# War Time South Bend Lathe



## Brain Coral

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

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## Ulma Doctor

Hi Brian,
by the S/N your lathe was made in 1943 
http://www.wswells.com/serial_number.html


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## David VanNorman

Great buy you did good.Good luck with it.


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## Brain Coral

Hi Mike,

Thanks... that lines up with my thoughts about the U.S. anchor. I'll have to see if I can find out more about it.

Brian


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## Ulma Doctor

i don't have a lot of info as far as the symbols embossed in the SB's, but the anchor on your lathe is definitely a US Navy mark


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## Brain Coral

" Great buy you did good.Good luck with it."

Well, time will tell if it was a good buy or not. I paid $600.00 for it, and while we were talking, we got on the subject of vehicle repairs... he's a mechanic and works on old souped up cars.... and I mentioned that I was going to replace my rear discs/drum combo on an F150. While I was busy strapping the lathe down, I see him put two brand new discs, brake shoes for the emergency brake and a spring kit in the back of my truck. What a good guy.... he said that he bought them for his F150 but now he drives a Chev and would never use them. He wouldn't take a dime for them, so, I really only paid about $400.00 ,or less, for the lathe.

Brian


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## Steve Shannon

Brain Coral said:


> " Great buy you did good.Good luck with it."
> 
> Well, time will tell if it was a good buy or not. I paid $600.00 for it, and while we were talking, we got on the subject of vehicle repairs... he's a mechanic and works on old souped up cars.... and I mentioned that I was going to replace my rear discs/drum combo on an F150. While I was busy strapping the lathe down, I see him put two brand new discs, brake shoes for the emergency brake and a spring kit in the back of my truck. What a good guy.... he said that he bought them for his F150 but now he drives a Chev and would never use them. He wouldn't take a dime for them, so, I really only paid about $400.00 ,or less, for the lathe.
> 
> Brian


Sounds like karma.


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## tq60

Looks like a 14.5.

Should have a 2 hp 3 phase motor.

Get a vfd such as an Allen bradley 1300 series and you can have plenty of torque at low speed and plenty of higher speed with seldom changing belt position.

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## Andre

A Navy South Bend, now that's cool. I have a WW pattern Derbyshire cross slide for a watchmakers lathe, also from the Navy. Most of its plating was corroded away, so I wonder if it was in service on a ship for instrument repairs?

I wonder if you could find extra info on it from the Navy?

You might me missing the double nuts on the back of your cross slide leadscrew, make sure you have them


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## Brain Coral

Yesterday afternoon, I took a little bit of time to look things over in the shop. If you look closely at the compound in picture #6 and #8 from the beginning of the thread, you'll notice that it looks odd and very flat topped. It is a cobbled up home made job that I knew about when I looked at the lathe. There was a spare compound that came with the lathe that appeared to be the right fit. Not so....

The home made compound appears to have the base of a South Bend compound, maybe from a larger machine, and was flame cut to fit. The circular dovetail is a beautiful fit and the bottom has scraping marks.

Here's some pics of both compounds...










So that's a bummer.... if I had known more about how a South Bend compound looked like underneath, I would have been able to tell at a glance that I really didn't have a South Bend compound. The home made adaptation is rather well done and functions, albeit, with a little excessive backlash, but I wanted to really clean this old girl up. It would be a black eye with that compound. The chances of finding a replacement for this size of lathe will be very low, indeed, for this particular size of lathe.

It turns out that this lathe is known as a 14 1/2" x 36" model.

Brian

It just occurred to me that I should see if the top slide of the spare compound fits the dovetail of the base plate. If so, I could clean up the cut on the base and at least have something that looks better.


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## Brain Coral

"Looks like a 14.5.

Should have a 2 hp 3 phase motor.

Get a vfd such as an Allen bradley 1300 series and you can have plenty of torque at low speed and plenty of higher speed with seldom changing belt position."

The motor that is in the lathe is certainly not original. It's a single phase 220v motor, and I suspect that it is  3450 rpm, which is too fast for this lathe. I'm all set up with a couple of RPCs and don't mind the odd belt changes. I'll have to look in my stash of 3 phase motors and see if I have one that will fit.

Brian


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## Glenn Brooks

Re: compound.  If you have a mill, just lightly clean up the flame cutting marks and even round the top and edges if you have the time.  Who knows what history you might have there?   maybe some guy made that top piece during the battle of Leyte Gulf and didn't have time to pretty it up!


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## 4GSR

A shame you're halfway across the globe from me.  I have a 2 HP 1 PH motor that I recently pulled from my 15" Sheldon to replace with a 3 HP 3 PH motor I would let you have cheap.


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## Brain Coral

Well, I'm finally back with a bit more information. It is a 16" x 36" toolroom lathe, ordered February 27, 1942 and delivered on November 5, 1943,  by the U.S. Navy.

Here's a pic of the serial # card...




I have a line on some of the missing parts and will be picking them up soon. I haven't done much to the lathe, other than some preliminary cleaning and painting, as I'm also waiting on the re-build book and felts to arrive.

Here's a little progress...








The outside colour will be a grey of some sort... 


I also found a replacement motor in my stash. It's a German made motor, but what I think that I have is a 2 HP 3-phase motor, drawing 9 amps, 220 v. , 1735 RPM...




Correct me if I am wrong....

Brian


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## wildo

How were you able to locate that serial number card?? That is VERY cool info! I wonder if I could locate one for my SB lathe.


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## Brain Coral

Hello Wildo 

Grizzly now owns the South Bend name and is who I contacted to get the serial # card.

Here's a link...

http://www.grizzly.com/brands/south-bend-lathe/serialcard

Brian


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## wildo

Wow- awesome. And now I spend another $25 on this lathe... hahaha! Thank you sir!


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## David VanNorman

Darn nice project wish you the best. It most likely has not been beat up to much. Good luck.


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## FOMOGO

Nice machine. I might be inclined to to keep the compound as is aside from tightening things up some. You would have the only one like it on the block, or perhaps the planet. If the tag says 2.2 kw, that would make it just under 3hp. Cheers, Mike


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## Brain Coral

FOMOGO said:


> Nice machine. I might be inclined to to keep the compound as is aside from tightening things up some. You would have the only one like it on the block, or perhaps the planet. If the tag says 2.2 kw, that would make it just under 3hp. Cheers, Mike



Hello Mike 

Thanks...    I do have a compound coming my way, along with a few other parts that I need from a fellow in Maine. That's good to know about the HP of the German motor. I hooked the motor up to power last night and it spun right up with the bearings nice and smooth and quiet. I'll reinstall the cone pulley and motor mount tonight, and then will have to drill and tap new holes for the motor. Once the motor is installed, I'll be able to get the pedestal upright and begin the clean up and painting of the main components.

Brian


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## ogberi

Original compound or not, if it fits and works and you can tighten it up, use the heck out of it.. Original, no. Usable, YES!e it was an 'upgrade' on the sly.


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## Brain Coral

Well, I am finally back with a bit more done on the lathe. The parts came in from Maine with no damage and they will help immensely as I go along.







I was able to get the base completed, after making an adapter plate for the motor, and then making the v-belt adjusting mechanism from scratch, as the original was missing. I also had to press out the crankshaft from the crank bushing for the cone belt tension arm, as it was frozen solid. After pressing it out, I polished it in the lathe and put it back together with good results.

Then I reassembled the base, bed, legs and chip pan...







There is just a hint left of the original scraping on the ways....










I am thinking that this lathe sat out in the elements for quite some time, as everything I go to take apart is rusted together, and the ways are slightly pitted in places. Just trying to take the tail stock apart was a bear, with the side adjusting bolts frozen in place. It took nearly a week of heat and penetrating oil to finally take the two halves apart.

I decided to make two new adjustment bolts, as the old ones were very rusty and mashed up.







When I checked the pitch on the originals, I found that they were 5/8" x 12 tpi. I didn't have any all thread that size ( Isn't this an odd thread pitch for 5/8" ? ), so I decided to thread my own from some 3/4" ground rod. I didn't have anything to check the thread size as I went along, and there was no way to try the thread in the tail stock until I was done.

I haven't done much threading before, so I looked up the thread depth value in my Machinery's Handbook and used thread wires and a micrometer to get to the thread depth. Then I parted the two pieces, turned down one end each, and slotted them. After running a 12 tpi tap through the tail stock, I tried the bolts.... I was amazed that they fit perfectly, with no slop, but not tight. I guess that I got lucky 

I found these .009" brass shims between the halves of the tail stock... 




I now have the tailstock back together and on the lathe, with everything working nice and smooth.

I will tackle the headstock next.

Brian


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## Brain Coral

Here's a couple of pics of the tailstock,  back on the lathe and working nice and smoothly...







Here's the bare headstock, painted and back on the lathe...










At both the front and rear spindle bearings, the springed felt oilers were completely rotted away, with only pieces of broken spring present. The rear bearing looks pretty good...




The front bearing has some substantial scoring, but I will reassemble the headstock as is and see how the bearings run...




I am now, struggling with getting the cone pulley off of the spindle. It is frozen onto the spindle and does not spin on the spindle. Heat and penetrating oil will ensue....

Brian


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## Kroll

This is an awesome project,a lathe with history and a whole lot of character and a good author to bring it back to life.


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## Brain Coral

Kroll said:


> This is an awesome project,a lathe with history and a whole lot of character and a good author to bring it back to life.



Hello Krol 

Thanks..... it certainly is not on the order of what you are achieving with your South Bend.  Your paint job looks fantastic !!!

Brian


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## Ulma Doctor

looking great Brian!


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## olcopper

I couldn't tell from the pics, but one of the missing tags may have said "War Finish", this was a term for a lathe that was operable in all respects, but not a finely finished machine, we needed it for the war effort, no telling how much this contributed to winning the war---Just guessing the flame cutting may have been a way to speed up construction times.
Regardless, it is a fine machine, and your restoration work is beautiful.
olcopper
On edit: The hole on top of the tailstock opposite the lock down bolt is for a "dauber" and there are plans for building one on line----you may know, but, let's see if anyone else knows what was used in the old days as lubricant.
oc


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## Brain Coral

Hello OC,

Thank you for your kind words... 

The flame cut compound is clearly a home built one, although fairly well executed. I have the replacement, waiting in the wings. In the mid 70's that particular lubricant, applied with the dauber, was still used in high school... 

Here's a photo of a NOS chart that I got in the mail just the other day from a fellow from the U.S.A.




Here's a pic of me pressing on a new back gear from a fellow in Maine. Mine had a tooth missing....



Oops.... that's not the pic....




There we go...


Brian


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## hrolen

olcopper said:


> I couldn't tell from the pics, but one of the missing tags may have said "War Finish", this was a term for a lathe that was operable in all respects, but not a finely finished machine, we needed it for the war effort, no telling how much this contributed to winning the war---Just guessing the flame cutting may have been a way to speed up construction times.
> Regardless, it is a fine machine, and your restoration work is beautiful.
> olcopper
> On edit: The hole on top of the tailstock opposite the lock down bolt is for a "dauber" and there are plans for building one on line----you may know, but, let's see if anyone else knows what was used in the old days as lubricant.
> oc



I believe it was white lead? 




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## hrolen

Your rebuild of that USN warhorse is coming along great!! Keep up the good work!


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## Brain Coral

Hi HR,

Thank you for your encouragement...   Yes, you are correct about the white lead. It's a wonder that I survived childhood....   I'm pretty sure that we learned on South Bend 10" lathes back then.

I got a little more accomplished, yesterday. I managed to get both the back gear and tumbler/reverse assemblies back on the lathe... all cleaned, painted, new felting, etc.  ...










Merry Christmas to all of you... 

Brian


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## Firestopper

I applaud your dedication to bring her back to life. Looking very nice so far.
Merry Christmas to you as well.


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## Brain Coral

Hello Firestopper 

Thanks... 

I had some additional success today. The cone pulley was completely frozen onto the spindle, and would not spin on it, whatsoever. So, after a couple of weeks of applying penetrating oil on it, I finally decided to try and press both the bull gear and cone pulley off of the spindle at the same time, as there was no other way.

I started slowly with 5 tons of pressure and left it there for a minute or so, then onto 10 tons, then 12 tons, and finally, at 15 tons of pressure, both the bull gear and cone pulley let loose with a loud "snap" !!







I then pressed out the spindle with relative ease after that. I was afraid that I would break something, but all went well.







The bull gear will go into the electrolysis tank and the other parts will get cleaned, oiled and polished as needed.




The bronze bushings look surprisingly good...







I am very happy that I finally got the cone pulley off the spindle. Now, I am certain that I can get it back to working order again.

Cheers... 

Brian


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## Brain Coral

Well, the bull gear is out of the "brine" , cleaned and first coat of paint. All of the associated parts are cleaned and oiled. Now, the cone pulley is in the electrolysis bath. I am finding, that if the part being immersed in the "brine" has a lot of residual penetrating oil or grease, it doesn't work nearly as well. The oil seems to shield the process to some degree. I will have to look at my collection of plastic bins to find one the right size for the spindle. If all goes well, I might have the spindle/cone pulley assembly back together and installed by the weekend.

Brian


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## tq60

Make a mix with lye as it will attack anything organic.

Oil is organic...

Remember that when talking to "those folks" who think everything needs to be organic to be good for you.

So is high fiber natural drought friendly asbestos. ..

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## Brain Coral

Hello all, and a Happy New Year to you... 

I have some further progress to report. After taking the cone pulley out of the electrolysis tank and cleaning it up, I noticed that the bronze bushing at the gear end is actually the gear and bushing all in one. Yes, the gear is bronze, and integral to the bushing. It must be a press fit into the cast iron bore and then it is pinned to the pulley. The other bore beside the bull gear is in the cast iron of the cone pulley. No bronze bushing there.

Here's a few pics after cleanup...










I then oiled the bores and spindle to see if it would go back on. It went into the cast iron bore with a very nice sliding and spinning fit, but would just barely begin to go into the bronze bushing and then suddenly stop and jam. I then tried to slide the spindle into the bronze gear end, and it would slide in and spin nicely, but only to a depth of about one inch. This is, coincidentally, the depth of the gear. Puzzled, I then decided to get out some measuring tools and see what was going on.

The spindle bearing surfaces were consistent to withing 2 tenths at all sides to 2.4982. The cast iron bore was consistent throughout at 2.5001. The bronze bushing bore was right at 2.5001 within the gear,  but then became smaller to 2.4957 and then at the bottom, it was 2.4949. So it was about .005" too small. No wonder it took 15 tons of pressure to pop the cone pulley off the spindle.

This lathe has all of the signs of having spent some time outdoors in the weather, so I believe that there must have been water, laying inside the cone pulley in the reservoir between the bores. This then resulted in rust forming between the bronze bushing and the cast iron bore, causing the bronze bore to contract, and then becoming stuck to the spindle.

So, last evening, I decided to see if I could mount the cone pulley in my Colchester lathe and rebore the bushing.

Here's what I came up with ...














I took my time and ended up getting the bronze bore right on size...










Before removing the cone pulley from the setup, I took the spindle to the work and did a trial fit. It was spot on. Here's the cone pulley back on the spindle with a lovely feel to the spinning fit.




Shortly, I will head down to the shop to take the cone pulley off the spindle and press the bull gear on. Then I'll put the cone pulley back on and continue building the spindle and putting it back into the headstock.

Brian


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## Kroll

Dang,15tons worth of psi I would grit my teeth and turn my head.But what a recovery you made,nice fit and you did not have to fight it.You will have an awesome lathe once your done,definitely a candidate for Nels post "Show Us Your South Bend Lathe"


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## Brain Coral

Hi Carrol,

Thank you for your kind words.  You certainly can relate to the problems that arise when we take on the job of rescuing old machinery.

I managed to spend most of yesterday afternoon in the shop, and made some headway. To prepare for the installation of the spindle, I made and installed one of the missing oil return wires for the rear bearing, and then installed two new bearing wicks, holding them down with wires through the overflow holes.

I then assembled the bull gear locking pin onto the bull gear and proceeded to press the bull gear onto the spindle.







Then it was a simple matter of sliding the cone pulley back onto the spindle...




Next was placing the completed spindle into the head stock bearings and checking for mesh with the back gears...







The mesh was not good at all. Only the tips of the teeth were engaging each other. I had noticed that the bushing at the large gear end of the back gears was all mangled looking on the outside surface, so I pulled the setscrew out and peered into the hole to see if there was a factory dimple showing. On the 16" lathes, gear mesh is set at the factory with the pointed setscrew engaging the factory dimple. Nope... no dimple showing. So, I decided to remove the bushing, in order to see the dimple to line it up and re-install it. It was stuck hard and wouldn't move very much, so I cobbled together this little press to remove the bushing.




By the looks of the bushing, someone had a pipe wrench of vise grips on it at some point... 




So, I placed the bushing between centers and turned down the raised areas and re-installed it. Now the back gears mesh perfectly, the bull gear pin works very well, and the cone pulley turns easily. I placed the bearing caps on just to keep any dirt from getting into the bearings. They need another coat of paint.







It looks like I have today to play in the shop. I think that the next items I will tackle are the apron and saddle.

Cheers.... 

Brian


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## Guv

Thank you for the well documented rebuild, looking forward to the next episode!


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## Silverbullet

Well done , looking like you'll have a very nice lathe , your doing a great job . You need to be proud of the rebuild. . Shoot I'm happy when I just cleaned and it works for me. I'm to screwed up now to do complete tear downs and rebuilds. But I like to see them done up nice. Look forward to seeing her do some cutting.


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## Brain Coral

Thanks for your encouragement, fellas... 

I  managed to get most of the apron apart with little effort, including the dreaded taper pins, but now I am stuck on one part, the right hand worm collar. It took lots of heat and penetrating oil to get the left one off, but now that I have lost the leverage of having both collars to work against each other, I am fighting to get the right one off.




I continue to work on it daily, with heat and penetrating oil. We shall see. In the meantime, I am working on painting and cleaning other parts ahead of time. Even the simplest of parts have their inherent problems, due to the "outdoor" neglect that this lathe has seen, like the cone pulley cover. One of the adjusting screws had been hack sawed off and welded to the nut, and the other one looked like it came from the bottom of the ocean, and would not budge out of the nut, so I ended up making two new ones.







I just used some "allthread" that I had and turned and faced a couple of nuts to thin them  to resemble the originals. They aren't as wide as the originals, but the location of these is all but hidden from view. Now I can set the cone pulley cover side to side for a nice and even gap to the other guards. Not a big job, but it just goes to show you just how very difficult this lathe is to work on. Next, I have to make a cone pulley cover knob, where mine was just an old bolt.

Thanks for looking in... 

Brian


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## Kroll

Brian the way you present your restoration projects is fantastic as other have said I just want to echo that.Your pics and description is/will serve as a learning tool for future DIY'ers who want to do a preservation project on a lathe.Well done sir,thanks for posting


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## Brain Coral

Thanks, Caroll 

You are too kind...

I am still at the same point with the apron, so I decided to have a change of scenery and did some cleaning and painting of other parts. Also, the cone pulley cover had the knob missing and there was an old bolt in it's place. So, I searched around and finally got some information as to what it should look like. It is more of a round knob at the end of a post.

So, I put a piece of suitable stock in my collet chuck, turned down the post, then the threaded section, and used a die to form the threads.




I then parted it off to length, and used the same stock to make a fixture to hold the part, by facing, center drilling, drilling and tapping. Then I cut out a half circle, 7/8" to use as a guide, and started to whittle it away until I thought that it was close.







I then filed, sanded, polished it, and installed it onto the cone pulley cover.







I didn't get the knob as round as I had hoped, but it is much better than the old bolt, and feels good on the fingers.

Brian


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## Technical Ted

I like that better than a round knob! LoL Looks great on your machine too! 

Good job,
Ted


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## Brain Coral

Thanks, Ted 

Well, I finally managed to get the second worm collar off and the worm and bearing out of the apron. It was a struggle... I then pressed out the clutch shaft from the worm gear...




Now, I finally have the bare casting to clean and paint...




Another hurdle overcome and some progress. The next hurdle will be the quick change gear box.

Brian


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## ewkearns

Awesome lathe! 1942 serial numbers were from 127793 to 137909....


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## Brain Coral

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Brain Coral

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Kroll

That is neat,better than factory but still looks original.Nice job---kroll


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## aametalmaster

I also have a USN lathe. Mine was used by GE in Ft. Wayne In. during the war. 1941 Heavy 10L...Bob


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## Kroll

Nice lathe Bob,hope your plan will be like Brian's start/finish so please post so we can follow along.I did a lathe like that couple yrs ago and that cabinet is a project in itself.


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## Brain Coral

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Brain Coral

aametalmaster said:


> I also have a USN lathe. Mine was used by GE in Ft. Wayne In. during the war. 1941 Heavy 10L...Bob



Hello Bob 

That's neat to see another "war" lathe. It's interesting to note that your stamp is different than mine, in relation to the US Navy. Mine is a '43 model and simply has the US with the anchor.

Brian


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## Brain Coral

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Brain Coral

A 6" vise is overkill for a RF45 style mill. A 4" is more appropiate for that size mill & IMO 5" max. I have a 5" GMT vise on my PM45 & it's slightly too big. Not enough Y axis travel to make use of the 5" full capacity. Better to save your money rather than getting something too big & most importantly the weight. I take my vise of the table quite often, a 6" is still light enough for me to be carried by hand but I'm glad I have a 5". I also have a 4" vise as well. I prefer the 5" though.

But those GMT 6" Premium vises are pretty nice. I'd love to have one but don't need one on my current mill. But if you plan on upgrading to a full size knee mill in the future than the 6" will be perfect.


Here's what the 5" looks like on my mill.




I couldn't even complete this cut without my bellows & DRO scale getting in the way. Not enough Y travel & the 5" vise is not even maxed out.




Here's what a 6" vise looks like on another PM45 (gt40's)
View attachment 253544


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## Brain Coral

A 6" vise is overkill for a RF45 style mill. A 4" is more appropiate for that size mill & IMO 5" max. I have a 5" GMT vise on my PM45 & it's slightly too big. Not enough Y axis travel to make use of the 5" full capacity. Better to save your money rather than getting something too big & most importantly the weight. I take my vise of the table quite often, a 6" is still light enough for me to be carried by hand but I'm glad I have a 5". I also have a 4" vise as well. I prefer the 5" though.

But those GMT 6" Premium vises are pretty nice. I'd love to have one but don't need one on my current mill. But if you plan on upgrading to a full size knee mill in the future than the 6" will be perfect.


Here's what the 5" looks like on my mill.




I couldn't even complete this cut without my bellows & DRO scale getting in the way. Not enough Y travel & the 5" vise is not even maxed out.




Here's what a 6" vise looks like on another PM45 (gt40's)
View attachment 253544


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## LucknowKen

Nice work, looking good. 
Great write up as well.
lk


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## brino

wow, thanks for all the pictures!
it is appreciated.
-brino


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## Kroll

Just got in from work,put in 1/2 day.Wife made me a ham sandwich so I grab my laptop went straight to Brians post.Who would have ever though that reading about 5/16 or 3/8 bolt would be so fantastic but it is.That is perfect,notice the slight dome head to match.This is one of those threads that new owners of SB lathe will go to for learning and lot of inspiration.


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## Brain Coral

A 6" vise is overkill for a RF45 style mill. A 4" is more appropiate for that size mill & IMO 5" max. I have a 5" GMT vise on my PM45 & it's slightly too big. Not enough Y axis travel to make use of the 5" full capacity. Better to save your money rather than getting something too big & most importantly the weight. I take my vise of the table quite often, a 6" is still light enough for me to be carried by hand but I'm glad I have a 5". I also have a 4" vise as well. I prefer the 5" though.

But those GMT 6" Premium vises are pretty nice. I'd love to have one but don't need one on my current mill. But if you plan on upgrading to a full size knee mill in the future than the 6" will be perfect.


Here's what the 5" looks like on my mill.




I couldn't even complete this cut without my bellows & DRO scale getting in the way. Not enough Y travel & the 5" vise is not even maxed out.




Here's what a 6" vise looks like on another PM45 (gt40's)
View attachment 253544


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## jeepguy88

Your ALMOST THERE! Im looking forward to seeing this lathe in action!


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