# A 960 Sq. ft Garage-Shop!!



## Janderso (Dec 20, 2021)

My wife looked at a home yesterday that may just be the one.
It's in the county, that's a good thing.
The shop is 960 sq. ft. It has two doors, I'm trying to show them in the pics.
The home was built in 2019. It's 2,500 feet. Beautiful layout. Top end appliances.
It's one acre, the back yard is a clean slate.
RV parking!
I can see growing old here. We'll see how it works out.


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## davidpbest (Dec 20, 2021)

Looks nice.  What part of the world is this in?


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## Janderso (Dec 20, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Looks nice.  What part of the world is this in?


Butte County California. It's about a half a mile from where we live now in Chico.
It has a well. never had a well before.
The water situation in California is a big concern. This area seems to be OK.


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## Just for fun (Dec 20, 2021)

That looks like a nice place Jeff, I hope it works out for you.

Tim


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## woodchucker (Dec 20, 2021)

That also means moving is less of a hassle.  That pod idea the other day seems nice too.. just load up the pod at your leisure, and move it over.

provided of course that there are tie downs in the pod


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## Janderso (Dec 20, 2021)

We are going for it!!









						20 Foxfield Ct, Chico, CA 95973 | realtor.com®
					

View 37 photos for 20 Foxfield Ct, Chico, CA 95973, a 3 bed, 3 bath, 2,541 Sq. Ft. single family home built in 2019 that was last sold on 01/21/2022.




					www.realtor.com


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## macardoso (Dec 20, 2021)

Beautiful home, but ouch those CA real estate prices!

Good Luck!!!


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## woodchucker (Dec 20, 2021)

Janderso said:


> We are going for it!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Did they accept your offer?


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## Just for fun (Dec 20, 2021)

Very nice!


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## Janderso (Dec 20, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> Did they accept your offer?


You'll be the first to know. We are optimistic but are prepared to be turned down. Our offer is asking price. Who could turn that down?
In this market people add 10 to 20 grand over. Our realtor said this price range doesn't usually get too crazy with the bidding wars.
However, this area of Chico is highly sought after.
It's a great investment!


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## MyLilMule (Dec 20, 2021)

Damn. That same house in my area would be half that, maybe a little more. Plus with lower taxes. I am amazed that anyone can afford to live in places like CA and NY.


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## Stonebriar (Dec 20, 2021)

Good luck Jeff.


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## Janderso (Dec 20, 2021)

macardoso said:


> Beautiful home, but ouch those CA real estate prices!
> 
> Good Luck!!!


Boy howdy. This home and property in the San Francisco bay area would be over two million.


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## brino (Dec 20, 2021)

Best of luck Jeff, I hope it works out for you!
Brian


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## Janderso (Dec 20, 2021)

brino said:


> Best of luck Jeff, I hope it works out for you!
> Brian


Thank you Brian.
We signed the Docusign.
Just waiting now.


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## NCjeeper (Dec 20, 2021)

Fingers crossed.


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## OCJohn (Dec 20, 2021)

An acre is just enough to justify owning a tractor.


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## Janderso (Dec 20, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> Damn. That same house in my area would be half that, maybe a little more. Plus with lower taxes. I am amazed that anyone can afford to live in places like CA and NY.


When you say lower taxes, our base is reduced because of our fire loss.
We pay 1% of our reduced base.
That nets out a little over $4,000 a year At this new location.
Just curious if that’s what you were thinking?


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## woodchucker (Dec 20, 2021)

Janderso said:


> When you say lower taxes, our base is reduced because of our fire loss.
> We pay 1% of our reduced base.
> That nets out a little over $4,000 a year At this new location.
> Just curious if that’s what you were thinking?


Nice, that's less than I pay for an 1800 sq ft home..
But still higher than many places across the country.


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## 7milesup (Dec 20, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> Nice, that's less than I pay for an 1800 sq ft home..
> But still higher than many places across the country.


My property taxes went up this past year.  Other folks' taxes around here went up drastically, like double-digit hikes in the 16-20% range.
I pay $5800/yr in property taxes for a 3400sq ft house on 22 acres.  For the upper mid-west, I think that that is damn expensive.


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## MyLilMule (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> When you say lower taxes, our base is reduced because of our fire loss.
> We pay 1% of our reduced base.
> That nets out a little over $4,000 a year At this new location.
> Just curious if that’s what you were thinking?


Not just property taxes, but income taxes, gas taxes, all those add up I am sure. I'm on 3/4 acre, 2500 sq ft. house and I think our property taxes are in the $3k range a year.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> Not just property taxes, but income taxes, gas taxes, all those add up I am sure. I'm on 3/4 acre, 2500 sq ft. house and I think our property taxes are in the $3k range a year.


Yeah, California has plenty of fees. Our dmv fees are sky high, our gas price right now is $4.50 and real estate is very high.
People want out of urban life and traffic.
Ohio winters though, brrr.


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## cathead (Dec 21, 2021)

Ohio?


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## FOMOGO (Dec 21, 2021)

The house is nice, but where are the shop pics? Congrats the on the new digs. Cheers, Mike


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## cathead (Dec 21, 2021)

Best wishes on your new abode, Jeff.


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## FOMOGO (Dec 21, 2021)

Feel pretty blessed tax wise. My place 2800sf house, with 1100sf garage, and 2100sf shop on 15acres (twenty miles from town) is $800 a year. Normally it would be $1600, but in our county when you hit 65, your property taxes are lowered by 50%. Now the ski area (Steamboat Springs) is a whole nother ball game. My house on three city lots would be closer to 10k, but would also be worth 1.5-2 million. Would still much rather be where I am. Mike


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## macardoso (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> You'll be the first to know. We are optimistic but are prepared to be turned down. Our offer is asking price. Who could turn that down?
> In this market people add 10 to 20 grand over. Our realtor said this price range doesn't usually get too crazy with the bidding wars.
> However, this area of Chico is highly sought after.
> It's a great investment!


We recently lost a bid on a house near Detroit, MI. Winning bid was $85k over on a $400k house.  Market was just insane.


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## davidpbest (Dec 21, 2021)

I'm really thankful I cashed out of my home in San Francisco (Sea Cliff), and moved to Portland OR 10 years ago.  Cost of living here is SO much lower, but my house here has tripped in value in the 10 years I've owned it.  Real Estate is on a tear.   Good luck on your purchase - I've always liked the Chico area.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> The house is nice, but where are the shop pics? Congrats the on the new digs. Cheers, Mike


Here you go.
9 ft ceilings, there is a cabinet and sink at the home entry door in the shop.
The nice thing about having space is I can build a RPC and compressor room outside the shop. The side utility yard will hold our trailer, cutting bench, steel storage etc. -maybe


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

macardoso said:


> We recently lost a bid on a house near Detroit, MI. Winning bid was $85k over on a $400k house.  Market was just insane.


That's my concern. This is a rare find in this area. I can see someone coming in and offering 50K over asking price.
My wife's friend knows the builder. They want it to go to a local family, not someone out of the area trying to relocate.
We'll see.
It's the waiting that's hard. My wife and I know if we don't get the home it wasn't meant to be.


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## woodchucker (Dec 21, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> Feel pretty blessed tax wise. My place 2800sf house, with 1100sf garage, and 2100sf shop on 15acres (twenty miles from town) is $800 a year. Normally it would be $1600, but in our county when you hit 65, your property taxes are lowered by 50%. Now the ski area (Steamboat Springs) is a whole nother ball game. My house on three city lots would be closer to 10k, but would also be worth 1.5-2 million. Would still much rather be where I am. Mike


When my wife and I were looking to move out to Colorado we were amazed at the taxes.  I wanted to become a ski bum but have a real job.. None of the ski resorts would hire me... I wasn't bubbly enough... you have to have that personality, even for a backroom job.. I was looking for an IT job, at that time I was a software engineer. But they wanted the same personality that they present at their front desk in the back room...  So we retreated to the Boulder area, figured I can still commute to the slopes.. A bigger house than what I have now was 800 a year.  then the next year we went back, the price for houses was off the charts... the Californians were moving in, in mass, driving up the prices.. Oh well.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> I'm really thankful I cashed out of my home in San Francisco (Sea Cliff), and moved to Portland OR 10 years ago.  Cost of living here is SO much lower, but my house here has tripped in value in the 10 years I've owned it.  Real Estate is on a tear.   Good luck on your purchase - I've always liked the Chico area.


We have friends that sold their Novato home and moved to Port Orchard WA. I would say they upgraded considerably for less money.


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## davidpbest (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> We have friends that sold their Novato home and moved to Port Orchard WA. I would say they upgraded considerably for less money.


Nice shop space you'll have there.  _*Here's*_ what you can do with about 1,000 square feet.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> I'm really thankful I cashed out of my home in San Francisco (Sea Cliff), and moved to Portland OR 10 years ago.  Cost of living here is SO much lower, but my house here has tripped in value in the 10 years I've owned it.  Real Estate is on a tear.   Good luck on your purchase - I've always liked the Chico area.


Portland is one of our favorite towns.
Too bad about all the craziness of late.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> When my wife and I were looking to move out to Colorado we were amazed at the taxes.  I wanted to become a ski bum but have a real job.. None of the ski resorts would hire me... I wasn't bubbly enough... you have to have that personality, even for a backroom job.. I was looking for an IT job, at that time I was a software engineer. But they wanted the same personality that they present at their front desk in the back room...  So we retreated to the Boulder area, figured I can still commute to the slopes.. A bigger house than what I have now was 800 a year.  then the next year we went back, the price for houses was off the charts... the Californians were moving in, in mass, driving up the prices.. Oh well.


I don't know what it's like now but about 10 years ago an average working man's home in a bad neighborhood in Sunnyvale (Bay area) was around 1.2 million.
I feel bad for our young families. How the hell can they buy a first home?
My wife's best friend lives in a Dell Webb community in Manteca of all places.
Her daughter is in marketing and makes over 400K per year and her son is a personal chef. makes over 500K.
These kids are in their late 20's to early 30's.
I just don't get it.


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## woodchucker (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I don't know what it's like now but about 10 years ago an average working man's home in a bad neighborhood in Sunnyvale (Bay area) was around 1.2 million.
> I feel bad for our young families. How the hell can they buy a first home?
> My wife's best friend lives in a Dell Webb community in Manteca of all places.
> Her daughter is in marketing and makes over 400K per year and her son is a personal chef. makes over 500K.
> ...


What don't you get?  Those ridiculously high wages for what they do?
I don't get that. Are they marketing drugs, is he working for the "Stars"  wth...


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Nice shop space you'll have there.  _*Here's*_ what you can do with about 1,000 square feet.


Love your shop space.
Very well thought out.
I never imagined you could fit a metal shop and a wood shop in an 1,100 sq. ft space.
A basement??
How did you get all those machine tools down there? Is there a carriage door I missed?
Nice top shelf equipment!


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> What don't you get? Those ridiculously high wages for what they do?


Who would pay a half a million for someone to cook their meals?
This is just crazy man.


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## woodchucker (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Love your shop space.
> Very well thought out.
> I never imagined you could fit a metal shop and a wood shop in an 1,100 sq. ft space.
> A basement??
> ...


yes, I saw his video a week or 2 ago, and it was very impressive.


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## woodchucker (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Who would pay a half a million for someone to cook their meals?
> This is just crazy man.


ok we are on the same page...
yea, I don't get it.... I don't get the 400k for marketing either? is she selling multi million dollar equipment that's hard to sell? or is she selling something that sells itself?


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## rabler (Dec 21, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Nice shop space you'll have there. _*Here's*_ what you can do with about 1,000 square feet.


I have a lot of respect for those of you that have the skills to pack a comprehensive shop into that amount of space.  I've tried, and have opted to expand.   I just don't have the inclination toward the level of organization that it takes, especially when you mix woodworking and metalworking.


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## MyLilMule (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Ohio winters though, brrr.


Not nearly as bad as other parts of the country. But I suppose it's all relative.

Here it is, December 21st, and it's 37F outside. A week ago, we had 60F weather. We'll get snow, but not as much as Minnesota, Montana, or the Dakotas.

But I would rather have it -20F than 120F. I can always put on another layer. When it's blistering hot, there's only so much I can take off before it becomes socially awkward.


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## brino (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Here you go.
> 9 ft ceilings, there is a cabinet and sink at the home entry door in the shop.
> The nice thing about having space is I can build a RPC and compressor room outside the shop. The side utility yard will hold our trailer, cutting bench, steel storage etc.





Am I the only one arranging my existing equipment into all that open space in my mind?

-brino


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## davidpbest (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> How did you get all those machine tools down there? Is there a carriage door I missed?


The first 2 minutes of _*this video*_ explains how I get machinery and materials in/out of the basement, and finished products (I build heirloom kitchens) out for transit to clients.   *This series* explains the addition of the bulkhead entrance addition.


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## OCJohn (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Here you go.
> 9 ft ceilings, there is a cabinet and sink at the home entry door in the shop.
> The nice thing about having space is I can build a RPC and compressor room outside the shop. The side utility yard will hold our trailer, cutting bench, steel storage etc. -maybe
> View attachment 389266


Washer and drier have a proper place inside, I hope...?


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

OCJohn said:


> Washer and drier have a proper place inside, I hope...?


In the laundry room. There is also space for a refrigerator in the laundry room.


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## Steve-F (Dec 21, 2021)

Good luck on your offer! My whole house is only 912 Square feet


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> The first 2 minutes of _*this video*_ explains how I get machinery and materials in/out of the basement, and finished products (I build heirloom kitchens) out for transit to clients.   *This series* explains the addition of the bulkhead entrance addition.


Whoa, that's quite the project.
I bet you were happy to have that access.
Nice job sir.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> ok we are on the same page...
> yea, I don't get it.... I don't get the 400k for marketing either? is she selling multi million dollar equipment that's hard to sell? or is she selling something that sells itself?


I don't know what the hell she sells.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

rabler said:


> especially when you mix woodworking and metalworking


You must admit, the shop layout with the exhaust ducting is pretty slick. No expense spared there.
I didn't see any dust or chips. I know he uses his equipment though. Maybe David has a clean-up crew come in every day??
Any wood shop I've been in has sawdust in every crack and surface.


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## rabler (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Any wood shop I've been in has sawdust in every crack and surface.


I'm glad I'll be separating mine shortly.  While I have a  good sized dust collector, the idea of welding and sawdust in the same area makes me nervous.


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## woodchucker (Dec 21, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> Not nearly as bad as other parts of the country. But I suppose it's all relative.
> 
> Here it is, December 21st, and it's 37F outside. A week ago, we had 60F weather. We'll get snow, but not as much as Minnesota, Montana, or the Dakotas.
> 
> But I would rather have it -20F than 120F. I can always put on another layer. When it's blistering hot, there's only so much I can take off before it becomes socially awkward.


I handle the cold better than the heat. As I get older the cold is beginning to bother me, but so is the heat. I find playing ball in the heat I am much more winded and out of energy the past 3 years.. I think it's been getting worse. I guess with age you don't regulate as well.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> As I get older the cold is beginning to bother me, but so is the heat


Boy no kidding.
Today it's foggy and cold. The fog just adds that extra bite.
Summers are way too long.

I sure wouldn't want to be homeless. We have cold rain forecast for the next 10 days.
The forecast is for over 10 feet of snow in the mountains.
I bet the ski resorts are anxious about it. This is one of their biggest weeks.


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## OCJohn (Dec 21, 2021)

rabler said:


> I'm glad I'll be separating mine shortly.  While I have a  good sized dust collector, *the idea of welding and sawdust in the same area makes me nervous.*


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 21, 2021)

Good luck Jeff, nice to know where you will be in our retirement. We still haven't made a decision on where in the country we are going to settle. Costs are way too high here in the PNW or anywhere along West Coast. Been looking at the Eastern part of OK, Western AR and NE corner of Texas.


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> Good luck Jeff, nice to know where you will be in our retirement. We still haven't made a decision on where in the country we are going to settle. Costs are way too high here in the PNW or anywhere along West Coast. Been looking at the Eastern part of OK, Western AR and NE corner of Texas.


One of our techs is moving to North Carolina the first of the year.
His sister is a realtor there. She said about one third of her new clients are from California.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 21, 2021)

Any news?
(colour me mega envious of the shop!!!)


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## Just for fun (Dec 21, 2021)

Me too,  the shop is beautiful.   The house is pretty nice also!


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## woodchucker (Dec 21, 2021)

Janderso said:


> One of our techs is moving to North Carolina the first of the year.
> His sister is a realtor there. She said about one third of her new clients are from California.


saw on the news the other day that CA is a net loss of people. More moving out than moving in.
I believe NJ has been the same too. Taxes here are high, but moving is a hard thing. Especially if you saw my basement.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 21, 2021)

Just for fun said:


> Me too, the shop is beautiful. The house is pretty nice also!



Wait, what? There was a house too?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Janderso (Dec 21, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> More moving out than moving in


That's telling right there.


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## Dhal22 (Dec 21, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> That also means moving is less of a hassle.  That pod idea the other day seems nice too.. just load up the pod at your leisure, and move it over.
> 
> provided of course that there are tie downs in the pod



I had an entire semi trailer delivered to my house last move (almost 20 years ago). Took my time loading it while we house searched.   I used day laborers,  younger employees to load when I needed them.   Once the trailer was full I had it moved to a friend's property while we continued to search, then moved to our new house after closing.   I saved 1000's of dollars that way.


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## MyLilMule (Dec 22, 2021)

Janderso said:


> That's telling right there.


But it's not as astronomical as one would think, even though they are 49th for net population growth. An article I read said that CA lost about a net 70k residents from 2019 to 2020. But Texas is GAINING a net of 370k+ over the same period. Wowzers!


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## extropic (Dec 22, 2021)

Dhal22 said:


> I had an entire semi trailer delivered to my house last move (almost 20 years ago). Took my time loading it while we house searched.   I used day laborers,  younger employees to load when I needed them.   Once the trailer was full I had it moved to a friend's property while we continued to search, then moved to our new house after closing.   I saved 1000's of dollars that way.


That's interesting.

How much was the monthly rental on the trailer? Or do you have connections that let you borrow the trailer for free?


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## 7milesup (Dec 22, 2021)

Dhal22 said:


> I had an entire semi trailer delivered to my house last move (



This is exactly what we did in 2019.
We palletized nearly everything with my wife placing as many items on pallets as she could, a lot of it in totes or boxes, and then shrink-wrapped each pallet.  I loaded each pallet into the trailer utilizing my tractor with forks, and then used a pallet jack to place the pallets.  My wife left an aisle down the middle where the beds were eventually placed.  With her incredible packing skills, we had most of our 4500 sq ft house in that trailer.  I believe it cost us about $100 per month to store it, which was only from the beginning of September to late December of 2019.  The trailer service did charge a per-mile fee but it was minimal since we only moved about 10 miles from our original house.


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## Janderso (Dec 22, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> But it's not as astronomical as one would think, even though they are 49th for net population growth. An article I read said that CA lost about a net 70k residents from 2019 to 2020. But Texas is GAINING a net of 370k+ over the same period. Wowzers!


I don't get it, if California is losing 70K per year why do we have this robust housing shortage? They just keep building houses.
At least in Northern Ca., maybe the highly populated lower state has less demand for housing.


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## Steve-F (Dec 22, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I don't get it, if California is losing 70K per year why do we have this robust housing shortage? They just keep building houses.
> At least in Northern Ca., maybe the highly populated lower state has less demand for housing.


They are building more houses on every possible lot and apartments through the roof down here!! Were is the water going to come from


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## Janderso (Dec 22, 2021)

Steve-F said:


> They are building more houses on every possible lot and apartments through the roof down here!! Were is the water going to come from


The math doesn't work.
I wasn't sure where Vista was so I checked out Google Earth.
I don't see any green lawns down there.
It is desert after all.


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## woodchucker (Dec 22, 2021)

Janderso said:


> The math doesn't work.
> I wasn't sure where Vista was so I checked out Google Earth.
> I don't see any green lawns down there.
> It is desert after all.


sure it does... its' the new math...   1+1=5


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## extropic (Dec 22, 2021)

Janderso said:


> The math doesn't work.
> I wasn't sure where Vista was so I checked out Google Earth.
> I don't see any green lawns down there.
> It is desert after all.



Children grow up and move out. Two grown children, eventually, need two additional residences.

The persons that used to live in one residence now have three.


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## Steve-F (Dec 22, 2021)

Janderso said:


> The math doesn't work.
> I wasn't sure where Vista was so I checked out Google Earth.
> I don't see any green lawns down there.
> It is desert after all.


"It is desert after all."

 Yes, that's my point, not a lot of water:<)


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## 7milesup (Dec 22, 2021)

So how much time did you give the sellers Jeff to respond?  In the current market, I advised both of my daughters when they bought their houses that 24 to 48 hours would be sufficient.  That way the seller can't yank yer chain for a week.


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## Janderso (Dec 22, 2021)

7milesup said:


> So how much time did you give the sellers Jeff to respond?


oops, it's blank.
hey, it's not like I buy houses very often 
30 day escrow after acceptance.
These are good people, I'm not expecting a circle jerk.
We made them a clean and fair offer. No contingencies.


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## NCjeeper (Dec 22, 2021)

You under contract yet?


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## Dhal22 (Dec 22, 2021)

extropic said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> How much was the monthly rental on the trailer? Or do you have connections that let you borrow the trailer for free?




I used a construction storage container company (Mobile Mini) since I had an account there. They rent jobsite offices,  storage containers, semi trailers.


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## mickri (Dec 22, 2021)

The standard clause in the California offer form is 72 hours to accept, reject or counter.  The blank on the form is if you want to specify a different amount of time.


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## Aaron_W (Dec 23, 2021)

Good luck on the house, that looks like quite a shop space, guessing about double the current space?




Janderso said:


> I don't get it, if California is losing 70K per year why do we have this robust housing shortage? They just keep building houses.
> At least in Northern Ca., maybe the highly populated lower state has less demand for housing.



Its not 70k per year, it was a net loss of 70k in 2019/2020 it is the first time since 1849 that California had a net loss in population. That is 0.18% so at this rate in 200 years the population will be back down to 20 million like it was when I was a kid.


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## MyLilMule (Dec 23, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> Good luck on the house, that looks like quite a shop space, guessing about double the current space?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From July 2020 to July 2021, CA lost another 173,000. But again, it's for a variety of factors: fewer births, fewer immigration due to the pandemic, etc.

One article I read states, "California has been steadily losing people to other states for years. From 2010 to 2020, about 6.1 million people left for other states and only 4.9 million arrived from other parts of the country, according to an analysis of census data by the Public Policy Institute of California."

And we can't forget that some people (maybe a lot?) are leaving California for personal political reasons. I don't have any data to show there is any truth in that.


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## MrWhoopee (Dec 23, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> And we can't forget that some people (maybe a lot?) are leaving California for personal political reasons. I don't have any data to show there is any truth in that.


Not enough of them. They b*tch and complain but they JUST WON'T LEAVE!


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## Janderso (Dec 23, 2021)

NCjeeper said:


> You under contract yet?


Still waiting


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## rabler (Dec 23, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Still waiting


Pretty typical for the seller to sit on the offer as long as possible, always the chance of a better offer coming in.  With several offers they may even go 'best and final'.


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## davidpbest (Dec 23, 2021)

When I make an all cash offer, I put a 24 hour fuse on the acceptance.  Any decent RE agent would know this is SOP in California.


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## Janderso (Dec 23, 2021)

There are six offers. They are to review them this afternoon.
We are ok either way (not really). I don't think we will be in the running. We offered $785,000. 30 day escrow, no contingencies.
It's listed for $779,000.
Maybe some of those offers are lower? May have contingencies?
I'm guessing it will go for $325 a foot at $812,000.
We'll know soon.


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 23, 2021)

Got my fingers crossed for you Jeff. But, if you don't get it, that means that there is something better out there just waiting for you to come along.


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## Dan Krager (Dec 23, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Love your shop space.
> Very well thought out.
> I never imagined you could fit a metal shop and a wood shop in an 1,100 sq. ft space.
> A basement??
> ...


I recently downsized from 2000 sq ft shop to 1100 sqft and have a full blooded woodshop and a well equipped metal working shop complete with lathe, mill, welders (all three types), plasma cutter, benders, and press.  It's very very tight, but it's functional! Some days have to move the truck or tractor out.... 

DanK


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## Dan Krager (Dec 23, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Nice shop space you'll have there.  _*Here's*_ what you can do with about 1,000 square feet.


Drool.


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## mickri (Dec 23, 2021)

In California they have this wonderful multiple counter offer format.  The seller can make a different counter offer to each offer.  See which of their counters get accepted and then choose the one they want to accept.  It's nuts.  Another horrible tactic I have seen is the seller counters with "what is the highest price you will pay with a blank to fill in."  This nonsense is driven by investors.  Even if there is only minimal appreciation it is still better in the long run then a lot of other investments these days.  It happens in all types of property.  Not just houses.


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## rabler (Dec 23, 2021)

mickri said:


> In California they have this wonderful multiple counter offer format.  The seller can make a different counter offer to each offer.  See which of their counters get accepted and then choose the one they want to accept.  It's nuts.  Another horrible tactic I have seen is the seller counters with "what is the highest price you will pay with a blank to fill in."  This nonsense is driven by investors.  Even if there is only minimal appreciation it is still better in the long run then a lot of other investments these days.  It happens in all types of property.  Not just houses.


We ended up with our house because the previous owner, who'd passed away, had built a garage on what was legally our right of way.  Estate had to either negotiate with us or bulldoze the 30x32 garage to be able to show clear title to sell it.  We needed a house and it adjoined the property we already owned, so instead of building we got a bargain at a time when we needed a place to live immediately.  Said garage is my current workshop.


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## brino (Dec 23, 2021)

rabler said:


> We ended up with our house because the previous owner, who'd passed away, had built a garage on what was legally our right of way. Estate had to either negotiate with us or bulldoze the 30x32 garage to be able to show clear title to sell it. We needed a house and it adjoined the property we already owned, so instead of building we got a bargain at a time when we needed a place to live immediately. Said garage is my current workshop.



Wow! Very fortuitous. Congratulations.
That is a story to tell the grand-kids about when they start looking for property.
Brian


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## rabler (Dec 23, 2021)

brino said:


> Wow! Very fortuitous. Congratulations.
> That is a story to tell the grand-kids about when they start looking for property.
> Brian


The entire story of why we had a r-o-w is quite the story but to long to type.


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## Janderso (Dec 23, 2021)

8 offers, we lost


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## mickri (Dec 23, 2021)

Sorry to hear that.  Another house will come along.  Keep looking.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 23, 2021)

Oh man, I’m sorry!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Janderso (Dec 24, 2021)

I think the discouraging thing is to see the demand for nice homes with a bit of property.
It wasn't meant to be.
Thanks for the kind and heartfelt comments.
I appreciate it.

Merry Christmas Eve!!
The family is coming today for Xmas


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## Papa Charlie (Dec 24, 2021)

Sorry to hear that you lost it, but as I said, it is OK as something better will come along. 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Patrick


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## Ischgl99 (Dec 24, 2021)

Sorry to hear you lost out on it.  Keep in touch with the realtor and let them know you are still interested in case the deal falls through before you find something else.  A house down the street from me went through 3 buyers this year before it made it to closing.


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## deakin (Dec 24, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Nice shop space you'll have there.  _*Here's*_ what you can do with about 1,000 square feet.


you must spend 80% of your time cleaning. 

my brother's house is 4k sq ft. 900 is living area. the remaining is a very well equipped and organized wood shop but it's not spotless.


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## Kevin T (Dec 24, 2021)

mickri said:


> In California they have this wonderful multiple counter offer format.  The seller can make a different counter offer to each offer.  See which of their counters get accepted and then choose the one they want to accept.  It's nuts.  Another horrible tactic I have seen is the seller counters with "what is the highest price you will pay with a blank to fill in."  This nonsense is driven by investors.  Even if there is only minimal appreciation it is still better in the long run then a lot of other investments these days.  It happens in all types of property.  Not just houses.


There is even more trickery out here. A buyer can make a high offer to beat out all others, you accept, the other buyers all go away. The buyer enters the contract but then says that their bank won't loan them the full amount you accepted because the comps don't reflect the market in your neighborhood and offer to pay you 30,000 less (happened to us). The place will look tainted to buyers if you re-list so in the interest of expediency you take it and it's a bitter transaction. 

The other thing is that for the properties we have in the hot spots there are so many buyers that to make your offer stand out you write them letters with family photos inside and embellish your absolute love and respect for the property and wax poetically about your deep emotional attachment to the property in question!  Fun times! ... and now my kids are getting older and my wife wants to go through this all again in a few years when our little one goes off to college!


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## Kevin T (Dec 24, 2021)

Janderso said:


> 8 offers, we lost



Sorry to read this as a fellow garage dweller. Good luck on the search going forward. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find a house with a large garage. Listings here don't even show the garage. It's like the entire real estate market out here has no clue. I would tell the RA that we want a house with a large garage or the house situated in such a way that I can extend the garage. I would have to comb though listings she didn't show us and explain that this house works great look at all that side yard next to the garage. She would say yeah, but there is a tree there! (A small tree, 10" trunk maybe, and above ground planter box for veggies). In the end we had to find our own house, then you get to pay the RA as if they did the early work!


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## Just for fun (Dec 24, 2021)

Oh Man, bummer dude!  Sorry to read that.

Merry Christmas Jeff.

Tim


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## davidpbest (Dec 24, 2021)

Kevin T said:


> There is even more trickery out here. A buyer can make a high offer to beat out all others, you accept, the other buyers all go away. The buyer enters the contract but then says that their bank won't loan them the full amount you accepted because the comps don't reflect the market in your neighborhood and offer to pay you 30,000 less (happened to us). The place will look tainted to buyers if you re-list so in the interest of expediency you take it and it's a bitter transaction.
> 
> The other thing is that for the properties we have in the hot spots there are so many buyers that to make your offer stand out you write them letters with family photos inside and embellish your absolute love and respect for the property and wax poetically about your deep emotional attachment to the property in question!  Fun times! ... and now my kids are getting older and my wife wants to go through this all again in a few years when our little one goes off to college!


You can protect yourself when selling by insisting on all cash or pre-approved lending letter of credit from the bank.  You can also accept a backup offer, so if the first choice fails to perform, you at least have #2 in the wings and this will keep pressure on your first choice.  A good RE agent will know all this.


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## davidpbest (Dec 24, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I think the discouraging thing is to see the demand for nice homes with a bit of property.
> It wasn't meant to be.
> Thanks for the kind and heartfelt comments.
> I appreciate it.
> ...


Sorry to hear you don't end up in contract.  I'm curious if you thought your RE agent was giving you sound advice on what the offer needed to be to land the deal.  A top producing agent will have a nose for what's required, lesser agents often do not.


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## Kevin T (Dec 24, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> You can protect yourself when selling by insisting on all cash or pre-approved lending letter of credit from the bank.  You can also accept a backup offer, so if the first choice fails to perform, you at least have #2 in the wings and this will keep pressure on your first choice.  A good RE agent will know all this.


I forget all the details about the transaction but we did all the right stuff IIRC...and still got shafted. I recall being so far along in the deal that we were looking for a place to rent since we hadn't found a new house to buy and then the games began. Our realtor said that this was a trick...maybe she just goofed and didn't cover us properly? Of course we had their emotional letter of how they would just die if they couldn't raise their kids in our house! LOL


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## Ischgl99 (Dec 24, 2021)

Kevin T said:


> Sorry to read this as a fellow garage dweller. Good luck on the search going forward. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find a house with a large garage. Listings here don't even show the garage. It's like the entire real estate market out here has no clue. I would tell the RA that we want a house with a large garage or the house situated in such a way that I can extend the garage. I would have to comb though listings she didn't show us and explain that this house works great look at all that side yard next to the garage. She would say yeah, but there is a tree there! (A small tree, 10" trunk maybe, and above ground planter box for veggies). In the end we had to find our own house, then you get to pay the RA as if they did the early work!


Our realtor thought I was joking when I said the same thing, but she found a house with an awesome workshop where the owner rebuilt old trucks and realized I was serious when I looked at the shop first lol.  We didn’t like the house, or location, but I would be in heaven with that shop in our current house.


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## MyLilMule (Dec 24, 2021)

Sorry they didn't choose your offer.


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## Janderso (Dec 24, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Sorry to hear you don't end up in contract.  I'm curious if you thought your RE agent was giving you sound advice on what the offer needed to be to land the deal.  A top producing agent will have a nose for what's required, lesser agents often do not.


Funny, I was thinking the same thing.
Our agent was out of town. Her stand in is who we dealt with.


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## MyLilMule (Dec 25, 2021)

Just curious if you ever considered relocating, if you could. For that kind of money, there are places in this country that could buy you not only the house you want, but the shop you really want, without all the BS.

I like where I live. We bought this place, not only for the house and property, but because it's less than 15 minutes from where we both work. Had I known 4 years ago that there'd be a global pandemic that would change the rules on working from home, we would have bought someplace a little further out, with more land, so I could build the shop I really want, without my wife vetoing it because of the yard we would lose.  My employer has removed almost every limitation on where I can work from, except outside the US. Anywhere else is fair game.


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## Janderso (Dec 25, 2021)

MyLilMule said:


> Just curious if you ever considered relocating, if you could. For that kind of money, there are places in this country that could buy you not only the house you want, but the shop you really want, without all the BS.
> 
> I like where I live. We bought this place, not only for the house and property, but because it's less than 15 minutes from where we both work. Had I known 4 years ago that there'd be a global pandemic that would change the rules on working from home, we would have bought someplace a little further out, with more land, so I could build the shop I really want, without my wife vetoing it because of the yard we would lose.  My employer has removed almost every limitation on where I can work from, except outside the US. Anywhere else is fair game.


My wife would never leave her grandkids. Granted many Californians are leaving the state to elevate home pricing across the country.
I wouldn't mind moving and the fact we have a travel trailer and all the time in the world, we could visit regularly.
Maybe I can talk her into looking at possible home sites in neighboring states.


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## mickri (Dec 26, 2021)

When I was searching for a home I did all of my own research.  Everything is on Realtor.com and Zillow.  When I would find something interesting I would contact the listing agent and make the offer through the listing agent.  That gives the listing agent a big incentive to be get your offer accepted.  The LA gets both sides of the commission.   That's huge.  On an $800,000 property that's over $20,000.

My advise is to don't rely on an agent to find your new home.  Spend 10 minutes each evening to check out the new listings in the areas you would like to live.  When you find a place, call the LA to make an appointment to look at the home.  Don't text or email.  Call on the phone.  You will have a better chance of getting your offer accepted.


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## matthewsx (Dec 26, 2021)

There are many good places in this country, and others as well.

But, home is home.

I left California in 2001 for Arizona, then to Northern Michigan for 10 years. Got lucky and had the chance to move back last year.

Wife and I are still trying to work it out as she is happiest in the small town she grew to love as a kid.

We looked at a few other places but it seems like now isn’t the time for us to sell out and relocate. It’s hard when you can walk to the beach from either one.

We are blessed that we don’t have to make a decision right now, I suspect you are too Jeff.

One thing you could consider is once your retired hit the road in that trailer and spend some time in other parts of the country where you might like to settle. It takes quite a while to get to know a place, and maybe in that time the real estate market will cool down some. Or maybe you learn to love your current home more, it doesn’t seem all that bad.

John


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## matthewsx (Dec 26, 2021)

One other thing I just thought of is something Airstream folks do. People will offer their places for self contained camping, kinda like a home swap without the swapping part. Makes it nice when traveling to meet up with others who share an interest.

I wonder if hobby-machinist folks would like to start a thread where we could do something like that, just a thought.

John


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## davidpbest (Dec 26, 2021)

mickri said:


> When I was searching for a home I did all of my own research.  Everything is on Realtor.com and Zillow.  When I would find something interesting I would contact the listing agent and make the offer through the listing agent.  That gives the listing agent a big incentive to be get your offer accepted.  The LA gets both sides of the commission.   That's huge.  On an $800,000 property that's over $20,000.


Such an arrangement has a built-in conflict of interest - you'll never be sure your trade was at market, and it opens the door to all kinds of nefarious activity.  I've probably done 50 residential transactions the past 20 years, and every time the broker has double-ended the deal (representing seller and buyer), I've gotten screwed. 

Maybe that strategy works in declining or soggy markets, but in ascending markets with lots of competition, it sounds good, but can backfire badly.  IMO, better practice in hot market is to find the top producer in the particular market - interview, do extensive research, talk to anyone you can to get satisfied that your agent is the best in your marketplace (as measured by dollar volume, days on market, percentage completion, etc.) . Talk to the town - including mortage broakers, the broker office branch manager, contractors, insurance agents, etc..  Then engage the top broker on the sale of your existing home (if in the same market), and sign them on the purchase of your  new property and offer them an off-book bonus if the purchase goes through (local laws permitting).   In hot markets (like Chico), having the best agent in the area will aid in knowing your offer is above the water line, and that the terms of offer and acceptance are tight, and have a  contingency plan if the offer is declined (backup position for instance).


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## Ischgl99 (Dec 26, 2021)

I’m with David on this, for a transaction this large, I would want someone representing my interests to the best of their ability and not have any possibility of conflict of interest.  I would probably go as far as finding an agent in a different office as well.  Here in CT I don’t believe a real estate agent can represent both a buyer and seller.  When we bought our house, I recall having to sign a statement that our realtor would only represent us in the transaction, and seller contracts usually have that statement in there as well.  So here, if you contact the sellers agent to try and do a deal with just one agent, you would be on your own.


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## matthewsx (Dec 26, 2021)

We've had our agent represent the seller, not sure I'd do it the other way....

John


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## MyLilMule (Dec 26, 2021)

I would never use the listing agent as mine. Even though, ethically, they are supposed to remain "neutral", I wouldn't trust them. But it's also in the buyer's self interest to get the largest sales price. Screwed no matter what.


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## 7milesup (Dec 26, 2021)

There is a realtor in a small (10,000 people)  nearby town that quite frequently represents both the seller and the buyer.  A lot of back door deals are done with this arrangement.  She routinely has a buyer lined up before the house is even listed and basically screws over any other potential buyers, and in reality, screws over the seller because she wants the full commission.  Yes, she is one of the "top-producing" realtors in the state, but she has no ethics whatsoever.

Sidebar:  It does not matter how "good the people are" when it comes to transactions of this magnitude, there must be a contract with all appropriate sections filled out correctly.  I hope you don't take that personally Jeff if you read this, but it is important that these contracts are done correctly.


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## mickri (Dec 26, 2021)

We are talking about California.  What may work in other parts of the country probably doesn't apply to California.  Especially in today's seller's market.   What may have worked even a couple of years ago won't work in California's current crazy real estate market.

In days gone by when an offer would come in on a property the listing agent and the buying agent would meet face to face with the seller to go over the offer.  The buying agent got to make their pitch directly to the seller.  Even in multiple offer situations you still had a face to face meeting between the agents and the seller.  These days everything is digital.  Agents won't even write an offer by hand.  The offer is filled out on the computer and sent by docusign for signature.  Then sent digitally over the internet.  No face to face.  Sometimes even the listing agent doesn't meet face to face with the seller to go over the offers.  It is done on zoom, facetime or by phone.  That is why offer letters have become popular.  So if you use a buying agent the fate of your offer is left in the hands of the listing agent.  That is the only person who has any contact with the seller.

In California all agents involved in a transaction whether listing or buying have to disclose everything that they know about the property to the buyer.  The only thing that can be held back is what a seller may sell for.  A listing agent can't disclose that to the buyer's agent.  So I don't see what a buyer's agent really does in today's market other than fill out the offer.

Prequalifying letters only say that the buyer is qualified for a certain loan amount.  Have nothing to do with the property.  The property still has to appraise if a loan is involved and pass all of the different inspections that take place.

IMHO based upon a lifetime of involvement in California real estate in today's crazy real estate market your best chance of getting an offer accepted is to go through the listing agent.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 26, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Such an arrangement has a built-in conflict of interest - you'll never be sure your trade was at market, and it opens the door to all kinds of nefarious activity.  I've probably done 50 residential transactions the past 20 years, and every time the broker has double-ended the deal (representing seller and buyer), I've gotten screwed.
> 
> Maybe that strategy works in declining or soggy markets, but in ascending markets with lots of competition, it sounds good, but can backfire badly.  IMO, better practice in hot market is to find the top producer in the particular market - interview, do extensive research, talk to anyone you can to get satisfied that your agent is the best in your marketplace (as measured by dollar volume, days on market, percentage completion, etc.) . Talk to the town - including mortage broakers, the broker office branch manager, contractors, insurance agents, etc..  Then engage the top broker on the sale of your existing home (if in the same market), and sign them on the purchase of your  new property and offer them an off-book bonus if the purchase goes through (local laws permitting).   In hot markets (like Chico), having the best agent in the area will aid in knowing your offer is above the water line, and that the terms of offer and acceptance are tight, and have a  contingency plan if the offer is declined (backup position for instance).


In Canada when the seller's agent is also representing a potential buyer, the buyer cannot negotiate the commission because commission is determined by the seller not the buyer. 
I did this once and would never suggest it as a strategy.


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## Dabbler (Dec 26, 2021)

@DavidR8 It is now against the REB rules for a realtor to 'double end' the agreement in B.C.

We are still trying to move to BC, but it is getting a lot harder as prices are still going up over 20% in rural areas there every year.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 26, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @DavidR8 It is now against the REB rules for a realtor to 'double end' the agreement in B.C.
> 
> We are still trying to move to BC, but it is getting a lot harder as prices are still going up over 20% in rural areas there every year.


I'm happy to hear they changed the rules because it really was a goofy setup.
Good luck moving...seriously prices are through the roof though I hear property in the Fraser Valley is available so long as you own a boat!


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## MyLilMule (Dec 26, 2021)

mickri said:


> So I don't see what a buyer's agent really does in today's market other than fill out the offer.



Partly true, from a pure process standpoint, especially if you just met your agent.

There is value in a buyer's agent. My agent (as the buyer) was also a high school classmate and a friend. There were plenty of listings that we looked at that she told us to walk away from and don't bother. She knew the neighborhoods and local amenities and valuations better than we did. She saved us from having to do a lot of that research in our own. She told us about a client she has had for over 2 years that is still looking for that perfect house. She may never find it, but she knows them well, and knows what NOT to show them.


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## ptross (Dec 26, 2021)

If you don't know what an agent really does, then you probably have never had a good one. A good agent knows the neighborhoods and their values, knows the better and the worse builders, knows the good subs to call to do repairs and estimates, knows the local codes and can find the things a seller is not telling. A good agent prepares the parperwork and other professionals ahead of time so there is no scrambling or making blind guesses about lenders, inspectors, or what to spend money on. A good agent will understand what you are looking for right away and not waste your time (or theirs) showing you stuff you're not going to buy.
    My wife was a great agent- not always (but usually) the top money maker, but worked diligently for her clients, either buying or selling. 
She regularly negotiated on behalf of clients to get a better deal for them (even if it meant her commission was lower). She regularly warned against buying a house she thought could be a problem for them later, even if it meant she never got paid. 
    In short, a good agent will work hard on your behalf. Anyone who doesn't do that is not a good agent, and there are plenty of them! An agent who represents both seller and buyer is really only representing themself.
today's market is nuts. It doesn't take a great agent to sell a house these days, but can sure make buying less painful.


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## davidpbest (Dec 26, 2021)

ptross said:


> If you don't know what an agent really does, then you probably have never had a good one. A good agent knows the neighborhoods and their values, knows the better and the worse builders, knows the good subs to call to do repairs and estimates, knows the local codes and can find the things a seller is not telling. A good agent prepares the parperwork and other professionals ahead of time so there is no scrambling or making blind guesses about lenders, inspectors, or what to spend money on. A good agent will understand what you are looking for right away and not waste your time (or theirs) showing you stuff you're not going to buy.


@ptross is speaking the truth here.  I do a lot of remodel consulting and advisory work for agents - the good ones turn to me (or someone like me) to evaluate and advise potential buyers on condition and remodeling design ideas/limitations/costs/etc. prior to making an offer.  A really good agent is worth every penny in commission, but if you haven't worked with a great agent, then you probably can't relate to their value added.  I get to work with a lot of agents _*in my business*_.


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## Janderso (Dec 27, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> @DavidR8 It is now against the REB rules for a realtor to 'double end' the agreement in B.C.
> 
> We are still trying to move to BC, but it is getting a lot harder as prices are still going up over 20% in rural areas there every year.


It appears that real estate is in high demand just about everywhere these days.
Double digit increases year over year should not be sustainable.
My wife and I searched outside of our immediate area to find some very good deals.
Then we determined water or lack of it may be the reason for these desperate sellers.
This 20 year drought has caused ground water reserves to be in bad shape. 
One thing about moving into the county is you don't have city services such as sewer, water and natural gas.


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## woodchucker (Dec 27, 2021)

Janderso said:


> It appears that real estate is in high demand just about everywhere these days.
> Double digit increases year over year should not be sustainable.
> My wife and I searched outside of our immediate area to find some very good deals.
> Then we determined water or lack of it may be the reason for these desperate sellers.
> ...


That can be a blessing as well.
it goes both ways.


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## mickri (Dec 27, 2021)

Having public water has its pros and cons.  The biggest pro is always having water.  The only caveat to that is if the public utility's source of water dries up then you will have water rationing.  Not very likely.  The biggest con is cost.  Even modern houses are not designed to conserve water.  I know all about conserving water.  I lived on my sailboat for 9 years away from a dock.  I had an 80 gallon water tank.  I had to haul my water most of the time.  5 gallon jugs of water are heavy.  What is the biggest waster of water?  Pressure water where you turn on the tap and the water flows.  I have a pressure water system on my sailboat.  If I used the pressure water system my 80 gallons of water would last 2 to maybe 3 weeks.  Using the foot pump the 80 gallons would last 2 months.  How much water does it take for a guy to take a shower?  12 cups using a garden spraying. 

In the area I just moved to water is expensive.  I am anticipating paying up to $100 per month for water.  My Ex-wife and her husband live in Paso Robles.  They are avid gardeners.  Their water bill averages $400 per month.

Not much difference between sewer verses septic other than cost.  The biggest difference is not flushing anything other than pee and poop down the toilet and not using the garage disposal when you have a septic system.  Toilet paper, etc. and food scraps have to go in the garbage.  The cost of sewer is now getting tied to how much water you use.  Use more water.  Pay more for sewer.  Kind of makes sense if you think about it.  The initial cost of a septic system is very close to the cost to connect to the sewer in a lot of areas.  Once installed a septic system has no cost other than having the septic tank periodically pumped.  How often depends on what you flush down the toilet and put through the garbage disposal.  I think that my public sewer cost is going to be around $35 per month.

Natural gas verses propane is a wash.

Adding a 5,000 gallon storage tank to a low producing well and using solar to run the pump solves the problem of a low producing well.


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## Janderso (Dec 27, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> That can be a blessing as well.
> it goes both ways.


We all remember those that purchased a home in 2007 and two years later the value had been cut in half.
People walked away from their homes.
It can certainly happen again. The creative interest only loans are available as before.
I swear we never learn.


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## Janderso (Dec 27, 2021)

mickri said:


> Their water bill averages $400 per month.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Janderso (Dec 27, 2021)

mickri said:


> Having public water has its pros and cons.  The biggest pro is always having water.  The only caveat to that is if the public utility's source of water dries up then you will have water rationing.  Not very likely.  The biggest con is cost.  Even modern houses are not designed to conserve water.  I know all about conserving water.  I lived on my sailboat for 9 years away from a dock.  I had an 80 gallon water tank.  I had to haul my water most of the time.  5 gallon jugs of water are heavy.  What is the biggest waster of water?  Pressure water where you turn on the tap and the water flows.  I have a pressure water system on my sailboat.  If I used the pressure water system my 80 gallons of water would last 2 to maybe 3 weeks.  Using the foot pump the 80 gallons would last 2 months.  How much water does it take for a guy to take a shower?  12 cups using a garden spraying.
> 
> In the area I just moved to water is expensive.  I am anticipating paying up to $100 per month for water.  My Ex-wife and her husband live in Paso Robles.  They are avid gardeners.  Their water bill averages $400 per month.
> 
> ...


After living with a septic tank for 33 years, city sewer is a nice luxury but we know there is no hardship to septic.


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## mickri (Dec 27, 2021)

I did real estate appraisals for most of my working life.  Around 10,000 residential appraisals.  The only time that property values declined like Jeff mentioned was during the 2007 crash.  We would see massive appreciation in home values at times followed by a leveling off period before appreciation would start again.  Foreclosures mostly occurred in homes with 10% or less down where people got behind in their payments.  Not enough equity to cover selling costs and bring the loan current.  Not to say it won't happen again.

Jeff keep looking you will eventually find a home that meets your needs.


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## Ischgl99 (Dec 27, 2021)

mickri said:


> Having public water has its pros and cons.  The biggest pro is always having water.  The only caveat to that is if the public utility's source of water dries up then you will have water rationing.  Not very likely.  The biggest con is cost.  Even modern houses are not designed to conserve water.  I know all about conserving water.  I lived on my sailboat for 9 years away from a dock.  I had an 80 gallon water tank.  I had to haul my water most of the time.  5 gallon jugs of water are heavy.  What is the biggest waster of water?  Pressure water where you turn on the tap and the water flows.  I have a pressure water system on my sailboat.  If I used the pressure water system my 80 gallons of water would last 2 to maybe 3 weeks.  Using the foot pump the 80 gallons would last 2 months.  How much water does it take for a guy to take a shower?  12 cups using a garden spraying.
> 
> In the area I just moved to water is expensive.  I am anticipating paying up to $100 per month for water.  My Ex-wife and her husband live in Paso Robles.  They are avid gardeners.  Their water bill averages $400 per month.
> 
> ...


Sewer usage has been based on water usage here in CT for a long time.  The costs for sewer are about the same as for water, so your ex wife would be paying a small fortune here.  We don’t usually allow separate water meters in a residence, so she would be paying sewer fees on all that water going into the garden.


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## woodchucker (Dec 27, 2021)

mickri said:


> Not much difference between sewer verses septic other than cost.  The biggest difference is not flushing anything other than pee and poop down the toilet and not using the garage disposal when you have a septic system.  Toilet paper, etc. and food scraps have to go in the garbage.  The cost of sewer is now getting tied to how much water you use.  Use more water.  Pay more for sewer.  Kind of makes sense if you think about it.  The initial cost of a septic system is very close to the cost to connect to the sewer in a lot of areas.  Once installed a septic system has no cost other than having the septic tank periodically pumped.  How often depends on what you flush down the toilet and put through the garbage disposal.  I think that my public sewer cost is going to be around $35 per month.


*not true, we flush toilet paper down our septic system.  The toilet paper goes to the holding tank and breaks down. *
as far as gardening, my neighbor is a huge gardener, and even though we have well water, they have massive holding tanks, their downspouts go to the 55 gal drums, which overflow to the tanks, when their kids were young they had a swing set, and he replaced the soft top for the fort with a corrugated fiberglass, that fills the massive holding tanks as well.   Any water collected goes to the tanks.. they never have overflow go into the ground, there's enough water going to the ground already on their 3 or 4 acre property.  All of that goes to the gardens. They eat very healthy.

We are now 7 years between pump outs, because we are only 2 people.. last cost was 1200 to pump out the holding tank, then we found out our pumps had failed so we had to pump out that tank too... 1200 more, then the cost of plumbing and new pumps.. Don't remember what I paid, but it wasn't so bad.


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## FOMOGO (Dec 27, 2021)

You must have a mound system. I installed septic systems with my dad, and latter owned my own excavating co., and did many more, including my own. Much depends on your soils, and being designed for your location. If a system is designed and installed correctly, you should never even need to pump your tank. I had mine pumped 25 years after I installed it just on GP, and there were hardly any solids in it. Bacteria are very efficient at breaking things down. Mike


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## extropic (Dec 27, 2021)

@FOMOGO 

Do you recommend any particular additives or procedures to keep the septic system in tip-top shape?


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## Ischgl99 (Dec 27, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> *not true, we flush toilet paper down our septic system.  The toilet paper goes to the holding tank and breaks down. *
> as far as gardening, my neighbor is a huge gardener, and even though we have well water, they have massive holding tanks, their downspouts go to the 55 gal drums, which overflow to the tanks, when their kids were young they had a swing set, and he replaced the soft top for the fort with a corrugated fiberglass, that fills the massive holding tanks as well.   Any water collected goes to the tanks.. they never have overflow go into the ground, there's enough water going to the ground already on their 3 or 4 acre property.  All of that goes to the gardens. They eat very healthy.
> 
> We are now 7 years between pump outs, because we are only 2 people.. last cost was 1200 to pump out the holding tank, then we found out our pumps had failed so we had to pump out that tank too... 1200 more, then the cost of plumbing and new pumps.. Don't remember what I paid, but it wasn't so bad.


$1,200 to pump out your septic tank!?  Holy $hit that’s expensive, last time we did our 1250 gallon tank was $300.


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## rabler (Dec 27, 2021)

extropic said:


> @FOMOGO
> 
> Do you recommend any particular additives or procedures to keep the septic system in tip-top shape?


Mike may have other cmments, but I’ve lived with septic tanks most of my life, put in a second one last year for the bathroom at the barns.  Biggest thing I’m aware of is to be a little sparing with the bleach, as too much will kill the bacteria in the tank that dissolve the wastes.

We’re on public water, but no sewer available.  No big deal.  Use a fair amount of water for the barns, which are on a separate meter.


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## DavidR8 (Dec 27, 2021)

I’ve had two houses on septic systems and never had a problem. Every once in a while we’d throw a packet of Septonic down the loo. We never had to have a tank pumped in over 15 years.


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## FOMOGO (Dec 27, 2021)

Not really, some suggest periodically adding bacteria enhancing products, but I don't think it's needed. Stick to liquid detergent for your wash machine, back in the day high levels of phosphates in detergent killed a lot of septic systems, but they are better regulated now. Try to spread out loads, and go easy on the bleach. Make sure you know where your tank is, and avoid running anything heavy over it. If you have a clogged drain, and have to use a powered drain snake, best to have access to your tank inlet to make sure the baffle isn't damaged, as it can lead to serious problems. Most commercial drain cleaning co.'s use camera's now, and that helps prevent over zealous operators from messing things up. Mike

Quote: Do you recommend any particular additives or procedures to keep the septic system in tip-top shape?


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## Ischgl99 (Dec 28, 2021)

One thing that often gets removed in septic tanks due to maintenance requirements is an outlet filter.  The outlet has a tee elbow for the water to flow into the septic field, water under normal conditions flows from the under side through a filter to the outlet pipe.  The filter should be cleaned annually to keep the water flowing, you simply pull the filter out and hose it off.  When cleaning the filter, you use a stick to see how deep the solids are in the secondary settling chamber, and if they are getting close to the outlet elbow, schedule a pump out.  If the water is up to the top of the tee, then the opening at the bottom is clogged and you need an immediate pump out.  The outlet filter helps keep your drainage field cleaner and extending it’s life.

At the recommendation of my septic company, I added risers to the lids for my tank so that I don’t have to dig as much to expose the lids, makes inspections much easier and faster, and more likely to be done.  I used black corrugated plastic pipe the same diameter as the lids.  They are now a couple inches below the surface instead of almost a foot before.

Here is a picture of an elbow with a filter.  The filter is normally installed all the way in, I pulled it out for the photo.  I bought this online and then my septic guy said don’t use that one!  Apparently this style filter clogs more often than the ones available locally, so bought one of those instead to install.  Don’t have a picture of that one.


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## extropic (Dec 28, 2021)

@Ischgl99

The septic system I own is my first and was there when I bought the property.
Your post is the first I've ever heard of the filter.
Thank you for the info. Not hobby metalwork, but very useful for me.
I'll check it out when I get back to that property.


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## Ischgl99 (Dec 28, 2021)

extropic said:


> @Ischgl99
> 
> The septic system I own is my first and was there when I bought the property.
> Your post is the first I've ever heard of the filter.
> ...


You’re welcome, this is my first house with a septic system, and it has been a learning experience for me as well.  I believe my septic guy said the filters were optional when most of the houses were built around me, but are now required to be installed here.  Many people remove the filters instead of cleaning them, and the first septic company we used never even mentioned the filter was not there.  I clean the filter each time I check the solids level in the tank, I would rather do a bit of maintenance than spent $20,000+ replacing a drainage field.


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## Tipton1965 (Dec 28, 2021)

My septic system is a basic gravity fed system put in 30 years ago.  I've had it pumped once only because my wife talked me into it.  It functions perfectly.


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## woodchucker (Dec 28, 2021)

Tipton1965 said:


> My septic system is a basic gravity fed system put in 30 years ago.  I've had it pumped once only because my wife talked me into it.  It functions perfectly.


only once?
you have a holding tank..
those solids accumulate like gunk in the bottom.
if they get out to your leach field, it will clog the leach field and you will need a new system, it takes time, but its the way it works.
My dad didn't pump ours when I grew up, but we lived on a sand barge, underneath the soil was all sand.. it doesn't clog like clay or soil.


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## Tipton1965 (Dec 28, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> only once?
> you have a holding tank..
> those solids accumulate like gunk in the bottom.
> if they get out to your leach field, it will clog the leach field and you will need a new system, it takes time, but its the way it works.
> My dad didn't pump ours when I grew up, but we lived on a sand barge, underneath the soil was all sand.. it doesn't clog like clay or soil.


My soil is rock and sand.  We have no clay at all.  You could fill up a hole with water and it would be gone 10 minutes later.


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