# SMAW/Stick machines - options?



## FlyFishn (Jul 11, 2020)

This isn't a "project" topic, but I didn't see any other sections that dealt with welding so I figured this was the closest. If the mods want it somewhere else feel free to move. 

My question is related to welders out there that do SMAW/stick welding, both AC and both polarities of DC, that are respectable machines. 

My machine is a FCAW/flux core 110v unit that is pretty light duty. I've done some significant welding with it - more than I should. I've run it on 1/4" A36 before and have not had a weld break on me so I suppose that is a good thing.

What I want to be able to do is up to 1/2" A36, with the rare exception of thicker. Multi-pass on the thicker metal isn't a problem so long as I can get adequate access to the joints for it. So the "sweet spot" for what I am after with welding is metal thickness is between 3/16" and 1/2". 

I don't want to limit myself to electrodes, nor just mild steel. So having both DC polarities, also, is a must. 

Another must is single phase power.

A few weeks ago I took a project over to a buddy's shop and used his AC stick machine. With 3/32" 6011 electrodes I turned the amperage down to 90 or so. We started at 150. I had 3/8" and 1/2" plate being welded to 1/4" square tube wall. The arc was just about to blow through the 1/4" so I pulled the amps back so I could get a better weld bead without blowing through the base metal. One root pass and 2 passes on top to fillet. In some areas I laid a cap pass on top to clean up the appearance some, but I don't think that was necessary for strength - the 3 other passes, ugly as they were, penetrated plenty far and had plenty of surface area to stick to.

I do not know what the welder was - but it was AC-only and run between 90-150a. On that diameter/type electrode that worked for the project - and those were the heaviest welds I've ever had to do. With larger diameter electrodes the current would likely need to go up, as to where I am not sure - so that is one wild card. 

The Lincoln AC/DC 225 "tombstone" welder looks like quite a classic, and doesn't take up a whole lot of space. They look quite a bit smaller than my buddy's AC machine. However, they are fairly light duty cycle welders from what I see. Maybe that won't hurt me too much on the lower amperages? 

What are your thoughts? Are there any specs that you think I should have a better idea of? 

Something else I don't quite know the in's and out's of is how the welders do "DC". They obviously have to have a rectifier post-transformer. Do they filter that DC with capacitors? Inductors? Or is it all just "dirty" (unfiltered) DC pulsing above or below 0v at 60hz with the AC cycle, just all in one direction? Or does that depend on the welder? 

I am not looking to get overly detailed - my goal is namely to be able to weld thicker mild steel, and for that AC will do the job. I just don't want to limit myself to it if I can get more bang for my buck in an AC/DC power supply. 

Later down the road I want to be able to do TIG and MIG, but I don't want either as options on a stick power supply. I just want stick, thats all. It will be a good back-up machine if I get a better unit for MIG and TIG later.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 11, 2020)

It sounds like you only want to stick with "old school" technology.  You can most certainly 'get by', but modern day inverters are something to behold in-person.  Small as a lunch-box, packing the same punch as that older tombstone.  As to how they arrive at DC I would not be able to tell you, but what I can tell you is that a quality inverter will lay the smack-down and dance with the devil in the pale moonlight any day.

As for 'needing' AC, unless you do a lot of high-amp stick welding which is how you get arc-blow, there is not too much of a need for AC IMO.  Arc-blow can be tamed & mitigated by expanding your mind and creating different return paths via multiple work clamps.

If you want DC TIG and MIG as well as stick SMAW, look into investing into an HTP ProPulse 220MTS.  On the GMAW side it can weld up to ¼" steel, FCAW-S 3/8", GMAW ¼" aluminum without needing to buy a spoolgun; on the (pedal-capable) TIG side you have DC-only for steels and other DC-polarity metals, and as a stick welder you can run all electrodes except E6010 cellulosic electrodes (technically I can run them, but the machine is not rated to do so).  On all 3 processes you have 200A at your disposal, and all 3 processes are capable of utilizing remote amperage control to control the heat on-the-fly (yes, on the MIG and Stick side as well!), and it is quite the exquisite machine.  It is made in Italy and is top notch.  It is not a production level machine however, it's still a medium-duty/fabrication machine.









Forgot to add, if SMAW is all you need, there is no better DC inverter welder than this one IMO.









Here is one video I made with it:


----------



## Martin W (Jul 11, 2020)

If you want a stick welder, look for a used Miller Thunderbolt AcDc machine. They are pretty much bulletproof. Great hobby machine. Aclands Grainger also branded the same welder only orange.  I’ve had my Miller 20 years and my Aclands machine was given to me. Both weld excellent. Ac and DcI  have welded stainless too with a carbon rod and filler rod.
Cheers
Martin


----------



## Nutfarmer (Jul 11, 2020)

I would stay away from the old ac only buzz box.  They are hard to run to make a decent weld. Most all of my stick welding is  dc with low hydrogen rod. If it's affordable i would look at a tig unit with high frequency ac for welding aluminum too. The tig  units  will run stick just fine. 90% of my welding on the farm is stick . The metal doesn't have to be as clean and a breeze doesn't blow the shield has away.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 11, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. I am not looking to "invest" in a nice welder at the moment. I do have that goal in mind, believe me. It just isn't in the cards. I've been welding stuff at home with the flux core machine since I was in high school. Dad got it for some repairs around the house - lawnmower deck was one project I remember back around the time he got it. The projects I've done with it in the years since have gradually got bigger and bigger - really too big for it, but I've made it work.



General Zod said:


> If you want DC TIG and MIG as well as stick SMAW, look into investing into an HTP ProPulse 220MTS.



Thanks for the info. I'll check it out. The unit I've had my eye on is a Miller XMT-350 Field Pro with polarity reversing. I just don't have $10,000 to set it up for all processes how I'd like.



Martin W said:


> If you want a stick welder, look for a used Miller Thunderbolt AcDc machine. They are pretty much bulletproof.



Good info. Thanks.



Nutfarmer said:


> I would stay away from the old ac only buzz box. They are hard to run to make a decent weld.



I've only run stick a handful of times, so I certainly have some practicing to do. However, I agree with the AC-only. It is a limitation. I am sure I would develop a better preference over time, but AC can still stick steel together for a strong joint. Ultimately that is what matters. Yea, a better looking appearance is nice but that contradicts the Gorilla Weld - strong but ugly. At least having DC, in addition to AC, would expand the capabilities a lot - and that is about as far as I want to take things. The inverter technology looks nice, but again - I'm not looking to dump a lot of money.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 11, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Thanks for the replies. I am not looking to "invest" in a nice welder at the moment. ...... I'm not looking to dump a lot of money. ............The unit I've had my eye on is a Miller XMT-350 Field Pro with polarity reversing.



Seemingly an oxymoron, lol.   sorry, that smiley was just too funny to not use it, lol.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 11, 2020)

No worries. I think you know what I meant. It's one thing to "window shop", its another to get something to get by with...


----------



## General Zod (Jul 11, 2020)

Yup.  It would probably help everybody if you posted your _actual _budget for this welder. I mean, we can sit here and go back-and-forth until the end of days, but in the end if the weight is missing from your wallet, it will be all for nothing and no one gets their time back.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 12, 2020)

The Lincoln AC/DC 225 is around what I am asking about - no specific number, but I want to browse the used market and keep an eye out for something that suits. I am not crazy about a bigger box welders than the tombstones, but I won't rule them out. I am not sure where the Thunderbolts stack up, I haven't looked in to them or how prevalent they are on the used market. 

For example - if I can find a Thunderbolt that does AC and DC for $450 and theres a Lincoln AC 225 for $150 I'd rather get the Thunderbolt because it does DC. 

I just don't know what else is out there that I can add to the watch list - and that was the point of the thread. I just want gorilla welding ability from a stick machine, but spruced up a bit with the ability to run DC. Yeah, that might be leaving a lot on the table for weld quality, even still, but the capability I'd have over my flux core machine would be awesome. That's my goal at the moment. Later down the road I can look in to that XMT-350 set... Or ProPulse.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 12, 2020)

I think you would love an Esab Mini Rogue stick welder, it's only $625 brand spanking new on Ebay.

At only 18lbs, dual 120V/240V voltage operation, capable of running cellulosic electrodes like E6010s, I bet it would blow any tombstone or thunderbolt out of the water if it is anything like I imagine it to be.  Esab makes top notch stuff that's for sure.


----------



## Nutfarmer (Jul 12, 2020)

What I am using is a Lincoln ideal arc 300 that I purchased new in the late 70s  . I have seen them on Craigslist for about the 400 dollar range. If you by used make sure everything works . Older equipment can be hard to find parts for


----------



## General Zod (Jul 12, 2020)

Nutfarmer said:


> Older equipment can be hard to find parts for



Yes, when an older welder breaks down, much time is wasted trying to fix it, and _it_ becomes the project instead of the project that _was _to be done.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Jul 12, 2020)

here may be an answer to having both AC and DC capabilities






the conversion was less than $50


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 12, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> here may be an answer to having both AC and DC capabilities
> 
> the conversion was less than $50



Thanks for posting that. I am familiar with rectifying AC to get DC. That was one of my questions in my first post - the stick machines that have DC capability - do they simply use rectifiers like that or is there any filtering to smooth out the DC? 

If you take an AC signal and run it through a rectifier you will not have clean DC on the output. The power out of the rectifier will pulse at 30hz with a 60hz AC input - the opposite cycle of the voltage will be reversed and stacked with the initial cycle. So your 60hz signal is still there, twice, on top of each other = 30hz pulsed DC. It is DC because the voltage is all either above or below 0. It does not cycle polarities - that is what the rectifier is to correct.

Back in the day, inductors were used to act as some filtering to smooth out the ripple in the rectified DC post-transformers. It would seem to me, in today's day, and even back to the 80's or so, that capacitors would be a better solution to filtering the rectified DC to smooth it out. That is not overly complicated - you just add a capacitor, or series of capacitors, of appropriate values across the positive and negative leads of the rectifier. 

What I don't know is if that filtering would make a significant difference in weld quality. The inner-electronics-geek in me says the DC must be filtered. But I don't know how you would go about capacitance values that would keep the voltage stable under arc. Mind you, pulsed DC (purely rectified) is NOT clean/stable DC. 

I'll dig a bit and see if I can find some schematics for some of the AC/DC stick machines and see what they show. If a DC version of the tombstone welder is just a rectifier and a switch (no filtering) then I might as well just buy an AC machine and do the mod. We'll see.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 12, 2020)

Here is an interesting page I just came across. This guy did a nice job with a DC modification on a Lincoln AC-225. He notes that the rectified DC was not good for aluminum and posted some waveforms. That is what I suspected... dirty DC. Good page, good info, though. 



			Lincoln Electric AC-225 (AC225) AC/DC stick/TIG welder conversion


----------



## ericc (Jul 12, 2020)

If you look in the older manuals, you will there is a choke in the primary circuit. This can be made very simply with an old microwave oven transformer (rewound). It will make the arc more stable.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 13, 2020)

At this point you're not looking for a welder, you're looking for a project to work on, lol


----------



## markba633csi (Jul 13, 2020)

They usually use a large high current iron core choke rather than a capacitor. I believe the choke value is something like 1.5 millihenry
I think you would need a core about 3 times the size of a microwave oven transformer, it's a big fella
The core also has a special non-saturating tapered gap. I read about that somewhere- a Lincoln patent I think it was
-Mark


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 13, 2020)

I have a large choke from an old rack-mount Motorola repeater power supply from the 70's or 80's. I have no use for it... Maybe that would be a good donor. It weighs about 5-6 pounds if I recall correctly.


----------



## NCjeeper (Jul 13, 2020)

For your price range you can get an Everlast 200 amp unit.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/POWERARC-200ST-SMAW-GTAW-Stick-200amp-DC-TIG-welder-by-Everlast-NOVA/202859497534?epid=2256316213&hash=item2f3b5e483e:g:WLMAAOSw64ha50h0


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 13, 2020)

NCjeeper said:


> For your price range you can get an Everlast 200 amp unit.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/POWERARC-200ST-SMAW-GTAW-Stick-200amp-DC-TIG-welder-by-Everlast-NOVA/202859497534?epid=2256316213&hash=item2f3b5e483e:g:WLMAAOSw64ha50h0



Then I look at the other models and find the PowerArc 300 version. At 240 amps and under it has a 100% duty cycle for $620 or so. Though, they are DC-only power supplies. No AC.





__





						PowerArc 300ST | Everlast Generators
					

Need pure stick welding power and need lots of it in a small package? Need a DC TIG welder for those projects that require portability and power?  No problem.




					www.everlastgenerators.com


----------



## NCjeeper (Jul 13, 2020)

With that unit you can run 6010 rods too so there really isn't a need to have a machine with ac.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 13, 2020)

Looking at the HTP lineup - their Inverarc 200 is in the same ballpark of equipment type. Yet they want $1500 for it. Looking at the duty cycles it goes like this:
115a = 100%
130a = 60%
200a = 10%

Thats a light-duty machine for $1500. 

In comparison, the Everlast PowerArc 300 is $620 and duty cycles (both stick and tig, same ratings) look like this:
300a = 60%
240a = 100%

I'll have to dig in to the specs a bit to see what is so noteworthy of the HTP - but for more than double the cost there better be something spectacular in it. 

The price of the Everlast units really does make me second guess what is on the used market. Though, I am not sure about the "technology" aspect of the new units. There is something more rugged about the old analog stuff...


----------



## f350ca (Jul 13, 2020)

Unless you need the portability of an inverter welder, its hard to beat the reliability of a transformer welder. Unless you grossly exceed the duty rating they run forever. They use a bridge rectifier, so you get 120 positive cycles per second, you don't notice any pulsing. 

Greg


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 14, 2020)

f350ca said:


> Unless you need the portability of an inverter welder, its hard to beat the reliability of a transformer welder. Unless you grossly exceed the duty rating they run forever. They use a bridge rectifier, so you get 120 positive cycles per second, you don't notice any pulsing.
> 
> Greg



Good points. 

As to the 120 cycles - you are correct, sir. My head was swimming in trig with phase angles in my earlier post - bold added:


FlyFishn said:


> If you take an AC signal and run it through a rectifier you will not have clean DC on the output. The power out of the rectifier will pulse at 30hz with a 60hz AC input - the opposite cycle of the voltage will be reversed and stacked with the initial cycle. *So your 60hz signal is still there, twice, on top of each other = 30hz pulsed DC.* It is DC because the voltage is all either above or below 0. It does not cycle polarities - that is what the rectifier is to correct.



My theory was explained correctly but the phase angles got mis-labeled as the frequency cutting in half, not doubling. The peaks go from 1 cycle every 360 degrees to 1 pulse (no more cycle in the reverse polarity) every 180 degrees = the 1/2 of where my head went as it came out spelled as frequency. 

Its all good. Now back to the regularly scheduled program...


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 14, 2020)

On the subject of Everlast machines:

The PowerArc 210STL looks promising. It is a lighter machine than the 300, having the following duty cycles (on 240v):
200a = 35%
160a = 60%
130a = 100%

Price is $450. 




__





						PowerArc 210STL - Stick Welders | Everlast Generators
					

Take a close look. You'll see that inverter-based PowerARC 210STL is designed with the Professional in mind.  But, if you happened to just judge by the price alone, you'd guess that this is a hobby welder.  But you'd be wrong.




					www.everlastgenerators.com
				




The bonuses - it can run a foot pedal with TIG, has E6010 capability, and is dual-voltage capable (not a big deal, it would be on 240). There are some other details in there like VRD and an anti-stick function for stuck electrodes.

I am not sure if there is a current comparison between AC and DC, but the project I did last round was started at 150a and I dropped the current to 90a to prevent blowing through thinner metal. If I stuck to the thicker metal I'd likely have kept running at 150. That was AC with 6011 electrodes, 3/32". I would like to go thicker on the electrodes so as to be able to lay down more filler per run. So I imagine that is where extra current will come in - thicker electrodes will need more current, comparatively. If DC takes noticeably less current, say 130a DC would be like 150a AC, then maybe there is more head room in a 200a machine than I am thinking at the moment.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 14, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Looking at the HTP lineup - their Inverarc 200 is in the same ballpark of equipment type. Yet they want $1500 for it. Looking at the duty cycles it goes like this:
> 115a = 100%
> 130a = 60%
> 200a = 10%
> ...



Trust me, it _is_ a spectacular machine with respect to the quality of the arc. Those duty cycle ratings are for 104°F ambient temperatures. Unless you live in the truly hotter states like me (South Texas), you'll never trip the duty cycle if you're only doing 100-125A with 1/8" electrodes in ~80°F ambient temps. You'd have to weld constantly and non-stop, changing electrodes back-to-back with no chipping of flux, weld-prep, to get it to thermal-out. A highly unlikely scenario. The special quality is not anywhere in the specs. The electronics and the quality of the power supply/inverter inside the machine is absolute state-of-the-art as per my conversation with an HTP tech consultant, and he has two top-quality Lincoln engine-drives (vantage 400 and another one, can't remember), so he isn't just all "fluff". It's just one of those things that have to be experienced in person to understand.  As for everlast machines, I would suspect that some of their duty cycle numbers might be inflated, but I am not presenting that as fact, just opinion, after having seen pictures/videos of the insides.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 14, 2020)

General Zod said:


> The special quality is not anywhere in the specs. The electronics and the quality of the power supply/inverter inside the machine is absolute state-of-the-art as per my conversation with an HTP tech consultant, and he has two top-quality Lincoln engine-drives (vantage 400 and another one, can't remember), so he isn't just all "fluff". It's just one of those things that have to be experienced in person to understand.
> ---------
> As for everlast machines, I would suspect that some of their duty cycle numbers might be inflated, but I am not presenting that as fact, just opinion, after having seen pictures/videos of the insides.



Thanks for the detail. As to the duty cycles - I imagine you are probably on track there with the inflation thought. 

I would be curious what happens in those machines if you surpass the duty cycle. Do they self-protect? 

The flux core machine I have is transformer-based and the time I know I overloaded it the transformer blew smoke. I suspect that was the paper insulation and potting epoxy among the windings. I'll check it out today - I suspect the enamel on the magnet wire burnt and there are some internal shorts = where the tingles I get from the work clamp come from when its plugged in. 

My point on the duty cycle though is, at least on the cheap machines, there isn't any protection from over-load conditions. I would imagine with all the technology in inverters that there would be some protection. 

Though, if there is protection that could be about as frustrating as GFCI breakers tripping - cutting off the power routinely in the middle of your project. I would hope what ever duty cycle a machine has would be able to keep up with the kind of welding I do. I guess only time would tell that, though.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 14, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> I would be curious what happens in those machines if you surpass the duty cycle. Do they self-protect?
> 
> I would imagine with all the technology in inverters that there would be some protection.



"Those" meaning everlast?  Your guess is as good as mine, as I don't own any.  You'd think any and all inverters would self-protect and shut down, but not so.  I was welding with my Millermatic 211 inverter back in 2018.  Full-bore on ¼" - 3/8" steel, thinking the same thing.  Nope.  I kept welding until it shut down, but when it did, it was because the main board let the magic smoke out.  I'm sure the yellow over-temp light came on, but I didn't see it, so when it shut down, it was already too late.  Luckily Milller covered the board replacement under warranty.  1 week later I had a HTP Pro Pulse 300 on my truck and never looked back (except to sell the Miller 211 inverter). 

The HTP MIG units do indeed have both over-current and thermal shutdown when things go astray.  If you try to weld with more current that it is rated for at maximum for too long, the LCD displays over-current warning in Red, and the output is reduced so as to not nuke the internals.  Some find it annoying because that over-current protection doesn't shut off the output altogether, but rather it drops the WFS to a safe value (which ruins the weld parameters since WFS needs to be within a certain range for the Volts).  I can see it from their perspective, but I'd rather have an ugly inch or two of weld to grind out and re-do, than have a $2000+ doorstop.  On the thermal protection from sheer exceeding duty cycle, the entire output is shut off altogether.

Of course for stick welders it's simpler because you can't alter the current (once you set it) the way you can with MIGs where you can alter it after you set the WFS by shortening your CTWD.  For inverter stick welders, it's either current or no current; at least that's how it is on mine.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 16, 2020)

I think I'm going to get the Everlast Powerarc 210STL. The idea is to have it as a stick machine from the start. Then add TIG later.

Thinking about it - at the price point - as a stick machine out-of-the-box it is the same price of a used Lincoln AC/DC 225 (tombstone) locally, has a 100% duty cycle up to 130 amps, has variable arc force and variable hot start (not auto or fixed value on/off). Plus it can be upgraded to run TIG with a torch and gas for thinner metal (thinner than you can go with stick, for sure, as to how thin realistically I don't know yet). So for stick alone it packs a lot of features for the price - much more so than the Lincoln AC/DC 225. I think that is worth a shot to try it.

I'll post back later. If anyone else is curious about them - there are a few videos on it and the 200STI (similar) on YouTube. I don't think anything I would have to offer on usability/features/first impressions would be anything not already covered in what one can already find online, but ya never know.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 17, 2020)

Good luck with it.  An acquaintance bought the 350EXT just recently about 2 months ago.  It already blew the main board.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 17, 2020)

General Zod said:


> Good luck with it.  An acquaintance bought the 350EXT just recently about 2 months ago.  It already blew the main board.




What service was it being used with? What was he doing with it when it blew? Process/current?

Thanks for chiming in.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 17, 2020)

Not sure what service, but he is a professional welder in Maryland with his own shop.  Likely 240V single phase service.  He was doing 330A+  AC welding Aluminum.  Yup, I just looked at what he posted and he said it was on a 50A breaker, so I'm 99% sure it was on a standard 240V AC 1-Φ input power.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 20, 2020)

Finding more options before I order.

In another thread elsewhere I got a suggestion of the Primeweld TIG225. It looks like a decent machine with a lot of adjustments (and does AC).








						TIG225X AC/DC TIG Welder With Pulse
					

The TIG225X AC/DC TIG Welder features the versatility to suit the needs of hobbyists and professional welders alike. Order yours online at PrimeWeld.




					primeweld.com
				




The AHP AphaTIG 201XP looks pretty good also. Looking at the pricing online it is around $100 less than the outfit with the Everlast 210STL with the TIG options as the AHP comes with them out of the gate for the list price of the unit. This one also does AC - so that is a big bonus plus the adjustments in the frequencies (AC and pulsed DC).





						AHP AlphaTIG 201XD | AHP Tools Inc.
					

As an AC/DC inverter TIG welder, the Alpha TIG 201XD delivers pro-level features in an economically minded package that out performs major competitors' models nearest to our price. For comparison, the Alpha TIG 201XD range of features includes fully adjustable AC frequency and AC balance...




					ahpwelds.com


----------



## General Zod (Jul 20, 2020)

Now you just need a MIG to round out the features, lol.


----------



## DavidR8 (Jul 20, 2020)

I was looking for a welder this past year.
Looked at Everlast but the Primeweld beat it on features for dollars.
AHP was/is experiencing a seemingly high number of board failures on both the 200 and the 201 of recent.
The Primeweld customer service is above an beyond in my opinion.
I finally settled on the Primeweld and am completely happy with it.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 20, 2020)

General Zod said:


> Now you just need a MIG to round out the features, lol.



I'd love to have a MIG. At some point in time I will. 

Looking at what/how I have welded in the past what I need is a capable stick machine. That will give me a ton of capability that I've never had. In looking at machines - with TIG being so readily available on a stick power supply, to me, it makes so much more sense to combine the two. For smaller and/or more visually important welds TIG will get me there. Even with MIG - on the small end of the spectrum I don't think MIG is a good option. So blending the two processes - Stick and TIG - I have the whole range of capability of welding from the heaviest stuff I'll do down to the lightest I could possibly think of - in one machine. 

Yeah, MIG is great for general steel fab. I won't argue that. However, I can't justify it right now.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 20, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I was looking for a welder this past year.
> Looked at Everlast but the Primeweld beat it on features for dollars.
> AHP was/is experiencing a seemingly high number of board failures on both the 200 and the 201 of recent.
> The Primeweld customer service is above an beyond in my opinion.
> I finally settled on the Primeweld and am completely happy with it.



Thank you for your input.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 20, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Yeah, MIG is great for general steel fab. I won't argue that. However, I can't justify it right now.



and now you can use it for general aluminum fab, thanks to modern-day inverters.

3/16", 176A.  No spool gun.  Dedicated aluminum gun with carbon-graphite liner, pulsed-spray arc transfer. User-controlled hot-start to eliminate cold-starts, and user-defined slope-down to minimize crater-cracks toward the end (I should have used a little more on that part).


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 21, 2020)

General Zod said:


> and now you can use it for general aluminum fab, thanks to modern-day inverters.
> 
> 3/16", 176A.  No spool gun.  Dedicated aluminum gun with carbon-graphite liner, pulsed-spray arc transfer. User-controlled hot-start to eliminate cold-starts, and user-defined slope-down to minimize crater-cracks toward the end (I should have used a little more on that part).



What did you weld that with? What machine/set up?


----------



## General Zod (Jul 21, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> What did you weld that with? What machine/set up?



HTP Pro Pulse 220 MTS.  035 diameter 4043 wire, 20lb spool loaded up inside the machine.  Set-up is as described in the previous post.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 21, 2020)

I misspoke, it was actually my HTP Pro Pulse 200, not 220.  They look identical,   (and for MIG they are identical, as the 220 superseded the 200)

This here plus Argon is the whole "setup".  On aluminum, it's rated for up to 0.312" thickness (depending on the wire selection and synergic program chosen).  LED gooseneck lamp is not included, I added that, lol.








Oh and it goes down to 0.032" on aluminum as well.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 21, 2020)

I'm thinking realistically the smartest thing I could do is have an "old school" transformer-based stick machine. 

The reason being that they are rugged and don't have complicated circuitry - rather, bare bones basic analog stuff. So if we ever had the zombie apocalypse, an EMP blast, or what ever disaster it would be there ready to go for what ever needed done. Or, in case an inverter machine decided to take a dump there would be a way to keep going, albeit without being as pleasing of a result. 

That leads me back to the Lincoln AC/DC 225. 

I did find a really nifty device called an "Arc Pig" (link below). It turns an AC machine in to a high-frequency capable TIG machine. The down-side is with the power supply having fixed amperage you can't feather the current as you go. The other down-side is it, alone, is $350. By the time you throw in there a decent TIG torch, gas reg, hose, cables, and the parts to make the modification tie in to a welder you're looking at about $600. 

So why not get a dedicated TIG machine? On top of that - TIG machines do stick also. So that would give me 2 stick machines and what I need is stick. Redundancy on what I need is a very good thing. 

That line of thought really doesn't change the discussion a whole lot, other than it dilutes the necessity of the stick functionality somewhat and puts the focus on TIG. 

With TIG being the focus - AC would be a must so I can do aluminum, as opposed to before potentially having a stick machine capable of doing basic DC TIG also. 

That takes out the Everlast PowerArc 210STL from the equation as it does not do AC. 

The Primeweld TIG 225x and AHP AlphaTIG 201xd are still contenders. 

As for Everlast options now - I am not sure I like the lower end TIG machines of theirs that do AC. Those are the PowerTig 185DV and PowerTig 200DV. They don't have much flexibility in waveforms for TIG and have auto settings for hot start, not adjustable. The PowerTig 255EXT and PowerTig 210EXT have a lot more flexibility it looks like, with the 255 more so than the 210. But the price is getting way up there...

Lots to think about.


----------



## DavidR8 (Jul 21, 2020)

Adding more to think about I have confirmed with a number of folks that the Primeweld 225 will run 6010. 

This is an example of 6013. By a 10 year old. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cathead (Jul 22, 2020)

It's hard to beat an old AC welder with copper windings, the transformer about the size of a salt block.
Mine doesn't even have a fan in it.  I added a bridge rectifier setup to it with a home made inductor(filtering)
so I can run on DC if I want to.  Reversing the cables gives either polarity and the current is controlled
using the plug in taps on the transformer.  I welded on a new cutting edge on my Bobcat with no
problems using DC checking periodically to see of the diodes or inductor were getting hot.  They
were warm but still could hold my hand on them when I was done.  
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
   The bridge rectifier is on the left mounted to an aluminum heat sink and affixed to the inductor on the right.
I machined tapered brass fittings(plugs and sockets) so it would be easy to reverse polarity.   The white piece
is a chunk of plastic table top(UHMW or similar) used as an insulator to facilitate mounting the parts.  My only
expense was for the 400 ampere bridge rectifier I bought on E-bay for $50.  The inductor was a transformer
in it's previous life and rewound with heavy insulated wire.  The DC adapter setup weighs about 60 pounds
and has a handle on top if I want to set it out of the way and use the welder on AC.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 22, 2020)

cathead said:


> It's hard to beat an old AC welder



Bring it!  I'll put up my little lunch box against any tombstone.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 22, 2020)

General Zod said:


> cathead said:
> 
> 
> > It's hard to beat an old AC welder
> ...



A good friend of mine sails on Lake Erie. We were talking about sailing one year and he said he would put his sailboat in a race against any speed boat on the lake in a trip to Cleveland, OH (from Port Clinton).

How is a sailboat going to have any chance of beating a speed boat you think?

Easy. The speed boat will run out of fuel. A speed boat won't go with no fuel. At which point it runs out it will be dead in the water.

As for welders - when things go down - how do you "raise the sails" to keep on keepin' on? Thats where the old school stuff comes in to play.

Speaking of which... there are a couple inexpensive Lincolns around here. One is a round top Idealarc 250 - AC/DC version - that looks to be in decent shape for its age. I'll let ya know what I come up with there.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 22, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> A good friend of mine sails on Lake Erie. We were talking about sailing one year and he said he would put his sailboat in a race against any speed boat on the lake in a trip to Cleveland, OH (from Port Clinton).
> 
> How is a sailboat going to have any chance of beating a speed boat you think?
> 
> ...



I get your point, and reading between the lines, you're already grouping all the new & modern welders into one unreliable category the likes of the $119-Shipped welders you can get on Ebay/Amazon (which are indeed throwaways).  Rest assured the power supply alone in my lunchbox welder is worth more than some _entire _welding machines in the $500-$1000 range. So in this case, my sails are are made from carbon-fibre skin-sandwiched Kevlar Honeycomb, bolted onto masts made of titanium-nickel-niobium alloy. These sails be strong.


----------



## gr8legs (Jul 22, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Later down the road I want to be able to do TIG and MIG, but I don't want either as options on a stick power supply. I just want stick, thats all. It will be a good back-up machine if I get a better unit for MIG and TIG later.



If that's the case then immediately go look at the Lincoln IdealArc 250's you mention above. A bulletproof stick-only machine that your grandchildren will pass on to their heirs. 

I learned to stick weld using one of these 250's at our local community college 40 years ago; when I audited the course to refresh my skills this year they had replaced the IdealArcs with 3-way 'modern' machines and usually at least one of them in the lab was 'out of service' every week.

I have an IdealArc 250 in my home shop and it's my 'go-to' welder for most projects.  I also have a Syncrowave 180 perched on the top of it, a Miller MIG machine under the workbench and a suitcase Lincoln flux core hiding under another bench. The stick machine is still first choice cor most projects. The only downsides to the Idealarc are a bigger footprint and it's heavy. Get cables long enough to reach where you're working, then add other machines as needed.

Check out this thread to see what others have done:









						Show Us your Welders!
					

I thought it might be fun to see everyones welding set-ups. The little Cricket is set up for stainless. The 210 can do both steel and aluminum. Here are my welders and bench. Now! let's see YOURS!




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




Have fun!

Stu


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 22, 2020)

gr8legs said:


> If that's the case then immediately go look at the Lincoln IdealArc 250's you mention above. A bulletproof stick-only machine that your grandchildren will pass on to their heirs.



Working out the details now.. For the price its still a cool old machine. Case is in great shape (surface rust, no dings/bends), cables, clamp, stinger are all in great shape. I don't see much scratching on the info tags/plates. Only thing is the guy can't test it as it won't plug in anywhere. If it ends up needing some work I'm not opposed to that at the price. That was one of the theories I had is they are robust and easy to fix from the get-go.


----------



## frugalguido (Jul 22, 2020)

IMHO just get a HTP and be done with it, they are great machines. I think that they will even let you try them out.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 22, 2020)

frugalguido said:


> IMHO just get a HTP and be done with it, they are great machines. I think that they will even let you try them out.



I don't think they are up his alley.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 22, 2020)

Well as soon as I get my truck back I'll head over and get the tombstone. Sounds like it might be some "fun" to get it loaded in the back of the truck - 400lbs+ of welder and cart up to a 1 ton truck bed/tailgate. I have a hoist idea with a winch to to do the hard part - just hope I can lift it high enough to clear the tailgate and have enough space above to hoist from.


----------



## Cr23484 (Jul 22, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Well as soon as I get my truck back I'll head over and get the tombstone. Sounds like it might be some "fun" to get it loaded in the back of the truck - 400lbs+ of welder and cart up to a 1 ton truck bed/tailgate. I have a hoist idea with a winch to to do the hard part - just hope I can lift it high enough to clear the tailgate and have enough space above to hoist from.


I have a used Miller Dialarc HF which I use for stick welding. 
220 single phase on a 100 amp breaker
Has a nice arc , no problem with 1/2” steel
Ac/dc
Cost me 700. With everything for stick and tig
On heavy duty dolly because it’s a bit heavy. 
Runs 1/4” 6010 electrodes very nicely. 
J


----------



## Tim9 (Jul 23, 2020)

120 volt Mig is great for sheet metal but really doesn’t have the penetration for heavier welds. Stick welders have the penetration and are more suited for heavier welds. And yet then, if you have a 200 amp mig you can get good penetration, especially if you dial it in and go with pure CO2
For a reasonably priced 200 amp arch/stick welder, Northern Tools  has the Reconditioned  Klutch Klutch sti200 269.00

I‘m not sure why they only have reconditioned ones now. I purchased a new one 4 years ago and absolutely love this little welder. It’s inverted based so weighs only 20 pounds. I see Northern Tools also has a Century Lincoln sells an almost identical model without tig capabilities for 360.00 and then Lincoln has basically the same looking machine , with Tig & stick , but dialed down to 155 amps for 1200.00
It looks pretty damned close to the Klutch welder. But a lot more expensive.
Im at a loss as to why the brand new  Klutch isn’t available anymore. Maybe it was a test for Lincoln. Who knows.? Or maybe just a logistics issue with CV19. Lots of logistics issues these days because of our trade wars with China. Not really a trade war per say...but we’re getting there. Tariffs and expulsion of the Houston Chinese Embassy because of spying. Anyway....the Klutch has a good warranty and I love this welder. It kicks butt. Klutch and it’s a Tig and stick welder ...200 amps too.

By the way. Unless you’ve had a pro show you how to TIG without a foot pedal and without being able to adjust the current up or down....I question how well an Arc-Pig is going to work. I know I was looking at those....and remember some good reviews. But that was on Welding Web site. And those guys are pros. I tried Tig without a foot pedal. It’s not easy. Doable yes. Easy....NO


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 23, 2020)

All good thoughts. 

With respect to TIG - I would rather get a dedicated machine. If it is going to cost me around $600 to retro-fit an AC machine to do quasi-TIG then why not put that $600 in to a better stand-alone TIG machine - and have another stick machine also?

Since I have the stick part covered with the Idealarc (and heavy stick also - I do see that it goes to 300 amps on AC) there isn't any need for stick on a 2nd machine, most certainly not heavy stick. It would be nice to have, though. And where I want the TIG ability is on the lighter end of the spectrum and welding aluminum. I'm sure if I had TIG I would use it on some heavier structural stuff, but maybe up to 3/16", possibly occasionally 1/4" (more likely a lighter part welded to a thicker part that would be that 3/16-1/4").


----------



## Tim9 (Jul 23, 2020)

Totally agree Flyfishin. The Klutch has Tig Capabilities but not much to dial it in. I also have a Tweco Fabricator but it’s only a 120 volt machine. Even with being able to dial volts and amps in on the Tweco, without a foot pedal or finger  based adjuster of amps....I have a lot of trouble with TIG. TIG welding is an art form. Most guys can learn it but it takes practice.
   That said...really makes it hard to Tig if you can‘t quickly adjust the Amps. Have to ramp up and then down once you get the puddle going.
After reading WeldingWeb.com forums....almost everyone says the same. You’re not going to get a good puddle going without the foot pedal.
   The guys using the Arch-Pig Mostly appear to be professional welders who are using diesel powered Bobcat style welders on the back of their truck. It just helps them get the arch going. It’s basically some capacitors.  Sure, these guys have mastered it but they have been welding every day since they were 15 years old. That’s a huge difference than a hobby guy.  If you want to be able to lay down Tig welds like you see on YouTube, get a dedicated machine. Make sure you have a foot pedal.
fwiw, with a Bobcat Diesel welder, I believe you dial in the specs....and then start welding. The throttle is part of the specs. Some guys doing TiG on Bobcats have rigged up choke cables to their Tig cable so they can kind of adjust the output.  But...none of us are in that camp. These guys can weld anything and everything and just know their craft.

By the way. Other than mig aluminum.....doing TIG Aluminum absolutely must be AC voltage for Tig. It has a cleaning affect. Lots of great YouTube videos on all this stuff. Welding Tips with Jody is big on TiG.
Chucky - (something??) is also real good. But jumping to Ac Dc Tig will put you over 1000.00 and you’re going to need 100 %Argon tank. For some of the stainless...I think they use a helium mix.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 23, 2020)

Thanks for all the input - lots of stuff there in your posts @Tim9. 

I agree with the foot pedal on TIG. One of the courses I took in college was 1 quarter dedicated to metallurgy and welding. We started with forging and went through every mainstream process up to TIG (did not do gas welding, but we did gas heating/bending, cutting, and brazing). That course was the only period of time I've TIG welded - and it was with a foot pedal. 

If I could have spent more time on any process in that class it would have been TIG, followed by stick. I recall we ran several different types of rods and one of the rods (don't recall the code) had to be pre-heated in an oven to work. We ran the rods cold and left out and right out of the oven to see the difference. What I don't recall is if the oven trick was just to dry out the rods/keep the coating from absorbing moisture from the air alone (I know that was part of it), or if the rod temperature actually was important. It seems to me that the temperature of the rod was important (like the filler metal and coating had to be held at a constant 400 degrees or something to get the coating to the right state to work right when burned?) Either way, I do recall the difference in arc performance and weld-ability between a cold rod and one out of the oven was night and day different. 

In any event, yea - lots to brush up on thats for sure. Without the ability to do it - how does one brush up? For now I'll be set on stick - but TIG is a whole other ball game. There isn't a more controllable and precise process. But it takes the right gear to do it. 

On the subject of the Arc Pig and capacitors - I am curious what that circuit looks like. There are guys that are setting up transformer machines with thyristors controlled with a pot (think foot switch here - the rocking of the foot switch rotates the pot) that, in turn, varies the output of the transformer to give some control to the arc current. I would be curious to study that circuitry some more. 

Another thought I had is that of inverter technology. Take the output of a transformer machine, rectify it, filter it, then supply that DC to a controlled set of IGBT's. The input to the IGBT's can be set up pretty easy. If you want a triangle wave just make a circuit that provides the triangle wave as a proper input control signal level to the IGBT's then you have triangle wave welding output. Same thing for pulsed DC - what pulse width and frequency do you want? Make a control circuit that will set that input signal in motion, send it to the IGBT's, and you have a pulsed DC output. That's getting pretty deep - but I'm sure that kind of circuitry can be built. And if I build it then I am not relying on a company's trade-marked design and control over how the circuit works, therefore if something burns out I can fix it, or if something burns out and the parts are no longer available, I can find a substitute set of parts and/or make a design change to accommodate a new part that has different characteristics than what might be available. Breaking it down to control boards for different functions makes that easier - one function won't kill the whole set up. 

Lots to think about.


----------



## Tim9 (Jul 24, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Thanks for all the input - lots of stuff there in your posts @Tim9.
> 
> I agree with the foot pedal on TIG. One of the courses I took in college was 1 quarter dedicated to metallurgy and welding. We started with forging and went through every mainstream process up to TIG (did not do gas welding, but we did gas heating/bending, cutting, and brazing). That course was the only period of time I've TIG welded - and it was with a foot pedal.
> 
> ...



personally, I was very suspicious of inverter based machines. I too was sold on transformers because they are rock solid. But they are heavy. And it’s a pain to even roll out my Miller 211 mig. My Klutch was purchased after I had my mig. And I absolutely love the bead and penetration I get from the miller mig. It’s a real nice machine.
That said....like I was saying I purchased the Klutch because I wanted a stick machine and I was apprehensive about inverters. Lots of horror stories on Amazon reviews of off brand generics from China that are junk.

but, from reviews I learned that the Klutch appears to be a copied Italian branded welder....made in China. I wanted a machine I could bring back to a store if it died. I wanted a machine that had a big box store backing it up. And I couldn’t justify cost of a Miller or Lincoln.

Anyway, the Klutch came with a 3 year warranty when I purchased mine. When it arrived it said only a one year warranty so I called Northern Tool...showed them the web site description claiming a 3 year....and they did adjust my service agreement. It was all for nothing because the machine has worked flawlessly.
I’d love to take apart the cover of that Lincoln, just to see if it’s basically the same as the Klutch inside. Wouldn’t surprise me.

anyway, an inverter machine from a company which backs it up and you don’t have to mail it back is the way to go. I really like how easy it is to strike an arch using the inverter machine. It easy.


----------



## Tim9 (Jul 24, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> A good friend of mine sails on Lake Erie. We were talking about sailing one year and he said he would put his sailboat in a race against any speed boat on the lake in a trip to Cleveland, OH (from Port Clinton).
> 
> How is a sailboat going to have any chance of beating a speed boat you think?
> 
> ...


Just on a side note. I went down this road. And I was an avid reader on Welding Web. I really wanted to learn it better. So...long story short, the Liberal Arts Program of the local Loyola University was moving and selling all of their older tools.  I was just getting started and I purchased an old Keller power hacksaw and a massive Airco Bumblebee 250 welder. The price was right, but it’s a damned beast. Must be a few hundred pounds of copper inside. Anyway, I had plans  for building a bigger workshop but they never evolved. Still have it in storage covered with a tarp. Damned thing must weigh 550 pounds. It’s huge. 
oh well.....what more can I say, I like tools. It’s a sickness


----------



## Cr23484 (Jul 24, 2020)

Buying older or new machines and tools is very addictive, I find.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 24, 2020)

Tim9 said:


> oh well.....what more can I say, I like tools. It’s a sickness



Well if thats the case I'm one sick rat bastard. Whoops. Did I just say that? Nevermind. 

As to the heavy machine in storage - yea. I hear ya. One of these days I want to have a lot of space also. It just isn't in the cards for a while. That doesn't detract from having projects come up to keep me busy. I have one thats been collecting dust for 4 years. At the time the project materialized i didn't have access to a heavy enough welding machine. An acquaintance that I knew at the time was in to auto repair and fab stuff and I tried to get his help with the project but his idea of "help" was to take an existing part and modify it instead of build one from the ground up. That wasn't going to work. Life continued to get in the way and things that had been lined up for the project just collected dust. I am trying to change that. And to do it I need a stick machine. However, when I have welded in the past there is usually a scenario that comes up where I need a heavier machine than what I've been using - I just use what I have as hot as it goes and make do. Some things I am OK with that on, other things - I might tack the parts with it to set things up then get over to somewhere that has better equipment. 

One can never have too many tools and machines.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 25, 2020)

Moving day. Later tonight, but I'll be out all day before.

Lets just say I am glad I worked on logistics YESTERDAY. While I was out picking up the truck I stopped by my storage place and got my tailgate ramps. I haven't used them in years, and quite frankly they are hard to use. I prefer hanging stuff of a hoist than rolling in and out (unless its something like a lawnmower or ATV).

When you put the ramps close together and roll up one of the edges of the ramp they tend not to be stable.

I didn't even get to setting up the joist to test the alignment of "things" (rope, tailgate, cap window, machine positioning, etc, etc) because I only have 42" to the bottom of the window frame. There isn't enough space to get the welder on to the tailgate without interference with the tipped out window. I don't want to risk blowing out that window again (already been there, done that - and the window isn't replaceable - you have to buy the window and frame assembly as a complete unit).

So what I came up with  was putting wood blocks between the 2 ramps and using some aluminum mast pipe sections on the under side. On top I use ratchet straps to cinch down over the top with the pipes underneath. This does 2 things - it locks the plane of the ramps to the plane of the pipes, and 2. it keeps the ramps butted up tight against the wood blocks. The down side is the ratchet straps are on the ramp surface and may get damaged when the machine rolls over them - especially if the strap is between the cut out tread patterns and the wheels (grip patterns = sharp metal edges).

Pulling power is from my trusty Superwinch Terra 45SR in the bed. It won't break a sweat. When I pull 99% of loads I use a 2:1 block/tackle set up - more so for precision and slower speed - even though the single line pull is heavy. Under some pulls it decreases the current draw also and that can be quite handy.

If I get in to the pull and there are problems with it then I can back out of it and go back to the hoist set up. The way this would work is I would block the bottom of the ramps to bring them up. This would bring the top of the ramp curve to a flatter "deck", if you will, with respect to the plane of the bed and tailgate. The machine would be lifted and left to hang from the hoist, then I would back the truck up to it as far as I could, then set up the ramp platform underneath, then lower on to the platform, and roll in to the truck. That will work - and quite frankly I think that is the safest/most stable solution (the ramps are best with self-propelled things, not winched things) but the time and effort involved in setting up the hoist is done it will be quite a long time. I left the ramps strapped together in the bed so all I have to do is drop them, put the winch in place, and get power to the winch. The hoist requires moving and setting up 2 ladders, a lot of ratchet straps, and all the blocks for raising the ramps in addition to the ramps in the configuration they are already in. Big difference. But we have options.

If plan A doesn't work, go to plan B. If that doesn't work... rethink things on-site and come up with a plan C.

What I need is a trailer. But what I don't have is a place to store it. One of these days.


----------



## Tim9 (Jul 26, 2020)

Yep....we’re similar there. I’ve got two homemade ramps that I use to load stuff in my little 93 Nissan truck. Bigger stuff near my storage usually gets loaded with a forklift at a business down the street. Unloaded with a 2-1/2 ton chain winch. but most lighter items get rolled up and down the ramps. I’ve got the truck set up with a hand-crank boat winch. It works so I can usually work by myself but it is slow going. Ramps are now heavy as hell. Started as treated 2 x 6’s but have now been beefed up with 1/4” angle iron. Anyway....reading your post. It’s like I could have written it describing my situation.


----------



## Weldingrod1 (Jul 26, 2020)

I converted a transformer welder to foot current control. I just phase controlled the input. Worked really well!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 26, 2020)

The machine made the trek. I haven't unloaded it. It is a heavy machine, but did not seem quite as heavy as I anticipated. More later.


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 27, 2020)

I started another thread over on WeldingWeb with a lot more pictures. As stated in the thread - I am going to give it a once-over with the electrical side and ensure it is in OK shape before I plug it in. Once I open it up it only makes sense to clean it up also. Later on I might restore it at least with a new paint job.

I didn't get the machine to restore it and have it as a collectors item. It is intended to be a heavier welding machine for the time being and a back-up welder once I can upgrade equipment/processes here. 






						1966 Round Top Idealarc 250
					

I decided to make another thread specific to my welder progress.     After some researching on stick welders I decided it was a very smart idea to have an old-school transformer-based machine, at the very least as a back-up machine. My last project requiring heavier welds than what I could do...



					weldingweb.com


----------



## gr8legs (Jul 28, 2020)

At $100 you made a killer deal on the Lincoln 250 IdealArc (presuming it works - and these machines are almost bulletproof).

I think I paid $300+ for mine 15 years ago in only slightly better cosmetic condition.

Excellent stick welder, I'm sure you will be very happy with it. The only quirk is that you turn the dial clockwise to reduce the arc current setting. Takes a bit of getting used to but no biggie.

Good buy ! 

Stu


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 28, 2020)

@gr8legs Stu - thanks for the comments. I am looking at the wiring here and I think I wired my plug wrong. Its a NMEA 10-50. One of the pins on the connector is labeled "White" which would be neutral. The schematic of the machine shows 2 hots and "ground". Although neutral and ground are bonded together in the service entrance panel, what is the technically correct wiring for the plug for the welder? Ground?


----------



## gr8legs (Jul 28, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> Stu - thanks for the comments. I am looking at the wiring here and I think I wired my plug wrong. Its a NMEA 10-50. One of the pins on the connector is labeled "White" which would be neutral. The schematic of the machine shows 2 hots and "ground". Although neutral and ground are bonded together in the service entrance panel, what is the technically correct wiring for the plug for the welder? Ground?



The NEMA 10-50 is an 'old style' dryer or range plug for appliances that use the neutral (white) for chassis ground - your welder uses 220 single phase that the 'hot' leads go to the two angled connections. It's probably fine as it is with neutral to chassis ground. If you are doing a complete restoration and upgrade you'd want a plug/receptacle that are 220 Volt 50 Amp single phase with ground.

There's also the option of retrofitting a code-compliant 4-wire cable and connector with two hots (black and red) , a neutral (white) and a green ground but I don't think the welder needs the neutral at all. If that is the case then a NEMA 6-50 would work. Check the chart at https://www.stayonline.com/product-resources/nema-straight-blade-reference-chart.asp and find what is affordable and readily available and is at least 220 volt 50 Amp rated.  I would just stay with the NEMA 10-50 which is rated for 220 V 50 A using the neutral as chassis ground. Dirt cheap and readily available.

To use what you have (or verify it is correct) see https://www.ehow.com/how_7718190_wire-nema-1050r.html

Enjoy!


----------



## FlyFishn (Jul 28, 2020)

Thanks for the reply. I switched the connector around so ground was the 3ord pin. The cable on the welder goes to chassis ground so that did make more sense. I have a 120v outlet next to the one for the welder also so I took neutral just to the 120v outlet and took the white wire from the 10-50, cut it off, and spliced it in to ground. All works well. The wiring isn't permanent, its just a temporary set up/extension cord. 

I like the 4 pin cable/connector idea also. Like you say, though, there isn't anywhere for the neutral to go on the welder end. It would just make splitting off 120v at the large connector a lot easier - which I do and is why I put the 120v outlet on the end of the extension cord also. It makes it a lot easier to run tools like grinders, saws, and drills as opposed to running 2 cords.


----------



## FlyFishn (Sep 3, 2020)

Its been awhile since I posted here. Just a quick update:








You can find more details - including some videos of voltage settings, lots more photos, etc - on the thread I have on welding web:





						1966 Round Top Idealarc 250
					

I decided to make another thread specific to my welder progress.     After some researching on stick welders I decided it was a very smart idea to have an old-school transformer-based machine, at the very least as a back-up machine. My last project requiring heavier welds than what I could do...



					weldingweb.com
				




The machine works great. I haven't made sense of the "high" DC voltage, but the peaks on AC are up there so it doesn't sound too far out of whack - the RMS AC is pretty close to spec (spec is 70v OCV @ 230v in, my line voltage is 244 and I'm at 74v RMS OCV = close enough for me). It runs fine with amperages between 30-175 so far. I don't have a reason to go any higher, and in fact I'd say the majority of my welding will be under 100 judging by how 1/8" rods run. I have 5/32" 6011's that can get up higher in amperage, but I don't think the material I will weld will dictate the higher end of the spectrum for those rods - probably still down towards the lower end. 60-70 amps with 1/8" 6010 and 6011 does well with some practice welding. Higher amperages to 80 or so are just cookin'. 

I still have a bit of work to do with the machine. I want to clean up some of the paint. However, I also want to make a cable rack of some kind. I am contemplating what I want to design the rack to then build it and at that point look in to the repainting of the welder panels. We'll see. At the moment the machine is very usable as-is.


----------



## gr8legs (Sep 3, 2020)

FlyFishn said:


> At the moment the machine is very usable as-is.


Yes, and the cleanup and new paint job will make it much happier.

These are great machines - you can 'fine tune' the weld current to get a perfect arc and it will still be working when your grandchildren are learning to weld with it.

Good job!

Just a thought: Since you have had the machine opened up and know how to get to the guts it would be really neat to go to a 4-wire cord and then add a 120 volt duplex receptacle to one of the side panels or the front panel so grinder power comes right from the welder. If I ever open mine up that will be on the 'to do list' now that I've seen how your machine is assembled.

Stu


----------



## FlyFishn (Sep 3, 2020)

gr8legs said:


> Just a thought: Since you have had the machine opened up and know how to get to the guts it would be really neat to go to a 4-wire cord and then add a 120 volt duplex receptacle to one of the side panels or the front panel so grinder power comes right from the welder.



I've thought about that. The outlet and "extension cord" that feed the welder is 4 wire that carries neutral. The short lead to the welder is 3. I do have a 120v outlet there.

The cabling is temporary, this isn't an installed set up at the moment. I am using 10g romex. The large 3 pin (NMEA 10-50) is for the welder. The small receptacle above it is the 120v. Then below is an L14-30 twist lock. The L14-30's are part of a "project" that includes a better cable for use in the garage here, as well as a grab-n'-go generator cabling system - which is mostly what the 3x duplex box is for, but could be used in the garage.





As to adding a 120v outlet to the machine directly - I think I'll pass on that. I have seen people that have done that, as well as welded or bolted cable racks to it. I don't want to deface the character of the original Round Top doing that. I am looking at making a cable rack - but it won't mount with holes or welding anywhere on the original welder. If anything, I may use the joint between the cart and welder to sandwich the mount for the rack. We'll see. The rack would be a candidate for an outlet, but I am not sure.



gr8legs said:


> If I ever open mine up that will be on the 'to do list' now that I've seen how your machine is assembled.



Just a note - from what I know the transformer stack on some generations of these machines were welded in, not bolted like mine. I believe mine is an "early" generation - it has the AC in the middle on the polarity switch. I am not sure what changes may have been made prior to my generation. I seem to recall selenium plate rectifiers on earlier models back to the 40's, but between that era of rectifier (in industry in general, not these specific round top machines) and the era of Round Top I have there may have been some more changes. The polarity switch was changed somewhere between '72 and '74 I believe - and some, if not all, of those later machines (at least for a generation of them - several years maybe) had the welded in transformers.

If that is the case - you will be able to pull off all the panels on the sides, but you won't be able to split the transformer from the base.

The base on mine, if you go back through the restoration thread and find the pictures, was a bit rough with rust. Needless to say, it took a lot of work.

That was the nature of this beast from the get-go - I took it one step at a time and worked through things as I came up to them. I'm glad I tackled it, but it did take a lot of work and time to do it. There is a difference between "getting running", "cleaning up", and "restoring". Even after all the work I did I am still not sure you'd call what I did a true "restoration" as I left the original guts in there and still haven't painted some of the straps. And I didn't use paint coded as Lincoln Red, just something pretty close (Rust Oleum Farm & Fleet in their Massey Ferguson Red color, which I dare say did turn out very very nice and I'm more than happy with the color).


----------

