# No more MAPP!



## rwm (Dec 20, 2022)

In another thread I learned that MAPP gas is no longer available. There are substitutes with deceptively similar labeling. Unfortunately their flame temperatures are no where near the same. In fact I recently bought a can of MAP-Pro and I feel I have been scammed. Is this an unfair and deceptive trade practice?
I note that Butane is up there for flame temp. Why is this relegated to lighters and not commonly used in torches?








						Adiabatic flame temperature - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## francist (Dec 20, 2022)

Butane is used commonly but only for the small, micro-style of torch. These work great, by the way, but for small jobs only. No idea why it’s not available for the larger type of torch.


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## Ulma Doctor (Dec 20, 2022)

Luckily i hoarded a case of MAAP a few years back. I still got 10 bottles, so I’m going to ease up on it. 
Thanks for the info


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## Reddinr (Dec 20, 2022)

I have a couple of remaining bottles.  I use it sparingly.


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## brino (Dec 20, 2022)

WTF?
Why?

This is a standard for me at my local Home Hardware store.
I will need to see if they have on the shelf.......

-brino


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## 7milesup (Dec 20, 2022)

rwm said:


> In another thread I learned that MAPP gas is no longer available. There are substitutes with deceptively similar labeling. Unfortunately their flame temperatures are no where near the same. In fact I recently bought a can of MAP-Pro and I feel I have been scammed. Is this an unfair and deceptive trade practice?
> I note that Butane is up there for flame temp. Why is this relegated to lighters and not commonly used in torches?
> 
> 
> ...


They haven't made MAPP gas since 2008.  I have one or two bottles of the "good" stuff and a few more of the new "non-mapp" gas.
I guess if I really want to get something hot, it would be oxy/acetylene time.


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## benmychree (Dec 20, 2022)

If you google it, MAPP was discontinued because it burns cooler than acetylene, and costs substantially more than acetylene.


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## Dhal22 (Dec 20, 2022)

We Pro Press everything these days anyway.


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## Dhal22 (Dec 20, 2022)

Or fire up my B tank and my #32 tip


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## Eddyde (Dec 20, 2022)

Basically the industrial use of MAPP declined and the consumer market wasn't enough to make it viable to produce anymore.


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## benmychree (Dec 20, 2022)

Where I worked at Kaiser Steel, most all burning was done with propane, there were huge acetylene generators that went out on a scrap truck, but if really thick plate was cut, acetylene was used but from the biggest cylinders, with four cylinders manifolded together to avoid drawing the acetone from the cylinders, this was done in our shop, so I got to watch!  The plate being cut was about 12" thick, a special silicon steel for its magnetic properties, the parts were "backstop magnets" for the Stanford linear accelerator, as I remember, I worked on them on the G&L 350T boring mill after the notching operation with the torch was done.


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## mmcmdl (Dec 21, 2022)

No more Mapp ? We just got 2 cases delivered last week . ( if you're talking about the small yellow bottles ) .

Edit ...........we use Map//Pro .


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## Ken from ontario (Dec 21, 2022)

I could be wrong but as far as I remember MAPP gas has not been made for at least 10 years in Canada,  it was replaced with Map pro.


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## brino (Dec 21, 2022)

Well whaddya know.... apparently I am already using "MAP/PRO" too.
The cylinders says to only use with MAP/PRO compatible torches, but I've just been using the same old propane one......

As a user, I never even noticed the switch.

Brian


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## epanzella (Dec 21, 2022)

Day late and a dollar short as usual. I was thinking of trying mapp gas  as I'm getting tired of unrolling and rerolling my OA hoses.


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## markba633csi (Dec 21, 2022)

Well there you go, species are going extinct all the time


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## RJSakowski (Dec 21, 2022)

I too was not aware of the switch.  What an amazing ( in the worst sense) bit of marketing.  Switch to a formulation that is significantly lower in cost but lower in performance,  design a new label that implies an improved product, claim its better than propane (it is , marginally) and increase the price.  

I have used MAPP gas in the past for small brazing jobs in spite of the almost double price because of the almost double flame temperature. I recently bought a cylinder of MAP Pro and it will be the last.  Propane in the little torch from now on.  BTW, I buy the squat cylinders used for camo stoves and portable heaters.  They are 16 oz. vs. the 14 oz. cylinders and lower in price.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 21, 2022)

What the heck are you supposed to sweat copper pipe with propane? Particularly when it's cold out, I'll say it's impossible. I don't have a small, easy to maneuver bottle of acetylene. If they can make MAPP/pro for consumers, why not regular MAPP? This reminds of last year when I was re-staining my deck and I only had a half gallon of the "good stuff" left so I went to pick up another gallon. Some very effective ingredient was outlawed here in Colorado. Something about its V.O.C's. Stop protecting me from myself!


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## homebrewed (Dec 22, 2022)

I got a turbo style propane torch a little while back and it puts out noticeably higher BTUs than my old one.  The downside is that it also goes through propane faster.  I don't think the new one gets much hotter, it just gets more heat into the work.  I've found it works fine for soldering 1/2" copper pipe.  Stuff like valves, hose bibbs and the like take longer but that's understandable.  More material to get hot.

I also have used it for hardening small cutters I have made.  The most recent was a long-reach countersink for a project where I designed myself into a corner.

Now, those propane weed burners REALLY go through the propane.  I have used them to prep garden spots (to burn off last season's weed seeds) and the 20lb tank I use gets cold enough to freeze water on the outside.  I have no idea on how one of those would work for soldering/annealing etc., except that I'd do it outside!


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## RJSakowski (Dec 22, 2022)

Flame temperature of naturally aspirated propane is supposedly more the 3,000ºF.  I find that building an impromptu furnace out of fire brick makes it much easier to reach brazing temperatures.  I lay two bricks down for a base and three bricks for walls.  A sixth or seventh brick cis used for a roof.  This decreases radiation and convection of heat noticeably.


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## Dhal22 (Dec 22, 2022)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> What the heck are you supposed to sweat copper pipe with propane? Particularly when it's cold out, I'll say it's impossible. I don't have a small, easy to maneuver bottle of acetylene. If they can make MAPP/pro for consumers, why not regular MAPP? This reminds of last year when I was re-staining my deck and I only had a half gallon of the "good stuff" left so I went to pick up another gallon. Some very effective ingredient was outlawed here in Colorado. Something about its V.O.C's. Stop protecting me from myself!




Acetylene b tank and a turbo torch rig.   I've soldered 4-6" with a B tank.   Silver soldered 2-3", any bigger and an oxygen acetylene rig is needed.


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## rwm (Dec 22, 2022)

I'm gonna get me some dicyanoacetylene. It has a flame temp of 9010 deg F!


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## RJSakowski (Dec 22, 2022)

rwm said:


> I'm gonna get me so dicyanoacetylene. It has a flame temp of 9010 deg F!


More info please!


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## rwm (Dec 22, 2022)

Kidding. I don't think you can get it.
CORRECTION:
It is available on Titan
"Solid dicyanoacetylene has been detected in the atmosphere of Titan by infrared spectroscopy.[4] As the seasons change on Titan, the compound condenses and evaporates in a cycle, which allows scientists on Earth to study Titanian meteorology."


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## Karl_T (Dec 22, 2022)

Ah, this explains it.  In 1992, I built our new home and soldered all the water heat and potable water pipes with Mapp. It went fast.

Last year I did some re work with todays's imitation Mapp and lead free solder. Got the job done, but struggled. thought the issue was me. I knew about the solder but not the Mapp.


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## homebrewed (Dec 22, 2022)

rwm said:


> I'm gonna get me so dicyanoacetylene. It has a flame temp of 9010 deg F!


An excerpt from Wikipedia:

"Because of its high endothermic heat of formation, it can explode to carbon powder and nitrogen gas, and it burns in oxygen with a bright blue-white flame at a temperature of 5260 K (4990 °C, 9010 °F), the hottest flame in oxygen; burnt in ozone at high pressure the flame temperature exceeds 6000 K (5730 °C, 10340 °F)) "

I wonder what color it emits when it explodes???


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## RJSakowski (Dec 22, 2022)

Years ago, I had a Craftsman carbon arc torch.  The carbon arc torch is reputed to have a temperature as high as 35,000ºF.


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## GeneT45 (Dec 22, 2022)

I suspect that most people here have never used actual MAPP gas.  (I haven't).  It's been gone for a long time, and the MAP/Pro or whatever is what most of us think of.   Personally, I really like MAP/Pro for being hotter than propane, but sparing me firing up my OA rig.  (Which is good, since my acetylene regulator has apparently given up the ghost...).   But yeah, need hot?  Get acetylene.  For all its failings, it's still around for a reason.

GsT


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## rwm (Dec 22, 2022)

I used to have true MAPP gas in the past. It was hot. I unknowingly bought the new stuff and I could not figure out why my silver soldering was not going so well. I have since moved to an oxygen concentrator and propane setup. Cheaper and easier than OA but the flame size is limited by the O2 generator output.


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## ericc (Dec 22, 2022)

benmychree said:


> If you google it, MAPP was discontinued because it burns cooler than acetylene, and costs substantially more than acetylene.


That's what I heard.  I have bought both, and found the acetylene to be more expensive.  It costs me $25.00 to refill a 10 cu ft MC tank.  This is substantially less convenient than the 14 oz MAPP or MAPP PRO yellow bottle.  It is true that it is hotter.  A B tank is a better deal, but for small customers, the supply is so variable and volatile that it is pretty unpleasant to deal with.  It's so much more pleasant to just use argon for everything welding and oxy-propane for anything else.  Just don't see the need for acetylene anymore.


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## rwm (Dec 22, 2022)

Just to clarify- MAPP is not the same chemistry as MAP-Pro and MAPP burns (used to burn) hotter. The "yellow bottle" is part of the deceptive marketing.


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## 7milesup (Dec 22, 2022)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> What the heck are you supposed to sweat copper pipe with propane? Particularly when it's cold out, I'll say it's impossible.


Not at all.  In fact, I have very rarely used "true" MAPP gas for sweating copper pipes.  I used to own a house that had an electrolysis problem, and it would chew through copper pipes like mad.  I got to be very good at sweating copper pipe.  Absolutely no issues whatsoever, even when it was cold.  Now, if you are trying to fix a leak with the water still in the line, that would be a no beuno.  
A little trick for sweating copper when there is a little water left in them (that tiny drip, drip that will ruin your solder joint) is to get yourself some cheap white bread (no wheat or anything like that) and stuff enough up the pipe to stop the drip.  Get it soldered together quickly before the water makes it past the bread.  Once you turn the water back on, the bread disintegrates, and you are back in business.


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## rwm (Dec 22, 2022)

Neil is right on target. You cannot sweat a pipe with any water in it. I have only used the bread trick once but it is slick. Take the aerators out of the downstream faucet.


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## brino (Dec 22, 2022)

rwm said:


> I'm gonna get me so dicyanoacetylene.





rwm said:


> It is available on Titan



Too far!
I stopped going to my local NAPA gas outlet when they changed suppliers and I'd have to drive 60km to get the same tanks filled at a different outlet of the old supplier.

You expect me to go a moon of Jupiter?
I ain't got time for that!

.....and then there's the overhead.
I wouldn't be able to hide the cost of that mission in the current shop budget, the wife is gonna know!


Brian


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## rwm (Dec 22, 2022)

Brian-Look on Facebook Marketplace and get a used oxygen concentrator. 95% O2 from room air. Much easier than the Titan trip...


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## WobblyHand (Dec 22, 2022)

Once I got a B tank, I never went back to propane for plumbing.  With acetylene, I just select a reasonable tip, and the pipe is heated to soldering temperature in a short time.  I used my grandfather's Prestolite torch.  Light weight and easy to use.  Hot enough to melt copper if you sit on it long enough.

For serious heat, I use oxy-acetylene.

I second the bread trick.  Works great.


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## Dhal22 (Dec 22, 2022)

I am long out of new construction plumbing and have at least 10 B tanks at my shop.   All empty except for 1.


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## Dhal22 (Dec 22, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Not at all.  In fact, I have very rarely used "true" MAPP gas for sweating copper pipes.  I used to own a house that had an electrolysis problem, and it would chew through copper pipes like mad.  I got to be very good at sweating copper pipe.  Absolutely no issues whatsoever, even when it was cold.  Now, if you are trying to fix a leak with the water still in the line, that would be a no beuno.
> A little trick for sweating copper when there is a little water left in them (that tiny drip, drip that will ruin your solder joint) is to get yourself some cheap white bread (no wheat or anything like that) and stuff enough up the pipe to stop the drip.  Get it soldered together quickly before the water makes it past the bread.  Once you turn the water back on, the bread disintegrates, and you are back in business.




Pro press is a better trick than bread........


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 23, 2022)

I guess I've been lucky, I've always been able to do my pipe repairs dry. I don't have any MAPP/Pro, only the good stuff so I cannot say how the Pro works, but I was getting worried reading some of the issues people here wrote. That being said, the _high_ here yesterday was -15, windchill it was -48. The kind of weather that likes to break a pipe. How's Mapp/pro in those conditions, I'm sure I'll find out one day though retiring in Tennessee is only 2-3 years off if all goes to plan.


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