# Who's used an annular cutter on their mill?



## sanddan

I've seen these cutters being used on the Bridgeport style mill with R8 collets but I'm not sure if I am looking at the correct ones. Most common is the 12,000 series Hougen cutters made for a mag drill.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252791795581?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

The shank is 3/4" but looks like it might be too short. Has anyone used this model or do you need the 53,000 series industrial version with the longer shank?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hougen-Rota...bc69b9d&pid=100033&rk=2&rkt=8&sd=252791795581


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## mksj

Hi Dan,
Both Paco (Firestopper), and I use the cutters in your first link directly (and the ones below) in our mills and with an adapter in our laths. I use a 3/4" R-8 collet in the mill, although there are also dedicated folders with an R-8 shank. On the lathe  we have a  MT3 adapter that holds the cutters. The annular cutters work very well with some lubricant, and gentle even pressure, clearing the chips about every 1/8" of depth. Usually around 250-300 RPM, but depends on the size of the annular cutter. I used them to cut the 5/8" holes in 1/2" steel plate for my lathe stand, much easier and quicker than regular drills.
Mark

These are reasonably priced, but the first one is only 1" DOC. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ROTO-KUT-MAXX-ANNULAR-CUTTER-KIT-KIT-NO-82-2930-/332143459565
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANNULAR-CUTTERS-SET-2-DEPTH-HIGH-SPEED-STEEL-new-8PCS-SET/310348228107


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## carlquib

Annular cutters are a wonderful addition to your tooling arsenal. One of the great things about them is they don't care if you are cutting a full circle or not. They also drop the horsepower requirement for large holes. My Bridgeport is only a  2hp and it isn't any problem to drill a 2" hole in 4140. Another benefit is holes are more accurately sized and positioned with an annular cutter. In the mill I just hold them in a 3/4" collet most of the time but they have r8 holders as well as almost any other machine taper. I have holders for r8, mt3, mt4 and nmbt 40. The advantage of the holder is the spring loaded ejection pin that helps get the slug out and align the hole if you don't need to be that accurate. I'm partial to the 2" depth of cut, they cost a little more than the 1" but the extra depth is useful.

Hello, my name is Brian and I'm a toolaholic!


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## sanddan

Thanks you guys, that's the info I needed.

Mark, are you using Hougen brand or off shore? I'm leaning toward sticking with a name brand, pay a little extra up front for the quality.


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## ddickey

I bought a Hougen Copperhead on Ebay for $7.25 shipped.


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## sanddan

ddickey said:


> I bought a Hougen Copperhead on Ebay for $7.25 shipped.



That's a "You Suck" price, good score!


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## ddickey

This is the one I bought. Maybe it's cheaper as it is not a very large one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hougen-...986517?hash=item3f670f2955:g:NBcAAOSwGIRXcWX6


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## Firestopper

Have used annular cutter before I acquired a mag drill. Like mentioned, they cut great and produce a great holes or 1/2 holes. I use them more on the lathe than the mill. Only draw back on the lathe is depth.
Example of saving time on lathe work (1-13/16") and the coupon/slug can still be used for another smaller project.




I have purchase Jancy and Hougen from different sellers on eBay (new) on the cheap.


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## Silverbullet

There almost a joy to use in a magnet drill. I have a magnet drill and use it often I use to use center drill and step up to the final size drilling. But I started buying these instead , they cut steel like butter , produce clean holes and last . I've used them on my drill press and lathe have mill to use them in now just not set up yet.


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## sanddan

Paco,

That's a big one there, did you make the holder or buy?

I was thinking I would only use it on the mill but I can see it would be a time saver as I don't have any drill bits above 1".


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## mksj

I have the annular cutters from the links posted, the Kimball is US made and comparable to the Hougen, he also sells a larger set, the major limitation is the 1" DOC.  I have seen some sets that come up in various sizes, I would say it is a waiting and searching game to find what your looking for without busting the bank. In particular on the larger cutters, they can get pricey quickly. My limited experience in using them, I would say they are preferable over conventional drills at 1/2" and above, you also do not need to drill sequential holes to remove material. The hole finish is also much better than hole saws. My concern would be stability when using much larger annular cutters that have a stub shaft.

Holders, they are also sold by some US vendors:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnetic-dr...3-to-3-4-Weldon-Shank-MC00-0003-/151503759911
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Accusize-An...don-Shank-for-Drill-use-Annular-/262835774228
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AccusizeToo...rill-Use-Annular-Cutter-for-Mil-/292024453162


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## Firestopper

Dan, I can vouch for the Canadian machine tool 3MT to 3/4" weldon adaptor. Very good quality for the money, as far as mill use, a 3/4" collet works fine. As far as stability, thats gonna depend on the machine in terms of rigidness. I always lock the mill table when using any kind of hole-saw or annular cutter of a larger size, especially when coping tube or pipe.  The lathe application is even more stable as the material is rotating in secured chuck so long as the tailstock spindle isn't out too far from the start.
The slower RPM's ( 250-300) and lube with a surfer base cutting oil works very well but any side load will result in breakage. When drilling with these, introduce gently but once it stats the cut there a rhythm like anything else, look, listen, and feel. That said, don't "loiter" and back out to clear the birds nest (with a brush) re-lube and repeat. As far as depth of cut, that really depends on size and RPM, but a good rule I live by is once smoke appears or the birds nest poses a hazard, rinse and repeat. I have yet to break one so why change the process.  FWIW, the large cutter in the previous photo was purchased  new for $30 on eBay some years back. In fact all of my annulars have been purchased on eBay for very little and all came new in sleeves.  I will add, many awesome deals on eBay have sort of dried up over the past few years but once in a while one comes along. 


I don't use them on a daily basis, but when they are used, they save time.


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## bss1

Thanks for all of the info guys. Coincidentally I had ordered a few of these cutters from MSC earlier this week. I had recently been drilling some 1" holes in steel plate with conventional bits and thought there must be a better way.


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## sanddan

I've used the sheet metal versions, they are way better than a hole saw and give a clean cut. I needed to cut 1 1/2" holes in 3/16" plate and tried to use one (even though they state are only for 1/8" thick material max) and ended up breaking it. I tried it on the drill press first but mine doesn't go slow enough so I moved to the mill. Speed was good but a chip jammed in the cut and BOOM, no more cutter. That's what I get for using the wrong tool for the job.

I will be getting some different sizes in the 2" DOC as I find them. No super cheap deals on ebay right now but I'll keep looking.


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## Firestopper

The electrician's "Holcutter's" are awesome for thin stuff. I especially like the shoulder that prevents over penetrating the blade when drilling electrical panels. I found the set on ebay as well.


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## Rustrp

I've used the annular cutters in my mag drill for about 20 years, drilled 100's of holes without needing to resharpen (re-sharpend them for about half price of new), and I had my first  when using a 9/16" on the mill. My best guess is I was a little heavy on the feed and $35  flew away. This cutter was a Jancy, but I have, and use Hougen, Black & Decker (I've had those awhile) and Unibor which is made in England. Tooth geometry is the only difference I see but the Hougen seems to cut better in stainless, which was 1" through 304 3/4" bar. I don't think the length if the 3/4" shaft is an issue with the R8 holder. 

I was taught to never trade labor for material, so I have always made a habit of buying high quality cutting tools because anything less costs money.  I usually buy the cutters for the job I'm doing so I have  1", 2" and 3" lengths and they can be re-sharpened. I do shop Ebay but time constraints dictate I purchase from my industrial supplier in most cases. Time is money.


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## EmilioG

Can the 12,000 series Hougen annular cutters work with a BP type r8 round smooth collet or do you need the arbor/ejector pin ?
I would like to buy the 1" DOC, 3/4" Hougen 12,000 series cutter but if I have to buy the arbor, I may pass and continue using a hole saw.
(too many other expenses right now).


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## Rustrp

EmilioG said:


> Can the 12,000 series Hougen annular cutters work with a BP type r8 round smooth collet or do you need the arbor/ejector pin ?
> I would like to buy the 1" DOC, 3/4" Hougen 12,000 series cutter but if I have to buy the arbor, I may pass and continue using a hole saw.
> (too many other expenses right now).



The pin that comes with the cutter doesn't work in the R8 so there's no point in an extra purchase. I haven't done it yet because I haven't had my mill that long but  I plan on making an ejector for use with the R8. There's really no need to use the pin for centering so I use a sharp scribe to push the plug out of the cutter and sometines they fall out if you use enough lubricant.

When I have needed a pin and didn't have one I just ground a center on an old drill bit that fits. Center punch the shank so it doesn't drop through and you're ready. Unless I'm drilling a lot of holes with a quick setup, I never fill the oil well so there's no need for the oil port on the pin either.


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## EmilioG

So an R8 collet will work? The shank looks so short on the 12,000 series cutters.


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## Rustrp

EmilioG said:


> So an R8 collet will work? The shank looks so short on the 12,000 series cutters.



I think if we consider the grip length of every holder or the length of every shank for every cutting tool we use, the shank on the annular cutters are more than sufficient. The R8 collets grip from an average 1/2" - 1 1/2", from the smallest to the largest collet available. Read my comment dated 03/13. I have never crashed a cutter when using my mag drill and I blew up a cutter for the first time ever on my mill, so I got a lesson on how  much muscle to put into it. As I stated it was 9/16" and I pulled it into the material a bit heavy.


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## EmilioG

Will an end mill holder, R8, hold these annular cutters and not spin?


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## Rustrp

EmilioG said:


> Will an end mill holder, R8, hold these annular cutters and not spin?


 The shank of the annular cutter has a small section (about 3/16") between the two flats cut for the set screws. I make sure I get this positioned between the slots of the R8 collet and tighten with the same force I would on any other cutter and I have had no problems. 

I use my 3/4" R8 collet. As I stated earlier, it gripped well enough to twist and crash a 9/16" cutter.


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## EmilioG

I guess I'll pass on these until I can get the arbor.  R8 Arbors are $223!  I'll use my Lenox hole saws and Criterion boring heads for now.


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## ddickey

Why don't you make an arbor, like this


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## Rustrp

EmilioG said:


> I guess I'll pass on these until I can get the arbor.  R8 Arbors are $223!  I'll use my Lenox hole saws and Criterion boring heads for now.


You would only need one R8 X 3/4" collet although if you're buying annular cutters too that gets spendy, but I thought you already had the cutters.


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## EmilioG

Nice looking arbor D. Did you check TIR? I don't know if I can make an arbor with .002" TIR


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## ddickey

I did not check but visually I can't see any movement. The first one I made there there definitely was some run-out. So I scraped it and remade this one. Is is a very close slip fit.


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## scwhite

sanddan said:


> I've seen these cutters being used on the Bridgeport style mill with R8 collets but I'm not sure if I am looking at the correct ones. Most common is the 12,000 series Hougen cutters made for a mag drill.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252791795581?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> The shank is 3/4" but looks like it might be too short. Has anyone used this model or do you need the 53,000 series industrial version with the longer shank?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hougen-Rotabroach-1-25-Cutter-Lot-of-3-1-1-4-x-3-x-3-4-1-1-4-x-2-x-3-4/121805820929?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=41375&meid=c9a37ca237ac4423815f47d86bc69b9d&pid=100033&rk=2&rkt=8&sd=252791795581


That twist on that cutter will suck it out of a R8
    If you are sidemilling a plate .
 You will need a R8 Arbor with the set screw to run it 
Best and not have to worry about it pulling out of your collet.
      I had one pull out years ago . I was 
In my  apprenticeship when my boss 
Handed me a print that required a good straight 
Side to work from and a square plate 3/4 x 24" long 
So I set the plate up on the table no vice on 1/2 or 3/8 strips of steel  so the end of the cutter would 
Clear the table . I put it in the 3/4 collet - it was all he had to hold the end mill . 
     I was happy with my set up . 
    I started cutting full length I was taking a good steady cut not to big but .015 to .030 deep on the side of that plate . I had coolent and the chips was  piling up on the table as I was cutting .
      I got the the end of the plate .
        I stopped the mill and brushed the chips away 
And I had the prettiest tapered slot you ever did see right in the table top on a Bridgeport mill .
       He went the next day and bought a set of Arbors .
   Those chips had it all covered up and that end mill was sucking out of the collet all the time .


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## sanddan

scwhite,

These aren't endmills, they are only for drilling holes. Any time you are using them you will have pressure keeping the rotobroach in the collet.


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## Rustrp

scwhite said:


> Those chips had it all covered up and that end mill was sucking out of the collet all the time .


I only use them for light milling in aluminum if I need an obround hole, otherwise it's drilling holes.


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## EmilioG

A DIY arbor would be great in O1 tool steel so it can be heat treated. O1 is very expensive when you start getting into 1" diameter and up.
An R8 is a lot of work to turn and takes a lot of skill. Maybe down the line, I may revisit annular cutters again, but for now, I don't really have a need.


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## scwhite

sanddan said:


> scwhite,
> 
> These aren't endmills, they are only for drilling holes. Any time you are using them you will have pressure keeping the rotobroach in the collet.


Oh I thought it was a mill cutter .
    Guess I don't know what it is . 
I need to go back and look at these closer . 
     Thanks for letting me know


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## scwhite

sanddan said:


> scwhite,
> 
> These aren't endmills, they are only for drilling holes. Any time you are using them you will have pressure keeping the rotobroach in the collet.


I will have go back and look at those
I don't guess I even know what these are ?????


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## EmilioG

http://www.hougen.com/downloads/Hougen_Mag_Drill_&_Annular_Cutter_Guide.pdf


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## scwhite

EmilioG said:


> http://www.hougen.com/downloads/Hougen_Mag_Drill_&_Annular_Cutter_Guide.pdf


Ok 
Wow 
    I like that cutter . I never have used any of those 
I think it would work good on thin metal


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## xman_charl

use these on mill and lathe

mt3 with R8 adapter for mill ....tailstock lathe is mt3









Charl


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## EmilioG

Could I use an old R8 JT arbor and turn it into an arbor for smaller annular cutters? 3/4" shank cutters?


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## Alan H.

Here's a MT3 Weldon shank for the lathe (also for a drill press).  It is available at a more attractive price through Amazon than via ebay..


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## EmilioG

If they made an arbor for annular cutters in straight shank or R8, that is reasonably priced, that would be great.
Making one from O1 tool steel then heat treating is a fairly expensive and time consuming proposition.


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## EmilioG

Hougen does make a USA quality made arbor for $67.00, coolant collar optional. These arbors are used with 12,000 series/1" DOC tools. 3/4" , but this one is NOT for machine tools.  The correct arbor for machines costs around $185.00 for R8 or SS.  The one pictured is for stationary tools and drill chucks.  Maybe I'll find a good one on Ebay for less.


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## Flying A

EmilioG said:


> Will an end mill holder, R8, hold these annular cutters and not spin?


Yes it will work! I used one where I cut the tapered face off till the cutter lined up with the set screw. Worked great,holders are cheaper


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## EmilioG

Good to hear.  The annular cutters I would like to use are 3/4" shanked with two flats.  Theoretically, it should work fine.
A sliding fit for the tool shank and two counter-bored set screws.


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## darkzero

Thanks to Alan I now have the same holder he got for use in the lathe. I was going to order the R8 holder also for the mill but Alan "convinced" it wasn't needed. I'll just hold them in my ER40 collet chuck or use the R8 to MT3 adapter if that doesn't work out for some reason.

Gotta love Amazon. Added the holder to an oder I was placing early this morning. Received the order the same day today, and best of all on a Sunday. Not my first order like this but it's really awesome.


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## umahunter

Can you hold these in a 3/4 inch r8 collet? ?? Anyone  ever try it ????


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## Hawkeye

I use my 3/4" shank annulars in a 3/4" tailstock chuck. It holds them tightly, so I'd expect a collet to work well, especially if the ridge between the flats is against a solid segment of the collet.


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## umahunter

Would  one of these work 3/4 endmill holder guess I could always drill and tap the other side to add another set screw


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## Rustrp

umahunter said:


> Would  one of these work 3/4 endmill holder guess I could always drill and tap the other side to add another set screw
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 233676


I'm sure it would work but if you have a R8 x 3/4" I'm not sure why you would want to buy a holder with set screws. If I didn't have a 3/4" collet I would order one.


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## uncle harry

scwhite said:


> Ok
> Wow
> I like that cutter . I never have used any of those
> I think it would work good on thin metal



Yes they do.  I have a 30 mm for providing holes for push buttons. It's absolutely necessary to clamp or otherwise secure thin stock if the cutter has no pilot.


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## Firestopper

Rustrp said:


> I'm sure it would work but if you have a R8 x 3/4" I'm not sure why you would want to buy a holder with set screws. If I didn't have a 3/4" collet I would order one.



 Sometimes it gets very congested with the table cranked up. This R-8 weldon adaptor would be a nice addition for those awkward pieces requiring a larger precise hole.


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## Rustrp

firestopper said:


> Sometimes it gets very congested with the table cranked up. This R-8 weldon adaptor would be a nice addition for those awkward pieces requiring a larger precise hole.


 
I'm confused as how inserting the annular cutter directly into the collet would increase congestion. One 3/4" R8 collet would accept any of the annular cutters from many different manufactures and the length of the cutter extending from the end of the collet would be a maximum of 4" with a cutter designed for 3" depth of cut. Yes the holder would work but why would I want to purchase an end mill holder when the R8 collet will do the job? I'm aware of the pros and cons or opinions of using a solid holder vs a collet when addressing end mill creap, but the cutter isn't an end mill, it's designed for drilling fast accurate holes.

Edit; In reading your comment again, are you referring to workpiece conjestion or ability to reach far enough, close enough, etc. without the quill interfering?


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## Firestopper

Correct, sometimes it's nice to have more clearance and not have the table cranked up.


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## umahunter

My question  was basically cost wise I can buy an  r8 3/4 annular holder with 2 set screws for around  70 bucks but a 3/4 endmill holder with one set screw is 25 just wondering if a single set screw is enough if not add one more and save 50 bucks


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## umahunter

I ordered a 3/4 annular cutter that I will try in just a r8 collet if that doesn't work then I guess I'll buy a holder


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## Rustrp

umahunter said:


> My question  was basically cost wise I can buy an  r8 3/4 annular holder with 2 set screws for around  70 bucks but a 3/4 endmill holder with one set screw is 25 just wondering if a single set screw is enough if not add one more and save 50 bucks



If I was weighing this on $$ I would buy the end mill holder and drill and tap it, that is if I thought I needed two set screws. I guess we could walk into the theory arena to examine why an end mill is held with one set screw and an annular cutter uses two. My mag drill, like most mag drills, will not allow me to retract the spindle to eject the plug without both setscrews tightened, so I always use two. 

I would be hard pressed to differentiate and declare between the two holders which was designed to hold which tool, based on the number of set screws. At the same time I would be inclined to lower the table and extend the quill in an operation detailed in firestopper's photo, versus placing the annular cutter in a tool holder. I think these are personal preference but I think the farther away from the spindle we go with the cutter, the farther away we move from accuracy.


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## Firestopper

Save your money and just use a 3/4" collet then.  I use a 3/4"collet on the mill (for now), but was trying to relay a dedicated R8 3/4" weldon adaptor would be nice to prevent the traffic jam. 
As far as accuracy, if your mill is rigid and you lock X,Y down your fine.  These cutters will cut a 1/2 hole (cope pipe) without missing a beat so long as nothing moves. I plan on buying a dedicated adaptor soon to compliment a host of annular cutters I already own.


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## umahunter

Well I bought a 1/2 cutter on ebay for 9.74 to try out which I thought was a pretty good price compared to 30 or more they were going for last I checked it's Chinese so will see how it goes


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