# Pope P-32 Spindle - How to disassemble



## ETI2K (Jul 15, 2022)

I am trying to restore a Pope P-32 spindle.  It spins freely, but makes noise consistent with bearing wear.  I have it off the machine (Reid 618H) and partially taken apart, but am unable to extract the shaft from its housing.  I have searched in vain for an exploded assembly drawing (or ANY drawing, really) that would offer some guidance as to the internals. 
I have looked into a professional rebuild - minimum cost $2500, so that's way out of reach as this is for a hobby application (and time I have plenty of).
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.


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## FOMOGO (Jul 15, 2022)

Looks like it would just press out from the tapered end. Do you have access to a hyd press? Mike


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## Cadillac (Jul 15, 2022)

I would press on the taper side down to pop back bearing then do the front(spindle side).


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## Firebrick43 (Jul 15, 2022)

agree, make sure the "retaining ring is fully unscrewed and place the flange of the spindle on the press and press from the tapered end.  It should slide out of the bearings at that point.  

The flange end bearing will probably stay on the shaft when you press it out, you will then have to use a bearing splitter to remove it from the shaft.


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## jbobb1 (Jul 15, 2022)

Not sure about what you have, but the few motorized spindles I rebuilt, I always had to remove the rotor.


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## ETI2K (Jul 16, 2022)

Thanks for suggestions.  I should apologize for not listing what I've already tried.

I have a 20-ton hydraulic press - without a force gauge.
With the housing flange supported, I've pressed on the shaft in both directions to no avail.  I've tried applying a LOT of force at once, and then holding a slightly lower force overnight.  Nothing moves.

I also tried to remove the motor's rotor from the shaft, as the shaft will move in the direction that is ultimately halted by the rotor.  It's always a WAG as to how much force is really being applied (another reason to fit this press with a force gauge), but I got close to the point of feeling uncomfortable and it did not move.  I may be letting my fear of expensive recovery getting in the way of what needs to be done.  


jbobb1 said:


> Not sure about what you have, but the few motorized spindles I rebuilt, I always had to remove the rotor.


In your experience, do you have any idea as to the level of force required?


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## jbobb1 (Jul 16, 2022)

The spindles I worked on were a little different. Some had the rotor held on by a very close semi slip fit along with a locking nut. Then there was the type that the rotor was held on by a taper fit. These were the worse because it never seemed to fail, that fit would cause the shaft to "bend" causing excessive run-out which in turn meant vibration. The amount of force always varied. We always heated the rotor, carefully, after we applied some pressure
Yours I can't really say. I wouldn't want to steer you in the wrong direction and result in damage. One thing I'm wondering about is that key (which looks like a woodruff key). Was there something else on the shaft?
The other thing I would do, if possible, is to measure the shaft diameter in front of and behind the rotor. That may tell a story.


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## Cadillac (Jul 16, 2022)

My spindle on my grinder looks like a similar design to the pope spindles. I have not had to do any work to the spindle. From what I know the pope spindle has a integrated spindle motor design. Do a Google search on pope grinder spindle a lot of hits come up with pictures


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 16, 2022)

The Pope spindles I have seen over the years are unlike most spindles.  The ID of the bearing race is tapered that fits on the tapered spindle.  Pope ordered special sized bearing that they made fit.  A regular off the shelf bearings would not work.  There is a ground spacer you you set the thrust with.  If you have never worked with a Pope spindle I would suggest you send it to a pro to do it that has a warrantee.  If you put it on wrong your going to ruin the bearings and have to send it to the pro anyway.   Have to put in the right amount of grease or it will overheat the spindle.


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## ETI2K (Jul 17, 2022)

Indeed, all good input.  Thank you.

I have little cash in this machine as it is, and it is in decent shape, overall.  My hope has been to disassemble the spindle, clean it up, strip and repaint (the entire machine), evaluate bearing and spindle condition and, if necessary, bearing replacement cost.  Dealing with custom ground bearings and spacers certainly adds a significant level of difficulty since there doesn't seem to be any printed material available to provide specifications (grease type and amount, preload, bearing numbers and assembly order, etc.).  

If I get this thing apart, I will have to use its current build condition as guidance, not knowing if it is correct or not.  At this point, that all just adds to the discovery.  I'd like to say fun, but as @Richard King 2 suggested, if I end up having to buy two sets of bearings, that would most likely kill that joy.  

A tiny sidebar...When I was 10, my mother bought me a used minibike.  It wouldn't start.  I knew nothing about engines and neither did my father.  One night a friend of his came over and asked me if I had gotten the minibike running.  When I said I hadn't he asked if I had taken apart the carburetor yet.  With wide-eyed fear(?) I said no.  His reply literally changed my life. He asked, "Why not?".   So I got he minibike running and I've been saying that to myself for the last 50+ years - Why not?  *So far* I've never not been able to get something back together, and in improved condition.  
The other saying that has guided me is "Behold the turtle.  He doesn't make any progress unless he sticks his neck out." 

So I will continue to push forward.  If I end up having to hand it over to a rebuild shop, it will be a game changer - and not in a good way.  It was easy to justify to my wife buying this SG for a couple hundred bucks.   A couple thousand bucks will require a completely different strategy.  

I don't mean to be shutting down this thread, as I would still really appreciate any additional advice or especially anything detailing the exploded assembly.  And I will continue to hope that "exploded" remains figurative, and not literal.


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 17, 2022)

here is some more info...https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/correct-orientation-of-spindle-bearings-in-norton-surface-grinder-spindle.302258/


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 17, 2022)

I did a class in Istanbul Turkey for a German company called Spinner.  They opened a plant in Turkey instead of China for logistics.  In Germany when they build their spindles they use the same type of tapered spindle bearings like a Pope design.  Spinner sent their German Technicians to Turkey to train the Turkish Techs.  After a year of training and the new guy's ruining countless tapered spindle bearings they changed the spindle design to standard straight bore bearings.   You may get lucky as hell and figure it out.  But I have been rebuilding precision spindles for years and I would not attempt to rebuild a Pope.  As you can see from the Practical Machinist thread.  Mactool is a famous rebuilder in Australia and Gbent is a retired engineer at John Deere and they would not attempt it.    I just spent 30 minutes looking for info for you.  please document what you decide to do and if you are successful you you will go down in history on the boards.  You may want to contact Northland spindle repair around noon and ask to talk to a technician that does spindle repair.  You might get a pro who does spindles while the salesman is out to lunch.  I've heard of this happening.   Oh CarbideBob on Practical machinist is still a member.  I will write him and see if he has any documentation.  If anyone has any he will.  Rich

Here is what I just wrote on PM...

Richard King​Diamond​JoinedJul 12, 2005LocationCottage Grove, MN 55016

1 minute ago
New
Add bookmark
#17
On another forum a fellow is going to try to rebuild his Pope spindle . It's a Reid surface Grinder. Does anyone have a drawing or photo's of a Pope Spindle with the tapered bore ball bearing style. I know this is an old thread and we have been discussing it for years. I was hoping someone has been successful. Carbide Bob of Mich Buck what would you say? Rich


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 17, 2022)

Haven't heard from anyone yet on the other forum.  If you take it apart note how many turns you have to turn the bearing retainer nut, scribe a live where it starts from.  before pressing off the bearings look for the TIR mark it looks like a dot. *  mark where it is located on the shaft as that is the extreme run-out mark of the bearing and the factory mounted it 180 degrees from the spindle run out.   You mark it and put it back on where it comes off.  I would order some Mobil grease # 28 or 32.  Thats what I have used for bearings for years and only install about 30% fill.  more then that and the bearing will get hot.  Kluber Isoflex gease is expensive but probably the best.  and only fill 25%.


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## ETI2K (Jul 18, 2022)

Wow, thank you very much Rich!  I appreciate your efforts on my behalf.  BTW, my name is Richard King, and I also go by Rich.
Your additional advice is beginning to have its intended effect.


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 18, 2022)

I was just thinking I wonder if you could re-engineer the spindle and grind the tapered shaft diameters straight and install some angular thrust bearings on the front end and a single deep grove bearing in the back end?  You would have to find the bearing ID and grind the shaft so it would be a light press.


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## ETI2K (Jul 18, 2022)

Tomorrow I'm going to have another go at removing the motor rotor.  If I can get it done I should be able to complete the disassembly.
I like the idea of redesigning the spindle to a more rebuilder-friendly configuration.  

I'll report progress tomorrow ...


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 18, 2022)

Get a magnifying glass and look at the threads above the nut.  Many times the machine builders used a left hand thread.  I have a dentists pick I like to try to follow the small end sticking up above the nut to see the thread direction.   Good Luck tomorrow.


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## ETI2K (Jul 21, 2022)

No success at all with rotor removal. 
Used a heat gun to heat the rotor to about 250F, then applied force to end of shaft.  I cycled the force on and off many times. 
The press has a listed capacity of 20 tons and I applied all it has.  Absolutely no movement of the rotor on the shaft. 
I left the shaft on the press with it fully loaded for two nights (the concept of gentle pressure, relentlessly applied).  Still no movement.
BTW, there is no nut securing the rotor in place.

The shaft definitely appears to be tapered (or stepped).  Diameter at the small end is 1.125.  At the opposite end of the rotor is 1.500.


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 21, 2022)

You may need one of these:








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## Richard King 2 (Jul 21, 2022)

Also if you want to get some Blaster penetrating fluid and squirt it into the rotor shaft and let is soak for a week or more, every so often tap on it as I will describe.   If you have a heavy duty steel table or welding table, not a wood work bench.  Screw on the free end nut (to keep the threads from getting buggered up.  Then lift the spindle up off the steel table 24" and slam it down on the end with the nut.  This is something my Dad taught me years ago to get a stuck part off a shaft. (momentum stop)  Wear some leather gloves.    The tapping will vibrate the penetrating fluid in between.  I once had a shaft take 3 weeks of doing that every day before it came off.   The heat probably expanded the inner shaft too.    I would remove that woodruff key too as once it starts to move you don't want to stop and take it off


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## ETI2K (Jul 21, 2022)

Richard King 2 said:


> You may need one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have one but have not needed it.  There is enough space between the rotor and the bearing retaining plates to rest the rotor on the two 3/4 thick steel plates of the press.  The dented edge of the rotor was there when I got it.  I originally assumed it was done by someone who did'nt know what they were doing (perhaps not unlike me).


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 21, 2022)

ETI2K said:


> I have one but have not needed it.  There is enough space between the rotor and the bearing retaining plates to rest the rotor on the two 3/4 thick steel plates of the press.  The dented edge of the rotor was there when I got it.  I originally assumed it was done by someone who did'nt know what they were doing (perhaps not unlike me).


Hmmm...looks like a good set-up.  You've checked to make sure there are not sets screws holding it on?  I used to have a press like that and it was a 2 stage pressure.  Is yours a hand pump of pump power?  Mine was a pump and it had a hand pump handle and when you pumped it it advanced fast until it touched the part and got tight, then a secondary piston in the hand pump exerted 30 tons of pressure.  One of my guys came up to me and said the press needed oil...?  He said it seems to slip when it gets tight.  I had to show him it was still moving but slow and under pressure.  Maybe your is like that too?


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## Cadillac (Jul 21, 2022)

The way you have the armature setup in the press begs the questions of where are you trying to separate. With how you have the armature setup all you can do is press the shaft out of the armature. That setup will not free the spindle.
From what I can see in your first pic is you want the armature on the bottom of the press plates. Spindle housing flange (largest OD) should be on top of press plates. Then press which would press the shaft tapered end. This procedure should press the back bearing out. Then you’d flip the housing and press the wheel side bearing along with the thrust bearing. 
 PB blaster is a great penetrate recommend it let it soak.


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## ETI2K (Jul 21, 2022)

@Richard King 2 The press is as you describe.  I used the hand lever until it would no longer move.  I definitely was not feeling good about that much axial load.
@Cadillac I have applied an axial force just as you described.  The only shaft movement occurs when the spindle assembly is supported on the housing flange (rotor-end up), and a force is applied to the top of shaft (downward).  The shaft moves until the rotor hits the bearing retainer.  I quite agree with you that every observable aspect suggests the shaft should be forced out 180 degrees from the orientation I described above.  But, since I have no way of knowing which is correct, I've been slowly adding force as I try each direction.


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## Cadillac (Jul 21, 2022)

The bearings have to be seated against a shoulder. If you press the way you are your pressing into a shoulder in the housing, and if it is a two piece spindle your pressing it tighter. 
 The only reason why I don’t think it’s a two piece shaft is what’s supporting the weight of the motor? The spindle housing bolts are what mounts the spindle/motor to the column correct? If two piece the motor would separate once the spindle got warm. Am I missing something here?


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## ETI2K (Jul 21, 2022)

I've halfway wondered if someone (inappropriately?) used retaining compound on the rotor.  Seen it done plenty of times with bearings.  The only way I know to beat Loctite 680, for example, is a lot of heat.

I will put together some pics that might be helpful in our discussion. Probably won't be until tomorrow morning, though.
I appreciate everyone's help.


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## ETI2K (Jul 21, 2022)

For some reason, my replies by phone do not register.  I reply in the evening by phone and then call it a day.  Next morning I check it, and see nothig.


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 22, 2022)

I looked tonight and found some more info.  I typed Pope grinder spindle with intregal motor and found some drawings and pictures.   https://www.bing.com/search?q=pope+...aqs=edge..69i57.46945j0j4&FORM=ANAB01&PC=HCTS

You may want to call Grinders Clearing house and see if they have a print of a Pope.






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## Cadillac (Jul 22, 2022)

I found two threads on PM about the pope spindle. From the two pictures I e found that spindle is one piece. The post talks about having to press the armature off to get to the rear bearing. 
  Another YouTube video shows the spindle fully disassembled at a rebuild shop and the spindle was the length of the motor and spindle.


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 22, 2022)

Cadillac said:


> I found two threads on PM about the pope spindle. From the two pictures I e found that spindle is one piece. The post talks about having to press the armature off to get to the rear bearing.
> Another YouTube video shows the spindle fully disassembled at a rebuild shop and the spindle was the length of the motor and spindle.


That picture / drawing Cad shows is in the top set of photos I linked to in my last post at 11:27  I think the PT Blaster spray or by a 2 gallons of it and soak it for a week and now and then vibrate it every day with a lead or brass hammer.  Also if you have hat double stage press you need to get brave and pump it a few more pumps.  Looking at the first set of your photos there looks like you didn't clean off some crud.  You should clean off every surface to be sure there isn't a sets or double set screws under the crud.   

I was also thinking if those fan fins are uneven or bent you may want to chuck the spindle up in a lathe and kiss the bottom of them or the other side as it looks swedged and uneven so they all touch at the same time on the 3/4 " plates or use your bearing splitter plate flat side against them.  IF not sent the spindle to a pro and have them disassemble it for you. have them quote doing the complete job too, then decide what to do.  I still say to bite the bullet and have them rebuild it.  Your difficulty here is obvious your not working in the right direction!


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## ETI2K (Jul 23, 2022)

The struggle has been disappointing.  Still not quite ready to call it, though.

I've seen that picture you attached.  Since it is not quite the same, I was hoping there might be another (better) one out there.  For example, there are no locking screws shown in the exploded assembly (except for the stator).  Mine uses two at the wheel-end.  They thread into a brass sleeve, 180 degrees apart.  The set screws are accessible by removing a threaded plug in the housing.  So far, no luck on finding anything showing those setscrews.  However, if we can safely assume the designs are fundamentally similar, and I believe they are, then there is hope.  


Would you agree from looking at that pic, that the shaft could conceivably be pressed out in either direction?  Even while typing that, I still believe the shaft "SHOULD" be pressed out from the wheel-end.

I do tend to have some reservations about how hard to press on it - in any direction.  I keep thinking I must have missed another setscrew (been there before).  That said, right now the press is still holding its full force against the rotor-end of the shaft - been that way for a couple of days now.  The hydraulic bottle jack is rated at 20 tons, which means it's probably good for 12 .  

I like the idea of soaking the whole thing in a pentrating oil.  An ultrasonic cleaner large enough would be really nice, but that's a non-starter!  I'll have to see what I can rig up.  On Monday I will reach out to Grinders Clearing House for help.

If I weren't so jammed up right now, I'd add a force gauge to the press, just for S&G.  I am trying to complete the construction of a new shop and get final inspection so I can start moving in machines!


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## ETI2K (Jul 24, 2022)

Got it.
Leaving the shaft on the press with some Kroil in the rotor's recess did the trick.  It still took almost everything the press had, and when it finally let go, it was with great gusto - BOOM!

It turns out everything inside the housing is in very good condition.  The races show only typical running discoloration with no overheating evidence, no scratches or scores, and the bearing rollers are all smooth as glass.

The bearing sound that I had heard before disassembling it was from the 6204 bearing at the rear motor housing.  It's definitely worn out, and it seems to be the only part needed.

In the attached photo, the string of parts immediately below the shaft came off the wheel-end.  They're laid out in order .
The bearing still on the shaft left its race in the housing.


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 24, 2022)

Congratulations.... You got brave...lol... I am curious, did the bearings have any grease on them?  Did you buy some "good" grease?  Remember to only fill it 25 to 30% full and good luck on the reassembly.


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## ETI2K (Jul 25, 2022)

They were greased - and the grease was in good condition.  Some oxidation, but it was still quite soft and very clean.  I have not sourced new yet.  I will look into your recommended options.
Thanks for the assistance.  More (hopefully good news) to follow...


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## ETI2K (Jul 25, 2022)

@Richard King 2 Do you have a specific grade recommendation for Kluber Isoflex? There seem to be plenty of options.


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 25, 2022)

Kluber NBU-15  or Mobil 28 or Mobil 32






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## ETI2K (Jul 26, 2022)

Great.  Thanks


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## Richard King 2 (Aug 7, 2022)

What's the status?     Done anything on the Pope Spindle lately?


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## ETI2K (Aug 7, 2022)

I've been very busy finishing the interior build-out in my new shop building.  I'm probably a week or so from getting my final.  So no meaningful progress on the spindle. 
I decided to fully inspect the spindle shaft before ordering any parts. In particular, I wanted to confirm it was straight.  Since I didn't have v blocks big enough I decided to make some. That's done, and the shaft is true.

I have made a few parts for the SG, like a new x-axis shaft for the handwheel (old one has a bend in it) and some new handwheel handles, cleaned up the spindle housing of some ugly setscrew damage from the (missing) wheel guard not aligning to the flat on the housing, and started removing three layers of paint from the entire machine (still a long way to go there). 

I believe I will use electrolysis wherever I can to strip, derust (very little actually), and make ready for new paint.  When everything is cleaned, I'll assess the ways.  They look pretty decent but until I can get at least an indicator on them, it's just a WAG.

So much to do...however, I just yesterday received the Kluber Isoflex NBU15 and I already have the new motor bearing, so maybe some small progress after all.


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