# How messed up is your imported machine?



## Doug Gray (Dec 7, 2021)

Relatively inexpensive imported machines are great for the hobby machinist. but of course they can be a little messed up.

My 1440 import lathe has got some pretty funky quirks, she gets the job done but she's definitely funky. They couldn't even get the serial number/date straight!
Quality control...?


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## talvare (Dec 7, 2021)

I guess it depends on where it was imported from. Mines from Italy and I can't imagine being any more satisfied.

Ted


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## Ken226 (Dec 7, 2021)

Back around 2013 i bought two import lathes, one was a brand new Smithy 12x37 and the other a 15 year old used Birmingham 13x40.   They were both from China and clearly from different factories, and different eras.   

The older Birmingham was much better than the new Smithy.  The difference was surprising.

The new Smithy was pretty bad.  The saddles gasket mating surface  was 1/2" wider than the matching apron surface, and had a gap I could fit my pinky in.  It was loud, loose, and had tons of issues that I had to fix.  The apron/saddle mating issue was un-fixable.  I fixed it up to a reasonable condition and sold it.

The old used  Birmingham was the opposite.  It was quiet, smooth, with a downright decent fit and finish.  I kept it.

  Over the years I've upgraded and replaced nearly everything on it to get it to a condition I would consider better than just "decent",   including all of the headstock and gearbox bearings, motor, pulleys, electronics, etc.  I milled some of the castings flat and repainted them with cerakote.   

I consider these types of machines to be like a basket case project.  They can be made into a decent machine with some money and work, but you'll probably invest just as much as if you bought a nice Taiwan made machine from the start.

   I picked up the Birmingham for 1200$ back in 2013.  If I did a rough tally of the work I've done over the years, i probably have another 3000$ invested in it, not counting the labor.   

Between the P5 Timkens for the spindle, and the Timkens for the rest of the headstock and gearbox, the 3 phase motor, VFD, electronics, paint and powdercoat,  the upgrades cost significantly more than I spent on the lathe.


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## epanzella (Dec 7, 2021)

I got a Grizzly G4003G 6 years ago. It had all the features and tooling that I required and the price was right. My work immediately took a quantum leap in accuracy over my worn out American iron. I've built all kinds of stuff including 2 rifles on it and I couldn't be happier.


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## Mitch Alsup (Dec 7, 2021)

I can also attest that my 5YO G4003G is an excellent machine.
The only thing I can compare it to is my Taig microLathe. And the G4003G is light years better in every way.
{Now if they would only get rid of the China tariff:: what was $3500 is now $4300}


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## Batmanacw (Dec 7, 2021)

This is a picture of my PM1030V cross slide on my surface grinder. The shiny spots are where I touched off and took 0.001". 

The bottom took around 0.005" to flatten out "enough". I couldn't believe they did such a ridiculous job on the bottom of my cross slide. It looked like they tried to scrape it with an angle grinder.


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## Nutfarmer (Dec 7, 2021)

I had an Induma mill from Italy an it was a good equipment. China imports are like gambling. Sometimes you win and other time you end up with the factory rejects. Quality control?  If it fits in the box it ships. I have had good luck with Shars. Other importers ,not so much.


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## aliva (Dec 7, 2021)

Doug Gray said:


> Relatively inexpensive imported machines are great for the hobby machinist. but of course they can be a little messed up.
> 
> My 1440 import lathe has got some pretty funky quirks, she gets the job done but she's definitely funky. They couldn't even get the serial number/date straight!
> Quality control...?
> ...


My King 1236 works as advertised, parts and service manuals have a lot to be desired


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## pacifica (Dec 7, 2021)

Doug Gray said:


> Relatively inexpensive imported machines are great for the hobby machinist. but of course they can be a little messed up.
> 
> My 1440 import lathe has got some pretty funky quirks, she gets the job done but she's definitely funky. They couldn't even get the serial number/date straight!
> Quality control...?
> ...


I have a Taiwan 1340 lathe and needed to do the following:
Replace the drive belt and balance the sheaves
Reinforce the base with 300 + #'s of steel
Add an oiler for the gearbox
Adjust the headstock
Add a tach
add a vfd
Add a DRO
Runs great and smooth. Run out in spindle bore is less than .0001". Vibration using an indicator pressed against the headstock and independently mounted on a separate tripod is between .0001 and .0003 depending on the RPM's. That's from 25 to 2500 rpm.


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## macardoso (Dec 7, 2021)

I bought a used '94 Enco 110-2033 (12x36) lathe which is nearly identical to a G9249. I didn't need to do much to it other than a deep clean, belt replacements, and a fine adjustment of leveling.

I can hold 0.0002" on a diameter pretty darn easily and with a cheap DRO added to it, the length of cuts in Z are very accurate too.

Cost me $1300 in 2018 from HGR industrial surplus.

EDIT: Comparatively, my 2012 new G0704 is a hot mess. All the original components have been removed to make it CNC, but the accuracy and fit of the ways is quite bad.


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## Reddinr (Dec 7, 2021)

I have a G0509G Grizzly lathe that had a couple of minor problems when I first got it.  The change gears were not easy to change.  A file and 5 minutes took off a sharp edge on a couple of the brass forks and that took care of the problem.  The cross slide is a little tight at the extremes.  Except for the forks, the gear train in the headstock and feed transmission are things of beauty!  I would buy it again.

My RF-45 clone from Industrial Hobbies has been very reliable.  The castings had some defects, one pretty ugly one, but none were consequential.  I did have to shim the Z-axis to tram it but I think that is par for the course.

My Powermatic wood lathe bed extension casting developed a huge crack after a few months of use.  They replaced it.  Taiwan made, I think.


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## C-Bag (Dec 7, 2021)

My 9x20 compound had more twist/lumpiness than that. I ended up getting a new upper part from Grizzly instead of trying to remachine it. It wasn’t perfect bit way better.


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## Aaron_W (Dec 7, 2021)

Nutfarmer said:


> I had an Induma mill from Italy an it was a good equipment. China imports are like gambling. Sometimes you win and other time you end up with the factory rejects. Quality control?  If it fits in the box it ships. I have had good luck with Shars. Other importers ,not so much.



It is definitely worth buying from a vendor that does some quality control. 

Like Shars, Little Machine Shop and All industrial must at least look in the box before shipping, and pull the really messed up stuff from their inventory. They seem to sell a lot of the same stuff you see on ebay, but with a lot less sand and grinder leavings. They also know how to pack items so they don't add to the issues.


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## markba633csi (Dec 7, 2021)

I think they should have measurement police at the docks. If it doesn't meet spec it gets dumped overboard- let the fish have it 
The fish probably could use some more iron in their diet anyhow LOL
-M


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## matthewsx (Dec 7, 2021)

Every product is made to a price point for the target customer. 

There's a very old saying that covers this, ya git what ya pay for....

John


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## C-Bag (Dec 7, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> There's a very old saying that covers this, ya git what ya pay for....


In my case I bought used , basically unused w/QCTP, upgraded 5” 3jw, 6” 4jw, original 4” 3jw, both steady and follow rests and tooling for $650. I know HF, it’s a pig inna poke and best thought of as a kit. So with the help of the online info and gents here it’s to the point with some work and adjusting if there’s a problem it’s me, not it. I could have a better machine but I often wonder if what I put out would be any better? 

i also like the old saying “a good carpenter doesn’t blame his tools”.


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## matthewsx (Dec 7, 2021)

I bought a Bolton 13x40 (actually traded for a Craftsman 6" lathe) that had been dropped on it's face.

The machine wasn't good by any stretch but I was able to make several parts needed to fix it with itself. Totally agree that you can make good stuff with marginal equipment. For some people it'll be the entry into building and fixing for years to come, for others it'll just be frustration. It's up to you to decide which one you'll be but this forum is a great place if you want to be one who succeeds.

One of my favorite old quotes....

"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

Calvin Coolidge


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## jwmay (Dec 8, 2021)

C-Bag said:


> i also like the old saying “a good carpenter doesn’t blame his tools”.


"Cheap tools is misplaced economy." haunts every purchase I consider.  Although carpentry and the tonsorial trade aren't entirely in the same wheelhouse. 
For my part, the import machines I've owned had some foibles as well. The lathe had very poor fasteners securing the compound. This, combined with a previous owner unafraid of hammer tightening things, caused some damage. The feed selector legend plate fell off for no apparent reason other than bad riveting. And both machines had the same type of mating surface condition as Batmanacw described. But I didn't do anything about it, and it doesn't matter for the finished product so far. I don't like the noisy handwheel knobs, but supposedly the rotating sleeves are an improvement over the solid knobs of old. 
Offered a Mulligan, I'd still incrementally waste a ton of money on an old American beater, because I'm sadly, a man who loves to fix old broken things. But the only regret that plagues my hobby these days is selling my Grizzly g4002(discontinued). I sure do miss that machine sometimes.


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## Ken226 (Dec 8, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> "Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."
> 
> Calvin Coolidge



There was a poster on the wall in my basic training company in Ft Benning, GA with that quote.   The quote was under a picture of a pebble filled stream, with a caption that said, "in the battle between the rock and the stream, the stream always wins,  through persistence".

This one was right next to it.


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## vtcnc (Dec 8, 2021)

jwmay said:


> "Cheap tools is misplaced economy." haunts every purchase I consider. Although carpentry and the tonsorial trade aren't entirely in the same wheelhouse.
> For my part, the import machines I've owned had some foibles as well. The lathe had very poor fasteners securing the compound. This, combined with a previous owner unafraid of hammer tightening things, caused some damage. The feed selector legend plate fell off for no apparent reason other than bad riveting. And both machines had the same type of mating surface condition as Batmanacw described. But I didn't do anything about it, and it doesn't matter for the finished product so far. I don't like the noisy handwheel knobs, but supposedly the rotating sleeves are an improvement over the solid knobs of old.
> Offered a Mulligan, I'd still incrementally waste a ton of money on an old American beater, because I'm sadly, a man who loves to fix old broken things. But the only regret that plagues my hobby these days is selling my Grizzly g4002(discontinued). I sure do miss that machine sometimes.



Lol. Tonsorial. Vocab lesson for the day! Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## savarin (Dec 8, 2021)

Bought my 9x20 new knowing full well it was at best a kit of parts.
Did a lot of work fettling it till I was sure it was working correctly.
It hasnt done too bad by me and I've turned out some passable work with it.


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## addertooth (Dec 8, 2021)

I am in super-strong agreement with Aaron_W.  
I am a firm believer in paying a bit more, and buying through a seller who asserts another layer of quality control on Asian Machines.
Even so, you may run into some fitment issues, but they tend to be less glaring, and critical.

Matthewsx was also on point, when he described all machines being made for a "cost point".  There are several books which are written
about *how to fix design/congenital flaws* on some families of products.  You can get a "good one", but still have to overcome some design weaknesses to convert it from a serviceable product, and into a great product.

Someone else mentioned tariffs.  I look back on what I paid for my mill and lathe a year or two ago, and realize how lucky I got beating the tariffs. Now those same machines would darn near price themselves out of my reach. I wonder if those tariffs have had a chilling effect on people getting into this hobby, or at least, has made them scale-back the size/quality of the machine they initially purchase.


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## C-Bag (Dec 8, 2021)

Buying cheap and expecting to have to do some troubleshooting but knowing others had turned them into something they could rely on was why I went the way I did. I get the fascination with Old Iron and have a few. But they have their glaring faults too. Of course I lust after bigger and better more prestigious machine tools but an overstuffed shop a cheap heart and a wonderful wife who can talk me down have helped me stay the course. I’ll admit I’m one of those few who loves to try and make a sows ear into a silk purse. I’ve learned a lot of how my machines work and how to understand why they don’t. The 9x20 and RF30 are not exactly revered but the fact they still make them, they have a following and I can buy parts were also a big part of my decision. I are a hobbyist thru and thru and my shop full of cheap modded castoffs proves it.


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## Aaron_W (Dec 8, 2021)

jwmay said:


> "Cheap tools is misplaced economy." haunts every purchase I consider.



Cheap is relative, everything is cheap compared to something. I have one of those 9 in 1 mini lathes that cost about $100. It does work, it will actually turn metal, but it also makes a Harbor Freight 7x10 lathe look like a Hardinge.

Kind of like table saws, you can spend $200 for a basic "contractors" saw or $7000 for a high end cabinet saw, they both cut wood. Most of us have to live in that place of good enough and still within my budget.


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## jwmay (Dec 8, 2021)

Well I have an Atlas lathe and a Grizzly mill/drill. Obviously I can deal with being haunted. I've got loads of misplaced economy around here. But I hear that phrase in my head every time I'm considering a purchase. Lol


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## C-Bag (Dec 8, 2021)

jwmay said:


> I hear that phrase in my head every time I'm considering a purchase. Lol


Me too, vol on 11. And trying to get a straight answer to make a wise choice is just short of impossible. I thought I’d have an inside track because my brother had worked decades as a machinist. But when I sent him something from CL all I’d get back was “junk”. No explanation, nothing to add to the data base. Then I found the “other” site and it was basically the same. No matter what somebody HATED it.

So I went to my old standby of making a list. What I needed to do vs what I could afford vs my workspace. I reasoned I could get by with 7x14 and a mini mill and decided to go the next size up in both, 9x20 & RF30. Read up extensively on both and about the domestic equivalents and knew I’d never be able to afford the domestic equivalents. So waited until the stars aligned and ended up with both for $1100 total. Outside of tooling I’ve not spent much on either.

I’ll be honest I thought I’d make what I wanted and figured they would sit and I would sell them for what I’ve got into them. But I never bargained on machining becoming a passion. And doing sheetmetal etc,etc. As hobbies go I could do worse.


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## Aaron_W (Dec 9, 2021)

C-Bag said:


> Me too, vol on 11. And trying to get a straight answer to make a wise choice is just short of impossible. I thought I’d have an inside track because my brother had worked decades as a machinist. But when I sent him something from CL all I’d get back was “junk”. No explanation, nothing to add to the data base. Then I found the “other” site and it was basically the same. No matter what somebody HATED it.
> 
> So I went to my old standby of making a list. What I needed to do vs what I could afford vs my workspace. I reasoned I could get by with 7x14 and a mini mill and decided to go the next size up in both, 9x20 & RF30. Read up extensively on both and about the domestic equivalents and knew I’d never be able to afford the domestic equivalents. So waited until the stars aligned and ended up with both for $1100 total. Outside of tooling I’ve not spent much on either.
> 
> I’ll be honest I thought I’d make what I wanted and figured they would sit and I would sell them for what I’ve got into them. But I never bargained on machining becoming a passion. And doing sheetmetal etc,etc. As hobbies go I could do worse.



That is funny, I was partially swayed by posts at PM into buying my Diamond horizontal mill. During my search for info on the mill I came across several fairly positive posts there on the mills. It was like the old Life cereal commercial, they hate everything so if there were people there who said nice things about them, they must be decent little mills.


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## epanzella (Dec 9, 2021)

As stated previously, I'm delighted with my G4003G Grizzly. I was apprehensive about replacing my worn out American iron with a Chinese machine but I really had no choice. I made a list of the minimum size machine and the accessories I needed and with, of course, the price I was willing to pay. Looking at name brand machines like South Bend I found myself looking at a machine that was too small and came with  half the stuff I needed at twice the price I was willing to pay. My only real choice was to either buy an import or buy nothing.


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## chatter chatter cut cut (Dec 9, 2021)

my no brand name $498  from china came with mismatched drive and spindle gear pullys. ruined 4 belts before i figured it out. had to get a pully and belts from ibt and get the new pully bored out to fit motor shaft. at least now its running with standard belts , easy to replace.however it is plenty accurate after some work .


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## Saxguy (Dec 27, 2021)

When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better.”​
― John Ruskin


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