# What kind of alcohol is this



## Aukai (Mar 14, 2020)

I have a gallon of Klean strip denatured alcohol. Since there is a run on hand sanitizer now,and this can be mixed with alovera gel. What would the alcohol percentage be for this type of mixture in the gallon? 60-70% is needed for the hand sanitizer. I'm having difficulty figuring out, here is the MSDS.



			https://korellis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Alcohol-Denatured.pdf


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## Reddinr (Mar 14, 2020)

Based on the MSDS< it appears to be a mixture of methanol (wood alcohol) and ethenol.  The concentration does not appear to be enough to use as a sanitizer.   Also, don't drink it.  Can cause blindness or death, blindness then death, just death.  Death will ruin your whole day.

"64-17-5 Ethyl alcohol {Ethanol} 30.0 -50.0 % 
 67-56-1 Methanol {Methyl alcohol; Carbinol; Wood alcohol} 40.0 -60.0 %"


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## Aukai (Mar 14, 2020)

Def not for drinking, just wondering if the percentages add up, or not. Not a chemist that's for sure. Thank for looking


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## Reddinr (Mar 14, 2020)

The percentages do not add up.  The concentration would be below 60% for sure.  If you add aloe vera or glycerin like in the hand sanitizers, the concentration goes down further.  If you are looking for a reliable recipe, with some gravitas, you can look here:


			https://www.who.int/gpsc/5may/Guide_to_Local_Production.pdf
		


First, find the alcohol...not easy these days.  Most store-bought stuff is 70% or 93% as marked on the bottle.  The lower concentration would need to be taken into account to use the WHO guide.


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## aliva (Mar 14, 2020)

I've heard of some using vodka, again the alcohol content is not enough. Contact some moonshines in Carolina and ask them to brew up strong batch


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## RJSakowski (Mar 14, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I have a gallon of Klean strip denatured alcohol. Since there is a run on hand sanitizer now,and this can be mixed with alovera gel. What would the alcohol percentage be for this type of mixture in the gallon? 60-70% is needed for the hand sanitizer. I'm having difficulty figuring out, here is the MSDS.
> 
> 
> 
> https://korellis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Alcohol-Denatured.pdf


Funny you should mention this.  I just picked up a gallon of denatured alcohol for this purpose.  Denatured alcohol is mostly ethyl  alcohol, aka grain alcohol with methanol, aka wood alcohol, added as a denaturant to keep us from drinking the stuff.  Here is what I sent out to our neighbors.

As some of you may have noticed, not only Purell is unavailable but so is isopropyl alcohol for DIY hand sanitizer.  I contacted  one of my former colleagues who is a PhD biochemist and he told me that denatured alcohol is as effective.  It is available by the gallon at Menards in the paint section.  He also told me that it is more effective diluted to 70% than full strength so 7 parts of alcohol to 3 parts of water. After sanitizing, hands should be      washed with soap and water to remove any residual alcohol.  Denatured alcohol has methanol, aka wood alcohol, added and is toxic if swallowed.


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## Reddinr (Mar 14, 2020)

RJ - The menards product would need to be 100% (or 99.X%) concentrated for that to work out to ~70% dilution, wouldn't it?  Do you know the concentration of that product?  The recommendations by the known good sources is >60% is needed in the final mix.  Good point about hand washing.  I wonder how much dermatitis will have to be treated with over use of harsh alcohol on the hands?

_EDIT:  Just to be clear, what I meant here is that if you take a product that is already diluted to 70% and dilute it again 7 parts to 3 parts water, the concentration would be too low.  You have to know the starting concentration.  _

Regarding Vodka use as hand cleaner.  I can think of better uses.


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## RJSakowski (Mar 14, 2020)

__





						Isopropyl & Denatured Ethanol Disinfectant Selection
					





					cleanroomsuppliesltd.com


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## RJSakowski (Mar 14, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> RJ - The menards product would need to be 100% (or 99.X%) concentrated for that to work out to ~70% dilution, wouldn't it?  Do you know the concentration of that product?  The recommendations by the known good sources is >60% is needed in the final mix.  Good point about hand washing.  I wonder how much dermatitis will have to be treated with over use of harsh alcohol on the hands?
> 
> Regarding Vodka use as hand cleaner.  I can think of better uses.


Denatured ethanol has a number of formulations.  The Menard product is a ethanol/methanol mix.  Ethanol at its highest normal strength is 95% . It is the highest strength that can be made by conventional distillation.   There is 100% ethanol, known as absolute ethanol which is made by some rather exotic means.  Except for the possibility of the 5% water component in the ethanol, denatured alcohol is a 100% mixture of the two alcohols.

I would use it diluted to 70 -80%  as a wash.  Saturate a paper towel and wipe thoroughly.  Follow by washing with soap and water.  The idea of effectiveness improving effectiveness with addition of water was contrary to my previous belief but I trust the advice that I got from my colleague. 

If I could buy the isopropyl alcohol, it would be my first choice but it is a scarce as hen's teeth right now with little possibility of improvement in the near future.


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## Reddinr (Mar 14, 2020)

Now "everyone" knows!  Looks like I need to make a quick trip to my local hardware store before it is too late!  
RJ - Does your container show what the initial dilution is?  I looked on a couple of HW store websites and the concentration is of "Kleen strip" and similar is not listed.

EDIT:  OK.  Now I feel foolish.    The MSDS from the original post shows Kleen strip at <60%.    I'm going back to working on my taxes now...


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## darkzero (Mar 14, 2020)

Good thing I stocked up but it wasn't for the purpose of making hand sanitizer. They banned the sale of denatured alcohol here in CA last year. Somehow I ended up with 25 gals.


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## projectnut (Mar 14, 2020)

RJSakowski said:


> Funny you should mention this.  I just picked up a gallon of denatured alcohol for this purpose.  Denatured alcohol is mostly ethyl  alcohol, aka grain alcohol with methanol, aka wood alcohol, added as a denaturant to keep us from drinking the stuff.  Here is what I sent out to our neighbors.
> 
> As some of you may have noticed, not only Purell is unavailable but so is isopropyl alcohol for DIY hand sanitizer.  I contacted  one of my former colleagues who is a PhD biochemist and he told me that denatured alcohol is as effective.  It is available by the gallon at Menards in the paint section.  He also told me that it is more effective diluted to 70% than full strength so 7 parts of alcohol to 3 parts of water. After sanitizing, hands should be      washed with soap and water to remove any residual alcohol.  Denatured alcohol has methanol, aka wood alcohol, added and is toxic if swallowed.



Unfortunately there have been some in the past that actually have tried to drink it.  In 1980 after the Mariel boatlift from Cuba a large number of refugees were housed at Camp McCoy in central Wisconsin.  One morning the authorities found several men in various stages of trauma.  A couple were dead, and others were near death.  It seems they had broken to a warehouse and found what they thought was alcohol. They opened bottles and drank their fill.  In reality what they thought was grain alcohol was actually antifreeze.


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## Titanium Knurler (Mar 14, 2020)

projectnut said:


> Unfortunately there have been some in the past that actually have tried to drink it.  In 1980 after the Mariel boatlift from Cuba a large number of refugees were housed at Camp McCoy in central Wisconsin.  One morning the authorities found several men in various stages of trauma.  A couple were dead, and others were near death.  It seems they had broken to a warehouse and found what they thought was alcohol. They opened bottles and drank their fill.  In reality what they thought was grain alcohol was actually antifreeze.



Yes, unfortunately antifreeze(usually ethylene glycol) and wood alcohol(methanol) are metabolized by our bodies to aldehydes such as formaldehyde which works well as an embalming fluid but not so well otherwise.  The treatment is IV ethanol-seriously.


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## Martin W (Mar 14, 2020)

Will, looks like you are sitting on 4 pails of good grain alcohol . The other two pails have been denatured which makes it poisonous. 
Man I only Get just 3/4 of a gallon of 190 proof when I run 5 gallons of corn  mash.Lol. You must be running a column still
Cheers
Martin


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## darkzero (Mar 14, 2020)

As RJ mentioned, denatured alcohol is denatured by adding methanol to ethyl alcohol so it can't be consumed & sold without alcohol tax. Methanol is poisonous & should only be consumed by internal combustion engines.  

Well mainly I just wanted to say, now a days, kids vape glycol instead of consuming it.


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## darkzero (Mar 14, 2020)

Martin W said:


> Will, looks like you are sitting on 4 pails of good grain alcohol . The other two pails have been denatured which makes it poisonous.
> Man I only Get just 3/4 of a gallon of 190 proof when I run 5 gallons of corn  mash.Lol. You must be running a column still
> Cheers
> Martin



Haha I wish. Nah, it is denatured alcohol 190 proof. Vanzol is just a trade name for denatured alcohol for Univar.

That sealed 5 gallon pail I have is 200 proof denatured alcohol but not that it matters to me.


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## mmcmdl (Mar 14, 2020)

I got some some alcohol when I woke up today ! My son's girlfriend is down from Canada and she brought me 3 16 oz Guinness HopHouse Ales !  She must've heard I enjoyed quite a few of these while in Ireland . 

God bless her though , she's a thoughtful girl .


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## Titanium Knurler (Mar 14, 2020)

Will, between the “Zombie daggers” , titanium “stash containers” and the contraband alcohol I think I have figured out the “dark” part of your moniker.  Now I have to figure out the “zero” part


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## darkzero (Mar 14, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> I got some some alcohol when I woke up today ! My son's girlfriend is down from Canada and she brought me 3 16 oz Guinness HopHouse Ales !  She must've heard I enjoyed quite a few of these while in Ireland .
> 
> God bless her though , she's a thoughtful girl .



Good thing what I have is denatured otherwise I may not have any left for use in the shop. I quit drinking last June so that could have been a different story!


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## darkzero (Mar 14, 2020)

Titanium Knurler said:


> Will, between the “Zombie daggers” , titanium “stash containers” and the contraband alcohol I think I have figured out the “dark” part of your moniker.  Now I have to figure out the “zero” part


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## Forty Niner (Mar 14, 2020)

Ok.  I'll chime in.
  How about "Everclear"  for sanitizing?  95% alchohal by volume (180 proof).   Available at your local liquer store. If you can not use it to sanitize your hands you can spike the punch and forget about it.


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## mmcmdl (Mar 14, 2020)

Forty Niner said:


> How about "Everclear" for sanitizing? 95% alchohal by volume (180 proof). Available at your local liquer store. If you can not use it to sanitize your hands you can spike the punch and forget about it.



Md banned it . Still available up in Pa though . We used to make lemoncello/limecello for the wife . She's not a fan of fine beers .


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## darkzero (Mar 14, 2020)

Forty Niner said:


> Ok.  I'll chime in.
> How about "Everclear"  for sanitizing?  95% alchohal by volume (180 proof).   Available at your local liquer store. If you can not use it to sanitize your hands you can spike the punch and forget about it.



One could, after all they use it in movies whenever some one gets shot & they are removing the bullet.   

Problem with alcohol for consumption is that it's expensive by volume if using it for cleaning purposes. We can't buy Everclear here in CA either.


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## mmcmdl (Mar 14, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Problem with alcohol for consumption is that it's expensive by volume if using it for cleaning purposes.



That is almost a bannable statement ! 

I will add though , I've spilled many adult beverages over all my machines , and they're still quite dirty .


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## darkzero (Mar 14, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> That is almost a bannable statement !
> 
> I will add though , I've spilled many adult beverages over all my machines , and they're still quite dirty .



Yeah but I bet your machines had fun making your parts undersize. I always blame the machines for being drunk, not me the operator. Yeah that has happened to me I'll admit, then I say to my machines "oh you think that was funny eh?". Then they get put to bed....


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## mmcmdl (Mar 14, 2020)

I only stare at the machines while enjoying a beer . I've seen too many incidents and know better to combine the two . I'm going to get into this VFD thing tomorrow if the weather permits , I need to get going on this .


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## Aukai (Mar 15, 2020)

OK, if my alcohol is not strong enough percentage wise, how do I concentrate it? What easy distilling procedures are available. I am susceptible to exposure working on the ambulance.


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## mmcmdl (Mar 15, 2020)

Are you still working as a para ? I thought you were done with it ?


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## MontanaLon (Mar 15, 2020)

Aukai said:


> OK, if my alcohol is not strong enough percentage wise, how do I concentrate it? What easy distilling procedures are available. I am susceptible to exposure working on the ambulance.


Making a still is easy. We had one in college that we heated on a hotplate. It was a glass 5 gallon water jug. Had a worm and a chiller tank and product was caught in a plastic 5 gallon bucket. The trick to it is to get up to 180* and no higher, so you really have to watch it. The water will stay in the still while the alcohol evaporates off. 

For antiseptic use collect all the runoff. If you was to drink it, dump the first quart that comes off. Pretty nasty stuff in there that are also waste products like the alcohol but with lower boiling point. It is the stuff that will make you go blind.


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## Aukai (Mar 15, 2020)

Thank you, not for consumption....


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## mmcmdl (Mar 15, 2020)

All the Purell stuff in here is 70% Mike .


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## Reddinr (Mar 15, 2020)

Have a look at this setup/still.  Plus, this youtube channel is "Tech Ingredients" generally pretty great.
Tech Ingredients-Whiskey


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## RJSakowski (Mar 15, 2020)

projectnut said:


> Unfortunately there have been some in the past that actually have tried to drink it.  In 1980 after the Mariel boatlift from Cuba a large number of refugees were housed at Camp McCoy in central Wisconsin.  One morning the authorities found several men in various stages of trauma.  A couple were dead, and others were near death.  It seems they had broken to a warehouse and found what they thought was alcohol. They opened bottles and drank their fill.  In reality what they thought was grain alcohol was actually antifreeze.


Antifreeze, the ethylene glycol type, is deadly.  I lost a good hunting beagle to it after she drank about a teaspoonful.  It attacks the liver.  OTOH, deaths from drinking methanol were fairly common during prohibition.



darkzero said:


> Good thing I stocked up but it wasn't for the purpose of making hand sanitizer. They banned the sale of denatured alcohol here in CA last year. Somehow I ended up with 25 gals.
> 
> View attachment 316672


I believe that the various recipies for denaturing ethanol are register with the federal government.  The square carboys of 190 proof have the A1 -190 formulation of: ethanol (Ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol), 85%; 2-propanol (isopropyl alcohol), 9%; methanol (methyl alcohol,  wood alcohol) 4%, and methyl isobutyl ketone, 1%.


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## Janderso (Mar 15, 2020)

I tried


darkzero said:


> Good thing I stocked up but it wasn't for the purpose of making hand sanitizer. They banned the sale of denatured alcohol here in CA last year. Somehow I ended up with 25 gals.
> 
> View attachment 316672


I went to buy some last week (denatured alcohol) I found some in rusty metal one gallon containers. No thanks.
Good old California


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## middle.road (Mar 22, 2020)

Just as the hand sanitizer hoarding hit, I went down the aisle at Kroger's and they had shelves full of ISO @70% - grabbed (4) bottles.
-=-
Has anyone else caught the news clips of the small distilleries that are making hand sanitizer and giving it away?
One distiller back east here started doing that and ran out of bottles, and some lady who had closed up her business a couple of years ago had multiple cases of bottles left over in storage and donated them to the effort.
+1 to them!


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## Forty Niner (Mar 22, 2020)

Yep, Several distilleries in central Texas are now making hand sanitizer and have the governments' blessing and approval to do so.   They have started off with 500 gallon batches and are gearing up for more.  They plan to furnish EMS and law enforcement to start with.


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 22, 2020)

darkzero said:


> I always blame the machines for being drunk, not me the operator.



You're not the first to blame his "tools"


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## GunsOfNavarone (Mar 22, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> Based on the MSDS< it appears to be a mixture of methanol (wood alcohol) and ethenol.  The concentration does not appear to be enough to use as a sanitizer.   Also, don't drink it.  Can cause blindness or death, blindness then death, just death.  Death will ruin your whole day.
> 
> "64-17-5 Ethyl alcohol {Ethanol} 30.0 -50.0 %
> 67-56-1 Methanol {Methyl alcohol; Carbinol; Wood alcohol} 40.0 -60.0 %"


But you MAY want to use it if you contract the virus....J/k...don't use it. I was reading a virus thread, it was interesting seeing people laughing it off/joking, but the more you read that slowly changed. I got through 2/3rds of it, came back and the thread was gone...what happened to it?


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## darkzero (Mar 22, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> I got through 2/3rds of it, came back and the thread was gone...what happened to it?



It went poof because of a number of inappropriate posts.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Mar 22, 2020)

darkzero said:


> It went poof because of a number of inappropriate posts.


Bummer...it was an interesting development of the timeline. I must have thick skin, I didn't notice any...but I didn't get to last page or 2. Thanks Dark.


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## north1 (Mar 22, 2020)

Just a shot in the dark, but what about Bacardi 151 rum?


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## GunsOfNavarone (Mar 22, 2020)

Seems like if it burns (ignites) that would work. (I'm not a Dr or scientist)


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## rwm (Mar 23, 2020)

Bacardi 151 should be 75% EtOH so it would work appropriately. As far as the "denatured" products go, technically they should only be used on surfaces since the methanol is toxic and not FDA approved. I personally would not be concerned about limited use of a small amount of methanol on my skin. 
RWM


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 23, 2020)

Here in Downunder we have different laws than in USA. I can buy In the supermarket, hardware shop and paint shop. 1L bottles of Methylated spirits, we call it Metho, and it says on the label "Not less than 95% Ethanol" so I guess the rest must be Methanol. I have used some to make sanitizer by using 70% mixed with 30% Aloe Vera Gel, seams to work OK, doesn't leave the skin dry, like straight metho does. The mix should be about 66% ethanol. Many of the commercial sanitisers claim to be 65%, some 70%, but they are all out of stock now.


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## Eddyde (Mar 23, 2020)

I made a batch using 75% Denatured Alcohol and 25% Glycerin. Leave the hands a little greasy but otherwise is fine.


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## graham-xrf (Mar 23, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I have a gallon of Klean strip denatured alcohol. Since there is a run on hand sanitizer now,and this can be mixed with alovera gel. What would the alcohol percentage be for this type of mixture in the gallon? 60-70% is needed for the hand sanitizer. I'm having difficulty figuring out, here is the MSDS.
> 
> 
> 
> https://korellis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Alcohol-Denatured.pdf


The name "Denatured Alcohol" means ethanol adulterated with methanol (aka wood alcohol), to make it not fit to drink, the intention originally being that ethanol as an industrial solvent that evaporated completely was just so useful, and cheap from industrial sources other than brewing, and associated tax arrangements. Perhaps the authorities expected the troops would take a tipple.

*You can't distill it back to booze*
Methanol CH3-OH, one carbon is very similar to ethanol C2H5-OH, the two-carbon booze alcohol. Together, they form a "_constant boiling point mixture_". All you get is distilled pure mixture, perhaps with the color left behind. It won't separate.

*Mostly purple - but can be clear.*
Colored violet or purple except special sorts used in critical cleaning and some cosmetics. To let you know it is poison! Some will drink it anyway.

*In bad taste!*
The most bitter foulest tasting stuff that could be found is added. 10ppm is unbearably bitter to nearly all.
_N_-Benzyl-2-(2,6-dimethylanilino)-_N_,_N_-diethyl-2-oxoethan-1-aminium benzoate.
They call it "denatonium benzoate", a faked up name as if it was an element.
Used to deter nail-biting.

The actual stuff in it varies widely. Other solvents may be in the mix, like IPA, and methyl ethyl keytone. In USA, maybe up to 50% may be various stuff other than ethanol.

*As a hand sanitizer.*
Unlike proper hand sanitizer, the stuff does not have the added oils and moisturizers. IPA beyond about 70% will work as a hand sanitizer - but so will plain old soap. COVID-19 outer wall layer is like a grease that dissolves away in alkali, soaps, etc. and the virus collapses. There are some distillates from the Deep South, and no doubt other concoctions that are flammable, and will work.

About 2/3 down the page of a UK regulatory document gives the denatured alcohol recipe --> HERE LINK

I can attest that drinking the mixture of ethanol, IPA, methanol and about 10% water was a bad experience!
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/food-and-drink-in-the-work-area-ipa-ethanol-methanol.82740/


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 24, 2020)

Back in my wasted youth I worked in biological research. We had 2 grades of denatured alcohol, 3A had methanol, 2B had benzene (probably no longer used). Both were carefully controlled, you had to sign a log book and account for what you used. By contrast, we had analytical grade ethanol (99.99?%), called Gold Shield. It came in a pint bottle with the federal tax stamp over the cap. It was freely available from chemical stores with no accounting. The tax had been paid so the feds didn't care what you did with it. Made some killer screwdrivers.


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## Titanium Knurler (Mar 24, 2020)

MrWhoopee said:


> Back in my wasted youth I worked in biological research. We had 2 grades of denatured alcohol, 3A had methanol, 2B had benzene (probably no longer used). Both were carefully controlled, you had to sign a log book and account for what you used. By contrast, we had analytical grade ethanol (99.99?%), called Gold Shield. It came in a pint bottle with the federal tax stamp over the cap. It was freely available from chemical stores with no accounting. The tax had been paid so the feds didn't care what you did with it. Made some killer screwdrivers.




MrWhoopee, did a little kidney research myself, back in the day.  We had a holiday party one year where we poured orange juice, champagne, vodka, dry ice and laboratory grade alcohol into a large crock. We called it kidney punch. We served it with urinals into specimen cups.  People enjoyed it quite a bit.  The Chairman, who was pretty well respected scientist, got smashed and for some unknown reason walked over to me while I was talking to several nice young ladies and unzipped my fly.  I dated one for a while.  We only had one party like that.


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## matthewsx (Mar 27, 2020)

You all probably know this but as long as you have access to soap and water there's no need for hand sanitizer. I've often wondered why the stuff was so popular, even before this outbreak. Almost any place where I need clean hands there's a sink available with hand soap, I got serious about making sure my hands were clean when I started cooking for our family ~20 years ago. Never made anybody sick AFAIK.

Cheers,

John


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## Aukai (Mar 27, 2020)

Working on the ambulance, and getting back in the rig after de gloving I like to "make sure". I came out of retirement, and I'm temp screening flight crews now for the bug. We're using mostly paper hand wipe style now. Flights from the mainland to here today were 7 total. 3 empty, 1 diverted, and 4 others with a total of 10 pax. The private jet that landed from Idaho had 11 souls on board, and 2 crew.


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 27, 2020)

You know its strange All my life I've never been too fussed about washing my hands, sure if they're covered in gunk give 'em a wash. while working mostly ate lunch without more than just a wipe with a rag.

Then as a married man with two kids I did most of the cooking, rarely with anything more than a casual wash. Then through life after a divorce had other partners with kids, now my current partner of 22 years I still do most of the cooking. 

Also hosted many parties where I prepared most if not all the food. As far as I know no one has ever got sick from my cooking.

Sometimes I think we take this cleanliness a little too far. I think our immune system works a lot better if gets challenged, but you have to start when quite young.


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## Aukai (Mar 27, 2020)

I absolutely(to a point) agree, the kids were getting sicker because we made them wash their hands, don't eat that, don't put that in your mouth. Women went through a stage of not really getting into breast feeding, and the kids were more sickly. With viruses it is a bit different, like pandemic different.


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## rwm (Mar 27, 2020)

You guys will be happy to know that heavy sulfurated way oil kills the virus...
R


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 27, 2020)

rwm said:


> You guys will be happy to know that heavy sulfurated way oil kills the virus...
> R



How do we know this, and why isn't it public knowledge?


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## matthewsx (Mar 27, 2020)

Downunder Bob said:


> You know its strange All my life I've never been too fussed about washing my hands, sure if they're covered in gunk give 'em a wash. while working mostly ate lunch without more than just a wipe with a rag.
> 
> Then as a married man with two kids I did most of the cooking, rarely with anything more than a casual wash. Then through life after a divorce had other partners with kids, now my current partner of 22 years I still do most of the cooking.
> 
> ...



Yes, we all need a strong immune system and the way for that to happen is through breast feeding children and not being too fussy about keeping them clean.

However, I still remember what it was like when I got chicken pox and measles. As a parent I'm really, really happy there are effective vaccines for them now. When my wife and I got married in Hawaii about a week before we left, our daughter (5 at the time) came down with what we both knew was measles. We took her to the hospital where we were immediately put into isolation and they confirmed it. She had been immunized but we know it's not perfect. Anyway, her case was so mild we were able to fly to Hawaii a week later. I know from my experience that wouldn't have happened for me with the chills and fever/vomiting/etc. that I went through.

Today she's about to graduate university with a bio-medical engineering degree. High fevers can permanently damage your brain so who knows if she would be where she is today without that immunization....

So, of course let your kids play in the dirt and build natural immunity. But lets all hope they come up with a vaccine for this thing soon.

John


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