# warping



## Flyrod (Jul 26, 2017)

Hi Guys - I am pretty new to welding

i wish to make a 5"x 5"x 26" long column as part of a pedestal stand for a belt sander - material is 1/4" flat stock, mild steel (HR)

i assume that on the first two welds, they should be on the inside, correct?

if I make multiple tacks, is there an issue then going down the rest of the seam where the material will distort from the heat build up?

once the fourth side is on, i have no choice but to weld on the outside...so i guess 2 seams will look a little different than the other two...just grind to try to make it not noticeable? (i am planning to overlap the pieces - so 2 pieces 4.5 and 2 pieces 5)

thanks


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## Flyrod (Jul 26, 2017)

i suppose another way to go (to not have to rip a 1/2" off of two 26" lengths of 5" flat stock is to abut all the inner edges and weld all four seams on the outside?

same question there as to warping

that also avoids 2 seams looking different


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## woodchucker (Jul 26, 2017)

Not sure why you need to weld the inside. If the weld is clean and proper, then welding the outside will be enough.
Tack the corners one, then the opposite corner and it should pull it back to straight if done quickly before the first tack cools.


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## Groundhog (Jul 26, 2017)

I think this is what Flyrod is suggesting, and how I would do it. Weld on the outsides of all 4 joints, staggering short welds to avoid getting the metal hot enough to warp. The bead should be about 1/4" so the finished product will be a nicely corner rounded part.
If the pieces are 5" wide x 1/2" thick this would end up as a 51/2" square column. Start with 41/2"x1/4" to get a 5" square column.


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## Flyrod (Jul 26, 2017)

Thanks guys

I agree it should all be done in the outside that's clear now

In terms of progressing should I do two pieces to Corners than the other two pieces both Corners in order to get the whole thing together before welding on it or is it better to weld two sides all the way and then Mount the other two sides all the way

I think I know the answer but the stupidest question is the one left unasked

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## Flyrod (Jul 26, 2017)

And groundhog yes that's what I was looking for the idea of doing these short welds to not warp thanks for confirming 









When you talk about alternating do you mean seam to seam or just different spots on the same seam until one seam is entirely complete

Thanks

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## Groundhog (Jul 26, 2017)

I would tack all 4 sides (maybe a good tack every 4" or so), then make short beads (1" to 2") and stagger them from side to side and end to end. Try to visualize how the heat from one short bead will make the metal bend (it will shrink when it cools) then make the next weld in a position to offset that shrinkage. But most importantly try to keep from getting the metal too hot. Cool it down (wet rags work or just blowing with compressed air) or allow cooling time between beads.
Also, depending on your desired outcome you might want to think about "stitch" welds. Have a finished part with a 2" weld (or some measured distance), leave a 2" gap, another 2" weld and so on.
A very good site for welding instruction and videos is Jody's site; http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/.


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## francist (Jul 26, 2017)

My apologies if I'm missing something, but why not just buy a short length of square column to begin with rather than welding one from scratch?

-frank


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## Flyrod (Jul 26, 2017)

26" of 5" sq 1/4 tube costs about 2 times as much as 104" of 5" flat stock

the flat stock (5" x 1/4" x 10' piece) cost $34


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## Flyrod (Jul 26, 2017)

Groundhog said:


> I would tack all 4 sides (maybe a good tack every 4" or so), then make short beads (1" to 2") and stagger them from side to side and end to end. Try to visualize how the heat from one short bead will make the metal bend (it will shrink when it cools) then make the next weld in a position to offset that shrinkage. But most importantly try to keep from getting the metal too hot. Cool it down (wet rags work or just blowing with compressed air) or allow cooling time between beads.
> Also, depending on your desired outcome you might want to think about "stitch" welds. Have a finished part with a 2" weld (or some measured distance), leave a 2" gap, another 2" weld and so on.
> A very good site for welding instruction and videos is Jody's site; http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/.



thanks Mike

last question - would you tack all four corners first? - or would you put a few tacks on one seam then another and so on until all four sides are tacked?

thanks

PS - i am subscribed to Jody's channel and searched "make a square tube out of flat stock" across youtube - nothing useful came up - there were a ton of videos on how to weld with square tube but not how to make a square tube


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## Groundhog (Jul 26, 2017)

I don't think it really matters. For ease I think I would anchor 2 pieces as firmly and accurately as you can. Clamping to a couple of pieces of angle iron is not a bad idea. The tacks should be real short - about 1/4" and as such shouldn't do much of any warping. After getting 2 pieces tacked together tack the 3rd then the 4th in place. Just seems a lot easier to hold 2 parts in position than 4!!
After you release the clamps you can tap, bend, force or whatever the metal into straightness before welding. Keeping the project firmly clamped wherever you can when welding will help a lot too.
One last thought. When positioning for welding set things up in the easiest and most comfortable positions as you can. If you watch Jody's videos, he always makes dry runs so he knows he will not be putting himself in awkward positions.
You'll do fine. If it comes out really warped you can always support the ends on 2x4s and drive over the high side with your car!!! (I've done that and worse).


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## Silverbullet (Jul 26, 2017)

I would get two sides fitted and clamped but use a few short tacks . Then I'd do the other half . After there tacked up I'd clamp those together and tack the two sides with short tacks turn over make a few more tacks till you only have to fill in , but keep it even all around by not getting anyone area glowing hot. By not producing super hot spots to the opposite cold areas keep the heat from getting to cool insights the pulling affects of heat in one area. 
Even then things at times will have some warping if it's small mill it square.


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## Flyrod (Jul 26, 2017)

thanks guys!!


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## whitmore (Jul 26, 2017)

Flyrod said:


> Hi Guys - I am pretty new to welding
> 
> i wish to make a 5"x 5"x 26" long column as part of a pedestal stand for a belt sander - material is 1/4" flat stock, mild steel (HR)



Yow!  That's gonna use a lot of steel.   5" square, 1/4 thick, means 17 lbs/foot?   I'd downscale
to a T section, 4" by 4", or just an ell.   No belt sander I'm familiar with would make that
buckle...


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## Groundhog (Jul 26, 2017)

There are a lot of ways to make it less expensive. I agree that these dimensions are overkill as far as strength and support go. My suggestions are only about how to weld it using your parameters without distortion. It would be good welding experience if you have the materials (for free or cheap).
For example, I made a stand for a 1hp 6" bench grinder using 3" square 0.120 wall steel tubing, and that is stronger than it needs to be. That would be about $30 mail order and weigh around 15 lbs total.


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## Flyrod (Jul 26, 2017)

WH - where were you this morning?? - everything purchased - i followed the design of the oem pedestal, who was kind enough to give me the measurements

here is a picture




my base will just be a flate plate (same 1/4") on leveling casters

at the top it is just the plate on the column...no fancy apron (is that what you call it?) like they have like a Greek column

i'll copy this tray to the side (that is the same belt sander i have, but mine is about 20 years older! - still looks identical - still made in the us of a - make is Burr King)




here is the material list as purchased - i am curious how this compares to steel prices in other parts of the country?

View attachment 238406
View attachment 238406


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## tq60 (Jul 27, 2017)

If 1/4 thick clamp with inside edges touching making an open square on the outside to allow place for weld.

Clamp against angle iron to position for welding and if you have enough clamps clamp all 4 together just to confirm fit.

Tack one corner at one end then tear down to just the two parts and carefully clamp along angle iron with deep reach clamps and be sure edges touch all the way and as you tack them and these beads need to be short.

If MIG higher than normal feed and amps to insure fast and deep weld as you want the heat to dissipate fast.

Repeat for each panel so the shape will be good before you tack next panel and let it cool a bit between welds.

For finish welding maybe having it partially submerged in a bucket of water to keep it cool and again short weld long wait.

Does not need full length and bonds is your friend .


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## Flyrod (Jul 27, 2017)

thanks tq60


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## Flyrod (Jul 28, 2017)

ok - so far so good - i have two right angles 

is there a tip or trick to clamping those 2 together to do the final two seams? - every time i try and tighten up, the pieces overlap - that is, i try to line up the 2 seams so the inner edges are touching to then weld in the gap on the outside - when i apply clamping pressure it wants to slide a little so that one edge overlaps the other

is there a trick here that i am missing

as an alternate path, i used some 90 degree magnets but nothing is quite straight at the moment and so i end up with gaps...push to close one, it opens up somewhere else

this seems basic...kind of embarrassed to even have to ask


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## Firestopper (Jul 29, 2017)

Just tack the inside of the right angle in (minimal tacks) with only the corners touching. A spacer the same thickness of the material is handy for this. A quick square  or 90º magnets will also help. Do this twice creating two halves. Clamp the two halves together using C-clamps over a piece of wood or tubing (inside demential spacers) with the same inside corners touching. Tack the four sides (end of each section, center, then the the center of that section again for  five tacks per corner joint).  If your Mig welding you could either weld in the horizontal position or vertical down (faster less heat). Weld 2-4" on one side, rotate 180º and weld opposite end keeping the heat zone to a minimum.  I been back welding/tacking for many years and it becomes standard when building. Most of the time you can control the direction of pull by using this technique. Read this or search for another article on the subject.http://www.twi-global.com/technical...rol-prevention-by-fabrication-techniques-036/. By bringing the corners together avoiding overlap, you will yield good penetration and have plenty of weld material to grind either round or square making the column look as one. You are going about this the long way, but there is some learning to be had that will help you on another project requiring a corner weld that gets profiled without compromising the weld joint. 
Welding will always cause some distortion. Its all about controlling the direction and amount of distortion.  

Example:
This fuel tank was welded using a corner  joint weld and back step welding. The tool box bottom was cut out and the slip fit was very good. The corners where ground to a slight radius and held pressure on the first attempt. You should have a penetration bead along the entire inside of a corner joint. Many time you will have a "key hole" just ahead of the weld puddle if your speed/heat is right. Notice the water level is about two inches from weld joint to also aid in distortion control. 



Like I mentioned, back stepping is a good technique to learn and will save you time in the long run.
Turn and burn!
Paco


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## Flyrod (Jul 29, 2017)

wow...Paco - thank you very much! - and your work is beautiful

1. two create the two halves, I used magnets - so similar to what you are suggesting - I started at the corners (but on the outsides) - my weld's suck...they are globs, then too little and lots of porosity...working on it

2. the struggle was getting the 2 halves together - i wished i had thought of (or known about)  inside dimensional spacers - then i could have clamped and life would have been easier - this is what i ended up doing - first, i noticed that my two halves did warp - they kind of pulled into the center and raised each corner a little - i used magnets to line up just one corner of the 4 - the other were all out of whack, but I ignored that - the one that was lined up was lined up correctly and i put a tack there - from there, I was able to use cross clamps on the corner and tack the seam - i used clamps for the two corners of the other seam

now back on to the internet to figure out why i've got all this porosity

thanks again!


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## Firestopper (Jul 29, 2017)

What machine and gas are you running? Did you leave the mill scale on the weld joints?
Post up some pictures of the set up, plenty of folks here might have an answer plus it might help the next guy later.


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## Flyrod (Jul 29, 2017)

Prep:

i ground off all mill scale on the joints and the inch or 2 going down from each joint

i cleaned the material with mineral spirits to get off any dust, grease, etc.

Equipment:

it is a millermatic 211, running on 230v

.030 steel fire

C25 gas mixture

i am running it on "auto" with material thickness at 1/4" (is that correct? - or do i need to add both pieces?) and .030 wire and it picks the speed and heat

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I just came back in from grinding off all the bad tacks, so no photos

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looking on the internet, apart from a clean weld joint, it seems that gas is the next most important thing

oddly, unless i am missing it, my label does not show gas pressure for each setting on the chart as can be seen here

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i had been running the gas at 20 (psi? cfm?) and then bumped it up to 25...probably made it worse


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## Flyrod (Jul 29, 2017)

here are some pictures of the ground tacks - the bubbling not only was in the entire tack, but also shot through into good metal

here are pictures of one of the already complete seems - there were just a couple of porous spots so i left them - as has been pointed out, this project in 1/4" is way over kill for the 75 pound belt sander that will sit on it...

thanks


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## Firestopper (Jul 29, 2017)

Unable to see your weld chart after zooming in, but, .030 wire is a little on the small side for 1/4" material. Your gas (C25) is fine with regular set to 20 cfm . I don't use mineral spirit for cleaning/ prep as it leaves residue. I suggest laqure thinner for cleaning just mind your rags as it's flammable the stuff evaporates without residue.  Your  welding chart setting are recommendations for the thickness your welding (not combined thickness). Do you have any evidence of penetration on the inside/ underside of weld joint?


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## tq60 (Jul 29, 2017)

You are filling a puddle so pen et ration not as important as good flow.

Just hit the metal with a wire wheel in a die grinder and it will be fine.

No familiar with your machine but look up 1/4 material and set it to that and avoid auto anything.

Experiment with lower settings since you are top welding a puddle and not needing pen et ration like a t weld would be.

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## Flyrod (Jul 29, 2017)

thanks guys...problem solved 

went back and re-read the manual...at some point i read "for indoor use...do not use where windy" - well a light bulb went off b/c with 105 heat indexes and 100% humidity for four months of the year, i set a whomping big fan right next to me - sure enough, turned it off, weld's came out beautifully

Paco - I get slight penetration on the underside (inside) of the joint...but only here and there and very little

TQ - if problem hadn't resolved itself using manual settings would have been the next step 

I'll post some pictures in the morning - odd situation, hopefully it might be a clue to others to check if this ever happens to them

thanks!


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## Old junk (Jul 29, 2017)

Glad u figured it out wind will blow shielding gas away from molten metal,makes for bad welds.


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## Flyrod (Jul 31, 2017)

here are some of the welds....


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## Flyrod (Aug 17, 2017)

thanks again guys...finished product (first welding project)


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## Old junk (Aug 17, 2017)

Looks good!


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