# Anyone an espresso junkie?



## GunsOfNavarone (Jun 5, 2022)

Espresso has been by drug of choice for a couple decades. Over the years it has become a science. Weight in, weight out, time for extraction and of course, more and more higher quality tools. It’s really a parallel to the whole machine bug if you break it down…
Anyway, 20+ years ago it was a cheap simple Krups, such simpler times. What I didn’t know made for such a simple operation. About 7 years ago my wife bought me a Breville and the rabbit hole began to pull me down. 
About 4 months ago I sold my 1986 Steve Stevens Hamer Dayglo to a collector for $2800. Had that guitar by my side since I was 16 or so, anyway, I decided to up my game. I upgraded my Breville grinder to a Rancilio Rocky. One thing lead to another and I just upgraded the Breville Duo temp to a Bezzera BZ13 PM. Now the overly complicated game just doubled. I don’t drink alcohol, though I still have my Jäeger machine from a lifetime left behind me. 
Anyone else on the Barista train? I thought it was interesting when Clough42 did a video of a similar interest.


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## ddickey (Jun 5, 2022)

No, but I do enjoy a good espresso once in a while but my prefered method is the french press. Total coffee snob here. lol


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## FOMOGO (Jun 5, 2022)

I have one occasionally, but make my daily coffee on the way strong side anyway. Just two cups in the morning now days. Mike


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## f350ca (Jun 5, 2022)

An occasional expresso as well, but need my STRONG two cups in the morning, before I can actually speak let alone think, then 2 at my 5 O'clock coffee, I don't do early mornings.

Greg


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## savarin (Jun 5, 2022)

4 shots at 50mls each from my *Jura*, a tablespoon of salted butter, 60mls of thick cream, topped off with hot milk.
My first morning cup. Cant start the day without it.


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## wachuko (Jun 5, 2022)

Yeah… espresso junkies at home…




Right now I have a lever in Ocala and an E61 in Orlando…


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## Just for fun (Jun 6, 2022)

I drink* Espresso blend* but I just use a regular coffee maker..... Does that count?


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## markba633csi (Jun 6, 2022)

Yep I'm infected too.  Customized Expobar dual boiler and modified San Marco grinder
I also roast in good weather with a modified popcorn popper
Mmmm cappuccino! Monsoon Malabar!


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## mikey (Jun 6, 2022)

I roast 2# of beans per week, grind them in a Mazzer Mini and pull shots from a Gen 1 Quick Mill Andreja Premium espresso machine. 3 cups per day, 16oz per cup = Nirvana!


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## addertooth (Jun 6, 2022)

I roast coffee beans, I did some ethiopia washed gedeb worka sakaro gr1 yirgacheffe yesterday, and roasted some 
brazil daterra pearl bourbon peaberry rfa today. In the past week roasted some Kenya AA and some Mexico Altura.
Two types of Kona (extra fancy, and peaberry) are still resting in their bags, waiting for me to have the time to roast them as well.  

I mostly do pour-over prep, as it requires less machinery, but allows direct control of the entire process. A french press sits around, but 
only gets used about once a week.  

I like some of the nuanced coffees that have complex flavors, so not all of my favorites are as heavilly roasted as a espresso is.


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## silence dogood (Jun 6, 2022)

"I love coffee, I love tea.
 I love the java jive and it loves me"
"Java Jive" sang by the Inkspots in 1940.


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## Martin W (Jun 6, 2022)

Espresso Float! 
One scoop each of Hazelnut Gelato and Vanilla Gelato, Fresh whipped cream, two lady finger biscuits, with a shot of espresso drizzled on top. 
I recommend this for anyone having a bad day.
Cheers
Martin


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## 7milesup (Jun 6, 2022)

Martin W said:


> Espresso Float!
> One scoop each of Hazelnut Gelato and Vanilla Gelato, Fresh whipped cream, two lady finger biscuits, with a shot of espresso drizzled on top.
> I recommend this for anyone having a bad day.
> Cheers
> Martin


Crikey that sounds good!


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## 7milesup (Jun 6, 2022)

addertooth said:


> I did some ethiopia washed gedeb worka sakaro gr1 yirgacheffe


Did your spell check hit the guardrails?!   I have no idea what you just said.   LOL


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## wachuko (Jun 6, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Did your spell check hit the guardrails?!   I have no idea what you just said.   LOL


I tried roasting... did not have the patience to get to the blend that I like.  Still have my roaster and will try again in a few years...


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## macardoso (Jun 6, 2022)

Oh cool Wife and I are total coffee snobs. We make a game out of our Sunday's traveling to all the "local" coffee shops (up to an hour away) after church on Sunday to see who can make the best cappuccino. My town is in the top 3 which is good news! My climbing gym can do a great one too if the one girl working there makes it.

We are picky. Gotta be strong and bitter, but not too burnt or acidic. The foam should be the consistency of a thin shaving cream (no big bubbles) and have all the dark espresso solids lifted on top. If the foam disappears from the cup before you're done, or clumps into a ball, then that's no good either. Has to be in a mug, paper to-go cups are blasphemy. One place in Cleveland served it with a small glass of sparkling water - that was an awesome touch. At this point we can almost guess the quality of the coffee when we walk into the place. If they sell cortados, then there's a good chance the espresso drinks will be killer.

I had a cheap $100 Target espresso machine that I was never impressed by. It seems to make a good strong cup of black coffee, but never got the proper extraction and crema of espresso that you would come to expect. It eventually died and I didn't replace it. Following that we had french press, aero press (still a favorite), and pour over.

Finally we ended up with a Nespresso (the shame - I know ) about 3 years ago. It's taken me a while, but I've narrowed in on the handful of capsules that give the best results and have created "recipes" of custom brew times and a bit of better skill with the milk. It's probably 50% as good as a coffee shop, but that is pretty good for home.

I'd love to get the wife a proper espresso machine setup, but I have been turned away by the cost and the fear that it will be more like the Target junk I had before. If you have recommendations for what machines to look at, I'd love to get the bug again to try this.


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## wachuko (Jun 6, 2022)

macardoso said:


> Oh cool Wife and I are total coffee snobs. We make a game out of our Sunday's traveling to all the "local" coffee shops (up to an hour away) after church on Sunday to see who can make the best cappuccino. My town is in the top 3 which is good news! My climbing gym can do a great one too if the one girl working there makes it.
> 
> I had a cheap $100 Target espresso machine that I was never impressed by. It seems to make a good strong cup of black coffee, but never got the proper extraction and crema of espresso that you would come to expect. It eventually died and I didn't replace it. Following that we had french press, aero press (still a favorite), and pour over.
> 
> ...


Recommendations? oh man...sure... what is your budget!? 

You need fresh coffee beans, a good grinder to go with it... none of those blades grinders.... you need a proper flat or conical burrs grinder.

Starter kit would be something like this:

1. Grinder - Eureka Mignon Silenzio - 579.00
2. Espresso Machine - Gaggia Classic Pro - 449.00

Or if the budget allows, without going crazy...

1. Grinder - Eureka Mignon Silenzio - 579.00
2. ECM Classika PID Espresso Machine - 1,599.00 or  Bezzera Unica Espresso Machine - 1,389.00 , get a machine with a PID, it  will have better temperature control...

Skip everything else... trust me... I went through all kinds of machines... waste of money... these will give you years and years of service...and you can repair anything on them.... Heck, you can leave them in your will to your children...

Again, that is, in my opinion, the lowest you can go for some quality machines... top end? well, the sky is the limit... and there is this camp of lever enthusiasts and one for pump driven machines (E61, Slayers, La Marzocco... etc... )

And again, this is for espresso... Pour over coffee, you do not need all this... just need fresh beans, a good grinder, something to boil water, and one of those Chemex glass jar... 

Home  Barista website is a cool place to learn and share...  https://www.home-barista.com/forums/index.php?sid=86a9683a43cda35e930c9ba489c9f170

This is my current setup...

Lever machines - Londinium R, La Pavoni Professional with a few mods, Flair original, Flair Pro
Pump machine - Rocket Cellini Evo V1
Grinders - KafaTek Monolith Conical, Eureka Mignon Facile
Roaster - Hottop KN-8828B-2 upgrade with UK-105


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## macardoso (Jun 6, 2022)

wachuko said:


> Recommendations? oh man...sure... what is your budget!?
> 
> You need a good grinder to go with it... none of those blades grinders.... you need a proper flat or conical burrs grinder.
> 
> ...



Yikes! You have more into espresso machines than I have into my whole machine shop! 

But seriously, thanks for the info. We might be a couple years out on pulling the trigger on this, but it is cool to know what is out there and how much to set aside to get started. 

Do you feel you can do as well as a really good coffee shop?


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## wachuko (Jun 6, 2022)

macardoso said:


> Do you feel you can do as well as a really good coffee shop?



Absolutely.... and, in many cases, better than most... Quality of the coffee beans is key... a good grinder is even more important than the machine...

But I am not kidding... do not waste money on trying to get there with cheaper alternatives... I tried Breville Barista Pro, etc.... so many different machines... a complete waste of money...  If you really like espresso... that second option (and I know we are talking around a 2K expense) is the one to go with.  You will be happy.

I know this because I went through this with my brother-in-law.... He fought me on this... I kept telling him, get an E61 machine, get an E61 machine... did he listen?  Nope.... He got a Delonghi Magnifica... died in a few years, then a Breville Oracle... kept giving him problems that he could not fix...  Last year he got, finally, a Bezzera Unica.... and tells me he wished he had listed to me...

These are professional machines that follow a standard... so many parts are interchangeable.... so if you ever have issues, plenty of parts available.  Maintenance is easy... and they are built like tanks...


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## macardoso (Jun 6, 2022)

wachuko said:


> But I am not kidding... do not waste money on trying to get there with cheaper alternatives...


I have no doubt. If I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it right. Maybe not "crazy" (this is all crazy right   ) but definitely good enough and durable to last.

We are still recovering from the house downpayment, renovations, furniture, etc. so this isn't the year for it, but maybe I'll do this for our 5 year anniversary or something like that.


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## addertooth (Jun 6, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Did your spell check hit the guardrails?!   I have no idea what you just said.   LOL


Yep, full names on coffee are long, and often include translations from other languages.  Most include, country, type, region, farm (altitude grown) and bean-preparation process (natural, honey, washed, etc).  The processing method of the beans influence the temperatures and time at temperature of the roasting (as well as altitude grown and type).  So, if you roast, all of this stuff is important.

But yes, it is a mouthful.


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## wachuko (Jun 6, 2022)

Here, have a laugh watching me pull a shot...

Lever machine






Rocket Cellini (E61 pump machine)


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## markba633csi (Jun 6, 2022)

Just saw this cool sign in the local cafe: "If you're not shaking, you need another cup"
LOL


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## davidpbest (Jun 6, 2022)

This is my setup.  I make a cappuccino three times per day using beans from *Batdorf & Bronson*.


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## wachuko (Jun 6, 2022)

@davidpbest are you close to Vivace Espresso?  Their Vivace Dolce is amazing... but I only drink espresso... I make the latte and cappuccino for my father-in-law and my wife... 

What beans are you getting from *Batdorf & Bronson*?  Would love to try some...

Right now I am buying from Caffe Lusso... their Gran Miscela Carmo


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## davidpbest (Jun 6, 2022)

I use the Bohemian from Batdorf.  It matches my personality.    When I started with this Rocket Mozzafiato type V, I tried all kinds of beans, but prefer now to stick with one bean type so I don’t have to wildly adjust the grind.  The Bohemian is pretty consistent batch to batch, and I get it via UPS the day after roasting.  I’m in Portland, they are in Olympia.


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## markba633csi (Jun 6, 2022)

Michael Pollan's new book "This is your mind on plants" has good section on coffee, caffeine and his self-deprivation experiment
-M


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## Winegrower (Jun 6, 2022)

I never touch the stuff.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jun 6, 2022)

Well, there was some good reading in there, glad I’m not alone. For anyone interested…like I said, it starts out slow and is very parallel to the rabbit hole of machining. 
Roasting my own beans? Never say never, but I hope to “never” add that to the mix. There are some good local roaster around my neighborhood, keep them making money and not have to invest in even MORE coffee apparatuses. Anyone willing to sell a pound or…? I’d love to see what home roasting is about.
It’s very interesting how you can pull different flavors from a bean by heat, pressure,.. something I didn’t have in my “cheap” $600 machine.I wish I could have at least one hobby that wasn’t so….scientific. Paint by numbers anyone?


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## addertooth (Jun 6, 2022)

You would be shocked at how little equipment you need to produce a well roasted coffee.  For most of the Sub-$1000 machines, it is about learning the idiosyncrocies of HOW the machine heats the bean.  Many of the lower cost units use hot air to roast the bean.  You will know how hot the air is, but not how hot the bean is.  This involves doing test-batches and observing the changes in the bean.  Each part of the roasting cycle makes visual changes in the bean which can be observed (or heard, like the first crack and the second crack).  

For the Big Boys, they have roasters which measure the temperature of the bean in real-time, so they don't have to guess how much of that heat is impacting the roast.  

It is important to know that unroasted (green) beans are about 1/2 the cost of fresh roasted beans through a re-seller.  This difference can be especially broad for higher end beans (Jamaca Blue Mountain, Kona Extra Fancy, Panama Geisha).  You also have better choices in grade of the beans (really good coffee starts with really good beans).  It is easier to find Kenya AA grade beans unroasted, than the real McCoy roasted.  Most of the bags of Roasted Kenyan beans are NOT AA grade.


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## wachuko (Jun 6, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> I never touch the stuff.


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## WobblyHand (Jun 6, 2022)

I never got into the complexity of espresso machines, but I do enjoy a decent espresso, or other good coffee drink.  I ended up with a super-automatic coffee machine that grinds the beans, and brews them.  For me it is a good compromise.  I buy my beans locally from a coffee shop that roasts their own.  They have been doing this now for over 10 years.  What's really nice is I can walk there in less than 10 minutes.  For the most part, I enjoy a good Ethiopian Yirgacheffe.  Usually have a Yirg coffee augmented with a shot of Yirg espresso as my morning joe.


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## mikey (Jun 6, 2022)

In my opinion, there are two things you need to make good espresso; one, you need a good burr grinder and two, you need fresh beans roasted to extract every bit of the good juju in that bean. The first thing can be purchased but the second thing needs to be done by someone who knows what they're doing and ideally, that person is you. 

Coffee needs to be consumed within 10-14 days of roasting; after this it loses flavor daily. If you know exactly when the coffee was roasted then that is a good thing but it isn't the only thing.

In order to fully develop the roast and pull all the desirable fats, sugars and proteins into the foreground without losing them to over-roasting, you have to bring the roast up to the Maillard reaction point and pull the roast precisely at that time. In order to do that, you must be able to monitor bean temperature in real time and have some control over either oven temp or, in the case of fluid bed roasters, fan speed. You cannot go by when the bean enters first or second crack or rely on bean color as an indicator of doneness; you need to know the temp of the bean mass and you have to be able to pull it fast at the right time and stop the roasting process fast.

What's more, every bean has it's own Maillard reaction temp and if you happen to roast a blended coffee then each bean within the blend has a different MR point; you have to decide which one will dictate the end of the roast. It can get complicated. 

With all that said, I have found that it is much easier to pull God Shots with freshly roasted coffee taken to its MR point. You can pull God Shots with commercial roasts but it's harder and everything has to be exactly right. 

You don't need to roast your own but you're giving up control over one of the two most important parts of fine coffee. Still, if you have a good grinder, access to recently roasted coffee and a decent espresso machine then you're way ahead of the game because everything else is just brown water!


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## ddickey (Jun 7, 2022)

Don't forget the rule of 12's.
Green beans last for 12 months before they become stale.
Roasted beans last 12 days before going stale.
Ground beans last 12 minutes before going stale.
Also water quality makes a huge difference in a good cup as well as proper temp. I believe it is supposed to be ~210 degrees but never boiling.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jun 9, 2022)

20+ years ago it was fun and simple, and for the most part, I enjoyed the espresso I made. Not to say I don't enjoy what it has turned into, but what @mikey explained (and others) that is more than enough to turn making espresso into a full-time job. It is far more complicated and scientific than it has ever been for me, but the payoff is there. Throwing anything else at it? I really don't see that. I hope to retire soon (very early) then maybe I will have time. Between the 2 roasters only a few miles from my house, I'll focus on all the stuff outside the roasting!


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## dirty tools (Jun 9, 2022)

Nice, just not my flavor 

BLACK and hot (strong enough to float a spoo)


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## mikey (Jun 10, 2022)

Roasting at home is actually much simpler than it sounds. About 20+ years back, not that much was known or certain about home roasting and much of what I know comes from careful experimentation and data gathering. My set up is simple and archaic compared to what is sold on the market but it allows me to constantly monitor oven and bean temp. Plus, I can control fan speed that makes reasonably fine profiling of each roast possible.

It is also much cheaper to roast your own. A good green bean costs somewhere in the $6.50 - 7.50 per pound. With shipping, cost per pound is somewhere near $8-9/#. Contrast that to what it costs for beans you buy from a roaster. Plus, you have to trust they roasted it to the right doneness and that it is as fresh as they say.

Home roasting is not for everyone but in my opinion, it is that final piece that makes coffee an experience and not just a beverage.


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## davidpbest (Jun 10, 2022)

I’m sure roasting your own beans is satisfying.  Kinda like mining yours own ore to smelt your own 316L stainless.  Joking of course, but I prefer to support the local businesses who roast beans.  On the other hand, making your own precision ball bearings, that’s another matter.


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## wachuko (Jun 10, 2022)

The smell of roasting coffee is amazing... the process of getting the perfect blend, on the other hand, is a royal PITA!!


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## jwmelvin (Jun 10, 2022)

Yea I’ve roasted my own beans for a while, maybe 15 years or so. First with a modified air popper, then a whirl pop, and now a Behmore roaster. I have parts and aspirations for another air roaster, made around a Pyrex bread-baking tube from the 70’s, a heat-gun element, and a vacuum blower. 

I do like craft coffee but it’s kind of fun to roast it at home. Fresh is good. My old air popper was run by an arduono controller that ram profiles I could set, but I’ve been pretty manual with the whirlypop and behmore.


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## ACHiPo (Jul 12, 2022)

Was deep into the espresso rabbit hole for many years.  My Quickmill Vetrano developed an issue ~3 years ago when our water softener and RO system dumped too much Ca, etc into the water.  I switched to drip, and haven’t been tempted to tear into the Vetrano yet.  Still get my beans roasted from a small roasting company in OR two days after roasting.


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## WobblyHand (Jul 12, 2022)

For giggles, I have two arabica coffee plants.  Both have been topped off to about 2 feet, as I have to bring them indoors for the winter.  Been nursing them along for about 5 years, waiting...  One of the plants has always flowered and generated a few cherries.  The other one has done nothing.  This year, the flowering plant (#1) had a lot of cherries.  Just finished picking all the cherries and shucking them.  Got 1 cup of raw beans.  #2 plant had a few flowers, which is amazing.  The flowers are small white and wispy.  Maybe I will get some beans out of it sometime.  Coffee plants in the north are not so easy to grow.  They are easily sun damaged.  Also it takes 9 months from the flower to harvesting a cherry.  You have to have a lot of patience.





To shuck the cherries, you just sort of squeeze them with your fingers.  The beans squirt out covered in some sort of gelatinous slimy substance.  It is really difficult to remove the slime off the beans.  It doesn't seem to wash off easily in water.  Some of the beans (5-10%) were triples.  Was kind of interesting to see.

After I dry them, got to come up with a way to roast them.  If I am lucky, maybe there will be enough to taste a cup of coffee that I grew.

Have to say, I am really glad to have a coffee shop that roasts in house down the street.  I'd never get my caffeine fix waiting for my beans!


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## WobblyHand (Jul 12, 2022)

@mmcmdl should appreciate the multiple use of this table.  Cleaned it up a bit, and decided to dry the coffee beans on the stainless arbor stand.  Have screens on the top and bottom of the beans so I can flip them over.  Screen is primarily to deter any birds.  I waited 9 months+ 5 years for this harvest, so don't feel like feeding the birds!


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## mmcmdl (Jul 12, 2022)

For gawds sake ! It's 94 degrees here and humid as heck . I could throw them out onto the driveway and roast them for ya in an hour !   I'm out moving all those blocks now , they are going this evening . The clean up continues .


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## WobblyHand (Jul 12, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> For gawds sake ! It's 94 degrees here and humid as heck . I could throw them out onto the driveway and roast them for ya in an hour !   I'm out moving all those blocks now , they are going this evening . The clean up continues .


Only 91 here, with a dew point of 67, which is a lot better than what you have, which is in the 70's.  Didn't take long for the beans to dry out.  Under an hour.  Weighed the green coffee beans and came out to 142 gm, just under 1/3 lb.  Not a lot, but should get a few cups out of it!  

Already fertilizing the daylights out of the two coffee plants for next years harvest!  Have high hopes of a 1/2 lb.


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## craniac (Jul 14, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> "After I dry them, got to come up with a way to roast them.  If I am lucky, maybe there will be enough to taste a cup of coffee that I grew."


Try a heat gun and a stainless steel dog bowl if you have those things already. A popcorn popper also works well for small amounts. I'd roast it just until you hear the second crack and it starts to smell wonderful.

Tim


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## addertooth (Jul 14, 2022)

If you are serious about getting them roasted, I have a Gene Cafe CBR 101 I roast with.   You can send them to me.  
Here is a picture of some of my roasts.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 14, 2022)

What are people thought on using dark roast for espresso making? I used it for years as I prefer it, however they say its bad for your grinder, not to mention the espresso machine. I try to get less oily beans, but I find oily and dark roast seem to go hand in hand.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Jul 14, 2022)

Another question, I have been using distilled water on all my machines for decades. I know you want a certain amount of mineral for taste, and they make supplements for that. This last machine I bought, and though it is the most expensive one I've owned, I am doing about 75% distilled and 25% tap. Our water here in the foothills of Colorado is very good. I have checked the hardness and it's fairly low, but I don't remember the value. Anyone have thoughts on this subject?


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