# Atlas/Craftsman Lathe Motor and Countershaft Pulleys



## kcoffield (Nov 27, 2020)

I converted my 12” bench top lathe to a under drive cabinet model, and mentioned in my intro and refurb thread here:









						New Caretaker of Two 12” Craftsman Lathes
					

Hi all, first post here. I’m the new caretaker of two 12” Craftsman lathes, one with a 42” bed and the other 54”. Though they recently came into my possession they are well known to me. The 42 is model 101.07403 number SN 16014 and the 54 is model 101.07403 SN 22500. The only place I’ve found...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




…when I bought the lathe cabinet surplus, I got everything except the 2-step countershaft and motor pulley. Seems the folks on eBay think the large pulley is worth $150 and the motor pulley $60-$70. With shipping that would be $260+ and that aint happenin for a couple pulleys. I looked/watched for 3-4 months and made offers but no dice so I decided, screw it……..I’ll make them…..it’ll be a good first project to commission the lathe. I didn’t have any suitable stock but do have a home foundry and do some lost foam casting which makes the stock essentially free and saves machining time so I made some lost foam patterns for pulley blanks on my pin router.




Here are the resulting castings.




There is a thread on the casting project is here. You may have to join the forum to view the pictures.









						Lathe Motor and Countershaft Pulleys
					

As part of the lathe restoration project I started here,  http://forums.thehomefoundry.org/index.php?threads/dro-mount-for-lathe-restoration.1397/  and...




					forums.thehomefoundry.org
				




….anyway, the castings are designed to be about .060” material rich in the OD, faces, and grooves. Not quite sure how I will machine the large pulley. I’m thinking chuck on the largest OD with small step outward, bore the shaft, machine what features I can, remove the pulley, make an arbor and press it into the shaft bore, re-chuck the pulley on the arbor, machine the last/larger groove and face. Sound reasonable?

The odd thing about this whole endeavor, I couldn’t justify paying the eBay prices for these pulleys but on the other hand, I also couldn’t justify selling the ones I made for the prices being asked eBay…..just stubborn I guess.

Best,
Kelly


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## markba633csi (Nov 27, 2020)

Beautiful castings, and your proposed machining procedure sounds reasonable
-Mark


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## Bi11Hudson (Nov 27, 2020)

kcoffield said:


> The odd thing about this whole endeavor, I couldn’t justify paying the eBay prices for these pulleys but on the other hand, I also couldn’t justify selling the ones I made for the prices being asked eBay…..just stubborn I guess.
> Best,
> Kelly


I quite agree, about *125%* worth. The disturbing significant part of the whole situation is the amount of trouble effort you went through to create the sheaves from "scratch" while the ones on eBay are used and the only effort the seller went to was to remove the assembly from a broken machine and clean things up a bit. There was no real effort on their part, nothing like what it takes to make one from nothing.

There are many variables regarding the pricing, several of which get into my "political perspectives" so I can't really go into them here. I'm a "radical liberterian" for lack of a better description. When I went to sea in the late '60s, a pack of Camels was $0.13, 13 cents. My income never rose as fast or as far as that pack of cigarettes.

The value of your pulleys falls into the same catagory. The best analogy I have found is by Rob't Heinlein where he compares prices then and now to a loaf of bread. That is the bottom line, something to eat. In my childhood, that loaf of bread was 12 cents at the grocery. That was then. . . By the time I had enlisted, it was up to near 20 cents. A different location, granted. But "used" bread at the day old store was 10 cents a loaf so we got by.

I could preach for hours on the subject, so I best leave now. Just remember, the eBay seller is a salesman at heart. They're out to make a profit, from their perspective. The true value of what they sell is irrelevent to them.

.


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## kcoffield (Nov 27, 2020)

Bi11Hudson said:


> Just remember, the eBay seller is a salesman at heart. They're out to make a profit, from their perspective.



I don't necessarily have any problem with them making a profit, but if the part sits there for a year and doesn't sell I'd say it's overpriced and they will make no profit because it wont sell. To me it's just too high a percentage of the value of the lathe to spend on what it is.......a pulley.



Bi11Hudson said:


> There was no real effort on their part, nothing like what it takes to make one from nothing.



There is a great level of satisfaction in making something from nothing......because you can and have the skill too and not always to just make a buck at it. Someone has to add value to the economy......we can't all be doctors lawyers, and banker......LOL!

..........but I still have to successfully machine them so the last chapter has not been completed!

Best,
Kelly


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## wa5cab (Nov 28, 2020)

The "true value" of anything is what it costs to make plus a markup that will allow the seller to stay in the business of making and selling widgets.  It is an unfortunate fact of life that too many buyers think that too many sellers are charging too many dollars for whatever it is that they (the buyers) want to buy from them (the sellers).

But if a potential buyer elects instead to make the mystical part instead of buying it but wouldn't be willing to make and sell the parts for the original asking price, then there probably wasn't anything wrong with the original asking price.  

The castings do look nice.  Good luck with finishing them.


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## chippermat (Nov 28, 2020)

That's pretty dang cool, good job and thanks for sharing. Report back on how you finish machine them, if you would please.


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## kcoffield (Nov 28, 2020)

wa5cab said:


> But if a potential buyer elects instead to make the mystical part instead of buying it but wouldn't be willing to make and sell the parts for the original asking price, then there probably wasn't anything wrong with the original asking price.



So true, except they never sell, but the usual reason for make versus buy is I have the time but not the money.......in my case I'm just cheap and I can!

Best,
Kelly


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## JPMacG (Nov 28, 2020)

The original large counter-shaft pulley on my lathe wobbled.  I purchased a used pulley on eBay for around $70 and, no surprise, it wobbled too. Then  I bored out and bushed the original pulley, but did not have a good alignment reference, so the bushed pulley also wobbled.  My 12-inch Atlas is not large enough to cut the outer diameter so I can't make one myself from plate.  I gave up and decided to live with some wobble.

If anyone offered a well-machined replacement pulley I would be interested.  I think Atlas's large old die cast pulleys must develop warp over the years.


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## kcoffield (Nov 28, 2020)

JPMacG said:


> The original large counter-shaft pulley on my lathe wobbled. I purchased a used pulley on eBay for around $70 and, no surprise, it wobbled too


Funny you should mention that because that pulley I borrowed from the other lathe that I show mounted in this post wobbles too. I haven't put a dial on it but you can actually see it and I'm guessing maybe .015"++ each side of the center line. I think the noise is caused by the run out bouncing the hub back and forth off the bearing/hub face. Very annoying because when I first fired up the refurb, it was very quiet except for that lower countershaft in the cabinet with the wobbly pulley. Then I went to the other Craftsman lathe I have and took a close look there and same thing. These pulleys have the classic _"S"_ shaped spoke which is supposed to be a superior design for cast spokes but they may be more easily susceptible to damage.


JPMacG said:


> My 12-inch Atlas is not large enough to cut the outer diameter so I can't make one myself from plate.


Hope you're wrong about that. I thought I could hang a tool in a boring bar on the outboard side of my AXA tool post, angle the compound and cut the 17 degree groove........if not I'll be getting out my begging bowl. But, if that scheme works, my first move will be to bore the pulley, and then mount it on an arbor to machine the other features so should run quiet & true......wouldn't you think?


JPMacG said:


> I gave up and decided to live with some wobble


Never give in!

Best,
Kelly


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 28, 2020)

Hi Kelly (@kcoffield),

That’s very impressive!

Please let me know if you change your mind about making a countershaft pulley to sell. I pulled a bozo move and broke mine this week. 

I’m finding what you found: $100 used on ebay. Or little machine shop has the aluminum redesign for $150, I believe. I haven’t ordered anything yet because I’m waiting to call Clausing on Monday. I’ll be surprised if they have any cast parts in stock, but it’s worth a phone call. 

My lathe is an Atlas 10F with horizontal countershaft, but I believe the countershaft pulley is identical to the Craftsman 12”. Oddly, the Atlas parts list I have labels it a 560-060, but my pulley has the same part number from a Craftsman 12” parts list I have: 9-427


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## JPMacG (Nov 29, 2020)

Randy, please let us know if Clausing still has the pulley.

Kelly, please post photos of your setup when you machine the large pulley casting.  I could not think of a way to do it myself, but I am not very creative.   And yes, if you machine it yourself as you describe it should run true.  I made the motor pulley and the small countershaft pulley from aluminum and they run perfectly true - no perceptible wobble.


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## kcoffield (Nov 29, 2020)

RandyMcNally said:


> Oddly, the Atlas parts list I have labels it a 560-060, but my pulley has the same part number from a Craftsman 12” parts list I have: 9-427



I believe they are interchangeable but different parts. 560-060 is the heavier part with the three holes in the hub used on newer versions of the lathe. It may be sand cast aluminum....dunno, cuz I've never actually seen one. 9-427 is the die cast Zamak part.

Best,
Kelly


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## kcoffield (Nov 29, 2020)

JPMacG said:


> Kelly, please post photos of your setup when you machine the large pulley casting.


Here's what I was thinking JP. Chuck on the large pulley OD in 3-jaw, and bore a .750" shaft hole. Maybe face the accessible diameter and annular surfaces while you're there since it will be held securely. Then make an arbor, press it into the shaft hole, chuck on the arbor, and set up as below with a boring bar or tool holder mounted outboard on the tool post.




Will probably need to make a round or square cutting tool and make a tool holder with a hole or slot with a set screw to hold the cutting tool to reach the inside groove on the smaller step but it should work for all grooves. Set the compound at 17 degrees and advance the compound to cut grooves.




Light cuts! Seems like it should work......we'll see.

Best,
Kelly


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## JPMacG (Nov 30, 2020)

Looks good Kelly.  Hopefully with light enough cuts you won't have rigidity issues. Please let us know how it goes.  And if you ever feel like producing the large pulley castings for sale please let me know.  I would try to do the finish machining myself.


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 30, 2020)

kcoffield said:


> I believe they are interchangeable but different parts. 560-060 is the heavier part with the three holes in the hub used on newer versions of the lathe. It may be sand cast aluminum....dunno, cuz I've never actually seen one. 9-427 is the die cast Zamak part.
> 
> Best,
> Kelly





JPMacG said:


> Randy, please let us know if Clausing still has the pulley.



@kcoffield @JPMacG Clausing *does* have the pulley in stock.  I've only called them 3 times, and they've had all 3 parts in stock (half-nut scroll, carriage lock, and this countershaft pulley).  That absolutely blows my mind.

Ordered one today.  $86 + shipping.  In my giddiness, I forgot to ask him my total with shipping.  Actually...one sec I'll check my bank.  $111.04 to my door.  So:  holy crap on the shipping, but still a helluva deal compared to eBay - especially for an assumedly new part.  And hopefully that means either a wobble free part, or I can hold them accountable for a wobbly part.

He did confirm for me (well, via the picture in his system; he did not physically check the part on the shelf) this is the "Craftsman style" with 3 concentric weight-saving holes.  It is not the "Atlas style" with 4 curved spokes/arms.  He did not know which part number it is, only that 560-060 and 9-427 both cross-referenced to this 3-hole style he has in stock.  And he said he has "a few" of them in stock.

I asked a couple extracurricular questions about their vintage stock.  Is there any rhyme or reason to which parts they do/don't stock?  Without laughing at me, can you confirm there's nothing close to an inventory or catalogue for customers?
I'll summarize his answers:  

No rhyme or reason.  Some parts they have; some they don't.  
They have parts to machinery (not limited to lathes, of course) going back to 1930's.  
They sell "a lot" of this vintage stock.  
Some of it is new old stock.  
Some of the parts are actually manufactured new (this surprised me the most) - parts that sell well and they still have the prints for.  
And sometimes when a NOS item is depleted, they still make this determination:  was this a part that sold well, do we have the prints, cost evaluation of having this part manufactured, etc.  
No catalogue or customer-accessible inventory, of course.
Oh and, in response to a comment I made, he acknowledged they are very much aware of the price-inflated eBay market, and giving customers a fair-price alternative is exactly what they strive to do.
fyi I've done a good amount of paraphrasing.

Very interesting!


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 30, 2020)

@kcoffield I completely glossed over the fact that you still have to figure out how to do the compound angle turning -- on a part my tape measure puts at 9 5/16" diameter -- on a 10" swing lathe.  As such, I would say I'm still _technically_ interested to know if you ever make any to sell, but I'll assume that you would rightfully want 3 times the eBay price. 

Your intended setup looks good to me.  But I know squat.  I don't know if you guys saw my other "broken pulley" post, but you're talking to a guy that is currently JB Weld'ing his broken pulley hahaha.  Now, I'll give the same obligatory statement: this is out of boredom, not an expectation of success.  But I will say: I swear it's turned out straighter than before I broke it .  So I may have to retract my promise not to spin it up under power, but I'll downgrade it to:  I'll at least back the car out of the garage and hide behind a piece of 3/4" ply that is not perpendicular to the spindle.


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## kcoffield (Nov 30, 2020)

RandyMcNally said:


> ......but you're talking to a guy that is currently JB Weld'ing his broken pulley hahaha.





RandyMcNally said:


> Your intended setup looks good to me.......I completely glossed over the fact that you still have to figure out how to do the compound angle turning --


I think it should work but it's not free from doubt. It's big diameter but that just means lower speed. I don't see any problem advancing the compound that small distance for the groove at the set angle. The initial cuts will likely be a bit hariy because the casting will have some run out and dimensional inaccuracies that will cause interrupted cutting initially.


RandyMcNally said:


> on a part my tape measure puts at 9 5/16" diameter.


I measured mine at 9 3/16".....

Here's an eBay seller that sells pulleys at reasonable prices in sizes that will work on Atlas Craftsman Lathes. There are large single groove pulleys in 7", 8", 9" 10" in 3/4 bore for the countershaft. Also smaller 2"/3" step pulley's in 1/2" and 5/8" bore for $17. Not strictly the OE set up but may be a less expensive alternative for some. The links may go dead but the seller's name is Shornutz.

Items for sale by shorenutz | eBay

Her's the 9" 3/4" bore -$34

Chicago Die Cast Single V Groove Pulley A Belt 9" OD X 3/4" Bore 900A7 | eBay

Best,
Kelly


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## wa5cab (Dec 1, 2020)

Someone recently made the statement that you didn't really need the speeds given be one or the other of the two groove pairs of the original pulleys.  In my experience over the past 40 years, that isn't true unless you never try to run the SFM at more of less the optimum value for the material and its diameter.  I do, and find that I frequently switch from the faster to the slower speeds or vice versa.


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## kcoffield (Feb 20, 2021)

Finally got back on the pulleys and finished them up. I used a couple calculators I found online to tweak the pitch diameters so the centerline distance was the same for each of the two sheave combinations, so the belt tension should remain the same when switched and not require tension adjustment. I decided to machine the smaller pulley first, as it didn’t pose any problem for the lathe capacity.

I chucked on the smaller sheave diameter in the 3-jaw, machined the larger OD, faced, and bored it for a .625” shaft. I used a grooving tool to cut the bottom of the v-groove width and depth, then used this little boring bar with the with the compound set at 17 degrees from each side to cut the faces of the larger diameter sheave. I’m not sure what the dinky little insert is…..it may be HSS, I don’t know. It came from a bunch of tooling I inherited, but it was a sharp little bugger.






Had to check the belt to make sure I was on the right track.




Next, I drilled the set screw in the root of the larger sheave.




I turned a small 5/8” stub shaft and mounted the pulley on the shaft with the set screw, then proceeded to turn the features on the smaller diameter sheave.




….and the turning work was done on the small pulley.




Next up was the larger pulley. The finished OD was 9.188 on the large pulley. I had to get creative for the larger OD sheave as it was at the very outer limits of the capacity of the 12” Atlas. I used the four jaw, gripped on the smaller sheave, and indicated in the diameter and face. The casting was far from perfect. I gave them a T5 heat treat and that helps quite a bit but you’ll never get wrought stock finishes. The first cuts were interrupted but I started at .010” until I got continuous contact.




I proceeded to face and bore it for the .75” shaft. It was nice having the VFD and being able to step up/down the speed on the fly for the hub and outer diameters.




Next, I used a grooving/parting tool to cut the bottom of the large sheave to width and diameter. This was a bit hairy. I had the compound and cross slide fully retracted and still had to move the tool back in the holder. The machine was really vulnerable in this position so I took VERY light cuts, but there was still high pucker factor.




Then I did the near side groove face with the boring bar and compound set at 17 degrees…..also very light cuts. I could not reach the head stock side of the groove from this set up.




Then I set up a very crude fixture on the mill to bore the set screw. It was just a couple of pieces of angle iron clamped in the vice and then the pulley clamped to the angle iron…..good enough to drill and tap a small hole.




Then I was able to mount the pulley on a .75” stub shaft and chuck it in the 3-jaw. Facing was straight forward on the smaller of sheave side. I was able to use the same small boring bar with the compound alternately set at +-17 degrees to complete the other side of the large OD and both sides of the smaller sheave




......and the turning was done.




Quick check of the belt fit up.




Then I pushed a 3/16 broach through the smaller pulley.




The .75” shaft isn’t keyed on the drive shaft of the original set up. The pulley is just retained with the set screw in a drill point on the shaft. Not sure I like that. I’m considering pulling the shaft and cutting a key way in the shaft and broaching the larger pulley. I may also need to set up and level a couple joiner blades and see how well balanced the larger pulley is, but other than that, the pulleys are ready to be installed.

Best,
Kelly


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## chippermat (Feb 20, 2021)

Good job and nice write up.


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## wa5cab (Feb 21, 2021)

I would agree with you about the key and keyway.  But on the other hand, in the 40+ years that I have had my 3996, the larger pulley has never moved on the shaft.  Which is not true of the motor pulley.  I used to have to loosen the set screw and slide it back onto the motor shaft at least once a month.  I finally bought a split collar from Mcmaster, repositioned the pulley on the motor shaft, and installed the collar on the shaft up hard against the pulley.  Since I did that, the pulley has never moved again.  I probably did that 5 or 6 years ago.  So I think that I would recommend leaving the larger pulley as is.


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## kcoffield (Feb 25, 2021)

Got them installed. I didn’t key the larger pulley or balance it. Just installed it same as the original. Both pulley combinations tension the same and it seems to run nicely. I’m going to call this one a wrap.




Best,
Kelly


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## wa5cab (Feb 25, 2021)

Looks good.  I would suggest that you go ahead and buy from McMaster or whomever a 5/8" split collar and install it on the motor shaft up against the motor pulley and the end of the square key.  Then you can just forget about it.


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## kcoffield (Feb 25, 2021)

wa5cab said:


> I used to have to loosen the set screw and slide it back onto the motor shaft at least once a month. I finally bought a split collar from Mcmaster, repositioned the pulley on the motor shaft, and installed the collar on the shaft up hard against the pulley. Since I did that, the pulley has never moved again.


I thought I understood this when you said it but now I'm not sure. With the 2-step drive pulley I don't have enough shaft length for a collar in a addition to the pulley. What type of split collar bushing and how where did you install it?

Best,
Kelly


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## wa5cab (Feb 26, 2021)

I simply slipped the split collar onto the motor shaft.  But I would guess that my 3/4 HP 120/240 VAC motor must have had a longer shaft than yours.  Or possible the motor pulley is moved to the right farther than yours is.  Which would mean that my countershaft pulley was farther to the right or my motor was farther to the left.  And/or maybe I moved the pulley to the right, shortened the key so that it's left end was flush with the left face of the motor pulley, installed the collar and then slid the motor to the left to get the motor pulley back into the same plane as the countershaft pulley.  Try the latter procedure and see whether or not you can get a stock split collar to work.  I think that I had to grind a little bit off of the side of the square key that is in the keyway in order to get it to allow the pulley to slide freely a little closer to the motor.  But I have slept a few times since I did it.  The split collar is of the 2-piece style, with two socket head cap screws both inserted from the same side of the collar.  There is about 1/8" of the motor shaft sticking out from the collar.  And like on most motor shafts, the keyway is cut with a horizontal mill type cutter, not with an end mill.  So the key way gets shallower near the motor end bell and bearing.  The motor was made by Baldor but I don't think that there was anything special about it.


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