# Question? That I'm Sure Has Been Beat To Death



## danny12 (Nov 30, 2016)

Hello all I've finally decided to just ask and hope for the best, I've been reading and reading but as you all know the subject I'm asking about is a little over whelming.

I have a  little Montgomery ward 700a I don't have any tooling for NONE! so I defiantly want to go with a QCTP
and some insert tooling, I will learn to grind HSS but would like to get to making some chips and take some of the learning curve out of it.

1. what size tools would be better 3/8 or 1/2"
2. taking into consideration inserts are their any tool holders and  boring bars that use the same insert and what size bars would you recommend 
3. I've read a hundred threads on parting tools and honestly am scratchin my watch an windin my azz 
4. also inserted threading tools

    I guess I'm asking knowing what you know now what would you buy . I'm not afraid to spend a little more now to save a little later. that said I don't really think I need top of the line 

I know it's hard to spend another man's money but you fellers that have already been down this road,
I'd sure appreciate some advice.

Thanks Danny

P.S. If this is in the wrong topic please move it,  (And tell me where it went  LOL)


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## Tony Wells (Nov 30, 2016)

Good question, and you will get good answers. Some different, so you will still have decisions to make, just not as many.


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## danny12 (Nov 30, 2016)

Thanks Mr Wells hope you are feeling better


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## westsailpat (Nov 30, 2016)

Is this the one you have ?http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/222312146569?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
Prolly 3/8 s on the bits , inserts are nice but not necessary . All the stuff you need can be had at a lot of places , one nice thing about the ebay is you get a nice pic and can ask questions . You could pick up a nice QCTP there also . As for a boring bar I would start with this .http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-Shank-B...588133?hash=item4b04a6cf65:g:gW8AAOSwSv1XkYfD


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## wawoodman (Nov 30, 2016)

And learn how to grind HSS. That lathe really isn't made for insert tooling.


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## danny12 (Dec 1, 2016)

westsailpat, yes that lathe is like the one I have.
I do have a set of those boring bars that came with my "Mill" ( really nice drill press).

I know where to find the stuff it just get kinda confusing looking at it. and am more interested in insert tools than the brazed carbide. Even more so a diecent set of tool holders and a couple sized boring bars that use the same inserts that wont break the bank  
 Yes I will be using HSS 

I probably need more advice on a parting tool than anything I don't think it really needs to be carbide inserted but not sure


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## danny12 (Dec 1, 2016)

Something like this!    only smaller and cheaper and different....... 



http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=36045


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## Christian Poulsen (Dec 1, 2016)

For quick change toolposts and holders Aloris is great, but I prefer KDK (adding as needed (when I can afford them! LOL)...(Even a 5c collet holder for boring bars) is available:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/kdk-tool-holder

IMO 3/8" HSS (and later braised carbide) tool bits are a nice fit depending on your lathes swing (is it around 9" to 12"?)...1/4 is a little small for me except for really small lathes, and 1/2 is pretty big (Although I have a few (carbide) I used with my Logan...

...I make (have made) my own boring bars with carbide silver soldered (.010 "sheet" and "black mud flux") on solid carbide shafts (up to 1.000" dia., 1 ft long monster!)

...however; For threading, grooving and cutoff, IMO,  you're ahead by eventually buying a  3/8" insert holder (1 RH for starters) like Kenametal's Top Notch series)...they hold both various threading and grooving (various widths) inserts but as you can see, they're also not cheap:
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/88228762
....Just a note that mine looks like this but holds the inserts "straight" on for OD threading and grooving...
...for ID threading and grooving I also have home made boring bars (although I would like to have a set of Top Notch indexables but are even more expensive!)...But I have to sharpen and/or form mine until I have to take the torch to them again and replace the carbide...

...for small cut off (but bigger than a gooving insert will cut off): Kennametals insert blades are great (one that fits the KDK holder):  http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/...etal+insert+cutt+off+holders&navid=4287923755
...but again: Big bucks!

....now I just gotta' find another lathe to use all this good stuff LOL  (The buyer of my Logan got the old rocker/lamp post tool post and holders (and I still have a bunch more in a box I dug out (for some insane reason) of the metal hopper (scrap) at work...

PS: I guess I should add that my size KDK's will accept up to a little over 3/8" and i have one bigger one (RH) that accepts up to a little over 1/2"


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## danny12 (Dec 1, 2016)

Thanks Christian I was planning on a aloris style QCTP of the Imported type 

 would you suggest a inserted type parting tool or HSS if the later which one P1P2 or what ever


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## talvare (Dec 1, 2016)

If you haven't already, I really think you'd be well served to read Mikey's post about grinding HSS tooling, here:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/how-to-grind-a-hss-turning-tool.52581/#post-439263

Also, Woodman made a good point. Carbide insert tooling works best when making heavy cuts. Is your lathe up to that ?

Just my two cents.
Ted


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## Christian Poulsen (Dec 1, 2016)

danny12 said:


> Thanks Christian I was planning on a aloris style QCTP of the Imported type
> 
> would you suggest a inserted type parting tool or HSS if the later which one P1P2 or what ever


Well, for a parting (cut off) start, and maybe stay with: 1pc. HSS "blades" (Because most of the time the % of parting off will be seldom unless you have work that you're always parting off))....Because until yoose' get your set up (rigidity, speeds and feeds) down...especially on anything tougher than alum, or mild steel),  it's easy to snap off the insert and snap off (ruin) the insert holder (blade)


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## Bill Gruby (Dec 1, 2016)

wawoodman said:


> And learn how to grind HSS. That lathe really isn't made for insert tooling.



LOL  you do realize the HSS inserts and holders are available??

 "Billy G"


http://www.arwarnerco.com/


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## danny12 (Dec 1, 2016)

talvare thanks for the reply I have read it.

I appricate all the replys about HSS and am not in the least bit worried about grinding a tool bit, grinding is what I'm best at I'm asking about insert tooling


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## danny12 (Dec 1, 2016)

Bill thanks for your reply I have looked at those , but the carbide stuff seams less expensive Or am I missing something


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## Bill Gruby (Dec 1, 2016)

Nope, you are correct. Arthur Warner inserts and holders are expensive. Good stuff though and made here in the U.S.A.

 "Billy G"


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## Christian Poulsen (Dec 1, 2016)

Bill Gruby said:


> LOL  you do realize the HSS inserts and holders are available??
> 
> "Billy G"
> 
> ...


...which brings to mind (Hey! I heard that!)...some where around these pages are some links (pictures) of cheap import carbide boring bar sets (short, braised ones for mill and lathe) and longer ones (both carbide and steel shanks with inserts...(and there are various cheap sets for all of it (lathe and mill work)...

I'm trying to stay friendly here but sometimes the truth will set you free (well, me anyway LOL)...

...I have been given some of these cheapos'  (no telling what grade or process details the carbide is) from vendors including 2 sets of 9 short boring bars in a nice little wood holder that are #@&%* (except for on aluminum and leadloy)

IMO some of this, it seems, and I bet, give carbide a bad name...


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## danny12 (Dec 1, 2016)

Bill Gruby said:


> Nope, you are correct. Arthur Warner inserts and holders are expensive. Good stuff though and made here in the U.S.A.
> 
> "Billy G"



thanks


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## Reeltor (Dec 1, 2016)

Just to add my 2 cents; I bought the Authur Warner inserts and holders and thread cutting kit.  I still like the thread cutting holder and insert.  Not so much the other holders.  I've moved up to using carbide inserts and like them better.  Here is a good place to check on QCTP http://www.cdcotools.com/


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## danny12 (Dec 1, 2016)

.


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## 12bolts (Dec 2, 2016)

Danny, do you have a project in mind? Material? All these things can make a difference to what tooling is required.

Cheers Phil


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## danny12 (Dec 2, 2016)

Reeltor,   Thanks that is  good info.

Phil, I don't have anything special in mind. My wife's uncle gave me this lathe his father bought it new the serial # is 1964
I have been kinda slow about getting some tooling just looking and trying to educate my self a little. I know their are so many gadgets that look like the cats meow till you really get to using them and figure out that my old trusty was easier and faster. I'm just kinda looking for info so I don't have a bunch of not so useful tooling laying around. I will be doing the typical repair type stuff I'd love to make tooling like mark f does and I hope to but I'm at the age (47) that I have just enough extra time and money to Pizz ya off   I'm sure most of ya'll can relate.


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## 12bolts (Dec 2, 2016)

As you dont have anything specific at the moment I would be inclined to just get some HSS blanks and try grinding some shapes. Have a look here http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/how-to-grind-a-hss-turning-tool.52581/#post-438949 and then start making some chips. Like you say,  things may look good but until you try you probably wont know. So dont fork out for expensive tooling you may not need. Carbide has its place, but so does HSS

Cheers Phil


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## Tozguy (Dec 2, 2016)

The best way to buy stuff you don't need is to buy before you need it. Learning turning with carbide inserts can be expensive. I bought a cheap set to write off as a learning expense.

Why not make an inventory of everything you already have. Imagine what your most likely first turning job will be and we might be of more help.

Re the size of tools, I would start with the largest the tool holder can handle, for rigidity.


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## Reeltor (Dec 3, 2016)

Danny,

Do you have a lantern tool post and some HSS holders?  Any HSS tool bits/blanks?
Mike


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## danny12 (Dec 3, 2016)

Thanks Phil that's what I was planning on doing. 

Reeltor I  do have a ton of hss that was with the lathe but no holders and the bevel washer for the Lantern post is fubared. I even have a ton of brazed carbide lathe bits that came with the mill. 

I think I worded my ? wrongly I'm not worried about grinding toolbits.

 I am however worried about parting stuff off I don't understand the difference between the parting blades and holders. It seems like higher quality may be better here or a specific style with this smaller machine. 

 And was mostly asking, if you were to be in the market for a set of insert tool holders considering the price of inserts and interchangabality between turning and boring what would you suggest. 

Again thanks to all for the quick replys 

Danny


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## Tozguy (Dec 3, 2016)

Danny, some of these versatile insert tools are what I settled for and I love using them.

http://www.mesatool.com


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## danny12 (Dec 3, 2016)

Tozguy, 
Thanks those look great looks like one tool goes a long way 

Thanks


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## benmychree (Dec 5, 2016)

For a Monkey Ward lathe, carbide tooling would be a waste of money, period.  As to tool bit size, the bigger the bit, the more time and burnt and abraded fingers there will be to grind them to shape.  If I wanted to add a QCTP to the lathe, as I recently did, on a old 9" belt drive Monarch, I bought a Chinese AXA copy, about the cheapest one listed on e bay, and found the quality adequate; the price for the set about $140, as opposed to genuine Aloris at close to one thousand.  If I was still in business, not retired, I would have bought the Aloris.  On this lathe, which turned out to be in excellent condition in spite of its age, I thought the money better spent on getting castings made for a steady and follow rest, and large and small faceplates.


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## wawoodman (Dec 5, 2016)

Bill Gruby said:


> LOL  you do realize the HSS inserts and holders are available??
> 
> "Billy G"
> 
> ...



Agreed. And I've been wanting a set for myself! But pricey, as compared to the carbide sets that seem so ubiquitous.


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## benmychree (Dec 5, 2016)

About the only reason that HSS inserts are used in industry is when used on smaller diameters in a gang tool setup, such as in a turret lathe; the large diameters are cut with carbide bits, while the smaller diameters are cut with HSS; the carbide bits do not hold up well at low cutting speeds, so the HSS bits are used where the cutting speed is within the range for HSS, and yes, if you think carbide is expensive, price the HSS counterparts; the bottom line is that amateurs should learn to grind their own HSS bits, both for economy and experience.  The South Bend publication "How to run a lathe" has info on the subject and may be a big help to the beginner.


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## Reeltor (Dec 5, 2016)

danny12 said:


> Thanks Phil that's what I was planning on doing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Danny,

Since you asked about parting tools here is a few photos that I lifted from Ebay.  I'm sure that some of the real experts can chime in and give you some advise.

I bought a QCTP set that came with a parting blade holder. 




For the life of me, I always had problems with this style holder actually holding onto the parting blade.  I don't know if it's the style of holder that is the issue or if it's just a messed up example of a copy of one of the major manufacturers.   For a while I went back to using the old style lantern type holder.  This style is what I learned on, and is what was used on manual machines for decades in thousands of shops.



Then I came across a NOS parting tool block that takes parting blades w/carbide inserts.  This isn't a great example of the tool block but it's the best one that shows the profile.  The only reason I use this is new one instead of the old style is the ease in just dropping it into the QCTP and not having to swap the QCTP with the lantern post.



here is a shot of the "self grip" insert holder



I hope this helps.

Mike


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## benmychree (Dec 6, 2016)

There is no question tat the holder that you show "Self Grip" will hold its companion blade and tip much more Securely than the Aloris type holder that you show; I have used all types for about 50 years now, and the Self Grip being dovetailed into its holder guarentees that it is not going to fall out, although the tip sometimes does fall out of the blade if not driven in fully.  In parting, generally, the worst is the Armstrong angled type, if a lantern tool post is used with the ring and rocker; if the tool sticks in the cut, it pulls the blade down with the rocker and it skews sideways, nearly always breaking to parting tool if the machine has enough power to do it; this can be mostly cured buy using a solid ring of the correct thickness to hold the tool on center.  Also it helps to use T type parting tools, they are relieved on the sides better than the common tapered type.  Blades that are ground all over are better than those that appear to have been merely cast to shape as one sometimes sees; they are much more likely to bind up and cause problems. 
Finally, I wonder if the blade you are using in your Aloris type holder is really the proper one for the holder, so far as the size and fit;  I have had them come loose from my holder, but rarely, and I think mostly when the blade becomes a little dull and draws to one side of the cut.  I bought the insert type holder and blade from Aloris and was not happy with the performance of it and the cost of inserts and how many were broken and dulled, and I set it aside for a long time.  It is possible that the learning curve of technique as to how to use them was so much different than HSS that if I had stuck with it I might have mastered it; later an employee started using the Self Grip that I had bought in a spectacular deal of a pickup load of tools that I bought, and I followed and now can use them with speed and economy.
Still there is the question as to what sort of machines they are appropriate to use on, and light weight low powered machines may not be appropriate for their use.  On my 9" 1920s Monarch, I use HSS tools, on my 19" Regal Leblond I mostly use the Self Grip.


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## danny12 (Dec 6, 2016)

Thanks Reeltor,
I'm thinking that the Nos style you posted with a hss blade of some style (ground, T, p1, p2 or whatever else is available) lol may work better for my little feller.

This is where you chime in with a suggestion on the blade.  Haha

Thanks again


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## danny12 (Dec 6, 2016)

benmychree said:


> There is no question tat the holder that you show "Self Grip" will hold its companion blade and tip much more Securely than the Aloris type holder that you show; I have used all types for about 50 years now, and the Self Grip being dovetailed into its holder guarentees that it is not going to fall out, although the tip sometimes does fall out of the blade if not driven in fully.  In parting, generally, the worst is the Armstrong angled type, if a lantern tool post is used with the ring and rocker; if the tool sticks in the cut, it pulls the blade down with the rocker and it skews sideways, nearly always breaking to parting tool if the machine has enough power to do it; this can be mostly cured buy using a solid ring of the correct thickness to hold the tool on center.  Also it helps to use T type parting tools, they are relieved on the sides better than the common tapered type.  Blades that are ground all over are better than those that appear to have been merely cast to shape as one sometimes sees; they are much more likely to bind up and cause problems.
> Finally, I wonder if the blade you are using in your Aloris type holder is really the proper one for the holder, so far as the size and fit;  I have had them come loose from my holder, but rarely, and I think mostly when the blade becomes a little dull and draws to one side of the cut.  I bought the insert type holder and blade from Aloris and was not happy with the performance of it and the cost of inserts and how many were broken and dulled, and I set it aside for a long time.  It is possible that the learning curve of technique as to how to use them was so much different than HSS that if I had stuck with it I might have mastered it; later an employee started using the Self Grip that I had bought in a spectacular deal of a pickup load of tools that I bought, and I followed and now can use them with speed and economy.
> Still there is the question as to what sort of machines they are appropriate to use on, and light weight low powered machines may not be appropriate for their use.  On my 9" 1920s Monarch, I use HSS tools, on my 19" Regal Leblond I mostly use the Self Grip.



Thanks but  way above my pay grade haha


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## Reeltor (Dec 6, 2016)

The carbide self-grip inserts blade and tool block came as a set from Iscar.  The package had an original price of $95.  This was new old stock that I got for less than $20.  Keep an eye out, you never know what you will find.  Everyone says, that to run carbide, you need to run fast ( I believed them for years ).  My 1944 vintage Monarch is a monster of a machine but has a top speed of only 700.  Rarely do I run it over 425 and carbide inserts do well.

The best advice I can give you is don't spend any money on tooling until you have a need for it.  I have a pile of stuff that sat for years before I needed it.  Those funds could have been better spent.
If you want a QCTP you can get a set for a reasonable cost.  No rule against putting an old style Armstrong HSS tool bit holder in your QCTP.


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## danny12 (Dec 6, 2016)

If I had any of the Armstrong holders I'd be using them but since I'd have to buy them the money would be better spent on a cheep aloris type I think. I've just read so many horror stories about parting I'm a little gun shy of the holder that comes with them. Then their different types of blades. 

The only reason I ask about tool size 3/8 or 1/2 was the center line hight on this little lathe. 

Man did I open a can of worms.   Lol

Seriously thank you for your time


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## Reeltor (Dec 6, 2016)

Now is the time for you to sign up for the pass around box.  There must be something in the box that a new lathe owner will need


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## danny12 (Dec 6, 2016)

Reeltor said:


> Now is the time for you to sign up for the pass around box.  There must be something in the box that a new lathe owner will need




What is this box you speak of


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## benmychree (Dec 6, 2016)

danny12 said:


> If I had any of the Armstrong holders I'd be using them but since I'd have to buy them the money would be better spent on a cheep aloris type I think. I've just read so many horror stories about parting I'm a little gun shy of the holder that comes with them. Then their different types of blades.
> 
> The only reason I ask about tool size 3/8 or 1/2 was the center line hight on this little lathe.
> 
> ...


I was told by an old timer machinist that it seemed that the most difficult operations for guys learning the trade, so far as lathe work was concerned were threading and parting; with experience, threading got better as time went on, parting did not.


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## Reeltor (Dec 6, 2016)

danny12 said:


> What is this box you speak of



http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pass-around-2016.43894/


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## danny12 (Dec 6, 2016)

Looks Like Fun


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