# Tormach Tts Er Collet Holders?



## sbx (May 12, 2015)

Hey all,

Just wondering your opinions on the Tormach TTS style ER Collet holders. I am researching tooling for my soon to be arriving PM25MV Mill (ordered). Rather than going for the traditional R8 collets, I have been leaning towards going with an ER Collet system using R8 holders.

In this research I've seen several you tube videos and positive reviews of the Tormach TTS system, and their associated ER collet holders. Now, most of these seem to relate to quick change and automated tooling changes, but they also seem to be a nice system for to replace traditional collets with something more versatile.

Tormach sells the holders for a reasonable price, and there are cheaper import knockoffs as well.

So, since I don't already posses any existing system, and I am planning on converting my mill to CNC eventually, I wanted to see what the Forums thoughts were on both the Tormach TTS ER collet holders as well as thoughts on just going straight ER collets vs R8 collet sets.

Discuss..

Thanks for any insight,
sbx


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## RJSakowski (May 13, 2015)

The big advantage of the TTS system is that the TTS tool holder mounts to a reproducible z position.  As you tighten the holder in the R8 collet, it draws the tool holder tight to the spindle face.  That allows you to switch tools easily.  I mounted a dial indicator  in one of the tool holders and use it to set my z zero.  The tools mounted in their tools holders are then compared to the dial indicator with a height gage.  If a tool needs to be replaced, the replacement tool can be measured with the height gage and used.

There is an extra opportunity for runout because of one more element in the tool chain but the Tormach holders are supposed to have less than.0003" runout.

The collets are more expensive than R8 collets and you don't have the size range that you have with R8 collets.  The ER20 goes up to 13mm.  The ER32 to 20mm.
The tool holders are pretty much self ejecting when you loosen the drawbar, due to the tension created during tightening. Changing tools in the tool holder is a bit of a pain in that it takes more of a turn to loosen the tool but if you have enough tool holders, this isn't that big a problem.  I have ten so I can keep the most common cutters permanently mounted.  I also keep an edge finder and centering point mounted.  In addition, I have a number of end mill holders and chucks with TTS shanks.

A drawback is the additional height required as compared to an R8 collet mount.  You will have to purchase their TTS R8 collet or grind the face of a standard 3/4" R8 collet.  You may also have to true the face of your mill spindle.

Overall, I think the benefits greatly outweigh the drawbacks.  I use the TTS system on my old mill drill as well as the Tormach, having modified a 3/4" Crawford collet (chosen because it had the lowest specified runout that I could find).


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## ronboult (May 13, 2015)

Hi sbx

I have a Sieg SX3 mill with a R8 spindle. I have completely changed over to the Tormach TTS system even though the mill is manual not CNC.

So far I have not had a cutter slip and the run out of the TTS tooling is better than the mill. Just make sure your arbor and collet are clean as advised on the Tormach website.

I installed a Tormach 3/4 R8 collet in the spindle and it is never changed. All my cutters, face mills, drill chucks  indicators, edge finders etc are mounted on TTS arbors. I use mainly ER20 & 25 chucks, ER32 are too large and obscure the work and I never use larger than 16mm endemic anyway so why use ER32. I have tried some TTS end mill holders (from LMS) but don't use them much because they require a weldon shank cutter ( Flat for grub screw)

Changing cutters etc is a breeze, loosen the draw bar, gentle tap to loosen the collet and the TTS arbor just drops out ready for the next.

A big advantage is that the TTS arbors are much shorter than R8 collets so you don't have to raise the head as far to change cutters.

I happen to think that on smaller size mills they are just great, much like putting a QCTP on a lathe. On larger mills NT40 etc spindles would be a better option.

Also if you intend to CNC your mill then they are the Bees Knees.

However because the system is designed to  have every cutter you use in its own holder  you will end up buying lots of holders and ER collets. While I have some genuine TTS arbors I have also bought bulk sets from ebay (bsello168  Yusing Tools) in China. They seem very well made, no runout problems and are a considerable cost saving for larger quantities.

Ron


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## sbx (May 14, 2015)

Thanks for the feedback. I think I am going to try to get some of the TTS holders, probably ER16 since my forthcoming mill is small (BF20) and I don't see myself using very large endmills in it. One other thing that I stumbled across was a guy on youtube making his own basic holders for simple tooling on his Mill (I'd use my lathe). Simple 3/4" shank and set screw in the head. 

I will probably also get some standard R8 ER collet chucks in case of using larger endmills or when I use random tooling vs ones dedicated to the TTS holders. 

sbx


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## RJSakowski (May 14, 2015)

sbx said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I think I am going to try to get some of the TTS holders, probably ER16 since my forthcoming mill is small (BF20) and I don't see myself using very large endmills in it. One other thing that I stumbled across was a guy on youtube making his own basic holders for simple tooling on his Mill (I'd use my lathe). Simple 3/4" shank and set screw in the head.
> 
> I will probably also get some standard R8 ER collet chucks in case of using larger endmills or when I use random tooling vs ones dedicated to the TTS holders.
> 
> sbx


My choice would be the ER20 collets.  I have a variety of collets for end mills; 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", and 1/2".  This covers most tooling from .020" up to 5/8".  In addition, I have a set of metric collets from 1mm to 13mm in 1mm increments which allows me to mount drills from .020" to 1/2".  This fairly well covers any of the tooling that you might need.  
I have 13 ER20 collet chucks and 37 collets.  This allows me to have certain tooling set up and entered in my tool table for convenient use as needed.  Minimally, you should have enough chucks to set up any job without having to reload a tool.
If you make your own holders, it would be wise to include the seating flange in the design as that is what permits reproducible seating of your tooling on reinsertion.
I still use R8 collets for some machining, primarily when I have a larger tool or I need more z travel but 95% of the time I use the TTS tooling.


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## ronboult (May 14, 2015)

Making TTS ER 16 collet chucks is not really justified in my view bsello 168 is selling them for about $US8  plus shipping and they are ground accurate. You also need to buy the ER16 collets  to fit but these are also very cheap from CTC tools. Really good quality in the ones I have bought.

With TTS ER chucks you really don't need R8 shanked holders very much. Just buy the appropriate collets for your cutters. I have R8 ER32 chucks , R8 end mill holders and R8 drill chuck and I just don't use or require them any more. I regret buying them before I knew better. R8 shank holder require much more movement of the Head (Z axis) for clearance to remove the chuck and on my mill cranking up and down the Z axis is a real pain because of the low gearing.

My suggestion is buy a R8 3/4 Tormach Collet( special short flat bottom) , a few TTS ER16 or 20 holders, a few ER collets to suit your normal end mills and give them a try. Then if you don't like them or prefer R8 collets you have only spent a few dollars and somebody else will buy them from you so lost nothing.

Added
Like RJSakowski I use mainly ER20 holder for most of my tools. A few ER25 for 16mm endmills and I would like a few ER16 or smaller for very finework.
Ron


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## RJSakowski (May 14, 2015)

ronboult said:


> Making TTS ER 16 collet chucks is not really justified in my view bsello 168 is selling them for about $US8  plus shipping and they are ground accurate. You also need to buy the ER16 collets  to fit but these are also very cheap from CTC tools. Really good quality in the ones I have bought.
> Ron


Ron, 
 Can you give a link to bsello 168?  You can PM if you wish.
Thanks,

Bob


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## ronboult (May 14, 2015)

Hi Bob
bsello 168 is on eBay at 
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/wholesal...15?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3a7d82a647
for the TTS ER16 holders. They have other sizes. I have bought TTS Er20, TTSER25 and TTS 22mm Face mill arbors but they don't seem to list the latter. I had to request them and they then supplied. My TTS drill chuck arbors and TTS end mill holders are genuine Tormach from LMS in USA.

For collets, cutting tools etc I use CTC Tools. They have both a website and eBay store. Usually cheaper on their website  http://www.ctctools.biz

So far every thing I have bought from both these sellers has  exceed my expectations, nicely finished and good accuracy,  and I will buy from them again.
Ron


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## sbx (May 15, 2015)

Thanks for the additional info and links. 

To clarify, I wasn't thinking of making ER Chucks. But was thinking of machining out some custom holders. A couple of basic End mill holders, and I saw a neat project where a guy built a touch and edge finding probe for his TTS system. Yes, with the appropriate flange. He hooked it into EMC2 (Linux CNC) which I was leaning towards for my eventual CNC project for my mill. 
http://fadedbits.com/2011/02/touchprobe/


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## RJSakowski (May 15, 2015)

ronboult said:


> Hi Bob
> bsello 168 is on eBay at
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/wholesal...15?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3a7d82a647
> for the TTS ER16 holders. They have other sizes. I have bought TTS Er20, TTSER25 and TTS 22mm Face mill arbors but they don't seem to list the latter. I had to request them and they then supplied. My TTS drill chuck arbors and TTS end mill holders are genuine Tormach from LMS in USA.
> ...


Ron ,  Thanks for the link.


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## RJSakowski (May 15, 2015)

sbx said:


> Thanks for the additional info and links.
> 
> To clarify, I wasn't thinking of making ER Chucks. But was thinking of machining out some custom holders. A couple of basic End mill holders, and I saw a neat project where a guy built a touch and edge finding probe for his TTS system. Yes, with the appropriate flange. He hooked it into EMC2 (Linux CNC) which I was leaning towards for my eventual CNC project for my mill.
> http://fadedbits.com/2011/02/touchprobe/


My dial indicator has a 5/16" shaft so I use a collet and chuck for it.  It would be nice to free up the collet chuck so making a custom holder is not a bad idea.  Concentricity is not an issue there.  Ditto for the edge finder.


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