# Measurement tools



## jonathan01 (Mar 28, 2012)

Hello, I am going to order my lathe this week or next. What kind of measurement tools tools do yall recommend?

I have a 6" dial caliper and a dial indicator with magnetic base, but they are cheap ones. The dail indicator is a plunger type, and only reads to .001", I would like to have one that is more accurate. What is reasonable for a lathe, setup and normal work, 0.00050", 0.00010", 0.00005"? I am thinking either 0.00050" or 0.00010". What brand, plunger or hinged type, dial or digital? Is it worth spending $200-$300 for a indicator? Also, it would probably better to get a good magnetic mount and/or any other type of mount. The dial caliper is a 6" with 0.001" divisions and probably is only the $30 to $40 dollar one. Are the $100-$250 ones really worth the money? I don't have any inside calipers either.

Also, what about a machinist level for leveling my lathe (PM1236), would I get a Starrett #98 8" level, and what about a lathe tool center level/gauge?

Thanks for any help yall can give, I like to buy good quality products, but I could spend $50k if I got every tool that I wanted.


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## metalmaster (Mar 29, 2012)

it depends on what you will be making, my father in law built a 1 1/2 scale live steamer using a pair of dial calipers and a set of Chinese mics.
I don't think you need an indicator that is more accurate than .001 for home use ( you can read between the lines and get close to .0001)
a good level would be the best investment you can make to get accurate work out of your lathe.
save most of your money for the extra tooling it takes to get the most out of the machine.


mike


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

metalmaster said:


> it depends on what you will be making, my father in law built a 1 1/2 scale live steamer using a pair of dial calipers and a set of Chinese mics.
> I don't think you need an indicator that is more accurate than .001 for home use ( you can read between the lines and get close to .0001)
> a good level would be the best investment you can make to get accurate work out of your lathe.
> save most of your money for the extra tooling it takes to get the most out of the machine.
> ...



For now it is home use, and what I will probably be making, .001 would probably be all I need. I understand that you are able to guess accuately to 1 decimal place more than what the lines are. In a couple years, I hope to be doing a good amount of farm repair work, but when I do that I will probably get a Acer 17" x 80" lathe, along with some better tools.

Thanks


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## HMF (Mar 29, 2012)

We have a couple of threads on here listing the first tools you need for a lathe or mill:

Check these out:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/50-Must-Have-Measuring-Tools?highlight=tools

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/52-Some-Useful-Milling-Machine-Tools?highlight=tools

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/51-Some-Useful-Lathe-Tools?highlight=tools

http:/http://www.hobby-machinist.co...55-Members-Tooling-Wish-Lists?highlight=tools

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/5649-First-Things-for-a-Mill

Then look at the "Similar Threads" below- I update them constantly.


Yesterday, I bought a digital caliper at ENCO using the 15% discount with free shipping:

Mitutoyo  Manufacturer Part Number:  500-752-10  Electronic Calipers; Maximum Measuring Range (Decimal Inch): 6.00; Maximum Measuring Range (mm): 150.00; Resolution (Decimal Inch): 0.0005; Resolution (mm): 0.0100; Accuracy (Inch): 0.001; Data Output: No  
Maximum Measuring Range (Decimal Inch):  6.0000" 
Maximum Measuring Range (Inch):  6.000 
Maximum Measuring Range (mm):  150.00mm 
Resolution (Decimal Inch):  .0005" 
Resolution (mm):  .01mm 
Accuracy (in):  0.001 
Style:  IP67 Waterproof 
Features:  Coolantproof 
Power Source:  Battery 
Data Output:  No 
Jaw Length (Decimal Inch):  1.570 
Battery Type:  SR44 
Manufacturers Catalog Number:  500-752 

It sells for $155, I got it for $131.75  with the discount and free shipping. Total with tax was $143.44. 


:tiphat:  Nelson


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks, I will look at this. My question was more for what qualtiy of tools, not so much what tools.

Thanks again


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

The 6" dail calipers I use when I reload pistol and rifle brass, I may do a batch of a 1000 caes at a time, but I only open and close it about 1/2" between each case if that matters.

I agree with using a cheap pair with coolant and chips all over. So, I will probably have the cheap pair to get me close to my dimensions, than clean the part and use the good caliper to get to my final dimensions.

I have a set of Central mics, 0-1" 1-2", 2-3", and 3-4". I am not sure what quality there are, I will take a picture of them when I get home. It is a old set, and I can't seem to find the ones I have anywhere on the internet. I found the company, but not the set that I have.

What is a good magentic base that you would recommend?

As far as the ruler, I just can't think what I would use it for on a lathe. I see using it a lot on a mill, but not the lathe. What are some things that a ruler is good for on a lathe?

I never buy anything used if at all possible. I will stay away from used measuring tools for sure.

Thanks


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## HMF (Mar 29, 2012)

I agree with almost all of Dalee's excellent comments.  But I wouldn't write off Ebay totally IF you are willing to carefully peruse the photos, ask questions, and check the descriptions. I got a really nice Mitutoyo dial caliper and a 0-1" mic on there and it was obvious they weren't used very much, or, gently used. In the caliper's case, he got a digital and sold the dial. It was hardly used, in the case, etc. I got a set of Starrett larger mics- they were used, but not ridden hard. You can tell if the lacquer black is worn off them or not.

Most people will say Chinese stuff is ok for newbies. Here is the problem I have with that. If I buy a Chinese one, and I get bad readings, I will think it's my stupidity- that is how I am. What if it is the mic? So I stick to good brands- then I can be pretty sure any errors are my fault.

So, I have stuck to Mitutoyo for caliper and mics, Starrett and Brown and Sharp for the rest of the stuff. I bought a lot of used stuff on Ebay when it was obviously not ran into the ground. So far, I haven't been bitten too bad I don't think.

Just my .02

:tiphat:Nelson


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## HMF (Mar 29, 2012)

jonathan01 said:


> What is a good magentic base that you would recommend?



I have the heavy-duty Noga ones. We did a survey once, and almost everyone recommended them.


:tiphat:Nelson


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## Tom Griffin (Mar 29, 2012)

Johnathan,

Dial calipers are not really appropriate for lathe work. Micrometers will be much more accurate and easier to get consistent measurements. One inch through three inch mikes should cover most of your needs. You pretty much get what you pay for with the Chinese imports at the low end of quality and the swiss and european imports at the upper end. There are some very good buys on ebay for Swiss Etalon micrometers. I would try there first. I'm not familiar with Central brand, but they sound Chinese. Since you already have them, I would probably wait on something better.

Generally the dial (plunger type) indicators work well for carriage stops on the lathe and dial test indicators (the lever type) work well for indicating the work. A .001" discrimination would be fine for the dial indicator but the dial test indicator should read to .0005". Unless you are machining for a living, spending $200 on an indicator is definitely not necessary. You can get a perfectly good Mitutoyo for $100.

I have a Mitutoyo and an old Enco magnetic base, Both work very well.

You will use a ruler on the lathe for checking non-critical lengths. A 12" flexible rule is handy, graduated in fractions on one side and 10ths. and 50th's on the other. Starrett makes the best but they are pricey.

Other things you'll need if you are planning to cut threads is a thread gauge and thread wires or a thread micrometer. 

You'll also need an assortment of high speed steel tool bits, 5% cobalt is good, center drills, something to knurl with (the type that clamps on the work is best as opposed to the ones that push on it). How about collets, are you getting them with the lathe? Live centers and drill chucks? A parting or cut-off tool? How about drills over 1/2"? Get a few with a taper to match your tailstock. You should also have some type of boring bar to fit whatever tool post you have.

That should be enough for now to make your bank account squirm. Have fun!

Tom


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

Tom,

Ok, I can agree with micrometers for diameters, but for lengths I would think either a dial caliper or the ruler like you said. What about for critical lengths? The Central box says Cranston, Rhode Island, but it is possible that they are still a import and are just sold the Rhode Island.

I have thread pitch gauges that came with my tap and die set. I also have a rethreading set, so I could run them onto my threads to test them, would this wrong to test threads this way or what? 

I know that I need to get some HSS tool bits, didn't know what % cobalt to go for though. I also need to get center drills and such. I will also look into the clamp type knurl. I do need to look into colletes. They don't come with the lathe. I will probably see how much I spend on other tooling to see if I can get collets now or not. I know it comes with 1 live center for sure, but it may have two, it does have one tailstock drill chuck, it comes with a face plate, but I don't think it comes with a lathe dog. I need to get all the parting, turning, boring bars, etc. I only have a few cheap misc drills over 1/2", none with a taper. The spindle taper is a MT5, and the tailstock is a MT3. The tool post is a wedge type QCTP, with 5 holder.

Jonathan


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

Here is my set of mics.

I don't know if it is supposed to be like this, but the 0"-1" mic when it is closed all the way, there is a little gap between to two rods that you can see though. I would have to quess the space is between 0.005" and 0.010".


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

Allthumbz said:


> Yesterday, I bought a digital caliper at ENCO using the 15% discount with free shipping:
> 
> Mitutoyo Manufacturer Part Number: 500-752-10 Electronic Calipers.
> I got it for $131.75 with the discount and free shipping. Total with tax was $143.44.
> ...



I might just buy this same caliper too. I am looking for a discount code now for them.


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## metalmaster (Mar 29, 2012)

those look like some nice mics, but there should not be a gap between the faces of the 1 inch mic
if you close it all of the way does the barrel of the mic go past zero?
if it does you should be able to turn the inner barrel with a spanner wrench to reset the zero
hope that made sense and have fun when you get the new lathe.

mike


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## Tony Wells (Mar 29, 2012)

Central tools are decent. You'll often find them in automotive machine shops, and catalogs. I had a bore gage made by them but I found it awkward to set and use. It was designed for engine block work. 

The gap in your 0-1 is not a good sign. But then, it might not be scrap either. The very end of the thimble should have a screw that will release the ratchet, if it has that, and then the barrel will be mounted on a taper on the spindle. The details vary, but it would be worth exploring, since it is not usable as it is. Remove the barrel from the taper and try to close the mic again. There should be no gap when gently closed. Use a piece of paper to confirm the closure, and that is even on the entire surface. If the gap cannot be closed with the barrel removed, scrap it. If it can, then with the mic closed, gently replace the barrel with the zero as close as possible to the index line. Do not replace the ratchet and screw at this time. Open and close the mic a few times until you are satisfied with the zero alignment and the closure. Open it a few turns and then replace the ratchet with no pressure on the spindle/anvil faces. After tightening the screw, then close the mic using the ratchet and set the zero with the hopefully included wrench.

The "ruler" in machine shop parlance is a "scale" or just a "rule". Handy for all sorts of things.....stirring coffee, slicing cake in the office, etc.....and a famous machinist test that some of you may know about: The distance between the eyebrows of a trainee will determine whether they will make it through the training program. I know a couple of ME's that failed the test.


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

metalmaster said:


> those look like some nice mics, but there should not be a gap between the faces of the 1 inch mic
> if you close it all of the way does the barrel of the mic go past zero?
> if it does you should be able to turn the inner barrel with a spanner wrench to reset the zero
> hope that made sense and have fun when you get the new lathe.
> ...



It gets hard to turn, almost like it hit the bottom of the threads. It has a cap on the top that I can unscrew, and it has a allen screw screwed into the side of the caliper. Would I use a spanner it the head of the allen? I am thinking that I just have to lossen the allen screw, and turn the inner barrel to reset zero, but have not tried that yet.

After looking at the gap again, it is probably on 0.003" 0.005".


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

Here is my indicator and mic with the top off. The indicator and base are made in china. They a MSC encomey sticker on the case, with made in china stickers on the base and indicator.

I am going to see what i can do to fix the gap.


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## jonathan01 (Mar 29, 2012)

I got it to close the gap, I took it apart more and got it.

I turn the small rod and it closed easy. What is the small straight knurled nut thing for on the inside of the caliper.


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## metalmaster (Mar 29, 2012)

that will snug up the threads, you can adjust for wear if they get a little sloppy.


mike


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## Hawkeye (Mar 29, 2012)

I picked up the identical set (blue foam and all) at a pawn shop last year, except that the 0-1" had been replaced by a Starrett No. 436. I haven't used it much, but I did a calibration on them, so they're ready when needed.

I wouldn't worry too much right now about measuring down to the nearest angstrom. Total precision only counts when your equipment and experience allow you to get that close. If and when you're ready for closer than 0.001, there are plenty of mic's available with vernier scales to get you down to 0.0001.


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## Tom Griffin (Mar 30, 2012)

jonathan01 said:


> Tom,
> 
> Ok, I can agree with micrometers for diameters, but for lengths I would think either a dial caliper or the ruler like you said. What about for critical lengths? The Central box says Cranston, Rhode Island, but it is possible that they are still a import and are just sold the Rhode Island.
> 
> ...



For critical lengths on the lathe like steps in a part, you just rely on the dial indicator on your carriage stop. Use an indicator with at least 1" of travel, zero it on the end of your part and use it to measure your moves. If you want to use the caliper to check the overall length of a part, take it out of the lathe for measurement.

If you want to cut threads on your lathe, you'll need a thread gauge to set the tool. It's one of those arrow shaped things with the 60º v cuts in the side to align the tool. Using dies to check the diameter of the thread is not acceptable. To do a good job you need something to measure the pitch diameter. Thread wires only cost a few bucks and with work well without having to spend a bunch of cash for a thread micrometer.

Lathe dogs are also quite expensive because you need so many sizes. But you can get adjustable ones that cover a larger range to save money.

Tom


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## jonathan01 (Mar 30, 2012)

Tom,

I know I need the arrow thread gauge thing, and I am going to look into the thread wires and other thread measurement things. As for the dies, I was saying to use the rethreading die, the solid dies, not the threading die with the slot cut in it. Would the solid die be acceptable?

Once I get my lathe and start making some things, I will start getting things worked out.


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## Tom Griffin (Mar 30, 2012)

jonathan01 said:


> Tom,
> 
> I know I need the arrow thread gauge thing, and I am going to look into the thread wires and other thread measurement things. As for the dies, I was saying to use the rethreading die, the solid dies, not the threading die with the slot cut in it. Would the solid die be acceptable?
> 
> Once I get my lathe and start making some things, I will start getting things worked out.



Jonathan,

Can you cut a thread that will work using a re-threading die as a gauge? Absolutely. But what if you want to cut a thread and you don't have a re-threading die to check it? If you learn to measure threads correctly from the start, you'll be able to cut any size thread you like to any tolerance required. It may be an old adage but if it's worth doing at all, it's worth doing right. Get your self a set of *thread wires* and learn how to use them. If you need help, there are a lot of people around here who are more than willing to assist. After all, learning is what this whole hobby machinist thing is about isn't it?

Tom


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## jonathan01 (Mar 30, 2012)

Ok, I get what you are saying now, thread wire set will do all threads, and I would have to have a die for every thread that I cut.


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## toag (Apr 1, 2012)

I'd say use the cheapos til they break, your skill gets to the point where you need better, or you win he mega millions.

Honestly i think a set of 0-1, 1-2 and 2-3 mics once youre "into it" are a good investment. Calipers can be off as much as .005 just by bad technique, dirt, anything.  these guys have a ton of info on indicator, mic and caliper brands (they love swiss stuff... go fig).   

Also, forgive me if i sound like a cheap noob, but what else will you use  a machinist level for besides leveling the lathe? a mill? a grinder? maybe some other machines?  See if someone you know  or a guy from one of many forums will bring one and help you level your new lathe.  Make a friend, have a few cold ones, and get out of it cheap, cause thats alot of coin that could go into tooling, and alot of coin should go into tooling.

Machining is addictive.  soon, you'll want a mill, a vertical.  Then you'll want a horizontal (which are sick fun).  Then a shaper... power hack saw... you start going to auctions and looking in the local classifieds... say things like "honey can i take 500 out of the kids college fund? theres a old brown and sharp no2 surface grinder at this hillbilly auction..." ask me how i know :thinking:


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## Redirish (Apr 1, 2012)

Plus 1 on what toag said about the levels. I still have three, two are Starrett, one is a high dollar French made one that reads .0005 in 12 inches. I used them on the job until I retired, now they sit in my tool chest. I don't know about the current Central tools, but I used Central micrometers about 20 years ago and they were American made and good ones. I had one of their digital calipers, it wasn't much.


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## jonathan01 (Apr 1, 2012)

As for the level, I was looking at the Starrett 98 8" level, which is about $140-$150. I would just be using it on my lathe, mill, etc and probably a pool table. I agree about getting one from a friend would be nice, or making a friend from a forum would be even better. The only thing is when i need to use a level, I want to be able to just take it out the case and use it, and not have to ask my friend when I can use his.

As for the caliper, I will probably use the cheapo I have for reloading, where gun powder could get in them and it wouldn't  hurt my pocket if they broke. My set of mics are probably 20 years old. Also, I have the rods from the set of mics that I can use to check the accuarcy of my caliper.

I will probably just spend the extra money and get a decent mag base, DTI, caliper, and a starrett 98. I just feel better having good tools. Hopefully I will be able to get enough side jobs to pay for my tooling.

I can see myself getting hooked on machining, and have $100k-$200k in a shop. I am going try and get started doing some farm repair, some other small lathe jobs for the 12x36 lathe. Than get a 17x80 lathe, than a regular mill, than a horizontal mill, etc. I may get into making shafts and gears, so I would need to have the gear spin as it moves across the table, or maybe even get a cnc mill for it.

As long as I can make money off of something I don't made buying it.


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## jonathan01 (Apr 1, 2012)

This is kind of off topic, but one sort of good thing is that they have three phases of power ran down the hwy in front of my mississippi property, which is where I would start a machine shop, if I did. The shop would probably be for mostly farm repairs. I should be able to just get two more transformers put up on the pole, and I would have three phase power to my shop. They have one transformer on the pole already that only feeds my house. It is a small one though, so I have to make sure that it would be big enough to handle my three phase power, or I would have to get three new transformers instead of just two.


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## Tony Wells (Apr 1, 2012)

Policy varies, I'm sure, but when I built my shop, the utility company had to establish a new service for me. I had located the nearest pole up the road from me (I live in the country) that had three phase for an oil well pump about 400 yards from my location. When I requested service to my building, an engineer came out for the site survey and I let him know what I wanted and that I knew where it had to come from. There was no hassle, and no extra charges even though they had to run a third 7.2 KV line down to me, set a new pole on my place, a couple of new cross-arms to get the lines across the road to my pole. I built the meter loop myself, and installed it with a disconnect inside the building so I could work on the entire shop system.

So, if you don't already have power to the building, you may not have to pay a lot after all. In all cases that I know of where there is already a service, they do charge handsomely to upgrade to three phase.


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## jonathan01 (Apr 1, 2012)

Tony Wells said:


> Policy varies, I'm sure, but when I built my shop, the utility company had to establish a new service for me. I had located the nearest pole up the road from me (I live in the country) that had three phase for an oil well pump about 400 yards from my location. When I requested service to my building, an engineer came out for the site survey and I let him know what I wanted and that I knew where it had to come from. There was no hassle, and no extra charges even though they had to run a third 7.2 KV line down to me, set a new pole on my place, a couple of new cross-arms to get the lines across the road to my pole. I built the meter loop myself, and installed it with a disconnect inside the building so I could work on the entire shop system.
> 
> So, if you don't already have power to the building, you may not have to pay a lot after all. In all cases that I know of where there is already a service, they do charge handsomely to upgrade to three phase.



My property is in the country too. It is basically the same thing by us, we put up a service pole with a meter box on our property, and they put and transformer on the main line across the hwy, ran the service across the hwy to their pole, that they put on our property, than to our service pole, and put the meter in the box.

The power company is a Co-op, that we had to pay like $20 to join, and a deposit of a amount based on the type of building. For the single phase power that we had put in, we had to pay for it, but it wasn't as much as expected. We had to pay the full costs, but that was because building was just being used as a camp. As for as normal single phase power, if you use more than 700 Kwh per month, the power company pays up to $2,300. The same thing for line extensions, reconstruction, etc, it is the total costs minus whatever that can salvage minus up to $2,300. Except if the farm, shop, etc usage it not high enouh than you have to pay all costs.

They have three hot wires ran on the cross-arms with a neutral attached to the side of the pole about 3 feet under the cross-arms, that runs down the entire hwy. They just have small single transformers, which only use one of the three phases, by each house.

Thanks


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## fgduncan (Sep 15, 2013)

jonathan01 said:


> Hello, I am going to order my lathe this week or next. What kind of measurement tools tools do yall recommend?
> 
> I have a 6" dial caliper and a dial indicator with magnetic base, but they are cheap ones. The dail indicator is a plunger type, and only reads to .001", I would like to have one that is more accurate. What is reasonable for a lathe, setup and normal work, 0.00050", 0.00010", 0.00005"? I am thinking either 0.00050" or 0.00010". What brand, plunger or hinged type, dial or digital? Is it worth spending $200-$300 for a indicator? Also, it would probably better to get a good magnetic mount and/or any other type of mount. The dial caliper is a 6" with 0.001" divisions and probably is only the $30 to $40 dollar one. Are the $100-$250 ones really worth the money? I don't have any inside calipers either.
> 
> ...




There are a couple of things to consider in buying metrology equipment.  First, what accuracy is needed for the job at hand? 0.001 inch is good enough for almost any job done by an amateur. And most professionals, too.  When you start talking about 10ths, now you are getting into space age dimensions and all kinds of things pop up.  One major consideration is temperature! When going to 10ths, you have to specify the temperature that you are making the measuring the item at. The heat from you hand when you pick it up will change the dimension! If you touch the part barehanded, you leave a trace of oil and salt which can cause corrosion.

Many derogatory comments have been made about Chinese equipment.  The same used to be said for Japanese tooling, then they started working on their QC and have become the world standard. I have used Chinese from Harbor freight and the digital calipers I've picked up have universally worked very well. I check them periodically on some TC (Tungsten carbide) gage blocks and they always zero out. I might add that my respect for Chinese equipment is very great.  The stuff I have bought has been accurate, durable and cheap. It is scary to see them make gage blocks about as good as Lufkin or Starret at a small fraction of the cost of the name brand.

I have several micrometers, but I haven't used them in many years. I have found that the dial and digital calipers serve the same purpose and are very much faster to use. I also have a vernier caliper which is destined for a shadow box. It will never be used again.

Before I bought a (very expensive) machinist level which would be used one time and put away, I would turn a test bar on the lathe. When you are set up and ready to rock and roll, turn a piece of metal between centers. Measure the diameter at the headstock and the tailstock. There are adjustment screws on the tailstock which moves it at right angles to the bed. Adjust them until your test bar has zero runout from end to end. Tighten the screws against the tailstock locking it in position and you are done.  And you don't need to buy a once and done piece of equipment.

Hope this helps

FGD


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## davidh (Sep 15, 2013)

fgduncan said:


> Many derogatory comments have been made about Chinese equipment.  The same used to be said for Japanese tooling, then they started working on their QC and have become the world standard. I have used Chinese from Harbor freight and the digital calipers I've picked up have universally worked very well. I check them periodically on some TC (Tungsten carbide) gage blocks and they always zero out. I might add that my respect for Chinese equipment is very great.  The stuff I have bought has been accurate, durable and cheap. It is scary to see them make gage blocks about as good as Lufkin or Starret at a small fraction of the cost of the name brand.
> 
> *I have several micrometers, but I haven't used them in many years. I have found that the dial and digital calipers serve the same purpose and are very much faster to use. I also have a vernier caliper which is destined for a shadow box. It will never be used again.*
> 
> ...



I could not have said it any better than that   we're not building space ships


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