# DIY wire saw designed to slice up a forklift



## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

Have you ever wished you had a nice foot-thick cube of cast iron from which you could machine, say, an entire new lathe headstock? Or a 2ft long 4"x6" slab from which to machine a new cross slide? Or enough of it in convenient shapes that you could use to build up an entire CNC machine? If you have, then you probably found, like I did, that cast iron typically comes cast in shapes that were convenient for whoever cast them and what they were trying to make, and not so much for you to and what you're trying to make. You probably found out that lifting weights are junk iron, tractor ballast weights are made of gold, and durabar is actually made of platinum. You've probably watched a few casting videos, so you know it can be done, but it seems like a P.I.T.A. and there's nothing new or spectacular about it. If you're like me, then you have a junk forklift sitting in your driveway (that the scrap yard won't take because it's beyond their ability to scrap), and every day you walk by it and it flaunts its big beautiful cast counterweight hips at you, daring you to find a way to cut through a foot thick of cast iron. Well, I think I might have found it. 

This particular janky P.O.S. happens to be a diamond wire saw. 




Yes, it's made entirely out of unistrut. Yes, it's janky as hell. It's prototype, ya know, "for testing purposes only." If it works as well as I hope, I'll make something more permanent. Maybe out of welded square tube. Or not.



I know some things about diamond wire cutting as I used to work with subsea diamond wire saws similar to this:






But this one is different. Those offshore ones use a continuous loop wire rope with sintered diamond beads, about 12mm OD. This one uses single-strand wire surplus from the semiconductor industry (used to slice silicon ingots with very little kerf) and has about 0.3mm OD. It is something like a "portable" version of this:






I won't be able to join the ends of 0.3mm steel wire without leaving some kind of knot that would get hung up in the cut, so I won't be able to do it like I used to offshore. I don't know for sure, but from what I've been able to find online, it seems they have it on spools with several miles of wire and I think they wind it off a full spool, through the cut, onto an empty spool, and swap the spools once all the wire has passed through. They can the run the same wire several times before it no longer makes cuts that pass their muster.

My saw is like a hybrid between the two concepts. It's laid out like a subsea saw, but has a single bobbin wound with 1000+ ft of wire. The bobbin spins one way, paying out wire from one end, going out around a system of pulleys like the subsea saw, then wound back onto the same bobbin. It runs until all 1000ft of wire has been moved from one end of the bobbin to the other, then it stops, reverses direction, and runs 1000ft the other way, then stop, repeat.

Here's a video I shot last week. It should help illustrate how it works and provide context for the video that follows it.






After I'm done cutting through the forklift I'll either hang it from the ceiling in my shop as some kind of haphazard guillotine saw, or transform it into something more permanent like a large bandsaw.

Here's an update to the previous video that I just uploaded tonight:






And below is an early attempt at balancing the drum. This thing will be spinning 2700 RPM so it needs to be at least somewhat balanced. I am going to revisit the balancing now that I have the saw mounted in a more substantial frame (as opposed to sitting on Jack stands) and now that I have legit analog-output accelerometers (as opposed to mechanically coupled computer speaker voice coils) to measure the vibrations.


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## FOMOGO (Jan 18, 2022)

Cool idea. Should be interesting to see that counter weight in pieces. Mike


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

FOMOGO said:


> Cool idea. Should be interesting to see that counter weight in pieces. Mike


 I've been recording every step, I have every bit of footage from the beginning to now, but I didn't bother compiling any videos until now because I have bad track record with finishing projects. This one made it past the 90% milestone so it is definitely going to the finish line.  I guarantee you will see sliced up counterweight or catastrophic failure, entertainment either way.


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## brino (Jan 18, 2022)

Well that's sure a big, complex build!

I am "watching".

I agree that the diamond wire will act much differently than the fishing line..... in both places; more friction to the rollers and likely a much different coming off the spool. Likely less whipping/vibration due to stiffness.

Very interesting.
Thanks for sharing.

Brian


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## Navy Chief (Jan 18, 2022)

Interesting project, watching to see how this comes out. I had never heard of this cutting technique before.. Now I just need a junk forklift in my driveway to cut up...


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## ConValSam (Jan 18, 2022)

Completely cool concept. It's like an Amazing Ginsu knife for forklifts!

Can't wait for the cutting to commence


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

brino said:


> Well that's sure a big, complex build!
> 
> I am "watching".
> 
> ...


Thanks. One thing I said in one of the first videos that you didn't gear because I haven't uploaded it yet, is that this isn't/wasn't supposed to be a bug complex build. It was supposed to be a big quick & dirty build, built for a purpose and then decommissioned. But the deeper I've gotten into it, the more my feelings have changed and I've given attention where I didn't originally intend to. If I had known the direction this would go at the start, there's a few things I would have done differently:

Stepper for the traverse lead screw. This was my original idea but I scrapped it in favor of the timing belt drive because that felt "simpler." In hindsight I could have done the electronics in less time than it took me to machine the timing pulleys, and it would have allowed me to dial in the lay length on the drum exactly, and keep track of the traverse position with more accuracy than my proximity sensors allow.

PLC for controlling the VFD. I opted to bring the sensors and buttons straight into the VFD and write a little "PLC" program in the VFD using a separate software for that purpose, and it works, but it is very limited. I'm about at the limit of what I can do inside the drive already, and there's a few more features I'd like to add but can't.

Welded steel construction. This project has used up every bit of my most common erector set accessories and if I ever want to build anything else I'll have to sink a thousand dollars into replenishing my cache, or completely re-do everything I've done in square tube. But, I sorta knew this would be the case, and it is "prototyping" after all; this is to be expected.


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

ConValSam said:


> Completely cool concept. It's like an Amazing Ginsu knife for forklifts!
> 
> Can't wait for the cutting to commence


I shouldn't say this out loud, but...

If this works in real life as well as it does in my head, this should produce cuts with a surface quality nearly as good as a roughing mill (maybe as good as a finishing mill, or possibly even a surface grinder), and as straight as a laser. Or at least as straight as a taut wire. It will be slow, slow, but what time is lost in cutting might be recouped in post-cut roughing. I could conceivably cut just almost up to final desired dimensions and then make only finishing passes on the "raw stock."

You can see what kind of surfaces this technology can yield by searching up "lapidary wire saw" and other similar search terms. Diamond wire sawing is used for some of those geodes you see with the polished flat cuts. 

It is theoretically possible to achieve the results I described but it will depend on my ability to realize them with unistrut contraption off The Red Green Show.


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## johnnyc14 (Jan 18, 2022)

I wonder if you might get better results in testing by using something like MIG welding wire instead if the stretchy fishing line.


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

johnnyc14 said:


> I wonder if you might get better results in testing by using something like MIG welding wire instead if the stretchy fishing line.


I thought about that and checked it out. MIG wire is much too large OD and too stiff to simulate the diamond wire. The diamond wire is 0.3mm (0.012") and my MIG wire is 3X larger at 0.035". I found some 0.3mm metallic "beading" wire in the craft section at Walmart but the longest length they had it in was 100 yds and I need at least 500yds continuous wire to run the saw. I could make some simple modifications to make it need less wire, but I didn't want to. I eventually decided to just put the actual diamond wire on it half way through my second video.


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## jwmelvin (Jan 18, 2022)

This project is amazing and I am excited to see it succeed. Thank you for sharing.


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## RJSakowski (Jan 18, 2022)

EDM wire is available in .012" diameter. My understanding is that it is only used for a single pass and then scrapped. You might check wirh some local shops about relieve them of some of their scrap.


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

RJSakowski said:


> EDM wire is available in .012" diameter. My understanding is that it is only used for a single pass and then scrapped. You might check wirh some local shops about relieve them of some of their scrap.


That's something I hadn't thought of. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## woodchucker (Jan 18, 2022)

what kinds of pulleys are you going to use that the diamond wire won't cut thru?


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> what kinds of pulleys are you going to use that the diamond wire won't cut thru?


UHMW Polyethylene. I machined a very narrow groove into them so that the wire sort of "pinches" in the groove, getting as much traction as possible. As long as there is no relative motion between the wire and the pulley contact surface, there is no problem. It's when the wire slips on the pulley that things go downhill fast. Offshore we used a medium durometer rubber liner in an aluminum pulley, and I think that's optimal, but I don't really have the luxury of time to make something like that. UHMW is the most abrasion-resistant thing I have at the time.


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## woodchucker (Jan 18, 2022)

strantor said:


> UHMW Polyethylene. I machined a very narrow groove into them so that the wire sort of "pinches" in the groove, getting as much traction as possible. As long as there is no relative motion between the wire and the pulley contact surface, there is no problem. It's when the wire slips on the pulley that things go downhill fast. Offshore we used a medium durometer rubber liner in an aluminum pulley, and I think that's optimal, but I don't really have the luxury of time to make something like that. UHMW is the most abrasion-resistant thing I have at the time.


I am thinking the UMHW will cut through. I think the rubber coated (anything) doesn't allow the diamond to cut, it just provides a soft cushion that gives, and therefore the diamond doesn't sink in, the rubber acts like little fingers grabbing the diamond wheel and following it thereby rotating.

I think the best thing you can do is try to mimick that. Even with plasti dip, it might work.

So if you find the UMHW cutting, try coating any pulley with plasti  dip (multiple coatings) and see if that helps.  I watched them cut granite with the diamond wire. pretty cool.. they used coolant, and pulled the wire through in a circular loop.


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> I am thinking the UMHW will cut through. I think the rubber coated (anything) doesn't allow the diamond to cut, it just provides a soft cushion that gives, and therefore the diamond doesn't sink in, the rubber acts like little fingers grabbing the diamond wheel and following it thereby rotating.
> 
> I think the best thing you can do is try to mimick that. Even with plasti dip, it might work.
> 
> So if you find the UMHW cutting, try coating any pulley with plasti  dip (multiple coatings) and see if that helps.  I watched them cut granite with the diamond wire. pretty cool.. they used coolant, and pulled the wire through in a circular loop.


Hey, that's a great idea. Thanks for the recommendation! 

I can at least confirm that it is not an instant failure kind of situation, as I have ran it probably a total of 5 minutes so far with the diamond wire on the UHMW, and there was no visible damage to the pulleys _yet_. So I have hope that they will work as-is, but I am expecting the cut will take a few hours and that's quite a different story than 5 minutes. If they don't work out over the long haul I'll try the plasti-dip. If that doesn't work I guess I'll need to machine a mould and do some research on castable rubber compounds.

FWIW at my previous employer we also had one of those granite quarry style wire saws that we used for testing different techniques, and it had a variety of different pulleys you could use. Some of them were just straight up slabs of UHMW cut into a pulley shape, pretty much like I did, except they had a semicurcular profile where I used a sharp V. ex:


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## woodchucker (Jan 18, 2022)

BTW I don't think plasti dip will stick to UMHW, but it's worth a try, that stuff is so slippery, I use it for glide surfaces.


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## woodchucker (Jan 18, 2022)

strantor said:


> Have you ever wished you had a nice foot-thick cube of cast iron from which you could machine, say, an entire new lathe headstock? Or a 2ft long 4"x6" slab from which to machine a new cross slide? Or enough of it in convenient shapes that you could use to build up an entire CNC machine? If you have, then you probably found, like I did, that cast iron typically comes cast in shapes that were convenient for whoever cast them and what they were trying to make, and not so much for you to and what you're trying to make. You probably found out that lifting weights are junk iron, tractor ballast weights are made of gold, and durabar is actually made of platinum. You've probably watched a few casting videos, so you know it can be done, but it seems like a P.I.T.A. and there's nothing new or spectacular about it. If you're like me, then you have a junk forklift sitting in your driveway (that the scrap yard won't take because it's beyond their ability to scrap), and every day you walk by it and it flaunts its big beautiful cast counterweight hips at you, daring you to find a way to cut through a foot thick of cast iron. Well, I think I might have found it.
> 
> This particular janky P.O.S. happens to be a diamond wire saw.
> 
> ...


do you have to reverse?  is there no way to braid the line together like they do for eye's on big steel cables, and on ships lines? where you open the wire and braid it together. I know it will be thicker, but how do they do it for the professional machines?


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## brino (Jan 18, 2022)

strantor said:


> If that doesn't work I guess I'll need to machine a mould and do some research on castable rubber compounds.



Perhaps some hockey-pucks as pulleys.
The ones I've used machine well enough to bore a bearing hole in.

Brian


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> do you have to reverse?  is there no way to braid the line together like they do for eye's on big steel cables, and on ships lines? where you open the wire and braid it together. I know it will be thicker, but how do they do it for the professional machines?


I exhausted myself trying to think of ways to do a continuous loop prior to going down this route and now (for this revision at least) I'm committed to the reversing. In the semiconductor industry where the wire I'm using comes from, I believe even they do it by reversing.

Subsea and mining operations both use the same kind of wire but they differ in how they join the ends to make a continuous loop. They both use wire that is a steel wire rope (steel "cable") that has diamond-sintered beads threaded onto it, and those beads are separated by springs and then crimped onto the cable. Usually rubber is extruded over all of this, but not always.








In the case of mining, the wire ships from the manufacturer on a spool with two free ends just like any other wire/cable. The operators onsite cut the wire to the length they need and then crimp the two ends together with a swivel joint that is something like universal/cardan joint.





Because the crimp connector is smaller diameter than the diamond beads, it doesn't get hung up in the cut.

For subsea operations, the wire is manufactured custom order for the specific loop size you require for your tool, as an actual continuous loop. They do in the way I think you were referring to, similar in concept to how a flemish eye works:



They will separate the 7 main strands of the inner cable and cut each one some distance (ex: a foot) longer than the last, on both ends, thread the beads over it and compress the springs, then weave the two ends of the cable together with one another such that their 7 staggered cuts butt up to each other in 7 different spots. Then they release the springs and space the beads out evenly around the loop, and crimp the beads. This loop is extremely difficult break.

Joining the ends of 0.3mm wire without creating any kind of knot is (unless there is something I've never heard of) effectively impossible. I worked with some resistance welders in the wire & cable industry that could join the ends of copper wire together but this was much larger diameter wire and the joint was not perfect. It had to be filed down by a person after. I can't imagine doing it to 0.3mm wire.

The most workable idea I had was to make a continuous loop of single strand wire by wrapping it around itself at a set interval as you make the loop, and go over it several times (7 times maybe? Like a wire rope?) like I've done here with twine:



The ends of the wire could be tucked into the interior of the "cable" and secured there somehow (solder?). But I think this would not work for the following reasons:

Most of the diamond coated surface is unused, buried inside the bundle/cable.
Those diamond coated surfaces on the interior will be abrading each other as the cable flexes. It would probably chew itself up from the inside out.
The ends of the wire would probably find their way out of the interior of the bundle and get hung up in the cut.
The "cable"/bundle would have no inherent internal support. No incentive to remain round like a cable. As it gets into a slot cut by itself, it will probably want to flatten out like a tapeworm.

If you have other ideas I'm glad to hear them, but I probably won't try them until later, as I've already gone past the point of no return in this specific direction.


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

brino said:


> Perhaps some hockey-pucks as pulleys.
> The ones I've used machine well enough to bore a bearing hole in.
> 
> Brian


Some material choices just don't naturally occur to a Texan. I'm not sure if I've ever actually seen a real life hockey puck. I should probably order one on Amazon if for no other reason than to be able to say I've held one. And then put it in the lathe and see what all the fuss is about. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## strantor (Jan 18, 2022)

brino said:


> Perhaps some hockey-pucks as pulleys.
> The ones I've used machine well enough to bore a bearing hole in.
> 
> Brian


I did a bit of poking around, learned that hockey pucks are 3"x1", made of hard vulcanized rubber, and cost just over a dollar each on Amazon. I compared to the UHMW that I used (2.75" OD, with outer 1/4 being garbage, so effectively 2.25" OD) and what it would cost to replace it with ebay stock, and found that I paid about triple for my pulleys, _*and*_ had to cut them into hockey puck sized bites anyway.

So I ordered 18 hockey pucks off Amazon. For the eventual replacement set (sooner or later, probably sooner) I'll use the pucks. I will have a couple extras for my kids to pass around for show & tell. 

I just asked my 10 y/o "do you know what hockey is?" And she answered "yeah it's this game where you whack this thingy with a pole"


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## Cadillac (Jan 18, 2022)

I think resistance welding would be a good candidate for the job.


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## brino (Jan 19, 2022)

strantor said:


> So I ordered 18 hockey pucks off Amazon. For the eventual replacement set (sooner or later, probably sooner) I'll use the pucks. I will have a couple extras for my kids to pass around for show & tell.



They are an easily available source of hard rubber for various projects.

I have used them as machine feet, debris shields on axles where they enter axle tubes, and even for a home-brew lovejoy coupling in my band-saw project..... that I still need to finish.......

Brian


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## woodchucker (Jan 19, 2022)

@brino  Brian do you freeze them to machine them, or just straight away machined them?


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## francist (Jan 19, 2022)

Pucks make very nice non-marring bench blocks as well. Cut a v-groove in with a sharp end mill, works beautifully.


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## brino (Jan 19, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Brian do you freeze them to machine them, or just straight away machined them?



It's been years since I put one on ice...... and that was playing hockey with buddies back in high-school. 

The ones I have used (both black and blue) were easily machined and not too soft/gummy.

Brian


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## WobblyHand (Jan 19, 2022)

Never bothered to freeze them.  Just chuck them up and go.  They are a bit messy, and a little dirty due to the carbon black, but vacuum up fine.


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## Eddyde (Jan 19, 2022)

I found this!








						Diamond Wire Loop-D0.35 - Ensoll Diamond Wire Loop ,Wire Cutting Machine
					

Description: Endless Diamond wire loop Model D0.35 is the thinnest endless cutting wire in the world.It’s an tech breakingthough,this kind of wire have a diameter of 0.35 mm,the cutting kerf is very small. If you need to cut very small and expensive material, D0.35 is the best choice.  You can...



					www.toolsresearch.com


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## strantor (Jan 19, 2022)

Eddyde said:


> I found this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, so it's not impossible to join the ends of steel wire that small... I wonder if they'll tell me how they do it? 

I'm curious if they take already-made diamond wire like I have, and splice it together, or if they make loops if steel wire and then sinter diamonds onto it. My money is on the latter.


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## Eddyde (Jan 19, 2022)

I don't see why it couldn't be welded or brazed like a bandsaw blade, though I know it would be much harder to do.
Or, I suppose a heavier gauge wire could be welded into a ring, drawn down to size and then coated.
How ever they do it, It's probably a proprietary, secret process.


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## WobblyHand (Jan 20, 2022)

strantor said:


> Ok, so it's not impossible to join the ends of steel wire that small... I wonder if they'll tell me how they do it?
> 
> I'm curious if they take already-made diamond wire like I have, and splice it together, or if they make loops if steel wire and then sinter diamonds onto it. My money is on the latter.


The worst that could happen is they won't tell you.  Maybe they would give you a clue.  Only one way to find out!


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## strantor (Jan 20, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> The worst that could happen is they won't tell you.  Maybe they would give you a clue.  Only one way to find out!


I have submitted the question to them, among others. No reply yet but if I hear back I forward the response.


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## strantor (Jan 21, 2022)

I got a reply!




So, when I fill in the blanks between the answers, the process that I see is like this:

Start out with a "washer", or something resembling a plain wedding band.
Anneal
Draw it radially over successive mandrels to enlarge/stretch.
Anneal
Use some sort of hydraulic opening device to stretch it out radially, until it starts to look like a square profile wire.
Anneal
Fit a split die around it, start drawing linearly into more of a round wire, and getting longer.
Anneal
Fit progressively smaller dies, drawing linearly longer and thinner, and annealing, until you hit the target loop diameter and wire diameter.
You would need to hit both numbers at the same time, which means the weight of the washer you start out with would have to be very accurately calculated and weighed.

Do the diamond coating process, and all the many steps I'm sure it entails.
Is that what you see in your head too, after reading the answers? If so, the price seems low, even for China.

So, either she told an untruth out of ignorance or Chinese honesty, and they actually do have a way of joining the wire, or the above process (or close/similar) is actually the case. Either way, I still have no ideas to make me think DIY manufacture of endless loops is feasible.


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## jmkasunich (Jan 21, 2022)

strantor said:


> I got a reply!
> View attachment 393156
> 
> 
> ...



Looking at the photos it's hard to be sure but it seems like the cable might be stranded.  They may have a process that lets them start with a single solid wire 7 times longer than the final loop and wind/twist it into a 7 strand cable.  Seems like the two ends of the strand would have a tendency to pop out, but maybe the diamond plating process also bonds the strands together?

The process described just seems much too complex.  Especially since they offer a wide variety of loop lengths.


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## strantor (Jan 31, 2022)

Ok I did some preliminary testing of the saw on thick cast iron. I sliced long-ways through a transmission housing flange. It works, but it's abrasive cutting and this is like planing boards with a belt sander at 2000 grit. Finish is great, dimensions are great, but the process takes soooo long. Here's 70 minutes of cutting:







I decided that was enough data for a proof of concept. Breathing unhealthy amounts of cast iron dust helped me reach that conclusion. I hack-sawed the corner off to see the finish:







Not exactly a surface grinder finish, but the best finish I've seen come off a machine with "saw" in its name. Around the edges the finish is worse because of the wire vibration exiting the cut. I have a feeling in the middle of the cut it's smooth as glass. Will confirm some day soon.

Bonus material, sawing a Dollar Tree beer stein.








The mug exploded shortly after these pictures were taken. It was pretty spectacular. I think it was like what happens with a Prince Rupert's Drop. It didn't fall out and break, it exploded right there in the vise.


And a 4" steel pipe




I recorded video of all this, will post here when I get it edited and uploaded.


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## WobblyHand (Jan 31, 2022)

This is so awesomely cool!  Love it!


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## 7milesup (Jan 31, 2022)

This is so cool!  I love your "jankiness" in order to test out a concept.  

This thread has actually given me a potential new approach for a project at work that has been doggin' me for a while.


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## rwm (Jan 31, 2022)

This is awesome. Please continue. Cut up a forklift. How about a pic of the forklift!


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## strantor (Jan 31, 2022)

rwm said:


> This is awesome. Please continue. Cut up a forklift. How about a pic of the forklift!


It's too dark for good pictures today but you can see old pictures here. It hasn't changed, hasn't moved an inch since those 2018 pictures.


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## woodchucker (Jan 31, 2022)

strantor said:


> It's too dark for good pictures today but you can see old pictures here. It hasn't changed, hasn't moved an inch since those 2018 pictures.


thats not a good link


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## jwmelvin (Jan 31, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> thats not a good link



Works on Tapatalk. Maybe that’s one of the issues that pops up cookie issues?

Oh Tapatalk stripped out the URL:









						Need forklift advice
					

In the late '60s and early '70s Ford made an industrial forklift from a farm tractor. It was a Ford 5000 with the seat mounted backwards and the steering assembly moved to the back of the tractor, making it the front. They took a fairly large forklift mast and mounted it where the 3 point lift...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## strantor (Jan 31, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> thats not a good link


Weird. I downloaded the pictures from that thread and reattached them here.


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## woodchucker (Jan 31, 2022)

it doesn't look that big. I thought you had a monster like Brian Bloc... 



that's a big one. Can't you plasma cut your way through that?
Or OA cutting torch?


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## strantor (Feb 1, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> it doesn't look that big. I thought you had a monster like Brian Bloc...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I had one of those I'd have to build the saw outside my shop because it wouldn't fit out the door! It doesn't need to be an Amazon to have thick hips. I will be cutting through places that are a foot thick.

No, I cant cut it with acetylene. I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not it theoretically _could_ be cut with OA so notice I said that _*I*_ can't. And I definitely cant plasma cut it.


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## strantor (Feb 1, 2022)

7milesup said:


> This is so cool!  I love your "jankiness" in order to test out a concept.
> 
> This thread has actually given me a potential new approach for a project at work that has been doggin' me for a while.


What's the project? (If you can discuss it)


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## strantor (Feb 1, 2022)

This morning brings cast iron boogers from deep in the sinuses and I found black fuzz balls clinging to magnets all the way on the other end of the shop. I'm sure this was an awesome experience for all the electronics in the shop. I do not recommend doing this in an enclosed space. Might be ok if you have some coolant flowing to trap the dust. I might do that.


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## strantor (Feb 1, 2022)

Here's a video I just uploaded. This footage was shot prior to the pictures I posted yesterday. I am working on the video of the cutting, but this is what I have for now:


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## woodchucker (Feb 1, 2022)

so watching your video, its clear to me that you didn't build it heavy enough to dampen things. The more weight you get in, and the more rigidity the less CHANCE of vibration, even with an out of true pulley.  One feeds the other.

Can you clamp some heavy angles onto the unistrut and  add any more damping along the bar.

I also wonder how rigid those wheels are also. if they are flexing under load.  

How many ball bearings are in each sheave ? 2 I hope


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## woodchucker (Feb 1, 2022)

I just did a test of some speed skating wheels, the bigger ones. My son skated inline and on ice. I have a ton of old wheels.
They machine well, and because of the weight they hold and forces they are pretty well built.
pics soon Gotta find my cable to transfer them.  I could send you a box of them, you would just pay shipping.
They require 2 bearings a piece, and a spacer.


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## rwm (Feb 1, 2022)

Strantor- I love your commentary. You will be a big hit on YT!


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## strantor (Feb 1, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> so watching your video, its clear to me that you didn't build it heavy enough to dampen things. The more weight you get in, and the more rigidity the less CHANCE of vibration, even with an out of true pulley.  One feeds the other.
> 
> Can you clamp some heavy angles onto the unistrut and  add any more damping along the bar.


I agree with your assessment, and I had decided to just live with it, for this revision of the saw anyway. I've ran it probably a total of 6 hours and the plastic pulleys haven't been chewed up by the wacky waving wire, so I find it easy to pretend nothing is wrong. But clamping some angle to it won't be hard; I'll give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion.


woodchucker said:


> I also wonder how rigid those wheels are also. if they are flexing under load.


They're UHMW Polyethylene. Basically kitchen cutting board material. They are not that rigid.  It's possible they are flexing under load.


woodchucker said:


> How many ball bearings are in each sheave ? 2 I hope


 Just one. Two would be better, but... I only put one.


woodchucker said:


> I just did a test of some speed skating wheels, the bigger ones. My son skated inline and on ice. I have a ton of old wheels.
> They machine well, and because of the weight they hold and forces they are pretty well built.
> pics soon Gotta find my cable to transfer them.  I could send you a box of them, you would just pay shipping.
> They require 2 bearings a piece, and a spacer.
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to try that and post the results, and thank you for extending the offer. I gladly accept! I will PM you my address and we can discuss how I pay for shipping. Do you have at least one with bearings still in? I just want to know what the bearing p/n is so that I can get some on order.


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## rwm (Feb 1, 2022)

I have machined those Razor wheels and used them in projects. They are nice. I also recommend.


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## strantor (Feb 1, 2022)

rwm said:


> Strantor- I love your commentary. You will be a big hit on YT!


Thanks! I almost had something real going on back in '08/'09, my channel was about knife making and I had over a million views (all videos combined) and a few thousand subscribers (now I'm down to just a few hundred, not sure why anyone would have unsubscribed?). Then I got a job offshore/overseas, and didn't have time to make new videos so my channel "dried up" and I never rehydrated it. If I had kept it up I might be an internet celebrity right now .

I posted another video or two since then but they didn't get any attention. Now I'm trying to pick it up and dust it off, get active on YouTube again. I'm hoping this wire saw will draw in some viewers. So if you're enjoying this, feel free to "like, subscribe and share" as they say...

The channel won't be about knifemaking anymore. It will be about whatever crazy thing I feel like making. Machining & fabrication videos, machine builds like this, electronic circuit builds, tractor-related builds, firearms & reloading -related builds, automation, etc. I came up with a list of >250 projects I'd like to do and upload (I won't finish before I die) and here are the first few in the list:

Build a miniature CNC Swiss lathe for making solid copper bullets (That's what the fork lift cast iron is for)
Cut my two seater UTV in half and extend it, adding a back seat.
Build a manual CVT for the UTV
Build a PTO Dynamometer for the tractor & Hack the tractor's ECU for more HP
Build a pantograph plasma cutter attachment for the CNC mill
Build an Amphibious aluminum jet boat
Build an automated range brass sorter using machine vision and AI.


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## strantor (Feb 3, 2022)

New video. 
Keep in mind the videos are from days ago and do not reflect current events.
Editing these videos takes forever.


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## strantor (Feb 5, 2022)

This will be mostly a recap for anyone who has been following this thread, but I uploaded a new video. This is for the benefit of folks on YouTube who run across the videos without the benefit of the context that this thread provides. But, there is still some new information, like the history and cost of the wire, a full walk-around of the saw in action, etc.


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## Larry$ (Feb 6, 2022)

Thank you, this is a great project. As the wire is used, the diamond grit would become less "sharp." Seems like by the time it was sold on eBay it would have much less cutting speed than the original. But price matters. When you go into full mass production of these machines you can sell them with new, "fast" wire. 
I'm curious about what they end up with in the cast iron forklift weights. 
Buying "new" CI is expensive in small quantities. Would this process enable selling salvaged CI at a profit?


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## strantor (Feb 6, 2022)

Larry$ said:


> Thank you, this is a great project.


Thanks!


Larry$ said:


> As the wire is used, the diamond grit would become less "sharp." Seems like by the time it was sold on eBay it would have much less cutting speed than the original. But price matters.



The wire on ebay is not used. It is brand new, just old; arrived in original factory packaging with vacuum seal unbroken. According to the manufacturer it has a shelf life of 1 year and this wire 8 years expired. It also said on the package to use within a week of opening. I think this wire is just fine despite being "expired." I don't have any brand new wire to compare to, but it cuts just fine for my purposes. I postulate that given the delicate nature of the use the wire is intended for, the expiration date is probably to do with purity and QA. The wire MFG is probably just covering their ass, not wanting to invite lawsuits over stray diamond bits or oxidation contaminating a batch of RAM chips due to the end user using some dusty wire they left in an uncontrolled atmosphere for years.



Larry$ said:


> When you go into full mass production of these machines you can sell them with new, "fast" wire.
> 
> I'm curious about what they end up with in the cast iron forklift weights.
> Buying "new" CI is expensive in small quantities. Would this process enable selling salvaged CI at a profit?



I don't think there is much if any profit to be made in selling wire saws or wire sawn scrap. I worked for a company that made wire saws and it went under due to lack of interest and because the owner was a conman, but mostly lack of interest. Diamond wire is almost always _*not*_ the best way to cut things. It's slow, requires a lot of supporting hardware/processes, and ridiculously expensive. It's one of those things where when you really need it, you _*really need*_ it; nothing else will do(*). But if you don't really need it, find another way. The only reason it's not 100% stupid for me to do this is because of the access to wire at 2% of MSRP. Even if I got wire and counterweights delivered regularly for free, I think I would struggle to put food on the table selling butchered counterweights because of the time it takes. Maybe I underestimate the value of large pieces of cast iron? I've never seen anything for sale like the chunks I'm after, so I don't know their actual value. But after having cut (part of) the transmission housing, I'm estimating I'll need more than a day to complete a single on cut the forklift.

(*) EDIT: The analogy I used yesterday to explain this to my friend is imagine you have a big tree that needs to come down; a sequoia or something, 10ft thick. You need a really big Chainsaw. But if the tree is made of cast iron, granite, or titanium, a Chainsaw won't be much use. There's only one thing I can think of that would work: diamond wire. But if the tree is just made of wood, you'll be so much happier if you just use a really big chainsaw.


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## Larry$ (Feb 6, 2022)

strantor said:


> The wire on ebay is not used. It is brand new


I had missed that. I must say it seems strange that something like that would go to hell in a year! But lawyers do cause a lot of waste!
Just funning you on selling the machines. As long as the saw can operate unattended , being slow isn't a big deal if you aren't trying to make mots of money. Kind of like raising a chicken to make an egg.


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## rwm (Feb 6, 2022)

So assuming you can cut the cast iron into blocks or slabs, how will you create more complex geometry like you need to build a lathe? You could mill the blocks but that would require an awful lot of material removal. I am thinking that this is why most machine tools are cast. Not trying to sound critical just curious about the plan.


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## jwmelvin (Feb 6, 2022)

rwm said:


> You could mill the blocks but that would require an awful lot of material removal. I am thinking that this is why most machine tools are cast.



Should work okay to bolt together slabs, right? Brazing could reinforce.


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## strantor (Feb 6, 2022)

rwm said:


> So assuming you can cut the cast iron into blocks or slabs, how will you create more complex geometry like you need to build a lathe? You could mill the blocks but that would require an awful lot of material removal. I am thinking that this is why most machine tools are cast. Not trying to sound critical just curious about the plan.


 I agree that's why most machine tools are cast; That, and for mass production. Making patterns/molds is a big up-front expense that only pays for itself after X amount of units have been produced. I'm only making one.

If I have to remove a lot of material I'm ok with that (easy to say right now). I think maybe we have different mental images though; maybe you're picturing a full size machine? What I want to build is like... take a Taig/Sherline CNC lathe, scale it up by a factor of 1.5 or 2, delete every aesthetic feature, fill every void that doesn't serve a purpose, and replace every bit of aluminum with cast iron. It will be made of the simplest geometries possible. Where Taig/Sherline uses a hollow aluminum extrusion elevated on cute little feet, I'll use a solid rectangle of cast iron. I will cut the parts out of the cast iron chunks using the wire saw or any other suitable saw as close to final dimension as I dare cut, so not as much needs to be removed. This will be a very heavy machine for its size. It's to be a production machine, just on a smaller than usual scale.

When I'm done it will probably be something that wouldn't make much sense to cast copies of. Too much "wasted" material.


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## Joe in Oz (Feb 9, 2022)

Actually, you could make very intricate parts - like you can with wire EDM. Nothing stopping you from moving the 'workpiece' in two directions.


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## strantor (Feb 9, 2022)

Joe in Oz said:


> Actually, you could make very intricate parts - like you can with wire EDM. Nothing stopping you from moving the 'workpiece' in two directions.



In sheet material, yes, as long as the distance between the cutting edge rollers is well controlled and you're doing it free-hand. If you're talking about CNC then some software corrections will need to be made to account for the wire bending and the resultant cut path lagging a bit behind actual position.

In the case of cutting thick materials, I think there will be problems. The wire deflection *within the material* (it follows an organic spline or maybe catenary curve, not sure what the right word is) is something that I think would be very hard to compensate for. You can see what I mean in this screen grab below from the video I'm editing right now. I shot this clip to illustrate this very caveat.




If you imagine this for example trying to cut a round slug out of a 6" thick plate, what you would get is an hourglass shape that is unable to be removed from the parent material. This wire curve effect could be minimized by:

bringing the rollers as close as possible to the work
slowing down the feed rate
increasing tension
doing a pause/dwell at the end of each movement before changing directions, giving the wire a chance to "catch up" to itself and be closer to perpendicular.
But...

you can only get the rollers so close
the process is already painfully slow
you can only put so much tension on a 0.3mm wire
the dwell is a thing of logarithmic return on investment of time. I think you would have to dwell to infinity to reach a perfectly vertical position before changing direction. We don't need perfectly vertical, just within a tolerance dictated by the diameter of the wire (more accurately, the width of the kerf), to ensure that the cut piece can be removed from the parent material. But even for that, my intuition indicates (ex: cutting a 6" square out of 6" plate) that the dwell time required would be several times longer than the time to cut each side. It would probably take days to cut.
IMO this wire cutting method is best suited to making planar cuts all the way through thick materials.

All that said, there's this guy:






He's got a few things working in his favor:

he's using a much thicker wire, so the tolerance to be able to remove the cut piece is much more forgiving
he's making a sculpture, so the dimensions are not critical and the hourglass effect is not much concern.
he's using wire designed for stone, on stone. So his cut time is much more reasonable than for cutting steel/cast iron with wire designed for silicon.


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## strantor (Feb 12, 2022)

Spoiler: Yeah, but will it cut a forklift?


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## strantor (Feb 17, 2022)

First video in which I invested an identifiable amount of effort in editing.


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## woodchucker (Feb 17, 2022)

First, you have a very cute daughter, and the fact that she gave up a Barbie for you is amazing.
Second, have you tried any coolant. It will speed up the cuts (lube) and cool the metal and cutting wire. I'll assume that you are creating hard spots with the heat. Especially if you are igniting the dust.  That may help remove the swarf so you are not re-cutting it, and speed it up.   It's worth a try. I realize that you may wind up with a mess on your spool, and am wondering how you clean that up.. maybe a high pressure sheet of water on the exitting wire to keep it clean, which means both sides need it, just have to turn on which ever side is in use (electronically)


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## strantor (Feb 17, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> First, you have a very cute daughter, and the fact that she gave up a Barbie for you is amazing.


Thank you! That's my middle child and she's a daddy's girl. Now that I think about it, she probably would have given me one even if she liked it. So I think I owe her a replacement of her choosing.


woodchucker said:


> Second, have you tried any coolant. It will speed up the cuts (lube) and cool the metal and cutting wire. I'll assume that you are creating hard spots with the heat. Especially if you are igniting the dust.  That may help remove the swarf so you are not re-cutting it, and speed it up.   It's worth a try. I realize that you may wind up with a mess on your spool, and am wondering how you clean that up.. maybe a high pressure sheet of water on the exitting wire to keep it clean, which means both sides need it, just have to turn on which ever side is in use (electronically)


Thanks for the suggestion. No, I have not tried coolant; I did not want to deal with the mess in my shop. But I will be forced to if I'm to continue. Editing these videos takes so long that by the time you see it I'm already way further along. I've already started on the forklift and in something that thick it's as you predict: the kerf gets so packed with ultra-fine metal powder that going back through it (like you can see in the end of the transmission cutting clip) is like cutting virgin metal again. Long story but the forklift presents unforeseen challenges. I think there is no way around using coolant to keep that kerf flushed out. It's going to make a big rusty mess in my driveway but I'm too hard headed to give up on account of that.


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## brino (Feb 17, 2022)

Great video!
Thanks for sharing it here.

I gotta wonder if an accidental thermite reaction is a risk.
Initially I was wondering about it in the shop (maybe on the cart), but even in the shop-vac.....

Play Safe!
Brian


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## strantor (Feb 17, 2022)

brino said:


> Great video!
> Thanks for sharing it here.
> 
> I gotta wonder if an accidental thermite reaction is a risk.
> ...


A friend of mine who knows more about this than I do, informed that there is some risk. So from now on I will do this outside and with water for coolant.


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## rwm (Feb 18, 2022)

Make sure you collect the dust...for an intentional thermite reaction....


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## strantor (Feb 18, 2022)

rwm said:


> Make sure you collect the dust...for an intentional thermite reaction....


Funny you should mention... while cutting a forged steel block in a video that hasn't been uploaded yet, I had planned on collecting the dust from the shopvac outside to see if I could set it off. There was no dust in the shopvac. This dust, whatever particle size it is, is small enough to go straight through the filter.


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## Boswell (Feb 18, 2022)

strantor said:


> This dust, whatever particle size it is, is small enough to go straight through the filter.


I hope then that you are wearing an appropriate filter to avoid the stuff in your lungs


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## woodchucker (Feb 18, 2022)

To all of us:

If you ever go for an MRI, you must tell your doctor you work with metal. They will prescribe an ORBITAL xray. It's to make sure your eyes do not have metal (small frags) in them. The mri can rip your eye apart as it pulls the metal. An MRI is magnets on steroids'. It requires helium cooling.  I thought I would do a Public Service Announcement for those not aware.


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## WobblyHand (Feb 18, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> To all of us:
> 
> If you ever go for an MRI, you must tell your doctor you work with metal. They will prescribe an ORBITAL xray. It's to make sure your eyes do not have metal (small frags) in them. The mri can rip your eye apart as it pulls the metal. An MRI is magnets on steroids'. It requires helium cooling.  I thought I would do a Public Service Announcement for those not aware.


Yes, take this seriously!  You can permanently damage your eyes.  I had to have an MRI (quite a while ago) and told them I do metal work.  They sent me to xray for my eyes first.


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## strantor (Feb 18, 2022)

Boswell said:


> I hope then that you are wearing an appropriate filter to avoid the stuff in your lungs


I was not. Not for that video or the next few. I may have taken a year or two off my life, who knows. But it's not something I plan to repeat. From now on this happens outside, with flood coolant to control dust. Not only is inhalation a hazard but creating an explosive atmosphere.


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## woodchucker (Mar 4, 2022)

so what's happening with the wire cutter? Where are you at?


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## strantor (Mar 10, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> so what's happening with the wire cutter? Where are you at?


Thanks for checking in! I'm in South Carolina, working 15 hour days, 7 days a week. Prior to that I was 100% engaged in getting my daughter's truck ready for her 16th birthday. I'll be here in SC for the next 2 weeks at least, maybe a month, then back to TX and wrap up the truck, get the birthday festivities behind me, and pick up where I left off on the saw. Assuming I remember how it works.


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## rwm (Apr 11, 2022)

OK, your 2 weeks are up! We expect to see a forklift in pieces!


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## strantor (Apr 11, 2022)

rwm said:


> OK, your 2 weeks are up! We expect to see a forklift in pieces!



I have to request another extension 

The day after getting back from SC I had a meeting with one of my side-gig clients and they want me to design the controls for a wire dipping line cobbled together from junk yard winders and random mis-matched machines. This is being completed over the course many more nights and weekends to continue. Once I'm done turning that into a moneymaker and after my kid's truck is done, I'll be back at it.


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