# T&C grinder research ???-450? Mine is a Kao Ming



## TheArsonSmith (Oct 19, 2018)

Been doing some research trying to find manuals and what not for my Kao Ming 450A Tool and cutter grinder. Turns out to be a fairly common base and has been sold under many different makers including Kao Ming, Enco, Jet, Mazak, standard and many others. Currently it seems a company in Vietnam is still making them and accessories for them.

Some of the model numbers I've found that show all visually identical machines with I'm sure slight variations:

450
450a
CT-457
FCT-457
KGU-450a
JCG-450a

The only manual I've been able to find is a reprint sold on ebay and amazon search for ckm-kgu-450a. I haven't received it yet but will report back more when I have.

The first attached picture is of mine, the rest are of similar ones from other vendors. If anyone has any more info on this T&C grinder I'd like to make sure it was all put together for anyone that may find one in the future.

Now on to wiring up my rotary phase converter to see if I can make some sparks!!

Also found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxx3LqCqhIE


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Oct 22, 2018)

Some video of me getting it powered up and making first sparks with it:


----------



## Barncat (Oct 23, 2018)

Watched your video, and it appears yours is in better condition than my enco 450. I can't get my table to move left or right with that big rod, the hand wheel won't move at all. Any idea if there is any sort of a lock on the table?


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Oct 23, 2018)

It's a rack and pinion system, the dial/rod/lever just goes into a small gear under the table then there is a rack on the bottom of the table that it meshes with.  

You can check if the gibs are too tight (should be a row of allen heads along either the front or back) They should be just snug enough to keep the table from moving front to back, but allow it to slide left to right.   It could also be rusted shut, in that case get some WD40 or other rust removing solvent that can penetrate into it and brake it lose.  Depending on how the coolant was taken care of this could very likely be the case.

When I get home I'll remove the table and snap a picture of what is underneath so you can see what I'm talking about.


----------



## Barncat (Oct 23, 2018)

I loosened all the gibs. I think it is probably rust. It would be great to see a picture of the table off.


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Oct 24, 2018)

Best auto selected title shot ever!!


----------



## Barncat (Oct 24, 2018)

Thanks for that. It looks pretty simple, mine probably is rusted. The big rod that screws into the collar around the handwheel will move the collar, but not the handwheel on mine, the handwheel is stuck firm. I need to look at it again and see if there is some sort of roll pin that should be connecting them that has sheared. I sprayed a lot of pb blaster on it last week and have been letting it soak.


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Oct 29, 2018)

I made a new guard for the side that was missing one:







I also got the manual in.  It's a pretty poor copy and every other page is even upside down.  I may try to re-produce it to see if I can get slightly better results.  Most of the pictures look like copies of copies of copies.


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Oct 30, 2018)

Question about this grinder and anyone with any experience, would it be worth while to get a magnetic chuck to do basic surface grinding?  what is the technical difference between a T&C Grinder and a surface grinder?


----------



## Barncat (Oct 30, 2018)

TheArsonSmith said:


> I made a new guard for the side that was missing one:
> 
> 
> I also got the manual in.  It's a pretty poor copy and every other page is even upside down.  I may try to re-produce it to see if I can get slightly better results.  Most of the pictures look like copies of copies of copies.


Exactly how the manual I got looked.


----------



## Barncat (Oct 31, 2018)

TheArsonSmith said:


> Question about this grinder and anyone with any experience, would it be worth while to get a magnetic chuck to do basic surface grinding?  what is the technical difference between a T&C Grinder and a surface grinder?


I have also wondered about using a mag chuck on it. Might want to start a new thread with that question, get more responses than in the middle of this thread.


----------



## Cadillac (Oct 31, 2018)

Yes you can surface grind on the t&c. The obvious thing is size of table which dictates sizes that can be ground. A small mag chuck and precision chuck would be good tools to have to expand the capabilities of the grinder. I wouldn’t expect surface grinder precision though.


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Oct 31, 2018)

There is a cheap import ($99) 6x6" mag chuck on ebay I may pick up in before the end of the year to give it a try, unless a better deal shows up on a name brand local.


----------



## Cadillac (Oct 31, 2018)

I don’t know if theirs auction in your neck of the woods but I have great luck and that type of stuff goes cheap and usually grade A stuff.


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Oct 31, 2018)

Rare, in Phoenix we were a bit too hot during the heyday of the industrial revolution prior to the widespread use of Air Conditioning, so it never really got into our culture.  ASU does seem to have a monthly auction with great stuff in it I only just started keeping an eye on.  Otherwise I mostly just get lucky from retirees that moved to the area and selling off their tool boxes.


----------



## Barncat (Feb 20, 2019)

TheArsonSmith said:


> There is a cheap import ($99) 6x6" mag chuck on ebay I may pick up in before the end of the year to give it a try, unless a better deal shows up on a name brand local.


Well, did you try it as a surface grinder yet?


----------



## Diecutter (Feb 20, 2019)

I have been using my LeBlonde T&C as a surface grinder for 20 years  and it is pretty accurate. Only modification I did was to make an arbor extension so the wheel was far enough out that it hits every part of the 6x12 magnetic chuck.


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Feb 22, 2019)

I haven't tried it yet.  I was stuck on making a 2x72 belt grinder and haven't gotten back to this part yet.


----------



## shell70634 (Apr 29, 2019)

I just got a Jet JCG 450-1 that looks just like yours but with more rust.  I've got it cleaned, lubed, and running but the bed still has some pitting.  It came with a 6 x 12 ENCO magnetic chuck that's also rusted.  I plan on grinding the chuck surface when I figure out the proper way to use the grinder.   Can you tell me where you found the manual?  Does it show the different accessories available?  I've got lots of parts and pieces but not sure if the are for the grinder.  Do you know the name of the company making accessories?  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx,
Shelly


----------



## TheArsonSmith (Apr 29, 2019)

EvapoRust is your friend.  Get the gel, or saturate paper-towels in it and lay on surfaces works pretty well.  found the manual on ebay.  pretty sure any grinder accessories should work fine and you can even invent your own as needed.  I found a tool and cutter grinding book on amazon that while not great it's pretty good for a very entry level grinding instruction.

I never got a mag chuck for mine, but I did try surface grinding a small anvil shaped object I have that I use mostly for leather work.  It made for an OK finish but I think the rack-and-pinion slide makes for an odd surface finish.


----------



## shell70634 (Apr 29, 2019)

I ordered the manual.  Better than nothing I guess.  I mounted the wheel dressing fixture and cleaned up the wheel.  Surfaced a small piece on a magnetic chuck and it worked ok.  I've got to come up with a smoother way to move the table.  The small handwheel isn't smooth, at least not in my hands.  I've got an old power unit from a mill.  Maybe I can adapt that to it.
Still going thru all the parts and pieces that came with the grinder and the mill.  Maybe I'll find more goodies.

EDIT:  got 3 gal Evaporust


----------



## Barncat (Apr 29, 2019)

I agree the small handwheel isn't very smooth, but with the big rod sticking out of it, it is a little easier to turn it in a consistent manner. Let's see some pictures of it and these goodies you got with it.


----------



## shell70634 (Apr 29, 2019)

I didn't get a rod.  
Here's my Jet Model 450-1 and stuff.  I don't know if the 2 items in the last picture belong with the grinder.  The shaft is threaded on each end with removable collets and the gray thing may be a fixture for grinding lathe tools.


----------



## shell70634 (Apr 29, 2019)

Can't seem to orient photos properly


----------



## Cadillac (Apr 30, 2019)

Man looks like you scored good with the accessories. 
Okay looks like you got some expensive diamond wheels. Very nice score. 
 First picture is like my Yuasa endmill grinding attachment. Allows you to do the flutes of a endmill. I do not see the tube that the endmills get mounted into or collets. 
 Second picture is a rotary table a dividing head with chuck can’t see if motorized, and a tailstock for either the rotary or the dividing head. The attachment with the red tag is a radius diamond dresser. Used to put a radius on grinding wheels. 
 Third picture looks like a arbor for a horizontal mill. Grey attachment is for grinding lathe tool bits. Round discs with holes are the plates for the dividing head and some 123 blocks. A lot of good accessories there.


----------



## Packard V8 (Dec 11, 2019)

Well, seems I didn't dig down deep enough before I posted my own request on this forum.  I really need an Operator's Manual.  A request to Kao Ming got a nice response that they hadn't sold that machine in twenty years.

Any current info on who has recently supplied a manual for the Kao Ming/Jet/Enco/_et al_ machine?  I e-mailed an ask to Jet and Enco, Mazak and Standard but no response as of yet.

jack vines


----------



## bl00 (Dec 12, 2019)

Here's a load of grinder manuals.  Maybe one will work for you.  https://onedrive.live.com/?id=547FE296ECFD561F!115&cid=547FE296ECFD561F


----------



## shell70634 (Dec 12, 2019)

I've got a manual but it's not very detailed.  Send me an email address and I'll copy it to a pdf file and email it to you.

Shelly


----------



## MERLIncMan (May 16, 2021)

shell70634 said:


> I've got a manual but it's not very detailed.  Send me an email address and I'll copy it to a pdf file and email it to you.
> 
> Shelly


Not to resurrect an old thread, but I just got the Jet-450 model of this same machine (crazy roadtrip down to Phoenix from Colorad, 1650 miles round-trip, 36 hrs, slept for about 3 hrs at the Grand Canyon...)

She's sitting out in the lab right now as I debate on cleaning and assembling, or relaxing after that crazy trip...

Have you got that manual? I haven't got any documentation for her, so it would be wonderful if you had it.


----------



## MERLIncMan (May 16, 2021)

TheArsonSmith said:


> Rare, in Phoenix we were a bit too hot during the heyday of the industrial revolution prior to the widespread use of Air Conditioning, so it never really got into our culture.  ASU does seem to have a monthly auction with great stuff in it I only just started keeping an eye on.  Otherwise I mostly just get lucky from retirees that moved to the area and selling off their tool boxes.


Crazy that you're in Phoenix - I just got back from there this morning where I went to get the exact same grinder!

You couldn't send me a PDF of that manual could you?


----------



## Packard V8 (May 17, 2021)

X2 I'm still searching for the Jet version of the Operators Manual.

jack vines


----------



## MERLIncMan (May 17, 2021)

Packard V8 said:


> X2 I'm still searching for the Jet version of the Operators Manual.
> 
> jack vines


Yeah, the only documentation that I've found for the Jet is a 1979 catalog showing the gizmo - at 220v version, rather than the 115VAC that I've got. No other docs though


----------



## kiwi_007 (Feb 12, 2022)

Did anyone find a good quality manual for this machine?
I found a pdf manual but it’s pretty basic and not very good quality.

If anyone wants a copy of it let me know.


----------



## MERLIncMan (Feb 12, 2022)

I've got some PDFs of some scans (some with inverted pages) - it may be the same one that you've got. I have considered re-printing it when I have the time to repair the inverted pages.

They aren't bad scans, and it does show overall uses for different stuff (recently looked up end-mill sharpening) - but it doesn't really go into the meat of the machine itself.


----------



## Packard V8 (Feb 12, 2022)

I’d buy a copy


----------



## kiwi_007 (Feb 12, 2022)

Packard V8 said:


> I’d buy a copy


Pm me and I will send you a copy


----------



## kiwi_007 (Feb 12, 2022)

MERLIncMan said:


> I've got some PDFs of some scans (some with inverted pages) - it may be the same one that you've got. I have considered re-printing it when I have the time to repair the inverted pages.
> 
> They aren't bad scans, and it does show overall uses for different stuff (recently looked up end-mill sharpening) - but it doesn't really go into the meat of the machine itself.


Ive got a friend that lives in Pueblo and visited there a few years ago.
please send me a pm and I’ll email you what I’ve got.


----------



## Barncat (Feb 12, 2022)

I’d be interested in a copy. Maybe it is better than the copy of a copy of a copy, etc than I already have. If not and mine ends up being better quality, I can post mine.


----------



## kiwi_007 (Feb 12, 2022)

Barncat said:


> I’d be interested in a copy. Maybe it is better than the copy of a copy of a copy, etc than I already have. If not and mine ends up being better quality, I can post mine.


Please pm me your email and I'll send what I've got.


----------



## eriksalo (Nov 28, 2022)

This is an old thread but I found it looking for a manual for my JET 450A grinder.  I finally found a manual and am posting it here.  I think there are many versions of this same machine around under a number of different brands.


----------



## eriksalo (Nov 28, 2022)

Here's the manual for this machine


----------

