# What machine business have you operated?



## Jake2465 (Jul 27, 2018)

I am curious to see what folks have done / are doing for supplemental or full income with their equipment and skills . The area I live in (Dayton Ohio) has around 140,000 residents and somewhere close to 60 machine shops listed in the phone book. That's just the phone book, so I imagine that there are a fair bit more than 60 shops actually conducting business in some form or another. 
I have dabbled with the idea of starting a hobby business, but I think I would rather make it product based instead of service based. I am under the impression that most people outside the machine tool world don't have an understanding of why custom made parts should cost more than 50 bucks to produce. Perhaps that's not entirely accurate.
So, I am currently settled with the idea that if I decide to start a hobby business, then I should do a product and try for e commerce so I am not trying to compete with every other shop in the city. 

I would be interested to hear what members have done in the past and decisions that brought them to run a business the way they have .


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## Firestopper (Jul 27, 2018)

I've been providing custom metal fabrication, welding services since 1997 and added machining  in 2001, I have also maintained a full-time career in public safety. That said, many of my customers are return customers and often will refer new customers.  I also manufacture/sell a patented product for the past 15+ years. I only advertise my patented product, all else is word of mouth.


Reasons;
I was frustrated often on the long wait times, failed timelines and lack of quality many machine shops in Tucson offered.  As for fabrication work, I got tired of making chump change working for someone else with no control of my own destiny. As far as the public safety career, its always in demand and rewarding, the bonus, it comes with a pension. 
Last word of advise, invest in your retirement, no one will take better care of you than *YOU*.

These days I only take on work that puts a smile on my face in the end. 
If one quits then it on them....simple.
Perseverance_* always *_prevails!

Turn and burn,
Paco


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## JimDawson (Jul 27, 2018)

Offering general machine shop services is a tough way to try to make money, especially just starting out.  Most people that I know started out by providing a niche service to a local manufacturer and then branched out as market conditions allowed.  Others started out with a product and the machine shop was there to facilitate the manufacture of that product.

I have gone both ways over the last 50 years.  Up until recently my machines were there to facilitate building custom automated machines for a wide range of customers and doing some tool & die and general repair work for others, and in the last few years primarily to just justify the shop's existence and support my tool habit  .  When my son retired from his day job, we kind of switched over to a product based operation and he purchased the Haas mill and Hardinge CNC lathe that were required for the operation.  We are also making parts for a couple other manufactures and will probably expand that in the future depending on the amount of open machine time we have.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 27, 2018)

Interesting observations. 

For the immediate future, I plan to continue college and finish out with an aerospace engineers degree. That is my reaction to providing a way to make a stable living with room for pension and so on. 

I don't want to forget about my machines though as I do like to make things. Naturally, the idea of making stuff on the side and getting some extra cash for play money or vacations sounds like a fun thing to do. 

I believe I have a fear of living a stagnant life with the degree I am getting. It may pay good enough to base a life off of, but the thought of permanence in a cubicle sounds painful . And worse yet, if I ask some of those guys what they do for fun, I am concerned may tell me that they find enjoyment off of playing board games or taking pictures of squirrels and starlings at the local park or something like that.


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## benmychree (Jul 27, 2018)

I started my shop in 1973, and ran it until I sold the business about 7 years ago; I had two other shops in town, and did mostly maintainance work and making parts for bottling machines; rent was cheap, and that paid the bills; occasionally a customer would bring in something that was no longer made or in need of improvement; sometimes I'd make more of the item and have it on hand for sale as a product, as time passed more of these items were invented and made in quantity and we made a simple home grown catalog and mailed them out to all the local wineries.  By far, the products made much more profit than doing the one off work.  I never patented anything, just sold the products for a reasonable amount of money so that others were not tempted to rip them off, and we wholesaled the products to other sellers.  The shop is still doing business and seemingly thriving, having developed more new products for the wine industry.  I did this with all conventional machines, but the new owner had a CNC lathe and mill, which are used on the old and new products.


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## ChrisAttebery (Jul 27, 2018)

Over the last 20 years I have manufactured parts for RC boats, cars and planes and high power rocketry. Cars was a pretty large market and I sold to people in about 70 countries. I got out or radio control about 5 years ago and got back into high power rocketry. I have a small product line and it pays for my own hobbies and tool purchases. Two years ago a friend saw some of the work I was doing for me personal projects and asked if I'd like to design and prototype products for his company. That has worked out well and he keeps me busy.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 27, 2018)

ChrisAttebery said:


> Over the last 20 years I have manufactured parts for RC boats, cars and planes and high power rocketry. Cars was a pretty large market and I sold to people in about 70 countries. I got out or radio control about 5 years ago and got back into high power rocketry. I have a small product line and it pays for my own hobbies and tool purchases. Two years ago a friend saw some of the work I was doing for me personal projects and asked if I'd like to design and prototype products for his company. That has worked out well and he keeps me busy.



Sounds like it has been a fun time for you . When I was a little younger, I used to fly planes and helicopters around on a weekly basis. Doing something just for the enjoyment is great.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 27, 2018)

benmychree said:


> I started my shop in 1973, and ran it until I sold the business about 7 years ago; I had two other shops in town, and did mostly maintainance work and making parts for bottling machines; rent was cheap, and that paid the bills; occasionally a customer would bring in something that was no longer made or in need of improvement; sometimes I'd make more of the item and have it on hand for sale as a product, as time passed more of these items were invented and made in quantity and we made a simple home grown catalog and mailed them out to all the local wineries.  By far, the products made much more profit than doing the one off work.  I never patented anything, just sold the products for a reasonable amount of money so that others were not tempted to rip them off, and we wholesaled the products to other sellers.  The shop is still doing business and seemingly thriving, having developed more new products for the wine industry.  I did this with all conventional machines, but the new owner had a CNC lathe and mill, which are used on the old and new products.



That is an interesting business to be in. I take it that the machines that are used in bottling processes tend to be high maintenance from all the production?


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## Jake2465 (Jul 27, 2018)

JimDawson said:


> Offering general machine shop services is a tough way to try to make money, especially just starting out. Most people that I know started out by providing a niche service to a local manufacturer and then branched out as market conditions allowed. Others started out with a product and the machine shop was there to facilitate the manufacture of that product.



One thing I believe is nice with producing your own product is that you are the one that can set your tolerances which is a big plus. Where I live, opening up a tiny general machine shop and hoping for profit would probably give chances in the slim to none range, and slim left the building.

Interestingly enough, most of the shops I have seen are small operations which leads me to believe that they are either all making excellent use of the minimal square footage of their buildings, or they are not getting enough work to expand.


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## [X]Outlaw (Jul 27, 2018)

I got into machining as a direct result of model aviation. There was a motor mount I designed that converted a particular model heli from gasoline powered to electric. None of the local machine shops could have manufactured it for me so I started researching how to do it myself. I decided to take the plunge and got a Taig CNC mill. It took me a few months to get up to speed on everything but eventually got my mount made.

That first part started my little side business about 7 years ago. I made quite a bit of those mounts for guys all over the world. Then a buddy of mine who also flies models threw me a job that other shops turned down, a motor coupler for an operating theater bed. Slowly by word of mouth I was getting request to make parts for all kinds of stuff. 

I do pick and choose the jobs I take, I tend to turn down the more boring stuff and focus more on those that give me a challenge.

Chevy


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## JimDawson (Jul 27, 2018)

Jake2465 said:


> Interestingly enough, most of the shops I have seen are small operations which leads me to believe that they either all making excellent use of the minimal square footage of their buildings, or they are not getting enough work to expand.




Or they don't want to expand.    Which is my case.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 27, 2018)

[X]Outlaw said:


> I got into machining as a direct result of model aviation. There was a motor mount I designed that converted a particular model heli from gasoline powered to electric. None of the local machine shops could have manufactured it for me so I started researching how to do it myself. I decided to take the plunge and got a Taig CNC mill. It took me a few months to get up to speed on everything but eventually got my mount made.
> 
> That first part started my little side business about 7 years ago. I made quite a bit of those mounts for guys all over the world. Then a buddy of mine who also flies models threw me a job that other shops turned down, a motor coupler for an operating theater bed. Slowly by word of mouth I was getting request to make parts for all kinds of stuff.
> 
> ...



That's really neat! Have you ever made rotor heads for them?

I did a little bit of research a while back into the market viability of model hobbies. From what I saw, it does seem to indicate that success is higher if a specific niche is chosen because the big players have price points that are practically impossible to compete with. Web sides such as HobbyKing have probably forced many hobby themed businesses out of the scene. Actually, I heard that TowerHobbies declared bankruptcy this year and sold to another company .

So, I guess trying to be everything to everyone is not a good idea.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 27, 2018)

JimDawson said:


> Most people that I know started out by providing a niche service to a local manufacturer



That seems like the hot ticket .


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 27, 2018)

I retired from the Natural Gas Compressor industry in ought ought, spent almost 15 yeas wishing I had something to do. My eldest son built up a business in model flying (rubber band  powered) and bought a propeller manufactury.  Siince he was gainfully employed I got the job of making things for him. It started out making propellers and necessary hardware, prop shafts, bushings, thrust bearings, (5/16 diameter, three steel balls .080, one .040 disc of aluminum with 4 holes in it and two steel flat washers.) and a couple other items, hinges for the folding props, etc.  Since then we've taken on making 10 to 0ne winders, 8 and 30 ounce-inch torque meters and balsa slitters.  With the machinery I have, I've started contracting for small machine parts, not enough yet to eat better, but I'm busy doing what I enjoy.


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## [X]Outlaw (Jul 27, 2018)

Jake2465 said:


> That's really neat! Have you ever made rotor heads for them?
> 
> I did a little bit of research a while back into the market viability of model hobbies. From what I saw, it does seem to indicate that success is higher if a specific niche is chosen because the big players have price points that are practically impossible to compete with. Web sides such as HobbyKing have probably forced many hobby themed businesses out of the scene. Actually, I heard that TowerHobbies declared bankruptcy this year and sold to another company .
> 
> So, I guess trying to be everything to everyone is not a good idea.



Never attempted a rotor head mainly because most stock rotor heads perform just fine and in the event you crash a new head is way cheaper than I would charge to make one.

I usually make parts (not limited to models) that are :

Hard to find
My own designs
Prototypes of other people designs
Work other shops turn down due to complexity

It is defiantly better to find a niche market than to try to be everything to everyone. Sad to see that Tower filed for bankruptcy. In the last few years a good bit of RC companies closed down. I used to fly JR helis exclusively and they closed down this year, Miniature Aircraft USA closed a few years ago and has now been bought over by a German company, HeliHobby closed a while back, brick and mortar hobby stores are almost non existent and hardly anyone learns the skill of building their own models anymore, its all RTF. Multicopters have taken a huge chunk of the traditional Airplane and heli market mainly because of how cheap and easy to fly they are.

Once upon a time I considered opening a hobby store but the profit margins are just too slim, especially if you have to compete with the likes of HobbyKing.

Chevy


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## Jake2465 (Jul 27, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> I retired from the Natural Gas Compressor industry in ought ought, spent almost 15 yeas wishing I had something to do. My eldest son built up a business in model flying (rubber band  powered) and bought a propeller manufactury.  Siince he was gainfully employed I got the job of making things for him. It started out making propellers and necessary hardware, prop shafts, bushings, thrust bearings, (5/16 diameter, three steel balls .080, one .040 disc of aluminum with 4 holes in it and two steel flat washers.) and a couple other items, hinges for the folding props, etc.  Since then we've taken on making 10 to 0ne winders, 8 and 30 ounce-inch torque meters and balsa slitters.  With the machinery I have, I've started contracting for small machine parts, not enough yet to eat better, but I'm busy doing what I enjoy.





[X]Outlaw said:


> Never attempted a rotor head mainly because most stock rotor heads perform just fine and in the event you crash a new head is way cheaper than I would charge to make one.
> 
> I usually make parts (not limited to models) that are :
> 
> ...



My first helicopter was a Lite Machines 110, and then a Venture CP. After that, it was a Raptor 30v2. I don't know if anyone still flies those Raptors anymore, lol.

Seems that it is critical for someone to strategically position himself in a market with so many outside threats taking the market away. I think that would also indicate that there is no such thing as customer loyalty. Whoever puts it out the cheapest wins seems to be the flavor of this era.

I will never give into a quad copter. I like my single rotor head machines.


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## P. Waller (Jul 27, 2018)

Do not open on Saturdays, this is when the homeowners and hobbyists are out and about. If the locals know you are open you will get a never ending stream of broken bicycle parts, broken $19.00 beach chairs, door handles, broken wrought and cast iron patio furniture, kitchen appliance parts, truck ladder racks, car roof top kayak and bicycle racks, home plumbing fixtures, fireplace grates and guards, lawn sprinklers, lawn mowers, floor lamps, reclining chairs, BBQ grills, ceiling fans, floor fans, garage door opener components and so on, most all of these people want you to make a part to repair something that they bought simply for it's low price, you can not do so. Just Say No

Then the dreaded hobbyists begin to show up, the local classic (not wealthy) muscle car guys are the worst of this lot, they will expect you to share their own love of 1971 Chevy Camaros, they will want a new alternator bracket made for instance and will go stark raving mad when you tell them that it will cost in excess of $500.00 and tell you that GM sold them for $14.95 when in production 50 years ago.

Then the motorcycle types turn up, most of the young ones spend a good deal of time on the internet and know all about how factory racing motorcycles are made (-: They will ask for a price on a part using all of the advertising key words used in the hobby world, Aircraft Grade Aluminum, CNC Machined, Hard Anodized a certain color, a generous radius in all corners for appearance only, most of these people also have no disposable income.

The same applies to boat owners, cyclists and RC modelers whether it is cars, boats, rockets, planes or robot vacuum cleaners. If indeed you can become well known in one of the hobby industries you may make some cash, this is tough sledding however.

If you can design and produce a proprietary product that people will actually buy in sufficient numbers to make a profit have at it


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## MarkM (Jul 27, 2018)

I am trying to do this with a four year plan.  No where near ready but moving forward.  Where I am there is no production. It s all maintenance and repair.   I realize I need something to be steady so I am doing it with a sharpening business along side of it.  Doing knives for restaurants, chipper, planer, scissors, drills for a few companies(4 facet) and other stuff as well.  At times really just offering a service to get my foot in the door so they know I am available.  Concentrating more on the sharpening aspect knowing I am not ready but inching forward with equipment and tooling.  The only licensed guy around  Works in my favour but not advertising machining at all.  Just letting word of mouth do its thing.
Also realize that I need to make some of my own products.  One thing for sure most people have no idea what it takes and the expense for good quality accurate machining when most people all seem to care about is the cost not quality.  Hit my first year projection.  I have to admit at times it is scary at 50 years old.  Wasn t going to use the credit card but that went out the window along time ago.  Your handcuffed for so long and it s a slippery slope but you have to spend money and lots of it to succeed or else you sit idle.


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## vtcnc (Jul 27, 2018)

P. Waller said:


> Do not open on Saturdays, this is when the homeowners and hobbyists are out and about. If the locals know you are open you will get a never ending stream of broken bicycle parts, broken $19.00 beach chairs, door handles, broken wrought and cast iron patio furniture, kitchen appliance parts, truck ladder racks, car roof top kayak and bicycle racks, home plumbing fixtures, fireplace grates and guards, lawn sprinklers, lawn mowers, floor lamps, reclining chairs, BBQ grills, ceiling fans, floor fans, garage door opener components and so on, most all of these people want you to make a part to repair something that they bought simply for it's low price, you can not do so. Just Say No
> 
> Then the dreaded hobbyists begin to show up, the local classic (not wealthy) muscle car guys are the worst of this lot, they will expect you to share their own love of 1971 Chevy Camaros, they will want a new alternator bracket made for instance and will go stark raving mad when you tell them that it will cost in excess of $500.00 and tell you that GM sold them for $14.95 when in production 50 years ago.
> 
> ...



I have to say...you could have gone on with this rant for 45 minutes and I would have read every word. You had me hooked at “garage opener parts”. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JimDawson (Jul 27, 2018)

MarkM said:


> Wasn t going to use the credit card but that went out the window along time ago.



That reminds me:  Don't borrow money to start or expand a business.  That has been my rule for 50 years and has served me well.  If you can't pay cash for tools and equipment, then you're doing it wrong.  Nothing worse than the bank nipping at your heels when work gets slow.  Nothing wrong with using a credit card for records management, but don't charge more than you can afford to pay off at the end of the month by either having the cash available or very solid receivables.


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## MarkM (Jul 27, 2018)

I agree. Sold off a couple motorcycles but in the end had to get to at least some point to be somewhat functional.  Now I have to claw back but can now make some better sharpening equipment and maybe hold it s own for growth in the machine shop as well.  Have to be disciplined to not cross the line.  Scary today with cnc.  Can t compete with that.  Have to find that niche.


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## Winegrower (Jul 27, 2018)

I admire anyone who can make a buck at this stuff.   For me, it’s a hobby and a way to get parts for my R&D project just the way I want them.   Trying to be profitable would turn this into a not so easy job instead of a great fun and useful hobby.


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 27, 2018)

[X]Outlaw said:


> a rotor head



What's a rotor head (might it be a helicopter part?)

Might I suggest you check out Volaré Products?  He makes and sells short (and long) kits for many planes.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 28, 2018)

P. Waller said:


> Then the dreaded hobbyists begin to show up


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## Jake2465 (Jul 28, 2018)

MarkM said:


> One thing for sure most people have no idea what it takes and the expense for good quality accurate machining when most people all seem to care about is the cost not quality.



I would agree. That is also what makes it difficult to make a viable business out of machined parts. Especially if similar parts are already available on a massive scale by China. I was once told by someone that China has become the manufacture of the world. Their bread and butter is pumping out cheap parts at cyclic rates, making cents on the dollar per part. So, there is little hope in competing with that monster because customers only have loyalty to the cheapest seller.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 28, 2018)

So, the answer seems to be that niche or product that would be considered boutique in nature is the way to go. For the folks that have taken the time to reply, thank you. I think this is insightful and makes sense. A lot of strategy has to go into making sure whatever is made cannot be commonly available with tight margins acting as a barrier to entry.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 28, 2018)

T Bredehoft said:


> What's a rotor head (might it be a helicopter part?)



A rotor head as an assembly that houses the feathering shafts, main rotor blades, angel nut, and mountings for other ancillary parts.

That is a nice website . When I was a kid, I had a Peck Polymers One Nite 28. It was a lot of fun to cut it loose in the park and then run after it and sometimes have to climb a tree to get it down .

One of my favorite models I owned was a Lanzo Record Breaker. I think it weighed one pound exactly and was powered by a Norvel .074. It was good at catching thermals. Nice plane for lazy Saturday afternoons.


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## JimDawson (Jul 28, 2018)

Jake2465 said:


> I would agree. That is also what makes it difficult to make a viable business out of machined parts. Especially if similar parts are already available on a massive scale by China. I was once told by someone that China has become the manufacture of the world. Their bread and butter is pumping out cheap parts at cyclic rates, making cents on the dollar per part. So, there is little hope in competing with that monster because customers only have loyalty to the cheapest seller.



We have started doing ''low quality'' machining.  As an example, one customer had been getting a part made by another shop that was costing him about $50 per unit.  We were able to get that cost down to $8 per unit and still maintain a $150/hour machine time rate.  The parts are as dimensionally accurate as they need to be, but there might be some minor tool marks that still show after tumble finishing.  One caveat is that he has to buy 30 units at a time because that is what we can fit on a pallet, but at that price point he was more than happy to buy 30 units.

In some areas, it is possible to compete with China.  All parts do not have to have a mirror finish nor NASA tolerances.


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## Boswell (Jul 28, 2018)

JimDawson said:


> All parts do not have to have a mirror finish nor NASA tolerances.



Jim is right on. As hobby, part of the enjoyment can be making something that is extra pretty, extra elegant and the cost per part is not the driving factor. I am sure my thoughts on this will be a little controversial but these are poor habits for when you want to make money. higher quality that what is needed is wasted time and therefore unnecessary cost. I think the Chinese mfg understand this. You can get high quality parts from China but there expertise seems to be making stuff at the minimum quality that the buyer can accept and not put any cost into the mfg that is not needed to meet the buyers specifications. This is one reason why it is important who you buy imported stuff from.  The reputation that old American made equipment is built to last a lifetime is a great testament to the abilities of past engineers and manufacturing companies. But how much added cost is there in a machine that works as good today as it did 100 years ago when production shops need CNC in order to keep labor and time per part low or as Jim points out a part with perfect surface finish when that is not needed for the part to function and not part of the specification.


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## Winegrower (Jul 28, 2018)

I assure you that Chinese manufacturing can generate extremely high quality products, at a very advanced technology level.   At one time in my career, I indirectly managed a factory in Shenzhen with 7500 line workers assembling 36 track magnetic recording heads.   Think of that...don’t think there was anywhere else in the world where that could have been done.   They were all working through microscopes, and the quality was impeccable.

Of course now most of my contact with Chinese manufacturing is through Harbor Freight.   Pretty easy to forget that you get what you pay for.


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## P. Waller (Jul 28, 2018)

Jake2465 said:


> I would agree. That is also what makes it difficult to make a viable business out of machined parts. Especially if similar parts are already available on a massive scale by China. I was once told by someone that China has become the manufacture of the world. Their bread and butter is pumping out cheap parts at cyclic rates, making cents on the dollar per part. So, there is little hope in competing with that monster because customers only have loyalty to the cheapest seller.


Not exactly correct, one may have products produced there to very high quality if that is a requirement, this approach will save you little with a product that has limited sales in the USA.

If you can design a $50,000 small lathe that can be manufactured and sold for $4900.00 to the roughly 1000 people that will buy such a thing here in the US you have struck gold, do it, I look forward to the result.


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## P. Waller (Jul 28, 2018)

Jake2465 said:


> So, the answer seems to be that niche or product that would be considered boutique in nature is the way to go. For the folks that have taken the time to reply, thank you. I think this is insightful and makes sense. A lot of strategy has to go into making sure whatever is made cannot be commonly available with tight margins acting as a barrier to entry.


Artisanal door hinges made from the remnants of 12th century bronze swords, relocate to Seattle for this.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 28, 2018)

P. Waller said:


> Artisanal door hinges made from the remnants of 12th century bronze swords, relocate to Seattle for this.



I feel like the customers into this would be flamboyant in nature.


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## David Paulson (Jul 28, 2018)

I came from the plastic injection molding world but i thought this was for hobby interest machining


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## P. Waller (Jul 28, 2018)

David Paulson said:


> I came from the plastic injection molding world but i thought this was for hobby interest machining


Indulge your sense of humor, someone has to produce the fleshlight molds (-:


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## Jake2465 (Jul 28, 2018)

David Paulson said:


> I came from the plastic injection molding world but i thought this was for hobby interest machining



It pretty much is. There are vendors on this site, but yes it pretty much stays in line with the website name . This was more to see if any members have ever done a weekend business or something like that to help pay for the hobbies they like so much. As an example: I am working on my helicopter project. I expect it to cost me close to 25K by the time it's operational (which is dirt cheap when comparing to what they normally cost). I could take large portions out of my paychecks each month to pay for it, but if I found a way to provide value to others with the same equipment that supports my hobby, then my helicopter could get done just that much sooner. Possibly from five years down to three. Seems like a win win to me!


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## francist (Jul 28, 2018)

I often wonder how much income is generated by some of the more front-line YouTube personalities. And I don't mean that in any sort of derogatory way -- they are a mainstay of my evening entertainment when I'm not in my shop.

In terms of a win-win situation though, that would seem to be a good fit. You do your own thing, in your own shop, on your own time. No shipping, no returns, nobody comes to your door. And people give you tools and free things! (Yes that's a very simplistic look at it, I know there is much background work that must go into maintaining a channel and providing constant content.)

It's not a thing I would succeed at, I'm too thin-skinned to survive, but I do wonder about it. Anybody know?

-frank


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## Jake2465 (Jul 28, 2018)

francist said:


> It's not a thing I would succeed at, I'm too thin-skinned to survive, but I do wonder about it. Anybody know?



Interesting question. I found this calculator that more or less breaks it down:

https://influencermarketinghub.com/youtube-money-calculator/

I watched a lot of NYC-CNC to learn Fusion 360. Autodesk was not as far along in the video tutorials as John was, so I chose him as my go to source for Fusion help. Good thing too as my mill came as a CNC from the factory. 

This Old Tony has many good instructional videos with his manual mill and lathe along with a bit of humor thrown in. 

mrpete222 has a massive collection of instructional videos that could take someone from total novice to machine tool warrior. 

Abom79 does tons of stuff with lathe work. It was through his videos that I taught myself how to use a 4 jaw and get a part to run concentric within minutes. 

All of these YouTube guys have helped me along a great deal because I do this alone. None of my friends are into machining. They are consumers, not makers.


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## f350ca (Jul 28, 2018)

Jake2465 said:


> This was more to see if any members have ever done a weekend business or something like that to help pay for the hobbies they like so much.


I retired at 45 from an engineering position. Best move I ever made. I now have what you might call an industrial level hobby machine shop. I live in the country where machine shops are few and far between. I make enough income to buy tools and toys, but I'd never survive on the income. I also have a fairly extensive cabinet shop. Again I'd starve on its income but a set of kitchen cabinets a year along with a couple of pieces of custom furniture keeps me in spending money. A bit of custom sawing with my saw mill helps too. 
I'm as busy as I want to be, if I was in a different position I could advertise and be busier. I have a group of people that come on a regular basis knowing I'll get them out of a bind and back farming or drilling or building. 
The odd job is boring, if I think its a waste of my time and their money I tell them.

Greg


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## MarkM (Jul 29, 2018)

I think also alot of the public has no idea that broken parts can be made or they have been too use to throwing things out and buying new.  For myself alot of it has been to some way let people know that there equipment can be repaired and machine shop services are available.  I ll knock on farmers doors to introduce myself and quite often the reaction is that they are surprised there is still someone doing it.  They have said to me they have taken something to the city only to be told it just isn t worth it for them to make the one part and the old guy with the skill to do it is semi retired.  Mind you I don t have a hundred thousand dollar lathe with 36 inch swing that needs to make bigger dollars.  I Still think a maintenance repair shop can make a go of it.  I am aiming for this. They are getting few and far between as it seems to be all about production and cnc with your operators vs. Machinists.   Quite often I ll get some work out of that farmer even if it is just a shaft or a bushing to help his aging equipment. 
Another thought on the hobbyist.  When you compare a hobbyist to someone that say makes a living a hobbyist has the ability to explore and take on challenges that one in a shop may never do.  They Gain knowledge over time without the pressure to produce so they can go about it in a manner to understand and not worry too much about making a mistake and we all know making mistakes can be one of our best teachers.  Take a look at some of the work done by seasoned hobbyist.  Stunning and because there is true interest that comes from within they are constantly intrigued by the machining world and are like sponges seeking more knowledge.  Someone in a shop grinding it out may have lost that attitude and more interested in the clock and when the day is done!


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## Creativechipper (Jul 29, 2018)

Good read, interesting to hear about all the stuff and stories.

 I haven't made anything yet but like to read about whats possible.

 Thanks


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## P. Waller (Jul 30, 2018)

There are one person shops that do very specialized work and do well financially, I occasionally used a local WEDM shop, one person with 2 machines, much of his work would take well over 8 hours per operation, these machines can easily run lights out. He had the not inconsiderable advantage of bringing high end customers with him when his former employer went Tango Uniform, this is an unlikely scenario for a hobbyist.

I brought some of my customers to the shop that I work for now, I get a commission for these jobs, my currrent employer is an understanding fellow in this regard.


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## Jake2465 (Jul 30, 2018)

I do think it is critical that specialization in something is thought out with care. This is due to the fact that scarcity of that particular service / product will allow for a more reasonable margin to exist. 

A friend of mine used to do metal fabrication as a business before he got hired on full time for a company that paid him more than he ever made doing random work for folks. Anyway, he said that there was a time that he placed a sign out by the end of the driveway that advertised his services. He said that he took it down after a while because the only people that ever came by were ones that were wanting him to weld their rusty exhausts back together for 20 bucks. Basically, the only "customers" that responded to his general welding sign were people that wanted stuff for practically nothing. They were hoping that instead of paying 120 bucks at a repair shop, they could sucker him into doing it for 20 bucks. 

I think general machining would likely turn out the same way. So, it's best to not go that route. My time is limited and I want to enjoy my hobby, not get stressed out by it. I would rather make money with my mill making stuff I enjoy anyway because it fits my interests.


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## francist (Jul 30, 2018)

Jake2465 said:


> Basically, the only "customers" that responded to his general welding sign were people that wanted stuff for practically nothing. They were hoping that instead of paying 120 bucks at a repair shop, they could sucker him into doing it for 20 bucks.



I think there's probably also a perception that because someone works out of their home (shop), that the cost should be cheaper than someone "actually doing it for a living". Regardless of whether the person's home shop is their living, I think people automatically assume no overhead, no staff, no costs, etc etc. Hey, he's doing it out of his basement, he's got to be cheaper than the real guys....

-frank


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## Jake2465 (Jul 30, 2018)

francist said:


> Hey, he's doing it out of his basement, he's got to be cheaper than the real guys....



Yep, pretty much... 

That's why I have been leaning toward making a web based store front and selling there. I can make myself look like whatever I want on that website.


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## vtcnc (Jul 30, 2018)

Jake2465 said:


> So, the answer seems to be that niche or product that would be considered boutique in nature is the way to go. For the folks that have taken the time to reply, thank you. I think this is insightful and makes sense. A lot of strategy has to go into making sure whatever is made cannot be commonly available with tight margins acting as a barrier to entry.



Yes ^this^

Keep in mind I'm commenting from the perspective of somebody who would buy parts from you for the purpose of running a manufacturing plant.

IF you can find a niche that you can leverage in a HIGH quality, LOW volume of something people are willing to pay hard earned money for - then yes I think you can make a go of it. "Making parts & Making money" means doing business with those who have been burned by China, on one of the following issues: quality, lead-time or flexibility. If you can provide a distinct advantage in one of those areas, domestic buyers will value your quality over the headaches they know that come from overseas. With that said, I believe this is probably soul crushing work where you become 1000x larger than a hobby and it is mostly CNC - so good luck!

Making it beyond "making parts" means coming up with the niche that nobody else is doing - and more importantly, probably wouldn't want to do it. - because it isn't about making parts, it's about doing something that your buyer hasn't been able to get anybody else to reliably deliver. I think that means accepting a plateau to your profits and growth which is perfectly fine for many one man or slightly larger shops.

As somebody else said, I envy and admire anybody who can do either of the scenarios I describe here.


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## RIMSPOKE (Jul 30, 2018)

I WAS FREELANCING FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS & DID OK , IN FACT I AM STILL DOING IT .

I PUT AN AD ON CRAIGSLIST OFFERING MACHINING SERVICES AND WOUND UP DOING A VARIETY OF
JOBS . THE MOST INTERESTING OF WHICH WAS BUILDING PROTOTYPE KNEE JOINTS FOR PROSTHETIC LEGS 
AND CUSTOM ELECTRIC GUITAR BRIDGES FOR ZION GUITARS .

I JUST BUILT A PAIR OF SPECIALIZED CLAMPS FROM DELRIN AND CLEARED $400 LAST WEEKEND
THEY WERE SO IMPRESSED WITH THE DESIGN & WORKMANSHIP THAT THEY ORDERED 4 MORE !

I SET UP AN LLC AND PAY TAXES ON THE MONEY MADE IN THE SHOP .
TROUBLE IS , I STILL HAD TO PAY HEALTH INSURANCE PREMIUMS TO THE TUNE OF $2400 / MONTH .

I WAS TREADING WATER WITH AN ONGOING EXPENSE LIKE THAT SO I DECIDED TO GO BACK TO WORK FOR
ANOTHER COMPANY . I AM A MACHINIST AT CORNING NOW AND DO MY OWN STUFF ON THE WEEKENDS . 

I OFTEN FIND MYSELF MAKING PARTS FOR WORK IN MY HOME SHOP
I CALL IT A REVERSE GOVERNMENT JOB . THE SHOP AT WORK IS NICE
BUT I HAVE A LOT OF STOCK , TOOLS AND CAPABILITIES THAT THEY DON'T !

I HAVE NEVER BEEN BUSIER .


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## P. Waller (Jul 30, 2018)

If you have superior equipment to the glass manufacturer Corning, assuming that you do not mean Billy Joe Corning's lawn mower repair shop you are well ahead of the game, good on ya.


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## RIMSPOKE (Jul 31, 2018)

P. Waller said:


> If you have superior equipment to the glass manufacturer Corning, assuming that you do not mean Billy Joe Corning's lawn mower repair shop you are well ahead of the game, good on ya.



CORNING OPERATES A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLANTS . 
THE ONE I WORK AT DOES PLASTIC EXTRUSION & MOLDING AND IS EXPANDING TO INCLUDE 
THE VALOR GLASS VIALS . 

THE PROBLEM WITH THEIR SHOP IS A LACK OF SHEET METAL EQUIPMENT AS WELL AS WHAT I CONSIDER BASIC ITEMS . 
WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF THEY GAVE YOU A JOB THAT WOULD BE EASYILLY DONE WITH A COLLET INDEXER 
BUT THEY DON'T HAVE ONE ? I BRING MINE TO WORK . 

I AM GOING IN TO WORK TODAY WITH SOME SHEET METAL BRACKETS I MADE LAST NIGHT . 
SIMPLE PARTS IF YOU HAVE A SHEAR & BRAKE BUT THEY DON'T AND WHAT TOOK BE 15 MINUTES AT HOME 
WOULD TAKE HOURS TO CUT OUT ON A MILL .   

THEY DON'T KEEP A LOT OF STOCK ON HAND . INSTEAD THEY ORDER WHATEVER THEY NEED AT THE TIME . 
I ACTUALLY HAVE MORE AT HOME IN MY PRIVATE STOCK THAN THEY DO AT WORK ! 

I AM ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES WITH MANAGEMENT , 'TILL THEN I DON'T MIND 
DOING A LITTLE ON THE SIDE TO GET THE JOB DONE .


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## MarkM (Aug 1, 2018)

I have enjoyed this read from the different perspectives.  Times are changing constantly it seems these days.  Markets are global but there is stil alot of operations that need general machining.  Take the quarry down the rd.  Use to do line boring work for them.  Alot of simple work came along with it.  The line boring work got the company I worked for in the door.   I ve been out along time and now that service isn t available locally.  So they call Cat and pay through there teeth easily more than double what they use to pay.  I d love to be set up for it.  Problem is the two or three grand for the mag drill is behind a whole lot of other stuff.  The line boring is just one card though!  Not enough to make a living.  So I can start on making some of the stuff for the time being.   There has to be more cards though.  It s a hard go when the mentality isn t what it used to be.  We throw away and buy new but there is still alot of equipment out there that needs to be maintained.      Cnc has to be for sure in the game just for the arcs and radiuses.  It all isn t cheap and hard to put those cards down.  If one does it has to be full committment and yes stay away from credit.  A great and very inspirational quote from another forum that makes alot of sense to me!  Don t worry about perfection! Worry about progress or you ll never get your feet off the ground!


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## P. Waller (Aug 1, 2018)

RIMSPOKE said:


> CORNING OPERATES A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLANTS .
> THE ONE I WORK AT DOES PLASTIC EXTRUSION & MOLDING AND IS EXPANDING TO INCLUDE
> THE VALOR GLASS VIALS .
> 
> ...


They pay you handsomely for this I imagine.


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## MarkM (Aug 2, 2018)

I mentioned earlier about sharpening knives. Had a few to do and everyone likes pics. Also taking a few drills with me to see someone about sharpening drills. A glass company. They Do alot of aluminum extrusion so taking three drills. All different angles 110, 125 and 135. The 110 has a lip angle of 14 the 135 has 9.  All four facet grind.  I m just mickey mouse really in a small town. Nobody is doing it though.  Anyways here are some pics.


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## francist (Aug 2, 2018)

Very cool! The itinerant knife and scissor sharpener man still exists! 

There is hope for the world yet....

-frank


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## MarkM (Aug 3, 2018)

It just another way for something to be steady. Where I am there is no production whatsoever.  Six to Eight week rotation with the knives.    I got my foot in the door on more than one occasion with some drills.  Do I make much off of them no but it has led to doing actual machine work being in contact with them doing the drills.  Doing what I can to,get up and going.  Moved out here over twenty years ago as a machinist after a vacation.  No one around but me so Trying to figure a way so the sharpening came along as I know it s going to take years and alot of of dollars to be a full rounded machine shop.


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## warrjon (Aug 3, 2018)

The sad part down under is that as the old engineering shop owners retire they can not sell their businesses and end up auctioning off all the plant and equipment, I am going to a such auction on Tuesday. In Australia we are loosing the ability to make anything. I remember my father who owned an injection molding shop said to mum he can buy new pellets from China cheaper than he could re-grind.


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## Firstram (Aug 3, 2018)

P. Waller said:


> Do not open on Saturdays, this is when the homeowners and hobbyists are out and about. If the locals know you are open you will get a never ending stream of broken bicycle parts, broken $19.00 beach chairs, door handles, broken wrought and cast iron patio furniture, kitchen appliance parts, truck ladder racks, car roof top kayak and bicycle racks, home plumbing fixtures, fireplace grates and guards, lawn sprinklers, lawn mowers, floor lamps, reclining chairs, BBQ grills, ceiling fans, floor fans, garage door opener components and so on, most all of these people want you to make a part to repair something that they bought simply for it's low price, you can not do so. Just Say No



I worked in my Dad's job shop for a while until he passed in '92 and he felt the same way.  I was 27 and full of energy ( insert young and dumb) and always ready to make a buck. We kept a large inventory of boat trailer parts on hand and I'd repair trailers on the side of the road for $35/hr + material. We once had an older gentleman wanted me to sandblast the burnt food out of his pots and pans (Alzheimer's). Most folks were broke or really cheap but they were always willing to barter. Besides cash I got paid with a shotgun, gallons of moonshine, fish, random tools, vouchers for pizza at the local restaurant... One guy paid me with 50 lbs of shrimp to bore out a heavy u-joint for his net winch, that was a good day! 

The most valuable thing I took away from there besides a tremendous amount of experience was learning that Dad was right, never open on Saturday.


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## P. Waller (Aug 4, 2018)

I live in a fairly well heeled small town, it is 1/2 Sq. miles in area and full of homes built in the mid 19th century. I went to High School with a guy whose parents owned the local hardware store, he runs it now. When I had my own shop I would often go there for simple items, one day whilst there he trots a homeowner up to me and says this guy can make the 1875 door parts that you are looking for. He has a sample, an elaborate cast iron lever with a square blind recess in one side, a square shaft with threads on the corners of unknown size and a cast bronze face plate that the shaft passes through with all manner of fillets and radii.

I ask, "does it need to be exactly like this?"
"Yes exactly, can't find these anywhere"
I ponder the work involved.

Tell him "$250.00 each"

He says "You are an a**hole, I can buy a entire new door for less at HD" and storms off.
I tell the store owner that he will be back.

Lo an behold a month later he calls and asks if the price is still $250.00, I have been searching for a month and can't find parts that match.

Me "No $400.00"
Him "You said $250.00 at the hardware store"
Me "I did but that was before you called me an a**hole"


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## Jake2465 (Aug 4, 2018)

MarkM said:


> Where I am there is no production whatsoever.



I live next to Wright Patterson AFB. There are likely around 100 machine shops in the area. Because of that, I believe having my mill up and running really does not add much value to the local economy (basically no one cares, they have plenty of help already). Also, the competition would be a lot higher and that means tight margins. I picked a bad town to live in for a machining business .
I do like the idea of producing parts or components that are intended for hobby use and perhaps start on eBay or one of these selling sites that has a lot of traffic. Profits there are not as good because for all the traffic they charge around 13% of the final sale. But, one thing that is good is that it gets the product out there and visible to the general public. I don't think eBay or Amazon is a good place for permanence. They just charge too much to sell on their platforms, but say, a couple years to get public awareness out, I think it's hard to beat. It gives opportunities for the seller to put website business cards in the boxes when shipped to customers and so on with the intention of making a transition to a personal eCommerce site.




P. Waller said:


> He says "You are an a**hole, I can buy a entire new door for less at HD" and storms off.



See, people don't understand what all it takes to produce something like that. The guy was probably thinking he could get it by paying you 20 bucks or something. It's for situations like that and others that I am not fond of providing a service to individuals. I have heard from folks that deal with individuals (not businesses) that say people are usually cheap. Of course they don't care if the poor guy at the shop works all day and only makes 10 bucks or whatever it is. Just as long as they get a deal and can brag to their friends about it .

When I first got my mill, I was eager to learn how to work it and learn about machining parts. a few months in I decided to help someone I knew that asked if I could help make some parts. I guess he helped run some kind of hydroponics graphics thing and they needed a way to hold pins with a fixture. I thought at first that it would be easy enough and I was offered $50 to pay for the materials and to see I could come up with something. Well, long story short, it took me way longer than I thought and the fixture needed to hold something like 10 pins and could only hold them in the ends and this and that. The first prototype did not work as the water resistance tended to knock the pins off of the fixtures when the operator dunked them in the bath. I found out that they were expecting me to come up with a perfectly engineered solution on the first go and they got annoyed because that did not happen. They result is that they basically did not come back to me and I never heard back. I made nothing off of that and If I recall, it took me something like 17hrs of work to try and get something they could use. Since then I have had a few friends come and ask me if I could make stuff for them. Most of the time I tell them no because they usually are only asking me because they don't want to spend any money at a real shop. I guess I feel like that is not a good reason to ask a friend...


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## francist (Aug 4, 2018)

Two sure-fire customer comments guaranteed to elevate the price:

"That much?!  If I had the tools I could do it myself...."
"That much?!  Man, you make more than I do...."

-frank


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## [X]Outlaw (Aug 4, 2018)

Those and...but that's just $5 worth in aluminum/steel/whatever stock. I swear the next time I hear that I'm going to hand the customer a $5 piece of stock and send them on their way.


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## P. Waller (Aug 4, 2018)

A local lawn service contractor brought me one of his trailers that was heavily damaged, it was full of mangled equipment, mowers, blowers, edgers, rakes, shovels and so on, the common equipment that suburban lawn technicians carry, I asked him what happened.

His crew was cutting a lawn on a 2 lane street, this street has white lines down the center and a white line on each side delineating the full width shoulders. The truck and trailer were parked on the shoulder, along comes an ancient geezer in a Crown Vic driving along the shoulder like it is the right lane, as they do. He perfectly nails the beaver tail ramp like a baseball pitcher throwing a strike, a 10 from all of the judges, this destroys everything that wasn't in use. No one was injured, the airbags kept the old codger safe. A picture would have been taken today but this was pre-smartphone in the ancient year of 2001.


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## samthedog (Aug 7, 2018)

I own 2 businesses and have run my metal-shop for paid work in the past. The problem with being a small job shop is that it isn't scalable. It has a high up-front cost and the skills required to conduct the operations take a considerable time to master. Where I have made my money is on jobs that large companies needed done immediately and the lead time for their regular supplier was too long. In these situations, I generally make $180 an hour plus material costs and do these after hours - if I feel like it.

I generally don't deal with small clients or back-yard repairs. I help out my friends but I always keep things clearly differentiated as a paid customer or friend and never mix the two. What is unusual is that I work in subsea oil and gas, own a business consultancy and software company and do paid machining jobs from time to time. If you want to make money, then your goal needs to be finding a niche, good customers and focus on scalability. The product or service is figured out after the customers needs, pains and goals are established.

Paul.


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## Janderso (Aug 8, 2018)

I don't know if this applies, back in the early 1980's, I was hired as a manufacturing and distribution manager in Benicia Ca.
The Company name was Westar. We manufactured, Incrediball. It was a soft polyeurethane ball stitched with a nylon cover. The owner purchased some baseball winding equipment down in Port-Au-Prince Haiti. We closed down the plant and I set-up the equipment and overhauled the baseball machines. The, "Reach Brand" machines were heavy iron made in the 1920's. That was my introduction to heavy iron.
We made baseballs of all quality levels, we also made 12" (softballs). Rawlings, Spaulding, De-Beer (sp?) were all down in Haiti at that time.
I was always very mechanical and was known to be able to fix just about anything. I still do ok.
Easton Sporting Goods purchased the company and moved production to Taiwan. It looks like they are still for sale!!
Anyway, that was another life ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Easton-SoftS...pID=51fbqkLJhuL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch


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## KBeitz (Aug 26, 2018)

I worked at a Textile factory and over heard the boss saying they paid $$$$ for a yarn rack.
I told the boss that was outrageous... He said do you think you can do better? That started 
my business. I made all kinds of textile machines until textile left the good old USA. Now
my shop makes money going to the junkyard and bringing home things people trash because
they could not find anyone that could fix them. It's just unbelievable what people trash today.
I also make wood working machinery.


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## Bob Korves (Aug 26, 2018)

My dad advised me as a teenager never to turn a hobby or other pastime into a job.  Not only is it difficult to make money that way, and possibly lose money instead, but it also tends to take away the joy from the things you do for fun.  I don't know if I totally agree with dad's advice, but I have followed it all these years and it has served me well.  I always worked for an employer I could put up with, doing interesting work, and who paid me decently and regularly, and I played with my hobbies and sports on my own time, strictly for enjoyment.  I still follow that path.  People ask me to make them something in my shop for money, and I tell them I only do my fun stuff for fun...  YMMV...


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