# Repair worn 1930's Craftsman / Atlas ways



## kdtop (Mar 28, 2021)

Hey all,

I have a 1930's Craftsman / Atlas lathe as per photo




The saddle is constructed such that it rides on the outside of the flat ways and, as expected, in the area of most use, it has worn down, as per photo.




This does two things:  1) It allows the carriage to drop a bit lower, decreasing the engagement of my feed gear into the gear rack under the ways (not shown), which increases backlash slop in the feed wheel.  I could live with this, but it is a bit annoying.  To address this, I have put 0.010" shim under the carriage (see rolled end in the photo) which helps some.

But the second issue is that I can't adjust my carriage gibs etc in well enough get rigidity at my tool point.  This is especially evident when trying to do single-point thread cutting.  I can often move the tip at least 10 thousandths with just my hand.  And if I try to tighten everything up, then the carriage sticks at the point of less wear.

To fix this, I think I have a few options

1) Send ways off to be ground flat. 
2) Scrape the ways flat down to the lowest point. 
3) Build up the worn area and then scrape flat

I'd like to explore option 3 (building up) first. 

Searching this forum, I have found mention of Loctite Fixmaster Metal Rebuilding.  (



) which seems to come as a liquid or putty.  And then there is Turcite and Rulon which seem to come as sheets that are glued down.

Questions:
1) It seems that any type of epoxy is going to have a hard time adhering when it is so thin, i.e. 5 thou'.   So would I need to abrade the surface with grooves to increase adherence?

2) For the Turcite strips, It seems they would adhere to the surface better.  But can the withstand the scraping action that the saddle will place on it?  Seems like I have heard that Turcite is much softer (and thus easier to scrape) than metal.  So does it wear faster?  And how thin are the strips.  Would I have to lower my surface, which is currently 5 thou' down, to 10-20 thou'?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Kevin T


----------



## benmychree (Mar 28, 2021)

Turcite is applied to the underside of the saddle, not to the way surface, the way surface should be reground and the saddle built up with turcite to return it to the proper height for engagement for the rack gear engagement and the leadscrew, or perhaps more sensibly, replace the lathe with another, perhaps more sophisticated than the Atlas.


----------



## pacifica (Mar 28, 2021)

One way to compensate for the taper effect would be to lock the cross slide and use the compound only , a slight angling of the compound  to adjust for the amount of taper caused by worn ways. Tedious and limited to travel of compound. 
Not sure if this addresses the other issues.


----------



## martik777 (Mar 28, 2021)

I had similar wear on my South Bend's V-way and made a sled attachment attached to the tailstock base to plane the ways down to the level of the lowest point.  See post #16-20: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/lathe-bed-restoration.49053/page-2#post-417252 
Obviously your tailstock ways need to be in good shape for this to work.

You could then epoxy some brass strips under the carriage to raise it as needed.

Is that the 12" Craftsman model?





						Early Craftsman 9" and 12" Lathes
					

History and development of the Craftsman, Dunlap and AA Lathes and other machine tools



					www.lathes.co.uk


----------



## kdtop (Mar 28, 2021)

benmychree said:


> Turcite is applied to the underside of the saddle, not to the way surface, the way surface should be reground and the saddle built up with turcite to return it to the proper height for engagement for the rack gear engagement and the leadscrew, or perhaps more sensibly, replace the lathe with another, perhaps more sophisticated than the Atlas.


Thanks for your reply.  It makes more sense if the turcite is applied to the saddle, but it doesn't then help my problem of the worn ways until I can find a way to lower them to the lowest point. 

I got this lathe as a starter lathe, and perhaps it is time for me to move to something better.  I just thought I ought to at least try to save this old beauty.   

KT


----------



## kdtop (Mar 28, 2021)

martik777 said:


> I had similar wear on my South Bend's V-way and made a sled attachment attached to the tailstock base to plane the ways down to the level of the lowest point.  See post #16-20: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/lathe-bed-restoration.49053/page-2#post-417252
> Obviously your tailstock ways need to be in good shape for this to work.
> 
> You could then epoxy some brass strips under the carriage to raise it as needed.
> ...



That video was interesting.  But I think I won't be able to do the same because I don't really have any good reference surfaces that aren't worn.  

The bed is about 36" long, and It is about 6" from the spindle access to the plane of the ways.  So does that mean it is 12"?

The link for the old lathes was cool!  I think mine is a 1938 model.

KT


----------



## martik777 (Mar 28, 2021)

If it is 6" from the center of the spindle to the ways, then it is a 12" swing. 
Aren't the tailstock ways in good condition?


----------



## WCraig (Mar 29, 2021)

kdtop said:


> Thanks for your reply.  It makes more sense if the turcite is applied to the saddle, but it doesn't then help my problem of the worn ways until I can find a way to lower them to the lowest point.
> 
> I got this lathe as a starter lathe, and perhaps it is time for me to move to something better.  I just thought I ought to at least try to save this old beauty.


Fixing wear in a lathe is a costly process--generally considered not justified for a common machine like an Atlas.  In a nutshell, you would have to totally disassemble the lathe and send the bed out to be reground.  The grinding process isn't straight-forward as the bed has to be carefully dialed in and supported so as not to end up with a banana!  It may not be easy to find a shop with the capacity for such a job that is willing to take on a one-shot like this.  Quite likely to be _very_ costly.  OTOH, maybe you already have a good buddy with a high-end machine shop?

Probably, the saddle needs to be reground (or scraped) as there is likely more wear on the operator side.  Turcite would then be applied to the saddle and tailstock to 'replace' the material ground away.  The Turcite needs to be scraped in to get good contact on all surfaces.  

Anything is possible if you throw enough time and money at the issue but most people just move on to a machine that is already in better condition.

Craig


----------



## macardoso (Mar 29, 2021)

We have a commercial forum sponsor who does lathe bed grinding. I think someone has already sent in a lathe and found the cost to be reasonable enough.


----------



## kdtop (Mar 29, 2021)

martik777 said:


> If it is 6" from the center of the spindle to the ways, then it is a 12" swing.
> Aren't the tailstock ways in good condition?


Pardon my ignorance...

So are the tailstock ways the part of the flat ways that are in the middle?  I.e. point "A" in my initial photos?    If so, then perhaps they are OK, or at least in much better condition.  



I made the above crude diagram.  I guess, then, that the tailstock ways are comprised of parts D, E, F.  And those should be in relatively better shape?

So how does one use that to restore parts A, B, C?

Thanks
Kevin


----------



## kdtop (Mar 29, 2021)

WCraig said:


> Fixing wear in a lathe is a costly process--generally considered not justified for a common machine like an Atlas.  In a nutshell, you would have to totally disassemble the lathe and send the bed out to be reground.  The grinding process isn't straight-forward as the bed has to be carefully dialed in and supported so as not to end up with a banana!  It may not be easy to find a shop with the capacity for such a job that is willing to take on a one-shot like this.  Quite likely to be _very_ costly.  OTOH, maybe you already have a good buddy with a high-end machine shop?
> 
> Probably, the saddle needs to be reground (or scraped) as there is likely more wear on the operator side.  Turcite would then be applied to the saddle and tailstock to 'replace' the material ground away.  The Turcite needs to be scraped in to get good contact on all surfaces.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply.  You are right, of course.  I should just spend about $2000, get a good lathe, and be done with it.    But for now, I am trying to keep the cost of my hobby constrained.  So I will spend far more than that amount in time!  

Kevin


----------



## kdtop (Mar 29, 2021)

macardoso said:


> We have a commercial forum sponsor who does lathe bed grinding. I think someone has already sent in a lathe and found the cost to be reasonable enough.



Do you have more details?  I just looked at the commercial forums, and I see only Richard King.  I thought his business was teaching scraping.  Does he also do ways repairs?  Or is it someone else?

Thanks
Kevin


----------



## tq60 (Mar 29, 2021)

Some of the early craftsman lathes are bi-ended...

Remove everything from the bed and look at turning it around.

You may need to some "clever" work but it reverses the wear surfaces and is free.

Meanwhile the hunt for next one continues.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## mattthemuppet2 (Mar 30, 2021)

I would just work as best as you can with the lathe you have, use it to learn on and keep your eyes open for something better. Really, that kind of reconditioning is not trivial for someone with a good feel for lathe geometry and the means to measure/ check alignment on multiple planes. Being out a bunch of money and time for a lathe that struggles to justify it would be the good outcome, doing the same and having a worse outcome is a strong possibility.


----------



## WCraig (Mar 30, 2021)

kdtop said:


> Do you have more details?  I just looked at the commercial forums, and I see only Richard King.  I thought his business was teaching scraping.  Does he also do ways repairs?  Or is it someone else?
> 
> Thanks
> Kevin











						P&B Grinding and Machine,  a job shop serving Northeast Ohio
					

P&B Grinding and Machine Inc. in Garrettsville, Ohio, A job shop that manufactures top quality made to order products.  Specializing in surface grinding and machining has a team with nearly 70 years of experience in our field




					www.pbgrinding.com


----------



## macardoso (Mar 30, 2021)

kdtop said:


> Do you have more details?  I just looked at the commercial forums, and I see only Richard King.  I thought his business was teaching scraping.  Does he also do ways repairs?  Or is it someone else?
> 
> Thanks
> Kevin











						Welcome to new H-M Commercial member P&B Grinding!
					

Please take a moment to welcome new member Bill aka @P&B GRINDING! Bill operates P&B Grinding and Machine out of Garrettsville, Ohio and is excited to be a commercial sponsor of Hobby Machinist. We are excited to have a shop sponsor on the forum and looking forward to having his expertise here...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




"We generally charge a starting price of $400 for a small Lathe bed (48 to 52", not including the saddle or tail stock)) the cost will only go up due to unusual wear (Over .015),"


----------



## Janderso (Mar 30, 2021)

Kdtop,
Benmychree advised finding a more sophisticated lathe.
The old Atlas lathes were made for us hobby guys. If the accuracy is no longer adequate, It may be time to update.
I'd sure hate to see you spend good money on that old Atlas. At the end of the day after the investment, you still have your Atlas 
This is of course my opinion. There may be some attributes to the lathe I am not aware of.


----------



## kdtop (Mar 30, 2021)

tq60 said:


> Some of the early craftsman lathes are bi-ended...
> 
> Remove everything from the bed and look at turning it around.
> 
> ...


This swap idea is a great idea.  I'm going to seriously consider this......   Though as I think about it, the lead screw and advancement rack gear would have to be swapped etc, and that might be tricky....


----------



## Janderso (Mar 30, 2021)

kdtop said:


> This swap idea is a great idea.  I'm going to seriously consider this......   Though as I think about it, the lead screw and advancement rack gear would have to be swapped etc, and that might be tricky....


I considered sending out my old 13" South Bend lathe bed to a place down in the SF Bay area. It was going to be expensive.
I justified it in my mind because I learned on a 13" South Bend in High School, I used one in Haiti in the early 80's, then I bought one in 2017.
I'm glad I didn't do it, I lost it in the fire.
My newer more modern lathe is so much better!!


----------



## kdtop (Mar 30, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I considered sending out my old 13" South Bend lathe bed to a place down in the SF Bay area. It was going to be expensive.
> I justified it in my mind because I learned on a 13" South Bend in High School, I used one in Haiti in the early 80's, then I bought one in 2017.
> I'm glad I didn't do it, I lost it in the fire.
> My newer more modern lathe is so much better!!


 
Gosh, all it needed was a coat of paint!1  (Just kidding).  Sorry to hear about your loss, though it sounds like you had a happy ending.


----------



## Superburban (Mar 30, 2021)

There is a lot one can still do with a clapped out lathe, especially for a newbee. Think of all the stuff we do that we barely move the saddle over 4 or 5 inches. Facing operations, and anything done with the compound is not affected by the bed ways condition.


----------



## ericc (Mar 31, 2021)

When the carriage drops far enough so the hand wheel gear no longer engages the rack, the lathe cannot do simple turning operations.  That brass shim is an interesting idea.  At least it will restore some functionality.  There must be something one can do to make things work a little bit.  It seems like all-or-nothing is the only way, and it is clear that a professional regrind will exceed the value of the lathe.  I've told this story before.  I visited a shop where there was a really clapped out Atlas lathe.  It had grinding dust all over it.  The guy working there said that it was still useful for toolpost grinding and polishing.  It still had a lot of life in it.

Machine rebuilding is not my expertise.  But I do know something about trip hammers.  When they get sloppy due to wear in the ram guide, the ram will wobble and you will draw trapezoidal.  This is a real bummer, since you have to do all kinds of correction to the work, and it's hot.  To fix this, you unbolt the ram and pull out some shims.  When all the shims are gone, the hammer is thrashed.  You then pull out the ram guide and give it and the ram a touch up with an angle grinder.  Careful.  At this point you can do a lot of damage, but the hammer is already thrashed.  Then, braze in or screw in some plates on the ram guide to build it up, and put the shim pack back in.  You did save those shims, didn't you?


----------



## pacifica (Mar 31, 2021)

kdtop said:


> This swap idea is a great idea.  I'm going to seriously consider this......   Though as I think about it, the lead screw and advancement rack gear would have to be swapped etc, and that might be tricky....


Appears there are  used  beds available also for that size. If you have a way of checking the ways.


----------



## Richard King 2 (Apr 4, 2021)

Adam Booth down in Florida has a 36" shaper and Keith Rucker in Georgia has a planner he rebuilt that can plane the bed.  They may do it for free and record it for their You Tube Channels.   There is a professional rebuilder in Tullahoma TN that grinds beds too. www.schmiedecorp.com

I have also scraped Atlas beds.  It is possible and if you want to learn how, I teach scraping.  I taught people in the UK over the internet, so if you have the patience and time I can help you.  It is so much simpler if you have a 36" Granite surface plate though.  If you want to contact my friends Adam (abom78) Booth or Keith (VintageMachinery.org)  PM me or email me at Richard@Handscraping.com and I can forward your email to them.  Both Adam and Keith are my students too.  

The pictures below were taken at a class I taught at Kieths and he did several You Tube shows on my classes I taught there.. 



.   My students and You Tubers  Lance Balzley, John Sanders (NYC CNC), Tom Utley, and Adam Booth.   You can see many You Tube shows by searching "Richard King Scraping" on You Tube.  Here is another students You tube show grinding Myford flat bed lathe beds.  



  There is all sorts of info on scraping and rebuilding on You tube under my name.   Rich


----------



## Braeden P (Apr 5, 2021)

I had a wood lathe bed planed a few weeks ago it had hard spots but we get past them bluing it up it is really flat so scraping it is easy this is totally overkill for a wood lathe but I need practice! A 1919 planer that is worn is still really accurate quite amazing.


----------



## kdtop (Apr 5, 2021)

Richard King 2 said:


> Adam Booth down in Florida has a 36" shaper and Keith Rucker in Georgia has a planner he rebuilt that can plane the bed.  They may do it for free and record it for their You Tube Channels.   There is a professional rebuilder in Tullahoma TN that grinds beds too. www.schmiedecorp.com
> 
> I have also scraped Atlas beds.  It is possible and if you want to learn how, I teach scraping.  I taught people in the UK over the internet, so if you have the patience and time I can help you.  It is so much simpler if you have a 36" Granite surface plate though.  If you want to contact my friends Adam (abom78) Booth or Keith (VintageMachinery.org)  PM me or email me at Richard@Handscraping.com and I can forward your email to them.  Both Adam and Keith are my students too.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this helpful information.  I will keep all this in mind.  I plan on taking one of your classes one of these days.  You have a superb reputation and it would be fantastic to learn from you!

Kevin T


----------



## Mikhy87 (Aug 31, 2021)

The metal on most older machines is far better than anything from China. You can buy hand plating (chrome)Kit's off eBay. You could build up the low spots. You have to get one with a wand to apply the plating. Just dip in your plating solution and rub the wand on the low spot. MSC also has a plating pin that puts a hard surface on cutting tools.


----------

