# The Hobby-machinist Die Filer



## Bill Gruby

Time for a new project. I will be building a Die Filer. This will be a larger one than most of you are used to seeing. The Table will measure 14.000 X 14.000. It will be 16.000 tall. A "Scotch Yoke" will be utilized to convert the circular motion to linear motion of the file. The Table will also tilt forward 45 degrees.

 Here are a couple of pix of the Table Trunnions ready to be cut. They must be the same so they are bolted together. The 4 inch diameter piece bolted to that is to mount them off center by .625 inches in the rotary table.

 I am getting together with bill50 to do the prints in CAD and PDF for all to download if they want.

 "Billy G"


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## Andre

Very cool! Can't wait to see how this turns out.

By the way, I did find a place that sells machine files. They don't give them away that's for sure though.
http://www.falcontool.com/Section-1/Parallel-Machine-Files


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## Bill Gruby

Locked in and ready to cut. Need to clean first though. The last job sure was a messy one. LOL

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Time to get off my butt and start machining these.

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Bill Gruby said:


> Locked in and ready to cut. Need to clean first though. The last job sure was a messy one. LOL
> "Billy G"



Looks like my shop Bill.  Until yesterday anyway,spent the day cleaning.  Looking forward to seeing this project progress.


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## Billh50

I have been spending the whole week cleaning and reorganizing my shop area. I seem to be finding room for more stuff now.


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## cjtoombs

I've been wanting a die filer.  Looked at a couple of casting kits but I've got another major project going that will take until at least the end of this month, and probably until the middle of next month (when it is required to be done .  I'm looking forward to seeing your build, and the resulting prints.


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## Bill Gruby

Started the machining only to find out the swing maxed out and hit the mill tower. Easy fix. I just cut the corners off the blank. Still close but it clears.

 "Billy G"


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## rwm

Billy- I built one of these recently. I made my Scotch Yoke as an open frame design. It works but it can be noisy when running. I should have made an enclosed design and run it in an oil bath. I can put up some pics if you want. What design are you planning? 
R


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## Bill Gruby

Rotary motion to linear motion will be thru a "Scotch Yoke". It will also be open frame except for the Plexiglas cover.

 "Billy G"


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## rwm

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Bill Gruby

Those are small. The Table on mine will be 14 X 14 inches.  It will be over 17 inches Tall. Nice though. I believe both are available as castings?

 "Billy G"


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## rwm

Those are both available as castings. I like the design of the second one.  I originally wanted to cast my own design but I ended up building mine from an old bench top drill press since I am not set up to cast iron.
R


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## Bill Gruby

Had a badly interrupted day yesterday. I want to finish the trunnions today.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Rotary table operations are finished. Change to the vise and it's back to work. Band saw work to do also.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Starting to look like Trunnions.


Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Drill and Tap some holes and they are done.

 "Billy G"


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## Terrywerm

Wonderful project, Bill. I will be following along...


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## Mark_f

I like this. maybe should be next on the never ending list. ( I do a LOT of filing)


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## Rick Leslie

Following along for sure. I never knew I needed a filer until I saw one in action. Thanks for the detailed build thread.


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## savarin

Do they use special files?


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## Bill Gruby

Yes Charles. They are shorter and have straight round tangs. Google Parallel Machine Files.

 This part is next. It is the guide for the Trunnion. Two are needed and they are mirror images, 1 left, 1 right..


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## Bill Gruby

Frame roughed in. Many holes to drill and tap in the back and sides. Frame measures 3.250 X 8.000 X 15.750 inches. As I said, this is not your everyday Die-Filer.

 "Billy G"


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## rwm

I have been using conventional files in my filer. It only has about a 1.25" throw. I cut the tapered tips off the file and keep the parallel part. I mount it inverted so it cuts on the downstroke. Some files lend themselves to this more readily than others based on their profile.
I use and old hand tightening drill chuck to mount the files on the shaft. It seems to work fine and is "quick change." Bill, I'm sure you will come up with something more sophisticated than that!
Hey are you cutting the aluminum plate on that table saw?
Watching intently.
R


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## Bill Gruby

I gave it a try for the first time. I won't cut aluminum on the Table Saw again. Too many things can go wrong in a real hurry.

 "Billy G"


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## Monk

Thank you for this post, Bill! I had looked at the cast kit that rwm posted the pic of (available thru Metal Lathe in Pine Grove, Pennsylvania), but this looks like a very tasty alternative! Please keep us posted.

Dave


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## rwm

Bill Gruby said:


> I gave it a try for the first time. I won't cut aluminum on the Table Saw again. Too many things can go wrong in a real hurry.
> 
> "Billy G"


I have a table saw set up with a special aluminum blade. I have cut up to 1". I know what you mean about something going wrong. It's a scary process. I am always afraid the blade is going to bind and launch a piece of metal at me!
R


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## chips&more

As said, the files are kinda special and not your normal garden variety. You want the file to cut on the down stroke. And it would be best to have files with parallel sides so it files square or the same path on the full stroke. As far as holding the files in the machine, to each his own. I have a factory made die filer and it can chuck/hold just about any shape you give it. If you are looking for round files, say in the 3/16” round size a good source for them is to use a chainsaw file. Other than that, it’s the auction stuff on the internet for die files or pay the price for new. I’m always looking for files for my machine and it’s really hard to find any garden variety that’s gonna work…Good Luck, Dave.


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## Bill Gruby

How does this look? The file is complete, all 15 drawings. I need to import it to my computer.

"Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Love your drawings Bill, as I can actually make sense of them (they actually look like drawings I saw back in Drafting Class). 

The more modern notation (and that used for the Quorn and Bonelle) doesn't. Progress.


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## Bill Gruby

Bill;

They were done for me by someone else. I was going to have Bill50 do them but this other person had already started them. They were done from my hand drawn prints  importing them to a CAD program. These make my originals look amateur.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

This is the 3d and hopefully the last upgrade of the prints. I deleted the other two to avoid confusion.

  "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

Thank you Bill for adding that large radius dimension to the Trunnion drawing. After I said that I could read your prints I was having a hard time figuring what that should be, and figured that it wasn't critical as long as both pieces are the same. That or I'm not as competent at reading these as I thought.  

That dimension also points me to the centerpoint for the .5" wide arcs as well. It has been a long time since HS drafting class...


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## cjtoombs

Bill, is drawing number 8, the one marked hand crank parts actually the crankshaft?  And if so, what is the stroke?


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## Bill Gruby

Yes, that crankpin passes thru the yoke. The circular motion is changed to linear motion at that point. The stroke is 2 inches.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

On with the show. Today we do the L&R Trunnion Rails. They are mirror images so both will be cut erom the same 6" diameter by 1" thick piece of 6061. AHA, there is something missing on this print. There should be a slot that the locking stud goes thru. We will get that fixed today.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

4.00 inches done need to get to 5.00. It is just shy of the .562 depth. A skim cut will be taken to insure flatness. The cutting diagram is also shown so the new people can see how to cut mirror images. The darkened area is waste. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

So far so good. Blank ready to cut. Vertical Bandsaw here we come.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

I can finally breathe easy. The two radii are a perfect match. One cut is finished. Now the 45degree cuts and the locking slots and these are done. Whew !!!! It gets tricky now, if I forget to cut right and left, UH-OH.

"Billy G"


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## rwm

Beautiful work. I think I need an assembly diagram to understand those prints. Call me slow!
R


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## Bill Gruby

Nah, it's a straight forward assembly once all the parts are made. Just the locking slots to go and these are ready to mount. I'm done for the day, it's nice to be retired.  

"Billy G"


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## Kevinb71

Looks great so far! It is fun watching your projects come together.

I have just gotten back on the forum as I had some trouble with the new format and then got busy. Where are the plans stored now?


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## Bill Gruby

The prints are here Kevin.
 "Billy G"


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## Kevinb71

Thanks!


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## Bill Gruby

All things taken into account, the fit up so far is extremely tight
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 and spot on.
 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Today I hope to get all the stuff I have completed so far assembled. This will leave me clear to start the drive components.

 "Billy G"


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## itsme_Bernie

Subscribed!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Bill Gruby

Got the slots done on the Rails. They are ready to mount now.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

One right side, one left. Only mounting to go.

  "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Tomorrow will be a real work day. I laid out the holes on the Back Plate today. I want it done tomorrow. Sides and all mounted. I want to start working on the drive Saturday.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

One serious piece of Aluminum arrived today, ten days early. .5oo x 24 x 24 and weighing in at 36 lbs. The Table will come from this piece.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The Trunnions and Rails are done and mounted. I got lucky this time, nothing moved during the match drilling. Whew.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Drilling matched holes with the drill press is NOT Rocket Science. You just have to know the basics of holding the two or more parts together. I know, the mill is easier but not all of you have one. This is the alternative. Not the two pieces of wood, that is to keep the alignment of the two parts. Again, you do not need a shop full of tools to build, you just need you.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Go sloooow and keep checking the drill. If you feel the slightest vibration while drilling the drill is fouled with the chip. Stop and clean it. These five #29 holes took 20 minutes to drill, they are 1 1/2 inches deep.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The left side is finished and mounted.

 Picture #2 here shows an old trick to start the tap straight. Drill the clearance hole in the mating part and use that part as a Tap Guide.

 #3  shows it standing alone for the first time. Do your homework and everything drops into place.

 "Billy G"


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## jumps4

Looking good Bill
a lot of work went into just the pivots
there have been a lot of times one of these would have come in handy for me
Steve


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## Ken_Shea

That really looks great Bill,
Question,
Do die filers back off on the up stroke?

These look like they would be very handy, if I didn't have my bucket full now ...........................


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## Bill Gruby

No Ken, they don't. Good idea though. Food for thought.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Got to the local Metal Shop and the Tech. School yesterday. They rough cut the Table  for me. 24 x 24 is a handful in a small shop. It will measure 14 x 14 inches. It is within .030 now.

"Billy G"


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## jumps4

nice chunk of aluminum
getting materials here in my part of Florida is hard and expensive there is no industry here just tourist attractions.
there is a local recycling shop that was cheap but as interest grew so did their prices.
if you can at the end of the project can you figure your estimated cost?
Steve


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## Bill Gruby

I have been keeping track of the cost Steve. What you see there is $116.86. Not bad so far. I set the budget at $350.00, I won't hit that.

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Looking good Bill


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## jumps4

That's not bad at all.
most of my project designs have to change as materials become available.
to buy online makes them too costly.
I have been collecting pieces to make a cast iron table saw that turns a 14" cold saw blade at 58 rpm
I have a worm drive, motor and an old cast iron table saw so far.
Steve


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## Bill Gruby

For the fun of it I just checked out Ebay for the table material. They must think this stuff is gold. 24 x 24 x .500 is $130.00 S&H included. I paid a case of beer for mine.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

In the early days there were deals to be had on eBay. Now everyone thinks they are going to get rich...


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## Terrywerm

Your project looks good so far, Bill!  I may not get in here to have a look every day anymore, but I get here for a good look when I can!


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## rwm

Looking great. I wonder if you could find an old band saw table cheap and adapt it?
R


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## Bill Gruby

Necessity is the Mother of Invention. Would be even better if the Trunnions came with it.

OK -- back to work. This is the Table "0" block. Needs holes and it to is a done deal. Then we wait for bearing stock. Should not be a long wait.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

It was a walk in the park, it's a done deal. Now we can "0" the Table.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

With that 1.500 inch Spindle hole all that is left to do on the back plate are the three 8-32 spindle mount holes. It's been a long trying day. At this point a mistake is not an option. Not bad for 11 days work. I started on the forth.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

All parts for the frame and table are complete. All holes are drilled and tapped as required. Now it's a waiting game to get the drive materials. Everything should be here this week.

 "Billy G"


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## rwm

Bill- I see you drilling those holes on the Clausing that I am considering! I assume that is a 8520? Any issue with the 4.9" Y axis travel in doing that?
R


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## Bill Gruby

No problem on mine, I have a 5 inch riser block on my 8420. I had to take it out this morning for a friend to copy.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Found some scrap in the bin to make the Yoke Guides.  Now they are a done deal.

 "Billy G"


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## rwm

Yoke guides on each side! Now I get the plan. This is looking great.
R


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## Bill Gruby

All set. The left one can move .060 to make up for the slightest misalignment.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The bearing blocks will line up perfect. This wooden mockup proves it. It's gonna start to get crowded in there real quick. LOL

"Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Looks like you need to borrow my unobtainium space adder 

Looking good!


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## Bill Gruby

Short name for that tool Jim is a "Shoehorn"

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Stock arrived for the Bearing Blocks today. Bearing Stock will come in Friday? Also got a set of 8-32 transfer Screws today. Now the Table will easily mount. There are 14 screws holding it down, six are blind holes. Tomorrow will be a looooong day.

 "Billy G"


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## cjtoombs

I've been watching Die Filers on eBay for some time now, and it amazes me what some people think they are worth.  And always local pickup.  I know they actually sell in the ~200 range, but I see them listed anywhere from 500 to 1300 all the time.  Some people list things without doing adequate research on past selling prices.


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## Bill Gruby

All three Bearing Blocks have been bolted together and squared in the mill. Here they are being line bored. At this point they have just .030 to go. This is where I take a break. It lets the parts cool to a stable dimension. I may or may not have .030 to go.

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Just out of curiosity Bill, why did you choose the lathe over the mill to line bore?


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## Bill Gruby

That's a good question. The mill would have been faster. I don't know why I did it this way. Just used to it I guess.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

With a slight interference fit on that 1" OD tubing the Bearing Blocks are bored. I ended up only taking .025.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

I needed to stop on the Bearing Blocks. I swapped out the Wingnuts for 1/4-28  Coupling Nuts for the Tilt Locks.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

It's time to transfer the mount holes and get these done. There's much to do before they are finished. Bearing material is supposed to be here today. That 1" tube is for alignment only.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

They are mounted. The tube spins freely when the set screws are loosened. Now to shape them.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

This Die-Filer is really starting to shape up. The parts just drop together.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Bearing material was a no show. We are at a standstill. Bummer.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

On the Table print (#12) you will see a number of mounting holes. They were deemed necessary at the time. In the picture you see only four and they hold the Table rock solid. This is all we will use. The unit just tipped the scales at 40 lbs. The steel parts have not been added yet. I see this Die-Filer coming in at around 100 lbs..

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

The picture before had one corner done at a 1.5" radius. It didn't look in perspective with the table size. I opened it up to 1.750" radius and it is now pleasing to the eye.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Today we tackle the center hole in the Table.  It's 2.5" diameter thru with a 3.00 diameter counter-bore .125 deep for the Table inserts.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

AN ACCIDENT LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO HAPPEN.  That ball is one continuous chip. It's as sharp as any razor blade you can fine and the size of a baseball. It would not hesitate to tear you up. Stop once in a while to clear the drill bit. You won't be sorry.

 "Billy G"


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## wrmiller

My friend taught me to 'peck drill' or something like that. Small plunges with frequent releases prevents large chips like that. Unless you're using a power down feed of course.


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## Bill Gruby

Yup, just small plunges. If you are in a hurry, drill it another time.

OK --  the center hole and counter-bore are done (2.5 thru 3.0 counter-bore .125 deep). I need to drill two more mounting holes and I reached my goal for today.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

In place and looking good. My day is over.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

These Transfer Screw Sets come in real handy when transferring more than one hole at a time. You can do six at once. The body that holds the punches doubles as the wrench to put them in place. The last pic is the dimples. They are in the red circles. I have many different thread sizes of these.
	

		
			
		

		
	







 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

I just had a random thought -- what if we added a removable overarm and plunger style blade holder?? Maybe I should stop thinking. 

 "Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

Bill Gruby said:


> I just had a random thought -- what if we added a removable overarm and plunger style blade holder?? Maybe I should stop thinking.
> 
> "Billy G"



HAHA, yeah, that cost lots of time, very often for nothing.


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## Bill Gruby

Now you've done it. I'm going to make it happen.

 "Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

Well...... OK, as long as you show us how


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## Bill Gruby

OK -- Done deal. I will just add it to the end of the build.

  "Billy G"


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## Mark_f

Hey Bill,
I was thinking of making the die filer my next project, but found a die filer with a 12 " table, all cast iron, yoke in a closed crank case with oil, table tilts 30 degrees each way, 1/2 hp motor. It has an over arm also. Is $100 a good deal for it?


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## Bill Gruby

You stole it.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Look Ma, no red.

 "Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

Bill Gruby said:


> You stole it.



He did if it's true, I don't see no steenking pictures


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## Mark_f

Ken_Shea said:


> He did if it's true, I don't see no steenking pictures



The pictures are in my grinder build thread 
( I'm not sure how to take that comment, I hope in jest)


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## Mark_f

Bill, 

Your die filer is really fantastic. I was hoping to build it as my next project , but one just fell in my lap. 

I am really impressed with yours though.


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## Bill Gruby

Still no bearing material. I went to  a piece of Naval Brass I had on hand. It won't heat up enough to cause any problems. The shafts are going to be ground .500  303. One done, two to go.

"Billy G"


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## ogberi

Did you use carbide or HSS on that naval brass?   I have a chunk that I think a hammerhead is hiding in...


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## Bill Gruby

I used HSS. The only time I use carbide is in boring operations. Never on the OD.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

And then there were three. Only eight more parts to be made and it's over.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Hot off the machine, this is the final upgrade of the prints. These are correct.

 "Billy G"


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## rwm

Beautiful. Thank you for sharing the prints.
I see how you intend your yoke mechanism to work now. I was toying with the idea of having a ball bearing on the eccentric shaft running in a larger yoke. Any merit to that idea? I was thinking it might be smoother and quieter.
Mine uses this type of setup:


Even though the clearances are tight it can make a racket.
R


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## Bill Gruby

That is no different in operation than mine. It just has one more moving part. The more moving parts you have the more noise you have.

"Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

Wouldn't it be necessary to shield the motion parts from filings? even a little rubber umbrella of some sort on top should do it.

Thanks for uploading the prints Bill.

Ken


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## Bill Gruby

Never gave that a thought Ken. Only time will tell.

 This is a Scotch Yoke  Mechanism in operation. Notice only Two moving parts, not Three.






 "Billy G"


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## rwm

Ken_Shea said:


> Wouldn't it be necessary to shield the motion parts from filings? even a little rubber umbrella of some sort on top should do it.
> 
> Thanks for uploading the prints Bill.
> 
> Ken


Since the files cut on the downstroke the chips head right for the top bearing. It is easy to create a shield for this. Mine uses a felt wiper around the shaft for this purpose. There is also a fitting for dust collection.
Bill- you are probably right that the ball bearing would just add another part and not really contribute. Then again, it may prevent wear on the yoke surfaces and keep the tolerances closer (quieter.) Mine did not get noisy until it wore in a little. It's really not too loud though, just a clickety clack.
R


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## Mark_f

Don't you have to keep this scotch yoke well oiled? And if so, if it is open, I would think everything would want to stick to it. I know there are open die filers, but never paid any attention to the underside.


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## Bill Gruby

Mark;

I have seen many of these Scotch Yoke Drives and most were open mechanisms. The yoke itself on mine will be oil-lite Bronze. Drive pin will be SS. I expect no surprises. The sliding bar mechanism, seen earlier, will need constant lubrication of some kind IMHO. Too many surfaces are touching at the same time. The true Scotch Yoke has only a small amount of contact at any given time.

I have seen both in operation and chose the true Scotch Yoke. I also contemplated using a connecting rod but wear ruled it out.

"Billy G"


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## Mark_f

rwm said:


> Since the files cut on the downstroke the chips head right for the top bearing. It is easy to create a shield for this. Mine uses a felt wiper around the shaft for this purpose. There is also a fitting for dust collection.
> Bill- you are probably right that the ball bearing would just add another part and not really contribute. Then again, it may prevent wear on the yoke surfaces and keep the tolerances closer (quieter.) Mine did not get noisy until it wore in a little. It's really not too loud though, just a clickety clack.
> R



This is what I was wondering. The difference between an open and closed filer. The one I just bought is very old, has a lot of miles on it, But runs completely silently. But the mechanism is in a closed crankcase filled with oil. We had one in the shop I worked in years ago, but I don't remember if it was open or not.


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## Mark_f

Bill Gruby said:


> Mark;
> 
> I have seen many of these Scotch Yoke Drives and most were open mechanisms. The yoke itself on mine will be oil-lite Bronze. Drive pin will be SS. I expect no surprises. The sliding bar mechanism, seen earlier, will need constant lubrication of some kind IMHO. Too many surfaces are touching at the same time. The true Scotch Yoke has only a small amount of contact at any given time.
> 
> I have seen both in operation and chose the true Scotch Yoke. I also contemplated using a connecting rod but wear ruled it out.
> 
> "Billy G"


Ahhhh. That explains a lot. 
Thanks Bill


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## Bill Gruby

Those prints (rev.5) are spot on. I made a wooden yoke to check. Perfect.

 "Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Looking good!  Can't wait to see it in action.


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## Bill Gruby

Arrived at another stand still, waiting on materials that are a week overdue.

Both upper and lower linear motion shafts are finished here.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

It seems we have a Coffee Mug Collector in our ranks. This is the third time he has asked about my cup. I will not mention his name, but here it is in all its glory. Let me know if this offends someone and I will remove it.

 "Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

Looking better and better Bill!
What is the general strokes per minute used in a die filer?

Ken


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## Bill Gruby

That depends on the Die Filer manufacturer Ken. Mine will hover around 200 SPM. I have see them as low as 50 SPM and up to 300 SPM

"Billy G" .


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## Ken_Shea

With that much variance a variable speed would be a nice addition.
What have you decide on to arrive at your aprox 200spm?


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## Bill Gruby

DC Gear Motor running at 150 RPM with variable speed. No pulleys, just direct drive thru a coupling.

 "Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

Bill,
Hope you don't mind all the questions.
What is the stroke on die filers, Ive a reason for asking of course.

Ken


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## Bill Gruby

I already answered that one in post #129.

 "Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

I was asking about the "stroke" not SPM, the question was answered from your prints.

Thanks
Ken


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## Bill Gruby

Strokes are all different also Ken. Anywhere from .750 up, mine is 2 inches. Sorry about my mistake.

 "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

303 SS to the rescue. Had an unpolished piece in the Scrap Bin. The "Yoke" is no bullet proof. I am a little out of sorts right now. I may or may not get more done today.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

With Sophies' pending operation I was having bad thoughts so I turned to the shop.

Got the spindle body done and one bearing in.

"Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

Hope things smooth out for you Bill.

Ken


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## Bill Gruby

Thank you Ken;

I had a few minutes to kill so I did this in the shop. For you new guys it's called "Engine Turning. For the most part it is done wrong. Abrasives are used to make the swirls. This removes a minute amount of surface material and is almost etched into the surface. The correct way is to use only oil and a semi-hard flat circular tool. This burnishes the surface. If you run your finger across the surface you will feel nothing but the flat surface itself. I haven't done this in years but wish to do the Table before Hard Anodize. This cannot be done in a short amount of time and must be completed in one sitting. Yes, I will show you how it's done correctly.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

That first try is like a ghost pattern, very faint. I played with it last night and came up with a much better one. I am using a 1 inch diameter birch dowel. The hardest part of Engine Turning is the centers. They need to almost fade into the rest of the circle but still be somewhat pronounced. I have some time this afternoon and will make up the table story board.

Actually the hardest part is knowing you only have one shot at it. You can't go back and properly fix any mistakes. They are there permanently.

"Billy G"


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## Grumpy Gator

What happened to the Mickey Mug ?
           ***G***


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## Bill Gruby

My Grandson took it.   

  "Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

I finalized the numbers last night. I won't get anything done for a few days as they are moving my wife to the nursing Home for after-care.

Swirl Diameter --- .9375
X-Axis Spacing --- .750
Y-Axis Spacing --- .5625
Swirl Offset --- ..3750


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## Billh50

Glad to hear the news Bill.  Hope she does well and comes home soon.


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## Bill Gruby

This board will ease the pain. I figured everything in and transposed it to this table. At any moment I will know if something is wrong and correct it.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

This may not look like a lot but it's almost 20 minutes work. It's called a "Fader Line". It is used to fill in the first row of full "Swirls". There will be one on each edge. All are completed before the "Swirls" are started. They are also just "Half Swirls". Gotta run.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Could not sleep last night. I finished the edges at around 3:00AM. Nothing will get done today. I will not be home till late tonight.

"Billy G"


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## JimDawson

That is going to be beautiful when you get it done.


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## Bill Gruby

I'm optimistic Jim. The last one I did this big was 26 years ago.

 "Billy G"


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## markknx

Billy Very Nice Work There. Also a grand way to keep your mind occupied. Hope all is going well for you and your wife. I will say another prayer for her.
Mark


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## Bill Gruby

Got to leave you guys. The party starts at 1:00 PM. I have to get ready.

This is 4 completed rows. Looking good so far. Not the best I have done but OK.

"Billy G"


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## JimDawson

Wow,  I need to try that.  That's purdy!!


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## markknx

Billy,
When you have some time (I know you have a lot going on right now) Could you explain to me was engine turning originally done for a practical purpose like lapping a large surface. or just decorative finish? If for practical use what would some of the early uses have been? Just curious about this art.
Mark

 PS: I think the mug is cool.


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## Bill Gruby

That's a tall question to answer Mark. In the beginning it is to my understanding that Engine Turning was the Craftsmens signature. It served to tell who did the work, especially in watchmaking. Now it is a little known art used for decoration. At one time the swirls were thought to help in lubrication. This is a myth because when done correctly the surface is only6 burnished. Today it is cheated with abrasives. This began when they started using lapping compound to speed the process. Look up "Rose Engines, you will be pleasantly surprised.

 "Billy G"


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## markknx

Thanks Billy, I was on my way to bed But I will look up ROSE engines in the morn. thanks again. And that does look to be an art for very nice looking to. I read about it in one of the books I read on machining. If I recall they lapping compound or some abrasive.
Happy Easter.
Mark


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## Bill Gruby

Arriving at the center it gets a little tricky. The dowel wants to wander. Patience is the only hope for success.

"Billy G"


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## Mark_f

Bill Gruby said:


> View attachment 98972
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arriving at the center it gets a little tricky. The dowel wants to wander. Patience is the only hope for success.
> 
> "Billy G"



That is beautiful Bill. I haven't seen that done in 30 years.


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## rwm

Bill- that is masterful! What great look. On aluminum, how much harder does this process make the surface? Will it be significantly scratch resistant?
R


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## Bill Gruby

Hard Anodize does not harden the surface as in "Hardening". It does however make the surface more resilient and slippery. Depending on how deep the anodizing goes will tell scratch resistance. I am told by the shop doing it for me that .040 will make it just the way I want. Time will tell.

"Billy G"


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## markknx

Billy, It is coming along very nice! If I was to try this on a smaller piece using a smaller dowel Is there a formula for X,Y,O. or is it just a matter of covering all surface without covering the center of the swirl? I do want to at least play with this when the Dr. says I can use my arm again. Also I guess I should ask how much pressure on the dowel? and what type of oil? Wish I was close enough to come by and see the artist at work.

Yes I did Look up the Rose Engines You were right. Very awesome machines. I am so amazed at what man has been able to achieve in the making of machines. CNC and robotics are great but I still just love seeing a machine with moving parts like gears and cams.

In my search I also saw a machine Called a Bordering Machine Cool machines.

Thanks again for sharing this with us,
Mark


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## Bill Gruby

No magic formula that I am aware of Mark. I lay out a couple of rows on paper the get the numbers. Trial and error.

 "Billy G"


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## markknx

Thanks Billy


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## Bill Gruby

Her sister showed up so I left them to talk.

Yipee we are past the hole. Another 2 hours to go.

"Billy G"


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## Mark_f

That is really beautiful , Bill and it is going to make the die filer look great.


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## Bill Gruby

That's it, 7 hours on and off. I'm tired. Not quite what I was after but better than before. It's a keeper.

"Billy G"


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## JimDawson

That die filer is going to be so pretty you are not going to want to use it.  Beautiful!!


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## markknx

bill that looks AWESOME!


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## savarin

A work of art Bill. Will it take much to damage the looks?


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## Bill Gruby

Right now Charles it wouldn't take a lot to damage it. After Anodizing though it should stand up well. Thank you all for the kind words.

 "Billy G"


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## Boswell

This is amazing. Thanks for sharing this technique. I will have a lot more respect for the craftsman/Artist the next time I see this type of finish on a part.


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## markknx

I Tried just a little of this but my overlaps did not hide the previous circle not sure if I need to press harder, hold longer, or speed up spindle. A the videos on line are using abrasives. I want to learn to do it the Billy way. I will tot some more. But I have to go easy in the shop right now.
Mark


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## Bill Gruby

These two pictures are important. Fig. A shows small black triangles. These are caused by the swirls being too small. There are two ways to compensate for this: #1 and easiest, make the swirls larger and #2 make the dimension "B" smaller. Either way is trial and error. Name your poison.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Mark;

 My Drill Press is running at 1500 RPM for "Engine Turning". The speed has to be there because I don't use abrasives. You need to turn fast enough to burnish (Burn) the swirl onto the surface. Lots of pressure also.

 "Billy G"


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## markknx

Bill,
Material is 6061. The dowel is 3/8oak. Spindle speed is 610 rpm. The finish is rough more like light grooves or scratches. And when I do my second row the full circle of the first row can still be seen. I am holding the dowel to the part for about 10 seconds. Any advice?
Mark


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## markknx

Sorry Bill I left this window open and it didn't up date with your post. I will kick up my speed and see where that gets me.
Thanks again for your post and input.
Mark


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## markknx

Thank you Bill that improved things a lot. I will clean Up a piece of scrap tomorrow set a fence and see how I do.
Mark


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## Bill Gruby

Oil -- Norton Honing Oil. In a hurry, use Toothpaste.
Tool -- This time an Oak Dowel but I try to get Walnut. I turn my own from square stock.
Speed -- Minimum of 1500 RPM
Time -- This is a judgement call. It can take any amount of time to get the Swirls to fade. I do it in 15 second intervals. I have had it smoke before it was right.


"Billy G"


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## Mark_f

That is a pretty table though.

 A couple years ago I went to West Virginia to pick up a three axle dump truck for a friend who bought it. when I saw this truck I couldn't believe it . The complete dump bed was aluminum and the WHOLE bed tail gate and all was done with these swirls. It was fantastic. how in the world would someone do this and I can't imagine what it cost. ( the cab was custom painted with huge eagles on each side) .


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## markknx

I've seen larger SS panels with this finish touched up with abrasive disks. might be the same for the truck.


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## cjtoombs

I sat in on a company seminar when I was in college, they made cleaning and bottling equipment for the beer industry (they still use returnable bottles in other countries).  They showed a picture of a bottle cleaner they sold to a brewery in China, the entire front of it was engine turned stainless steel, it must have been 10' x 20'.  Probably a good thing they didn't have to do the whole thing, since it was something like 100' long.


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## Bill Gruby

12 inch pulley arrived this morning. Made a bushing and it's a done deal.  Need to work up a mounting base from 2x2 Aluminum Angle and we are close.

"Billy G"


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## Bill Gruby

Two mounts are roughed out. They are made from 2" Aluminum Angle .250 thick.

"Billy G"


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## markknx

well here is what I got. Bill you might want to close your eyes. I just can't seem to keep any of it real consistent. I even managed to burn the AL.  The first photos are wood dowel on AL. the second two are wood dowel on SS and then I just played with a Nylon abrasive brush. (not that Pretty.) any how I said I wouldreport back so here it is.


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## markknx

Your die filer is coming along nice.


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## Bill Gruby

Mark;

 I get a Hobby Machinist Error when I try to open your attachments. I really want to see them.

 "Billy G"


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## markknx

Yeah I had issues I think I got it fixed let me know


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## Bill Gruby

Mark;

 That is not bad for you initial trials. All you need to achieve what I do is time and practice. You did well.

 "Billy G"


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## markknx

Thanks for the Kind words. Although I know its bad. This give me more respect for the art you do. It seems like one of them things where you just have to find what the things your doing wrong are and correct them. All I have to do is figure it out. The SS seems easier up to the very fine line between nice finish and Bluing.
Thanks again for all your tips and kind words
Mark


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## Bill Gruby

And then it  got feet. The mounts are done. There are many was to mount this "Die-Filer" so no prints will be done for these unless someone asks. Mine are just 2x2 aluminum angle. Pretty straight forward.

"Billy G"


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## Mark_f

Looks good , Bill. You tried it out yet?


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## Bill Gruby

I have some small things to tie together on it before power can be added Mark. By the end of next week it will be a running machine. I expect no surprises though. Too many things are keeping me away from spending enough time to complete the task.

 "Billy G"


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## dulltool17

Bill, you sure do nice work!


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## markknx

coming along real nice bill.  How is your wife doing? Good I hope.
Mark


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## Bill Gruby

Sophie is doing well, thank you Mark. She is getting stronger everyday. She will be home soon where she belongs.

 "Billy G"


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## markknx

Glad to hear this Bill!


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## Billh50

I am sure it will be a great relief when she finally comes home.


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## Bill Gruby

With Bob passing my head is listing a little. I went to the shop to seek refuge. These are the knobs that lock the table tilt.

"Billy G"


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## Ken_Shea

Dang it, been missing the updates, I dislike very much having to visit each email update in order to get additional updates.
If you miss or over look one you get no more.

Looking great, table top is really impressive.


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## Ken_Shea

Hi Bill,
You stalled for various reasons on your die filer?

Been hoping to see you working it.

Ken


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## uncle harry

Bill Gruby said:


> That's a tall question to answer Mark. In the beginning it is to my understanding that Engine Turning was the Craftsmens signature. It served to tell who did the work, especially in watchmaking. Now it is a little known art used for decoration. At one time the swirls were thought to help in lubrication. This is a myth because when done correctly the surface is only6 burnished. Today it is cheated with abrasives. This began when they started using lapping compound to speed the process. Look up "Rose Engines, you will be pleasantly surprised.
> 
> "Billy G"



When I was building specialized glass tube forming machinery we used a 3/4 dia dowel with a 1 inch square "pad" of scotchbrite red hot melt glued on the end. My machinist programed a grid pattern in our prototrack cnc mill & let her do all of the work. Cheating at its best! Looks good after black anodizing.


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## wayne.inspain

Hi Bill did you finish this project?  Your work on this has the signature of a master of his trade.


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## george wilson

Nice work,Bill. I am looking forward to seeing the finished machine. I have 3 die filers. The one I use the most is the Butterfly,as it is the easiest to set up. I have a beautiful "Duplex Die Filer",which is much more complicated. It can file DOWN into an opening,as in a box with no top. It is a beautiful piece of quality work! But takes much longer to set up. My third is a very old one that I converted to a jig saw.

I put a  variable speed motor on the Butterfly,as all these die filers run WAYYYY too fast,which REALLY hurts the files. The motor is only 1/2 H.P.,which is plenty strong enough. You can buy a little 1/2 H.P. motor with control from Penn State that would run a die filer well. It was intended for use in a mini lathe(The Penn State one). Quite cheap.


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## Billh50

Bill's die filer looks just as good, if not better, in person. I was at his place a couple weeks ago.


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## 34_40

Bill Gruby said:


> I just had a random thought -- what if we added a removable overarm and plunger style blade holder?? Maybe I should stop thinking.
> 
> "Billy G"


 
I'm just trying to learn what this filer is/does...  

Yep... complete newby here.. 

But as usual.  You're teaching me a lot Mr. Bill!


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## Downunder Bob

Another great project Bill. beautifully done as usual. I'm a little intrigued by the red markout dye, I've only ever seen and used blue.

Back in the early 60's when I was an apprentice toolmaker, we had a couple of die filers., one quite small table only about 6"dia.  The larger machine was a square table about 12-14" across. Everything was cast iron and steel, with bronze bushes.The tables were cut with grooves about 1/8th inch deep and about 1/2" wide both ways the lands were about1/2" wide, the idea was that filings would collect in the grooves and not get dragged across the table. The larger machine also had a small blower with a pipe that could be directed into the work to blow the filings away.

Both machines were enclosed and had a connecting rod on a crank pin for the drive, these machines were old but fairly quiet. Also just below the hole in the table a conical hat was fitted where the lower end of the file was attached, this deflected all filings out to a collecting tray that was tilted to one side and the filings all fed into a container which had to be emptied every day, thus keeping the filings out of the works. The smaller machine was a single speed, but the larger one was 3 speed affected by a simple pulley change at the back of the machine. These machines were in almost constant use.


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## Bill Gruby

Bob, back in my apprentice days we had a boss that was a bit weak with the sight of blood, any amount. We all used the red dykem so most blood did not show.

 "Billy G"


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## Downunder Bob

Fair enough, good solution, The red dye appeares to not be available here in downunder or if it is, I can't find a supplier. All the obvious suppliers only have the blue, I always thought it was the only one, until I saw the red on here. I guess it doesn't matter which one you use. It just was a question that needed an answer.


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## Bill Gruby

See if they can order it for you. It's called "Steel Red".

 "Billy G"


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## savarin

I've never used real marking out fluid only red and blue wide tip permanent marker pens.
Unfortunately cutting fluids etc dissolve the inks.
Is the dykem impervious to this?


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## Bill Gruby

Yes Charles, I've never had a problem with them.

 Billy  G"


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## Ray C

savarin said:


> I've never used real marking out fluid only red and blue wide tip permanent marker pens.
> Unfortunately cutting fluids etc dissolve the inks.
> Is the dykem impervious to this?





Bill Gruby said:


> Yes Charles, I've never had a problem with them.
> 
> Billy  G"



Dykem is good stuff.  I got very lucky and got a 1 quart bottle of the red color on eBay for $20.  Jumped on it like a duck on a June bug.   

Ray


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## Downunder Bob

Had a alook on Ebay yes Dykem is for sale at $20 a bottle but at $132 freight to downunder I'll pass, back to the marking pens. It would appear that no one in Aus sells Dykem products. There is a product called Dymark but they only have the traditional blue.


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## Firestopper

Billy,
I was late to the party, but am up to date on your cool build. Beautiful work sir.


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## george wilson

Aluminum is a very soft metal. The table made from it will soon be loaded with embedded chips of steel,cast iron,or anything harder than aluminum. I know this from personal experience using aluminum over 60 years ago when I only had wood working machinery at home to cut the aluminum. I'd advise at least cover the aluminum with a steel sheet screwed to it. Cast iron would be even better,but it would be a rare find to discover a piece of it that would be suitable. Or pay like it is gold to buy a piece of it from a distributor !


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