# 123 Blocks - I'm underwhelmed, or ignorant



## dbb-the-bruce (Aug 7, 2019)

I purchased a "starter" kit with my mill that included the usual step wedges with clamp arms bolts, tee nuts etc. 
It also included a set of 123 blocks.

The blocks look like they could be incredibly useful, it also seems that they are considered part of a basic kit. However, every time I've thought "hey I can use the 123 blocks" I've end up giving up. My set has 5 tapped holes laid out like the 5 on a pair of dice, and only on the flat sides. The cap screws / bolts don't clear the untapped holes, so you need smaller bolts, nuts etc to bolt the blocks together.

I did a little google-ing and found people use them like big fat parallels or squares.

How do you use them? what am I missing?
Any pointers / links to good examples? or just more info on creative work holding in general?

-Dave B


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## benmychree (Aug 7, 2019)

I personally only use them for parallels and measuring; I have a pair that I made in my apprenticeship without tapped holes (only drilled for lightness) and another set that adopted me, with tapped holes, but have never used them that way.  To use them for measuring, I use them in conjunction with a pair of step gages that I made that imitate a set that was made at Mare Island Navy Yard by a toolmaker apprentice, they have steps from 1/8" to 1" by 1/16ths.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 7, 2019)

dbb-the-bruce said:


> I did a little google-ing and found people use them like big fat parallels or squares.



This.  You can use them for all sorts of layouts, but at the end of the day, they are big fat parallels/riser blocks with good, square corners.  If you are building a setup for repetitive work, you can use them as locator stops on your table.  Just another arrow in your quiver.


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## JimDawson (Aug 7, 2019)

Your post got me to thinking a bit and I had to check mine.  I have 2 sets of 123 blocks, one Brown & Sharpe, the other a cheap Chinese set.  The non-tapped holes in the B&S set are 0.376, in the Chinese set are 0.357.  The threaded holes in both are 3/8-16.

Obviously the Chinese set is not made correctly, and the B&S set will bolt together as they should.  Another example of cheap import tooling following the form but not the function.


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## benmychree (Aug 7, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> Your post got me to thinking a bit and I had to check mine.  I have 2 sets of 123 blocks, one Brown & Sharpe, the other a cheap Chinese set.  The non-tapped holes in the B&S set are 0.376, in the Chinese set are 0.357.  The threaded holes in both are 3/8-16.
> 
> Obviously the Chinese set is not made correctly, and the B&S set will bolt together as they should.  Another example of cheap import tooling following the form but not the function.


Perhaps why they are giving them away?


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## WesPete66 (Aug 7, 2019)

I don't own any myself as l have no mill, but it seems to me this is a recurring question.  It sounds like they, as are many of the imported tools/goods, are "some assembly required".


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## T Bredehoft (Aug 7, 2019)

I made a set of 1-2-3 blocks from 1 x 2 A1 tool steel back in the early 1970s.  Holes are for weight reduction, hardened and ground all three to the same dimensions, not even inches. I've used them ever since, never needed to screw them together, never wished they were.


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## KMoffett (Aug 7, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> Your post got me to thinking a bit and I had to check mine.  I have 2 sets of 123 blocks, one Brown & Sharpe, the other a cheap Chinese set.  The non-tapped holes in the B&S set are 0.376, in the Chinese set are 0.357.  The threaded holes in both are 3/8-16.
> 
> Obviously the Chinese set is not made correctly, and the B&S set will bolt together as they should.  Another example of cheap import tooling following the form but not the function.


0.357" =9.0678mm  Probably trying to force us to switch to metric.


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## darkzero (Aug 7, 2019)

A common complaint with the China ones. Search online & you will see many discussions about this. Whoever copied them first made them wrong and they all followed. Pretty much all the ones from China (that I have seen) are made "wrong". Need to get some USA made ones if you want to bolt them together as intended or make your own.


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## Tinkertoy1941 (Aug 7, 2019)

As a kid I played with Erector Sets, Building Blocks what ever we could find. Today I am doing the same thing with the vertical mills, horizontal mill, surface grinders, drill press, arbor press and all the FURNITURE that I use. 
123 Blocks, parallels, round precision pins, angle blocks, planer gauges, jack screws and the list goes on.
123 blocks can be bolted together to make small angle plate, clamped in a vise for locators, clamped to an angle plate for repetitive angle set setups.
The use of my FURNITURE is only limited by my imagination and being able to just make it work for me and to produce QUALITY work.!


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## darkzero (Aug 7, 2019)

Oh BTW, if you are going to make some, here's an excellent design to make.


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## gjmontll (Aug 8, 2019)

My first lathe was an Atlas 618. The perfect gauge for setting tool height was a 123 block on the ways.


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## RJSakowski (Aug 8, 2019)

darkzero said:


> A common complaint with the China ones. Search online & you will see many discussions about this. Whoever copied them first made them wrong and they all followed. Pretty much all the ones from China (that I have seen) are made "wrong". Need to get some USA made ones if you want to bolt them together as intended or make your own.


That is a problem with reverse engineering a part.  Even well made parts have a tolerance associated with them.  Unless you know the original design intent, you can end up in a bind.  We see that problem creep up with R8 tooling.  With the original design held private, all subsequent aftermarket tooling was either directly reverse engineered or copied from previously reverse engineered tooling.  Add to that the mating sockets were also everse engineered or copied from previously reverse engineered sockets and you see the common problem of keyway interference.

FWIW, my blocks have untapped hole diameters ranging from .346" to .356".  9mm seem like the specified size.  One way that the blocks can be connected together is to use a stud with a short 3/8-16 thread on one end and a 5/16"-18 thread on the other. Two or three each of 2", 3", and 4" lengths and a handful of nuts and you're in business.


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## Janderso (Aug 8, 2019)

I saw a Suburban Tool video on this subject.
Don Bailey said the same thing, the import 123 blocks don't work as designed, you can't bolt them together as blocks.
He showed the difference between the cheap imports and his products.
Night and day.
Yeah, I use them as parallels or spacers so far, but I'm hoping someday.....


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## dbb-the-bruce (Aug 8, 2019)

Janderso said:


> I saw a Suburban Tool video on this subject.
> Don Bailey said the same thing, the import 123 blocks don't work as designed, you can't bolt them together as blocks.
> He showed the difference between the cheap imports and his products.
> Night and day.
> Yeah, I use them as parallels or spacers so far, but I'm hoping someday.....



I think this basically sums it up. As built, they can't be bolted together as intended, you have to use smaller bolts and will have protruding heads etc.
It also sucks that because they are hardened, enlarging the non-threaded holes would be a *****.

I already saw the Renzetti video / concept - this looks like a great way to make them.

The bolts from my clamp/step block kit do have reduced shafts, so once you thread them through they spin freely. However, it doesn't really help much as they are threaded on both ends and you still have to add nuts and can only use the 5 threaded holes in the blocks. Better off just buying smaller dia bolts and ignoring the pre-threaded holes.

I'll try to check out the Suburban Tool video.

Thanks for all the input everyone!

-Dave B


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## WDG (Aug 8, 2019)

For those who made their blocks, how did you Harden them?  Did you use a surface grinder to polish them first?  If your going to thread the holes, would you thread all the holes?


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## stioc (Aug 9, 2019)

I use mine all the time to clock the lathe's tool-post perfectly parallel to the face of the chuck.


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## stioc (Aug 10, 2019)

Oh and I've used them for work stops too by clamping them down on the mill table then butting up stock metal against them before clamping it down. Especially handy for CNC where you run the op, then remove the part and load stock without having to find the x0,y0 again and again.


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## epanzella (Aug 12, 2019)

I use them as big parrallels. I use them against my chuck to set a parting tool, I use them on my flat ways to check level on lathe. I use them under V blocks to check runout on things with diameter too big for v blocks alone.


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## T Bredehoft (Aug 12, 2019)

WDG said:


> For those who made their blocks, how did you Harden them



I did not thread them, I machine them to rough shape, heated them with an acetylene/oxygen torch, dropped them into a bucket of oil. subsequent to this I soaked them overnight in a Seal-Peal pot to anneal them. Then I ground them all three at once on a 1 1/2 Abrasive surface grinder. Hand cranked.

Hardening, I made a little oven out of firebricks.


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## pstemari (Aug 12, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> ... The non-tapped holes in the B&S set are 0.376, in the Chinese set are 0.357. The threaded holes in both are 3/8-16.
> 
> Obviously the Chinese set is not made correctly, and the B&S set will bolt together as they should. Another example of cheap import tooling following the form but not the function.



Alas, B&S's current offerings have the same problem that the Chinese ones do. I have a pair of US-made Suburban blocks that do have the correct hole sizes. If you check around on eBay you can also find a lot of machinist-made 123 blocks that are quite good, and have various hole configurations. TNGtool and MachinistBox are two sellers in particular that have some excellent stuff.

Note also that there's nothing magic about the 1-2-3 size. I have four very nice blocks with one hole each that are .5x1x1.5, and those are a great size for my Taig mill.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## srfallsallot (Jun 17, 2020)

dbb-the-bruce said:


> I think this basically sums it up. As built, they can't be bolted together as intended, you have to use smaller bolts and will have protruding heads etc.
> It also sucks that because they are hardened, enlarging the non-threaded holes would be a *****.
> 
> I already saw the Renzetti video / concept - this looks like a great way to make them.
> ...


Is there a tool that will cut/enlarge the undersized holes?


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## Janderso (Jun 17, 2020)

This is Don Bailey's opinion on the import blocks. 
Worth a watch it's only a few minutes long.


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## Toolmaker51 (Jun 17, 2020)

There is a wide range of posts; all target same issues, with different perspectives, as it should be. But the best appraisal might be this.



Tinkertoy1941 said:


> As a kid I played with Erector Sets, Building Blocks what ever we could find. Today I am doing the same thing with the vertical mills, horizontal mill, surface grinders, drill press, arbor press and all the FURNITURE that I use.
> 123 Blocks, parallels, round precision pins, angle blocks, planer gauges, jack screws and the list goes on.
> 123 blocks can be bolted together to make small angle plate, clamped in a vise for locators, clamped to an angle plate for repetitive angle set setups.
> The use of my FURNITURE is only limited by my imagination and being able to just make it work for me and to produce QUALITY work.!



1-2-3's and bigger brother 2-4-6's [ and equivalent metric's] can't really do much on their own, compared to 'specialized' tools, but they combine qualities our other tooling does not. 
Being able to assemble them can be solved in a variety of ways, fun bit of work, questionable utility depending on your resources. 
As we say,YMMV, IYKWIM.


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## Janderso (Jun 18, 2020)

srfallsallot said:


> Is there a tool that will cut/enlarge the undersized holes?


I bet you could cut them with a carbide end mill.
Unless they are Suburban/Schmidt or Moore.
They should be hardened but I bet they aren't too bad.
Just an opinion.


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## ErichKeane (Jun 18, 2020)

I actually tried to use my HFS set to tram in my mill-head the other day, and discovered there is about 5-6 tenths of variation on them!  The area around the holes is higher, the rest is a little lower.  I'm not sure how they managed that.  I was having an incredibly frustrating time trying to tram in the head as a result!

Between that and the holes, I don't actually use mine at all except as junky parallels.  If I had a good hardening setup, I'd pick up some nice steel and just make my own.


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