# Restoration of my Schaublin SV52 toolroom milling machine



## jshaugjord

Hi all,
greetings to my "classmates" from the Georgia scraping class and our mentor R.King.

I have been trying to hone my scraping skills, as best I have had the time to (my friends camelback.. happens to be just the thing we practised, ie. one surface flat and to 40 ppi). I learned a lot in Georgia, something I would never have done without Richards teaching. I hope I will do him right with my efforts on my projects.. Another side of the class experience was that I had a he.. of a good time! Better vacation I could not have had.
One major project I have aquired is a Schaublin SV52 mill, details found at http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublinmiller/page5.html (thanks to my friend Ola, who convinced me that I just had to have this mill, as can be seen by his grinning face after I had been talking with the salesguy at the local Danish machine dealer..)
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 54691


I did try the machine somewhat before committing, but as Ola proclaimed "it cannot be much used as there is hardly no paint chipped off.." hmm..the machine is a good 50 years old..
View attachment 54692

	

		
			
		

		
	
pic of the mill in my garage, having been delivered by the typical Danish freight company driver working in slippers, truck with summer tires (down to my place went well, but in Oslo in the hillside in wintery conditions to where he went..?)
Well, to put it short, I have found both wear and breakage (as would be expected).
Listing as goes:
- The casting holding the brass nut for the in/out table feed was almost broken off, and parted entirely when I put it to the test. One part is still stuck to the underside of the bigger part that onto which the table rests/slides. I have not yet been able to solve the puzzle of how to get apart, but I hope I am in for a "AHA!" experience. Anyway, the 2 cast iron parts are candidates for either brazing or welding together.. We'll see. That is a fix that may be held off until later. Update! I am told it is also possible to "nest the parts together" using Metalock. Ie. no heating, welding or traditional stuff.. sounds too good to be true.. will investigate further as there is a local Metalock company in my city.
- a couple of broken nuts/screw remaindings in holes etc. Not the biggest problems
- Some more or less rusty parts. Also not much concern
- a lot of grime and dirt, as well as a good portion of greas/oil/swarf mixture.. again, no problem, just work..
- Then onto the topic that is more interesting, namely how much work is needed to restore it to its' former accuracy..
The old lady is Swiss, and on the heavy side at 1200Kg (2600lbs), so she's hard to wrestle around. I have plans to get her on her back having undressed her down to the bare neccessities.. that is, scraping the column ways etc. She may have a coat of fresh paint, but I am no artist, so if it can be avoided..
The table sideways measurements shows about +/-5/100 (2/1000") deviation from center. To my knowledge, the table itself is bowed, and "hangs" down on each side by this amount. This is confirmed by setting a level on the table which proves it is high in the middle. Pic show one of the table flatness tests (I did front, middle and back as well as crosswise all corners, all the same results). Right, Richard?
View attachment 54693

The underside of table, ie. table ways, are pretty flat, though the scrapemarks are almost gone. I also measured the box ways after I had removed the table, leaving the knee ways exposed. In/out travel seems OK, ie. almost no difference. The horisontal ways seems to have seen less wear, and these seem flat and parallel. The main errors are in the vertical box ways. The knee slopes towards the left and out. Going down there is about 20/100 mm (8/1000") movement to the left from top to bottom (45 cm) and about 25/100 mm (10/1000") out.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 54697

The column has box ways, with the gib on the right (inside) of the left way as seen from the front. With this gib drawn in tight, there is still room for a 10/1000" feeler gage on the opposite side of the left way (same ways as the gib). This is probably because the left side of the righthand way also bears, so no matter if the gib is tight, there is still play. The top side of both keep-plates behind the ways also have play, indicating signs of wear of the mating members here, ie. the back of the ways? 
The left side box way is higher than the right side, so it won't "sit" directly on the granite table. Therefore it seems easier for me to scrape the horisontal box ways while the knee is fixed to the column.
View attachment 54698

Is this OK practise? Out of lazyness, since the knee is already sitting there, I thought maybe I could scrape the horisontal ways first. OK? I guess this would void the term "building the house from the foundation and up"?  Ie. normally you start at the bottom and work up: First remove the knee and scrape the column, then the mating member, then mount back the knee.
Also, from your experience, which of the box way surfaces are clearance, if any? Left vertical way bears both sides, but is the right way meant to have clearance on one side?
Many questions, and I know you're progressed to another scraping class, but I thought you might like to hear from me... Kind rgds, Jan Sverre


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## Gearco

Jan, I'm sure it looks daunting and you'll want to get down to the critical work as soon as possible but here are a couple of suggestions:  1. Take lots of pictures of the assembled machine-it will help you remember where little things go. 2. Using a shop vac, kerosine or mineral spirits and different kinds of wire brushes (brass is good) and scotchbrite pads, clean as much of the metal shavings off the machine as possible. The shavings will be everywhere and since they are anchored by dried grease and oil they are difficult to remove. 3. Then make an assessment of how deeply you want to go into the machine.  good luck


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## stevecmo

Well, I'd just like to commend you for taking the time, not to mention the expense, to attend one of Rich's scraping classes in the US.  I'm in awe!.  I can only imagine what an adventure that must have been for you.  

That looks like it will be a very nice mill once you thrust your newly acquired knowledge on it.  Best of luck and please keep us up to date with lots of pics.


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## jshaugjord

Gearco said:


> Jan, I'm sure it looks daunting and you'll want to get down to the critical work as soon as possible but here are a couple of suggestions: 1. Take lots of pictures of the assembled machine-it will help you remember where little things go. 2. Using a shop vac, kerosine or mineral spirits and different kinds of wire brushes (brass is good) and scotchbrite pads, clean as much of the metal shavings off the machine as possible. The shavings will be everywhere and since they are anchored by dried grease and oil they are difficult to remove. 3. Then make an assessment of how deeply you want to go into the machine. good luck



Hi again Jim,

Yes, I know I have a load of work ahead, but that’s OK. Have taken a lot of pictures and some videos. I agree that this is important as the restoration process will take time, and even those obvious things you thought were easy tasks, not easy to forget, seems to proove a challenge when assembly comes around some months later. Since the pic of the knee with cover and a lot of swarf/oil mixture was taken, it is since been cleaned partially, and I am about to start using brushes and kerosene as you mention. I am not sure if I really have to remove the round column that holds the head (allowing movement in both planes, ie. universal), before I tip the beast onto the back to scrape the column ways. I kinda want Richards opinion also as the ways need to be square to this column, hmm…
Next is to pull the knee and start scraping.. (I am in process of tooling up a bit for this, bigger surface plate (1200x800mm, class 00 (4mikro) etc.) Anyway, I’m booked (or may I say hooked?) for the next days with total refurb of our bedroom, so the mill will have to wait a little..

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## jshaugjord

stevecmo said:


> Well, I'd just like to commend you for taking the time, not to mention the expense, to attend one of Rich's scraping classes in the US.  I'm in awe!.  I can only imagine what an adventure that must have been for you.
> 
> That looks like it will be a very nice mill once you thrust your newly acquired knowledge on it.  Best of luck and please keep us up to date with lots of pics.



Hi Steve, very nice to hear from you guys. Thanks for the comments. Yes, it was an adventure, but I was overdue on some quality time like this. Wouldn't have done this however if I wasn't able to combine this with my work schedule. I enjoyed every minute the stay, and would love to do the same again. Sure, will keep you updated. Kind rgds Jan


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## Richard King

Jan,  I  Have been busy teaching another class and to tired to comment.  I't sounds like the dealer took advantage of you.    You will find some machinery dealers are not honest.  Many say they are as honest as a used car salesman.   But at least most buyers take the car for a test drive.  It sounds like you never saw the machine or test drove it before buying it  It's a good lesson for everyone buying a machine.  I recommend if you can't fly or drive to go test the machine call and hire a local machinery rebuilder to go examine it and pay him to give you his honest opinion of the condition of the machine.  One of the readers from Missouri bought a Bridgeport from a dealer and it was 3 machines made into one and it had paper shims under the gibs.  He has a mess now.  He and you would have been money ahead to have paid an expert to examine the machine before you paid out hard earned money for junk.  If the dealer told you the machine was a "Project machine"  then you can pay less, but if he sold you as a machine "in running condition"  He is a crook.  This is why the  honest Machine Tool Dealers give you a 30 day money back guarantee.  I can't say it enough that if you can go test the machine do it.  Or hire someone to test  it for you.

Jan I hope you have a copy of "Machine Tool Reconditioning"  as Chapter 27 was written by Kearney Trecker and Cincinnati new machine builders on how to build or rebuild a horizontal mill.  Look at pictures 27.7 and 27.8 as it shows you how to test the spindle to the column.  I also do a slightly different method as I attach a ground test bar to the top of the spindle spindle and spin the test bar so it is parallel to the spindle bearings.  I will scan a rough drawing later and add it to this post. The rule you have to follow here is the horizontal spindle is fixed and not adjustable and you have to test and scrape everything to it.  Unlike a Vertical Mill like a Bridgeport or Jim's machine, the spindle is attached to a removable headstock and it can be adjusted or scraped to be aligned to the top of the table.   After you scrape column parallel to the spindle then you scrape the knee, saddle and table on both types of vertical and horizontal machines.    You have to assume that 99% of all machines were built accurately from the factory, so it isn't the same as they had to do when building the machine new.   
I have to go, but will write more later.   Rich    PS>  Many parts of the Connelley book is a waste of time or I do not agree with the techniques, but it is a good text book for you to follow.


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## jshaugjord

Richard King said:


> Jan,  I  Have been busy teaching another class and to tired to comment.  I't sounds like the dealer took advantage of you.    You will find some machinery dealers are not honest.  Many say they are as honest as a used car salesman.   But at least most buyers take the car for a test drive.  It sounds like you never saw the machine or test drove it before buying it  It's a good lesson for everyone buying a machine.  I recommend if you can't fly or drive to go test the machine call and hire a local machinery rebuilder to go examine it and pay him to give you his honest opinion of the condition of the machine.  One of the readers from Missouri bought a Bridgeport from a dealer and it was 3 machines made into one and it had paper shims under the gibs.  He has a mess now.  He and you would have been money ahead to have paid an expert to examine the machine before you paid out hard earned money for junk.  If the dealer told you the machine was a "Project machine"  then you can pay less, but if he sold you as a machine "in running condition"  He is a crook.  This is why the  honest Machine Tool Dealers give you a 30 day money back guarantee.  I can't say it enough that if you can go test the machine do it.  Or hire someone to test  it for you.
> 
> Jan I hope you have a copy of "Machine Tool Reconditioning"  as Chapter 27 was written by Kearney Trecker and Cincinnati new machine builders on how to build or rebuild a horizontal mill.  Look at pictures 27.7 and 27.8 as it shows you how to test the spindle to the column.  I also do a slightly different method as I attach a ground test bar to the top of the spindle spindle and spin the test bar so it is parallel to the spindle bearings.  I will scan a rough drawing later and add it to this post. The rule you have to follow here is the horizontal spindle is fixed and not adjustable and you have to test and scrape everything to it.  Unlike a Vertical Mill like a Bridgeport or Jim's machine, the spindle is attached to a removable headstock and it can be adjusted or scraped to be aligned to the top of the table.   After you scrape column parallel to the spindle then you scrape the knee, saddle and table on both types of vertical and horizontal machines.    You have to assume that 99% of all machines were built accurately from the factory, so it isn't the same as they had to do when building the machine new.
> I have to go, but will write more later.   Rich    PS>  Many parts of the Connelley book is a waste of time or I do not agree with the techniques, but it is a good text book for you to follow.



Hello there Richard, I hope you are doing well, even a bit tired. You sure are busy teaching.. I know I have a project on my hands here, and apart from the broken casting, I guess I knew what was coming. Price was OK. We'll see how it progresses. I will follow what you say, and start scraping the column. Take care, Jan


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## Richard King

jshaugjord said:


> Hello there Richard, I hope you are doing well, even a bit tired. You sure are busy teaching.. I know I have a project on my hands here, and apart from the broken casting, I guess I knew what was coming. Price was OK. We'll see how it progresses. I will follow what you say, and start scraping the column. Take care, Jan




Be a detective and check it all out first before scraping.  I suggest you use as big a surface plate you can find to set on the columm and a straight-edge.  Plus using the spindle to get your alignment to .0002" / 12".   Rich


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## jshaugjord

Richard King said:


> Be a detective and check it all out first before scraping.  I suggest you use as big a surface plate you can find to set on the columm and a straight-edge.  Plus using the spindle to get your alignment to .0002" / 12".   Rich


Will try my best. I have just bought my friends 1,2 x 0,8 m plate, which I will use as we did in class. Then I have a portable long granite surface (was part of a CMM), 100cm long that I can use on the column, as well as a 1,5m Brown & Sharpe camelback, though the latter really wears you down muscling it back and forth. The ways are 85cm, so this should work. Yes, I will measure, and measure again before I attempt the scraping. PS! I have an old BIAX, "blue" version, but this single speed type, is running too fast for my skill level at 100%. However, connecting it through a variAC (ie. "external" Rheostat), I can use it better down at 50-60% speed. Also, as you mentioned, the shorter, stiffer holders are not so good (at least not for beginners) as the more flexible, longer we used in class. I will order this type, but for now I use the Anderson blade (with the soldered on tip) in the holder I got. The shank of the Anderson blades are about 2 inches long, and as a mounting, it becomes more flexible. Seems to work (as an intermediate solution anyhow). Another thing is that the stroke length is limited, so the machine isn't that good for roughing. Do you know if there were different types of this early scraper, Richard? I know of one with the switch at the top (near where you have the thumb), while mine has the ON/OFF switch underneath (180 degrees from the other). The stroke length is also reportedly longer (20mm), while one mine it is a only 7-8mm (hmm.. the scale is 20mm.. something must be wrong..).


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## slektning

Im sorry if i fooled you into buying a boat anchor Jan :whiteflag: I will do my best to hjelp you out of this mess )
If you want you can borrow my biax when you pick up the surface plate. Looking forward to see this mill back to its former glory! Just let med know if i can hjelp out with something!


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## Richard King

jshaugjord said:


> Hi all,
> greetings to my "classmates" from the Georgia scraping class and our mentor R.King.
> 
> I have been trying to hone my scraping skills, as best I have had the time to (my friends camelback.. happens to be just the thing we practised, ie. one surface flat and to 40 ppi). I learned a lot in Georgia, something I would never have done without Richards teaching. I hope I will do him right with my efforts on my projects.. Another side of the class experience was that I had a he.. of a good time! Better vacation I could not have had.
> One major project I have aquired is a Schaublin SV52 mill, details found at http://www.lathes.co.uk/schaublinmiller/page5.html (thanks to my friend Ola, who convinced me that I just had to have this mill, as can be seen by his grinning face after I had been talking with the salesguy at the local Danish machine dealer..)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 54691
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> 
> I did try the machine somewhat before committing, but as Ola proclaimed "it cannot be much used as there is hardly no paint chipped off.." hmm..the machine is a good 50 years old  How well do you know Ola?    That looks more like a "grin" then a smile...ha ha...is his brother the machine dealer?   ha ha....Who took the picture, the dealer? The old owner  may have used it very heavy for 1 year and it sat for 49 years in his storage....  ha ha  (just kidding)
> View attachment 54692
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pic of the mill in my garage, having been delivered by the typical Danish freight company driver working in slippers, truck with summer tires (down to my place went well, but in Oslo in the hillside in wintery conditions to where he went..?)
> Well, to put it short, I have found both wear and breakage (as would be expected). You Danes are know for your relaxed (easy) state right?   Slippers...ha ha ha   that's funny
> Listing as goes:
> - The casting holding the brass nut for the in/out table feed was almost broken off, and parted entirely when I put it to the test.
> A good lesson to block the machine between the top of table and column and top ram or spindle head.  a 4' x 4" wood block.  The used machine dealer should have know this.  Ask him to pay for the cracked casting.  Did your friend run the machine under power?   When you buy a used car, do you take it for a test drive?   Or just look at it?
> One part is still stuck to the underside of the bigger part that onto which the table rests/slides. I have not yet been able to solve the puzzle of how to get apart, but I hope I am in for a "AHA!" experience. Anyway, the 2 cast iron parts are candidates for either brazing or welding together.. We'll see. That is a fix that may be held off until later. Update! I am told it is also possible to "nest the parts together" using Metalock. Ie. no heating, welding or traditional stuff.. sounds too good to be true.. will investigate further as there is a local Metalock company in my city.  I have heard of it being used in big expensive castings. I would have it brazed by a pro.  Look at the CA class or South Bend forum under "Ulma Doctor"   he can tell you how to brazehe did some sweet work to his south bend compound.
> 
> - a couple of broken nuts/screw remaindings in holes etc. Not the biggest problems   I would also do what Jim did check with the factory and see if you can buy new parts.  Sometimes it sounds expensive, but when you spend hours making or fixing something a new one is worth the expense.
> - Some more or less rusty parts. Also not much concern
> - a lot of grime and dirt, as well as a good portion of greas/oil/swarf mixture.. again, no problem, just work..
> - Then onto the topic that is more interesting, namely how much work is needed to restore it to its' former accuracy..
> The old lady is Swiss, and on the heavy side at 1200Kg (2600lbs), so she's hard to wrestle around. I have plans to get her on her back having undressed her down to the bare neccessities.. that is, scraping the column ways et.    Please be safe, buy, rent, make a A-Frame hoist to lift things (portable crane) or check with a local rigging company or tow truck operator to help you do it.
> 
> One thing I see you did not mention was the top round slide.  be sure to check it and the rotating heads.
> 
> She may have a coat of fresh paint, but I am no artist, so if it can be avoided..Jim is a pro at painting as he does his antique cars.  I would clean it and use a paint roller like we used for the ink and a quality paint brush, use a good quality primer and oil based paint.  I have also used a Wagner electric paint sprayer, but it takes more work.  Air painting makes a cloud of vapor and inside an attached garage will flow into your home...
> 
> The table sideways measurements shows about +/-5/100 (2/1000") deviation from center. To my knowledge, the table itself is bowed, and "hangs" down on each side by this amount. This is confirmed by setting a level on the table which proves it is high in the middle. Pic show one of the table flatness tests (I did front, middle and back as well as crosswise all corners, all the same results). Right, Richard.  I think I mentioned the Professor who says the tables bend do to the peening of the tee slots and stretching the top of the table when they tightened the vise and parts down. He is right but I also believe it bends after years of unsupported travel or leaving it extended out unsupported for long periods of time. You may want to have the table top machined or ground and see if it bends back.  You could scrape it, but it would not look original, you said the scraping on table?  Was the table scraped for accuracy or was it just flaked / scraped for cosmetic looks?.  If you are short of funds now scrape it as  .002" 2/1000 isn't real bad.  If you want to bring it back to new, it should be straight and parallel all over, dovetails, top sides, bottom flat's .0002"/12"  2/10000 in 12".  The machine could be classified as super precision too and if it is .00005" / 12"  50 millionths in 12".  Have to check that out with a sales catalog or a call to the factory..  I am assuming they are still in business?
> View attachment 54693
> 
> The underside of table, ie. table ways, are pretty flat, though the scrapemarks are almost gone. I also measured the box ways after I had removed the table, leaving the knee ways exposed. In/out travel seems OK, ie. almost no difference. The horisontal ways seems to have seen less wear, and these seem flat and parallel. The main errors are in the vertical box ways. The knee slopes towards the left and out. Going down there is about 20/100 mm (8/1000") movement to the left from top to bottom (45 cm) and about 25/100 mm (10/1000") out.
> Yes you need to do more detective work here and discover what ways are touching when new and what ones are clearance.  To be honest I have never scraped this type of mill, but it is the same as others in the way it works  Many times the center ways are the guiding ways and the outside ways are clearance.  The gib screw maybe out of adjustment and you may need to put a temporary shim behind it to make your tests.  You can mic the column ways at the top and bottom and these area are normally never worn and are original.  Measure them and then in the middle.  Remember what I said, measure clearance surfaced as they were machined at the same time as the ways and you can use them as a guide to find out the wear in the ways. Remove the sheet metal guards, those surfaces under there were machined at the same time the ways were machined and use a surface gage to measure from them to the ways.   Be a detective, measure twice and cut once as the old saying says.  You maybe able to write the factory and get the new machine inspection sheets to follow.   Oh did you have your blade square tested?
> 
> 
> View attachment 54697
> 
> The column has box ways, with the gib on the right (inside) of the left way as seen from the front. With this gib drawn in tight, there is still room for a 10/1000" feeler gage on the opposite side of the left way (same ways as the gib). This is probably because the left side of the righthand way also bears, so no matter if the gib is tight, there is still play. The top side of both keep-plates behind the ways also have play, indicating signs of wear of the mating members here, ie. the back of the ways?
> The left side box way is higher than the right side, so it won't "sit" directly on the granite table. Therefore it seems easier for me to scrape the horisontal box ways while the knee is fixed to the column. See above on horizontal ways.  I would say after you match fit the back of the knee and fit the rear hold downs I would also scrape the top of the knee on the machine so I can measure the squareness as the machine sets when it is assembled with the knee feed screw.  You will want to leave the front of the knee plus at least .0001 to .0002" + in 12" so as you load the saddle and table on the knee it will sag from the weight.  You may want to call the factory and ask them this question too.  If the back of the knee has a worn area next to an original no worn area, depth mic this and if the wear is very bad, then you may want to make the front of the knee + .0005 to .001" plus.  Also check to see if the oil holes are plugged.  or pump to the back of knee is broken while being the detective as no oil could make it wear so bad.  It might be possible the company who owned the machine seldom used the table, but bored holes feeding the knee up on a production job.  Maybe you can call the used equipment dealer or look at the manual and discover who owned it before and give them a phone call and ask about the history of the machine.  The picture below does not show way wipers as the one showing the front of the saddle.  Is the way wipers on the Z Horz. ways?  From the photo's I can't see where the gib is located and the opposite positive side on the knee where it touches or guides.
> View attachment 54698
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> 
> Scraping this will be a challenge with the stepped top, I will have to think about that, to get it square with the Z ways   You may ask the factory how thick a shim to set under the one side of the square.  Or use the saddle and straight-edge in combination to scrape the top of knee and set the square on the top of the saddle to measure with the blade square.  I will let you know after I think about it.  But if you measure the ends like I said and scrape off the same amount off each side and re-measure it as you scrape should keep it original...hmmmm  this should work.   Set the square on a parallel  and gage block (s) to span the top ways.  Remember what I said about straight oil grooves?  You can see the area where the bottom of the saddle has straight grooves and left high areas on the top of the knee.  Builder now seldom use straight oil groves in new machines because of that problem.   You readers need to always put in diagonal oil groves in as they wear the complete matching way.
> 
> Is this OK practise? Out of lazyness, since the knee is already sitting there, I thought maybe I could scrape the horisontal ways first. OK? I guess this would void the term "building the house from the foundation and up"?  Ie. normally you start at the bottom and work up: First remove the knee and scrape the column, then the mating member, then mount back the knee.  See above.
> Also, from your experience, which of the box way surfaces are clearance, if any? Left vertical way bears both sides, but is the right way meant to have clearance on one side? See above, measure the ends where they seldom wear and the clearance surface next to the wear ways.
> Many questions, and I know you're progressed to another scraping class, but I thought you might like to hear from me... Kind rgds, Jan Sverre[/QUOTE
> 
> This will be a great learning project.   Do your homework and clean the machine very well.  Make sure to clean the dirty worn parts as you remove them and store them in plastic bags with labels.  Never use a paper box, use a tin or plastic container.  Check with the factory on what new parts cost.  They will be more likely to give you engineering help if you buy new parts from them.
> Take some more photo's and please ask more questions.  You may also want to find a local retired machine rebuilder to help you.  He might be sitting at home bored and would help for free, just to have fun again.   Thanks Jan and have a great time scraping,  Rich  )
> 
> I attached some pic's of Jan that was taken last month in Georgia while he took my scraping class.
> PS:  I did not edit the other guys post, I hit the wrong "edit" post at the bottom of his post, thinking it was mine.   OOoopppps , sorry.


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## jshaugjord

- He..he.. Ola and I are quite well aquainted by now, both being bitten by the "old iron bug". I was the photographer, so I plead quilty to the purchase of the "project". No blame to Ola.
We were in a hurry, so I knew we could have taken more time to evaluate and if it wasn't a ferry ticket and drive etc. away, would have had a 2nd look at it. I could then possibly have bargained the price down, so that is the lesson to learn. Anyway, I reasoned there would be hidden defects (yes, have done this before..) and I guess at that price all one get is UP- or "OOTG"-warranty (directly translated "out of the gate warranty..), so I kinda knew I was in for it.If I would throw out a wild guess on how long it would take just to dis-assemble, clean, paint and re-assemble, let alone all the alignment and scraping I 
will try to undertake, I think the dealer show have given me the machine for free.. ha..ha
- Re. cracked casting,should have tested more, though honestly it did work when it was tried briefly under power. This one was a surprise defect. I may try to contact the dealer, but my expectations are low..On the positive side, the casting parts are now freed and I have learned some more about the complexities of this design. I am ready to take the part to our local welding shop for his opinion. He will also not rip me off totally for the job. We'll see what he says.
- Will have a look at the SB brazing post. Thanks!
- Will also contact the factory. However, though Schaublin is still in business, they make really expensive stuff so I might be in for a "fantasy price"
- Agree, re. the one-man-op working on heavy things, one cannot be too careful. There will always be situations you didn't plan/foresee, so a generous safety margin is needed.I have a general workshop mobile engine hoist, capacity up to 2t, so should do fine. The mill is now soon down to parts, and the column is actually a split, ie. 2 castings, whereas the foot is a casting by itself. This is also hollow and form a resevoir for the coolant
- The cylinder with the head mounting are now "loose", so will be removed and inspected. Pics coming
- Will take your advice on the use of the painting. Think I will just roller etc. No spray painting..
- Can have the table top ground, but I am more akin to scrape it, though this was not original. Well, we'll see how good I can be.. practise makes perfect..
Yes, Schaublin is still in business, but taken over by a consortium of machine dealers (maybe they went broke first?) I know a guy that are actually on "friendly terms" with one of the dealers, and they emply some old "scraping hands" to refurbish machinery. They might be able to give some hints. As you also say, maybe soem "old dogs" are bored spending their days with the wife at the mall.. longing for the workshop again..
- Really good advice Richard on the measurment/scraping of the table, column and knee! This is very much the info I seek! I have by now moved ahead and measured and investigated some more. The inner ways does seem to be the guideways, and the outer clearance. Gib is on the inner, left way. Looking at the videos I made of the up/down movement of the knee, it suggest to me that it is rocking some. Laying the gib on the surface plate showed it is bowed. The blade square specs says OK, but it is Chinese.. will test it against our other equipment at work.
 I had removed the wipers already when I took the photos. Making more measurements (awaiting I muster up to flip the 
column over), I have the knee all the way down, and I do tests with a straightedge on portion of the column flats. Same as will be done afterwards, but of course just on rougly half the length (the remainder being occupied by the knee), they are within 3/100mm (1.2/1000"). The horisontal surfaces are also good to within 3/100", using a feeler gage. Hmm, maybe I have done something wrong when I did the "live" tests.
OK. Will try your suggestion re, measuring the knee.
Yes, I remember you talking about the oil grooves. Actually, it seems someone has disconnected the oil pump, and used grease instead. Hmm..
What is the idea behind the stepped top? I mean, is there any advantage as compared to having them both at the same "level"?
PS! I have taken loads of pictures of the dis-assembly, and have tried to pack everything logically. Zip-lock bags are a good suggestion. Will contact the Swiss guys at the factory and at the dealers.
Thanks for all the answers Rich! Much appreciated that you take your time to go through and really get into the details. Will have more questions later.
Take care,
Jan Sverre


----------



## Richard King

It sounds as if you have a handle on everything.  Your question "What is the idea behind the stepped top? I mean, is there any advantage as compared to having them both at the same "level"?   I am guessing the design was made that way as the raised way is the guide way and it's close to the feed screw and it looks like the table crank is on the left and heavier, so I would guess that's the reason.  Ask the factory and see what they say.  You can mic it too and get it parallel or make a surface gage with the pins and indicate it    I look forward to helping, hearing what the factory says and if you can get a experienced factory trained helper.   Rich

PS:  Allan the host of the Wisconsin class bought  Chinese blade square and it was off a mile....I think he said .008" 8/1000 and he had a real problem returning it.  He bought it on Ebay from a large seller of squares and granite angles.


----------



## jshaugjord

Hi everyone,

Still alive if someone wondered..
It has been a busy time lately, at all fronts, being a father, son, husband and employee, hence the hobby activities have suffered.

Anyway, I have managed to get the “beast” into manageable parts and moved them indoors (doing something in a non-heated garage in sub-zero temps in winter-Norway was not an option, therefore better move on while the “green-winter” (immigrant joke about the Norwegian summer) is still around..). As can be seen from the pictures, a “workshop moveable 1,5ton crane and a pallet lift are very handy. As is a strong, though somewhat reluctant helper (my son). He had the obvious answer to the obvious question after sweating the heavy iron to its’ present resting place: “Yes, it would have been better if you collected stamps”. He, he..

For those of you interested, som pics of the disassembly and moving
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 56790
View attachment 56791
View attachment 56793
View attachment 56794
View attachment 56795
View attachment 56796
View attachment 56797
View attachment 56798
View attachment 56799
View attachment 56800



Now, since the thread wasn’t really to be about picking the mill to parts or moving it (though hopefully the pics are of some interest. The design of the mill is pretty complex, and I had some “aha, that’s how” moments. Good to have those pics when assembly time comes around).

After some cleaning of the column/ways, I have come around to the first inspection of the bare metal.

The initial measurements I did so far shows that the upper front surface of the boxed ways are flat within +/-0,01mm over its entire length (apprx. 900mm). The ends of each way are unworn, leaving 4 “pads” as reference. There is a faint ridge where the oil groove on the rear ways on the knee has been, which probably confirms what Richard said about this design and that makers nowadays prefer the zig-zag pattern (and the way he taught us in class when putting on the Rulon and making oil grooves). The ridge is however hardly detectable, and as best I could measure, must be less than 0,005mm (2 ten-thousand). The worn area is roughly where the knee would be expecting to spend its’ life, I guess, so no surprise. The straight-edge test would not allow a 0,02 mm (thinnest in my collection, rounding up to 1/1000 “) feeler gauge anywhere. I will of course blue it up and test. But, the straightedge pivots in the middle on top of the ridge on both ways, indicating a slight deviation from flatness. This is the same on both ways, as well as for the milled surface in between (though this center section is quite rough, it may still be used as reference? Further checks needed). I have tried different straightedges, and they measure the same (pivoting slightly at the same area). If I test beside the ridge, it is perfectly flat.. so there was a 5/10.000 bow in the ways originally?? Anyway, as far as I can measure, it is very close to flat.
View attachment 56801
View attachment 56802
View attachment 56803
View attachment 56804
View attachment 56805


The micrometer checks reveals that there is some wear in the same areas, but seemingly not more than 0,02-3mm at the most for the thickness of both ways (more numbers later..). I am not sure just how much wear to expect on the mating knee part, or if this checks out with the earlier “live” measurements, but have time to figure out. The width reading confirmed the same wear pattern, most deviation seen on the left way. This is the way where the gib rides on the inside (numbers later). However, wear does not exceed 0,03mm
View attachment 56806
View attachment 56807
View attachment 56808
View attachment 56809


I will improve on the setup and do more measurements before commencing the scraping. As I was eager to get going, the mill column (I guestimate around 6-700Kg) is put onto 2 wooden blocks, and to get the tree points, I will split the block near the bottom part into 1 for each left/right sides and support the upper part of the casting with a screw jack, so I can adjust closer to level (I really would want a Kingway!). I am not at all convinced it will make a difference, but let’s see..

I will probably also measure the knee first before doing any scraping. As I measured the actual movements for the assembled machine, I would have expected more wear on the column, but that might indicate the knee being more worn. Or maybe the gibs were making problems? It will be interesting to see, going step by step through this.

And yes, I will not leave erroneous measurements out of the question. After all, I am an amateur.. but as such, I have the luxury of taking my time as no one is counting the hours I put into it

Holiday season emerges and I am due for a lazy fortnight on a small Greek island (Naxos)
Happy scraping,
Jan Sverre


----------



## Richard King

First thing I want to say is I am so proud of you and all the students who are using what I taught them and your decisions to share here on Hobby Machinist.  Thank You all.  



jshaugjord said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Still alive if someone wondered..
> It has been a busy time lately, at all fronts, being a father, son, husband and employee, hence the hobby activities have suffered.
> 
> Anyway, I have managed to get the “beast” into manageable parts and moved them indoors (doing something in a non-heated garage in sub-zero temps in winter-Norway was not an option, therefore better move on while the “green-winter” (immigrant joke about the Norwegian summer) is still around..). As can be seen from the pictures, a “workshop moveable 1,5ton crane and a pallet lift are very handy. As is a strong, though somewhat reluctant helper (my son). He had the obvious answer to the obvious question after sweating the heavy iron to its’ present resting place: “Yes, it would have been better if you collected stamps”. He, he..
> _
> Growing up and living in the Siberia of the USA I can relate to green summers.  ha ha_
> 
> 
> For those of you interested, som pics of the disassembly and moving
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 56790
> View attachment 56791
> View attachment 56793
> View attachment 56794
> View attachment 56795
> View attachment 56796
> View attachment 56797
> View attachment 56798
> View attachment 56799
> View attachment 56800
> 
> 
> I love the inner tire tube your using to support the ram, very cleaver
> 
> Now, since the thread wasn’t really to be about picking the mill to parts or moving it (though hopefully the pics are of some interest. The design of the mill is pretty complex, and I had some “aha, that’s how” moments. Good to have those pics when assembly time comes around).
> 
> After some cleaning of the column/ways, I have come around to the first inspection of the bare metal.
> 
> The initial measurements I did so far shows that the upper front surface of the boxed ways are flat within +/-0,01mm over its entire length (apprx. 900mm). The ends of each way are unworn, leaving 4 “pads” as reference. There is a faint ridge where the oil groove on the rear ways on the knee has been, which probably confirms what Richard said about this design and that makers nowadays prefer the zig-zag pattern (and the way he taught us in class when putting on the Rulon and making oil grooves). The ridge is however hardly detectable, and as best I could measure, must be less than 0,005mm (2 ten-thousand). The worn area is roughly where the knee would be expecting to spend its’ life, I guess, so no surprise. The straight-edge test would not allow a 0,02 mm (thinnest in my collection, rounding up to 1/1000 “) feeler gauge anywhere. I will of course blue it up and test. But, the straightedge pivots in the middle on top of the ridge on both ways, indicating a slight deviation from flatness. This is the same on both ways, as well as for the milled surface in between (though this center section is quite rough, it may still be used as reference? Further checks needed). I have tried different straightedges, and they measure the same (pivoting slightly at the same area). If I test beside the ridge, it is perfectly flat.. so there was a 5/10.000 bow in the ways originally?? Anyway, as far as I can measure, it is very close to flat.
> _
> I would guess it bows in the middle because as I teach, the dirt gets in on the ends and wear there and the ways get high in the middle.  I just saw this on a rebuild of a Nikkon Centerless Grinder too.  This is why I always lower the middle .001" to .0015 lower in the middle 40%.  Your machine was probably built that way too and it has worn so it is high now.  The picture of indicating the center area that looks like it's painted is not something that looks real good to me.  Does it look to you it was once a smooth surface?  It appears in the picture to be a rough casting.  I do teach the students to check the non wear surfaces that were no doubt machined at the same time the way surfaces were machined.  On a Swiss, German, Japanese British, European, Taiwanese and USA machines I would say that is the norm, but after seeing some of the Chinese machines I would not say that can be trusted.   I am glad you saw the problem with cutting a straight oil groove is.  Even though yours is so small.  But be sure to scrape it off first before scraping using the blue on your straight-edge.  Remember to remove all ridges first after you measure them._
> View attachment 56801
> View attachment 56802
> View attachment 56803
> View attachment 56804
> View attachment 56805
> 
> 
> The micrometer checks reveals that there is some wear in the same areas, but seemingly not more than 0,02-3mm at the most for the thickness of both ways (more numbers later..). I am not sure just how much wear to expect on the mating knee part, or if this checks out with the earlier “live” measurements, but have time to figure out. The width reading confirmed the same wear pattern, most deviation seen on the left way. This is the way where the gib rides on the inside (numbers later). However, wear does not exceed 0,03mm
> 
> _Remember what I said about leaving the top of the knee slightly high in front and if you look at the book Petras (one of the other students who was super computer friendly and found a copy on the net) sent you links to and the copy I brought to the class "testing machine tools"  it will show that test.   I am also impressed with the design of the back of the knee as to the ratio of the way surface to the top of the knee.    I would suspect as you do, it will probably be the rear hold-downs that so more wear then the knee.   On Bridgeports, they are worn on the bottom 2 pads of the knee flat ways and the top dovetails are where the wear is.   _
> 
> View attachment 56806
> View attachment 56807
> View attachment 56808
> View attachment 56809
> 
> 
> I will improve on the setup and do more measurements before commencing the scraping. As I was eager to get going, the mill column (I guestimate around 6-700Kg) is put onto 2 wooden blocks, and to get the tree points, I will split the block near the bottom part into 1 for each left/right sides and support the upper part of the casting with a screw jack, so I can adjust closer to level (I really would want a Kingway!). I am not at all convinced it will make a difference, but let’s see..
> 
> _When I taught all those classes in Taiwan we did experiments using 3 points and of the dozens of machines we did over a couple of years of testing we found 3 points was a key to getting proper alignment.  I am so happy to see you thinking about it, as I feel using 3 points is also a lost art.  You have the pictures of the King-Way so you should be able to make one or some sort of sled or T-shaped device to set your level (s) on.  Also remember when your taking the measurements the very top and very bottom seldom are worn, so you can use the end on those box ways to keep the geometry the same as it was when new.  _
> 
> I will probably also measure the knee first before doing any scraping. As I measured the actual movements for the assembled machine, I would have expected more wear on the column, but that might indicate the knee being more worn. Or maybe the gibs were making problems? It will be interesting to see, going step by step through this.
> 
> _You may find it out of square because it was made that way new  High in front.  When you measure the knee off the machine for squareness on a plate don't be surprised to see it that way, so keep that in mind when you test it.   As I teach, I would make those final squareness tests when the knee is standing up on the column and the weight is balanced on the elevating screw as it will be when assembled._
> 
> And yes, I will not leave erroneous measurements out of the question. After all, I am an amateur.. but as such, I have the luxury of taking my time as no one is counting the hours I put into it.
> 
> _Yes as my father in law who was a woodworker hobbyist used to say, measure twice, cut once.   _
> 
> Holiday season emerges and I am due for a lazy fortnight on a small Greek island (Naxos)
> Happy scraping,
> Jan Sverre



_My wife and I loved Corfu,   Have a relaxing trip.  
Rich

PS:  I am glad you are showing your son to rebuild....Pass on your knowledge.   I never enjoyed stamp collecting, to boring!  
_


----------



## jshaugjord

Thanks Richard!
You inspire me to go at it.. maybe I should stay in the hobby room instead of going to Greece..hmm?

Growing up and living in the Siberia of the USA I can relate to green summers.  ha ha
That was a good one! I guess you also know much about prepping for winter. My wife kept pestering me about our bedroom being too cold, and when I (finally) went at it, I saw the former owner had left the insulation of the outer wall completely. No wonder I measured -4C at the floor level when it hit -25C outside.. it was a "no-brainer", to give "room" for hobby, it is now fixed (interpret it the way you want)

I love the inner tire tube your using to support the ram, very cleaver  
Yeah, well.. it is actually one of those new fangled excersize balls.. it had to be used for something, even deflated. It did the trick. Ram & head was probably 100Kg alone, so was not easy to handle. I guess this is where the designers built a degree of smartness into the machine.. you can turn the spindle in each angle you want, and in the horisontal mode you can extend 2 hefty bars and put a long arbor in use with support the usual way (though for my use I doubt if I ever need that)

I would guess it bows in the middle because as I teach, the dirt gets in on the ends and wear there and the ways get high in the middle.  I just saw this on a rebuild of a Nikkon Centerless Grinder too.  This is why I always lower the middle .001" to .0015 lower in the middle 40%.  Your machine was probably built that way too and it has worn so it is high now.  The picture of indicating the center area that looks like it's painted is not something that looks real good to me.  Does it look to you it was once a smooth surface?  It appears in the picture to be a rough casting.  I do teach the students to check the non wear surfaces that were no doubt machined at the same time the way surfaces were machined.  On a Swiss, German, Japanese British, European, Taiwanese and USA machines I would say that is the norm, but after seeing some of the Chinese machines I would not say that can be trusted.   I am glad you saw the problem with cutting a straight oil groove is.  Even though yours is so small.  But be sure to scrape it off first before scraping using the blue on your straight-edge.  Remember to remove all ridges first after you measure them.

The area between the ways is rough milled, but maybe too rough to be useful. There are 2 definite lines along the length, indicating it was milled in 3 strokes, though the mill marks indicates a larger diameter mill. Anyway, I may not need this surface. I have used citrus-rinse to clean up the mill (I have been nagged about smelling gasoline or similar so often that I thought it was a good idea to try this). Seems to function OK. There are some marks on the surface.. pitted (rust!)
The mill is supposedly of very good make, but of course it is a long time since it has been born, and she has seen some use I am sure. It is anyway made properly, though "over-engineere"d in many respects (for example the former mechanical design for stepless speed control now perhaps being better soved with a VFD?)

Yes, I will take away the ridge first and scrape it flat.

The oil-groove on the back side of the knee ways confronts me with a possible challenge: Do I retain the ways as is, of course correcting the geometry and scrape as best I can, OR do I rough mill it out and put on Rulon/Turcite, and make the zig-zag groove recommended? The 1st option seems the easist, and it will brobably "outlast me" anyway, but the 2nd option will give some hands-on training, though it might be better to practice on smaller items first. Will give it some thought

_Remember what I said about leaving the top of the knee slightly high in front and if you look at the book Petras (one of the other students who was super computer friendly and found a copy on the net) sent you links to and the copy I brought to the class "testing machine tools"  it will show that test.   I am also impressed with the design of the back of the knee as to the ratio of the way surface to the top of the knee.    I would suspect as you do, it will probably be the rear hold-downs that so more wear then the knee.   On Bridgeports, they are worn on the bottom 2 pads of the knee flat ways and the top dovetails are where the wear is.   _

Will read-up on this again (fantastic book btw..). I am eager to do those mesurements, and also to find out how/if they correlate with the "real-life" measurement, travelling up/down

_When I taught all those classes in Taiwan we did experiments using 3 points and of the dozens of machines we did over a couple of years of testing we found 3 points was a key to getting proper alignment.  I am so happy to see you thinking about it, as I feel using 3 points is also a lost art.  You have the pictures of the King-Way so you should be able to make one or some sort of sled or T-shaped device to set your level (s) on.  Also remember when your taking the measurements the very top and very bottom seldom are worn, so you can use the end on those box ways to keep the geometry the same as it was when new.  _

I will put the casting on 3 points before I leave for holiday! As I now know about this, it seems so obvious. I wish I had more brains so I could also think logic like this.
Same thing with the spin-test, I mean to find the Airy-points as you described and showed us. So very logical! Why cannot I find out myself.. I am alos amazed how sensitive you can make this test, and to which degree it seems to be possible to test the surface just doing that.

I am thinking about a sled as you suggest. When I get the casting reasonably level, I should be able to use a machinist level on top of the sled in combination with a normal indicator (sort of a "cumbersome to use" Kingway). I see how the need for a Kingway emerged.. 

I am also wondering if I am able to scrape the undersides. Hard to get to these areas, as I cannot envision myself flipping this casting over. Is it wise to think about grinding these, rigging up some contraption? I guess not..? A dovetail like the Bridgeport is handled while having the column laying as mine?

Yes, my plan was to use what seems pristine areas of the ways, what appears to be scraping marks still visible

_You may find it out of square because it was made that way new  High in front.  When you measure the knee off the machine for squareness on a plate don't be surprised to see it that way, so keep that in mind when you test it.   As I teach, I would make those final squareness tests when the knee is standing up on the column and the weight is balanced on the elevating screw as it will be when assembled._

OK. Shall keep in mind. This knee way design is a bit ackward in comparision with a Bridgeport as you cannot set the knee directly on table. It is an X, so to speak, both ways crosssing each others paths. The vertical surfaces extending further up than the horisontal ways, as well as the horisontal ways "blocking" as they extend further back than the vertical ways. Makes sense to out on granite table anyway, onto necessary high gage blocks? Or just test directly on the (by then) flat column ways?
I guess you have come across this or similar situations, and had to think alternatives..

_Yes as my father in law who was a woodworker hobbyist used to say, measure twice, cut once.   _
Wise statement!

_My wife and I loved Corfu,   Have a relaxing trip.  
 Rich_
Thanks.. will enjoy. 
_
 PS:  I am glad you are showing your son to rebuild....Pass on your knowledge.   I never enjoyed stamp collecting, to boring!  
_Will try, but as for now he seems more into hanging out with friends etc. than listening to dad
Tried stamps.. fun for awhile, but they fell down the ranking list. However, I guess it is good we are not all alike.


----------



## Richard King

[h=2]Re: Restoration of my Schaublin SV52 toolroom milling machine[/h]Thanks Richard!
You inspire me to go at it.. maybe I should stay in the hobby room instead of going to Greece..hmm?

If you do that, you will be a proud member of the :nuts:  rebuilding society...........:rofl:​


----------



## Richard King

I tried to edit the questions and comments from Jan and my answers......sorry if it is confusing, but I can't figure out how to change the color of the font.   Rich 




jshaugjord said:


> Thanks Richard!
> You inspire me to go at it.. maybe I should stay in the hobby room instead of going to Greece..hmm?
> 
> Growing up and living in the Siberia of the USA I can relate to green summers.  ha ha
> That was a good one! I guess you also know much about prepping for winter. My wife kept pestering me about our bedroom being too cold, and when I (finally) went at it, I saw the former owner had left the insulation of the outer wall completely. No wonder I measured -4C at the floor level when it hit -25C outside.. it was a "no-brainer", to give "room" for hobby, it is now fixed (interpret it the way you want).  _We all know who the boss is..lol...I have been in love with my lovely boss for 38 (I think) years  Don't tell her I forgot...lol....In my first house that was built in 1940 we had a upstairs bedroom with pine tongue and groove paneling on the walls.  In the winter it was cold as the north pole up there.  I installed new windows up there and discovered the insulation was 4 layers of newspaper.  LOL.......I had insulation foam pumped into the walls.  Really made a difference.  I suspect the old owner preferred it cold as I discovered the boss didn't cuddle for the warmth after that...lol  _
> 
> I love the inner tire tube your using to support the ram, very cleaver
> Yeah, well.. it is actually one of those new fangled excersize balls.. it had to be used for something, even deflated. It did the trick. Ram & head was probably 100Kg alone, so was not easy to handle. I guess this is where the designers built a degree of smartness into the machine.. you can turn the spindle in each angle you want, and in the horisontal mode you can extend 2 hefty bars and put a long arbor in use with support the usual way (though for my use I doubt if I ever need that)
> 
> _(Rich) That is funny!!   A Exercise ball....I bet it was a Christmas present from the boss?   Those old machine designs were made to last for years.  Can't imagine seeing many of those cheap Asian imports being rebuilt after 60 years of dependable service.
> _
> 
> I would guess it bows in the middle because as I teach, the dirt gets in on the ends and wear there and the ways get high in the middle.  I just saw this on a rebuild of a Nikkon Centerless Grinder too.  This is why I always lower the middle .001" to .0015 lower in the middle 40%.  Your machine was probably built that way too and it has worn so it is high now.  The picture of indicating the center area that looks like it's painted is not something that looks real good to me.  Does it look to you it was once a smooth surface?  It appears in the picture to be a rough casting.  I do teach the students to check the non wear surfaces that were no doubt machined at the same time the way surfaces were machined.  On a Swiss, German, Japanese British, European, Taiwanese and USA machines I would say that is the norm, but after seeing some of the Chinese machines I would not say that can be trusted.   I am glad you saw the problem with cutting a straight oil groove is.  Even though yours is so small.  But be sure to scrape it off first before scraping using the blue on your straight-edge.  Remember to remove all ridges first after you measure them.
> 
> The area between the ways is rough milled, but maybe too rough to be useful. There are 2 definite lines along the length, indicating it was milled in 3 strokes, though the mill marks indicates a larger diameter mill. Anyway, I may not need this surface. I have used citrus-rinse to clean up the mill (I have been nagged about smelling gasoline or similar so often that I thought it was a good idea to try this). Seems to function OK. There are some marks on the surface.. pitted (rust!)
> The mill is supposedly of very good make, but of course it is a long time since it has been born, and she has seen some use I am sure. It is anyway made properly, though "over-engineere"d in many respects (for example the former mechanical design for stepless speed control now perhaps being better soved with a VFD?)
> _
> *(Rich) Have to ask Tommy Brooks about the VFD as I'm not good with electricity.  I am not proud to say I have smoked (burnt up) several electrical testers in my day.  LOL
> It's basic about the non wear surface, you will figure it out....*_*.*
> 
> Yes, I will take away the ridge first and scrape it flat.
> 
> The oil-groove on the back side of the knee ways confronts me with a possible challenge: Do I retain the ways as is, of course correcting the geometry and scrape as best I can, OR do I rough mill it out and put on Rulon/Turcite, and make the zig-zag groove recommended? The 1st option seems the easist, and it will probably "outlast me" anyway, but the 2nd option will give some hands-on training, though it might be better to practice on smaller items first. Will give it some thought
> _
> *(Rich) In some cases where the machine really shows wear because of this flaw in the oil groove design, I will fill the straight ones with a product like Moglice or Devcon Plastic Aluminum and regrind Zig Zag grooves.  In your case the machine is how old? and only has a .0002" ridge?   I would leave it alone.
> *_
> 
> _Remember what I said about leaving the top of the knee slightly high in front and if you look at the book Petras (one of the other students who was super computer friendly and found a copy on the net) sent you links to and the copy I brought to the class "testing machine tools"  it will show that test.   I am also impressed with the design of the back of the knee as to the ratio of the way surface to the top of the knee.    I would suspect as you do, it will probably be the rear hold-downs that so more wear then the knee.   On Bridgeports, they are worn on the bottom 2 pads of the knee flat ways and the top dovetails are where the wear is.   _
> 
> Will read-up on this again (fantastic book btw..). I am eager to do those mesurements, and also to find out how/if they correlate with the "real-life" measurement, travelling up/down
> 
> _When I taught all those classes in Taiwan we did experiments using 3 points and of the dozens of machines we did over a couple of years of testing we found 3 points was a key to getting proper alignment.  I am so happy to see you thinking about it, as I feel using 3 points is also a lost art.  You have the pictures of the King-Way so you should be able to make one or some sort of sled or T-shaped device to set your level (s) on.  Also remember when your taking the measurements the very top and very bottom seldom are worn, so you can use the end on those box ways to keep the geometry the same as it was when new.  _
> 
> I will put the casting on 3 points before I leave for holiday! As I now know about this, it seems so obvious. I wish I had more brains so I could also think logic like this.
> Same thing with the spin-test, I mean to find the Airy-points as you described and showed us. So very logical! Why cannot I find out myself.. I am also amazed how sensitive you can make this test, and to which degree it seems to be possible to test the surface just doing that.....
> _
> *That's why just reading a book, can't show you the "tricks of the trade" and a mentor helps.*
> _
> I am thinking about a sled as you suggest. When I get the casting reasonably level, I should be able to use a machinist level on top of the sled in combination with a normal indicator (sort of a "cumbersome to use" Kingway). I see how the need for a Kingway emerged..
> _
> *On another forum RC99 (I think that's his name) down in Australia has a picture of a sled he made.  I will see if I can find it and email it a picture to you*
> _
> I am also wondering if I am able to scrape the undersides. Hard to get to these areas, as I cannot envision myself flipping this casting over. Is it wise to think about grinding these, rigging up some contraption? I guess not..? A dovetail like the Bridgeport is handled while having the column laying as mine.
> _
> *(Rich) You have 2 easy choices.  Lay the machine on the side and scrape with the ways being in the vertical position.  Rolling the column over should be easy as long as you keep the weight on the ground.  Use 4 x 4" wood or buy some more exercise balls. *_:lmao:_*
> 
> (Rich) You can also buy some very sharp files and draw file it and then lay a mirror under the way and scrape upside down to give it some oil pockets  I am serious as I have done this a few times in my career.  It's a pain getting used to scrape backwards in the mirror.  Use your friends Biax with a 20 radius blade as it will be very easy to scratch.*_
> 
> Yes, my plan was to use what seems pristine areas of the ways, what appears to be scraping marks still visible
> 
> _You may find it out of square because it was made that way new  High in front.  When you measure the knee off the machine for squareness on a plate don't be surprised to see it that way, so keep that in mind when you test it.   As I teach, I would make those final squareness tests when the knee is standing up on the column and the weight is balanced on the elevating screw as it will be when assembled._
> 
> OK. Shall keep in mind. This knee way design is a bit ackward in comparision with a Bridgeport as you cannot set the knee directly on table. It is an X, so to speak, both ways crosssing each others paths. The vertical surfaces extending further up than the horisontal ways, as well as the horisontal ways "blocking" as they extend further back than the vertical ways. Makes sense to out on granite table anyway, onto necessary high gage blocks? Or just test directly on the (by then) flat column ways?
> I guess you have come across this or similar situations, and had to think alternatives..
> 
> *(Rich)  The gage blocks or parallels will work or set it on the column when it is laying back  Your a super bright guy, you will figure it out
> *
> _Yes as my father in law who was a woodworker hobbyist used to say, measure twice, cut once.   _
> Wise statement!
> 
> _My wife and I loved Corfu,   Have a relaxing trip.
> Rich_
> Thanks.. will enjoy.
> _
> PS:  I am glad you are showing your son to rebuild....Pass on your knowledge.   I never enjoyed stamp collecting, to boring!
> _Will try, but as for now he seems more into hanging out with friends etc. than listening to dad
> Tried stamps.. fun for awhile, but they fell down the ranking list. However, I guess it is good we are not all alike.



*(Rich) My son never got interested in girls until his early 20's, he was always playing computer games, but now if I have a problem with my computer he types a few things, pushes some buttons, gives me "the look" and says Dad it's fixed.  
**
You know THE LOOK, Your wife gives it to you all the time.  Now shut off the computer and go have fun! *


----------



## Gearco

Jan, let me know when you are ready and I'll come over and help you paint it. 





jshaugjord said:


> Thanks Richard!
> You inspire me to go at it.. maybe I should stay in the hobby room instead of going to Greece..hmm?
> 
> Growing up and living in the Siberia of the USA I can relate to green summers.  ha ha
> That was a good one! I guess you also know much about prepping for winter. My wife kept pestering me about our bedroom being too cold, and when I (finally) went at it, I saw the former owner had left the insulation of the outer wall completely. No wonder I measured -4C at the floor level when it hit -25C outside.. it was a "no-brainer", to give "room" for hobby, it is now fixed (interpret it the way you want)
> 
> I love the inner tire tube your using to support the ram, very cleaver
> Yeah, well.. it is actually one of those new fangled excersize balls.. it had to be used for something, even deflated. It did the trick. Ram & head was probably 100Kg alone, so was not easy to handle. I guess this is where the designers built a degree of smartness into the machine.. you can turn the spindle in each angle you want, and in the horisontal mode you can extend 2 hefty bars and put a long arbor in use with support the usual way (though for my use I doubt if I ever need that)
> 
> I would guess it bows in the middle because as I teach, the dirt gets in on the ends and wear there and the ways get high in the middle.  I just saw this on a rebuild of a Nikkon Centerless Grinder too.  This is why I always lower the middle .001" to .0015 lower in the middle 40%.  Your machine was probably built that way too and it has worn so it is high now.  The picture of indicating the center area that looks like it's painted is not something that looks real good to me.  Does it look to you it was once a smooth surface?  It appears in the picture to be a rough casting.  I do teach the students to check the non wear surfaces that were no doubt machined at the same time the way surfaces were machined.  On a Swiss, German, Japanese British, European, Taiwanese and USA machines I would say that is the norm, but after seeing some of the Chinese machines I would not say that can be trusted.   I am glad you saw the problem with cutting a straight oil groove is.  Even though yours is so small.  But be sure to scrape it off first before scraping using the blue on your straight-edge.  Remember to remove all ridges first after you measure them.
> 
> The area between the ways is rough milled, but maybe too rough to be useful. There are 2 definite lines along the length, indicating it was milled in 3 strokes, though the mill marks indicates a larger diameter mill. Anyway, I may not need this surface. I have used citrus-rinse to clean up the mill (I have been nagged about smelling gasoline or similar so often that I thought it was a good idea to try this). Seems to function OK. There are some marks on the surface.. pitted (rust!)
> The mill is supposedly of very good make, but of course it is a long time since it has been born, and she has seen some use I am sure. It is anyway made properly, though "over-engineere"d in many respects (for example the former mechanical design for stepless speed control now perhaps being better soved with a VFD?)
> 
> Yes, I will take away the ridge first and scrape it flat.
> 
> The oil-groove on the back side of the knee ways confronts me with a possible challenge: Do I retain the ways as is, of course correcting the geometry and scrape as best I can, OR do I rough mill it out and put on Rulon/Turcite, and make the zig-zag groove recommended? The 1st option seems the easist, and it will brobably "outlast me" anyway, but the 2nd option will give some hands-on training, though it might be better to practice on smaller items first. Will give it some thought
> 
> _Remember what I said about leaving the top of the knee slightly high in front and if you look at the book Petras (one of the other students who was super computer friendly and found a copy on the net) sent you links to and the copy I brought to the class "testing machine tools"  it will show that test.   I am also impressed with the design of the back of the knee as to the ratio of the way surface to the top of the knee.    I would suspect as you do, it will probably be the rear hold-downs that so more wear then the knee.   On Bridgeports, they are worn on the bottom 2 pads of the knee flat ways and the top dovetails are where the wear is.   _
> 
> Will read-up on this again (fantastic book btw..). I am eager to do those mesurements, and also to find out how/if they correlate with the "real-life" measurement, travelling up/down
> 
> _When I taught all those classes in Taiwan we did experiments using 3 points and of the dozens of machines we did over a couple of years of testing we found 3 points was a key to getting proper alignment.  I am so happy to see you thinking about it, as I feel using 3 points is also a lost art.  You have the pictures of the King-Way so you should be able to make one or some sort of sled or T-shaped device to set your level (s) on.  Also remember when your taking the measurements the very top and very bottom seldom are worn, so you can use the end on those box ways to keep the geometry the same as it was when new.  _
> 
> I will put the casting on 3 points before I leave for holiday! As I now know about this, it seems so obvious. I wish I had more brains so I could also think logic like this.
> Same thing with the spin-test, I mean to find the Airy-points as you described and showed us. So very logical! Why cannot I find out myself.. I am alos amazed how sensitive you can make this test, and to which degree it seems to be possible to test the surface just doing that.
> 
> I am thinking about a sled as you suggest. When I get the casting reasonably level, I should be able to use a machinist level on top of the sled in combination with a normal indicator (sort of a "cumbersome to use" Kingway). I see how the need for a Kingway emerged..
> 
> I am also wondering if I am able to scrape the undersides. Hard to get to these areas, as I cannot envision myself flipping this casting over. Is it wise to think about grinding these, rigging up some contraption? I guess not..? A dovetail like the Bridgeport is handled while having the column laying as mine?
> 
> Yes, my plan was to use what seems pristine areas of the ways, what appears to be scraping marks still visible
> 
> _You may find it out of square because it was made that way new  High in front.  When you measure the knee off the machine for squareness on a plate don't be surprised to see it that way, so keep that in mind when you test it.   As I teach, I would make those final squareness tests when the knee is standing up on the column and the weight is balanced on the elevating screw as it will be when assembled._
> 
> OK. Shall keep in mind. This knee way design is a bit ackward in comparision with a Bridgeport as you cannot set the knee directly on table. It is an X, so to speak, both ways crosssing each others paths. The vertical surfaces extending further up than the horisontal ways, as well as the horisontal ways "blocking" as they extend further back than the vertical ways. Makes sense to out on granite table anyway, onto necessary high gage blocks? Or just test directly on the (by then) flat column ways?
> I guess you have come across this or similar situations, and had to think alternatives..
> 
> _Yes as my father in law who was a woodworker hobbyist used to say, measure twice, cut once.   _
> Wise statement!
> 
> _My wife and I loved Corfu,   Have a relaxing trip.
> Rich_
> Thanks.. will enjoy.
> _
> PS:  I am glad you are showing your son to rebuild....Pass on your knowledge.   I never enjoyed stamp collecting, to boring!
> _Will try, but as for now he seems more into hanging out with friends etc. than listening to dad
> Tried stamps.. fun for awhile, but they fell down the ranking list. However, I guess it is good we are not all alike.


----------



## jshaugjord

Hi guys, I came back a week and half ago, but have been busy with further refurb of the house (not that I was not having my hands full, but my wife had more plans..).

*Sidestep 1 :* We had a massive rainfall here last night, and sure enough, another problem manifested itself.. rain came through our new refurbed bedroom. So I have to redo the inner roof (you know, tear down the new roof plates, plastic insulation.. all that fun stuff, dry out, then another round..), then have someone seal that veranda floor (under which the bedroom is), meaning a new membrane etc. That is where the “error” comes from. Just rung them up, they are here 16:30 to have alook. Which means I have a whole wooden platform and guard railing to remove. OKidoki.. first things first..
So much for the grunt..

*Sidestep 2:* The vacation was great, just like the previous ones we have taken to Naxos. This year we also stayed at Mykonos, and as the incoming/outbound flights are from Santorini, were there too. The Cyclads (Aegean sea) islands are connected through a system of ferries, large and small, and you can get "anywhere". However, after 14 days in the sun, I am "toast" (literally), and ready to get back home again, though one always longs back right away (2-3 beers and a few Ozo’s a day is OK when on holiday, but I have to step down a bit back home)

PS! At Santorini, I saw one “Moto hire” (you know, where you can hire all kinds of scooters, motorbikes, 4-wheelers etc. They had a Myford ML7 (painted yellow, and awfully dirty) in the shop. I found their setup interesting, but I had no time to chat with these guys. That is as far as I came to lathes/mills during my holiday, apart from plowing through Connely’s once more (to prepare for what is to come).

PS! I am aware this is not a "social forum" so if this will be edited , I am good with that.. I just thought I'd mention some words on this..

*Thanks to Gearco*
for his suggestion on coming over here to help out with the painting of the mill. I may consider to take him up on that offer.. can do with some pro help.. he, he. 
I anyway plan to paint the column after the scraping is done on the ways and the foot is once again mounted. I think I will select a color scheme as close as possible of the original, though I may reconsider. Open for suggestions..

If he is thinking about a tour/holiday over here in Scandinavia anyway, incl. Stockholm for a visit at Abene http://www.abene.se/engelska/about-abene?, I can suggest to take the scenic tour over the mountains to Bergen (from Oslo), then the Hurtigruta to Nordkapp. See links.. If the weather is OK, there isn’t many other more nice tours to take (from an “experiencing the landscape point of view”) (getting somewhat off topic, but you can stand a little Norway “reklame”, can’t you?)

http://www.norwaynutshell.com/en/explore-the-fjords/norway-in-a-nutshell/
http://www.hurtigruten.us/?country=US

PS! I have only taken the train trip to Bergen and back (with some of your countrymen, colleagues of mine.. the Hurtigruta is too expensive for me)

*Back on track..*
Richard mentioned that I made some kind of sled to use as a platform for the instruments when measuring the ways (not having a Kingway). I thought the simpler, the better, and something that wasn’t going to require a lot of skills, take a lot of time or have to be very precisely made. Of course, some sacrifices are then inevitable (after all, something like the Kingway is a product of (I guess) a substantial amount of R&D, experience, machining abilities etc. etc.), so it is not as universal, neither as sophisticated. My attempt is just a version of the Connely’s book frame. See video. This is just a piece of soft steel, with 3 point contact using balls from a ball-bearing (tried to get a small contact point). These are just glued on, but this seems to hold-up. Then another piece of steel with 2 balls is attached and functions as a 2 contact bearing against the sides. On top of this sled I can mount the level, and a magnet foot with indicators etc. It has been stable and sturdy in use. 

I started testing parallelism with a machinist level on this sled.

I wasn't aware of the senstivity of the level, but suspected it was the same as one Chinese I have used, at 0.02 mm/m. The levele in question had a 61R vial, but since these comes in 4 different versions from 0.1, 0.05, 0.02 and 0.01 mm/m, I neded to find out. This is how I found out (if I have made a blunder, please speak out!)
The contact points on the sled are 21 cm apart, which means that the level is actually 0.004 mm/mm sensitive (proven by calibrating against a known “error”, a 0.02mm shim)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBNrIKnBIDk

Ie. the level used has a sensitivity of 0.0002'' per 10'' (or 0.02mm/m)

PS! I think I will do *all numbers from here on in real units = inches. *This is after all a US website, and most of you guys are not metric, are you?

Way system is roughly 33” long. I divided this into 2” increments
Minus sign for the numbers below means deviation left-wise against a zero “ref”. reading on the outside right way or up on the left side from flatness

Parallelism test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZgjkpdRYFU&feature=youtu.be

Results were as follows:

From top 
(inch)
 
Diff. between left and right column way (inch)
0,0
0
2,0
0
4,0
0
6,0
0
8,0
0,00016
10,0
0
12,0
0
14,0
0
16,0
0
18,0
0,00016
20,0
0,00016
22,0
0,00024
24,0
0,00032
26,0
0,00032
27,5
0,0004
29,5
0,0004
31,5
0,00032
33,0
0,0004

 
Zero reading on top and then rising to the right as you come down towards the bottom. Not too much,  ie. worst is  little less than 3 tenths per foot

Then I set the level in the longitudinal direction. If the level was put directly onto the way, and moved in increments of its’ length, it would only produce 4 measurements. Hence I thought I could repeat using the sled. The balls are around 3.5” apart, ie. good resolution on the level:


From top 
(inch)
 
Left column way (inch)
Right column way (inch)
0,0
0
0
3,5
-0,00024
-0,00016
7
-0,00031
-0,00016
10,0
-0,0002
-0,00016
12,0
-0,00024
-0,00012
14,0
-0,00028
-0,00016
16,0
-0,00028
-0,0002
18,0
-0,00031
-0,0002
20,0
-0,00031
-0,00024
22,0
-0,00031
-0,00024
24,0
-0,00031
-0,00024
26,0
-0,00031
-0,00024
27,5
-0,00031
-0,0002
29,5
-0,00028
-0,00012
31,5
-0,00028
-0,00012
33,0
-0,00031
-0,0002

 
The upper measurement gave me a jump in the reading compared with the next, and from this the ways were almost flat. So I divided this 1[SUP]st[/SUP]  into 3 measurements, which proved that the very top of the ways are high, tapering down in the first inch or two.
Worst error per foot is just a little more than 3 tenths, but if we disregard the upper reading, error is down to 1 tenth..

Measurements on the column ways (sides) to indicate how much wear there were the next on the agenda (a BEFORE documentation)

View attachment 58594


PS! The bearing surfaces are the inner vertical sides, ie. inside of the left- and right box ways. The outer vertical surfaces are clearance. I found out (dumb me..), pretty obvious. Apart from the the gib’bed inner-left way, the inner-right way is the only other with a lube track/hole. A visual inspection of the outsides of the ways revealed this.. like Richard said “be a detective”! He also stated before in this thread that is often so, insides being bearing- and outsides clearance surfaces.. Experience tells! This means that all I really needed to measure were the distance between the left- and right way “insides”? I did however measure all 4 surfaces, and from both left- and right sides with either left- and right clearance surfaces as reference for the readings, ie. comparative measurements, and also confirming these with direct measurements against both inner faces as well as readings with micrometer measurements. Of course this is overkill, but at this stage I am learning, and paying attention to different aspects of the procedures/practizing different techniques cannot be more wrong than spending a few more hours..

Way system, column Schaublin SV52

From top 
(inch)
 
Outer
 Inner      
Inner 
Outer ( ref.)
Deviation for bearing inside surfaces
0,0
?
-0,00059
0,00039
 0,00000
-0,00098
2,0
?
-0,00059
0,00079 
 0,00000
-0,00138
4,0
0,00000
 0,00000
0,00000  
 0,00000
0,00000
6,0
0,00039 
 0,00020
0,00020
 0,00000
0,00000
8,0
0,00000
 0,00039
0,00000
 0,00000
0,00039
10,0
0,00000 
0,00059
0,00000
 0,00000
0,00059
12,0
0,00000
 0,00079
0,00000 
 0,00000
0,00079
14,0
0,00000
 0,00118
-0,00039
 0,00000
0,00157
16,0
0,00000
 0,00098
0,00000
 0,00000
0,00098
18,0
0,00000
  0,00079
-0,00039
 0,00000
0,00118
20,0
0,00039
  0,00059
0,00000
 0,00000
0,00059
22,0
0,00079
  0,00000
0,00039
 0,00000
-0,00039
24,0
0,00118
  0,00000
0,00059
 0,00000
-0,00059
26,0
0,00138
 -0,00059
0,00059 
 0,00000
-0,00118
27,5
0,00118
 -0,00079
0,00079
 0,00000
-0,00157
29,5
0,00118
 -0,00157
0,00118 
 0,00000
-0,00276
31,5
0,00098
 -0,00157
0,00138 
 0,00000
-0,00295
33,0
0,00079
 -0,00197
0,00138  
 0,00000
-0,00335

 
? means I forgot to take reading..
Pardon if the measurements comes out somewhat strange.. I just thought that having the right-hand side of the right column way as the reference, thinking this could be close to zero since it was clearance and has what seems a ground surface finish

Pics of first blueing (liberal amount of blue applied)
View attachment 58602

View attachment 58601

I did several tries with different levels/plates, and different amount of blue.. all confirm. High in the middle
See how the amount of blue makes a difference..
View attachment 58595
View attachment 58596
View attachment 58597


I must build/buy myself a honer/sharpener. Until now, I have coped, putting a diamond wheel in a lathe, revs ways down, 5 degree rest in the toolholder etc.
This setup is not optimal, so a grinder is my 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] pri. (Yes, I have seen Richard’s auction, but the motor is 110V, and the freight etc. will make this alternative less favourable (though the Glendo is probably the best option (after all, if a pro uses it as his standard tool, you can consider it a “no-brainer”, ie. just go at it if you have the chance)).

I am sorry for my slow approach, but I thought it would prove later to be sensible to do these measurements before commencing scraping. Had I been a pro, well..


----------



## Richard King

Jan,

Looking good!  As you checked the column and it was reading so good, I think it was riding on the unworn oil groove area. Remember I teach  "remove all ridges first".  How deep are your scrape marks?  Look like _chicken scratches_ to me. :thinking:

Be sure to always put the adjusted level to the same end of your alignment bar.  I like to mark it with a marker.  Just in case you get tired and forget.  All in all It looks excellent.  Have to thank Tommy again for letting us use his shop.  That was one of the memorial classes I have had.  Rich


----------



## jshaugjord

Richard King said:


> Jan,
> 
> Looking good!  As you checked the column and it was reading so good, I think it was riding on the unworn oil groove area. Remember I teach  "remove all ridges first".  How deep are your scrape marks?  Look like _chicken scratches_ to me. :thinking:
> 
> Be sure to always put the adjusted level to the same end of your alignment bar.  I like to mark it with a marker.  Just in case you get tired and forget.  All in all It looks excellent.  Have to thank Tommy again for letting us use his shop.  That was one of the memorial classes I have had.  Rich[/QUOTE
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> will dig in and try to avoid "chicken scratchin" , can also mike the depth
> thought i give my new/old biax a try on the column ways, i can run this with a variac and tune the rpms to match my skill level
> 
> I had a fantastic week down there, and i will remember and miss it.
> if i have the chance i may come again
> 
> that also goes for another class, if i can get things going  workwise and afford it


----------



## jshaugjord

Figured I had no more excuses for not starting to scrape, I hit it..

After 3 passes each way with the old Biax, rpms down, but trying to dig in (still needs to practice sharpening the blades and honing the flats, and have a better setup), roughing technique, ie. circles, I start getting coverage from top to bottom, but still nothing at the worn area on the left way

Just because I was curious, I checked the parallelism also (before turning in at night).. the total error was down to less than 1 line (as compared with 2,5-3 before)! Wow! Actually for all but the lowermost reading it was within half a line on the level. If my math is correct this should be less than 2 tenths (or around 1 if you don’t count the very lowest area)

My scrapes with the Biax are in average 2-3/1000 mm, ie. a little shy for a roughing cut.
PS! The blades I have used are with a larger than optimal radius for a beginner skill level.. The plan is to purchase a set of Dapra holders with integral blades, but at the moment I must make do with what I have
Seems to be OK anyway.

Next day..
Thought I show you after some more passes, and some scraping- and blueing action with results
I know I put my head on the block so to speak (like standing up in class and answering to the teacher..), but feel free to comment on my technique (or lack of it), improvements/errors seen etc. 

PS! The amount of blue shown in the end (last video) is somewhat excessive (at least compared with previous pics), but since I’m still roughing, I guess OK.
The white polka dots on the rear side of the blueing bar (was part of a Johanson CMM) are felt pads I used for 3 point contact when the bar is stored away
I was also brushing the chips/scrape-offs to the middle.. evidence that some material has come off
Yes.. the hearless head always blocking the shot belongs to yours truly..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNOBaBh1C0&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il1fsbg8Wjw&feature=youtu.be

The mill column is actually at a convenient height to hip-scrape with a manual scraper, but for power scraping I found it necessary to either sit down or be at my knees. I tried to remember to keep the Biax tucked in well, horizontal and move it sideways with hip action.

I also made another parallelism test with the sled and level, and now the error is 2-3 lines (again), ie. apprx. within 4 tenths for the whole 33 inch length (I guess most 3 tenhts per foot), so still OK

I must also do the X-check both ways, as well as comparing against the spindle/dummy spindle. After some thought, this may require the whole spindle-column inserted again, using the spindle with an indicator on a test bar. However, to rotate the spindle in this vertical placement, it will have to rest against some dead-flat and rigid surface (when in normal use, the weight is not an issue, and I reckon the spindle is not rotated while milling, only in between as part of an angular setup, either freely rotating it to any setting or in the 15 degrees steps with lock), then locking down the whole spindle-column. This issue may lead me to make a setup, say a square test bar (adequately flat) that can ride on the lip just inside the big bore and the indicator on the end moved sideways.. I am not sure.

PS! For the observant viewer, I made a blunder with the last (for the camera action) scraping cycle.. doing it the same direction/angle as the former. Well, I guess it evens out, but the point with the marking with a pen was just that, to avoid those mistakes..

The vids are non-edited, but I suppose I ought to cut down lengthy sequences and put comments in..


----------



## jshaugjord

jshaugjord said:


> Figured I had no more excuses for not starting to scrape, I hit it..
> 
> After 3 passes each way with the old Biax, rpms down, but trying to dig in (still needs to practice sharpening the blades and honing the flats, and have a better setup), roughing technique, ie. circles, I start getting coverage from top to bottom, but still nothing at the worn area on the left way
> 
> Just because I was curious, I checked the parallelism also (before turning in at night).. the total error was down to less than 1 line (as compared with 2,5-3 before)! Wow! Actually for all but the lowermost reading it was within half a line on the level. If my math is correct this should be less than 2 tenths (or around 1 if you don’t count the very lowest area)
> 
> My scrapes with the Biax are in average 2-3/1000 mm, ie. a little shy for a roughing cut.
> PS! The blades I have used are with a larger than optimal radius for a beginner skill level.. The plan is to purchase a set of Dapra holders with integral blades, but at the moment I must make do with what I have
> Seems to be OK anyway.
> 
> Next day..
> Thought I show you after some more passes, and some scraping- and blueing action with results
> I know I put my head on the block so to speak (like standing up in class and answering to the teacher..), but feel free to comment on my technique (or lack of it), improvements/errors seen etc.
> 
> PS! The amount of blue shown in the end (last video) is somewhat excessive (at least compared with previous pics), but since I’m still roughing, I guess OK.
> The white polka dots on the rear side of the blueing bar (was part of a Johanson CMM) are felt pads I used for 3 point contact when the bar is stored away
> I was also brushing the chips/scrape-offs to the middle.. evidence that some material has come off
> Yes.. the hearless head always blocking the shot belongs to yours truly..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQNOBaBh1C0&feature=youtu.be
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il1fsbg8Wjw&feature=youtu.be
> 
> The mill column is actually at a convenient height to hip-scrape with a manual scraper, but for power scraping I found it necessary to either sit down or be at my knees. I tried to remember to keep the Biax tucked in well, horizontal and move it sideways with hip action.
> 
> I also made another parallelism test with the sled and level, and now the error is 2-3 lines (again), ie. apprx. within 4 tenths for the whole 33 inch length (I guess most 3 tenhts per foot), so still OK
> 
> I must also do the X-check both ways, as well as comparing against the spindle/dummy spindle. After some thought, this may require the whole spindle-column inserted again, using the spindle with an indicator on a test bar. However, to rotate the spindle in this vertical placement, it will have to rest against some dead-flat and rigid surface (when in normal use, the weight is not an issue, and I reckon the spindle is not rotated while milling, only in between as part of an angular setup, either freely rotating it to any setting or in the 15 degrees steps with lock), then locking down the whole spindle-column. This issue may lead me to make a setup, say a square test bar (adequately flat) that can ride on the lip just inside the big bore and the indicator on the end moved sideways.. I am not sure.
> 
> *BTW!* I did make some checks with the level (not the one I keep adjusting..)  X and Y on the face of where the spindle column sits, so as I move along with the scraping I can use this as reference
> 
> PS! For the observant viewer, I made a blunder with the last (for the camera action) scraping cycle.. doing it the same direction/angle as the former. Well, I guess it evens out, but the point with the marking with a pen was just that, to avoid those mistakes..
> 
> The vids are non-edited, but I suppose I ought to cut down lengthy sequences and put comments in..



Back to work..


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## DMS

Thanks for letting us follow along. It takes a lot of fortitude to handle something like this, especially the first time, but it looks like you are well on your way. You mention that you had your bluing kinda thick; I found that actually helped when roughing things out. On my first attempt I was applying it way too lightly, which caused me lots of problems. 

As far as sharpening, I had pretty good luck with a small super-fine diamond hand lap. I would place it on the bench, then hold the scraper, handle up. Then I would draw the scraper toward me, following the arc of the blade. 

I also recall seeing plans in one of the machinist magazines where the author build a rotary lap using a bench grinder, and machining a cast iron disk to fit in place of the grinding stone. The disk was then charged with diamond lapping compound.


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## jshaugjord

DMS said:


> Thanks for letting us follow along. It takes a lot of fortitude to handle something like this, especially the first time, but it looks like you are well on your way. You mention that you had your bluing kinda thick; I found that actually helped when roughing things out. On my first attempt I was applying it way too lightly, which caused me lots of problems
> 
> As far as sharpening, I had pretty good luck with a small super-fine diamond hand lap. I would place it on the bench, then hold the scraper, handle up. Then I would draw the scraper toward me, following the arc of the blade.
> 
> I also recall seeing plans in one of the machinist magazines where the author build a rotary lap using a bench grinder, and machining a cast iron disk to fit in place of the grinding stone. The disk was then charged with diamond lapping compound.



Hi there, thanks for replying.
Yes, I knwo re. the blueing.. can be troublesome to see if using too little. I just thought I had applied somwhat more than I should have, spots becoming a little "smeared out". Looking closer, I can see they are not, so I was good.

I also tried that technique, also with a diamond lap, but had less success than you and never really got the hang of it. I will however make myself a simple honer, using a small motor, driving a diamond wheel at a low speed. A friend of mine made a nice one where the motor sits on a piece of aluminium U-bracket, then a table (also alu bracket) hinged to the motor bracket so you could set the table at angles. Real simple, though I think I will make adapter with set angles instead..just cut-offs that can be bolted/slid in place in fron of the wheel


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## jshaugjord

Hi again,

Just to explain more on the alignment of the ways in relation to the spindle on this type of mill.
(I know, I am an engineer and tend to over-analyse things..)
Before starting the scarping, I set up the level on the rim of the hole which the spindle-column normally occupies.
I reason that the best practise (text-book style) would be to have the spindle in-place, and attach an indicator to this and rotate the spindle so it sweeps a surface, but as explained earlier (at least in my freshmans eyes), couldn't see how this rotation was going to happen with certainty of keeping this column perfectly at the same "height". It is very heavy, and since this weight is normally not "carried" in the vertical axis, I thought I needed to come up with another arrangement. I could be mistaken, of course.. amateur mistakes etc. but thought that instead I'd mesure from the rim of the hole to the ways, using the rim surface as a sub-reference. This needed not be absolutely flate/levelled and if I just made a note of the deviation in X- and Y- from this surface to the column ways, I could use this as a relative reference while scraping, ensuring that I didn't move from the original plane. In reality, the column ways were not far off, so it might not have mattered. Also, the head can be swung in both planes, so if the in/out movement of the column is just for positioning, ie. not in use while milling, well..
NB! My assumption was that the top of ways (not being worn) could be used to make the comparative X- and Y- measurements, and also that the spindle column was in fact square with the ways. 

I am however tempted to make up some contraption so I can reference directly to the spindle column..


----------



## jshaugjord

Last post today, I promise.

I carried on where I left this morning. Made some progress..  I hope!
Swopped to a couple of series with manual hip-scraping (for the try)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwYmFAiMZwM
(I know.. should have started at the the farther end, to avoid scraping over the chips..)
The blueing now seemingly has good bearing all over, so I altered technique, shortening the stroke trying to focus more on points than area
After 3 passes, I see I have gained some points, but also lost a little area contact at the lowest end. I have less blue on now than I had, so it can also be I was in fact being hasty determining I was ready for goint for bearing.. we'll see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl40JyHlvjQ
(I know.. excessive deburring..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DApDSF3QcBU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H2bVpRlVFY

( I chose videos again, because I seem to have an issue with images.. I guess I have exceeded my account, so need to adress this first)


----------



## Richard King

Jan, The bluing looks like it is higher on the inside of the column ways .  Remember you need to make yourself scrape the further away area as you will unconsciously scrape harder near to you.  Unless its a dovetail and flat, as its a pain to scrape at the bottom of the doevetail unless your relieve  it with a thin cut off wheel or a beveled edge of a carbide blade.   

The bearing looks good, but lay a combination square on the ways at 45 deg and draw some pencil lines to your checker board looks more uniform.   Remember to not stone to hard or to many times, all you want to do is remove the burr at the front edge of the scrape mark.  You may want to make some sort of back ground color high lighter like my Yellow or we use to use red lead power to dull the shining metal so you can see the blue color better.  

If you have a surface plate that will cover both ways at once you will get a truer idea the ways are on the same plane.  If you do not have a plate, then turn your staright edhe at right angles and see how the angle of both side are to each other or plane from side to side.  It might be parallel with the level sled, but may be off   i--------i_______i--------i.   I hope you understand.   Rich


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## jshaugjord

Hi again folks,

I took the mentors advice, and did the X-check as well as spotting the 2 way sides as one flat surface (I called this local cross check).. dumb me, I knew about these test, but had forgotten.. maybe I got carried away doing the vids etc. but anyway.
As I don't have a big enough movable plate that can do both ways at an adequate length (but coming up..re-scraping an old 16x20" cast iron plate first), I also did a cross checkwith a 4" wide blueing bar, ie. in 4" increments (could have used the same long bar just cross-wise as this is 6", but it is ackward to handle this way). This of course only indicates over 4" inches, ie. a local check, but at least shows the left vs. the right way if they are in the same plane.
Hopefully I got the warning in time to avoid straying to far off, it seems like the results are a little inconclusive (at least for my untrained eyes).
Let's just say that this seemingly revealed that I have more scraping to do..  will however wait until I have the bigger(movable) plate so I get a better mark-up and decision base for further scraping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcloENm2Y2Q&feature=youtu.be
(If youwant to skip the lengthy intro, spool to 1:50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMcrX8KTUvo
The lower end, inside left way and outside right way, are not touching.
The X-check using the long granite plate slim side showed a more consistent mark-up, but not perfect
Last vid is just a glimpse into my cramped workshop. As told in the video, I am taking down the wall between the rooms shown, so I will be better off later
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zru4BcnKbI&feature=youtu.be
So next on the agenda is test & scrape the plate I will use for doing tests on the 2 column ways as one surface
I have a large granite table which should do as the reference


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## jshaugjord

Back in business again..
I have used the last 3 evenings to tune up the cast iron surface plate I had. The story may qualify for a thread, but I wrapped it into this one and made a video sequence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nyrSq0tY4&feature=youtu.be
I did a sequence of roughing and more refined cycles, alltogether close to 30.. each taking about 15-20 minutes I guess. You guys from the Georgia class, does this compute?
PS! I also tried to do a rub on the granite where there was no color, attempting to polish the highest spots, then looking at these shiny spots.. IMG, there were a few..
PS! I used canode highlighter on the last rubs

Feel free to comment, make suggestions, point to errors etc.

For one, I know I can improve on the final result with more scraping. I also realize it is a lot of work to do such a plate, even though it is not such a big one. wow, my sympathy goes to those that do the larger plates.. or did, in the days before granite plates became common. Sure is heavy labor..

PS! I should have ground another set of scraping blade with smaller radius, but used the same.. maybe taking a shortcut and buy directly from Dapra

You may be bored with the lengthy story now, but at least I have started with the mill coloumn ways again, and the blueing seems to confirm previous rubs, so I now have a chart to follow, ie. where to scrape more heavily
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDlGYCYYYbY&feature=youtu.be
Will flip it 180 degrees around just to see that the marking in general follows the way "errors", not the plate (in which case I surely will need to improve the plate)


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## Richard King

Jan, That scraping looks like a "pro" did it...super!!  Next time you rub the plate and your going to take it off the granite, lay a thin block of wood on the plate and use a long screw driver or pry bar and lever up under one of the handles so one end to break the suction before lifting it up. Will save on back ache and no take a chance of banging the plate to the granite.  
The progressive pictures really show the progress.  I love the checkerboard look you have too.  Some day if you want to make some money you can scrape surface plates for your night job. )

You really make me so proud to have been your teacher and friend.   Keep up the good work!

I was thinking when you set it on the machine to scrape, mic the 4 outer most corners from top to under hold down ways as these should be close to new.  and will give you a easy way to keep it parallel.  

Take care and GREAT JOB   (((((((((((Jan )))))))))))))))))  <--- guy hug

Rich


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## Erik Brewster

Very nice job being disciplined enough to scrape for just 5 spots / inch all over before refining. That surely saves a ton of time. You are doing a great job!


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## jshaugjord

Richard King said:


> Jan, That scraping looks like a "pro" did it...super!!  Next time you rub the plate and your going to take it off the granite, lay a thin block of wood on the plate and use a long screw driver or pry bar and lever up under one of the handles so one end to break the suction before lifting it up. Will save on back ache and no take a chance of banging the plate to the granite.
> The progressive pictures really show the progress.  I love the checkerboard look you have too.  Some day if you want to make some money you can scrape surface plates for your night job. )
> 
> You really make me so proud to have been your teacher and friend.   Keep up the good work!
> 
> I was thinking when you set it on the machine to scrape, mic the 4 outer most corners from top to under hold down ways as these should be close to new.  and will give you a easy way to keep it parallel.
> 
> Take care and GREAT JOB   (((((((((((Jan )))))))))))))))))  <--- guy hug
> 
> Rich



Thanks for the kind words and support Rich! It inspires me to keep going.
Good teachin. To everyone, take the class if you haven't already signed up.

Yeah, I kinda figured there was another way than muscling up to get the plate off the granite.. thanks for the tip

Will keep in mind the 4 corner vs. keep plate tests

Take care too. Hug back


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## jshaugjord

Erik Brewster said:


> Very nice job being disciplined enough to scrape for just 5 spots / inch all over before refining. That surely saves a ton of time. You are doing a great job!



Thnks for the nice comments.
It is not a small job to scrape the plate, that is for sure. I wonder how long it would take doing it with a manual scraper. Then again, I tried a couple of manual cycles and I seem to dig in more heavily with the Anderson scraper, so maybe it evens out..


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## jshaugjord

Hi again folks,

Not the speediest project, but some progression is made..

Summing up, to improve and qualify the of the column flat/front ways, I used both the long straightedge and the 16x40 surface plate and alternated between checking the progress with the level across/lengthwise. I referenced the flat face of the bore for the cylinder that mates with the milling spindle, and the measurements after scraping corresponds with those taken before (area on the top part of ways used because this was assumed to be unworn). For those not yet bored with my vids, links below.

Blueing as here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIx67K4hG6Q&feature=youtu.be
Level checks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6GvgOik1zY&feature=youtu.be

PS! I experienced some difficulties obtaining the same readings when using the level on top of straightedges (tried several).. I think Richard mentioned this also in another thread. .ie. in essence, I therefore stuck with using the level directly on the ways and got repeatable readings.

I made a small vid also just to show what I found useful when working on the ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzxfycWSSCs&feature=youtu.be
Maybe a help for others (and to show the correct way of undoing a “sucked in” plate on the granite..)

I have been using the BIAX with the speed control offered in the way of a VariAC (variable transformer), ie. just slowing the motor down with less voltage. This is NOT possible for eg. an induction motor, where the rpm is controlled with the frequency (like the nowadays usual mounting with a 3 phase motor with inverter drive). In the setup I have, I loose some torque, but the motor seemingly survives fine on 50-60% of the nominal voltage, and it really makes a difference for scraping. Another important factor is the flex in the scraping blade. I have used both the long and short shanks for insert blades, and used these with the Anderson blade (carbide tip brazed to a 2-3 inch long section). If I use a stiff holder I for sure cannot do anything with the power scraper, upping the speed to 100%, it all becomes 

The observant viewer may see/hear the diamond wheel on the motor is not perfectly balanced.. this is due to a plastic adapter not turned 100%.. will rectify. Also.. the “table” is not high enough on the wheel (should be halfway up).. was only a temporary mount

NOW, for something new..
I then finally moved on from the front ways and flipped (well, that was maybe a tad easier said than done..) the column over on the side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9p_M4Mv9hU&feature=youtu.be
As you can see, I used a somewhat un-traditional method of dealing with the casting, but it worked out well. I also like to think it was safe….

So, now that the summer projects are coming to a close I hope I put in more hours on the hobby, stepping up the pace a little (I guess, like many other places on the northern hemisphere we are prepping for winter.. have to do all you can outdoors before the cold sets in, never knowing when the weather wrecks your planned schedule)


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## jshaugjord

Thought I was through with scraping the upper side (blued up good..) BUT forgot to check if the side was 90 degrees with the front.
I used a ground V-block to check and seemed to notice an ever-so-slight “rock”. I then made different measurements with different methods, which confirmed the angle was somewhat lessthan 90 degrees, thereby producing this rocking motion.

A general aspect: 
It took awhile to understand what were errors introduced by the measurement technique/procedure, and what was real.
Also to get a “concensus” between these results obtained by the different ways of testing
As we learnt “in school”, tapping on a piece of metal against a solid, flat reference, you can hear/feel if there is equal, good contact. This is lacking..
AND I can get a 2/100mm (a little shy of 1/1000 inch) feeler stock some 1/4 way in (if Ikeep it the angle bracket flush with the front ways)
I made tests with a bar located against the sides, using an indicator, the level and a machinist angle. All 4 sides tested to see if eg. the 3 “unspoilt” ares at the top of the sides read the same where I could still see the scraping.. they didn’t.. hmm.. what to make out of that?
Some procedures that rely on a number of factors logically increases the measurement uncertainty, hence you can get conflicting results which really makes it somewhat confusing to interpret, at least for a newbie. Therefore, make “direct” measurements. In essence, keep it simple! This helps in“understanding” the readings.

Admittedly, I made the error not checking the angle while progressing with the scraping. Luckily, the area is small, hence less work, but it serves as a reminder to alternate between checking the “objectives” (as the Connelly book refers to)

I made another spotting tool/90 degree test fixture (tool stelel i think.. proved a challenge to scrape) which I can mount flush to the front ways, and blue up against the sides, in this way proving they are at the exact angles (it probably does not have anything to say for the outsides, as it is “only” the insides that bear, but it is a good test/training for alignment/scraping)

See also video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdp0zoOQoOs&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

More scraping..
Have tried to keep apace with documenting as I move along, and made a couple of more videos. Hope they are of help to others.

I managed to forget (again) to check if the outer way was "in line" with the inner way, so when I got there, even though this inner way had wear, I saw that I needed to correct the outer way to align it with the inner way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWozhr3EnKQ&feature=youtu.be
(Pls. disregard the spelling mistakes here and there.. the proof-reader falls asleep sometimes)
PS! I guess it was kinda overkill to finish these outer ways as they are clearance anyway, hence touches "only" on the rear sides.
Anyway, the purpose of this video was also to show the technique of step scraping to correct for this "alignment mistake. Hopefully I did justice to this..

Then I went on to the next side,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLmW_CtSOVU&feature=youtu.be
In this case I had a situation as I had on the camelback I am finishing for my friend, where the straightedge was only touching at the ends, therefore I tried to tip scrape, inwhich case one side is rough scraped only until it bears all over (if I have understood things as they should)

PS! The straightedge I used here (with a cross section reminding of a "squeezed together" thick railroad track) is a member of a family of four of different lengths that I recently aquired. The length is probably not so much of a problem, but the "handling" quality suffers as it weighs in at about 80lbs! However, it is the only one I can use on the inner ways.

The inner ways are straight and parallel to one another within 1/100 mm or 4/10ths as you would say along the 84cm ways (apprx.) 33" ways (as good as I could measure anyway)

By now, I have also finished the rear side of one of the two ways (this will be part of the topic for the next post), ie. one more to go before I can start scraping on the knee! Though I may "do/clean up" the column first with respect to finishing, meaning painting etc. hu..hu.. green (military) color away!?


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## Brain Coral

Hello Jan,

I have been peeking in, periodically, to your post and must say that you possess a very determined nature to go to the great lengths that you are going to and you never give up and accept less even if it means that you have to do something over again. Richard King must be a good teacher to have instilled such a good student in you. It is remarkable the level of work that you are achieving.

Cheers... 

Brian


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## jshaugjord

Thanks for kind words!

Yes, Rich is great teacher, and I learned alot in class. It is also true that the "follow up" he is doing, ie. contributing to our different projects in different ways is very helpful. Now, I don't know your "skill level", but if you aren't a pro, I'd say you should take his class. It shouldn't be that long a jorney for you south (I see you are Canadian.. as is one of nextdoor neighbors as a matter of fact). I keep repeating myself here, but I had such a great time down in Georgia. This will be a lifetime memory. The class, class-buddies, teacher & mentor & friend Rich, the gentleman & host Tommy Brooks and the "surroundings".. oh boy, nice location, big workshop (you have seen mine, I guess?)
Even the hotel, coffee shop and restaurant nearby was great (loved the food with black beans they served).. lady coming with the menu called you honey or sweetheart.. which man at 52 wouldn't fall for that.. ha. ha..

The computer & internet also makes it very easy to share with everyone, and I thought, why not.. We are under "supervision", so to speak, so for the benfit of teaching correct methods (and also corrective measures) such a forum with mentors is a great opportunity to show how this or that is done, or not done, discuss etc. you know, all the reasons for the forums. AND keep up the interest/drive for a project as there is a certain "comittment" in this..

Can't give in now.. the trick is to take one thing at a time, not get swamped by the whole project, the effort that is needed, time it will take etc., though still keeping an overview. Scraping along "in solitude" is rather relaxing on the mind at least (though laborous), I can listen to the radio and take things forward in a careful/planned manner (I am an engineer/detail oriented.. and not a youngster, so put these together, well.. shan't say what the wife says, won't risk to be edited.. ha..ha..)

Mind you, had I done this for the money (lets just assume I was good enough), I think I would need a totally different approach. Then I would probably be past the learning curve, and had to focus on functionality/quality to a certain price and the all-important delivery time. As an amateur, I have that luxury of overlooking these facts that "governs" the workdays for the scraping/machine repair pros (as for all the rest of us in our different jobs).


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## Richard King

Thanks for the kind words everyone.   Jan and his classmates made it very easy to teach.  He and a few others stayed 2 extra days extra, so they had 5 days of training.  Jan please tell the group a little more so your name and not mine to be at the top of the list...as you deserve the headline.   Your doing a fantastic job.  Maybe you should explain on here why you stepped scraped it, tip and blind scraped it.  Those who took the classes know what your talking about but the others might be a bit confused with those terms.    Your a computer expert and so are a couple of the other students, if it's not to hard to do add some sort of of internet drawing please.  It might be easier to explain.  Jan I understood when you used you hands to explain tip scraping, but it would be unclear to people who haven't taken the class.   I haven't commented much lately as my uncle who was ill for so long finally got some peace and I am a bit preoccupied now.  

Thanks Jan and I am very proud of you and I also feel the GA class was one of the great ones in my memory.  The PA class looks like it will be a good one too.  

Rich


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## jshaugjord

View attachment 62515

	

		
			
		

		
	
To answer Rich's call for a description of my attempts on step scraping, pls .see the attachment


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## jshaugjord

I had filled up my quota on pics so I chose to make videos out of the "collection". I also added more material. Hopefully they can be useful for others, especially if they are doing the same milling machine. I also have many more other pictures/videos, details shots which are a must when re-assembly times comes around (contact me if needed). For a "story on the restoration up until I swopped to videos, see here:

1) Schaublin SV52 milling machine, at the dealer, then in garage at home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ-N8lh6RdU

2) Schaublin SV52 milling machine, table and column way tests before dis-assembly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Uv6HaDOGU&feature=youtu.be

3) Schaublin SV52 milling machine, functions and defects
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8xcyqJRCPg

4) Schaublin SV52 milling machine gearbox internals and mechanism in action, some wear/damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcUPfYsBJDM&feature=youtu.be

5) Schaublin SV52 milling machine, saddle and table dis-assembly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF3dwqJzuDI

6) Schaublin SV52 milling machine rear side, motor clutch and gears, fuse box and wiring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK1SvGtPJO0

7) Schaublin SV52 milling machine, parting and moving, from garage to workshop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqVAjYj2V6s&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

Tip & step scraping instructions as asked of by Richard (also related to Ola's camelback thread)


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## xalky

Excellent write-up. I'll be following this thread as you rebuild and reassemble your machine. This will be an excellent machine once it is all put back together. )


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## jshaugjord

xalky said:


> Excellent write-up. I'll be following this thread as you rebuild and reassemble your machine. This will be an excellent machine once it is all put back together. )[/QUOTE
> 
> Thank you. I am in process of editing the remaining videos to catch up on documenting to my current status.
> 
> Yes, the Schaublin machines were/are really high-class tools, and were made to spec, not price.
> Mine is of course no longer according to factory condition in any respect, but is a really good excersize, and will be as good as I can get it. A bit complicated, I'd say, and of course on the heavy/big side for a small hobby shop..


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## jshaugjord

My big YouTube uploads from my home network/service provider is slow..


 2) Schaublin SV52 milling machine, table and column way tests before dis-assembly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqGCpokXk9o&feature=youtu.be

This one (new link) is still uplaoding .. +2 hours to go


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## jshaugjord

Concluding the work on the column ways:

Inner guideways
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELMdbLwoUoQ

Note: at 02:48 in the video
The straightedge markup was not exactly like this, I had "fingered" with it first..

This type of straightedge (solid, "railroad track" profiled) is also different from the usual scraped ones in that it is ground..and therefore smooth, and the only blue color that "sticks" is the Canode. Not Dykem nor Skavin (a Swedish bought special.. this is OK on the others, but a little more faint colored than Canode, so I prefer the latter)

My take on using gloves to prevent heat from the hands possibly distorting the straightedge is justa trial effort.. I could honestly not see a difference during my tests, but one of you pros could maybe prove me wrong here. 

Note: at 10:25 in the video
Need to test that you work at 90 degrees. Some more scraping was needed.

Note: at 11:50 in the video
Within 1/100 mm (not 1/1000 as spoken), which is about 4/1000"

Rear ways, left side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJGFA8vIwpQ
It is important to be conscious about scraping straight down (in this case), so to maintain the parallelism to the front flats along the width of this way surface. I used both a micrometer and an indicator and more..) to get validate my measurements.
The wear pattern is as expected, and the hold down plates that ride onto the rear ways are probably more worn. 

Note: at 05:45 in the video
Using the technique (or trying to) examplified by Herr Müller (Yes. Please see his excellent videos on scraping! Absolutely mandantory watching..) to make a groove in the 90 degree transition. The hold down plates doesn't go that far down, but anyway..

Use of a mirror was really helpful to get a good view!

Rear ways, right side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOm5iZt_mJA
I did make, and used, some handles to my other small straightedge whereas for this it may be bigger problem

Note: at 02:00 in the video
Thought first I could do the rear ways horizontal. This proved very ackward, even if I could somehow get the casting up to a comfortable height, the weigh tdistribution onto the ways would not have been an OK procedure to follow

Please note that it is preferrable to always use a straightedge longer than the area to be tested. In my case, I had to break it up. This means you have to be careful! First establish an area that is "true", then "move" from this at intervals.


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## jshaugjord

Moving onto the knee:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj4N-LjhL-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNRdes8d5XM&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

New link for 2nd knee scraping video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuGHHIAbS7g&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

just for the sake of being correct, but you already know of course:

1/100mm = 4/10.000 (not 4/1.000 as I wrote when I referred to mesurements made)
according to my mentor Ricahrd (King) the industry standard is 5/10.000 pr. foot, so this is what I am shooting for


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## jshaugjord

Concluding the knee rear side scraping (if all goes well..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzJuZzE_FGw&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

The unavoidable repainting, column and knee so far done
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2n2nzTOPrE&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

Moving along.. knee horizontal ways measurements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK97uAm2NME&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

Then scraping the undersides of the horizontal ways
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsh7O3tjA2Y


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## jshaugjord

Knee fitted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtwZdXnsGg4&feature=youtu.be

First job at hand is to measure how much to mill of the hold downs, then scrape, test fit again, scrape etc.
Then focus on the top and side guideways of the knee..


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## Ray C

Really nice work!

-Way too much snow...


Ray


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## jshaugjord

Thanks!

Re. winter: I know, but it still keeps coming.. did an hour of labour this morning and it looking out the vindow here at work it seems llike another one is needed to get in the driveway again from work..

Summer is nice though!



Ray C said:


> Really nice work!
> 
> -Way too much snow...
> 
> 
> Ray


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## slektning

This is very impressive work! I wish I had half your skills. Every time you ad a video i bring out the popcorn! you should make a complete video with pictures, comments and videos starting with the picture where i tricked you into buying this behemoth :whiteflag:


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## jshaugjord

A little hastily made, but I was impatient and couldn't resist the temptation of doing some measurements on the knee up/down the column. Went OK I think.. less than 1/100mm deviation on +30cm travel (less than half a thou on 1 foot) as far as I could see. The hold-down blocks are not yet modified, so the gap, apprx. 6-8 thou on the left side makes the knee rock a bit. This will be OK when I have milled, scraped and fitted them permanently
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZODjlL_ieU&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

I realized I had to clean up inside the column and dig into the motor(s). Now it has been done, and the motors are reassembled and tested in place. The "trigger" to get going with the motors now was the need to get the feed working so I could move the knee up and down without hand cranking. Then one thing led to the other..

I decided to clean and install the bigger ball bearings again. To me they seemed OK, and in case I will have to replace, I now know how to. For example, it turned out to be easier to remove, diss-assemble, re-assemble and install the large spindle motor than first anticipated,  so if/when need arises, I will have no fears..

I also decided not to paint the motors now, but I may have 2nd thoughts later because I saw the frame etc. for the main motor was in dire need really. Well, that should be an easy one now if I get the lust for it..

A good external clean was followed by taking all parts to my daytime workplace, well.. not quite. I am normally just riding a chair (office rat..), but we have fully equipped prototype workshop and muuuch better space and equipment than I have, so I got the clean-up of items done there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaLwSXDt9Sw

Coolant pump motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f8HkqGdVVk

Main motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfWVVjtyk9I&feature=youtu.be

Feed motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5StLipBuYM


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## jshaugjord

Painted the spindle and feed motors. Also shows the "interior" of the column:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkOWGLixtVY&feature=youtu.be


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## jshaugjord

More action..

A relief to see the milling machine spindle running
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXSdZHOqNWk&feature=youtu.be

Then again, a setback.. though I really anticipated something like this to happen. Not the worst, and another learning experience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIlF0-LFljY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWixK93ynZw


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