# ?s About Rudy Kouhoupt & The Atlas Mf



## Green Frog (Apr 12, 2016)

I just got through watching Rudy Kouhoupt’s video about using the Atlas Horizontal mill, and it left me with a fair number of questions. 


1)  The drawbar he used was a rod, threaded at both ends and using a cylindrical spacer.  Did he just make that as a substitute for the original or was it some sort of special alternative, or improvement or whatever? It did look kinda handy to be able to start the rod into the back of the MT while it was off the machine, then push the rod through from the front.

2)  The arbor he used had no notched collar for the driver that Atlas provided.  Does the arbor work just as well with just the resistance fit of the #2 MT taper or should I always use the specially made arbor with the notched plate engaging the driver?  He was taking some pretty aggressive cuts, but it was in aluminum.

3)  He seemed to feel like the vertical brace in front was necessary to get sufficient rigidity… so much so he built one for himself.  With that honkin’ big overarm, is it really all that necessary?


Mr Kouhoupt’s reputation bordered on the mythical, but I am a little bothered by the seeming discrepancies between what he said about the Atlas and what I seem to be finding in the original instructions and discussions here.  Do any of you actual Atlas users want to chime in here?


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## David VanNorman (Apr 12, 2016)

Number 2 MT uses I believe a 3/8 " threaded rod for a draw bar. Most likely the  stuff he was cutting did not need an arbor with a drive dog or may be he did not have one . If you are useing an arbor you should support it  some way. If you are useing an end mill you don't have that option. I don't have an Atlas but it is how I would do it. My 2 cents.


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## CluelessNewB (Apr 12, 2016)

I believe both Mr Kouhoupt’s drawbar and arbor are shop made items.   The vertical arbor support was not on the early models of the machine but I imagine it was added later for a reason.   

BTW I just noticed looking at the manual that two different  kick out cams were used M1-64X  and MF-14X I have no idea what is different about them.


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## A618fan2 (Apr 13, 2016)

1) Rudy did a series on rebuilding the mill and he probably made the draw bar for it.  The end of an original drawbar is milled square for a wrench. 
2) The arbor drive helps prevent the arbor's morse taper from slipping in the bore during cutting - something you don't want to happen as it could score it and ruin its accuracy.  It's not necessary when using mills.     
3) The mills where originally made without the overarm support.  Later versions have it.  So, both Atlas and Rudy thought it was a good idea.  That's good enough for me but mine (an MF) doesn't have one, wasn't made for one, and so far I haven't needed one.  I suspect the overarm support allowed for heavier cuts demanded by a production/for profit environment or for "tight" tolerances.  We hobbyists can afford to take our time and the mill will probably do what you ask of it within its/your range ;-> Just be cautious.  Your mileage may vary.    

I have both the DVD and the mill.  I like both.  I don't have a ton of experience so when there's a conflict I lean towards the manufacture's instructions and directions.  There's also lots written about the Atlas mills in old Popular Mechanics and Popular Science magazines.  Check out the link here for a collection of Atlas mill resources provided by Pete Albrecht:    http://www.petealbrecht.com/atlasmillshaper/atlasmillshaper.htm

John


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## Firebrick43 (Apr 13, 2016)

1 home made drawbar it sounds.  As long as it fits and provides sufficient draw in who cares. A 2 piece is not a bad idea as it a pain to get the drawbar in if your machine is close to the wall. Mine is 2 piece but it's locktite together to facilitate cheaper/faster/easier machining.  

2. I would.  The drive collar might not be necessary all the time but the time you don't and the arbor and the spindle are damaged you won't be happy.

3.  The overarm is not big!   Put a  .001indicator at the end and see how much deflection 1 finger gives.  Most horizontals with no outboard support have two over arms much bigger in diameter.  2 diameter is 8 times stiffer. One is easy to make.


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## Green Frog (Apr 13, 2016)

A618fan2 said:


> 1) Rudy did a series on rebuilding the mill and he probably made the draw bar for it.  The end of an original drawbar is milled square for a wrench.
> 2) The arbor drive helps prevent the arbor's morse taper from slipping in the bore during cutting - something you don't want to happen as it could score it and ruin its accuracy.  It's not necessary when using mills.
> 3) The mills where originally made without the overarm support.  Later versions have it.  So, both Atlas and Rudy thought it was a good idea.  That's good enough for me but mine (an MF) doesn't have one, wasn't made for one, and so far I haven't needed one.  I suspect the overarm support allowed for heavier cuts demanded by a production/for profit environment or for "tight" tolerances.  We hobbyists can afford to take our time and the mill will probably do what you ask of it within its/your range ;-> Just be cautious.  Your mileage may vary.
> 
> ...



I mistakenly thought that the video package would be a summary of the rebuild process so I would understand the inner workings better.  The DVD has some good stuff in it, but begins with the mill already finished and after briefly pointing out some exterior features, he just showed how he used it.  If I could find out when (what issues) and in which of the sister mags he published those articles in, maybe I could track them down.  If any of you reading this have them and would be willing to photocopy the articles, I would gladly pay for copying and postage.

The stub arbor (for use with a saw) and the full length arbor he showed both lacked the notched collar to engage the arbor driver, so apparently he felt that is wasn't needed for sawing or rather aggressive milling.  I'm not sure I would be comfortable without it, though.  AS has been stated, if that MT begins to slip, the results wouldn't be pretty!  Until I gain a little more experience with this mill I plan to err on the side of caution.


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## Rob (Apr 14, 2016)

Well I had planned to rent this video from smartflix to watch but when I just went to there website it said they were closing. 

As with all things machining the more ridged the better. I do not have the over arm support on my MFB but I have only taken lite cuts with it and have not had a problem. If and when I decide to make something that requires heavier cuts I will look imto making some kind of support for it. 

As for the arbor I can see where having the arbor drive would be needed if using auto feed. If feeding by hand you would stop if you felt or heard something starting to slip. If things are slipping it wouldn't be cutting and if still feeding something would have to give.


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## Green Frog (Apr 14, 2016)

Rob, the PO of my MFC included a rusty overarm support and a half finished home made brace when he sold it to me.  He had gotten them when he bought the mill but they were never installed.  I saw a barrel that he milled from round to octagonal using a shell mill mounted right to the spindle with a #2 MT holder and it was spectacular, so good work can be done without the additional bracing, but of course with rigidity in milling, more is always better, and "too much" is probably impossible. 

As for the arbor set up and having things slip, I suppose you are right about noticing it starting, but I want to be able to use the auto feed, and besides, if you notice it starting to slip, then it "is starting to slip" and probably some damage is already done.  Maybe it will be salvageable, but I'd rather not have the hassle.  I think if I do make one of his stub arbors I'll make it as drawn, but if I use a full length arbor with outboard support it just seems prudent to use one that has the pins to "dog" it in place.


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## Steve-626 (Apr 14, 2016)

Rob said:


> *Well I had planned to rent this video from smartflix to watch but when I just went to there website it said they were closing. *
> 
> As with all things machining the more ridged the better. I do not have the over arm support on my MFB but I have only taken lite cuts with it and have not had a problem. If and when I decide to make something that requires heavier cuts I will look imto making some kind of support for it.
> 
> As for the arbor I can see where having the arbor drive would be needed if using auto feed. If feeding by hand you would stop if you felt or heard something starting to slip. If things are slipping it wouldn't be cutting and if still feeding something would have to give.



Try asking for it at the library

If you provide all the ID numbers, the correct title and so on, they can get somethings from other libraries.
Inter-libary loan


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## CluelessNewB (Apr 14, 2016)

Green Frog said:


> I mistakenly thought that the video package would be a summary of the rebuild process



He did publish a series of 3 articles in "The Home Shop Machinist" magazine on his rebuild.

Part 1: 1997 March-April
Part 2: 1997 May-June
Part 3: 1997 July-August

He also did a series later articles.

Support arm and kick out cam builds: 2001 July-August

Larger dials:   2001 September-October + 2001 November-December

Auxiliary Table: 2002 January-Febbruary


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## Green Frog (Apr 14, 2016)

Thanks, Rich.  That is the exact information I need.  I think we had a subscription at my community college during that time frame, and even if we didn't, I can get them to track them down for me on Inter-Library Loan.


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## JPMacG (Apr 15, 2016)

How can I got copies of these articles?   If I subscribe will I have access to their archives?


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## Green Frog (Apr 15, 2016)

HSM has a complete "index" on line... it's really just a sort of table of contents listing the major articles of each issue.  There are no page numbers or anything else to help you know what is going on, but it's a start, I guess.  Their online store doesn't list issues more than about 10 years or so back, so I don't know whether the issues in question are still available, but it seems not.  This brings forward the obvious question... does anyone here have the 3 issues from 1997 and access to a photocopier so we newbies can get copies of it?  I'd gladly pay for the price of copying and mailing if somebody could perform such a service.  If not, page numbers would help so I could get something shipped via Inter-Library Loan.

Froggie


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## 34_40 (Apr 25, 2016)

Green Frog said:


> This brings forward the obvious question... does anyone here have the 3 issues from 1997 and access to a photocopier so we newbies can get copies of it?  I'd gladly pay for the price of copying and mailing if somebody could perform such a service.  If not, page numbers would help so I could get something shipped via Inter-Library Loan.
> Froggie


 
Times 2!  Is there a way us newbs can get a hand on these...  I'd also gladly pay my share for a copy. 
(thanks Froggie!)


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## wa5cab (Apr 26, 2016)

If someone does come up with the originals, and depending upon the copyright situation, it might be preferable to scan, clean, straighten and convert to PDF.  Then put them in Downloads.


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## CluelessNewB (Apr 26, 2016)

wa5cab said:


> depending upon the copyright situation



It appears the Village Press sells spiral bound copies of Rudy Kouhoupt "Micro Machinist" columns.  I do NOT know if it contains everything.  (See Volume 4 - The Micro Machinist's Legacy) 
https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1671
https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1671


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## 34_40 (Apr 26, 2016)

Thanks for the info!

You're not so Clueless after all.  In fact, quite the opposite!  
Thanks Again.


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