# Do you have a question on rebuilding I could help you with?



## Richard King 2 (May 1, 2019)

Hello everyone,
For those who don't know me,  I am a Journeyman Machine Tool Rebuilder and when Hobby Machinist started, I was this forums Moderator.  I answered the members questions on all things mechanical repair of machines.   As you can read I have been teaching people how to scrape and rebuild machines.   I would be happy to help you.  Just ask.   If you want to see more about me I have a web site handscraping.com  

Below are Some gifts I have receive from the Machine Tool Industry of Taiwan where I have taught a total of 3 years there in 20 years of trips.  The other is from students in Austria.   If you read my testimonials in my website you can see one from Timken bearing and Spinner machine a new machine builder in Germany and Turkey.  Plus my Hobby Machinist student on here.   Makes me proud when they write about what they learned!


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## vocatexas (May 1, 2019)

Hello Mr. King. I was really hoping to take your Texas class in February but my schedule wouldn't allow. Are there any plans for another one next year?


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## Richard King 2 (May 1, 2019)

Steve Watkins has to decide on that.   He is retired now and he and his wife have a big RV.  One of the students in the last class lives in Austin and he said he wants to do one next year.   If I am healthy and am asked. I would do it.   
Rich.


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## MontanaLon (May 1, 2019)

How much wear on lathe ways is too much? Keep in mind it will be for hobby use and not making parts for NASA. I've been looking at a lot of used lathes lately and the amount of wear on some has concerned me to the point I have passed on them. Most of them have been 60-70 years old and I expect some wear but at what point is the wear unrecoverable? 

And assuming the wear isn't terminal, is there any benefit to flaking without scraping in slowing down the wear? If the purpose of flaking is to allow oil to hold on the surface of the part when the flaking is worn off is there any benefit to refreshing it?


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## vocatexas (May 1, 2019)

That would be great if it happens. My county is the geographic center of Texas, so that would make the trip two hours as opposed to six for me. I'll be watching for the announcement!


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## Richard King 2 (May 1, 2019)

MontanaLon said:


> How much wear on lathe ways is too much? Keep in mind it will be for hobby use and not making parts for NASA. I've been looking at a lot of used lathes lately and the amount of wear on some has concerned me to the point I have passed on them. Most of them have been 60-70 years old and I expect some wear but at what point is the wear unrecoverable?
> 
> And assuming the wear isn't terminal, is there any benefit to flaking without scraping in slowing down the wear? If the purpose of flaking is to allow oil to hold on the surface of the part when the flaking is worn off is there any benefit to refreshing it?



You can see some real bargains if you wait.  There is a simple method to check to see if a lathe is worn out and has a camouflaged fix that many used machine dealers do..  You look at the rack under the ways.  if the teeth are the same size from front to back the machine has not been used much.  If the rack near the front has sharp teeth, then pass on it.   As far as accuracy goes.  It depends on if you are going to use the lathe with and with-out the tailstock between centers.   Or just do short work and drill with tail stock.   I have seen some totally worn out machines turn a bit bigger by the chuck, but the operator files or emery clothes  the  big end.   A quick and dirty way is to take a mag base and indicator with when you inspect the machine and mag it to the saddle front wing and indicator on ways reaching out as far to the front as you can reach.  Then crank it toward the tailstock end.  remember the wear on the saddle ways doubles as your turning one side.   Another trick one can do is twist the bed out of level / alignment so it cuts straight if your only doing shorts.   Be sure to run the machine and run it it in all the spindle speeds and feeds on quick change.  not running it is like buying a car at a used dealers lot and not starting it and taking it for a test drive.  If you are buying it in another city buy a cheap seat on an airplane and go test it.  better safe then sorry.  One can't trust many when it comes to selling used machines from folks.   1/2 moon flaking helps improve the lubrication.   But remember many dealers flake the machines to camouflage worn out machines.


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## Suzuki4evr (May 2, 2019)

Good day Mr. King
I have mill/drill machine and I am thinking of making a raiser block to get a bit more travel on my z-axis. I am wondering,can I use aluminium or must it be cast iron? Basically it will be a spacer and the head will not be moving on that part when I need to swing it over. The machine design is in such  manner that I can make a spacer and just use longer bolts.












The reason for asking is that aluminium would be easier to come by in the size needed to manufadcture the spacer and easier and cleaner than cast iron,but cast iron would probably be better but harder to come by. I would appreciate your opinion on this. 

Thank you 
Michael


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## Bob Korves (May 2, 2019)

FYI, that style machine in the photos is usually called a "knee mill", not a mill/drill.  Using that nomenclature will help to avoid poor communication...


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## Suzuki4evr (May 2, 2019)

Hi Bob.
I called it a mill/drill because of what is on the name plate. But sorry if I got the name wrong. Thanks Bob


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## Bob Korves (May 2, 2019)

Not Richard, but here is my take on it.  Aluminum has a lower modulus of elasticity than cast iron does, which means it flexes easier, and does not dampen vibration as well as cast iron, either.  The head will not be as rigid after installing the spacer anyway, due to the longer path between table and head, and using aluminum for the spacer will just make it less rigid yet.  How much that might impact your work depends on a lot of unknown things, like how you use the mill.


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## Suzuki4evr (May 2, 2019)

That is what I thought the answer might be. So I am going to see if I can get a piece of cast iron somewhere. Thanks for your input Bob. Always like reading your inputs,always informative. Guess it comes with experience.


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## Bob Korves (May 2, 2019)

OK, actually column and knee, though that description is not used in conversations I look at...





						Column and Knee Type Milling Machine – Education Discussion
					






					www.educationdiscussion.com


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## Bob Korves (May 2, 2019)

Let's get an answer from Richard and others.  I am no expert, to say the least...  Just first to hit the post button.


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## Suzuki4evr (May 2, 2019)

Bob do you perhaps know from wich country my mill is?I searched before, but could not find anything really.


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## Suzuki4evr (May 2, 2019)

I think it is British but I can be mistaken


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## Bob Korves (May 2, 2019)

It looks to be Chinese or Taiwanese.  No label?


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## Suzuki4evr (May 2, 2019)

Never saw one


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## Richard King 2 (May 2, 2019)

Hi, sorry for the delay.   I would go with cast iron also as a first choice.  If you were in the states I would say contact Dura-Bar in Woodstock IL.  Seeing your in South Africa and it maybe difficult to find pre cast -cast iron I would settle with what you can find.   You understand that milling on a machine like that is "lightweight" even without a riser and depending on the thickness you use, it will be less.    I have used Cast Iron plate to rise Fellows gear shapers and I mill out the center to lighten the riser.  If your only drilling holes and light milling I would think Aluminum would work.  If your planing on milling steel then I would use cast iron.   It looks like a Chinese or Taiwanese machine.   Look at the motor and see if it says.    Rich


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## Suzuki4evr (May 2, 2019)

Thank you Rich. I do some heavy milling sometimes so I will go with the cast iron or leave it as is. Thanks for the tip,I will check and see if there is something on the motor.


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## Bob Korves (May 2, 2019)

Shortening up your tooling helps a lot, and you can also mount work directly to the table, gaining some headroom by getting the vise out of the equation.


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## Suzuki4evr (May 2, 2019)

Yes I always try to get the work as low as possible, but it gets tricky sometimes, as you know, a specially  when using a dividing head in the vertical position or rotary table.


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## Cadillac (May 2, 2019)

I have a question for you Richard. I have a tapered gib on the cross slide of my 14x40 lathe. I decided to take apart the cross slide and check it out to see if I could better anything. Found the gib is bowed in both directions. Can this be fixed or should a new one be made? I have been able to straighten the dovetail surfaces but haven’t addressed the top and bottom surfaces. If the gib is in its position the bow is frowning. 
 Another question now that I think of it is how tall should the gib be in relation to the dovetail. Mine is about flush with the top of the saddle dovetail with about a 1/16-1/8 to the bottom side of the topslide. Ive experienced the gib raising  up in the dovetail when adjusting and I put copper shims between the topslide and gib to keep seated in the dovetail. I believe it’s because of the bends in the gib causing it to not seat correctly?? Should the gib be taller than the dovetail?
 When dealing with scraping a cross slide, if it has a bow in it. Where do you start to scrap? All surfaces were machined and it bowed so everything has a bow top, bottom,dovetails, etc all going the same way frowning high in center.  Thank u for your time and expertise!


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## MontanaLon (May 2, 2019)

Very good information, thank you Richard. I hadn't considered looking at the rack to see the wear there. Now I wish I had on a couple of machines so I could compare the other things that made me pass. One of the lathes I looked at was really nice looking but when I tightened the saddle lock to just give resistance to the hand wheel it would move about 4 inches toward the tail stock and then go no further. I had to loosen it up considerably to get it to move again and then it was fine the rest of the way. I bet the rack at the headstock was sharp. When I lifted on the saddle there was visible movement in the whole thing. Actually, when I checked the cross slide, the whole saddle would rotate side to side. Other than that it was in good shape. No crash damage on the compound, no gear damage in the headstock. At the right price it would probably be good for some parts but the bed was shot in my estimation.


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## Janderso (May 3, 2019)

Hey Rich is back. I thought you went camping.


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## Richard King 2 (May 4, 2019)

MontanaLon said:


> Very good information, thank you Richard. I hadn't considered looking at the rack to see the wear there. Now I wish I had on a couple of machines so I could compare the other things that made me pass. One of the lathes I looked at was really nice looking but when I tightened the saddle lock to just give resistance to the hand wheel it would move about 4 inches toward the tail stock and then go no further. I had to loosen it up considerably to get it to move again and then it was fine the rest of the way. I bet the rack at the headstock was sharp. When I lifted on the saddle there was visible movement in the whole thing. Actually, when I checked the cross slide, the whole saddle would rotate side to side. Other than that it was in good shape. No crash damage on the compound, no gear damage in the headstock. At the right price it would probably be good for some parts but the bed was shot in my estimation.



Scroll to 5:29 minute in this You Tube show. 




99.9% of the time if the machine was made by a good builder and not some Asian crap machine the gib was made correctly.  The back of the gib match fit the back and front side.  So if the gib is bent it is from wear on the front side and the gib front has the frown and the back is normally scraped flat, so you need to bend it so the back is straight and then match fit the front side to the scraped ways it rides against. 

If the gib tightens when one side moves up of down the problem is the dovetail angles on the riding way and the dovetail slide.  Many never check the angles.  It is simple to get them matched that many never do, because no one has ever told them or showed them.  Self taught and reading the Connelly book.  Before match fitting the short moving dovetail slide to the long dovetail way.  tip the slide on the side and check the dovetails with a prism or angled straight edge.  Both the riding side and the dovetail that the gib rests against.  They are both 90% of the time are high in the middle.  The middle needs to be scraped out so it doesn't rock.  As I tell students, how the heck can you hinge the dovetail slide when you bluing it up?  You can't so you prepare before bluing them up. 

On the side behind the gib VERY IMPORTANT is to rub the tapered gib side of the short slide up against the base or longer slide and "match" fit that side the gib back sets against blues up all the way from top to bottom so it is parallel top to bottom of the 2 surfaces.  Then when you scrape the gib and it hits on the side top or bottom side of the gib you not only scrape the long taper to fit you scrape the face of the gib front.   I hope this makes sense as it is a real pain trying to explain .  It is unimportant if it is a 44, 45, 46 degree angle as long as both side match fit each other. .  Also you have to be sure the gib end faces are at right angles to the length.  so when you tighten the gib screw it doesn't twist the gib in.  Another issue many forget is a bent gib screw.  Then if the gib goes into far you epoxy some Rulon 142 or Turcite B to the front side of the gib.

I have never seen a gib bent top to bottom as you described.  You machine must be a cheapo  machine or someone dropped the gib.   I tell students .010 to .020" thinner then the opening top to bottom.  Most of the time you have to mill down the clearance surface or top of short side top of dovetails.  One has to watch out for the feed screw alignment too.


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## Cadillac (May 9, 2019)

Thank you for the response Richard. The machine in question is fairly new so I’m not dealing with wear issues on the gib or cross slide it’s poor fitment from the factory. Is what it is so I am gonna make it the best I can. 
 Unfortunately the gib is bent up and down I can fit a .015 in the center. First picture is the way it lays in machine. Bow in center I am pushing down on other side so you can see air gap on fat end of gib. Second pic is upside down can better see the bend .015 in center consistent arc to ends. 




 Gib height is .065 smaller than opening, its a smidge taller than male dovetail on saddle. I’m really considering making a new one. I’m in the process of scraping a straight edge to check the dovetails. If all goes good with that it might give me the confidence to make a gib. Then I won’t have to worry about realigning everything and have enough on the original and most worry some is straightening the pretzel of a gib.


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## Richard King 2 (May 9, 2019)

Harbor Freight?   A student brought one of those to a class and it was fit that way.    A new gib would make sense after seeing that joke.  Looks like the ground surface of the cross-slide needs to be square cut or 1/2 moon flaked.


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## Cadillac (May 9, 2019)

The bottom of the cross slide was ground on all surfaces and the bottom had flaking that’s it no scraping or fitting. Cross slide also had a slight bow I scraped the flats and am working on the SE for the dovetails. 
 The lathe is a 14x40 optimum lathe I’ve seen sold through grainger. Didn’t have problems with surface finishes or tolerances surprisingly. Only issue was that gib floating up. Watching videos of Stephan rebuilding a compound and the easy of the slide made me curious and I started investigating and found what I did so now I have to fix it.


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## Richard King 2 (May 9, 2019)

Stefan has taken 2 of my classes.  One in Norway and one in Germany.  I asked him to be my interpreter for the German class.
Pic's L to R :  Stefan showing the group how my King-Way worked while he scraped his small surface grinder table :  Stephan turning the small test bar we used to show the group how to test Tail Stock alignment and where we taught that class in Stuttgart.


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## eeler1 (May 10, 2019)

How to straighten a bent gib;


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## Chris Colbert (May 15, 2019)

I'd be happy to host a class at my shop in Austin Texas, either late this year or sometime next year. Whatever works best for everyone.


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## Richard King 2 (May 16, 2019)

I could do one in December a weekday or weekend class.   Or another 2020 date.  I am going to cut back next year on the classes as my wife and I plan on traveling more next year.  She is retiring the end of Jan.   Bourn & Koch in Rockford IL decided on a class this August.  19- 23.   I plan on starting a new thread next week when I return from the class I am teaching in VT now.


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## Janderso (Jul 23, 2019)

Richard,
I just posted this on the Questions thread.
Picked up this 1966 B&S fully auto 618 Micromaster.
It's in very good shape.
Just not sure how to get to the bijur fittings to replace them.
I have good lubrication in some spots but not in others.
Do No Harm!
I want to do this right from the get go.
Any help?
Please.
Thanks,
Jeff Anderson, Vacaville Class


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 23, 2019)

Check the manual and look for the lubrication manifolds on the machine.  You need to replace all the fittings and just not 1 or 5 .  It's like replacing 1 spark plug if you get my drift.  Also clean out the felt filter on the bottom of the pump.  It looks ass backwards with the screens, but that's right.  Look for loose connections and smashed copper tubes and leaky rubber hose.   When removing the fittings I made up a hydraulic box wrench by taking a box wrench and slicing a slot with air grinder cut off wheel to slide over the tube.  The metering units (jets) will loosen in manifold and not on the top sleeve nut and if your not careful you can twist the copper tubing.  The special wrench comes in hand.  hold the metering unit the use a end wrench or another special wrench to unscrew it.  Might be smart to blow out the lines too...The metering units have an ----> arrow for flow direction and a number...I am guessing FJB 0 for low use areas' up to FJB 2 for more oil...make a sketch or print out the page in the manual and mark the page as you remove them.   The tubing is 5/32 special size from BiJur.  I would probably buy from Bijur and not some knock off made in china.  LubeUSA in SC sells them, but be careful from Devcon...they are super expensive.  When you install the new ones I sometime use some loc-tite Teflon white paste on the threads.  a little dab will do you on threads.  Be sure to turn them backwards to get the thread started.  feel it fall into the thread and then carefully tighten them as the get cross threaded super easy.   Rich http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/16566.pdf  please share this in the regular forum as it should benefit them too.  Thanks


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## Janderso (Jul 23, 2019)

That's the book. I have it.
I found #0 and #5 emitters for the block that's plugged.
Good point, change them all!!
John York seems to think I can access through the front panel, others say to remove the table.What do you think?
I have two filters, both have been cleaned and replaced (wool) 
Rich, these ways are sweet! Very well made machine.
Thank you very much!


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 23, 2019)

be a detective....the table uses a timing belt it looks like not a lead screw like the one dude says
the up and down uses a screw and the in and out plus a hyd. cylinder...I would guess the manifiolds are hidden but accessible...  Yes B&S are super machines...  I rebuilt several...the spindle head uses nylon pads instead of cast on cast.   You might find the manifolds under covers when you crank the column back all the way.   would be smart to clean under their too...as that's where all the grit goes.  I see on the lube drawing it shows the metering unit flow number.   larger the number the more you get.


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