# New lathe/mill



## gregc (Apr 17, 2017)

Greetings
I am basically a newbie, but had done limited machining while in college.  I am considering doing some more machining as I am planning to retire and a couple years and thought it would be a good hobby to get into.  

I am debating what to buy for my first mill/lathe.   I could get older machines that are in decent shape (saw a SB 1002 recently at a good price) or buy something new (maybe the PM1030).  I think the small cheap machines  would make more frustration that good output.  I am thinking that around 2K each is about right for the size machine I would like from a budget and space consideration. 

Any recommendations on old or new and maybe any other considerations in limiting the choices.  There are so many choices and many can be found at a lower price w/ patience.   I live in the Dallas area and wondered if there are good resources  here.

Thanks
Greg


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## gregc (Apr 17, 2017)

BTW I was thinking of doing a CNC mod in the future (electrical engineer).

The thing that seems odd that that even modern lathes use gears/transmissions for threading.  Many of the new machines had a brushless DC motor so why not drive the lead screw with another BLDC or stepper motor.  A simple computer could then simply calculate the relative angles to arrive at any thread pitch desired (and repeatable start angles).  If I am doing threads I like to run the machine 'backwards' so that I thread from the chuck out so I don't have to worry about the tool hitting the chuck.  Alternately the CNC can take care of all of these issues like looking at the dial to start.


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## jamby (Apr 17, 2017)

Well that's a tough question it varys so much from person to person.  If your going to retire soon will you be staying in your home or is your wife planning to move?  I retired and moved out of the city to get away from the local tax crazed officials.  That allowed me to build a much bigger shop and hence larger machines.
Old or new?  I lean towards new since they can cut metric threads, have higher speeds for carbide and if lucky there are parts available.  But I do have both in my lathes, one is 1946 Sheldon,  other a 2000 Enco chinese.   But my mill is a Bridgeport clone with 3 axis cnc and Linuxcnc.
Price and availability are the main considerations.   If you want to do machinist work for a hobby you might will require a bit of space both for the machine and the supplies and tooling,  power saw, bench grinder, tool holders,  etc.
Smaller the machine smaller the tools.

Jim


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## gregc (Apr 17, 2017)

Thanks Jim,
I think you confirmed what I was thinking that new or newer would be best.  I am mostly thinking of building small engines (IC and steam). 

We may move just for all of the hobby stuff.  We live out where there weren't so many people and taxes but it seems this has been quickly following us so that may be another incentive. 

My wife likes to repair/paint/refurbish furniture and I also have a lot of woodworking tools and supplies.  Seems we need a shed/barn/garage larger than the house now.  

Smaller tools means smaller projects.  Except for furniture you can usually scale to what fits.  

Thanks
Greg


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## jamby (Apr 17, 2017)

My wife has a piece of my shop / our shop where her kiln sits, she uses it to heat glass until it squeals and flattens out or droops into a form.  Its her piles of stock that take up the room. 
Good live to you in retirement,  I've been retried for 10 years and have started machining more all the time.   Golf is getting harder.

Jim


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## JimDawson (Apr 17, 2017)

Welcome aboard Greg!

There are a lot of options for machines out there.  I don't know your local market, but used equipment is not a bad thing, just find a good value.  Usually it's a balancing act between space and budget.

As far as adding a stepper or BLDC motor to the lead screw, no problem at all.  As long as the computer knows where the spindle and the lead screw is, then you can cut any size thread you want.


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## gregc (Apr 17, 2017)

On the lead screw I don't understand why they don't just replace the gears on most machines .  Seems it would not add much cost if one is not buying the gears and associated hardware


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## jamby (Apr 17, 2017)

Greg
  You being an spark engineer you might want to buy a older nc lathe and rebuild it with a new control/drive system.  They are a much stronger and purpose built.
Jim


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## TakeDeadAim (Apr 17, 2017)

First off welcome to the forum, were glad to have you here.  Buying machines can be daunting but also lots of fun!   I would encourage you to think about what you would like to do with your tools and then size your machines a bit bigger, trust me you will be glad you did.  Bigger projects are always on the horizon, within limits of course, and the added rigidity that goes with size is nice to have.  You will be happy in dealing with Quality Machine Tools, Matt is a great guy who helped me out when another supplier kept me at bay with a machine that was delayed several times and still, several years later, has never shipped to anyone.

Look around at the posts about machines, many questions and discussions on this topic exist and may make for some interesting reading.  Feel free to post questions you have.  You will find this a friendly place to visit.  So much so you may spend more time here than you expected.  Enjoy


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## JimDawson (Apr 17, 2017)

gregc said:


> On the lead screw I don't understand why they don't just replace the gears on most machines .  Seems it would not add much cost if one is not buying the gears and associated hardware



Well, they could, and it might actually be cheaper than the gear train..  Then if you added a motor on the cross slide you would have a full CNC machine.

The problem that I see is that you would lose manual capability.  This is one of the things that is slowing me down on converting my lathe to CNC.  I haven't really dove into the design yet, but when I get to that project, it will be manual/CNC convertible with a flick of a lever/switch.  My mill is full 4 axis CNC or manual with a flick of a lever and a switch.


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## gregc (Apr 17, 2017)

Looks too good to be true.  Any opinion ?

http://equipments-tools.com/metal-wood-machinery/168-south-bend-sb1002-28-bench-lathe.html


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## JimDawson (Apr 17, 2017)

Well the picture looks nice and the price is right, in fact maybe too right.  I have never heard of the vendor, they are in Indonesia.  Grizzly was selling a line under the Southbend name, but I think they discontinued the line.  This could be overstocks or something. 

I wonder how much shipping is, and how much the stand (not included) is?  At least when Grizzly was selling them, you have a USA company to go to when things went south.  Not sure what you might have here.


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## TakeDeadAim (Apr 17, 2017)

Looks like a nice machine.  I know some SB dealers, including Grizzly I believe, were selling their stock of SB off.  Not sure why but they make a nice machine.  Some nice features on this like cam lock spindle, (makes it easier to find other chucks; also retains accuracy better when changing chucks).  These are also a nice machines at prices well below normal 
http://equipments-tools.com/metal-wood-machinery/178-grizzly-g0776-gunsmithing-lathe-with-dro.html
http://equipments-tools.com/metal-wood-machinery/214-baileigh-pl-1236e-metal-lathe.html


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## gregc (Apr 18, 2017)

JimDawson said:


> Well, they could, and it might actually be cheaper than the gear train..  Then if you added a motor on the cross slide you would have a full CNC machine.
> 
> The problem that I see is that you would lose manual capability.  This is one of the things that is slowing me down on converting my lathe to CNC.  I haven't really dove into the design yet, but when I get to that project, it will be manual/CNC convertible with a flick of a lever/switch.  My mill is full 4 axis CNC or manual with a flick of a lever and a switch.



For that I was thinking that one could easily do that with a handle attached and just remove all power from the servo/stepper motor


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## gregc (Apr 18, 2017)

Shipping on the sb was 227.  Still a good price but I was concerned that they might take the money and run.  If they are in Indonesia what could you reasonably do.


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## JimDawson (Apr 18, 2017)

gregc said:


> For that I was thinking that one could easily do that with a handle attached and just remove all power from the servo/stepper motor



On the cross slide, you could just cut power to the servo.  You would want to use a brushed DC servo, they don't cog.  The longitudinal travel is a bit more difficult.  Normally you use a motor attached to a ball screw that drives the carriage.  But the ball screw, even if mechanically disconnected from the motor, still presents some resistance to movement.  And that would not be acceptable in my book.  But it is entirely possible to use the rack & pinion to drive the carriage.  That coupled with a brushed DC servo might make an acceptable system.  Then the only issue is controlling the backlash in the rack & pinion, and that actually pretty easy.


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## gregc (Apr 26, 2017)

Found a lathe that looks intersting 
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/6099775766.html
Looks like it may be nearly worth it just for the tooling.  I have not been able to schedule a change to look at it.
Just wondered what you guys thought.  

If that falls through I was leaning toward one of these two options.
1.  My parents live in Springfield MO so the next option is to drive there and pick one up.
I was thinking of the G0752Z (G0602 w/ extras) and the G0704 mill.  Would be nice just to walk into a show room and then have them load it up.  

2.  The precision mathews pm1022v and pm25mv.   These are a bit more but the extras IMHO more than makes up the difference.  

Just wondered what you guys thought.  

TIA


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## tweinke (Apr 26, 2017)

I would in my opinion give QMT a call and talk, you may be surprised with there helpfulness. I will vouch for the customer service there. And by the way if the electronic driven leadscrew thing is still a thought Google electronic lead screw and read up on the ELS project. I did some research on that a couple years ago and was fascinated . Or this link http://autoartisans.com/ELS/


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## fradish (Apr 26, 2017)

Just curious, why the pm1022v instead of the pm1030v?  Seems like it would
be worth the additional $100 for the extra 8".


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## gregc (Apr 27, 2017)

I was considering the pm1030 and may still do it if that is the option taken. 

Some interesting experiences 

I did call QMT.  They were friendly but when I asked why I shoukd buy there vs someone else selling what looks like the same machin the response was that there really wasn't much difference.  I was hoping to here something more mutually helpful. Like he keeps a better control on the quality from the manufacturer or customer service.  Too bad PA is 1000+ mi away. Would like to see and talk face to face. 

I tried to call the weiss phone # from the US site but never got an answer and many machines list for $0 on the web.  Hmmm

Found a few used machines.  Low end machines here seem to ask what the current retail prices. Some good deals on big machines but don't have the space for 2000# + machines.   Other mid range like sb 9 or 10's go fast or are junk.  Asked one what the brand or model or the swing and they respond that they don't know anything about machinery. 

LMS machines are a bit smaller than desired. 

On the web site above with the sb with a "great" asked me to wire the money first to Indonesia.  Many of the machines on amazon do the same By asking for email first.  Reported but they still show up every Friday eve and disappear in a few hours only to show up again under different name. 

Quite an experience so far.  Lol


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## fradish (Apr 27, 2017)

Have you looked at the dropros.com site?  They carry a few Weiss lathes and milling machines.
I would think Dro Pros would be a more reputable way to buy than some place which asks you
to wire money to a foreign country...   

http://www.dropros.com/DRO_PROS_Weiss_Lathes.htm
http://www.dropros.com/DRO_PROS_Weiss_Mills.htm

For what it is worth, I have a PM727 mill and a PM1228 lathe and
am happy with both of them.  However one of the deciding factors 
for me was that PM is ~1/2 hour drive away from me and I was
able to pick them up myself.  Matt seems like a really good guy
to work with and he has always gotten back to me quickly, though
I try not to pester him.

I also recently bought a set of 1/2" shank carbide insert tools from him
and was again very happy with what I got.


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## fradish (Apr 27, 2017)

One thing I noticed about the Dro Pros lathes is that they are cheaper mainly
(I think) because they do more of an ala cart thing where the base package
doesn't include as much as a PM1030v (for example).  If you wanted to get
a 4 jaw and a faceplate and a steady rest and a follower rest those would all
be extra on the Dro Pros site.  This could be a good thing if you really don't
need all of those or it might be more expensive than buying the PM1030v if
you wanted it all.

I should also point out that the WBL290F on the DroPros site (11x29) has
a D1-4 spindle.  This may not be that important to you, but I really like the
flexibility it gives you.  It is much easier to buy a 3rd party D1-4 chuck or
attachment than it is to have to machine a back plate each time for a non-standard
chuck.  That being said, I just looked and one of the options listed as an accessory
for all 3 lathes are backing plates, so maybe that wouldn't be that much of a hassle
after all.   You would still probably need to machine the boss that the chuck
mounts up to as well as drill and counter bore the holes for mounting a plain back chuck.


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## gregc (May 31, 2017)

Hi Guys
I have been busy so progress on the objective has been slow.

My parent live in Springfield and I thought I'd go to the Grizzly showroom and see.   Thought is would be much nicer to see and touch in person as it seemed all the 10x22 lathes were almost the same except for the accessories that are included.  I placed an order for an G0752.  However afterward I looked again and noticed that it wasn't exactly american/imperial.  Looks like the lead screws were 4 turns/cm not 10 TPI with dials that were calibrated in inches.  Close except it would have been very annoying to for 0.100" to be one full turn plus ~0.005".  I would have preferred the whole machine be built for metric rather than the hermaphrodite it was.   I canceled the order before I left the store. 

I also looked at a couple used SB machines but around here they seem to be too high wrt to buying new IMHO.   I did not want to have to drive to Ohio from Texas on a hunch that the lathe was worth the drive (It would have had to be a great deal to justify the long drive).  

So after these experiences and some thought I am going to buy a PM machine in a couple days.   Debating between PM1127 and PM1228.   I am currently leaning toward PM1127 but would appreciate any information that may help decide.  PM explicitly stated that their machines were in true inches.   I guess that was the final selling point for me.   Had a nice chat with Mat and appreciated his candor.  One feature that many of the UK lathes have is the lead screw cover.  None of the machines here seem to have this.  This would seem to be a worthwhile expenditure to keep the lathe in good condition.  I am thinking that this will probably be a enhancement shortly after delivery. 

Thanks everyone for the feedback.   Now on for a mill decision.  
I was wondering what you guys thought of the mini knee mills.  






The only mills I have used were bridgeport's so I was thinking it would be more comfortable with my experience. 

Otherwise it is between the PM30 and PM932 leaning toward the PM30 mostly for the VFD feature.


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## Dave Paine (May 31, 2017)

gregc said:


> Thanks everyone for the feedback.   Now on for a mill decision.
> I was wondering what you guys thought of the mini knee mills.



I have a Grizzly G1008 made in 1999 which looks very similar to the one in the picture.  I purchased this from the original owner a few months ago.




I make tools and jigs for wood work and wood turning, so not critical dimensions.  This is serving my needs.

I will eventually replace the motor with a 3 phase motor and VFD.  Changing the belt is a hassle due to insufficient movement on the motor bracket so the belt is not slack enough to remove from the pulley and put on another pulley without a lot of effort, and sometimes skinned knuckles.  The original owner added a bare bones DRO which makes using the mill so much easier.

No nod function, so relying on the factor to have made the spindle 90 deg to the table in the Y axis.  Tramming the head is nudge and fudge, no screws or bolts to tweak the tramm adjustment.  Just takes more time.


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## fradish (May 31, 2017)

The main advantages of the PM1228 are the D1-4 spindle and the 2HP motor.  I think the PM1127 comes with a 1HP motor and
much more tooling (like a 4 jaw chuck, faceplate, live center, drill chuck & Wedge QCTP & holders).

I went with the PM1228 because of the D1-4 spindle.  I figured it would be simpler for me to buy D1-4 chucks
in the future than buying plain back chucks and having to machine backplates to fit the PM1127's non-standard
spindle.  I would have to say though, I think the PM1127 is probably a better value, especially if you are just starting
out and don't have the extra tooling that comes with the PM1127 that you don't get with the PM1228.

Update: According to gregc and the new PM website (see his post below) the PM1127 now also has a D1-4 spindle.
The only reasons I could see choosing the PM1228 over the PM1127 would be if you really
wanted the 2HP motor or needed the very small increases in bed length and swing.  For those
minor increases, you are missing out on a fair amount of tooling that the PM1127 comes with.
If I had to do it over again I would have chosen the PM1127.  Not that there is anything
wrong with my PM1228, I like it a lot,  I just think the PM1127 comes with enough extra tooling that I think it would have been a better value to me.

Also, possibly to make up for the additional cost of the D1-4 spindle, it looks like the
live center and drill chuck are no longer included in the PM1127 package and the price
is $100 more than it was on the "machine tools online" website, but I still think this is
a great deal.


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## gregc (May 31, 2017)

One thing that seems odd is that the PM1228 has a slightly larger swing, longer bed, slightly larger motor but slightly less weight than the PM1127.
Now they both have the D1-4 spindles.

The PM1127 has the QCTP and the 1228 does not.  I have a QCTP and asked if I could get a refund on that or store credit for other accessories.  No was the answer.
The other added tooling on the PM1127 would be helpful.


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## fradish (May 31, 2017)

Are you sure the PM1127 has a D1-4 spindle?  The webpage on machine tools online 
still says direct mount.  If the PM1127 had a D1-4 when I was looking, I would have
bought that instead.


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## gregc (May 31, 2017)

fradish said:


> Are you sure the PM1127 has a D1-4 spindle?  The webpage on machine tools online
> still says direct mount.  If the PM1127 had a D1-4 when I was looking, I would have
> bought that instead.



Did you look at the new site?

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1127vf-lb/

Matt must have been upgrading the site as it was down when I almost bought the grizzly thinking he closed shop for some reason 




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## fradish (May 31, 2017)

No, I was still looking at the machine tools online site.  In that case I think the PM1127
is definitely the way to go.  Thanks for the link to the new site!


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## fradish (Jun 1, 2017)

Gregc, when you mentioned that the PM1228 weighs less than the PM1127, I think some of that is the extra tooling.  If you look
at the PM1127 manual, they describe the machine weight as 210 kgs (462 lbs).  If you look in the PM1228 manual, they list the machine
weight as 215 kgs.  The PM1228 without accessories is a little heavier, but probably not enough to matter.  The overall shipping weight is more for
the PM1127 because you get more tooling.

I don't think you need me to sell you on the PM1127 any more than I already have, but
another plus is that the forward/reverse feed selector is next to the QCGB levers.  On the
PM1228 you need to open up the cover, loosen a bolt and move a lever (sort of how my old SouthBend 9C does it).


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## gregc (Jul 20, 2017)

Checked the 1228  and the reverse is a button above speed control.  In another post I decided that the extra hp would be nice along with a couple other features.  Changed the order a couple weeks ago.  I think that reset the wait time 




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