle nose could have is MT7.  Every other MT taper is smaller at both ends than the ID of your spindle.  An MT7 taper is 2.75” at the small end. An M6  is 2.116” at the small end which would constrain the spindle bore to less than 2.5”.



This is the mystery! I have an email in to PM tech, and I will post on here the contents of their reply.

How horrifying would it be if I found out that I had no taper in the spindle nose?

My machine has a D1-6 camlock, so the question is: what are the dimensions and angle of the internal taper of a D1-6 camlock spindle nose?

That question is not answered here:





__





						Lathe Spindle Nose Mounting Identification Chart
					

Lathe Spindle Nose Mounting Identification Chart




					www.smalltools.com


----------



## erikmannie

Downunder Bob said:


> Get on the internet and find Joe Pyzinskie videos. He ha s a sure fire method of screw cutting both internal and external, guaranteed you will never crash the tool into the chuck, you will always get good result This method also allows you to run at higher speeds which will improve finish. It's bulletproof.



I have watched most of Joe Pie’s videos several times. He is amazing! As I recall, I was reluctant to try the “threading away from the headstock” because I think he turned his threading tool upside down. Until I get more experience, I want to keep those forces pushing down on the carriage. I’m sure it’s fine to pull up, however.


----------



## davidpbest

erikmannie said:


> This is the mystery! I have an email in to PM tech, and I will post on here the contents of their reply.
> 
> How horrifying would it be if I found out that I had no taper in the spindle nose?


Oh, it would be so horrifying that you should machine an MT7 taper into the spindle nose yourself.  What a great opportunity to learn how to cut tapers!  I’m sure Joe Pie will teach you how.


----------



## Ianagos

davidpbest said:


> Oh, it would be so horrifying that you should machine an MT7 taper into the spindle nose yourself. What a great opportunity to learn how to cut tapers! I’m sure Joe Pie will teach you how.



I don’t think I’d try that just yet


Hopefully I can clarify a few things for you.

You don’t need any chucks mounted to use a center in the headstock.

The spindle nose refers to the small outside taper and mounting flange that is d1-6 on your lathe

The inside of the front of the spindle is very likely to be tapered. I haven’t seen a lathe where it’s not. But the tapers vary. Your lathe should have come with a tapered reducing sleeve. It may have just looked like a ground cylinder with a hole in it.

Once you find this or order one from pm you need to remove your chuck and then clean the first few inch of the spindle bore very well. Then also clean the adaptor inside and out. 

Most likely the adaptor fits the same size centers as your tailstock although that’s not always the case. Therefore I’d say it’s probably an mt4. Clean and mt4 center and slide it in it should seat just like in your tailstock.

Then lastly you can add a faceplate if you want. Or a chuck. Old school would be to use a face driver plate but not many people have one.


----------



## AlanB

Erik, I wonder why you are looking for some other taper in the spindle. They only claim MT4 with the included adapter. So I suspect the spindle taper is not a standard one, and only the adapter supplied matches the custom taper in the spindle bore. One task would be to document that taper so you could make other items that would directly fit into it. 

The fact that they didn't use a standard taper in the spindle suggests some reason for not doing so.  Perhaps PM will reply soon and shed some light on the issue.



AlanB said:


> The pm-1660 description implies that the adapter fits into the internal taper of the spindle. Have you tried that?
> 
> *Spindle:*
> 
> _Spindle Mount D1-6 Camlock Quick Change_
> _Internal taper of Spindle (With included reducing sleeve) MT 4_
> _Spindle bore 2.55” in. diameter (will pass a 2.500″ piece)_


----------



## Just for fun

Erik,  I just read through this thread.  That sounds like a really nice setup you have.  I don't even have a lathe yet, but I sure enjoy learning.


----------



## erikmannie

It will be interesting to see if the reducing sleeve has the same angle as a #7 Morse taper (1.4894°).


----------



## ddickey

MT7 on the outside and MT4 on the inside.


----------



## JRaut

ddickey said:


> MT7 on the outside and MT4 on the inside.


Reminds me of this mid-'oughts hit:


----------



## MikeWi

Matt is not around to consult with, but I suspect it must be a MT7 taper as well. Curiously, the manual says " 3. D1-6 Camlock MT#6 Spindle "
but that would not make any sense.


----------



## ddickey

Ø70 mm (2.76") Taper 1/19.18 MT x NO.4


----------



## ddickey

Seems to me we had this discussion somewhere before.


----------



## ddickey

Just think out loud here. The spindle taper is not a morse taper but the inner sleeve is an MT4?
Okay, 1/19.18 is just a morse taper angle of 1.49°.


----------



## erikmannie

I was all ready to buy a Morse Taper #7 dead center. I planned to use the part of the dead center that has the exact same outer dimensions as my reducing sleeve, but cut to length to allow for a 60° nose at an appropriate working length. The idea here is to just have a solid dead center (i.e. no reducing sleeve). Not that there’s anything wrong with reducing sleeves!

However, I took a close look at the dimensions of the reducing sleeve, and I saw that a 7MT dead center would only be able to be pushed in (to the spindle nose) for only 1/2” until the dead center reached the point where it couldn’t go in any further.

I HAD thought that the supplied reducing sleeve may have been a shortened “MT7 outside and MT4 inside” socket (or collet). This is NOT the case because the smallest diameter of an MT7 (2.7500”) can only be pushed in to the spindle nose for a distance of 1/2”.

I now believe that the outer dimensions of the reducing sleeve supplied with the PM-1660TL do not correspond to a shortened 7MT shank. It MAY have the same ANGLE of taper as an MT7, but most of the length of the reducing sleeve has a diameter that is too small to be found on a #7 Morse taper.

I just bought a 12” length of 3” diameter cold rolled 1018 ($66 delivered), and I will attempt to make a dead center. I will copy the outer dimensions of the reducing sleeve and then extend that taper angle out several inches to a 60° tip. Not my first choice of material, but it fits my budget.

Cliff Notes version: This lathe appears to have a spindle nose with custom dimensions, perhaps because in order to obtain a 2.55” spindle through hole, 6MT is too small and 7MT is too big.


----------



## Dabbler

@erikmannie I'm late to the discussion (I think I've read it druing it's early posts)  my apologies if I've repeated another post.

I use a machined centre in my 3 jaw instead of a centre in the headstock taper.  I just chuck up a piece of steel in the chuck and turn it to 60 degrees.  every time I need it again I just re-cut the 60 degree by a few thou.  It must always be perfectly concentric with the rotation, unless your headstock is very loose.

This process takes about a minute each time - less time than it takes to remove the 3 jaw chick...


----------



## Jim F

erikmannie said:


> I have watched most of Joe Pie’s videos several times. He is amazing! As I recall, I was reluctant to try the “threading away from the headstock” because I think he turned his threading tool upside down. Until I get more experience, I want to keep those forces pushing down on the carriage. I’m sure it’s fine to pull up, however.


He has 40+ yrs doing it, it is easy.


----------



## erikmannie

Dabbler said:


> @erikmannie I'm late to the discussion (I think I've read it druing it's early posts)  my apologies if I've repeated another post.
> 
> I use a machined centre in my 3 jaw instead of a centre in the headstock taper.  I just chuck up a piece of steel in the chuck and turn it to 60 degrees.  every time I need it again I just re-cut the 60 degree by a few thou.  It must always be perfectly concentric with the rotation, unless your headstock is very loose.
> 
> This process takes about a minute each time - less time than it takes to remove the 3 jaw chick...



So it sounds like this machined center has a straight or hexagonal shank. I have done this using a dead center with a straight shank in a 3J, and it worked perfectly.

The main reason that I bought a face plate is because I prefer to do stuff like machinists did a long time ago (before there were good chucks!).

Since there are no time machines, this is as close as I can get to traveling back in time.

History is fun:


----------



## Jim F

erikmannie said:


> I was all ready to buy a Morse Taper #7 dead center. I planned to use the part of the dead center that has the exact same outer dimensions as my reducing sleeve, but cut to length to allow for a 60° nose at an appropriate working length. The idea here is to just have a solid dead center (i.e. no reducing sleeve). Not that there’s anything wrong with reducing sleeves!
> 
> However, I took a close look at the dimensions of the reducing sleeve, and I saw that a 7MT dead center would only be able to be pushed in (to the spindle nose) for only 1/2” until the dead center reached the point where it couldn’t go in any further.
> 
> I HAD thought that the supplied reducing sleeve may have been a shortened “MT7 outside and MT4 inside” socket (or collet). This is NOT the case because the smallest diameter of an MT7 (2.7500”) can only be pushed in to the spindle nose for a distance of 1/2”.
> 
> I now believe that the outer dimensions of the reducing sleeve supplied with the PM-1660TL do not correspond to a shortened 7MT shank. It MAY have the same ANGLE of taper as an MT7, but most of the length of the reducing sleeve has a diameter that is too small to be found on a #7 Morse taper.
> 
> I just bought a 12” length of 3” diameter cold rolled 1018 ($66 delivered), and I will attempt to make a dead center. I will copy the outer dimensions of the reducing sleeve and then extend that taper angle out several inches to a 60° tip. Not my first choice of material, but it fits my budget.
> 
> Cliff Notes version: This lathe appears to have a spindle nose with custom dimensions, perhaps because in order to obtain a 2.55” spindle through hole,* 6MT is too small and 7MT is too big.*


Maybe PM made a 6 1/2 taper, also........


----------



## erikmannie

Jim F said:


> Maybe PM made a 6 1/2 taper, also........



I have all but concluded that the taper in the spindle nose is larger than an MT6 and smaller than an MT7.

It is just a good thing that I have a lathe so that I can make my own dead center! I think I can handle cutting a taper, especially when I have the part that I am trying to reproduce in my possession.

I have been watching YouTube videos on this, and it looks like once I have the taper set correctly it will go quickly to knock out a few of them.

Maybe I can have a side hustle selling Morse Taper 6 1/2 reducing sleeves & dead centers. I gather that there is very little competition.


----------



## Jim F

erikmannie said:


> I have all but concluded that the taper in the spindle nose is larger than an MT6 and smaller than an MT7.
> 
> It is just a good thing that I have a lathe so that I can make my own dead center! I think I can handle cutting a taper, especially when I have the part that I am trying to reproduce in my possession.
> 
> I have been watching YouTube videos on this, and it looks like once I have the taper set correctly it will go quickly to knock out a few of them.
> 
> Maybe I can have a side hustle selling Morse Taper 6 1/2 reducing sleeves & dead centers. I gather that there is very little competition.


Make a 5 1/2 taper, also.


----------



## erikmannie

Jim F said:


> Make a 5 1/2 taper, also.



And so I shall: the niche business of MT 5 1/2 and MT 6 1/2 reducing sleeves, blanks and stubby dead centers.


----------



## Larry$

Eric, good reason to buy a surface or cylindrical grinder. They look like great things to have for the Never complete" hobby shop. 

The practice of making non-standard spindle noses bothers me, alot. I understand why it is done. It sells more lathes to be able to claim a larger bore. It would cost more to provide a headstock with the room for and cost for he bigger bearings otherwise required.


----------



## erikmannie

Larry$ said:


> Eric, good reason to buy a surface or cylindrical grinder. They look like great things to have for the Never complete" hobby shop.
> 
> The practice of making non-standard spindle noses bothers me, alot. I understand why it is done. It sells more lathes to be able to claim a larger bore. It would cost more to provide a headstock with the room for and cost for he bigger bearings otherwise required.



Maybe after several years these non-standard Morse Tapers will become standard to a point where one would be able to buy a dead center, reduction sleeve or extension socket off the shelf.

It would appear that these non-standard sizes are a result of manufacturers’ desire to attain a large pass-through. That trend is not going away! 

Like I said above, I don’t see that chuck manufacturers are aware of this insofar as providing chucks with larger center holes keeping up with larger pass-throughs. 

For the people reading this who bought a lathe with a “larger than normal” pass-through, was the center hole of your chuck this diameter or larger?


----------



## erikmannie

Another important point (which I mentioned once above) is that the outer diameter at the small end of the reducing sleeve is larger than the pass-through diameter.

In other words, I would not be able to slide any tapered shank (say, for example an MT 6/12 dead center) fully seated into the taper of the spindle nose because the 2.55” pass-through is too small. 

The included reducing sleeve is crucial for seating a dead center when using a face plate or dog driver.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Dabbler said:


> @erikmannie I'm late to the discussion (I think I've read it druing it's early posts)  my apologies if I've repeated another post.
> 
> I use a machined centre in my 3 jaw instead of a centre in the headstock taper.  I just chuck up a piece of steel in the chuck and turn it to 60 degrees.  every time I need it again I just re-cut the 60 degree by a few thou.  It must always be perfectly concentric with the rotation, unless your headstock is very loose.
> 
> This process takes about a minute each time - less time than it takes to remove the 3 jaw chick...



Yes, I were taught to do this as an apprentice, much quicker and more accurate. Alyhough these days I rarely use a head stock centre.


----------



## erikmannie

Downunder Bob said:


> Yes, I were taught to do this as an apprentice, much quicker and more accurate. Alyhough these days I rarely use a head stock centre.



This is a fast way to do it, and with no drawbacks that I can think of. One just has to buy or cut a straight shank dead center and have bent tail lathe dogs to lay in front of a chuck jaw. Easy peasy.


----------



## Downunder Bob

That is exactly the way we were taught as apprentices some 60 years ago.


----------



## jbolt

erikmannie said:


> I was all ready to buy a Morse Taper #7 dead center. I planned to use the part of the dead center that has the exact same outer dimensions as my reducing sleeve, but cut to length to allow for a 60° nose at an appropriate working length. The idea here is to just have a solid dead center (i.e. no reducing sleeve). Not that there’s anything wrong with reducing sleeves!
> 
> However, I took a close look at the dimensions of the reducing sleeve, and I saw that a 7MT dead center would only be able to be pushed in (to the spindle nose) for only 1/2” until the dead center reached the point where it couldn’t go in any further.
> 
> I HAD thought that the supplied reducing sleeve may have been a shortened “MT7 outside and MT4 inside” socket (or collet). This is NOT the case because the smallest diameter of an MT7 (2.7500”) can only be pushed in to the spindle nose for a distance of 1/2”.
> 
> I now believe that the outer dimensions of the reducing sleeve supplied with the PM-1660TL do not correspond to a shortened 7MT shank. It MAY have the same ANGLE of taper as an MT7, but most of the length of the reducing sleeve has a diameter that is too small to be found on a #7 Morse taper.
> 
> I just bought a 12” length of 3” diameter cold rolled 1018 ($66 delivered), and I will attempt to make a dead center. I will copy the outer dimensions of the reducing sleeve and then extend that taper angle out several inches to a 60° tip. Not my first choice of material, but it fits my budget.
> 
> Cliff Notes version: This lathe appears to have a spindle nose with custom dimensions, perhaps because in order to obtain a 2.55” spindle through hole, 6MT is too small and 7MT is too big.


This is the same issue on the PM1440GT spindle. With a 2.06" bore and a D-5 spindle nose an MT5 is too small and an MT6 is to large so they supplied a custom reducer sleeve with a MT4 taper. PM calls it a MT5.5 which is not a standard taper.


----------



## erikmannie

jbolt said:


> This is the same issue on the PM1440GT spindle. With a 2.06" bore and a D-5 spindle nose an MT5 is too small and an MT6 is to large so they supplied a custom reducer sleeve with a MT4 taper. PM calls it a MT5.5 which is not a standard taper.



Yes, I have been closely following the parallel thread about that. 

I would like to know the dimensions of the reducing sleeve on a PM-1440GT as I can see myself cutting & selling stubby dead centers for people like myself that love face plates & want to work with a “one piece” dead center.

I will be making two “6 1/2 MT stubby dead centers” after the holidays. I will make a thread about it.


----------



## erikmannie

The 14” face plate that I bought on eBay for $180 delivered arrived today. It is a winner. 

Look at the amazing packing job by the Seller. This is what I will store in for the rest of my life.


----------



## jbolt

What is the issue with the faceplate using the factory supplied reducing sleeve for the MT4 center? 

I generally don't use a face plate for driving a lathe dog, only for holding awkward parts that cant be held in a 3 or 4 jaw. Face plates have rpm limitations which don't always work with what's being turned.

On the occasion I need to turn a long taper I use a setup similar to this. The photo below is on my old Smithy 1324 Granite which was my first home machine. I do something similar on my PM1440GT.


----------



## jbolt

erikmannie said:


> I would like to know the dimensions of the reducing sleeve on a PM-1440GT as I can see myself cutting & selling stubby dead centers for people like myself that love face plates & want to work with a “one piece” dead center.


I would be happy to get you dimensions but my shop and equipment has been packed up and is sitting in storage at our new place in Oregon. It will be close to another year before we make the move and I will be able to start unpacking


----------



## ddickey

Sort of what I just went through. Just got my lathe back after ~8 months.


----------



## erikmannie

Update on this lathe:

(1) Out of nowhere, my Dad offered to pay off my 26.25% APR institutional loan, and instead pay him 7.5% interest which saves me a LOT in interest. My Dad is a lifelong woodworker so he gets it. It is not a coincidence that I am all about working in the garage; I became like my Dad & Grandpa.

(2) I parted a piece of 3” diameter 1018 round stock today. It went very quickly. 

(3) I checked all my “lathe prep” tasks off of the list: changed oil in gearboxes, leveled the machine, got flood coolant system going, got all of the tooling that I wanted (except a 12” forged steel chuck with a huge center hole which will be entirely unaffordable for 2-3 years).

(4) I get a lot of visitors who come to see the big lathe, but so far nobody has wanted to try it out.

(5) I am working on “one-piece MT 6 1/2 dead centers” now. Very fun!

(6) The flood coolant system with cutting fluid (Mobilmet 766 Neat CF, an oil) in it is fantastic, but a little messy as one would expect.

(7) I have not yet tried the taper attachment.


----------



## matthewsx

Your dad is awesome, use some of the money saved to do something nice for him (like build some custom woodworking tools).

John


----------



## erikmannie

matthewsx said:


> Your dad is awesome, use some of the money saved to do something nice for him (like build some custom woodworking tools).
> 
> John



My Dad & I are carbon copies of each other, as was his Dad. We are pretty selfish & put our tool purchases first in line in the family budgets. Point being, my Dad has already bought himself everything that he wants. Having said that, I will hook him up with something special that he can’t buy.


----------



## xyz

I ordered the PM-1640TL on July 14, 2021.  Since then, they installed the DRO and the taper attachment.

They will ship it tomorrow.  Final leg of the shipment will be via a company that uses a flatbed and a forklift.  

The size of the crate is 74 inches tall; 42 inches wide; and 90 inches long.


----------



## xyz

Its been raining almost every day recently.  Not a good time to unpack a large crate in the open.   Keeping  my fingers crossed that next week will be dry.

Using the right-handed Cartesian coordinates, the crate dimensions from a corner is x=90, y=42, z=74 inches.  The garage door is opening is x=188 and z=81 inches.  But z is much less than 81 because of the closing mechanism.

I'll post the 'containing rectangle' dimensions after the top and side wooden crating  are removed, so that the next person receiving a 1640TL will have a easier time planning for its delivery.


----------



## Janderso

Yeah, you guys are having a good monsoon, here in California we haven't seen rain in months with many more to go before the normal rainy season.
I sure wish you would send some up our way.


----------



## xyz

I ordered CXA QCTP tool post with tool holders from PrecisionMattews.  I ordered three cxa tool holders from three different sources, one from each source, to compare the quality.   Each tool holder was less than $30.00, delivered.  I consider this a $90 dollar test.

The first cxa 250-302 has no brand-name and is from Amazon.

All measurements are in inches, using a cheap, electronic caliper, and two pins 0.249 +/- 0.001, so the dovetail width can not be better than +/- 0.001

The block measures x=4.289; y=1.393; z=2.132; 
tool opening = 0.769;  

maximum height adjustment =1.09
height adjustment screw extremity above top of block = 1.383

The dovetail depth = 0.559 
Dovetail width = 2.218

Next week, I'll be able to tell how well this tool holder fits into the QCTP.


----------



## MtnBiker

xyz said:


> I ordered CXA QCTP tool post with tool holders from PrecisionMattews.  I ordered three cxa tool holders from three different sources, one from each source, to compare the quality.   Each tool holder was less than $30.00, delivered.  I consider this a $90 dollar test.
> 
> The first cxa 250-302 has no brand-name and is from Amazon.
> 
> All measurements are in inches, using a cheap, electronic caliper, and two pins 0.249 +/- 0.001, so the dovetail width can not be better than +/- 0.001
> 
> The block measures x=4.289; y=1.393; z=2.132;
> tool opening = 0.769;
> 
> maximum height adjustment =1.09
> height adjustment screw extremity above top of block = 1.383
> 
> The dovetail depth = 0.559
> Dovetail width = 2.218
> 
> Next week, I'll be able to tell how well this tool holder fits into the QCTP.


I'd recommend our fellow forum member's book Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide. David Best does a great job de-mystifying indexable tooling so you can buy quality without breaking the bank and limiting your failed experiments. You can find it here.


----------



## Jake P

MtnBiker said:


> I'd recommend our fellow forum member's book Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide. David Best does a great job de-mystifying indexable tooling so you can buy quality without breaking the bank and limiting your failed experiments. You can find it here.


I'll second that!!  It is well worth the price.


----------



## mksj

Since this was a recent discussion, why does one need a drive dog with turning between centers when you can chuck up one end in a 4J chuck and use a center at the other end?

The PM TL series is very nice, have used them before and a great lathe, was just a bit too heavy for me to get into my place and also to deal with going from a D1-4 to a D1-6 spindle. Still nice to have the extra spindle bore.


----------



## xr650rRider

mksj said:


> Since this was a recent discussion, why does one need a drive dog with turning between centers when you can chuck up one end in a 4J chuck and use a center at the other end?


When you have something like a rifle barrel, where the bore is not concentric to the OD.


----------



## xyz

MtnBiker said:


> I'd recommend our fellow forum member's book Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide. David Best does a great job de-mystifying indexable tooling so you can buy quality without breaking the bank and limiting your failed experiments. You can find it here.


Thank you.


----------



## mksj

xr650rRider said:


> When you have something like a rifle barrel, where the bore is not concentric to the OD.


The purpose of a 4J independent is so you can dial out the offset, otherwise I have seen people use a spider on both ends to get barrel concentricity. I understand the purpose of a lathe dog, that the centers define the center point but is seems a bit archaic, I cannot recall a circumstance that I would use it over a 4J.


----------



## xr650rRider

Spider is great on both ends but what about a 16" barrel and your headstock is 19" wide.  Hard to dial in the bore center if it's held in a 4 jaw on same end.  If you have ever seen a Thompson Encore or Contender, they have a lug on breech end, you can hold it in a 3 jaw but again bore is not necessarily concentric.  But using a center and a dog, you can.  Archaic or not, it's sometimes necessary.

More than 1 way to skin a cat and the cat rarely likes any of them.
Mike Bellm Precision recrown


----------



## xyz

mksj said:


> The purpose of a 4J independent is so you can dial out the offset, otherwise I have seen people use a spider on both ends to get barrel concentricity. I understand the purpose of a lathe dog, that the centers define the center point but is seems a bit archaic, I cannot recall a circumstance that I would use it over a 4J.


Multi-start thread, or timing the thread?


----------



## erikmannie

xyz said:


> I ordered the PM-1640TL on July 14, 2021.  Since then, they installed the DRO and the taper attachment.
> 
> They will ship it tomorrow.  Final leg of the shipment will be via a company that uses a flatbed and a forklift.
> 
> The size of the crate is 74 inches tall; 42 inches wide; and 90 inches long.



You are going to love that lathe! I have used mine so much, and I don’t remember having a single problem.


----------



## erikmannie

mksj said:


> The purpose of a 4J independent is so you can dial out the offset, otherwise I have seen people use a spider on both ends to get barrel concentricity. I understand the purpose of a lathe dog, that the centers define the center point but is seems a bit archaic, I cannot recall a circumstance that I would use it over a 4J.



I love turning between centers for the historical interest.

I will say the same thing about gas welding.

It’s the next best thing to having access to a time machine!


----------



## xyz

erikmannie said:


> You are going to love that lathe! I have used mine so much, and I don’t remember having a single problem.


Do you know where I can find the relative locations of the 6 feet ( the height adjustment bolts) ?  I am trying to locate the machine so that all the feet are on one concrete pad.  

I am in the middle of reading this thread, but there are now 57 pages.

If that information is not published, could I ask you to make a quick measurement?

Thank you.


----------



## xyz

MtnBiker said:


> I'd recommend our fellow forum member's book Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide. David Best does a great job de-mystifying indexable tooling so you can buy quality without breaking the bank and limiting your failed experiments. You can find it here.


I ordered the book.


----------



## Aaron_W

erikmannie said:


> I love turning between centers for the historical interest.
> 
> I will say the same thing about gas welding.
> 
> It’s the next best thing to having access to a time machine!



Sometime "obsolete" is still the best option when it is available. 

I also enjoy doing things as it used to be done, simply because it helps me to understand why things changed, and sometimes I find that there is in fact a reason that some machines / techniques stick around long after they have been replaced in general use. Sometimes the old ways are just old, sometimes they still remain a very useful way to do things but only on a very limited basis. This helps to explain why many well equipped shops still have power hacksaws, shapers, die filers and oxy acetylene sets parked in dark corners.


----------



## xyz

Dabbler said:


> @erikmannie I'm late to the discussion (I think I've read it druing it's early posts)  my apologies if I've repeated another post.
> 
> I use a machined centre in my 3 jaw instead of a centre in the headstock taper.  I just chuck up a piece of steel in the chuck and turn it to 60 degrees.  every time I need it again I just re-cut the 60 degree by a few thou.  It must always be perfectly concentric with the rotation, unless your headstock is very loose.
> 
> This process takes about a minute each time - less time than it takes to remove the 3 jaw chick...


Refreshing !


----------



## xyz

My lathe, mill, and band saw from Precision Matthew are on a road trip.  They have been in Dayton and Willow Springs (near Chicago) in the past few days.  Looks like the average progress is about 200 miles a day.

They can take their time, as long as the crates are not dropped.

The delivery point is the parking pad in front of the garage: unloaded by a fork lift.  I hope it doesn't rain on the delivery day.

@erikmannie Thank you for the pictures of your machine when you took delivery.  The details of how it was crated has helped me plan on how to uncrate and move the machine into position, inside of the garage.​
I intend to take some still pictures and measurements while unpacking.  Maybe that will help others who are waiting for their machines.


----------



## xyz

xyz said:


> I ordered the book.


This is an excellent book.  I recommend it to all who are interested in carbide index tools and inserts.

It discuses both inch and metric naming convention.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.


----------



## xyz

xyz said:


> My lathe, mill, and band saw from Precision Matthew are on a road trip.  They have been in Dayton and Willow Springs (near Chicago) in the past few days.  Looks like the average progress is about 200 miles a day.
> 
> They can take their time, as long as the crates are not dropped.
> 
> The delivery point is the parking pad in front of the garage: unloaded by a fork lift.  I hope it doesn't rain on the delivery day.
> 
> @erikmannie Thank you for the pictures of your machine when you took delivery.  The details of how it was crated has helped me plan on how to uncrate and move the machine into position, inside of the garage.​
> I intend to take some still pictures and measurements while unpacking.  Maybe that will help others who are waiting for their machines.


The shipment made it to Albuquerque, NM, about 100 miles from my home.  The last leg of the transit will be on a flat bed (with a fork lift).  It is scheduled for delivery Monday, August 16, afternoon.  Delivery point will be the parking pad in front of the garage.

Weather forecast for Monday afternoon:  possible rain.


----------



## xyz

The lathe, mill, and the saw were delivered at 6:00 pm on the 17th.  It's just as well that they were a day later than they said, because on Monday afternoon, it rained a lot.  It was getting dark so I hardly got started before it was too dark to continue.  But I could see that the machine was inside a giant plastic bag.  It would be ok even if it rained during the night.

Wednesday was a long day.  I uncrated the 1640.  It turns out that the crate was originally nailed together:  but I think at PM they remove the nails at the foot of the vertical wood slats to get access to the machine, then they screw the cage back together.  I removed the screws; I also removed the front panel (just had to take a look at it.)  The three remaining sides and the top were then removed as a unit with two home built gantries.

Removal of four bolts (each near a leveling bolt) enabled the gantries to lift the machine a few inches, enough to slide the bottom of the crate away.  The gantries are on wheels, but the weight was such that the twelve 5-inch wheels would not turn.   Nor would polyurethane wheeled machine skates would not roll with the weight of the machine.  Finally, success came with a 2.5-ton pallet jack.  One of its wheels is about 10 inches.  The gantries were left in place and came along.  This was in case of a tip over, the gantries would stop a complete rollover.  Safety first.

But because the parking pad and the garage floor are at about 5/8 inch slope per 10 feet, it was hard to push it into the garage.  I had to use a 1x6 sacrificial board (so the painted garage floor would not be marked) and a 2x4 as a lever, wedge push stick.  I could move it a few inches at a time, but the roll back (from the slope in the garage floor) would take back each gain, until I wedged the wheel as the lathe was pushed into the garage.

It was in the garage by 8:00 pm, just as it started to sprinkle.

Today I opened the second crate and started to take inventory of the small items which were shipped with the lathe.

Tomorrow, the lathe will find its long-term location;  and I will put together the 728 VT mill and its base.  It requires lifting the mill about 30+ inches.  Gantry?


----------



## Tipton1965

xyz said:


> It requires lifting the mill about 30+ inches.  Gantry?


Use an engine hoist.


----------



## xyz

Tipton1965 said:


> Use an engine hoist.
> View attachment 375811


Thanks for the advice.

Your hoist has parallel feet.  My hoist feet go out at an angle.


----------



## Dabbler

nice hoist!!


----------



## Tipton1965

xyz said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> Your hoist has parallel feet.  My hoist feet go out at an angle.


The one I used was a rental.


----------



## xyz

I wanted to make some quick measurements of the lathe, but ended up doing a first cleaning.  WD-40 removes the protective coating quite well.

I noticed that on the cross slide, near the center, at the center of four bolts, there is a threaded hole, but no screw.  Is there a missing screw?

If anyone installed the taper unit, maybe you can tell me if there is a missing screw, or if I should somehow plug the threaded hole.  Thanks.


----------



## xyz

jbolt said:


> What is the issue with the faceplate using the factory supplied reducing sleeve for the MT4 center?
> 
> I generally don't use a face plate for driving a lathe dog, only for holding awkward parts that cant be held in a 3 or 4 jaw. Face plates have rpm limitations which don't always work with what's being turned.
> 
> On the occasion I need to turn a long taper I use a setup similar to this. The photo below is on my old Smithy 1324 Granite which was my first home machine. I do something similar on my PM1440GT.
> 
> View attachment 346876


Thank you for the picture of how to use the supplied MT-4 reducing sleeve.  I couldn't quite picture how to use the supplied part until your picture.


----------



## xyz

xyz said:


> I wanted to make some quick measurements of the lathe, but ended up doing a first cleaning.  WD-40 removes the protective coating quite well.
> 
> I noticed that on the cross slide, near the center, at the center of four bolts, there is a threaded hole, but no screw.  Is there a missing screw?
> 
> If anyone installed the taper unit, maybe you can tell me if there is a missing screw, or if I should somehow plug the threaded hole.  Thanks.


There is a set screw in there: item 102, 6x30, pages 61 and 63 of the manual, that I downloaded recently.

Hence, it is not a missing thing.  I think I'll put a tape over the opening to keep out the gunk.

It was my first dumb technical assistance call to Precision Matthew.  They are probably having a good laugh: TGIF !


----------



## BladesIIB

Glad you got it sorted. Just checked mine and was sending you this picture to confirm there is one in there. 3mm. Just deep. I have it uncovered and it was full of chips and seems fine uncovered. Tape will likely get oily and messy.

Also, I find that Kerosene works better than WD-40 when cleaning a whole machine. Stiff brush to apply, let it sit a bit and hard plastic scraper like for window tinting to scrape off the flats. Repeated brushing for things like the lead screw. I use a cup and sort of reclaim the kerosene until it is to full of gunk then get a fresh bit in the cup. Cleans well and won’t hurt the paint. Good luck.


----------



## xyz

BladesIIB said:


> Glad you got it sorted. Just checked mine and was sending you this picture to confirm there is one in there. 3mm. Just deep. I have it uncovered and it was full of chips and seems fine uncovered. Tape will likely get oily and messy.
> 
> Also, I find that Kerosene works better than WD-40 when cleaning a whole machine. Stiff brush to apply, let it sit a bit and hard plastic scraper like for window tinting to scrape off the flats. Repeated brushing for things like the lead screw. I use a cup and sort of reclaim the kerosene until it is to full of gunk then get a fresh bit in the cup. Cleans well and won’t hurt the paint. Good luck.


Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## xyz

BladesIIB said:


> Glad you got it sorted. Just checked mine and was sending you this picture to confirm there is one in there. 3mm. Just deep. I have it uncovered and it was full of chips and seems fine uncovered. Tape will likely get oily and messy.
> 
> Also, I find that Kerosene works better than WD-40 when cleaning a whole machine. Stiff brush to apply, let it sit a bit and hard plastic scraper like for window tinting to scrape off the flats. Repeated brushing for things like the lead screw. I use a cup and sort of reclaim the kerosene until it is to full of gunk then get a fresh bit in the cup. Cleans well and won’t hurt the paint. Good luck.


Yes.  The picture is exactly what I was talking about earlier.  It looked like a missing screw to a novice.


----------



## xyz

How much does the 9 inch, 3 jaw chuck ( with back plate) weigh?

The 10 inch, 4 jaw is listed as 55 pounds.

What is a safe way to handle the weight when changing chucks?


----------



## BladesIIB

The 3 Jaw is noticeably heavier. I would guess 75-80 lbs. I made some cradles from the 4x4’s of the pallet. That makes them easy to slide in and out of the spindle.  A cradle is not required, Just make sure you have something across the ways to protect the lathe when moving chucks.  I also recommend marking the 4 jaw if not already so you put it on the same every time. Not as critical as a 3 jaw but still seems like a good idea to ensure the cams engage the same every time.


----------



## xyz

Thanks for the pictures.  The skid is very cool.  I used to be able to lift 100 pounds and not think much of it.  But now, I don't have the confidence.  Also, its different than lifting weights in a gym where dropping the weight can not be compared to dropping a chuck in the shop.

How do you safely get the chuck onto and off the skid?

Is it ok to mill wood on a metal milling machine?  What happens to the saw dust when it absorbs oil?


----------



## BladesIIB

On and off the Chuck cradle I just carry it still. But don’t have to hold long to align it so pretty quick lift and out in the open on the ways.  The cradle is a nice fit to align the cams so slide it over to get it in place and when you are pulling the Chuck off it slips out of the spindle and right onto the cradle. 

Machining wood on any metalwork machine is fine. Just have to clean up the mess. I try to wipe up any protective oil before doing wood to make for easier clean up, and then be sure to oil well after since the wood dust will suck away any remaining oil. Oily wood chips are just oily wood chips. Nothing special about them. If you have ever run a chainsaw you have dealt with oily wood chips.


----------



## xyz

BladesIIB said:


> On and off the Chuck cradle I just carry it still. But don’t have to hold long to align it so pretty quick lift and out in the open on the ways.  The cradle is a nice fit to align the cams so slide it over to get it in place and when you are pulling the Chuck off it slips out of the spindle and right onto the cradle.
> 
> Machining wood on any metalwork machine is fine. Just have to clean up the mess. I try to wipe up any protective oil before doing wood to make for easier clean up, and then be sure to oil well after since the wood dust will suck away any remaining oil. Oily wood chips are just oily wood chips. Nothing special about them. If you have ever run a chainsaw you have dealt with oily wood chips.


Thanks.   Good to know, about wood on metal machines.


----------



## Cletus

"Thanks.   Good to know, about wood on metal machines."
+1


----------



## xyz

Below the text, there is a portion of a picture from the PM site of a PM-1640TL.  It shows the cross slide with a small hole on the right side of the slide.  My machine was ordered with a taper attachment and a DRO installed.  The DRO installation makes the hole inaccessible.

I am guessing that the small hole on the right side of the cross slide contains a set screw for locking the cross slide.  The manual does not show the hole, nor a set screw, if any.  If anyone has received a PM-1640TL without a DRO installed, can you please confirm what is there?

Yes, I know, I can call PM and ask.  But I already called them on a newbie question this week.

Does the taper unit make the lock unnecessary?


----------



## MikeWi

xyz said:


> Below the text, there is a portion of a picture from the PM site of a PM-1640TL.  It shows the cross slide with a small hole on the right side of the slide.  My machine was ordered with a taper attachment and a DRO installed.  The DRO installation makes the hole inaccessible.
> 
> Yes, I know, I can call PM and ask.  But I already called them on a newbie question this week.
> 
> Does the taper unit make the lock unnecessary?


You can move the scale and the read head away using spacers. This will allow you to get at the locking screw. Most people replace that screw with a hex head bolt which allows you to have the scale fit right up behind it while using a flat wrench to lock/unlock.

We allow 2 newbie questions a week!   

It does not make the lock unnecessary, but you wouldn't use it while using the taper attachment.


----------



## ddickey

If it's a magnetic scale you can cut the scale and place it so it does not cover the lock screw. That's how I did mine.


----------



## BladesIIB

I so rarely lock my cross slide that I just left mine covered. Will address if I ever need to.


----------



## xyz

MikeWi said:


> You can move the scale and the read head away using spacers. This will allow you to get at the locking screw. Most people replace that screw with a hex head bolt which allows you to have the scale fit right up behind it while using a flat wrench to lock/unlock.
> 
> We allow 2 newbie questions a week!
> 
> It does not make the lock unnecessary, but you wouldn't use it while using the taper attachment.


Thank goodness its end of a week, and tomorrow starts another week.

All this poking around is because the cross slide is unnaturally difficult to move.

I took off the cover of the DRO for the cross slide and below the scale (lower, closer to the floor) I can see there is a hole.   I can just get a ball ended hex tool in there and it will lock the cross slide.  I made sure it was unlocked, because I am tracking down why it is so hard to turn the handle to move the cross slide. (The taper unit was installed by PM.)

By the way, this lock is NOT documented 







I have to decide what to do about locking the cross slide, when it is desired to so so.

I even completely removed the gib.  Still hard to move the cross slide.  I did what the manual said to do with respect to set screw 102 and 103, even hitting the cross slide with a plastic hammer, in each direction.  I will play with 102 and 103 screws again tomorrow.

I finally have moved the lathe in to position.   The toe jack would have made it easier, but the replacement toe jack just arrived late today.  The toe jack will help in initial leveling of the lathe.  My garage floor slants noticeably.

Here is a thank you from a newbie to you for keeping me motivated.


----------



## xyz

BladesIIB said:


> I so rarely lock my cross slide that I just left mine covered. Will address if I ever need to.


Thank you for your reply.  I'll try to solve other mysteries, and find a solution, when I have to lock the cross slide.


----------



## xyz

ddickey said:


> If it's a magnetic scale you can cut the scale and place it so it does not cover the lock screw. That's how I did mine.


Thank you for your reply.  I wonder why PM didn't do that at installation time.


----------



## xyz

Now that I have the machine in place and a replacement toe jack delivered, my task tomorrow will be rough leveling the machine.

Then, figuring out how to set the parameters for the Yamaha VFD to get power to the lathe.  I read posts on how others have done it, so, I hope to follow what others have suggested and done.  I did read the manual.  It's humongous.  Initially I want 3 phase and see the spindle turn.


----------



## erikmannie

xyz said:


> …All this poking around is because the cross slide is unnaturally difficult to move.
> 
> …I am tracking down why it is so hard to turn the handle to move the cross slide. (The taper unit was installed by PM.)…
> 
> 
> I have to decide what to do about locking the cross slide, when it is desired to do so….



The 4 hex screws on top of the cross slide & the set screw (that you previously thought was a missing screw) are used to adjust the the cross slide backlash.

You can loosen the four outer hex screws, tighten or loosen the center set screw, and then tighten down the four outer hex screws to make the cross slide handle easier or more difficult to rotate. This is how I lock my cross slide!

One *extremely* important point here is that if you make it too tight the cross slide power feed will not work, much in the same way that a cross slide power feed would not work if the cross slide were locked. 

To make the same point again, one day I had my cross slide handle (rotation) set so tightly that I was afraid for several minutes that my cross slide power feed had ceased operating! So don’t go crazy with those 4 screws with the set screw in the middle; easy does it. If you are using these as a cross slide lock, definitely make sure that you loosen them back up before using the cross slide power feed!

Like you, I had PM install the taper attachment, and I didn’t want to mess with their install vis a vid the aforementioned “blocked cross slide lock (set screw)”.

You should experiment with those 4 outer bolts and the inner set screw to get your cross slide handle rotation to the desired stiffness. I like mine pretty tight.

I am sorry that I have not joined in on this discussion until now, but I am working crazy long hours & finishing up a bunch of spindles for the dividing head group project.


----------



## mksj

FYI, the cross slide leadscrew nut adjustment is not for adjusting the tension/resistance in the cross slide/handle, it is only to reduce the back lash in the handle/nut. It is normal to have around 0.001- 0.003" of back lash in the dial. Tightening it to the point where it is used for resistance and/or 0 back lash will prematurely wear out the nut and the leadscrew. The manual specifically states that the adjustment should be made so the cross slide moves smoothly, it should not be so tight to offer any significant resistance. This is completely different to the gibs. As you have you will most likely wear out the center portion of the leadscrew/most commonly used section and will be too tight at the extremes, and the nut will wear out much more quickly. The leadscrew nut is split in the center and the set screw drives a wedge in the center of the split to slightly tighten nut for wear. You should also recheck the backlash after you have tightened the 4 cap screws that there is at least a little backlash in the handle.


----------



## ddickey

@mksj Nice manual. Mine is not to good. I use a Kent manual when I need to reference.
@xyz I'm sure PM is in production mode right now. It takes some extra time with measuring and is not the "normal" way to do it. My scale is just a hair to the right on the screw and goes all the way to the end of the cross slide. 
Also, if you ever loosen the handwheel screws you should tighten/snug them back up with the cross slide all the way back meaning away closest to you. It will help align the screw. That set screw #102 should not be tight at all on a new lathe.


----------



## xyz

ddickey said:


> @mksj Nice manual. Mine is not to good. I use a Kent manual when I need to reference.
> @xyz I'm sure PM is in production mode right now. It takes some extra time with measuring and is not the "normal" way to do it. My scale is just a hair to the right on the screw and goes all the way to the end of the cross slide.
> Also, if you ever loosen the handwheel screws you should tighten/snug them back up with the cross slide all the way back meaning away closest to you. It will help align the screw. That set screw #102 should not be tight at all on a new lathe.


Thank you.  I am about to call PM about the too tight cross slide.  I tried everything that has been suggested by the manual and most of suggestions that have been posted.


----------



## xyz

erikmannie said:


> The 4 hex screws on top of the cross slide & the set screw (that you previously thought was a missing screw) are used to adjust the the cross slide backlash.
> 
> You can loosen the four outer hex screws, tighten or loosen the center set screw, and then tighten down the four outer hex screws to make the cross slide handle easier or more difficult to rotate. This is how I lock my cross slide!
> 
> One *extremely* important point here is that if you make it too tight the cross slide power feed will not work, much in the same way that a cross slide power feed would not work if the cross slide were locked.
> 
> To make the same point again, one day I had my cross slide handle (rotation) set so tightly that I was afraid for several minutes that my cross slide power feed had ceased operating! So don’t go crazy with those 4 screws with the set screw in the middle; easy does it. If you are using these as a cross slide lock, definitely make sure that you loosen them back up before using the cross slide power feed!
> 
> Like you, I had PM install the taper attachment, and I didn’t want to mess with their install vis a vid the aforementioned “blocked cross slide lock (set screw)”.
> 
> You should experiment with those 4 outer bolts and the inner set screw to get your cross slide handle rotation to the desired stiffness. I like mine pretty tight.
> 
> I am sorry that I have not joined in on this discussion until now, but I am working crazy long hours & finishing up a bunch of spindles for the dividing head group project.


Thanks for your reply.  I tried loosening up everything.  Still need two hands to turn the wheel.

Working hard, long hours is good.  You will enjoy retirement all the more!

By the way, thank you for your earlier posts.  It helped me though some frustrating moments a lot:  seeing others work through the same problems is encouraging me to keep calm.


----------



## xyz

mksj said:


> FYI, the cross slide leadscrew nut adjustment is not for adjusting the tension/resistance in the cross slide/handle, it is only to reduce the back lash in the handle/nut. It is normal to have around 0.001- 0.003" of back lash in the dial. Tightening it to the point where it is used for resistance and/or 0 back lash will prematurely wear out the nut and the leadscrew. The manual specifically states that the adjustment should be made so the cross slide moves smoothly, it should not be so tight to offer any significant resistance. This is completely different to the gibs. As you have you will most likely wear out the center portion of the leadscrew/most commonly used section and will be too tight at the extremes, and the nut will wear out much more quickly. The leadscrew nut is split in the center and the set screw drives a wedge in the center of the split to slightly tighten nut for wear. You should also recheck the backlash after you have tightened the 4 cap screws that there is at least a little backlash in the handle.
> 
> View attachment 376188


Thanks for you attention.  I loosened screws 102 and 103's but the wheel is still very hard to turn.  I wonder if the bearings are too heavily preloaded?


----------



## mksj

If you have a taper attachment, then it may not be aligned properly and the end bearing is too tight. I haled install one of these on the 1640 lathe, it was very heavy and a two man job. If the alignment was not spot on the it would bind. These lathes from the factory should be pretty spot on as t their specs. and tolerances, if the cross slide handle is too tight with the gibs removed then it is either the bearings or the nut. Manual on the taper attachment should be the same as the SB1263. I would speak to PM/QMT and take their direction before going further, the taper attachment is very heavy and its alignment needs to be very accurate. There were some taper dowel pins installed to set the alignment, and could be an issue with the end bearing preload.


----------



## BladesIIB

xyz said:


> Now that I have the machine in place and a replacement toe jack delivered, my task tomorrow will be rough leveling the machine.
> 
> Then, figuring out how to set the parameters for the Yamaha VFD to get power to the lathe.  I read posts on how others have done it, so, I hope to follow what others have suggested and done.  I did read the manual.  It's humongous.  Initially I want 3 phase and see the spindle turn.


Lots of feedback on your cross slide issue but you may need an expert to jump in on this comment. I have a VFD on my 1440TL and I had to fully re wire the lathe before I could get the first spindle turn. I don’t believe you can just pull 3 phase from your VFD and wire into the lathe?? Maybe that is not what you meant above?  Again maybe an expert can clarify. You need to wire directly from the VFD to the motor and then set up the correct controls to test the lathe. For me that was pulling all the high voltage wiring out and re wiring control wiring back to the VFD.


----------



## xyz

erikmannie said:


> The 4 hex screws on top of the cross slide & the set screw (that you previously thought was a missing screw) are used to adjust the the cross slide backlash.
> 
> You can loosen the four outer hex screws, tighten or loosen the center set screw, and then tighten down the four outer hex screws to make the cross slide handle easier or more difficult to rotate. This is how I lock my cross slide!
> 
> One *extremely* important point here is that if you make it too tight the cross slide power feed will not work, much in the same way that a cross slide power feed would not work if the cross slide were locked.
> 
> To make the same point again, one day I had my cross slide handle (rotation) set so tightly that I was afraid for several minutes that my cross slide power feed had ceased operating! So don’t go crazy with those 4 screws with the set screw in the middle; easy does it. If you are using these as a cross slide lock, definitely make sure that you loosen them back up before using the cross slide power feed!
> 
> 
> 
> mksj said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a taper attachment, then it may not be aligned properly and the end bearing is too tight. I haled install one of these on the 1640 lathe, it was very heavy and a two man job. If the alignment was not spot on the it would bind. These lathes from the factory should be pretty spot on as t their specs. and tolerances, if the cross slide handle is too tight with the gibs removed then it is either the bearings or the nut. Manual on the taper attachment should be the same as the SB1263. I would speak to PM/QMT and take their direction before going further, the taper attachment is very heavy and its alignment needs to be very accurate. There were some taper dowel pins installed to set the alignment, and could be an issue with the end bearing preload.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like you, I had PM install the taper attachment, and I didn’t want to mess with their install vis a vid the aforementioned “blocked cross slide lock (set screw)”.
> You should experiment with those 4 outer bolts and the inner set screw to get your cross slide handle rotation to the desired stiffness. I like mine pretty tight.
> 
> I am sorry that I have not joined in on this discussion until now, but I am working crazy long hours & finishing up a bunch of spindles for the dividing head group project.
Click to expand...

Thanks.  I read the manual.  It was a good decision to have them install it.  I am reading the manual again now, to learn the names of the parts, etc., before calling PM.  The cross slide wheel is hard to turn with the taper unit disengaged.

 I also thought something was binding or out of alignment, yesterday, and took off the cap to see what's under the hood:  





In the process I stripped one phillips head screw top and had to hammer it free with a pick:  They were really jammed in at PM.  I'll be replacing the 5mm 0.8 with star screws, so that next person will be able to open it.  There is a bearing there:






I'm keeping my fingers crossed that is not the the problem. 

Another member here, @erikmannie who received a 1640TL with a pre-installed taper unit was also having problems with a tight cross slide.  I wonder if he resolved his problem.

Thank goodness for this community.


----------



## xyz

BladesIIB said:


> Lots of feedback on your cross slide issue but you may need an expert to jump in on this comment. I have a VFD on my 1440TL and I had to fully re wire the lathe before I could get the first spindle turn. I don’t believe you can just pull 3 phase from your VFD and wire into the lathe?? Maybe that is not what you meant above?  Again maybe an expert can clarify. You need to wire directly from the VFD to the motor and then set up the correct controls to test the lathe. For me that was pulling all the high voltage wiring out and re wiring control wiring back to the VFD.


Yikes.  I saw others post how they did it.  Also, someone last week received a 1640TL and a VFD.  I am hoping that he ordered the Yamaha unit from PM.  I am hoping to be a copy-cat.

Once I get the non-cooperating cross slide (taper unit) issue resolved, VFD is the next project.


----------



## BladesIIB

xyz said:


> Yikes.  I saw others post how they did it.  Also, someone last week received a 1640TL and a VFD.  I am hoping that he ordered the Yamaha unit from PM.  I am hoping to be a copy-cat.
> 
> Once I get the non-cooperating cross slide (taper unit) issue resolved, VFD is the next project.


If you have a model to follow sounds good. I have the Hitachi VFD from PM and only know one way to connect it as learned from @mksj. If you are doing something similar then great.  Just sounded like you were going to hook it up directly and use it like a Rotary Phase Converter and I am not aware of how that would work?  But I am also not an expert. Good luck.


----------



## mksj

I am not sure how many times this is repeated, but the VFD is not a plug and play power source for a machine. The motor output is directly wired to the VFD, no contactor, no switches, etc. If you want plug and play get an RPC. BIIB outlined in his video how he installed his VFD, so why not take a look at that if you want to do a basic install that uses the contactors to switch the low voltage VFD inputs and you also need to change out the brake switch to a dual pole so one side is wired like the factory and the other side issues a free run command. I am not aware of a Yamaha VFD, there is a Yaskawa brand, but PM/QMT only sells the Hitachi WJ200 series. The model most commonly used for a 5 Hp motor would be the WJ200-075LF, which is a 3 phase input unit run in a derated mode for single phase. Yaskawa does make a native single phase input 5Hp VFDGA50UB018ABA which is a bit more complicated than the WJ200 and takes a different set of parameters.








						GA50UB018ABA - 5 HP, 17.5 Amps, Heavy Duty, 240 VAC, Single-Phase, IP20/Protected Chassis
					

Yaskawa - GA500 AC Microdrive - GA50UB001ABA - 1/16 HP, 1.2 Amps, Normal Duty, .17 HP, 0.8 Amps, 240 VAC, Single-Phase, IP20/Protected Chassis



					control-concepts.myshopify.com


----------



## xyz

mksj said:


> I am not sure how many times this is repeated, but the VFD is not a plug and play power source for a machine. The motor output is directly wired to the VFD, no contactor, no switches, etc. If you want plug and play get an RPC. BIIB outlined in his video how he installed his VFD, so why not take a look at that if you want to do a basic install that uses the contactors to switch the low voltage VFD inputs and you also need to change out the brake switch to a dual pole so one side is wired like the factory and the other side issues a free run command. I am not aware of a Yamaha VFD, there is a Yaskawa brand, but PM/QMT only sells the Hitachi WJ200 series. The model most commonly used for a 5 Hp motor would be the WJ200-075LF, which is a 3 phase input unit run in a derated mode for single phase. Yaskawa does make a native single phase input 5Hp VFDGA50UB018ABA which is a bit more complicated than the WJ200 and takes a different set of parameters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GA50UB018ABA - 5 HP, 17.5 Amps, Heavy Duty, 240 VAC, Single-Phase, IP20/Protected Chassis
> 
> 
> Yaskawa - GA500 AC Microdrive - GA50UB001ABA - 1/16 HP, 1.2 Amps, Normal Duty, .17 HP, 0.8 Amps, 240 VAC, Single-Phase, IP20/Protected Chassis
> 
> 
> 
> control-concepts.myshopify.com


I just talked to technical support at PM.  He said that you are the MAN w/r/t  VFD .  So, I'll review your postings before I enter that rabbit hole.







I don't know why I started to think the VFD from PM was a xxxxx.  It is a HITACHI.  A very my-bad.


----------



## xyz

Very good news form PM technical support about the stiff cross slide hand wheel.  They know about the problem.  They check to make sure that the cross slide does slide at installation time, before shipping.  The attachment could have settled, during shipping, causing a binding.

The suggestion is to loosen bolts 12 (four of them) and adjust the attachment upwards.  I intend to use a home made gantry to control the adjustment of the up lift. I ask him wouldn't registration pin, 13, prevent the up lift?  PM  DOES NOT pin the attachment !  (Southbend knew what they were doing, to use the pins.)






After I get this working again, a micro vertical adjustment for the attachment seems in order.  If it slipped once, it can slip again.  As I work on this, I'll be thinking of where such a thing might fit.


----------



## xyz

xyz said:


> Very good news form PM technical support about the stiff cross slide hand wheel.  They know about the problem.  They check to make sure that the cross slide does slide at installation time, before shipping.  The attachment could have settled, during shipping, causing a binding.
> 
> The suggestion is to loosen bolts 12 (four of them) and adjust the attachment upwards.  I intend to use a home made gantry to control the adjustment of the up lift. I ask him wouldn't registration pin, 13, prevent the up lift?  PM  DOES NOT pin the attachment !  (Southbend knew what they were doing, to use the pins.)
> 
> View attachment 376242
> 
> 
> After I get this working again, a micro vertical adjustment for the attachment seems in order.  If it slipped once, it can slip again.  As I work on this, I'll be thinking of where such a thing might fit.


A quick look:  It looks like the taper unit is bolted to the back side of the carriage.  Unite 14 is bolted with items 12.  PM does not use registration pins, item 12.

The bad news is that on careful observation, item 14 seems to slope down from the back of the carriage.  How can that be?  I'll have to indicate some machined horizontal surface of item 14.

On a quick look it looks like the taper unit was mounted onto a painted surface.  I'll have to check that out tomorrow, but if so, it is not surprising that during shipment, the unit would have crushed the paint and thereby settled in a slope:  the axis of the cross slide screw and the unit then would not be colinear and the bearing that is housed in item 14 would not be perpendicular to the axis of the cross slide screw.

I hope mine is the only one that is like this.  Others who have the taper unit might see if it was mounted over a painted surface.


----------



## xyz

xyz said:


> A quick look:  It looks like the taper unit is bolted to the back side of the carriage.  Unite 14 is bolted with items 12.  PM does not use registration pins, item 12.
> 
> The bad news is that on careful observation, item 14 seems to slope down from the back of the carriage.  How can that be?  I'll have to indicate some machined horizontal surface of item 14.
> 
> On a quick look it looks like the taper unit was mounted onto a painted surface.  I'll have to check that out tomorrow, but if so, it is not surprising that during shipment, the unit would have crushed the paint and thereby settled in a slope:  the axis of the cross slide screw and the unit then would not be colinear and the bearing that is housed in item 14 would not be perpendicular to the axis of the cross slide screw.
> 
> I hope mine is the only one that is like this.  Others who have the taper unit might see if it was mounted over a painted surface.


Typo: registration pin item 13.


----------



## erikmannie

xyz said:


> Thanks.  I read the manual.  It was a good decision to have them install it.  I am reading the manual again now, to learn the names of the parts, etc., before calling PM.  The cross slide wheel is hard to turn with the taper unit disengaged.
> 
> I also thought something was binding or out of alignment, yesterday, and took off the cap to see what's under the hood:
> View attachment 376227
> 
> In the process I stripped one phillips head screw top and had to hammer it free with a pick:  They were really jammed in at PM.  I'll be replacing the 5mm 0.8 with star screws, so that next person will be able to open it.  There is a bearing there:
> 
> View attachment 376234
> 
> 
> I'm keeping my fingers crossed that is not the the problem.
> 
> Another member here, @erikmannie who received a 1640TL with a pre-installed taper unit was also having problems with a tight cross slide.  I wonder if he resolved his problem.
> 
> Thank goodness for this community.



I never had a problem with a tight cross slide. PM installed the taper attachment, & the cross slide handwheel had the proper resistance.

I said that I *like* a tight cross slide. I mistakenly (!) used the cross slide backlash adjustment screws to (1) serve as a cross slide lock (because my DRO scale cover is blocking the cross slide lock screw), as well as (2) increase the resistance in my cross slide handwheel (because I was too *lazy* to tighten the gibs).

I work such long hours that I only have about 6 hours/week to work in my shop. I get 6 weeks vaca per year, & then I get a LOT of shop time. When I retire in 9 years, I will really get a lot of shop time. As such, I sometimes take unwise shortcuts & am often a bad example of somebody who uses best practices.


----------



## xyz

The stiff cross carriage wheel problem was solved.  As delivered, I had to use two hands to turn the cross slide wheel.

PM suggested that I look at the junction of the taper unit and the back of the carriage.  They are joined by four bolts, items 12 in the following diagram.







When I loosened these bolts, I could use a home made portable gantry to pull the unit up.  There was about 0.010 inch looseness, up and down.  There is horizontal play also, but I did not pay attention to that.  I tried random positions until I found a position that gave me the loosest cross slide action.  It is still tight, but at least I can turn the wheel with one hand, now.

There is a need for some mechanism, a jack, or cam, so that the taper unit can be placed at a specific place.  (PM does not use the registration pins, item 13.)  Maybe when I get the mill installed ....    Bolting a heavy taper unit onto a painted surface is not a long term solution.

When I did the above, the four bolts 103 and the set screw 102 (from another diagram that details just the cross slide) at the center of the cross slide were all loosened.  Also the gib was loosened.  Those screws and the gib are now adjusted properly.

To get to the taper unit, I removed the back splash guard.  A home made gantry was used to gently pull up on the splash guard and then I removed three bolts.  The direct access from back of the machine enabled me to see much more that had to be cleaned.

Also, I could see the damage that the deadman clamp item 50 did when the taper unit was disengaged, as suggested, by loosening bolts 49, and thereafter the carriage moved.  I intend to remove the whole of item 50 and the arm 45, when the taper unit is not in use.

Thank goodness for paint matching technology:  the scratches can be covered up with a little paint.

So, when all the manual controls were confirmed ok, I placed the lathe fully on one concrete slab in the garage. It is square with the grid of the concrete slabs, within about 5 mm.  I leveled it as best as I could, better than 1/2 of a thick on a machinist level.  I had to iterate a dozen times, because adjusting one leveling bolt ... you know the story.   I'll check the level again in the morning. The floor falls away enough that I had to put a 3 by 4 inch, 1/2 inch steel plates underneath each of the two leveling pads on the tail stock side.

Next:  I have to use the VFD to convert single phase to 3 phase.  My plan is to have the unit do just that.  All the fancy stuff can come later.  The goal is just 60 Hz, 3 phase, 240V (or whatever the actual voltage is in the house: the VFD does not pump up the voltage, and the output voltage cannot be higher than the input).

Then, I can brake-in the machine and get advice from the pros when to change the oil.


----------



## erikmannie

xyz said:


> The stiff cross carriage wheel problem was solved.  As delivered, I had to use two hands to turn the cross slide wheel.
> 
> PM suggested that I look at the junction of the taper unit and the back of the carriage.  They are joined by four bolts, items 12 in the following diagram.
> 
> View attachment 376325
> 
> 
> When I loosened these bolts, I could use a home made portable gantry to pull the unit up.  There was about 0.010 inch looseness, up and down.  There is horizontal play also, but I did not pay attention to that.  I tried random positions until I found a position that gave me the loosest cross slide action.  It is still tight, but at least I can turn the wheel with one hand, now.
> 
> There is a need for some mechanism, a jack, or cam, so that the taper unit can be placed at a specific place.  (PM does not use the registration pins, item 13.)  Maybe when I get the mill installed ....    Bolting a heavy taper unit onto a painted surface is not a long term solution.
> 
> When I did the above, the four bolts 103 and the set screw 102 (from another diagram that details just the cross slide) at the center of the cross slide were all loosened.  Also the gib was loosened.  Those screws and the gib are now adjusted properly.
> 
> To get to the taper unit, I removed the back splash guard.  A home made gantry was used to gently pull up on the splash guard and then I removed three bolts.  The direct access from back of the machine enabled me to see much more that had to be cleaned.
> 
> Also, I could see the damage that the deadman clamp item 50 did when the taper unit was disengaged, as suggested, by loosening bolts 49, and thereafter the carriage moved.  I intend to remove the whole of item 50 and the arm 45, when the taper unit is not in use.
> 
> Thank goodness for paint matching technology:  the scratches can be covered up with a little paint.
> 
> So, when all the manual controls were confirmed ok, I placed the lathe fully on one concrete slab in the garage. It is square with the grid of the concrete slabs, within about 5 mm.  I leveled it as best as I could, better than 1/2 of a thick on a machinist level.  I had to iterate a dozen times, because adjusting one leveling bolt ... you know the story.   I'll check the level again in the morning. The floor falls away enough that I had to put a 3 by 4 inch, 1/2 inch steel plates underneath each of the two leveling pads on the tail stock side.
> 
> Next:  I have to use the VFD to convert single phase to 3 phase.  My plan is to have the unit do just that.  All the fancy stuff can come later.  The goal is just 60 Hz, 3 phase, 240V (or whatever the actual voltage is in the house: the VFD does not pump up the voltage, and the output voltage cannot be higher than the input).
> 
> Then, I can brake-in the machine and get advice from the pros when to change the oil.



I wouldn’t worry about the paint at all. Once you use the machine a bunch, some paint will inevitably flake off. It doesn’t matter because you will hopefully have a film of way oil (or oil-based cutting fluid) on all of the surfaces which are vulnerable to corrosion.

It would be a frustrating existence to keep it looking new, but you can easily keep it oiled & thus safe from corrosion.

I *really* enjoy cleaning a machine tool; I find it very therapeutic.


----------



## xyz

erikmannie said:


> I wouldn’t worry about the paint at all. Once you use the machine a bunch, some paint will inevitably flake off. It doesn’t matter because you will hopefully have a film of way oil (or oil-based cutting fluid) on all of the surfaces which are vulnerable to corrosion.
> 
> It would be a frustrating existence to keep it looking new, but you can easily keep it oiled & thus safe from corrosion.
> 
> I *really* enjoy cleaning a machine tool; I find it very therapeutic.


It's the 'new car and its first scratch' syndrome.  You, know, you get a new car; when you see that some one has dinged your new car, the zing echoes through out the body.  Then after some months, the next ding isn't even noticed.

I never paid attention to scratches, chips, ding, even damage from crashes on club machines, or friends machines.  But when I saw the little dings on the tail stock on a brand new machine, I went and got a pint of matched paint.  It's not a perfect match, but I haven't noticed where the ding had been since I used the touch up paint on the spot.  Then, today, when I removed the splash guard and saw the damage that the dead man clamp did,  I thought, well I still have a pint of matching paint.  And moved on.   

Anyway, I was too busy using both hands to turn the cross slide wheel!   LOL   Boy am I glad that's solved, sort of.

On to the next rabbit hole !


----------



## xyz

In the electrical control and distribution box of the PM-1640TL there was a document describing the electrical system.  If anyone has an official electronic copy of it, I would appreciate it if you would post it.  Thank you.

In the mean time, I scanned the document and here it is.  














Observe "Sheet 2 of 1".  So, it was an oriental language speaker that drew the circuits.  In some of the oriental languages, the thought process is: "of 2 parts, this is the first".

The diagram is in unfamiliar notation to me.  It does not use symbols used in the Pm-1440GT nor the Pm-1340GT documentation of the electrical system.

If these symbols are part of some standard, please let me know, so that I can be sure of the circuit.  As it is, I will try to make sense of each symbol first, then, segment the drawing into independent parts:  that will make understanding the critical circuit, the safety part of the system, easier to understand.

Wires are numbered with plain numerals, and some wires are labeled with a letter.  As I try to explain the circuit to myself, I will use w3 for wire 3 and w11 for wire 11, and so on.  An alpha lettered line is its function, not a single piece of wire.  Hence wires labeled R are in several locations, indicating the function of that part of the circuit, not a continuous piece of wire.

K1, K2, K3, K4 are relays.  The description does not detail to which pin of the relay a wire is attached, only that it is associated with a relay.  The relay contacts are represented by what in standard electronics circuits would be a capacitor:  like two capital T facing each other, as between w6 and w10. 






Normally closed (connected) but opened (disconnected) by energizing the coil is represented by the contact symbol with a stroke across it, as in the symbol between w10 and w12.






The alternating current coil is represented by what electronics engineer would associate with a signal source:  a squiggle in a circle, as in the symbol between w12 and [w3-1].  K1 says it is the coil associated with relay 1.






Switches are represented in several ways.  There is a single pole, single throw switch SW1 between w2 and w8.  It is a simple connect or disconnect switch.







The switch between w0 and w1 is a limit switch.  When the end cover pushes up against a roller arm of the switch, the circuit closes (connects).  






The switch LS3 and LS4 between w4 and w5 are each a switch that disconnect one circuit and connects to another circuit.  In combination, they are part of an either or logic circuit.  The switches are physically placed near a cam such that only one switch is active.  They are use in the safety component of the lathe is discussed below.







There is a push to disconnect switch, SPB1,  between w1 and w2.  







There is a push to connect switch, PB1, between w2 and w6. 







There are several functions in the diagram.  Each function will be discussed, going from left to right:

1.  Three phase, 220V power, on wires R, S, and T, common 220V designation, is connected to the motor via fuses F1, two relays, K1 and K2.  Either K1 or K2 is activated at any time.  This function is assured by the physical switch positions, which allows only one of LS3 or LS4 to be active, and further relay logic.  Damage to the switches, or displacement of the switches could lead to an error in this critical function. The circuit at the far right (discussed later) ensures that only one K1 or K2 is activated at any time.  When K2 is active, S and T are interchanged resulting in the motor reversing direction.  There is another set of fuses, F2, just after the relays.  At the motor, the power from R, S, and T is delivered to U, V, W, which is common designation for wires leading out of a three phase motor.









2. Second section of the circuit from the left routes 220V power to the coolant.  Relay K3 connects power from R and S to U1 and V1.






[ I ran into a limit of 20 attachments  So, this discussion will continue in the next post. ]


----------



## xyz

xyz said:


> In the electrical control and distribution box of the PM-1640TL there was a document describing the electrical system.  If anyone has an official electronic copy of it, I would appreciate it if you would post it.  Thank you.
> 
> In the mean time, I scanned the document and here it is.
> View attachment 376536
> 
> View attachment 376537
> 
> 
> View attachment 376541
> 
> 
> Observe "Sheet 2 of 1".  So, it was an oriental language speaker that drew the circuits.  In some of the oriental languages, the thought process is: "of 2 parts, this is the first".
> 
> The diagram is in unfamiliar notation to me.  It does not use symbols used in the Pm-1440GT nor the Pm-1340GT documentation of the electrical system.
> 
> If these symbols are part of some standard, please let me know, so that I can be sure of the circuit.  As it is, I will try to make sense of each symbol first, then, segment the drawing into independent parts:  that will make understanding the critical circuit, the safety part of the system, easier to understand.
> 
> Wires are numbered with plain numerals, and some wires are labeled with a letter.  As I try to explain the circuit to myself, I will use w3 for wire 3 and w11 for wire 11, and so on.  An alpha lettered line is its function, not a single piece of wire.  Hence wires labeled R are in several locations, indicating the function of that part of the circuit, not a continuous piece of wire.
> 
> K1, K2, K3, K4 are relays.  The description does not detail to which pin of the relay a wire is attached, only that it is associated with a relay.  The relay contacts are represented by what in standard electronics circuits would be a capacitor:  like two capital T facing each other, as between w6 and w10.
> 
> View attachment 376575
> 
> 
> Normally closed (connected) but opened (disconnected) by energizing the coil is represented by the contact symbol with a stroke across it, as in the symbol between w10 and w12.
> 
> View attachment 376579
> 
> 
> The alternating current coil is represented by what electronics engineer would associate with a signal source:  a squiggle in a circle, as in the symbol between w12 and [w3-1].  K1 says it is the coil associated with relay 1.
> 
> View attachment 376580
> 
> 
> Switches are represented in several ways.  There is a single pole, single throw switch SW1 between w2 and w8.  It is a simple connect or disconnect switch.
> 
> View attachment 376581
> 
> 
> 
> The switch between w0 and w1 is a limit switch.  When the end cover pushes up against a roller arm of the switch, the circuit closes (connects).
> 
> View attachment 376582
> 
> 
> The switch LS3 and LS4 between w4 and w5 are each a switch that disconnect one circuit and connects to another circuit.  In combination, they are part of an either or logic circuit.  The switches are physically placed near a cam such that only one switch is active.  They are use in the safety component of the lathe is discussed below.
> 
> View attachment 376583
> 
> 
> 
> There is a push to disconnect switch, SPB1,  between w1 and w2.
> 
> View attachment 376585
> 
> 
> 
> There is a push to connect switch, PB1, between w2 and w6.
> 
> View attachment 376586
> 
> 
> 
> There are several functions in the diagram.  Each function will be discussed, going from left to right:
> 
> 1.  Three phase, 220V power, on wires R, S, and T, common 220V designation, is connected to the motor via fuses F1, (which is composed of three separate fuses), two relays, K1 and K2.  Either K1 or K2 (or neither) is activated at any one time.  This function is implemented by the physical switch positions, which allows only one of LS3 or LS4 to be active, and further relay logic guarantees this .  Damage to the switches, or displacement of the switches could lead to an error in this critical function, except for the additional logic. The circuit at the far right (discussed later) ensures that only one K1 or K2 (or neither) is activated at any time.  When K2 is active, S and T are interchanged resulting in the reversal of the motor direction.  There is another set of fuses, F2, just after the relays for overload fault.  At the motor, the power from R, S, and T is delivered to U, V, W, which is common designation for wires leading out of a three phase motor.
> 
> View attachment 376588
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Second section of the circuit from the left routes 220V power to the coolant.  Relay K3 connects power from R and S to U1 and V1.
> 
> View attachment 376589
> 
> 
> [ I ran into a limit of 20 attachments  So, this discussion will continue in the next post. ]


This is a continuation of posting #616.

F2 and F3 are IEC style thermal overload relays.  F2 is rated 16A to 24A and F3 is rated 0.25A to 0.4A.








3. In the middle of the drawing there is a transformer, T1, which provides 24 volts used for the relay logic, for the work lamp, and the 'power present' indicator lamp.  The 24 volt and its 0 volt reference are floating:  that is there is no direct tie-in with the power circuit.   The body of the transformer is connected to the ground.  LS1 must be closed (connected), that is, the end cover must be installed;  and the emergency push button switch, SPB1, can interrupt (disconnect) the power to the relay logic, the safety circuit, and shut down the system.






4.  In the above diagram, W2, SW1, K3 coil, and F3 make up the control for the coolant motor.  Closing (connecting) SW1 energizes relay K3, which then routes power on R and S to U1 and V1.

5.  Between w2 and w6 there is push button switch PB1, which is the JOG switch.  But on the face plate of the lathe, it says not to use the JOG, but rather hand manipulate the chuck when shifting gears.  So, it's probably best if that circuit was disabled on my machine.







6.  The right most section of the drawing is the most important portion:  It makes sure that only one or none of the relays, K1 or K2, is engaged at any one time.  Also, if the spindle on/off lever is engaged (in forward or in reverse position), and if there is an interruption of the power to the lathe, then power is NOT suddenly applied to the motor at the end of the power interruption.  The lever must be returned to its neutral position, then to the forward or reverse position before the power is applied to the motor. This prevents sudden and unexpected behavior of the lathe, especially if the power interruption was for a prolonged time.

View attachment 376550


The foot brake disconnects the 24 volt to the safety circuit.  F2, which senses overload of the motor, also can disable the circuit, removing power from relays K1 (motor reverse), K2 (motor forward), and K4 (no power interruption).

K4 relay does two things:  once it is energized, it is self sustaining:  it remains energized.  This is done via w4, K4, and w5 which routes power to K4 coil (itself).  Once K4 is energized and there is uninterrupted power, the circuit containing w6 and w10 and the circuit w7 and w11 can route power to coils for K1 or K2.  If there is interruption to power, then these circuits are inoperable.






7. A portion of the above diagram is repeated below:  It says, either K1 (motor reverse) or K2 (motor forward), but not both can be energized at the same time.  It is also possible that both relays are not energized (no power to the motor).  This is a safe behavior, even if LS3 and LS4 misbehave.






8. F1 is not as described in the parts list:  It is not a 3P50A, FSX-303, instead, there are three separate fuses as indicated in the drawing.

In the next posting, I will discuss 

1. where I intend to insert nonintrusive sensors on my machine so as to preserve the safety functions; 
2. how to sense foot brake activation, without changing anything about the peddle nor the associated switch;
3. how I plan to integrate the Hitachi WJ200-075LF VFD.

The goal is to not alter the safety circuit; continue to use the overload fuses; follow Hitachi's direction about direct connect to the motor, except for emergency disconnect; enable the VFD to take in 'forward' or 'reverse' signal, and also the foot brake activation; 

Others have integrated VFD with their lathes.  I have learned a lot from their postings.  I thank them for the postings.  I have confirmed what I can from the Hitachi manuals.  But my approach to the VFD integration will be piecemeal, a step at a time, so that I will always have a safe, operational lathe that safety functions are comprehensible to me.


----------



## erikmannie

You will end up with better functionality with a VFD vis a vid variable spindle speed (and more efficient acceleration in the spindle, I think (?)), but it was *very* easy for me to buy an American Rotary AMP-10. That RPC is whisper quiet. When I get my 3 phase mill, all I will have to do is plug it in to the same RPC (which has 3 outlets).

The functionality you get with an RPC is what you would get if you plugged the machine in to a native 220V, 3-phase outlet. In other words, the machine functions as the engineers designed it, to include the limited & discrete RPM choices.


----------



## xyz

xyz said:


> This is a continuation of posting #616.
> 
> F2 and F3 are IEC style thermal overload relays.  F2 is rated 16A to 24A and F3 is rated 0.25A to 0.4A.
> 
> View attachment 376590
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. In the middle of the drawing there is a transformer, T1, which provides 24 volts used for the relay logic, for the work lamp, and the 'power present' indicator lamp.  The 24 volt and its 0 volt reference are floating:  that is there is no direct tie-in with the power circuit.   The body of the transformer is connected to the ground.  LS1 must be closed (connected), that is, the end cover must be installed;  and the emergency push button switch, SPB1, can interrupt (disconnect) the power to the relay logic, the safety circuit, and shut down the system.
> 
> View attachment 376591
> 
> 
> 4.  In the above diagram, W2, SW1, K3 coil, and F3 make up the control for the coolant motor.  Closing (connecting) SW1 energizes relay K3, which then routes power on R and S to U1 and V1.
> 
> 5.  Between w2 and w6 there is push button switch PB1, which is the JOG switch.  But on the face plate of the lathe, it says not to use the JOG, but rather hand manipulate the chuck when shifting gears.  So, it's probably best if that circuit was disabled on my machine.
> 
> View attachment 376592
> 
> 
> 
> 6.  The right most section of the drawing is the most important portion:  It makes sure that only one or none of the relays, K1 or K2, is engaged at any one time.  Also, if the spindle on/off lever is engaged (in forward or in reverse position), and if there is an interruption of the power to the lathe, then power is NOT suddenly applied to the motor at the end of the power interruption.  The lever must be returned to its neutral position, then to the forward or reverse position before the power is applied to the motor. This prevents sudden and unexpected behavior of the lathe, especially if the power interruption was for a prolonged time.
> 
> View attachment 376550
> 
> 
> The foot brake disconnects the 24 volt to the safety circuit.  F2, which senses overload of the motor, also can disable the circuit, removing power from relays K1 (motor reverse), K2 (motor forward), and K4 (no power interruption).
> 
> K4 relay does two things:  once it is energized, it is self sustaining:  it remains energized.  This is done via w4, K4, and w5 which routes power to K4 coil (itself).  Once K4 is energized and there is uninterrupted power, the circuit containing w6 and w10 and the circuit w7 and w11 can route power to coils for K1 or K2.  If there is interruption to power, then these circuits are inoperable.
> 
> View attachment 376593
> 
> 
> 7. A portion of the above diagram is repeated below:  It says, either K1 (motor reverse) or K2 (motor forward), but not both can be energized at the same time.  It is also possible that both relays are not energized (no power to the motor).  This is a safe behavior, even if LS3 and LS4 misbehave.
> 
> View attachment 376598
> 
> 
> 8. F1 is not as described in the parts list:  It is not a 3P50A, FSX-303, instead, there are three separate fuses as indicated in the drawing.
> 
> In the next posting, I will discuss
> 
> 1. where I intend to insert nonintrusive sensors on my machine so as to preserve the safety functions;
> 2. how to sense foot brake activation, without changing anything about the peddle nor the associated switch;
> 3. how I plan to integrate the Hitachi WJ200-075LF VFD.
> 
> The goal is to not alter the safety circuit; continue to use the overload fuses; follow Hitachi's direction about direct connect to the motor, except for emergency disconnect; enable the VFD to take in 'forward' or 'reverse' signal, and also the foot brake activation;
> 
> Others have integrated VFD with their lathes.  I have learned a lot from their postings.  I thank them for the postings.  I have confirmed what I can from the Hitachi manuals.  But my approach to the VFD integration will be piecemeal, a step at a time, so that I will always have a safe, operational lathe that safety functions are comprehensible to me.


This is a continuation of post #616 and #617.

F1 in the chassis diagram is misleading:  there are actually three separate fuses at the F1 location.  They are each Keyon 14x51 mm, 40A, 600V fuses.


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## xyz

erikmannie said:


> You will end up with better functionality with a VFD vis a vid variable spindle speed (and more efficient acceleration in the spindle, I think (?)), but it was *very* easy for me to buy an American Rotary AMP-10. That RPC is whisper quiet. When I get my 3 phase mill, all I will have to do is plug it in to the same RPC (which has 3 outlets).
> 
> The functionality you get with an RPC is what you would get if you plugged the machine in to a native 220V, 3-phase outlet. In other words, the machine functions as the engineers designed it, to include the limited & discrete RPM choices.


I agree.  Especially with respect to safety circuits.  I have a phase converter, from single to 3 phase.  It's giant, and did not make it in a temporary move across town.  

I am going to do the minimal, safe addition of the VFD to my lathe.  That's why I had to understand the circuits as they are in the machine at this time.


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## BladesIIB

I installed a VFD on my 1440TL without near the level of understanding you have of your wiring.  I am sure you will end up with a great install when you are complete. As I skimmed though your notes above I am not sure I follow why your jog should be disconnected?  The not on the faceplate saying jog should not be used for gear changes is accurate, when changing gears you want to move the Chuck by hand to allow for smooth gear alignment.  The jog function is great when you are fully engaged in a gear and need to turn your part for alignment or measurement. When your lathe is in a very low gear you often can’t turn the Chuck by hand and will need the jog.  With my VFD install I actually added reverse jog to the standard forward jog. Can be very handy when you need to move a part.


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## xyz

BladesIIB said:


> I installed a VFD on my 1440TL without near the level of understanding you have of your wiring.  I am sure you will end up with a great install when you are complete. As I skimmed though your notes above I am not sure I follow why your jog should be disconnected?  The not on the faceplate saying jog should not be used for gear changes is accurate, when changing gears you want to move the Chuck by hand to allow for smooth gear alignment.  The jog function is great when you are fully engaged in a gear and need to turn your part for alignment or measurement. When your lathe is in a very low gear you often can’t turn the Chuck by hand and will need the jog.  With my VFD install I actually added reverse jog to the standard forward jog. Can be very handy when you need to move a part.


Thanks for that input.  

I needed to understand the safety circuit thoroughly so as to keep ALL the functions provided by the factory circuit.

I think there is a jog capability from the VFD: power at alternate very low frequency for a short time.  I am at the point where I have modified the circuit drawing to remove certain wires and inject the VFD power,  and to be able to extract the required signals to the VFD for forward, reverse, stop.  (What the VFD does with the stop signal depends on what physical change was done on the lathe.  I'll post my modifications for critical input, if anyone is so inclined.

As I review exactly what control signals are required for the VFD, (I am pretty familiar with the Hitachi manuals now, having studied it several times), I'll keep in mind how to provide the jog functionality, but only when the gears are fully meshed.  I have been thinking about how to tell when the gears are in complete mesh for quite a while and have some thoughts on how to accomplish that.

Really, in a perfect world, the VFD ought to know that before it applies power to the motor.

Your input is appreciated.


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## mksj

It is one thing to understand how it is wired and how it works, but I guess it all depends on the purpose of the exercise. If you do the basic VFD install, you pretty much leave everything intact except for the high voltage wiring to the forward/reverse contactors and eliminate the overload relay. You then use 1 pole of each contactor to operate the respective VFD input for forward/reverse. Jog with the default wiring will just trigger the respective contactor just as it did before. Alternative is to directly wire the jog to a input on the VFD programmed to Jog. The WJ200 also has a different approach to how the jog is implements, the jog input sets the speed and then you need to simultaneously give a for/rev direction input.

The foot brake switch should be replaced with a dual pole, the instructions and programming would be very similar to the 1440GT basic VFD install guidance, with the motor parameters adjusted accordingly. BIIB outlined most of this in his video, just one of the ways to do it. I would also be a bit cautious on the schematic diagrams provided by the manufactures, they sometimes make changes and do not update the schematic, and as you found the symbols can vary quite a bit. There are different designs for complete replacement systems if that is your approach, but it can take quite a bit longer to do and make sure everything is working the way you want it to be. My first VFD control system took 3 months to design and work out the bugs and programming. I would suggest either go for a simple approach or a complete replacement system as opposed to something cobbled together. You might want to start your own build thread for others to follow.


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## xr650rRider

xyz said:


> As I review exactly what control signals are required for the VFD, (I am pretty familiar with the Hitachi manuals now, having studied it several times), I'll keep in mind how to provide the jog functionality, but only when the gears are fully meshed.  I have been thinking about how to tell when the gears are in complete mesh for quite a while and have some thoughts on how to accomplish that.
> 
> Really, in a perfect world, the VFD ought to know that before it applies power to the motor.


Jog really doesn't have anything to do with gear mesh.  You can put gearbox in neutral and still activate jog and the motor will run at jog speed but not the spindle.  Using VFD and programming and correctly wiring forward/reverse jog same thing occurs and motor will run at 6HZ if that's what you have it programmed to do.  Again with lathe stopped, you can change gearbox,  you may have to roll the spindle to get gears to engage, same can happen with leadscrew or feed change.  Once gearbox is engaged, you can then use jog, either direction.  I even use it for tapping.


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## erikmannie

I made the last payment on the “lathe + tooling” debts yesterday. It took me 20 months to pay those off!


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## AlanB

Just in time!


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## aliva

Now you can afford more tools


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## erikmannie

aliva said:


> Now you can afford more tools


Other than necessities, the only thing that I spend money on is tools & materials.


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## Larry42

erikmannie said:


> Other than necessities, the only thing that I spend money on is tools & materials.


I thought tools were a necessity!


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## 7milesup

aliva said:


> Now you can afford more tools


Cripes, don't tell him that!


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## Janderso

Congratulations Erik!

I get the Travers flyer every month. It’s sad to admit I pretty much have one of everything in those catalogs.
I even use some of it 
A neighbor came by this morning. He said, nice equipment, I knew you had a lathe in here but man, look at this place.
I said the real money is in those tool boxes and on the shelves.
This is a wonderful hobby, I walk into Disneyland every time I enter my garage shop. I am very fortunate to have no debt.
If I need a new lathe, I’ll ask my wife if I can buy one on an easy payment plan. Sounds so simple.
Wouldn’t it be fun to go to the Grizzly showroom in Washington and buy a New $30,000 South Bend lathe!!
I’d have a ball! As long as it had a D1-6


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## Janderso

AlanB said:


> Just in time!


For what?
Am I missing a sale?


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## StevSmar

erikmannie said:


> Other than necessities, the only thing that I spend money on is tools & materials.


Or as I say to my wife “Happy spouse, happy house”…


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## pontiac428

StevSmar said:


> Or as I say to my wife “Happy spouse, happy house”…


And as I say, "Clean shop means the work has stopped..."


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