# Stuck with 4 way toolpost. How to cope?



## taiwanluthiers (Jul 7, 2022)

So my victor lathe comes with a 4 way tool post. I cannot find a low cost source of any QTCP so for the time being I am having to cope with a 4 way tool post. Anyone here are in the same situation? How do you cope with having to scramble around for the right thickness of shims to get your tool bit up to the right height?

Right now I just buy large tool bits, 20mm square shank. Then a couple sheets of wood veneer brings it to the right height.


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## benmychree (Jul 7, 2022)

For metalworking, wood veneers are not going to make the cut as shims; pun intended.


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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 7, 2022)

benmychree said:


> For metalworking, wood veneers are not going to make the cut as shims; pun intended.


But it's all I have that will give me just enough thickness to make it to the center. I'm having trouble finding decent shim stocks out there.


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## matthewsx (Jul 7, 2022)

Beer cans?


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## AGCB97 (Jul 7, 2022)

I'll bet if you look in your garage or garbage, you'll find a multiplicity of different thickness metal to cut up!
Aaron


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## DavidR8 (Jul 7, 2022)

I have used pieces of the steel banding that is used to wrap crates.


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## mickri (Jul 7, 2022)

Make yourself a Norman style QCTP.  Not hard and it can be done with a lathe and a hand drill.  You don't need a mill.  Here is my thread on what I learned after using mine.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/norman-style-qctp.79705/


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## pontiac428 (Jul 7, 2022)

4-way setups aren't all bad.  They are a nice upgrade from a lantern post.  When I work, I typically don't need a fifth tool change, even with a quick change post.  Putting a left/right/facing/threading tool in the 4-way will cover a lot of operations.  If you need a boring bar, that's one change needed, not too bad.  You could even make a tool holder with a clamping protrusion along it's outside length that is set to height, and you can swap those holder/tool "cartridges" quick and easy with no height adjustment- the holder has that built in and set.  Seewattamean?


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## stupoty (Jul 7, 2022)

I tend to keep a pile of shims next to a tool on a shelf but I also have a couple of small trays of flat bits of bar or sheet stock.

Stu


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## Aukai (Jul 7, 2022)

6.99 at Amazon, you could probably get good prices at the discount auto stores too.


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## benmychree (Jul 7, 2022)

There must be a sheet metal shop around that has offcuts to dispose of.


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## markba633csi (Jul 7, 2022)

I used shims for several years, it works but is cumbersome.  Keep shopping for a quick change post
Also drop hints to your friends and family what you would like for birthday present


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## Dabbler (Jul 7, 2022)

For only one year I shimmed my cutters on my 12X37 4-way tool post.  I then modified all my holders always to be on centre without any shims.  it is pretty easy.  My measured distance from the bottom of the toolpost slot to centre line was .603.   I milled every 5/8 shank tool insert holder I had to make the cutting edge .603 above the 4 way.  My 1/2 tooling I made a universal carrier that was .103 on the bottom, now all those just slot right in (you might technically call that a shim if you like)

I only had one other holder, and I gave that to a friend.

I also use 1/2" HSS tools directly in the .103 riser block.

Incredibly fast.  accurate.  worry free.


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## woodchucker (Jul 7, 2022)

Aukai said:


> 6.99 at Amazon, you could probably get good prices at the discount auto stores too.
> View attachment 412905


that's what I was going to say.
they make excellent shims.
Also a shim pack of brass.

The problem with wood veneer is that it's compressible, so it will loosen up, or deflect while under load.
you need something that has no compression.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jul 7, 2022)

i used slivers of roofing steel for rough fits. And the ubiquitous feeler guage for finer fits. I found some on sale that were maybe not accurate enough to set valves but certainly made good shims when disassembled. Been a while but they showed up in a dollar bin at some parts store.

.


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## Provincial (Jul 7, 2022)

Most hardware stores have a rack that includes flat bar.  If you use 2" wide bar, you can cut pieces the width of the tool bit (or the slot in the 4-way) and get it pretty close.  I have a number of these in 1/8" and 1/4" thickness.  They change the height of bit shanks by the amount of difference in available sizes in my AXA holder.  Back in my early apprenticeship days, I did the same thing with a 4-way tool holder, sometimes needing thinner shims to adjust the height.  

Feeler gauges rarely go for more than a dollar at garage/estate sales.  Disassemble rusty ones and soak in vinegar overnight.  The rust pits don't affect their use as shims.


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## Hawkeye (Jul 7, 2022)

I made a QCTP some years ago, following an old magazine article I found on line. Might have been Popular Mechanics. I can't find it now. It was along the same lines as the Norman post mentioned above. You can make holders to suit a wide variety of bits.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 7, 2022)

Hawkeye said:


> I made a QCTP some years ago, following an old magazine article I found on line. Might have been Popular Mechanics. I can't find it now. It was along the same lines as the Norman post mentioned above. You can make holders to suit a wide variety of bits.
> 
> View attachment 412968
> View attachment 412969
> View attachment 412970


Oww! That compound is painful to look at.


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## mickri (Jul 8, 2022)

One of the nice things about the Norman QCTP is the low cost.  For under $100 I bought enough material to make 20 tool holders.  And they can be made to fit any lathe.  If you have more than one lathe as long as the post is the same OD you can use the tool holders on both lathes.  Won't even have to adjust the height if the post bases are made to compensate for different center line heights.


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## homebrewed (Jul 8, 2022)

mickri said:


> One of the nice things about the Norman QCTP is the low cost.  For under $100 I bought enough material to make 20 tool holders.  And they can be made to fit any lathe.  If you have more than one lathe as long as the post is the same OD you can use the tool holders on both lathes.  Won't even have to adjust the height if the post bases are made to compensate for different center line heights.


Totally agree about the cost and adaptability factors.  I'm currently finishing up a Norman-style tool holder for a dial indicator.  I got tired of swapping it in and out of one of my preexisting holders.  That's six so far -- three for conventional tools (and my DI), one parting blade, a boring bar and one for a diamond/tangential style cutter.  I made the post out of steel and the holders are 6061 aluminum.  They are plenty rigid, more so than my little 7x12 lathe itself.  Folks with bigger lathes probably want to use steel throughout.


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## Firebrick43 (Jul 8, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> Oww! That compound is painful to look at.


I winced when I saw it to.  I hope the employee that did that years ago was shown the door


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 8, 2022)

Firebrick43 said:


> I winced when I saw it to.  I hope the employee that did that years ago was shown the door


Looks like it did time in a school, that was more than one incident.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jul 8, 2022)

Up front, I will admit to using small tooling for my lathe. I mostly use 1/4 and 5/16 tools, a few 1/8 tools for delicate work. Much *Most* of my work is small, model building and making tools. I have a 9X19 Grizzly (G1550/G4000) and a 12X36 Craftsman/Atlas.(101.27440) I have a few larger tools that were picked up salvage. Some I have cut down, some are just used for tool steel stock. Larger tools are for large machines and are cumbersome at best for smaller machines. I will admit, over the years I have spent a great deal for tool holders. But starting out long ago, I faced a similar problem to what you are describing. And "jury rigged" around it until I had the necessary funds to do better. With that said:

*CUSTOM TOOL HOLDERS WITHOUT A MILLING MACHINE.*​
For _*light*_ milling, a lathe works moderately well. Blocking up a chunk of steel on the cross slide is often a bit of work, a milling attachment *helps* here. But getting it mounted and trued varys from machine to machine as well as personal tastes and falls into need or necessity and what is available. As is often said from many years ago, *necessity is the mother of invention*. And we, as a rule, are inventers of a sort. Mounting the milling cutter into the chuck is a given. Large milling cutters can easily be accomodated this way.

The cuts must be light, the passes many, but can be done. But that's one of the traits of a *good machinist, patience*. And lots of it. In the beginning, a simple adapter to raise or lower the tool is important. Given time and experience, tool holders can advance in complexity to adjustable dove tail devices rivaling those commercially available. And often are, just follow the threads here for examples.

As funding for "toys" advances, a simple adjustable slide holder is a good starting point. I can't think of the proper name, there are several designs. My advice would be to start with a cheaper set and replace with a good set as funding improves. It is common knowledge that costs of tooling* far exceed* the costs of the machine. The only difference is that machine costs are "right now" and tooling is more piecemeal, spread over time. Sources are many, as well as are new or used. Whether new or used depends on the tool, some are easily trued, some not so easy, and some best if new/unused. That's a personal issue, especially for a novice. As techniques improve over time, so do selections for tooling.

.


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## stupoty (Jul 8, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> Looks like it did time in a school, that was more than one incident.


Almost looks flame cut 

Stu


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## Jake M (Jul 8, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> So my victor lathe comes with a 4 way tool post. I cannot find a low cost source of any QTCP so for the time being I am having to cope with a 4 way tool post. Anyone here are in the same situation?



No, not really....  I've got a rocker tool post for most of what I do.  



taiwanluthiers said:


> How do you cope with having to scramble around for the right thickness of shims to get your tool bit up to the right height?



If you need something like that, it should be with the tool.  That is, when you lay each tool in the (drawer, box, shelf, wherever it lives when you're not using it), the shims should be with it.  Counted, sorted, just the right height for that exact tool.  I know, it seems like a lot right off, but shims are not hard to come up with.  They have to be "good", but not all that perfect.  (Good is required though).

For example, in my world, with the rocker tool post, I have two holders that are good, but present the tool too high.  I've "lathed" myself a washer that replaces the rocker at the bottom of the tool post with essentially a round shim of exactly the right height.  Each of those holders has a shim made for it, and it lives with them at all times, in use or not.  I also have a ceramic tool holder that arguably shouldn't be on my lathe on the best of days.  That has a larger shim and I skip the tool holder all together, I clamp it on a thicker round "shim" directly under the lantern screw.  That shim/spacer lives with that tool holder at all times.  My parting tools, each of those has a washer, cut down to exact thickness, that I put under the rocker, so that they present pretty level out of the rocker, but still let me "rock" them just a whisker up or down.

In your case, how much shim do you need?  Larger tool holders are a good thing, but also larger money.  You said you're using 20mm?  What size do you need?  A small stick of cold rolled flat bar of a useful width and thickness could be cut into several spacers.  As was already mentioned, an inexpensive set of automotive feeler gauges makes a GREAT starter kit for a shim selection to start from.  It's far cheaper to buy shim stock in bulk, but you can't really buy bulk if you're buying every size....  A larger shim (spacer) from the bar stock, or heavy sheet metal in a common size (lower cost than oddball or custom stuff), plus a couple of the feeler gauges to fine tune to where it needs to be).   If you're getting new tooling, now or in the future, I would suspect that what you need versus buying oversized for better fitment  would save enough money to cover the shims.  Further, as you are making things, you'll find things in your leftover turnings that could easily become a shim or spacer with a little machine time.



taiwanluthiers said:


> Right now I just buy large tool bits, 20mm square shank. Then a couple sheets of wood veneer brings it to the right height.



Wood is going to present issues.  It "might, maybe" do "ok" for some things if it's crushed tight enough, but it's not a good solution.  Metal is better.  Preferably steel (any grade will suffice, some grades are less prone to rust, but they cost more), but aluminum or brass would be suitable as well if you found it somewhere.  If you're buying it in though, I'd just go with cheeze grade hot rolled steel flat bars or sheet metal that you could cut up to what you need.

I'll say this too.  My tool  post is more outdated than yours, with a lot more degrees of freedom.  Lots of folks don't like either because it's too inconvenient or too difficult to operate compared to more modern solutions.  I think it's overblown in either case.  Very real, but overblown.  Practice, building a routine, and just using stuff, over time, and not even all that much time, makes it much faster and much easier to work with.  Every time you have a problem and find a solution, it sticks in your brain, and pretty quick your fingers just know what to do with progressively less and less thought, effort, ant time expended.


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## Hawkeye (Jul 8, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> Oww! That compound is painful to look at.


Yeah. I knew somebody would comment on that. I suspect that lathe used to reside in a highschool shop. No one machinist could possible do all that damage. Stu nailed it.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 9, 2022)

Hawkeye said:


> Yeah. I knew somebody would comment on that. I suspect that lathe used to reside in a highschool shop. No one machinist could possible do all that damage. Stu nailed it.


Not to mention an SB doesn't have the power to do that much damage in one whack.


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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 9, 2022)

Suppose I have enough budget to buy a QTCP with one or two holders, or a 3 jaw chuck with bolt on jaws (both cost me the same), which should I get first? Right now I only have a 4 jaw chuck.


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## stupoty (Jul 9, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> Suppose I have enough budget to buy a QTCP with one or two holders, or a 3 jaw chuck with bolt on jaws (both cost me the same), which should I get first? Right now I only have a 4 jaw chuck.



Get the three jaw chuck.

The 4 way tool holder is fine once you have figured out the shims for a tool and store them next to it.  Also if you use the same size HSS blanks the tip height of the tool doesn't change much.

3 jaw chuck gives you a quick way of holding stock for most jobs and will most likely speed stuff up more than a tool post.

If you get a quick change tool post you need all your basic / most used tools in holders and at least one spare to put a random not the every day tool in for that special moment.  If your swapping tools between holders it's going to become less of a speed benefit.

Mileage may vary , your own preference comes into play also.



Stu


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## Janderso (Jul 9, 2022)

Aukai said:


> 6.99 at Amazon, you could probably get good prices at the discount auto stores too.
> View attachment 412905


You beat me to it


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## Janderso (Jul 9, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> Oww! That compound is painful to look at.


Looks like it may have been in a high school


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## 7milesup (Jul 9, 2022)

Keep in mind guys that the OP lives in Taiwan.  He may have a hard time sourcing materials that we take for granted.


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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 9, 2022)

7milesup said:


> Keep in mind guys that the OP lives in Taiwan.  He may have a hard time sourcing materials that we take for granted.



I buy almost everything I use from Taobao because better to get it straight from the source. But it also limits my ability to get US made anything...


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## mmcmdl (Jul 9, 2022)

No QCTPs for sale in Taiwan ? Hard to believe , but maybe true . What size is the lathe and what size QCTP would it take , none of this was mentioned in the thread .


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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 9, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> No QCTPs for sale in Taiwan ? Hard to believe , but maybe true . What size is the lathe and what size QCTP would it take , none of this was mentioned in the thread .


It's a Victor 1630 lathe.

Problem is China doesn't use AXA/BXA/CXA size rating... it uses 100/200/300/400 size ratings so it takes me a while to decode what the size number means.

99% of the lathes I seen in Taiwan all use 4 way toolpost.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 9, 2022)

So you would be looking for a CXA or a 300 . Nothing over there ?


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## mmcmdl (Jul 9, 2022)

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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 9, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> So you would be looking for a CXA or a 300 . Nothing over there ?


Actually I would want a 400... mainly because all the 300s only have 19mm tool holders and my tool holders are all 20mm. 

Taiwan's auction/shopping listings are completely dominated by Chinese shills. Everything listed is from China except you pay a huge premium and you have to wait the weeks for it. I order it myself in that case.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 9, 2022)

So you know what you want . A 400 series or CA . 



taiwanluthiers said:


> Taiwan's auction/shopping listings are completely dominated by Chinese shills. Everything listed is from China except you pay a huge premium and you have to wait the weeks for it. I order it myself in that case.



Well , there is nothing different from there to here . Find a reputable dealer and buy that post and holders .


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## Jake M (Jul 9, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> Not to mention an SB doesn't have the power to do that much damage in one whack.


Sure.  Rub it in.  Thanks.


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## great white (Jul 9, 2022)

When I got my old atlas, it had a 4 jaw chuck on it and a busted original 3 jaw chuck. So I leaned to fix my work in a 4 jaw and now truing something up is a piece of cake.

Personally, I wouldn’t bother spending the dough on a 3 jaw if you’re just a hobbiest. Get proficient with your existing 4 jaw would be my recomendation.

 If I was doing repetitive or production work, a 3 jaw might make more sense in those cases.


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## homebrewed (Jul 9, 2022)

great white said:


> When I got my old atlas, it had a 4 jaw chuck on it and a busted original 3 jaw chuck. So I leaned to fix my work in a 4 jaw and now truing something up is a piece of cake.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn’t bother spending the dough on a 3 jaw if you’re just a hobbiest. Get proficient with your existing 4 jaw would be my recomendation.
> 
> If I was doing repetitive or production work, a 3 jaw might make more sense in those cases.


Making a second chuck key helped me become more proficient in dialing-in my 4 jaw.  It's easier if you can move opposing jaws at the same time.  However, I wish I had made mine with a longer shaft so the handle doesn't bump the dial indicator.  I suppose I need to make another one that's better suited.

That 4-jaw also may be able to pass larger-diameter stock through it, compared to a 3-jaw.  That's the case for mine anyway.


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## Jake M (Jul 9, 2022)

Before you get to the real post....  This got long.  Please don't take this as me being "that" concerned about what accessories you get for your lathe.  This is my thoughts on WHY i have the opinion that I do, and how I got to them. I find choices likes the one you posed to come up over and over again for me.  Either the "what can I afford" question, or the "what do I want to afford" question.  



taiwanluthiers said:


> 99% of the lathes I seen in Taiwan all use 4 way toolpost.



Let me toss out something, Point of view.  Attitude maybe.  Possibly bordering philosophy about owning and using tools.  Any tool, no matter how good, or how poor, is more than capable of doing something.  Any tool, no matter how good or how poor, is more then capable of doing good work, within it's limits.  Any tool, no matter how good or how poor, is more than capable of doing bad work, or no work at all when it's outside of it's limits.  It's up to the end user to know how to use the tool well, to know the tools limits, to know how to finess just a little bit more out of the tool, to operate the tool quickly and efficiently, and to learn to plan and execute work in a way that the tool will show it's best side, and not it's worst.  All of that takes practice.  It doesn't matter what tool post you have, you're gonna have to get familiar with it, and comfortable with it before you're going to be proficient with it.  And you're gonna have to go through some disappointment before you learn how to get it to work for you the way you'd like it to.

Now, you say that 99% of lathes in Taiwan all use a four way post?   What does that say about the dovetail type tool post that you're considering? Given their very low cost, and very high availability, given that their availibility comes from at least 6 nations that I have stumbled across...    IF there was a high demand for them...  Somebody would be bringing them in, and your dilema would be solved, and you could have whatever tool holder you wanted, in whatever color you wanted, in no time flat.

What your statement says to me,  is that 99.9 percent of lathe operators in Taiwan have come to be familiar with the operation and use of the four way tool post, and have not found it worth changing to a different style.  If I was in your shoes looking at your four way tool post, wondering what am I going to do from here....  (Again, my attitude and philosophy here,  when you start draging home commercial machine tools just for sport....  Normal logic might just not apply any more.)  Personally,  I wouldn't be blaming the tool post for being in my way or slowing me up.  I wouldn't be blaming the lathe.  I would be questioning myself, and what is it that I am not seeing, yet all of the lathe operators around me ARE seeing?  What am I not doing that the lathe operators around me ARE doing.  It's quite obvious, by your estimate of how many lathes you see with that four way tool post, and by my observation of how many local job shops here choose a four way tool post.  (Here, where "the internet" portrays us ALL as using one of two styles of quick change tool posts....).  I do visit a couple of such shops, several hydraulic shops, job shops, a fabrication shop.  You will find a couple of dovetail style quick change tool posts.  You'll also find that nobody in the same shop found it necessary to upgrade a second lathe to that.  Here, in "the real world", where commercial work is being done on manual machines, they ARE out there, but they're just not that popular.  Probably a lot more popular in a production shop, than a "one off" type of shop, but still.  Four way tool posts are not "unpopular" at all.  That means that have to work pretty well.

So in the end, it's your lathe, so regardless of functionality, you should have ANY toolpost that YOU LIKE installed on it, eventually.  For now though, going with your statement of budget constraints.  Don't look at your existing tool post as a hinderance, or even an inconvenience.  It's just another tool that you have to learn to use.   I promise you that when you do get the dovetail quick change tool post (now or in the future), you're just gonna have another learning curve, learning to make it work for you.  You WILL enjoy it, once you're familiar with it.  And in the end it will work for you.  I've got nothing bad to say about them.  I don't choose to use one, (although I have not ruled one out either, but it's not on the short list.)  My opinion is NOT because they don't work.  They do.   But they are not the magical thing you see on the internet.  Not because the tool post is or is not magic.  (They are not magic).  But because it's just another tool.  It will work for you because you will learn to make work for you, and it will ALWAYS need more improvement, in the form of new holders, to keep you from having to take out and reset every tool that you use anyway, just like you're doing right now.  All of this means that I don't believe that you are going to see the immediate gratification that you are looking for.  It'll be more like the beginning of a journey.  Every new cutter is gonna need a new holder.  Which in turn is going to need a new quick change holder to attach to the tool post.  Which drags out the tool budget over a VERY long span of time, to get to where you ware happy.  Because cutting tools are things you NEED if you're going to cut things, the quick change post (Especially early on) just leads to making the essential tooling more expensive.  You can and will get there, where you have everything you'll need, but like most things "more modern", each new thing you do means more stuff to buy.  The four way post?  One new tool, and a few minutes to cut some more shims out of the sheet of whatever metal you came up with to make shims out of, and that's that.

Buying a 3 jaw scroll chuck on the other hand-  That WILL give you an immediate gratification, right off the bat, because it's easy.  It WILL give you an IMMEDIATE time savings, as whatever you clamp in there is as centered as it's gonna get.  You've only got to check that it is straight in the jaws.  It WILL give you an IMMEDIATE reward on your investment.  And not the least of it's benefits is that it's one purchase and it's done.  There's nothing more you'll "need" to go with it.  There's nothing more you'll "need" to gain the functionality that you would expect from a 3 jaw scroll chuck.

So now that I've applied my tool philosiphy in general to your situation, and that's out of the way.....  A more practical reason perhaps.




taiwanluthiers said:


> Suppose I have enough budget to buy a QTCP with one or two holders, or a 3 jaw chuck with bolt on jaws (both cost me the same), which should I get first? Right now I only have a 4 jaw chuck.



If you bought a dovetail style quick change tool post with one or two holders, that leaves you two tool positions short of where you already are.  You have a new holder, at what sounds like (relatively speaking) a significant cost.  You're still having to swap tooling into and out of the quick change holders, dial them on center, all of that stuff.  Yes, you can "dial" it in that way, and not shim, but as I said, shimming does not need to be "worked out" every time.  Keep the shims with the tool.  So once and done.   That sounds like an expensive step backwards to live with one more extra "link in the chain" between your top slide and the spinning work.  And of course more tool holders are not "that" expensive.  (Way more than shims though).    So when you're (still) frustrated about changing tools back and forth, and having to set them up again and again, you're gonna get another holder.  And another.  And another.  And another......

And, in exchange for that temporary step backwards, you're still clocking in EVERYTHING you  turn on a four jaw chuck?  How convenient is that?  How much time does that take, relative to setting a tool's height?  You really (almost) need a four jaw chuck.  As you become comfortable with what it will do (AND it's limitations), that can do magic for you.  They're amazing.  But they burn up time and thought when setting up some of the weird stuff that you'll come across.  So while you'll never want to be without it, I'd bet that the absolute vast majority of your work could be tossed into 3 jaw scroll chuck.  With little thought and a little planning, lmost as much work could be tossed into an under priced, under spec'ed, non quality controlled 3 jaw scroll chuck with heaps of runout in it.  You do have a four jaw chuck already after all, so you do have a bailout for the times it doesn't work out.

In the end, that's my opinion.  From two very distinct directions, I think you should postpone any changes to the tool post, and consider the scroll chuck to be a higher priority.  

Now that I've said all of that, I have another thought.  The suggestions here in this thread, about build a Norman style tool post, along with some very inspiring pictures-  I don't know if that definitely idea is for you or not, but I would highly recommend that you consider it.  I did this originally to support a parting tool, which proved difficult for me in the lantern tool post.  Turns out, it's difficult either way, and as I built my skills get better with that, it makes less and less difference which method I use to present the tool.  I also made holders to support a couple of tools that I am not equipped to hold in the lantern post.  It is a few bucks up for some steel, but it's cheap steel (as steel goes), and it'll come in sizes that makes multiples, so there are spares if you scrap a part.  The whole project can be done 100 percent, start to finish, right on the lathe if you have a drill chuck for the tailstock, and you are equipped to part the work with a parting tool.  Or you could (I'd hate to, but you could..) cut the work with a hack saw and be just fine.  The drilling could, without much difficulty, be done with a hand held drill.  It's also low consequence, in that there is some tolerance.  If you hand drill your holes a little crooked, it'll still work fine.  If you hack saw a cut a little crooked, you can face it in the lathe and pretty it up.  Or you can leave it as it is, it'll work fine.  If you miss a bore by a couple thousandths, it might not lock as crisply as you'd like, but it WILL still lock solid. Heck, even if you bored the main hole a little crooked... I don't even know how that would be possible to do, but if you did...  You're going to use that bore to mount the holder to mill the slot, so  It's self correcting.. The tool will automatically be presented level.  If it's a little ugly...  It's fully functional to machine the next one.  No step is inherently difficult to learn (except maybe parting, if you end up separating metal that way, but you don't have to by any means).  It's a beautiful project though because there are a LOT of steps, a LOT of uncommon setups, and you will practice a LOT of ways to leverage your lathe, and your four way tool post to do a lot of things on a lathe that most people wouldn't even consider that a lathe could have done.  It is not the kind of project that's going to win you a prize, although a couple on this site have come close to that mark, but it is more like the kind of project that builds prize winning skills, and whether the end result is show piece quality, or just kind of ugly, it's still fully functional, useful, and enjoyable.  I know this because my tool holder with the crooked bore and the locking bolt on the wrong side works EVERY BIT AS GOOD as the ones I settled down and paid attention to, which came out much nicer cosmetically.  Food for thought if you're looking for a functional, useful excuse to become more familiar with the tools you have at hand.  In this, and anywhere you use tools, there is a certain satisfaction in turning out good work from raw materials.  And even more satisfaction in doing it with tools that you've made yourself from raw materials.


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## Dabbler (Jul 9, 2022)

Just to stir up the pot:  I have a chinese AXA on  my 12X37, a Dorian BXA on my 1440, and an Aloris BXA (brand new) on my 15X60.  I am now converting the 2 bigger machines to Dixon tool posts and getting rid of the Aloris/Dixon tool posts.  This is because of rigidity.  For the work *I* do, the Aloris and Dixon just aren't rigid enough.  I *could* try a CXA Aloris, but not at the cost.  I'll get every $ invested in the posts and holders, and make my own Dixon holders.

On my 12X37 and 14X40 I'll still use the 4-way regularly.  I use the lantern tool posts on each occasionally, especially when I'm cutting into a trick corner or making buttress threads.  I'll use the Dixon on my big lathes for all my heavy cutting and parting.

There is a WORLD of difference on using a Dixon 3 1/2 inch than using the same sized Aloris tool post.  I can take a .200 (radius) cut with the Dixon with no chatter (7.5 HP lathe).  I get barely .100 (radius) on the Aloris before chatter.  

The Aloris/Dixon are fine, but expensive, and I have to slow down my work with them.  Their future owners will be very happy with them.

*I'll still be using my 4-way tool posts for 70% of my work on all 3 lathes.  It is plenty fast enough on the changes, rigid for most operations, and quick to use (particularly with 3 or 4 tools loaded).*


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## mmcmdl (Jul 9, 2022)

Nothing wrong with the 4 ways other than not being the latest and greatest tool available . There are very easy ways to set tool height without the use of all these small shims etc once you know your C/L height . Takes minimal time , but when it's done it's done . Just talked to the member who bought my Clausing about it yesterday .


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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 10, 2022)

Actually, one grief I have with the 4 way tool post is the top handle keeps pointing the wrong way and I don't have a good way (apart from washers) to change  that at various settings of the compound. When the handle points the wrong way I have to take it off or else it will crash into the chuck.

Also why is it that no professional youtubers seem to use 4 way tool post? They all have fancy quick change tool post, like Abom for example have the multifix tool post affixed to his Victor and Monarch lathes, which makes an Aloris CXA tool post look cheap.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 10, 2022)

Oh c'mon ! Use your imagination . That is a simple fix , think about it awhile and report back .


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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 10, 2022)

I see a bearing under the cap nut thing, and it's missing a few balls in the bearing (it all came loose). I'm not sure what to do except to use washers of varying thickness, and the thing is the handle position changes with different orientation of the tool post depending on the angle of the compound. It would be easier if there was a nut I can put under the cap nut thing that I can turn to adjust where the handle is when locked. I don't think it's that simple though.


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## DAT510 (Jul 10, 2022)

Curtis of Cutting Edge Engineering uses a 4 way tool post.  He only recently decided to try/change to a QCTP.  But even the one he purchased is blend of a 4 Way and QCTP.  I’d call it a 4 Way QCTP.

Many of his videos show him using a 4 Way, here’s one for example.  He has pre-made shims so his tool changes are nearly as fast as a QCTP.






This is of his new Dorian 4 Way QCTP.


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## ClintNZ (Jul 10, 2022)

On the 4-way I made for my old Atlas 10 I had a shim bolted in on one side - this put my 12mm TCMT left & right hand tools on centre as they were both the same height. As suggested above my boring bar was always kept with it's correct shims. The other side of the 4 way was the right height to mount my Armstrong HSS tool holder where centre could just be tuned with tool bit stickout. This made things fairly convenient however I am loving the QCTP on my new 12" lathe especially given all the extra tooling I now have.

A very simple way to get your 20mm tooling all slotting in at the same level would be to fix a shim in one slot or raise the toolpost to set your 'lowest' cutter, then mill up the base of the others (within reason of course) to match.

Milling the base of the cutters could be easily done by turning them sideways in the toolpost & fixing a tool in the 4-jaw as a fly cutter. I'd do a test piece first as you want to be fairly accurate, a few tinfoil shims may be needed to set them dead square.

For your cap nut you could just get or make a hex nut & use a wrench, make a nut with a bunch of radial holes to fit a removable handle ...or chop off the handle leaving a stub then use a bit of pipe on it (my farmer genes speaking) 

Cheers
Clint


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## mickri (Jul 10, 2022)

Show us pictures of your 4 way with the handle in the different positions that you a talking about.


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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 10, 2022)

mickri said:


> Show us pictures of your 4 way with the handle in the different positions that you a talking about.


So I removed the washer and picture 1 shows where it is, but before I removed the washer it was in picture 2 location. The problem is that the position can change depending on how I set the compound, and when it's in the wrong position it can crash.

It looks like previous owners used the compound as an anvil...

Another thing I have trouble with a 4 way is that it seems boring bars have different level compared to normal tool bits, I don't know if this is by design but say a 20mm tool bit requires another mm of shim, a 20mm boring bar on the other hand requires nearly 12mm of shim to be up to the center level. Not sure why.


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## mickri (Jul 10, 2022)

Boring bars typically require different shimming because the tool bit is held in the center of the bar.  This is done so the bar can fit into smaller holes.

I used a 4 way before I made made my Norman QCTP.  And I still use it occasionally.   I set the compound at 29.5* because this is the setting for threading.  I do virtually all of my machining with the compound set at 29.5* except for parting when I would set the compound at 0*.  Your pictures show the compound at around 0*.  Setting the compound at 29.5* would move the handle away from the chuck with the washer in place.  I don't understand why you would ever need to remove the washer.  Even if you had the compound pointing directly at the chuck the handle would still be pointed away from the chuck with the washer in place.

I recall reading a post where a member who preferred using a 4 way would glue the shims to the bottom of the tool bit.  This way he didn't have to fiddle with shims when he changed tool bits.  All of his tool bits were shimmed to the correct height.

I noticed that you have luthiers in your forum name.  Do you make guitars or other types of stringed instruments?  Show us pictures of your guitars.  We would love to see them.


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## taiwanluthiers (Jul 10, 2022)

A guitar I'm working on, and a mandolin I'm doing neck angle adjustment on by gluing in a wedge under the fingerboard. The lathe and a mill I have is intended to support this operation.


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## David2011 (Jul 11, 2022)

The last lathe I owned had a four way and I disliked it very much for all of the same reasons as you enumerated.  I had it for 10 years.  The center post was screwed directly into the compound instead of using a tee nut so changing it would have required machining a tee slot into the compound.  I didn’t trust myself to do that so I lived with the four way.  When I got a different lathe I didn’t use it even for a test cut until I got a QCTP and mounted it.  I used a 13” South Bend for two years with a lantern toolpost and reall preferred it to the four way.


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## stupoty (Jul 11, 2022)

taiwanluthiers said:


> So I removed the washer and picture 1 shows where it is, but before I removed the washer it was in picture 2 location. The problem is that the position can change depending on how I set the compound, and when it's in the wrong position it can crash.
> 
> It looks like previous owners used the compound as an anvil...
> 
> Another thing I have trouble with a 4 way is that it seems boring bars have different level compared to normal tool bits, I don't know if this is by design but say a 20mm tool bit requires another mm of shim, a 20mm boring bar on the other hand requires nearly 12mm of shim to be up to the center level. Not sure why.



To change the position the clamp handle stops, change the thickness of the washer (or add a washer) under the clamp down lever.

Stu


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## epanzella (Jul 11, 2022)

On my old Logan I had a home made tool post that was essentially one position of a four position post. I got a plastic box with small compartments designed to hold fishing lures. Every time a made a shim for a tool I kept it with that tool and stored it in that box. Swapping tools was just a matter of grabbing the tool and it's dedicated shim.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 11, 2022)

For your height on different tools . Mill an aluminum block for each tool to bring it up to C/L . Pretty simple . Mill a slot into the block that the tool will fit into . Loc-tite it in you want . As far as the handle , take the one piece handle off and put a nut on it . Use a ratchet to tighten and loosen as you need . Take the ratchet off when done . This is really not a big issue here .


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