# Needing to tool up, looking at comparisons.



## gasmith (Jul 15, 2017)

Hi guys, as the title says, Im in the first stages of tooling up for a future business endeavor (starting a new full service gunsmith shop doing professional fabrication).  Im planning on buying more machine than I currently need and buying machines that will last as long as I want them to.  This being said, Im looking at buying American made if possible (mostly just steering clear of Chinese).  I was wondering if you guys had any input on what kind of lathe you prefer when comparing Standard Modern, South Bend, and Acer lathes?  Looking at machines that are around 40" between centers or so.   Also, is there anyone manufacturing milling machines that compare with the quality of a good Bridgeport?  I realize a used Bridgeport is a good option but Im looking at other options as well.  Thanks for your input.


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## killswitch505 (Jul 16, 2017)

Kinda seems like you already know what you're looking for. I did the same you back in January. I'm pretty sure the new south bend are made by grizzly and not in America I maybe wrong. I did some horse trading for a 13x40 grizzly a while back couldn't be happier. I'd love to have a Logan or something but it wasn't in the cards so meh.... are you gonna be turning your barrels on centers? You gonna do everything in a 4 jaw and outboard spider? I've a kinda cheap vertical mill and I'm currently keeping my eyes peeled for a Bridgeport.


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## David S (Jul 16, 2017)

Welcome to the forum.  We have a sub forum "Gun smithing and Fire arms".

You might try posting your questions there for better coverage.

David


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

So nobody knows how these brands stack up against each other?


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

killswitch505 said:


> Kinda seems like you already know what you're looking for. I did the same you back in January. I'm pretty sure the new south bend are made by grizzly and not in America I maybe wrong. I did some horse trading for a 13x40 grizzly a while back couldn't be happier. I'd love to have a Logan or something but it wasn't in the cards so meh.... are you gonna be turning your barrels on centers? You gonna do everything in a 4 jaw and outboard spider? I've a kinda cheap vertical mill and I'm currently keeping my eyes peeled for a Bridgeport.



After a little reading over on Practical Machinist, I discovered that newer South Bends are a hodgepoge of a bunch of things (but decent and made in Taiwan, like Acer).  However, Im still looking for insight in how they stack up against others like Acer (like I learned on) or Standard Modern.  Not even sure what Logan is.  Im just looking for something that will last a long time and hold up to a lot of use.  The last thing I need is a lathe that "kinda" works when Im doing work for customers.


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## Eddyde (Jul 16, 2017)

Basically, there are no new North American lathes except the Standard Modern. Though Taiwanese and even some Chinese made lathes are of reasonably high quality. Check out http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1440gt/
Might be what your looking for...


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

Eddyde said:


> Basically, there are no new North American lathes except the Standard Modern. Though Taiwanese and even some Chinese made lathes are of reasonably high quality. Check out http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1440gt/
> Might be what your looking for...


That actually looks like a decent machine.  Im gonna do some looking on that.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 16, 2017)

The only way someone may tell you how different machines perform is by having used them.
I currently use 4 different brands of lathes, a Romi/Bridgeport 15 X 40 of late 1990's vintage, these are very robust machines that are well made. A hybrid manual/CNC lathe that may be operated as a manual machine or under CNC control, they are very easy to use either way so they make an excellent tool for one off work and also light production. There are always a few used ones for sale https://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Bridgeport+EZ+Path+CNC+Lathe

A Tos Trens 24 X 100 manual engine lathe, I believe that they make a 15 X 40 machine, these are well made  tools from Slovokia.

An old Warner & Swasey #5 turret lathe, W & S has a very well regarded reputation but haven't made machines in 40 years.

Also an old Hardinge 5C spindle turret lathe, Hardinge needs no explanation as far as quality and performance are concerned.

As for mills Bridgeport knee mills are excellent light duty machines, Trak has a nice line of hybrid bed mills, CNC control with handles, we just got a new Trak up and running and it appears to be a very nicely made machine, quiet and powerful.


Bridgeport also made a bunch of knee mills which are hybrid, CNC functionality along with handles for manual operations called an EZ Trak

Cost will be the major factor in your choices.


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## Eddyde (Jul 16, 2017)

gasmith said:


> That actually looks like a decent machine.  Im gonna do some looking on that.


Yeah I've been shopping for a "new" lathe for a couple of years (I'm in no rush) I narrowed it down to the PM 1440 GT if I get a new new lathe or a excellent condition used Clausing Colchester, Monarch or Hardinge.


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

Eddyde said:


> Yeah I've been shopping for a "new" lathe for a couple of years (I'm in no rush) I narrowed it down to the PM 1440 GT if I get a new new lathe or a excellent condition used Clausing Colchester, Monarch or Hardinge.


It seems Taiwan is the way to go now.  This seems to have the whole package.


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## killswitch505 (Jul 16, 2017)

Yeah that PM1440 is a bad ***** if I had the cash that's prolly the direction I'd go make sure you add a dro


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

killswitch505 said:


> Yeah that PM1440 is a bad ***** if I had the cash that's prolly the direction I'd go make sure you add a dro


After looking here, their website, and on Practical Machinist, Im heavily leaning towards it.  This will be for a shop that is attached to a range and is ooking to become one of the premier spots in the Southeast, possibly the country.  Its not my cash, its the investor's.  Buying a new machine will be easier.  The reason i asked the question is because I had written new machines off as of poor quality.  I didnt realize I learned on a Taiwanese machine and that Taiwan was making good stuff.  If I get one, it will have DRO and the whole 9 yards.


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## killswitch505 (Jul 16, 2017)

Sweet!!!!! I've seen guys talk trash on the grizzly's I've had no issues with mine. I chamber using a range rods when it's zero it's zero I also use a floating reamer holder with piloted chamber reamer. I've noticed my chambers are always tighter than my buddies using the same reamers.


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 16, 2017)

I don't own a PM or a Grizzly, I bought a 14x40 Jet, that came from China, its been great, so much so, after seeing and using mine, 3 of my friends bought the exact same lathe, all of them are thrilled with the performance.


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## killswitch505 (Jul 16, 2017)

Buffalo20 said:


> I don't own a PM or a Grizzly, I bought a 14x40 Jet, that came from China, its been great, so much so, after seeing and using mine, 3 of my friends bought the exact same lathe, all of them are thrilled with the performance.


I've heard great things about jet I'm actually looking at their Bridgeport clone


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## Buffalo20 (Jul 16, 2017)

I've had a Jet JVM 836 milling machine for over 10 years, its been bullet proof, still as tight and smooth it was when I got it. Its the small 3/4 scale Bridgeport clone, it has its limits, but it does evrything I've asked it to do. I used it to remove a couple of broken bolts out of a SBC block. As with all equipment, there are times I wish it was bigger, but other times, it perfect for the small shop. I've added X, Y, and Z power feeds and a 4" riser block (a no longer available Grizzly part).


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## killswitch505 (Jul 16, 2017)

Buffalo20 that great to hear most my work will be hobby level gunsmithing but you know how that goes lol


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

Well, mine is gonna be more than hobby level.  This is gonna allow me to make a better living so I need it to be good.


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## brav65 (Jul 16, 2017)

Call Matt at QMT and pick his brain.  He will steer you in the right direction even if it isn't buying one of his machines.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 16, 2017)

gasmith said:


> Well, mine is gonna be more than hobby level.  This is gonna allow me to make a better living so I need it to be good.


If you have  no shortage of money why are you asking questions on a hobby forum?
If indeed you want the best look at a Mazak Integrex, it will do all of the gub work that you need and then some.
By the way gub is a joke from the Woody Allen movie Take the Money and Run.
A Mazak Integrex may be seen here , it will make the guns for you.


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## killswitch505 (Jul 16, 2017)

gasmith said:


> Well, mine is gonna be more than hobby level.  This is gonna allow me to make a better living so I need it to be good.



Not to be one to rain on your parade but don't expect a whole lot of extra income I've met a ton of gunsmiths a can honestly say none have been rich. Now with a benefactor it may be different. If he's an investor idk what kinda return he'll expect 10%? But if money is truly no object buy a CNC EDM and start cranking out actions


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## killswitch505 (Jul 16, 2017)

Shoot also make sure you add the power flush system for chambering!!!! What kinda set up are you running now?


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

killswitch505 said:


> Not to be one to rain on your parade but don't expect a whole lot of extra income I've met a ton of gunsmiths a can honestly say none have been rich. Now with a benefactor it may be different. If he's an investor idk what kinda return he'll expect 10%? But if money is truly no object buy a CNC EDM and start cranking out actions


Im well aware of the trials and tribulations of gunsmithing.  This will give me a lot more capability and I have other irons in the fire.  This is basically just the next step in where Im going.


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

killswitch505 said:


> Shoot also make sure you add the power flush system for chambering!!!! What kinda set up are you running now?


Not running anything at the moment.  Working at a range as a gunsmith with basically everything but machine tools or refinishing capability.  It sucks because I have to farm that work out.


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> If you have  no shortage of money why are you asking questions on a hobby forum?
> If indeed you want the best look at a Mazak Integrex, it will do all of the gub work that you need and then some.
> By the way gub is a joke from the Woody Allen movie Take the Money and Run.
> A Mazak Integrex may be seen here , it will make the guns for you.


Well, Im not gonna get something like that, the point of revealing my situation was coming from more of a place of "I dont have to limit myself to the absolute cheapest Chinese crap" than "I have inexhaustible cash at the ready".  Id love one of those machines you just posted, in the future, I hope to actually have the need for a few.  Laugh if you want, Im here to improve my livelihood.


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## gasmith (Jul 16, 2017)

brav65 said:


> Call Matt at QMT and pick his brain.  He will steer you in the right direction even if it isn't buying one of his machines.


Thanks for the heads up, man.


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## killswitch505 (Jul 17, 2017)

gasmith said:


> Not running anything at the moment.  Working at a range as a gunsmith with basically everything but machine tools or refinishing capability.  It sucks because I have to farm that work out.


So I kinda thought you had some machining background..... I had basically none before January. I've read your post on PM there is definitely some knowledge in that group but them boys will kinda eat you alive you ask a question you'll get 50 $h!tty replys to 1 helpful. I noticed that each of them basically tore apart your lathe choices and not offered any real help the one guy offered to sell you that lathe that is in need of some TLC it's a bad ass lathe but it will be a while before you start turning on it. I think from what I've read the 1440 is a great choice with it having 2" spindle bore is nice as far a gunsmithing 1.5" will do almost anything you'll ask with  exception of some 50 cal applications. Thank god the 50 is kinda gone the wayside I've owned 2 over the years and they're basically a novelty item that's my opinion. I'm not sure of the OD of the 416 barrels. I seen where guys on that site will rip on grizzly all day long like I've stated earlier I've had no problems with mine it was basically new when I got it used. Your gonna wanna practice practice practice threading that took me a week or two every night before I felt comfortable enough to try it on a 400 buck barrel, and guess what my 31" barrel is 29.75 because I screwed up the tennon. But she's a tack driver  I was looking at the 1440 it looked like the slowest rpm is 60 that seems slow until your threading up to a shoulder. I swapped my single phase motor for a 3 phase and did a VFD upgrade so now I can thread at 1 RPM if I wanted I think 30 is where I did my last one and with a break resistor I can stop on a dime. Ive even added I flood type coolant system. I've done all this with the help with the guys in this group. Do you know what type of tooling your gonna run? I would suggest HSS that's what I find works best. Are you going to true and blue print? Are you going to single point? Are you going to use reamers? I'm not sure if it was in this group or the other that you stated you mainly be doing custom actions. What brands? Are you going to build or buy you own jigs? I'm trying to build my own to get more time and experience on my equipment. I've priced buying jigs and custom reamers I could drop another 3k a PTG tomorrow and still not scratch the surface. I've prolly got a couple grand in just tooling for my lathe I'm just now starting to tool up for my mill I've only about 5-600 bucks and haven't don't $h!t yet lol. Check out the viper on YouTube I've learned a lot from him.


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## gasmith (Jul 17, 2017)

I do have a machining background, just no machines currently.  Im sure you understand Im not the only one.  That wasnt me that posted on there. I am also gasmith on that page. I havent posted there yet.  I just joined not long ago and have been posting here but looking around the net after all your responses and seem to end up there a lot.  I realize theyre a little less forgiving on the other forum, thats why I posted here first.  As far as jobs go, truing and blueprinting are definitely gonna be on the list.  As far as tooling, thats gonna depend on what Im working with.  There will be a variety of tooling for a variety of applications.  I will need to practice anyway (and will have a couple months opportunity before the place actually opens) so I have prepared for this.  Im actually a graduate of Colorado School of Trades.  I understand what goes into doing these things you speak of and have done many of them before, I just havent had the scratch for my own machines and havent stayed in a single location long enough to justify such an endeavor.  

"I was looking at the 1440 it looked like the slowest rpm is 60 that seems slow until your threading up to a shoulder. I swapped my single phase motor for a 3 phase and did a VFD upgrade so now I can thread at 1 RPM if I wanted I think 30 is where I did my last one and with a break resistor I can stop on a dime."

That sounds like something I need to do.


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## gasmith (Jul 17, 2017)

"Are you going to build or buy you own jigs? I'm trying to build my own to get more time and experience on my equipment. I've priced buying jigs and custom reamers I could drop another 3k a PTG tomorrow and still not scratch the surface. I've prolly got a couple grand in just tooling for my lathe I'm just now starting to tool up for my mill I've only about 5-600 bucks and haven't don't $h!t yet lol. Check out the viper on YouTube I've learned a lot from him."

Im going to build a lot of jigs as well.  I also have a huge stash of "junk" parts that will allow me to get plenty of face time with the equipment.  This includes barrels and actions.  I hear ya on the tooling.  As I stated in my other thread on here, Im trying to make sure I learn what I can on these forums about gearing up and what different guys are doing  so I can get as close to setting myself up from the get go as I can (I realize that Im always gonna forget somethng, it always happens lol).  I will definitely check out Viper if you recommend him.


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## killswitch505 (Jul 17, 2017)

Well I'm super confused now with the back ground what equipment have you used? Why wouldn't you want to stick with what you know? Have you checked with the Colorado school of trades to see if they have anything they are willing to part with? Maybe some of you former instructors?


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## killswitch505 (Jul 17, 2017)

http://www.arwarnerco.com/c-12-turning.aspx

Here is where I get a lot of tooling kinda pricy but great quality again that's just my opinion.


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## gasmith (Jul 17, 2017)

killswitch505 said:


> Well I'm super confused now with the back ground what equipment have you used? Why wouldn't you want to stick with what you know? Have you checked with the Colorado school of trades to see if they have anything they are willing to part with? Maybe some of you former instructors?


I actually considered getting what it is I know.  I used an ACER lathe and a Bridgeport mill in school.  I was looking for others' input on quality comparison.  Ive worked on machines (including precision grinders grinding chromed parts for Caterpillar and Cummins, but thats another story), but Ive never been tasked with buying them.  Thats more what these threads Ive posted thus far have been about.


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## gasmith (Jul 17, 2017)

killswitch505 said:


> http://www.arwarnerco.com/c-12-turning.aspx
> 
> Here is where I get a lot of tooling kinda pricy but great quality again that's just my opinion.


Ill definitely check this out too.  i like to have a variety of wizardry in my bag of tricks.


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## gasmith (Jul 17, 2017)

When its all said and done, I really do appreciate the input from those who would like to help.  Sometimes I assume people are being sarcastic or something along those lines because lets face it, on most forums, people are jackholes.  lol


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## 3strucking (Jul 17, 2017)

Never heard of a Logan?


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## gasmith (Jul 17, 2017)

rightway1974 said:


> Never heard of a Logan?


Not till I got here.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 21, 2017)

gasmith said:


> It seems Taiwan is the way to go now.  This seems to have the whole package.




I have to agree, some of the top end PM machines are made in Taiwan, as was my machine. I am led to believe that the PM machines come from the Liang Dei Factory and apart from some cosmetic differences are the same machines. The specs certainly read the same.

Anyway whatever you do happy hunting and machining.


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