# PM Vises & Chucks - Precision vs Ultra Precision?



## Astronutski (Mar 5, 2018)

While my head comes to terms with the price of a quality mill, most likely the PM-30MV for future CNCable-ism, I'm now shifting most brainpower to the tooling realm.

Does anyone have experience with the Vises & Chucks Matt sells?
I've read good things about all in these forums, but I haven't yet read a thread discussing the differences between the two levels for each.  I'm needing help justifying, or not, going from "High Precision" to "Ultra Precision" on both the 4" vise and the 1/2" chuck.  

Currently, the 4" vises in question are $119 vs $249 and the 1/2" chucks $69 vs $119.  I'm a home gamer, garage dweller, DIYer, tinkerer, "let's see if I can make that" kind of guy.... .at this point this is a hobby not a source of income however I would LOVE to make a few chingles back doing odd jobs to appease the accountant.

My tendency ALWAYS, is to go for the best I can afford, or not afford, then I won't have to buy twice.  But in this case, for my hobby needs, are the "high precision" models good enough?  Obviously, there are a lot of things needed right out of the gate, need to spread the love, but like I said, I'm a buy it once kind of guy, but just don't know if the Ultra Precision versions are ridiculous accurate for what I would be needing.

And, quite ironically, the $119 4" High Precision vise states precision ground surfaces to .0006", while the $249 Homge Ultra states precision ground to .001".  I thought that was strange.  They don't specify over what distance though.

Thanks in advance guys.
Bill


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## T Bredehoft (Mar 5, 2018)

I bought a (possibly low precision) vice from Matt for $79. I did a bit of tweaking on it. took the swivel plate off the bottom and have been very happy with it. I usually don't try to work closer than .002, good lord that's precise enough for the jobs I do. The vice stays put on the mill table (unless I move it) then when I do put it back on, it's within .002 or so of being parallel the ways, due to the key blocks on the bottom. It's a matter of a couple of minutes tramming it. I can work to .001 if I feel the need, but don't often feel it.


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## mikey (Mar 5, 2018)

Just curious ... have you called and asked Matt? My impression from the threads I've read is that he is honest and will not steer you wrong just because he is the seller.

Keep in mind is that while you may be "just" a hobby guy, accuracy is accuracy. If you need an accurate vise or chuck, consider a Kurt/Orange/Glacern vise or an Albrecht/Rohm chuck. Budgets are one thing but if you want a good anything then find out which is the best anything and then find one at the best price you can get. Sometimes you have to wait for it but in the end, it is worth it. 

Some things you can "get by" with but consider that 90+% of your mill work will be held in a vise. Do you want to buy cheap and then have to surface grind or scrape the vise into square or do you want to buy a good vise and be good to go from the start? A good drill chuck will have minimal runout and will hold that for many years while holding your drills solidly. When it does wear, a good chuck can usually be rebuilt while a cheap drill ... probably not. 

What I am saying is that for the foundational tools - a vise, drill chuck, collet chuck - buy good equipment so you only have to buy it once. A Kurt vise has a lifetime guarantee. Albrecht will often replace a damaged chuck or repair it at reasonable cost. Factor these things into the equation because specs on paper are just that - specs on paper. I own a Kurt and several Wilton milling vises, currently have 5 Albrechts and 2 Rohm drill chucks, and an ETM ER-40 collet chuck. 

For the tools that matter, I spend the money on tools from companies that stand behind their products.


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## JDS77 (Mar 5, 2018)

Buy the best you can afford and you will always be happy i didn't get the most expensive one but i didn't go cheap with my 5 in. And i am very happy with it and i have used good ones and cheap ones and it sucks fighting the vise to get a part square because it won't hold it right


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## Ray C (Mar 5, 2018)

Everybody has a different definition of "hobby".   If you are not working with the constraints of tolerances and if filing and fitting is permissible once the pieces are made, then, you might be OK with lower end equipment.   If your hobby is to make perfectly square cubes out of steel then, either buy the best you can afford or, learn how to work effectively within the limits of your equipment.   

An experienced person knows the value of high quality equipment and they also know how to work-around equipment that is less than perfect. For people like this, good equipment will save them some time.  On the flip side, a total neophyte with access to the best equipment available might still take a very long time to produce inferior parts.

Also, I agree with what Mikey said...  Certain critical pieces of equipment need to be high quality.  In the case of this vise, the one you get depends on where you see yourself and where you want to be.

Ray


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## Astronutski (Mar 6, 2018)

Thanks guys, I do completely agree certain critical tools need to be as perfect as possible, I'm just struggling with "how perfect" is good enough.  I'm too OCD so I'd prefer the .000001" tolerance vise but realistically I'll probably be perfectly content with the .005" vise LOL.  I think I will go with the best one here, the Homge Ultra with .001" tolerance for $249.... I can't imagine the $119 vise being more accurate.

I do like the lifetime guarantee from Kurt, but at this point, without any plans of making money doing this I'll have to scale my anality back a bit.

At this point, I'm just trying to figure out how much the total damage will be.... I live 2 hours from pittsburgh so I should be able to see these items when I pick up the mill, when that day comes.  Just trying to plan for how many sacks of cash to take with me LOL.


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## chips&more (Mar 6, 2018)

IMHO the vise is the heart of the milling machine. And while on the subject of hearts. The chuck is the heart of the lathe. I personally get the best money can buy when choosing a vise and chuck. It makes life soooo much easier in my shop!!!! On a vise, I look at the Kurt brand. And Buck chucks, must have the Set-Tru feature…Good Luck, Dave.


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## mikey (Mar 6, 2018)

I would take a hard look at the Glacern GSV-440. It is a very nice vise, lifetime warranty with very nice specs, all for a bit more than the Homge. I have not seen a single negative comment about Glacern vises, or their tools for that matter. Your call, of course, but the vise determines much of the accuracy of your work and it pays to have a good one. You might think you're just a hobby guy who isn't making parts for NASA but let me tell you, when a part doesn't fit because it is 0.001" off all over you will regret buying a cheap vise.


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## Astronutski (Mar 6, 2018)

mikey said:


> I would take a hard look at the Glacern GSV-440. It is a very nice vise, lifetime warranty with very nice specs, all for a bit more than the Homge. I have not seen a single negative comment about Glacern vises, or their tools for that matter. Your call, of course, but the vise determines much of the accuracy of your work and it pays to have a good one. You might think you're just a hobby guy who isn't making parts for NASA but let me tell you, when a part doesn't fit because it is 0.001" off all over you will regret buying a cheap vise.


Ya true..... besides, how am I ever going to get to make parts for NASA if the parts don't fit???!!!   LOL

Ya, I've heard very good stuff about Glacern, I was just reluctant to go above $250-300..... Plus the swivel is another $120 on top of the $360, so... but I suppose this is a "you get what you pay for" kind of thing.

So in your opinion is the PM Ultra Precision drill chuck for $120 a good one?


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## chips&more (Mar 6, 2018)

Depending on your machines and the job in question? You typically find holding 0.001” on a lathe can be done. BUT, trying to hold 0.001” on a milling operation could be dream land…Dave.


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## Doubleeboy (Mar 6, 2018)

The great thing about the 100 dollar range 4" Chinese vises, is that you are only out that much if it is junk.  I have used several, have two, used within their limits they are fine, keep em clean, get a good parallels, whop it with the dead blow when seating work, you are good to go.  I have had a Kurt for years and like it, but if I were hurting for $ I would get the 4" chuck from China and tune it up and make parts.  Kurt sells cosmetically challenged vises at great prices on their website, that might be an option also.


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## mikey (Mar 6, 2018)

Personally, I would not buy the swivel base. It eats up room in Z and you will not use it often. 

For $120.00, I would rather have a lightly used Albrecht chuck.


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## navav2002 (Mar 6, 2018)

You also have to consider tolerance stacking..So your vise is .001, then your chuck is .001, your mill is trammed to .001 and so on...You see how things add up quickly...

I bought the PM Ultra Precision chuck and like it very much. I really like the Glacern vise and hope to own one someday myself. I currently have a Magnum vise. I would suggest not skimping on a vise.

I vote for getting the highest quality you can afford. Buy good stuff then your done (the pain will subside..lol). Yes there are some things I can't afford to go "top shelf" so I go with the best I can afford.

Every time I try and go the cheep way out it costs me double, once paying for the cheep tool plus frustration, then again to replace it with a good one...

Good luck with your decisions!!


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## navav2002 (Mar 6, 2018)

mikey said:


> Personally, I would not buy the swivel base. It eats up room in Z and you will not use it often.



Yeah, save on the swivel base and look at a rotary table if the need arises...Much more useful tool than a swivel base imho..


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## Astronutski (Mar 6, 2018)

Thank you everyone, this is all incredibly helpful!     Great plan on the rotary table, that guy was already on my long term list ;-)  Thanks for saving me the $120!


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