# Collis Or Knock Offs, Things That Make You Go Hmmm...



## coolidge (Oct 27, 2015)

So I ordered a couple of Collis brand R8 end mill holders recently and I'm wondering if they pulled the old switch-a-roo on me here. These are not cheap, over $100 each, I got them on sale for $70 each but still I can buy an entire set of made in Asia for just what these two cost.

So here are the Collis product photos from the web site, top is a .500 inch holder and the bottom one is a .375 holder.



This is what I received. Neither matches the product photo, the black one doesn't even match the specs on Collis web site measurement wise its a lot shorter. The silver one has a shallow key slot typical of made in China/Asia .064 deep. The black one keyway slot is .084, the keyway slot is rough and jagged, there are a few dings and scratches but it was sealed in a plastic bag. The plastic bag on the silver one was cut open. Note the patch of satin chrome coating polished off the silver one. Part numbers are stamped on in the product photos, both of these below were inked on and even that is radically different from one another. The silver one was in a yellow plastic bag, the black one in a clear plastic bag.



The black one was rusted.



Even the plastic containers were radically different.


----------



## JimDawson (Oct 27, 2015)

Hmmmmm....I would be on the phone!


----------



## coolidge (Oct 27, 2015)

Replacements for both are inbound, should arrive tomorrow. I also documented in an email with photos and sent it off to Collis.


----------



## The Liberal Arts Garage (Oct 27, 2015)

Ugly!  Surely even the the  Chinese workers can understand the effect of a bad first
impression. I can remember the shining beauty  of a new tool in my hand in an earl
ier day, whoever made it. Pride,please !..........BLJHB.


----------



## Holescreek (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm curious.  What do you think you'll gain from high dollar end mill holders?


----------



## coolidge (Oct 27, 2015)

Not the poor quality, accuracy, and lack of consistency I see in made in China products. Things manufactured so poorly they wobble like a cartoon. These end mill holders are for roughing so I don't need .0002 run out but I also don't want to bugger up my spindle with crap tooling.


----------



## Holescreek (Oct 27, 2015)

Thanks for the reply,  I was curious because I've never seen an import holder with runout  problems.  I figure they are all pretty much made in the same place and re-badged these days like the first two you received.


----------



## coolidge (Oct 27, 2015)

No you can still buy quality not made in China, if you pony up the money. Hardinge collets for example or Lyndex.


----------



## Sandia (Oct 27, 2015)

I saw a video Oxtool did on R8 collets, China versus Lyndex and there was no difference in runout as I recall. I have Lyndex collets for my mill but no experience with China made. I do have mostly Chinese made 5C collets plus some Hardinge and other US made. You can definetly tell the difference with those.


----------



## mksj (Oct 28, 2015)

Totally bogus knock offs. I would be curious to know where you purchased them from, probably avoid buying from them again. Collets can vary quite a bit, but if you look at the build quality and consistency, the generic knock-offs are often poorer. That being said, I bought some Shars 5C collets to fill the gaps in my 5C sets, decent, but not as good as the Lyndex and Royal in the rest of the set. I also returned two sets of Chinese R-8 collets  because they did not fit, ended up finally springing for a Lyndex set and had no problems.


----------



## wrmiller (Oct 28, 2015)

Bought a 11-piece Vertex (Taiwan) R8 collet set for $114 from Eisen Machinery and am very happy with them. Compared runout of the 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" sizes to the Shars I bought for the PM25. Difference wasn't even worth remembering. I've had a total of four collet sets since 2000 and have not had any of the quality or fitment issues many here describe. Guess I'm just lucky. 

No way I'm going to spend $100 per collet, I don't care where they come from.


----------



## coolidge (Oct 28, 2015)

mksj said:


> Totally bogus knock offs. I would be curious to know where you purchased them from, probably avoid buying from them again. Collets can vary quite a bit, but if you look at the build quality and consistency, the generic knock-offs are often poorer. That being said, I bought some Shars 5C collets to fill the gaps in my 5C sets, decent, but not as good as the Lyndex and Royal in the rest of the set. I also returned two sets of Chinese R-8 collets  because they did not fit, ended up finally springing for a Lyndex set and had no problems.



MSC


----------



## Dan_S (Oct 28, 2015)

I'd recommend you send them all back and just buy a good set of R8 collets, or a quality ER collect chuck. Unless you are running shrink fit holders, end mill holder will always be less accurate than a collet, it's simply the nature of the beast, and the tolerances involved.


----------



## coolidge (Oct 28, 2015)

Dan I already have a 25 piece set of Lyndex collets and a ETM ER32 collet set. These two end mill holders are for roughing duty and for getting down into stuff where the mill quill is too large.

Guys also remember I bought the Maxi Torque-Rite power draw bar and I want to take advantage of the quick tool changes. The ER32 collet chuck is annoying and slow in this regard.

I'm just adding some additional tooling here not standardizing on end mill holders.


----------



## Dan_S (Oct 28, 2015)

coolidge said:


> The ER32 collet chuck is annoying and slow in this regard.



That's why you need to buy multiple chucks. Collet chucks are like clamps, you can never have enough.


----------



## Doubleeboy (Oct 28, 2015)

Myself I would spend the money on some nice semi finishing roughers and stick em in a collet and be happy.  Endmill holders, take up space, add to runout and on a Bridgeport style machine gain you next to nothing.    Nodding head, lightweight Bridgeport type machines are not designed to be hogging machines, I believe the original BP manual title was Toolmakers Turret mill.  They will do a little of everything, somethings very well, hogging is not one of them.  I sold my endmill holders, they gained me next to nothing.  I hope they work out for you, but I doubt it.

michael


----------



## coolidge (Oct 28, 2015)

I just received the replacements...they shipped me the same damn thing as before lol they are going back I'm done. I'm guessing they moved manufacturing of these to Asia but never lowered the price, shocker. I'm going to call Collis tomorrow to confirm/complain.


----------



## Bob Korves (Oct 28, 2015)

I have watched MSC for many years.  Their prices are high, their specials are not nearly as good as the competition, and their documentation is often poor.  Recently I bought two vise handles, Gibraltar, from MSC, my first purchase ever from them.  I could not find a Gibraltar catalog online to confirm the sizing listed in the MSC catalog.  When the handles came, they were not even close to the sizes quoted in the MSC catalog.  I was too ****** to even call them and send them back.  I am done with MSC after one purchase.  Why do people think they are so great?  I get much better customer service, prices, sales, and delivery from their sister company, Enco.


----------



## Doubleeboy (Oct 28, 2015)

Bob Korves said:


> I have watched MSC for many years.  Their prices are high, their specials are not nearly as good as the competition, and their documentation is often poor.  Recently I bought two vise handles, Gibraltar, from MSC, my first purchase ever from them.  I could not find a Gibraltar catalog online to confirm the sizing listed in the MSC catalog.  When the handles came, they were not even close to the sizes quoted in the MSC catalog.  I was too ****** to even call them and send them back.  I am done with MSC after one purchase.  Why do people think they are so great?  I get much better customer service, prices, sales, and delivery from their sister company, Enco.



Not to steal  Cool's thread to rag on MSC, but they have gone down hill and drug Enco with them.  They both use to be better companies, Enco actually manufactured some pretty high quality tooling in the 1970s and 80s.  Their boring heads and tool posts were finely made items.  About the time that MSC bought J&L it all went south.  Enco sale catalog got more homogeneous in its offerings,  MSC started raising prices dramatically and poor J&L disappeared all together.  You used to be able to buy Circle solid carbide boring bar kits for next to nothing in the sale flyer, likewise generic Chinese carbide inserts.  No more,and it has filtered down to Enco which still has some fair deals but nothing like a decade or 3 ago.

In my opinion MSC is riding on their rep from along time ago, its bean counters running the show near as I can tell.

michael


----------



## coolidge (Oct 29, 2015)

Michael my brother was just complaining about the price of Circle carbide boring bars a few minutes ago when we were speaking on the phone. The problem with Enco is when you try to go up in quality sometimes they don't offer that brand from Enco, only from MSC. I had to get the Guhring taps recently from MSC, Enco doesn't sell that brand.

I wonder if part of the problem is that so much manufacturing has left the country.


----------



## wrmiller (Oct 29, 2015)

This information is good to have guys, thanks. I haven't bought from MSC in almost 15 years (remember those beautiful big honkin books?) and had nothing bad to say about them back then. Apparently things have changed over the years.


----------



## Sandia (Oct 29, 2015)

Liked the big books, matter of fact I have a MSC and J&L big book. Almost too heavy to lift anymore. Ha ha.


----------



## dlane (Oct 29, 2015)

I believe MSC owns ENCO I know there related somehow, I ordered a bearing from Enco with Msc part # over the phone and the lady said they are related.


----------



## mksj (Oct 29, 2015)

coolidge said:


> I wonder if part of the problem is that so much manufacturing has left the country.



I think this is the case. Enco and MSC are part of the same company, the difference for some reason is that with MSC you pay tax in all states, and only a few with ENco. I also think it is a marketing position to have two separate storefront names. Enco sells the low end products, probably targeted at the hobbyist/weekend warrior.  Over time I (and others) have seen the quality of their products and the range of name brand products dramatically decline. I am also noticing a lot of spin off generic/poorer quality products (some with names that sound familiar but have turned to crap, like Gibraltar, SPI, etc.). Enco's prices have been slowly creeping up on brand name items, so unless you are getting a heavy discount and free shipping it is no bargain.  I was looking at the cost of a medium Flexbar lathe shield for someone else, Enco's prics is now $272, if you buy it from the manufacturer it is $175, and I purchased mine a little over a year ago from Enco for $135.  They now stock some other brand shield for $175. MSC is targeted as one shop pricing for many businesses that just don't have the time to shop around to save a few$. Price is less of an issue when you consider your operational run costs. Many of the higher end products that Enco use to carry, or now only available at MSC. MSC prices are usually over list, so probably need a business account and/or their 20-35% discount that I routinely get notices about, and spend a few hundred dollars to qualify. They usually have stoke, so I buy from them when I need a number of expensive items items and I just don't have the time to get the parts from 3 or 4 other vendors and pay the shipping.

Specific to the Collis holders, it would seem that MSC is just passing on what they inventoried, and they have not updated their pictures. It would also seem that Collis is another company that might have been bought out by a Pacific rim company/or just no longer cares about quality and is now replacing products with cheaper C...p from "offshore". This thread pretty much say it all and reflects your experience. Unfortunately the world is selling out to the cheapest bidder. End of story.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/collis-tool-holder-off-shore-foreign-origin-yes-265088/


----------



## coolidge (Oct 29, 2015)

I spoke with MSC today, at first they tried to get Collis on the phone. When they couldn't reach them they wanted me to talk to their tech engineers, they gave me the "photos are only representative" line blah blah. So I sent the person I was speaking with their web site photos vs a photo of what I received and it was so blatantly obvious not the same product they processed the return without further discussion. $90 plus each for these I don't think so I wasn't born yesterday.


----------



## coolidge (Oct 29, 2015)

You see that polished off area turns out both of these they sent me had the same polished off area, the part number is inked on the opposite side, what are the odds these are some other brand and they just polished off the one number and re-inked them as Collis? Yes things that make you go hmmm...


----------



## planeflyer21 (Oct 29, 2015)

Can't find it now but in the last year or so someone was complaining mightily (on youtube maybe?), about ordering Collis tooling and getting Chinese junk.

Once you let your name go down hill, it's very hard to get it back.


----------



## maker of things (Nov 3, 2015)

FWIW I have been using Production Tool Supply.  They are the closest I have found to what J&L used to be.  There is a branch close to where I work but I order mostly online because generally orders over $75 ups free.  YMMV   www.pts-tools.com

edit: They still have a 2" thick 8 1/2 x 11  "catalog".


----------



## 4GSR (Nov 3, 2015)

A number of tool suppliers all over the country including Enco and MSC, buy from a central wholesale supplier.  One of these central suppliers is located in Chicago.  And yeah, they have a generic catalog that they stamp their local contact information on that you get in the mail or the salesman drops off, that you order from.


----------



## maker of things (Nov 3, 2015)

That would explain why one time when I ordered from Enco I got angle plates with Shars stickers on them. LOL.


----------



## Dan_S (Nov 3, 2015)

I wonder if i can buy direct from the central supplier, and what the minimum order size is.


----------

