# Weld or braze?



## alloy (Apr 6, 2022)

I have the sheet metal housing off my power steering pump and I need to add a AN fitting to it for an extra drain line for my hydro boost brakes.  The housing has been cleaned and bead blasted and I'm using an allen bolt to hold the fitting in place for welding.

The housing has been assembled with soldering I believe.  The fitting is mild steel.  Should this be welded or brazed?


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## extropic (Apr 6, 2022)

Silver solder would be my first choice. Otherwise, braze it.

The differences in material thickness make that a difficult weld joint, IMHO.


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## alloy (Apr 6, 2022)

Yes that was why I was asking because of the thickness.

Just not after several hours of searching I found out a ps pump off a 2010 2500 yukon has hydro boost and the pump has provisions for 2 return lines.  It's only $72 and in stock at autozone.  

For the difficuly in welding it up and I want to get this fixed as soon as I can I'll just buy the new pump.  

Dang I'm tired after doing all that searching, but it paid off.


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## matthewsx (Apr 6, 2022)

Buy, and braze.

brazing is a great tool to have in the arsenal for classic car work, practice whenever you can.

John


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## aliva (Apr 6, 2022)

You could TIG the joint, but due to the material thickness your TIG skills would have to be in  the expert range otherwise silver solde,r as it's easier to control the heat and not blowing thru the base material


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## alloy (Apr 7, 2022)

I have a guy that is definitely an expert tig welder but he's moving his shop and bought a home at the same time, so he has no definite time when he will be back doing work again.

I have never even tried to use silver solder.  I don't have a torch setup now.

I've asked for recommendations here locally for people to weld, and I get replies from people and shops that they can do anything, no job too small and I send them pics and never hear from them again.

So I gave up and went to autozone and bought the ps pump with the extra return line on the housing.  With tax and core charge cost me $100, but it fixed the problem.  I really don't like where the extra return line is and how it sticks out of the housing.  Comes out in a bad spot and the line I have running to it looks terrible where it is, but not choice.  I have it on and everything is working.  If I can get the fitting welded or soldered  for the other housing I'll change the housing because of how ugly the line location looks.

Last thing I have to do with welding (other than the exhaust) is make up the rear wheel studs and have the nuts tack welded on.  Manual Mac another member on here close to me has graciously offered to tack them on for me.   I get the wheel spacers in tomorrow I hope and I can measure exactly how long I want the studs to be.  Then I can set up a time to get them tacked on.


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## JFL4066 (Apr 9, 2022)

Silver solder!  Clean it. clean it, and clean it. Flux it well and solder. and BTW to remove the glass-like flux after soldering, put in boiling water for a few minutes. 
Did a fair amount of repairs in the dairy industry. All stainless steel.


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## Flyinfool (Apr 9, 2022)

Just do not forget your silver soldered SS parts in the passivating solution overnight or you will have nice clean shiny SS parts ready to be silver soldered in the morning....

The pasivating solution will eat away every trace of the silver solder.....


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## alloy (Apr 9, 2022)

Well guys I'm convinced that silver solder is the way to go, but not having a torch setup it ain't gonna happen.  No one I've contacted even wants to touch it even trying to weld it, and I'm assuming silver soldering is more of a home shop old timer (like me) deal.

I'd really love to get this done and change out the new power steering pump because of how the return line is routed, but it is what it is for now.  At least the car is running.

If anyone here can do it I'll send it to you and gladly pay you for your time.


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## JFL4066 (May 5, 2022)

Hi alloy,

If you still are looking to get it silver soldered. I can do it for you.


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## alloy (May 5, 2022)

Yes I am still looking.

I'll PM you.

Thanks!!!


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## Gaffer (May 5, 2022)

alloy said:


> Yes I am still looking.
> 
> I'll PM you.
> 
> Thanks!!!


I could be wrong, but don't air conditioner repairmen use silver solder in their work? Perhaps you could find someone local who would do it.


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## alloy (May 5, 2022)

I hadn't thought of that, good point.  

But  JFL4066 offered and I'd rather pay a fellow hobby machinist to do it.  

When I couldn't find anyone to do this I broke down and bought another ps pump that had a return line on it.  It works but the return line comes out right above the a-arm and looks like crap.  Yes it's a lot of work to change the pump just because of how it looks, but my engine compartment is the best looking part of the car.


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## pontiac428 (May 5, 2022)

The fittings on the spam can you blasted are furnace brazed.  They dope the parts with filler and fuse them in a furnace.  It controls thermal expansion so well with slow heating and cooling that the parts don't warp.  You would have that problem with a torch.  Maybe.  It might do well to partially submerge the part as if doing a radiator repair.  TIG would make a fine weld, but that is a lot of heat input.  The low pressure side would probably be fine with silver solder (hard solder).  I don't think the joint is the problem, it's the heat that I'd be concerned with.


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## Just for fun (May 5, 2022)

How about using Silicon Bronze with a TIG?   You wouldn't have to get it as hot.  You could do a little at a time and let it cool in between.


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## alloy (May 23, 2022)

I want to say thanks to John for brazing up my housing.  Really nice job. Looks great. 

Now I have to tear the front of the engine off to put it on.  

The fun never quits.  But I tell my wife this keeps me out of bars and from chasing wild women. 

She said the wild women would be cheaper.


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## JFL4066 (May 23, 2022)

Thanks Dan. No rest for the weary! BTW what's a bar? LOL. 

FYI for everyone reading this thread... Silver soldering would not work in this case. There was very little metal contact area between the fitting and metal cover. A ring about 0.020" wide to be precise.  Silver soldering, like all soldering requires a fair amount of mutual contact area for strength. I went for TIG Silicon Bronze. Very good for tight localized heat. I was also going to braze the inside only for appearance reasons but could not get my stubby TIG torch in there and lay a complete bead. Ended up brazing it with a continuous bead around the OD of the fitting. This will also give it added strength from the vibrations on a motor vehicle. Don't want the oil line/fitting coming off!


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## extropic (May 23, 2022)

JFL4066 said:


> Thanks Dan. No rest for the weary! BTW what's a bar? LOL.
> 
> FYI for everyone reading this thread... Silver soldering would not work in this case. There was very little metal contact area between the fitting and metal cover. A ring about 0.020" wide to be precise.  Silver soldering, like all soldering requires a fair amount of mutual contact area for strength. I went for TIG Silicon Bronze. Very good for tight localized heat. I was also going to braze the inside only for appearance reasons but could not get my stubby TIG torch in there and lay a complete bead. Ended up brazing it with a continuous bead around the OD of the fitting. This will also give it added strength from the vibrations on a motor vehicle. Don't want the oil line/fitting coming off!


 I recommended silver solder based on my assumptions of the fitting/hole configuration. I assumed the hole in the reservoir was approximately the same diameter as the hole through the fitting. That would leave substantial faying surface area for a good silver solder joint. Apparently my assumptions were false. I should have asked @alloy to show the back side of the fitting and related dimensions.

Your solution is top notch.


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## alloy (May 26, 2022)

JFL4066 said:


> Thanks Dan. No rest for the weary! BTW what's a bar? LOL.


Don't remember anymore, been 20 years now since I've been in one.  

Good news on my welding class.  Apparently the original instructor is MIA so the women instructor has committed to the class.  I just paid for summer and fall classes.  But the thing I don't like is the 1 month between the end and start of the next class.


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## JFL4066 (May 26, 2022)

What are they teaching?  Sitck, MIG, TIG? Or a little of everything?

Some of the best welders I have ever worked with were the ladies. 
Outstanding hand and eye coordination.

Use the off time to practice.


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## Larry$ (May 26, 2022)

alloy said:


> but not having a torch setup it ain't gonna happen.


Buy a decent propane torch and do a little practice on some scrap. It's pretty easy, just clean the surfaces well. I've got the flux made for silver solder and it works well. I'm no expert! The silver solder I use doesn't have a lot of silver in it but if flows very nicely & wicks into the joint.  There are lots of different silver solder alloys or silver brazing alloys. I've used it to fasten carbide to tools and it has always held.


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## alloy (May 26, 2022)

Well it's technically a "metal art" class.  You can use any of the equipment you want to as long as your using it safely.  I chose tig. Later I may try mig, or some stick.

There is one lady in there that brings in stacks of scoop shovels and cuts patterns in them, I'm assuming to sell.  I didn't think you could make parts to sell there, but it's not any of my concern.

Everybody knows everyone, all of them have been taking the class for a long time and are surprised a new guy (me) actually got a spot.  They cap it at 10 students.   Awhile back I donated an old stove to the program for them to use doing powder coating and the guy instructor that's missing got me in I believe. So I got rid of the stove for free, going to a good cause, and got in the class.  A win, win, win for me.

I'll practice maybe this weekend, the pyrex gas saver stuff will be in today.  I'd practice today but I'm going to the muffer shop to get the tail pipes fitted up and welded on my nova.


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## JFL4066 (May 27, 2022)

I spent my youth oxy-acet gas welding and cutting. Old school but it teaches you heat control. Later in my teens I started doing a lot of arc welding. I didn't get into TIG until 15 years ago. The new machines have a tremendous amount of control which I believe can be a detriment for beginners. Instead of learning puddle control and electrode angle, you are worrying about frequency, pulse rise and fall and such. One thing I did learn lately... pickup a really good pair of those reading glasses in different strengths (I'm 62) It really helps in seeing the puddle and tip! I also spend a lot of time getting good support for my torch hand using blocks, clamps, etc. Helps tremendously in getting  a steady bead.

Learn on 1/8" steel first. Flat and fillet welds. THEN go to sheet metal. You don't want to be burning thru sheet metal while starting out.

Sounds like a nice class. Have fun!


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## alloy (May 28, 2022)

Tonight I tried aluminum.  When its' going well it's easier than steel, but it goes bad FAST. She set the machine to pulse.

First aluminum weld is on the left.  It got better in some of the welds, and worse on others.  Need to get better ending the weld.  I found it goes bad in a heartbeat. Trying to be consistent.  Ran out of room on this plate and went with a thicker plate and higher amps.  Had to keep going higher amps to get it to not ball up.  I actually found welding aluminum was easier than steel when it's going well.

The miller has a water cooled torch, and mine doesn't. (everlast 200dx) I'm not sure I can add a water cooler to it or not.  Everlast cooler is $400, water cooled torch is $230 if I can add it.  The instructor said I could weld a short time without a cooler.  For now I'm just exploring the possibilities.  Welding aluminum only for a short time it will be hard to practice.  

I know I still need to practice on steel, but I was encouraged tonight with my welds in aluminum.  Got a long ways to go, but this made me feel good.  It's a 2 hour class and when she came around and said time to cleanup I couldn't believe it had been 2 hours. 

Only one more class to go this quarter. Next quarter doesn't start til July


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## JFL4066 (May 28, 2022)

Not bad at all Dan for starting out. Aluminum welding does demand tighter heat control. Just need to reverse direction a bit at the end and feather off the current to fill the craters. A water cooled torch is the way to go, especially if you are doing a lot of aluminum.


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## alloy (May 31, 2022)

Since this thread is about welding I'll continue with a different part I need to have welded.

This is my latest transmission conversion and I need to first make sure it can be welded, and then find someone locally that can weld them as they come in.  I know a guy and I'm going to try and take it to him this week and see what he says.  He has welded a cast aluminum  bell housing for me before and done a great job.

The first stage of welding is to weld in the sleeve.  I realize that at the bottom of the sleeve it's impossible to get a tig torch in there, and I plan on using epoxy to seal that section up.  Someone with a spool gun may be able to do t, but I'm not sure of that.  I'm hoping that it can be welded most of the way around.  And really hoping that the sleeve won't distort too much from the heat.  A housing with an o-ring goes in there with a speedometer gear.  I'd thought about making the sleeve under size then running a reamer in it,  but I've found that reamers usually don't cut on size every time, or any time for that matter.  It's a .875 diameter bore.

The second part of the job is to weld the 1/2" spacer onto the side of the sleeve for a retaining bolt.  I made a small fixture to hold the spacer in place when it's being welded.

So, let me know what you think of this.  Other than welding I don't know of any way to do this.


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## JFL4066 (Jun 1, 2022)

That sleeve/boss is relatively thin wall compared to its diameter. I would plan on boring sleeve undersize and ream with an expandable reamer if diameter is critical.  Why not bore housing and make it a press fit. TIG weld from the inside?  With all of the CNC milling services available now, why not have the sleeve and small side boss machined as one piece?


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## extropic (Jun 1, 2022)

I would like to see and understand what the inside of the casting/assembly looks like.

When I get back to WA, I'll contact you to get together.


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## alloy (Jun 2, 2022)

Yes it is thin and did distort when it was welded.  I figured it would and I'll probably just have a solid piece welded in and then drill and possibly  ream or use a my boring head on it.   The hole diameter is .875 and it needs to be within about .875 to .877 with a good finish.  A steel housing goes into it with an o-ring. My experience with reamers is that pretty much they never cut on size.  Especially the larger ones like I need.  I've seen expandable reamers that have multiple blades and when I worked machining aircraft parts we gave them a good try on our VMC's and non of them worked with a crap.  I did find one we use that had a set screw in the end to expand it and it worked so so. 

If you take a look at the pics there is no place to bore the housing.  I barely have room to make a flat bottom for the sleeve to sit without breaking through the other side of the housing.

Here is a pic of the onside of the housing.  I really can't see how to weld it from the inside.


Yes I could make a sleeve with a tab on the side.  I do this for anther conversion I do.  It takes a 1-1/2" x 2" piece of aluminum that cost me $24 to have just a 1/4" wide tab on one end.  1st op takes 16 minutes on my vmc, 8 minutes on my turning center, and then 6 more minutes back on the mill.   With using the round bat stock I cut my materail cost substantially, cut my machine time. Also if you take a look at the pic below by leaving the small part off allows the large sleeve to be welded most of the way around. I've marked with a felt pen where he was able to weld. Then the small part is added later.  At the bottom of the sleeve it's not possible to weld it, so I'll use epoxy to seal that section. I use the same epoxy on 4 other of my conversions.



extropic​
When are you going to be back in town?


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## extropic (Jun 2, 2022)

Sorry Dan. I have no idea when I'm returning to WA. Should be within the next few months. I'll contact you.
It looks like you're doing what can be done with the trans housing mod. The picture of the interior shows what I was hoping for isn't feasible.
I'll keep thinking about it.


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## alloy (Jun 2, 2022)

Look forward to seeing you when you get back.

I was also thinking about trying some of those low temp aluminum brazing rods.  I bought some mapp gas cylinders today, but see that I can't use my propane torch head with them.  I saw one guy on youtube using the rods on a housing and he preheated the housing in a BBQ.  I thought that ws pretty ingenious of him.


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## alloy (Sep 30, 2022)

Getting the hang of it finally.


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## Just for fun (Sep 30, 2022)

Heck Yeah..  That looks really good!


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## wachuko (Sep 30, 2022)

alloy said:


> I want to say thanks to John for brazing up my housing.  Really nice job. Looks great.
> 
> Now I have to tear the front of the engine off to put it on.
> 
> ...



That reminds me of a saying my friend would use often… “I spent most of my money on women, whiskey, and motorcycles. The rest, I just wasted.”

But yes, wife is happy because she opens the garage door and I am there instead of…


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## GT-6 Racer (Sep 30, 2022)

If you have Tig, Tig brazing with silicon bronze rod is a fantastic way to make high strength joints on parts like this.  You don’t melt the base metal and the heat control is far better than oxy acetylene. Cleaner finished product.


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