# Need help wiring drum switch.



## clif (Oct 9, 2017)

I have a Atlas 3986 lathe which I want to wire to run in reverse to allow metric threading.

I have a Dayton 1/2 hp 100/220v reversible motor and a Dayton drum switch. I have read several threads here and elsewhere about this but do not see any the have the wiring connections to reverse I have on my motor.


Drum switch is a Dayton 2X441/RS-1


motor  name plate;





Anybody have any ideas how to do this?

Most of the threads have one set of wires being reversed, the name plate has two.

_to reverse rotation switch blu with wht & yel with org
_
How do you do that with a this drum switch?

The drum switch internally is operates like this;




Any ideas how this would be done?


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## wa5cab (Oct 10, 2017)

It can't be done with that drum switch.  At least not without knowing where the six wire leads go and what the internal connections are between the four screw terminals and the two spade terminals.  What is really puzzling is the brown wire which must be insulated for the 240V connection.  And the fact that two pair of wires must be swapped to reverse.  On a dual-voltage single phase motor, there are normally three windings, two RUN and one START.  The usual thing for reversing is to swap the two START circuit wires.  But you could swap the four RUN circuit wires if you wanted to complicate matters. But I can't think of any good reason to do that.   I think that your best bet is to decide whether you want to wire it for 120 or 240 V and take the motor and switch to a motor shop and let them figure it out.  

I don't mean to be insulting when I say that probably if you knew enough about electric motor circuits to be able to correctly measure and draw out the actual motor and junction box wiring diagram, you wouldn't need to ask for help.


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 10, 2017)

the drum switch may be able to be wired in for directional control, but you may need an auxiliary toggle switch for power disconnect.
i'll take a look at the diagram and see if i can offer a solution when i get home from work


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## markba633csi (Oct 10, 2017)

This is possible with the switch you have but the difficulty is identifying the internal motor connections- you usually need an ohmmeter or some type
of continuity checker.  I have several satisfied customers on this forum so far,  Ulma and I'll help you out.  Stay tuned
Mark S.
ps that brown lead is part of a thermal protector circuit;  many motors don't use it for the 230v case. Are you planning on using this motor on 115 or 230v?


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## clif (Oct 10, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> Are you planning on using this motor on 115 or 230v?



Which ever is easier. I  can do either.


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## JPigg55 (Oct 10, 2017)

Yes, it can be done and not that difficult (I think).
What voltage supply do you intend to use ??? 110 or 220 ???
Post it here and I'll take a look. Post a closer in, larger picture of the wiring details for your motor as well. My eyes aren't as sharp as they used to be. LOL


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## clif (Oct 10, 2017)

JPigg55 said:


> What voltage supply do you intend to use ??? 110 or 220 ???



I have both available, so which ever is easier,

Is this image easier to see?


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## markba633csi (Oct 11, 2017)

lol for a second there i thought it said "broil each bearing sae 20 
M


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 11, 2017)

it boils down to having to swap 4 wires - Blue and White, Yellow and Orange in 220v mode for directional control
you may need a relay to use the drum switch
i'm trying to run through ways of doing it with what you got


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## markba633csi (Oct 11, 2017)

So guys here's my take:  blue and white must be one run winding, yellow and orange the other one.  The start leg must be red and (probably) the bottom Line terminal (permanently connected behind the terminal board)
The nameplate says to swap both run windings to reverse; Difficult to do with the drum switch he's got.  If we could find and bring out the other end of the start leg that would be the simple way; for 230v you would switch that one wire from one side of the Line power to the other to reverse, leaving the red at the midpoint of the run windings.
Pigg you probably see where I'm going with this.. I'll do a sketch, give me a little time.
Might be simpler to do that rather than trying to do the 115v case considering all the wires that would have to be brought out. 
What do you guys think? 
Mark S.
ps this is the first time I've seen a nameplate tell you to swap the run windings instead of the start leg.


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## markba633csi (Oct 11, 2017)

clif do you have a multimeter of some kind? Have you done any electrical work?
Mark S.


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## JPigg55 (Oct 11, 2017)

Hey Clif, picture is much better though, a little confusing. Like Mark said, 220 volt may end up being easier.
I need another picture to make some sense of the label plate.
There should be a cover plate on the motor where one would connect the incoming power wires.
Take the cover off and take a close-up picture of the wiring connections.
Per the label plate, there should be 4 connection terminals and they should be labeled 1 through 4.
This will show us how the motor is currently connected either for 110 or 220.
It might help clear up my question on the label plate as well.

From your drawing of your drum switch connections, it looks very similar to the one on my mill. I wired it for 220 and I'm guessing yours will end up the same or similar


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## clif (Oct 11, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> clif do you have a multimeter of some kind?



Yes, and very basic knowledge on using it.  Shorts in automotive wiring, finding resistance, and voltage across wires and components.



markba633csi said:


> Have you done any electrical work?



Both residential wiring, including my entire shop, to include building from scratch a three phase converter.

Some stereo and appliance repair.  Made my first treadmill motor controller from a MC-60 board, for my wood band saw.



JPigg55 said:


> This will show us how the motor is currently connected either for 110 or 220.



I can state the machine currently is wired for 110, both by the plug it has, and from the gentleman I got it from had no 220 circuits near the lathe when I picked it up, only 20 amp 110 plugs.

All the machine had was a single wire on off switch, on the top of the spindle cover in the recess, looks OEM due to the recess cast in for the switch.

Here are the pictures from inside the motor wiring connections, very crowded in there.





I see four screws with nuts on the board


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## markba633csi (Oct 11, 2017)

Hi clif, I have no doubt you have enough skill to get this working;  I'll have to run you through a few tests on the motor wiring before we know what is what.
I think we would be best served by abandoning the factory wire swaps and do the "swinging start leg" arrangement, wiring for 230 volt.  It's much simpler.
First step: Disconnect the wiring completely, get it down to just the motor as it came from the factory.
Second step: ID the two run windings with your ohmmeter.
Third step: Locate the other end of the start leg and bring it out.  Verify start leg behavior with meter.
Fourth step: Rewire according to the diagram I will provide.
Fifth step: Fire it up. Smile. Make chips. Send me suitcases of money (optional)
Mark S.


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## JPigg55 (Oct 11, 2017)

Like Clif said, remove the incoming wires from the motor. I'd like to see a close-up picture of the terminals once the wires are disconnected.
Take a close-up of the terminals with the motor wires still connected to the terminals if you can.
This is where you need to have a little care as the wire colors don't always match the label plate colors.


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## markba633csi (Oct 12, 2017)

Here is the diagram I promised- we need to find the wire ?black? which may be black or some other color
Mark S.


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## markba633csi (Oct 12, 2017)

Here is a diagram of (I believe) the inside of your motor-


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## JPigg55 (Oct 12, 2017)

Hey Mark,
I took the label plate data and found this wiring diagram on Graingers.


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## markba633csi (Oct 12, 2017)

Hi Pigg, I see two places on the Grainger diagram that doesn't match up to his motor
1) the thermal switch wire colors
2) the black start leg wire isn't brought out on his motor, and it may not even be black
The one I posted I think is a little closer to his
On the diagram I drew the thermal switch is still in the blue line, I just didn't show it- It won't affect
anything having it there
M


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## markba633csi (Oct 12, 2017)

clif: I think you can skip the second step and go to step 3. Need to open the terminal board (you may have to open the motor case) and look for the wire ?black?behind the terminal board. 
It will be connected to one of the line side terminals probably #4 and may not be black.
Post some pics too when you get to that point, we need to do a check with your meter
Mark S.


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## markba633csi (Oct 12, 2017)

Here's a bit clearer version:


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Mark


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 12, 2017)

very clean, nice work Mark!


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## wa5cab (Oct 12, 2017)

Yes.  I'm so used to none of the old motors usually found on these old lathes not having a thermal switch that I never thought of it.

And I agree.  Very unusual to reverse the motor by reversing the run winding(s).


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## JPigg55 (Oct 13, 2017)

Mark, have a question on your drawing.
In the Reverse direction, doesn't that wiring scheme put an intermittent reversing polarity on the capacitor ???
I know you can do this on some capacitors, but not others.
Makes me wonder if the original wiring scheme (switching polarities of the Run windings) was due to the capacitor not being able to handle a reversing polarity.


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## markba633csi (Oct 13, 2017)

Those types of capacitors are made to handle AC current, unlike electronics-type electrolytics they have no polarity. 
Mark


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 13, 2017)

just to be clear,
a capacitor can only store a DC charge.
a capacitor can have an AC input, but the capacitors output will always be DC


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## wa5cab (Oct 14, 2017)

That isn't exactly correct.  I think what you meant is that any charge remaining on a capacitor (or condenser) will be DC.  But capacitors will output AC if the input is AC, albeit with a phase shift.  

But in the case of an AC motor start capacitor, to answer the previous comment, the capacitor is non-polarized.  Plus in the case of a single phase AC motor start capacitor, it is fed with AC at the power line frequency and it does not matter which terminal goes where as far as the capacitor is concerned..


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 14, 2017)

if a cap can't store a AC charge, how can it output one???
this is in reference to motor starting and motor running capacitors.


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## markba633csi (Oct 14, 2017)

Mike: it might help to think of a cap as a sphere with a rubber diaphram across the middle.  Pulsations of air or water on one side
will give equal pulses on the other but no actual transfer of air or water will occur.
Caps are like a conductor for AC (depending on the value and frequency).  This is true for all caps but motor caps are specially made to withstand AC.
The store and release action for DC takes time which is what gives the phase shift for AC.
Mark
ps Tesla was way ahead of his time!


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 14, 2017)

wa5cab said:


> That isn't exactly correct.  I think what you meant is that any charge remaining on a capacitor (or condenser) will be DC.  But capacitors will output AC if the input is AC, albeit with a phase shift.
> But in the case of an AC motor start capacitor, to answer the previous comment, the capacitor is non-polarized.  Plus in the case of a single phase AC motor start capacitor, it is fed with AC at the power line frequency and it does not matter which terminal goes where as far as the capacitor is concerned..



My apologies, i stand corrected.
thanks for the clarification


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 14, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> Mike: it might help to think of a cap as a sphere with a rubber diaphram across the middle.  Pulsations of air or water on one side
> will give equal pulses on the other but no actual transfer of air or water will occur.
> Caps are like a conductor for AC (depending on the value and frequency).  This is true for all caps but motor caps are specially made to withstand AC.
> The store and release action for DC takes time which is what gives the phase shift for AC.
> ...


Hi Mark,
thank you for the information


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## wa5cab (Oct 14, 2017)

I'll add that the magnitude of the DC left in a capacitor that's in an AC circuit like the Start capacitor depends upon where in its sinusoidal cycle the line voltage was at the instant that the switch was opened.  And also depends upon what else is still connected in the now OFF motor.  If the motor is wired internally to run in only one direction and is being controlled by a single external ON-OFF switch, as soon as the motor slows back down enough to close the centrifugal switch, the capacitor will quickly be discharged through the now series connected start and run windings.  So there is no potential shock hazard if you turn the motor off, unplug the line cord, and immediately open up the motor and start fiddling with the wiring.  But if the motor is wired to be reversable and connected to most drum switches, neither end of the start circuit is connected to anything when OFF.  So if the motor hasn't been OFF for a considerable length of time (dependent upon how good the capacitor is). you may get quite a jolt if you touch both capacitor terminals.  The quickest way to guarantee that the capacitor is discharged is to unplug the line cord and then put the drum switch in either FWD or REV for a few seconds.  But don't leave it there because Murphy will probably guarantee that you don't remember to put it back to OFF before you plug the line cord back in later.


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## markba633csi (Oct 14, 2017)

Good points Robert,  plenty of ways to get hurt with machinery- cut, maimed, electrocuted, your choice.
Be careful out there folks. Live to play another day. Discharge large capacitors with an insulated screwdriver before handling.
Mark S.


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## markba633csi (Dec 29, 2017)

Clif did you get your wiring issues straightened out? This thread got a little sidetracked talking about capacitors...
Mark


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## clif (Jan 13, 2018)

No, but not because I can't, got sidetracked with very bad spindle run out,  visible to my eye with 3" drill rod out of the chuck.

Had to order new spindle from Clausing and bearings from fleabay.  When that is done, IE when the arctic goes back to the arctic and leaves us poor souls in Kentucky alone, I hope to get right on it.  Right now my shop seems more like a walk in freezer than a work shop.


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## markba633csi (Jan 14, 2018)

It's cold here too, I have this tiny heater that heats about a 2 cubic foot area so as long as I don't move from that spot I can work  LOL


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