# Heavy 10R Collet Decision



## omni_dilletante (Feb 24, 2014)

I would appreciate some help in deciding what kind of collets I should get...

My '40s vintage Heavy 10R has the 1-7/8 x 8tpi spindle.  This somewhat limits my collet options.

From my research I believe these are my options:


*Spindle Transplant*

First solution is to find a 10L spindle and bearings compatible with my lathe and perform a transplant.  That will allow me to pursue a 5C collet closer and collets which are much more plentiful.

I have looked for a while and have not seen any 10L spindles on the market.  Right now the lathe is pretty low hours and I am pretty sure the spindle and bearings are in great shape.  I have no plans on needing to pass anything larger then 1" through the spindle.  I am inclined not to attempt a spindle replacement.


*5C collet chuck*

There are several collet chuck options ranging from kits to finished chucks.  But these options seem to require a bit of machining as there does not seem to be a chuck back plate that fits my spindle.  I would prefer to get something I can use right away.


*2A Collets*

Although these are rare, I have found three different sets of 2A collets with a collet closer.  They run about $250-$400.  They come with 11 collets in 1/16th increments from 1/16th to 11/16th.  

I have not been able to find out how wide a range of diameters these collets will handle.  Will this selection of collets handle all parts between 1/16th and 11/16th?  I notice they make them in 1/64th increments.  This makes me nervous that I will find myself with a part that is in between the collets I have.

Finding replacement collets the correct size might be a chore as time goes on.


*ER40 Collets*

I have found a MT4 collet chuck and 23 ER40 collets from 1/8" to 1" in 1/16th increments and half the 1/32nd increments for $200.  I realize this limits me to short pieces, but I figure I can build a collet chuck similar to this Beall chuck once I have more experience.  

I have read some initially skeptical reviews of these chucks that ended on a very positive note.  I figure the quality will be adequate for my purposes.

From what I read the ER40 collets can handle a wider range of diameters.  The selection of sizes makes me feel that I am less likely to have a part that will not fit a collet.  (Although I find it curious it has 7, 11, 13, 17, 21, 25, 27 and 31/32nd collets but not 5, 9, 15, 19, 23, or 29/32nd collets).


*MT4 Collets *

There are many things I don't like about these collets.  The will not allow stock to pass through the head, and the idea of hammering the collet out of the spindle for every part change sets my teeth on edge.


I am kind of leaning toward the ER40 solution.  I am interested in hearing what others have to say.

Thanks.


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## wa5cab (Feb 25, 2014)

Omni,

First, I think you mean 5C, not 5A.  As far as I could find, there's no such thing as a 5A.

I wrote a screed a week or so ago for a Clausing owner with a very similar question and a machine with a 4MT spindle.  Have a look for that thread in the Clausing Forum.

I'll add because I didn't think to mention it there that collets of the MT or 5C general style have very little range of adjustment.  I.e., they are cut to fit the diameter marked on them +/- a few thou at most.  So if you have for example a 5C set in 1/16" increments you can't hold a 7/32" dia. rod safely or reliably.  So to pretty much cover anything you would want to hold up to 1-1/16" dia., you would have to have a 1/64" increment set which is 68 collets.  The ER style, on the other hand, hold and squeeze in at both ends of the collet and except for the smallest sizes usually have a rated range of about 1mm (slightly over 1/32") so for the same range, you would need about one-half the number of collets.  The down side of the ER style is that they are significantly slower to load and unload compared to the hand-wheel or lever and draw tube operated collets.  And as they are short and are tightened with a hex nut on their fronts, they don't have quite the angular stability or repeatability of the draw tube operated types, which are pulled from a fixed point a significant distance away.  The first comment also applies to most 5C collet chucks.  You have to stop the spindle and pick up a wrench.  Of course, the same statement also applies to a 3-jaw.

One other point - you shouldn't have to hammer on a 3MT or 4MT collet to release it.  You loosen the drawbar handwheel about two turns and whap it with the palm of your left hand.

So the best choice, if you don't want to spend the money to buy all of the choices, depends upon what you really need to do with the machine.

Robert D.


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## itsme_Bernie (Feb 25, 2014)

Hey Omni

First off, 5C is amazing if you can make it work.  I do almost everything in 5C collets if I can.  Eventually, you would be able to acquire every imaginable accessory or chuck or WHATEVER you want in a 5C mount.  SO versatile.   A set of 5C collets can pretty pricey, although there are Asian versions that people here have been pretty happy with. I believe I remember RayC is one of them, you could ask him his source. You might also get lucky picking up bits and pieces of sets for less $$.

The question is, can you "upgrade" the spindle.  Will it fit in the same bearing race?  I don't know for sure.  I bet it will, since it would be more money to make two totally separate headstocks at the same time.  Take some measurements of the outside of the spindle as close to the bearing as you can and i will measure mine.  I am just not familiar enough with your machine to know if it is the same size spindle all the way down.  Sourcing a 5C spindle may not be cheap.  If find one, and it is a clean swap, I'd say go for it!!

ER40 with a collet chuck would be a close second option, if not even better for you, due to the ease of application to your machine.  Just a screw the chuck on and you're done.  The collets are not as much as 5C.  The capacity is not as much either, but this may not affect you.   Many people like a collet chuck anyway.  Great range of capacity for each collet, and nice, even grip.  ER is a great option.

Bernie


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## stevecmo (Feb 25, 2014)

"  I realize this limits me to short pieces...."

What makes you say that about the ER-40 collets?  Actually the opposite is true.  If you use an ER collet chuck in lieu of a draw tube, you can pass long stock thru the spindle.

As you say, making the ER chuck not too difficult.  Even I was able to do it.  :happyhappy:




You do have to have the gears to do metric threads if you are going to use a purchased ER nut.  Otherwise you'll have to make the nut as well which gets a little tricky but can be done.

Hope this helps.

Steve


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## jneidig (Feb 25, 2014)

I had an ER 40 on my 11" SB that I recently got rid of, the chuck had an MT2 taper and I used a drawbar though the spindle to retain it. Overall I liked it a lot with one exception.... the lack of a though hole.


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## itsme_Bernie (Feb 25, 2014)

My Cousin swears by his collet chuck from this company.  The website might not be totally updated, so call about your ER40 / 1-7/8-8 spindle.  


http://www.bealltool.com/products/turning/colletchuck.php


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## wa5cab (Feb 26, 2014)

Steve,

I think that he wrote it because many commercially available ER collet chucks are on a solid arbor, typically a 3MT.  I realize that they don't have to be but most are.

Also, all draw tubes are, by definition, hollow, and work pieces with a diameter up to just less than their ID can be passed through.  You must have meant draw bar.

Robert D.



stevecmo said:


> "  I realize this limits me to short pieces...."
> 
> What makes you say that about the ER-40 collets?  Actually the opposite is true.  If you use an ER collet chuck in lieu of a draw tube, you can pass long stock thru the spindle.
> 
> Steve


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## LJP (Feb 26, 2014)

I have a Jacobs Spindle Nose Collet Chuck, it takes rubberflex collets. A full set spans 1/16" to 1 3/8" and everything in between. There is no drawbar, so you get the full use of your spindle bore. Mine is a plain back and I mounted it on a standard chuck backplate. I have had excellent results with it, and have heard the same from others. The only problem is they are not made anymore. I bought mine on Ebay with a full set of collets for $300. I have since bought the version that uses a chuck key to tighten it. It uses the same collets. I paid $189 for that. I think these were both exceptional deals, but I did buy everything on Ebay within the last 6 months, just be patient.


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## omni_dilletante (Feb 26, 2014)

This looks awesome.  

It appears that I need the 91-F1 mount for my lathe.  

I see quite a few L00 mount on ebay.  Looking at the cross section drawings it appears that the mount and the collet taper are all one piece which would make it very difficult to change the mount.  Am I reading this correctly?

Thanks, this is great.




LJP said:


> I have a Jacobs Spindle Nose Collet Chuck, it takes rubberflex collets. A full set spans 1/16" to 1 3/8" and everything in between. There is no drawbar, so you get the full use of your spindle bore. Mine is a plain back and I mounted it on a standard chuck backplate. I have had excellent results with it, and have heard the same from others. The only problem is they are not made anymore. I bought mine on Ebay with a full set of collets for $300. I have since bought the version that uses a chuck key to tighten it. It uses the same collets. I paid $189 for that. I think these were both exceptional deals, but I did buy everything on Ebay within the last 6 months, just be patient.
> 
> View attachment 71073
> View attachment 71072


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## LJP (Feb 26, 2014)

Omni, I have the manual for the chuck in PDF form. I tried to post it but it did not work for some reason. The manual shows a 91-F1 flange mount so they are available. Or, you could take the route I did and find a plain back to mount to a chuck backplate. You are correct that the L00 mount is all one piece. I will PM you the manual, let me know that you got it.
Larry

- - - Updated - - -

Omni, still can't seem to send it. Send me a PM with your email address.


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## LJP (Feb 26, 2014)

Omni, this is a Jacobs 96-F1, it uses the same collets, but tightens with a chuck key like any other Jacobs chuck. This is the one I haveounted on an indexer. There is one on Ebay right now for $229 with a plain back that you could make work. You will need to buy collets seperately. 



- - - Updated - - -

Jacobs Collet Chuck

This is the thread I posted about how I mounted it on my 13"SB


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## omni_dilletante (Feb 26, 2014)

Your chuck looks great.

What material did you use?  

I was wondering if I needed to consider hardening the taper, or just make sure I leave enough material to smooth it out a few times as needed.

I was ready to take this on when I realized the ER40 Nut has 1.5mm threads.  Then I priced the metric transposing gear set for my lathe.  Now I need to give that some more thought....




stevecmo said:


> "  I realize this limits me to short pieces...."
> 
> What makes you say that about the ER-40 collets?  Actually the opposite is true.  If you use an ER collet chuck in lieu of a draw tube, you can pass long stock thru the spindle.
> 
> ...


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