# Okay what 45 degree face mill is best for the Charter Oak 12z?



## coolidge (Oct 26, 2014)

After hours on the interweb I have face mill shopping fatigue. Lets start with size, in the 45 degree face mill category is a 3" too big for this mill? Options are 2", 2.5", or 3". I'm reading some people saying 3" is too big for a BP. Second does anyone have a brand recommendation? I looked at Grizzly, Lathe Inserts, Glacern, Maritool, seems like every damn one of them use a proprietary insert. Glacern has a nice one I'd buy in a minute but $20 an insert? Seriously? Ridiculous. Shopping around for inserts it looks like the only source is the tool vendor themselves short of ordering from China.


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## darkzero (Oct 26, 2014)

Most of the 45deg facemill in this size use the same size insert, SEXX43/12 including all the ones you listed (not sure about Grizzly, never looked it). Believe or not carbide inserts from the major manufacturers normally cost $10-$25ea. I have a Glacern FM45, I use the same AL specific Korloy inserts they sell except I got mine for $35 for a pack of 10 on ebay. Curtis at latheinserts.com is a great inexpensive source for inserts and all the products he carries are great quality.


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## coolidge (Oct 26, 2014)

Hmmm I thought they looked similar, I'll have to research the inserts in more detail as the part numbers are all different. That's good to know about Curtis he's the only one offering inserts at reasonable prices, his face mills quality looked a bit off compared to say Glacern. So what size Glacern do you have?


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## darkzero (Oct 26, 2014)

coolidge said:


> So what size Glacern do you have?



My Glacern is 2.5" with the integral shank. I also have a 2" FM on the way (not Glacern).


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## coolidge (Oct 26, 2014)

What brand is your 2"? I did some research this morning, Maritool and Glacern use the same insert, Lathe Inserts use a different insert and Grizzly use a Mitsubishi insert.


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## P.K. (Oct 26, 2014)

coolidge said:


> After hours on the interweb I have face mill shopping fatigue. Lets start with size, in the 45 degree face mill category is a 3" too big for this mill? Options are 2", 2.5", or 3". I'm reading some people saying 3" is too big for a BP. Second does anyone have a brand recommendation? I looked at Grizzly, Lathe Inserts, Glacern, Maritool, seems like every damn one of them use a proprietary insert. Glacern has a nice one I'd buy in a minute but $20 an insert? Seriously? Ridiculous. Shopping around for inserts it looks like the only source is the tool vendor themselves short of ordering from China.




I have the same mill only different brand (HBM-45) and I love my 2.5'' 45deg face mill.
It's most likely made in Taiwan and sits on a 22mm arbor (Mechanika) for my ISO30 spindle.

I use the following inserts:
SEHT43 AFFN X83 for aluminum (left)
SEHT43 AFSN X45 for steel (middle)
SEHW43 AFTN K2885 for decking cast aluminum motorcycle cylinders with cast iron liners (right).






.


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## darkzero (Oct 26, 2014)

coolidge said:


> What brand is your 2"? I did some research this  morning, Maritool and Glacern use the same insert, Lathe Inserts use a  different insert and Grizzly use a Mitsubishi insert.




I don't want to say much about the 2" until I get it & test it out, won't be here for another 2 weeks. It's not a 45° face mill anyway.

The LatheInserts' facemill uses the same insert as the others. They all may not list the exact insert p/n but like other indexables & holders it's the insert type & size that's import. For example a MCLN holder commonly uses a CNMG insert but also uses others CNGG, CNMA, CNMP, CNMM. That's assuming the FM & insert manufacturer follows ANSI/ISO specifications well. YMMV with generic inserts & cheap China/India FMs.

The only letters that are important are SE & T/W as well the size. S is square 90°, E is 20° relief angle. T & W is for the countersink hole. The insert size is 4 or 12 which is 1/2" or 12mm inscribed circle & 3 or 04 is the thickness. 43 is the ANSI size & 1204 is ISO, they are equivalent.


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## dave2176 (Oct 26, 2014)

My grizzly g0755 says max face mill size is 3.125. When I get to buying one it will be a Glacern 3".

Dave


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## darkzero (Oct 26, 2014)

dave2176 said:


> My grizzly g0755 says max face mill size is 3.125. When I get to buying one it will be a Glacern 3".
> 
> Dave



I'd believe what's "real world" recommended for BP/BP clones & what an R8 taper can handle over what Grizzly says. Not to say you can't use a 3" with lighter cuts. Of course YMMV & depends on the material you work with.


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## coolidge (Oct 26, 2014)

I did some digging, there appears to be a size difference...

Glacern/Maritool *SEHT/SEHW* = .500 inch square x .187 inch thick

Lathe Inserts/Grizzly/Mitsubishi *SEET/SEGT/SEMT* = .528 inch square x .156 inch thick


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## brav65 (Oct 26, 2014)

I have a question, is it better to purchase the face mill and separate holder that fits your machine or buy the face mill with an integrated collet that fits your machine?  It seems to me that you would be better off with a separate holder so that you have more flexibility in the future if you upgrade machines.  I hope this is not considered hijacking a thread.  If so please move where appropriate.

Thanks,

Brooks


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## coolidge (Oct 26, 2014)

darkzero said:


> I'd believe what's "real world" recommended for BP/BP clones & what an R8 taper can handle over what Grizzly says. Not to say you can't use a 3" with lighter cuts. Of course YMMV & depends on the material you work with.



I came across a post by a 30 year experienced machinist last night who said the issue is snapping off the R8 alignment pin in the spindle by using too large a face mill. He seemed to be speaking from experience and went so far as to recommend removing the pin, he said its not a key intended for that kind of torque and if you snap it off its apt to damage your spindle and you may have a hell of a time removing the tool let alone fixing the spindle.


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## coolidge (Oct 26, 2014)

brav65 said:


> I have a question, is it better to purchase the face mill and separate holder that fits your machine or buy the face mill with an integrated collet that fits your machine?  It seems to me that you would be better off with a separate holder so that you have more flexibility in the future if you upgrade machines.  I hope this is not considered hijacking a thread.  If so please move where appropriate.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Brooks



I'm kicking that decision around now. Glacern has both, they claim their face mill with integrated R8 shank improves rigidity, on the other hand I could buy 2-3 sizes of face mills and only 1 R8 shank face mill holder saving a few bucks. Really? Nah I'd probably end up buying an R8 shank for each of them. One concern I do have is, is their face mill with the integrated R8 shank have the same run out and tolerance, that seems like a lot of machining for one hunk of steel.


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## darkzero (Oct 26, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I did some digging, there appears to be a size difference...
> 
> Glacern/Maritool *SEHT/SEHW* = .500 inch square x .187 inch thick
> 
> Lathe Inserts/Grizzly/Mitsubishi *SEET/SEGT/SEMT* = .528 inch square x .156 inch thick



Insert size (IC & thickness) is denoted by the numbers listed after the insert designation & not the letter designation itself. Aluminum specific inserts will also vary in thickness from steel specific inserts. I'm no expert & don't want to be responsible if you do happen to have an issue but if you find that to be true I would stick with SEHT & SEHW, they seem to be more popular.

Do you have a link to the specs you found for the SEET/SEGT/SEMT?


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## coolidge (Oct 26, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Insert size (IC & thickness) is denoted by the numbers listed after the insert designation & not the letter designation itself. Aluminum specific inserts will also vary in thickness from steel specific inserts. I'm no expert & don't want to be responsible if you do happen to have an issue but if you find that to be true I would stick with SEHT & SEHW, they seem to be more popular.
> 
> Do you have a link to the specs you found for the SEET/SEGT/SEMT?



I looked them up on MSC (searched MSC for SEET, SEHT, etc.) MSC give the dimensions for the inserts. I found the dimensions on a couple of other web sites also and they match what MSC is saying. This site is was also helpful, I selected a 45 deg face mill and down below they have a button that gives you all the inserts that fit. This was helpful in figuring out the inserts for Lathe Inserts, Grizzly, and Mitsubishi were the same. http://www.mitsubishicarbide.net/mmus/enus/face_mills/


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## darkzero (Oct 26, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I looked them up on MSC (searched MSC for SEET, SEHT, etc.) MSC give the dimensions for the inserts. I found the dimensions on a couple of other web sites also and they match what MSC is saying. This site is was also helpful, I selected a 45 deg face mill and down below they have a button that gives you all the inserts that fit. This was helpful in figuring out the inserts for Lathe Inserts, Grizzly, and Mitsubishi were the same. http://www.mitsubishicarbide.net/mmus/enus/face_mills/



Now I see the SEETs like on Latheinserts.com as being 12T3 which is thinner than 1204. I also do see .528 on MSC but that is listed as length & not inscribed circle. That may be the length from cutting tip to tip which is not the same as IC.

Whatever you go with should be fine. Please let us know how it works out. Personally when I look for an indexable cutter to buy I base my decision on how much inserts can be purchased for & their availability from various vendors. I also got a heck of a deal on my Glacern FM45 as I bought it from someone locally who converted his PM45 to CNC & an ISO30 spindle.


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## P.K. (Oct 26, 2014)

It's all here: https://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm

P.K.


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## coolidge (Oct 27, 2014)

I may have found a US supplier for Korloy SEHT inserts, $7.37 for SEHT43AFFN-X83, the place is called *DELETED* and seems to be located in Illinois, parent company CarbideMax. I'll give them a call tomorrow.

*Update:* Yeah I think not, there is virtually no info on this company anywhere on the internet and when I called some Asian guy just answered "hello". My 'shady outfit' radar went WHOO-WHOO.


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## coolidge (Oct 27, 2014)

*FINAL!* After hours if shopping inserts and insert grades (good lord) across multiple vendors I'm calling it, the winner in the face mill war is www.latheinserts.com. The face mill, R8 arbor, and two packs of inserts (steel, aluminum) was going to be north of $600 everywhere else I looked vs latheinserts at $332. I have a lot more tooling to buy for the mill and saving a few hundred here makes sense, walk, run, fly. I figure worse case if this face mill isn't up to standard I could devote it to roughing and purchase a better quality face mill later on for finishing.

On a side note is any other 12z owner second guessing not going with the NT30 spindle? The only R8 tooling I have at this point is the Albrecht chuck and EMT collet set, I probably won't change since there's far more available for R8 but curious if anyone else is thinking about this.

*Update FAIL!* LOL I just couldn't push the Check Out button on the latheinserts face mill. I really wanted the Glacern and purchased it minutes ago. I did find some cheaper inserts on ebay thankfully.


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## wrmiller (Oct 27, 2014)

I 'was' thinking about NT30, but after talking to my friend with the machine shop I decided to stay with R8 as I have a considerable amount of tooling for it, it's cheap, and unless the machine is rigid enough to take advantage of the NT30 it has no other advantage over the R8 (his words). As I am unqualified to speculate about the rigidity of the 12Z being enough to take advantage of the NT30, I thought I'd fade into the background and let someone else be the guinea pig on this one.

Of course if you do find that NT30 works really great, I will reconsider.  :whistle:


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## coolidge (Oct 27, 2014)

I did a quick search on Enco and MSC for NT30 tooling and its very limited. I contemplated some kind of NT30 tool changer for about 45 seconds then dismissed it as crazy talk. If I get that serious I'll go Haas and CAT40.


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## Falcon67 (Oct 27, 2014)

Fwiw - there are more than a couple of people out there swinging a 8" face mill on R8 BPs and clones for surfacing cylinder heads.  Not taking heavy cuts for sure but then .006 to .008 is about average to reduce a quench chamber by 1 cc so heavy cuts are not really required.


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## coolidge (Oct 27, 2014)

darkzero said:


> I don't want to say much about the 2" until I get it & test it out, won't be here for another 2 weeks. It's not a 45° face mill anyway.



I'm guessing...


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## darkzero (Oct 27, 2014)

coolidge said:


> the winner in the face mill war is www.latheinserts.com.



Great choice. Nothing Curtis sells is junk so you should be happy with your purchase.




coolidge said:


> I'm guessing...
> 
> View attachment 86589



Nope but I have been wanting one of the Korloy Pro-X cutters but in the 1" size. These are what latheinserts.com calls their Ripper endmills. I never purchased one cause I figure as a home shop hobbyist it really may not benefit me.

Ok, ok. The 2" cutter I ordered is a Dorian Recycle cutter. It uses the "useless" 100° corners of CCMT inserts. I have a bunch of used CCGT inserts that I have not thrown away & figured I try one of these rather than using one of those turning holders that use the 100°. I use CCGT inserts quite often & figured I might as well get something to make use of them after the 80° sides are used up.

I'm not expecting much as CCMTs were not designed for milling. If it's good for at least just roughing I'll be happy. If it gives me a decent finish for squaring up work I'll be even happier.


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## coolidge (Oct 27, 2014)

I have some CCGT inserts for my lathe, Korloy but man they are tiny inserts. I can't seem to press the Check Out button on the latheinsert package...


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## chuckorlando (Oct 28, 2014)

I feel your pain. I can sit on a fence for months sometimes ahahaha

I ordered a fly cutter instead of a face mill. I should have got the face mill. It's a hobby but I enjoy convenience and inserts are worth every penny in that area IMO.





coolidge said:


> I have some CCGT inserts for my lathe, Korloy but man they are tiny inserts. I can't seem to press the Check Out button on the latheinsert package...


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## catoctin (Oct 28, 2014)

It's funny you brought this story up.  Almost all PM935's I have heard of are shipped with the alignment pin set too deep.  I adjusted and tested mine using all of my collets and drill chuck (Glacern).  I then tried my Glacern face mill and it would not go in.  The other tools seemed to go in fairly easily so I set the face mill aside.  A few days later I pulled the face mill out and looked at the top of the index slot.  It appears it may have been bumped or dropped in the factory and point of impacted at the top of the index slot.  You really needed to look close to see it.  A few swipes on one edge with a jewelers file  and it inserted properly.  I really did not want to pulled the index pin out further for fear of shearing the nose off of it.

-Joe   



coolidge said:


> I came across a post by a 30 year experienced machinist last night who said the issue is snapping off the R8 alignment pin in the spindle by using too large a face mill. He seemed to be speaking from experience and went so far as to recommend removing the pin, he said its not a key intended for that kind of torque and if you snap it off its apt to damage your spindle and you may have a hell of a time removing the tool let alone fixing the spindle.


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## wrmiller (Oct 28, 2014)

Falcon67 said:


> Fwiw - there are more than a couple of people out there swinging a 8" face mill on R8 BPs and clones for surfacing cylinder heads.  Not taking heavy cuts for sure but then .006 to .008 is about average to reduce a quench chamber by 1 cc so heavy cuts are not really required.



Yea, I was thinking about this. As I would be using a face mill primarily for truing/squaring material, these would be fairly light (< 10 thou) cuts and I don't see why a 3" wouldn't work just fine for that. If in the case of where all I have is .5" material and need it to be .3" I'll use roughers to get the material close, then true/finish cut with the face mill.

If I wanted a face mill primarily to remove stock, I'd probably stick with a 2". Different strokes, different folks.


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## coolidge (Oct 28, 2014)

wrmiller19 said:


> Yea, I was thinking about this. As I would be using a face mill primarily for truing/squaring material, these would be fairly light (< 10 thou) cuts and I don't see why a 3" wouldn't work just fine for that. If in the case of where all I have is .5" material and need it to be .3" I'll use roughers to get the material close, then true/finish cut with the face mill.
> 
> If I wanted a face mill primarily to remove stock, I'd probably stick with a 2". Different strokes, different folks.



Then there is spindle speed vs weight as I anticipate higher speeds milling aluminum. Glacern's 3" face mill weighs 2.75 pounds, just saying. I figure I can always go bigger but if I find the FM too large then I'm stuck with the tool.


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## Falcon67 (Oct 28, 2014)

Thanks for the link to latheinserts.com - now you have me browsing tools.  Good prices, was looking for a 3/4 boring bar for the new lathe.


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