# Switch wiring - Jet 8 X 18 mill



## yellow_cad

I have a Chinese lathe/mill combo (Jet 8X18) made in the 1980s.  It calls for capacitors in the start switch system for both of the single phase motors.  For the lathe, it calls for capacitance of 25 mf for 110V and 12mf for 220V.  The capacitor that was in the lathe circuit when I got it look like the original (due to the hook up) and was rated 20mf and W.V. 250 VAC.  First of all, would a 250V capaitor work if the lathe is hooked up 110V?  Secondly, this is more mf (20 vs 12) than specified.  Is it OK to have more mf just not less?  Thirdly, no where in the specifications does the mfg. state whether the capacitors are start, run, or start/run.  Which type would be appropriate in this situation?  Thanks for any input.  Jim


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## Tony Wells

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Working voltage ratings on capacitors are just a safety margin that lets you know if the insulation they are built with will withstand the needed voltage. Within reasonable limits, you can exceed the minimum voltage requirements with no ill effects. Never go under on WV, however. Bad things can and probably will happen. 

On the capacity, the mfd rating is related to a time constant that tells us how long the capacitor will take to "charge", similar to a battery. They discharge when the AC current reverses polarity at 60 cycles. The higher the capacity (mfd) the longer this cycle is. In general, the tolerances on this type of capacitor are fairly generous, so I wouldn't be afraid to sub the 20 for the 12 if I couldn't get a 12 easily. I probably would get a 12 mfd and swap as I could, but I wouldn't hesitate to run it for a while. Just keep check on how the motor sounds, and whether is seems hot. I think you'll be OK with the sub though.


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Tony Wells said:


> Working voltage ratings on capacitors are just a safety margin that lets you know if the insulation they are built with will withstand the needed voltage. Within reasonable limits, you can exceed the minimum voltage requirements with no ill effects. Never go under on WV, however. Bad things can and probably will happen.
> 
> On the capacity, the mfd rating is related to a time constant that tells us how long the capacitor will take to "charge", similar to a battery. They discharge when the AC current reverses polarity at 60 cycles. The higher the capacity (mfd) the longer this cycle is. In general, the tolerances on this type of capacitor are fairly generous, so I wouldn't be afraid to sub the 20 for the 12 if I couldn't get a 12 easily. I probably would get a 12 mfd and swap as I could, but I wouldn't hesitate to run it for a while. Just keep check on how the motor sounds, and whether is seems hot. I think you'll be OK with the sub though.



Thanks for the response Tony.  Do you have any thoughts on the type of capacitor (start, run, start/run)?  My primary problem is that the lathe two speed motor will only run in the low speed range.  Since higher speeds require more starting power, I thought that the capacitors might be my problem since I have replaced both and never seemed to get a clear indication of what type I should use.  The originals were physically two or three times bigger than the replacements but I guess that doesn't matter.


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## Tony Wells

*Re: Capacitor questions*

There are differences in the two types. Start capacitors only function for a short time while the motor spins up. Capacitors conduct only while they are charging, then they "switch off" and cease to conduct, rendering whatever winding used to start the motor offline. The size (in mfd) determines how long the start winding stays energized. Usually just for a few seconds, then the motor is spinning the right direction and the cap shuts off the start winding. These are common non polarized electrolytic capacitors. Start capacitors you will see rated plainly at the operating voltage of the motor. And as mentioned, more voltage is OK. So, if you find a proper sized capacitor, but the voltage can be more. You have a 110 volt system, but you can use 240 or more rated capacitors.

Run capacitors, on the other hand, are in the circuit constantly (hence the "run" name), and are built to withstand a continuous charge/discharge cycle and are usually oil filled. Common is an aluminum can for these, as opposed to the common round Bakelite case of a start capacitor. Typical for a 240 volt motor you will see a 370 volt rating on a run capacitor.

So, they are not interchangeable at all. This may well be your problem, and is worth replacing the capacitors to eliminate the possibility. They aren't that expensive. Unless you have a way to test them. Some supply houses do claim to be able to test capacitors, but in my experience, the testers they have only check the value, and not even that at the operating voltage (which is critical), and not to check the leakage (electrical leakage). IMO, best to replace them and know for sure.


Hope this helps.


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Is there such a thing as a start and run capacitor?  The type of capacitor that looked like it was original was like a larger tin can.  From that would I know that it was a run only capacitor?


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## Tony Wells

*Re: Capacitor questions*

There are multi-section can capacitors, so there is no real reason they couldn't be housed in the same container, but I can't say for certain without reading the markings and having a look. Usually because of the performance requirements, the cost would probably be prohibitive. I'd say manufacturer's discretion.


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## Rbeckett

*Re: Capacitor questions*



yellow_cad said:


> Is there such a thing as a start and run capacitor?  The type of capacitor that looked like it was original was like a larger tin can.  From that would I know that it was a run only capacitor?


Start and run caps on electric motors are commonly housed in the same can.  The only difference is the number of connections to the components inside.  I have seen common ground and 4 caps all housed in an oil filled can on some old military electronics  so anything is possible. But start/run caps are  commonly housed together on AC and  refidgeration gear all the time.
Bob


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> I'm back from Vacation!  Usually a single phase dual capicator motor will have 2 caps. (I have never seen this type motor with a dual cap. but it's possible) Why? I assume it's due to size. I guess they want to keep the size envelope as small as possible. Bob is right, when I worked for the Fedders Corp we used one dual cap. for start and run. Again it was done because the cap was never mounted on the compressor, it was attached to the frame and wired to the compressor.  Same for the fan motor in applications that used a cap. So I guess the answer to the question about using one start and run cap. is yes however the one dual purpose cap. is 2 caps. in one can so the correct answer is no. I remember having caps connected to fan motors at Fedders, I don't remember them having the disconnect switch to disconnect the cap. after the motor starts so I assume it's possible to have a single start/run cap. in very low torque fan type motors but can't be used in machine tool applications.
> Frank



This is a Taiwanese built lathe/mill combo.  The lathe has a 1 hp 2 speed motor and the mill has a1/4 hp single speed motor.  Both motors are 110 volt single phase.  The lathe uses a 25 mf capacitor and the mill uses a 10 mf.  Both of these capicitors are the tin can type.  I am trying to determine what the function of these capicitors is in these systems so I can understand if they are working as intended.  My only problem right now is that the 2 speed motor only wants to work on the low speed.  The capiciator for the lathe has been tested and it is working according to a motor shop using a small tester.


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## Benji

*Re: Capacitor questions*



> Capacitors conduct only while they are charging, then they "switch off" and cease to conduct, rendering whatever winding used to start the motor offline. The size (in mfd) determines how long the start winding stays energized.



While what Tony says is correct the function of a start capacitor is different. There is an AC (as opposed to DC) current flowing through the combination of the capacitor which is in series with the start winding and the start winding. This current is shifted in phase, by the capacitor, with the current flowing through the run winding. Shifted in phase means that the current reaches it maximum (and minimum) current points at a different time than the current in the run winding. Ideally (for maximum starting force) this time shift would be 1/4 cycle (90 degrees) The two currents with different phases cause a rotating field, The rotor follows the rotating field to get up to speed. Once it reaches some minimum RPM a switch cuts off the current flow in the capacitor/start winding circuit. The field is then generated only by the run winding. It does not rotate but alternates. The rotor has enough inertia to follow the alternating field and not get stuck at one point. It (almost) synchronizes with the field. If you tried to start a motor of this type without the capacitor the rotor would go to the nearest pole on the run winding and get stuck their. 

The start cap has an AC current flowing through it It charges and discharges at line frequency. The electrical size of the cap, in combination with the inductance of the start winding determines a phase shift.  You can never have more than 90 degrees shift from a single LC circuit (several in series will give you more). For motor starting the shift range is quite broad so a range of caps will work

A smaller cap will give more shift, but if the cap is resonant with the inductance (Xl = Xc) the net reactance would be zero and the current through the combination would be limited only by the start winding resistance. This is not a good thing from the stand point of circuit design so there is a limit to how small to make the cap. If its too big you dont get enough phase shift and the motor may not start. 


Hope I haven't muddied the waters too much.


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## Tony Wells

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Agreed. Benji. I just didn't want to get into the total explanation of phase shift and its effects. I stopped short of the full explanation.
Thank you for explaining it in plain language.


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Yellow_cad    Do you have one or 2 capicators on each motor or 1? Is the motor rated for 50Hz or 60Hz? The can type is not important though the can is a better Capicator construction shouldn't make a difference now. Simply put the capicator creates a phase change. I'm sure you have seen the typical sine wave similar to a backwards s on it side. That is the Voltage plotted to time. To shift the phase means that for any given interval in time the voltage is different, this diffrence is measured in degrees. So if I were to plot two same voltages that were 180 degress shifted it with look similar to an S and the backward S written in the same space and look like an 8 sideways. When a single phase motor is started it has no idea which way to spin so it usually don't. Spinning causes a counter emf (electro motive force) that's opposit to the input voltage and loweres the current. So if the motor doesn't rotate the winding will eventually burn up. To get the motor to start rotating a start winding is required because the coils get the change in voltage though oposite at exactly the same time the rotor does not know which was to turn. If you now plot the start voltage it would look like the sideways 8 with the side ways s starting in the middle of the o of the side ways 8. This shift will cause the rotor to move as it will be at max. when the others are at 0. In shaded pole motors a capicator is not required. In the capicator start motor a capicator is used to created the necessary phase change needed to get the motor to start, to change the direction the capitator is connected to the other side of the line. Though 115VAC motors use a Neutral the motor sees it as a power source and electically the two inputs are 180 degrees out of phase with each other the Capicators will cause a 90 degree shift in the start winding so that the motor will begin to rotate. In a single capicator motor the Capicator is switched off. Understand?
> To understand your motor I need more info. Can you post a connection diagram? Where the motor is made is not important unless it's 50Hz as many other countries use 50Hz not 60Hz. You can't compare a 1/4 Hp motor to a 1Hp 2 speed motor. When you say work at low speed, will it try to start at high. Have you tried to start it with any belts removed? Have you tried getting the motor spinning at low and switch to high fast while it's still spinning?
> Frank



Each motor has one capacitor and both motor plates state 60 Hz.  I have a PDF file of a short document that contains the wiring diagram and the connection diagram for the motors, switch, capacitors, and power.  The thing is, I'm not sure how to get that on a post.  I have looked all over the site and don't see a way to do it.


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



yellow_cad said:


> Each motor has one capacitor and both motor plates state 60 Hz.  I have a PDF file of a short document that contains the wiring diagram and the connection diagram for the motors, switch, capacitors, and power.  The thing is, I'm not sure how to get that on a post.  I have looked all over the site and don't see a way to do it.



MODEL 818 BENCH LATHE.pdf (1.43 MB)

Not sure, but maybe I got it uploaded.  It's pages 18 and 19 of the document.


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Was able to open the attached file. I see the motor connection, it's a connection diagram so I'll have to redraw it. What's the function of the switches? I assume the red button is not connected to a switch but re-sets all the others. I assume it's the "Off or Stop". There is 2 black buttons and a long black button plus a white button. Looks like the white button controls the mill motor. I'm thinking one small black button is high speed , the other low and the long black button is lathe motor "On or Start". Am I correct?
> Frank



Did you see both diagrams (pages 18 and 19)?  Page 18 is a wiring diagram and page 19 is a connection diagram.  The basics are that the red button turns both motors off.  The white turns the mill on and the two single blacks turn the lathe on either in forward or reverse.  Past that, I am only guessing since there were no instructions on switch operation.  It looks like you push a single black whether you want to go in forward or reverse while at the same time pushing the long (double) black button.  The switch will work this way but I don't get the desired results so maybe that is not how the switch is supposed to work.  I was hoping that someone would know how the switch was supposed to work (for two speed operation) by seeing the diagrams.  By pushing the forward or reverse single black button, the lathe is going correctly in the low speed mode.  My problem is getting the lathe to operate in the high speed mode.  When I push one single (f or r) while pushing the long black button, the lathe goes at about half of slow speed and the lathe motor soon starts to smoke.  Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

So I can understand exactly what you are saying, please give me your suggested procedure for pressing buttons to:

go forward low speed

go reverse low speed

go forward high speed

go reverse high speed

In the order above, I believe the procedure would be:

small black button

other small black button

small black button and large black button together

other small black button and large black button together

This is not to say that I am correct as it doesn't work but I can't think of any other combination to get the sequence.


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## jgedde

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Yello_cad Do you have 2 capicators or one? To start a single phase motor needs a start winding. The capicator provides the necessary phase shift so the motor will start in the intended direction. A switch is provided to shut off the start winding when the motor gets up to speed. If you have one capicator it's a start cap. If you have a 2 capicator motor then the smaller of the 2 is the run capicator and usually it's connected across the start speed switch. The theory being that if there is a winding used only for start and nothing while the motor is running why not get a little extra HP from it so they add the run cap. A dual capicator can be used for start and run. (simply put it's 2 capicators in one can) You say you have a dual voltage 2 speed motor, Unusual as most 2 speed motors are single voltage probably because of the number of wires it would require to make a 2 speed motor dual voltage. Not knowing what kind of motor you have makes it hard to determine why your motor will not start at High speed. Most dual speed develope the same torque on High or low speed. HP changes because HP is speed related. The faster the motor speed the more HP you will receive from the torque developed. I suspect your high speed start problem might be due a wiring error. Sorry I can't offer more help now as tomorrow I'm going on vacation!



Thanks Froneck.  I've been trying to figure out for a while why some TEFC motors have a second cap.  Despite research the answer eluded me....  Until now...

John


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, I do have a volt/ohm meter.

The lathe has specified high and low spindle speeds for each of the gear settings and with only the single black button (forward) pushed, my lathe spindle is traveling at the specified low speed in each gear setting.  The motor speeds are 1710 and 3420.

If you try to push down the double black button alone, it will not push down but with pressure on the double black button, it will go down as soon as one of the single black buttons is also pushed.  As part of the lathe, a spare switch was included.  I can see the notch that the double button sits on until it is released by the single button.

In the connection drawing, the double black button wiring seems to show that low speed wires connect towards the top and high speed connect toward the bottom.  My thought is that this might indicate that low speed would take place with the double button up and high speed when the double button is down.

Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> I think your right about the button position, Up is Low speed and Down High speed. Does the Red Button do anything to the Large Black Button?
> I don't understand the function of the notch preventing the pushing of the large button. On the spare switch when pushing one of the Small Black buttons and the Large Black button will the Large Black button remain down? If so will it reset when the Red button is pushed?  You said you can start in Forward and Reverse Low speed by simply pressing one of the Small Black buttons, am I correct? Have you tried pushing the Large Black button when the motor is running in Low speed?
> Can you use the Ohm meter and test the function of the Large Black button to see what contacts close when up and down? Try it on the spare switch first. Check to see that on the Small Black push buttons the associated contacts are open and close when pushed. Check the contact arrangement on the switches associated with the Large Black button. Check the motor to see if it a 2 speed 2 winding motor or 2 speed one winding motor.
> The prevention of pushing in the Large Black button seems like the arrangement wants to start on Low speed. Something that would indicate 2 speed 1 winding motor. Simply put a 2 speed 2 winding motor is like two motors in one housing. 2 speed 1 winding motor has the switches changing the pole connection from 2 pole (High) to 4 pole (Low)
> Frank



Yes, the large black button stays down and the small and large reset when the red is pushed.

Yes, low speed forward or reverse is gotten by pushing one or the other small black button.

On the spare switch, when one of the small black buttons is pushed (so motor would be running forward or reverse in slow speed) and then the large black button is pushed, the small black button that was pushed and is down, then immediately releases and comes up.

To check continuity, I placed the red lead (R) of the ohm meter on the terminal where the red power lead attaches and the black lead of the ohm meter on the terminal where the lathe motor black lead (Z) attaches.  My circuit is open.  When I push either small black button, my circuit closes.  When I push a small black button, my circuit closes but when I push the large black button, the circuit opens as soon as the small black button pops up (which is immediately).  But if I push the small black button and the large black button together, I get a closed circuit.

Am I checking the correct circuit?

I am not sure how to tell whether it is a 2 speed 2 winding motor or 2 speed one winding motor.


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> So what your saying is that if the motor were running in low speed and I pushed the Large Black Button the motor will stop because the the down Small Black button pops up. Then to attempt to push the Large Black button again you have to push both the Large and a Small button? Do both stay down?
> 
> There are too many current paths to check the input. I'm trying to understand the working of the switch. I do not care about the White button, Red has no contacts associated with it. I want to check the spare switch. Each Small Black button has 2 sets of contacts associated with it on each side. Red/Black test leads make no difference now. With the Small Black buttons up, put the test leads across  each pair. I'm assuming they are open or no continuity between them, check both sides. Push down a Small Black button and check again. Do this with the other Small Black button. Then proceed to the Large Black button. Test all 4 contacts button UP then DOWN. I'm guessing the slow speed will have closed switches and the High speed switch open when Large Black button is up and they reverse when the Large Black button is pushed down. Is there any way to keep the Large Black button down?
> 
> Frank


In checking the small black button contacts, I am checking two pair per side per switch and each pair is side by side.  All of these contacts (eight pairs for both small buttons) are open until the respective button is pushed and then they is closed.  Not to confuse things but this is what happened the first time I tested and now just one of the eight pairs remains open even with the small button pushed.  This may be why this is an extra switch.
In checking the large black button contacts, the low speed circuit is open until a small black button is pushed.  The high speed circuit is open until one small black button and the large black button are pushed together at which time the circuit closes.  If the small button is pushed and then the large button is pushed later, the small button pops up and the circuit remains open.

With one small button and the large button pushed down, there is a closed circuit as noted above but there are also lots of closed circuits between the high speed terminals and most but not all of the eight terminals (front and back) on the small buttons and this is not exclusive to the small button that is pushed.  A similar occurrence takes place with the low speed circuit and I can't seem to get a hard and fast pattern.

The only way to keep the large black button down is to press it and a small black button together and this gets a closed circuit.  The large black button will stay down physically if the small button is pressed first and then the large button is pushed and the small button pops up but there are no closed circuits between any terminals at all.


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Are there any wires on the spare switch? I don't understand how the Small Black button changes the contacts on the Large Black button switch? Is there some internal connection?
> What you are saying and correct me if I wrong, there is no contact between the terminals of the low speed switch on the Large Black button associated contacts until one of the Small Black buttons is pushed. and your required to push a Small Black button and the Large Black button to close the contacts on the High speed switch. To rephrase your words your saying that the Small Black button controls the switches under the Large Black button and that the large Black button directs which 2 sets of contacts High or Low are switched by the Small Black buttons? If so that's not a problem!
> Can you remove the motor wires, mark them so that they can be reconnected.
> Connect one test lead on R (all power removed) push one Small Black Button and check continuity to V1, V2, X1, X2 and Z plus the non motor side of the capacitor. Push Red button and then Push the other Small Black button and check the continuity same as above. Push Red button. Now push one Small Black button and the Large Black button at the same time and repeat the continuity test. Push Red button and repeat the test pushing the other Small Black Button and the Large Black button at the same time. This will test to see if your motor is getting voltage at High Speed to all needed connections.
> Remove the one test lead from R and connect to S. Repeat the test above. Would help if you make a chart of the results
> Frank



Yes, there are at least 15 wires connecting various terminals front and back.

Yes, both small and large black buttons needed to be pushed together in order to get a closed circuit in the previous tests.

Instead of disconnecting the power, I am using the spare switch.  To test both sides of the active switch, I would need to disconnect all leads and remove it from the lathe.  Here are the results with the sample switch:

Closed circuits with one lead of ohm meter on R:

End small button and large button pushed:

V2 and the terminals to either side
Z and the rest of terminals on that lower row

Inboard small button and large button pushed:

Terminal directly below R
Lathe capacitor terminal and the terminal to the immediate right of it
Terminal to the right of milling motor White/Capacitor
Middle 2 terminals on bottom row on other side


Closed circuits with one lead on S:

End small button and large button pushed:

Lathe capacitor terminal
Terminal to the right of S
3rd terminal to the left of R
V1 terminal
4 terminals making up the top row on the other side

Inboard small button and large button pushed:

3 terminals to the left of R
Terminals V1 and V2 and the 2 terminals to the right of them
Terminal to the right of X1
Terminal to the right of X2
4 terminals making up the top row on the other side


I also tested for closed circuits with the large black button only pushed and the results are:

With the ohm tester lead on R:

Terminal to the left of S
Terminal to the right of milling motor White/Capacitor
Middle 2 terminals in the lower row on the other side

With the ohm tester lead on S:

Terminal to the right of milling motor Black
3 terminals to the left of R
Middle 2 terminals in the top row on the other side


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, I really hate to interrupt this since I really appreciate your help, but this weekend my daughter is getting married out of town and I'm leaving in the morning and will be back Tuesday.

When I return, I will check the switch in the lathe.  As best as I can tell, there is no motor plate.  Just a group of wires come out of the motor and into the compartment that houses the switch and capacitors.  

To clarify my testing procedure, according to your previous post, I thought I was to test the circuit between first R and then S with V1, V2, X1, X2, Z, and the non motor side of the capacitor.  In your latest post you give the example of checking the circuit V1-Z.  So now I'm just a little confused as to exactly which circuits I am to check.  Also, in my testing procedure, I assume that when checking circuits, I will ignore all of the many terminals unless those terminals are directly connected to one of the leads in question (for example: V1, V2, X1, X2, R, S, etc). 

On the markings in the manual, this machine is obsolete and I had no manual.  I contacted the factory and they emailed me the manual you see and it already had all of the markings.  None of the markings pertain to this machine.  That being said, when I got the machine, the milling head didn't run until I replaced the capacitor.  Another red flag is the fact that I have this extra switch.  Also, when I look at the switch that is in the lathe, the jumper wires (of which I counted 15) look a little less professionally done than do the jumper wires on the extra switch.

As to "throwing caution to the wind", I really don't want to do that as now the machine runs in low range forward and reverse.  I am quite aware that I could end up with nothing running at all or everything running.  I don't know if I am willing to take that chance.  I believe I am looking for a more cautious approach.

Thanks again for all the help.

Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank, I'm back.  The wedding went well.  I'm reviewing your post in order to begin checking circuits and have a couple of questions before I start so let me lay out what I am to do along with my questions.

Unplug the machine

Disconnect V1,V2, X1 and X2 from the switch

Do I also disconnect Z and the motor cap from the switch?

To check the motor, check continuity on the motor wires between V1 to Z, Z to X1 and V1 to X1. X2 to V2,  X2 to Motor side of the Cap, Motor side of Cap to V2

To check the switch, connect one test lead on R (all power removed) push one Small Black Button and check continuity to V1, V2, X1, X2 and Z plus the non motor side of the capacitor. Push Red button and then Push the other Small Black button and check the continuity same as above. Push Red button. Now push one Small Black button and the Large Black button at the same time and repeat the continuity test. Push Red button and repeat the test pushing the other Small Black Button and the Large Black button at the same time.

Remove the one test lead from R and connect to S. Repeat the test above.


Do V1,V2, X1 and X2 remain disconnected for the test above with R and S and do I also disconnect Z and the motor cap for this test?


Besides my questions, is this complete or is something missing?

Thanks, Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank.  Here are my results.  I did not disconnect the Z lead or the motor side cap lead as the Z lead would have created a whole lot of work and you didn't seem to think we would need to.  If when you see the results, you want me to disconnect those; I certainly will do so.  Also, if you want anything retested after reviewing the results, please let me know.  It does appear that the spare switch has some mechanical problems as it does not stay engaged especially in forward.  Hope I got everything here.  Thanks again for you help.

V1-Z, X1-Z, V1-X1,X2-V2, X2-mtr side cap, and V2-mtr side cap are all closed.


With V1, V2, X1, and X2 still disconnected:

With switch off:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=O, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=O

switch in lathe:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O

Low speed forward:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C

switch in lathe:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=C, S-X2=C, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=C, S-X2=C, S-Z=O

Low speed reverse:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=C, R-Z=C, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C

switch in lathe:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=C, S-X2=O, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O

High speed forward:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C

switch in lathe:
S-V1=C, S-V2=C, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=C, S-V2=C, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O

High speed reverse:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=C, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=C, R-Z=C

switch in lathe:
S-V1=C, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=C, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim I goofed!  In earlier post I said NON motor side of the Cap. Later I said Motor side. I always intended to say NON motor side. All the continuity readings are 0 because of the DC resistance of the capacitor. You may have seen the charge current when first connecting to the Cap. but unless you reversed the leads the Cap would have been charged to the meter voltage and reading should be and is 0, Can you check only the non motor side of the cap. on the lathe switch? All the other connections are not necessary. The data is good.
> So far the Lathe switch looks good, contact closure is as it should be if the motor was 2 winding. Strange that the spare changes in High speed reverse. V2 don't close but X2 does yet the two switches follow the pattern in High speed Forward. Might want to recheck that.
> If you can now check the motor V2 Motor side of the Cap., X2 to Motor side of Cap., V2 to X2 (For this test to do want Motor side of the Cap.)
> Then X1 to Z, V1 to Z and X1 to V1
> 
> Frank



Frank, when you say:

"If you can now check the motor V2 Motor side of the Cap., X2 to Motor side of Cap., V2 to X2 (For this test to do want Motor side of the Cap.)
 Then X1 to Z, V1 to Z and X1 to V1"

I believe I have already done that using the motor side of the cap when I said:

"V1-Z, X1-Z, V1-X1,X2-V2, X2-mtr side cap, and V2-mtr side cap are all closed."
So, V1-Z=C, X1-Z-C, V1-X1=C, X2-V2=C, X2-ms cap=C, V2-ms cap=C

As for redoing the R and S with the Non motor side capacitor (instead of motor side capacitor) circuits in all switch positions for the current lathe switch, all were the same which was open circuit except two that now tested closed.  These two are Low speed and High speed Reverse where S-non motor side cap=C.

I did not do any further checks with the spare switch because it is getting harder and harder to keep the switch engaged.  It won't hold and keeps popping out.  The switch in the lathe is working fine mechanically.

Thanks, Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, I rechecked the circuits of the Low speed and High speed forward on the current lathe switch (R-nms cap=O) and they both continue to show an open circuit, but I checked the spare switch and at least Low speed forward (R-nms cap=C) is closed as you are saying it should be.

When you asked:  "is there any chance V2 and X2 being reversed?"

How would I determine this?

Previously I mentioned that the jumper wires on the two switches looked different.  On the front of the switch (where most of the jumper wires are) both switches are the same (have the same jumpers to the same terminals).  After close inspection, both switches look factory done but definitely at different periods of time as they are definitly different but both switches are functionally the same in regards to jumper wires on the front side.

Thanks, Jim

PS
In case you previously saw this post, I edited it as I was incorrect in something I had put in the post.  Now it is correct.


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank,

I have not performed all of the tests that you have suggested but let me give you what I have done with some of my observations.  Responding to your points pretty much as you gave them to me, here goes:

With spare switch in high speed reverse R-X2=O

With current switch in low speed forward I still get R-nms C=O (tried wiggling and all to no avail) yet
with spare switch in low speed forward R-nms C=C

There is a jumper wire from the nms C that goes to the terminal directly below R on both switches


You mentioned the milling head hook up:

In the switch schematic, the manufacturer shows nms C connected to the same terminal as the motor white terminal yet
my current switch has the nms C connected to the terminal on the right of the terminal where the motor black wire is connected.


With all this in mind, the way both the lathe and the milling head act is as though there capacitors are not working.  To give you a little history, the previous to the previous owner had cut the electrical wires to the milling head and had it in a box.  The previous owner took it out of the box and mounted it but never attempted to hook it up.  I took it to a motor shop and they said that in a test scenario the motor did run and the test supplied the capacitor.  So I bought a new milling capacitor, hooked it up and it ran.  I have used the mill and it functions but it is very slow to get up to its highest speed to the point that I would avoid using that speed.  Thinking that since I replaced the capacitor and the mill ran, maybe I needed to replace the lathe capacitor to get the lather to funtion correctly.  I went to the same motor shop to get a capacitor for the lathe but they tested mine and told me that the one I had was totally functional.

Even in low speed, the lathe is very slow getting up to speed in the highest gear.  Also, on one occasion when I was parting a piece of aluminum, the tool jammed somewhat and the motor immediately reversed. This was in a low gear of low speed forward. At first, I accepted all this as older equipment that was not all that great to begin with but now I wonder.  Really both the lathe and the mill act as though neither has a capacitor at work.

Is there a continuity test I can use to see if milling head capacitor is working with the switch?

Thanks, Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> I think I figured out one little problem. You are looking at the switch and I the schematic! So your right the jumper will go down.
> I'll look at it differently now!
> 
> Frank



Yeah Frank, I'm not sure exactly how to read page 18 but can clearly follow page 19.

The milling head motor is direct drive to the mill spindle.  Page 5 and 6 list the speeds for both motors.  The mill motor is single speed direct drive so the speeds listed are what you get.  The 1450 is the speed that takes way too long to get going.  The lathe on the other hand is run with a timing belt with idler pulley.  The speeds listed for the lathe are the low and high speed together.  Right now I get the low speed range: 65, 265, 530, and 1400.  The 1400 takes way too long to get up to speed.

On the mill nms C connected to a terminal other than the one shown in the switch connection diagram, it seems that I should hook this up as per the drawing on page 19.  Mill motor white and nms C coming together at a terminal would suggest that these two wires would be connected to one connector and they are not.  Not that this couldn't be changed over time but it looks pretty much original.

Also, it is clear to me now that the reason the spare switch is spare is because the low speed forward button will not stay engaged.  This would be the button getting the most use.  I was wondering if I could canabalize the spare switch and use the lathe parts of the spare switch that would allow the nms C to show C to R or S as the spare switch is doing now.  I will attempt to post a photo of the spare switch on the next post so you can see the mechanics of it.  I have never delt with this type of switch before but it looks as though it might break down into parts smaller than the three main plastic pieces.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Back again! Are you telling me that on the drawing page 19 the white wire is NOT connected to the same nms Mill C? But is connected to the right of the black wire?? If so CHANGE it!! Your running on the start cap not the motor winding! You probably never do get up to full speed! If you use it too much you will cook the start winding.
> 
> Frank



Frank, the mill motor right now is connected as follows:

The white wire is connected to the terminal shown on p. 19 to normally receive the black wire,
the black wire is connected to the terminal shown on p. 19 to normally receive the white wire,
and the nms C wire is connected to the terminal just to the right of the terminal shown on p. 19 to normally receive the black wire.

In other words, the black and white wires are crossed (but you said previously that that wouldn't matter) but also, the
nms C wire is connected to the terminal immediately to the right of the terminal shown on p. 19 to connect to mill motor black.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, here are three photos of the spare switch.  Front, back, and close up of right front where I thought I may need to canabalize.  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim  Yes reversing the Black and white is not a problem. However nms mill C must still connect to the same color and as the color code on Page 18 shows, the nms mill C must connect to white.
> I'm a little confused as to what the nmc mill C is connected to. Do I assume that "C wire is connected to the terminal immediately to the right of the terminal shown on p. 19 to connect to mill motor black" is now connected to the right of the white wire because they were reversed? If so that not a problem just so that both nms mill C is connected to white. Later I would change it but if connected as I listed it will work because when the switch closes both white and nms mill c are connected to the same side of power. The bad part is that nms mill C is connected to power all the time. Also you should confirm that when the switch is pushed the contacts between white and nmc mill C close. You will have problems if they don't and possibly why you do have speed problems with the mill motor because it's trying to run on the start winding.
> Note nms mill C is non motor side mill Cap.
> 
> Frank



Frank, with the milling head button engaged and the wires connected as previously described, mill motor white-nms C=C and also mill motor black-nms C=C (this circuit shows a slight resistance compared to the other that is completely closed).  I am using a digital meter that shows fully closed as .000 and 1. as open.  The circuit mill motor black-nms C showed as .002.  Thought I should mention this showing of slight resistance since I don't know if it makes a difference.

The spare switch shows mill motor white-nms C=C but unlike the current switch shows mill motor black-nms C=O.


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim  Your lathe switch will show both closed because your motor is connected. You are seeing the rather low DC resistance thru the coils. Compare it to the spare and there is no motor connected so your seeing only the switch. If the motor were connected to the spare switch, is nms C connected to the O or C of "white-nms C=C but unlike the current switch shows mill motor black-nms C=O" If it's C then is the actual motor wire connected to it white?In other words I need to know the color of the wire that is as wired if it was working like the spare switch so that "color"-nms C = C Understand?
> 
> Frank



I do understand Frank.  So it looks like both switches for the milling head are doing the same thing.  That considered, I wonder if I shouldn't change the wires to the terminals stated on p. 19.  This would switch black and white for the mill motor which I understand won't make any difference but it will also move the mill nms C down one terminal which may affect things in regards to jumper wires.  What do you think?

Also, did the photos of the switch help any?

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim The photos helped. If you look close you will see they reversed the Black and white in the two drawings. As I said it will not make a difference. The drawing on Page 18 shows the black (V) on top but those are the contacts away from the push buttons so so on page 19 that contact should be on the bottom. so the dummies didn't wire the switch on page 19 the same way the show on page 18. However the lathe motor (so far) on page 19 is the same as 18. I'm double checking everything but so far it looks good. But that's the spare switch. Now you will have to compare the connections on the spare to how the connections are made on the machine switch. Right now the most important thing is that the Capacitor on the Mill motor be connected to the white wire. I hope the wire colors are correct!!
> There are yellow and green wires on that Mill Motor switch. Tell me the connections of the motor with respect to the green and yellow wires.
> 
> Frank



Frank,

On the active switch:

The black mill motor wire is connected to the same row as the yellow jumper wire 

The white mill motor wire and the nms C wire are on the same row as what would be the green jumper wire (the wire color is actually blue as blue is substituted for green on the jumper wires on the active switch).


At this point, the only jumper wires that I cannot readily see are the ones on the back of the active switch.  All the jumpers on the front of the active switch exactly match the spare switch as far as connecting identical terminals.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank,

Hope you don't think I was crying wolf, but the mill motor is fine.  The mill motor is direct drive 120V single speed 1/4 HP motor.  It directly drives a gearbox that is packed with grease (instead of oil bath).  After it was freshly pack (by me) and the shop was on the cool side, it didn't want to go 1450 rpm.  Now with the shop hot, it goes pretty readily to 1450 without jumping nms C and white.  Mill motor white and mill nms C are on the same row.

The lathe is different thing.  It is an oil bath (so not so temperature sensitive) and when the two buttons are pushed (to get high speed range) it definitely goes even slower that low speed and eventually the motor smokes.  With what I know which is limited in this application, it seems like we have shown with the continuity tests that the cap does not seem to be connected by the switch currently in the lathe and the lathe is doing things characteristic of a motor without a capacitor in the circuit.  Do you think that it is time for us to jumper the capacitor into the circuit?  Would it be a pretty safe (avoiding any damage to switch or motor) thing to do?

I did the test you requested by starting the lathe in low speed forward and then in low speed reverse.  In the highest speed (1400 rpm) with only a chuck on the spindle, it takes it a second or so to get up to speed in forward but it gets right up to speed in reverse.  I tried it a few times with the same result.  It is not much of a pause but it is clearly there.  What you asked is exactly what it does (Does reverse get up to speed quickly and Forward have to kinda wind up?).

As to your questions regarding the ohm meter.  My digital meter is set at 2K.  When I touch the two leads, .000 is the reading I get and when neither is touching anything, 1. is the reading.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, I did switch the mill motor wires so now mill motor white and mill nms C are on the same row as the yellow jumper and mill motor black is on the row with the green (blue) jumper wire.

So, now for the lathe, I have four of the small based 120V bulbs.  I am not exactly sure how this four light tester would be wired.  I understand the concept of the tester mirroring the motor just not sure of the wiring of the four bulb tester.  Please let me know and I'll get that together.  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, also on the ohm meter when set at 2K with neither probe touching, it reads 1. (with no zeros) and when the two probes make contact, it reads .000.  Other settings on this meter in measuring ohms are 20M, 2M, 200K, 20K, 2K, 200, and a symbol.  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> I don't understand why 1. It's on a 2000 ohm range. what does it do on 20M or 20,000,000 ohms?
> 
> Frank



Frank,

20M=1 . (empty space between 1 and decimal) when open and 0.00 when closed

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

OK Frank, I made the test lamps.  I didn't test them due to not having the right ends, etc.  They look like what was ordered anyway.  I hooked them up and here are the results:

Low Fwd - only X1 lights
Low Rev - X1 and X2 light
Hi Fwd - V1 lights
Hi Rev - V1 and V2 light

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank,

I have not tried the lathe in high speed reverse.  I believe since it might smoke the motor, we were trying other things first.

On the last test with X1 now attached to X2 and V1 now attached to V2 here are the results:

Low Fwd - V1, V2, X2 at less than 1/2 intensity and X1 at full intensity
Low Rev - V1, V2 at less than 1/2 intensity and X2 at full intensity
Hi Fwd - V2 and X2 at less than 1/2 intensity and V1 at full intensity
Hi Rev - X2 at approx. 3/4 intensity and V2 at full intensity

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank,

"I assume if you don't give intensity the lamp is off?" - Yes

"When you removes X1 and connected to X2 both are now connected to X2 and nothing on X1 Switch connection the same with V1 it's on V2 and nothing on V1 switch connection." - Yes

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank,

Sorry but I didn't think about it until you asked the question but yes, the Z wire is still connected to the switch.  It is on the back side of the switch in the lathe and the switch would need to come out so I can get to it but if it needs to be removed, just let me know and I'll disconnect it and do the tests again.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, what about what previously talked about when you said that the capacitor is not in the circuit when the lathe is operated in either forward range (low speed and high speed)?  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, you say that the capacitor is not in the circuit after the motor starts.  Since my capacitors are tin cans, I thought they would be start and run capacitors.  Also, I thought that we determined in the continuity tests that the capacitor was possibly not in the circuit at all or at least not in forward.  When I started it up in forward and reverse and forward took longer to spool up, I thought that was an indication that forward did not have the capacitor in the circuit and reverse did.

Can you tell me again how to test the motor in high speed range without using the switch?  Don't know if I can find it in the past posts.  I will also test the lathe in high speed reverse to see if it seems to function normally (not the way forward functions).  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank,

In my last post, I thought I was responding to your most recent post but now I can't find your post that I responded to.  Oh well, just take it as some thoughts on the problem and by the way, I do really appreciate your help on this.

Thanks, Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim If your motor had both run and start capacitor there would be 2. However in another topic 7HC has a motor with one Cap and no centrifugal switch. Yes there are motors with only a Run Cap. but they were used with low torque start functions like fan motors but he had one connected in a saw (I think) To lower cost these imports may be using this type of motor.
> Now to answer your question. The switches in your lathe do the following, I can't be positive that it's correct for your motor. If you recall I said there are 2 types of 2 speed motors, One has two different motor windings in the motor and run as two different motors is the better of the two and costs more money! The other is a single 4 pole motor that uses the switching to change the pole arrangement to 2 poles. Both the drawing and the switching indicate you have the 2 winding motor but some of the tests I was doing I was trying to see if I could confirm what you have! Two things bothered me, One the 2 winding 2 speed motor is more expensive and Two was the requirement to have to push both buttons at the same time to use High speed! It seem they wanted a disconnect in high speed something that would be required in a pole switching application. The fact that your motor does get up to speed with out the Cap connection in Low Speed Forward should indicate it has a start Cap switch. If you hear a click when the motor is shut down and coasting to a stop then it has a centrifugal switch.
> Back to your answer, In Low Speed Reverse the switch connects "S" to "X1" and nmc "C"   ---- "P" to "Z" and "X"
> Low Speed Forward "S" to "X1" and "X2"-----"P" to "Z" and nms"C"
> Connecting "S" and "P" mean nothing use any one of the 2 wire cord you intend to power the motor for "S" and the other for "P" to reverse direction you simply reverse X2 and nms"C". If you switch both the motor will not reverse direction nor does it mater which two are switched. Understand? Put wire nuts or tape on "V1" and "V2"
> Connect power and your motor will run one way or the other depending how it's wired.
> High speed is the same except "X1" will be insulated and V1 connected "X2" Insulated and "V2" connected. Be ready to disconnect the wires on High speed if your motor don't run right because your having problem with High Speed.
> If you have any questions please ask!!
> 
> Frank



Hi Frank,

I do have some questions:

What lead is P?
Does Z need to be disconnected from the switch in order to perform the tests?
How well do these connections need to be since this is motor current?
Is it sufficient to pinch them together with aligator clips?


In my quests for capacitors, I was continually told that the bakelite type capacitors are start only and the tin can type are start and run capacitors.  I understood that in the start mode the tin can type was in the start circuit and then switched out by the motor but while running, it would be switched back end periodically.

Also, when it comes to making guesses as to what the manufacturer would have done, Taiwan in the 80s on an 8X18 lathe would be looking for the most bang for the buck.  These guys knew their onions as they were the guys inventing calculators at the time but in my experience, the big push was to cut cost, beat competition, and make money.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank,

I don't understand what you mean by:
"I would also use a cord of some kind that is not connected to "S" or "R" just in case there is some switch problems."

When you say:
"Connection needs to be as good as the amperage of the motor requires, do you have wire nuts?"
All of these wires have female spade terminals in order to connect to the male spade terminals on the switch so I will make jumper wires with male spade terminals on each end.  It is easy to keep all wires and connections from touching metal or each other.

When you say:
"It might be a good idea to put one of thos light bulbs in series with it!"
First, which circuit is to have the light bult in series and 
secondly, is series to have the light bulb directly in that particular circuit where if the light bulb were not there there would be no complete circuit?

When you talk about the hearing the centrifugal switch kicking in, I know the sound well.  I don't believe I have heard it on this lathe (although I wasn't listening for it) but with all of the gear noise from the headstock, I just may not be able to hear the motor switch if it is not that distinct as my ears are long past subtle sounds.  I may need to get my wife to listen but that involves interpretation.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Sorry Frank, I skipped that question.  No, there is not a resistor between the terminals of the capacitor.  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

One more question Frank.  A couple of posts back, you said:
"Back to your answer, In Low Speed Reverse the switch connects "S" to "X1" and nmc "C"   ---- "P" to "Z" and "X"
 Low Speed Forward "S" to "X1" and "X2"-----"P" to "Z" and nms"C"

I know the P is R but which X is the one without a number after it ("P" to "Z" and "X")?  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank,

After hooking a circuit up (and I have Z loose from the switch), I checked and there is no closed circuit to the motor case as you mentioned.  When I gave power to the low speed reverse circiut, the motor hums, the light bulb in series lights up, but there is no movement of the motor shaft.  I had the lathe in neutral but there is still some force required to start.  It is a lot to remove the belt as it is a timing belt.  I didn't go any further since it did not go in low speed reverse.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

OK Frank, in both low speed reverse and in high speed forward, the motor starts right up.  There is no click when it is shut off.  I have marked the motor pulley to make movement more visable.  I can't be positive but it looks like the motor is going the same speed in low and high.  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim
> 
> The motor runs in all ranges but the speed stays the same. I'm sure you will hear the difference between 1800 RPM and 3600 RPM.
> I'm thinking you have a 2 speed one winding motor, it makes sense. Fits the low cost theory! But if it were 2 speed one winding and we used 2 of the available poles it should be running at High speed all the time not low speed. Seems every alley we go down it adds to the puzzle not help solve the problem.
> I have a few motor books at my shop, I'll have to check on wiring methods. Your switch don't tell us much since the schematic seems to follow the wiring diagram but we have no idea what's happening inside the switch.
> Is there any information on the motor? Did you try High Speed Reverse or Low Speed Forward
> 
> Frank



Hi Frank,

I will check High Speed Reverse or Low Speed Forward first thing tomorrow.

When you say, "we have no idea what's happening inside the switch," don't we have some idea that terminals above and below each other are probably contacted as the switch button in that area moves up and down.  Guess that's not much but something.

You asked: "Is there any information on the motor?"  Every time speeds are given by the manufacturer, there is a reference to one speed if 50 cycles and another speed if 60 cycles.  It is given this for each and every gear setting.  I don't know if that means anything.  Also, I'll give you all the motor plate has on it tomorrow.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank,

Here is the info on the motor plate (I am stating it here as close to the way they state it as I can):

Type: TTC
HP: 1/3/4
Pole: 2/4
Rotor: C
Rating: Cont.
INS.CL: E
Volt: 115
Cycle: 60
Amp: 5.6/6A
Bearing: 6004 6004
RPM: 3425/1710
MFG #: 82618
Date: 1980

You say that I will need to know what speed the motor is going.  The only thing I have for determining RPM is an old Starret type mechanical device.  Add to that the fact that I am looking at the driven pulley which is probably a little smaller than the driver pulley on the motor.  I have checked the lathe spindle speeds in low range and they are exactly what they should be for low range 60 cycles.  If you mean, that I need to be sure the motor is going 1710 versus 3425 then I am certain that in high speed forward, the motor was going 1710 and not 3425.  Please let me know how close you want me to be able to determine the speed.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Sorry Frank, I should have included the name on the motor in the last post.  Also on the motor plate is:

INDUCTION MOTOR
Single Phase Condewser (spelled this way) Run Type
Stanley Electric Works Co. Ltd.

It is a totally enclosed fan cooled motor.

I hadn't hook up the other two way until I heard back from you on the speed.  I will do it now.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, I ran the two other tests.  Speed stays the same (low speed) for all four modes but the direction changes.  I am not sure of the next step.  Should I go to the light bulb tests again or just what?  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, I'm getting a little bit confused.  To do the wire test this go around V1, V2, X1, X2, and Z are all lose from the switch.  I connect my light bulb circuits to them in the order as before but my remaining light bulb lead goes to red.  Is red to remain connected to the switch?  If so that means that R and S are the only leads connected to the switch.  And from there I push buttons for the four modes of operation and note results.  Is this correct?  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, for direction, low and high speed forward go counter clockwise and low and high speed reverse go clockwise and all four at the same slower speed.

Be sure and see my previous post where I am seeking clarity before doing the bulb tests.  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Thanks Frank.  It came clear in my mind.  I am testing all the respective terminals on the switch and not the wires.  Besides the mill the only wires that will be connected to the switch in this test are Red and Black and Red is my connection for W.  I will do those tests tomorrow.  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim One thing you might want to check, maybe we did do it but can't remember. On the High and Low speed switch with no lamps or motor connected nor power. Check continuity between terminals on each switch in both High and Low.
> 
> Frank



Hi Frank,

I was away this morning but will begin on all the tests now.  When you say, "Check continuity between terminals on each switch in both High and Low," does that mean all terminals with all other terminals.  I know that would be a lot of combinations so I checking before I begin to make sure I understand what you want.  Also, I don't have access to the back side of the switch that is in the lathe but I could test that side using the spare switch.  Please let me know.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, here is so far on the continuity test on the switch with no wires or power connected:

I have numbered the terminals on the front of the switch and no paid attention to the mill terminals.  The are numbered from right to left, top to bottom in the first unit and then the same in the next unit to the left.  I'm basically using red as #1.  it looks like this:

12 11 
                                       10  9                                                              4 3 2 1   (no matter what I do with these numbers in this post, they don't come out in the physical order I intend.  Let me know if you need further explanation)
16 15
                               14 13                                                          8 7 6 5

and my results are:


High Fwd

Red-7

Black-3, 4, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15

9-10-11-13-14-15 (I believe all combos of these)


Low Fwd

Red-7

Black-2, 3, 4, 9, 11, 13, 15

5-8 and 2-3


Low Rev

Red-7,4

Black-3, 5, 8, 9, 11, 12

2-4 and 3-8


I will next do the bulb tests.

Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank,

Here are the results of the continuity test as you prescribe:

With only the low speed fwd button pushed, the circiut is closed between:


top right terminal of the 4 under low fwd with each of the following:

terminal directly beside it,
4 terminals to the right of V1,V2, X1, X2
X1
X2

top left terminal of the 4 under low fwd with each of the following:

terminal directly beside it,
4 terminals to the right of V1,V2, X1, X2
X2



With the high speed fwd buttons pushed, the circiut is closed between:


top right terminal of the 4 under low fwd with each of the following:

terminal directly beside it,
all of the 8 high speed terminals except X1 and X2


top left terminal of the 4 under low fwd with each of the following:


terminal directly beside it,
all of the 8 high speed terminals except X1 and X2


Let me know if I covered what you wanted on this test.

Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Hi Frank,

My post below is the continuity tests and this post is the light bult tests.

The light bult test is done with one circuit Z-V1-X1 and the other circuit W-V2-X2 with all wires except red and black removed from the switch.  My results are as follows:

Low Fwd - X1 and X2 lights
Low Rev - X1 lights
High Fwd - V1 and V2 lights
High Rev - V1 lights 

Now with the same as above except X1 now attached to X2 and V1 now attached to V2:

Low Fwd - X1 and X2 lights
Low Rev - no lights
High Fwd - V1 and V2 lights
High Rev - no lights

Looks like these results were quite a bit different with Z disconnected.  Does this make more sense now?  Have you heard anything from the other board on the motor ID?

Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, here are the results of the latest continuity tests of the motor wires:

orange-blue=O
orange-white=5.0
orange-yellow=O
orange-black=1.8
orange-red=O

blue-orange=O
blue-white=O
blue-yellow=23.2
blue-black=O
blue-red=10.3

white-orange=5.0
white-blue=O
white-yellow=O
white-black=3.6
white-red=O

yellow-orange=O
yellow-blue=23.2
yellow-white=O
yellow-black=O
yellow-red=13.2

black-orange=1.8
black-blue=O
black-white=3.7
black-yellow=O
black-red=O

red-orange=O
red-blue=10.3
red-white=O
red-yellow=13.2
red-black=O

The motor wires are actually colored exactly as shown on the switch diagram on page 18 with the addition of ms Cap being red.

Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim Can you do the same to the Mill motor, You should not have to disconnect any wires, test all the motor wires the same way. I want to see which winding has lower resistance.
> Frank



Here are the results Frank:

white-black=4.0
white-red=18.5

black-white=4.0
black-red=14.5

red-white=18.5
red-black=14.5

Jim


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## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, remember I did one test with a light bulb in series with the motor capacitor and the motor hummed but did not run.  You told me that apparently the light bulb was too much resistance and had me take the light bulb out of the circuit.  Without the light bulb the motor would run.  Don't you think that we would run into this same situation on the latest test you are suggesting?  I will wait to hear back from you before I do this latest test.  Also, in case I do the test, is R either leg of a power cord and S the other leg?  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*

Frank, I think I get it.  Four light bulbs have less resistance than one light bulb.  OK now I'm looking at my notes from previously doing that test and if I am going to do Low Speed Reverse, then I believe the circuits should be S-X1-nms C and 4 parallel light bulbs as one circuit and the other is R-Z-X2.  Is this correct?  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

*Re: Capacitor questions*



Froneck said:


> Hi Jim
> S-X1 and 4 parallel light bulbs as one circuit     Other side4 parallel light bulbs -nms C is another    R-Z-X2 is the third.
> Your not connecting nms C to S-X1 one side of the  4 Bulbs is connected to S-X1. Other wire from 4 bulbs is connected to nms C
> nms C is getting power from S thru the bulbs so it can't be connected to S-X1.
> 
> Frank



Just so I have this straight Frank, I have made two simple harnesses that are each two wires with each pair connected on one end.  The connected ends go into R for one circuit and S for the other.  So the R circuit with my harness has one lead connecting to Z and the other lead connecting to X2.  Now I assume the S circuit with my harness has one wire connecting to X1.  Does the other harness wire of the S circuit connect to one end of the four parallel blubs with the other end of the four parallel bulbs connecting to nms Cap?  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

Hi Frank,

I set up to do the light bulb test with four bulbs parallel and these are the results:

The first time I plugged in my test circuit the motor ran with little or no hesitation.  All four lights started out a little less than full illumination for only a split second and then came fully bright.  It ran for a minute or so and then I shut it down.  To make sure I was aware of all that was happening, I plugged in my power again.  This time the motor would only hum so I immediately unplugged it.  I waited a few minutes, turned the motor to a new location using the pulley, and tried power one more time but the motor only hummed so I stopped there.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

Froneck said:


> Hi Jim When you tested is a second time, did the lights come on?
> 
> Frank



Frank, I was afraid that you were going to ask me that.  I think that it was so unexpected that the motor hummed instead of running since it had just run.  When I had finished the three attempts (one running and two humming), I could totally recall what the lights did on the first attempt but not on the two motor humming attempts.  So, since you did ask the question, I did the test one more time (a fourth time hours later).  This time nothing at all happened.  The motor didn't hum and the lights didn't light.  I only plugged it in and immediately unplugged it when nothing happened.  I hope I haven't permanently damaged anything.  Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

Hi Frank,

The reason I got nothing at all was because my R and S connections were not totally reliable.  I have improved those connections and now when I do the test with the bulbs in circuit, the bulbs light but the motor only hums.  Without the lights in circuit, the motor runs as before.  When I talked about damaging a part, my concern was more about switches within the motor rather than motor coils expecially if those switches are solid state.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

Hi Frank,

I guess we are sort of in a holding pattern.

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

Hi Frank,

Besides giving a motor shop the motor, the spare switch, the wiring diagram for the motor, and the wiring schematic for the switch, is there anything else I should tell them or show them?

Jim


----------



## yellow_cad

Frank, I do appreciate your help but I probably won't pull the motor off for a while since it does operate in the low range which is the most frequently used range.  I will get some projects out of the way, contact some motor shops, and then take the motor off.  Thanks again, Jim


----------



## TOOLMASTER

*Re: Capacitor questions*



yellow_cad said:


> MODEL 818 BENCH LATHE.pdf (1.43 MB)
> 
> Not sure, but maybe I got it uploaded.  It's pages 18 and 19 of the document.




just what i've been looking for)


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## gmog44

Hi Gang,
This started off as a JMD 18 mill/drill thread, and I'd like to steer it back:  I need help with 230V wiring.

I finally got 230V to this machine, re-wired it (it had been wired for 115V) and the relay box just hums at me, nothing getting to the motor.


Changing the transformer for 230V was easy enough, and rewiring the motor is diagrammed on its junction box.
Can anyone direct me to a diagram to check the wiring for the relay?  Or perhaps the proper incantation?
Thanks,
Garth


----------

