# How do you rate a Kurt vise compared to a chinese knockoff...



## HMF

Hey Guys,

I need a new vise for my milling machine. Sure, Kurt vises are great, but they cost an arm and a leg. 

There are several Chinese reproduction vises on the market.

What I want to know is, how do these stand up next to a Kurt and what Chinese brands (i.e. Phase II, etc) are the best to buy.

Thanks,

Nelson


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## Tony Wells

I'd say that much depends on how hard you are on a vise. I've used Kurt mostly, and can justify the expense being in business, but also have some time on imports. The fit n finish is far better on the Kurt, but functionally, I see the casting quality as inferior on the imports. They "flex" more.


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## HMF

What about a newbie wanna-be home shop guy like me- will it matter?

If offered a "well-used" American vise or new import, which would you pick, sight unseen? I had to make that choice and picked the new Chinese.

How would you evaluate the used vise? Used Kurts appear on Ebay, but you can't see them or run a DTI on the jaws.

Thanks.

Nelson


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## Tony Wells

Realistically, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference unless you are doing production work where tight repeatability is required. The angle lock, or draw down design is going to function the same, it's just that with looser work on the vise parts, you won't get the same precision loading. I'd bet that the parallelism of the base to ways isn't quite as good on the imports, but for 90% of vise work, if you really need it close, you'll have some jaw inserts and can machine the step you need.

Sight unseen? I'd go with a new import. If I could look it over, the obvious knocks and holes indicate abuse. Absent them, the used one would be my choice, provided it was reasonably priced. I have an Enco oldie and a domestic Bridgeport make, and between the two, the BP seems to be a harder cast, just ringing it. The newer Enco stuff has not impressed me. The old one is always on the knee mill, and a like new Kurt reserved for close work. The bigger mill has an OEM supplied vise made by or for Cincinnati I believe. It's an 8".


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## Conrad Hoffman

It's a tough call. When all I could afford was an import, I bought an import. It did the job, but when I lucked into a used Kurt the quality of my mill work improved noticeably. By that I mean that angles were more square and I could hold tolerances better. And on a mill/drill no less. My vise is actually worth about the same as the mill/drill it sits on! My import was a Kurt copy, but the pull-down on the upper jaw never worked as well and it needed some fine tuning on the internal surfaces before it worked even passably. Buy what you can afford and learn to use it to the maximum, but always keep an eye out for better. There are also a couple other good vises besides Kurt, but I've no direct experience with them.

Conrad


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## Largo

While my knee jerk reaction would be to use chicom stuff only as boat anchors, I have seen many people happy with them. The problem is in quality control - one vise may be great and the next a candidate for resmelting. That said, many people are happy with Phase II and Glacern vises (I believe they are chicom). You might also want to watch CL for used Kurts, though you may need to put some work into them. I've picked up several decent vises like this - 2 brand name Bridgeport 6" for about $20 each and a Kurt D80 with three sets of jaws and a swivel base for $400 (this one counts as a major gloat as it was virtually new).

Don't worry too much about the condition of the jaws as a replacement set can either be bought or fabricated. If you have a surface grinder, you can fix virtually any problem (nicks, dings, mild warping) short of a cracked base casting.

I've also seen people that have effectively used out of square vises by shimming them and/or adjusting the tram of the mill head - the important thing is to know how and to what extent the vise is out of square.

Brian
Taxachusetts


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## Tony Wells

Oh, and if you go for a used vise, and get the handle with it, use the pretzel shape as bargaining power. If it's not there, assume it was too bent to show.


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## Starlight Tools

I have a 6" Taiwan made Vertex swivel vise on my mill and it has been a decent vise. I have had no complaints other than the jaws are actually 6-1/4" and the US made spring loaded parallel separators I got from KBC don't fit as they are only a hair wider than 6"

Walter


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## terry_g

I have a 5" Chinese copy of a Kurt vice. I had to machine both sides of the base as they were far from flat
The hole for the pin that the vice swivels on was not in the centre so I bored it larger and made a stepped pin for it.
The bottom of the vice was not flat so I face milled it. The stationary jaw was .090" higher than the movable jaw so I face milled the top of the vice as well. Surprisingly the ways are only out about .003".
I paid $135.00 for it. You get what you pay for.

Terry


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## Mid Day Machining

I have been looking for a vise for a long time and was considering one of the cheap Chinese variety until about 2 weeks ago. I was out cold calling, looking for business when I stumbled upon a man who was going out of business and he sold me 4 Kurt 6 inch vises for $100.00 each. That was a deal that was too good to pass up. I need 2 vises for my new Tormach PCNC1100. I sold 2 of the vises for $250.00 each. I got my vises for free and actually made $100.00 on the deal.


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## AR1911

Last year I bought a new Chinese 3" Kurt clone for my minimill. I used it a bit, seemed OK. Then a teardown posted on another site made me curious, so I took mine apart and checked everything. It was mostly OK except for one very important area. 
Cast into the base is an angled face that is the base portion of the angle-lock mechanism. This is the part that faces the table at about a 45-deg angel. The sliding part mates with it at the same angle, with a half-ball between them to even out the forces left/right. 
That half-ball sits in a small curved cavity in the base, in the center of that angled face. 
  On my vise, that angled face was poorly cast with no real angled face. It was basically a big misshapen cavity. There was some sort of socket for the half-ball, but it was rough cast (not machined) and fit poorly, and in fact the half-ball had fallen out and was buried in a glob of grease on one side.
  I was able to mill out that pocket and grind a new socket, so now it works OK. But as-shipped it was junk.
  So at the least, tear down a Chinese vise before you start using it. Or before you buy it, if possible. They are simple to take apart and reassemble.


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## jjburns

I have used both. for light duty an import vice is probably ok. But I have never used my equiptment LIGHTLY, so I recomend buying a known quality  Kurt, sure they are expensive but I've had mine 25years , it still has more accuracy than an import! Do yourself a favor, buy a KURT!

               John


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## Amigo

On the advice of those I respected, I bought a Kurt D60 and the accessory swivel base in 1985. The base casting bottom is/was ground flat. The bed is/was ground parallel within .0001 in both length & width with the base. Both fixed and moveable jaws are perpendicular to the bed and the moveable has .0005 pos. tilt when free & zero with some clamp pressure. This old Kurt is as good today as it was when brand spankin new.

These old D60's do not have the nice ground area 3/4" wide, the length of & square to the bed & fixed jaw. The old swivel bases were not marked at each degree, but only have markings each 5 deg. Fixed that by adding 4 more deg. marks from Zero on the edge of the bed base. Plus, the newer (6")D675's open wider than the older (6")D60's.

Point being, the new Kurts are even a better value over the older. 

If'n a feller wud really druther cut shim stock then mill...well I s'pose he could save a hunert with a cheap vise & turn round spend it on shim stock to shim either vise base or shim the work the resta yer life, in order to get two opposing faces half way parallel let alone square. Unless o'course, a guy is jus lookin fer an excuse to use a surface grinder, that is, if'n he has one.


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## Frank Ford

I bought one strictly on price, and got this when it was time to clamp something really tight:




Did fix it though, mostly as a learning project:

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/Projects/ViseRepair/viserepair.html


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## Tony Wells

Frank, that was a good example of a key difference in material. Good cast can look just like poor cast, under the paint. That would be one argument on favor of a Kurt. You did well repairing that vise, and I have to believe that in the back of your mind, all other import vises are at risk of the same failure.


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## duckman

I've had both vises a Kurt which I had to disassemble and grind the bottom flat it had a .002" hump on the bottom when you tightened the work the vise would flatten out but left the jaw track with a bow in it, then I got a present from ENCO it was a $1,000.00 spending spree so I replaced everything that I sold with my BRPT clone, collet set, hold down set, 3" boring head with R8 shank, 3/4" boring bar set, and ended up with a Parlec vise the one that opens to about 9" do not regret it one bit, bought a 3 handle spider wrench for it. Its the only vise that I've seen with a serial # and an 800 number, for what its worth Parlec is now owned by Teco.


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## EricMenantico

I have a chinese kurt knockoff, at the time I couldn't justify paying for a kurt. My chinese vise lifts when I tighten it; more than .005, but it will work for the time being I suppose. If I see a good deal on a kurt I'll probably jump on it.


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## george wilson

I may not be up on RECENT imports. In the 80's,I bought a 6" Taiwan vise and used it for years. Just a few years ago,I got a real Kurt. I can tell you that the Kurt still lifts up the part some when you tighten it down. You still have to smack the part down with a dead blow hammer.

I think a MAJOR problem with imports is the swivel base is too THIN. You can see the base lifting and falling when taking a heavier cut. And,that heavy cut isn't really that heavy when using a Bridgy clone(or a real one).

The worst import vises I have seen are those that have a crackle finish.


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## bjmh46

I've owned two 5" Kurts, and the last vise I bought was a 4" import (J&L). The import was immediately disassembled, swivel base and vise bed ground, jaws ground, new pilot for swivel base, along with some other minor fitting. So, access to a large enough surface grinder, and about a days work, and you can have a vise every bit as accurate as a Kurt. Swivel base grads suck, but who relies on them anyway. I don't "gorilla" the handle on this vise, it's for small, light work, and I'm more than satisfied. IIRC, I paid about 90 bucks for it--my time is free cuz I'm most happily retired!

Bob


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