# VFD Variable frequency drives



## NEL957 (May 1, 2017)

Need help
I am looking to buy a VFD and I need your help on a good one and not a dud. Anyone that has experience and maybe a good supplier would be very helpful. 
What I wast to do is run a 3 phase mill on single phase power.
Thanks for all the help
Nelson


----------



## Bob Korves (May 1, 2017)

My only experience is with a new 3 HP Chinese rated VFD bought off eBay for $109 and shipped free from China.  The instructions are difficult to understand well, but I was not doing anything too arcane in hooking it up to my surface grinder, just an external on/off spindle switch, and an external potentiometer to control the frequency/motor rpm.  The import VFD's are known for less than robust keypads so I just bypassed it for the controls I use regularly.  It works just fine, no issues with buying it or with hooking it up.  The import VFD's are a LOT cheaper than anything built in the USA, especially if you get it from AliExpress, direct from China, instead of through eBay, like it did.  You take a chance on the imports, but you can also save a LOT of money...  I have friends with import VFD's and have personally heard no stories of getting a "dud."


----------



## RandyWilson (May 1, 2017)

Another forum will tell you in no uncertain terms that your shop will burn to the ground the second UPS drops off your new Chinese VFD.  With that sort of strong recommendation, I ordered a 2.2Kw Huanyang off of eBay. Very likely the same unit Bob has, The instructions are average chinglish. There is enough info readily available on the net to set one up without ever opening the manual.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 1, 2017)

This:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-220V-...366802?hash=item3d395c7992:g:VRsAAOSwrhBZAqLb
is what I bought, three dollars more today than when I bought it.  If you buy one, use PayPal to keep the shipper honest.
I just checked AliExpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholes...1&SortType=price_asc&g=y&SearchText=2.2kw+vfd
Their prices are considerably higher due to the shipping costs, which surprises me.  Most China direct import things are cheaper from them.


----------



## RandyWilson (May 1, 2017)

That is exactly the one. Yes.


 I've found that heavy or bulky items do not do well off Ali* in small quantities. The shipping amortizes much better when spread across a container load. Tis why many of my purchases originate in City of Industry, Ca.


----------



## mksj (May 1, 2017)

So a number of different views on these Chinese eBay VFDs. I have heard of at least two other individuals that had DOA units, the vendor did take care of them, but do not expect any warranty or installation support. I have had enough issues with the HY VFDs and there are even cheaper clones sold on eBay, that I usually suggest paying a little more and getting one that comes with a warranty and some installation support. There are some cases, where you just can't beat the price of the HY VFDs for the application, such as a 5-10Hp VFD with a single phase input. So my major problem with the standard HY VFDs is they do not have sensorless vector control,  they do not have the braking circuity for an external resistor built in (even though the terminals are there), they do not autotune the VFD to the motor. Sensorless vector control gives you significantly better low end motor control and higher short term overload. There is less of a need of an external braking resistor on a mill, but I have heard of people tripping the VFD when turning down the speed rapidly. I have also had issues with the terminals being too small for the rated current and crimps size So you pretty much get what you pay for, they all will work, if you are looking at rock bottom price then get the HY (there are some US shipping vendors on eBay, although there support is not to good). Otherwise if you want a bit better performance and support then look at something like a Teco L510 or N3, Hitachi, WEG or Auotomation Direct VFDs . I have worked and done the programming with most of these units, on a mill it is very basic.

There are several US vendors that I have purchased VFDs from, the ones I recommend are:
http://dealerselectric.com/230V-single-phase-input.asp
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/index


----------



## NEL957 (May 1, 2017)

I want to thank each and everyone for your comments. I've read almost everything I could find and kind of hesitate, but that seems like the way to go. Just one thing about Teco / Westinghouse is a China manufacturing. 
Again thanks
Nelson


----------



## Bob Korves (May 1, 2017)

mksj said:


> I have heard of at least two other individuals that had DOA units


Hearsay not accepted.


mksj said:


> I have had enough issues with the HY VFDs and there are even cheaper clones sold on eBay, that I usually suggest paying a little more


"A little more" starts at about double the cost, and does not include free shipping.

I assume that the units you posted are all made in China.  I know you have LOTS more experience with these things than I do, and I respect your opinions.  You also do this stuff professionally, which colors what things are most important to you.  I am just a frugal pensioner...


----------



## mksj (May 1, 2017)

Hi Nelson,
Just about everything these days seems to be made in China, or has parts from there. I think the problem arises is that everything is built to a price point, so it is not as much where it is made but how it is made and the QC. I have become a little more jaded on buying some things direct from China through eBay, as it is impossible to return (due to the shipping cost) and essentially no technical support should you have a problem. The Teco VFDs are very good, I have heard of one individual that had some problems with an L510 not working well with his mill motor, the Teco N3 has been around for a long time and is very similar to the Automation Direct G3, both which are very good. Many of us have used the Hitachi VFDs (WJ200), I have not heard of a problem or failure. The programing on many of these VFDs can be a bit daunting, but not so hard once you get started. If you don't know or have question just ask and I am sure we can help. I understand the cost issues, so if the budget is limited, then the HY is hard to beat, especially if the money is tight. It is a learning process of knowing the different features and just buyer beware.  I think a VFD adds a lot of features and controls, and at fairly reasonable cost at the 3Hp and smaller size. 

Drive Warehouse has free shipping on their VFDs, I have purchased quite a few from them and they tend to have the lowest pricing. They also extend the manufactures warranties to a total of 3 years for drives, although I have yet to see a major brand VFD  fail in this time frame.
Mark


----------



## JimDawson (May 1, 2017)

My prefered vendor is Automation Direct.  Good, readable documentation and U.S.A based tech support.  Not the least expensive, but a good value.


----------



## Maddogmech1 (May 1, 2017)

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the HY crowd, I hate resorting to Chinese manufacture, but my income/hobby expense ratio veers sharply toward China. I have 3 machines powered by HY Vfd's, and I've never had a problem with any, the biggest being a 5hp from single phase conversion on a monarch 10ee lathe. Even at extremely low speed, the drive has a tremendous amount of torque. The manual isn't very hard to decipher either, at least for basic programming needed on a shop machine. Don't hesitate at going this route


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CluelessNewB (May 1, 2017)

I have 4 VFD's 3 of them are Teco and one is Huanyang.   The Huanyang works but I would NOT buy another one. Besides the things that that others have mentioned and a few things that bugged me and make me really wonder about the things under the covers that I can't see.   On mine the terminals for wires are not sized large enough to fit wires of the recommended size for the current the VFD is rated for.  I was able to eventually squeeze the wires in but just barely.  The screws used for the wire terminals are made out of some kind of silly putty metal.  I don't have a Oscilloscope but I suspect the output waveforms are ugly since it was necessary to really crank up the carrier frequency to eliminate noise from the motor,  the same motor worked fine at lower carrier frequencies with a Teco VFD.  (Using a higher carrier frequency eliminates noise but causes the motor and VFD to run hotter).  The only good thing that I see about the Huanyang VFD's is the price.  I personally will not be buying any more.


----------



## Mister Ed (May 2, 2017)

I just put a TECO L510 on my new Logan lathe. Purchased from Wolf Automation for right around $140. Why did I go with the TECO? Plain and simple, for what I wanted to do (control wise) it supplied the clearest instructions (I was reading instructions before purchase). I really did not do much for controls ... just used the current Forward-Off-Reverse drum switch to control the VFD ... but it was pretty well described in the documentation. I may ad Jog and E-stop down the road ... but even that appears pretty straightforward.

So far so good, the 53 year old motor is turning quite nicely. I turned the carrier freq. up just a bit to eliminate a bit of the noise.


----------



## 4ssss (May 4, 2017)

All my machines have Lenze SMvector's on them. The last one that I purchased was a used one from Radwell International in NJ.   $100 and they guarantee it, which is 1/3 of the price of a new one.  Lenze's tech support is the best if you have questions in programming them.


----------



## glmonroebbs (May 4, 2017)

I have been ordering my stuff from automationtechnologiesinc.com.  They are located in Illinois.  I'm in Michigan and I get the stuff the next day.  Their prices and shipping are extremely reasonable.  I also buy from cnc4pc.com located in Florida.   Very nice vendors.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Eddyde (May 4, 2017)

I have both Teco and Huanyang VFD's, All work fine, I concur the comments about the HY having undersized lugs. the problem is you need to use spade terminals but the US sized ones are a little too wide to fit properly as its probably designed for metric terminals. So I had to grind em slightly... no biggie.


----------



## NEL957 (May 8, 2017)

The VFD came today and read everything it had with it and one thing has me confused. Wiring it up to all the diagrams, no where does it show the ground for the input power. I finally opened the box up an pulled the VFD out and looked at the power input and output and there in the middle is the ground. I'll be in the shop trying it out tonight. I'll take some pics.
Nelson


----------



## Mister Ed (May 8, 2017)

Which VFD? The TECO L510 had 2 ground terminals protruding from the case ... I think between the main and control terminal strips.


----------



## 4ssss (May 8, 2017)

It will show an earth icon, a bunch of squiggly lines.


----------



## NEL957 (May 9, 2017)

I thought I had it in the thread but looking back I did not. Here it is and yes it has a ground between the input and the output terminals. Last night I was not supposed to work on it. My younger brother called then the power went out. One of them things that happen this time of year with all the heat. Went to bed early around 9 o'clock, early for me.
I got out early and wired it up and had to rewire the motor to low voltage then everything worked very well. I do not have any experience with VFD but I will say for a hundred dollars you can not go wrong. If it last now I will be a happy camper. 
Here is the unit I purchased: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262955366802 and 3 pictures of it.
The only thing I did not like is it does not have the knob to adjust the speed but I'll have that on the machine panel.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 9, 2017)

I learned during the install of my VFD that the control side ground was not common to the power side ground.


----------



## NEL957 (May 9, 2017)

Bob
I saw the control side ground but there is no way to attach a big wire to it. I already figured it out by opening the VFD and looking. It does not show it on diagrams in the booklet but was obvious when I looked. Now I need to set up the machine panel to operate it. One nice thing about this one you can go from forward to reverse without stopping and love that low speed. Another question, at the low speeds does it still maintain the torque?


----------



## Bob Korves (May 9, 2017)

NEL957 said:


> Bob
> I saw the control side ground but there is no way to attach a big wire to it. I already figured it out by opening the VFD and looking. It does not show it on diagrams in the booklet but was obvious when I looked. Now I need to set up the machine panel to operate it. One nice thing about this one you can go from forward to reverse without stopping and love that low speed. Another question, at the low speeds does it still maintain the torque?


The wiring on the control side has low voltage and very little current.  It is only for sending signals.  22 gauge wire is enough for them.  That is why the ground connection is small.


----------



## Splat (May 9, 2017)

NEL957 said:


> Need help
> I am looking to buy a VFD and I need your help on a good one and not a dud. Anyone that has experience and maybe a good supplier would be very helpful.
> What I wast to do is run a 3 phase mill on single phase power.
> Thanks for all the help
> Nelson



Nelson, I've had nothing but good experiences with Dealers Electric in New Jersey. I've bought VFD's and motors from them any no problems and they're nice guys who will answer all your questions. They did for me with nary a fit.


----------



## NEL957 (May 15, 2017)

mksj said:


> Hi Nelson,
> Just about everything these days seems to be made in China, or has parts from there. I think the problem arises is that everything is built to a price point, so it is not as much where it is made but how it is made and the QC. I have become a little more jaded on buying some things direct from China through eBay, as it is impossible to return (due to the shipping cost) and essentially no technical support should you have a problem. The Teco VFDs are very good, I have heard of one individual that had some problems with an L510 not working well with his mill motor, the Teco N3 has been around for a long time and is very similar to the Automation Direct G3, both which are very good. Many of us have used the Hitachi VFDs (WJ200), I have not heard of a problem or failure. The programing on many of these VFDs can be a bit daunting, but not so hard once you get started. If you don't know or have question just ask and I am sure we can help. I understand the cost issues, so if the budget is limited, then the HY is hard to beat, especially if the money is tight. It is a learning process of knowing the different features and just buyer beware.  I think a VFD adds a lot of features and controls, and at fairly reasonable cost at the 3Hp and smaller size.
> 
> Drive Warehouse has free shipping on their VFDs, I have purchased quite a few from them and they tend to have the lowest pricing. They also extend the manufactures warranties to a total of 3 years for drives, although I have yet to see a major brand VFD  fail in this time frame.
> Mark



Mark
I pay with PayPal and they take care of all problems, but I've found the Chinese dealers want a squeaky clean record and will bend over backward to get it. But for a hundred dollars how can you go wrong?
Nelson
Teco/Westinghouse is a china builder too.


----------



## 4GSR (May 16, 2017)

I just installed one of these on my 15" Sheldon rebuild.  Took a while to go thru some of the parameters to get it running like I wanted it to run.  First time I turned it on, it went to full 400 hertz, which was almost 8000 rpm on my 5 hp motor!  I shut it off before any damaged was done to the headstock of the lathe.  So before you hit the on switch, go thru the setting parameters and get them right before flipping the switch.  There's a good thread here on the setting parameters and what to set them to.  So far, I'm satisfied with the VFD.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 16, 2017)

4gsr said:


> I just installed one of these on my 15" Sheldon rebuild.  Took a while to go thru some of the parameters to get it running like I wanted it to run.  First time I turned it on, it went to full 400 hertz, which was almost 8000 rpm on my 5 hp motor!  I shut it off before any damaged was done to the headstock of the lathe.  So before you hit the on switch, go thru the setting parameters and get them right before flipping the switch.  There's a good thread here on the setting parameters and what to set them to.  So far, I'm satisfied with the VFD.


Yes, the factory settings are usually WAY different than what you want for your machine...  Caveat Emptor!


----------



## sanddan (May 16, 2017)

mksj said:


> There is less of a need of an external braking resistor on a mill, but I have heard of people tripping the VFD when turning down the speed rapidly.



I have this issue on my mill using a TECO that does not allow use of an external braking resistor. I have to VERY SLOWLY reduce the speed or I get an error requiring a complete shutdown of the VFD to clear. Even on a mill I think you need the braking resistor feature.

The mill is a Jet variable speed, 3hp, 9x49.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 16, 2017)

sanddan said:


> I have this issue on my mill using a TECO that does not allow use of an external braking resistor. I have to VERY SLOWLY reduce the speed or I get an error requiring a complete shutdown of the VFD to clear. Even on a mill I think you need the braking resistor feature.
> 
> The mill is a Jet variable speed, 3hp, 9x49.


I think your problem is more likely two separate parameters that are set so they interfere with each other.  Go through the various settings checking them and thinking about your issue and how they interact.  You will probably find it.


----------



## NEL957 (Jun 30, 2017)

Ha All, 
Got the mill cleaned up and went through the spindle before powering it up. Had very good luck with the VFD. Went through the instruction and followed them, everything went good. I have on big question and well what about the ground on the machine?  When I get the machine on the wall where I want it I would like to ground it. Any help, very much appreciated.
Nelson


----------



## RandyWilson (Jul 1, 2017)

Yes, these things come up at 400hz. that's the default for the little CNC spindles they are often used on.  First thing is to set Pn03=2 and Pn32=6. That will give you a sane-ish 50hz starting point.

I have two different grounding schemes; one a star, the other two daisychain. How you do it really doesn't matter as long as you don't create a loop. The manual has pictures. For my first installation, I just ran a ground wire out of the outlet box and connected it to the old grounding point in the machine's main fuse/disconnect For the other two, I stacked the ground wires on the earth lug of the VFD. I had read that some had issues with the room for wires. I used the appropriate non-insulated  #8 rings crimped and then touched with solder. Unlike other hardware, these screws come right out making the rings easier than the more common forks. So it was just a matter of setting the two ground lugs back to back and runnng the screw in. I used 12ga for the two and 10ga for the latest.  


 It is unfortunate that both the mains earth (to borrow a term) and the control signal  common both got labeled "ground" in Americanese. This causes endless problems in the automotive world.

I do not use the DC braking feature, and have no braking resistor. I do, however, use a pretty aggressive down ramp on the lathe and mill. I'm a little skittish of powering them down all the way to 0hz, so I drag them down from 60hz to 10hz in three seconds, then drop power and let them coast the last little bit.


----------

