# Machinist "buttons"



## 34_40 (Jul 22, 2015)

I've seen something called "machinist buttons" on ebay and wonder what they are used for..  Seems they come as a set of 4?

Would anyone know of their use?  Or maybe have a picture as an example?


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## ch2co (Jul 22, 2015)

Try this video to see how they work.  I've never seen them myself until you asked, so thank you, I'm now happier.





Chuck the grumpy old guy


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## Bill Gruby (Jul 22, 2015)

That video has been site disabled. It can only be viewed on You Tube.

Machinist Buttons are used in center finding and layout worn. I will see if I can find something on them for you. Their official name is "Tool Makers Buttons"

"Billy G"


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 22, 2015)

I've had 2 sets of Starrett buttons in my box for 25+ years and have never used them, they were my Grandfathers so I keep them.


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## uncle harry (Jul 23, 2015)

Bill Gruby said:


> That video has been site disabled. It can only be viewed on You Tube.
> 
> Machinist Buttons are used in center finding and layout worn. I will see if I can find something on them for you. Their official name is "Tool Makers Buttons"
> 
> "Billy G"



I was able to view this video by clicking on the YOU TUBE "button" on the lower right of the frame.  The video is very well done.


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## Firestopper (Jul 23, 2015)

I thought the video was done very well too. What I don't understand is why the button needs to be adjustable if your layout is spot on.
A one piece button should work if your layout is good..right? 
I'm still learning a lot in the machining realm, despite only having 4 years of HS machining some some 35+ years ago. I have been milling and turning  on my own since 2001. 
Any explanation would be appreciated.

Paco


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## ronzo (Jul 23, 2015)

I have used them about 60 years ago. They were designed by the devil. 
if you want to drive yourself nuts try locating a 4 hole pattern with a +/- .0002 or .0005 location. They are meant to be used by first locating tapped hole for the button mounting screw by scribed lines and center punching. The holes in the buttons themselves are substantially larger than the crews to facilitate moving them to the proper location. You first locate the button in one axis say X and once that is achieved  you tackle the other direction.  After locating Y you go back and recheck X. Of course it has moved. So you redo it the whole thing all over again. Now do the same to the other 3 holes. Then locate each of the buttons on the axis of whatever machine you are going to bore them on.  It could be looked upon as a poor man's jig boring tecnique, a very very poor man.
Ron





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## uncle harry (Jul 23, 2015)

firestopper said:


> I thought the video was done very well too. What I don't understand is why the button needs to be adjustable if your layout is spot on.
> A one piece button should work if your layout is good..right?
> I'm still learning a lot in the machining realm, despite only having 4 years of HS machining some some 35+ years ago. I have been milling and turning  on my own since 2001.
> Any explanation would be appreciated.
> ...



Hi, I find that "spot on" has a range of tolerances. Layout when skillfully done is relatively accurate. Some locating requires more precise tolerances. That's where the gauge blocks, height gauge, dial indicator and angle plate come in.  Using the combination of these tools requires clearance in the tool button so it will move to contact the gauge block surfaces.


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## Firestopper (Jul 23, 2015)

Thanks uncle h, I have so much to learn. It's seems the block the video showed would have been rotated and scribed on all four sides using the hight gauge indicating true center. Then a precise center pin (I don't know all the terminology) threaded in to aid in idicating on the four jaw chuck. I try to machine to +/- .0005 but always room for perfection.
I really appreciate this site.


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## John Hasler (Jul 23, 2015)

firestopper said:


> Thanks uncle h, I have so much to learn. It's seems the block the video showed would have been rotated and scribed on all four sides using the hight gauge indicating true center. Then a precise center pin (I don't know all the terminology) threaded in to aid in idicating on the four jaw chuck. I try to machine to +/- .0005 but always room for perfection.
> I really appreciate this site.


Your method would add the error in locating the pin to that due to centering it.
If I wanted to bore the true center of such a block I'd use a DTI to center it in the 4-jaw directly. 

However, centering the hole may not be what is wanted.  The method shown places the hole a precise distance from each of two sides.


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## Firestopper (Jul 23, 2015)

Ok, I understand. It seem there is a better way than a floating button (PITA).


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## 34_40 (Jul 23, 2015)

WHEW!  I think I struck a nerve with that question!  I'll pop over to You tube and search for the correct name to see it in use.

Thanks to all for taking the time to reply.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Jul 23, 2015)

firestopper said:


> I try to machine to +/- .0005 but always room for perfection.


"Trying" and "succeeding" are completely different things with lathes and milling machines, everyone tries to hit the numbers. This is what cylindrical and surface grinders are made for.

Made 3 parts today, one feature was on the drawing as follows, counterbore .8749-.8746 diameter X .281  +.005 -.000 deep, .002 concentricity between the ID and the OD which is 1.000 +/- .005, after welding, 304 stainless material. This was not a customer drawing it was made by our own in-house engineer, I had to go into his office and kick him in the shins, one at a time (-:
How would you measure such a feature?


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## Brokenbuild (Jul 28, 2015)

Tom from Ox Tools shows buttons in use in his youtube video "Etching Press bearing housings part 2".  Search youtube for oxtoolco bearing housings and you'll find it. Perhaps this link will work but since I'm new to the forum, maybe not!


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## mainspring (Jul 28, 2015)

I have a couple sets of the buttons from Starrett. We used to use them in the old days before DROs
for precision layouts when boring, setting up plates for punching dies, and for precision faceplate work. 
Pick a closely layed out spot for "0-0" then go to your next location and D&T for the button screw. Set 
your distances with gauge blocks, minus one button diameter. Adjust second button. Continue to your
other locations. Recheck with blocks. I find it easiest to use two set of blocks. HOd one dimension while you 
set/ recheck the next. 
Eventually, mount the work and indicate in your button with a tenths indicator. Remove the button, and 
perform your boring operation.
I am not a huge fan of buttons, but we used them a lot on dies where the material was thin and the punch and
die had to fit line to line.


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## Bill C. (Jul 28, 2015)

firestopper said:


> I thought the video was done very well too. What I don't understand is why the button needs to be adjustable if your layout is spot on.
> A one piece button should work if your layout is good..right?
> I'm still learning a lot in the machining realm, despite only having 4 years of HS machining some some 35+ years ago. I have been milling and turning  on my own since 2001.
> Any explanation would be appreciated.
> ...



Now days most of us have better and cheaper layout equipment.  The holes are oversize in case of a miscalculation during setup.


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## 34_40 (Aug 1, 2015)

Thanks Again for all those who took time to reply!!   The oxtoolco video was most helpful. 
I do have a set of buttons and a shaper/planer gauge and now have a much better idea of how to use them both. 

So again, thanks to ALL for these replies!


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## Bill C. (Aug 1, 2015)

I know it may seem strange to layout, drill and tap a hole location then add a button to fine tune it's exact location. A lot of work but the layout person may not be the machinist who will do the work.  In my day we did a lot of layout using height gages and gage blocks using angle plates on granite surface blocks.  They may be old but in the right hands they can be just as precise as a DRO is today.  Thanks for asking and sharing.


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## DKD228 (Aug 4, 2015)

Bill C. said:


> Now days most of us have better and cheaper layout equipment.  The holes are oversize in case of a miscalculation during setup.





mainspring said:


> I have a couple sets of the buttons from Starrett. We used to use them in the old days before DROs
> for precision layouts when boring, setting up plates for punching dies, and for precision faceplate work.
> Pick a closely layed out spot for "0-0" then go to your next location and D&T for the button screw. Set
> your distances with gauge blocks, minus one button diameter. Adjust second button. Continue to your
> ...





Bill C. said:


> Now days most of us have better and cheaper layout equipment.  The holes are oversize in case of a miscalculation during setup.


HOLES ARE OVERSIZE FOR THE PURPOSE OF ADJUSTMENT TO REQUIRED DIMENSIONAL TOLERANCE, as intended by the manufacturer of the  buttons, not for simple
miscalculation in the layout.   Sole purpose and function of using the buttons relies on the ability to move and adjust the button to a location within given parameters. Here is a link for
 reference,  by Harold Hall on the topic;  http://www.homews.co.uk/page273.html


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## Bill C. (Aug 5, 2015)

DKD228 said:


> HOLES ARE OVERSIZE FOR THE PURPOSE OF ADJUSTMENT TO REQUIRED DIMENSIONAL TOLERANCE, as intended by the manufacturer of the  buttons, not for simple
> miscalculation in the layout.   Sole purpose and function of using the buttons relies on the ability to move and adjust the button to a location within given parameters. Here is a link for
> reference,  by Harold Hall on the topic;  http://www.homews.co.uk/page273.html




Thanks for the clarification.  I never used them, but worked with those who did. I appreciate the link too.  I didn't know there were ground washers so the button wouldn't move when tightening.   I always learn something new on here.


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