# Shop temps and machine tools....



## Tipton1965

The shops that I worked in were always heated in the winter.  Now with the plan to get my own milling machine and lathe for my home shop it begs the question. What are the negatives of cooler shop temps in the winter as far as machine tools?  My shop is completely insulated and sheet rocked so it never gets down below freezing.  I do have a really nice propane heater but typically only run it if I'm going to be in the shop for awhile.  Does cooler shop temps have any damaging effects on machine tools?  I guess I'm concerned about rust on the ways, etc.  

Thanks!


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## FOMOGO

Living in a relatively dry climate I don't have this issue, but I would recommend running a dehumidifier. I think this would save you a lot of grief, with the added benefit of a source of distilled water for batteries, radiators, etc. Mike


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## DavidR8

Unless your propane heater vents outside running it will introduce a fair amount of moisture into the air. 
I use a combination of a oil filled radiator that I keep plugged in all the time and set to 55 degrees F. It keeps the chill off quite well. 
When I’m in the shop I have two overhead electric radiant heaters. One is situated over the mill and lathe, the other over my tablesaw.


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## sdelivery

Yes, colder temps have an affect.
BUT I live and work in Ohio and many of the machine shops are cold. 
Start the peice of equipment your going to use and let it run up to temp before starting work.
Humidity is a problem that is easily solved by running 1 or two box fans to constantly circulate the air


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## G-ManBart

My shop is heated and cooled all year, but the build was over time and for a while I had one section partitioned off from the rest of the building and insulated, but no heat or AC.  I went with 2" foam board over fiberglass batts and metal liner panel for the walls.  The ceiling is metal liner panels with fiberglass batts over that, then about 20" of blown cellulose.  I think it's reasonably well insulated.

The problem I ran into was when there were big temperature swings...mostly in the Fall and Spring.  I had a collection of restored bench vises and a lot of tools in there and the first time I went in the day or so after a big temperature swing all the bare metal was starting to rust....even stuff that had a coat of boiled linseed oil on it.  It didn't even have to be very humid for this to happen...it would heat up, condensation would form on the metal and a day later everything was flash rusting.

I first added a mini-split with a heat pump and then added a radiant heat system (planned from the start for this so the tubing and manifold was already in place).  The mini-split works down into the mid-teens, and then I turn on the floor heat.  There are mini-splits with hyper heat functions that go down into the single-digits.  Now nothing gets rusty and I'm far more comfortable.  I went with a Mitsubishi Mr. Slim mini-split and I actually can't hear whether it's working or not...I have to go stand below it and wait for the vanes to point down so I can feel if it's moving air.

I only cool the shop to the high 70s in the summer and heat it to the high 50s in the winter and it runs around $30 a month in electricity.  If I do a lot of welding or running my machinery it will go up a bit, but still nothing crazy.  The bill goes up a bit when I run the floor heat, but that's only usually January and February.  Not having all my stuff rusting, and being comfortable is more than worth it to me.


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## Tipton1965

Thanks for the replies guys!  Yes my propane heater vents outside.  My bro in law has an HVAC company.  He had a customer that bought a new house and didn't want the house heated with propane.  He changed to a regular heat pump for them and they just gave him the propane heater.  So he installed it in my shop for the cost of labor only.  So it's a pretty good setup. 

And yes.....flash rust is the main thing I'm worried about.  As far as running box fans to control humidity....I do have three ceiling fans that push alot of air.  But I usually just run them when I run the propane heater.


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## Superburban

my shop is not heated. In the winter, the knee of my Van Norman 22, does not like to turn, Maybe I could run it and warm up the il enough, but I do not want to risk anything. Since the shop is cold, I do limited work any way. I can still use the spindle, and crank the rest by hand for small projects if needed. Since most of my tools have gearboxes, I try to limit everything I do, just in case the oil does not get where it is needed when cold. Ok, yea, I also hate the cold.


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## Shootymacshootface

My garage gets below freezing when it gets very cold out, like it is now in the NE. The only time I worry about rust is if it warms up quickly, and everything sweats. I don't keep my machines meticulously clean, so there is always some oil on the non painted surfaces, and I haven't really had a problem. Keeping tooling rust free has actually been more of a problem. I do like to run my 115,000 btu space heater for a bit before I get going down there. I am unlikely to go in the shop and just start machining things right away, so stuff does get to warm up a little anyways.


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## Ken226

DavidR8 said:


> Unless your propane heater vents outside running it will introduce a fair amount of moisture into the air.
> I use a combination of a oil filled radiator that I keep plugged in all the time and set to 55 degrees F. It keeps the chill off quite well.
> When I’m in the shop I have two overhead electric radiant heaters. One is situated over the mill and lathe, the other over my tablesaw.



This is the same thing I do, with the addition of a Home Depot dehumidifier. 

I live a half hour from the Puget Sound in the Pacific Northwest.   5 years so far and not a spec of rust anywhere.


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## DavidR8

Ken226 said:


> This is the same thing I do, with the addition of a Home Depot dehumidifier.
> 
> I live a half hour from the Puget Sound in the Pacific Northwest.   5 years do far and not a spec of rust anywhere.


I'm in Victoria so just a bit north of you. Pretty much the same conditions.


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## Tipton1965

DavidR8 said:


> Unless your propane heater vents outside running it will introduce a fair amount of moisture into the air.
> I use a combination of a oil filled radiator that I keep plugged in all the time and set to 55 degrees F. It keeps the chill off quite well.
> When I’m in the shop I have two overhead electric radiant heaters. One is situated over the mill and lathe, the other over my tablesaw.


What kind of oil filled radiator do you use? I got thinking about the floor plan in my shop.  My shop is 36'x48' but I have one 12'x36' bay walled off from the rest of the main shop.  The larger main part has three overhead doors, and the smaller walled off section just has one exterior entry door and another entry door to walk into the main shop area.  I think this smaller area would be perfect for my machines.  I wouldn't have to worry if I had one of the overhead doors open in the larger main area, and heating the smaller section would be way easier. Matter of fact, in the smaller section I have a small 220 volt heater on the wall already.  Both sections are well insulated and sheetrocked.


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## DavidR8

Tipton1965 said:


> What kind of oil filled radiator do you use? I got thinking about the floor plan in my shop.  My shop is 36'x48' but I have one 12'x36' bay walled off from the rest of the main shop.  The larger main part has three overhead doors, and the smaller walled off section just has one exterior entry door and another entry door to walk into the main shop area.  I think this smaller area would be perfect for my machines.  I wouldn't have to worry if I had one of the overhead doors open in the larger main area, and heating the smaller section would be way easier. Matter of fact, in the smaller section I have a small 220 volt heater on the wall already.  Both sections are well insulated and sheetrocked.


I have something pretty similar to this:








						Ecohouzng 1500W Electric Oil Filled Heater with Remote ECH3015 - The Home Depot
					

Ecohouzng's Oil Filled Heater is ideal for small to medium rooms. This convenient, economical space heater has 3 adjustable heat settings, safety protection and an adjustable thermostat. This heater has



					www.homedepot.com


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## kvt

I keep a fan running that circulates the air,  this and keeping things coated in oil, has helped to keep flash rust down.   No AC and a lot of humidity at times.  
Have thought about putting in a dehumidifier.


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## matthewsx

If you use the shop every day then rust can't sneak up on you 

John


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## DavidR8

^^^ is the best advice!


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## Tipton1965

DavidR8 said:


> I have something pretty similar to this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ecohouzng 1500W Electric Oil Filled Heater with Remote ECH3015 - The Home Depot
> 
> 
> Ecohouzng's Oil Filled Heater is ideal for small to medium rooms. This convenient, economical space heater has 3 adjustable heat settings, safety protection and an adjustable thermostat. This heater has
> 
> 
> 
> www.homedepot.com





matthewsx said:


> If you use the shop every day then rust can't sneak up on you
> 
> John


I do use my shop most days but it's usually in/out and off to work.  I work in construction so it's go in, load truck, drive out.  This is why I think keeping machines in the smaller partitioned off room would be best.  No water from vehicles, no air from outside coming in when I open an overhead door.


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## matthewsx

A small heater and a small fan should be fine for your situation. Having a dedicated area for the shop will be great, I had to downsize from 2 - 2400 square ft buildings to a small one car garage so I'm definitely jealous of the space you've got....

John


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## cathead

In the winter, the residual heat from the water heater and some piping keeps the shop at 50
degrees or so since it is fairly well insulated.  I have about 6 or 7 tons of machinery in the
shop and to warm up all that iron takes a while.  If the shop starts out at 50 degrees, it takes
about 4 hours of constant running of the blower over the hot water radiator to get to 70 degrees.
The cold machines just suck up the heat or so it seems.


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## Technical Ted

My shop here in western NY is in my basement and never gets below the mid to low 50's. I have a dehumidifier and a humidity meter and never need to run the dehumidifier in the winter, because the humidity is low this time of year. When it's warm out is when I have the problem and the dehumidifier runs pretty much non stop! Even up stairs in my house all the wood work shrinks up this time of the year because of the low humidity and I heat with total electric. But, in the summer, everything wood swells up big time!

I have a band saw blade welder and have a lot of Amish neighbors. I always warn them that if they run their band saws in very cold shops the blades are more likely to break. Metal becomes more brittle with lower temperatures. 

If your shop is in the 50's I wouldn't be concerned if it were me. If you're down in the 30's then oil lubrication might be getting thick and there may be a little more concern, but I don't really think rust would be that big of a concern with low humidity.

Ted


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## Tipton1965

I was out in my shop today and took a look at my free standing drill press table and column.  This drill press has been out there for 25 years and it looks darn good still.


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## Janderso

I was drueling over a friend’s Bridgeport a couple years ago.
1 hp. Belt set up. Probably late sixties. 
He stored it in a barn. I had my CCW class near his shop.
That Bridgeport is going to take a lot of TLC to clean the debris and rust off the old girl.
This is Northern Ca. I can’t imagine how you guys in the Midwest and Northeast deal with this.
I am blessed to have a climate controlled shop.
It’s amazing how fast a machine tool can go to sh t in the wrong environment.


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## Flyinfool

The bottom line is the surfaces of your machines and tooling must stay above the dew point of the shop air. as soon as they drop below condensation WILL form and start to rust.
I am fortunate that my shop is in the basement and is the same air as the rest of the house. The basement is only 20 x 30 feet and I run a 100 pint dehumidifier year round set for 45% humidity. In 40 years even the contents of the stock rack has not tried to rust. The dehumidifier seldome runs in the winter but I leave it plugged in just in case a warm spell spikes the humidity.


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## pontiac428

I'm on my third dehumidifier here, they seem to crap out every other year.  I keep one running in my basement all the time.  They do a good job keeping the air dry.  I don't run one in my shop, and I have no heating/cooling beyond portable plug-in stuff like space heaters and fans.  I'm surrounded by the Puget Sound on three sides, too, but the layer of insulation I put up attenuates the temperature change as the sun goes down an up so that I never see condensation.  Oil is more than enough to keep things looking new if you tend to it regularly.


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## Shootymacshootface

I hear that people that live near humit salt water climates really struggle with their machines and rust. I live 50 miles from the ocean, which is more than enough.


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## hman

Flyinfool said:


> The bottom line is the surfaces of your machines and tooling must stay above the dew point of the shop air. as soon as they drop below condensation WILL form and start to rust.


Back when I lived in Oregon, my shop was a detached garage.  No big deal to heat it on a cold wintry day - had a good wood stove.  But then there was the occasional warm and humid spring day that came after a cold spell.  EVERY surface in the whole garage condensed a bunch of water out of the air - including every machine tool!  All I can say is thank goodness for Boeshield T-9!

My shop here in Arizona was originally equipped with two large "swamp coolers."  Got rid of them and had a heat pump installed as soon as I could afford it.  That's also my source of warmth on the few cold days we have here.


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## chip maker

I run two dehumidifiers in my basement shop one on both ends in the spring to control the hi humidity but found that they are a bit expensive to run. They do take out the moisture thou. Did have a problem with my table saw once left a small piece of treated wood on the top and when I removed it had to clean up some starting rust Dam it.


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## Tipton1965

pontiac428 said:


> I'm surrounded by the Puget Sound on three sides, too, but the layer of insulation I put up attenuates the temperature change as the sun goes down an up so that I never see condensation.


This is pretty much the way my shop is.  I have it insulated really good.  It is always warmer inside than outside in the winter, and cooler inside than outside in the summer.


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## DiscoDan

I manage the machine shop museum at Tuckahoe Steam & Gas Association in Easton Maryland. Our machine shop is an insulated steel building with a concrete floor. It is not heated during the winter other than electric hesters that are used when we are there working. We do have a dehumidifier that does run all of the time but that is it other than an occasional oiling of the non painted surfaces and we get no rust all year round.


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## BGHansen

I'm in mid-Michigan and used to manage my projects around the weather. Aka, I didn't use my shop much in the winter. Mine is 32' x 40' with a 10' ceiling. I had a 30,000 btu ventless propane heater that would raise the temp about 15F. I never had a problem with rust in the winter. But humid spring days were another story. As others have mentioned, once you hit the dew point there will be condensation. I did a pretty good job fighting it off by diligently spraying cast iron stuff with LPS1 lube. Also have three ceiling fans running 365/24/7 and don't have a rust problem.

This year I've been enjoying a 125,000 btu overhead propane heater. I leave the shop at 40F and kick it up if I'm working for more than an hour. It'll heat the shop to 55F in about 15 minutes. This spring I'll bump the temp up to fight off the dew point.

I fought putting in adequate supplemental heat for years to save the money. The heater and other set up cost about $900. I just checked my propane tank yesterday. It's at 67%, was filled to 80% in October. I doubt I'll use a full tank in a year at this rate. Total tank fill is about $400.

I know it's easy to spend someone else's money, but I'd look long and hard at putting in the heat and just consider it a cost of doing business. I really enjoy working in a sweatshirt at 50-55F instead of full Carhartts at 25F.

Bruce


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## erikmannie

BGHansen said:


> I'm in mid-Michigan and used to manage my projects around the weather. Aka, I didn't use my shop much in the Winter...



I often wonder what other hobbyists do with their free time when they can’t do shop work.


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## Dabbler

I live in a much colder climate that @DavidR8 - I try to keep the shope at 5 degrees C , or about 40 Fahrenheit.  Anything less, and heating/cooling leads to condensation on the machines.  It is heated with a vented ceiling furnace,


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## BGHansen

erikmannie said:


> I often wonder what other hobbyists do with their free time when they can’t do shop work.


Fortunately have plenty of things to do in the house too.  I'm 61 and plan on retiring in a year.  Looking forward to "7 day weekends" and a year-round shop.

Bruce


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## Lo-Fi

I run a humidistat in my shop. Above 75% seems to be where the sweating is worst, so that's where I set the switch point to. Seems to work pretty well without costing me a fortune.


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## Tozguy

It probably depends on the local climate but here we dehumidify in the summer and humidify in the winter. Heating with fossil fuel dries the air inside to a very uncomfortable level in the depth of winter so we have to add humidity.
If one is using electric heaters with no air turnover then yes I can see that humidity would build up inside in winter. Humidity control is as important as temperature control but a certain amount of air turnover to prevent stale air is also a necessity.
My shop is in the basement of the house so I can use it 24/7/52 in my shirt sleeves.


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## mikey

Us Hawaii guys do feel for you frozen folks.  

It's 74 degrees here, with lovely cooling trade winds and bright sunshine. This is our winter weather so we learn to struggle with it.


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## hman

Aw, shucks, @mikey ... go ahead and rub salt in their wounds   Nevertheless, you are indeed climatically fortunate.  So enjoy!


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## Weldingrod1

I'm looking at adding a condensation detector to boost my heating when I get those nasty "sweating machine tools" days. Sick feeling in your stomache seeing water condensing on your babies!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Papa Charlie

We live in Everett, WA, my tools are in storage in Lake Stevens, WA. Add to this we live on the water.
The best option is, and this will depend on the size of your shop, put a oil radiator heater in the shop, may two depending on size. Then add one or two box fans.
The constant air movement will dry the air faster and better than any  heat will ever do it. In fact, too much heat will only create a wider differential between the air and your equipment condensing the water from the air.
I spray my lathe and other tools down with WD40 on a regular basis. The floor in our storage unit is radiant and is only high enough to keep the worst conditions from forming.
I have never tried it, but I wonder how well radiant heat would work. It would keep the machines warmer than the dew point and should prevent condensing process.


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## BGHansen

erikmannie said:


> I often wonder what other hobbyists do with their free time when they can’t do shop work.


Personally, I find myself making frivolous purchases on eBay.      Want to see photos?  Go to the "What did you buy today?" thread and search under my name!

Bruce


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## Tim9

I live in New Orleans and humidity is just the norm. Hell, it’s the tropics here as far as I’m concerned. Running a fan does the trick. On those days where even the cars and carport floor is soaked with dew... I run both wall fans which oscillate.
  It really does keep the metal from sweating. As far as my  nice precision gauge blocks, 1-2-3’s and measurement tooling... I keep those in cabinet with some camphor. I put a cube of camphor inside a big medicine bottle. Just drill about 5 1/8th holes in the top.


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