# Need some help spending my March 2015 budget!  Help a newbie out!  Thanks!



## Earlkonig (Oct 16, 2014)

Hey guys!  I will be getting in to the awesome hobby of machining.  My experience level is basically none.  I have done some drilling with a mill/drill at work.  I have a 4x6 bandsaw, a welding machine, a harbor freight 13" drill press, and many other various tools.  I have been looking at this point for 1.5 yrs at my many options.  I have looked at some CNC options and don't think it's an option ATM.  I want a good lathe and mill.  A RF45 is the minimum I will go for a bench mill.  I would like a dro for both, but I need tooling, vises, turn table, dial indicators, test indicators and everything else.  I am not expecting anyone to list everything one would need to get started, I just want you guys keep that I mind when suggesting tools.  The budget is $10K and nothing will be added for a while since I had to negotiate this budget with my wife.  I don't think she will be receptive to adding other machine cost any time soon.  I will be making this purchase April 2015 so I still have plenty of time to do more research.  I will be cross posting this between the Precision Matthews forum so let's keep this centered on Grizzly products if possible.  Thanks for your time and help!


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 16, 2014)

I'll bite. G0755 mill and G4003G lathe. Those are what I chose and would do it again with yours or my budget. The mill has power X travel, Z elevation motor, is incredibly smooth and accurate not to mention powerful. The lathe has a Norton gearbox that handles all American threads without gear changes making it a breeze for 99% of what I need to do. It also runs very smooth. 
Throw in a couple of DRO Pros and you'll still have $2-2.5K for accessories and tooling. You'll want a vise (G7154), rotary table w/ dividing plates and tailstock (H7527). Get a 3" face mill from Glacern. Check Ebay, Shar's etc. for a R8 shank ER 32 collet set to hold end mills (There are good deals floating around for these). Next, hit Enco for Fly cutter holders with your 20% off coupon and free shipping. Throw in some Enco web deal Interstate brand roughing end mills, tin coated cobalt in 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4". Get one 3/4" end mill in finishing cut. Get a couple finisher end mills in various sizes as well. Maybe some small end mills. If there is room left in the budget, a better drill chuck for both the lathe and mill would be in order. (The stock ones are okay but only okay) Other requirements are oil cans, oil (I picked up 5 gallons each of Mobil DTE light and Vactra 2 on the Enco order which takes care of machine and way needs.) Desirables include a ER40 chuck for the lathe (I think the range of each collet is better than the 5-C way I headed). What else? :thinking:

Dave

Edit: Oh yeah, don't forget calipers and mics.


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 16, 2014)

WOW Dave!  I appreciate your thorough response.  How do you like the G0755?  My only real concern with the G0755 is lowering the head for milling operations.  Any issues?


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 16, 2014)

I love the mill. I'm surprised at how quiet the gear head is. It doesn't have a power down feed rather the motor moves the head to position it so you can mill using the quill.  Saves your cranking arm but the crank is there if you need the exercise. The fit and finish is immaculate,  the ways are smooth through full travel. It holds tram perfectly.  I've cut a ton of steel and it handles it flawlessly. I've only milled aluminum once but it didn't know anything was on it, it was that easy.  The only thing that isn't top shelf quality is a label on the stand that looks like it was done on one of those Cricut label cutters, just cheap looking.  Maybe some day I will mill a real label for it.

Dave


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 17, 2014)

dave2176 said:


> I love the mill. I'm surprised at how quiet the gear head is. It doesn't have a power down feed rather the motor moves the head to position it so you can mill using the quill.  Saves your cranking arm but the crank is there if you need the exercise. The fit and finish is immaculate,  the ways are smooth through full travel. It holds tram perfectly.  I've cut a ton of steel and it handles it flawlessly. I've only milled aluminum once but it didn't know anything was on it, it was that easy.  The only thing that isn't top shelf quality is a label on the stand that looks like it was done on one of those Cricut label cutters, just cheap looking.  Maybe some day I will mill a real label for it.
> 
> Dave



Awesome info Dave.  Just a question out of ignorance.  Would it be possible to manual lower the head for a said milling op and keep the quill locked?


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 17, 2014)

Yes but I don't know why you would do that.  The quill has coarse and fine down feed, stop adjustment and a lock you can engage at any time. 
Dave


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 17, 2014)

On a side note u have been eyeing a g9901 and a g0609 lathe to save me some cash.  Would I regret going with a smaller lathe to get a larger mill?  ATM most my projects are more mill oriented than lathe, but I know I need a lathe for various processes.


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 17, 2014)

I would love a G9901. George Wilson would tell you the lathe is more important. I would be sad if I had less lathe. If I did start with a smaller lathe I would do so with the plan to later get the G4003G or the PM1340GT or G0709 (these features are important). I would then CNC the little lathe  like jumps4 did.

Dave


----------



## HighWall (Oct 17, 2014)

Earlkonig said:


> On a side note u have been eyeing a g9901 and a g0609 lathe to save me some cash.  Would I regret going with a smaller lathe to get a larger mill?  ATM most my projects are more mill oriented than lathe, but I know I need a lathe for various processes.




You mentioned having an interest in gunsmithing in the PM forum.  If that's the case and you will only have one lathe, I'd consider the G4003G as the minimum.  Anything smaller and you will have difficulty doing work on rifle barrels.

I have a G4003G and it's quite a nice tool.


----------



## zmotorsports (Oct 17, 2014)

Subscribed.  

I don't have a lot of knowledge of Grizzly machines, I just want to follow along with the thread.


----------



## Chip (Oct 17, 2014)

A G4003G will likely be in my garage once I discover a 10% coupon code that works.


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 17, 2014)

HighWall said:


> You mentioned having an interest in gunsmithing in the PM forum.  If that's the case and you will only have one lathe, I'd consider the G4003G as the minimum.  Anything smaller and you will have difficulty doing work on rifle barrels.
> 
> I have a G4003G and it's quite a nice tool.



what about the G0695 and the g4003g lathe? Any thoughts??


----------



## kd4gij (Oct 17, 2014)

_*March 2015 budget


*_ If you buy a Lathe and or mill. You can kiss the outher 11 mounths budget good by. :roflmao:



 It is a sickness and there is no cure. Once you the first machine tool there is no turning back.:nono:


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 17, 2014)

kd4gij said:


> _*March 2015 budget
> 
> 
> *_ If you buy a Lathe and or mill. You can kiss the outher 11 mounths budget good by. :roflmao:
> ...



LOL I have heard this to be true.  LOL Dont tell the misses.


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 17, 2014)

Earlkonig said:


> what about the G0695 and the g4003g lathe? Any thoughts??


Excellent,  but that would put you at $7,800. Spend say $1,500 at DRO Pros to equip each with a DRO and I don't think you have enough to tool them up. 
The  G0755 weighs a few pounds more than the G0695 and I promise you that it can cut just as well as its Taiwan relative and you won't have to spend another $500 to add power feed to the X.

Dave


----------



## kd4gij (Oct 17, 2014)

I love my G0704 I bought it before the price wen't up. But at the price of the mills your looking at, You could get a used Bridge Port mill with dro and some tooling for the same or less money and have a much better machine.


----------



## coolidge (Oct 17, 2014)

Lathe - I chose the Grizzly G4003G and tricked her out with a DroPros EL400 DRO. I'm super happy with both. When shopping lathes consider the spindle cam lock, the G4003G has an upgraded D1-5 cam lock spindle vs the G4003 which has a D1-4. The D1-5 has 5 stout cam locks vs the D1-4 which has 3 smaller cam locks. Also compare spindle through bores the G4003G is a bit larger. There were a few flaws though I wasn't expecting perfection... 

1. CHINA can't paint for ..... I had to finish painting the green stand myself. I'm talking areas of bare primer. Ace Hardware had rattle can paint that was spot on the same color hammered green paint, maybe 30 minutes to prep and paint and problem solved.

2. While the assembly was very good overall the motor installation was horrible. The motor was bolted on crooked, they drilled the motor bracket so far off to one side they had to extend the motor pulley half off the motor shaft to line up the belts AND the motor pulley was machined so poorly it wobbled on the shaft like a cartoon. Grizzly replaced the motor pulley, the replacement was perfect. I re-drilled and tapped the motor bracket to shift the motor over so that the motor pulley was not hanging half off the shaft and aligned everything square. A few hours of my time but I beam with accomplishment every time I walk by it.

 3. I feel the stand is too tall, so does my 20 year machinist brother. Its also too shallow front to back, there is a tip over danger especially if you install leveling pads which results in an even shallower foot print. I plan to make a new stand for it.

Mill - I just spent a few months pouring over mill options. Recommend you give serious consideration to work cube, spindle rpm, gear vs belt drive, and available upgrade options. I considered the G0755, the G0722, several of the Grizzly knee mills, and similar offerings from other brands. I eliminated the knee mills due to lack of mobility and the difficulty in containing the mess they make vs I can sufficiently enclose a bench top mill to contain the mess and its not so big that I can't raise the leveling pads and move it around on casters. When the smoke cleared I opted for the Charter Oak 12z $2,350. 

Factors...

1. Largest work cube of all the bench top mills at 12x26 inches conservatively.
2. 3 hp VFD option yields variable speed 0-3,600 rpm. The VFD is a Danfoss.
3. 2 speed belt drive option yields variable speed 0-5,300 rpm with VFD option above and less noise. Spindle bearings are rated to 7,000 rpm.
4. Designed with CNC conversion in mind (longer discussion).
5. Since they were out of the stock 3 hp motors mine shipped with a 3 hp Leeson continuous duty inverter rated motor.


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 17, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Lathe - I chose the Grizzly G4003G and tricked her out with a DroPros EL400 DRO. I'm super happy with both. When shopping lathes consider the spindle cam lock, the G4003G has an upgraded D1-5 cam lock spindle vs the G4003 which has a D1-4. The D1-5 has 5 stout cam locks vs the D1-4 which has 3 smaller cam locks. Also compare spindle through bores the G4003G is a bit larger. There were a few flaws though I wasn't expecting perfection...
> 
> 1. CHINA can't paint for ..... I had to finish painting the green stand myself. I'm talking areas of bare primer. Ace Hardware had rattle can paint that was spot on the same color hammered green paint, maybe 30 minutes to prep and paint and problem solved.
> 
> ...



I think I read your mill thread.  I have considered the 12z, but past quality issues scare the crap out of me.  I have talked with the new owners a year ago and they seem to offer good customer support.  How are the ways?  Also heard the Z axis would bind at the top and bottom while being loose in the middle.


----------



## mksj (Oct 17, 2014)

[FONT=&quot]It all a matter of the budget, and at 10K for everything there needs to be some compromises. I currently own a PM1340GT and an Optimum BF-30, but I did a lot of research previously on both mills and lathes in your budget range.  I can recommend the 1340GT, but not the BF-30 at its current price. If you're looking at Grizzly machines, I  would recommend their G0720R Mill and G4003G lathe. The G0720R is a Sieg SX4 (at 3.5K), there is a nice review here http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Reviews/SX4/sx4-rvw.htm , add the base or build your own and save a few$$. I would consider the G0720R a step up from the generic RF45 type mills, the variable speed is really nice and not having to deal with the gear head is a real plus. The Z axis power feed is great, I added one to my mill. Consider including the X-axis power feed if you're not going CNC, once you use one you will never go back. The G4003G is probably the quintessential 12x36 gunsmith lathe, and comes with many costly accessories in the gunsmith version. At 3.5K delivered, it will save you well over 2K for a comparable Taiwanese version (Eissen 12x36 or PM1340GT).[/FONT][FONT=&quot] There are many branded versions of this mill, but Grizzly offers a very nice package and the stability of a well known company.

Consider an Easson ES-12 DRO ($600-700) for the mill, and if needed an Easson 8A ($500) for the lathe. The cost difference between and Easson and a generic Sino is small in comparison the quality/warranty and usability. Consider Grizzly for your additional items or a vendor like Shar's if you want decent quality and pricing. You will get the basics, but nothing fancy, otherwise look at flea markets, auctions....

Save 5% on your Grizzly order if you are a first time buyer. Usually if you request a hard copy catalog, there is a printed number on the back for this discount, pays for the shipping[/FONT]. Get the basic tooling, and add on a later date as the budget and experience permits.


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 17, 2014)

mksj said:


> [FONT=&amp]It all a matter of the budget, and at 10K for everything there needs to be some compromises. I currently own a PM1340GT and an Optimum BF-30, but I did a lot of research previously on both mills and lathes in your budget range.  I can recommend the 1340GT, but not the BF-30 at its current price. If you're looking at Grizzly machines, I  would recommend their G0720R Mill and G4003G lathe. The G0720R is a Sieg SX4 (at 3.5K), there is a nice review here http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Reviews/SX4/sx4-rvw.htm , add the base or build your own and save a few$$. I would consider the G0720R a step up from the generic RF45 type mills, the variable speed is really nice and not having to deal with the gear head is a real plus. The Z axis power feed is great, I added one to my mill. Consider including the X-axis power feed if you're not going CNC, once you use one you will never go back. The G4003G is probably the quintessential 12x36 gunsmith lathe, and comes with many costly accessories in the gunsmith version. At 3.5K delivered, it will save you well over 2K for a comparable Taiwanese version (Eissen 12x36 or PM1340GT).[/FONT][FONT=&amp] There are many branded versions of this mill, but Grizzly offers a very nice package and the stability of a well known company.
> 
> Consider an Easson ES-12 DRO ($600-700) for the mill, and if needed an Easson 8A ($500) for the lathe. The cost difference between and Easson and a generic Sino is small in comparison the quality/warranty and usability. Consider Grizzly for your additional items or a vendor like Shar's if you want decent quality and pricing. You will get the basics, but nothing fancy, otherwise look at flea markets, auctions....
> 
> Save 5% on your Grizzly order if you are a first time buyer. Usually if you request a hard copy catalog, there is a printed number on the back for this discount, pays for the shipping[/FONT]. Get the basic tooling, and add on a later date as the budget and experience permits.



The only issue I see with the G0722 is the cost.  For $300.00 more I can get the G0695 and that stretches my budget even thinner.  I would probably choose not to put a dro on one or both machines if I go this route.  I have actually like the G0722 a lot minus the slow spinal speeds.  What about the G0762?  It is new this year and has a variable speed motor setup on it.  It also has a power feed on the x axis.  I can build a stand or buy grizzly's so that isn't an issue either way.  I would actually build one since I am 6'5" tall.


----------



## brav65 (Oct 18, 2014)

I have just gone through the mill purchase process.  I started off looking at the LMS Mini Mill then went on the the GO704 then the G0759, then could not stand the wait time for the Grizzly so I got a Precision Mathews PM-25MV.  Machine is great, typical Chinese shortcoming, poor paint, incorrect adjustment...  The machine is cleaned up and adjusted and runs great and is very quiet with the belt drive.  The Mill, DRO and similar tooling that Dave mentioned above put me very close to $3500.  Give Matt a call to see if he can offer you some package pricing on a Mill/Lathe combo.  The PM45 looks like a great mill and is very popular.  Good Luck!


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 18, 2014)

I think the 0722 spins to slow, I don't see where all the money is in it when compared to others.  The 0762 is nice but the price difference between it and the 0755 seems high when you lose the stand.  You could easily add a VFD and 3 phase motor down the road as situations permit. I would suggest doing all you can to get a DRO on both right out the gate.

BTW, when Coolidge reported his trouble with the motor mounting and pulley I promptly inspected mine and found all in order. Obviously someone was having a bad day but it doesn't seem to be the standard. 

Dave


----------



## mksj (Oct 18, 2014)

The g0722 tops out at the same speed as the geared RF45 clones, yes it could be better if faster, but depends on the material. When I asked about the low speed, I was told you can still cut alot of material with this machine. My BF-30 goes to 3000 rpm, but the head gets too hot and it sounds like its going to explode.  The G0762 looks interesting also. Lots of choices, unfortunaly QC is a major issue with many of these machines when you start reading postings.


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 18, 2014)

The G0755 rf45 clone will hit 1970 rpm with a 1720 motor. Put the 3600 rpm motor and VFD Coolidge is getting on his 12z and it would be impressive. 

Dave


----------



## coolidge (Oct 18, 2014)

I was pretty excited about all the G0722 features but one of the things that scared me off was all the electronics, just what is the life expectancy of those boards and components.


----------



## coolidge (Oct 18, 2014)

dave2176 said:


> The G0755 rf45 clone will hit 1970 rpm with a 1720 motor. Put the 3600 rpm motor and VFD Coolidge is getting on his 12z and it would be impressive.
> 
> Dave



Are the bearings rated for that speed though? I know CO changes the bearings in all their mills, they are rated for 7,000 rpms. Just saying I looked seriously at the G0755, if only it had more X and Y travel I needed 25x10.5 for one of my projects.


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 18, 2014)

So it looks like I will be getting a rf45 clone and a 12x36 lathe, unless a great deal on used equipment falls into my lap. At least now I can cad out my garage space and prepare for next march!  Quick question about the g0750.  Is the gear box with it similar to the one on the pm1236?  I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just wanted to take advantage of the knowledgable audience. Thanks!


----------



## markknx (Oct 19, 2014)

No matter who you go with or what you get if you are going to buy from one source ask for a package deal, free shipping, through in some things for free. and don't be afraid to hang up, you can always call back later and place the order. Also I'm not sure that you need 7000rpms for a home hobby shop Not knocking a machine that can do this or saying it could not be used, just saying is it that important for a home hobby shop. Also I would like to know where 7000rpm would be used. The last thing I would add here is DROs are nice I have them on my mill. best thing I did for it no more counting turns of the crank. I do not have DRO on my lathe The only place on it where I realy wish I had it is on the carriage. The point here is they can be added latter as can a roto table if needed. Also remember you will soon have a machine shop where you can make alot of your own tools. Things I have made and seen guys make Like roto tables, ball turners, roto broaches, vises, angle plates it can all be made over time. For sure you will need a good selection of end mills, a good set of drill bits, some hss blanks (a grinder if you do not have one) Some cheep brazed lathe tools as you will destroy some of these learning. some mics, calipars, vise, Clamping set, parrallel set, reamers, edge finders, center drills, boring bars, an er collet set or end mill holders, DTI,  DI, Squares. these are what I consider must haves. I would also add taps and dies. I'm sure there are some must have that I did not think of and I am sure others will bring them up. Be sureto keep 500 for the few things you realize you missed. Good luck and have fun. When you get set up we will all want to see pics of the shop and your projects.


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 19, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Are the bearings rated for that speed though? I know CO changes the bearings in all their mills, they are rated for 7,000 rpms. Just saying I looked seriously at the G0755, if only it had more X and Y travel I needed 25x10.5 for one of my projects.



I have no doubt that the bearings will take the rpm. Maybe a little concern about the gears but if I thought there might be an issue a belt drive would be fairly easy to do.


----------



## dave2176 (Oct 19, 2014)

Earlkonig said:


> So it looks like I will be getting a rf45 clone and a 12x36 lathe, unless a great deused equipment falls into my lap. At least now I can cad out my garage space and prepare for next march!  Quick question about the g0750.  Is the gear box with it similar to the one on the pm1236?  I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just wanted to take advantage of the knowledgable audience. Thanks!



The gear box on both of these was the decision maker for me. I wanteda finer feed and the ability to cut all american threads without deali g with change gears. I'm glad I did the G4003G. Im all over the place with threading.

Dave


----------



## Earlkonig (Oct 19, 2014)

markknx said:


> No matter who you go with or what you get if you are going to buy from one source ask for a package deal, free shipping, through in some things for free. and don't be afraid to hang up, you can always call back later and place the order. Also I'm not sure that you need 7000rpms for a home hobby shop Not knocking a machine that can do this or saying it could not be used, just saying is it that important for a home hobby shop. Also I would like to know where 7000rpm would be used. The last thing I would add here is DROs are nice I have them on my mill. best thing I did for it no more counting turns of the crank. I do not have DRO on my lathe The only place on it where I realy wish I had it is on the carriage. The point here is they can be added latter as can a roto table if needed. Also remember you will soon have a machine shop where you can make alot of your own tools. Things I have made and seen guys make Like roto tables, ball turners, roto broaches, vises, angle plates it can all be made over time. For sure you will need a good selection of end mills, a good set of drill bits, some hss blanks (a grinder if you do not have one) Some cheep brazed lathe tools as you will destroy some of these learning. some mics, calipars, vise, Clamping set, parrallel set, reamers, edge finders, center drills, boring bars, an er collet set or end mill holders, DTI,  DI, Squares. these are what I consider must haves. I would also add taps and dies. I'm sure there are some must have that I did not think of and I am sure others will bring them up. Be sureto keep 500 for the few things you realize you missed. Good luck and have fun. When you get set up we will all want to see pics of the shop and your projects.



Marknx this is some great info.  When I get closer to the ok purchase date I will definitely make a thread documenting this journey.  For now my garage will be my shop.  I had a budget that wad originally three time larger than I have now and I was going to build an insulated heated and cooled shop, but this year my work just announced we have seven years left for work.  Atleast with the budget I have now I can will save this up after one year without impacting my family budget.  If the work sutuation changes then I can build my shop and add some more goodies to my machine tool collection.  The list of things you guus have provided I am going to make an excel check sheet.  That way I know I won't miss something and what to buy off ebay and other retailers.  Thanks!


----------



## coolidge (Oct 19, 2014)

markknx said:


> Also I would like to know where 7000rpm would be used.



Machinable wax, a hoard of plastics including polyethylene, polypropylene, Nylon, polyurethane, ABS to name a few.


----------



## markknx (Oct 20, 2014)

I would have thought turning it that fast would cause heat problems I guess not. I will have to try turning it faster. I have had some success in about 900 rpms With a really sharp bit on nylon and HDPE.
Thanks Mark


----------



## coolidge (Oct 20, 2014)

Not with flood coolant, only problem is some of these plastics float which creates a chip mess Aluminum also benefits from higher spindle speeds, machining 3D molds which is time consuming. High speed machining taking lighter cuts at higher spindle and feed speeds, Gibbscam has a new high speed machining option that reduces cycle time on pockets by 40%. Plus if you are going to crash CRASH BIG lol!


----------



## johnwell (Jan 15, 2015)

coolidge said:


> ................. Just saying I looked seriously at the G0755, if only it had more X and Y travel I needed 25x10.5 for one of my projects.



Sounds like all you needed was a swivel base for yer vise...problems solved....kinda..:lmao::lmao:

John

(I'm going for the G0755) )


----------



## Earlkonig (Jun 5, 2015)

I am purchasing a mill tomorrow!  I found a lightly used/like new grizzly g0731 with a drop installed for $2500.  I will pick it up tomorrow morning.


----------



## markknx (Jun 6, 2015)

You Know we will want photos! Congrats.
Mark


----------



## Earlkonig (Jun 6, 2015)

A little teaser picture.


----------

