# confused



## dirty tools (Sep 30, 2013)

I am confused on powering my ENCO 92059 mill
the current motor is 3 phase 220 vac.
I have single phase 220 vac. 30 amp available.
I am at lost on repowering
    (1) new motor
    (2) phase convertor
or (3) VFD

I have very limited funds and a wife that monitors my spending (retired accountant).
any suggestions ?:whiteflag:


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## davidh (Sep 30, 2013)

no confusion as far as im concerned.   first, get a job she don't know about,  then buy a vfd.  you will be happy.
even the fairly cheap ones seem  to do the job.
that's just my humble opinion.


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## Bill Gruby (Sep 30, 2013)

If you already have the 220 single phase available that is what I would go with. It should do just fine. I bought a Grizzly motor  (1HP0 for my Clausing 8520 for $156.00. Not sorry at all.

 "Billy G"


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## Ray C (Sep 30, 2013)

How many horsepower is the motor?

A VFD cost roughly $200 and you will have variable speed which is very nice to have.

A new motor will cost $200-300 (depending on size).

An RPC will cost $500-700 (unless you have the spare parts to make one but, nothing is ever that easy or cheap).

If this is a hobby for you and have a stable roof over your head and meals at dinner time, don't cost-justify your purchases.

Ray


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 30, 2013)

i would make a RPC cheaply spare parts (less than $100, if you have a spare 3 phase motor), if you have time.
see the link below for plans:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/12712-Rpc-simple-design-unbalanced

If you have less time than money i would lean towards the VFD, my 2 cents anyway....


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## Hawkeye (Sep 30, 2013)

Gather your research, then ask your wife for her opinion. A cost/benefit analysis may work for you.

I prefer the VFD. Get one a bit bigger than you motor rating. It is possible to run more than one machine off one VFD - just not at the same time.

I got a single-phase motor for my Victoria mill to replace the 440 volt one that it came with. Cost a few bucks more than the mill. Be aware that a single-phase could be physically larger than a 3-phase of the same HP. Make sure it will fit, if you're going that route.


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## DMS (Oct 1, 2013)

I will second (third) the VFD option. I am guessing your machine is running about a 1.5hp motor like mine? Installation of a VFD is fairly straightforward, and variable speed is nice. I have a hitachi WJ200-015SF, and I have been happy with it. Lots of folks also seem to like the TECO drives, and I think they go for a bit less.


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## Kennyd (Oct 1, 2013)

Another VFD vote here if the motor is under 3HP...buy once/cry once.  Even the Chicom ones sold on eBay seems to hold up well-after you get them programmed.


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## CluelessNewB (Oct 1, 2013)

Another VFD vote.  3 Phase motors are simple, about the only thing that goes wrong is bearings and they are typically easy to replace.   The VFD will cost about the same as a new motor and you will have variable speed and smoother running than a single phase motor.  Personally I like the Teco drives but not the FM50 so much, it's a bit dated.  The Teco JNEV drives are significantly better than the FM50 and only a little more expensive.  The Teco N3 (7300) are also very nice but probably overkill.  I have one of the Ebay Huanyang VFD's on a 6" belt sander it's functional but I won't buy another, it's a bit too cheaped out for me, I wish I had spent the extra money for a Teco JNEV.


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## dirty tools (Oct 1, 2013)

Thanks every one
I am looking at a VFD that cost about $130 for a 2hp motor


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## DAN_IN_MN (Oct 1, 2013)

:whistle:*If you want really cheep!* :whistle:

​I got this idea from the guy who owns Tried and True Tool in Coon Rapids MN.  He had RPCs sitting there but let me in on this.

Find an unwanted 3 phase motor that is 220 and larger than the motor you want to run.  Connect the two 220 leads up to two of the three leads on the motor with some sort of a switch/disconnect.   Connect your machine motor up to the three legs of the converter motor of course with a switch in between.

Now, any three phase motor will run on 220 single phase once it's spinning.  The trick is to get the converter motor spinning.   I have mine sitting on the floor.  I use my foot and kick it to get it spinning.  Once I think it's fast enough, I turn the power on.  The converter motor is now running.  Now I can run my mill, lathe, and my car hoist.  I soon will be adding my tire balancer once I get the threads cut in the nut to hold the wheel on.

I have run capacitors to balance the amps in the phases.  I got them used from a local guy who rebuilds motors.  Before the capacitors were put in, there was a huge arc (EMF) when I pulled the disconnect on the converter motor.  Now I don't see any flash.  Other than the flash on disconnect, I don't remember why I needed the capacitors.  Maybe someone can fill that one in.  I don't have an amp meter.  I had a friend come over with a meter and help me balance the system.


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## Ray C (Oct 1, 2013)

Be careful to make sure the unit has a speed control on the panel.  Some of the lower priced ones require you to wire-in your own variable rheostat which costs a few bucks and requires a little extra wiring.  The 20 extra bucks for a built in panel speed control is money well spent.


Ray



dirty tools said:


> Thanks every one
> I am looking at a VFD that cost about $130 for a 2hp motor


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## DAN_IN_MN (Oct 1, 2013)

Ray C said:


> Be careful to make sure the unit has a speed control on the panel.  Some of the lower priced ones require you to wire-in your own variable rheostat which costs a few bucks and requires a little extra wiring.  The 20 extra bucks for a built in panel speed control is money well spent.
> 
> 
> Ray




I've read on this forum somewhere, some guys are adding a remote speed control.


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## Ray C (Oct 1, 2013)

Yes indeed, if it has a built-in speed control, you just program it to accept input from an external switch.  It will work from one or the other but not both at the same time -as that is a safety issue.




DAN_IN_MN said:


> I've read on this forum somewhere, some guys are adding a remote speed control.


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## CluelessNewB (Oct 1, 2013)

dirty tools said:


> Thanks every one
> I am looking at a VFD that cost about $130 for a 2hp motor



I think that limits you to an Ebay special. 

You can purchase a Teco JNEV-202-H1 for $177 + shipping and it has a speed control knob on the front panel.  Personally I would save my money for a few weeks and hold out for the JNEV.

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/236559-it-s-unwise-to-pay-too-much-but-it-s-worse-to


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## UncleRuss (Oct 2, 2013)

Ray C said:


> If this is a hobby for you and have a stable roof over your head and meals at dinner time, don't cost-justify your purchases.
> 
> Ray



Ray, may I use this?  Very well said.  Could not have said it better myself!

Worked with a guy once who said the very same things.  After his divorce I learned he was the tight one and just put the blame on the old lady!!!


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## DAN_IN_MN (Oct 2, 2013)

DAN_IN_MN said:


> :whistle:*If you want really cheep!* :whistle:
> 
> ​I got this idea from the guy who owns Tried and True Tool in Coon Rapids MN.  He had RPCs sitting there but let me in on this.
> 
> ...



This system works very well by the way.


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## UncleRuss (Oct 2, 2013)

But the problem with a RPC is you are paying to operate that extra motor the whole time you are in the shop.  I am sure no one turns them off and on with the mill, drill, lathe, or what ever.  Even then if the RPC is 3hp and the lathe is 3/4hp you are paying the bill to operate 3 3/4hp when you are barely doing the work of 3/4hp.  Pay me now-pay me forever!


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## DAN_IN_MN (Oct 2, 2013)

UncleRuss said:


> But the problem with a RPC is *you are paying to operate that extra motor the whole time you are in the shop.  I am sure no one turns them off and on with the mill, drill, lathe, or what ever.*  Even then if the RPC is 3hp and the lathe is 3/4hp you are paying the bill to operate 3 3/4hp when you are barely doing the work of 3/4hp.  Pay me now-pay me forever!



If I'm not making chips, the converter is off.  Yes, you are correct about paying to run two motors.  However, if I didn't have this setup, I'd probably be using a hand crank set up! anic: :jester:  Yes, it is a pain, but that's what I do.


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## awander (Oct 3, 2013)

UncleRuss said:


> But the problem with a RPC is you are paying to operate that extra motor the whole time you are in the shop.  I am sure no one turns them off and on with the mill, drill, lathe, or what ever.  Even then if the RPC is 3hp and the lathe is 3/4hp you are paying the bill to operate 3 3/4hp when you are barely doing the work of 3/4hp.  Pay me now-pay me forever!



It doesn't take 3hp to run an unloaded motor.


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## UncleRuss (Oct 3, 2013)

awander said:


> It doesn't take 3hp to run an unloaded motor.



You Sir are very correct.

My point is why pay to have any motor run besides the one that runs the machine you are using.  Just money down a rat hole.  Any money saved by installing RPC equipment for low HP applications is quickly spent in power bills.  Besides the maintenance, noise, and upkeep factor.

A VFD will cure the problem and they are following the path of all electronics, and getting less expensive all the time.

I tried the Phase Adder option when I was first starting to save $120 on a drill installation.  Out of frustration I quickly replaced it with a VFD.

Get this part.  After having troubles the manufacturer could not understand, explain, or fix, I said I wanted to return it.  His answer "WE DON'T ACCEPT RETURNS ON *USED* ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS".  Protects himself pretty well doesn't he?  To protect myself and others from further temptation I threw it in the s$$$ can.


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## awander (Oct 3, 2013)

UncleRuss said:


> You Sir are very correct.
> 
> My point is why pay to have any motor run besides the one that runs the machine you are using.  Just money down a rat hole.  Any money saved by installing RPC equipment for low HP applications is quickly spent in power bills.  Besides the maintenance, noise, and upkeep factor.......



If it was me, i would buy a VFD as well.

But I think an unloaded 2 or 3hp 3ph motor will probably draw at most 60 watts or so.

A VFD will use some power as well, so I don't know if the rotary phase converter will really cost that much in electrical power.


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## DAN_IN_MN (Oct 3, 2013)

With this talk about the power consumption of RPCs, I thought I'd look it up.  I hope this link is okay.

http://www.kayind.com/tech_center/FAQ.htm#how efficient

Here's another link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_phase_converter


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## 4GSR (Oct 6, 2013)

I have a VFD on my mill and been running it for nearly 8 years now.  Best investment I've ever made.  Power consumption is neglectable in comparison with the rest of the house.  The light bulb in my son's room burns more electricity that the total of all of the VFD's I have in use today in the shop!


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