# New to me SB Mill, need options for tooling



## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

Looking for collet options for this mill. I have watched utube vids, done searches, asked machinets I know , and I am still confused.
Will R8 chuck right up? Im not seeing a draw bar on top...

Model #

ML 6956


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

Not enough info to comment.


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

benmychree said:


> Not enough info to comment.


Thanks for the reply. I posted pics and the model#. What other info would you need? Measurements? other pics, etc?


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

Close up views of the spindle, and is there any hole above the spindle that would take a drawbar, also take a pic of the other side of the nut pictured.


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)




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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

It appears that the collet attachment is removable, but I have no idea how it is retained, it looks like the spindle taper may be a NMTB 30, as I think I am looking at driving lugs or keys on the spindle; the pics are not well lighted not very clear to be sure of what I think I'm seeing.


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

benmychree said:


> It appears that the collet attachment is removable, but I have no idea how it is retained, it looks like the spindle taper may be a NMTB 30, as I think I am looking at driving lugs or keys on the spindle; the pics are not well lighted not very clear to be sure of what I think I'm seeing.


So you need some pics with flash of the end of the spindle?


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)




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## BGHansen (Jul 27, 2020)

Looks like you have this model (attached PDF).  The picture below is from page 7.  Part# 4 is a collet chuck.  Part# 3 are collets which according to the parts list were 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4".  I got these from vintagemachinery.org.  It sure looks like an NMTB 30.

CHECK OUT THE PIN UP GIRL ogling the mill (from one of the sales fliers)!  I can't recall my wife ever looking that lovingly at any tools in my shop.

Bruce


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)




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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

BGHansen said:


> Looks like you have this model (attached PDF).  The picture below is from page 7.  Part# 4 is a collet chuck.  Part# 3 are collets which according to the parts list were 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4".  I got these from vintagemachinery.org.  It sure looks like an NMTB 30.
> 
> CHECK OUT THE PIN UP GIRL ogling the mill (from one of the sales fliers)!  I can't recall my wife ever looking that lovingly at any tools in my shop.
> 
> ...


Thanks! 
Same here, I just get puzzled looks.

Also looking for operating manual. Did a search for that, only found parts list.

As it stands, I would need to measure the collet ID, and buy only end mills with that sized shaft?
Is the NMTB a respected setup? What else would work for tool holding in this design?


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## BGHansen (Jul 27, 2020)

Found another download on Vintage Machinery.  Here's the set up and instruction manual though the scan is really light.

Bruce


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## BGHansen (Jul 27, 2020)

I don't own a machine with the NMTB 30/40/50 spindles but the machines I've seen them on are metal-hogging wonders.  Seems like Vertical mills favor R8, horizontal and CNC machines use the NMTB.  Those drive lugs must make a lot of difference delivering torque from the spindle to the tool holder.

You may have to make collets or maybe find some Weldon-style holders that have your collet size.  I'm thinking there may be a straight shanked 3/4" (if that's your collet size) to a 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", etc. hole in the other end with a set screw to hold the end mill.

Bruce


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

Manual says it’s a No. 30 Milling Machine Taper. The face of the spindle has four bolt holes tapped 3/8”-16 for attaching milling cutters


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

I could not get the manual to download, but it appears that, looking at the parts picture thAt there are two angled setscrews, one on each side of the spindle , that when backed off, allow the collet accessory to be removed, they bear against flats machined into the collet body, hence there being no need for a drawbar.  It is very likely a modified 30 taper, the holes in the driving lugs have the setscrews in them.
My Fray vertical mill has the 30 taper spindle, but not the setscrews, but instead has a drawbar.


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

BGHansen said:


> Found another download on Vintage Machinery.  Here's the set up and instruction manual though the scan is really light.
> 
> Bruce


I searched that site and only came up with the parts list. Thanks


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

Is metal hogging wonder a good thing?

Not sure I understand the last paragraph....


BGHansen said:


> I don't own a machine with the NMTB 30/40/50 spindles but the machines I've seen them on are metal-hogging wonders.  Seems like Vertical mills favor R8, horizontal and CNC machines use the NMTB.  Those drive lugs mush make a lot of difference delivering torque from the spindle to the tool holder.
> 
> You may have to make collets or maybe find some Weldon-style holders that have your collet size.  I'm thinking there may be a straight shanked 3/4" (if that's your collet size) to a 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", etc. hole in the other end with a set screw to hold the end mill.
> 
> Bruce


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

I like the 30 taper spindle because it does not require nearly as much vertical clearance to exchange tool holders as compared to R-8, plus the positive drive with the driving keys that do not shear off like the R-8 tiny pin up in the spindle bore.  Both my Fray vertical and my #2 Brown & Sharpe horizontal with vert. attachment use 30 taper in the vertical mode, and with a adaptor, I can use the 30s in the #40 horizontal spindle.


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## Choiliefan (Jul 27, 2020)

I had a Kondia vertical mill which used 30 taper tool holders a long time ago.
Had the basic fractional sizes of end mill holders and it was a terrific machine.
The advantage of tool holders over collets is the cutters are held in place in a rigid manner by set-screw and will not feed out when pressed with heavy cuts.


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

So where is a good place to get starter  set of collets and end mills for 30 taper?


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## itsme_Bernie (Jul 27, 2020)

Connor1 said:


> Thanks!
> Same here, I just get puzzled looks.
> 
> Also looking for operating manual. Did a search for that, only found parts list.
> ...



I am pretty sure NMTB 30 is a more modern machine taper.  If I am wrong, I still think it is a more "wanted" type of taper for professional machines, for instance.  I have a BP, with an R8 spindle.  It is fine for me, but many truly industrial machines have NMTB style spindle tapers.  R8 is probably more widespread, but there is plenty of 30 tooling out there.


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

NMTB is National Machine Tool Builders, an organization to promote and set standards of design for machine tools; the NMTB standards for spindle nose design is of quite long standing with the numbered milling machine tapers perhaps going back as far as the 1920s, and were well established by the 1930s, the numbers start at 10 and progress by even 10 increments, at least up to 60.  The one shown on the SB mill is a variation of the drawbar type, another is the Brown & Sharpe camlock, where there is a cutout in the side of each adapter or cutting tool that is engaged by a cam through one side of the spindle.  There is a quick change tool system for milling spindles that also uses the angled setscrew retention feature; I do not know if it uses the same NMTB taper adapters as the SB mill.


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

What name or other info is stamped on the collet adapter?


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

Universal eng co mil


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

Measuring with my very precise HF plastic calipers, it appears the collet opening is 3/4 inch. So can I use any end mill with a 3/4 inch shaft? What about the set screws? Does one side need to be flat?


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

The setscrews are not for holding an end mill, but rather they hold the collet adapter into the 30 taper spindle,  I hoped that the name on the adapter might give a clue as to what collet it uses.  There was another quick change system made by Universal, called Quick Switch, maybe same compamy made both, perhaps a favorite search on E bay may find you some pieces or info.


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

Does the collet look like this?     http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/DT_Collet.html


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

benmychree said:


> The setscrews are not for holding an end mill, but rather they hold the collet adapter into the 30 taper spindle,  I hoped that the name on the adapter might give a clue as to what collet it uses.  There was another quick change system made by Universal, called Quick Switch, maybe same compamy made both, perhaps a favorite search on E bay may find you some pieces or info.


Yea, I took them out to get the adapter out, but it stayed put. Admittedly, I did not try very hard or knock it with a wrench or anything.

so a round 3/4 inch shank tool should chuck right up?


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## Connor1 (Jul 27, 2020)

benmychree said:


> Does the collet look like this?     http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/DT_Collet.html


Yes


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

Connor1 said:


> Yea, I took them out to get the adapter out, but it stayed put. Admittedly, I did not try very hard or knock it with a wrench or anything.
> 
> so a round 3/4 inch shank tool should chuck right up?


Yes


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2020)

It should come out with perhaps a whack with a soft hammer., With my drawbar style, a whack is needed to dislodge them.


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## Connor1 (Jul 28, 2020)

benmychree said:


> The setscrews are not for holding an end mill, but rather they hold the collet adapter into the 30 taper spindle,  I hoped that the name on the adapter might give a clue as to what collet it uses.  There was another quick change system made by Universal, called Quick Switch, maybe same compamy made both, perhaps a favorite search on E bay may find you some pieces or info.


This is what u r referring to?


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## Connor1 (Jul 28, 2020)

benmychree said:


> I like the 30 taper spindle because it does not require nearly as much vertical clearance to exchange tool holders as compared to R-8, plus the positive drive with the driving keys that do not shear off like the R-8 tiny pin up in the spindle bore.  Both my Fray vertical and my #2 Brown & Sharpe horizontal with vert. attachment use 30 taper in the vertical mode, and with a adaptor, I can use the 30s in the #40 horizontal spindle.


I backed out the set screws to see if the tool holder would fall out. It stayed put. I gently tapped it, but it stayed. To get it to drop out do I have to give it a sharp wack with a small hammer? Am I missing something here? A clamp lever?


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## benmychree (Jul 28, 2020)

Connor1 said:


> This is what u r referring to?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it is.


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## benmychree (Jul 28, 2020)

Connor1 said:


> I backed out the set screws to see if the tool holder would fall out. It stayed put. I gently tapped it, but it stayed. To get it to drop out do I have to give it a sharp wack with a small hammer? Am I missing something here? A clamp lever?


There would have been a lever/spanner to tighten/untighten the collet, yours looks like the operation was mostly done with a hammer.


Connor1 said:


> I backed out the set screws to see if the tool holder would fall out. It stayed put. I gently tapped it, but it stayed. To get it to drop out do I have to give it a sharp wack with a small hammer? Am I missing something here? A clamp lever?


Yes, sharp whack with small hammer, perhaps brass or copper.


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## Connor1 (Jul 30, 2020)

so I bought the following to get started. It has a 3/4 Collett so I thought a 3/8 and 5/8 would be a good match.  Also bought a small set of Shars end mills, as from what I read, my learning curve may result in some abuse of tooling until I get a feel for speeds and feeds.

Any advise/opinions are welcome!


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## benmychree (Jul 30, 2020)

A 1/2" collet would finish out the set


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## Connor1 (Jul 30, 2020)

just bought a 1/2 inch DT collet to round out my set.
someone mentioned a mail change mill holder . I found this. Does 300 mean 30 taper?
What would this do for me exactly? Eliminate unscrewing the chuck?


	

		
			
		

		
	
You


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## Connor1 (Jul 30, 2020)

^^^^meant kwik change


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## benmychree (Jul 30, 2020)

The tool shown is used in the Universal Quick Switch holder, the lugs both tighten and eject the tool when the nut is operated, it would not work with your mill without the holder made to work with it.


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## Connor1 (Jul 30, 2020)

Is this one complete?


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## Choiliefan (Jul 31, 2020)

Duplicate post.


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## Connor1 (Jul 31, 2020)

Per earlier posts, set screws no drawbar.


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## Choiliefan (Jul 31, 2020)

This thread has been somewhat muddy due to my muddied mind.
I see how it works now.


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## Connor1 (Jul 31, 2020)

Choiliefan said:


> This thread has been somewhat muddy due to my muddied mind.
> I see how it works now.


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## Connor1 (Jul 31, 2020)

Np, need some the help I can get. No sure how the Kwik change works , so I’ll just stick with the Collet’s. All my end mills are 3/8 now anyway.


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## Connor1 (Aug 8, 2020)

So I want to get all the oil and lube I need to get going. I found this chart in the manual. I’ve also read that the ways need “tacky” oil... so should I try to source the lubricants mentioned or go with something different?


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## Cooter Brown (Aug 8, 2020)

Some old machines are designed to release the arbor when the quill is slammed up to the top......


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## Connor1 (Aug 8, 2020)

Cooter Brown said:


> Some old machines are designed to release the arbor when the quill is slammed to the top of travel.....


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## Connor1 (Aug 8, 2020)

Got the tool holder out last night. A couple of sharp waves with a small hammer shocked it out.


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## Cooter Brown (Aug 8, 2020)

Post a picture of the tool holder taper....


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