# Thinking of joining the RF-30 club, but I got some questions...



## ARC-170 (Oct 16, 2020)

I'm finding that my LMS 3990 is a little small for some of what I make. So, I took a look and I saw an RF-30 sale on CL (made in around 1991) for $1,000 (machine only, no tooling or vise). There are a few others for a little more (up to $1600) and they come up for sale from time to time. In spite of the round column issues, I'm drawn to this machine. 

1. Seems a bit high for just the machine only. I looked at these before so I looked at my old thread and seems this should be below $1K, maybe in the $800 range. Thoughts?
2. What should I look for as far as wear, red flags, etc?
3. Is the overall depth (front to back) 42-1/2"? If so, I'll need a bigger bench.
4. A search gave weights in the range of 500-660 lbs. I've got 4x4's spaced about 48" apart supporting a steel frame that has a 1-1/4" thick plywood top with a 16 Ga steel cover. This is bolted to the wall of the garage. Is this enough support? I suppose it's moot if I have to move it to a bigger table, but I'd build the new one the same way unless it needs to be stronger.


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## mikey (Oct 16, 2020)

1. Costs vary with location and availability. I agree that $1K sounds a bit high for a 1991 machine but if it is in good condition and fully functional then that's fair. If the mill in the pics is the one you're discussing then it looks to be in fairly good shape. 

2. These things are fairly bulletproof. Make sure everything works, including the fine downfeed. That black know in the middle of the downfeed handle with the three spokes engages the fine downfeed. Lightly snug that knob and turn the round wheel in front of the feed and that should lower the quill with fine control. Make sure the fine downfeed disengages fully when you loosen the black knob. Lower the quill all the way down and look for rub marks on the quill; if you see any, walk away. The machining on these mills is actually quite good and the quill should move freely in the bore; marks mean major issues. Otherwise, just make sure nothing is cracked or not functional. 

3. Yeah, mine is a bit over 42" from the back of the motor to the Y-axis handle. 

4. No idea what your bench looks like so I can't tell you if it will work. Just know that you must be able to access the bottom of the machine in order to lube and adjust the backlash on the Y-axis leadscrew nut. I think it is better to weld up a stand with that in mind and perhaps include a chip pan under the mill. This mill is a lot bigger and heavier than you might think a benchtop mill really is. 

5. The unasked question on how to get the price down. Take a dial test indicator and stand with you and lower the quill. Also bring a metric wrench or socket set and loosen and remove the belt to the main pulley up front. Put the tip of the DTI inside the spindle taper and turn the front pulley by hand and check the run out of the spindle. Ideally, you want to see under 0.0002" TIR. I can almost guarantee you that if the spindle bearings are stock, run out will exceed this. Then lower the quill a little bit and push and pull on the bottom of the spindle. If the indicator shows a lot of run out (like in the 0.002-0.003" range or more) then the drive sleeve bearings are worn and need replacement. You may be able to get the seller to lower his price if run out seems excessive. Tell him that the entire quill and spindle assembly has to come apart in order to do a bearing change, plus you have to source the bearings. Hopefully he'll come down a few hundred; that would bring the mill into the range it should be in - $700-800.


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## addertooth (Oct 16, 2020)

I would pay very close attention to the condition of the Dovetails. So many of these RF-30 machines were put in small shops, and were placed next to the welding/grinding station.  I was looking at one which had been in a car garage, and it had heavy corrosion and deep scoring on the dovetails.  This was due to the mill getting welding splatter and grinding dust land on the dovetails. It was a genuine Rong-Fu, which came from the factory with the hand-scraped surfaces.  The poor environment had obliterated any signs of the once beautiful hand scraped dovetails.

Virtually anything can be repaired or replaced on any mill (gears, bearings, handles, etc), but once your dovetails are scored, worn, swayback, you are out of luck

I would suggest you read up on the many inventive methods people use to Tram mills which have a round column. Get very familiar with the process, and decide if you can live with your preferred process. When you change your height (Z-Axis), you will need to Tram the Mill to get it back to true.  I have seen a large jig (home made), which relies upon ground rods and bearings to keep the alignment true when raising and lowering the head; that is also an option.   Overall, most people who have one of these mills find them very capable.


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## WCraig (Oct 16, 2020)

The pictures seem to show that the owner has rewired to permit normal and reverse rotation but the cover on the motor is missing.  To me, that is a red flag and I'd check the wiring very carefully.  Well, honestly, I pretty much always assume that the previous owner was a yahoo!  

Re price, if you waive around $800 or $900 in cash, the seller may change their mind.  Or not.  When I'm selling, I have an asking price and a number in my head that I'm willing to accept.

Craig


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## ARC-170 (Oct 16, 2020)

Thanks everyone!
Mike, I usually take a few measuring devices with me, so thanks for letting me know what to measure.
Addertooth, thanks for the tip about the ways. I'm familiar with the "losing the x and y" issue with this machine. It's the price I have to pay to get the next size up, I think.
WCraig: I thought the open electrical box was a concern as well. The seller is "firm" on the price, but waving money around usually helps, and I think the same as you: they always have a price in mind.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 16, 2020)

What about this one. It's a Smithy BX-288. Looks like a Rong Fu clone and it appears to have a tilting head. A local machine shop has it for sale for $850. It has what appears to be a motorized X feed. Probably well-used, though. And that motor looks like it might be 220 or even 440, or 3-phase.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 16, 2020)

Interesting machine. I think that's the equivalent of an RF-40; same basic idea except gear driven and tilting head as you say.








						Gear Head Bench Type Milling Drilling Machine - RF-40 - RongFu
					

Gear Head Bench Type Milling Drilling Machine - RF-40




					www.rongfu.com
				



The tag says 110v so unless the motor has been replaced I’d say it’s still 110v.
It looks pretty rough but could just need a serious cleaning. Could be the better deal to be honest.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 16, 2020)

I would avoid the round column with the geared head.  Even the dovetail column gear head is a compromise.  High part count plus inexpensive construction equals a tool that won't age well.

Like Mikey said, the RF30 mills are pretty bulletproof.  They're simple to work on and simple to improve.  Many of their shortcomings can be addressed with modifications and detail-oriented adjustments.

The ways on mine were flaked at the factory.  It has lived a pretty good life between my Dad's shop and mine, but I still have surface rust.  Until I learned how to dial the movement and rigidity into my work technique, I was thinking of selling it off.  Once I got smart, I started to really like it.  I installed DRO, power feed, überfett pinch bolts, and new way lock knobs.  Every part that mates to another part has room for optimal alignment, allowing for fine tuning and adjustment.  My tram from the factory is perfect, so I got comfortable pushing the kind of tools that a 2 hp mill should be able to push and getting good results.  I gotta say, the round column mill does not get the credit it deserves.

Finding your datum after a head height change should be childsplay, and I do not understand why people complain about it.  I consider it a non-issue.  People have come up with a variety of thoughtful mechanisms for dealing with that if it becomes an issue.

The mill weighs as much as a complete small block Chevy.  If you can set one of those on your bench, then it's strong enough.  If that idea makes you cringe, you might need more bench.  Lumber is okay, but I'd want my 4x4 posts spaced at the corners of the mill base rather than too far out.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 16, 2020)

@pontiac428's advice is sage. In honesty I looked at an RF40 before I bought my RF30 clone and couldn't deal with the gear noise.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 16, 2020)

although lots of great work has been and is still being done on round column mills, if you can keep looking and wait for either a dovetail column bench mill or a small knee mill I would do that. I've had to deal with the re-zeroing of the work from a round column type "mill" and the constant work arounds with short/ long drills, this that and the other and really don't miss them. Keep saving and keep looking and I think you'll end up with a far better mill. You also know already that tooling up a mill, even if you already have a smaller one, is going to be a chunk of change, so keep that in mind when you're looking too.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 17, 2020)

Thanks, everyone!

The Smithy BX-288 seller never returned my message. If it's an RF-40, then it's probably too big anyway. And, it sounds like it's not as easy to modify, buy parts for, etc...

I need to go look at the RF-30 and see it in person. I looked at one a long time ago and I remember thinking it was huge, but I didn't take any measurements. *6. How much width do I need on either side for it?* I have an area that's 66" wide and I'd like to know if it would fit there.

The biggest mill I could put in place of my LMS 3990 is either a PM-25 or a Grizzly G0704.

An RF-25 might fit as well. I'll have to keep my eyes out for one.

And, there's always just making what I have work. My vise only opens to 3", and I've had to modify a few designs to be smaller to fit. LMS sells a 5", but my machine is not listed as compatible, which makes me think it's too big. vise. I could also clamp the part directly to the table as well.


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## mickri (Oct 17, 2020)

Measured my RF 30 clone for you.  My table is 29" wide.  On mine the distance from having the table all the way to one side to moving it all the way to the other side is 60 inches.  That includes the 3 1/2" handles on each wheel.

You see all kinds of contraptions that people have come up with to keep the head aligned.  I use a dial indicator on a magnetic base.  Quick and simple to use.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 18, 2020)

*7. DIMENSIONS*
Mike Chuck: Thanks so much, I really appreciate it. Could you take a few more measurements when convenient? No hurry, nearest 1/4" is fine. I have another idea for where to put this, but I need some dimensions:



Base Width:
Overall Width:
Base Depth:
Handle Protrusion:
Overall depth:
Overall Height:


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## mickri (Oct 18, 2020)

Here are the dimensions.
Base Width  15 1/4"
Base Depth  23 1/2"
Overall Width  43 3/4"
Handle Protrusion  9"
Overall Depth  32 1/4"  This was hard to measure.  Might be off by an inch or two.
Overall Height  42 1/2"

Name is Chuck,  My forum name mickri are just some letters that have meaning to me.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 18, 2020)

mickri said:


> Here are the dimensions.
> Base Width  15 1/4"
> Base Depth  23 1/2"
> Overall Width  43 3/4"
> ...



Chuck:
My apologies, thanks for correcting me. I thought it was odd that you listed a chuck on your signature; it didn't occur to me that it was a name. Thanks so much for the measurements, it helped me draw the machine in AutoCAD to see if it would fit such that it would be out of the way of my wife when she gets out of the minivan.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 18, 2020)

*8. CHIP COLLAR*
The place I'm thinking of putting this machine requires that I make something that will keep chips in front of the machine and not allow any chips to be flung behind the machine. I sketched up something I thought might work, but thought I'd see what you RF owners think.

I drew this in Photoshop and it's very rough. It's a flat piece of metal or wood that is mounted to a collar that goes around the column. It is behind the column. I'm not sure how high it needs to be, but that this was a good start.




Here is a sketch of just the collar and flat piece:


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## DavidR8 (Oct 18, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> The place I'm thinking of putting this machine requires that I make something that will keep chips in front of the machine and not allow any chips to be flung behind the machine. I sketched up something I thought might work, but thought I'd see what you RF owners think.
> 
> I drew this in Photoshop and it's very rough. It's a flat piece of metal or wood that is mounted to a collar that goes around the column. It is behind the column. I'm not sure how high it needs to be, but that this was a good start.
> 
> ...



Makes sense to me. I might have to do something similar 


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## pontiac428 (Oct 18, 2020)

Put up a shower curtain between your mill and her car.  If you don't want to ruin your favorite little mermaid shower curtain, you can buy industrial curtain panels on eBay or Amazon.  Soft barriers are nice in tight space like that.


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## mickri (Oct 18, 2020)

I do not take big cuts.  I have found that my machine likes cuts no bigger than .020.  Occasionally I might take a .030 cut but anything over that is not good.  Speed is usually 400 rpm.  This is for steel.  I use 3/8 and 1/2 end mills most of the time.  I have not machined anything other than steel so far.  I do not find chips getting flung all over the place.   90% or more of the chips seem to fall on the vise and table.  I very rarely find chips to the back or off the sides of the mill.  I do find a small amount of chips on the garage floor in front of the mill.  That is my experience with chips.


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## Ken from ontario (Oct 18, 2020)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> although lots of great work has been and is still being done on round column mills, if you can keep looking and wait for either a dovetail column bench mill or a small knee mill I would do that. I've had to deal with the re-zeroing of the work from a round column type "mill" and the constant work arounds with short/ long drills, this that and the other and really don't miss them. Keep saving and keep looking and I think you'll end up with a far better mill. You also know already that tooling up a mill, even if you already have a smaller one, is going to be a chunk of change, so keep that in mind when you're looking too.


Your advice in general makes perfect sense but the problem OP and many other users of small machines have(including myself) is, lack of shop space. I always wished I had a full size knee mill, but I compromised and got a mini mill, now that I see these round column RF-30s, I have found out I could shoehorn it in my shop so now if I ever dream of buying a better mill, I can only picture an RF-30.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 18, 2020)

I totally agree, you have to run what you can and what you can find. However there are some smaller knee mills out there (Grizzly, Clausing, Milrite maybe) that don't take up all that much more space. Admittedly I have mine angled to that I have to move my drill press table if I'm doing long parts and suck my gut in to get past it if the wife parks a few inches over, but it's manageable


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## DavidR8 (Oct 18, 2020)

I’m very happy with my RF30 clone. 
It does everything I need and I have space for it. I could fit a knee mill in my shop but they are rare as hen’s teeth where I live. 


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## ARC-170 (Oct 18, 2020)

I thought of getting a smaller knee mill. It takes up about the same footprint as an RF. They come up from time to time on CL, but it usually seems to be resellers, not individuals, so the prices are on the higher side. They are so heavy you need to hire a rigger/machine mover to pick up and deliver them. I think I heard that's about $500 or so. They tend to sit for awhile, which I suppose is a good thing; I could offer less to pay for moving it. But, I think they know what they have and that it will take awhile.
I could probably rent a trailer and maybe a winch and use a crow bar to lift the mill enough to get blocks under it to be able to get pipes under it to roll it into the trailer. That's risky, and I'm not strong enough. So, a mill I can left by hand or with an engine hoist it will have to be.
Knee mills have no storage space under them, either. Another advantage of a smaller, bench top mill.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 18, 2020)

*10. MOVING THE MACHINE*
BTW, speaking of moving a mill: where does one put the straps when lifting an RF-30? Is this the only way:




Would 1" wide straps in a pickup bed hold it down sufficiently? I'd probably use at least 2 in each location. In other words, I'd double-strap it. Thoughts?


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## DavidR8 (Oct 18, 2020)

I moved mine recently and put the straps under the head and the motor for balance there is a risk of bending the sheet metal shroud around the drive system so I put blocks of wood under the straps so they cleared the shroud. 


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## ARC-170 (Oct 19, 2020)

What about putting the straps up thru the column? Seems like it would be balanced.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 19, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> BTW, speaking of moving a mill: where does one put the straps when lifting an RF-30? Is this the only way:
> 
> View attachment 341092
> 
> ...



Put a block of wood on the table for the quill to rest on and crank the head down as low as it will go. That lowers the centre of gravity. 
Then strap on the column above the head. 
When I bought mine home it was bolted to a pair of 2x6’s that were the length of my truck box. So there was no chance for it to move forward or backwards. And the column straps held it vertically secure. 


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## DavidR8 (Oct 19, 2020)

Duplicate


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## mickri (Oct 19, 2020)

I took mine apart into three pieces to move it.  And it came with a stand that had wheels.  The seller had an overhead hoist which made things easy to load into my pickup.  I took off the motor and separated the column/head from the base.  The motor and the head/column went into the bed first followed by the base.  The stand went in last.  Did the reverse when I got home.  Stand out first followed by the base.  Slid the head/column to the edge of the tailgate and tipped it up onto the base.  The head was as low as it would go.  Attached the motor and wheeled it to the back corner of the garage.  The only tooling that came with my mill/drill was a 15" Walther rotary table.  It had to weigh well over 200 lbs and wouldn't fit on the table.  It was a bear to move.  Sold it to a local machine shop.  The guy who came to get it picked it up like it was no big deal and set it on the back seat of his truck.

Some of these RF 30's have a lifting eye by the column.  The owner's manuals also have lifting instructions.  The owner's manual I have shows lifting like in the above picture.  Recommends using 2 inch straps.


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## Aaron_W (Oct 19, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> I thought of getting a smaller knee mill. It takes up about the same footprint as an RF. They come up from time to time on CL, but it usually seems to be resellers, not individuals, so the prices are on the higher side. They are so heavy you need to hire a rigger/machine mover to pick up and deliver them. I think I heard that's about $500 or so. They tend to sit for awhile, which I suppose is a good thing; I could offer less to pay for moving it. But, I think they know what they have and that it will take awhile.
> I could probably rent a trailer and maybe a winch and use a crow bar to lift the mill enough to get blocks under it to be able to get pipes under it to roll it into the trailer. That's risky, and I'm not strong enough. So, a mill I can left by hand or with an engine hoist it will have to be.
> Knee mills have no storage space under them, either. Another advantage of a smaller, bench top mill.



My Clausing actually sits on a storage cabinet, although you do have to allow for the knee screw infringing on that space. I don't actually find the cabinet all that useful though being so low to the ground, so I mostly just keep the rotary table and dividing head down there since they are kind of large and less frequently used items.
I think the Rockwell mills also sit on a cabinet. Both the Clausing and Rockwell mills can be easily disassembled for moving, and they weigh about the same as an RF-31. Not easy to find though and at the $2000+ that they often sell for, there is a good selection of brand new bench mills to consider.


If the extra effort indicating the head on the RF mills isn't a major issue for you, they can be a pretty good bargain. There are quite a few members here who have them and seem to make them work.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 19, 2020)

don't get me wrong, I would have been totally happy with a round column mill compared with the drill press I was using as a "mill", but I also had a lot of frustration working within the quill travel to avoid losing my zeroes. Doing that also forces you to mill with the quill extended a long way, which isn't ideal. I had pretty much settled on saving up for a PM-30V when my Grizzly came up on CL within a couple of hours drive. Rented a drop deck trailer, rolled it onto the trailer (it was on a dolly) and then rolled it off when I got home. The biggest drama was choosing between listening to nuthin' but Country or the dragging safety chains for the 1 1/2h trip home (I couldn't figure out how to change the radio station) 

Aaron - mine also has a cabinet underneath - I use it to store the angle vise, right angle plate and other bits'n'pieces I don't use much.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 19, 2020)

Not to sidetrack the thread but to solve the problem of losing position I'm going to do this modification:









						RF-30 Clone Head Alignment Guide
					

Here is my latest mod to my Grizzly G1006 / RF-30 clone mill. Like everyone, I was annoyed by having to plan ahead so much in setting the head height so I could complete all the operations I had planned within the available travel of the quill. I searched online and YT many times for ideas and...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## ARC-170 (Oct 19, 2020)

UPDATE:

I went to go look at it. I think the seller (guy worked on industrial scales, so I think he knows a little about machines) got it from some sort of auction. He never used it and said it was from some guy who was a contractor who he didn't think used it much. It was dirty, and had lots of chips under the table when I moved the table to inspect the Y axis screw. The grease seemed old, but all the parts moves freely. The fine feed worked well. He said the missing electrical cover fell off on the freeway when he was bringing it home. The belts were very loose and one had a rip in it.

I took a dial indicator and moved the quill down and could move it back and forth and right and left 0.003"-0.005". I took a picture of the quill. I saw what looked like rub marks, but I couldn't really tell if they were from the old grease or something else. Maybe someone with more knowledge can tell me what they see.




I offered $800. He just said no. I said, "thanks, if you change your mind let me know." He's asking $1,000. No tooling, no vise. There were a couple of other machines like this one for sale at the same time that were a bit more ($1,250, I think), but they had stands and vises and some tooling. They were gone before this one. He said I was the first one to come look at it, but he's had lots of tire kickers. This has been listed for about a month. I think it's a decent machine, but I'm concerned about the runout on the quill. If this is not a concern and you all think this is a good deal, let me know. The seller has a forklift he can load it with, too. That's no help when I get it home, though. Ha! But, I'm in no hurry.

I was able to get some measurements, though.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 19, 2020)

Did you lock the quill before performing your deflection test?  If not, that explains your numbers.  His price is probably fair for your area.

I have moved mine so many times... so many.  I use a hoist if I need to take it off the stand for ceiling clearance, but the best way is to leave it on the stand (factory chitty cheet metal stand with undersized casters) and wheel it up a ramp into a uhaul truck.  I've done all of it solo, but the ramp is spooky alone and the engine hoist is ludicrous to run without a good helper.  It's not bad, but you really need to respect its 700 pound weight.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 19, 2020)

duplicate


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## DavidR8 (Oct 19, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I went to go look at it. I think the seller (guy worked on industrial scales, so I think he knows a little about machines) got it from some sort of auction. He never used it and said it was from some guy who was a contractor who he didn't think used it much. It was dirty, and had lots of chips under the table when I moved the table to inspect the Y axis screw. The grease seemed old, but all the parts moves freely. The fine feed worked well. He said the missing electrical cover fell off on the freeway when he was bringing it home. The belts were very loose and one had a rip in it.
> 
> ...



If I were looking and came across that mill for a grand I’d jump on it. 
The runout is almost guaranteed to be on account of not locking the quill. 


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## Ken from ontario (Oct 19, 2020)

If I'm reading between the lines correctly, the seller has no idea how many owners this mill has gone through, he just bought a bunch of tools and is selling the mill right now with no tooling, as is,, but that does not mean it's a bad deal. $800 is a sweet deal  from where I'm standing. a $1000 is not bad either.

Ideally you are looking for a mill that is sold by the owner, who is willing to cut or drill right in front of you or let you machine a piece of aluminum and get a feel of the machine but unfortunately for that to happen you will need to wait for god knows how long.

Let me ask you something, if Tomorrow you find out it is sold, will you be extremely disappointed? if you will, then the $200 difference is not going to make you any richer or poorer, call him and close the deal.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 19, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> Did you lock the quill before performing your deflection test?  If not, that explains your numbers.  His price is probably fair for your area.



No, I didn't! Doh! Seems that amount of deflection is not so bad now.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 19, 2020)

Ken from ontario said:


> If I'm reading between the lines correctly, the seller has no idea how many owners this mill has gone through, he just bought a bunch of tools and is selling the mill right now with no tooling, as is,, but that does not mean it's a bad deal. $800 is a sweet deal  from where I'm standing. a $1000 is not bad either.
> 
> Ideally you are looking for a mill that is sold by the owner, who is willing to cut or drill right in front of you or let you machine a piece of aluminum and get a feel of the machine but unfortunately for that to happen you will need to wait for god knows how long.
> 
> Let me ask you something, if Tomorrow you find out it is sold, will you be extremely disappointed? if you will, then the $200 difference is not going to make you any richer or poorer, call him and close the deal.



He was not very forthcoming with information about where he got it or previous owners. He only mentioned something about getting it at a sale and wanting to keep it, but he was getting rid of stuff.

I will not be too disappointed, since these come up for sale often enough. I was looking at some old files and found my notes from two years ago when I bought my current mill. The RF's were going for $800 to $1400. So this one might be priced ok. I'm just surprised people don't counter when you make them an offer, or at least offer some justification for the price. Maybe I should ask whey they think that's a fair price. I'll think about it for a few days and call him and see where he stands.

I would still need to buy a vise and make a stand. *Shars has a 6" for about $150. Is that the right size?* A local welder quoted me $220 for a stand. I have R8 tooling on my current mill so I don't need much else. About $1400 total.

For comparison a brand new Grizzly G0704 (comes with stand) would be about $1900 delivered. A G0705 (an RF clone) would be about $2300. I'd still need a vise, though.

I like the idea of used; it's cheaper and I get satisfaction out of bringing an old machine back to its former glory.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 19, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> He was not very forthcoming with information about where he got it or previous owners. He only mentioned something about getting it at a sale and wanting to keep it, but he was getting rid of stuff.
> 
> I will not be too disappointed, since these come up for sale often enough. I was looking at some old files and found my notes from two years ago when I bought my current mill. The RF's were going for $800 to $1400. So this one might be priced ok. I'm just surprised people don't counter when you make them an offer, or at least offer some justification for the price. Maybe I should ask whey they think that's a fair price. I'll think about it for a few days and call him and see where he stands.
> 
> ...



In my opinion a 6” vise is too large for these mills because they simply take up too much space. 
I have a 4” Glacern on my RF30 and it’s the perfect size. It fits well on the table and doesn’t take away any Y-axis travel. 
I would not go too inexpensive on a vise as it’s a foundation for accurate work. Inexpensive vises tend not to be machined well so the movable jaw might lift causing the work to lift off the base. 


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## mickri (Oct 19, 2020)

I vote for the 4" vise.  I got my 4" from Shars on sale for around $100.  That might have also included the shipping.  Don't remember.  IMHO the 4" is a perfect fit on a RF 30.  Mine came with a swivel base which I removed.  I made a backing plate for the swivel base that fits my chucks.  Not as good as a rotary table but still very useful at times.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 19, 2020)

David & Chuck:

Would you mind posting a picture of your vises on your mills? It'd give me a better idea of what these look like. No rush.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 19, 2020)

I could move it forward one slot and not lose any Y-axis travel.


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## mickri (Oct 19, 2020)

Here you go.  My vise and the swivel base live on the table.  I have the coordinates written down to center the swivel base under the quill.  I never just randomly move the head.  If I need to move the head I set up a DI so that I can bring it back to alignment with the vise and with the swivel base.


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## Manual Mac (Oct 20, 2020)

mickri said:


> Measured my RF 30 clone for you.  My table is 29" wide.  On mine the distance from having the table all the way to one side to moving it all the way to the other side is 60 inches.  That includes the 3 1/2" handles on each wheel.
> 
> You see all kinds of contraptions that people have come up with to keep the head aligned.  I use a dial indicator on a magnetic base.  Quick and simple to use.
> 
> View attachment 340929


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## ARC-170 (Oct 20, 2020)

*12. VISE (continued)*
David and Chuck: Thanks so much for the timely response! I was concerned about the size because my current mill vise only opens to 3" and I thought 4" wasn't much bigger. Shars has a 5" vise (#202-1001 or #202-1022) that is not too much bigger, about 1.2" longer (measured along the Y-axis), including the handle, about 1/4" wider (X-axis) and about 3/8" higher (Z-axis). The 4" vise looks good, but what about the 5"?  It gives me lots more room, but maybe it's just a little too big, meaning limits to the Y-axis travel. I'll have to see if I can get that dimension. I figure I'm considering a bigger mill to make bigger parts; no sense in having the vise be too small. Thoughts?

I edited the posts to number the questions so we could keep track.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 20, 2020)

My vise has pretty generous capacity:
4" capacity between the inner jaw plates.
11" capacity between the outer jaw plates by moving the jaws to the outside. 

A key factor is the distance from the front of the vise to the mounting lugs. As this distance increases, the vise has to shift toward the operator so it doesn't bump into the column. So the benefit of additional capacity might be hampered by the loss of Y-axis travel.
I think the biggest question is what kind of work do you expect to do?


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## ARC-170 (Oct 20, 2020)

*13. CHANGING SPEEDS*
I was looking at the instructions I downloaded and it appears that you just loosen the bolts on the middle pulley to loosen the belts, then move them to the desired pulley. Is that correct? How much of a pain is this? I'm pretty tall, but I might have to stand on a stool.

*14. CHANGING TOOLS*
IIRC, the spindle on this machine had some splined shaft sticking out the top. 3-01 on the "Complex Machine" parts diagram, but it might've been 3-17. Is there a special wrench to hold this? I don't think it was a hex bolt, but I could be wrong. I DO remember a large hex bolt (about 2" A/F), but didn't think this was the right one. In any case, how hard is it to change tools? Seems like there'd be lots of opening and closing the top cover.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 20, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> My vise has pretty generous capacity:
> 4" capacity between the inner jaw plates.
> 11" capacity between the outer jaw plates by moving the jaws to the outside.
> 
> ...



This whole process started when I was designing a ball turner for my lathe. The yoke that holds the part that holds the blade is 4" high so it doesn't fit in my milling vise. Mine does not allow for putting the jaws on the outside, and anyway, they only stick up about 0.10", which is not enough to clamp anything safely. I had to redesign it in 3 pieces so I could make it. I also need room to insert a piece of round drill rod (1/4" or so) so I can square up pieces. So, anything that is bigger than about 2-3/4" won't fit. That really limits what I can make. It makes for an interesting design challenge, but also is a PITA.
I thought a 5" vise would give me enough room, but not be too big for the mill.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 20, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> *13. CHANGING SPEEDS*
> I was looking at the instructions I downloaded and it appears that you just loosen the bolts on the middle pulley to loosen the belts, then move them to the desired pulley. Is that correct? How much of a pain is this? I'm pretty tall, but I might have to stand on a stool.



I can change the belt positions in about a minute. I keep the necessary wrenches near the machine. That said I installed a 3-phase motor and VFD which greatly reduces the need to change belt positions.



ARC-170 said:


> *14. CHANGING TOOLS*
> IIRC, the spindle on this machine had some splined shaft sticking out the top. 3-01 on the "Complex Machine" parts diagram, but it might've been 3-17. Is there a special wrench to hold this? I don't think it was a hex bolt, but I could be wrong. I DO remember a large hex bolt (about 2" A/F), but didn't think this was the right one. In any case, how hard is it to change tools? Seems like there'd be lots of opening and closing the top cover.


There is a special wrench (I cannot recall the name of it...) to hold the spindle so the drawbar can be loosened. On my machine I don't have to remove the cover because it has a hole above the spindle. I've never had to secure the spindle to loosen the drawbar. My mill has an MT3 taper not R8 so the need to secure the spindle when dealing with the drawbar may differ for an R8 spindle.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 20, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> *12. VISE (continued)*
> . Shars has a 5" vise (#202-1001 or #202-1022)  Thoughts?


I have the Shars 5" vise, and I think it is perfect.  A 6" is way too big, and the 4" is great but just a touch small, so the 5" is Goldilocks.



ARC-170 said:


> *13. CHANGING SPEEDS
> 
> 14. CHANGING TOOLS*


I keep the belts *just* loose enough to be able to jockey the belt with some firm effort.  I push the belt to the grove above or below the sheave I'm in while rotating the pulleys a bit so it walks into the next sheave.  Easier done than explained, but it is what I do and I can face steel at .040 doc with a 3" face cutter without slipping.

Changing tools, I have never owned or made a spline wrench.  I use a box wrench on the drawbar, grab and hold a handful of belt, and tighten or loosen the drawbar.  Might not sound good, but it works and it's safe as long as the power is off.  Again, it's what I do, and I still have ten fingers.

Changing speeds and changing tools on the RF-3x are the reason I bought a mill with a power drawbar and a variable speed head.  It's a pain, and I employ techniques to make it less so.  Jockeying the belts around works just fine, and holding the spindle by using the belt does too.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 21, 2020)

The RF-30 is no longer listed, so it's either sold or taken off the market.

*15. Any one have any thoughts on this machine?*
This one (AJ Tools DM-3OA Mill Drill Milling Drilling Machine 1 Phase 2HP Table 8x28) has been sitting for awhile on CL and it appears the price was raised. It's also listed on Ebay for $1750.

I think it was $1250 at one point, and I saw on older post for it for $1500 and now it's $1650. It appears to be a copy, but it has a different depth gauge.
I'm pretty sure it's overpriced and it appears to be missing a handwheel. I have an email sent to the seller, who I think is a reseller.




I'm not in a hurry, but thought I'd post machines that come up so I can learn what to look for and what's a good price so I can act when the right machine comes up.
As I think of questions and issues I will also post those. Your input is much appreciated.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 21, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> The RF-30 is no longer listed, so it's either sold or taken off the market.
> 
> *15. Any one have any thoughts on this machine?*
> This one (AJ Tools DM-3OA Mill Drill Milling Drilling Machine 1 Phase 2HP Table 8x28) has been sitting for awhile on CL and it appears the price was raised. It's also listed on Ebay for $1750.
> ...


That's an outrageous price for a machine that needs so much TLC.  To me that's $500-$600 machine. 
Looks like it needs two handwheels and possibly the lever to lock the quill. The shaft is there but the lever bit is either hidden or missing.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 21, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> That's an outrageous price for a machine that needs so much TLC.  To me that's $500-$600 machine.
> Looks like it needs two handwheels and possibly the lever to lock the quill. The shaft is there but the lever bit is either hidden or missing.



Glad I'm not the only one who thought that. It's about an hour drive away and it appears to be some sort of reseller. I doubt they are going to deal on the price much because I bet they are monitoring CL and now see they are the only RF on the market in that area. I hope they call me so I can talk to them and get more details.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 21, 2020)

The table looks rotten, and it's hard to tell if the base is in the same condition.

That one has a hexagonal comumn base, which means it has the skinny column.  I'd look for one with the heavy column with the squared off base casting.  To me, it would be worth at least $300 on the purchase price in useful value to have the better column.

There are a LOT of these RF machines out in the wild.  Save your money for a real good one.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 21, 2020)

*16. STAND*

I need to get one with a stand or make one. I was thinking to make one that is the same depth as the machine (24") with a table that is a little wider (36")  so I have room for wrenches, calipers, mics, plans, etc. I have a tendency to put near the machine when I'm working. There's about 10" on either side. Is this enough? It seems to be on my mini mill, but I could go a little wider so the table is as wide as the mill table and feed screw handles, or just go an even 48". I don't have much more room than that. Thoughts?




The dimensions of the mill are rough. The red box represents a tool box I'm going to use to put all the tooling in. It's one of those end cabinets from HF. I have it on my main tool box but don't need it there anymore. The welder told me to use 2" square tubing that's 1/8" thick. The top is 3/4" plywood with 16Ga steel plate on top (not shown). I plan to bolt the mill thru the top and into the metal tubing, that's why the front and back metal tubes are under the bolt holes. There are actually 3 cross members under the mill: front, back and middle. I could also extend out the top beyond the metal an inch or two instead of flush as shown.

I may be getting ahead of myself here, since I don't even have a mill, but I want to plan it out and make sure there's room for this. That could affect my decision to even get one. I have to think this thru and make sure it will fit and not be too intrusive on Her Majesty's chariot (the wife's minivan). 

Actually, what I really need to do is make something with this that saves her a boatload of money, then she'll be more OK with having it in the garage.


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## Aaron_W (Oct 21, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> *12. VISE (continued)*
> David and Chuck: Thanks so much for the timely response! I was concerned about the size because my current mill vise only opens to 3" and I thought 4" wasn't much bigger. Shars has a 5" vise (#202-1001 or #202-1022) that is not too much bigger, about 1.2" longer (measured along the Y-axis), including the handle, about 1/4" wider (X-axis) and about 3/8" higher (Z-axis). The 4" vise looks good, but what about the 5"?  It gives me lots more room, but maybe it's just a little too big, meaning limits to the Y-axis travel. I'll have to see if I can get that dimension. I figure I'm considering a bigger mill to make bigger parts; no sense in having the vise be too small. Thoughts?
> 
> I edited the posts to number the questions so we could keep track.



Not an RF-30 / 31 but I recently got a 4" vise as the 5" that came with my Clausing is just a tad large and cuts into the already small Y axis travel. I have a shot of the 4 and 5" side by side showing the difference in size, 5" on the right in case it isn't obvious.




My mill is a 6x24, and in the furthest back slot the 5" still overhangs the front of the table by about 1-1/8". The 4" in the middle slot has about 3/4" overhang, and in the rear slot is nearly flush with the front of the table. With the larger table on the RF-30/31 the 5" might just fit flush in the rear slot, so it could be an option. 

I won't be getting rid of my 5" vise because it is usable on the mill for large objects, its just not as useful day to day as I think the 4" will be. The Glacern vises are very nice, and almost 1/2 the price of a Kurt.



ARC-170 said:


> *15. Any one have any thoughts on this machine?*
> This one (AJ Tools DM-3OA Mill Drill Milling Drilling Machine 1 Phase 2HP Table 8x28) has been sitting for awhile on CL and it appears the price was raised. It's also listed on Ebay for $1750.
> 
> I think it was $1250 at one point, and I saw on older post for it for $1500 and now it's $1650. It appears to be a copy, but it has a different depth gauge.
> ...



At $1000 or less I think the RF-30/31 mills are a decent value, some drawbacks but you get a fairly large and hefty mill for the price. Once you start getting up past $1300 I think there are better options. The Grizzly G0704 and PM25 are $1600-1700 new, only a hair smaller and have a square column so you don't have the issue of indicating after moving the head. At the $2000-2500 range (RF-31 new) you have a lot of moderately compact options.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 21, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> *16. STAND*
> 
> I need to get one with a stand or make one. I was thinking to make one that is the same depth as the machine (24") with a table that is a little wider (36")  so I have room for wrenches, calipers, mics, plans, etc. I have a tendency to put near the machine when I'm working. There's about 10" on either side. Is this enough? It seems to be on my mini mill, but I could go a little wider so the table is as wide as the mill table and feed screw handles, or just go an even 48". I don't have much more room than that. Thoughts?
> 
> ...


That seems a good size to me. I have zero space around my mill because the stand it came with didn't have any. I have plans to weld up a new stand but...projects abound


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## mickri (Oct 22, 2020)

16.  stand
The top on my stand extends out 8" on each side of the base.  It is very handy to set stuff on while using the mill/drill.  I wouldn't want it any narrower but don't think that it needs to be wider either.  My stand is made out of 2" angle iron and the top is made out of 2x6 douglas fir.

I looked at the HF end cabinets.  They seem  to be pretty beefy and have a capacity of over 300 lbs.  2" x 1/8 wall square tubing is probably way over kill strength wise.  I think that you could weld 2" angle iron to each of the corners and along the top front, back and sides.  Extend the front and back pieces out to whatever width you want the top to be.  The mounting holes on my mill/drill are set in 1" from the sides, 1 3/4" from the front and 3 1/2" from the back so the mounting bolts would go through the top of the cabinet.  Did a quick sketch in Sektchup for you and broke it down to 3 views  One the end cabinet with the angle iron and top tray. Two just the angle iron and three the top tray.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 22, 2020)

*16. STAND (continued)*
Chuck, thanks, that's awesome. The welder I talked to suggested I use the 2"/1/8" thick material since he uses a lot of it and has it lying around. I asked about thinner material but he said he wouldn't recommend it (probably because he has lots of the other stuff! Ha!). He mentioned angle iron, but didn't think it would be as stiff as the square tubing. Also, I'd like something that doesn't have the sharp corners.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 22, 2020)

*17. MACHINES TO LOOK AT, PART 3*

There is a used machine dealer not too far away that has 3 or 4 Rong Fu clones for sale for $1,000 each. I can't tell if they are all the same; the pictures seem to be of two different machines (note the different labels and stands), but I saw at least 3 other ones in the picture in the ad. *They are missing the front panel. Is this a big deal?* I'd like to put a depth/Z-axis DRO on this and that seems like a good place to mount one.
I talked to the seller and he's "open to offers". He says he has tooling and other items he could include, depending on what deal we make.

*Does anyone see any items of concern in these images? *The seller says the machines were taken out of a shop that had these set up for 2nd operations. He says he looks for ones in decent shape and that these are all in good order. He was very forthcoming with information.

Let's use numbers to refer to images: 1-3 are top 3, L-R, 4-6 or bottom 3, L-R.

1. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 2. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 3. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



4. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 5. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 6.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 22, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> *17. MACHINES TO LOOK AT, PART 3*
> 
> There is a used machine dealer not too far away that has 3 or 4 Rong Fu clones for sale for $1,000 each. I can't tell if they are all the same; the pictures seem to be of two different machines (note the different labels and stands), but I saw at least 3 other ones in the picture in the ad. *They are missing the front panel. Is this a big deal?* I'd like to put a depth/Z-axis DRO on this and that seems like a good place to mount one.
> I talked to the seller and he's "open to offers". He says he has tooling and other items he could include, depending on what deal we make.
> ...


Pics #1, 5 and 6 look like the same machine. Missing Y-axis and one X-axis handwheel. Definitely well-used.
#2, 3 and 4 look like the same same machine and seems complete and the most cared for. This is the one I'd focus on.
The missing front panel is not an issue.
(as a complete aside I'm totally envious of what seems to be a decent used machinery market!)


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## Cadillac STS (Oct 22, 2020)

Try to buy the best 3 for $2500 since he is taking offers, ask for as much tooling he is willing to throw in.  Then keep the best one and put the other 2 on your local Craigslist for $1250.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 22, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Pics #1, 5 and 6 look like the same machine. Missing Y-axis and one X-axis handwheel. Definitely well-used.
> #2, 3 and 4 look like the same same machine and seems complete and the most cared for. This is the one I'd focus on.
> 
> (as a complete aside I'm totally envious of what seems to be a decent used machinery market!)



Thanks for the input, much appreciated! Funny, I thought the table in #6 looked good (there appears to be some dust or something on it) and the one in #2 and #4 looked chewed up (I see what looks like chipped corners on the way channels). I think I need to go see these in person.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 22, 2020)

Cadillac STS said:


> Try to buy the best 3 for $2500 since he is taking offers, ask for as much tooling he is willing to throw in.  Then keep the best one and put the other 2 on your local Craigslist for $1250.



I thought of that! I think I can only carry two in my truck, though. I thought I could buy more than one and take the best pieces and make one really good machine then sell the others.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 22, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> Thanks for the input, much appreciated! Funny, I thought the table in #6 looked good (there appears to be some dust or something on it) and the one in #2 and #4 looked chewed up (I see what looks like chipped corners on the way channels). I think I need to go see these in person.


I noticed the swarf/gunk/?? on the ways in pic 5 and thought that if that's indicative of the overall machine it wouldn't be great.
The proof in the pudding is going to be an in-person inspection. 

I personally would not try to mix and match among the machines unless it's non-critical items. The reason I say that is because of experiences I've had where parts from two identical used machines would not interchange because they had not 'worn' in together.


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## mickri (Oct 22, 2020)

I am real good at buying stuff and real lousy at selling stuff.  So I would not buy multiple machines in the hope of selling off extra machines at a profit.

If these were hot items the dealer would not be willing to make a deal.   There are three machines pictured.  Picture #1 is one machine.  #2,3 &4 are another machine and #5&6 are the third machine.  The 2nd and 3rd machines have stands which is a plus.  Although if the first machine is the best of the bunch I would ask for whichever stand you like to be part of the deal.  Jeff you are good at haggling with sellers.  Go look at them, see what extras he has and make an offer.  Walk out the door if he doesn't take your offer.

These look to be well used machines.  I wouldn't offer over $500 for any of them.  See what he has in the way of tooling and adjust your offer accordingly.


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## Aaron_W (Oct 22, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> *16. STAND (continued)*
> Chuck, thanks, that's awesome. The welder I talked to suggested I use the 2"/1/8" thick material since he uses a lot of it and has it lying around. I asked about thinner material but he said he wouldn't recommend it (probably because he has lots of the other stuff! Ha!). He mentioned angle iron, but didn't think it would be as stiff as the square tubing. Also, I'd like something that doesn't have the sharp corners.



Not that I have a ton of experience welding up mill stands, but I prefer square tubing as well. There are uses for angle iron, I used it to make a rolling base for my bandsaw, but in general I think square tubing is stiffer and has a neater appearance. I don't think cost is much of a factor for something like a stand.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 22, 2020)

The missing faceplates are a non-issue as David says.  You can use a piece of convenient sheet metal to fab up a replacement or a simpler cover panel.  That space is where I mounted my z-axis DRO, which is, as you said, perfect for it. The depth stop is worse than useless, you won't miss it if you delete it to do the same.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 23, 2020)

*17.*
I called him today to arrange to see them and the seller says he has two. I see at least 3 in the pictures so maybe he's sold some. Kind of a yellow flag if he says he has two, but has shown me 3. The covers are about $70 at Grizzly. I'm fine with fabbing one up, especially if I'm adding a DRO, but it's a negotiating point. He was able to find the part of the cover that came off.



He has a 5" Kurt vise that he wants $200 for and a 4" as well. Not a very good picture and I'm not sure which vise it is or if this is both of them.



The tables are not for sale, except he did indicate he might be willing to part with one. I'm going to look at these on Monday, since I didn't get done with work in enough time to get to the shop before it closed.
I'll try and get a deal on a mill and vise and see about a table, even though it's not tall enough. Chuck, I think the price is close to fair IF these are in decent shape, based on what is selling in this area, but of course I'm going to see how low I can go! Ha! It's about an hour drive without traffic, so I don't want to waste my time, but I think I need to see these in person; pictures just aren't going to cut it. 

Stay tuned!


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## ARC-170 (Oct 23, 2020)

*18. WHAT SIZE CLAMPING KIT SHOULD I GET?*

I think I know the answer, but just to confirm: the slots are 16mm wide at the top (per the manual I found online) which is about 5/8". So this kit from LMS would work, correct?
This one: https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3667&category=11

If there's more appropriate one, let me know. I actually haven't used the clamping kit much on my smaller mill, so maybe I don't need one yet.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 23, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I personally would not try to mix and match among the machines unless it's non-critical items. The reason I say that is because of experiences I've had where parts from two identical used machines would not interchange because they had not 'worn' in together.



I agree. I was just going to mix and match handles and such, nothing critical or that wear against anything else in any significant way. I should have probably been more clear.


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## mickri (Oct 23, 2020)

Same clamping kit at HF  https://www.harborfreight.com/58-pi...f-inch-clamps-5952.html?_br_psugg_q=clamp+kit


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## ARC-170 (Oct 23, 2020)

mickri said:


> Same clamping kit at HF  https://www.harborfreight.com/58-pi...f-inch-clamps-5952.html?_br_psugg_q=clamp+kit



Are you sure? The HF kit has 3/8-16 threads and the 5/8" kit has 1/2"-13. I'm surprised HF doesn't have a clamping kit this size, since I think they sell a similar mill.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 23, 2020)

I thought you might like to see where I'm putting this mill. I Photoshopped the SketchUp drawing into a photo of my garage. The perspective isn't quite right, but close enough.
I had to move the metal shelving and make it double wide. I may just sell it. There is a table saw to the right. You can see the ON/OFF paddle and wood on the table. There is 36" between the white column and the shelf. The Queen's Chariot is just out of the picture on the left. My car is behind the mill (it has a cover on it). I think I'll need to add some sort of back piece to keep stuff off the car.


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## mickri (Oct 23, 2020)

Oops.  Me bad.  I was just looking at the number of pieces and did catch the size difference.  Sorry.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 24, 2020)

I would recommend taking the $200 Kurt 5" under some serious consideration.  You can't even buy Chinese for that price.


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## Aaron_W (Oct 24, 2020)

Precision Matthews and All Industrial also have clamping kits in the $50-60 range. I have one of the All Industrial kits, and it isn't bad for the price, looks like it may be the same one LMS sells. PM's kit is in a case, if you don't like the standard caddy most of these kits come in.

Precision Matthews 16mm - 5/8" clamping kit

All Industrial 5/8" clamping kit


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## ARC-170 (Oct 24, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> I would recommend taking the $200 Kurt 5" under some serious consideration.  You can't even buy Chinese for that price.



*12. VISE (continued)*
Shars.com has some: #202-1001 ($126), #202-1022 ($97), #202-1022A ($97), and #202-1001A ($126). *Are these the same thing or different?* I'm not familiar with a "lockdown vise".

I will, however, try to get a deal on the Kurt, so thanks for the input. The seller says he needs to get $200 for it, but maybe I can get it as part of a package. Can't hurt to ask. *What if it's not a "real" Kurt, but a copy? Does that affect the price?*


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## ARC-170 (Oct 24, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Precision Matthews and All Industrial also have clamping kits in the $50-60 range. I have one of the All Industrial kits, and it isn't bad for the price, looks like it may be the same one LMS sells. PM's kit is in a case, if you don't like the standard caddy most of these kits come in.
> 
> Precision Matthews 16mm - 5/8" clamping kit
> 
> All Industrial 5/8" clamping kit



Thanks for sending these! I've been looking for a better way to store the clamping kits. I posted awhile ago looking for alternatives, but everyone seems happy with the little shelf unit/caddy these all come with. I don't mind having them on the mill table, but I don't use them all the time and it would be nice to put them in a drawer out of the way. 
I checked prices and shipping and these would be about $82 shipped. I might just make a tray that fits in the drawer for them.


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## mickri (Oct 24, 2020)

12. vises
They are the same vise.  The difference is that the 1001 model has a swivel base.  Do not know what the "A" stands for.  Most people say bail on the swivel base.  My Shars 4" vise came with a swivel base.  I bought it on sale for under a $100.  I don't use the vise with the base.  I made a backing plate for the swivel base that fits the chucks on my lathe.  I don't use it much but it has come in handy at times.  I call it a rotary positioner.  I use it like a rotary table.  If you have a rotary table I would bail on the swivel base.

The lock down feature pushes with a downward force when tightening the jaws.  This holds the work better.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 24, 2020)

Looking forward to hearing what happens with your negotiations 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ARC-170 (Oct 25, 2020)

mickri said:


> 12. vises
> They are the same vise.  The difference is that the 1001 model has a swivel base.  Do not know what the "A" stands for.  Most people say bail on the swivel base.  My Shars 4" vise came with a swivel base.  I bought it on sale for under a $100.  I don't use the vise with the base.  I made a backing plate for the swivel base that fits the chucks on my lathe.  I don't use it much but it has come in handy at times.  I call it a rotary positioner.  I use it like a rotary table.  If you have a rotary table I would bail on the swivel base.
> 
> The lock down feature pushes with a downward force when tightening the jaws.  This holds the work better.



To clarify: are they the same as the Kurt vise? Does the Kurt have the "lockdown" feature? I knew the Shars vises were all just variations of the same thing. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## mickri (Oct 25, 2020)

Kurt vises have the lockdown feature.  I believe they were the first to have this feature.  That said a kurt vise is better made than the ones from Shars.  How much better I don't know.  Probably will keep their tolerances longer.

When I got my Shars vise I took it apart looking for any casting flaws, etc.  Didn't find anything that looked wrong so I put it back together.  One thing that I have noticed with my Shars vice when dialing it in is that the center of the fixed jaw between the screws runs true and then there is a slight thousand or so change on the very outside edge of the jaw.  Until I realized this it was frustrating trying to get the fixed jaw dialed in.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 26, 2020)

world of difference between Kurt/ high end Homge/ Glacern vises and standard Shars or worse vises. I have a basic Shars. It's fine, but I spent a bunch of time on it and still get work lift at the rear as the stationary jaws rocks backwards every so slightly. $200 for a 4 or 5" Kurt (if it is a Kurt) is a good price, I've only ever seen one for sale for less than that.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 26, 2020)

*UPDATE:*
I bought the mill and the Kurt vise (and got a free t-shirt!) for $975. I'll post pictures later. Maybe 0.001" of "play" in the spindle (I remembered to lock it this time). There's about 0.005" to 0.010" of backlash in the x and y screws. It sounded good when I ran it. Everything else was solid as far as I could tell. The front panel on both the machines was broken. The depth gages are fine, though. The table was fine. What looks like nicks and scratches in the photos is just paint and dirt.
I think I'll start a new thread after I post pictures in this one and reference it from this one for those who'd like to buy one and may have the same questions. Unless you all think I should just keep this one going? Maybe I could ask a moderator to add something on the first post about how this started as a "asking questions" thread and turned into a "RF buying, unloading, setting up, etc" thread. Whatever would be most helpful to readers.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 26, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> *UPDATE:*
> I bought the mill and the Kurt vise (and got a free t-shirt!) for $975. I'll post pictures later. Maybe 0.001" of "play" in the spindle (I remembered to lock it this time). There's about 0.005" to 0.010" of backlash in the x and y screws. It sounded good when I ran it. Everything else was solid as far as I could tell. The front panel on both the machines was broken. The depth gages are fine, though. The table was fine. What looks like nicks and scratches in the photos is just paint and dirt.
> I think I'll start a new thread after I post pictures in this one and reference it from this one for those who'd like to buy one and may have the same questions. Unless you all think I should just keep this one going? Maybe I could ask a moderator to add something on the first post about how this started as a "asking questions" thread and turned into a "RF buying, unloading, setting up, etc" thread. Whatever would be most helpful to readers.



Congratulations and well done. Sounds like you got a good machine! Welcome to the RF club. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mickri (Oct 27, 2020)

My vote is to start a new thread on unloading, setting it up and any repairs/mods you make.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 27, 2020)

congrats, that's a decent price. Looking forward to the arrival photos


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## yendor (Oct 27, 2020)

Step # 1 in that I just bought a Machine adventure:
You will most likely need to do some disassembly to move it to it's new home so....Strip it down, clean it up, lube it all over then enjoy it.


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## ARC-170 (Oct 27, 2020)

*CONCLUSION*
Thanks everyone for your help an input. I will start a new thread documenting my adventures with this machine.


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## rock_breaker (Dec 27, 2020)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the general appearance of the table top. Holes and grooves can tell a lot about the machines previous life. If you haven't operated a  mill with power feed and do end up with power feed you will be pleasantly surprised. No doubt you have seen them advertised at approx. $450.
Have a good day
Ray
P S The support stand on my Enco 105-1117 is wider than the mill base by approx. 3" on each side and I think that is a good feature.


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## ARC-170 (Dec 27, 2020)

rock_breaker said:


> One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the general appearance of the table top. Holes and grooves can tell a lot about the machines previous life. If you haven't operated a  mill with power feed and do end up with power feed you will be pleasantly surprised. No doubt you have seen them advertised at approx. $450.
> Have a good day
> Ray
> P S The support stand on my Enco 105-1117 is wider than the mill base by approx. 3" on each side and I think that is a good feature.



The table looks really good. I think this was used for some sort of second op. I found a bunch if really small drill bits in various places when I was cleaning it up.

Yeah, I'd eventually like to get a power feed. I've started doing research, too. 

I made my support stand about 10" wider on each side.

I started a thread about setting up the machine, etc. Here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/my-adventures-with-my-rf-30.87976/


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