# 3phase Wiring?



## Uglydog (Nov 24, 2013)

I'm working on the resurrection oef a Walker Turner Light Industrial Drill Press.
I guess I'm a bit of a WT wood working machine snob.
When I saw this for $100, well...

It came without a motor.
My goal for a minimum speed was 200, and was restricted by specific pulley sizes by the pulley guards.
I picked up a two speed 3 phase motor and built a motor mount, turned a multi step pulley to fit the motor shaft. 
Now for the electrical.
I have a 3 phase forward reverse, the DP came with a 3 phase on/off with thermals. 
I believe I could figure out the on/off & F/R without assist. Not so much with the two speed.

I've attached pics and motor prints hoping they might be of assist. 

Any suggestions for how I should best identify, purchase and install a two speed switch integrated with a forward revers an on/off with thermals?
Please note the Baldor motor pdf at the end of the pics.

Please.

And ... thank you!!!


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## xalky (Nov 24, 2013)

I think your gonna need a barrel switch like on a lathe. There might be other ways to do it, but I think thats the simplest. And the a seperate polarity switching switch for the forward and reverse... A barrel switch when setup correctly will give you the 2 speeds.


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## Uglydog (Nov 24, 2013)

xalky said:


> I think your gonna need a barrel switch like on a lathe. There might be other ways to do it, but I think thats the simplest. And the a separate polarity switching switch for the forward and reverse... A barrel switch when setup correctly will give you the 2 speeds.



I don't know what a barrel switch is. It might very well be the answer....
This is a pic of the internals of my forward reverse switch. Is that it?

The Baldor pdf show the wiring for the motor (my initial post). 
High speed looks like 4 5 6 are connected to the 3 incoming phases.
Low speed looks like 1 2 3 are connected to the 3 incoming phases. 
The two speed switch to electrical supplier sold me was a 2 pole.
Now I own a 2 pole 30Amp two speed switch (expensive).

Incidentally, while I believe I have still have a balance issue for my 20hp RTC, things are much improved I have multiple long days of operation without a thermal blowing or any evident electrical issues.

Ahhh. Please note that's electrical problems and not machining (specifically machinist---me) errors. 


Daryl
MN


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## xalky (Nov 24, 2013)

Yeah, that's a barrel switch. Your gonna need 2 switches. One for forward and reverse and then one that does the speeds. We need to see the schematics for the 2 switches too. Between the PDF motor wiring and the 2 switch schematics , we should be able to get you going.


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## rdhem2 (Nov 24, 2013)

Mr. Uglydog;
First, your motor pulley is impressive.  Nice work!

Next, a barrel switch is also referred to as a drum switch like you show.

Next to get two speeds, forward and reverse, you need more than what you show.

Drum switch is for forward and reverse but not two speed.  Fwd/Rev is a matter of interchanging two leads of the same winding.  Two speed is energizing a completely different set of windings after de-energizing the first set.

Two speed is typically done with a second contactor inter locked with first so it is impossible to energise both at the same time.  This is done both electrically and mechanically.  

Anything is possible so with a two speed magnetic starter, complete with two overload blocks as each speed has different overload requirements and two drum switches you could get it done.  You would have to be cautious as to switch position so you would not go from high forward to high reverse with one movement.  A little hard on equipment if it is not made for it.  

On the other end, set the cams in the drum switch so it will only stay in one position or the other.  If it goes to center, off position, the drill stops for no apparent reason until you figure it out.  Getting a little complicated for me.

You would have high/low, stop pushbuttons and then two drum switch handles for forward reverse for each speed.  Is there a purpose for all this or just because you can?

Added:
I guess we are posting at the same time.  The two pole switch, return it and get your money back.  A two pole anything is pretty useless in a three phase world.  You might try and befriend an electrician for this project, you have a lot going on.


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## rdhem2 (Nov 24, 2013)

Mr. Uglydog:
Another thing that is going to make this more confusing is you are trying to accomplish part of the job with control wiring and part of the job with power/line wiring.  Two completely different worlds.  

Two speeds via contactors, control wiring. 

Forward/Reverse for each speed via drum switch, line voltage wiring.


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## Uglydog (Nov 25, 2013)

Interesting idea about two drum switches. Especially as I have several in my parts bin. I'll draw up a sketch and post it for feedback. 

Why? I've read some threads about power tapping as well as the value of left hand drills.
Thought I'd add those to the long and growing list of things I've messed up.

Thank you!
Daryl
MN


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rdhem2 (Nov 25, 2013)

Mr. Uglydog;

I have basically the same WT drill press, mine being set up in radial arm fashion.  Knowing what it will do, and the numerous speeds it already offers I think I can save you some time and money.  This drill is not the easiest to change speeds on that I have ever seen.  Requiring a wrench and pry bar to loosen and tighten the belts each time.  Next I needed, like most home shop people, a single phase motor to drive it.  All the single phase motors I checked would not fit physically in the space given in the design.  So I left the original three phase motor in place.

You see where I am going don't you?

An Allan Bradly VFD.  High low speed for each of the sixteen already provided speeds.  Forward, Reverse for those sixteen infinite speeds.  Sixteen times infinite is how many speeds?  Push button reset for the safeties built into the drive.  240v, 1ph to 240v, 3ph conversion.  Controlled acceleration/deceleration.  And so much more.  All for about $230 if memory serves me. You will have far more dollars invested the way you are going. Two speed magnetic starter, 6 each thermal overload heaters, 2 each drum switches for forward/reverse operation, pushbuttons and enclosure and way more confusion on the operator end to get started. Just to get sixteen more speeds for which you are changing belts to acquire.  By using the drive you have all the above with four pushbuttons and a dial at your fingertips.  

I have used the drill in slow speed reverse with a left hand bit to coax out a broken bolt before.  I can appreciate that very much!  And you can return that expensive two speed motor also.


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## xalky (Nov 25, 2013)

He's got a point there. The dollar amounts are getting to be really close.


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## Uglydog (Nov 28, 2013)

I appreciate your input, and experience.
I've had three drum switches gathering dust.
The two speed Baldor 3phase I bought on a whim last summer for $30.
The WT came with a 3phase on/off with thermals.
I've got a bin of 20A and 30A male and female 3phase plugs I got for $5 at a garage sale.
Have a large RPC creating 3phase.
I might just wire low speed and possible forward/reverse for now to get me operational.
As I'm mostly concerned only with the low 850 RPM anyway. 


Daryl
MN



rdhem2 said:


> Mr. Uglydog;
> 
> I have basically the same WT drill press, mine being set up in radial arm fashion.  Knowing what it will do, and the numerous speeds it already offers I think I can save you some time and money.  This drill is not the easiest to change speeds on that I have ever seen.  Requiring a wrench and pry bar to loosen and tighten the belts each time.  Next I needed, like most home shop people, a single phase motor to drive it.  All the single phase motors I checked would not fit physically in the space given in the design.  So I left the original three phase motor in place.
> 
> ...


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## rdhem2 (Nov 28, 2013)

Mr. uglydog;

I don't mean to harp but I don't think  you don't quite have the full drift of what is happening yet.  A two speed motor requires two magnetic starters, mechanically and electrically interlocked, or two mechanically interlocked manual starters.  This in turn requires two overload relays with thermal overload heaters and the necessary pilot controls to operate them in the case of the magnetic starters.  The higher speed is rated full horsepower and torque.  The lower speed, usually one half the first speed, has only one half the horsepower and something like one third the torque. So at low speed 100% of the time you have one helluva chunk of iron hanging there not doing much with no guts.  Just a thought.

Also you mentioned power tapping.  Now there is some fun stuff.  Tapping holes up to 2K rpm and never harming a tap.  I have three heads, all made by Tap-Matic.  First two cover sizes "O" to 1/2" and I use in the mill or drill press.  The taps used are plain old taps however some taps do work better then others.  I only know all this from self teaching and experimenting and reading.  When you engage the tap it turns until it is through the hole or meets too much resistance, then a clutch slips, stopping the tap from turning.  Lifting the handle reverses the tap and it backs out of the hole.  In the mid position the tap does not turn, it only goes in with down pressure and out with up pressure.  In tapping through holes, the tap engages and turns, automatically extending out until through the material then reversing and returning.  You don't need to move the handle farther.

The third head is an older style I use primarily on the lathe.  It taps the hole and the clutch slips when resistance is encountered but you must stop and reverse the lathe to retract the tap.  I find that to be no inconvenience on the lathe like I would on the mill or drill.

Hope this helps you understand all this neat stuff better.  These heads are expensive but if you hate tapping a bajillion holes like I do, they are well worth it.  Besides they are fun to impress people with.  I got all three heads off flea bay and was lucky to have $60 or less in each one.  The rubber collets used to center the taps are like gold but can be found elsewhere other than Tap-Matic.  They are made by Jacobs and have their own series number.  Tap-Matic wants over $50 ea---ridiculous.

Have fun and keep piling up the _*SWARF!    

*_One of my best-us buddies is a retired Firefighter, so I understand.


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## benmychree (Nov 28, 2013)

Also it is possible to buy 2 speed drum switches with reverse capability; I have one on my lathe.  It is not necessary to use magnetic starters on most home shop equiptment except air compressors of higher horsepower.  I would reserve magnetic switches for machinery that runs largely unattended, or of horsepower rating that is too big for manual switches.  We operate most of our tools standing in front of them; if overloaded, our noses will tell us about it before damage is done; one cause of the overload may be single phasing, where a switch may have poor contact, this is one situation where a magnetic switch will protect the motor; when it single phases, amps go up and over the rating of the OL relays and the circuit is disengaged.  All this is not much of a problem in a home shop; your nose knows!


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## Uglydog (Nov 28, 2013)

Amongst the many people at our house today was a well retired electrical engineer.
He looked at my motor, wiring diagram, read your thread, checked out my misc parts. Scratched his head and belly, expelled gas then reported that you are all correct. Yep, that was pretty much the sequence. Had nothing to do with you. He is just an amusing man.
He also, identified that between what he has laying around his shop and what I have we will only need a few parts to make both speeds and a reverse work. And work well.

He will be sending me a parts list identifying the missing parts.
It may be several weeks, but I'll post results of his thoughts and my never ending learning curve.

Once again.
Thank you all for not hesitating to question my thinking.

Daryl
MN


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## xalky (Nov 28, 2013)

Excellent! THAT'S GOOD NEWS... I can usually figure these things out myself when everything is laying out in front of me...but to tell you how to do it is a different story entirely. :LOL:


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## Uglydog (Dec 19, 2013)

Got her powered up last Sunday.
The retired electrical engineer delighted at the challenge of using the three drum switches. He supposedly had it figured out how to get 2 speeds and a forward and reverse. However, we both had concerns about if anyone could remember the combinations to get the desired results without burning out the motor due to a user err.

We decided to purchase the switch.
The on/off has thermals. 
The table legs are made from large I beams left over from a bridge, the table from large channel ($500).
The two speed 3phase motor produces 3/4hp at low speed, and 3hp at high speed. Now with reverse.
.003 runout on the spindle on this early (serial# 187) Walker Turner "Light-Industrial". Vintage Machinery documents seem to corroborate the age.
Currently I've got a Riess Mfg Co, Kokomo Ind XY table and DP vise on the table.

Thank you all for your persistence that I do this correctly the first time!


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## xalky (Dec 19, 2013)

Wow, nice switch. How much was that sucker? That can't be cheap..:bitingnails:


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## rdhem2 (Dec 19, 2013)

Mr. uglydawg;

Nice job.  She's a beauty and hell for stout I'm sure.  You can't go wrong with Walker Turner as the core piece.

Now time for a Du Pont overhaul.


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## Dave Smith (Dec 19, 2013)

Daryl--that bench looks a little whimpy, but it will probably hold up ---really--great job on getting your drill press in operation--looking forward to seeing you on monday morning--you can look at my WT press---Dave


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## genec (Dec 19, 2013)

If you have step pulleys, why do you need to change motor speed?  :think1:


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## Uglydog (Dec 19, 2013)

genec said:


> If you have step pulleys, why do you need to change motor speed?  :think1:



Great question!
I could have had her up and running without bothering you all, and at less expense.
However, I wanted a wider range of speeds for different metals and an occasional wood project.

Attached is a pdf extract some WT lit. 
Now she will run at motor speeds of 850 and 1725.
I still need to do the calculations for spindle speeds. But, I'm guessing I'll be at sub 200rpm, whereas I'd have only 400rpm with a standard issue 1750 motor.
Besides I kept tripping on the two speed motor.

I have much to learn!
Daryl
MN


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## genec (Dec 20, 2013)

thanks, tell your electrician to leave a  diagram of every thing. have fun


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