# PM1236 setup quesiton and pics of my first cuts



## Morgan RedHawk (Jul 20, 2014)

So I made my first chips with the 1236.  Wow..I really put my foot in it, didn't I?  This was the first time I have machined anything, and I'm afraid I'm hooked.

My first attempt wasn't the best but it was a start:





I came back inside, read a few things, changed speeds, and used a tool with a bit of a radius and did this:




Definitely better.  I have some stainless bars that I scrounged, so I decided to give it a try to see whats what:




That one came out pretty nice!  I must have gotten lucky :thinking:.

I have to say, watching that chip come off that stainless and across the face of the tool like a little stream of water was pretty cool.

I have a few questions about the setting up of this thing, I wanted to run past yall.  
I have an actual project that I want to do, so I decided quit just playing around and set this thing up the way it is supposed to be to make it accurate.  I have read a bunch of the leveling threads, and plan on doing the 2 collar method.

First, I decided to try to get as much twist out of the bed as I could with my level.  I am guessing that this is the right way to set this up.  I do understand why it does not need to be Earth level, but I am going by that as an easy to see standard.
I used a Starrett 98-8 level, 2 parallels (checked with a micrometer to make sure they were accurate), and used the flats of the ways.  I cleaned all surfaces with napthalene, and when I changed to the tail end of the bed, I put the parallels in the same position relative to each other that I had used at the headstock end.  Also, I made sure the parallels only sat on the ground surfaces of the ways.  I seem to remember reading that the machinist levels have a slight bow in them, hence they way I placed it on the parallels.  Here is what I did:




and this was the reading:




I then repeated the set up at the tail end.  




I had to add a feeler gauge leaf of 0.004" to get this reading.




At first, I attempted to adjust the leveling feet to correct this error...the problem is, the base of the lathe is made from 3/16" thick 2x2 square, and the lathe is not heavy enough to flex it.  I can adjust one of the tailstock end's leveling feet enough that the other one (rear) will come off the ground and the bubble will not move.

So in order to get the twist out, I am guessing I am going to have to shim it?  If so, where would I put the shims?  Under the base or under the tailstock foot?

When I put the thing together, I did the recommended smearing of silicone around the holes between the chip pan, the base, and the lathe's tailstock foot.  I tightened everything down good, but I am wondering if that will cause any problems with the alignment.

What do you yall think I should do, or do I need to do anything with that amount of error over the whole length of the bed?  

Thanks for any advice yall can offer!

Morgan


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 20, 2014)

While RayC is typing his usual long post with accurate instructions about how to twist your lathe, I congratulate with you for the good work you made.
Just a suggestion: avoid flip-flops while turning, chips are pretty hot and usually tend to drop down on the floor :biggrin:


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## Morgan RedHawk (Jul 20, 2014)

Marco Bernardini said:


> While RayC is typing his usual long post with accurate instructions about how to twist your lathe, I congratulate with you for the good work you made.
> Just a suggestion: avoid flip-flops while turning, chips are pretty hot and usually tend to drop down on the floor :biggrin:



Lol! The flip-flops are just for picher-takin!


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## chuckorlando (Jul 20, 2014)

Looks pretty good for first time to me. The second one just looks pretty good. I cant help much on the shims. But I will add that you should calibrate that level if you have not. It dont take much to throw off a machine level. At least flip it around 180 to see if it reads the same .


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## Ray C (Jul 20, 2014)

Looking good...  I hope you have the setup guideline from post 13 of this thread:  http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=14005&highlight=1236+FAQ

So, what do you do now?  Nothing -until you do the two-collar test and see how far things are off.  After that, the commonly available articles about that testing technique tell you which end to shim given different circumstances.

When doing the test, I recommend using a bar of aluminum at least 1.5" diameter (preferably larger).


Ray


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## Ray C (Jul 20, 2014)

BTW:  Before you do the two-collar technique, just use the lathe for a few days and get comfortable with the controls.  Nobody is timing you on how fast you set it up.  Try-out some different feeds, speed and DoC's.  Spend some time and learn the machine.  When it comes time to do the 2-collar test, you will be more confident that you're making the test cuts properly.

Also, really watch your safety habits.  -Now is not the time to play games.

Goggles.
No long sleeves or loose clothing.
No wiping swarf with your fingers.
Keep hands away from anything that rotates.
Engage safety switch when messing with the side gears.
No gloves.

-And get some tweezers to pull the splinters from between your toes.


Ray


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## Morgan RedHawk (Jul 20, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Looking good...  I hope you have the setup guideline from post 13 of this thread:  http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=14005&highlight=1236+FAQ
> 
> So, what do you do now?  Nothing -until you do the two-collar test and see how far things are off.  After that, the commonly available articles about that testing technique tell you which end to shim given different circumstances.
> 
> ...



Yessir, read that, and did all the break in procedures, testing and oiling.  Everything with the machine seems just fine.

I have a 22" bar of 1.5" cold rolled annealed and some 3" aluminum that I was thinking about doing the 2 collar test with. Any issues with mixing the metals for something like this?  I was going to do the loctite method on the collars.  If not, I can get an aluminum bar this week.

When I do the test, how will I know what is caused by the bed twist and what might be caused by the tailstock not being aligned?

Thanks for the help!


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## Ray C (Jul 20, 2014)

Morgan RedHawk said:


> Yessir, read that, and did all the break in procedures, testing and oiling.  Everything with the machine seems just fine.
> 
> I have a 22" bar of 1.5" cold rolled annealed and some 3" aluminum that I was thinking about doing the 2 collar test with. Any issues with mixing the metals for something like this?  I was going to do the loctite method on the collars.  If not, I can get an aluminum bar this week.
> 
> ...




Read-up on the two-collar test.... you don't use the TS for that.

Sometimes, using 1.5" CR with AL collars causes vibration/chatter problems.  Try it and find-out.  Just use a thicker solid bar if you have troubles with vibration.   Keep the bar short -like about 8" long protrusion.  Only take off 1/2 to 1 thou off the collars.  -Light cut, slow feed, moderate RPM. 

When you get it shimmed so it's cutting within 0.00025" between collars, quit.  Check again in a week then forget about it until the next time you have a part that calls for high precision.  Occasional tweaking is needed.  Your garage floor expands/contracts enough to change things...


Ray


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## Bill C. (Jul 20, 2014)

Morgan RedHawk said:


> So I made my first chips with the 1236.  Wow..I really put my foot in it, didn't I?  This was the first time I have machined anything, and I'm afraid I'm hooked.
> 
> My first attempt wasn't the best but it was a start:
> 
> ...



I think the bubble has a slight curve not the base. It has been to many years since i used one.

Your turnings look good to me.  I usually set the lathes, I used, to cut a fine feed. A little rounded nose on the tool bit helps.   Also use a smooth file to knock down any sharp edges. Nice JOB.


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## Gigs (Jul 21, 2014)

Ray C said:


> -And get some tweezers to pull the splinters from between your toes.
> Ray



Turning tool steel hot and fast always gets me.  Produces those crunchies that break to form tiny splinters that love to get into your fingers.  You'll look like you got into a tool steel cactus if you aren't careful.


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 21, 2014)

What about these?





:biggrin:


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## zmotorsports (Jul 21, 2014)

Congrats on the new machine and thanks for sharing the pictures of your progress with us.

It is a great sense of accomplishment when you see a progression of your abilities and see immediately a difference when trying various settings and/or techniques.

I am 100% self taught and I will admit as well, when you first get making chips it is a fantastic feeling.  The parts start coming out better and better with more and more practice.  Both trying new techniques based on experience and/or common sense as well as trying things that you have read about will continually net improved results.

Machining is definitely a never ending learning experience which is one of the things I love about it.

Mike.


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## Morgan RedHawk (Jul 21, 2014)

Dammit, I knew I should have cropped my feet out of that photo.
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 Actually they weren't flip flops, they were..uh...I..uh..painted them on my boots so I wouldn't look weird when I wear em at the beach..yeah.

Seriously though, I actually did not run the machine at all yesterday.  I was busy doing homework (physics, so it was actually pretty fun), and went out to re-set up the level like a did a few days before so I could take some pics to post.  My working-in-the-shop attire consists of:  Steel toed leather boots, blue jeans, a tshirt that fits properly and is tucked in, no jewelery (never wear any, anyway), full face shield and glasses (Uvex, do like!), and hearing protection...and definitely no gloves!

I would never wear flip flops when working in the shop.

I think I see the source of my confusion about the 2 collar test.  I have only seen the 2 collar test to align the tailstock by turning between centers.  I did not know the same test should be performed with just a chuck in order to detect spindle to bed alignment.

It makes a lot more sense now.

I have that 6" piece of 3" dia aluminum round that I had gotten to practice with.  Is it long enough or should I get one that will stick out 8" past the chuck jaws?  Maybe I should get another bar anyway..it will give me an excuse to root through my supplier's scrap bins again.

It will probably be this weekend before I can get back to it.  The Mrs has classes in the afternoon, and I promised her I would not use any power tools when I am here by myself.

I want to thank yall for the compliments on my turnings.  I would have had a difficult time getting this far without yall's help and this site. All yall have helped me a lot more than yall probably realize and I really appreciate it!


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## Ray C (Jul 21, 2014)

Morgan RedHawk said:


> Dammit, I knew I should have cropped my feet out of that photo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hey there Morgan...

The 6" piece will be a fine start.  You need something that approximates these dimensions -that is, stubby.  If you use a thin shaft, it bends under pressure and is more likely to chatter like crazy.  Ideally, you'd try to get about 6-7" between the two rings -and of course, enough material on the lead section for the vise to grip properly.  It makes no difference if your vise doesn't hold things straight.  Make passes until it cuts all the way around on both rings.

As a lead-up to this, you might try the "Rollie" method first.  It will get you in the ballpark before doing the 2-Collar test.







You promised your wife what????  Ok, maybe for a little while but see if you can get an attorney and re-negotiate that one.


Ray


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 21, 2014)

Morgan RedHawk said:


> It will probably be this weekend before I can get back to it.  The Mrs has classes in the afternoon, and I promised her I would not use any power tools when I am here by myself.



Power tools are to make power: your tools are to make chips :biggrin:
Maybe your wife would be happier if you spend your afternoons playing with your lathe rather than talking with the blonde girl at the drugstore… 
Suggest her you'll install a webcam into your shop, so she can take an eye on what you're doing (and she can call the 911 if someone try to steal the lathe while you are at the drugstore).


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## Morgan RedHawk (Jul 27, 2014)

Marco, you trying to get me killed?  If I was talking to some blonde at the drugstore, frankly it would be much safer for me to put on some big fuzzy mittens and go play with my lathe....in traffic!  

I just could not leave well enough alone during the week, and decided to play around with some shimming and the level to see what would happen.  I took apart a feeler gauge and took turns loosening the stand bolts, inserting a leaf or 2 between the stand and the base, tightening the bolts and checking the level again.  I put the shims right by the bolts that secure the stand to the base.  I did this several times until I got the level reading pretty close to the same on both ends of the bed.  (not exactly the same, because it was damn hot and I gave up after about an hour).

Yesterday, per yall's suggestions, I did the Rollie's Dad's Method with a 2" dia Al bar 12" long and the collars about 9.5" apart.  When I made my test cuts, I used the slowest RPM and the finest feed available.  I cut the collars with 0.002" and then 0.001" and finally a skim cut (or whatever its called when you dont advance the tool in order to correct for flexing).  I measured with my cheap HFT dial indicator mounted in my tool post, a Chinese DTI on one of those snake like flexible stands attached to my cross slide, and also with an American dial indicator (from a company called Standard Gage Co. out of NY) that a retired machinist gave me.  It is old, but seems nice and smooth in operation.  I read the indicators as best I could, and maybe I should not have, but if the needle fell between 2 marks, I used figures based on which quarter the needle was in (I added a 0.00025 if it was in the first quarter past a mark, 0.0005 if it was close to halfway between, etc).

According to my readings and calculations:
HFT says the difference in collars is 0.00122"
Standard says 0.00015"
Chinese DTI says 0.0011"

I decided to repeat the measurements with the Standard just to see what I got.  I read the dial very carefully, tried to rotate my spindle as smoothly as possible and the new measurements came out to exactly what I got the first time.

The machine seems pretty dang close, or I am doing it wrong.  I want to go out do the 2 collar test, but it is 100 deg today (that 38 deg for Marco) so it may have to wait until tonight.

What do yall think?  Im I doing it wrong? Is that close enough or should I keep going?  I can post some pics if yall need to see the setup.  Thanks for the help!


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## Morgan RedHawk (Jul 27, 2014)

I just wanted to add that this whole process is pretty dang fun and very educational.


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 27, 2014)

Morgan RedHawk said:


> Marco, you trying to get me killed?  If I was talking to some blonde at the drugstore, frankly it would be much safer for me to put on some big fuzzy mittens and go play with my lathe....in traffic!



May I suggest you to use a uniform instead?
Maybe like that of the Greek Evzones officials:




(OSHA rules must be pretty relaxed, in Greece…)


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 27, 2014)

I'm not particularly up on seeing up lathes, but I would have thought that a micrometer in the right range would give you the most accurate reading, independent of anything going on with you apron/ cross slide. Sounds like you got it dialed in nicely though!


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## GK1918 (Jul 27, 2014)

guess I'm in trouble ( but not)  after the floor was poured the lathes were plunked there  that was 48 yrs ago  they work 5 days a week.  No levels I'm   saying , these machines are heavy big boys. so  I'm just a sayin  


samuel


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## Ray C (Jul 27, 2014)

On that one measurement, did you mean 0.0015 or 0.00015?

Anyhow, it seems like you're on the right track but, some pictures of what you're doing would help us know for sure...


Ray


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## Morgan RedHawk (Jul 27, 2014)

I dunno Marco, I just cant decide between the white skirt and the white boots...If I were to wear both together, I might look silly...

Ray, that was 0.00015 (zero point triple zero one five)...which is why I did it twice.  
Here are the readings and calculations if you want to check my math:


Tailstock CollarHeadstock CollarCollar diameter1.97421.97251/2 collar diameter0.98710.98625High reading0.01150.0075Low reading0.00400.0060Average0.007750.00675Corrected Avg (Avg - 1/2 collar dia)-0.97935-0.9795

<tbody>

</tbody>
the difference between the corrected averages is 0.00015 which is why I was surprised and figured I must have done something wrong and did the measurements and calculations again, coming up with the same final result.

For reference, when I first machined the bar and made the collars I used the steady rest to face and center drill.  Next I put the bar on the live center without disturbing the end in the chuck.  I machined the bar and collar locations and then removed the tailstock.  Next, I set the machine to the slowest speed and the finest feed.  I machined the collars down without moving the cross slide until I was getting a cut all the way around both (I have some runout issues to deal with, but that will be for another day).  It took quite a few passes of 0.002" each until I was getting a steady "shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" on both collars.  Once I was sure the tool was contacting the entire circumference of both collars, I started the test cuts.  According to the RDM instructions, if you suspect the diameter of the bar does not have a consistent diameter, you are supposed to correct it.  I figured the tailstock was out of alignment, so I checked the diameters of both collars with a mic, and figured them into my calculations.  The first time I calculated it, I used the proper significant figures for the accuracy of my measuring tools, and came up with an difference of 0.000.  That is why I decided to read between the lines (on the indicator) to see what I got.

I will take some pics tomorrow and upload them so yall can see my setup.


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## Ray C (Jul 27, 2014)

Morgan RedHawk said:


> I dunno Marco, I just cant decide between the white skirt and the white boots...If I were to wear both together, I might look silly...
> 
> Ray, that was 0.00015 (zero point triple zero one five)...which is why I did it twice.
> Here are the readings and calculations if you want to check my math:
> ...



You must have spent all darn day messing with that...  Good, that's what it takes.

Those are pretty good numbers -but the proof is in the pudding.  You'll get very close to knowing how it cuts when you do the stand-alone 2 collar test -and even that has it's frailties because nobody in their right mind will ever do a production cut that way.  It is a good test though.  Spin a shaft between centers (once the TS is adjusted properly) and THEN you will know.  -Don't worry, it will be fine and you'll get good results.  Just make sure you use a shaft big enough in diameter so it doesn't flex under cutting pressure.

Here's a secret... For 99.9% of anything you do, you won't need a shaft any better than +/- 1/2 thou over 12".  The "only" times you need to worry about tenths is if you're cutting a bearing bed on a shaft -and that is rarely ever longer than 1.25".

Do the job right but don't get obsessive about "perfection" because that gets in the way of actually finishing something.  It's all about error-stack up. 

Ray


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