# Metal Working Files...Which?



## EmilioG (Mar 26, 2017)

I have to file a small 1/2" diameter round O1 tool steel ball end after cutting in some flutes and before heat treating. It's a small groove cutter with three flutes. I need to hand file the relief angles, which will be quite small.  The lands will be only .020" wide.  I need small files I imagine.  I have many files, a lot of small Swiss files.  What type and size of files can I use for this project and filing harder steels in general?

I've been ready and studying the use and care of files, which is basic to all metal work and machining operations, so I'd like to learn as much as I can.  I'm still in grade school while most of you here have .Phd's.
All of your help is appreciated. Bob, Mikey, Will, et al...................................


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## mikey (Mar 26, 2017)

I only have a set of Grobet riffler files for this sort of thing but I've been thinking about this one if I have a project that justified them: https://www.pferdusa.com/products/201f/201f05P.html. 

I suspect common files like the Grobet files will cut un-hardened stuff. I do not know how they will work after you cut those flutes because there may be some work hardening. That's why I suggested you look at the Pferd set.


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## darkzero (Mar 26, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> All of your help is appreciated. Bob, Mikey, Will, et al.......



Sorry, Emilio, Mikey or Bob will probably give you some good input. The only PHD I have is "Probably Heavy in Debt".

I don't do much file work other than light deburring and I just recently completed my modest set of files which are Pferd. I'll probably do less deburring now by hand cause I also recently got me a "cheater machine", is what I call it anyway, a chamfering & deburring machine.


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

darkzero said:


> I'll probably do less deburring now by hand cause I also recently got me a "cheater machine", is what I call it anyway, a chamfering & deburring machine.



You have to know what I'm gonna' say, right? Where are the pics!!!

I stopped trying to die with the most toys, Will. You're just kicking my butt here.


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## darkzero (Mar 27, 2017)

Haha, the files or the machine? *I think that was a stupid question

EDIT: Yes it was, I didn't even see what you quoted! duh. Ok, BRB


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

Yeah, it kind of was ...


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## darkzero (Mar 27, 2017)

Well I was planning on posting a thread about it later after I play with it some more but here it is. I've been wanting to make one after seeing Stefan's unit as these things are crazy expensive but it was on sale & I couldn't resist. Probably too much cognac that day. I love this thing! 














And just so Emilio doesn't get mad for hijacking his thread. Here's a picture of some files to relate to the thread. Ok, well not really but it's all I got. Sorry Emilio.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 27, 2017)

I have never had any trouble filing O-1 in the soft condition, and have not really noticed work hardening with machining it.  My Simonds needle files are at least 30 years old, still going, so I must be doing something right.  I use them quite a bit.  My rifflers are Chinese, and are just about untouched, probably a good thing.  Just start filing, and then try to know when to stop.  That is the hard part.  Good filing on small work requires learned skills, very good light, and a comfortable work position.  And patience.  And music you enjoy.  And no deadlines.  And it is worth it!


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

Thanks Will. Not that I didn't believe you but I am not familiar with these machines and didn't know what they can do. Now I know and ... I'm resisting really hard. I assume you can change cutters and produce round edges as well? Finally, if you don't mind, what do these things cost?


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> I have never had any trouble filing O-1 in the soft condition, and have not really noticed work hardening with machining it.  My Simonds needle files are at least 30 years old, still going, so I must be doing something right.  I use them quite a bit.  My rifflers are Chinese, and are just about untouched, probably a good thing.  Just start filing, and then try to know when to stop.  That is the hard part.  Good filing on small work requires learned skills, very good light, and a comfortable work position.  And patience.  And music you enjoy.  And no deadlines.  And it is worth it!



Hey Bob, I would add good magnification to the list! Next time I do some fine file work I'm going to put on some of my Son's rap music and see if it speeds things up.


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## darkzero (Mar 27, 2017)

mikey said:


> Thanks Will. Not that I didn't believe you but I am not familiar with these machines and didn't know what they can do. Now I know and ... I'm resisting really hard. I assume you can change cutters and produce round edges as well? Finally, if you don't mind, what do these things cost?



Haha! I resisted for a while because of the price. I though there would be no way I would ever buy one. Like Stefan said in his video, I have no idea why these things cost so much, I see them for well over $1K for the same style machine. There are other styles as well & even bigger.

I never thought about rounded corners, that would be very cool but not sure how to do it as you would need different cutters (or ground inserts in my case) for different size radii. It would be kind of hard to do on this machine but I still have to open it up & take a look (I'll post pics whenever I post a thread on it). It's uses like a shell mill that cuts on the side. The one I have uses SPU inserts which has 4 sides per so insert changes shouldn't be very often, not for me anyway. Plus the inserts are cheap. Palmgren makes em too but they use a stone instead of a cutter. Perhaps on those you can dress the stone for a radius but I felt like a cutter would be much better than a grinding stone.

I got mine from KBC tools. Normal price is $790. It was on sale for like $513 or something like that. Called the KBC in my area to verify they had one in stock, drove down & picked it up, 1hr each way. Some are made in China, some are made in Taiwan. Mine is made in Taiwan & it shows. Looks very well built, even down to the paint, motor runs very quiet & smooth. You can adjust depth for how much you want chamfered & you can also adjust the angle.

Here's the video by Stefan that got me interested in a chamfering machine (Can you tell I watch a lot of his videos?).


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## Tony Wells (Mar 27, 2017)

Simco used to market a machine like that called a Bur-Beaver, but Harig bought it out and now sells it. I've used one enough to go through a dozen cutters, and they are worth every cent in a commercial shop.


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

Hmm, not as expensive as I expected but still bank for me. The tool in the video does look very nice and simple to make, too. Thanks for pointing to it, Will. Maybe one day, I'll make one. Never knew these things existed!


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## darkzero (Mar 27, 2017)

mikey said:


> Hmm, not as expensive as I expected but still bank for me. The tool in the video does look very nice and simple to make, too. Thanks for pointing to it, Will. Maybe one day, I'll make one. Never knew these things existed!



No problemo Mike. Yup same here, I never knew either. Sure beats sitting there with a file or having to mill chamfers. I used to spend time to mill chamfers, this thing will save so much time & does a nice job.

There's a guy on ebay that sells another design using a dumore grinder. He sells it without the grinder also. Not saying to copy him but to give you some more ideas if making one.   I was going to make one too, probably would have taken me a year though, but then this happened.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Davis-Bevel...371903?hash=item56947c753f:g:m7MAAOSwDKtY1GG6


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

Cool, thanks, Will. I really have to think about making one of these things. I have the router motor already and just need to sort out the design.

Emilio, my apologies for participating in/instigating this tangent. Back to files now ...


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## EmilioG (Mar 27, 2017)

No, this is great.  Will, the fact that you have all these new tools and machines actually makes me feel better about my tool obsession.  What about a corner rounding machine?  I see a 5 axis cnc machine in your future.   Thanks. That KBC tool is awesome. Nice finish.
I thought I was bad.  Thanks to all.  Grobet has a file set for harder steels called Inox.  The Grobet Inox files look good and not too expensive.
Contenti has them now.  Some file work requires a light touch with the right file, like small cutter flutes or a tight V space.  This is for my FingerPlate.
I have 3 in the works.  Even the cutter.  It's to make the groove for holding, like the grooves on a Mitutoyo height gage, sort of.  Thanks Tony. Cool video.  Thanks Guys.
Bob, Mikey, Will.  .............


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

I meant to suggest you use some railroad chalk on your files to prevent/reduce the buildup of chips in the teeth. These files have very fine, sharp and shallow teeth that can plug up really fast. Using a wire brush to clear the teeth can dull them so its better to use the stiff bristle side of your file card. Using chalk helps reduce the chip build up so cleanup works better without dulling the teeth. My Grobet files will take a continuous cut with very fine control when all the right conditions are met - see @Bob Korves  post above; rap is optional - and I have done so for well over 15 years with the same set. I always use chalk in them and if you look at them you can't even tell they're used.


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## EmilioG (Mar 27, 2017)

Thanks Mikey. What is railroad chalk?


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

It's just a 1" rod of chalk. Cheap but works good. One box will last you several lifetimes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARKAL-RAIL...450702?hash=item418c2a358e:g:pnoAAOSwAL9Uhgbu


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## David S (Mar 27, 2017)

Around these parts "chalk" is not all that popular, so I have been using "welders chalk sticks".  They are about 5" long and have a rectangular cross section.

Any comments on whether this stuff works as well as railroad chalk?

David


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## mikey (Mar 27, 2017)

David S said:


> Around these parts "chalk" is not all that popular, so I have been using "welders chalk sticks".  They are about 5" long and have a rectangular cross section.
> 
> Any comments on whether this stuff works as well as railroad chalk?
> 
> David



Dave, I thought that welder's chalk was soapstone and not chalk (calcium carbonate). I may be wrong but I don't think they're the same. Chalk is made from ground up limestone mixed with clay and colorant and its dirt cheap. As for how well it works, I'll leave that to those who actually know what they're talking about.


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## David S (Mar 27, 2017)

mikey said:


> Dave, I thought that welder's chalk was soapstone and not chalk (calcium carbonate). I may be wrong but I don't think they're the same. Chalk is made from ground up limestone mixed with clay and colorant and its dirt cheap. As for how well it works, I'll leave that to those who actually know what they're talking about.



Yes I understand that it is soapstone as well.  Just curious regarding the effectiveness difference...if anyone knows.

I do a lot of filing of aluminum, so I have special aluminum specific files that avoid pinning without chalk.

David


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## darkzero (Mar 27, 2017)

Around here we have 99 cents stores. Yrs ago I bought a pack of sidewalk chalk the kind that kids use. Works for me. They're really fat in diameter, will probably last me a lifetime.


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## 4GSR (Mar 27, 2017)

darkzero said:


> Around here we have 99 cents stores. Yrs ago I bought a pack of sidewalk chalk the kind that kids use. Works for me. They're really fat in diameter, will probably last me a lifetime.


Yeah, you don't have to buy a boat load of it neither!


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## Tony Wells (Mar 28, 2017)

Soapstone works pretty well. That's what I use if it's handier than the chalk. I can't say I've ever tried it on jewelers files, so can't comment on any comparison in that application, but for general shop filing soapstone seems to work equally well.


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## EmilioG (Mar 28, 2017)

The RR chalk on Amazon is $50/box.  I like that the pieces are very big.  I'll use my blackboard chalk until I find a smaller package of RR chalk.
The kid stuff seems very soft to me, kind of waxy. I just want to preserve my expensive and vintage Nicholson USA files as long as possible.
The USA vintage Nicholson files are expensive, especially the Brass flat files.  I'm making my own Emory stick files for Brass. ClickSpring has a video
on how to make them cheap.


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## mikey (Mar 28, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> The RR chalk on Amazon is $50/box.  I like that the pieces are very big.  I'll use my blackboard chalk until I find a smaller package of RR chalk.
> The kid stuff seems very soft to me, kind of waxy. I just want to preserve my expensive and vintage Nicholson USA files as long as possible.
> The USA vintage Nicholson files are expensive, especially the Brass flat files.  I'm making my own Emory stick files for Brass. ClickSpring has a video
> on how to make them cheap.



See the link I posted on ebay - 20 bucks for several lifetime supplies for several people.


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## EmilioG (Mar 28, 2017)

mikey said:


> It's just a 1" rod of chalk. Cheap but works good. One box will last you several lifetimes.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARKAL-RAIL...450702?hash=item418c2a358e:g:pnoAAOSwAL9Uhgbu



Thanks, but the ebay seller in your link wants $19.00 friggin dollars for shipping! What are they using, a private courier service? I found a better deal on Zoro.com, $20 and free shipping on orders over $50.


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## Rustrp (Apr 1, 2017)

David S said:


> Yes I understand that it is soapstone as well.  Just curious regarding the effectiveness difference...if anyone knows.
> 
> I do a lot of filing of aluminum, so I have special aluminum specific files that avoid pinning without chalk.
> 
> David


Soapstone is magnesium/talc created with heat and pressure, and chalk is limestone, a sediment rock. Soapstone would work but if your buying choose the chalk, it's less expensive and works better.


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## Rustrp (Apr 1, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> The RR chalk on Amazon is $50/box.  I like that the pieces are very big.  I'll use my blackboard chalk until I find a smaller package of RR chalk.
> The kid stuff seems very soft to me, kind of waxy. I just want to preserve my expensive and vintage Nicholson USA files as long as possible.
> The USA vintage Nicholson files are expensive, especially the Brass flat files.  I'm making my own Emory stick files for Brass. ClickSpring has a video
> on how to make them cheap.


You can always sharpen them when they get dull or chipped. Edit;Actually there's not much you can do with a chip.


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## fitterman1 (Apr 1, 2017)

How about a dremel type tool? Lots of stones, carbide bits, slitting discs, sanding drums and who knows what other bits and pieces to fit them.
I'd like a better idea of what your filing. If your planning on machining a concave depression just get the appropriate radius ballnose endmill.
If you must generate your own cutter for experiences sake, make sure you don't go too thin on the lands or your cutting edge will be unsupported and break down under load. A 2 degree angle with a land width of 30-40 thou will give you a secondary angle and after hardening stone the primary. This pic is of an square endmill but you can still apply it to a ballnose.


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## ACHiPo (Apr 2, 2017)

I've been wondering about this as well.  I've heard nothing but bad things about modern Nicholson files.  Does Grobet still make good files?  Other brands?  While we're on the topic, can someone point me to educational material on the different file types and when to use which file?

I've got a bunch of very high quality vintage Swiss jewelry and watch/clock files.  I've also got a bunch of old files that I have no idea whether they're still good or need sharpening (how do I tell?).


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## Bob Korves (Apr 2, 2017)

The first Nicholson Mexican factory files were awful.  Since then they have improved considerably, and are now worth buying.  I am good with their current products.


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## sanddan (Apr 2, 2017)

mikey said:


> See the link I posted on ebay - 20 bucks for several lifetime supplies for several people.



It was also $43 in shipping!

Too bad they don't sell in smaller quantities.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 2, 2017)

ACHiPo said:


> (snip)I've also got a bunch of old files that I have no idea whether they're still good or need sharpening (how do I tell?).


Try them and see how they work!


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## mikey (Apr 2, 2017)

I prefer Grobet and Pferd. Just wanted to say that Grobet USA outsources to China. Grobet from Europe is made in Switzerland the last time I checked. Pferd is still made in Germany. Both European brands make excellent files. 

My lathe files are from Nicholson and are still made in the US. They are excellent files and I think I bought these on Amazon. If you haven't used a lathe file before, try them. Mine are single cut fine files that shave off metal, whether it is turning on the lathe or not.


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## Rustrp (Apr 2, 2017)

ACHiPo said:


> I've been wondering about this as well. I've heard nothing but bad things about modern Nicholson files. Does Grobet still make good files? Other brands? While we're on the topic, can someone point me to educational material on the different file types and when to use which file?


http://www.nicholsontool.com/MagentoShare/media/documents/nicholson-guide-to-filing-2014.pdf 

Just one of many available. Simmons also has some good material and product. Quality control is an issue, wherever goods are manufactured, and I think the missing link today is someone actually knowing what's missing. If you've never been exposed there's no way to know what is missing. I don't think we should be so naive to think all of yesteryear produced only quality products. The rule of thumb applied to fruits and vegetables; If it tastes good the farmer grew it, and if it doesn't the banker grew it,,,,,, also applies to the quality of other products.


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## ddickey (Apr 2, 2017)

You can find NOS US made Nicholsons on ebay.
Also Bahco files can be had for a good price good quality too.


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## ACHiPo (Apr 2, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Try them and see how they work!


Bob,
I'm not sure I'd know a good, sharp file from a crappy one.  Thus the request for training information on files.

Evan


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## mikey (Apr 2, 2017)

You might find this useful: http://www.nicholsontool.com/MagentoShare/media/documents/nicholson-guide-to-filing-2014.pdf


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## ACHiPo (Apr 2, 2017)

mikey said:


> You might find this useful: http://www.nicholsontool.com/MagentoShare/media/documents/nicholson-guide-to-filing-2014.pdf


Mike,
This looks great.  Thanks!
Evan


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## fitterman1 (Apr 2, 2017)

If you see shiny edges to the teeth you know its dull. Actually if you see reflected light from any cutting edge its dull.
Also I grip the file between thumb and forefinger and slide them down the file itself, by doing this you will notice how sharp the cutting edges feel, and where is the most worn part of the file.
To sharpen it up, try forcing it to rust by leaving it outside in the weather getting wet for a week or so.
You can also try an acid bath, carefully, although I've never done this.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 3, 2017)

I have a few well worn, but never abused, high quality files that are still my go to files for finishing stuff I care about.  They might be considered dull, but they leave a very nice finish.  A lot of new files, even quality ones, leave a pretty crappy finish until they get broken in.


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## fitterman1 (Apr 3, 2017)

Bob makes a very valid point regarding file breakin, and the last bit of the file down near the tang seems to be a zone where not so much filing happens and lasts a lot longer.
I use this part a lot for draw filing.


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## Rustrp (Apr 3, 2017)

fitterman1 said:


> Bob makes a very valid point regarding file breakin, and the last bit of the file down near the tang seems to be a zone where not so much filing happens and lasts a lot longer.
> I use this part a lot for draw filing.


Yes, drawing puts that section to good use.


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