# Clausing 5917, 440 to 220 conversion



## usamech (Apr 9, 2022)

All,

Recently got a Clausing 5917, s/n 500871, (1962 or so).  Its a 1hp/3ph, which came out of a shop wired for 440.  It has a newer Dayton motor (208/220/440) on data plate, and newer power cord, 3 wire with gnd, (red, black, white, green).  Confirmed on motor junction box, it's absolutely wired for 440, as depicted in wiring diagram.

Need to convert to 220 for use in my shed with 60amp service.  I think I know what I need to do, but just want to double check:
1.  Rewire motor box per diagram.
2.  Leave reversing switch alone.
3.  New 4 prong plug and socket as seen.
4. 30 amp double pole breaker for panel.
5. 10/3 wire with gnd, 25' run, with insulated or bare gnd?


As long as I satisfy the above, are the bases covered regarding 3-phase?    Am I missing anything?

Thanks in advance!


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## markba633csi (Apr 9, 2022)

Yes it looks like just following the diagram is all you need to do
Bare ground should be fine I would think- might even be slightly cheaper
A 20 amp breaker would be more than sufficient for 10 ga wire
-M


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## usamech (Apr 9, 2022)

Just noticed as I’m rewiring motor box now.    

On diagram for 440V at bottom of page; Yellow actually goes to T2 and NOT the circled #1,  Brown actually goes to T3 and not the circled 2; and Purple actually goes to T1, and not the circled 3.  (4-7,5-8, and 6-9, are per diagram.)

So to wire for 220, I guess I should stick to the top diagram and go Yellow to actual T3 and T9, etc?  Thanks again!


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## markba633csi (Apr 9, 2022)

The three power leads brn, yel, and purp might be connected in any order which may differ from the diagram. This may have been done to reverse the direction instead of swapping leads at the switch.  
Don't be concerned, just follow the diagram and if the direction is inverted it can be corrected by swapping any 2 of those either at the motor or the switch


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## JimDawson (Apr 9, 2022)

And you do have 3 phase power in your shed?  I'm a little confused here.


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## usamech (Apr 9, 2022)

Do I have three phase? I don’t know. My shed has 60 amp service from my house main box. One conduit; 6/4, two black to busbar, one red taped white (neutral), other red taped green to gnd.  

I don’t really understand how to apply “3 phase” to what I’m doing, or if I should even be concerned.  

As I understand it, correctly re-wire the motor for 220 per diagram, connect a new 220 plug, and add 
the 220 wall socket correctly to 10/3 wire from my panel, and the machine figures it out from there?

In summary, the existing lathe wiring matches the bottom diagram, and I need to re-wire it for the top diagram.


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## woodchucker (Apr 9, 2022)

NOOOOOOOOOOOO


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## JimDawson (Apr 9, 2022)

OK, you don't have 3 phase power, yes you need to be concerned.  That motor is not going to run directly off of the single phase mains.

For that small of a motor a static phase converter would work with the loss of about 1/3 of the motor power.  The other option is to install a VFD to run the motor.  The VFD might be less expensive than the static phase converter, and no loss of power.

This one would work fine, just program the motor name plate current properly.
https://www.amazon.com/Huanyang-1-5KW-Variable-Frequency-Inverter/dp/B09FZ1RLK7/ref=sr_1_6?crid=3HDD8W0YQTLD9&keywords=huanyang+inverter&qid=1649541709&sprefix=haungyang,aps,156&sr=8-6&th=1

There may be some other wiring changes needed to run on 240V


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## usamech (Apr 9, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> OK, you don't have 3 phase power, yes you need to be concerned.  That motor is not going to run directly off of the single phase mains.
> 
> For that small of a motor a static phase converter would work with the loss of about 1/3 of the motor power.  The other option is to install a VFD to run the motor.  The VFD might be less expensive than the static phase converter, and no loss of power.
> 
> ...


Ok, pretty clear I don't understand industrial pwr!  

So, from here, continue the motor wire change to 220.   Same 10/3 wire plan and wall outlet.  VFD plugs into 220 outlet.  And VFD connects to lathe pwr cord per instructions....? I'll order it up and do some reading.  I read thru a bunch of posts on vfd's prior to this, but got lost after the first paragraph... perhaps because I thought it wouldn't apply to me.


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## JimDawson (Apr 9, 2022)

usamech said:


> And VFD connects to lathe pwr cord per instructions



Not exactly.  The VFD must be connected directly to the motor.  The power cord could be connected directly to the VFD, but most likely there will be some other wiring to be done.  It depends on how the lathe is wired and what electrical controls are on the lathe, disconnect switches, power controls, etc.

We will have to know more about the original lathe controls before we can really help you wade through this.  It's not hard, but has to be done correctly.  We'll need some pictures of what is there now.


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## matthewsx (Apr 9, 2022)

A static phase converter will be fine for your application and I doubt you’ll miss the power lost by using one. 

I’m running one from these guys and it does the trick without changing the control wiring.









						Static Phase Converters
					

Static Phase Converters   A static phase converter is used to generate 3 phase power during the starting of a motor.  A static phase converter consists of one or more start capacitors and a start relay.  The start capacitors produce electricity across the third winding of a motor during start up,




					www.northamericaphaseconverters.com
				




Static can be changed to a rotary later but to get you up and running quickly this is your best bet IMHO.

John


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## usamech (Apr 9, 2022)

I’ve got the covers off right now looking things over. The sum total of all the electrics on this machine are as depicted in the diagram I posted. Only one more circuit and that is simply a table lamp with a 110 plug which I’m not concerned about.

I can still send pics if you like. But the only difference from the original wiring diagram is that the power supply is now four wire, black, red, white and green. Simply goes into the junction box as depicted, splits off to the reversing switch and then to the motor where it ends.

Already ordered the VFD which should be in next week. I will try to figure it out from there and surely get back if I need more info.  

Re the phase converter, (and the vfd as well), this is all a magic (theory & application) that I don't understand.  I don't know the pro's/con's, degree of difficulty to set up for each, or enough to even compare and contrast.  Anyone know any links which simplify the explanation, tutorials, differences, etc? 

All in all, I’m truly grateful for all the help!


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## matthewsx (Apr 9, 2022)

None of this is magic but it will require some effort to learn.

Your home wiring will start out as 220v single phase, this machine is designed to run on 220v or 440v three phase. Completely different things which should not be confused.

The lathe wiring assumes you have three phase and it's designed for that. If you want to switch over to a VFD you will run the 220v single phase into the VFD and it will produce 220v three phase power [WHICH MUST BE CONNECTED DIRECTLY TO THE MOTOR]. All controls will then go through the VFD rather than how your machine is configured now.

@mksj is arguably the resident expert at making these conversions on this forum and you can learn a lot about converting equipment to run three phase motors by reading his posts. It is a good thing but not trivial at all. I currently have 2 lathes which run on VFD's and one mill which uses a static converter. Converting my lathes was easy because they didn't have any internal wiring and I can just hook up the motors and go. I chose a static converter for my Hardinge mill because it has very involved internal wiring and I wanted to keep it functioning as designed.

If you want to keep things simple buy one of the static converters I posted above and hook that directly to your lathes existing wiring, you can't do this with a VFD (it may work, but not well and you may fry the VFD). If you want a project that will end up with a infinitely variable, modern digital controlled machine then go down the VFD path but be prepared to buy quite a few other items and learn about wiring and VFD programming. Otherwise get a static (or rotary) converter and start making chips right away.

Either way will work and we'll be happy to assist with whatever advice you need.

John


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## Janderso (Apr 9, 2022)

Usamech,
You’ve come to the right place.
I chose a rotary phase converter to run my three, 3 phase machines. Most of us do not have 3 phase power but there are affordable options.
If you plan to acquire more three phase machines, just know each machine will require a VFD. As I understand it 
Cheers


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## mmcmdl (Apr 10, 2022)

Glad to see the move was OK .   You had the loading process planned out to the tee if I may say so ! Post your pics when you are able . I bought a 3 HP VFD for hooking it up in the garage , think it was just about $100 or so . The grinder most likely will be leaving this Friday so more space in the garage , and the Bridgeport may be going next . That 5917 was a nice sized lathe , I know you'll enjoy it , and if I find anything else for it down here when cleaning up , I'll get it to you . If I do get back into the basement I'm going back to a RPC as I had in the past FWIW . Following along , and we like pics !


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## usamech (Apr 11, 2022)

All,

So, the way it looks for now, I have a VFD on order, and I'm looking at ordering an RPC as well.  Kind of leaning toward the RPC in the long run.  I like the idea of operating the machine by its original intent, especially considering I'm new at this game.  Since lathe is only 1hp, I want to recover as much as possible of that 1hp.  Got some good insight from another similar post in late March regarding "_VFD, rotary phase_..."  

Never had a reason to research the two options since I was a long way away from that bridge, but I'm there now, and I don't think it'll be too complicated.  (Although my wife would say, if there's anyone who can make a job harder than it is, I'm the perfect candidate.  People say I tend to overthink things, but I tend to disagree--I just think things thru.)

So, the lathe is a 1hp motor, I need an RPC with idler that's over 1hp, and to make room for a second machine (guessing a 2hp or so mill) in future, sounds like an RPC with a 5hp idler is the way to go?  What should bare minimum be?  These things noisy?  Any brand less noisy than others?  Got some reading to do.  Will still have to leave all options on table pending $. 

Yes Dave, I'll post something on the lathe move.  May have to re-create a couple pic's since I didn't really take any during the pick-up.  Thanks again!


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## mksj (Apr 11, 2022)

There are many benefits of using a 3 phase motor over single phase in machinery, but 3 phase power is not readily available in a residential setting.

RPC should be sized at least 2X the Hp of the motor you want to run, but depends on the equipment/load on startup. So 5 Hp would be a good size for 1-2 Hp motors. Different RPC manufactures have calculators that tell you which model they recommend. Many people just buy the RPC control box (around $150-200) and source the idler motor locally, I would recommend a 1750RPM idler as they tend to be a bit quieter. A cast iron motor TEBC or TENV should be quieter then an open motor design.  You still need some basic electrical wiring knowledge to hook it up and getting the appropriate size wire and breakers.

Always remember that with a RPC there are 3 electrical legs (i.e. 3 phase), 2 are the 240VAC legs that is passed through to the RPC output and the 3rd is the generated or wild leg. Neutral should never be used, but you still must ground everything. The 3rd generated leg cannot be used to power the control transformer or any electronics as the voltage varies quite a bit with load (i.e. wild leg).  If you are just using a rotary switch to directly wire the RPC output to the motor, then it doesn't matter. Last but not least, you need to factor in that with an RPC, you will need a bigger breaker/service to power the idler and associated down stream 3 phase motor(s) so more cost, it runs continuously so increased noise/power consumption, and it keeps running until you turn off the power. Many people add a reminder light,  timers or have a contactor wired to the shop lights so when you shut off the lights it drops out a latching contactor powering the RPC.

On a VFD, depending on the brand, how it is wired and programed, one issue is that it could restart inadvertently say if the power went out or you hit an E-Stop and then reset it. VFD's take very little power in standby mode, are quiet and very efficient, but require a bit more work to install properly and safely. They provide smoother starts and controlled braking (latter usually requires a separate braking resistor), you get variable speed, but it is not the same as a mechanical gearbox, as you decrease the motor speed below 60Hz the Hp decreasing and the motor torque is decreased because you loose the mechanical advantage. So OK for say threading but not OK for heavy cuts. VFD driven machines often compensate for the loss of power by using bigger motors (which also require bigger VFD's). Last but not least, VFD's need to meet minimum requirements to power a motor/drive system, they come in many variations/types/loads. A VFD may be rated for 3 Hp with one load type like variable torque, but most machinery you want constant torque, and if difficult load it may only be rated for 2 Hp. VFD's are also rated for either single phase input power or 3 phase input power, the latter when used on single phase is often derated by a factor of 2 or more.


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## usamech (May 28, 2022)

Ok, so I got some things figured out--Many Thanks to those before me posting here!

I went with an AR5 (5hp) RPC from American Rotary.  About 550$ delivered w/i just a few days.  Little pricey, but I didn't want the trial and err of putting together a system myself.  Only running a lathe now, but expect to add a mill, and I believe the AR5 is sufficient.  Would never be running both at same time.  

I considered a VFD but ruled that out after I got one on Amazon.  Got one and just couldn't understand the 60 pages of English.  Instructions looked more like engineer coding.  Really could not even find anything in the literature that said it was a variable frequency drive.  Thought I got the wrong item shipped, but per the order details on Amazon, it was a VFD.  Read a sticky post on another machining forum that this brand would not even be discussed due to reliability issues or something, so I returned it as fast as I could.  I probably didn't give it a fair chance, because I know there are enough good minds on this site that would help me through it.  I just couldn't make sense of it, and the RPC seemed much less complex.  (With the noise of my RPC now... Hmmm) 

Not an electrician, so I'm sure there are corrections/changes that could be made, but I believe it's safe.  
Please feel free to critique as I would expect that you're looking out for my better interest.  I had a licensed electrician of 35 years, family friend, look over my plan and critique prior to installation.  Haven't shown him results yet.  

I used Romex 10/3 w bare ground for entire route (this crap is hard to snake--really stiff).  Yes, its a shed, originally built on a house foundation code, 30" footers, single pour, above grade, etc.  This Romex NM-B is considered "indoor wire".  Original shed rough electrical inspection for 60amp/240 panel 20 years ago was approved, with similar uncovered wiring (No EMT conduit).  So its just like wiring in my attached garage.  Yeah, I'm trying to justify it.  Considered EMT but my electrician said not necessary, unless I wired single core THNN/THWN. 

From main panel to RPC panel, 30amp, double pole breaker.  The white neutral is capped/wire nutted (not used) between main panel and RPC.    The wiring was actually pretty simple.  I did not use a disconnect box between main panel and RPC as I've seen people suggest.  Open to critique on that.  I just unplug the lathe from wall socket when done.  20amp breaker on 3phase panel.  

Fired that sucker up, and...Wow!  Was really expecting a quieter idler motor.  Very deep humm to it.  I'll get used to it.  Been wearing ear plugs for over 40 years (even when vacuming house).  Seen remarks about some people employing various devices to insure it's turned off before turning out the lights.  Nope, not going to forget it with the humm it makes.  Also thinking much of this comes from the vibration?  As seen in pics, its wall-mounted on rubber pads.  Can feel the vibration on the 2x12" base.  Maybe not solid enough?  Would this be any different if floor-mounted on concrete with lag screws?  Any remedies to this? 

Ironic that I thought the Clausing lathe would be noisy and the RPC quieter--quite the opposite.  Turned on the lathe and noise went down some, but the lathe purred like a kitten.  Very smooth--its a 12x36" early 1962 model.  Was pleasantly surprised!  

Initial unloaded readings: T1-2 at 240, T1-3 at 262, and T2-3 at 275.  Loaded T1-2 at 240, T1-3 at 252, and T2-3 at 257.  I expected these readings to be closer?  All ok here?  

Finally, the lathe has been in storage for a couple years, and the oil cup/reservoir was dry.  Just added, didn't bleed it.  Just turned it on to see if it works.  The vari-speed hydraulics needs attention.  In both high speed and backdrive, stuck on lowest rpm of 50 and 350 respectively.  This is a very early model, before the green epoxy, and perhaps around the short time Clausing used a black colored coating or something.  The pulley is on the inboard side of the cabinet, not outboard like most.  Anyway, with a mirror the pully looks has a shiny near chrome-like appearance.


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## markba633csi (May 28, 2022)

You've created a perfect sounding board for the RPC motor- no wonder the thing is loud 
Extend the wires and put it on the floor, I think you will notice a considerable reduction in noise level
-M
ps as an easier compromise, simply turning the motor 90 degrees on the platform might give some improvement


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## usamech (May 29, 2022)

Thanks!

RE Vibration, I'll try to rotate it 90 degrees.  I considered floor mounting, but like most everyone, space is a premium.  

I could even build a sound absorbing box around it, but now have to consider how to cool a heat sink I created.  

This may seem crazy, but I even wondered about suspending it on four corners with cables and spring bungees that would absorb the initial counter-torque from initial start, loading, unloading, and return to a steady state neutral.  The motor would obviously move some, but it may be doable.  Lots of trial and error there.  I think if done properly, the suspension would absorb the vibration without transmitting it to a ceiling or wall structure.  Of course, would have to change the wire from stiff 10/3 to a SOOW (heavy duty flexible service cord) like the cord for my lathe that plugs in to the wall receptacle.  

We'll see how it goes.  Curious how others have mounted their idler motors.


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## woodchucker (May 29, 2022)

consider using 3/4 mdf in 2 layers for the base of the rotary motor. it does well to absorb sound, where ply magnifies it.
you may also consider homosote a small piece mounted between the frame and the wall, full size + an inch around, then bolt all the way as you have, that will also kill the wall sound.  Homosote is an excellent sound deadening material, and if you want try it instead of the mdf, use the homosote on both sides of your existing boards as the bread for a sandwich... it should also cut the noise down. amazing stuff homosote. it's used under drywall as a sound deadener.


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## usamech (May 29, 2022)

Good ideas.   So you saw I have the 2x12” mounted on plywood.  I did that fearing that vibration would eventually crack the board.


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## markba633csi (May 30, 2022)

There shouldn't be _that_ much vibration but the specs for the allowable amount could be pretty loose
Not easy to quantify either.
Most people put them on the floor but if you are space constrained you do what you have to


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## mike.sandyf (May 30, 2022)

JimDawson said:


> Not exactly.  The VFD must be connected directly to the motor.  The power cord could be connected directly to the VFD, but most likely there will be some other wiring to be done.  It depends on how the lathe is wired and what electrical controls are on the lathe, disconnect switches, power controls, etc.
> 
> We will have to know more about the original lathe controls before we can really help you wade through this.  It's not hard, but has to be done correctly.  We'll need some pictures of what is there now.


Wiring 220 single phase into the proposed VFD is straight forward as is the wiring from the VFD to the motor. However there are a number of programming steps to be completed on the VFD. The wiring diagrams that come with this VFD are easy to understand.  The programming instructions are difficult to understand because of the translation from Chinese to English.  However there are many threads on how to do this.  I just completed the same conversion you are trying on my lathe.  Dig through the past posts and you will find them.


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