# 10l Spindle Help



## dlane (Aug 16, 2015)

Hi all, I'm stumped , so I did the thrust roller bearing upgrade , it works good , I replaced all the shim packs to the correct thicknesses, oiled bearings with spindle oil  snugged caps down , snugged expanders
lift test front bearing .001 , rear .0009 , end play .001 , started machine, bearings got hotter quicker, motor started bogging down , shut down mach. Both caps warmed up
I put a .0005 dti on front spindle loosened the cap and spindle dropped .002 tightened cap and spindle raised .002 . I'm stumped, guess spindle is comming back out  , anyone know a way to check offset bearing journal alignment ?. Sorry for all the spindle posts
Any advice , recommendations, suggestions , kick in the pants
Appreciated


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## DoogieB (Aug 16, 2015)

I think you have the caps too tight (shims aren't thick enough).  Probably the reason the bearings are getting hot is because they don't have enough (or any) room for the proper amount of oil film.

My lathe is a 10K, so I can only be of limited help to you, but I found getting an accurate reading off the bearing for the lift test to be tedious.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/removed-the-spindle-from-the-sb-10k.25750/

The two pictures show the positions for the indicator I found that actually worked.  The bearing on the left was the problem as it was getting hot and the lathe was starting slow as you described.  When I removed the take-up collar and measured at the bearing I found there was very little (if any) bearing spacing, you just have to be careful and not push the shaft over while lifting with the bar.  A measurement from a few inches out towards the end of the shaft was giving a bad, higher reading. 

The pictures show a Starrett Last Word with .0005 resolution, but later on I bought a snug for my other indicator, a Federal with .0001 resolution, which is what you really need for the lift test.


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## dlane (Aug 16, 2015)

Thanks DoogieB nice 10k write up  don't have a tenth indicator " yet" 
Going to dive back into it today and pull spindle and try to check alignment and look for anything not rite ,anyone know what and how the expanders work ? How to check alignment?.
Thanks
Derrick


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## Kernbigo (Aug 16, 2015)

Make sure  the felts are in the write place that can mess you up big time. I use a torque wrench to set mine that way you can increase the torque to get more clearance, before adding shim. Also leave the thrust bearing with more clearance tell you get the lift set. You also may not have enough oil pocket left in the bearings, you may have to spot them in with a spoon scraper.


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## woodtickgreg (Aug 16, 2015)

I bought the book on ebay for rebuilding the 10L, it is an invaluable resource to have on hand for all things southbend lathe. It's like the ultimate owners manual.  When I rebuilt my 10L it was a huge help. The book can explain how to set the clearance and talks all about the bearings and expanders and how they work. I took a lot of pictures of my rebuild when I did it and showed how I did the lift test. I can run mine for hours and the caps never even get warm. I also showed in my rebuild some problems I had with grooved/galled bearings and how I repaired them. It is a long thread so you will have to find the page where I did the lift test but it may help you.


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## dlane (Aug 16, 2015)

Thanks Greg , Kernbigo , felts are all good , I have the rebuild book but fail to understand how expanders work, I'm guessing when snug they expand bronze bearing to casting Id 
So I pulled spindle , rear bearing seemed like it got a little warm on sides not on top or bottom
I checked Id and it was egg shaped by .003 tighter on sides, I got it round again by .00002
Hope that helped, I'll know latter when I reassemble, test , run. If it still gets warm I'll leave things as loose as I think nesasery and run it hopefully it will ware in , if it frys I'll be looking for different headstock, I guess. O ya Kernbigo what were you torquing caps or expanders ?. Check back later.
Thanks again


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## Kernbigo (Aug 17, 2015)

You don't have a set amount of torque, if you want more lift in the spindle you decrease the amount of torque, or add more shim if you can't get it with less torque  i would use more shim stock. Mine are set at 13# on the front and 10# on the rear. Start and set the bearings at .001, lift front and back.


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## dlane (Aug 17, 2015)

Hi all , spindle is laying in head stock caps are still off , going to go out and finish up shortly


Kernbigo said:


> You don't have a set amount of torque, if you want more lift in the spindle you increase the amount of torque, or add more shim if you can't get it with more torque. The range i would use is from 10#- 50#. Mine are set at 13# on the front and 10# on the rear. Start and set the bearings at .001, lift front and back.[/QUOTE
> Kernbigo are you torquing the expander or cap bolts, I guess I'm confused I thought more torque on caps tightened bearing = less lift , expanders loose or tight = ? . I'll know more later


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## dlane (Aug 17, 2015)

So caps still getting warm front worse than back, it didn't like running with caps loose , tried to stop looks likes someone pulled large front bearing cap without  removing lock screws , dovetails are kinda chewed up, to me that would mean the bearing is egg shaped from the expander being pulled thru the dovetails. What you think I should do ?
Run it for short times hope it wares in , try to find bearings in good shape , find whole headstock , anyone know a source for new bearings, emailed Ted for some
Thanks


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## woodtickgreg (Aug 17, 2015)

Bearings are kinda hard to come by, you might get lucky and find a used set. I think I saw a set on feebay but I don't know if they are still there. New ones are non exsistant and if you do find them they bring outragous prices! My dovetails where good so I just cleaned them up a little with a brake cylinder hone and a fine stone to make them round and clean up the scoring. I put the bearings in the headstock and put the caps on loosely with the bolts to hold the shape. Then I polished them with some 600 grit wet dry paper and some oil. I buffed the spindle and man does it work good. I spins very freely by hand, gets a rotation or two. I had to source a new used headstock for mine and still reworked the bearings, the original headstock was butchered by a hack quite badly. The point of all this is that you have options, just be patient, take your time, and do it right. If someone ever figures out how to make these bearings they could sell a bunch I'm betting.


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## Andre (Aug 17, 2015)

I don't use shims on my 13" SB (bronze sleeve w/expanders), I just find them a pain and they were mangled from a previous owner. When in doubt, make sure oil is getting to wherever it's needed and don't tighten those caps too much. For hydro-static something something (insert technical blabber here) theoretical friction-less running, they have to be snug not tight. 0.015-0.002 is recommended by South Bend as far as I know and remember. Theoretically while running there should be a 100% oil film between the spindle and bearings. All the bearing wear is generally when the spindle starts/stops.


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## Kernbigo (Aug 17, 2015)

So have you checked the lift after you ran it?


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## dlane (Aug 17, 2015)

Lift is in spec when caps are tight, I'm thinking have some mandrels made of both dimensions big and small of spindle +.0005 ,put bearings on mandrel wrap bearing with strap and tighten strap trying to get them rounder. The spindle and bearing surfaces looked good .
When I got Machine the caps were finger tight ,expanders were sitting there screws not ingaged 
Think they knew they messed up the bearings that's why they sold it
Ted said he doesn't have any but wished he did. 
Plazza has some for later style h10 don't know if mine 1957 is later style?.
How would you try to make them round again ?. Thanks Greg after the mandrel thing I'll do the brake cylinder hone with bearings in the castings also. 
Thanks for the advice


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## woodtickgreg (Aug 17, 2015)

When using the hone I just turned it by hand to remove the scoring and grooves in the bearing . It doesn't take much. I would be very leary of removing to much material from the bearing.


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## dlane (Aug 17, 2015)

Point well taken Greg thanks again,  I may wrap hone with some 800 wd paper . I used it to turn some aluminum mandrels.002 larger than the spindle diameters , they got a little warm , 
tomorrow I'll tare back into it


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## Kernbigo (Aug 18, 2015)

First of all how do you know they are not round? The way to check it is in 2 v blocks  using a .0001 indicator. If they are not concentric you find a auto engine rebuilder with a O.D. hone and have them hone concentric. After that you have a master to spoon scrape your plain bearings into.I worked machine repair for 25 years and scraped a lot of bearings and slides in. also the sizes need not be the same od size, they machined and scraped the bearings in individually. Also you are running your bearings to tight for a spindle that is in that need of repair, shim it to get .001 lift on each journal.


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## dlane (Aug 18, 2015)

Kernbigo thanks for replying / advice, the heavy ten bearings don't look like yours , is that a SB10 L ?
The bearings on a 10 L are a cylinder with a dovetail cut in them , the expander with coresponding dovetails fit in the bearing , when in place the expanders are snugged to expand bearing to the casting bore , shims control casting bore Id witch tighten bearing on spindle. Kinda hard to explain, I'll get pics of them when I tare into it later. If the expanders are pulled out with the caps " witch is bad" the top half of the cylinder bearings will be deformed . I beleve that PO did this , the bearing dove tails showed signs of it when I went thru the head stock but I didn't pick up on it then. The bearings in pic look like they need some help, mine don't resemble  that


Kernbigo said:


> Make sure  the felts are in the write place that can mess you up big time. I use a torque wrench to set mine that way you can increase the torque to get more clearance, before adding shim. Also leave the thrust bearing with more clearance tell you get the lift set. You also may not have enough oil pocket left in the bearings, you may have to spot them in with a spoon scraper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks


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## dlane (Aug 20, 2015)

Hi all, still stumped , got bearings round again by putting striped spindle and bearings in casting tightened caps without shims , they are round again, reassembled spindle ,installed on headstock Shimed to.001 lift both ends , spindle spins good 2 full rotations spinning by hand, with caps and expanders snug ,Large cap still getting warm, all felts are rite and working ,thrust 
Bearing is new roller , eBay has a 10L headstock $279 + $120 Shipping kinda pricey, 
but I want it rite !.
Any other  SB 10L heavy suggestions
	

		
			
		

		
	






Thanks


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## Kernbigo (Aug 20, 2015)

When you say warm, what is the temp? You can run plain bearings 120- 140 deg. Put in a little synthetic 5w20 motor oi l should reduce some friction. Other wise you will have to scrape in some oil pockets to reduce the friction.


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## dlane (Aug 20, 2015)

Thanks Kernbigo, checking temp with ir thermometer, run ten min , headstock base 86 big cap 104
Ran it with small cap removed , same thing.
Is the synthetic oil detergent if so is that a prob , will it mix with the spindle oil ok ?.
I'll try that before tarring back into it.
The strange part is when I loosen the large cap the spindle drops .0005 , 
tighten cap spindle raises .0005 Seems kinda backwards , 
spindle turns free 2 rotations spinning by hand w belt loose ,caps expanders tight , .001 lift on both
no runout.. Headed to store for oil , check back later
Thanks


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## dlane (Aug 21, 2015)

Hi all ,gona have to stop work on lathe for a week , welding job came up.


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## dlane (Aug 22, 2015)

Thanks Kernbigo couldn't find a way to reply to your pm , I'll get back after it in a couple days.


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