# Pm-25mv z-axis travel



## DavidR8 (Feb 13, 2020)

I’m hoping someone with a PM-25MV mill will do me a favour and measure the total available travel of the head not including spindle travel. 
Thanks!


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I’m hoping someone with a PM-25MV mill will do me a favour and measure the total available travel of the head not including spindle travel.
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I will do it first thing tomorrow morning. It is going to be very close to 13 inches.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 14, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I will do it first thing tomorrow morning. It is going to be very close to 13 inches.



Thanks Erik!


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

I took out the collet & cranked ‘er down all the way. I will show pictures of it:


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## DavidR8 (Feb 14, 2020)

Thanks Erik, is that 13" of travel for the head?


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

The scale shows this. I am calling this 10 1/32”.


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Thanks Erik, is that 13" of travel for the head?



I am still getting to the result...


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

So now I cranked it higher than I should have (past the zero). Here it is cranked up that high


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

The scale shows this. This is -3/32”.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 14, 2020)

So is it safe to say it's 10 1/8" total travel for the head?


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

So that was 10 1/8”. Now lets’s see what the DRO says.

The DRO says 10.22323” of z-axis travel.


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

It looks like the answer is indeed just over 10.125”.


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

Second run here: this is the DRO reading at the bottom:


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## DavidR8 (Feb 14, 2020)

Many thanks, I'm looking at a similar machine and it's head travel spec was 11".
So I was trying to figure out how the PM-25MV was 13" and the I'm looking at is only 11"
I think that PM adds the 2" of spindle travel to the head and gets ~ 13"


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

And at the top:


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## erikmannie (Feb 14, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Many thanks, I'm looking at a similar machine and it's head travel spec was 11".
> So I was trying to figure out how the PM-25MV was 13" and the I'm looking at is only 11"
> I think that PM adds the 2" of spindle travel to the head and gets ~ 13"



If you look at the picture of the head all the way down, moving the spindle down at that point seems to me would put you in a situation where you would not be able to have room for a cutting tool in there at that point.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 14, 2020)

A


erikmannie said:


> If you look at the picture of the head all the way down, moving the spindle down at that point seems to me would put you in a situation where you would not be able to have room for a cutting tool in there at that point.


Absolutely agree with you. Though that gap would make up the difference between the advertised 13" of Z travel and the measured ~10" of head travel.
Thanks Erik, I really appreciate your excellent photos!


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## higgite (Feb 14, 2020)

The description on PM’s website says:
Max Distance Spindle to Table 13”
Spindle Travel 2”

However, the specifications in the manual say:
Spindle nose to table 2 in. min, 12 in. max
Quill travel 2 in
That infers 10” of head travel + 2” of quill extension.

Based on Erik’s data and pics, it appears that the web page description is incorrect and the manual is correct.

Tom


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## mikey (Feb 14, 2020)

10" is not a lot of room on a milling machine. With the vise and tooling in there, things are going to be tight! My Sherline mill has about 14" of space under the spindle and I can just get my little 4" rotary table and a Blake Co-axial indicator in there; these tools wouldn't fit on a PM 25.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 14, 2020)

I’m glad I asked the question 


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## higgite (Feb 14, 2020)

mikey said:


> 10" is not a lot of room on a milling machine. With the vise and tooling in there, things are going to be tight! My Sherline mill has about 14" of space under the spindle and I can just get my little 4" rotary table and a Blake Co-axial indicator in there; these tools wouldn't fit on a PM 25.


Mike,
I see your point about room for RTs, tools and such, but I might respectfully point out that David’s mill has 12” max  from spindle to table. The head only moves 10”. But even with 12” clearance, I can see how an RT with a chuck on top and a work piece mounted might limit tool space.

FWIW, the spindle to table clearance (to nearest 0.1”) on my LMS 5500 (Sieg SX2.7) is 12.3” max and 0.6” min with the quill drawn up in the “home” position, not extended. I actually didn’t know it would get that low to the table until I tried it just now. I’m not sure how practical that is, but I know now that if I ever need to use it as a panini press, it’s up to the task.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the head travel measures 11.7” top to bottom (vs 11.6” advertised). Quill travel is 2.8” (as advertised).

Tom


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## mikey (Feb 14, 2020)

I understand that the PM 25 has 12" of room from the spindle to the table and 10" of spindle travel. It is still not a lot of room once you add the vise or rotab or dividing head, then add the drill chuck/ER chuck/flycutter/etc. The further away from the base of the column you are forced to work at the less stable the head/spindle/tool is. 

I am in no way dissing the PM 25 or any other mill. I just wanted to make David aware of the work envelope thing because he will need to contend with that, as all of us do.


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## Chewy (Feb 14, 2020)

David, when I looked at the spec's a couple of years ago, I moved up to the PM 30.  It has a couple of inches more Z, but more important, it has 3" quill travel vs 2" with the PM 25. It may not seem like much, but when you start switching operations, that extra inch helps  by decreasing the Z hand cranking. If you get the drill chuck that Matt sells, it will eat up the real estate in a hurry. Either way, they are both good machines and you will proabaly be happy with them.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 14, 2020)

Thanks all. 
What I was attempting to reconcile was the PM-25MV specs against another 25 class machine. 
Specs on the latter are 11”’ of z-axis travel plus 2” of spindle travel. 
That roughly aligns with the measurements @ErichKeane provided. 


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## higgite (Feb 14, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Thanks all.
> What I was attempting to reconcile was the PM-25MV specs against another 25 class machine.
> Specs on the latter are 11”’ of z-axis travel plus 2” of spindle travel.
> That roughly aligns with the measurements @ErichKeane provided.
> ...


David, what are the comparative maximum spindle to table distances (let's call it headroom for brevity) of the two machines that you're comparing? As Mike pointed out, regardless of how far the head will travel up and down, you have to have enough headroom to set up your work and still have room for drill chucks and bits, fly cutters, RTs, etc. Z-axis travel doesn't necessarily translate to headroom. For instance, the PM-25MV has 10" of travel and 12" of max headroom. My mill has 2.3" more travel than the PM machine  but actually has 0.3" less max headroom.

Tom


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## DavidR8 (Feb 15, 2020)

higgite said:


> David, what are the comparative maximum spindle to table distances (let's call it headroom for brevity) of the two machines that you're comparing? As Mike pointed out, regardless of how far the head will travel up and down, you have to have enough headroom to set up your work and still have room for drill chucks and bits, fly cutters, RTs, etc. Z-axis travel doesn't necessarily translate to headroom. For instance, the PM-25MV has 10" of travel and 12" of max headroom. My mill has 2.3" more travel than the PM machine but actually has 0.3" less max headroom.
> 
> Tom



Thanks Tom, in fact all except for the RF 30 and 40 I’m also considering show 13” of headroom above the table. 

The RF 30 shows 18 7/8” headroom. 

RF-40 I’m looking at has similar headroom 


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## erikmannie (Feb 15, 2020)

I am surprised that somebody hasn't come out with low profile milling vises (shipped with *no* swivel base!).

It seems like every inch of vertical real estate has a lot of value. This is why we all have swivel bases that we are not using taking up space.

Probably one reason that the Bridgeport knee mills were so popular is that they offer a whopping 16" of knee and 5" of quill travel: https://www.worldwidemachinetool.com/product/new-bridgeport-mill/ Man, those are crazy expensive!


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## higgite (Feb 16, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I am surprised that somebody hasn't come out with low profile milling vises (shipped with *no* swivel base!).


Just to name a few with no swivel base:





						Home
					






					www.kurtworkholding.com
				








						Glacern Machine Tools - CNC Machine Vises
					

Glacern Machine Tools manufacturers CNC Machine Vises, Precision Tool Holders, and Indexable Milling Cutters for vertical and horizontal cnc milling machines.




					glacern.com
				








						30553-SET - 5 in. Machinist Vise
					

The 5 in. (127 mm) Machinist Vise is a sturdy CNC vise that provides a rigid backstop and prevents lifting of jaws when tightened




					www.tormach.com
				











						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				



https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1879&category=1963256912 (available with or without swivel base)

Tom


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## darkzero (Feb 16, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I am surprised that somebody hasn't come out with low profile milling vises (shipped with *no* swivel base!).
> 
> It seems like every inch of vertical real estate has a lot of value. This is why we all have swivel bases that we are not using taking up space.
> 
> Probably one reason that the Bridgeport knee mills were so popular is that they offer a whopping 16" of knee and 5" of quill travel: https://www.worldwidemachinetool.com/product/new-bridgeport-mill/ Man, those are crazy expensive!



Many milling vises don't include a swivel base, they are usually an optional purchase. I don't even own a swivel base. Ok well I do, the 4" vise that came with my mill has a swivel base but that vise has just been sitting in a box in the corner since I got it.

Kurt/angle lock style & CNC style vises aren't really that tall considering the leadscrew & angle lock feature. Need some mass on the vise for rigidity otherwise they will flex. Can always use a drill press vise but they may not hold parts well for heavy milling.

There's also toolmaker's/screwless/grinding vises that are pretty low profile.

But if you need something very low profile, you can make or buy one of these. But these won't supply nearly the same amount of clamping pressure as a Kurt style vise. Have to be careful not to over stress the t-slots on the table.







There are other hobby mills available with more capacity. My PM45 is a bench top class RF-45 style mill/drill that has like 17" spindle to table distance, 15" head travel, & 5" quill travel. Well something like that, I forget, but I have yet to run out of Z distance on the stuff I work on. Plenty of options out there if a knee mill isn't feasible.


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## erikmannie (Feb 16, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Many milling vises don't include a swivel base, they are usually an optional purchase. I don't even own a swivel base. Ok well I do, the 4" vise that came with my mill has a swivel base but that vise has just been sitting in a box in the corner since I got it.
> 
> Kurt/angle lock style & CNC style vises aren't really that tall considering the leadscrew & angle lock feature. Need some mass on the vise for rigidity otherwise they will flex. Can always use a drill press vise but they may not hold parts well for heavy milling.
> 
> ...



I have never seen any setup as shown in the photo. I would be afraid that I would scratch my table if I used that.


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## higgite (Feb 16, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I have never seen any setup as shown in the photo. I would be afraid that I would scratch my table if I used that.


1-2-3 blocks make handy risers to get work up off the table. Or scrap material.

Tom


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## darkzero (Feb 16, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I have never seen any setup as shown in the photo. I would be afraid that I would scratch my table if I used that.



Commercial ones are not uncommon. Maybe in a hobby shop. They're used for large capacity work holding rather than the lower profile. They wouldn't scratch the table anymore than installing a more conventional vise.


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## rwm (Feb 17, 2020)

What's up with this???
https://www.worldwidemachinetool.com/product/new-bridgeport-mill/ 
Who is making Bridgeport now? Did someone just buy the name? Are these as god as the original? 
Robert


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## shooter123456 (Feb 17, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I am surprised that somebody hasn't come out with low profile milling vises (shipped with *no* swivel base!).


The modvise from SMW might be exactly what you are thinking of.  It would be hard to get much lower profile than those.


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## erikmannie (Feb 17, 2020)

rwm said:


> What's up with this???
> https://www.worldwidemachinetool.com/product/new-bridgeport-mill/
> Who is making Bridgeport now? Did someone just buy the name? Are these as god as the original?
> Robert


This is just one supplier of the new Bridgeports. You can definitely buy a new Bridgeport. I heard that the parts are manufactured in Italy.

Here is another:








						Bridgeport Series I Milling Machine
					

Offering a huge selection of industrial tool sales online. Find over 100,000 metalworking products, precision measuring tools, power tools & accessories.




					www.penntoolco.com
				




And another: https://www.sterlingmachinery.com/b...series-standard-vertical-milling-machine.html

Hardinge bought the rights to this and other Bridgeport products: https://www.hardinge.com/product-brand/bridgeport/


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## erikmannie (Feb 17, 2020)

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but this is a fun read right here: https://www.hardinge.com/wp-content/uploads/KneeMill-Complete-Manual.pdf


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