# Buying a house - building a shop.



## macardoso

Hi All,

In a few months, my wife and I are going to be buying our first house. We currently rent a 1300 sq-ft place and will be getting something likely a bit bigger. While we haven't picked the house, I have a good feeling that I will be setting up the shop in the basement again. I current have a space about 15' x 15' but I'd like to expand that a little. I currently have a G0704, a 12x36 lathe, (2) 3x6' workbenches, and a few 3x6' shelves. 

What would be some suggestions for starting a shop from scratch? I'm thinking of putting up walls around the shop in the basement with some sort of sound damping in the walls and ceiling. I'd also like to seal the floor with something that will be easy to clean, won't stain with oil, and won't scratch up too much from chips. First thoughts are the epoxy coating in garages, although I don't know the durability. 

I'd also like to add a clean workbench station for inspection and electronics work. I'd have my soldering stuff and a oscilloscope set up so I'd like to have a way to keep it free from dust and oil.

Just brainstorming right now, but will get serious once the house is purchased.

Mike


----------



## mickri

Make it as big as you can.  That way you have an excuse to buy  more stuff because you will need to fill up your shop.


----------



## BGHansen

I used to have my shop in the basement and invariably tracked chips into the house.  Maybe a clothes hanger at the shop door; clean clothes never go through the door to the shop, vice versa for the shop clothes.

The two annoyances for me in the basement shop was access and ceiling height.  

It wasn't too bad getting my Grizzly mill drill, Atlas 12 x 36 and Jet JVM 8 x 30 mill into the basement.  PITA to get them out.  A walk-out would have been great.  My 4 x 6 band saw was in the garage where I'd cut 12' or 10' stock down to workable sizes.

I also did wood in my basement and had to pre-plan when cutting 4 x 8 sheet goods.  The ceiling was under 8' tall which made it a pain maneuvering stock.

I didn't have too much problem needing to isolate the noise.  None of the metalworking tools came close to my 15" thickness planer.  

And of course, the more space the better.  If you can put up a 30 x 40 x 10' barn next to the house, all the better.


Bruce


----------



## Boswell

I'm sure you will get all sorts of advice on what tools to buy and I am sure that no matter how much space you have, you will (sooner or later) fill it to over 100% capacity as this is the nature of things. I have two suggestions to think about. 
1. Cover the walls with Plywood. This way you can hang stuff where YOU want to, not where the Studs are. Paint with brighter color for "More" light
2. Along the lines of your Clean Workbench. find a way to isolate a small section where you can do dirty jobs, like grinding, sanding etc. I've seen lots of ideas from Walls to shower curtains but the smaller the space, the more important this is. My electronics bench is in a completely different building from my metal shop. 

Looking forward to seeing how you build out your space (once you get it)


----------



## pontiac428

I had my lathe and mill set up in "temp space" in the basement for a couple of years.  It was a comfortable place to work, and everything was close at hand.  Small projects were a treat, big stuff got postponed.  I wanted to say that I, like Bruce, had zero issues with noise.  A lathe and mill aren't that noisy to begin with.  Of course, during this time I never shot sparks down the driveway with an angle grinder or did any head work or fabrication that would be the target of noise complaints.

When you're moved in and set up and decide you need to discuss noise control engineering, let me know.  If nothing else, I can save you from wasting time.


----------



## Winegrower

I am realizing the cheapest way to get a shop is to buy a house with an existing shop.


----------



## middle.road

If this is going to be a long term residence I would shoot for something without stairs. 
Get it at the same level as the home.
Me personally, I am starting to loath stairs. It has to do with age and a couple of odd injuries.
After more than 3 or 4 trips down into our basement here and I opt to put it off until the next day.
If I'm hauling something heavy or awkward downstairs I have to stop and think about it before taking the stairs.
We have (3) steps off the back porch to the shop and even those start to become tedious after several trips during a long day in the shop.
Stairs are easy when young but I would think about it long term.


----------



## NCjeeper

BGHansen said:


> If you can put up a 30 x 40 x 10' barn next to the house, all the better.
> Bruce


This.


----------



## pontiac428

Better make that ceiling height an even 12' so you can fit a lift.  I know, now you'll have to order a taller brass pole, but by the time you're enjoying the show from the stocked bar you won't be worried about it anymore.

Edit:

I almost forgot to add, ask me how I know.


----------



## middle.road

pontiac428 said:


> Better make that ceiling height an even 12' so you can fit a lift.  I know, now you'll have to order a taller brass pole, but by the time you're enjoying the show from the stocked bar you won't be worried about it anymore.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> I almost forgot to add, ask me how I know.


Stocked Bar? I gotta visit the PNW...


----------



## mikey

macardoso said:


> In a few months, my wife and I are going to be buying our first house.



No matter how the shop turns out, CONGRATULATIONS on your first house!!!


----------



## macardoso

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions so far! We are going to be moderately close to Detroit, so yards and lot sizes are not large. I'd probably have a hard time finding space for an outdoor shed/pole barn shop. A 3rd bay of a garage would be great too, but we saw none when we went house hunting last week. I was really hoping to end up ground floor, but I'm thinking that is less and less likely to happen.

I did move my 1000# lathe into a basement once, but it was not fun. I can certainly do it again. I would have liked to buy a knee mill, but that may not happen. For me, having a closed off shop where the cats don't sneak into, with better lighting and storage than my current setup would be awesome. As much time as I spend in the shop I don't make a large volume of parts, just whatever sounds fun to me, so it doesn't need to be the most production focused setup.

I do absolutely zero grinding right now and I intend to keep it that way. I'm actually not bad on a grinder, but it makes such a mess indoors that I stopped and found other ways to do what I want. That might change one day but not now.

I like the plywood on the walls suggestion. That would really make mounting stuff easy! 

Any thoughts on treating a concrete floor? I'd rather not get it all oil stained


----------



## 7milesup

BGHansen said:


> And of course, the more space the better.  If you can put up a 30 x 40 x 10' barn next to the house, all the better.



Too small.  
Ok, how about 36x40.  Too small.
40x40?  Too small.
40x60?  Maybe

In all seriousness, if you (Marcardoso) are going to build a shop, do NOT build it with an 8ft wall height.  If you decide to work with wood at some point, 8ft ceilings suck.  My last shop had 10' ceilings and that was good.  Current one has 11ft ceilings.  I would not go over 12ft though unless you have a specific need for that much height.


----------



## tq60

If stairs insure single row, straight.

Our building is 2 floors, 40 inches stairs.

Over time picked up 3 stair lifts.

First one, not quite long enough and the next, bought as a pair, correct side and fold up bottom.

2 installed, wrong side one has platform, it carries things while the other is for humans on long days.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## macardoso

7milesup said:


> Too small.
> Ok, how about 36x40.  Too small.
> 40x40?  Too small.
> 40x60?  Maybe
> 
> In all seriousness, if you (Marcardoso) are going to build a shop, do NOT build it with an 8ft wall height.  If you decide to work with wood at some point, 8ft ceilings suck.  My last shop had 10' ceilings and that was good.  Current one has 11ft ceilings.  I would not go over 12ft though unless you have a specific need for that much height.



I have not done any wood work other than pulling the miter saw outside to trim up some 2x4s or landscaping lumber. I mostly do small metalworking, electronics design, and would like to get into custom gunsmithing work (dreaming of scratch building a Remington 700 from bar stock and a barrel blank). I have 8' ceilings now, and while I wish they were taller, they don't bother me too much. I don't forsee myself getting into anything that generates a ton of dust because I don't see how that doesn't make a mess of the house over 20 years.


----------



## 7milesup

Floor treatment....
A couple of pictures when I was building my shop last year.  It has a stain applied and then a clear sealer over the top.  I like how it turned out.  My previous shop had an epoxy coating with the flakes added to it and then sealed.  I liked that too, but did not want it in my new shop due to cost, and it also does chip if you are not careful.  The more flakes you add, the more grip it has generally speaking.  
I stained the front entry of the house with a different product than my shop.  I really liked it.  (picture attached)  Super easy to work with and non-caustic.  Water based.  The company was very helpful too.   ---> Sim Stain <---


----------



## macardoso

7milesup said:


> Floor treatment....
> A couple of pictures when I was building my shop last year.  It has a stain applied and then a clear sealer over the top.  I like how it turned out.  My previous shop had an epoxy coating with the flakes added to it and then sealed.  I liked that too, but did not want it in my new shop due to cost, and it also does chip if you are not careful.  The more flakes you add, the more grip it has generally speaking.
> I stained the front entry of the house with a different product than my shop.  I really liked it.  (picture attached)  Super easy to work with and non-caustic.  Water based.  The company was very helpful too.   ---> Sim Stain <---



Wow, that looks sharp! You prefer that over the flaked epoxy? My current rental basement has floor paint which just doesn't hold up to the use. Do you remember roughly what it cost (either total or sq.ft.) to do that?


----------



## pontiac428

That is a nice looking finish.  Makes sense why you chose it.  Epoxy is expensive, with a clear coat finish I was approaching $2/sq. ft. on mine.

The nice thing about the chip epoxy is that you put all of the chips in it when you roll it on.  That way, when you chip the floor moving something around, it doesn't hurt so bad because you know the chips were there in the coat all along.  See what I did there?


----------



## 7milesup

="macardoso, post: 799889, member: 50105"]
Wow, that looks sharp! You prefer that over the flaked epoxy? My current rental basement has floor paint which just doesn't hold up to the use. Do you remember roughly what it cost (either total or sq.ft.) to do that?
[/QUOTE]
They both have advantages and disadvantages.  The epoxy can be less slippery when wet depending on how much flake you put into it.  When I did my first shop floor the process is to put down some epoxy (mine was gray), maybe a 4'x4' square, throw or scatter some of your chips on it until you get the desired look and then do another section.  Repeat the process until the floor is covered.  Make sure you work towards a door.... LOL.   The next day you go back in and put a clear epoxy over the top of that.  I think the clear top coat is optional.  Also, the temp needs to be up there, ideally around 70F+.  Mine was around 55 and it took 3 days to cure.
The stain approach is much easier.  I used ---> THIS STAIN<--- for my new shop. I used leather color for that one. Just roll it on and done. I am afraid I do not remember the exact cost per gallon. I want to say less than $50 a gallon. I then clear coated it with --->TK Bright Cure & Seal<---.  I see that one place had it for $180 for 5 gallons but I know I did not pay anywhere near that much.  Maybe a little over $100 for five gallons. 
For my front entry, which is 10'x21' I used about a gallon and a half of Sim Stain at $50 per gallon.  You can put as much or as little Sim Stain on as you want for effect.  I used a 2 gallon garden sprayer to apply.  Also, as a side note the concrete cannot be sealed before staining.  Some cement contractors use a cure and seal right after they pour the concrete.  You do not want them to do that because your stain will not work unless you go through a lot of effort of acid etching it.
My new go to for staining is that Sim Stain.  You can mix colors and do all sorts of cool stuff with it.  No obnoxios odors either, although the TK Cure & Seal is definitely a "wear your respirator" product.
Hope that helps a little.


----------



## tjb

macardoso said:


> Thanks everyone for all the suggestions so far! We are going to be moderately close to Detroit, so yards and lot sizes are not large. I'd probably have a hard time finding space for an outdoor shed/pole barn shop. A 3rd bay of a garage would be great too, but we saw none when we went house hunting last week. I was really hoping to end up ground floor, but I'm thinking that is less and less likely to happen.
> 
> I did move my 1000# lathe into a basement once, but it was not fun. I can certainly do it again. I would have liked to buy a knee mill, but that may not happen. For me, having a closed off shop where the cats don't sneak into, with better lighting and storage than my current setup would be awesome. As much time as I spend in the shop I don't make a large volume of parts, just whatever sounds fun to me, so it doesn't need to be the most production focused setup.
> 
> I do absolutely zero grinding right now and I intend to keep it that way. I'm actually not bad on a grinder, but it makes such a mess indoors that I stopped and found other ways to do what I want. That might change one day but not now.
> 
> I like the plywood on the walls suggestion. That would really make mounting stuff easy!
> 
> Any thoughts on treating a concrete floor? I'd rather not get it all oil stained


Some observations:

1.  Since you're house-hunting and not constrained to a specific residence, and assuming it will be necessary to set up your shop in a basement, do the best you can to find a home with outside access to the basement.  (Down in our part of the country, that's very common.  However, it may not be in the Detroit area.)  There are loads of stories floating around about the nightmare of trying to move heavy equipment down a staircase.  Sounds like you already have experience with that.

2.  Boswell's suggestion of plywood walls is a good one.  I did that in my shop and several others here have done so, as well.  I would suggest mounting the plywood with screws instead of nails.  That way, if you ever need to get back into the walls (e.g., changing wiring or plumbing, etc.), it's a relatively easy matter.  Also, use real 'plywood' - not particle board or press wood.  I did not paint mine, but if you do, as he suggested brighter is better (I'd opt for white).  Also, at least be cognizant of ventilation and exhaust issues in a basement.  It is definitely doable, but it has its own set of considerations.

3.  As all of us know, the maxim about available space is absolute - "The amount of stuff accumulated is directly proportional to the degree of space available."  That axiom goes for height as well.  You may be fine with 8' ceilings, but if you had ten or twelve feet, you'd figure out something to do with it.  Again, while you're in search mode for a home, if you need a tie-breaker, go for the one that has the higher ceiling in what will become your workshop.  If for no other reason, it provides loads of space for storage.

GOOD LUCK!!!

Regards,
Terry


----------



## 7milesup

I have 5/8" sanded plywood on my walls. I applied clear stain and two coats of lacquer to give the wood some depth and sheen. I also highly recommend screwing it on in case you need to access the wall cavities.
Here's a picture of my very messy shop.


----------



## macardoso

I'm getting shop envy guys


----------



## middle.road

7milesup said:


> I have 5/8" sanded plywood on my walls. I applied clear stain and two coats of lacquer to give the wood some depth and sheen. I also highly recommend screwing it on in case you need to access the wall cavities.
> Here's a picture of my very messy shop.


If that is your definition of 'messy' we need to get you a better dictionary.


----------



## Liljoebrshooter

Just wait until you go look at the price of that nice real plywood.  I  bet it is close to $50 a sheet now.   I was told 1/2" OSB is almost $25. 

Joe


----------



## 7milesup

Liljoebrshooter said:


> Just wait until you go look at the price of that nice real plywood.  I  bet it is close to $50 a sheet now.   I was told 1/2" OSB is almost $25.
> 
> Joe



The price of plywood has about stayed the same.  OSB has shot through the roof although prices have come back down some.  7?16 OSB is about $22 a sheet now, up from $7.50 a sheet when I built my house last year.
1/2" CDX ply is also about $22 a sheet.  1/2" BCX sanded ply is currently $34 a sheet.  
My plywood is 5/8" and I happened to find CDX sanded.  It was actually supposed to be premium sanded but it did not quite make the grade so they downgraded it to CDX.  I paid $15 a sheet for it.


----------



## Cadillac STS

Congrats for moving to your own home.

Strongly consider using a realtor local to where you are moving.  The seller pays them so it costs you nothing.  Tell them what you are looking for and they can find places for you to look at.  The realtor also has access to listings not available to non-realtors often times.  Consider living 15-20 minutes outside the city and maybe get something with a pole barn.  Ask the realtor what is available in the radius you need.  Doesn't hurt to check it out.


----------



## pontiac428

@Cadillac STS is right.  Once a realtor sees that you have documented money available, they should be jumping to get their hands on their cut.  I've had good experiences buying my properties and relied heavily on the networking abilities of "realty advocates" to make things move in my direction.  I think that a buyer saying "I have money and this is what I want" is the siren's call for realtors.  Take advantage of that.


----------



## macardoso

Cadillac STS said:


> Congrats for moving to your own home.
> 
> Strongly consider using a realtor local to where you are moving.  The seller pays them so it costs you nothing.  Tell them what you are looking for and they can find places for you to look at.  The realtor also has access to listings not available to non-realtors often times.  Consider living 15-20 minutes outside the city and maybe get something with a pole barn.  Ask the realtor what is available in the radius you need.  Doesn't hurt to check it out.





pontiac428 said:


> @Cadillac STS is right.  Once a realtor sees that you have documented money available, they should be jumping to get their hands on their cut.  I've had good experiences buying my properties and relied heavily on the networking abilities of "realty advocates" to make things move in my direction.  I think that a buyer saying "I have money and this is what I want" is the siren's call for realtors.  Take advantage of that.



Thanks for the advice guys! We have got all out pre-approvals filled out for the mortgage and are working with a realtor who was tremendously helpful during our first round of showings. We are pretty clos to knowing what we want now and need to wait for the right property to come up. I can't believe how fast everything is selling. Anything really good is gone within 2-3 days of being listed. Certainly no time to give it a long thought through analysis.

My wife will be working in a metropolitan city just outside of Detroit so we are limited in how far out we can go based on her commute. Other things like the type of city, neighborhood, schools, etc. will understandably need to take precedence over how nice of a shop I get to build. Honestly though, anything will be better than what I am doing right now!


----------



## ddickey

7milesup said:


> The price of plywood has about stayed the same.  OSB has shot through the roof although prices have come back down some.  7?16 OSB is about $22 a sheet now, up from $7.50 a sheet when I built my house last year.
> 1/2" CDX ply is also about $22 a sheet.  1/2" BCX sanded ply is currently $34 a sheet.
> My plywood is 5/8" and I happened to find CDX sanded.  It was actually supposed to be premium sanded but it did not quite make the grade so they downgraded it to CDX.  I paid $15 a sheet for it.


Those prices are spot on. I just finished my shop walls, paid $21.5/sheet. Lumber came down nicely the end of October but I saw very little price change in the stores. Lumber just shot up again and is currently at $652/1000 board ft.


----------



## Aaron_W

Look for a basement with some ceiling height. You may think just tall enough so you don't hit your head is fine, but even more than floor space, ceiling height will impact your choice of milling machines. Taller walls also add up to more storage space, more space to decorate etc. An 8 foot tall shelf is 25% more storage than a 6 foot shelf. 

You don't want to know how many 2x4 foot pieces of sheet rock I have due to 6 foot walls...  

An outside door is one saving grace of my shop, only one step to deal with, and I don't have to bring stuff through the house. It is a small door though, very tight for some of the larger machines. Also nice because walking around the house to go inside provides time for chips to fall off and I have immediate access outside for ventilation (just open the door) and dirtier work. I have a workbench set up just outside the door for grinding, as well as an area for welding. 
By square footage I am about equal to a single car garage, but I do envy the ceiling height and large access door of the guys with small garage shops. Then again I think I have basement shop in my genes. Something very comfortable to me about a cramped space in a basement. I had a model bench under the basement stairs as a kid, loved that.

Electrical service is something else to look at particularly if an older home. I'm in an old house which could have been a problem, but it was used as an office for many years so they updated all the electrical in the house including a 175 amp panel.  

I'm a fan of sheet rock for walls, although I can appreciate the screw stuff anywhere ability of plywood. Sheet rock is cheaper and more fire resistant, both of which were considerations for me. 

As far as floor coverings, I went with vinyl flooring. It comes in strips that fit together like Pergo, is cheap and very resilient. It is used in many commercial buildings because it is tough, cheap and looks decent. I think I paid around $1 sq/ft, it was easy to install too. I did mine about 2 years ago, and it looks about the same as when I first put it in, so it is either holding up, or I don't spend enough time in the shop (the second is true so maybe some of both).


----------



## tjb

7milesup said:


> I have 5/8" sanded plywood on my walls. I applied clear stain and two coats of lacquer to give the wood some depth and sheen. I also highly recommend screwing it on in case you need to access the wall cavities.
> Here's a picture of my very messy shop.


Okay, I give up.  Where's the mess?


----------



## Cadillac STS

Just for interest ask the realtor if there is a house on an acre or so with an outbuilding.  They may find something that works with your needs.  Then you have your shop.


----------



## campellob

I had workbenches in both the garage and the basement. I liked it better in the garage. When I did a complete renovation of my house, I needed more options to improve on the plan I already had. I was checking out some options to fix the roof and replace the gutters that had long-needed changes. After some weeks of searching, I still managed to find the right choice for me. My house now looks updated and quite beautiful. In any case, you can find plenty of tactics to fix a painful situation in terms of the house.


----------



## brino

@campellob ,

You joined us 1.5 months ago, but that's your first post......

Welcome to the group!

-brino


----------



## spencerde

Thanks for the information.


----------



## akapella

I had the same idea as you almost three years ago. My partner and I got our first official home together, and we thought it would be a fantastic idea to develop a small shop since she was staying almost all the time at home. It was hard finding a house that fit all of our requirements. However, this Algarve real estate agent did a fantastic job. We haven't opened our store because the quarantine started, but we run an online one that works perfectly as well, so if there is anything I could help you with, I would be more than happy.


----------

