# Bought an Everlast PowerTIG 250EX



## Holescreek

I've had a Lincoln Square Wave 175 for many years and it has performed very well on steel but lately I've had the urge and some necessity to weld more aluminum.  I'm a self taught welder (if you don't count hundreds of hours of Youtube) and through the magic of video research decided on an Everlast 250EX.  I called Everlast direct and ordered the welder and water cooler on April 25th and the welder arrived by itself on May 3rd.  I called Everlast's shipping dept and was told that the coolers had just arrived and were shipping out on the 4th. 

In the meantime I needed a cart for the new welder and while it would've been nice to be able to use the Everlast I couldn't run it without the cooler and did the task with the Lincoln.  The cooler finally arrived on May 9th.

Here's a pic of the partially complete cart: 












I had the day off work (May 9th) and spent the first hour playing around with settings and used up the last of my Argon.   I found a problem with the HF start working erratically and initially thought that there was a bad switch in the foot pedal. It didn't take long to figure out that I could scratch start the arc so I put a call in to Everlast tech support.  Long story short, I played phone tag until I finally made contact about 6pm eastern time.  Mark gave me a list of a couple of tests to run and also mentioned that the spark gap inside the welder may have gotten knocked out of position from handling.

This morning I removed the back cover and the screws from each side to open the welder up and check the gap.  Mark said the gap between the carbons should be between .029" and .035", Mine was set at .015". When I put a wrench on the locknut to loosen the adjusting screw I found that both it and the screw were loose. (even though they were covered with anti-tamper schmoo).  After reassembly the HF start was working fine and I got to play for a couple more hours running beads on aluminum and steel trying to get a feel for the settings.  There is a huge difference between operating the old Lincoln transformer machine and the new Everlast inverter machine.






I still need to mount tubes to hold filler metals on the left side of the cart someday soon.


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## coolidge

Congrats I have the 255ext.


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## markba633csi

A dream machine- let's hope it keeps running and doesn't become a servicing nightmare LOL
MS


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## woodchucker

Nice.
why couldn't you run w/o the cooler. The cooler is a nice to have, but it isn't necessary is it?


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## coolidge

Mine came with both a water cooled and air cooled torch so I could/did run without the cooler for a while, but the air cooled torch is limited on amps to 125. Above that you need the water cooled torch and cooler.


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## Rustrp

Holescreek said:


> I still need to mount tubes to hold filler metals on the left side of the cart someday soon.


I'm not sure why you want to put filler wire tubes on your cart. Filler wire should be kept in closed containers so they don't become contaminated, especially aluminum which oxidized quickly. Making the tubes to hold the containers the filler wire comes in is a good idea.


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## Rustrp

woochucker said:


> Nice.
> why couldn't you run w/o the cooler. The cooler is a nice to have, but it isn't necessary is it?


There's a difference in an air cooled torch and a water cooled torch, both size and design. TIG welding aluminum on a water cooled torch gets pretty hot, and an air cooled torch gets hotter. The insulation on the torch lead is different on a water cooled torch and it runs inside the water supply line to the torch, and the torch body is a lot smaller. With that said; A quick start up to check things out wouldn't hurt.


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## coolidge

What Rustrp said, I keep mine in their original tubes in my stainless tool cabinet which holds all my welding stuff. The BEST and lowest cost stainless tool chest for welding stuff is sold by Costco for only $399. You have to order them now they stopped carrying them in their stores, but everyone else sells this thing for $500 to $700 plus shipping. You can't beat $399.

https://www.costco.com/TRINITY-48"-Stainless-Steel-Rolling-Workbench.product.100161405.html


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## brino

Congratulations! Welcome to the club.



Holescreek said:


> There is a huge difference between operating the old Lincoln transformer machine and the new Everlast inverter machine.



Could you expand on that? I've never used a transformer based TIG machine. Any suggestions if I ever need to?



markba633csi said:


> let's hope it keeps running and doesn't become a servicing nightmare LOL


Mine has been a dream to own. Personally from what I've heard and read the Everlast support is way better than the blue or red guys machines. Besides, you could probably buy 3 or 4 of the Everlast machines for the price of one of the others!



woochucker said:


> why couldn't you run w/o the cooler. The cooler is a nice to have, but it isn't necessary is it?



The advantage of the water-cooled torches is that they are often much smaller than the air-cooled and can therefore fit in tighter places. Some of them are so small that they have very little "thermal mass", and they can overheat quickly. That said, I have used my water-cooled torch for tack welding without the cooler running. That Everlast cooler is LOUD! I am thinking of getting a simple air-cooled torch, just so a I can enjoy TIG more without the roar of the cooler.

-brino


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## coolidge

Brino exactly, that's the value proposition you can buy 2.5 of the Everlast machines for what a comparable Miller will cost you. So if your Everlast dies you could buy a 2nd one while the 1st is being repaired and still be in it for less money than a single Miller.

IF your welder is mission critical to your business, IF you cannot afford to have your welder down, then bite the bullet and buy Miller. I have at least 10 Miller service centers within driving distance of my house for parts and repairs. That's part of what you get for the higher cost Miller and Miller will 2nd day air parts out. But since I'm just a hobbyist Everlast made sense in my case.


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## coolidge

I did buy the Miller Coolmate 3 torch cooler due to Everlast lying to me and jacking me around on when their Powercool W300 would ship, got fed up with their BS.


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## Holescreek

The current carrying cable from the machine to the torch is a smaller diameter in water cooled torches because it has the coolant to keep it from overheating and frying.  Therefore it is limited in the amps it can withstand when run dry.  Without knowing what it could withstand it would be foolish to risk it. The day before the cooler arrived I had an air cooled torch picked out (but not ordered) in case it was going to take awhile. I've read that some people had waited a couple months for coolers to ship. 

The first thing I noticed is the Lincoln transformer machine was much more forgiving from a grounding and material prep standpoint. I could be pretty lazy and still get a satisfactory result.  It could be just that I had spent more time with it and knew what I could get away with.  I ran an earth ground to both the Everlast and my welding bench and sandpapered the bench top and the machine ran fine.  Probably just the difference in electronics.

I don't have the luxury of space for a dedicated toolbox to hold filler metal and the factory tubes aren't all that sealed either. I think some capped PVC tubes standing on the cart will solve both my space and exposure issues.


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## Rustrp

Holescreek said:


> I don't have the luxury of space for a dedicated toolbox to hold filler metal and the factory tubes aren't all that sealed either. I think some capped PVC tubes standing on the cart will solve both my space and exposure issues.



The PVC tubes will work well. 

Why did you need to buy a welder for aluminum when you already had one? The Lincoln had the capabilities for aluminum. Was something not working and you could no longer get repalcement parts?


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## Holescreek

Rustrp said:


> The PVC tubes will work well.
> 
> Why did you need to buy a welder for aluminum when you already had one? The Lincoln had the capabilities for aluminum. Was something not working and you could no longer get repalcement parts?



That's a terrific question!  Transformer machines can weld aluminum but only at 60 hz because they are limited to what the power company supplies.  The square wave tig transformer machine is balanced at 50% + and 50%- to provide cleaning action. The result is a pretty large hot puddle (relatively speaking of course).  The inverter machines are tuneable so they can provide frequencies between .5 to 500 Hz, and the wave form (time on + and - AC) can be adjusted for optimal cleaning action and penetration.  The higher the frequency the finer (narrower) the weld.

My most recent experience welding aluminum with the Lincoln  was a positive one in that it did the job but demonstrated to me that I needed the ability to adjust the welder to achieve better results.  Luckily it was a job where I was going to machine the weld back down to shape so it didn't have to look pretty.  

A buddy asked me the other day what big welding project I had in mind that required a new welder.  My response was that I buy tools that give me the capability to do anything I want before the need arises, not after.


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## Rustrp

Holescreek said:


> A buddy asked me the other day what big welding project I had in mind that required a new welder. My response was that I buy tools that give me the capability to do anything I want before the need arises, not after.


Spoken like a true addict. 

Both machines use 60 Hz because that's what the power company supplies. You can TIG weld aluminum with A.C. or D.C. but A.C. current is where the cleaning action comes in. High frequency is available on the transformer or inverter machine but it really sounds as if the Lincoln didn't have the controls or circuitry, and the bigger question is, do you need it.

Are you a better driver behind the wheel of a Prius or Tesla?

PS. I wasn't comparing Neverlast to Tesla.


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## Holescreek

Rustrp said:


> PS. I wasn't comparing Neverlast to Tesla.





Rustrp said:


> and the bigger question is, do you need it.



Based on your comments I get the feeling that you're biased in some way, just not sure which way.  I don't have to need it to want it, I thought we had that all sorted out?


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## Rustrp

Holescreek said:


> Based on your comments I get the feeling that you're biased in some way, just not sure which way.  I don't have to need it to want it, I thought we had that all sorted out?


I am biased to Made in America and I can't afford a machine that's going to leave me stranded. It doesn't make sense to buy two or three machines just in case one breaks down or the next container ship hasn't arrived in port, or won't for another month. 

My "need" comment was regarding the weld, not the machine. You can produce the same high quality weld from the transformer machine. As I stated, the Lincoln probably didn't have the circuitry. Most of the problems encountered in welding have nothing to do with the machine, it's simple welding basics, and if we miss these we miss a lot. Welding machines are sold based on whistles and bells, with electrical theory that's above the training of most welders. No, I'm not slighting anyone. i.e. I tell my welding salesperson; Show me how the crater fill feature works on my machine. I'm still waiting. If you don't stop and fill the crater at the end of the weld bead, a switch on the control panel isn't going to do it for you.


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## Rustrp

Holescreek said:


> That's a terrific question! Transformer machines can weld aluminum but only at 60 hz because they are limited to what the power company supplies. The square wave tig transformer machine is balanced at 50% + and 50%- to provide cleaning action. The result is a pretty large hot puddle (relatively speaking of course). The inverter machines are tuneable so they can provide frequencies between .5 to 500 Hz, and the wave form (time on + and - AC) can be adjusted for optimal cleaning action and penetration. The higher the frequency the finer (narrower) the weld.



If high frequency plays such a big part in welding aluminum, how are quality MIG welded aluminum weldments produced? This isn't a provacation question, it's a thought provoking question. Mig aluminum is a D.C. process with no high frequency.


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## Holescreek

Another good question! But I have neither the training to know nor the desire to search for the answer. I've never run aluminum through my Lincoln Mig.


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## coolidge

One of the top welders on youtube Jody at weldingtipsandtricks has put the Everlast up against the best Miller has in a head to head challenge and the Everlast matched or beat it. As for Made in USA the guts of the $8,000 Miller, which is 95% of an inverter welder, yeah made in Asia just like the Everlast. I know because I called up Miller and asked them. There are a lot of former made in USA products out there that are now made in Asia, but they are still charging the made in USA high price and not forthcoming about the fact that manufacturing was moved to Asia.


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## Holescreek

I'm good with cranky people, I am one most of the time.  I still have a few more years till retirement so I remember the good old days too.   I work for an OEM supplier to the automotive industry (my night job) and I know that our "made in USA" products are an accumulation of parts from all over the world and that when we receive finished product from our Japanese parent company and repackage it to go to US customers  a "made in USA" label  is stuck on the box. Conversely when we ship our US made products to Japan they do the same thing after changing the packaging.  You tell the customers what they want to hear.

I can say that it was seeing the 250EX in a lot of Jody's videos that convinced me to go that way.  It was especially apparent to me because he uses it on a lot of his videos where the brand isn't mentioned and the welder isn't the subject of the video.   The other deciding factor was the lack of negative comments on the internet.  There's no shortage of negative comments on everything else  on the net but I couldn't find anyone complaining about anything but shipping times and most of those were during the dock workers strike in CA a year or two ago.


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## Rustrp

coolidge said:


> One of the top welders on youtube Jody at weldingtipsandtricks has put the Everlast up against the best Miller has in a head to head challenge and the Everlast matched or beat it. As for Made in USA the guts of the $8,000 Miller, which is 95% of an inverter welder, yeah made in Asia just like the Everlast. I know because I called up Miller and asked them. There are a lot of former made in USA products out there that are now made in Asia, but they are still charging the made in USA high price and not forthcoming about the fact that manufacturing was moved to Asia.



I was providing factual information not opinion. The Lincoln 175 can produce a quality aluminum TIG weld and I was asking why he purchased a new welder. Can you provide supporting information to support your comments? Mr Tig supports the Everlast also because he provides an upgrade package for the standard junk that comes with the welder, and it's junk too. As he said; "One out of so many foot pedals don't work correctly."


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## Rustrp

Holescreek said:


> I'm good with cranky people, I am one most of the time.  I still have a few more years till retirement so I remember the good old days too.   I work for an OEM supplier to the automotive industry (my night job) and I know that our "made in USA" products are an accumulation of parts from all over the world and that when we receive finished product from our Japanese parent company and repackage it to go to US customers  a "made in USA" label  is stuck on the box. Conversely when we ship our US made products to Japan they do the same thing after changing the packaging.  You tell the customers what they want to hear.
> 
> I can say that it was seeing the 250EX in a lot of Jody's videos that convinced me to go that way.  It was especially apparent to me because he uses it on a lot of his videos where the brand isn't mentioned and the welder isn't the subject of the video.   The other deciding factor was the lack of negative comments on the internet.  There's no shortage of negative comments on everything else  on the net but I couldn't find anyone complaining about anything but shipping times and most of those were during the dock workers strike in CA a year or two ago.



I wasn't knocking your choice, I was addressing the *why you purchased a new welder* and you stated the reason and that's good enough. I was pointing out some technical areas. I have four welders and I never bought a new welder based on something better than what I had, the purchase was based on the welding process(es) that needed to be done. My overall point was, your Lincoln will produce a weld comparable to the Everlast.


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## Reeltor

The timing of this thread is spot on.  Earlier today I asked a friend who is a certified welder about the differences between an inverter and a transformer machine.  He didn't know but it sounds like the ability to change the frequency when welding aluminum and the weight difference are pluses.

I have a square wave 175 and it works very well for what I use it for and at best I'm a hack welder.  The electronics may be dated, I think I bought my welder back in the 90's.  Lincoln is also selling inverter units, I don't know where they are made.


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## Holescreek

Rustrp said:


> I was providing factual information not opinion. The Lincoln 175 can produce a quality aluminum TIG weld and I was asking why he purchased a new welder. Can you provide supporting information to support your comments? Mr Tig supports the Everlast also because he provides an upgrade package for the standard junk that comes with the welder, and it's junk too. As he said; "One out of so many foot pedals don't work correctly."



I saw that video too.  I don't remember what all was on his list of stuff he was replacing aside from attaching a $14 plug on the end of the power cord but I do remember his mentioning the foot pedal.  I did note that Everlast sells "better" foot pedals  on their site and provides the pinout in the manual for those that want to adapt the machine to something else.   I wonder what the mark-up cost is for "Mr. TIG" to upgrade the otherwise stock welder (and slap his brand on it)?  All he has to do is tell you what you want to hear (it's junk, but not the welder of course, just the stuff he's replacing) to convince you that he's doing you a favor by upping the cost. In fact, I wonder if he's having Everlast make the changes to his specs and drop shipping them?


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## Holescreek

Rustrp said:


> My overall point was, your Lincoln will produce a weld comparable to the Everlast.



It must just be psychological then, in the last couple days of experimenting with the settings and I've produced dozens of welds that look better than I was able to produce with the Lincoln.  It could just be that given all my new choices I never once turned the frequency down to 60 hz and set the balance to 50%.


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## coolidge

Holescreek said:


> I'm good with cranky people, I am one most of the time.  I still have a few more years till retirement so I remember the good old days too.   I work for an OEM supplier to the automotive industry (my night job) and I know that our "made in USA" products are an accumulation of parts from all over the world and that when we receive finished product from our Japanese parent company and repackage it to go to US customers  a "made in USA" label  is stuck on the box. Conversely when we ship our US made products to Japan they do the same thing after changing the packaging.  You tell the customers what they want to hear.
> 
> I can say that it was seeing the 250EX in a lot of Jody's videos that convinced me to go that way.  It was especially apparent to me because he uses it on a lot of his videos where the brand isn't mentioned and the welder isn't the subject of the video.   The other deciding factor was the lack of negative comments on the internet.  There's no shortage of negative comments on everything else  on the net but I couldn't find anyone complaining about anything but shipping times and most of those were during the dock workers strike in CA a year or two ago.



There were some quality problems with Everlast but it was back in 2014 and prior years. On the other hand purchasing Miller or Lincoln is no guarantee you won't have issues, they have better support, quicker repair times but they are not immune to break downs either. Jody is the man, what little I have learned about TIG has mostly been from his videos.


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## coolidge

Holescreek said:


> It must just be psychological then, in the last couple days of experimenting with the settings and I've produced dozens of welds that look better than I was able to produce with the Lincoln.  It could just be that given all my new choices I never once turned the frequency down to 60 hz and set the balance to 50%.



I started with a Lincoln 210MP, hated it. I was running nice beads with the Everlast 255ext in a fraction of the practice time. And we haven't even talked about the pulse features yet, here's a first time outside corner fusion join using a 1 second pulse, 50/50 power at a 1 second interval, the machine did all the hard work. My tack welds left, middle, right, but look at the pulsed beads in-between, that's with no practice, the pulse feature freezing the puddle behind me, fusion weld no filler rod.


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## Rustrp

Reeltor said:


> The timing of this thread is spot on.  Earlier today I asked a friend who is a certified welder about the differences between an inverter and a transformer machine.  He didn't know but it sounds like the ability to change the frequency when welding aluminum and the weight difference are pluses.
> 
> I have a square wave 175 and it works very well for what I use it for and at best I'm a hack welder.  The electronics may be dated, I think I bought my welder back in the 90's.  Lincoln is also selling inverter units, I don't know where they are made.



The frequency adjustment do-hickey does the same thing as the arc balance knob. Primarily the  cleaning action of A.C. current when welding aluminum is accomplished by electrons bombarding the metal and the arc balance or frequency adjustment stabilizes the arc, and a stable arc in any welding process results in a better weld. The frequency adjustment (arc balance) also takes advantage of the penetrating properties when the current cycles into what would be electrode negative in a DCEN setting. A lot of improvement can be made in welding performance if we take the time to understand the polarity settings and electron flow. I work at presenting useful information and I realize many imparting information are YouTube trained and haven't moved beyond dipping their tungsten long enough to actually weld a bead. Keep your 175 and keep practicing, you'll do okay.


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## Rustrp

Holescreek said:


> I saw that video too


If he was promoting the welder he was doing a pathetic job. I think every manufacturer has upgrades, but upgrades to make the equipment function is sad.


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## Holescreek

Rustrp said:


> If he was promoting the welder he was doing a pathetic job. I think every manufacturer has upgrades, but upgrades to make the equipment function is sad.
> 
> The frequency adjustment do-hickey does the same thing as the arc balance knob.



You seem to have latched onto one person's comment ("Mr. TIG" of all people ) that the units are not "functional" to suit your own purposes.  You should know that a Lincoln Square Wave TIG 175 doesn't have frequency or balance knobs and that the two knobs -if they did exist - don't do the same thing.    As the owner of both machines I can say that the difference between them is huge even this early in the game.   You are entitled to your opinion of course and have made it known where you stand with the facts as you choose to interpret them but your  starting to sound more like a troll.  It's hard to tell on the internet since you don't get a face or voice to go with the words.  I also own 4 welders but that doesn't make me an expert on the subject beyond cramming a lot of stuff in a small area.


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## Ironken

brino said:


> Mine has been a dream to own. Personally from what I've heard and read the Everlast support is way better than the blue or red guys machines. Besides, you could probably buy 3 or 4 of the Everlast machines for the price of one of the others!
> 
> 
> 
> -brino



I respectfully disagree, Brino. I have owned a slew of Miller and Lincoln and used both in industry. Lincoln customer service was o.k. and not much more.

Recently, I had a technical situation with my MM252 and called Miller. I was transferred to an engineer who was responsible for the product line including the 252. He said that he wanted to replicate my issue in the lab including wire brand, gas mix and run in settings and get back to me. Two days later, I get a phone call from Appleton, Wi. with a solution. I'm pleased.


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## Ironken

Rustrp said:


> I am biased to Made in America and I can't afford a machine that's going to leave me stranded. It doesn't make sense to buy two or three machines just in case one breaks down or the next container ship hasn't arrived in port, or won't for another month.
> 
> My "need" comment was regarding the weld, not the machine. You can produce the same high quality weld from the transformer machine. As I stated, the Lincoln probably didn't have the circuitry. Most of the problems encountered in welding have nothing to do with the machine, it's simple welding basics, and if we miss these we miss a lot. Welding machines are sold based on whistles and bells, with electrical theory that's above the training of most welders. No, I'm not slighting anyone. i.e. I tell my welding salesperson; Show me how the crater fill feature works on my machine. I'm still waiting. If you don't stop and fill the crater at the end of the weld bead, a switch on the control panel isn't going to do it for you.



I agree. I have seen the big 3 used in industry and not much else. I'm sure Everlast makes a fine hobby machine though.

I can and do occasionally change the freq on my machine but grew up on an old Syncrowave 351 and an even older Lincoln Squarewave boat anchor. Anymore, everybody is a few Youtube videos from being a welder.


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## JimDawson

I haven't tried out the newfangled suitcase inverter welders.  Maybe they're alright, I might be missing something.  I'm still happily using my old Miller Syncrowave 250 that weighs about 300 lbs.  Had it for about 25 years.  It has a lot of knobs to twiddle with, does all kinds of cool stuff to the arc.  I'm sure the new ones are much simpler.  Now if I could just see what I was doing I might be a welder too


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## Rustrp

Holescreek said:


> You seem to have latched onto one person's comment ("Mr. TIG" of all people ) that the units are not "functional" to suit your own purposes.


You are correct, Mr Tig is only one person and this wasn't the sole reason for my comments. I asked you why you were buying a machine to weld aluminum when you already had one. To be specific in my bias, it's Americans complaining about our economy yet the run to H-F or another supplier who have taken their production or manufacturing to the Asian market. The technology used by Everlast has been around for 30 years and Powcon got it right the first time, yet Everlast struggled on their startup as if it was new technology. The issue was poor quality and poor quality control.

I'm aware the 175 doesn't have a balance knob but most machines with A.C. TIG capabilities have some form of frequency balance. I never stated the Everlast 250 EX and it's features wouldn't help you produce a better weld. My comments were directed to helping you become a better welder. i.e. Why do the different processes use different currents and in D.C. different polarities?  My comment about four welders was based on what I use them for and the processes. I have a portable gas unit I use for SMAW and FCAW, I have a 250 Synchrowave I use primarily for GTAW, a Millermatic 200  for GMAW and a small Hobart 120 MIG for the light duty out of the shop jobs. As I stated, they are specific for the processes not for whistles and bells, and I'm not inclined to or have the urge to run out and purchase another based on the latest YouTube pitch.

There are advantages to inverter systems and one specific is current control. Transformers deliver based on the input and welders are aware of this, so adjustments need to be made. Inverters keep a more constant current and they also allow for different voltage inputs which have it's advantages. Inverter models allow for jobsite work without concerns for which power might be available.


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## Ironken

JimDawson said:


> I haven't tried out the newfangled suitcase inverter welders.  Maybe they're alright, I might be missing something.  I'm still happily using my old Miller Syncrowave 250 that weighs about 300 lbs.  Had it for about 25 years.  It has a lot of knobs to twiddle with, does all kinds of cool stuff to the arc.  I'm sure the new ones are much simpler.  Now if I could just see what I was doing I might be a welder too



It is a sad day Jim when you finally give in and buy some cheaters for your hood. I thought my Speedglas 9100xx was junk and stepped up to the 9100xxi for better clarity.......still couldn't see. A $5 set of cheaters and I can see like I was 18 again....doh!


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## Reeltor

I have a plasma cutter on my wish list, and suggested to someone that when they purchase their welder that having the plasma cutter feature is worthwhile.  This lead me to ask about the difference between the transformer and inverter type machines.  Failing to get an answer I went on-line and the first google response was  a video by "Mr. Tig" I know it's not fair to judge a channel by only one video but I have to say I wasn't impressed.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other, regarding what machine is best.  I'll keep my Squarewave 175 and if I get a windfall I'll look at a combo inverter box with a plasma.  (but I think a box and pan brake (finger brake) is higher on the list of new want to have toys  )

Holes, I didn't look up the unit that you just bought, does it have the plasma cutter?

Mike


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## coolidge

Mike I started with a Lincoln multi process machine, getting multiple machines for the price of one sounds brilliant in principle but in reality it didn't work out so well. The Lincoln MIG was okay but the TIG process was a joke.

The Everlast PowerPro 256D is the TIG/Plasma/Stick version of my PowerTIG 255ext which just does TIG/Stick. The 256D costs $450 more, has ridiculously short torch and ground cords for Plasma that will need upgrading, oh and is only rated HALF the duty cycle of the 255ext on TIG. So if you look closely you really don't get multiple machines for the price of one.

I'm looking at Hypertherm 45XP, guys experienced with plasma cutting tell me Hypertherm is the king of plasma cutters. $1,672 no compromises, long cords, ready to go out of the box.


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## Rustrp

Rustrp said:


> I am biased to Made in America and I can't afford a machine that's going to leave me stranded.



To be specific in regard to Made in America, I'm not promoting an isolationist or protectionist attitude or approach. America and all countries of the world have been global traders for centuries and before, limited only by transportation modes. I'm not promoting the idea that America produces only quality products because we don't. Whether the product is made in America, north or south of our border, across the Pacific or Atlantic Oceans, I'm promoting building and purchasing a quality product. 

A few weeks ago we had a thread where someone was asking how much machinists earn. The bottom line is in too many cases, not enough. If you wish to be a hobby machinist then that's all well and good but the machinist trade isn't built on a foundation of **we build junk** and **that's good enough**.  I support labor and the person who works hard every day for their earned paycheck, so I'm not inclined to support someone who's total ball game, from the first pitch to the final inning is manufacturing their product in a sweat shop.


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## brino

Ironken said:


> I respectfully disagree, Brino. I have owned a slew of Miller and Lincoln and used both in industry. Lincoln customer service was o.k. and not much more. Recently, I had a technical situation with my MM252 and called Miller. I was transferred to an engineer who was responsible for the product line including the 252. He said that he wanted to replicate my issue in the lab including wire brand, gas mix and run in settings and get back to me. Two days later, I get a phone call from Appleton, Wi. with a solution. I'm pleased.



Hey, that's great!
I am glad you've had great support with yours.

I was merely trying to dis-spell the myth that machines openly made elsewhere have no support. I did a bunch of research before buying my Everlast. Then and since I have seen little negative about their quality or support. In fact, most of what I see is that if someone does have a bad pedal they get sent a new, heavier grade one next day and keep both. One guy had a delay in either the cooler or a cooled torch and they sent him an air-cooled torch immediately for free as a temporary work-around. I myself sent an email about 10pm on a Friday asking for a PDF version of the manual as it wasn't yet on their website (and I was worried about setting my paper copy on fire!) and within minutes I had it in my inbox!

Also, as said above, I'd bet that the circuit boards in the red and blue welders are also made in either Mexico or China. 
And I say that as a happy owner of a Lincoln MIG machine.

-brino


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## GarageGuy

I have the Everlast PowerPro 256, and am just about at the 4 year point of ownership.  Being a hobbyist, I don't know whether it would outlast a red or blue machine or not.  I certainly will never put enough hours on it to find out.  The features and arc stability are excellent though, and I am very happy with it.  I use an air cooled torch for small DC work, and a water cooled torch for big aluminum work.  I've welded razor blades together a 9 amps, and aluminum transmission cases at 250 amps.  

At work I use a Miller Dynasty 350, and it is a beautiful machine.  Strangely enough, my Everlast has a more stable arc in both AC and DC.  The Miller is running 3 phase power from a rotary phase converter though, and I've always wondered if maybe that was the reason for a less stable arc.  Either way, I like both machines, but I could only afford an Everlast.  The shop I work at has much deeper pockets than I do.

Bottom line... buy what you can afford.  We all use our welders differently, and there is no such thing as a "one size fits all" machine.  If there was, every manufacturer would only sell one model.

GG


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## Holescreek

20' of PVC pipe later I have the rod containers made and mounted. 4 on the left side, and 2 on the right.







The bottom cap is screwed down to the base and the tube is secured to the frame against a V (made from 1" angle iron) and a zip tie. I had something else in mind early on but once I started working on it this way made more sense.  Prior to this I had tubes and bags of filler rod scattered all over the place.  I'm going to make just one more tube to hold pre-cut 18" rods. I may attach that one to the welding bench.


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## coolidge

I predict Holescreek will have at least 10 different types/sizes of filler rods within 3 weeks.


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## brino

Holescreek said:


> I'm going to make just one more tube to hold pre-cut 18" rods.





coolidge said:


> I predict Holescreek will have at least 10 different types/sizes of filler rods within 3 weeks.



Yeah, LOL, I didn't buy that either. 
-brino


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## coolidge

brino said:


> Yeah, LOL, I didn't buy that either.
> -brino



We put the jinx on him now, 308, 316, ER4043, ER70S minimum 2 sizes each that's 8.


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## brino

coolidge said:


> 308, 316, ER4043, ER70S minimum 2 sizes each that's 8.



......and gotta have some aluminum-bronze and silicon-bronze on hand because you know people are going to bring over broken cast iron when they hear you can weld!
-brino


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## Holescreek

I've got some 309L, aluminum bronze, and 1/16" aluminum ordered to go along with the tubes that are already full. I've already started mixing sizes in a tube.


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## coolidge

You will build a wall mounted 14 tube rack (waves Jedi hand at Holescreek)


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## Holescreek

If I had a wall large enough there'd be another machine sitting in front of it.


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## Ironken

Holescreek said:


> 20' of PVC pipe later I have the rod containers made and mounted. 4 on the left side, and 2 on the right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bottom cap is screwed down to the base and the tube is secured to the frame against a V (made from 1" angle iron) and a zip tie. I had something else in mind early on but once I started working on it this way made more sense.  Prior to this I had tubes and bags of filler rod scattered all over the place.  I'm going to make just one more tube to hold pre-cut 18" rods. I may attach that one to the welding bench.






I did something similar. Picked up a cheapo cart for my filler metals, etc. 308, 309, 316, ER70S2, 4043, 4943, 5356, Al Bronze, Si Bronze cut lengths and MIG wire on the shelves.


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## Holescreek

You guys that keep posting pics of empty shops and machines with lots of room around them make me sad.


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## Ironken

Holescreek said:


> You guys that keep posting pics of empty shops and machines with lots of room around them make me sad.



She ain't empty now.....I have about 30 aluminum bar stools that I am puking back together. Wall to wall crap today boys. And a customer that wants the Dollar General discount.


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## NCjeeper

Ironken said:


> And a customer that wants the Dollar General discount.


Those same people pop up at my shop too.


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## Ironken

NCjeeper said:


> Those same people pop up at my shop too.



Was in a huge rush to get them done......finished them last Sunday. They're still in my shop!


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## BFHammer

My metal & wood working are primarily hobbies.  I seldom do jobs for others.  

But in my real life (the one that pays the bills) I deal with clients who would like you to work GOOD, FAST and CHEAP.  I always tell them they can have two out of three and I don't care which two they pick - but they can't have all three!


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## woodchucker

Ironken said:


> She ain't empty now.....I have about 30 aluminum bar stools that I am puking back together. Wall to wall crap today boys. And a customer that wants the Dollar General discount.


Better than being un-employed.  Work leads to work. No work leads to nothing. Try to make a little profit on it.


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## Ironken

woochucker said:


> Better than being un-employed.  Work leads to work. No work leads to nothing. Try to make a little profit on it.



Side gig.....I don't get what you're driving at here.....not to complain?


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## woodchucker

Ironken said:


> Side gig.....I don't get what you're driving at here.....not to complain?


Did not know it was a side gig. So if it was your primary gig yea. 

None of us want to work for a discount, but even where I work, they give the store away half the time for the next job, and the next job... which means we are always working on hugely discounted jobs.  But it keeps us employed, although barely from what I can tell. I'm in the medical imaging field. By the time we sell a system and get it running, we've just broken even, but we survive on support funding...


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## Ironken

woochucker said:


> Did not know it was a side gig. So if it was your primary gig yea.
> 
> None of us want to work for a discount, but even where I work, they give the store away half the time for the next job, and the next job... which means we are always working on hugely discounted jobs.  But it keeps us employed, although barely from what I can tell. I'm in the medical imaging field. By the time we sell a system and get it running, we've just broken even, but we survive on support funding...



Yeah, survival on support services work in some industry (heavy equip, etc). My biggest problem is that I try to be a nice guy and get abused because I want ALL of their business. Problem is I end up ****** because after I replace consumables and pay the light bill, I end up getting short dicked. I just completed my last short quoted job........hence forth, no more bashful quotes.


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## Holescreek

Ironken said:


> Yeah, survival on support services work in some industry (heavy equip, etc). My biggest problem is that I try to be a nice guy and get abused because I want ALL of their business. Problem is I end up ****** because after I replace consumables and pay the light bill, I end up getting short dicked. I just completed my last short quoted job........hence forth, no more bashful quotes.



Simple formula: prepare the quote your regular way then double the number before you give it to them.


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## Ironken

Holescreek said:


> Simple formula: prepare the quote your regular way then double the number before you give it to them.



That would put my quote just about where it needs to be.


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## GA Gyro

The key to avoiding bottom feeder customers...

Is to provide added value.  If the customer does not want it... thank them for their time and move on.
NEVER give a job away!  It only gives buyers the idea they can get stuff for less than its true value...


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## dogma

coolidge said:


> What Rustrp said, I keep mine in their original tubes in my stainless tool cabinet which holds all my welding stuff. The BEST and lowest cost stainless tool chest for welding stuff is sold by Costco for only $399. You have to order them now they stopped carrying them in their stores, but everyone else sells this thing for $500 to $700 plus shipping. You can't beat $399.
> 
> https://www.costco.com/TRINITY-48"-Stainless-Steel-Rolling-Workbench.product.100161405.html



I have one of these tool chests and the taller/larger 41" bottom/top chest combo -- I highly endorse both. The drawer runners put everything else even remotely in the price range to shame. I'm thinking about getting a second.  At least in Tucson, I have seen them out on the floor in at least two locations for less than the current online price. I think I last saw them listed at $449 (???).  However, I drive a wagon which won't fit one standing up, so I paid to have them freighted.


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## Old junk

GA Gyro said:


> The key to avoiding bottom feeder customers...
> 
> Is to provide added value.  If the customer does not want it... thank them for their time and move on.
> NEVER give a job away!  It only gives buyers the idea they can get stuff for less than its true value...


d
Giving your  price then give a discount only gives the customer the idea you were too high in the first place or they can beat you up a little more next time.i quote what is fair and that is what it is.if they don't want quality work at a fair price send em packing.good work ain't cheap and cheap work ain't good.learned a long time ago not to shoot myself in the foot.


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## Hukshawn

Old junk said:


> d
> Giving your  price then give a discount only gives the customer the idea you were too high in the first place or they can beat you up a little more next time.i quote what is fair and that is what it is.if they don't want quality work at a fair price send em packing.good work ain't cheap and cheap work ain't good.learned a long time ago not to shoot myself in the foot.


I've been saying that for years with my carpentry. really bothers me when people try to beat me down. You want to haggle a price, go to a car salesman or a Craigslist sale, don't beat down your serviceman or your contractor... he's trying to feed his family with his hard work..


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## Ironken

I can't quite grasp the logic of trying to haggle the price of a service. All that happens when you haggle a price is you **** off your fabricator. I have become less bashful on pricing over the past few weeks. Not being arrogant here but, I know that I build a quality product or make quality repairs and I stand behind my work.

I gave an estimate to a customer last week on a store bought propane fire pit that he wanted modified. Virtually, he only wanted to use the top and burner and build an entire cabinet under it. He was a super nice guy but, indicated that my price was more than he wanted to spend. My estimates are clearly spelled out line by line for materials and even down to the 10% I charge for consumables and supplier cut fees. I even list the fasteners used and price. I nicely told him that I gave him the best price that I could and gaurantee him quality.

The job was completed and his wife stopped by to pick up. She was very pleased. Mind you, all of my communications with this customer have been very short and to the point. He is a business man and wastes no time BSing on the phone.....I get it, he's busy. A few days after they picked up the fire pit, I see an email from him in my in box. I'm thinking ahhh crap....he's not happy. I open the email and see that this guy took the time to write me a glowing review for me to post on the shop facebook page. 

I learned a lot from this deal. Set your price, deliver quality on time, get a happy customer and put a few bucks in your pocket. The guys that don't wanna pay are usually people that I never want to deal with again anyway so, when they walk away over price I'm just saving myself a headache.


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## GA Gyro

Old junk said:


> d
> Giving your  price then give a discount only gives the customer the idea you were too high in the first place or they can beat you up a little more next time.i quote what is fair and that is what it is.if they don't want quality work at a fair price send em packing.good work ain't cheap and cheap work ain't good.learned a long time ago not to shoot myself in the foot.



Below is how we run the heating and AC business... this seems to work best for us... others may do differently.

When we are selling a new system... many times we offer an incentive to 'close' the sale.  
Typically this is how it goes: 
After a visit to the home, which includes time looking at the existing system, the load, and discussing wants, needs, and expectations... we offer best, better, and good; with pricing... each price has about $500 excess built in.  
If necessary to close the sale, I will offer a free thermostat upgrade or a free media filter.
Since we buy those items in bulk during slow season (best price), it is more a matter of closing the sale.

The few times we do not have to offer an incentive to close (we generally offer something to most folks, just as a courtesy)... we do some extra work; like spending an extra hour taping up leaks or loose system insulation, them more thorough mastic application.

The end result is the customer feels like we give well over 100% (nobody needs to know it was priced in)... and we get lots of referrals.  And IMO any small business person knows referrals are better than cold called sales!!!

The current young professional thinks they should get a deal (IMO an entitlement mentality... however that would be political, so lets not go there)...
And the way we have our sales structured... they get the impression they got a deal (without us loosing any $$$).
So at the end of the day... it all works out... 

Sure, there are the few who press for too much of a deal... 
Our response is to ask them what they would like to delete from the job... like drop the air filter or the thermostat or downgrade to a lower equipment level.... then just be quiet and look at them (not stare at them, however give them the floor).
Either they will buy or we go on to the next customer.

Generally, given we are almost 100% referral... we only walk a few potential sales a year.


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## Hukshawn

My work is 100% referral. I don't advertise at all. I feel I have a bit of a talent to read people relatively well with even a short conversion. I will adjust my prices accordingly. If I like the person I will give a reasonable deal if the job allows it. If I feel the person is the type of person who will constantly make changes or ask for upgrades without compensating, I will quote high. 
I like giving people deals, I love my work, I like when I can make people happy. I gave one client a $400 break at the end of the job, it cost less than anticipated, I made what I needed to make from the job, so I was happy to give the deal. She cried and hugged me, telling me how I had no idea what that meant at the time. My last client bunked me for $1000 in changes... I charged enough not to lose because she was very sticky with the contract in th4 beginning.


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## GA Gyro

We do not advertise either... the joke is: last years marketing expense was a box of business cards... 

Sometimes when a job really goes well (or the customer was unusually agreeable)... I will comment on how well it went and offer a freebee 'just because'... Did that a couple of weeks ago... upgraded them to a WiFi thermostat (the kind you can monitor/change from you smart phone anywhere).  My added cost was about $25... they really appreciated it... and I think I already have a referral from it...


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## GA Gyro

Back on the TIG subject...
One of the things on my wish list is an Everlast TIG unit...
Not sure which one yet... however I think the 200 series (as opposed to the larger 300 series) will be enough.  
Not sure of the model and accessories yet... that is a research project for when AC season is over (less busy).

When it is time to research... will come on here and ask a bunch of questions.


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## Hukshawn

Haha. I honestly couldn't remember what this thread was about. I got all hot and heavy over client stories. 

Sure could use me a Tig machine about now, honestly. My contractor cap is all aluminum and when built they used 1x2 thin wall tube and only welded on side. Now, 4 years on a lot of the gussets are cracking.


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## GA Gyro

Yeah... I do that (forget what the thread is about) a lot at the heating/AC/refrigeration forum I post at... (looking for a smiley face of an aging person... grin)

Decades ago, I worked out of a box on a truck... before it went away, it had lots of small brackets from the big box store, pop-riveted to the joints in your picture.
Now I work from a Chevy Express 3500 long wheel base van... entire back is built out with custom wood shelves.  All the tools and parts I could ever want...


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## Ski

JimDawson said:


> I haven't tried out the newfangled suitcase inverter welders.  Maybe they're alright, I might be missing something.  I'm still happily using my old Miller Syncrowave 250 that weighs about 300 lbs.  Had it for about 25 years.  It has a lot of knobs to twiddle with, does all kinds of cool stuff to the arc.  I'm sure the new ones are much simpler.  Now if I could just see what I was doing I might be a welder too


I know this is a bit lete but Just read this Jim. I am in same boat as you. I like welding and have cataracts and use a cheater lense plus reading glasses! Biggest help though was getting a good auto helmet. I got a big lense Lincoln Viking. One thing to look at is lense clarity. Helped me a ton with tig and seeing the leading edge of the puddle on mig.


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