# Bolt it down dilemma...



## jwmay (Nov 20, 2021)

So how many of you have your Atlas bolted down solid?

I haven't done it yet. It turns accurately, but I can't get a center hole true to the axis. It always ends up crooked when I drill it. I figure this is because something is deflecting. So yes, even if I'm wrong, I know it needs done.
Below you see how the lathe sits. I'm having some trouble coming up with a flexible solution. The toolbox is at the perfect height. The lathe is exactly where I want it for height too. The toolbox is flexy. The concrete is not level. I want it to stay mobile. Ideas? I have a welded steel bench that formerly held the lathe, but its not mobile and has limited storage. Frank Hoose made it work with this toolbox and his PM machine.  But I don't think the Atlas has the strength to sit where I've put it. Or... is this crooked center hole problem coming from something else? The tailstock is centered to within .003". That seems to be the best I can do.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 20, 2021)

I would say if it turns accurately you are very lucky and your hole drilling problem lies elsewhere.


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## RJSakowski (Nov 20, 2021)

I would look for a twist in the tailstock.  Check by measuring a pin with the quill retracted and again at full extension.  The numbers should be the same.  Erros can arise from a variety of sources; wear in the tailstock or ways, wear in the quill, or angular runout of the MT shank or the chuck.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 20, 2021)

RJSakowski said:


> I would look for a twist in the tailstock.  Check by measuring a pin with the quill retracted and again at full extension.  The numbers should be the same.  Erros can arise from a variety of sources; wear in the tailstock or ways, wear in the quill, or angular runout of the MT shank or the chuck.


Not to mention the grind of the drill point. I would start with the simplest possible causes and work my way up the chain. The OP didn't state what size(s) hole, material, how deep or how far of center. I've seen 1/4" holes that were a full diameter off center in 4" depth due to bad drill grind.


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## jwmay (Nov 20, 2021)

I agree that I am very lucky. Thanks fellahs.


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## wa5cab (Nov 20, 2021)

Your first error is that the lathe stand is not anchored.  And your second is that the lathe is not leveled and anchored.  Without doing those two things, there is no point in the rest of us spending time on your problem.  The Atlas lathes are not heavy enough in themselves to substitute for this.  The way in which to do it is explained many places on the site.

After properly rough-leveling and anchoring the stand and leveling and anchoring the lathe, report how far off of the headstock or  spindle center-line the tailstock is.  Front-to-back errors are easily adjustable to zero.  Vertical and angular errors are another matter.


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## jwmay (Nov 20, 2021)

jwmay said:


> The toolbox is at the perfect height. The lathe is exactly where I want it for height too. The toolbox is flexy. The concrete is not level. I want it to stay mobile. Ideas?


 This is actually what I wanted help with. I only mentioned the problem because I thought it's related.


jwmay said:


> I have a welded steel bench that formerly held the lathe, but its not mobile and has limited storage.


 Putting it on this bench would solve the problem. Oak top, 3/8 angle iron frame, with anchor points on the feet.
Point is it'd be too short, not mobile,  have not enough storage.
Anyways thanks to all. I was just fishing for an idea for something simple. I don't actually need any help. I know what needs done. Sorry for wasting your time.


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## NC Rick (Nov 20, 2021)

My 10” Delta was only bolted to the cabinet.  I would think bolted to some kind of toolbox or cart would be good.  It could be on casters.  Just because you don’t have your lathe bolted and grouted to a 10” slab with pillars driven to the bedrock shouldn’t stop you from making things.  With a good drill bit (ground well) there is going to be run out or bend.  Part of the game.  We don’t want to use carbide stub length drills for every hole right?  Do you use anything as a spot drill?  A H.S. steel spot drill, say a quarter inch size, isn’t expensive. Get one that matches the normal point angle of your jobber drills (mine are all mostly 118 degrees) and just make a cone, under the full diameter of the spot drill and see if you can’t drill a nice hole with that.  FWIW I totally screwed up a pretty nice keyless chuck (made in Poland) by using it with taps and end-mills in my lathe.  Putting a drill in that chuck makes it point in all kinds of directions off center but with a spot drill it still starts on center but makes holes much bigger than the drill size and drags bad on pull out.  Your question and what you are doing is great.


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## cross thread (Nov 20, 2021)

I had a table saw that sat on a frame , you stepped on a lever and that would lower and lock the front two wheels to the ground . The back two wheels were already on the ground . You could get a set up like this to work on the steel bench and then have a jack at each corner to get level . To solve the anchor bit install female threaded holes into the concrete and anchor points on the bench to bolt it down .
I bought the frame from Rockler . There are some other roller frames at the bottom of this add . https://www.rockler.com/bora-port-a-mate-pm-1100-plywood-mobile-base-kit
Mark .


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## mickri (Nov 20, 2021)

What you want to achieve is to eliminate any twist in the bed.  The bed does not have to be level.  It just can't be twisted.  Definitely bolt the lathe to the bench.  Then use shims to take out any twist in the bed.  Depending the on accuracy you need it is probably ok to bolt it to the tool box it is currently on.  The plywood that you have the lathe sitting on will most likely crush over time.  The plywood does add stiffness to the top of the tool box.  I would keep the plywood for the extra stiffness.   Looks like you are using two pieces of plywood.  You should use one piece of plywood that covers the entire top of the tool box.

The easiest way to adjust the bed in your set up is to have one nut with a big thick washer that holds the plywood to the tool box.  Then use another nut with a big thick washer that the lathe sits on to adjust the bed.  Once you get the twist out use a third nut to hold the lathe in place.


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## Bi11Hudson (Nov 21, 2021)

I use a Craftsman 12X36 (101.27440), basically an Atlas machine. I mounted the machine to a heavy wall box tube and trued it to the tubing. Then mounted the tubing to a chip pan and a homemade stand. The machine lifted one foot off the floor and was shimmed. It isn't "level" but is true to the tubing. The term is a "strongback" from my time on ships. An Atlas is a fairly light weight machine, as such go. The strongback provides a rigid, and quite stable, mounting point. Even though the stand is less so. My solution, but it does what its' supposed to do.

.


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## jwmay (Nov 21, 2021)

mickri said:


> The plywood that you have the lathe sitting on


That's actually a laminated hardwood top. It's not that thick though.


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## jwmay (Nov 21, 2021)

Bi11Hudson said:


> I mounted the machine to a heavy wall box tube and trued it to the tubing. Then mounted the tubing to a chip pan and a homemade stand.


 I could do that, and maybe a frame under the toolbox like this picture I stole from the internet. This came from the PM website, and was built for a milling machine. I assume it's ok to show it here. I DID NOT make it, but may try to copy it. Mine will be uglier and less square of course.


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## kcoffield (Nov 21, 2021)

My machine isn't anchored to the floor but it is anchored to a very sturdy and heavily weighted stand on leveling feet. With lathe and everything in the drawers it's at least 800lbs. No arguing that anchored to floor is better because inevitably there will be a lifting force on one corner of the bed and thus one of the feet of the stand. IMO, and in practice, if you have a heavy weighted stand, an Atlas lathe will not further benefit from being anchored because it isn't capable of a heavy enough cut. Grind sharp tools and cut accordingly within the limits of your machine.

IMO, if you want your lathe rolling on that toolbox, and want the best possible rigidity and performance, you need to make a very stiff sub base between the lathe and rolling cabinet. A skinned weldment made form channel and sheet like a cored closet door say 2-4" thick. It doesn't have to be perfectly flat, because you're going to level the lathe on it anyway. You could incorporate leveling features and even chip tray......how far are you willing to go for the performance and mobility you desire?

Best,
Kelly


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## Larry$ (Nov 21, 2021)

As a woodworker I can't resist adding one thought: Wood moves! Any change in moisture content will change its size, flatness etc. Plywood commonly has a lot of stresses built in. Depending on your idea of flat it may be great or a potato chip. We avoid it in our manufacturing plant because it is so damned unstable. MDF also has built in stresses from the heat pressing but much less than plywood. It usually starts out flatter but if one side is exposed to more water vapor than the other it will potato chip! And it is subject to a lot of volumetric change with moisture. Sealing it with a water resistant finish or plastic coating helps a lot. Same for particle board. There is a plywood made with a water proof resin (phenolic?) that is quite stable, expensive, and used for highway billboards. You might find a sign shop selling or giving away used panels from their billboards. Great stuff! All wood products will be spongy to some extent.


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## akjeff (Nov 21, 2021)

My Craftsman/Atlas 12x36 was on the factory cabinet with the under mount motor. I leveled the cabinet and anchored it to the concrete floor. Then shimmed/leveled the lathe to the cabinet. It both cut and drilled pretty darn straight. I also filled the open space in the cabinet with the biggest toolbox that would fit in it, and filled it with all the heavy stuff I had for the lathe to add as much mass to the whole thing as possible.


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## wa5cab (Nov 21, 2021)

A lathe or any other machine tool that is operated on casters is unfortunately an accident waiting to happen.  If the steel stand that came with the lathe is too short or lacks storage space or if there is any other reason why it isn't suitable, then what you can do is to add some sort of lifting mechanism to the cabinet that you prefer that will lift the castors clear of the floor or slab when the lathe is moved out to wherever you normally use it.  The lifting mechanism would be adjusted to level the surface that the lathe sits on to the accuracy of a decent carpenter;s level.  The the bed should be shimmed to take out any twist to the accuracy of a machinist's level.  Several companies make and sell castor sets with adjustable legs that lift the stand clear of the castors for operating.  Shopsmith is another possible source.

But the one thing that will eventually maim or kill you is to operate the lathe while it is still sitting on wheels and free to move.


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## jwmay (Nov 22, 2021)

kcoffield said:


> You could incorporate leveling features and even chip tray......how far are you willing to go for the performance and mobility you desire?


Well probably not very far. I like standing in front of a machine and running the handwheels. I'm not real big on this sort of work. But I can do it. I won't...probably.
I mentioned Frank Hoose earlier. He has a 1000 pound machine on one of these boxes. He blocked it up with 4x4's. He made 4 wedges with threaded rod to pull the two halves together. Instant leveling feet.  Viola. That's more my speed. Lol

But I'm liking this sub base idea. I'll have to think on it. Thanks!


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## JPMacG (Nov 22, 2021)

I have a tool chest with several sheets of plywood glued and screwed together for the top surface.  The original castors were very wobbly so I replaced them with C channel and hockey puck feet with adjusting screws.  It was then impossible to move, so I added deployable castors.  The lathe is very stable once the hockey pucks are adjusted.  Of course, any time it is moved I need to re-level it (both the feet and the bed shims), so I avoid moving it unless there is a pressing reason.


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## NC Rick (Nov 22, 2021)

wa5cab said:


> A lathe or any other machine tool that is operated on casters is unfortunately an accident waiting to happen.  If the steel stand that came with the lathe is too short or lacks storage space or if there is any other reason why it isn't suitable, then what you can do is to add some sort of lifting mechanism to the cabinet that you prefer that will lift the castors clear of the floor or slab when the lathe is moved out to wherever you normally use it.  The lifting mechanism would be adjusted to level the surface that the lathe sits on to the accuracy of a decent carpenter;s level.  The the bed should be shimmed to take out any twist to the accuracy of a machinist's level.  Several companies make and sell castor sets with adjustable legs that lift the stand clear of the castors for operating.  Shopsmith is another possible source.
> 
> But the one thing that will eventually maim or kill you is to operate the lathe while it is still sitting on wheels and free to move.


That is a valid and important consideration I failed to think of.  I’m sorry I brought up casters and lathes.  on my welding bench, I installed heavy casters along with a set of mach leveling feet which need to be raised with wrenches to allow for the casters to contact the ground. It isn’t super convenient but serves my needs.
kinda 205’d by @JPMacG .
a couple lengths of square tubing or “C”- channel could be the top.  I like the idea of a bolt together or weldment.
the Husky T.B. Conversion is really nice work.


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## Janderso (Nov 22, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> I would start with the simplest possible causes and work my way up the chain


Now that is good advice. Could be used for a variety of issues in life.


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## Bi11Hudson (Nov 22, 2021)

For what its' worth, the original OEM stand for a Craftsman 12 inch machine such as mine was configured as a "bench" mounted lathe. The Atlas version may well have been heavier. I've never seen one. . . The C'man version had cast steel legs with a wide span fore and aft, and spanned with a good 2X8 wooden beam. It was better wood than "construction lumber", even in its' day.(early '50s) I don't know if such wood is available today (I doubt it) but could be cobbled together from Oak or Maple. There was no "sway bracing", no diagonals. Just a shelf about 8 inches above the floor, another 2X8. The only resistance to longitudinal movement was several 3/8 carriage bolts. Since several bed lengths were available, it was likely the cheapest to manufacture. The castings I had did have an Atlas casting numbers. The same stand (legs) were sold with the Atlas milling machine and shaper. So I figure that Atlas had a similar stand on their lathe.

Being the overbearing rigidity nut that I am, even my 3/8 bench mount drill press has a stronger frame then the OEM C'man lathe stand. A couple of 2X6 channel irons, back to back, may have been better than the box tube I used. But the box tube was at hand and the channel would have cost $$$. Which, at the time, I didn't have. I did provide for sway bracing. Merely straps, bolted on under slight tension in an "X" configuration. Not the best maybe, but again, what I had at the time.

There was no consideration with the OEM stands, nor on my homebrew stand, for rollers/wheels. Being able to move a lathe would have some advantages, I'm sure. Especially in tight quarters. But at a loss of some accuracy and stability. Having been to sea for several years, I am well aware of how things move when the ship moves. And a ship does move, despite what one would think of a steel frame and hull. In a wooden building ashore, I didn't see any advantage to bolting my lathe to the floor. But the wide span of the feet, much wider than the OEM stand, are shimmed to almost level. I would advise at least that much, that the machine could be lifted as one piece and stay true to the frame. Or, to rephrase, the stand remaining true to the lathe. The truth of the lathe itself is what really matters.

.


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## jwmay (Nov 23, 2021)

I'm working on getting some used c channel. I think that Jpmac has  given me pretty much exactly what I was fishing for. Same machine, same tool box.  I hate reinventing wheels! Thanks to all for your thoughts and ideas!


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## cross thread (Nov 25, 2021)




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## wa5cab (Nov 27, 2021)

Correction to part of my comment about how the ShopSmith system actually works. The lifting mechanism lowers the castors, lifting the adjustable leveling feet clear of the deck or floor.  If you use this general method, of course, the lathe or mill must be lowered in the exact same spot in order for it to still be level.  Which restricts you to always operating it in the exact same location.  That may or may not be a problem.  Otherwise, each time that you move it, you will have to spend the time to go through the leveling procedure.  But it would still be quicker (although no more effective) than using the adjustment feature to lift the castors clear of the floor.


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## jwmay (Nov 27, 2021)

I've waffled back and forth on this for a few days now. For now, it's sitting on Maple 3x4's with leveling feet. So, the safety aspect is covered. But it's not what I want. It's just what's handy at the moment.


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## wa5cab (Nov 27, 2021)

FWIW, the two legs and two boards were sold as an option.  The only factory drawing of the stand that we have is of Atlas 10-442 for the top board originally dated in 1935 and revised in 1946.  There were originally four lengths made, each 3" longer than the nominal bed length (of 36", 42", 48" and 54". The material called for on the drawing is just "Soft Clear Wood".  I would guess that at the time, that could have meant Maple.  The other two dimensions are 9" and 1-5/8".  So a 2 x 10 S4S.  The motor was not mounted to the board but sat on a motor mounting bracket that was mount on the rear of the countershaft bracket..  The lathe and board were attached to the legs by the same four bolts.  The shelf board was probably the same except that the four mounting bolt holes must have been in slightly different locations.  Otherwise, the shelf would have been called out on the top board drawing.  There is a PDF of the top board drawing in the Atlas Lathe Drawings folder in Downloads.


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