# Has anyone made a dual axis tramming tool?



## HMF (Apr 15, 2011)

Hey Guys,

This is available commercially, but I thought some of you may have made one. It is a dual axis tramming tool for a mill.


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## woodguy (Apr 15, 2011)

How about this one:

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=822.msg5441#msg5441


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## HMF (Apr 15, 2011)

> author=Paddy OFernichur link=topic=1723.msg10531#msg10531 date=1302877392
> 
> Never made one or even thought about it, as I use an Indicol and a good DTI. I have, however, though about finding a good large-diameter bearing race to sweep the indicator on. Nice &amp; smooth instead of the interrupted readings over the t-slots of the mill.



I'm not sure, but I thought people used a brake rotor to sweep the table top with?

[video=youtube;ZfioLDhBNBQ] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfioLDhBNBQ [/video]


http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=30323

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=21221

http://www.machinistblog.com/how-i-tram-my-mini-mill/

Regards,

Nelson


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## Starlight Tools (Apr 15, 2011)

Watch out for brake rotors, they are not always perfectly flat, I know, my truck tells me every time I step on the brakes. 

A large bearing race is almost guaranteed to be flat.

Walter


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## AR1911 (Apr 15, 2011)

I never saw the point in the dual setup.
I just made a single-head trammer. 
12" 1x2" bar of aluminum.
Big caliper bolt in one end.
Back-plunder DTi with a "button" tip on it on the other end
The caliper bolt was from the junk box. It has threads under the head, and a long untreaded tip to go in the collet.
The button-tip lets it ride over the table slots easily
The back-plunger dial lets it ride face up so you can always see it.

I sometimes use a brake rotor. I machined it carefully on a brake lathe, then cut the hub out with the last pass. 
Works fine with a DTI, but with the above setup I don't need it.


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## GK1918 (Apr 17, 2011)

for Nelson, I know what you are talking about. Most call me nuts for making things from wood. Yes
some make all fancy smancy out of stainless yes good work but how much pressure is needed for
a dial indicator. dial ind is like the weight of a bug. Your pic says it all. piece 90*s to round stock
attach dial ind. to that, thats it. I just find brake rotors ok but off a little off out of the box. By using two
dials I think is faster its one half the rotation of one. find the low and high set to "0" try again, then
tap the head a little with your hand reset to "0" until both read "0" the reason is, with one dial. you
just cant sweep across the T slots I dont know depends on the size of the table. I like wide sweeps.
bottom line Nelson is all us old timers have old ways, cant say its book stuff but works. I wrote many
times on these sites, when a problem stop-think to be solved is right under ya nose. I find a lot of
people they think over built (when kid i did that) no more. My shop alarm no digies no keypads no
secret IDs a piece of black string wired to a 12vt batt with two car horns facing my window in series
with out door lights. break string-horn goes off lights go on, no hi teck stuff. Since then I modify this
to a home depot wireless wired to my string that turns a radio on in the house, so no horn or lights
home depot :clicker; I just bypassed the clicker button to trip my string. Oh If I could only know how
to make a vidio. Latest is ball turning? fancy stuff, just learn to do it with your compound rest. Its there
make it work for you. The best thing everybody can do Is read up how you do it in say 1910. aint no
cnc's then . everbodys so geared up if they aint got couputor hooked up it cant be done. nonsense.


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## rossbotics (Sep 10, 2011)

never, never, ever use anything on the table of the mill to tram against, only tram on the table itself, there is no such thing as a perfectly flat rotor, i don't care who told you this method it is wrong !!!!!!!!!!


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## brucer (Sep 10, 2011)

i also use an indicol and interapid indicator with a carbide tip and only indicate the table... no way would i use a brake rotor...  indicating off an object on the table just adds more variable to the mix..


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## Blogwitch (Sep 10, 2011)

Nelson,

I have made a couple now, both work extremely well.

Woodguy gave the link to my build on Madmodder. That will save me having to post all about it on here.

For the people who swear by the single indicator method. Well that was my way of thinking until I made mine, no more rubber necking or mirrors to see the gauge, no more laying sheet material over the table slots to stop the tip of your gauge being bent, no more jumping readings as you turn the quill etc, etc. 

It's OK while you are young, but as you become older and more fragile, easier is always better, which I also think makes us wiser as well.

Not that these are an old persons tool, as they are surely not, just a more efficient and easier method than previous ways of doing it, and anyone would benefit by either buying or making one. The prices have dropped dramatically for commercial units since I made mine.


John


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## brucer (Sep 10, 2011)

> author=Bogstandard link=topic=1723.msg25279#msg25279 date=1315691192
> 
> For the people who swear by the single indicator method. Well that was my way of thinking until I made mine, no more rubber necking or mirrors to see the gauge, no more laying sheet material over the table slots to stop the tip of your gauge being bent, no more jumping readings as you turn the quill etc, etc.
> 
> John



no mirror or rubber necking going on here, most people buy the wrong type of indicator for mill work


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## Magnum (Sep 11, 2011)

I bought one of the SPIs and they are great. I would like to buy one that has a little more distance between the indicators.


It's funny. after I bought mine I was reamed a new one on a few boards for wasting my money. However I felt it was very accurate and my parts have come out accurate as well. After a few weeks a few of the "older" guys bought/borrowed some and did great reviews and said they were great for tramming a mill.

Not sure why it is when a newbie finds something very useful they are attacked because it is not the OLD way of doing things. Kinda of the treatment I got when I tried to tell fellow employees the computer was going to replace the drafting board ######

Anyway, these are great for setting up as well as a quick check.




> author=Allthumbz link=topic=1723.msg10506#msg10506 date=1302870014]
> 
> Hey Guys,
> 
> This is available commercially, but I thought some of you may have made one. It is a dual axis tramming tool for a mill.


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## brucer (Sep 11, 2011)

> author=Magnum link=topic=1723.msg25450#msg25450 date=1315783120
> I bought one of the SPIs and they are great. I would like to buy one that has a little more distance between the indicators.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Magnum (Sep 11, 2011)

> author=brucer link=topic=1723.msg25462#msg25462 date=1315786360
> How much do the tramming things cost?
> i think its and added cost that isnt needed, you could spend that money on other more useful tooling, maybe a set of angle plates or a rotary table, a drill chuck or such... just my opinion..



Yea, that was the response I got. What people spend on their equipment is irrelevant sometimes. At the time I had just spent $40K on my machines/tooling and scanning equipment so an extra $200 was a drop in the bucket. I have recovered my cost on this tool.


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## Starlight Tools (Sep 11, 2011)

Magnum

I agree, we are in this as a hobby to have fun and enjoy ourselves. Ultimately it is up to us to justify the cost of our hobby. If i see something that I want for my hobby, I will get it. I bought the Taiwan lathe instead of the Chinese lathe even though it was over twice as expensive, because I could and because I wanted the better quality. It was my money and it is my enjoyment that is at stake.

So way to go for getting the indicator that you wanted, regardless of what else the money could have been spent on! 

It was spent on your enjoyment and that is waht really matters.

Walter


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## Blogwitch (Sep 11, 2011)

When I first made my one, there were lots of derogatory remarks about it, saying it wasn't needed, other methods were better to tramming wasn't all that important anyway.

By the time I made the second one for a disabled friend, people couldn't make one fast enough. Especially after I did a post about the effects of being out of tram.

With mine, and I suspect the same with the commercial ones as well, I can be trammed, adjusted, done and dusted in about 5 minutes without getting up from my chair.

If they were at the reasonable prices they are nowadays, I maybe wouldn't have made mine, but bought one. Mine would cost, to buy the metal and clocks etc, about 25 to 30 UK pounds, plus about 4 to 5 hours work. They can be bought here for about 70 pounds, so taking into account the labour involved, the commercial one is cheaper, but I did enjoy making them.

John


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## brucer (Sep 12, 2011)

> author=Magnum link=topic=1723.msg25465#msg25465 date=1315786873
> 
> 
> > author=brucer link=topic=1723.msg25462#msg25462 date=1315786360
> ...



so this is now a professional machining forum?
I dont know too many hobbyist's spending 40k on machines, tooling and scanners...

I took $200 that one of those tram tools cost (or the cost of 2 decent indicators and the time it cost to make it) and bought 2 matching suburban angle plates, 2 drill chucks, a decent 6" kurt vise, set of r8 collets and a box of endmills and inserts... as a hobbyist i try to stretch my money as far as i can, as a professional toolmaker i dont need a tramming tool. 

its not being derogatory or negative, i can find better things to spend my time and money on...

guess i have a different view of the machine tool trades than others do.. i dont throw time and money away on uneeded tooling..


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## Magnum (Sep 12, 2011)

> author=brucer link=topic=1723.msg25496#msg25496 date=1315803164
> 
> so this is now a professional machining forum?
> I dont know too many hobbyist's spending 40k on machines, tooling and scanners...



Well... I guess you wouldn't like the fact I just spent $250 on a fishing rod/reel then for my other hobby? People spend what they can afford.

But it does seem I am not in the correct forums of peers.. Guess I am now considered a professional and should move on.


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## Starlight Tools (Sep 12, 2011)

Magnum

I do not think you need to move on. There are quite a few of us that have spent large amounts on our workshops. My workshop sort of doubles as a small business / hobby. As I have stated before it is often hard for me to determine where the hobby starts and the work ends. 

Even though this forum is more aimed at the Hobby Machinist, it requires members with all sorts of skill levels and all sorts of shop set ups to be sucessful. Those that have more experience can help those with less experience. Those with one type of equipment can help somebody else with the same type of equipment. Even the most inexperienced person in one area can have a mountain of experience in an other area.

Magnun, hold in there, yes there are a few chaps that figure we can be a hobby machinist and spend nothing, or very little. Unfortuantaley this is a hobby that cost money, time and or both. The machine is the cheapest part of the equation, it is the tooling that adds up.

Aslo keep this in mind; What is the difference between an Amatuer and a Professional (Machinist, Photographer, etc?)

Only one thing, the Professional gets paid! There is nothing that says an Amateur can not, or is not better at his craft than a Professional. Many Amatuers have met over the years actually do work to better standards than most Pro's I have met.

Walter


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## Starlight Tools (Sep 12, 2011)

Jerry

Any time you are dealing with a table that is rough and pitted, and where some previous operator forgot to place sacrificial boards under the work and drilled divots into the table, you need to first start by stoning the table to remove any high spots.

Next we set the indicator tip to avoid as many of those (extra) holes as possible. Now we tram the head by doing our best to make sure that we are not dropping the needle of the indicator into a divot, or even the T-Slot grooves. 

Here is a good link to an article on Milling machine tramming by Tom Davis of the Valley Metal Club based out of Arizona.  

http://hobby-machinist.com/index.php?topic=143.0

Walter


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## Starlight Tools (Sep 12, 2011)

Jerry

Never said that! Rarely would I consider removing the table and having it ground!

Use a hand stone and remove any raised burrs and dings. If you really want to clean up the table get some metal filled epoxy like Devcon and fill in any divots that are left, then carefully file, and stone them down to get a table surface that looks almost blemish free. The main point is that a raised bump on the table will cause a part placed on it to roack and not sit flat to the table, a depressed divot on the other hand will act more as an oil well and less as a hinderance in that most items clamped over it will bridge without a problem, and will not be effected in any way by the hole. Large gashes, and chunks may be a problem.

Walter


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## Starlight Tools (Sep 12, 2011)

that's Ok Jerry, I thought you were just pulling my chain.

The link that I pointed out shows about stoning down the table.

Walter


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## Magnum (Sep 12, 2011)

Won't be long till my hobby will be turning into a small business. But there is a lot to be learned by hobbyist and how they accomplish things. More specifically small parts and holding. I do think my point was lost in the posts. It is cheaper to make things but first you must have a very accurate machine to make tools to set your machine up to within .001. Something like this fits that.


Back on the topic from the OP, not sure anyone has seen the different uses for a tool like this. Here is how they are used and an example of alternate uses. My machine is CNC not a tilt head, so can't use the second video.

[video=youtube;qGdptphPWGs] http://www.youtube.com/user/mrpete222#p/u/44/qGdptphPWGs [/video]


You might want to forward to the 5:00 minute mark on this one:


[video=youtube;RMmSsQj6S6s] http://www.youtube.com/user/mrpete222#p/u/39/RMmSsQj6S6s [/video]







> author=starlight_tools link=topic=1723.msg25532#msg25532 date=1315842038
> Magnum
> 
> I do not think you need to move on. There are quite a few of us that have spent large amounts on our workshops. My workshop sort of doubles as a small business / hobby. As I have stated before it is often hard for me to determine where the hobby starts and the work ends.


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## Tenn (Sep 13, 2011)

Saw several rather abrasive comments about not using brake rotors to tram a mill head. I can see your point but after very carefully turning a rotor down on both sides and checking it for flat and thickness tolerances to suit myself on a surface plate I find it quite satisfactory for tramming my mill head in. If you want or need tolerances closer than 0.001" then you will probably want something other than a brake rotor. My mill table is so badly scarred and abused by the former owner that those tolerances are quite satisfactory for my own purposes and probably for others as well. Just my two cents worth. I liked the idea of a large bearing race and I like the idea of the tramming tool as well but it's not in my budget so I make do with what I have. It is amazing the tolerances one can accomplish with less than perfect machinery if you have a bit of patience and do the best you can with what you have. ;0


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## Magnum (Sep 13, 2011)

I actually started to buy/use a brake rotor for my mill as like you say it seem like a very practical solution as they are in dead held to within .001 tolerance on most rotors. However, having designed rotors before (train/helicopter type application) I realized there may be an issue most are overlooking.

What about rotor surface finish, most are in the 30-60Ra. Is that a smooth enough surface to indicate off of? (Been a long time converting that to grit, but isn't that about 120-80 grit?)

What about the parallelism of the brake rotor surface and the hub part that would sit on the mill table? I would think using the front of the rotor would have the closest tolerance as it must hold the rim on the car. But the back side may very well anybody's guess as its tolerance. The video posted shows the correct way I think to place the rotor I think.








> author=Tenn link=topic=1723.msg25674#msg25674 date=1315953591
> Saw several rather abrasive comments about not using brake rotors to tram a mill head. I can see your point but after very carefully turning a rotor down on both sides and checking it for flat and thickness tolerances to suit myself on a surface plate I find it quite satisfactory for tramming my mill head in. If you want or need tolerances closer than 0.001" then you will probably want something other than a brake rotor. My mill table is so badly scarred and abused by the former owner that those tolerances are quite satisfactory for my own purposes and probably for others as well. Just my two cents worth. I liked the idea of a large bearing race and I like the idea of the tramming tool as well but it's not in my budget so I make do with what I have. It is amazing the tolerances one can accomplish with less than perfect machinery if you have a bit of patience and do the best you can with what you have. ;0


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