# PM 1228vf-lb



## Aukai (Aug 18, 2017)

My very first lathe is ordered, now for the wait. I need advice on accessories, there are several listed on the machine page. The lathe, stand, and quick change post are what I think I need. Of the others available which should I get from PM, or source from outside. CL, etc are pretty much out from here, and other sources may have higher shipping charges. Thank you

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1228vf-lb/


----------



## mksj (Aug 18, 2017)

Trying to keep everything in budget, in addition to what you have indicated I would suggest the following for entry level use.
You will need a number of additional AXA holders for your QCTP. The QMT holders are good enough and very fairly priced (and you do not pay for shipping). I would plan on getting something like ten (total of 12 with the kit) additional 1/2" AXA holders (250-101) and at least two 5/8" AXA holders (250-101-XL). The latter because there are some cases where you may need to run and oversized tool. I would also get MASTER TURNING/BORING TOOL SET (INDXTS-AXA-MASTER), the CCMT/CCGT inserts are one of the most widely used insert, all the tooling in the set takes the same size insert, replacement inserts are readily available at very reasonable prices. I would get better CCMT/CCGT inserts at a later point, a number of us can point you to suggested alternates. This set will get you up and running, with good tooling and not spending 3-4X as much on higher quality tool holder which I do not feel in this setting you will notice any difference in performance. You also get the benefit of the QMT warranty and everything is shipped together at no additional cost. You will want a threading set, INDXTS-THD-1/2, the AG60 16ER external insert and  AG60 16IR internal Insert are very common and will allow threading in the 8-48 TPI range. Once again, a great starting point, with out busting the bank. I would ultimately get better inserts for all these tools, the difference in substantial, but learn with what you have.

I would strongly recommend getting an inexpensive DRO (PM 2 Axis Lathe DRO, 6×28 With .0001 Hi Res Cross Scale) basic unit with a slimline 1 micron for the X axis and a 5 micron for the Y. I would install it yourself, you save a lot of money and you learn a lot with the install. You can buy a similar DRO for  a bit less through online sellers, or through Asia sellers, but if you have any problems or questions forget it, and doubtful warranty. There are a number of online postings of the DRO install on this lathe.

You  most likely will need a 4J independent D1-4 chuck for odd shape work and also those circumstances where you need to be able to get have very low run out on the turning work, so like any type of barrel work.  QMT sells the CHUCK4J-8"D1-4 which is a beautiful chuck, but may be more that you want to spend. There are other Chinese 4J chucks of similar size for less, my issue in the past has been that the jaws are often poorly ground, and they are often poorly balanced causing a lot of vibration. Speak to QMT and see what is available if you need to go for something less expensive.  My general recommendation is that the stock 3J and a high quality 4J will be all that you should need for the most part. Ultimately consider an ER-40 D1-4 chuck (about $80), to hold smaller round round stock. This is a much less expensive path than a decent 5C setup which will be many times more expensive.

You will want a live center, doesn't need to be anything fancy (the machine only comes with a dead center). I prefer what is known as a CNC or extended point live center,  which allows you to work with smaller diameter stock and not have interference with the insert holder, but otherwise just get a standard point. You will need a tail stock chuck, preferably 5/8" (KDCMT3-16), I primarily use a keyless type for almost all my work on the lathe. Nothing super fancy, but you want a decent quality unit.

A starting point, you will need other items, such as indicators, calipers, micrometers, etc.
Mark


----------



## Aukai (Aug 18, 2017)

Getting ready for work, Ill go over this more today, thank you so much for responding.


----------



## brav65 (Aug 18, 2017)

mksj said:


> Trying to keep everything in budget, in addition to what you have indicated I would suggest the following for entry level use.
> You will need a number of additional AXA holders for your QCTP. The QMT holders are good enough and very fairly priced (and you do not pay for shipping). I would plan on getting something like ten (total of 12 with the kit) additional 1/2" AXA holders (250-101) and at least two 5/8" AXA holders (250-101-XL). The latter because there are some cases where you may need to run and oversized tool. I would also get MASTER TURNING/BORING TOOL SET (INDXTS-AXA-MASTER), the CCMT/CCGT inserts are one of the most widely used insert, all the tooling in the set takes the same size insert, replacement inserts are readily available at very reasonable prices. I would get better CCMT/CCGT inserts at a later point, a number of us can point you to suggested alternates. This set will get you up and running, with good tooling and not spending 3-4X as much on higher quality tool holder which I do not feel in this setting you will notice any difference in performance. You also get the benefit of the QMT warranty and everything is shipped together at no additional cost. You will want a threading set, INDXTS-THD-1/2, the AG60 16ER external insert and  AG60 16IR internal Insert are very common and will allow threading in the 8-48 TPI range. Once again, a great starting point, with out busting the bank. I would ultimately get better inserts for all these tools, the difference in substantial, but learn with what you have.
> 
> I would strongly recommend getting an inexpensive DRO (PM 2 Axis Lathe DRO, 6×28 With .0001 Hi Res Cross Scale) basic unit with a slimline 1 micron for the X axis and a 5 micron for the Y. I would install it yourself, you save a lot of money and you learn a lot with the install. You can buy a similar DRO for  a bit less through online sellers, or through Asia sellers, but if you have any problems or questions forget it, and doubtful warranty. There are a number of online postings of the DRO install on this lathe.
> ...




I have put a great deal of research and care into my advice....Whate he said!


----------



## barnbwt (Aug 18, 2017)

As an owner of a PM1228VFLB...be sure to check out the machine well when it arrives.  If the delivery crate is damaged at all, or the unit is the least bit dirty, do yourself a favor and send it back before getting attached.  I wish I had.  Despite its problems, I've still been able to make a lot of cool stuff on it, just not to the quality even a machine this size/heritage should be capable of; the PM1228VF is on paper, probably the best turn-key layout a new guy looking to learn could ask for.

-My feed rod (not lead screw) was cut about .04" off center so it binds/loads the apron & gears as it turns, which wouldn't be more than a wear/noise issue except
-The underside of the near-side ways where the gibs clamp were very badly machined* at the headstock (most used) end, so I basically don't have gib pressure controlling the apron from lifting up with every turn of the feed rod most of the time; causing waves in every feature cut using power feed (especially when apron center mass is past the near-side way).  Cut-spring is also made cripplingly terrible because of this, a repeated-.001" slide adjustment in X will return anywhere from a .000" to .005" change in diameter depending on cutting parameters (tool, speed, feed, material, stock size, Z position, etc)
-The clamp for the steady rest is absolute garbage; it will break the instant you apply torque to the bolt.  Make a solid steel replacement
-The change-gear knobs are really stupid.  As we all know, the gears never mesh that easily with these low-end Chinese geartrains, so oil-slicked round knobs were an awful feature, but obviously cheaper than drilling & tapping them for lever arms like every other lathe out there
-I understand they never did get a thread dial working for these; mine never arrived as promised at the time of purchase, but I recall reading here that it was useless for those who did receive one subsequently (either wrong number of teeth, or a stupid division of the dial face)
-The tension-set device in the cross slide is garbage, and will break the instant you try to reduce backlash in X; sadly I don't think there is a workaround without making a duplicate of proper steel or bronze/delrin.  It's a very crude way to reduce backlash anyway, so a replacement scheme is better.
-All gib adjustment grub screws are garbage & will split their heads when any tool torque is applied.  Outboard gib adjustment is flatly obnoxious since the screws on the underside are almost inaccessible but still come loose (that's more a general critique of this design style, but the loosening is definitely due to screw quality)
-Lathe stand is too flimsy to properly mount the machine.  Namely, the bracing across the two pillars/cabinets, which themselves are quite solid.  My machine immediately cut better as far as chatter/finish quality when I built a 1" welded tube stand & bolted it down.  The two cabinets will support a bench grinder and (one day) band saw, as they are sufficiently rigid for that.

The motor power is very nice for something you can run from an AC outlet.  It's been reliable as far as its performance has been consistent, and very easy to learn on, and the accessories it came with were fairly decent.  The T-slot slide is incredibly nice as far as modularity, and simple threaded-post tool holder mount far better than the usual T-slot.  It even runs pretty quiet, especially if yours doesn't have an egg-shaped drive train.  The tailstock is fairly solid for its size and can be rigidly clamped to the ways.  The features that weren't screwed up on mine seem accurate enough.  But it is not a nice machine by any stretch; the paint will soften & fall off the moment Vactra is applied to the ways, the castings are even rougher than the gear surfaces, the oil ports will constantly leak and burp oil, and you'll be forever re-tightening every Chinese-made threaded feature on the rig.  If your machine has the problems mine does, you'll be frustrated by the obvious missed potential the machine _should_ have already (as opposed to merely lusting for the capability of larger machines like most hobbyists).  If your machine was built to advertised spec and lacks these problems, it's a very good format for an introductory lathe provided you have the room, and before you know it you'll have a garage full of chucks, tool holders, collets, and Morse taper accessories (actually you'll have that even if it sucks, lol)

It's large enough that you can make a useful milling attachment for it; I used one to cut dovetails in steel for a 5.5"OD ball turner, and rectangular pockets in aluminum for a monocore silencer baffle.  With proper gib tension and proper design, I suspect a downright functional mill setup could be attained.

TCB

*"Machined" is the wrong term; there are angle-grinder marks all over the underside of the ways about 1/16" deep at most, where they obviously knocked too much material off getting the casting prepared for surface grinding.  I don't totally hold it against QMT since the factory filled in the gouges with Bondo paste which didn't soften & slough off for about a month.  At first I thought it was merely paint-drips, which were present on all the other wear surfaces of the machine.  The top-side grinding was nice enough, the underside grinding is at an angle that gets looser toward the headstock, which further compounds the gib-pressure issue.  Basically, I can adjust the gibs to sort of work at the left 10" & be too tight to use the right 10", or to work at the right 10" & be useless for the remainder.


----------



## Aukai (Aug 18, 2017)

Matt says he does not have the live center , so I will be in need of one. Mr 65 believe me I know how much effort it takes to research these issues, and to respond. I sincerely appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.


----------



## Aukai (Aug 18, 2017)

TCB, thank you , and also sorry you have issues. I really do hope mine is not going to be a repeat of yours.


----------



## barnbwt (Aug 18, 2017)

I largely agree with MKSJ's advice for this machine, with a few caveats:

-Unless odd-shaped stock is a must or your spindle nose is out of round (be sure to check this right away), seriously consider an ER40 or 5C collet through-chuck for the spindle (5C is bigger but uses up some of your traverse, is less precise, requires more collets, but is still more convenient in general) and especially for the tailstock.  Jacobs-style collet chucks are convenient, but the tailstock spindle is simply not rigid enough to keep a tool with so much stickout (like 4" + the tool) on center while cutting.  I was forever breaking center drills until I got the MT3-ER40 chuck, and suddenly everything cut easier, smoother, and straight (like, perfectly straight).  Was especially pronounced with chamber reaming operations (yeah, yeah, I shouldn't chamber with a rigid reamer, blah blah blah...)
-Anti-fatigue matt for the operator station
-Mount a 10$ LED or fluorescent light strip on the underside lip at the top of the backsplash for bright direct lighting of the whole bedway that you don't have to stare directly into
-Pick up a cheap used 1" & 2" micrometer for checking diameters, and a 6" caliper for lengths/depths; surface finish is too rough for measuring diameters with calipers most times
-Magnetic-base indicator stand/holder and a .001" indicator.  Upgrade to a .0005" or even .0001" once you know how to use the first one.
-3" or longer travel dial indicator _with analogue needle readout_ and magnetic mount_._  Mount this on the apron, cross slide, or compound for a double check on precise maneuvers; I find the dial motion makes it far easier to see the speed & smoothness of manual operations compared to a digital readout
-Find a used Aloris or similar quality AXA toolpost; the difference is pronounced in that I don't have to beat my tool holder open & closed, and don't need to unstick the holder once loosened
-I was able to find a nice vintage Skinner 4-jaw hardened steel chuck for about half the price of a new import model made from semisteel.  With a 4-jaw, the inherent adjustment of the jaws removes most of the risk you would take on getting a used tool; so long as it isn't beat to hell 7 was originally good quality, a used 4-jaw is basically fool proof (I did have to procure & cut an adapter backplate, but that isn't daunting for a machine this size)
-Don't bother with the stand unless you have to to get up & running.  I welded about 100$ of steel into a frame that is several times more rigid and has better contact with the slab.  Plus, I was able to make the chip pan about 4" deeper with makes a huge difference
-ABSOLUTELY get a DRO installed as soon as you can.  Even the cheapo iGauging axes I scabbed on make it far more convenient to do everything.  Just think carefully about where/how you will mount everything to be unobtrusive & solidly attached.  I milled a trench out the rear on the underside of the cross slide so it could slide over the stationary X-axis scale & not stick a full foot out the back, with all these components shielded from falling swarf
-Buy at least one hand-pump oil can, preferably one that can shoot oil into ballports
-I cut away the left rear corner of the gear box cover (that runs vertically) at a 45deg angle and riveted in a panel to close out the opening; it does not hit the drive pulleys when closed, and allows the door to swing open wide enough to access everything with the machine still pressed up against the wall.  My lathe shares a one-car garage with a Dodge Challenger, so this space savings is crucially important.
-IF (and only if) you already have a bench grinder, I'd highly suggest picking up some cobalt & HSS tool blanks.  For those getting started, the speeds needed to properly run carbide so it doesn't wear out quickly or leave a nasty finish are a bit...terrifying.  Steel can cut as slow as you care to, is generally much sharper than most carbide you'll use, and this particular machine has enough low-end torque & rigidity to actually cut threads and other delicate features in a controlled manner.  You don't have to toss blue-hot chips all over the place, either.  If you don't have a grinder, just use carbide inserts since they're better for the other 95% of jobs and nearly as good for those 5%.  Small-end import carbide tooling also seems to be getting cheaper the last few years, but HSS & cobalt aren't.

TCB


----------



## mksj (Aug 18, 2017)

So TCB's comments are very concerning and I thank him for his comments, I know this is always a difficult decision and there are trade offs at this price level. My concern for Aukai is you are more or less out in the sticks (having previously lived in Hawaii), so you need to get a decent functional unit from the get go. It also sounds like you have limited space. A bit frustrating, because of reports like these and my own experience on a previous Chinese mill, it is one reason why I ended up with a Taiwanese 1340GT. It is very well built and always a pleasure to work with, but you are talking almost twice the cost which for many is just too much. One possibility to consider is also the 1236 with the preferred package (includes the DRO), is at that point is the same cost as the 1228, it is almost twice the weight and also seems to be a decent lathe, a number of people have had problems with the single phase motor and a few other quality issues. I guess they all have their warts. But darkzero has a 1236 and has done some pretty phenomenal work with it. I guess it is the old adage you get what you pay for, but the quality issues are just such a problem these days.

All these comments are very valuable, and I do understand that some machine just have more problems than others.
Mark


----------



## barnbwt (Aug 18, 2017)

Aukai said:


> TCB, thank you , and also sorry you have issues. I really do hope mine is not going to be a repeat of yours.


I'm sure you'll be fine, but be prepared to follow the wise words of Lord Humongous and "just walk away" even after it's on your doorstep.  My shipping crate was smashed & the machine dirty, but nothing visibly broken or missing, and a monsoon was about to drown everything in 20min unless I signed the form & got it indoors.  That and I was confident I could use the lathe to fix anything, even itself (and it probably could, but it's still a butt-pain)

If the machine arrives in good shape & powers on, you're likely fine apart from generic quality quirks (rough spot in the gears or ways, loose parts, crappy paint, and that sort of thing)

TCB


----------



## barnbwt (Aug 18, 2017)

> One possibility to consider is also the 1236 with the preferred package (includes the DRO), is at that point is the same cost as the 1228, it is almost twice the weight and also seems to be a decent lathe, I number of people have had problems with the motor and a few other quality issues. I guess they all have their warts. But darkzero has a 1236 and has done some pretty phenomenal work with it. I guess it is the old adage you get what you pay for, but the quality issues are just such a problem these days.


For me at least, the trouble with the 1236 was I do not have access to the wattage required in my apartment garage, and really didn't have the room alongside the car.  Otherwise the 1236-class lathes are definitely the better option.  The 1228 essentially aspires to be a 1236 as far as its feature set (MT5 bore, MT3 tailstock, change gears, independent lead/feed drive, hardened ways, D1-4 spindle flange, X/Z power feed, BLDC motor) but just uses a slightly smaller casting (in external dimensions at least).  I think that's why the cost is so similar.


----------



## Aukai (Aug 18, 2017)

Thank you everybody for your words of wisdom, I like how quiet the 1228 is vs the 1236. I have got to put a stop to bigger is better somewhere, otherwise I'd be spending my retirement funds in no time.


----------

