# Romex On Block



## sk1nner (Apr 3, 2016)

My garage is block construction.   I'm in the process of lining the walls with pegboard.  As furring strips I'm using 2x4's laid down on the wall (the "4 inch" side is against the block).  My question is can I run romex along the 2x4s without conduit, or is conduit still required?  I have no problem running conduit if needed,  but bif I can get away (legally) without it would be nice.  The pegboard will covery everything up so either way it will look nice,  I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.  As always thank you for any and all  help.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 3, 2016)

I'm not a licensed electrician so consider the source but in Wisconsin, Romex is not normally run through conduit.  I don't believe that it can't be run through conduit.  I did so on a basement to attic run because I wanted the flexibility to change the wiring at some future point. 

One reason for doing so if you are putting pegboard up would be to preclude the possibility of damaging the wire when using the pegboard.


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## 4GSR (Apr 3, 2016)

NEC doesn't really say what method is proper other than saying the wiring must be protected from damage.  You can run romex in conduit.  I have done it in my garage without issues.  I don't run any other wires in the same conduit with the romex.  I would suggest contacting your local building codes enforcement office and get a ruling on what they allow and what is not allowed.  They don't mind helping out homeowners for minor wiring jobs like you are doing.  Don't tell them you're finishing out your basement!  That might cost you a building permit and them coming out and inspecting what you are doing.  Don't worry, they won't come back and hunt you unless you've done something wrong.


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## John Hasler (Apr 3, 2016)

RJSakowski said:


> I'm not a licensed electrician



Neither am I: just an electrical engineer.



> Romex is not normally run through conduit.



True.

[QUOTEI don't believe that it can't be run through conduit.[/QUOTE]

It can be if properly derated.  That's not likely to be a problem in practice.


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## John Hasler (Apr 3, 2016)

sk1nner said:


> My garage is block construction.   I'm in the process of lining the walls with pegboard.  As furring strips I'm using 2x4's laid down on the wall (the "4 inch" side is against the block).  My question is can I run romex along the 2x4s without conduit, or is conduit still required?  I have no problem running conduit if needed,  but bif I can get away (legally) without it would be nice.  The pegboard will covery everything up so either way it will look nice,  I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.  As always thank you for any and all  help.


I think that the pegboard would count as interior finishing for this purpose as long as the walls are fully covered by it.

However, the pegboard may not be legal as an interior finish due to fire safety rules.  Is this an attached garage?


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## Al 1 (Apr 3, 2016)

John Hasler said:


> I think that the pegboard would count as interior finishing for this purpose as long as the walls are fully covered by it.
> 
> However, the pegboard may not be legal as an interior finish due to fire safety rules.  Is this an attached garage?


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## Al 1 (Apr 3, 2016)

Sk,   A couple of things came my fuzzy brain.   Block unless sealed properly will absorb moisture.  That said, how are your 2x4's going to hold up being directly connect and against the block?  The other question I have is are you going to be inserting metal pegs into the pegboard? If so, what are the chances of contacting your romex?   Just some thoughts.    Al.


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## sk1nner (Apr 3, 2016)

This is a detached uninsulated garage.   I may use metal pegs on the board in the future, not sure.  The 2x4s are being held to the block with hammershot nails.


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## John Hasler (Apr 3, 2016)

sk1nner said:


> This is a detached uninsulated garage.


I wouldn't worry about it then.  Just go ahead and use Romex.

Also last I knew you can run Romex exposed above eight feet in that sort of space.


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## TOOLMASTER (Apr 3, 2016)

conduit is cheap


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## Tony Wells (Apr 3, 2016)

I have a dislike (unexplainable, except for maybe I favor stranded wire) for NM-B, so I would go the conduit route and pull THHN. It's easy to expand or replace should the need arise. Yes, it's more trouble, and more expense......so my argument may not hold water, especially considering the house near this space is likely wired with Romex. Just make sure wherever you have to drill through wooden members, you protect it from future puncture with protective plates made for that.


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## mzayd3 (Apr 3, 2016)

Solid wire in conduit is a bear to pull. Typically if the wall cavity is less than 3.5" deep- 1.75 to center where I would staple the wire, I use metal-clad at a minimum. I like conduit for its expandability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## icore3user (Apr 3, 2016)

nmc must be set back at the front edge by a min of 1 1/4", so the center of a 3 1/2 stud is fine or better yet set it to the back of the furring strip adjacent to the block wall. I never run nmc inside of conduit, as why would you want to, it's far harder than solid wire. Solid wire is not that hard to pull through conduit, much depends on how big the conduit and the umber of wires your pulling and how many bends ( totaling less than 360 degrees ) in the run. Stranded is easier to pull through conduit. Once inside a wall nmc is considered to be protected. If you fear hitting  the cable with the pegboard hooks you could always sleeve the cable in conduit to protect it, but generally pegboard hooks do not go in deep enough to hit a cable that is set back by the minimum required amount.


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## John Hasler (Apr 3, 2016)

icore3user said:


> I never run nmc inside of conduit, as why would you want to, it's far harder than solid wire.


In an ag building nmc must be protected below 8' but can be exposed above that so I stub conduit up and run exposed nmc in the rafters.  In such buildings most of the wiring is for overhead lighting anyway.  The nmc pulls easily in such short straight runs.


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## sk1nner (Apr 3, 2016)

The 2x4s are layed sideways.  I am just using them as furring strips, not structure.   From the advice I have been given on here I think I will conduit along the wall, and bare along the rafter run to the wall.  Thank you everyone for the help.


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## kd4gij (Apr 4, 2016)

Sounds like a plan to me.


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## BobSchu (Apr 4, 2016)

No, it is not legal to run romex in conduit except for very short runs for protection . Technically, you are running one wiring method inside another wiring method, which is frowned upon in most jurisdictions. Anyway, if you were going to run conduit anyway, it would be much cheaper and easier  to just install THHN stranded wire in the conduit as long as you use the proper fittings, boxes, grounding means, etc.... to make it a complete system. 

It would be legal to run romex behind the pegboard on the wall as long as you have a sufficient fastening and support system. The code says you need at least 1 1/4" of clearance from the face of the stud or support to protect the romex from sheetrock screws and/or nails. You may need to fir the face of the 2x4 out a bit to make sure you have the proper clearance. If you leave the 2x4's flat, it is the perfect depth to use 1 1/2" x 4 x 4 metal boxes and plaster rings to mount your receptacles and switches in. Any decent plastic anchor with tight fitting screws will work fine for required support for the conduit and boxes. Just be sure to ground everything properly, especially the devices. 

Bob


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## CraigB1960 (Apr 4, 2016)

Bob, I don't remember it being "illegal" to run romex in conduit, except in wet/damp locations.  I am getting old and have not looked at the NEC code book for awhile.  Depending on size of conduit, you might have to derate the circuit.

Bottom line, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to run romex (NM) cable in conduit, when THHN is ready available and easy to pull.  I would install MC cable before I would consider romex in conduit.

A lot of does and don'ts are controlled by local code (authorities) and one should check with them...assuming you are getting a permit if required.


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## BobSchu (Apr 4, 2016)

Craig, can't find the article right at the moment but I can assure I've been corrected on this violation and many electricians I know have also been "redlined" on this violation also, when using it for more than a short piece for protection.
Regardless, I doubt you could ever get enough romex into an EMT (which isn't technically conduit, but actually tubing) to have to consider derating as a factor. I'm with you-only an inexperienced person would consider running romex in conduit when THHN is easily available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc... and is much easier to work with and you can install more circuits in a conduit with THHN in any case. 

Bob


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## CraigB1960 (Apr 4, 2016)

BobSchu said:


> Craig, can't find the article right at the moment but I can assure I've been corrected on this violation and many electricians I know have also been "redlined" on this violation also, when using it for more than a short piece for protection.
> Regardless, I doubt you could ever get enough romex into an EMT (which isn't technically conduit, but actually tubing) to have to consider derating as a factor. I'm with you-only an inexperienced person would consider running romex in conduit when THHN is easily available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc... and is much easier to work with and you can install more circuits in a conduit with THHN in any case.
> 
> Bob



Hi Bob,
I'm a retired EE (PE), but my field of specialty was in Transmission Engineering automation and protection...so code was not much of a consideration.  I am no code expert by any stretch of imagination.   But with that said, I have heard many times this argument on the code violation.  I have never read the the section of code posted..nor I have ever found it in the code book.  (My latest book is 2008 IIRC)

We both agree, it is a bad idea and makes it a moot point.  But for my interest if you do fine the article, please reference it if it has the NEC code section. That would be something that would go in my notes.


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## steve323 (Apr 4, 2016)

My opinion is that THHN is easier to run, but will end up being much more expensive for a small project like this.  You will end up buying rolls of green, black, white, and possibly red wire.  500' rolls of 12 ga will cost $45, but 50' rolls are more than double the price per foot. 

One other comment is that you will lose a lot of pegboard real estate if you lay the 2x4s flat.  Each one will block 3 rows of holes if perfectly positioned.  2x2s would only block a single row.

Steve


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## Tony Wells (Apr 4, 2016)

Those 500' rolls always seem to go quicker than I figure. And I like having it on hand for adding circuits. I buy wholesale, so the cost isn't so bad. I do have a habit of keeping only 12g or larger though. My light circuits are all 12g, even though they are on 15 amp breakers.


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## Wireaddict (Apr 5, 2016)

If you haven't already bought your materials, another way to wire your shop that has the advantages of both romex & conduit is to run MC cable.  It's flexible like romex & it's metal clad so it has some protection from puncture damage.  It's also rated at 600V [RMS] so it can be used for 480 VAC where necessary & it's available with solid stranded conductors although most electrical distributors don't stock both styles.  Hope this helps.


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## steve323 (Apr 5, 2016)

MC cable is a great way to go behind pegboard.  Use screws to hang the pegboard just in case you want to add an extra outlet later.

I like to put outlets every 32 or 48 inches so there is always a plug nearby.  I also alternate the plugs on different branches so I can run 2 high power loads without blowing the breaker.  All of my power outlets use 12ga wire with 20A breakers.

Steve


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## jim18655 (Apr 5, 2016)

2011 NEC ( newest I have handy) 334.15 Exposed Work 334.15 (B) Protection from physical damage lists methods to protect cable from damage and tubing and conduit is listed. 334.15 (C)   in unfinished basements and crawl spaces allows cables to be installed in conduit or tubing for protection as long as a suitable bushing or adapter is provide and the jacket extends at least 1/4" into the box.


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## BobSchu (Apr 5, 2016)

As stated, yes "exposed work" in romex must be protected by short pieces of conduit, usually in the neighborhood of extending up to 8 feet or so, depending on the jurisdiction. Once the conduit/tubing is going to be covered it is not allowed and not really wise to use romex in the tubing/conduit when there are much better alternatives. In fact, it would be wiser if all you have is romex, to go ahead and run the romex/NMB cable exposed above the pegboard walls and run conduit from a Jbox at the ceiling or exposed upper area down to the receptacles/switches. Using a proper romex connector connect the exposed romex to the box. Then, if all you have is romex, strip off the jacket and treat it as individual conductors ( it is THHN inside the jacket after all) and pull it down to the receptacles, splicing it at the upper box so it can be carried along to the next location as needed. You can pull the bare copper ground wire just like any other conductor, just make sure to tuck it back into the box well so it doesn't short out the device when you close the cover.

I have done this in a pinch when I needed to finish a job and all I had left in the truck was a roll of romex and a few boxes and the customer needed to use the shop/area. 

Bob


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## abrace (Apr 6, 2016)

BobSchu said:


> Once the conduit/tubing is going to be covered it is not allowed and not really wise to use romex in the tubing/conduit when there are much better alternatives.



As others have said, there is nothing in the code that prevents putting Romex in conduit regardless of whether or not the conduit will be covered PROVIDED that conductor fills in the conduit are respected and the conduit is run in a location where romex is permitted..i.e. you can't put romex in condiit outdoors and call it a dry location. It is a bad idea to put romex in conduit in general, but it is not against code. If you have a code article that states it is disallowed please post, I have never found one. Since the code is a permissive document, if it isn't prohibited explicitly in the code then it is allowed.



BobSchu said:


> In fact, it would be wiser if all you have is romex, to go ahead and run the romex/NMB cable exposed above the pegboard walls and run conduit from a Jbox at the ceiling or exposed upper area down to the receptacles/switches. Using a proper romex connector connect the exposed romex to the box. Then, if all you have is romex, strip off the jacket and treat it as individual conductors ( it is THHN inside the jacket after all)



I hear this a lot. What spec states that Romex conductors are THHN? The conductors in Romex are usually not THHN. They could be THHN, but they are often not, and I rarely see it. They are 90 degree conductors like THHN, but thats it. There is nothing in the code or the UL listing that requires THHN in romex. It could be various conductor types allowed by the code, or some other conductor type as long as it is properly listed as is rated for 90 degrees. 334.112 covers this. MC, on

Also, skinning romex and running it in conduit as if it was THHN *CAN* be a violation because the conductors in Romex are not usually individually marked. THHN conductors are, where each conductor has the gauge and insulation ratings (THHN/THWN etc) written on the insulation. With Romex, it is usually just the outer jacket that contains this info and the conductors within the cable are blank. Nothing written on them. Marking is required by 310.110. Inspector may not bust you on it, but the longer the run the bigger the risk. Some consider this a ridiculous rule, but you open up a box or panel and have unmarked conductors in it and then have to trace the conduit back 30 feet until you can find the part where the romex enters the conduit fitting to read the label. Not fun. Leave the jacket with the conductors until you strip it to make the termination at the final box where it is being terminated.


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## BobSchu (Apr 6, 2016)

In your jurisdiction, it very well may be legal to install Romex in conduit. In this area it is not allowed. If I could find the code article again, I would quote it but I don't do enough residential wiring any more to justify keeping up with the code for those installations any more. 

I doubt you've been around long enough to remember when Romex changed over from XHHW type insulation inside the sheath to the common wire types used now, which is actually THHN even if it isn't marked as such. When it was first introduced, the THHN and wire size was still marked on the insulation of the conductors, but your post made me go out in the garage and check and it isn't marked any more. Hmmmmm..... not that it would really matter as I've never had an inspector look that closely at the wire in my panels and I'm not trying to cut any corners in any case. Even if it was RHH or some other uncommon insulation type it would still meet the intent and letter of the code and be safe as installed so I would not hesitate to do it again. 

The fact is, you don't know me or my experience level and  you deduce an awful lot from a couple posts, judging from your tone. You may feel justified in using that tone to correct my statements, but I'm not really in the mood any more to deal with it and I'm getting too old to spend time trying to be helpful and getting this type of response in return.


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## abrace (Apr 7, 2016)

BobSchu said:


> You may feel justified in using that tone to correct my statements, but I'm not really in the mood any more to deal with it and I'm getting too old to spend time trying to be helpful and getting this type of response in return.



Absolutely no bad tone was intended in my response and I am sorry if you took it that way or it came across that way. Just trying to state the facts as I know them and some of the reasoning behind them.

You are right, I do not remember Romex changing over, but if it did that was probably an individual manufacturer doing so. Romex can contain whatever type of conductor the manufacturer pleases. It could be one specifically allowable by the code, as you mention, there could be cases of THHN, RHH, etc, or it could be another type they make up on their own provided it is listed by a recognized listing agency such as UL.

In any case, sorry that my post came across as jerkish. Not my intent at all, just trying to give my perspective.


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## TOOLMASTER (Apr 7, 2016)

Tony Wells said:


> Those 500' rolls always seem to go quicker than I figure. And I like having it on hand for adding circuits. I buy wholesale, so the cost isn't so bad. I do have a habit of keeping only 12g or larger though. My light circuits are all 12g, even though they are on 15 amp breakers.


14 SHOULDN'T EVEN BY USED..


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## Tony Wells (Apr 7, 2016)

14 is fine for light circuits and other low current, short runs as long as it follows design allowances and code recommendations. It should never be protected by larger than 15 amp circuit breakers, although there are special circumstances that this is allowable. Very few though.


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## stevemetsch (Apr 18, 2016)

Sk1nner,
What you are allowed to do is locally controlled.
Do yourself a favor and ask your local building dept and describe it completely and clearly so you get a good answer.
For my time and money I like conduit because you can hang stuff on it 
Steve in Santa Barbara


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