# Bill M's Pm1340gt Setup



## wrmiller

Well, I thought I'd go ahead and start a setup thread with a few pics for those of you who like 'em. 

This is the 3-phase motor and it's bruised fan cover. Can't tell if the fan itself or the motor is damaged. Will tear into it tomorrow to see how bad it is.







Here's a shot with the top off the crate. Lathe was undamaged thankfully.






A frontal shot with the sides of the crate removed. Assembled stand in the background.






Here she is on her stand. After wrestling with El Hefe this was almost a non-event. I used a long 10000lb. rated strap and started at the hoist's hook, then down through the bed hole closest to the headstock, then down and around the base/foot under the headstock (taking care to stay away from anything bendable/breakable) then back up through the same hole in the bed, up through the hoist hook then down to the bed hole closest to the apron/saddle, then back to the hook. used one small strap around the tool post just to keep her level (very little effort/load on this strap) and lifted her up. Pretty simple actually. Sorry, I should have taken a pic when she was rigged but I forgot.






And here she is sitting pretty and ready to get cleaned. Man they really slathered this goop on here. I'll be all weekend just getting this stuff out of every nook and cranny.





All for now. I'm going to go have a snort of scotch now to celebrate.


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## brav65

Looks great Bill, congratulations!


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## coolidge

She looks real nice Bill congrats. I like those leveling pads does it feel stable or tippy? What is that big square thing on the left side of the on/off shaft up against the head stock? Also why isn't there a 671 blower sticking out the hood of that Camaro? And damn that motor took a hit freaking trucking companies


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## leroy

Looks good Bill ! At least your ways were not dinged up. Just want to know if they give you a spec sheet with all the actual readings of what's allowed from the factory and how your own lathe checks out like grizzly does. Actually my grizzly is still in the crate with the lid off . You veteran guys on here post pics so quick . Is that camaro a 2 SS in the back. I have a black 2 SS 6spd with ground effects a real fun car . Keep up the great progress with lots a photos !!


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## GA Gyro

Looks great Bill... you are farther along than I am.  
Your cabinets came painted blue... mine is dark grey.
Sorry your motor is dinged up... hope the fan is not.  If so... maybe you can get the parts from the existing 1PH motor.
And yeah... they use a freakin' amount of cosmoline on the lathe... probably good, as a ride across the ocean could leave rust spots.

My stand is mostly done, hope to get the lathe on the stand this weekend.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> She looks real nice Bill congrats. I like those leveling pads does it feel stable or tippy? What is that big square thing on the left side of the on/off shaft up against the head stock? Also why isn't there a 671 blower sticking out the hood of that Camaro? And damn that motor took a hit freaking trucking companies



I really do like these TE-CO leveling pads. I think it was Mike who told me about these. And the lathe feels very stable, but not sure it's because of the 3.5" feet. Could be. The Big Square Thing is likely the fwd/off/rev switch. Will know more when I start taking the stock wiring apart. LOL...not all blowers stick out of the hood.   And yea the motor took a pretty good hit but it wasn't all the trucking company's fault as the box was left separate with no hold-down strap or anything. 




leroy said:


> Looks good Bill ! At least your ways were not dinged up. Just want to know if they give you a spec sheet with all the actual readings of what's allowed from the factory and how your own lathe checks out like grizzly does. Actually my grizzly is still in the crate with the lid off . You veteran guys on here post pics so quick . Is that camaro a 2 SS in the back. I have a black 2 SS 6spd with ground effects a real fun car . Keep up the great progress with lots a photos !!



The spec sheets are part of the user manual, in the back. I haven't started checking specs yet, as I need to get her cleaned up, the motor (hopefully) installed, install the DRO and start looking at the electrics and what I have to do there. I won't even bother to level it until I get it to it's final resting spot. The Camaro is a 2011 2SS/RS with some minor mods.


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## wrmiller

GA Gyro said:


> Looks great Bill... you are farther along than I am.
> Your cabinets came painted blue... mine is dark grey.
> Sorry your motor is dinged up... hope the fan is not.  If so... maybe you can get the parts from the existing 1PH motor.
> And yeah... they use a freakin' amount of cosmoline on the lathe... probably good, as a ride across the ocean could leave rust spots.
> 
> My stand is mostly done, hope to get the lathe on the stand this weekend.



No, the stand is grey. It's just the lighting I guess (is the dress blue or gold? LOL...)


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## GA Gyro

wrmiller19 said:


> No, the stand is grey. It's just the lighting I guess (is the dress blue or gold? LOL...)



THX Bill... After posting... thought about camera and lighting.  

I think that little box on the lower rod to the carriage, at the bottom right of the headstock, is where the 'forward/off/reverse' switch is... I noticed on mine there is a wire going to the box and back to the elec pane.


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## johnwell

Congrats, Bill!
Just think of all that cosmoline crap as...."it has a purpose...,it has a purpose...it has a purpose..., and you'll be fine...hehheh 

John


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## catoctin

Bill it's great to see you finally got your lathe.  Sorry to hear about the shipping damage on the motor.    Where exactly was it in the packaging?   It looks likes Matt is going to have to spring for a metal banding machine to old things down in the future.  He will make this right I'm sure.

Joe


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## zmotorsports

Bill, the lathe looks great.  Sorry, I have been so busy lately I haven't been on the forum much but I had to check in and see if your lathe showed up yet.

Glad to see you received it and you are able to get it set up.

Mike.


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## wrmiller

catoctin said:


> Bill it's great to see you finally got your lathe.  Sorry to hear about the shipping damage on the motor.    Where exactly was it in the packaging?   It looks likes Matt is going to have to spring for a metal banding machine to old things down in the future.  He will make this right I'm sure.
> 
> Joe



It was sitting loose on top of the lathe crate and didn't even have my name on it. The stand boxes were also loose and one was damaged but mostly superficial. I suspect it (motor) got launched into something hard.


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## coolidge

Yeah real hard like a fork lift fork. Only I don't see a hole in the box and I don't see the paint chips from the area that's scraped, its almost like it was not in the box when it was damaged. Meh just turn a new motor cover on the lathe out of 316 stainless.


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## wrmiller

zmotorsports said:


> Bill, the lathe looks great.  Sorry, I have been so busy lately I haven't been on the forum much but I had to check in and see if your lathe showed up yet.
> 
> Glad to see you received it and you are able to get it set up.
> 
> Mike.



Hey Mike! I was starting to worry...  

The setup is a 'work in progress', with emphasis on the work. I did manage to make some progress today in the cleanup. About the only thing left is the leadscrew and the whatever I make filthy trying to get that thing clean. I took the tool holder off and marveled at the t-nut and top slide. The sides and top of both are ground and it looks like it was done after the t-nut was installed in the top slide. 







The top of the t-nut is flush with the top of the top slide, and is held in place by two set screws (actually had to use some gentle taps from a dead-blow to get it out). Is it important to have the t-nut flush with the top of the top slide? Reason I ask is that the blank I received with my new QCTP is about 8 thou too short in that dimension. It is just barely long and wide enough.

I do like all the ground surfaces. Well, once you clean all the goop off of them. It is kinda like unwrapping a present at Christmas. 






Here's a shot of the latest progress.






Some things I've noted so far:

The tailstock doesn't support arbors with tangs on them very well. If you use one like the one I received, you loose 20mm right from the start.

The threading engagement lever almost took a sledge hammer to get working. I started squirting oil everywhere in there and have some really black stuff come out. I have managed to get it working but it is a 'very' positive effort to move it. An accompanying grunt does seem to help. The feed lever is much easier. However, both of these levers are a bit short for me. This first came to my attention as I was trying to disengage the threading half-nuts and promptly smashed my fingers into the apron leaving a bit of skin and blood. To keep a proper distance I can only grab the lever with two fingers and my thumb. Not much leverage given the effort required to move that thing.

The handles on the cross slide wheel and apron wheel are too short, scarred and otherwise look like they've had a very hard life. If you look at the last pic you will see that I tried one of my swivel handles from El Hefe and it works great. Looks like I'm going to be ordering a couple more of those things and putting them on the lathe. 

The feed/threading knob is very stiff and takes really good grip to move. The direction knob requires less effort but you can't just casually twist it either. I wish these things had levers on them like the spindle speed levers.

Had to tweak the micrometer stop a bit as it too was rather difficult to turn. Very grabby/gritty. Works better now.

I haven't even gotten to the motor yet, nor cracked open the electrical panel. But, all things considered I am liking this thing.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> Yeah real hard like a fork lift fork. Only I don't see a hole in the box and I don't see the paint chips from the area that's scraped, its almost like it was not in the box when it was damaged. Meh just turn a new motor cover on the lathe out of 316 stainless.



It looked like the box it came in had been re-taped. Twice.


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## darkzero

Wow, I never seen a T-nut for the compound with a better looking fit than that! I actually prefer my tool post T-nut to be on the tight side. Although it looks nice, when you go to fit your Dorian T-nut, be sure to make the T-nut's top surface sit a fair amount below the top surface of the compound slide. If you try to match them exactly, you may have headaches with lockup.

Looking great so far Bill, I'm sure everything will loosen up over time or is probably just a matter of slight adjusments. The detents like for the half nuts lever should have a spring so you can adjust the tension to your liking.


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## brav65

Machine looks beautiful Bill. Best part of the process is discovering how all the bits and pieces integrate...then get them adjusted correctly.  The finish on the ground surfaces looks amazing. Good work!  As always thanks for sharing your experiences..


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## wrmiller

darkzero said:


> Wow, I never seen a T-nut for the compound with a better looking fit than that! I actually prefer my tool post T-nut to be on the tight side. Although it looks nice, when you go to fit your Dorian T-nut, be sure to make the T-nut's top surface sit a fair amount below the top surface of the compound slide. If you try to match them exactly, you may have headaches with lockup.
> 
> Looking great so far Bill, I'm sure everything will loosen up over time or is probably just a matter of slight adjusments. The detents like for the half nuts lever should have a spring so you can adjust the tension to your liking.



Hey Will,

Yea I was really impressed with the t-nut fitment. Slight interference fit, with all surfaces ground flush. Can you elaborate on your comment about "lockup"? I don't understand and I would like to so I don't screw this up. Thanks.


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## zmotorsports

Bill, that surprises me about the threading lever and the leadscrew engagement lever, mine were smooth as silk and were free right out of the box.  My very first video even showed how smooth and fluid the levers and dials were and how easy it was to hit a target right on the money when boring to a shoulder.

As for the "T" nut on the compound slide, flush is ok but you just don't want it any taller or the QCTP won't lock down solid.  Trust me, I found out the hard way.  I used the original "T" nut with my Dorian QCTP for a while before I had a mill to machine the new "T" nut.  The POS cast "T" nut started to warp or flex upward over time and I had an issue with the toolpost moving but it was so slight it took me a bit to determine where the play was coming from.

I took the "T" nut out, touched it across the belt sander to remove a few thou and all was good again.  It was just enough that when the tooling touched against the work it would slowly move the toolpost.  It drove me "nuts" for a couple of nights until I got it figured out.  I then simply machined a new "T" nut using the tool steel base that the Dorian came with.  I too got mesmerized over the ground finish of the OEM "T" nut but trust me, toss it in favor of the Dorian blank and you will be much happier in the long run.

I ground my tangs on seveal of my drill chuck arbors as I wasn't willing to loose almost an inch of travel of my tailstock due to the shallow tang recepticle in the tailstock.  I ground them to where I only have about .125" from retracted when the arbor will pop free from the morse taper.

I haven't used my micrometer stop yet, I much prefer a "soft-stop" vs. the "hard-stop" variety.

Mike.


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## wrmiller

Thanks Mike. This helps. And I'm sure things will loosen up as I use it. 

I won't be threading to a shoulder any time soon though, as I feel like I'm about to pull the apron off the saddle when I try to disengage quickly.


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## mksj

My feed/threading knob had over spray and some leftover masking tape that made it hard to turn. Cleaned this up and some lubercation, after some use it became much easier to turn. My half nut was also a bit sticky and stiff to engage until I thoroughly cleaned everything and applied some light gear oil. Needs some TLC before everything operates smoothly. A word of caution when cleaning painted areas, I was using alcahol and it dissolved some of the paint. So just about any solvent will soften it.

The damage to the motor is a big disappointment as to the packaging and shipping, really need to do better. I also had sme damage due to poor packing, so not an isolated occurrence. Since you still have the single phase motor, are any of the damaged motor parts interchangeable with the 3 phase motor? Can you use the single phase motor for now?


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## darkzero

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey Will,
> 
> Yea I was really impressed with the t-nut fitment. Slight interference fit, with all surfaces ground flush. Can you elaborate on your comment about "lockup"? I don't understand and I would like to so I don't screw this up. Thanks.



Mike pretty much explain it but yeah, by lockup I mean the QCTP, the top nut. You can make it flush if you want be being anal here isn't going to benefit anything. Make it sit below the compound top surface, do it once, & you'll never have to worry about it again.

As far as cleaning the lathe, don't use solvents like degreaser, brake cleaner, alcohol based. I use WD-40, does a great job, how do you think I keep my lathe so clean.  That's all I use WD-40, cleaning & machining aluminum, that's just about all it's good for in my book.


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## wrmiller

mksj said:


> My feed/threading knob had over spray and some leftover masking tape that made it hard to turn. Cleaned this up and some lubercation, after some use it became much easier to turn. My half nut was also a bit sticky and stiff to engage until I thoroughly cleaned everything and applied some light gear oil. Needs some TLC before everything operates smoothly. A word of caution when cleaning painted areas, I was using alcahol and it dissolved some of the paint. So just about any solvent will soften it.
> 
> The damage to the motor is a big disappointment as to the packaging and shipping, really need to do better. I also had sme damage due to poor packing, so not an isolated occurrence. Since you still have the single phase motor, are any of the damaged motor parts interchangeable with the 3 phase motor? Can you use the single phase motor for now?



I've been cleaning all of the overspray on the knobs as I find it. How did you lubricate the feed/thread knob, just squirt a little oil on it?

How do I get to the half-nuts? I can see them behind the apron and squirted some oil back there, but I've never attempted to removed an apron that has power feed on it. Or did you just go at it from the back?

I have the single phase motor of course, and will take the three phase apart to determine the extent of the damage. The fan housings look identical from a glance. Hopefully when I hear from Matt he can give some suggestions.


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## wrmiller

darkzero said:


> Mike pretty much explain it but yeah, by lockup I mean the QCTP, the top nut. You can make it flush if you want be being anal here isn't going to benefit anything. Make it sit below the compound top surface, do it once, & you'll never have to worry about it again.
> 
> As far as cleaning the lathe, don't use solvents like degreaser, brake cleaner, alcohol based. I use WD-40, does a great job, how do you think I keep my lathe so clean.  That's all I use WD-40, cleaning & machining aluminum, that's just about all it's good for in my book.



Thanks. All I have used so far is WD-40. Good cutting fluid for aluminum, and it is good for removing that sticky stuff from labels and such.


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## mksj

The feed/thread knob was stiff because of the tape/paint. I cleaned it with a scalpel and some acetone (unpainted metal), then lubercated around the knob with hydraulic gear oil (20w). Cleaned the leads crew with a brass wire brush followed by a rag pushed into the tread while running the lead screw going end to end. Use some mineral spirits on the rag, then some 20w (iso68) oil on the rag. The half nut, pumped some of the same oil into the it with a  long nose oil can, then ran the lead screw with the hal nut engaged. Use ra rag to clean the lead screw as you run it.


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey Will,
> 
> Yea I was really impressed with the t-nut fitment. Slight interference fit, with all surfaces ground flush. Can you elaborate on your comment about "lockup"? I don't understand and I would like to so I don't screw this up. Thanks.



Bill imo the T nut and QCTP should >>pinch<< the compound, the top of the compound should be slightly higher than the top of the T nut to ensure this pinch. Just think how buff you'll get after a few months working those stiff levers, you'll have to adopt an Austrian accent and change your name to Billzenegger.


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## marcusp323

I got some measurements from Mike so I could mill my T-nut prior to my lathe arriving. Ended up needing to take a few thou off the top as I found that I could move it back & forth in the slot with the nut tightened. No big deal, no 2 machines are going to be exactly the same. My threading lever & fwd/rev dials are quite stiff also, hoping they'll loosen with use. Right now it's far too easy to get partial engagement & hear that dreaded gear clashing noise. Sometimes have to use the jog a couple times to ensure good engagement. My feed speed levers, on the other hand are almost too free. Very easy to overshoot where I want them too be positioned. End up using both hands & lots of finesse to get them in the right position.
Anxious to see pics of that motor. Surprised the stand wasn't banded on at least. Mine was. Steel straps even. Wish they'd done the same with that chuck...........
Mark


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## wrmiller

Love your avatar Mark. I have one very similarly marked. 

Not a great deal accomplished today. I hoisted the three phase motor up on the bench and removed the fan cover. There is a cheesy plastic fan in there that I doubt any impact would hurt, and there is no visible damage to the motor case anywhere. The motor shaft turns freely. So I think all I need to do is scavenge the fan cover from the single phase and swap the motor spec stickers.

I removed the gear cover from the left side of the lathe and cleaned the gears and started checking the drive belt this thing came with. When I was first attempting to turn the chuck it was really weird in that you could move the chuck a bit, release it, and it would promptly back up. Turning it more and I noticed definite 'humps' or areas that required additional force on the chuck to get it to turn. I loosened the tension bolt and tried to pivot the motor up so I could get the belt off and promptly ran into what appears to be one of the headstock adjustment screws. What's up with that? So I couldn't seem to get the belt off and in 'one of my moments' I pulled out the Cold Steel folder and solved the problem permanently. Didn't want that belt anyway after hearing the stories here. So I pulled out some linked belt I had in a drawer and make up a new belt that allows the motor to settle down a little further which makes belt changes easier but still allows the cover to be put back on. I don't recall exactly but I think I was in the 26-27" range with the last installed link. Now the chucks spins nicely. 

I removed the control panel on the front of the lathe to get a better look at this oiling system for the Norton gear box. Wow, is pretty much all I can say. I've already started a background process in the brain housing group to replace that with something that can more accurately and reliably deliver oil to the gears in the gearbox.


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## coolidge

Glad the motor is okay Bill, link belts


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## marcusp323

Hey Bill,
Got to dinkin' around with the threading lever & after oiling the crap out of it with no results, I pulled the threading dial for a better look. Found 3 hex screws behind there that appear to keep tension (too much in my case) on the half nuts. The larger one was kinda loose already, & when I tightened it the lever really got stiff. The top one didn't seem to do anything one way or another, but the bottom one, that was the key. Loosened it about 1/4 turn & now the lever moves quite freely. Might want to give it a shot. 
By the way, bought a Gates 6926 belt today & it fits perfect. Plenty of slack to swap between pulleys & the cover fits. Yay! Anybody want those 25 & 28 inch belts????? I'll send them to you FREE
Mark


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## wrmiller

Thanks Mark! Will check this tonight. After more tweaking my belt is now approximately 28" or so. Works great.


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## wrmiller

Mark was right! But for me it was the top screw instead of the bottom one. Regardless, once I properly adjusted those two screws and squirted a bit more oil in there the threading lever is now smoooooth... 

FYI for anyone getting their 1340GTs soon and have trouble with the threading engagement lever.


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## wrmiller

So I heard from Matt at PM: He was a bit shocked that the motor took that kind of hit. He then said he'd help with any parts I need (in the original mail I told him I was going to try to salvage it), but then said that because that looks pretty bad he should just send me a new motor. Just like that. 

So right after that I get a invoice marked 'Paid' for a new 3 phase motor. He said that he just received the next shipment of lathes and it make take him a bit to find it but he will send it out ASAP. How's that for customer service?


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## coolidge

Excellent!!


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## brav65

wrmiller19 said:


> So I heard from Matt at PM: He was a bit shocked that the motor took that kind of hit. He then said he'd help with any parts I need (in the original mail I told him I was going to try to salvage it), but then said that because that looks pretty bad he should just send me a new motor. Just like that.
> 
> So right after that I get a invoice marked 'Paid' for a new 3hp motor. He said that he just received the next shipment of lathes and it make take him a bit to find it but he will send it out ASAP. How's that for customer service?




... and that is why I like doing business with real people not huge corporations!  Matt just FedExed a replacement part to me because it slipped his mind and I waited a couple weeks. I was in no hurry but appreciated the effort.


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## darkzero

wrmiller19 said:


> So I heard from Matt at PM: He was a bit shocked that the motor took that kind of hit. He then said he'd help with any parts I need (in the original mail I told him I was going to try to salvage it), but then said that because that looks pretty bad he should just send me a new motor. Just like that.
> 
> So right after that I get a invoice marked 'Paid' for a new 3 phase motor. He said that he just received the next shipment of lathes and it make take him a bit to find it but he will send it out ASAP. How's that for customer service?


Yup, that's why I am loyal to Matt. The motor on mill died one day. I called him & he offered to send me a new motor without hesitation. Turns out it just blew a cap so I didn't need it.

I always say that Matt hooks me up. It's much more than thatt though. He's given me great discounts, free replacement parts (even when I broke something), & has even gave me free accessories when I called to simply purchase them. Some of which being high dollar items leaving me in shock (I'm still in shock & grateful), not even a charge for shipping. I probably should not mention publicly what those items were though, I'd be very jealous too.

My personal experience is not what I call excellent customer service, it's much more than that. Just the fact he remembers who I am when I call without having to give him my last name or address is awesome by itself, & it's not like I talk to him on a regular basis. Don't need no sticking coupon code with Matt, even if he did offer them I wouldn't care to even mention one. That's why I will always purchase my machines from him as first priority.


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## GA Gyro

Bill,  Sounds like Matt is taking care of you... which is the reason I prefer to buy a PM machine to others... even if I could save,say, $50 or $100... The customer service goes a L O N G way!

The Y sensor (?... on the carriage) on the DRO for my 1340GT does not work... need to send Matt an Email and ask him how he wants to handle it.


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## GA Gyro

wrmiller19 said:


> Love your avatar Mark. I have one very similarly marked.
> 
> Not a great deal accomplished today. I hoisted the three phase motor up on the bench and removed the fan cover. There is a cheesy plastic fan in there that I doubt any impact would hurt, and there is no visible damage to the motor case anywhere. The motor shaft turns freely. So I think all I need to do is scavenge the fan cover from the single phase and swap the motor spec stickers.
> 
> I removed the gear cover from the left side of the lathe and cleaned the gears and started checking the drive belt this thing came with. When I was first attempting to turn the chuck it was really weird in that you could move the chuck a bit, release it, and it would promptly back up. Turning it more and I noticed definite 'humps' or areas that required additional force on the chuck to get it to turn. I loosened the tension bolt and tried to pivot the motor up so I could get the belt off and promptly ran into what appears to be one of the headstock adjustment screws. What's up with that? So I couldn't seem to get the belt off and in 'one of my moments' I pulled out the Cold Steel folder and solved the problem permanently. Didn't want that belt anyway after hearing the stories here. So I pulled out some linked belt I had in a drawer and make up a new belt that allows the motor to settle down a little further which makes belt changes easier but still allows the cover to be put back on. I don't recall exactly but I think I was in the 26-27" range with the last installed link. Now the chucks spins nicely.
> 
> I removed the control panel on the front of the lathe to get a better look at this oiling system for the Norton gear box. Wow, is pretty much all I can say. *I've already started a background process in the brain housing group to replace that with something that can more accurately and reliably deliver oil to the gears in the gearbox.*



Definitely interested in what you come up with Bill... While I suspect the manufacturers idea works... I would like something a bit more substantial (if that is the right word).
Gonna think on this a bit myself.


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## GA Gyro

marcusp323 said:


> Hey Bill,
> Got to dinkin' around with the threading lever & after oiling the crap out of it with no results, I pulled the threading dial for a better look. Found 3 hex screws behind there that appear to keep tension (too much in my case) on the half nuts. The larger one was kinda loose already, & when I tightened it the lever really got stiff. The top one didn't seem to do anything one way or another, but the bottom one, that was the key. Loosened it about 1/4 turn & now the lever moves quite freely. Might want to give it a shot.
> *By the way, bought a Gates 6926 belt today & it fits perfect. Plenty of slack to swap between pulleys & the cover fits. Yay!* Anybody want those 25 & 28 inch belts????? I'll send them to you FREE
> Mark



THX Marcus...
Just put one in my cart at Amazon.  Probably process the order Friday evening, need to figure out a bunch of things tomorrow.


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## wrmiller

Hey John, you mean the long scale? That is Z in lathe parlance. Your crosslide is X. I think. Don't ask...I'm just repeating what I was told. 

Tomorrow I'm going to attempt to tackle the installation of this EL400 2-axis DRO for the lathe. Then the Dorian, then the Pratt. Busy weekend planned.


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## darkzero

Yup, Z is the the bed/ carriage, X is the cross slide but universal/mill DRO displays are almost always labelled X, Y.


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## zmotorsports

That is awesome on your motor Bill.  Matt has done good by me and although I only had one issue with a damaged part on my mill, he sent it out the day after I contacted him and three days later it was in a FedEx package on my doorstep.  Great customer service.

Mike.


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## GA Gyro

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey John, you mean the long scale? That is Z in lathe parlance. Your crosslide is X. I think. Don't ask...I'm just repeating what I was told.
> 
> Tomorrow I'm going to attempt to tackle the installation of this EL400 2-axis DRO for the lathe. Then the Dorian, then the Pratt. Busy weekend planned.



Yeah, I have read the 'discussions' of different lathe axis. 
The shop I worked in, back in the dark ages (1970's), did it the way I mentioned (this was before CNC arrived at that shop): 
Moving the cairrage left to right (from and to the chuck) is X... and
Moving the cross slide in and out (moving across the diameter of the chuck or part) is Y.

I am sure I am gonna start a firestorm... however I suspect there are folks who do it different ways.


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## darkzero

GA Gyro said:


> Yeah, I have read the 'discussions' of different lathe axis.
> The shop I worked in, back in the dark ages (1970's), did it the way I mentioned (this was before CNC arrived at that shop):
> Moving the cairrage left to right (from and to the chuck) is X... and
> Moving the cross slide in and out (moving across the diameter of the chuck or part) is Y.
> 
> *I am sure I am gonna start a firestorm... however I suspect there are folks who do it different ways.*



Doesn't really matter as long as the user knows what's what. 

As I mentioned, on a universal/mill DRO display, the axes are usually labeled X & Y, X on top for the cross slide, Y on bottom for the carriage on the display. I have a lathe specific DRO display & they are labeled X & Z, again X on top, Z on bottom. On lathe specific DROs, they usually have a button that allows you change from radius & diameter modes, this only works for the X axis. Universal/mill DROs can be set in the parameters to display either radius or diameter for each axis but I have seen a few with the radius/diameter button.

The way I learned it is the axes are in relation to the machine's spindle being Z.

Lathe




Vert mill



Horiz mill


----------



## GA Gyro

I see what you are saying Will... to standardize one would want the axis of the spindle (moving in line with the spindle) the same letter.  

I suspect this came along when CNC became widespread... because back in the totally manual days (at least at the shop I was at)... On a lathe what you are calling Z... was X.  And what you are calling X... was Y.  

This reminds me of something I saw happen in remodeling and home improvement:  A double door (two doors hinged at the far ends with the swings meeting in the center, and with 15 windows on each door) was always called a 'French Door'... until HD came along, and renamed it a '15 lite double door'.  Now it does not matter if one goes to HD or an old timey mill shop... nobody knows what the term 'French Door' means.  

Funny how things change... Personally, I prefer stability in terminology... but I know I am in the minority and being an 'old foggie' with that attitude.  

THX for the heads up on axis... however I think for now I am gonna stick with what I am used to.  If I ever get a CNC lathe... then I will learn a new trick...


----------



## darkzero

As I mentioned, doesn't matter as long as you know what's what. But to add, I wasn't speaking in relation to CNC. I have no experience with CNC. Whether or not NC machines played a role in this, what I posted is what I was taught for conventional machines. But then again I am much younger than you.


----------



## coolidge

Some CNC lathes today also have a Y axis typically for use with live tooling heads. Speaking of which, my brother just purchased a 6 tool live tooling head, holds 3 tools for the front spindle and 3 tools for the rear spindle...just the live tooling head was $8,000


----------



## wrmiller

So today I managed to get both scales installed on the lathe. I had to make a drill extension out of a piece from my 'spares' box to drill the bolt holes for the cross slide read head mount. I covered the cross slide scale but I can't figure out how I would do this for the Z axis scale as the mount for the head is in the way. Oh well, it's a magnetic scale anyway so it shouldn't be an issue. Will: do you have a cover on your Z axis scale?











FYI for those considering the DroPros EL400: the 8x40 kit fits perfectly. No scale cutting required.

Tomorrow I will mount the display and check the stock 3 jaw specs. Question? If the headstock is not parallel to the ways, how do I know which end of the headstock to tweak? And how many of the headstock screws should I loosen to tweak it? Or should I not even bother with this until I get the Pratt mounted?


----------



## coolidge

Regarding the Z scale cover...don't hate me...but move the Z scale up, mount the scale read head on top of the bracket not below it. (ducking)

That's a nice looking lathe by the way, I can't believe how flat the back of your casting is mine was all BOING bowed.


----------



## wrmiller

Oh crap...


----------



## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> That's a nice looking lathe by the way, I can't believe how flat the back of your casting is mine was all BOING bowed.



Thanks. Today as I was finishing up the long scale install I hauled the tailstock over to the bench to clean it up/inspect (might as well...seeing as I already had it off). The bottom surfaces of the tailstock are hand scraped. No grinder scrapes, no excess paint anywhere. I'm really liking this lathe and I haven't even done the run-in yet.


----------



## brav65

Looks beautiful Bill.  Thanks for sharing the pictures.  Someday when I grow up I will get some big boy toys like yours!


----------



## wrmiller

brav65 said:


> Looks beautiful Bill.  Thanks for sharing the pictures.  Someday when I grow up I will get some big boy toys like yours!



I really do like them Brooks, but I'd refrain from calling 'em big boy toys. The guys with the Real Big boy toys might get offended. 

But thanks, I will take your comment as it was intended.


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## darkzero

wrmiller19 said:


> Will: do you have a cover on your Z axis scale?



Yes I do. Like coolidge said, I mounted my bracket to the bottom of read head. My DRO install is in post 3, maybe it might help some? http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/my-pm1236.11475/#post-94083


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## wrmiller

Thanks Will. Enjoyed reading that (before my time?).


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## GA Gyro

wrmiller19 said:


> Thanks. Today as I was finishing up the long scale install I hauled the tailstock over to the bench to clean it up/inspect (might as well...seeing as I already had it off). The bottom surfaces of the tailstock are hand scraped. No grinder scrapes, no excess paint anywhere. I'm really liking this lathe and I haven't even done the run-in yet.



The more I clean build up, clean, adjust, etc... this 1340GT lathe, the more I realize how well it is built!

This is a testament to Matt, QMT tools, and the PM line of machines; they are built to Matt's specifications, it shows.  

The folks who just look at the feature list and compare price... are IMO missing the real cookie jar!  
However that is simply my opinion, as I am a quality buff!


----------



## darkzero

wrmiller19 said:


> If the headstock is not parallel to the ways, how do I know which end of the headstock to tweak? And how many of the headstock screws should I loosen to tweak it? Or should I not even bother with this until I get the Pratt mounted?



Bill, you shouldn't even need to mess with adjusting the headstock unless something happened to it, it should have been adjusted at the factory. When ready, level the lathe (removing bed twist, square with the world not important). Then chuck up a pretty stout piece of material like 2"Ø or larger with much more unsupported overhang than you learned not to do, like 12" or so (that's why larger the better). Take a light skim cut with a nice sharp tool bit then mic at the chuck side & the unsupported end. Compare measurements. Then you'll know if you'll need or want to adjust the headstock. You shouldn't have too though.


----------



## GA Gyro

darkzero said:


> Bill, you shouldn't even need to mess with adjusting the headstock unless something happened to it, it should have been adjusted at the factory. When ready, level the lathe (removing bed twist, square with the world not important). Then chuck up a pretty stout piece of material like 2"Ø or larger with much more unsupported overhang than you learned not to do, like 12" or so (that's why larger the better). Take a light skim cut with a nice sharp tool bit then mic at the chuck side & the unsupported end. Compare measurements. Then you'll know if you'll need or want to adjust the headstock. You shouldn't have too though.



Will, may I ask a question on this procedure...

I have seen it done with a piece twice that long, supported in the tailstock.  Is that a different procedure, for tailstock alignment?  

THX

John


----------



## darkzero

GA Gyro said:


> Will, may I ask a question on this procedure...
> 
> I have seen it done with a piece twice that long, supported in the tailstock.  Is that a different procedure, for tailstock alignment?
> 
> THX
> 
> John



John, yes, supported in the tailstock would be for tailstock alignment. Best to do that between centers but if you have an accurate enough chuck it would be fine too. Since I use a much longer bar for that, instead of skimming across the entire length of the bar, I do it with "collars" like this:







There's other ways to align the tailstock too. I find the above method to be the most accurate _for me_, I can post the other methods too if anyone would like, just let me know & I'll find my post.


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## GA Gyro

darkzero said:


> John, yes, supported in the tailstock would be for tailstock alignment. Best to do that between centers but if you have an accurate enough chuck it would be fine too. Since I use a much longer bar for that, instead of skimming across the entire length of the bar, I do it with "collars" like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's other ways to align the tailstock too. I find the above method to be the most accurate _for me_, I can post the other methods too if anyone would like, just let me know & I'll find my post.



If you come across it.... the alternate method would be interesting to see.
You know about us newbees... all open eyed and learning... LOL
Then one day, we will be teaching the new crop of newbees...


----------



## wrmiller

Well I managed to get everything installed that I wanted and things are looking pretty good. I mounted the backing plate for the Pratt and I'll be dammed if I can find more than a tenth or two (the new Mitsu .0001 DI is kinda twitchy) in any position on the spindle. So I didn't skim it and just mounted the chuck on it. Oh and for you folks thinking about a Pratt: I had the chuck face down on the bench and trying to get the backing plate to slide into the 'pocket' on the back of the chuck but any tilt of the backing plate will have it wedge in there pretty tight. There is only about 2-3 thou difference between the raised area of the backing plate and the recess in the back of the chuck. I'll bet this chuck doesn't need half that to zero out a part. 

Had it spinning at the highest speed in low range, about 800 rpm, and I found myself standing back by the tailstock. I spin a 5" on the little SB at over 2000 rpm, but I can't imagine this thing ever spinning that fast. I'll be in the other room if it does. Big Chuck...

I made a little shield for the read head on the Z axis to keep the larger fodder at bay. Sorry Coolidge, I wasn't up for relocating that 40" scale. And I got my Dorian mounted! Now I just need my 5/8" indexable set to get here from Shars and I can start cutting stuff. 

I have a 1.25"x20" piece of TGP I was going to stick in the chuck and run a DI down it's length to see if the headstock is true. I also have a 2"x12" piece of aluminum that I could use. Not sure which would be better so maybe I'll try both.

Dinner's ready so here's some eye candy:














She's a little bigger than the little SB.


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## raven7usa

She sure looks pretty in your shop.


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## mksj

Looks nice Bill, I must say the fit and finish on the PBA chucks is quite nice.  I did mount my Bison 4 Jaw 8" combination (about the same weight as your 8") and was able to spin it up to 800+ RPM with no braking problems or fault codes on the WJ200. So you should have no problems with yours as long as you use a braking resistor. 

I been giving some additional review of the circuit diagram for the VFD , I would recommend adding a device protection diode to the relay module. Automation have these that plug directly into the relay socket or you can add a diode across the relay power + and - terminals as shown in the diagram.  When the relay releases it can bounce which causes a magnetic flux from the coil to cause a voltage spike in the relay power connections. Normally this is not an issue with regular switches, but could be an issue because the VFD is powering the relay, and the induced voltage can be quite high. The additional diode shown nullifies this problem. 

See below.


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## wrmiller

Thanks Mark. I bought the 784 series right? Hope it comes with directions as I still haven't figured out this socket and how it mounts to the DIN rail. 

And yes, I bought a braking resistor.


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## wrmiller

raven7usa said:


> She sure looks pretty in your shop.



Does doesn't it?


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## GA Gyro

Looks great Bill... and yeah, that chuck looks BIG on the headstock.


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## wrmiller

GA Gyro said:


> Looks great Bill... and yeah, that chuck looks BIG on the headstock.



Runs really, really smooth though.


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## brav65

Beautiful Bill. Too bad that beauty has to sit in your shop... Seems like a waste to have such a nice piece of equipment sitting inside.  Maybe you should strap a seat on that puppy and take it for a spin around the neighborhood!


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## wrmiller

GA Gyro said:


> Looks great Bill... and yeah, that chuck looks BIG on the headstock.



Yea but it's only .5" larger in diameter than the bed is wide, and it's no bigger than the 4-jaw. And Matt said the 1340 will handle it no problem. I might have hesitated if the spindle wasn't as stout as it is.


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## wrmiller

brav65 said:


> Beautiful Bill. Too bad that beauty has to sit in your shop... Seems like a waste to have such a nice piece of equipment sitting inside.  Maybe you should strap a seat on that puppy and take it for a spin around the neighborhood!



I have the Camaro SS for that.


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## brav65

Ahhhh but your new lathe is as purty as the camero, your gonna make your new lathe jealous...  Machine protective services may have to get involved.. Did I mention that I am a foster parent for unappreciated machines!


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## mksj

The relay is the 784-4C snaps on the DIN rail, there is a spring loaded red tab at one end. If no DIN rail, just screw the relay socket base to to phenolic board (taps easily).


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## wrmiller

Thanks! Bought some DIN rail so will mount to that. Wondered what that little red tab was for...


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## wrmiller

brav65 said:


> Ahhhh but your new lathe is as purty as the camero, your gonna make your new lathe jealous...  Machine protective services may have to get involved.. Did I mention that I am a foster parent for unappreciated machines!



My shop will eventually be making the trip to AZ (probably Tucson area but you never know because the kids/grandkids are in the Phoenix area). So thanks for the offer, but it won't be to your shop, sorry. 

I'm going to call her Gray Lady. So now I have El Hefe, Blue, and Gray Lady. Still haven't figured out a name for the little SB yet. Tomorrow I will get her leveled and stick that piece of TGP in the chuck and see what I have. The only thing left is the 3 phase/VFD conversion, but now that I have her up and running I don't feel like I have to rush it.


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## jds

Bill,
Did you buy your EL400 from Matt?
JD


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## wrmiller

No, bought it from DroPros.


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## jds

Thanks, thats where I will go then.
JD


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## zmotorsports

Looking great Bill.  Makes that SB look like a toy.

Mike.


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## coolidge

Looking good Bill. Dang that's a big chuck, if someone breaks into your garage just point to your chuck they will flee in fear!


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## wrmiller

zmotorsports said:


> Looking great Bill.  Makes that SB look like a toy.
> 
> Mike.



Yea, but it's still a useful toy.

Oh, and I set up the X axis display to take advantage of the 1 micron scale and set the readout to diameter. Now I can chase single tenths on the display...


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Yea, but it's still a useful toy.
> 
> Oh, and I set up the X axis display to take advantage of the 1 micron scale and set the readout to diameter. Now I can chase single tenths on the display...



Mr. Bill when you need to chase tenths that DRO will deliver. The steel pins I made for my welding table for example, the table is precision cnc machined and drilled and I wanted the pins snug, I hit my target diameter within 2-3 tenths on all 8 pins with zero scrap. You are going to love the DRO.


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## marcusp323

Guess I better get to setting up my DRO (providing I can figure it out). Haven't even mounted the head yet to see if it works. I've never used one, so of course it's a bit intimidating looking, though I suppose it'll be something I can't do without once I get the hang of it. Been just using my 1340 to make a few small parts for things, but it's night & day compared to MY old 9" SB for smoothness of the dials & carriage, as well as how nicely it cuts. Then of course there's the power factor............


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## wrmiller

OK guys, need a little help here. Did a test cut on a 2" piece of aluminum and I'm 4 thou smaller at the tailstock end across 9"

So I need to tilt the headstock towards the back of the lathe (splash guard). Which adjustment screw do I use, and which headstock bolts to loosen? I'm going to look over the manual but I'm not too hopeful.


----------



## wrmiller

marcusp323 said:


> Guess I better get to setting up my DRO (providing I can figure it out). Haven't even mounted the head yet to see if it works. I've never used one, so of course it's a bit intimidating looking, though I suppose it'll be something I can't do without once I get the hang of it. Been just using my 1340 to make a few small parts for things, but it's night & day compared to MY old 9" SB for smoothness of the dials & carriage, as well as how nicely it cuts. Then of course there's the power factor............



Write your questions here, or send me a PM if you want to talk on the phone. It's still pretty fresh in my mind.


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## JimDawson

Bill, if you were using the tailstock to support the tail of the the work, then I would say you need to move the _tailstock_ to the back by 0.002.  But maybe I misread what you did.


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## wrmiller

Hey Jim,

This is the unsupported cut. I will do the tailstock adjustment after this.


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## JimDawson

Aaaahhhhh


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## wrmiller

I think I really need Mike (zmotorsports) to help me here. There are three allen head screws in the back above the motor and they go front to back on the headstock (front being the chuck end). the two end ones are only partially threaded in, while the center one is all the way in. I'm thinking I need to screw in the rear most screw slightly to point the chuck slightly towards the splash guard.

I think.

In the meantime, here's a pic of Gray Lady getting herself dirty. It was fun...


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## tmarks11

You sure the headstock is misaligned, and it is not the chuck holding the part askew?


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## wrmiller

No, I'm not sure. Can I check that with a decent (sub-thou diameter delta) piece of TGP?


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## darkzero

Woah, if you didn't make a typo & it's out .0040" that's a lot! Although possible it shouldn't be that much out of alignment, especially for a Taiwanese lathe. My PM1236 is only outr a few tenths over 7-8" or so, I haven't bothered to adjust my headstock yet. Not sure if your adjustment screws for the headstock is the same as mine but all the asian import lathes in this size are similar. I would do some more investigating before messing with the headstock adjustment.

It's not the chuck, if you suspect it is you can try it with the stock chuck. But it doesn't matter even if the chuck is holding the test piece crooked, it wouldn't matter cause you are taking a cut along the spindle axis. Try it again with only 5-6" hanging out for that 2" piece of alumn & see if you get similar results. You need a sharp cutter & take very light cuts, what you want is to avoid tool pressure & pushing the stock. Although it's only a light cut, take the backlash out of the compound slide & lock it before making the cut.

You leveled the lathe pretty well with a machinist's level right? Side to side & front to back doesn't have to be level with the world. What you want is the headstock side of the ways to be level with the tailstock end of the lathe front to back. Use 2 123 block on the flat part of the ways for the machinist's level to sit on so it clears the V, you don't want to measure off the crest off the V. Where ever the bubble settles, you want it to be the same on the end of the lathe, this takes the twist out of the bed.


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## markknx

Bill sorry I did not post earlier. Concrats!! Sorry about the motor did yoy get set up for a replacement? You know I'm so jelious. Waiting to here how it runs. Pros and Con review??? Any way thanks for sharing. Oh was the base built when it arived or did you have to put together?
Mark


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## coolidge

The Dorian is grey now not red?


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## wrmiller

No typo. four thou taper in nine inches. That's approx. .44 thou per inch.

I was fairly certain that once I cut the piece it didn't matter if the chuck was holding it crooked or not, but I don't want to discount anything. Besides, I could be wrong in my assumptions. 

But just for grins I put a 1.25"x20" piece of TGP that measures about a thou total deviation in diameter across the length into the chuck. Set zero deflection at the chuck jaws. Two inches out I still have zero deflection. At six inches the needle is moving, but barely. At twelve inches I have just under a thou, and at fourteen inches I have about a thou and a half. But at that distance  you can use a finger to push the piece of steel around and watch the DI deflect.

If I was getting deflection in the cut, the unsupported end would be larger diameter-wise. It's smaller.


----------



## darkzero

coolidge said:


> The Dorian is grey now not red?


Nope not anymore, not for the SQCTP BXA size anyway. Not sure if the Victorys changed from yellow also. The first time I saw some one get the silver one was late 2011. No idea how long before that when they made the change. Some vendors may still have red ones on the shelf though. I think they're due for another color change next year.


----------



## wrmiller

Will, I'd kiss you right now if you were here! Well, maybe not as your probably as ugly as I am...  

You got me thinking with your 'level' questions. My level is pretty old, and somewhat suspect, so I dragged out the high-tech digital and thought I'd give it a try. Headstock was off .2 degrees, tailstock off .1 degrees, so there was .1 degree of twist in it. Got her set to 0.0 and did another test cut. Now I'm just over .001 in 9". Now we're getting somewhere. Haven't had to do this in a while so had to visualize in my head where the twist was. Went to the front leveling pad at the tailstock end and gave it a half a turn. New test cut has me at .0006 in 9".

So I didn't get it set up as well as I thought I did, but with Will's help I figured it out. I'm just glad it wasn't the headstock...

EDIT: The Boss says it's time for a new Starrett level.


----------



## coolidge

DZ so the Dorian is grey now?

Bill with that much stock hanging out there un-supported it could be swinging .002 hence your .004 short on the tailstock end.


----------



## wrmiller

markknx said:


> Bill sorry I did not post earlier. Concrats!! Sorry about the motor did yoy get set up for a replacement? You know I'm so jelious. Waiting to here how it runs. Pros and Con review??? Any way thanks for sharing. Oh was the base built when it arived or did you have to put together?
> Mark



Matt is sending me a new motor as soon as he digs one out of the shipment of lathes he just received. Oh, and she runs like a dream, especially now that I have her properly set up. The base shows up in two boxes with the connecting panel in the crate with the lathe. It was easy to put together.


----------



## darkzero

wrmiller19 said:


> Will, I'd kiss you right now if you were here! Well, maybe not as your probably as ugly as I am...



Yeah maybe! Kiss hell no, unless it's from a pretty x-girlfriend or something.  But I will drink a beer with ya if I'm ever in the AZ area when you get there.

Very good to hear Bill! Yeah, lathes from 12x-14x are very sensitive to bed twist, some less than others. The beds can twist just by sitting on the pallet for sometime & take time to settle back. The leveling feet also affects it, some that are lined with a rubber/neoprene pad need time to settle also, so after leveling a lathe with these type of feet, you have to check & possibly relevel after a few days to a week or so depending on the feet. I made some solid steel feet for 4 of the 8 on my lathe. I'm in earthshake country so whenever there is a small quake I have to relevel.


----------



## darkzero

coolidge said:


> DZ so the Dorian is grey now?



I guess so. I only know based on what I see on the forums. Looks like all you guys getting the Dorians on here in the past couple years have been silver. As I mentioned, the first time I saw someone get the silver one was in late 2011 (on another forum) so it appears they've been silver for quite some time now.


----------



## wrmiller

LOL...

I'll give it a week to settle and try the test cut again to see if it shifts.

Thanks again!


----------



## darkzero

wrmiller19 said:


> The Boss says it's time for a new Starrett level.



Show off! All I have is an $80 Chinese "precision" level. It was useless when I received it, I had to calibrate it myself but after that it's been doing fine for me. One day I will have a Starrett too...I hope.


----------



## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Will, I'd kiss you right now if you were here! Well, maybe not as your probably as ugly as I am...



This thread...has become awkward


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## darkzero

You're just jealous! Uh wait, er, um, I mean....


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## wrmiller

ROFLMAO!!! (I miss our old smilies...)


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## darkzero

Me too!


----------



## darkzero

For those of you considering adding some weight to you bases for more rigidity, look what I helped do today. I think it's worth doing.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/large-epoxy-granite-vmc-project.33497/page-2#post-286010


----------



## markknx

Will I see you have both the PM1263 & the PM45-PDF. I am thinking of getting these to machines from Matt later this year. ( I have to get back to work from my Sholder before I can justify that kind of spending) PM is in the forerunner of all the machines I have found in this size group. How do you like these machines? any regretts?
Mark


----------



## wrmiller

Matt no longer sells the PM45. He still sells the 932 and he has a new mill coming that will be very similar to my Charter Oak.


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## darkzero

markknx said:


> Will I see you have both the PM1263 & the PM45-PDF. I am thinking of getting these to machines from Matt later this year. ( I have to get back to work from my Sholder before I can justify that kind of spending) PM is in the forerunner of all the machines I have found in this size group. How do you like these machines? any regretts?
> Mark



Mark, nope, no regrets. Not really regrets but I now want a larger lathe & back then I wanted a nice full size BP clone. Couldn't afford a new one & I really don't have the room for a BP clone anyway so maybe later. But both machines have been good to me & I'm still happy with them.

As Bill stated, the PM45M has been replaced by the PM932. The PM932 really is just a PM45 without the coolant system with a few more available accessories & the power feed head. Am I sad for not having a PM932 or my mill not coming with the preinstalled quill DRO, nope not at all. Keep in mind when I got my lathe & mill, there was no PM932, PM935, PM1340GT, PM1440BV, etc., I did not have those options. I remember the only other models I looked at were the PM1440HD & PM1340T (not GT, just T for Toolroom). The PM1340T was very nice! Basically a Clausing but it was more than twice the price I paid for the PM1236. The PM1440HD was out of my price range too.

Some day I may get a full size BP clone & will sell the PM45M. But if I ever get a bigger lathe, I don't want to sell my PM1236. It has served me well & I'm very happy with. Not sure why but my PM1236 has a number of slight differences than all the batches before & after mine & I like the differences. As far as a bigger lathe, well I doubt I will ever go larger than a 1440. But a 1440 really isn't that much bigger in size, well not worth me going from a 1236 to a 1440 except for the better features I would like to have. I have not needed a bigger lathe yet anyway, my PM1236 has handled everything I've thrown at it already. But I'm just a home shop hobby guy.

If/when I do get a 1440 it will be a "heavy duty" model. Nothing right now really catches my eye to go for an upgrade. For the price point & space, the PM1236 & PM932 are excellent choices. There's also the PM940 mill that is coming out soon which is basically like the COA 12Z. That's another mill that did not exist back then. Back then it was the IH mill (which got bought out by COA) but I sure wasn't going to by from IH at that time.

(Sorry Bill for hijack)


----------



## markknx

Thanks Will sorry Bill.


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## coolidge

darkzero said:


> Me too!



Ditto bring back the old smilies


----------



## zmotorsports

Bill, sorry for the late response, I just saw your PM this morning.

Looks like many already have given you very good information.

First and formost you need to make absolutely certain that the lathe is leveled in both axis.  Bed twist is the most common issue on this weight class of lathe.  I got mine dead nuts level in both planes/axis before even attempting to make a first cut, although I was getting anxious.

Once I got the lathe leveled, I turned a piece of 2" aluminum bar stock and noticed mine was off .002" in about 8"(if memory serves).  The adjustment bolts under the backside of the head/gear housing are your adjustments.  There are bolts under the chuck and behind the headstock bolting the head/gear housing to the bed.  I loosened these and then snugged them up before moving on to using the adjustment bolts.

On my lathe the workpiece when chucked up in the chuck was further away from the toolpost at the tailstock end vs. the headstock end so I very lightly tightened the left adjustment bolt (furthest away from the chuck) and then made another test cut of a few thousandths.  I crept up on it until it was dead nuts even.  It only took two attempts if I remember correctly.  I then tightened the bolts down fastening the head/gear housing to the bed.

I re-checked the alignment about three weeks later as I figured the machine would possibly "settle" a bit.  Now nearly 9-months later it is still dead on, just checked it last week.

I hope that explained it enough but you appeared to have better help before I posted. 

Again, sorry for the delay in responding.

Mike.


----------



## wrmiller

Thanks Mike. It sounds like I had the adjustment screws figured out which is good to know. I didn't realize the lathes in this size range are so 'twitchy'. Probably because of the narrow bed width.

It's all good for now.


----------



## zmotorsports

wrmiller19 said:


> Thanks Mike. It sounds like I had the adjustment screws figured out which is good to know. I didn't realize the lathes in this size range are so 'twitchy'. Probably because of the narrow bed width.
> 
> It's all good for now.



Bill, I don't necessarily know if I would call them "twitchy" per se.  Forty inches between centers is quite a distance for a lathe in general.  Even a lathe of heavier weight will twist if the bed is not level.  That said, once leveled as long as your flooring is solid and in good shape you really shouldn't have any further issues with any 1300~ish pound lathe.

Like I mentioned, mine was off by a couple thousandths once I got the lathe dead nuts level and it has stayed that way since August 2014 now.

Mike.


----------



## wrmiller

Tidied up  the new lathe a bit. I think this little shop will work quite well for me.







Now all I need is my old panhead sitting in the middle...


----------



## GA Gyro

Nice picture Bill... I wish my shop were as large, and had a high ceiling... Looks GREAT!


----------



## markknx

Bill, with that new lathe you don't need that Panhead. I'll come pic it up and get it out of your way.

The shop looks good. What is Under the blue sheet onthe black cart by the C. Oaks mill? You are luck to have the size garage you have.
My shop shares a 24 x 20 garage with the bike and the wifes car. this is why there is no BP mill, and I can only go up to a 12 x 36. I keep looking at the 1340, but I just can't make it fit. It would push the budget to.
Mark


----------



## zmotorsports

I am going to go out on a limb and say that under that blue blanket or drop cloth in the background is Bill's smaller PM25.

Just a guess though, I think he still has it.

Mike.


----------



## coolidge

Three suggestions,

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Super-Heavy-Duty-Workbench-Leg-System/D2910

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Solid-Maple-Workbench-Top-72-Wide-x-30-Deep-x-1-3-4-Thick/G9915

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SHEETROC...-ft-x-8-ft-Gypsum-Board-14211011308/100321591


----------



## wrmiller

zmotorsports said:


> I am going to go out on a limb and say that under that blue blanket or drop cloth in the background is Bill's smaller PM25.
> 
> Just a guess though, I think he still has it.
> 
> Mike.



Good guess Mike, that's what it is. I use some cheap sheets to keep the dust off. Still toying with the idea of a grinding attachment for the little mill.


----------



## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> The Dorian is grey now not red?



The silver looks like it's a plating (nickel?) that has had a soft bead blast. The top has a mirrored finish. Looks kinda cool.


----------



## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> The silver looks like it's a plating (nickel?) that has had a soft bead blast. The top has a mirrored finish. Looks kinda cool.



Bummer, I really liked the red.


----------



## leroy

wrmiller19 said:


> Tidied up  the new lathe a bit. I think this little shop will work quite well for me.
> 
> View attachment 98278
> 
> 
> Now all I need is my old panhead sitting in the middle...


Nice Shop Bill. Looks like you have it really organized. Is that a bandsaw i see on the end of the lathe? Also really enjoy you photos and updates. Keep em coming.


----------



## wrmiller

leroy said:


> Nice Shop Bill. Looks like you have it really organized. Is that a bandsaw i see on the end of the lathe? Also really enjoy you photos and updates. Keep em coming.



I have a little Griz 4x6 and keep it between the two lathes. Running out of wall space.


----------



## maker of things

Gee Bill, I totally missed when you started this thread.  Glad to see you got your lathe, too bad about the motor, sounds like you are still trying to get the lathe running?


----------



## wrmiller

Hey Jon, where the heck have you been dude?  

Yea, Matt sent me a brand new motor (I didn't even ask...) to replace the dinged one. I'll likely use parts off the single phase to repair it and keep it for a spare. I had some stuff I wanted to make on the new lathe right away, so didn't want to start tearing the lathe apart until I got those done. I basically got serious about the change over a week ago.

But I'm struggling a bit with the change-over to 3 phase/VFD. I haven't done any electrical rework in over 20 years so I have nothing to do the work with, and never having done this exact stuff before, I didn't know what I needed until I needed i,t and it's another week waiting for something to arrive. 

I have a large NEMA-1 box that I'm mounting to the side of the stand near the lathe head. When I ordered it from Automation Direct they suggested a sub-panel, and at the time I couldn't figure out why I would need it so I didn't get it. I figured out why I need it last Saturday morning. It should be here sometime this week (Bill drumming his fingers on his desk). There have been a string of events like this. 

So far, I've managed to make a new control panel for the front of the lathe and have switches on it for E-stop, JOG (fwd and rev), Frequency/motor speed, and Braking. I need to finish making the wiring harnesses for the front panel (waiting on colored heat shrink tubing for that), and start mounting pieces on the sub-panel when it arrives. I'm literally taking the fiber board with the bus-bar and 24v transformer and transferring it to the larger box. The original electrical box is completely empty. I put it back on the lathe to give me more room for laying stuff on top of the headstock. 

Oh, and I have to mount the braking resistor inside the big box as well. This last weekend had me changing out the single-phase motor for the three-phase, and mounting the large box on the lathe stand. Hand drilling the five 3/4" holes in the bottom of the box with a cheap import drill bit was a little more excitement that I wanted...

Then once everything is installed/mounted I need to re-read the instructions in the manual for changing control parameters in the VFD, because I want to do this manually from the front panel the first time so I know exactly what is in the VFD. That and I figure I have a bigger chance of screwing things up if I try to do a config file download to do the initial programming. I'll probably have all of the electrical done this next weekend.

If I didn't forget anything else.

Mechanical mods are SO much easier.


----------



## brav65

darkzero said:


> Doesn't really matter as long as the user knows what's what.
> 
> As I mentioned, on a universal/mill DRO display, the axes are usually labeled X & Y, X on top for the cross slide, Y on bottom for the carriage on the display. I have a lathe specific DRO display & they are labeled X & Z, again X on top, Z on bottom. On lathe specific DROs, they usually have a button that allows you change from radius & diameter modes, this only works for the X axis. Universal/mill DROs can be set in the parameters to display either radius or diameter for each axis but I have seen a few with the radius/diameter button.
> 
> The way I learned it is the axes are in relation to the machine's spindle being Z.
> 
> Lathe
> View attachment 98005
> 
> 
> Vert mill
> View attachment 98006
> 
> 
> Horiz mill
> View attachment 98007



I believe that the labels of each axis are in relation to the ordinate planes where X+ is to the right   Y+ is up(north) and Z+ is coming out of the page. If you line up the Z you get X for right left and Y in out.


----------



## wrmiller

What the heck are you guys talking about?


----------



## darkzero

wrmiller19 said:


> What the heck are you guys talking about?



Lol, my quoted post from #44 is clear as day with the diagrams attached but I'm a bit confused what Brook is trying to say.


----------



## GA Gyro

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey Jon, where the heck have you been dude?
> 
> Yea, Matt sent me a brand new motor (I didn't even ask...) to replace the dinged one. I'll likely use parts off the single phase to repair it and keep it for a spare. I had some stuff I wanted to make on the new lathe right away, so didn't want to start tearing the lathe apart until I got those done. I basically got serious about the change over a week ago.
> 
> But I'm struggling a bit with the change-over to 3 phase/VFD. I haven't done any electrical rework in over 20 years so I have nothing to do the work with, and never having done this exact stuff before, I didn't know what I needed until I needed i,t and it's another week waiting for something to arrive.
> 
> I have a large NEMA-1 box that I'm mounting to the side of the stand near the lathe head. When I ordered it from Automation Direct they suggested a sub-panel, and at the time I couldn't figure out why I would need it so I didn't get it. I figured out why I need it last Saturday morning. It should be here sometime this week (Bill drumming his fingers on his desk). There have been a string of events like this.
> 
> So far, I've managed to make a new control panel for the front of the lathe and have switches on it for E-stop, JOG (fwd and rev), Frequency/motor speed, and Braking. I need to finish making the wiring harnesses for the front panel (waiting on colored heat shrink tubing for that), and start mounting pieces on the sub-panel when it arrives. I'm literally taking the fiber board with the bus-bar and 24v transformer and transferring it to the larger box. The original electrical box is completely empty. I put it back on the lathe to give me more room for laying stuff on top of the headstock.
> 
> Oh, and I have to mount the braking resistor inside the big box as well. This last weekend had me changing out the single-phase motor for the three-phase, and mounting the large box on the lathe stand. Hand drilling the five 3/4" holes in the bottom of the box with a cheap import drill bit was a little more excitement that I wanted...
> 
> Then once everything is installed/mounted I need to re-read the instructions in the manual for changing control parameters in the VFD, because I want to do this manually from the front panel the first time so I know exactly what is in the VFD. That and I figure I have a bigger chance of screwing things up if I try to do a config file download to do the initial programming. I'll probably have all of the electrical done this next weekend.
> 
> If I didn't forget anything else.
> 
> Mechanical mods are SO much easier.



Hey Bill,

I thought I was the only one who had not finished wiring their 1340GT and had it running on the VFD...
Looks like I have company.  

My issue was the AC business got to hopping, I did not get into my shop much the whole month of April... 

Over the last few weeks, I have all my wiring done.  I left the 240V-24V AC transformer in the lathe elec box... and put the main relay Mark suggested in that box also.  I mounted a NEMA plastic box below the headstock on the right of the cabinet; it has the main power switch, VFD, a couple of terminal strips, and a cooling fan arrangement (intake screen and fan with screen). 
I put the brake resistor on the back of the cabinet, and used stick-on velcro to put a power strip next to it for 120V accessories.  
For the front panel, I put a new lighted E-stop, new jog button (not directional), and the POT (variable resistor)... and left the factory white light-bulb in the left hole, not used at this time. 

I need to do as you mentioned... study the programming procedure and manually input the parameters.... then hope to hit the power and pray I do not let the magic smoke out of anything.... 

I still need to fit the QCTP Matt sent me... not sure if I am gonna use the T piece that came with the lathe (it sure looks nice, yet would take a lot of machining), or fire up the mill and make a new one. 

Then on to alignment and making parts/chips... or is that chips/parts... 

Will be out/town over the weekend at a Gyro-Copter gathering in NC... so probably will not get much done until next week.  

I found the wiring was tedious... I kept changing my mind about where to mount something and re-doing it.  Probably took twice as long as it should have... yet I am happy with it now... 

Looking forward to hearing you have yours running, as I would like to have mine running also... 

Bill, send me a PM, my ability to start a PM conversation does not seem to work... THX

John/GA


----------



## brav65

Sorry for the confusion guys. In math ther are three Cardinal planes X, Y, Z. On paper the Y axis is up and down on the paper, the X axis is left and right and the Z axis comes out of the paper toward the viewer. If you align the Z axis with the Z axis on the machine you can see why they are labeled as such. Take a look at a CAD program and you will see the X,Y, and Z labeled as I have described. You can also pull out a math book and look at the section on planar geometry.


----------



## wrmiller

Hey Brooks, I am quite familiar with geometry I just couldn't figure out what or how the conversation happened here.


----------



## wrmiller

darkzero said:


> Lol, my quoted post from #44 is clear as day with the diagrams attached but I'm a bit confused what Brook is trying to say.



Oh...OK. I get it now. Just couldn't figure out how my status post ended up in 3 dimensional space...


----------



## markknx

Bill,
 You are safe until they hit 5 dimensional, 5 dimensional post are bad. Sort of like crossing the beams.
Mark


----------



## maker of things

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey Jon, where the heck have you been dude?


I've tried to be around, but ever since the new style forum seems like all the posts I was following went cold or I didn't get notifications or something.  I also have been using my machines a bunch which leaves little time to root around the forum.  
  If your taiwanese machine is as much better as expected than a chinese one, you are going to be pretty happy.  I love my PM-1440.  As far as timeline goes, I've had my 12z for over a year and haven't even started the cnc conversion yet, so I guess you're doing all right.


----------



## wrmiller

Thanks for the words of encouragement. 

When I had the tailstock off the lathe I noticed the bottom was entirely hand scraped. I've not owned a machine like this. I am going to get spoiled. CNC'ing the 12Z? Probably won't do that unless I want to do short production runs on something to sell and that won't happen until I lose the day job and get settled somewhere else. Then I'd have to hit Matt up for a 9x49 mill. Have to have a manual mill...


----------



## maker of things

That's one of the neat parts of this hobby, many people can solve the same problem using different solutions, and all be right (enough).  I want to do too much weird one off crap to stick with manual on the mill, but don't really see any advantage for me to have a variable speed lathe.  I'm sure that it helps that I have no clue what I'm doing though


----------



## JimDawson

There is no reason you can't have a CNC/manual mill all in one machine.  You just need to set up the Z to easily disconnect from the drive.  The X and Y can remain connected to the motors.


----------



## wrmiller

JimDawson said:


> There is no reason you can't have a CNC/manual mill all in one machine.  You just need to set up the Z to easily disconnect from the drive.  The X and Y can remain connected to the motors.



Interesting that you said that. Charter Oak has a motor drive kit for the Z axis, but I don't want to loose my ability to manually fine tune the position of the head which I was told their kit will do. But there has to be a way to have both. I'll have to think about this some more.


----------



## maker of things

You could absolutely set up the z with a stepper and jog for quick up/down or MDI for precise input.  It would be a little messing around, but I'm sure there are plenty of us who would have info to help.   If you were just using it as a programmable DRO of sorts for one axis, you could skip the e stop and limits and make it at least 1/2 as complicated as the whole cnc sheebang.

I guess I'm the one who opened the door for hijacking your lathe thread into a mill thread.


----------



## maker of things

On a lathe related note... I have been having decent luck keeping my PM white "DZ clean" with tub o towels.


----------



## wrmiller

Oh...very nice! I'll have to get some of those, thanks.


----------



## darkzero

maker of things said:


> On a lathe related note... I have been having decent luck keeping my PM white "DZ clean" with tub o towels.



Haha! I just use WD40, cleaning is just about all that it's good for in my book & is all I use it for. And it's cheap.


----------



## tmarks11

wrmiller19 said:


> The tailstock doesn't support arbors with tangs on them very well. If you use one like the one I received, you loose 20mm right from the start.


Every single lathe I have ever used has been like that.  It makes it so the taper is self ejecting, which can be a good think, as a Morse Taper can get stuck.


----------



## wrmiller

The big Japanese lathe I learned wasn't like this, in that you simply backed up past zero to eject the tool, but it's the only one outside of the ones I've owned that I have any experience with.  I will either shorten the tang or the ejection bolt a bit. Depends on how ambitious I am at the time.


----------



## JimDawson

wrmiller19 said:


> Interesting that you said that. Charter Oak has a motor drive kit for the Z axis, but I don't want to loose my ability to manually fine tune the position of the head which I was told their kit will do. But there has to be a way to have both. I'll have to think about this some more.



Bill, that is exactly why I spent a couple of months designing a completely new type Z-axis drive, I can go from 3 axis CNC to full manual in seconds.  I looked at all of the retro-fit kits, only one had a provision for disconnecting and it was cumbersome at best.  As far as I know, it's never been done like mine before.  It's probably patentable, but I'm not going to do that.  There is a way to do yours also, it's just a matter of figuring out the best way.  Too bad my system won't bolt on to your machine, I'd be happy to give you or anyone else the drawings for it.


----------



## wrmiller

It may not bolt onto my machine, but it doesn't mean I couldn't derive a modification or two that might make it (or something like it) work. 

If it's in some CAM/CAD format though I probably can't open it though.


----------



## JimDawson

If you're interested take a look here:

Z-axis CNC Conversion

I can supply DXFs that are readable by many viewers.


----------



## markknx

It is simple buy another mill with CNC then you have both.


----------



## maker of things

darkzero said:


> Haha! I just use WD40, cleaning is just about all that it's good for in my book & is all I use it for. And it's cheap.


Will, I think you should do an instructional sticky titled: One simple trick for that "perfect Dark Zero clean" (tm) pending


----------



## maker of things

wrmiller19 said:


> The big Japanese lathe I learned wasn't like this, in that you simply backed up past zero to eject the tool, but it's the only one outside of the ones I've owned that I have any experience with.  I will either shorten the tang or the ejection bolt a bit. Depends on how ambitious I am at the time.



My tailstock has the through hole for a drift key and the tang fits nicely in so no spinning. The dead centers I got don't have a tang and are too short to be ejected by the screw which makes for many bad words when I have to use one.  It's only short by .1"

I would vote for modifying the tangs to fit the lathe.  Mamma always said tangs are like a box of chocolates, every one is different.


----------



## darkzero

maker of things said:


> Will, I think you should do an instructional sticky titled: One simple trick for that "perfect Dark Zero clean" (tm) pending



I should do informercials! 













*BAM!*


----------



## JimDawson

WOW Will, I think that's the first time I've seen chips on your lathe.  I didn't think you actually ever used it.


----------



## darkzero

JimDawson said:


> WOW Will, I think that's the first time I've seen chips on your lathe.  I didn't think you actually ever used it.



Haha! Well usually it sits inside a glass case & I take it to shows. And if it does get dirty, it needs to be cleaned before a photo shoot. 

But in all seriousness, of course I use it. Most of the pics from my lathe thread were taken when it was new, copied over from it's original thread on another forum. And being white, all the scars & stuff are well hidden from camera, just like white cars. But I do clean up after jobs way more often than most. I've been getting lazier & lazier on clean up lately but I still try to keep it clean. I've seen plenty of guys here lately that could easily take over my title. 

I machine mostly titanium so I try to keep it clear of ti chips as often as I can. Don't want to have anymore lathe fires. And I don't often have heavier turning days like the CI above (I hate CI) or like below. I guess I just end up taking photos more often after clean up.


----------



## maker of things

<Does't actually link anywhere>

But in all seriousness, thinking about how impressed everyone is by your clean machines helps motivate me to keep up on cleaning my machines after (almost) each job.


----------



## wrmiller

DAMN I hate electrical!  

I THINK I have everything mounted/wired correctly. I'm flying a bit by the seat of my pants as I've decided to do things a bit differently that has been posted/suggested here. And while being familiar with the theory (electrical/electronics), there's no substitute for experience at something, of which I have none in this particular area.  

Last thing I need to do prior to hitting the switch is to connect the braking resistor. I printed out a few pages from the manual describing how to view/modify/input parameters from the front panel. The Danfoss on the Charter Oak was intuitive/simple, this one not so much. Will take a bit of study to figure this one out.

I plan to leave the e-stop activated while I do a first power on just in case I have some of the control wiring going to the wrong places. 

So...if I'm not back on this evening you can probably assume I turned myself into a burnt piece of charcoal or let the factory smoke out of something.  

If I buy another machine someday, it will be a variable speed from the factory...


----------



## coolidge

maker of things said:


> My tailstock has the through hole for a drift key and the tang fits nicely in so no spinning. The dead centers I got don't have a tang and are too short to be ejected by the screw which makes for many bad words when I have to use one.  It's only short by .1"
> 
> I would vote for modifying the tangs to fit the lathe.  Mamma always said tangs are like a box of chocolates, every one is different.



Turn a spacer of the proper length and diameter, insert spacer, then dead center, then back out the quill to eject like the tang tools.


----------



## coolidge

I'm convinced DZ has two lathes, one is just for pictures.


----------



## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Interesting that you said that. Charter Oak has a motor drive kit for the Z axis, but I don't want to loose my ability to manually fine tune the position of the head which I was told their kit will do. But there has to be a way to have both. I'll have to think about this some more.



Do you like the fine speed tuning you have on your X axis power feed, plus rapid ability? For a truly manual mill I think something like that would be the way to go with Z.


----------



## wrmiller

Well, I'm not sure what is going on.

I was programming the WJ and got to one of the 'A' parameters I couldn't get to. It simply skipped over it. Then it skipped over large chunks of values that according to Mark's programming guide I need to/should modify. 

Tomorrow I will move one of my macs out to the garage and see if it needs a software update or something.


----------



## darkzero

coolidge said:


> I'm convinced DZ has two lathes, one is just for pictures.


Not the first time someone has said, although....


----------



## mksj

*Hitachi WJ200 VFD - Access to all programming parameters via the keypad. *

On power up, The keypad will light up and you will then be able to go into the PROGRAMMING mode.  Use the program guides to determine how to make menu and keystroke settings for operating parameter changes if you are not using the ProDriveNext software. Before you can make "High Level" parameter changes and see the programming parameters "Full Display" you must first make the following to changes to the default parameter values:

1. Change B031 to "10". This unlocks all the high level program functions for editing.
2. Change B037 to "00" for full display of all functions. You must press both the up and down arrows to access single-digit edit mode since this feature is not accessible in the default basic display.

*Without doing this first*, the default WJ200 VFD settings limit access to changing many of the program parameters via the VFD keypad. This is the Security Lock Mode described in Section 3-53 of the manual and restriction of Display Related Parameters Section 3-57. These restrictions are not in place if you are programming through a computer with the ProDriveNext software, unfortunately the Hitachi software only runs on PC systems. So to run on a Mac you would needs some form of Windows emulation program. Since I use the software to set up the wj200 VFDs, I have not encountered this problem. But on one of my recent installation of a WJ200 for a plate roller system, this issue came up when the owner tried to make some parameter changes.


----------



## wrmiller

Will get back to it this morning. Big thanks Mark!


----------



## wrmiller

FYI for those with WJ200s: In order to get to the B031 parameter, you have to set/change the B037 parameter FIRST. Kinda backwards, but you can figure out how I discovered this...  

Update: I have the chuck spinning and the speed control working. I forgot to add the diodes for directional control using the JOG function. Oops...working on that now.


----------



## wrmiller

Done.


----------



## coolidge

Your BPA chuck makes your lathe look small dang. Love the control panel, looks like you upgraded some of the hand wheel knobs and levers, nice looking lathe its DZ clean. I look forward to your report on threading at low speeds.


----------



## brav65

Looking good Bill, she is a beauty!


----------



## wrmiller

You should see it spinning in high gear @ 90 Hz. 

I basically made a new panel to replace the original and sourced most of the hardware from Automation Direct. I added a FWD/REV switch to the JOG circuit so I can tap at 'really' low speeds. And the two-stage braking appears to work fine with this big honking chuck. I bought some more of those chrome spinner handles from Griz for the carriage and crossfeed, and made some slightly longer/fatter knobs for the feed and thread levers. Got tired real quick of bashing my knuckles into the apron.

I have a few more mods in mind for her, but at least the big one is out of the way.


----------



## wrmiller

Next is the MachTach.


----------



## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> Your BPA chuck makes your lathe look small dang. Love the control panel, looks like you upgraded some of the hand wheel knobs and levers, nice looking lathe its DZ clean. I look forward to your report on threading at low speeds.



Not sure what you mean by "low speeds", but I did do my first single point threading on her today. It was a fine pitch, 20 tpi, and I ended up threading at 200 rpm as I got tired of waiting for the cut to end (3/4" thread run). I could use this rpm down to maybe 16 tpi, but then I'd have to switch the pulleys to low range just to save on the nerves. Didn't even bother with a relief cut. Just watched the numbers roll off on the DRO.

I can get her down to 40-50 rpm or lower for the real coarse stuff.


----------



## wrmiller

Ok, so after shifting the lathe around to get to the motor and wire up it and the VFD I put it back to it's normal spot, leveled it with a machinist level, and let it sit for a week. Today I checked the level and the tailstock end required just a bit of a tweak to get everything back to perfect. Then I did a test cut...

I had to make some fairly significant tweaks to the adjustable feet to get under a thou in 10", and I know from the amount of tweaking I did that the lathe no longer sits 'level' per a spirit level so there is some amount of twist in the bed.

So my question is will the bed untwist/relax after some period of time? I am assuming that I should probably make another test cut in a couple of weeks, but how often do I need to make a test cut? Every month? Six months?


----------



## zmotorsports

Looks good Bill.  Glad to see you got her up and running.

Mike.


----------



## wrmiller

Thanks Mike!


----------



## qualitymachinetools

Hey Bill, you are taking a test cut without the tailstock center in right? If it is off, the headstock is fully adjustable to the bedways. Take the change gear end cover off and look above the motor, you will see the adjustment allen head screws. You loosen the main bolts that bolt the headstock to the ways, and set it from there. Once it is set, you should be good for a while, unless it takes a good hit or the machine is moved. You can get it set to be dead on, as good as you want it to be.


----------



## wrmiller

qualitymachinetools said:


> Hey Bill, you are taking a test cut without the tailstock center in right? If it is off, the headstock is fully adjustable to the bedways. Take the change gear end cover off and look above the motor, you will see the adjustment allen head screws. You loosen the main bolts that bolt the headstock to the ways, and set it from there. Once it is set, you should be good for a while, unless it takes a good hit or the machine is moved. You can get it set to be dead on, as good as you want it to be.



Hey Matt! Yes...test cut with no tailstock, i.e. checking spindle alignment to ways.

That's what I was going to do, but someone here told me to adjust it with the leveling feet.

Should I go back and get the bed dead level then adjust the headstock instead? This does seem to make more sense. Well, to me anyway.


----------



## wrmiller

For any recent purchasers of MachTachs:

Henry kitted about 15 units (his number, not mine) that has three 220 pF caps for C1, C3, and C9. But C9 requires a 4700 pF for the VFD noise circuit. Check for three loose yellow caps in the kit and check the numbers. Two of them should say 220 on them and one should say 472.

If you have the wrong cap, contact MachTach and Henry will send you the correct one. I'll get mine next week.


----------



## tmarks11

wrmiller19 said:


> For any recent purchasers of MachTachs....


You going to integrate machtach into your headstock control panel?


----------



## wrmiller

tmarks11 said:


> You going to integrate machtach into your headstock control panel?



That was the original plan, but with the angles and such there isn't as much room behind that panel as you'd think. From the front it looks like there's plenty of room, but it was pretty tight just getting the switches and cables in there. They are a bit large though, these modular switches.

So, I bought the little plastic box offered on his website and am thinking I will mount it on the DRO's display arm. That way all of my readouts are in the same area.


----------



## GA Gyro

Hey Bill,

THX for the posts... reading and absorbing your efforts and successes.  

We are gonna get a week of rain here... probably gonna be finished with AC work early most days this week.
I have completed all my wiring... have not tried to start it up yet and have not even thought about programming the VFD yet.  May PM you and ask for an overview of how to get going on that part (programming the VFD).  

Looked at my two MachTach kits... as far as I can tell... I have the correct caps... will dig deeper into it one day this week.

THX for posting your progress... it is much appreciated!

John/GA


----------



## wrmiller

Wow...a week of rain? We've had three dry days this month. Hard on the golf game, but gives plenty of time in the garage.  

You should have a number of identical caps torn from a tape roll. Then there should be three loose ones. Those are the ones I was referring to.

In the 'old days' I would have had that board stuffed and soldered in a couple of hours or less. But my eyes aren't what they used to be. Mark's VFD params are good starting points. The only part I had to tweak was the duration of the first and second stages of the two-stage braking. But I don't think you're swinging a 65 lb. chuck, so you should be fine.


----------



## GA Gyro

wrmiller19 said:


> Wow...a week of rain? We've had three dry days this month. Hard on the golf game, but gives plenty of time in the garage.
> 
> You should have a number of identical caps torn from a tape roll. Then there should be three loose ones. Those are the ones I was referring to.
> 
> In the 'old days' I would have had that board stuffed and soldered in a couple of hours or less. But my eyes aren't what they used to be. Mark's VFD params are good starting points. The only part I had to tweak was the duration of the first and second stages of the two-stage braking. But I don't think you're swinging a 65 lb. chuck, so you should be fine.



THX Bill...

I located the 3 loose caps... two of them look similar to the ones on the strip... the third one is a tubular, about 5/16 dia and maybe 5/8 long.  I think I am fine.
I agree... in days past... I could have built both of the MachTachs an evening or two... ready to mount.  Yet both my eyes and my focus are dwindling.  Better IMO to take the time... rather than to repair a mistake...  I may look at HF for a set of magnifying goggles... <grin>  
I plan to hang the MachTach on the lathe under the DRO... On the 935 mill I am gonna make a new control box for the left side of the head... with the machtach in it.  The control box for the mill probably will not get done until the fall, due to AC work... especially since the mill is running... another of those 'because I can'... things... 

I have been SOOO busy with heating and AC... my best guess is:  Folks have been bandaiding the systems at their homes, getting through rough times.  Well this year, they seem to either have confidence or $$$, or both... as they are just replacing the systems I have been bandaiding for the last 3-5 years.  

The weatherman says rain all week... mostly in the afternoons (normal pattern for the area).  

Hopefully that will give me some time to catch up in the shop... including finally getting the lathe running.  I have the machine on the stand, the crane arm arranged to lift things to the chuck... all the wiring done... I just need to program the VFD and get the QCTP mounted... then level and align... and I am ready to make chips.  Just wish I had more time for the machine shop...


----------



## dave2176

wrmiller19 said:


> Should I go back and get the bed dead level then adjust the headstock instead? This does seem to make more sense. Well, to me anyway.



Yes, level the lathe every which way then adjust the headstock to remove any spindle alignment problem. Make sure your test piece isn't picking up any spring out on the end throwing your measurement off.
Dave


----------



## qualitymachinetools

Yes what Dave said, I would level it up, and then adjust it.


----------



## wrmiller

Thanks guys. Will re-level this evening and maybe even get to some test cuts.

When the lathe bed was level, I had about .003" of taper across a 9-10" cut on a 2" diameter piece. Taper was towards the tailstock end, so it sounds like the headstock is pointed ever so slightly towards the operator.

I don't think I had any 'spring out' on the unsupported end, as the taper was at that end, and I literally could take a half thou cut and ended up with only .00075 deviation across the entire piece.  Oh, and those shiny cutting inserts for aluminum? Razor sharp. Don't ask how I found that out...


----------



## wrmiller

GA Gyro said:


> THX Bill...
> 
> I located the 3 loose caps... two of them look similar to the ones on the strip... the third one is a tubular, about 5/16 dia and maybe 5/8 long.  I think I am fine.
> I agree... in days past... I could have built both of the MachTachs an evening or two... ready to mount.  Yet both my eyes and my focus are dwindling.  Better IMO to take the time... rather than to repair a mistake...  I may look at HF for a set of magnifying goggles... <grin>
> I plan to hang the MachTach on the lathe under the DRO... On the 935 mill I am gonna make a new control box for the left side of the head... with the machtach in it.  The control box for the mill probably will not get done until the fall, due to AC work... especially since the mill is running... another of those 'because I can'... things...
> 
> I have been SOOO busy with heating and AC... my best guess is:  Folks have been bandaiding the systems at their homes, getting through rough times.  Well this year, they seem to either have confidence or $$$, or both... as they are just replacing the systems I have been bandaiding for the last 3-5 years.
> 
> The weatherman says rain all week... mostly in the afternoons (normal pattern for the area).
> 
> Hopefully that will give me some time to catch up in the shop... including finally getting the lathe running.  I have the machine on the stand, the crane arm arranged to lift things to the chuck... all the wiring done... I just need to program the VFD and get the QCTP mounted... then level and align... and I am ready to make chips.  Just wish I had more time for the machine shop...



Hey John,

The 'big' cap is an electrolytic. You should have three loose caps that all look identical except for what is written on them.


----------



## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Thanks guys. Will re-level this evening and maybe even get to some test cuts.
> 
> When the lathe bed was level, I had about .003" of taper across a 9-10" cut on a 2" diameter piece. Taper was towards the tailstock end, so it sounds like the headstock is pointed ever so slightly towards the operator.
> 
> I don't think I had any 'spring out' on the unsupported end, as the taper was at that end, and I literally could take a half thou cut and ended up with only .00075 deviation across the entire piece.  Oh, and those shiny cutting inserts for aluminum? Razor sharp. Don't ask how I found that out...



I wonder if you just snugged up the headstock bolts if that .003 would vanish? Yeah I learned to use the insert tool to handle them they are sharp, still I hate a paper cut worst of all.


----------



## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> I wonder if you just snugged up the headstock bolts if that .003 would vanish?



I agree, it isn't going to take much. I'm thinking that once I get it level I'll put the test piece back in, make a small truing cut rather than zero out the set tru, and if still out put a DI on the tailstock end and try the headstock bolts to see if/how much it will move.

If I'm still out the .003 I only need to move the headstock/test piece .0015.


----------



## GA Gyro

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey John,
> 
> The 'big' cap is an electrolytic. You should have three loose caps that all look identical except for what is written on them.



Hmmm... then I may be missing one... I need to download the videos from the site and figure out the parts lists.

THX for the heads up.


----------



## wrmiller

Don't need the videos. Go to the 'Docs' section of the website and download the manual. It has the complete parts list with descriptions, instructions on building and operating it.


----------



## wrmiller

Well after much back and forth with the bubble level and then the headstock, I have it down to .0006" across 10" of cut. Except it's the other way now, i.e. taper increases away from the headstock but I'm too tired and out of patience to mess with it anymore... 

But then in all honesty I doubt I even need that level of accuracy for anything I do so I'll go ahead and call it good enough.


----------



## Rich V

0.0006 on 10" sounds pretty darn good. Did you need to loosen the head to align it or just tighten down the head bolts?

My PM1340gt ships next month.



wrmiller19 said:


> Well after much back and forth with the bubble level and then the headstock, I have it down to .0006" across 10" of cut. Except it's the other way now, i.e. taper increases away from the headstock but I'm too tired and out of patience to mess with it anymore...
> 
> But then in all honesty I doubt I even need that level of accuracy for anything I do so I'll go ahead and call it good enough.


----------



## wrmiller

Rich V said:


> 0.0006 on 10" sounds pretty darn good. Did you need to loosen the head to align it or just tighten down the head bolts?
> 
> My PM1340gt ships next month.



I used the alignment bolts as a quick 'test pull' on a allen wrench on one of the end head bolts had me moving the lathe. They were pretty snug. 

  I have switched over to a link belt for the motor drive and made mine a bit longer such that the motor now sits almost level and gives me a bit of room between it and the lathe bed/headstock. But then I had to notch the change gear cover to give a bit more clearance for the motor pulley. Always tradeoffs. 

But while easier to get to, it's still pretty tight back there.


----------



## wrmiller

Rich V said:


> My PM1340gt ships next month.



Congrats on the new lathe (sorry I missed this earlier)!

The waiting stinks, but once you get it all the frustration of waiting just fades away. It's a great lathe IMO, and I think you will enjoy it.


----------



## Rich V

wrmiller19 said:


> Congrats on the new lathe (sorry I missed this earlier)!
> 
> The waiting stinks, but once you get it all the frustration of waiting just fades away. It's a great lathe IMO, and I think you will enjoy it.



Thanks I'm looking forward to getting my grubbies on it soon.


----------



## maker of things

wrmiller19 said:


> Well after much back and forth with the bubble level and then the headstock, I have it down to .0006" across 10" of cut. Except it's the other way now


Now you might be seeing the flex in your stock.   Crimeny! 3 tenths. over 10", could just be surface finish variation, or you trapped a chunk of ozone under your mic on one end.


----------



## wrmiller

maker of things said:


> Now you might be seeing the flex in your stock.   Crimeny! 3 tenths. over 10", could just be surface finish variation, or you trapped a chunk of ozone under your mic on one end.



Hey Jon,

Yea, I figured that I was well past the point of just 'chasing zeros' and called it good. I am really in love with this lathe though. I had that 2" piece hanging out of that big-arsed chuck and just for giggles spun it up to about 1600 rpm and my halogen light which is mounted to the flimsy back splash wouldn't even vibrate. Smoooooth. 

Oh, and check your email.


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## coolidge

Ozone that's funny. Here's one, to block neutrino particles you would need a plate of lead...a light year thick dang.


----------



## wrmiller

It's alive!  







Now I just have to fab a mount for it and the sensor.


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## brav65

wrmiller19 said:


> It's alive!
> 
> View attachment 104882
> 
> 
> Now I just have to fab a mount for it and the sensor.


Nice work Bill mine is still in the box!


----------



## mksj

Hey Bill, looking good. Be sure to note/measure the distance to the optical sensor to the reflective markers, as it is quite important to for consistent readings. I also had problems when I grounded the shield in the cable going to the optical sensor, picked up the VFD noise. I ended up leaving the shield not connected at both ends. MacTach is very stable, and nice to have the SFM readings,


----------



## GA Gyro

wrmiller19 said:


> It's alive!
> 
> View attachment 104882
> 
> 
> Now I just have to fab a mount for it and the sensor.



MAJOR COOL...

As Brooks says... mine is still in the box...
And it probably will stay there for a while...
AC season is just too good (so far) this year. 
The thing about being self employed... is you make up for the lean years... by working too many hours in the good years...


----------



## wrmiller

mksj said:


> Hey Bill, looking good. Be sure to note/measure the distance to the optical sensor to the reflective markers, as it is quite important to for consistent readings. I also had problems when I grounded the shield in the cable going to the optical sensor, picked up the VFD noise. I ended up leaving the shield not connected at both ends. MacTach is very stable, and nice to have the SFM readings,



So what did you end up with for sensor distance?


----------



## mksj

Too close or too far and it will error. I started with the optical, but switched to a use a hall sensor. Per the manual for the optical pick-up, they recommend 0.15-0.20". If your RPM is erratic, then you can try to tweak the distance.  You also need to set the number of reflective strips (or magnets) per revolution. I found the RPM measured to be very close to the stated RPM on the lathe for a given gear at 60Hz. I have almost no variation/change in RPM once set, even under load. So the VFD does maintain the speed well.


----------



## wrmiller

Ok, thanks. I am going to try using the IR sensor as well, but bought the hall effect sensor just in case. How did you mount the hall effect and magnets?


----------



## mksj

Hall sensor/optical sensor mount uses the same base secured to the head by a single mounting screw, just that the hall sensor was epoxied to a small adjustable aluminum slide, there is a notch at the end that just fits the hall sensor. I machined an optical toothed gear, but embedded magnets in the teeth at a later point. If I where to do it again, I would machine a plain round aluminum ring drill shallow holes for the magnets and epoxy them in. I would use metal epoxy which is stronger than the standard stuff. I use 3 small set screws to hold the ring in place.


----------



## wrmiller

Couldn't get the IR sensor to switch below about 3.5v Adjusted the sensor distance and angle as well as the  trim pot. Nadda. Don't feel like it right now, but will probably wire up the hall effect and give it a try. Right now I'm just tired of messing with it.


----------



## JimDawson

wrmiller19 said:


> Couldn't get the IR sensor to switch below about 3.5v Adjusted the sensor distance and angle as well as the  trim pot. Nadda. Don't feel like it right now, but will probably wire up the hall effect and give it a try. Right now I'm just tired of messing with it.



Maybe pull it low with a pull down resistor?  Maybe the load has too high impedance, I've had to do this with inputs on occasion.


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## wrmiller

And finally mounted and working. Took a few days of back and forth with Henry to figure out a wiring mistake in the documentation. I of course, followed it to the letter. But all better now.






Didn't get fancy with the mount, but I did make it so I could adjust it up or down and rotate it if necessary.


----------



## coolidge

Bill if your ceiling ever collapses don't worry the DRO bracket will hold it up dang  lol. Congrats glad you got this all working now, its been quite the project I have enjoyed this thread.


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## wrmiller

I was going to make a knurled brass hat for the set screw, bevel all the edges, countersink the screws, and polish everything up when I realized it's just a display bracket. Got a little carried away I guess.


----------



## Cosmo71

Beautiful lathe Bill!  Thanks for all your informative posts.


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## wrmiller

You're quite welcome. Thank you for reading this stuff. 

Still making mods to it (doing one right now) but they are mostly little stiff. Will post them when complete.


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## brav65

Looking good Bill. We may have a contest to see who has the cleanest lathe on the site!


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## wrmiller

Not right now...she's got oil, cutting fluid, and chips all over her. 

Oh...and as a FYI for those who have or are thinking about a 1340GT: I purchased a can of CRC Open Gear & Chain Lube for the secondary gearbox. After attempting to blindly spray this stuff up into the gearbox (and getting it everywhere), I decided to pull the front cover. This allowed me to clean up in there a bit and then hose everything down with this stuff. I let it sit for a few minutes and then put it back together. And nothing is flinging out the bottom so far...

Four SHCSs and she pulls right off. Careful of the guide pins and the feed/thread selector when removing/re-installing. 5 min. job, tops.


----------



## wrmiller

Next mod: Compound lock.

Got tired of reaching for, or trying to remember where I left the 3mm allen wrench for locking/unlocking the compound. So I decided to try replicating a compound lock I saw in a picture somewhere on a bigger lathe (16x40?). Spent a lot of time visualizing (I don't do drawings, other than scribbles on a whiteboard) and flying by the seat of my pants, but I only had to remake one part in all this. Not too shabby for a hack. 







The pin/rest keeps the locking lever from catching on anything when moving the compound back and forth.





Not much to look at, but works great. I even managed to keep the ball bearing that goes between the screw and the gib even though I tried to lose it several times...


----------



## maker of things

That looks like a very worthwhile project.


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## wrmiller

maker of things said:


> That looks like a very worthwhile project.



Thanks. When threading it is quite the time saver.


----------



## AirWolf

Yes, quite a nice little time saver there... 

BTW - that's a very expensive lunch counter in your avatar photo.


----------



## wrmiller

lunch counter?


----------



## AirWolf

Yea
 I see your lunch sitting on a very expensive "lunch counter"  ha ha


----------



## wrmiller

Ah...

Actually, this was taken at my friend's shop. He asked me to do some machining on this little part and I was standing in front of the Comet, staring at this thing trying to figure out how I was going to hold it properly to make the cuts when he says "hey" and I looked up to see a camera pointed at me. He just thought it was funny to see me standing there staring at this little part...


----------



## AirWolf

With all the great things I have been reading the past month or so in this and other threads on the PM forum, and especially how you guys certainly help each other out...  I made the decision today to purchase the PM1340GT. 

My grandfather always stated when purchasing something always buy the best value you can possibly afford... that way you won't regret buying something less down the road; And if it is some type of tool or equipment, you can't blame the tool... only your own understanding / knowledge / or skill of what input it needs from yourself to do whatever it is you want it to do... 

S0 I have purchased a bit over my head as far as my grandfathers advice concerning my knowledge and skills - however I am looking forward to a great learning curve.

Matt states it's going to be a couple of months out - but that gives me time to start preparing my small workshop area in my garage. 

Many thanks to all of you to give me the courage to start a journey I have thought about for years.

Dale


----------



## AirWolf

- I see says the blind man---

looks like a sandwich in your hand and on the table ( my mind may be playing games with me as being hungry as well) ... so I thought you were using it like a small table... my mistake.


----------



## wrmiller

No prob.

And nice choice on the lathe.


----------



## mksj

Hey Bill, liked your compound lock, so decided to play with my 5C chuck and do some small scale turning. Great idea, used a spring damper to hold the arm position. The control knobs are next.


----------



## wrmiller

Very nice! Didn't consider a spring.

I kept the SB for exactly this kind of small stuff. Not interested in attempting a 1911 firing pin with my 8" Pratt.


----------



## wrmiller

So I figured that it was time to check the level/accuracy of the lathe again. Last time, I used the old school method of leveling the bed, test cuts, then tweaking the tailstock end of the lathe to bring in the accuracy. Then Matt told me about the headstock adjusters. Doh!!

So this time I put the bed back to perfectly level (well, as perfect as a starett level and these old eyes can get), did some test cuts, and found that I was out about a thou over 9". This was a week or so ago. I let the lathe relax a bit and then today I decided to adjust the headstock. Took a few tries, but I ended up with the exact same reading over 9". Measured 4 times and came up with the same numbers. Figured that I couldn't do that again on a bet, so decided to call it good enough.   










Love this lathe! Thanks to the guys here who unknowingly convinced me to step up. LOL...


----------



## RIO

wrmiller said:


> then today I decided to adjust the headstock. Took a few tries,



Hey Bill, can you give a word or two and a pic of the adjustment turns you made on the screws to get the headstock/spindle alignment perfectly true to the bed?  I bought this expensive test bar (probably unnecessary), and made a couple very minor tweaks to the headstock, but I wander if I'm doing it right.
There probably is a headstock alignment thread with plenty of details somewhere, but specifically, I want to hear a little more specifics from a PM1340GT brother specifically  
RIO


----------



## wrmiller

RIO said:


> Hey Bill, can you give a word or two and a pic of the adjustment turns you made on the screws to get the headstock/spindle alignment perfectly true to the bed?  I bought this expensive test bar (probably unnecessary), and made a couple very minor tweaks to the headstock, but I wander if I'm doing it right.
> There probably is a headstock alignment thread with plenty of details somewhere, but specifically, I want to hear a little more specifics from a PM1340GT brother specifically
> RIO



Hey Dude,

Well I can try...  

My test cuts were showing the unsupported end to be one thou larger in diameter than the end near the chuck, over a 9" cut length. I visualized this in my head as the spindle pointing slightly inwards, or towards the backsplash. As the amount the spindle was off was pretty small, I did NOT loosen the headstock bolts, but instead I hoped that I could tweak the right-most bolt in the picture below just enough to bring the headstock/spindle in alignment with the bed. It took a few tries, as I went at the bolt easy at first to keep from overshooting and chasing my tail. First tweak, no change. Apply more grunt. Second try, no measurable change. Third try I gave the t-handle wrench a bit more grunt and probably only turned the bolt about 1/8th of a turn, and it came out perfect. Just blind luck I guess.


----------



## RIO

Perfect.  That gives me a "warm fuzzy".  I did the same, only with a test bar and 1/10th indicator.  The test cut method is probably better.  Main reason?  The test bar is a MT3, which is fine, but the MT3 adaptor from QMT has runout.  So much for a high-precision test bar if it's inserted in a MT3 adaptor with runout.
I'm going to check it with a test cut next.

Nice work Bill.
"Better lucky than good any day"  is what I say. 
RIO


----------



## wrmiller

I seriously considered a test bar, but I have this really accurate chuck so I just stuck a 2" piece of aluminum in it and started cutting. The major side benefit was getting a feel for how the lathe and tooling worked together.


----------



## mksj

Seems pretty common to have some misalignment, my headstock was out about 0.001" at 6" and at first was a bit hesitant to mess with the headstock (not knowing squat about lathes). When I did my headstock alignment,  I used an 18" 1" precision ground bar that was chucked in my 4J independent with 12" hanging out. I used a 0.0001" dial indicator and checked it along the bar at different points. Used the Jog with low gearing and look at the +/- swing from 0, and did the headstock alignment so that it is the same +/- swing at different points along the bar with it dead nuts at the chuck. Turning the chuck manually, one can see some change from the hand pressure. This minimizes the affect of any misalignment from the jaws, but my Bison 4J combo runs very true (slightly better than my PBA). Then check a test cut as Bill did, assuming your chuck turns true. Like Bill, very small tweaking of the head stock alignment bolts is needed. Also make sure you recheck the lathe bed level prior to the headstock alignment.

Most of the precision test bars I have seen are made in India, they are usually listed as something like 0.0001"maximum run out (not sure over what distance, or this is the TIR at any one point)? I would have used a 5MT test bar if going this route, as the 3MT to 5MTadapter can add error as Rio noted. Looked into getting one, but it is aligned fine as is, and anything further than 6" you would probably use a tailstock, which has a much greater affect. Using collets, like 5C, they can be easily be out 0.001" at 4-6". Bill is fortunate to have a big honking chuck that runs very true. Pretty impressive accuracy on Bill's part.


----------



## sanddan

The nice thing about machining a bar is it will give you a cylinder concentric to the lathe spindle, no run out issues. I did a bar similar to Bill's but setup an indicator at the end of the bar when doing the headstock adjustment. That allowed me to see how much movement I was getting with the screw. It isn't a one to one relationship to the test bar but does gives you some feedback.


----------



## wrmiller

sanddan, I thought about putting a DI on the end of the bar when I made the adjustments, but I was chasing such a small number and I wasn't sure there would be a direct correlation between the observed movement and what the cuts produced?

I profess that I'm not an expert at this stuff, and just kinda muddle my way through it.


----------



## RIO

mksj said:


> Pretty impressive accuracy on Bill's part.



I agree, Mark.  If I recall correctly, I think Mike (zmotorsports) did exactly the same thing in his initial setup and "shacked" it within .0001.  In his PM1340GT setup thread somewhere I think.
I think I'll give it a try next.
RIO


----------



## wrmiller

The only drawback to this is I can't blame the machine when I screw up...


----------



## zmotorsports

RIO said:


> I agree, Mark.  If I recall correctly, I think Mike (zmotorsports) did exactly the same thing in his initial setup and "shacked" it within .0001.  In his PM1340GT setup thread somewhere I think.
> I think I'll give it a try next.
> RIO



This is correct.  I was able to get it extremely close.  I checked it about a year ago and it was still on but I am getting ready to build a new stand similar to Dan's this summer and will need to go through it all over again.

Mike.


----------



## zmotorsports

RIO said:


> I agree, Mark.  If I recall correctly, I think Mike (zmotorsports) did exactly the same thing in his initial setup and "shacked" it within .0001.  In his PM1340GT setup thread somewhere I think.
> I think I'll give it a try next.
> RIO



This is correct.  I was able to get it extremely close.  I checked it about a year ago and it was still on but I am getting ready to build a new stand similar to Dan's this summer and will need to go through it all over again.

Mike.


----------



## zmotorsports

RIO said:


> I agree, Mark.  If I recall correctly, I think Mike (zmotorsports) did exactly the same thing in his initial setup and "shacked" it within .0001.  In his PM1340GT setup thread somewhere I think.
> I think I'll give it a try next.
> RIO



This is correct.  I was able to get it extremely close.  I checked it about a year ago and it was still on but I am getting ready to build a new stand similar to Dan's this summer and will need to go through it all over again.

Mike.


----------



## jbolt

mksj said:


> Most of the precision test bars I have seen are made in India, they are usually listed as something like 0.0001"maximum run out (not sure over what distance, or this is the TIR at any one point)?



Most test bars are listed in parallelism at 0.0002". I have two, a MT4 & MT5. I had both measured and they came in under that in Dia., between centers and to the taper. I had the test bars measured when I was getting out of spec readings on a lathe spindle taper. The lathe spindle taper was out of spec.


----------



## Randbo

sanddan said:


> The nice thing about machining a bar is it will give you a cylinder concentric to the lathe spindle, no run out issues. I did a bar similar to Bill's but setup an indicator at the end of the bar when doing the headstock adjustment. That allowed me to see how much movement I was getting with the screw. It isn't a one to one relationship to the test bar but does gives you some feedback.


That's correct sanddan. This is my 2 cents worth....When you chuck up a bar to machine, and use it for checking spindle to bed alignment... i.e... Headstock alignment, any runout in the chuck or work piece is irrelevant. One you turn down the piece it becomes true to the spindle as well as taking on the spindle to bed accuracy. Any runout in the chuck is canceled out as it rotates. (Because it's making a circle) If its out neg 10 thousands one way, 180 degrees from there it will be out pos 10 thousands. Thus offsetting any effect on the final accuracy. This is assuming though you don't take the piece out of the chuck. Once you do that you have to start over. Because your cutting tool follows the bed of the lathe, it will true the part to the accuracy of the spindle/bed combination no matter how much runout you have in the shaft or chuck. (assuming you are not deflecting the work by taking too heavy of a cut) you just have to make sure the diameter is large enough to makeup for the loss of material you machine off due to runout.  Once the shaft is completely cleaned up and concentric,  it will give you an exact reading of your headstock to bed accuracy. It seems some people don't understand the logic behind this test. 
I like to tease my guys at work sometimes, and we were talking about headstock accuracy on the lathe. They told me you needed a precision test bar to measure this. I disagreed. I told them we could chuck up any old piece of steel or aluminum in there, machine it, and I would get an accurate reading. So the bet was on. At this point we already knew the headstock alignment was .0003 at 7 inches. I chucked up a piece of 2 inch steel about 12 inches long. Threw it in the lathe and just set it to about .010 runout at the outer end of the shaft. (This was to prove my point) took several light cuts till it was all cleaned up. Marked two spots 7 inches apart. Pulled out the mic and bam... .0003 difference.
There still is a reason to get the shaft chucked up with as little runout as possible.... Because the truer it is the less cuts you need to make!
This test is for checking the alignment of the Z to the X axis. It's assuming the Y axis is accurate. You can get bed twist that will mimic a headstock alignment issue. That's why it's important to make sure your lathe is dead nuts level before trying to adjust the headstock. You can also check to make sure your headstock is aligned to your cross slide (X Axis) by chucking a large diameter piece in the chuck, do a facing cut and sweep across it with a dial indicator


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## wrmiller

"Lots of people don't understand the logic behind this test."

I'm not even close to being a machinist and it makes perfect sense to me. I don't question your comment, but I don't understand how this could be misunderstood by some folks if explained properly?


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## Randbo

wrmiller said:


> "Lots of people don't understand the logic behind this test."
> 
> I'm not even close to being a machinist and it makes perfect sense to me. I don't question your comment, but I don't understand how this could be misunderstood by some folks if explained properly?


I shouldn't say lots I guess, but I'm always hearing how you need a "precision" test bar for this. It's nice, but unnecessary. I think people tend to assume that if there's runout at the end of the shaft it will remove more metal then towards the chuck thus affecting the final readings? At least I can see how someone would think that.
I agree that it's all in the explanation, not that I'm very good at explaining it. I think this is one of those things that it would be easier to show.


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## wrmiller

I scored very high in spatial acuity and am comfortable thinking in pictures. Yea, I'm weird...


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## Randbo

wrmiller said:


> I scored very high in spatial acuity and am comfortable thinking in pictures. Yea, I'm weird...


Guess I'm weird too. I prefer pictures.


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## RIO

So, I used that high-dollar test bar to tweak the headstock alignment, and here is my first test cut after doing that.
Now the question:  do I mess with it again, or call it good?  (I probably won't rest until it's to the tenth)













- RIO


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## Randbo

RIO said:


> So, I used that high-dollar test bar to tweak the headstock alignment, and here is my first test cut after doing that.
> Now the question:  do I mess with it again, or call it good?  (I probably won't rest until it's to the tenth)
> 
> View attachment 127018
> 
> 
> View attachment 127019
> 
> 
> 
> - RIO


.0003 over 9 isn't too shabby. You could probably just every so slightly crank on the bolt that's more towards the tail stock. Wouldn't take much at all. When you get down to that little, it sometimes feels like you're chasing your tail ya know?? Mine tends to fluctuate between .0002 and .0003 over 6-7 inches depending on the material I'm cutting and the feed rate. I'm curious RIO, is your measurement consistent all the way across the finished surface? The reason I ask is the other day I was machining a 304 stainless shaft and it would be consistent within 2 tenths all the way across on both ends except, for one area 2-3 inches from the chuck, that would randomly increase .001 for a couple inches, then go back to my original setting. It was weird. Think I finally decided it must be something in the material over that area. Normally that would indicate a worn bed. But obviously that can't be the issue here,


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## mksj

RIO said:


> Now the question: do I mess with it again, or call it good? (I probably won't rest until it's to the tenth)


I think we end up chasing our tail on this one. Chuck it up a little different you might get something else. Use another chuck, it may be better, but usually worse, the material, cutting tool and depth of cut will also factor in. I just do not have faith that the chuck can hold the material true out to 9" and expect to hit something like 0.0002" repeatably. Let alone change chucks, and trying to get the same accuracy. I have read several posts where gunsmiths have aligned their 4J independent and then never took it off the lathe thereafter.


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## zmotorsports

Agree with Mark.  You may end up chasing your tail or be off the other way by more than what you started with.  A variance of .0003" in 9" is actually pretty respectable.

Mike.


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## wrmiller

Confused. Once you chuck a piece of material and cut/true it, it no longer matters how the chuck is holding the piece. 

Unless you guys are talking about how repeatable a chuck can re-grasp the same piece over and over?


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## mksj

wrmiller said:


> Unless you guys are talking about how repeatable a chuck can re-grasp the same piece over and over



This is the repeatability if rechucked, rotated, or the chuck removed/remounted or changed. I use an index mark on the spindle and my chucks, so at least I mount them back up in the same position (I do notice a difference). Chucks/backing plates and collets can have a bit of skew when holding material, so alignment is for the most part relative to work holding system you are using and the piece that is chucked up.  My 5C collet chuck has a TIR of about 0.0002" at the nose, but different collets can be out quite a bit at 4-6". 

It would be interesting to do some test passes on the stock, with it chucked at different rotated positions and compare the results.
Mark


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## wrmiller

Ah, got it. This is the main reason I have this massive PBA set-tru chuck. I don't bother with this for normal stuff, but when necessary I can re-chuck a piece and near zero it every time if called for (like a barrel or something).


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## Randbo

wrmiller said:


> Ah, got it. This is the main reason I have this massive PBA set-tru chuck. I don't bother with this for normal stuff, but when necessary I can re-chuck a piece and near zero it every time if called for (like a barrel or something).


I'm like you Bill. 90% of the time though I don't actually use a "basic" 3 jaw scroll chuck. (Unless I'm just doing some super quick turning of something and don't really care about accuracy)
But instead of a set-tru, I use a 4 jaw independent chuck. I actually find it quicker and easier to indicate something in the 4 jaw independent  chuck than a set-tru. I can usually get it to under 4 tenths in less than 2 minutes. This way I'm able to get high repeatable accuracy if I'm taking the part in and out of the chuck.  I learned this technique from many professional machinists over the years, though I definitely don't clam to be one. From what I've seen and been told, most professional machinists use 4 jaw chucks exclusively. Matter of fact if you go on YouTube you will find videos of machinists engaged in competitions of who can dial-In the 4 jaw independent the fastest.


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## wrmiller

As I said earlier, I'm just weird I guess. I can dial in a 3-jaw set-tru faster than I can a four-jaw. But in all honesty I've only used a four-jaw a handful of times. I've dialed in a set-tru tens if not hundreds of times. 

I do my non-roundie stuff almost exclusively on the mill. 

And I also am no where near a machinist. I just play with their toys.


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## wrmiller

Other ruminations: I know some folks almost exclusively use a four-jaw, but I have no desire to dial in every piece I chuck up. To me that's time I can better spend doing other things. Besides, this PBA once dialed in to a diameter will repeat much more accurately than any other 3-jaw I've ever owned. Even if the next piece is of a different diameter but within .5-1" or so of the piece dialed in.

But having said that, this chuck is probably a whole lot more, cost-wise, than most hobby/home machinists want to spend on a chuck to just play around in the garage.


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## mksj

The PBA chucks are surprisingly accurate and well made, and my take on the Set-Tru is you set it once and leave it as such. It is not really made to be tweaked every time you chuck something up. I have this on my 5C and PBA chuck, and agree that they consistently maintain better than a 0.0004" TIR with different stock chucked up. Makes for quick work. My main gripe with 4J independent is if you are doing a lot of repeat work, getting the stock in/out is a pain, and then readjusting. So I mostly use my 8" combo which does both scroll and independent, switching out stock repeats to around 0.002"or better. A quick tweak on the independent scrolls and you are dialed in in about 30 seconds. Like Bills large PBA, these are expensive chucks but worth it in my book as I plan on using it the rest of my life.


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## Rich V

I'm on the same page Bill. I use my 6 jaw set true almost exclusively on the lathe. Takes 30 seconds to get a piece running under 0.0005, a bit more if I want it as true as the chuck/piece will allow. The 4 jaw gets used for odd shapes or if I want an off center cut. 

I'm looking to upscale my 6 inch 6 jaw to an 8 inch 6 jaw to take full advantage of the PM1340. The 6 inch I have resided on my little Southbend 9 inch lathe for the last 15 years. Too many toys on my list and to little $ to get all of them. decisions, decisions.....




wrmiller said:


> As I said earlier, I'm just weird I guess. I can dial in a 3-jaw set-tru faster than I can a four-jaw. But in all honesty I've only used a four-jaw a handful of times. I've dialed in a set-tru tens if not hundreds of times.
> 
> I do my non-roundie stuff almost exclusively on the mill.
> 
> And I also am no where near a machinist. I just play with their toys.


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## wrmiller

I like the idea of a 6-jaw, I just don't know if I can justify another $1500 to get it.


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## Rich V

Way to rich for my wallet. I'm looking at the Gator 8" EA Series 6-Jaw Adjustable Chuck, these can be had for ~$540



wrmiller said:


> I like the idea of a 6-jaw, I just don't know if I can justify another $1500 to get it.


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## wrmiller

Is that forged? The gator 8" forged set-tru I saw on fleabay was over $1100.


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## jbolt

mksj said:


> My 5C collet chuck has a TIR of about 0.0002" at the nose, but different collets can be out quite a bit at 4-6".



5c collets are not the best choice for work that far out of the chuck. Because 5C collets pinch the stock at the front edge there is always a chance of error due to the stock inside the collet not having the same hold. Assuming the stock is within a few thousands of the collet diameter, 2 to 3 times the diameter is about all I will do before using a center to support the work. If the stock is more than a few thou under size then a center should be used for extended work. 

For precision 5C collets, Hardinge collets are as good as they get but they come at a cost.

The other thing that affects run-out with 5C collets is the fit of the tail end of the collet in the collet chuck.  I have found that low cost imports (chucks & collets) can have a lot of variation.


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## Rich V

That's for the semi-steel chuck Bill. It's rated to 2000 RPM so a good match for the PM1340. 



wrmiller said:


> Is that forged? The gator 8" forged set-tru I saw on fleabay was over $1100.


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## Randbo

wrmiller said:


> Other ruminations: I know some folks almost exclusively use a four-jaw, but I have no desire to dial in every piece I chuck up. To me that's time I can better spend doing other things. Besides, this PBA once dialed in to a diameter will repeat much more accurately than any other 3-jaw I've ever owned. Even if the next piece is of a different diameter but within .5-1" or so of the piece dialed in.
> 
> But having said that, this chuck is probably a whole lot more, cost-wise, than most hobby/home machinists want to spend on a chuck to just play around in the garage.


Yes I agree. A scroll is much more convenient and quick for set up. I have no argument there. I don't look down on anyone, or blame them for using one.
 For me its always about increasing my skills. (even if it takes me longer) Because for me I become more productive in the long run, even if it doesn't work like that right away.  I will almost always do the toughest setup possible to push myself beyond my comfort zone. At work I just knock it out as fast as possible, because time is money. At home I don't care how long it takes. I look at home machining as education more than being fast or doing things the easiest way.  I consider the independent 4 jaw tougher to dial in, and taking a higher skill set, so that's what I focus on. The more I do it, the faster and better I get. And that's ultimately what I'm working towards. Anyways, that's the simple explanation of why I mostly use the 4 jaw independent chuck. Did I mention I'm weird and eccentric?


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## mksj

jbolt said:


> The other thing that affects run-out with 5C collets is the fit of the tail end of the collet in the collet chuck. I have found that low cost imports (chucks & collets) can have a lot of variation.


Agree on all points, that is why I currently have a Bison Set-Tru 5C, the generic Chinese 5C brands (which I have had a few) where pretty bad. I use Lyndex 5C collets in 1/64th increments. Even with all this, collet to collet TIR can vary quite a bit based on what you mentioned. I also have an ER-40 system that was given to me, but haven't used that in the lathe. I would expect it to hold better tolerance, but a bit more inconvenient to use. I just mention the different work holding systems and chucks, that chasing a 10,000th here or there is probably not worth the effort when you factor in all the other variables at this level of machinery. 

On the 6J, there was also a previous post on the Shar's Set-Tru version and he was pretty happy with it, but I have purchased several Gator backing plates and the recent quality level has been very good. Seems to be a bit variable, but according to Ajax Industries who sells a number of brands, they feel the Gator is comparable to Bison in quality. The parts are literally interchangeable. Gator chucks also have a 2 year warranty.  Still the Gator 6J in an 8" steel body Tru-Adj style is $1200, the Semi-Steel Tru-Adj version is $800 with a  backing plate. I wouldn't spend this kind of money and not get a Tru-Adj version.


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## Rich V

Instead of using a separate collet chuck I use an ER straight shank collet holder in my 6 jaw. Works great for the smaller diameter parts and with the set-tru 6 jaw I can dial in to very good TIR. Best is I don't have to switch out the chuck from the lathe.
http://www.amazon.com/C32-ER32-100L...g-Extension&qid=1460745002&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1


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## wrmiller

Rich V said:


> Instead of using a separate collet chuck I use an ER straight shank collet holder in my 6 jaw. Works great for the smaller diameter parts and with the set-tru 6 jaw I can dial in to very good TIR. Best is I don't have to switch out the chuck from the lathe.



I don't have that particular one, but I too have a ER32 straight shank collet chuck that I grab with the PBA for really small stuff and/or working real close to the chuck (I REALLY don't like getting too close to this 8" PBA when I'm spinning it anywhere near 2k rpm. One little slip...    )


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## Randbo

wrmiller said:


> I don't have that particular one, but I too have a ER32 straight shank collet chuck that I grab with the PBA for really small stuff and/or working real close to the chuck (I REALLY don't like getting too close to this 8" PBA when I'm spinning it anywhere near 2k rpm. One little slip...    )


Yeah that could make for a really bad day! I'm looking at getting a ER32 straight collet chuck like that. Its on the never ending list.... ha


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## Rich V

Hi Bill
In case you are still in the market for a 6 jaw set true chuck I just purchased the Gator 8" EA Series 6-Jaw Adjustable Chuck and the corresponding D4 back plate for $660 free drop shipping from Gator ($534 - chuck, $125 - back plate) from http://www.allindustrial.com/lathe-...8-ea-series-6jaw-adjustable-chuck-p-3475.html
Price may go up soon I was told.



wrmiller said:


> I like the idea of a 6-jaw, I just don't know if I can justify another $1500 to get it.


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