# Kinda going off Chinese import stuff..



## graham-xrf

The kit, that is, not the grass-roots people.

Stefan Gotteswinter has pointed out that for many folk with a hobby machine interest, if it were not for the import, it would be no machine at all! Perhaps let us exclude the Taiwan manufactured kit from this category, because the very popular Precision Matthews stuff is not only good value for money, the construction is very clearly better than in most Chinese imports. Even so, I look around at stuff I have. The pervasive majority seems Chinese, even down to the impact driver, the new thermostatic soldering iron rework station for electronic work, and I cannot help feel I don't want it this way!

The two machines that elicit the best feelings in me are the South Bends. They are American, and old, but are being given the TLC to become proud. In context, I am not even American!

So I compare to the several brand new machines in my shop, some still on the shipping pallets. The drill press, new out of the box, vibrates to the point of needing ear defenders. It is supposedly an Austrian premium brand, but one look at the attempted translation several languages "manual", roughly 4cm x 3cm, in a font so small as to require a headband magnifier, made me suspect otherwise.

My Cormak mill, imported from Poland,  is a PM-25MV variant, seemingly identical to Grizzly G0704, Weiss-VM25, and all the others with the same Chinese DNA.  I have to agree with Stefan, that one should treat the Chinese imports as a base parts kit, to be  worked on, upgraded, refined, and given the features a really nice machine should have.

So what happened? We can't really stay with the story that these are made by poorly paid urchins in China! The "Drillpro" end mills available from Banggood are very nice, reasonably priced, and did not come from a Shenzhen sweatshop!


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## woodchucker

well said. We have done it to ourselves.
Politically we did this to ourselves as well. Nixon went over and opened the door to pandora's box.
The American companies greedy for more business (opening up the china economy) started to build the factories.. Then China woke up and realized they didn't need us anymore.  The rest is as they say history.  

edit: but let me poke in this was CEOs and politicians that did this..  We were just hooked by cheap products..


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## vtcnc

I think when the real historians in the world finally get the non-politicalized story of globalisation straightened out, it will tell the story of how nearly a billion people in two developing countries came out of subsistence farming and urban poverty and became part of the working middle class and will describe all of the problems and wonders that come along with that transformation.

China went from stealing, copying, and arguably still struggling to make a quality product to eventually having their own global powerhouse industries. This is still playing out and it is fraught with compromises, unfulfilled standards, broken promises, etc., i.e. China and India's industries are still getting sorted out and I think time will tell if they can meet global needs and standards.

And the history books will tell a story about how many companies in the original industrialist countries played games with quality to stay alive. Cutting corners, figuring out ways to cheat on costs, exploiting others to make marginal gains while losing focus on their craft. What we are witnessing is miraculous and ugly at the same time.

On the other hand, it is hard to grasp how many great manufacturers are out there. They are just so many trying to make good products, its just that many of them aren't making smaller machining equipment. I'm optimistic we will get it sorted out someday.


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## mmcmdl

I've never seen Chinese machines in any shop I've worked in/with , for good reason .  I'll take good condition American Iron over these kits any day of the week . JMO and your mileage may vary .


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## Bi11Hudson

Although with nothing useful to say, I've just got to jump into this one. While I have an Atlas/Craftsman 12X36 that is about American as I am, we both date around the same time and our ancestry is similar. Although my roots go back a bit further (~1620ish). On the other hand, I also have a Chinese 9X19, actually Taiwanese. (Grizzly G1550) Having worked and traveled in the western Pacific for several years, I must differentiate Taiwan and mainland China. Of course my time there predates the release of Hong Kong, around 40 years back. But even today, a Taiwan machine is superior by far to a Chinese machine in a generally comparable price range. A good example of that difference being Harbor Freight versus Grizzly.

What I saw in the Pacific Rim was a distinct difference of construction of buildings, mostly earthquake and typhoon resistant concrete. While there were many (south) Korean crews on the jobs, I suspect North Korean or Chinese oversight. As well as many Korean and Chinese businesses. Much of my time was on Guam, where there were some socially acceptable businesses and some not so acceptable. I suppose your personal attitudes about strip clubs determine that. Every club I worked in or visited was Chinese. In almost every case, the Chinese were not about to accept American standards of workmanship. If it would stand for now and was cheap, it was satisfactory to them. They simply would not pay for American workmanship.

I could go on for hours, particularly in the Micronesian arena. But much of the work was locals that had learned from outsiders. If they learned from Americans (usually Navy Seabees) the work was pretty good. If they had learned from Chinese or Koreans, it was not so good. My work for the US Navy and US Air Force was all on bases on Guam as an electrician. I saw no Asians beyond a few Phillipinos at the Public Works shops. When I went to work on computers for Pacific Data Systems, I came in contact with more Asians than US nationals. Particularly the service people for Wang Computers. Wang of course was a US company (Boston, Mass), but Mr An Wang, the inventor, was Chinese. The people of Guam are born US citizens since 1898. Once they are known, it is possible to differentiate them from other Micronesian peoples. All in all, an interesting few years.

.


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## graham-xrf

The point made by @Bi11Hudson is apt. Some cultures seemingly never aspire to the kind of surroundings and ways that are the norms in USA / European / Pacific. I use Google street-view, and look at the obscure places. In Africa, there are fine buildings that date back to early last century, still in use, but still showing wear and tear, and the bullet holes. Streets that are never swept. Nobody paints the place. You can find those videos of exemplary and skilled engineering being carried out in filthy alcoves in Karachi back streets. The reality of much of what I knew in Africa seems to have "gone backwards". There are exceptions. A place like Swakopmund (Namibia) is fabulous, though entirely based on tourism. Really horrid are the back streets of Santiago. Incredibly clean and crime-free is Haifa. Contrast Longyearbyen (Svalbard, Norway) with almost any working street in Pakistan.

*Straightfoward machine items*
I have some ground reference test bars for lathe alignment, listed as "proudly made in India". A precision test bar is hardly rocket science! I would have expected something like that could be had from Sheffield (UK), or Buffalo (NY) without looking way overpriced! Here, engineering companies only want to be into big, very high tech, with prices into six and seven digits. Build satellites, or have a screwdriver assembly factory putting together cars for export - from imported parts!  It seems the Chinese, Indians, Taiwanese, Koreans and others may be providing the bits from the nuts, bolts, and screws on up.

However convenient, and low cost, I just can't feel the same about Chinese machine stuff as even an old used South Bend. Nor is it something sentimental (I don't think). It can't reasonably be "western cultural identity nationalism" either. Even though in UK now, was born in Africa.


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## addertooth

This has always been an interesting and very complex topic.  To really understand it, the scope of time has to begin back in Europe, before America had any significant manufacturing capability.

     When the USA started to manufacture products, the Europeans were very proud of their "old world craftsmanship", and viewed almost everything made in the USA as markedly inferior. American Companies preferred European crafted tooling for their factories, but made the choice to buy American-made equipment due to the difference in price. Much of the American equipment was "derived" (copied) from European designs.   In this time period, American equipment was analogous to how the less expensive Chinese equipment is viewed today.

  Then, World War II happened.  There was a greater need for precision produced products.  There was a greater focus on precision, not just from the tools, but also the workers (in large numbers) were indoctrinated with the concept of Precision and Repeatability of the product.  Keep in mind, that many of those workers had ridden in horse and buggies as a child, and not all had electrical power in their homes yet.  The cities were technological wonders, but as you moved away from the cities, a less-technical public lived.

  Post World War II, much of Europe's manufacturing might had been bombed and destroyed.  American manufacturing was intact, and raced in to fill the void which existed in world-wide production.  It was boom days for the American manufacturing industries.  Average wages climbed and the American dream of owning homes thrived (we shifted away from 2 and 3 generations living in a single home, like the Walton's show on TV).

  The first steps towards Asian production began in Post-War Japan.  Under post-war reconstruction of Japan, the USA government spent a lot of money, and sent experts to help get their production methods and processes modernized.  This resulted in an explosion in products which proudly showed the "made in Japan" label.   Less than 15 years later, Japan was recognized as a production powerhouse (but many Americans held onto the belief that Japanese products were inferior.  (We were the ones who were using the "craftsmanship argument, which Europe had held against our products a century before).

  There was an equivalent (and later) set of similar actions which happened in Taiwan.  The results were similar.

  Large American and European countries set their eyes on China as a great source of inexpensive labor.  Much like the early American production, the workforce had not yet been indoctrinated in the culture of accuracy and repeatability.  They had many of the same struggles.  Like early American companies, they copied existing successful designs to produce products.

   The "dark side" is also a worthy story.  American companies, such as Briggs and Stratton pushed production to China.  They imagined the profits from reducing production costs.  They did initially realize greater profits.  But in true China-fashion, soon other engine-making businesses sprung up (under other names and ownership) producing an engine which looked/acted/ran like the classical Briggs and Stratton design.  It turned out that Briggs and Stratton started facing stiff competition from cheaper sources (which used the design which they had taught the Chinese how to make).  Many in the industry are expecting Briggs and Stratton to face eventual closure.  This example is emblematic across multiple industries which moved manufacturing to China, set up the tooling, and trained the workforce in the production of their main product.  Once you teach another nation how to "make stuff", you will eventually face them as a competitor.

   This is where we are today.  China still struggles with much of it's population straddling pre-industrial for it's older members, and fully industrial for the younger citizens.  Industrialization is rapidly becoming a core part of their society, with the associated increase in the values of accuracy and repeatability.  I fully expect to see some "Taiwan quality" level of products emerging from China in about a Decade (if historical patterns hold true).  It always starts with a push to familiarize the working public with key values and principles which lead to this outcome.

A later post post-script after review: (To do a truly deep dive, we would have to go back to Greek times, when they considered Romans primitive, and later, the Romans who made fun of the stick and grass huts the Europeans were living in, but that is too much history to cover).  Neither were doing (significant) production work, but they understood making goods of "enduring value", and precision.  You could argue the manufacture of Amphora to transport wine and olive oil were mass production products.  You could also argue their production of very similar war-ships and weapons were a production effort.  They set up specialized tooling (and standards) to achieve these repeatable results.

"All good industrialized societies START, with educating the working public to the concepts of A Standard, Precision, and Repeatability".
You have to teach the workforce, that variations in results are "unacceptable", and not simply a "personality" for the product.


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## Winegrower

Really all this could have been and was predicted long ago.   As long as labor rates are significantly different for similar skills around the world, work will migrate to the lower cost producers.   For example, we see India as a new low cost supplier of our hobby type equipment, but they are also solidly into software development.  

The difficult and troublesome fact is that if you don't manufacture or produce the current generation, you can't design the next generation.   A huge amount of US based design is really "specification" of what you want built next time.   

Since there is no geographic, national or racial boundaries for creativity, this will continue until wages and productivity tend to equalize around the world.

So says me.


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## sdelivery

A BIG part of the problem was when the end user i.e. the consumer decided they would get the two dollar Chinese pliers instead of the 20.00 made in USA...I heard it all around me for years....
"I only need it for this , so if it works one time for me" and "I don't care, I can buy ten for this price"
Many didn't realize that, slowly they were giving away jobs.
In some industries there can be enough support businesses (companies that provide things to keep the manufacturers manufacturing) and employees that a 500 job loss at the manufacturer can be another 50 to 500 at support businesses. 
A World economy puts your American high paying jobs directly in competition with under developed back alley workers jobs.  20.00 per hour or 20.00 per day.
Which looks appealing to a business for profit?
Then you have the legal angle.  Now that so much is dropped off unboxed in container load quanity and boxed here under a variety of labels, the ability to seek retribution from the manufacturer is about gone.
We hit a point in this country where you couldn't do anything with out the possibility of being sued.
Look at all the labels and little printed papers that come with these products...in short it says they can only be liable for the value of the product. So if that Chinese disc brake rotor fails and you get into a catastrophic accident they can only be sued for the 19.95 rotor you bought. The American manufacturers were being hammered with bs law suits, it became settle out of court it will be cheaper.
Now we need more insurance....who do you think is going to pay for that....the end user WHO ELSE?


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## woodchucker

Winegrower said:


> Really all this could have been and was predicted long ago.   As long as labor rates are significantly different for similar skills around the world, work will migrate to the lower cost producers.   For example, we see India as a new low cost supplier of our hobby type equipment, but they are also solidly into software development.
> 
> The difficult and troublesome fact is that if you don't manufacture or produce the current generation, you can't design the next generation.   A huge amount of US based design is really "specification" of what you want built next time.
> 
> Since there is no geographic, national or racial boundaries for creativity, this will continue until wages and productivity tend to equalize around the world.
> 
> So says me.


they won't equalize... we are in decline. Many today are half the intelligence of our parents generation.
Just watched a little street walking .. like Jay Leno's Jay walking... most people could not answer basic questions... it was sad. They could answer movie, tv, but not intelligence questions...   It's sad, but many could not point out the USA on a map... WTF..

we are becoming a third world country. My second or third grade teacher predicted this. she said it was a cycle.. we would have high wages and be pushed out of buying our own products, other countries would come in and undercut us... eventually we will be a third world country and the cycle will repeat..... we will be low wage and start making again... but that can take generations to happen.

When you look at the roman empire and the dark ages... you really can see how decline looks... it's not pretty. based on some politics now.. it's clear, we have 2 extremes trying to dumb us down.


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## Winegrower

woodchucker said:


> they won't equalize... we are in decline.


That is equalization at work.


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## RJSakowski

You're talking about a country that can send rockets to the moon and put satellites in orbit.  That isn't done with crappy machining.  So what is the difference?  The difference is the lack of quality control.  Many US companies having products made often don't have a good quality system in place for in-process and final inspection in the country of origin.  Furthermore, they don't have a process for stateside final inspection of product either. 

I don't believe that the Chinese intentionally make bad machines.  This is probably best indicated by the perception that you can get a very serviceable machine or a piece of junk from the same manufacturer.  The difference is spotting the problems during the manufacturing process because once they move on to the next phase, they often become invisible

I have purchased a number of Chinese made machines from Grizzly that clearly hadn't been uncrated since they were put on the boat, even though Grizzly maintained that they were each inspected stateside.  A proper final inspection doesn't mean simply, "yep, there's a machine in there".  But what sets Grizzly a cut above HF is they at least have properly trained inspection teams over the pond.  They still have to work on their in-process inspection, as indicated by the hidden defects many of us have discovered. 

The Tormach mill that I purchased is a Chinese product and generally fairly decent.  If anything, I  would fault the design more than the workmanship but that is a strictly American design.  There were some issues though like wires simply twisted together and taped on the coolant system motor and the cooling fan.  I also had a spindle bearing fail early on and received a replacement spindle cartridge.  The runout for the replacement cartridge was terrible, around .015".  When the cartridge was balance, shallow holes were drilled in the end of the spindle to balance it but the burrs from the drilling process were never cleaned up so when the TTS tooling was used, the burrs would bias the tooling creating the runout.

For the most part, the portable tools that I have purchased in the past decade have been well made.  This is also true for the electronic equipment  purchased.  I attribute this to better QC processes enforced by the American brand owners.


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## addertooth

Winegrower said:


> Really all this could have been and was predicted long ago.   As long as labor rates are significantly different for similar skills around the world, work will migrate to the lower cost producers.   For example, we see India as a new low cost supplier of our hobby type equipment, but they are also solidly into software development.
> 
> The difficult and troublesome fact is that if you don't manufacture or produce the current generation, you can't design the next generation.   A huge amount of US based design is really "specification" of what you want built next time.
> 
> Since there is no geographic, national or racial boundaries for creativity, this will continue until wages and productivity tend to equalize around the world.
> 
> So says me.


I largely agree with what you say.   The only exception would be the regional differences in "expectation of what is an acceptable standard of living".  In the USA and Europe, we expect water and electricity which runs 24 hours a day, with five-9s reliability.  We also expect climate control for our homes.   We expect easy transportation to and from work (which in the USA means usable roads and one car (or more) parked in front of our houses.  Dare I mention we expect cell phones, TV shows on-demand, and pre-produced food available. 

These things do not exist world wide, and the public in other places don't (yet) see them as the Minimum standard for lifestyle.  They can live cheaper, and can have a good lifestyle (compared to their immediate neighbors) with a smaller income.  A good example of this was mentioned earlier (software programmers in India).  They will write programs at a much lower cost (and sometimes the end-results are hilarious, as they are unfamiliar with the English language in some cases).   Until the standard of living is the same world-wide, there will always be cheaper places to "live".  This will make the demand for salary smaller in those areas.  It is hard to compete when the cost of living in some areas are markedly below 20 dollars a day, and yet you can get a computer programmer from those areas.  

The cost of living differential has a strong effect on the wages demanded by the people who live there.  Even here in the USA, when headhunters call me with a "job opportunity", I tell them my expected wages go UP, if it is in a region where cost of living is higher (coastal areas, or high-cost cities like New York or Denver).


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## BGHansen

I was a project engineer at General Motors and worked quite a bit with Chinese manufacturers.  My impression was they made every attempt to make parts to the drawing, but back in the day lacked the experience of problem solving issues.

An example was a problem at the GM Shanghai assembly plant around 20 years ago.  They were in the process of shutting the plant down because the nuts with a captured free-spin washer that secured the drop links to the stabilizer bars were breaking.  They didn't break on the initial torque rundown, but popped after 12 hours or less.  Their yard was full of cars needing nuts replaced and they had no idea what to do or how to figure out what the problem was.

I got called in to their problem solving meetings.  The problem sounded to me like something called hydrogen embrittlement in the captured washer.  Fasteners are typically plated/coated and cleaned ahead of plating/coating.  Typically an acid wash is used.  However, if a steel washer is acid-washed (all acids contain hydrogen) before plating/coating, it needs to be "cooked" at ~400 F after plating to boil the hydrogen out of the steel.  Otherwise, the hydrogen can migrate into the microstructure of the steel which can lead to fractures when the part is subsequently put under load.  The failure surfaces within 24 hours; no crack after 24 hours under load, no problem.

I mentioned that they should look at their stock dates and see if there was another date that could be used.  Their failure rate was over 25%.  The failure happened to be what we called a binomial distribution; it's either okay or not okay.  I don't have the chart handy, but there's a stats chart that gives the number of samples that need to be tested based on failure rate to prove within a confidence level if you have fixed the problem or not.  I recall the number of samples needing to be around 12 for 95% confidence with the 25% failure rate.

Take 12 nuts from each of your manufacture dates and run the drop links down on stabilizer bars.  Come back 24 hours later and see if any have cracked.  If they have, quarantine that stock date.  It's what we called "prequalifying material".  I had to elaborate on that term with them.  "Guys, if you have lug nuts that don't want to run down on the wheel studs, take the lug nuts off line and run them down on a loose knuckle (assuming you've proven the studs are okay).  Prequalify the lug nuts before taking them to the line".  To us in the USA who'd been doing this for years, it was "Problem Solving 101".  To my Chinese colleagues who lacked the experience, it was rocket science.  They were super-eager to learn, a number of their lead guys came to the USA to train with our statistical engineering group and get some reps under their belt.  We'd occasionally get some of their product in our audit area to review, they did a very fine job putting their cars together.

I also had some experience with low-level Chinese vendors who cared about profit, not so much about quality.  I had a problem with peel and stick emblems literally falling off the car.  We did a wet-out test and the parts failed.  Then came the arguments that I don't miss as I recently retired.  They'd do the same wet-out test and have the parts fail, but still wanted us to use them. . .  "Guys, would you expect your company to print badges for you with a few letters missing from your name and call that okay?  Of course not.  General Motors will not accept cars in the field with the name plate "B ick".  We are selling a Buick, not a B ick".

Summarizing, the Chinese can do as good of work as anyone on the planet.  They (and any other country) can put out crap too.  Depends on what's important to you.  We used the line, "cost, quality and timing; pick two".  If you want it for really cheap/quickly, don't expect high quality.

I've learned the buy once, cry once lesson over the years, but still forget it on occasion.  A lot depends on my project and the accuracy needed.

Bruce


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## addertooth

BGHansen,

But the ultimate test is Who can make parts with less external quality control.   Some societies have historically had good quality control (and production), without sending a team over to "enhance" their production.  Those successful companies have already learned the key lessons, 50 years before, and include them in their standards of production.  Those more capable companies do charge more. 

I had an engineer under me whose previous job had been to help a Chinese semiconductor company fabricate a chip, which had a 50% failure rate when they came off their production floor.  Even worse, they were not detecting the failed parts, and so the shipping cost to the US (and world market) was an issue. The parts were made under a US company, which previously had made the part.   You can add to problems, all the future sales which were lost, when the customers had to seek a more reliable source.  

Any culture which is new to making parts will have a serious problem with infant-mortality in their products.  They frequently will not have taken the time to READ about what it takes to make a durable product.


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## graham-xrf

For @BGHansen  and @addertooth I do agree.
I think that, in the absence of a coercive regulatory pressure, standards progressively slip as companies invent their own. At times, there are attempts to hang together with common standards on various technologies, but they are just as often a profit-motivated attempt to dominate a market. When needs must, like when a whole nation must pull together, standards are enforced by state coercion. From Napoleon to the Ministry for War. Arguably, even the full adoption of a standard unit of length in USA (1inch = 2.540cm exactly) was forced via the adoption of Johanson's gauge blocks, and the help of Henry Ford.  Eli Whitney may have faked his first demonstration of interchangeable gun parts, but the intent was there, and he got it right in the end.

The South Bends, of which mine are example, were made for wartime need. They were made without frills. Nobody spent too much time grinding off casting joint flashings, and any surface that did not have to be machined was just painted. Yet in the same machines, they were built very strongly, and with no compromise in putting in precision where it needed to be. I suppose this is why my 70-year old machine could still turn precision parts. Probably not the first time military needs drives along the best engineering!

I am happy to mess with my stuff, to make them better, in effect putting some of my stamp on the Chinese kit.
One has to admire the way Stefan re-brands his kit. The originally Taiwanese Vertex rotary table, re-branded as "Optimum" in Germany, after some insane reworking into a no-compromise scraped up thing of beauty, gets a new nameplate.




Do something like that - after you have sufficiently  "Americanized" your Grizzly, or Precision Matthews, or whatever.


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## Shotgun

One thing I have noticed. . . a thing that the American's didn't have the advantage of when taking over for the Europeans. . . is that Chinese companies read their online reviews.  I have bought parts several times that had a particularly bad aspect called out several times in reviews.  When I got the part, I could see that the problem had been addressed.

It has happened enough, that I pay attention to the dates on reviews of something I'm considering buying.  If the review is a year or older, there is often a good chance that the problem will have been addressed.

. . . and sometimes I get paperweights.


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## graham-xrf

I still feel it a disappointment that the same trousers, but different pockets, is producing much of the planet's Teslas in Shanghai, while providing the next space launch vehicles in USA.


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## addertooth

All I can say is that his SF328 forms (where an American company has to disclose it's foreign interest), must be interesting for Elon Musk.  For certain military-related contracts, a company must disclose all of it's foreign entanglements before any contract is awarded.  If the foreign contacts are "too deep or entangled", it often serves as a reason to deny a contract.


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## ericc

You have to be so careful these days.  There is so much junk floating around that you cannot take anything for granted.  I am helping to tool up a new manufacturing facility, and we have decided to buy old used tools wherever we can, since we have had too many disappointments.  I mentioned an imported plasma cutter that died after just one job.  The facility manager told me to simmer down, since it paid for itself many times over with that job.  There is no way that the importer will take that machine back on warranty or fix it.  He just took it home and is still trying to fix it.  Another problem with buying new tools off Craigslist these days is that the places you get them look so seedy with all the piles of new tools in cartons.  Looks too much like a theft ring.  Only old used tools unless it is an emergency.

These are indeed strange times.  Soon, all the old tools will be gone, and we'll be dependent on Amazon and Reddit reviews.


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## matthewsx

vtcnc said:


> I think when the real historians in the world finally get the non-politicalized story of globalisation straightened out, it will tell the story of how nearly a billion people in two developing countries came out of subsistence farming and urban poverty and became part of the working middle class and will describe all of the problems and wonders that come along with that transformation.
> 
> China went from stealing, copying, and arguably still struggling to make a quality product to eventually having their own global powerhouse industries. This is still playing out and it is fraught with compromises, unfulfilled standards, broken promises, etc., i.e. China and India's industries are still getting sorted out and I think time will tell if they can meet global needs and standards.
> 
> And the history books will tell a story about how many companies in the original industrialist countries played games with quality to stay alive. Cutting corners, figuring out ways to cheat on costs, exploiting others to make marginal gains while losing focus on their craft. What we are witnessing is miraculous and ugly at the same time.
> 
> On the other hand, it is hard to grasp how many great manufacturers are out there. They are just so many trying to make good products, its just that many of them aren't making smaller machining equipment. I'm optimistic we will get it sorted out someday.


Thank you.

We will all do well to remember that we are one planet and we’re all doing the best we can with what we have.

Businesses exist to make money for their investors, good ones will succeed and marginal ones will be replaced.

Fortunately as a hobby I can choose what to work with by whatever criteria I want.

John


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## vtcnc

graham-xrf said:


> I still feel it a disappointment that the same trousers, but different pockets, is producing much of the planet's Teslas in Shanghai, while providing the next space launch vehicles in USA.


Disappointing, yes. Surprising given all of the incentives and disincentives we can easily point to? No.


Firebrick43 said:


> Working for caterpillar and seeing/experiencing Chinese issues, very much the same, I found that you couldn't trust them to do the right thing unless you supervised them constantly.  Its as if they lacked the personal morals to "do the right thing".  They would constantly attempt (individually and as a team) to pass and send crap.  I have to imagine it was the complete destruction of the old time values in the 50's-60's that lead to this moral decline as a whole.  The Taiwanese are ethnic Chinese and don't share this issue.
> 
> Now I am not saying there are not hucksters/liars/ and hacks in America, there is, I have witnessed it.  But I have never witnessed it happen as a team or wide spread.  The wheat is separated from the chaff pretty quickly here in my experience


I worked for a global battery manufacturer for several years and spent time in plants in China, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore and Indonesia. Honestly, I didn't see much of an appreciable difference - meaning in the context of people of eastern descent and western descent.


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## vtcnc

ericc said:


> You have to be so careful these days.  There is so much junk floating around that you cannot take anything for granted.  I am helping to tool up a new manufacturing facility, and we have decided to buy old used tools wherever we can, since we have had too many disappointments.  I mentioned an imported plasma cutter that died after just one job.  The facility manager told me to simmer down, since it paid for itself many times over with that job.  There is no way that the importer will take that machine back on warranty or fix it.  He just took it home and is still trying to fix it.  Another problem with buying new tools off Craigslist these days is that the places you get them look so seedy with all the piles of new tools in cartons.  Looks too much like a theft ring.  Only old used tools unless it is an emergency.
> 
> These are indeed strange times.  Soon, all the old tools will be gone, and we'll be dependent on Amazon and Reddit reviews.


I'm confused. A "new manufacturing facility" and the decision was to buy old used tools? Because of too many disappointments? You are referring to being disappointed by imported machine tools, correct? Can you give an example besides the plasma cutter?

Buying new tools off Craigslist? Is this done today? What kind of machine tools are purchased off Craigslist today?


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## ericc

I buy machine tools off Craigslist!  I tried to sell my junk lathe that I bought from Craigslist to the fellow who was building the automatic door latches for the company.  He said, I only need to do 30 doors, so why don't I just borrow it.  He did a fantastic job, no glitches, and returned the lathe spotless.  So, a Craigslist lathe actually made some real parts.

As for disappointments, I fell for that 6" chuck scam on Ebay.  I thought the chucks were from the US, since they were shipped from Chino, CA.  One of the tool guys said, "you idiot, don't you know Chino is China in Spanish."  I know where Chino is.  It's in Southern California.  Apparently, this chuck was actually being shipped from Malaysia.  At least that's what the tracking said.  It never ended up arriving, but at least Ebay gave me my money back.  I also bought one of those Ebay dead centers.  It had a carbide point and was advertised as RC68.  The one I got was soft when touched with a file.  It was made of mild steel.  I complained, and the seller told me to send a photo.  I did, and he said that they sent the wrong one.  They refunded me $1.

Somebody criticized me for pulling two fails in a row.  He said I must be pretty stupid, since all his friends make excellent purchases from Chinese sources like Aliexpress and Banggood.  It was sort of an acquired knack, and apparently impossible to teach to dinosaurs.  He said that it was a sign of class division.  The successful ones will rise into the future by embracing the new way, while the failures will stick to their old ways, wondering why nothing goes right for them.

By the way, I ended up getting a 6" chuck off Craigslist.  It turned out not to be Chinese made, but it was a high quality Taiwanese one and it was new!  Admittedly, it cost a little more, actually a lot more, than that fake Ebay chuck, but it was tight and nice.  The guy selling it was a retiring machinist and he was glad that it went to someone who would use it rather than flipping it.  Unfortunately, I never used it.  I made and threaded a back plate for it, but before I could use it, I responded to an ad in Craigslist for South Bend lathe gears.  They were $150.  Not bad, but the cardboard box appeared to also contain at least two chucks.  When I arrived to pick up the purchase, I discovered that the box also contained a South Bend steady rest, and a couple of knurling tools.  The steady rest was no use to me, since I made one, but if I had it earlier, it would have saved me a lot of work.  The knurling tools were great, and worked first time.  Both of the chucks were good ol' US brands (Skinner) and they were rusty but in good shape after a soaking in oil and cleaning.  I was afraid something was bad, but the chuck worked just fine.  Made a bunch of parts with it.

Sorry for all the stories.  But you asked.


----------



## Cadillac

I see a lot of machine tool businesses reselling old iron on CL. Buy at auction prices sell at hefty resale price. Good business in my book.


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## Aaron_W

Cheap tools are probably better today than they ever have been. Everybody loves vintage tools, but we are self selecting, we love the quality vintage tools, and tend to overlook the cheap vintage stuff which is out there although not in large number because it wasn't good.

I'm going to throw the AA made Craftsman 6" mini-lathe (this is not the Atlas made 6" lathe) under the bus here as an example. In 1949 these sold for $43 without a motor. The recommended 1/4hp motor added $53.50 (yes the motor cost more than the lathe). In 2022 that would be $512 for the lathe + $638 for the motor = $1150. Personally I think these are cool little lathes within their limits, but honestly a $700 7x12 Chinese mini-lathe is better in every regard except looks (those AA lathes are quite attractive and look much better than they work).

The US Auto industry turned off a generation of potential customers with the turds they were cranking out in the 1970s and early 80s. Trucks excepted, 1/2 ton and larger is something they managed not to screw up. The small trucks were (and mostly still are) all rebadged imports, Mazda (Ford), Isuzu (Chevy) or Mitsubishi (Dodge).


You really can't blame China, you have to blame the people contracting the work. Contractors worldwide will only do what is in the contract, and nothing more than that. Writing a good contract and doing compliance checks for overseas manufacturing is an acquired skill, those with experience tend to do fairly well, those lacking experience or just trying to cut costs to the minimum, not so much. Seperate from the manufacture, many sellers of cheap import tools are sketchy at best, so buying from a reputable seller helps a lot, but adds to the price.

Cheap tools from any source requires some work from the buyer, there are right and wrong places to save money. Vintage tools also require some work from the buyer. Just assuming a tool is good because it is old and made in the USA, Europe or Japan is a good way to buy a used up piece of junk.

I don't like supporting the current Chinese government so given the option I prefer to shop elsewhere. Sometimes there is an option, sometimes not so much. Just dismissing Chinese made products as junk is extremally simplistic. The buyer should be evaluating the quality of every purchase regardless of the source.


----------



## addertooth

When I buy Chinese-made shop equipment, I like to go through a reputable American intermediary. 
This way, I have a local contact to get problems resolved, and a lower shipping cost for returns.
They act much like a condom, to isolate the badness, when you are dating a sketchy girl.  

I have been pretty pleased with the Chinese lathe from Little Machine Shop, and although my mill was from Taiwan,
it was comforting to get it through Precision Matthews.  Another layer of protection can be well worth paying for.


----------



## graham-xrf

Aaron_W said:


> The US Auto industry turned off a generation of potential customers with the turds they were cranking out in the 1970s and early 80s. Trucks excepted, 1/2 ton and larger is something they managed not to screw up. The small trucks were (and mostly still are) all re-badged imports, Mazda (Ford), Isuzu (Chevy) or Mitsubishi (Dodge).


There is a fondness for the pre-millennium 4x4 flatbeds, which receive significant restoration attention. The extent to which they have rotted out, and what one discovers in the saga to fix them up, does reveal the places where the build was skimped on. The more considered repairs, meaning removing sloppy patch-ups and doing it right, yield a vehicle that exceeds it's USA factory specification, even if it still shows the wounds of it's previous life. Ford, Chevrolet, Jeep Cherokee, and others are the favourites. Japanese flatbeds seem to be less iconic, except perhaps Toyota Hilux, and that from a fame gained as vehicle useful for being fitted up with weaponry.

For insight into the real manufacturing shortcomings, there is the restoration by -->  Steve Summers on his 1985 Chevy K10
There are even songs from South Africa, with a ton of humour about choosing a Ford over a Hilux. From my relatives in Australia, the same stuff is going on. Yes, there is American, and Japanese, and Korean. Not so much Chinese! Maybe I am not up to date on this, but it may be there are more Chinese parts in American brands than driving around under their own banner. Foton? Sinotruck? Shacman? Dongfeng?


Aaron_W said:


> I don't like supporting the current Chinese government so given the option I prefer to shop elsewhere. Sometimes there is an option, sometimes not so much. Just dismissing Chinese made products as junk is extremally simplistic. The buyer should be evaluating the quality of every purchase regardless of the source.


Yes - there is that! I avoided it in the first posting. The "quality" of a purchase is the quality of the product divided by the price. If there is not much difference, the buyer may be driven by other sentiments. I wonder if the graph of Chinese exports is starting to shift a little.


----------



## Firebrick43

vtcnc said:


> Disappointing, yes. Surprising given all of the incentives and disincentives we can easily point to? No.
> 
> I worked for a global battery manufacturer for several years and spent time in plants in China, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore and Indonesia. Honestly, I didn't see much of an appreciable difference - meaning in the context of people of eastern descent and western descent.


I was very specific, I never said of eastern decent, or even ethnic Chinese as I very clearly said I didn't see it out of the Taiwanese.  Nor did I out of the Okinawans, Philippines, Koreans, or Thai cultures that I witnessed when I was in the USMC.


----------



## vtcnc

Firebrick43 said:


> I was very specific, I never said of eastern decent, or even ethnic Chinese as I very clearly said I didn't see it out of the Taiwanese.  Nor did I out of the Okinawans, Philippines, Koreans, or Thai cultures that I witnessed when I was in the USMC.


Sorry if I came across as putting words in your mouth. That wasn't my intention. I was only trying to say that my experience in that region where China dominates, I don't necessarily see a difference between workers.


----------



## rabler

I have to wonder how much the Internet, online buying, has factored into the Chinese import market.  We all prefer to spend less money on something, all else being equal.  Internet marketing removes the ability to hands on inspect something, and the impression of quality can be as much an artifact of photoshop as anything else.  

Having worked with many foreign engineering graduate students, I have seen a lot of cultural differences.  But that has little impact on quality.  Nobody would continue to market low quality goods if they didn't sell.


----------



## Shotgun

Aaron_W said:


> The US Auto industry turned off a generation of potential customers with the turds they were cranking out in the 1970s and early 80s. Trucks excepted, 1/2 ton and larger is something they managed not to screw up. The small trucks were (and mostly still are) all rebadged imports, Mazda (Ford), Isuzu (Chevy) or Mitsubishi (Dodge).
> 
> 
> You really can't blame China, you have to blame the people contracting the work. Contractors worldwide will only do what is in the contract, and nothing more than that. Writing a good contract and doing compliance checks for overseas manufacturing is an acquired skill, those with experience tend to do fairly well, those lacking experience or just trying to cut costs to the minimum, not so much. Seperate from the manufacture, many sellers of cheap import tools are sketchy at best, so buying from a reputable seller helps a lot, but adds to the price.


Hear!  Hear!
Years ago I bought a DeWalt 9V battery drill.  I specifically paid triple the price to get a DeWalt, because the last one I had lasted for 10yrs of my abuse.  The battery died in 3 months. The replacement battery lasted about 6.

Whether is was Made in the USA (TM), or a sweat shop in China is beside the point.  I paid extra for a good name, and got the shaft.  My assumption (made without evidence) is that some MBA came in with a bright idea on how to save a dollar or two of manufacturing cost on each unit.  I saw that happen firsthand while working at Appliance Park for GE in Louisville, KY.  

I've now standardized all of my battery tools on Ryobi.


----------



## addertooth

Yep, brand and company names are now a "well of good-will" to be harvested.   A company will build a reputation for a solid product, and then sell inferior products under that name.  Usually, the warning signs can be seen, when that company releases a "new premium line".  It usually happens when they are about to (or, have just started), to degrade the quality of their well-reputed brand.  I see this often in hand-held power tools.  

Watch for when Ryobi starts a new "premium line".  This will mark the moment they have cheapened the standard products they are making under the established Ryobi name. It will likely use a different battery, so you cannot use the new "improved battery design", with their legacy models.


----------



## WobblyHand

Bad parts can be shipped from nearly every manufacturer.  Some manufacturers have lower rates than others.  What matters in the end, is there is a mechanism which can make the purchaser whole should a defective part be received.  I am testing this at the moment.  Believe I received a defective American made part.  Found out about it yesterday.  Attempting an exchange.  Should it be successful, it will be good.


----------



## WobblyHand

WobblyHand said:


> Bad parts can be shipped from nearly every manufacturer.  Some manufacturers have lower rates than others.  What matters in the end, is there is a mechanism which can make the purchaser whole should a defective part be received.  I am testing this at the moment.  Believe I received a defective American made part.  Found out about it yesterday.  Attempting an exchange.  Should it be successful, it will be good.


Success!  Got a bad saw arbor.  McMaster is replacing it, no need to return defective part.  Outstanding company.


----------



## graham-xrf

Aaron_W said:


> The US Auto industry turned off a generation of potential customers with the turds they were cranking out in the 1970s and early 80s. Trucks excepted, 1/2 ton and larger is something they managed not to screw up. The small trucks were (and mostly still are) all rebadged imports, Mazda (Ford), Isuzu (Chevy) or Mitsubishi (Dodge).


Being more aware of UK/European product, I never knew the USA re-badged imports also meant a whole Ford, or a Chevy. What of a vehicle assembled in the USA? Might that be put together with some percentage of import parts? Maybe as much as 100%?

This begs the question, what consumer products in this league can we say are 100% USA, all the way from the casting foundry on up to the last screw? Does anyone in USA manufacture even the screws anymore?


----------



## rabler

Don't know if it is a bottom up, but this group manufacturers screws/bolts in the U.S:
The STANLEY Engineered Fastening manufacturing facility in Decorah, Iowa, has joined facilities in Danbury, Connecticut, and Warrington, England, as leaders in the company’s global sustainability initiative.

They are a supplier for McMaster-Carr, which is how I found them.  Ironically Decorah, Ia is the nearest town big enough to have a Walmart that is close to where my father and brother live.


----------



## davidpbest

BGHansen said:


> I was a project engineer at General Motors and worked quite a bit with Chinese manufacturers.  My impression was they made every attempt to make parts to the drawing, but back in the day lacked the experience of problem solving issues.
> 
> An example was a problem at the GM Shanghai assembly plant around 20 years ago.  They were in the process of shutting the plant down because the nuts with a captured free-spin washer that secured the drop links to the stabilizer bars were breaking.  They didn't break on the initial torque rundown, but popped after 12 hours or less.  Their yard was full of cars needing nuts replaced and they had no idea what to do or how to figure out what the problem was.
> 
> I got called in to their problem solving meetings.  The problem sounded to me like something called hydrogen embrittlement in the captured washer.  Fasteners are typically plated/coated and cleaned ahead of plating/coating.  Typically an acid wash is used.  However, if a steel washer is acid-washed (all acids contain hydrogen) before plating/coating, it needs to be "cooked" at ~400 F after plating to boil the hydrogen out of the steel.  Otherwise, the hydrogen can migrate into the microstructure of the steel which can lead to fractures when the part is subsequently put under load.  The failure surfaces within 24 hours; no crack after 24 hours under load, no problem.
> 
> I mentioned that they should look at their stock dates and see if there was another date that could be used.  Their failure rate was over 25%.  The failure happened to be what we called a binomial distribution; it's either okay or not okay.  I don't have the chart handy, but there's a stats chart that gives the number of samples that need to be tested based on failure rate to prove within a confidence level if you have fixed the problem or not.  I recall the number of samples needing to be around 12 for 95% confidence with the 25% failure rate.
> 
> Take 12 nuts from each of your manufacture dates and run the drop links down on stabilizer bars.  Come back 24 hours later and see if any have cracked.  If they have, quarantine that stock date.  It's what we called "prequalifying material".  I had to elaborate on that term with them.  "Guys, if you have lug nuts that don't want to run down on the wheel studs, take the lug nuts off line and run them down on a loose knuckle (assuming you've proven the studs are okay).  Prequalify the lug nuts before taking them to the line".  To us in the USA who'd been doing this for years, it was "Problem Solving 101".  To my Chinese colleagues who lacked the experience, it was rocket science.  They were super-eager to learn, a number of their lead guys came to the USA to train with our statistical engineering group and get some reps under their belt.  We'd occasionally get some of their product in our audit area to review, they did a very fine job putting their cars together.
> 
> I also had some experience with low-level Chinese vendors who cared about profit, not so much about quality.  I had a problem with peel and stick emblems literally falling off the car.  We did a wet-out test and the parts failed.  Then came the arguments that I don't miss as I recently retired.  They'd do the same wet-out test and have the parts fail, but still wanted us to use them. . .  "Guys, would you expect your company to print badges for you with a few letters missing from your name and call that okay?  Of course not.  General Motors will not accept cars in the field with the name plate "B ick".  We are selling a Buick, not a B ick".
> 
> Summarizing, the Chinese can do as good of work as anyone on the planet.  They (and any other country) can put out crap too.  Depends on what's important to you.  We used the line, "cost, quality and timing; pick two".  If you want it for really cheap/quickly, don't expect high quality.
> 
> I've learned the buy once, cry once lesson over the years, but still forget it on occasion.  A lot depends on my project and the accuracy needed.
> 
> Bruce


Bruce, thanks for your insights on this.  Honest experience is a lot more valuable than sweeping prejudice.  As one of the key players in the migration of semiconductor technologies to Asia back in the 1980’s, my experiences are similar.  As @vtcnc mentioned, China in particular is part-way through a migration from a rural agarian culture to a technology powerhouse.  Part of this transition has required a cultural mindset shift from “this is good enough” to “this is excellence”.   

Japan went through the same transition 40 years earlier.   I’m old enough to remember when “made in Japan” meant the product was probably junk.  Today, I won’t buy a car that isn’t made in Japan. Taiwan was next in the transition, and is now the largest, and the leading manufacturer of semiconductors in the world (TSMC). And look at what China’s Foxcon has been pumping out for Apple since 2007 (iPhone, etc.). Korea is in this mix, and India is next.

When it comes to the kind of metalworking equipment most of us on this forum use, the incentive to build to highest quality is not there - the consumers are fixated on price above all else, in spite of their continual grousing about crappy quality.  I’ve had lengthy discussions with some of the importers of mills and lathes encouraging them to develop and offer a premium-priced line with higher quality components and QC to go with it, and the response is the same: “the market for that just doesn’t exist - price is king until you get to equipment costing $15K or more.  Users would rather have a crappy DRO bundled into the machine than have the same costs applied to tighter tolerances, better materials, or an  industrial paint job.”  

Personally, I’m in the Stefan Gotteswinter camp.  Much of this equipment should be regarded as “kits” with plenty of potential if you put in the time to tear them down and rebuild them to higher standards.  That’s exactly what I have done with my Precision Matthews equipment made in Taiwan.  Some marvel at the results, while still others jeer at me with total confusion about my ”insane” dedication to excellence.


----------



## vtcnc

graham-xrf said:


> Being more aware of UK/European product, I never knew the USA re-badged imports also meant a whole Ford, or a Chevy. What of a vehicle assembled in the USA. Might that be put together with some percentage of import parts? Maybe as much as 100%?
> 
> This begs the question, what consumer products in this league can we say are 100% USA, all the way from the casting foundry on up to the last screw? Does anyone in USA manufacture even the screws anymore?


Check out where I work. http://www.edlundco.com

There are some parts we source from Asia, but the vast majority of our components are sourced in the US or Made in Vermont.


----------



## Shotgun

vtcnc said:


> Check out where I work. http://www.edlundco.com
> 
> There are some parts we source from Asia, but the vast majority of our components are sourced in the US or Made in Vermont.


As to @davidpbest's point, those do not look like the can openers that I've seen at Walmart.


----------



## davidpbest

Shotgun said:


> As to @davidpbest's point, those do not look like the can openers that I've seen at Walmart.


Agree.  I‘ve been on the phone for 40 minutes now, trying to buy one of their film and foil dispensers.  Someone forgot the first rule in marketing: make it easy to buy.


----------



## WobblyHand

graham-xrf said:


> Does anyone in USA manufacture even the screws anymore?


All of the boxes of imperial screws I have bought from McMaster were manufactured in the USA.  Not true for metric, however.


----------



## matthewsx

vtcnc said:


> Check out where I work. http://www.edlundco.com
> 
> There are some parts we source from Asia, but the vast majority of our components are sourced in the US or Made in Vermont.


The company I work for also produces a high quality product shipped from our headquarters in Scotts Valley, CA. We do build some components in house and also source from around the world. Not quite "Made in USA" we call it "Crafted in California"

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

John


----------



## addertooth

DavidPBest,

Excellent scoped response.  It is good to see that some minds think alike.  The only area I differ will be in the outcome of the quality of work in China.  As India starts to grow in the production of Machine Equipment, this will pressure China to look more carefully at quality control, to distinguish themselves from the inexpensive equipment coming from India.


----------



## vtcnc

davidpbest said:


> Agree.  I‘ve been on the phone for 40 minutes now, trying to buy one of their film and foil dispensers.  Someone forgot the first rule in marketing: make it easy to buy.


We only sell to distributors.


----------



## vtcnc

vtcnc said:


> We only sell to distributors.


Go to Webstaurant...thats the easiest way.


----------



## davidpbest

addertooth said:


> DavidPBest,
> 
> Excellent scoped response.  It is good to see that some minds think alike.  The only area I differ will be in the outcome of the quality of work in China.  As India starts to grow in the production of Machine Equipment, this will pressure China to look more carefully at quality control, to distinguish themselves from the inexpensive equipment coming from India.


Yes, I expect China to improve quality just like Japan did, and Taiwan after them.  And with that will come increased costs of Chinese goods.  Then the importers of sub-$15K equipment such as Precision Matthews, under continuing price pressure from consumers, will replace the Chinese equipment with the lower price and lower quality stuff from India.  And the cycle will continue.


----------



## Shotgun

davidpbest said:


> Yes, I expect China to improve quality just like Japan did, and Taiwan after them.  And with that will come increased costs of Chinese goods.  Then the importers of sub-$15K equipment such as Precision Matthews, under continuing price pressure from consumers, will replace the Chinese equipment with the lower price and lower quality stuff from India.  And the cycle will continue.


I believe Vietnam is next on the "emerging industry" list, and African countries are right behind them.


----------



## starr256

What about the high precision, high reliability equipment required for production of medical, electronic and aerospace products? Where are the best lathes and mills made? Where are the high end CNC machines coming from? Where price is a secondary issue.


----------



## mcostello

If You would watch "Cutting Edge Engineering" You would see an moderatly expensive lathe. It seems to function well. The Chinese seem to be capable of good tooling but the price difference disappears.


----------



## starr256

With respect to mcostello, it is as I would expect. The Indians, Chinese, Koreans make cheap stuff cheaper than Americans can. But they are also capable of making good quality stuff, just not with the disparity in price. My take is that when complaining about cheap stuff, I see no reason to attach a nationality to it. It is cheap stuff made poorly.


----------



## graham-xrf

I would contrast the observation with the case of South Bend, and others, whose products, at the time, were made extremely cheaply, with every possible frill left out, and castings left with rough edges in places where it didn't count. But where it mattered, it was quality! The wartime conditions would account for the work ethic then, and the attitudes of the time. Arguably, this makes up the difference.

Trash is always cheap. Cheap is not always trash. I have a whole lot of Chinese stuff that is "reasonable to good" quality. I get it that the price difference disappears when the quality is high. Is it that there was just that market sector left open, which no western manufacturers wanted to fill?

I also do not think that steady progression through a series of developing nation suppliers is inevitable, nor even likely.


----------



## vtcnc

Shotgun said:


> I believe Vietnam is next on the "emerging industry" list, and African countries are right behind them.



I think India is next. Reason being we are seeing a lot of cast iron goods coming out of India. Fairly well established industry there for motorcycle engines, automobiles and such.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ultradog MN

Sign on the wall in Chinese factory:
Do Not look at laser with remaining eye!


----------



## Charles scozzari

mmcmdl said:


> I've never seen Chinese machines in any shop I've worked in/with , for good reason .  I'll take good condition American Iron over these kits any day of the week . JMO and your mileage may vary .


I agree completely, but have to admit I did jump ship on my 1440 import lathe. I had many 6 and 10"swing used American made lathes that were great machines. The problem for me was I needed more swing, hence the import. Any American or high quality European import with a 14" swing was above my budget. That made the decision as to jumping ship. All in all after tweaking and modifying I am happy with what I have. The other machine was an impulse buy that I have made good use of and am happy I moved on was  a Rong-fu Bench radial arm drill. It was almost new when I got it from a Dana Chassis plant in Pa. that unfortunately was shutting down for $173.00. That said, all else of what I own was made in America before the mass exodus of American company's to china


----------



## Cadillac

You can still buy a clausing or a monarch or a leblond. Many others I’m sure. Manual machines are not feasible at production Work, and CNC is pretty precise too.


----------



## Charles scozzari

Cadillac said:


> You can still buy a clausing or a monarch or a leblond. Many others I’m sure. Manual machines are not feasible at production Work, and CNC is pretty precise too.


Yes, they can be found are out there at reasonable prices, but the cost of shipping would make the purchase depending on it's location twice the cost of the lathe. Along with the problem of securing reliable shipping is the fact that you are buying sight unseen. When I looked at some of the lathes within 100 miles of my location they were in poor to junk condition. But then again sometimes you can/could get lucky and score a good machine close by.  Thank's.


----------



## Janderso

sdelivery said:


> A BIG part of the problem was when the end user i.e. the consumer decided they would get the two dollar Chinese pliers instead of the 20.00 made in USA...I heard it all around me for years....
> "I only need it for this , so if it works one time for me" and "I don't care, I can buy ten for this price"
> Many didn't realize that, slowly they were giving away jobs.
> In some industries there can be enough support businesses (companies that provide things to keep the manufacturers manufacturing) and employees that a 500 job loss at the manufacturer can be another 50 to 500 at support businesses.
> A World economy puts your American high paying jobs directly in competition with under developed back alley workers jobs.  20.00 per hour or 20.00 per day.
> Which looks appealing to a business for profit?
> Then you have the legal angle.  Now that so much is dropped off unboxed in container load quanity and boxed here under a variety of labels, the ability to seek retribution from the manufacturer is about gone.
> We hit a point in this country where you couldn't do anything with out the possibility of being sued.
> Look at all the labels and little printed papers that come with these products...in short it says they can only be liable for the value of the product. So if that Chinese disc brake rotor fails and you get into a catastrophic accident they can only be sued for the 19.95 rotor you bought. The American manufacturers were being hammered with bs law suits, it became settle out of court it will be cheaper.
> Now we need more insurance....who do you think is going to pay for that....the end user WHO ELSE?


Sometimes my thoughts wander.
I’m reading through these posts, then my host mentions $20 per day. I think back to Henry Ford’s ridiculous $5 a day wage. He made a lot of corporate enemies on that move.
When these company managers report back to their CEO’s and the CEO reports to his stock holders, a long term vision is lost.
Quick profits to boost stock value seems to be the way of the world these days.

I don’t think hard work, a long term vision for your employer and a feeling of pride at the end of the day for what you accomplished will ever be popular again.
I’m not suggesting bringing back the sweat shops of the early 20th century when some of our machines were made.
There is a real difference between my 1960’s Delta band saw and the harbor freight copy.
When you look at the castings on my 1970’s Made in England lathe and the B&S surface grinder then compare the fit and finish on a modern Jet drill press or Grizzly Jointer. There is a significant difference.
Do they all do a good job? In my experience, yes.

So what’s my point? The world has changed and the old ways aren’t coming back. Maybe that’s a good thing? I’m not so sure.


----------



## Charles scozzari

Janderso said:


> Sometimes my thoughts wander.
> I’m reading through these posts, then my host mentions $20 per day. I think back to Henry Ford’s ridiculous $5 a day wage. He made a lot of corporate enemies on that move.
> When these company managers report back to their CEO’s and the CEO reports to his stock holders, a long term vision is lost.
> Quick profits to boost stock value seems to be the way of the world these days.
> 
> I don’t think hard work, a long term vision for your employer and a feeling of pride at the end of the day for what you accomplished will ever be popular again.
> I’m not suggesting bringing back the sweat shops of the early 20th century when some of our machines were made.
> There is a real difference between my 1960’s Delta band saw and the harbor freight copy.
> When you look at the castings on my 1970’s Made in England lathe and the B&S surface grinder then compare the fit and finish on a modern Jet drill press or Grizzly Jointer. There is a significant difference.
> Do they all do a good job? In my experience, yes.
> 
> So what’s my point? The world has changed and the old ways aren’t coming back. Maybe that’s a good thing? I’m not so sure.


No, it's not. That's what got us here.


----------



## Ultradog MN

Charles scozzari said:


> I agree completely, but...



Not picking on you. However, being a fan of irony....

You weigh in on  not buying china machines then list the ones you bought 
I posted in the "What did you buy today thread" that I had recently bought a new Wahlstrom Float Lock drill vise. Now made by Eagle Rock Industries in Bath, Pennsylvania.
I could have bought two cheap China knock-offs for what I paid for it.
But...
 I stuck to my principles and bought the good USA one instead.


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## Aaron_W

Janderso said:


> Sometimes my thoughts wander.
> I’m reading through these posts, then my host mentions $20 per day. I think back to Henry Ford’s ridiculous $5 a day wage. He made a lot of corporate enemies on that move.
> When these company managers report back to their CEO’s and the CEO reports to his stock holders, a long term vision is lost.
> Quick profits to boost stock value seems to be the way of the world these days.
> 
> I don’t think hard work, a long term vision for your employer and a feeling of pride at the end of the day for what you accomplished will ever be popular again.
> I’m not suggesting bringing back the sweat shops of the early 20th century when some of our machines were made.
> There is a real difference between my 1960’s Delta band saw and the harbor freight copy.
> When you look at the castings on my 1970’s Made in England lathe and the B&S surface grinder then compare the fit and finish on a modern Jet drill press or Grizzly Jointer. There is a significant difference.
> Do they all do a good job? In my experience, yes.
> 
> So what’s my point? The world has changed and the old ways aren’t coming back. Maybe that’s a good thing? I’m not so sure.



Agree a lot of bad gets glossed over when looking at "the good old days". Some has changed for the better, some maybe not. Standard of living is generally higher today, and people are living longer but is living longer really worth it when you have to hear about the Kardashions all the time? 

I'm a Henry Ford fan, he was a flawed individual but on the whole I think he really was trying to make the world a better place. He gets kind of dumped on when looked at from a modern view point. The $5/day wage, 8 hour work week and the Henry Ford Trade School alone show more concern for others than most multi-millionaires. Many of his darker aspects were shared by society at large.


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## Charles scozzari

Ultradog MN said:


> Not picking on you. However, being a fan of irony....
> 
> You weigh in on  not buying china machines then list the ones you bought
> I posted in the "What did you buy today thread" that I had recently bought a new Wahlstrom Float Lock drill vise. Now made by Eagle Rock Industries in Bath, Pennsylvania.
> I could have bought two cheap China knock-offs for what I paid for it.
> But...
> I stuck to my principles and bought the good USA one instead.


Hi, I know you're not picking on me, but I made my decision after looking at American lathes that came from production shops and had seen better days, or were offered up in lieu of being scrapped. Others were on the west coast and that was out of the question because you would be buying sight unseen plus the shipping cost. As for the R/F radial arm, at $173.00 I couldn't pass it up. So an import lathe in my situation just made more sense for me to do.  Thank's for you're reply


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## Winegrower

It's amusing, I suppose, that China has become such a manufacturing and exporting powerhouse while many people say "China makes junk".   Remember that quality means "conformance to specifications".   "Junk" comes about because buyers, say US buyers, perceive that they need to meet a price point and work with suppliers to meet that given these specifications.   It's simply the case that most Chinese products meet specifications, and hence rely on sellers to ensure that these specifications meet expectations.   So you could say "buyers specify junk" and be more accurate.

I was responsible at one point for a 36 track magnetic recording head.   There was only one place on the planet, China, where we could in a few weeks have literally 7,500 workers assembling these heads, meeting our cost and performance specs.  

I don't bash China particularly, though I have been in a Cadmium plating shop in Shenzhen, where a greenish smoke filled the whole interior.   I started coughing uncontrollably and had to exit.   These workers did a whole shift in there, no protective equipment at all.   They have OSHA-type work to do, which will affect costs and prices.   Now in many cases China is too expensive and other "Emerging Tigers" have to fill the bill.

My point is that it's us as consumers that ultimately drive the resolution of "quality" vs. cost, and so they frequently go by the motto "nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the public".

Edit:  As a random example, I recently needed a 100KV power supply, on my own dime.   US suppliers, of which there were few, were in the $5K range, never got back to me, made pricing a mysterious process involving quotes and (you hope) calls from sales staff.   But through Alibaba, I got overnight quotes to my spec from three sources, direct email contacts to the sales contact and in a couple days I ordered exactly what I wanted, custom, for less than $2K delivered.   It was quoted for 30 day delivery, and beat that slightly.   It's a beautiful product, and I'm a very happy customer.   Of course I'd prefer to buy US...just couldn't do it, not only for price, but in some areas China has learned to market to us better than we can.


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## Aaron_W

Charles scozzari said:


> Hi, I know you're not picking on me, but I made my decision after looking at American lathes that came from production shops and had seen better days, or were offered up in lieu of being scrapped. Others were on the west coast and that was out of the question because you would be buying sight unseen plus the shipping cost. As for the R/F radial arm, at $173.00 I couldn't pass it up. So an import lathe in my situation just made more sense for me to do.  Thank's for you're reply



There seems to be this idea that buying a USA made machine sold 75 years ago, somehow helps industry in the USA today, it really doesn't.

I commented on this on the other made in China thread, but you can buy a Chinese 14x40 from Grizzly or PM for $7000-8000, or a Taiwanese 14x40 for around $11,000. Very few USA made manual lathes anymore, I found one a Standard Modern which sells for $25,000. Looking at a 1958 South Bend catalog, their 14.5x36 lathe sold for $2134 in 1958, adjusted for inflation that would be about $21,000.

For a business that might make sense to spend 2-3x as much, but how many hobby guys or part time shops have that kind of budget?

I very much doubt many hobbyists were buying the larger South Bend lathes "back in the day", most were probably buying the smaller 6-10" light duty lathes if they had the budget for new, or if they needed a larger lathe they shopped around for some 50-60 year old retired flat belt machine from the turn of the century.

Atlas / Craftsman lathes get a lot grief for their inexpensive construction, but in 1960 Sears sold the Atlas made 6" lathe for $175 ($1700 today), or the Atlas made 12x24" lathe for $348 ($3380) with change gears or $435 ($4200) with QCGB, the 12x36 version cost $389 ($3800) or $475 ($4600) with a QCGB. The cabinet with underdrive was an additional $125 ($1200).

The cheapest South Bend 9C was a 9x17" that cost $290 ($2880) in 1958, the long bed 9x34" cost $372 ($3700), the 9A with QCGB and power cross feed that everybody wants today cost $466-548 ($4640-5450). Yes the 9A bench lathe cost as much as the full boat 12x36" Craftsman.

People wonder why there are so many "crummy" Craftsman change gear lathes around, its because that is what most guys with a lathe in the garage could afford.


Buying good enough is not a new concept, it was around long before manufacturing was shipped overseas. Back then people had Craftsman, today we have China.


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## graham-xrf

Janderso said:


> Sometimes my thoughts wander.
> I’m reading through these posts, then my host mentions $20 per day. I think back to Henry Ford’s ridiculous $5 a day wage. He made a lot of corporate enemies on that move.
> When these company managers report back to their CEO’s and the CEO reports to his stock holders, a long term vision is lost.
> Quick profits to boost stock value seems to be the way of the world these days.


This may be why Elon Musk has sought to buy back shares in Tesla, and outright took all of Twitter out of the hands of the gamblers.


Janderso said:


> I don’t think hard work, a long term vision for your employer and a feeling of pride at the end of the day for what you accomplished will ever be popular again.
> I’m not suggesting bringing back the sweat shops of the early 20th century when some of our machines were made.
> There is a real difference between my 1960’s Delta band saw and the harbor freight copy.
> When you look at the castings on my 1970’s Made in England lathe and the B&S surface grinder then compare the fit and finish on a modern Jet drill press or Grizzly Jointer. There is a significant difference.
> Do they all do a good job? In my experience, yes.
> 
> So what’s my point? The world has changed and the old ways aren’t coming back. Maybe that’s a good thing? I’m not so sure.


Are you saying the Grizzly import castings are better? I would think the Delta, though showing the signs of it's working life, might still have more quality shine through than might be seen in a Harbor Freight copy.

I don't think either of us are saying we want a return to all the "old ways". We have smart stuff now that can enhance the capabilities of even an old design machine. I say that with an exception. Getting to feel pride in what one does, and having a work ethic that includes a morality apparently absent in 21st century management, is as good for now as it was USA was exporting it's best!


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## jwmay

Winegrower said:


> So you could say "buyers specify junk" and be more accurate.


Just wanted to double down on my appreciation for this statement. You're much more eloquent than me. But I think I share that sentiment. Nearly every time I read or watch people complaining about the thing they just bought, I can't help but wonder what they were hoping for at bottom dollar price.  Even my wife will find some furniture she wants, and is constantly disappointed when I tell her it's garbage. I'm astounded at the blatantly cheap wood, ugly weak fasteners, complete absence of attractive and durable joinery, and overall light duty nature of all of it! But there's a factory somewhere churning this garbage out, and it's selling like hotcakes. New machine tools are dramatically better than this pervasive bargain home decor crap people are buying. But I don't blame the person selling it. I blame the people buying it.


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## Janderso

graham-xrf said:


> This may be why Elon Musk has sought to buy back shares in Tesla, and outright took all of Twitter out of the hands of the gamblers.
> 
> Are you saying the Grizzly import castings are better? I would think the Delta, though showing the signs of it's working life, might still have more quality shine through than might be seen in a Harbor Freight copy.
> 
> I don't think either of us are saying we want a return to all the "old ways". We have smart stuff now that can enhance the capabilities of even an old design machine. I say that with an exception. Getting to feel pride in what one does, and having a work ethic that includes a morality apparently absent in 21st century management, is as good for now as it was USA was exporting it's best!


I didn’t make myself clear. The British and American castings/machines produced pre 1980’s are superb. In my opinion.
Does my son use and enjoy his HF bandsaw? Yes he does.
I must admit though, the Mehanite milling machine I have is dam good. It’s a Sharp, made in the 80’s in Taiwan.


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## Janderso

Aaron_W said:


> There seems to be this idea that buying a USA made machine sold 75 years ago, somehow helps industry in the USA today, it really doesn't.
> 
> I commented on this on the other made in China thread, but you can buy a Chinese 14x40 from Grizzly or PM for $7000-8000, or a Taiwanese 14x40 for around $11,000. Very few USA made manual lathes anymore, I found one a Standard Modern which sells for $25,000. Looking at a 1958 South Bend catalog, their 14.5x36 lathe sold for $2134 in 1958, adjusted for inflation that would be about $21,000.
> 
> For a business that might make sense to spend 2-3x as much, but how many hobby guys or part time shops have that kind of budget?
> 
> I very much doubt many hobbyists were buying the larger South Bend lathes "back in the day", most were probably buying the smaller 6-10" light duty lathes if they had the budget for new, or if they needed a larger lathe they shopped around for some 50-60 year old retired flat belt machine from the turn of the century.
> 
> Atlas / Craftsman lathes get a lot grief for their inexpensive construction, but in 1960 Sears sold the Atlas made 6" lathe for $175 ($1700 today), or the Atlas made 12x24" lathe for $348 ($3380) with change gears or $435 ($4200) with QCGB, the 12x36 version cost $389 ($3800) or $475 ($4600) with a QCGB. The cabinet with underdrive was an additional $125 ($1200).
> 
> The cheapest South Bend 9C was a 9x17" that cost $290 ($2880) in 1958, the long bed 9x34" cost $372 ($3700), the 9A with QCGB and power cross feed that everybody wants today cost $466-548 ($4640-5450). Yes the 9A bench lathe cost as much as the full boat 12x36" Craftsman.
> 
> People wonder why there are so many "crummy" Craftsman change gear lathes around, its because that is what most guys with a lathe in the garage could afford.
> 
> 
> Buying good enough is not a new concept, it was around long before manufacturing was shipped overseas. Back then people had Craftsman, today we have China.


I think you nailed it Aaron.


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## Janderso

davidpbest said:


> Agree.  I‘ve been on the phone for 40 minutes now, trying to buy one of their film and foil dispensers.  Someone forgot the first rule in marketing: make it easy to buy.


True, the human element in marketing is not what it use to be.


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## Eyerelief

Some very good points made here.  I have first hand experience working with Pac Rim manufacturers from '93 to present.  In the past 30 years I have seen how the manufacturers I deal with have become in their words "more Westernized".  These factories are located in Taiwan, Malaysia, China, Vietnam.  On that note, I believe that India will be another industrial powerhouse in the very near future.  Both China and India possess the necessary resource, people.

Back in the '90's, it was not uncommon to see the most caustic of chemicals poured into storm drains and rivers, and working conditions that most Americans wouldn't set foot in.  Not so much today.  Although not as regimented as the US, many manufacturing locations are vastly improved. Its not hard to find facilities over there with well documented processes, (ISO), and they adhere well to those processes (doesn't make them necessarily better, but it does make them consistent).  If I specify cut corners to save cost, I receive lower priced product with corners cut to save cost.  All of these modernization's along with taking better care of the workers, has driven cost up.  Having said that, I believe that India and China will always be amongst the lowest cost to manufacture, and in most industries, unfortunately, cost drives decision making.

Even though I have enjoyed seeing the vast improvements in these foreign countries over the years, of my half dozen indicators I own, my favorite is a Starrett.  My favorite 5C collet indexer is a Hardinge.  Vise, Kurt.  Favorite fly fishing reel, Ross.  Truck, GMC.  I could keep going.  They are proven good.

While I certainly don't have the resources to by American all the time, US made offerings are the benchmark that judges when I do buy something "important".  I'm finding in some instances that the price differential is shrinking which helps in the decision making.


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## ericc

jwmay said:


> Just wanted to double down on my appreciation for this statement. You're much more eloquent than me. But I think I share that sentiment. Nearly every time I read or watch people complaining about the thing they just bought, I can't help but wonder what they were hoping for at bottom dollar price.  Even my wife will find some furniture she wants, and is constantly disappointed when I tell her it's garbage. I'm astounded at the blatantly cheap wood, ugly weak fasteners, complete absence of attractive and durable joinery, and overall light duty nature of all of it! But there's a factory somewhere churning this garbage out, and it's selling like hotcakes. New machine tools are dramatically better than this pervasive bargain home decor crap people are buying. But I don't blame the person selling it. I blame the people buying it.


Yes, but I am tired of getting blamed.  I feel like I don't have much choice.  When the watch band on my Timex broke, I went to Target and bought a replacement band.  They were $13.  I made sure to sniff it to make sure it was real leather.  Two weeks later, it crumbled and broke.  On closer examination, the band was made of cardboard and impregnated with leather dust to fool the sniffers.  In my defense, that was the only line of replacement bands that was in stock at Target.  I was complaining about it in the company breakroom, and one of my coworkers, a woman from China, said that all good Chinese know how to buy the decent products.  The fake stuff is there to fool ... and here she sneered at me .. stupid Americans like you.  I told her, not any more.  She said that I have no choice now; all replacement watch bands are made in China.  I said, not this one, and I flashed the one I was wearing.  She turned up her nose and said, where did you pick up that ugly thing?  I said this is a special line of products not only made in the good ol' US, but even right here in Sunnyvale!

It's just like when they say "OK, Boomer." To a large degree, although it was under their watch, boomers don't deserve all the blame.  Many of the structural misfortunes that occurred during their generation was not due to their direct malfeasance.  So, don't go too heavy on this "ok, Boomer" stuff.


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## jwmay

My kid said that to me once. My parents are boomers. I started to tell her about gen X, but she very quickly realized she wasn't interested.  Just like everybody else. The struggle is real.


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## Aaron_W

ericc said:


> I said this is a special line of products not only made in the good ol' US, but even right here in Sunnyvale!



People ask what I make with all these tools. I usually reply with something like whatever I want.  It is nice to be at least somewhat self reliant.


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## Janderso

Eyerelief said:


> Some very good points made here.  I have first hand experience working with Pac Rim manufacturers from '93 to present.  In the past 30 years I have seen how the manufacturers I deal with have become in their words "more Westernized".  These factories are located in Taiwan, Malaysia, China, Vietnam.  On that note, I believe that India will be another industrial powerhouse in the very near future.  Both China and India possess the necessary resource, people.
> 
> Back in the '90's, it was not uncommon to see the most caustic of chemicals poured into storm drains and rivers, and working conditions that most Americans wouldn't set foot in.  Not so much today.  Although not as regimented as the US, many manufacturing locations are vastly improved. Its not hard to find facilities over there with well documented processes, (ISO), and they adhere well to those processes (doesn't make them necessarily better, but it does make them consistent).  If I specify cut corners to save cost, I receive lower priced product with corners cut to save cost.  All of these modernization's along with taking better care of the workers, has driven cost up.  Having said that, I believe that India and China will always be amongst the lowest cost to manufacture, and in most industries, unfortunately, cost drives decision making.
> 
> Even though I have enjoyed seeing the vast improvements in these foreign countries over the years, of my half dozen indicators I own, my favorite is a Starrett.  My favorite 5C collet indexer is a Hardinge.  Vise, Kurt.  Favorite fly fishing reel, Ross.  Truck, GMC.  I could keep going.  They are proven good.
> 
> While I certainly don't have the resources to by American all the time, US made offerings are the benchmark that judges when I do buy something "important".  I'm finding in some instances that the price differential is shrinking which helps in the decision making.


I am really glad to hear some of the blatant environmental polluting practices are improving.
We started down that road ourselves way back when.


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## Janderso

Aaron_W said:


> People ask what I make with all these tools. I usually reply with something like whatever I want.  It is nice to be at least somewhat self reliant.


I had a haircut this morning in Durango Colorado.
What a beautiful place!
(Durango Barbers, is the business. Highly recommended.)
He asked me, what do you make with your machines.
I gave him the old lame answer, ”I make some of my own tools, I like to repair old machinery including mine”
I should have said, whatever I want


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## mmcmdl

Janderso said:


> He asked me, what do you make with your machines.


I would've answered " Everything but money " !  

Durango IS beautiful Jeff , did you hop on the train ride to Silverton ?


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## Janderso

mmcmdl said:


> I would've answered " Everything but money " !
> 
> Durango IS beautiful Jeff , did you hop on the train ride to Silverton ?


We took a tour of Mesa Verde. Put the dig in daycare.
What a magical place.
We are in Monument Valley right now. Windy as hell.
No on the train. We saw it running. You just don’t see steam engines all that often anymore. Very neat!!


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## mmcmdl

Very cool buddie . Enjoy your trip and keep us up to date on your location ! And of course , it didn't happen without pics .


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## Janderso

mmcmdl said:


> Very cool buddie . Enjoy your trip and keep us up to date on your location ! And of course , it didn't happen without pics .


----------



## mmcmdl

Janderso said:


> We are in Monument Valley right now. Windy as hell.


How far east are you going to make it Jeff ? Wyoming or Colorado on your sights ?


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## Aaron_W

Janderso said:


> We took a tour of Mesa Verde. Put the dig in daycare.
> What a magical place.
> We are in Monument Valley right now. Windy as hell.
> No on the train. We saw it running. You just don’t see steam engines all that often anymore. Very neat!!



Looks like you are headed home if you are back in Arizona, but still lots left to see. Sounds like you are having a great trip.

I made a big road trip around 1993, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas on the outward leg, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Utah on the trip home. 

Work has provided me with many road trips over the years but I'm hoping to take another one on my own one of these days.


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## Janderso

mmcmdl said:


> How far east are you going to make it Jeff ? Wyoming or Colorado on your sights ?


We are heading back to the West, slowly.
Kodachrome tomorrow. We are staying at a Hip Camp, tonight.
Kanab, Utah.
Beautiful desolation


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## Janderso

Aaron_W said:


> Looks like you are headed home if you are back in Arizona, but still lots left to see. Sounds like you are having a great trip.
> 
> I made a big road trip around 1993, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas on the outward leg, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Utah on the trip home.
> 
> Work has provided me with many road trips over the years but I'm hoping to take another one on my own one of these days.


Aaron, your work related trips are not enjoyable. I see how hard you guys work.
I bet going home after a big one feels pretty darn good!


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## Aaron_W

Janderso said:


> Aaron, your work related trips are not enjoyable. I see how hard you guys work.
> I bet going home after a big one feels pretty darn good!



I've been to 20 of the 50 states, and work has taken me to 15 of them. 

I enjoy the work, but it is not a vacation (Hawaii being the exception, hard to call that trip anything but a paid vacation with interludes of work, a workation)? 

I refer to my work related travel as vacation recon. Hoping to start putting some of that recon to good work.


----------

