# Bar whip in a lathe



## vtcnc (Jan 23, 2019)

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## westerner (Jan 23, 2019)

Thank you! Good example of how a simple job can get out of hand. Recognizing the potential for danger, and the appropriate measures to take before hand, is one of many things that separates the apprentice from the journeyman.


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## benmychree (Jan 23, 2019)

I had that happen once with a 3/4" copper bar, it didn't tear anyone's tool box or hurt anyone, but did a bit of damage to the lathe guards.


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## RJSakowski (Jan 23, 2019)

That lathe was dancing! That was wrong on so many levels. Fortunately, no one got hurt.


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## vtcnc (Jan 24, 2019)

My understanding after talking with people at OSHA is that this happens more often then people think. nobody was hurt, which means it likely wasn’t reported.

I have a couple of unsubstantiated opinions about what I see here...so, food for thought.

1) The only thing you can see wrong in this setup is a simple roller stand and absence of substantial sleeve or bushing support.

2) The shop is immaculate! Which tells me that management values appearance over function. The setup of a lathe where rotating stock is IN a pedestrian aisle is mind blowing from a management perspective. This reeks of management negligence.

I’ll bet that when the OSHA guys see this video, this shop gets a knock on their front door.


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## jcp (Jan 24, 2019)

Indeed the outboard stand is there but is not supporting the shaft. I have used this same setup many times in my career but the stand was under the shaft adjusted slightly higher than the spindle center line......no problems.


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## higgite (Jan 24, 2019)

A classic illustration of the tail wagging the dog.

Looks to me like the operator forgot to put the support stand in place. It starts out standing beside the work piece, but not supporting it. Also wondering if he hit the emergency stop button or just the emergency slow down button.

Tom


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## vtcnc (Jan 24, 2019)

@higgite, if you watch closely the machine is walking away from him as he is trying to find the button.


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## higgite (Jan 24, 2019)

vtcnc said:


> @higgite, if you watch closely the machine is walking away from him as he is trying to find the button.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


vctnc, I saw that, but I’m afraid I don’t get your point. My comment about which button he hit in the heat of battle was referring to the machine continuing to slowly rotate after he had assumedly hit a stop button. A perhaps feeble attempt at humor on my part.

Tom


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## francist (Jan 24, 2019)

Yes, classic case of the tail wagging the dog. Good thing it didn't turn into a classic case of the operator's pony tail wagging the dog...

-frank


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## JimDawson (Jan 24, 2019)

vtcnc said:


> @higgite, if you watch closely the machine is walking away from him as he is trying to find the button.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Somebody needs to tell that guy ''It's the big RED one''    I'm surprised the spindle took that long to stop, if I hit the E stop with the spindle running on mine and it energizes the brake.

Something like this happened to my lathe at sometime in it's life.  The fan housing and electrical box on the spindle drive motor was broken and the inside if the cabinet is beat up in a couple of places.  We are really careful with unsupported stock, and have proper spindle liners for the sizes we run.  Maximum length we run in this lathe is 48 inches which gives a maximum of about 8 inches of unsupported stock.  Bottom line is be really careful with long stock in your lathe !

You can see the dent in the cabinet just to the right of the hydraulic hose on the spindle.  No evidence of other damage, but if it had hit the hydraulic manifold it could have gotten really expensive.  Looks like I need to clean the fan screen.


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## vtcnc (Jan 24, 2019)

higgite said:


> vctnc, I saw that, but I’m afraid I don’t get your point. My comment about which button he hit in the heat of battle was referring to the machine continuing to slowly rotate after he had assumedly hit a stop button. A perhaps feeble attempt at humor on my part.
> 
> Tom


Sorry...LOL. What I should have said is that whether it was an E-stop or spindle speed dial, or something, that machine wasn't going to let him push it the first time!


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## whitmore (Jan 24, 2019)

higgite said:


> ...wondering if he hit the emergency stop button or just the emergency slow down button.


 
The easiest cutoff to reach on the old LeBlond lathe was, as I recall, the clutch.   Maybe the spindle is just freewheeling while
the operator does his urgent breathing-control exercises.


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## mmcmdl (Jan 25, 2019)

Don'tcha hate when that happens ?  Lathe not lagged down , not that it would've mattered . 

Years back I worked in a closed door top secret lab doing weapons work for the gov . We ran 2 shifts , daylight and evening shift till 12.12 am . The HMFIC was an old German guy . Very nice BUT very strict and ran a tight ship . Anyways I moved over to the evening shift and we used to run G jobs after hours , making potato cannons , flare guns , whatever . So one day we get a surprise meeting with JB the boss , saying he doesn't mind us doing that after hours as long as caution was taken , safety first , and security had to be notified as to we were in the lab at night . 

That same night , my buddy wrapped a bar in the back of a Harding HLV-H lathe at 3000 rpm .  Not funny then , but a memory never forgotten , and can be laughed at today . I thought a helicopter was taking off in the shop ! Broke all the guards off the machine , totally destroyed a Kennedy top , middle and roll-around , threw stuff around the shop like no tomorrow , and walked that HLV-H across the floor like nothing ! 

Ah ......................the G jobs ended the next day .


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## mmcmdl (Jan 25, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> Looks like I need to clean the fan screen.



Get on it ! The TPM team will be inspecting that fan next week !


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## 682bear (Jan 25, 2019)

Been there... done that... 20-something years ago, I chucked a 1/2 inch copper rod up, hanging out the back of the lathe about 3 feet... I was just going to turn it on at 50 rpm or so and part off some blanks to turn into sinker EDM electrodes.

It was after I engaged the spindle that I realized I had left the lathe in high gear instead of shifting it into low... it spun up to 500 rpms, and the rod beat holes in the steel tooling cabinet beside the lathe...

It is amazing how long it takes to find the 'off' button when something like this happens...

-Bear


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## 682bear (Jan 25, 2019)

Also, while we are discussing emergency stop buttons...

I run a large CNC vertical turret lathe at work... it has a large red E-Stop button and a small black 'reset' button... on that particular machine, if something happens, it is best to hit the reset button instead of the E-Stop... the E-Stop cuts power to everything, but the machine continues to 'coast' to a stop... but the reset button stops everything immediately...

Definately a poor design, IMO...

-Bear


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## WCraig (Jan 25, 2019)

JimDawson said:


> ...Looks like I need to clean the fan screen.  ...


I think the guy in the video probably needs to clean something else!!

Craig


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## plunger (Jan 25, 2019)

I wouldnt be suprized if the spindle is not cracked on that lathe


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## Dabbler (Jan 25, 2019)

A few months ago I was doing some research on stands for workholding and came across a fatality that was caused by a 3/4" steel extending out from the headstock - with a stand under it.  The stand looked like it just  fell over and the bar was invisible.  the operator didn't even see it coming.

It turns out that the recommendation is that the stand not only enclose the barstock, but that the stand be weighted very heavily with a wide base.  Mine weighs over 60 lbs, but I have to make a way to increase its footprint to be safe (mine is a 14" per side triangle - the recommendation is 30")


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## Holescreek (Jan 25, 2019)

I've seen the aftermath of bar whip many years ago with an Okuma lathe and 1" bar stock.  I cut off the bent piece of bar stock and kept it in my office for a long time.  It's a direct result of management wanting to run the lathe like it has a bar feeder without actually spending the money to buy one. The feeder housing IS the containment required to run safely.


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## Dinosaur Engineer (Jan 27, 2019)

plunger said:


> I wouldnt be suprized if the spindle is not cracked on that lathe


Spindle bent ?


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## Peyton Price 17 (Nov 6, 2020)

vtcnc said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk






here is a radial arm drill.


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## vtcnc (Nov 6, 2020)

oh god, that was brutal. Poor guy. 

Big machines, big trouble.


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## Peyton Price 17 (Nov 6, 2020)

vtcnc said:


> oh god, that was brutal. Poor guy.
> 
> Big machines, big trouble.


it even comes from the same shop. they have almost no safety. my grandpa about 40 years ago was at work and was drilling a 1/4 inch piece of steel and it caught and spun. he only got a minor scar. Also at the same place he was using a 16 inch grinder. it tore off this thumb but they could stitch it back on. He knew someone there who was grinding with a 5 gallon bucket full of paint thinner open. It caught fire and he threw a 60 pound plate of steel on it to snuff it. the bucket blew up and nearly burnt down the place. he was the safest person there.


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## Papa Charlie (Nov 6, 2020)

I would be concerned that they tried to have him stand and then carried him out. That could exagerate any internal injuries he might have sustained.


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## Peyton Price 17 (Nov 6, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> I would be concerned that they tried to have him stand and then carried him out. That could exagerate any internal injuries he might have sustained.


that is what i thought


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## mksj (Nov 6, 2020)

I read quite a few medical reports on lathe accidents and safety recommendations when I started looking at lathes, the typical was clothing, jewelry and long hair getting caught in the chuck with pretty nasty consequences. A number of incidents with stock bar whip, in one unfortunate report the operator was spared injury but the bar broke, went across the shop  and hit a women co-worker in the head, she did not survive. It is too easy to get complacent or distracted, even for the experienced machinist. Also whenever I try to take shortcuts, I usually make more mistakes and remind myself do it correctly the first time, even if it takes a bit longer.


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## RJSakowski (Nov 6, 2020)

Assuming a 5 hp motor on the press (which may be on the small side), there would be 450 lb-ft. of torque and on a 3 ft. lever, it would require 150 lbs to keep it from spinning if the tool grabbed.

It would seem that an anti-rotation device should be in place to prevent objects larger than the table from causing this sort of an accident.


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## Janderso (Nov 6, 2020)

Papa Charlie said:


> I would be concerned that they tried to have him stand and then carried him out. That could exagerate any internal injuries he might have sustained.


I don't quite understand what that was all about either. Seems to me the best thing to do would be to call emergency services and not move him??


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## Janderso (Nov 6, 2020)

Anyone seen the high school kid trying to hold a lathe from spinning?
It's a wonder he wasn't killed.


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## DavidR8 (Nov 6, 2020)

Janderso said:


> Anyone seen the high school kid trying to hold a lathe from spinning?
> It's a wonder he wasn't killed.


I recall seeing that. Truly terrifying!


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## Lo-Fi (Nov 6, 2020)

Crikey. There are lessons in what _not_ to do right there, aren't there.

The best explanation I've ever seen of the kind of attitude that leads to that sort of unsafe working right here, three minutes in:






"Ain't nothin' happened before..."

Joe Pie also has a great video on why you shouldn't drill "freehand" on a drill press and advocates a simple hook shaped stop that would have prevented that radial arm incident entirely.


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## NCjeeper (Nov 6, 2020)

I put one of these on my lathe.








						FUNNY STICKER LATHE TOS SOUTHBEND MONARCH JACOBS CHUCK TOOL POST HARDINGE 797  | eBay
					

All our stickers are outdoor durable! It is your responsibility to ensure this information is correct. PERFECT FOR THE MILLWRIGHT !!



					www.ebay.com


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## ACHiPo (Nov 7, 2020)

Lo-Fi said:


> Crikey. There are lessons in what _not_ to do right there, aren't there.
> 
> The best explanation I've ever seen of the kind of attitude that leads to that sort of unsafe working right here, three minutes in:
> 
> ...


Richard Feynman is the closest thing I have to a hero.


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## sycle1 (Nov 9, 2020)

Man that guy on the Radial drill was smashed by that bar he was drilling.
Anyone that uses their hands to hold anything while drilling on a radial drill is asking for trouble, they are usually gear driven and don't stop.
Also they are usually gear driven on feeds too. they are big nasty big mean drills,  opposed to your standard little belt driven drill press, Which you can stop and make the belt slip pretty easily.
I had a drill bit shear longtitudinaly, and bury itself in my forearm while on a Radial arm drill when I was an apprentice.
I was using a driven feed, on the radial drill, drilling some tractor equipment.
Always happens so quick.


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## KMoffett (Nov 10, 2020)

In the original video...at about 14 seconds in...the camera zooms in. Was the that edited?


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## Flyinfool (Nov 10, 2020)

I am thinking that whoever it was that shot the vid did so because they knew what was coming when they saw the setup with that long bar sticking out. You can hear 2 people talking about it before it happens.


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## vtcnc (Nov 10, 2020)

Flyinfool said:


> I am thinking that whoever it was that shot the vid did so because they knew what was coming when they saw the setup with that long bar sticking out. You can hear 2 people talking about it before it happens.


Typically these YouTube videos are from the post mortem/safety investigation. Sort of like a LiveLeak or WikiLeak type scenario. The narrator is likely a safety officer or manager that, while viewing the surveillance video in the factory, was filming either on their desktop or more likely with their phones and then posted the recording on YT.

Invariably, these first looks at the accident after they have occurred come with the incredulous commentary and dialogue in the background. I know this because I'm the guy that gets to do that when there is a theft, security risk or trespassers on the property and have to go to Instant Replay to get the evidence.


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## Flyinfool (Nov 10, 2020)

Ya, the safety officer, He was the guy that removed all the safeties and then crushed his hand in between the dies of an injection molding machine.......


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## atunguyd (Nov 10, 2020)

Peyton Price 17 said:


> here is a radial arm drill.





Papa Charlie said:


> I would be concerned that they tried to have him stand and then carried him out. That could exagerate any internal injuries he might have sustained.


Yeah. Did you notice when the guy in blue ran to the left while the other guys propped up the poor fellow? I honestly thought at that point that Mr Blue was about to take a photo 

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## eugene13 (Nov 10, 2020)

What third world country was this in?


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 11, 2020)

That dude got a gut punch that should never have occurred 
Spinning things love to cause damage


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## mmcmdl (Nov 12, 2020)

Trainee killed in apparent accident at McCormick plant
					

WBAL NewsRadio 1090/FM 101.5 - The trainee was pinned under a machine, police said.




					www.wbal.com
				




As a past employee of this company and plant , I can say safely that safety at THIS plant is NOT job #1 . Profits are the only thing they care about , just as my current employer . This woman had 3 days on the job , most likely made under minimum wage thru a temp agency . They'll be paying a hefty price for this accident no doubt .


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## akjeff (Nov 13, 2020)

The dumb ass in video one should do something with that exposed pony tail, before he gets his scalp torn off some some day. Why anyone working around rotating equipment would have one of those, is beyond me.


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## aliva (Nov 14, 2020)

I hope they fired that operator


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