# Brown & Sharpe Tool Makers Universal Vise Help



## gcaldicott (May 3, 2017)

I picked up a Brown & Sharpe Tool Makers Universal Vise recently.  I want to disassemble it to clean it up.  I am stuck and could use some guidance.  Here is the Vise.






I removed the swivel Base and bracing levers.





That leaves the Vise connected to the angle base.





I would like to remove the vise from the angle base, but I'm not sure how.  Below is a picture of the Vise upside down with the angle base open.  In addition to the swivel base, the vise also swivels on the angle base.  I removed the locking bolt and I stuck a screw driver in the slit to spread the hole on the angle base thinking that I could pull the vise out.  Spreading the slot allows the vise to lift about .030", but that's it.  I'm not sure why.  Next I tried to loosen the three slotted cap screws on the round pivet block that protrudes through the angle base and seem to connect it to the vise, but they do not budge.  I assume they are standard right hand threads.  I don't want to break anything.  






Any ideas?
Thanks,
Greg


----------



## 4ssss (May 3, 2017)

You may have to drill out the heads of the screws and easy out the threaded ends. Those screws shown on the round piece are more than likely just retainers for the lead screw bronze nut.   I think if you just spread the casting where it's split, the vise part of the compound will just slide out.  Check to see if there are any set screws on the side that lock the vise  to keep it from swiveling and remove them completely. Sometimes the manufacturer has turned down the front of the screw to fit into a slot, or put a brass round ahead of the screw, and just loosening them won't do it  The good news is that the B&S compound vise is all US made and if you need to replace a screw you can get them  at a hardware store.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 3, 2017)

The vise has had many decades to get frozen up, do not expect to get it apart without damaging things in a few minutes.  Respect the age of the vise and go slowly and carefully.  In the big picture, what is an extra week (or whatever) of time to get it done properly.  Buy some Kroil, PB Blaster, or other good penetrant and put some on the stuck parts.  Not WD40 or equivalents.  Half acetone and half ATF is probably the best and cheapest penetrant.  Wiggle everything as best as you can.  Let sit for half a day or so, then repeat, and keep on repeating until they come loose.  The screws are easily damaged, and that will NOT make it easier to get them out.  Use the penetrant, turn the screws toward tight, and then toward loose. Repeat and repeat at intervals, do not force them.  They will come loose eventually.  It helps if the other ends of the screw holes are accessible, if so, put penetrant there as well.  They should be right hand screws.  The pivot pin is removed by turning the hex head counter clockwise, but my similar vise also had a pin though it in the middle to lock it.  Use penetrant wherever it might help.  Excessive penetrant is just a waste of it.  It needs to get into the stuck places, not bathe the vise.  Again, take. your. time. be. careful.  Walk away if you start getting impetuous, and do something else for a while until you settle down.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 3, 2017)

Those vises are very versatile and handy to have around.  They are nowhere near as rigid as a standard milling machine vise.  Go really easy with your cuts if you use it on a milling machine.  They are great on a surface grinder or tool grinder, and I think that is what they were originally intended for.  Your vise is larger than mine, so it might do better on a mill..


----------



## gcaldicott (May 3, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Those vises are very versatile and handy to have around.  They are nowhere near as rigid as a standard milling machine vise.  Go really easy with your cuts if you use it on a milling machine.  They are great on a surface grinder or tool grinder, and I think that is what they were originally intended for.  Your vise is larger than mine, so it might do better on a mill..


Honestly, the vise is a beast!  It ways 135 lbs.  I think it will be rigid enough on my VN12 mill.  That is where I intend to use it.  It is currently soaking in some PB blaster.  I also hit the screws with a MAPP gas torch.  I am taking it easy on the screws because I am not even sure they need to come out.  I really just want to separate the vise from the angle base.  I thought spreading the hole with a screw driver would allow the vise to slide out, but it doesn't seem to move more than about 0.030".


----------



## 4ssss (May 3, 2017)

Try taking off that nut and big washer on the side in pic#2. There may be something under it holding that pin along side it. It appears to be that's what is keeping the upper vise part from coming out.


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

gcaldicott said:


> I thought spreading the hole with a screw driver would allow the vise to slide out,


Put some metal shim stock in the slot (two pieces) and then put your screwdriver or wedge between the shim stock to open the slot a little. The nuts already looks as if a wrench slipped of at some time in history. I would stay away from the heat because you're expanding the screw and you need the reverse. Use a screwdriver that fits the screwheads, preferably with the tip ground flat, not the standard screwdriver taper, then use an adjustable wrench on the blade for a little extra torque as you push down. An impact screwdriver would work well on these too.


----------



## woodchucker (May 3, 2017)

If you have an impact driver, the hammer hits may help loosen the bolts.
Also heat is your friend when trying to remove parts. Try to heat the outter split housing, and don't heat the hub.


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

woochucker said:


> Also heat is your friend when trying to remove parts.


Yeah, you could have used it on the stump.


----------



## woodchucker (May 3, 2017)

I have another stump to do, and may drill a hole in the center and bottom , and burn that one.  My maul handle split in multiple places, and this is just  a small stump... So yea let it burn.

But seriously, I have used heat a number of times to loosen things. As long as you are not getting it red hot.. you are trying to expand it, or loosen the rust.


----------



## gcaldicott (May 3, 2017)

woochucker said:


> If you have an impact driver, the hammer hits may help loosen the bolts.
> Also heat is your friend when trying to remove parts. Try to heat the outter split housing, and don't heat the hub.


I actually tried an impact driver.  It broke the tip off the driver bit. That's when I wondered if the threads could possible be left handed.


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

woochucker said:


> But seriously, I have used heat a number of times to loosen things. As long as you are not getting it red hot.. you are trying to expand it, or loosen the rust.


I agree but not used wisely or without knowledge it can cause more harm than good. Anything above 300°-400° is close to trespassing and should be avoided.


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

gcaldicott said:


> I actually tried an impact driver.  It broke the tip off the driver bit. That's when I wondered if the threads could possible be left handed.


This isn't a brute force job which I think you know. Allow the penetrating fluid to work and you will prevail. Bob stated it well, and the additives in the oils that were used when the vice was in use became a varnish like superglue. Carburetor and choke cleaner with the ATF work well also.


----------



## woodchucker (May 3, 2017)

Try to avoid carb cleaner. Acetone ok. If you ever need welding you can kill someone with phosgene gas from the carb cleaner. The same way cast iron will hold oil, it will hold onto the cleaner.


----------



## woodchucker (May 3, 2017)

gcaldicott said:


> I actually tried an impact driver.  It broke the tip off the driver bit.* That's when I wondered if the threads could possible be left handed*.


Possible, but I don't see why.


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

woochucker said:


> Try to avoid carb cleaner. Acetone ok. If you ever need welding you can kill someone with phosgene gas from the carb cleaner. The same way cast iron will hold oil, it will hold onto the cleaner.


Naptha, tolulene, xylene do not create phosgene gas, it was the propellants that were used, such as R-12, R-22 which cause the phosgene gas problem and these are no longer used.

Edit; I'm not implying the chemicals I mentioned are propellants, they are the main ingredients (or a mix) in carb cleaner. Propane and other refrigerants are used as propellants, along with CO2 but they do not create phosgene gas when heated.


----------



## woodchucker (May 3, 2017)

Thanks, I was not aware of that, I always heard don't use carb cleaner or brake cleaner if you ever intend on welding.

And what I posted below, I had read b4.. So not Freon.. Freon is inert..


----------



## woodchucker (May 3, 2017)

A little quick research and no.. that's not totally true.
https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/facts.asp


Phosgene can be formed when chlorinated hydrocarbon compounds are exposed to high temperatures. Chlorinated hydrocarbon compounds are substances sometimes used or created in industry that contain the elements chlorine, hydrogen, and carbon.
The vapors of chlorinated solvents exposed to high temperatures have been known to produce phosgene. Chlorinated solvents are chlorine-containing chemicals that are typically used in industrial processes to dissolve or clean other materials, such as in paint stripping, metal cleaning, and dry cleaning.
From: http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html

"After reading about Hydrogen Chloride and then started researching phosgene. The chemical in the brake cleaner is Tetrachloroethylene. When this chemical is exposed with excessive heat and argon (used in MIG and TIG welding) it also produces phosgene."


----------



## Bob Korves (May 3, 2017)

I see no reason to use heat on that vise, and several reasons not to use heat...


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

woochucker said:


> A little quick research and no.. that's not totally true.


I'm pretty sure I stated carb or choke cleaner.  All the chemicals I noted may be in carburetor cleaner, in combination or single. I'm aware phosgene is used in many manufacturing processes and the likelyhood of a product being used to remove gunk, rust, etc. and still remain on the vice to cause side affects are slim, slim, and next to none. Remember it wasn't I who suggested firing up the torch. 
I have roots based in HVAC and HVAC repair/service so I am aware of the hazards of phosgene and in most of the cases the posioning was caused by poor safety procedures. i.e. Failure to insure all the refrigerant had been evacuated from the system, or to cheap to do a nitrogen purge.


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

woochucker said:


> Thanks, I was not aware of that, I always heard don't use carb cleaner or brake cleaner if you ever intend on welding.
> 
> And what I posted below, I had read b4.. So not Freon.. Freon is inert..



Freon is a trade name (trademarked) which many people attach to all refrigerants which is incorrect in too many ways to mention. R-12 & R-22, (aka Freon 12 & 22) dichlorodifluoromethane and chlorodifluoromethane respectively which were/are common in many refrigeration systems, were also uses as propellants in aerosols, therein the phosgene gas posioning.


----------



## woodchucker (May 3, 2017)

Ok, my bad, I always put Carb Cleaner and brake cleaner in the same category.   So it's brake cleaner that could get you in serious trouble.


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

woochucker said:


> Ok, my bad, I always put Carb Cleaner and brake cleaner in the same category.   So it's brake cleaner that could get you in serious trouble.


I use any aerosol with caution and for it's intent but I'm not sure about brake cleaner hazards. There are many things that have changed in brakes, brake parts and cleaners, but the propellants have change in all aerosols when it comes to HCFC's. I suggested the carb cleaner for the vise because most brands cut through varnish and petrochemical residue.


----------



## gcaldicott (May 3, 2017)

Thanks for the input guys.  I am convinced that the 3 screws need to come out.  I removed the axle that the angle base pivots on and their was nothing there holding the angle base to the vise.  I think the round vise pivot must be tapered to hold it tight against the angle table. When I open the slot by wedging a screw driver into it I am able to lift the vise about 0.030". As soon as I remove the screw driver, it sucks the vise back snug to the angle base.

I did try an impact screw driver that you bang on with a hmmer.  No luck yet.  I'm not sure any of the PB blaster is getting down where it needs to be.  I'll keep at it.


----------



## benmychree (May 3, 2017)

I own both sizes of these vices and have had both apart; the screws are right handed, and the way to remove them is to get a screwdriver the full width of the slot, and carefully grind the tip for a perfect fit in the screw head, then while exerting maximum pressure downward on the screw, turn the screwdriver with an adjustable wrench to exert maximum torque on the screw.  They should break loose without too much effort.  The part they hold in is tapered smaller at the face of the vice and is keyed onto its mating member and also has pins locating it in line with the key.  
These vices will hold up to fairly heavy cuts if the braces are used to their maximum advantage, that is, keeping them as straight to each other as possible and the tie bolt as far inwards as possible.  I doube that most Hobby Machinists could seriously challenge their ridgidity.


----------



## gcaldicott (May 3, 2017)

benmychree said:


> I own both sizes of these vices and have had both apart; the screws are right handed, and the way to remove them is to get a screwdriver the full width of the slot, and carefully grind the tip for a perfect fit in the screw head, then while exerting maximum pressure downward on the screw, turn the screwdriver with an adjustable wrench to exert maximum torque on the screw.  They should break loose without too much effort.  The part they hold in is tapered smaller at the face of the vice and is keyed onto its mating member and also has pins locating it in line with the key.
> These vices will hold up to fairly heavy cuts if the braces are used to their maximum advantage, that is, keeping them as straight to each other as possible and the tie bolt as far inwards as possible.  I doube that most Hobby Machinists could seriously challenge their ridgidity.


Thank you. That is the confirmation I was looking for. And thanks for the tip on breaking them loose.


----------



## Rustrp (May 3, 2017)

The screwdriver that's commonly called hollow ground isn't commonly found in a big box store. Gunsmithing screwdrivers are hollow ground but you can probably take a tapered blade and hollow grind it to fit what's described. Klein and Greenlee make the hollow ground style "Electrician's Screwdriver." This type of fit doesn't ride up out of the slot when you torque on it.


----------



## benmychree (May 3, 2017)

Rustrp said:


> The screwdriver that's commonly called hollow ground isn't commonly found in a big box store. Gunsmithing screwdrivers are hollow ground but you can probably take a tapered blade and hollow grind it to fit what's described. Klein and Greenlee make the hollow ground style "Electrician's Screwdriver." This type of fit doesn't ride up out of the slot when you torque on it.


What I use is a screwdriver commonly called a machinist's screwdriver; they are forged steel with a squared shank and wooden half handles riveted on ( a "knife handle" screwdriver)  these were common perhaps 70 years ago before the wide use of socket head screws (Allen head), when older machinery was commonly held together by slotted head screws.  Another feature is that they can be struck on the end to loosen stuck screws.  I have several of them and commonly regrind the business end to closely fit the recalcitrant screw that I'm fighting with at the time.


----------



## scwhite (May 3, 2017)

gcaldicott said:


> I picked up a Brown & Sharpe Tool Makers Universal Vise recently.  I want to disassemble it to clean it up.  I am stuck and could use some guidance.  Here is the Vise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was just looking at your upside down picture.
  I think that big round washer with those three screws in it . Is not a washer . I think it is a nut 
I can see to spanner wrench holes in it . If you have a spanner wrench try take if out those three screws and unsrewing that big nut . You might have to make a wrench if you don't have one


----------



## benmychree (May 4, 2017)

Read my earlier post; I have had these apart; what you think are spanner holes are actually dowel pins.


----------



## gcaldicott (May 4, 2017)

Got the screws loose thanks to benmychree!  Everything is disassembled now.  Will post pictures and more info later.


----------



## RandyM (May 4, 2017)




----------



## Rustrp (May 4, 2017)

benmychree said:


> What I use is a screwdriver commonly called a machinist's screwdriver; they are forged steel with a squared shank and wooden half handles riveted on ( a "knife handle" screwdriver)  these were common perhaps 70 years ago before the wide use of socket head screws (Allen head), when older machinery was commonly held together by slotted head screws.  Another feature is that they can be struck on the end to loosen stuck screws.  I have several of them and commonly regrind the business end to closely fit the recalcitrant screw that I'm fighting with at the time.


Ah yes...those old screwdrivers, I can see them now.


----------



## scwhite (May 4, 2017)

benmychree said:


> Read my earlier post; I have had these apart; what you think are spanner holes are actually dowel pins.


Oh ok I can't really tell 
I never have had one apart


----------



## benmychree (May 4, 2017)

Glad to be able to help; these are a fairly rare item, not too many folks have been around them or had them apart; I first encountered one that was broken (the vise had broken under the stationary jaw in the shop that I apprenticed in back in the 1960s; I asked that a new vice be obtained to repair it; the shop made a new one of steel and I had to finish it and mount it and then was able to use it for some toolmaking jobs;  I left that shop in 1970 but maintained contact over the years and when the plant closed and the equipment was sold off, I bought the vise along with a bunch of other stuff for my machine shop; when I retired and sold out, the vise came home with me, we are inseparable!


----------



## gcaldicott (May 5, 2017)

As Promised, following are pictures and details of the fully disassembled vise.  I was finally able to remove the three mounting screws for the tapered center by making a custom fit screw driver with parallel sides that precisely fit the screw slot and using a large set of vise grips to provide the torque necessary to break the screws free.  I made the screw driver from an old wood lathe skew chisel as shown in the last picture.

*All Parts*





*
Swivel Base





Angle Table*





*Tapered Pivot Center and Alignment holes*








*
Vise Body*





*Screw Driver made from old Lathe Skew Chisel




*
Thanks for all the help!


----------



## RandyM (May 5, 2017)




----------



## benmychree (May 5, 2017)

gcaldicott said:


> Got the screws loose thanks to benmychree!  Everything is disassembled now.  Will post pictures and more info later.


Glad to be of help;  it looks to be in very good condition, a bit of cleanup, paint and re assembly and you will have a real back breaker there; plan on figuring out some sort of hoist to handle it.


----------



## Silverbullet (May 5, 2017)

Very nice vise, I'm a sucker for vises for some reason. I think I have at least twenty five all different types , but the old American Made are my choices. I jus bought a clean no dimples or dings , cardinal green 3 quick vise. A bit pricy for me but it's very nice. Good luck with you B&S it's in great shape from the pictures . I have a vise with the compound action but haven't cleaned it up so this is helping me thanks


----------



## hman (May 5, 2017)

Nothing succeeds like success.  Congratulations!


----------



## 4GSR (May 5, 2017)

Always wanted a B & S tool makers vise.  Nice find and appears to be in nice shape!


----------



## Old junk (May 5, 2017)

Awesome vise nice work


----------



## gcaldicott (May 8, 2017)

Vise Cleaned up and painted.


----------



## Bob Korves (May 8, 2017)

Nice job!  Sure fills up the Y (vertical) axis headroom...  Still looks totally useful though!


----------



## gcaldicott (May 8, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Nice job!  Sure fills up the Y (vertical) axis headroom...  Still looks totally useful though!


Yes.  It sure does.  It's bigger than I thought when I committed to buy it.  Hopefully, it will be useful!


----------



## ch2co (May 8, 2017)

That there is one cool looking vice.  Very nice cleanup. Well done.  Enjoy!


----------

