# CL Pricing Madness,



## Papa Charlie (Nov 12, 2020)

Here in the PNW I see a lot of items listed in CL as "Vintage" or  "Collectable" or "Classic" with a price to go along with their thinking. Sometimes it may be that the age has added some value, but most often it is just someone trying to charge a huge price for a POS.

From watching the CL adds that Mr W posts here, it seems as though this ploy is not the accepted across the nation. Although I am sure it exists to some degree everywhere.

I was doing my usual morning purse of CL Tools and came across the add below, which is what prompted me to post this. I must admit the South Bend Drill Press is pretty cool, as is the Buffalo Forge and the Fox Machine milling machine. OK I do find old iron very appealing. But to me, the prices seem completely out of line.

What do you think?









						Vintage Machine Shop Tools, Buffalo Forge, South Bend, Jet,...
					

Estate Liquidation of Vintage Machine Shop Tools Comparable pricing for these hard-to-find...



					seattle.craigslist.org


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## Braeden P (Nov 12, 2020)

i cant use craigslist could you post the prices please.


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## MikeWi (Nov 12, 2020)

Well he does admit his ignorance as to pricing. If I didn't know better, those prices would probably seem reasonable.


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 12, 2020)

Braeden P said:


> i cant use craigslist could you post the prices please.



*Estate Liquidation of Vintage Machine Shop Tools*

Comparable pricing for these hard-to-find machines is difficult to come by. Therefore I am open to see your best offers. Thank you for looking.

Drill Press, Milling, Lathe, Band Saw and other machine shop tools

Buffalo Forge, 20” Camelback Drill Press - $575

JET-420, Drill Press - $575
Made in Japan

South Bend, Model 14 Drill Press - $675

Central Machinery TD-1440E Engine Lathe - $3,500
Same as EISEN 

Powermatic 143 Band Saw - $1,200

Fox Machine Co Milling Machine Model 3-1/2 - $575

*As is, where is. The shop does have a Gantry + winch system that might be helpful for picking the machines up. However, I'm unsure if the system works. *


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## Braeden P (Nov 12, 2020)

way to much for some stuff


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## higgite (Nov 12, 2020)

Like Mike said, the seller admits he doesn't know a reasonable price and is open to offers. If he doesn't know what it's worth and the buyer doesn't know what it's worth and they agree on a price that makes both of them happy, where's the beef?

Tom


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## Braeden P (Nov 12, 2020)

higgite said:


> Like Mike said, the seller admits he doesn't know a reasonable price and is open to offers. If he doesn't know what it's worth and the buyer doesn't know what it's worth and they agree on a price that makes both of them happy, where's the beef?
> 
> Tom


I just think those prices are to high right now


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## higgite (Nov 12, 2020)

Braeden P said:


> I just think those prices are to high right now


And I'm sure you're right. But, that wasn't my point.  

Tom


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 12, 2020)

Someone with a lot of cash who just loves these old tools might go for it but to price something way,way over what's considered "reasonable " and hope for that odd chance to find that person, is a fool's game.


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 12, 2020)

higgite said:


> Like Mike said, the seller admits he doesn't know a reasonable price and is open to offers. If he doesn't know what it's worth and the buyer doesn't know what it's worth and they agree on a price that makes both of them happy, where's the beef?
> 
> Tom



I posted this add as an example of the way people are pricing things here in my area. I have seen much higher prices for pure junk. Try not to get hung up on that one statement. I have responded to many adds making similar statements only to be met with an attitude when I made a fare and reasonable offer, not a low ball.


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## Boswell (Nov 12, 2020)

Ken from ontario said:


> to price something way,way over what's considered "reasonable " and hope for that odd chance to find that person, is a fool's game.


well, if that is true then I guess then that a huge number of sellers on ebay are "fools".   Nothing new here, "Buyer Beware" has been a trueism since the first trade.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 12, 2020)

With the exception of the lathe, I would consider all of the machines to be antiques. Antique machine tools are not like antique furniture. They might be worth something to someone who is building a museum. Otherwise, they're worth their weight in scrap iron. Lack of familiarity with machine tools in general and the limitations of old machine tools can feed into the belief that old iron is better, and more valuable, than new. If you are truly interested in something that is listed for a ridiculous price, save the contact info (if you can get it) and wait a month or two.


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## C-Bag (Nov 12, 2020)

It adds to the already hard to navigate maze that is CL. There are so many that feign ignorance of what the machines are really worth and now don’t know who really made them, yet are asking for more than they were new. Central Machinery is a Harbor Freight brand. Granted some of the early stuff was made in Taiwan, it can still be of not that great quality. Then you tag on these “legendary “ names like South Bend and Powermatic and it would seem you can get whatever you want. It’s crazy.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 12, 2020)

Papa Charlie is right about this: prices in the PNW run higher than other parts of the country.   Compared with
other local ads, I would say that though high, those prices aren't unusual, and since the seller seems flexible on price a buyer might come  out OK in the end.  Asking prices on USA manufactered DP's are usually very high around here. 
This area is a bit of a machinery desert, so supply of decent machines is limited.


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## NC Rick (Nov 12, 2020)

I think the 143 band saw could be worth it if it's nice.


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## MikeWi (Nov 12, 2020)

Blame Antique Roadshow. If it's old, it must be valuable. If someone advertises an item as Vintage, or Antique, I know they're likely not to have any idea what the actual value is, and believe it's made of gold, so I don't bother. And if it says "Wow!" in the listing I don't even read it. LOL


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 12, 2020)

My personal feeling is that his prices are X3. At least that is as far as I would pay. I got to admit, the South Bend drill press with the makers badges is pretty cool. But don't know if I would buy it for a tool that I would rely on in my home shop.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 12, 2020)

Nogoingback said:


> Papa Charlie is right about this: prices in the PNW run higher than other parts of the country.



I gather that the presence of Boeing did not spawn a multitude of shops in the Seattle area the way the computer boom did in Silicon Valley.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 12, 2020)

What we don't know about is condition.  If they're projects rather than working tools, the seller is nuts.
The Jet is definately high: Jet DP's don't bring much.  The South Bend is high I think as well, though at a somewhat lower price and assuming good condition it could be OK.  After all around here folks routinely ask $850 - $1000 for 
Clausings and Powermatics, (though I don't think they sell for that).  The Camel Back is tough to call since they don't come up much.  The bandsaw is the 2 speed model which brings much more than the wood saw around here, and Powermatic saws bring a premium.  It will be interesting to see how long that stuff stays on CL.  I'm thinking a while.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 12, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> I gather that the presence of Boeing did not spawn a multitude of shops in the Seattle area the way the computer boom did in Silicon Valley.



I think the problem is that Boeing has been the only game in  town. Logging was the big industry in the NW for decades.  The economy has become
more diverse since then, but there has never been a concentration of large scale manufacturing here like the midwest.
Seattle and Portland are the two biggest cities: everything else is small cities and towns with ties to agriculture and, in the past logging.


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 12, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> I gather that the presence of Boeing did not spawn a multitude of shops in the Seattle area the way the computer boom did in Silicon Valley.



Boeing supports many shops world wide including in the Washington area, literally tens of thousands. Shops range from small Mom and Pop type shops to some major players depending on the commodity they provide. Then of course their are all the support services, supplies, maintenance, founderies, equipment, etc. We have plants in Everett (787, 747, 767, Tanker), Renton (737) which are just our primary Fab/Assembly facilities. We also have a huge manufacturing shop located in Auburn. All our plants have their own Fire Dept's, medical facilities, ambulances, etc. They are like a small city. Everett alone employees somewhere between 20K and 35K in normal times. Of course this is only the commercial side of Boeing with the exception of the Tanker for Washington State only. We have plants all over the country.

We also have the Defense group (F15, Minute Man Missile, etc), the Satellite group and the Space group. Total direct employees world wide ranges from 120K to 250K, the latter in good times.

After all that, I think @Nogoingback summed up things pretty well for the PNW. It also doesn't help that our governor is, well I won't use the word(s) I would like to.


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## aliva (Nov 12, 2020)

Offer 1/4 the asking price and settle for 1/2, or walk away.


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## nnam (Nov 12, 2020)

I reduced my uses of CL for awhile now.  When I buy, the prices are so high.  When I sell, either it's very low or I only get spams/crooks.
According to one "indicator" that I am very familiar with, about 5 years ago, 100,000 users would be now 50 users.  So users abandon the system in droves.
I found Facebook marketplace safer.  You often see people's profile, and it's "less" anonymous, so meeting them is a bit less daunting.  Message back and forth is much quicker than emails, while people don't want to post phone numbers for the public to see.
Too bad, I used to love CL and was a big contributor to it.

That said, selling used equipment is not easy.  Price is often half to 1/10, and still can't find buyers.  It's the untrusted quality the user may get coupled to buyer's expectations.  Some buyers just want to buy new, and not wanting to deal with the hassle.  While other buyers just only want great deals, almost free.  It's a nature of the beast I think.


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## C-Bag (Nov 12, 2020)

nnam said:


> I reduced my uses of CL for awhile now.  When I buy, the prices are so high.  When I sell, either it's very low or I only get spams/crooks.
> According to one "indicator" that I am very familiar with, about 5 years ago, 100,000 users would be now 50 users.  So users abandon the system in droves.
> I found Facebook marketplace safer.  You often see people's profile, and it's "less" anonymous, so meeting them is a bit less daunting.  Message back and forth is much quicker than emails, while people don't want to post phone numbers for the public to see.
> Too bad, I used to love CL and was a big contributor to it.


I tend to agree. I do mostly idle shopping as there‘s few good deals and half of those won’t answer emails. I am not going to play phone tag. eBay has gotten sketchy too.


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## ArmyDoc (Nov 12, 2020)

CL just doesn't seem to be as good as it once was.  Lot more "professional" sellers and a lot less individuals who want to sell something they don't have a use for anymore.  Used to be that CL was like the classified add section of the newspaper.  That's all changed.  A private citizen wants to get rid of something and hopefully get a little something for it to put towards something else,  But the motivation is to get rid of it.  Businesses are out to make a profit, only make a profit, and the more the better.


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## Meta Key (Nov 12, 2020)

On the Powermatic 143 band saw, here's one data point.  I bought a *really* nice Powermatic 143 from Boeing Surplus (remember that?) about 25 years ago.  $500.  Still have it and still love it.

Oh, man, do I miss Boeing Surplus.  At the time, I was living out south of Issaquah and it was about a 15 minute drive.  Also, Frys Electronics was nearby.  Spent many a Saturday morning, blissfully browsing around those two places..

MK


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## Aaron_W (Nov 12, 2020)

Based on what I've seen around here, the older drill presses don't seem grossly out of line, high but factor in the bargaining factor and not ridiculous. 

I'm still kind of kicking myself for not moving on a Powermatic 143 bandsaw for $800 earlier this year. It took some time to sell at that price so $1200 is probably a bit much. I ended up buying a neat vintage 14" saw for $250, but when you factor in the time and cost of bringing it back into service and adding a gear box to allow cutting metal, $800 for a plug and play industrial wood / metal saw was not out of line. I just didn't know what a ready to go wood / metal bandsaw sold for 6 months ago.


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## pontiac428 (Nov 12, 2020)

@Papa Charlie, I recognize that ad from at least a year ago, possibly longer.  Same photos, too.  The background in the scene is memorable.

I, for one, hate to haggle.  I don't want to play guess-your-price.  I really appreciate the Germans in this regard- the price asked is the price paid.  Simple, with no psychology or weirdness.  When I sell stuff, I am up front about what I want.  I wish they were all 
that way, especially if I am looking at a couple hours' drive to look at something.


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## C-Bag (Nov 12, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> @Papa Charlie, I recognize that ad from at least a year ago, possibly longer.  Same photos, too.  The background in the scene is memorable.
> 
> I, for one, hate to haggle.  I don't want to play guess-your-price.  I really appreciate the Germans in this regard- the price asked is the price paid.  Simple, with no psychology or weirdness.  When I sell stuff, I am up front about what I want.  I wish they were all
> that way, especially if I am looking at a couple hours' drive to look at something.


I HATE to haggle too! The worst are these “make me an offer” folks. If it’s too high it doesn’t even cross my mind that they want to haggle, it just means I think they want too much and I don’t bother.


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## Ken from ontario (Nov 12, 2020)

When I sell I always mention that the asking price is firm but when buying stuff, I can't expect the seller to feel the same as me about his/her asking price, but it's alright to haggle and very easy (around here) to guess the actual"want to sell it for" price,  for example if something is $120 OBO, you know they'll want  no less than a $100, the extra $20 is ro make the buyer feel good they got a deal.lol.


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## NC Rick (Nov 13, 2020)

I am fixated on the 143 (sorry, it's an emotional thing ). I don't have a problem with an open discussion of pricing. We recently had a Powermatic on our local Craig's list that in the photos, looked perfect with all the factory paint and stickers. The owner was asking $1500. If I didn't have my Taiwanese stand-in which is doing a great job for my needs, I would have been willing to pay that for a near perfect machine. I spent more on my new machine which came as a 2hp VFD controlled saw.
on going to look at the machine, I would check it out I would honestly asses the condition and tell the owner what I thought.  In my case, if it was all I hoped for, I would ask if he would be willing to take $1000.  If he said he was firm and would not, I would hem an haw before paying up for a machine.  If it had problems, I would figure what it was worth to me and make the offer.  If not accepted I would respect his option of asking any figure he wanted and and expect him to have the same respect for my willingness to pay what I think it's worth.  I have walked away from a lot of things in that manner and have also gotten great deals, fair deals and sometimes bad deals (which were on me, I believe in buyer beware).

most people are honest and kind. A few are not and in those cases, I'd rather not be involved in an exchange regardless.  Most things I have bought and sold, I have totally enjoyed the people I met and dealt with.  With used tools, I want to know the story, to me they have a life of their own which is important to me.  I get that to others, they may be nothing more than a tool to do a job.


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## C-Bag (Nov 13, 2020)

It is a complicated story indeed. I get attached to certain machines and tools too. Sometimes i used one someplace and just got stuck on it. When MrWhoopee started coming up with all these DoAll vert saws it really got me thinking about what I’d have to get rid of to make it fit. And to add insult to injury many of them were like $800! i just like those saws because it was the first industrial vert I ever used and it was a beast. But ultimately it takes  a LOT to overcome the inertia because I’m pretty happy with what I’ve cobbled together for myself. Same with the lathes and Mills I see. I have been at it long enough to know my work envelope and know it’s just that demon desire messing with me to want big industrial machines. I would never use them to their potential and I just don’t have the room.

I would love to know the story of these old tools I’ve picked up but I can’t think of a single instance where that was possible. They have all been secondhand from someone who didn’t know or in an estate sale where the guy was dead and the sellers had no clue or interest. The universal BS line I hear over and over is it was seldom used. And upon closer looks so far that has not been close to true.

The only time I’ve ever talked someone down was with my RF30. It was a LOT rougher than the pics and descriptions when seen in person. And his “improvements” were obviously more a liability than real improvement. But it was already so cheap I figured it would get me down the road and I could do like with my old cars, fix it while it got me where I needed to go. I talked him down another $50. CL is my tv time. I don’t watch tv, so I cruise CL from Los Angeles to San Francisco. Some crazy stuff pops up. Especially here in between the two.


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 13, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> @Papa Charlie, *I recognize that ad from at least a year ago, possibly longer.  Same photos, too.  The background in the scene is memorable.*



Do the prices look the same or have they gone up. Not surprising that it has been around for a while. I peruse CL daily, if for no other reason to see what people are selling and for what. Over the last 9 months, I have been seeing the same adds for the same price over and over again. I don't understand the mentality. Do you want to sell this or are you just delusional that it is worth this huge price that they probably came up with from similar delusional sellers on CL?


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## Janderso (Nov 13, 2020)

Yeah. the vintage Jet does not belong. Other items are nice though.


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## pontiac428 (Nov 13, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> Do the prices look the same or have they gone up. Not surprising that it has been around for a while. I peruse CL daily, if for no other reason to see what people are selling and for what. Over the last 9 months, I have been seeing the same adds for the same price over and over again. I don't understand the mentality. Do you want to sell this or are you just delusional that it is worth this huge price that they probably came up with from similar delusional sellers on CL?


I was trying to recall the prices to see if they've changed, but in all honesty I don't remember because I wasn't considering it.  But I am certain the ad has been run before, with quite a time gap.


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## Aaron_W (Nov 13, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> @Papa Charlie, I recognize that ad from at least a year ago, possibly longer.  Same photos, too.  The background in the scene is memorable.
> 
> I, for one, hate to haggle.  I don't want to play guess-your-price.  I really appreciate the Germans in this regard- the price asked is the price paid.  Simple, with no psychology or weirdness.  When I sell stuff, I am up front about what I want.  I wish they were all
> that way, especially if I am looking at a couple hours' drive to look at something.



Even more than spending the money, the "dance" is what I really hate about car shopping. I'm glad to see no haggle car buying becoming a thing. 

I think a lot of sellers factor in hagglers. Some people will try and talk the price down on free stuff, so I think a lot of sellers factor in a negotiating price. Others are more of the don't waste my time, my price is my price and I respect that, yeah sometimes their price is nuts but maybe that is what it is worth to them. The other side of that is I don't waste my time if the sellers asking price isn't close to what I think I should pay. Just as there are wildly over priced items, I've also found a fair number of undervalued items, things the seller just want to move. I don't think we see these items as frequently because they don't tend to stick around.   



Papa Charlie said:


> Do the prices look the same or have they gone up. Not surprising that it has been around for a while. I peruse CL daily, if for no other reason to see what people are selling and for what. Over the last 9 months, I have been seeing the same adds for the same price over and over again. I don't understand the mentality. Do you want to sell this or are you just delusional that it is worth this huge price that they probably came up with from similar delusional sellers on CL?



I do the same, when I start to develop an interest in something I'll start watching ebay and CL, just to get an idea what people are asking. I think CL is a little better gauge of prices for large items since it is a smaller pool of buyers and moving it is usually not part of the deal. ebay has a much larger pool and also factors in ebays cut, shipping and occasionally other shenanigans (shill bidders etc). 

Now I'll fully admit to one of the hazards of doing this, I have ended up buying things I really had not really intended too simply because I found a good deal on something I eventually wanted, even though now wasn't necessarily the best timing. In fact most of my machines were acquired through the I'm thinking about getting, and wow, here is a great opportunity and I have the money so...    Not all were from browsing CL, several came to me after asking about xyz, and then somebody I was talking with happened to have one they wanted to sell.


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## Winegrower (Nov 13, 2020)

I generally ignore "price is firm" comments.   In fact, I generally ignore a seller's requested price.   It's worth what you can get somebody to pay, and if I show up and make an offer, you can accept or reject, but perhaps you don't really like to sell and bargain yourself, and having it gone and freeing up the rest of your life is worth something.    It took three calls and two visits to land the Takisawa at much lower than the "firm" price.

What I'm not going to do is talk for an hour about random stuff, ask a bunch of dumb questions, then make a lowball offer.   No need to waste your time like that.


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## NC Rick (Nov 13, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> It is a complicated story indeed. I get attached to certain machines and tools too. Sometimes i used one someplace and just got stuck on it. When MrWhoopee started coming up with all these DoAll vert saws it really got me thinking about what I’d have to get rid of to make it fit. And to add insult to injury many of them were like $800! i just like those saws because it was the first industrial vert I ever used and it was a beast. But ultimately it takes  a LOT to overcome the inertia because I’m pretty happy with what I’ve cobbled together for myself. Same with the lathes and Mills I see. I have been at it long enough to know my work envelope and know it’s just that demon desire messing with me to want big industrial machines. I would never use them to their potential and I just don’t have the room.
> 
> I would love to know the story of these old tools I’ve picked up but I can’t think of a single instance where that was possible. They have all been secondhand from someone who didn’t know or in an estate sale where the guy was dead and the sellers had no clue or interest. The universal BS line I hear over and over is it was seldom used. And upon closer looks so far that has not been close to true.
> 
> The only time I’ve ever talked someone down was with my RF30. It was a LOT rougher than the pics and descriptions when seen in person. And his “improvements” were obviously more a liability than real improvement. But it was already so cheap I figured it would get me down the road and I could do like with my old cars, fix it while it got me where I needed to go. I talked him down another $50. CL is my tv time. I don’t watch tv, so I cruise CL from Los Angeles to San Francisco. Some crazy stuff pops up. Especially here in between the two.


The big Doall saws I have been around in factories but have personally seldom used have such a presents i even think of their smell.  I too wanted one so badly but my 7" ceiling and limited space (and perhaps logical thinking) lead me away from having another multi thousand pound machine, sadly.  My good friend bought a Powermatic 143 brand new in the mid-seventies and uses it in his business still today.  That was my logical lust machine and it's too bad no one has nocked off that because it isn't too heavy, has a sturdy but not massive cast frame and the quick change gearbox is the perfect thing for a multi-purpose machine.  Used they cost more than some Doall saws!  As it happens, the made in Taiwan saw I have is only 440 lbs and really gets the job done.  Fabricated steel, not cast but seemingly up to the tasks I have for it.

looking at my 1930s WT drill press, I see nice castings like you just won't see these days yet on the other hand, it was a pricepoint machine and the machining work looks worse than most made in China stuff today.  I remember when Japanese stuff was just terrible and now I kinda seek it out as top quality.  Our modern machine tools have made great quality machining almost ubiquitous.  I still wana Doall! Logic sucks sometimes.


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## Masterjuggler (Nov 13, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> I, for one, hate to haggle.


I think it's interesting how different ppl think from different cultures. Last time I was in a shuk (like a large open air marketplace) in Israel, haggling was how the vendors kept themselves entertained. They get rich off idiot tourists who pay $7 for a can of soda, and have fun with the locals or people who are used to it. Personally I have a lot of fun with it. I've gotten some great deals from craigslist, FB marketplace, and even ebay by bartering a bit. Of course some people just aren't into it and I don't press them, but too often they're the ones who keep a craigslist ad alive for over a year not understanding why they haven't sold yet.


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## kb58 (Nov 13, 2020)

Indeed


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## C-Bag (Nov 13, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> . Some people will try and talk the price down on free stuff,



LOL! So true.....


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## darkzero (Nov 13, 2020)

Dave's @mmcmdl favorite barn dust!   




This seller lost $800 for cleaning the magic dust off half of the windshield!

1971 Pontiac Grand Prix Model J - One Owner
Selling a ONE OWNER 1971 Pontiac Grand Prix Model J with what is believed to be 49,560 miles on it but true mileage unknown. It’s equipped with the numbers matching 400 cubic inch engine which sports an automatic transmission. Factory Air Conditioning and Power Windows. The interior is original with a solid dash and everything intact. This car is an all green colored vehicle with the original paint, grill, bumpers, and trim. Been sitting in an old dry chicken coupe since 1988. The asking price is $6,000 OBO. Serious inquiries/offers only.


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