# [Newbie Update] Taig Machines?



## cweber

Hi Folks,

I am back from long overdue holidays and catching up with work. 

After more soul searching, I am coming to the conclusion that the Taig machines will offer me the best value for money for small hobby work, and offer a slight advantage in size over Sherline. Wabeco sure look nice but the cost would leave no room for tooling. I have not spent much time looking at Sieg, but there are more negative reviews on those; maybe because more of them sell?

*I’ve been looking on various forums and the consensus (last year) was as follows on differences between Sherline and Taig;*
 
“Sherline mill Pros: variable speed motor, better class thread on the headstock for screw on accessories, hardened spindle nose for accuracy with MT1 spindle mount accessories, lots of accessories available, easy to upgrade to CNC with excellent bolt on motor mounts”, and for “Taig Mill Cons: Motor, headstock not hardened except ER16 versions, the CNC motor mounts
leave a LOT to be desired, fewer accessories”.

“Some people like a mix of a Sherline motor on a Taig Headstock with a Taig mill or even an entire Sherline motor and headstock on a Taig mill.”
“If you are on the lookout for a lathe for precision work, do not put the Taig lathe on your list, it has many more issues than the Taig mill. For precision consider Sherline, Cowells, Levin”

“I have a Taig mill CNCed and a Sherline 4400 lathe CNCed…I didn't go with the Taig lathe because I didn't like the approach and it is more difficult to CNC.”

“If I were starting over, I'd get a Taig CNC ready mill without the AC motor and add the sherline motor to it. Having used it on my lathe, its fantastic. I can control the speeds via mach3 as well as get index feedback. With the Taig motor I'm consistently changing pulleys.”

“For the electronics on the Taig I use a STDR-4C from Soigeneris. It is a well packaged setup with a g540 in it. His 166 oz/in motors work great on the taig.”

“I do use a sherline rotary table for a 4th axis on my taig and it works well. In fact, I find myself taking the chuck off the lathe and moving it to the mill (or vice-versa) to do complex operations.”

*Q1. **What do we all think of these comments please?*

*This is the feedback I received from my potential supplier:*

"The Taig mills – whether manual or CNC – use the ER16 headstock, which Is rated at 10,000 rpm and has the 22 x 1.5 mm spindle thread. Most Taig mill accessories are designed to be mounted in a 10 mm or 3/8 inch ER16 collet. Some of the comments below are no longer relevant as the ER16 headstock is superior to the Sherline equivalent and the Taig accessory range has been expanded. I would agree that the 6-step pulley system for the spindle motor is antiquated even if it is adequate. The yet-to-be-released CNC lathe has a variable speed motor that will be controlled by the Mach3 software, completely eliminating the 6-step pulley system. I have been informed that this new innovation will transplant to the CNC mills. At this stage, the launch of the CNC Lathe is 9 to 12 months away."

"The rotary table that is supplied as the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] axis in the Taig CNC Mill 4000 is an adapted Sherline model. It is controlled by the Taig specific Mach3 software without issue."

"I would definitely recommend the Taig CNC Mill 4000 over the Sherline equivalent as it is a far more robust machine, and I would wait for the expected release of the Taig CNC Lathe early next year, in order to compare with the Sherline CNC Lathe."

*Q2. **Do these comments sound fair?
*
Cheers, Colin


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## martik777

While you can do incredible work on Taig sized machines, they have a very narrow work envelope (ie: small), no powerfeed, no leadscrew and no threading without CNC or extensive mods. I seriously considered one, but knew I would want to work on larger material, so after waiting patiently, I was able to purchase both a South bend 9A lathe and RF25 size mill for less than the cost of the bare Taig mill.

Tooling doesn't have to be expensive, much of it can be shop made. To get started, all you need for the lathe is a few pieces of HSS stock (please learn to grind your own), couple of centers, lathe dog, 3 and maybe 4 jaw chuck and drill chuck.  For the mill, a vise, a few HSS end mills, chuck, collet or end mill holder. Add a dial indicator, 6" digital caliper and micrometer and you can make just about anything.  Excluding the 3/4 jaw chuck which should come with the lathe, all that tooling will cost < $250.

Here's a few of my fav Taig links: (spend a few hours studying the projects - it will answer ALL your questions)

Taig lathe/mill projects, also used for camera/watch repair business:
http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/projects.html


This guy does amazing stuff with his sherline lathe and mill but I'm sure you could do the same with taig at much less cost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEgSaWHbNO0


Another very talented guy using Taig machines:
http://www.modelengines.info/

Taig lathe/mill info and CNC conversion:
http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/taig_micro_lathe_cnc.htm

A dedicated forum for taig users:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/


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## mikey

Colin, it is difficult to provide an honest response to your question without potentially offending a Sherline or Taig owner. I have seen some incredible work done on both brands, and I mean truly inspiring work, which tells me it ain't the machine. I suggest joining both the Sherline and Taig Yahoo groups and asking for opinions from those who own or have extensive experience with *both* machines. I would discount comments from someone who owns only one brand, which includes Sherline-owning me. I think you will find that both brands have pros and cons that you can weigh. 

The one area that will not be in question are accessories. Sherline is well ahead of Taig in the sheer number of accessories available to fit their machines and their quality is well above Taig in most cases. This is not a major issue because other aftermarket sources are available but it is a consideration. 

I don't know if Taig addressed the lack of screw-cutting ability on their lathe. I believe this is a critical omission on an otherwise good little machine; it was a deal-breaker for me, though.

As for the seller's comments, he is a seller of Taig machines! Are they fair?_* "...  the ER16 headstock is superior to the Sherline equivalent ..."*_ Really? If this is so then this is the first I have heard of it. If Taig were using a headstock from http://www.sherlinecollet.com/ then I might buy that statement. I'm sure he is giving you the information you need but, well, I'll leave it there. 

In the end, I think you will be happy with whichever system you go with. For your stated objectives - _*to create small puzzles, chess, various types of clocks, functional mini motors, etc.*_ - either will work well. When I saw your goals, however, I must say that I thought that Sherline equipment would be perfect!


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## cweber

The Sherline guy here was a real nice bloke on the phone, very helpful. The machines just look so small  I reckon I could do all that I want with them though and have plenty of room left over. Even servo controlling them rather than stepper motors is affordable.

I am not totally sold on the Taig at this stage, but have been leaning that way because of the slightly larger swing and apparent additional rigidity. I am waiting until a bit later this year so have a couple more months to make a decision.

The strong feedback is on making my own tooling and there appears to be plenty of help available on how to do that. Should be fun and certainly a great way to master the craft.

As for second hand gear. I am at a loss in Australia as to what to look for if I want to CNC it later... My main reason for benchtop lathes is weight and size in case I have to move again, not knowing what space I will have available, and I keep thinking that with my bad back and varicose veins - that standing all day or leaning over too far, will result in lots of pain. If I can learn manual and eventually go CNC for much, but not all, work then I hope to make this a hobby for life and not something I have to give up because of the pain.


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## cweber

"The yet-to-be-released CNC lathe has a variable speed motor that will be controlled by the Mach3 software, completely eliminating the 6-step pulley system. I have been informed that this new innovation will transplant to the CNC mills. At this stage, the launch of the CNC Lathe is 9 to 12 months away." [Supplier]

I was wondering whether I should wait for the new Taigs to come out, but the Sherline might fit my purpose for now. How does the Sherline compare with respect to pully/gear arrangements?


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## mikey

Sherline machines have a variable speed DC motor that have a two-step pulley. In the normal position where you will use it most of the time, you have speeds up to 2800 RPM and down to about 70 RPM. When you move the belt to the other step you reduce speed but increase torque. These motors are extremely reliable and long-lasting and provide more torque than you might think, with continuously variable speed and high/low range torque to suit your needs. 

My Sherline is over 15 years old now and the motor is as powerful, smooth and quiet as it ever was. If I need to replace it a brand new one costs only $230.00 US. Not bad for a DC motor with controller. In all those years I have never had an issue with the headstock and their sealed bearings either. 

The bottom line is that Sherline offers a precision mini-lathe or mill that are either CNC, CNC-ready, or fully manual. Most have zero-setting handwheels and replacement parts are very reasonably priced. When an upgraded part is developed it will almost surely be backwards compatible so you can update an older machine. 

I am not that familiar with Taig equipment and I hope someone with a Taig setup will chime in to provide more information for you. I do know that they are highly regarded and capable; if an improved CNC setup is coming then it is well worth looking at. Sherline, on the other hand, is ready to go now.

As for buying a larger machine, you can do that from the beginning but your stated goals really suggest a mini-machine will serve. Whatever you buy be sure it is CNC-ready so getting yourself going will be easier and you won't have to cobble stuff together. My machines are strictly manual and I get along fine as is. I do marvel at the complex shapes the CNC machines can make but am totally happy for the moment. I agree with your approaching machining in manual mode and moving to CNC when you know what you're doing. 

Oh, I did want to mention that a Sherline long-bed lathe can handle a 3" workpiece and up to 5" with risers. (Edit: to be more accurate, you can only get about 1.5" over the carriage without risers.)It can handle a piece up to about 13" long and cut it end to end. It will handle just about any machinable material and is capable of great precision. 

Good luck with your decision. I know it isn't an easy one.


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## SEK_22Hornet

Hi Colin - as a newbie, I purchased a Taig lathe.  I had never used a metal turning lathe.  I did not have very good luck.  the machine was a nice piece of machinery, but as others have said, it lacks several "big lathe" features. I ended up buying a Grizzly 7 x 10 lathe. I notice that you mentioned a lot of negative comments on the Sieg lathes - not all 7 x 10, 7 x 12, etc. lathes come from Sieg. If you will be wanting to cut threads at some point, you might want to reconsider the 7 x  class of lathe. There are improved versions out there from people like Little Machine Shop ( http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_category.php?category=1271799306 ) and Big Dog 7 x 14 ( http://www.bigdogmetalworks.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=779 ). Just a thought.  If you have lathe experience, the Taig my be just fine for you.  If not, you may get a little frustrated with Taig. This is based on my experience only and in no way is intended to belittle the Taig lathe as product.  By the way, I'm still a newbie, but I have been able to come up with some larger machines that suit my applications better than the small machines.  Dan


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## David Kirtley

I have played with both (and bought a SEIG).

The biggest drawbacks are capacity and threading for the Sherline and Taig vs the SEIG (or Real Bull).

Of course that is not what you asked.  

Depends on what you want to do. The biggest difference between the two is philosophical. The Taig is more of a mix and match to roll your own. The Sherline is a more turnkey solution. If you prefer to tinker and modify, the Taig is a nice solution. If you just want a lathe to use as is, go for the Sherline. 

There are people that build a leadscrew, tumbler, and change gears for the Taig.  There are also people that trick out their Sherline lathes. 

I really can't recommend one over the other though. They are both well designed and high quality machines that work well within their design specifications.


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## cweber

David Kirtley said:


> The biggest drawbacks are capacity and threading for the Sherline and Taig vs the SEIG (or Real Bull).



What do people do that own Sherlines (& Taigs I guess) and want to do threading then?

I ignorantly assumed all lathes would facilitate some way to do this...Or to put it another way, please explain what you mean by threading. I anticipate needing to create metric threads into material. I don't yet know about making actual screws but can envisage making threads at the end of long objects...


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## mikey

Threading is more accurately called screwcutting. The work piece is linked to the leadscrew with gears and the cutting tool is mounted to the carriage linked to the same leadscrew. As the leadscrew turns the tool cuts the thread in the desired pitch. 

Sherline sells an attachment that allows you to cut imperial and metric threads. It is hand-driven but it works amazingly well and allows you to cut both internal and external threads. Some guys have figured out a way to do it under power but it isn't really necessary. Taig, as far as I know, doesn't make such an attachment. 

Most full-sized lathes and Asian lathes have screw-cutting ability built into the machine.


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## David Kirtley

cweber said:


> What do people do that own Sherlines (& Taigs I guess) and want to do threading then?
> 
> I ignorantly assumed all lathes would facilitate some way to do this...Or to put it another way, please explain what you mean by threading. I anticipate needing to create metric threads into material. I don't yet know about making actual screws but can envisage making threads at the end of long objects...



Taps and dies for the most part. Even though I can cut screws on my lathe, many times, I go ahead and use taps and dies anyway. With a die holder for the tailstock, it is fast and easy for most normal fastener sizes and I wouldn't do it any other way for the really small ones.


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## mikey

Not disagreeing with you at all, David, but any lathe that cannot cut threads is severely limited in a crucial area and a potential buyer should be aware of this. There are times when you do not have the desired tap or die, or you may  need a class 3 fit for a socket head cap screw or you may want to custom-fit one part to another. Then, the only option is to screw cut it. It's okay to use a tap or die when you choose to but at least you must have the option to do so - unmodified Taig lathes don't give you that choice.


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## David Kirtley

mikey said:


> Not disagreeing with you at all, David, but any lathe that cannot cut threads is severely limited in a crucial area and a potential buyer should be aware of this. There are times when you do not have the desired tap or die, or you may  need a class 3 fit for a socket head cap screw or you may want to custom-fit one part to another. Then, the only option is to screw cut it. It's okay to use a tap or die when you choose to but at least you must have the option to do so - unmodified Taig lathes don't give you that choice.



Exactly.  I just was explaining what the options were without the threading capability built into the lathe.  

The threading attachment for the Sherline is (http://www.sherline.com/3100inst.htm).

They do some threading with the Taig by putting a screw of the wanted pitch on the spindle and using it to move the tool: http://www.cartertools.com/brooketh.html

I guess it would be better than nothing.

Honestly, by the time you start buying or building some of these options, you would be about ready to get one of the cheap SEIG lathes just to handle the threading.

I don't know about the availability (or price) in Oz but another option in that size range are the Proxxon lathes. Gorgeous machines but not for the faint of wallet.

It just boils down to how much you want it to work out of the box vs. how much you want to tinker and build it yourself. Do you want to stay with manual machining or are you planning on heading off to the CNC world. 

If I were leaning towards CNC in that size range, I think I would just get the Sherline CNC ready lathe and get on with my life and not worry about the threading. Let the software do it. If you are planning on staying with manual machining, the 7x12 and longer SEIG and Real Bull lathes are a lot more lathe for the money (with the caveat that they will take more tuning to get to the accuracy of the Taig or Sherline. If you want to tinker and build, I have seen some really awesome Taig lathes that people have built into amazing machines. (Like this one for example: http://modelengines.info/lathes/leadscrew.html )


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## romaink

I have a Taig lathe and a Taig manual mill. My rotary table is made by Sherline. I have been happy with all three items. I think either a Taig or Sherline product would be good for hobby work. 


Richard


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## mikey

David Kirtley said:


> Exactly.  I just was explaining what the options were without the threading capability built into the lathe.



Okay, I misunderstood.


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## martik777

Not knocking the lathe, but how do you taig owners deal with that tiny spindle thru hole?   .343"


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