# Help Me Pick Out Tool Holders



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

I am DONE with my Aloris tool holders. I have had a lot of problems with them, starting with the insert rocking back & forth in the tool holder...when it is tightened! The Aloris tech guy can’t even return a phone call probably because he knows these tool holders have a faulty design. I don’t know about Aloris; their products are expensive & don’t always carry corresponding value.

I want to buy RH and LH tool holders (for turning & facing steel), & I want to give Kennametal a shot. My CXA toolposts can hold a 7/8”, but I am thinking 3/4” X 3/4”.

A typical example project would be up to 3/4” of radial roughing & then trying to get a nice finish.

I don’t know why I always end up working on steel, but I know that I am lazy and want to be able to use a magnet to help clean up.

I won’t have 12L14 in the shop. I use 1018, 1045, 4140 and stuff like that.

I would also appreciate recommendations for specific inserts that fit in the tool holders.

Thanks to those who help me. My lathe is 5 HP, 220V 3 phase.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

I am thinking something like this:



			https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/03568334?cid=ppc-google-New+-+Indexable+Cutting+Tools+-+PLA_sfXWDzkLw___164110844061_m_SM&mkwid=sfXWDzkLw%7Cdm&pcrid=164110844061&rd=k&product_id=03568334&pgrid=37806548060&ptaid=pla-272244691898&gclid=Cj0KCQiA34OBBhCcARIsAG32uvNSfYWEqv0BIrModMGgM2E-I3yAXQXdMRw2O6RjhKTCfFOUjatEqd8aAjYcEALw_wcB


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

I don’t like the Sure Lock/Double Lock designs. I want something more simple and bombproof.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

Yeah . I have the top notches in the basement . What are the issues with the Aloris ?


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

So , you're having issues with the Aloris holders and inserts ? I would hope you are putting quality inserts in them . You wanna buy Kennemetal holders and inserts , you move up to the the big time . Not cheap for the hobbyist . All holders and inserts are pre-sat and are garrenteed ( sp ) .  

Most hobby people don't need this precision . I needed it . You don't throw s**t inserts in an expensive holder , and you don't throw $10 inserts in a shi* holder . You get what you pay for in the long rung . Kennemetal , Valenite , Iscar Carboloy . FT Chinese crap . Only my opinion .


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

Only a minimum level staff member here as you know . The  dead center 6 mt ? Why ? It's an interesting watch but is not useable ,


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Only a minimum level staff member here as you know . The  dead center 6 mt ? Why ? It's an interesting watch but is not useable ,



The MT 6 1/2 dead centers that I made are used weekly. My PM-1660TL has a Morse Taper #6 1/2, & it came with a MT 6 1/2 to MT4 reducing sleeve. That dead center is 2 pieces and only has an MT4 center sticking out. I wanted a single piece, heavy & rigid dead center. Of course, nothing wrong with the sleeve and MT4 as it came from the factory.

I buy my inserts directly from Aloris.

My issues with Aloris, particularly the double lock tool holder are many. Things came to a critical mass when the Aloris insert was rocking back & forth every 2mm while turning M16-2.0 steel all thread. OK, so I thought I had forgotten to tighten the insert. Nope, it was tight. Took it apart, cleaned it, tightened it & the same thing happened. Fail.

So I call Aloris to speak with the tech guy. He is busy, but she said that he would call back in a few hours. Nope, never called back. Fail.

I have spent a LOT on Aloris products, & I think I should be able to ask about the issue with the rocking insert. I would guess that it is wear, but I guess I am left to wonder and move on to doing business with another company.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

I would like to go into detail about the weak design of the Aloris double lock tool holders, but I don’t wish to spend any more of my time on those tool holders. In short, the design seems to succeed in looking good for marketing rather than holding up under work. The tool holders look great: svelte, even aerodynamic, but unnecessarily complex and very weak. Bombproof would be better.

Is anybody able to recommend Kennametal RH & LH tool holders and inserts for them? Maybe I should just call Kennametal directly?


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

These are the tool holders that I wore out in about 100 hours:





__





						Aloris Double-Lock Tool Holder ADS6-3
					






					www.aloris.com
				




I figure that the tapered pin in the middle of the insert wears prematurely, or maybe I am rough on my equipment. I don’t know because I have yet to get in touch with their tech department. Aloris lost a customer today.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

Ok , after my daily 1 hour sleep . I am only here for advise and i get paid nothing for it . Never needed a dead center in a spindle sleeve , number one . What's your point ? Number two . 

Aloris makes the best tool holders and posts . Worldwide and BIC period . Kennemetal is also Best in Class with their holders . Could be a variance in the inserts vs the holders you are experiecincing but I doubt it . Could it be user error ? You tightening up the cam pin the correct direction ? 

I have both Aloris and Kennemetal crap in the basement as well as the shop . Neither have have done me wrong over the 45 years of using them . I can only say that your lost interest in Aloris won't swing any shop owners opinions as to there quality standards . God forgive me , but maybe go Chineisium if you dare .


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Ok , after my daily 1 hour sleep . I am only here for advise and i get paid nothing for it . Never needed a dead center in a spindle sleeve , number one . What's your point ? Number two .
> 
> Aloris makes the best tool holders and posts . Worldwide and BIC period . Kennemetal is also Best in Class with their holders . Could be a variance in the inserts vs the holders you are experiecincing but I doubt it . Could it be user error ? You tightening up the cam pin the correct direction ?
> 
> I have both Aloris and Kennemetal crap in the basement as well as the shop . Neither have have done me wrong over the 45 years of using them . I can only say that your lost interest in Aloris won't swing any shop owners opinions as to there quality standards . God forgive me , but maybe go Chineisium if you dare .



I avoid Chinesium at all costs, & certainly for anything that matters.

I put a dead center in the spindle to turn between centers.

Buy the above linked Aloris Double Lock Tool holder & the inserts that Aloris sells with them and give ‘er a spin (pun intended). I will bet dollars to donuts that those double lock tool holders end up worn out after a few hundred hours. One of mine, purchased in the Summer of 2020, is literally in my garbage can as we speak.

I have these 2 items in my MSC cart, waiting on further responses from the Hobby Machine Forum crew:



			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/64922644
		


and



			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/64922685
		








I looked at some Kennemetal inserts at Carbide Depot’s website, but there were a few too many to choose from (roughing, fine finishing, etc.). I need to do more research.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

I would buy those worn out insert holders , post them for sale below . You are the lathe owner and can use it as warrented . My opinion is what is  worth $.02 . I would look into the insert type before selling .


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> I would buy those worn out insert holders , post them for sale below . You are the lathe owner and can use it as warrented . My opinion is what is  worth $.02 . I would look into the insert type before selling .



I have a RH and neutral that anyone can buy. I also have about 9 new A6 inserts, all Aloris products purchased directly from them.

Here are the links:





__





						Aloris Double-Lock Tool Holder AD6-3
					






					www.aloris.com
				




and





__





						Aloris Double-Lock Tool Holder ADS6-3
					






					www.aloris.com
				




and





__





						Carbide Insert TNMP-332-A6
					






					www.aloris.com
				




This is from my order history:


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

Once again , you need Kenemetals ? Top knotch ? I know where they are .


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Once again , you need Kenemetals ? Top knotch ? I know where they are .



I will happily buy your Kennametal tool holders. I need to turn, face & maybe chamfer. I am also known to turn away from the headstock. Trade me for my Aloris junk & my cash. Text to (707)293-8973. You & I have done this before.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

I have slept for 1 hour tonight/today . I have Kennemetals . I'm running up to the 7/11 and will be back in a few .


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

What size post are you running ?


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

Chirp ?


----------



## bakrch (Feb 9, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> I have a RH and neutral that anyone can buy. I also have about 9 new A6 inserts, all Aloris products purchased directly from them.
> 
> Here are the links:
> 
> ...


Personally,  I would not use these aloris holders for anything but light roughing.  I am sure they are of fine quality, but the design is not heavy duty at all. 

As far as the Kennametal upgrade,  the 35 degree inserts you have in your cart are a relatively weak geometry for roughing.  Stick with a stronger insert shape like 80° for heavy roughing,  and those 35° tools for finishing and light to medium profiling cuts.  Technically,  the 3xx series 35° insert can take up to 3mm radial doc, but I would avoid doing so unless you are turning a more forgiving material.  They tend to chip in steel very easily due to the relatively weak angle. 

You say .75" radial roughing in steel,  and I hope each cut depth is within the capability of your Aloris inserts. 

I suggest having an experienced machinist present, maybe even video your whole process to help us potentially save you some money. 

I, too,  think Aloris is of very high quality and use many of their products over the past 25 years without issue.  Sorry to agree with the previous poster, but I would put my money on user error.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> What size post are you running ?



I was sleeping. I have CXA. I am looking for a 3/4” X 3/4”.


----------



## davidpbest (Feb 9, 2021)

You should be looking at a trigon insert toolholder for roughing.   Like _*this.*_

For finishing, I would recommend an 80° rhombus CCMT style insert toolholder.  Like _*this.*_

The Aloris tool holder you have, and especially the inserts you used to make the dead centers is not designed for that type of work.


----------



## mattthemuppet2 (Feb 9, 2021)

learning how to use a lathe and mill is a very steep learning curve and to add to that you have a large and powerful lathe, which adds an extra dimension. I'm sure you don't like import stuff (other than your lathe) but I'd get a set of basic trigon or CCMT turning tools from Carbide Depot or the like and use those until you have a better feel for what you need. That way if you do break anything then you're not out much.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

Update: 

I called Aloris today & talked to the tech guy. He apologized that he was unavailable yesterday, and he told me to send the failed tool holder back for inspection & possible warranty replacement. This is the tool holder that is in the garbage, so I’m glad I didn’t empty the garbage yet.

I still don’t like the Double Lock/Sure Lock designs, at least for heavy cuts. I will choose a more sturdy tool holder (where the insert either screws in directly or has a big locking lever over it).


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> You should be looking at a trigon insert toolholder for roughing.   Like _*this.*_
> 
> For finishing, I would recommend an 80° rhombus CCMT style insert toolholder.  Like _*this.*_
> 
> The Aloris tool holder you have, and especially the inserts you used to make the dead centers is not designed for that type of work.



I called carbidedepot.com, & I emailed the tech guy William your 2 links above. He came up with a Kennemetal tool holder which is hopefully equivalent to that Seco that you linked to:

(1) MWLNR123B, Kennametal PN 1096362



			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/64922826
		


picture:




(2) MWLNL123B, Kennametal PN 1096357



			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/04419834
		


picture (shows a RH):




(3) SCLCR123, Kennametal PN 1094485



			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/64922230
		


picture:




(4) SCLCL123, Kennametal PN 1094486



			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/04760393
		


picture (shows a RH):


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

For inserts, the carbidedepot.com tech guy recommended the following for machining carbon and alloy steels:




and


----------



## davidpbest (Feb 9, 2021)

Yes, those are the Kennametal equivalents.  Those should serve you well.   Make sure you get inserts suitable for your materials.  The CCMT versions should have a small nose radius for finishing operations.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Yes, those are the Kennametal equivalents.  Those should serve you well.   Make sure you get inserts suitable for your materials.  The CCMT versions should have a small nose radius for finishing operations.



Would you consider a nose radius of .016” to be small? It sounds “medium” to me.

After I told him what I do in the shop, the tech guy was setting me up with inserts for carbon and alloy steels only.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

I followed up with the tech guy & he says that for inserts with a 3/8” inscribed circle radius, 90% of his customers are choosing a .016” nose radius. I’m going to go with that for now.


----------



## davidpbest (Feb 9, 2021)

The rule of thumb for finishing cuts is the depth of cut must be at least half the nose radius of the insert.  So you can answer your own question.  If you plan to take finishing cuts of 0.008" or more, they are fine.  If you try to remove 0.002" with those, the surface finish is likely to be total crap because the insert isn't consistently engaging in the material.  I use that same insert in my shop on lots of varieties of steel, but to hit tight tolerances, I use the balanced method I talked about earlier in this thread with a link to a video on the technique.  I would never try to hit tight tolerance by creeping up on it with light skim passes.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> The rule of thumb for finishing cuts is the depth of cut must be at least half the nose radius of the insert.  So you can answer your own question.  If you plan to take finishing cuts of 0.008" or more, they are fine.  If you try to remove 0.002" with those, the surface finish is likely to be total crap because the insert isn't consistently engaging in the material.  I use that same insert in my shop on lots of varieties of steel, but to hit tight tolerances, I use the balanced method I talked about earlier in this thread with a link to a video on the technique.  I would never try to hit tight tolerance by creeping up on it with light skim passes.



Yes, I came to fully understand the above on my most recent project, with thanks to the Hobby Machine Forum crew.

I sometimes bring in HSS tool bits if I undershoot my target by less than half of the insert nose radius, thereby losing the surface finish achieved with the carbide.


----------



## bakrch (Feb 9, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> For inserts, the carbidedepot.com tech guy recommended the following for machining carbon and alloy steels:
> 
> View attachment 354802
> 
> ...


Those are good options. A smaller lathe might not be able to use the negative rake trigon rougher, but your lathe has plenty of power.

Personally, I don't like 80 degree tools for finishing as they are prone to dragging chips due to the clearance angle hugging the workpiece, but not an issue if you don't mind compensating by angling your QCTP. I like to keep mine square and get clearance from the insert geometry. Different strokes for different folks.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

bakrch said:


> Those are good options. A smaller lathe might not be able to use the negative rake trigon rougher, but your lathe has plenty of power.
> 
> Personally, I don't like 80 degree tools for finishing as they are prone to dragging chips due to the clearance angle hugging the workpiece, but not an issue if you don't mind compensating by angling your QCTP. I like to keep mine square and get clearance from the insert geometry. Different strokes for different folks.



Good point about the 80° tool; I have been working with 60° inserts this whole time which has generally resulted in poor surface finishes.

At this point, I am happy to have a tool holder that will keep the insert securely seated. Of course, there is substantial operator error going on here.


----------



## bakrch (Feb 9, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> Good point about the 80° tool; I have been working with 60° inserts this whole time.
> 
> At this point, I am happy to have a tool holder that will keep the insert securely seated.


If you really want your insert to go a long way you can grab an 80 degree rougher (CNMG4 style), use up the 4 tips then have 4 more tips to use in this type of holder (for reference only).  A total of 8 insert tips to use, with 4 of them unable to turn a square shoulder. 

While that sounds good on paper, you probably will never set this holder up as it would fall very low on the heirarchy of usage. 

Trigon is a healthy compromise with 6 tips.


----------



## benmychree (Feb 9, 2021)

I have used Aloris holders on my 19" Regal for over 40 years now, but not the negative rake diamond shaped one shown, I use the TPG and TNU inserts held in the Aloris combination double ended holders for turning and facing; the TP inserts cut more freely than TN inserts and holders, which I reserve for interrupted cuts.  Turning down threaded stock is a severe operation and should probably be done with a top clamp type holder to eliminate the rocking of the insert.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

Making a trip to the basement in a minute or 2 . Will report back Erik .


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

Holy crud, that was expensive.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

Gotta pay to play !


----------



## Aukai (Feb 9, 2021)

I have a BXA, and need holders for that too, if you find any.


----------



## mmcmdl (Feb 9, 2021)

Have to re-run back down to the post office . Back in a flash . 



Aukai said:


> I have a BXA, and need holders for that too, if you find any.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

Aukai said:


> I have a BXA, and need holders for that too, if you find any.



I have BXA tool holders & inserts that I bought from Precision Matthews. I was planning to use them as a reserve, but I would be willing to sell them.

I will upload some more pictures if you are interested in these import tool holders. I have never used them.


----------



## Aukai (Feb 9, 2021)

I have the kit from PM too. Just want to see if Dave has some in my caliber. Thanks though...


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

Aukai said:


> I have the kit from PM too. Just want to see if Dave has some in my caliber. Thanks though...



That is what I guessed. You and I bought the same BXA 5/8” shank kit when we purchased our lathes.


----------



## JRaut (Feb 9, 2021)

It's your money, and you can do whatever you please with it.

But seems like a bit of a rash decision to just throw all your Aloris stuff out the door and buy all brand-spanking-new Kennametal holders. And a bunch of top-of-the-line (and well overpriced) inserts at ~$25 a pop. Those same inserts can be had from suppliers other than MSC at a small fraction of the cost. Same (probably) goes for the holders.

Are you sure you're going to like these holders? Are you confident that you like a negative rake holder? Does the stuff you're working on lend itself better to positive rake holders // inserts instead? Are you similarly going to have to ditch all your Aloris boring bars too?

Everyone on this forum is here to help make wise decisions. But we can't make your decisions for you. That said, If I were you just trying to get the hang of my new machine, I think I'd play around with HSS for a good, long while before repeatedly dropping hundreds (or likely thousands) of dollars on stuff that could put you back exactly where you are now: frustrated, annoyed, and less financially solvent than you'd prefer.

My two cents anyway.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 9, 2021)

Aloris said that they are probably going to replace the failed tool holder under warranty. The Aloris tool holders may be fine for things other than the hard turning; I’m going to keep them around. Having the insert rocking back and forth was enough for me to find a different tool holder.

Yesterday I got called in from my vacation to work one day (definitely not my idea). I spent that day’s earnings at Carbide Depot. Had I not been called in, I would not have made the Carbide Depot purchase. Also, we have a 6 income household so I don’t have too much $$ pressure. I have nothing else going on other than metalworking.

I completely agree about the HSS. I use it sometimes, and it is always less challenging. My bench grinder isn’t the best, & my grinding wheel is a very cheap one. I can grind HSS on it fine, though.

I don’t know if I will like the new geometry of these Kennametal tool holders or if the different rake will be an improvement.

The Aloris boring & threading bars are A-okay so far.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 15, 2021)

The Kennametal tool holders and inserts arrived today.




Regarding the Aloris Double Lock tool holders, one of them went back to New Jersey for warranty inspection. I took apart the other two, cleaned them & carefully put them back together. One of the inserts still rocks in the tool holder under normal use, and the other one seems to be doing fine so far.




I’m going to try out the Kennametal ones now.


----------



## Dabbler (Feb 15, 2021)

@erikmannie I use all the older generation Kinnemetal cutter holders.  All in the TPNG 300 size.  I've never had a Kinnemetal insert holder fail on me:  most of mine are 40 years old and still going strong.  

On the_ 'if you can afford it_' front, it is a great choice for a no-questions asked kind of holder.  When buying inserts, shop around for 10 packs.  I've found a 3:1 price differential on the inserts I like best.  Buying in less than a pack is alwasy way more than that (unless your distributor is doing you a favour).


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 15, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @erikmannie I use all the older generation Kinnemetal cutter holders.  All in the TPNG 300 size.  I've never had a Kinnemetal insert holder fail on me:  most of mine are 40 years old and still going strong.
> 
> On the_ 'if you can afford it_' front, it is a great choice for a no-questions asked kind of holder.  When buying inserts, shop around for 10 packs.  I've found a 3:1 price differential on the inserts I like best.  Buying in less than a pack is alwasy way more than that (unless your distributor is doing you a favour).



What brand of inserts are you buying, and from whom?

Carbide Depot has been good so far. They have a house brand (made in Switzerland) that I am going to try.

The new tool holders are all that I expected so far.


----------



## Dabbler (Feb 16, 2021)

I'm sure you will be fine with the new holders.  Since you are buying current stuff (I can't even get replacement parts for mine) yours will mostly be ISO standard forms, which means you can buy from anybody.

80% of my inserts are from years ago and aren't available any more - most mine are not ISO or DIN inserts, so my information won't be useful to you.

On the other hand, what you find and what your experiences are will help me when I have to upgrade my holders:  Once I run out, I'll have to buy new insert holders myself!

One  triangle insert I use - ironically - is readily available from bangood - it is a T series 322, but I will have to dig to locate it.  I'm moving all the machines in my shop (again) to make room, and to get a better layout.  The tool holders are buried right now.  when I get there, I'll PM you (it'll be awhile)  for light work and customizing for finish, the offshore inserts work well, if treated with kid gloves


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 17, 2021)

Yesterday I was able to work with the new tool holders & inserts for about 3 hours. The first thing that I noticed is that my issue with achieving a poor surface finish seemed to disappear. The only thing that I had changed was the tool holder and insert. Huge difference.


----------

