# My first job!



## Brento (Oct 2, 2021)

I am getting my first paid job in the shop. I need to cut a bxa dovetail into a Kennametal turning tool. Are they hardened steel? I am thinking in my head already how i plan to tackle the project. Already debating how to take most of the meat out of the dovetail so i can go in and finish with the dovetail cutter.


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## aliva (Oct 2, 2021)

Does it cut with file? If not it's either case hardened or hard thru out


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## Brento (Oct 2, 2021)

I do not have it yet as it is being shipped on monday. But i was curious if people had a consensus if it would be hardened or not.


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## Winegrower (Oct 2, 2021)

My experience trying this on a 1” Kennametal holder was that they are very hard.


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## Cadillac STS (Oct 2, 2021)

I have done dovetails before, AXA ones

The way I got it down to correct width is to use two 1/4 inch dowels placed in the dovetail and keep cutting until you get that measurement. Measured between the dowels.  It helps to have a BXA handy to compare that measurement.  If you don’t have one to compare, maybe someone here could give that measurement.

I also found it helpful to have my AXA QCTP at the mill to check fit while it is still on the chuck.

The dowel thing is what is mentioned online doing those and it worked for me, I just posted it if you didn‘t see it.

Cool to have a paying job for the tools!


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## Brento (Oct 2, 2021)

The customer is sending me a holder to compare with but it looks to be a 1" bar from what i can see as well.


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## T Bredehoft (Oct 2, 2021)

I've had success cutting an AXA dovetail into commercial tool holders, the one I just checked was a Valenite holder, it cut about like 4140, half hard.


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## Brento (Oct 2, 2021)

This is the tool holder i have to cut


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## Winegrower (Oct 2, 2021)

Better go time and materials on this one.


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## Brento (Oct 2, 2021)

Winegrower said:


> Better go time and materials on this one.


What was that?


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## matthewsx (Oct 2, 2021)

As opposed to a fixed price bid.

Also, don't drop that thing on your toe

John


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## jbobb1 (Oct 3, 2021)

I've cut Kennametal holders before and they are pretty tough. I don't know about you, but all my dovetail cutters are HSS, which would mean slow going, but probably doable.
Don't forget you'll need to drill and tap for a height adjustment screw.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 3, 2021)

congrats on your first shop job, it's always super neat to make some money from our tools. I'd mill out the slot with a carbide endmill, then take a small test cut with a dovetail cutter (if HSS). My dovetail cutter is a DIY using TCGT inserts, so I would be less concerned with that. As above, use 2 pins large enough to rest against the face of the dovetail, about the same diameter as the depth of the slot works well. Then simply measure between the two in the known holder and cut until you reach that width with the one you're cutting. I'd go by eye on the first side, so you end up with the same thickness "lip" on the dovetail as the known holder, then cut the other side.

If you have problems with a HSS dovetail cutter, you can always cut the sides of the dovetail with an endmill by tilting the holder to the correct angle.


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## Brento (Oct 3, 2021)

@mattthemuppet2  I plan to do it in 3 ops prob. I am going to dykem the tool to get an eyeball of the slots and after i rough the slot i am going to lay the holder up and carve into the dovetail with a smaller endmill so most meat is gone then finish with the dovetail cutter


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## Weldingrod1 (Oct 3, 2021)

If you have a good bandsaw you might rough it with 3 or 4 cuts.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Cadillac STS (Oct 3, 2021)

I always thought that was a good idea, oversized tool with dove tail cut right into it.  Then the depth stop drilled and tapped in with knurled nut.  The tool is it’s own holder and very rigid.

Key on buying used massive carbide tool holder is get one with carbide inserts still available to buy and better buy used with extra carbides Included.


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## Brento (Oct 3, 2021)

@Weldingrod1 the bandsaw i have is the Harbor freight bandsaw.


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## Brento (Oct 9, 2021)

Does anyone know what angle the dovetail is. Is it a 60 or 45? I may need to order a cutter but i dont want to wait until it gets here to try and order


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## Asm109 (Oct 9, 2021)

Your customer should provide you a print or the mating part for fitting. Otherwise you take on risk that should belong to him.


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## jbobb1 (Oct 9, 2021)

Brento said:


> Does anyone know what angle the dovetail is. Is it a 60 or 45? I may need to order a cutter but i dont want to wait until it gets here to try and order


60


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## Brento (Oct 9, 2021)

Asm109 said:


> Your customer should provide you a print or the mating part for fitting. Otherwise you take on risk that should belong to him.


My customer is sending me another tool holder to compare my numbers with as i cut but i dont want to wait until the work gets here and push everything off while waiting on the cutter


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## Cadillac STS (Oct 9, 2021)

It is supposed to be BXA size.  Here are the dimensions.


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## Brento (Oct 9, 2021)

Thank you @Cadillac STS it is a bxa


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## Cadillac STS (Oct 10, 2021)

If you haven’t done a dovetail before definitely practice on a piece of alminium.  Less likely to dull your new dovetail cutter you need for steel on the real one. 

If he sends you a holder with the bxa in it you could put it next to the part you are going to do and scribe the outline.  You would still measure but it would help you see where the cutting goes.

Use a straight end mill and cut that L2 measurement on the drawing all the way down so the dovetail tool only does what it needs to and not cutting out metal it does not need to.

Original poster may know all that but I like to think that these posts will be here for years and searchable so may help someone else down the line.


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## Dabbler (Oct 10, 2021)

If you haven't started yet - I have a mittful of Kennametal tool holders.  They are around Rc50 hardness, and will eat up your HSS cutter.  This job is an advanced job and needs a hefty mill to make a good finish.  You have to use a carbide insert dovetail cutter after sawing out most of the metal using a bandsaw.  

The expensive way is to ruin HSS tooling to do this.  Even a standard carbide end mill will get dulled on this one job.  If you have a 1" insertable mill cutter, and a insertable dovetail cutter you can get away with minimal tooling cost.

BTW  I have a 1.5" Square Sandvik tool holder I intend to dovetail for my BXA, and I have postponed it for the moment. (I need better tooling before I begin)


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## Brento (Oct 10, 2021)

@Cadillac STS you said exactly what i plan to do. Im going to do it in 3 ops prob. I am going to do the L2 dimension first maybe leave a little material to finish. Then i plan to stand it up and take another endmill and wittle some more material out out before i hit the dovetail.

@Dabbler i havent started yet. The job should be here on Tuesday. I have quite a few carbide cutters that i can use for this job.  But I appreciate your opinion on the dovetail cutter bc i have been on the fence with getting a fresh set of hss or a carbide insert. And you helped me very much.


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## Janderso (Oct 10, 2021)

Weldingrod1 said:


> If you have a good bandsaw you might rough it with 3 or 4 cuts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


+1


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## Brento (Oct 10, 2021)

As i said my band saw is a harbor freight


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## Dabbler (Oct 10, 2021)

If you use a good bimetal blade, it will save a lot of wear on your milling cutters.


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## Brento (Oct 10, 2021)

I can try but i dont think i have really good blades. They were the ones you can get at harbor freight but i think the mid tier priced ones.


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## 7milesup (Oct 10, 2021)

You need to get a good bi-metal blade. Lennox, Starrett, and similar are good bets.  You might have to run to your local supply house to get one.


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## Brento (Oct 10, 2021)

Prob have to order online to get it but at that point id be holding off in the job longer then i quoted. Im not getting paid alot for it anyways bc  it is a first job and i didnt plan to charge alot on jobs to begin with. I may charge a little more next time but i figured stuff i am doing i am doing it for fun plus to make a little money to buy tools which i did for the job already now.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 10, 2021)

not sure how you would use a band saw to do this as there's no way you're going to finagle a 1/2" deep blade around a BXA holder slot.

You'll be fine with a carbide endmill. Start slow, keep your eye on the chips and ear on the sound and take it easy. Step down to cut the first slot, then step over (side milling) to widen it to width. Even if they're through hardened, it's not to super high levels, most say maybe 50RC if that, so carbide will be ok, HSS I'm not so sure. Run it slow with lots of oil and hope for the best!


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## Brento (Oct 11, 2021)

I have a couple of carbide endmills i will use for this. One question i do have is should i start with a bigger endmill like a 1/2 or bigger to do the slot or should i start smaller i have a nice 3/16 carbide rougher i could use to start out but i know bigger would be better sometimes.


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## Brento (Oct 11, 2021)

I also have this cutter. It is 5/8 carbide but this flute is why i would question it. Idk if bc it is beat up sort of if it would be a good candidate to rough it out?


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## Brento (Oct 11, 2021)

Dovetail cutter this is the dovetail cutter i have on order with 6 inserts on the way.


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## rabler (Oct 11, 2021)

Brento said:


> Dovetail cutter this is the dovetail cutter i have on order with 6 inserts on the way.


That cutter has a maximum depth of cut at .325”.  The bxa spec posted earlier has a depth of .409”.  If I’m reading everything correctly it wont work for full depth.


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## Brento (Oct 11, 2021)

I should be able to step it over though.


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## ddickey (Oct 11, 2021)

Looks like a counterbore.


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## Brento (Oct 12, 2021)

I got the tool in today….. and i can file the shank. Not holding my breath but that to me sounds like it will be a little softer then i was thinking.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 12, 2021)

a 3/8" rougher is my go to for jobs like this. I beat up a couple of old ones on the 20 odd AXA size holders I just made, resharpening them by grinding back the flute faces with a dremel grinding wheel. They're not much money and they last for a long long time.


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## Brento (Oct 12, 2021)

Id love to know how you do that @mattthemuppet2 that is a neat idea


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## Dabbler (Oct 12, 2021)

Thank goodness you can file it.  None of my K holders will take a file cut.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 12, 2021)

I keep my old dremel grinding wheels that have worn down for stuff like this. You just angle the endmill and the dremel so the curve of the grinding disk sits against the face of the flute, then gently move it up and down the flute while you rotate the endmill. It's never quite as good as the original, but it gives the cutter a bit more life.


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## Brento (Oct 12, 2021)

I tried a hacksaw blade across it and it skated over. Its not a good hacksaw but i was checking bc if i could hit it with the hacksaw i was going to take the bandsaw to it and try and cut some material out


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## Brento (Oct 12, 2021)

Id almost have to see a video of that @mattthemuppet2


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 13, 2021)

I've got a carbide rougher that needs sharpening - when I get round to it I'll take some pics. No way to take a video as I can't hold the endmill, a dremel and the camera at the same time


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## Brento (Oct 13, 2021)

What you mean you dont have 4 arms to juggle with?  I though that was normal!


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## matthewsx (Oct 13, 2021)

You can do very good work with a Dremel and a cutoff wheel, it really doesn’t matter what road you take as long as you get there.

John


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## addertooth (Oct 13, 2021)

Let me congratulate you on your first job.  Usually a machinist's first job is very enriching, but not in dollars, it is in the knowledge gained on estimating costs for future projects. It teaches you to examine the job more critically, and estimate accurately the difficulty and special tool costs. It also can help in teaching you different approaches at any task.  

I would likely look at this job and take a different approach than most of the GOOD ideas here.   Step one would be annealing the tool.  Then the machining operations (which would be HSS-friendly on annealed steel), followed by a hardening and tempering.  This is the same order of operations the manufacturer of that tool used (although they might have skipped the annealing phase, as they likely bought the steel stock already soft). Then the finish would have to be re-worked after all that is done.  But then, I started making knives back in the 1970s, so heat treating steel is less daunting for me.  Do you have any knife smiths in your area?


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## Doug Gray (Oct 13, 2021)

Sorry wrong thread


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## Brento (Oct 13, 2021)

addertooth said:


> Let me congratulate you on your first job.  Usually a machinist's first job is very enriching, but not in dollars, it is in the knowledge gained on estimating costs for future projects. It teaches you to examine the job more critically, and estimate accurately the difficulty and special tool costs. It also can help in teaching you different approaches at any task.
> 
> I would likely look at this job and take a different approach than most of the GOOD ideas here.   Step one would be annealing the tool.  Then the machining operations (which would be HSS-friendly on annealed steel), followed by a hardening and tempering.  This is the same order of operations the manufacturer of that tool used (although they might have skipped the annealing phase, as they likely bought the steel stock already soft). Then the finish would have to be re-worked after all that is done.  But then, I started making knives back in the 1970s, so heat treating steel is less daunting for me.  Do you have any knife smiths in your area?


As far as i know of i do not have a knife smith around. But i will admit that i was not ready for a hardened tool holder when i first took the job but that goes into my learning curve. Id prob keep my pricing the same but need to get better at an hourly quoting.


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## Cadillac STS (Oct 13, 2021)

Tubal Cain dovetail video:  This is part 2 part 1 also helpful


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## Brento (Oct 13, 2021)

Ive done dovetailing before but thank you! Did quite a bit at my last job.


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## Brento (Oct 13, 2021)

So far it is going good. I feel i am pushing this endmill at a decent rate also. I cant tell my speed/feed really which is why i would like atleast a way to read spindle speed.  Believe it or not ive gotten this carbide rougher for 6$ and seems to be holding up very well.


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## Brento (Oct 14, 2021)

This is what i ended the night on. I cut .100 passes until i got to my depth and have been doing .07 radial passes. By my guestimation im doing prob 23% of the tool diameter in a radial cut.


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## Dabbler (Oct 14, 2021)

Where'd you get the 6$ carbide rougher?  I'd love to try one!

I'm really glad this tool holder is softer than mine!  Great work!


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## Alcap (Oct 14, 2021)

I’ve been following your thread from the beginning, I’m glad to see your getting it cut without too much trouble. Great Job !!


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## Brento (Oct 19, 2021)

Dovetail is now finished. Just need to drill a hole and tap it for the height adjustment tonight and the job is finished.


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## addertooth (Oct 19, 2021)

Excellent work!  I suspect the tap may be a bit of a devil if the material is hard.


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## Dabbler (Oct 19, 2021)

I was thinking a press fit insert in softer steel might be appropriate...


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## woodchucker (Oct 19, 2021)

use a 2 flute tap.. it will be stronger , less prone to break.
if you need a bottom tap, grind the tip off after sending it as far as you dare.


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## Brento (Oct 19, 2021)

I don’t think it will be to difficult. I will find out when i drill it. If it seems to take some pressure to drill then i will weight my options but it doesnt seem to be that hard


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## Brento (Oct 19, 2021)

Job finished and packed for in the morning. Customer was happy with what he has been seeing on my page and the photos i sent him. We settled on a rate and he was happy. I could not tap the hole bc i didnt have a 3/8-24 but he was fine with that. He said he will tap it when he gets it. I told him i can order one and maybe have it friday. Partial my fault as i didnt look into the threads sooner but that was an add on to the job.


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