# Shaper vise



## Downwindtracker2 (Aug 23, 2017)

We all know a shaper vise is different than a milling machine or drill press vises. But shapers are rare animals and from what I've seen ,their vises are extinct around here. I have a 1950s  6" shop built baby shaper that I'm completing. What kind of problems will I run into using a 4" POS Chinese Kurt style vise?


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## f350ca (Aug 23, 2017)

It should work fine. I used a Palmgren vice which is little more than a heavy drill press vice on my 7 inch Logan. If the cut got REAL heavy the work would slip and save breaking something.






I've been using a 6 inch Taiwanese vice in the 16 inch shaper I have now. Would like to get a bigger one though.

Greg


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## Reeltor (Aug 23, 2017)

I am in the same boat as you, found a 16" shaper that I have just got running but haven't made any chips with yet.
Adam Booth aka ABom79 just bought a Shars vise for his 14" shaper; I don't think he has posted how the vise worked under the load of the shaper.





Greg was posting as I was getting the link; I have a palmgren vise on the mill that I just moved to the shaper.

Mike


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## Uglydog (Aug 23, 2017)

This simple vise plan cane out of popular mechanics, and was presumably a planer vise.
Might work?

Daryl
MN


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## vocatexas (Aug 31, 2017)

I was thinking about buying one of these for my 7 inch Atlas shaper:  http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1504

Has anybody here used a vise like this on a similar shaper and, if so, what were the pros and cons?


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## Downwindtracker2 (Aug 31, 2017)

On my Chinese vise.  I bought it on sale from BusyBee (Canadian Grizzly)a number of years back to use on the drill press. When I opened the box I realized it was too heavy and awkward, so it stayed in the box until that someday mill. The mill/drill came with a nice Japanese  5" conventional milling vise, so it stayed in the box until I got the shaper.

-the swivel plate was uneven and out of parallel, it was trued?? on a shaper
- the down wedging ball was very rough and so was the socket it fit into
- one of the jaws varies .007 in thickness ,which I haven't trued yet.
- and jaw heights were different
-the screw isn't an acme ,rather just a metric? thread

I think I paid $79.99 but that was a while back. The vise bed itself is parallel to the bottom, within a thou or so. Which I would call good.

I drilled the swivel plate to use as an adapter and slotted the vise for when I just use it . They just fit. But they eat height.

A shaper vise is low and wide, with the screw being anchored in the stationary jaw, unlike a milling machine vise. They also use the table as  the swivel plate.


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## Ulma Doctor (Aug 31, 2017)

here is a pdf for building your own vise, if you like the challenge!


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## seasicksteve (Sep 2, 2017)

Lookey Here
https://cleveland.craigslist.org/tls/d/4-vice/6290329465.html
Looks like a shaper vise ?


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## vocatexas (Sep 2, 2017)

That IS a shaper vise. Thanks! I'll see if I can contact him and get him to ship it.


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## vocatexas (Sep 2, 2017)

Thanks, Steve! Snagged it! I've only seen one other Atlas shaper vise come up for sale that I can remember. It was on E-bay and was pretty beat up. This one looks to be in decent shape. It's got to beat the crappy little drill press vise I've been using on it.


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## seasicksteve (Sep 2, 2017)

Glad it worked out


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## C-Bag (Sep 23, 2017)

Like has been noted, even the standard shaper swivel vise eats height clearance. I'm in a pickle right now as the piece I want to shape is 3" tall and it's just a little to tall to fit in my stock Atlas vise.After watching the Rudy K shaper vid I've been contemplating one like he has. It's a two piece and uses the table as the base. Most of the two piece milling vises I've seen are 6 or 8". So too big IMHO for the 7b. My first attempt is to make a backstop out of some Durabar that will clamp parallel to the cutter to the middle t-nut slot and use slots and mill clamps on the side of the table for the actual clamping pressure on the work. That should gain me 3" at least!


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## f350ca (Sep 23, 2017)

I have two pieces of 1x2 flat bar that I use as a table top vice. My table has 3 slots the fixed bar gets clamped to one, the second has set screw coming through the side. It gets bolted to one of the other slots and the set screws clamp the work. Tough to get the work flat to the table but once clamped it stays there.

Greg


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 24, 2017)

if you were so inclined you could make or buy a set of toe clamps.
they will securely force the work against the box, without the need for a vise.
you should also use a blocker when using toe clamps too, as a precaution .


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## Reeltor (Sep 24, 2017)

Ulma Doctor said:


> if you were so inclined you could make or buy a set of toe clamps.
> they will securely force the work against the box, without the need for a vise.
> you should also use a blocker when using toe clamps too, as a precaution .


 
Mike are you referring to fixture clamps similar to the ones from Mitee Bite or hold downs like the ones from Starrett?
I have read that the toe clamps have enormous holding strength, but I think in industry they are used primarily with end mills and rotational forces.    I am wondering if they will hold up to the forces of a shaper ram.  I have recently learned how easy it is for the shaper to push the work around, you can imagine how--- LOL







http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/54A#Features
http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/54A#Features
Starrett provides downloadable drawings and modeling.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 24, 2017)

Hi Reeltor,
here are the clamps i was referring to
https://www.google.com/search?q=toe...A-bup6FM,_&usg=__9OEJ5JugKp21tOhjLx5AFe8-0cs=

you use a blocker at the far end of the workpiece, and use the toe clamps for the sides


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## C-Bag (Sep 24, 2017)

Thanks Ulma Doctor, there were some really interesting clamps in those pics. Going to have to keep on the lookout for toe clamps.


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## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2017)

Wonder how effective these are? I could do that


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## Reeltor (Sep 25, 2017)

The clamping info is appreciated.  I always want to take a big bite with the horizontal mill and adequate clamping can be a problem.  Now that I have a shaper up and going, I will need to make and/or buy some clamps.
To get back to the OP's original question.  I am considering buying a set like this or just making the moving jaw part.  Two piece vice, seems like they would be ideal for using on a shaper.  This is a 6" vice from Grizzly for $129.95.


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## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2017)

That's a bit like Rudy K's vise is like and what I originally found. Problem is the 6" is the smallest and while this doesn't sound like a problem for you I think it's probably to big for my 7b where the table is only 6x6 1/2". The original vise is only 4", and unfortunately the smallest 2pc vise is 6".


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## Reeltor (Sep 25, 2017)

C-Bag said:


> That's a bit like Rudy K's vise is like and what I originally found. Problem is the 6" is the smallest and while this doesn't sound like a problem for you I think it's probably to big for my 7b where the table is only 6x6 1/2". The original vise is only 4", and unfortunately the smallest 2pc vise is 6".



Do a search for 2 piece vice, I know that I saw 3 & 4" ones when I originally searched for them.  I think Shars might have them too


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## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2017)

I've done several searches and Shars has only the 6 and 8". Same with Grizzley, EBay and craigslist.If you run into those smaller vises I'd sure appreciate a link. I've learned searches are not the same on different machines.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 25, 2017)

i have not seen the 2 piece in 4" vise version. that doesn't mean they don't exist
i would snatch one up in a second.

there are ways to make simple 4" table vises using square stock and bolts


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## Reeltor (Sep 25, 2017)

Apparently I was mistaken, I ran a new search and don't see anything smaller than the 6".  I will check to see if I bookmarked the link.  I remember seeing the vise and remarking to myself that 4" is too small for what I'm looking for.  If I turn up a link I'll definitely post it.
sorry to get your hopes up


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## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2017)

I just did another cruise of eBay and what caught my eye was some said 3 1/2 depth on the 6" vise.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 25, 2017)

C-Bag said:


> I just did another cruise of eBay and what caught my eye was some said 3 1/2 depth on the 6" vise.


that's a pretty nice opening and closing range for a 2 piece unit


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## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2017)

I wasn't sure what "depth" meant. I'm still really intreagued by the toe clamps, but not ready to shell out the kind of dough they want for them. I could see how like the Te-Co are hard to make with the threaded dovetail setup.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 25, 2017)

there are simpler methods you could use to make clamps too.
here is a link to old time literature for tooling and clamping devices for shapers and mills.
it will inspire home brewed ideas that won't cost much
http://www.nzdl.org/gsdlmod?e=d-000...=CL2.19&d=HASH01fa58d794c7abc57e5d6821.5&gt=1

if you look at Figure 7 and figure 14- you'll see the toe clamps i'm thinking of for you


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## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2017)

Yup, that's definitely the stuff. So do you think there's just one hold down bolt with the clamping pusher bolt (oh so technical) off set and rely on the bit of a protrusion into the table slot to keep it straight, or does that have two hold down bolts with the pusher bolt between them? Hard to tell with just a side view. But definitely got the brain cells poppin'.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 26, 2017)

You can use long pieces of stock and crossdrill the stock and thread for the pusher bolts. You could then drill the anchor holes In the toe clamp and then bolt to the table with t-nuts or other means


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## Rivett8 (Dec 31, 2017)

vocatexas said:


> I was thinking about buying one of these for my 7 inch Atlas shaper:  http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1504
> 
> Has anybody here used a vise like this on a similar shaper and, if so, what were the pros and cons?



Just a warning for others. I bought this vice for my Atlas 7B. Nice vise well built. But way to big for Atlas 7B.


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## C-Bag (Jan 1, 2018)

Rivett8 said:


> Just a warning for others. I bought this vice for my Atlas 7B. Nice vise well built. But way to big for Atlas 7B.



Hmm, it is a bit taller than the stock vise. I guess is all about what you are trying do. It's certainly better than no vise and a pretty good price at that! Especially compared to what they want for a possibly beat up old stock vise. You can also gain clearance by taking off the swivel. Sorry, I don't mean to second guess. I've gone through a lot of problems with my stock vise.

I got a great selection of Te-Co toe clamps (thanks Ulma Doctor) and was able to clamp the work right to the table. And for the first time was able to get truly square contiguous cuts. As I rotated the work,the cuts were square to each other. He shoots he scores, happy dance..... This led me to further investigate my stock vise and found one of the culprit was the old soft jaws. So the swivel base was warped(  was able to fly cut and fix) and the soft jaws were somehow sprung in the middle throwing my indexing off. Almost done making new soft jaws that are a little bit taller. Because for the stuff I do, the stock jaws seem to be too short. I had stuff cock in them and jam. Could be from the warp, could be too short. The new soft jaws are mystery steel and I can trim and true them. The old ones are too hard, I'd have to grind them and don't have a surface grinder.....yet.


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## whitmore (Jan 1, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> The new soft jaws are mystery steel and I can trim and true them. The old ones are too hard, I'd have to grind them and don't have a surface grinder.....yet.



Ever consider flame straightening?


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## C-Bag (Jan 1, 2018)

whitmore said:


> Ever consider flame straightening?



I might if I knew how to flame straighten. Care to elaborate?

Would this soften them enough to machine?


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## whitmore (Jan 1, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> I might if I knew how to flame straighten. Care to elaborate?



Metal can warp in heat treatment.   One way to prevent this
warping is to cool the part slowly and uniformly (bury it in ashes and wait a day).

Conversely, if you heat the steel and cool it NONuniformly, it can work the
metal according to a plan.   The key
is to aim the cooling so that the warp goes the way you want.

A warmed piece of hard metal, if cooled by an ice cube, water spray, or CO2 extinguisher,
will shrink on the cold side and the internal strain will cause the other side to take
on a slight bend, concave toward the cold spot.    After complete cooling, and maybe
a few light hammer taps, the strains are relieved and the  new shape is stable.

It isn't necessary to soften the steel, just get it to circa tempering heat.   Many
a frypan has  had water applied, made creaking noises, and taken on a warp,
all at canola-oil-not-yet-burning temperatures.

Here's a video showing the procedure 
***correction, here's the heat-straightening video*** I goofed the first time...


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## benmychree (Jan 1, 2018)

Ulma Doctor said:


> here is a pdf for building your own vise, if you like the challenge!


I made one just like that when in my high school machine shop, using one on their shaper for a model; I had a 3 period class, it was the only time I ever made the honor roll !  I let the vise, made of solid steel go somewhere along the line, many years ago.


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## C-Bag (Jan 2, 2018)

whitmore said:


> Metal can warp in heat treatment.   One way to prevent this
> warping is to cool the part slowly and uniformly (bury it in ashes and wait a day).
> 
> Conversely, if you heat the steel and cool it NONuniformly, it can work the
> ...



That was very interesting, thanks. I know next to nothing about heat treating etc. Personally I want machinable jaws as the old original jaws are worn besides warped. So the new jaws not being hardened is by design. They are also thicker.

 In talking to my brother who actually worked most of his life as a machinist, said he trued up his machining vises when they got worn from clamping pieces over and over in the same spot. I have no idea how these jaws are bowed just between the attaching screws. I can only guess, but I'd never seen jaws do that so I over looked that problem at first. I've found so many odd problems with this shaper it has proven to be a daily lesson in deductive reasoning and metrology.


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## C-Bag (Jan 7, 2018)

Uglydog said:


> This simple vise plan cane out of popular mechanics, and was presumably a planer vise.
> Might work?
> 
> Daryl
> ...


On my daily patrol of CL Imagine my surprise when I found this exact vise made by Skinner!


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