# Gee, gee / Lucky me?



## mx5mke (Nov 14, 2012)

First, there was the fifty-dollar-find in a barn of a tired 9x48 southbend with worn ways, lead screw, change gear train, broken cover (and bracket) and broken handle on the cross slide. 

Then there was the ongoing search for parts to do some fixin' on "The First".

Lo! Looky, lookie! "Thar be Lathes Here!"

And not just any lathes!

One is a STUNNING, absolutely GORGEOUS 1916 Seneca Falls "Star"  treasured by its first owner, and tended by a life-long machinist. As best I can tell, from what little I know, Seneca Falls equipment were then and still are essentially "The Leicas of Lathes". Simply the finest. In 35mm photography, and now in small-format digital photography none of the competitors even pretend to compare themselves to Leica, knowing any comparison is laughable.

For example, see this, and this and this, and this. The last is especially amusing to "Those in the Know". It reveals that a **1964* Leica lens provides better optical performance than the very latest designs from Nikon and Canon. And that 1964 Leica lens fits *every* Leica rangefinder made since 1954. The author wryly says, "I should have used a modern lens on the Leica. Using a 45-year-old sample puts the Leica at quite a disadvantage, but tough, it still comes out on top."

With Seneca Falls, "Same, Same, Only Different."

The second is a nearly-as-beautiful specimen of a South Bend 9x36 in great condition, with everything "Present and Accounted For, Sir!", right down to the original cast iron stand with matching chip tray in original paint. And, while we're at it, don't forget "all the tools and accessories" this life-long machinist can't use on his Seneca Falls. It's anybody's guess exactly what "everything" includes, since he'll not have time to gather all the pieces-and-parts from his garage shop and separate the "Seneca" from the "South Bend". 

Ohh, ohh, ohh! Can't wait to find out!

Then, for extra giggles and lessons, the same machinist doesn't use an and OLD (circa 1910s) horizontal mill with a cubic-boatload of mills, and adapters, and accessories and "stuff", and he needs the space in his garage. It takes a full size pallet, and he can't use it, lacking even 220v in his garage, much less 208v 3 phase. 

So, for one "Low Low Price!", I'm the soon-to-be-proud-new-owner of a nice SB 22-Y 9x36 "with all the trimmings" (Thxgiving is coming up.... Need a thread on how to best spend a thanksgiving day in the machine shop without missing the goodies or the ball games...)

Naturally, there's some work to do to get these new articles safely esconsed in their new home. The lathe is pretty easy to move, once disassembled into headstock, ways, carriage, tailstock, jackshaft/countershaft (anyone wanna clear up the terminology for me?), chip tray and support, along with two meaty, cast iron legs. 

I'm so glad to have a new HF 40x48 trailer with a full 840 lb capacity.

The mill is a different matter. Still palletized from the future-former-owner's move-in about 10 years ago, it's 5 feet high and 800 pounds, maybe 1000. Plus tooling and accessories. 

That needs professional machinery movers. Handy enough for me, there's such a company about 10-walking minutes from me, and they're willing to let me "piggyback" on another customer's transport when there's something nearby. After waiting all those years to get the mill out of their garage, the seller is OK with a little longer. I'm OK waiting a while, since I've got considerable preparation to complete. I'm also OK waiting a while to snagb 75% (or more) discount on machinery moving, compared to the company making a special trip just for me. It would've been disappointing to spend twice as much on moving as spent on the equipment.

This raises questions such as the following:

* What to do about the tired SB 9x48 I mentioned first?

* Are parts interchangeable between the two SB lathes?

* Do I keep the 3-phase motor on the mill or replace it with a single phase?

* What's the best way to start learning to use these lovely tools?

Sooo many chips to make!

Sooo little time!

Sigh.


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## woodtickgreg (Nov 15, 2012)

Yeah, pics for sure!


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## Tamper84 (Nov 15, 2012)

Awesome!!!! Wheres the pictures??? lol Cant wait to see them!!!!

Chris


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Horizontal Mill Pics*



Tamper84 said:


> Wheres the pictures???


Per Request:


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*SB 9x36 Pics, Pre-Transport*


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## 8ntsane (Nov 19, 2012)

Lucky,,,Yep Id so so.
Nice find :thumbzup:


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## Tamper84 (Nov 19, 2012)

Very nice!!!!


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Where da South Bend? Where Da Sout-Bend?*

My newest tool is home, sort of.

Though I anticipated using my new HF "mini trailer" , I've not yet wired the lights nor installed the platform, so it's not quite ready to work, and I fully disassembled the SB 9x36 to transport it home.

The disassembly exercise was triply useful. First, I got a really close look at all the "bits-and-bobs". Second, I was able to assess what parts I'd need to replace from eBay, or to augment from eBay, HF, NT, CL or Grizzly. Thirdly, I've got access to all the pieces and parts for cleaning, lubrication, (maybe) painting and, if required, repair.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Power Plant*

The prime mover is a Montgomery Ward 1/2 horsepower, 120 volt single phase actuated by an Allen-Bradley reversible magnetic motor starter.

Originally, the lathe was operated aboard a US Navy submarine within the ships tool shop. The "Monty Ward" motor was a later addition, but the mounting bracket and clutch support for the jackshaft are original, including the pillow blocks. The pulleys are in excellent shape, and the motor runs very smoothly in forward and reverse.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Head End - Power, C*

All parts present and account for, Sir!


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Cutters*

There's several relatively new cutters for the (included) left, right and center tool holders.

There's quite a few "shorties" for the (included) boring bars.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Headstock*

To my eye, the spindle, tumbler and stud gears look very nice.

They're not chewed up like the SB 9x48 I've mentioned elsewhere.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Carriage*

The gears look fine, but I didn't think to flip around the apron.

The tailstock at center reard has  a keyless Jacobs chuck mounted, along with a live center. There's several other Jacobs chucks included, both keyed and keyless, all with their own morse taper mount.

The cross slide and compound slide work nice and smoothly, with no perceptible backlash. The scales are very nice, and easily legible.

The lead screw in the foreground turns oh-so-smoothly in it's bearing, with no slip or runout.

I don't know how to check the micrometer stop, but in due time!

There's a hex wrench included for pretty much every screw I need, and a few more.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Tailstock*

The tailstock does what tailstock do: 

The ram extends and retracts smoothly, locks securely and mounts on the ways. 

That rusty little surface gauge and the rusty bushing are the only rust I've yet found on the machine, accessories or tooling.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Wrenches, Spanners, Collets, Hex Keys, Bushings*


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Tool Holders*

There's left-hand, right-hand, center and parting tool holders included, plus 3 boring bars.

Plenty to get started, but I'm inclined to fabricate a quick change tool post.

For one thing, they're convenient. For another, it's a nice challenge to fabricate.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*3-Jaw, Faceplates w/ Dogs, Jacobs Chucks*

There's no 4-jaw chuck included, but there's a right-angle adapter, as described by Gingery, plus the Gingery V-block.

As solace, there's several sizes of chucks, both keyed and keyless, complete with chuck keys

There's also variously sized faceplates, plus drive dogs.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Change Gears*

Lots of change gears.

Lots of sizes, including a few duplicates.

Very nice condition, with little-to-no-wear, at least, to my ignorant eye.

(Karma Question: "Can an Eye Indeed be Ignorant?")


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Woodturning Tooling*

There's a couple tool rests for wood chisels, along with turning centers and a polishing mandrel.


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## mx5mke (Nov 19, 2012)

*Drilling & Milling Tooling*

There's some cutting tools to get me started.


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## woodtickgreg (Nov 19, 2012)

Man, if that thing followed me home I wouldn't be able to control myself and I would have to do a full on restore of it! Major tinker time!


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## yachtsmanbill (Nov 21, 2012)

That small milling machine reminded of what I saw on Craigs List today. Ellison Bay is 25 miles north of Sturgeon Bay Wi.   ws

http://greenbay.craigslist.org/tls/3424315773.html


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## Tamper84 (Nov 21, 2012)

Wow that is a very nice haul!!! How do you know that it was on a sub??

Chris


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## Jerry457 (Nov 22, 2012)

what a find. it appears you have every possible tool made now


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## FastPauly (Nov 22, 2012)

Whew!!  Nice haul....sure wish I had all that tooling in my shop.:thinking:


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## mrtechnologist2u (Dec 3, 2012)

First...Congratulations on a great find!

2nd you cant have a wife!  Or you wont for long! LOL!  My Wife (who is verrrry understanding would skin me alive if I unloaded my greasy, grimey "treasures" on her laundry space!

Seriously this as to be in the top 10 great finds.  Just for the extras alone!


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## core-oil (Dec 3, 2012)

Congrats,

  That is a very good find, it looks a pretty good condition for its age &just a nice size for home workshop use 

  Enjoy


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## mx5mke (Dec 4, 2012)

*A dramatic falsehood always trumps a boring truth*



Tamper84 said:


> Wow that is a very nice haul!!! How do you know that it was on a sub??


_*The falsely dramatic drives out the truly boring.*_


That's the story the seller's son shared on my first visit to see the items. The same story arose several times, so it's possibly true, or possibly repeated so often as to BECOME true.

The seller reiterated the same story when I went to fetch the lathe, and the details sounded the same as the son said.

The seller mentioned the same details this past Sunday when I went to fetch the upper portions of the mill. 

(The base portion of the mill required a separate trip, due to the weight. It's a mostly solidly block of cast iron about 36 inches high and 12x12 inches wide and deep, with 3x24x24 inch platforms on top and bottom.)


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## mx5mke (Dec 4, 2012)

*"Make your own luck" and "You can *always* spend more!"*



Jerry457 said:


> what a find.


Verily!

I must've done something good to somebody deserving that karma would send such a pleasant bit of fortune in my direction.

Still, luck rewards the prepared, and I'd been diligently scouring CL on a daily basis for all the "major" sites within a few hundred miles: Milwaukee, Madison, and Chicago usually have some interesting "bits-and-bobs", but only rarely worth making a long drive to fetch. 

Reminded me of a similar find several years ago when scouring CL for since "better" wheels for a 1991 Miata. I'd been checking several times daily on each of the above-mentioned sites when I discovered a 1995 "Leather Package" (top-line-trim) with 8192 miles (on a 13-year-old car) offered by the original owner (with original sales order having the sellers name). Being mid-December, on the day AFTER a 10-inch snowfall, on the day BEFORE *another* 10-inch snowfall, only (shrewd) fools would shop for a 4-wheel, 2-door, 2-seat, drop-top "motorcycle." According to people more knowledgable than me, I paid "A thousand bucks less than a fantastic fire-sale price."

Lightning struck twice, but that's pretty common.

If lightning didn't strike the same place twice, there'd be no need for lightning rods.

Also, this guy wouldn't be famous.



Jerry457 said:


> it appears you have every possible tool made now


Under-accurate.

There's always another gadget, or gee-gaw, or widget to add to the tool kit. For proof, watch Norm Abrams' TV show for 17 minutes.

Same, same when I did photography. There's always another gadget for the gadget-hound to lust after. The hounds never discovered that skillphull imagers don't really need the fancy gadgets to create powerful and effective images. They need technical competence, a functioning camera, and a clear understanding of what they're trying to "say" and "how to say it". 

Don't tell that to the guy who just dropped five or ten grand on fancy Nikon cameras and lenses, but still can't make images that "affect" anybody, like this or these, or these.

When I see those images, I'm immersing myself in the "feel of the moment", not the technique or tool to craft the message. 

Same, same with metalwork.

The lathe or mill are certainly essential to the effort, and having a decent cutting tool is pretty important, but even with a minimal tool, a skilled craftsman can accomodate the tools' limitations.

I don't have a steadyrest or follower or rotary table, or taper attachment, or any of a THOUSAND other helpers.

No problem. I work around, or without or "beg, borrow, buy or steal" what I need, when I need it. (Or rent.)

[Wow. Windy here today.]


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## mx5mke (Dec 4, 2012)

*Careful what you wish for.*



mrtechnologist2u said:


> 2nd you cant have a wife!  Or you wont for long! LOL!


Would you REALLY want a spouse more upset about a fresh batch of greasy, grimy, [gopher] guts than pleased at your newest treasure?

Hardly seems a mutually supportive scenario.



mrtechnologist2u said:


> My Wife (who is verrrry understanding would skin me alive if I unloaded my greasy, grimey "treasures" on her laundry space!



For one thing, they're neither "greasy" nor particularly "grimey".

For another thing, I protected the formica with plywood for the components that might scuff or scratch the surfaces.

And so far as putting tooling on the countertop, I'm more concerned with nicking the cutting edges than damaging the countertop.

In passing, the countertop is due for replacement with glazed ceramic tile, to withstand the heat of welding.



mrtechnologist2u said:


> would skin me alive


Some methods of expiry are better than others. Flailing beats fire, but only barely.

Sounds like it's time to hire a good laundry service.

In the interests of peace, harmony, tranquility and nookie.


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## jpfabricator (Dec 4, 2012)

So just being nosey, what did all this set you back??(Im a little green with envy)


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## mx5mke (Dec 5, 2012)

*Value is remembered long after price is forgotten.*



jpfabricator said:


> what did all this set you back??


US$450.00

That's not including the trailer, which I had already ordered from HF before finding this equipment, nor the scrap steel to fabricate the trailer hitches for 3 Miatas and a Sonata, nor the 5-4-wire converter to attach trailer lighting to the vehicles, nor the ball mount, or the towing ball, nor the welding equipment to assemble the aforementioned scrap steel. 

I'm into all that "gooh-gaah" for another US$400.

So "Grand total" might be US$850 or so. 

Should I view the tooling as independent expenses, since the trailer, hitch and welding equipment are all usable for subsequent projects? Some would (correctly) say I should include the amortized cost of the equipment and expendables consumed on the project against the total lifetime of the equipment.

How much of the trailer's US$175.00 price should I include with the lathe and mill? And the US$25.00 scrap steel? And the US$80.00 stick welder?

It's a MYStery how much I paid!


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## JT. (Dec 6, 2012)

you got a lot of extras there finding a good lathe is one but the extras is where the real money go to 
and you got a little fortune in acc.


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## mx5mke (Dec 6, 2012)

*"The Journey is Half the Fun"*



JT. said:


> extras is where the real money go


Amusingly, I'm looking forward to fabricating some of the most valuable fixtures and accessories using the Gingery books.

Naturally, the first task is constructing a forge with which to cast the accessories. There's great plans for a rotary table and dividing head, among others. Of course, home casting calls for a whole new skill set involving "fire!". Girls like playing with fire. That's why girls like welding. Getting to play with fire is a big reason why welding pays so poorly. Welders need learn extremely complex metallurgy and physics to successfully join a vast range of materials under a huge variety of conditions with multiple processes and tools with lots of different technologies. Many of those processes are extremely hazardous, and welders often operate in dangerous situations. 

One would expect that such hazardous work requiring such great skill skillful in such hazardous conditions would pay very well.

One would be wrong.

At least in the USA, welder's pay is lousy, so there's a long term, large scale shortage of welders.

Why's the pay so lousy?

'Cause welders get to play with fire all day long.


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## Elmo (Dec 12, 2012)

Wow you stole that stuff, just kidding, that was a real find. I received a 9" south bend in good shape as a gift from one of the few true friends that I have. I also have the Gingery books and today I have been breaking up a cast aluminum wheel for casting stock. Only have seven more to go. Also stripped a mini water heater to make my furnace. Good luck with your casting project.
    Elmo


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