# Lead screw question.



## Exuptoy (Mar 13, 2020)

After recently purchasing my 10F TV36 I’m not really au fait with what should or shouldn’t happen when in use.

I’ve noticed even without the drive selected on the left hand lever, my lead screw is still turning and sometimes moving the carriage if it’s locked with the half nuts. I’m thinking it may be due to the banjo/gear meshing? What’s wrong with my set up? I’m sure it didn’t do this when it was collected and after removing a few of the gears I never set the mesh with paper. Could this be my problem?


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## brino (Mar 13, 2020)

My advice:

1) Pick a version of the Atlas "Manual of Machine Operation" (aka "MoLO") and/or Southbend "How to Run a Lathe" and get to know them intimately.
There are several version in our downloads section.
Southbend, How to Run a Lathe
Atlas, Manual of Machine Operation (MOLO)

2) With the manual go over your machine carefully to understand _ALL_ the knobs and levers. It's also a great time to become familiar with all lubrication points.

3) Start small and slow. With my 1916 Cincinnati Mill I had NO manuals. Once cleaned-up, I started learning it without the motor by turning the flywheel by hand. That let me engage spindle and feeds without any worry of "crashes". Once I knew how to disengage everything and it was all lubed I carefully tried it with the motor. Things like how to switch between the built-in X/Y/Z power feed were NOT initially obvious.

Be careful and have fun!

-brino


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## brino (Mar 13, 2020)

Is it possible that while you were exploring the gearing that it didn't quite get put back together properly?
Is it perhaps in the reverse position not off position?

On my 1937 9-inch Southbend, the power-feed level has three positions; forward reverse and centre-off.
(see manual page below)

-brino


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## T Bredehoft (Mar 13, 2020)

Exuptoy said:


> sometimes moving the carriage if it’s locked with the half nuts.



Its normal for the lead screw to be turning all the time. If the half nuts are closed, the carriage will move.  Yes, the lead screw may be put in neutral, but most of us don't   do that. We just let it turn so when we want it it will be there.


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## pontiac428 (Mar 13, 2020)

If your carriage moves with the half nuts disengaged, it might be worth your time to remove the skirt and clean/inspect the half nut assembly.  Also, if your carriage is creeping on a disengaged half nut, your gibs might be a little on the loose side in addition to whatever is causing the lead screw to drag.
Edit:  Also check your reversing gear assembly.  Something may be loose/dirty in there.


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## wa5cab (Mar 13, 2020)

First off, the Atlas 9" and all of the 10" except the QC and Pic-O-Matic have a FWD-OFF-REV gearbox on the front of the bed below the head stock.  And do not have a tumbler.  So studying the left end drawing of the South Bend lathe above will only confuse the issue.  And most people probably disengage the gear box when the lead screw is not being used.  But I guess that's just personal preference.  However, if your lead screw continues to turn with the gearbox in OFF, and especially if the carriage moves when you engage the half-nuts, the problem is in the gearbox.  Something is dragging or the drive dogs are not disengaging,


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## Exuptoy (Mar 13, 2020)

Cheers Robert. I’ll look into it. Even without the half nuts engaged and the Fwd-Rev in neutral it’s turning. If I lock the carriage with it in N it still tries to drive and there is a noticeable change in sound like it’s under load. Once my bench is finished and the lathe is in position I’ll start looking at it.
Thanks for the other info guys.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 13, 2020)

Whilst I’m at it I think I’ll set up the gears for metric threading (1.5mm pitch) as I probably will never use it for imperial. 
I notice from the threading chart that the spindle stud gear needs to be 16 tooth. 
I have a number of spare 16/32 compound gears, is this 16t stud gear the same gear? I assume it’s the 32/16 compound thats the under the gear at the end of the spindle which starts the gear train down the end to the lead screw? Do I turn the compound gear around or just use the 16t to drive gear A? 

Sorry for the basic questions? This really is new to me.


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## wa5cab (Mar 13, 2020)

If you spend some time studying the threading chart, it would answer your question, but the 16T/32T compound spindle stud gear always goes on the machine the same way, with the 32T gear closest to the headstock.  The 32T spindle gear is so wide for historical reasons.  The Atlas 9 and the 10 through 10E did not have the stud gear.

But 0.5 mm pitch is going to give you a pretty rough looking finish if you always set up the lathe for threading it.  0.5 mm is almost 20 thousandths in real numbers.  It is more than twice the coarsest feed shown on the chart, which is 8.7 thou.  Which would generally only be used for roughing cuts.


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## timmeh (Mar 13, 2020)

Check fwd/rev gear box. Mine also turned the leadscrew when in neutral, not enough to drive the carriage. The gear box housing had been damaged in a crash. Will try to find the thread I posted the info to.
"Atlas 10F V42" is thread title, bottom of first page.
Pics not very clear, can take more. Need more info? By all means, ask.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 14, 2020)

Cheers @wa5cab that makes sense. Now I sort of have my head around the gear selection process I’ll set it up for turning but maybe I’ll keep the gears for threading marked up somehow and set it up for slow feed turning. Makes perfect sense now you mention it!

@timmeh funny you should mention this as I was up the garage till gone midnight last night, initially to try and change out the gears then I got a little annoyed with the minor amount of backlash in the saddle so took the saddle off for inspection and when I removed the lead screw I noticed the gearbox had an issue. There is a hairline crack along the top alongside the banjo but it is still in serviceable condition, however, I found the yoke which selects forward /reverse doesn’t hold the transfer gear in the central position. I found one of the little fingers which push the transfer gear was missing! 
I made one up from a piece of 3mm wall steel box section with a 3mm pin.

You can see in the straight up (N) position that the yoke doesn’t hold the transfer gear perfectly central. 







This item was missing its pair! 







I have made and fitted the finger follower but have not yet reassembled things. If it cures my ills I’ll post a full thread explaining the repair for others if required.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 15, 2020)

Well, the repair made no difference but since changing gears to 32tpi gearing it’s certainly running sweeter and slower. Need to make a spacer for the lead screw stub shaft as the one behind the screw gear is marked 24 and is too large for me to run 64 of the screw and a compound 20/64 above it to get it REAL slow.  Anyone know its actual size?
Also I found some contact details of a lovely guy by the name of Michael Kurn who has agreed to send me the actual parts to repair my reversing box.
I’m amazed no-one spotted that my sliding gear yoke is home made from my previous pics unless mine is an earlier version.

Anyone spot the difference? 

maybe @wa5cab may be able to use the drawing behind the part for the drawing repository in here? It could easily be redrawn.


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## wa5cab (Mar 15, 2020)

Drawings are always welcome.

We do not have the drawing for the 9-116A spacer because last time that I checked, it was still available from Clausing.  But if you look at your 9-101-20A 20T gear and visualize it with all of it's teeth cut off, you would be pretty close.  As I mentioned a day or three ago, anyone with any gears that are scrap because of broken or worn-out teeth should not throw them away as the 9-116A is often among the MIA's when someone buys one of these lathes.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 15, 2020)

I have quite a few 20’s and could use one but I think I’ll just turn one and get my mate to spark erode the keyway. The 24 does indeed look like the 24 without its teeth but as it didn’t look like Zamak I dismissed it.


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## wa5cab (Mar 15, 2020)

OK.  I don't know whether 9-116A is cast or machined.  I had always assumed that it was cast.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 15, 2020)

By the way you mentioned the other day that in back gear the torque should have been greater......

it was my fault, I assumed that backgear was just removing the bull gear pin, until I removed the upper cast covers I found the free wheeling gears with the lever in the end!! It does indeed have plenty of torque! Where’s the embarrassed icon


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## wa5cab (Mar 15, 2020)

I always use the  or the


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## wa5cab (Mar 15, 2020)

One other thing:

If you engage the back gears without pulling out the direct drive pin, you lock up the spindle.  The MOLO says to do this for routine chuck removal.  Just don't forget and leave the spindle locked afterwards and start the motor.  However, I would NOT use this method to lock the spindle if you are trying to remove a stuck chuck.  For example on a new to you machine that may not have had the chuck removed for eons.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 15, 2020)

I’ve had the chuck off this since purchasing. Changed it for the Burnerd 4 jaw, clocked a Kawasaki rear hub and dressed the faces. First time ever so was pretty pleased with myself.


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## wa5cab (Mar 15, 2020)

OK.  Sounds as though you've already gotten some useful work out of it.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 15, 2020)

Yeah, I need to make some spacers up next to fit the Z650 wheels to the ER-5. Pretty much the reason I got it.


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## timmeh (Mar 16, 2020)

My gearbox had the same crack, left hand side, running from the "inside" corner of the g/box where it mates up to the bed(top face) to approx. halfway to the front. That led me to check alignment of the journals at either end. Couldn't see any bend/misalignment until I tried the input shaft in the full journal backwards, around 3mm/.120" off centre at the half journal. Prior to repair, very difficult to switch from one direction to other. Now, smooth as silk. A fairly agricultural repair to say the least, only measured by a rule, maybe got it under .5mm/.020".
Made a huge improvement to operation.


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## timmeh (Mar 16, 2020)

Exuptoy said:


> I have quite a few 20’s and could use one but I think I’ll just turn one and get my mate to spark erode the keyway. The 24 does indeed look like the 24 without its teeth but as it didn’t look like Zamak I dismissed it.


You could file the keyway, it only needs clearance. Only critical dimension for the spacer is length and if it's on the leadscrew input shaft, only one keyway required.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 16, 2020)

timmeh said:


> You could file the keyway, it only needs clearance. Only critical dimension for the spacer is length and if it's on the leadscrew input shaft, only one keyway required.


Not quite correct. The spacer circumference is critical too as there is no room to use a 20/64 in the final position at the 64t screw gear as the spacer behind it fouls on the rearmost 64 compound by a few mm. I need to either make a new spacer for the end of the Screw or turn down my 24 spacer to allow clearance. I’ll try and take a pic later.



timmeh said:


> Couldn't see any bend/misalignment until I tried the input shaft in the full journal backwards, around 3mm/.120" off centre at the half journal. Prior to repair, very difficult to switch from one direction to other. Now, smooth as silk. A fairly agricultural repair to say the least, only measured by a rule, maybe got it under .5mm/.020".
> Made a huge improvement to operation.



Very interesting @timmeh I’ll be sure to remove it when I replace my sliding collar yoke and check it for runout. I take it you are describing the LH side stub shaft which carries the screw (item 9-52A Stub below?)


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## timmeh (Mar 16, 2020)

Exuptoy said:


> Not quite correct. The spacer circumference is critical too as there is no room to use a 20/64 in the final position at the 64t screw gear as the spacer behind it fouls on the rearmost 64 compound by a few mm. I need to either make a new spacer for the end of the Screw or turn down my 24 spacer to allow clearance. I’ll try and take a pic later.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, insert backwards, eyeball from r/h end.
I'll measure the spacer, as long as it is small enough on the OD to clear the adjacent gear is all that matters, not necessary to be within .001".


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## Exuptoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Spinning it in the chuck to find the throw then using a press to ‘tweak’ any run out would be as effective Id suggest?


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## wa5cab (Mar 16, 2020)

I'll add that there is a 1/4" x 7/8" roll pin holding the gear 9-48B to the stub 9-52A that was missing from the exploded view drawing in all versions of the 10F parts list.  The version in Downloads has it added.  Look for:
*Atlas Lathe 10F-Series Parts 10L-6 Rev11.pdf                                                                               2019-07-13*


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## Exuptoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Cheers Robert.
Just had an email from Clausing.....they have actually quoted for a number of items that they still carry in stock. The bull gear pin and detent items, saddle gears and shafts to get rid of the backlash along with sliding collar and yoke from the reversing gearbox, Not THAT cheap but reasonable and if you wanted to bring a tired lathe back to life not too bad.


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## wa5cab (Mar 16, 2020)

That's good news.  I had heard from someone that Clausing had reduced the prices on a lot of Atlas parts.  I just hope that they are not having a Fire Sale and that when current stock is sold, there will be no more.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Well, the two 9-102-12s gears in the saddle are £103 so no fire sale BUT the 9-102-24t gear in the saddle is only £18. As I say not cheap but reasonable. £200 to get mine back in VERY good condition.


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## timmeh (Mar 16, 2020)

Spacer- OD: 1 1/16" +0.000"
                                     -0.020"
                ID : 3/4" +0.010"
                                -0.000"
          Length: 1/2"+0.010"
                                 -0.010"
That's what I mean when I say dimensions aren't that critical, for example, my spacer is 0.520" long, haven't had any problems.
The gear box is by no means close alignment wise, but it is a LOT better than it was. Zamac is not very ductile, and low melt point. Easy on the heat, light on force. It took me nearly a week, to do mine. A bit here and a bit there. The half journal was bent nearly .125" from where it should have been, within .020" now.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Cheers @timmeh


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## timmeh (Mar 16, 2020)

Here's the set up you're looking at; 64t on the leadscrew, 20t/64t with the 64t adjacent to the spacer. Well worn zamac gears are meshed closer than they should be, 3d printed 64t has .012" clearance on the spacer.
If you get the bore of the spacer close(within .005), you could even go + .020" on the OD.
If you don't have a spacer at all, that will get you going. I would hesitate to try filing a double keyway spacer, doable but difficult.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 17, 2020)

Many thanks @timmeh


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## Exuptoy (Mar 17, 2020)

A bit of bad news, I finally removed the gearbox and aside from the hailine crack in the top left hand corner of the reversing gearbox (the inclination of the stub was indeed off, even noticeable by eye) the lower support for the right hand reverse gear has a cracked finger support. My only choice now is to get a reverse gearbox casting made. I could make a half moon support and bracket it from inside the casing as a stop gap but it’ll need repairing.

Does anyone have a dimensional drawing for this box so I can get one made?
I have contacted Clausing but am waiting for a reply. Obviously if they supply one I’ll post it in here.

Looking at the break there is evidence of discolouration on the break which I would assume happen some time ago. Irrespective of when it happened I am going to try and get one manufactured!

I was also surprised by the wear in the stub gear collar as the brass bearing doesn’t look too bad!


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## wa5cab (Mar 17, 2020)

That's strange, though.  The center of the 24T and 12T gears are the same.  And there would be roughly four times as much material in a 24T as in a 12T. ???


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## wa5cab (Mar 17, 2020)

On the gear case, we don't have any sort of drawing.  I would first call Clausing and see whether or not they still have it, and if so, price.  If they do, then buy it or don't.  If not, ask them for a copy of the drawing.  And send me a copy.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 17, 2020)

I may not need to go down that route Robert. I posted pics of my original spares on the welding forum I frequent when I purchased it, including a homemade gearbox......I was pointed back in their direction today......

can you spot it?? I didn’t!!!


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## Exuptoy (Mar 17, 2020)

@timmeh, could I ask you a favour? Any chance you can measure that collar OD and I’ll turn down my 24 to fit.


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## timmeh (Mar 17, 2020)

1 1/16" or 27mm.
Unless you have extra 24t gears or that one is damaged,  as the "set" only has one.
If you make a spacer, the keyway doesn't have to be close, its not under load.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 18, 2020)

timmeh said:


> 1 1/16" or 27mm.
> Unless you have extra 24t gears or that one is damaged,  as the "set" only has one.
> If you make a spacer, the keyway doesn't have to be close, its not under load.


The 24 I was referring to looks like a 24T which has had its teeth tuned off. I wouldn’t destroy an original gear but I’ll happily turn down my existing spacer.

Thank you by the way.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 18, 2020)

Removed my spare case, gears in good order, case is perfect. Stripped off the paint, gave it a first coat of direct to metal Rustoleum.


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## wa5cab (Mar 18, 2020)

Exuptoy,

(set up your signature)
I still don't have a drawing for the gear spacer but if you measure the diameter of a 20T gear at the root of the teeth and subtract about 0.020", that should work safely.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 18, 2020)

@wa5cab Had a reply from Clausing, they list the reverse gearbox casting with bearing at £148 so would not supply a drawing. Thankfully I don’t need one any longer.


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## timmeh (Mar 18, 2020)

Exuptoy said:


> Removed my spare case, gears in good order, case is perfect. Stripped off the paint, gave it a first coat of direct to metal Rustoleum.
> 
> View attachment 317251
> View attachment 317252
> ...


There ya go, and looks like you've got an oddball quick change gearbox to boot(pic in post 38). Handy little jigger.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 19, 2020)

It’ll never come to anything though @timmeh as it’s not complete and I have no interest or idea what’s needed to finish it. Just pleased that I had the reversing box and gears etc spare.


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## wa5cab (Mar 19, 2020)

We have I think instructions for building two QCGB"s for the 618,  101.07301 and 101.21400 in Downloads.  It would probably be worthwhile to look at those, compare them to the partial one that you have, and see whether or not it matches one of them.  Other pieces may turn up or someone may decide that they want to buy what you have and make the missing pieces.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 21, 2020)

Fitted my gearbox, then took an ally bar, turned it down as a press fit, took one of my spare 20T gears and knocked off the teeth to make a spare spacer then the existing 24 spacer I turned down to 27mm then parted it off to make a 5mm spacer as I wanted to align the transfer gears correctly, then when I went to fit the screw gear I found my stub shaft had been turned down to fit the homemade gearbox!! Not a problem, I managed to swap the stubs over but kept the unmarked bevel gear as it was just roll pinned.  













Following repairing the gearbox I fitted the bull gear pin and detent / spring but first I managed to drop the spring inside down the back of the bull gear into the pulley, which caused me some consternation, so I made the decision to remove the head and retrieve the spring.
Whilst off I decided to use Mike Kurns’ original new old stock bull gear pin with detent feature as it was longer than my one which seems to have been made to fit. I’ve told Mike he can have the spare pin as it does work and when spares dry up he will at least have another spare for someone who is desperate.




Next up was the saddle, I removed the apron and immediately found the gear housing was snapped but still sat in the same position it should be due to its dowel pins. I replaced the gears and shaft as I had intended but also managed to stick the 2 parts together with my Tig . I say stick it together as it was clearly not welded! (I can tell you that it’s either cast or Zamak and it didn’t like being welded! It was fizzing and giving off a white residue on my torch). I have dropped Mike a line as he has a spare gear case for £32.
I will at least have piece of mind then that all is well inside.










Anyway, all in all I now have a lathe which is in rude health and does all it should with no backlash in the carriage and runs fairly quiet, but that’s not to say I won’t buy more parts to refine it even further and get rid of any evidence of it having seen much work in the past.

[media]


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## wa5cab (Mar 21, 2020)

Looks promising, anyway!  Yes, the carriage traverse gear case is cast in Zamak.  So is the lead screw right bearing and FWD-OFF-REV gear box casing, most of the gears and AFAIK, all of the cranks and hand wheels and the two tailstock ram locking cylinders.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 21, 2020)

Cheers @wa5cab
I have a spare lead screw and carrier bearing and plenty of gears. If I can find my low temperature alloy welding rods I might try to repair the reversing box. Tig is too much for Zamak, even with the amps right down it didn’t like it. For the thickness I should have been up around 60-80 amps but even at 30 amps it was turning to gloop! I had to turn off the up slope and try tacking then added a little filler once I stopped meting it!


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## wa5cab (Mar 21, 2020)

Yeah, aside from the consequences of the factory having been supplied with a bad batch of Zinc,  the main problem with Zamak is that parts made from it are seldom repairable.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 21, 2020)

@wa5cab is it worthwhile using moly grease on the side transfer gears down to the lead screw or must they be left dry?


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## wa5cab (Mar 21, 2020)

If you are referring to the change gears on the left end of the headstock  (that you assemble in various configuration to change the traverse power feed to the lead screw for various feeds or thread pitches), short answer is that they as well as the back gears in the headstock should be lubricated frequently.  For the details see the lubrication charts in various vintage editions of the MOLO.

You use grease on the gear teeth and SAE 20 ND on the bushings that they turn on.  That being said, the grease usually recommended is a lithium base grease rated for use on open gears.  To keep from being quickly slung off, it should have a fairly high melting temperature and be tacky.  The common greases found in the auto-parts stores usually lack both properties.  Unfortunately, the company that made the grease that Atlas recommended (whose name escapes me at the moment) was bought out by the French company Total who very quickly ceased the production of that grease.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 22, 2020)

I went with motorcycle chain lube in the end. Nice and quiet. The only issue I have now is the back gear lever creeps off until disengaged. Any ideas?

[media]


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## wa5cab (Mar 22, 2020)

Back Gears:  If you study the Headstock page of any 10F illustrated parts list dated from 1946 up to the final one in 1966, they are all the same as there were no changes to that part of the headstock.  The back gears are engaged and disengaged through the actions of two eccentrics, 10-251 and 10-252.  For the back gears to remain disengaged or engaged when subjected to vibration and when engaged to torque reaction while driving the spindle, the two 10-167 Wave Washers must be present and slightly compressed and the eccentrics must be on one side of their peak when engaged and the other side when disengaged.  If the eccentrics don't cross over their peaks while being engaged, torque forces and vibration will combine to make the lever slowly move back to the disengage position.

With the motor off, watch the motion of the back gears as you move the lever to engage them.  They should move toward the spindle and then back away from the spindle slightly, indicating that the eccentrics are rotating past their peak when going from disengaged to engaged.  If this is the case, all that I can suggest it to loosen the set screws in either or both collars and move them slightly on the shaft in the direction to squeeze the wave washers a little more.  If the gears move toward the spindle but bottom out and stop before breaking over center, you need to increase the thickness of the 10-261shim pack.  If the 10-254 Handle hits the headstock  before the eccentrics cross over their peaks, the only solution that I see is to make sure that the handle is tight, mark the headstock side of it, remove and and bend the handle away from the headstock.

As an aside, given that the lathe has obviously been repainted, it would not surprise me any to find that there are no 10-261 shims present.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 22, 2020)

Thank you Robert. Clear and concise.


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## Exuptoy (Mar 22, 2020)

I removed the motor earlier today to check bearings as it was noisy.

[media] 




The motor I found had no roller bearings but instead had soft bearings with helix cut for grease retention! 




So I greased the shaft on both sides and reassembled then refixed the motor after aligning  it correctly and shimming the motor as it was twisted in relation to the head pulley. I filled both main bearing cups with 10W40 as it was all I had handy and it sounds far better. Little improvements all the time. I should have a nice lathe once I’m finished.

[media]


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## Exuptoy (Mar 22, 2020)

One thing I just realised is when I removed the head it had 2 piece split white metal bearings which were set in the body of the casting & caps (which I assume are Babbit bearings?) and were maybe 20mm thick! I wish I'd taken a pic now! The model plate deffo states TV36 but I never noticed Timken roller bearings in there.
Could it have been modified if the PO couldn't source the correct timken bearings or just incorrectly badged?
Maybe the previous owner sourced a different bed for this lathe (which is where the name plate and serial number came from) as there are so many different parts with it like the spare lead screw, spare reversing box making up the home made QCGB, the extra gears etc. I'd assume the Babbit bearings would be normal for an earlier lathe although this one does have the power cross feed? Confusing. Maybe not all is as it seems?


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## wa5cab (Mar 22, 2020)

Glad that you noticed that.  I would guess more likely that the PO swapped the bed but didn't bother to swap the nameplate.  When I look at some of your photos, it is obviously a babbit bearing headstock.  Which would make the actual model number V36 assuming that the bed length is correct.

However, both Timken and babbit bearings were available on the 10" as far back as about 1935.  Which was well before the 10F appeared. And as late as 1945.  The headstock castings, although physically interchangeable and containing some of the same parts, are not themselves interchangable.  Different spindle and the babbit one is a little bit longer because of the ball thrust bearing.  My guess is that he changed the bed and happened to get one off of a TV36.  But in any case, it is a 10F because it has power crossfeed and a 2-piece carriage.  The actual model number would be V36.


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## yendor (Mar 24, 2020)

I see you have some 3D Printed Gears, I wonder if that Gear Box could be 3D printed?


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## Exuptoy (Mar 28, 2020)

yendor said:


> I see you have some 3D Printed Gears, I wonder if that Gear Box could be 3D printed?


The pic with the printed gear belongs to @timmeh maybe he could answer that?


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## Exuptoy (Mar 28, 2020)

I made a captive spacer for the cafe racer last night. Really pleased!


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## Exuptoy (Mar 29, 2020)

Used my milling slide today. Quite impressed.

[media]


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