# Introduction & Mill Selection Advice Needed



## bburns0909 (Oct 29, 2020)

I've been lurking around here for a few weeks now doing a lot of research. Lots of good information and I've narrowed down to a PM machine of some kind. I've always wanted a vertical mill and about ready to pull the trigger, but would like some advice first. A little background...I'm an engineer by trade. I've worked in several industries, but mostly aerospace. So I have a technical background, understand materials, machine drawings, etc. I actually worked for a year in a model shop about 20 years ago and learned how to machine on an old fully manual Bridgeport. No DRO's or power feeds or anything like that. Traditional layout, indication and cutting was it. Since then, I've always desired to get back into it as a pure hobby. I have no intentions on making money off a new machine. If I do, it will be an accident. I also have no desire to go CNC. I like the old school process (it's therapeutic for me), but wouldn't mind some new bells and whistles (DRO and power feeds). The engineer in me drives me to get the most "precise" machine I can, but I'm not confident on how to balance preciseness with size and general capabilities. So here are my considerations...

*Space:*  I work in a 2-car garage that's already filled with large woodworking machines (my other hobby). The space is fairly small, so a bench type mill is in order. No room for a used Bridgeport or larger knee mill.
*Power: *I have easy access to 120V and 220V. No issues there.
*Budget:* <$5k (Mill, DRO, power feed, clamp kit, collet set, drill chuck). I already have a KURT DX4, indicators, calipers and some layout tooling. Any additional tooling will be something outside of the $5k budget. 
*What will I make?: *Not 100% sure yet, but small things in general. Small brackets, shop tools, woodworking squares & shop aides, an occasional firearm build/modification, etc. Basically this machine is something for me to play with. Not intended for production or large/heavy parts.
*Materials: *I'd like the capability to work with aluminum, brass, basic steel, tool steel, cast iron & stainless. Basically everything.

So I've narrowed down my choices to the PM-30MV and the PM-728VT. The PM-728VT appears to be $1k more than the PM-30MV all in. I've looked at all the spec's and see the differences in tables, weight (rigidity), precision, capacities, power, etc. For what I plan do, is the 728 basically a step down considering the materials I want to work with, 2HP vs. 1HP and the big weight/rigidity differences of these machines? Any reason I would be unhappy or frustrated with the "precision" of the PM-30MV compared the 728. I definitely don't want to spend $1k extra if it really doesn't buy me much given my hobby purposes. Anyway, any advice or guidance this group has would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Brandon


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## Stonebriar (Oct 29, 2020)

I don't know anything about the bench mills, but I do know that anything in the model that has a "T" is made in Taiwan vs China.  A much better job in the quality of the manufacturing.
Good luck with your search.


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## ttabbal (Oct 29, 2020)

As a general rule, smaller/less rigid machines mean you need to take smaller cuts. You can do most parts that will fit in the work area, but it will take longer. Precision will depend on that as well as cutter flex and such. Light finishing passes will help ensure you get the cut you dial in, particularly on a smaller machine with a smaller cutter. 

I've heard good things about both of those mills, though I haven't used either myself. If it were me, I would go with the heavier machine assuming budget allows. You can always pick up tooling and such later, but you can't add rigidity. I have a Bridgeport and a PM1127 lathe. I can definitely feel the difference rigidity makes. But the smaller lathe still does great work. I just have to be more patient. I wouldn't sweat the HP too much, my Bridgeport is an older model with a 1HP motor, and I've never felt it lacks in power. And the Taiwan model will be better on fit and finish out of the box. That's always nice when getting a new machine. 

Definitely get a DRO and at least X power feed. You can save some money installing them yourself, but it's pretty convenient to have it done for you. Having the feed on X really makes me want them on Y/Z. I often find myself trying to arrange setups to cut on X. I do use an adapter in a drill for Z feed if it's more than about an inch though. Helps a lot.


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## Gaffer (Oct 29, 2020)

I can't help with the benchtop mill selection, but welcome to the forums!


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## Janderso (Oct 29, 2020)

I'm with Gaffer.
Welcome to this wonderful forum.
A new mill, that's fun.
If you can find the one you want that is in stock, it was meant to be.
My only advice would be to get the DRO with what ever you decide.


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## wrmiller (Oct 29, 2020)

I do pistolsmithing as a hobby, and for me, accuracy and quality are everything. Yes, I've had my share of chinese bench mills, but knowing what I know now I'll never do it again.

Just my opinion of course (and worth everything you're paying for it...), but if I needed a bench mill right now the only one I would consider is the 833T. Even if my budget wouldn't get me everything all at once, I'd still get the mill and add things as I could afford them. Which is kinda what I did. 

Welcome to the forum from another old engineer, and enjoy whatever you decide to get!


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## Janderso (Oct 29, 2020)

The PM 833T is their high end 100% Taiwan -5 year warranty bench mill.
I would be proud to own that mill.
The more I work in my shop the more I can see a need for a smaller unit.
Since I only have room for one, I would probably go for a high quality knee mill.
My Sharp is so darn big and heavy you need to walk from one side of the table to the other to feed it.


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## 7milesup (Oct 29, 2020)

If you get the 833, make sure you get the 833TV version.


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## addertooth (Oct 30, 2020)

BBurns0909,

I was recently in your position, with similar goals. I got the PM-728-VT.  I have used an old Bridgeport in the past (longer ago than you).
I wanted something compact and capable.   I was not going to be doing production work, so none of the work I would be doing was going
to be super-deep/fast cuts.  The 728 arrived recently, and yes, I could not resists turning the handles.  They were very firm and smooth,
which made me feel rather good about the fit and finish of the dovetails.  The machine appears to be very well made, but has not yet been
mounted to a table (I am mid-process welding a table for it, as PM is out of stock on the pedestal for the mill).   For the record, PM is currently
out of stock on the Mill as well (I ordered one of the last 3 in stock, so you will need to call them for an ETA on new ones coming in).

At the time of ordering, they were out of the DRO version of the 728, so purchased an inexpensive 5 micron three axis DRO kit which set me back about 200 bucks through eBay.  The mill will be used to make the custom brackets to mount the DRO, as the brackets that come with these kits
are never a perfect fit for any mill.

I feel that 1 HP is plenty for a home hobby-use mill.  Once again, the goal was not to purchase a production-oriented machine, rather the goal
was a very good quality machine with a solid warranty.  For some reason, many people here cannot fathom scaling your machine for the intended use.
They assume you will move onto larger projects and become disenchanted with a smaller lathe/mill.  As a former machinist, I have a strong
understanding of the scale I wish to work with, and if you do too, then get something which matches your needs.  I have neither the shop space,
or the desire for a two-ton, 5hp mill, maybe it is just me.


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## wrmiller (Oct 30, 2020)

No...it's not just you. But I suspect those like us are the exception, not the rule.


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## addertooth (Oct 30, 2020)

WRMiller,
I am laughing at myself at for not noticing it is you.  My fellow local Arizonan.   I will be back in town in about 3 weeks.  If you want to come by and look at the PM-728-VT, then please let me know.   As close as you live, you ought to come by and check it out.  Hopefully I will have it off the pallet and on the stand by then (it will get used for making feeds for fountain pens).   The weekend of the 21st of November would be perfect.  I can show you some of my restored pens while you are here (and a few dozen that are mid-process).   I have a cousin of the 5200 (the 5100 family 7350) which I use.   It has DROs installed on the tailstock, cross feed and compound.  I really like the DRO on the tailstock, as it is easier to bore pen stock to a very specific depth with no drama and guessing. It also has an independent 4 jaw chuck which is great for gripping square blocks.  The DRO on the compound makes it much easier to make a good 3-lead thread on the barrel and cap.   I am still waiting on some nice patterned Hard Rubber stock from Ranga Pens in India.  International Post in India is at a FULL stop, so international shipping is ultra-iffy out of India at this time.  The mill will also be used to make some dies, to shape pen clips.


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## TX COWDOC (Oct 30, 2020)

addertooth said:


> .  For some reason, many people here cannot fathom scaling your machine for the intended use.
> They assume you will move onto larger projects and become disenchanted with a smaller lathe/mill.



Good point.  I would contend that there is also a subset of members here that are in the "If I had it to do over again, I would have...." camp.  Like many things in life...(the 1st gun safe, the 1st tool chest, etc.) we want something bigger a few years / chips down the road.  As can be seen on this forum, I waffled back and forth on both my lathe and my mill.  Ultimately I received lots of great feedback and am happy with my decision.  For me it was a PM1236 and a PM833T.  Enjoy your search and post your setup you get it delivered!


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## wrmiller (Oct 30, 2020)

I have a PM935TS and a PM1340GT and they do everything I want. I have no need for larger machines. TBH if I could find someone who was willing to trade me a Hardinge HLV with digital threading, I'd take it in a heartbeat. 

The only reason I have a mill the size of the 935 was to get a fully articulating head and knee, with overall good quality. Mission accomplished.


addertooth said:


> WRMiller,
> I am laughing at myself at for not noticing it is you.  My fellow local Arizonan.   I will be back in town in about 3 weeks.  If you want to come by and look at the PM-728-VT, then please let me know.   As close as you live, you ought to come by and check it out.  Hopefully I will have it off the pallet and on the stand by then (it will get used for making feeds for fountain pens).   The weekend of the 21st of November would be perfect.  I can show you some of my restored pens while you are here (and a few dozen that are mid-process).   I have a cousin of the 5200 (the 5100 family 7350) which I use.   It has DROs installed on the tailstock, cross feed and compound.  I really like the DRO on the tailstock, as it is easier to bore pen stock to a very specific depth with no drama and guessing. It also has an independent 4 jaw chuck which is great for gripping square blocks.  The DRO on the compound makes it much easier to make a good 3-lead thread on the barrel and cap.   I am still waiting on some nice patterned Hard Rubber stock from Ranga Pens in India.  International Post in India is at a FULL stop, so international shipping is ultra-iffy out of India at this time.  The mill will also be used to make some dies, to shape pen clips.



Send me a PM when you're ready and I'll drive over.


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## Kiwi Canuck (Oct 31, 2020)

I suggest going with the Taiwan made machines, 728VT or the 833TV which is in stock.

I couldn't get over the difference in the fit and finish, the Taiwan made machines are just so much better finished and feel right in the hand.

The Taiwan machines also have a 5 year warranty versus 3 years for the Mainland China models.

Welcome to the forum and let us know what you choose.

BTW, the extra inch or two on the 833 might come in handy, I have a PM935 and I run out of table on some projects by the time I get everything setup and clamped, usually making brackets or similar and need to unclamp and rotate or reposition the piece which is time consuming.

David.


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## bburns0909 (Nov 1, 2020)

Thanks for all the feedback. I think I'll go with a Taiwanese machine for sure now. Seems like I'll be happier with the fit and finish. I'll post when I decide on the final version and options. Thanks!


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## bburns0909 (Dec 16, 2020)

I decided to go with the PM-728VT w/DRO and placed the order this week. I'm looking forward to the delivery, getting set up and seeing what damage I can do. Hopefully they take delivery and ship out fairly soon.


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## wrmiller (Dec 16, 2020)

Gotta have lots of pics after you get it!


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## Larry$ (Dec 16, 2020)

Good suggestions. Do go with a Taiwan mill! & DRO. The powerfeed helps make a more uniform surface. Some things take way more Z area than what you might expect. Do some layouts by drawing what pace is required for things like a boring head with the bar and the work in place. Another space eater is a rotary table on edge or semi universal indexing unit set vertically with a chuck. Combine that with a boring head and you can see the problem. 
I had gotten my knee mill as part of a buyout. I soon discovered that a mill w/o a lathe was an incomplete system. 4 years ago I bought a PM1440HD lathe. Chinese with some typical Chinese issues but generally OK. PM took care of issues fine. You will "NEED" a lot of accessories for both. I've done a fair amount of repair work and have been glad I've got the size machines I do. But for my playaround "work" bigger than needed. Have fun.


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## Kiwi Canuck (Dec 17, 2020)

Good call on the DRO, they are awesome to use and I love the line hole and circle functions, I use both more than I expected.

Great choice on the machine as well, the variable speed is a nice feature to have, makes finding the right cutting speed a breeze.

David.


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