# Opinion on Babbit vs Timken bearings



## tawas23 (Oct 25, 2014)

I have a general question on which one is better ..I own a 10 Atlas with babbit bearings and really like the way it runs and cuts always though about if the Timken bearings version is better and wanted to know how that could run any better than mine ..Is the babbit bearing version better than the Timken version ??yes and no would be fine thanks


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## wa5cab (Oct 25, 2014)

No. Having said that, back in the day when Atlas was still selling both versions, the Timken bearing model was more expensive and was described as being what you need if you had to run the spindle at high RPM for extended periods.  Beyond that, so long as the bearings and spindle journals are in good condition, one works as well as the other.  The babbit bearings have laminated shim packs under each end of each bearing cap.  For adjustment instructions for both the babbit bearings and the thrust bearing see pages 9-11 of any MOLO (Manual of Lathe Operation) copyright 1937.  The 1955 (16th Edition) and later dropped coverage of babbit bearings.  For choosing the best MOLO version for your particular machine, see "MOLO History" and "MOLO to Machine Application" in the Manuals folder of the Atlas-Craftsman section of Downloads.  There is a top view cross-section drawing of a babbit bearing headstock on page 11.


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## Round in circles (Oct 26, 2014)

Babbitt bearings & shims with thrust bearings loaded radially & axially better than adjustable Timkin roller bearings that have the load spread evenly over the greater surface area  radially & axially  ..NO! 

Think of the taper roller bearing versus Babbitt bearings thing as the difference between a model ford T and a top of the range modern BMW they both work .  The Ford "T " is old and is totally outclassed by the BMW in capabilities and effectiveness.  Ford T maxed at 29 MPH & nearly shook the occupants to death , the " Beemer " flies at 160 MPH & the occupants don't even  know their moving .


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## Karl_T (Oct 26, 2014)

Round in circles said:


> ...
> Think of the taper roller bearing versus Babbitt bearings thing as the difference between a model ford T and a top of the range modern BMW they both work .  The Ford "T " is old and is totally outclassed by the BMW in capabilities and effectiveness.  Ford T maxed at 29 MPH & nearly shook the occupants to death , the " Beemer " flies at 160 MPH & the occupants don't even  know their moving .




True, But I have an affection for the old iron. The first lathe I ever bought (in 1978) was a 16" by 120" LeBlond. Its a flat belt drive from the line shaft days. I'm sure it made parts for WWI.  I get a feeling of history when I use it.

Karl


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## wa5cab (Oct 26, 2014)

One thing that I forgot to mention is that Timken bearings have the advantage that if you or the PO wear or wore them out, replacing them is easily doable.  Whereas replacing damaged babbit bearings isn't easy.

However, if both types are in good condition and properly adjusted, you can't tell from the finished part which type of bearings were in the lathe that made it.  So if your bearings are in good condition, run it.  In the home shop, the lathe will likely outlive you.

Also, download the Technical Bulletin on the Atlas 10" and early 12" headstock.  Although the spindle covered is Timken, the back gears in all of the ten Craftsman models that had them are the same.  And the TB covers them.

Robert D.


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## GK1918 (Oct 26, 2014)

Me being cat curious again.  I gotta know if a BMW will run a 100mph, its never going to make a 100 yrs old ?  and my 90 yrs old Ford never been re babbited and still got shims
and I'm still getting .0018 clearance. If one were to trust a BMW back to 1920 it wouldnt make it, even over mud ruts never mine fuel. eh
Im not pro or con but the babitt has been a faithfull servant that passed the test of time.  yes I have lathes with babbit & work just fine.


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## tawas23 (Oct 26, 2014)

thank you all for your input.. my machine still has shims in to too..my babbit machine runs great and now I have a good idea of the differences so for home use think I will stick with this one.. thanks again


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## Round in circles (Oct 26, 2014)

Slightly off topic I know  .. So I'll go for forgiveness on this one :-

  There are some old" Beemer's" in museums , from just after they started making day cars & their 100 mph track  racing cars   .... sadly I don't think any will yet be quite 100 yrs. old.

The oldest known form of the car I know of is a French " Buton " or similar name , I seem to recall it was made by the Renault company or it's forerunner about 125 yrs.ago & was steam driven  . 

 It was up for grabs at  ca. $ 2.9 , 000,000 USD  , for the suggested /expected price at auction in the USA a while back  .
 Take your telephone number & multiply it by 19 to get an idea of the going prices for them at todays prices .


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## oldschoolcj5 (Oct 26, 2014)

hello
    i have used old lathes that have babbit bearings in them. they weren't a atlas but still a babbit bearing lathe. when properly set up and i found that they gave a better finish on cuts. some old timers told me it was because of the more surface area taking supporting and dampening the spindle. you can look at some of the old tool lathes most of them ran some sort of solid bearings, mostly bronze bearings. never give up on the old ways. they might be simple but they were also very practical.

stephan


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## iron man (Oct 27, 2014)

oldschoolcj5 said:


> hello
> i have used old lathes that have babbit bearings in them. they weren't a atlas but still a babbit bearing lathe. when properly set up and i found that they gave a better finish on cuts. some old timers told me it was because of the more surface area taking supporting and dampening the spindle. you can look at some of the old tool lathes most of them ran some sort of solid bearings, mostly bronze bearings. never give up on the old ways. they might be simple but they were also very practical.
> 
> stephan



 I would agree here I have worked on lathes in the past with babbit bearings and some with brass bushings both performed very well.

On a side note both the model T and most any modern car still have a babbit bearing it is just the Model T is cast them in place and  then align bored the other has babbit inserts easyier to install but still a silver babbit material. I used to work on Antique cars and build High performance engines.


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## Andre (Oct 27, 2014)

Also keep in mind you can pour your own babbit bearings, and spindle work is easier since you don't have to press off bearings.

My two lathes have bronze bearings, some say plain bearing machines produce a better finish on work but I'm not sure about that.


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## rowbare (Oct 29, 2014)

Round in circles said:


> Think of the taper roller bearing versus Babbitt bearings thing as the difference between a model ford T and a top of the range modern BMW they both work .  The Ford "T " is old and is totally outclassed by the BMW in capabilities and effectiveness.  Ford T maxed at 29 MPH & nearly shook the occupants to death , the " Beemer " flies at 160 MPH & the occupants don't even  know their moving .



And what kind of bearings does the BMW engine use for the crank and rods? Babbit of course...

bob


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## John Hasler (Oct 29, 2014)

That BMW engine also uses pressurized oil in those bearings.


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## Round in circles (Oct 29, 2014)

I think you will find that the shell bearings for the big ends & crank journals & other fine tolerance white metal coated sleeve bearings used in the engines of modern cars are a far cry from the old cast in blocks & hand scraped or reamed Babbitt metal  bearings .  That they are also a far superior alloy than the basic Babbitt alloy of old.

 However these polymer bearing surfaces bad boys are even surpassing them ...  check out this at  federalmogul.com


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## SG51Buss (Oct 29, 2014)

Warning:  Regurgitating 50 year old memories here.

I recall overhearing a discussion between my father and colleagues covering this subject.  The consensus was that the tapered bearings were better because of lower maintenance (didn't have to oil daily), servicability (replacement didn't require tedious realignment), and high speeds.  But the babbit/bush type handled higher cutting loads, damped machining chatter better, and could be adjusted loose for hi-speed, or tight for greater precision (than the tapered bearings).

Well, that was the mindset back then...


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## wa5cab (Oct 30, 2014)

But don't make the mistake of attempting to use such in a dirty environment.  Here's a photo of one that was made by Oilite after a 6 hour run.  And this wasn't the worst one on the tool.  I've been trying to get them to quit using the things for two years.  But my solution, which 35 years ago could survive for hundreds of hours in the same environment, apparently isn't hi-tech enough.:talktogod: 		

Robert D.



Round in circles said:


> However these polymer bearing surfaces bad boys are even surpassing them ...  check out this at  federalmogul.com


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## fastback (Oct 30, 2014)

Here is something else to throw into the mix.  I have a 1942 SB 10L, Tool Room lathe which was like the top of the line.  The specs say it has a high accuracy lead screw and also a taper attachment.  This lathe uses the cast iron head stock as the bearings, when they wear out the lathe is done.  It also uses shims.  The one thing to keep in mind is that the old machines did not have the high speeds of today and therefore could run with something less than roller bearings. Mine still runs well and meets the original design specs.

Paul


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## Ebel440 (Oct 31, 2014)

Just curious what runs on the cast iron in the south Bend headstock does the spindle have some sort of bushing on it? Does it just run the steel spindle on cast iron?


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## Halligan142 (Oct 31, 2014)

"Just curious what runs on the cast iron in the south Bend headstock does the spindle have some sort of bushing on it? Does it just run the steel spindle on cast iron?"


A film of oil floats the spindle off the cast iron bore.  That's why it's so essential on those lathes to make sure your bearing clearance is adjusted properly and you oil regularly with a nice thin oil.  The older lathes had a "Total Loss" type of oil system where you pour oil through a gits oiler at the top and it eventually goes everywhere.  The newer "side oiler" ones incorporated a sump, oil wick, and oil return system so you just have to make sure the resevoir is full.


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## chevydyl (Nov 1, 2014)

In my opinion if there were 2 lathes of equal condition, one with babbit one roller, I'd pick the roller all day long. Like others have said nothing wrong with the babbit. But ease of use for the operator for adjusting preload sells me. We have these huge natural gas compressors at work and they have babbit bearings on some components....


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## wa5cab (Nov 1, 2014)

Yes, and probably neither I nor anyone else would disagree with you.  But what to buy wasn't the original question.


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## chevydyl (Nov 2, 2014)

Part of my opinion on babbit included the dresser rand compressor, which has babbits on critical components subjected to Temps close to 300 degrees. Nothing wrong with babbit bearings   now, given the parts I speak of are linear and not rotational....


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