# Die Filer -  have one or insights?



## Alan H.

I have a Swiss friend who has some wonderful antique weight driven clocks.  I began to ponder making one - yeah a big dream to say the least. 

Meanwhile I began watching Clickspring on Youtube.  He has a Die Filer that looks like this:



I became interested in this little machine.  Anyone here that has one?   Ot perhaps insights that they can share on availability, tooling, cost, etc.?


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## davidpbest

Hi Alan,

I looked into this myself a while back.   I decided to hold off for now, but there are a few variations available as kits.   What Chris (Clickspring) uses is this one:

http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA-18.html

Hemingway offers this (YouTube videos available too):

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Sawing___Filing_Attachment.html

There is also this kit available - oddly enough, from a supplier down the road from me:

http://www.martinmodel.com/MMPtools-subfiles/MMPtools-sub.html

There's an interesting set of YouTube videos on another DIY variant:






There are also a few used complete units on eBay.   Here's one closest to the MLA-18 Chris uses.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MACHINIST-T...759373?hash=item2cbd04a58d:g:mPwAAOSw03lY5Yqp

Hope this helps.

David


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## Terrywerm

I recently purchased a die filer and it is a great little machine. I can see where they would be fantastic for clockmakers, especially when crossing out wheels or making elegant frames.

I have only used it for one project so far, but it was a worthwhile purchase. I got lucky and got mine with forty some files for $50 from a retired tool and die maker. It is similar to the unit shown above but is powered by a gear motor, which slows it down a little more, which I see as being more appropriate. It also has a larger table, square in shape with a very unique table mounting that allows adjustment in two directions so that it can be completely squared with any file that is mounted, or it can be set to any angle that a person might desire. I do not yet have any photos of it but should get some up here.

The files typically have a round shank about a quarter of an inch in diameter. They are also different in that they cut as the file is pulled downward, and not the other way around like a conventional hand file. From what I understand new files can be difficult to find, but they are out there, one just has to look hard to find them.

One word of caution: When you first use one you will quickly learn to keep your fingers away from the edges of your work. If the file happens to lift your part, a finger near the edge manages to quickly slip under it just a bit, getting a nice pinch (and maybe even a nice blood blister) as the file pulls the part back down to the table. Yup, been there, done that!


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## Alan H.

David,
Thanks for the great links.  I am tempted to buy the casting package from the first link.  Combining a die filer with my belt grinder would give me quite a capacity.   I am imagining a variable speed setup.  Did you get deeply enough into this to decide which way you would go?  

Terry,
Quite a find - how bout a photo or two.  Are the files in decent shape?   You mention the files are hard to come by, have you found a source?


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## f350ca

I built one from the casting kit you're interested in Alan. Was a fun build, the castings were top quality, the first thing I ever made from a kit. I don't use it a lot but its handy at times, would be great for clock work.
Greg


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## Billh50

I could have used one a few times through the years. But not enough to consider buying or making one. I did have an offer of a a free on a couple months ago and I should have taken it. hind sight still works.


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## Alan H.

f350ca said:


> I built one from the casting kit you're interested in Alan. Was a fun build, the castings were top quality, the first thing I ever made from a kit. I don't use it a lot but its handy at times, would be great for clock work.
> Greg


Thanks Greg!   Now for a few questions:
How much of the package did you buy?  The "Whole Monty" with drive pulley and hardware?
What type drive did you use - straight or variable speed? 
Did you use a flat belt or other? 
Did you build a stand or mount it on a board?
Have you made your own files or did you find them somewhere?

A photo or two would really be appreciated.


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## Eddyde

I have one, don't use it much but it is great for making square holes.


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## chips&more

I make lots of clock parts. A die filing machine for such is invaluable. I would look around for a used one. They can be found and reasonable. After buying castings, time making and all that, IMHO it’s better to buy used factory made. But if you want the joy and pride in making, then go for it. Files for the thing, I think, will be your toughest challenge to procure… Good Luck, Dave.


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## Alan H.

chips&more said:


> I make lots of clock parts. A die filing machine for such is invaluable. I would look around for a used one. They can be found and reasonable. After buying castings, time making and all that, IMHO it’s better to buy used factory made. But if you want the joy and pride in making, then go for it. Files for the thing I think will be your toughest challenge to procure…Dave.


Thanks Dave - sage advice I am sure!  
My problem is I live in a wasteland relative to availability of used tools.   Ebay is not a place I would want to buy something like this and my brief look there in the last couple of days tells me the prices are nuts anyway.  I would want to touch it and check it out before buying it.  I will certainly look regionally though.  

Birmingham Alabama used to be a big metal working town and there may be some there, who knows.  I have a clock making buddy locally that I need to tap as well.  He may have a source too.


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## BGHansen

I have an Oliver S-1 die filer and LOVE the machine (link below to my filer).  A lot of my projects involve working sheet metal; used to do the fine work to a scribed line with needle files.  My Oliver makes quick work of it.  I've also made some punches and dies using the Oliver to match the punch (oddball shape) to the die.  It cuts square (or angled if the table is set that way as Terry mentioned above) to the surface of the work, no way would I have held to a square edge with needle files by hand.  Link to the work I did on the punch is below.

As Terry mentioned above, the files are scarce and expensive.  They are called "parallel machine files" or "die filer files".  Search eBay on either name and you'll see some options.  They are available from Falcon Tool in Traverse City, MI (falcontool.com).  Also available from American Rotarty Tools (www.artcotools.com).  Also available from Federal File (fedfile.com).  They run around $15 each.  There's a seller on eBay (kentstools4you) who must have fallen into a slug of 4" long 3/16" diameter round #00 or #0 files.  He sells 12 of them for $16 + $3.95 shipping.  I bought a batch from him, they work well.

I've also heard of guys silver-soldering a piece of rod stock to the tip of a standard file, then mount that in the base of the die filer so the file will cut on the down stroke.  Probably want a die filer with an overarm to do that or you'll snap the file if pushing too hard.

Also, great tip from Terry above about watching your fingers.  I did the same thing, touched the file which pulled the skin down between the file and the work which was being pushed into the file.  Got a blood blister pinch from the experience.  Probably a right of passage for anyone using a die filer.

Bruce

http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/oliver-model-s-1-die-filer.53605/
http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/erector-set-part-number-nu-parachute-men-punch-and-die.59615/


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## f350ca

Thought i had beter photos, this is the best I can find.






I built it quite a while ago, can't remember if I bought the bushing material and hardware but did go for the pulley casting. Its quite heavy and would act as a flywheel. I had this stand, think it was for an ice skate sharpener. I salvaged a little 1/8 HP motor from a small drill press, it mounts under. Could be a little slower, a treadmill motor would probably work well, doesn't require much power.
I've been using regular files, chainsaw files turned upside down work well, I've ground the body on a couple of square and triangular files then JB welded them into a pice of tubing, someone mentioned silver solder, I'll try that.
Guess that stand could do with a coat of paint.

Greg


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## ndnchf

I picked up a well worn Harvey Butterfly die filer a while back and rebuilt it.  I slowed it down a bit using a 1075 rpm motor.  Its a very handy little machine now.  Here's a thread on the rebuild.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/harvey-butterfly-die-filer-rebuild.52633/


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## Dunc1

Harold Hall, of Model Engineer & Model Engineers' Workshop authored a detailed build article that is now available at
http://www.homews.co.uk/page475.html. One portion of this addresses how to adapt ordinary files to cut on the downstroke.


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## Silverbullet

At the used prices of filing machines it's a better deal building your own from the kit. I use to use one years ago while making tools for myself in vocational school. It sure made working on precision tools better. On my planer gauge for example the cut outs getting rid of mill marks and things like that. Sure made polishing easier. At celmar a shop I worked at we did government contracts for the missile program. We had some jobs with titanium which had to pass finish inspection. The boss said I need these done by morning keep the crew working on them and leave them for the inspector. With a good crew my men and I were able to get them done during our shift but I gave them all an extra hr for working through there break times of fifteen minutes each. So we had proved the second shift could come thru and he could count on me to get the jobs done. He would have left me give them more time working but we didn't want to be slackers. But the filing machine really helped get the finish we needed.


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## Alan H.

This thread has garnered a lot of good info, links, insights, etc.  Thanks to all and keep it coming.

@f350ca - Greg, what stand did you use for the MLA that you built?  I like having the motor out of the way and the dust.  Looks like you have it under the mounting plate in your machine.


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## f350ca

The stand came from an ancient Ice skate sharpener I acquired. There were a few good parts in it. Used the spindle casting for a tool grinder.

Greg


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## Bill Gruby

Make your own, I did. No castings necessary. All prints are in thread.

 "Billy G"

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/the-hobby-machinist-die-filer.33214/


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## Alan H.

Bill Gruby said:


> Make your own, I did. No castings necessary. All prints are in thread.
> 
> "Billy G"
> 
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/the-hobby-machinist-die-filer.33214/


Thanks Bill, Perhaps I missed it but is there a photo of the finished filer on a stand?


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## Bill Gruby

No Alan, I will take one and post it later. It's a great little machine and works much better than anticipated.

 "Billy G"


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## Doubleeboy

I have one just like Greg's (F350ca)  got the castings from MLA, it was a great project to build, I don' t use it much but its handy and was a fun project to build a dozen years ago or so.  Very good plans and castings, I suspect anything from MLA is a winner.


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## Alan H.

Doubleeboy said:


> I have one just like Greg's (F350ca)  got the castings from MLA, it was a great project to build, I don' t use it much but its handy and was a fun project to build a dozen years ago or so.  Very good plans and castings, I suspect anything from MLA is a winner.


What drive did you use with it?  Chris of Clickspring used a 1/2hp Sherline motor with speed control and it looks like a nice solution.  Here's a photo of his MLA.


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## Doubleeboy

I used a half horse Craftsman motor that has been following me around for 40 years, gross overkill but it gets job done, 1725 rpm. with small pulley on motor


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## Robert LaLonde

Maybe not to the same standard, but this reminded me of a dirty little application I saw once from somebody who didn't have a scroll saw.  They drilled a hole in a table and screwed the table of a jig saw to the bottom of the table so a blade stuck up thru the hole.


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## Alan H.

Thanks for all the feedback here.  After pondering the options, I have decided it would be fun to make one.  So I bought the casting set from MLA. 

So I am about to make a big mess machining cast iron.  When I get it finished, I will post the outcome on a thread of its own.

Now to look into the ends and outs of machining cast iron.


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## george wilson

I have 3 die filers,and STILL bought the Lathe Accessories kit,because it makes such a beautiful little filer. You can make your own files by cutting regular small size files off,grinding the tang down to slip into a 1/4" cylinder,and using  J.B. Weld to glue it into the 1/4" cylinder. This is what the kitb recommends,and JB dries hard as can be! Great stuff.

I put a variable speed motor on my Butterfly because ALL die filers run WAYYYYY TOOOOOO FAST ! This not only gets your finger tips snapped,but it wears out the files too rapidly. Just like cutting metal with too fast a bandsaw speed,or running a lathe too fast on tool steel,files aren't made to run excessively fast. The die filer becomes MUCH safer and more easily accurately controlled if you slow it down. Makes a HUGE difference. Penn State catalog sells a little 1/2 H.P. motor WITH variable speed box for about  $119.00. That is PLENTY of power even for a Butterfly die filer. It'd be perfect for the little kit.


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## Alan H.

Thanks George for the input.  I think you are spot on variable speed and slow.

I am familiar with the Penn State offering and have that as one of my options to study.

The other is the Sherline drive.   The Sherline has far more turndown since it is a 90 vdc motor.  Evidently you can turn it down to 70 rpm.   But I do need to dig into the specs a bit more and understand its duty cycle at lower rpms.   An advantage of the DC drive is that the torque is still very high at low speed.   The cost is twice as much as the Penn State solution but it seems not too bad considering what you get.

EDIT: George, can you recommend some targets for strokes/minute?


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## silverforgestudio

These are from the clock and watch forum I belong to and show a perfect re-use- the files are cutting on the down stroke and the sewing machine already is set for perpendicular action. 

You do NOT get the pull away or the ease of setting the angle- but a jig can solve one of those problems!

I seriously envy you on the kit build- just trying to show how others "made it work" as well- best of journeys in the build and lets see pics!


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## petertha

Re example  http://www.martinmodel.com/MMPtools-subfiles/MMPtools-sub.html
I've often wondered, what's the logic behind the funky slider mechanism? Seems like so many odd surfaces & fits to get right. Is there a reason why a connecting rod principle wouldn't work for rotary > linear motion?


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## hman

I'll give a guess here, kinda based on general principles ...  Note that the "traditional" slide mechanism allows guide bearings on the vertical rod both above and below the rotary > linear mechanism.  This makes for a stiffer and more exact linear motion.  A crank mechanism, such as on an engine, only allows the vertical motion to be guided (by the cylinder) on one side of the crank.  So it will take more vertical space - including a certain minimum height of the piston for it to be guided.  In addition, there's a lot more frictional area on such a piston than on the guide rod of a traditional die filer.

Now say you built a crank mechanism that was offset behind the rod - so you could put bearings both above and below the crank linkage.  You'd still need extra vertical space for the connecting rod.  If the rod swung through an arc of +/-45º, it would require extra vertical space about as tall as the stroke.  

Try thinking of the slider mechanism as a "zero length connecting rod" design.


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## C-Bag

I got intreagued by the idea of a die filer when I saw how somebody took a table top jig saw and adapted it to a filer. But being cheap and also heeding the admonishment that you don't want to try and take a lot of material off with it or any die filer I moved to a different solution. I mounted my die grinder in an adjustable mount using 80/20 and slowing it down with a router speed control. For me it's ideal and I didn't have to buy anything.


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## george wilson

I think I mentioned it somewhere,as I've made several posts about die filers. But,I'd estimate for a good slow speed about 30-to 60  strokes per minute. I actually haven't timed the die filer with a watch. This will make your files cut just fine and last a LOT longer.

If you have ever had the experience of 01 steel suddenly hardening just from being HAND filed a bit too fast,and cutting a groove in your file (from hardening maybe .001" deep!),you'll know that mild steel,brass,and various tool steels can stand different speeds. Brass can stand much faster strokes than mild steel. Tool steel is where you need to be the most careful. Even mild steel should not be filed real fast.

By the way,the master gunsmith mentioned that I was the ONLY person he had ever seen use cutting oil on a cutting off job with a hack saw. He had to admit,it made sense! I have a bunch of vintage hack saw blades that I like to LAST. And,it saws faster,too.

Some machinists OIL their files,too. That can be useful on metals like genuine wrought iron,that is gummy,and can suddenly grab a chip and cut a groove across your nearly finished surface.


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## Alan H.

George, you are making a very strong argument for variable  and low speed.  Thanks for your input.


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## Componenx

I have a Keller die filler with both overarms (one is spring loaded), and while it rarely gets used, it's REALLY nice to have when I do need it.  I completely agree with the variable/low speed comments; try using a variac, it worked quite nicely on mine.  

Files are difficult to find, and are frequently worn out in the middle.  There's a place here in California that sharpens files, but I don't know if their process works for small and/or fine files.  Bog Tool, or something like that.  

I got my first Keller (now sold) at a yard sale years ago for $5 because the overarms were missing; the second one was free (also a gararge sale), because the seller considered it to be obsolete (!)


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## Scruffy

I was give this several years ago. Made by Illinois tool works, must have been made during ww2 , notice the war tag.
  My problem is what George said , runs way to fast. I have cut a lot of material with a jig saw clamped to the bottom of my table saw table. Hers some pics.
Thanks scruffy Ron
 Ps cliff is going to come 300 miles to get the lathe cabinet I gave him tomorrow


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## John Dilsaver

I just acquired an Oliver die filer, just beginning to learn about it.  I will post more info soon.


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## John Dilsaver

Here it is just as I unloaded it.


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## BGHansen

John Dilsaver said:


> View attachment 291207
> 
> 
> Here it is just as I unloaded it.


John,

Congrats on the pick up!  Definitely a nice tool to have when the need arises.  Looks like you might have a model S-1 there.  Hunt on eBay for "die filer files" or "parallel machine files" and expect to pay about $12 each for them.  Not a tool I use every day, but I spent an hour using it fixing some sheet metal parts I messed up a month ago.  The parts work great now, no one will be the wiser.  I'd have spent days doing the work with needle files.

Bruce


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## Toolmaker51

Deleted member 43583 said:


> David,
> Thanks for the great links.  I am tempted to buy the casting package from the first link.  Combining a die filer with my belt grinder would give me quite a capacity.   I am imagining a variable speed setup.  Did you get deeply enough into this to decide which way you would go?
> 
> Terry,
> Quite a find - how bout a photo or two.  Are the files in decent shape?   You mention the files are hard to come by, have you found a source?


Users of die filers won't get much utility out of variable speed. Like hacksaws; target 40-60 SPM to allow each tooth imparts cutting action. Thicker material, coarser teeth-slower speed. A three step sheave is quite common; slow-3 still removes material quickly and really good control to the finest of scribed lines. You'll be more productive engineering a stroke adjustment than speed, and that could be in steps too.
I was die-filing before any of us heard of wire-EDM, and it remains in use. Literally jobs in dozens of forms; dies of course up to 2" thick, small brackets, billet race car stuff, and three Pennsylvania muzzle loader patch boxes. And no monthly payment on a wire machine; besides, the nearest wire guy is 65 miles away.
Best advice I have, came to me 40 years ago. Store files separated like all files should be, and don't cut brass with files you want to use again on steel.


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## wlburton

Toolmaker51 said:


> Users of die filers won't get much utility out of variable speed. Like hacksaws; target 40-60 SPM to allow each tooth imparts cutting action. Thicker material, coarser teeth-slower speed. A three step sheave is quite common; slow-3 still removes material quickly and really good control to the finest of scribed lines. You'll be more productive engineering a stroke adjustment than speed, and that could be in steps too.
> I was die-filing before any of us heard of wire-EDM, and it remains in use. Literally jobs in dozens of forms; dies of course up to 2" thick, small brackets, billet race car stuff, and three Pennsylvania muzzle loader patch boxes. And no monthly payment on a wire machine; besides, the nearest wire guy is 65 miles away.
> Best advice I have, came to me 40 years ago. Store files separated like all files should be, and don't cut brass with files you want to use again on steel.


What is the issue with using files for both steel and brass?  What about aluminum?


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## Toolmaker51

Only a fresh or sharp single cut file shears brass effectively, partly that brass reduces friction. Most any pinned up rusty file cuts steel. Aluminum also likes sharp files, try one called a vixen, or multi-cut, and die on steel. Teeth are practically little end mills. Very much like band saw blades; hooks cut aluminum 1200 FPM, and break off in steel. I make water jacketed spot-welding electrodes occasionally from hard copper, cutting or filing it is worse!


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## projectnut

For those that might be interested in a die filer, but find many on the market too expensive, you might want to check out the Delta 40-440 scroll saw.  They were built from the early 1940's to at least the 1970's.  They are considered to be a poor man's die filer.  They were built to use 1/8" diameter machine files.  They could be purchased with either a variable speed drive, or a step pulley speed change. One nice thing is that they have a over arm, so the file is captured at both ends.  The fact that it's also a scroll saw makes it that much more versatile. 

I've had one for several years and do use it occasionally as a die filer.  It isn't a high use item but for the price I paid for it, it's more than earned it's keep.  There are currently a few on eBay going for between $200.00 and $400.00.  I purchased one like this in excellent condition from a used tool vendor around $100.00.








						delta scroll saw  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for delta scroll saw at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



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As for files they are getting a bit harder to find, and are a little more expensive than they were in past years.  I used to be able to buy a box of 12 files for around $1.00 each.  there are still some styles available in the $3.00 to $5.00 range, but most are around the $10.00 mark.  If you Google "machine files" you'll find there are still a number of vendors that still have them.


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## kb58

Robert LaLonde said:


> Maybe not to the same standard, but this reminded me of a dirty little application I saw once from somebody who didn't have a scroll saw.  They drilled a hole in a table and screwed the table of a jig saw to the bottom of the table so a blade stuck up thru the hole.


I was about to suggest this. Weld or braze a small file to a matching jig saw holding end, support the top of it, and it seems like it could work fine.


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## C-Bag

kb58 said:


> I was about to suggest this. Weld or braze a small file to a matching jig saw holding end, support the top of it, and it seems like it could work fine.


I have a saber saw I made a mount to hold it and a table. It works good even on low speed but is not as controlled and smooth as a regular jig saw. Even though the mount is plenty stout and mounted to a heavy table. It has a semi circular action to it that maybe not all saber saw's have, but I feel would be totally unsuitable for a die filer. Jig saws don't have that kind of action. Just my 2c


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## mattm82

I’m hoping it’s ok to post here but my mate has started a fb page to discuss die filers, share pics, their uses, jigs and file sources. I have located a supplier of diamond files for die filers and we’ll be posting about that shortly. Would be great to see some of you guy over there too.

It’s called Die Filers/Filing and sawing machines. 

It won’t let me post a link, sorry.
Matt


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## kb58

I think "This Old Tony" said in a video about his die filer, "makes everything except money." Not sure how he intended that remark...


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## Silverbullet

I picked up an old box of machine files 9 in it . Several are new looking and a few shapes to boot. I had plans on building one or using an old allsaw I never use. It reciprocates about an inch an a half . Which is perfect for filing . Wouldn't take long to make a table and frame or find and old jig saw table or bandsaw table.  But the way things are turning out I may never get back in my shop.


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