# Atlas 12/36 Question



## ChuckB (Feb 8, 2013)

Should I be able to lift the front of the apron up and down? I know the rear has gibs to tighten it up. Can not see any in the front when assembled. Getting some horrible cuts and this is one area that I didn't consider. Thanks.


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## ChuckB (Feb 8, 2013)

Steve. So that means it shouldn't be that loose.. I think I will slide it off to see what you are talking about. Very easy to do.   Thanks, Chuck


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## ChuckB (Feb 8, 2013)

sssfox said:


> Chuck,
> 
> It shouldn't be loose at all.  I would guess the clearance on mine is less than .002".
> The more clearance, the greater the chance of chatter, among other things.
> ...



I just removed and took the brass shim out of the control side and slid it back on.. better but still has considerable play. The long plate is worn/grooved.. I cannot flip it over because the screws wont line up.. I think I will try to true it on a granite stone with some sand paper..


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## ChuckB (Feb 8, 2013)

Put it back together.. I didn't measure it before, but it now has .005 play toward the middle.. tighter on the end.. curse of the used lathe.. worn bed/ways.. I guess there's not too much I can do about it, right?


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 8, 2013)

i'm interested to know, Steve what forum did you read it on?
i haven't, as of yet, got to the point of measuring my bed yet out of fear of the findings.
i'm very interested in scraping and may attempt an overhaul upon gaining skill.
i am a mere grasshopper right now. i'm 43 , but doing my best to learn at least two things everyday from the HM forums!
thanks for the post,  
mike


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## ChuckB (Feb 8, 2013)

I guess I will live with it for now. I have a SB10L that I am restoring. I will never buy another flat way'ed lathe again or at least an Atlas unless it is in great condition and the price is right. I now truly know most of what to look for when buying a used lathe!  I will sell this one and get most of my money back. Thanks for the help. Chuck


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## pdentrem (Feb 8, 2013)

I placed a single Belleville washer on each bolt, this helped my variable clearance issues on my Atlas. It was reasonable snug by the HS and just right by the time I got half way down the ways.
Pierre


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## Ray C (Feb 8, 2013)

I had an Atlas TH-42 for a few years.  It was the first lathe I bought after not doing much machining for 25+ years where I previously used a LeBlond 16x54.  The Atlas served me well but it was pretty well worn from 20+ years use at Bethlehem Steel in PA.  The ways were worn about 0.007" near the headstock and that made carriage adjustment tricky for longer pieces.  I eventually built hand tools to even-out the ways and I machined the carriage underside to match. -Had no idea what I was doing but it came-out much better afterward.  I rebuilt just about everything in it and in between doing that, did enough side jobs to pay for the new lathe.  They require a little extra care but they work and are great learning experience if you want to dabble in machine rebuilding.  I took so much for granted with my dad's LeBlond and learned a lot with the Atlas...  I sold the Atlas some time ago to a friend/neighbor for $300 which is what I paid for it -and he's enjoying it.  Good bad or otherwise, they sure seem to outlast the people that use them...


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## ChuckB (Feb 9, 2013)

I guess it's not too bad as long as I make deep cuts.. when I want to take a couple thous off is when I have the problem..  Maybe I will use emery cloth when I get to that point..

Also why is it that when I make a pass and back it off more metal comes off.. and then going foward again without turning the dial even more metal?


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## pdentrem (Feb 9, 2013)

All machines do this, just some more than others. Every machine has tolerances and moving parts that have some play to allow movement.
What happens when you take a cut and then more metal is removed is a natural reaction called springing. The metal is slightly deflected away from the tool, just as the tool is deflected in the opposite direction. This why one takes a couple passes without moving the tool to remove the extra metal when one gets close to size. One wants to be careful as you get close to finish size as your final cut could be too little or too much.
Also the deflection will be more as the tool gets dull, and as well the further you are from the supported end of the piece. If between centers then the deflection is in the center and if only held in the chuck then the far unsupported end will be deflected.
Pierre


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## ChuckB (Feb 9, 2013)

Thanks Pierre for the explaination. I think my tool is a little dull. Between that and the normal springing that certainly explains it.

I still have massive play with the front shim out so I don't think the Belleville washer will work for me. The rear way is tight when the shim was removed enough to make me have to loosen the screws so it wouldn't be too tight. Thinner shim need there.

In my case, being my front way is so worn, even with the carriage tight, unless the play was taken from the top surface of the ways, wouldn't the taper on the work still show up? 

I have read about some kind of filler for the ways mentioned in some threads. Will that really work?


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## pdentrem (Feb 9, 2013)

If your frt of the carriage is still too loose verses the back I wonder if there is a groove worn into the plate. I know that mine had. I simply made a new one and shimmed to fit. Yes all the wear is on the top surface of the ways, unless the plate was too tight and wore the underside as well. Not likely. Take a mic and measure the ways from the Headstock area where the carriage does not ride on and at the tailstock end, they should be the same. Now measure along from end to end and you should see the most wear in the first 6" and taper to nothing as you get to about 3/4 along. Most wear is in the first 10".

As for the extra wear in front of the HS, there is only one way to fix it. Grind the ways flat. There have been a multitude of suggestions on how but the best way mentioned was to find a shop that can indicate from the underside of the ways and then work the top surface. Alot of people will then answer that the surface is a ground surface blaa blaa blaa that it will not last and will cause extra wear etc, one still has to finish after grinding ie polish and scrap. The filler is used on the underside of the carriage to lift the carriage up to maintain the fit to the rack which is pinned on the underside.
My Atlas was from the 30s and had been ground a couple times by the previous owners, one being the school board, and it needs it again. There was aleast .070" removed in its life time so far but it still did good work for me. Before I sold it to a machinist friend, I had installed on the underside of the carriage a brass filler strip that I simply screwed into place using tiny countersunk machine screws. This lifted the carriage to regain the proper fit to the rack and realign the leadscrew as well.
My rifle barrels have not complained!
Pierre

PS a really crazy way to rebuild the top of the ways is flame spray but just think of the problems one can get into doing that. Still have to regrind the top afterwards.


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## ChuckB (Feb 9, 2013)

Steve, Taper was probably the wrong word.. I should have said inconsistant diameters.

I imagine that tightening the carriage, by pulling it down,  would stop potential chatter, but wouldn't help with uneven cuts being that the carriage still drops into the low area of the ways. Thanks for your and everyone elses input. Chuck


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## pdentrem (Feb 9, 2013)

One thing I should of mentioned is to use a smaller radius tool. The cutting forces are then on a smaller area and thus one tends to get a better sizing as the springing away is reduced, still there but smaller. Have to use a slower/smaller feed rate naturally to match the smaller radius. 
Use a large radius tool to hog out most of the metal and then replace with a fresh sharpened smaller radius tool to finish.
Pierre


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## ChuckB (Feb 9, 2013)

Steve.. With my additional adjustments I don't think I have much to complain about. I chucked this up.. took some deep cuts and got 1.4787 at the headstock, 1.4793 in the middle and 1.479 towards the tail stock. I had the carriage feed set at .0078 with the chuck rpm at 345. Used a small triangle insert type bit.


I am a rookie, so sorry if this incorrect, but..I know it is probably sticking out too far and I should have use my tailstock with a live center and the feed/rpms are wrong.. I need to look in my book and set things correctly.  Light cuts are not so good. EDIT: (maybe my bit is dull?)


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## Uncle Buck (Feb 9, 2013)

ChuckB said:


> I guess I will live with it for now. I have a SB10L that I am restoring. I will never buy another flat way'ed lathe again or at least an Atlas unless it is in great condition and the price is right. I now truly know most of what to look for when buying a used lathe!  I will sell this one and get most of my money back. Thanks for the help. Chuck



You might want to sell those legs separate of the machine as they seem to fetch $200 or more per set last I knew.......Just an idea if you are selling.....


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## ChuckB (Feb 9, 2013)

Uncle Buck said:


> You might want to sell those legs separate of the machine as they seem to fetch $200 or more per set last I knew.......Just an idea if you are selling.....




:thinking: I don't know.. I'm starting to like this lathe! )


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## Ulma Doctor (Feb 9, 2013)

pdentrem said:


> All machines do this, just some more than others. Every machine has tolerances and moving parts that have some play to allow movement.
> What happens when you take a cut and then more metal is removed is a natural reaction called springing. The metal is slightly deflected away from the tool, just as the tool is deflected in the opposite direction. This why one takes a couple passes without moving the tool to remove the extra metal when one gets close to size. One wants to be careful as you get close to finish size as your final cut could be too little or too much.
> Also the deflection will be more as the tool gets dull, and as well the further you are from the supported end of the piece. If between centers then the deflection is in the center and if only held in the chuck then the far unsupported end will be deflected.
> Pierre



amen to that!, i ruined more pieces buy undercutting rather than making a spring cut.
the things we learn as we go along!  )


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## pdentrem (Feb 9, 2013)

You can buy a lot of HSS for the price of carbide. Yes it gives a better finish.

In the work shop, we do not care about spring as we will turn to an oversized diameter and then walk it over to the cylindical grinder and finish to size. Now most all home users do not have that type of equipment so going to finish size with a bit of polishing at the end is what one has to do.
Pierre

PS The Landis 12X24 cylindrical grinder that was listed in the posting about equipment for sale sold for the extremely high price of $330! The owner did drop the ball and did not get in on it. We still need an other one!


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## ChuckB (Feb 9, 2013)

sssfox said:


> All in all, that is not bad.  I see you have a QCTP, that's half the battle.  I've always had difficulty getting accuracy less than .001" on my Atlas.  I don't even own a micrometer with greater than 1" range.  I use dial calipers.
> 
> Carbide can stand (make that requires) faster speeds than High Speed Steel, so if it were me, I would at least double the spindle speed and extend the bit a little less from the toolpost.  Although, that doesn't exactly explain your measurements, it should give you a smoother finish.
> 
> ...



I just got that tool post and made the adapter for it the other night.. I have only just started using it. I used one of those square turret type holder before and had been using 3/8 carbide  bits.. I had all kinds of trouble. I got fustrated and lost interest in my lathe and rarely used it other than lapping races.. I really like the QCTP.. worlds better. I needed to make a simple tool recently and got back into it.. I then realized that the 3/8 carbide bits that I was using were always above center.. and that was the reason for the lousy cuts.  I have got back into it and am having fun again!

As far as your question.. a few deepish Cuts.. seems The only good cuts I could make were .006 deep.. any lighter and the finish was grooved and poor. Maybe I just need to practice more. I need to make a quill lock for an older Craftsman drill press.. luck has it that an even older 150 Crafstman drill press uses the same lock, so I have something to copy.. A nice little project that is within my capabilities. 


Getting back into this made me want to continue restoring my SB10L.. I started this thread a while ago. but where the thread ended is about the condition of the lathe. I am modivated again and am working on it right now ) I might add to the thread after I paint some small parts..


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## the gentleman (Feb 9, 2013)

ChuckB said:


> Steve, Taper was probably the wrong word.. I should have said inconsistant diameters.
> 
> I imagine that tightening the carriage, by pulling it down,  would stop potential chatter, but wouldn't help with uneven cuts being that the carriage still drops into the low area of the ways. Thanks for your and everyone elses input. Chuck



MAKE SURE YOU ALWAYS MAKE A CUT TOWARD THE HEADSTOCK AND NOT THE OTHER WAY :nono:


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## tripletap3 (Feb 9, 2013)

Just to throw my 2cents worth in Chuck. I know I preach this all the time to Atlas owners. CAN THE CARBIDE! Get HSS. *Arthur* *Warner* Co sells indexable HSS bits and holders that will perform a zillion percent better than carbide inserts do on the Atlas lathes. I personally hate those triangle insert lathe tools but If you don’t want to spend the initial investment on a new tool You might be able to buy just the HSS the inserts for your current ones. http://littlemachineshop.com/info/inserts.php. You will be amazed at the difference. To explain this the fastest way I can. Some people think that carbide is just better than HSS because it is stronger and stays sharper, but the two actually work completely different to remove metal. HSS cuts away the metal as carbide microscopically chips it away. This is why carbide requires much faster speeds AND more rigidity on the work piece and tooling to make a smooth cut. A exaggerated example would be if you were to lay a bock of wood on your work bench and slice a chunk off with a knife while holding it, this would be like HSS. Carbide would be like taking the same block and take a wood chisel and hammer and chip at. You would remove much more wood faster but you would get a inconstant finish and it would be more difficult to hold the block steady making the finish worse. Clear as mud yet? Loose machine tolerances are not as noticeable when using sharp HSS. My new lathe is much more ridged and powerful that my old Atlas but I still use HSS on 90% of everything. They are easy to resharpen and you don't have to figure out angles or have special grinding wheels just a flat stone and a drop of oil. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LKGkkGFsF50


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## ChuckB (Feb 9, 2013)

the gentleman said:


> MAKE SURE YOU ALWAYS MAKE A CUT TOWARD THE HEADSTOCK AND NOT THE OTHER WAY :nono:



Yes.. it did sound like I was going away from the headstock.. I have been cutting from right to left.




pdentrem said:


> You can buy a lot of HSS for the price of carbide. Yes it gives a better finish.
> 
> In the work shop, we do not care about spring as we will turn to an oversized diameter and then walk it over to the cylindical grinder and finish to size. Now most all home users do not have that type of equipment so going to finish size with a bit of polishing at the end is what one has to do.
> Pierre
> ...





sssfox said:


> Increasing the spindle speed will help that.
> Check the tip of the bit to make sure it isn't chipped.
> I have several of those bits and they readily chips if you run them past the center when facing.
> HSS bits will help, too.  Do you have any you could try?
> ...



I have a lot of HSS.. I just haven't mastered the art of sharpening.. but the again, I haven't tried too hard..  had saw some great videos on youtube.. one by tubelicane comes to mind. I will give it another try.. only reason I used the carbide, because I had them and they were ready to go.





tripletap3 said:


> Just to throw my 2cents worth in Chuck. I know I preach this all the time to Atlas owners. CAN THE CARBIDE! Get HSS. *Arthur* *Warner* Co sells indexable HSS bits and holders that will perform a zillion percent better than carbide inserts do on the Atlas lathes. I personally hate those triangle insert lathe tools but If you don’t want to spend the initial investment on a new tool You might be able to buy just the HSS the inserts for your current ones. http://littlemachineshop.com/info/inserts.php. You will be amazed at the difference. To explain this the fastest way I can. Some people think that carbide is just better than HSS because it is stronger and stays sharper, but the two actually work completely different to remove metal. HSS cuts away the metal as carbide microscopically chips it away. This is why carbide requires much faster speeds AND more rigidity on the work piece and tooling to make a smooth cut. A exaggerated example would be if you were to lay a bock of wood on your work bench and slice a chunk off with a knife while holding it, this would be like HSS. Carbide would be like taking the same block and take a wood chisel and hammer and chip at. You would remove much more wood faster but you would get a inconstant finish and it would be more difficult to hold the block steady making the finish worse. Clear as mud yet? Loose machine tolerances are not as noticeable when using sharp HSS. My new lathe is much more ridged and powerful that my old Atlas but I still use HSS on 90% of everything. They are easy to resharpen and you don't have to figure out angles or have special grinding wheels just a flat stone and a drop of oil. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LKGkkGFsF50



Thanks for the info.. Everyone has told me to same... ditch the carbide and try HSS!! I will give it a try.

Those HSS inserts are amazing!! I want some!


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## ChuckB (Feb 10, 2013)

I thought everything was fine after I turned the large diameter piece.. Tried some smaller pieces <1" .. horrible finish.. inconsistant diameters..( maybe that could be a clue??)

 I sharpened some HSS and I thought the bit looked pretty good, but same results. Took the motor drive apart and shimmed to remove any play that i could find and it did lessen the vibration, but  same results.. This is why I lost intrest when I first bought this a couple years ago.. it's all coming back. I have spent at least 40 hours within the last week trying to get this to work for me. I am so fustrated..


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## pdentrem (Feb 10, 2013)

I think you are seeing the difference between turning a large stiff piece vs a thinner flexi piece. The finish will not be the same if the cutting forces are not matched. What I mean is that the stiffer the work the deeper the cut in theory and vice versus with a lighter or longer part that requires a smaller cut and feed rate. Also is not supported enough. Using a tailstock to support the other end can have a very large effect of the final finish.
For example I regularly turn 4" long rods that are .420" +0/-.005". I have the rod supported with a center via the TS other wise you can visually see the part deflect away from the tool. Also if I take a heavy cut the center of the rod will be different than the two ends.
Tool sharpness, feed rates, tool height all have a bearing on the finish product.
Pierre


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## ChuckB (Feb 10, 2013)

sssfox said:


> Where are you in Florida?
> 
> Did you get the problem with the front of the carriage fixed?
> 
> What shape did you grind the bit?



I am in Loxahatchee.  I don't see any way of resolving the carriage play at the front, the ways on that side are worn. I ground a right hand bit, probably not perfect, but even when I used a carbide bit, I got the same results.. Maybe I should make a youtube video to show you..:thinking:

funny I was even thinking of putting an ad on CL looking for a retired machinist that could come by and show me whats wrong..


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## ChuckB (Feb 10, 2013)

pdentrem said:


> I think you are seeing the difference between turning a large stiff piece vs a thinner flexi piece. The finish will not be the same if the cutting forces are not matched. What I mean is that the stiffer the work the deeper the cut in theory and vice versus with a lighter or longer part that requires a smaller cut and feed rate. Also is not supported enough. Using a tailstock to support the other end can have a very large effect of the final finish.
> For example I regularly turn 4" long rods that are .420" +0/-.005". I have the rod supported with a center via the TS other wise you can visually see the part deflect away from the tool. Also if I take a heavy cut the center of the rod will be different than the two ends.
> Tool sharpness, feed rates, tool height all have a bearing on the finish product.
> Pierre



I am staying close to the headstock and things are still lously.. Maybe I should try a long piece and use the live center.. I don't have a steady rest.

I checked the alignment of my tailstock using the center to center method.. found the tailstock to be too low when it dropped into the worn ways.. I shimmed the front of it to get it higher don't know if it right or not..


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## pdentrem (Feb 10, 2013)

How are the spindle bearings? Can you move the spindle back and forth?
Did you tighten the gib on the back side of the carriage? Not the one on the underside, the one pushing against the side of the ways. This one is critical for a good finish.
How about the cross slide gibs? Top swivel bolts and top slide gibs.
Is the tool on center?
What does the leadscrew look like? How worn is it in the first 6" vs the last 6"?
Just some ideas. I had an Atlas as well for 20 yrs before upgrading. I had to fight some of this stuff all the time.
Pierre


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## ChuckB (Feb 10, 2013)

pdentrem said:


> How are the spindle bearings? Can you move the spindle back and forth?
> Did you tighten the gib on the back side of the carriage? Not the one on the underside, the one pushing against the side of the ways. This one is critical for a good finish.
> How about the cross slide gibs? Top swivel bolts and top slide gibs.
> Is the tool on center?
> ...



I checked the spindle for runout looks good. I put a long bar in the chuck and pulled it up and down and sideways with an indicator.. it changed and never went back to zero!!.. ahh haa!!  turned out the 3 jaw chuck wasnt holding the bar in although tightened very tight.. I then switched to another chuck. Same test shows the spindle bearings are tight. Tried turning with the different chuck.. same results.. Tightened all gibs to the point of being too tight.. I only see the ones that are pushing against the ways in the back. I didn't see any on the underside.. Just plates and shims. Same goes for the cross slide and top slide gibs (compound). Swivel bolts are good and when disassembled had the two little angled rods. To center the tool,  I use a fishtail up against the piece and make sure it's 90 degrees or a little low if any thing. The lead screw and nut are probably in very bad condition.. I turn the wheel to take up the play though..


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## ChuckB (Feb 10, 2013)

sssfox said:


> Chuck,
> 
> You are correct, there are no gibs on the bottom, but you still have to adjust the spacing by using the shims.  It should be .001 to .002.  If your ways are worn, then the spacing should be set at the thickest area.
> 
> I had a problem with my spindle and long story short, the drive belt can mask slop in the bearings.  To be sure, slacken the drive belt and repeat your test.  With mine, originally, it was .002 with the belt tight and .016 with it slack.  That might not be part of it, but you need to know for sure.



You know what ?.. maybe I had the belt tight when I did the test.. I will try it again... but I was really pull on that bar hard.

The shims increase play. I removed the shim in the front to try to tighten it up. Even with it removed I have .007 in the worn zone next to the headstock (eariler .005 post was in error). All the way to the right is tight.. around .001 or so   I tried removing the shim in the back and it was too tight. I had to put it back.

I think the worn ways would account for the measurements of the piece changing from end to end.. but shouldn't I be able to get a good finish?? User error??


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## pdentrem (Feb 10, 2013)

I appears that your chucks may have what is called bell mouthed. They are tapered with the open end to the outside. Your work piece is moving around on the first one.
Yes even a pita beatter should still give you a decent finish. Try re running the piece but use the hand wheel to feed instead of the leadscrew. Just curious.

I would suggest resetting the preload on the spindle bearings. There was a posting about it here just recently.
Pierre


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## pdentrem (Feb 10, 2013)

If you turn a longer piece as sssfox suggest, try in between centers to remove any excess play and deflections.


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## wa5cab (Feb 11, 2013)

ChuckB,

Have you ever leveled your bed? If the bed isn't level left to right and front to back, all sorts of wierd things can happen. This is a critical step in setting up any lathe, whether flat bed or inverted V bed. A carpenter's level is OK for roughly leveling the stand or cabinet but not for leveling the bed. Actually, before someone else brings it up, you can do acceptable work if the machine is on a moving ship at sea (if you've never been to sea, nothing is ever level more than momentarily). So it isn't really the levelness of the bed that is critical. But the flatness of the bed, regardless of what type of bed it is. And the cheapest tool for ensuring this is so on a flat bed lathe is a flat bottom precision level.

The carriage (saddle) only has one gib. The cross slide has one. And the compound has one. All can contribute to bad cutter behavior if loose, regardless of the make of lathe. If the carriage gib is loose, the carriage may twist in either direction in reaction to cutter pressure. If the cross slide gib is loose, the cross slide may lift on one side in reaction to downward force on the cutter (depends upon where the cutter tip is in relation to the C/L of the cross slide). Same with the compound. As with a QCTP a turning or facing cutter tip is more often than not hung out over the left side of the carriage, the net force is usually down on the headstock side (up on the tailstock side) and CCW.

<Deleted because it was wrong and might confuse someone in the future.>

Robert D.


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## ChuckB (Feb 11, 2013)

sssfox said:


> I don't think that's causing your problem. If you want to test, get a longer piece and turn the end where the carriage is tight.
> 
> What is the diameter of your workpiece? Still 1.47 or so?  Are you making multiple cuts without advancing the cutter into the work?  That helps to counteract deflection.
> 
> ...



The piece I am using now is about .8 inches. I alway give it another pass or two and material always come off as if I had turned the cross feed. The steel I am using is unknown. Drops bought at a salvage yard. I tried aluminum and it looks even worse. For the most part, I have been turning by hand. When I have used the cross feed, I set it at .0042 and keep the rpms high


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## iron man (Feb 11, 2013)

Hi Chuck I have not had a chance to read all the replies but I had the same problem as you I re-worked everything and the real cause was the 3 jawed chuck itself. I made some blocks for the jaws to clamp down on but still left the surface exposed I then made a mount to hold a die grinder onto the tool post. Turning the chuck very slowly and at a very slow feed I reground the jaws just enough to clean them up. Cleaned out the chuck and to my surprise it turned the shaft with no taper. Now this was not an old chuck knor was it a cheap one but 15 minutes of grinding cured that problem. Ray


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## ChuckB (Feb 11, 2013)

wa5cab said:


> ChuckB,
> 
> Have you ever leveled your bed? If the bed isn't level left to right and front to back, all sorts of wierd things can happen. This is a critical step in setting up any lathe, whether flat bed or inverted V bed. A carpenter's level is OK for roughly leveling the stand or cabinet but not for leveling the bed. Actually, before someone else brings it up, you can do acceptable work if the machine is on a moving ship at sea (if you've never been to sea, nothing is ever level more than momentarily). So it isn't really the levelness of the bed that is critical. But the flatness of the bed, regardless of what type of bed it is. And the cheapest tool for ensuring this is so on a flat bed lathe is a flat bottom precision level.
> 
> ...





Robert, I have leveled my lathe and Have it bolted to the floor. I even tried just snugging up the 4 bolts at the top portion to ensure I am not twisting the bed.

I don't see how the shim can raise or level the carriage. They are located on the bottom, under the bearing plates.. In order to raise or level the carriage, shims would have to be on the top between the ways and the top of the carriage, right? The only thing I can see shims doing is to prevent upward play when the carriage is lifted up. The more shims, the more the carriage would lift up. Know what I mean? In my case, no shims and the carriage has about .006-.007 of play when I measure using a dial indicator and lift up.


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## wa5cab (Feb 11, 2013)

Chuck,

You're absolutely right.  I think that's the worst Senior Moment I ever had.  I described part of something I built on an inspection machine in the 1970's.  And hadn't thought about in nearly that long
Robert D.:whiteflag:


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## ChuckB (Feb 12, 2013)

wa5cab said:


> Chuck,
> 
> You're absolutely right.  I think that's the worst Senior Moment I ever had.  I described part of something I built on an inspection machine in the 1970's.  And hadn't thought about in nearly that long
> Robert D.:whiteflag:



I had a terrible senior moment today.. drove off with all my tools/cart/ladder left behind in the parking lot of a hospital.. didn't realize it till about 5 hours later at about 10:30 PM.. called the night maintenance guy who looked in the parking lot.. Nope! no tools.. I asked him to look in the maintenance shop.. sure enough.. someone rolled them in! Left the house right away and got them! Whew!! that was close 

Let me run this by all of ya'll.. on my lathe, the front way seems to be worn more than the rear.. makes sense.. when the tool has pressure on it, it is pushing down on the carriage and causing more wear on the front way.. with this in mind and plus being told time and time again how critical tool alignment is, it made me think.. that tool is always going to be at the wrong angle on the work due to the front way wear, right? I clamped a small percision level in the tool holder of my QCTP.. I wanted to see how much out of level the tool post was holding the tool.. wow way out of level.. I then commenced to sliding feeler gages as shims on the back side of the QCTP.. it took about .005 to get the bubble centered on the level.. coincidentally about the same amount of lift that I measured with the dial indicator at the carriage before I took the bottom brass shim out..  I turned a piece of rod about 1" in diameter and you know what?? much better. I was using a poorly ground HSS bit that I made and it still came out decent.. not a perfect finish, but better than the last couple of days.. I think I'm on to something.. I would post a pic, but I am out of batteries.. What do you think? am I barking up the wrong tree??


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## pdentrem (Feb 12, 2013)

Keep barking, the coon will stay up the tree and out of your garbage.


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## joe_m (Feb 12, 2013)

ChuckB said:


> why is it that when I make a pass and back it off more metal comes off.. and then going foward again without turning the dial even more metal?



Are all the gibs really tightened correctly? I was getting the same thing on my Leblond and because I was a newbie I thought it was either normal or meant that my lathe was worn out. Then I read somewhere that I shouldn't be able to jiggle the compound like a bowl of jello so I tightened the two gibbs until I couldn't wiggle it by hand. It took about 30 seconds and I'm getting much more consistent results now - and when I use the slower auto-feed there isn't extra metal coming off when I back up or if I make a second pass.


Joe


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## ChuckB (Feb 12, 2013)

sssfox said:


> From all that you've said, I think you need to concentrate your energies on perfecting your tool bit shaping/sharpening.
> What type of grinding wheel are you using?  It should be fairly fine grit and the finished edge should be smooth and sharp.
> You could also use a belt sander if you have one.
> 
> Steve Fox



I agree Steve. I dont have a decent wheel on any of my grinders, but I will get one. 

Exactly which one would you recommend for a standard bench top grinder with 6 inch wheels???  

I do have a  bench top belt sander, but its too difficult to get the side and top reliefs. The grinder is a lot more eaiser for me. I realize that its not really too hard cutting HSS.. I can see me getting good at it with a little practice.. even with the grooved, uneven wheel I can do a pretty good job.


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## wa5cab (Feb 13, 2013)

Also buy a wheel dresser.  It isn't too effective at truing up a badly out of ballance wheel but if that isn't the problem, it will give you a nice flat surface to work on.

Robert D.


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## ChuckB (Feb 13, 2013)

wa5cab said:


> Also buy a wheel dresser.  It isn't too effective at truing up a badly out of ballance wheel but if that isn't the problem, it will give you a nice flat surface to work on.
> 
> Robert D.



I had to make due with a heavy steel bar the other night, it kind of worked,  but I want to get one of those too. I also need to get a better touch up stone.


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## ChuckB (Feb 13, 2013)

pdentrem said:


> Keep barking, the coon will stay up the tree and out of your garbage.



Funny you should say that.. I have been trapping and releasing varmits quite a lot lately.. There is one racoon that is terrorizing our property.. tried to trap him with no success, I might have to just shoot it..


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## wa5cab (Feb 13, 2013)

When you buy a wheel dresser, get a good one.  No more often than you should have to use it, it should last forever.  I've had mine 40+ years.  And DO wear eye protection when you use it.  It throws grit like crazy.

Robert D.



ChuckB said:


> I had to make due with a heavy steel bar the other night, it kind of worked, but I want to get one of those too. I also need to get a better touch up stone.


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## ChuckB (Feb 27, 2013)

Just an update... I was given a lot of good info in this thread. I have been practicing with different speeds and also spending time sharpening HSS. I now realize that with an old machine and just learning, that things might not be perfect, but with effort, they will work out.  I got an old Craftsman drill press that came with my SB 10L purchase that was missing the quill lock. The seller told me that If he found it, he would give me a call. I never heard from him. Wait!! .. that's a good thing! I realized after a while that I have the capibilities to make one! Very basic and within my means. Plus, I have another vintage Craftsman drill press that used the exact same one, so I copied it! My first attempts looked promising, but when I got close to the size I needed, I ended up going too far. I didn't consider the "spring" that was taught to me in this thread.. and plus I made other errors.  Anyway, with persistance and patience, it all came together. Now, mind you, this is very basic for most of you, but I felt an an accomplishment*. *Here is how it turned out. I made a handle out of a 1/2 inch wrench and welded it on. Tried it in the drill press and it was perfect! I will keep practicing and hopefully get better. Thanks again!


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## wa5cab (Feb 28, 2013)

Chuck,

Looks quite decent.  When I first opened the message and glanced at the photograph,  I thought I was looking at a tailstock ram lock.    How did you do the flat bevels?

I noticed that you didn't put the 45 deg. bevels on the two lock plungers that you made.  I don't recall what type tool post you are using but if you have a 4-way turret or a Quick Change, buy a "D" style (90 deg. included angle) brazed carbide cutter and dedicate one position in the turret or one QC facing holder to it.  Grind away the left side of the base metal under the carbide so that you can use it on the ID of small holes.  Use it to break sharp edges and put bevels on the end of shafts and tubes.  The bevels like on the non-working ends of the original locks would take about 10 seconds to do, including tool change.  I made one of these about 30 years ago and still use the same one.

Robert D.


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## ChuckB (Feb 28, 2013)

I did the flat bevels freehand using the bench grinder and then a belt sander. As far as the edges, it's hard to see, but the one towards the wrench is slightly beveled.. the other one was, but I had to shorten it slightly so most of it went away and I didn't bother to redo it. They worked fine the way they were. I also did that freehand using the belt sander. Didn't want to rechuck them up because I was using a 4 jaw.


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## wa5cab (Mar 1, 2013)

OK.  But just remember that real production parts usually have matching bevels both ends of shafts or cylinders.  So if you want your work to look professional (may or may not make any difference in how well it works of course), you need to be able to conveniently do them.

Another comment - 4-jaw chucks are indespensible when you actually need them.  But take comments in these lists of the type "I use my 4-jaw chuck all the time because my 3-jaw has .005 runout" with a grain of salt.  Five thou runout in the chuck, although slightly more than a really good 3-jaw can do, only really matters when it really matters.  And it really usually doesn't.  It wouldn't have made a bit of difference in the parts you made.  If you are making a part that has two or more diameters that need to be concentric and if you have to remove the part from the chuck for some reason (maybe to flip it end for end), just mark the part where the #1 jaw is and when you re-chuck it, match the mark.  

Of course jaws can become bell-mouthed but 4-jaw chucks are just as susceptible to that as 3-jaw's.  

Robert D.


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## ChuckB (Mar 1, 2013)

Thanks Robert, I have a 3 jaw chuck that I would prefer to use, but it needs work. I can chuck up a piece of long steel and when I pull it up and down, it doesn't come back to the original point. I have seen the piece change position and wobble when making a deep cut. The 4 jaw is pretty new and I use it most the time.

As far as not being happy with my finish, I saw a YouTube video about feed rates for Atlas lathes and the person states that .0042, the slowest rate for my lathe,  is too fast a feed rate for a really smooth finish, so maybe I am expecting too much. (?)


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## pdentrem (Mar 1, 2013)

ChuckB said:


> Funny you should say that.. I have been trapping and releasing varmits quite a lot lately.. There is one racoon that is terrorizing our property.. tried to trap him with no success, I might have to just shoot it..



Local trapper uses sardines and sets the trap later in the evening, as possoms are out first and the coons come out closer to midnight or after in our area. He will catch cats but usually they do not return after spending the night in the cage.


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## pdentrem (Mar 1, 2013)

To get a better finish you have to have a sharp tool, the right feed rate and rpm, also the tool nose radius larger than the feed rate. That way you are taking more of a cut like a tangential tool does, almost like a scrapping cut. If you can, a bit of hand polish with emery cloth either in a showshine method or backed with a wooden backer can help. I have use a belt sander on rifle barrels with a used up belt to get a good polish.
Pierre


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## ChuckB (Mar 1, 2013)

pdentrem said:


> To get a better finish you have to have a sharp tool, the right feed rate and rpm, also the tool nose radius larger than the feed rate. That way you are taking more of a cut like a tangential tool does, almost like a scrapping cut. If you can, a bit of hand polish with emery cloth either in a showshine method or backed with a wooden backer can help. I have use a belt sander on rifle barrels with a used up belt to get a good polish.
> Pierre



That makes sense. Thanks for the info. I have used emery cloth before and it does a good job.

Thanks for the trapping info too!

I put this on YouTube yesterday:



[video=youtube;C6bSVQpDId0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6bSVQpDId0[/video]


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## wa5cab (Mar 2, 2013)

Chuck,

.0042 is perha[s a little too fast for a finish cut with a sharply point tip on the cutter.  As Pierre said, if you radius the tip of the cutter, you will usually get a better finish.  They also make carbide inserts with radiused instead of pointed tips.  Also, after finishing a pass, or at least the final pass, you should always back the cutter out before cranking the carriage back to the starting position.  

For use on steel, I keep on hand a roll of 2" or so wide 220 grit sand paper.  And a 10" or so long piece always torn off and available on the ready service shelf behind me.  After the final cut, I hold the strip in the right hand, drop it over the part, catch the other end with the left hand and pull it around the part and walk it up and down the length two or three times to polish.  Then wipe off the part and check the diameter.

The only real complaint that I have ever had with the Atlas feed rates is that the cross feed is about twice as fast as the longitudinal feed.  Too fast for most milling.

The phenomena where a second pass removes just a little metal is I guess just something that happens.  You can minimize it by keeping all three gibs properly adjusted.

Robert D.


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## ChuckB (Mar 2, 2013)

Thanks for all the help. I have been provided some good info here. I just finished making this wrench for my 4 jaw chuck. I'd be ashamed to tell you how long it took.. It started out with with a 1" diameter steel rod. It took a lot of turning to get it down to size.  The tee handle was a long bolt that I had to turn down. Overall, it turned out okay, but I wasn't happy about a couple things. I wanted to press fit the tee portion, but it had a taper after turning it, ( worn ways?) so I ended up notching the center of it and used an allen screw. The worse thing was the square tip. I free handed it in the grinder.. of course it isn't exactly square, but it has a decent fit and works. How should I have done it? 

This is the most complicated thing I have ever done with my lathe and although a little disapointed, I still enjoyed making it and did learn a few things.)


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## ChuckB (Mar 22, 2013)

pdentrem said:


> Local trapper uses sardines and sets the trap later in the evening, as possoms are out first and the coons come out closer to midnight or after in our area. He will catch cats but usually they do not return after spending the night in the cage.



I have been sucessful trapping. What I ended up doing was to put a littile trail of cat food leading to the trap and a bowl of it inside. Caught the big racoon last night. Took him way down the road to the deep woods and let him go. Set it up again as soon as I got home and within an hour or so, caught a medium sized possum. Too late to take him down the road last night, but will do so when I get home.


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## Uncle Buck (Mar 22, 2013)

ChuckB said:


> :thinking: I don't know.. I'm starting to like this lathe! )



I have one identical in every way except those beautiful legs and I doubt I will ever look at replacing mine with another. If I do I know it won't be a new machine, and even to be considered a machine would need to be in like new condition for a used and very heavily tooled. The Atlas spoiled me, it was both, like new and heavily tooled when I got it.


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