# Thoughts on giong the Collet route...



## dfwcnc (Feb 25, 2013)

I was curious as I am running a 3 or 4 jaw chuck, what the advantage would be of running a collet system instead? I plan on turning primarily 1/2 or 3/4 inch material anyway, and if I need to, I can always put the chuck on. Just curious...

Thanks~


----------



## GaryK (Feb 25, 2013)

dfwcnc said:


> I was curious as I am running a 3 or 4 jaw chuck, what the advantage would be of running a collete system instead? I plan on turning primarily 1/2 or 3/4 inch material anyway, and if I need to, I can always put the chuck on. Just curious...
> 
> Thanks~



It's faster, a lot more repeatable than a chuck, less spinning mass, and for common sizes of material collect are off the shelf.
For custom sizes you can get an emergency collet and bore it to whatever size you wanted to.

There are a lot other types of collets available also.

These are some of the things that are good about a collet system.


You can also make your own. I describe mine HERE.

Gary


----------



## dfwcnc (Feb 25, 2013)

Yeah, that sounds attractive. Every time I take a piece of work out of the chuck, it never goes back in the same way leaving me warbly. Where can I get a set or kit, do you know?


----------



## Ray C (Feb 25, 2013)

I tend to like collets and think they're very useful for shafts which you cannot drill a center hole (to spin between centers) or are already have a nice finish but need a little modification.  All my 4J chucks have hardened jaws that leave bite marks.  There are ways around that but just went a different route with the collet chuck.  Like any any other, collet chucks need to be properly fitted or you could always make or buy a 5C spindle adapter and collet closer and skip the chuck.

Even good collets have a little run-out but marking the piece with a landmark increases your odds of re-chucking it within a half thou -or even better.  It really depends on the quality of the collets and if you've actually removed the collet from it's fixture.

Couple thoughts...  If you go that route, completely avoid using a collet too small for the shaft and attempting to clamp it tight.  The collet could get stuck and it could deform the very outer lip of the inner hole.  A full set in 1/64 steps is ideal.  Also, the bore will get scored-up if you work on scaly metal so, I only put clean stock in them.

BTW:  I got mine from shars.  After proper mounting the needle on the TDI doesn't move. Not bad for something like 125 bucks -as I recall.

Ray


----------



## DMS (Feb 26, 2013)

Independent jaw chucks are notoriously unrepeatable. If you remove the work, don't plan on getting it back in the same way again. You can get things dialed in dead on with an independent jaw chuck (at the expense of time). Collets are another option. Usually more expensive, they are nice because they have good concentricity, and they grip over a large area, which is nice for thin or fragile items (they mar less than a chuck).

There are a TON of different types of chucks out there. Probably the most popular for workholding in a lathe is the 5c collet. This is what you seen on Hardinge lathes (they invented them, or purchased the company that did, can't remember), and the spindle of those machines is a match. You can also get lots of accessories that use them on the mill (spin indexers, collet blocks, etc). They are also common, so you can probably pick them up used on E-bay if you are patient. The downside of them is that they have a very small clamping range, so you need a lot of them to cover the full range. 

It somewhat comes down to what type of lathe you have. In any case, you will need a collet chuck, which you can make or buy.


----------



## Tony Wells (Feb 26, 2013)

I've never been a big fan of collet work, but the real advantage is in doing work that starts as a standard size round (or hex, or square, depending on the collet), is relatively short, and perhaps needs to be held on a finished surface for a secondary operation. Of course, collets have a limit on the size stock you can work with, so they really shine only on a limited range, smaller than many parts some of use need to make. I guess that's one of the reasons I don't have a serious need for them. And I am not one for swapping chucks around on machines on a whim. I have a good quality 3 jaw on by newer lathe, and a so-so 3 jaw on the older Monarch. For the same basic reasons people use collets, I prefer to use soft jaws that replace the bolt-on top jaws on the 3 jaw chucks. When properly prepared, their runout is practically nonexistant. It has the advantage over collets in that the size is not limited to something on the order of >1.00". More like the capacity of the chuck in normal use. Plus the same methodology can be used for ID chucking. 

In general though, proper planning of the job can eliminate most instances of the need for accurate chucking to the point of needing a collet. If working to a drawing, the sequence can generally be set up to turn all the features that must run true together at the same chucking. Granted, the part generally will need machining on both ends, but in my experience, there is ample concentricity tolerance for a typical chuck to be used without undue worry. But if the requirements are stiff, soft jaws to the rescue again. Near zero runout is not difficult to achieve. Soft jaws can be shop made, or purchased commercially made for just about any chuck with 2 piece jaws.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of using collets. I believe they have a place in many shops. But they are rarely a necessity, at least in my experience. They can make some jobs simpler, and faster, but this is supposed to be a hobby for most of the guys here, and collets provide the greatest benefits in a production shop. I worked a turret lathe with collets at McEvoy here back in the 70's. I ran hundreds, if not thousands of valve stems with the collet machine, and there would be no comparison with any other means of workholding. But in my shop, since I do exclusively R&D and prototype work, usually of odd sized parts a little larger than collet systems support, I haven't any use for them at present. I do have a set (most of one, anyway) of 5C collets for a future project - a tool grinder. I suppose that if I had a need, I would build a chuck that uses them, but I really hate disturbing a well running 3 jaw.


----------



## Ray C (Feb 26, 2013)

Sorry about the temporary hijack here...

Tony,  Would you mind mentioning what brand/model of 3J you have that's running good & true?  Mine is OK, between 2 and 3 thou but closer would be better.  Have thought about tweaking it but I haven't had much luck doing that with others in the past.

Thanks

Ray


----------



## wa5cab (Feb 26, 2013)

dfwcnc,

It might be well, since no one else has mentioned this, to back up and say that what kind of collets are practical for use depends upon what size of machine you have or expect to have.  Second, a collet chuck is a relatively complicated widget that attaches to the spindle in the same manner as any other chuck and generally is tightened with a T-handle wrench.  Everything else is more commonly called a collet closer (except with MT collets which fit the native spindle taper and only require a drawbar) and are either lever and drawtube or handwheel and drawtube actuated.  So what machine are we talking about?  Several threads ago, you mentioned having an Atlas 618 but asked about a Myford.

Robert D.


----------



## GaryK (Feb 26, 2013)

5C collets aren't limited by when can fit through the collet. You can get clutch collets up to 6" in diameter for large shallow items.




You can also take these and machine square or offset parts in the mill to hold them in the lathe.
They also make collets for holding on to the ID of parts. 

You can also use them on the tool post of your lathe to hold endmills Like I did here:




5C collets are very versatile. These are just some of the things you can do with them.

Gary


----------



## Tony Wells (Feb 26, 2013)

Gary, if I'm not mistaken, the make is "Strong". It's not a big name, I suppose, but it's a 10" that came with the lathe when I bought it new. It's never been off, and never wrecked. I'm beginning to see a little "spring" if I don't use the entire length of jaw, but I can just toss a piece of round stock in and I'm surprised if it's more than 0.0015 or so. I do use almost exclusively the marked primary pinion for tightening, and have pulled the jaws and solvent washed the scroll regularly, and kept it lubed. If I ever replace it, it will probably be a Buck 6 jaw Set-Tru, but I don't envision that any time soon. That chuck is about 15 years old now, I believe. I could probably touch it up with a TPG, but it is still plenty accurate for my work.


I am in no way putting down collets, and as I said, not trying to talk anyone out of going that route, but just pointing out some alternatives, and some of what I consider weak points that can easily be accommodated with soft jaws. Both have their places, and it comes down to what kind of work you want to do. Kind of in the same vein as the thread on what doesn't make you a machinist. Collets are not a cure-all or panacea for lathe workholding. And there are many things that you cannot do with them that you can easily do with a self centering chuck.


----------



## GaryK (Feb 26, 2013)

Tony Wells said:


> Gary, if I'm not mistaken, the make is "Strong". It's not a big name, I suppose, but it's a 10" that came with the lathe when I bought it new. It's never been off, and never wrecked. I'm beginning to see a little "spring" if I don't use the entire length of jaw, but I can just toss a piece of round stock in and I'm surprised if it's more than 0.0015 or so. I do use almost exclusively the marked primary pinion for tightening, and have pulled the jaws and solvent washed the scroll regularly, and kept it lubed. If I ever replace it, it will probably be a Buck 6 jaw Set-Tru, but I don't envision that any time soon. That chuck is about 15 years old now, I believe. I could probably touch it up with a TPG, but it is still plenty accurate for my work.
> 
> 
> I am in no way putting down collets, and as I said, not trying to talk anyone out of going that route, but just pointing out some alternatives, and some of what I consider weak points that can easily be accommodated with soft jaws. Both have their places, and it comes down to what kind of work you want to do. Kind of in the same vein as the thread on what doesn't make you a machinist. Collets are not a cure-all or panacea for lathe workholding. And there are many things that you cannot do with them that you can easily do with a self centering chuck.



Tony, I'm sorry, but I think you took something I wrote, wrong. In fact I didn't read the other postings after my initial post. I just saw this back at the top of the list and remembered some other things that I liked about collets, hence may last post. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

Gary


----------



## Tony Wells (Feb 26, 2013)

Gary,
 don't worry about it. I was only trying to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. No harm, no foul.


----------



## Ray C (Feb 26, 2013)

Tony...  Thanks.

I think you got your moderators mixed up.  I was the one asking about the make of your chuck.   I review so many threads, I get names mixed up too.  BTW:  I love the convenience of a 3J!

OK.  End of hijack.

Back to topic....  I totally agree and don't think you were putting anything down -just adding a different viewpoint -and a totally correct one at that.  Collets are not the cure-all to end-all.  As we've all mentioned, they have their application and shine in some areas and fall-flat in others.  When I get boat shafts, it's usually 2-3 at a time and they're all the same dia and the motor end is finished.  -Perfect application for collet.


Ray





Tony Wells said:


> Gary, if I'm not mistaken, the make is "Strong". It's not a big name, I suppose, but it's a 10" that came with the lathe when I bought it new. It's never been off, and never wrecked. I'm beginning to see a little "spring" if I don't use the entire length of jaw, but I can just toss a piece of round stock in and I'm surprised if it's more than 0.0015 or so. I do use almost exclusively the marked primary pinion for tightening, and have pulled the jaws and solvent washed the scroll regularly, and kept it lubed. If I ever replace it, it will probably be a Buck 6 jaw Set-Tru, but I don't envision that any time soon. That chuck is about 15 years old now, I believe. I could probably touch it up with a TPG, but it is still plenty accurate for my work.
> 
> 
> I am in no way putting down collets, and as I said, not trying to talk anyone out of going that route, but just pointing out some alternatives, and some of what I consider weak points that can easily be accommodated with soft jaws. Both have their places, and it comes down to what kind of work you want to do. Kind of in the same vein as the thread on what doesn't make you a machinist. Collets are not a cure-all or panacea for lathe workholding. And there are many things that you cannot do with them that you can easily do with a self centering chuck.


----------



## dfwcnc (Feb 26, 2013)

Excellent.  Can you link me??



Ray C said:


> Couple thoughts...  If you go that route, completely avoid using a collet too small for the shaft and attempting to clamp it tight.  The collet could get stuck and it could deform the very outer lip of the inner hole.  A full set in 1/64 steps is ideal.  Also, the bore will get scored-up if you work on scaly metal so, I only put clean stock in them.
> 
> BTW:  I got mine from shars.  After proper mounting the needle on the TDI doesn't move. Not bad for something like 125 bucks -as I recall.
> 
> Ray



I have an Atlas chuck (4-jaw) and a Buck Chuck (3-jaw).  I use the Buck as it's nicer and easier to use and center.  And like you say, they are leaving bad marks on my work piece which are unacceptable.  The largest diameter I'll be working with (for collets) would be 3/4, and that seems to be an issue. 



DMS said:


> Independent jaw chucks are notoriously unrepeatable. If you remove the work, don't plan on getting it back in the same way again. You can get things dialed in dead on with an independent jaw chuck (at the expense of time). Collets are another option. Usually more expensive, they are nice because they have good concentricity, and they grip over a large area, which is nice for thin or fragile items (they mar less than a chuck).
> 
> There are a TON of different types of chucks out there. Probably the most popular for workholding in a lathe is the 5c collet. This is what you seen on Hardinge lathes (they invented them, or purchased the company that did, can't remember), and the spindle of those machines is a match. You can also get lots of accessories that use them on the mill (spin indexers, collet blocks, etc). They are also common, so you can probably pick them up used on E-bay if you are patient. The downside of them is that they have a very small clamping range, so you need a lot of them to cover the full range.
> 
> It somewhat comes down to what type of lathe you have. In any case, you will need a collet chuck, which you can make or buy.



Happy to, I have an Atlas 618 with a three-phase motor (1750rpms max) being run by a VFD, new lead screw and half nut and rear gear along with other small parts.  It runs really well.  I was asking about a Myford and have decided to look for the "Super 7" in addition to my Atlas.  I am interested in both the MT Collets and the Collet Chuck.  Which ever gives me the largest hole, and the most options.  




wa5cab said:


> dfwcnc,
> 
> It might be well, since no one else has mentioned this, to back up and say that what kind of collets are practical for use depends upon what size of machine you have or expect to have.  Second, a collet chuck is a relatively complicated widget that attaches to the spindle in the same manner as any other chuck and generally is tightened with a T-handle wrench.  Everything else is more commonly called a collet closer (except with MT collets which fit the native spindle taper and only require a drawbar) and are either lever and drawtube or handwheel and drawtube actuated.  So what machine are we talking about?  Several threads ago, you mentioned having an Atlas 618 but asked about a Myford.
> 
> Robert D.



That looks nice.  I wonder if those would work on an Atlas?  



GaryK said:


> 5C collets aren't limited by when can fit through the collet. You can get clutch collets up to 6" in diameter for large shallow items.
> 
> View attachment 48217
> 
> ...


----------



## Ray C (Feb 26, 2013)

dfwcnc said:


> Excellent. Can you link me??
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## GaryK (Feb 26, 2013)

dfwcnc said:


> That looks nice.  I wonder if those would work on an Atlas?



I had a 5C collet chuck on my Atlas.

You can see it on the bottom shelf  on the left next to the milling attachment. You can also see my 3AT collets on the shelf under the lathe bed.


----------



## stevecmo (Feb 26, 2013)

I'll cast a vote for ER collets.  You can make your own ER collet chuck on your lathe.  That was the first semi-complicated thing I made.  It's also good experience requiring internal and external threading and taper turning.  It's really not that difficult if you take your time with it.

To me the advantage of the ER collets is they allow long stock to pass thru the collet and spindle.

Just something else to ponder.

Steve


----------



## kd4gij (Feb 26, 2013)

+1 on the er collets. I made an ER40 collet chuck for my craftsman 12" lathe. Er32 would probly be fine for a 6". ER collets have a little wider range than outhers and alot more clamping force as thay stay parallel to the work piece.


----------



## Ray C (Feb 26, 2013)

Are the ER type suitable for holding endmills?

Ray



kd4gij said:


> +1 on the er collets. I made an ER40 collet chuck for my craftsman 12" lathe. Er32 would probly be fine for a 6". ER collets have a little wider range than outhers and alot more clamping force as thay stay parallel to the work piece.


----------



## stevecmo (Feb 27, 2013)

Ray,

Good question.  The one drawback to the ER collets is that they really need whatever they're holding to be the full length of the collet for "maximum" holding strength.  So it kind of depends on the length of the end mill.  Having said that, I have used my ER-40 with end mills on my lathe on aluminum several times.  Haven't tried it on steel but I think it would be fine light cuts - which you probably want when milling on a lathe anyway.

When I do light milling on my mini lathe, I use a shop made end mill holder with a set screw to  prevent any slippage.

Steve


----------



## DMS (Feb 27, 2013)

ER collets are used very frequently for toolholding. 

Like so http://www.maritool.com/Tool-Holders-BT-40/c23_26/index.html.


----------



## kd4gij (Feb 27, 2013)

ER collets will hold an endmill much tighter than any draw bar type collet made like R8, 5c, 3c, 3at. I have never had a bit pull out of an ER collet and I use them in rotery transfer machines and screw machines for production.


----------



## Ray C (Feb 27, 2013)

Thanks for the ER info...  I'm curious about them.  I get along fine with individual endmill holders and R8 collets and drill chucks but sometimes wonder if going to ER could save a little time reaching-up for the drawbar.  I do my best to plan-out my ops to minimize drawbar time but, you know how that goes sometimes...

I'm wondering about the profile/diameter of the holder and if it's a good match for the tight spaces on the mill bed.  The thought also occurs to me that an ER adapted to the tailstock RAM on the lathe could be useful.

Not ready to make a move on this, just thinking it over...


Ray


----------



## itsme_Bernie (Feb 27, 2013)

Hey df-

I also use Morse #2 draw collets in my Atlas 618.  That is the actual spindle bore.

I fashioned a drawbar from a long 3/8in bolt (if I remember correctly) and turned a piece of delrin to center the left end of the spindle and retrofitted a handle.  I can show a pic if you like.

The capacity is 1/2 inch, with the one drawback that you can't fit work through the spindle with out a hollow drawbar.  But nice not to have to work with a chuck.

I use 5C in my SB Heavy and Hardinge Mill.


Bernie


----------

