# New California Law Bans Products Containing Brass



## PCT

I recently (12-26-16) ordered a rotary table from Grizzly Industrial.  I was informed by Grizzly that my order was canceled due to a new California law which bans shipment of anything to California which contains brass.  I phoned for clarification, the Grizzly rep said that they can no longer ship anything  to CA that has _any_ brass content due to the new law.  Apparently, it is the lead  in brass that is the problem.

Has anyone else had this problem?  Any way to get around it?  Has the "Nanny State" run amok?


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## JimDawson

That law was passed relating to plumbing fixtures.  I didn't realize it was expanded to industrial products, if that's the case, maybe the legislature needs to take a look at what they passed.   That's just crazy.


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## tweinke

Thinking that was not real well thought out.


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## chips&more

That’s a new one on me?????? I hope this is all some kind of miss understanding. There are literally millions of stand-alone products and products with brass components in them…MILLIONS.


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## JimDawson

With a bit more research, I can't find any reference relating to anything except plumbing and some jewelry.  I suggest this is something completely new or Grizzly is mistaken.

EDIT:  I found this.  It could be a labeling issue

_California Notice on Brass

Proposition 65, the Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986, was initiated in California. Under this act, a list of chemicals that are known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm is published annually. This list contains more than 700 chemicals that can be found in consumer and industrial products or services, in addition to chemicals that are released into the environment.

As part of this California law, businesses are required to provide warnings for products that may contain any listed chemical. As such, the following warning will be included on specific product web pages and included with all orders shipped to the state of California:

*WARNING: These products may contain chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm.*

Products most likely to require Proposition 65 warnings include *brass items*, finishing products, items made of PVC. The state of California's advice regarding safe handling of most of these products is to wash your hands after handling.

For more information about Proposition 65, please refer to the following website: http://www.oehha.ca.gov/prop65.html_


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## dpb

If there was a new law banning brass coming into CA, shooters would have heard about it.  Lots of gun laws lately, but I haven't heard anything like this.


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## pdentrem

Looks to me that people in California will no longer have any running water in their homes. Copper pipe, faucets and a multitude of plumbing fittings. 
Pierre


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## David S

I am not aware of a law Banning brass, but rather the law that states that certain products containing lead have to have the warning stated above.  We had to include the warning when we shipped our power tools to California since the PVC power supply cords contained lead.

David


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## Tony Wells

Just thinking guys.....stay within the bound of the "no politics" policy. Everything fine so far, so let's keep it that way please. It's a fair subject of discussion.

I doubt seriously that the legislature has any idea how many products contain lead or brass, so I wonder about the origins of these new regulations.


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## pdentrem

I sent an email to the address on the linked page that Jim Dawson posted asking for clarification.
Pierre


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## 12bolts

I would think grizzly have misunderstood something. Lead free Brass is mandated in Australia now for plumbing, and also, I believe, in California, as well as probably many other states/territories/countries. But as far as I know there is no restriction on the use of leaded brass in other applications.

Cheers Phil


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## pdentrem

My thoughts as well.
Pierre


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## PCT

Thanks for the replies.  I checked the CA government link  sent by Jim Dawson, thanks Jim.  I also called, left a message, and emailed the Prop 65 office asking for clarification.  I hope that the folks at Grizzly are just misapplying the law and will change their policy.  I was looking forward to getting that rotary table! 
I will let you  know what I find out from Sacramento.


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## mksj

As far as I can tell, the mandate as Jim outlined applies to plumbing, or items used in food/drinking consumption. Most brass plumping (newer fittings) are lead free, there is usually a sicker on them specifically stating so. The banning of all brass products would be ludicrous , but then California leads the field in that endeavor (I left the bay area because of cost, taxation and insane regulations).


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## higgite

Just spitballing here, but it sounds to me like maybe Grizzly has chosen to not put up with the hassle of dealing with the CA warning label on their products, hence they can't ship them to CA.

In a similar vein, I mail ordered a fly tying vise a number of years ago which came with a warning label that said, in so many words, don't eat it. I had need to call the manufacturer about something else and asked them about the label while we were talking. He said it was required by CA law and they (the mfr.) didn't have any idea when a vise was boxed at the factory where it might wind up in a retail shop, so they just labeled all of them.

Tom


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## tq60

Awhile back there was a huge bin fill of brass fittings at the scrap yard so got some for air supply.

At a local mom and pop hardware store that is older than dirt they still have all of theirs and posted sign states "not for potable water"

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## Firestopper

I wonder if CA  true intentions are to ban ammunition, the rest is collateral damage so to speak. What a joke!


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## Ulma Doctor

they will soon be banning air and water


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## 4GSR

I still believe that part of Calif. is going to break off (including all of the stupid people that adopt these laws, too) and fall in the ocean as we used to hear in our younger years!  Mike, I hope you on the piece of land that stays put.


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## jpfabricator

You can ship the rotary table to me, in Texas. I don't think we've  banned brass. 
  

Sent from somwhere in east Texas by Jake!


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## JimDawson

firestopper said:


> I wonder if CA true intentions are to ban ammunition, the rest is collateral damage so to speak. What a joke!



You may not be too far off:

_From Kaleo Arms  https://www.kaleoarms.com/pages/faqs

FAQs
Brass Questions:
Where do you ship? Why am I getting an error shipping to a California address?_

_California: In light of the passing of CA Proposition 63, we will continue to accept and ship orders with California billing and shipping addresses through Christmas 2017.  This will allow for successful delivery before the seller portion of Prop 63 takes effect January 1, 2018._


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## Ulma Doctor




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## JPMacG

I don't know about CA, but the European RoHS regulation has an exception for brass.  There is also an exception for high-temperature leaded solder.   I believe they were forced to make these exceptions because there was no suitable lead-free substitute for certain applications.


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## Rick Berk

I have waited my whole life for California to slide in the ocean, you know California is just like a box of cereal - throw away the fruits and the nuts but you still have the Flakes.


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## 4GSR

Ok guys, I know I started this with my comment, but let's not get too carried away.  Lets keep the comments nice!

There are several forum members here that live in Calif. and are good people, so it can't be too bad there.  Of course I would love for them to move to Texas...


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## chips&more

Yes, California will break away. But then the rest of the US will sink and California will be the only state left above water! With all the machine toys to ourselves on a nice retirement island.


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## Reeltor

I recently replaced the 35 year old faucets in my master bathroom and bought high end (at least high end for me) fittings from the same manufacturer.  I was very disappointed when I found that the fittings were mostly plastic, without any brass.  Response from the manufacturer was something to the effect; because of pending legislation in Calif. we no longer produce brass fixtures.  
I agree that Grizzly must be misinterpreting the new law.  I hope with some clarification from the state, they will reconsider and ship to you.


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## RJSakowski

CA Prop 63 deals with control of firearms and ammunition .  As I waded through the morass of text, I saw no specific reference to brass cases under the definition of ammunition.  It may be that the term"cartridge" is being interpreted as including empty cartridge casings.

CA Prop 65 is actually quite old, going back to 1986.  I saw no  reference to brass on the latest list of almost 1000 prohibited chemicals as defined by Prop 65.  

I suspect that Grizzly's legal beagles are just being super conservative


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## chips&more

So if brass can longer be had. Maybe all the brass stock I have will be worth as much as gold! I’ll be rich!


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## 12bolts

PCT said:


> ....... Any way to get around it?........


Ship it to a friend in Arizona.

Cheers Phil


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## pdentrem

I have received a very ambiguous answer from the contact listed in the link from Jim Dawson.

Here it is......since there is nothing in it that is sensitive there should be no issues with my posting it.
Pierre

Thank you for contacting OEHHA regarding Proposition 65.  


Proposition 65 is a law approved by California voters in 1986. It requires the state of California to compile a list of chemicals that cause cancer or reproductive harm and it requires companies with 10 or more employees that expose Californians to chemicals on the list to provide a clear and reasonable warning about the exposure(s). It does not ban or restrict the use (or shipment) of any given chemical. OEHHA compiles the Proposition 65 list, but we do not test products and we do not have any information on which chemicals are in which products. 


Businesses are not required to provide OEHHA with any information regarding their decision to provide a Proposition 65 warning. This decision is made by each business based on its knowledge of the types of chemical exposures it is responsible for causing to individuals.


Because we do not know why a business has chosen to provide a warning, we generally cannot respond to specific questions regarding product safety, the reason a warning is being given, or the listed chemical for which the warning is being given. We also cannot answer questions regarding how long and at what level the chemical exposures have been occurring. The responses to these questions should be requested from the business providing the warning. The Proposition 65 list of chemicals is available at http://www.oehha.ca.gov/prop65/prop65_list/Newlist.html.


The purpose of Proposition 65 is to notify consumers that they are being exposed to chemicals that are known to cause cancer and/or reproductive toxicity. Consumers can decide on their own if they want to purchase or use the product. A Proposition 65 warning does not necessarily mean a product is in violation of any product-safety standards or requirements. For additional information about the warning, we recommend that you contact the product manufacturer.


For chemicals that are listed as causing cancer, the "no significant risk level” is defined as the level of exposure that would result in not more than one excess case of cancer in 100,000 individuals exposed to the chemical over a 70-year lifetime. In other words, a person exposed to the chemical at the “no significant risk level” for 70 years would not have more than a “one in 100,000” chance of developing cancer as a result of that exposure.


For chemicals that are listed as causing birth defects or reproductive harm, the “no observable effect level” is determined by identifying the level of exposure that has been shown to not pose any harm to humans or laboratory animals. Proposition 65 then requires this “no observable effect level” to be divided by 1,000 in order to provide an ample margin of safety. Businesses subject to Proposition 65 are required to provide a warning if they cause exposures to chemicals listed as causing birth defects or reproductive harm that exceed 1/1000th of the “no observable effect level.”


Other state public health officials and federal government agencies are responsible for regulating product safety. For example, the California Department of Public Health (link is external) issues recalls of food products found to be unsafe. The federal U.S. Food and Drug Administration (link is external) regulates food, drug, cosmetic and medical device products. Other types of consumer products, including toys, jewelry, personal care products, and other non-food items, are regulated by the federal Consumer Product Safety Commission (link is external), which also may issue recalls for products found to be unsafe. Finally, the California Air Resources Board (link is external) may ban products that harm the air we breathe.


I hope this information is helpful.                                                                                       


Kind regards,


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## 4GSR

Clear as mud....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## PCT

_News from the CA state capitol and Grizzly._ I just got a phone call from the California Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment  (OEHHA) that administers CA Prop 65.  I explained my situation, and they confirmed what others have said on this thread:  " Proposition 65 is not a ban or restriction, but only a warning requirement."  Of course they couldn't comment on Grizzly's motivation for cancelling my order, but said that state law only requires  approved written warning be included with products that contain any of the OEHHA  list of harmful components. Which, by-the-way is a big list.

I called Grizzly and explained what I had learned to a very nice customer service rep who said that Grizzly has decided not to ship products containing brass to California, and other states, (she mentioned some parts of Ohio) not because of State law, but because there are now so many county and city regulations throughout California  that restrict brass, lead, etc. that they (Grizzly) have decided not to bother to ship these products to California altogether.  The rep went on to say that this policy has been in place for some time.


So, I guess I will find a rotary table from another source.  Thanks for all of the input!

Paul


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## PCT

Thanks Pierre for posting the Prop 65 information.  I sent my blurb before I saw yours.

Regards,

Paul


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## JimDawson

That's amazing.  If I say any more I'll be swerving into politics and we are not going there.


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## 12bolts

Grizzly's stance on this amazes me! They must think, (they should know), that their California market is quite small

Cheers Phil


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## silence dogood

It has got to be Grizzly, otherwise both Sherline and Little Machine Shop would be moving to another state.  Unless these companies don't use brass in their products, which I find hard to believe.


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## pdentrem

Likely they supply a sticker or sheet as required by the legislation, which Grizzly is unwilling to do.
Pierre


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## RJSakowski

So I guess that Grizzly won't be selling any lathes in CA because of the brass oilers.  Or any of the  other multitude of their products that contain a bit of brass.  I wonder how long it will take for Mr. Balolia to realize he has just killed a major market.


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## Terrywerm

I had some thoughts on this subject, but it gets too close to politics, so all I am going to say is: UNREAL!!!


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## 4GSR

Back in the 1990's I worked for a company down here that was bought out by Baker Hughes.  By the time their HSE department was finished with their assessment of the property, they made us get rid of several metals we used for manufacture of some of the parts we supplied to the oilfield.  One of those metals was Beryllium Copper.  We had over 2000 lbs of it on inventory in raw material and finished parts.  Any orders in process in house were cancelled.  The material was quarantined.  We could not even touch it!  When it was wrote off the books, a couple of us were going to haul off one of the 4" OD bars of it and take it home.  No way in heck that was going to happen!  They had a envirometal company come in and properly haul it off.  What a bunch of idiots!


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## NCjeeper

PCT said:


> Has the "Nanny State" run amok?


A long time ago. Escape when you can.


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## JimDawson

4gsr said:


> One of those metals was Beryllium Copper.




I kind of went through the same thing at a die casting company I used to work for.  A ''chip maker'' (I'm not going to call the guy a machinist) thought he was going to die if he had to turn the beryllium copper shot pistons.  He called OSHA in for air testing in the machine shop.  He wore an air monitor for a whole shift while turning shot pistons.  The test result:  Not Detected.  He darn near smacked his head on the lathe chuck trying to get the air monitor closer to the work.  The only way you could ingest that stuff would be to powder it and snort it or sprinkle it on your sandwich because it drops out so fast.


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## Tony Wells

Went thru a similar with BeCu a year years ago. Granted, pure Be is highly toxic and should never be handled with bare hands, and of course any machining of it is very hazardous unless you are set up for it. However, pure Be is very rarely used for anything. The amount of Be in BeCu typically found in machined parts is 2% (Alloy 25). And skin contact poses so little a hazard it requires no special precautions. We had one guy on a little 18n quick-turn who was convinced he was having a problem with contact dermatitis from the particle in the coolant in the machine he was running and handling the wet parts. 

So we hired and independent Industrial Hygienist out of Dallas to come down and have a look. They took coolant samples from his machine and all the others where BeCu had been machined, they hung sniffers around all the burr hands' necks to take air samples where they worked. I was actually a little concerned about their exposure, myself. They spent all day with air motors and flap wheels, scotchbrite discs, files and sandpaper....all things that made fine particles (especially compared to a lathe). Their hands were black and green by the end of the day. Of course they washed before eating and smoking, but still.....some of it had to have gotten into their bloodstream, in my opinion. After a week, all the tests were done and we were nervously waiting on the results, under threat of a lawsuit from the lathe operator. 
He was 100% clean. The coolant (one of the Trim products, iirc) was not a solvent for Be, and any particulate matter was too heavy to stay in suspension, so his skin tests were negative. My burr guys were, to my amazement, also clean. All well below OSHA exposure limits. We had no problem with machining BeCu. As it turned out, we had Brush-Wellman, NGK, and one other mfg of BeCu material furnish us with all the appropriate safety documentation during this period, and it all pointed to the hazardous operations the actually DO exist when working with it. We didn't do any of them. Most were more closely connected with the creation of the alloy to begin with, so it was well upstream of us in the first place. If you melt it, yes the fumes are hazardous. If you weld it, yes, the fumes are hazardous.....I forget the actual size of the particulate that was the threshold for concern, but it was on the order of smoke size . And I know of no machine shops that deal with it at a hazardous level.  IMO, the concern is much overblown. I spent literally days researching and in meetings about it, and that is my opinion. 

I love machining the stuff actually. Not lately, but I had picked up several jobs for other shops who got scared of it, from all over the country. It's expensive, but I like it. I have a good friend who is a major distributor of it up in WI. In fact, he owns a smelter in Italy where it is made. 

Oh the operater was allergic to the coolant, so we moved him to a machining center.....no more problem. He quit not long after.


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## minions

RJSakowski said:


> So I guess that Grizzly won't be selling any lathes in CA because of the brass oilers.  Or any of the  other multitude of their products that contain a bit of brass.  I wonder how long it will take for Mr. Balolia to realize he has just killed a major market.



I bought a lathe, mill, collet chuck among other things from grizzly this year- after reading this thread I'm done with them.  Here's an idea, don't ship only to the counties that don't allow leaded brass but do not discriminate  against an entire state.


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## jbolt

Ahhh... welcome to my world.


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## RJSakowski

With a degree in chemistry, I can appreciate the dangers of some materials, but sometimes, IMO, the health and safety gurus just go totally overboard.  

Many states have banned disposing of CRT's in landfills because of the leaded glass used for the faceplate to prevent x rays generated during operation of the CRT from reaching viewers.  I can thuink of no better way to sequester lead than to dissolve it in glass.  A small amount may leach from the surface of the glass but the bulk of it is contained.  A material capable of maintaining a high vacuum for years will not be permeable to any solvent that does not dissolve the glass itself.

You had best dispose of your Waterford crystal since it runs around 25% lead content.  Remember, you can't landfill it though.

BTW, I happen to live in a part of the country where you can pick lead in the form of the mineral galena off the ground.


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## RJSakowski

minions said:


> I bought a lathe, mill, collet chuck among other things from grizzly this year- after reading this thread I'm done with them.  Here's an idea, don't ship only to the counties that don't allow leaded brass but do not discriminate  against an entire state.


Has anyone seen a list of counties, cities, or other municipalities that ban leaded brass?  I did a search on-line and came up with nothing.


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## Tony Wells

As close as we've gotten to any of that here in Texas is the banning of leaded solder used in potable water plumbing (afaik). With the advent of Pex tubing systems, not a lot of soldering is done anyway. But nationwide, in concert with certain world organizations, the RoHS act has affected the solder we use in electronics work as well, and I'm sure many of you know. I stocked up well with as much as I could find and buy of the 63/37 and 50/50 before the supplies disappeared. I really dislike the "lead free" solder. Higher temps seem to help flow, but of course complicate delicate repairs. I don't use it unless I have to, like for the hospital work.


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## quickcut

I suppose we could ask what substitutes there are (for this brass) and who supplies them.


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## Firestopper

Tony Wells said:


> Went thru a similar with BeCu a year years ago. Granted, pure Be is highly toxic and should never be handled with bare hands, and of course any machining of it is very hazardous unless you are set up for it. However, pure Be is very rarely used for anything. The amount of Be in BeCu typically found in machined parts is 2% (Alloy 25). And skin contact poses so little a hazard it requires no special precautions.



I have a set of vintage (80's) Ping irons made from BeCu with a sweet spot the size Texas, unfortunately, I never could keep the ball straight. Perhaps the balls I was using where made in CA hahah.


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## Tony Wells

Yup lol.....trying their level best to get away from the scary beryllium.

One use I remember for it (in the oilfield) is a special "window" in one or two of the downhole measuring tools. It is Gamma Ray transparent, and although GR penetrates many things, there aren't many things that have virtually no effect on the properties of the GR. So they create a "window" that can take the pressure, and shoot through it, and sometimes a second to cover a sensor to receive the Gamma reflection............anyway, we are waaay OT lol


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## chips&more

So, I guess no more solder with lead in it? What about all the electronics with solder joints? What about the free machining steels with lead?

And it’s in the news today. Children of Oakland California have high concentrations of lead in their bodies. Experts think it’s from the old houses built before 1980 with lead paint.


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## pdentrem

We still make 63/37 and other lead alloys for industry.
Pierre


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## jim18655

US Beryllium had place near Hazleton, PA and when they shut it down it was gated off with guards patrolling the property. It was on the property that was formerly the Lehigh Valley RR roundhouse where my grandfather worked and next to the patch town my mother grew up in. If you do a web search for beryllium and Hazleton you'll find some news articles about the health hazards workers were exposed to. Too bad, it had some of the best huckleberry picking in the area.


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## Tony Wells

Oh there is still leaded solder, just restrictions on where you can use it. So since overall use has diminished, cost has gone up. So if you find a deal on some and feel that you need it, it doesn't hurt to have a little stash. I know some guys that went out and bought 30-40 lbs of the stuff. I guess they plan on a lot of soldering. I don't plan on using all that much so I'm not going to hoard it to that extent. I did plumb my house with copper, and I did opt for 50/50.....I just like the way it flows so much better. The threat of brain damage is primarily to children with developing brains, so that's not a problem in my place. 

 Not to try to shoot holes in any study or anything, but I had a cousin (second actually), an older guy who has since passed at a ripe old age, and not from anything related to lead, who worked on radiators, first for others and then his own shop.....I think about 60 years worth of exposure, all with no special precautions. When all this lead scare and restrictions came along, he went through a battery of tests...several in fact over several years, as did his son (3rd cousin?) who had always worked in their own shop. I can't even begin to guess at how much solder they went thru over all those years. Literally tons. All the tests showed normal to actually below standard blood-lead levels. I was actually more concerned with the acid they used during the process. But no health problems from anything related to the work ever showed up. Maybe just some people are more susceptible to it, and for them the regulations do protect them and need to be there. But I know for a fact that it is not a universal risk.


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## pdentrem

I know we a straying from the original topic, but the real source of lead was the gasoline, that was leaded. Washed our hands in it, breathed the fumes, lead on the surfaces that we touched and played on etc etc. A friend who has now passed on, was a director of GNB. They made submarine batteries for example. The government was all hot under the collar at one time about lead escaping their site. Well the outcome of the testing was the water coming off their property was cleaner than the rain water the tester had collected from a sample collection trap that the tester had himself put on the roof! Today the sources of lead are much less common.
Pierre


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## British Steel

JPMacG said:


> I don't know about CA, but the European RoHS regulation has an exception for brass.  There is also an exception for high-temperature leaded solder.   I believe they were forced to make these exceptions because there was no suitable lead-free substitute for certain applications.



Leaded Solder's still available, the exceptions are mostly for Military, Aviation and Medical electronics - in other words, where reliability is Important and lead-free's inherent creep and crystallisation properties will render (consumer?) products unusable after a very few years...

The took the Cadmium out of silver solder though, years earlier, and it doesn't flow like it used to 

Dave H. (the other one)


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## chips&more

Yes, the lead free solder doesn’t flow the same when doing copper plumbing as does leaded solder. But, I have found that the right kind of flux has a lot to do with how well the lead free flows. And proper heat. And making sure all is very clean! Then no problems!


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## vtcnc

RJSakowski said:


> So I guess that Grizzly won't be selling any lathes in CA because of the brass oilers.  Or any of the  other multitude of their products that contain a bit of brass.  I wonder how long it will take for Mr. Balolia to realize he has just killed a major market.



The ninth largest economy in the world at last check...


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## jpfabricator

In the theatre of my mind I see a shady character in a dark trench coat lingering at the opening to a questionable alley. He paces shifting back and forth and hisses in a loud whisper to passerby " Hey buddy, you want to buy some brass?" 

Sent from somwhere in east Texas by Jake!


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## Ianagos

Why are they using brass in a rotary table? Bushings should be bronze no? Maybe a worm gear that should also be bronze?  Or am o mixed up on which has the better bearing qualities?


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## N2XD

Cartridge Brass (260 Alloy) does not contain lead by design. 360 alloy brass has lead in it for better machining ability.


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## juiceclone

Can't help but look on in wonder...which has their head further UP .it... Griz or Cali... In all honesty, I long ago came to expect this sort of stuff from Cali,   but to hear of the attitude of Griz ....that's a puzzle!


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## Tim9

I really think SOME BOZO at Grizzly has misinterpreted the California law.  The ban is only for leaded brass plumbing fixtures. And...Its been around for a few years. Leaded brass plumbing has been faded out for the past decade. Same with leaded solder for copper fitting. It has to do with the EPA and lead contaminated drinking water. 

   Brass has not been banned. NO WAY. Just think about the marine industry. They could not live without brass.


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## gjmontll

For what it's worth...Here in Escondido, California, my Home Depot still stocks brass nuts, bolts, and screws. Also brass plated door hardware (hinges, handles, etc). And in the plumbing, brass fittings and valves - these are marked as being lead-free.


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