# That hurt !



## tertiaryjim (Feb 22, 2018)

Finally finished, sorta, scraping in my cheapo mill/drill.
Worked on it most days for six weeks which is a ridiculos amount of time but with perhaps the exception of the table top which was out only a little
over two thou. out every other surface was at least four thou. out and most much worse. No two surfaces were parallel, square,
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
 flat or even close to reasonable.
Had to do all of it by hand scraping.
The top pics are of a test bar to check how acuratly it would machine its length. As you can see it required a lot of over-extension of the table to machine this 
almost 18" bar.  I scaped one side to have a flat surface to rest on and measure from and moved the clamps to keep then within a few inches of the cutting tool.
The last two inches of the bar ( both ends ) showed respectively -.0001" and -0.0002 " sag.  I had to stop and sit down in the middle of the bar which allowed the spindle bearings to cool and there was a short area there which was +0.0002".
I attribute the sag to not having the gibs properly scraped. They give me a hard time.
The spindle bearings could be damaged due to all the extra pounding they've taken with the saddle and table dancing around.




This 6" X 12.75" plate was machined on all four edges to check for square and how straight the edges would be.
One corner checked true without any error or it was smaller than I could detect. The opposing corner was out 0.0001" and all edges were flat within 0.0001".
Again, The gibs are hard to do.  This picture is of the second time I preformed this test, which it failed. On the third test I set the plate on steel bars to help reduce any clamping errors. The only adjustment I made before the last test was to adjust "scrape" the gibs.
This 6.3" X 12.5" machine now has 6.7" and 19.3" travel. One must be careful when the table is over-extended but that area is usable.
The factory nuts were trashed and new ones constructed which have less than 0.003" backlash. I'm sure they can be better adjusted.
Besides the extra "reach", better finish, and incredibly improved acuracy, tooling should last longer without the saddle and table pretending to be at a rodeo.
Am fitting covers for the ways and considering a DRO.


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## cathead (Feb 22, 2018)

Nice work!


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## LEEQ (Feb 22, 2018)

Congrats on getting that cool project done. It's amazing at what can be accomplished by hand.


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## Eddyde (Feb 22, 2018)

Excellent work! Go for the DRO, you'll never regret it.


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## tertiaryjim (Feb 23, 2018)

Thank you all for the likes and kind words. It's a good feeling to finish a project.
Those pesky gibs and the flaking were hard. Got the gibs in close but don't think I'll ever learn to do good flaking except on a nice easy to reach 
surface. Hands and wrists just don't like it.
Created some digs and scratches but just couldn't see re-scraping the whole surface/surfaces. Just stoned them and continued.
Thats a nasty thing to say but I'm about outta ump.
Also flaked the lathe cross-slide and compound. I had put oil grooves in all dovetails of both machines .
Got a few nice flake patterns but wherever it was out of position, well, I don't really think you could call it flaking but it will hold oil.

Noticed that I said the edges were within one tent but I have realized that I didn't run a indicator over them and only checked/compared the top and bottom of the four edges. They could belly out and have caused measuring errors. Will check on that.
Been reading other posts about dro's. Might spring to do the lathe and mill with glass scales.
Its really great to have rigid machine components. Parting on  the lathe is now fast and easy.

Now I gotta make a few tools so I can make tools to complete the tool grinder, shaper, and some other tools so I can just maybe 
get to the projects I would like to do but can't even remember cause I'm working on so many machines and tools needed to do all those other 
projects. 
If any of that makes sense to you, I offer my condolence. 
Also, I will be relying on you for ideas and information to build some tools............................................


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## FOMOGO (Feb 23, 2018)

Makes perfect sense to me, and I'm sure to many others here. Nice work. Mike


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## Sblack (Mar 8, 2018)

You scraped 4 thou out of true?!? Wow! You've been busy!  Hats off to your perseverance.  Was this your first experience? Do you see a difference in the cytting performance i.e. les chatter? Also, if you had to do it again, would it take just as long because of all the material you had to remove or would the learning curve make it quicker? Thanks for posting.


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## tertiaryjim (Mar 8, 2018)

Most of the surfaces were out more than 0.004".  Cheap china machine.
I had scraped in a 13-36 lathe and done work on my grinder as well as some work on a 7" shaper before I started on the mill.
It had no rigidity and even with the gibbs really tight it vibrated and shook at both top and bottom dovetails.
The table travel described an arc and didn't follow a straight line.
There is now a "great" increase in rigidity and it will machine square corners as well as flat surfaces.
Finnish has improved  and I'm sure cutting tools will last longer.
With the experience I already had there was still a learning curve. I could do it faster now but with arthritis my hands and wrists don't like scraping.
I have a problem keeping the tool angle and getting good depth. Much of my scraping is shallow or flatter than ideal.
Still, it is flat and square and so much better than the machine was produced with and the travel is nice throughout it's range.
With the lathe and mill both preforming so much better , I can use them to machine surfaces of the shaper and power hacksaw and build indicator jigs to better measure my work as well as tools to help finish my grinder.


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## Sblack (Apr 6, 2018)

The Chinese mfgs don't season their castings by heat treating or just letting them age. They cast them and machine them and that's it. Then  a year later you get your machine and it is made up of banana shaped parts. I hope they have stabilized and it stays true. That was a herculean effort to be sure.


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## petertha (Apr 6, 2018)

Impressive. I'd like to hear a little bit about the tools you used for this project.


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## tertiaryjim (Apr 6, 2018)

Sblack     You are so right!     A bit it over a year after scraping in the cross-slide I tore it down to make some improvements for better oil penetration into the dovetails and hand flake it. 
While I had it apart I put it on the surface plate. It was out and I had to re-scrape that and the compound.
I'm certain that everything was within a tenth or less before.

The carriage bottom was done while I was feeling crappy and I really made a poor job of it. Also, that was before working over the mill so I had no way to machine it, which every part of that machine really should have been. Had to remove a lot of material by hand.
After catching up on a few other projects I'll tear it down and machine the bottom of the carriage and scrape it again.

Will probably need to make a couple tools so I don't screw it up this time.
The tools I'm using are very crude and ugly, only partly finished, cheap carbide on crappy home made handles without proper wood ends.
Hey, I kept thinking I'd just do one more part and maybe never scrape again. Dumb Huh!
I started out doing the compound with a parting tool and just tape on the end I held.

The lathe carriage travels well now and is rigid enough that I've parted aluminum1.5 inches DOC and mild steel, 1018, 1 inch DOC without any chatter or problems.
It just cut through making nice curls. Couldn't part at all before scraping. Prior to scraping the lathe and mill, oil would just poor through the dovetails.
Now Ive had to put oil grooves in them and provide a path for air to escape or the oil can would explode from the pressure of trying to pump oil under the lathe carriage.

petertha    I really must apologize to everyone for not posting more of my progress and HuHum, "minor" errors.
Now that I'm feeling better I'll run down my pictures and share more.


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## tertiaryjim (Apr 14, 2018)

With so much time lost to illness and so little accomplished I have been trying to get machinery in usable condition and not recording my efforts well or posting much.
So, will start with my first efforts, the Lathe, and move through differing machines I'm working on.



	

		
			
		

		
	
This is just a simple angle plate, very crude, used to cut the gibs. The brass shim on the right can be switched for any angle. While I was at it I made gibs for the mill. Brass worked best for me. Those I tried to make from steel tended to curl badly, even with small skim cuts. Didn't try cast iron.



	

		
			
		

		
	
Here it is in use. Clamp as required. I tried clamping with the bow up. Take that down and then hit the other side.



	

		
			
		

		
	
The mill table was well cleaned and chips contained for recovery. This is cutting the final non working edges of the gibs.



	

		
			
		

		
	
To get the headstock level to the ways a pile of shims was needed.



	

		
			
		

		
	
I spread blue on a small surface plate using a butter knife and this is the contact area the headstock sits on. The indicator, upper right, rides on the carriage and allowed me to profile the error and to keep the surface level to the ways as I scraped.



	

		
			
		

		
	
This is the bottom of the headstock. At least it's better than the bed. To keep the headstock aligned to the ways I measured from the bottom of the bearing seats to the headstock bottom as I scraped.


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## tertiaryjim (Apr 14, 2018)

Tailstock....




	

		
			
		

		
	
the tailstock is locked in position with the spindle retracted and indicator readings taken at 0, 90, 180, and 270 deg.  Then extended and checked again. This tells me if its pointed left, right, up or down in relation to the bed and the elevation difference to the headstock.
It was off and needed to be scraped in.



	

		
			
		

		
	
Which was a shame as this blued better than any other part of the machine. Not rite, just better.


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## tertiaryjim (Apr 29, 2018)

Sblack
Got to admit I was in error.  Remembered that the reason I had to re-scrape those lathe components was because I created a convex surface over the length of the slides through poor blueing practices. That was a couple years ago and I only remembered when dealing with the new lathe.

petertha
The first scraping I did was for the compound of the 13-36 lathe. It was the only thing that would fit on the small surface plate I had.
I just used a parting tool with tape on one end to protect my hands. 
After getting a larger surface plate I made up a clamp to hold a rectangular piece of carbide on the end of some 1/4" x 1" hot rolled.
This worked OK and I still use it though it lacks flexability. Also made a pull scraper though its too big to get into small areas.
Used some 0.090" x 1" material for a scraper that I can bend to help reach difficult areas.
Nothing fancy or expensive but they work though the manufactured ones are far better.
There are those difficult to reach areas that people build special tools to reach into.
Many of the cheaply produced China machines and those tired old war horses need to be scraped. Even a amateur with low quality tooling, like myself, can bring them up to standards and make em work like champs.
I've made a lot of mistakes and am still correcting some of them but the machines I've worked on are better than when they were produced.


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## Winegrower (Dec 16, 2018)

I am now so depressed that my Logan and my Bridgeport are not within 0.0001.   I am sure that is why some of my projects don’t ever get done.


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## petertha (Dec 16, 2018)

tertiaryjim, again, nice work.

Regarding your lathe, how did the underside of the carriage saddle look? I have a Taiwan 14x40 which cuts pretty accurate. Nice shiny induction hardened V's & flats. But seeing the saddle underside was a rude shock. They apparently let the 12 year old have his way with it. I am so surprised it actually runs the way it does. I guess if I ever do a Moglice job on it, it will provide real good roughened adhesion surface 

Regarding your mill, my ex RF-45 mill had the table lock screws going directly against the (cast iron) gib strips. If yours is the same I would recommend re-evaluating this. A) the screws make a whole bunch of bite marks down the gib B) the screw can impart a motion to the table just by attempting to lock. For your example your DRO is 0.000", lock the table & now its 0.002", therefore un-screw loosen, adjust, fiddle fart around... I machined little contact shoes that were bevelled to the dovetail angle, then the tightening screw had a steel bearing ball Loctite'd to the end. Much better locking result.


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## tertiaryjim (Dec 24, 2018)

Winegrower- Don't know why you  would feel depressed. Just put together some tools, tap a barrel of wine n spend your years gittin it done.
I just hope I can finish scraping and correcting all my errors so the machines will be usable for the next generation.
It would be nice to get em all done so I can use them.

petertha- The carriage V-way, along with  weight of the apron and downward pull from the feed screws held the carriage something like 12 thou. above the flat way. When load forced it down it only contacted on three small points. That includes two points on the V-groove. Had to role the V-groove and do some adjusting of the feed screws. Removed enough material to keep the screws from pulling it down or binding at either end of travel.
Scraping it in, really had a hard time on the V-groove and cant say I'm proud of it. Just didnt have the tooling to reach  some of it and I wasn't feeling too well.

I used the ways as my master but found I left a couple of burrs and had to do some touchup. That was OK as it took three or four tries to get it squared to the ways. I wanted it to cut concave about 0.0002"/ft when facing and it gave me a chance to make some of my chicken scratches look a bit better. Not that anyone will see them.


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## petertha (Dec 24, 2018)

That's very interesting to know now that you have quantified the sad before state. 

So just wondering out loud, would this not be a good application for something like Moglice? We are trusting the ways (acts as the male 'mold'). A few contact points on the saddle hilltops plus the sh*tty rough surface should provide the perfect environment for epoxy, no? It would be no substitute for fundamental misalignment & out of squareness, but if that aspect was +/- OK....?
I've seen a couple machine retrofits where this was more the case & seems like it turned out well. I don't understand Turcite well enough but seems like a similar end result? I think new machines are coming that way which I can only assume is an acceptable method to mitigate expensive labor with skilled scraping?


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 24, 2018)

I'm encouraged by your work . I call my RF-45 the Drama Queen, it's time to fix. How did you go about fixing your dovetails.


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## tertiaryjim (Dec 24, 2018)

petertha - Turcite would have worked well to build up the bottom of the flat slide but, at that time I had no experience with it and the whole saddle needed to be lowered to prevent binding of the feed screws. So it worked out well.
I have since applied turcite to the table of my grinder but have yet to scrape it flat. Thats a new experience.

Downwindtracke - The base ways, as found,  were rough machined in two different setups and then touched up with a grinder. They were neither square nor parallel. The 60deg slides had to be adjusted 2 or 3 thousanths.  The flats had to be adjusted as much as six thousanths.

I used a sanding disk on my 4.5 inch grinder to rough em in. Then scraped them flat and parallel.
A indicator mounted in the spindle was spun to catch two points on each flat. I used a 1x2x3 block sitting on the flat to measure to.
This way I could scrape till the indicator read zero at the four points and the saddle which had been scraped to the surface plate became my master to finish up the flats.

The 60deg slides were scraped true using my home made straight edge. Its a bit unstable and I had to keep touching it up as well.
I've still not made a proper indicator setup to measure the dovetails and had to use a twelve inch dial caliper.
Not the best way to do it but I felt certain I got them within less than 0.0002" parallel.
The table had to move 90deg to the saddle but on assembly it was out about 0.0004"/ft. I had to tear it down three times to touch it up.
Really not so bad as nothing on the machine was flat or true to measure to.

I just built up from there using the surface plate to true any surface that would sit on it.  Those surfaces became a master for the mating parts.
It was a lot of work !!
My flaking of the flats is ugly but serviceable.  The 60deg dovetails of the base were a problem for me. I had to leave some ugly scratches.
The table top was out a bit over two thousanths. That was a lot of surface area to scrape but it then became a surface to measure it's dovetail flats to so they were true.
Well, I just tried to take it one step at a time and where it wasn't rite I tore it down and made adjustments.
It's now very rigid and true but after putting some time on it I will tear it down and probably find some high spots to adjust.
I suggest doing some reading and make certain you understand the relationship of the components before starting.
You have to create flat and true surfaces to measure or mate to each mating component.
And, UUH make that dovetail measuring devise before tearing it down.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Jan 4, 2019)

Thanks for the explanation of how you did it,  When you say you used a homemade straight edge and dovetail measuring device, what were they like, and how did you make them? Were you using a tube of  Prussian Blue for marking. 

I admire you persistence.


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## tertiaryjim (Jan 5, 2019)

Downwindtracke
Thanks for the kind comment.
My straight edge was machined and scraped from a piece of 1" x 2" x 26"long durabar.
Here's a pic of the setup to machine the 60deg angle.
This was done before scraping in the mill/drill and a lot of material had to be scraped to get it even close.


This next pic shows some scraping. The lightening holes can be seen.


Prussian blue was used but I've since started using Canode.
Still haven't made the dovetail measuring tool.
I'ts simply a holder that will seat into the dovetail on one side and allow a indicator to read to the opposing dovetail.
Check out some yutube vidios, measuring dovetails or scraping dovetails.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Jan 5, 2019)

I can see how difficult it would be not having a true surface. You have to measure to something. Durabar is lively, eh. For measuring the dovetail wear, I'm lucky, I found a 6-12" Lufkin on Seattle CL . I guess it was quite a challenge for the old fellow to box it and mail it.  There is a time when simple things get to be difficult. When I use it, I'll say a thank you.


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