# Selling the initial investment.....



## starr256 (May 10, 2018)

With all hobbies, aspiring hobbyists have had the conversation with a significant other where the tension gets above normal with the question "You want to spend how much? And what are you going to make with this dohicky?". I was wondering what novel answers have been proffered to the later question, since we all know that the honest answer to the first to be "A lot."


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## RandyM (May 10, 2018)

The problem with that question is it stacked against you. I have found that the only and best answer is to buy it and then show them how useful it is to repair or make things for them. It is no different than any other tool in your shop. Anything you say at this point is only going to be met with skepticism. Also, you'll find that once you have the machine you'll find things to use it for you had no way of knowing until it is sitting in your shop. Best of luck on your quest.


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## fradish (May 10, 2018)

I'm lucky that my wife and I are supportive of each other's hobbies, but someone once gave me a hard time
about how I could justify the equipment I have bought.  Like I have to make an economic case for why I have machines
that I like to use for my hobby.  This same guy thinks nothing of spending money playing golf, which, unless you're
winning tournaments, isn't providing any return on investment...


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## David S (May 10, 2018)

I have been very lucky that my wife liked boats i.e. cabin cruisers as much as I did so over the first years of our life we spent all summer on our small cruiser.  As we aged we discussed motor homes.  Wow she was all for it, so we are now on our 3rd Class A and she loves every second of it, as do I.  So-o-o-o when I contemplate buying a hobby tool she actually encourages me if I am hesitant, and of course I encourage her hobbies.

I guess what I am saying is that we (I) have invested so much in her and collectively our outdoor summer enjoyment that it pales in comparison to any tools or equipment I could buy for my hobby.

As they say "a Happy Wife is a Happy Life".  In our case so true.

David


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## derf (May 10, 2018)

It's easier to beg for forgiveness than to get permission. Beside honing your machining skills, you must also work on your "wordsmith" skills. For example: never refer to this pastime as a "hobby", that sounds expensive and frivolous. Always refer to this as an "occupation"....it sounds more important and meaningful. Besides that, it will keep you occupied and out of her hair. At some time you will have to justify some expense, so when she asks "Why do you need that?"  You just say, "Because I don't have one...."


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## Shootymacshootface (May 10, 2018)

To free up some cash you could sell something that is seldom used, and leave her out of it.


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## FOMOGO (May 10, 2018)

We both just buy what we want. Neither of us are big spenders, and she realizes how much I do, and save us financially by doing virtually everything myself, that most people pay someone big $ to do.   Mike


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## ttabbal (May 10, 2018)

That can be a tough one. It helps me that my kids are old enough to learn and so she gets to see them excited about making things with me on the lathe. So when a mill came up locally it was a bit easier to sell her on it. 

Our sister in law recently got a classic Mustang, though I don't know the exact vintage. She was skeptical until her husband mentioned that it could be used to make parts for her car that are difficult to find. Then she was all for it.


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## Bobby Bailey (May 10, 2018)

We have always supported each others hobbies so, not a problem.


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## dtsh (May 10, 2018)

I keep books on all my expenses and hobbies are no exception; it's the best way for me to keep tabs on my spending and to remember what was spent on an item in the past. I budget a monthly allowance for hobbies, same as we do for food, mortgage, utilities, etc. All hobby expenses wait until funds are available in my "hobby account" and that gets divided up among all my hobbies. A big purchase for one hobby robs the others and as a result I'm sometimes squeezed for resources, but it does help cut down on frivilous expenses and encourages me to make purchases which are useful for multiple hobbies. Since the money in my hobby account is intended as disposable income, I don't need to justify expenses to anyone but myself.

Sometimes purchases of tooling comes from other accounts, such as the homestead account or automotive accounts, when the purchase of tooling allows a repair for less than it would cost when the job is contracted out. Frequently automotive tools, woodworking tools, etc fall in this category. If it's cheaper to let someone else do it, I let them, but it rarely is.

It's worked well for my household and as a bonus, I can query my accounts for data and trends going back years. I'm sure it sounds like a complex mess, but once it's an established habit, it takes litterally only minutes every month to keep the books current.


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## tcarrington (May 10, 2018)

be sure to fix a curtain rod or maybe her car. Make a doo-hickey to hold something she really likes. Perhaps a small item in the shadow box would work. drill a tiny hole in something that she wants on a chain. you can also apply this to one of the kids or her best friend. I am not saying lie, but if you fix the faucet, regardless of whether the mill or lathe or any other power tool was involved, point out you saved a plumber visit. Make sure the gate that goes where ever works, all the time.


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## bhigdog (May 10, 2018)

We both have always been frugal and hard working. We built our house ourselves and almost everything is still a DIY type of deal. So now when we are older and all the money we saved by our labors has been invested wisely that conversation never arises. When I bought my 14" shaper she was happy to help get it on the trailer. When she needed (wanted) a new stable for her horses I helped her design it.
Like it was said above mutual support is the key................Bob


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## FanMan (May 10, 2018)

When I bought my mill my wife asked me what I was going to make with it.  I answered, "Anything I want to."


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## PHPaul (May 10, 2018)

The wife and I have a system that avoids (most) problems in that vein.

We have "our" money which is my retirement, my SS and her SS.  That is strictly budgeted and pays all the usual bills, insurance, utilities, groceries etc. plus funding some savings, emergency cash and the IRA.

She has "her" money which comes from the room and board that her brother pays us, selling eggs and other "pin money" sources.

I have "my" money which comes from the odd jobs I pick up working with my tractor, repairing small engines and yard equipment and small welding/fabrication jobs.

Anything I buy with "my" money doesn't require permission or explanations.  "Because I wanted it" is entirely adequate.  That's why there was a several month lag between deciding I wanted a mill and actually getting it:  I had to save up enough odd-job money to cover it.

Major purchases that will require loan payments are thoroughly discussed and approved in advance like any partnership.


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## RobertHaas (May 10, 2018)

My biggest fear is when I die my wife sells everything for what I told her I paid for it


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## MrWhoopee (May 10, 2018)

My wife figures it's money well spent because it keeps me out in the garage, "where a man belongs".


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## RJSakowski (May 10, 2018)

When I was growing up, my Dad fished and hunted and my Mom grew a garden.  Back then, my Dad was making $2.50 an hour as a cabinet maker and my Mom was a stay-at-home mom raising four kids.  The fish, game, and produce ensured that we always had food on the table. 

2018:  My wife has a quarter acre garden, working most days through the summer.   Although she provide produce for our table and donates over a thousand pounds of produce to local food pantries, there is no way that she can justify all the expenses entailed from an economic stance.  I like to go fishing and provide enough fish for at least a meal each week throughout the year with some excess going to neighbors.  But no way can I justify the hobby from an economic standpoint.  

I had a fairly large collection of tools and machines purchased when I had my own business and when a company that I was partner in was sold, I bought myself my Tormach and a seat of SolidWorks.  A few years later, when I retired, I bought a G0602 lathe.  If I looked at the investments that I have made in my shop, I would find it hard to justify them on an economic basis.

The point of all of these is that while it isn't justifiable economically, there is a sense of accomplishment, of satisfaction, and of general well being that is priceless.


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## rwm (May 10, 2018)

I got married relatively late in life by today's standards. My hobby was already going when I met my wife. She was very impressed and wanted to support it. So far the amount of money I have spent on this hobby is probably less than one semi expensive sports car. Plenty of people have blown cash on that!
Robert


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## Redmech (May 10, 2018)

If she ever asks how often will you use that? 

The correct response is every time I need it, not once every 5 years.


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## PHPaul (May 11, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> *The point of all of these is that while it isn't justifiable economically, *there is a sense of accomplishment, of satisfaction, and of general well being that is priceless.



No, it's not. 

But, as others have pointed out, there IS (or at least can be...) some payback.  My lathe cost less than a decent set of golf clubs.  The only thing I can make with golf clubs is divots. 

I 'm only partly joking when I tell folks, it keeps me out of the bars and off the streets...


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## Cadillac (May 11, 2018)

First thing is we both work and make decent money. I have mine she has hers and we have a joint account. I was deep into my hobbying way before I got married. Ive always fixed all my own stuff,made most of my stuff if capable. Tools make you capable to do a professional job. I make her anything she asks for. I fix everything her and my son break except for them dam little plastic toys. Garbage! Would have to reengineer the whole thing.
The more tools and tooling I buy the less stuff we buy because I usually make it. Gotta impress her with your new stuff!


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## RJSakowski (May 11, 2018)

PHPaul said:


> No, it's not.
> 
> But, as others have pointed out, there IS (or at least can be...) some payback.  My lathe cost less than a decent set of golf clubs.  The only thing I can make with golf clubs is divots.
> 
> I 'm only partly joking when I tell folks, it keeps me out of the bars and off the streets...


No doubt if one plans to make a business of it,  purchasing tools and machinery can be very profitable.  I know of  number of instances where large machinery expenditures have had an ROI of less than a a year. When I had my business, I could and did justify the expenditures based on ROI.

The issue is there are many hobby machinists who never intend or never will sell the product of their machines.    I am retired and have no interest in rejoining the work force.  I will take on jobs for friends and neighbors but not for pay.  My typical comment was " if I charged you what it was worth, you couldn't afford it; pay it forward to someone else".  

Over the years, I have made many custom items which, along with repair jobs, would have made a significant dent in my investment cost.  If had to justify the costs based on payback, I couldn't.  I am fortunate in that I am not budget constrained nor does my wife question my purchases but a question I ask myself for each and every one is what is the cost benefit ratio. Were it not for the enjoyment factor, I would probably forget the shop and watch TV from my recliner.

I realize that every situation is different and for someone on a tight household budget and who has the drive to derive some income from the use of their machines, I say go for it.  It can be an excellent way to supplement a fixed income. There have been countless examples of thriving businesses that have started out in a garage or basement.


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## Firestopper (May 11, 2018)

Our shops provide us with hours of learning and the ability to repair virtually anything worth fixing. Over the years I have proven this to my wife of 30 years. Keep it practical use them often (machines),and take care of your investment.  In the end, our shops give us purpose, balanced with other wonderful things life has to offer. 

Paco


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## jdedmon91 (May 11, 2018)

My shop was from day one a retirement project. That’s why I purchased the machines and big ticket tooling along. So now I hit buy stuff for enhancements and projects. Also to make some YouTube videos. Since my channel isn’t as large as the big guys it’s just another hobby. 

I never been a woodworker so machining things is a hobby to me. One day after I get some of the backlog projects whittled down. I may try my hand at a model steam engine. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Charles Spencer (May 11, 2018)

PHPaul said:


> I 'm only partly joking when I tell folks, it keeps me out of the bars and off the streets...



Ha!  I always say it keeps me off the street corners.

Before I retired I bought various woodworking machines and tools for work on the house.  They easily paid for themselves and my wife knew it.  Right after I retired I saw a Craigslist ad for a nicely restored South Bend 9C at a reasonable price.  I bought it.  Then I started seeing machines in various states of repair on Craigslist for short money.  I bought and restored some and sold them.  Some I parted out.  Some I kept for me.  The profits from selling machines and parts bought most of my tooling.  On occasion I would take some of those profits and take the wife out to dinner or we'd go some place for the weekend.  I always made sure to let her know where the money came from.  One restored lathe paid our state taxes last year.  So she may say "That looks like a filthy piece of junk", but she doesn't mind because I keep busy and happy and she got a little something out of it too.  Unfortunately, now I have most of the machines I've wanted and I've run out of space to work on or store any more machines.


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## Janderso (May 11, 2018)

For me, the "initial investment", was easy. She asked what a lathe was. I told her it makes metal stuff round. She said, go ahead you never spend any money on yourself. The Bridgeport, saws, and stuff was another story.
The way I look at it, if i look back at the hundreds of thousands of dollars we spent on cars and trucks over the past 3 decades, a $15,000 shop investment is not a big deal.
A funny thing has happened. I use to read every waking moment I could. I haven't picked up a book other than machinists related reading since I bought the lathe, mill, TIG, press, drill press, ........ I also feel more rested and have more energy.
I really believe rekindling my interest in machinery/tooling has helped my unknown to me depression.
I am happy.
We are going to Mexico for two weeks beginning next week. All i regret is the time away from the shop. I'll get over it, when I get back I will have my Jet vertical saw and a "Certiflat" welding table to put together. 
Great thread and I enjoy reading about the relationships between our wives/husbands.


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## MrWhoopee (May 11, 2018)

Cadillac said:


> I have mine she has hers and we have a joint account.



This is the key. No arguing, pleading or guilt. However, I DO NOT recommend trying to convert an existing arrangement, it will end badly. When starting out fresh, keep 'em separated.


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## MrWhoopee (May 11, 2018)

Janderso said:


> A funny thing has happened. I use to read every waking moment I could. I haven't picked up a book other than machinists related reading since I bought the lathe, mill, TIG, press, drill press, ........ I also feel more rested and have more energy.
> I really believe rekindling my interest in machinery/tooling has helped my unknown to me depression.
> I am happy.
> We are going to Mexico for two weeks beginning next week. All i regret is the time away from the shop. I'll get over it, when I get back I will have my Jet vertical saw and a "Certiflat" welding table to put together.



Sounds a lot like me. Be careful though, you may find your elevated mood is attached to the acquisition of tooling more than its use. NEW TOYS!


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## Mitch Alsup (May 11, 2018)

While my wife is generally supportive of my endeavors::

I have maintained my own slush fund since we got together (30-odd years ago). 
Within that fund, I get to do what I want and don't need even the hint of permission.
With luck, this fund is going to last another 18 years (or so) by the time I will be 85-ish and probably not so needy of machine tools.


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## Janderso (May 11, 2018)

Mr. Whoopee, I have considered what you said about the New Toy High. I also really enjoy heading out to the shop with a project. That project could be making a bracket for the VFD or rewiring the old saw. I just love working with my hands and equipment, creating, repairing or fabricating. I find it very fulfilling. I get the same feeling today I felt when I was back in shop class in the early 70's. One exception though, I am not pre-occupied by the girls.
A Shop Fund, I have been putting money away for 30 years for retirement. I have a Roth a 401K and some investments. My wife inherited some money, we have rental property and I have some inheritance.
I am truly blessed to be able to put $20,000 aside for my shop fund. If I really enjoy it, I may sell one of the more pricey machines and go with a more modern mill for example with servos and a DRO package. We will see how it goes.


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## Janderso (May 11, 2018)

firestopper said:


> Our shops provide us with hours of learning and the ability to repair virtually anything worth fixing. Over the years I have proven this to my wife of 30 years. Keep it practical use them often (machines),and take care of your investment.  In the end, our shops give us purpose, balanced with other wonderful things life has to offer.
> 
> Paco


Is that shop air conditioned? I am very familiar with Tucson heat.


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## TerryH (May 11, 2018)

We have full disclosure at my house. Plus there will be no deals when I'm dead. lol...


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## MarkDavis (May 11, 2018)

The new machine is much cheaper than spending your time at the bar drinking tequila.


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## PHPaul (May 11, 2018)

MrWhoopee said:


> Sounds a lot like me. Be careful though, you may find your elevated mood is attached to the acquisition of tooling more than its use. NEW TOYS!



This is very true.  I have to be REALLY aware of that when the urge for a new toy surfaces.  I've had a few that I decided I wanted, pulled the trigger, ran around squealing like a 10 year old girl at a pajama party while breathlessly awaiting their arrival, got 'em, fondled 'em, put 'em away and didn't touch them again for months.

The Good News is, when I decided it was time to replace my 28 year old tractor, I sold a bunch of stuff I hadn't used in months or years and came up with $15K for a down payment on a new one.  That made the whole concept MUCH easier to sell to the Chief Financial Officer...


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## Firestopper (May 11, 2018)

Janderso said:


> Is that shop air conditioned? I am very familiar with Tucson heat.



No A/C just R30 and a dual wet section 12K cfm "Swampzilla". With the dry heat I get 30º pulldown most of the time.

Paco


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## Asm109 (May 11, 2018)

Just tell her machining is a much better deal for all than a mistress.  At least she will know where you are.


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## starr256 (May 12, 2018)

Reading these responses, I ponder the demographics. This, of course, could part of a research project done by the reputable authority using a survey conducted by a contract research firm using robo calls. Jesting aside, I find two general groupings of responses to my query. One can be characterized by  "I'll do what I want, thank you very much." The other by "Go for it, love." Is this indicative of the generation divide of the hobby? If that is not a provocative question, not sure would be, aside from political musings.


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## T Bredehoft (May 12, 2018)

Return on investment?  Every time I use one of my machines, I get some return on the investment. The pleasure of being able to fabricate or repair something has value. 

In another persona I've spent years buying antique and art glass that I enjoyed owning. I imagine I spent near retail for some of the pieces in my collection. I do not intend to sell any of this stuff, I'd probably loose money on it. But the pleasure of admiring the work that went into it has value, too. 
When my kids sell it I won't know how much they made or lost on my investment, I won'k care. 

I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't expect to reap a profit on something we bought to get pleasure from. If I'd invested in stocks and bonds, I'd have expected profit, not in machines or my pretty glass.


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## Cadillac (May 12, 2018)

A lot depends on the person. My life since a child was building and repairing stuff. So tools are aids to help me do more and more as I evolve. 
 As a teen all I got for birthdays and holidays were tools. Everyone chuckled because I would get a 7 1/2 table saw for my 13th b-day or even now I’ll have parallels or gauge blocks on a Christmas list. When I get siblings ask what is it. I just say garage stuff or tools  
 I have a 5yr old boy that is exactly as I was. In the garage as much as he can. Loves tools and wants to be apart of everything I do. So now my initial investment is and will be for my sons inheritance. When I pass he will instantly have a full wood shop,welders,and near full machine shop with every toll and cutter I e acquired. The challenge will be teaching him everything dad knows and the value of what he see’s as normal. 
 I’ve wasted more money on cars and toys that don’t hold near the value of quality machines and tooling. Buy the good stuff and it’s still worth more and sellable than some of  the best junk stuff too.


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## MrWhoopee (May 13, 2018)

MarkDavis said:


> The new machine is much cheaper than spending your time at the bar drinking tequila.


It's not so much the cost of the tequila as it is the associated expenses.  Bail, attorney's fees, fines, insurance and child support.


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## westerner (May 14, 2018)

FOMOGO said:


> We both just buy what we want. Neither of us are big spenders, and she realizes how much I do, and save us financially by doing virtually everything myself, that most people pay someone big $ to do.


Yup. I have built both houses we have lived in during our 30 years together. I have fixed the sink, painted the house, provided the firewood, done ALL the maintenance on her cars, kept my old junk running (never more than one car financed at a time, always hers. Mine are quite seasoned). If I buy another tool, she knows it will lower or eliminate SOME bill, sooner or later.


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## gcaldicott (May 15, 2018)

RobertHaas said:


> My biggest fear is when I die my wife sells everything for what I told her I paid for it


That's funny!


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## juiceclone (May 15, 2018)

Whenever something breaks or needs to be "fitted" my wife says "u can fix that on the blue machine "  (chinese lathe)
 :>)  all u need is the right PR bs and there's no problem.   :>)


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## Mitch Alsup (May 15, 2018)

MarkDavis said:


> The new machine is much cheaper than spending your time at the bar drinking tequila.



Doing both works well, too.


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## Fabrickator (May 15, 2018)

Its pretty simple at my house, my money, her money and OUR money.  I don't ask why she continues to buy her 4,327th  top, and she doesn't ask why I continually buy tooling, materials and expendables.

All of our household living and recreational expenses come out of our money.


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## C-Bag (May 15, 2018)

I'm lucky my wife helps me keep my TAS in check because there are always incredible deals that could trip me up. She has never said no, just can you explain what you would use it for? And thats enough to make me recover enough to get real about what would really get the job done. We have done so many house projects together that she sees from the inside of the project why the right tool, whether expensive or cheap is needed and how what we do together comes out how we want. But my stuff is all about getting something done or fixed. I know I'd have a hard time if it was some restoration project of anything as I'm horrible about reselling.


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## kd4gij (May 15, 2018)

Buy the machine and get it in the shop when the little lady isn't around. If she notices then it has been there for years.


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## FarmDad (May 19, 2018)

I grew up on a farm/ranch and when we needed something the normal and usually only way to get it was to build it ourselves . Time that you " wernt doing anything anyhow "  was well advised to be spent in the shop  either building or repairing .  A life long infatuation with things that go bang coupled with that attitude led me to machine tools some years ago .  My wife loves woodwork  and leather working  and so far I am far behind her on money spent on machines and tooling  lol .


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## Janderso (May 21, 2018)

kd4gij said:


> Buy the machine and get it in the shop when the little lady isn't around. If she notices then it has been there for years.


I tried that with guns. She caught on, “oh, that’s a pretty one”, I don’t remember seeing that before and don’t tell me you’ve had it for years.


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## jdedmon91 (May 21, 2018)

tcarrington said:


> be sure to fix a curtain rod or maybe her car. Make a doo-hickey to hold something she really likes. Perhaps a small item in the shadow box would work. drill a tiny hole in something that she wants on a chain. you can also apply this to one of the kids or her best friend. I am not saying lie, but if you fix the faucet, regardless of whether the mill or lathe or any other power tool was involved, point out you saved a plumber visit. Make sure the gate that goes where ever works, all the time.



I’ve did the curtain rod thing and here is the video 






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## hotrats (May 22, 2018)

I got interested in metal work a year or so before retirement. (Should have done it earlier, as I could have got free instruction in the machine shop at work)Bought a '70's Brit car, to drive and then restore/engine/transaxle transplant for a retirement project. Obviously, I needed a mill, lathe , saw, etc, etc, to accomplish this. My wife is great about it. All I have to do is take her shopping. Best part is she doesn't buy hardly anything! I've actually told her - after hours of her shopping - "You bought nothing? Go back and buy something. We've been here all day- you're going to buy something!" Works well for us.


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