# Bench mill for profit or VMC?



## jhov (Jun 6, 2020)

I'm currently considering buying a mill, initially for hobby development and prototyping but eventually I'd like to start a business with it. I'm comparing cost/benefit of a new 2 hp table top mill converted to CNC with a used late 90's era Haas VMC. I'm leaning toward an old VMC, but I figured there are people here who use small mills to make money so I'd like to learn from your experience. How did you get started? Do you find it difficult to find work for a small mill? Do you feel that a VMC would open any doors for you if you had one?


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## Chipper5783 (Jun 7, 2020)

You have come to the right place - you'll get plenty of opinions!  Get the old VMC.  Good luck making any money.  I believe you need an idea, a vision of what it is you are going to make.  The actual making chips is almost a commodity (very, very competitive).

I have two manual mills (and a 3rd that I got just for more tooling and if I every need any parts - or perhaps a future project), they are quite different - thus serve different roles.  They are both in good condition, well tooled, very reputable machines - and would have been expensive (back in the day).  I am very comfortable with the manual mills and I don't feel there is anything with in the capability of the machines that I wouldn't attempt.

I have a 21 year old industrial VMC (I've had it running about 6 months).  I'm still a total rookie.  I'm strictly a G-code guy (I have not sorted out the whole solid modelling and post processing).  For me, and the sort of tasks I've been working on - the CNC capability is a game changer.  I'm running the CNC like a manual machine, except instead of cranking the handle, I send a line of G-code.  Except many  operations are much easier (arcs, spirals and repeated offsets).  I now rarely use the manual machines.

Converting a small manual mill to CNC?  I have not done that, I've never used such a machine, I can not say whether it is bad / good.  I have no doubt that one would learn a tremendous amount in going through the process of completing the conversion to the CNC.  If your interest is "prototyping" and starting a small business - do not front end load it with a major project of converting a manual mill to CNC.

One thing I can say, is that a purpose built, industrial machine is wicked capable - even an old machine.  My experience is limited to just this one example, but having the automatic tool changer, the flood coolant (and enclosure), a 50x speed range, 4th axis, full guards, auto lube, air padded spindle, chip conveyor - are not features I've seen on any/few of the the CNC conversions presented.  Certainly all of the features would be possible on a converted machine - but I present the idea that overall the cost will be less to purchase a machine that was originally built with the features that you feel you need.  The old machine will likely need some repair and servicing (depending on how much you are prepared to pay) - but at least you are starting with something that is capable and you just need to restore that ability.

My VMC1000 cost $6000CAD, it still ran (sort of) and came with 40 spindle tools.  The move cost me $2500 (some of the best money I've ever spent) and this machine triggered an upgrade to my shop power, something I'd wanted to do for a few years (another $8000 and all the machines appreciate it - so the VMC does not have to bear the entire power upgrade cost).  I spent about another $1000 to get it running well.  I am now solidly trapped in the black hole of tooling - because there is always another tool to buy.  However, I have what I need to run - and prior to the VMC I had a well equipped shop, so I've avoided spend that you may be facing, because I already had tooling from the other machines that run fine on the VMC (end mills, taps, drills, vices, hold downs, table chucks, . . . . ).  I look at the all in cost being about $13000 CAD.

Making money?  Simply selling mill time will be extremely challenging.  If you have a special niche or idea - that you can make money with (and the mill might be the means to get you there, but it is the idea that sets you apart).  You said a "small mill" -* what is a small mill?*  I just putter around with pretty small work pieces.  My VMC has 1000mm of X-travel, weight 8000# and is a little larger than our Toyota mini-van.  In my short time with the machine I have needed the full travel of the machine on a number of projects.  This is a very useful size machine and definitely *not* a big machine.  Finding work for a small mill (say 20" of X-travel) will be even harder.  Remember, the work envelop gets eaten up real fast.

I assume you already have a shop: lathe(s), welding, drills/grinders/saws?  If not, then your business vision just got a lot smaller - a mill is super capable, but there is a lot it does not do.

Another consideration is the craftsmanship associated with machining.  To get good, and fast is a lengthy process.  If you lack either of these - you will not be in business for long.

Yes, I feel the addition of the VMC has opened some doors for me - *very* slightly.  What I've found is that nobody will pay for a person to stand at a machine (whether an employee or for a business).  The VMC has got me a little bit of work (even though I did one job was done on a manual lathe), and several expressions of interest (perhaps may come to something?).

How did I get started?  About 40 years ago, because I thought making stuff was just so cool.  I have 10 machines now, I still love fixing things and making stuff.  I'm in this hobby because I like it.  I get to have fun and help people.  Occasionally I recover some of my tooling cost.  This certainly is not a money making venture.

Let us know how you make out.  David


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## Aukai (Jun 7, 2020)

I like your write up David


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## Dhal22 (Jun 7, 2020)

Aukai said:


> I like your write up David



It's a superb write up.   I agree.


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## Janderso (Jun 7, 2020)

Watching an older Tom Lipton video, he received an MT3 to Jacobs taper from Sharks for $12.
His comment was, if you are thinking of going into business for yourself, make something truly unique for a niche market. You will never compete with the 3rd world production. I’m paraphrasing but you get the idea.
The little experience I have with manual machines, it’s clear to me how automation is crucial to production.
Thinking of the old machinists working rows of lathes and mills conjure up a staggering payroll expense.
Oh how the world has changed.


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## C-Bag (Jun 7, 2020)

Another big thumbs up to David and to Janderso. It’s hard to not sound negative but being realistic always has that side to it. The OP like David points out doesn’t say what kind of shop and experience he brings to the table so it’s hard to gauge the whole thing. But like Janderso kinda points out, there are a bunch of REALLY talented machinists on YouTube and they are making $$ through YouTube by making vids, not making products. The exception would be Jon @ NYCNC I think. He is a great one to go back and see how he started in an apartment in NY and has grown. And he learned everything off of YouTube not having gone to school for it. His talent with the CAD end of it is crazy and that I believe is critical if you are going to CNC as it’s a chicken or the egg kinda thing. And his focus is a job shop, not a hobby.

Everybody wants to have a home biz but the key points that have worked for me is having my product idea up front and not digging myself in huge $$$ hole and expanding as needed to keep up with production. YMMV.


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## JimDawson (Jun 7, 2020)

I have had machine tools for the last 50 years.  Started with bench top machines and worked my way up to modern industrial CNC equipment as needed.  The original plan was for prototyping of some projects I was working on.  But as machining opportunities presented themselves I took on some outside work.  This allowed me to expand my capabilities by putting all of the profit back into equipment.  I have never borrowed money to buy equipment.

I have machine tools to support other activities, I do not actively solicit general machine work.  That market is much too competitive to really make any money unless you are set up to do high volume production.  Up until the last 3 years or so, my machines were there to support my machine design and fabrication activities.  Today we manufacture a product and this necessitated adding to the stable of equipment.  We just couldn't keep up with the equipment we had.  

For prototyping and tool & die work I like my manual/CNC knee mill and manual lathe.  When I bought my CNC knee mill it vastly expanded my capabilities, a huge step up from a manual mill.  But for any serious production work, the CNC lathe and Haas VMC are the weapons of choice. 

Buying a bench top machine, a BP size knee mill, or a VMC is a choice you have to make based on your goals.  Each machine has its use and they are not really interchangeable.  The size of the machine needs to be based on your required work envelope, space available, and power availability.  If I could have only one mill in the shop, it would absolutely be a manual/CNC machine.  There are a few of these available on the market.

Under no condition would I buy a manual machine with the plan of converting it to a CNC, too much work.  Let someone else do the hard work and engineering.  Not to mention the cost of buying quality mechanical hardware.  Of course it's possible to buy cheap ballscrews and other hardware, but the result is a marginal hobby class machine.  There are many CNC machines out there with dead controls that are just fine mechanically.  Today replacing the controls is the easy and cheap part, there are many quality options available.


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## Aukai (Jun 7, 2020)

I'm not sure where Titan of CNC is now, he was on TV, and online with free courses. I did see one episode where he landed a huge contract, expanded his operation, and then was told "sorry, our funding was cut off". That would be a consideration to watch for also.


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## jhov (Jun 7, 2020)

My goal for the machine is very similar to JimDawson's; I have a few design ideas I'd like to prototype. It'd be great if those ideas turned into a business opportunity, but in case they do not I was hoping that the machine might be able to provide some return on investment for general machining. It'd be a shame for such a large and expensive machine to be relegated to hobbyist duty. It sounds like this is not the case so I guess my designs better be successful or I should consider a hobby mill. Thanks everyone for all the replies.


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## RJSakowski (Jun 7, 2020)

I would suggest viewing John Saunders, NYC CNC videos.  He started with a hobby mill and built a highly successful machining business in ten years time.  

Local to me, an individual built a machining business with 50% annual growth, starting out with an old Bridgeport and a lathe.  He did so by taking on small jobs the the established job shops would touch, concentrating on customer satisfaction rather than profitability.  This led him to build a loyal client base and they came back to him with the bigger jobs that enabled him to grow the business.

As to the choice of machines, a lot depends on the budget, the condition of the machine, and the intended work.  While a CNC mill can greatly speed up production there is a trade-off with setup time.  If you're dealing with one-off parts, the time it takes to create a model and G code can exceed the time needed to manually machine the part.   The CNC will permit machining protocols which aren't possible otherwise but this is usually not the case.

I would stay away from the CNC conversion, all other things being equal.  If looking at the Haas VMC, however, consider the cost of any repairs.  A single repair could end up costing more than your original purchase price.


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## Tim9 (Jun 7, 2020)

Chipper5783 said:


> You have come to the right place - you'll get plenty of opinions!  Get the old VMC.  Good luck making any money.  I believe you need an idea, a vision of what it is you are going to make.  The actual making chips is almost a commodity (very, very competitive).
> 
> I have two manual mills (and a 3rd that I got just for more tooling and if I every need any parts - or perhaps a future project), they are quite different - thus serve different roles.  They are both in good condition, well tooled, very reputable machines - and would have been expensive (back in the day).  I am very comfortable with the manual mills and I don't feel there is anything with in the capability of the machines that I wouldn't attempt.
> 
> ...


Good post Chipper. Or I should say...David.

Now  of course...I’m just a hobbiest. But, I’d like to add this extra wrench to throw into your works.
  If you do have a great idea and you think it’s a marketable product...the new wrench thrown into the works is that the Chinese do not respect patent law, nor do they play by the rules.

   So let’s say you design and start production of your new Whiz-bang. Then plan on having a good market for about 2 years. And that’s providing you have a good marketing and production line. Because in about 2 years....there will be 15 EBay sellers selling your product at 1/2 the cost. Good luck trying to pay the mortgage on your machines at that point.


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## BGHansen (Jun 7, 2020)

I started with a Grizzly round column Rong Fu type mill.  Then found a nice Jet JVM830 knee mill for a good price about 15 miles from home.  That was my main mill for 30 years of puttering in the shop.  I started making reproduction Erector set parts around 15 years ago which is a real niche market.  Maybe 1000 collectors of them total in the US.  I usually make between $5K to $15K a year in my spare time when I feel like making parts.  I list stuff on eBay, face to face at toy shows and list stuff in a collecting club newsletter.

My "business" is strictly hobby; flip a lot of what I make back into my shop if I want something.  A few years ago I got a hankerin' to buy a Bridgeport.  Not an Alliant, not a Trump, not a Chevalier, but a "real" Bridgeport.  One popped up around 35 miles away for a decent price.  It happened to have a 2-axis Anilam Crusader (circa 1985) CNC control on it.  Didn't know if I wanted to spend the time to learn the programming, but took the mill anyhow.  Wow, were my eyes opened!  CNC is a game changer for production work.  I started writing routines to make parts with the mill doing all of the work instead of my two hands with a file and a bench sander.  I started making stuff that would have never been profitable if made by hand.

Getting a taste of 2-axis CNC gave me an appetite for a 3-axis machine or upgrading the BP.  I contemplated updating my BP with an Acorn controller and either CNC the quill or the Z.  I decided instead to go with a ready-made 3-axis hobby machine and started shopping for a Tormach 1100.  I ended up buying a used Tormach 1100 series 3 from the guy at this web site:





__





						Your Little CNC Shop
					

.: Brackets for BMW/Mini and Porsche are available, as well as for the Focus RS. .: Rear plate brackets for VW and Audi are currently in the works. .: The adjustable gas pedal arm assembly for the Focus RS is back in the works. Check back for updates.




					yourlittlecncshop.com
				




His name is Chris Calvin.  Great guy, super helpful going over the machine.  Would buy something else from him in a heartbeat.  Hit Chris' website and you'll see some really niche stuff:  2014-2016 Super Duke 1290 extended toe shift lever, Subaru Forester XTi emblem, flashlight bezels, O2 sensor bungs, 2016-18 Ford Focus rear licence plate bracket, etc.  He had the Tormach in a temperature controlled room, pretty nice set up.  He loved the machine but sold it to me.  Why?  He works at a "real" CNC shop with a number of Haas machines.  His boss saw what he was making on the side and offered him machine time on the weekends.  He had some stuff that took 20 minutes to run on the Tormach.  Took less than 3 minutes on the Haas, his boss said he could push the machine a little harder and cut the time down.

If you are all in on running a business, I'd probably look for a Haas VF2 or maybe a Haas Mini-Mill depending on the size of part(s) you plan on making.  You've got to consider WHY they are selling the machine.  Is it worn out?  Starting to nickel and dime them with repairs?  Like others have said above, really tough making a go of it if you are trying to make something that others are already making.  Here's a quick example:  parallel keepers.





The ones pictured above are from an eBay ad from a seller in China.  I made some last year and have them on my 3 mills.  Rare earth magnet sticks to the side of the vise, hooks into the opening and holds the parallel upright.  I probably spent a couple of hours milling the aluminum for the profile, sunk in the holes for the magnets with an end mill, then cut them off on a band saw and sanded the edges on a belt sander.  Bought the magnets off eBay for probably around $1 each.  I made up 12 of them in that 2 hours.  Cost of the ones pictured above from China - $19 delivered to your door.  No way, no how could/would I do them for that.  I'd get quicker with the CNC as I made mine on a manual mill, but would still be a really tough way to put dinner on the table competing against the Chinese for a mass-produced item.

I hate to dump a turd in the punch bowl; we all like to see guys/gals spend money on this hobby.  But I'd sure be careful jumping into starting a business unless you have a steady job to fund the business/hobby.

Good luck to you with your venture!  I'm happy with my Tormach, but I'm not making 1000 of something.  I usually make 5 - 50 of something, so more of a prototype set up than mass production.  If I was going to make thousands of something, I'd look for a used Haas.

Bruce


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## C-Bag (Jun 7, 2020)

Tim9 said:


> Good post Chipper. Or I should say...David.
> 
> Now  of course...I’m just a hobbiest. But, I’d like to add this extra wrench to throw into your works.
> If you do have a great idea and you think it’s a marketable product...the new wrench thrown into the works is that the Chinese do not respect patent law, nor do they play by the rules.
> ...


While I agree with what you say, in my direct experience it’s a bit more complicated than that. The sad fact is you are not protected by a patent anywhere. As my FIL’s best friend Bill Clark who was Ronald Reagan‘s personal lawyer told him a patent is only as good as your ability to defend it. The last co. I worked for had a machine and software both patented that were directly copied by a huge competitor. They were able to drag the court case out for almost 10yrs and by that time it was way obsolete. This happens all the time. There are several good vids on this on YT and a really good one by John Saunders on NYC CNC basically saying the same thing.

So like RJ’s friend customer service and doing good work and not getting buried in debt can offer a good way to go. I was told all the same things that I’d be knocked off and after 35yrs it’s still going strong even right now. But I’m super careful and don’t buy new or fancy machines. My mill and lathe were bought so I could make equipment that have helped my process incredibly and keeping me a one man operation.


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## Aukai (Jun 8, 2020)

I do not know the ins, and outs of proprietary/patentable ideas, or what ever it is, but here is a tale. A fellow came up with an idea for 12 point aluminum lug nuts for specialty wheels, anodized colors yada, yada. He offered them to people on a web site, he was getting orders, and then there was a big name company that started selling the very same/similar product with a big advertising budget, and patented the the lug nuts. There was quite the hissy fit, and I'm not sure where it went. I'm just throwing thoughts out there, as you ponder.


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## C-Bag (Jun 8, 2020)

It all depends on what niche you find yourself in. If what you make can be easily reverse engineered and made with CNC I would think you are ripe for being knocked off. I was lucky to have several lawyer buddies who offered advise unsolicited that has been crucial. #1 being they could prove when I started making mine and because a patent you need to do a thorough search to make sure it is truly an original design, patented or not. Because you cannot patent what is common. You have 2yrs from the time it is released to the public to get a patent. My goal was to be able to keep the right to keep manufacturing if somebody did want to throw a bunch of $$ at getting a patent jammed through. Because today especially because of the web if you have a good customer base they will make a ruckus for you if you are knocked off. And there is no worse ding on your rep than you stole somebody’s idea, especially a big Corp.

Another huge factor for me was for the first 20yrs I did everything by hand. And it was truly a labor of love because it was stupidly hard to make, and even harder to make a bunch of them. Almost destroyed my hands and caused permanent nerve damage in my neck. But there is a niche who love the idea of some old guy in his garage for 35yrs slaving away to supply these handmade things. And have remained loyal when I went to laser cut.


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## Chipper5783 (Jun 8, 2020)

jhov said:


> My goal for the machine is very similar to JimDawson's; I have a few design ideas I'd like to prototype. It'd be great if those ideas turned into a business opportunity, but in case they do not I was hoping that the machine might be able to provide some return on investment for general machining. It'd be a shame for such a large and expensive machine to be relegated to hobbyist duty. It sounds like this is not the case so I guess my designs better be successful or I should consider a hobby mill. Thanks everyone for all the replies.



Nothing 'tall wrong with an industrial machine in hobbyist duty.  Nothing wrong with making an "investment" in your interests (basically everybody does that).  I have some pretty nice machines that don't even get turned on once per year.  I don't think that is a "shame" at all.  I'm confused why a hobby machinist should limit themselves to "hobby" machines?  I have all industrial machines - certainly no regrets here.  Stay out of debt, buy the best equipment you can manage (whether cost, weight, size, power, opportunity etc)..


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## JimDawson (Jun 8, 2020)

The real idea is to make a product that fits into such a small niche that nobody would even want to copy and try to sell it.  We have such a product, very small market but enough to keep us busy.  There is no way I would even concider making a general consumer product.  We do have a patent on the product, but the market is so small that it is not attractive to a competitor.  There is a large manufacturer that does have a somewhat similar product, and they are technically in violation of our patent.  But their product is so crappy that there is no impact on our sales so we just ignore them.


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