# Advice needed on buying a new or used Tormach CNC Mill



## simspace (Aug 8, 2022)

I am dipping my toes in the waters of machining as a part-time gig. My focus for now will be small jobs from Xometry.  I know people have strong opinions about Xometry, but it's the decision I've made that's best for me and my current goals.

If you were starting a small, one-person, side-gig CNC machining business in your garage, *what machine would you choose*? Please keep in mind that my budget is somewhere in the $16k range.

*My options are *:
- A new PCNC 440 with some extras.
- A new 770M with very limited extras.
- A used PCNC 1100 with lots of extras, for a great price that is pushing my budget a little, but well below $20k. Below is a list of what comes with the used PCNC 1100.

*Here's a little about me*. I'm a tech nerd. I'm in my 36th year as software engineer. I love Fusion 360. I'm finishing off a Fusion 360 deep-dive course. In October, I head to Saunders Machine Works (DIY CNC) for his Hands On CNC Machining Training Class. I already own and work on a manual lathe and milling machine.

Thanks!
Chris


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## JimDawson (Aug 8, 2022)

Unless you really need a small machine to fit in a small space, I would look at a full sized Bridgeport or clone.  Really not much different footprint than the Tormach PCNC 1100, but twice the machine.

If I were in your area I would already have this machine sitting in my shop. 
https://grandrapids.craigslist.org/tls/d/grand-rapids-cnc-mill-retrofit-ready/7511309199.html    Can be operated manually as well as a CNC.  There are quite a number of these types of machines on eBay.  I have one of these and if I could only have one mill in my shop this type of machine would be my first choice.

It's really not much of a job to do a controls retrofit on a CNC mill.  And would come in well under your budget with all new servo motors and controls.  And as a tech nerd it should be no problem for you.  Given that you are a software engineer, you could always just write your own CNC operating software.  Not very difficult, that's what I did.


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## simspace (Aug 8, 2022)

@JimDawson, I have a BP clone and I've seriously considered that option, but in the end it's not the path I want to go down. But thank you for the suggestion!


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## JimDawson (Aug 8, 2022)

simspace said:


> @JimDawson, I have a BP clone and I've seriously considered that option, but in the end it's not the path I want to go down. But thank you for the suggestion!



In that case, the PCNC 1100 would be my first choice.  Seems like it would be a turnkey solution and you can hit the ground running.


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## simspace (Aug 8, 2022)

That's what I've been thinking too. But I wanted to hear from others like you who have way more experience than I do, just to make sure my thinking's not stinking!


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## Radials (Aug 9, 2022)

I've been running a small home machine shop side business for several years now. In the beginning all the work I did was on strictly my manual machines. Last year with jobs increasing I finally decided to buy a Tormach to take on more complex work. I work professionally as a cnc mill machinist and was using Fusion 360 to program daily, so a learning curve on the machine and software wasn't a concern. After looking over the options I went with the 770M as budget was a driving factor. I started with the base machine and added the essentials needed to get going. I opted to weld together my own stand as I have that capability and the Tormach option is quite expensive. For coolant I went with a Cool Mist system that I already had. An MQL system has its advantages for me over floor coolant since my business isn't consistent. Floor coolant systems more require maintenance that I didn't want to always be dealing with. But, they do more effectively clear chips and give nicer surface finishes. 

Heres what I would only suggest looking at your situation through my eyes. I would ditch the ATC as it seems to be an expensive accessory with mixed reviews. I did install the power draw bar and that's money well spent. The PDB foot switch could be a nice addition but the push button has worked fine for me. 40 tool holders is a lot to start with. I use side lock tool holders as much as I can for tools that are always set up. The ER holders (I only use ER20 as its a good compromise between 16 and 32) are for revolving job specific tooling. I think I've got maybe 20 tool holders in total. Its easier to buy more tool holders down the road when you see you need them, otherwise its just money sitting there unused.

The jog shuttle, keyboard, mouse, monitor... etc I skipped on from Tormach and sourced from eBay for much less. In fact I don't have a shuttle and just make due with the keyboard shortcuts. Tool tightening fixture I bought, but never use. I just use the ER collet wrenches and it works fine for me. All the Tormach height gauges aren't necessary IMO. I touch all tools off on a known datum plane in the machine and it works fine. One day I might buy the probe but an edge finder and dial work too and the cost can't be beat. 

My 770M has two tegara 4" vises on it. That's as much as the machine can hold and I wouldn't put less. The 440 IMO isn't a contender as its too small. Basing this on you want to bring in "job shop" type work from Xometry so you would be pretty limited from the get-go. The 770 has worked out well for me power and size wise, but I wish I would have gotten an 1100M. Buy the biggest you can because you never know what job someone will want to to run on it, and in the case of these small machine a few extra inches of travel will make a difference. I don't advertise/ promote as of yet because I can't take on more work right now, but my Tormach was paid off in 13 months.


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## RJSakowski (Aug 9, 2022)

I have the PCNC 770 S3.  I would go for the 1100 but check it for wear.    Also, there was a significant improvement between the S2 and the S3.  Kits were available from Tormach to convert to the S3.


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## simspace (Sep 8, 2022)

I thought I'd post a quick update. Since I submitted my first post *things got real*!

After a lot of discussions on various forums and with my family, I decided that I needed to increase my budget.

As a result I will be taking delivery of this Sharp SV-2412 SX sometime next week. It was significantly less than a new Tormach 1100MX which is what I was leaning towards.

It's a beast. 15HP 10k rpm spindle, 24 pocket ATC, Fanuc Oi-MD Controller, Chip Conveyor, Rigid Tapping, Remote Jog Handle, Coolant System and it has less that 8,000 hours on the spindle. It was purchased new by an Aerospace company in Atlanta and used on aluminum and plastics only. I had it inspected and was able to get all the maintenance records from the day of install through May of 2022.

I'll also be getting a new 30 HP RPC, air compressor, and a refrigerated dryer for the compressor.

Well, there goes half of my garage! ‍ I'll post more when the machine arrives. Thanks for your input, it helped!!!


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## JimDawson (Sep 8, 2022)

Well that is a bit of a step up from a Tormach  

Looking forward to seeing it.


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## wrat (Sep 9, 2022)

As the kids say in their discussions:
Well, that escalated quickly.


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## ArmyDoc (Sep 14, 2022)

How much space do you have?  There was a 2008 Haas tm1 for 10K on Ebay recently.  Older VF2s are common in the 14-16k range.   My understanding is that Tormach makes pretty decent machines for their price, but when compared to a Haas they are similar to the difference between a hobby mill and a bridgeport.

EDIT:  Well, that'll teach me not to reply before reading to the end of the thread...  Congratulations!  Please send us updates on your experience with the new machine.


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