# Need clarity on this machine



## markba633csi (Jun 23, 2022)

Trying to understand this machine- what does "no rigid tap" mean?
I see the knee is not motorized so apparently only the quill is cnc controlled
What is the big box in front of the head? I see what looks like a power drawbar up top
Not planning to buy this but would like to understand what I'm looking at
-Mark








						3 axis CNC Milling Machine - tools - by owner - sale
					

This is a Anilam Crusader full 3 axis (no rigid tap) knee milling machine, it comes with on board shop floor programming and is very easy to program. It comes with a bunch of tooling, and would be a...



					modesto.craigslist.org


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## mmcmdl (Jun 23, 2022)

No rigid tap means you must use a floating tap holder to take up errors in the quill feed . Not a big issue .


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## Eddyde (Jun 23, 2022)

"No rigid tap" means it can't tap with CNC, probably because the spindle isn't a servo axis.


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## JimDawson (Jun 23, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> Trying to understand this machine- what does "no rigid tap" mean?


There is no encoder on the spindle.  There is no way to electronically gear the spindle rotation to the Z axis


markba633csi said:


> I see the knee is not motorized so apparently only the quill is cnc controlled


That is correct.  That is the most common configuration.


markba633csi said:


> What is the big box in front of the head? I see what looks like a power drawbar up top


The box on the front houses the works for the Z (quill) feed.

Overall a nice machine, manual and CNC capability.  The antique control should be upgraded.  The price is not horrible if the machine is in good mechanical condition.  Per the seller, it sounds like a spindle is due for a rebuild.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 23, 2022)

Looks like it does have a servo motor , maybe just not accurate enough for tapping . We had the identicle machine at AAI and power tapped on it everyday . Floating holders are great even on the more modern cnc's . You can't have ANY error in pitch with a rigid holder . You'll get alot of un-wanted snapping noises which is bad .


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## mmcmdl (Jun 23, 2022)

I definately agree with Jim on the control . This was probably an early 90s machine . It did some nice work back in the days but an upgrade would be essential at some point . I still have parts down the basement that were machined on this type of mill . Windscreen reamers for 30mm penetrators . To me , this would be one step up from a Proto Trac which is would I would be going after if I could find one .


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## markba633csi (Jun 23, 2022)

OK, tapping question:- doesn't cnc tapping require a spindle that can instantly reverse?
Otherwise I would expect you would need to use something like a Tapmatic attachment for a drill press?
Does cnc tapping use conventional taps or can it mean single point tool also? Seems to be a broad topic
-M


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## mmcmdl (Jun 23, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> OK, tapping question:- doesn't cnc tapping require a spindle that can instantly reverse?


Yes , instant reversing at a programmed Z depth .


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## mmcmdl (Jun 23, 2022)

I have floating holders down the basement . I'll post pics of what they look like later on tonight . Right now I have to get out in the rain and do what I need to do for this evening .


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## JimDawson (Jun 23, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> OK, tapping question:- doesn't cnc tapping require a spindle that can instantly reverse?


No, not instantly.  The spindle needs to decelerate to a smooth stop and then accelerate to speed in the reverse direction.  The Z axis only needs to accurately follow the motion of the spindle.  But visually, the cycle can look almost instantaneous, but instant like flipping a switch, would not work well.



markba633csi said:


> Otherwise I would expect you would need to use something like a Tapmatic attachment for a drill press?


Yes, that would work.


markba633csi said:


> Does cnc tapping use conventional taps or can it mean single point tool also? Seems to be a broad topic


Standard taps, single point, and milling taps can all be used.  I use both standard taps and single point thread mills.

You do not need rigid tapping capability to do thread milling.




I have never used a milling tap.


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## markba633csi (Jun 23, 2022)

Ah, much learned- thanks!
-M
Someday I'll be buying one


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## mmcmdl (Jun 23, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> No, not instantly. The spindle needs to decelerate to a smooth stop and then accelerate to speed in the reverse direction. The Z axis only needs to accurately follow the motion of the spindle. But visually, the cycle can look almost instantaneous, but instant like flipping a switch, would not work well.


Jim , every cnc I've ever run had instant reversing both on the mills and lathes . Are you talking about smaller machines here ?


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## mmcmdl (Jun 23, 2022)

I'm done outside . Here is a pic of a few floating heads I use , these are both Royal heads . They can draw forward as well as backwards . The one has a 6-32 tap still in it from a job ( of course a Guhring )  . I sold my Handinges 5/8ths TT heads and collets awhile back . Nice heads and expensive as well .


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## JimDawson (Jun 23, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Jim , every cnc I've ever run had instant reversing both on the mills and lathes . Are you talking about smaller machines here ?



It just appears to be instant, believe me it's not.  My lathe, with a servo spindle for instance takes almost 250 ms to decel, stop, and accel in reverse when rigid tapping.  It's fast enough that it looks instant.  Before I put the servo spindle in it, the decel/accel time was about 3 seconds.

On my Eagle mill, the spindle decel/accel is set to 3 seconds.  The Haas is a bit faster, but it has a servo spindle.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 23, 2022)

I can buy that !  You know the saying . " The older I get , the faster I was ! "


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## markba633csi (Jun 23, 2022)

CNC looks like fun- trying to dilute my massive igorance somewhat before I even think about shopping for one.
I think I would get something like the machine above,  older, but running and upgradable, rather than trying to do a full conversion
from scratch
Time matters when you get to be my age (67)


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## JimDawson (Jun 24, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> CNC looks like fun- trying to dilute my massive igorance somewhat before I even think about shopping for one.
> I think I would get something like the machine above,  older, but running and upgradable, rather than trying to do a full conversion
> from scratch
> Time matters when you get to be my age (67)



Actually that machine is a good starter CNC machine.  It is both manual and CNC, the hand wheels are just not on it.  I have it's slightly larger cousin, 4VK frame vs. 3VK frame for that one.   The only real drawback on that machine is no manual quill without a bit of modification.  Mine started life as a 2 axis CNC so had a manual quill to start with, I added the quill (Z) axis later with a quick changeover manual/CNC.


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## markba633csi (Jun 24, 2022)

I was wondering when you said manual cause I didn't see handwheels on it- got it.  So this unit has servo motors not steppers- easier to crank manually with power off?  Or are there couplings that disengage the motors?
For the quill I'm guessing you need to install some type of quick disengagement device? Is that difficult?
-M


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## JimDawson (Jun 24, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> I was wondering when you said manual cause I didn't see handwheels on it- got it.





markba633csi said:


> So this unit has servo motors not steppers- easier to crank manually with power off?  Or are there couplings that disengage the motors?


Yes, it has brushed DC servos, you don't even know they are there when hand cranking.


markba633csi said:


> For the quill I'm guessing you need to install some type of quick disengagement device? Is that difficult?
> -M



On that machine, I think the ball nut is secured to the quill with 2 screws.  If you removed those screws it should release the quill and allow manual operation.  The question is:  Is the pinion gear and shaft in there for manual feed? Or did the upfitter remove that hardware?  Those machines were imported to the US and Canada from Taiwan, and the CNC install was done here.  Not sure if they were imported as ''CNC install'' ready or if they were just a stock machine.

EDIT:  After looking at the pictures again, that machine has the quill handle on it, so it should be semi-quick change over to manual quill.  

It also looks like it has square knee ways, so it may actually be a 5VK frame, never seen one before with a 9x49 table, normally I would expect a 10x54 table on that machine.  The 5VK frame is the next step up from mine, and the largest frame.   Supermax mills were very high quality, made by Topwell in Taiwan.  As good if not better than Bridgeport.


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## markba633csi (Jun 24, 2022)

Good info, thanks.  I was wondering if Supermax were good- I've heard of that name Topwell

Oh by the way, how's your Haas running?


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## JimDawson (Jun 24, 2022)

I noticed it has a head on it that I have never seen before, but I found one just like it, looks like it is not made by Topwell, but rather Yeong Chin Ltd.   https://machinestation.us/product/supermax-ycm-12-9x50-cnc-vertical-mill/  It does have square knee ways and square Y axis ways.  A very substantial machine.  In any case, I trust Supermax.

The Haas is running fine, runs just about every day. We pretty much keep it lubed and feed it parts, and it just runs.


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