# Newbie: Need Help Setting Up Overhead Ram Support Van Norman 16 Mill



## Bob V (Sep 16, 2015)

Hi,
I'm new to milling-- have done some car/truck/farm repairs-- but just bought a Van Norman 16 mill last April and am finally getting around to getting it going and have made a few chips.
I'm trying to figure out how to set up the overhead ram support for horizontal milling:
--The picture shows the "Pilot-type Arbor Support" that goes on a large ram and I have learned this is to support the outer end of the spindle when doing horizontal milling (hope this is correct!!).  The smaller hole (.715")  in the arbor support  is a bushing on bearings-- and this, I think somehow supports the outer end (with the nut) of the other tool in the picture that is chucked in the spindle when horizontal.  The tool that chucks into the spindle (with the nut on one end) has a one inch diameter with a keyway (.250").

I seem to be missing some pieces in this puzzle: 1) If a saw-type slot cutter is mounted on the one inch shaft-- shouldn't it have bushings on one/both sides to stabilize it along the shaft-- then tighten the nut on the end?  If so, what are these called if I want to order some from a tooling supplier?
2) Some sort of shaft must go in the .715" hole in the Pilot Arbor Support to provide support to the outer end of the 1" shaft.  The end of the 1" shaft looks like it takes a "center"/cone shaped tool that I am missing. What is this piece called and would a tool supplier have this or do I have to wait until I get a  lathe and make one myself? (after I learn how to run a metal lathe!!

--Am I on the right track??
Thanks in advance,
Bob


----------



## Reeltor (Sep 16, 2015)

I don't know much about the model 16; it looks like it takes a VN "C" taper.  My 22l takes a NMTB50 taper and the end of the "A" type arbor is turned down to fit the hole in the Arbor Support.
I am attaching the accessories catalog, look at page 24 (page number printed on the page not the page number from the viewer) to see the model 16 arbor.  If I had to venture a guess, I think the arbor that you have is not designed to use a arbor support.


----------



## Bill C. (Sep 16, 2015)

Vanderlinde said:


> Hi,
> I'm new to milling-- have done some car/truck/farm repairs-- but just bought a Van Norman 16 mill last April and am finally getting around to getting it going and have made a few chips.
> I'm trying to figure out how to set up the overhead ram support for horizontal milling:
> --The picture shows the "Pilot-type Arbor Support" that goes on a large ram and I have learned this is to support the outer end of the spindle when doing horizontal milling (hope this is correct!!).  The smaller hole (.715")  in the arbor support  is a bushing on bearings-- and this, I think somehow supports the outer end (with the nut) of the other tool in the picture that is chucked in the spindle when horizontal.  The tool that chucks into the spindle (with the nut on one end) has a one inch diameter with a keyway (.250").
> ...




Try searching this web site; http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_M16.htm  He has a photo of your support arm.


----------



## Bob V (Sep 17, 2015)

Reeltor,
Thanks very much -- especially for the  Van Norman Catalog of Arbor Accessories-- that was very helpful in identifying some of the other arbors I have as well as sorting out the one in the picture.
--I think you are right-- (my mill takes Van Norman "C" taper- also called 5V).  
As you noted, on page 24 of the pdf you sent, the bottom arbor for MODEL 16, and this has the pilot end 23/32" -- my arbor in the picture does not have the pilot end.
Do you have any idea where I could find any of the pilot arbors for my machine listed at the bottom of page 24?
Also, since you have a VN mill do you happen to have the press-in Bijur oil sight glass inserts?  A couple of mine are so dark I can't see the oil levels.
Many thanks.

Bill C.
Thanks-- I see the support arm pic, but I don't see the arbor that goes into it.  BTW, unfortunately the guy that runs that website sold out last July-- auctioned off all the Van Norman parts he used to sell-- too bad.


----------



## Bob V (Sep 17, 2015)

Reeltor,
A couple other questions:  can you give me some idea how to order spacers for the shank arbors that I do have, and maybe where to order them from?
Do you have any other literature on Van Norman mills/accessories-- your last posted pdf was, as I said, very helpful.
Thanks again,
Bob
PS Forgot to include the pic of the Bijor oil site glass-- mine look like the middle one-


----------



## Reeltor (Sep 17, 2015)

Vanderlinde said:


> Reeltor,
> 
> As you noted, on page 24 of the pdf you sent, the bottom arbor for MODEL 16, and this has the pilot end 23/32" -- my arbor in the picture does not have the pilot end.
> Do you have any idea where I could find any of the pilot arbors for my machine listed at the bottom of page 24?
> ...



I don't know of a supplier of the arbors other than searching on Ebay.  I too have dark sight glass on my mill, every once in a while, I will drain the oil into a clean stainless steel pot, measure it and put the correct amount back into the mill.
I did come across a supplier for the sight glass, let me do some searching.

For your arbor spacers, the trick is to find out what the suppliers are calling them.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=477&PARTPG=INLMK32

This is from Enco, you can usually get a free shipping code and every once in a while a 15-25% off code too.
I think the arbor that you have is a stub arbor, because it looks so short.  What does it measure and can you take some better photos?  More detail, would help me at least see what you have.

BTW, better samples of the catalog and user manual for the VN16 can be found on Mr. Keith Rucker's Vintage Machinery site http://www.vintagemachinery.org/


----------



## Bob V (Sep 17, 2015)

Reeltor,
Thanks again.
I've identified some of the arbors I have in the catalog you posted above- thanks.  The one inch tool shank is about 3 1/2" long--maybe 4".
Here are some more photos of the arbor I was discussing when I started this thread--Is this a "Stub arbor" used for horizontal milling without the overarm support??
Can you tell me where I would use the "centers"?  -- don't know if that's what they're called but they are collets with a cone on the end--

Bob


----------



## Bob V (Sep 23, 2015)

New guy here-
Hope I didn't offend anyone with the above post----- I was getting great replies/info until  I posted the above with the pics--no replies!!
Please help with the above post-- or tell me why someone is offended.
Thanks,
Bob


----------



## Reeltor (Sep 23, 2015)

No offense taken, I didn't answer because I don't know the answer.  Maybe Cal Haynes can chime in and give some insight.  
It is my understanding that a stub arbor is not supported on the end.  You can chuck it up in the spindle and then use it in either the vertical or horizontal position.  Because it isn't supported I'd guess you couldn't take a huge cut in one pass.  I don't have any (stub arbors) and will need to make some to hold saws etc.  Many of us cant get into the site every day or even once a week so don't sweat not getting a quick response.  If after a while you don't get a reply you may want to bump the thread up by asking for help


----------



## JimDawson (Sep 23, 2015)

Vanderlinde said:


> New guy here-
> Hope I didn't offend anyone with the above post----- I was getting great replies/info until  I posted the above with the pics--no replies!!
> Please help with the above post-- or tell me why someone is offended.
> Thanks,
> Bob




If you don't get an answer, it normally means that nobody who has looked at your post knows the answer.  Sometimes it takes a little time.

I don't know the answers to your questions either.
.

.


----------



## Bob V (Sep 23, 2015)

Thanks!!
Will wait to see if anyone else chimes in.
Bob


----------



## Jason Annen (Sep 23, 2015)

The arbor pictutred appears to have a center cut in it, correct?  It looks like this arbor should be used with the ram support.

As for the 2 dead centers, they would be used typically on a dividing head to hold a part with a dog used to turn the part.  Check the accessories catalog under the 10" dividing head page for an example.  I can't imagine ever needing more than one at a time.

Also, it may help to post VN stuff in the VN forum, as I only look at a few specific places, generally.

Jason

Jason


----------



## Reeltor (Sep 23, 2015)

Jason Annen said:


> The arbor pictutred appears to have a center cut in it, correct?  It looks like this arbor should be used with the ram support.
> 
> _As for the 2 dead centers, they would be used typically on a dividing head to hold a part with a dog used to turn the part.  Check the accessories catalog under the 10" dividing head page for an example.  I can't imagine ever needing more than one at a time._
> 
> ...


Since these dead centers are in V2 tapers, for the spindle I would agree.  Not knowing how the previous owners' used the centers maybe they rigged up something to use on the arbor support.  Some older arbor supports used a dead center on the support and held onto the arbor through friction.

There has gotta be some photos around somewhere...  Look at the Model 12 on page 10 part number J-224 is a dead center that is used in the arbor support.  Could your parts be the same?


----------



## Jason Annen (Sep 23, 2015)

Those pics are of the VN C taper, or Hardinge 5v.  The dead center on the VN 12 support is not a C taper, I think is just straight.  I'll do some digging latter on.

Jason


----------



## Jason Annen (Sep 23, 2015)

Here is my arbor setup on my 12.




Jason


----------



## Bob V (Sep 24, 2015)

Jason and Reeltor,
Thanks very much for the input--I'm getting some of it figured out --thanks to you guys.

You're right-- the dead centers have a Van Norman C (V5) taper- just like my spindle--that's what confused me, because I couldn't see the point in chucking the dead center in the spindle. The pictures in the Van Norman "Attachments Arbors Accessories" Catalog, on page 1&2 (I attached the pages) show vertical and horizontal dividing heads--honestly I can't picture in my head exactly how these would work with my mill-- but dead centers are chucked in the spindle in the pictures--as you guys suggested-- so probably these are of little/no use to me since I don't have a Dividing head.

Jason: the arbor I have (pictured above) does have a dead center milled in the end of it-- so if I can get a dead center in the overarm support, the overarm would work to support the arbor for horizontal cutting.  The arbor that is intended to work with the overhead is the middle one on the last pdf page below called "Pilot Type Style "C" Shank Arbor for Model No 16".  The has a pilot straight shaft on the end that is 23/32" and this would fit perfectly  in my live bearing in the overhead arm.

Anyways, thanks to both of you for the help-- eventually I'll get the stub arbor I have to work with the overhead arm with the live center pilot hole.
Much appreciated.
Bob


----------



## Jason Annen (Sep 24, 2015)

The dividing head would be considered an accessory, used to cut keyways, gears, angles, and anything else that would need to be at a precise angle.

I would be interested in one of those centers if your wanting to sell or trade one of them off.

On the ram support, it would probably be pretty easy to make a center to work. Chances of finding one are going to be slim, but possible.

Jason


----------



## Bob V (Sep 24, 2015)

Jason,
Sure I'll sell you one of them--
I'll be out of action until next Monday-- babysitting my two grandchildren (ages 1 and 5) with my wife-- harder than a real job!!
I'll get back to you.
Thanks for the info.
Bob


----------



## Bob V (Sep 24, 2015)

Jason,
I will sell the center to you, but I was just thinking that a trade might be better for both of us.
Do you have some tooling lying around that you don't need that a rookie like me might need/want?
Bob


----------



## Jason Annen (Sep 25, 2015)

Let's take this part of the conversation to private messages.

Jason


----------



## Bob V (Sep 25, 2015)

Jason Annen said:


> Let's take this part of the conversation to private messages.
> 
> Jason


Ok, how do I do that?


----------



## Jason Annen (Sep 25, 2015)

Click on your name, then select conversations.  You should see my name with a message.

Jason


----------



## Arrak Thumrs (Sep 25, 2015)

Stub arbors are just another option in the toolbox for when an overarm is either impossible or unnecessarily inconvenient.

They're particularly useful for slitting saws or other small features that may require spacing a little from the spindle face for clearance but don't require additional support.  If a formed milling cutter (i.e. concave, convex, single or double angle) needs to be angled in a vertical head, a stub arbor is perhaps your only option.  Mounting the work angled instead of the cutter may be difficult or inaccessible or present other obstacles.


----------



## Bob V (Sep 25, 2015)

Thank you, Arrak,
That's what  I suspected, but it's nice to know from someone who _really_ knows what's up.


----------

