# Good morning PM users, new guy here



## Steve R (Jun 11, 2020)

Hello everyone. I have been looking at getting a new lathe (have an Atlas) and looking at couple of the PM's 1340GT & 1440GT. I'm also planing on getting a mill. I was looking at the 833T and starting to lean toward the 949T, I have the room so that is not a concern. Haven't decided on the V or S part yet. These will be for my hobby and helping my son out with is business and doing prototype/design and some production work. The 1440GT & 949T will pretty much max out my $$ for the equipment. One of the biggest concerns I have is spending that kind of money without looking at the machines. I'm located in kind of in the Central - SE corner of South Dakota. Is there anyone around here or a neighboring state that would allow me to see their machines?? I'm not looking to use or run them but it would be nice to actually touch and see some of the controls. I have talked to PM but they didn't have much on hand and it is 12 hr one way. I'm very open to everyone's comments that have any of the machines good or bad. 
Thanks
Steve


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## Tozguy (Jun 11, 2020)

Hi Steve,
Sorry I can't help you with viewing some lathes but am wishing you the best of luck in your venture.
Welcome to the fun here.
Mike


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## Bob Korves (Jun 11, 2020)

Welcome to H-M, Steve!  Be careful not to spend so much on your machines that you do not have enough left over to tool them, which costs more than one might guess.  Those are good machines.  My family is from Reliance (near Chamberlain) on my mom's side, and from Yankton on my dad's side.


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## wrmiller (Jun 11, 2020)

Hi Steve, and welcome to the forum! 

I'm too far away to show you a 1340GT or my 935 mill, sorry. And I'll second what Bob said in that you need to keep a big chunk of your budget set aside for tooling and whatnot. I personally spent as much on tooling, dros, and other stuff as I did for the machines themselves!


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## DavidR8 (Jun 11, 2020)

Welcome to the rabbit hole errr, forum!
We’re here to help you spend your money! Wisely of course. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidR8 (Jun 11, 2020)

Welcome to the rabbit hole errr, forum!
We’re here to help you spend your money! Wisely of course. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidR8 (Jun 11, 2020)

Welcome to the rabbit hole errr, forum!
We’re here to help you spend your money! Wisely of course. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## T Bredehoft (Jun 11, 2020)

David, keep a choke hold on your iPhone.


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## JRaut (Jun 11, 2020)

+1 for making sure you set aside enough for tooling, micrometers, bits, and bobs.

The "oh, just another $50 here; another $100 there" purchases add up in a hurry.

My machines are 'old iron' so I didn't spend the big bucks on new equipment. But I've easily got more money tied up in tooling, measurement equipment, and the like than in the machines themselves. By a long shot, in fact.

So, I'd take your total budget and divide by 2 or so. That's what you ought to spend on the machines, in my opinion.

I'm just over in Minneapolis; you'd be more than welcome to take a look at what I've got, but my lathe is from 1943 and my Bridgeport is from 1989. So not even close to the same category as what you're looking at.


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## 7milesup (Jun 11, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Welcome to the rabbit hole errr, forum!
> We’re here to help you spend your money! Wisely of course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It's ok Dave, sometimes I stutter too...!!  

Steve R...   Welcome.  Like Dave pointed out, we will be glad to help you spend your money.   As far as tooling, the guys have it correct, you are going to spend a fair amount on accoutrements for the machines.  However, it also depends on your timeline and other factors.  IF you are going to buy everything at once, yes, that is a huge amount.  My suggestion is buy what you need now to make the parts you need now.  As you grow into this, you will find what is really necessary for your equipment.  For example, maybe you NEED a slitting cutter for the mill, or maybe it is not high on the list so wait until your funds recover.  I buy and sell a fair amount of stuff on auctions to fund my habit... errrmmm, I mean hobby.

I have a  PM833T which I would be glad to show it to you, but for 7 hour drive, I don't think it would be worth it.

Also, new iron vs old iron...  I too would like a really nice older American lathe.  Problem is, most of them are so far away and usually on an auction that I can't justify the time to "just go look".  I would not buy Chinese.  Taiwanese, sure.  My next lathe (currently have a PM1022, which is too small) will most likely be new and from Taiwan, just because it is a known quantity, as in new with a warranty.  YMMV


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## bill70j (Jun 11, 2020)

Steve R said:


> I'm very open to everyone's comments that have any of the machines good or bad.
> Thanks
> Steve


Steve:
I have had my PM-1440GT for three years.  I am very happy with the purchase and would make the same decision without hesitation.

I have had to call PM only twice - once to address a loose connection in the lock-out switch on the gearbox cover, and once to address a minor issue with the DRO I bought from them.  Both times Matt answered my call and worked me through the issues over the phone.

We have had discussions on this Board regarding the compound lock down design, but I have not experienced any problems with my machine. 

From my point of view, PM's reputation as a supplier of quality machines and excellent customer service is solid.

HTH,  Bill


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## Skowinski (Jun 11, 2020)

Not a new guy here, but lurking in this thread because I'm teetering on the brink of ordering a PM-833T.  Steve R I've been researching these machines for over a month now, and overall am hearing very favorable things about them, particularly the Taiwanese machines, and perhaps especially about Precision Matthews customer service.  Twice I've emailed them and got a response almost immediately both times.  I'll take that as a sign of things to come after I buy....


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## Stonebriar (Jun 11, 2020)

Steve,
I have the 1440GT and  the 935TV mill and would purchase again. The compound lock issue in the 1440 has been addressed on the newer machines. Mine is almost a year old and they moved the hole to another spot on the dial. Only thing  would do different is to get the 949 instead if the 935. Great company to buy from.


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## Kiwi Canuck (Jun 11, 2020)

If you are buying 2 machines at the same time you can probably get a few extra dollars discount with a package deal and some savings on shipping as well, Cash or equivalent will get you another discount 2-3%.
Great machines and great company to deal with.

David


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## Steve R (Jun 11, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. I know they say about 50% of machine cost to go to tooling. However I'm a mechanic and know that tool buying never ends. I have been doing that since early 1983 and still buying tools. I also like to have really good stuff and not the cheap to get me by for now (till it breaks when you need it).  I'm thinking the 1340GT would do what I want but don't know how much the brake and coolant would be used on the 1440GT besides being beefier.  Between the two with the accessories I picked from PM is about $3K different, which could/would go for tooling. But I would also rather spend the extra 3K on the 1440GT if it is a better fit for what I would like to do. I would rather over spend now, then get the a 1340GT and later wished I had the 1440GT. It is a tough call. It is easier to come up with money for tooling as time goes by then to come up with enough to buy another machine. I know if I would get the 1340 and later want the 1440 my son would say, just buy the 1440 and I will take the 1340 out of your way (for free) to help out . I do have some measuring tools (indicators, mikes, calipers, etc.). I have nothing for the mill as far as tooling goes. Between the 833T and the 949T it would be $3200 difference. But it is the same way as the lathe.  Anyone here bought a knee mill and wished they had gotten a benchtop unit instead or bought a benchtop and wished they went with knee mill later?? Sorry for the rambling. It is much tougher when you can't actually see them to compare them.


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## wrmiller (Jun 11, 2020)

I've had several benchtops. From a little shurline mill up to my current PM935TS. I've run larger mills, but my space and money constraints kept me from getting a 949T or 1054T.

To answer your question about bed or knee mill, I prefer the knee mill. I do mostly small hobby stuff and build/customize a few pistols and rifles when I can. I used to do everything on a bench mill. I do the same things on a knee mill faster/easier. YMMV. 

If I had the funds, I'd have a PM1054TV and a PM1440TL. But I haven't won the lottery yet, so I'm happy to keep what I have.


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## 7milesup (Jun 11, 2020)

Just a thought here... if you plan on converting to CNC down the road,  a heavy bench mill (like the 833) I would think would be more conducive to conversion.  Of course, you could get a HAAS too...


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## springer (Jun 11, 2020)

Wish I was still in sioux falls, I'd let you come play with my 1340gt. Love it. I've had several "old iron" lathes and then bought a pm1236 and a pm932 mill. Sold those 2 and bought the 1340gt. Dont regret it at all. Love my 1340. As for the 1340 vs 1440, I think it would just come down to capacity. Both are quality machines. If you get the 3 phase and a vfd, the brake on the 1440 becomes irrelevant. and you have the gap bed if you need to turn something larger in diameter. If it were me, unless I had a specific need for the 14" swing, I'd save the money and buy tooling with the 1340.


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## mksj (Jun 11, 2020)

Being a mechanic, I assume you will have some bigger/heavier projects, so I would look at the bigger heavier machines. It is a big jump up cost wise from the 1340GT to 1440GT, you do get a larger spindle bore, more Hp and heavier bed. Foot brake is somewhat relative, I owned the 1340GT and without VFD braking I would be uncomfortable using it. With a VFD, you get faster braking (1-2 seconds), smooth acceleration, variable speed on the fly and better surface finish compared to single phase. Foot brake is great for emergency stop with 100% reliability and also holding the chuck when manually tapping, etc. Tooling wise there is a much heavier investment on the lathe end then the mill at this level.

On the mill, I would recommend a full sized knee mill  since you have the space. If you were limited, then maybe the PM-833 or 940. I started out with the 1340GT and a benchtop, and subsequently moved up to a full sized knee mill and a much heavier lathe. Quantitatively I get the same precision from all the machines, the knee gives me more table space, has much less vibration and much easier to do bigger projects. It does always come down to the budget, and then you are always looking at the next bigger machine/model. Really depends the nature/size of the work and if you plan on keeping your machines for a long time. I do not see any upgrades in the future for my machines in the time I will be around, so the spend factor is amortized over hopefully many years of use. The 949 mill is a good size table, I have a 9 x 42" table and there are a few times I wished I went with the 9 x 50" just to be able to fit multiple fixtures on the table. My arms are not that long so most of the time I am happy with the shorter width. Deciding on the TS/TV, most people I have known buying these types of mills will go with the TV if single phase motor or the TV 3 phase motor if they have an RPC, otherwise the TS 3 phase with a VFD. Cost wise probably the least expensive is probably the TS 3 phase with the VFD but requires a bit of work to wire it up.

It is a bit going out on a limb buying a machine site unseen, but there is an abundance of user experience on this site for these machines and individuals willing to share their reviews. I would look at features, quality and post sales service. It is also just not a numbers game, and poor quality smalls thrown into the package. Like good tools, better to have fewer quality tools then a draw full of crap tools that you do not use anymore. If you are careful and not what you are looking for you can pick up some NOS of lightly used tooling and very reasonable prices.


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## davidpbest (Jun 11, 2020)

Steve R said:


> Thanks for the replies. I know they say about 50% of machine cost to go to tooling. However I'm a mechanic and know that tool buying never ends. I have been doing that since early 1983 and still buying tools. I also like to have really good stuff and not the cheap to get me by for now (till it breaks when you need it).  I'm thinking the 1340GT would do what I want but don't know how much the brake and coolant would be used on the 1440GT besides being beefier.  Between the two with the accessories I picked from PM is about $3K different, which could/would go for tooling. But I would also rather spend the extra 3K on the 1440GT if it is a better fit for what I would like to do. I would rather over spend now, then get the a 1340GT and later wished I had the 1440GT. It is a tough call. It is easier to come up with money for tooling as time goes by then to come up with enough to buy another machine. I know if I would get the 1340 and later want the 1440 my son would say, just buy the 1440 and I will take the 1340 out of your way (for free) to help out . I do have some measuring tools (indicators, mikes, calipers, etc.). I have nothing for the mill as far as tooling goes. Between the 833T and the 949T it would be $3200 difference. But it is the same way as the lathe.  Anyone here bought a knee mill and wished they had gotten a benchtop unit instead or bought a benchtop and wished they went with knee mill later?? Sorry for the rambling. It is much tougher when you can't actually see them to compare them.



I've had a couple of benchtop mills and moved to a knee mill a couple years ago (PM935).   I also have a PM1340.  Precision Matthews has been delightful to work with and has been prompt at correcting issues and having parts shipped from the factory via air when required.

Some specific comments on the lathe choice:   You may already be aware of the spec differences, but I'll point out the salient differences here because it's awfully easy to get sidetracked on differences that don't much matter.   The 1440 has an enclosed gearbox, the 1340 has an open bottom Norton style gearbox.   This may or many not be important to you, but the Norton is messy since it drips oil but can easily removed if you ever plan to implement an electronic lead screw system.   The 1440 chuck interface is D1-5 camlock with an MT 5-1/2 internal taper and 2" bore, the 1340 is D1-4 camlock with MT5 internal taper and 1-9/16" bore.   The 1440 is about 500 pounds heavier than the 1340 and that will surely translate into some improved rigidity, but that's not exactly the full story since the compound is the weakest link in rigidity IMO, and I've moved on to a solid tool post on my 1340 to gain the desired rigidity.   I have also upgraded my 1340 in several ways including a VFD which provides all the braking capability I need.   I also run MQL coolant (Fogbuster) rather than flood and find it sufficient for the kind of work I do (stainless and 4140 mostly). You could always add flood coolant later on the 1340 if you found you needed it.   Which ever one you decide on, install a DRO and a quality QC tool post.   Lots of people here have moved to VFD driven motors, and some (me included) have even swapped out the factory motor for a vector drive motor with superior torque and HP.   Pick your chucks with as much care as the machine itself.

While the differences between the two lathes you call out are real, IMO those differences are small in comparison to the differences between the 833T and the PM949.   The capacity differences of the two machines are obvious and potentially important in your decision, but the biggest difference IMO is reflected in the weight of the two machines and how that will translate into rigidity.   The 833T is about 900 pounds, whereas the 949 is 2300 pounds.   My PM935 is more like 1500 pounds but has proven to be less rigid than the RF45 benchtop mill it replaced.   I will confess to being a stickler on a couple of aspects related to mills:   one is the rigidity, which translates directly into how aggressive you can be removing material and how surfaces finish and tolerances can be maintained;  the other is low end torque for heavy drilling and machine tapping.   I bring up the latter because the 833 comes in two drive types, The 833T geared head with substantial low end torque, the 833TV belt driven substantially higher top speed but at diminished low speed torque.   You might find_* this white paper *_an interesting read since it chronicles some of my "learned wisdom" on these topics in my move from the benchtop RF45 to the PM935 baby knee mill.   A couple of other things worth mentioning:  a power drawbar is one of the most useful additions to any mill, and there are commercial products and more DIY info on adding a PDB to the J-head 949, and almost no information that I've found on putting a PDB on the 833, which means it will be more challenging.     Also, power feed on the X-axis for the table is available for both machines, but if you want Y-axis power feed, commercial units are available for the 949 but not the 833.

PM me if you'd like to delve deeper into any of this.   FWIW, here are links to my *PM1340 lathe build log*, and my *PM935 build log*. Good luck in your selection.


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## Skowinski (Jun 12, 2020)

mksj said:


> ....On the mill, I would recommend a full sized knee mill  since you have the space..... It does always come down to the budget, and then you are always looking at the next bigger machine/model. Really depends the nature/size of the work and if you plan on keeping your machines for a long time......



These comments fit with my experience with lathes.  I started with a "toy" 6" lathe and within a year found out I needed something bigger.  So, I bought a South Bend 9" cabinet model and rebuilt/restored it.  I thought that would be enough, but I'm now finding that I sometimes wish I had an even larger capacity machine, and am thinking that one day I'll go up in size again.

This is exactly what drove my thinking away from the smaller PM bench mills like the 727, which I was considering a few weeks ago, and towards the larger end of the bench mill line they offer.


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## 7milesup (Jun 12, 2020)

I know this doesn't really relate to the size lathes you are looking at but I have a PM1022 and within a few months of owning it, I wished I had bought  a bigger one.  That was a few years ago and I still have it, only because life has gotten in the way of doing anything about it (like buying land and building an new house and shop...).


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## tjb (Jun 12, 2020)

Welcome to the forum, Steve.

Not much to add to the comments here - everything above is good sound advice from those who have used these machines for many years.  I do not have a PM lathe, but my Eisen 1440 is nearly identical to the PM 1440GT.  Both are Taiwanese with very similar features.  The most significant 'plus' on the PM is the larger spindle bore; on the Eisen, it's the heavier weight.  With the equipment you're considering, the good news is that it will be nearly impossible to make a mistake.  Both lathes and mills you're considering are great machines and as has been pointed out by numerous responses, service from PM is incomparable.  The only reason I went with an Eisen over PM is because I got a steal of a deal in December on a close-out.  My opinion - weight makes a difference.  I'm purely a hobbyist, but I've used both heavy duty machines and some lighter ones (both mills and lathes).  To me there is a notable difference in results with the heavier machines.  But again, that's only one rookie hobbyist's opinion.  I would be inclined to pay considerably more attention to the counsel of our seasoned veterans.

The biggest 'me too' I'll offer from one who has not accumulated a lifetime of tooling is the cost of tools and other peripherals.  It can get very expensive very quickly.  I have learned two things with regard to these expenses:  1, don't be afraid to buy used.  Sometimes used tooling is out there that is, for all intents and purposes, new but at significantly reduced prices.  And 2, listen to the experts.  If you see something on ebay or craigslist that seems like a great deal, put out an APB here at Hobby Machinist.  You're guaranteed to get some of the veterans here that can give you guidance on whether it's a good deal or something to avoid.  I've had BOTH happen - snagging a steal of a deal, as well as, dodging a bad deal.

Again, welcome.  And you are to be commended for picking a hobby that can facilitate your son's activities professionally.

Regards,
Terry


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## Steve R (Jun 20, 2020)

When you think you got it all figured out, here comes the curve ball .  I had pretty much decided on the 1440GT for the lathe since it was brought to my attention that it has an enclosed gear box. Then other brands were mentioned. I'm still sticking to a Taiwan made but there a so many choices and price differences even when the specs look very close, whether on the mill or lathe. You always want to get the best for the almighty $$$$. It is much worse then cream filled or jelly filled at break time .


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## Stonebriar (Jun 21, 2020)

I dont think you can beat the support you get from Matt at Precision Matthews.


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## ACHiPo (Jun 21, 2020)

Welcome!


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## MtnBiker (Jul 10, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> PM me if you'd like to delve deeper into any of this.   FWIW, here are links to my *PM1340 lathe build log*, and my *PM935 build log*. Good luck in your selection.


The lathe build log is amazing. I don't know what all that is but I think I should want to do it.


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