# Possible Purchase of PM-25MV



## devils4ever (Sep 11, 2019)

I've been looking hard at the PM-25MV mill. It's right size and cost for my needs.

I've been told there are possible issues with defective spindle bearings. Issues include: noisy, getting very hot, etc. Has anyone experienced this here?

Also, I was wondering if the DRO reduces the X, Y, and/or Z travel at all? If so, how much?

How does the Weiss/DROPROs mills compare to the PM? Are they the same except for the DRO?

I would have to move the mill from my garage into my basement down stairs with a 90 degree bend in it halfway down. Does the mill disassemble easily into pieces for transport? I would guess the table, base and column (with or without the head and motor)?

Thanks.


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## macardoso (Sep 11, 2019)

Don't own the 25MV but I own its near cousin from Grizzly. I can't speak for everyone here, but many (including myself) push these machines far beyond what was intended for them. If you are doing manual machining with this machine, I doubt you'll have any issues with the spindle bearings. If they are defective, you'll be covered under their warranty. I have come to see Precision Matthews as a step up in quality over other companies selling import machinery. 

Unsure about the DRO maybe someone else can chime in.

The mill does disassemble easily, although you'll be surprised what you can fit it through without taking it apart (just need two strong buddies). Be aware that every time you loosen the head and especially the column, you will be tramming it back into position. This isn't hard, I do it often enough, but it requires a decent indicator and some knowledge / patience.


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## shooter123456 (Sep 11, 2019)

I can't speak for everyone with a PM-25, but mine had no problems with the spindle bearings.  I bumped the speed up to 5500 RPM on the stock bearings and they would get warm, but not overheat.  The spindle was never too noisy for me.  As macardoso mentioned, the support is excellent, so you don't need to worry about defective parts.  Matt will get you taken care of if anything isn't up to par.  

I don't have the DRO so I can't answer anything about those.

Disassembly is easy.  I broke mine down to the bones to move it by myself and it took me only a few hours from start to finish.  The head separates from the Z axis slide easily, and the table and saddle come off with relatively little effort.  The head and table are in the 60 lb each range, so I estimate the column and base at 150 lbs ish by themselves.  Moveable by one person.  

I have had mine for a few years now and it is hardly recognizable now, but they are very capable machines.


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 11, 2019)

I have power feed on X, nothing other than as issued otherwise. I do have a temp sensor on the spindle. continuous use at 2,000 will raise the temperature to about 110 f. But that is unusual, to have it running that long. I expect CNC use would get it hotter than that. I've had nothing but good support for problems.

Yes, I'd buy another, should the need arise.

The installed DRO does not limit movement.


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## DarrylN (Sep 11, 2019)

I own the PM-25MV with DRO. Unlike some of these folks, I'm more what you might call a "casual" user.  I mostly do electronics and software, but occasionally need to machine some aluminum or brass for projects.  

I managed to move mine from the garage, up two steps into the main floor, then down a straight flight of stairs, and up on to a workbench...by myself, no disassembly. I used a come-along (aka manual cable hoist), web strap, compound block, and safety rope.  Used 2x4s for skids.


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## devils4ever (Sep 11, 2019)

The 90 degree turn on my stairs probably rules out using the method Darry used. I'll have to break it down into manageable pieces.

It's good to hear that the spindle bearings aren't a big issue.

Has anyone used the factory stand? Recommended?


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## codexmas (Sep 13, 2019)

Just ordered one of these bad boys, stoked to say the least!

I am picking it up at a depot so that I can disassemble it to get it into the basement, curious what tools I need to bring with me?


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## devils4ever (Sep 13, 2019)

codexmas said:


> Just ordered one of these bad boys, stoked to say the least!
> 
> I am picking it up at a depot so that I can disassemble it to get it into the basement, curious what tools I need to bring with me?



I would bring sockets, wrenches, screwdrivers, allen wrenches, vice grips, pliers. I would assume all are metric?

Did you order the factory stand?


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## codexmas (Sep 13, 2019)

Ordered the mill with the 3 axis DRO, ultra precision chuck and clamping kit.
I was planning on doing the DRO myself for less than half the cost, but really thought about it and like the idea of how useful it will be out of the gate already installed. Easily worth the extra cost to me.
I will be making my own X power feed as I have read reviews the one specific to this machine has a number of issues.


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## shooter123456 (Sep 13, 2019)

codexmas said:


> Just ordered one of these bad boys, stoked to say the least!
> 
> I am picking it up at a depot so that I can disassemble it to get it into the basement, curious what tools I need to bring with me?


Assuming our machines are identical (Safe bet that most things are the same, but designs change slightly over time) to disassemble you will need:

Separate head from Z axis slide:
-Socket wrench or standard wrench.  I don't recall what size it was, but there are 3 nuts holding the head to the slide.  It is a little bit tight under there so a large wrench or one of the adjustable ones may have trouble fitting.  If I recall correctly, the tool kit that came with my machine had the right size wrench for those nuts.

Separate table from saddle:
-Allen wrench (hex wrench, L wrench, whatever you want to call them), standard wrench, flat head screwdriver, and pliers.  You need to separate the leadscrew from the table.  The end supports are held on with socket head cap screws and have pins for locating (Need to pull straight out).  The handles are attached with a lock nut and have keys (thats what the pliers are for).  Before sliding the table off, you need to loosen the gib using the flat head screw driver.  Should slide right out once you do that.

If you need to take the column off the base, that is attached with 4 large cap screws.  You will need a 10mm allen wrench to unscrew those.  They are on tight, so you may also need a way to get more leverage.

That there should do it.


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## shooter123456 (Sep 13, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> I would bring sockets, wrenches, screwdrivers, allen wrenches, vice grips, pliers. I would assume all are metric?
> 
> Did you order the factory stand?


My machine has a nice mix of metric and imperial screws on it.  Seems like the small ones are 10x32 or 8x32.  Then there are a bunch of M6 and M8 screws, and then M12 screws holding the column to the base.


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## codexmas (Sep 13, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> Assuming our machines are identical (Safe bet that most things are the same, but designs change slightly over time) to disassemble you will need:
> 
> Separate head from Z axis slide:
> -Socket wrench or standard wrench.  I don't recall what size it was, but there are 3 nuts holding the head to the slide.  It is a little bit tight under there so a large wrench or one of the adjustable ones may have trouble fitting.  If I recall correctly, the tool kit that came with my machine had the right size wrench for those nuts.
> ...



Awesome! Thanks for the detailed info and not having to lug way more tools with me than needed.

I was thinking I could top the crate on it's side to fit into my car, disassembly seems like the safer choice


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## devils4ever (Sep 23, 2019)

Okay, I've been looking at shooter123456 CNC conversion with great interest and it got me thinking. I was planning on getting the DRO and possibly the X axis power feed which adds about $900 to the cost. For about that much more (I think), I could add CNC instead. I've been watching videos of CNC mills (the ELS one by Clough42 is great) and I have to say I'm very impressed. A lot complicated cuts done very easily. No more endless turning of the handwheels! I assume there's no need for a DRO on a CNC mill?

Since I'm an EE, I can handle the electronics/electrical part of the CNC conversion, but the mechanical part is more intimidating especially the ballscrews which seem to be the biggest issue on conversion. Milling all the needed parts would be tough since the mill would be disassembled.

So, this brings up a bunch of questions.

Has anyone used the ProCutCNC kit? It's a little pricey, but it would take out all/most of the mechanical issues. Are their ballscrews good?
Otherwise, where to get the ballscrews that require no modification?
Where to get a PC/motherboard that has a parallel port? Is just one port needed?
I'm assuming LinuxCNC to drive everything? I'm very familiar with Linux so this isn't an issue.
How much current needed for the power supplies? Unregulated power at ~48V?
Fusion 360 for CAD/CAM? Free for hobbyists? Hard to learn? I'm pretty good with Draftsight 2D.
Can the mill be used manually? I know there are no handwheels to turn, but can the X or Y axis be told to move 1.000" and stop? I assume it must since you need to find the edges of the work piece as reference.
Is speeding up the spindle really needed? I assume that's only to increase the feed rate? For slower feed rates, the spindle speed is okay?
Thanks.


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## shooter123456 (Sep 23, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> I assume there's no need for a DRO on a CNC mill?


You can use one to map your ballscrews and improve accuracy, but your machine controller will keep track of position and give you a psuedo DRO (based on commanded position, not necessarily true position).



devils4ever said:


> Milling all the needed parts would be tough since the mill would be disassembled.


You just need to make the conversion parts before you take it apart and put the ballscrews on 



devils4ever said:


> Has anyone used the ProCutCNC kit? It's a little pricey, but it would take out all/most of the mechanical issues. Are their ballscrews good?


I haven't used them so I can't comment on their quality, but I would say they are on the more expensive end.  Hard to say if their ballscrews are good because they don't advertise where they get them.  Assume inexpensive imported screws unless they show otherwise.  



devils4ever said:


> Otherwise, where to get the ballscrews that require no modification?


You will likely need to grind down the X nut for clearance under the table.  Otherwise, nothing should need to be modified.  I got some nice ground C5 screws last week and given the cost of the procut kit, if you decided to make it yourself, you could afford the same screws without spending more.



devils4ever said:


> Where to get a PC/motherboard that has a parallel port? Is just one port needed?


Integrated parallel ports aren't common anymore.  You can get a PCI-E to parallel port card though which will do the job just as well.  1 parallel port is needed, 2 may become necessary depending on how many other things you want the computer to control (ie limit switch inputs, pneumatic drawbar, 4th axis, spindle, encoders, etc).  If you get a motherboard with multiple PCI-E slots, you can add on another card later.  



devils4ever said:


> I'm assuming LinuxCNC to drive everything? I'm very familiar with Linux so this isn't an issue


That is what I use and I am very happy with it.  Issues are few and far between and it is relatively easy to customize if you are familiar with linux already.  



devils4ever said:


> How much current needed for the power supplies? Unregulated power at ~48V?


I used a 7.3 amp 48v supply for mine and it was sufficient.  



devils4ever said:


> Fusion 360 for CAD/CAM? Free for hobbyists? Hard to learn? I'm pretty good with Draftsight 2D.


Fusion360 is free for hobbyists and shops that make less than $100,000/year.  I started with AutoCAD and found Fusion360 to be far more user friendly and relatively easy to use.  It takes a little while to get familiar with it, but once you are, make complex models isn't particularly difficult. 



devils4ever said:


> Can the mill be used manually? I know there are no handwheels to turn, but can the X or Y axis be told to move 1.000" and stop? I assume it must since you need to find the edges of the work piece as reference.


Yes.  With linuxcnc you can jog using a keyboard.  The feedrate is adjustable and you can switch between incremental and continuous feeding.  The increments are adjustable so you can have it move for example .1" with every button push, or crank that down to .0005" while  you are touching off your work.  You can also use MDI which is where you would type a single line of G code for it to run.  Something like "G01 F50 X1".  If you are using relative positioning, that will move the X axis 1" in the positive direction at a rate of 50 inches/minute.  If you are in absolute positioning mode, that will move the X axis to the position 1" in the positive direction from the zero point.  You can also get a manual pulse generator (Basically just a fancy handheld controller) that has a wheel on it that can be used the same as a handwheel would.  



devils4ever said:


> Is speeding up the spindle really needed? I assume that's only to increase the feed rate? For slower feed rates, the spindle speed is okay?


Absolutely necessary, no.  Nice to have for a variety of reasons, yes.  Higher spindle speeds can give you better surfaces finishes and let you run it faster.  It also helps you get the spindle up into the SFM ranges that carbide really shines.  The other reason for higher spindle speeds is to help it run smaller cutters better.  For example, a .125" end mill running at the stock max speed of 2500 rpm is only moving at 82 SFM.  One of the speeds and feeds tables out there lists a minimum speed of 200 SFM.  It will still work below that range, but it isn't ideal.  Even just doubling the speed makes a huge difference in cycle times and surface finishes.  When I started, I was just really excited to see the mill cutting stuff all by itself, but shortly thereafter I started thinking "Ok this is really slow, lets get things cooking a little faster."


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## macardoso (Sep 23, 2019)

I'm another G0704/PM-25 CNC guy. I've done a couple conversions and can offer another opinion. My system is:

Mach 4
Ethernet Smoothstepper
Allen Bradley Ultra 3000 AC Servo drives and motors
Industrial PC (no parallel port)
Custom built Hoss-Machine-Style motor mounts
Roton ballscrews




devils4ever said:


> Has anyone used the ProCutCNC kit? It's a little pricey, but it would take out all/most of the mechanical issues. Are their ballscrews good?



Haven't used so cannot comment directly. If you want to save money and have extra time (plus access to machines), making your own conversion can be fun and cost friendly. On the other hand, if you have the cash to spend on it, buying a kit will save you weeks to months of work to build your own.



devils4ever said:


> Otherwise, where to get the ballscrews that require no modification?



Several online sources (Chinese eBay) offer end machining services. Some even have the Hoss machine style screws premade. Just ask them to quote you for the extra machining if needed. I would suggest buying decent screws. I have Roton brand (USA) and they're not good. Just never meant for high accuracy motion, very sloppy.



devils4ever said:


> Where to get a PC/motherboard that has a parallel port? Is just one port needed?



I would strongly suggest using a motion controller. Most use Ethernet, but you can also get USB ones. They offload a lot of the processing requirements from the PC and give you better quality motion control plus tons of IO.



devils4ever said:


> I'm assuming LinuxCNC to drive everything? I'm very familiar with Linux so this isn't an issue.



I'm a long time Mach 3 / Mach 4 user. I paid the $200 for Mach 4 hobby and have absolutely loved it. It is good to use right out of the box, but offers a ton of structure to allow you to create your own functionality and screens. I used it to develop a serial interface to my servo drives. Learning curve is a bit steep if you aren't well versed in object oriented programming, but 90% of people don't need to write any code.

My Mach 4 is running on Windows 10.



devils4ever said:


> How much current needed for the power supplies? Unregulated power at ~48V?



Pick your motors first, then select the drive which will match the motor. Finally add up all the drives and that will size the PSU. Get close to the max voltage of the stepper drive.



devils4ever said:


> Can the mill be used manually? I know there are no handwheels to turn, but can the X or Y axis be told to move 1.000" and stop? I assume it must since you need to find the edges of the work piece as reference.



Yes, you can use the keyboard to drive it around, manually execute code line by line (MDI), or install a Manual Pulse Generator (MPG) - basically an electronic handwheel.



devils4ever said:


> Is speeding up the spindle really needed? I assume that's only to increase the feed rate? For slower feed rates, the spindle speed is okay?



What Shooter said. Mine runs at 5000 rpm max. Mostly useful for tools 1/4" and smaller, especially in soft materials (aluminum)


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## macardoso (Sep 23, 2019)

If you want, there may be some content in my build log that could be useful. This is very centric on Mach 4 so if you like the LinuxCNC route then this will be less applicable.









						G0704 CNC AC Servo Rebuild (Picture Heavy)
					

Hi All,  About 5 years ago I completed a CNC conversion of a Grizzly G0704 milling machine. Like everyone at that time I chose to go with the Hoss Machine style conversion as there were not many options on the market. I was not comfortable designing my own system at the time since I was just...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




The one downside of CNC over manual is that you cannot "feel" how the machine is cutting. This will require you to learn to calculate your cutting speeds ahead of time and listen to how the machine runs. This really only applies if you plan on doing really basic work on the machine that has no reason to be CNC'd

EDIT: I should say that the link above is definitely on the far end of the spectrum for complicated conversions. You can get away with 3 stepper drives and a power supply (which is how I started)


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## devils4ever (Sep 24, 2019)

Well, a quick search of *ProCutCNC *has inconclusive results. Some positive, some very negative. I see that *arizonavideo *is selling conversion kits for the PM-25MV that seem highly regarded. This might be a path. I'm not sure I can handle modifying the ballscrews on my mini-lathe. Does anyone have the drawings needed to order from eBay? However, I think I prefer buying a kit with all (most) machining is done.

I assume LinuxCNC only works with parallel ports? Does it support Ethernet Smoothstepper?

Is the motion controller supported by LinuxCNC?

Is your 48V supply linear? Is it regulated? Is there one for each stepper?

Thanks for the info on the Manual Pulse Generator. How/where does this connect to?

I would like to start slow and build up if necessary. Spindle speed up might be in the future.

Thanks to all!


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## shooter123456 (Sep 24, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Does anyone have the drawings needed to order from eBay?


I just ordered 2 1605 double nut screws with BK12 end machining, one 750mm long, the other 350mm long.  Then a 2005 double nut screw, 600mm long and BK15 end machining.  



devils4ever said:


> I'm not sure I can handle modifying the ballscrews on my mini-lathe.


You don't need to modify them with the lathe.  The only thing that would be needed is grinding down the X axis nut with a bench grinder to clear the table.  When you order them, you specify the machining done on the ends and they will arrive pretty close to ready to go.  



devils4ever said:


> I assume LinuxCNC only works with parallel ports? Does it support Ethernet Smoothstepper?


LinuxCNC can be used with ethernet, but not the smoothstepper.  LinuxCNC turns your computer into the motion controller so you don't need a second motion controller.  



devils4ever said:


> Is your 48V supply linear? Is it regulated? Is there one for each stepper?


I don't know for the first 2 questions, but the third, 1 power supply for the whole system.  



devils4ever said:


> Thanks for the info on the Manual Pulse Generator. How/where does this connect to?


Typically it will be a USB and connect directly to your control PC.


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## macardoso (Sep 24, 2019)

Not an expert on LinuxCNC so You'll need to defer to Shooter for better info.



devils4ever said:


> Does anyone have the drawings needed to order from eBay? However, I think I prefer buying a kit with all (most) machining is done.



I used the CNC conversion kit plans from Hoss machine (www.migration.G0704.com/G0704_dvdrom_download.html). Looks like his price is $65 nowadays. Truth be told, there is nothing special about his plans and I have redesigned all of the hardware over the years except for the ballscrews. The ballscrews can be purchased pre-machined here. I think those are just standard import quality screws, but better than Roton . I've heard rumors that many of the conversion kits can arrive much later than expect since people are making them at home, but maybe that situation has improved.



devils4ever said:


> I assume LinuxCNC only works with parallel ports? Does it support Ethernet Smoothstepper?
> 
> ...
> 
> Is the motion controller supported by LinuxCNC?



After a short bit of research, the ESS is *not *supported by LinuxCNC, but many other I/O and motion control boards are (see here). Mach 4 has pushed for everything to be run by externals boards (which I am a fan of) and there are many options on the market. For stepper based systems, you don't need high pulse rates, so most motion controllers are fine. As you need higher step rates, then your selection of motion controllers dwindles.



devils4ever said:


> Is your 48V supply linear? Is it regulated? Is there one for each stepper?



I have always used one Switch Mode Power Supply shared between all my axes. There are calculators online to figure it out, but if you have three 4A motors, you do not need a full 12A PSU.



devils4ever said:


> Thanks for the info on the Manual Pulse Generator. How/where does this connect to?



Some MPG's connect over USB or wireless. There are handy, but have a lag associated with the connection and drivers. I opted to buy a hardwired unit which I connect to 15 or so I/O points in my machine cabinet. These I/O are on my motion control board.



devils4ever said:


> I would like to start slow and build up if necessary. Spindle speed up might be in the future.



Good choice. If you do go the CNC route, you'll get 80% of the benefit by doing 20% of the effort that others have done. From there it is up to you how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

Don't forget to have fun!

Mike


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## erikmannie (Sep 25, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> The 90 degree turn on my stairs probably rules out using the method Darry used. I'll have to break it down into manageable pieces.
> 
> It's good to hear that the spindle bearings aren't a big issue.
> 
> Has anyone used the factory stand? Recommended?


I have the factory stand, and I am very happy with it. I like to keep my mill goodies in the cabinet under the mill.


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## AlanB (Sep 25, 2019)

I got some boards from Mesa Electronics to use with LinuxCNC instead of a regular parallel port. They have FPGA based pulse generators instead of depending on software timing. I haven't bought the mill yet so haven't configured/tested it all yet. Need to make space for the mill to land first...

When I bought my lathe I picked it up at the depot using a small utility trailer. They forklift it onto the trailer, and I used cargo straps to hold it in place. Then I can back the trailer very close to where it goes, and disassemble into components or lift with friends or engine lift. Works out really well.


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## devils4ever (Sep 25, 2019)

shooter: Okay, I think I got it. The 1605 is the diameter (16mm) and the 05 is the pitch (5mm)? The BK12 and BK15 are some standard for the ends? C7 is the precision level?

I've read that double ballnuts take more space and can limit the range. Is this true here? Should I stick with single?

Grinding them down should be no problem.

Mike: Is the G0704 kit the same as the PM-25MV kit? Will it work here?

I've been looking at the Fusion 360 CAD and CAM software. There's definitely a learning curve there!

Can double-ended stepper motors be used so that a handle can be placed on the free end to make it work manually?

I'm starting to understand all this CNC conversion stuff.


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## macardoso (Sep 25, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Okay, I think I got it. The 1605 is the diameter (16mm) and the 05 is the pitch (5mm)? The BK12 and BK15 are some standard for the ends? C7 is the precision level?



Bingo. you got it. The BK code sets the bearing and thread diameters and lengths. They're setup to match commercial ballscrew end supports, but you can also design your own. C7 is an accuracy grade which specifies how many thou of lead error per foot of travel (if you were to look at any 12 inch section of screw, the lead error would not deviate more than .000x" from ideal). 




devils4ever said:


> I've read that double ballnuts take more space and can limit the range. Is this true here? Should I stick with single?



Double ballnuts chew up space but reduce backlash. I would say backlash contributes 10x the issues in hobby machines compared to screw lead error. I would definitely try to get the double nuts to work.



devils4ever said:


> Grinding them down should be no problem.



Careful about getting dust in your screws. 



devils4ever said:


> Is the G0704 kit the same as the PM-25MV kit? Will it work here?



The machines are very similar, however even between two identical machines, there will be manufacturing differences. Expect to do some light hand fitting or measuring/modification of the design.



devils4ever said:


> I've been looking at the Fusion 360 CAD and CAM software. There's definitely a learning curve there!



Fusion is great and has an amazing community. You can also get Autodesk Inventor on free 3 year licenses if you download the educational version (no restrictions or watermarks). Inventor is kinda the big brother of Fusion. More used in industry, smaller hobby community.



devils4ever said:


> Can double-ended stepper motors be used so that a handle can be placed on the free end to make it work manually?



Can it? Yes. Do you want to? No.   Ballscrews have very little friction compared to ACME screws that the machines ship with. If you try to cut without the stepper motors powered on, the cutting forces will push the other axes around. You can get around this by locking them, but it just isn't very useful. I had them on my machine for 3 years and never used them once. Spend the effort getting yourself setup with a good MPG.


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## shooter123456 (Sep 25, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Okay, I think I got it. The 1605 is the diameter (16mm) and the 05 is the pitch (5mm)? The BK12 and BK15 are some standard for the ends? C7 is the precision level?


Correct.  Except the C7 part.  I believe C7 refers to accuracy, not precision.  



devils4ever said:


> I've read that double ballnuts take more space and can limit the range. Is this true here? Should I stick with single?


They are longer when there are 2 nuts, but you won't lose any travel.  Stick with double nuts because they are preloaded against each other to reduce backlash.  The Y axis is the only place where it is close, but even with the long double nuts I got with the ground screws, there is no loss to travel.  



devils4ever said:


> Mike: Is the G0704 kit the same as the PM-25MV kit? Will it work here?


The machines are similar, but different enough that they can't be considered interchangeable.  The way the Y axis nut attaches to the saddle on the G0704 is with a slot cut in the saddle while the PM25 uses a round boss that feeds up into a corresponding hole in the saddle and screwed in from the top.  On the X axis, the G0704 also uses a slot, while the PM25 has a machined area with 2 threaded holes where the ballscrew holder is attached.  The Z axis is probably closest on the two, but I would not bet on them being close enough to be used interchangeably.  



devils4ever said:


> Can double-ended stepper motors be used so that a handle can be placed on the free end to make it work manually?


I wouldn't.  You would need to lock the axes manually that aren't being used, and ballscrews don't work great manually.  It is easy enough to control the machine manually through the software that there really is no need.


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## devils4ever (Oct 14, 2019)

At this point, I'm thinking about getting the mill with the DRO and playing/learning with it manually for a while to get used to it. Then, switch to CNC.

I just need to sell my wood shaper to make room for it and to raise some cash.


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## Bill Kahn (Oct 15, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> ...  I bumped the speed up to 5500 RPM ...


Can you describe how you did this speed “bump?”  Or give a pointer to where it has been described?  Thanks. -Bill


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## shooter123456 (Oct 15, 2019)

Bill Kahn said:


> Can you describe how you did this speed “bump?”  Or give a pointer to where it has been described?  Thanks. -Bill


I made new pulleys, removed the quill assembly, and made a plate to hold a bearing to support the top of the spindle.  

I feel like that sounds a lot more complicated than it was, because it was just making 3 new parts and removing 1 old one.  Not much to it.


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## devils4ever (Oct 18, 2019)

Okay, I did it! I just placed my order and decided to get the non-DRO version since I'm fairly certain I'll be adding CNC. Now, the wait begins....


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## devils4ever (Oct 19, 2019)

So, I've been thinking about how to get this thing in my basement and on top of the stand (I ordered the factory stand). I can do some disassembly if needed, but would prefer a minimal amount.

So, based on DarryIN's post, I'm thinking I can use a winch of some type and 2X4's to move it up and down the stairs (maybe, after removing the table). I see both types of winches are available: come-along style and the chain hoist style. I've used a come-along before and wasn't impressed. My winch broke trying to pull my car out of a small snowbank years ago. Can the chain hoist style be used on a ramp? I usually only see them lifting vertically.


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## matthewsx (Oct 19, 2019)

You're going with the PM-25 right? At only 275lbs I'd just call up one of my buddies and take it downstairs with a furniture dolly.


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## devils4ever (Oct 19, 2019)

Yes, that's a possibility. We still have to lift it onto the stand.


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## matthewsx (Oct 19, 2019)

Okay, two buddies

If you have strong beams overhead in the basement you can use a chain-fall, otherwise an engine hoist but it might be just as much hassle getting that into the basement. 

General consensus is disassembly and cleaning is a good thing for all new machines so maybe take the table and head off. I wouldn't be intimidated by the process, there are plenty of folks on here willing to answer any questions you have. Plus, if you're going to convert to CNC you'll have it apart many, many times anyway.

Cheers,

John


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## devils4ever (Oct 19, 2019)

That's true. Disassembly was my first thought, but it's a little intimidating taking apart a brand new machine! Hopefully, I can get the table and head off and on easily. I'm assuming taking the column off is more involved since it has to be trammed again?

Taking the table off requires removing the gibs? Remove motor before removing head?


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## matthewsx (Oct 19, 2019)

I'm sure someone will chime in with details soon, pretty sure you're not the first to move one of these machines into the basement. Have you asked Matt about it?

There's a thread on tramming your machine going on now if you want to jump in.









						Tips on tramming the nod of benchtop mill PM25MV
					

I have a PM25MV mill.  I'm using Edge industries tramming tool. It goes in the spindle and has 2 indicators on both sides. I calibrated it until I got it to about .0002  I trammed the X axis and got to around around .001. Good enough for me.   Now it's time to do The Z axis and it is off by .006...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




John


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## wrmiller (Oct 19, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> That's true. Disassembly was my first thought, but it's a little intimidating taking apart a brand new machine! Hopefully, I can get the table and head off and on easily. I'm assuming taking the column off is more involved since it has to be trammed again?
> 
> Taking the table off requires removing the gibs? Remove motor before removing head?



You're going to have to tram the column anyway, once you get it to where you want it. And removing four bolts is a lot easier/faster than removing the head. IMO of course.

Once the column and head were off the base, I could carry/lift the base onto the toolbox where it was going to live by wrapping a beach towel around the table and playing human fork lift. Same for the head/column. But I was younger then, and only had to carry the pieces about 20 feet or so.

If I had to move it any distance, or down some stairs I'd have a friend help.


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## devils4ever (Oct 20, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> I'm sure someone will chime in with details soon, pretty sure you're not the first to move one of these machines into the basement. Have you asked Matt about it?
> 
> There's a thread on tramming your machine going on now if you want to jump in.
> 
> ...



I have asked Matt about disassembly for moving. He said some find it easy and some not so much. I guess it depends.

I'm wondering if I should have the delivery driver place the box on something like a hand-truck or dolly.

Thanks for the link on tramming.


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## matthewsx (Oct 20, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> I have asked Matt about disassembly for moving. He said some find it easy and some not so much. I guess it depends.
> 
> I'm wondering if I should have the delivery driver place the box on something like a hand-truck or dolly.
> 
> Thanks for the link on tramming.



I suspect those who find it hard aren't on this forum asking about it before the machine even shows up 

I like the advice about just separating at  the column, it does seem like the easiest way to get it done and back together with the minimum hassle. If you have a furniture dolly or stout hand truck, and the driver doesn't want to get it into your garage for you that would be helpful. I have a Harbor Freight hand truck with pneumatic tires 









						600 lb. Capacity Hand Truck
					

Amazing deals on this 600Lb Capacity Hand Truck at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




					www.harborfreight.com
				




that would probably do the job if the unit was split in two pieces. I would likely use a packing blanket and ratchet strap to hold those somewhat awkward pieces to the hand truck and have a friend help so someone is on top and someone below to guide and control going down the stairs. Once in the basement, put the base/table on it's stand and attach the column. It should be doable with two reasonably strong people.

Of course that's just how I would do it, you will have to figure out what will work for you and I'm definitely not responsible for any possible bad outcomes. But, I suspect it will be easier than you're thinking it will be.


Cheers,

john


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## devils4ever (Oct 20, 2019)

I guess I'm overthinking it. I have a pneumatic tire hand truck myself bought from HD decades ago. Still good. I'm sure all will be good. I can ask my contractor friend to help. He's in good shape!  

I ordered the optional stand, collet set, clamping kit, and UHP keyless chuck. I held off on the vise no knowing which one to get. I see Kurt is highly regarded, but I'm not sure I can justify the price. I'm not a pro. I'm thinking Shars or something similar. I assume 4" size will be ideal?

I have some end-mills from my Sherline mill. They go up to 3/8". I'm thinking of getting some more in the 1/2" and 3/4" size. Also, a fly-cutter and boring head will be needed. Any suggestions?

I placed my Sherline Mill on eBay and got an offer within 30 minutes! I guess quality sells. Or, I should have asked for more! Still have the wood shaper for sale if anyone is interested!


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## matthewsx (Oct 20, 2019)

Yes, you will have to see what makes sense when you get the machine but if your friend is a contractor I'm sure he's had to move bigger stuff.

As for the vise I bought a Shars 3" for my CNC mill/drill project, it fits well but there are lots of replacement jaws for the 4" not so much for 3". They should have a suitable flycutter for you too, I went with one from littlemachineshop.com since I can only go up to 3/8" shank on my ER16 spindle. Don't know how good your machine will handle a 3/4" end mill, probably depends on the material.

That thread is here if you want to read it:









						4" vise - help choosing the right one
					

So, I'm at the point where my CNC mill/drill project is just about ready to start making actual parts and I think I need to buy a 4" milling vise to replace the hardware store drill press vise I've been using to test. My table is flat cast aluminum and I have some more cast pieces that I think...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Cheers, 

John


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## devils4ever (Oct 21, 2019)

According to PM, the max end mill size is 3/4". Like you stated, I guess it depends on the material, but I do mostly Aluminum.


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## shooter123456 (Oct 21, 2019)

A 4" vise is about ideal for this size machine.  I can fit 3 on the table pretty easily, but a 4th wouldn't be out of the question if they were all the flat sided ones.  







Sideways, they fit pretty darn perfectly too.  On mine, the T slots are spaced just right to bolt it down.





For standard end mills, I don't go any bigger than 3/8".  I use some larger insert end mills, but those I keep the DOC shallow and increase the width a little bit.  The larger end mills start getting expensive fast and I don't see the benefit for a machine as small as ours.

I have an inexpensive no name boring head and a tormach arbor for it.  It works just fine, but I wouldn't bother with the arbor if you aren't planning to CNC or go with tormach tooling eventually.


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## devils4ever (Oct 21, 2019)

shooter123456: Do you use both conventional mill vises and CNC vises? 

The CNC vises are narrower which allow them to be placed on their side? I think! Which do you recommend?


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## macardoso (Oct 21, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> You're going with the PM-25 right? At only 275lbs I'd just call up one of my buddies and take it downstairs with a furniture dolly.



That's what I did! If you want to back it up with something so it doesn't get away from you, you can use a rock climbing belay device and a length of rope.

I put a 2x4 across the doorway and placed this device on the 2x4 with the rope fed through and tied to the dolly. It is a friction device so 1 person can easily control the lowering of 1000 lbs. 



			https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en/web-specials/atc-sport-BD620077_cfg.html#start=7


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## shooter123456 (Oct 21, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> shooter123456: Do you use both conventional mill vises and CNC vises?
> 
> The CNC vises are narrower which allow them to be placed on their side? I think! Which do you recommend?


I do use both and I prefer the CNC ones.  The conventional ones cause you to lose some useable work area because of the location of the holes for the hold down screws.  It is much easier to maximize the work area using the CNC vises since you can clamp them down anywhere along the side.  I don't ever use them on their side though and the ones I have are inexpensive so I don't know that I would trust them to be squared up on the side.


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## macardoso (Oct 21, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> According to PM, the max end mill size is 3/4". Like you stated, I guess it depends on the material, but I do mostly Aluminum.


My rule of thumb for this size machine is 1/4" in steel and 3/8" in aluminum. I have cut 1/2" in steel and 3/4" in aluminum but it doesn't like it as much.


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## wrmiller (Oct 21, 2019)

macardoso said:


> My rule of thumb for this size machine is 1/4" in steel and 3/8" in aluminum. I have cut 1/2" in steel and 3/4" in aluminum but it doesn't like it as much.



When I had my PM25 I used mostly 1/8", 1/4", and 3/8" in pretty much everything. If using a 3/8" in steel I used a rougher for stock removal, as it's easier on the machine. I think I had one or two 1/2" cutters then, but seldom used them.


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## macardoso (Oct 21, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> The CNC vises are narrower which allow them to be placed on their side? I think! Which do you recommend?


 I like the CNC vises for their flexibility and compact size. I have used my vises on their sides, but maybe only 1 in 50 parts that I make. It helps a lot if you have a tall part and don't have the needed Z clearance.


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## devils4ever (Oct 23, 2019)

Well, I've been thinking long and hard about vises and decided to treat myself and my new *PM-25MV* and cry once and buy a *Kurt DX4*. The best deal I could see with shipping is from *Ritchie Industrial Sales*. Anyone use them before? Are they reputable? *All Industrial Tool Supply* is a close second.

Also, I see my status on PM is "Completed". Does that mean it's ready to ship?


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## codexmas (Oct 23, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Well, I've been thinking long and hard about vises and decided to treat myself and my new *PM-25MV* and cry once and buy a *Kurt DX4*. The best deal I could see with shipping is from *Ritchie Industrial Sales*. Anyone use them before? Are they reputable? *All Industrial Tool Supply* is a close second.
> 
> Also, I see my status on PM is "Completed". Does that mean it's ready to ship?


I bought the Shars 440V and am quite happy with it, not ready for the Kurt plunge yet I guess


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## carmad (Oct 24, 2019)

Take a look at Glacern, I have a 5" on my PM940 very happy with it. I think they have Hallowen special , free shipping on vises.


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## devils4ever (Oct 24, 2019)

Yeah, I was on the fence and was initially thinking about the Shars. I'm sure it would be more than adequate, but decided to spend some more cash and this way I can't blame the vise only myself! I wound up ordering it from All Industrial Tool Supply which had free shipping.

My order has shipped! I wonder how long it will take to get here? From Pittsburgh area to NW NJ? I'm hoping it comes Friday so I can use the weekend to disassemble, move, reassemble, and set it up.


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## wrmiller (Oct 24, 2019)

The last time I was vise shopping, I managed to trip over a member here who was selling a Kurt D50. Every now and then I just get lucky.

Looking forward to a setup/progress report and your initial impressions when you get your new toy...err...machine.


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## shooter123456 (Oct 24, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Yeah, I was on the fence and was initially thinking about the Shars. I'm sure it would be more than adequate, but decided to spend some more cash and this way I can't blame the vise only myself! I wound up ordering it from All Industrial Tool Supply which had free shipping.
> 
> My order has shipped! I wonder how long it will take to get here? From Pittsburgh area to NW NJ? I'm hoping it comes Friday so I can use the weekend to disassemble, move, reassemble, and set it up.


When my PM-25 shipped from Pittsburgh to central NC, it shipped on a Wednesday afternoon and arrived Thursday evening.  It took a little more than 24 hours.


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## devils4ever (Oct 24, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> When my PM-25 shipped from Pittsburgh to central NC, it shipped on a Wednesday afternoon and arrived Thursday evening.  It took a little more than 24 hours.



I just got a call from the shipping company and they are delivering it on Monday. So, I'm a lot closer than you and it's taking a lot longer!

They asked about street access and I told them no problem. However, my paved driveway is inclined. I'm hoping they can bring it into my garage. Do they have a powered forklift or something?


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## shooter123456 (Oct 24, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> I just got a call from the shipping company and they are delivering it on Monday. So, I'm a lot closer than you and it's taking a lot longer!
> 
> They asked about street access and I told them no problem. However, my paved driveway is inclined. I'm hoping they can bring it into my garage. Do they have a powered forklift or something?


I had to get the liftgate delivery service since I do not have a loading dock or forklift.  The guy just used a pallet jack to pull it onto the liftgate, lowered it down, walked it down the driveway (Slight incline) and plop it down in the center of my garage.  I would anticipate your case being similar but I obviously can't say for sure.


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## Aaron_W (Oct 24, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> I just got a call from the shipping company and they are delivering it on Monday. So, I'm a lot closer than you and it's taking a lot longer!
> 
> They asked about street access and I told them no problem. However, my paved driveway is inclined. I'm hoping they can bring it into my garage. Do they have a powered forklift or something?



The specs say these are only about 300lbs, unless you have a really steep driveway that shouldn't be an issue for 2 people with a hand truck. I bought one of these garden carts last year at Tractor Supply. They claim a weight capacity of 800lbs. It has proven quite handy for moving new equipment into my basement shop. I haven't tested it to capacity but I have had 400lbs+ of concrete sacks on it and it didn't fold in half. Do ensure the tires are properly inflated before use though, personal experience on that one. 

800lb Garden Cart

I also have a heavy duty hand truck, but the garden cart works better for odd shaped loads like machinery.


For a fly cutter Sherline makes a nice insert fly cutter, and they have just started to stock one with a straight shank.

Sherline insert fly cutter with 1/2" straight shank


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## mcdanlj (Oct 24, 2019)

shooter123456 said:


> When my PM-25 shipped from Pittsburgh to central NC, it shipped on a Wednesday afternoon and arrived Thursday evening.  It took a little more than 24 hours.



My PM-30 shipped around 5PM from PA to NC (I'm close to shooter) and it was out for delivery by something like 5AM the next morning, arriving at something like 10AM. So less than 20 hours door-to-door. I was flabbergasted. I got PM's 5-inch vise with the PM-30 and have been satisfied.



devils4ever said:


> However, my paved driveway is inclined. I'm hoping they can bring it into my garage. Do they have a powered forklift or something?





Aaron_W said:


> The specs say these are only about 300lbs, unless you have a really steep driveway that shouldn't be an issue for 2 people with a hand truck.



Utlimately, you can call them and ask. Typically, they will have a pallet jack when you get liftgate delivery. If they don't, then if you have some furniture dollys you can probably tilt it up onto them and roll it up as long as the slope isn't steep enough to be dangerous, and you don't tip if over and damage it or yourself. Otherwise, you can uncrate and disassemble it at the road side and carry it in one piece at a time.

300 lbs on a pallet jack or furniture dollys seems manageable to me. My idea of "manageable" is probably a bit off-kilter though, since I brought a 1500 lb 1440 lathe across the lawn around my house and into the basement with only two friends.

Whenever I have friends helping with jobs like this I preach a sermon first about how this isn't worth a trip to the ER, please don't be a hero. Once, a friend remembered the sermon as he was starting to try to catch a heavy load and got out of the way in time, which has encouraged me to keep preaching. ☺


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## mcdanlj (Oct 26, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Well, I've been thinking long and hard about vises and decided to treat myself and my new *PM-25MV* and cry once and buy a *Kurt DX4*.





mcdanlj said:


> I got PM's 5-inch vise with the PM-30 and have been satisfied.



You're smart. I discovered that the indicating slots in my PM 5" vice are about 1/3mm out of square to the vice jaws. I'll work around it, and grumble each time I suppose...


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## devils4ever (Oct 29, 2019)

My mill arrived late yesterday afternoon! The driver was able to back up into my inclined driveway without issue and placed it in my garage.


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## devils4ever (Oct 29, 2019)

Then, the fun began. Taking it apart on the garage floor was exactly like I was expecting. Not easy.

Bringing the stand into my basement was probably the easiest part. It wasn't that heavy with my hand truck. I placed it on my Vega mobile base (reused from my wood shaper). But, don't worry, this is the best design for a mobile base. The entire load rests securely on the floor, not wheels. The rear wheels are only in play when the front is lifted with a special handle.






I was able to uncrate the beast. After some effort and slight issues, I was able to remove the table. Getting the left side table plate off proved a little challenging. It didn't want to come off. Upon removal, the gib popped out. How does this go back in? There is a slight notch in it. I'm assuming this notch goes to the right and down? Is that correct? I also had to re-position the little X axis indicator to remove the table. The table is heavy. It has to be at least 80 lbs I would guess. It weighs at least twice my entire Sherline mill weighed! Hand carried to basement.






Next, came the decision of whether to remove the column or the head. After some thought, I decided the head would be easier to remove and would allow the base and column to be moved strapped to my hand truck. I got my multi-function ladder as a support (hold 375 lbs) and attached a 1 ton hoist to the head. I wanted to remove the bulk of the weight while I loosened the 3 head bolts. This proved easier said than done. The bolts are hard to see and access sitting on the floor. It turns out the nuts were imperial, not metric and a box wrench was the tool to use, not a socket. I also removed the bolts holding the plastic shield and arm to not damage them. After the bolts were out, I pulled the head off and guided it down onto 2X4 wood placed on the base to avoid damaging it. Hand carried to basement.






Finally, I was able to strap the base and column to my hand truck and get it into the basement. It was a challenge! This beast is heavy. Up and down stairs with 90 degree turns pushed me close to the limit. But, it rest nicely in my basement now.






So, tonight I hope to get the base and column placed and bolted to my stand. I plan on using my hoist to lift it and wheel the base under the it. Same for the head. The table will be last, of course. I want to remove all the grease on the table first. Any ideas what to use?

Whew! Over 3 hours of effort to get to this point. I knew it would not be easy and I was right!


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## shooter123456 (Oct 29, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> There is a slight notch in it. I'm assuming this notch goes to the right and down? Is that correct? I also had to re-position the little X axis indicator to remove the table. The table is heavy. It has to be at least 80 lbs I would guess. It weighs at least twice my entire Sherline mill weighed! Hand carried to basement.


On mine, there is one side of the gib that has the snowflake scraping pattern in it.  That is the side that faces outward toward the opposing dovetail.  The little notch will fit in with one of the gib screws.  If I remember correctly, the notch goes on the right side.  If your table is the same as mine, it weighs 66.7 lbs 



devils4ever said:


> I want to remove all the grease on the table first. Any ideas what to use?


I think the only thing that would get the grease off for me was acetone.  Isopropyl alcohol and mineral spirits wouldn't touch it.  

It might be just the pictures and lighting, but wow the paint on your column and Z axis slide look really nice.  Much better than mine looked!  I love new machine days!


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## devils4ever (Oct 29, 2019)

I emailed PM and got an almost instant response. Here it is:
*The gib is tapered. The thick part should go on the right. The screw head will fit in the notched out area.*

As far as cleaning:
*We normally use WD-40 to clean the rust preventative off. Spray some on and wait a few minutes before wiping off. If you have stubborn spots, you can use a plastic scraper to help. A metal scraper will scratch the ways.*


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## codexmas (Oct 29, 2019)

Great stuff! You are in for a ride, it's quite the machine, very happy with my PM25.

Be sure to keep the X and Y gibs labeled with sharpie or in a marked container, they are not interchangeable as I found out...
And yes, the notch goes on the right side, and only fits in one way due to it being a parallelogram.

If you haven't seen y post about my setup process please take a look, I provide a link to a decent video I found on adjusting the gibs:








						PM-25 Setup getting there
					

Been unable to get to the thing I wanted to address on the machine for a number of reasons. Finally had time last night to get at it and action those plans!   First couple of things were that when I reassembled the X table after transporting it home in my car I didn't pay any attention to the...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Be sure to carefully align the X axis lead screw before tightening down the nut bolts, it's too bad there is no way to access it when the table is mounted.

Mineral spirits worked really well for me, I used a brass bristle brush to get into all the cracks. Took a few rounds of wiping it all and repeating to get it all though.

Have fun and keep us posted!


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## devils4ever (Oct 29, 2019)

codexmas said:


> Be sure to keep the X and Y gibs labeled with sharpie or in a marked container, they are not interchangeable as I found out...
> And yes, the notch goes on the right side, and only fits in one way due to it being a parallelogram.
> 
> If you haven't seen y post about my setup process please take a look, I provide a link to a decent video I found on adjusting the gibs:
> ...



The parts diagram is interesting when it comes to the gibs. The parts diagram on page 22 shows both the X and Y gibs labeled as item 2, but the description on page 23 says: "Gib, Y axis" with quantity of 2. I'm guessing this is a typo and both the gibs are the same part number: WMD20A-01-014. However, you say they are not interchangeable. Are you sure?

Thanks for the video link. I'll be sure to watch.

I'm not sure what you are saying about the X axis lead screw. Are you talking about aligning item 21: "X axis lead screw nut" to the lead screw (item 39)? If so, I haven't touch this. Should I worry about aligning it?

Well, I have both mineral spirits and WD-40. So, I can try both to see what works better.

Thanks!


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## macardoso (Oct 29, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> However, you say they are not interchangeable. Are you sure?


Gibs are often made from the same stock item but later cut to length and hand fitted. Therefore they may be the same part number but not interchangeable.


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## codexmas (Oct 29, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> The parts diagram is interesting when it comes to the gibs. The parts diagram on page 22 shows both the X and Y gibs labeled as item 2, but the description on page 23 says: "Gib, Y axis" with quantity of 2. I'm guessing this is a typo and both the gibs are the same part number: WMD20A-01-014. However, you say they are not interchangeable. Are you sure?



I accidentally swapped them, it took me a while to figure out as they did fit but barely, one axis was way loose and the other way too tight.



devils4ever said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying about the X axis lead screw. Are you talking about aligning item 21: "X axis lead screw nut" to the lead screw (item 39)? If so, I haven't touch this. Should I worry about aligning it?



I had taken the lead screw off to clean it thoroughly and re-grease it. Not entirely necessary, so if you haven't touched the nut bolts then you should be fine. Just pay attention to the amount of force/friction when you wheel the table to it's extents, it should be pretty consistently smooth.


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## devils4ever (Oct 29, 2019)

macardoso said:


> Gibs are often made from the same stock item but later cut to length and hand fitted. Therefore they may be the same part number but not interchangeable.



Got it. That makes sense.


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## devils4ever (Oct 30, 2019)

I'm making progress. I was able to use my 1 ton hoist to get the base and column off the floor and onto the stand easily. 







Now, I think I'm going to get all the grease off before reattaching the head and table. I'll see what works better WD-40 or mineral spirits. 

For reattaching the head, I'm thinking of placing it on some wood on the saddle to get it into approximate position while aligning the 3 bolts. Or, I could use the hoist to hold it in place while reattaching.


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## wrmiller (Oct 30, 2019)

The few times I took the head assy off like that, I laid some wood blocks on the table and set the head on those. Worked really well.


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## macardoso (Oct 30, 2019)

I always flip my head on its side, supported on 2x4's on the table. You can even use the handwheels to help align the holes for the bolts. Get the bolts started then rotate the head into position.


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## devils4ever (Oct 30, 2019)

macardoso: That makes sense. Thanks for the tip.

I have a newbie question since I'm getting closer to start using this thing. I've been reading the manual and I'm a little confused. It state for milling operations (pg 10) to keep the quill fully retracted and locked. I would assume that the Z axis handwheel should be used here. 

But, then on page 11, it says to lock the level hub and use the fine control know to precisely control the depth. Doesn't this raise and lower the quill?

Which method should be used for milling to control the Z axis? This seems contradictory.


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## macardoso (Oct 30, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Which method should be used for milling to control the Z axis? This seems contradictory.



You'll find that there are lots of different ways to skin a cat. You'll find that - for milling - keeping the quill fully retracted and locked will give you better rigidity. You should be locking anything that you aren't moving during a cut. 

I find that when I was using my machine manually, I would rough dial in the depth with the Z axis handwheel and then use the fine feed to get the last 1/4" or so. That way you get to use the DRO on the quill.


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## devils4ever (Oct 31, 2019)

All,

I spent the bulk of last night removing the grease off of everything. It was quite a job. I used WD-40 at first which seemed to work. Many, many applications were needed. The last little bits of stubborn grease were removed with mineral spirits. Both seem to work okay. I'm not sure if the mineral spirits were better, but I wanted to see.

Now, I'm ready to re-install the head and table. I realize that I don't have Mobil Vactra No 2 oil as recommended in the manual. So, I ordered some. I guess I'll wait until I get the oil before I install the table so I can pre-oil it better.

Also, I got my Kurt DX4 vise. Wow! This vise is a thing of beauty! I'm afraid to use it. I hope I'm worthy of it!

Can someone recommend a fly cutter for this mill? I think I want HSS, not carbide from what I read. Also, do I want a straight shank (if so, what diameter?) or R8? I'm thinking R8 would be more rigid.


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## macardoso (Oct 31, 2019)

I have found the Tormach TTS system to be a nice fit for my G0704. That is based on a 3/4" straight shank and saves on some tool height during changes. Even if you don't plan on going to this system, it might be good to get a 3/4" shank fly cutter.

Don't be afraid of carbide (although nothing is wrong with HSS). I am using carbide nearly 100% in my shop because I don't want grinding dust in my basement. It isn't terribly expensive and is very consistent in how it cuts.


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## codexmas (Oct 31, 2019)

macardoso said:


> Don't be afraid of carbide (although nothing is wrong with HSS). I am using carbide nearly 100% in my shop because I don't want grinding dust in my basement. It isn't terribly expensive and is very consistent in how it cuts.



I have gone with a CBN setup, which essentially eliminates the grinding dust issue, and also no need to true the wheels ever.








						CBN Wheels | Woodturning Grinding Wheels for Sale – Wood Turners Wonders
					

All woodturning tools will dull quickly over time. Invest in a CNB wheel, and you won’t have to deal with the dust and lack of efficiency of stone wheels.




					woodturnerswonders.com
				




Will need some diamond wheels when I eventually get into carbide, HSS is great newb learning


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## devils4ever (Oct 31, 2019)

Okay, I got the head on without issue. But, I think there is a problem with the power indicator. As you can see from the photo, the power is on and the spindle is turning, but the power indicator between the 1 and 0 button is not lit.

I still have to attach the table, but another question/issue came up. I attached a drill chuck to the spindle by removing the spindle cap. What is it's purpose? Do I need to add and remove this every time I change the collet or drill chuck? It's not going on and off very easily.


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## bakrch (Oct 31, 2019)

That shield was engineered by lawyers[sic], take it off, toss it on the floor and trip over it about 7 times before throwing it away. 

My power switch never lit up, is it even supposed to?


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## devils4ever (Nov 1, 2019)

bakrch: You are correct on both counts. I emailed PM and they told me that there is no power light on the PM-25MV and the spindle cap is not really needed and gets in the way.

I guess I'm good to go!


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## shooter123456 (Nov 1, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> bakrch: You are correct on both counts. I emailed PM and they told me that there is no power light on the PM-25MV and the spindle cap is not really needed and gets in the way.
> 
> I guess I'm good to go!


That light comes on when you stall the motor or some other kind of protection kicks in.  If I recall correctly, when you stall the spindle, it makes you power cycle it before it will run again.


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## devils4ever (Nov 2, 2019)

Finally, I was able to attached the table. Ready for action.






First cuts! A 3/4" piece of 6061 in my Kurt vise! I had to remove the plastic guard before doing my first cut. Does everyone remove this?


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## raven7usa (Nov 2, 2019)

That's the first thing I did was to remove the chip guard on my PM30.


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## wrmiller (Nov 2, 2019)

Looks good! Now the fun begins...


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## mcdanlj (Nov 2, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Does everyone remove this?



I think only the people who use their mills remove it.

After it is removed, there are some convenient already-tapped holes you can use for attaching coolant lines, lights, etc.


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## shooter123456 (Nov 4, 2019)

mcdanlj said:


> I think only the people who use their mills remove it.
> 
> After it is removed, there are some convenient already-tapped holes you can use for attaching coolant lines, lights, etc.


It also very conveniently holds the button to control a pneumatic draw bar.


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## devils4ever (Nov 17, 2019)

I've been using my mill now for a couple of weeks and I think I'm about ready to start thinking about the CNC conversion.

I think I want to start from the top and work down meaning that I want to get the motherboard first, then add the parallel port, then the BoB, then the motors and drivers. Next, I'll install LinuxCNC and configure it. After I get all this working, I'll work on the ballscrews, mounting, etc. This will keep my mill downtime to a minimum.

So, can anyone recommend a motherboard/CPU? I ran the live version of LinuxCNC on my main PC and got great numbers for the latency test (~2000). However, on my older PC, the numbers were not so great. So, I think a newer, cheaper MB is in order.

Also, I've been looking at the Mesa cards for motion control. Are they worth it? If so, which model?

Thanks!


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## devils4ever (Nov 19, 2019)

After some searching and reading, I think I might go with this mini-ITX motherboard: ASRock Mini ITX DDR3 1066 Q1900B-ITX. It has included CPU (Intel J1900), Ethernet, USB ports, parallel port, 2 serial ports, HDMI port, SATA ports, and PCI  Express port. I found this in a LinuxCNC forum. I just need to add memory and power supply.

Anyone thoughts on this? are there better/cheaper alternatives?

Does it make sense to put this in a traditional case and add a separate box for the BoB and motor drivers? Or, try to place everything in one box?

Thanks. Any input would appreciated.


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## matthewsx (Nov 19, 2019)

So you're building the PC you'll use on this machine rather than just using an older one you already have?

What I did was add a parallel card to my old Dell for the cheap 5 axis controller card I'm using currently. My sense is that the PC isn't likely to be a bottleneck for this application until I'm pretty far down the road (I'm also using LinuxCNC).

I have a Mesa 7I96 controller that will go into my new controls box with bigger DM542 stepper drives (up from TB6600's) and upgrading to 425oz steppers. I'll also be switching over to Ethernet for communications so no need for a parallel port anymore. I'm running a low-end Dell NUC that I have right now for testing, I'm not sure this one is what I'll ultimately use but I like the form factor as the mini-tower I have now seems larger than I need.

Honestly, I would approach the controls build from the other direction and pick your steppers/servo's first. If I knew what I do now when I started I'd have gone with different stuff but in my case I was building the whole machine so keeping this part cheap was important. I also got some steppers from another forum member that work pretty good until I push them hard.

Swapping in a different PC is pretty simple compared to changing the stuff closer to the machine. I can understand the logic of going with a set-up that others have had success with, and the motherboard you're looking at is pretty cheap so not a huge deal. But, if you have a PC that you can use to get started with I doubt you're going to run into latency issues for quite a while. Getting everything talking and moving things around is a challenge in the beginning but as you get more familiar with LinuxCNC it's less of in issue to do it again.

Others may know better than me but coming from a computer support perspective I just cringe at building a new system with a built-in older (slower) processor unless you know that's the only thing that will work.


Cheers,

1ohn


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## devils4ever (Nov 19, 2019)

Yeah, my old PC didn't give very good latency numbers when I ran the test from the live boot. So, I'm thinking of getting a newer, smaller, cheap MB for this. This MB has a parallel port built in. At around $80, it's pretty cheap. A lot of people seem to be using this MB for LinuxCNC based on the reviews on Amazon and the LinuxCNC forum. So, it must be decent for this task.

My thinking is to go from the top down to get everything I can working before dismantling the mill. This will keep the mill down for the shortest amount of time and allow me to possibly mill the mounting hardware I need. 

I'll probably go with what shooter123456 used as far as stepper motors and motor drivers. So, these are already picked.

I wasn't planning on using a Mesa motion controller unless needed. 

However, I guess the other option is to keep my older, slower PC and use a Mesa card. From what I've gathered, using a Mesa card requires minimal latency numbers?


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## devils4ever (Nov 20, 2019)

Okay, I found an old Lenovo Thinkpad at work with an Intel i5-3470T CPU running at 2.9 GHz and 16 GB of memory. I'm going to try an run the latency test on this.

If successful, I 'll need a Mesa 7I96 card connected to the Ethernet since there is no parallel port? I'm assuming this is better than putting together a new PC?


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## matthewsx (Nov 20, 2019)

devils4ever said:


> Okay, I found an old Lenovo Thinkpad at work with an Intel i5-3470T CPU running at 2.9 GHz and 16 GB of memory. I'm going to try an run the latency test on this.
> 
> If successful, I 'll need a Mesa 7I96 card connected to the Ethernet since there is no parallel port? I'm assuming this is better than putting together a new PC?



I don't have my new panel hooked up yet so if you have questions about the Mesa board please give them a call. From my research I decided to go this direction but there are a whole lot of options out there for control boards. I definitely think it's worthwhile to give the thinkpad a try, if it doesn't work there's always the building a new PC route.

Cheers,

1ohn


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## devils4ever (Nov 21, 2019)

I found that I actually have a Lenovo ThinkCentre M92p with 240 GB SSD and 16 GB of memory. It's a very small "desktop" PC. 

I installed LinuxCNC 2.7.14 on it. I'm running latency-test now, but I'm thinking that the numbers don't really matter if I plan on using a Ethernet motion controller. Correct?

I'm trying to figure out the differences between the Mesa 7I96 and the 7I76 besides the $80 difference in price!


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## rsnpt (Jun 13, 2020)

devils4ever said:


> View attachment 304857





codexmas said:


> Be sure to carefully align the X axis lead screw before tightening down the nut bolts, it's too bad there is no way to access it when the table is mounted.



Hi guys,

I recently bought a milling machine and decided to take it apart to clean and get to know it a little better. Handfuls of casting sand removed...

Now that everything is clean and reassembled in modules I'm putting it together. 
I removed the X axis brass nut and now I'm having a little trouble aligning it correctly as when I fit the table and both doweled ends I have to force the screw to bend a little. Obviously I don't want to make that happen, so, what is the correct way of aligning this nut?

I had no issues with the Y and Z axis nuts but this is getting very time consuming as the whole table must be removed in order to access the nut. I need to find out the proper way of aligning it. Help? 

Thanks


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## codexmas (Jun 14, 2020)

rsnpt said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I recently bought a milling machine and decided to take it apart to clean and get to know it a little better. Handfuls of casting sand removed...
> 
> ...



I just moved and reassembled my mill for the second time. The x axis screw alignment was off a bit, there was a variance in the force required to move it. I was considering a few different options on how to diagnose it without removing the table again, but gave in and took it off. It really doesn't take much time after you have done it once or twice.

I found a piece of aluminum profile that I could rest along the back dovetail and then eyeball the very ends of the screw to see how well aligned it was.
The rear dovetail is parallel to the screw, the one at the front is pretty obviously tapered, which is how the tapered gib does it's job. So the front one is not a good reference for how parallel the lead screw is.

So, it sounds like a lot of work but you will be happy you did it, even if it takes a few tries. Take the table off, find something to use as a reference to align the lead screw. Rinse and repeat. You will very easily be able to tell when you have gotten it right.

There is no documentation on this process that I could ever find, it's left to the owner to get to know the machine and the feel for it.


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## rsnpt (Jun 20, 2020)

Thanks for your reply. I tried your method and it worked well as long as the table was centered, but when I moved it to both ends it was getting harder and harder to turn the handles. Eventually I found out the lead screw was OK when the table was centered but was very offset when the table was pushed to one side.

I only had one of the bearing housing ends removed, so after removing the other I was able to slide the table without actually removing it. 
I ended up just setting the nut in place with the bolts slightly free, mounted the table and both ends, moved the table to adjust the nut to where it wants to be and then disassembling everything very carefully to not move the nut. Then torqued it and on reassembly all was good again, very smooth end to end. That's one sorted.

Now my next issue is tramming the head. I'm not sure where my issue is but I have 0.002" over 6 inches on the Y axis.

I'll describe what I did (not sure if the digital DTIs are the best tools for this, but they are what I have at the moment):

- mounted the column and checked it on the X axis. This: 



- locked X and Y axis
- with one of those T shaped tools with a DTI on each end (6 inches) adjusted the Y axis and found out I had 2 thou difference on each end (lower value at the column end).

Trying to figure out if the issue is the head or column:

- I set up a known good square (200mm) on the table and checked it vertically with the DTI, base attached to the Z axis saddle. I was not getting consistent results as the values were changing as I cranked the handle.
- Then I set up another DTI on the spindle running against the opposite edge of the square. With this I noticed that when I changed the direction of movement (up/down), the Z-axis side DTI was showing 0.0015-0.002" of movement while the spindle DTI had no movement. Also, running down the square edge, I had more movement on the Z-axis side than the spindle side. Video here: 



- I checked and re-checked the gib and I believe it is actually too tight, but it does run much smoother in the middle than on the top 1/3 of the column.
- Using the T tool with the DTIs I set the head on the X axis (easy) and re-checked the Y... again 2 thou.
- With the DTI held on the side of the head I run it on the table in the Y-axis, end to end, 0.0005" difference, so I believe my table is not tilting (I don't have a precision level yet).

What do you think of this? What could be tested next to find out where the problem is? I'm not understanding where I should be shimming it, or if I should at all.

One thing I noticed is that I can push the head and measure the column flexing, maybe 3-4 thou. I think the head really pushes the column forward and makes the setting of the Y axis really difficult. Do you guys notice the same?

Also, when I run the DTI on the spindle by lowering the quill (running down on the square), z-axis locked, I see around 8 thou at the end of the travel. It starts slowly with 2 thou and then right at the end... 8 thou. Do you guys see the same on your machines?

I'm sorry for so many questions, I'm just a newbie trying to figure out my new machine.

Thanks


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## codexmas (Jun 20, 2020)

I would start with the simplest tramming operation first, an indicator mounted on a bar that is chucked in a collet in the spindle.
The bar length doesn't need to be more than 4-6 inches really, getting within a thou or so over 8-12 inches for machines this size is really as good as you can expect.
Even if you went for a longer bar, swinging it from left to right over a longer distance these mills are known to go out on their own after a while.

Nod is something you would have to shim out, or use epoxy to lift the column, each their own issues. Shims make the whole column less rigid and epoxy is going to be a mess to deal with and a lot of trial and error getting it to the right level that you want.

I also started out with the newbie "chasing the numbers" syndrome, and now just work with it instead. Getting to know how much those values matter, or not, is a whole lot more useful than dialing it all in only to see it shift again.

Get it close, start making chips and get to know the machine, what you can do with it and then start tweaking when it starts to matter.

Just my thoughts on the subject, we all have different goals, mine is just a hobby with very sporadic use.


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