# Making a Screwless Vise work on my Mini Mill



## Magneto&TitaniumMan (Jun 5, 2020)

This is my first project with the Mini Mill. Probably one of the simplest ever but its a start. I want to document my progress. A little too long of a video for what it is, but I wanted to explain my thought process on how I got to this point. If you want to skip to the end to watch the machining go to 6:55. After doing this I've already realized better ways I could have done this and I plan to do it again. Let me know how the cutter sounds. 

Link to youtube video


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## Ken from ontario (Jun 6, 2020)

It looks like your first milling project worked out fine, I'm a new hobbyist myself so I would not dare giving advice but just wanted to say, the first thing you realize in this hobby (after doing it for a while) is , there's more than one way  to achieve that end result we're seeking, some ways may look peculiar or unorthodox to the veterans but as long as what you've made is functional and useful, you've achieved your goal.
I watched this video last night but waited to post . I like you ,am also interested to hear/read  comments on your method, or your question on the cutter sound, hopefully my post will bring this thread up to the " new posts" list and we'll hear more.


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## brino (Jun 6, 2020)

@Magneto&TitaniumMan

I am not a professional.
Nothing you did in the video made me cringe or laugh.
I think Ken is right; there's many ways to do this.
I believe you found one way to safely accomplish your goal.
Hopefully this thread will provide enough options to see the different ways that different people would approach it.

Interestingly, having the flat cut on the stud would stop the stud from rotating when you tighten the nut, if the clamp is held.
It could also prevent the stud from threading thru the t-nut and damaging the table if your nuts do not have the last few threads modified to prevent that.
Some clamp sets I have seen have either a hex in the middle of the stud, or a hex recess in the top so you can use another wrench to hold the stud while you tighten/loosen the nut.
One draw-back may be that tightening the nut could try to rotate the clamp, and that might be annoying for touchy set ups.

A couple thoughts I had......

1) My first thought would have been to open up the slot in the clamp...if it would leave enough strength in the clamp.
My steps would be i) test one with a file to see if it's machinable with an HSS end-mill (of course cutting with a carbide end mill would also be an option), ii) if machineable, clamp vise as you have done, hold a clamp to be modified in the vise on parallels thin enough to clear the end mill, iii) use an endmill small enough diameter to fit the original slot so I can cut one side at a time, iv) alternately cut one side then the other using conventional milling, and open up the slot to give a clearance fit to the stud.

2) If 1) above couldn't work, I would have tried to make two opposite flats on the stud. Sure you would then have two gaps in the thread, but each would be smaller and in my mind the nut would be less likely to tilt on the thread. The only problem then becomes one of indexing the bolt so that the two cuts/flats are 180 degress apart. A collet and square block  would be ideal, but you could also use an adjustable paralled, or stack of parralels against the first flat (now on the bottom) to set up for the cutting the second flat on the top.

3) another approach would have been to mount the vise as you did just long enough to make new t-nuts that you drill and tap for a stud that does fit thru your clamps.

4) I would have used some brass shim stock in the vise to avoid clamping directly on the stud threads and risk damaging them.

As you pointed out in the video threaded rod is readily available so it's easy and inexpensive to do again, if you want.
I think holding the work is one of the most interesting parts with any job.....mill or lathe.
You need to plan the order of operations to not cut-off too early what could have been a good handle later.
The more jobs you do, the more "table furniture" you will collect and use.
Do not overlook bolting things directly to the table, just be sure to have spacers or a sacrifical "waste board" underneath to avoid marring your nice new table.

Keep having fun and be safe!
-brino


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## mikey (Jun 7, 2020)

Those of us who use these screwless vises all have the same problem - mounting them. Your vise is a Groz vise out of India. They make really good vises, good enough that Wilton screwless vises are made by them so you chose well. 

As you noted, the best solution for these vises without side slots is to make hold downs with pins projecting out the side of a clamping body with a hole in it to take a T-stud. If you place a pair in the first hole nearest the fixed jaw and the second pair in the T-slot closest to you, they don't get in the way too often. If you do make this type of clamp the pins only need to go into the holes in the side of the vise by about 1/8 - 3/16". You can also shorten the pin that goes across the vise body if you need to. 

I wanted to mention that you only need to tighten the nuts on a clamp about 1/8 of a turn past contact. It should be solid and snug but you don't need to gronk down on clamping nuts too hard. These nuts generate tremendous force applied in a tiny area and that can actually damage the T-slots in a cast table.

All in all, screwless vises are usually quite accurate and rigid but they are more cumbersome to use. You might look for a used 3" Kurt vise that will be more user-friendly for general work and save your screwless vise for when you need the precision.


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## Magneto&TitaniumMan (Jun 8, 2020)

Wow thanks for all the detailed info and suggestions.



brino said:


> @Magneto&TitaniumMan
> 
> 1) My first thought would have been to open up the slot in the clamp.
> 
> 2) If 1) above couldn't work, I would have tried to make two opposite flats on the stud. Sure you would then have two gaps in the thread, but each would be smaller and in my mind the nut would be less likely to tilt on the thread. The only problem then becomes one of indexing the bolt so that the two cuts/flats are 180 degress apart. A collet and square block  would be ideal, but you could also use an adjustable paralled, or stack of parralels against the first flat (now on the bottom) to set up for the cutting the second flat on the top.



I thought of doing point 1) but figured the clamps were harder than the studs. I never thought to test the hardness with a file. I do have some carbide bits so it's worth a shot. I just wanted to start with HSS bits in case I made a grave mistake.

Regarding point 2), right after I finished machining the studs I realized it would have been way easier to machine a bit from each side rather than all from one. It would look nicer and be more uniform too. However, I think i'm gonna try machining the slot in the clamp next.



mikey said:


> Those of us who use these screwless vises all have the same problem - mounting them. Your vise is a Groz vise out of India. They make really good vises, good enough that Wilton screwless vises are made by them so you chose well.
> 
> I wanted to mention that you only need to tighten the nuts on a clamp about 1/8 of a turn past contact. It should be solid and snug but you don't need to gronk down on clamping nuts too hard. These nuts generate tremendous force applied in a tiny area and that can actually damage the T-slots in a cast table.



That's good to hear. After I bought the vise I did some research and came across some ignorant comments on the Groz name just because it's made in India. It could also be over time they improved. I was very pleased with its quality when opening it up and using it so far.

Thanks for the tip on tightening. I don't know why I have the bad habit of over tightening. I realized this especially when I was adjusting the gib locking nuts. The nuts were low quality as well, so I plan on buying some with higher quality threads so its easier to adjust. The gib adjustment took me the longest when I took the mill apart and put it back together.

I'm doing searches almost daily for used tools and vises, don't see too many vises surprisingly. But I'll keep looking because I know there are a lot of retired/retiring machinists in Ontario. The only thing they seem to be selling are Micrometers and End Mills.

Also wanted to mention I filmed the entire video in the wrong orientation and didn't notice until I started editing. Next video will be in the much more enjoyable Landscape.


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