# Britain said it was taking steps to return to the traditional system of imperial weights and measures



## WobblyHand (Sep 18, 2021)

Minister David Frost announced this on Thursday.  

Honestly, once the pain of conversion was done, why would one want to revert?  Having grown up with Imperial, I find the system awkward at best.  I use imperial more or less since I'm in an imperial world.  Metric makes more sense and seems to be less error prone.  

Converting measurement systems back and forth at countrywide level _has to be disruptive_.  Going back to imperial will probably make Britain even less competitive world wide.

What do you folks think of this?


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## Jake P (Sep 18, 2021)

I for one wish that we (U.S.) had gone metric back when it was discussed when I was way younger!


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## rwm (Sep 18, 2021)

Boris Johnson’s plan to revive imperial measurements | The Week UK
					

The return of pounds and ounces is part of a ‘nostalgia war’, says historian Mary Beard



					www.theweek.co.uk
				




I think this is probably a FU to the EU? I agree, I would stick with metric after it was implemented.
Robert


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## Larry$ (Sep 18, 2021)

A really stupid idea. I wish the US had converted back in the 70's when it was considered. 

I switch back & forth but use metric when designing from scratch. Only a politician!


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## WobblyHand (Sep 18, 2021)

Jake P said:


> I for one wish that we (U.S.) had gone metric back when it was discussed when I was way younger!


Agreed.


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## benmychree (Sep 18, 2021)

I like Imperial just fine!


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## aliva (Sep 18, 2021)

Canada went metric in 1970 I grew up in the imperial world and still find it difficult to convert from metric to imperial. My generation got caught in the transition. I still convert kilos to pounds and liters to gallons. Metric is a much better system, my kids grew up with metric so imperial is foreign to them. I do all my work in imperial as I can understand it. When Canada changed, the government said it would  be necessary in order to trade with Europe. Not sure if it actually helped or not.
I still can't wrap my head around acers vs hectares. I think Britain is making a mistake in going to imperial. But look at their monetary system, I can't figure that one out, between pound, pence ( not Mike), tuppence shilling and quid. I've watched many British television shows and they seem to measure distance in miles and speed in MPH but volume in liters. So I I think they use the metric system only when they feel like it.


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## pdentrem (Sep 18, 2021)

In 1977 when Canada switched I was already indoctrinated to the Imperial system, while my younger brother had no clue what Imperial was! The rest of the world in metric why waste the time and money switching back! Seems like a political ploy to curry some votes from the geriatric generation, which I am sort of but being more realistically minded.
Pierre


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## RandyWilson (Sep 18, 2021)

I grew up with imperial, obviously, but spent most of my life working with metric cars and equipment.  The trick is you don't convert. You learn to think in either system.

Now if only the UK would give another F-U to the US, scrap the UNF/UNC pitches, and go back to a true and elegant thread form. Whitworth. I have my wrenches still.


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## benmychree (Sep 18, 2021)

RandyWilson said:


> I grew up with imperial, obviously, but spent most of my life working with metric cars and equipment.  The trick is you don't convert. You learn to think in either system.
> 
> Now if only the UK would give another F-U to the US, scrap the UNF/UNC pitches, and go back to a true and elegant thread form. Whitworth. I have my wrenches still.


Elegant in theory, perhaps not so much in practice. Cutting threads by single point cutting in the lathe, one ends up with a 55 deg. included angle with truncated crest and root, not the radius of the theoretical Whitworth thread,  I have cut several over the years and have the pitch/form gage and the "fishtail" gage, seldom used, the reside in my Gerstner box, and I have a few tool bits ground for them. The 60 deg. included angle of Imperial and metric threads is much more sensible when it comes to generating the angle by geometric means.


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## matthewsx (Sep 18, 2021)




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## mattthemuppet2 (Sep 18, 2021)

I think they should ditch the decimal system too, shillings, soverigns and tuppeny bits! My favourite British unit quirk is weight - when I was growing up there I would always give my weight in stones and pounds. So 8 stone 5 pounds = 117lb. One stone is 14lb and there are 16oz to a pound! It's a great exercise in mental arithmatic going from stone to kilos 

I wonder who the nationalist/ "we wish it was the 1950s again" crowd will complain about now that they can't blame Brussels for everything?


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## WobblyHand (Sep 18, 2021)

Ready to go back to before the steam engine?  I mean, how far back do they want to go?


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## mattthemuppet2 (Sep 18, 2021)

I think to when everything was awesome, everyone knew their place and all was right with the world. When that was obviously depends on who you are


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## savarin (Sep 18, 2021)

Brexit was a dumb idea but this one is even dumber, but then again when you look around the world at all the so called "leaders" in all the so called first world countries it seem stupidity is the major requirement for the position.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 18, 2021)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> I think they should ditch the decimal system too, shillings, soverigns and tuppeny bits! My favourite British unit quirk is weight - when I was growing up there I would always give my weight in stones and pounds. So 8 stone 5 pounds = 117lb. One stone is 14lb and there are 16oz to a pound! It's a great exercise in mental arithmatic going from stone to kilos
> 
> I wonder who the nationalist/ "we wish it was the 1950s again" crowd will complain about now that they can't blame Brussels for everything?


The ones wishing for the 1950's again more than likely never experienced them.  Living in Britain in the years after WWII wasn't all that much fun, according to my wife.  Food was still hard to come by with many resorting to small gardens to put food on the table.  My father-in-law raised rabbits for protein for the table.  Wages weren't that great and many lived in subsidized housing, sometimes several families.  Coal was a main source of heat and air pollution resulted.


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## pdentrem (Sep 18, 2021)

GF’s daughter says that Boris is trying to distract people from the fact there is an active food shortage in the UK at the moment.


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## Winegrower (Sep 18, 2021)

I doubt this re-conversion will ever happen.


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## WobblyHand (Sep 18, 2021)

Winegrower said:


> I doubt this re-conversion will ever happen.


Who knows.  The conventional wisdom was Brexit wouldn't ever happen.  The conventional wisdom was wrong.

Seems like a lot of pain for practically no gain.  They did the hard part of conversion, which the US was unable (and unwilling) to do.  Why go back?  Seems to be a play for nationalist pride, rather than practicality.


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## ddillman (Sep 18, 2021)

Changing back would be dumb.  But I like the imperial system


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## WobblyHand (Sep 18, 2021)

ddillman said:


> But I like the imperial system


Why do you like the imperial system?  Is it just because it is familiar, or something else?


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## rwm (Sep 18, 2021)

What would you say if the US were entirely metric... and then I told you that you had to buy all new Imperial fasteners and wrenches! You tool-aholics out there do not need to weigh in.
Robert


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## WobblyHand (Sep 18, 2021)

rwm said:


> What would you say if the US were entirely metric... and then I told you that you had to buy all new Imperial fasteners and wrenches! You tool-aholics out there do not need to weigh in.
> Robert


It would be pretty awful, expensive too. 

Of course, here, in the US, we had to buy metric stuff if we wanted to work on our cars or motorcycles.  Worldwide manufacturing uses almost exclusively metric.


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## ddillman (Sep 18, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> Why do you like the imperial system? Is it just because it is familiar, or something else?


It is familiar to me


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## jwmay (Sep 18, 2021)

I just want to be consistent. If you specify metric fasteners, draw it with metric dimensions, and vice versa. But at my job they draw Imperial and specify metric fasteners. I don't care much for that. 
I don't have an opinion on what the UK government does. I have trouble enough dodging politics locally. Hostile work environment took on a whole new meaning in 2020. Lol


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## mattthemuppet2 (Sep 19, 2021)

RJSakowski said:


> The ones wishing for the 1950's again more than likely never experienced them.  Living in Britain in the years after WWII wasn't all that much fun, according to my wife.  Food was still hard to come by with many resorting to small gardens to put food on the table.  My father-in-law raised rabbits for protein for the table.  Wages weren't that great and many lived in subsidized housing, sometimes several families.  Coal was a main source of heat and air pollution resulted.



yes, but it doesn't stop people from thinking those were the golden years, before all this sexual revolution, women's rights and immigration stuff. Funnily enough I lived in NZ for a couple of years, which is a top destination for the "wish it were the 1950s" peeps, and although it was beautiful the houses were drafty, heating was by coal (or not at all) and air pollution was terrible in winter. Sounds kinda like what you're describing


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## higgite (Sep 19, 2021)

Ah, the perennial Imperial vs metric thread. (pun intended) The same stale arguments from both sides of the aisle that are going to change no one’s mind. But it does pass the time, which I think should be converted to the metric system for those who have trouble dividing and multiplying by 366, 365, 52, 12, 28, 29, 30, 31, 4, 7, 24 and 60.

But, I love Imperial measurements. I just wish my car’s speedometer scale was marked in furlongs per fortnight.

Tom


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## matthewsx (Sep 19, 2021)

My old British car's speedometer was marked in furlongs per fortnight 

John


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## MikeInOr (Sep 19, 2021)

I can't fathom how I would be able to get anything done if a piece of plywood wasn't 4' x 8'?  Metric plywood thicknesses aready drive me crazy!  How tall are ceilings in Europe and Canada?  What is the size of a piece of sheet rock over there?

I was taught the Metric system in school in the 70's.  Yes I wish we would have just done it and gotten it over with!


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## stupoty (Sep 19, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> View attachment 378921



Except that a UK pint is quite a bit bigger than a yanky pint  them carpetbaggers getting ur booze too !

4 fluid oz drunker per go !  



Just don't mention the price plz , thanks


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## Karl_T (Sep 19, 2021)

The worst is when they mix them. I am on my second john deere tractor with both metric and imperial fasteners. Drives you nucking futs picking out wrenches to take it apart.  THEN you try to put a 6mm bolt in a 1/4" theaded spot, or a 3/8 bolt in a 10 mm thread, ya da ya da.


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## savarin (Sep 19, 2021)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> yes, but it doesn't stop people from thinking those were the golden years, before all this sexual revolution, women's rights and immigration stuff. Funnily enough I lived in NZ for a couple of years, which is a top destination for the "wish it were the 1950s" peeps, and although it was beautiful the houses were drafty, heating was by coal (or not at all) and air pollution was terrible in winter. Sounds kinda like what you're describing


Ah the 50's, short trousers in the middle of winter, fog so thick you couldnt see across the road and people dying  from respiratory problems, polio still running around, chicken pox parties so all the kids got it at the same time, dentistry with no anesthetic, TB still doing the rounds, roast beef or lamb on sunday, cold meat and mash on monday and if there was any left, there would be, mum made certain of that, the remains minced up with vegies and baked in pastry as a pie. thursday dinners I cant remember but fridays was fish and chips and saturdays was bacon egg and chips.
In the winter ice would freeze on the inside of the windows in the unheated bedrooms, the whole family sitting huddled round the single bar electric fire listening to the "wireless"
Ah the good old days.
There were some good things though, Doctors cost nothing and made home visits, bread and milk was delivered daily, the greengrocer delivered twice a week, the grocer delivered once a week.
sundays were good the shellfish man came round selling winkles, whelks and prawns and the muffin man with a tray of fresh baked crumpets balanced on his head ringing his hand bell.


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## projectnut (Sep 19, 2021)

Jake P said:


> I for one wish that we (U.S.) had gone metric back when it was discussed when I was way younger!


This discussion has been going on long before any of us were born.  It's been raging on for more than 100 years There was a thread on this subject on the Practical Machinist board a couple years ago.  Someone copied and pasted a newspaper article with the same emotions being expressed here.  At the end of the post they included the date the article was published.  It was 1917.


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## WobblyHand (Sep 19, 2021)

projectnut said:


> This discussion has been going on long before any of us were born.  It's been raging on for more than 100 years There was a thread on this subject on the Practical Machinist board a couple years ago.  Someone copied and pasted a newspaper article with the same emotions being expressed here.  At the end of the post they included the date the article was published.  It was 1917.


Not exactly.  The question is more, why go back?  Britain did go metric.  It's a fact.  It was a costly effort.  It took time to implement.  What purpose does it serve to revert?

I have no dog in the show.  Have relatively complete set of tools for both.  Use both systems as appropriate.


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## pdentrem (Sep 19, 2021)

GM made their decision when they made the Citation. It was their first metric car. I have complete sets of tools in both systems since then. 
Pierre


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## projectnut (Sep 19, 2021)

pdentrem said:


> GM made their decision when they made the Citation. It was their first metric car. I have complete sets of tools in both systems since then.
> Pierre


At that time maybe the Citation was all metric, but other GM cars were a miserable combination of both metric and SAE.  I worked for a Cadillac/Oldsmobile sealer in those days.  Most of the body fasteners were metric while the frame, running gear, engines and transmissions were "mostly" SAE.  I say mostly because all the main castings had SAE fasteners, but some of the add on exterior parts like solenoids had metric fasteners.  As time went on more and more fasteners became metric.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 19, 2021)

jwmay said:


> I just want to be consistent. If you specify metric fasteners, draw it with metric dimensions, and vice versa. But at my job they draw Imperial and specify metric fasteners. I don't care much for that.
> I don't have an opinion on what the UK government does. I have trouble enough dodging politics locally. Hostile work environment took on a whole new meaning in 2020. Lol


Designing in metric or Imperial had an impact when work was laid out with  a rule and scribe.  Having dimensions given in nice round numbers  in metric and then having to lay out the work with your inch rule would ruin anyone's workday.

It is less so in today's modern world with CNC machining,  My CNC could care less if it's metric or Imperial.  The DRO's on my mill/drill and lathe will easly change from Imperial to metric at the push of a button.  The last thirteen years, I worked in companies associated with medical fields where dimensions are metric.  In one case, I had to make a component whose main feature was an 8 x 12 pattern of holes on exactly 9 mm centers.  I didn't have the CNC at the time and locating the holes in Imperial would have been tedious and prone to error so for drilling the holes, I simply switched to metric and set the subdatum on the first hole and drilled away at nice even 9 mm increments.

In another case, I had to design a part that had the same pattern but the part was dimensioned in Imperial for an outside vendor. The problem was how to dimension the part so that the approximate .354" conversion of 9 mm wouldn't cause a problem at the twelfth hole due to losing the .00033" on each hole location.  The problem was solved by using ordinate dimensioning for the hole pattern.

Perhaps the biggest issue is that our raw materials are dimensioned in Imperial and making metric parts can be difficult.  In one case, we made acrylic blocks which were used for attenuating x rays.  The dimensions were nice whole metric numbers.  One block in particular had a thickness of 20 mm.  We could buy 3/4" acrylic which has a thickness of 19.05 mm and could easily be machine to make a 5" x 5" block without facing or we could buy 7/8" sheet and face down to exactly 20 mm. We chose the former, labeling the 3/4" blocks as a nominal 20 mm.  Not a problem for a single block as the difference was well within the needed tolerance but if you were building a stack of blocks, that error would a stack up and the calibration of the x ray machine would be off.  Think about that the next time you get an x ray.

Going the other way, we had an operation in the UK and one of the products used 4" diameter acrylic.  The part had been designed prior to their conversion to metric and to specifically fit a particular x ray machine.    They finally used all their old stock and had to find a new source.  Unfortunately, all the acrylic was now metric so they would have to buy oversized stock and turn both the i.d and o.d  to Imperial dimensions.  They ended up having us machine the part and ship them to the UK.

Most plywood  now comes slightly less than the nominal Imperial sizes.  so 3/4" plywood is actually about 1/32" thinner.  For cabinet makers, this means any rabbeted joint would have a gap.  1/4" products re actually more like 6mm.  At least, the woodworking tooling industry has come around to offering undersized router bits.

What most people don't realize is switching from one system to the other is not simply a matter of relabeling  or providing slightly more or less product.  There are serious supply consequences to making system conversion.


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## pdentrem (Sep 19, 2021)

projectnut said:


> At that time maybe the Citation was all metric, but other GM cars were a miserable combination of both metric and SAE.  I worked for a Cadillac/Oldsmobile sealer in those days.  Most of the body fasteners were metric while the frame, running gear, engines and transmissions were "mostly" SAE.  I say mostly because all the main castings had SAE fasteners, but some of the add on exterior parts like solenoids had metric fasteners.  As time went on more and more fasteners became metric.


Yes it was a mishmash of systems across their products! In those days likely it was still an issue to source components from their suppliers in metric. It still forced me and the other guys to purchase the tools at our expense of course.


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## RJSakowski (Sep 19, 2021)

I design and work in Imperial.  For those dimensions which are metric by nature, I convert to Imperial.  I use Imperial fasteners simply because I can buy them in bulk at the local DYI  or hardware or farm supply store. Metric fasteners come in those little bins, wrapped in plastic, and usually at about four times the price.


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## tq60 (Sep 19, 2021)

Yup...

Working on a project the is using brake drum from fire engine as base, international brand, with a wheel hub as interface to the column.

It is a BBQ for back yard.

The hub has 2 rings of studs, wheel lugs at 0.885 ish (METRIC) and studs for the center floating axle 0.775 ( SAE).

At the distributor the metrics are 4 bucks each and sae 50 cents or so.


Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## matthewsx (Sep 19, 2021)

stupoty said:


> Except that a UK pint is quite a bit bigger than a yanky pint  them carpetbaggers getting ur booze too !
> 
> 4 fluid oz drunker per go !
> 
> ...



My dad's old local, I'm now a "mug club" member at their Capitola pub.



			https://englishalesbrewery.com/about-us
		


John


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## hermetic (Sep 19, 2021)

This is all a bit exagereated! what is actually happened is that the UK governmet has said that it will no longer be illegal (which it was and ppl were prosecuted) to use either imperial or metric weights and measures!


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## Bi11Hudson (Sep 19, 2021)

hermetic said:


> This is all a bit exagereated! what is actually happened is that the UK governmet has said that it will no longer be illegal (which it was and ppl were prosecuted) to use either imperial or metric weights and measures!


The way things are worded, it seems to me that the British want to "$h**" on the EU in retaliation for some slight. While I do agree to an extent, I am a US citizen so really don't have a "horse in that race". Having been a US citizen since before there was a united states, I really don't care to enter such a race. I'm not that geriatric, my ancestry goes back to 1*6*20, from England.

Whether to use Imperial or Metric is purely at a theoretical level. I am of the "geriatric generation" but use either one interchangably. More or less. . . If I am working on something from a metrified nation, such as a bicycle manufactured in China, I think in metric. If I am working on my hobby of archaic US made machinery, I think in Imperial. I have Imperial and Metric tooling. It is a PITA to switch back and forth, but I do it. I don't have any children to get confused. 

The bottom line, I see the British coming around to our(US) way of thinking. It doesn't happen very often, but does occasionally. Without delving into my personal politics, I am a little obstinate (bull headed) just for the sake of being so. One of my passtimes has for years been to "stir the $h!tcan" just to be stirring up animosity. I personally feel that we should have gone Metric back around 1820 when Tommy Jefferson was pushing for it. Then it would have been a non-issue. But it didn't happen then, and we are paying the price now. My position is to "make the best of it" and be prepared for whatever comes.

.


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## JimDawson (Sep 19, 2021)

I still do everything in cubits


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## rwm (Sep 19, 2021)

Next think you know they will be calling it Aluminium!
Robert


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## Aaron_W (Sep 19, 2021)

WobblyHand said:


> Not exactly.  The question is more, why go back?  Britain did go metric.  It's a fact.  It was a costly effort.  It took time to implement.  What purpose does it serve to revert?
> 
> I have no dog in the show.  Have relatively complete set of tools for both.  Use both systems as appropriate.



The UK is about as metric as the US. They still sell beer in pints and use highway signs with miles. They use metric where it made sense to make the conversion. Despite common knowledge the US is not the last hold out against the metric system.


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## savarin (Sep 20, 2021)

Infographic: Only Three Countries in the World (Officially) Still Use the Imperial System
					

This chart shows countries which still (officially) use the imperial system.




					www.statista.com


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## Aaron_W (Sep 20, 2021)

savarin said:


> Infographic: Only Three Countries in the World (Officially) Still Use the Imperial System
> 
> 
> This chart shows countries which still (officially) use the imperial system.
> ...



Which is false right at the beginning of their article where they say the UK is "stuck in the middle" still using pints and miles.

The US is officially metric, the older US customary system (not Imperial which has many different units) having been defined by metric units since 1893. The US requires metric labelling on food, and many industries are metric. I'd be curious how they determine that the UK is metric and the US not when they both use miles on the highway.


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## stupoty (Sep 21, 2021)

Don't forget the most insane thing ever thought of invented surely by a committee (or people who should be commit'ed),

Behold a Metric system of fasteners described in imperial units !!!!

BA fasteners !





__





						British Association screw threads - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Lo-Fi (Sep 21, 2021)

The reasons are political and have no place here. Suffice to say it's a circus move from a PM that doesn't know how to do anything else and we'd probably better leave it at that. 

The phrase "you can't reason somebody out of an opinion they didn't reason themselves into" applies to the conversation around _why._

As an amusing aside, this neatly sums up my thoughts and feelings on imperial measures:


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## Weldingrod1 (Sep 21, 2021)

Ugh. I really wish we (US) would finally retire inch stuff. The worst ones are equipment with both inch and metric fittings/bolts on it :-(
I'll take a large serving of decimal, please! With a side of "units that were designed -after- we knew about gravity"... pounds force, pounds mass, poundals, slugs, oh, my!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Lo-Fi (Sep 21, 2021)

The single thing imperial measures have going for them in my humble opinion is that the physical size of an inch lends itself well to being easily visualised. Fractional divisions and stupid, arbitrary bases can do one, frankly.  Nobody machines stuff in 128ths, do they? No. Because it would be _insanely_ stupid. Half? Quarter? Fine. 13/64? Are you jeffing well serious?!?

The same people who claim the old measurements are "better" are the same people who used to tell me I needed to know long division "because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket". Hold my chuffing beer....


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## higgite (Sep 21, 2021)

Lo-Fi said:


> Nobody machines stuff in 128ths, do they? No. Because it would be _insanely_ stupid. Half? Quarter? Fine. 13/64? Are you jeffing well serious?!?


I wholeheartedly agree. That's why I machine and measure cuts to thousandths, not fractions, of an inch.  

Tom


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## WobblyHand (Sep 21, 2021)

Lo-Fi said:


> The reasons are political and have no place here. Suffice to say it's a circus move from a PM that doesn't know how to do anything else and we'd probably better leave it at that.


Sad but true.  

As the OP, I think reversion is absurd, considering that conversion had taken place.  The economic impact will be large, for little, if no return.

Think this thread has run its course.  I don't want this to get political.  Thanks for everyone's thoughts.


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## rwm (Sep 21, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> Which is false right at the beginning of their article where they say the UK is "stuck in the middle" still using pints and miles.
> 
> The US is officially metric, the older US customary system (not Imperial which has many different units) having been defined by metric units since 1893. The US requires metric labelling on food, and many industries are metric. I'd be curious how they determine that the UK is metric and the US not when they both use miles on the highway.


And only one of those countries has a Super Bowl win. That says something for the Imperial system.




Robert


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## RJSakowski (Sep 21, 2021)

rwm said:


> And only one of those countries has a Super Bowl win. That says something for the Imperial system.
> 
> View attachment 379191
> 
> ...


Not to mention winners of the World Series


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## RJSakowski (Sep 21, 2021)

I always get a chuckle out of news reporters when they try to include both metric and Imperial units.  For example they will say 70 ft. (21.336 m).  To me, 70 ft. means greater than 65 ft and less than 75 ft.  Carrying out a conversion to fiver places is absurd.


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## Mini Cooper S (Sep 21, 2021)

At my age, I don't care if they put my ashes in a quart container or a or a liter container.


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## stupoty (Sep 21, 2021)

I have a set of lenses for a view camera , 
one  90mm 
one 203mm
one 5 1/4 inch

not confusing at all


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## Bi11Hudson (Sep 21, 2021)

Lo-Fi said:


> The single thing imperial measures have going for them in my humble opinion is that the physical size of an inch lends itself well to being easily visualised. Fractional divisions and stupid, arbitrary bases can do one, frankly.  Nobody machines stuff in 128ths, do they? No. Because it would be _insanely_ stupid. Half? Quarter? Fine. 13/64? Are you jeffing well serious?!?
> 
> The same people who claim the old measurements are "better" are the same people who used to tell me I needed to know long division "because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket". Hold my chuffing beer....





RJSakowski said:


> I always get a chuckle out of news reporters when they try to include both metric and Imperial units.  For example they will say 70 ft. (21.336 m).  To me, 70 ft. means greater than 65 ft and less than 75 ft.  Carrying out a conversion to five places is absurd.


Five snorts is a quirt. Seven quirts is a fritz. And on and on. Any measure is relative to what is being done. I was reading a book on Railway Locomotives published 1911. Which indicates the information is from 1910 or earlier. In a section about machining replacement parts, a unit of measure of 1/64th was common. That the 1/64 was "scant" or "full" implies 1/128. That's actually pretty close to 2 tenths of a millimeter.

Today we think in thousandths, why not in tenths of a millimeter. Or we think in tenths of a millimeter. . . The question goes on and probably will for generations into the future. A grain of sand from Florida is considerably different than one from Tahiti, which is different than. . .

Precision math (actually arithmetic) has its' place. If I were building a rocket ship to go to the moon, I might want calculations to five decimal places. But for my home tinkering, two places full or scant is close enough.

Mathematics comes into play when one studies algebra (and trig, on my own) and better. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division don't reach that high. And "long division" is something we all do on a regular basis. In the time it takes to reach for a calculator, we have already determined that 1/16 inch equals 0.0625 inch. 1/256 takes a little longer, but why bother with a calculator. A pencil and paper is already handy if needed. And in reality, making a bolt from hex stock deserves a sketch anyway.

I didn't go to high school, barely finished grammar school. But I much prefer long hand pencil and paper for no other reason than batteries don't last forever. And usually die when most needed. I do have a (several) calculaters. To figure the secant of 24.5 degrees does take a bit of calculation. But to bisect that angle, the result is 12.25 degrees. That is basic arithmetic.

End of rant

.


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## Aaron_W (Sep 21, 2021)

stupoty said:


> I have a set of lenses for a view camera ,
> one  90mm
> one 203mm
> one 5 1/4 inch
> ...



Don't forget that standard 1/4"-20 screw for tripod mounting your "35mm" camera (film what's that?   ) .


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## B2 (Sep 21, 2021)

Bi11Hudson said:


> Five snorts is a quirt. Seven quirts is a fritz. And on and on. Any measure is relative to what is being done. I was reading a book on Railway Locomotives published 1911. Which indicates the information is from 1910 or earlier. In a section about machining replacement parts, a unit of measure of 1/64th was common. That the 1/64 was "scant" or "full" implies 1/128. That's actually pretty close to 2 tenths of a millimeter.
> 
> Today we think in thousandths, why not in tenths of a millimeter. Or we think in tenths of a millimeter. . . The question goes on and probably will for generations into the future. A grain of sand from Florida is considerably different than one from Tahiti, which is different than. . .
> 
> ...


Google says the distance to the moon is:  238,900 mi, or 391,388 kilometers at the moment.  6 digits.... Lets see, if I understand 5 decimal places will get me to within ~10 miles of where I may need to be or is it even farther off. .... so get out the moon buggy.  However, where in this conversation are the error bars?   In this case 10 miles or so is good enough!?   Yes, the proper way to do the conversion is to keep only as many decimal places as the original number....  1.0 inches = 2.5cm,   1.00 inches is 2.54cm etc.   Error bars are needed to know exactly what is meant.  On the other hand if my mill has 0.007" of backlash why do I need to spec. a circular part to better than 0.001" .  Certainly do not need to spec it at 0.0010.   On the other hand, if I get a better mill..... some day....

Grain of sand.  To day I finally figured out what sand was used in the mortar of my 90 year old house.  I have been trying to match the color for years.....  Having a hell of a time trying to match it without the original sand.....    Monterey Beach Sand.   It has a nice mixture of brown, clear ,, etc. grains.  It is not white or grey or black like some others.    The Monterey Bay Sand Company that may have mined it had to recently quit due to some complaints about erosion etc.  So yes, sands are different.


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## savarin (Sep 21, 2021)

When grinding my mirrors I work in fractions of a wavelength of light.


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## higgite (Sep 22, 2021)

Speaking of useless metrics to the average hobby machinist.... millibars. I fail to see the purpose of the local TV weatherman informing me of the millibars of pressure in the eye of an incoming  Cat 4 hurricane. I have been blown around by strong winds before, but I’ve never been hit by a millibar. I did hit a few minibars back in my travellling days, but that's a whole nuther system of measurement.

Tom


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## skyline1 (Sep 22, 2021)

This is just another bit of the typically British political rubbish we are famous for, mainly designed to frustrate and confuse the EU. (like they are not confused enough already)

In reality we have been using both systems in parallel since metrication first happened. even though it was technically illegal.

The only difference this will make is is that supermarkets will now be able to sell packets marked " contents 1LB (454 Grams)" instead of "contents 454 Grams (1LB)".

In engineering terms it will make little difference as we are doing these conversions already and and have been for decades either explicitly or mentally.

For example if my metric micrometer says my part is 0.1mm oversize then I know how much too big it is even if in my head I'm thinking about 4 'thou. as that is something I can visualize. In my case it's also about 2 hairs or 1/5 of a thumbnail. The actual units don't matter as much as the relative size

We tend to mentally convert to our preferred system of units instinctively often without knowing it.

Best Regards Mark


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## rwm (Sep 22, 2021)

Tell that to the Mars Climate Orbiter team!









						Mars Probe Lost Due to Simple Math Error
					

NASA lost its $125-million Mars Climate Orbiter because spacecraft engineers failed to convert from English to metric measurements when exchanging vital data before the craft was launched, space agency officials said Thursday.




					www.latimes.com
				




Robert


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## Larry$ (Sep 22, 2021)

RJSakowski said:


> Metric fasteners come in those little bins, wrapped in plastic, and usually at about four times the price.


I do mostly repair work and got tired of needing to get expensive metric fasteners. I now have sets from McMaster-Carr. If I only use 1/10th of them it is cheaper than the local outlets and saves me trips. It also allows me to design & work in metric for my own projects. Over time I've torn apart metric stuff and always saved the fasteners, now stored in plastic, labeled jars.


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## higgite (Sep 22, 2021)

rwm said:


> Tell that to the Mars Climate Orbiter team!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s not a problem with the system of measurement. That’s a problem with incompetent/careless engineers at JPL.

Tom


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## RJSakowski (Sep 22, 2021)

Larry$ said:


> I do mostly repair work and got tired of needing to get expensive metric fasteners. I now have sets from McMaster-Carr. If I only use 1/10th of them it is cheaper than the local outlets and saves me trips. It also allows me to design & work in metric for my own projects. Over time I've torn apart metric stuff and always saved the fasteners, now stored in plastic, labeled jars.


Unfortunately, I don't have enough call for metric fasteners to justify purchasing in bulk.  I also save all fasteners, both metric and SAE from old machinery and equipment and I have a small stash.  Most recently, I scrapped out about 6 tons of iron and pulled all the fasteners out.  The cost of each fastener doesn't justify the effort  by itself but when you factor in the 50 mile round trip and the 2 hours spent to get the fastener you need to finish a project, it makes sense.


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