# Can a lathe really build itself?



## Aaron_W (Feb 15, 2018)

I frequently see it stated that a lathe is the only tool that can build itself.

While I can certainly see how I could build a very rudimentary lathe using a lathe but it seems far fetched that I could really duplicate the exact machine I have. 


I obviously don't have the skills to do it, but could a very skilled machinist really duplicate an identical lathe using nothing but their lathe?


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 15, 2018)

What is meant by that is it does not need all its parts to function. You can usually make the new part needed on the same machine that is broken.

"Billy G"


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## Manderioli (Feb 15, 2018)

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/lathe-myth.26337/

More info in the thread


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## projectnut (Feb 15, 2018)

I've made a number of replacement parts for my Seneca Falls Star #20 machine when I realized the originals were nearing the end of life. Unfortunately I didn't realize just how bad the cross slide feed screw and nut were.  They failed (actually fell off the machine) before I realized how bad they were.   Apparently long before I owned the machine my wife's grandfather had made a "temporary" emergency repair.  The repair was substantial enough that the machine worked another 20 years before it finally failed.  This time there was no repairing it.  I had to use another machine to make a new nut and screw.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 15, 2018)

Yes , it could , and a mill can make a mill ( with a 4rth axis ) . Would I want to do it , no .


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## markba633csi (Feb 15, 2018)

I think what is meant is that all the basic machining operations required (turning, facing, milling, drilling, threading) can be performed, but the machine can't duplicate itself exactly. Perhaps you could make a tiny replica though..
Mark


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 15, 2018)

Old School -- it can repair itself.

 "Billy G"


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## jwmay (Feb 15, 2018)

its True. The way to avoid it though is to never feed it after midnight, or get it wet. I made that mistake one time. Never again.


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## Mitch Alsup (Feb 15, 2018)

In any kind of realistic reality, it takes both a lathe and a mill to reproduce an lathe and mill.

The lathe makes the round parts, the mill makes the flat parts.


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## 4GSR (Feb 15, 2018)

In the old Audels Machinists book, in the first page or two, is a picture of an old cone head lathe.  I believe it says something like "The King of Machine Tools".


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## benmychree (Feb 15, 2018)

maybe it can, but it would take a lot of help from such as planers and milling machines and drill presses.


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## kd4gij (Feb 15, 2018)

You can put a milling attachment on a lathe and mill any thing you can do on a mill.


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## jwmay (Feb 15, 2018)

Ok fine. A lathe also doesn’t make cast iron. So you’ll need patterns, and casting sand, and a really big fire....flasks, chains hoists...and all manner of other equipment and expertise just to have the unmachined parts to begin with. Of which I’m fairly clueless, as anyone with actual knowledge would know from just what I’ve said so far. But a lathe, with excellent operator at the handwheels could definitely make a serviceable version of just about any single component of which it is comprised. Try that with your hammer. Although, I bet you could make a hammer with a hammer...so maybe a lathes not so special after all. I’m keeping mine though.


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## benmychree (Feb 15, 2018)

kd4gij said:


> You can put a milling attachment on a lathe and mill any thing you can do on a mill.


show me how you can machine the lathe ways on a lathe---


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## Aaron_W (Feb 15, 2018)

Ok, so theoretically possible but not practical. I can definitely see the repair itself part assuming the roundy, round bits are the most likely to quit working.

I was watching a video and heard that comment made for like the millionth time, and was wondering how true it was.


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## Tony Pisano (Feb 15, 2018)

I grew some broom corn a while back. Last week I stripped the seeds, sewed the stalks together, tied and wired them around a willow stick, trimmed the bristles, then used the broom to sweep up the mess I made making the broom. Not exactly building a lathe with a lathe, but worth noting?


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## whitmore (Feb 16, 2018)

projectnut said:


> ... I didn't realize just how bad the cross slide feed screw and nut were.  They failed (actually fell off the machine) before I realized how bad they were.... there was no repairing it.  I had to use another machine to make a new nut and screw.



One could tighten the gibs to lock the cross slide.  With the compound still working,
you could make two screws, and sharpen one into a tap...

Painful, yes, but not impossible.


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## BROCKWOOD (Feb 16, 2018)

What is a lathe but a motor with a bed & a couple of screws to maneuver a cutter.
What is a mill but a motor with a table & a few screws to maneuver a part. In so attempting to make a lathe or mill with either machine, I would at least also require a significant hoist to maneuver large pieces of steel plate & rod. Oh & a knife to cut gaskets. & that's all I need. & a grinder to sharpen bits. & that's all I need. LOL


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 16, 2018)

WOW -- You guts really took the old saying apart. It was never Gospel gentleman. It is just an saying on the potential of the machine.

"Billy G"


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## uncle harry (Feb 16, 2018)

benmychree said:


> show me how you can machine the lathe ways on a lathe---



I have a Unimat "toy" lathe that has round rod ways.


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## BROCKWOOD (Feb 16, 2018)

I tried to be funny with my response. Perhaps the old movie "The Jerk" is forgotten by now??? But, yeah, why not entertain the possibilities? I thought that was the jest of the question &, just as many of the responders before me, pictured viable solutions. It's kinda like the question, "What would you do alone on a deserted island"? Identify resources is job 1 in all situations is it not? But to get to the root of "The Potential of the Machine": It is extremely limited to the imagination & determination of the operator.


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## danny12 (Feb 16, 2018)

http://gingerybooks.com

I'd say it can


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## Mitch Alsup (Feb 16, 2018)

jwmay said:


> Ok fine. A lathe also doesn’t make cast iron. So you’ll need patterns, and casting sand, and a really big fire....flasks, chains hoists...and all manner of other equipment and expertise just to have the unmachined parts to begin with. Of which I’m fairly clueless, as anyone with actual knowledge would know from just what I’ve said so far. But a lathe, with excellent operator at the handwheels could definitely make a serviceable version of just about any single component of which it is comprised.



How does one machine the ways of the lathe on a lathe?
How does one machine the saddle of the lathe on a lathe?
How does one machine the cross slide of the lathe on a lathe?


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## Aaron_W (Feb 16, 2018)

BROCKWOOD said:


> I tried to be funny with my response. Perhaps the old movie "The Jerk" is forgotten by now???



I was wondering if that was where you were going. Great movie.


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 16, 2018)

I am somebody, I'm in the phone book.

 "Billy G"


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## jwmay (Feb 16, 2018)

Mitch Alsup said:


> How does one machine the ways of the lathe on a lathe?
> How does one machine the saddle of the lathe on a lathe?
> How does one machine the cross slide of the lathe on a lathe?


 
Are you seriously asking me? I said it could make a “serviceable version of JUST ABOUT any single component”. I didn’t say every component. 

Anyhow, you’re asking the wrong guy. I’m as green as fresh pasture. Sometimes, if I’m very lucky, I make a tee nut without screwing it up. I’m only on this forum to learn, and sometimes I make moderately successful jokes, and Tee nuts... Also only moderately successful.

Where’s that guy that keeps trying to bring us to our senses on this topic at? I’m drowning here.


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 16, 2018)

OK, everyone step back from your computers. Let's bring this back to the single question of repair. Yes the lathe has its limitations. The saying was made many years ago. It is outdated for sure, but is still quoted to this day. This fact will never change. Bottom line, there is no wrong answer for this thread. It all boils down to individual thinking. Keep it in the context , this is your opinion. Do not try to force that opinion onto anyone else, Kapeesh?

 "Billy G"


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## higgite (Feb 16, 2018)

I turned my lathe on, told it to duplicate itself and stood back and waited. I'm beginning to agree with Bill that maybe the phrase is taken too literally. It's been running for 25 hours now and no progress. But, the power company loves me.

Tom


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## Bill Gruby (Feb 16, 2018)

At last, some humor. ROTFLMBO

 "Billy G"


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## Terrywerm (Feb 16, 2018)

My lathe is inept. It cannot make itself. But my copying machine on the other hand, can crank out pictures of itself or of my lathe by the hundreds!


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## mikey (Feb 16, 2018)

Remember the lathe they built in a POW camp back in WW2? Made on a lathe and a lot of hand tools:
http://machineshop.olin.edu/resources/documents/Prison Camp Lathe.pdf


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## Superburban (Feb 16, 2018)

Just listen to the first minute. Sounds like a good myth for a mythbuster to bust.


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## yendor (Feb 16, 2018)

Google Gingery lathe.

or go to the link below.
http://www.homemadetools.net/homemade-gingery-style-lathe

David Gingery has done some amazing things with almost nothing.
He has a book that details how to build a working metal lathe from scratch. with NOT Machine tools.
Only basic wood working tools to create a working metal lathe.
With that simple machine much more accurate and advanced models can be created.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 16, 2018)

mikey said:


> Remember the lathe they built in a POW camp back in WW2? Made on a lathe and a lot of hand tools:
> http://machineshop.olin.edu/resources/documents/Prison Camp Lathe.pdf



Wow, that is very interesting reading. The size makes it quite similar to many of the current hobby lathes, I wonder if it was an influence on any of them.




Superburban said:


> Just listen to the first minute. Sounds like a good myth for a mythbuster to bust.




Amusingly that is actually the video that prompted me to ask the question. That Tested series covers some interesting projects.


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## RJSakowski (Feb 16, 2018)

jwmay said:


> Try that with your hammer. Although, I bet you could make a hammer with a hammer...so maybe a lathes not so special after all. I’m keeping mine though.


 I have made several hammers using a hammer.  A punch is needed to punch the eye of the hammer but I made the punch using a hammer.  A knife or other cutting tool would be needed for making the hammer handle but that can be made with a hammer as well.  You need a forge to heat the metal to a working temperature and the harden and temper.  In a bind, a workable charcoal forge could be made using stacked rocks and/or dried mud with someone to fan the flames to raise the temperature high enough.  An anvil of some sort would be helpful
If you were starting over from nothing and were looking for the one tool that would bootstrap you back to some semblance of order, it would probably be the hammer.


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## jwmay (Feb 16, 2018)

@ RJSakowski : I’ve made a brake drum forge, and have a fairly minimal setup for smithing myself. That’s kinda why I offered the bet. I only bet on sure things. Please see my previous posts regarding my moderately successful jokes. 

Struggling with a coal fire in a tiny homemade forge and spending hours beating metal into rudimentary shapes is actually what brought me to machining. I judged that hobby as “too much like work” to learn any more than you can learn out of 50lbs. of coal. Although, one of my fondest memories is running my little forge, while both kids did the hammering between heats. I’ll keep the hook we made as long as I live.


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## Ray C (Feb 16, 2018)

For a lathe to make all it's own parts... Hmmmm.   Not sure if that's moral and possibly not legal in all 50 states.


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## savarin (Feb 17, 2018)

I've made one Gingery lathe from scratch. The only power tool used was a drill press but a hand drill could have sufficed.
I made it with and for a friend who used it rather extensively.
It does work but has pretty severe limitations as to doc etc.
Definitely not a precision machine from todays standards BUT, it does work and turn stuff to size.
Reading the Gingery book will show you how to make simple jigs to make other parts for it.
Very clever in my humble opinion.


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## RollingPin (Feb 17, 2018)

I suspect the Gingery lathe could be used to make a second more precise lathe and the second one used to make a third and on and on. That’s how tools evolve.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Silverbullet (Feb 17, 2018)

Remember the only limitations are in the one doing the building . The machinist can do anything given the time and supplies . The old LATHES were made to do line boring and so much more. Now there purpose built and yes I'm quite sure if you really had the materials it's possible to do . Like the gingery  tools. Many years ago a man with hand tools built a beautiful working shaper from scraps ,, if I remember correct ,, from working in the ship yards. It was and is if you can find the story and pictures a beautiful showing of workmanship. YUPP my opinion and I'm sticking too it.


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## 4GSR (Feb 17, 2018)

Very early lathes had wooden beds on them.  So were the planers that machined cast iron beds way back in ages. And as machines improved, they got away from wooden components and more cast iron was used.  Then man started scraping and fitting cast iron pieces to improve accuracy.  Cast iron bearings were replaced with bronze bearings.  Later with ball and roller bearings, and so on.  Then some idiot decided to put a computer in control of operations of a machine.  Wonder what is going to be next! 3-D printing?


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## ericc (Feb 20, 2018)

Everybody who restores an old lathe on a budget feels the transition point where the lathe is capable enough to start making its own parts.  It cannot really do that, but if you squint your eyes really hard, and the night is moonless, you can actually see the lathe rebuilding itself.  For example, my Sough Bend lathe came without a chuck.  There would be almost nothing it could do at this point.  It isn't really a lathe.  I used a blacksmith technique to make some temporary threads by laying out slanted lines on a plate, then rolling it together to make a ring.  I then chased the "thread" on a little Craftsman 109 lathe.  Finally, I used a curved thread wire and bluing to find the high spots in the thread and grind them out with a Dremel cutoff wheel.  Finally, it threaded on, but it was weak.  It was good enough, however to make a couple of tapers to put in the tailstock and mount a drill chuck.  Great, the lathe can now drill and turn between centers!  The library was kind enough to print me two 32 tooth gears so I could thread 8 tpi.  This was used to make a threaded plug.  There was nothing to test the plug on, so I measured it with the three wire method.  After it was threaded, I removed the temporary chuck back plate and threaded it on the plug with the two hand cut threads.  I then heated it with a propane torch and stuffed some cut up pieces of a HDPE milk bottle in to melt.  This formed a few plastic threads, and the chuck back plate was now strong.  I was able remount (with a 4 jaw chuck).  Somewhere in the middle of all this, I felt like the lathe had turned the corner and started making its own parts.

Did it really make its own parts?  No.  And it has a broken back gear, probably by setting it in gear and attempting to remove the chuck by a previous owner.  Can the lathe fix the back gear?  No, not really.  That really requires a torch or a welder.  Maybe a welder.  But that's another story.  Didn't somebody once say that a mill is required to repair a lathe?  But, sort of.  Anyway, you kind of get that feeling.  You do, huh?  No?  Well then, maybe you haven't been there.  Another plus for old iron: the "interesting" experiences.


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