# I Weep For The Future....



## great white (Mar 18, 2015)

I bet he doesn't even realize how close he came to becoming at best an amputee, at worst complete hamburger......


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## Andre (Mar 18, 2015)

Seen that one, makes me cringe, What makes it worse is that it's a gear head lathe on low gear!


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## itsme_Bernie (Mar 18, 2015)

He is absolutely lucky he had a friend who was so absolutely quick with that Stop button or he would absolutely have no leg left.  Absolutely idiot!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Bill C. (Mar 19, 2015)

Not sure why he was on the wrong side to begin with.  One lucky dude.


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## 4GSR (Mar 19, 2015)

Seen this one too!

He now know's how much torque/power that 3 HP motor puts out!  Or 2 HP....


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## RJSakowski (Mar 19, 2015)

So why was this being filmed?  Making a safety video?


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## great white (Mar 20, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> So why was this being filmed?  Making a safety video?


Doubtful. Just a couple airheads being stupid and/or trying to show off.

Kids seem to "film" everything these days. Part of the "look at me" generation. At least that's what I've taken to calling them lately......


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## RJSakowski (Mar 20, 2015)

great white said:


> Doubtful. Just a couple airheads being stupid and/or trying to show off.
> 
> Kids seem to "film" everything these days. Part of the "look at me" generation. At least that's what I've taken to calling them lately......


Sorry.  I forgot to put in the smiley face.  It was intended to be a sarcastic comment.  On a more serious note, it appears to me that it was a setup as I can not imagine why someone would be filming a chuck removal, in which case it is a qualifier for the Darwin award.


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## TomS (Mar 20, 2015)

Whatever happened to common sense?  These guys obviously don't have it.

Tom S


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## PIKEMAN (Mar 20, 2015)

The Lord watches out for drunks and fools......


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## ogberi (Mar 20, 2015)

I'd bet that fool was boasting that he could stop the chuck from rotating.   Lucky the lathe didn't just wad his leg up into a lump then twist it off.   
Our shop teacher in high school always said "Everybody has one thing they do better than anything else.  Try this on for size.", and hand a push broom to the idiots who wouldn't run the woodworking machines safely.


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## David S (Mar 20, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> So why was this being filmed?  Making a safety video?



So he would have something for his obituary.

David


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## Terrywerm (Mar 20, 2015)

Like they say: Common sense isn't so common anymore.


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Mar 21, 2015)

Pleased to admit Conceit; my father ,and then I taught every child ( and every
childish adult within reach or hearing ) to quickly analyse, "before use, as the
bottle says" as many unfortunate possibilities as you can think of.....BLJHB.


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## markknx (Mar 21, 2015)

Yes I saw this before with a write up. He is trying to hold the spindle to show of how strong he is. Honly achieve showing how weak his mind is. Very lucky was he!
I hope somebody slapped him for this and he learnd to have more respect for the spinning things.
Mark


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## mcostello (Mar 21, 2015)

Either You learn from listening to someone, Your own experience, or the machine teaches You.


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## core-oil (Mar 21, 2015)

Horrendous,  How lucky he was he will never know, With the speed he went over that lathe he could easily have cracked open his skull or broken his neck, Not to mention escaping that horrendous fate, he could easily have been an amputee or in a wheelchair


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## jpfabricator (Mar 21, 2015)

LOOK MA, NO BRAINS!!!!!!!!


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## GK1918 (Mar 22, 2015)

TomS said:


> Whatever happened to common sense?  These guys obviously don't have it.
> 
> Tom S


   right on Tom,  problem is this whole thing today is down the tolet my opinion.  Myselft in school i screwed up
I'd get cracked.  Then the ole man would crack me side the head again for being stupid.  Today the teacher & the old man gets
charged with abuse.  Example of humans dumb and dumber.  My cat lays on the wood stove.  I light wood stove, now cat lays
on the floor in front of wood stove. I never tought the cat- stoves got hot ?  Then a child sticks their hand on it then its the parents
fault ?  Back when I was in the police academy one of my comrades spoke when he wasn't spoken to, and they threw him in
the dumpster all day 8hrs =mess hall fish/ garbage on him and ya better be back with clean clothes "boy"!   Ok little extreme 
BUT they owned you.  Did my buddie learn Yes and don't look the drill sgt. in the eyes or ya will do 50 on the spot. And don't
go home a cryin ta momma then ya get 50 more.  This was like schools in the 40's 50's. They were not there to harm, but
rather find one's good/ bad points then that was corrected.  Thats why i respect my father,teachers& drill sgts. 
modern times  UGG       !


Bevis sticks his finger in a table saw in school,  blood and fingers start a flyin:  Buthead :  COOL  do it again 

Tubal Cain quote   "the dissemination of America" 
Tubal Cain quote   "kids in school mounted up on a shaper" gittie  up go "   their ya go 

just rambling waiting for global warming  yep 15 degrees sa pouse to be spring >nope


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## TomS (Mar 22, 2015)

GK1918 I somewhat agree with you.  Teaching our kids how to get through life has evolved into allowing them to be "free thinkers".  Problem is making decisions without experience or guidance results in what is shown in the video.  In reality nothing is really "free".  Somewhere along the line you must "pay" whether it be with dollars or ???


Tom S


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## markknx (Mar 22, 2015)

born in 65, I was raised with it being ok to be a free thinker, however we were taught that there are consiquences for your thoughts and actions. We also were held responsible for them. Now it is always someone elses fault. "there was no warning lable that said don't do that".
The simple beauty in this video is first the guy was not hurt very bad. Second it is a fine example of the old teaching that the machine has no brain. It can not tell the opperator from the part.  The third and what I find most beautiful is the instant consiquence, and education for his actions. Much like doing the wrong thing in front of my Father (one second you thought you were slick next you were on the floor)


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## TomS (Mar 22, 2015)

Nothing wrong with being a free thinker.  Hope I didn't come across like that.  A good free thinker will also think it through before taking action.

Tom S


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## markknx (Mar 22, 2015)

Tom,
You didn't come across bad I got what you were saying. I hope I didn't come across wrong. Cheers.
Mark


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## chips&more (Mar 22, 2015)

If he has a username on eBay, I want to know it, so I can block him from buying! And my blocking list is getting really loooong to!


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## TomS (Mar 22, 2015)

markknx said:


> Tom,
> You didn't come across bad I got what you were saying. I hope I didn't come across wrong. Cheers.
> Mark



No problem.  We're on the same page.


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## VSAncona (Mar 25, 2015)

We were all kids at one time and did dumb things. Fortunately, most of us survived and learned from our mistakes. I don't think any one generation has cornered the market on stupidity.


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## Tony Wells (Mar 25, 2015)

http://flashbak.com/8-reasons-children-of-the-1970s-should-all-be-dead-323/


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## John Hasler (Mar 25, 2015)

Tony Wells said:


> http://flashbak.com/8-reasons-children-of-the-1970s-should-all-be-dead-323/


Children of the 70's?  Coddled wimps.


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## great white (Mar 25, 2015)

Tony Wells said:


> http://flashbak.com/8-reasons-children-of-the-1970s-should-all-be-dead-323/


Am I the only one who finds the "Mom" pushing her kids on the bikes super hot?


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## markknx (Mar 25, 2015)

great white,
 watch how you talk about my mother! Besides she is 76 now


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## Matthew Gregory (Mar 26, 2015)

John Hasler said:


> Children of the 70's?  Coddled wimps.



Yup, we sure are...

Seems like Soylent Green keeps getting to be a better idea as I read threads like this... What was the cutoff? 65...?


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## 007 (Apr 7, 2015)

I don't know about all the group here, but I hate watching stuff like this. Yea I watched it and before the leg came off I stopped it....


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## JimDawson (Apr 7, 2015)

007 said:


> I don't know about all the group here, but I hate watching stuff like this. Yea I watched it and before the leg came off I stopped it....



The kid was fortunate, it didn't appear to actually do any damage to him.  His buddy was pretty fast on the E-stop.  Had it been too graphic it would not have been allowed on the forum.


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## samthedog (Apr 11, 2015)

It wasn't stupidity so much as a challenge to authority that threw him over the lathe. Before you are allowed in the shop you are given a long list of safety briefings, warnings and shown videos ad. nauseum. He clearly thought he was above all that and challenged the authority of the teacher. To make matters worse, there would have been no instant and permanent dismissal from the class / subject / college, yet if he had been hurt they would have had the teacher's licence and the teacher would finish his working life as a roofer or septic tank drainer. Ask me how I know...

Paul.


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## markknx (Apr 11, 2015)

Paul, how do you know? you said to ask.
Mark


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## samthedog (Apr 11, 2015)

markknx said:


> Paul, how do you know? you said to ask.
> Mark


 
I worked as a teacher for years with quite a few talented and dedicated teachers. Some of who were dismissed from their profession through no fault of their own. 3 allegations (irrespective of wether these were correct or not) meant they lost their teaching licence, rendering their 4 year bachelor degree useless.

One of my friends who has since passed away had to work building fences as he was dismissed from service though 3 allegations that were proven to be false. There were NO consequences for the students who lied in court yet he lost his job. This is compounded if the students do somthing stupid like we witnessed in the video. This was one of the reasons why I left teaching and went into education of adults in the oil industry.

Paul.


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## ih8beingold (Jun 16, 2015)

When I first started entertaining the idea of buying a lathe I made a point of letting my son watch a few "lathe accident" videos on youtube. I'm not trying to terrify him, I just want him to know the consequences of screwing around with a machine. My son is a good boy with much common sense, BUT he has also been raised in a world full of safety devices. Air bags, seat belts, warning labels etc..... He sometimes just assumes things are safer than they are. No offense to the younger generation, but I think 20 may be the new 15 when it comes to common sense. The kids today are sooooo much smarter than I was at that age, but tend to need their hands held just a little longer than my generation. People live longer than ever now, so I guess it all balances out. My 2 cents. Thanks for the video. I'll make sure the boy see's it.


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## Bill C. (Jun 16, 2015)

ih8beingold said:


> When I first started entertaining the idea of buying a lathe I made a point of letting my son watch a few "lathe accident" videos on youtube. I'm not trying to terrify him, I just want him to know the consequences of screwing around with a machine. My son is a good boy with much common sense, BUT he has also been raised in a world full of safety devices. Air bags, seat belts, warning labels etc..... He sometimes just assumes things are safer than they are. No offense to the younger generation, but I think 20 may be the new 15 when it comes to common sense. The kids today are sooooo much smarter than I was at that age, but tend to need their hands held just a little longer than my generation. People live longer than ever now, so I guess it all balances out. My 2 cents. Thanks for the video. I'll make sure the boy see's it.




I agree, my 22 year old nephew is very smart and he can pick up things quickly that he is interested in.  He has a better understanding of computers and smart phones than I do.  Which is great but we need people who like to work with their hands who can keep all the machinery repaired and build the next generation of machines.  Some look to robots for future manufacturing but they seem to forget robots don't buy what they build. They just do what they are programed to do without complaining or growing old.


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## Ebel440 (Jul 8, 2015)

If be willing to bet this sort of thing has happened before and will happen again. Kids do stupid stuff plain and simple. I don't think stupid just started happening recently just the ability to record it. Some kids are idiots some are not.


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## markknx (Jul 8, 2015)

And in all fairness all of us can think of some really dumb things we did. I'm not talking about the brain farts like I forgot to take a chuck key out. I mean just an all out bad idea from the start. All this said think about the first thing most of us do after we do something not to smart. That's right we look to see if anyone else saw it. So in this case maybe a little ridicule is a good thing.
Mark


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Jul 25, 2015)

Don't teach your children what to do, teach them to think of the possible 
Results of their actions, and of those around them. BLJHB.


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## Ed of all trades (Jul 25, 2015)

Back in the 70's my masonry teacher told us about a stupid kid that tried the same thing with a mortar mixer.  The teacher happened to walk into the class and killed all the power to the shop.  He had bet $5 he could hold it back.


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## ScrapMetal (Jul 25, 2015)

Seems appropriate here...

-Ron


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## bpratl (Jul 27, 2015)

Old Albert is right again, it's scary how all the kids get addicted to hand held devices.
You have to rip the tablet out of the hands of my 7 year old grandson to get his attention.


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## Bill Gruby (Aug 22, 2015)

The future is easily changed. Now is the time.

 "Billy G"


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## Fabrickator (Sep 14, 2015)

Without getting too political, I think that most "Americans" know a change of direction is needed, before it's too late.  Now is the time.


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## mcostello (Sep 14, 2015)

*AMEN*


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## TOOLMASTER (Nov 17, 2015)

just came across this....


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## jpfabricator (Nov 18, 2015)

So many no-no's. This kid was lucky. Lets be safe out there gentelmen.

Sent from somewhere in East Texas Jake Parker


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Nov 18, 2015)

I know we must watch these demonstrations; but I am way too old
to beatmy mind  and soul over the stupidities of a system of education
that has no time left over for everyday Physics.........BLJHB.


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## Highsider (Dec 21, 2015)

PIKEMAN said:


> The Lord watches out for drunks and fools......


And Mother Nature routinely removes them from the gene pool............


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## eugene13 (Jan 16, 2016)

I SAY WE ALL TAKE UP A COLLECTION AND BUY HIM SOME FIREWORKS


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## toolroom (Feb 7, 2016)

UH, and these kids today are the leaders of tomorrow?
toolroom


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## Billh50 (Feb 7, 2016)

I have been saying for a couple years now. There should be some kind of school class that teaches common sense. It a simple thinking of..... If I do this....this can happen.


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## savarin (Feb 7, 2016)

I think it should be re-named "uncommon sense" as "common sense" appears to be as rare as rocking horse snot.
Anyone showing visible signs of so called "common sense" today is a genius.
When I was teaching I was forced to do the "Workplace Health and Safety" course.
Once I had the qualifications I was asked to teach it.
I refused and when asked why I replied---
"If someone wants to stick their fingers in the power socket call me for a ringside seat so I can tell them to wet their fingers first and watch the fireworks."
It didnt go down well but I was never asked again to teach it.


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## Highsider (Feb 7, 2016)

It seems like, since the education establishment started pushing "critical thinking skills" in the late '80s and '90s      
that the skill actually became extinct among the young.


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## wrmiller (Feb 7, 2016)

Every generation I have been around has been quoted lamenting about the state of the 'younger generation', and I'd bet my lunch money that the same has been said by every generation since we started walking upright.

Yet so far, every generation has built upon those preceding it in one way or another. Some of it I don't agree with, but so what? Who says my opinion amounts to anything in the greater scheme of things?

So I tell myself to "get over it", and the world with continue in some way, shape, or form without the opinions of the over the hill gang that I am a part of. Our opinions and positions on things apparently don't appear to matter that much to the continuation of the universe. My personal happiness level has increased significantly of late, and I've only been partially successful in ignoring the world 'going to Heck in a handbasket'. 

As for my position on common sense, see my PC-worded sig.


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## TOOLMASTER (Feb 7, 2016)

i will never forget the girl in hs wood shop that got scalped on the wood lathe...flop flop flop


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## Highsider (Feb 8, 2016)

TOOLMASTER said:


> i will never forget the girl in hs wood shop that got scalped on the wood lathe...flop flop flop


I'll bet she will never forget it either.   Seems like if her hair was uncontained, that shop instructor carried some degree of responsibility also.


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## TOOLMASTER (Feb 8, 2016)

some people don't listen


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## wrmiller (Feb 8, 2016)

TOOLMASTER said:


> some people don't listen



Or choose not to. As for responsibility, whatever happened to being responsible for you own actions?


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## TOOLMASTER (Feb 8, 2016)

this was 35 years ago...more than likely drugs were involved....right up there with the pot head that thought it was a good idea to stick his hand in sulfuric acid..then watches his hand melt..


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## Highsider (Feb 8, 2016)

Listen or not, she (or longhaired he) wouldn't be in my shop to work without their hair being covered and no loose clothing etc.
A student who doesn't listen belongs in English class Not a shop class where there is dangerous machinery.


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## TOOLMASTER (Feb 8, 2016)

WE had lots of people that didn't belong in the shop...some of them were the teachers


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## Highsider (Feb 8, 2016)

I hear that.


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## Eddyde (Feb 8, 2016)

Here is a guy that wasn't so lucky


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## great white (Feb 8, 2016)

Eddyde said:


> Here is a guy that wasn't so lucky


I've seen that one before. I think he got off rather lucky myself. 

What I can never understand is how long it takes for someone to actually think to turn the bloody lathe off and then how many people run in and out before someone thinks to release the work from the chuck and get the poor SOB outta there....


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## JimDawson (Feb 8, 2016)

wrmiller said:


> Every generation I have been around has been quoted lamenting about the state of the 'younger generation', and I'd bet my lunch money that the same has been said by every generation since we started walking upright.



That might indicate a slow general decline in the state of generations.  The ultimate result may be that, over time,  the entire human community will devolve into lime jello.


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## wrmiller (Feb 8, 2016)

It has been postulated that the human species has already peaked and is on the downhill slide. Documented declines in overall IQs tends to support this. Is lime jello another word for primordial ooze?


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## JimDawson (Feb 8, 2016)

wrmiller said:


> Is lime jello another word for primordial ooze?



Yup, pretty much!


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## great white (Feb 9, 2016)

wrmiller said:


> It has been postulated that the human species has already peaked and is on the downhill slide. Documented declines in overall IQs tends to support this. Is lime jello another word for primordial ooze?


I blame a lot of it on our trend (as a society) from creating technology to being dependant on it.

For example: younger kids might know more about using an Iphone/iPad than I do, but have very little awareness of what's in it or how it works. I may not be able to build one in the garage, but I sure as heck understand how it works and can identify a lot of the components when I (gasp) crack one open. Given the equipment, I could build one too...

Easy access to the technology that does so much for us has led to a lack of basic skills (ie: math, spelling etc) and its drawing us down a path of "users" vice creators and thinkers. As a society that is...


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## savarin (Feb 9, 2016)

They also have no situational awareness.
ear plugs in, volume on full, eyes down at the screen.


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## FOMOGO (Feb 9, 2016)

They can be scary to watch (the younger generation), but somehow each successive one seems to muddle it's way though and we continue to advance. The world does at times seem to be going to hell in a hand basket, but I try to stay optimistic, mostly because it's beneficial to my general state of mind. There are quite a few very bright young people out there, and there has always been a large supply of the other type through out human history. Mike


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## koehlerrk (Feb 18, 2016)

As I've heard many times... 

Machines don't take prisoners, they prefer to maim or kill.


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## TommyD (Feb 18, 2016)

I used to work at an Ivy League University, I ran a dept. machine shop.

My boss, at the time, was a published professor. He told me he was as better machinist than I was. I told him I was a tool and die maker.

 I came in the shop one day and saw him in back by the Lassey hand tapper. He asked," how do you use this"? I told him he was a better machinist than me, figger it out.

I came in from lunch one day, he was in my shop with a potential assistant. My vertical bandsaw blade was broken and as was the cast adjustable arm on my horizontal saw. He looked at me, thrust something into my hands and said he needed it cut, and scurried out of my shop. I delivered it to his office, withpot a word, after I finished welding up my vert saw blade and brazing the cast arm on my horiz. saw.

He used to give his students keys to my shop so they could work in there after hours. I'd come in in the morning and find broken tool bits in my lathes and mill, tools left out and one time, blood. I reported it but never heard anymore about it. These 'kids' had NO machine shop practical experience.

After this I had enough. I went to the Dept. Chair and told him, almost my exact words, Bob is handing out keys to my shop like beads at Mardi Gras. He giggled a bit but saw I was serious. I kid you not.

I left soon after to raise our daughter.


A few years later, I get an email from my old Dept. Business Manager, I had adopted her as my boss and we kept in touch. She included a link saying that a female undergratuate student died when her hair got caught in a lathe chuck while working off hours.. She, the student, had advanced training in machine shop protocols, whatever that is, but still managed to make a fundamtenal mistake. Sad. I never heard what shut the lathe off. Anyhow  my Business Manager said they all finally got it why I was so upset that day.

When I was on the bench and going to night skool for 11 years to be an Engineer, we had a saying....those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.  I've been in a lot of places, seen a lot of things and have done quite a bit in my time. The stories I got....

I now am trying to prove that old saying wrong, I am currently an Educational Assistant in a Tech Community College. My first real class is Monday night, teaching Lathe Basics to future Engineers. Rolled up sleeves, no dangling jewelry and long hair restrained.


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## TOOLMASTER (Feb 18, 2016)

soon people will be on disability younger and younger thanks to these stupid toys they sell...in my skateboard days the fear of pain kept us out of trouble...the idiots now just don't care, just watch you tube.


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## pebbleworm (Feb 18, 2016)

I posted about a neat gadget for kids a few weks back that addresses some of these concerns- build a box, wire upo some components and play minecraft- no instructions as such, just figure it out as you go along.  We are having fun with it!
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/thre...r-and-play-minecraft-on-it-neat-gadget.42776/


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## atunguyd (Feb 18, 2016)

great white said:


> and then how many people run in and out before someone thinks to release the work from the chuck and get the poor SOB outta there....



Actually thinking about it that pressure on his back could have fractured his spine. Keeping him in the machine till he could be moved while still kept immobilised would probably be the better option in the long run. 


Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk


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## Profkanz (Feb 27, 2016)

TommyD said:


> I used to work at an Ivy League University, I ran a dept. machine shop.
> 
> My boss, at the time, was a published professor. He told me he was as better machinist than I was. I told him I was a tool and die maker.
> 
> ...



Profkanz writes,
I have taught machine shop at Santa Ana College for thirty-six years. (retiring in 13 weeks but who's counting)The first week of every semester was spent in safety instruction. This was followed by a safety test with 100 questions. It takes 90% correct to pass. Long sleeves are not allowed at all, even rolled up. Jewelry is not allowed (including rings and watches). Safety glasses are required at all times.
The only serious injury was when I was subbing another instructor's class. Student broke a finger by leaving a lathe chuck wrench in the chuck and with his hand holding the wrench, turned the machine on. Apparently the other instructor was less rigorous about safety.


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## dlane (Feb 27, 2016)

Take the warning labels off every thing and let the planet get smarter.


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## dlane (Feb 28, 2016)

Unfortunately most things comes with warning labels AND no instructions nowadays,
They can print what not to do , but tell you nothing about how to make it work !.
I weep for the future


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## TOOLMASTER (Mar 24, 2016)

this will make you sick....

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/03/24/students-terrified-by-trump-2016-chalk-drawings.html


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## savarin (Mar 24, 2016)

surely its a beatup


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## Eddyde (Mar 25, 2016)

TOOLMASTER said:


> this will make you sick....
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/03/24/students-terrified-by-trump-2016-chalk-drawings.html


Ugh, It kinda makes me want to be abducted by extraterrestrials....


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## TommyD (Mar 25, 2016)

We're becoming a nation of whimps. So sad.


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## TOOLMASTER (Mar 25, 2016)

..........


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## spacecadet (Mar 28, 2016)

This is one of my favorites, I like to pretend the lathes/mills have become sentient and are rebelling against their human overlords.


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## Tony Wells (Mar 28, 2016)

If you look at the chucking length, you might wonder about the level of sentience of whoever did that setup.


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## wawoodman (Mar 28, 2016)

Aww, poor students...


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Mar 28, 2016)

Crossing the desert of Ignorance, searching for basic physics / mechanics in
Third Grade ; they are inevitabilre in everything we do .........BLJHB


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## Andre (Mar 28, 2016)

We all mess up, as shown in that lathe video above. He might not be aware that centrifugal force acts against the jaws clamping pressure causing it to loosen. Hard to tell from the video, but it's probably spinning upwards of 1500 RPM with the jaws not reversed like they ideally should be.


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## TOOLMASTER (Mar 28, 2016)

and away we go......


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## TOOLMASTER (Jul 10, 2016)

Eddyde said:


> Ugh, It kinda makes me want to be abducted by extraterrestrials....



GET YOUR THUMB OUT!!!! hitch a ride before it's too late.


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## dlane (Jul 10, 2016)

Yup , no more warning labels , instructions in English would be nice on this new crap


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Jul 12, 2016)

Teach your children well.........and rest ( with confidence in their correct
decisions ),  to carry on what  you spent so long learning from from them
and their friends..........BLJHB.


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## strantor (Jul 13, 2016)

Hi, I'm 30; a Millennial I'm told. Probably one of the youngest people on this forum. I hope that doesn't render me unqualified to chime in.
I sympathize and concur with most of your assessments of my generation and the next. But then I'm a bit old fashioned and "old minded" as I say,
Otherwise, why would I be here on a forum full of "old guys" learning an "old guy" hobby?
I listen to the stories that my dad tells (and that my grandpa _told_) and I feel like I belong in the world that they describe.

But I can't afford to adopt your mindset; I can't afford to view the world through goggles of old codgery, since I'll have to live here in the thick of it for many more decades.
Living another 50 years, ****** off by everything I see and hear around me? Looking at every man I see as an effeminate moron? Who wants to live in that?
So I am forced (it is against my nature actually) to look for the good in things and in people, for my own sanity, present and future.
I am forced to act on what I think is right, instead of just criticizing.

I am raising 3 children in the "new & unimproved" America. I am raising them the way I think my grandparents would raise them .
They get spankings, and they get them in public. Sue me.
Yeah, sometimes I put a tablet or a TV in front of them too, so sue me for that too.
I make sure they know when they've said something stupid, and when they've said something smart.
I make sure they know that the participation trophies they get at school are not worthy of praise. And I make sure they know when they've _actually_ worked hard, and _actually_ earned a trophy, despite the fact everyone else go one too.
I make sure they understand that they are children, not adults, and as such their opinions and desires will be heard but don't really factor into my decisions. And I make sure they know that as they get older things will change.
I make sure they know that privilege comes with responsibility and vise versa.
I teach them to defend themselves, and that a little bit of well timed/placed aggression goes a long way.
I enforce a code of respect and obedience in my house that their friends do not understand. Their friends think I'm a crazy person.
My kids are the most well behaved kids you will see these days. And when they grow up (at or before age 18 hopefully) they will have the world at their fingertips.
They will not be burdened by any entitlement and they will not have the weight of all these "feelings" holding them back.
They will know how to seize opportunity and how to compete in scarcity. They will be the few strong amid a sea of weakness; they will be leaders, producers.

This is me doing my part to steer us (the nation) back toward a logical path.
And you know what? It might just be me seeing what I want to see, but I could swear I see more and more other people my age doing some of the same things!
That's right, I think I might be witnessing the slow birth of a new wave of old ideas.
So don't give up on us just yet. I think WE (the millennials), or at least enough among us, are waking up to the fact that the course we're on is ...(drumroll for the buzzword)... unsustainable.
Enough among us have realize that complaining and begging only get one so far.
Enough among us have realized that the world is rife with opportunity, up for grabs to anyone with the brain and/or brawn to go out there and make things happen.

To close out this little diatribe, I'd just like to point out that a lot of the gripes that have been aired thus far are not new gripes:

On common sense being no longer common:
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire (1694-1778)

On phones and tablets in everyone's faces:





On millenials being lazy:
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -Thomas Edison


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## planeflyer21 (Jul 13, 2016)

/\/\/\/\ Well said!


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## Rudy_R (Aug 10, 2016)

strantor said:


> Hi, I'm 30; a Millennial I'm told. Probably one of the youngest people on this forum. I hope that doesn't render me unqualified to chime in.
> I sympathize and concur with most of your assessments of my generation and the next. But then I'm a bit old fashioned and "old minded" as I say,
> Otherwise, why would I be here on a forum full of "old guys" learning an "old guy" hobby?
> I listen to the stories that my dad tells (and that my grandpa _told_) and I feel like I belong in the world that they describe.
> ...



Being 33 myself, I am 100% in agreeance with everything you wrote!

 The wife didn't understand at first why the shop was built bigger than the house, and why the veggie garden is bigger than the shop. The shop gets filled with the tools to make things, while using your thinker about HOW to do it. I don't want my kids growing up to be dummies. It matters not if they go on to be a doctor or teacher, or flip burgers or pump gas. They'll know how to take care of themselves without being at the mercy of everyone else, and will know how and why stuff works. Knowledge gives confidence, and confidence will get you a lot of places in life.


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## TOOLMASTER (Aug 10, 2016)

this guy makes arsonists look bad


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## toolroom (Aug 11, 2016)

"Old minded?"
"Old guys?"
"Old codgery?"
Lions, and tigers and bears, Oh, my... welcome to the geritol forum!


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## strantor (Aug 12, 2016)

toolroom said:


> "Old minded?"
> "Old guys?"
> "Old codgery?"
> Lions, and tigers and bears, Oh, my... welcome to the geritol forum!



I hope you didn't take offense to my adjectives. I just call it like I see it, no disrespect intended.
I'm not the most social person. I have in the past described myself as "socially retarded."
I would not put it past myself to inadvertently say something across-the-line insensitive.
If I did, I apologize.


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## talvare (Aug 12, 2016)

No offense taken by me, and I am one of the ol' codgers !

Ted


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## JimDawson (Aug 12, 2016)

talvare said:


> No offense taken by me, and I am one of the ol' codgers !
> 
> Ted



:+1:  Me too!


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## toolroom (Aug 12, 2016)

Same here, No Offence, and no disrespect taken or given, just having fun... However, for the light of the forum... do you know what Geritol is?


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## 4GSR (Aug 12, 2016)

toolroom said:


> ................ However, for the light of the forum... do you know what Geritol is?


Yeah!!! Wish you could still get it.  I could use some.  The Viagra in its day...


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## Tony Wells (Aug 12, 2016)

heh.....when I was a kid, I musta had something serious wrong with me. My doc told my mom to get me some and take it every day. I think I was iron deficient or something. So, I became a machinist


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## RJSakowski (Aug 12, 2016)

Don't need no Geritol.  Chew on nails, spit out tacks.


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## 4GSR (Aug 12, 2016)

RJSakowski said:


> Don't need no Geritol.  Chew on nails, spit out tacks.


Did that at early age.  Lead poison made me absent minded entering my senior years!


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## CraigB1960 (Aug 12, 2016)

strantor said:


> But I can't afford to adopt your mindset; I can't afford to view the world through goggles of old codgery, since I'll have to live here in the thick of it for many more decades.
> Living another 50 years, ****** off by everything I see and hear around me? Looking at every man I see as an effeminate moron? Who wants to live in that?



When I was in my 20's and 30's, I had not yet been fully exposed to the folly of human nature...certainly time changed that.   Given enough time and exposure, I suspect you will too.  As far as being ****** off by everything..well, the only thing that truly pisses me off is when I see someone jeopardizing their safety or the safety of others.

I've been an electrical engineer (PE) most of my life, unfortunately I've seen multiple deaths due to bad practices and lack of respect or understanding of the danger by the folks performing a job.  I also (over time) became the responsible engineer for projects that could cause death and injury to the public if something went wrong....so I tended to be a little paranoid over the capacity of the human race to do stupid things.  All it takes is one person or one accident to completely ruin a career.   I could not afford to adopt any other mindset.


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## strantor (Aug 13, 2016)

toolroom said:


> for the light of the forum... do you know what Geritol is?


I've certainly heard the name a few times before, mostly used in jokes as you used it.
Before you asked, I associated it with old people but didn't know really what it was.
Googled it just now, just vitamins?


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## strantor (Aug 13, 2016)

CraigB1960 said:


> When I was in my 20's and 30's, I had not yet been fully exposed to the folly of human nature...certainly time changed that.   Given enough time and exposure, I suspect you will too.  As far as being ****** off by everything..well, the only thing that truly pisses me off is when I see someone jeopardizing their safety or the safety of others.
> 
> I've been an electrical engineer (PE) most of my life, unfortunately I've seen multiple deaths due to bad practices and lack of respect or understanding of the danger by the folks performing a job.  I also (over time) became the responsible engineer for projects that could cause death and injury to the public if something went wrong....so I tended to be a little paranoid over the capacity of the human race to do stupid things.  All it takes is one person or one accident to completely ruin a career.   I could not afford to adopt any other mindset.



I'm nowhere near as credentialed or experienced as yourself but I understand where you are coming from. 
I'm a non-PE, non-degreed Controls Engineer; not sure if you would recognize someone without a degree as a "real" Engineer, but I do design machine control systems for a living. 
I am well initiated in idiot-proofing. It is a real challenge to design something that a moron can't use to hurt or kill himself with, but is still usable and diverse. 
Fortunately I have not seen anyone seriously hurt or killed.


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## Silverbullet (Aug 13, 2016)

The way things are going in this country were losing as a producing nation. We only have college idiots who lose all common sense after graduation . I  don't see very many small businesses that make it very long. Not everything can be done by a computer , at least not yet. I too raised my daughter's right we taught them the things our parents taught us. We took them to church and they learned respect for God and his laws for living , we tried to give the best of family values along with respect for elders and others. Teachers in the schools have there hands tied in some of what's aloud. I taught them very early about guns and SAFTEY , my oldest daughter even went hunting with me in our deer clubs drives. Plus she shot TRAP till school took all her time. Now she's a mental health therapist , graduated magna kumloady , ( spelling don't count )  . They all went to some college and made master degree. So Strantor your doing great , raise your children to do right and they will follow your path.


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## CraigB1960 (Aug 13, 2016)

strantor said:


> I'm nowhere near as credentialed or experienced as yourself but I understand where you are coming from.
> I'm a non-PE, non-degreed Controls Engineer; not sure if you would recognize someone without a degree as a "real" Engineer


  Titles are for the law...I always recognized folks that had knowledge over folks that simply had paper.


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## 4GSR (Aug 13, 2016)

CraigB1960 said:


> Titles are for the law...I always recognized folks that had knowledge over folks that simply had paper.


I've known a few PE license mechanical engineers that were my bosses over the years.  And many times I've had to bail them out and fix their screwups are countless!   I do respect those that had great wisdom and I have learned from.  I kick myself for not getting my sheep skin when I had the chance to when I was much younger.  Can't complain, I've done great in the things I do best and I continue to do so when I can.


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## jpfabricator (Aug 14, 2016)

When the feces hits the rotational-air- displacement device, we won't need football players, actors, and lawyers. We will need farmers, labourers, and machinists! 

Sent from somwhere in east Texas by Jake!


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## Tony Wells (Aug 14, 2016)

I don't know about how this works in other states, but one company (machine shop) I worked for decided to try and develop our own line of oil tools. We hired, and eventually made him vp and then part owner, a vp of mfg from SII. He held a BSME. SO someone decided we chould change our company name to XXX Engineering, Inc. In Texas, you can't use the term "Engineering" in your company name unless you have a P.E. on board. It took a couple of years, but we got a nastygram from the Texas Secretary of State informing us we had 90 days to change it to exclude that term or any reference to engineering. I read the letter and at first thought it was some scam to get us to pay a fee or something, but a couple of phone calls later, found out that it was legit. We changed it back to what it was. Never did get that product line we wanted. I think the timing was off anyway, oilfield is too up and down. Funny thing, I am developing a coil tubing tool now, but I don't use "that word" in my company name...lol!

Sometime I regret not going on to get my paper too, but I have been in the thick of it without it, and surrounded by educated idiots. Those times I'm glad I didn't get it. No fingers pointed at me! I believe it's that last required class that does it for most of them....the one where they take all your common sense away. THEN you get your paper.


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## CraigB1960 (Aug 14, 2016)

Tony Wells said:


> In Texas, you can't use the term "Engineering" in your company name unless you have a P.E. on board.



That is how it is in all the states that I know of and was the only reason I went and took the PE exam.   In fact, a person cannot legally call himself an engineer (for hire) without having the PE for that state.   Since I'm retired, I have not bothered keeping mine up....my stamp is a good paper weight now.


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## savarin (Aug 14, 2016)

Yesterday I couldnt even spel the word ingineer, now I are wun.


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## Tony Wells (Aug 14, 2016)

Craig, I may be wrong, but I think that applies mostly to certain specific fields like structural or civic projects where the finished project is a "public work", or a building of some sort. This is one area that separates P.E.s from Engineers. I found this interesting. It shows that there may be changes coming that will increase the ranks of P.E.s. It's getting to be a little bit of a gray area. The broadest interpretation seems to be what is most often used, I suppose because it is the safest. It doesn't make sense to me to require every possible engineering field to meet the stringent requirements of being a licensed P.E., but they didn't ask me. 

From 
©2016 National Society of Professional Engineers | 1420 King St., Alexandria, VA 22314 | 888-285-NSPE (6773)



Only a licensed engineer may prepare, sign and seal, and submit engineering plans and drawings to a public authority for approval, or seal engineering work for public and private clients.
PEs shoulder the responsibility for not only their work, but also for the lives affected by that work and must hold themselves to high ethical standards of practice.
 Licensure for a consulting engineer or a private practitioner is not something that is merely desirable; it is a legal requirement for those who are in responsible charge of work, be they principals or employees.
Licensure for engineers in government has become increasingly significant. In many federal, state, and municipal agencies, certain governmental engineering positions, particularly those considered higher level and responsible positions, must be filled by licensed professional engineers.
Many states require that individuals teaching engineering must also be licensed. Exemptions to state laws are under attack, and in the future, those in education, as well as industry and government, may need to be licensed to practice. Also, licensure helps educators prepare students for their future in engineering.


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## CraigB1960 (Aug 14, 2016)

Tony,
We did mostly electrical engineering that might have buildings that required civil engineering as well.  The bullet points you supplied are basically what I remember in the 2000 to 2010 timeframe that I was actively involved in engineering services.

Just about every project we bid required PE oversight with sign and seal requirements.  We employed multiple disciplines to handle mechanical, civil, and electrical PE requirements.  We also had, like myself supervision with PE's.  Many of our PE's had multiple state licenses to be compliant with State law.


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## Tony Wells (Aug 14, 2016)

I especially like the last point. If the professors are required to be P.E.s, it seems more likely to turn out valid degree holding engineers, and head them in the direction to get their own license as well. Although, I'm sure there will be backlash from employers when it comes to the cost of employing at least one P.E. in each firm. I know lots of engineers who do hold valid degrees, up to MS at least, and are not working in the field where they hold the degree and have the formal education. But they have top jobs making very good money. And they are good at their jobs, even though they learned from experience rather than school.  I guess some play a little loose with the rules, but it may be changing, albeit slowly.


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## CraigB1960 (Aug 14, 2016)

The engineering field is becoming more "protective" and licensing is how it is being done.  No different than the medical, legal, and many craft jobs as well.  If the professor has his MS or PHD, than taking the PE exam should be a piece of cake.  The problem I see though with the teaching profession requiring a PE is the requirement to work for 4 years in  acceptable, progressive, and verifiable work experience in the industry. 

I often hear the argument for the PE for the public safety, which you do have to set some bar of accreditation.  But, I've met many engineers with PE's that should not be allowed to practice engineering.


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## Tony Wells (Aug 15, 2016)

Yes, I know what you mean. I know of a couple of PhD's who should not be working engineers. 

The problem I see is that someone who has worked under all the requirements to acquire a P.E. license probably won't be willing to take a teaching position.  Just finding someone who has the qualifications would be tough enough, and the real drive it takes to get to that level of engineering is based on a love for the work, and that personality is rarely found alongside a honest desire to teach. And that's not even getting to the subject of compensation. 

At the time I was checking to see if we could get one of our engineers to qualify as a P.E. in order to make the state happy was to actually have a published peer-reviewed paper based on the field in which the engineer held his degree. Is that no longer applicable? Or am I remembering incorrectly? It wouldn't be the first time.


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## CraigB1960 (Aug 15, 2016)

Tony Wells said:


> The problem I see is that someone who has worked under all the requirements to acquire a P.E. license probably won't be willing to take a teaching position.


That's were old retired folks like me start to teach!



Tony Wells said:


> At the time I was checking to see if we could get one of our engineers to qualify as a P.E. in order to make the state happy was to actually have a published peer-reviewed paper based on the field in which the engineer held his degree. Is that no longer applicable? Or am I remembering incorrectly? It wouldn't be the first time.



Not that I know of, but each State sets their own requirements for qualifying to take the PE test, though the test itself is a standardized nationwide one.  The key is how the State wants to define the "acceptable, progressive, and verifiable work experience in the industry".  My State required it had to be 3 years working under a supervising PE, which in my case was not a problem.  I also had to have 3 PE's willing to sponsor me.

Edit: A good friend and co-worker of mine had his PE and was one of the best transmission protection engineers I ever met.  The only reason he got his PE was to shut-up the other engineers that had their BSEE degrees.  His degree was mathematics.  When he went to take the PE exam, you had 4 hours in the morning for general knowledge and at that time 4 hours in the afternoon that consisted of electrical specific essay questions.  He turned in his exam after about 1 hour in the afternoon.  The monitor told him not to give up so fast, he still had plenty of time.  He said, quit?  the hell you say, I am done.  He passed his first time....and was an official "Engineer".


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## strantor (Aug 15, 2016)

CraigB1960 said:


> That is how it is in all the states that I know of and was the only reason I went and took the PE exam.   In fact, a person cannot legally call himself an engineer (for hire) without having the PE for that state.   Since I'm retired, I have not bothered keeping mine up....my stamp is a good paper weight now.



That's how it is in Texas.
I was self-employed before I landed my current job.
I called myself a "Field Service Technician" because my attorney told me that in TX you cannot legally bestow upon yourself the title of Engineer without a PE stamp, and you can't get a PE stamp without a degree.
My work was 50% troubleshooting PLC systems and 50% designing & installing AC drive retrofits and PLC retrofits for automating aging manual production equipment.
As I learned later I was in direct violation of the law by "doing the work of Engineering" for hire without a PE stamp, and didn't know it. I thought I was safe by shying away from the title.
It pays to do your own research and not rely on an Attorney. Or I guess it pays to pay a better Attorney.

One of my clients wanted me to come work for them and I said I would do it if they gave me the Engineer title. They told me it wasn't legal so that is when I really did the research.
In TX you CAN legally be given the title by your employer, without a PE stamp. You just have to keep your engineering work in-house and not offer it as a service to clients.
I showed my prospective employer the law and they consulted their Attorney, and now here I am.

The one thing that really surprised me is that, even if you have an Eng degree, you can't offer Engineering services unless you have a PE stamp.
Any degreed Engineer who offers Engineering service without a PE stamp is violating the law just as bad as I was.
An no, it isn't just limited to work that could affect the general public. It's any time you're designing anything at all for someone else. At least that's how I interpret the TX law.
I don't know how many people know that fact, but I imagine there are probably a lot of illegal things going on that nobody is aware of.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but if any of we hobbyist machinists are designing things for other people, we are technically breaking the law (in TX, probably elsewhere too).
The loophole (again, as I, a law-layman interpret the law) is if you design and build something yourself and then sell it as a finished product.
It's the service, the act of _*"doing the work of Engineering"*_ (those are the buzzwords) that is the gotcha.
Selling retail goods (that you happened to have designed and made yourself) is not illegal <----heavy disclaimer on that sentence. I am not an Attorney and this is not legal advice, yadda yadda. Consult an Attorney (a GOOD one).


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## JimDawson (Aug 15, 2016)

I guess I have been operating illegally for about the last 50 years.  But I don't call myself an ''engineer''.    Just a guy who says ''Yeah, I can do that''


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## Tony Wells (Aug 15, 2016)

When I designed water filtration equipment for produced and flowback water, as well as reclaiming completion fluid, and many other fluids processes (including hydrocarbon cracking) I called myself a Senior Technical Consultant and that was on my business cards and on the company books even during a case of litigation. In court it was not questioned, but it was not germane to the issue addressed in the lawsuit. I'll tell that story sometime, after the SoL runs out. I was an employee of the company, we had about 6 engineers with degrees, none of them P.E., but no Engineering in the company name. 

Before that company morphed into the filtration business, I was bequeathed the title "Special Projects Engineer", simply because of my job function. But that was all in house. I wonder how far reaching this law (or regulation) really goes. Manufacturing Engineers? Quality Engineers? There are all sorts of engineers.

LOL....somehow I think we have gotten way off the topic, although it's interesting. Trying to cure the cause of the "weeping for the future"?....not so sure we are doing it.


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## strantor (Aug 15, 2016)

Tony Wells said:


> Yes, I know what you mean. I know of a couple of PhD's who should not be working engineers.
> 
> The problem I see is that someone who has worked under all the requirements to acquire a P.E. license probably won't be willing to take a teaching position.  Just finding someone who has the qualifications would be tough enough, and the real drive it takes to get to that level of engineering is based on a love for the work, and that personality is rarely found alongside a honest desire to teach. And that's not even getting to the subject of compensation.
> .



I did go to college for 1 year. I quit my job as a maintenance tech in a plant to go to college full time to get my Electrical Engineering degree. (I had the post-911 GI bill for a free ride, plus housing allowance)
That is when I started my LLC, so that I could do side jobs for my ex-employer for extra cash. 
One of the courses for 1st year Eng students was "Introduction to Engineering," taught by guy probably 70+ years old. 
He told us his story; boiled down, he graduated college, went out and worked with a team designing containment systems for fluid tanks for a few years and then went back to college as a professor, all before I was born.
He used to teach physics but got tired of that and wanted to teach the newbies who still had sparkles in their eyes.

One day I brought in a device that I had made for my previous employer, before dropping it off later that day.
I tried to engage him in discussion about things that he had designed, and he had nothing to offer. 
He said that his participation on the one Engineering team he had ever been a part of, was limited to basically busy work; crunching numbers, drafting, etc. He had no patents, nor anything that seemed like an original idea.
He, or rather that discussion that we had, is part of the reason why I left school. 
I felt like I was being taught by people with no real-world experience. The blind leading the blind..

After that I started to reevaluate the path I was on. 
I informed myself of the salary of a degreed Engineer upon graduating. A rookie Engineer's average salary was less than I was making as a Maintenance Tech before I quit.
And, by that point I had other customers and figured out that the salray was less than I could make self employed, working 20-30hrs per week (not including health ins.).
That was all the motivation I needed. I didn't feel that FREE college was worth my time. 

Maybe if they had a more qualified person at the gate to welcome in the newbies, I wouldn't have been scared away.
But there probably wasn't any more qualified person to be had, because as you point out, the qualified people are not willing to take a teaching job.
The qualified people have the passion for the jobs they're qualified for. Teaching is a totally different passion.
There's a maxim for that: "those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." <- a little harsh and not applicable 100% of the time, but it's a maxim for a reason.


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## CraigB1960 (Aug 15, 2016)

strantor said:


> That's how it is in Texas.
> I was self-employed before I landed my current job.
> I called myself a "Field Service Technician" because my attorney told me that in TX you cannot legally bestow upon yourself the title of Engineer without a PE stamp, and you can't get a PE stamp without a degree.
> My work was 50% troubleshooting PLC systems and 50% designing & installing AC drive retrofits and PLC retrofits for automating aging manual production equipment.
> ...


Yep, no one can call themselves an engineer unless they have a PE.  And no one can perform the work as an engineer that is not a PE or have the oversight of a PE.  This is "work for hire" as I stated in one of my posts above.

I had to deal with this on a daily basis when I was Director of an Engineering Services division.



strantor said:


> One of my clients wanted me to come work for them and I said I would do it if they gave me the Engineer title. They told me it wasn't legal so that is when I really did the research.
> In TX you CAN legally be given the title by your employer, without a PE stamp. You just have to keep your engineering work in-house and not offer it as a service to clients.
> I showed my prospective employer the law and they consulted their Attorney, and now here I am.



Any employer can call you anything they wish!  Look at the title Sanitation Engineer!  However, the work must be contained within house.  Utilities are a good example of this.



strantor said:


> The one thing that really surprised me is that, even if you have an Eng degree, you can't offer Engineering services unless you have a PE stamp.



Yep, you are not an engineer until the State says you are!  This is to protect the public.



strantor said:


> The loophole (again, as I, a law-layman interpret the law) is if you design and build something yourself and then sell it as a finished product.
> It's the service, the act of _*"doing the work of Engineering"*_ (those are the buzzwords) that is the gotcha.



The company I retired from was a very large manufacture of electronic equipment that could impact public safety.  They could care less (and the law) about PE requirements being the manufacture of equipment.  That was for the enduser that designed the use of their product into the final system to worry about.  It was only when they started an Engineering Service division that it became apparent PEs were needed.  And then the requirement of having a licensed PE for each state we did work in was necessary, as well as the proper discipline for the work being done.....Electrical, Civil, Mechanical.  (Practice within one's scope of practice).

I now product finished electrical products for sale.  I have not kept up my PE, but it is legal for me to provide this product.  It is not legal for me to practice engineering for hire unless I renewed my license AND got licensure in my current state.  Like I said earlier, my stamp is a great paper weight!  And if you notice, I do not sign with the (PE) anymore, simply I'm a retired PE.


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## strantor (Aug 15, 2016)

Tony Wells said:


> When I designed water filtration equipment for produced and flowback water, as well as reclaiming completion fluid, and many other fluids processes (including hydrocarbon cracking) I called myself a Senior Technical Consultant and that was on my business cards and on the company books even during a case of litigation. In court it was not questioned, but it was not germane to the issue addressed in the lawsuit. I'll tell that story sometime, after the SoL runs out. I was an employee of the company, we had about 6 engineers with degrees, none of them P.E., but no Engineering in the company name.
> 
> Before that company morphed into the filtration business, I was bequeathed the title "Special Projects Engineer", simply because of my job function. But that was all in house. I wonder how far reaching this law (or regulation) really goes. Manufacturing Engineers? Quality Engineers? There are all sorts of engineers.



Here's what the law says, if you're interested. Pay close attention to:

1001.002. Definitions (2): “Engineer”

1001.003. Practice of Engineering

1001.004. Legislative Purpose and Intent; (c)

1001.051. Limitation on Exemption

1001.057. Employee of Private Corporation or Business Entity

1001.301. License Required

1001.302. License Eligibility Requirements


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## CraigB1960 (Aug 15, 2016)

strantor said:


> He said that his participation on the one Engineering team he had ever been a part of, was limited to basically busy work; crunching numbers, drafting, etc. He had no patents, nor anything that seemed like an original idea.


Most engineers or for that matter anyone in the technical field (this includes medical, legal, etc) rarely invent or achieve that individuality that sets them apart in their field.  They simply go through the paces like any other job.  This is not to say they are not important or the work they do is not important, it is just a fact.

I was very fortunate that I got exposure to a wide range of engineering and was able to excel in both designing large systems as well as embedded systems.



strantor said:


> After that I started to reevaluate the path I was on.
> I informed myself of the salary of a degreed Engineer upon graduating. A rookie Engineer's average salary was less than I was making as a Maintenance Tech before I quit.
> And, by that point I had other customers and figured out that the salray was less than I could make self employed, working 20-30hrs per week (not including health ins.).
> That was all the motivation I needed. I didn't feel that FREE college was worth my time.



A lot of folks make more than degreed engineers, even within the same company.  Senior Technicians, administration (management), etc...  A lot of engineers look for stability that a job provides (benefits) versus pay.  Everyone must pick their own career path and weigh the pros and con's.



strantor said:


> Maybe if they had a more qualified person at the gate to welcome in the newbies, I wouldn't have been scared away.


Perhaps, a good motivating teacher does inspire.  BUT, one must remember all college does is provide a paper that states you have achieved a certain level of knowledge, not that you know anything in a real-world application.  (Just like the PE exam)

It simply teaches where to look and how to gain the answers when you are confronted with real-world problems to solve.  College does not prepare you for performing the work in a real-world application...that would be the job of a  tech college.  This is why employers like experienced applicants, otherwise they must do on-the-job training regardless of your degree.


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## strantor (Aug 15, 2016)

JimDawson said:


> I guess I have been operating illegally for about the last 50 years.  But I don't call myself an ''engineer''.    Just a guy who says ''Yeah, I can do that''


I can't get your website to load and I haven't closely followed the nature of your posts on here, but I think as long as you're selling products and not services you're in the clear.
If you are selling services, perhaps a simple & clever restructuring of your affairs would put you in the clear. 
For example, when I go back into business for myself, I won't sell "engineered upgrades." I'll sell upgrade kits (that I happened to have designed) and install them.


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## strantor (Aug 15, 2016)

CraigB1960 said:


> Most engineers or for that matter anyone in the technical field (this includes medical, legal, etc) rarely invent or achieve that individuality that sets them apart in their field.  They simply go through the paces like any other job.  This is not to say they are not important or the work they do is not important, it is just a fact.
> 
> I was very fortunate that I got exposure to a wide range of engineering and was able to excel in both designing large systems as well as embedded systems.
> 
> ...



Good points. I have in the past year come back around to the idea of getting that paper. I think that performing for the past 2 years with the Engineer title will really help my mobility, but with all the automation in the HR machines these days, your really need the paper to get the job. With no check-box for your degree, your online application (and they are almost ALL online nowdays) gets automatically file-13'd before a human ever sees it. I will be limited to small operations like the one I'm with currently.


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## JimDawson (Aug 15, 2016)

strantor said:


> I can't get your website to load



I need to move my website to a new host, I am having nothing but trouble with the current host.



strantor said:


> For example, when I go back into business for myself, I won't sell "engineered upgrades." I'll sell upgrade kits (that I happened to have designed) and install them.



That is exactly what I sell.  But I also do a lot of other stuff that is mostly just word-of-mouth referrals.  I don't ''engineer'' things, I just solve problems!


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## dlane (Aug 15, 2016)

I weep for the future , due to the political choices (crooks) of these times "all of them" 
 along with all the other ripoff , government, company's, Wall Street, hackers, just plain bad greedy people, Unfortunately it's probably going to get a lot worse before it gets better. 

" I fear the day that technology will surpass 
   our human interaction 
    The world will have a generation of
                     Idiots.
                                       Albert Einstein "


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## 4GSR (Aug 15, 2016)

In my business, I work as an "Design Consultant".  Even though some of the stuff I do involves "engineering" of sorts.  My clients know this, and have no issues with this or the work I do for them.  It's never been a concern in the court of law in any ligations I was partially involved in.  If there ever is an concern, and it does come up occasionally, we have a PE licensed engineer available to us when needed.  We also use their services for third party validation of the products I have designed over the past few years, too.


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## Superburban (Aug 16, 2016)

No wonder there are no Sanitation Engineers anymore.

The Army said I'm an Engineer, I even have several pieces of paper and a flag to prove it. Honestly, I spent more time destroying stuff then designing things.  Much more gratifying.


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