# Did I Goof or Junk V-Block Part



## angelfj1 (Jan 24, 2017)

Last week was the first time I had a chance to use my new V-Block Set, a gift from my wife.  I w as attempting to hold a length of 1-inch alum. round stock prior to milling a flat.  The V-Blocks in this set, include a U-Shaped "yolk" that is used to hold the stock in place.  After placing the alum. in the "V" I threaded the holder finger tight in the block.  Then I positioned the block on the table u sing the X-Y adjusters  and indicated the center line of my stock.  I used a short piece of drill rod (there is a hole in the knurled thumb nut portion of the screw) to snug up the threaded holding screw on the yolk and the yolk promptly broke in half.  I want to emphasize that the snugging was just a bit more than finger tight - any less and my material would surely have moved as soon as the end mill touched it.  See photos below.    If you look closely, the material is surely die cast mystery metal with a narrow cross section.  It broke exactly at the weakest point .  Did I do something wrong or is this a poor design?  I called Fowler and they are "looking into it".  I'm asking because I'm an amateur at shop techniques but my engineering background tells me that there should have been a more generous cross section at the drilled hole or stronger material.

Your comments are welcome.
Best regards,  Frank


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## chips&more (Jan 24, 2017)

Welcome, if you look at the hold down screw and it’s surface area. It’s not meant for any real securing force like a milling operation. And I could be wrong? But I think Fowler is Import brand? When you buy Import it’s a crap shoot on quality..Dave


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## angelfj1 (Jan 24, 2017)

chips&more said:


> Welcome, if you look at the hold down screw and it’s surface area. It’s not meant for any real securing force like a milling operation. And I could be wrong? But I thing Fowler is Import brand? When you buy Import it’s a crap shoot on quality..Dave



Dave, Thanks for the reply.  I agree about the variable quality of imported products, but if the screw isn't intended to  "hold-down" your stock, what's it's purpose?  There were no instructions supplied.

Do you own a V-Block set?  How do you hold stock in the "V" ?


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## chips&more (Jan 24, 2017)

Yes, the yoke and screw are made to hold things down or in keep place. But, it’s not built like a Mac truck kinda thing. Everything has their limits! Boy, if I showed you all the end mill cutters that I exceeded limits on! I’m always testing the limits on cutters for some reason ?


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## Tony Wells (Jan 24, 2017)

Fowler used to be top shelf stuff, but I suppose like many others, they could have succumbed to the price wars just to survive. Those clamps, as far as I know, are more for holding things while inspecting. Like if you needed to accurately get measurements from 2 axes, you can clamp a part, measure, then flip it on its side and measure again, assured of a pretty precise 90° rotation. 

If I was going to machine something (and I have) in vee blocks, I would use a regular hold-down clamp and the tee slots on the table. Might or might not use the clamp that comes with the block or not, just to help get set up. But not to machine.


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## RandyM (Jan 24, 2017)

Yeah, I just broke an end mill last weekend.

The way I see it on this v-block clamp is, it is only meant hold parts for verification (measuring). If I need to use the v-block as a clamp for machining, I always use a proper hold down clamp.


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## angelfj1 (Jan 24, 2017)

RandyM said:


> Yeah, I just broke an end mill last weekend.
> 
> The way I see it on this v-block clamp is, it is only meant hold parts for verification (measuring). If I need to use the v-block as a clamp for machining, I always use a proper hold down clamp.





"I always use a proper hold down clamp". Well. as I said, I'm a novice. So, what would be the preferred way to hold, let's say a piece of 0.75" round alum. horizontally on a mill table, for milling a flat or drilling a through-hole.  A photo would be nice.

Regards,

Frank


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## Bob Korves (Jan 24, 2017)

Yep, toe clamps or similar to hold the work for machining.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 24, 2017)

angelfj1 said:


> "I always use a proper hold down clamp". Well. as I said, I'm a novice. So, what would be the preferred way to hold, let's say a piece of 0.75" round alum. horizontally on a mill table, for milling a flat or drilling a through-hole.  A photo would be nice.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Frank


Try something like this, Frank:


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## tomh (Jan 24, 2017)

There are two types of V blocks. I believe the ones  you would need are the ones with socket head screws that hold a flat support across the top with inverted v on them.    I cant seem to get a photo of them to post


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## David S (Jan 24, 2017)

Frank thank you for bringing this up.  I immediately went and checked mine..My hold down yoke is magnetic and appears to be made from  some sort of steel extrusion that has been chopped off, drilled and tapped for the threaded rod.  It seems robust and the hole in the knob for a tommy bar suggests that you can reef down on it.

However your experience lets me look at this in a new light.

David


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## RandyM (Jan 24, 2017)

angelfj1 said:


> "I always use a proper hold down clamp". Well. as I said, I'm a novice. So, what would be the preferred way to hold, let's say a piece of 0.75" round alum. horizontally on a mill table, for milling a flat or drilling a through-hole.  A photo would be nice.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Frank



Frank,

On a 0.75 diameter bar I would just use a v-block and clamp them both in my vise. No hold downs or other clamps needed. The V would be horizontal and the jaw of the vise would clamp the shaft and the block together. Sorry, don't have any pics of that. does this help?


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## RandyM (Jan 24, 2017)

OK, went and stole a pic off the net.


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## Tony Wells (Jan 24, 2017)

David, I believe if you ask the mfg, you will be told that hole is for _releasing_ the clamp in the case of someone tightening it beyond a normal hand tight with the knurled knob. For instance a big strong guy putting a part in and a weaker person, perhaps a lady who doesn't have quite the gorilla grip that a big guy might have.


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## David S (Jan 24, 2017)

Tony thank you.  When I look at the diameter of the screw, it certainly doesn't look all that robust.  I can see it for light drilling etc, but not for heavy duty milling.

David


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## Bob Korves (Jan 24, 2017)

David S said:


> Tony thank you.  When I look at the diameter of the screw, it certainly doesn't look all that robust.  I can see it for light drilling etc, but not for heavy duty milling.
> 
> David


Really not for machining use at all, only for layout and testing purposes.


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## David S (Jan 24, 2017)

Really not for machining use at all, only for layout and testing purposes.




I think we can see that now, but if you read the fowler write up they say it is good for grinding, drilling, milling etc.  They just don't say HOW it should be used.

David


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## Bob Korves (Jan 24, 2017)

David S said:


> Really not for machining use at all, only for layout and testing purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can certainly use the blocks for machining purposes, just not the included clamps.  

Sadly, it is often difficult to get replacement clamps that will fit, and they are not trivial to make.  I came into two beautiful Starrett 567 blocks, missing the clamps, #567B, which Starrett sells for $46.00 each, plus shipping, and no one is selling them more than a couple dollars cheaper...


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## tq60 (Jan 24, 2017)

That clamp is to hold work to v block for SETUP.

Look for a table clamp set that has the t nuts with assorted lengths of double ended threaded bolts with stepped lift parts and flat bridges.

They are universal table clamping sets and are used to clamp the work down to the table.

Using ] hone so no links or photos but others should provide.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## angelfj1 (Jan 24, 2017)

Gee, thank you all for the great replies.  It appears that I misused the V-Block and I will chalk this up to my education.  I guess at nearly 70 years old I have a lot to learn.  A few minutes ago, I received an email from Fowler.  They're sending me a new clamp.  I never asked them for this or really expected it, but my hat's off to them for the nice gesture!

Best regards,  Frank


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## Reeltor (Jan 24, 2017)

Frank,

Thanks for posting, in the past I used the clamps to hold stock for drilling and light milling.  Like you, I figured that was what clamps were for.  I won't be doing that any more.

Mike


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## rwm (Jan 24, 2017)

Could that be brazed back together and re-tapped?
Robert


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## EmilioG (Jan 24, 2017)

I own two sets of Starrett matched V blocks.  I use them all the time to hole work for drilling and pressed up against the fixed jaw of a vise,
that is no problem. I guess it depends on the quality. Starrett makes one of the best V blocks on the market, and mine are older Starrett.
Hardened steel, well made.  Never had a problem.


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## EmilioG (Jan 24, 2017)

From Starrett:

V-Blocks come in a variety of styles to suit the numerous requirements of machinists. They are intended for general shop use and layout work, as well as for holding stock in place during light-duty milling, drilling, and grinding operations. All clamp screws have a hole to help secure the workpiece.

I own two matched sets w/clamps, #567 and #278, never had a problem. light drilling and milling.


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## Billh50 (Jan 25, 2017)

I have really torqued the clamps on my V blocks with no problem. But I think many of the older tools were of better quality. Today's tools, unless you pay top dollar, are made for profit only. Some corners get cut. Heat treatments are not as good as they once were because the parts are made over seas where things are not watched as close. Sometimes you might find something good for a decent price. But then the next batch from the same place might not be as good.


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## Randall Marx (Jan 25, 2017)

I'm sorry this happened to you, but am very glad you informed all of us about the issue. This information will surely help many avoid the same irritation later (like ME). I also find it encouraging that Fowler still stands behind their tools and is making it right by providing a replacement for you. I have had good luck with some Fowler measurement tools and am glad to hear that they still care.


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## brino (Jan 25, 2017)

My first V-block came used, without a clamp. I used it initially with table clamps.

Then I had a job that would be easier with a real clamp, so I scrounged in the off cuts and came up with this:





It ain't pretty, it was thrown together quick with the stick welder for that one job, but now gets used regularly for holding work.

So you could make some clamps up custom and use them when you really need to crank down on something, and save the replacement Fowler part for holding things while measuring.

-brino

(The legs aren't really splayed as that middle picture angle seems to show)


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## Bill Gruby (Jan 25, 2017)

Fowler is still located in Newton Mass. for North American operations.

http://www.fowlerprecision.com/About-Us.html

 "Billy G"


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## kd4gij (Jan 25, 2017)

I use V blocks in the vise like Randy showed. You can use them vertical also.
As said the clamp is for setup.


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## 4GSR (Jan 29, 2017)

The newer vee block clamps are investment cast castings of low grade steel.  Probably Chinese grade C10 which is equivalent to our grade 1010 if you could get it.  Investment casting in general has no grain structure to it and added to the failure along with the thin section around the screw.  The older vee block clamps were drop forged of a good alloy steel, which could be bent into a pretzel and not break! 

Has anyone had a vee block split into at the bottom of the vee?  I have.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 29, 2017)

4gsr said:


> The newer vee block clamps are investment cast castings of low grade steel.  Probably Chinese grade C10 which is equivalent to our grade 1010 if you could get it.  Investment casting in general has no grain structure to it and added to the failure along with the thin section around the screw.  The older vee block clamps were drop forged of a good alloy steel, which could be bent into a pretzel and not break!
> 
> Has anyone had a vee block split into at the bottom of the vee?  I have.


Nearly anything is possible if you have a 100 ton press...    Sharp corners can cause hardened parts to break at the corners due to the creation of stress risers.


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## 4GSR (Jan 31, 2017)

Yep, that will do it.  The one's I saw split were made of cast iron and came from either Japan or Taiwan.  Don't remember.  You can still buy them, I have a set in the bottom of my tool box that I've never used but have them if I ever need them.  Ken


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## Highsider (Feb 2, 2017)

angelfj1 said:


> Last week was the first time I had a chance to use my new V-Block Set, a gift from my wife.  I w as attempting to hold a length of 1-inch alum. round stock prior to milling a flat.  The V-Blocks in this set, include a U-Shaped "yolk" that is used to hold the stock in place.  After placing the alum. in the "V" I threaded the holder finger tight in the block.  Then I positioned the block on the table u sing the X-Y adjusters  and indicated the center line of my stock.  I used a short piece of drill rod (there is a hole in the knurled thumb nut portion of the screw) to snug up the threaded holding screw on the yolk and the yolk promptly broke in half.  I want to emphasize that the snugging was just a bit more than finger tight - any less and my material would surely have moved as soon as the end mill touched it.  See photos below.    If you look closely, the material is surely die cast mystery metal with a narrow cross section.  It broke exactly at the weakest point .  Did I do something wrong or is this a poor design?  I called Fowler and they are "looking into it".  I'm asking because I'm an amateur at shop techniques but my engineering background tells me that there should have been a more generous cross section at the drilled hole or stronger material.
> 
> Your comments are welcome.
> Best regards,  Frank
> ...


Another case of low quality Chinese heat treating.   It was hardened but never drawn.    Brittle as glass.   Always check the country of origin befor you buy ANYTHING for your shop.
It's not cast anything.   It's also not equivalent to American 1010 as that would have held a lot more pressure and then just deformed.
Look at the grain structure of the broken piece.    It's finer than cast iron.   The piece was hardened to be as brittle as glass and just left that way.   Buy just about anything but Chinese.


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## Ken from ontario (Feb 3, 2017)

tomh said:


> There are two types of V blocks. I believe the ones  you would need are the ones with socket head screws that hold a flat support across the top with inverted v on them.    I cant seem to get a photo of them to post


This set is not top quality  of course but the design of the clamps seem to be more suitable to hold down on a round stock, notice the inverted V on the clamps,the size of these v blocks is exactly what I'm looking for,1.3/8" x 1.3/8".


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## Bob Korves (Feb 3, 2017)

Ken from ontario said:


> This set is not top quality  of course but the design of the clamps seem to be more suitable to hold down on a round stock, notice the inverted V on the clamps,the size of these v blocks is exactly what I'm looking for,1.3/8" x 1.3/8".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They will probably work well for you, Ken.  Even with that design, go easy on tightening down on the work...


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## kd4gij (Feb 11, 2017)

I have used that type on a surface grinder but never on a mill.


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