# Would YOU put a small mill and lathe on casters?



## erikmannie (Sep 8, 2019)

I joined this forum because I just bought a Precision Matthews PM-25MV with DRO and PM-1030V with DRO. I also bought the stands for these machines from Precision Matthews.

My shop is a 2 car garage that I have all to myself, but it was already _*almost*_ full before I bought these machines. It already has a bicycle repair area and six welding carts, among other things.

I am always moving most of the welding carts off into the bicycle repair area when I work at my welding table. I only bring the welding carts that I will use for that task.

*I will be putting my welding table and two workbenches on casters*, but I sure am reluctant to put the mill and lathe on casters. I Googled the matter, and it led me to a thread on this forum which shows that it can surely be done. I wanted to ask whomever is willing to chime in if they would do it. I am really leaning toward putting the machines in a prime spot, leveling them and* leaving them there* for their entire life.

It seems to me that one  would have to check the level after moving the cart back to it's spot.

I should also point out that I am just starting out in machining. I am signed up for three classes that start in a few months. The closest training that I have had is bicycle frame building where we used a Bridgeport knee mill and a large horizontal mill. The instructor let us watch, but we were pretty much forbidden to touch the milling machines.

I will be using the machines to make parts for electric bicycles. It sounds like I should do my MIG and stick welding, grinding, and torch cutting as far away from the machines as I can.


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## cathead (Sep 8, 2019)

Welcome to the HM forum group!


I can appreciate the advantages of wheels on some shop tools but it is probably not a good idea on a lathe or mill.  
Back in WWII, lathes were bonded to the floor with cement for rigidity and accuracy.  Also any tendency for a machine
move around during operation would be a safety hazard.  It's best to find a spot for your machines and leave it at that.  

Good luck on your bicycle endeavors.  It sounds like you are well on your way to an interesting career.


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 8, 2019)

WElcome, Yes I would highly recommend that you don't put lathes and mills on casters. If you absolutely have to move them make the casters so that you can wind them up an down and after each move you have to resettle the machine so it is flat and square. 

The only exception would be in the case of mini machines if you set them on a very rigid base and square them up then the you can move them about base and all, but larger machines will,be a problem


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## DiscoDan (Sep 8, 2019)

I have a small P&W horizontal on a very sturdy metal cart with casters that lock and I have not had any issues.


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## mikey (Sep 8, 2019)

My lathe and mill are on Carrymaster leveling casters and I actually prefer it this way. I can  easily move them by myself to clean or work on them if needed but they are rock solid once the wheels are off the ground. The mill need not be level; just stable. The lathe is re-leveled after every move (admittedly not that often) and checked every 6 months as part of my routine maintenance. I also re-level it after doing something heavy or if the work was out of balance. Lathes do not stay level; even one that is permanently mounted needs to be re-leveled from time to time. In a crowded shop, mobility can be an important option.


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## Flyinfool (Sep 8, 2019)

As mentioned, casters are not ideal and accuracy will suffer. If the reduced accuracy will not affect your needs then the answer is easy.
If Mobility is required, and since you have welding capability already, I would build a VERY stiff cart with retractable casters so that the machine is sitting solid during use. If you think your design is stiff enough, double the strength and you might be close to stiff enough. Look at how stiff the machine looks, The machine is no where near stiff enough and will flex in use. Your base needs to be even stiffer. The bases made by the manufacturer are stiff enough when permanently mounted and leveled.
If you make that stand with just 3 points of contact it will always sit solid on all 3 points. If you have 4 or more contact points then it will always be rocking due to slight unevenness in the floor. The very best concrete work is not flat. You can make the cart with 4 casters for better stability while moving it around as long as the casters are retractable so that the machine is resting on 3 points for use.


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## kb58 (Sep 8, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> ... If you make that stand with just 3 points of contact it will always sit solid on all 3 points. If you have 4 or more contact points then it will always be rocking due to slight unevenness in the floor. The very best concrete work is not flat. You can make the cart with 4 casters for better stability while moving it around as long as the casters are retractable so that the machine is resting on 3 points for use.


This is exactly what I did for my PM935 mill for these same reasons.

For my Webb TSL-800 lathe, I compromised because it's got six leveling points. I used four leveling castors and two machine leveling pads.


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## Chewy (Sep 8, 2019)

I have the PM30-MV on casters and the PM1228VF-LB on 4x4's and metal shims. The mill works OK on most stuff but is not as rigid/ vibration proof as I would like.  I have not settled on final shop arraignment so it will stay on 4" casters from Lowes.  The PM stand is bolted to a reinforced piece of Advantech flooring as it is more dense than plywood.  Go to Frank Hoose  



 and look at how he solves that problem.  I am making the blocks now for my mill. Frank has a whole lot of info on the 1228 that will be the same as yours.

On the lathe, there are plenty of people who mount on mobile stands or tool boxes. There are a zillion articles and videos on how to mount and level a lathe.  Bottom line is if you only work on small items you can get by with it. On longer items you start to get  taper and bad cuts.  A lathe must be straight/level/plumb across the bed to be accurate.  With that in mind, I placed the lathe on wood blocks and shimmed it until a Starret 98-6 level said good.  The lathe can always be moved later if needed.  Your space and money will dictate your choices as did mine. 

Building a drop down stand as suggested above is an alternative. Again if you are working a long piece you will have to re level after moving.

Good luck and hope you enjoy you new machines!!!   Charles


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## BGHansen (Sep 8, 2019)

I had a Grizzly mill drill mounted on casters and never had a problem with accuracy.  Mine was set on a piece of 1/2" plate steel that was bolted to an angle iron frame.  The base had 1/2"-13 nuts welded to it in the corners with carriage bolts running to the floor.  Pretty simple to crank up on the carriage bolts, roll it around, and run the bolts back down to take the weight off the casters.

No experience with a lathe on casters.  I have moved them with an engine hoist or gantry crane a number of times.  I check level after a move, then again in a week or so.  If you were on casters and had leveling feet, seems like it'd be the same gig.  If your work was within a few inches of the head stock, any twist in the bed would be pretty minimal, depends on the accuracy you are looking for.

Bruce


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## benmychree (Sep 8, 2019)

Twist in a lathe bed also effects how the carriage bears on the ways, it would tend to wear unevenly, not a good thing!  For small lathes that are mounted to a bench on three points, this is not a problem, but lathes with four or more mounting points it is a problem,  ideally lathes with four or more mounting points should be bolted to the floor and carefully leveled crosswise if mounted on four points, and leveled on both lengthwise and crosswise if more than four points to avoid a droop or hump in the middle of the bed.  Also, a Starrett # 98 level is nowhere near sensitive enough for precision machinery leveling, being graduated in .005" per foot per graduation.  Levels for precision leveling are graduated .0005" per foot, or even finer.  A better approach for small lathes mounted on four points might be use of the two collar method of eliminating taper.


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## C-Bag (Sep 8, 2019)

I also work out of a two car garage and do machining, welding, grinding, powdercoating, metal forming and a little woodworking in the same space. I keep my RF30 mill/drill, 9x20 lathe and Atlas 7b shaper covered when not in use. The lathe and my surface plate are the only things that are not on castors in the whole shop and with that small of a space with that much machinery just about everything needs to move when different processes are going on. And the things that don't move are the hardest to clean around and under. Any inacuracies with lathe, mill, and shaper were not due to being moved in my experience. They were from mis adjustment, bad QC, wear and lack of experience. And all have gotten better with time and experience. YMMV.


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## wrmiller (Sep 8, 2019)

When I had my small lathe and mill, I had them mounted on 40" roll around toolboxes. I reinforced the tops to help alleviate twist, but my machines worked just fine. I did make some screwjacks to make the toolboxes more stable though. 

I even have wheels on my PM935 mill. But it sits on the levelers when running. No wheels on my bigger (1340) lathe though.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 8, 2019)

Setting up a mill on casters, or free standing for that matter, can present a danger of tipping if the table is moved to an extreme position.This is particularly a problem with smaller bench type mills.  The design should be checked for that possibility.  I would check by moving the table to the extreme position and carefully add my body weight.  If I sensed that the mill was starting to tilt, I would consider the design unsafe.

One solution is to place the casters on outriggers to increase the size of the footprint.   Another would be to add some ballast to the base.


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## C-Bag (Sep 8, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> Setting up a mill on casters, or free standing for that matter, can present a danger of tipping if the table is moved to an extreme position.This is particularly a problem with smaller bench type mills.  The design should be checked for that possibility.  I would check by moving the table to the extreme position and carefully add my body weight.  If I sensed that the mill was starting to tilt, I would consider the design unsafe.
> 
> One solution is to place the casters on outriggers to increase the size of the footprint.   Another would be to add some ballast to the base.


+1. The table my mill came with was heavy duty(all 1.5 square tube w/1/4" steel top) and was the width of the mill table, NOT the base. I thought it overkill at the time but now I realize it makes total sense. The mill table dictates the footprint, not the base. So it makes for a totally stable base for castors with no possibility of tipping in any direction. Also makes for a good top under the side of the mill table for tools etc and big enough for a toolbox with drawer under it. I don't often move the mill but when I need to I'm so glad it's on castors or I'd be getting out the engine hoist otherwise. The castors I got are from medical equipment and use a square tube mount and were easy to make levelers.


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## ACHiPo (Sep 8, 2019)

Absolutely I would and I did.


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## B2 (Sep 8, 2019)

Hi,

I purchased a bigger mill PM 940M CNC VS with stand and put it all on locking casters.  The casters are actually mounted to 3/8" thick steel plates which together form a dolly.   Since, I was putting the Mill in my basement area and had a tight fit I made the dolly to move the mill.  I then took it off the dolly amd mounted the dolly to the base before lifting the mill onto the base.    I also block the wheels, but it is be better to lift the mill slightly off the wheels and block it to the floor.  On the casters it vibrates slightly during heavy milling load but this is probably because without blocks it is not quite level and the wheels do not touch the floor equally. Also, I had move the control cabinet from the back to the side so it could be opened from the front and this creates a bit of a lever arm load on the mill.  Nevertheless, the mill is heavy enough to handle this.  The control electronics and box are heavy.....maybe/almost 200#s.   However, I have not found the mill to walk around during operation.  I designed the dolly plates to fit and bolt to the mill base (drilled holes and tapped into the base) after the wheels were bolted to the plates... and this still allow me room to slide my auto floor jack under each end to lift it slightly for the blocking.  Here is an early picture of the installation.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/attachments/pm940m-cnc-front-i520-jpg.274812/ 

The machine is heavy, as are the base, the 6"  mill vise (~90#s) and the dolly (~95#s) .  This weight may make the machine more stable!?

I found the additional height to actually be comfortable to work at.  The casters and dolly plates added about 6 to 7 inches to the
height of the work surface.   I also found that the cast base material is not the greatest stuff for tapping.  I used 1/4-20 and found that it worked better if the tap holes are undersized.  

Good luck.  

Dave


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## mattthemuppet2 (Sep 8, 2019)

I don't see the problem if the bases are wide enough or the casters are far enough out that the machines can't tip if one of the casters rotates under the base or an unexpected load occurs. For machines that size I doubt bolting the base to the floor will increase rigidity or accuracy enough to notice above simply bolting them to a stout base. I would suggest locking casters at a minimum and consider easily settable jacks that will lift the bases off the casters if the machine will be in place for any length of time.

To the OP - one thing to do with your limited space is to forget how it looks now and to make up some plans with a blank sheet. Where can you get stuff off the ground and up on the walls (eg. bikes, lesser used tooling)? Where can you nest tools? eg. I have 3 bikes up on hooks on my garage wall, with a 4x6 bandsaw between 2 of them and a 3t arbor press on a stand between the other two. One of my girls bikes fits between the legs of the arbor press stand. My 10t hydraulic press (less frequently used) is behind one of the other bikes on the floor. The band saw is on wheels so I can move it out if I need more space. A welding table will take up alot of space for sure, so no great ideas for that one, but you can probably fit alot of stuff underneath it (some of those welding carts?). What does the space look like? Mine is 1/2 of a 2 car garage with a car in the other half, so all of my gear is in a square C shape along the outside walls with a bike work space in the center.


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## silence dogood (Sep 8, 2019)

I have very limited space in my shop. Even though I have 8" lathe and a mini mill, both of these machines are on casters.  Both benches are made very rigid with thick braced tops that should eliminate twist.  If these rigid benches are on an uneven floor, they will rock.  When I move the bench around, I lock the casters and put a shim under the free caster.  I've been looking into self leveling casters (just casters with springs) that I could make.  Or make a walking beam suspension on the tailstock end, that way it would be a three point with a four point support.  The legs of the bench also lean out especially the width.  Adding weight such as tooling will help in keeping the center of gravity low.


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## C-Bag (Sep 8, 2019)

I picked up a 5gal bucket of these castors in a yard sale. They are used in med equipment and the guy said he got them off of equipment they were scrapping at a hospital. They looked brand new. As first I was baffled by the mount but it turned out to be easier than the usual bolt on as they plug right into 1 1/4" thin wall square tube. I then took some 1" bar stock and bored it 1/2" and welded that above the square tube. Ran a piece of 1/2" all thread though it with a nut and that's my height adjuster. I can get it dead level and no matter how long the whole thing sits the wheels don't seem to get flat spots. Got them on almost everything.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 8, 2019)

i have one lathe on casters, a Shenwai 1236. (and i'd do it again if the need raised)

consider this point naysayers....
almost every naval vessel over 100 feet in length, will undoubtedly have a fully functional machine shop on board.
the machines are never level when underway.

can anyone tell me how the navy machinists can make just as accurate part when underway, as you can on your perfectly leveled lathe or mill to .0005"????

the naval machining must be magic, or, possibly too much emphasis is put onto esoteric gymnastics.

the latter appears true, in my pee brain


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## hman (Sep 8, 2019)

I've put several tools, including a 9x20 lathe, on a retractable caster system I came up with several years ago.  Never did like the idea of the tool being able to roll when in use, so I retract the casters and let it sit on its feet.  The casters are on a hinged plate, reinforced along the front edge to keep it straight and level.  The "knee action" lift bar makes use of the two flat mating surfaces to maintain rigidity during while you're moving the tool around.  Note that the lower pivot needs to flex in two directions (lift arm swing and caster plate tilt).

I've used this system with tools weighing up to 350 pounds and never had any problems.  By positioning the pivot point of the knee action and the length of the lifting arm, you can design in the necessary leverage (within limits).

See also posts #18 and #23 at https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/bench-for-a-sb-9.63058/#post-608469


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## C-Bag (Sep 8, 2019)

Very cool hman. Took me second to grok the whole thing as my eye got distracted by the wooden structure behind the lathe. I love those over center type mechanisms. Impressive.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Sep 8, 2019)

that's clever hman!

I made a rolling base for my 6x26 mill with levelling feet. Partly to raise it up a bit but also so I could move it more easily when needed. Push it into place carefully, then screw the levelling feet out until the casters are off the floor and the mill is more or less level. Wouldn't want to do it on a daily basis as it's a bit of a hassle, but makes rearranging the shop alot easier.


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## erikmannie (Sep 9, 2019)

Wow! I am surprised how many replies I got in less than 24 hours. This really is a friendly and helpful forum! I just found out that the PM-1030V with DRO is back ordered 10-12 weeks! The PM-1030V without DRO is available now. I will stick to my original plan and wait patiently. Like I said, my machining classes aren't until Oct-Dec of this year anyway. I had hoped to rent an engine hoist just once, but I guess that I will have to do the rigging on two separate occasions.

     After paying $7,500 for the two PM orders (all of the money borrowed), I am actually too broke to buy casters at this point. My mill arrives in 2 weeks, so I will have time to mull over all of your informative responses (which I greatly appreciate).

     A friend and I worked on a project this weekend which was a bicycle frame modification. With no mill or lathe in the shop, we did have enough room to work. Five of the eight (earlier reported to be _seven_ total welding carts) of the welding carts were rolled into the side yard. I will try to upload pictures taken at the midpoint of the operation in the next post.

     Just for fun, my eight welding carts are (1) Dynasty 210DX for TIG, AC stick welding jobs, E6010 or stick welding applications that call for adjustable arc force, (2) Millermatic 252 with .035" solid wire and C25 shielding gas, (3) Miller Thunderbolt 210 for all DC stick welding _except_ E6010 (this machine does not run E6010), (4) Dual cylinder gas welding cart with medium and heavy duty torches as well as cutting torch, (5) currently inoperable Lincoln IdealArc 250 which was gifted to me and needs a cosmetic makeover (future project which includes painting it blue and slapping Miller badging on it--ouch!) for AC stick, E6010 and jobs that require over 210A, (6) TIG accessory cart for purge box, filler rod, TIG fingers, TIG pens and tungsten sharpener, and (7) PPE cart for gloves, welding helmets, respirators, and shading lenses. Seven of the carts have hangers for steel brushes as well as trays for a gas cylinder, so I have my spare C25, Argon and Oxygen cylinders on my stick, TIG accessory and PPE carts respectively. All of my cylinders except for the acetylene are only 80 cubic feet, so they don't last long. I am not so happy with these small cylinders, but this is about all that I can lift without worrying about my back. I need to have a healthy back for my day job. I store my filler rod on the gas and TIG accessory cart, and my stick electrodes live on the stick welding cart; as such, these carts are heavy. I spend a lot of time rolling these carts around. 

     I will be reading a lot of this forum every night. My neighbor across the street has asked me to cease operations at 9 PM.


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## hman (Sep 9, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Very cool hman. Took me second to grok the whole thing as my eye got distracted by the wooden structure behind the lathe. I love those over center type mechanisms. Impressive.


Thank you!  As for the structure, at the time I took the photos, it was still a work in progress.  Eventually added en E-stop, some tool holder racks, and a fluorescent light.  Here's a shot of the lathe from March of this year, when I sold it.


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## erikmannie (Sep 9, 2019)

I forgot to say that we had to move two bikes out of the garage in order to make room to work. It is going to be tight quarters with a mill and lathe.

I am planning to put the mill and lathe in the area where you see the hydraulic press and blue bench vise/full face helmet.

Looks like the max file size is 2MB.


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## hman (Sep 9, 2019)

Looks like mobility is the wqy to go for you!  I like your tool rack ... plus what looks like a handful of awards above the work bench.


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## erikmannie (Sep 9, 2019)

hman said:


> Looks like mobility is the wqy to go for you!  I like your tool rack ... plus what looks like a handful of awards above the work bench.


I have never won any awards; those are certificates of completion for taking short courses.

The mill and lathe, however, will be awarded whatever locations are best for the machines. I won't move the two water heaters (hidden behind the racks of bicycle parts) or the repair stand, bicycle ground anchors and tube bender which are bolted to the floor.

Are these machines hard wired or plugged in? They are both 110V.

I would be excited to move the mill and lathe every six months to paint the walls. I understand that one needs to allow access to the electrical panel of the headstock on the mill; I wonder how many inches from the wall. Maybe this would also be enough to room to paint the wall behind it. Maybe I could also leave that much room behind the mill to paint the wall and sweep the floor.

The bicycle wheels on the wall are in the way of putting a bench or welding table over there. Once the benches and welding table are on casters, this problem would be solved. Those motors need to be kept bone dry so they can't go in a shed.

I am starting to realize that I will be forced to use casters to provide myself a place to stand while I work at the machines.


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## erikmannie (Sep 9, 2019)

So I have 100% decided to choose mobility. I will be looking at the help above and choose something rigid and able to be made level.


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## mikey (Sep 9, 2019)

Have a look at the Carrymaster line of leveling casters. Not sure how much your machines weigh but I usually double the weight of the machine and buy casters with that capacity. For example, if the lathe plus stand weigh 500# then I would choose casters that handle about 1200# per set of 4 casters. For Carrymaster, that would be their AC-300 line (300# capacity per caster). If you can, use the plate type with the four holes as it is more stable. The stem type with a smaller top platform and one central stud works well, too, but the top bearing surface is smaller. 

Similar brands, like Foot Master, are okay but I have used them and find that the Carrymaster brand is more solidly made. When you lower the leveling foot on these casters, this raises the wheel completely off the ground. Being able to raise each corner makes leveling very fast and easy. When you need to move your machine, just raise the leveling foot until the casters contact the ground and you're rolling. 

My RF-31 mill weighs somewhere near 800# with the stand. It is on four AC-300 casters (what I had on hand at the time) and I can roll it around with one finger, honest. When it is sited and off the casters it is as stable and solid as I could want, with zero movement. You would think that having it up on a foot would allow for excessive vibration but there is none that I would attribute to the casters. I have since obtained some AC-600's with 2400# capacity but the current casters work so well that I don't plan on switching them. 

Anyway, have a look. They sound like they would suit your mobility needs.


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## Flyinfool (Sep 9, 2019)

Ulma Doctor said:


> consider this point naysayers....
> almost every naval vessel over 100 feet in length, will undoubtedly have a fully functional machine shop on board.
> the machines are never level when underway.
> 
> ...



It is not the "level" of the machine that matters. The machine being "level" just makes certain setups easier. What IS important is the machine be solid and square. The machines in the shop on a navel vessel are mounted very solidly to the floor so that they have no twist or flex happening. This also keeps them from flying around in heavy seas. That is what is ultimately important. It is just easier to get it right at level than by other means. This just means that those sailors have to work a bit harder to get the machine initially set up, and may also have to work a bit harder to do setups for individual parts.

Erik, this will also apply to you. As long as your base is solid enough to not allow flexing you will have no problem with mobile machines. You will just have to work a bit harder to square up a part while doing a setup since using a level will not be an option. Yes it can be done. But mobile just means that it will not be level (because garage floors are never level) which does not really matter to the function of the machine.


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## francist (Sep 9, 2019)

Nice bicycle shop. Love that vertical tool rack -- very nice 

-frank


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## wrmiller (Sep 9, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> It is not the "level" of the machine that matters. The machine being "level" just makes certain setups easier. What IS important is the machine be solid and square. The machines in the shop on a navel vessel are mounted very solidly to the floor so that they have no twist or flex happening. This also keeps them from flying around in heavy seas. That is what is ultimately important. It is just easier to get it right at level than by other means. This just means that those sailors have to work a bit harder to get the machine initially set up, and may also have to work a bit harder to do setups for individual parts.
> 
> Erik, this will also apply to you. As long as your base is solid enough to not allow flexing you will have no problem with mobile machines. You will just have to work a bit harder to square up a part while doing a setup since using a level will not be an option. Yes it can be done. But mobile just means that it will not be level (because garage floors are never level) which does not really matter to the function of the machine.



I'm curious as to what setups are easier if the lathe is level?


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## Flyinfool (Sep 9, 2019)

wrmiller said:


> I'm curious as to what setups are easier if the lathe is level?



Checking oil levels in the sight glass(s).
I sometimes use a level on my chuck jaws to index a part because it is faster than indicating the part.
These are just the first 2 off the top of my head.

I often use a level while setting things up on the milling machine just because it is faster than indicating it in with a dial indicator.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Sep 9, 2019)

I've got to say that there's an _awful_ lot of room in that work shop, especially on the walls and ceiling. I have less than half that space and have twice the amount of machinery. It really is worth starting with as blank a slate as possible - if you look at the set up as it is, all you will see is the set up as it is, not what it can be.


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## pontiac428 (Sep 9, 2019)

All those blue Park tools... mmm...  Organized.


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## erikmannie (Sep 11, 2019)

francist said:


> Nice bicycle shop. Love that vertical tool rack -- very nice
> 
> -frank


My family let me have the whole garage for myself, _*but*_ there were two large water heaters in it! The vertical tool racks cover these water heaters. They are pegboard mounted on 1" steel square tubing frames with locking casters.

Precision Matthews charged my credit card for 20% of the lathe/stand/tools order which is back ordered until December. My wife wasn't too pleased that I spent $4,000 without asking her.

I will post pictures of my locking caster/rigid solution which will hopefully be nearly 100% level.


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## Dabbler (Sep 11, 2019)

mill on casters, no brainer, go for it!!!  lathe on casters, no-go.  It is extremely easy to set up lathe skates that can move your lathe when you need to - I built mine in a weekend.

Let me explain:

The *mill *is inherently self-stable.as long as it isn't rocking while you use it, such that you might pinch your toes, nothing changes in machine operation for a floor standing mill.  Even a bench standing mill won't suffer much from having a slightly unstable bench.  Yes, your base has to be stable enough so it won't tip over - we are all responsible adults here.

No for a *lathe *- I differ because not only is the base used to support and straighten the bed, but is a vital part of vibration dampening, which will show up in both cut quality and accuracy ( unless you make only parts that are very tiny -- OR make parts to wide open tolerances) I tend to think of accuracy in terms of tenths of a thousandth of an inch. It is harder to learn cut speeds and feed rates if you also have to take extra vibration into account. Both my lathes have a nut on the top and bottom of the contact area of the lathe in order to make the levelling feet solid. One of my mentors was a Naval Machinist - Ships with lathes have the lathes bolted to a floor that is usually over 1" thick steel: you could operate a lathe at a 45 degree angle and get great accuracy on those machines... all the support andvibration dampening goes to the bigger structure. (and they normally don't mcahine under way).

On *lathe skates*, If you have a welder, they can be whipped up quickly, and if you don't bolt together version are also good for lathes in the <2000 lbs category.  My skates can handle up to a 5500 lb lathe with normal headstock weight distribution...  Nice thing is that they can be made if/when you need to move the lathe.

My small lathe has a boltable pair of wheels to move it, and i just move the carriage toward the headstock and pick up the tailstock end and drive it around like a wheelbarrow.

For mobility on the mill, I made my base wide enough for my pallet jack, which can move anything in my shop except my big lathe.

I'll send you pictures if interested...


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## Karl_T (Sep 11, 2019)

I have the same problem - two lbs. of stuff in a one lb. space.

I have several machines mounted to a steel plate with riser blocks, enough to get a hand pallet truck under it. To work - I take the better half's car out of the garage, then use  the pallet jack to wheel out the machine of the moment. when done, it all gets stuffed back in the corners. then put her car back.

This is FAR more sturdy than casters. less expensive, too.  Anyway, that's my solution to this all too common problem.


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## brino (Sep 11, 2019)

Karl_T said:


> To work - I take the better half's car out of the garage, then use the pallet jack to wheel out the machine of the moment. when done, it all gets stuffed back in the corners. then put her car back.



That would sure make it tough to run out for a quick resize of something.
It would probably make me save up jobs until some threshold was reached, then do all the mill jobs at once.
But you gotta do what you gotta do!
I would rather do that than not have some of the machines.
-brino


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## gaston (Sep 12, 2019)

I had work  tables,, welding carts and a small lathe on wheels. I got tired of chasing them across the shop so the wheels came off all but the welding carts.  my shop is layed out the way I like it with mills and lathes, drill presses and grinders etc in their work space so they dont move . anything that needs to go to the job site ( cars, welding project, repair of some kind) has wheels


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## Aaron_W (Sep 13, 2019)

I am far from experienced, and honestly everything I know about from machining comes from people on this site, and a little from youtube.

One thing I will say that is counter to the general consensus on lathe / mill mobility is the size of the machine matters.

Many of the members here have large, very capable machines worthy of commercial use where a firm footing is very important. What I have been told is with "smaller" machines this is less critical since they are not nearly as subject to twisting under their own weight. A small lathe like my Sherline or an Atlas 6" are basically designed to be portable and be used on a table or workbench and being relatively lightweight they incorporate a solid frame into their design since they are not expected to be firmly mounted and precisely leveled, but are still expected to produce accurate work.

It is impractical to carry around larger lathes, so their design assumes a solid footing, including a solid frame to reduce twisting on a 1500lb lathe would probably double to triple the weight.

Where a PM1030 falls on this scale, I can't say. I have a 10" Logan / Powermatic and it is clearly designed to be fixed in place and leveled so following the advice I've received that is what I did. My Logan is an underdrive with an integral cabinet and the whole thing weighs 900lbs, the PM 10" lathes are designed as benchtop lathes that weigh less than 300lbs so it is not a clear apples to apples comparison. 


Welcome to the site, I've heard good things about the SRJC Machining program, and have thought about going to it next year after I complete the series of welding classes at Mendocino.


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## erikmannie (Sep 17, 2019)

My neighbor across the street went through both the welding and machining programs at the SRJC. He seems to have received a great education.

In a few years, I will have enough seniority at my job to take an early morning shift so that I can go back to college (which will be machining classes at the SRJC) after a 25 year hiatus.

I have been attending vocational schools that one can go to for short classes (1-30 days). I have to save up all year and use all my vacations to do it, but these classes have greatly helped me.

I am a UPS driver, and I got YouTube Premium. I download YouTube instructional videos & listen to those about 10 hours a day on a Bluetooth speaker.

Unfortunately, 50-60 hours a week doesn’t leave me much time or energy to work in my garage/shop. Sometimes it is only on Sundays. If I have a 8-9 hour day at work, I can get in a few hours in the evening.

My favorite thing is working in the shop with a buddy. That is always a great time.

Sounds like we might see each other in the machining classes at the SRJC. My name is my user ID.


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## erikmannie (Sep 17, 2019)

I placed the order for the PM-25MV mill on August 31 and  they said I can expect it about a month after that. The DRO installation added time.

I won’t get the PM-1030V lathe until December because it was back ordered.

This is all fine because I am still wiped out financially from those two purchases.  When I get some money, I can buy some casters and steel.

Working in the shop the last two Sundays with a buddy, I see that I need casters everywhere that I can put them.


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## erikmannie (Sep 18, 2019)

I had been waiting patiently for an email from Precision Matthews with a tracking number, but yesterday I was pleasantly surprised with a phone call from a trucking company saying that the 400 pound pallet was at the local depot.

I rearranged my work schedule so that I can be here the first half of the day for the freight delivery.  I hope the truck driver is kind enough to move the pallet up into my garage. It is a short distance, but there is a slight incline in the driveway.

I will post pictures here of the bottom of the PM  base. I will definitely be putting the mill on casters.


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## Illinoyance (Sep 18, 2019)

YES.  Both a lathe and a mill.


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 19, 2019)

Flyinfool said:


> It is not the "level" of the machine that matters. The machine being "level" just makes certain setups easier. What IS important is the machine be solid and square. The machines in the shop on a navel vessel are mounted very solidly to the floor so that they have no twist or flex happening. This also keeps them from flying around in heavy seas. That is what is ultimately important. It is just easier to get it right at level than by other means. This just means that those sailors have to work a bit harder to get the machine initially set up, and may also have to work a bit harder to do setups for individual parts.
> 
> Erik, this will also apply to you. As long as your base is solid enough to not allow flexing you will have no problem with mobile machines. You will just have to work a bit harder to square up a part while doing a setup since using a level will not be an option. Yes it can be done. But mobile just means that it will not be level (because garage floors are never level) which does not really matter to the function of the machine.


All very true, I spent most of my working life as an engineer on cargo ships. all of them had very well equipped machine shops, some better than others, but all pretty good. the deck (floor) in the machine shop was very rigid, and each machine was mounted on it's own very rigid subframe that was fixed to the floor in away that if the floor did flex the subframe did not. 

Now consider that any point on a ship can be be flat and square at numerous times, but never constantly. much in the same way that a clock that does not run will be correct twice a day.

The machines will almost never be flat and square like on steady ground, what is important is that they are square within themselves. The bed must be straight without twist or bend. The line between centres must be true and straight and parallel to the bed. At the same time time the machine might be tilted 35 to 40 degrees from flat as per a spirit level. 

One ship I worked on for two years Used to roll 36 deg from port to stbd and back again every six seconds. this ship was so bad we used to joke that it would roll on wet grass. It never stopped me from doing quality machining. A ships machinist soon learns to avoid doing certain operations under certain conditions such as don't do critical finishing cuts while the ship is bouncing around. You will always get a better finish when the ship is fully loaded in a calm sea, and many others.

It is generally considered that a lathe should be mounted so as to be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the ship. And most of those that I have seen and worked on were. But some were not and it made very little difference.

My last ship before I retired was 300M long and carried 136,000 tonnes of crude oil. considerably heavier, but slightly shorter that the largest aircraft carriers ever built. The workshop on that ship was well equipped with a decent lathe, combination mill, vert, and horizontal. A shaper and good sized drill with X Y table and power spindle feed . Also 3 ph welding set and full oxy acetylene gear. It was a rare day when at least one of these machines was not being used, and we always managed to turn out good quality precision work.


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## C-Bag (Sep 19, 2019)

Facinating Bob. I was surprised there was a shaper as part of the equipment as they have been seen as obsolete by most. Is it possible to give an overview of some of the projects you made? I have no reference at all what you would make for a ship.


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 20, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Facinating Bob. I was surprised there was a shaper as part of the equipment as they have been seen as obsolete by most. Is it possible to give an overview of some of the projects you made? I have no reference at all what you would make for a ship.



Thanks, Yes the shaper was rare, it was the only ship in my whole career that had one. it was part of a composite machine An all in one. A lathe, I forget the exact dimensions but around 14" x 36" with gap which increased the swing to about 20" from about 6" from the face plate, but very useful and all the usual extras, including a very good tool post grinder. I was very strict about using it.

Mounted outboard of the headstock was a combination mill, horizontal spindle with overarm support, we could remove the spindle and support and crank out a vertical spindle head. The table was mounted on a knee, which could be cranked right down low and open a cover and out came a shaper ram. the mill was only of modest size and the shaper quite small, but none the less very useful. It saved a lot of filing. the shaper was mainly only used for internal keyways and a few other similar jobs. The mill was also used for keyways and splines, gear repairs, which were a lot of fun because we didn't have divider head or anything similar.

We also did a lot of repair work on pump shafts and impellers. we had dozens of pumps most of them centrifugal and ranging from about 5HP up to 100HP. These larger ones would just fit onto the lathe and sopin in the gap, normally would have them mounted on their own shaft and run between centers so they were running true without complex setup. The main job here was to machine off the worn out wear rings and fit new ones. Many other jobs, including repair damaged bolts big cylinder head studs 90mm dia.

Also make new special tools, As I had originally trained as a tool maker I often saw that I could make a special tool that would make our life easier.

I think the most challenging job I ever had was to make a new spool for a hydraulic spool valve. The valve was mounted out on deck an was used to control a deck crane. the sea water had got to it and caused the chrome to peel off the spool which made it useless. I said I would make a new one, the other engineers fell about laughing knowing that it had to be finished to a tolerance of about 2 tenths of a thou. perfectly round and parallel for its length. The spool was 80mm in dia. and about 700mm long. They said it couldn't be done had to be chrome plated and precision ground. I agreed that would be ideal, but we can't do that, I also said to them that quite clearly they didn't think they could do it. But don't think for a minute that I can't. (me and my big mouth) I now had to do it and prove to them that I could I did it. It took a while. I used a piece of an old head bolt that was damaged beyond repair, they were a special high tensile steel the at machined beautifully. I spun it between centers. Taking it down slowly and getting any taper out of the setup, at about 0.02to finish I changed the tool to HSS and slowed the lathe down to just under 100RPM. From about 0.0005 oversize I took it down with fine emery cloth. I'd had a couple of other guys dismount the valve body and bring it down to the workshop, so I could trial fit it, eventually got it to just fit and we reassembled it back on deck. It worked perfectly. The other guys weren't happy, I had showed them up I just told them as long as they think they can't do something they'll never learn to be any better. I think two of them got it but the other two never did.

BTW shapers are not obsolete, they are very useful try making an internal keyway or spline on a mill. People who have never used one just don't appreciate how useful they are.
Thanks for asking.


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## C-Bag (Sep 20, 2019)

Thanks for sharing Bob. Great overview and story. Would have loved to see pics of the combo machine you describe. I get a vague idea but it sounds like a very unusual machine/setup. 

Very often I took it upon my self to make a tool to be able do some job that kept coming up that either the shop didn't have a tool for or there never was one made for it. Not until I got out of car repair and got in fruit packing did I have access to actual machine tools like lathe and mill. So my early stuff was often modding an existing tool. One such was while at the Nissan dealership we kept getting jobs to service the wheel bearings on a front wheel drive car. Unlike other makes it could be pressed apart and not damage the bearings but was impossible to put in a hydraulic press because of the shape of the steering knuckle. So I made a couple of pieces that would attach to the steering knuckle that made it so I could mount my SnapOn puller and push it apart. Then the press could be used to press it back together once the bearings were packed again. So even now most of my projects are just the right size for my smaller equipment. I finally have a project that I wish I had a larger lathe not for diameter but for length and thru hole.


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 21, 2019)

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of that combo lathe, and it was the only one I have ever seen that was of that size, and with the mill being outboard of the headstock. I suspect it might have been a special model built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, for use on ships. It was ideally suited for shipboard use the ship was built by them in Japan, and just about everything in it was also built by Mitsubishi. 

I have spent a bit of time googling mitsubishi lathes and various other questions, but cant find an answer.


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## erikmannie (Oct 2, 2019)

Here is how it ended up. Like I said, I used two 1/2" anchor bolts at the bottom of the PM stand. I left plenty of room to walk behind the mill and I store my welding carts back there.

The power feed added some width in the x axis, which I had planned for.

So the mill has plenty of room. This came at a cost of moving one of my work benches outside. I wanted to take my grinding outside anyway.

As it is installed, the milling machine vibrates a great deal while in use. I may upgrade to *four* 1/2" anchor bolts later.


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