# Anyone here made a D1-4 Spindle nose?



## Joe in Oz (Apr 19, 2018)

My lathe has a flat flange with a shallow taper locating recess - and chucks or plates are held with 3 or 4 bolts into threaded holes in that flange.
Using front-mount or through-hole chucks, that is a relatively easy to use arrangement. However, I have a couple of chucks with D1-4 mounts and no way of drilling through holes that could line up with the flange holes (without going through the scroll  ).
So I would like to go to D1-4 mounting for all my chucks. Making backing plates to suit seems relatively easy to me, however making a D1-4 holder or nose is daunting....
I've never seen any D1 type noses/holders for sale and can't find a suitable second-hand (=affordable) D1-4 spindle I could adapt either.
So I'm considering making either a complete spindle or an adapter from scratch....
Any advice or experience here?


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## gasengin (Apr 19, 2018)

Maybe I don't understand the question, but D1-4 mounting plates are available on ebay.  Think they are very common.  If not in Oz, I'm sure direct ship from China would be available.


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## TomS (Apr 19, 2018)

He's asking if anyone has made an adapter that mates a non-cam lock style spindle to a D1-4 chuck mount.  This should be possible if care is taken to make the adapter as short as possible.  Do a D1-4 spindle dimensions search on the internet and you will get literally dozens of hits.  This will be an interesting project.  Keep us posted.


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## Mitch Alsup (Apr 19, 2018)

gasengin said:


> Maybe I don't understand the question, but D1-4 mounting plates are available on ebay.  Think they are very common.  If not in Oz, I'm sure direct ship from China would be available.



DI-4 mounting plates are easily found, you attach a chuck to the back plate and then attach the assembly to the spindle nose.
The contraption a DI-4 back plate mounts ONTO is not easily found. It is, in effect, an isolated spindle nose.

I think the person in question is looking for the thing that accepts a DI-4 assembly, not the DI-4 back place.
It is the one with 3 holes and 3 spring loaded cam lock locks,
not the one with 3 cam lock studs which.


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## Tozguy (Apr 19, 2018)

I definitely think you can make an adapter to convert your spindle nose to accept D1-4. It will add around 1 1/2 inches to the spindle nose.
The shallow internal taper to fit your OEM spindle and the external D1-4 taper on the adapter would not be difficult to cut. I would not attempt to make the cams (although they are not hardened) but everything thing else you can make. 
If you change chucks often you will certainly appreciate the D1-4 concept.


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## benmychree (Apr 19, 2018)

Tozguy said:


> I definitely think you can make an adapter to convert your spindle nose to accept D1-4. It will add around 1 1/2 inches to the spindle nose.
> The shallow internal taper to fit your OEM spindle and the external D1-4 taper on the adapter would not be difficult to cut. I would not attempt to make the cams (although they are not hardened) but everything thing else you can make.
> If you change chucks often you will certainly appreciate the D1-4 concept.


The cams are hardened, otherwise they would not last forever as I have observed them to do; perhaps those from China are lacking hardness ---
You should be able to buy the cams as a replacement part.   The spindle nose that you describe on your lathe is common on turret lathes, and a friend has a big Monarch lathe that has that method of chuck mounting.


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## Tozguy (Apr 19, 2018)

This is a cam from my lathe, it is definitely not as hard as the stud that chewed it up. Considering the need to hold on the stud and not loosen while in use it makes sense to me that it would not be 'hard' and therefor slippery.
When a D1-4 system is properly adjusted and installed there is no need for hardened parts. If things go sour I would rather replace a cam or stud than a chewed up spindle.


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## benmychree (Apr 19, 2018)

Tozguy said:


> This is a cam from my lathe, it is definitely not as hard as the stud that chewed it up. Considering the need to hold on the stud and not loosen while in use it makes sense to me that it would not be 'hard' and therefor slippery.
> When a D1-4 system is properly adjusted and installed there is no need for hardened parts. If things go sour I would rather replace a cam or stud than a chewed up spindle.


I had a 14" Monarch CK that had a D type spindle nose, it was built in 1943, the cams looked nothing like the chewed up example that you posted relative hardness is a subjective thing; how hard is hard and how soft is soft?  Without a hardness tester of some kind, it's only a guess; I'd offer that USA made cams are heat treated, to what degree, I have no idea, but definitely not soft.  I do not have any parts to test for hardness.
The parts that you show in the pictures are definitely soft, as shown by the wear that is evident; they should not show wear like that; I assume that this is an "offshore" machine?


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## Tozguy (Apr 19, 2018)

benmy, I was going to say the same thing, we can only go so far talking about hardness without having some numbers. I have been referring to relative hardness, D1-4 spindle, cam and stud 
My buggered cam is not from wear. A few years ago I had an H of a time removing a 6'' scroll chuck that came installed on a new lathe, as if the factory forced the cam before the stud was far enough into the spindle. The vendor provided a new cam on warranty and it still  looks like new.
Had the cam been harder would it have deformed the stud? If the stud got deformed how difficult would it be to pull it from the spindle? If the spindle got deformed how would I fix it? I got to realize that maybe the cam is the weak link by design because it is so easy to remove and replace.

I am not keen on blindly bashing the country of origin when something like that happens. It was my initiation to D1-4 stuff and I pondered the situation for some time before realizing the wisdom behind the 'soft' cam. Granted the factory should have put the chuck on properly. But the error is something that I could have done too being a greenhorn. So given the choice between a 'hard' or 'soft' cam, I would opt for the relatively soft one and the protection that it provides.   

BTW, the socket of the cam got buggered from using a poorly fitting key. THAT was MY fault but it is another illustration of how soft the cam is.


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## benmychree (Apr 19, 2018)

Tozguy said:


> benmy, I was going to say the same thing, we can only go so far talking about hardness without having some numbers. I have been referring to relative hardness, D1-4 spindle, cam and stud
> My buggered cam is not from wear. A few years ago I had an H of a time removing a 6'' scroll chuck that came installed on a new lathe, as if the factory forced the cam before the stud was far enough into the spindle. The vendor provided a new cam on warranty and it still  looks like new.
> Had the cam been harder would it have deformed the stud? If the stud got deformed how difficult would it be to pull it from the spindle? If the spindle got deformed how would I fix it? I got to realize that maybe the cam is the weak link by design because it is so easy to remove and replace.
> 
> ...


I'd agree that the problem was likely caused by the stud on the chuck being screwed into the chuck too far.  I wish I had some cans and studs to check for hardness, I have a Rockwell hardness tester and also ma Sclerescope hardness tester.
Personally, I prefer the L type spindle nose, it is much easier to keep clean and has only the one nut to tighten up, but both of my lathes have screwed on chucks, which is OK, except when you'd like to run in reverse ---


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## Joe in Oz (Apr 26, 2018)

Thank you all for your input and encouragement!
I will consider a few more details and then decide if I attempt to make a complete new spindle or an adapter to take D1-4 chucks and backing plates.
Any recommendations for material to use? If I make a whole new spindle, I guess I should use 40xx series steel, for just an adapter maybe 10xx steel would suffice?

Cheers, Joe


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## Ray C (Apr 26, 2018)

Yes, I've made D1-type adapter plates from scratch.

Cast iron is the ideal material for these kinds of fixtures because it has amazing ability to absorb vibration.  Absolutely, 10xx steel will work just fine for all practical purposes.

Good luck and let us know if you ideas on how to approach this.

Ray


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## benmychree (Apr 26, 2018)

My first choice would be 4140 HT for an adaptor, fairly hard and tough, but not too hard to machine relatively easily. Cast iron would be my last choice, at least in the softer grades, like class 30 or even class 40; ductile iron would be OK, perhaps in the area of 80,000 lb. tensile strength.


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## Ray C (Apr 26, 2018)

Ok, I get it now...  I did not read your initial post properly.   You basically want to make a spindle nose.  Yep, benmycherry is right, you need something like a medium hardness material as suggested.

Ray


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## benmychree (Apr 26, 2018)

Ray C said:


> Ok, I get it now...  I did not read your initial post properly.   You basically want to make a spindle nose.  Yep, benmycherry is right, you need something like a medium hardness material as suggested.
> 
> Ray


Don't feel bad, I have that problem all too often (not reading things carefully)  It only gets worse as time passes -----


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## HMF (Apr 26, 2018)

I know who could help you with this if he has time. Bob (aametalmaster). 
He's a member, but doesn't post much- has a lot on his plate.
Contact him and let him know what you need.


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## markba633csi (Apr 26, 2018)

One of our members made a D1-3 spindle for his lathe-from scratch
it's in the Clausing section under "Clausing 111/4800 spindle upgrade"
an advanced level project for sure
Mark


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## HMF (Apr 26, 2018)

I think this is it:

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/clausing-111-4800-spindle-upgrade.56108/


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## ddickey (Apr 26, 2018)

I made a D1-5 for my ER chuck. 
Was not that difficult.


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## COMachinist (Apr 28, 2018)

I’m working on a thread on D1-4 for my clausing. The problem with making a complete replacement spindle is the bore. I would need to farm that out. So what I desided to do is thread it to fit my  1 1/2”-8 thread then tig it on permently. Then skim true it to the lathe for minimum runout. 
First you need to get copy of the ISO 702-2 spec for details of the D1 spindle dimensions. My lathe is a 12x36 so I figured the D1-4 was a better fit. I’m making my adapter from 1045 cheaper than a big chunk of 4140 so if I screw the pooch on this it won’t cost an arm and a leg.
CH


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## Joe in Oz (Apr 30, 2018)

Please document your progress here or in a new thread for people like me who are faced with this question in the future.

Cheers, Joe


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## Joe in Oz (Apr 30, 2018)

ddickey said:


> I made a D1-5 for my ER chuck.
> Was not that difficult.


I think you missed the point of the original question....
Sorry, but thanks for your input.

Cheers, Joe


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## Tozguy (Apr 30, 2018)

COMachinist said:


> I’m working on a thread on D1-4 for my clausing. The problem with making a complete replacement spindle is the bore. I would need to farm that out. So what I desided to do is thread it to fit my  1 1/2”-8 thread then tig it on permently. Then skim true it to the lathe for minimum runout.
> First you need to get copy of the ISO 702-2 spec for details of the D1 spindle dimensions. My lathe is a 12x36 so I figured the D1-4 was a better fit. I’m making my adapter from 1045 cheaper than a big chunk of 4140 so if I screw the pooch on this it won’t cost an arm and a leg.
> CH


It looks like the D1-4 spindle on my new lathe was made that way ie. D1-4 nose welded to the spindle.
It makes little sense for a factory to cut so much steel to make a single piece D1-4 spindle. It is perfectly feasible for a factory to churn out D1-4 noses and lathe spindles separately then weld them together prior to finish turning.

yes, please allow us to follow your project along with you.
Is there any merit to using fasteners somehow instead of TIG welding if only to have the option of removing the D1-4 nose someday for some reason?


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## BenW (Apr 30, 2018)

I also have a D1-4 spindle and I had the same thought when I took it out for cleaning; no way they turned that from a solid chunk. It ought to be 2 welded pieces. 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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