# I found a VN12



## Shopsweeper (Nov 2, 2012)

It turns out that a VN12 followed me home today.  

1phase, R8, low motor.  May be an ex-Navy machine. 
Here are two pics that the PO took.





More news later.  Right now I am too tired from loading, hauling and cleaning.  More details in the days ahead.


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## alandarkdale (Nov 2, 2012)

PO = previous owner. Gee, I teach middle school and PO means Parole Officer.


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## OakRidgeGuy (Nov 2, 2012)

PO = http://www.acronymfinder.com/PO.html

I noticed that it also list Police Officer.. but in todays world.. that is POPO!


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## 8ntsane (Nov 3, 2012)

Nice find

Seems those VN#12s are turning up all over the place.
You mention R-8, I was under the impression they all were 5V collets.
But I could be wrong about that.:thinking:

Enjoy your new toy:drink2:


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 3, 2012)

They are most* all C (or 5V in Common use).  At some point my mill visited Burd Machenery Rebuilders in Toledo, OH. Either Burd or a Previous Owner must have converted her.

*I have herd tell that 16s, 22s an 38s were often MADE with other sized spindles.  But one does not hear this of 12s much.


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## jumps4 (Nov 3, 2012)

nice find, it's looks ready to use by the swarf piles. they are pretty glistening in the shop lights
looks like you got some tooling also
keep us posted
steve


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 3, 2012)

Bad news, Good news.

Bad:
My "R8" looks to be a C with a fabbed-up R8 collet bar.  So much for being lucky.

Good:
The ways and the side of the Ram show clear hand-scraping marks proudly (the marks on the side of the head were hidden behind a poor coat of grey paint).  Scraping ways one of the first parts of machining I ever learned about, and it put me off machine work for about 25 years.   I have no desire to do it again, and no need.  They are more gold than blue in the sunlight.  I wish gramps where still around - he could probably have told me how that signified the different irons.

Other:
I have some C (5V) stuff somewhere.  I bought a .gov lot years ago with some funny looking tooling and researched it until I found out that it was 5V and put it away.  Now I need to find it.

My 12 is about 1/3 clean.  I will put her indoors tonight once I am sure that she won't puddle oil on my floor.  The handles are soaking in water/degreaser.  The dials are in the ultrasonic cleaner with about 3 lots of bolts and misc. bits waiting.

Now I just need to figure out how to pull the spindle head for a good flush and soak.  I can already tell that a day of gasket making is in my future.


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## Cal Haines (Nov 3, 2012)

Shopsweeper said:


> Bad news, Good news.
> 
> Bad:
> My "R8" looks to be a C with a fabbed-up R8 collet bar.  So much for being lucky.
> ...


I'm not sure I understand the part about the R8 collet bar.  R8 collets have an internal drawbar thread; C collets have an external thread and use a draw-tube.

The cutter-head is held on by the 3 bolts.  The easy way to pull one is to block it up on the table in some fashion and use the table to move the head away from the ram.  A vertical bar held in a collet in the cutter head and clamped in the vise works great.

Inspect the drive key on the spindle that is driven by the ring gear and make sure it's not all beat up.  Take the end plates off so that you can clean the old grease out of the bearings, but don't mess with the bolts that lock the ring gear in position on the spindle.

I have the manual for that machine if you need it (there are at least 3 different versions of the manual, depending on the vintage of the machine).

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 3, 2012)

Cal Haines said:


> I'm not sure I understand the part about the R8 collet bar.  R8 collets have an internal drawbar thread; C collets have an external thread and use a draw-tube.
> 
> _Cal_



Bad nomelclature on my part.  The PO got this machine as part of a building purchase.  He inherited R8 tooling with it - most of a set of collets, a (sort of) Horz bar, etc.  He had an R8 in the nose when he test ran the mill for me.  All of those collets in the PO's pic where R8, etc.

But it is not so.  The cutter head spindle dimensions out to be C.  Its just missing the "key".  I can only suppose that one and maybe two POs were running this thing with R8 jammed up the nose and pulled up tight with a drawbar (included).  

A clue should have been that a "draw tube" that is obviously C (5V) came with the machine.  I am just not that familiar with C - I have only seen collets in person not the draw tube before this.

I have some phone pics, but they are too high-rez for me to upload.  I will have to dither them down.

This mill has, for some amount of time, been running R8s in a spindle that is NOT ground out for them - the R8s sit proud and a little loosy.  The 5V (C) clicks in like it was made for it.

Thanks for the Head help.  I have 2 versions of that manual - one of them has drawings that match my head.  But I am having issues.  I have the bolts loose - but the #3 bolt (The one with a nut that sits between the cutter head and the ram) is not coming down far enough - I was thinking that the Round end of the cresent slot was to the way to take that bolt out - as the drawings have the nut (J-190?) being wide (round). - As in I was trying to lay the cutter head just beyond Horizontal to take the nut out of that hole -and even with the lower stop removed (12-524) it will not lay down any further.

What you may be saying is that I simply need to loosed them all and them pull with tremendous force.  I Did not try this.  I tried a good amount - but only what one human can do with no tools - I'm not wanting to damage anything.  Let me know if I am reading you right and that force to the left is my friend (I have snapped more that one semi lug nut with a lug wrench 
-so if you tell me force I can supply it).

Pics added now.  Top pic is C in the nose.  
Next Pic is R8 in the nose. 
Last attached pic shows R8 bar, C tube, and a Horz bar in R8 made from an end mill holder and a threaded 1" rod?!?


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## Cal Haines (Nov 4, 2012)

Shopsweeper said:


> Bad nomelclature on my part.  The PO got this machine as part of a building purchase.  He inherited R8 tooling with it - most of a set of collets, a (sort of) Horz bar, etc.  He had an R8 in the nose when he test ran the mill for me.  All of those collets in the PO's pic where R8, etc.
> 
> But it is not so.  The cutter head spindle dimensions out to be C.  Its just missing the "key".  I can only suppose that one and maybe two POs were running this thing with R8 jammed up the nose and pulled up tight with a drawbar (included).
> 
> ...


OK, that's very odd.  An R8 collet has an OD of 0.95" whereas a 'C' collet has and OD of 0.85.  An R8 collet won't fit in an unmodified C spindle.  It sounds like someone bored out the spindle to 0.95" but left the C taper.  Does that appear to be what happened?



Shopsweeper said:


> Thanks for the Head help.  I have 2 versions of that manual - one of them has drawings that match my head.  But I am having issues. ...


The same basic cutter-head (with some minor differences) was used on later machines, but your ram gearbox has ball bearings.  Later models used tapered roller bearings.  Here's page 12 of the manual that you need (I have the whole manual in a PDF):





Shopsweeper said:


> ... I have the bolts loose - but the #3 bolt (The one with a nut that sits  between the cutter head and the ram) is not coming down far enough - I  was thinking that the Round end of the cresent slot was to the way to  take that bolt out - as the drawings have the nut (J-190?) being wide  (round). - As in I was trying to lay the cutter head just beyond  Horizontal to take the nut out of that hole -and even with the lower  stop removed (12-524) it will not lay down any further.
> 
> What you may be saying is that I simply need to loosed them all and them pull with tremendous force.  I Did not try this.  I tried a good amount - but only what one human can do with no tools - I'm not wanting to damage anything.  Let me know if I am reading you right and that force to the left is my friend (I have snapped more that one semi lug nut with a lug wrench
> -so if you tell me force I can supply it).
> ...


OK.  I can see from your photos that the cutter-head is free to rotate, so it's not glued to the ram, that's good.  It also sounds like you are able to loosen all 3 nuts.  I misspoke when I called them bolts, above. The two in front are long tube nuts, the one in back is a standard nut but (at least on my No. 16) it has an odd size; IIRC, I had to use a metric wrench on mine.  The nuts engage T-bolts that run in the arc-shaped slots.  You can't get the T-bolts out of their slots without removing the cutter-head.  You should be able to remove the front tube-bolts.  There should be a spring and washer behind the tube-bolt; be careful not to loose the washers.  As you back out the rear nut it will bind against the cutter-head.  At that point it's time to separate the cutter-head from the ram, as discussed above.  The cutter-head pivots on the outer race of the left bearing for the gearbox output shaft (the bearing is pressed into the ram so that part of the outer race stands proud of the machined face of the ram by 1/4" or so).  The cutter-head is a close fit to the bearing race, so you have to be careful not to bind it during removal, hence the need to support the cutter-head as discussed previously.  If you were horsing on the cutter-head trying to pull it off you probably twisted it and it’s binding on the bearing race.  Make sure the head is free to rotate before you try removing it; pull it back down against the ram with the binder nuts if necessary.  A few light taps with a dead blow hammer may be needed to encourage the head to move as you traverse the table to draw the cutter-head off of the bearing race, but it should be fairly effortless and extreme force IS NOT required.  You will need to back of the rear nut from time to time as you pull the head.

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 4, 2012)

Cal,

Thank you for the time and brainshare.  I'm away from the shop now (earning a living to feed my habits).

The R8s would not "seat" well - I do not think they are resting on the taper - note how far the R8 sticks out.

The C "clicked" in and it was obviously resting on the taper.

I need to spend some real time with a good internal mic (or at least a non-floopy set of dividers) when I get home. I am not sure what I am dealing with yet.

I would take you up the manual - it sounds more specific to my machine than what I am using.

As for my cutter head - it is turning fine - but it won't move to the left.  I will try blocking up to the table next weekend.

Thank you again,
Devon


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## Cal Haines (Nov 4, 2012)

The manual has been sent.

Make sure you check the depth of the bore.  R8 collets are a bit longer than a 'C' collet.  You don't want the tail end of the collet able to wiggle around.  I'm thinking that you will want some sort of sleeve for use with 'C' collets (and I would ditch the R8s).

One problem here is that Van Norman spindles are not hardened all the way through, so when you bore one out you have soft area in contact with the collet.  Unless the bubba that did this heat treated the spindle to harden the new bore, you've got a bit of a problem...

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you for the manual, Cal.  I have the cutter head off now.  I just needed a bit of "tapping" with a dead blow top and bottom.  

But, the taper is VN C all the way.  Yet the spindle has been bored out to R8 size.

My options:

1.  Try to grind out existing spindle to a more true R8.  I have never ground this way and I may be unequal to the task - but there is enough meat to try it for sure.
2.  Send the spindle out to have spindle ground to R8.
3.  See what a new spindle (VN PN: 12-756) might cost to make in C (5V).
4.  See what a new spindle might cost to make in R8.
5.  Try to find a part from RPI (called Gene last week - not looking great).
6.  Make a collar/adapter for the shaft of the collet and run 5V (per Cal below).
7.  Fab-up a special R8/5V crossbreed TTS or Royal toolholder adapter just for this mill.


I can probably turn the work part way down for 3 and 4 on my Clausing (stuck at 900  RPM due to Vari Drive failure) and send the part out to be hardened and ground.  

The downside to R8 is that it is not as rigid for Horz work (they say).  But I can easily fix this with some kind of "soft" blocks in the 1/2 slots between my spindle nose and my CUSTOM made Horz mill bars (note: these bars are fictional at this time so they can have all sorts of features).

I have some Tormeck Tooling System stuff from a horse trade 3 years ago - and I did some measuring.  I would be giving up some precious Vert space with a tool system "in the middle" I think.

I suspect 3 and 4 (making new spindles) are going too pricey to contemplate - $600 to $1000 in metal and labor most likely - unless I do some of the work here first.

Please let me know if you think of anything else - or a reason why one of these is a TERRIBLE idea.

Thank you all!


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## Cal Haines (Nov 10, 2012)

Devon,

First of all, before you take the spindle apart, you need to carefully measure and mark the current position of the nut that holds the ring gear in position along the length of the spindle.  This is because it's critical to put it back in the same position so that it meshes correctly with the pinon gear.  Put witness marks on the gear, nut and spindle (you can use the keyway in the spindle as one of the witness marks).  Count the number of exposed threads on the spindle and measure the distance from the nut to some convenient surface on the casting.

Van Norman spindles are not hardened all the way through, so any grinding, etc., should be followed by heat treating and final grinding.  Not cheap.  Plus what do you do if the spindle warps during heat treat?

Personally, I would sleeve the spindle back to 'C' using something like 4140 HT (pre-hardened).  You should be able to bore the sleeve right in the spindle using a boring head locked to the table in some fashion.  You can buy a set of 5V/C collets and endmill holders from http://www.tools4cheap.net/ for less than you will spend doing a proper conversion to R8.  If you convert to R8 you close the door on using VN accessories like the slotter and high speed universal head, should one come your way.

When they did this half-a$$ed conversion, did they add a key for the R8 collets?

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 10, 2012)

Cal Haines said:


> When they did this half-a$$ed conversion, did they add a key for the R8 collets?
> 
> _Cal_



Cal,

Thanks again.  I was wondering about those safety-wired nuts around the bore.  I will witness all and maybe supplement with some High Rez photographs - before (if) I take it apart.

As for the R8 key - nope.  This is why I was dreaming up some kind of R8 "mill dog" situation to supplement R8 friction alone for Horz work.

The positive "renewal" news is that the handweels, the arbor support, cutter head door, etc have been stripped, ultrasonic cleaned and sit awaiting paint (cleaner than they have ever been).  
I pulled 1 chip of the 6 coats of paint (saftey blue, yellow, white, grey, light grey, green) and I did a little computer "amalgamation" by sampling the chips and averaging the result.  The result was about "pea green".  This is my new target mill color by way homage to the mill's past.

The new bad news is as follows:
1.  I thought I had 4 perfect handweels - not so.  One of them was welded (or silver braised?) in the middle of one spoke.  A great grinding and painting job was done - but so great a weld as it has a hairline crack in the middle.  They probably did not heat the area enough or grind down far enough before fixing.  This I CAN fix.
2.  I have not started on the electric yet, but I opened the box to pull some wires out (for a 110 lamp).  I have a sneaking suspicion that my 1ph motor was simply a 3ph that some guy was running on 1ph.  I feel just a tad sick to my stomach when I think about this so the electrical will wait for another day.  I have both RFC (may shop has a 5hp RFC) and various VFD solutions tucked into Listas and cardboard boxes in the corners of the shop.  So really, its a resale hit if 3ph.  But I don't plan to sell.

I'm going out for Chinese food if I can get my hands clean...


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## Cal Haines (Nov 10, 2012)

Shopsweeper said:


> ...
> I pulled 1 chip of the 6 coats of paint (saftey blue, yellow, white, grey, light grey, green) and I did a little computer "amalgamation" by sampling the chips and averaging the result.  The result was about "pea green".  This is my new target mill color by way homage to the mill's past.
> ...


That sir, is WAAAAY over the top. :rocker:             





Shopsweeper said:


> 2.  I have not started on the electric yet, ...  I have a sneaking suspicion that my 1ph motor was simply a 3ph that some guy was running on 1ph. ...



I'm working on a low-motor No. 12 with a single phase motors.  Check the tags on the feed and main motors to be sure.

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 10, 2012)

If its warm next weekend I will paint the arbor support as a test and post a pic.  I'm going to call the color "edamame", but it looks awfully pea green to me.

I cannot abide the Forest Green from the factory.  And my shop has enough gray in it already.  White gets dirty too easy.  Pea Green may be the ticket.

Talked to Keith at Total Shop Services in VA on the phone today (the man was at work on a Sat!).  He's willing to tackle my spindle if I end up sending it out.  I wonder if I should ship him the whole cutterhead - that way he can factor the bearings, etc on the R8 re-re-grind job.  I have a friend up in Tulsa who is willing to do the job after hours at his workplace for favors and tacos - But I found Total Shop Services by looking for shops that do lots of spindle work for happy customers.  What is the point of putting Time and TLC into a machine that is "sort of" accurate?


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## Cal Haines (Nov 11, 2012)

Shopsweeper said:


> ...
> Talked to Keith at Total Shop Services in VA on the phone today (the man was at work on a Sat!).  He's willing to tackle my spindle if I end up sending it out.  I wonder if I should ship him the whole cutterhead - that way he can factor the bearings, etc on the R8 re-re-grind job.  I have a friend up in Tulsa who is willing to do the job after hours at his workplace for favors and tacos - But I found Total Shop Services by looking for shops that do lots of spindle work for happy customers.  What is the point of putting Time and TLC into a machine that is "sort of" accurate?


Did he give you an idea what it would cost?  What did he have to say about heat treating it?

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 11, 2012)

Cal Haines said:


> Did he give you an idea what it would cost?  What did he have to say about heat treating it?
> 
> _Cal_



The approx cost would be between 400 to 1600 depending on lots of factors.  Simple regrind on the low end to new spindle on the high end.  He did say that they ground out some of these for a large production company a while back so he is familiar with the VN setup.

The problem, of course, is that 1600 is a lot more than I have in the machine right now.  This is normally the problem with seeking out "the best" - they get remunerated highly.  I'm going to talk with a place here in Tulsa and one in Fort Smith, AR this week about the work.  I just don't want to send it to any job shop around.

I am seriously considering pulling the spindle and whipping up a CAD version in Alibre and shopping just THAT part around to some internet CNC job shops.  I figure I can pull the IDs from the specs of the 5V tooling and the ODs should be measurable (the nose is 2.125 inches on the dot).

This would let me compare fab jobs to regrind jobs dollar to dollar.  I approach decisions like and old dog lays down - I circle around a few times first.  

My consulting Tool and Die Maker (dad) says that I should STILL do the final few thou ON the mill to eliminate run-out on any new spindle.

We did not talk heat treat for long enough - I still don't know what his low end plan would get me - likely a soft spindle.


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## Cal Haines (Nov 11, 2012)

I like the idea of getting some bids on the spindle.  You could probably sell a few of to help with your costs.  I can help you with any missing dimensions.  Can Alibre export a DWG file?

But I really, REALLY, REALLY want to discourage you from going the R8 route.  All that's going to buy you is less expensive collets.  But you give up the strength of the drive dogs for C/5V end-mill holders, shell mill holders and arbors (unless you want to invent your own R8/C-dog tooling system, in which case you're not going to come out ahead on the collet savings anyway).  And, as mentioned before, you won't be able to use Van Norman accessory heads  There's absolutely nothing wrong with the C collet system.  Sure, it has a slightly smaller capacity than R8, but you have no business using big end mills in a collet anyway.  Get a set of end mil holders and thank me later.

Don't even consider a regrind of the spindle that doesn't include rough grind, heat treat and finish grind, otherwise you're wasting your money.  As your dad said, the finish grind should be done in the cutter head using it's bearings (no need to grind it on the machine since it's easy to send out the head).  A proper job would probably include building up the sections of the spindle where the bearings sit by either welding or hard chrome and then grinding them true after heat treating.

Since you've got a tool and die maker to help you, why not sleeve and bore the "damaged" part of the spindle back to 'C'.  Maybe he can help you hone it on the machine?  The taper is the most important part as far as aligning the collet or arbor anyway and that's apparently intact.  You could also look for shops that have a Sunnen hone and can hone your sleeve true and to size once you have it rough turned.

_Cal_


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## Cal Haines (Nov 11, 2012)

stoneaxe said:


> Ok, I re-read this thread once more- sounds like the just the bore was altered? Did I understand right there is no keyway in the spindle?
> ...


Yup, some genius bored out the spindle to take the body of an R8 collet, but left the 'C' taper.  I believe that the portion of slot for the key is still in the taper, but the rear part would have been machined away.  The key I was asking about is the key that an R8 spindle has to keep the collet from turning as the drawbar is tightened.  Our genius didn't bother with that either.

This is a clear-cut case of machine tool abuse, if you ask me. :angry:

_Cal_


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 11, 2012)

Short version review:

The spindle is bored out to R8, the tapers are still C.  The only keyway present is for the little VN C key (key missing).  Some kind of non-sheep, non-goat situation was being used to "sort of" drive R8 tooling.

One of my ideas is to re-grind the R8 up some more to get the tapers right.  Its the cheap way out of the issue.  But non-hardened spindle is not so hot.  This is also stepping further away from going back to C (5V).

Forward:
I suppose I should also put CAT30 on the table too - if the spindle has enough "meat" on t bone to do it.

I was thinking about a community generated CAD spindle - I would be happy to shop them out and make up a few extras.  I don't think my version of Alibre exports to .DWG natively but you can get there from here with some utilities.  (I had to move a file to .DWG a few years back and got it done)

I understand that C takes more torque than R8 - but I see that I will need to make my arbors anyway (I have cutters for 1" and 1.25" in my kit today).  I can simply make them with "ears" to match up to the notches on my spindle face today.  So from where I sit - R8 used Vert won't be doing much heavy lifting- and the heavy Horz work will have extra bracing.

On the other hand:  If we are talking NEW spindles here - there is no reason NOT to go C.  I even found a box of C collets from a .gov lot I picked up in OKC a few years back.  I bought the lot to get a Vidmar box and it turned out to be full of tooling.  If I had a 1.5" shell mill holder I would be "complete".

Devon

Ps -I sure wish I knew where these accessory heads are for my 12 are.  I would love to have a 90 degree head for her.  I could just "park" the main head in Horz and flip arbors for a Vert Head!  I understand your argument, but I don't see any of these heads around.  Pps - A boring head for a 22L popped up on ebay today...


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## Cal Haines (Nov 11, 2012)

Shopsweeper said:


> ...
> 
> I understand that C takes more torque than R8 - but I see that I will need to make my arbors anyway (I have cutters for 1" and 1.25" in my kit today).  I can simply make them with "ears" to match up to the notches on my spindle face today. ...



Knock yourself out.  Real live Van Norman arbors come up on eBay from time to time.  R8/C-dog arbors...not so much.  If you got a local CNC shop to make a run of 'C' arbors you could definitely sell them (I'll buy one).  R8/C-dog...No market.

An NMTB 30 spindle would make some sense.  The 16L, which has the same ram gearbox and a cutter-head that's based on the No. 12s was available in 30 taper, so that should work.  But I don't know that you can buy an arbor that will work with a No. 12's overarm arbor support.  Again, C/5V is all you need for this machine.  Give the men that designed it a little credit.

_Cal_


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## franklynb (Nov 12, 2012)

Devon,

Like Cal: I don't really get why you would spend ~as much as a whole #12 in good shape~ to 'fix' an oddball
spindle. Some patient shopping will deliver every feature you've specified as 'nice to have' -- in C. So unless you
have  boatload of R8 _special_ tooling you're trying to adapt -- I don't see the motivation to undertake a
painful, spendy, risky alteration. Cal keeps mentioning "heat treat" _for a reason_.

For instance, I'm pretty sure I saw a VN#12 right angle head on ebay yesterday. I searched "right angle mill heads"
and it popped up. The owner didn't know it was VN#12. I don't think that's <"dunno what model this head is for..."> 
odd among the rare accessories: dividing heads, vises, rotary tables, arbor, overarms, right angle heads and tailstocks
all come up rather often. As often as not, the model/maker info is flawed. So one cannot merely shop "VN#12" and
get a complete view of the pieces available.

On a more helpful note: I can convert Alibre 3d ACIS/.sat files into whatever, including knocking them into .dwg views. 
IF you get that far. It certainly sounds like the road less traveled. Good luck on the journey.

 I suspect you could drive to Cleveland <yeah, from="" ok="" ...="" pick="" your="" nearest="" vn="" liquidator,="" there="" are="" a="" few=""> --or pick a city with a VN liquidator closer to OK--
make a deal to buy a whole #12 head from an industrial liquidator, sell the rest of the machine back to them,
or --sigh-- whistle in a local scrapper, and still have $1000 left over from the cost of re-making an R8 spindle_ properly._

--frankb



Shopsweeper said:


> Short version review:
> ...
> Some kind of non-sheep, non-goat situation was being used to "sort of" drive R8 tooling.
> ...
> ...


</yeah,>


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 12, 2012)

Cal and Frank,

You both are right about C being the right solution for that tool.  I was just leaning toward R8 because my spindle is already 1/2 there and I suspect it is soft already - anyone who did a half way job of opening the bore did not heat treat.  That is just the cheap way out of this trouble - and will create more trouble downstream.

I really appreciate you guys trying to keep me from driving into the ditch.  I learned a long time ago that not everyone who disagrees with me is wrong.  It must say something about the tenacity of machinists that even HOBBY Machinists are stubborn.  

As for another 12 - I have thought about this.  But I am the wrong guy to scrap anything like an old VN.  I actually have a moral issue with destroying these old iron pieces because they will never be made again.  I can spend some time, some cash or I can kick the can down the road.  In for a penny, in for a pound I suppose.

So the real question is to sleeve or to build a new. If I build it will be C.  If I sleeve it will be back to C.  I'm thinking about making a cerrosafe casting of the spindle to get a REAL picture of whats going on up there.  I think I inherited about 5lb of the stuff when grandpa died.  I have cast rifle cambers before but never a tool - my only worry is that if they drilled it out but didn't ream it - by casting could get stuck.  Worst case I can reheat the whole thing to 200F.

On the ebay right angle head that the seller does not know: I think its for a 22 or a 38 myself.  If its the $1k football head - he puts a caliper against it in a pic or two and the bolt spacing for the attachment points is too wide for my 12 anyway (4.129" between the 2 same-side bolt centers).  If you are talking about another subhead I missed it (feel free to pm me a link) and I have been keeping a SHARP eye out for a few months now.

Ps - Tools4cheap.net is shipping me some shell mill holders so I guess I am "All In".  (But NOT in a Petraeus kind of way)


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## Shopsweeper (Nov 13, 2012)

Today's update:

RPI called me back.  They simply don't sell blueprints or drawings at all - in a way this is probably better - because it would stop me from making a CAD blueprint of my own -  it would be too easy to pay them.

The *DO* have a used spindle for my exact model 12!  I was very impressed with this.  But the value that of the spindle to them was (again) more money than I have in the whole machine.  You can't ask for any better parts service than RPI is able to deliver - and I am sorely tempted to just buy my way out of this trouble.  But my machine budget for the year is already long spent.  

The parts are long out of patent, copyright is not an issue because probably only employees of RPI or VN have even seen any drawings/blueprints that exist today (they are the only people with ACCESS to to copy anything today).  We are now in the ballpark of my neighbor making a steering column bracket for his model T by measuring his broken part and sharing his design on the internet.  He didn't copy any Ford plans and the parts he is emulating are LONG out of patent.


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## Shopsweeper (Jun 5, 2013)

Non-update:

I have the cutterhead dismounted, cleaned, and I made a shipping crate for it.  I have not torn it up to measure the spindle yet.

I have a 2013 budget (I ran out of funds last year) now and I am going to start looking at solutions again. 

I'm still looking for that 90 degree vertical subhead....

Devon


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## toag (Jun 11, 2013)

i love the idea of a budget.  mine is myh wife looking over my shoulder when i am on an internet auction... "you can't spend more than $20"


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