# Clausing 100 mk3a Timken spindle bearings



## COMachinist

Hi All
Well I think it is time to change bearings in my Clausing 100 mk3a. So I don’t know crapola about bearing but I know they aren’t cheap. How ever a new lathe is $3600+ for Grizzly or a PM 12x36 lathe. So bearings would be cheap I guess. I want best bearings but don’t know what ask for or order. Don't even know the bearings that are in it. I do know it has started chattering like crazy all of a sudden, and there is about .0015-002 play in the spndle side to side and less than 5 tenths end to end so thinking bearings. Any one know the numbers of bearing and class I need to order? Where to order? I search the forum for bearing info on clausing but no joy. Any help is appreciated.
Thanks
CH


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## Kernbigo

Sounds like they may only need to be taken up a little. Put a piece of round stock in the chuck  about a foot long and give it the lift test. By taking up some end play you will reduce the amount of lift.Timken's cold should be around  +.001


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## markba633csi

Yes they may only need readjusting, try that first.  
Mark


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## COMachinist

Ok that is what i did, the lift test. .002 I tried to adjust the end play but that is about .0005-.0007 and can’t be 0’d out no help on the run out. I don’t know how old the bearings are. They maybe original for all I know. I have had the lathe a few years and usd the heck put of it. Never had chatter unless I over did depth of cut, untill now.q even lite cuts chatter like crazy. Gibs are all adjusted, clean and oiled. It’s got drip oilers and I keep them full.


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## wa5cab

While over tightening the spindle bearings should have no effect on runout, with tapered roller bearings you should always be able to reduce the end float to zero.  And the lift to zero also unless your chuck jaws are bell mouthed.  When cold, Timkens should be slightly over tightened to all for lengthening of the spindle as it warms up.  The only exception that I could think of was if either cone is not at least a light press fit on the spindle.

When doing the lift test, you should use a solid bar that will just fit through the spindle and indicate the register area of the spindle, not the bar.

On buying the bearings, you should be able to still get them from Clausing.  I never asked about ones for a Clausing but I know that they do still stock ones for the Atlas machines.


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## rock_breaker

I think I have a similar lathe and believe you may have a cracked bearing roller. Not the best news I know but I believe you can check them without much trouble. Memory fails me so you may want to check with the Clausing lathe site  in the UK.
I bought replacement bearings about 10 years ago through  the CarQuest auto parts store. Yes they are pricey.
There used to be a bearing house in Colorado Springs, Moore Bearing Co. that supplied most bearings to the cement plant near Florence. Not sure if they are still there but Pueblo Bearing, Pueblo, CO was a good source as well. 
Have a good day
Ray
P.S. You may want to take the bearings to the replacement supplier to be sure of all dimensions.


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## COMachinist

wa5cab said:


> While over tightening the spindle bearings should have no effect on runout, with tapered roller bearings you should always be able to reduce the end float to zero.  And the lift to zero also unless your chuck jaws are bell mouthed.  When cold, Timkens should be slightly over tightened to all for lengthening of the spindle as it warms up.  The only exception that I could think of was if either cone is not at least a light press fit on the spindle.
> 
> When doing the lift test, you should use a solid bar that will just fit through the spindle and indicate the register area of the spindle, not the bar.
> 
> On buying the bearings, you should be able to still get them from Clausing.  I never asked about ones for a Clausing but I know that they do still stock ones for the Atlas machines.


Hi
Actually I called Clausing and they where abosulutly no help at all. The lady was only able to tell me that the bearings where discontinued, which I allready figured. They couldnot even tell me a Timken Number.  I mean she was worthless.
CH


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## COMachinist

rock_breaker said:


> I think I have a similar lathe and believe you may have a cracked bearing roller. Not the best news I know but I believe you can check them without much trouble. Memory fails me so you may want to check with the Clausing lathe site  in the UK.
> I bought replacement bearings about 10 years ago through  the CarQuest auto parts store. Yes they are pricey.
> There used to be a bearing house in Colorado Springs, Moore Bearing Co. that supplied most bearings to the cement plant near Florence. Not sure if they are still there but Pueblo Bearing, Pueblo, CO was a good source as well.
> Have a good day
> Ray
> P.S. You may want to take the bearings to the replacement supplier to be sure of all dimensions.


Hi Rock Braeker
I may talk to Whistler Bearing here in Colorado Springs. They usually are willing to help. Im tring to get a couple projects  finished before i rebuild the spindle. Is there any way to get the bearing numbers without tearing down the lathe head stock?  It looks like this could take a while to get parts together. I am tempted to just try to get the money together and order a Grizzly 12x36 gunsmith lathe or a Presion Mathews. That lathe has paid for its self many times over. Ijust hate to scrap a nice old iron lathe like that. I have so much nice tooling for it. Oh well every thing gets old theses days, kind of like me, ready for the scrap heap.
CH


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## wa5cab

COMachinist said:


> Hi
> Actually I called Clausing and they where abosulutly no help at all. The lady was only able to tell me that the bearings where discontinued, which I allready figured. They couldnot even tell me a Temkin Number.  I mean she was wortless.
> CH


Well, that is quite strange.  I don't have a Clausing lathe and all of my calls to Clausing have been about Atlas lathes, mills, etc. I had just assumed that if they still supported the Atlas line at least partially, they would for sure have continued support of the Clausing line.  Maybe they made so few of them that there wasn't enough business to warrant keeping parts.

In any case, if no one knows what the commercial bearing numbers are, if they are Timken the 3, 4 or 5-digit Timken part numbers should be etched into both the cup and the cone.

Also, although I can't guarantee that Clausing still has this info as they still do some of the Atlas, but it's worth another phone call and this time, ask for Tom McNett.  Unfortunately, Jolene, the woman in Sales who would at least have been able to tell you flatly that they didn't have any info on the older Clausing machines retired maybe two years ago.  The ones who are left are a mix of helpful but haven't been there too long and (censored).

In any case, I would hate to see you scrap the Clausing in favor of something from Grizzly just over a pair of bearings.


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## rock_breaker

COMachinist said:


> Hi Rock Braeker
> I may talk to Whistler Bearing here in Colorado Springs. They usually are willing to help. Im tring to get a couple projects  finished before i rebuild the spindle. Is there any way to get the bearing numbers without tearing down the lathe head stock?  It looks like this could take a while to get parts together. I am tempted to just try to get the money together and order a Grizzly 12x36 gunsmith lathe or a Presion Mathews. That lathe has paid for its self many times over. Ijust hate to scrap a nice old iron lathe like that. I have so much nice tooling for it. Oh well every thing gets old theses days, kind of like me, ready for the scrap heap.
> CH


If you are beyond 84 you may be getting old. I do not have records of the bearing numbers. There is a website in the UK that may have this information, not sure about the Clausing dealership here in the US. 
As for dismantling the headstock it seems like the outer races do the adjusting but am unsure about the one on the chuck end.   I do remember using 1/2" all thread a bearing splitter and shims to get the shaft out. As I recall I didn't push against the cast iron housing but included it as shim material. Some of the shims were 1/2" torch cut scrap iron with the slag ground off.  
If you do retire your lathe please keep me in mind.    
Ray


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## Silverbullet

You keep talking the ole girl down she's gonna hear you . Bearings are out there and all over , you just have to get the numbers. Lots of bearing suppliers still carry timken bearings. If you were close to me I'd help fix it just to keep her doing what she's made for.


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## cascao

Ask for P6 precision class bearings if you want the best bearings.


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## Shootymacshootface

It sounds like your lathe is unusable in its present state, so the first thing that i would do is remove the bearings and races. They should have numbers right on them. Then i would check with Fleepride, NAPA, or a bearing specialty store (in that order) for availability and pricing.


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## GrayTech

Once you know the numbers you can search for deals. Always best to pull out the old ones and match them in case any mods were done and they're not standard.
I was lucky and found two matched pairs of 62x25 metric Timken roller bearings with cups (4 complete bearings) for $40 including shipping. Always good to have a spare set, especially at that price.


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## seagiant

Hi,
        There should be a Timken # in the Manual let me know???


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## wa5cab

No, the manuals only show the Clausing part numbers, which include both cup and cone (if the bearings are tapered roller instead of ball).


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## seagiant

Hi,
       Saw this, still looking.

Nothing in my paperwork was hoping for PO hand writen # there somewhere?

http://www.lathes.co.uk/clausing/page6.html

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/181/4657.pdf

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...istory/clausing-dual-timken-x-bearing-341274/


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## wa5cab

As I wrote earlier, it would be worth a phone call to Clausing.  Ask for Tom McNett.  He will at least know whether or not Clausing still has anything on the 100 or 4800 Series.


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## mcostello

8500 series, think that's the number I have bearings are around $3000 and My finger did not stutter. I also need a set.


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## COMachinist

seagiant said:


> Hi,
> There should be a Timken # in the Manual let me know???


Well found the bearing number in an old doc called the service and repair manual problem is the only thing that they list is the clausing part number, which we already know is discontinued. So alternative is to tear down the lathe and completely restor it. Mean while it looks like I will be buying a new PM, 12x36 or a new Grizzly G0750G 12x36. I like the Grizzly because ever thing Is sealed so the grit from the shop don’t get  in the gear head and or the change box, plus you can get to the spider with out taking the end gear covers.
I don’t think after you buy all the add ons., cast iron cabnets/stands the better motor  the PM is a lot more exspensive. Precision Mathews does have the Ultra precision 12x36 but is is even closer near 5k and that is to much for me now.
CH


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## Shootymacshootface

Again, if you were to remove your old bearings there is an excellent chance that you will find a Timken or TRW part number right on the bearing. Any parts guy with a computer can then easily find a replacement. Forget about the obsolete Clausing number.


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## Latinrascalrg1

Is the spindle bearing for this lathe a timkin 14125A  tapered bearing or is it a timkin 30212 P5 bearing?


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## wa5cab

Most tapered roller bearings consist of two separable parts, a cup and a cone.  Most cones will fit several non-interchangable cups.  And some cups will fit more than one cone.  Most (but not all) manufacturers who use standard tapered roller bearings assign their own part number to the cup and cone that they use as it simplifies logistics.  But no one outside of a specific company would maintain lists of OEM to individual part numbers.  For that information, you have to either look at the ones that your machine uses or go to the OEM.  As I said earlier.


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## COMachinist

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> Is the spindle bearing for this lathe a timkin 14125A  tapered bearing or is it a timkin 30212 P5 bearing?


I’m not sure what the bearing numbers are. I don’t have the lathe disassembled yet. I just finshed a project I was working on , a new  draw bar for my mill. I also made new larger dials for the crossslide. The chater was so bad on the draw bar it looked like it was cold chiseled out. Tis has just started in last month or so and, yes the end play and preload on the spindle was checked. I also  saw the two teeth are broken off the spindle bull gear which I have not used at all.  I do all my single point threading on the slowest belt settingaa which is slow enough if you pay attention. I’m going to get started just as sone as I get a replacement lathe. To use this summer. Think I’ll just completely restore the old gal and have the bed restored  and new paint bearings and bushings. I have about a foot of acme lh 1/2” rod to redo the crosslide lead screw and a new nut. I have desided to keep it.
Thanks
CH.


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## COMachinist

GrayTech said:


> Once you know the numbers you can search for deals. Always best to pull out the old ones and match them in case any mods were done and they're not standard.
> I was lucky and found two matched pairs of 62x25 metric Timken roller bearings with cups (4 complete bearings) for $40 including shipping. Always good to have a spare set, especially at that price.


Hi are you saying that 62x25 metric bearing fits the Clausing 100mk3a/4800?  What is the thickness of the metric bearing 62x25x? 
Thanks
 CH


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## GrayTech

COMachinist said:


> GrayTech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once you know the numbers you can search for deals. Always best to pull out the old ones and match them in case any mods were done and they're not standard.
> I was lucky and found two matched pairs of 62x25 metric Timken roller bearings with cups (4 complete bearings) for $40 including shipping. Always good to have a spare set, especially at that price.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi are you saying that 62x25 metric bearing fits the Clausing 100mk3a/4800? What is the thickness of the metric bearing 62x25x?
> Thanks
> CH
Click to expand...

No, that was just the size I needed for my mill. Sorry if it got confusing. 

Sent from my H3123 using Tapatalk


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## COMachinist

Got them this should be pinned in the clausing lathe forum! Damn what an ordeal.
Ok both spindle cup are Timken 14274A
Forward next to chuck cone Timken 14137A
Rear next to gear train, Timken 14125A
These bearings are rated at 90 million revs there was no information on class or P rating. You can look at  the specs, at cadtemkin.com  I printed the spec sheet and cad drawing. They still make this bearing for clausing 100 mk3 lathes. These are nothing more than wheel bearings. What a let down you can get bearings and cups for under a 100.00. My oil change cost more than twice that on my outboard. Ultra presion bearings where no avalable during WWII when 99% of these lathes were made. Todays wheel bearings are better than any ting make during those years. They were good enough to defeat NAZI war machines. They should do for me.
Thanks to all who replied. Even the stray OT posters.
CH


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## wa5cab

Interesting - the rear cone is the same as on the Atlas at that position.

I put the basic information in a Sticky.


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## COMachinist

wa5cab said:


> Interesting - the rear cone is the same as on the Atlas at that position.
> 
> I put the basic information in a Sticky.


I know it suprized me as well. The cups fit two differant size cones. The front inside diameter of the cone is 1.3750”. The id of the back cone is1.2500 and the width is the same as the front cone. Both cups  same od and width.
Thanks for making this easy to find glad to be able to contribute.
CH


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## COMachinist

Ok here is the latest on bearings for these older lathes. Temkin is out of stock on the industrial precision bearings that would be the class 3, 0 the 00, 000 were never made in these sizes. Temkim has no plans to make a production run on these bearing again they are retired. The class 3s have if you can find NOS bearings some where, have +.0003 -0000 TIR the standard bearings in this size have .0015 TIR. I begged the regional sale manager to request a production run and no joy. Besides it will be at least a year from when they descide if ever to do an other production run. Before we will see them. 
So people take damn good care of your clausing 100 spindel bearing there is no more. This the word from Temkin. I got 2 large company's looking for NOS 3’s or by gods grace 0. For my lathe right now. Mean while I guess something used or crap china made lathe. I’ll be making a decision on wheather to part the old girl or not. I’v got lots neat stuff for it like near metric change gears, steady rest, bull gear assbys, chucks, lots of taped drills, 2mt, 3mt and larger. Collet chuck. Ect.
Tell me what you think.
CH


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## Shootymacshootface

Good job on trying to hunt those bearings down. It's good to get info like this out there. 

John (Aka shooty)


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## wa5cab

One thing I'll mention about the difference between bearing classes and what any given actual bearing might be.  The bearing class sets the limit of various dimensions and runouts.  Any given bearing could be better in some or all respects than the limits for its class.  If Timken were making a production run of Class 3 and Class 0 (Timken C and B) bearings, they would test for Class 0 only until they met the production count of 0's that they needed.  Then they would only test to Class 3 for the rest of the run.

The ABMA Class list from not so good to best runs 4, 2, 3, 0 & 00 (some time after 2000 Class 000 was apparently added).  But a Class 3 would have a TIR of 0.0003", not 0.003".  And the Assembled Bearing Radial Runout figures quoted are in 0.0001" increments.  Over the same range, the maximum allowable runouts are 0.0020", 0.0015", 0003", 0.00015" and 0.000075".

Also, Timken did at one time make and sell Class 2 bearings.  These are marked Timken but do not carry a Class identifier.


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## Barncat

I also have a mk3, so I took your bearing numbers to our local bearing place just to see if they had anything. They list them for $230 each. They didn't have any stocked, so he called timken and was told they were 29 months away from doing a production run on them, if they did one at all. Bummer for all of us with one of these machines.


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## Fortis64

I Know this is an oldish posting ,but have you tried the UK for Timken bearings because they are readily available here . I replaced the spindle bearings on my Centec2 with Timken . 

Sean


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## wa5cab

Barncat,

As they say (or used to say, although the walking was through a different medium), let your fingers do the walking.  Start doing some internet searches on the Timken part numbers either with or without Timken and Bearing.  You may eventually turn up someone who still has the number or numbers on hand.  Local sellers are much less likely to have slow moving numbers and probably periodically sell off anything that's been in the shelf for a while.


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## Fortis64

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Taper-Roller-Bearings-Taper-Roller-Bearings/c1_5459/index.html


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## Shootymacshootface

Fortis64 said:


> https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Taper-Roller-Bearings-Taper-Roller-Bearings/c1_5459/index.html


Thanks for posting! What a great resource. 
Shooty


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## Barncat

I don't need these, was just looking for the other member that needed them. I have looked online with the part numbers, the problem is that there are different precision classes. It is easy to find that number bearing, but they are all wheel bearings. I have asked quite a few sellers if they were the precision grade, and none of them ever know. I did contact that UK bearing dealer, but haven't heard back.


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## Fortis64

Barncat said:


> I don't need these, was just looking for the other member that needed them. I have looked online with the part numbers, the problem is that there are different precision classes. It is easy to find that number bearing, but they are all wheel bearings. I have asked quite a few sellers if they were the precision grade, and none of them ever know. I did contact that UK bearing dealer, but haven't heard back.


Phone them and ask for a guy Gary ,they couldn't do enough for me . This is where I bought the Timken bearing for my Centec2 mill ,I also had problems getting the correct belts for my Fortis lathe they helped me out after several call backs from them ,so I'm surprised you've had no response. 

Sean


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## Barncat

Just contacted them after seeing the link, so it hasn't been that long.


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## Fortis64

Barncat said:


> Just contacted them after seeing the link, so it hasn't been that long.


Chances are they would've been on a half day which is quite common over here in the UK


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## john.k

Typically,Timken have price levels for slow moving stock that are hair raising..............old taper roller motorbike wheel bearings being an example..............if available ,prices in the hundreds...............Now i have reco ed a number of lathes replacing old precision bearings with stock bearings..............I only use SKF,Koyo ,or another top jap brand that is actually made in Japan.......I have found that you can expect runouts of half a thou typically with taper rollers................and its much easier to get much better precision with angular contact/or even deep groove balls.(and cheaper).The reason I steer clear of Timken is most of their production is third world,and I am suspicious of the very cheap Timken big truck wheel bearings that sell for about $50 ....a wheel......big bearings....that IMHO cant possibly have super precision( ,and dont need it.).............there are also large markups in the bearing trade.....with monthly account customers getting an 80 % discount at a $5000/month buy point..........and bearing distributors marking $100 retail on a $5 buyin cost.....before overheads ,obviously..........stock theft used to be very high in the trade.


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## Barncat

Heard back from the UK bearing place. They said those bearings don't cross reference to any other brand and timken doesn't plan making any more for at least 8 months. They also said they never plan on making the bearing cups again.


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## rock_breaker

Ouch!!!
Perhaps a personal visit to a bearing house with the bearings in hand?
I can't remember the exact machine but I went to the local Car Quest Automotive store with a precision bearing in hand. The store manager measured it then put the measurements in their computer. When the results came back bearings were available but pricey, not quite breaking the bank. 
Good luck
Ray


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## john.k

Time to forget the numbers,and go on the dimensions.......firstly,is the cup flanged......if so, you arent likely to find replacements........assuming the outer dia is plain,then go to the dimensions.


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## Fortis64

john.k said:


> Typically,Timken have price levels for slow moving stock that are hair raising..............old taper roller motorbike wheel bearings being an example..............if available ,prices in the hundreds...............Now i have reco ed a number of lathes replacing old precision bearings with stock bearings..............I only use SKF,Koyo ,or another top jap brand that is actually made in Japan.......I have found that you can expect runouts of half a thou typically with taper rollers................and its much easier to get much better precision with angular contact/or even deep groove balls.(and cheaper).The reason I steer clear of Timken is most of their production is third world,and I am suspicious of the very cheap Timken big truck wheel bearings that sell for about $50 ....a wheel......big bearings....that IMHO cant possibly have super precision( ,and dont need it.).............there are also large markups in the bearing trade.....with monthly account customers getting an 80 % discount at a $5000/month buy point..........and bearing distributors marking $100 retail on a $5 buyin cost.....before overheads ,obviously..........stock theft used to be very high in the trade.



I've zero run on my Centec spindle using Timken bearings ,and the spindle on my Fortis lathe


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## john.k

You can be lucky.....The runout I mentioned was a max to be expected,if I said 3 tenths,someone would object saying their replacement ranout 5 tenths..................As I said ,ya can be lucky............long time ago someone showed me a cheap Chinese woodlathe where the headstock spindle assy had no discernable runout with a tenths dialguage......so we re talking microns with a $2 bearing..................


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## COMachinist

Well, finally got the spindle out to look at the bearings. They are orignal class 3 bearings one from 3-30-46 and the front one12-30-45 they do show some where but they don’t look all that bad they are marked with the date and the class. 






Thanks for looking.
CH


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## Barncat

Wonder how bad it would be with non-precision bearings back in there. Good enough for a sanding lathe? I think those are common wheel bearing size.


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## wa5cab

Don't do it unless you have no choice.  And as I wrote elsewhere, there is nothing visible in your photos that would cause me to want to replace them.  You are looking at over $100 for the Class 2's and probably over $500 for the Class 3's.  If you find any for under $100 they are either counterfeit or maybe old stock Class 2's being sold cheap.


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## COMachinist

wa5cab said:


> Don't do it unless you have no choice.  And as I wrote elsewhere, there is nothing visible in your photos that would cause me to want to replace them.  You are looking at over $100 for the Class 2's and probably over $500 for the Class 3's.  If you find any for under $100 they are either counterfeit or maybe old stock Class 2's being sold cheap.


What is the talerence on a class 2? Is that like Nascar wheel bearings?  I herd back from Temkin today, lead time on the 14174A class 3 is now 31 weeks, hand made, and 33 weeks on the 14125A class 3 $627.98, both are custom hand made. I guess I’ll just reuse the old 40s bearings. I need to fix 2 teeth on the spindle bull gear, clean up the repaire and put every thing back together.
I only gave 1000 for the lathe. LOL
CH


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## wa5cab

ABMA/ANSI Class 2 Tapered Roller Bearings have a maximum Assembled Bearing Radial Runout of 0.0015".  Class 3 is 0.0003".

Neither the ABMA manual nor Timken mention what to use for NASCAR so I don't know.

I see no reason not to reuse the original bearings.  Unlike ball bearings, tapered roller bearings can have a fairly significant amount of wear on the rollers and the cup and still perform to original specs.


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## COMachinist

“Neither the ABMA manual nor Timken mention what to use for NASCAR so I don't know.”
LOL this was just me trying to lighten up a little. I was searching for 14125A bearing sources and there was some NACAR super speedway bearings that have some super secret coating on them, super blue or something like that. I saw Temkins precicion bearing PDF for the different grades of bearings. I noted that that spec is for 4” bearing and 6” cup. I’m thinking that a class 2 at 1.25” would be much less tha .0015”, and that the .0015 is max allowed not average, or nominal assembled run out?
CH


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## wa5cab

Well, we have no way of knowing short of buying a bunch of expensive bearings and more expensive QC equipment and running our own tests. 

The Class 2 specs are actually for any bearings up to a cup OD of 12".  I used to work for a company that used Timken bearings that were around 30" diameter.  They supported the longitudinal defect rotating inspection heads which could inspect pipe up to 13-5/8" casing, with couplings in place.  Even in the mid 1960's, those were some expensive bearings.  Someone once told me that Timken originally made the bearings for the main rotors on the CH-46 Chinook.

I should have put a Smiley after my NASCAR comment.


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## eedriz

COMachinist said:


> Hi All
> Well I think it is time to change bearings in my Clausing 100 mk3a. So I don’t know crapola about bearing but I know they aren’t cheap. How ever a new lathe is $3600+ for Grizzly or a PM 12x36 lathe. So bearings would be cheap I guess. I want best bearings but don’t know what ask for or order. Don't even know the bearings that are in it. I do know it has started chattering like crazy all of a sudden, and there is about .0015-002 play in the spndle side to side and less than 5 tenths end to end so thinking bearings. Any one know the numbers of bearing and class I need to order? Where to order? I search the forum for bearing info on clausing but no joy. Any help is appreciated.
> Thanks
> CH


I can help  you on bearing description  all in need is the number written on the bearing.


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## wa5cab

If someone will post the Timken numbers along with which are cups and which are cones, and which are the larger two and which the smaller, I'll put it in a PDF and put that in Downloads.


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## Liljoebrshooter

Is there anyway to adapt an angular contact bearing to fit?


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## Barncat

wa5cab said:


> If someone will post the Timken numbers along with which are cups and which are cones, and which are the larger two and which the smaller, I'll put it in a PDF and put that in Downloads.


Didn't we already get the numbers?








						Clausing Lathe 12" 100 & 4800 Series Spindle Bearings
					

Clausing Lathe 100 & 4800 Series 12" Spindle Bearings  Spindle Cups (Both) ******************    Timken 14274A Spindle Cone (Forward next to chuck)   Timken 14137A Spindle Cone (Rear next to gear train)   Timken 14125A  Courtesy of COMachinist 2018/06/04




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## COMachinist

Liljoebrshooter said:


> Is there anyway to adapt an angular contact bearing to fit?


I have contacted every body that sells bearings even a few places in Europe/UK. There is no bearing that crosses over thatqq fits both ID, OD requirement. Nothing in mm or inch size bearings. Been thinking about boring the head case for a a different od, bearing with the 1.250 and chuck end 1.375 id.
CH


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## wa5cab

OK.  I must have missed that.  If someone will independently confirm the three numbers, I will put a PDF version of the list into the Clausing Lathe folder (Category) in Downloads.


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## Mwmx54

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/181/4657.pdf
		

This manual has the bearing numbers listed,
They are 
Front cone=14137A
Rear cone=14125A
Cups=14274
 my original timken “X” bearings are toast, I replaced them with new timken bearings from motion industries, and they don’t cut it, they have different runout readings depending on which direction I rotate the spindle, it’s noticable in the work.
unfortunately finding precision class replacements was impossible, nobody I tried makes them or sells them or can source them, so if anyone comes up with a good alternative I’m sure a few of us would be greatly appreciative. 
I even spent a little time looking at what would be involved to replace them with some A/C bearings, but that kind of thing is a pretty involved science that I am not proficient in.


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## rock_breaker

MWMX54
Good morning! 
I have a similar lathe and replaced the bearings about 5 years ago. I bought them from Superior Auto Parts in Cortez, CO (970-565-8494) who had to order them and yes they were expensive. I have no affiliation with them but have always gotten excellent service. They may not be able to get them now but it may be worth a phone call. 
Have a good day 
Ray


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## Mwmx54

Rock_breaker
Thanks for the lead, I’ll give them a call tomorrow, do you recall what class bearing you were able to get from them? And did they end up being timken brand?


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## john.k

Ive found Koyo  and SKF bearings are better in standard grades .....especially Koyo ,as they are Japanese made ,and the company is owned by Toyota.


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## rock_breaker

Mwmx54
They were not Timken and I can't recall the class (old age).  The manager is the one who handled the sale etc.. It would seem like one of the bearing houses in Salt Lake could find them but if they can't, a substitute may be in the future.  AS John.K says the SKF brand may give good performnce. Good luck !
Ray


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## Latinrascalrg1

For those of you whom already went through the rebuild process on this lathe I have a question if you wouldn't mind answering.

Seeing that we have the Unobtainium style of bearings, what do you think the possibilities are for adapting a  bearing with larger ID using a bushing of some type while keeping the OD either the same or close enough so that only minor fitting changes need to be made to the headstock?  Yes i know Anything is possible given enough time and money but im speaking in realistic terms of it being so please try to keep that in mind as you mull over your reply as Im not working for NASA but still would need some semblance of Accuracy to be achievable!


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## john.k

In this particular case,it seems a suitable dimensioned replacement was available,just not the precision grade required by the user....this can sometimes be cured by a selection of bearings......and a co operative supplier......or the old adage...what cant be cured must be endured.


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## Mwmx54

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> For those of you whom already went through the rebuild process on this lathe I have a question if you wouldn't mind answering.
> 
> Seeing that we have the Unobtainium style of bearings, what do you think the possibilities are for adapting a  bearing with larger ID using a bushing of some type while keeping the OD either the same or close enough so that only minor fitting changes need to be made to the headstock?  Yes i know Anything is possible given enough time and money but im speaking in realistic terms of it being so please try to keep that in mind as you mull over your reply as Im not working for NASA but still would need some semblance of Accuracy to be achievable!


I’ve thought about it, but with limited bearing knowledge, did not make it far, I believe being able to adapt a pair of A/C(angular contact) bearings in the front of the spindle would be superior to the tapered bearings, due to the preload being built into the pair and not being required to add preload from the front to the back of the headstock, which creates quite a bit of flex across the headstock. It’s just a matter of finding a suitable bearing that doesnt require too much modification to the headstock casting, preferably none so as to not add potential misalignment, if you could do that a simple deep groove bearing could be used in place of the rear tapered bearing. Or a 2nd pair of A/C(angular contact) bearings.


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## wa5cab

I assume that you are using A/C to mean some specific type of ball bearing, although I am at a loss to decide what is.  But in any case, on this site A/C means Atlas/Craftsman.  As Clausing and Atlas both used Timken Tapered Roller Bearings, you can't be saying to use the Atlas bearings (part of which are the same anyway).  So please edit your post above accordingly.


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## Mwmx54

wa5cab said:


> I assume that you are using A/C to mean some specific type of ball bearing, although I am at a loss to decide what is.  But in any case, on this site A/C means Atlas/Craftsman.  As Clausing and Atlas both used Timken Tapered Roller Bearings, you can't be saying to use the Atlas bearings (part of which are the same anyway).  So please edit your post above accordingly.


Angular contact bearings
The type of bearing used in machine tool spindles of more recent machine tools. More recent being the last 40 years or so. That’s not meant to sound snarky at all either. Maybe A/C isn’t the right abbreviation, it’s just what I thought of while I was typing that from my cell phone.
You’re right about one of the bearing cones from the clausing 100 being the same as the atlas craftsman 12X36 that I have I think it’s the rear spindle bearing (which is of course the least of which I really need). But the outer races are different between the two machines. I actually have an entire headstock from a 12X36 craftsman that I stole the spindle from because a PO decided to bore the spindle out on mine, and it made the taper not fit well and I messed it up further trying to fix it. It was nice being able to fit <.760” stock through the spindle though.


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## Latinrascalrg1

Mwm54 thank you, that is all good info and it is very much appreciated.


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## Latinrascalrg1

john.k said:


> In this particular case,it seems a suitable dimensioned replacement was available,just not the precision grade required by the user....this can sometimes be cured by a selection of bearings......and a co operative supplier......or the old adage...what cant be cured must be endured.


This is a Serious although admittedly probably farfetched question but nothing ventured nothing gained soooo is there anyone who knows if  there is any way to Improve on the quality of these sub-par bearings themselves somehow? Maybe by some type of lapping or grinding process?   Im thinking thats probably not a realistic achievable goal, at least for the hobbyist but I find brainstorming with like minded people to be very beneficial plus i guess my way of thinking has Always  been that "Nothing has EVER been possible until It Was!"


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## markba633csi

Not possible to improve a bearing's grade AFAIK
once it's manufactured and assembled


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## Latinrascalrg1

markba633csi said:


> Not possible to improve a bearing's grade AFAIK
> once it's manufactured and assembled


Ok even this is good...because this statement has me asking the question of How different grade bearings are produced?  My train of thought is that in the metal working world the precision is worked out of the material.....or it gets better as more work is put into it!  So my thoughts are that these "lesser" grade bearings were put together before they were "finished" being made into high grade bearings! If this holds any water then I believe it opens up different possibilities that may have been overlooked, maybe!


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## macardoso

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> because this statement has me asking the question of How different grade bearings are produced?


 
Typically all grades of bearings are produced on the same line, although perhaps with extra care being required if making large quantities of precision bearings. The completed races, balls, rollers, cups, etc are measured for runout, surface finish, form error, hardness, and any other important traits before being binned for assembly in a particular class of accuracy. The bearing assemblies are then put together and final checks for vibration, runout, and temperature are conducted to verify the bearing meets the required specifications for an accuracy class. If it fails, it is not thrown out, but rather marked and packaged as a lower accuracy class (unless it is non-functional of course). If you dive into bearing classification, you will find that there are specifications for runout of each race as well as the entire assembly. If over production of high class bearings occurs, the manufacturer can choose to brand them at a lower accuracy class, although I doubt this happens often in practice.


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## Latinrascalrg1

Ok so they produce large amounts of the individual "balls or pins" bearing that are then divided into separate batches based of how close to "perfect" they actually are.  These are then matched to a set of races and then depending on their actual performance as a group are then designated a precision grade.  I realize this is really simplifying the subject matter however is this pretty much what happens?


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## macardoso

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> I realize this is really simplifying the subject matter however is this pretty much what happens?



Pretty much! If you know each component of the bearing meets a manufacturing specification, then when the bearing is assembled, all you need to do is a final verification of the performance of the assembly. There should be no surprises about what class the assembly will meet.

Here is a horrendously oversimplified How it's Made episode:


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## Mwmx54

There is also an old video of clausing company building machines that shows them checking every single individual roller, and putting them in separate bins so that (I assume) like size rollers can all be assembled together into bearings. It’s a cool video, Brian bloc on YouTube found and posted or reposted it on YouTube not long ago.


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## wa5cab

Standards of tolerance for ball bearings and tapered roller bearings are called different things.  Tapered roller bearings that we would be interested in are covered in the US by ANSI/ABMA and their "goodness" is defined as their Class, which for unknown historical reasons, runs from poorer to better as Class 4, 2, 3, 0, 00 and 000.  Timken has their own system which seems to use the same standards but is called (nothing), (nothing), C, B, A and AA.  By (nothing), I mean that nothing is engraved on the bearing to say that it meets a particular class.  Timken claims, as far as I can tell, that all unmarked bearings that they sell are at least Class 2.

The various dimensions of the bearings are all specified but the only one that ever gets mentioned seems to be the assembled bearing radial runout. And for the most part, the only bearing that anyone ever reports having measured is the one nearest the chuck.  Because of the way that both the Clausing and the Atlas spindles are made, most of the other dimensional tolerances either aren't as important are just aren't important when assembling or using the headstock.  It has generally been assumed that the spindle bearings found with engraved dates in the Atlas machines (no one has ever said whether or not the Clausing machines had dated bearings during the same roughly 1940 to 1953 time frame) are Class 3 (AKA Class C)

I was unsuccessful in getting Timken to confirm this but the logical assumption is that bearing classes are produced like the old carbon composition resistors were.  Suppose that the company has orders on hand for X Class 2, Y Class 3 and Z Class 0 bearings.  So they make X+Y+Z bearings and start testing.  When they have marked Z of them as Class 0 and the rest as Class 2 or 3, they quit testing to or marking Class 0.  When they have marked Y as Class 3, everything remaining only gets tested to Class 2 (which are not marked, or maybe are only marked as Timken).  So the bearings in the Class 2 bin are at least Class 2 but could be better.  And I would guess that the ones that don't meet Class 2 get sold to someone else for sale to people who are more concerned about cost than anything else.


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## Mwmx54

I just bought on eBay, a vintage looking 14137A front spindle cone. The bearing itself is marked X, like the original, but the box says class 0. Does anyone know what class the 0 is, I mean where it compares to the original bearing. I’ve been watching eBay for over a year for these bearings in some sort of precision class. Someday a rear precision cone will pop up too, and some outer races. I got the bearing for $22 shipped. 
The pic shows what the box says. I’m hoping it’s better than the brand new timken I had to put in, which is surprisingly bad.


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## wa5cab

The ANSI/ABMA grading system for tapered roller bearings (inch design) in order of increasing precision runs 

CLASS 4, 2, 3, 0, 00.  

There is now a class 000 but my table dates to 1994 and doesn't show it.

The parameter of most interest on a Clausing or Atlas lathe is probably the Assembled Bearing Radial Runout.   In ten-thousandths of an inch (NOT THOUSANDTHS), for tapered roller bearings with cup outside diameters up to 12", the limits are:

20, 15. 3, 1.5, 0.75

How they get around the fact that the bearings may have cup and cone packaged separately isn't explained..  But your Class 0 cone when mated to a class 0 cup should supposedly have a radial runout less than or equal to 0.00015".


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## Mwmx54

Unfortunately I do not have a class 0 cup, the class 0 bearing I purchased is a cup and cone combo, but the cup is a 14277 which is .100” wider than the original. Maybe it will work, but I may have to either mate it up to the new “standard” precision timken cup, and hope for the best, or just put it aside and  wait for class 0 bearing assembly to pop up. Also, I noticed you said that you hadn’t heard if the 1940-1950s clausing 100’s had dated engraved original bearings, my 1946 100 does indeed have the exact same engravings that my atlas/craftsman of the same era has, engravings even look like they were done by the same person, maybe timken does the engraving, because at the time these machines were built, atlas and clausing were still separate companies.


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## wa5cab

Thanks for the info on the dates.  Their presence and the similarity to those on the equivalent Atlas parts suggests that it was Timken who did it.

And you're right about Atlas and Clausing still being separate companies when the practice started.  The earliest dated bearings that have been reported in an Atlas built machine (a 12" as it happens) are 11/08/1939 and 11/09/1939.  And Atlas did not buy Clausing until 1949/50.


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## john.k

Taper rollers are by far the most difficult bearing to get a precision outcome...........In my experience of refitting with standard tapers,there is always a runout that is driven by the caged rollers.....it generally repeats about every second revolution.......this is not possible to adjust  out,and when a front 1/2 runout is combined with a rear 1/2 runout,things get confused......A single roller has a number of possible variables .....size ,diameter ,angle,and end thrust surface.......and all these are difficult to measure.......unlike a ball bearing.....the ball is a certain diameter ,and thats it .....the only variable.........There is no one reading this forum who could test a taper roller,or either taper race,whereas just about anyone could test a ball or plain roller ,and the races.,for size and runout..............There is a film of Gamet bearing assembly,and the precision taper rollers are sorted into about 20 different categories prior to assembly...............most of the Euro lathes use balls or plain rollers ,not tapers.


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## wa5cab

All that you say is true.  However...  The only reason that any manufacturer would put ball bearings on a lathe spindle is that cost is more important to them than long term performance.  Ball bearings and straight roller bearings wear out relatively quickly.  And there is really nothing that you can do about it but replace them.  Tapered roller bearings that are properly adjusted and lubricated will outlast most humans.  New owners of old lathes generally make two mistakes.  First, they seem to universally insist upon removing the headstock from the bed "to paint it."  Second, they routinely want to change the spindle bearings.  If the lathe has sleeve or ball bearings, they should, because odds are that the spindle bearings are worn.  If the lathe has Timken tapered roller bearings, they most likely don't need to unless the lathe hasn't been oiled since it left the factory.


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