# 6561-h 14x40 Apron Oil



## shott8283 (Jun 5, 2016)

Starting the tear down and cleaning of my 6561 and have the apron blown apart.  Need to remake some bushings and sand blast it for a fresh coat of paint.  Wondering what type of fluid I should be putting back in there.  The old stuff smelled like rancid gear oil.  It varnished on me real bad and had to scrape out the gelled oil.  


Thanks guys!


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## Chuck K (Jun 5, 2016)

At least it had some oil in it. I've always filled the apron with vactra.  I'm sure gear lube would be fine also.


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## shott8283 (Jun 5, 2016)

I was thinking way oil but was concerned with the pressure plates in the clutch.  not sure how certain oils would affect it


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## shott8283 (Jun 5, 2016)

having a hard time finding a free copy of a manual for the machine  was hoping it would be listed in there


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## JR49 (Jun 5, 2016)

There is a copy of the Logan 6560 user manual in the downloads section here on this forum.  Or there should be, I put it there over a year ago.  Don't know if that section is running yet, since we got switched to the new server, but I'm sure it will be soon.  About the apron oil, Scott Logan told me " any good brand of 90/140 wt. gear oil is going to be as good, or better than what was recommended  back when your lathe was made". Hope this helps,  JR49


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## shott8283 (Jun 5, 2016)

that helps a ton!   thanks man.  thats exactly what the old stuff smelled like.   Ill search for the manual anyway.  thanks again!


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## Bob Korves (Jun 6, 2016)

EP gear oils, made for hypoid differentials, have an extreme pressure additive with sulfur compounds in it that can eventually damage yellow metal parts and bushings.  90/140 is perhaps OK, but I would not use it if there is any yellow metal in there (and there probably is.)  EP additives are more corrosive in enclosed cases that are running at hotter temperatures than a lathe apron, but it still is an issue.


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## mksj (Jun 6, 2016)

Most newer hypoid gear oils/EP additives do not attack brass/bronze bushings when I spoke to to their tech department about this, but it is worth checking. I have contacted a few oil manufactures (Amsoil and Valvoline) regarding this. I use Amsoil synthetic hypoid EP geari oil in my lathe head. You can always check the spec sheet "Copper Strip Corrosion ASTM D130". There can be an issue with some gear oils that are specified for limited slip differentials, they have formulations which are slightly stickier to work with wet differential clutch pack.  A gear differential oil cannot necessarily be used in a transmission, especially newer cars.  Valvoline indicated: "The Valvoline High Performance Gear Oil 80-w90 can be used for both GL4 and GL5. The real concern is the type of sulfate used in the gear oil. You can not use an active sulfate for GL-4 applications. Valvoline uses an inactive sulfate that will not harm any yellow metal such as bronze. This allows our products to be used in manual transmissions that have bronze synchronizers."
I use a Amsoil Gear Lube 75W/80W-90 (AGM) in my gear head and picked up about a 100 RPM on the top end from less friction. Also much less foaming and stays clear much longer. I would expect varnish buildup to be nil.
http://www.autozone.com/greases-and...hetic-gear-oil-sae-75w-140-32-oz-/977483_0_0/

There does seem to be some controversy on the GL-4 and GL-5 specification and stability with yellow metals so I would check with the manufacturer, this article is worth reading. http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf


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## shott8283 (Jun 6, 2016)

this could explain the worn gear bushings in a fairly gently used lathe.  gearing in the apron needs to be rebushed.   wonder if the previous owner used a gear oil that wasn't compatible with the bronze bushings ..   they don't look overly worn, but there is a considerable amount of slop in most of the gearing, especially the lower sets that were closest to the oil bath.


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## wa5cab (Jun 7, 2016)

The Logan 6560 manual had gotten mis-filed and ended up in one of the two Unknown folders (Categories).  Knowing what to look for, I found it and moved it into the Logan Manuals folder.  If you don't know the tricks to finding stuff (so long as it isn't mis-filed), read the Downloads Use instructions up in the Sticky section.


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## shott8283 (Jun 7, 2016)

mksj said:


> Most newer hypoid gear oils/EP additives do not attack brass/bronze bushings when I spoke to to their tech department about this, but it is worth checking. I have contacted a few oil manufactures (Amsoil and Valvoline) regarding this. I use Amsoil synthetic hypoid EP geari oil in my lathe head. You can always check the spec sheet "Copper Strip Corrosion ASTM D130". There can be an issue with some gear oils that are specified for limited slip differentials, they have formulations which are slightly stickier to work with wet differential clutch pack.  A gear differential oil cannot necessarily be used in a transmission, especially newer cars.  Valvoline indicated: "The Valvoline High Performance Gear Oil 80-w90 can be used for both GL4 and GL5. The real concern is the type of sulfate used in the gear oil. You can not use an active sulfate for GL-4 applications. Valvoline uses an inactive sulfate that will not harm any yellow metal such as bronze. This allows our products to be used in manual transmissions that have bronze synchronizers."
> I use a Amsoil Gear Lube 75W/80W-90 (AGM) in my gear head and picked up about a 100 RPM on the top end from less friction. Also much less foaming and stays clear much longer. I would expect varnish buildup to be nil.
> http://www.autozone.com/greases-and...hetic-gear-oil-sae-75w-140-32-oz-/977483_0_0/
> 
> There does seem to be some controversy on the GL-4 and GL-5 specification and stability with yellow metals so I would check with the manufacturer, this article is worth reading. http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf






would you suggest the amsoil gear lube for my apron then?  it has a number of gears with bronze bushings in it.   but everything turning at a relatively slow speed in relation to a gear head lathe


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## shott8283 (Jun 7, 2016)

wa5cab said:


> The Logan 6560 manual had gotten mis-filed and ended up in one of the two Unknown folders (Categories).  Knowing what to look for, I found it and moved it into the Logan Manuals folder.  If you don't know the tricks to finding stuff (so long as it isn't mis-filed), read the Downloads Use instructions up in the Sticky section.




i did find it and thank you very much..  it was very helpful


any idea if you could point me in a direction of a parts breakdown of the machine?   thanks!


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## wa5cab (Jun 7, 2016)

I'm sorry but best that I can do is suggest that you call Logan.  I just re-checked Vintage Machinery and all that they have is the one you just downloaded.


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## mksj (Jun 7, 2016)

Although I use Amsoil in my gear head, there are much cheaper alternatives. I have heard of a number of individuals using Lucas heavy duty gear oils like 85-140W available at most auto stores, they also make a full synthetic 75/140W that is rated for both differentials and transmissions. Just about any decent grade GL-4/Gl-5 gear oil should work, there is almost no stress on the gears and the GL-4 spec requires them to meet the ASTM D130 spec. The issue with older gear oils was the development of sulfuric acid which would eat yellow metals. Synchro's in manual transmission present a different issue, also some of the synthetic oils can be a problem with some of the older seals. This shouldn't be an issue in the lathe carriage, but could be a problem in the lathe headstock.
http://lucasoil.com/products/gear-oil/synthetic-gear-oil/lucas-sae-75w-140-synthetic-gear-oil


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## Usmcdevildog (Jul 9, 2016)

Scott Logan says use only vactra 2


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## shott8283 (Jul 9, 2016)

scott logan wants vactra 2 way oil in an gear fed apron with a pressure clutch?   id think a gear oil made for rear end diffs would be better


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## mksj (Jul 9, 2016)

This older post on this issue is worth reviewing. http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/logan-2555-12-oil-in-the-apron.24622/
Basically the wear you are seeing appears to be pretty common, mostly because of low oil levels. I think the point that Bob K made in one of his posts, that the Vactra 2 oil is stickier and more likely to cling to the parts may be the reason for its recommendation in this case. Bottom line, I would use what is recommended by Scott Logan.


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## Chuck K (Jul 9, 2016)

Sometimes I think we over think lubrication issues. As long as you keep your oil level where it should be just about any good oil would probably do the job in an apron. I've always used Vactra because some lathes have pumps in the apron that lube the ways and crosslde.  If it's good enough for a 10EE it should work for a logan.


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## Wobbles (Aug 3, 2016)

While there are "gears" inside the apron, they are not under enough load to warrant (or worry over) having to use a "gear oil". On the other end of the spectrum, most modern engine oils have so many friction fighting additives that I'd have to worry about the long term viability of the clutch. It's enough just to simply keep the apron wet and level topped up once a year.


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