# New D1-4 Spindle



## HMF (Sep 25, 2018)

There is a D1-4 spindle on Ebay. I want to buy one to replace my scarred one.  This one has a scarred bullgear pin.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/South-Bend...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


Question, can I strip down this spindle and put my bull gear on it to have a nicer bull gear pin?
If so, how big a PITA will this be?

TIA.


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## dlane (Sep 25, 2018)

That would be a nice upgrade but you would need different chucks, it’s been a while since I had mine apart but if I remember rite the bull gear is a snug fit on the spindle. If you remove the cone pulley you should be able to change the pin out. The spindle shims will probably need to be changed for the correct fit “lift test” . if your bronze bearings are descent you could probably sell them , do you have the 10L refurbish book ? It has good info for setting it up.

Ps, glad to hear your getting her going


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## HMF (Sep 25, 2018)

So, from what you are saying, it won't be that easy to just switch out the old spindle , put the old bull gear on the new spindle and get it into the machine. I do have the refurbish book from a few years back, but, I am one of those guys who needs to be shown, which Eddye has offered to do.

I will be doing my best to get her going....hope I can do it.....


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## woodtickgreg (Sep 25, 2018)

It's not that tough  Nelson. Read my rebuild thread as I posted lots of pics of the shins, bearing shells, and of the lift test set up. It's all done by hand and not under power. It just takes time sometimes to get it right as far as the shims go. If need be you can order new shims on Ebay now, a guy is making and selling them and they look nice. I made mine because at the time no one was making them. I have always wanted to upgrade mine to a d14 but it works so I leave it alone.


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## dlane (Sep 25, 2018)

If the new spindle bull gear is in good shape I would just change the pull pin and use the whole new spindle assembly.
Greg’s thread on his refurbish should definitely help with your whole refurbish. 
The spindle should be a simple swap, but you will want to get the new spindle oilers (forgot the name) and get the lift test correct, no big deal.


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## derf (Sep 25, 2018)

I'd just replace the pin, but if you have to tear it down, I would definitely drill some more pin detents in the cone pulley.


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## HMF (Sep 26, 2018)

Well, it has bid up to $600, so I am going to go with my old one. For that price, I bet I can have a new one made!


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## dlane (Sep 26, 2018)

Wow, 
What is scarred on your spindle?.


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## HMF (Sep 30, 2018)

Here it is:








I did it improperly removing to old spindle gear 9 years ago when I did not have a puller:





Moronic, and I advertised it on PM and the rest is history:

Here is the good advice I got:

To remove the small left end gear will require you to use a 3 jaw puller. Additionally, you will need to turn an aluminum plug with a center point to stick in the open end of the spindle which will locate the puller's center.
This gear can be tapped back on with a hammer and a large socket or piece of pipe, but using a bench press is a better way to do it.







To remove the bull gear is going to require you to use a bench press to get it off. It is a very tight sliding fit, as you will see if you put it in a 12T press and begin to remove it.
This gear must be pressed back on using the bench press also.
A note of caution here....... although I have never seen this mentioned, when you replace the bull gear the natural thing to do is press it homeagainst the spindle shoulder. My friend and I did this on his 10L and all seemed fine until we mounted the spindle back in place.
The bull gear had zero clearance with the casting of the headstock, and did not allow the spindle to rotate.
We had to remove the spindle and press the bull gear back away from the spindle shoulder until it cleared. (It took us 2 times to get it right)
If you do not own or have access to a 12T bench press, then this is a good time and reason to buy one. You can get it at Harbor Freight for about $129. A POS certainly, as it is made in China, but it will do the job. 
Then you will also own a press that you will use for many other things in the future............. pg
Note:
http://www.autozone.com/in_our_store.............THAT WILL WORK FINE.


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## HMF (Sep 30, 2018)

*





 Heavy 10 Spindle Removal.....New Thread*
*PG,
 I bought the 12T shop press ($129) and a 3 pc3 jaw puller at Horrible Freight as you suggested. I want to put the extended collar handlever closer spindle gear (the one I had to swap for the old one that was for a handwheel) on my spindle.
 The press has two arbor plates that go on the jack arm. The 12T hydrolic bottle jack lowers the pointed projection to the arbor plates.
 My question is how do I set up the spindle which still has the other gears on it and the brass bearings. I dont want to crush or damage anything. Do I set the spindle on the floor* (NO, see below)* with a piece of thick wood under it and press the new gear on by using a steel plate or block of wood under the pointed projection? How would you do it?
 Thanks,
 Thumbz (Nelson)*

Allthumbz......I started a new thread so that Mystery Tour's thread did not get Hi-Jacked.
You have got to give me a little help here, as I am not real clear on what your question is.
It sounds like you need to know how to position your spindle in the press to remove/install the gears? Going with that assumption........






These are the steps (1 through 4) that you need to do to remove the spindle from the large gear.
The gear face sits on top of the press plates and using a wood block between the ram and the spindle end you press the spindle through the large gear.
Install is just the reverse............ pg​


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## HMF (Sep 30, 2018)

AllThumbzGuest
*




*






 Originally Posted by *jim rozen* 


Funny dave sobel never said anything about a hammer.

As far as putting the new one on, gentle would be a long piece of 3/8 inch
all-thread and a block with hole, on each end of the spindle. Then just
wrench it into place.

I like the modified puller jaws though. But they do bear on the tips of the
gear teeth, go gentle with that.

Jim
I don't know how anyone could do it without a hammer. I'm considered fairly strong for an old man and I had to whack it real good to get it off!

What about making some sort of a drawbar with the threaded rod, steel plate and nut that I can use to slowly force the extended sleeve gear on without spoiling anything?


Thumbz​


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02-22-2009, 08:20 PM#22
AllThumbzGuest
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*






 Originally Posted by *piniongear* 


This is a prime example of not using the proper tools so thanks for the post.
To any of you out there needing to do the same thing. Use a puller!........ pg
pg,

I'm no paper tiger when it comes to TRYING....so I gave it a shot, then posted it to show everyone to GET THE PULLER. I will be getting one myself ASAP for future use.

The damage isn't irreparable I don't think, and there are new spindles available (thank goodness they arent made out of unobtainium yet), though it is a lesson for all of us to be prepared and use the right equipment.

The other day, I had a Burke #4 mill delivered to my house. The deliveryguy had a huge look of relief on his face when I rolled the engine crane up to his truck. We slung the overarm and lifted it right off in 5 minutes in the pouring frozen rain and snow. Thank goodness I had the right equipment that time!


Thumbz (Nelson)​


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02-22-2009, 09:52 PM#23



*piniongear*





Stainless

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*
AllThumbz...........
Sorry if my post did not sound like it, but I was commending you for posting the way you took it off.
I knew you were saying.....'Don't do it this way.'
The ground off puller jaws do not affect the gear in the least. We have used this same puller to remove the gear several times now. The fit is a nice snug-slide fit on the spindle.
I cannot find my Heavy 10 paperwork right now, but I am also certain South Bend tells you the end gear can be installed with a hammer. block of wood, and then a pipe sleeve to seat the gear all the way on.

The bull gear is another matter though. It is a very tight fit on the spindle.
That is why I say use a press to remove and install it back on......... pg​


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02-22-2009, 10:03 PM#24
AllThumbzGuest
*





 Shopping list...*
Horrible Freight:

12T Bench Press
3 jaw puller

Won't use them often, but when I do, they will prevent the damage in my posts.






Thumbz​


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02-22-2009, 10:18 PM#25



*piniongear*





Stainless

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*
*Won't use them often,*

You may be surprised! I once thought I would not use a press very often either, before I had the HF that is.
Since then, I wonder how I did without this $129 tool for so long before buying one.
I am amazed how many times this tool is used.

My latest use is to push plugs into forms to make formed items out of aluminum plate.
Use it to hold parts together for welding.
Press lathe made parts together for tight fits etc, etc,etc......... pg​


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02-22-2009, 10:25 PM#26
*Flute Maker*





Cast Iron

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*
For over two weeks I've been pouring over threads regarding the removal and disassembly of SB spindles. I'm putting on a lever collet closer, (thanks Ferrous Antiquos), including changing out that nasty gear everyone writes about. We also have clogged drain holes in the front bearing area that we would not have understood without this forum! Now I have learned of the brass clips that are installed in some of the drain back holes, and that there is a brass tube liner for the oil wick that should be found raised so as to catch a hole in the bearing I guess. It's an amazing body of information that should be a compiled somewhere.

My parts maker / toolmaker / put the new gear on, after using the: "back the split ring out against the gear to make room for the screw drivers" approach, and re-assembled the head, without my telling him to, because he had a bad experience tearing down a South Bend before and thought it prudent to not go any further! I'm very upset with him.
We'll get a puller this week, and remove the new gear, then remove the spindle and flush out the oil runs.
My only question, and concern is that we did not measure the run out before removing the bearing caps. The caps each have shims on only one side. That being the operator side.
Has anyone found that to be common?? Thanks for reading my volume.
Humbly,
Payson.​


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02-22-2009, 11:02 PM#27



*piniongear*





Stainless

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*
*My only question, and concern is that we did not measure the run out before removing the bearing caps. The caps each have shims on only one side. That being the operator side.
 Has anyone found that to be common?? Thanks for reading my volume.
 Payson.*

Hope that both bushings for the wicks stick up just a little to catch the hole in the bearing. It makes locating the bearing(s) correctly much easier when they do.
My friend's Heavy 10 has only the left oil bushing sticking up. The right wick bushing is pressed down flat with the casting and getting the bearing's oil hole lined up over the wick is difficult, to say the very least!

As far as the runout, don't worry about what it was. That is history now.
You will have to shim to get the correct deflection on both bearings.
There is a procedure to follow for the shimming and I assume you have that in front of you since you have already taken the spindle out.
If not, then get a copy of it.
The shims are laminated in layers.
There will be equal thickness of shims on both sides of the bearing caps, so if (presently) one side has shims and the other side does not, then that is wrong!
Both caps need equal thickness of shim packs on each side (within .0005 difference between them).
Correct this when you do the re-install of the spindle and shim it for proper clearance........... pg​


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02-22-2009, 11:30 PM#28
*Flute Maker*





Cast Iron

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I have not physically removed the spindle yet. Everything was ready before that guy put it back together again.
Thinking about the wick tubes, doesen't the expander on the cap hold the bearing in the correct orientation too? Who are the resources for the shim packs?
Payson​


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02-23-2009, 12:01 AM#29



*piniongear*





Stainless

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 Originally Posted by *Flute Maker* 


I have not physically removed the spindle yet. Everything was ready before that guy put it back together again.
Thinking about the wick tubes, doesen't the expander on the cap hold the bearing in the correct orientation too? Who are the resources for the shim packs?
Payson
The expanders do somewhat locate the bearings over the oil wicks but there is a lot of play in the location before the expander is drawn up into the slot in the bearing. It is just easier to have the bushings stick up just enough to catch the hole in the bearing, especially when it comes to left/right hand positioning of the bearing. That is where we had the greatest difficulty.
Whatever your machine has is what you will have to work with.

Shim packs are available from LeBlond, although they may be quite expensive compared to other sources.
My friend bought his shim packs local and I believe he has bought them from MSC as well.
I am sure a member here will have the best source for them.
So let's hear someone post on that.............. pg​


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02-23-2009, 12:12 AM#30
*jim rozen*





Diamond

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Nelson I would say your spindle is still fine. My approach would be to stone the
high spots off the end where they were raised up and call it a day. Keep the
bearings and journals clean from any of the residue of this operation however!

You and I are saying the same thing about making a draw-in fixture for the new
longer gear. Basically just a piece of all-thread that goes all the way though the
spindle, and two flat plates with holes in them to pass the threaded rod, so it
pull it all together.

In this photo you can see my all-purpose squeezer-upper, here it was being used
to pull a bearing into place in an elgin headstock. Sometimes it has some oak
pieces on the ends, sometimes a nylon block, here a sturmey archer bike hub
was just the right size to hit the OD of the bearing:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/BB59_4.jpg

You could hammer the gear on with a soft hammer, but the steady gentle
draw in of the threaded rod puller is very nice.

Jim​


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02-23-2009, 12:44 PM#31
AllThumbzGuest
*





 What size 3 jaw puller?*






 Originally Posted by *piniongear* 


*Won't use them often,*

You may be surprised! I once thought I would not use a press very often either, before I had the HF that is.
Since then, I wonder how I did without this $129 tool for so long before buying one.
I am amazed how many times this tool is used.

My latest use is to push plugs into forms to make formed items out of aluminum plate.
Use it to hold parts together for welding.
Press lathe made parts together for tight fits etc, etc,etc......... pg
pg, I am sure you are right, I will end up wondering how I ever got along without it!

Question: Enco has many size 3 jaw pullers....what size do you guys recommend for what we need to do? 3-1/4" ok or larger (price increases as you go up)

TIA

Thumbz​


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02-23-2009, 12:48 PM#32
AllThumbzGuest
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*






 Originally Posted by *jim rozen* 


Nelson I would say your spindle is still fine. My approach would be to stone the
high spots off the end where they were raised up and call it a day. Keep the
bearings and journals clean from any of the residue of this operation however!

You and I are saying the same thing about making a draw-in fixture for the new
longer gear. Basically just a piece of all-thread that goes all the way though the
spindle, and two flat plates with holes in them to pass the threaded rod, so it
pull it all together.

In this photo you can see my all-purpose squeezer-upper, here it was being used
to pull a bearing into place in an elgin headstock. Sometimes it has some oak
pieces on the ends, sometimes a nylon block, here a sturmey archer bike hub
was just the right size to hit the OD of the bearing:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/BB59_4.jpg

You could hammer the gear on with a soft hammer, but the steady gentle
draw in of the threaded rod puller is very nice.

Jim
Great advice Jim! I will do just that- stone it smooth and burnished, then I will go to HD, pick up some threaded 3/8, some steel plates, and create the draw-in jig you show.

Any tips on lining the gear up with the keyway such as using a caliper as a guide, or do you just eyeball it and then if you are off reverse the setup, pop the gear off and try again?


Thumbz​


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## HMF (Sep 30, 2018)

9 damn years later, and it STILL sits there apart!


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## dlane (Oct 1, 2018)

To bad your on the other side of the country, 
As long as The bearing surfaces aren’t to badly scarred the spindle should be serviceable.
I found the refurbish book to be essential in reassemble.


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## HMF (Oct 1, 2018)

I think the original advice I got from Jim Rozen 9 years ago (before Paula altered one of my messages and made him think I was a piece of crap) was correct:


*jim rozen*





Diamond
Join DateFeb 2004Locationpeekskill, NYPosts23,859Post Thanks / Like 

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*
Nelson I would say your spindle is still fine. My approach would be to stone the
high spots off the end where they were raised up and call it a day. Keep the
bearings and journals clean from any of the residue of this operation however!

You and I are saying the same thing about making a draw-in fixture for the new
longer gear. Basically just a piece of all-thread that goes all the way though the
spindle, and two flat plates with holes in them to pass the threaded rod, so it
pull it all together.

In this photo you can see my all-purpose squeezer-upper, here it was being used
to pull a bearing into place in an elgin headstock. Sometimes it has some oak
pieces on the ends, sometimes a nylon block, here a sturmey archer bike hub
was just the right size to hit the OD of the bearing:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/BB59_4.jpg

You could hammer the gear on with a soft hammer, but the steady gentle
draw in of the threaded rod puller is very nice.

Jim​​​​I did use an india stone on the bumps. My problem now is getting the extended pulley on and lined up with the key. It allows the lever collet closer to be used.​​​


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