# Save me from myself, please!



## westerner (Nov 21, 2017)

So- my Millrite is up and running. See my earlier thread in this forum. (Big "high five" to the folks here and at Automation Direct". Bought the GS 2, easy programming, no sweat. GOOD manual) 
Now that is done, I am on to repairing my old, WORN OUT,12x36 craftsman/atlas lathe. The bed is worn both on carriage areas, and tailstock areas, of the ways. I am aware of the various options, concerning repair. Am I insane, or just overly optomistic, about my chances to make it better, not RIGHT, but BETTER, by attempting a repair of the bed on the mill? Just take it down, or epoxy back to original, or grind it, or SCRAP it? Max wear about .004 on carriage area, next to the headstock. I aint never gonna get a contract from NASA, I am just intrigued by my newfound options, and the challenge. I look forward to hearing this varied group weigh in. Pull NO punches, please.


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## markba633csi (Nov 21, 2017)

Metal-filled epoxy would be a possible approach, much easier to build up and mill smooth than doing the full grind and all the work that entails.
Still a bit of work but maybe worth it for your situation- but we are talking last-gasp approaches here LOL
Why not just replace the bed with one in better shape?
Mark S.
ps I'm referring to just epoxying the top of the ways and nothing else.


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## brino (Nov 21, 2017)

Wow. That's ambitious.
I bet you'd learn a lot in such an undertaking.

Let's talk specifics:

Is your mill good enough?
Does it have the table length and X-feed to allow you to mill the length of the entire lathe bed in one pass?
Does it have the enough Y-feed to allow you to do the fronts and backs of the V's _and_ all the flats without disturbing the setup?
Does it have the accuracy? I would expect a tool being used to make/fix another tool to be much more accurate than the tool I am trying to make/fix. How much better? Maybe not 10x better, but at least 5x better. Say you want your lathe bed down to 2 thou. So by my math I would want the mill controllable down to 0.0004 inch or better over the entire length of the bed.

Is a milling process good enough?
Although I have seen some amazing finishes produced thru milling alone(by other people), I'd doubt that you could create a surface significantly better than what it is now by milling alone. I would expect some precision grinding or scraping to be required.

Basically, all the above is meant to say that I would not attempt anything so grand until I knew that it had a reasonable chance of success.
I would first have to convince myself that I would not make the lathe any worse.
Some kinda machinist Hippocratic oath......

Run some tests first. Find a stable piece of material as long as your lathe bed and try milling it to thickness. How did that work out? 
I also wonder about clamping distortion and perhaps even thermal distortion.

I am not even sure of the exact wear in my lathe.......but I can produce the parts I need at the required accuracy.

-brino


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## Bob Korves (Nov 21, 2017)

Your only real options of repairing the bed are by having it professionally ground, or by scraping it yourself.  Scrap is when it gets melted down.  Scraping is when you remove metal bit by tiny bit with a scraper and scrape the geometry and the flatness correct again.  IMO, the Atlas lathes are not worth that large amount of money or tedious work, so I would sell it and start over with a better candidate.  But, that is just me, lots of others would love to gold plate an old inexpensive lathe that was not that special when it was new.  Bringing the Atlas/Craftsman lathe back to like new is totally possible, if desired.  Flak vest <ON>.


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## Holescreek (Nov 21, 2017)

I hand scraped a .025" bow out of my grandfathers Atlas  working a few hours a day for about a week. You should be able to get .004" out in a day.  Don't bother trying to use the mill, you'll just make things worse.


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## menace (Nov 21, 2017)

Why don't you just use some well placed machine jacks under  lathe bed where the wear is ? The Atlas is flexible enough that you might be able to correct most of the worn area without much hassle? Look for a more robust replacement lathe in the meantime ! Hope this helps.


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## Holescreek (Nov 21, 2017)

The bed isn't the weak point of these lathes, the gears are.  Good luck bending the bed right where you need it.


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## Holescreek (Nov 21, 2017)

And no, if it weren't for the sentimental value I wouldn't have spent the time I did restoring the lathe. The bed wear was .025", the carriage wear was about .012" worn underneath.  The compound was somewhere around .006".  I had to step grind the carriage retainer to get the proper clamp pressure.  I'd intended to give the lathe to a family member but onc eit was complete, no one wanted it that wouldn't immediately sell it.


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## Dabbler (Nov 21, 2017)

So I have just donned my Kevlar... How about this?  Map exactly the deviations in your bed, every .250.... The use the lathe.  When you need to turn accurately, you know the offsets the will occur - you can even find this out by turning an aluminum bar between centers...  You will learn some neat skills, get used to lathe operation, then you can sell it to another beginner when you can afford a better lathe. 

Many jobs can tolerate the .002 deviation  in diameter caused by a .004 dip in the ways.  If you use positive rake HSS tools, you can tolerate .004 below center (you might even bias the tools to be +.001 above center, helping to minimize the deviation).  Until you regularly need to do work more accurately, I wouldn't sweat it.  It does take some time and experience to learn enough to outgrow a little atlas.  Heck, some guys never outgrow a South Bend 9/9a or even smaller less rigid lathes!  Clickspring on youtube does incredible work on a tiny lathe, for instance...


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## Doubleeboy (Nov 21, 2017)

A lot of times when folks realize their nifty old lathe turns unintentional tapers they figure its bed wear.  A lot of times its a combination of bed wear and wear to the carriage top where it rides on the ways.  If the carriage has wear it is very easy for the carriage to lift a bit.  I have seen on more than one lathe that if you use a high positive rake cutting tool much like Mikey showed in his great sharpening thread you lesson push off of the work, by lessoning this resistance the carriage does not lift  or rock as much and you can now do closer tolerance work.  Before I got too excited about how bad my ways were I would make sure I had very sharp cutting tool sharpened using Mikey's article as a guide and see if I could turn more accurate work that way.  Then following Dabblers advice above you may be able to find some happy spots on lathe where you can do very accurate work when needed.


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## Bob Korves (Nov 22, 2017)

Dabbler said:


> Many jobs can tolerate the .002 deviation in diameter caused by a .004 dip in the ways.


A .004" dip in the ways makes a minuscule change in the diameter the lathe turns, the relative magnitude depending on work diameter.  The vertical change is at the side of the round work, and near center the face that is getting cut is nearly vertical, inaccuracy changes little with small deviations, but gets relatively worse more and more quickly with severe wear and with smaller diameters.  Still, lots of highly accurate parts are made on lathes with considerable wear in the ways.  There are several ways (and combinations) to compensate for the wear while using the lathe.

The first thing to do is to carefully map out the actual wear in the bed, using the correct methods.  Until then, we are just talking "maybe and what if."


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## Dabbler (Nov 22, 2017)

I agree.  I was trying to make a similar point.  I should have not mention a specific, but it was the max error I calculated for 1/8" diameter.


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## westerner (Nov 22, 2017)

Gentlemen- I thank this august group for the input. Turns out I could have left MY flak jacket in the closet!
Brino- good thoughts. I have enough "y", and about 1/2 the "x" required. Muddies THAT water significantly, I know.
Dabbler- your approach was, and still is, my original thought and intent. Most likely, that is how I will proceed. My curiosity and my desire to eliminate as much chatter as I can, on this admittedly flexy lathe, led me to dig out my kevlar.
Mark- I am at last gasp. I have inquired far and wide, no luck. Many beds better than mine have been turned into Chinese rebar. Shipping costs essentially eliminate the "used bed" market. I have several feelers out, and I am patient. Again, I have no pending aerospace contracts. LOL.
Holescreek- Indeed, that is the reason for the title of this post. I am a professional "fixer of things", and I completely understand your's and Brino's concept of "do no HARM"! My lathe has considerable sentimental value as well. BTW, beautiful work, and machine. "Expense vs. projected value be damned" has supported MANY industries. Man after my own heart!


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## westerner (Nov 22, 2017)

Double e- sound advice. I have just enough knowledge and experience in this line to be DANGEROUS, hence, again, the title of the thread. I will apply your technique. Thanks to you all!


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## Silverbullet (Nov 22, 2017)

Atlas LATHES are not what you call precision LATHES, yes they can do nice work , but there just not made to be that precise. I owned a 12" many many years ago and it was well taken care of but it wouldn't produce parts to pass inspection. So I moved up to a Sheldon , what a much better and stronger lathe. So if your using a hobby lathe that's what you bought , if you work with lots of indicators to keep track on all movements or non movement you can turn out nice things . As they use to say YA can't turn a pig's ear into a silk purse.


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## westerner (Nov 22, 2017)

Silverbullet- I appreciate, and understand, your take on this. At work, we have a VERY nice, mid 80's, lightly used, South Korean lathe of similar work envelope. That CARRIAGE weighs what this ENTIRE machine does. It makes me LOOK like I know what I am doing. It may, one day, go to auction. Perhaps I will follow it there. Gonna need a MUCH bigger VFD, or RPC. Until then, I will make do with what I have, work it with the great advice given here, and accept the results. Thank you!


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## umahunter (Nov 24, 2017)

Just a thought don't know if it'd work but they make a tape for repairing worn ways


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## TakeDeadAim (Nov 25, 2017)

There are a number of "build up" materials for lathes.  The complicating factor is they are designed primarily for use in building the surfaces back up to align centers on the lead screws, and putting adjustment thickness back into worn gibs.  In the case of a lathe with .004" wear the less expensive yet labor intensive solution is to scrape the ways.  

On the machine in question the ways are not hard so removing that amount of material is not difficult.  I think the bigger challenge is you need some rather expensive tools to do it.  Unless you have a surface plate and appropriate straight edges, test indicators and scraping tools or the ability to borrow them, cost to purchase may exceed the value of the completed project.


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## westerner (Nov 25, 2017)

Yes, sir! I am weighing the various options presented. The "point of diminishing returns" is not lost on me. I suspect I will simply use the lathe "as is", following Dabbler's advice. That said, I will undergo a knee surgery in a couple weeks, and will have 2-3 weeks to stare at, sceme and contemplate this. I will do my best to avoid doing any harm to MYSELF, my pocketbook, OR the lathe. Idle hands, blah, blah, blah.....No powertools while under the influence of pain meds, rest assured!


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## TakeDeadAim (Nov 25, 2017)

Ive got tools of my dad's that Id not trade for the latest and greatest tool on the market, It's what they mean to me and the memories are worth a lot.  No one, certainly not me, can judge what your lathe is worth to you.  I really was just responding to bring up what the materials are for and what it takes to use them and the needs and costs involved.  

Good luck on the knee surgery,  I'll keep a positive thought for you.  Having been though more surgery than anyone should endure I suggest laying in a supply of interesting reading and lots of YouTube.


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## Dabbler (Nov 25, 2017)

Hey westerner, good luck with the surgery!  When I had mine, I over did it a tiny bit, and really really suffered for it - please take all the rest that is recommended!

Good luck with your Atlas, as well.


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## westerner (Nov 25, 2017)

Thank you, gentlemen, for the advice, and kind wishes. I have A BUNCH of cartridge reloading to do, and a pile of movies. Not to mention all the surfing on this and other subjects. And fear not, no RUI (reloading under the influence) either!


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## brino (Nov 25, 2017)

@westerner 

Here's a PDF to download and take along for your long waits and recovery period:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/connelly-on-machine-tool-reconditioning.41802/
It's BIG; 600 pages, in 6 parts at the link.

To some this is considered "the bible" of scraping, and repairing ways (dovetail and flat surfaces), alignment, etc.

They still try to sell it in the back of the new machining magazines for $100!

All my best wishes for your surgery and recovery.

-brino


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## Scruffy (Nov 25, 2017)

To me sometimes it’s not about the money. It’s the satisfaction of when your done and it works as planned.
Many not like a new machine but it’s yours and you did the work.
Thanks ron


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## westerner (Nov 25, 2017)

Dang, Brino! THAT should keep me out of the bingo parlor for AT LEAST  2-3 weeks! Thanks.
Ron- Hit the nail on the head, you did! I recognize that this machine is limited WHEN NEW! My uncle broke in on this very machine 50ish years ago. Learned the basics, and then some. He left that shop 45ish years ago. Since then, it has been sadly, and seriously, neglected. What I learn in my time with it is a tribute to him and his skills. It is far less about what what the LATHE is, or could be, capable of. More about advancing MY capabilities in the spirit of his memory. Thank you.


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## westerner (Nov 25, 2017)

Just surfed thru the "beater truck" thread in the member's hangout. The whole thing ties in here. Many in my family are cursed with an irrational affection for old iron too. This lathe, my uncle's 55 jeep wagoneer, my own (2) 71 F-250 4x4s, and my 71 Bronco. Not to mention my brother's "collection". The satisfaction of keeping them alive FAR outweighs the sacrifice involved. That said, I cannot compete in the "beater truck" thread. Some of those guys could school ME on "satisfaction"! LOLOL. My hat is off, and covering my heart.


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## westerner (Dec 17, 2017)

An update, gentlemen. As stated earlier, I measured .004 bed wear. Further inspection reveals another .006 in the underside of the carriage. Shim under gib here adds ANOTHER .010.! Far side of back ways worn .004 at the headstock. Small wonder I found a little chatter. 
So- I have spent some time measuring, and scheming. I built a scraper and jig. Disassembled the carriage, and used it, with careful gib adjustment, to guide my progress. "Y" play is now consistent full lenght. Carriage vertical, "Z" I believe, has been reduced to .004 at headstock, to nil about halfway towards tailstock. 
Is it RIGHT? Absolutely not.
Is it RESTORED? Well, kinda.
Is it BETTER? By a whole bunch.
Was it tedious, satisfying, and CHEAP? Oh, my, YES!
Please know that all of your input was considered thru all of this. I did a test run on a scrap piece, on the mill, as I originally had proposed. As Brino kindly suggested, "A bit ambitious"...Not a small understatement, gently delivered, greatly appreciated.


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## Dabbler (Dec 18, 2017)

well done!  It takes some dedication to restore an old lathe, particularly one needing scraping...
What you have now is quite manageable!  Congratulations!


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## brino (Dec 19, 2017)

@westerner

Congratulations on the success!
You made the lathe better and must have learned a bunch....win-win

I'd appreciate some pictures of your "scraper and jig".....and also any advise on measurement techniques and reference material you found useful.
Thanks

-brino


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## westerner (Dec 19, 2017)

Brino- pics are coming. My internet connection at home is 'spotty', to be kind. Our good friends at Verizon decided to 'allocate assets' to more lucrative areas lately.  That said,  let me say this in advance- ever heard the saying "poor folks have poor ways"? When I present what I have done,  even the DEAD purists will shudder! Ron's post above captures quite eloquently my approach in full!


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## westerner (Jan 12, 2018)

So- may I present the 'hillbilly' lathe repair/restoration. See the attached pic of one of my techniques.  First, lets get some terminology straight- this lathe has 2 FLAT ways. The one closest to the operator is FRONT. The one farthest from the operator is BACK. That orientation will persist as I discuss the various FACETS of the ways.
  As said before, this lathe was sloppy, to be kind, when I met it. In my 'hillbilly' attempt to address that, I entered into my very first attempt to SCRAPE any machine into something better.
  The jig pictured is for the 'back' side of the BACK way. Addressing play in the 'x' direction, as the carriage moves along in the 'y' direction. 
  The jig built for addressing the 'z', vertical play in the carriage, has, regrettably,  been repurposed, but is similar.
  Meausurement of either axis involves a 6" caliper,  a test indicator, carefull employment of gib adjustment, and a pantload of patience and observation. I will present further 'technique', loosely termed, very soon.


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## westerner (Jan 12, 2018)

The scraper employed is a 3/8 wide carbide, brazed to a piece of HSS. A lathe tool, obviously  repurposed.  Told ya, I am a poor hillbilly  with limited resources, yet a strong desire to better his machine AND his skills.


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## brino (Jan 12, 2018)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with inexpensive tools that do the job.
Looking forward to more!

How's the knee?

-brino


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## westerner (Jan 13, 2018)

The knee is coming along nicely. Thanks for asking!
So, I started with the back facet of the BACK way. I assumed that facet was far more worn than the front of the FRONT way. Using a 6" mic, I found the deepest wear. I scraped the rest of the back of the BACK to match, best I could measure. Then, I tightened the gib, one of 4 adjusters only, and fine tuned the facet by judging how tight the carriage was to move. All this done with the carriage VERTICAL gibs loose.
  For the carriage VERTICAL, it was a little tougher.  On this machine, gib adjustment is done with shims between the top of the gibs and the underside of the carriage.  The gibs extend UNDER the bottom of the ways. The top of the FRONT way had a .004 groove worn in it. Again, I assumed the top of the front way was worn far more than the bottom. I found the area of greatest wear, and scraped a groove into the rest of the way to match. Fine tuned the depth of the groove in the same manner as before.  I had to mill the underside of the carriage where the shim lands to allow adjustment of the carriage down into the groove.
  Certainly NOT how the real guys do it. I did not address the area of the carriage that runs in the groove in the FRONT way. Nor did I address the BACK way at all, in the vertical.
  All in all, the improvement is satisfying. Chatter is greatly reduced. Accuracy is manageable, for my needs so far.
  I will start another thread on my idea about grinding lathe tools. My bench grinder, and my sharpening skills, will not get these tools to the keen edge I know will help this STILL floppy lathe.


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## brino (Jan 13, 2018)

westerner said:


> I will start another thread on my idea about grinding lathe tools. My bench grinder, and my sharpening skills, will not get these tools to the keen edge I know will help this STILL floppy lathe.



Have you seen @mikey's post "Models for grinding HSS Lathe Tools"? 
If not, it's here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/models-for-grinding-hss-lathe-tools.62111/
It is a loooong read, but very useful on the topic.

-brino


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## westerner (Jan 15, 2018)

Brino- thanks for the link! I read Mikey's entire thread over the past few days. What an amazing wealth of knowledge here! My appreciation and thanks to all who have contributed.


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