# Almost there, one thousanth of  an inch



## ome (Oct 12, 2013)

Hi guys ,
spent a fewe good hours and still makes that jump on the indicator all of a sudde

any ideas would be very helpful
thanks,
Jon


----------



## Tony Wells (Oct 12, 2013)

Jon, we need a little more to go on. What are you indicating, and on what machine, what indicator, etc. Every moving part of our machines should be smooth, and only if there is a flaw in the surface you are indicating should there be any sudden change on your indicator, generally speaking.

Have any pictures?


----------



## ome (Oct 12, 2013)

tony wells said:


> jon, we need a little more to go on. What are you indicating, and on what machine, what indicator, etc. Every moving part of our machines should be smooth, and only if there is a flaw in the surface you are indicating should there be any sudden change on your indicator, generally speaking.
> 
> Have any pictures?






	

		
			
		

		
	
t    i had my machinist friend make me up1" diameter test bar with a good center drilled at each end
i indicated off the test bar about 1.5" away from the jaws.
Thanks.
Jon


----------



## Ray C (Oct 12, 2013)

ome,

Which chuck is that, the Cushman?  Nice looking.

Indeed, as Tony said, a small imperfection will show up in the DI reading.  It could be an issue in the bearings or even a chipped tooth in the gears.  Try disengaging all the gears.  Could even be a problem in the live center bearings.  -Which brings-up another issue.  I presume you're adjusting your chuck and if that's the case, using a live center is complicating issues.  Let us know what you're up to there -what's the end goal?  and we'll try to give a push in the right direction.


Ray


----------



## stupoty (Oct 12, 2013)

Is it the same if you reverse the test bar (end to end) ? 

Does it do the same if you mount the test bar between centers?

Stuart


----------



## itsme_Bernie (Oct 12, 2013)

Yes, I didn't think it helped much at all to put a nice test bar on anything but dead centers on each side.  I think putting a test bar on a chuck and live center tests the chuck and live center more than the alignment if the lathe?



Bernie


----------



## Bill C. (Oct 12, 2013)

ome said:


> Hi guys ,
> spent a fewe good hours and still makes that jump on the indicator all of a sudde
> 
> any ideas would be very helpful
> ...



Double check your alignment of your indicator point.  Make sure it is dead center of the test shaft. It can give you a misreading when you turn the chuck in one direction then reverse direction,


----------



## Tom Griffin (Oct 12, 2013)

Jon,

A "jump" in an indicator is caused by a local imperfection on what it's running on, any misalignment would result in a more gradual change. Your set-up is also incorrect for anything you are trying to do. If you want to check the alignment of the spindle centerline with the bed (twist), you need to chuck the bar and leave the right end free. If you want to check for headstock and tailstock alignment (taper), or the runout on either center you would hold the bar between centers. You are attempting to use both set-ups at once and they are fighting each other.

I suspect you are trying to align the spindle to the bed, so I would suggest using *Rollie's Dad's Method* covered *here*.

Tom


----------



## tarmo120 (Oct 12, 2013)

ome said:


> test bar with a good center drilled at each end.
> Jon



When I was starting lathe work, I watched the tubalcain videos. And in one video he specifically tells why to center drill and then re-cut the 60 degree surface. Because the center drill will not give you as accurate surface, you want at this time.
He drilled it in 4 jaw chuck, then indicated the freshly drilled center and it was off about .008''. Then in the same operation(didn't remove the stock) he re-cut the 60 degree angle.
4 jaw because he indicated the stock very accurately to absolute center.
I would check the centers.


----------



## ome (Oct 12, 2013)

Hi guys,
sorry for the pic, i do not have a center touching the teat bar , only one end in chuck.  It is a new buck chuck adjust tru 6". 

I am trying to use the adjustment screw to get it on dead center zero. 
I put the test bar in more so only 2 " sticking out, and that made a difference, it was 11 thou out, now it is 1 thou out. 
Thanks
jon


----------



## DAN_IN_MN (Oct 12, 2013)

ome said:


> View attachment 62103
> View attachment 62102
> 
> 
> ...




Depending on what you're machining, you're probably close enough.  

Do you know how close the centers drills of the shaft are to the OD of the shaft?

If your headstock spindle will take the 1 inch shaft, chuck the shaft up short and measure the runout of the OD and center hole.  Try the shaft a couple of different places in the chuck too. (loosen the chuck, rotate the shaft, tighten, check runout.)


----------



## DAN_IN_MN (Oct 12, 2013)

ome said:


> Hi guys,
> sorry for the pic, i do not have a center touching the teat bar , only one end in chuck.  It is a new buck chuck adjust tru 6".
> 
> I am trying to use the adjustment screw to get it on dead center zero.
> ...



Jon

Is this 3 jaw chuck adjustable?


----------



## ome (Oct 12, 2013)

DAN_IN_MN said:


> Jon
> 
> Is this 3 jaw chuck adjustable?


yes, this is a 6' adjust tru Buck chuck..
Thanks,
jon

- - - Updated - - -



DAN_IN_MN said:


> Depending on what you're machining, you're probably close enough.
> 
> Do you know how close the centers drills of the shaft are to the OD of the shaft?
> 
> If your headstock spindle will take the 1 inch shaft, chuck the shaft up short and measure the runout of the OD and center hole.  Try the shaft a couple of different places in the chuck too. (loosen the chuck, rotate the shaft, tighten, check runout.)


Thanks,
That is what i eventually did and got it from 11 thou to 1 thou out.
Here are the pics, am i correct?






Is this the correct type of indicator, only cost about 30-40.  or should i us my smaller test dial indicator starret with back plunger, not the smaller last word 711?
Thanks again guys.  at this point whatever fine adjustments on the chuck i make only seems to get it further out.
I figured out that the jump on the indicator was because i had not snugged up one of the bolts holding the chuck body to the backing plate, once snugged, no more jump!
any other help would be great, this is the first 3 jaw adjustable chuck i have had and/or  indicated to zero.  I figured i would start with this chuck before going to a 4 jaw independant.
I did find it helpful to use two hex keys at once to adjust the opposite side of the adjusting screws  
Thanks
jon


----------



## ome (Oct 12, 2013)

Ray C said:


> ome,
> 
> Which chuck is that, the Cushman?  Nice looking.
> 
> ...


thanks Ray,
sorry for the confusion,wrong pic, never had the other end of test bar in the tailstock center, just was out too far.
here are some pics of the setup i am using to try to get to 0.  i am 1 thou out now, and any attempts at adjusting the 4 screws make it worse.any help would be great  thanks to all
jon


----------



## Tony Wells (Oct 12, 2013)

Jon, could be simply lack of practice. Those are very good chucks, and you should be able to get a true rod to show virtually no TIR. As long as you're sure that rod is round, it can be made to run almost perfectly. That indicator would not be my first choice when needing to get something dead true. A test indicator would be better once you get to the sub 0.001 level. I've used a few older Bucks and had little trouble getting them to run within 0.0002/0.0003 or better. In the last few steps, don't stress about tightening the opposing screws, just back off slightly on the "low" side and let the tension relax. You'll get there.


----------



## ome (Oct 12, 2013)

Tony Wells said:


> Jon, could be simply lack of practice. Those are very good chucks, and you should be able to get a true rod to show virtually no TIR. As long as you're sure that rod is round, it can be made to run almost perfectly. That indicator would not be my first choice when needing to get something dead true. A test indicator would be better once you get to the sub 0.001 level. I've used a few older Bucks and had little trouble getting them to run within 0.0002/0.0003 or better. In the last few steps, don't stress about tightening the opposing screws, just back off slightly on the "low" side and let the tension relax. You'll get there.


Thank You Tony,
I know what you are saying, and that is probably most of the reason.  thanks though, for the support.  You mentioned using a test dial indicator.
I was thinking of using a starrett model 196,  has a back plunger, i just have to get it to fit the larger diameter rods for the mag base.

Thanks,
Jon


----------



## Bill Gruby (Oct 12, 2013)

The resolution .001 on that gage will make it difficult to get to absolute  zero the closer you get, the harder it is to see needle movement. You could, in all probability be closer than you think.  A .0005 resolution would make the minute moves you need look larger in needle movement. They are harder to get used to but much greater accuracy is seen.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Tony Wells (Oct 12, 2013)

I've never been a great fan of those back plunger indicators. They have their place, but it isn't where you are working, IMO. A dial test indicator would be much better to see smaller movements. That's what they are made for and why they have such little travel compared to the run of the mill 1.000 AGD group2 indicators, although indicators in that style are made in much finer resolution/graduation than 0.001. 

While also not a huge fan on the Last Word, they are good indicators when properly maintained and used, and would be better for what you are doing that the larger dial. Give it a try. Remember to always rotate the chuck the same direction during testing. Skip the back plunger indicator.


----------



## Bill Gruby (Oct 12, 2013)

This is my recommendation for a Dial Test Indicator. Brown & Sharpe BesTest  .030 range by .0005. Black and White 1 1/2 inch face.

 "Billy G"


----------



## ome (Oct 12, 2013)

Tony Wells said:


> I've never been a great fan of those back plunger indicators. They have their place, but it isn't where you are working, IMO. A dial test indicator would be much better to see smaller movements. That's what they are made for and why they have such little travel compared to the run of the mill 1.000 AGD group2 indicators, although indicators in that style are made in much finer resolution/graduation than 0.001.
> 
> While also not a huge fan on the Last Word, they are good indicators when properly maintained and used, and would be better for what you are doing that the larger dial. Give it a try. Remember to always rotate the chuck the same direction during testing. Skip the back plunger indicator.


Thanks Tony,
I also have a B & S best test dial indicator. 
Thanks 
jon


----------



## ome (Oct 12, 2013)

Bill Gruby said:


> This is my recommendation for a Dial Test Indicator. Brown & Sharpe BesTest  .030 range by .0005. Black and White 1 1/2 inch face.
> 
> "Billy G"


I have a best test indicator i believe to be with those specs, but i have no effective means of putting that inficator on the generic mag base, the bars are wAy to wide 

what is the alternative to a mag base, can i use a chuck in my tailstock or place it in my quick hange tool holder, which will go up to 1/2" by 1/2" max. 
Thanks

jon


----------



## Bill Gruby (Oct 12, 2013)

Mine is a dovetail type mount. I have the adaptor that has the short round post on it. I also have a bar to mount it in the tool post. The tool post mount is the easiest. That would be my suggestion. You are going to be amazed at how much easier it will be to dial it in.

 "Billy G"


----------



## ome (Oct 13, 2013)

Bill Gruby said:


> Mine is a dovetail type mount. I have the adaptor that has the short round post on it. I also have a bar to mount it in the tool post. The tool post mount is the easiest. That would be my suggestion. You are going to be amazed at how much easier it will be to dial it in.
> 
> "Billy G"


Thanks alot Bill, this is going to make a big difference, I can feel it.  
Jon


----------



## ome (Oct 13, 2013)

ome said:


> Thanks alot Bill, this is going to make a big difference, I can feel it.
> Jon


Hi everyone,i
oh well, all 4 of my indicators and test dial indicators are all .001 resolution. 
I will order a B & S higher precision unless too much, then i will get another indicator with higher precision. 
Starrett or mituyoto indi ator for mag base?
any opinions appreciated
thanks
jon


----------



## Bill Gruby (Oct 13, 2013)

Get all of this with it. Most  comes with it, just the adapter for the mag base in the foreground came separate. I don't have the adapter number but the gage set is, 599-7031-5  EDP 51734.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Bill Gruby (Oct 13, 2013)

Tony Wells said:


> I've never been a great fan of those back plunger indicators. They have their place, but it isn't where you are working, IMO. A dial test indicator would be much better to see smaller movements. That's what they are made for and why they have such little travel compared to the run of the mill 1.000 AGD group2 indicators, although indicators in that style are made in much finer resolution/graduation than 0.001.
> 
> While also not a huge fan on the Last Word, they are good indicators when properly maintained and used, and would be better for what you are doing that the larger dial. Give it a try. Remember to always rotate the chuck the same direction during testing. Skip the back plunger indicator.




 The back plunger gage is more for Bench Center use. I have a Lufkin set and that is the only time I use it. I check crankshafts for out of round.

 "Billy G"


----------



## Chuck K (Oct 13, 2013)

What Bill said about the tool post mount is good advice.  Especially when you drop some serious cash on a test indicator.  I have had a problem bumping them into the part when I use a mag base.  I found a thread somewhere...might have been here, about making a toolpost holder for measuring tapers.  I would like to give credit to the original builder that came up with the idea but my memory doesn't allow.  Anyway, here's the one I made from his plans.  It takes all the guesswork out of finding the high point on a taper. The slide has a spring under it to hold it tight against the piece.  When I'm dialing in a part, I start with my .001 indicator to get it close and then finish with the .0005.  Here's the pics:


----------



## ome (Oct 13, 2013)

Bill Gruby said:


> Get all of this with it. Most  comes with it, just the adapter for the mag base in the foreground came separate. I don't have the adapter number but the gage set is, 599-7031-5  EDP 51734.
> 
> "Billy G"


Thanks Bill,
is that an B & S number. 
Enco has the indi idual white or black best test indicator. 
They also sell a set for just a bit more. Set is whitr faced only. Black faced is $152. And white is 185. 
190. And a little more or less for the bla l faced. It comes w/ one carbide tip: .080" dia; one 1/2" long x 1/4" dia extension with dovetail; one  contact point wrench, fitted case, cert of accuracy. 
What are the exact names of what else i need to order?

enco has 5 standard acces.  From18.  - 48.  And 3 more additional access from 18  - 22.  Any help so i do not order wrong accessories would be helpful, do i need another mag base or can i use the one from cheap indicator?
thankss
jon


----------



## Bill Gruby (Oct 13, 2013)

Yes, that's the B&S number right off the box. I like the black face because it is easier for me to see. The Enco is a good one also. The mag base you have is fine as long as it can hold rigidity. On there .0005 gages it is extremely important. The slightest movement shows up big time.

 "Billy G"


----------



## ome (Oct 13, 2013)

Hi Bill,
thanks again. I was concerned about the b and s indicator not fitting the mag base and bars because of larger diameter does not fit any of my small dial test indicators. 
Am i better off getting a new mag base and buy certain accessories to make it fit. 
A.Rectangular bar3/16 thick x 5/16 high x 3"long w/ .220" diam stud. 18.70
B.Swivel support short- 3/8" diam x 1" long. 39.95
C.angle attachment; 3/8" hole x 3/8" diam x 1" long 39.95
D.Extension with dovetail .250" diam x 1/2" long 14.45
E. Carbide ball point .040" diam x 1/2" long 44.88
F. Rectangular bar 1/4" thick x 1/2" high x 3" long with .220"diam stud 18.48
G. Swivel support(long) 3/8" diam x 3-5/8" shank. 42.50
H. Universal dovetail attachment. Chrome plated. 1/4" diam x 2-1/2" long( to center of ball) 26.40
These are all the listed accessories for best test dial indicator by B & S
Thanks bill
jon


----------



## Bill Gruby (Oct 13, 2013)

This is my dovetail swivel adaptor. Large hole is standard .375. Small hole is .250. This is a B&S unit, I do not have the number. The other things on your list will probably be needed at some point. Get what comes with the indicator ant the swivel adpt. below for now. The rest will come as you find the need.

 "Billy G"


----------



## epanzella (Oct 13, 2013)

I grabbed a piece of 5/8 stock and tapped the end for my DI. I had to mill a small notch for clearance. I have a dedicated tool holder for it and it's a big help at least until I can grow a third hand.


----------



## ome (Oct 13, 2013)

epanzella said:


> I grabbed a piece of 5/8 stock and tapped the end for my DI. I had to mill a small notch for clearance. I have a dedicated tool holder for it and it's a big help at least until I can grow a third hand.


Thanks for the advice, all of you guys have been great, even though i am a total nube!
thanks,
jon


----------



## Tony Wells (Oct 14, 2013)

None of us was born knowing much, Jon. It's a privilege to find someone these days willing to ask questions about these things and actually want and need the answers. Believe me, we enjoy helping people learn about this stuff. Those of us that have been around it all our lives are watching sadly as people lose interest in industry in general.....so we don't mind the questions at all. We're glad you are here asking them, and you should be looking forward to when you will be helping others learn what you have. That's the way this works. We all were "noobs" at one point. All of us asked "dumb" questions....but we were smart enough to ask, and then to listen and learn. We all made mistakes, and again learned from it.


----------



## ome (Oct 14, 2013)

[SUB]Thanks Tony , I appreciate your positive response. 

Regards,
Jon [/SUB]


----------



## ome (Oct 17, 2013)

Hi everyone, just ordered B & S .0005resolution from enco. 
Will try to get set up right and rigid, using the tool holder. 
Let you know when i am set up
thanks again ,
jon


----------

