# Shop Door Security



## Johnwright

I'm fabricating a locking system for the doors on my new shop.  I have two doors, each 36" wide creating a 6 ft. opening.  My hope is to use 1/4" wall square tubing, one length sliding inside the other, across the 10 ft. span across the width of the building.  My dilema is now how to fabricate a hasp, equal in strength to a hidden shackle lock ( Master #6270KA) that I have chosen to secure the two spans of tubing.  Has anyone's tried to place some type of hardened metal (possibly a hacksaw blade or other item) between two 1/4" laminates of steel to make a (hopefully) hacksaw proof hasp?  The lock is advertised as virtually impossible to access to cut since the shackle is recessed and it seems that the next weak link would be the hasp.  Thanks, JohnW


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## Franko

Have you seen these? This one made by American Padlock. Master makes a very similar one.

Google "Security Hasp"


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## Grumpy Gator

Is there that much crime in the Piney Woods of East Texas ?
My shop is on my property behind the house so between the dogs , lights and firearms I feel safe As insurance I hooked a big air horn to the shop compressor on a trip line that can't be turned off from inside of the shop.
I don't let strangers in my shop and conduct business in the front yard under a shade tree.
If you are in a high crime area get video surveillance.Mark all your tools and machines and make a inventory just in case.Also talk to your insurance company and make sure your covered.
 Let's face it if someone wants it bad enough they will find a way to steal it.
***********Like the Boy Scouts say Be Prepared***********Gator**********


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## Johnwright

grumpygator said:


> Is there that much crime in the Piney Woods of East Texas ?
> My shop is on my property behind the house so between the dogs , lights and firearms I feel safe As insurance I hooked a big air horn to the shop compressor on a trip line that can't be turned off from inside of the shop.
> I don't let strangers in my shop and conduct business in the front yard under a shade tree.
> If you are in a high crime area get video surveillance.Mark all your tools and machines and make a inventory just in case.Also talk to your insurance company and make sure your covered.
> Let's face it if someone wants it bad enough they will find a way to steal it.
> ***********Like the Boy Scouts say Be Prepared***********Gator**********


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## Johnwright

No Gator, not a lot of around here, but as a retired LEO I know that that I can't get complacent about theft or burglary.  I had a reputation as a no nonsense cop, but after working many cases, I still haven't put all of them in jail.  Yes, I have always been careful about who I let around my place and yet am aware that the next tweaker that passes by just might get curious about what he can steal.  I learned that if a location simply appears hardened against entry, that same tweaker just might pass me by.  Now, back to the question, can a hasp be laminated in some fashion to eliminate the chance that a battery powered (sawzall) hacksaw can remove the lock?


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## Franko

As a former police, I'm sure you know that locks only keep honest people out. There aren't many civilian doors made that can't be opened with sledge hammer or crowbar. A fireman's ax is a pretty good universal key, too.

Sometimes a heavily locked door just signals that something valuable is inside.


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## Flammable_Solid

Put a piece of either hardened tool steel or a piece of 304 stainless steel inside your hasp.  One can't be cut with a hacksaw and the other will harden up quickly so it can't be cut much at all.  I did this for a customer that makes a locking mechanism for the kingpin for tractor trailers.  You can drill into the iron casting but you can't get through the piece of stainless cast into it before you make the stainless steel almost impenetrable.


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## RJSakowski

Case hardening is not that difficult to do and gives about as hard a surface as you can get on steel.  Because the core is malleable, it is immune to hammer and  chisel as well.
Since it is only a hasp and not a precision surface, you won't have to worry about surface finish.  Casenite or Cherry Red are commercial products and there are a multitude of home brew recipes.  Use an extended soak to maximize the case depth.
None of this precludes the use of an OA torch though.


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## Franko

Or a cordless grinder.


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## JimDawson

Or hooking a chain on it and pulling the whole door out of the wall.  The best you can do is just slow 'em down a bit and maybe make it difficult enough that the perps go elsewhere.  Nothing short of 24/7, armed security will stop a a really determined crook.


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## Franko

One good thing about machine tools. It takes a well-prepared and industrious thief to steal them.


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## tomh

John
Try one of these, better yet try breaching it.  Don't ask me how i know  ROLMAO
Tomh


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## sgisler

Love the air horn Gator!


Stan,
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Grumpy Gator

Do the doors open in or out ?
*G*


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## Grumpy Gator

Sgisler,
 That came about from one of those "Oh Yea" moments in my old shop.It was hooked up to the 80 gallon air tank behind the shop. So it will blow a long time.
***G***


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## sgisler

Hehe, if it doesn't stop them at least they'll have to pay with bleeding ears!


Stan,
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brino

grumpygator said:


> As insurance I hooked a big air horn to the shop compressor on a trip line that can't be turned off from inside of the shop.



If I did that I'd have to start wearing diapers out to my shop, because sure as anything I'd be the guy accidentally tripping it


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## Eddyde

As mentioned above, a cordless angle grinder with a cutoff disc will open just about anything short of a vault.


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## brav65

When I was a kid and worked at a golf course we had kids stealing golf carts to joy ride.  The old greens keeper fabricated a bolt for the shed with 3/4" steel tube then put a 1/2" hardened steel rod inside the tube.  He welded the ends closed and bolted it to the shed doors with some brackets. If the kids tried to cut through they would hit the hardened steel rod which would just rotate inside the pipe.  It stopped the golf cart theft.


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## Keith Foor

I tried to talk to a safe manufacture about a tool proof safe one time.  They loved my ideas but said it would be too heavy and expensive.  Anyway.  Think like a crook, with tools.  Think of the tools reasonably available.  A magnesium oxygen lance WILL cut about anything. So NOTHING is cut proof.  But as you back away from the extreme there are ways of dealing with about anything else.  First thing to deal with is force.  If the door AND the jam are built to repel forced attack pry pulling and prying.  This is done with proper fitment and a lack of something to pry or pull against.  If you have a gate that  you can get behind and put a chain around, you might as well put a hook ring on it for convenience.   Poor fitment with large gaps at the edges allowing a pry bar to enter the gap is a sure way of getting a door forced.  This is typical way of breaching a steel door.  The door simply folds at the latch point and pops open.  Standard door latching and locking mechanisms are poor for real security.  Thing about a vault door.  Now I am not saying you need 24 2 inch pins to secure a door, but it would be secure and the forces required to breach it are far greater than a bar will generate.  As far as cutting, an abrasive wheel will make quick work of ALL metals except carbide.  But have you ever tried to cut ceramic with one?  That needs a diamond wheel.  If you sandwich mild steel and ceramic, neither a torch or an abrasive wheel will cut the composite material.  Even a plasma cutter will have a rough time.  Remember that you are not going to make a 100% inaccessable structure.  It's all about time and noise.  Unless you are in the middle of no where and explosives could be used to open the door you can build an 8 hour door (time to force entry) without a huge effort.  Remember that the door is only as strong as the wall it's connected to.  If you are willing to get what some would call crazy, or you are building the structure from scratch you can put in a 24 X 24 inch reinforced concrete door way to hold the door.  Now bear in mind that doing this to a wooden barn that someone could buzz a hole in the wall with a chain saw 6 foot away is sort of counter productive.  
I have looked at the designs of numerous vaults and studied the way that they are built.  Even a bank vault can be breached.  Of course it requires a 48 inch concrete diamond coring saw and about 2 days of work, but that's how you open one when the door has a failure and can't be opened the normal way.


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## jpfabricator

There was a local legend in my home town that the bank hired to break into their vault. The door mechanism failed. They hired him with the stipulation he did not cut the door. 
Legend has it he contacted the safe door co. and they assured him it could be fixed from the inside.
He jack hammered a hole in the roof large enough for a vault door rep. to get into the vault. The story ends with the door being opened unscathed, and the man made a hefty paycheck to make the hole then repair the hole. 
Didnt mean to highjack your thread, just wandering down memory lane.

Sent from somewhere in East Texas Jake Parker


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## Franko

If I were a criminal and I saw a door that tough, I'd go through the wall.


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## juiceclone

signs plus hidden cameras watching other cameras watching entrances/property and a dedicated security dvr recording motion on any cam and triggering alarm/transmission to you leaves u with "what do I do with the bodies"  ;>|


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## Keith Foor

Build steel door.  Shoot Steel door with rifle several times.   Splash redish brown dried blood paint on door.  Sleep soundly


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## juiceclone

OHHHH     Like that


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## mike837go

As has been mentioned, you can stop the curious. But you can only slow down a determined thief.

Not making your place "interesting" would be a step in the right direction.

My barn/shop doors would give way to a chain saw in seconds. The fact that there are no places to hide, it is very visible from the house, less than 30' from the road and nothing expensive near it keeps the ill-intentioned at bay.


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## Firestopper

Solenoid controlled throw bolts on garage doors, alarm and four GSD keep our shop secure. If that fails, then double taps will follow.


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## jere m

Those locks have brass tumblers, that can be drilled out silently and quickly. Cordless drills are quiet and common, I would look for a lock that had hardened steel or something that would stop a drill from going right in if possible.


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## Keith Foor

As far as drilling the lock.  Easiest way to stop that is to shield the lock face with a plate.  If you use a hockey puck lock and put a blocking plate so that you can only have room to get the key in it and unlock it, that deals with the drilling.  Drilling the plate and putting a ceramic rod or two in it keeps it from being cut easily.  Abrasive wheels tend to go right through most metals, but ceramic stops them cold.  A solid carbide end mill could also be used and would have a similar effect.  Again, it's effort to slow them down... you can never stop then cold.... you can just require lots of time and lots of noise to gain access.  That gives time to be noticed, police to respond, and arrests to be made.  But bear in mind that if it's not heavy enough to take a hell of a beating with a sledge hammer attack and still work,,, you will be the one out there trying to figure out how to get it open.


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## MozamPete

For saw proof how about a pipe with a smaller diameter bar inside that can rotate freely - you can hacksaw through the outer pipe but when you hit the bar is just spins.


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## savarin

and then you loose the key


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## savarin

I would like to know why those who decide to live outside the rules of society and behave to the detriment of those society members are then allowed to bask in the protection those rules then give.
I've always thought there was something screwy there.


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## John Hasler

savarin said:


> I would like to know why those who decide to live outside the rules of society and behave to the detriment of those society members are then allowed to bask in the protection those rules then give.


Because we have no way to tell in advance who they are (and that includes those in charge of making and enforcing the rules).


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## FOMOGO

brino said:


> If I did that I'd have to start wearing diapers out to my shop, because sure as anything I'd be the guy accidentally tripping it


  Thanks, That one made my day. I'd probably be in the same boat/diaper. Mike


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## jere m

John Hasler said:


> Because we have no way to tell in advance who they are (and that includes those in charge of making and enforcing the rules).



interesting topic, our society does have ways ( psychology for one)and could let us punish criminals in a logical sense rather than with the sense of justice.  we could potentially pick out serial killers for example, before they kill anyone even as children. changing over to this system would open obviously a huge can of worms in many senses.


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## sgisler

jere m said:


> interesting topic, our society does have ways ( psychology for one)and could let us punish criminals in a logical sense rather than with the sense of justice.  we could potentially pick out serial killers for example, before they kill anyone even as children. changing over to this system would open obviously a huge can of worms in many senses.



Hmmm, sounds like a bad Tom Cruise movie....


Stan,
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jere m

sgisler said:


> Hmmm, sounds like a bad Tom Cruise movie....
> 
> 
> Stan,
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



what there are good Tom Cruise movies!?


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## sgisler

Lol, I was waiting for that!!


Stan,
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## savarin

John Hasler said:


> Because we have no way to tell in advance who they are (and that includes those in charge of making and enforcing the rules).


I wasnt thinking of telling in advance just when its irrefutable proof, ie, the goods are in their hands or they are looking round inside your house etc.
Some years ago I was in West Virginia and Australia had been having a large number of home invasions.
The guys at this gathering asked what they were and I explained.
I asked if they happened there and they all started laughing and said "not a chance, everyone knows every house here is armed and even if they did we all know someone with a backhoe".


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## tomh

Hi
Just do what my wife's coworkers do. 
They put up hidden cameras and post photos of the thief on Facebook, OMG its funny.  
People will post who they are and where they live. 
The comments will be like  *I know him/her* and post their name and address right on Facebook.  
*They cant lie their way out of that one.*


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## savarin

our local 7-11 does that, hangs all the security photos of everyone they've caught shoplifting on a huge panel by the door.
If they were charged they also add the fines etc.
Its a huge display.


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## Keith Foor

Honestly the issue with judging people prior to them committing crime is about as possible as illegalizing stupidity.  what one would consider stupid is anothers normal operating procedure.


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## Eddyde

jere m said:


> interesting topic, our society does have ways ( psychology for one)and could let us punish criminals in a logical sense rather than with the sense of justice.  we could potentially pick out serial killers for example, before they kill anyone even as children. changing over to this system would open obviously a huge can of worms in many senses.



Yep, a can of worms indeed. It's called Eugenics; improve the human population by weeding out the miscreants. It's been tied in various ways over the course of human history, most notably in Europe 1939-45.


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