# New early 1900's Cincinnati Shaper Project



## madmodifier (Oct 21, 2017)

Picked up a "new" shaper today. I need to make the top ways, not sure what the term is. The way bars that retain the ram. Apparently the story is they got used by a farmer for steel. Is the best idea to get a couple bars of ground flat stock? How many oil cups should they have? There are no data plates or serial numbers on the machine that I could find. Unfortunately there is a broken hand wheel that probably cannot be replaced. I have searched around the interwebs but there is not much information out there. In fact ebay has an 18" version of this machine and that is the first picture that I have been able to find of a Cincinnati with a square door.


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## brino (Oct 21, 2017)

Wow, you don't shy away from a big project do you?

There's a Cincinnati shaper brochure here:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/cincinnati-shaper-brochure-pdf.2098/
no date on the document, but they don't look as old as yours....the few pictures that show the back have roundish doors.

You've probably already seen these, but there are a few documents here:
http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=2218&tab=3

Good luck, I am already "watching" this thread.

-brino


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## madmodifier (Oct 21, 2017)

Guess not Brino. I have reviewed all the vintage machinery materials.


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## Uglydog (Oct 22, 2017)

Mad,
This is great!! 
Seriously!!

To bad about the missing parts.
While likely different, my lil' 16" Whipp is of about the same vintage and style. If you'd like you can look at mine for ideas on fabing your parts.


Daryl
MN


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## f350ca (Oct 22, 2017)

Thats going to be a nice machine Ben. With the amount of information out there on the web its amazing the holes that exist. I have an 18 inch Peerless that was made in Ontario not sure when. Have searched and found a few other people that have them but no information about them. There was a company by the same name that made powered hacksaws in the states but no affiliation.
On the bars my first thought is that they should be made of cast iron. I'd be afraid steel would gall. You can get continuous cast bar stock. Durabar is one company that makes it.
Mine has an oiler between each of the hold down bolts.
Hope you post your rebuild.
Greg


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## Uglydog (Oct 22, 2017)

f350ca said:


> On the bars my first thought is that they should be made of cast iron. I'd be afraid steel would gall. You can get continuous cast bar stock. Durabar is one company that makes it. Mine has an oiler between each of the hold down bolts.



Agreed.
Durabar is a good option.

Daryl
MN


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## core-oil (Oct 22, 2017)

Stupidity seems to be universal the world over, Using the guide strips from a good machine to obtain a portion of flat stock is beyond stupid,  This story matches a genius I know , Who on recieving a nice lathe from me Complete with a turned plug , with the mandrel nose thread & register as well. ,      A lot of nice accurate work,It was designed to save time when turning backplates and screw on fixtures for special tasks  (note the plug had nice knurled grip, & was marked Mandrel nose plug for boring & screwing fixtures, A lot of passed in making it)  Anyway our man needed a washer so he set it up in the saw and cut it to the length he required -- Vandalism, Sacrilage, Ignorance, Arrogance ? Take your pick!


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## madmodifier (Oct 22, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> Mad,
> This is great!!
> Seriously!!
> 
> ...


 Thanks Daryl! Hopefully I will be able to take you up on that offer soon.


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## madmodifier (Oct 22, 2017)

core-oil said:


> Stupidity seems to be universal the world over, Using the guide strips from a good machine to obtain a portion of flat stock is beyond stupid,  This story matches a genius I know , Who on recieving a nice lathe from me Complete with a turned plug , with the mandrel nose thread & register as well. ,      A lot of nice accurate work,It was designed to save time when turning backplates and screw on fixtures for special tasks  (note the plug had nice knurled grip, & was marked Mandrel nose plug for boring & screwing fixtures, A lot of passed in making it)  Anyway our man needed a washer so he set it up in the saw and cut it to the length he required -- Vandalism, Sacrilage, Ignorance, Arrogance ? Take your pick!



Yikes. Things that people do to save from going to the steel yard.


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## madmodifier (Oct 22, 2017)

f350ca said:


> Thats going to be a nice machine Ben. With the amount of information out there on the web its amazing the holes that exist. I have an 18 inch Peerless that was made in Ontario not sure when. Have searched and found a few other people that have them but no information about them. There was a company by the same name that made powered hacksaws in the states but no affiliation.
> On the bars my first thought is that they should be made of cast iron. I'd be afraid steel would gall. You can get continuous cast bar stock. Durabar is one company that makes it.
> Mine has an oiler between each of the hold down bolts.
> Hope you post your rebuild.
> Greg



Thanks for the info Greg. Good thoughts on the cast "dura" bar. I suppose then I could do a quick mill and scrape it flat. At least on the way side.


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## tertiaryjim (Oct 23, 2017)

My 7" Rhodes shaper uses hardened steel bars. A file skates on them.
Jim


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## madmodifier (Nov 9, 2017)

Making some progress on the cleanup.


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## madmodifier (Nov 10, 2017)

f350ca said:


> Thats going to be a nice machine Ben. With the amount of information out there on the web its amazing the holes that exist. I have an 18 inch Peerless that was made in Ontario not sure when. Have searched and found a few other people that have them but no information about them. There was a company by the same name that made powered hacksaws in the states but no affiliation.
> On the bars my first thought is that they should be made of cast iron. I'd be afraid steel would gall. You can get continuous cast bar stock. Durabar is one company that makes it.
> Mine has an oiler between each of the hold down bolts.
> Hope you post your rebuild.
> Greg




Any idea on the tensile strength needed on the material? I was thinking that 65k would be fine. I am having a heck of a time finding this stuff locally.


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## benmychree (Nov 10, 2017)

Ductile iron would be overkill, plain old cast iron is fine, 40,000 psi tensile.


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## madmodifier (Nov 10, 2017)

That would be great benmychree if I could find it. It seems dura-bar is my option around here and even that is hard to find and very expensive. The two quotes I have gotten so far are more then I paid for the machine. Not sure what I am going to do now.


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## benmychree (Nov 10, 2017)

Have you looked in McMaster Carr?


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## f350ca (Nov 10, 2017)

Wonder if you could salvage them out of an old lathe bed. Nothing else comes to mind that would be long enough. Maybe you could use thin strips of cast as wear bars with a steel cap to support them.

Greg


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## madmodifier (Nov 10, 2017)

benmychree said:


> Have you looked in McMaster Carr?


From what I could see 2ft was the longest they sell. I need 34".


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## core-oil (Nov 10, 2017)

The best option I can think off is to approach an iron foundry, and see if they will cast you a couple of bars,  Ordinary soft grey iron is typically good machine tool gib strip material,   May the fleas of a thousand camels infect the rear end of the idiot who took off the original gib strips, Remember to allow for machining allowance, (On the Bars not the idiots rear end!)


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## Silverbullet (Nov 11, 2017)

Why not steel with brass wear plates on the moving areas. That's how I'd fix it . And I'd put at least three oil cups or make a pressure type oiler system. I love running tiny copper lines they do a real great job and look good .


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## core-oil (Nov 11, 2017)

Silver Bullet,
You have given me another bright idea, Why not make nice steel gib plates Bolt down and inject Moglice underneath them, That is frequently done in machine tool building, It has good wear & accuracy properties and it would be a simple way out of the problem.


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## madmodifier (Nov 11, 2017)

I could do Moglice or bond some turcite to steel gibs. Brass is another idea I have considered. Honestly the friction coefficient of mild steel an cast is not too terrible. I have found a wood lathe bed locally that might be a good doner for the gibs. At least half of them. The seller thinks the bed is 3/8" or 1/2" thick(waiting for conformation), 3" wide and 54" long. I could then pair that with 1/2" of steel. The gib plates for the table are 7/8" so that is about what I am shooting for.


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## madmodifier (Nov 12, 2017)

Today's progress, degrease and dissemble. The weasel snot is strong with this one. I have found a few gears that could be remade but I think I should be able to get it running as is. This is assuming that the motor is any good. I ohmed it out and I do not think it has any dead shorts. I need to buy some wire and a plug and make up a whip to connect to the 3 phase.


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## brino (Nov 12, 2017)

Great progress! 
-brino


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## Scruffy (Nov 15, 2017)

I have a square door 16 inch cinn. Back geared shaper. Built around 1905, I think.
Thanks ron


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## madmodifier (Nov 15, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> I have a square door 16 inch cinn. Back geared shaper. Built around 1905, I think.
> Thanks ron


Do you have a couple pictures your could share?


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## Scruffy (Nov 15, 2017)

Just tell what you want pics of and i’ll Take  them.  I have copies of some old manuals I can send you.
I emailed cinn. Shaper and they said they never made the machine I have.  They lost their records in a fire around 1920 . Theirs a guy on metal working fun that has one about 50 serial numbers newer than mine.  They never made it either.
Thanks scruffy ron
Look at the way the old fella convert it from a Lin shaft machine


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## Scruffy (Nov 15, 2017)

Here’s some pics I found
Thanks scruffy Ron


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## 4GSR (Nov 19, 2017)

madmodifier said:


> I could do Moglice or bond some turcite to steel gibs. Brass is another idea I have considered. Honestly the friction coefficient of mild steel an cast is not too terrible. I have found a wood lathe bed locally that might be a good doner for the gibs. At least half of them. The seller thinks the bed is 3/8" or 1/2" thick(waiting for conformation), 3" wide and 54" long. I could then pair that with 1/2" of steel. The gib plates for the table are 7/8" so that is about what I am shooting for.



Most of the older machine tools that had hold downs for things like this were made of cast iron.  There's no reason in the world for not making them out of 1018 cold finish rectangular steel bar.  Material needs to be reasonably straight, not necessarily surface plate straight, eyeball straight would work.  Run it steel against cast iron.  I wouldn't worry about getting fancy with brass or bronze wear pad or Moglice, or any other kind of non-metallic way bearing material.  Just keep it well lubricated.  Remember, this shaper will never have to work hard for rest of your life or it's life!

Ken

BTW: Nice find!  I want a shaper.


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## madmodifier (Nov 19, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Most of the older machine tools that had hold downs for things like this were made of cast iron.  There's no reason in the world for not making them out of 1018 cold finish rectangular steel bar.  Material needs to be reasonably straight, not necessarily surface plate straight, eyeball straight would work.  Run it steel against cast iron.  I wouldn't worry about getting fancy with brass or bronze wear pad or Moglice, or any other kind of non-metallic way bearing material.  Just keep it well lubricated.  Remember, this shaper will never have to work hard for rest of your life or it's life!
> 
> Ken
> 
> BTW: Nice find!  I want a shaper.



Thanks for that info! I did end up ordering grey (cast) iron this week. Little more then steel but I need scraping practice anyways


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## Scruffy (Nov 19, 2017)

What’s the easiest way to tell cast iron from steel? I basically have the same shaper and they look like steel to me.
Thanks ron


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## Scruffy (Nov 20, 2017)

Well even though it’s midnight, I had to go look. A file cuts into it pretty easy.
The ones on my 16 inch are 3 inches wide by 1 inch thick at the side that holds the ram down. Where it bolts to the machine it looks to be about 7/8 ths. I’f you want better measurements i’ll Do it tomorrow.  It has 4 oilers per side.
Ron


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## madmodifier (Nov 20, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> What’s the easiest way to tell cast iron from steel? I basically have the same shaper and they look like steel to me.
> Thanks ron



Spark testing and milling are the ways I know about.


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## madmodifier (Nov 20, 2017)

Ron, Are they (gib plates) both the same width? It seems like the one with the gib would be wider? Also what is the distance between the ram and gib plate on the non way side.


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## Scruffy (Nov 20, 2017)

Hey mm I just came into the house. I’ll do some measuring it for you tomorrow .i can take them off to get you a good measurement. I had to take them off once .
 Mine have what I would call precision shims under them.  Cut the heads off some bolts and slot them for a screwdriver when putting together. Keeps the shims in place.
If anyone wants to know why I had the holdowns off i’ll Start another post, it’s a good story.
Thanks ron


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## Dabbler (Nov 26, 2017)

Nice find! Your work is sensational...  thanks for posting!


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## madmodifier (Nov 27, 2017)

Dabbler said:


> Nice find! Your work is sensational...  thanks for posting!


Thanks for your nice words!


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## madmodifier (Nov 27, 2017)

Made a little more progress this weekend. Mostly grease/rust/paint removal. First round of degreaser treatments on the column/base. Hopefully start to paint this weekend.






























Now I need to figure out the best way to degrease the floor LOL!


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Nov 27, 2017)

Love these Projects !------- BLJHB .


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## Glenn Brooks (Nov 27, 2017)

Heroic effort! 

Try lacquer thinner instead of the pressure can CRC brake cleaner. Way cheaper and works really well for degreasing old dried up way oil.


Glenn


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## Bob Korves (Nov 27, 2017)

Glenn Brooks said:


> Try lacquer thinner


Will also fry your brain and your nervous system without proper precautions.  Please be careful with hot solvents...


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## madmodifier (Nov 28, 2017)

Glenn Brooks said:


> Heroic effort!
> 
> Try lacquer thinner instead of the pressure can CRC brake cleaner. Way cheaper and works really well for degreasing old dried up way oil.
> 
> ...


I am mostly using a green degreaser for the bulk of my chemical removal.


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## Glenn Brooks (Nov 28, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Will also fry your brain and your nervous system without proper precautions.  Please be careful with hot solvents...



Iam almost out of lacquer thinner and am rethinking using any more of this stuff. It’s effective, but very toxic, even with lots of ventilation.  Might go back to a squirt bottle with diesel, and lots of scrubbing.

Ben,  what green product do you use? 

Glenn


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## madmodifier (Nov 28, 2017)

Glenn Brooks said:


> Iam almost out of lacquer thinner and am rethinking using any more of this stuff. It’s effective, but very toxic, even with lots of ventilation.  Might go back to a squirt bottle with diesel, and lots of scrubbing.
> 
> Ben,  what green product do you use?
> 
> Glenn


Trying this stuff.


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## madmodifier (Nov 28, 2017)

The gibb strip metal has arrived! Hope to have time to work on ruffing them in this weekend.


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## f350ca (Nov 28, 2017)

I use Super Clean, comes in a purple container. Works wonders, spray it on with a weed sprayer, let it soak and use the pressure washer.

Greg


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## tertiaryjim (Nov 29, 2017)

Ben
I used Durabar to make a 60 deg. straight edge. It was very unstable and after machining all four sides it warped like a banana. 
Had to heat it in my kitchen oven a couple of times which helped but finally set it close to the broiler and cooked it good.
It still moves but only a thousanths or so over time.  Have to scrape it back in before use.

Another problem is it has a lot of soft gummy area with harder lines near the outer edges.
This soft area is difficult to get a clean scrape and the hard mix makes it difficult to to scrape to a consistent  depth.

This may be due to a certain batch of bar stock but I recomend you normalize the bars before starting.
I like that your using cast iron and think it will give the best service life for the machine.
jim


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## Dabbler (Nov 29, 2017)

Thanks for the heads up on the durabar.  I'll let mine age all winter before working on it.  We get a wide variety of temperatures here, from -25C to +15C all winter.  I'm sure with a few 'bakes' in the oven it'll normalize well.


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## Silverbullet (Dec 2, 2017)

Yea at the cost of it , it should all ready be stabilised . But ya got to love cast iron it's really an amazing metal.


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## madmodifier (Jan 21, 2018)

I was tired of degreasing so I decided it was good. One last wipe with acetone and I started priming. Nice to make a little progress.


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## TPinheiro (Feb 16, 2018)

Very good work so far, surely this restoration will be perfect!

I wish you best wishes and work!

See you


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## madmodifier (Jun 19, 2018)

Things are starting to go back the right way!


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## Silverbullet (Jun 20, 2018)

Looks good , after rereading the posts, I wonder if brass plates would work on the ways . Oil grooves and scraping they should last as well or better.


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## madmodifier (Jun 25, 2018)

Silverbullet said:


> Looks good , after rereading the posts, I wonder if brass plates would work on the ways . Oil grooves and scraping they should last as well or better.



Thanks! I have already picked up the cast for the Gibb plates. I now just need to get them to size and flat. Finding a machine to make ~32" continuous cut.


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## NCjeeper (Jun 27, 2018)

Interesting project.


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## madmodifier (Oct 22, 2018)

Made some progress this weekend. Working on roughing out the Gibb Strips. A bit challenging as 34" continuous cuts are beyond all of my current machines. Next will be attempting to fly cut the important surfaces, build transfer screws for 5/8-13 and scraping the important side of the Gibb.





Cut Gibb one to length, just barely made it




Gibb one will need to be ripped lengthwise. I am thinking of building infeed and outfeed tables for the 4x6 saw as this thing is pretty heavy and the table is very flimsy.




Gibb 2 cut to length then milled off the radius on each side from extrusion. Gets me within .100 of final.




Roughed Gibb 2 sitting in its new home.





Thanks,
Ben


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## madmodifier (Oct 29, 2018)

When you don't have the right equipment you just use your patience. This was a long cut to get gibb strip 1 roughed in.


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## madmodifier (Nov 5, 2018)

Little more progress.






Blended pretty well. Scratches are from trying to touch off the tool by hand.


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## Dabbler (Nov 7, 2018)

I have to say that I really love your machine - and all the great work you are putting into it!


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## Janderso (Nov 7, 2018)

To bring that beautiful tool back to life is a gift to humanity, well really cool anyway.
Keep the pics coming.


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## madmodifier (Dec 27, 2018)

Tiny bit more progress. Gibb's are drilled for mounting. Now to shape to final size and scrape flat.


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## Janderso (Dec 27, 2018)

She is a beauty


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## NCjeeper (Dec 27, 2018)

Looking good.


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