# Lathe software?



## rick-b (Jun 4, 2019)

Anyone using the Kipware T software?


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## rick-b (Jul 20, 2020)

OK, back looking at the  Kipware T software again. Anyone using it?


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## spumco (Jul 29, 2020)

rick-b said:


> OK, back looking at the  Kipware T software again. Anyone using it?


Not yet, but I'm probably going to buy the full version in the next day or so - thanks to your post.  I'd never heard of it before.

They don't offer a trial version, sadly.  So I'm about to spend quite a bit of time watching their training videos to try to get more info about the workflow and capabilities than the Youtube snippets.  If it doesn't look horrible I can stomach a $500 gamble.

I'm very interested in having an easy, non-internet way to program my new (to me) lathe that is installed directly on the lathe PC.  I use Fusion for milling and design, but I don't trust F360 not to mess around with pricing (again).  So even though I'm having a custom F360 post written as we speak, I see Kipware as insurance at minimum.

If I do get it I'll try to report back with my impressions.


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## rick-b (Jul 29, 2020)

Thanks, I would appreciate that. I have been looking at it for awhile, but because my lathe uses a funky form of G-code I was told I would have to also by their G-code converter which adds more to the price and being over here in Australia it's not $500 it's more like $1100 gamble. It would be way easier if you could get a trial version. At the moment my son does all my drawing on 360 or Solidworks and I thought the kipwareT would be easier for me to learn.


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## spumco (Jul 29, 2020)

I finished going through their training videos and online manual.  It's pretty good, but not what I'd call comprehensive.

My lathe is also a bit funky, but at least the base is Fanuc with some OEM mods - not a total oddball dialect.

You might also consider the GWizard Editor (comes with conversational software).  I had no luck with it when I tried the F&S calculator, but I was also extraordinarily new at CNC at the time.  That one is available for free trial.

GWizard won't work for my needs as it has no live tooling options - that's why Kipware looks promising.  But if you've got a 2-axis lathe it might be the ticket.  Just be aware that it will take quite a bit of time to 'set up' the conversational.  You'll have to define all the conversational software outputs so they work for your dialect of G-code.

Basically you'll be creating a custom post-processor - but in English and not some cray-cray C+ programming language.


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## rick-b (Jul 29, 2020)

Yer, I have both the wizard and wizardE they are good but no real help with this machine. That's why I was hoping the  Kipware T would work and yes I did the same thing I looked at all the youtube stuff, looked at the manual and swapped some emails with them but it hasn't really left me with a lot of confidence it will work for me or it's going to be that easy to lean on the run.  It has been near imposable to find someone who really does use it contrary to what they say in their adds.

I was told even though my machine was new, it used real early Fanuc lathe G-code but I have not found which one. at this point, I either learn to hand-code it or try writing a post-processor for 360 or something.


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## matthewsx (Jul 29, 2020)

I'm using LinuxCNC but I have no idea if it would work for you. 



			Lathe User Information
		


It doesn't have the "easy to use" features that Kipware advertises but I'm pretty sure whatever issues you're having with gcode could be overcome using it. There's a very active user base and as FOSS software your only investment is your time.

I will be watching this thread though because I'd never heard of Kipware and it does look interesting.

Cheers,

John


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## rick-b (Jul 30, 2020)

John,

Yes, it does look interesting and that one reason I end up back looking at it. As for an "active user base" are you talking about  Kipware or  LinuxCNC?
Because if you're talking about Kipware point me to it because I haven't found anything yet.


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## GaryLa (Jul 30, 2020)

I felt there was a lack of documentation and without a trial version, I didn't want to invest time and money in it.


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## alloy (Jul 30, 2020)

I'd not heard of it either.  I'm old school, when I had my other two cnc lathes I did 99% of the programming by hand.  But I'm not opposed to learing new ways of doing things.   My lathe will be delivered tomorrow.   

There is a full version for $395, and a lite version for $175.  You can upgrade from lite at any time. I  asked about a trail version and this is the response I got just a few minutes ago.

Hello ... and thank you for your software interest. "Playing" and "learning" new software can be a daunting and time consuming task. Over the years we have found that users rarely put the time and effort into fully evaluating a title ... lose interest ... or simply try to make the product do things it wasn't designed to do and get frustrated. From our business end ... "trial" versions often lead to time consuming and costly support issues perhaps for clients who may never even commit to making a purchase. Some clients use the "trial" as a one-and-done and never really intended to pursue a purchase in the first place. For these reasons and others ... "trial" versions have not proven to be a good option for us or our potential clients. But we do offer multiple ways for you to make an intelligent decision : (1) The option that seems to work the best and makes the most sense ... We offer free, live, online demonstrations where you can see the software in action and ask questions / get answers in real time. It's just like a live in-house demonstration. We schedule live demos every day during the week during our normal business ... or we can set-up a schedule for off-hours if that would work better for your schedule. You can get additional information and set-up a schedule through this link : https://www.kentechinc.com/webex_request.html (2) We offer very in-depth training options for Kipware® users including video training and online manual websites ... which you can explore. Exploring the content there will give you a good idea of how the software operates and the features available ... here are the links : OnLine Manual Website : https://www.kentechinc.com/Kipware_Manual/index.htm Video Training Website : https://www.kentechinc.com/Kipware_Video_Training_Catalog/index.htm (3) In-Depth Video Presentations ... We offer TONS of in-depth videos on our YouTube channel from presentation videos to videos that show the software in action. You can view all our in-depth videos and learn how Kipware® works at your own schedule and pace. Here is the link if you have interest : https://www.youtube.com/user/KTSoftware


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## GaryLa (Jul 30, 2020)

While I completely understand their position, I must also point out "that's the business you've chosen to be in".

Trials are very common. They could simply not offer support on trials. But to buy something and find you absolutely hate it, or it just doesn't do what you assumed it would, is unreasonable.

A friend of mine opened a shop and complained about the hours. I said, "You chose retail. You have to be open when your customers want to shop. Why are you so surprised?"

Same applies here. Software trials are very, very common. I also don't see why they complain about the trials that go unused. That has no affect on them other than the download. I would be happy to compare it with LinuxCNC and hand-coding. There are several choices out there in this price range. Do they all expect me to buy each one?

Lastly, demonstrations can be setup to show whatever you want. Using the product is the only way to know if it's for you.


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## matthewsx (Jul 30, 2020)

rick-b said:


> John,
> 
> Yes, it does look interesting and that one reason I end up back looking at it. As for an "active user base" are you talking about  Kipware or  LinuxCNC?
> Because if you're talking about Kipware point me to it because I haven't found anything yet.


LinuxCNC has lots of developers constantly extend and refining it as well as many, many users around the world. Plus you know it’s going to be around a long time and will never raise prices  

john


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## Boswell (Jul 30, 2020)

I have many applications that have not had a "Trial" process. I agree that it can make it harder to decide but over time, I have learned to evaluate software based on screen shots, Youtube videos, live demonstrations etc.  If they can't convince me through these methods then I don't buy their software.


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## alloy (Jul 30, 2020)

This is the first time I've really ever looked at conversational programming software.  I have mastercam, but it's not very easy to use.

I'm working on a 7 and a 9 start threads for a speedometer drive gear and I've been playing with it for a week.  The graphics in mastercam don't show the multiple start which is disappointing.

I've been watching the kipware vids and am actually impressed fo the low price of the software.  Lite is $175, full is $395 and when I logged on they had a popup that offered 25% off the full version, and that's for two seats. So for $300 that's not bad when you consider I paid $10k for the lathe.  That's just 3%.  I know I'm not a heavy hitter as far as money goes, but for that price it's definitely worth considering.

GARYLA:   I've found G-Code wizard. What other software have you looked at in the same price range?


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## spumco (Jul 30, 2020)

alloy said:


> I  asked about a trail version and this is the response I got just a few minutes ago.



Identical cut and paste to the email I got.  Not very helpful, but they get to run their business as they see fit.  It's possible they don't have the ability to create a time-limited demo version, but that's pure speculation.

I think I'm going to go for the KipwareT full, no live tool option.  I'm already spending real coin on an F360 PP - and I came to the conclusion that what I want is something for quick and dirty turning. 

If I want something complicated with radial/axial features I'm going to model it anyway in F360.  And the longer I do this machining thing the bigger the money numbers get... $300 doesn't seem like very much now to risk.




matthewsx said:


> LinuxCNC has lots of developers constantly extend and refining it as well as many, many users around the world. Plus you know it’s going to be around a long time and will never raise prices


Forgive me if I missed an implied point, but I think there may be a disconnect here.  KipwareT (or M) are G-code generators.  LinuxCNC is a control system.  Kipware can't control a machine - only output G-code to the machine control system.

Switching to LinuxCNC would be more of a machine retrofit - hardware/electrical/control system.

But I do agree if an OEM control is that wonky retrofitting to LinuxCNC or another system which accepts standard G-code is an attractive option.


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## rick-b (Jul 30, 2020)

Alloy, that's their standard response to any enquiry about a"trial version". I have the same email word to word. 

Spumco is right, going to LinuxCNC would mean a retrofit and I'm not going to do that.

Looking at the  KipwareT it's self looks reasonably easy to learn but their G-code converter looks a bit confusing. I don't want something I need a masters degree in just to use, and yes I know I could hand-code the machine but I'm not that good with G-code.


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## spumco (Aug 1, 2020)

Ok, bought it last night.  KipwareT, full version, no live tools.

Installation was painless although it's annoying I can't change the installation directory - there are now 6 Kipware folders in my root directory.  Just inflames my OCD a little 

Kenntech had an activation code to me within a couple hours.

Fiddling with it tonight, wil report back with impressions.


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## rick-b (Aug 1, 2020)

Spumco, I will be interested to see how you go with it. What machine are you using it on? did you need to get the  G-code converter?


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## spumco (Aug 2, 2020)

It's an Emco 325-II with Fanuc 21TB control.  Emco modified the control language a bit to add live tool/C-axis features.

So far Kipware isn't bad.  I haven't done much besides creating some very basic stuff.  The interface is a bit clunky in places, and the skimpy user manual & videos are already starting to annoy me.

Interface:
- Tabbing through the fields in an operation (or other window) highlights the existing contents, but clicking on the field with the mouse cursor does not.  This means if you click with the mouse you have to click, then backspace to remove the existing data before entering new data.  Or you wind up appending stuff and get "0.050.025".  My guess is that this software was intended for mouseless shop computers - design choice and not a 'bug'
- The toolpath generator is also sort-of mouseless.  Once you start the plot you can't use the mouse to start/stop/change anything.  You must use the keyboard to advance during single-block.
- Also weird in the TP generator:  zooming & relocating require you to click on a "zoom" button or a "relocate" button.  Why not just zoom/move all the time with the scroll wheel?  Again, not a bug but an odd design choice.

Nothing wrong with the software but I can't find an explanation on some things:
- Is there a setting for spindle speed clamp? (G50, max speed during CSS)
- What happens when I turn on both Roughing and Finishing buttons in an operation?
- What's the best practice for roughing/finishing?  One operation with two elements, or two operations?


These aren't showstoppers.  Just observations from someone with about an hour of unsupervised fiddling.


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## rick-b (Aug 3, 2020)

Spumco, At least you have a Funuc you shouldn't need the  G-code converter. I wonder if the software was once a Dos base then converted to Windows? that could explain the clunkiness maybe. 

Have you made anything with it yet?

One of the big things for me is I worry about the lack of explanation.  Looking at the youtube videos they seem to just rush and brush over parts of the software and take it for granted you already know what you are doing,  which to me is no good for a newbie (like me).  Are the training videos any different now you have bought the software?


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## spumco (Aug 3, 2020)

DOS-based...  that wouldn't surprise me one bit.

No, the training videos and 'manual' are exactly what you've already seen on the Kenntech web site.  I'm compiling a (initial) list of questions for them to answer about fields and functions.

The basic stuff is pretty straighforward.  I've been able to cook up a simple turning and threading cycle so far (haven't posted or run them yet).  But there are lots of things missing from the help guide.

Examples:
 - On a radial pointed tool (grooving/parting/threading) what is the X-zero of the tool, and how do we program the conversational for it?  Center (tip), left edge, right edge?  I would touch off the left side and subtract half the insert thickness for my tool offset, but what does Kipware think I should do?
- How do I program a pecking cycle for a boring tool? Shallow, wide counterbore and I want to plunge in Z, pull out, move in X, and repeat.  Then I want to finish in X starting from the hole ID and moving outward.  How?  My attempts resulted in a tool path that went from OD to ID - crashy crashy.

Again, not bashing the software.  Just need some guidance from Kenntech in my learnign curve.


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## rick-b (Aug 3, 2020)

Some good questions. It will be interesting to see their response and how helpful they will be.

A while back I talk to a guy on another forum who said they were helpful for the first 2 weeks then wanted to charge him$$$ for more help.
I didn't get the whole story but if it was true that would defiantly **** me off!

Thanks for keeping me up to date with how it is going.


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## alloy (Aug 3, 2020)

Just to let you know there are others of us of watching this thread.  

Very interested in the software depending on what you come up with.


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## spumco (Aug 3, 2020)

Update...

Kenntech got back to me _fast_ - at 7pm EST - with a very helpful and thorough set of answers.

While I was annoyed that a couple of fields were a complete mystery (X/Z Axis Start Point in the master program compiler screen), the explanation I got was more than just "here is the function."  It was more in line with "here is how they function, here is how some people program with them, here is why you don't want to use them in these other situations, etc."

I won't go in to details on the other questions here, but suffice to say I was favorably impressed.

I'm sure I'll have more questions for them over the next few days/weeks, and I'll broach the subject of a more complete user manual.


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## rick-b (Aug 4, 2020)

That's good to hear. Over the next few weeks, it will be interesting to see if you think the software is only good for hobby work or it will cut it in a real shop.

I still wish they would put more time in on better quilty Videos and manuals.


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## spumco (Aug 4, 2020)

Update 2

One of my questions involved main spindle tapping.  The Kipware code output was not compatible with my (mostly standard) Fanuc control.  It was requesting a "rigid tapping setup block", whatever that was.  The G-code output just put a G84 on one line then proceeded to a G1 move with no spindle reversing.  Not actually a canned cycle.

Kentech responded with a helpful explanation of what the setup block was for (some lathes need an M-code to enter synchronized main spindle tapping), and then asked me how mine worked.  So I attached a copy of the programming manual page.

Today I find that Kentech has updated their software to use the G84 direct tapping cycle, explained the update, and sent me a download link.

*I'm sold.*

It's clunky, has quirks, and looks painfully outdated.  But so does my lawnmower - which still makes grass shorter.

Even if the G-code output winds up being only about 80% of a complete program it's still useful to me.  Not that this "80%" is actually the case, but I suspect I'll be making minor edits to most programs output by KipwareT.

Is this right for a hobby or real shop?  I don't run a real shop, so no idea.  Is this for sophisticated production shops or one-man shops who are CAD wizards?  Probably not.  They want to squeeze out the most favorable toolpaths and CAM + a big brain is the way to do that.

But you know who needs this?  Small shops who can't afford full-blown CAD/CAM, or who have otherwise good machinists/employees who spend _forever_ hand-coding because they have no CAD/CAM experience.   Or hand-code at the machine, standing there on concrete finger-pecking.  If you're going to hand-code get a chair, a cheap PC, and save your knees.

This won't do swanky adaptive tool paths, but it'll get the job done.  And the milling module has something F360 doesn't - plunge roughing.


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## alloy (Aug 4, 2020)

That's nice to hear. 

Awhile back a former company (had a stroke so cant work now) had bought their g code conversion software because they sold the fadals and bought okumas.  Okuma code is not anywhere near fanuc compatible.   We struggled with it for months and they the servers got hacked and we lost everything.

We had bought two seats of it and Kipware would only give us one back.  There was a lot of hand editing after we used the software and I'm told they finally abandoned the software after not getting any cooperation from Kipware.  So now they just reprogram everything.

But I'm very glad to hear that your experience has been positive.  I had a thread on the conversion software and was just reminded it was a Kipware program.

I'm trying to get my Z axis ball screw out of my "new to me lathe" and need to send it out for repair. I may just buy the software and play wih it while I'm waitng 3 weeks for my ball screw to come back.


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## rick-b (Aug 5, 2020)

Spumco, sounds like it's going to work for you that's good to hear. I 'm just a small one-man shop too and I just don't have time to stand around and learn to hand-code (even though I should) But at least now I know that one part of the software work even if it's clunky.

Now the big thing to me will be their G-code converter, without it the "T" software seems to be 95% useless to me.

Alloy, I saw your thread yesterday and was reading it. It didn't give me much hope for using the G-code converter.


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## alloy (Aug 5, 2020)

rick-b said:


> Alloy, I saw your thread yesterday and was reading it. It didn't give me much hope for using the G-code converter.



I'm sorry but I told it like is is.

The software did a decent job of converting X-Y-Z-A movements,  but fell down on the G-M-T codes.  We had to hand edit every program.


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## rick-b (Aug 5, 2020)

Alloy, don't get me wrong I'm happy you told it like it is. To me, if the G-code converter software is confusing/hard to learn or is a pain in the ass to use I want to know.  It's no good having someone say "it's great" "it's easy to use" "it's easy to get along with" " it works every time" " you will never need anything else" them when you buy you find it just not.


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## alloy (Aug 5, 2020)

I'm glad you appreciated my response.  If it was me looking at the software I would someone to tell about their experience also.

I truly wish I could have given it a positive review,  but that was not our experience with it.


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## rick-b (Aug 6, 2020)

Thanks, I will keep looking around at the moment the machine is just sitting there not getting used. I just don't have the time to try hand-coding big jobs. I have done a few small hand-coded runs but they were very small only a few lines at most.


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## spumco (Aug 6, 2020)

Lathe computer died, so I'm stuck for a while.  No more Kipware testing while I get the PC sorted out.

Once it's back in business I'll ty to provide some updates - good or bad.


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## rick-b (Aug 8, 2020)

Spumco, that's not good to hear hope your back up and running soon. In the meantime, I gave in and bought The T and XC software and I'm not off to a good start, time will tell if it gets better.


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## spumco (Aug 8, 2020)

Lathe ran off a WinXP PC, connected to another motion control PC in the back of the machine.  XP PC was DOA when I got it, and I wanted a 'do-everything' setup that could have F360, internet, and run the old Emco lathe control (WinNC).

Sadly, running XP in a virtual machine under Win8.1 wasn't stable enough.  Kept losing connection to the USB-connected main control panel.  While the software works (I think) under Win7, the replacement computer I bought can't run Win7 due to drivers and so forth.

So I bit the bullet and bought an older Wyse Thin Client with Win7 Embedded already on it and will run the lathe from that  It will have the Emco/Fanuc control software and nothing else.  Newer computer will still have 8.1, F360, Kipware, and whatever else I want - but the lathe itself will now be air-gapped, using USB drive to transfer programs.

Probably safer & more stable this way.


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## rick-b (Aug 8, 2020)

The USB will be a better way to go. I know when I changed my miller over to just being able to plug in a USB it was so much easier.

Well, I emailed Kipware about my problem. Given the time difference, they got back fairly quickly with some ideas. That's a good start.


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## rick-b (Aug 12, 2020)

Well, I'm 5 days into having the KipwareT and XC software and I must say they have bent over backwoods to help me with the problems I'm having with XC they even did a new video for T using one of my parts and that helped a lot.

Unfortunately, we have hit a roadblock with XC. No one can make heads nor tails of how threading works on this lathe I have. The manual is ridiculously hard to understand and makes a Fanuc manual look like a kids book. 

After 2 or 3 pages of howto, this is the code in the book they show you.

N0010 P10=2 P11=0
N0020 G00 X100 Z100
N0030 G00 X50 Z1
N0040 G86 Z50 K1 R1 I6 L5
N0050 G00 X100 Z100
N0060 M02


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## spumco (Aug 13, 2020)

rick-b said:


> N0040 G86 Z50 K1 R1 I6 L5



Is there an explanation - however convoluted - of the K/R/I/L words?

What exactly is the control?

Oh, new lathe PC arrived not DOA.  Maybe back in business tomorrow - fingers crossed and I can get back to trying out the Kipware stuff.


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## rick-b (Aug 14, 2020)

Good to hear on the PC.

My controller is a WA-31DT. Here the pages from the manual.


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## JimDawson (Aug 14, 2020)

rick-b said:


> Good to hear on the PC.
> 
> My controller is a WA-31DT. Here the pages from the manual.



That explanation in the manual makes my head hurt.


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## rick-b (Aug 15, 2020)

Yer mine too.


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## spumco (Aug 15, 2020)

O.M.G.  That may be the worst translation I've ever seen.  It doesn't even have the typically amusing chinglish phrases.

Time to retrofit.  It will take less effort than getting that controller figured out and tamed.

Linux + LinuxCNC + Mesa ethernet card w/ built-in BOB.

There are other controllers, of course, but for a lathe I think that'd do the trick cheap and fairly easy.


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## rick-b (Aug 15, 2020)

Yep, it's a shocker!  And yes changing the controller was something I was contemplating, so much so  I have a new GSK controller sitting here for it. But I got cold feet as electronics is far from my strong suit and I thought I would give this controller ago again.


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## spumco (Aug 15, 2020)

rick-b said:


> I thought I would give this controller ago again.



Just don't.

Fit the GSK, or a LinuxCNC, or something else.  We'll help you out with that - there are some rather clever and patient folks here and on other forums.

There are ZERO helpful and patient people anywhere familiar with that Chungking Washing Machine thing you've got.

Leverage the resources available to you.


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## spumco (Aug 15, 2020)

I mean - look at this.  This is a new Linux lathe interface ('probe basic').  Who wouldn't want this?

I think the lathe GUI is still in development, but...  wow.  Free.


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## rick-b (Aug 25, 2020)

spumco said:


> I mean - look at this.  This is a new Linux lathe interface ('probe basic').  Who wouldn't want this?
> 
> I think the lathe GUI is still in development, but...  wow.  Free.
> 
> View attachment 333875


Haven't had time this week to even look at the machine or the software. But I'm thinking its time to bite the bullet and change the controller
This is the lathe.


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## spumco (Aug 25, 2020)

That's pretty swank.  It looks like it was made for that GSK controller you've got.

I haven't had time to fiddle with Kipware in quite some time.  Working out the bugs on a custom F360 post I'm having written.  Live tool C-axis control is not dirt simple for a lathe novice...


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## rick-b (Aug 26, 2020)

spumco said:


> That's pretty swank.  It looks like it was made for that GSK controller you've got.
> 
> I haven't had time to fiddle with Kipware in quite some time.  Working out the bugs on a custom F360 post I'm having written.  Live tool C-axis control is not dirt simple for a lathe novice...


Yer, it's not a bad little machine that's why I jumped on it. But at the moment I have decided to put the kipware software to the side and concentrate on fitting the new controller. I started thinking, getting the software to work with this controller was harder than doing the install.


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## rick-b (Mar 1, 2021)

Well, I retrofitted my controller and I'm back on the KipwareT again. And as before still hitting my head up against a brick wall!

Anyone else using it with success?


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## GaryLa (Mar 1, 2021)

spumco said:


> I mean - look at this.  This is a new Linux lathe interface ('probe basic').  Who wouldn't want this?
> 
> I think the lathe GUI is still in development, but...  wow.  Free.



Looks very much like the graphics used on Tormach's mill. Is it a python script?


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## rick-b (Mar 1, 2021)

That is exactly the problems I am finding. I find it ends up way quicker to just do the part in a cad program and cam it!


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## GaryLa (Mar 2, 2021)

rick-b said:


> That is exactly the problems I am finding. I find it ends up way quicker to just do the part in a cad program and cam it!



After I uninstalled KipWareT, I found a program called eCam. It's from Italy. It's a commercial program but unlocks itself on weekends. I did end up buying it.

It's not perfect but once you get the hang of it, it seems to put out good G-code. I've used VCarve to generate outlines for eCam.

I bring it in as a DXF and then identify the outline to eCam. From there, I assign my tools and pick the cutting routines. I found it's best to use it in the order they want. Out of order seems to make a mess. Or maybe I'm missing something in the translation.


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## rick-b (Mar 2, 2021)

I thinking I am just going to give up altogether with KipwareT and just count that money lost.
 I  will have a look at that one. This is one I found the other day, but I haven't tried it yet


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## GaryLa (Mar 3, 2021)

That's the one from CNC Zone?

I thought it was no longer supported/fixed. If it's still being developed, I wouldn't mind giving it a try, too.

BTW, this is the link for eCam: https://v4.e-cam.it/article/20-download

As I said, it completely unlocks on the weekend. IIRC, it must be able to access the internet on boot. I think it wants to get the time/day from the internet versus your PC.

I bought the complete package, although I haven't used it for any milling. I've been using VCarve for that along with either LinuxCNC or UCCNC.


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## rick-b (Mar 7, 2021)

Yes, it looks like it is the same one on CNC Zone. Not too sure about the support, I will look into that. I only come across it because someone sent me a link to the youtube videos. Had a quick play with it on the weekend seams ok looks way easier to work out than the KipwareT I have. Plus it has a fully printable user manual!


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## GaryLa (Mar 7, 2021)

I'll have a try, too. I don't mind this eCam, though. I've been getting used to it.


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## Dabbler (Mar 11, 2021)

@GaryLa and @rick-b and @blueerchip you have all had your say. 

This discussion requires knowledge of details of operation and failure cases that is outside of the scope of the average user.  This is rapidly turning into a he said - she said kind of argument.  This is not going to help anybody.  

Further complaint and or elaboration is not encouraged.  If it steps into the realm of trolling, which it is getting perilously close to, sanctions will be considered.  

If any of the participants disagree with this note, then PM me and I'd be happy to discuss.


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