# What Does The Title Master Machinist Mean



## Ebel440 (Apr 15, 2015)

I've been a machinist for years but in a small company so there's no titles like Master, journeyman etc. I was talking to another machinist the other day and he made sure to point out he was a master machinist every chance he got.  So who decides when somebody's a "master machinist"? Is it a title just from a company or union?


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## Cactus Farmer (Apr 15, 2015)

It seems to me the people who brag the most are the less likely to be. I let my work speak as to my abilities.


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## w9jbc (Apr 15, 2015)

hmm ive been doing this for a long time wonder if I qualify? ive never been big on titles myself and I have managed to collect a few too though not that one


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## great white (Apr 15, 2015)

Meh, of all the trades I've worked in, there's journeyman and apprentice.

"Master" was often thrown around, but it was more a mark of respect to the experienced or gifted hands more than anything.

They do have "master" in auto techs these days, although its more a "specialty" than a "master" IMHO. For example: you can get things like Ford Powerstroke master mechanic "quals" these days. Which just means you've done a course on that particular piece of equipment and should know more about it than the average bear.

Master is a term that, IMHO is far overused these days. Much like "hero" is. Then there's words like "Hate",  "Love" and "Extreme".

I mean seriously; can you actually "love" a car or truck?

It's an object, not a person. You love a person, you like and object.

Just like we feel the need to suddenly "graduate" kids from kindergargen to grade one with ceremonies and all. Seems people just feel the need to celebrate mediocrity these days, I can't stand it! What have we become?

Anyways, I'm getting off on a bit of a rant so I'll stop there.


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## chips&more (Apr 15, 2015)

When I look at for example, the watches and clocks made before the 1930’s, there were “Masters”.  And they could be proud of it too! Today, try and find anybody to equal that talent! It would be a very, very small group of folks, indeed. Today, we have kids that Master at trying to dream up viruses to screw up our computers!...Good Luck, Dave.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 15, 2015)

In the European crafts guilds, the method of training was to apprentice to a master.  When the apprentice became skilled enough, he would oftentimes journey around the country where he would work for various other shops, build on his knowledge; hence the term journeyman.  When he became skilled enough, he would complete a masterpiece and if it was deemed acceptable, he would be come a master.  The masterpiece was a test that was used by the guildsmen to judge whether a person could be called a master and admitted to the guild.  As a master, an individual was free to go into business on his own.  A person could not self declare to be a master.

I believe that the practice is still in place with many of the union trades, with possibly the exception of presenting a masterpiece, but I never belonged to a union, so that would be hearsay on my part.

I had the privilege of seeing the masterpiece of a European blacksmith who immigrated to America as a young apprentice and followed this route to become a master.  The piece was located in the Pabst mansion in Milwaukee, Wis. and it was truly magnificent, exquisite in the fine detail and workmanship.


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## rafe (Apr 15, 2015)

Ask him how well he can bait a fish hook ! What is written above sheds light on the matter !


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## RJSakowski (Apr 15, 2015)

For anyone interested, the master blacksmith was Cyril Colnik.


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## tertiaryjim (Apr 15, 2015)

Could the term "Master" be from the old countries?
I have met a few that boasted they were masters, none were.
Have met some that I felt deserved such a rating but they were all rather humble.
" Don't tell me. Show me."


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## RJSakowski (Apr 15, 2015)

tertiaryjim said:


> Could the term "Master" be from the old countries?
> I have met a few that boasted they were masters, none were.
> Have met some that I felt deserved such a rating but they were all rather humble.
> " Don't tell me. Show me."


It is a title bestowed by craft guilds and originating in medieval Europe or before.  A person had to be a member of a guild in order to work at a particular craft or trade.  See post #6 above.


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## Billh50 (Apr 15, 2015)

I have never considered myself a master because no matter how long one is in this business they will always be learning. There are always new tooling and methods developed and things to learn.


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## aliva (Apr 15, 2015)

Here in Ontario in order to open your own electrical contracting company you must have a" master electricians license". which involves a different test that a journeyman electrician.
The same does not hold true to my knowledge, in any other trade. Years ago , a master mechanic, was usually the one in charge of several journeyman, a foreman or supervisor in todays
industry


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## RJSakowski (Apr 15, 2015)

Wisconsin still uses the term master plumber and master electrician.  It is my understanding that in Wisconsin, one has to have gone through an apprenticeship program in order to obtain licensing as a plumber, or an electrician.  
To be certified as a master plumber, one has to pas an exam and have worked as a licensed journeyman for at least 1000 hr/yr for three years. An accredited degree in mechanical, civil, or plumbing related engineering, respectively, is accepted in lieu.   To qualify for the journeyman license, one must have completed an approved apprenticeship program.   
To be certified as a master electrician, one has to pass an exam and have had at least 1000 hr/yr. for seven years although a semester of accredited study can be substituted for 500 hrs of work up to 3000 hrs.
Only licensed plumbers or electricians are permitted to work on installations other than their own residents without supervision by licensed plumbers or electricians.


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## John Hasler (Apr 15, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> Wisconsin still uses the term master plumber and master electrician.  It is my understanding that in Wisconsin, one has to have gone through an apprenticeship program in order to obtain licensing as a plumber, or an electrician.
> To be certified as a master plumber, one has to pas an exam and have worked as a licensed journeyman for at least 1000 hr/yr for three years. An accredited degree in mechanical, civil, or plumbing related engineering, respectively, is accepted in lieu.   To qualify for the journeyman license, one must have completed an approved apprenticeship program.
> To be certified as a master electrician, one has to pass an exam and have had at least 1000 hr/yr. for seven years although a semester of accredited study can be substituted for 500 hrs of work up to 3000 hrs.
> Only licensed plumbers or electricians are permitted to work on installations other than their own residents without supervision by licensed plumbers or electricians.


While the state of Wisconsin administers tests for electricians enforcement of license requirements is a local matter.  Here in Pierce county no license is required outside the towns.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 15, 2015)

John Hasler said:


> While the state of Wisconsin administers tests for electricians enforcement of license requirements is a local matter.  Here in Pierce county no license is required outside the towns.


Interesting, John!  

We used to have fairly lax oversight here in southwestern Wisconsin but they have tightened up considerably in the last few decades.  You can't put up a garden shed without a permit any more.

I got some of the information from the wi.gov website.  Sec. 101.682 of the Wis. Statutes  specifically states that licensing is required and 101.86 states that while local municipalities may enact their own ordinances , they may not be less restrictive than the state statutes.


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## Holescreek (Apr 15, 2015)

As a civilian machinist my grandfather's title at Wright Patterson Air force Base in 1964 was "Master Machinist" but I have never seen or heard it used anytime since. He was paid $1.65/hour but had a great title!


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## T Bredehoft (Apr 15, 2015)

My Journeyman, the person who was responsible for my apprenticeship, spent eight years in Germany getting his 'title.' Four years in a specialized school and four years, 'journeying' from factory to factory,  on a tour, six months in each shop, to be a 'journeyman' when he completed his tour. He never mentioned Master, but that could have been a personal thing. After 27 years, I was pretty good, but never considered myself a Master.


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## John Hasler (Apr 15, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> Interesting, John!
> 
> We used to have fairly lax oversight here in southwestern Wisconsin but they have tightened up considerably in the last few decades.  You can't put up a garden shed without a permit any more.
> 
> I got some of the information from the wi.gov website.  Sec. 101.682 of the Wis. Statutes  specifically states that licensing is required and 101.86 states that while local municipalities may enact their own ordinances , they may not be less restrictive than the state statutes.


But they are not required to enact such statutes.
[Edit] It appears that they recently revised the statute.  Lots of exceptions.  Looks like I'm grandfathered.


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## jererp (Apr 16, 2015)

At General Motors in the 1970's, there was a position titled 'Master Mechanic' which was a supervisory position above general forman and foreman under which all tool makers,  die makers, machinists and machine repair trades reported to. He was the highest ranking tradesman in the plant, which at that time employed 3500 people. So it was quite an achievement. He was the only tradesman in the plant that had the word Master associated with his title.


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## CluelessNewB (Apr 16, 2015)

Creative title inflation seems to be common.  My wife works with someone with a LinkedIn profile that indicates that he not only walks on water but also made the hydrogen and oxygen atoms after he discovered sub atomic particles.  In reality the guy is a worthless tool but he sure talks a good game.   Unfortunately "tooting your own horn" does seem to get people ahead, especially when clueless management is a product of the same device.


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## w9jbc (Apr 16, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> It is a title bestowed by craft guilds and originating in medieval Europe or before.  A person had to be a member of a guild in order to work at a particular craft or trade.  See post #6 above.


 
Perhaps it is like the old stone masons guilds of old where they had "Master Masons" those more skilled in the stonemasons trades


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## RJSakowski (Apr 16, 2015)

w9jbc said:


> Perhaps it is like the old stone masons guilds of old where they had "Master Masons" those more skilled in the stonemasons trades


It is interesting that the only official title of "master" appears to be in the state licensed trades.  I scoured the internet to see if there was a definition for "master machinist" and could not find a hard reference, even in Germany which has a very active apprenticeship program.  
It appears that in this country the title "master machinist" is bestowed by employers as an honorific, company specific job description or compensation level determinant, or possibly as a substitute for increased compensation.
In any case, in lieu of a hard description of the the qualifiers are for the title, I don't believe that it can be self declared.  On the other hand, if others choose to honor someone with the title......
Along a similar path, people are often granted honorary PhD's from institutions.  I have know individuals who used that title as if it were earned through a graduate study program which I feel is somewhat deceiving and diminishing the work of those who earned theirs the old fashioned way, but that is just my opinion.


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## w9jbc (Apr 16, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> It is interesting that the only official title of "master" appears to be in the state licensed trades.  I scoured the internet to see if there was a definition for "master machinist" and could not find a hard reference, even in Germany which has a very active apprenticeship program.
> It appears that in this country the title "master machinist" is bestowed by employers as an honorific, company specific job description or compensation level determinant, or possibly as a substitute for increased compensation.
> In any case, in lieu of a hard description of the the qualifiers are for the title, I don't believe that it can be self declared.  On the other hand, if others choose to honor someone with the title......
> Along a similar path, people are often granted honorary PhD's from institutions.  I have know individuals who used that title as if it were earned through a graduate study program which I feel is somewhat deceiving and diminishing the work of those who earned theirs the old fashioned way, but that is just my opinion.


 
 you wouldn't get any argument from me on this one, seem to be a lot of people tooting their own horns now days!


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## uncle harry (Apr 16, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> In the European crafts guilds, the method of training was to apprentice to a master.  When the apprentice became skilled enough, he would oftentimes journey around the country where he would work for various other shops, build on his knowledge; hence the term journeyman.  When he became skilled enough, he would complete a masterpiece and if it was deemed acceptable, he would be come a master.  The masterpiece was a test that was used by the guildsmen to judge whether a person could be called a master and admitted to the guild.  As a master, an individual was free to go into business on his own.  A person could not self declare to be a master.
> 
> I believe that the practice is still in place with many of the union trades, with possibly the exception of presenting a masterpiece, but I never belonged to a union, so that would be hearsay on my part.
> 
> I had the privilege of seeing the masterpiece of a European blacksmith who immigrated to America as a young apprentice and followed this route to become a master.  The piece was located in the Pabst mansion in Milwaukee, Wis. and it was truly magnificent, exquisite in the fine detail and workmanship.



I would assume that master blacksmith was Cyrl Colnick.  Much of his work can be seen in and around Milwaulee.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 16, 2015)

uncle harry said:


> I would assume that master blacksmith was Cyrl Colnick.  Much of his work can be seen in and around Milwaulee.


You are correct Harry.  

He was an amazing man, truly a national treasure.  I had the opportunity to see some of his work at the Pabst mansion as part of an Upper Midwest Blacksmiths Assn. group  some thirty five years ago.


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## uncle harry (Apr 16, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> You are correct Harry.
> 
> He was an amazing man, truly a national treasure.  I had the opportunity to see some of his work at the Pabst mansion as part of an Upper Midwest Blacksmiths Assn. group  some thirty five years ago.



Thanks. I "googled" him & found several images of his work.  The Villa Terrace, an east side Milwaukee Arts museum,was gifted many of his works by his daughter Gretchen Colnik (correct spelling).  His studio was located a short distance south of the Milwaukee Public Library. It was demolished in the 60's when the Marquette Interchange was built.
I visited it once before that as a student @ Layton School of art where I got a BFA degree in industrial design.  Thanks for reminding me about him. I'll have to visit the Villa Terrace & appreciate his fine work since I live some 20 miles away'


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## RJSakowski (Apr 16, 2015)

uncle harry said:


> Thanks. I "googled" him & found several images of his work.  The Villa Terrace, an east side Milwaukee Arts museum,was gifted many of his works by his daughter Gretchen Colnik (correct spelling).  His studio was located a short distance south of the Milwaukee Public Library. It was demolished in the 60's when the Marquette Interchange was built.
> I visited it once before that as a student @ Layton School of art where I got a BFA degree in industrial design.  Thanks for reminding me about him. I'll have to visit the Villa Terrace & appreciate his fine work since I live some 20 miles away'


At the time I saw his pieces at the Pabst mansion, his 1893 Columbian Exposition  masterpiece was part of the collection.  We were a small group on a private tour and we had the opportunity to examine it close up.  I believe that it currently in one of the museums in Milwaukee.  When you look at the detail, it is easy to understand why he has the title "master blacksmith"  The story that we were told was that he had made the masterpiece in his spare time while working as a journeyman for a large ironworks company in Chicago.


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## Grumpy Gator (Apr 16, 2015)

I'v followed this thread from the beginning and all I can add is this.
First I came to this trade later than most. My dad and his dad were carpenters.So thats what I was taught first .When I moved to the west coast of Florida I moved close to my Uncle {Mentor} Tucker. He took me under his wing and taught me how to machine. Now to say I got the striped down version just don't cover it. He just showed me what to do and threw me in there.Well the first thing I learned was to stop before I screwed up the part I had so much time into and ask questions .Then he would get up and come over and look at my set up and keep asking questions till he pried the right answer from me Then he would leave me alone and go back to what he was doing.
He taught me to trust my instincts and stop and question my self till I thought it threw.
Now as far as master machinist goes in my opinion any one who shares his knowledge and mentors another person in learning this knowledge is a master.
********Thats Just My Opinion*********
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
*******Gator****************************


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## Ulma Doctor (Apr 16, 2015)

the title of Master is given by another Master. 
otherwise, who could tell???
The title of Master is not given by oneself, not if it has any real meaning anyway.


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## lowlife (Apr 22, 2015)

I was an ASE Master Mechanic. (Whoopie no pay raise for achieving it, just a piece of paper that my employer could point to on the wall) FWIW I found some of the worst were "Master Mechanics" and some of the best mechanics didn't care diddly about any certification.


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## toolman (Apr 24, 2015)

I spent almost 20 years as an ASE Master Technician, which meant that I was really good at figuring out that Technician A and Technician B are both dumbarses and liars...


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