# Thinking of Purchasing a Craftsman 12"



## ChandlerJPerry (May 3, 2020)

Hey everyone, this is my first post on hobby machinist. I've lurked quite a bit over on practical, but you guys seemed a little friendlier. I work in sheet metal at a machine shop right now, and am looking to put a shop together in my garage. Unfortunately I am in Northern UT, and the market for machines seems to be sparse, a road trip to California isn't really in the cards for me at the moment either. I found this machine listed locally, but unfortunately it's at auction on eBay, with a starting bid of $750. I did some research on the serial and found it to be an early to mid 40's 12". What would you all feel comfortable paying for it? Frankly in real value I think it's worth about $500, but thanks to scarcity where I am I couldn't see myself paying more than $800. Definitely needs new belts and the rust looks superficial but it needs a thorough cleaning as well. It doesn't have a taper or milling attachment, steady, 4 jaw, or QCTP. And obv no QCGB. Thoughts? And does anyone in my neck of the woods have any tips for finding machines? Even the dealers in Salt Lake came up dry other than a Jet 9x20 that was lacking on features.


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## matthewsx (May 3, 2020)

Hi and welcome.

That machine looks like a project, and one that might not be very satisfying when you get it finished. Time will be your best friend here, it's natural to want to get started right away but you're much more likely to have a good experience by being patient, whether it's waiting for the right deal to come up or saving your money until you can buy new.

Flat ways and no QCGB make the machine in question less desirable than many others of the same vintage, if it was up and running that would be one thing but without the ability to test it out you could be buying a pig in a poke (whatever that means)

Check out the journey that @DavidR8 went through recently, his story isn't too much different that what you're facing.

Cheers,

John


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## Ulma Doctor (May 3, 2020)

imo, hold out for a better lathe


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## gr8legs (May 3, 2020)

You know your local market better than any of us - so if this is a 'once in a lifetime bargain' then definitely bid (or snipe on esnipe.com) on it up to your $800 limit.

There are no bids but 24 watchers, so there may or may not be a last-minute bidding frenzy. Local pickup only would be a problem for most buyers. If no bids the seller will probably re-list it and try again, hopefully at a lower minimum. I'd wait and see, another will come along eventually. Watch your local craigslist religiously - good stuff there comes and goes quickly.

However, that machine is definitely a project. Also remember "Carla's rule of 3". To get what you really want you have to sequentially buy two of something somewhat less than you hope for - after getting #1 and #2 lathe then the machine of your dreams will finally show up. That's when to pounce. And sell on #1 and #2 as you go along. 

Just my opinion - YMMV

Stu


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## benmychree (May 3, 2020)

Looks pretty junky to me, and most of the tools with it are ditto, plus too much money by far.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 3, 2020)

I quite like that rule of 3 Stu, I've never heard that before. Utah is somewhat unique in that we basically don't use Craigslist, we have our own website called KSL, it serves the same function though and I have been checking it daily in hopes of finding something. I've also been looking at craigslist in surrounding states but it's been getting frustrating for sure. I've been on the hunt for several weeks now, if not months. The only other machines for sale near me are a South Bend 9C with very little tooling for 2,000, and a Jet 9x20 with a decent amount of tooling, which is a small import that uses change gears and has no tumble reverse or motor reverse for 1,200. Insanity if you ask me. Really my ideal would be something in the size range of a 10-13" SB, Logan or Sheldon, but I'm starting to feel like I will have to settle for something like this. Any lathe is better than no lathe after all.


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## DavidR8 (May 3, 2020)

If you can get it for small dollars then it’s probably ok. But no more than $600-800. IMHO 


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## matthewsx (May 3, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> I quite like that rule of 3 Stu, I've never heard that before. Utah is somewhat unique in that we basically don't use Craigslist, we have our own website called KSL, it serves the same function though and I have been checking it daily in hopes of finding something. I've also been looking at craigslist in surrounding states but it's been getting frustrating for sure. I've been on the hunt for several weeks now, if not months. The only other machines for sale near me are a South Bend 9C with very little tooling for 2,000, and a Jet 9x20 with a decent amount of tooling, which is a small import that uses change gears and has no tumble reverse or motor reverse for 1,200. Insanity if you ask me. Really my ideal would be something in the size range of a 10-13" SB, Logan or Sheldon, but I'm starting to feel like I will have to settle for something like this. Any lathe is better than no lathe after all.


Maybe any is better than none but assuming you aren’t in the position to buy new, whatever money you spend on buying and fixing up this one is not available to use on something better.

If the craftsman is local to you why not go take a look at it. Seeing it in person will give you a much better idea of what will be involved. For reference I just refurbished a 6” craftsman and have roughly the same amount into fixing it up as I paid for it.

john


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## Yorkus (May 3, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> Hey everyone, this is my first post on hobby machinist. I've lurked quite a bit over on practical, but you guys seemed a little friendlier. I work in sheet metal at a machine shop right now, and am looking to put a shop together in my garage. Unfortunately I am in Northern UT, and the market for machines seems to be sparse, a road trip to California isn't really in the cards for me at the moment either. I found this machine listed locally, but unfortunately it's at auction on eBay, with a starting bid of $750. I did some research on the serial and found it to be an early to mid 40's 12". What would you all feel comfortable paying for it? Frankly in real value I think it's worth about $500, but thanks to scarcity where I am I couldn't see myself paying more than $800. Definitely needs new belts and the rust looks superficial but it needs a thorough cleaning as well. It doesn't have a taper or milling attachment, steady, 4 jaw, or QCTP. And obv no QCGB. Thoughts? And does anyone in my neck of the woods have any tips for finding machines? Even the dealers in Salt Lake came up dry other than a Jet 9x20 that was lacking on features.



I live in the same area as you. Your best bet is to watch the classified section of KSL.com. I have purchased a number of Atlas Lathes, restore & Repair them and resell on this same site. You may need to increase your budget for this purchase, 6” Atlas go for $400 to $800 in this area depending on condition and tooling. 12” Atlas go for $900 to $1800 depending on the same conditions. I have a 6” I am working on at the moment. My personal Lathe is a 12” Commercial from the 1970’s. I have been very happy with my Atlas lathes.


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## DavidR8 (May 3, 2020)

What worked for me was putting out a want ad. I did that and had four responses in minutes. 


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 3, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Maybe any is better than none but assuming you aren’t in the position to buy new, whatever money you spend on buying and fixing up this one is not available to use on something better.
> 
> If the craftsman is local to you why not go take a look at it. Seeing it in person will give you a much better idea of what will be involved. For reference I just refurbished a 6” craftsman and have roughly the same amount into fixing it up as I paid for it.
> 
> john


I already asked if the seller would be interested in allowing me to come in person with cash in hand but they would prefer to play the eBay game, they told me they have been in touch with people willing to purchase it on there and pay shipping, which I think is a bluff but what can you do? He also told me that he thinks it's worth his minimum bid at least as there are others on the site selling for more. Never mind that those are ready to run with better tooling and features lol. In his listing he states that he doesn't know much about it, so I guess that's wrapped all the way around from, "no lowballers I know what I have" to the opposite end of the spectrum where he knows so little that he doesn't know what it's really worth lol.


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## DavidR8 (May 3, 2020)

For what it’s worth there is another member here who bought a lathe on eBay and it turned out to be a complete wreck (imho) even though the seller thought it was in great shape. 


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 3, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> What worked for me was putting out a want ad. I did that and had four responses in minutes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good tip that I've yet to try, I just made my own want ad, I will have to see if I can drag anything in.


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## ARC-170 (May 3, 2020)

I have a similar lathe that I bought in similar condition for about $400. I live in LA. I learned a lot restoring it. I can't tell what some of the parts are in the pictures, but they don't look like they belong to a lathe. This has a stand, which is a plus. I don't miss a QCGB as much as I thought.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 3, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> I have a similar lathe that I bought in similar condition for about $400. I live in LA. I learned a lot restoring it. I can't tell what some of the parts are in the pictures, but they don't look like they belong to a lathe. This has a stand, which is a plus. I don't miss a QCGB as much as I thought.


Yeah I more or less wrote the tools and accessories off as junk, there might be a few good things in there if one were to pick through it, but they aren't much of a selling point to me. Currently I would like a QCGB but it's less of a requirement anymore. In my current position turning down a machine for lack of it would be silly.


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## ARC-170 (May 3, 2020)

Could you convince the seller to let you come look at it? To him you want to inspect it in person before bidding. Maybe wait until after his first auction is over and show up with cash. Of course, with 20+ watchers, they may all be waiting to bid. You never know. If you lose it, there will be others. I looked for a few weeks and asked lots of questions and learned what to look for. When a machine came up, I knew what to expect. My $400 lathe has cost me about $1000 extra in tooling, etc. But it has been fun! And I've learned so much about it. Hang in there! Good luck.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 3, 2020)

ARC-170 said:


> Could you convince the seller to let you come look at it? To him you want to inspect it in person before bidding. Maybe wait until after his first auction is over and show up with cash. Of course, with 20+ watchers, they may all be waiting to bid. You never know. If you lose it, there will be others. I looked for a few weeks and asked lots of questions and learned what to look for. When a machine came up, I knew what to expect. My $400 lathe has cost me about $1000 extra in tooling, etc. But it has been fun! And I've learned so much about it. Hang in there! Good luck.


Part of the reason I offered to show up with cash is that this is the second auction. He initially asked like $1,200 I think which went nowhere. He relisted it and has been severely dropping the price every couple days to where it is now, so I thought for sure that meant he wanted to move it and would entertain me.


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## matthewsx (May 3, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> I already asked if the seller would be interested in allowing me to come in person with cash in hand but they would prefer to play the eBay game, they told me they have been in touch with people willing to purchase it on there and pay shipping, which I think is a bluff but what can you do? He also told me that he thinks it's worth his minimum bid at least as there are others on the site selling for more. Never mind that those are ready to run with better tooling and features lol. In his listing he states that he doesn't know much about it, so I guess that's wrapped all the way around from, "no lowballers I know what I have" to the opposite end of the spectrum where he knows so little that he doesn't know what it's really worth lol.



Think about it like this, if you wanted a used car would you buy it sight unseen?

It may well be that this is the best you can do for your money but you don't know because the seller won't let you inspect it. Either they have something to hide or they are one of those sellers that is impossible to deal with. Either way I think I would pass on this one.

Lots of folks on here have been where you are and the ones who do their homework, wait for the right deal, and have the cash in hand when it comes are happiest with the outcome. 

Restoring old tools is a cool hobby and one that I've quite enjoyed. It is however a different thing than just making stuff and if you don't already have a lathe you might need a different one to make the parts for the one you're restoring. Be honest with yourself about how much time and effort you are willing to put into a project and what your ultimate budget really is. It's easy to go down a path that will end up costing more than buying new if you're not familiar with fixing old tools. Even if you are things like hidden cracks can put a big dent in your budget, ask me how I know this....




John


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 3, 2020)

Thank you to everyone for the advice, I think I am going to let this one go unless the price takes a sudden and unexpected nosedive. I did post a wanted ad and will keep my eyes open for another machine.


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## mickri (May 4, 2020)

I looked for a year before I found my Craftsman 12x36.  And it was only a couple of miles from my house.  As I searched it became apparent that most sellers didn't know squat about what they were selling.  I figured that anything that came out of a machine shop was worn out and would need lots of love to be usable.  In the end I concentrated on estate sales where the family was selling off Grampa's stuff.  In your area I would also look in the obituaries searching for a reference to a machinist having passed away.  Follow up with the family about what they might have for sale.

 Also have you mentioned to people where you work that you are looking for a lathe for a garage shop.  One of your co workers may have one sitting in a corner of their garage or know someone who has a lathe.

You won't get any deals from a dealer.  Dealers will sell off all of the tooling that they can and will only include a bare minimum of what they couldn't sell separately with the lathe.  Tooling can often cost more than the lathe.

And you definitely want to inspect the lathe before making an offer. 

Have you thought about what you would like to make with your lathe?  Write out what I call a statement of requirements, SOR for short, that your lathe will need to be able to do to make what you want.  Doing gunsmithing requires a totally different machine than making clocks.  You will also find that hobby size machines will sell for top dollar in most areas whereas big lathes will sell for scrap value or less.

Most of all be patient.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 4, 2020)

mickri said:


> I looked for a year before I found my Craftsman 12x36.  And it was only a couple of miles from my house.  As I searched it became apparent that most sellers didn't know squat about what they were selling.  I figured that anything that came out of a machine shop was worn out and would need lots of love to be usable.  In the end I concentrated on estate sales where the family was selling off Grampa's stuff.  In your area I would also look in the obituaries searching for a reference to a machinist having passed away.  Follow up with the family about what they might have for sale.
> 
> Also have you mentioned to people where you work that you are looking for a lathe for a garage shop.  One of your co workers may have one sitting in a corner of their garage or know someone who has a lathe.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice. I will definitely have to ask around work. I have thought that estate sales would be a great place to look but am having trouble finding them in my area. Is there a good resource for them besides local classifieds? As far as what I would like to make, I have nothing particular in mind, most likely odds and ends for automotive repair or whatever else I'm tearing apart at the moment, I have a moderate interest in gunsmithing but that's not an immediate requirement for me, so I think something in the 9-12" range is what I would like. Currently I actually have an old Yost vise I'm working on repairing that needs a new handle, I would like to turn one and thread the ends, then make some knobs for it. There are some large machines for sale in my area but I think the maximum I could comfortably fit in my garage is around a 14x40 or so.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 4, 2020)

mickri said:


> I looked for a year before I found my Craftsman 12x36.  And it was only a couple of miles from my house.  As I searched it became apparent that most sellers didn't know squat about what they were selling.  I figured that anything that came out of a machine shop was worn out and would need lots of love to be usable.  In the end I concentrated on estate sales where the family was selling off Grampa's stuff.  In your area I would also look in the obituaries searching for a reference to a machinist having passed away.  Follow up with the family about what they might have for sale.
> 
> Also have you mentioned to people where you work that you are looking for a lathe for a garage shop.  One of your co workers may have one sitting in a corner of their garage or know someone who has a lathe.
> 
> ...


Furthermore, I can totally scan obits, however is there an inoffensive way to reach out to a family that has just lost someone while trying to scoop up their loved one's belongings? I was just pondering the idea and realized I would probably be offended if someone contacted me because they were scanning obituaries for potential material gain, but that may just be me.


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## Aaron_W (May 4, 2020)

Now is probably not the best time to be buying a used lathe, I've noticed a reduction in machines showing up on Craigslist and even ebay since the lockdown. Things do still pop up, so is worth keeping an eye open, but don't get desperate thinking what you see now is all there is. Also with CL (and likely your KSL) you need to check often and strike fast when you see a real deal, or someone else will get it. It isn't like ebay where things hang around for a week. The really good deals can be gone in hours.

Even if you can't make the drive look at other Craigslist areas, Phoenix, Reno, Sacramento, San Francisco, and Los Angeles just to see what is out there and some idea of prices. I would also be very leary of buying a lathe or mill sight unseen, photos can give you an idea, but still a lot of unknowns. Ebay is good for tooling, but the difficulty in getting hands on makes it not so great for machines. Ebay machine prices also tend to be considerably higher than Craigslist in general. 


As far as the lathe you posted, it is a change gear lathe and none of that tooling is anything special. It does not have a steady rest or follow rest, those are not the easiest parts to find and they can be relatively expensive when you do. I've seen them on ebay for $300-400 each, assume you get them for half that and you are still looking at 1/2 again what you paid for the lathe. Also no 4 Jaw chuck, that could be $100-200 for an inexpensive import, more for something better. It does have a bunch of change gear in its favor. 

A QCGB is not something easily added later. On a smaller lathe I'd be less concerned about it since it is uncommon on lathes smaller than 10", but they are pretty common on older 10" and larger lathes, so worth holding out for unless it is checking off all of your other wants. The tooling included with a lathe can make a huge difference between an ok deal and a great deal particularly with a vintage lathe where parts and tooling often require a hunt.


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## wa5cab (May 4, 2020)

In general, when you go beyond about 12x36, you can expect a significant increase in the machine weight and in the cost of tooling, accessories and supplies.  For various reasons, the cost of the machines may not go up a whole bunch but the cost of what probably won't come with the machine but that you can't do much without does.

The Atlas built Sears lathe that you were looking at is a 101.07383, which is the final version of the Babbit bearing models that Sears sold.  It also looked like it was probably a 12x24.  If you have the space, you probably want a 12x36 (or a 10x36).  Babbit bearing machines can do good work but don't buy one of them without an evaluation of the bearing condition.  They are expensive but you can still buy and replace the Timken bearings found in the 101.07403 and the two QCGB versions of it, 101.27430 and 101.27440.  If the babbit bearings are still in good condition, they will probably outlast the owner in a hobby shop.  But if they are worn out past the four shim layers that they came with, about your only recourse will be to replace the headstock.  Some people will tell you that you can always re-pour the bearings.  And you can.  But doing it successfully if you haven't already done several and are equipped to do it is far from a trivial undertaking.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 4, 2020)

Well I let it go and despite the seller's talk about the value, it didn't receive a single bid before the auction ended! I'm curious to see if they relist it but at this point I'm not interested in it for more than a couple hundred dollars if at all.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 4, 2020)

For anyone who would like a good chuckle, today the seller messaged me completely unprompted and said the following:

"Hi, the item is relisted with the buy it now or best offer option. I have to sell it through ebay since communication is through here. If you like please make your best offer I do not really want to haggle."

The really funny part is that the buy it now price has gone up to $900, vs the previous starting bid of $750 . This is the third time it's been relisted after going without a sale. Just a humorous little update I thought some of you might appreciate.


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## pdentrem (May 4, 2020)

Nobody is going to pay for shipping this lathe! Would cost 2x more than his minimum price after crating and the crate will weigh about 50% of the lathe if done properly.
It is babbit lathe, strike 1. 
Tooling is minimal, dirty and rusty, strike 2.
No inspection, Strike 3!
30 years ago, I purchased a Atlas 10D from a co worker’s husband. Still had to spend for expendable parts. After 20 years I had put in another grand. I did not begrudge doing so, as it is the cost of owning anything. I still liked it, but a better, newer by 70 years came up for less than what I had in the Atlas. Bought it and sold the Atlas for 600 to another friend who wanted a small lathe for home.

Is this one a project? Hard to say without close inspection. Does not look overly bad. QCTP tool holders are not that expensive and flat ways is not a curse. Many modern CNC machining centers use them, but the wear area is in the first 10” from the chuck. Depending on the accuracy you are looking for, this could be a concern.
Good Luck and stay safe.
Pierre


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## matthewsx (May 4, 2020)

Okay, I hate to say this but I'm gonna go ahead since I don't know your personal details.

I lived in Mesa, AZ for 8 years, for those who don't know it's kinda like Salt Lake South. It took me probably 4 years before I figured out the secret of getting just about anything there from business insurance to a good roofer. I finally realized that all I had to do was ask my buddy Dave who was in good at the local temple.

In a tight knit community it's often the religious leaders who have access to information like who to contact about purchasing items from an estate or a closed business. In Utah you know who that is....

John


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 4, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Okay, I hate to say this but I'm gonna go ahead since I don't know your personal details.
> 
> I lived in Mesa, AZ for 8 years, for those who don't know it's kinda like Salt Lake South. It took me probably 4 years before I figured out the secret of getting just about anything there from business insurance to a good roofer. I finally realized that all I had to do was ask my buddy Dave who was in good at the local temple.
> 
> ...


Ha, I appreciate your honesty! I know exactly what you mean but unfortunately I was not born into the, "secret club" as it were. I also don't really have friends that participate either. Not exactly my kind of crowd to be honest. Maybe I need to make friends with my local bishop, or meet some churchgoers in the neighborhood.


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## tq60 (May 4, 2020)

We had one of those, $100.00, upgraded when we found next...

We all start with what we find and keep looking.

That being stated, $300.00 would be max amount with pickup.



The only good part is it is a learning lathe meaning it will hurt you less and once you figure put how to make anything with it you will have a decent skill set.

HF sells a mini lathe for about 500.00 on sale that does good work for its size and within the work space much better than this.

Portable and can be put on a shelf so you can learn and get buy until next one comes along.

We had both...

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## matthewsx (May 4, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> Ha, I appreciate your honesty! I know exactly what you mean but unfortunately I was not born into the, "secret club" as it were. I also don't really have friends that participate either. Not exactly my kind of crowd to be honest. Maybe I need to make friends with my local bishop, or meet some churchgoers in the neighborhood.



Yeah, me neither but I knew a guy through classic cars who was well connected. They're friendly enough people and if you're going to start contacting widows and such it would be good to have a connection. Just sayin....

John


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 4, 2020)

tq60 said:


> We had one of those, $100.00, upgraded when we found next...
> 
> We all start with what we find and keep looking.
> 
> ...


I was actually just at Hazard Fraught the other day and looked at the 7x14, cute little thing but ultimately the quality on it seemed poor, and frankly even smaller than I would want for my purposes. They're a fun little machine to learn on I would imagine, I certainly wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth if one crossed my path for cheap, but I think I would put my money elsewhere rather than buy a new one.


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## tq60 (May 4, 2020)

You may need to make a road trip or as others suggested place a wanted ad

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## wa5cab (May 5, 2020)

I'll have to take exception to your comment that it is barely better than a wood lathe.  In the first place, wood lathes won't cut threads and this one not only could but had what looked like probably a full set of Change Gears.  In the second place, wood lathes don't have Back Gears, which this one has.  And in the third place, your comments were derogatory and if repeated about anyone's machine regardless of who made it can and probably will get you banned for life. 

In the fourth place, a lathe light enough to put up on a shelf when you aren't using it is in a totally different category from a lathe large and heavy enough to swing a nearly 12" part.  The mini lathes have their place but it isn't in place of something this large.

Having said all of that, I will add that any babbit bearing lathe regardless of who made it should only be considered if (a) you only want it for parts that you can see are present or (b) you or if you don't know what you are looking at , someone who does can inspect the babbit or any other type of spindle bearings that aren't practical to replace.  That applies to lathes made by anyone.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 5, 2020)

wa5cab said:


> I'll have to take exception to your comment that it is barely better than a wood lathe.  In the first place, wood lathes won't cut threads and this one not only could but had what looked like probably a full set of Change Gears.  In the second place, wood lathes don't have Back Gears, which this one has.  And in the third place, your comments were derogatory and if repeated about anyone's machine regardless of who made it can and probably will get you banned for life.
> 
> In the fourth place, a lathe light enough to put up on a shelf when you aren't using it is in a totally different category from a lathe large and heavy enough to swing a nearly 12" part.  The mini lathes have their place but it isn't in place of something this large.
> 
> Having said all of that, I will add that any babbit bearing lathe regardless of who made it should only be considered if (a) you only want it for parts that you can see are present or (b) you or if you don't know what you are looking at , someone who does can inspect the babbit or any other type of spindle bearings that aren't practical to replace.  That applies to lathes made by anyone.


I reiterated to the seller that I may be interested if I can conduct an in person inspection, and they never replied, so I think this machine is no longer on the table for me. But in better news a 1940's South Bend Heavy 10 has popped up about 5 hours away, maybe I'll work out a deal if it's a nice machine. I'll be on the hunt for awhile I think. Thanks again everyone!


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## cjtoombs (May 5, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> Yeah I more or less wrote the tools and accessories off as junk, there might be a few good things in there if one were to pick through it, but they aren't much of a selling point to me. Currently I would like a QCGB but it's less of a requirement anymore. In my current position turning down a machine for lack of it would be silly.



Most of that stuff is probably junk, but those change gears would probably cost well over a hundred dollars if you had to buy them seperately.   The bad thing about the lathe is that it doesn't really come with many of the other accesories that make the lathe useful.  No 4 jaw chuck, steady rest, follow rest, quick change toolpost.  There might be some dead and live centers in that mess, I don't know.  Of course, all that stuff is readily available used or new (some of it), but then that runs into more money.  I paid about $500 for a 12" Craftsman that came better tooled than that one and I probably have about $2000 in it now, total, but it is very well equiped.  My biggest problems with the lathe are that the headstock was on crooked, which I fixed, and it's a bear to part off with, due mainly I think to lack of rigidity, which I am working on.  The Atlas/Craftsman machine tools were not the best of the day, but they are more affordable, easier to find parts and accessories for and you can do good work on them.


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## Dhal22 (May 6, 2020)

I'm a bit lost trying to find the 'derogatory ' comments that could get one banned in this thread.   In my 15 years of forums membership I've seen many banned for obvious reasons but don't see anything here.   Please explain.

EDIT - He violated Rules #6 and #7.  If anyone dislikes a particular brand/badge of machines, then he/she had best avoid that Forum and thus avoid the temptation of making deliberately disparaging remarks about someone else's equipment.


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## JPMacG (May 6, 2020)

Yes, lathe accessories are a killer.  I recently paid $200 for an Atlas steady rest.  A good set of accessories are more valuable than the lathe itself.


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## matthewsx (May 6, 2020)

Dhal22 said:


> I'm a bit lost trying to find the 'derogatory ' comments that could get one banned in this thread.   In my 15 years of forums membership I've seen many banned for obvious reasons but don't see anything here.   Please explain.











						READ THE SITE RULES HERE (TERMS OF SERVICE)
					

WELCOME TO THE HOBBY-MACHINIST!  This place was founded in September, 2010 so that we could all help one another learn. Please do not ever be afraid to ask a question on THIS forum. We're here to help, not to flame, criticize or judge each other.  This site is owned by a Not-for-Profit...




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I believe rule number 6 means that whatever you think of any specific machine one needs to keep their opinion civil and factual. Since the comment was only directed at the machine itself and not the owner it apparently didn't cross the line, thus only a warning from the moderator.

If you spend any time on other machining forums you probably have seen comments that disparaged owners of certain "hobby level" machines or outright bans on even mentioning them. That's one of the things that makes this forum different, it doesn't matter what machine you have or how you use it, you are welcome to discuss it here.

That's just my take, if you have more questions contact a moderator.

Cheers,

John


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## gr8legs (May 6, 2020)

If you are still interested in the lathe why not make a best offer at about $300? Worst that can happen, seller says 'no'

You may get a counteroffer that you can live with - or not. 

Your offer shows you are a serious buyer and gives the seller a reality check if no other/better offers are received and the transaction may continue.

Keep in mind with the rust, lack of tooling and no QCGB or QCTP (among other shortcomings) this is definitely a 'starter' project. 

YMMV

Stu


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## Nogoingback (May 6, 2020)

It looks like I'm a bit late to the party here, but I'll throw in my two cents.

The problem of finding a decent used lathe at an affordable price is probably one that almost all of us have experienced.  As the Atlas/South
Bend/Logan/etc. lathes get older and older it becomes more difficult.  If you live in most of the western US it's even more difficult.  So,
I'll start by asking a question that, surprisingly, almost never comes up in these discussions: what's your budget?  When I bought my
Logan I had the same problems that you're experiencing, and finally bought one that seemed to be in pretty good shape, though I knew
that it needed work.  I payed $600.00.  This was the down payment on what turned out to be a much more expensive
proposition.  Repairs, missing parts, tooling and my decision to add a 3 phase motor/VFD all added up very rapidly, and for the money
I spent I could have bought a new machine and saved myself a lot of time and trouble.  I'm happy with my machine now, but that's what it
took.

The majority of old lathes offered for sale will be something like mine: neglected machines that are projects which WILL cost more than
the seductive lowball price that they eventually sell for.   If you enjoy the challenges of machine restoration that's great, but if you want
to get started in your hobby and learn to make parts you want a working machine, not a project.  There are folks on this forum that will
tell you that if you JUST wait long enough, you'll find a good machine at a great price, and it can happen.  But, most of those folks
already have lathes in their shop, so they can afford to be patient.

I would suggest that before you buy a used machine, you look at some machines for sale with the goal of learning how to evaluate a
lathe.  It's just like looking for a used car: you have to kick tires for a while before you can recognize a deal when you see it.  Buying
the first lathe you see or a lathe that's simply cheap is a recipe for grief.

If you buy a used lathe, try to buy from a guy like me: that already spent the time and money to make it a viable working machine.
Don't plan on buying a machine that isn't in working order. 

Seriously think about what the budget is.  It is highly unlikely that you will find a tooled up, ready to go lathe in decent shape for
less than $1000.00. Budget at least double that.  And keep in mind that if you can afford that, for a little more you can buy
a decent new machine like this:  https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1022v-pm-1030v/


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## Aaron_W (May 6, 2020)

Nogoingback said:


> It looks like I'm a bit late to the party here, but I'll throw in my two cents.
> 
> The problem of finding a decent used lathe at an affordable price is probably one that almost all of us have experienced.  As the Atlas/South
> Bend/Logan/etc. lathes get older and older it becomes more difficult.  If you live in most of the western US it's even more difficult.  So,
> ...



Just adding to the above, there often seems to be a desire to score a great deal. This us understandable as most of us have a budget, spending more than necessary in one area takes away from another. However on a machine like a lathe, that can last a lifetime (some having been built before their current owners were born), paying $500 or $1000 more than the super deal another found is nothing in the long run."Over paying" by even $1000 on a machine that is satisfying to you, works out to only $100 per year if you get 10 years of use out of it.

Also while it is great if you get a lifetime machine the first time out, a lot of people upgrade as their needs change or their experience grows. Looking for the perfect machine can take years, while an imperfect machine gives you something to start working with right now while you hunt for your dream machine.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 6, 2020)

Well an unexpected update! He finally listed the machine on local classifieds just now. I am going to go look at it tomorrow. What should I look for when it comes to the babbitt bearings? What would be a good way to test wear on them? I don't think I want to try turning a test piece based on the condition of the belt, it's badly frayed. I think I've worked myself into a good position, on eBay I got him to give me an offer of $550, however he does not know that I am the same person as the man on eBay he's been dealing with. He's asking $700 on the classifieds. I feel that if the headstock is in good condition then a fair price would be around $400-$500, any thoughts?


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## matthewsx (May 6, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> Well an unexpected update! He finally listed the machine on local classifieds just now. I am going to go look at it tomorrow. What should I look for when it comes to the babbitt bearings? What would be a good way to test wear on them? I don't think I want to try turning a test piece based on the condition of the belt, it's badly frayed. I think I've worked myself into a good position, on eBay I got him to give me an offer of $550, however he does not know that I am the same person as the man on eBay he's been dealing with. He's asking $700 on the classifieds. I feel that if the headstock is in good condition then a fair price would be around $400-$500, any thoughts?



Here's a thread with some info in the bearings hopefully someone else will chime in here with a definitive procedure. If you can feel play at the chuck they are most likely worn out but does that matter to you?









						Atlas 10F-28 purchase questions?
					

I currently have a Harbor Freight 8 x 12 metal lathe, but need something with a longer bed.  I found an Atlas number in the gear cover is 10f-28.  I haven't looked at it yet, doesn't have a quick changer gear box, has babbit bearing.    The bed length I'm assuming is 48 inches, owner says it's...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




If I was going into this I would realize that probably the machine is going home with me. I'd be prepared to pay up to $500 but not a penny more, I would also be honest with him and let him know it was you on eBay and now that he doesn't have to pay seller fees that's money in his pocket. It's possible that when you tell him the process you've gone through and all the help forum members have been that he will cut you a deal. He's already learned it's not made of gold so maybe being honest and letting him feel like it's going to a good home will help out some.

If he says someone else is coming by with $700 just thank him and walk away, he'll call back when he doesn't get it. But, look around his shop and see if there's anything else worth getting from him. You never know what might come up when you start peeling off Benjamins'....

John


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## Atlas2start (May 6, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Here's a thread with some info in the bearings hopefully someone else will chime in here with a definitive procedure. If you can feel play at the chuck they are most likely worn out but does that matter to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Also, right now, with the Covid19 stuff going on, alot of people are willing to give a lower price than they might otherwise.  This might be even more true if this is how this person makes their living.


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## matthewsx (May 6, 2020)

You can also let him know you'll be spending at least another $300 just to get it where you can find out if it's any good....


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## Aaron_W (May 7, 2020)

$500 seems a reasonable price for that if it won't take a lot of work.

Some things to consider with this lathe. Those Craftsman lathes were based on a 10" Atlas lathe, and other than the swing it has much more in common with a modern 10x22 than its nominal 12x36 size would suggest. You (and he) should be comparing it to a $1500 (Grizzly) to $2500 (Precision Matthews) lathe, not a $3500-4800 12x36 from Grizzly or PM. A modern import 10x22 or 10x30 lathe will have more power (1HP vs 1/2-3/4hp), and a larger spindle bore (1" vs 25/32").

If you bought a new lathe it will generally come with 2 chucks, a 3 jaw and a 4 jaw, a steady rest, a follow rest, a face plate, drill chuck and live or dead center for the tail stock. Looks like you are covered on the 3 jaw and drill chuck, but lacking the rest. Looking at ebay currently there are a couple of steady rests for these lathes asking $175-300, follow rests are priced the same. A 4 jaw chuck will run you $150-200, centers are cheap $20-30, and a face plate $50-100. Many new lathes would also include a quick change tool post for another $150-200.

You don't necessarily need these, but for price comparisons these would be included.

So being generous lets compare to a Precision Matthews 10x30 at $2400 (which does include a QCTP). Lose 50% off the top for being used, so $1200, -$150 for the 4 jaw, -$350 for the steady and follow rests, -$50 for the face plate and drive dog, -$150 for the QCTP = $500.

If we compare to the cheaper Grizzly G0602 10x22 at $1550, he comes out of the deal owing you money.  Actually if you add it all up, it comes out as $225, as the G0602 doesn't come with a QCTP.

Not putting down the lathe, but you have to be realistic about what you are looking at.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 7, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Here's a thread with some info in the bearings hopefully someone else will chime in here with a definitive procedure. If you can feel play at the chuck they are most likely worn out but does that matter to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Noted, I am slightly worried that some wide eyed newbie will pay what he's asking, especially since on KSL we can see ad traffic and I can see that it's had about 250 views and 7 favorites in the five hours since it's gone up. However that doesn't mean I'm going to compete, I don't feel comfortable at a number higher than $500. If someone else does, I will count that as their loss, not mine .


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 7, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> $500 seems a reasonable price for that if it won't take a lot of work.
> 
> Some things to consider with this lathe. Those Craftsman lathes were based on a 10" Atlas lathe, and other than the swing it has much more in common with a modern 10x22 than its nominal 12x36 size would suggest. You (and he) should be comparing it to a $1500 (Grizzly) to $2500 (Precision Matthews) lathe, not a $3500-4800 12x36 from Grizzly or PM. A modern import 10x22 or 10x30 lathe will have more power (1HP vs 1/2-3/4hp), and a larger spindle bore (1" vs 25/32").
> 
> ...


I actually really appreciate this view because my comparison point for a used machine has been the PM line. It doesn't necessarily make sense to me why people believe they can sell their 70+ year old iron for $2000 when a brand new machine with the same feature set and better in many ways comes in at $400 more. Nostalgia I guess. Most of the 9 inch South Bends I see listed locally seem to be priced and sell at over $1500 without much tooling, it just doesn't make sense to me but people want what they want.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 7, 2020)

Well at this point I think the seller may not be worth the trouble... I got in touch with the seller today to discuss meeting time and place and was informed that due to the amount of interest and on someone's advice that the price would be increased to no less than $1,000. I explained that after money invested at that price it really wouldn't be worth it to buy the machine compared to a brand new Grizzly 10x22 and that I wouldn't give more than $500 for it. And that if he really had a buyer for $1,000 then by all means go ahead. The games people play with these machines price wise are absurd, that Grizzly 10x22 is honestly starting to look like a highly appealing option compared to what people are trying to get away with on my local classifieds.

EDIT: After giving him the information and explaining that it came from a forum of individuals dedicated to these machines he told me he would accept a minimum of $700 . Which was the starting negotiation price yesterday. I told him $500 max and to get in touch if he changes his mind.


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## matthewsx (May 7, 2020)

Yeah, anyone who lists something at one price then decides to raise it isn't somebody I would want to deal with, in normal business that's called bait and switch and it's illegal.

At the end of the day you will be much better off waiting and buying a better machine. 

My first lathe, if you can call it that, was one of the cheap 3 in 1 machines from China. I didn't have this group to consult and I really didn't know anything about machining, I just needed something to build and modify parts for my karting business. It turned out to be nothing but frustration but fortunately I later found a Seneca Falls Star lathe on Craigslist for $300 and sold the Chinese machine for a loss. It's not that great of a lathe but it more than paid for itself doing engine rebuilds for a few years. Last year I fixed it up with a QCTP, 3 phase motor, and a bunch of other stuff.

In retrospect I should have sold it and bought a newer, better lathe but experience is a merciless teacher. I will probably be able to sell the Star for close to what I have into it should I want to but I'll hang onto it for now.

So, save your pennies. Do more research and reach out to folks who might know where something nice is. As others have mentioned, if you have the room, bigger lathes often go cheap but you will have to know how to evaluate something that's spent it's life making parts in a working shop or factory. 

If you want a hobby sized machine either hold out for something used that has been lovingly refurbished by another hobbyist or plan on buying new unless you come across that $300 deal.

John


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## Aaron_W (May 7, 2020)

If this was an in service lathe coming out of someone's shop, with the basic tooling I listed it could be a reasonable deal at $1000, but as it sits you have work in front of you. If the seller won't negotiate a more realistic price, then probably not worth the effort. 

The 9 and 10" Grizzly lathes have their short comings, but they are a good value and in my opinion not a bad place to start, even if you eventually want to go bigger. The PM lathes are better, but at their price their 10x22/30 is probably better suited to someone who wants that size lathe longer term.


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## ChandlerJPerry (May 7, 2020)

Well as if by magic within minutes of things falling through with the seller, this beauty showed up and I snapped it up. A Craftsman 618 with two four jaws, a Bison three jaw, plenty of cutters, a full set of change gears, quick change tool post, and last but not least a live and dead center from the magnanimous York, who lives in my area . I paid $600 for the lot, he even threw in the table and steel plate it was mounted on. I feel like I got a much better deal than whatever I would have been dealing with on the 12". It may be smaller but I think it will serve me well until I can upgrade to something more substantial.


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## DavidR8 (May 7, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> Well as if by magic within minutes of things falling through with the seller, this beauty showed up and I snapped it up. A Craftsman 618 with two four jaws, a Bison three jaw, plenty of cutters, a full set of change gears, quick change tool post, and last but not least a live and dead center from the magnanimous York, who lives in my area . I paid $600 for the lot, he even threw in the table and steel plate it was mounted on. I feel like I got a much better deal than whatever I would have been dealing with on the 12". It may be smaller but I think it will serve me well until I can upgrade to something more substantial.


Well done!


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## Aaron_W (May 7, 2020)

It might be smaller, but that is the kind of thing you really want to get if you want to make stuff instead of fixing the lathe. It looks like it has been used recently, not shoved in a dark corner, and neglected with half the tooling gone lost over time.

Not a bad price either, if you get to a point where you want to go bigger you shouldn't have trouble getting your money back.


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## matthewsx (May 7, 2020)

ChandlerJPerry said:


> Well as if by magic within minutes of things falling through with the seller, this beauty showed up and I snapped it up. A Craftsman 618 with two four jaws, a Bison three jaw, plenty of cutters, a full set of change gears, quick change tool post, and last but not least a live and dead center from the magnanimous York, who lives in my area . I paid $600 for the lot, he even threw in the table and steel plate it was mounted on. I feel like I got a much better deal than whatever I would have been dealing with on the 12". It may be smaller but I think it will serve me well until I can upgrade to something more substantial.



Cool,




You got a lot more stuff with yours than I did with mine, and you won't have to do as much work as I did either.









						Just added a 101.21200 to my shop out west
					

I've been suffering lathe withdrawals since my Seneca Falls Star 9" is 2000 miles away. I found this little guy on Craigslist, not the upgrade I've been hoping for but it should keep me busy for a little while.     She's rusty but the spindle turns smooth so hopefully just a clean-up and paint...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




John


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## wa5cab (May 8, 2020)

*@ChandlerJPerry,*

To first correct your statement just above that you had found and bought a Craftsman version of the Atlas 618, you didn't actually.  The machine that you bought is a 101.21200 which is the same except for badge as the Atlas 3950.  The Craftsman equivalent to the Atlas 618 is the 101.21400, built from 1957 until 1972.  While all four models are 6x18's, only the Atlas 618 can properly be referred to as a 618 (the Model Number).  It was in production from 1937 until 1972 and in my opinion was probably, all things considered, the best 6" lathe ever built.  It's only real shortcoming was that Atlas never built and sold a QCGB for it.

To correct someone else's error back up this thread, "10F-28" is an Atlas part number, not a model number.  Specifically, 10F-28 is the casting number and the finish-machined part number of the change gear guard on the left end of the headstock on all Atlas 10F lathes except for  the Pick-O-Matic and QC models.  The "28" in the part number has nothing to do with bed length.  It just happened to be the next available number back around 1931 when the original Atlas 9" was in the design phase and someone was assigning part numbers for it.  The part number assigned that day was 9-28.


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## ARC-170 (May 8, 2020)

Sounds like walking away was the right thing to do. That seller seemed confused, or at the very least was probably getting conflicting advice and didn't really know what do to. Looks like you got a pretty sweet machine because you waited, so enjoy!

Let us know if the seller of lathe #1 calls back and what he says.

For comparison (for anyone following this thread who's thinking of buying a lathe), I paid $400 for a similar lathe in better shape on a stand that I sold for $350. I also bought a parts machine (same lathe model) for $350 that had no motor or tooling that was in about the same shape as lathe #1. I've sold off most of the parts I didn't use and made all my money back. I bought both of these off CL in the Los Angles area.


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