# Oil for the 618



## Pr3ssure (Jun 12, 2019)

So I'm wondering two things. One, what is SAE 20 oil? The manual for the 618 says to oil with SAE 20. Read somewhere that 5w-20 is almost the same but can I just get SAE 20 still? Dont think I've ever heard of just 20 viscosity oil. Two, regarding the bearings. Two of the oil spots are the bearings, says oil daily. After I clean the bearings what should I do? Grease them up or just use oil. I'm not sure about mixing oil and grease. Also, how should I clean the bearings? I'm thinking either soap and warm water or degreaser then soap and water. Don't want the degreaser to hurt the bearings though so I'm not sure.


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 12, 2019)

Ok, just found out that the 3 in 1 oil is SAE 20. Do they sell it in bigger containers though?


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## benmychree (Jun 12, 2019)

One might wonder what the subject is all about; what the machine is, what type bearings they are etc.  SAE 20 sounds like an engine oil, not a machine oil.  If you are talking about a precision grinding spindle, whether a plain or ball bearing, the oil should be pretty light, and designated as a spindle oil; "3 in one" is heavier than most spindle oils.


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 12, 2019)

It's the atlas 618, it has roller bearings. Thought the machine would be apparent since it's in the atlas section. New to the forum though. SAE 20 is what the manual says to oil every part of the lathe with. The 3 in 1 in the blue bottle says sae 20 motor oil and has a picture of an electric motor. I really just need to know how to clean the bearings and if the 20 comes in more than 4oz bottles.


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 12, 2019)

Also as far as I can tell the bearings are all steel. No nylon or anything. They are timken brand roller bearings.


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## Rooster (Jun 12, 2019)

Greetings, i also have an Atlas 618. I use the 3-1 motor oil for the bearings and counter shaft, works great. As far as bigger size i don't know, but a little goes a long way. The bearings should have Gits oilers with flip up tops, there should be some felt inside so just a drop or two of oil is enough.
You should not have to clean the bearings if they have the dust covers in place.


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 12, 2019)

I'm restoring my lathe. I have it completely taken apart, should have mentioned that. I'm stripping the paint and removing rust, repainting and changing any broken parts. It was free to me, my dad found it being thrown away up in NY. Only thing missing was the tailstock and the change gears. It worked alright before I stripped it down but it definitely needed some TLC. I've also just figured out how to take apart the 3 jaw chuck. Wondering if I should grease or oil the inside of it. I've got it in the electrolysis tank now to get the little bit of rust from the inside.


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## Rooster (Jun 12, 2019)

That's exactly what i did 2 years ago. I bought new Timken bearings, they only cost around $80. Can. from Motion Industries. If you have not already you should download a manual. You should use oil for the chuck, grease and swarf don't get along. Be gentle with the spindle, that's the most important part of the lathe.


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 12, 2019)

I haven't tried getting the bearing off from the right side, when looking at the front of the lathe. I have a bunch of timken bearings, brand new. I'm pretty sure I have one that is the same as the right one. Neither really need replacing but if I can get it off I will replace that one.


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## chippermat (Jun 13, 2019)

The fear is the detergents in modern motor oil will gum up the works. Use non-detergent oil.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

When I got my first Atlas lathe I spent WAY too much time trying to find SAE 20 oil; what was called for in the manual. An older (much more experienced) gentleman suggested 20W non detergent motor oil. I have been using it for years and all is great. I had spent hours cross referencing this and that with charts and SAE comparisons. I found details that nobody needs to know only to learn this. Todays oils are better at lubricating, cooling and protecting than the oils of the past. I use the most expensive synthetic gear oil that I can find (thinking the more costly, the better; I spent $35) on the gear train of my Atlas 10F, and that seems to have served me well. I use SAE 20 Non Detergent motor oil in all the oil cups and I use Way Oil on the bed. All that said, something or anything as a lubricant is better than nothing. One time though I did part out a headstock of an Atlas 10F that appeared to have never been oiled and the bearings were in remarkably good condition. Just food for thought. Don’t worry too much about finding 20 weight. 


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 13, 2019)

One thing I read said the detergent shouldn't have any positive or negative effects, although of I can find detergent less oil I'll get that. Otherwise I'll just stock up on some 3-in-1 in the blue bottle. It's only like $2-3.

I've never heard of way oil though. I'll look into it, I mainly just want to get it running well and keep it in good condition. Might have been free but it's a good habit to keep up on maintenance on expensive machines. I strive to one day be able to afford new machining equipment.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jun 13, 2019)

According to a web site I have been prowling around on, a good *way* oil is a mixture of hydraulic fluid and chainsaw bar oil. Doesn't sound too good to me but seems to be perfectly plausable. The mix varies depending on the desired viscosity. 

I can't find a link right now, probably stumble across it later. Try around 35% bar oil to start, adjust up or down as needed. 

I've been using Marvel Mystery Oil for years, with good results. It may not be the "bestest", but it works well, with no wear. But then, I'm meticulous to keep the machines clean. Been using it on air tools too. My nailers are ecstatic. The others don't get used enough to say either way, but there's no rust for what that's worth.

Bill Hudson​


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 13, 2019)

When it comes to putting oil on the bed, so you just wipe it down with a rag or should I just pour it on and move the carriage to get it all over.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

I squirt a bit with an Eagle 66 oil can in front of the carriage and move it over the oil. It spreads itself. 


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 13, 2019)

Sounds simple enough.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

But look for way oil. If you start mixing hydraulic fluid etc you might have issues and health problems. I fly for a living and some of our hydraulic fluid is not good for you. I live just outside if Hamilton Ontario in Canada and there is shop that sells bulk oil and fluids. I go in with a couple of mason jars every year or so and pick up Horizontal Way oil, for the bed of the lathe and mill table, Vertical Way oil (thicker/more viscous) for the knee of the mill and a couple litres of SAE 20 non detergent motor oil for all the lube points. About $20 and I’m good for another year. I am generally if the mindset that over oiling is better than under oiling. 


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## wa5cab (Jun 13, 2019)

First, SAE 20 in this application means the same thing as 20 weight non-detergent.  The metric equivalent is ISO 68.  Second, multi-viscosity oil made mainly for the automotive industry wouldn't be a problem if it were only multi-viscosity.  The problem is that some of the additives that are in all automotive grades are hydrophilic, meaning that they scavenge moisture from the atmosphere.  This is good for internal combustion engines because the temperature inside varies from ambient to nearly 200 F.  When running, the moisture that condensed out onto the interior and was absorbed by the appropriate additive(s) is evaporated and goes out  the exhaust.  That doesn't happen in a machine tool.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

But given that an Atlas Lathe is not an internal combustion engine drawing in a ridiculous amount of air and moisture does it make a noteworthy difference wether the additives bind to moisture? I’m guessing that if my lathe had the same milage and air moving through it daily as my Explorer your point might make a difference.... but in 4 years of running with non detergent motor oil, dressed up as 20 weight I have seen no appreciable wear. What you are quoting though reminds me if the ridiculous amount of research I did to arrive at the reality that in fact “it really doesn’t matter”. 

Just my opinion of course.....


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## chippermat (Jun 13, 2019)

I read somewhere that over time particular additives can collect and gum up and cause problems, I imagine particularly in the sintered (porous) bronze bushings. I haven't personally witnessed that though.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

With any luck the bearing play will decrease and my lathe will become more accurate..... lol. 


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## wa5cab (Jun 13, 2019)

Moderatemixed said:


> But given that an Atlas Lathe is not an internal combustion engine drawing in a ridiculous amount of air and moisture does it make a noteworthy difference wether the additives bind to moisture? I’m guessing that if my lathe had the same milage and air moving through it daily as my Explorer your point might make a difference.... but in 4 years of running with non detergent motor oil, dressed up as 20 weight I have seen no appreciable wear. What you are quoting though reminds me if the ridiculous amount of research I did to arrive at the reality that in fact “it really doesn’t matter”.
> 
> Just my opinion of course.....
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but you completely misunderstood what I wrote.  If your lathe came up to an internal temperature of 170 to 200 F and had as much air moving through it as your Explorer, you would want to use maybe 20W50 high detergent oil.  But it doesn't.  It is pretty much like your explorer when it is sitting in the garage (if you garage hasn't like mine been converted to part electronics and part machine shop).  Not when it is running down the highway.  And tomorrow, it won't go running down the highway, blowing the moisture out the exhaust.  It'll be sitting wherever it sits absorbing more moisture out of the atmosphere.  Most likely, the detergents don't hurt anything, but there is really nothing that they can do as there is no carbon for them to scrub.  So they are simply a waste of money.


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## wa5cab (Jun 13, 2019)

Also, there seems to be some misunderstanding of terms here.  SAE 20 and 20 Weight Motor Oil are one and the same.  Back in the day, you could buy 20 weight at automotive parts stores.  You can still buy SAE 10 and SAE 30 non-detergent but for some reason, at least in the Houston area, none of the parts stores carry the SAE 20 anymore.  Ace Hardware I think still carries 3-In-1 SAE 20 as well as the more common SAE 10, but it is pretty expensive in the small cans that it comes in.


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 13, 2019)

I found some Mobil something or other ISO68 by the gallon for $32, says they have it at Walmart and it's detergent free and the same as SAE 20. I wanna make sure that it's detergent free though. Doubt I'd need a gallon, a quart would be fine for $11


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

20W is still available up here in Canada, but it is getting more scarce. I purchased 10, 1 quart (liter) bottles so I have what I believe to be a reasonable attempt at a lifetime supply. Thanks for the clarification on your point. Cheers. 


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## NortonDommi (Jun 13, 2019)

ISO 46 or 68 Hydraulic oil will be fine.  Available everywhere.  http://www.doolittleoil.com/faq/viscosity-sae-iso-or-agma
Don't use engine oils on machinery as they have additives that are not needed and some that are not wanted.


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 13, 2019)

So I'm looking into the world of way oil and getting a bit confused. Saw that Mobil had a good one but changed it and then came out with one similar to the original named something else. See where this rabbit hole leads me.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

I’m home on Sunday. I’ll shoot you a pic of the stuff I have. I’m not sure where you are located but the company I used is Crescent Oil in Hamilton Ontario Canada. 136 Cannon St. West. 905 527 2432 or 1 800 263 6483. Give them a call and see if they can give you the name/brand of the horizontal and vertical way oil respectively. We’re all in this together. Cheers. 


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 13, 2019)

Gotcha, worst case I'm sure they ship to the US. I found some options on google in a quick search but it was all 5 gallons or a few ounces. Also a lot of stuff on horizontal drilling came up, like drilling for oil in the earth.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

Worst case I’ll go get the stuff for you and ship it to you..... 


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## Pr3ssure (Jun 13, 2019)

Sounds like a plan.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

Like I said, I take mason jars and fill up a couple at a time.... no minimum, it’s great. 


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 13, 2019)

Send me a pm and we’ll set it up. And we’ll get you some 20W too, lol. 


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## WCraig (Jun 13, 2019)

Pr3ssure said:


> Gotcha, worst case I'm sure they ship to the US. I found some options on google in a quick search but it was all 5 gallons or a few ounces. Also a lot of stuff on horizontal drilling came up, like drilling for oil in the earth.


One option in the USA is BlueChip Machine Shop.  They have a section on lubricants that includes spindle oil and way oil:



			Lubricants – Blue Chip Machine Shop
		


I bought my way oil from KBC Tools in Canada.  Their selection of way oils (10 to 50 weight) is at:





__





						Results Page 1 :: KBC Tools & Machinery
					






					www.kbctools.ca
				




I got:




Hope this helps,

Craig


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## wa5cab (Jun 14, 2019)

Mobile DTE Oil, Heavy-Medium, Circulating Oil, ISO 68 is what I have actually used for the past decade or so.  Last time that I bought it was from Enco for about $22 US per gallon.  Enco no longer exists and I'm sure the cost today will be higher..  Tractor Supply had SAE 20 ND for a while but I understand that they have discontinued it.  But the Mobile DTE works as well.  And should always be available from someone.

I forgot to comment on the spindle bearings.  One thing that you DO NOT want to do is to put grease on them during assembly.  What will eventually happen is that the grease will harden.  Over time and depending upon where it got slung during the first few minutes of operation, grease could block the oil from getting to the rollers.  There is no way to tell that without pulling the spindle.  So don't put grease on the spindle bearings.

At this point, someone sometimes mentions that automotive wheel bearings are tapered roller and  use grease.  But wheel bearings are easy to service compared to spindle bearings.  Plus they are run looser than spindle bearings.  And finally, the reason that they run grease instead of oil is that with oil, they soon leak.  Which is an issue on vehicles but not on lathes.


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## CluelessNewB (Jun 14, 2019)

MOBIL Mobil DTE 25 ISO 46  about $35 Gallon, you can order this from Walmart for store pickup, (use for SAE 20).  You can also find light weight hydraulic fluid at places like Tractor Supply for even less but typically 2 gallon jugs are the smallest size.    

Air compressor oil is also non-detergent but is typically SAE 30 so it will be slightly thicker.   

Mobil Vactra 2 Way Oil also about $35 Gallon.  

A gallon of each will last you a long long time!


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## wa5cab (Jun 14, 2019)

Actually, either one should be acceptable.  ISO 68 in all of the tables that I have falls near the high end of SAE 20.  And ISO 46 is near the low end.  So technically, both cross to SAE 20.


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## Moderatemixed (Jun 14, 2019)

wa5cab said:


> Actually, either one should be acceptable. ISO 68 in all of the tables that I have falls near the high end of SAE 20. And ISO 46 is near the low end. So technically, both cross to SAE 20.



Any chance you’d post that table..... 


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## CluelessNewB (Jun 15, 2019)

Here is a table I found on the web:


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## wa5cab (Jun 16, 2019)

That chart plus two others are now in Downloads as a .ZIP file.  I uploaded it yesterday but got sidetracked before I could post the info.  In Downloads, first click on where it says to Click Here 1st and then scroll down and open (click on) Lubrication & Lubricants .


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