# Beating Brexit?



## graham-xrf (Dec 2, 2020)

it goes something like ..
"Hey Graham - you know all that machine stuff you were going to get for your shop when it's built"?
Yeah - why do you ask?
"Consider getting it now, even if you just have to leave the crates unopened for a while.
Deal or no deal, after Dec 31st, there is likely to be import tariffs to pay that are not there right now."

Oh .. Er oops!
Said "machine stuff" = MT3 or MT4 Mill Drill with autofeed, 200A MIG/TIG, Lincoln Electric Viking autodark helmet, maybe some other stuff that has motors..

Really? !! Am I now to press the go button on a machinery-oriented self-aimed Santa Claus style spree where I don't even get to open the presents until shop is built?
(Info: Shop project already started)!
I think I already know what you folk are gonna say!
Decisions .. decisions..


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## vtcnc (Dec 2, 2020)

Sounds like someone is going to have a great Christmas! 

edit: I've been using the Lincoln Viking Autodark helmet and it is great.


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## Larry$ (Dec 2, 2020)

I've been following the Brexit stuff because I swap lies with a couple of guys there. What a scrambled mess that has been. Your 20% added value tax is bad enough let alone adding more import taxes. Doesn't the EU already have import taxes on Chinese stuff? (I'm assuming your Mill drill will be from China.) *Good to pickout your own Xmas presents!* Don't forget all the accessories (vice, boring head & bars, drill chuck, tooling, measuring stuff, parallels, fly cutter, tap follower, arm to mount the dial test indicator to the spindle, set of screw machine drills, toolmakers vice, DRO and all the stuff I've forgotten.)


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## Lo-Fi (Dec 2, 2020)

Financials aside, given that the French are likely going to be spectacularly awkward to spite us, and our own government is so murderously incompetent they can't organise the proverbial in a brewery, it's looking pretty certain that there's going to be the mother of all gridlocks getting even basic stuff like food in and out, let alone machine tools. 

It'll settle down eventually, but I'm braced for a train wreck of biblical proportions. Then there's the not unlikely scenario of the pound tanking again. I'd be getting that order in...


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## graham-xrf (Dec 2, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> I've been following the Brexit stuff because I swap lies with a couple of guys there. What a scrambled mess that has been. Your 20% added value tax is bad enough let alone adding more import taxes. Doesn't the EU already have import taxes on Chinese stuff? (I'm assuming your Mill drill will be from China.) *Good to pickout your own Xmas presents!* Don't forget all the accessories (vice, boring head & bars, drill chuck, tooling, measuring stuff, parallels, fly cutter, tap follower, arm to mount the dial test indicator to the spindle, set of screw machine drills, toolmakers vice, DRO and all the stuff I've forgotten.)


You are right about scrambled mess. Completely independent of taking sides, the arrangement was that there was a approx 500 million population set of trading nations in Europe, which provided around 60% of UK trade. This now has to be replaced by UK trade with the rest of the world becoming expanded, plus whatever new trade volume with Europe establishes.

One could move goods freely between them with zero border checks and no duty to pay. The nation narrowly voted to undo this. We may yet have the nation attempt to "re-do" this, but for the present, it very much looks like one side pitched in a condition they knew the other side could never agree to. There are signs of tensions from Scotland, which voted 62% to remain in the EU. The timing has been exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. I am betting that if this course of history turns out to be a bust - perhaps a very bad way to go, the incumbents, whichever they be, will probably blame the COVID-19.

Thank you for the list of "essential extras". I am very much minded to do the deed right now, at least in the substantial pieces of kit.


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## Nogoingback (Dec 2, 2020)

Would it make more sense at this point to consider buying used equipment in the UK rather than new from the EU.  Even
if you do, it would make sense to buy sooner rather than later to get out ahead of the inevitable demand.


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## MrWhoopee (Dec 2, 2020)

With no potential downside to waiting, we here would still recommend buying now rather than later. Given the likelihood of significant cost increases, why are you even asking? Think of the savings as ROI. 

"Yes, honey, but look how much I saved."


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## graham-xrf (Dec 2, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Financials aside, given that the French are likely going to be spectacularly awkward to spite us, and our own government is so murderously incompetent they can't organise the proverbial in a brewery, it's looking pretty certain that there's going to be the mother of all gridlocks getting even basic stuff like food in and out, let alone machine tools.
> 
> It'll settle down eventually, but I'm braced for a train wreck of biblical proportions. Then there's the not unlikely scenario of the pound tanking again. I'd be getting that order in...


Your mention of the relative value of £ pound currency is probably what is pushing me over the edge. We do not have an exclusive corner on the on the  characteristic of governments to be murderously incompetent. We need a lower setting the of the bar than the relative ease by which one might arrange a successful event at a brewery!

I would much rather have chosen at my leisure. Import arrangements are such that it makes no sense to try for (say) *Precision Matthews*. I did try that already. The full route was to have one exported to USA PM dealer, who then arranges a coast-to-coast transportation to a East Coast port, and export by ship to UK. There it stops until import duty is paid, and then happens a further shipping by carrier across UK to final destination. I already had enough hassle importing *$65* worth of electronics from USA. By the time it came through my door, it came to *$133.53*

Most of the good machine tool manufacturers in Europe are from Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, France, and some in Italy. I scratch my head to find some UK manufacturers, but I think they have all gone. UK turned into a service sector based trickle down economy in a process that started about 4 decades ago. I can't actually think of a UK manufacturer of lathes and mill-drills! Much the same as for car manufacture. UK plants are foreign owned.

Re: Buying used equipment? I already have a bunch of that. The old South Bends are pretty nice machines, or will be when I'm done. I aspired to a decent mill drill with auto-feed. Not too big, and I thought I would try for new kit if possible. I was not really in a hurry. I have quite enough of current stuff to keep me busy. Now, it makes sense to buy the major stuff now, even if it all stays in the Christmas wrapping for a time.

I admit I usually only get well into the Christmas season mood, and start feeling the good stuff, somewhat later in the month.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 2, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> With no potential downside to waiting, we here would still recommend buying now rather than later. Given the likelihood of significant cost increases, why are you even asking? Think of the savings as ROI.
> 
> "Yes, honey, but look how much I saved."


Yep - between the posting from @Lo-Fi, and yours, the Lincoln Viking auto-dark helmet has been purchased, and the welder is next.

I suppose some of the waiting was so that I could have the place to put it become reality first. As things are, It has to stay in the box for a bit.
[Edit: I am working my way up through the list].


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## NortonDommi (Dec 2, 2020)

I really hope the £ doesn't tank!  I have an inheritance coming. If the £ goes down it means less tools!


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## Larry$ (Dec 2, 2020)

graham, what made the cost so high? "I already had enough hassle importing *$65* worth of electronics from USA. By the time it came through my door, it came to *$133.53*"


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## graham-xrf (Dec 3, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> graham, what made the cost so high? "I already had enough hassle importing *$65* worth of electronics from USA. By the time it came through my door, it came to *$133.53*"


OK - let's see how it adds up. I hope I got this right, because the charge was paid by my brother-in-law when he collected it.
Also, the exchage rate has shifted slightly since.

Re: SparkFun --> Pretty much _snafu._
For SEN-14209 *$69.95 + $5.19* shipping and handling *= $75.14*
I think that gets it as far as USA port.
I have two duty hurdles. The second is if the value of the item is greater than £39. The lesson is - do not import over £39.
I still have £16 to account for, paid by brother-in-law - *$21.28*
No arrangement to pre-pay customs charge, so apparently *+£18.97 => +$24.79 extra*.
So, carefully keeping dollars together,  total is *$99.93*




Now discover that to get the postal service to move it from port to depot and delivery was £8 = about *$10.64* on today's exchange rate.
The total, using today's dollar conversions, comes to $131.85.

I think I could have avoided the £16 on a smaller value import, but I needed the thing for XRF project, so OK. Any folk in USA who want to follow the build only pay $69.95 + postage.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Checking out Precision Matthews to purchase anything to a UK customer seemed so bad, I shelved it as pointless, and started looking at European makes.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 3, 2020)

In the end, import/export may not turn out to be as bad as I fear. Pretty much everywhere, (including China) is going to take an economic schism. In various ways, (at least looking West) from UK, we see the spectre of food queues, job and home insecurity, a rampant public health hazard, and generally lots of unhappiness and concern. Looking East, folk are also hard hit. It may be comparable to the early 1930's

There will be plenty of motivation to make UK trade easier with USA, and vice-versa. The upsides to a deal with the EU for both sides are so obvious, even to me, that I think, after all the grandstanding and posturing is over, I may still be able to buy machinery without an excessive hit.

In the short term, @MrWhoopee is likely right. Grab it now!
Is the saying "a bird in the hand ..etc" ?


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## Lo-Fi (Dec 3, 2020)

Longer term it'll get sorted one way or another. Lots of talk of UK looking to Indo-Pacific region for trade and alliances, which I find quite heartening. I'll leave the politics out, naturally. Short term it's going to be pretty hard going. Get those orders in!


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## RJSakowski (Dec 3, 2020)

Is import duty paid based upon the time of purchase or arrival at a UK port of entry?  Given how close you are to brexit, it may already be too late.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 3, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> Is import duty paid based upon the time of purchase or arrival at a UK port of entry?  Given how close you are to brexit, it may already be too late.


The kit is, I think, already in UK. The original manufacturer was Polish.
[Edit: I have checked. The kit is in Poland. However, delivery would be before Christmas]


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## graham-xrf (Dec 3, 2020)

After some specifications checking, I have gone ahead and purchased the little Cormak MT3 Spindle 230V Mill-Drill machine.
It's just about the size I want, relatively compact, and has the stuff one would expect, like table auto-feed, and +/- 90° head tilt.




I now have to go through the list mentioned by @Larry$ namely..


> Don't forget all the accessories (vice, boring head & bars, drill chuck, tooling, measuring stuff, parallels, fly cutter, tap follower, arm to mount the dial test indicator to the spindle, set of screw machine drills, toolmakers vice, DRO and all the stuff I've forgotten.)


Maybe getting into the goods and bads of that lot belongs in a thread of it's own, rather than being about getting past some inevitable new tariff arrangements. I don't for even a second believe they can end up "better". If all goes well, maybe the impact will be minimal, but, of course, they could end up a real imports piggy. Definitely what @MrWhoopee mentioned about there being no downsides to going for it now, did influence me.

As with all of these things, measuring kit like DRO would be an "extra", and I suppose an "any brand" one could be retro-fitted. I would have hoped the machine comes with a draw-bar, but no mention of that. I will be exploring all that stuff in the coming hours. This was the largest "little" machine in the range that still used a 230V motor, although this is one of those with servo-controlled variable speed.

For the price (*$2166.00* imported +delivered =*£1629.00*), it took about 2/3 the budget, so there is some left for DRO, and some other necessary kit, for which throw in a necessary correct power socket installation.

Am I among the few, or maybe first, to end up with a "Santa Claus" toy like this, and no place (yet) to have it make chips on Christmas day?


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## Lo-Fi (Dec 3, 2020)

Congrats!! The Cormac stuff looks pretty darn decent. 



graham-xrf said:


> Am I among the few, or maybe first, to end up with a "Santa Claus" toy like this, and no place (yet) to have it make chips on Christmas day?



Get away with some light Delrin milling on the living room floor? Don't forget the batteries!


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## Larry$ (Dec 3, 2020)

I looked up the info on your new mill. The draw bar is probably a 12 mm accessed under the plastic cap. The starter kit they sell for it is Chinese so you can probably get similar items cheaper. A YT channel by "Jon's Workshop"  Shows a similar machine he bought in June. 
It looks like it has capabilities to do most hobby work. New tools are always a fun adventure. 

The kitchen table should work as a temporary bench.


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## graham-xrf (Dec 3, 2020)

Larry$ said:


> I looked up the info on your new mill. The draw bar is probably a 12 mm accessed under the plastic cap. The starter kit they sell for it is Chinese so you can probably get similar items cheaper. A YT channel by "Jon's Workshop"  Shows a similar machine he bought in June.
> It looks like it has capabilities to do most hobby work. New tools are always a fun adventure.
> 
> The kitchen table should work as a temporary bench.


Thanks for the link. I am likely to be asking about all the other stuff in a separate thread.
In my place, there is not the remotest hope that anything like a machine could be put down on a kitchen table that might see food. Even so much as a screwdriver had better be there as a temporary consequence of repairing the table. By nature, I am the sort who would readily use the kitchen table.  I would disassemble a motorcycle in the living room. I might spoon the sausage chunks with chilli beans direct out the pot, and so skip having to wash up a plate.

The thing is, I married an English girl, and here, she tells me, that sort of thing just isn't done! Actually, I'm totally sure kitchen tables are put to darn good use across the nation, but in my place, it's a big no-no!


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## middle.road (Dec 3, 2020)

er, food on the dining table? HUSH, don't you dare let the missus here that kind of talk.
With me being the King of F.S.S. she puts up with a lot of my 'quirks'.
Currently residing on the table as of 9PM EST:
One laptop - being used for video'ing with family and friends so that's mutual.
two empty Starrett boxes
One small Starrett gage block box set (partial)
Set of jeweler screwdrivers that need to be put away.
Three android tablets, one wireless charger stand.
A dead photo frame that I tried to repair.
partially disassembled smartphone - needs to be tossed in the recycle bin.
A ton of miscellany. 
The other half contains her proper decorative items. . .


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