# At the crossroads of South bend and Import lathes



## newman (Feb 26, 2017)

Hi All. Newbie here and a long time lurker. I have had an interest in lathes for sometime now and have accumulated 2 south bend 9A lathes. Both are not without issues, and that is not even getting into back lash and tolerance issues. They both need at least cleaning and new wicks. One is missing this part and the other has a broken that part. So my question to the people who have knowledge in this area: Should I save myself the time of redoing these lathe (do enjoy this part of it, love the old iron) and sell them both and buy a lathe from say Grizzley or somone else? I am a basic, very new hobbyist, probably never do any precision work and wonder if I should just be making chips instead of cleaning and painting. Any guidance would be helpful. Thanks Rick


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## francist (Feb 26, 2017)

Well, buying a new lathe would certainly get you into the "now" part of the hobby, but for some that's not necessarily the best part of the hobby. For some the cleaning and painting, the seeing of potential and trying to reach it, the challenge of bringing something not just "to" life but "back to life" is the most enjoyable part. And that's ok.

I look around this forum and see some truly stunning work being produced by guys that have way more skills and talent than I ever will. And way more ideas too -- you need the great ideas in order to make those wonderful things in the first place. Me, I'm a copier. It's very un-glamorous and largely un-inspiring. But I'm really, really good at it!

Your question is one that I suspect many of us ask ourselves. I look around and see what seems like "everyone" buying a new lathe or a new mill. Maybe I should too and then I can just get on with it. But get on with what? Maybe I'm already getting on with what I'm supposed to be getting on with -- that's ok, right?

It's totally ok. Who says you're supposed to be doing something else, and what do they know anyways! If you want to make chips right now then buy yourself a new lathe and make stuff. But if you're still hankering after the idea of fixing up those old Southbends and seeing if they'll work, then go for it. It's your hobby, nobody else's.

-frank


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## Bob Korves (Feb 26, 2017)

I see it as six of one, half a dozen of the other.  Old American lathes often need considerable work to make them correct.  New Chinese lathes often need work to make them correct.  Price and whatever makes you happiest in the end, I guess is my answer.


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## strantor (Feb 26, 2017)

If I had no lathe and was planning to buy one, then I would be asking the question whether to go with an old southbend or a new import.

But if I had two southbends sitting in my garage there would be no question to ask.


My plan would be to get one of them running using parts from the other (where possible) and then use the running one to make up the missing parts so you have 2 good lathes. Then sell one (or not). It would be a great first project.


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## markba633csi (Feb 26, 2017)

I agree with Strantor,  make one good one out of the two.  Hell, even a beat to sh** South Bend can still make good parts.  Just adjust your technique a little. And are you making NASA parts or what? Plus the 9A has power cross feed.  No brainer for me- keep the SBs.  I'd put a variable speed motor on it though if it was mine. 
Mark S.
ps South Bend is a great lathe to learn on- you'll be spoiled for anything else.  Most every school shop in the country had 'em, once upon a time.


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## 428Bird (Feb 26, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> I agree with Strantor,  make one good one out of the two.  Hell, even a beat to sh** South Bend can still make good parts.  Just adjust your technique a little. And are you making NASA parts or what? Plus the 9A has power cross feed.  No brainer for me- keep the SBs.  I'd put a variable speed motor on it though if it was mine.
> Mark S.
> ps South Bend is a great lathe to learn on- you'll be spoiled for anything else.  Most every school shop in the country had 'em, once upon a time.


I rebuilt an early 60s South Bend 13 a few years back and the knowledge gained during that project was well worth the effort. Nothing will educate you more on the inner workings of your machine than taking it down to the last bolt. 

Once you reassemble your machine from a pile of components and start making good parts nothing can describe that feeling of accomplishment. 

Britt Bettell

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 using Tapatalk.


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## cvairwerks (Feb 27, 2017)

The South Bends are known quantities and parts can be found, though nor always easy or inexpensively.  Buying a new, offshore made machine is like buying a used car...it may be a steal, or it may be a clunker, unless you are buying big iron.


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## Rd2nowr (Feb 28, 2017)

Hi, Newman. I just finished with my first restoration of a 1937 SB 9a and I can say without hesitation, I'd do it all over again! I am a Hobby Woodworker and got into the hobby mostly for woodturning bowls. I bought an old Craftsman scroll saw made by King-Sealy and that started me down the slippery slope. I now have a 1957 Delta Unisaw, 1941 Delta Jointer, 1962 Rockwell/Delta Bandsaw and a 1968 Rockwell 105 Deluxe Radial arm saw. I jumped on a chance to buy the SB, for the love of restoring these old American made machines not because they are cheaper in price than the ones made offshore, but because they were produced to a higher standard. I would suggest to restore one using the parts from both and sell the other to help off-set your costs. Either way, you'll learn so much more of your machine by tearing it down and cleaning and re-assembling, than by just reading about it. Tim


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## newman (Feb 28, 2017)

Thanks to all for the input. I do enjoy the process of learning the in and outs of the old pieces of machinery. I was leaning toward getting one up and running and then looking to complete the other and sell it to further go down the rabbit hole of metal working. Seems as thou many of you believe in trying to keep these old machines going and that was just what I needed to keep me going. Thanks


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## ThunderDog (Mar 2, 2017)

I say go with what you have right now.  I think sometimes we see others make these amazing things and then start thinking that we can't do X because we don't own Y.  My first lathe, which is my current lathe had/has a broken bracket on the head stock.  I worked the problem until I got a fix.  Is it pretty, nope but it works.
I know the feeling of wishing it was done, but try to let every challenge be a learning opportunity.  I agree with others, a complete teardown let's you fully understand how your machine functions.  Plus, that feeling of accomplishment is huge when you see your shiny cleaned up machine.

Either way, best of luck in all that you do.


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## umahunter (Mar 2, 2017)

Look into the grizzly  g0602 I love mine there's also plenty of  documented mods and impovements on several websites and on youtube


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## Ken from ontario (Mar 2, 2017)

This southbend lathe was sold under my nose for $1500, whoever owned it must have taken good care of it to ask so much but it is afterall in Canadian $, if or I'd better say when I look to buy a lathe, I'd fisrt look for something like the one In the picture before going for the imports but I've seen a few imports (new ones)and they have improved substantially compare to the older models which means either way you'll be alright:
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/p...-9/1241715141?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true


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## Glenn Brooks (Mar 3, 2017)

Ken,  that looked like a great lathe to get started.  Very clean, but more importantly, the guy stated in excellent condition.  Having just gone through refurbishing three lathes, I have to say, holding out for a lathe in very good condition is absolutely at the top of my list.   

  if I were to do it over I would either buy a new import, or rigorously hold out for that once a year used lathe in truly  good condition.  They are out there, but there are may more that are not- and more than a few that are promised in excellent shape, but are not.  In fact, I've sort of concluded, the more jolly the seller, the worse off is his lathe. 

Which brings me to holding tolerance - what you said above about not worrying to much about making precision parts.  My guess is that what you will find out, and come to appreciate,  after getting into the hobby, is that metal working is all about making precision parts.  The reason is: Stuff must fit together to work.  If not made to reasonable tolerance - usually a few thou or less for mating surfaces - you really will be wasting your time. And will be frustrated by making parts that don't fit together.   For example, a 1"  axle needs  an interference fit less than a thou on a 4" live steam railroad rail car wheel to adhere to the axle. To loose, it will simply fall off.  So  iam sure you will find a need to hold parts to .001" .  Which is not a big deal with decent  equipment and a bit of experience learning.  It's actually very satisfying to achieve this level of work. 

I guess for me, being able to hold a thou tolerance when making parts is vitally important.  New imports and many used  lathes will do that.  But lathes that are run out ... worn beyond their useful life... are nothing but Trouble. Grief,  Trouble, aggravation, wasted time and lost money.  If your two lathes have decent ways and can hold a .001" when turning down round stock - fix em up and have fun!  If not, pack em out the door and  find a replacement  that holds tolerance.  You will be a happy camper out in your shop for ever after!

Glenn


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## Ken from ontario (Mar 3, 2017)

Glenn Brooks said:


> Ken,  that looked like a great lathe to get started.  Very clean, but more importantly, the guy stated in excellent condition.  Having just gone through refurbishing three lathes, I have to say, holding out for a lathe in very good condition is absolutely at the top of my list.
> 
> 
> Which brings me to holding tolerance -* what you said above about not worrying to much about making precision parts.*  My guess is that what you will find out, and come to appreciate,  after getting into the hobby, is that metal working is all about making precision parts.  The reason is: Stuff must fit together to work.  If not made to reasonable tolerance - usually a few thou or less for mating surfaces - you really will be wasting your time. And will be frustrated by making parts that don't fit together.   For example, a 1"  axle needs  an interference fit less than a thou on a 4" live steam railroad rail car wheel to adhere to the axle. To loose, it will simply fall off.  So  iam sure you will find a need to hold parts to .001" .  Which is not a big deal with decent  equipment and a bit of experience learning.  It's actually very satisfying to achieve this level of work.
> ...


Glen, I agree with the point you made about metalworking is all about making precision parts, I guess you were quoting the OP, Rick.


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## MozamPete (Mar 3, 2017)

428Bird said:


> ... the knowledge gained during that project was well worth the effort. Nothing will educate you more on the inner workings of your machine than taking it down to the last bolt.



Totally agree, when I brought my mill I dismantled it at the previous owners (with his help) to load it in pieces into my pickup for transport.  When I got it home I thought 'well as it is in pieces already' and stripped it even further to check everything out, give it a clean and a fresh coat of paint,  I then reassembled it.  I now know that machine inside out which helps me use it.

So I'm with Strantor, as you have them already build up one machine from the best parts of both.  Personally I would just keep the leftovers for spares - you do make mistakes while learning and occasionally that unfortunately result in damage so having them on hand is a nice backup.  You can always sell them off in the future once you feel you have more experience and the risk is reduced.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 3, 2017)

Good advice from Glenn.  I bought my lathe in essentially new condition, might have had 15 minutes of light use on it, at about a 40% discount from the new price when on sale.  I picked it up locally.  It had no issues but had sat around for 4-5 years, so the cleanup entailed some additional grime beyond the cosmoline that was still on 80% of the bare metal.  And it is a Chinese machine, so everything needed to be aligned and checked for tightness and the molasses looking oil in the three gearboxes changed.  Still, it was new, undamaged, and relatively cheap.  I see people who pick up old lathes with extensive visual damage and wear, and then want to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  They put a lot of work and a lot of money in those machines and still have issues with wear and damaged parts even after all the work and money is invested.  Truly rare and antique lathes are certainly exceptions for people who love rare old iron for itself, not so much what it can make for them.  Most South Bend, Atlas, Logan and other common lathes are plentiful and are simply not in that category.  They are often just worn, damaged, neglected, and abused.  They also often can not do the same class of work that more modern high speed lathes can do.  It is nice to be able to set a lathe in place and just use it as is, perhaps with just a quick wipe down to get the finger prints off of it...  Dialing it in for accuracy can continue while it is also making parts.


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## Glenn Brooks (Mar 3, 2017)

Ken,  OOOOPS.  Yes, I was responding to the OP's first post.  Confusion reigns with grayhair sometimes!!

Rick,  my apologies for not paying proper attention.  BTW, Please let us know what direction you decide to head.  
Also remember the golden rule:  no pictures, it didn't happen! Be great to see a couple of photos of the two existing machines you have available.  There are a number of threads here and there about what to look for re: lathe condition.  Also don't forget to watch for a nice little milling machine.  I have three - an old grizzly round column bench mill, Burke # 4 horizontal, and a van Norman 12 universal awaiting rebuild.  Indispensable addition for making stuff.

Regards
Glenn


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## markba633csi (Mar 3, 2017)

That one that Ken showed is actually a Standard Modern.  Nice one too.
Mark S.


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## n7gtb (Mar 4, 2017)

Hi Rick,

I'm a 'newbie' (and also lurker here too!), but picked up a South Bend heavy 10 lathe about two years back.  It's my first lathe, and even with the small amount that I've used it; I now wish I had a second!  In my case I did my homework far in advance of purchasing.  When I found my lathe, I made certain to measure play in the spindle, run the motor (prior owner had grossly mis-wired it...I'm lucky to be alive!), and generally work all the bits and pieces.  To date, I've built a spindle taper adapter that reduces to a smaller Morris Taper, a threaded lathe chuck adapter for a DIY indexing head, and most recently an R8 end mill holder for my mill-drill (it ain't pretty, but it works great).  

So even though my lathe is from the mid 1950's, it's still very capable (in the right hands) of producing accurate parts.  So far, all I've done is to clean up the exterior and lube, lube, lube.  Someday I'll get brave and tear it down, do a proper cleanup, maybe make a couple of improvements and re-assemble and adjust.  

For what it's worth, here's my newbie advice: build up one of the two SB's that you have (or both if you can), and start making chips! Eventually your lathe will teach you enough to amaze yourself what you can actually do...  

Good luck!
-Vern  

p.s., yes, I know I can buy R8 holders for less than $10 each from China, but I figure I'll learn way more making my own tooling.


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## fradish (Mar 4, 2017)

I'm in a different position from the OP.  I have a 1939 South Bend 9C and recently bought a PM1228.
With the 9C you have to deal with change gears so I rarely used it to cut threads.

Pluses with the new lathe include a much larger through bore (1 1/2"), a 2 hp variable speed motor,
D1-4 cam lock chuck (no threaded chuck to worry about spinning off when you go in reverse), and 
even the blocky carriage and cross slide are easier to mount mag bases for indicators than the South 
Bends curvier castings.  I also like the feed rod that is separate from the feed screw.  I can get really 
fine feeds very easily.

That being said, had I had a 9a, I would have been less inclined to upgrade.  I really like my South Bend,
and will never get rid of it because it was my Dad's.  It is fun to work on a tool that is that old and still 
performs as well as it does...


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## Downunder Bob (Mar 5, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> I see it as six of one, half a dozen of the other.  Old American lathes often need considerable work to make them correct.  New Chinese lathes often need work to make them correct.  Price and whatever makes you happiest in the end, I guess is my answer.



I'd be very reluctant to put my money into a chinese machine until they improve their game. I would much prefer to spend twice the price on  a Taiwanese machine and get one that can be relied on. So far I have bought one chinese heap of crap, (never again) and two quite good Taiwanese machines, about 30 - 50% dearer than similar spec chinese, but worlds apart. They work straight up, so far have not had to repair anything, they are quite well made, and have exceeded my expectations on performance.


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## Surprman (Mar 5, 2017)

Hi Rick,

I bought a Chinese desktop mill (G0619) fro Grizzy.  I took it apart (mostly) to prepare it before I used it.  It was worthwhile as I got to see the workmanship.  Shortly thereafter I got a 1941 SB 9C.  I took that thing down to the last bolt.  There was no comparison in the level of quality in the SB compared to my mill.  Would I like all the bells and whistles that come with a newer Chinese  lathe?  Sure,  but with the SB I feel more confident that I will be able to maintain the tool with minimal effort.  (I dread the day that something happens to the motor/controller of my mill).  My lathe, not so much- I can just go out and get a whole new motor.

Rick


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## richl (Mar 5, 2017)

Rebuilding the south bend lathes will give you experience with rebuilding equipment. If you find that using them you are still craving something more modern, they have a better resell value as working machines. Help to make the next machine a bit more affordable
I'm using an enco 13x40 that I have been using and tweaking since it was given to me a few years back. Some may rather use the time to make stuff, and I can see that point. I've learned a ton rebuilding the lathe I have.
I can afford to get something bigger, stronger, faster... but this one makes stuff pretty well, it ain't perfect, but I figure it can do a better job holding a thousandth than I can 

Good luck no matter which way you go!
Rich


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## Rustrp (Mar 8, 2017)

I may as well put my heart out here on this one. First, I agree with all who recommend the refurbish and overhaul of the two Southbends you have. Secondly, regarding my heart and the trades that have been decimated by cheap labor, I'm not going to knock a specific country but the skills required to produce a quality product isn't available where these products (cheap Asian imports) are made. I'm not questioning intelligence because it's all about training. I doubt seriously if anyone can get the hours out of a cheap import even close to what the Southbend has.

I came to this site looking for information on the DRO for my recently acquired Bridgeport mill. I have an old Lodge & Shipley lathe (along with a Machinist Handbook with a 1936 copyright) given to me by my father-in law, who I probably insulted when I asked him if he bought it new. Hell I didn't know, this was 30+ years ago and he was 80 at the time. I got; "Oh no, this thing was old when I got it." He was looking at me as if I was nuts. I was a newbie, inexperienced but I will share his comment to me; "There are machinists who can produce parts on this to .001" and those who can't produce parts to .010."

I don't think you're into producing production part runs. I'm not sure what the condition of your lathes are, and there are folks in every trade who will abuse any piece of equipment, so refurbishing an abused piece of equipment can be more difficult than a worn piece.  Determine which pieces need to be replaced. Are the ways worn so badly that you can't turn a decent part. etc. Understanding lead screw slack/play/slop along with crossslide screw wear is important and understanding this and how it works is the key. Every piece of equipment made has it's roots in the lathe. Anything produced on a mill can be produced on a lathe, with speed being the only difference. Are you in a hurry to make chips?

Remember, the first lathe was two forked sticks stuck in the ground supporting the much straighter branch that was turned to produce a much straighter/accurate part, and so on. I guess this is a good segue into my lathe that has a motor support frame mounted to the backside to drive the transmission belts which were originally powered by a lineshaft. As my father-in-law explained the working of the line shaft driven by a natural gas (plentiful in Los Angeles at the time) driven engine which was usually outside the shop, tended by the shop boy who's job (one of) was to make sure the water didn't boil out of the reservoir cast into the top of the one-lunger engine.  His comments seemed to always lead with, "You know." I would respond with, "No, I don't know,"  which leads me to my close. I was taught by craftsmen, those who were willing to teach the best. I'm a self-employed journeyman sheetmetal worker, certified welder,  who will always be an apprentice to some degree because "I don't know."

Thanks,
Russ

PS. I will post photos of the lathe soon and I'm still looking for a date manufactured.


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## Rustrp (Mar 8, 2017)

Surprman said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> I bought a Chinese desktop mill (G0619) fro Grizzy.  I took it apart (mostly) to prepare it before I used it.  It was worthwhile as I got to see the workmanship.  Shortly thereafter I got a 1942 SB 9C.  I took that thing down to the last bolt.  There was no comparison in the level of quality in the SB compared to my mill.  Would I like all the bells and whistles that come with a newer Chinese  lathe?  Sure,  but with the SB I feel more confident that I will be able to maintain the tool with minimal effort.  (I dread the day that something happens to the motor/controller of my mill).  My lathe, not so much- I can just go out and get a whole new motor.
> 
> Rick


I agree with your bells and whistles comment. Few of us will work extra hours daily, with no compensation, and the same goes when we purchase a product with all the accessories at no extra monetary cost.


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