# inverted v templates



## expressline99

I'm reading the Connelly book and currently reading about templates frequently used and made. Are v templates (male and female) available? I assume made similar to v blocks but with different angles? If so what are they called in current terms? I can't seem to locate any using "v templates"  Since this are used to ensure there isn't tilt occurring from uneven wear and there are 2 on my Logan bed... I thought I would look into it. Ideas suggestions? 


Paul


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## 4GSR

The vee templates Connelly talks about are all ways special made to each machine tool manufactures needs.  Most machine tool manufactures in the days made their own.  They poured the castings in their own foundry, seasoned the castings, machined them, stress relieved them, finish machined them, last scraped them straight.
I have a couple of dovetail templates made by a long gone lathe manufacture I got ahold of many years ago. vee templates and or straight edges were not common.  You pretty much have to make your own. These templates were only made about 12" to 24" long.  They were not made the length of a lathe bed.  They were only made to control the form of the vee so they would be consistent from machine to machine.


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## Bob Korves

Hi Paul.  The V ways of machines need to fit each other when new, and are machined to fit, and sometimes scraped to match.  Specific angles are called for, a manufacturing neceessity.  In reconditioning a machine, specific angles matter not at all, the mating parts just need to fit each other.  If the dovetail is nominally 55 degrees, and we scrape both surfaces in at 55.437 degrees to match, nothing is lost, so long as the geometry of the total machine is correct and the mating surfaces match each other with full bearing.


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## expressline99

Thanks, Ken



Bob Korves said:


> Hi Paul.  The V ways of machines need to fit each other when new, and are machined to fit, and sometimes scraped to match.  Specific angles are called for, a manufacturing necessity.  In reconditioning a machine, specific angles matter not at all, the mating parts just need to fit each other.  If the dovetail is nominally 55 degrees, and we scrape both surfaces in at 55.437 degrees to match, nothing is lost, so long as the geometry of the total machine is correct and the mating surfaces match each other with full bearing.



Hi Bob, the angles make total sense said that way. ..I keep reading and trying to understand it. It's still difficult for me to visualize how to measure the parallelism, tilt, square...etc etc.
Where to reference from is my main issue on the lathe. I'm starting to get how it would work on a mill. However, working  compound down on a lathe still mixes me up.  I really need a lesson on Metrology. 

Paul


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## 4GSR

Paul,

Trying to establish reference planes to work from are not that difficult to do in your case with your Logan lathe bed. Most all surfaces are machined/planed in the same setup when done.  If you are trying to determine how much wear you have the bed ways, you have to work off the unworn surfaces of the bed.  These surfaces are usually the sides of the  bed, and the surfaces between the vee's and flats.  From these surfaces and the use of fixturing that rides on these unworn surfaces, you can measure, with dial indicators, the wear on the vee's and flats normally used for the saddle/carriage and tailstock.  The only other way to measure this is to put the bed up on a planer or surface grinder or large CNC mill and measure.  Now, for making the vee's and flats, flat and straight again.  You either re-machine these surfaces on a machine capable of doing so or using a straight edge of known straightness, scrap and make flat again.  
One thing to remember, when you re-scrap or machine the ways, the saddle has to be re-fitted to the bed ways.  And depending how much material is removed, may have an effect on the lead screw alignment with the carriage, too.


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## expressline99

4gsr said:


> Paul,
> 
> Trying to establish reference planes to work from are not that difficult to do in your case with your Logan lathe bed. Most all surfaces are machined/planed in the same setup when done.  If you are trying to determine how much wear you have the bed ways, you have to work off the unworn surfaces of the bed.  These surfaces are usually the sides of the  bed, and the surfaces between the vee's and flats.  From these surfaces and the use of fixturing that rides on these unworn surfaces, you can measure, with dial indicators, the wear on the vee's and flats normally used for the saddle/carriage and tailstock.  The only other way to measure this is to put the bed up on a planer or surface grinder or large CNC mill and measure.  Now, for making the vee's and flats, flat and straight again.  You either re-machine these surfaces on a machine capable of doing so or using a straight edge of known straightness, scrap and make flat again.
> One thing to remember, when you re-scrap or machine the ways, the saddle has to be re-fitted to the bed ways.  And depending how much material is removed, may have an effect on the lead screw alignment with the carriage, too.



I went out and took a look at this on the lathe. I can see now there are 2 machined surfaces on each side of the ways that can be used. Those sides jumped right out at me this time. Seemed to me any machined edge would have been a bearing spot. I think that's why it never occurred to me. Simple when looking at it now. Both inner and outer flats have zero contact with any sliding member. But they need some non-abrasive cleaning as there is over spray from painting and various material stuck to them.

Paul


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## Bob Korves

Most machinery has reference surfaces built in, and often it is intentional.  You are not the first one who needed to measure their lathe for wear, not by a long shot.  At least you have some input on how to do it correctly.  If you want to make some templates to check out the V-ways, you will need to make them to fit the ways as they originally would have been when new.  There is usually negligible wear at the tailstock end of the bed, and also very close to the headstock to use as patterns.  On some lathes, extended ways support the headstock in the correct position, and those surfaces should stay pristine, but require removing the headstock to get to them, not exactly a trivial task...  The ways near the tailstock end are usually adequate for the purpose.  The templates need to fit the factory ways, not your worn ones, and also need to have reference surfaces, typically the flat tops or the bars,  that are parallel to the V-ways and also the same distance from the V-ways.  I think I remember Connelly covering making templates pretty well in the book, except he made it sound easy, and it no doubt was for him.  I really recommend that you read that entire book, cover to cover, and get some serious scraping practice and training, before attempting any portion of a reconditioning to your lathe.  There are many nuances that can and will influence the final results as well as the overall difficulty of the project.  Make sure you pretty much understand the entire project and the work flow sequence before starting any part of the job.  If you start with fitting the wrong parts in the wrong way, you can end up with major metal removal required further down the line, or starting over at the beginning...  BYW, I am by no means any kind of expert at this, far from it, but I have read and studied it pretty well, and do have some limited experience with scraping and with adjusting the fits of machine members.


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## 4GSR

Paul,

Here is a fixture I made to check the alignment of my Lodge & Shipley lathe I used to have.  If you notice, the rollers, in my case ball bearings, rode on the top of the ways.  On this lathe, the top of the ways and the side of the ways is what I located off of.  They had no detectable wear.

I also used this fixture to regrind the ways with.  And by no means I encourage anyone to use this method to recondition the ways with.  I done it just to prove it can be done and I knew what I was doing, too!


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## Bob Korves

I should have made it clear in my post above that the templates I was describing would not just be for checking the ways for wear, but also for critically checking the ways as work proceeds during reconditioning.  The templates would need to be joined together solidly into a single fixture for measuring both ways at once, to make sure the V's are the correct distance apart and vertically parallel as well, while forming the correct shapes and heights.  Simpler templates can be used for just checking wear.


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## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Most machinery has reference surfaces built in, and often it is intentional.  You are not the first one who needed to measure their lathe for wear, not by a long shot.  At least you have some input on how to do it correctly.  If you want to make some templates to check out the V-ways, you will need to make them to fit the ways as they originally would have been when new.  There is usually negligible wear at the tailstock end of the bed, and also very close to the headstock to use as patterns.  On some lathes, extended ways support the headstock in the correct position, and those surfaces should stay pristine, but require removing the headstock to get to them, not exactly a trivial task...  The ways near the tailstock end are usually adequate for the purpose.  The templates need to fit the factory ways, not your worn ones, and also need to have reference surfaces, typically the flat tops or the bars,  that are parallel to the V-ways and also the same distance from the V-ways.  I think I remember Connelly covering making templates pretty well in the book, except he made it sound easy, and it no doubt was for him.  I really recommend that you read that entire book, cover to cover, and get some serious scraping practice and training, before attempting any portion of a reconditioning to your lathe.  There are many nuances that can and will influence the final results as well as the overall difficulty of the project.  Make sure you pretty much understand the entire project and the work flow sequence before starting any part of the job.  If you start with fitting the wrong parts in the wrong way, you can end up with major metal removal required further down the line, or starting over at the beginning...  BYW, I am by no means any kind of expert at this, far from it, but I have read and studied it pretty well, and do have some limited experience with scraping and with adjusting the fits of machine members.



I don't anticipating starting work until I am done reading it and have more practice with you and the guys first. My mind spins in a lot of directions. So all my questions are advance research. As well, I won't practice on my lathe. I think I will buy extra parts for it to practice on. Maybe an extra compound and extra cross slide that would fit?


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## Rustrp

I'm getting a visual on the direction you are going here and what I'm proposing is to only get you close in seeing how much work you need to do. This is only a ballpark or basic start, and maybe you don't need to do as much as you think.

I get lots of folks walking through the door with products to bend and I need to determine the angle(s). If it's bent then it has a radius and if it's rollformed it usually has even more radius. An example might be a roof flashing for a penetration through a metal building roof panel. There are usually some constants here, like center-center of the ribs, height of the ribs etc and I have to take into account any stretch or distortion. My reference here are ribs that are truncated cones, or in your case, the Vee's. With that said; I begin with getting an approximate angle using the flat of the panel up the side of the rib. I take the centers of the ribs, the base dimension of the ribs, the flat (truncated) across the top and with a little math determine what the angles are, what the stretchout of the flat piece should be (hopefully). 

Now to your project; After the preliminary task of getting close, I shear, notch, and spotweld a template that fits the panel shape before I shear and bend the real thing. I think you can see an end view of a one piece template that fits the bed as Bob explained, and if you need any help with coming up with a template just PM me. Many times I take strips of metal (16 ga.) and vicegrip them together as I work through the angles, by placing the pieces against the shape I'm measuring or attempting to determine an angle. If you get a good fit across the unworn section of the bed, then you will see the daylight on the worn sections. 

As I stated, this is to give you an idea of what's on the road ahead, before you go to Bob's #9 post. Okay, and I see I missed Ken's attachment for the fixture, and in essence that's my idea but at a basic level to start.


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## expressline99

Rustrp said:


> I'm getting a visual on the direction you are going here and what I'm proposing is to only get you close in seeing how much work you need to do. This is only a ballpark or basic start, and maybe you don't need to do as much as you think.
> 
> I get lots of folks walking through the door with products to bend and I need to determine the angle(s). If it's bent then it has a radius and if it's rollformed it usually has even more radius. An example might be a roof flashing for a penetration through a metal building roof panel. There are usually some constants here, like center-center of the ribs, height of the ribs etc and I have to take into account any stretch or distortion. My reference here are ribs that are truncated cones, or in your case, the Vee's. With that said; I begin with getting an approximate angle using the flat of the panel up the side of the rib. I take the centers of the ribs, the base dimension of the ribs, the flat (truncated) across the top and with a little math determine what the angles are, what the stretchout of the flat piece should be (hopefully).
> 
> Now to your project; After the preliminary task of getting close, I shear, notch, and spotweld a template that fits the panel shape before I shear and bend the real thing. I think you can see an end view of a one piece template that fits the bed as Bob explained, and if you need any help with coming up with a template just PM me. Many times I take strips of metal (16 ga.) and vicegrip them together as I work through the angles, by placing the pieces against the shape I'm measuring or attempting to determine an angle. If you get a good fit across the unworn section of the bed, then you will see the daylight on the worn sections.
> 
> As I stated, this is to give you an idea of what's on the road ahead, before you go to Bob's #9 post. Okay, and I see I missed Ken's attachment for the fixture, and in essence that's my idea but at a basic level to start.



I've got a lot of thought to figure this all out. All three of you are so far out ahead of my comprehension.  But the roof ribs and flashing make sense to me. 

So in order to get the correct dimensions am I to measure the vee's bottom and top. This being at the tail stock end where the wear should be almost non-existent?
What I don't understand is that the beds on these were supposed to be hand scraped. I can't seen any scraping marks. Not one. 

I really have to look at Ken's drawing again. I don't quite understand how to get a reference from a rolling jig if the non-bearing machined surfaces are on the vertical sides?  Assuming the machine is working position horizontally and correctly leveled. Wouldn't a rolling jig like that end up riding on the bearing surfaces and throw off the measurements of wear?  I'm guessing my thought process isn't complete due to lack of experience.


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## Bob Korves

I do not think sheet metal shapes would do a very good job of mapping the wear on a lathe bed that is measured in thousandths.  But, Russ is a pro, and I could be wrong.  Ken's setup was an experiment designed for grinding a lathe bed with a normally handheld grinder mounted to a trolley, which was also used to map the existing wear and the progress. 

Bed ways become swaybacked typically from use, with most work done near the chuck and therefore more wear in that area where the saddle typically moves back and forth a lot.  The ways also wear sideways from side loading from tool to work loading.  Before we start removing metal, we need a map of where things are at the start so we can make plans to remove the minimum amount of metal to get the desired results.  We also need to test the progress of the work as it progresses, and finally we need to be able to know when we have accomplished the repairs to within the required tolerances.  We make jigs and templates to assist with those measurements, which cannot be done with a ruler or other simple everyday tools.

In earlier times, lathes were expected to be hand scraped, that made them "professional", like the big guys used.  Of course, expecting a scraping job on a $300 lathe was ridiculous, even in those days, so they just put some random scraping marks on it after it was planed, milled, ground, or otherwise manufactured using machine tools.  It was scraping, and it was done by hand, so the lathe was advertised as "Hand Scraped" in the promotional material.  A lot of machines are "reconditioned" today by people with scrapers who make them look nice and pretty.  They also put a nice coat of paint on the machine.  It is still a worn out POS...  Of course, some of the best machinery in the world is also finished by scraping, carefully and to very tight tolerances.  A "reconditioned" $2000 Bridgeport series 1 is not one of the great ones...  Caveat Emptor!

Edit:  People who have the skills to do that work also have the skills to know the difference between fine work and a con job...


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## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> I do not think sheet metal shapes would do a very good job of mapping the wear on a lathe bed that is measured in thousandths.  But, Russ is a pro, and I could be wrong.  Ken's setup was an experiment designed for grinding a lathe bed with a normally handheld grinder mounted to a trolley, which was also used to map the existing wear and the progress.
> 
> Bed ways become swaybacked typically from use, with most work done near the chuck and therefore more wear in that area where the saddle typically moves back and forth a lot.  The ways also wear sideways from side loading from tool to work loading.  Before we start removing metal, we need a map of where things are at the start so we can make plans to remove the minimum amount of metal to get the desired results.  We also need to test the progress of the work as it progresses, and finally we need to be able to know when we have accomplished the repairs to within the required tolerances.  We make jigs and templates to assist with those measurements, which cannot be done with a ruler or other simple everyday tools.
> 
> In earlier times, lathes were expected to be hand scraped, that made them "professional", like the big guys used.  Of course, expecting a scraping job on a $300 lathe was ridiculous, even in those days, so they just put some random scraping marks on it after it was planed, milled, ground, or otherwise manufactured using machine tools.  It was scraping, and it was done by hand, so the lathe was advertised as "Hand Scraped" in the promotional material.  A lot of machines are "reconditioned" today by people with scrapers who make them look nice and pretty.  They also put a nice coat of paint on the machine.  It is still a worn out POS...  Of course, some of the best machinery in the world is also finished by scraping, carefully and to very tight tolerances.  A "reconditioned" $2000 Bridgeport series 1 is not one of the great ones...  Caveat Emptor!
> 
> Edit:  People who have the skills to do that work also have the skills to know the difference between fine work and a con job...



OK a grinding trolley makes more sense to me now. Also, looking at it again I see it rides on the center flat of the vees.

They were $300 lathes you got a point there. So more likely it was some flaking at best?  I did read that in a promo I found so you got me there.  I can say my "rebuilt" Bridgeport should be awesome when I'm done. But I know exactly what you mean.  Probably won't ever sell that once I get it done.

I could start bringing parts over for "us" to work on?   (No pressure...please help me.) lol

Here are some pictures of the Logan bed to firm up what profiles I'm looking at here.












Logan 200 Bed End Profile



__ expressline99
__ Jun 5, 2017


















Logan 200 Bed Side view



__ expressline99
__ Jun 5, 2017


















Logan 200 Bed Side view Head Stock End



__ expressline99
__ Jun 5, 2017






Paul


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## tertiaryjim

The saddle on my Jet lathe was so poorly fit that the inboard side was 14 thousanths above the way unless a heavy load, like a deep cut, was placed on it.
I could bump it with a small dead blow and hear it smack the way.
The feed and threading rods actually lifted the OB so when  machining it could pivot on the V-way and get some contact on the IB flat way.
Except the way wipers were so stiff and ill fitted that the saddle road on them...........
Then there's the problem that the saddle had no true reference points to measure from. Everything was convex and/or out of square to the ways and the dovetails which 
were so bad I didn't even keep a record......
Very poor finish quality and loved to chatter.

The point is that everything has to be checked and understood before starting such a project. Everything!
I also found the tools I had weren't very good " actually they were crap" for getting into the V-way to scrape it.
Got it done and properly aligned after multiple tries.  I think!
At least its solid and finishes are greatly improved plus other problems I listed are corrected.
It's amazing how the V-way can support an off-sided load and I had to role or re-align the saddles V to get the IB side to ride on  the flat way and give me a square 
or very, very slight concave face.
Had the lathe not been really crappy I wouldn't have attempted such a project with the limited " almost none" experience I had.
Wish I'd had the opportunity to start small and work up.

Now I know that I'm not ready to try a lathe bed.


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> OK a grinding trolley makes more sense to me now. Also, looking at it again I see it rides on the center flat of the vees.
> 
> They were $300 lathes you got a point there. So more likely it was some flaking at best?  I did read that in a promo I found so you got me there.  I can say my "rebuilt" Bridgeport should be awesome when I'm done. But I know exactly what you mean.  Probably won't ever sell that once I get it done.
> 
> I could start bringing parts over for "us" to work on?   (No pressure...please help me.) lol
> 
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> Paul


Paul, your lathe bed does not show much wear visually in the photos, though the pics are not taken in the usual most suspect areas.  You are not looking for wear at the sides of the bed, you are looking for it on the V's and the sliding flat ways themselves.  The saddle contact on the V prisms does not normally extend to the bottom of the V.  If there is heavy wear, you will normally see a step on the angled surfaces between where the saddle slides and where it does not slide.  You can also feel it with a fingernail.  It is usually worst about 12-18 inches from the headstock.  Same for where the tailstock slides.  It does not slide on the full width of the way, so you can see the wear versus the unworn areas.  The tailstock wear will be farther to the right end on the ways than the carriage wear is, due to how they work together.  The unworn areas are reference surfaces, as are all the unworn surfaces that were machined in the same setup when the bed was originally manufactured.


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## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Paul, your lathe bed does not show much wear visually in the photos, though the pics are not taken in the usual most suspect areas.  You are not looking for wear at the sides of the bed, you are looking for it on the V's and the sliding flat ways themselves.  The saddle contact on the V prisms does not normally extend to the bottom of the V.  If there is heavy wear, you will normally see a step on the angled surfaces between where the saddle slides and where it does not slide.  You can also feel it with a fingernail.  It is usually worst about 12-18 inches from the headstock.  Same for where the tailstock slides.  It does not slide on the full width of the way, so you can see the wear versus the unworn areas.  The tailstock wear will be farther to the right end on the ways than the carriage wear is, due to how they work together.  The unworn areas are reference surfaces, as are all the unworn surfaces that were machined in the same setup when the bed was originally manufactured.



Oh I wasn't trying to show wear. I will take those pictures later today. These pictures were to show where my reference points are and just general overview of where I would somehow have to measure from.  I can tell there is considerable wear by messing with the carriage lock. If not loosened enough the carriage will quickly start to drag as you get away from the worn areas on the bed. Not really a very good test. But it's evident when using it. 

One other issue I have is that the compound has enough slack in the vees to twist it by hand. This can be seen visually and heard to click as you do this. It has new gibs and I'm sure that could be tightened. But doing so limits the travel too much. Of course not tightened leaves it to have a lot of chatter. 

But before anything can happen with the bed I need to figure out the replacement chip pan and get the legs done. Then properly level and wait and level again. I understand the extreme importance of leveling now. Can't be done until those parts are replaced.


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> So more likely it was some flaking at best?


Flaking and scraping are quite different things.  Flaking is deeper cutting done for oil retention pockets (and decoration.)  It is also often mistaken for scraping,  Flaking is also used to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.  The scraping done on the old Logan and SB lathes, when you see it unworn and pristine, is done by a scraper with very little nose radius, making flat cuts that cover a wider area than usual, and with areas between the marks that are not scraped at all.  I suppose someone might say that is to "final fit" the lathe, or to add oil pockets, but I call it decoration.  The lathes I am talking about here are typically smaller ones, built to a price point, often from the 1930's, 40's, and '50's.  Earlier lathes were planed and then completely scraped in, later ones did not bother with 'scraping' at all, left them shiny.


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## Rustrp

Bob Korves said:


> I do not think sheet metal shapes would do a very good job of mapping the wear on a lathe bed that is measured in thousandths. But, Russ is a pro, and I could be wrong. Ken's setup was an experiment designed for grinding a lathe bed with a normally handheld grinder mounted to a trolley, which was also used to map the existing wear and the progress.



My sheet metal proposal was intended as the first step as a visual inspection tool to see how much wear may be on the ways. I agree, the bed looks good from the photos Paul posted so my template was also a prevention tool; Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.  

I think we agree that some things can be made worse by trying to get it as perfect or accurate as possible when there's no real point or value. e.g. On my 100 year old Lodge & Shipley I do a basic check on the ways for wear. I chuck up a piece of 1/2" drill rod with a drill check in the tailstock. I set up a dial indicator and run the carriage end to end. I get about .005" low spot where wear would be expected. I loosen the drill chuck, turn the rod 90° and do the same thing, with the same results +/-. My first thought was; I must be doing something wrong, there should be more wear for a machine this old. I think I'll leave it because I'm not sure I can get a cutting tool more accurate and a .005" drop on the centerline isn't a deal breaker on this machine.


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## expressline99

tertiaryjim said:


> The saddle on my Jet lathe was so poorly fit that the inboard side was 14 thousanths above the way unless a heavy load, like a deep cut, was placed on it.
> I could bump it with a small dead blow and hear it smack the way.
> The feed and threading rods actually lifted the OB so when  machining it could pivot on the V-way and get some contact on the IB flat way.
> Except the way wipers were so stiff and ill fitted that the saddle road on them...........
> Then there's the problem that the saddle had no true reference points to measure from. Everything was convex and/or out of square to the ways and the dovetails which
> were so bad I didn't even keep a record......
> Very poor finish quality and loved to chatter.
> 
> The point is that everything has to be checked and understood before starting such a project. Everything!
> I also found the tools I had weren't very good " actually they were crap" for getting into the V-way to scrape it.
> Got it done and properly aligned after multiple tries.  I think!
> At least its solid and finishes are greatly improved plus other problems I listed are corrected.
> It's amazing how the V-way can support an off-sided load and I had to role or re-align the saddles V to get the IB side to ride on  the flat way and give me a square
> or very, very slight concave face.
> Had the lathe not been really crappy I wouldn't have attempted such a project with the limited " almost none" experience I had.
> Wish I'd had the opportunity to start small and work up.
> 
> Now I know that I'm not ready to try a lathe bed.



Was the Jet lathe new? Or 2nd owner? Thanks for taking the time to explain your convex issues. First time I've read about someone with 1st hand experience with that.
Just wondering but were your scraping tools made at home or ebay brands? 

So you only scraped the the saddle's Vees? So the bed is still convex or perhaps twisted?
Paul


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## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Flaking and scraping are quite different things.  Flaking is deeper cutting done for oil retention pockets (and decoration.)  It is also often mistaken for scraping,  Flaking is also used to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.  The scraping done on the old Logan and SB lathes, when you see it unworn and pristine, is done by a scraper with very little nose radius, making flat cuts that cover a wider area than usual, and with areas between the marks that are not scraped at all.  I suppose someone might say that is to "final fit" the lathe, or to add oil pockets, but I call it decoration.  The lathes I am talking about here are typically smaller ones, built to a price point, often from the 1930's, 40's, and '50's.  Earlier lathes were planed and then completely scraped in, later ones did not bother with 'scraping' at all, left them shiny.



Bob I love the examples of poor quality restorations you give. "sow's ear" that's great.


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## expressline99

Rustrp said:


> My sheet metal proposal was intended as the first step as a visual inspection tool to see how much wear may be on the ways. I agree, the bed looks good from the photos Paul posted so my template was also a prevention tool; Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.
> 
> I think we agree that some things can be made worse by trying to get it as perfect or accurate as possible when there's no real point or value. e.g. On my 100 year old Lodge & Shipley I do a basic check on the ways for wear. I chuck up a piece of 1/2" drill rod with a drill check in the tailstock. I set up a dial indicator and run the carriage end to end. I get about .005" low spot where wear would be expected. I loosen the drill chuck, turn the rod 90° and do the same thing, with the same results +/-. My first thought was; I must be doing something wrong, there should be more wear for a machine this old. I think I'll leave it because I'm not sure I can get a cutting tool more accurate and a .005" drop on the centerline isn't a deal breaker on this machine.



Great idea for a simple test. I'll get some ground rod to try. I would be very surprised if mine was only out .005  and I for sure wouldn't go through this mess if it was.


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## Bob Korves

Paul, the ways the carriage rides on can have a lot of wear on them which will not not cause as much inaccuracy as you might imagine.  Think about the tool against the work.  The contact area is vertical where the tool it touching the center of the work.  If the tool falls as it slides along the work, let's say it falls .020", the amount of metal cut changes much less than that, depending on the work diameter.  On a larger diameter piece, the difference is negligible.  Tailstock wear usually makes the center lower where it contacts the work, and that can cause a taper to be turned, but again, the depth of cut does not change as much as the tailstock center is low, it is much less.  The tailstock can be shimmed to be a little high on the unworn portions of the ways, and a little low on the worn portions, and the work will show little variance along the cut.  It can also be offset sideways to help the cause.  The same sort of workarounds can be used with the carriage ways.  Start with the tool a bit high on the unworn areas, letting it go a bit low on the unworn areas, and much of the diameter discrepancy goes away.  LOTS of good work is done on worn out lathes.  It is not ideal, but it gets the jobs done.  A good machinist can do better work on a worn out lathe he is familiar with than a novice can do on a perfect machine.  Food for thought.  I recommend you do not be in a hurry to recondition the machine, and in more of a mode to LEARN the machine.  Small steps...


----------



## tertiaryjim

expressline99
The machine was second hand and the first owner had no clue.
I found minor bed twist but spent some time to get it straight using Starrett 98 levels.
The lathe came from the factory as a reject mess.
A friend had given me a small surface plate that he got from his company for free as it had been dropped.
It wasn't very flat anymore but was good enough to use for scraping the compound which actually  "rocked"
when placed on the plate.
The slide was scraped using a piece of cutoff tool and then used as a master to check the lower compound half and dovetails.
Speaking of dovetails, I had to machine and scrape a 60deg straight edge for those.
This is where I had to machine my first Gib key. That's an experience. 
Keeping it reasonably true is difficult to impossible as the first cuts tend to make the thin material curve like a banana. 
It's been a huge learning experience but after a whole lot of time and work, probably 10-20 times the work as I was learning from scratch 
and made so many mistakes. Still do.
Later scraped the cross slide then the saddle as well as the bottom of the headstock and the rails it bolts to.

So a big question you have to ask is how much are you willing to spend on tooling and materials. It can be done fairly cheaply
financially if you find the right bargains and make your own tools but will be expensive in time and effort.
In my case everything I have is either cheap, broken, or worn out so someone has to do the work and I will use the tools on the next machine.
Even with all the time spent and frustration, most of which was self inflicted, it has often been very satisfying.
For practice I later got some angle plates during encos big sales w free shipping.
Scraping them flat and square also left me with useful tools and I can use the surfaces to practice flaking.
I'm still a amateur and there are many people on site who can give better advice but you can learn some from my mistakes.


----------



## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Paul, the ways the carriage rides on can have a lot of wear on them which will not not cause as much inaccuracy as you might imagine.  Think about the tool against the work.  The contact area is vertical where the tool it touching the center of the work.  If the tool falls as it slides along the work, let's say it falls .020", the amount of metal cut changes much less than that, depending on the work diameter.  On a larger diameter piece, the difference is negligible.  Tailstock wear usually makes the center lower where it contacts the work, and that can cause a taper to be turned, but again, the depth of cut does not change as much as the tailstock center is low, it is much less.  The tailstock can be shimmed to be a little high on the unworn portions of the ways, and a little low on the worn portions, and the work will show little variance along the cut.  It can also be offset sideways to help the cause.  The same sort of workarounds can be used with the carriage ways.  Start with the tool a bit high on the unworn areas, letting it go a bit low on the unworn areas, and much of the diameter discrepancy goes away.  LOTS of good work is done on worn out lathes.  It is not ideal, but it gets the jobs done.  A good machinist can do better work on a worn out lathe he is familiar with than a novice can do on a perfect machine.  Food for thought.  I recommend you do not be in a hurry to recondition the machine, and in more of a mode to LEARN the machine.  Small steps...



It's all a lot to think about. Would it be horrible if I fixed the compound so that there isn't any slop...for the full travel? You guys gotta "enable" me a little bit. Can I buy a compound and scrape that in?  I want a surface plate...(that's flat.) That way if I ruin the extra compound it won't matter.  I would hope that could be classified as a small step?  So we could spin this topic towards the compound and perhaps you guys can help me approach that. I have enthusiasm for miles. Even for learning the machine.    

I should at least get this thing measured once leveled etc on the new legs. 

Paul


----------



## expressline99

tertiaryjim said:


> expressline99
> The machine was second hand and the first owner had no clue.
> I found minor bed twist but spent some time to get it straight using Starrett 98 levels.
> The lathe came from the factory as a reject mess.
> A friend had given me a small surface plate that he got from his company for free as it had been dropped.
> It wasn't very flat anymore but was good enough to use for scraping the compound which actually  "rocked"
> when placed on the plate.
> The slide was scraped using a piece of cutoff tool and then used as a master to check the lower compound half and dovetails.
> Speaking of dovetails, I had to machine and scrape a 60deg straight edge for those.
> This is where I had to machine my first Gib key. That's an experience.
> Keeping it reasonably true is difficult to impossible as the first cuts tend to make the thin material curve like a banana.
> It's been a huge learning experience but after a whole lot of time and work, probably 10-20 times the work as I was learning from scratch
> and made so many mistakes. Still do.
> Later scraped the cross slide then the saddle as well as the bottom of the headstock and the rails it bolts to.
> 
> So a big question you have to ask is how much are you willing to spend on tooling and materials. It can be done fairly cheaply
> financially if you find the right bargains and make your own tools but will be expensive in time and effort.
> In my case everything I have is either cheap, broken, or worn out so someone has to do the work and I will use the tools on the next machine.
> Even with all the time spent and frustration, most of which was self inflicted, it has often been very satisfying.
> For practice I later got some angle plates during encos big sales w free shipping.
> Scraping them flat and square also left me with useful tools and I can use the surfaces to practice flaking.
> I'm still a amateur and there are many people on site who can give better advice but you can learn some from my mistakes.



You've done a lot there I haven't made it to yet!  I don't mind buying tools in fact I really enjoy it!  For me I need distraction. My mind runs in 1000 directions at once. 
So getting something specific enough to concentrate on is difficult at best. Lately time urgency is pressing on me. Keep getting the idea it might be over soon...Anyway let's hope not!

The plan is to make my own 30 degree straight edge if possible. Making a clamp type scraper like Bob showed me in his shop is on my list also. But I think I'm starting to get reeled in by the guys. Probably best!

Paul


----------



## tertiaryjim

I got a 2' X 3' plate prior to scraping the cross slide and also used it to better scrape the compound.
The compound had been greatly improved but the new plate showed some flaw that I corrected.
A clamp style holder is a good idea. Might make a couple of sizes and styles as you learn what you need.
Craigs list is a good place to look for surface plates.
You'll need pins to measure the dovetails and mics or an indicator setup to take the reading.
You could measure and make the gib first, also a new nut or screw if needed. How will you tap the nut?
I now wish I had made a log of the parts dimensions and slop before and after. Something to think about.
Keep your eye out for any cast iron stock or components you can use to practice on.
Take note of how the oil is delivered to ways and dovetails. You might be able to improve on that.
My hand flaking isn't up to snuff yet so I've not tried it on a machine component. The ways still move nicely.
There are others here who know what they're doing so read through the posts and keep a list of ideas and questions to run past them.
Lots of prep will save trouble later and keep a flow to the work. I was frustrated enough that I just jumped into it and dealt with problems as they came up.

The  little lathe I have was so far out I could have thrown sand into it and improved the movement.


----------



## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> It's all a lot to think about. Would it be horrible if I fixed the compound so that there isn't any slop...for the full travel? You guys gotta "enable" me a little bit. Can I buy a compound and scrape that in?  I want a surface plate...(that's flat.) That way if I ruin the extra compound it won't matter.  I would hope that could be classified as a small step?  So we could spin this topic towards the compound and perhaps you guys can help me approach that. I have enthusiasm for miles. Even for learning the machine.
> 
> I should at least get this thing measured once leveled etc on the new legs.
> 
> Paul


Yes, the slop in the compound needs to be repaired, it is keeping you from using a fully operational machine.  Have you taken it apart yet?  Unless your compound is damaged beyond repair, I can see no reason to buy another one.  You probably should show the disassembled pieces to someone who knows what to do.  You might also want to bring the cross slide and it's gibs at the same time, they can be part of the issue and are needed to match the compound rest to.  Read Connelly some more.  The first two tasks in the sequence of operations for reconditioning a lathe are
1.  Level the bed (see Sec. 26.35 through Sec. 26.39)
2. Scrape and align compound slide rest assembly.
So, get the legs and perhaps the chip pan on it, and level it...  Journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step, Grasshopper...  8^)


----------



## Rustrp

expressline99 said:


> You guys gotta "enable" me a little bit.



Enable? This only comes into play regarding tool acquisition. I would say buy but there are so many ways to acquire tools. 

As Bob said, legs and chip tray, then someone walking by will do a double take and remark, nice legs, good looking flared skirt on the tray, and level too.


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## tertiaryjim

When leveling or removing twist, it takes time for the  "system", bed legs n all, to fully react to adjustments.
The larger the adjustment, the longer it takes. Give the machine a couple days or more before re-checking.
The compound rides on the cross slide and could be scraped before leveling the machine " except " it is best if it sits on a parallel plane to the bed and cross slide.
That being said, you could indicate from reference points and unless the bed or cross slide look like corkscrews it would work fine.
Perhaps the experts will jump in on this. Please!
I didn't do this but everything was so far out there wasn't meat enough to machine it true.. Wish it had been otherwise.
Patience is a virtue.


----------



## expressline99

OK a couple of things to bring up. I did have the gibs  on the cross slide and compound replaced by a shop here in town. I supplied the gibs as bought from Logan. I had them measure things....however at that point (maybe 2015?) I had even less of a clue. When I got the parts back they had things tightened up to the point it limited movement too much in my mind anyway. Much later I started using it and spotting things to fix....or wanting to fix. While I was replacing the spindle bearings on my Bridgeport rebuild I found a set of NOS bearings to fit the Logan. About two months ago? One month who knows. But it's got new bearings...oh and a new motor and a new serpentine belt....I put a QC tool post on it. But didn't have the mill so it's a round nut. That needs work. 

I want to make my own feed screws. But I need a follow rest to cut the acme threads on both.  I think it would be a good learning experience to do those. The nut is no problem I have taps for those. It has lots of backlash in the cross feed and the compound feed. The lead screw/half nuts seem to be in good shape. Almost no backlash.  I have learned from being on here that backlash in a lathe is easily overcome by backing out enough.  I never noticed the compound was able to twist until just a couple of months ago. Because it would POP when touching off on the work occasionally. 

The guy I got it from was up around Tahoe city I think. 2014 Had a 10ee in his garage and a tempering oven he had just built.  

So here we are. I will paint the new legs hopefully by the end of the week and figure out what to do about the chip pan. 

That's it for my explosion of thoughts to drain out of me from today. lol

Paul


----------



## expressline99

tertiaryjim said:


> When leveling or removing twist, it takes time for the  "system", bed legs n all, to fully react to adjustments.
> The larger the adjustment, the longer it takes. Give the machine a couple days or more before re-checking.
> The compound rides on the cross slide and could be scraped before leveling the machine " except " it is best if it sits on a parallel plane to the bed and cross slide.
> That being said, you could indicate from reference points and unless the bed or cross slide look like corkscrews it would work fine.
> Perhaps the experts will jump in on this. Please!
> I didn't do this but everything was so far out there wasn't meat enough to machine it true.. Wish it had been otherwise.
> Patience is a virtue.



It's obvious I need a machinist level for this and to level this and the Bridgeport. What do I look for and what length?
I'm sure this will have to sit for a while to reform with my floors the way they are..and the frame it's mounted on seems to stay with all 4 wheels down...

I'm working on the patience thing. Lucky you guys that I have the mill to fix otherwise I'd be even more of a mess on this topic!


----------



## expressline99

Rustrp said:


> Enable? This only comes into play regarding tool acquisition. I would say buy but there are so many ways to acquire tools.
> 
> As Bob said, legs and chip tray, then someone walking by will do a double take and remark, nice legs, good looking flared skirt on the tray, and level too.



Very true I wish one of my tenants was a machinist!  Oh and I just remembered I need the 5th Leg! For that outboard motor setup


----------



## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Yes, the slop in the compound needs to be repaired, it is keeping you from using a fully operational machine.  Have you taken it apart yet?  Unless your compound is damaged beyond repair, I can see no reason to buy another one.  You probably should show the disassembled pieces to someone who knows what to do.  You might also want to bring the cross slide and it's gibs at the same time, they can be part of the issue and are needed to match the compound rest to.  Read Connelly some more.  The first two tasks in the sequence of operations for reconditioning a lathe are
> 1.  Level the bed (see Sec. 26.35 through Sec. 26.39)
> 2. Scrape and align compound slide rest assembly.
> So, get the legs and perhaps the chip pan on it, and level it...  Journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step, Grasshopper...  8^)



On the taken it apart see previous reply...plus I've cleaned all moving parts thoroughly 

OK so do you feel I need to read each section on all the different machines? Or are there lots of redundancy? I don't mind doing so if needed. 

Wax on Wax off Master Bob!  I guess you could call me Paulson but that might get a little weird. 8)


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> On the taken it apart see previous reply...plus I've cleaned all moving parts thoroughly
> 
> OK so do you feel I need to read each section on all the different machines? Or are there lots of redundancy? I don't mind doing so if needed.
> 
> Wax on Wax off Master Bob!  I guess you could call me Paulson but that might get a little weird. 8)


I think you can read and understand well everything up to and including the lathe section, which is the first machine section, and you will have the gist of it.  Throughout the book there are AHA! moments that apply to the other machines as well, so I also suggest a slow and pensive read of the entire book.  I must be a real geek, but I use stuff like Machinery's Handbook(s), Machine Tool Reconditioning, and other machining tomes as bathroom reading.  A little at a time, sometimes need to go back a page or two and get back up to speed, gives me time to ponder each paragraph until it clicks and sinks in.  The best time to learn is when we are not in a hurry...


----------



## tertiaryjim

I find an 8" is very handy for leveling across the bed and for leveling along the bed length.
For checking  the ways on the compound and cross slide a 6" and 4" are nice.

It's best to use the shortest level that will "reach" across the support points.
If possible use precision parallels or V-blocks at the support points rather than having the entire length
of the level sitting on the ways.

Some will say that a Sarrett 98 level isn't accurate enough but with proper use they will put you 
within a couple of tenths/foot or better.
Having been a millwright I've long had a lot of the tools that most people have to go out and buy.


----------



## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> It's obvious I need a machinist level for this and to level this and the Bridgeport. What do I look for and what length?
> I'm sure this will have to sit for a while to reform with my floors the way they are..and the frame it's mounted on seems to stay with all 4 wheels down...
> 
> I'm working on the patience thing. Lucky you guys that I have the mill to fix otherwise I'd be even more of a mess on this topic!


It is pretty easy to get the wrong level.  Just because it says Starrett or Pratt and Whitney on it does not mean it will work for you.  Length is important, get it wrong and you will have issues.  For general use on a lathe, I would recommend a level long enough to bridge the width of the bed, or a little longer.  You will be able to do what you need to with it.  If it is too long, it will not fit where it needs to on other jobs, if too short, it will not bridge some gaps.  There are workarounds, but blocking levels up unnecessarily leads to tolerance stacking, and is to be avoided as much as reasonably possible.  My precision level is .0005" per 10" resolution, is 8" long, and is a Chinese import.  It works fine, a bit fussy to calibrate.  The accuracy is perhaps too high for leveling a lathe, because it gets quite fussy, but I also use it for other jobs where I require the better resolution.  Many people use levels with .005" per 10" resolution (count the zeros!), and I think that borders on not accurate enough for some work, but likely OK for leveling a lathe, as I understand leveling a lathe.  I do not like cheap electronic levels at all, make sure you clearly understand accuracy, resolution, and repeatability before reading the specs, if they actually give the specs.  High end electronic levels are great, but very expen$ive, and can be fussy.  Choosing a level is not a place for penis envy, we need to carefully consider what we need and how close we need to be, and then get to it with the correct tools.  Otherwise it is possible to fuss around all day and only get frustrated, or get it done quickly and easily, but not getting the results you think you need.  Working once with an old pro can be enlightening...


----------



## expressline99

So they don't rate levels on 12" of resolution? Or is resolution dependent on manufacture?  I don't need an electronic level. I think with a level that was in the 1/2 tenths I could get done in a day leveling the lathe. LOL I think the fuss factor would be really high for me! Oh I don't have envy with something like this. I don't know where to start other than one idea by brand you shot down for me   So you both are saying possibly a level that is in the .005 resolution per 10-12" at some length past the width of the bed? An 8" is wider than the bed is. Would that level be good enough to level the mill when I get to that? Where I stand today I am not sure where I could even begin to use a level that is in the tenths.

Today's reading test bars for spindle testing.


----------



## Bob Korves

Well, mine says ".0005" in 10" resolution" on it.  That is probably a conversion from a metric value, the level is made in China.  Any level that will fit across the ways should be a good level for leveling the lathe, and will certainly work on your milling machine as well.  Machines do not need to be level for use, just geometrically correct, but being level helps with setups, often helps the coolant flow to the drain, and round stuff does not roll off onto the floor as readily...    I think .005" in 12" or thereabouts would be fine for leveling your Logan, but others may well disagree...

Edit:  I forgot that you are thinking about scraping it in!  In that case, perfection is your friend.  .005" in one foot would be .020" over a four foot bed.  Fine for dialing in a running lathe, but I don't think you want to scrape that much off of your lathe!  In reality, you won't, of course.  But a good leveling job will be the start of mapping out what needs to be done to the lathe overall.  Don't skimp on that part of the process!


----------



## Bob Korves

Paul, you can borrow my level (short term!) if you want to for the initial mapping of your lathe.


----------



## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Paul, you can borrow my level (short term!) if you want to for the initial mapping of your lathe.



This sounds a lot better than me getting the wrong one!  I have an interesting idea for this.


----------



## tertiaryjim

The starrett 98's are .005"/12"     Doesn't matter what the length of the level is. They have the same vials so give the same reading.
There are tricks to get the maximum accuracy though it will take more time.
When using feeler gauges with the levels the length of the level must be considered.

For starting on the compound ,it needs to be checked for parallel with the ways. an indicator would be better for this but you need a stable base 
that can be moved from one side of the saddle to the other and/or slid along the ways and still retain zero.
Dont forget that the bottom of the compound and the mating surface of the cross-slide have to be checked and perhaps scraped for contact as well.


----------



## expressline99

Do I need to order some feet for these legs? Or will the Bolts they have do? Seems like bolt heads aren't what would normally be there? They don't have any cups/feet to go under them.. I would think there would be large rubber feet that tilt to the floors contour to displace some of the weight a little more. 

I hope to scrape everything in that needs it. For sure the compound and cross feed surfaces.


----------



## 4GSR

Guys,

This thread has gone from scraping irons to precision levels to footing for the lathe bed.  Please start a new topic on this.
If this continues on this thread it will get closed.  This has been a great thread relating to the topic, now time to get back on topic.  Let's talk about scraping irons here!

Ken


----------



## Rustrp

4gsr said:


> Guys,
> 
> This thread has gone from scraping irons to precision levels to footing for the lathe bed.  Please start a new topic on this.
> If this continues on this thread it will get closed.  This has been a great thread relating to the topic, now time to get back on topic.  Let's talk about scraping irons here!
> 
> Ken


While I agree the thread has gone many different directions the topics are good and we're still discussing the same new (old) lathe and the new member here along with being a new lathe owner with lots of questions that would get lost if he moved them around to fit the square into the specific hole. Sometimes it's better to just flow. There are plenty of posts here that have nothing to do with machining, that go on and on, and while I appreciate the problem presented they have nothing to do with machining other than a hobby machinist is asking the question. e.g. Removing a gate cane bolt stuck in the concrete.

It's Friday, don't worry be happy, and have a good weekend.


----------



## Rustrp

expressline99 said:


> Do I need to order some feet for these legs? Or will the Bolts they have do? Seems like bolt heads aren't what would normally be there? They don't have any cups/feet to go under them.. I would think there would be large rubber feet that tilt to the floors contour to displace some of the weight a little more.
> 
> I hope to scrape everything in that needs it. For sure the compound and cross feed surfaces.



If you need leveling then it needs to be done with steel levelers or shims and if the legs have bolts you could get some with larger heads or put steel shims on the floor. There are vibration isolators designed to level precision equipment but you are not in that arena. Stay with the first few items on your list and the rest will fall in place. Restoring isn't HDTV, it's a slower process and no matter how it happens, it seldom gets completed within the hour allotted for the (un)reality TV show. Here's a link if you choose to go this way. -Russ
http://www.industrialcasterandwheel.com/specialty-products/levelers.htm


----------



## 4GSR

Rustrp said:


> While I agree the thread has gone many different directions the topics are good and we're still discussing the same new (old) lathe and the new member here along with being a new lathe owner with lots of questions that would get lost if he moved them around to fit the square into the specific hole. Sometimes it's better to just flow. There are plenty of posts here that have nothing to do with machining, that go on and on, and while I appreciate the problem presented they have nothing to do with machining other than a hobby machinist is asking the question. e.g. Removing a gate cane bolt stuck in the concrete.
> 
> It's Friday, don't worry be happy, and have a good weekend.


Alright, I agree.  Scratch what I said and finish on. Something like that!

BTW- Those levelers are nice.  I put a set on my 14" Rockwell lathe which didn't have a way to level without using shims.


----------



## expressline99

4gsr said:


> Alright, I agree.  Scratch what I said and finish on. Something like that!
> 
> BTW- Those levelers are nice.  I put a set on my 14" Rockwell lathe which didn't have a way to level without using shims.



OK  so for as small as this lathe is can I assume anything that fits the threads in the legs will work? I am planning on putting more weight on the legs to reduce even more
vibration. Total overkill but I just happen to have lots of iron now. 

I do however want to get the surface plate situation taken care of.  Without that I can't even work on practice scrapings. I have lots of things to practice on without getting near the lathe.   

Paul


----------



## Rustrp

expressline99 said:


> I am planning on putting more weight on the legs to reduce even more
> vibration.



Vibration? Okay, I'm leaning a little towards Ken's earlier comment. I thought we were discussing a Logan 200, so where does the Harley fit in?
This may be the time to look for a project manager.


----------



## 4GSR

Rustrp said:


> This may be the time to look for a project manager.


Send it to Rustrp,
He doesn't have anything else better to do.  Oh wait a minute, did I say that.


----------



## expressline99

Rustrp said:


> Vibration? Okay, I'm leaning a little towards Ken's earlier comment. I thought we were discussing a Logan 200, so where does the Harley fit in?
> This may be the time to look for a project manager.



You guys are my project managers!  So far you guys have kept the cost below $10,000... at least as far as you know. 

We are but I'm preparing for the Leblond Regal 15 x 54 I need to get back. I had one and sold it before I had time to use or learn how to use it. 10 years ago just before I moved into this house. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I sold that.   I realize the project "subject" doesn't justify doing all these things to it.  It's a 70 year old tiny lathe. But it's a consciousness captivity machine I'm after.  It's wonderful you guys are humoring my ideas. I really do appreciate it. 

No Harley to be found here. I quit riding on the street along time ago. Did I mention I sold some motorcycles when I sold that lathe? lol

Anyway, back to scraping and leveling. I watched part of a video today on calibrating levels. oxtoolsco. Very interesting that it can be done pretty much on any surface level or not. Great instruction there.  The taking the twist out of the lathe makes total sense before scraping in anything. Since that would throw off any reference points you may have had. 

Paul


----------



## tertiaryjim

I like that little 4" level as it tucks right into the dovetail. The base of the compound and its mating surface were scraped for contact.
Parallels are needed to span the ways and dovetails.  
In the second pic is a parting tool with red tape on the handle. Thats what I used to scrape the compound with.
Just saved you twenty bucks.
OK, I was desperate.
You mentioned a faceplate. Checked mine and the surface that mates to the spindle had maybe 25% contact so I scraped it as well.
It's all a amateur job but when I can make a consistent flaking pattern it will be torn down for improvements.
Before starting, any oil I put to the ways just ran right out. After scraping I couldn't get oil into it till after I made an air outlet.


----------



## expressline99

tertiaryjim said:


> I like that little 4" level as it tucks right into the dovetail. The base of the compound and its mating surface were scraped for contact.
> Parallels are needed to span the ways and dovetails.
> In the second pic is a parting tool with red tape on the handle. Thats what I used to scrape the compound with.
> Just saved you twenty bucks.
> OK, I was desperate.
> You mentioned a faceplate. Checked mine and the surface that mates to the spindle had maybe 25% contact so I scraped it as well.
> It's all a amateur job but when I can make a consistent flaking pattern it will be torn down for improvements.
> Before starting, any oil I put to the ways just ran right out. After scraping I couldn't get oil into it till after I made an air outlet.



The scraping tool I have for practice is a file that Bob helped me sharpen. Your parting tool scraper is in good company. 

How many passes do you think it took to scrape down the compound? On yours you did it all with scraping no other machining to get it closer first? 
Or did you mill or grind them first?


----------



## Rustrp

4gsr said:


> Send it to Rustrp,
> He doesn't have anything else better to do.  Oh wait a minute, did I say that.


Well it can't be said that I don't look for a challenge..

In this case the quantity of projects comes into question. I know of at least three; There's a surface plate stand and mount, a BP top-end overhaul and the Logan 200 10" in progress. First, I think we should add leveling the garage floor (float it smooth) and add a unique one of a kind epoxy covering. They can even add machine decals, any metrology tools, formulas, into the mix just to show the level of H-M addiction.

http://elitecrete.com/


----------



## tertiaryjim

How many passes?
I don't even know how many days it took. Arthritic makes me slow and not knowing what I was doing could have had some small affect.

Would like to have machined all surfaces flat and square but the lathe was so far out that strength might have been affected and I didn't have the strength 
to scrape all those surfaces.
Yea! Its that bad. So I just got the dovetails lined up to the edge a bit better, flat and even.
The factory clearly machined the lathe with little reguard to the standard reference points and didn't bother
to keep surfaces on the same plane. Some of the problems are probably due to green castings.

Don't let anything scare you off.
Read, Learn, Prepare your tooling. Watch for tool deals while you study and plan.
Measure and record your compound readings on drawings prior to starting.
The results will be magic and something to be proud of.
Then you'll want to start scraping everything.


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## 4GSR

Rustrp said:


> ...........................add leveling the garage floor (float it smooth) and add a unique one of a kind epoxy covering. They can even add machine decals, any metrology tools, formulas, into the mix just to show the level of H-M addiction.
> 
> http://elitecrete.com/


I worked at a facility up in Huntsville, TX (Place didn't have razor wire fence around the facility, that place was down the street from us) Management came in and had about 25,000 sq/ft of this done to the shop floor.  It was nice and expensive! Was like $125 sq/ft.

We really getting off topic now!!!


----------



## expressline99

Rustrp said:


> Well it can't be said that I don't look for a challenge..
> 
> In this case the quantity of projects comes into question. I know of at least three; There's a surface plate stand and mount, a BP top-end overhaul and the Logan 200 10" in progress. First, I think we should add leveling the garage floor (float it smooth) and add a unique one of a kind epoxy covering. They can even add machine decals, any metrology tools, formulas, into the mix just to show the level of H-M addiction.
> 
> http://elitecrete.com/



I've got superior OCD for my H-M addictions. The BP "complete" head rebuild is 98% all I have to do is mount the motor. I changed the motor bearings a couple of days ago. That is an extremely exhaustive one.  Which I can tie into scraping here. I was looking at the column and it still has scraping on the flats. Pretty much visible the entire length. But I would imagine that's because its not getting any contact wear.

I am a living challenge.  If you guys want to add something to the list I was considering adding a 3 car(8 machine) garage to my house in addition to the 2 car.  Which will require removing the dual septic tanks and connecting into the street sewer line which is 11ft in the ground....and my house has brick on the outside so that would have to be removed on a 1/4 of the house...and a new curb cut and entry into the property from the street made


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## expressline99

tertiaryjim said:


> How many passes?
> I don't even know how many days it took. Arthritic makes me slow and not knowing what I was doing could have had some small affect.
> 
> Would like to have machined all surfaces flat and square but the lathe was so far out that strength might have been affected and I didn't have the strength
> to scrape all those surfaces.
> Yea! Its that bad. So I just got the dovetails lined up to the edge a bit better, flat and even.
> The factory clearly machined the lathe with little reguard to the standard reference points and didn't bother
> to keep surfaces on the same plane. Some of the problems are probably due to green castings.
> 
> Don't let anything scare you off.
> Read, Learn, Prepare your tooling. Watch for tool deals while you study and plan.
> Measure and record your compound readings on drawings prior to starting.
> The results will be magic and something to be proud of.
> Then you'll want to start scraping everything.



I won't be scared of it. I'm thoroughly familiar with Meloxicam been on it for several years. I always know when it's going to rain!  

Reading, learning, preparing and listening! The recording of measurements should be fun There are a lot to make note of. However, my drawing skills are substandard at best.


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## expressline99

For scraping in of the compound and cross slide etc what grade of plate am I going to need? Will grade B work? Or should I get at least an A? I've been chatting with someone selling a Starrett pink 24 x 24 x 4"  Grade B. He says it's new but been in storage for 10 years. Still has original packaging.  If I can buy it and get it home for 500$ or less should I do it? I know it's plenty large enough. 

Paul


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> For scraping in of the compound and cross slide etc what grade of plate am I going to need? Will grade B work? Or should I get at least an A? I've been chatting with someone selling a Starrett pink 24 x 24 x 4"  Grade B. He says it's new but been in storage for 10 years. Still has original packaging.  If I can buy it and get it home for 500$ or less should I do it? I know it's plenty large enough.
> 
> Paul


A used surface plate has no grade unless it has a current certification and you know first hand how it was cared for since then.  It is only a grave marker until it is calibrated and certified to meet the tolerances of the grade.  Surface plates bought used can only considered to be cores, not usable tools, at least in the strict sense.  They are complete unknowns, unless you have a certified and calibrated autocollimator, and a repeat-o-meter, both tested to do good work, and the acquired skills to get good test results.  I bought my surface plate in known suspect condition, and had it calibrated and certified.  It looked wonderfully flat.  Chasing a tenths indicator mounted on a surface gage around the plate told me essentially nothing useful.  When it was calibrated it initially tested at .003" out over the 18x24" plate, hollow in the middle.  That is the Grand Canyon in surface plate land.  Pretty, Starrett pink, and shiny do not equal flat.  Again, ALL used surface plates are just cores, unknown quantities, until proven otherwise.  I paid $50 for the core, and about $100 to have it calibrated to grade AA and certified to grade A.  If I had paid more for the core, it might have been better to just buy a new plate.

Paul, grade B is workshop grade, for testing things and doing layout on the shop floor.  It is also probably accurate enough to be a master for your lathe, if it is in current calibration, not after 10 years of storage.  At this point the accuracy would need to be verified ($$$).


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## expressline99

Thanks Bob great info. Are the new imports worth a look or should I stick with top brands? This is a tool I'd like to do once if possible.  BTW you were right about MSC being close. If I can get this narrowed down I can probably just go get the thing this week. Only a 35 minute drive from my house.  Of course on the other hand If I can find a core as you put it. Several of the certification companies come to Reno by scheduled dates from what I see on various sites. Then again might be throwing money down a hole if my core is too far out.  

Another part of my study. I bought that DVD set on Ebay for scraping. Part way through it now. I do like how the guy presents fixing squareness issues. Also showing the way measurements are taken for that and parallelism on a Bridgeport mill he is scraping in as demonstration. I'm sure you guys know which one I'm talking about.


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> Thanks Bob great info. Are the new imports worth a look or should I stick with top brands? This is a tool I'd like to do once if possible.  BTW you were right about MSC being close. If I can get this narrowed down I can probably just go get the thing this week. Only a 35 minute drive from my house.  Of course on the other hand If I can find a core as you put it. Several of the certification companies come to Reno by scheduled dates from what I see on various sites. Then again might be throwing money down a hole if my core is too far out.
> 
> Another part of my study. I bought that DVD set on Ebay for scraping. Part way through it now. I do like how the guy presents fixing squareness issues. Also showing the way measurements are taken for that and parallelism on a Bridgeport mill he is scraping in as demonstration. I'm sure you guys know which one I'm talking about.


Brands are not important at all.  Current certification to traceable US standards by people I can trust is imperative.  The guys who came and calibrated our plates, and who do dozens of plates every day, said the Chinese imports are often very good, but also sometimes WAY off.  That is caused by inadequate or totally lacking quality control.  Again, there is no way of knowing for sure without the special equipment and the skills to use them reliably.  I want my reference surfaces, flat, length, and squareness, to be known quantities, not question marks.  They are the basis of accuracy, upon which everything else is compared to, the ultimate arbitrators of my modest shop.  Anything else is a wild ass guess, my guesses are within known tolerances.  It seems silly to me to have a bunch of high resolution tools and tooling, none of which can be trusted because it is all being used with hope that it might be correct.  If your two micrometers are giving different readings, how do you know which one is correct?  It may or may not be the one in the red box...


----------



## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Brands are not important at all.  Current certification to traceable US standards by people I can trust is imperative.  The guys who came and calibrated our plates, and who do dozens of plates every day, said the Chinese imports are often very good, but also sometimes WAY off.  That is caused by inadequate or totally lacking quality control.  Again, there is no way of knowing for sure without the special equipment and the skills to use them reliably.  I want my reference surfaces, flat, length, and squareness, to be known quantities, not question marks.  They are the basis of accuracy, upon which everything else is compared to, the ultimate arbitrators of my modest shop.  Anything else is a wild ass guess, my guesses are within known tolerances.  It seems silly to me to have a bunch of high resolution tools and tooling, none of which can be trusted because it is all being used with hope that it might be correct.  If your two micrometers are giving different readings, how do you know which one is correct?  It may or may not be the one in the red box...



So Traceable brands do matter. After reading that I'm pretty much at a loss unless I buy a new NIST certified plate straight from the manufacturer. Me buying a known core for $50 and being in a place where I can get it certified in the next year is highly unlikely. MSC plates are not traceable unless you buy Starrett from them.  If I buy used I could be getting a stone that is just that a rock that can't be re-certified due to excessive wear.  So really the simple answer is don't buy import it's a crap shoot. Buy a major brand or forget being able to count on it at all.


----------



## Rustrp

Bob Korves said:


> If your two micrometers are giving different readings, how do you know which one is correct?


But this also holds true if they both read the same.


----------



## astjp2

I used a King way alignment tool that I made from a cast Iron bar and turned on a lathe and milled.  I made 2 different sizes, one for the compound and  for the crossfeed, a second one for the bed.  Here are a few pics of measuring.  My original bed was worn .008 and the new one is .0006.  I also have a used 4'x6'x8" plate that Bebop checked and said that was a Grade B overall and was grade A on about half of it.  Good enough to scrape a hobby lathe. I still have a lot do to on this lathe.  I had to stop because of school and work.  Now that school is over, I can get back to some of my hobby.  Tim  
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
 .


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## expressline99

[QUOTE="astjp2, post: 492602, member: 26280"I used a King way alignment tool that I made from a cast Iron bar and turned on a lathe and milled.  I made 2 different sizes, one for the compound and  for the crossfeed, a second one for the bed.  Here are a few pics of measuring.  My original bed was worn .008 and the new one is .0006.  I also have a used 4'x6'x8" plate that Bebop checked and said that was a Grade B overall and was grade A on about half of it.  Good enough to scrape a hobby lathe. I still have a lot do to on this lathe.  I had to stop because of school and work.  Now that school is over, I can get back to some of my hobby.  Tim   .[/QUOTE]

Great pictures! That's a tool I'd love to have. That plate is huge. Are you self taught on the scraping or have you taken the class?


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## 4GSR

The only real problem I have with the Kingway alignment checking tool is with the way it is used.  Almost everyone uses the tailstock ways to run the alignment tool on.  How do you know the tailstock ways are not worn, too?
Did you run the indicator against a unworn area of the bed, like between the ways, to determine if there was any wear on the tailstock ways?

BTW- Nice job on the saddle scraping and cross slide, too.


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## astjp2

There are 2 inverted v's and 2 flats, the saddle only runs on one inverted V, the front one, the back one is only used to mount the tail stock and steady rest, so I used those as my "true surface" to measure from after I measured the bed using about 8 different methods, you can also stick out the .0005 indicator towards the head several inches and see the drop on the original bed if you only have one inverted V, the second bed required a .0001 indicator.   The bed on the back side was actually worn below the flat surface on the bottom side several thou' you can measure this with the mic in conjunction with the indicator on top.  The indicator validates the drop in the bed if the saddle has worn the top, which it typically will not happen because the cutter causes the back of the saddle to rise from what I have measured.

    I paid $300 for the slab and the table was given to me, I had to weld some supports for the 3 mounting pads, and make it have adjustable feet.  I used cannode blue and yellow to scrape in, the blue by itself works but the yellow highlights where I need to scrape.  I have a lot more scraping to do, I need to make a carbide end that is thin enough to get into the dovetails.  Bebop gave me some pointers over at my shop a couple of times, I will need to seek his help again when I get back into it in a few months after my second job winds down.  Making the tooling is not hard, you just need to find a few precision rods, snugs which I got from McMaster Carr, and Carr Lane carries the precision ball that I mounted.  I also have a carbide endmill insert that is round that I use as a slide, its hard surface that runs across and does not want to dig into the surface you are measuring.  here is the link to my plate build.  http://www.hobbymachinist.org/threads/surface-plate-info.19585/


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## Bob Korves

Paul, here are some brand new and very good novice scraping videos, from a master of all things 'home shop.'


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> So Traceable brands do matter. After reading that I'm pretty much at a loss unless I buy a new NIST certified plate straight from the manufacturer. Me buying a known core for $50 and being in a place where I can get it certified in the next year is highly unlikely. MSC plates are not traceable unless you buy Starrett from them.  If I buy used I could be getting a stone that is just that a rock that can't be re-certified due to excessive wear.  So really the simple answer is don't buy import it's a crap shoot. Buy a major brand or forget being able to count on it at all.


It is not the brands that matter.  It is that the calibration tools are calibrated to NIST, and the techs know and care what the hell they are doing.  Standridge Granite goes on a road trip which includes going to Reno from their home in Southern California several times each year.  They would be happy to stop by and calibrate and certify your plate for you.  BUT, there is a mileage charge and a minimum invoice charge, which will make it prohibitively high priced all said and done.  We had Standridge come by my shop and cert. 5 plates from 4 owners.  Together, we shared the mileage charge and had enough work to make the minimum invoice, so it was quite a bit cheaper that way.  They can all be calibrated, regardless of wear, Standridge charges extra for over .001" out, but they let mine go for the regular price with .003" out.  It only took them about 20 minutes to calibrate and certify it.  Good company, friendly and helpful techs, love to talk while they work and answer questions, and deliver more than what they promise.

My point is that if you have to trust someone, use someone you can trust.


----------



## 4GSR

astjp2 said:


> There are 2 inverted v's and 2 flats, the saddle only runs on one inverted V, the front one, the back one is only used to mount the tail stock and steady rest, so I used those as my "true surface" to measure from after I measured the bed using about 8 different methods, you can also stick out the .0005 indicator towards the head several inches and see the drop on the original bed if you only have one inverted V, the second bed required a .0001 indicator.   The bed on the back side was actually worn below the flat surface on the bottom side several thou' you can measure this with the mic in conjunction with the indicator on top.  The indicator validates the drop in the bed if the saddle has worn the top, which it typically will not happen because the cutter causes the back of the saddle to rise from what I have measured.
> 
> ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 235353
> View attachment 235354



That still does not answer my question about the tailstock ways being straight.  How do you know they are not worn?


----------



## tertiaryjim

The price of new is really high. Too high for most of us as a hobby or when just doing a few machines.
If you find a quality plate, like that pink rock you can do some basic checks and probably come away with a goodn.
Look for scratches. You have to look from all elevations and circle the whole plate. Sunlight is great but if its at the wrong angle it will 
hide scratches.
Lightly run your open hand over the plate to feel for damage.
Light is very important and a light you can move around to make scratches show while you look from differing positions is needed.
Look for proper mounting of the plate and that it was covered and not used as a table.
Look for chips.  
There's information if you do a search for checking them with an indicator.

You can actually scrape a part so flat that it will let you feel some minor flaws in the plate.
Some good deals come up if you watch craigs list n such but you might have to wait awhile.
For the price you spoke of I would expect it to have a nice stand and be in perfect condition and maybe be delivered.
Perhaps they should have it calibrated too. But I'm kinda cheap.


----------



## 4GSR

Going by Jim's comments above on buying a used surface plate.  I have a Starrett pink granite plate I picked up a while back.  Actually had it shipped to me.  The seller was nice enough to put a piece of beaver board over the top to keep it from being damaged.  It's a 18 x 24 two ledge that is almost 7" thick!  The surface is smooth with a  edge that was nicked.  Other than that, a nice surface plate.  I don't trust it for scraping, for laying out and other uses, it's good enough.  One of these days, I'll get it checked and calibrated.  My other surface plate is a 18 x 24 Trustone, I think that's the name, now part of Starret.  It had some kind of fixture attached to it when I got it.  Very obvious, this plate was used very little in it's life. Does have a calibration sticker on it from 2000 something and calibrated to "A" precision.  After using it for scraping and fitting, I'm beginning to think it is closer to a "AA" precision plate!  So, there are good plates out there, just have be  very selective in choosing one that is in good shape for our kind of work.


----------



## astjp2

If you put the indicator on the tailstock ways, about 5" away, along it, you will see it dip if its having a problem.  Look at the two outer pictures of the 3 in a row posted above, if you set up like the one on the right and put the indicator on the back inverted way like its shown on the left, you will see it dip if its worn when you move along it.  I need to take a picture of what I mean but my shop is chaos so it wont happen for a while....


----------



## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> It is not the brands that matter.  It is that the calibration tools are calibrated to NIST, and the techs know and care what the hell they are doing.  Standridge Granite goes on a road trip which includes going to Reno from their home in Southern California several times each year.  They would be happy to stop by and calibrate and certify your plate for you.  BUT, there is a mileage charge and a minimum invoice charge, which will make it prohibitively high priced all said and done.  We had Standridge come by my shop and cert. 5 plates from 4 owners.  Together, we shared the mileage charge and had enough work to make the minimum invoice, so it was quite a bit cheaper that way.  They can all be calibrated, regardless of wear, Standridge charges extra for over .001" out, but they let mine go for the regular price with .003" out.  It only took them about 20 minutes to calibrate and certify it.  Good company, friendly and helpful techs, love to talk while they work and answer questions, and deliver more than what they promise.
> 
> My point is that if you have to trust someone, use someone you can trust.



Bob, Shars says they can provide a NIST traceable plate for an extra $75.00 would this fit the bill? If not I'm about to buy a new one from either ACE, Standridge, or perhaps Precision.


----------



## expressline99

4gsr said:


> Going by Jim's comments above on buying a used surface plate.  I have a Starrett pink granite plate I picked up a while back.  Actually had it shipped to me.  The seller was nice enough to put a piece of beaver board over the top to keep it from being damaged.  It's a 18 x 24 two ledge that is almost 7" thick!  The surface is smooth with a  edge that was nicked.  Other than that, a nice surface plate.  I don't trust it for scraping, for laying out and other uses, it's good enough.  One of these days, I'll get it checked and calibrated.  My other surface plate is a 18 x 24 Trustone, I think that's the name, now part of Starret.  It had some kind of fixture attached to it when I got it.  Very obvious, this plate was used very little in it's life. Does have a calibration sticker on it from 2000 something and calibrated to "A" precision.  After using it for scraping and fitting, I'm beginning to think it is closer to a "AA" precision plate!  So, there are good plates out there, just have be  very selective in choosing one that is in good shape for our kind of work.



Wow 7" thick?  Heavy and close to AA! Seems lots of people buy used plates but being savvy enough to even get close on the quality is a long shot. For me it might be too far out there yet.  The more I read the more I don't trust myself to determine a value on one. Bob's at $50 if you can't get a recent quality report. The 500$ plate getting re certified shipped etc. It's out the window and feasibility...wouldn't come out ahead on that one. MSCdirect has plates but aren't NIST unless you get their only branded one Starrett. Bummer because their warehouse is so close.  

Another thing I'm trying to figure out is size. I think 24x24 might be the way to do. I know for sure putting something like a cross slide on it would be no problem. Plus that's the same width of my workbench. Thus I can build a table for it at a good height at the end. (3 pointer as per other thread and astjp2's table build.)

Paul


----------



## expressline99

tertiaryjim said:


> The price of new is really high. Too high for most of us as a hobby or when just doing a few machines.
> If you find a quality plate, like that pink rock you can do some basic checks and probably come away with a goodn.
> Look for scratches. You have to look from all elevations and circle the whole plate. Sunlight is great but if its at the wrong angle it will
> hide scratches.
> Lightly run your open hand over the plate to feel for damage.
> Light is very important and a light you can move around to make scratches show while you look from differing positions is needed.
> Look for proper mounting of the plate and that it was covered and not used as a table.
> Look for chips.
> There's information if you do a search for checking them with an indicator.
> 
> You can actually scrape a part so flat that it will let you feel some minor flaws in the plate.
> Some good deals come up if you watch craigs list n such but you might have to wait awhile.
> For the price you spoke of I would expect it to have a nice stand and be in perfect condition and maybe be delivered.
> Perhaps they should have it calibrated too. But I'm kinda cheap.



My lack of experience is pushing hard in the direction of new.  I think if I had the years into it like you and the other guys have I could get close.  
Yeah, on the pink plate I think I should probably skip it. It's in the middle of the country. If I was going to do it. I'd send it directly to Starrett to re calibrate. But then the cost is getting over new price...

 I am going to build a table similar to yours though. I've got a decent mig I can use.  I certainly am not as good as the unit is!

Paul


----------



## Dabbler

Paul, you can get an A quality plate from  18X24 Standridge's for about 385$ US.  More for shipping, of course - Nevada's no too far!  Better than a used plate for $400 or more...    (I have no affiliation to Standridge, nor am I a customer, just an example.)


----------



## expressline99

Dabbler said:


> Paul, you can get an A quality plate from  18X24 Standridge's for about 385$ US.  More for shipping, of course - Nevada's no too far!  Better than a used plate for $400 or more...    (I have no affiliation to Standridge, nor am I a customer, just an example.)



You got a point! I've probably spent more time talking about it than making the money to buy it!


----------



## expressline99

Maybe the question should be if you guys were going to buy a new 24x24 grade A what would you get(from the west coast)? I'm thinking the slides will fit nicely on it once I get that far.


----------



## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> Bob, Shars says they can provide a NIST traceable plate for an extra $75.00 would this fit the bill? If not I'm about to buy a new one from either ACE, Standridge, or perhaps Precision.


Paul, it is not so much the NIST certification, which can be pencil whipped very easily.  This is an item that you cannot test yourself.  Pick people you can trust.  If you get a used one, get it certified after purchase by well regarded pros.  It is a reference surface, that your work, tools, tooling, and scraping will count on to be what it says it is.  I am a really frugal guy, always looking for a better deal, but I don't want to be second guessing if my surface plate is adequately flat or not.  Contrary to hearsay and advice in this thread, you cannot tell if a surface plate is suitably accurate or not with what we typically have in our modest shops.  If someone does not care, then fine, go for it.  Just know that you are constantly guessing.  On layout work and other lower accuracy work, it does not matter.  For setting a sandwich and a cup of coffee on , it does not matter.  On a precision scraping job or machine rehab, it does matter.  For metrology work, it does matter.  For testing your tools and tooling, it does matter.


----------



## Dabbler

Let me add my vote to what Bob has said.  There are only a few items in your shop that have to be fully trustworthy - things that are very difficult to verify, but used as a reference for everything else.  Surface plate, cylindrical square or granite square and your gauge blocks are the best examples of this.  You can check everything else in your shop with these and a good test indicator.

If you surface plate is in question then I can't imagine how to calibrate everything else.


----------



## expressline99

Dabbler said:


> Let me add my vote to what Bob has said.  There are only a few items in your shop that have to be fully trustworthy - things that are very difficult to verify, but used as a reference for everything else.  Surface plate, cylindrical square or granite square and your gauge blocks are the best examples of this.  You can check everything else in your shop with these and a good test indicator.
> 
> If you surface plate is in question then I can't imagine how to calibrate everything else.



I'm taking action on this right now. Should have the decision made tomorrow.  Then we can move on to using it to scrape in a home made straight edge.


----------



## expressline99

OK I bought a new Standridge 24x24x3 Grade A.  Hopefully I'll get it delivered next week.  If that isn't good enough I don't know what else to do.


----------



## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> OK I bought a new Standridge 24x24x3 Grade A.  Hopefully I'll get it delivered next week.  If that isn't good enough I don't know what else to do.


Good choice, Paul.  It is certainly good enough.  AA is for temperature controlled metrology labs, not for home shops.  AA will of course work fine, but is simply not needed in a home shop


----------



## Bob Korves

Paul, here is the Federal standard for surface plates:
http://standridgegranite.com/forms/fed-spec-ggg-p-463c
The area that describes flatness is section 3.3.4.  For a 24x24" plate, the maximum deviation tolerance over the entire plate is 150 microinches, which is .00015".  "150 millionths" sounds even better.    Grade B is double that, grade AA is half of that.  If Standridge does the same quality of work in their shop that their road service guys did on ours, the plate they send you will be calibrated to AA tolerance.  They deliver more than they promise.  Having been made and calibrated in their factory, with higher end test equipment available, I think exceeding the specs is likely.  Standridge is a class act company in a business where reputation is everything.  Manufacturers and high end shops depend on Standridge, their reputations matter as well, and returned work for out of tolerance is a black mark.  In our hobby shops, we just smile and rest easy because we trust that they have done their work correctly and tested it thoroughly.

Make sure that you set the plate up according to the instructions.  It will be best installed where sunlight through a window does not shine on it, and in an area with minimum temperature variations.  Just do the best you can with what you have...
http://standridgegranite.com/forms/installation-instructions


----------



## expressline99

My plate arrived today at my warehouse. So it's sitting there in a crate waiting to be unpacked. But I have to build the stand now.


----------



## Bob Korves

Your plate being 24 x 24" will give you diagonals just under 34".  You should be able to spot in a 30" straightedge on your new plate on the diagonals.  Ideally a lathe bed is tested and marked with a straightedge longer than the bed by a few inches.  It is possible to do it with a shorter straightedge and doing overlapping work, but you will need to get up to speed on doing that.  But that is well down the road.  Other than that, your surface plate should do just about everything you need it to.  Congratulations!  I would have had to open it and look at it and rub it gently...


----------



## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Your plate being 24 x 24" will give you diagonals just under 34".  You should be able to spot in a 30" straightedge on your new plate on the diagonals.  Ideally a lathe bed is tested and marked with a straightedge longer than the bed by a few inches.  It is possible to do it with a shorter straightedge and doing overlapping work, but you will need to get up to speed on doing that.  But that is well down the road.  Other than that, your surface plate should do just about everything you need it to.  Congratulations!  I would have had to open it and look at it and rub it gently...



I had to move it with the forklift twice. I was very gentle. Exciting times! Hopefully I can pickup the 2" square tubing this week! I moved my table saw out of the garage last weekend to make room for the plate to live.  The overlap should be interesting. But I have to make it through having the bed level...

ah I almost forgot the new lathe legs are painted now. So more work towards the chip pan. 
The bed is 7" wide at the most. 5" between centers of the vees. So what size of level will I need. Getting closer to being able to scrape something!


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> The bed is 7" wide at the most. 5" between centers of the vees. So what size of level will I need. Getting closer to being able to scrape something!


Wide enough to reach across the ways to level them.  I would not buy one longer than that, the length will be in the way on other jobs.  Trusted (that means tested) parallels can be used to bridge longer work.


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## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Wide enough to reach across the ways to level them.  I would not buy one longer than that, the length will bet in the way on other jobs.  Trusted (that means tested) parallels can be used to bridge longer work.



OK great I will see if I can get a 6"

Paul


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## astjp2

A 12" . 0005 per foot level is plenty accurate and precise enough to level your plate.  Without a good foundation isolation pad, your concrete floor will move the plate more than that.


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## expressline99

astjp2 said:


> A 12" . 0005 per foot level is plenty accurate and precise enough to level your plate.  Without a good foundation isolation pad, your concrete floor will move the plate more than that.



I ordered the Shars 8" .0005 level. I am picking up 2" .120 square tubing to build my stand Monday.  At least with the level and a 3 point support system I should be able to check it occasionally and fix any movement that happens. I've got to do the same with my lathe once I have the chip pan done....and the mill also. I hope to scrape both in but I will need some large squares also to get that done. After I make the straight edges. If I got done this year with one machine I'd be happy. 

Paul


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## Dresden

Bob Korves said:


> I do not think sheet metal shapes would do a very good job of mapping the wear on a lathe bed that is measured in thousandths.  But, Russ is a pro, and I could be wrong.  Ken's setup was an experiment designed for grinding a lathe bed with a normally handheld grinder mounted to a trolley, which was also used to map the existing wear and the progress.
> 
> Bed ways become swaybacked typically from use, with most work done near the chuck and therefore more wear in that area where the saddle typically moves back and forth a lot.  The ways also wear sideways from side loading from tool to work loading.  Before we start removing metal, we need a map of where things are at the start so we can make plans to remove the minimum amount of metal to get the desired results.  We also need to test the progress of the work as it progresses, and finally we need to be able to know when we have accomplished the repairs to within the required tolerances.  We make jigs and templates to assist with those measurements, which cannot be done with a ruler or other simple everyday tools.
> 
> In earlier times, lathes were expected to be hand scraped, that made them "professional", like the big guys used.  Of course, expecting a scraping job on a $300 lathe was ridiculous, even in those days, so they just put some random scraping marks on it after it was planed, milled, ground, or otherwise manufactured using machine tools.  It was scraping, and it was done by hand, so the lathe was advertised as "Hand Scraped" in the promotional material.  A lot of machines are "reconditioned" today by people with scrapers who make them look nice and pretty.  They also put a nice coat of paint on the machine.  It is still a worn out POS...  Of course, some of the best machinery in the world is also finished by scraping, carefully and to very tight tolerances.  A "reconditioned" $2000 Bridgeport series 1 is not one of the great ones...  Caveat Emptor!
> 
> Edit:  People who have the skills to do that work also have the skills to know the difference between fine work and a con job...




We used to call this a Gasoline overhaul, clean, flake, paint


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## ziptie

expressline99 said:


> I'm reading the Connelly book and currently reading about templates frequently used and made. Are v templates (male and female) available? I assume made similar to v blocks but with different angles? If so what are they called in current terms? I can't seem to locate any using "v templates"  Since this are used to ensure there isn't tilt occurring from uneven wear and there are 2 on my Logan bed... I thought I would look into it. Ideas suggestions?
> 
> 
> Paul


You can do a lot using the tailstock base, a precision level and an indicator.


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## expressline99

astjp2 said:


> A 12" . 0005 per foot level is plenty accurate and precise enough to level your plate.  Without a good foundation isolation pad, your concrete floor will move the plate more than that.



Just out of total curiosity what is a foundation isolation pad?   I don't have that I've got a 43+ year old concrete floor that isn't level.


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## expressline99

Dresden said:


> We used to call this a Gasoline overhaul, clean, flake, paint



I can tell you the logan and the bridgeport didn't get any kind of overhaul.  the BP was a total mess and still going.  But until you guys told me about it I wouldn't have guessed people did this.


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## expressline99

ziptie said:


> You can do a lot using the tailstock base, a precision level and an indicator.



Getting closer everyday. The replacement level is here(first one was broken in shipping) and I got an indicator base that is adjustable enough to get where I need it...I think.


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## expressline99

It should be known that reading the Connelly book will warp your mind...at least it has mine. Now I've got this twisted thought process that is a datum point chain of surfaces interlinked into cumulative errors. Any of which could be multiplied by missing anything on your own test record...if you don't continuously update it and recheck constantly. The lathe not so bad on interlinked points if you follow standard operating procedures in getting it back to proper alignment...flatness and parallelism. Scrape straight down...not a problem if you do that everywhere based on all nearby points of reference. The mill TOTALLY different amount of points of reference and various datum collection areas and how it can end up way off down the chain if you are not careful! &) 

Paul


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> It should be known that reading the Connelly book will warp your mind...at least it has mine. Now I've got this twisted thought process that is a datum point chain of surfaces interlinked into cumulative errors. Any of which could be multiplied by missing anything on your own test record...if you don't continuously update it and recheck constantly. The lathe not so bad on interlinked points if you follow standard operating procedures in getting it back to proper alignment...flatness and parallelism. Scrape straight down...not a problem if you do that everywhere based on all nearby points of reference. The mill TOTALLY different amount of points of reference and various datum collection areas and how it can end up way off down the chain if you are not careful! &)
> 
> Paul


Agreed, Paul.  Taking shortcuts or using an ill advised sequence of operations when trying to get a mill geometrically correct will only make it more difficult to achieve and less likely to succeed in the end.  Everything affects everything else.  All corrective work must start from the machine datum point, in the case of your vertical mill the column face.  Trying to fix a problem by working where it is first discovered will only make things worse overall and waste time and effort.  Things work out better if you get each surface tested correct and finished in the proper order before moving on to the next one.


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## expressline99

OK I gave practice scraping a shot. This was on a piece of scrap CI I had laying around. ...I spent forever and learned I do a lot of side gouging. Anyhow....8hrs on something that has no use on purpose. Gotta learn before I touch those machines! I did not mill this flat...milling machine table still in pieces. So there were band saw lines and it was a sloppy mess. I will mill before I try again and it will be on a usable tool of some sort. 
Don't slaughter me I'm being brave throwing these out there. I'm not impressed with how it looks either. But it's a start. 













This was actually about 10 passes in. The piece was just a cut off Cast Iron throw away piece...lots of bandsaw lines.



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















20 passes in ...can't really see much difference from the beginning. Except I've gouged a bunch more.



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















30 passes in. Slow going A little difference...



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















40 passes in. Changes take a long time. But keep going. lol



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















50 passes. confidence was low at this point.



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















60 passes. End of first 4 hours of trying.



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















70 passes and seeing some real progress I think.



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















80 passes and my contact points were breaking up as I went. Probably a bit too soon. Edges still really low.



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















90 passes and bearing points still too far part....



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017


















100 passes. Between 90 and 100 I started using a much smaller scraper blade..and lots sharper. It took material off quickly.



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017



						Here it's hard to see the break up but the amount of bearing is tons higher than 10 passes ago...
					
















100 passes different view... first time trying without help.



__ expressline99
__ Aug 20, 2017






Paul


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> OK I gave practice scraping a shot. This was on a piece of scrap CI I had laying around. ...I spent forever and learned I do a lot of side gouging. Anyhow....8hrs on something that has no use on purpose. Gotta learn before I touch those machines! I did not mill this flat...milling machine table still in pieces. So there were band saw lines and it was a sloppy mess. I will mill before I try again and it will be on a usable tool of some sort.
> Don't slaughter me I'm being brave throwing these out there. I'm not impressed with how it looks either. But it's a start.
> Paul


Paul, it is really difficult to learn the bare basics of scraping without a mentor looking over your shoulder and telling and showing you how to make it work.  Some of what is being done by the scraper is not learnable from reading a book or watching a YouTube video.  Once you have each bit explained and demonstrated to you, progress will be much faster, with the mentor also coaching you on what to do from where you are in the process.  I am certainly not that person.  I did show you your first hour or so of scraping on a small part, but that was only intended to start the engines, not to let you be pilot in command.  You are gaining on the piece, but also making mistakes that greatly slow down the work.

What scrapers did you buy, and what radii do the blades have?  To help stop the scratching, use a tool with enough radius to keep the corners away from the work.  Also dull the corners of the blade each time you sharpen it, including the corners of the insert and the ends of the working edges.  Make sure you are getting a smooth sharpening job without scratches in it, finishing with a fine diamond hone on both the cutting edges and the flats adjacent to them.  If you can see or feel scratches or nicks on the tool, you will get scratches on the work.  You must keep the scraper parallel with the work, which is mostly done by watching where it is cutting along the edge of the blade.  You must have it cutting close to the center of the tool, especially as a beginner.  I still have that problem myself at times, and it is damned annoying.  Like everybody does, you are changing to finish scraping long before the work is flat.  It is a huge waste of time, but all of us do it until we really learn better.  Until the piece is flat, cut off metal with vigor, lowering the high areas until they are even with the lowest area, and not a bit more.  After the area coverage of the work is good, no blank spots, then start working the highest and brightest spots, moving into finish scraping.  But you are not nearly there yet on the piece you posted.  It is really frustrating removing a lot of metal from a part with a scraper, a mill does a lot better job.  When the work is within a couple thou at worst, over the entire area, then start scraping...

Don't lose faith, you WILL get there if you keep trying, and lots faster if you do it the right ways.  Get some real help from a good mentor...


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## expressline99

Sandvik handle. I used only the donated scraper blade you gave me and one from several that another member graciously gave me. Both were Sandvik with the identical radii.

I went back to the "book" tonight and was rereading. I caught the same error you just pointed out. The switching to finish scraping too early. The second I read it again in the book I knew that's what I did.  There were some other factors in the odd scraping...I was in a rather demanding stance. This should get a laugh. the only workable vice I have setup is a large work vice. It's mounted to the workbench. The workbench is higher than scraping height....the vice adds about 8-9 inches higher. Did I mention I had to stand on a milk crate to get up high enough?  Thought I'd make it hard on myself. I realize the piece posted isn't even close. But I started. So I can start correcting. As well, I've learned that I can go through the motions for hours and not be in physical pain even with poor results  I can't be the pilot yet? The engine is moving WOT. 

I need a diamond wheel setup for sure and I'll be doing that shortly. 

With all the time I spent working on this. I'm not even beginning to lose faith. It's a fine art I will work at until I get it right. Getting help from a good mentor is hard if they aren't right here. A lot of time in between "classes" is even harder. I don't want to know how to scrape by yesterday. But I want to know I am learning today and tomorrow and I want to go to the actual scraping class when it becomes available to me.  

Keep helping me I do really appreciate it. Even if you have to pull on the brake as hard as possible sometimes.


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## tertiaryjim

I still spend more time correcting my mistakes than any part should need and I'm slow at it.
When you have to scrape a lot of material because you haven't the capacity to machine a part flat, there's a tendency to 
use too much force as well as hurry which results in scratches , gouges, and rolled edges.
Then you have to take the surface down even further to clean it up.
Or, as Paul pointed out, you  might find yourself scraping gingerly when there's a lot of material yet to come off.
Well, that's why they call us beginners or amateurs.


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## expressline99

tertiaryjim said:


> I still spend more time correcting my mistakes than any part should need and I'm slow at it.
> When you have to scrape a lot of material because you haven't the capacity to machine a part flat, there's a tendency to
> use too much force as well as hurry which results in scratches , gouges, and rolled edges.
> Then you have to take the surface down even further to clean it up.
> Or, as Paul pointed out, you  might find yourself scraping gingerly when there's a lot of material yet to come off.
> Well, that's why they call us beginners or amateurs.



What's real fun is that I need to do work on the mill....and take pictures while I do so. Right now the table is off of it and other pieces....And my other lathe project requires parts to be milled to being what needs doing on that.  Plus my scraping bits could use some milling to have a decent place to start. 

I was doing all of that. Not taking off enough... then pushing too much. Rolling the tool Causing scratches and gouges. The edges are still under the plane of the mostly high center now. I might mill it off If I put the table back together this week. Ken was going to help me shim the gib on the saddle to take up the slop. ...the gib is high in the center for whatever reason. So some control over that would be good. 

I really need a proper way to sharpen these. Accu finish seems way outta range at $800+++.  I've got a green wheel so I can probably manage the initial grinding. But the honing I am not sure of.  The blades I have now were sharpened by the donors.  Anyone use a tormek? Or any reason not too?


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> Sandvik handle. I used only the donated scraper blade you gave me and one from several that another member graciously gave me. Both were Sandvik with the identical radii.
> 
> I went back to the "book" tonight and was rereading. I caught the same error you just pointed out. The switching to finish scraping too early. The second I read it again in the book I knew that's what I did.  There were some other factors in the odd scraping...I was in a rather demanding stance. This should get a laugh. the only workable vice I have setup is a large work vice. It's mounted to the workbench. The workbench is higher than scraping height....the vice adds about 8-9 inches higher. Did I mention I had to stand on a milk crate to get up high enough?  Thought I'd make it hard on myself. I realize the piece posted isn't even close. But I started. So I can start correcting. As well, I've learned that I can go through the motions for hours and not be in physical pain even with poor results  I can't be the pilot yet? The engine is moving WOT.
> 
> I need a diamond wheel setup for sure and I'll be doing that shortly.
> 
> With all the time I spent working on this. I'm not even beginning to lose faith. It's a fine art I will work at until I get it right. Getting help from a good mentor is hard if they aren't right here. A lot of time in between "classes" is even harder. I don't want to know how to scrape by yesterday. But I want to know I am learning today and tomorrow and I want to go to the actual scraping class when it becomes available to me.
> 
> Keep helping me I do really appreciate it. Even if you have to pull on the brake as hard as possible sometimes.


The 30mm wide Sandvik blade I gave you is pretty big for that small work piece, but useable.  The real problem is with the radius on that blade, which is way too shallow for anything but a real pro doing a big surface.  It is almost impossible to not have gouging with that blade as Sandvik made it, regardless of the beautiful grind on it.  When you reduce the radius, I think you will be much happier with it, at least on bigger surfaces...
Edit:  I thought I mentioned that when I gave it to you...


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> I really need a proper way to sharpen these. Accu finish seems way outta range at $800+++.


Ulma Doctor (Mike Walton) made this one for dirt cheap:  https://hobby-machinist.com/threads/shop-made-diamond-tool-sharpener.34775/
It works great!
I made an attachment for my surface grinder for $10 invested in the wheel and scrap around my shop.  I would like a Glendo -- for free!


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## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> The 30mm wide Sandvik blade I gave you is pretty big for that small work piece, but useable.  The real problem is with the radius on that blade, which is way too shallow for anything but a real pro doing a big surface.  It is almost impossible to not have gouging with that blade as Sandvik made it, regardless of the beautiful grind on it.  When you reduce the radius, I think you will be much happier with it, at least on bigger surfaces...
> Edit:  I though I mentioned that when I gave it to you...



You may have mentioned it but I think I totally spaced it. Good then my gouging is because of that.


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## Bob Korves

expressline99 said:


> You may have mentioned it but I think I totally spaced it. Good then my gouging is because of that.


Others have had the very same problem...  Also make sure you hone the blade often, and check for chipped carbide or a dull blade any time you see scratches in the work.  For me, it is usually the nut behind the handle that is the real problem.


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## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> Others have had the very same problem...  Also make sure you hone the blade often, and check for chipped carbide or a dull blade any time you see scratches in the work.  For me, it is usually the nut behind the handle that is the real problem.



So I actually had to read that and come back and read it again "NUT" I thought I should probably check and see if that is tight. OH the"NUT" lol 
I'm sure it was a dull blade most of the time. Figure I didn't hone anything....don't have a way to yet. Add another strike.


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## expressline99

What is the bare minimum speed of a a Diamond wheel setup? I swear the setup motor I've got is geared way down. So maybe too slow even at full speed? I've played with the controller to the point I think I've reached it's max frequency for this motor. But seems slow. I'm going to setup a Diamond wheel hone and have most of the parts already. Wheels/backing plate/controller/motor. Small bench top stand yet to be built But I have the steel.  A Simple tilt table...only need 3 degrees so that might just be a fixed setup super simple.  

I ran 220 over to my bench to run the controller so that part is in place...anyway. What RPM? I don't know if this gets up to 300 even. I can post pictures of the motor plate and gear box if that helps.  Maybe I have the controller setup wrong?  

Paul


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## Bob Korves

The speed (surface feet per minute, SFM) is dependent on the diameter where the contact is.  SFM is determined by diameter and rpm.


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## expressline99

Bob Korves said:


> The speed (surface feet per minute, SFM) is dependent on the diameter where the contact is.  SFM is determined by diameter and rpm.



OK Gotcha, I'll be using 6" wheels. I'll figure out the max RPM so I can see what it is.
Paul


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## 4GSR

My GrindRLap runs at about 400 rpm.  It has a 5" OD diamond wheel with a 1" wide face on it.  I don't remember the grits, something like a 240 and 800.  Also have a disc that can be charged with diamond for lapping.


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## expressline99

OK I've got the word that my motor runs at a max of 200 RPM with a 6" disc I will be mounting. So looks like 314 sfm at outer edge of disc. I really want to find one of those Grind-R-Lap tables. Otherwise I have to make one. That'll be fun I don't have a rotary table yet.

Paul


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