# My Biggest Pet Peeve AS A Hobby Machinist



## TorontoBuilder (Oct 17, 2022)

I was speaking with the owner of a commercial machine shop last night and found out that he too sometimes has the same issue I do... the issue I hate more than anything.

A little more about his business, he makes machined parts for various industries. He has two cnc lathes (I got to see one run, cool) two cnc mills, manual mills and lathes, etc and outsources things like bending and anondizing.

So many hobbyists too rely on outsourcing things we just can't do such as water jet cutting, EDM work, anodizing to name a few, and so so often when we reach out to small and medium sized businesses seeking their services those businesses either don't respond at all our are dismissive of our requests.

Case in point, back on May 2, 2022, at 11:39 AM I reached out to the sales department of Greenerd to inquire if they still produce and sell arbor presses and stops after seeing their literature. I want a stop for my 3E press. The website does not make it clear one way or the other.

They did not even acknowledge my email. Zip nada, nothing.  I have a word for those types.

The same applies to a local heat treating company I requested a quotation from for cryogenic HT for wood lathe bowl gouge blanks I ground


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## benmychree (Oct 17, 2022)

So, make your own ---


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 17, 2022)

benmychree said:


> So, make your own ---


Yeah in the case of the depth stop I already have the plans drawn up. 

But, you miss the point. The service industry and small manufacturing is broken. 

That option does not exist for the heat treating, the lathe bed grinding nor the plastic extrusions I wanted of the EDM cut stamping dies I need.


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## great white (Oct 17, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> Yeah in the case of the depth stop I already have the plans drawn up.
> 
> But, you miss the point. The service industry and small manufacturing is broken.
> 
> That option does not exist for the heat treating, the lathe bed grinding nor the plastic extrusions I wanted of the EDM cut stamping dies I need.


I’d say the problem is most shops want to do production runs, not onesies and twosies.

I can almost guarantee that if you sent that place an email stating you wanted 50 or 100 of that piece they’d be writing you back.

Very few will do a production run and let it sit on the shelf waiting for someone to need them. It just ties up capital in the hopes they sell them all. Its not a good business practice when an owner/manager is trying to maximize profit and lower costs (their costs, not yours).

Or, shops that will do one or two of something are going to charge high prices for the piece. Mainly because of labor cost and having to cover the purchase and maintenance of some very expensive machinery. Its not like a lot places in the world (like India) where they can pay someone a couple bucks a day to punch out stuff on machinery that looks so okd that it could have been in the machine shop on the Titanic.

Sucks, but thats the way business has gone in most NA shops. Small shops that will do that kind of work are a rarity these days and most are either out of business or on their way out…


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## Chips O'Toole (Oct 17, 2022)

Professional machining is full of rude people. Have you been to Practical Machinist? Unbelievable manners. All sorts of filthy insults flying around. When I go there, I behave as though I were dealing with mental patients.

I belong to a bunch of forums. I've learned people with certain interests are nicer than others. Bodybuilders, fishermen, and gun people tend to be astoundingly conceited and rude. Woodworkers are okay. DIY people are okay. I haven't had any problems on tractor websites. Electronics people can be trying, but that's the nature of the breed. I don't think they can help it.

Habitual tourists are really rude. If you want to be insulted, try Tripadvisor. Food forums are full of, well, I won't use the word.

Religious forums are amazingly unpleasant.

Some of the worst treatment I've gotten was on an Alzheimer's forum when I was looking after my dad. Bunch of real jewels over there.

I assume the way certain types of people behave on the web is in line with the way they act in the actual world, except some tone it down in real life because they don't want to eat fists all day.


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 17, 2022)

great white said:


> I’d say the problem is most shops want to do production runs, not onesies and twosies.
> 
> Very few will do a production run and let it sit on the shelf waiting for someone to need them. It just ties up capital in the hopes they sell them all. Its not a good business practice when an owner/manager is trying to maximize profit and lower costs (their costs, not yours).
> 
> ...



The fallacy of the small shop owner is that many high volume low mark up parts is better than low volume high mark up parts. 

In business class we learned the need to know your total operating costs down to the hourly cost to run any process.  

I ran a business that served two distinct markets, production builders who were outright cheap, very cheap and cared little about the quality of the end product, only about price and code compliance... and architects and their clientele who cares far less about my charges versus the quality ie comfort, durability and cost to operate of their finished homes. 

Neither class of client got turned away. They just paid vastly different prices based on the level of service that they got.

It's very poor business person who decides that I wont pay a high rate for a service rather than letting me decide for myself. I've a history of paying for what I need versus not getting anything


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 17, 2022)

let me clarify further... I'm willing to pay the hourly rate for a heat treatment oven for a full cycle, whether it be for 2 parts or 100 parts. 

also, I had been intending to make enough gouge inserts to be able to sell inserts to fit turning tool handles where the original manufacturer went out of business and some of the owners are willing to pay a high price for the best. Why would I do this? Not for profit, but to make them accessible to me too.


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## Ulma Doctor (Oct 17, 2022)

I make part of my living doing onsies and twosies of obsolete parts. The fun for me is reverse engineering the broken parts or assemblies . Since I charge by the hour, most jobs are time and materials.
I don’t advertise making quantities to avoid the pitfall of undercutting my profit.


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## Chips O'Toole (Oct 17, 2022)

Seems like there is no such thing as a fix-it shop any more. I used to think it would be fun to open a place and offer simple repairs for people who can't machine, weld, do wiring, or work with wood. So many things get thrown out when a quick weld or a couple of new wires would put them back in business for decades.


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## markba633csi (Oct 17, 2022)

You're talking about a modern day jack of all trades- they are out there but few and far between. Very hard to make it worthwhile unless one specializes somewhat in a particular area


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## Chips O'Toole (Oct 17, 2022)

Well, it worked in Mayberry. Are you saying TV isn't realistic?


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## Braeden P (Oct 17, 2022)

Chips O'Toole said:


> Professional machining is full of rude people. Have you been to Practical Machinist? Unbelievable manners. All sorts of filthy insults flying around. When I go there, I behave as though I were dealing with mental patients.
> 
> I belong to a bunch of forums. I've learned people with certain interests are nicer than others. Bodybuilders, fishermen, and gun people tend to be astoundingly conceited and rude. Woodworkers are okay. DIY people are okay. I haven't had any problems on tractor websites. Electronics people can be trying, but that's the nature of the breed. I don't think they can help it.
> 
> ...


It all depends on the fisherman, bass fisherman are ruder than a trout fly fisherman, salt guys almost always hate on freshwater fish. For me it’s way easier to meet nice people in a fly shop compared to a tackle shop and there is way more tackle shops and spin fisherman than fly fisherman. Same goes for most things, there will be rude people and some nice people. When it comes to machining companies hardinge is a hit or miss, sent 3 emails about the paint on my lathe with no response after a week and then sent another and they finally got back to me after a week.


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 17, 2022)

Chips O'Toole said:


> Seems like there is no such thing as a fix-it shop any more. I used to think it would be fun to open a place and offer simple repairs for people who can't machine, weld, do wiring, or work with wood. So many things get thrown out when a quick weld or a couple of new wires would put them back in business for decades.



I remember way back in the 1980s in western Canada hick town of less than 40,000 people I had no trouble getting the only machine shop to turn a new spindle for my granddads monkey ward wood lathe. 

In Toronto in the present day it's an impossibility unless you advertise in craigslist or the equivalent for a home based amateur to do you a solid.


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## mmcmdl (Oct 17, 2022)

The day I set my lathes and mills back up are the day I'll be back in business . 2 of 3 things get you in the door for business . Price , quality and turn around . If you don't provide 2 out of the 3 , you're out of business . As far as making 0nesies / twoseies ? One's a prototype , two is a matched pair . 3 is production , send it out to a cnc shop .

My company will be keeping me busy long after I retire this March . 

Edit ..... I just returned from Toronto . I didn't see a place I would ever be able to afford to live , let alone start up a shop .


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## mmcmdl (Oct 17, 2022)

Chips O'Toole said:


> Professional machining is full of rude people.


I resemble that . Rude just because people don't understand I can't work 8 hrs. for a bag of tomatoes any longer . I become very nice and agreeable when someone wants and CAN/WILL pay a decent hourly rate . Not many hobbiest are willing to do just that .  They save money re-using wire ties and such .


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 17, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> The day I set my lathes and mills back up are the day I'll be back in business . 2 of 3 things get you in the door for business . Price , quality and turn around . If you don't provide 2 out of the 3 , you're out of business . As far as making 0nesies / twoseies ? One's a prototype , two is a matched pair . 3 is production , send it out to a cnc shop .
> 
> My company will be keeping me busy long after I retire this March .
> 
> Edit ..... I just returned from Toronto . I didn't see a place I would ever be able to afford to live , let alone start up a shop .


Oh yeah, housing in TO is unobtainium.

you can rent out storage lockers as mini shops... ours is too large to afford the rent on, so it's in brother's 400 ft2 two car garage and overflows into his basement and mine.

Back in the day I almost purchased a 2000 ft2 industrial condominium with a mezzanine converted to illegal apartment. It was for sale for under $200K CAD. Kicking myself now. But wife was worried that the mezzanine level violated zoning and the condo board making a fuss


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## westerner (Oct 17, 2022)

great white said:


> Small shops that will do that kind of work are a rarity these days and most are either out of business or on their way out…


This is me, and has been for quite some time. Thankfully, I am retired and no longer care about 'the business'


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## C-Bag (Oct 17, 2022)

i guess it just depends on the shop. My bottom line keeps growing just staying with my standard line. Custom work for me was a time sink that cost me more in time and headaches.

My slack time is better spent upgrading my production line which has increased efficiency and sped up production. Every time I’ve done that it has paid for itself. Building custom equipment I can put aside for later if there is an order instead of getting tangled in customer project works for me.


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 18, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> i guess it just depends on the shop. My bottom line keeps growing just staying with my standard line. Custom work for me was a time sink that cost me more in time and headaches.
> 
> My slack time is better spent upgrading my production line which has increased efficiency and sped up production. Every time I’ve done that it has paid for itself. Building custom equipment I can put aside for later if there is an order instead of getting tangled in customer project works for me.


The fallacy again... time does not cost you money, it's a billable item. The more time you have to bill the greater the profits. Just ask lawyers. It's why the bill down to the minute. If you're not billing for every minute you're producing product for a client you're doing it wrong. 

Why upgrade if it's not to be able to improve efficiency in order to bill more hours?  

The only excuse that holds up is when you have more work than the ability to perform it, and in that case you fail if you dont winnow out the customers that who make you the lowest profit margin, usually this is the semi-regular medium volume customer who demands pricing that should be reserved for steady high volume customers only.  There are so many potential low volume customers that are happy to pay high premiums just to be able to get a part it is fool hardy to ignore them entirely. At least toss out a very high price to assess profit potential. 

Fear keeps businesses bound to the clients they have and know. 

When I started HVAC design work my client roster was entirely low volume high demand heating contractors who needed jobs done asap, at the lowest price point. I worked full time and had two part time employees. I started gaining interest from architects and initially turned them away because I was too busy struggling to meet the demands of existing clients who were keeping me poor. My competition was a bunch of part timers who worked at HVAC contractors and who were happy to under cut my prices because they were getting paid cash under the table.

Had I not taken business courses, I'd have never learned and applied business cost analysis for various client models, and never have been able to grow into a vertically integrated company providing a broad spectrum of consulting and inspection services for high end clientele


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## projectnut (Oct 18, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> I resemble that . Rude just because people don't understand I can't work 8 hrs. for a bag of tomatoes any longer .* I become very nice and agreeable when someone wants and CAN/WILL pay a decent hourly rate . Not many hobbiest are willing to do just that .*  They save money re-using wire ties and such .



Unfortunately, that's all too common today.  Most hobbyists I've dealt with are as cheap as they come.  As a result, I no longer do anything other than my own projects or occasionally help a friend who runs a commercial shop.  I've seen "customers" come in with a job that would take a minimum of 4 hours to do correctly and start the conversation with "I've got this 10-minute job I'd like you to look at".  Not only that they show up unannounced and think you should drop everything to start on their job immediately.

The other side of the coin is when the job is done, they want to pay you next week.  Sometimes the week stretches into a month or more, and as the time goes on their memory starts to diminish.  They can't remember the agreed upon price or come up with something that's a small fraction of what they were quoted.  

These are some of the main reasons commercial shops aren't in a hurry to do business with hobbyists.  Commercial customers have established lines of credit, by in large don't negotiate prices, and pay on time.  You can only get burned so many times before you learn not to stick your fingers in the fire.


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## Bi11Hudson (Oct 18, 2022)

This post could generate political content very easily. Both my own, and responses. . . For this I apologize. I am doing my best to avoid any political statement, but such will be an inherent part of what I want to say.

In older days, my father's days,(*pre* WW2) a local fix-it shop was a common sight. And marginaly profitable. Not a lot but a man that was mechanicly inclined and liked to tinker could "tickle his fancy" and get paid for it. There wasn't enough profit margin to meet today's living standards but in Pop's day, living "standards" weren't so expensive. People walked instead of rode, there was no TV or video, many modern appliances or devices are just that, *modern*.

Then there was the manufacturing base, every thing was made *fairly* locally. There was no "off shore" manufacturing, no "Chinese" cheaply made replacement. No plastic this, or pot metal that. Well, there were but mostly for toys. Appliances were repairable, and parts could be acquired. It may be that junk pile of acquired broken devices that provided replacement parts, today folks are culturlly steered away from keeping those "junk piles". Intentionally?, I don't know.

Many (most?) modern appliances are made, engineered from the ground up, to be disposable. You don't fix anything, you run down to the store and buy a new replacement from China. Or VietNam, or India, or whereever. The old one is meant to fail relatively quickly so there would be a replacement market for developing nations that would buy their product.

With the present animosity with mainland China, the source of most of today's cheap appliances, this disposable society is coming to a very abrupt end. "Things" will still be disposable for a long time, engineers have forgotten how to build repairable "things". But to a true tinkerer, even unrepairable items can be repaired. The end result is usually not very *pretty*, but the device will work. The question is whether the tinkerers of the world will still be around to repair those "disposable" things. Or will they too have become disposable.

I happen to enjoy rebuilding the old, *repairable*, models I have acquired. And/or "scratch building" something that is not available or replacement parts for something broken. By most modeling "standards", I and my kind am considered to be anomolous, old buzzards that still use the old methods where nothing is "scrap", literally anything can be repurposed. I do trains, called "Model Railroading", there are others that do model airplanes, or model ships, or old (12":1') cars and trucks, or people that do machine work as a hobby.

Those are the people that will become the modern equivilent of the "local fix-it man" of the future. Those that are still alive. . . Their time will become a sellable product, and it will seem expensive to the rest of the world. But as things degenerate, they will find that the price is really necessary if they want to maintain their "standard of living".

.


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 18, 2022)

Bi11Hudson said:


> This post could generate political content very easily. Both my own, and responses. . . For this I apologize. I am doing my best to avoid any political statement, but such will be an inherent part of what I want to say.
> 
> In older days, my father's days,(*pre* WW2) a local fix-it shop was a common sight. And marginaly profitable. Not a lot but a man that was mechanicly inclined and liked to tinker could "tickle his fancy" and get paid for it. There wasn't enough profit margin to meet today's living standards but in Pop's day, living "standards" weren't so expensive. People walked instead of rode, there was no TV or video, many modern appliances or devices are just that, *modern*.
> 
> ...


I will concur that the corporate psychopathy that lead to the disposable economy where nothing is able to be fixed has lead to the demise of the local trades that used to fix all sorts of things.

This failing in large cities at least has led to maker spaces and technical people having nights where anyone can bring in anything to see if it can be fixed for free.

BUT I did want to get back to my original premise. It was not about jack of all trade shops. It was about the inability to get responses from specialists whose entire business model is to be the outsource supplier of some essential service.

I also NEVER say to a potential supplier :Hey dudes, I'm a hobby machinist and I need x, y or z from you" 

I always start every new contact with a supplier as if I am a trade seeking to sub out a service like heat treating. I always make a specific request for quotation just as if I expected from my potential clients. I always research as much as possible first to confirm that the company provides the services I'm requesting so as to avoid wasting their time responding to potential customer that they can't service. 

IMO so many companies have become so risk adverse that they have doomed their futures. They're the modern day carriage makers. 

I should not have to seek services from companies 200 kms away or worse, in another country, but I do far too frequently.


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## Reddinr (Oct 18, 2022)

> that junk pile of acquired broken devices



I was raised in Maine.  "The pile" was and is still part of the culture there I think.  Over the years my pile has gotten smaller and is hidden away because I'm married and can compromise.  Just don't try to walk around the attic of my shop.

On topic though:  I understand a business turning down some work, but not answering an email is just plain bad manners.  It takes just seconds to write a couple of lines.


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## Aaron_W (Oct 18, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> BUT I did want to get back to my original premise. It was not about jack of all trade shops. It was about the inability to get responses from specialists whose entire business model is to be the outsource supplier of some essential service.



I think a lot of this comes down to burn out from but I can buy one for $5 syndrome when they are quoted $65 for a project. You see this everywhere.

I had a friend who was a professionally trained Gardner. He would quote a landscaping project for doing it right, and would often be countered with but I can pay a couple of guys out front of Home Depot to it for $100. They expected him to price match a couple of random laborers working under the table. They didn't understand that going cheap would result in dead trees or a stone walkway coming apart after the first winter.

You see the same on woodworking forums from people that make high end custom furniture. But I can buy a table at Ikea for 10% of your price. So go buy it at Ikea.

People get burned out on this stuff and some will just focus on the bigger clients who understand the worth of what they are buying.

Maybe you do understand this and would pay the prices required, but you are probably 1 in 50, so they don't even bother thinking it a waste of time.


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 18, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> Maybe you do understand this and would pay the prices required, but you are probably 1 in 50, so they don't even bother thinking it a waste of time.



I know of at least 100 companies in North America that make the finest quality goods, stuff they charge a premium for.

What separates those companies from all the others? Because frankly, if there is a will every company could choose to be the best at something and charge premium prices and be sought after.

Two things.

They did not assume, they take the time to ascertain if each potential client was a good fit for their company. Most businesses primary first point of contact is via email rather than a showroom. Online clients don't roll up in a Mercedes so that you can make certain immediate judgements about how much they have to spend.

Secondly, those companies dont get burned out, because they understand their business and what mix of clients they need to be successful without scrambling and scrounging.

example, Goebel Furniture sells custom heirlooom quality furniture, often custom designed for their clients. They have an online presence that sets expectations and gives potential clients an idea of what to expect. So, when they get an introductory email from someone interested in a custom barolo table do you think they ignore it and say nah, this fellow really wants ikea.

Do you think Wisconsin Metal Parts Inc gets many emails from pop down the road asking if they'll custom stamp 5 parts for him after he visited their website where the first thing he learned is that WMP is an ISO certified medium to high volume production stamping facility.

Anyway, I'll end this rant. I can't force people to become better business people.

What I really want to see are a few "bespoke" businesses in the metal working industry... then I'd know right where to go.


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## RJSakowski (Oct 18, 2022)

I spent seven of my last ten working years in a startup company.  We were developing a product which eventually was purchased by large pharma and biotech companies.  

From a customer point of view, my approach to having job shops do work for us was to provide an RFQ which stated precisely  the work to be done and the quantity requested stating that these parts were for prototype evaluation.  I also stated what estimated annual  production requirements were if/when the prototype went into production.  Note that these were honest estimates to the best of our knowledge.  This was usually sufficient to get a bid from the supplier.

From the supplier poiunt of view, I worked that side too.  In my experience the small customer was far better at paying on time than the larger customers.  One tactic that I used was to require a down payment sufficient to cover cost of materials, overhead, and possibly something for time.  For customers that were reliable, balance was net 10 days.  For new customers or those with a history of late payment, it was cash on delivery.  If the product was shipped, it was sent C.O.D.  When the customer would ba;lk at the terms, my reply was, "I'm not a bank; if you want credit, go to the bank, not me".


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## C-Bag (Oct 18, 2022)

I guess I should have prefaced my reply with yup, I’ve run into being ignored a LOT. And just about 90% of all big businesses I have to deal with do everything in their power to keep themselves firewalled from everybody. From stupid phone trees to websites that only give you a FAQ that doesn’t apply to email links I can feel my email falling into the black hole round file. It has made me very phobic about dealing with them and I look till I find a responsible, responsive co.


TorontoBuilder said:


> The fallacy again... time does not cost you money, it's a billable item. The more time you have to bill the greater the profits. Just ask lawyers. It's why the bill down to the minute. If you're not billing for every minute you're producing product for a client you're doing it wrong.


So every estimate you do you charge for that even when they don’t go for it? Must be nice. My customers are the opposite end of the economic spectrum. They are acoustic musicians, not deep pocket corp’s. So they make a hobby machinist look like millionaire in comparison. But they are reliable and I know them and their plight well as I am one. And while many are lawyers and doctors etc, the vast majority are not.


TorontoBuilder said:


> Why upgrade if it's not to be able to improve efficiency in order to bill more hours?


Because I want to keep ahead of inflation and cut my labor so I don’t have to spend as much time making them. Less of my labor means I‘d not raised my prices for 12yrs. Not until this last year and then it was a modest $5. Billable hours, what a concept.


TorontoBuilder said:


> The only excuse that holds up is when you have more work than the ability to perform it, and in that case you fail if you dont winnow out the customers that who make you the lowest profit margin,


Funny, that’s what I did when I had to quit doing custom work. 


TorontoBuilder said:


> Had I not taken business courses, I'd have never learned and applied business cost analysis for various client models, and never have been able to grow into a vertically integrated company providing a broad spectrum of consulting and inspection services for high end clientele


Cool. We are obviously from completely different universes. Just the difference between Canada and the US is vast, and your focus and experience make it further so.

I’ve always just worked with my hands and have no interest in doing what has been done to me and guys like me in the name of business. Like being forced to go through a temp agency for over two years while the company paid the temp agency $5+hr more then I was getting just so they could lay off 40 guys 3 days before Christmas. That was standard practice for the 5yrs I was there. Like so many of the business class they were also convinced they could pick up guys off the street and they could do any job needed. Build machinery and pay them min wage while you had to supply your own tools. The factory was 20mi from nowhere so everybody drove at least 20mi a day.

Sorry for the boring sidetrack, but just wanted to show how different my experience is. And how I’m grateful to be able to make 3x’s what I used to make in literally 1/4 of the time. It’s all very lo tech and pitiably not as profitable as you, but crucial to my working retirement.


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## 7milesup (Oct 19, 2022)

Bi11Hudson said:


> engineers have forgotten how to build repairable "things".


That is a completely false statement.  Engineers work for companies.  Companies are all about profit to pay the shareholders their dividends.  They do this by directing engineers and manufacturing to cut costs to target a market audience (price point).  "Back in the day," products were designed with the knowledge and materials that were available.  Today we have significantly more materials available to integrate into the design process and analysis that can be done by computers vs. slide rule.  FEA (Finite Element Analysis) is part of our design process that would have taken an inordinate amount of time with a slide rule.
The blame for cheap products lies squarely with us, the consumer.  We want cheap, and we want to see our 401k grow.  Companies, and more importantly, Wall Street, have met the demands of the consumer.


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## Shotgun (Oct 19, 2022)

My experience backs up what @7milesup has to say.
I worked for 18mos at GE's Appliance Park in Louisville, KY.  It has now been sold to a Chinese firm, so I doubt anything has changed.  But, engineers would literally fight over how to save a penny per unit.  Being able to replace a bolt together component with a solid piece of molded plastic could save a screw. . . that's half a penny plus an assembly operation. . . somebody is looking at a bonus!!  Once the engineers were done testing and validating their product, it would go through a "cost out", where accountants would find cheaper suppliers for components.  GE was intensely aware that their cooktop would be sitting right next to the competitor's at the big box store, both would look nearly the same and have the same specs, and both would have huge price tag stickers. The customer choice would likely as not boil down to the one that cost a dollar less.
The woman only cares about whether the trim was black or brushed stainless, the man just wants the woman to be happy, and neither of them would know which end of the screwdriver to hold when the thing does break. So they pay for the extra warranty, so that a barely living wage technician can come swap out the Chinese made circuit board when it fries itself, or just go on the assumption that it will be cheaper to replace the whole unit.  They cost $300 or so new, and it's going to be over $100 just for the repairman to show up at your door to see what's wrong with it.  That cooktop is 5yrs old anyway, and isn't in style anymore, after all.
So GE has a conundrum.  Make the appliance reparable, necessarily making it more expensive, and not sell anything -OR- beat their competition in the race to the bottom.  The bonus for them in racing to the bottom is that they get to sell another unit.  No money in the repair market, after all.  Is the problem that the industry has been too good at making so-called durable goods cheap, or that the repairmen should accept a lower standard of living?  
Don't hate the player.  Hate the game.


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## Shotgun (Oct 19, 2022)

@TorontoBuilder, I note in an earlier post that you talked about working with architects to make custom components.  That seems like a B2B transaction.  You're talking to people that understand custom work and why it is so expensive.  Most people don't understand that, and most small business don't want to deal with explaining it to them.  That is called "sales" and requires a particular personality.  If you don't have that personality, you find sales to be extremely difficult, tiring, or even repulsive.  Many small business people just want to do what they do, so they're looking for a long term contract, and don't want to deal with one-off or even small batch work.


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## Jason812 (Oct 19, 2022)

Ulma Doctor said:


> I make part of my living doing onsies and twosies of obsolete parts. The fun for me is reverse engineering the broken parts or assemblies . Since I charge by the hour, most jobs are time and materials.
> I don’t advertise making quantities to avoid the pitfall of undercutting my profit.


I'm barely covering the costs of tools but this is a hobby.  I like fixing old farm equipment that is obsolete.  I just received the material to make 5 wheeled hay rake spindles for a rake that hasn't been in production for a decade.  If you price parts at a dealer, you can save your customer money and put money in your pocket without selling yourself short.

I understand bigger companies not quoting but not responding is uncool.  Whenever I have someone not return my call, my response is,  "I'm not going to beg you to take my money."

Another side gig I have is working on airboats with a buddy of mine.  We have learned you absolutely factor in time for running down parts, design and/or diagnostic.  We quit charging by the hour when quoting and just figure out the cost to do the job.  Sometimes we make more per hour sometimes less but it's easier than saying we charge X amount per hour.  When you do, guys who can't or won't turn a wrench think an 8 hour job should only be done in 3 hours or is just a quick and easy job without knowing all that goes into what they want done.  Or they think we pad hours.


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## tq60 (Oct 19, 2022)

Agree...

Build to price point.

We support public safety communications and have been doing this since 79.

Started at Motorola as company operations.

Every single part could be ordered, the washer you dropped to the scratched labels.

Fast forward to current day, one manufacturer of the Code 3 equipment changed the design of the control unit, still looks same on top, but the old unit had a stamped and formed metal bottom with metal supports for switches and boards, very well made and strong.

Current version has a plastic back with stand off for switch, the switch is a long lever with strong detents.

Plastic supports just bigger than the self threading screws so the screws add stress that a not perfect activation of switch causes plastic to break.

Manufacturer does not have and "parts", the whole control unit must be replaced as they source from someplace the unit but no parts.

Stupid!

And due to high use none available, wonder why?

We drill and tap what is left and add screws to make it work as we cannot have a fire engine out of service during fire season...

Sometimes it seems okay, why stock parts for a 5 dollar Wal-Mart item when you can replace unit for less than labor cost to repair, but creating things that need to be reliable and serviceable but not including a process to service them or at minimum stocking the part that breaks is stupid.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## TorontoBuilder (Oct 19, 2022)

Shotgun said:


> @TorontoBuilder, That seems like a B2B transaction.  You're talking to people that understand custom work and why it is so expensive.  Most people don't understand that, and most small business don't want to deal with explaining it to them.  That is called "sales" and requires a particular personality.  If you don't have that personality, you find sales to be extremely difficult, tiring, or even repulsive.  Many small business people just want to do what they do, so they're looking for a long term contract, and don't want to deal with one-off or even small batch work.



That is again the logical fallacy that small businesses fail to even understand because they don't reply to initial inquiries. Most long term contracts begin with an initial inquiry...  You can't determine if my business is B2B in nature if you refuse to communicate with me.

I'm not disputing your premise, I actually agree when it comes to many small shops, they're mostly run by skilled technical people who fail at business, so they struggle just to keep doing what they're doing because they tend to not like to work for others but to be their own boss despite lacking many of the skilled needed to make their lives somewhat easier. 

I tend to avoid contacting such places altogether and tend to miss them because they don't have the minimum web presence I require in order to reach out to a company seeking their services. 

Okay, I've aired my pet peeve and I dont think there is a way of solving this issue other than helping promote those businesses who help those like ourselves with special smaller volume technical needs at having them met. 

So shout out to H & W Machine repair, aka https://machinerypartsdepot.com/ for selling to anyone no matter how small we are


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## vecair (Oct 19, 2022)

I agree with you Toronto, it's the same down here.  I asked a local fabrication company to bid a 2k project and got no answer, even tho they ask for such jobs on their website.  This has happened several times now with various companies.  My other gripe is material costs, I just got a quote back for materials that exceeds the cost of the actual tool.  Just the materials!  Unless we are competitive we are doomed.


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## 7milesup (Oct 19, 2022)

vecair said:


> My other gripe is material costs, I just got a quote back for materials that exceeds the cost of the actual tool. Just the materials!


That is a worldwide problem, so you are not alone.


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## feral_cat (Oct 19, 2022)

Chips O'Toole said:


> Seems like there is no such thing as a fix-it shop any more. ....



I don' think so, or really rare if they still exist.  This is what we get for sending all our manufacturing abroad.  Any shops that are left have found some good customers to keep them alive, probably bigger customers.  I run a small shop, but really only make custom parts for a couple long time customers.  I made my neighbor (cabinet shop) a replacement part for his table saw.  It was a favor.. did not come close to making shop rate on it.  Another shop cross town quoted him 500 for a custom 5/8-12 nut (go eff yourself price, but honestly probably how they quote stuff to Lockheed).  Any shops left in this country do not survive on little guys who need an occasional bracket.


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## Chips O'Toole (Oct 19, 2022)

Regarding junk piles, I'll tell you about some local government hypocrisy.

I don't have garbage pickup. Here, we take our garbage to "recycling centers," which are places where there are several dumpsters. There is one for paper. There is one for metal. One for yard waste. Tires, appliances, and general garbage are represented, and there is a big open area for furniture.

Okay, now, remember this is the "Recycling Center." Note the first word.

At the recycling center, it is a crime to remove anything and take it with you. Nice furniture that could be refinished goes into a claw truck. I saw a nice Workmate the other day in the metal area. Gone. Two days ago, I saw a neat Craftsman steel toolbox with little drawers, in great shape. Gone. Nearby, there was a steel cabinet about 6 feet tall. Very well made. I guess it would cost $600 or more new. Gone.

The steel in the metal area would be wonderful to have for welding projects. Sorry. You can't have it.

As for the paper, people don't like to admit this, but the market for recycled paper is not good, so we often pay for special receptacles, dumpsters, and personnel to drive old paper to landfills.

Used tires? Obviously valuable. A lot of people don't have the money to pay $50 for a used tire, but they could grab one from the faux recycling center if they were allowed.

I bought a 5-gallon pail of blacktop, and it turned out I didn't need it. Expensive. I knew I would never get rid of it on Craigslist because people here are so cheap, so I took it to the recycling center. I'm getting ready to dump a $300 leaf rake there. No one will be allowed to touch it.

Think recycling is real? Question what you have been told. Some of it is real, but a lot isn't. Steel and aluminum, yes. Glass? No. Sand is too abundant.

As for engineers making bad products, I'm sorry, but accountants aren't to blame for everything. If they were, Germans wouldn't make such terrible, unreliable cars. I don't think accountants designed my friend's Mercedes so you can't get the battery out without removing the passenger seat or cutting up the carpet. Accountants didn't design my old Ford Thunderbird so rainwater collected on top of the ignition coils. Accountants didn't design the new green fuel spouts that literally require three hands.

I have a Bosch dishwasher. I also have a couple of Bosch angle grinders. The dishwasher costs somewhere around 10 times as much as an angle grinder. The angle grinders have thick cases made of fiberglass. They will be around for centuries unless someone melts them or something.

The dishwasher came with a control panel made from non-reinforced plastic about 2 mm thick. I am not kidding. The handle to open the door is part of it. This is a high-stress part. The areas where the stress is greatest are full of right angles which become stress risers. Even a moron knows you radius things that endure a lot of tearing stress. And a radius in a mold is no more expensive than a right angle.

Several years ago, the handle started to rip. I removed the panel to look at it, and I saw how badly it was made. I got strong structural epoxy and filled up the area behind the rip, and I got several more years out of the panel. A short time ago, it ripped in three areas I had not reinforced, and it could not be fixed, so I bought a new one. Same design. Realistically, it had to cost less than $10 to make. Most places charge nearly $120 for it, and I was lucky to get it for $80.

Obviously, if Bosch can make a thick case with glass in it for a $70 angle grinder, they can make strong parts for an $800 dishwasher. And you can't tell me Bosch was so concerned about saving 50 cents on an $800 product, they forced the engineers to design a bad part. Engineers also designed their angle grinders.

I took the new part and reinforced it with epoxy BEFORE installing it. Now maybe the dishwasher will have to be retired because the mechanism dies from old age, not because one minor part was designed badly.

Engineers love blaming marketers and accountants, but they do a lot of really bad work. I could list examples all day, and I'm just one person. I would hate to get into the subject of collapsed bridges.

Maybe next we should talk about things that are unquestionably made hard to repair on purpose. The other day, I tried to fix a DeWalt battery charger, and I found it was held together not just with Torx fasteners, which is offensive enough, but with special tamper-resistant Torxes with little nipples in the sockets to push tools out. These are not cheaper to make than regular Torxes or Phillips screws, and they don't make assembly easier, so the intent is obvious.


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## Shotgun (Oct 19, 2022)

feral_cat said:


> Another shop cross town quoted him 500 for a custom 5/8-12 nut (go eff yourself price, but honestly probably how they quote stuff to Lockheed).  Any shops left in this country do not survive on little guys who need an occasional bracket.


I need to make a nut for my taper attachement.  Really weird size. 7/16x14 (I think)
I've been wondering how I could cut internal threads on such a beast, 'cause the hole is smaller than my internal threading bar.
I'd say $500 is probably what it would cost them to make such a one-off.


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## Chips O'Toole (Oct 19, 2022)

How about making and hardening a tap?


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## jaek (Oct 19, 2022)

Shotgun said:


> I need to make a nut for my taper attachement.  Really weird size. 7/16x14 (I think)
> I've been wondering how I could cut internal threads on such a beast, 'cause the hole is smaller than my internal threading bar.
> I'd say $500 is probably what it would cost them to make such a one-off.


7/16-14 is standard UNC. You can probably get a tap at a decent hardware store, or Amazon is offering to deliver one to me tomorrow for less than 10 bucks.


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## mmcmdl (Oct 19, 2022)

WE all need to become salesmen , engineers , machinists , mechanics , toolmakers and technicians . We'll have all angles covered .  

Don't complain about it , take advantage of it .


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## 7milesup (Oct 19, 2022)

Chips O'Toole said:


> The other day, I tried to fix a DeWalt battery charger, and I found it was held together not just with Torx fasteners, which is offensive enough, but with special tamper-resistant Torxes with little nipples in the sockets to push tools out. These are not cheaper to make than regular Torxes or Phillips screws, and they don't make assembly easier, so the intent is obvious.


Torx fasteners are awesome.  Yes, the security Torx can frustrate a person that doesn't have the proper bit handy, but "security bits" are available everywhere, even Harbor Freight has them.  The intent is to keep the consumer out of the battery charger because, most likely, there is nothing in there that the average consumer can fix.  It has nothing to do with cost.


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## Chips O'Toole (Oct 20, 2022)

So you agree with me, except for your enthusiasm for Torx fasteners.

I don't agree that Torxes are awesome. I probably have 200 items in my house that are held together with Phillips screws, and they work just as well without requiring anyone to buy special tools.

The biggest problem with the super-nanny extra-nipple Torxes is that they may force you to buy sets of super-nanny tools. I have every tamper-proof bit known to mankind, but bits are thick. They won't go into every hole a nanny Torx occupies, so you have to get a dedicated tool with a thin shaft.

I have an Echo saw full of Torx screws. There are some a bit can just barely get to. There is no reason for using them. Hex screws would work fine. Unfortunately, Echo uses weird threads, so you can't just go to Ebay and buy hex screws to replace everything.

It's really amazing how many weird fastener tools I own. I also have every conceivable tool to open a tablet or phone. The police should have me on a list. And virtually none of the fasteners I can remove actually need to be exotic.


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## wayback machine (Oct 20, 2022)

From my understanding, Torx drive fasteners are easier for robots to assemble - But that's a whole other subject.........


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## feral_cat (Oct 20, 2022)

Shotgun said:


> I need to make a nut for my taper attachement.  Really weird size. 7/16x14 (I think)
> I've been wondering how I could cut internal threads on such a beast, 'cause the hole is smaller than my internal threading bar.
> I'd say $500 is probably what it would cost them to make such a one-off.


I made it with a single point thread mill on a CNC.  So, a helical toolpath.  Easy, but sometimes you have to iterate to get the threads right.


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## feral_cat (Oct 20, 2022)

wayback machine said:


> From my understanding, Torx drive fasteners are easier for robots to assemble - But that's a whole other subject.........


More torque.  Don't cam out like phillips.  Fairly easy to engage (6 angles). Hex keys can round over when over torqued and ruin the bit and every fastener it sees after that..  I love the old #2 phillips for everyday use because it will stay on the end of the bit.  Pretty much everything else it one hand on the fastener, one on the drill, so two hands for everything.


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## 7milesup (Oct 20, 2022)

Chips O'Toole said:


> none of the fasteners I can remove actually need to be exotic.


None of those fasteners are exotic, just not a Phillips standard that you may be used to.  
I have thrown out nearly every Phillps screw I had in my shop.  I haven't used them in years.  The one that stumped me a few years ago was a double hex screw, but once I figured that out it was no big deal.


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## RJSakowski (Oct 20, 2022)

Chips O'Toole said:


> Regarding junk piles, I'll tell you about some local government hypocrisy.
> 
> I don't have garbage pickup. Here, we take our garbage to "recycling centers," which are places where there are several dumpsters. There is one for paper. There is one for metal. One for yard waste. Tires, appliances, and general garbage are represented, and there is a big open area for furniture.
> 
> ...


I had a lot of old glass jars that I wanted rid of.  I did some research on line regarding the economics of recycling glass.  I was concerned with the environmental impact of the process, given that glass has to be transported to a facility that can actually use it.  It turns out the those facilities will only use clean unbroken glass and that perhaps 95% of recycled glass ends up in a landfill.  Sorted through and separated out the usable canning jars which went to a neighbor.  She will take what she doesn't want to a local food pantry where they are cleaned and donated to their customers.  120 jars that would have contributed to filling a landfill have a new life.  

Part of the problem is that trash isn't properly cleaned and sorted by the public.  What could be of some use as a reused, repurposed, or recycled item ends up getting mixed with the rest of the trash.  We separate all our trash,  Type 1, 2, 5 plastics along with plastic carrier bags, are essentially hydrocarbons and burn likr candle wax.  We burn them along with wood for winter heating.  Metals get separated as to type.  Steel, cast iron, and aluminum go to the local high school which sells them for recycling to support the athletics programs.  Cardboard and paper end up heating the house.  Compostables end up on the compost pole and eventually in the vegetable garden.  Appliances are scrapped out for usable material with the rest being separated as to material and recycled.


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## Bi11Hudson (Oct 20, 2022)

Chips O'Toole said:


> So you agree with me, except for your enthusiasm for Torx fasteners.
> 
> I don't agree that Torxes are awesome. I probably have 200 items in my house that are held together with Phillips screws, and they work just as well without requiring anyone to buy special tools.
> 
> ...


This thread seems to have stirred up several emotions. I love it. . . One of the reasons I do machine work is to make/modify tooling to fit *my* needs. The Torx bits *are* machine friendly, and as an electrician/electronics repairman agree there are places where the average consumer shouldn't go. They will often do more even more damage by trying to "jerry-rig" something to get it to work again.

Consumers aside, I use very small fasteners quite often. Has anyone priced an 0.035 spintight (nut driver)? I can tell you they don't come cheap, if you can even find one these days. I make mine in those sizes with a socket head screw by fitting a handle and turning down the screw head. If I need a deep reach, I drill and tap the end of a rod. I buy brass brazing rod in large packages for the purposes of making stuff. And have a good supply of steel rod. Hex (Allen) drivers the same way. A cheap set of Allen wrenches with the offset head cut off and a piece of steel rod makes a deep reach socket driver.

Torx particularly, but many other drivers get modified by turning down the hex shape and drilling/tapping the drive end for an extension rod. Depending on size or frequency of need, I may make a handle or just fold over the other end of the rod in a loop. Such tools may well not last very long. So what? I made it once, so just make it again. I have dozens of "specialty" tools that have been made this way. It's a large part of what got me into doing lathe work. The tools aren't very pretty, and often don't last long. But they work this one time, if they don't hold up to a second or third use, I'll make another. 

I'm not recommeding this approach for a working shop, but for the casual user it's a definate headache solution. Horrible Fright tools, as a rule, are cheap and usually less strong material. They can be drilled and cut down to fit an application where US made tools are not so easy. A "security torx" driver is easy. Just drill a shallow hole in the business end. 

Buying those cheap hex bits, 3 or 4 packages at a time, leaves me with working stock just sitting on a shelf. And reusing. . . Any good framing carpenter knows how fast screwdriver tips wear out. Instead of chucking them out, save to make something else out of. Yes, it takes a long time, but that's what retirement is for. Those long projects. . . And when was the last time you used your dividing head? Having a small machine shop at my disposal is much more than just making model steam engines or fixing my tractor. It's about doing what I do at *my* convenience, not a search engine or shipping ststem.

.


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## C-Bag (Oct 20, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> WE all need to become salesmen , engineers , machinists , mechanics , toolmakers and technicians . We'll have all angles covered .
> 
> Don't complain about it , take advantage of it .


It is funny this thread did make me rethink about cancelling all custom work. I decided to charge what it would really take to do a high end archtop guitar this guy has with a crazy carved back and throw out a number that was 4x what I used to charge when it was totally un worth it.

 But one of the considerations was all custom work is remote, like 1,000mi or more. So the owner has to do a tracing of the instrument and it has to be accurate. But in this case it not only needs to make the outline of the body, it also has to accurately map the back heights. Turns out there is a trick metal car body guys use called Flexible Shape Pattern. A kind of lo tech way to absolutely give you the shape. So that was the second hurdle after giving him the price. I sent him this vid and he said he would do it. Even ordering the special tape to do it with and making the accompanying station gauges. Once that is sent and I can totally see what I’m up against I’ll either take the job for the price or say it’s beyond me. I radical rethink of just no.

So the OP did have a possible positive effect on my process.


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## Bi11Hudson (Oct 20, 2022)

7milesup said:


> None of those fasteners are exotic, just not a Phillips standard that you may be used to.
> I have thrown out nearly every Phillps screw I had in my shop.  I haven't used them in years.  The one that stumped me a few years ago was a double hex screw, but once I figured that out it was no big deal.


We haven't discussed "spline drive" fasteners yet. If I run across a cheap buy of small screws I can use, even if they are spline drive, I'll grab 'em. I have a set of spline drivers from waayyy back when I traveled for Wang Computers as a field engineer. They're still OEM length, not ground down. But not thrown out in a housekeeping spree. Just sitting in my Jenson case for 40 odd years, waiting for some obsolete fasteners to show up on eBay.

.


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## Chips O'Toole (Oct 20, 2022)

7milesup said:


> None of those fasteners are exotic, just not a Phillips standard that you may be used to.
> I have thrown out nearly every Phillps screw I had in my shop.  I haven't used them in years.  The one that stumped me a few years ago was a double hex screw, but once I figured that out it was no big deal.



Any fastener an average consumer is unfamiliar with is exotic.


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## projectnut (Oct 20, 2022)

Many of the "exotic" fasteners are designed for ease of assembly and ease of maintenance providing you have the tools and knowledge to do the job.  Torx fasteners have been around at least since the early 1980's.  GM used them on many applications for light trucks and cars.  The "security" style was primarily used for electronic components that had no field serviceable components.

Cost of assembly is another reason they are used.  Regardless of whether assembly is done manually or by robots the part has to be picked up and oriented properly for assembly.  There's quite a science to determining the type and profile of fasteners needed in a complex assembly for ease and speed of assembly.

While working as a design engineer I was required to take a course on "Design for Assembly" at the UW Madison.  Not only was the course interesting it opened your eyes as to the differences in time and effort it took to produce a well-designed assembly as opposed to producing one without taking fastener types and profiles into consideration.

The gist of the course was the greater number of ways a fastener could be gripped, transported, and installed the less time and effort it would take to install it.  In a high production environment, we're talking about seconds or even milliseconds per fastener that could potentially mean the difference between profit and loss on each assembly.

As an example, a ball is about the easiest profile to install in any assembly.  It can be gripped at any orientation, transported in countless numbers of ways, and installed without regard to orientation.  As you move into fasteners things become more complicated.  A slot head screw for instance needs to be gripped and transported with the threaded end toward the opening, placed in the hole vertically and fastened with a tool that will only fit in the slot one of two ways.

A Phipps's head screw presents many of the same limitations except for the fact that the assembly tool can be inserted in the head four different ways.  Both the straight slot and Phillips screws require down pressure on the fastener to keep the tool properly oriented in the slot.

The Torx head fastener also has some limitations but is more easily transported and properly oriented to the hole in that it can fit the assembly tool in 6 different positions.  In addition, it requires less down pressure due to the fact that the tool and fastener are being guided by 6 contact points.

While this is a vast simplification of why different style and profile fasteners are used it is an attempt to explain that by in large fastener choice isn't merely a guess as to what might work, or what the manufacturer could get the cheapest.


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## 7milesup (Oct 20, 2022)

^^^^ This! ^^^^


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## Chips O'Toole (Oct 20, 2022)

The thing to keep sight of is that Phillips screws work perfectly well and do not make assembly particularly expensive. If this were not true, my house would not be jam-packed with recently-manufactured cost-competitive products made with Phillips screws. Using super-nanny Torx fasteners with internal  nipples doesn't do the manufacturer much good, and it causes a lot of inconvenience for consumers. Very few people will invest in a collection of special tools like mine.

It really looks like the intent is to discourage repair and encourage filling our landfills with junk, while putting up ridiculous websites full of lies about green aspirations.

The hypocrisy of manufacturers is egregious and pervasive. Another example: a few years back, cell makers made phones harder to fix by gluing them shut. They made claims about water resistance, making the new problem sound like a feature. Meanwhile, it has become impossible to find OEM batteries for some phones. So they did two things which, coincidentally, I'm sure, made it hard to get decent life out of $800 phones. 

Verizon bombards me with trade-in offers all the time. If they're so green, why don't they and Samsung want me to replace my battery and keep my phone?

And who needs a waterproof phone? It's not that hard to keep a phone dry. And the waterproofing isn't much good anyway, at least for my phone. Unless the water is under a yard deep, it's done for.


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## Bi11Hudson (Oct 20, 2022)

Making specialty tools is part of what machine work is about. As far as manufacturers cutting corners with odd fasteners.
Amen
.


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