# Can You Over Accessorize?



## wrmiller (Sep 8, 2015)

This is not a a small machine, as bench mills go, but I seem to be running out of room to hang stuff. 

In the pic I'm playing with my new FogBuster while making some steel and aluminum parts. Currently using a mag base for holding the nozzle, but I think I may have to fab up something a bit more sturdy. But then I loose the flexibility of location. Hmmm... Things to think about.


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## higgite (Sep 8, 2015)

What is this "over accesorize" that you speak of? 

Tom


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## tmarks11 (Sep 8, 2015)

naw, you haven't hit tacticool yet... you go room for a picatinny rail and an EOTech... oh wait wrong forum!


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## David VanNorman (Sep 8, 2015)

Darn nice looking machine. Who handles it  and how much. What is it's parameters.


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## GarageGuy (Sep 9, 2015)

It's a myth.  Don't believe it!  

GG


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## wrmiller (Sep 9, 2015)

David VanNorman said:


> Darn nice looking machine. Who handles it  and how much. What is it's parameters.



Charter Oak, model 12z. Specs are on their website, along with the options they sell. It has a 39.5" by 9.5" table, but I like to call it a 10x40 (sounds cooler). And more Z-axis travel than I know what to do with. It's basically a RF45 on steroids. 

Mine has been upgraded a bit: 3hp 3 phase motor w/VFD, two-step belt drive conversion (approx. 200-4800 spindle rpm), self installed one shot oiling system and a bunch of tweaking/tuning/modding to suit my preferences.

Precision Machine has a new 9x40 that I suspect is very similar to this one, but Matt didn't carry these a year ago when I bought this thing.


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## tmarks11 (Sep 9, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> Precision Machine has a new 9x40 that I suspect is very similar to this one, but Matt didn't carry these a year ago when I bought this thing.


The PM940 is $650 more than the CO 12Z, but... it comes with drive motors on the X & Z axis, and a quill DRO and a stand, and free shipping.  Shipping on the 12Z can be up to $560.

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-940M.html


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## wrmiller (Sep 10, 2015)

One of the reasons I picked the 12z over the 932, besides the increased Y-axis travel, was that while the mill doesn't come with a stand by default, I could optionally order a stand and have it made to my height specifications for no extra charge. That was a biggie for me. Having them put wheels on it was just icing on the cake.


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## bmckenzie (Oct 16, 2015)

Man, that is a nice looking machine!!  I have one on the way (well I hope, it has gotten delayed from China once already) and I can't wait!!  I got the belt drive and 3hp VFD on it.  Looking at your machine I am dying here.

So, you have had your 12z for a year or two now right?  How do you like it?  Are you glad you bought it?  Any recommendations/guidance you would give a new (or about to be) owner of one of these bad boys?


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## Tony Wells (Oct 16, 2015)

What accessories? I see no accessories!


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## GA Gyro (Oct 16, 2015)

Too many accessories...

Sounds like 'too many items in the man cave'... which is impossible...


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 16, 2015)

"Can you over accessorize???
absolutely not, 
it's kinda like having too much money or being too good looking


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## chips&more (Oct 16, 2015)

I can’t spell axsesorrys, so I don’t worry about it. Also ear muffs are a good axsesorry, because my wife can spell accessories…Dave


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2015)

bmckenzie said:


> Man, that is a nice looking machine!!  I have one on the way (well I hope, it has gotten delayed from China once already) and I can't wait!!  I got the belt drive and 3hp VFD on it.  Looking at your machine I am dying here.
> 
> So, you have had your 12z for a year or two now right?  How do you like it?  Are you glad you bought it?  Any recommendations/guidance you would give a new (or about to be) owner of one of these bad boys?



Actually, I do like it. For what it is, it's quite the little work horse. Let me explain that. As some here will tell you, I have bought quite a number of machines in almost three years because my desires kept changing the more I got back into this hobby. When I ran across the 12z I was looking for the biggest machine that I could man-handle by myself in the garage and that didn't require a fork-lift to deliver (the PM935TV wasn't available at that time). This machine was the first one that I bought that actually exceeds my requirements for work envelope. I do mostly pistolsmithing, some rifle work, and other small projects. I will use a 1/2" or 5/8" rougher when making the bigger stuff (my bigger stuff) like fixturing, tools, and whatnot, but most of the time I use 1/8", 1/4", and the occasional 3/8" size cutters for the work I do. My smaller PM25 uses these cutters as well, and performs admirably for it's size, but given the same task, the 12z just purrs along and doesn't get ruffled at all. Sometimes I wonder if it even know it's cutting anything with the smaller cutters. Gunsmithing isn't hard on machines, but it does require accuracy. And the smaller workloads I put on this mill will have it lasting a very long time. You can push this mill harder with 1" endmills and 3 or 4" shell mills, but the harder you do, the shorter the lifespan will be and I would argue that if you need to run cutters that big, you bought the wrong machine. My reasoning for buying this machine having already bought a PM25 was primarily to get the larger work envelope, not for using larger tooling. While the 12z easily handles tasks the little guy struggles a bit with, that was just icing on the cake for me. I will admit having a 2.5" face mill glide over a 20" long piece of Fortal aluminum at a 10 thou DOC finishing cut does put a smile on my face. For some here, that's nothing, but for me it's been a long time since I've had that capability. 

So, having said all that... 

First and foremost, this is a Chinese machine. Some things will work great out of the crate, some things will need tweaking depending upon your expectations and desires. When I got mine, I went through and pulled all of the gibs and checked them for flatness, burrs, and whatnot, then stoned them and did some homemade 'flaking' on the bearing/sliding side of the gib to assist in oil retention. Then I had to address the table in that it's top surface is ground (and very flat) but the edges were razor sharp and the surface a bit rough. The factory doesn't bevel the slot edges, so be careful, they are very sharp. I basically draw-filed and stoned the edges and ran a small file on the underside edges to remove burs so my t-nuts slide smoothly. And I stoned the table top to smooth it out a bit. None of that was much in the way of work, but I figured it would make the overall use experience more enjoyable.

Then I decided to put on the one-shot oiling system from CO. To do that you have to pull the table and saddle as the saddle has to be drilled, tapped, and the oil galleys on the ways have to be either machined in or done by hand with a dremel and carbide burr. So with the table and saddle off I decided to examine, measure, debur, stone, etc., the mating surfaces of the saddle and table. I followed CO's instructions for installing the oiling system as I had no idea of what I was doing back then. Now, after using and thinking about this some more, I would have done it differently, and actually end up with a simpler, more efficient system (I may do that in the future). I didn't do the oiling system mods to the head/column interface piece as I was impatient to get the machine back together and using it. So I keep a oiler handy and squirt the column ways down before I use the machine. I may eventually finish the job, but it's not on the radar right now.

There's more, but somewhere in this sub-forum is a thread or two I started when I received the machine and kinda followed through my setup and initial mods. If you can find them they may help when you get started on your machine. And, you can start a setup thread of your own and I'll help when/if you want it. 

I don't want to lower your expectations any, but I hope you're not expecting a perfect machine to show up that doesn't have any loose screws, slightly mis-aligned front plate (mine was canted a bit, but nothing a file couldn't fix), or other fit/finish stuff. It IS a chinese machine after all. But...the major pieces fit together quite well and perform as expected for a machine in this price range.

I hope you enjoy your new mill!


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## wrmiller (Oct 16, 2015)

Ulma Doctor said:


> "Can you over accessorize???
> absolutely not,
> it's kinda like having too much money or being too good looking



Well, those are two things I'll never have to worry about...


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## bmckenzie (Oct 16, 2015)

> And, you can start a setup thread of your own and I'll help when/if you want it.
> 
> I don't want to lower your expectations any, but I hope you're not expecting a perfect machine to show up that doesn't have any loose screws, slightly mis-aligned front plate (mine was canted a bit, but nothing a file couldn't fix), or other fit/finish stuff. It IS a chinese machine after all. But...the major pieces fit together quite well and perform as expected for a machine in this price range.
> 
> I hope you enjoy your new mill!



Thanks for all of that!  I think I have read every post about CO mills on this forum.  I wanted to make sure this was the right purchase before I made it.  I don't expect it to be perfect.  I don't mind if some things need a little work.  I am new to all of this, so I just hope I am up to whatever it takes to do the work.  Aside from that though, this is a hobby.  If the machine needs tweaking, well cool, I am doing my hobby   I picked this bad boy because it was HUGE but like you say doesn't take a fork lift to move around.   Also, I would like to try to CNC this thing at some point.  I forsee a tormach type setup for this thing.  I hope I can accomplish that, but if not, I will learn a lot in the process.

I have a PM1236 lathe coming too, so I will have all kinds of machinery to get setup and tinker with here soon I hope.  The PM1236 is already being worked on, the mill probably won't get in the US for a couple of weeks yet.

Anyway, thanks again, for your comments to me, and for all of your posts!  Very informative and entertaining!  I am sure I will have some questions when the 12z arrives!


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## wrmiller (Oct 17, 2015)

CO mill and PM lathe...sounds familiar (I have a PM1340GT).


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## maker of things (Oct 22, 2015)

Bill have you considered fitting a maxi-torque power draw bar like coolidge put on his new mill?  Looks like you still have some room there.  Just trying to be helpful.


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## wrmiller (Oct 22, 2015)

Naw, I don't find myself changing tooling more than few times to make a part and I don't consider it that big a deal. Thanks for the 'helpful suggestion' though. 

I get all kinds of comments about the nameplate. I still grin when I see it. Thanks again dude. 

So how is your mill working out? Or have you moved on to something else?


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## maker of things (Oct 22, 2015)

Surprisingly,  I have actually been working on it.  I built a whole new stand and have 95% of the electronics setup (not installed) and tested and am working on the ball nut mounts currently.  Could have that thing under "magical cnc" control this calendar year possibly.  Also going to try hydraulic oil in the head to see if that will kill the sudsing action I'm getting now with 80w90.  Guess you don't have that problem anymore with your belt drive.


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## wrmiller (Oct 22, 2015)

Nope, the head is bone dry since the belt drive install. Spooky quiet too. Where did you get your ball screws and nuts? I'm still wanting to convert mine even though I won't be doing the magical cnc part.


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## maker of things (Oct 23, 2015)

Linear motion bearings on ebay http://www.ebay.com/usr/linearmotionbearings2008?_trksid=p2053788.m1543.l2754  I got the 2505 screws with double ball nuts, one end machined.  He can machine whatever you want if you send him a print.  Most of the guys have been using the 1605 screws successfully but I wanted to keep as close to stock size as possible.  Some have stated that I would have to do significant machining to the bottom of the table to clear the ball nuts, but it doesn't look like it to me.  I can just bring the table over to my FIL's house and clean it up on the BP though so I'm not worried.


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## wrmiller (Oct 23, 2015)

Let me know, because that's (clearancing the underside of the table) not something my PM25 will be able to handle. Hand-held grinder maybe?


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## maker of things (Oct 26, 2015)

Will do.  I don't see what the "extensive machining" would entail.  I see some ribs that look to be the lowest point and based on my "precision" measuring look to be nearly 2" off the saddle. Maybe a couple would need a slight trim with a grinder?  I'm getting dangerously close to actually taking the mill apart and start installing stuff. X looks to be the only place where it could be an issue so I'll check that out first.

 With your DRO do you bother with the scales by the handles?  The metric lead screw would kind of make those useless, especially with being nearly double the thread pitch.


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## wrmiller (Oct 26, 2015)

There are scales by the handles?  

I have DROs on all of my machines. No more squinting at dials or counting turns. And having absolute position information means backlash is almost a non-issue as well.


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## maker of things (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm sure you are not afflicted by this problem, but my counting suffers from frequent incursions of ADD.  200...400...600...what am I having for supper tonight?..700...oh crap what was my count again?


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## maker of things (Oct 28, 2015)

] OK I have another one.  Ever think about a speed handle similar to the type usually found on bridgeports?  I googled and didn't come up with one result.  The 3 spoked thing is getting a little old and it interferes with my work lights.  Surely someone has made one?


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## wrmiller (Oct 28, 2015)

Speed handle for what?


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## maker of things (Oct 28, 2015)

Sorry, the quill.


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## JPigg55 (Oct 28, 2015)

If your machine up and walks out, you may have over accessorized.


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## wrmiller (Oct 28, 2015)

maker of things said:


> Sorry, the quill.



Ah, OK. If you look at the pic at the beginning of this thread, you will see that I replaced that 3-spoke thingie with a much shorter single shaft and a knurled ball on the end. I did this because that factory setup was interfering with my lighting. 

I have less leverage with my setup, but I haven't used a drill bit larger than 3/4" so far and with that I just had to 'lean into' it a bit more than I would have had to do with the original setup.


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## maker of things (Oct 28, 2015)

But you can't pop the handle and rotate it to the position you want though correct?


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## wrmiller (Oct 28, 2015)

No, can't do that. What you're talking about would be cool to have, but I'd have to take the current drive/friction clutch mechanism apart to see what I'd be dealing with in order to attempt to do something like that.


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## coolidge (Oct 28, 2015)

maker of things said:


> Bill have you considered fitting a maxi-torque power draw bar like coolidge put on his new mill?  Looks like you still have some room there.  Just trying to be helpful.



Bill just buy the big Sharp a larger mill gives you more room for accessories.


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## wrmiller (Oct 28, 2015)

I have a host of friends here...


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## tmarks11 (Oct 29, 2015)

We are all looking after your best interest... just want to live vicariously through you, while we putter on out "little" mills.

Look! Cliff! ...


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## wrmiller (Oct 30, 2015)

A Clausing 8520? That's quite the "little" mill Tim. 

I've been thinking about this for a bit... After someone on here accused me of having "problems" (likely in jest, but it stung a bit) because of my recent machine purchases, I probably won't post if/when I finally do get a knee mill. I'm also going to start staying away from some of the more volatile questions like those comparing machines, which is better, US iron is great, everything else sucks, etc.. As one person pointed out, it's fun to watch some folks try to out wordsmith each other, but I'm not going to play anymore. I will continue to hang out and post, but I'm going to start staying away from certain subjects/sub-forums here. I continue to enjoy many of the forums and subjects (especially projects and such), and the whole slew of people I've met here (one person here was recently in town and came over to chat and check out my little hobby shop). 

I've even managed to learn a thing or two...


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## maker of things (Oct 30, 2015)

I feel like clicking the "like" button on the preceding post wouldn't convey the correct intentions.  Maybe more along the lines of: empathy, support, acceptance or bummer, would be a better choice but those are not given.


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## tmarks11 (Oct 30, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> A Clausing 8520? That's quite the "little" mill Tim.


It really isn't that big.  About 800#, table is 6x24".  Feels really small after working on a Sharp LMV50.

The mill in my avatar is a Tormach 1100, which is bigger and more rigid than the Clausing... and not worn out... and cnc. Still would be nice to add a full size bridgeport to my stable.

I am in your shoes, and am tooling up for retirement.  I made my last move, so over the past two years have started to buy the heavy machinery that I didn't dare buy before when I was moving a lot (military).


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## wrmiller (Oct 30, 2015)

Man, if I didn't have to move again I'd already have my knee mill. And my surface grinder. And my bigger band saw. And...  

Checked CL today and found this listed: https://fortcollins.craigslist.org/tls/5285239015.html

Thought of yours when I saw it.


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## tmarks11 (Oct 30, 2015)

Yeah, the 8520 was the limit of what I felt I could move with. Moved three times after I bought it.  Take the mill off of the stand, remove the motor, and it weighs about 600#. I can move it up and down a haul ramp on an appliance dolly... barely. 

I held off buying a lathe (I wanted something at least 13x40) and a bigger mill until after I moved this final time.  Now I am retired from the military (and working a different job), so I don't have to worry about relocating again.

8520's tend to sell for a good amount of money.... but not $3500.  That guy is dreaming.  I see them selling from $900-1600 tops.


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## wrmiller (Oct 31, 2015)

He may just get it. Everything machine-wise here sells for stupid money. I saw a guy with a listing for a RF30 w/DRO recently and he wanted $4k for it. Recently a completely clapped out and badly rusted SB 9 was listed for almost 2k. It's just stupid around here. Probably the legal pot and lack of oxygen at this altitude... Can't wait to leave.


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## tmarks11 (Oct 31, 2015)

yeah, there is that. CO is probably even less of a hot bed of manufacturing then the PNW.

 I bought mine when I lived on the East Coast, but even then I had scouted for about a year looking for one.  They are somewhat rare and in high demand because they are a really convenient size for a hobbyist.  But "rare" for a 30 yo machine tool like this means it should cost $1600, not $3500.


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## wrmiller (Oct 31, 2015)

Well, the situation here may mean that I can get a decent price for my 12Z when I want to sell it...


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## maker of things (Oct 31, 2015)

And unlike some other machines, you know it can be crated and freighted...


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## wrmiller (Oct 31, 2015)

I don't do wood, so the crating might be an issue. Do they pick up at your residence? I think I remember reading somewhere that Grizzly had a machine picked up at a customers house?


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## maker of things (Nov 2, 2015)

I meant, compared against a knee mill, basically you could ship it on a skid or someone could back up with a pickup or trailer and you could comparably easily load them up.  I think that would make it easier on your end to sell too.


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## GA Gyro (Nov 2, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> A Clausing 8520? That's quite the "little" mill Tim.
> 
> I've been thinking about this for a bit... After someone on here accused me of having "problems" (likely in jest, but it stung a bit) because of my recent machine purchases, I probably won't post if/when I finally do get a knee mill. I'm also going to start staying away from some of the more volatile questions like those comparing machines, which is better, US iron is great, everything else sucks, etc.. As one person pointed out, it's fun to watch some folks try to out wordsmith each other, but I'm not going to play anymore. I will continue to hang out and post, but I'm going to start staying away from certain subjects/sub-forums here. I continue to enjoy many of the forums and subjects (especially projects and such), and the whole slew of people I've met here (one person here was recently in town and came over to chat and check out my little hobby shop).
> 
> I've even managed to learn a thing or two...



Online forums... tend to have toes stepped on... mostly by accident.  
Seems to me it 'would' be better if the folks with heels... would apologize... but then that does not always happen.
Seems a bit thicker skin, or quick to forgive and move on, works better on forums... these issues seem to not pop up as often in person.

I bet we all have some stories we could tell... however that might get a bit too negative and raucous... Was gonna start a thread on it... probably better not!

Bill... you are one of the folks I follow... simply because of the way you think things out.  
I hope you do not back away too much... I do enjoy reading your posts.

And on the new mill:  might remember Matt's excellent customer service... the PM mills are good machines!


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## GA Gyro (Nov 2, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> Well, the situation here may mean that I can get a decent price for my 12Z when I want to sell it...



Question Bill....

Have folks CNC'ed the 12Z??

I may have a need for a small CNC machine in a few years.

THX

GA


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## wrmiller (Nov 2, 2015)

The 12z is the manual version of Charter Oak's CNC mill. I could buy the conversion kit if I wanted. MakerofThings is converting his now.


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## GA Gyro (Nov 2, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> The 12z is the manual version of Charter Oak's CNC mill. I could buy the conversion kit if I wanted. MakerofThings is converting his now.



THX Bill...


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## wrmiller (Nov 2, 2015)

GA Gyro said:


> And on the new mill:  might remember Matt's excellent customer service... the PM mills are good machines!



Oh I haven't forgotten. When Reality sets in, I likely will go with the original plan which was a single-phase 935TV with power feed, because it can be delivered via lift gate, and I have some hope of moving this myself if I have to pull the trigger early. I guess I will just have to learn to live with a smaller, decent quality machine. 

NOTE: I noticed this morning that everyone appears to be jacking up their prices on the Sharp LMVs. Just getting too darn pricey now.


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## maker of things (Nov 2, 2015)

OK.  A whole 'nother mill might be the point where you have over accessorized.  Not saying don't do it


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## GA Gyro (Nov 2, 2015)

wrmiller19 said:


> Oh I haven't forgotten. When Reality sets in, I likely will go with the original plan which was a single-phase 935TV with power feed, because it can be delivered via lift gate, and I have some hope of moving this myself if I have to pull the trigger early. I guess I will just have to learn to live with a smaller, decent quality machine.
> 
> NOTE: I noticed this morning that everyone appears to be jacking up their prices on the Sharp LMVs. Just getting too darn pricey now.



I have a 935TS (belt drive)... built a stand for it with removable outriggers.  It will 'just' squeeze through a 36" (35" opening) door... with the X table removed.  It weighs around 1750 with accessories and stand.  
All in all... it is a nice machine... well built (Taiwanese).
I bought the 3 phase and put a VFD on it... works fine!


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## wrmiller (Nov 3, 2015)

Yea, Matt told me a while back that he had a couple of TS mills available. Not sure I want to do a third VFD install... One of my problems with the 935s is that they are no where near tall enough for a guy who's 6'3" tall. And I don't have welding capability to fab one. If I do get one, I'll have to have someone here design a bolt together stand for me.


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## Chris Bettis (Nov 4, 2015)

Bill, If you do need a stand built, I have welding capability and am only a short drive away. are you gonna be around this weekend?


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## wrmiller (Nov 5, 2015)

Hey Chris,

Appreciate the thought, thanks. Another member here offered as well, but he lives quite a ways away and we'd have to freight a welded stand. He is looking at a possible bolt-together design that he could send me the drawings for and I could do the material gathering and assembly. Not sure if a bolt together design would be as strong? (I'm no expert in this area)

I am going to attempt the last round of golf for the year on Sunday, but I'm home Saturday.


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## maker of things (Nov 5, 2015)

I'm sure that member could draw and send you the prints.  A weldment would likely be quicker to make and simpler to keep rigid.


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## Chris Bettis (Nov 5, 2015)

Maker, what cad software do you use?

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk


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## maker of things (Nov 5, 2015)

I have geomagic design, but I can export in any format.

 -Jon


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## Chris Bettis (Nov 5, 2015)

Idk if that is compatible in bendtech pro. For tube and plate work that's what I use. 

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk


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## coolidge (Nov 5, 2015)

Bill why couldn't you just pour a raised concrete pad for a 935 instead of welding a stand? I 'really' like how solid mine is setting on concrete. You could lay some plastic down to keep it from sticking to the floor so you could break it up later when you sell your house. Just thinking outside the box.


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## Chris Bettis (Nov 5, 2015)

Cause concrete is boring... 

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk


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## Chris Bettis (Nov 5, 2015)

I will say if there is a budget 20 bucks worth of quickcrete, and some scrap 2x4 for forms from home depot cant be beat.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk


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## wrmiller (Nov 5, 2015)

Concrete? Hmmm...


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## johnwell (Nov 8, 2015)

Wow Bill, I was in Colorado Springs for a few months,earlier this year....I could have visited your shop perhaps and get a "sniff of machining"....I've been deprived since April!
That's what you get when traveling all over for a job......Closest to 'machining' I get now is the house sitter put oil on bare parts of my machines! 

John


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## JimDawson (Nov 8, 2015)

Chris Bettis said:


> I will say if there is a budget 20 bucks worth of quickcrete, and some scrap 2x4 for forms from home depot cant be beat.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk



Another advantage of concrete is you can't lose small parts under the machine


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## wrmiller (Nov 8, 2015)

johnwell said:


> Wow Bill, I was in Colorado Springs for a few months,earlier this year....I could have visited your shop perhaps and get a "sniff of machining"....I've been deprived since April!
> That's what you get when traveling all over for a job......Closest to 'machining' I get now is the house sitter put oil on bare parts of my machines!
> 
> John



Let me know next time you're in the neighborhood.


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## coolidge (Nov 9, 2015)

Plus with a concrete pad that takes care of any floor sloping issues just level it when you pour it. Alternatively pour 4 mini pads or use 4 blocks of aluminum, granite, or whatever. The PM935 base only makes contact with the floor in each corner in about a 4x4 inch area.


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## Tony Wells (Nov 9, 2015)

I like that concrete idea. It also spreads the load out if there is any question about the existing floor. There are fast setting formulas that would make this an afternoon's project. And it's also a good point that the top surface could be level if you finished it properly.


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## maker of things (Nov 9, 2015)

If you don't paint it, rust isn't an issue either.  Probably won't roll to well though.


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