# Hafco AL900A lathe, is anyone able to identify what it really is?



## dgrev

Hello all.

I have bought a lathe in Outback Australia and would like to try and identify it and get a handbook.

It claims to be a HAFCO AL900A, which could mean it is a Shun Shin (Taiwan) lathe circa 1980 to 1985.
The same manufacturer also appears to have supplied nameplates in a dog's breakfast selection of
brands. Possibly Herless, Pacific, Enco etc. But I have yet to find any with those name plates that have
the same appearance, close yes, the same no.

See photo attached. Noteworthy is the main hand wheel located on the RHS.

I seem to be able to find various lathes on line which look similar, especially with the the 2 view glasses on the headstock, 
but they all have the traditional tumbler gear lever over on the LHS, but this lathe doesn't?

Apologies for the poor quality photo, but it is all I have until next weekend when I can collect the lathe.

Regards
Doug


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## Mitch Alsup

I can tell you the Norton Gearbox, the thread versus drive, and the forward/backward levers are in the same place as my Grizzly G4003G. 

What I don't see are the spindle RPM selection gear controls.


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## dgrev

Hello Mitch

The spindle speed has me puzzled too.

On the lathes I can find online, there are many that appear similar, but have a definite "step" or shelf in the area immediately above the thread/speed selector handles. Some have data plates on there others do not. See attached photo of a Jet 1236 which I found online last night. I have found photos of the Grizzly 4003 and am downloading a manual for it from the Grizzly site as I type, thanks for the info!

I am told that the main hand wheel being on the RHS side is an alteration for the English market, I think they actually mean "British" or
probably most correctly "British Commonwealth" market.

Once I can get access again next week I will take decent photos.

Regards
Doug


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## dgrev

On the bed of the Hafco lathe are 3 rods:
1) Lead Screw
2) Feed shaft
3) ? What does it do?

Also have found out that the actual manufacturer may be "Chizhou Jousehold Machine Tool Company" - note their spelling of "Household"!

Yet another brand name it may have been sold under is "Rex-Cut". 
Seems like the maker supplied a wide choice of name plates or by request whatever naming the seller/importer wanted.


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## Mitch Alsup

The third shaft has a lever on the carriage that turns the lathe forward, off, and reverse.
The shaft runs over to a switch near the norton gearbox.


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## pdentrem

See here, same headstock as a Rexcut I believe. 
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/belts-and-why-nobody-changes-them.13084/


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## dgrev

Mitch. Thanks for that, it now makes sense as to why there is no forward/reverse lever on the head stock and no power on off buttons mounted above the feed rate handles. 
Regards
Doug


Mitch Alsup said:


> The third shaft has a lever on the carriage that turns the lathe forward, off, and reverse.
> The shaft runs over to a switch near the norton gearbox.


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## dgrev

Pierre

It certainly looks the same except it has the power buttons. That article led me to another for a "Husky" which also looks similar.
By the time I get this thing, I will be able to call it a long list of names should it misbehave, all will be valid and none of them
will be swearing!


Thanks
Doug



pdentrem said:


> See here, same headstock as a Rexcut I believe.
> https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/belts-and-why-nobody-changes-them.13084/


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## NortonDommi

Spindle speed is directly below the HAFCO logo. Just about everything Hafco sell now has apron wheel on right. Much easier to use than on left.
Hafco now sells an AL-900B that still looks very similar - have a look at their website and download the manual it will bee nearly the same, in fact they advertise that they have been selling this model for over 20 years.
  Hope that helps.


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## dgrev

NortonDommi

That's the weird thing about it. I have done repeated web searches for the HAFCO website and can never find it.
I keep getting re-directed to Hare and Forbes and they do not list an AL-900. When I emailed them, they said they
had never stocked it.
Do you have a link please?

Regards
Doug



NortonDommi said:


> Spindle speed is directly below the HAFCO logo. Just about everything Hafco sell now has apron wheel on right. Much easier to use than on left.
> Hafco now sells an AL-900B that still looks very similar - have a look at their website and download the manual it will bee nearly the same, in fact they advertise that they have been selling this model for over 20 years.
> Hope that helps.


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## dgrev

I need to ask some dumb questions as it has been a long time since I was last on a lathe, which was Hercus and Myford stuff at school about 4
decades ago! 

A) Because this lathe does not have a "tumbler gear" handle like the lathes I learnt on, the direction change lever is the on/off lever on the far right of the carriage?

B) In the various manuals I have found online for very similar (but not the same) lathes the following seems to be the case:
1) Fitted with a control rod (3rd rod) as above description and thus direction and on/off  control.
2) Only 2 rods and with tumbler gear handle for direction control.
The closest manual I have found is a Chizhou PL300-1 CZ 1234 & CZ 1237 which has a confusing set of photos which depicts a 3 rod lathe with a tumbler gear setup and the stepped Norton gearbox.........

C) Does this type of lathe mean that to change between metric and imperial thread cutting requires cog swapping ie. take a cog off and install a different cog or is it a case of reversing the orientation of the cogs?
If cog swapping is the case, then there are no loose cogs with the lathe.......

The chuck and face plate are screw on style. Is it normal to have a reverse direction facility with a screw on chuck - isn't it going to come off?


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## NortonDommi

Hi Doug,
               It's nearly 1.30 here and just packing in for the night. My apologies, I had a quick look at the catalogue with wrong glasses on and got the number wrong.  I'm looking at page 27 of the latest catalogue which has the AL-960B on it. I've just had a look at their site and downloaded the brochure etc. which I attach below. By the look of it it is very similar. I hope that helps.
  As to Hare & Forbes I have found that they will say anything to make a sale, don't stock parts and have very little information. I dropped close to 14K with them and though I'd still buy from them if they had what I want at a better price than elsewhere I'd be checking everything carefully before I left the shop.
  If you got that lathe at a reasonable price you shouldn't have to many problems and the Taiwanese stuff is pretty good quality.
  I bought a new lathe just because I could and I wanted something new for once in my life. Previous was a 1920 Thornton flatbed that I rebuilt from scrap that was to big,(42" swing), for the garage when I bought the house. Lathes I'd used in the workplaces were all old to latest being around 1970 vintage. Just remember every machine is different and has it's own idiosyncrasies.


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## dgrev

Hello NortonDommi
A relative by marriage used to live in Takapuna, but now lives in Brown's Bay where my family comes from.
Thanks for your thoughts and the brochures. I know the glasses problem too!
There is certainly a lot of similarity between that lathe and the one I am getting. I am having to assert a lot of patience in that area as it is an estate
scenario and a friend of that family is handling the matter. It has to be moved across the workshop to below a strongback where it can then be lifted.
The event will require Pyramid style technology of 1" water pipe rollers!

Once I can get it to my shed, I can then clean it and report back here, it has a lot of dust and fluff on it.

Regards
Doug


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## NortonDommi

Hi Doug, 
              Small world aye? Brother has a place in a spot called Emerald but is shacked up in Sydney at the moment due to mining  downturn and sister in Melbourne. I have a bin of  bits of pipe specifically for moving stuff and would be lost without them.
  I'm sure that lathe will be a good one and look forward to seeing some more pictures.

  All the best,
  Barry.


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## dgrev

Barry
I am exercising patience till Tuesday or Wednesday when I can hopefully see it again and get those photos.

The relly who was at Takapuna was a LAME on Air New Zealand. He started off as an Appie with them
on Sunderland/Sandringham flying boats. Retired 5 to 10 years ago to Browns Bay. I would have loved to have had a 
ride on a Sunderland, but before my time. He said the corrosion was horrendous.

Regards
Doug


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## NortonDommi

Hi Doug,
               My brother in law is an aircraft engineer but what I know about planes is they have wings. I can remember the flying boats in the harbour when I was young and always wanted to go for a ride, amazing to watch taking off or landing.
  I was just looking for info on the AL-900A as my interest is piqued! 
Hare & Forbes indeed did sell a HafCo AL-900A lathe as I found a number of references to them. I know that there is a machine tool manufacturing company called Hafco from when I was researching my lathe for information that Hare & Forbes could not supply. At this time I found out that H&F used to be the Australasian agents for Hafco and used the name for their brand name,(it can also be argued that it is a combination of Hare And Forbes COmpany), which I think may have been before they had a falling out.
  The machines they sell now they brand as HafCo but are not made by Hafco and apparently not quite as good.

  Anyhoo here's a couple of screen shots that date back to around 2012 which prove that Hare & Forbes sold a lathe marketed as a HafCo AL-900A
so next time you talk to a Hare & Forbes salesman ask him if he has his pipe handy.


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## dgrev

Barry

Excellent thank you.

I note the user "Iron bark" and have tried to contact him through that site, but for some reason, despite having registered and got approval I am not allowed to make any posts or make any contact? Weird way to run a forum. 
I see he says in that attachment you sent me that he has a manual for a Hafco AL-900A, which is the reason I want to contact him.

Regards
Doug


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## Downunder Bob

Doug, firstly congratulations on buying your lathe. It looks remarkably like an earlier version of mine, which is Liang Dei 1216 from Taiwan. At least if yours is Taiwan madec you should have a fairly good machine. It looks ok for its age and quite modern for that time.

Hafco is the trade name for Hare and Forbes. they sell all sorts of machines mostly made in china but a few from Taiwan. your lathe does have that Taiwan look so you look to be in luck. Prior to buying my lathe I looked at Hafco and got so many confusing stories. It appears that they sell both chinese and taiwanese machines under the same model numbers if the specs are nearly the same, I heard so many bad reports I ended up buying from Modern tools in Melbourne and they only have taiwan lathes. Quite happy with my purchase.

The saddle handwheel on the right is a British / Australian convention, actually I prefer it, you tend to get less hot chips on your hands.

The extra gears for cutting metric may be already mounted under the cover at the left end of headstock. A 120 x 127 gear on same shaft.

the 3rd shaft under saddle is def a fwd stop and reverse switch, although if you have  screw on chuck I'd be pretty wary of using it unless there is some locking device.

More pictures will help, especially some close ups.

What size is the lathe and do you have a gap.

I hope that helps.


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## dgrev

Hello Bob

Thanks for the detailed email.

Heck, another brand name to add to my list!

I will have a look under the cover for the gears. Has to wait until Tues/Wed when the bloke is back in town who represents the estate. Patience lesson for me......

It looks to be a 12 x 36, however I am only assuming that from the 900 in the brand name.

I will attach some phone snaps I took inside the stand. The 4 jaw chuck and faceplate show the screw on. I could detect no other retention
means when I was looking at the 3 jaw insitu. Which puzzled me at the time.
The bloke said he has effectively the same lathe but with Herless brand. Ho
	

		
			
		

		
	









	

		
			
		

		
	
pefully he may know more.

Recollection is fuzzy, but I seem to recall a gap piece insitu.

Regards
Doug


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## dgrev

Bob

Would you list the gears that came with your Liang Dei please?

Don't go to the trouble of counting teeth, only if the gears are listed in your manual? I see from the advertising flyer that a "standard accessory" is the change gear set, whatever that includes?

Regards
Doug


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## Downunder Bob

Be a couple of days Doug, I'm away at the moment but heading home tomorrow. You'll also need to check if yopurs is imperial o`r metric lead`screw, the do make both, I specifically ordered imperial but of course I can still cut metric with the 120 x 127 gears. the norton gearbox gives a wide variety of pitches in both. I hope your pitch guide is good enough to read when you get it.

Interestingly yours is painted the same green as mine, and most Hafco machines are grey. The cabinet stand looks almost identical as well.

When you get some better photos we'll know a lot more.


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## Downunder Bob

G'day Doug, I got home a couple of hours ago had a quick look in handbook for lathe it just lists change gears, but doesn't itemise them I'll have a look tomorrow when I get out in the shop.

From memory I don't think there are any loose ones, just the ones set up on the lathe, which do include the 120 x 127, for metric, but they can be changed around in their configuration to get different ratios there is a chart on the front of the machine. Mostly all the feeds and speeds come from the Norton box.


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## dgrev

Bob.

Thanks for that.

I will wait for your reply tomorrow.

Regards
Doug


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## Downunder Bob

G'day Doug, see pics below my lathe is set up with 40T driving a 40T via the 127 as idler. there is also a 30T and a 23T in the box. This set up is for imperial gears. the metric set up uses the 120 x127 in the same position and some gears from the norton box also setting it up with the 30 and or 32 T will give more metric gears. The chart is self explanatory. sort of. Hope these pics help.


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## dgrev

Bob

Thanks for that.

I phoned today and should be able to get access (all going well) tomorrow arvo. Hopefully get some pics and get back to you.

Also to go on a missing gears hunt!

Regards
Doug


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## Downunder Bob

Hopefully you'll find them under the cover at headstock end.


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## dgrev

Bob

Got access to the lathe today at lunchtime. 

See attached photos. I forgot to get one of the plate above the
feed levers, but it was pretty damaged and not really readable.
Would you mind taking a clear photo of yours please as the
one in your post above is all blurry?

Also, the bronze coloured plaque on the gear cover has been
damaged as has the main plaque to the left of the L/R lever
(feed/thread lever).
Can I have a photo of yours too please?

There looks to be a 120/127T gear and 2 x 40 T gears currently on
the lathe with the 120 aligned. The family's agent says that he
has never seen any additional gears for the lathe. So looks like
I will have to try and source them.

Can the lathe do any metric threads at all without the 30T and 32T gears?
Or is it 30T and 23T?

Regards
Doug


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## Downunder Bob

G'day Doug, sorry about the blurry pic of the thread chart. I'll get another one tomorrow, Car is in the way at the moment. Looks like the gearing is the same. You can cut about half the metric range using the 120 x 127 gear, without using the 30 or 32 T gears, you will need them for the remaining  pitches. It will be clearer when I get you a better pic of the chart.

Speaking of Hafco and Hare & Forbes. I have been told by one of their reps that it is one and the same. Hare & Forbes is the name of the company and Hafco is the name of the product. I can't say it's true but that's what they told me. It appears that the bulk of their products come from china with a few of the better ones from Taiwan.

If Hare & forbes can't supply you the gears it looks like the LD ones will probably fit And i'm sure I can get the parts form the dealer in Melbourne. Juist check your lead screw is it 4TPI or 4mm pitch. Also the graduated collars on the cross slide and other handwheels are they calibrated in inches, mm or both

Your lathe looks to be in fairly good condition, needs a bit of a clean but not too bad considering its age.  So when do you move it in. can we ask what you paid for it? Do you get any tooling with it or do you have to start from scratch. Is there a decent tool shop in the Hill?


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## dgrev

Bob
Interesting, the rep tells a different story to H&F. Doesn't surprise me.

I will check lead screw, but thought that 8TPI was standard on most lathes?

It certainly needs a clean. No indication of there ever being a cover used. The agent said the owner mainly only used it for armature refacing, so hasn't done much work or hard work.  Sounds good, but time will tell.

When I have it in my custody, no problems about letting you know the price.

Tooling: 
Some taper drill bits. 
Both types of steady rest. 
4 jaw chuck.
Face plate. 
Live centre - how do you internally clean one of them? 
Chuck for tail stock. 
Knurling tool.
Several micrometers, inside gauge set (forget the name) that you use with a micrometer - telescoping dodads that are shaped like a T and have a screw lock? 
Magnetic base with dial indicator. 2nd one that is just the dial, suspect it is broken.
Boring bar and tool holder set - both carbide insert type.
So has the advantage that other than no materials what so ever, is ready to cut metal, after I clean it and level it.
Noticeably absent is conventional tool steel, I saw none at all!

Broken Hill has only Black w--ds for anything remotely close to lathe supplies. Not exactly bargain shopping......

I just noticed you are in Adelaide. Please advise best place to buy material stock?

Regards
Doug


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## NortonDommi

Hi Doug,
              I'm following your progress with interest, a new tool acquisition is always exciting. Sounds like basically ready to go.
Snap gauges is the name of the internal gauges. Live centres are usually sealed but if you want access to the bearings most have a screw in retainer at the back of the head. Insert tooling is great but HSS is just as great and better for some things so you may want to keep an eye out on auction sites.
  For inserts pretty hard to go past Ebay. I can buy a packet of 10 inserts for less than one locally and they will get delivered faster!
  Stuff out of Hong Kong 2 days. Other side of Auckland a week if they arrive.
  Looking forward to your pictures.


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## dgrev

Barry,

Indeed it is, I am being patient.........................
Points about **** noted.
Curiously I have just been exchanging emails with a Hong Kong supplier regarding an electronic part. I had 2 choices, them for AU$21 postage included (dear little sucker) or US seller US$15 plus US$219 postage (I kid you not) via **** Global Shipping. I have encountered this before and it is a consolidator contractor where everything gets sent to a central warehouse, unpacked, shoved in an air container and despatched - when full - which delays things.
Then unpacked at destination country, repacked and posted. They lost a water pump on me a while back, the address probably did not get assigned during the unpack/pack/repack fiasco.
Chinese supplier quoted 22 to 30 BUSINESS days delivery, so they did warn me. But those are the only 2 suppliers I can locate 
anywhere for that item. So went ahead thinking they were just being very pessimistic.
They provided a tracking number, so I have been watching it and it spent 6 days being packed! Far out, how can popping something the size of my thumb nail into an envelope take 6 days to pack???
I have upped them about it today and they are very worried I will give them bad feedback. I have told them I don't do the extortion feedback thing like you see so often on Tripwhinger and those other travel sites, I just want to know why it takes them 30 days from China and everyone else 5 to 12 days.
They have just told me it is out of their hands and is a registered requirement of ****. Something to do with the **** "Global Shipping". Groan, not that again.......
So, the point of all this, be thankful for the sellers who somehow have avoided GS and can use normal postage.
In the mean time, I have  a large heavy device in pieces on my bench waiting for the **** slow junk from China to arrive.

Providing all goes to plan tomorrow, I can get the lathe, not looking forward to the experience of transporting it in a 6 x 4 trailer ratchet strapped but still on its stand so very high centre of gravity...... 
Then use lengths of pipe as rollers and travel it from under the strong back in my shed the 15 odd metres to its home spot. 
Then to level it. 
Then to clean it. 
A good distraction from not being able to progress with the project on my bench


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## Downunder Bob

G'day Doug, sorry for delay, took a a new pic but having trouble loading into computer. managed to take pic from the other day and enlarge it. I hope this is clear and legible.

Yes Doug I'm in Adelaide and I'm happy to help where I can. I've got to say that materials supply here is not brilliant, You've probably heard we've shut down almost all our manufacturing. But I've learned to scrounge. Surely you have a steel merchant in the Hill, some will sell  you offcuts and bar ends cheap, they may also sell other types of metal. I'd avoid Bl'ods like the plague, way too expensive. Where do you get your welding supplies from, they may be able to help. 

Do you know any of the machinists that work in or for the mines they'll know. Ask the local scrap metal recyclers, some will sell to you, some won't.

Look around for a heavy fabrication shop they will sometimes let your forage in their scrap bins. I've found one close to me here that for a slab of beer a year I can forage in his bins whenever I want, I have picked up some amazing finds, some really big chunks of steel. 

Brass, CI and ally are harder to come by. also look for small private machine shops they will often help out. What materials are you actually looking for? Ask them for bar ends that they are going to throw out.

Another good source for high tensile steel shafting is car and truck repair shops, ask for old axles these are awsome steel, you'll need carbide tips to cut them. I found a guy here that makes band saw blades he made me a HSS blade for my little 5 x 5 band saw it cuts these shafts very well.

What are the holders you have for carbide inserts, if you can identify them its easy to buy inserts and HSS tool bits online, you just have to know the style and size. Are the makers numbers on the holders you have still readable if so post a photo. One place here in Adelaide is General tools at Cavan do have a range of HSS tools.


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## Downunder Bob

Doug I've found eBay rather infuriating sometimes many of their suppliers will not post to PO boxes in Aust. and its probably something to do with the consolidated shipping. lately I've been buying from Banggood and Kogan The quality of the chinese made stuff is still very variable but I can't fault the shipping if they say 21 days its usually within 10%. Also you are only dealing with one seller and that is Banggood. there is no middleman like ebay.


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## Mitch Alsup

dgrev said:


> Chinese supplier quoted 22 to 30 BUSINESS days delivery, so they did warn me. But those are the only 2 suppliers I can locate
> anywhere for that item. So went ahead thinking they were just being very pessimistic.
> They provided a tracking number, so I have been watching it and it spent 6 days being packed! Far out, how can popping something the size of my thumb nail into an envelope take 6 days to pack???



Day 1, accept your e-mail in some random city; create warehouse order form and transmit.
Day 2, order for arrives at warehouse and is placed at the end of the current work list
Day 3, still on to do list
Day 4, finder-worker assigned, goes through 20 acre warehouse looking for obscure part, finally finds part near end of day
Day 5, found part waits for packager-worker
Day 6, package worker packages part and drops it in the post.


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## dgrev

Bob

Picture is now very clear thanks.

Mines, very different situation these days. Effectively you can't even buy stuff off them, way too much paperwork.

The fabrication place does mostly the heavy stuff, building up bucket teeth, welding railway wagons, RSJs etc. Not anything that is turned on a lathe.

Good point about mechanics. I had thought axle steel would be just too hard to be practical.

See pic of holders, hopefully there are markings under the dust and fluff.

Regards
Doug



Downunder Bob said:


> G'day Doug, sorry for delay, took a a new pic but having trouble loading into computer. managed to take pic from the other day and enlarge it. I hope this is clear and legible.
> 
> Yes Doug I'm in Adelaide and I'm happy to help where I can. I've got to say that materials supply here is not brilliant, You've probably heard we've shut down almost all our manufacturing. But I've learned to scrounge. Surely you have a steel merchant in the Hill, some will sell  you offcuts and bar ends cheap, they may also sell other types of metal. I'd avoid Bl'ods like the plague, way too expensive. Where do you get your welding supplies from, they may be able to help.
> 
> Do you know any of the machinists that work in or for the mines they'll know. Ask the local scrap metal recyclers, some will sell to you, some won't.
> 
> Look around for a heavy fabrication shop they will sometimes let your forage in their scrap bins. I've found one close to me here that for a slab of beer a year I can forage in his bins whenever I want, I have picked up some amazing finds, some really big chunks of steel.
> 
> Brass, CI and ally are harder to come by. also look for small private machine shops they will often help out. What materials are you actually looking for? Ask them for bar ends that they are going to throw out.
> 
> Another good source for high tensile steel shafting is car and truck repair shops, ask for old axles these are awsome steel, you'll need carbide tips to cut them. I found a guy here that makes band saw blades he made me a HSS blade for my little 5 x 5 band saw it cuts these shafts very well.
> 
> What are the holders you have for carbide inserts, if you can identify them its easy to buy inserts and HSS tool bits online, you just have to know the style and size. Are the makers numbers on the holders you have still readable if so post a photo. One place here in Adelaide is General tools at Cavan do have a range of HSS tools.


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## dgrev

Mitch

That is as good an explanation as any, sounds feasible to me.

Regards
Doug



Mitch Alsup said:


> Day 1, accept your e-mail in some random city; create warehouse order form and transmit.
> Day 2, order for arrives at warehouse and is placed at the end of the current work list
> Day 3, still on to do list
> Day 4, finder-worker assigned, goes through 20 acre warehouse looking for obscure part, finally finds part near end of day
> Day 5, found part waits for packager-worker
> Day 6, package worker packages part and drops it in the post.


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## dgrev

Bob

Never heard of Banggood, will check them out.

Son had a phone issue with other company you mention, a warranty claim is frustrating but eventually happened. Main problem is that they make it impossible to phone them, so everything has to be via email and when they answer.

Regards
Doug



Downunder Bob said:


> Doug I've found eBay rather infuriating sometimes many of their suppliers will not post to PO boxes in Aust. and its probably something to do with the consolidated shipping. lately I've been buying from Banggood and Kogan The quality of the chinese made stuff is still very variable but I can't fault the shipping if they say 21 days its usually within 10%. Also you are only dealing with one seller and that is Banggood. there is no middleman like ebay.


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## dgrev

Good news, the lathe is now mine and is in my shed. Still sitting in the trailer, so still to unload.

It came with 4 micrometers, 2 in cases, small and medium. Also 2 smalls, which are unloved, gunked up and lying in the bottom of the drill
bit box.  

Now for a stupid question, the oil level is at the bottom of the LHS sight glass, where do I put more in?

For those who would like to see it, attached a photo of the head gears and pulleys.

Would anyone have a threading data plate that even if it doesn't have the same appearance as mine, has the same data? 
Bob kindly took a photo of his for me, but when comparing it to mine, the data is different.
As you will see below, parts of the data are not readable.

.


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## Downunder Bob

Doug, Not sure which sight glass you are referring too. I don't see any sight glass in your pics. Obviously not on the headstock as you've got belts in there. mine is a geared headstock and the sight glass is under the chuck. there is another one on the saddle, but where is yours.

The two small gunked up unloved micrometers are they good brand names, if so they will probably clean up ok, just don't use anything corrosive, that bottle of domestos in your pics is a worry. I'd soak them in INOX  similar to WD40 only much better IMHO. or similar. then dismantle and clean.

The "T" type bore hole gauges look ok just a basic clean and put away somewhere clean and safe. All the drill bits can be cleaned up and sharpened and put in  a safe place.

Not sure what you mean when you say my thread chart is different to yours. The imperial one is identical, the metric side of yours is too hard to read will need a better photo. The only two numbers I can read are the same, and I bet the rest are as well. 

The gears, belts and pulleys all look to be in fairly good condition I think overall you're in luck, especially if the price is right.


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## dgrev

Bob
1) There are 2 sight glasses on the front of the headstock either side of the name plate. See photo.




2) One of the mics is Mitutoyo, which IIRC was a good Jap brand in its day. Bottle of domestos is in photo taken at previous owner's shed, it did not come with the lathe. ;-)                INOX I need to look up, never heard of it.

3) Drill bits have a coating of light rust. I will need to go over them with say 600 wet and dry. Hopefully this won't affect retention powers of morse taper?

4) Have found a really good image of what appears to be the full thread chart in a PL-300 CZ1237 manual I downloaded from somewhere. So ignore this question please.

5) The price. I will PM you that. My logic was the following. One of those Port Adelaide landed-on-the-dock lathes costs about $1700, with a bore of IIRC 20 or 25mm and a minimal tool set. You do get a 4 jaw and steady rest etc.
Such things as T bore gauges, morse taper bits, boring bars etc are all add ons to the above, but included with this lathe.
But what really settled me on this lathe was that it has a spindle bore of somewhere around 36 to 38mm (I have yet to properly measure it). As far as I know, a new lathe of this capability would be in the 5 grand price range.
This lathe appears to have done little work, but unloved, so a + and a - in the same sentence.
Added to that, it was in town. Cost to get something like this shipped to BH from ADL, which spans 2 pallet spaces would be at least $300 with all the attendant trucky risks.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Ah the two round black things, now I see it the LH one is only half black. are they for the headstock bearings? Don't know where the filling point is.

Are they really as black as they look, oil might need draining and flushing, Not surprising it's probably pretty old. should be a small screw possibly SH grub screw where the bottom of the bearing housing would be,and a similar screw at the top.

Mitutoyo is / was a very good brand, give it a good soak and carefully take apart, have you ever taken a mic appart? clean, re-assemble and adjust should be good for a long time.

The drill bits likewise just soak them and clean and sharpen. the newly sharp cutting edge is the only critical part. I'd go easy on the wet and dry, it will remove metal. Try a tooth brush and a plastic scourer, won't remove any metal. The MT should be fine as long as you remove any soft rust and gunk, a few pit holes won't change anything. as long as they fit snug in the pockets they'll be fine.

If the new thread chart fits, go for it.

You've got a lot of stuff, just needs cleaning and sorting, find a cabinet to store it all in as you go. all you need is some cutting tools You don't have any HSS or carbide tips. As soon as you identify those tip holders you can order some inserts, You should probably also get some HSS toolbits, and a holder if you don't have one 5'16" is probably a good size. have a look at The Diamond Tool holder at  https://www.eccentricengineering.com.au Also for most tools try General Tools, the're at Cavan, I was out there today picking up a few bits. https://generaltools.com.au/ I believe they have a new online ordering system only been up and running a couple of weeks.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Another source of cheap steel and it is round, sort of. The round pins that are used as hinge pins on excavator buckets. have to be replaced regularly as they wear out quite quickly. good strong steel, but not really hard like axles.


----------



## pdentrem

In your photo you should notice the small holes at the top of the bearing bosses, this is where you add ISO 68 spindle oil and fill the sight glasses to half full. I would open the drain plugs, which I don’t see in any of your photos. So carefully pull the sight glasses straight out and watch for the o-ring! The oil will fall onto you toes for that extra special shiny nail finish. Once drained reinstall the glasses and top up again. Who know what is in those bearings today. May want to flush a couple times. They use only a couple ounces per bearing on average.

I circled the one I can see in your photo.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Inox. Google it. should be 3 or 4 places in the hill that sell it. I get the 5lt bottle and have a couple of squirt guns around the place use it on everything. replace WD40 CRC etc with it over 25 years ago.


----------



## dgrev

Everyone, thanks for your replies, for some reason I did not get the email telling me that this topic had new content, so will address each reply.


----------



## dgrev

Bob

1) No, that is just a photo lighting issue. RHS glass is full to the top line, nice coloured oil. LHS has just a bit of oil at bottom of glass, suspect reservoir is actually empty.

2) Mitutoyo mic lives to fight another day, cleaned up nicely with one small rust area on the 0.1, 0.2 graduations, can be read ok but just have to
be wary.
Other mic was a Moore. G has surface rust, but mic part is ok. Was 1 thou over reading and could not get it to O. In the end decided that the G was slightly sprung so resorted to banging it on vice - gently  (I can see all of you cringing). After about 15 increasingly heavier bangs it zeroed nicely and passed repeated tests. 
Both are 0 to 1" versions.
Then there is a boxed Chinese 0 to 1" and a boxed Chinese 0 to 2", both good as new, just Chinese though.

3) No screw at top, just a hole. I think I will put some flip top oilers in the holes to keep dust and grime out.

4) Points noted thanks.

5) A project will be to make a new plate. The old one is beyond hope. I have found that there is a clear sticker material that printers use. You do whatever graphics and print out on paper, then photostat that to clear material and stick to alloy, then another layer of clear over the top. Unless someone tells you, nobody notices that they are not originals. Advantage is if they get damaged, just peel and apply another lot.
The previous owner had a bad habit of hanging chuck key on thread selector handles, that is what did all the damage.

6) Update, I have found both 1/4 and probably 3/8 HSS tool bits of varying lengths at bottom of drill tray. So bonus!
I seem to have somewhere around 15 to 20 morse taper bits, unloved, but ok after a clean. So BIG bonus!
Several hooked HSS boring bars, look to be 5/16" stock.
Some carbide triangles, but nearly all have chipped points so am assuming they are now useless?

Jumping to conclusions here, but included was a spray can of Treflex cutting oil. It seems that this was used with most of the drill bits and is both the reason that they were filthy and the reason that they were not rusty.
Likewise the slide ways on the lathe.

Been doing a lot of cleaning this arvo.

7) Thanks for links.

Regards
Doug



Downunder Bob said:


> Ah the two round black things, now I see it the LH one is only half black. are they for the headstock bearings? Don't know where the filling point is.
> 
> Are they really as black as they look, oil might need draining and flushing, Not surprising it's probably pretty old. should be a small screw possibly SH grub screw where the bottom of the bearing housing would be,and a similar screw at the top.
> 
> Mitutoyo is / was a very good brand, give it a good soak and carefully take apart, have you ever taken a mic appart? clean, re-assemble and adjust should be good for a long time.
> 
> The drill bits likewise just soak them and clean and sharpen. the newly sharp cutting edge is the only critical part. I'd go easy on the wet and dry, it will remove metal. Try a tooth brush and a plastic scourer, won't remove any metal. The MT should be fine as long as you remove any soft rust and gunk, a few pit holes won't change anything. as long as they fit snug in the pockets they'll be fine.
> 
> If the new thread chart fits, go for it.
> 
> You've got a lot of stuff, just needs cleaning and sorting, find a cabinet to store it all in as you go. all you need is some cutting tools You don't have any HSS or carbide tips. As soon as you identify those tip holders you can order some inserts, You should probably also get some HSS toolbits, and a holder if you don't have one 5'16" is probably a good size. have a look at The Diamond Tool holder at  https://www.eccentricengineering.com.au Also for most tools try General Tools, the're at Cavan, I was out there today picking up a few bits. https://generaltools.com.au/ I believe they have a new online ordering system only been up and running a couple of weeks.


----------



## dgrev

Bob, thanks. Not something I am around, but worth keeping in mind, you don't know till you ask!



Downunder Bob said:


> Another source of cheap steel and it is round, sort of. The round pins that are used as hinge pins on excavator buckets. have to be replaced regularly as they wear out quite quickly. good strong steel, but not really hard like axles.


----------



## dgrev

Mate (don't know you name), thanks for the info. I will fit flip top oilers to those holes. Having them open just does not sit with me, especially considering how much gunk is in that area in my lathe. I suspected they may be the filler points as nothing else appeared to be. So have cleaned the holes out best I can - you have confirmed it now.
You say ISO 68, some of the manuals I have downloaded (doing the many manuals, bit of relevant info from each - trick) say ISO 20 others say ISO 32
and so it goes on. Really confused now?
I have heaps of Dexron II, but suspect it is not yellow metal safe or perhaps solder (babbit) safe. So will need to get hydraulic oil once I know which
ISO?
I will do the multi flush as you suggest. 

Regards
Doug



pdentrem said:


> In your photo you should notice the small holes at the top of the bearing bosses, this is where you add ISO 68 spindle oil and fill the sight glasses to half full. I would open the drain plugs, which I don’t see in any of your photos. So carefully pull the sight glasses straight out and watch for the o-ring! The oil will fall onto you toes for that extra special shiny nail finish. Once drained reinstall the glasses and top up again. Who know what is in those bearings today. May want to flush a couple times. They use only a couple ounces per bearing on average.
> 
> I circled the one I can see in your photo.
> View attachment 269798


----------



## dgrev

Next question. On top of apron/carriage there is an oil filler plug, very nicely marked "Oil". But no sight glass and no obvious drain plug.

So how do I know how much oil to put in there?

None of the manuals mention quantity.

Providing I can find a drain point I will multi flush that too.
======
Oh, other success was a magnetic base dial indicator. I was sure from the last time I was around lathes (about 3 decades ago) that they were spring loaded to give a dynamic run out reading. This thing was quite firm and stayed where ever I pushed it to. Hmmmm. Gave it a liberal dose of WD-40 (no INOX yet) and got it working. Chuffed!
It does however want to rest at 20 thou before zero and is at full travel 20 thou after 1". Is that normal?


----------



## dgrev

A quick change too post has been retrofitted at some point. Seems to be a mixed blessing. There is a through hole with a counter bore at the top, whatever that is for?
There is no indexing, but I did retrieve a spring out of a hole in the cross slide, but no ball. :-(
So went in search and found the original tool head. It has 4 nice index slots.
I think I feel a need to upgrade the quick change head to 4 index bores and reinstate the missing ball.


----------



## pdentrem

There originally had been a round pin with an angled top to stop the tool post from turning clockwise. Easily made up piece. I am on the road for the next few days so I cannot take any photos of it.

Lube oil suggested is usually something like Mobil DTE Heavy/Medium.

As for the apron oil filler. Are there any oil points on the apron other than that one? It maybe a single point reservoir to lube all points on the apron while mine has like a half dozen individual points to lube. My apron lower section has no sump for the gears, so I have to spray in lube oil and watch it run out afterwards.
Pierre


----------



## pdentrem

Could this be of use to you? The tumbler gear is not the same in the headstock but the rest of the lathe appears the same. I can even see the oil plug on the apron.

https://www.scribd.com/document/365546656/Enco-Manual-110-2034


----------



## dgrev

Pierre - could not get it through Scribd, I used the free trial a few months back and it has expired. But got it under the actual name of PL-300 from another site. Thanks Doug.

For anyone with an Enco lathe of other version, go here: <http://enco-lathe-manuals.blogspot.com/p/lathe-manual-downloads.html>

Update: I found the Enco manual at another site and it has different content to the PL-300 version, no download restriction:
<https://123slide.org/everything-is-okay.html?utm_source=enco-manual-110-2034>


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Next question. On top of apron/carriage there is an oil filler plug, very nicely marked "Oil". But no sight glass and no obvious drain plug.
> 
> So how do I know how much oil to put in there?
> 
> None of the manuals mention quantity.
> 
> Providing I can find a drain point I will multi flush that too.
> ======
> Oh, other success was a magnetic base dial indicator. I was sure from the last time I was around lathes (about 3 decades ago) that they were spring loaded to give a dynamic run out reading. This thing was quite firm and stayed where ever I pushed it to. Hmmmm. Gave it a liberal dose of WD-40 (no INOX yet) and got it working. Chuffed!
> It does however want to rest at 20 thou before zero and is at full travel 20 thou after 1". Is that normal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 269808



Doug that oil hole under the cap is either a small cup with some pipe cleaner wick type oil carriers to various parts under the saddle or it fills a little reservoir that one of the gear wheels under there dips into and then spreads it around. mine does that but does have  a little sight glass on the front of saddle. Open it and see what it looks like. or just pour 1/4 cup of oil in and see what come out. if nothing comes out pour a bit more in until it comes out then you'll know it's full.

In the photo immediately under the oil cap see that little ball oiler on the hand wheel use a pump type oil can to put a couple of squirts in there, and any others you see like it.


----------



## dgrev

Bob, thanks. Will do. Need to go buy some oil tomorrow morning. There is a car place that is open 7 days that has Penrite, hopefully they have some hydraulic oil. Regards Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> A quick change too post has been retrofitted at some point. Seems to be a mixed blessing. There is a through hole with a counter bore at the top, whatever that is for?
> There is no indexing, but I did retrieve a spring out of a hole in the cross slide, but no ball. :-(
> So went in search and found the original tool head. It has 4 nice index slots.
> I think I feel a need to upgrade the quick change head to 4 index bores and reinstate the missing ball.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 269809
> View attachment 269810



That QCTP looks to be the same make as the one I got with my lathe although mine is 3 sided not two. It's an Italian brand very good quality. Although the tool holders are very expensive so if you need to get more it's a pain. OK if you have enough. Looks like your previous owner did away with the detent pin same as me I think they are a pain. ok with the older 4 sided posts but just get in the way with QCTP. 

Because of the cost I have upgraded to an Aloris BXA. The cost of a new post genuine from USA Aloris with 4 holders was less than two new holders for the italian one.


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## dgrev

There are 2 holders on the post that you can see plus another 2, 1 of which is missing the long grub screw.
I need to have a play with it to see how the cam action gadgets on the top work.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob, thanks. Will do. Need to go buy some oil tomorrow morning. There is a car place that is open 7 days that has Penrite, hopefully they have some hydraulic oil. Regards Doug




Have fun shopping see if they have Inox. Not sure that it has to be hydraulic just straight oil without additives SAE 20 will be fine.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> There are 2 holders on the post that you can see plus another 2, 1 of which is missing the long grub screw.
> I need to have a play with it to see how the cam action gadgets on the top work.



They're an odd type of post but very well made and super accurate I just can't think of the name and it's to cold to go out in the garage now, does yours have a name on it, should be on the top. the big trap is there are a few similar looking ones all made in europe but they are not all interchangeable.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> There are 2 holders on the post that you can see plus another 2, 1 of which is missing the long grub screw.
> I need to have a play with it to see how the cam action gadgets on the top work.


They are fairly easy to understand once you star playing with them. In some ways I like them better than the Aloris, and I'll keep mine and use it it's pretty simple to change between i've modified my set up so I can quickly change from one post to the other, all three, each one does have an advantage. I'm just not paying the exorbitant price for sopare tool holders.


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## dgrev

Bob, with oils it seems the problem is to buy oil that does not have additives. The additive package is what the oil companies use as their "marketing point of difference" - remember the Castrol ads "Oils ain't just oils". Buying a non-additive oil is thus a problem. 
Your point about Chain Saw bar oil is noted thanks.
 When I got my first car, 20W40 was the standard oil as was 90 weight gear oil. Neither are made now. The closest you can get to the former IIRC is 15W40 in synthetic, 
and the latter is 80W90: despite any manufacturer's claims, it pour like water and it is the additive package that gives it the viscosity. One thing I know for sure, the wider the multi-viscosity the quicker it leaks out in the older vehicles. 
The Penrite company do a whole range of "older" oils for collector cars, product is based on decade of manufacture of the car.
So for oil issues I find myself having to shop for Penrite.
They actually make a Veteran spec oil (up to roughly 1919) and it says on the bottle to change it no later than 500 miles of use! That gives an idea of how much difference the additive package, detergent and an oil filter makes when current oil change intervals are around 10,000km (6,000 miles for the Americans reading this). Easiest way to get minimal additives is to go for hydraulic oil, but it typically comes in 44 gallon drums or ISO cubes as most hydraulic devices are losey or large or both. 
Auto tranny fluid is hydraulic oil, but with additives, I have plenty of it but can't use it in lathe.


----------



## dgrev

Carbide inserts - are the Chinese ones on ebay ok or cheap rubbish?


----------



## Mitch Alsup

2 points::

1) Hydraulic oil is often available in 1 gallon bottles. I use ISO 32 in my Lathe headstock and carriage and ISO 68 for the ways.

2) I have had good luck so far with the cheapo Chinese carbide bits. The only one I have damages is one that took a hit by a jaw on the 4-jaw while spinning at 1000 RPMs. Broke a sizable chip off the corner. Still using it on the other corner.


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## dgrev

Mitch. Thanks for that. I did wonder if the Chinese bits were inferior or not. So hard to know these days if the name brand stuff is just the Chinese stuff rebranded at 4x the price or is genuinely of better quality.


----------



## Mitch Alsup

dgrev said:


> I did wonder if the Chinese bits were inferior or not.



Notice that I very carefully did not compare the Chinese carbide to anyone elses carbide.
I just stated that for the things I have been machining they work well for me on my lathe.
I have used them on 4140, mild steel, and 6061T6

I looked at it this way:: at those prices I can/could afford to receive pure junk and not get upset about it.
On the other hand, the carbide tipped tools I used on my Taig micro-lathe lasted 10+ years without even appearing to wear (6061 T6 only)


----------



## dgrev

Mitch, photos attached of some of what came with my lathe. There doesn't appear to be any markings on this stuff, but by the stile of the boxes I assume Chinese. 
The ones with the bits removed, the bits typically have 2 of the 3 tips chipped off.
There are some bit holders marked IIRC "Serco" that I haven't photographed yet.


----------



## Mitch Alsup

Wipe 'em down with oil, and get fresh inserts.

Ebay is generally where I look, but do read the catalogs by the top carbide manufactures--it will give you a lot better insight as to what you might see on ebay/amazon in terms of chip breakers, coatings,...


----------



## dgrev

Mitch. Ok, what are the top names? Showing my total ignorance here.....


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## dgrev

Spent this arvo clearing a spot for the lathe and then getting it into that spot and then leveling it. Used the top of the cross slide as a reference with it parked at the spindle, no problems. Then used the 2 x "V"s at the tail stock end and could not get it. Very curiously, the "V"s are different heights - wonder why?
So took the carriage down that end and used the same location on the cross slide and got it level (no twist).
I have a Gunner's Quadrant somewhere that is illusive at the moment, once I find it, I will use it to confirm the leveling as it is very accurate. Only had a 3' carpenter's level this arvo.

First question: 
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
  - where will I get the 30T and 32T gears that are missing along with the underside clamp plate for the steady rest? 
In photo is the original tool head - I think Bob wanted to see it?


----------



## dgrev

Next question: is it normal to get spare 3 jaw chuck jaws?
I was under the impression that you only need to run the jaws out of the chuck and swap end to make them inside jaws, so do not need
a set of opposite jaws?
Is there anything odd or different about these? See photo.
- Also there is a brass cog, I seem to recall seeing something somewhere on the internet and it said there should be 2 of them and they go in the apron? Worries me that there is this lonely one that is not in the apron!
- Does anyone recognise the little cylindrical 
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
stepped dohickey? At the bottom end there is a small plastic insert?


----------



## dgrev

For those who were curious, attached photos of the oil level glasses and some of the tools that came with the lathe.
	

		
			
		

		
	












I didn't get as far as the shop, so will need to get some oil tomorrow.
Likewise, the motor belt looks like it has seen better days. See photo.
	

		
			
		

		
	





That is easy enough to change. However the norton head belt has started to delaminate, realistically it will probably last some time. Advice please on replacing it:
1) Do a tear down, a lot of work I assume to dismantle the head?

2) Cut belt and replace with one of those linked things. What brand etc please?


Does anyone recognise the hexagonal stock tool on the right, I am assuming it is some sort of boring tool but can't see the point of it unless it is to avoid using a drill first?





Regards
Doug


----------



## BenW

Self-centering chucks usually have on set of id and one set of od jaws while on individual ones you can just flip the jaws since the threads are straight. 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## pdentrem

For the belt for the spindle, best to use a link belt. Fenner is the maker of choice in North America, no clue for Australia.


----------



## Downunder Bob

pdentrem said:


> For the belt for the spindle, best to use a link belt. Fenner is the maker of choice in North America, no clue for Australia.



Fenner and Gates are both available in Australia.


----------



## dgrev

Bob who would be best to purchase a belt from please?


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob who would be best to purchase a belt from please?



Off the top of my head Doug, no idea. It's a bloody long time since I bought a belt and that was a car belt skinny one "A" section I think, about 4 cars ago. I will make some enquiries for you, though it's a bit late for today. From the photo yours looks like "B" section, but could also be a fancy one so you do need to get it identified.

Do the belts on the lathe have any I.D. marks on them, are they the same? The motor belt should be pretty easy to get off, Take it to the car place you mentioned they might be able to identify it for you. 

You could also try Southstate industrial supplies or formula motor parts they should be able to measure the belt an possibly supply one. You need to decide if you want to use a regular belt on the motor or a link belt as well as on the spindle. If they are both the same section then you will just need to buy a length of the right section link belting and you're in business.

Give the link belt some thought, while I've not tried it, a number of people on this and other forums say that they are better on a lathe than plain belts. Apparently less vibration. 

Once you get that motor belt off, try to identify it If those places cant supply anything let me know and I'll ask around here in Adelaide. They should be able to supply and probably cheaper by the time you factor in postage. Let me know how you go


----------



## dgrev

Bob. Will do. It looks to be a B section, certainly not an A. The motor belt should be in stock here, it is only just holding together, so needs doing. 

But it does not seem like anyone here stocks the link belt. May have to wait until I go to Adelaide next. The head belt still has life in it, so not urgent.

I priced a 30 or 32T gear from a certain place in Adelaide you know well. $185 plus GST plus postage! I am not paying 10% of the price of a lathe just for a little cog, so will put that idea on the back burner and only get serious if I need to cut a 1.5mm metric thread. Or may buy one in from USA where the prices are reasonable, until you include postage that is.

The saga today was getting some ISO 32 hydraulic fluid. Got to do a tour of all the car parts places and industrial supply places including the 2 you mention above. One had ISO 68, another ISO 46. Wanted 5L so that ruled out the likes of Cat and the truck supplies as they all have 20L minimum size packages - won't use that much in 200 years! Ended up at Blackwoods as the only stockist, weird blue colour, but will do. 

By the way, those 2 sight glasses in the head have a tiny little hole in them above the H letter, which I am guessing is the over fill safe guard, one
guess how I found out.....
They have a plastic or rubber collar on them, not an "O" ring to retain them.

The apron filler point gives no indication of when enough, until you notice the puddle coming out from the chip tray.....

Did some turning this arvo. Managed to scrounge up some axle steel. By the crikey it is hard! Used one of the chipped tungsten carbide bits that came with the lathe. Bit chattery, so was only taking 20 thou cuts to face end where it had been oxy'ed off. Think I may have rpm too low as am not used to the carbide twice as fast idea. 

Very out of touch, it has been 3 decades since I last was on a lathe, all a bit intimidating, but good to be making chips again!

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Doug You may never need the 30 and 32 T gears I wouldn't worry about them until you have a definite need. they should be able to get the link belt in, but if they can't or won't let me know and I can get some for you and post it up if you need it before your next trip downhere. Just need to be certain of the section and the length.

Yes the axle steel is hard and tough, you can cut with HSS, but at about half normal speed. but carbide should be at least double normal. I have taken some cuts about .060 but with new tips and my lathe is, well new, and it's nice and tight. 

Have you been able to identify the tip holders yet. If they don't have ID numbers on them or they cant be read you can work it out, need to get on the website of a major manufacturer of them and they have charts showing the dimensions. but it's pretty complicated. Might be easier just to order some new ones. but even that's tricky because you need to know the system before you can decide which one you want. 

Have you been able to ID your QCTP yet? what is the largest size shank that will fit your QCTP, mine takes 16mm pretty common size. Also you said there was a grub screw missing from one of the holders, can you show a photo of it alongside one that is not missing plus length and Dia x pitch.

Are there any small private machine shops in the Hill. I know there used to be, they did a lot of contract work for the mines and other contractors.


----------



## dgrev

Bob. Just thought it would be good to have 1.5mm thread ability. Working on theory that if I do need it, could be a long wait to get gears.

Thanks for offer of link belt. Should be ok till I get down there. What suburb are you in if you don't mind me asking?

Tip holders, a couple have a SECO sticker on them. The rest appear Chinese. Will examine for markings and get back to you.

QCTP - no idea of brand, did not notice one, but wasn't looking either.  Need to measure grub screw and get back to you. I do know the darn thing rotated several times whilst I was machining the axle. Had to resort to giving the handle a solid whack with a rubber mallet to get it to stay put. I was probably loading the tool too much with the chipped carbide bit but it did surprise me that doing as tight by hand as I could was not sufficient.

There is one private turning and milling place left. He must be pushing up to retirement now, many years since he had anyone working for him. I think his bread and butter are brake drum and brake disk refacing these days.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Yes unfortunately 1.5mm is a reasonably common pitch, perhaps if you were to measure your 40T gear od and id. if it matches mine I should be able to get a spare 30 and 32 T from the people I bought my lathe from.

Get to know the private guy he may have lots of valuable information for you, he may even know where to get various materials from in your area. 

I am in Eden Hills down the hill a bit from Blackwood.


----------



## NortonDommi

Hi Doug,
               It looks like there are enough legible numbers to use on the data plate to work out the ratios. 
   If you take the thread on the data plate that is the same pitch as the leadscrew and the teeth on the change gears you can work out the starting point to calculate the rest. Pretty easy once you get going as most of it is just progression. 
  Most of the information looks like it is legible so might pay to just make a new data plate. Nothing worse than trying to decipher faded letters/numbers on a Winter night.
  Attached is a program called 'Lathe Gears'. Once your ratios are entered into the appropriate place you can find threads that are not on the data plate and it will also tell you what change gears you will need.


----------



## dgrev

Barry. Excellent, thank you. Looks reasonably straight forward other than I need to work out whats in the change gear box. Thanks Doug.


----------



## dgrev

Barry. I entered all the data, very straight forward. Any suggestion as to why the programme will not let me save on the first page?
It wants to write to a file named LatheGears.ini. I have installed the programme multiple times, but no file of that name appears. So I created one, that did not work either.
I cannot get the "Calculate Gear Ratios" to work even when I dial it up to 20% error?
So looks like the missing LatheGears.ini file is crucial.

UPDATE:
Figured our the problem the install programme puts everything in the root area of c:\Program Files (x86), but this is a protected area and I would have to open it up to allow disk writes. Probably not a good idea. So I made a new directory elsewhere and then pasted the files into that area. All works good now. I can now input and save my ratios. Looks like there is no magic to be had, my existing cobs won't do 1.5mm laid out the way they are although the programme is telling me to swap the 40T and the 127T. Will investigate that as worth a try.
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Next question. On top of apron/carriage there is an oil filler plug, very nicely marked "Oil". But no sight glass and no obvious drain plug.
> 
> So how do I know how much oil to put in there?
> 
> None of the manuals mention quantity.
> 
> Providing I can find a drain point I will multi flush that too.
> ======
> Oh, other success was a magnetic base dial indicator. I was sure from the last time I was around lathes (about 3 decades ago) that they were spring loaded to give a dynamic run out reading. This thing was quite firm and stayed where ever I pushed it to. Hmmmm. Gave it a liberal dose of WD-40 (no INOX yet) and got it working. Chuffed!
> It does however want to rest at 20 thou before zero and is at full travel 20 thou after 1". Is that normal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 269808



Doug, that oil cap looks very similar to one on my lathe that is situated on the front face of the saddle, it also has a sight glass, but then it is a later model. There is another one, smaller on the top of the norton feed box, but no sight glass, the book says to add oil until it overflows. there is an oil reservoir hidden out of sight that the gears dip into and spread it around that way. So I guess your saddle one works the same way.

The dial indicator that hangs at .020" can have one or more of a couple of faults.
1. the shaft is very slightly bent, usually caused by dropping. Look for wear marks on one side of the shaft in that area.Put a very small amount of polishing compoud on it and work it in and out, then clean and lube it.
2. A small amount of dried oil, on the internal gears, or even a tiny splinter of something on the gear rack. Clean out internally, lube and your back in business. Often caused by being opened up in an unclean area.

Fine clock oil is the best to use in these things, any really light oil will do, I again use my trusty inox. also use it on the internals of mic's.


----------



## dgrev

Bob
I went looking after reading your email and there is a flip top oiler snuggled up alongside the lower 40T cog under the side cover on the Norton box. It is mounted on an elbow so feeds horizontally into the GCB. It does seem to be an overflow design. 
It took probably 10 oil can squirts. But no way to know how much was still in there.
I did see on a Youtube video that some brands have a felt strip with holes in it to drip the oil onto the gears. Seems very rudimentary to me.

It is not that the dial indicator hangs, it now has nice movement over the whole range. Maximum down travel is -.020" and maximum up travel is 1.020". May just be the way it is designed so that you can snuggle it up to the job and apply pressure until it reads 0. Likewise if running an eccentric of up to 1" with 20 thou overrun so that you know that you have overrun rather than think it is spot on at 1" and it actually going over?


----------



## dgrev

Did some boring today on mild steel hollow bar.
I had to abandon the axle steel as the 3/4" morse taper drills bounced off it. The material seems to get harder the further out the diameter. The inner 1/2" of the diameter cut lovely, once I changed up to the 3/4" bits, even with resharpening, they would not bight. 
Using a carbide insert tool that came with the lathe gave a very squeally experience, so much so I resorted to both ear plugs and ear muffs. Looking at the photos I took to post here, I now see why, damaged point on the carbide insert. Does anyone know why my photos get stood on edge when I upload them?






As the finish was so rough, I changed over to the tool in the next photo.




The result using power feed at a slow rate is below. You are looking at an I.d of about 49mm.




I do have this tool, pic below.





But as it is around 5/16" dia and I need to bore, well, clean up the bore, to a depth of 85mm I do worry it will chatter even worse than the first carbide tool due to flexing.

Criticisms/suggestions etc please?

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob
> I went looking after reading your email and there is a flip top oiler snuggled up alongside the lower 40T cog under the side cover on the Norton box. It is mounted on an elbow so feeds horizontally into the GCB. It does seem to be an overflow design.
> It took probably 10 oil can squirts. But no way to know how much was still in there.
> I did see on a Youtube video that some brands have a felt strip with holes in it to drip the oil onto the gears. Seems very rudimentary to me.
> 
> It is not that the dial indicator hangs, it now has nice movement over the whole range. Maximum down travel is -.020" and maximum up travel is 1.020". May just be the way it is designed so that you can snuggle it up to the job and apply pressure until it reads 0. Likewise if running an eccentric of up to 1" with 20 thou overrun so that you know that you have overrun rather than think it is spot on at 1" and it actually going over?




All good. Drip feed is sufficient for the application, those gear in the norton box are not highly loaded some chinese lathes use plastic gears.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Carbide inserts - are the Chinese ones on ebay ok or cheap rubbish?



They're usually ok for what we do, they'd be no good in a production shop, but for hobby mostly they're good enough.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Did some boring today on mild steel hollow bar.
> I had to abandon the axle steel as the 3/4" morse taper drills bounced off it. The material seems to get harder the further out the diameter. The inner 1/2" of the diameter cut lovely, once I changed up to the 3/4" bits, even with resharpening, they would not bight.
> Using a carbide insert tool that came with the lathe gave a very squeally experience, so much so I resorted to both ear plugs and ear muffs. Looking at the photos I took to post here, I now see why, damaged point on the carbide insert. Does anyone know why my photos get stood on edge when I upload them?
> View attachment 270043
> 
> 
> As the finish was so rough, I changed over to the tool in the next photo.
> View attachment 270044
> 
> The result using power feed at a slow rate is below. You are looking at an I.d of about 49mm.
> View attachment 270045
> 
> I do have this tool, pic below.
> View attachment 270046
> 
> 
> But as it is around 5/16" dia and I need to bore, well, clean up the bore, to a depth of 85mm I do worry it will chatter even worse than the first carbide tool due to flexing.
> 
> Criticisms/suggestions etc please?
> 
> Regards
> Doug


That axle steel will be softer in the middle, because when it's heat treated the centre doesn't cool as quickly when it's quenched.

Jumping From 1/2" to 3/4" is a big step for that hard material, try 5/8" what speed are you running? is the drill properly sharpened? What are your drill sharpening skills?

Re chatter and squealing. When boring always use the thickest boring bar that will fit, and keep the overhang (stickout) of the bar from the holder to as little as you can get away with.

You will also need to have a very sharp tool, those broken carbide bits are not really good enough. can you dress them up with a diamond lap, a sharp tool can make a world of difference. Also check the gibs on the crossfeed and compound slide, make sure they are as firm as you can without binding. Make sure the compound is wound back so that the tool post is as near as you can to directly over the compound swivel. check that the tool post is locked down tight, sometimes you can get a situation where the tool post doesn't actually sit on the top of the compound but rather sits on the step on the hold down bolt, allowing it to rock.. Check you are running the right speed for the metal and the tool. experiment with depth of cut and feed, increase one and reduce the other.

Check that the tool is exactly on center, what top rake do you have, also front and side clearance, and that the bottom of the bar is not rubbing, Boring is always more critical than outside turning.


----------



## tjb

Here are some photos of a 10 x 24 lathe I bought/restored/sold last year.  It is a Kin Shin, which is essentially a clone of the Jet P1024.  Note from the photos the main hand wheel, like yours, is on the RHS.  From the photo on the nameplate, you can note: 1. it was made in Taiwan; 2. it was built in 1976; 3. it was originally sold in Australia.  I bought this lathe from the man who bought it new in Australia and has had it sitting in his shop - unused - for decades here in Georgia, USA.  The comment above about the main hand wheel location applying to an English or Commonwealth market will most likely also apply to the Australian market.

This turned out to be a VERY nice lathe.  I bought it because it looked like it would be an interesting project to restore (it was), and I sold it because, with two other larger lathes, I didn't think I would miss it much (I did).  Wish I had it back.

Yours is clearly a larger version, but I suspect it's essentially the same lathe.  As I understand it, in the mid- to late seventies, several Taiwanese mom-and-pop operations were competing for the US/European market.  Jet won, and the others simply went away.  Since all were acquiring raw parts from the same manufacturer, the assembled units were nearly identical except for cosmetic differences and nameplates.

I have loads of other photos I can send you if it will help.  Just send me a PM.

Also, I engaged in a handful of posts seeking information on some restoration issues.  Not sure how to attach them here (any counsel from other members?), but I assume you can do a search on my member ID ('tjb') and find them.  If that doesn't work, we can try a Plan B.  I have noted no appreciable differences between my lathe and the Jet P1024. 

Regards,
Terry


----------



## dgrev

Terry

I will do a search for "TJB", that should find your posts.

Being an Aussie machine, the motor would be 50Hz 240v, that would last a few seconds or less if hooked up to US power?

Australia was part of the British Commonwealth. We take part in the "Commonwealth Games" to this day and the Queen of England is on the back of all our coins. Like England we have a Prime Minister, not a President.

Do you have any idea who the common manufacturer was that all were buying their parts from?

Regards
Doug


----------



## dgrev

Bob

Points all noted with thanks.

Drill bit - I am ok to about 3/8th, after that I struggle a bit to 1/2" as I have quite a small 2 wheel grinder. The bigger bits are a challenge due to wheel size.

The crossfeed and compound are that snug, that any more and it would be hard work to turn the handles!

I will have to investigate a diamond lap, don't have one.

Regards
Doug


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> C) Does this type of lathe mean that to change between metric and imperial thread cutting requires cog swapping ie. take a cog off and install a different cog or is it a case of reversing the orientation of the cogs?
> If cog swapping is the case, then there are no loose cogs with the lathe.......



Mine had a different set of change gears to convert from Imperial to metric.  Unfortunately, I don't remember the specs and no longer have access to the lathe.

Regards


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Terry
> 
> I will do a search for "TJB", that should find your posts.
> 
> Being an Aussie machine, the motor would be 50Hz 240v, that would last a few seconds or less if hooked up to US power?
> 
> Australia was part of the British Commonwealth. We take part in the "Commonwealth Games" to this day and the Queen of England is on the back of all our coins. Like England we have a Prime Minister, not a President.
> 
> Do you have any idea who the common manufacturer was that all were buying their parts from?
> 
> Regards
> Doug


Doug,

The motor on the machine was the only thing missing.  As you noted, it would not have worked anyway here in the US.  I bought a Leeson motor (had to modify the attachment bracket), and it worked fine.  Most likely, the motor was removed when the owner relocated to the US (several decades ago), and the machine was never used since.

I did quite a bit of research when I acquired this machine but was never able to identify the original parts manufacturer.  Best of my recollection, it was essentially the ONLY manufacturer for what became the Jet-type machines.  (Jet seems to have won the competition for most appealing to the Western market.)  The other feature (again, best of my recollection) was that the manufacturer was indeed based in Taiwan.

I located an owner's manual for the Jet P1024 which contained quite a bit of information.  If you need a copy, I can send it to you by PM.  (Again, as a practical matter, it seems to be essentially the same as your model except for obvious size differences.)

Also, Doug, I just sent you a separate post regarding change-gears necessary to convert from Imperial to metric threading.  There IS a different set of gears.  Mine had them with the machine.  (It was really a pristine find!)  Unfortunately, I have no way of getting details for you.

It never became necessary, but it was my understanding (from other very knowledgeable H-M members and from outside sources) that many of the Grizzly parts are 'possibly' interchangeable.  A word of caution - evidently, some parts may appear to be interchangeable but in fact are not.  Mercifully, I never had to find that out the hard way.

Let me know if I can be of any assistance to you.

Regards,
Terry


----------



## Downunder Bob

tjb said:


> Mine had a different set of change gears to convert from Imperial to metric.  Unfortunately, I don't remember the specs and no longer have access to the lathe.
> 
> Regards


Most medium to large lathes use two gears on the same shaft 120 x 127 T, so it's a two step gear train. that will give an exact metric thread. Most smaller lathes, because the 127 x 120 is too big to fit, use 60 x 63 T gears as its almost the same ratio, there are charts that will show the error.


----------



## tjb

Downunder Bob said:


> Interestingly yours is painted the same green as mine, and most Hafco machines are grey. The cabinet stand looks almost identical as well.


Also the same green as my Kin Shin.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob
> 
> Points all noted with thanks.
> 
> Drill bit - I am ok to about 3/8th, after that I struggle a bit to 1/2" as I have quite a small 2 wheel grinder. The bigger bits are a challenge due to wheel size.
> 
> The crossfeed and compound are that snug, that any more and it would be hard work to turn the handles!
> 
> I will have to investigate a diamond lap, don't have one.
> 
> Regards
> Doug


Diamond lap is easy to find most good hardware shops or kitchen shops will have them, they are used to sharpen knives.

a small flat blade about 4" long plastic coated handle at one end, flat diamond surface on other end, they come in at least 3 graded, coarse, medium and fine, may be others, fairly cheap. use them to hone the carbide tips and also HSS.

Speaking of diamonds, did you have a look at the diamond tangential tool holder I mentioned earlier. Look up eccentric engineering. Australian invented and made. makes sharpening toolbits a dream, just one face to grind. they also have some super hard cobalt tool bits. I use the size 12 on my lathe but you'll have to measure the height from the center height to the base of your tool holder, there is a diagram on their website.


----------



## Downunder Bob

tjb said:


> Also the same green as my Kin Shin.


Strange because I tried to find Kin Shin in Taiwan and had no luck But I can find Liang Dei.Maybe they have changed their name, who knows. strange things happen in Taiwan, I used to rna business here importing goods from Taiwan, and found I could get identical items from different factories. 

I have heard that a small group of parent factories will contract out the manufacturing of all the parts they need to a number of smaller factories. The parent factories will then assemble all the parts into finished products, which they then sell to a group of wholesaler exporters, who then onsell to the importing retailers, and this is how we end up with having identical looking machines, but with different names. one batch will be painted green and another will be blue and another grey etc.


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Good news, the lathe is now mine and is in my shed. Still sitting in the trailer, so still to unload.
> 
> It came with 4 micrometers, 2 in cases, small and medium. Also 2 smalls, which are unloved, gunked up and lying in the bottom of the drill
> bit box.
> 
> Now for a stupid question, the oil level is at the bottom of the LHS sight glass, where do I put more in?
> 
> For those who would like to see it, attached a photo of the head gears and pulleys.
> 
> Would anyone have a threading data plate that even if it doesn't have the same appearance as mine, has the same data?
> Bob kindly took a photo of his for me, but when comparing it to mine, the data is different.
> As you will see below, parts of the data are not readable.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 269726
> View attachment 269729
> View attachment 269730
> View attachment 269731
> View attachment 269732
> View attachment 269733
> View attachment 269734


Dave,

Attached is a photo with threading plate data that seems to be identical to yours.  (It's the green plate on the right with the large 'KS-3.5FK' on it.)  Unfortunately, it's rather small, and you lose some clarity if you zoom in, but on first blush it does seem to be identical.  Hope it helps.

With regard to oil levels and sight glasses, I had an issue with what I thought was a major leak on the apron (where there is no sight glass).  Turns out that these older machines are notorious for leaking because the shafts are not adequately sealed where they mount to the casing.  I over-filled my apron and - surprise, surprise - it leaked out to just below the shaft.  As it turns out, that's exactly the correct level.

Regards


----------



## tjb

Downunder Bob said:


> Strange because I tried to find Kin Shin in Taiwan and had no luck But I can find Liang Dei.Maybe they have changed their name, who knows. strange things happen in Taiwan, I used to rna business here importing goods from Taiwan, and found I could get identical items from different factories.
> 
> I have heard that a small group of parent factories will contract out the manufacturing of all the parts they need to a number of smaller factories. The parent factories will then assemble all the parts into finished products, which they then sell to a group of wholesaler exporters, who then onsell to the importing retailers, and this is how we end up with having identical looking machines, but with different names. one batch will be painted green and another will be blue and another grey etc.


Bob,

That's consistent with what I learned as well - with a bit more detail.  My understanding (which may be incorrect) is that after Jet won the marketing prize, the smaller competing factories simply vaporized.  In any event, the good news is that very nearly ALL of these vintage machines are essentially alike.  Makes it a bit confusing trying to identify a specific brand, but comforting to know that if you find detail on any one of them, you've got it on all of them.

Regards, and thanks for the history lesson.

P.S.:  Several have posted this comment and I most certainly agree: These are extremely well-built machines!  I was at the seller's large shop to look at some tooling that he had for sale (he's in his late 80's and selling off much of his stock).  I saw this little gem sitting among some other large tools, basically just collecting dust.  It was immediately obvious that this was a solid little machine.  My number one 'go-to' lathe is a 2000's vintage 15 x 40 floor model, and it was clear that the Kin Shin, although smaller, was a much sturdier machine.  Should have kept it.


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Good news, the lathe is now mine and is in my shed. Still sitting in the trailer, so still to unload.
> 
> It came with 4 micrometers, 2 in cases, small and medium. Also 2 smalls, which are unloved, gunked up and lying in the bottom of the drill
> bit box.
> 
> Now for a stupid question, the oil level is at the bottom of the LHS sight glass, where do I put more in?
> 
> For those who would like to see it, attached a photo of the head gears and pulleys.
> 
> Would anyone have a threading data plate that even if it doesn't have the same appearance as mine, has the same data?
> Bob kindly took a photo of his for me, but when comparing it to mine, the data is different.
> As you will see below, parts of the data are not readable.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 269726
> View attachment 269729
> View attachment 269730
> View attachment 269731
> View attachment 269732
> View attachment 269733
> View attachment 269734


Oops!

Here's the photo.  Plus another that gives some detail on the far right section.

Regards,
Terry


----------



## Downunder Bob

tjb said:


> Bob,
> 
> That's consistent with what I learned as well - with a bit more detail.  My understanding (which may be incorrect) is that after Jet won the marketing prize, the smaller competing factories simply vaporized.  In any event, the good news is that very nearly ALL of these vintage machines are essentially alike.  Makes it a bit confusing trying to identify a specific brand, but comforting to know that if you find detail on any one of them, you've got it on all of them.
> 
> Regards, and thanks for the history lesson.
> 
> P.S.:  Several have posted this comment and I most certainly agree: These are extremely well-built machines!  I was at the seller's large shop to look at some tooling that he had for sale (he's in his late 80's and selling off much of his stock).  I saw this little gem sitting among some other large tools, basically just collecting dust.  It was immediately obvious that this was a solid little machine.  My number one 'go-to' lathe is a 2000's vintage 15 x 40 floor model, and it was clear that the Kin Shin, although smaller, was a much sturdier machine.  Should have kept it.



Yes it all makes sense, just a bit confusing. my lathe is essentially the same just a later model, with a few improvements, like the camlock chuck, a few more oil points, geared headstock. It's a dam good lathe very accurate straight out of the shop. all handwheels are calibrated metric and imperial. Even though Australia is officially metric and has been for some time, I decided to order my lathe as an imperial machine with 8 TPI lead screw cross slide, compound etc are all imperial I just figured that most of what I'm likely to do will be imperial. I am comfortable working in either system and have done for nearly 40 years.

If I need a metric thread I just use the 120 x 127 T gears and I'm in business, basically 127/5 gives 25.4 = mm per inch that's how it works, so its sconverting the leadscrew to a metric equivalent, then the norton box does the rest.

And as Doug said the right hand saddle wheel is a british convention, and seeing as they invented the industrial revolution and built the first lathes we reckon it's the correct way, and Taiwan has long been prepared to make them that way for us. personally I think it's safer, you get a lot less hot chips on your hands. and it puts you further away from spinning things like the chuck. Over the years I have driven a few LH lathes but was never happy.


----------



## NortonDommi

Hi Doug,
              Glad you got the program sorted. I've used it for years and had a few niggles when I upgraded to Win 7 yet others have no problems.
I used it to work out what gears to make as my lathe only came with one change gear, has a metric leadscrew and most of the stuff I work on is Imperial.  I set the precision at 0.0000001% and if a thread can't be cut work down to see if I can find something that will work OK. 0.05% is close enough for most things.  
  Looks like everything is coming together well. Thanks for posting the updates.

 - Barry.


----------



## dgrev

Terry, Bob and Barry. Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and photos.

Bob - See attached photos of carbide holders - both SECO. Also see photo of a new surface myself and the carbide tool have invented, I have christened it the "Porcupine Surface"! Probably the result of incorrect rpm for the tool?
	

		
			
		

		
	












Now for my latest problem. This lathe is cutting a taper headstock large to tailstock small of 35 thou in 6"!!!

I tried checking its level and mucked about with the leveling bolts to no avail. Adjusting them does not make a difference.
I do note that when I extend the right rear bolt the right front bolt leaves the floor. But the opposite does not happen.
Do I have a warped bed or am I missing something?


----------



## dgrev

Terry

The right hand photo - the ratios are the same as mine.

I can't make out the data on the blue plates.

Regards
Doug



tjb said:


> Oops!
> 
> Here's the photo.  Plus another that gives some detail on the far right section.
> 
> Regards,
> Terry
> 
> View attachment 270054
> View attachment 270055


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Terry
> 
> The right hand photo - the ratios are the same as mine.
> 
> I can't make out the data on the blue plates.
> 
> Regards
> Doug


Doug,

Try t


dgrev said:


> Terry
> 
> The right hand photo - the ratios are the same as mine.
> 
> I can't make out the data on the blue plates.
> 
> Regards
> Doug


Doug,

Try these photos.  I think I figured out how to crop and enlarge a section of a photo.

Regards,
Terry


----------



## dgrev

Terry

Easy to see now - thanks.

The left and right photo, the data is exactly the same as my lathe.

The middle photo the data is totally different.

Weird huh. See attached photo and compare.

Regards
Doug


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Terry
> 
> Easy to see now - thanks.
> 
> The left and right photo, the data is exactly the same as my lathe.
> 
> The middle photo the data is totally different.
> 
> Weird huh. See attached photo and compare.
> 
> Regards
> Doug
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 270107


That is strange.  Any other experts out there have a clue on this one?

Regards


----------



## dgrev

Terry. Did you note that the cross feed is 1/2? But even when those numbers are doubled they don't match yours. Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Terry. Did you note that the cross feed is 1/2? But even when those numbers are doubled they don't match yours. Doug


It's not uncommon for the cross feed to be half the long feed, my lathe is the same.


----------



## Downunder Bob

tjb said:


> That is strange.  Any other experts out there have a clue on this one?
> 
> Regards


I have heard that quite a lot of older asian lathes had the wrong feed plates fitted, set it up and do some test cuts, then you'll know exactly what you've got.


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Terry. Did you note that the cross feed is 1/2? But even when those numbers are doubled they don't match yours. Doug


I don't do a lot of threading, Doug, but it's my understanding that the cross feed values are usually one-half the stated values.  Here's a photo of my Harrison M300 faceplate.  Note the 1/2 ratio below the dial in the lower left corner.  I'm pretty sure the ratios you're reading on your table are directly comparable to the ratios on mine, and to get the cross feed values, you halve them.  No clue why they're different.

Regards,
Terry


----------



## tjb

Downunder Bob said:


> I have heard that quite a lot of older asian lathes had the wrong feed plates fitted, set it up and do some test cuts, then you'll know exactly what you've got.


Interesting.  Since the lathe I had is older than Doug's (1976 v. 1980-ish), I wonder which is wrong.  Doug, I'd be very curious to know the results if you conduct Bob's experiment.

Regards,
Terry


----------



## Downunder Bob

tjb said:


> Interesting.  Since the lathe I had is older than Doug's (1976 v. 1980-ish), I wonder which is wrong.  Doug, I'd be very curious to know the results if you conduct Bob's experiment.
> 
> Regards,
> Terry





tjb said:


> Interesting.  Since the lathe I had is older than Doug's (1976 v. 1980-ish), I wonder which is wrong.  Doug, I'd be very curious to know the results if you conduct Bob's experiment.
> 
> Regards,
> Terry


I was taught when an apprentice, that if your not entirely familiar with a lathe always do a test cut before attempting any screwcutting . also check the operation of the thread chaser dial if you intend to operate the half nuts. Over the years I estimate I have operated at least 50 or 60 different lathes. Some were great machines, a few I wish I had never met them. they were absolute shockers. Probably as many as 5% had errors on the screw cutting charts. There may have been more, I just didn't find them. I have also come across some badly damaged lathes and mills terribly abused by uncaring an probably untrained operators.


----------



## tjb

Something has occurred to me.  This has been a very interesting set of posts for two reasons.  First, the technical issues raised include some relatively common factors but also some that are curious because of their original nature.  A second and equally interesting observation is that responses to this issue have come from all over the globe.  Quite literally.  The original post is from Australia, and responses have been offered from Texas, USA; Ontario, Canada; Australia; New Zealand; Sweden; and here in Madison, GA (SE USA).  I suspect most of us have responded with the natural assumption that all of us are approaching the issue as if we are all coming from the same frame of reference.  Technically, that's probably accurate, except for different levels of expertise and training.  But what about environmental?  A quick perusal of a global time clock indicates the following:
Even as I write, in Texas, it's 10 AM; Australia, midnight or so (why aren't you in bed, Bob!?),; in Ontario, Canada, 11 AM; New Zealand, 3 AM; and in Sweden, 5 PM.  And that's only part of the story.  I wonder what the climatological differences are as well?

I'll start.  Right now, it's 11:26 AM, bright and sunny, not a cloud in the sky, and HOT.  92 degrees F, headed to 96, current heat index is 100.  Just mowed about half the lawn (no easy task - all total, it's 2+ acres) and am recovering before going to my non-air conditioned shop.  My earlier posts today were a little after 8 AM.  Conditions slightly more comfortable but about the same.  Anybody else?

Regards,
Terry


----------



## Downunder Bob

G'day Terry, as it happened I did go to bed immediately after my last post. That is typically when I retire for the night. I'm up at that hour for a number of reasons, I'm typically a night owl, my daughter lives in Colorado and I often stay up so we can have a chat. I also have other relatives and friends in USA ad Canada so chat with them as well. I have travelled extensively over many years in Nth America, so am quite familiar with your local geography, including your weirder than our climate. 

Right now it's 4.40am and your going to say "why aren't you in bed''. Well, I  was until I woke up for a pee, old man's bladder. I also needed to stoke and reload the fire, It's 5c 45f here, and will probably drop a couple more deg, before sunrise at about 0700. and it might warm up to 15 or 16c  a bit after lunch. The fire keeps the house warm, typically around 22c 68f. The slow combustion heater has a water jacket and heats a large 400 ltr, tank of water. this not only supplies all the hot water for the house but is connected to the under floor heating, which keeps us nice and cosy all winter. The only down side is it needs attention every 4 - 5 hours. 

One thing I got used to fairly quickly is that this is a global community. here, Yes the issues raised are often very interesting and are global, also I always like to put my 10c worth in. I feel I have  a lot to offer as I am formally trained as Fitter & turner, plus toolmaker, I also have a wide experience having spent most of my working life at sea as a marines engineer, having to fix all kinds of things with only the tools at hand. So I'm well versed in the philosophy "there is more than one way to skin a cat." 

Having said that it's jut gone 0500 so I'm going back to bed, until about 0800.

Bob.  




'


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## tjb

Downunder Bob said:


> G'day Terry, as it happened I did go to bed immediately after my last post. That is typically when I retire for the night. I'm up at that hour for a number of reasons, I'm typically a night owl, my daughter lives in Colorado and I often stay up so we can have a chat. I also have other relatives and friends in USA ad Canada so chat with them as well. I have travelled extensively over many years in Nth America, so am quite familiar with your local geography, including your weirder than our climate.
> 
> Right now it's 4.40am and your going to say "why aren't you in bed''. Well, I  was until I woke up for a pee, old man's bladder. I also needed to stoke and reload the fire, It's 5c 45f here, and will probably drop a couple more deg, before sunrise at about 0700. and it might warm up to 15 or 16c  a bit after lunch. The fire keeps the house warm, typically around 22c 68f. The slow combustion heater has a water jacket and heats a large 400 ltr, tank of water. this not only supplies all the hot water for the house but is connected to the under floor heating, which keeps us nice and cosy all winter. The only down side is it needs attention every 4 - 5 hours.
> 
> One thing I got used to fairly quickly is that this is a global community. here, Yes the issues raised are often very interesting and are global, also I always like to put my 10c worth in. I feel I have  a lot to offer as I am formally trained as Fitter & turner, plus toolmaker, I also have a wide experience having spent most of my working life at sea as a marines engineer, having to fix all kinds of things with only the tools at hand. So I'm well versed in the philosophy "there is more than one way to skin a cat."
> 
> Having said that it's jut gone 0500 so I'm going back to bed, until about 0800.
> 
> Bob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> '


Well, when you rise, let me say "Thanks" for your reply.  Had a feeling your climate would be significantly cooler than ours this time of year.  Sounds like you've had an interesting working career that positions you to be a valuable resource to us rank amateurs.  Many thanks for sharing your knowledge.  From some of the posts I've seen, there is clearly a load of members like myself who have no formal training in machining but have always enjoyed hands-on activities.  Since my professional life kept me tied (no, shackled) to an office environment, my extra-curricular activities tended to be quite physical - woodworking, horse training, street rod building, tractor repair, etc., etc., etc.  We have been living on a farm for 24 years and, as you can appreciate, there is never 'nothing' to do.  Some of my more gentrified family and friends often ask, 'What do you do during the day?'  My stock answer is, I close my eyes, spin in several circles, then open my eyes.  Whatever direction I'm facing, it's a certainty there will be something to do.  I love it that way.  Somewhere in the course of all that, I developed an interest in machining.  I needed a part for a street rod modification that I couldn't buy, so I bought a Smithy 3-in-1 instead and made it.  That lead to bigger machines and more projects (I've become the local 'go-to guy' when tractors and attachments need a part that's not readily available).  Now I'm hooked and have been having fun learning for the last 3 or 4 years, and I hope you veterans realize how invaluable you are to us rookies and how much we appreciate you.

Pleasant dreams and stay warm.

P.S.:  VERY familiar with the 'old man syndrome' that causes you to rise in the middle of the night.  I'm usually thrilled to death if I can make it to 4:40 AM.

Regards,
Terry


----------



## dgrev

Terry,

I am in Broken Hill NSW, 360 miles NE of Bob and we are in the same time zone. 
Climate is effectively the same except it almost never rains here, whereas Adelaide is on the coast.

Ditto to bladder demands.

I am a 56 y.o. Electrician by qualification, but have spent most of my life in the accommodation business. Hence the 3 decades absence from lathes. In short, this Hafco lathe came up for sale and I evaluated it as a good buy. I am somewhat puzzled as to how much use it will get, but often these things attract projects that we otherwise would not have considered due to not having the facilities. 

Regards
Doug


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Terry,
> 
> I am in Broken Hill NSW, 360 miles NE of Bob and we are in the same time zone.
> Climate is effectively the same except it almost never rains here, whereas Adelaide is on the coast.
> 
> Ditto to bladder demands.
> 
> I am a 56 y.o. Electrician by qualification, but have spent most of my life in the accommodation business. Hence the 3 decades absence from lathes. In short, this Hafco lathe came up for sale and I evaluated it as a good buy. I am somewhat puzzled as to how much use it will get, but often these things attract projects that we otherwise would not have considered due to not having the facilities.
> 
> Regards
> Doug


Must be beautiful up there this time of year!  40's Fahrenheit at night, and I assume with little rainfall the humidity is relatively low?  Humidity is a big factor around here.  It's not unlikely for both the temperature and the humidity to be in the 90's.

I think you're right about the opportunities that will arise now that you own the lathe.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, except for the larger size your lathe seems to be a dead-ringer for my Kin Shin.  It's an extremely well-built machine, and I've had seller's remorse almost from the day I sold it.  As with most of us amateurs, I needed the space more than I needed a third lathe.  Too bad that one sold first.  Such is life.

Every one of my stationary pieces of equipment is used.  And all needed some amount of work.  I have spent several years restoring and modifying old cars, and I discovered that the best way to appreciate a car or piece of equipment is to know how to work on it.  That axiom served me well on my milling machine (Supermax BP clone also made in Taiwan), my Harrison lathe and the Kin Shin.  I suspect you'll have the same experience on your new acquisition.

Please keep us posted on your progress.  I'm especially curious about the result of Bob's recommended experiment on the threading convention.

It's 7:14 PM, Wednesday here in GA, down to 93 degrees from a high of 98 - hot and pretty humid.  I guess it's Thursday morning in NSW?

Regards,
Terry

P.S.:  Maybe you've already addressed this, but what came with the lathe by way of tooling?


----------



## pdentrem

What I would do, not knowing how it sat all those years, is to level the headstock first and then let the casting relieve itself of any stress that the previous owner put into it. I would monitor the Tailstock end and with less pressure on the screw/foot that you want to drop. In the mean time you can offset the tailstock for the jobs as required and hopefully in a few months the two ends will be on the same plane.
Pierre


----------



## dgrev

Terry

I will get to the thread chart issue in due course. Need to do some more learning first!

Pierre

I have just got back home from doing some turning and with a 6" long 2 1/4 inch hollow bar which I was boring, the taper is 10 thou in 50mm
which is consistent with the 35 thou taper I saw yesterday on the external side over 150mm!!!!
Makes it effectively impossible (for me) to get any accuracy. A Fitter and Turner could cope with it, but beyond my talents at this time.

So my highest priority is getting this thing to cut to a reasonable parallel.

I don't have a machinist's level, so carpenter's levels will have to do until I can either buy a machinist's level or set up a truing bar and adjust in from that. Went into town and tried to buy some aluminium bar to do so, but largest diameter I could get was 25mm which from the Youtube videos I have watched is way too narrow. However, thinking about it, it would be a starting point and may help until such time as I next get to Adelaide and can buy
some 1 1/2" aluminium bar.

The taper is reducing towards the tailstock, so unless there are other factors at play, it really does point to the tailstock end as being out. As you have said, I may just have to give it some time and see if it will settle if the jacking bolts result in one of them not contacting the floor and the taper still
being there.
Am I correct in that it is the rear RHS bolt that I should be screwing downwards ie. increasing the height of that side?
(Which is what I was doing before and the RHS front bolt was lifting clear of the floor.)
Regards
Doug


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Terry
> 
> I will get to the thread chart issue in due course. Need to do some more learning first!
> 
> Pierre
> 
> I have just got back home from doing some turning and with a 6" long 2 1/4 inch hollow bar which I was boring, the taper is 10 thou in 50mm
> which is consistent with the 35 thou taper I saw yesterday on the external side over 150mm!!!!
> Makes it effectively impossible (for me) to get any accuracy. A Fitter and Turner could cope with it, but beyond my talents at this time.
> 
> So my highest priority is getting this thing to cut to a reasonable parallel.
> 
> I don't have a machinist's level, so carpenter's levels will have to do until I can either buy a machinist's level or set up a truing bar and adjust in from that. Went into town and tried to buy some aluminium bar to do so, but largest diameter I could get was 25mm which from the Youtube videos I have watched is way too narrow. However, thinking about it, it would be a starting point and may help until such time as I next get to Adelaide and can buy
> some 1 1/2" aluminium bar.
> 
> The taper is reducing towards the tailstock, so unless there are other factors at play, it really does point to the tailstock end as being out. As you have said, I may just have to give it some time and see if it will settle if the jacking bolts result in one of them not contacting the floor and the taper still
> being there.
> Am I correct in that it is the rear RHS bolt that I should be screwing downwards ie. increasing the height of that side?
> (Which is what I was doing before and the RHS front bolt was lifting clear of the floor.)
> Regards
> Doug


Doug,

I don't if it's feasible where you live, but I've been able to acquire quite a few pieces of metal - including inch and a half solid rounds - for very reasonable prices on e-bay.  I'm sure you'd need to locate an Australian vendor, but here in the US, there are a handful that sell end cuts and other salvageable pieces for very reasonable prices.

Regards,
Terry


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## dgrev

Terry

I have seen similar on the Oz site. The biggest issue here is parcel cost. Ever since email hit the regular letter service the post office has focused on parcels as their bread and butter. It isn't cheap anymore and it really suppresses what is sold online. 
I bought a .50cal ammo box recently - empty. Cost was $19.95, postage was $13.50. I regularly see items that the postage cost if 75% or more of the item price until that price exceeds roughly $50.
Truck freight is only affordable if you are a business and have an account with them that guarantees you will spend $XXXX per month. One off despatches are roughly 3x postage cost outside of the capital cities.

As to buying things out of the USA, US Post has all but killed off international parcels, they killed the thriving 2nd hand book industry stone dead. 
The items I have priced in the last couple of years usually have the postage cost exceed the item cost by a factor of 2. 
The fact that almost nothing seems to fit in those weird sized "fixed price international boxes"   
forces you to use the L x W x D by Weight option which is what drives the postage cost into the ridiculous category.

I just did a search for aluminium bar or rod and got zero hits from Aussie sellers, and just this one from England
<https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6082-Al...hash=item361e773a60:m:mHzM1Aj21DL1ND3PkMZxkEw>
1 off 41.3mm x 108mm bar for or a total of $38.56!

So will finish lunch and then go to the metal place and get that 25mm rod and have a play this arvo.

Since you were asking about Oz. Some photos for you. 
- First is an open road shot. We are on the trans-Oz highway, so it is not unusual to have to dodge large items of machinery. Think of all the good steel for our projects going by to disappear into mines and never come out.
- A dust storm rolling in, usually happen in drought years. Which is why I am going to have to get a good cover for the lathe as I don't fancy having to take it apart to clean the very fine dust out of everything.
- 2 legged road hazards a block from my place. I have never seen Emus wandering the streets before, the tourists who think we are the wild west may just be correct. We are in drought and they are coming into town for food. Which tends to suggest that it will be dust storms starting probably in September, so I had better have a really good cover for that lathe (Bob misses out on all this). 
Any suggestions, I was wondering if they make BBQ covers that big?













The photos of the accessories that came with the lathe are on either page 1 or 2 of this thread.

Regards
Doug


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## dgrev

Everyone

Went and got that aluminium bar and set it up against the live centre as I could not get it to sit true in the chuck no matter how much I reset it.
Which seemed odd.

Best I could align lathe was 12 thou out over the 11" of the lathe. So call it 1 thou per inch.

When it came time to back off the tailstock, the bar sprang still. No matter how many times I reset it in the chuck, still the identical spring. See photos.









So I then eased off the chuck, rotated the bar 180 deg, and tightened everything back up.
Then again backed off the tail stock.









Same result. So this time I turned the chuck 180 deg and then eased the tail stock. Double
the deflection.









Please don't tell me the headstock is out of alignment?

Screw on chuck by the way. I have not noticed any run out on the chuck, but I haven't had it slower than 650 rpm, so that may hide any wobble?

I take it next step is put the dial indicator against the chuck?

Regards
Doug


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## Downunder Bob

Doug before you get too excited, have you checked for parallel on a shorter bar say six inches without the tailstock. just set up the bar in the chuck with about 6 inches sticking out, take a light cut and measure, should be near perfect parallel. That test confirms your headstock is square to the lathe bed, If it isn't you have to fix that first..

While your there put a centre hole into end of bar. then extend bar out as far as practicable say a foot to 18 inches. and bring tailstock up to bar and see how it looks. Looking down from the top you should see that amount of misalignment. Now look at the tail stock, you'll see it's made in two parts, with a rectangular slide going across. There should also be 2 maybe 4 grub screws in top part closed own to the joint. Should be one at the front and one at they back plus maybe two on the right hand end. The front and back ones are for adjustment. the two on the end, if they exist, are for locking.

Loosen the hold down locking lever or bolt whichever you have, then loosen the two locking screws, now carefully adjust the front and back screws, until the tilstock looks to be lined up. Then set your dial indicator up and measure for parallel from chuck to tailstock. with the clock near to the tailstock end of bar slowly engage center into hole and see which way it move adjust tailstock until you get teh clock to show parallel from chuck to tail stock , then tighten the locking screws,and hold down clamp check again you may need to make further adjustment. depends how accurate you want it.


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## dgrev

Bob

Yes I have, the 2 3/8" hollow bar I bored yesterday. When I turned it down, it lost 30 thou from chuck to end of piece over 150mm. So today's observations are agreeing with that, in that there is a taper happening irrespective of the tailstock.

Is it a chicken and egg thing? Which do I do first, twist or headstock?

Regards
Doug


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## tjb

Doug,

I will be out of commission almost all day but will follow the posts.  Bob's suggestions should help you zero in on the necessary adjustments.

Will try to post a photo or two of the tail stock on the Kin Shin.  Can't promise it will be today, though.

Thanks for the pix.  It's a different world out there!

Regards,
Terry

6:50 AM.  Sunny.  A little cooler today than yesterday.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Downunder Bob said:


> fur




Ok, I thought you had said something like that. So to start with you have to address that, to start with ignore the tail stock. what you have is a misalignment from the headstock spindle to the bed. They should be parallel in both the vertical and horizontal planes. and I mean parallel.

The specs for my lathe say max. .02mm out of parallel. That's pretty tight.

Have a look at your lathe where the headstock is attached to the bed, there should be 4? large bolts holding it together, also there maybe some adjusting screws If you slacken those screws you should be able to pivot the headstock around a central pin.

Before you loosen anything put your test bar in the chuck and take a light cut and measure at both ends, then when you try to adjust it with your dial indicator on the distant end try to adjust out the error. now take another light cut and measure 

It may take a few goes to get it right. A long bar set into the outer end of the head spindle might help to nudge the headstock around. Once you have the headstock square you can start on the tailstock. One can only wonder how it got to be that far out?


----------



## dgrev

Bob.

Indeed, it does make you wonder just what has gone on in this lathe's past. Somebody fiddling where they shouldn't have been I suspect.

Do you think I should buy a machinist's level before going any further?

I have seen 4 cap screws (allen) and noticed one snubber cap screw next to the motor, so there should be one tucked under the belt cover on the far LHS rear of the headstock. So looking good as far as adjusting the head stock. I am very wary of playing in this area, seems to me it is a bit of a Pandaora's Box that I am hesitant to open. But, you say I need to start there, so that is where I will start.

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Doug, do you know what sort of work the previous owner did on the lathe. He may have  had a reason for wanting a long slow atper.

I think you said you had squared it up with a carpenters level, that should be good enough to start with. It is better than nothing. I would still follow it up with a good machine level. It's a bit like oils. Sure there is correct oil for every application, but surely the wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

So having squared it up as best you can and it's still turning with same taper, then squaring it more won't make it any better. And you probably don't need to go to a surveyor's or toolmakers level, 1 mm  per meter should be good enough, some modern builders levels can get that at least until they are dropped.

Then the next step is to get the headstock square with the bed. once you've got that done, you can proceed with the rest of it.

If you wish we can talk by phone if it helps, give me your number I can call anywhere in Aus free.24/7


----------



## Downunder Bob

When I was an apprentice I was given the job of restoring an old lathe, and one thing we did, was when we got the tailstock squared in we put two tapered locating pins into it. So if you wanted to move it you had to remove the pins, and when you wanted it back square you lined up the pin holes, knocked the pins in and it was spot on.


----------



## dgrev

Bob

Thanks for the offer. All understood. I will PM my phone number to you. Don't want it on public display as I just received a spam email from a Chinese Carbide insert maker. They could have got my details anywhere, but I have been here the most.

My builder's level has reset-able vials. I detest those ones that can't be adjusted after they have been knocked or dropped. 

Somewhere, in a safe place but currently unknown I have a Gunner's Quadrant. Don't know the accuracy of it, but gunners talk in mils, so assume it is pretty good. If I could only find it.......

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

A gunner's quadrant, I've probably seen one, as I was in the Artillery for a couple of years, but i don't remember it. I was probably not on the need to know list, as I was just the grunt, actually the gun tractor driver, to the real artillery guys the drivers were the lowest of the low, not really gunners at all.  Once the guns were delivered to a site and set up the drivers were just there to fetch and carry.

With your resettable level that's ok as long as you know how to do it properly and how to check it. I'll keep you number secret if you want to let me have it it's up to you


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## dgrev

Bob.
Gunner's Quadrant is placed on the breech of the gun. Typically for a gun not normally used for indirect fire (artillery is normally indirect fire) such as tank gun firing at something it cannot see. Your normal artillery unit comes with all the fancy instruments already on the gun or with the gun command.

Not worried about keeping my number secret as such, I just don't want to be answering the phone to half of India or China trying to sell me stuff I don't want.

Am thinking of having a chat tomorrow evening?

Regards
Doug


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## Downunder Bob

Tomorrow evening should be fine, say after 8.00 i assume you are on sa time, 

Yeh the guns we had were pretty good considering they were made during WWII 25 pounders known as 9 mile snipers. Yes they certainly were indirect fire. we would set up a target we could see because we certainly could not see the real target. The gun surveyors would lay out all sorts of triangles and used lots of trigonometry to calculate where the target was in relation to were we were. Most of the time it worked and we hit the target.


----------



## dgrev

Decided today to pull the chuck off and make sure there was nothing between the rear face and the spindle front face. As a base line I set up the dial indicator and turned the chuck by hand. Runout is 12 thou, that seems way too much to me?
Then locked the headstock gears and removed the chuck.
There was some dents and burrs on the rear of the chuck so I cleaned those off with an oil stone. The spindle face looked nice as did its thread.

However, the same could not be said for the thread inside the chuck. A bit scary actually. There were burs impacted into the thread the whole way down along with some bad damage (missing material) in the middle of the thread run.

I am guessing this is what happens when someone changes the chuck and does not clean out swathe first.

See photos.
	

		
			
		

		
	










Then remounted the chuck and retested with the dial indicator. Runout was identical at 12 thou. 
I then put the alloy bar back in and decided (without much optimism) to try and turn the far end and measure the difference to the chuck end to establish how far skewed the headstock is. As predicted, the alloy bar is too thin and it chattered badly. Sigh.

I will have to come up with a way to sight the headstock to the bed. I am tending to think I will use the 11" alloy bar and align to the centre bore of
it with the live centre in the tailstock. This should get me pretty close, then using a fresh bar, repeat the process and fine tune.
Another option would be to put a small drill through say a 3" long bar in the chuck and then bore sight to the live centre in the tailstock.


----------



## pdentrem

Did you indicate the spindle face and the M5 taper on the inside of the spindle? See yellow lines pointing to where to check.




I would be hopeful and look at the chuck as the source of the problem. Some missing material in the threads is not that much of an issue as the chuck will register on the front face of the spindle. Remove the back plate from the chuck after checking the spindle and install it. Now check again the mounting surface for the chuck. Maybe the backing plate needs to be refaced for example.


----------



## Downunder Bob

pdentrem said:


> Did you indicate the spindle face and the M5 taper on the inside of the spindle? See yellow lines pointing to where to check.
> View attachment 270248
> 
> 
> 
> I would be hopeful and look at the chuck as the source of the problem. Some missing material in the threads is not that much of an issue as the chuck will register on the front face of the spindle. Remove the back plate from the chuck after checking the spindle and install it. Now check again the mounting surface for the chuck. Maybe the backing plate needs to be refaced for example.



Yes definitely indicate the spindle face and the taper bore. I hope they are OK because if not it would suggest a bent spindle. And that is not a good result.


----------



## dgrev

Pierre

Thanks for the info.

No I have not indicated the spindle face or bore, so will do so.

 I had a talk to Bob last night and he agrees with you that I should take the back plate from the chuck, install the back plate and measure the run out of the back plate then go from there.

Regards
Doug


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## HMF

By the way, I want to remind everyone that we have our own VIDEO library where you can post videos without using YouTube:

*https://www.hobby-machinist.com/gallery/categories/member-video-channels.6/*

*available to donating members.*


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## dgrev

Hello all. I have made some progress over the weekend along with other jobs.

I made up a "peep sight" to align the head with the tailstock live centre point. I used a piece of 23mm idiameter alloy roughly 3" long cut off the 11" bar from earlier on. Bored it out with a 1/8" drill bit. I knew that I had a piece of alloy that was an offcut from one of my Dad's jobs 3 decades ago, so went and fished that out. Other than the hole being a bit big, it was a lovely fit as was into the spindle. You have to win some!
So inserted some alloy sheet metal and drilled it to 1/8".
Sighting through the plug, then through the the bar, allowed me to aim the headstock at the centre point. The peep sight concept meant I could move to and thro and forward and back until the various circles touched each other and gave the desired accuracy. I did need to black the centre and then highlight the last 5mm of the point with white paint. I also need to black the plug, but even then reflections made a nuisance of themselves so hung a cardboard box over it as a hood.
See photos.










The headstock was aligned as best I could, then verified by my wife and a friend who dropped by.

The other job today was to pull the 4 jaw and 3 jaw chucks apart and clean them out. Multiple
reasons, one is Bob insisting I do it, the other because the 3 jaw had a noticable tight spot
about mid jaw movement. But mainly it was so I could clean out what I suspected was a swathe
reservoir between the mounting plate and the chuck proper.

- 4 jaw - removed cap screws, but cannot separate it. Any suggestions? Don't want to force
anything into the gap as don't want to risk burring mating faces.

- 3 jaw - came apart very nicely. See photo for what awaited me. After cleaning everything up,
I greased it with graphited grease and reassembled. Now that the swathe reservoir is empty,
there was no issue with screwing it back onto the spindle. This proved itself when I did a test
cut on the bar and the runout of the work is 1 thou.
The runout of the back plate and chuck are both 4 thou, the same as before disassembly and 
cleaning, looks like nothing can be done about that.




Now to the swathe reservoir - what a dumb design! My first thought is to put a bead of silastic in there. Does mean that it must be cleaned off next
time chuck is pulled down and will make doing so difficult, but it will stop the swathe collecting in there and then constantly finding its way into the chuck inards: but mostly stop it finding its way onto the spindle thread every time I screw the chuck back on. I did consider an O ring, but the natural curve of the ring will still allow fine swathe to build in that area.
Does anyone have any other suggestions what I could use that will compress easily and block that area off?

Regards
Doug


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## pdentrem

Was the 4 thou runout on the backplate after cleaning etc and measured by itself? You can take a skim cut on the back plate to return the run out to zero. When one buys a back plate for a chuck, it a first step to fit the new plate, even a fully finished one.

As for splitting the 4 jaw, loosen the bolts again a couple turns and tap on the heads to push the chuck off.

See here.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/thr...ed-spindle-backing-plates-for-my-lathe.19802/


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## dgrev

Pierre

Further cleaning and work today.

I pulled the back plate off the 3 jaw chuck and installed an O ring to seal the swathe reservoir. Failed to notice the alignment mark on the back plate so had to do the process a 2nd time when the chuck runout was 7 thou.

I now have the backplate and 3 jaw chuck both at 1 thou runout. Very happy with that.
So no need to machine the backing plate.
Thanks for the link.

Running a 19mm alloy bar between 3 jaw chuck and live centre in tail stock I am getting 30 thou taper over 200mm. Adjusting the leveling legs
seems to be an exercise in futility.............

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Pierre
> 
> Further cleaning and work today.
> 
> I pulled the back plate off the 3 jaw chuck and installed an O ring to seal the swathe reservoir. Failed to notice the alignment mark on the back plate so had to do the process a 2nd time when the chuck runout was 7 thou.
> 
> I now have the backplate and 3 jaw chuck both at 1 thou runout. Very happy with that.
> So no need to machine the backing plate.
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> Running a 19mm alloy bar between 3 jaw chuck and live centre in tail stock I am getting 30 thou taper over 200mm. Adjusting the leveling legs
> seems to be an exercise in futility.............
> 
> Regards
> Doug



Doug some progress, but still problems, welcome to the world of hobby machinist with a preloved machine. I take it you have squared your headstock and that is turning without taper.

 The next step is to adjust the tailstock. You should find an adjustment where you can slide the top part of the tailstock across sideways. Can you post a couple of pics of your tailstock good close ups from front and RH end. so we can see how it's put together leave your levelling screws where you feel they are near correct for now. 

Slide the tail stock up to the headstock with a center in each. you will see they are not lined up, so we have to adjust that. Let me know if you want me to call.


----------



## dgrev

Bob

I have the tailstock and headstock aligned (well, I think I have), but this taper thing is getting really vexing. 

It is apparent that fiddling with the leveling feet is not working. so am assuming I need to go back to basics. Your point about centre to centre is
worth trying, however, I have no way of putting a centre in the headstock that I am aware of. Besides that, the spindle hole is 1 1/2" I.d. which would be a pretty huge Morse taper?

All that I can think of is to cut a point on a piece of short bar in the 3 jaw chuck?

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob
> 
> I have the tailstock and headstock aligned (well, I think I have), but this taper thing is getting really vexing.
> 
> It is apparent that fiddling with the leveling feet is not working. so am assuming I need to go back to basics. Your point about centre to centre is
> worth trying, however, I have no way of putting a centre in the headstock that I am aware of. Besides that, the spindle hole is 1 1/2" I.d. which would be a pretty huge Morse taper?
> 
> All that I can think of is to cut a point on a piece of short bar in the 3 jaw chuck?
> 
> Regards
> Doug


 Exactly put a piece of scrap in the chuck ,machine a center point on it and slide the tailstock up to it I bet they don't line up. BTW the headstock should be a #4 or 5 MT.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Downunder Bob said:


> Exactly put a piece of scrap in the chuck ,machine a center point on it and slide the tailstock up to it I bet they don't line up. BTW the headstock should be a #4 or 5 MT.



If adjusting the leveling feet isn't fixing it then obviously it's something else. My bet is the tailstock. the previous owner may have set it over for special job and never put it back.


----------



## dgrev

Bob, will do, hopefully tomorrow. 

The tailstock is adjusted exactly even. I will be surprised if it is the problem, but as I am out of clues, I will investigate that.

Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob, will do, hopefully tomorrow.
> 
> The tailstock is adjusted exactly even. I will be surprised if it is the problem, but as I am out of clues, I will investigate that.
> 
> Doug



Doug, if as you say, the tailstock is adjusted exactly even, what was it aligned too, how do you know it's correct. the problem you have is exactly what happens when it's not adjusted correctly. the standard method of turning a taper is to adjust the tailstock over. The little mark on the end is usually as useful as t*ts on a bull. I've never seen one that was correct.


----------



## dgrev

Bob. I have adjusted the headstock with my peep sight arrangement post #141 from how it came, so am concerned that if I now fiddle with something else (tailstock), I will have altered a 3rd setting that was possibly factory. Given that the leveling is a an exercise in failure I need to try something else. But this will introduce yet another unknown.
1) Leveling
2) Headstock
3) Tailstock 

If the tailstock adjustment fails then I will have a lathe with no possible factory reference parameters left.

Then  what do I do?

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Doug, your peep sight method is ingenious to say the least, I've never heard of being done that way but if it worked fine. The final test is does it turn parallel when a bar is not supported by the tailstock. that is the only true test.

I don't think you can say the original factory settings still existed on the lathe as it was not turning parallel. The correct settings are the ones that work. Adjusting the levelling feet will not make a great deal of difference, that is only for the final thou or so.

with the lathe as level as you can get it measuring on the bed surfaces even with a carpenters level, as long as it's true, will be good enough to start with. Then you have to square the headstock then the tail stock in that order. You can't use the tail stock as a reference if it is not correct.


----------



## dgrev

Bob. Thanks for that, I did not realise the feet leveling was only a finale, I thought it was the basic adjustment and everything else was reliant on it.

So, tomorrow  (providing there are no other tasks needing a higher priority) will put feet back to level with carpenter's level as everything is doubtless out of kilter now, will then do the turned point in the chuck , align headstock to tailstock then run tailstock to far end and peep sight it and see what that tells me. If that agrees will then try for parrellel turn.
I see on the web that I should have an old double edge razor blade to insert between the 2 centres as the most accurate way of aligning them. Hmmm, will need to do some digging to find one of those!

However, if moving tailstock to far end is out of line with peep sight, what then?

The ways look nice, I think (and hope) that they are straight.

I suppose another check would be to dismantle the carriage/saddle and check for anything weird out of sight.
But that really will be a last resort.

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob. Thanks for that, I did not realise the feet leveling was only a finale, I thought it was the basic adjustment and everything else was reliant on it.
> 
> So, tomorrow  (providing there are no other tasks needing a higher priority) will put feet back to level with carpenter's level as everything is doubtless out of kilter now, will then do the turned point in the chuck , align headstock to tailstock then run tailstock to far end and peep sight it and see what that tells me. If that agrees will then try for parrellel turn.
> I see on the web that I should have an old double edge razor blade to insert between the 2 centres as the most accurate way of aligning them. Hmmm, will need to do some digging to find one of those!
> 
> However, if moving tailstock to far end is out of line with peep sight, what then?
> 
> The ways look nice, I think (and hope) that they are straight.
> 
> I suppose another check would be to dismantle the carriage/saddle and check for anything weird out of sight.
> But that really will be a last resort.
> 
> Regards
> Doug



Doug 1st. Rough lelvel is all you need to start.

2. Have you proved the headstock is square by turning parallel without the part supported in the tailstock that is the first test. Turn a piece as long as you can. It's no point proceeding until you have that.

3. now check the tailstock with a center point freshly machined in the chuck, adjust tailstock center to center. If you don't have a razor blade handy a piece of thin steel shim will work,, even a blade out of a box cutter will work, not quite as accurate, but close enough for this stage.

4. Now slide tailstock to the right and insert a test bar. with center pre drilled. You can start with a 1" cold rolled steel bar, or something better if you have it. Mount dial indicator on tool post or saddle, run indicator up and down length of bar should be close to parallel. Rotate bar 180 deg (roll chuck over by hand) confirm measurement is the same. If there is any error, from chuck to tailstock with indicator at tailstock end adjust tailstock to half the error, lock it and measure again. repeat until parallel to your requirements. Now for the proof, take a light cut from one end to the other, and measure with micrometer. make final adjustment as needed.

You can now test your peep sight if you wish, but you certainly don't need it here. And it just might be introducing an error.

Later down the track when your lathe castings have relaxed and you've acquired a better level you can fiddle with the levels but not really necessary unless you want to do toolroom quality work..
You only ever need the machine itself, a dial indicator and a level. to reset it if it ever gets out of whack, usually only after being moved, or a crash.

BTW the original factory settings were only ever valid in the factory, after it was shipped and relocated it should have been done again.

One other test you can do is place a largish piece in the chuck and face it, test with a straightedge for flat. this will confirm your saddle is square with the rest of the lathe.


----------



## pdentrem

Maybe a picture will help. Near the bottom of this page, there is a picture on the right side showing views on how to align the tailstock to the headstock.  https://smithy.com/machining-handbook/chapter-3/page/20 

http://slideplayer.com/slide/7353817/ this is a slide show in 14 slides to help you as well.
Pierre


----------



## dgrev

Pierre thanks for the links.

Bob - I am still struggling with item 2 on your list. Doesn't seem to matter how much I turn the headstock, the damn thing still won't cut parallel!
Will keep at it tomorrow.
Am locking the carriage and using compound and cross slide only to eliminate any issues there may be with the carriage.
Headstock on mine has 4 locking cap screws and 2 adjusting cap screws. Both of the latter are on the motor side of the headstock. I am assuming there is a central pivot. Does that sound correct?

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Doug, yes many or most lathes that I know of do have a central pivot. However not 100% sure if yours does. With the locking screws loosened set a dial indicator up to see if anything moves, then try the adjusting screws. hard to know what is going on without being there. can you take and post some pics. I know this is terribly frustrating, but it as to be done. Can you determine if the headstock is actually turning on its base as you adjust.. Can you grip a long bar in the chuck with some sticking out both ends, then try to move it by hand.

I don't think the carriage is your problem, don't worry about it, unless you have a specific reason to believe it's a problem. What we are trying to achieve is to get a line through the headstock to be parallel to the bed. The only way to achieve this is to rotate the headstock on its base, no other adjustment will fix it.
,


----------



## Downunder Bob

Downunder Bob said:


> Doug, yes many or most lathes that I know of do have a central pivot. However not 100% sure if yours does. With the locking screws loosened set a dial indicator up to see if anything moves, then try the adjusting screws. hard to know what is going on without being there. can you take and post some pics. I know this is terribly frustrating, but it as to be done. Can you determine if the headstock is actually turning on its base as you adjust.. Can you grip a long bar in the chuck with some sticking out both ends, then try to move it by hand.
> 
> I don't think the carriage is your problem, don't worry about it, unless you have a specific reason to believe it's a problem. What we are trying to achieve is to get a line through the headstock to be parallel to the bed. The only way to achieve this is to rotate the headstock on its base, no other adjustment will fix it.
> ,




Doug, DO NOT use compound slide for this. Unlock carriage and use the long carriage feed, for your test cut. If you have long bar set in the chuck, you can set it up fairly well just by running a dial ind. mounted on the toolpost, run it up and down the length of the bar using carriage handwheel only, when you get it reading the same over the length, then take a test cut, for final adjustment.


----------



## dgrev

Bob
Understood. I reverted to your method.
I had to move the headstock a surprising amount. It appeared to be very reluctant to do as told and each time when I tightened the locking cap screws it removed most of the gains but not by any predictable amount. So it was a very repetitive process.
Got it down to 1 thou out of parallel per inch over a 6" unsuported steel tube. Then 1 thou per inch over 18" of 2 1/2" alloy thick walled tube.
So very consistent.
Then trued tailstock to headstock centre to centre using razor blade. See Photo.  
	

		
			
		

		
	







Now for the big question, is 1 thou per inch out of parallel acceptable?
If am very wary of fiddling any more due to the amount of spring in the headstock. Any changes there are pure guess and hope as there is no consistency to the response especially with the amount of spring that seems to be in it when snugging down the locking cap screws.

Opinions please?


----------



## pdentrem

It is still too much, but now you know what to do and you can relax a bit. It would be better to achieve nearer to Zero across the whole length but it will take some time to do so. I would take a break and start to learn the machine and turn some small stuff and practice a while. Dial the rest in at your leisure but don’t wait too long. 

Old computer printers are a good source of straight steel rods, some are ground only and some can have a high polish.


----------



## dgrev

Pierre

Thanks for the advice. I will look for a broken printer and see if it has a suitable bar.

I do wonder if I am better off now to wait for summer. A soaking 45°C in February should allow everything to relax and adjust to its new home? 

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Doug, well done, it would appear that it has been out of alignment for some time. and It will take time to get it back, each time you make a major adjustment, you need to let the main castings relax again, because old stresses have been relieved and new ones applied.

If you're having trouble getting the headstock to move and stay in position as you tighten the bolts. maybe over time a lot of crud has filled the clearances around the bolts and won't allow things to move properly. Is it possible to lift the headstock off the lathe and check the mating surfaces, yes I know it's a big job, and must be done with extreme care.

Actually before you attempt that, completely remove the holding bolts, one at at time, and remove any crud that has accumulated in the holes. I expect you will get quite  a bit of crud out. Replace each bolt before moving on to the next one. Then you will find that it will move better and stay moved as you tighten it up. If That is successful, you may not need to lift it.

One thou per inch is still quite a lot. but one thou per foot is pretty good and many people will accept that, but you should be able to get it to within one thou over the full length between centers. You make the call how good do you want it. think about the things you are going to machine, if you are making a bush that is one inch long an it has a taper of one thou, is that a problem, no not really.

Enjoy.


----------



## dgrev

Bob, I am chuffed to get it to this point. It has been a multi-day (2 to 3 hours per day) to evaluate and then test then adjust it. As you say, it appears to have been out every which way for a long time.
At my measure point 1" out from the chuck there is a 50 to 70 thou spring back when I cinch down the right front cap screw. I tried using the 2 adjustor screws in a controlled fashion and it was just a hiding to nowhere. So then resorted to moving
the headstock by hand (easier than I expected) and just left the adjustor screws loose.

When I had it at 1 thou per inch I then refreshed the centre point on the homemade mild steel centre as per your instructions and zero'ed
the tailstock. As mentioned, there is a consistent 1 thou per inch taper with and without the tailstock. That in itself is encouraging as it is one
less complication.

By the way, the tailstock moved the opposite direction to what logic dictates would happen when turning the cap screws, is that normal?

I will do the de-gunking as you advise and then tackle the headstock again when time permits, perhaps tomorrow or the weekend.

Change of subject. I see on ebay there a SECO CNXG carbide tips which should suit my tip holders. I want to replace all the chipped tips that came with the lathe but cannot find a listing for the properties of these particular ones with the "X" code.
I would like medium <-> fine, would these be suitable? 

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob, I am chuffed to get it to this point. It has been a multi-day (2 to 3 hours per day) to evaluate and then test then adjust it. As you say, it appears to have been out every which way for a long time.
> At my measure point 1" out from the chuck there is a 50 to 70 thou spring back when I cinch down the right front cap screw. I tried using the 2 adjustor screws in a controlled fashion and it was just a hiding to nowhere. So then resorted to moving
> the headstock by hand (easier than I expected) and just left the adjustor screws loose.
> 
> When I had it at 1 thou per inch I then refreshed the centre point on the homemade mild steel centre as per your instructions and zero'ed
> the tailstock. As mentioned, there is a consistent 1 thou per inch taper with and without the tailstock. That in itself is encouraging as it is one
> less complication.
> 
> By the way, the tailstock moved the opposite direction to what logic dictates would happen when turning the cap screws, is that normal?
> 
> I will do the de-gunking as you advise and then tackle the headstock again when time permits, perhaps tomorrow or the weekend.
> 
> Change of subject. I see on ebay there a SECO CNXG carbide tips which should suit my tip holders. I want to replace all the chipped tips that came with the lathe but cannot find a listing for the properties of these particular ones with the "X" code.
> I would like medium <-> fine, would these be suitable?
> 
> Regards
> Doug


Doug, it's hard to comment on some of the problem you are having, without being there and seeing it myself.
I'm pleased that you have come so far at this point.

The tailstock screws on mine appear to move it towards you as you screw. them in, At least that is what the drawings would indicate,  I have no idea what others do. I haven't as yet tried to adjust mine, as I haven't found the need.

In fact I have not yet made any attempt to test the squareness of my lathe since buying it and setting it up in my garage. I'm beginning to suspect it is out, a bit, but not as much as yours, but I was doing a job today and became aware that the headstock is not square to the cross slide. as it happens it is not critical to the job in hand, but none the less I shall have to attend to it, but it will have to wait until the job is finished 

Unfortunately you are asking the wrong person for advice on carbide tips, I struggle to make sense of the codes. So far I have only bought few tip holders that came with a packet of tips, and that is what I use. I grew up on HSS as carbide was quite new and most of our machines were not fast enough, The lathe I worked on during may apprenticeship had a top speed of only 350 RPM. Most of the time I'm using my Diamond tangential tool holder from Eccentric Engineering, Never used one before, but had heard lots of good stories so bought a couple when I bought my lathe, and so far so good.

I suggest you start a new post asking for advice on tips, many of our members appear to be quite knowledgeable on the subject, but be prepared for some conflicting opinions, as choice of tip has many factors, including personal preference


----------



## dgrev

Pierre and Bob

Using Pierre's idea of a ground rod from a printer, I sacrificed a printer I had that was past its best and managed to get a rod whose ends are about 5/16" diameter but the body looks to be around 1/2" diameter. 

It took me about 6 goes before I got the 3 jaw chuck to grip it true according to the dial indicator. The result was impressive, very gently turning the chuck showed no deflection at all!
Not believing what I was seeing and wondering if the pressure of the spring in the dial indicator was deflecting the bar, I presented the cutting tool to the bar and did some tests - turning the chuck using the key as a lever and doing so gently. 
There is a 1 thou difference on the cross slide vernier between no contact and a tiny curl coming off the tool. So that would be a diameter runout of no more than 2 thou.
However I think it is less due to having to back off through the slack of the cross slide worm and then touch back on the rod again. 
So I am calling it a 1 thou diameter run out at the bar length of 10" from the chuck jaw.
Unless I am barking up the wrong tree, I am very happy with that?

The body is currently covered in a soft brown foam like sponge - so I need to be able to get that off somehow without scratching the rod, which appears to be mild steel. I will try petrol and if that doesn't work then paint thinners.
The problem being I am very reluctant to take it out of the chuck now that I have it so nicely sitting true.

I am now confident of being able to set the Dial Indicator up at the RHS of the rod and turn the headstock to hopefully obtain almost no taper -
aiming for a lot less than 1 thou per inch! 
Providing I can get the foam off and whatever glue, being able to run the carriage back and forth with the dial indicator
rubbing on the rod body should then tell me how well the carriage is behaving.

.
	

		
			
		

		
	













Doubtless, I will then have to do a fresh centre point and re-zero the tailstock.

Regards
Doug


----------



## dgrev

Well, as of this arvo it was all down hill. No matter what I did, the final sit of the headstock could not be predicted when the 4 anchor cap screws were tightened. Every time this would draw the headstock towards the apron and induce a taper.

In the end, I backed them all off and left it sit like that till I get back to it tomorrow arvo.

The screws all seem to want to rotate the head to the right for some strange reason.

Sigh.


----------



## pdentrem

Hopefully the shaft is not knurled to grab the rubber coating. Seems you are getting handle on the lathe.


----------



## dgrev

Pierre

It is not knurled, but does have a spiral like roughness on it. However, that is consistent so I can allow for it when using it as a parrallel test tool.

The thought occurred to me overnight that the adjuster screws could be part of the problem with the head. I will try backing them right off and see if that makes a difference. 

I will also move the headstock multiple times through all of its travel. Hopefully that may make it relax and move any grit etc that could be causing the issue.


----------



## dgrev

Pierre and Bob

*SUCCESS!  *

After quite a few hours of perseverance I am pleased to report that I now have 1 thou in 5 1/2" (length of my unsupported alloy turning bar) taper. 

So, I will be content with that. Trying to attain perfection would be an exercise in futility!

The printer rod was a huge help in that it gave me a reliable reference. Due to the spiral mark from the sponge coating, which was not going to come off without being aggressive, I  chose 2 reference points and retracted the dial indicator probe when moving back and forth between the 2. It can be done accurately if you are gentle. The reduced diameter RHS end gave me a handy cross-check that the bar hadn't deflected with all the dial indicator probing that happened countless times today as I could gently revolve the chuck by hand and verify the runout had not altered.

It was a very frustrating experience due to the spring in the headstock. In the end I put a washer under the cap screw closest to the operator. This helped reduce the spring/unpredictable movement effect. Until I did that, I was on a hiding to nowhere!

Initially the other 3 cap screws were also having an effect on the spring back too, but after much moving of the headstock left to right whatever was causing the issue with them disappeared from the equation and it was just the front right cap screw that was the problem.

But I was still faced with 40 or so thou spring when backing the screw off to move the headstock. I discovered that if I left the other 3 loose and cinched down this one (front right) all the way I could then predict the end reading give or take a couple of thous, so had to keep at it until is landed at the the desired tolerance. Then a case of gently cinching up the other 3 in a regimented order every time. Bit like doing up the wheel nuts on your car in that set pattern.

Running between centres was not so successful as I have a 14 thou runout even after re-zeroing the tailstock using the razor blade method and a freshly turned centre point in the 3 jaw chuck. 
The live centre point does not seem quite right - I think it is giving me a false zero - I need to take a very close look at it and even with 2 pairs of magnifying glasses on I can't focus on it - the joys of getting older! 
So will need to find a magnifying glass.

I knew that bedding down a lathe was a precise affair but never imagined it could by this finicky. However, I do think there is a back story to the history of this lathe that I will probably never know.


----------



## Downunder Bob

G'day Doug, I'm back again, we went away for a quick trip, but back now. Looks like you are making progress, Tat one screw pulling it over all the time I'm wondering if I didn't have a depressed wear mark under the head and it was pulling in to that, however it appears that by putting a washer under it you fixed it, seams to prove a point.

One thou over 51/2 inches isn't bad it will do for now.

Time to move on and start using your new lathe, getting to know it and brushing up on turning skills.


----------



## dgrev

Bob, thanks.

Wondered what happened to you. Thought I would give it a bit longer before getting worried.

A good training job for me will be to make the height setting devices that go on the quick change tool holders. 
For some bizarre reason, all 4 of my ones are missing. 

On 2 of the holders there is a running thread with an allen key recess, but no cap screw head. These look too short to me to do the job as there would not be enough thread to project above the height device for a back nut to lock it.
On the other 2 the running thread is missing altogether along with 2 square head cap screws on each holder. 

See here for what I assume they should look like.
<http://www.bison-bial.com/spare-parts-and-accessories/u-6876/0>
Why buy them when I have a lathe and can make them!

So, do you have any idea of how tight a fit the skirt on them is in the 2 cam like fingers that rotate out from the head?
<https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/spi...ts/t-00m-quick-change-toolpo-st/p/IND4454800K>
I would assume that they don't have to be a tight fit, because the lower finger would support the skirt, but, there is an upper finger and I doubt it is there for decoration?

Also, I went all over the QCT head trying to find any markings at all. There are none, likewise on the tool holders. You asked me about that quite a while back and I did not get to check it out till today.

Regards
Doug


----------



## tjb

dgrev said:


> Pierre and Bob
> 
> *SUCCESS! *
> 
> After quite a few hours of perseverance I am pleased to report that I now have 1 thou in 5 1/2" (length of my unsupported alloy turning bar) taper.
> 
> So, I will be content with that. Trying to attain perfection would be an exercise in futility!
> 
> The printer rod was a huge help in that it gave me a reliable reference. Due to the spiral mark from the sponge coating, which was not going to come off without being aggressive, I  chose 2 reference points and retracted the dial indicator probe when moving back and forth between the 2. It can be done accurately if you are gentle. The reduced diameter RHS end gave me a handy cross-check that the bar hadn't deflected with all the dial indicator probing that happened countless times today as I could gently revolve the chuck by hand and verify the runout had not altered.
> 
> It was a very frustrating experience due to the spring in the headstock. In the end I put a washer under the cap screw closest to the operator. This helped reduce the spring/unpredictable movement effect. Until I did that, I was on a hiding to nowhere!
> 
> Initially the other 3 cap screws were also having an effect on the spring back too, but after much moving of the headstock left to right whatever was causing the issue with them disappeared from the equation and it was just the front right cap screw that was the problem.
> 
> But I was still faced with 40 or so thou spring when backing the screw off to move the headstock. I discovered that if I left the other 3 loose and cinched down this one (front right) all the way I could then predict the end reading give or take a couple of thous, so had to keep at it until is landed at the the desired tolerance. Then a case of gently cinching up the other 3 in a regimented order every time. Bit like doing up the wheel nuts on your car in that set pattern.
> 
> Running between centres was not so successful as I have a 14 thou runout even after re-zeroing the tailstock using the razor blade method and a freshly turned centre point in the 3 jaw chuck.
> The live centre point does not seem quite right - I think it is giving me a false zero - I need to take a very close look at it and even with 2 pairs of magnifying glasses on I can't focus on it - the joys of getting older!
> So will need to find a magnifying glass.
> 
> I knew that bedding down a lathe was a precise affair but never imagined it could by this finicky. However, I do think there is a back story to the history of this lathe that I will probably never know.


Congratulations!

I've been following this thread with curiosity.  You've been getting great advice from obvious experts, and it's been a real education to me.

Hope you enjoy using your now-functional lathe.

Regards,
Terry


----------



## dgrev

Terry

Thanks. It has certainly been a learning experience, the path put before me by Bob and Pierre has undoubtedly helped a great deal. I won't call any of this "easy", but without their help it would have been much more prolonged and I would have had to discover for myself (the repetitive way) how to solve the problems by trial and error - probably lots of errors...... Without their help I most certainly would have not had the correct order to tackle the taper problem. 
I had believed it was a bed twist due to an out of level issue, rather than the headstock alignment it actually was. This was from reading lots of "how to" information on the internet which almost all fixates on levelling to be the crucial issue for a lathe. I know now that it is just one factor and to paraphrase Bob, "it is a starting point, just get it reasonably level, then move on to the other adjustments that could have been fiddled with at some
time in your lathe's past". 
For sure, the worst issue for me has been that spring back when trying to aim the headstock. Until such time as I worked out how to deal with those cap screws that hold down the headstock and a method of allowing for the movement when they were tightened cost me many hours.

Regards
Doug.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob, thanks.
> 
> Wondered what happened to you. Thought I would give it a bit longer before getting worried.
> 
> A good training job for me will be to make the height setting devices that go on the quick change tool holders.
> For some bizarre reason, all 4 of my ones are missing.
> 
> On 2 of the holders there is a running thread with an allen key recess, but no cap screw head. These look too short to me to do the job as there would not be enough thread to project above the height device for a back nut to lock it.
> On the other 2 the running thread is missing altogether along with 2 square head cap screws on each holder.
> 
> See here for what I assume they should look like.
> <http://www.bison-bial.com/spare-parts-and-accessories/u-6876/0>
> Why buy them when I have a lathe and can make them!
> 
> So, do you have any idea of how tight a fit the skirt on them is in the 2 cam like fingers that rotate out from the head?
> <https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/spi...ts/t-00m-quick-change-toolpo-st/p/IND4454800K>
> I would assume that they don't have to be a tight fit, because the lower finger would support the skirt, but, there is an upper finger and I doubt it is there for decoration?
> 
> Also, I went all over the QCT head trying to find any markings at all. There are none, likewise on the tool holders. You asked me about that quite a while back and I did not get to check it out till today.
> 
> Regards
> Doug



Doug you have listed two different brands. There are quite a few of this design made by different companies in Europe, and they are not all interchangeable, so be careful. I'll have to dig mine out, it's a different brand again, I'll try to get some dimensions, and maye a pic or two The two flanges are actually on a helix and work like a cam, You would have to make them out of some pretty tough steel because they are hardened, A piece of axle steel would be good.

Send me a pic of yours so I can see what is missing, also note what the threads are, because I reckon I can get spares of some of the parts, if they are the same as mine.


----------



## dgrev

Bob. 

I will get some photos tomorrow. I need to see if I can find some regular axle steel. That huge 2 1/2" inch dia one I have is almost mild steel in the centre so will not be suitable.

I realised I showed 2 different brands, that was just for quick reference. However I have no idea of what the correct version for mine would be. Chances are it came from Paramount Browns or Modern Tools(?) in Adelaide.

Regards
Doug.


----------



## dgrev

Bob

There seems to be a huge number of variations.

Here is another.

<https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tool-ho...7a:m:m2mh3gkj9ImZck5USzy86wg&var=601497798540>


----------



## dgrev

Bob. In the meantime, here is a photo I just found of one of the tool holders. I note there is a letter stamped on the inner face. Hopefully there is more and it will mean something.






Here is the normal view (with that SECO tip holder).





Although I am clicking on "full image" for some reason this forum is displaying the photos in reduced size, so you cannot see the markings in the first photo.

Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Doug,
it may have although I have not seen that style in either shop, but that don't mean they haven't got them or maybe used to have them. If it is unbranded then maybe its a cheap chinese knockoff that is no longer around. They seem to have all gone to the Aloris style, which is much easier to get and  a lot cheaper.

that larger dia shaft you have maybe soft in the middle but it will still be tough, and you can always heat treat it after machining, but it might be easier to get a smaller dia one from  a car mechanic.


dgrev said:


> Bob
> 
> There seems to be a huge number of variations.
> 
> Here is another.
> 
> <https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tool-holder-with-V-Groove-for-Quick-Change-Tool-Post-Model-000-100-200/302648235642?hash=item46773d967a:m:m2mh3gkj9ImZck5USzy86wg&var=601497798540>



This appears to be a chinese knockoff of the American Aloris, which is what I have, quite happy with it. The genuine Aloris is about 50 to 80% dearer depends on any specials at the time. Note that your style tool post and holders cannot mixed with Aloris type, they are totally incompatible. 

It is much easier to get spare tool holders and other parts for the Aloris type, they are also a simpler design making them more suitable to be made at home, although you do really need a milling machine or a shaper. Or milling capability on the lathe as I'm working on , but it will be while yet.


----------



## dgrev

Bob

This looks very similar to mine, allowing for the passage of time and upgrades.

<https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L295>


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob. In the meantime, here is a photo I just found of one of the tool holders. I note there is a letter stamped on the inner face. Hopefully there is more and it will mean something.
> View attachment 270826
> 
> 
> Here is the normal view (with that SECO tip holder).
> View attachment 270827
> 
> 
> Although I am clicking on "full image" for some reason this forum is displaying the photos in reduced size, so you cannot see the markings in the first photo.
> 
> Doug



I ntice in that second photo that the tool is not setup correctly, you should loosen the 3 clamping screws and slide the tool to the right so that the back end is fully under the last screw, the way it is, it's not clamping correctly, it even looks as if that last screw is bent from using it this way.

Also how are you lockingh the tool holder onto the tool post without the clamping piece.


----------



## dgrev

Bob

I noticed that and corrected it.

Because the height stop is missing, I have to set the tip height to the live centre point each time I change tools. It is a nuisance for sure.

Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob
> 
> This looks very similar to mine, allowing for the passage of time and upgrades.
> 
> <https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L295>


Yes it does, similar to my original one also, but still not cheap, I think you'l find even the genuine Aloris is cheaper with many knockoffs even cheaper again and you'll have multiple suppliers not just one, and one that doesn't have the best of reputations.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob
> 
> I noticed that and corrected it.
> 
> Because the height stop is missing, I have to set the tip height to the live centre point each time I change tools. It is a nuisance for sure.
> 
> Doug



Do you not have even a single complete tool holder with adjustable height setting.


----------



## pdentrem

The height stops appears to be an easy job to make. I bought a Phase 2 wedge style to replace the 4-way tool post to get away from all the shimming required to use it. Just about any kind of QCTP system is better than the 4-way! As you get some time on the machine you will start spending more money on tools etc. Enjoy


----------



## dgrev

Bob. No, none of them are complete. All are missing the height  device. Some are missing some of the grub screws IIRC 2 are missing the running thread for the height device.

Pierre. I had wondered about reverting to the 4 - way tool post, you just answered that question for me.

Regards
Doug


----------



## pdentrem

If you have to use a 4-way, get a couple sets of feeler gauges to help set the height of the tools. Usually one can only really get 2-3 tools in a 4-way due to the how the job calls for the tools and in which order.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Doug & Pierre, the Phase II is a chinese knockoff of the Aloris, the parts are interchangeable at each size range. they just use a different code for the size. My Aloris is the BXA which i think is called 200 series in Phase II and all the other knockoffs.

My other QCTP that came with the lathe as an optional extra, it also had a conventional 4 way tool post, is the Italian made ALGRA It looks quite similar to the one Doug has. We can compare some measurements and see if they are interchangeable.



Downunder Bob said:


> Doug you have listed two different brands. There are quite a few of this design made by different companies in Europe, and they are not all interchangeable, so be careful. I'll have to dig mine out, it's a different brand again, I'll try to get some dimensions, and maye a pic or two The two flanges are actually on a helix and work like a cam, You would have to make them out of some pretty tough steel because they are hardened, A piece of axle steel would be good.
> 
> Send me a pic of yours so I can see what is missing, also note what the threads are, because I reckon I can get spares of some of the parts, if they are the same as mine.



Correction to the above.

The two flanges are not on a helix and do not work like a cam. They are parallel and on mine the the gap is 4mm the corresponding flange on the height adjusting spool is 3.5mm. A bit like a cotton reel. So it's not critical, easily made on the lathe. The hard bit is the eccentric further down the shaft, although I don't think the tolerances are anything to worry about, the top and bottom dia's. are 13.8  which are concentric with the other dia's above the main block.and the holes in the block that they fit into are14.1,  The central section has a dia. of 11.2, that fits in the hole 15.3 in the clamping plate.The eccentricity appears to be 1mm. the clamping plate moves 1mm when the pin is rotated.

The main block is 3 sided and is 80.2mm square, the height is 56.1 The vertical "V" slides in the block are 65 apart, peak to peak. Hope that helps.


----------



## dgrev

Bob

Here are some photos I took today for you.
Unfortunately the markings were a bust.
There are some other photos I want to ask some questions about, but will do separate posts for clarity.

I ran out of time and forgot all about getting measurements for you. I will do that tomorrow.

QCTP


----------



## dgrev

Now for some "what's this for" questions.

Photo 1 
- Far side of the carriage, 2 sets of threaded holes, differing heights and differing dimensions apart.
Any idea what their purpose is?
- You will also notice 2 pieces of rag sticking up out of the cross slide. They are blocking 2 threaded holes
also of unknown purpose? They do however collect swathe and drop it into the cross slide area so I
will plug them with grub screws (if I have any that size) or small bolts.





Photo 2
- Its at thing! First off I thought it was a parting tool with a broken carbide tip. But closer examination
shows the carbide does not appear to be broken. It also appears to aim way too low for a part off tool.
So what is it?
I have no idea why the forum software randomly turns photos on their sides or upside down. It is not
me doing it!


----------



## dgrev

For your entertainment, look what I discovered today when I pulled the cross-slide/compound slide apart for a much needed clean and oil. This was due to the swiveling action of the compound slide not wanting to happen unless I slackened the far-too-big-to-allow-an-open-end-spanner-to-fit-all-the-way-on nuts many facet turns off.
It may be this is a factory job, but probably not. I wonder what happened to the originals?




A couple of high tensile bolts, some ham fisted oxy-acetylene weld resulting in 2 dodgy 
sliding (not) retainers.
Does anyone have photos of what the real things should look like please?


----------



## dgrev

I have a steady rest, but am missing the retainer/foot device. Suggestions please as what I can substitute that will be robust enough to do the job?




Another photo flipped on its side by the forum software!


----------



## dgrev

Another job after the success with the headstock was to re-zero the tailstock.
Went through the whole procedure, fresh centre point, razor blade between the centres, adjusted tailstock, all good.

Did a reface on the alloy bar, re centre drilled it, set up live centre against it and did a LHS and RHS 2 pass turn and measured.
34 thou out on RHS on 5" bar. Expletive not typed in here!
Surely the sodding headstock hasn't moved?
Rolled back the tailstock, re-turned the bar at each end unsupported and measured and 1 thou difference. Phew! 

So now the problem was, what the heck is going on? 

So, the whole centre procedure again and yep, 34 thou out again...... If nothing, this thing is consistent in how far out it wants to be.

So standing there looking at it wanting to repurpose the tailstock as a boat anchor and I got thinking, "bet the bar will spring when I back off
the tailstock"?
It did.
So I decided I would play this game the tailstock way.
Bob will probably shake his head at me being unconventional again, but worth a try.
I put the tail stock back into the bar and set up the dial indicator, then adjusted the tail stock across 17 thou.
Checked by winding the centre in and out and looking for any bar deflection to confirm I had centre (also with help of dial indicator) but mainly trusting eye sight.
Then re-turned each end of the alloy bar (tailstock supported) and measured =  1 thou difference.

Ran the dial indicator, bar supported by tailstock and then without and bingo, 1 thou difference.

Then just out of curiosity I set up my peep sight device and it agreed that the tailstock was in line. Photo attached.
Due to camera not being able to cope, I could not get the photo with correct distance from peep sight to show concentric rings with just a hair of clearance between the circumference of each ring.
What you see as the white glow in the central hole is the light reflecting off the live centre in the tail stock. Add in some hand shake and I am off centre a tad when taking the photo, but you get the idea.
Samsung doubtless never expected their phone camera to be used for this sort of thing, so surprising that the results were as good as this.






That was it for today. Progress is pleasing and I am satisfied the lathe is now bedded down at its new home.

Regards
Doug!


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob
> 
> Here are some photos I took today for you.
> Unfortunately the markings were a bust.
> There are some other photos I want to ask some questions about, but will do separate posts for clarity.
> 
> I ran out of time and forgot all about getting measurements for you. I will do that tomorrow.
> 
> QCTP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 270880
> View attachment 270881
> View attachment 270882
> View attachment 270883
> View attachment 270884



 A couple of good shots of the tool post, It looks a size smaller than mine, that doesn't matter. It's only two sided mine is three, again doesn't matter.

It is of exactly the same design, but that don't prove anything, as I said before there are at least 4 manufacturers of that design in Europe that I know off, and mostly their parts are not interchangeable.

The vertical V groove slides are crucial, and must be the same. The camlock spindles, you appear to have two of them, that's good, because they'd be one of the hardest parts to make.

The height adjustment piece, looks a bit like a cotton reel, has a tapped hole running through the middle, it screws onto the threaded rod on the topside of the tool; holder, and in conjunction with the locking spindle locates the height of the tool holder and locks into place. Another screw, the same as the square headed screws for clamping the tool, is screwed down into the spool and locks it into place. 

I'd post some pics if I could, but for some reason my photo card will not download to my computer.


----------



## dgrev

Bob. Thanks for the details. I did wonder what the appropriate method was to lock the cotton reel in place.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> For your entertainment, look what I discovered today when I pulled the cross-slide/compound slide apart for a much needed clean and oil. This was due to the swiveling action of the compound slide not wanting to happen unless I slackened the far-too-big-to-allow-an-open-end-spanner-to-fit-all-the-way-on nuts many facet turns off.
> It may be this is a factory job, but probably not. I wonder what happened to the originals?
> View attachment 270888
> 
> A couple of high tensile bolts, some ham fisted oxy-acetylene weld resulting in 2 dodgy
> sliding (not) retainers.
> Does anyone have photos of what the real things should look like please.
> 
> They don't look original, I'll try to get a look at mine tomorrow, I'll take photos, but until I can sort out why I can't post them, All I can do is try.


----------



## Downunder Bob

Actually I don't need to take photos, My lathe uses socket head hex screws that screw into a "T" nut that fits in the circular groove. I can't get at them at the moment because I have a job set up that I can't move until it's finished. SHHS also make it easier to get a spanner in.


----------



## dgrev

I got to the point I heartedly detested the SHHS in the headstock of my lathe. Especially so the ones at the gear end which are upside down. The one behind the 127/120 Tooth gear was very difficult to get into.
Normal hex head bolts would have been so much easier.
However, for my compound slide, anything would be an improvement over those nuts and mangled bolt heads.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> I have a steady rest, but am missing the retainer/foot device. Suggestions please as what I can substitute that will be robust enough to do the job?
> View attachment 270889
> 
> Another photo flipped on its side by the forum software!



 A piece of 1/2" plate should be sufficient. should be able to get some scrap from the fabrication guys. 

Your pics being flipped are you posting from a camera or a phone, I've noticed a lot of people have trouble with flipped pics from a phone.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Now for some "what's this for" questions.
> 
> Photo 1
> - Far side of the carriage, 2 sets of threaded holes, differing heights and differing dimensions apart.
> Any idea what their purpose is?
> - You will also notice 2 pieces of rag sticking up out of the cross slide. They are blocking 2 threaded holes
> also of unknown purpose? They do however collect swathe and drop it into the cross slide area so I
> will plug them with grub screws (if I have any that size) or small bolts.
> View attachment 270885
> 
> 
> Photo 2
> - Its at thing! First off I thought it was a parting tool with a broken carbide tip. But closer examination
> shows the carbide does not appear to be broken. It also appears to aim way too low for a part off tool.
> So what is it?
> I have no idea why the forum software randomly turns photos on their sides or upside down. It is not
> me doing it!
> View attachment 270886
> 
> View attachment 270887


Is that a brazed in tip. It looks home made and looks all wrong it's upside down and the rake is wrong, badly wrong, but it does look like a parting tool, just wrong.


----------



## dgrev

Bob. 

Phone pics. 
Gave up on camera years ago. 
Phone is always charged and on me. 16mp quality but usually turned down to 8mp as sufficient for my needs and does not take up so much storage space. 
Camera is 12mp, but does have a better lens (zoom). However, by the time the camera finishes analysing the focus/light/zodiac and whatever else it mucks around doing, any quick event has gone and I get a photo minus the subject. Phone beats it hands down there. 
Likewise the torch app on the phone. Invaluable!
Camera is always not where I am because I did not intend to use it so didn't take it with me and it goes flat when not being used, so have to put it on charge for an hour first.

Doug.


----------



## dgrev

Bob - ok, weird parting tool it is then. Can't see me using it. Myself and parting tools seem to be non-compatible. I try my hardest to get them on centre and set up right. But they still chatter and misbehave.

What am I doing wrong?

Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Downunder Bob said:


> Is that a brazed in tip. It looks home made and looks all wrong it's upside down and the rake is wrong, badly wrong, but it does look like a parting tool, just wrong.



Also the two holes with the rag stuffed in are for mounting  a rear tool post or other attachment.

 The other two holes at the back of the carriage are for mounting a taper turning attachment


----------



## dgrev

Probably all once available for this lathe and unobtainable now. Unlikely that I will need them.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob.
> 
> Phone pics.
> Gave up on camera years ago.
> Phone is always charged and on me. 16mp quality but usually turned down to 8mp as sufficient for my needs and does not take up so much storage space.
> Camera is 12mp, but does have a better lens (zoom). However, by the time the camera finishes analysing the focus/light/zodiac and whatever else it mucks around doing, any quick event has gone and I get a photo minus the subject. Phone beats it hands down there.
> Likewise the torch app on the phone. Invaluable!
> Camera is always not where I am because I did not intend to use it so didn't take it with me and it goes flat when not being used, so have to put it on charge for an hour first.
> 
> Doug.


Doug, have to agree with all the hassles re cameras, however I find that the camera just does take better pics, so I keep it charged if I think I might need it.  plus my camera is just a little pocket snap job so it doesn't get too carried away with all the zoom analyzing and thinking, so don't miss many shots. I also have not come to terms with current phone for taking pics.  (It's only two years old, give me time.) However at the moment my computer is refusing to read the cameras SD card.


----------



## dgrev

Bob. Know the SD card problem had it myself. Does your camera have a USB adaptor cable? I always download direct from phone to computer. None of that software that comes with the phone, it only makes things difficult. I just use "explorer" in Windows and treat phone as an additional disk.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Probably all once available for this lathe and unobtainable now. Unlikely that I will need them.


 Current models will probably still fit, but as far as rear tool post is concerned, quite easy to make. Quite a few articles on this and other forums on making them, also on You tube. You might consider making, getting one as they are reputed to solve most parting woes.

The other thing with parting problems is loose gibs on cross and compound slide, you should always lock compound when parting
 That particular parting tool you had was developed some years ago in an attempt to solve some parting problems I understood they were generally successful

I haven't had the need to do much parting since getting my new lathe, but the little I've done has been fine, Usually you just need a sharp tool, on center and square to axis, good steady feed, but if any gibbs are loose or bearings a bit slack, it won't work. Check the faces under tool post must be perfectly flat and clean everything locked down tight.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Bob. Know the SD card problem had it myself. Does your camera have a USB adaptor cable? I always download direct from phone to computer. None of that software that comes with the phone, it only makes things difficult. I just use "explorer" in Windows and treat phone as an additional disk.



Yes I think I've got one somewhere, just have to find it. It's actually my partners camera, but she bought a new one and gave me this one, I'll ask if she knows where it is.


----------



## pdentrem

With a used/older unit, the tail stock will likely not be on center as you have found. The marks for the tail stock are not even close and as the ways and the bottom of the tail stock wear they are even further out. Another item to throw the whole thing out of true, is the ram and it’s locking mechanism. The further the ram is extended the worst things can get. Locking the ram can make a big difference.


----------



## dgrev

Pierre

There are no marks on the tailstock for centreing, all I could go on was how even it sat on the base.

Your point noted about wear. I will make sure the ways are well oiled. When you think about it,
sliding the tailstock along the ways to centre tools or drill or support long jobs would all be
a significant point of wear. Admittedly not as much as the saddle constantly moving left to
right. But down that right hand end of the lathe, the ways would easily be overlooked. 

I realised I had to lock the ram when I noticed it was backing off. Lesson learnt!

Regards
Doug


----------



## dgrev

Lathe Identified!





I am pretty well satisfied I have now identified the original manufacturer of the lathe. After much internet searching it would appear to be an early version of the Shenwai SW-900B. 
It appears the company is long gone, sometime around 30 years ago.
They made 2 versions of the SW-900, mine with the vertical headstock control face and the SW-900 with the stepped headstock control face.
Mine does not have the light, on/off switch and green button above the threading ratio selector handles but in all other respects is obviously the same unit. 
On the back of mine is a large "SW" sticker, which I think clinches it!

See attached photos.

,
	

		
			
		

		
	









In the photo of the grey lathe one that was auctioned in America, there is a very strange device in the tool holder, any ideas what that is?
But just as puzzling, what is the tailstock doing between the saddle and head stock?


----------



## Downunder Bob

Another point to check is the tailstock actually true to centerline of the lathe. So with the ram retracted line it up with the headstock now extend it fully and see if its still lined up, probably not. What's happening here is that if it's not lined up triue as you extend it, it will move out of alignment.
Another way to check it is with the tailstock locked to the bed, and ram fully extended and locked, set up a dial indicator on the carriage to track on the side of the ram, now wind the carriage the full length of the ram, the dial indicator will tell the sad story>

Another test while you're there loosen the ram lock and push/pull the ram side ways you'll see how much wear is in there. Then re-tighten the ram lock and slacken the tailstock/bed clamp, see how much movement is in there, be careful to not tilt the tailstock, just slide it sideways. and also twist it. This will show why you can not use the tailstock when setting up the headstock, it's just too unreliable, in fact it's just about the most unreliable part of alathe, you should always set it fresh each time you use it for anything important. If your tailstock is riding on a "V" bed then it should be pretty good in sideways movement, most of the wear will be confined to the ram. It's also pretty common for an older lathe for the tailstock to be below center, if it's over one thou, it can be shimmed.


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> Lathe Identified!
> View attachment 271055
> 
> I am pretty well satisfied I have now identified the original manufacturer of the lathe. After much internet searching it would appear to be an early version of the Shenwai SW-900B.
> It appears the company is long gone, sometime around 30 years ago.
> They made 2 versions of the SW-900, mine with the vertical headstock control face and the SW-900 with the stepped headstock control face.
> Mine does not have the light, on/off switch and green button above the threading ratio selector handles but in all other respects is obviously the same unit.
> On the back of mine is a large "SW" sticker, which I think clinches it!
> 
> See attached photos.
> 
> ,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 271051
> View attachment 271052
> 
> 
> In the photo of the grey lathe one that was auctioned in America, there is a very strange device in the tool holder, any ideas what that is?
> But just as puzzling, what is the tailstock doing between the saddle and head stock?
> 
> View attachment 271053
> 
> View attachment 271054



Well hunted down, we'll have to call you sherlock. with such skills you should have been able to find out that the strange device is in fact a ball turner, with it you can make a perfectly spherical ball end on a shaft. It looks a bit frail to me, the ones that I have used were much more robust than that one. But they do work.


----------



## pdentrem

When I saw that SW decal, I had a feeling I had seen it before!


----------



## dgrev

Pierre.

It does make you wonder just how many lathes they produced in their time. Someone told me it could be a Shin Shun, but that turned out to be a dead end. 
Luckily the Aussie shop that sold it did not notice or forgot to remove the SW sticker when they rebadged the lathe!
Otherwise I have found no stampings or any other identifying markings.

Bob. 

It was quicker to ask than web search. I did wonder if it was a ball cutter. But seemed way too fragile to me for that job, especially given the radius of the track.

Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Hey Doug, Hows it going, You've gone quiet, everything OK?


----------



## dgrev

Hello Bob

Sorry for disappearing, I got entangled with some non-lathe jobs. One of which was a brushless 100A heavy duty alternator that was in a system with a total of 5 faults. Been going round and round in circles fault finding.

Anyway, that is solved as of today, so hopefully I can get back on track.

Whilst fighting the alternator, I did do a side job. I have an old American WW2 voltage regulator that needs installing in a vehicle but it was missing the 2 back nuts that retain the conduit terminators. 
They can't be had. 
So I decided I would sacrifice a couple of old plumbing fittings and bore then internally thread them to the 18 tpi Yank thread. These fittings may be an example of the specific to WW2 production threads that nobody now knows the reasoning as to why they were used.
I did not have an internal threading bar (one is on its way) so used an internal boring bar set at a weird angle on the compound slide, was going so 
well but due to the angle of the bar I touched the far side shoulder of the job and snapped the tip off the carbide tool being a fraction of a second late in disconnecting the carriage half nut . 
The other end of the tip was already broken and there was no spares with the lathe. 
So that brought proceedings to a halt. It all sits in place as is so that I do not lose the set up.
One problem I was encountering was taper due to flexing of the bar. So was going to make 2 thou increment passes from then on to get 
the final fit, won't happen now till I get the new tips. See photo.





I do realise that setting the compound at IIRC 40° or so back the opposite way is quite wrong, but I was trying to get the tip point 
perpendicular to the job and be able to replicate roughly the 29° recommended feed angle used for external threading.
I don't doubt I have it all wrong. But the thread is not critical and does feel quite nice when I screw the terminator into it until the 
taper causes it to bind.




Regards
Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

Doug, no problem, I just worry when some one just disappears without warning. As long as you're still fighting the good fight. That little threading job looks good, you're just running out of clearance, pity you don't have a proper internal threading bar. Mind you that job is only in brass you could quite easily use a HSS cutter. You could easily make one, just weld (arc) a small piece of HSS to the end of a suitable bar, grind it up and you're good to go. 

Still set your compound to the angle you want, and swivel the toolpost so the bar is square to the job, and finish the job. You can also reuse broken bits of carbide, by silver soldering them to a suitable steel shank. Back in the day before inset tool holders existed that's how all carbide tools were made. You just need a silicon carbide, (green) or diamond, grinding wheel to sharpen it.


----------



## Downunder Bob

G'day Doug, haven't heard from you in a while. Hope all is ok. I've been away a bit travelling around this great country, so didn't notice you weren't around.


----------



## dgrev

G'day Bob,
I am still here thanks. Just moved onto the next job last night co-incidentally, posted here:

<https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/difficult-access-carbide.74611/#post-625630>

Your thoughts are welcome?

Regards
Doug


----------



## sixball

I just joined this site yesterday. I have been searching for information on my lathe and I have found more on this thread than anyplace on the internet, especially from all the work you have done setting up and adjusting your Hafco. I may also have another piece of this puzzle. My lathe is a Shenwai SW 900B made in 1985. It has a red SW logo on the name plate similar to the yellow one on your machine. It also has a sticker with the Shenwai name and a JET logo. I'll try to post a picture tomorrow. Also the Grizzly DF1237G is the same machine. Grizzly doesn't show the DF1237G on their parts page any more but I have bought some parts for the G1003 that fit. I have had mine for several years but am cleaning it setting it up properly and making few repairs. The info here is a great help, Thank you for posting it.   Tom
This one is not mine


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## sixball

Here is a picture of mine with a red SW on the main face plate similar the yellow one yours along with SHENAWI. Next to that is what appears to be an adhesive metal sticker with both SHENWAI and an older style JET logo. It seems that the difference in yours, mine , and the Grizzly is the switch plate. There is even a difference in the two Shenwais.
.


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## dgrev

Hello All (especially Bob). 
I thought it was time to re-visit the lathe and see if I could improve on things now that it has had some months to settle in (with a limited amount of use).
I noticed that the tailstock seemed out due to a spring when I tried to use the live centre on a 6" piece of bar. So did the razor blade adjustment as per Bob's instructions. It was quite a bit out which surprised me. 
So it was back to using the dial indicator on the saddle and checking each end of the bar until I was satisfied that the taper I attained last time of 0.001" per inch had not changed. As before, with the headstock, it is very difficult to align due to the 4 allen head bolts having such an exaggerated effect on the alignment as they are cinched down. But I got the run out to 0.0015" in 6". Very chuffed with that.


----------



## dgrev

All
Next job was to do something about the thread gear data plate. The previous owner appears to have hung the chuck key on the thread gear levers and ruined the data plate in the process. About 8 hours work at pixel level gave me the artwork for a new plate.
I have 2 types of sticker material, 1 is silver the other is clear. Have not decided whether I will stick the clear on a piece of thin alloy or just use the silver sticker material. Regardless I will apply a layer of clear to protect the information. Details are in a previous post on this thread, but I use a laser printer (or photocopy machine) to print onto the sticker material as the medium is thermal set whereas regular printer ink smudges. See photos.


----------



## dgrev

I also did another data diagram to attach to the cover to the left of the spindle gear cover as a reminder of the gear configuration for metric as to imperial for threading.




I am still on the hunt for the remaining missing gear. The Grizzly site has been continuously showing it as out of stock ever since I bought this lathe. Sigh.....
What I have allows me to do the common metric threads so I should be ok, but it would be nice to have the full set.

Regards
Doug


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## dgrev

Hello Tom.

Good to know there is another Shen Wai out there. You mention you bought some parts from Grizzly that fitted. What parts were those please?

Regards
Doug


----------



## sixball

I have not put the gear I bought in yet but they look the same. It is one of the gears in the gear box on the back shaft that runs the lead screw. In the Shenwai parts list there are 3 gears with the same number. It is a double gear with 16 and 32 teeth. For the Grizzly G1003 the parts list shows what look like the same 3 gears but with two different numbers. I ordered one of each. They are the same except one has a bushing so it can be used on a smaller shaft. The Grizzly DF1237G is the same as ours but Grizzly doesn't show it in their parts lists. They seem to be running out of other parts too. I thing a lot of the parts are the same but there is no standard number that could be used for cross reference. It is likely a plan. 
I am just finishing getting my Mill/Drill going and getting back to the lathe. I need to tear it down far enough to change the gear and do a deep cleaning. Your posts above will be a great help.


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## john.k

A guy I used to do work for bought one of these about mid 80s,he s still got it ,and I doubt its done more than 10 hrs running in all those years......I tried to buy it about 20 yrs ago,but hes made of money,and simply wont sell anything....easy enough to understand when he owned every farm in his street,and been selling out to developers at around $1 m each.........now he s got fancy houses all round ,and his cows still c****p on the roadway.......as he says......they gotta go somewhere.


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## dgrev

John. It will make a great buy one day. Hopefully considering your environment, it is well oiled. Doug


----------



## Downunder Bob

dgrev said:


> I also did another data diagram to attach to the cover to the left of the spindle gear cover as a reminder of the gear configuration for metric as to imperial for threading.
> View attachment 288043
> 
> I am still on the hunt for the remaining missing gear. The Grizzly site has been continuously showing it as out of stock ever since I bought this lathe. Sigh.....
> What I have allows me to do the common metric threads so I should be ok, but it would be nice to have the full set.
> 
> Regards
> Doug



G'day Doug, It's been a while, good to see your getting that lathe sorted, Your replacement charts look good. I look forward to seeing it sometime, Don't know when I'll get to visit the hill but it might even be later this year.


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## dgrev

Hello Bob.

I get back to it as I can. Other stuff takes priority. But the main ratio data plate was really annoying me as it was so hard to read when I did want to do a job with the lathe.

Regards
Doug


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## sixball

john.k said:


> A guy I used to do work for bought one of these about mid 80s,he s still got it ,and I doubt its done more than 10 hrs running in all those years......I tried to buy it about 20 yrs ago,but hes made of money,and simply wont sell anything....easy enough to understand when he owned every farm in his street,and been selling out to developers at around $1 m each.........now he s got fancy houses all round ,and his cows still c****p on the roadway.......as he says......they gotta go somewhere.



Do you think he might have the owners manual? That would be a great thing to have a copy of posted here.


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## dgrev

Me too, me too! Shen Wai manuals seem to be unobtainium.....


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## john.k

I dunno.......if you ve ever seen his workshop,you wouldnt have great expectations......he used to run trucks ,and evry intersting broken piece the drivers brought in used to sit on the lunch table,untill it could hold no more ,and was put outside and a "new" table sourced from kerbside cleanup.One time a driver was flaming flies with a spraycan of oil and the table caught fire.,and spread to the huge stacks of paperwork going back to the sixties.....the shed was saved,tho......Now ,he volunteers as a busdriver for pensioner outings,driving groups ten years younger than him around on day trips......but I will ask.


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## sixball

John, Thanks. My shop might look like that to others but I mostly know which pile things are in. That said I think I have the book for my Shinwai somewhere. I may have put it in a special place.


----------



## Punchy636

Hi Dgrev,
Trying to look for info on my lathe, and i came across this forum, looks like i have the exact same lathe as you, although i have no idea how to use it. Do you have a link for the manuals that you found for it still on hand at all?

Regards, Trent.


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## Punchy636

Here she is


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## dgrev

Trent

Looks good.

Wonder how the forward/reverse lever got snapped off?

I do not have links for any Shenwai manuals unfortunately they seem to be unobtainium.

I have downloaded numerous manuals for other lathes. By snippet here and a snippet there, I can get most of the information as
there is a lot of commonality.

No idea where they came from, but I will list the file names and if you do a google search you can hopefully find them.

If that fails get back to me and I will try and attach them here, but don't know if the forum will reject them due to size?

enco 12x36 510-2583 Lathe Manual.pdf
Manual_Jet-Lathe-1024P(S)-&-1236P(S).pdf
PL300 _cz1224_1237.pdf
276-62754-B441.pdf
AL960B L237D - Instruction Manual.pdf
Enco Manual 110-2034.pdf
m1112_m .pdf - may help to put "Shopfox" in search parameters also.

Regards
Doug


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## sixball

It's been a while but I have news. Yesterday while looking for something else in my shop I found the Operating Instructions book for my Shinwai SW-900B. It is smaller than I remembered 5"X 7" and 12 pages,14 counting the electrical diagram. Some of the illustrations will probably not be readable if I just enlarge and copy it but if there is interest here I'll spend some time on it and see if I can post a good copy here. I has some very helpful information. A least it was helpful to me.


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## dgrev

Sixball

YES PLEASE!!!!

Regards
Doug


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## sixball

OK, Doug, I'll start working on it. I was looking at it last night when I posted and some of the figures and writing is so small that I think I will have to completely remake some of the pages. I'll take it to a professional print shop in town today and see if they can enlarge it. I'll get it here as soon as I can. I recounted and It's 16 pages with the spec page and table of contents.


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## dgrev

Sixball. As much as I would like a copy of the manual, I don't want you to be spending lots of money on this. 
From what I have seen, a 16 page lathe manual (other brands) usually doesn't have much in depth info. Just  all the normal warnings etc. that are in all manuals from all brands.
Unless that is, SW did things differently?
Regards
Doug


----------



## sixball

I left it at the copy shop yesterday. They said they thought they could make clean enlarged copies. It won't be a big expense. There is no earth shaking information. Reading it will not make one a journeyman. It does cover changing spindle speed, power feed controls, etc. I think it would be a good addition here as this is the most informative thread on these machines I have found. It's good to have as much information in one spot as we have. What others have posted here has been a great help to me. I'll do a bit of payback.   Tom


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## dgrev

Tom. Thanks for that. Regards Doug


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## sixball

I picked up the copies today. They are far better than I expected and everything is clear. The illustrations are actually better than the originals. Now I have to figure out how to best get that clarity here. One thing I noticed while looking them over is that there is no brand name anywhere,. Not Shinwai, Hafco, Best Way, Jet...........nothing Just SW 900B. I'll get it on here soon.


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## dgrev

Tom. 
Excellent.
If your scanner gives an output of .jpg files around 0.750mb to 2mb per page, that should work.
.png is a good format.
But shy away from PDF if you can, that "locks" the file and does not allow resizing etc.

Regards
Doug


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## sixball

Will tis work or should I try it again?


----------



## sixball




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## dgrev

Tom. 
All good thanks. 
I was able to download them easily. 
Many thanks for the trouble you have gone to. 
Regards Doug


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## sixball

You are welcome Doug. I hope this will help you and others with these machines.


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## dgrev

Tom. 

Who knows, maybe somebody will surface with a SW-900A manual after seeing what you
have done.

Effectively however, it is just the tumbler gears and switch panel that make the difference between the 2 versions as far as I can tell.

Regards
Doug.


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## sixball

I have not seen another with the same switch set up as mine. The manual doesn't show switches. I don't know about the gear difference.


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## dgrev

Tom

Mine does not have the tumbler gear lever on the side. I has 3 shafts along the bed. Thread cut, drive shaft and on/off shaft. It also has the flat
face from the Norton box all the way down to the gear 2 gear selector levers. This is why I think it is the 900A. But essentially the same machine as yours. Regards Doug


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## rontlz

Hi Doug and everyone else,

i just purchased a Hafco AL-900A from a deceased estate also.
Upon closer examination of all the parts it appears i am missing the tailstock,
I rang Hafco and was told by a young sales rep that they never sold my 40 year old lathe!
Strange i said as it has your badge on it and thats where i got your phone number.

Does anyone have a suggestion on what might fit and where i could source one in Aus.

Regards,

Ron


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## NortonDommi

Sounds about right for Hafco after sales service!


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## dgrev

Ron.
Ditto to NortonDommi's comment.
As to the tailstock, from my research any tailstock from any Taiwanese lathe of that era with the same bed cross section should fit.
Your task will be to find a scrap yard etc. that has a dead lathe discarded out the back.
There are some of the original companies still in business in Taiwan from the 1980s. Who knows, they may still have a compatible tailstock.
Again, the task will be to find them.
Can you not back track through the previous owner's family what he did with the tailstock, it should not be too far from the lathe?


----------



## rontlz

Trying to backtrack now, but the lady says i have everything that she had!
You would think that a replacement tailstock for that size lathe should be able to be purchased new?

Doug, mine being the same model and seller as yours would it be the same original make as yours?

Ron


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## dgrev

Ron

Your 3 points addressed in order:

She thinks. 
Chances are she doesn't know. But you can only take these things so far.....
The similar scenario with mine is that for reasons unknown the former owner removed and discarded all the height stops from the quick change tool holders, thus rendering them into slow change tool holders - and he did that why??????
Also, he removed and discarded the "bridge" that retains (goes under the bed) for the 3 point steady and discarded that - why?????

We are talking 1980s lathes. 40 odd years is way longer than most technology goes without 3 or 4 or more generational changes in design.

There is an online sourcing site (bit like Alibaba) for Taiwan, see if you can find out its name and have a look in there for one of the original companies. IIRC a number of those names are mentioned in this thread or other threads about Taiwanese lathes, say some of the ones that the Yanks have that have been nameplated as Jet, Enco etc. At the end of the day, they all came from about 12 companies in Taiwan.
Mine is a Shenwai. I am told that it is very early as it does not have the step where the Norton head contacts the bed. But having said that, the latter stepped ones had the same tail stock to the best of my knowledge.
Hafco never sold mine either, despite their sticker being on it......
Ultimately, you need a tail stock with the same footprint ie., same bed cross section and with the same centre height. Other than those 2 criteria it can be any shape or design, it just has to fit.

Regards
Doug


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## Downunder Bob

It appears that Hafco not only has no clues about what they sell, they also have no idea who they sold it to. The bottom line is because they don't have any useful competition, they simply don't care.


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## dgrev

That seems to about sum it up.


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## Downunder Bob

Ron, how about putting up some detailed dimensions of the bed profile and height to centerline of your lathe, and we can cheque to see if ours will fit. Then you will know if you can order a new tailstock with the confidence that it will fit.


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## sixball

I would check with Grizzly. Some of their older lathes were the same as these. They still have some parts and the tail stock from some newer models may fit.


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## Downunder Bob

Ron, Give Modern Tools 03 9761 2929 Melbourne a call, they supply Taiwan machines such as my Liang Dei LD1216  Lathe. They may be able to match you up with a tail stock. I have found them very friendly and knowledgeable about their products.


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## rontlz

I work away and am back home this weekend so i will take some photos and measurements and post them up.
Thanks for the number Bob, i will give them a call when i get the measurements.
The previous owners are letting me have a look "under the house" this weekend too, maybe he threw it under there!
I got minimal tooling and accessories with mine, hopefully i find a big box of goodies in the great abyss..
Doug, how did you eventually identify the original manufacturer of your AL-900A?

Regards,

Ron


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## dgrev

Ron 

It was a long and involved process. I found a sticker on the back of the bed. In searching online for Taiwanese lathe companies I found a number of them and emailed all. Only one responded (after quite some time), he recognised the sticker and identified the company and what had happened to it. (closed down long ago).  But the email address I had for him no longer works as otherwise I would have given it to you. His company was a contemporary of Shengwai.


----------



## rontlz

Ok thanks Doug,
i will have a look all over the lathe and see if i can find any other identifying stickers apart from the one that "never sold them"

On a side note, do you think these AL-900's are bad for our health? we now know of 2 that have done away with their owner.

Ron


----------



## dgrev

Ron

I think it works like this, you get to your 50s and can now afford a lathe, that you never bought because you never had the money.
These lathes were 1980s, so add 30 to 40 years and it is no surprise to me that long term owners are falling off the perch.
With my lathe, the owner would have bought it sometime in the 1980s when he went contracting (self employed auto electrician), died a couple of years back, far as I know he was in his 60s. 

Given how good a quality they are and if reasonably looked after and not worked day in day out and thus heavily worn, then there are still good ones to be had.
Provided the owners haven't discarded essential parts!


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## rontlz

Hi all,
What a weekend!
Evacuated from home due to local bushfires, H-M website down and bonus missing parts!
Hope everyone is safe in the bushfire zones, we had no power, internet, land-line or mobile service for 24 hours.
But, i did still manage to explore "under the house" and found the missing tailstock and the fixed and travelling steadies which i had forgotten about.
I also found some tooling and an old micrometer set, so it was worth driving past the fire on the side of the highway at Bodalla.

Cheers,
Ron


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## dgrev

Ron
Excellent. I did think the tailstock shouldn't have wandered too far away unless something weird had happened. The steadies are a bonus for sure.
Regards
Doug


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## rontlz

Where is the best place to buy some way oil? Is hydraulic oil ok to use


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## dgrev

Ron. I use hydraulic for the ways and general rust prevention. Also use it in the Norton head. Regards Doug


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## Downunder Bob

Well done Ron, Lucky you for finding the missing tailstock and steady that you had forgotten. Now you can get to work on that new to you lathe, hope you have a lot of fun.


rontlz said:


> Where is the best place to buy some way oil? Is hydraulic oil ok to use


You might find way oil a bit hard to find, any oil is better than none, but I'd be inclined to use a straight SAE 30 grade oil without any additives. I'd also use that in the gearbox, although you might want to see if you can determine what is already in there, some oils don't mix that well.

I have since noticed in the copy of the owners manual they say use SAE 20 grade oils throughout. I suggested 30 because my lathe book says use 30 and that's what we used when I( was an apprentice. I also use chainsaw bar oil on the tumbler change gears because it doesn't throw off so easily.


----------



## rontlz

Hi all,
A bit of an update from me (NSW South coast),
Hope everyone is weathering the current **** storm we are currently facing,
i had a bit of a scare, helped my son mount a security camera at his workshop as there has been some looting
due to everyone packing up and staying home from the industrial area. He rang me the next day to tell me a lady
his wife works with has a confirmed case of covid-19. Department of health rang him and said his wife has to self
isolate in their house away from all other family members. They said he can still work so long as he obeys social
distancing rules! i thought that was pretty lax from the government and have put myself in isolation to make sure.

Anyway, the main reason for my post is that it is now time for me to lift my lathe up off the floor and on to its stands,
i have one of those engine lift cranes but i am unsure how to lift the lathe safely without damaging anything with chains etc.
i read that it weighs approx 300kg? i have two lengths of heavy chain and two heavy duty nylon tie down straps.
Any thoughts or suggestions on how to sling it, i am unsure how to stop the chains from slipping in at the bottom when i
lift from a central point at the top. Also do i need to space the chains out away from the 3 shafts running along the bed so
that the chain does not put any side pressure on them.
Thoughts, suggestions?

Regards,
Ron


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## dgrev

Hello Ron

The slings were way better an idea than the chains for me.
I would be pretty wary of lifting it with an engine crane those things
have a bad sense of balance.
Give that more thought.
As, like the rest of us, you now have unlimited spare time, I would set it up so that
as the lathe lifts, insert stable blocking every 1" or so or maybe 1/2".
Thus if the crane slips or does anything weird, the worst that happens is the
lathe drops a small amount.

Make sure you have an escape plan and sufficient clear area that if anything
goes wrong you can get clear. Trying to catch a 300kg lathe or having it
fall on you is not a survivable scenario.

In my case, I lifted my lathe from a strong back in my shed using a 1 tonne
chain block just enough that I could drive the trailer out from under it.
Then lowered onto 1" diameter lengths of water pipe and did the old Egyptian
trick of slowly moving it, grabbing each pipe as it came out from
under the lathe and putting it at the front.
It takes some force to get it to roll and just as much force to get it to stop
rolling!
Slowly slowly catchy monkey.

It also takes multiple broom sweepings and then vacuuming before the shed floor
is actually clean enough to get an acceptable smooth surface.

I had no problem with the slings moving in, as both were routed around
"webs" cast into the bed, one near where the tailstock lives the other
close to the headstock. So the lift was internally on the bed, not externally.
I left the cabinet attached to the lathe to provide a
counter balance to the lift.
Carriage down at the tailstock end to counter balance the headstock.
Tailstock and carriage both locked down tight and re-checked till OCD
was satisfied.

I found that the lathe was "squirrely" when I took the weight with the
chain block. I  only lifted till it was 1/2" clear of the trailer bed, having it move
around and find its happy position in the trailer 
The top heavy nature of the headstock is a major concern and complication
to a safe lift, as is also the "squirrely" behaviour of the lathe, which is why
I don't like your engine crane.

Ratchet straps are NOT lifting slings. Lifting slings are not expensive,
buy some. Be aware that it is easy to buy short ones only to then realise
they should have been longer. Plot your hook point and using say some
rope measure the actual length of sling you will need. You may get
a surprise how deceptive your initial guess was.

You says "stands" rather than "stand". How about some photos of your
lathe, one down from above showing the bed and if there are any webs
in it.
Also some photos of the stands.
Your situation may require a very different solution than mine did.

Please be careful.

Don't be afraid to make a "no go" decision if you are not confident
about safely making the lift.


----------



## NortonDommi

Many threads on lifting lathes around here.  I have a Hafco AL356 and I have now found out it has holes in the base for bars to go through for slings/chains.
  I went for a simple lifting plate under the ways. Locked the tailstock at the end of the bed, wound the apron about 3/4 of the way down and started lift, adjusted apron for balance.
  Lathe weighs 650 kg dry and I can lift easily and safely wet with a full tank of coolant.  single lift point.
  You can run the sling/chain through the webs for location. Yes, stay well clear of the leadscrew etc.
  Yours not being on stand I'd use a sling around back of chuck and another through the ways and around the ways at the tailstock end.  Lock the tailstock at the end of the bed and wind the apron to adjust balance. Use a lifting bar.  D-shackles are handy to lock things in place as is whipping with a bit of light rope.


----------



## pdentrem

We used a lifting plate as well on the Jet DBD1340. Had no issues with balance. 
Pierre


----------



## Downunder Bob

Careful thought and planning usually will avoid any tears after the event. Once The lift starts to go pear shaped, it's too late to fix. If in doubt, don't.. A lathe is a very top heavy machine so care must be taken to avoid it tipping, once it starts you won't stop it. Moving the saddle and tail stock to the tailend will help with longitudinal balance.

Front to back balance is another problem, if slinging from under the bed, place blocks of wood above and below the feed shaft and lead screw so that the blocks take the load not the shafts. Also placing a shorter sling around the chuck to counter any desire to tip. Its not taking a lot of weight, just preventing it slipping over. I considered mounting a length of stout pipe from chuck to tailstock with another short sling to aid stability but in the end we didn't do it. It was enough as it was.

When I lifted my 12x16 about 360Kg. I hired a dingo machine with fork blades and a lifting hook. So I was able to get the blades under the machine at both ends, and a sling from the bed to the hook for added stability. I had a mate who had a riggers ticket from some years earlier, and although it was out of date, he still knew what he was doing.

We first lifted the lathe from the trailer onto the floor, it was still in shipping crate, so we uncrated it, then lifted it onto the two piece stand. bolting into place.

Finally lifting it onto a rigid steel base frame, that had been previously made. The whole thing was now too heavy for the dingo to lift, 500KG max., so the frame, lathe and stand were then pushed into position up against the back wall of garage. Jacking screws were used to level up the base frame. Then the lathe was secured to the base frame with hold down bolts and jacking screws, until level.

After cleaning and lubing the lathe was checked with test cuts and final adjustments made, it was pretty close anyway, only needed a tweak on the hold down bolts and jacking screws.

Job done, Dingo returned to hire shop, we returned home for well earned beer or three. Unfortunately no pictures I was unaware of the picture rule.

take care,

Downunder Bob


----------



## rontlz

Thanks everyone for your input and suggestions, much appreciated.
I noted your point about the tie downs not being lifting slings and did not use those, i will look into getting some.
My lathe does not have any lifting holes in the bed and i looked at placing a plate under the bed but i was not happy with that.
I needed to move it away from the wall a bit to clean at the back a little more so i had a go with the chains.
I had some large C channel that fitted over the lead screws perfectly and held the chain out so i cut it in half so i had 2.
I fiddled and adjusted the chains until i was happy that they sat where i wanted them and i ran a stabilising chain around
the chuck back to my lifting point as well. I slowly took the weight up with the crane and it was a bit lower at the tailstock end
so i moved the apron towards the headstock until it levelled out. i had it about 15mm off the ground and moved it to the centre
of my floorspace and lowered it back down. It seemed stable and didnt try to tip when i moved it about with the crane.
My stands are two seperate pedestals with cabinets built in and have a large splash tray that ties them together at the back.
i have cleaned and painted them and the chip tray that sits under the lathe. When i am finished cleaning the lathe i will have
a go at lifting it up on to them, making sure i have a clear path and plan for a speedy getaway if needed.
when i have it on the stands, where is the best place to adjust / shim it to make it level? how accurate should it be.

Ron

P.S. Doug, i am pretty sure my lathe is identical to yours.


----------



## Downunder Bob

G'day Ron, first of all welcome to the group. 

Glad to see that you got the move done without any dramas. 

If you are going to need to move your machine out away from the wall on a regular basis, making up a set of machine skates might be  a good idea. I'm halfway through making a set for my self. I'll be writing it up with pictures when I get back to it.


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## rontlz

Hello everyone again, I was wondering if anyone here has MT5 taper they could measure for me.
I am getting a MT5 arbor made up to go in to my lathe spindle and the inside of the spindle has a
lip 90mm in from the front edge. I looked up the size of the large diameter end which is 1.7480"
I would like the diameter 85mm from the large end if possible please.

Ron


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## NortonDommi

G'day Ron,
                  Standard tapers in Imperial and Morse tapers in Metrickery.  It should be possible to work out exactly what you need from these.
 Often on the larger tapers contact is only in two bands with the centre portion of the female socket relieved.  The male taper is one unbroken surface.


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