# dating an older south bend?



## rambin

trying to date and get some info on a newly purchased lathe,  just bought it, first lathe don't know much about lathes to be honest just know I needed one! I believe it to be a southbend 9 b or c?   only numbers I find under the tailstock are 2646. it was painted green at some point unfortunately and any other markings were removed?
hopefully later today I can throw up some pics if its not to complicated to do on here? im in the process of doing some light cleaning/degreasing on it. wont be doing much to serious on it until winter.

It came with a 4jaw so im in need of a 3 jaw and some other things as well.


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## Dave Paine

Start with this page.

http://www.southbendlathe.com/older-machines/serial-numbers
Also can look at the link for new database in this page.

http://www.wswells.com/sn/sn_index.html

Posting pictures should be straight forward.  Click on the "Upload a File" button in the lower left.


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## silverhawk

Your serial number will be on the top side of the bed ways at the right, front corner (under the tailstock side). This is what you will need. The links in the previous post will get you close to a manufacturing date, but if you need more specific, Grizzly offers a service where they will look up the exact date. I used the service. It gave me the full model number, the date of sale, and who it was sold to (not all will get the buyer name).  Mine was a Junior lathe sold in January of 1930.

Get your serial number first, as you cannot do much else without it. In fact, your history search will be dead in the water with out it.  The following link may help you find it if the above description doesn't help.  For the example of the serial card I received from Grizzly, see :

http://www.silverhawk.net/2015/11/new-south-bend-9x19-lathe.html


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## rambin

silverhawk in my initial post I put the serial number that I found under the tailstock.. 2646 no letters.  here are some pics... notice where the on/off switch was once located to the left of the chuck in the casting...  can anyone give me any info on this model?


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## kd4gij

You want to DATE your lathe?


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## silverhawk

rambin said:


> silverhawk in my initial post I put the serial number that I found under the tailstock.. 2646 no letters.  here are some pics... notice where the on/off switch was once located to the left of the chuck in the casting...  can anyone give me any info on this model?



I had assumed that was a casting number of the tailstock or bed, simply because it is a four digit number.  If that is indeed the serial number, your lathe is circa 1913/1914. By 1920, serial numbers were five digits.  In the case of a 1913/1914, it will NOT fit anything 9/10k that you see on eBay, as yours is considered a "heavy 9", or a "wide 9". The bed will be closer to a 10L (also called a "heavy 10"), but not everything is interchangeable. You may find a 9" "Junior" to be what you have.

In your pictures, I do not see the serial number stamped into the ways. When we get to prior to 1925, my knowledge vaporizes.

The 9/10k lathes started to come into being during the depression when South Bend was trying to stay in business.  Mid 30's saw gear pitches change from 16dp to 18dp, bed widths reduced to save costs, the introduction of new "economical" casting materials, and changes to the finishes (expensive "japanning" finishes were replaced).

The late 30's saw other changes such as bore sizes of gears. These are advertised as the "new tool room lathes", and these are what the 9 a/b/c models are compatible with.

Typically, the gear cover would have a brass plate indicating the model. The serial numbers prior to the new tool room lathes did not include any model information, so a serial will only help to contact Grizzly. They would possibly be able to look up the serial and email  you a scan of the model card that South Bend had. To me, it was a $25 charge for some good information, as they also had a copy of the ledger sale. It was worth it because I did not have the brass tag, and told me what I needed to get parts on eBay. Richard, the individual handling that for Grizzly, is a good guy to work with.


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## silverhawk

What kinds of bearings in the headstock? That will help ID it. Babbit bearings came into play early 30's, and prior they were an Oillite bronze. One thing I did not know was that some had steel bearings. I do not know when those were manufactured, but the thrust bearings and the like came into being for 9" lathes later on.

Also, from the pictures, I am not so sure it is a 1913. It looks to be about 1940's, so we will need some other folks to chime in.


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## rambin

silverhawk  as you can see I tried to take a pic of the numbers in the bed/ways but they didn't show in the picture.  they are quite legible there by eye though and theres only 4 numbers no letters...the name plate/serial # plate is long gone as someone has painted this thing at some point.  this is my first lathe I was hoping to hear I had found a gem but it sounds like it could be an antique...  any info you people can give me on this model I would appreciate.. I need to get the 4 jaw off and get my hands on a 3 jaw? but I don't know what size or type to buy.... as I said im new to all this but ive been needing a lathe in the shop for a long time so im hoping this is at least a useable machine


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## rambin

silver to be honest I wouldn't know babbit from iolite other then I guess the coloring?  if more pictures would help just let me know what ya need to see...  the more I look at the machine the more fixes/patches I find... kinda disappointing


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## Dave Paine

rambin said:


> I need to get the 4 jaw off and get my hands on a 3 jaw? but I don't know what size or type to buy....



You need to remove the 4 jaw chuck so that you can find out the spindle thread size and pitch.  I am presuming the lathe uses a threaded spindle.   This was common for many decades.  My Heavy 10 has 2 1/4in dia x 8 tpi threads.

The style of chuck our lathes use is called a "plain back".  You may be able to find a chuck back which is machined for your spindle diameter and thread.  If your spindle is unusual, then you will need to find a chuck back which is not machined.  You would then need to drill and tap to match your spindle.

I do not know sources of chucks in Canada.  Likely one source is Ebay Canade.

Getting the present chuck off can be a challenge.  Many a lathe has broken back gears due to the back gears being engaged to "lock" the chuck in order to remove.  Try to avoid this.  You may be able to clamp on the cone pulleys.  I have lots of woodworking clamps so I clamped across a cone pulley and the belt.  Worked for me, but I may have been lucky.  Good luck.


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## silverhawk

The only way to identify the model from the serial number when the lathe is that old is to contact Grizzly.  Here is where you can order the information :

http://www.grizzly.com/brands/south-bend-lathe/serialcard

It may take a while.  In the previous links sent there is an example of what you would receive.  That serial card should list a model and bed length designation.  From that model information you receive from Grizzly, we should be able to help with more information, or you may find that on the vintage machinery site in the old South Bend catalogs.

Dave Paine is right on when it comes to the spindle, if that is all you need to know.  I do not know if you also received the change gears, or anything else with it.  If you did, you scored a nice piece of machinery.

Again, model information can come from Grizzly and will likely be the most helpful.  To me, that was a very valuable $25.


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## markba633csi

Are you sure that's a South Bend? It looks more like one of the Wards/Logan models (tapered roller bearings in the headstock)
MS


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## Technical Ted

markba633csi said:


> Are you sure that's a South Bend? It looks more like one of the Wards/Logan models (tapered roller bearings in the headstock)
> MS



I was wondering the exact same thing.... Look at this video from Tubal Cain. It shows his Logan and it looks just like it! Go to 1:56






Ted


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## Charles Spencer

I've had four South Bend lathes.  They've all had feet like this:





I found a picture of a Logan.  The feet look similar to the picture above:


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## rambin

I posted this search in another forum and I got the same info that it was a mon/ward model and when I gooogled images of that its identical.... the guy I bought it from said it was a south bend and I took his word for it... first lathe didn't know any better  anyhow thanks for the info....and if anyone has any information on these ...id appreciate  it...


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## LucknowKen

rambin said:


> this is my first lathe I was hoping to hear I had found a gem but it sounds like it could be an antique...  any info you people can give me on this model I would appreciate.. I need to get the 4 jaw off and get my hands on a 3 jaw? but I don't know what size or type to buy.... as I said im new to all this but ive been needing a lathe in the shop for a long time so im hoping this is at least a usable machine


Logan makes a great lathe. I do not see a QCGB in your picture. Did your machine come with any change gears? Accessories? 
That can really add to the cost of lathe owership. Congratulations on your new machine.


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## rambin

no quick change, came with a 4 jaw no 3jaw though... face plate a few dogs, few cutting tools, drill chuck for the tail stock, and quite a few loose change gears, not sure if there all there or not....until I get a model on this its hard to know!


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## rambin

ive reposted this in the logan section still hoping for  more info on this


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## Dave Paine

rambin said:


> no quick change, came with a 4 jaw no 3jaw though... face plate a few dogs,



If you have a faceplate then you can measure the diameter and thread so you would know what to look for if you want to purchase a 3 jaw chuck.


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## rambin

I'd like to take the 4 jaw off...whose to say the face plate fits on there or its something that was collected with the lathe over the years...  anyhow I gotta look into how to take it off then I can look into 3 jaws...


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## Technical Ted

Check out this video. I strongly suggest you don't use the back gears to lock the spindle from revolving while removing. It's OK to do so for a chuck that is not stuck, but if it's stuck, don't do it! You'll most likely break some teeth out of the gears.






Good luck!
Ted


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