# Off grid shop



## Jim F (Dec 23, 2020)

Keep politics out of this,
This is theoretical right now.
If someone wanted to live in virtual isolation, and needed to make their own stuff, what would be the best power source?
Solar, wind,water wheel ?
any other options ?


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## matthewsx (Dec 24, 2020)

Water, it’s what they used before electricity.


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## Jim F (Dec 24, 2020)

We could include, a power failure in civilization.


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## Aaron_W (Dec 24, 2020)

Depends on location. In the desert solar or wind will be primary, maybe even possible to work with a Sterling engine which operates off the principle of heat differentials. Some of the Scandinavian countries have been making use of Sterling engines to generate electricity, by basically scavenging waste heat on the inside and the cold outside. Same idea might work in a desert environment but in reverse.

There has been a lot of advancement with water power. The classic water wheel being turned in a river that most think of is an example of a low head, high volume system. A lot of modern water wheels are high head, low volume.

Several years ago I was on a fire and ended up working around a small resort, consisting of the owners house, a common building (kitchen, bathrooms etc), some storage buildings (it was a river kayaking resort) and about 1/2 dozen cabins.
I got to chatting with the owner and as I am a bit of a geek about alternate energy he showed me the system that they used. The bulk of his electricity came from a small 4-6" water wheel / turbine (Pelton wheel). It was supplied with water through a normal size (3/4", 1" maybe) PVC pipe from a spring a couple hundred feet up the hill. He used Solar panels to charge a battery bank for additional power and to provide some surge capacity. He said the water power was usually enough to run everything.

This area was very "off grid" all the homes in the area had to supply their own utilities. Water power was very popular being a river canyon and it was kind of neat to see the modern pipelines often running alongside the remains of water channels that had been used to supply water to the monitors used for hydraulic gold mining in the 1850s.

It is very common to see multiple sources of power since most natural power supplies fluctuate throughout the year and even daily.

You can also create a natural gas from wood chips, and other dry carbon sources (dried trash, food scraps, the bones of your enemies etc). There are even DIY gassifier kits that can be used to power a generator or vehicle. The gas made through the process is very similar to the coal gas used in the 1800s for gas lights.


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## C-Bag (Dec 24, 2020)

Another source because we are drowning in plastic literally is YouTube has many vids on converting plastic to diesel. What’s cool is the process powers itself from the off gassing of the plastic once it gets up to temp.


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## kb58 (Dec 24, 2020)

Agree 100% with "it depends upon location." Us recommending solar isn't going to help if "someone" in a perpetually cloudy location near the Arctic Circle. What's the location like?

Also, since you're asking for free advice, it helps to not come across as overly controlling and demanding. "Keep politics out of this" doesn't come across as a polite request, but a demand.


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## Bi11Hudson (Dec 24, 2020)

Without (wrong word) coming off as a "nay sayer", serious thought must be applied to going "off grid". A single person, even a small family, would not easily run such an operation. I have studied the possibilities (as an engineer) for a long time. And still don't have a plausable answer. I do have _my_ "system" worked out for what _suits me_. But now I'm an old man and confined to a wheelchair. So all that work and planning has gone "out the window". Any such operation would take three or four men and a half dozen little boys.

Imagine yourself in a "Back To The Future Pt3(?)" scenario. Consider what would be available "off the shelf". Having an "IC" engine, diesel or gasoline, to generate power for electricity would be nice, but. . . Either requires fuel. Gasoline is pretty much out of the question. Diesel can be made from plant oils. Making diesel is time consuming, even more so when you consider tending the crop from which the oil is derived. Lard will as a lubricant work for slower engines, but not high speed IC engines.

Then there are the alternatve electrical sources; wind, water, solar, and the like. To get a couple of thousand watts (2+ HP) *continuously* would take an enormous plant and constant attention. Add a large battery bank (with limited life span), inverter, and the appurtinate hardware. Again, there goes your time.

The next step *down* the ladder would be gasifier engines, "hot air" engines and steam. All require a fire, read as firewood. Time consuming, physically demanding, steady source, etc. Firewood would be from an axe, no chain saws. Fuel, chain lube, etc. Plus transport. No tractor and wagon, a horse or mule is about the limit to pull a drag.

Gasifier devices require regular attention, hot air engines do have some down sides, and steam is *very* hazardous. For what it's worth, hot air engines are a little older than steam engines, from the late 18th century. They have been used as marine propulsion engines. The size versus a steam engine was untenable, steam winning out. Just as IC engines won out over steam. And turbines over reciprocating engines. Ad infinitum, ad nausium. . .

Again, step *down* the ladder, to animal and water power. And nowhere yet is the time to do machine work. Think it through well, long term technology is time consuming. And resource demanding. Staying alive and keeping the house warm becomes the big issue.

.


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## NC Rick (Dec 24, 2020)

Time to build a full scale "model steam engine"?  That along with solar panels for lights and minor draws.  Everyone was "off-grid" for most of human history so life style changes are assured.  I plan to stay "on the grid" as long as I possibly can.


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## Jim F (Dec 24, 2020)

When I watched TV, there was a show on Discovery I believe, called "Homestead Rescue", this is why I asked.
Marty Raney came up with some cool ideas for those off grid homesteads.
None of them had a shop type scenario though.


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## Jim F (Dec 24, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Water, it’s what they used before electricity.


How cool would it be to have a small line shaft driven shop at home ?


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## C-Bag (Dec 24, 2020)

Like Bi11 I’ve pondered the idea of off grid for decades and you see very few who make anything in metal unless it’s blacksmithing. I’ve been to several off grid places and the major drawback is the isolation. I hate having to break my momentum to go get a part or something. And they burn a LOT of fuel and time getting in and out.  i agree a nearby creek or river to harness would be wonderful to add to wind and solar. Just to have a water wheel to run a line shaft shop is a wet dream. So is steam like the setup Old Steam Powered Machine Shop has. But I would have had to start 2-30yrs ago at the rate I get things done


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## kb58 (Dec 24, 2020)

To the OP, what's your "theoretical budget?" That right there probably answers all the questions.

It's quite true that society was all off-grid at one time, but using that as a reason doesn't wash since so much else has changed. Are you going to power a 3hp mill and 5hp lathe with this power source? As others have said, unless there are several of you and you're young and strong, it's a fantasy without sufficient budget.

Since I'm spending the OP's budget, move to where there's geothermal heat, bore a well and power your own steam generation setup, plus you have heat and water to boot. All it takes is $$$$$$


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## Jim F (Dec 24, 2020)

It is all theoretical.


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## C-Bag (Dec 24, 2020)

Theoretical $$$=infinite, and time being instantaneous


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## Flyinfool (Dec 24, 2020)

Location also matters in that some states actually have laws against being totally off grid. It is the utilities that will find you and turn you in. Then you will have to pay to have wires run to your off grid location.


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## ddickey (Dec 24, 2020)

Uranium, yeah definitely uranium.


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## Asm109 (Dec 24, 2020)

What kind of stuff do you want to make?  What is your source for raw materials. Or do you need to procure those in isolation as well?  
In other words, how committed to this Off grid concept are you?


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## samstu (Dec 24, 2020)

Diesel generator.  Universal fuel.  Simplicity is reliability.  Start with it while you think about / build solar, wind, wood gas, perpetual motion etc.  Then use it when others break down or if you need to run a big mill, lathe, air conditioner etc.  Not that the others are bad or not workable, but there's a reason the military standardized on diesel.


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## Aaron_W (Dec 24, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> Another source because we are drowning in plastic literally is YouTube has many vids on converting plastic to diesel. What’s cool is the process powers itself from the off gassing of the plastic once it gets up to temp.



Yes there is a whole range of products that can be made from a similar process. Bio oil, charcoal and syngas (generic name for wood gas / coal gas), are all by products created by heating the material. The oldest recorded use created charcoal used as a soil improvement in prehistoric South America in the Amazon region. In ancient Egypt they used the process to create a thick bio-oil based tar used to seal their boats. In the 1800s the process was used to create syngas to power gas lights. During both World Wars there were vehicles converted to run off of gasifier systems. Bio-oil can be used as a petroleum stuck and refined into more usable fuels. In its unrefined form it can be used as heating oil, with only slight modification to the stock equipment.
In the early 2000s there was a company making bio-oil based diesel fuel from turkey carcasses.
This last project was almost cost effective when diesel fuel was over $5 / gallon and they were able to get free turkey carcasses from processing plants. The end for them came when fuel prices came back down and the processing plants which previously had been paying to get rid of the waste products, so somebody taking it for free was a deal, figured out there was a value to their waste and they started charging for it.

Generally the unwanted materials are burned to power the process. There is a requirement for an outside source of heat to get started, but once it is going it can be self sustaining. The critical factor being that the material must be dry, so it is necessary to run a dryer to maintain feed stock. Any carbon form may be used, plastic, wood, animal waste (yep you can use poop as well as scraps of the animals themselves). There has been some work looking at these processes to make logging leftovers and brush clearing more cost efficient. Currently much is burned in place because it costs to much to haul it away. Wood chips are more compact than the bulk waste, and within a relatively short travel radius can be an effective fuel for co-gen electric plants. Bio-oil or syngas created on the spot would be an even more compact form which in the future may prove to be an effective way to get rid of the excess woody material. Currently it is stuck in an experimental chicken and egg situation. There is no large scale market for bio-oil, so no money to develop the infrastructure. There is no market, because the product isn't being made...


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## Aaron_W (Dec 24, 2020)

Also there is a big difference between going off grid in the modern world where you can buy everything you need to go off grid, and Amazon stuff to the door, and going off grid because society collapsed (Y2K, nuclear war, zombies etc) where you have to make it all up from what you can scrounge.

My assumption was going off grid just to get away from it all.

There are a lot of off grid homes in Northern California and Hawaii. Some are all solar or water, some just run a generator (diesel or propane) with a battery bank when they need electrical power, and go without the rest of the time. LEDs have been a great asset for off grid living, because light is one of the major needs for electric power, and LEDs consume very little.


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## Dhal22 (Dec 24, 2020)

Any hydro power research should include the Ocoee River hydroelectric system in Tennessee.  I've been white water rafting there a few times (which is only allowed during peak summer) and the 100+ year old wooden flume for hydro power is an engineering masterpiece.  Nothing like it anywhere in the world.


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## MikeInOr (Dec 25, 2020)

Converting mechanical energy to electrical energy, sending it over wires then converting the electrical energy back to mechanical energy is not all that efficient.  Bypassing the electrical conversions might save a lot of wasted energy.


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## NC Rick (Dec 25, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Also there is a big difference between going off grid in the modern world where you can buy everything you need to go off grid, and Amazon stuff to the door, and going off grid because society collapsed (Y2K, nuclear war, zombies etc) where you have to make it all up from what you can scrounge.
> 
> My assumption was going off grid just to get away from it all.
> 
> There are a lot of off grid homes in Northern California and Hawaii. Some are all solar or water, some just run a generator (diesel or propane) with a battery bank when they need electrical power, and go without the rest of the time. LEDs have been a great asset for off grid living, because light is one of the major needs for electric power, and LEDs consume very little.


Lathe, milling machines, saws, welders and drills do draw a bit.  Can have a low duty cycle.  A propane tank and a generator to backup the solar. For machining projects.


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## Aaron_W (Dec 25, 2020)

NC Rick said:


> Lathe, milling machines, saws, welders and drills do draw a bit.  Can have a low duty cycle.  A propane tank and a generator to backup the solar. For machining projects.



Battery banks work well to absorb large but short burst loads, like motors starting up. The fire station I retired from was off grid on a propane fired generator, they converted to solar the year after I retired. I started the process for the conversion, but it took about 5 years to work its way through the system. They unofficially named the solar field after me.   

We had a 30kW generator, mostly because of the HVAC start up, once it was going we probably could have got by with a 15-20kW.
This helped sell the solar, which had a battery bank included in the system, they were able to put in a much smaller system than with the generator because the batteries soak up the short peak usage. They still have a smaller back up generator just in case of extended poor conditions, but apparently it doesn't get used much beyond firing it up once a week to make sure it works.  

An auxiliary generator for occasional use needs, like shop equipment works well, and there are many options to fuel them depending on how much self-sufficiency is desired or required. You can even buy a gasifiers on Amazon to power a generator with wood.

If you have a bunch of kids this would be an option to keep your battery bank charged.  




Bicycle generator

I actually worked with a girl whose dad was a radio tech, also very cheap (way beyond frugal). She said when she was a kid he rigged up a bicycle generator to the TV. If the kids wanted to watch TV they had to pedal.


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