# Is This Worth Restoring?



## Izzy

So I recently acquired a 1972 Bridgeport series 2 for a hell of a deal and I've been learning as much as I can about machining, tooling and setups just as much as I can about machining in general. I'm currently working on getting the machine converted to 230vac operation as I would like to see it running before I go ahead and start with any sort of restoration. I figured you guys would know best so I got some close ups of all my ways and I'm wondering what you guys think, is it worth salvaging!?


----------



## Billh50

If you were closer to me in CT I'd say no and have you just ship it to me for scrap. It has to be better than my drill press with a cross slide for milling. Depending on what you plan on using it for. I would get it hooked up and running first to see if it could hold close enough tolerances for the type of work I do. Then go from there.


----------



## Izzy

I really would like to fix it up, this is really all I can afford and I don't mind putting some hard work into it if it means having a like new machine I've got the time that's not an issue. I do plan on getting it running first but I guess I'm wondering what would be involved in getting it back to atleast somewhat good condition the rust is alot worse than I thought but for only 300cad I can't complain...


----------



## Billh50

As I said. It may hold close enough tolerances for what you will be doing. That's why I would clean it up and hook it up to see how well it does first. The go from there as to what the problems are with it. If any.


----------



## Izzy

What's the best way to go abouts removing the rust from the ways? And as far checking for tolerances I just put I dial indicator in a drill chuck and check the travel full stop to full stop?


----------



## Uglydog

She isn't a Jig Bore. But, then she never was.
As Billh50 wrote: tolerances.
What are you trying to do with her?
How tight/sloppy is the spindle?

Daryl
MN


----------



## Whyemier

Do as BillH says, you may find it does everything you want/need and then just a coat of paint would make it nice for you, IMHO.


----------



## Ulma Doctor

Izzy said:


> What's the best way to go abouts removing the rust from the ways? And as far checking for tolerances I just put I dial indicator in a drill chuck and check the travel full stop to full stop?



to remove the rust, sometimes steel wool can be your best friend
you can lightly stone the table and ways with a stone soaked in mineral spirits, diesel fuel or kerosene to remove high spots
be careful to wipe up remnants of the process and re-oil before use
you can mount an indicator on the column and sweep the table in both directions
you can mount an indicator on the table to sweep the knee travel
you can mount an indicator in the spindle and sweep for tram of the head


----------



## 4GSR

Those ways are chrome plated.  Do not use any acid or electrolysis to remove the rust.  If you do, you may remove the rest of the plating.  Get you a oil stone and some mineral spirits and hone the ways a little to remove any dings, ridges from the surfaces. To get the stone under the dovetails, take and grind a bevel on the back side of the oilstone on your grinder or use a side grinder. The bevel on the oilstone needs to be a shallower angle than the dovetail on the slide. Use the rest of the mineral spirits to clean the components with.  Ken


----------



## Andre

Ken is correct. Those chrome ways are very nice, but be careful cleaning them. I can't imagine the chrome is very thick, even though they had to be plated thick enough to grind. 

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk


----------



## westsailpat

Well of course it's worth restoring , Is it a J head (step pulleys) , that's my favorite . Varidrive   is a PITA in MHO . I have had both . From looking at the pics. the ways , I think are looking good . The brown stuff might be just dried oil . I say just clean it up and make chips . Just sayin' .


----------



## 4GSR

Yeah, the chrome is only a couple thousandths thick.  You can see where the chrome is starting to peel/wear off.  I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.  Use it like it is until something better comes along.  Some day in the future, if you wanted to replate the slides, I know some people in Red Deer that do plating.  It's not cheap, but can be done. Ken


----------



## Izzy

Uglydog said:


> She isn't a Jig Bore. But, then she never was.
> As Billh50 wrote: tolerances.
> What are you trying to do with her?
> How tight/sloppy is the spindle?
> 
> Daryl
> MN


 its just going to be a general purpose machine for me it's my first machine so plan on making some small tooling for myself like 1-2-3 blocks, tap blocks and little things like that I also do alot of automotive type stuff, repairs custom made parts etc... Might be resurfacing the odd cylinder head here and there. How would I go abouts measuring for slop in the spindle? It feels pretty tight when I turn it if that's what you mean?



westsailpat said:


> Well of course it's worth restoring , Is it a J head (step pulleys) , that's my favorite . Varidrive   is a PITA in MHO . I have had both . From looking at the pics. the ways , I think are looking good . The brown stuff might be just dried oil . I say just clean it up and make chips . Just sayin' .


 thanks ideally I would really like to just clean it up and make chips the last thing I wana do is go into a full rebuild even though I know it's going to need one soon but if I can get some use out of it before hand that'd be great! Its a 4j head they don't make these anymore unfortunately. one more reason I wana keep it, I like old vintage type stuff that doesn't exist anymore I think thats cool lol
So basically the general consensus is I should just clean it up and make chips and not worry too much about the ways? The spots that are missing the chrome seem like they are gouged so I was worried about that and the z axis takes quite a bit of stamina to bring from full stop to full stop is that just cuz of its weight or could that be another issue?


----------



## JimDawson

Izzy said:


> the z axis takes quite a bit of stamina to bring from full stop to full stop is that just cuz of its weight or could that be another issue?



I assume we are talking about the knee.  It's heavy!  Get the ways cleaned up and everything oiled up and grease the screw and it should be easier.


----------



## Eddyde

The ways look fine just need a good cleaning. Please post pictures of the rest of the machine.


----------



## Izzy

I don't have very many pictures of it but here are the ones that I have!  these are all before I got it home it was quite the task moving it!￼


----------



## Izzy

Its got an nmtb-40 with an Ericson quick change attachment and came with 17 tg100 collets, a Jacobs drill chuck, and 3 sandvik face cutters and a few packs of inserts and a few 2 and 3 flute end mills.


----------



## Eddyde

That's a lot of mill, Nice Score!


----------



## Izzy

Thank you! I think I was very lucky to get it I honestly never thought I'd be able to afford something like this but I know what these machines can do and I couldn't pass up such a cheap machine! I dated it to 1972 the series number is 872. I thought it was an 81 at first because of the date on the wiring diagrams but then I ran the serial number and found out it was even older lol


----------



## Whyemier

Nice! 

Figured I should throw that in there now that I'm jealous.  I'll just have to keep limping along on my old RF30.  Dang! 
Ah well.  Prob'ly couldn't have afforded it and trailered it home anyway. Dang!


----------



## Billh50

So your telling me you don't want to scrap it ?


Just kidding.....great score !!   Wouldn't be giving up machining if I could find something I could afford.  Good luck with it.


----------



## Uglydog

As wetsailpat has identified don't be displeased with those belts.
If the spindle turns smoothly/freely and you don't notice any lateral play when you grab the collet end of the spindle and pull it back and forth (motor off and unplugged) then clean her up and make chips if you find that you are unable to get the tolerances you want then you may have to do something more. Then you will have to identify the problem.

Run her at slow speeds initially, until she gets warm. Listen carefully does she purr, grind or whine?

Nice Score!!

Daryl
MN


----------



## Izzy

I think it may have been part of my sneaky bidding scheme but I'm honestly surprised nobody bid more than 300cad for it! I later paid the person who stored it anothet 200cad for the tooling so it came out to a total of 500cad. (just shy of 380usd) I'm glad to hear that it should be fine as long as it runs! I just wana make chips! Planning on getting a stone to hone the ways today and was looking at this one http://m.homedepot.com/p/DMT-8-in-D...iamond-Precision-Flat-Sharpener-D8F/203381318 is that about what I'm looking for?


----------



## Billh50

It was a great deal. I lost out on 2 deals like that and can't afford one now unless it is with small payments. But I don't think that will happen.


----------



## JimDawson

Izzy said:


> Planning on getting a stone to hone the ways today



Before you start honing, just get things cleaned up.  Those ways don't look that bad.  My favorite is fine Scotch-Brite pads and kerosene or diesel.  Then make sure the lube system is working, I would flush it out with type A ATF, if you you can't find type A, then Dexron would work.  Then flush that out with whatever you want to use for way oil, I use 90W mineral gear oil.


----------



## Izzy

Any specific way of checking the lube system? There's a hand prime that you're suppose to pull but it's not moving bad sign?


----------



## Billh50

Jim is right....just clean her up first with a scotchbrite pad and some Kero or diesel. When cleaning if you notice some burrs sticking up you can stone those but I wouldn't go overly enthusiastic with the stone. Also get that lube system working and flushed out. You might have to take the pump apart to get it unstuck. Just be careful and watch out for springs and balls that may fall out when you take things apart. I usually take stuff apart either in a box or over a clean rag. That way stuff doesn't go rolling under that bench or fly across the room to some obscure place.


----------



## JimDawson

Izzy said:


> Any specific way of checking the lube system? There's a hand prime that you're suppose to pull but it's not moving bad sign?



It depends on the type of pump.  If you have an electric pump, it could be just in the up position and you wouldn't be able to pull the plunger up any farther.  Can you post a picture of the pump?

As far as checking out the lube system, get the pump working and then make sure you have oil coming out of all of the fittings.  Everything that moves has an oil fitting(s) on it.


----------



## Izzy

Its a Boehm brand pump I believe or something along those lines I don't have any pics of that but I know the plunger is at the bottom as it's almost flush with the rest of the pump and just has a little handle sticking out above it I'll get it cleaned up and post some more pics!


----------



## Dabbler

wonderful score!  You need to lube the length of ways with way oil after cleaning even if your pump is working.   I use a cardboard wiper and squirt gun until the ways have a light but detectable coating.  then and only then do I use the one-shot lube and move it around...  The pump may have seized due to non-use.  I have seen this before on old and slightly abused machines.  It might be quite simple to disassemble and get working again.  If not, no big loss, new pumps can had (but for about half of what you have invested already!)


----------



## Izzy

Thanks! I'll have to take it apart next time I'm at the machine. I see you're in Canada where do you go to get those kinds of lubricants?


----------



## Izzy

Or if anyone else knows where to get those kinds of oils in Canada?


----------



## JimDawson

Local auto parts store.


----------



## Izzy

I didn't think they would carry anything that specific we're limited in certain things here in Canada lol I'll see what they carry!


----------



## brino

Izzy,

When I asked Cincinnati about what oil to use in my 1916 mill, they said ISO-46.
I bought the first couple jugs from "Sunlight Oil Ltd." in the city, and then found out that my local Tractor Supply Company (http://www.tscstores.com/Default.aspx) sell large buckets of hydraulic oil and put it on sale regularly.
http://www.tscstores.com/Valvoline-AW-Hydraulic-Oil-ISO-46-19L-P29527.aspx#.V_7T4Jc6_h4

I use that for all lubrication points on both the Cincinnati mill and my 1937 Southbend lathe.
I have a little manual pump and decant some into a pair of ketchup and mustard bottles whose tips just fit the machine oilers.

-brino


----------



## Izzy

Ooh no doubt I didn't realise it was just hydraulic oil, I go to tsc quite often  gonna be making chips alot sooner than I thought!


----------



## Dabbler

You can get "Tonna" way oil (I use 68 weight), but you can get 40 or 68 at BlueWave energy.  Your local contact is at 1-800-265-9020.  They prefer to deliver, but delivery is free.


----------



## Izzy

Was messing around with the machine and found that I've got about .006" of slant in the table from full stop to full stop could be the table that's got high spots or the way I measured (dial indicator in a drill chuck reading off the table) and I've got about .020" backlash in the x-axis and about .030" in Y the knee is pretty tight at about .002"


----------



## brino

Hi Izzy,

A couple thoughts: (if that 6 thou. is in the x direction)
-over that loooong table 6 thou. is not horrendous
-any looseness in the dovetail ways could allow that table to tilt a little under it's own weight due to the overhang, does tightening the table locks change the measurement at each end?
-I am not real familiar with that machine, does it have the ability to rotate the head? maybe it's out of tram?

If you put something flat and smooth on the table you can also do that same test over the y-feed. This measurement will be affected by the "nod" of the head. (......and of course by any table irregularities too!)

Most lead-screw backlash can be worked around by careful planning of feed directions, but it might be worth inspecting the lead-screws and nuts. The lead-screws normally wear most in the middle as that's where they used most.

-brino


----------



## JimDawson

There are 3 places the 0.006 could be coming from:  Knee, Saddle, and Table.  Or a combination of all 3 which is the most likely.  It is not likely that the table is worn that much, or even that the table ways are worn that much.  Consider that the table weighs 100's of pounds and once cranked to it's extremes is is putting a lot of twisting force on everything.   When unlocked, my knee ''twists'' about 0.003, measured about 3 inches off to the side of the knee, as the table moves through it's travel.  I can see this movement on the DRO reading.  My machine is about the same size as yours.

Doing the same test again, start at zero in the center and look at the change as you move the towards the ends.  My guess is that the indicator will move positive as you work toward the ends.  Then repeat this test with the knee and saddle locked as @brino suggests.  You should see less change in the values.  Then doing the test after unlocking the saddle and knee one at a time should tell you where the real problem is at.

Once the machine is cleaned up and lubed, then start adjusting gibs on each axis.  I'll bet most of that goes away.

0.020 and 0.030 backlash is what I would consider in the range of normal.  You always have to approach your work from the same direction to compensate for the backlash, this is standard practice on any machine.   The nuts may be adjustable, but don't tighten too much or you will get tight spots.


----------



## Izzy

@brino yes I have tilt and nod adjustment I did a quick circular sweep to make sure the head was trammed and it was pretty good I'll have to try again with the other axes locked. After doing some math it seems alot worse than what I thought it works out to be just shy of .0002" per inch of travel. One of the things I'd like to do is head re-surfacing and my tolerance for that is it has to be flat to within 3thou per 6" length or a total of8thou over the length of the head (18") so by some rough calculations I would be just under 3thou at the 15" mark which is no good for that so I'll have to do some more measuring and figure out if anything needs to be/ can be done thanks guys!


----------



## chips&more

Cast iron that has been neglected and left to rust can look terrible and thought to be BER. In my experience, I have been pleasantly surprised to find out with a little elbow grease the once ugly cast iron can look almost as good as new. Corrosion on carbon steel is a different story. Corrosion on aluminum is a very different story…Dave


----------



## LucknowKen

Izzy said:


> Or if anyone else knows where to get those kinds of oils in Canada?


http://www.monarchoil.com/products.php


----------



## Dabbler

Izzy, your machine is in great shape for a machine costing many times what you paid for it!  If you could tell us what you were measuring when you got the deviation, it would help with giving advice as to how to resolve the issue, if there is one.

Since there is visible corrosion, I would take the table off the X ways and carefully check and clean them.  Dried oil in any of the ways will cause deviations, and some of it will go with lube, but cleaning it out will be easier on the ways.  If they are clean, then I'd leave the Y ways alone.  If the X ways are cruddy, then the Y ways will need attention too.


----------



## Keith Foor

This thing was a steal.  It's had a very boring life to be sure.  In case you hadn't noticed, those funny C shaped marks all over the mating surfaces are the marks from the final scraping in or the surfaces to get them flat.  Those marks wear off on a well used machine and to have them present is a really good sign.  My advice is the same as the others.  Before you get too far into it clean it really well.  Start with kerosene or diesel and a 'scotchbright' pad or fine steel wool.  That will lift much of the heavier junk.  Once it's cleaning up, switch to MEK or Acetone and rags.  Be advised, MEK and Acetone are stupid flammable.  No heat sources or flames, and for God sake don't smoke around the fumes.  Running those fumes through a lit cig,,, bad stuff for your lungs.  Now this stuff is a light aromatic solvent.  Meaning lots of ventilation is needed if you don't want to REALLY enjoy scrubbing years of hardened way oil from your find.  

Now I am not sure what measuring you did.  But understand that the table top on a mill gets more abuse than anywhere else, and with the fact this think sat unused for a while, it was probably a catch all surface. Meaning the table surface may be a bit beat up.  There are ways of dealing with that.  But get things cleaned, then search out a video or two on tramming the head of a mill and do what you see on the video, then take your measurements.


----------



## Izzy

@Dabbler basically I mounted a dial indicator in a drill chuck and checked to make sure my head was trammed before measuring and it was pretty good. I then moved the table all the way out to full stop, put .025" preload on the dial indicator set it to 0 then ran the table to the opposite end I figured this way would just give me an overall totall was this method ok? And how do I go abouts taking the table off?

@Keith Foor I went out and bought some fine stainless steel wool and scrubbed the **** out of it with some wd-40 and it cleaned up pretty well all the ways have that fish scaling to it still except the knee way you can see the line where the fish scaling stops in the picture. The table is very brown even after the wool I'm gonna go at it with the solvents you mentioned and see where it gets me what are some ways to go about cleaning the table and getting it back to its original shine or is that just not possible anymore? Here is a photo after cleaning and fresh oil!


----------



## Dabbler

Firstly let me congratulate you on basically unworn ways - this machine is in great shape!  If you were to put an indicator on the Y saddle way and indicate the Z axis way at the discolouration, you would probably find a couple of tenths of deviation where the discolouration occurs...  Certainly nothing to be worried about.  Your Y ways are in perfect shape.  You can view one side of your X ways to check by running the table to each end, photographing the ways from below.  I would guess that they are in good shape, except for some corrosion as per the Z ways.  The discolouration is very likely due to the machine sitting idle and un-lubed for years, so that condensation collected could erode the z way at the point of contact.  No biggie.

A Quick warning:  I'd stop using steel wool and move to a stiff plastic brush or a plastic pot scrubber.  Firstly, the steel wool cuts the cast iron.  This produces micro fine particles that are hard to get rid of and contaminates the oil in your ways.  Secondly, steel wool is fairly aggressive and I'd not want to round off any of the flaking (scraping marks) out, because they hold oil, which ensures the life of your ways. Oh - and thirdly, a fiber of the steel wool can fall off, remain unnoticed and get in between the ways, scoring them for posterity.

A way to get rid of the iron oxide is to do spot application of CLR and then rinse and re-lube immediately.  Paper wipes, followed by Alcohol and / or WD 40 are helpful in purging the water before rubbing on way lube...  It is important to get rid of all the water before coating the ways in oil.

From your description, I'm guessing that you were talking about measuring in X.  I would repeat the same indicator check in each of X, Y, and X, and record the results.  Now to your problem:  What you are seeing is not uncommon in older machines, where the ways in X are worn in the centre of the table.  To fix the ways will tale a lot of work, and completely disassembling the components of the X and Y travel [If you have the table off it makes sense to do both.]    In the majority of cases, the Z travel isn't far off or worn enough to take the knee off - a very big, heavy job...

You could disassemble the table by following  the steps in various Bridgeport maintenance manual (there are a few fiddly bits, and its too long for my memory...)  If you are interested in very light use for the moment, why not just lube up , and start to use it, gain confidence, then do a complete rebuild when you have 'more meat in the game'?

(Or, if you don't like I could buy it from you!  - Just kidding)


----------



## Izzy

I'll have to re-measure and go from there its probably not as bad as I think from what everyone is telling me its in great shape! There are a few deep scratches in the Y and i guess it just worried me more than it should I'm verry happy with my machine and i really do want to just make chips  ill try the clr and see what it gets me I tried running a fine honing stone over a corner of the table top that was brown and it just gunked up the stone :/ I should get myself a straight edge to see how striaght the table is tho maybe I'm measure dirt on the table its very spotty lol lots of brown and a few shiney spots I'd really lile to get a nice shine back on the table


----------



## Dabbler

Your table shows that someone, at some time, use it quite a lot.  It's condition seems pretty good, however.  Several things about not 'gunking' your stone.  Saturate it in varsol.  Use very VERY light pressure, with long strokes.  Relube in varsol every stroke or 2 until most of the colour is gone.  Then and only then can you start to use pressure.  You will find that your stone is cleaner (and will remain flatter)

You can cut a 1/4 inch groove in the ways and not affect accuracy.  (not that you would!)  the longs ways average the total of the high spots to produce the accurate movement we associate with these machines.  The odd scratch makes no difference.

I've taken an old table on a friend's machine to an oil work machine shop and have the top reground.  It cost about 150.00 about 10 years ago.  If you have a large flat stone, you could try to hone it, but you'd most likely produce dips and twists in the table.  Run an  1/10,000 indicator from your spindle over each of the 4 flats on the table.  You shouldn't see much deviation except for the way wear.  If it were my machine I'd use my XFine Arkansas stone to take out the high points and dings and use it as-is.


----------



## Izzy

I'm gonna do just that hone it a little and re-measure everything accurately now that I know the proper way to do it. I'm really flattered by the amount of people who want to buy my machine tho


----------



## Sblack

Anybody know the procedure for scraping in chromed ways? Just curious. Seeing that there is flaking I guess one can assume that the normal scraping procedures apply? Or are they generally ground?


----------



## scwhite

Izzy said:


> So I recently acquired a 1972 Bridgeport series 2 for a hell of a deal and I've been learning as much as I can about machining, tooling and setups just as much as I can about machining in general. I'm currently working on getting the machine converted to 230vac operation as I would like to see it running before I go ahead and start with any sort of restoration. I figured you guys would know best so I got some close ups of all my ways and I'm wondering what you guys think, is it worth salvaging!?
> View attachment 137348
> View attachment 137349
> View attachment 137350
> View attachment 137351
> View attachment 137353
> View attachment 137348
> View attachment 137349
> View attachment 137350
> View attachment 137351
> View attachment 137353
> View attachment 137354
> View attachment 137355
> View attachment 137356


A series 2 Bridgeport is a big machine
And awqured to work at .
   They are very heavyduty and a heck of a lot
More ridged than a series 1 Bridgeport.
     I would get it cleaned up and running real
Good . Then try to trade down to a Bridgeport series 1  mill.
     The Bridgeport series 1 with the J head would
Be a lot more comfortable to run .
      If you have room to keep it in your shop
Then  fine keep it and get a series 1 also.


----------



## Tony Wells

Excellent score, it seems. Let's just hope it stays that way. It's impossible to tell just how good a condition it is until you put it in service. Let's hope there isn't something hidden that will take the shine off what appears to be a super deal.

I'm with the clean up first crew. Scotchbrite or steel wool and a mild solvent will make a huge difference in your ability to see what lies hidden. Save the stone work for areas that you can see a good reason for it. If there are no dings to stone down, then so much the better. And things that are difficult to move may well free up once things are clean. I wouldn't try to run it too much until I was satisfied that all moving parts are clean and well lubricated. Then you can give it a more fair evaluation. If nothing major shows up, then you definitely got a steal. Great going and I hope that is how things turn out. But even if you have to spend some on a few bits here and there, it's still overwhelmingly in your favor that you got a good or great deal. Many of us would (and should) be envious.


----------



## scwhite

Sblack said:


> Anybody know the procedure for scraping in chromed ways? Just curious. Seeing that there is flaking I guess one can assume that the normal scraping procedures apply? Or are they generally ground?


Chromed ways would be to hard to hand scrap
I would think . I know noting about scraping
But don't think you could .
     It is just my  opinion


----------



## petertha

KBC (Canada) sells a good selection of different weight way oil's. 1 gal size as I recall under EEZ brand. I've seen some guys re-packaging them into smaller bottles, but not in Canada.


----------

