# Atlas Headstock Bearings Questions And Concerns



## Strtspdlx (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm having chatter issues with my lathe. It's an atlas th54. First and foremost I do not have the wrong supported and its roughly 7" long of different sizes ranging from 3/4" to 1-1/2". I know I need support but I looked elsewhere. Check my bearings and had about .006 play using my 7" work to flex up and down. Tightened up the bearings and couldn't get better then .005 and now had a very notchy grainy feel which I was not satisfied with so I tore the spindle apart and found this but about 6 times more. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



So at this point it threw everything in the parts washer and had to pick a ton of this stuff out of the bearings. Which by the way are dated 12-10-46. And they seem fun by hand now. I posted on another forum and everyone says its felt. I don't believe it as this is a soft plastic stretchy substance and there's about 3 varying materials I found in the front bearing. Do I need felt in these bearings? Or is it not something atlas had engineered into the headstock. Now onto problem two. Carriage play. Unscrewed apron and had a lot of movement. I didn't set up and read how much but I'd say by feel it was well over .010. So I tore that apart and found this 
	

		
			
		

		
	



So at this point I'm well into the machine. I'm not doing a full restore just yet but if anyone has any insight as to what I should look into to better this machine is appreciate it. Right now my machine looks like this and is awaiting the weekend to get a much needed meet with some degreaser and the hose. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





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## wa5cab (Mar 24, 2015)

Strtspdlx,

It doesn't look like felt to me, either.  Certainly nothing that Atlas put in there.  Possibly some PO's misguided effort to convert it to sealed bearings???  AFAIK, the only non-metallic components associated with any bearings that Atlas ever installed was a felt plug in each of the spindle bearing oil cups (which I think didn't happen until the early 60's) and on some machines a pipe cleaner in the apron.

I would clean everything up, put it back together, and start over from scratch with a clean and properly oiled machine.  Put a new spindle belt on it as there is a possibility you won't need to pull the spindle again unless you later decide to strip and paint.

Also, how about posting the serial number?  We have very few serial numbers with matching bearing dates.


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 24, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> Strtspdlx,
> 
> It doesn't look like felt to me, either.  Certainly nothing that Atlas put in there.  Possibly some PO's misguided effort to convert it to sealed bearings???  AFAIK, the only non-metallic components associated with any bearings that Atlas ever installed was a felt plug in each of the spindle bearing oil cups (which I think didn't happen until the early 60's) and on some machines a pipe cleaner in the apron.
> 
> ...


Hopefully the picture helps. I cannot remember the name of it however. But it has removable links and up to date 6months or so) it hasn't given me an issue. 


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 24, 2015)

Ready for reassembly. I also have the spindle assembly at home awaiting reassembly also. What's a good oil weight to use for reassembly? I've been using 30wt oil is that appropriate 


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 24, 2015)

Much better. Now I have a question. The scroll gear that's under to forward most way I took out 7 screws and cannot get it to come off. I'm assuming it has pins to locate it. Anybody know? I don't want to break it. 


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 24, 2015)

both the half nuts & retainer and the miter gear and support assembly that the leadscrew pass through are bolted and pinned in place.
the pins are straight dowel pins.
zamak is soft and can break from a heavy hand...(don't ask how i know that )

i'd gently pry from the bottom, a little in each corner at first until i got a good bite.
then proceed cautiously and you'll be OK!


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 24, 2015)

Sorry not on the apron. I meant under the ways. It's not a scroll gear I can't remember what it's called but it's a long toothed rail that drives the apron and is held on by 7 screws. I'm assuming it's pinned on either end. But I'd like to be sure. 


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 24, 2015)

that make more sense, it's the gear rack you are referring to.
i do believe that is pinned as well.
if you tap on it with a hammer and a brass/bronze/aluminum/delrin drift you can gently work it off.
take another look just to make sure all the screws are out


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## Monte (Mar 24, 2015)

(strtspdlx)   "The scroll gear that's under the forward most way I took out 7 screws and cannot get it to come off. I'm assuming it has pins to locate it. Anybody know? I don't want to break it." ---------   If you are talking about the straight rack gear mounted under the front way attached to the bed, then yes it has pins to locate it. (at least my old craftsman 12" does) I don't know if they're tapered pins or not but I drove them out from the backside with a pin punch each end a little at a time. I had a punch that was already bent a little that worked well. The pins stayed with the gear and were snug so I assumed they were tapered. The bed on mine also is shorter than yours so you might have 3 pins rather than 2.  Also another possibility for the grunge found in your bearing could be chewed up nylon strings shed from an old drive belt. Just a thought. Enjoy your project cleanup.


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 24, 2015)

The belt shredded idea is definitely viable. And yes the rack gear is what I meant. I believe it only has two pins because I can lift the center pretty far. I will try to push them out tomorrow as its in desperate need of cleaning before I can reassemble the majority of parts. 


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## Monte (Mar 24, 2015)

Sorry, I did not see the 2 replies above before I completed mine. A 2-1/2 year old grandson is a major distraction at times.


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## wa5cab (Mar 24, 2015)

There are two pins (only) positioning the rack, and they are groove pins, so very slightly tapered.  Because of the slight taper, they will come out only in one direction, from inside to outside.

Also, the correct name for a long straight gear is just "rack", not "rack gear".  The mating gear is usually called the "pinion", as in "rack and pinion drive".  The pinion in this case is generically a spur gear.  There are other types of pinions, ring and pinion for example, where the pinion may be a bevel, spiral bevel or hypoid gear. 

Also, again, please post the serial number.  It should be stamped into the front way near the right (tailstock) end.  It will consist of up to five digits and may or may not have letter prefix and/or suffix.


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 25, 2015)

I did post a picture of it in post 3 I believe. 


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 25, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> There are two pins (only) positioning the rack, and they are groove pins, so very slightly tapered.  Because of the slight taper, they will come out only in one direction, from inside to outside.
> 
> Also, the correct name for a long straight gear is just "rack", not "rack gear".  The mating gear is usually called the "pinion", as in "rack and pinion drive".  The pinion in this case is generically a spur gear.  There are other types of pinions, ring and pinion for example, where the pinion may be a bevel, spiral bevel or hypoid gear.
> 
> Also, again, please post the serial number.  It should be stamped into the front way near the right (tailstock) end.  It will consist of up to five digits and may or may not have letter prefix and/or suffix.


 
Sorry I had posted a picture of the tag on
My machine with model and serial number in post 3. If it isn't showing please let me know. And the bearing date I had given is just the forward most (toward the chuck) race. I haven't had time to take the cups off the other bearing to remove and clean it. Now that I mention it what's the best way to remove the dust caps without damaging them. 


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## wa5cab (Mar 25, 2015)

Found the nameplate photo.  Thanks.I had looked at the embedded two photos and didn't notice that there was one that wasn't embedded.  

One way to remove the inner dust shields is with a slide hammer puller with a 3-jaw puller on the end.  This may deform the face a little but you can straighten that.  The chuck end cone is (usually) a press fit on the spindle, so the chuck end outer shield usually comes out with the spindle, which I assume is what happened.  You may need to tap it back flat before you reinstall it.  The left end outer shield might also come out with the puller.  Otherwise, you can get it out by pressing the cup out if you need to remove the cups.  Otherwise you can get it out by pulling on the ID of the cone.

One thing to check after the shields and cones are out and before you pull the cups (if you pull the cups) is to run a wire through the bottom of the oil cup and make sure that the hole is open to let oil through and onto the bearing.  I've never actually seen anyone else mention this but on the right bearing of my machine, it is blocked by something.  I have been squirting oil through the narrow gap between shield and bearing until I have time to investigate. Which is inconvenient as I have to pull the chuck to do it.

Also, early documentation from Atlas calls for SAE 10 oil everywhere but on the gear teeth.  This was changed around 1960 to SAE 20, retroactive.


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 25, 2015)

Okay. Sae 10 May be hard to find as i cannot recall ever seeing it in a parts store. I pulled the rear bearing and shields tonight rear bearing is dated 9-10-46 


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 25, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> Found the nameplate photo.  Thanks.I had looked at the embedded two photos and didn't notice that there was one that wasn't embedded.
> 
> One way to remove the inner dust shields is with a slide hammer puller with a 3-jaw puller on the end.  This may deform the face a little but you can straighten that.  The chuck end cone is (usually) a press fit on the spindle, so the chuck end outer shield usually comes out with the spindle, which I assume is what happened.  You may need to tap it back flat before you reinstall it.  The left end outer shield might also come out with the puller.  Otherwise, you can get it out by pressing the cup out if you need to remove the cups.  Otherwise you can get it out by pulling on the ID of the cone.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you mentioned to check the oil cups. The rear bearing cup cap was missing when I bought the machine and was filled with some junk. Cleaned it out best I could and let it roll. Never took oil in though. Apparently it was packed with brass/bronze chips and some other foreign material and was plugged solid. Luckily when I pulled the bearing it had oil in it. I need to find a cap or another cup for this machine. Any idea were I should purchase. Or what type I should use?


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## wa5cab (Mar 25, 2015)

No, you need to use SAE 20.  Which is at least down here even harder to find than SAE 10.  I use Mobile Heavy Medium Circulating Oil ISO 68.  Available from most machine shop supply places and mail order places like Enco.  What you don't want to use is any High Detergent mostly multi-viscosity engine oils because they are designed among other things to scavange moisture out of the atmosphere.  And a lathe won't get warm enough to boil it off.

OK on the 9-10-46 left bearing date.  Coincidentally, I have another serial number with both of them with that date.


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## wa5cab (Mar 25, 2015)

Strtspdlx said:


> I'm glad you mentioned to check the oil cups.
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They are, or were, standard Gitz.  But they are no long listed.  Problem is that the cup diameter is larger than the one they list today with the correct press-in port diameter.  I think Clausing still has some but they ain't cheap.  I bought some of the right angle ones for the QCGB from Clausing.  Price was a bit higher than from McMaster but they were a closer match to the originals.  You could probably get by with the smaller diameter cups but you might need to oil it two or three times a day.  And the felt plugs won't fit.


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 25, 2015)

So I should have felt in my cups right now. To date I started with marvel mystery oil when I first got the lathe just to get it going and withing the last couple months I've changed to sae30 oil. The months type. For now is that suitable? I'm asking because I have a lot of overstock of it. Something like 15 gallons because almost everything I own uses it. 

With the bearings and serial numbers how close is my serial number to the one you have already?


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 25, 2015)

Some updates on the overall project. I've splayed and scrubbed what I can with a toothbrush so far. I really need the hose to blow off some of the packed in stuff. Would anyone recommend against soaking the motor down. I plan to blow it out with air and let it sit for about a week before I try to run it again. That's if I decide to not pull it off and take it apart. 
	

		
			
		

		
	








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## wa5cab (Mar 25, 2015)

I would disassemble the motor and then wash it out with Varsol or equivalent.  And let it set for several days.

I didn't read your previous carefully enough and notice that your left spindle oil cup is still present but missing the cap.  I think that you can buy from McMaster (and probably other places) the proper diameter cup, just that the press in port will be too large.  However, you can salvage the cap and spring from the new cup, and graft it onto yours.

The serial number of the one with both bearing dates of 9/10/46 is  072641.

I actually used SAE 30 in my 3996 for several years until I found the substitute for SAE 20.  If your shop is warm, it should be OK.

Your machine didn't originally come with felt plugs in the spindle oil cups.  And the PO didn't add them apparently.  Which is probably why the capless one was plugged.  If you decide to buy a sheet of felt and make them with an arch punch, the felt is fairly low density.


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 26, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> I would disassemble the motor and then wash it out with Varsol or equivalent.  And let it set for several days.
> 
> I didn't read your previous carefully enough and notice that your left spindle oil cup is still present but missing the cap.  I think that you can buy from McMaster (and probably other places) the proper diameter cup, just that the press in port will be too large.  However, you can salvage the cap and spring from the new cup, and graft it onto yours.
> 
> ...



Well since I have this wonderful lathe. Would you think if I had bought different cups with too large and insert. That they could be turned down to proper size?  I suppose I'd have to have one in hand and be able to measure everything correctly. I have it so far apart now it would be shame
To not paint it. But generally if I ever try to
Paint something I never get around to finishing it. I hate paint work. I'm good at it I just cannot stand it. It's funny because I work in an automotive body shop however I'm the head mechanic. 


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## wa5cab (Mar 26, 2015)

No, you can't buy a larger one and turn down the spout that gets pressed into the bearing journal because the cups are deep drawn from steel sheet and the wall thickness of the spout is far too thin.  Your best bet is to buy the larger one and swap the cap and spring.


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 27, 2015)

Alright sounds like a plan. I appreciate your insight into all this. You're definitely one intelligent person. Hopefully I can have it back together by Sunday evening. 


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 27, 2015)

Started reassembly. Got the carriage on and to my displeasure I have .004 play in the rear and just about .002 in the front. This is after I spent about 45 minutes changing shims and such. Got the spindle all setup with a 7" length piece chucked up. Couldn't get any better then .004 play. And I think the spindle may be bent. Rotation is smooth except at one point were I can feel a bind. I'm hoping I can run it in and readjust. I have the motor off and am taking it apart to clean it. It's amazing what you'll find in some of this stuff. And luckily for me I found the front half of the case of the motor has a chunk cracked. Hopefully I'm not at fault. I was tapping lightly with a brass hammer. 
	

		
			
		

		
	







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## Inflight (Mar 28, 2015)

Walmart sells SAE 20 non-detergent oil in quarts.


Matt


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## Strtspdlx (Mar 29, 2015)

Not sure if at this point I should start a new thread. If so please let me know and I will. I started pulling apart the motor and it was packed with metal brass and bronze. A chunk of the case broke off and I'm waiting till tomorrow so I can wash it in parts washer and stick it in my oven at work then I'll attempt to braze it. Or possibly mig since I've had decent results mig welding cast iron for a mini vice I use. Also I'm looking to see if anyone has a motor similar to mine that they'd like to part with since I'd like to keep this as original as possible is like to have a spare on hand as this one is seeming to lose power. 
	

		
			
		

		
	







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## wa5cab (Mar 31, 2015)

You have a Timken bearing headstock, not babbit.  There are no reason why you should have any play at all if you properly preloaded the bearings.and if the cones are still tight on the spindle.  Runout, maybe.  Play or side to side or up to down motion, no.


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## Strtspdlx (Apr 1, 2015)

Okay I still have .004 up-down with a 7" piece in my chuck and a tight spot in the rotation. I'm waiting for a manual once I get one I'll do it exactly as it says to and see what happens. 


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## wa5cab (Apr 1, 2015)

OK.


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## Round in circles (Apr 1, 2015)

Strtspdlx,
Re :-
In your first post  the first picture I strongly think the crud you have is fine turned off metal particles and shavings that have entered the bearing cavity via the clearance gap of the thin sheet metal caps that cover either side of the the bearings.

When I took possession off my lathe in August last year the lathe was noisy and"   heavy " running off load .  I found the  bearing grease ( Yes , I have grease caps/points as original fittings ) bleed out had brass , aluminium and what looked like cast iron particles in it after I washed it out in a carbon tetrachloride ( CTC)  de-greaser to see what the metal content was .

On taking head stock shaft out (mine is held in by removable bearing caps ) there was loads of metal & grease crud identical to what you show that flushed out the taper bearings when I washed them out with CTC and a 1/2 " paint brush . Once cleaned & dried off  I re greased them , reassembled everything then refilled the grease pots ....  the lathe now runs as quite as a mouse and as smooth as silk at the headstock .

My next step is to alleviate a noisy cross shaft that flings out the daily oil lubrication like there is no tomorrow , it has evidently been run dry for a long time as the cross shaft ends in the bearings bears 2 battle wounds " .
I hope to make new bearing blocks and insert a pair of circlip retained sealed for life high speed ball bearing races in each mounting block instead of messing around with phosphor bronze to make precision reamed bearings & all that that entails .


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## Round in circles (Apr 1, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> No, you can't buy a larger one and turn down the spout that gets pressed into the bearing journal because the cups are deep drawn from steel sheet and the wall thickness of the spout is far too thin.  Your best bet is to buy the larger one and swap the cap and spring.




  " Loctite " can solve that problem Robert  .....simply turn a small stepped adapter collar out of a high grade steel  bolt and " glue " it in .. 

Guess , I'll have to go and wash my mouth out with carbolic soap  ........ right now !


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## wa5cab (Apr 1, 2015)

Yes, that would work.  But it will be at least half an inch taller than the other one and look like a jury rig.  Whereas unless the hinge ears are broken off of the old cup, once fixed the way that I suggested it would look (and be) original.


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## Strtspdlx (Apr 2, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> Yes, that would work.  But it will be at least half an inch taller than the other one and look like a jury rig.  Whereas unless the hinge ears are broken off of the old cup, once fixed the way that I suggested it would look (and be) original.



It's funny you mention that. The hinge is still fully intact on the cup missing the cap. It seems as though just the cap broke off the hinge. 

At this point I'm attempting to repair the cracked motor housing once this is repaired and working (hopefully). I can run the machine in and see if I can alleviate most of my issues. 

I think now when I had reinstalled the dust covers I may have ran on in too far and moved one of the bearing races and this may be why I'm having the issue I am. 


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## wa5cab (Apr 3, 2015)

OK on the oil cup.  I probably should have asked for confirmation of that before suggesting buying the larger cup for the cap.

Perhaps the best way to install the inner dust covers would be to install them first.  Then pull in the cups.  If the covers are too far in, they would be moved back out until the cup bottomed on the machined shoulder.


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## Firebrick43 (Mar 5, 2016)

You said you have .006" on a 7" bar.  How are you measuring this?   In setting up spindle units on some big machines at work(3stories tall and the pallet you can park a medium duty truck on) we check alignment and runout with some 2 micron indicators.  Just pushing on the test bar lightly a single finger will get 5 microns (.0004")of flex on the test bar. Walking across the massive pallets does the same.  Pulling with some force will see several thousands.  Some of this is bar flex and some machine

Point is if such a massive machine is flexed the limp noodle that our atlas surely will more so.  I don't remember the numbers but tension and untension the belts on your atlas with an indicator on the side of a bar and you will se several thousands movement. This is not necessarily play but the lightly made spindle flexing.


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