# Mach3turn problem notice



## jumps4 (Mar 6, 2013)

I'm really a novice at cnc lathe and have always felt a bit uncertain when using mach3 with my lathes and i may have found the reason. for years i have been searching for wizards and information to make the lathes work better but it seems like everything stopped in about 2010 on the mach3 artsoft forum where the lathe is concerned and i now may know why.
 there is a problem in mach3turn that cant be fixed and that is why mach4 is being written
this is a post from Brian Barker the author of mach3 about the problem and i have asked him what i should be looking for so i'm not chasing my own tail trying to find a fix for something that cant be fixed in mach3. i just sent the message and i'm waiting to see the reply from brian.
this is from the yahoo forum:


"____________ _________ _________ __
 From: Brian Barker brianb@machsupport. com>
To: mach1mach2cnc@ yahoogroups. com 
Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Re: NEW Wizard?

Yes... Mach4 and Turn. Back more then 2 years ago Hood asked me to fix 
some things in Turn and I worked on it for a few weeks and came to the 
conclusion that I couldn't do it how Mach3 was structured. So that 
started me to develop Mach4. I had no idea the amount of work that it 
was going to start.. the more I dug into it the more I knew we needed to 
start over from scratch. So here we are .. on the tail end of the 
project and we are making machines move and we are starting to work on 
the more specialized version of the software. So Turn is a major reason 
for this rewrite and it will see the most significant increase in 
quality of supported features.

Thanks
Brian "

this is a little depressing since i have been cncing my lathe and just purchased more new parts to fix problems i have been having. i hope the cost of going from mach3 to mach4 isnt too high, i though updates and bug fixes in mach3 were lifetime and free once you purchased a licence. mach4 sounds like a bug fix to me.
we will see when it is released how this is addressed.
steve


----------



## johnas (Mar 6, 2013)

What is the exact issue you are having?

People seem to use LinuxCNC for lathe-work without issues. One major difference is that, with LinuxCNC you can accurately determine rotational position of the spindle, while in Mach3, you are limited to one "tick" per revolution, and an averaging algorithm.  

Is that what you are seeing?

I'm not sure exactly how many "ticks" I'll be using with my upcoming CNC lathe, but I do have a Mesa 5i25 and 7i76 breakout board, which has the spindle encoder inputs, to better keep track of things.

We'll see - no personal experience with CNC lathes, yet.

John A. Stewart
http://cnc-for-model-engineers.blogspot.com


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 6, 2013)

like i said about being a novice in mind
I just never feel comfortable when i hit cycle start with the wizards i have or gcode. it will work if you play with them but never as intended
try using the od arc 4 wizard and your first attempt if not air cutting will plunge directly into the stock, the problem is not radius or diameter mode its odd and i know they are user written but there are no help files or instructions. normally you would zero z on the right end of the stock and touch off x to the material face measure the stock and enter the measurement into the x dro.and your zeroed in to start. to get that wizard to come close you measure the stock and enter twice the measurement as a starting point on the first pass it is too far away but not more than .100 i pause it measure the distance fron the tool to the material at the closest point and deduct that from the x starting point. not exactly scientific but i get my part
 when i convert dxf profiles to g-code i have to be really careful also 
i'd hate to purchase really good lathe cam software to find out i'm still having problems with mach3
 i did get threading to work pretty well but its not a hit cycle start and walk away type of trust i have with my mill and i seem to always be off on final diameter. the lathe is calibrated perfect i have checked it constantly
in the mill software if you wish to speed up or slow the feed rate you click the arrow and it speeds up or down a little, i tried that the  other day in lathe and nothing happened, i tried it again thinking i had missed the arrow and nothing. 5 minutes later my lathe went to a full speed cutting rate like a g0 rapid move and started trying to rip out the material as fast as the z axis would move. i was lucky i was still close to the lathe.
 also you cant pause and restart some times like you want to sharpen or change the tool, it may restart or it may loose where it was and just do anything. if that happens then you have to start over or edit your file removing what you have done so far and then hit cycle start. run from here does not always work right either. I have tried every version from 22 thru 66 and still dont trust what is happening to write a complete part into one operation and trust it to come out right. i purchased an oscilliscope to locate possible problems on the pins or tach signal, i have perfect square waves
 i know part of it may be me but i cant figure out what part and your not going to find much help on their site, just an old timer telling you to read the manual again or no reply at all. i give up on their forum nothing is in order and you waste time reading things that no long work or apply or are the last message without any reply or answer. try looking something up there
 i'll get to where i know it better but i'll never trust it like i do mill.
steve


----------



## Bloy (Mar 6, 2013)

...just a thought. It might be the computer that Mach3 is installed on. Some motherboards are flakey that way.

Maybe in a few weeks to a month I will be able to help you. I'm just cleaning the dust off now to do a thread on the yaskawa pendant.
Previously I have been doing extensive home remodeling and only walked by the machines noticing how dusty they were getting. 

This is the link to the pendant/control board that I will learn to integrate with Mach3
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=361

Several years ago I got one for $50 but had no way to connect it through Mach3 to my machine...proprietory or somethin' like that.
Anyway, Arturo of CNC4PC made a drop-in Pokeys board that can be configured. 
SOoo.... I'm brushing up on the nuances of Mach3 now.

I don't recall having problems with Mach3 to the extent you speak of. What problems I had were for the most part due to my own situation.
Do you have all your wiring shielded? I better take a good look at your CNC conversion thread I just noticed you have here.


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 6, 2013)

this has been going on for some time noticing things with 2 different cnc lathes and 3 different computers 
the author of mach3 said he cant fix it and is writing mach4 to solve problems with turn. his comments are in the first post in this thread
but i also know a lot less about turn than mill because the information is really not available like mill. most people build a mill and there are probably more plasma users than lathe also.
 i'm sure i'll get it to work well enough for my needs but its not like my mill build dead solid reliable. any more money i put into this before the software is fixed is just lipstick on a pig.
you can get a usb pendant that works pretty good for $23 for mach3
steve

edit: i looked at your pendant thats nice and i'd want to get it working myself if i had it   scratch my pendant suggestion   lol


----------



## Bloy (Mar 7, 2013)

jumps4 said:


> i know part of it may be me but i cant figure out what part and your not going to find much help on their site, just an old timer telling you to read the manual again or no reply at all. i give up on their forum nothing is in order and you waste time reading things that no long work or apply or are the last message without any reply or answer. steve



Steve...
This isn't very friendly. I'm at the Mach3 forum often ( http://www.machsupport.com/forum/ ) and feel that your assessment of the site is very unfair. ....just an "old timer"?? Not True. There are many who I know there that help out in many ways. Several years ago I helped out a lot myself, but began to attend to other things. I'm no expert and believe me there are many who far surpass my contributions, but Art was kind enough to include me in the credits that are listed in the Mach3 program for being there during the development of Mach2 and 3. 

Also, Art Fenerty is the author of Mach3 and Brian Barker bought the rights after Art retired(..er moved on).

It is well documented that Mach3 turn has a few issues because Art concentrated on mill as the demand for lathe functions was small in comparison to mill, but you can certainly use the Mach3Turn/lathe if you work around its caveats.

See this:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/139035  for Brian's comments and others from the above forum that have recommendations.

John Meissner


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 7, 2013)

ok it may be a little harsh, i have never said anything about art or brian and thanks for the correction on the author  i knew it was Art but Brian is working with it now. they have always been nice to people and "hood" as 1 example over at the forum is a really stand up person.
 but there are 20 pages of threads containing the term "read the manual" and i have been told the same at least 3 times. the manual is great for the people who already know cnc terms so sometimes you have to ask what something means.
 Brian replied to me today and explained that Art had never put much into the lathe section of the software and that CSS mode does not work and spindle sync mode has never worked the way it should and there is too much to really explain to me because its really complicated.
 i'm a member of the yahoo group you have sent me to and read everything typed there daily 
 my problem is i just spent a lot of money cncing my lathe to find out it may never work right with the software i bought to run it, and when mach4 comes out i get to purchase the fix to make it work. Mach3 is a great product but not many people read the forum posts before buying something and the manual does not say there are problems with turn you have to find this out yourself after purchasing it. trying to find posts in the forum that sound like the problem your having is hard to do if your not sure if the problem is you , mach3 or the way you have set it up. I have purchased 3 different styles of rpm pickups and a buffer for the signal, an oscilliscope to see the signal and i find out it has never really worked right? nothing was me my setup or my electronics its the software i bought that works so well for my mills that i built a lathe causing my problems.
 i'm a bit upset at all this but it wont stop me from buying mach4 I want what i build to work right. the fact this happens is not so upsetting look at windows it has never been right and they keep selling us new versions to fix that have their own problems and dont work right   lol
 it would have been nice to know this up front on page one of the manual though. I would have built the lathe anyway but i would not have bought all the other parts trying to fix something that cant be fixed. I spent 2 solid weeks, day and evenings chasing my own tail reading everything i could get my hands on. rewiring, changing boards, checking and rechecking settings trying to figure out how i could have no problems with mills and have helped many people build their own  but i cant get 2 axis to work the way i want it to work.
steve


----------



## Bloy (Mar 7, 2013)

So you had already bought the Mach3 software to run your mill(s). Now you wanted to expand and use your Mach3 software to run your lathe. Sounds reasonable until you find out that there are problems with Mach3turn.

There are a few others who experienced the same, but they were involved in the development. What they decided to do was to use linux for their lathe work, and Mach3 for mill. Linux is a good alternative for lathe, and it is free....just another learning curve to tackle though. 

I'm sorry you didn't catch on earlier to mach3turn's issues.

Incidently, the spindle will sync quite well for short thread lengths, but from what I have heard is that after a few inches of length for threads the timing gets muddled or something. I believe it's something like four inches or so. I've threaded several items without problems... one was the ballscrew end for bearing block mounting of my router after cutting it to length. I hope you can live with your limited use of Mach3turn until the super low cost of Mach4 comes out. There will be a discount(I believe) for those who already own Mach3.

edit...Actually I did the threading operation on the ballscrew end first then cut off the unwanted portion.

Here are some examples of threads I did while Mach3 was being developed:


----------



## Bloy (Mar 7, 2013)

Here is a possible alternative or addition to Mach3turn that you might find useful:
Mach "lazyturn":
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/board,73.0.html

The manual:
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,10091.new.html#new

Art did this after selling the Mach3. Rich wrote the manual.


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 7, 2013)

i thought my lathe was really nice until i tried to thread a new lh leadscrew for a friends lathe 7 inches long and it sent me into this quest to locate a problem i may not run into often. my lathe cuts nice threads on lengths less than 3" most of the time.
 in mill if you wish to slow or speed up the feed rate you press the up or down arrow and the speed changes, i tried that in lathe while cutting a arc and the button didnt do anything, i thought i missed it because the button didnt hi-lite when pressed and again nothing so i left it alone and went about doing other things. 5 minutes later  the lathe started feeding at full z axis speed and burried the cutter into the part so deep it stopped the spindle motor and was smoking the belt, and the stepper motors were  just screaming. i'm glad it was not close to the finish and did not destroy my part or bust my lathe. the chip that stopped the lathe was an 1/8" thick.
 i'll learn the work arounds and things not to do but this is all learn by mistakes.
I have umbutu and oh i hate new software....the learning curve
i'm going to buy mach4, one to support the product and i know it is being fixed. lathe problems in brians own words are what set him on the path to write mach4 and if it ever works as well as mill i'll be a really happy camper.
 i dont want to bash anyone and right now i have a few people copying my mill and lathe builds, asking me setup questions and wiring information. if i see something wrong i need to tell them what i have found and posting it is the only way.
steve


----------



## johnas (Mar 7, 2013)

Bloy said:


> Incidently, the spindle will sync quite well for short thread lengths, but from what I have heard is that after a few inches of length for threads the timing gets muddled or something. I believe it's something like four inches or so. I've threaded several items without problems... one was the ballscrew end for bearing block mounting of my router after cutting it to length. I hope you can live with your limited use of Mach3turn until the super low cost of Mach4 comes out.



Nice work, BTW.

My understanding is that Mach3 uses one sync pulse on the spindle, and an averaging algorithm to determine z movement speed. 

This is fine if your spindle speed is absolutely rock solid, but if it wavers slightly (say, when cutting metal) ;-) then the rotational accuracy/z position suffers.

For my LinuxCNC build, I'm following the usual way for LinuxCNC - an index pulse, and a number of sub-pulses (32? 64??) to actually give pretty good rotational accuracy.

Really, if you think about it, the averaging speed scheme can only result in inaccuracy, unless you have a rock-solid spindle drive. I don't know about you, but none of my lathes (4) are rock-solid; my 11x24 one is pretty good, but the clutch needs re-adjustment.

I'm not sure how many sub-pulses to give my lathe spindle - something to experiment with when I get it running.

I'm very happy with LinuxCNC and my mill hardware, I expect the same level of gratification with my lathe build - but time will tell...


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 7, 2013)

this is my pride and joy build
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/8187-rung-fu-clone-RF-45-ZX45-cnc-conversion
the lathe was fun but i never put into it what i have the zx45
 i have been so tempted to look into linuxcnc but i'm funny about not trying to get into too many different things all at the same time, it makes mush out of my tiny brain 
steve


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 7, 2013)

Bloy said:


> Here is a possible alternative or addition to Mach3turn that you might find useful:
> Mach "lazyturn":
> http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/board,73.0.html
> 
> ...


 

I have lazyturn and have to go back and take a better look now, i thought i was doing the right thing by staying with the basic version to keep things simple untill i had the bugs worked out and never thought my problems were software, i always though it had to be something i was or have done wrong somewhere.
 i will give it a closer look
thank you 
steve


----------



## Bloy (Mar 7, 2013)

jumps4 said:


> 5 minutes later the lathe started feeding at full z axis speed and burried the cutter into the part so deep it stopped the spindle motor and was smoking the belt, and the stepper motors were just screaming. steve



This doesn't sound at all like a software problem. I would begin to suspect EMI / RFI, breakout board or something related in the cabling. Power wiring parallel to signal feeds? I'm not saying it isn't Mach3, but your example doesn't sound like it is either.
Any errant programs running in the background? Those kinds of problems are tough to sort out.

Heh! Right now I've been rebooting this computer several times and fiddling with the memory sticks. It started to get slow so I checked the available mem and although I got two gigs, only one was recognized.


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 7, 2013)

I have 2 cnc lathes and 2 cnc mills each with their own pc that does nothing but run that machine, thats all the pc does
it only happens if i try to change feed rate when running if i dont touch anything the program completes perfectly
and the problem also happens if you try to pause and restart then the program gets lost and may not start in the correct position even if i didnt make a move while paused. as long as i start the program and not stop anything everything works.
there is nothing else on the pc i know of that would run it is gutted out just the basics and no network or internet enabled
i can do a " run from here" move just not a pause and restart some times, i think its only when contouring, straight line moves work fine and can be paused and restarted i have run versions from 22 thru 67 trying to get rid of different issues and maybe i find a fix for one and cause something else i havent seen before.
can you change your feed rate in turn while contouring and if so what version are you using?
my system is clean signals nice wave forms and i have no ground loop issues i can find
i'm pretty sure it's software or settings related and may have to do with sync mode being enabled
if i have to set everything in setup for threading different than normal contour turning, making complete parts with lots of operations is not going to work very well. i make one of a kind parts if i was perfecting code for a run of parts it would be easier to get smooth operations figured out and adjust things to work the best for the run. but if i have to change setups for different operations it will be no fun.
steve


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm pretty good at the wiring  and emi/ rfi solutions/prevention
look at all the shielding   lol
steve


----------



## johnas (Mar 7, 2013)

jumps4 said:


> this is my pride and joy build
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/8187-rung-fu-clone-RF-45-ZX45-cnc-conversion
> the lathe was fun but i never put into it what i have the zx45
> i have been so tempted to look into linuxcnc but i'm funny about not trying to get into too many different things all at the same time, it makes mush out of my tiny brain
> steve



I understand the "change the software issue" - I have not had a Microsoft-based OS on my desk since 1996, so I'd be worried about going to Mach3!

Anyway, for me, it's LinuxCNC,  as it works very well, and I have figured it out. I can't bash Mach3, nor can I compare directly; I just understand from the LinuxCNC mailing list, and other boards, that people migrate to LinuxCNC for lathe control. Possibly, there's migration the other way, too, but I don't read those forums or email lists! ;-)

Good luck, and I hope you solve the issue, one way or the other. I really enjoy your postings, please keep going.


----------



## Bloy (Mar 7, 2013)

jumps4 said:


> can you change your feed rate in turn while contouring and if so what version are you using?
> my system is clean signals nice wave forms and i have no ground loop issues i can find
> i'm pretty sure it's software or settings related and may have to do with sync mode being enabled
> steve



As I say, I'm dusting off my machines, so haven't used them lately. 
If I recall, I don't think feedrate changes in mach3turn in sync mode during operations should be done. That may be one of the major "glitches" in Turn.

I never trusted my machines to change the feedrate during operations, although many do. I just did air and scrap tests until I found a comfortable rate to run the code from start to finish....in turn. If I were trying to achieve some level of production, I might be as miffed as you are. Just consider the cost for what it DOES do.


If I were you, I would flood all your pictures and information into the Mach forum and see if you can get answers. Maybe at least you will learn the limitations of Mach3Turn from some of the regulars there, and maybe some workarounds. 
You'll get better responses by informing concisely what you experience. But be nice! 

Remember, show them your setups .


Your electrical system LOOKS good, in fact down right nice! But it does not necessarily exclude sufficient voltage pullups and sinking. Many problems are the differences of computers with 3.5Vdc rather than 5vdc, although I would think you have that covered.

I myself have been thinking of diving into LinuxCNC for lathework and if I "get it", may expand to mill. But i like Mach3 for mill, routing.

You might want to peruse this guy's work.  He has developed a great turning center using the mill.  He has a trunnion fourth axis and other devices.
here is his thread...it is long but skimming through it will reveal many pictures to go along with his explanations.

http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,11422.0.html

Here is his video page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KNit__LJE4


----------



## jumps4 (Mar 7, 2013)

my mill runs on a uc100 usb controller at 200ipm without missing steps ( not that i will run it at that! the 300lb head moving down at 200ipm is scary ) i have max set at 100ipm
and now that i know there is a fix on the way from brian for turn i'm going to do my mods to the lathe anyway ( i bought the parts ) because it will be fixed with mach4. until then i do this as a hobby so there is no real reason to panic.
steve


----------

