# Is an old domestic lathe worth the same as a new import lathe?



## tyronejk

Around where I live outside of Atlanta, I frequently find old lathes on Craigslist listed for about the same as new import lathe (using PrecisionMatthews lathes as a reference, since they're supposedly one of the good import lathes).  The lathes I'm looking at are around 10"-12" by 20"-28".

I see a lot of guys find old South Bends and the like for $600-800 up north, so I'm not sure if $2500 for an old South Bend (and most don't seem to come with much tooling) is worth it.  I have a couple of years of experience machining as a hobby, so it's not enough to be able to restore a really beat-up machine and I'd like to get started making parts rather than turning the lathe itself into a project.

So for roughly the same cost, would you recommend sticking with old iron or new chinesium?  I'd be using the machine for hobby projects.  90% of it will probably be aluminum <2" diameter and tolerances of +/- 1 thou is probably sufficient.


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## Dave Paine

I think many of us have wrestled with this question or a similar question of old domestic iron vs used import iron.   I wrestled with the latter.

I was looking to get my first metal lathe around 2014.   I had been looking at various lathes on Craigslist.   I had seen a Grizzly G9249 about 2 hrs drive but did not go and look at this.  I am also a hobbyist.   I was expecting to be working with mostly aluminium, some steel, and perhaps some operations with wood which were giving me issues on my wood lathe such as drilling deep holes.

I purchased a well used Southbend Heavy 10 in May 2014, about 1 1/2hr drive.   I spent the time to clean it up from the decades of grease and compressed air having forced chips and dirt into every crevice.   I spent a good month cleaning this up.   It only had a 6in scroll chuck and lantern style tool post.  Very little tooling.

I replaced the felts in the saddle when I had this apart.   I replaced the bearings in the QCGB when I had this apart.    I cut off the old flat belt and replaced with flat nylon/rubber belt.  I added a Phase II QCTP.

I replaced the single phase motor with 3 phase motor and VFD.  By October 2014 I was beginning to appreciate features which I desired in a lathe, such as DRO and a flat top compound which was easy to mount a magnetic base.   I also found the short bed to be too short from some of the wood drilling I wanted to perform.

I started looking around again.   I found another used Grizzly G9249 about 15 mins drive which had DRO already installed, an Adjust-Tru style chuck, a Phase II QCTP and the original 6in scroll chuck, 8in 4 jaw chuck and 10in face plate.   I went to look at this and decided to purchase.  The seller was likely the second owner.   I think the first owner was a company.    Well taken care by the seller, but some wear over time.   I decided to get this lathe and use it often.   I still have the Southbend but may sell this.

Once I got the Grizzly G9249 which has a dial on the carriage as do many lathe today, then went back to the Southbend, I really missed having a carriage dial.   I know I can use a dial indicator and stops, but I love being able to read off from a carriage dial.

The seller replaced the Grizzly G9249 with a Grizzly G4003G.   He wanted this lathe for potential gunsmith work.  He added DRO and replaced the single phase motor with 3 phase and VFD.   He is very happy with the lathe, gets good tolerances.   He does miss the Adjust-Tru style chuck from the old Grizzly.

If I had to choose between old iron and NEW good quality Asian import for similar price, I personally would go with a new good quality Asian import.   This is likely a very personal decision.


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## ttabbal

You're in the same boat I am apparently. When I started looking into machines, I kept hearing "get an old US machine for $500 with tooling". Yeah, maybe in some areas. Not here. A decent condition machine here goes for $3000ish without tooling. You usually get a chuck, maybe one home ground HSS bit. It's just supply and demand, but it sucks.  

There are a couple reasons I have a PM-1127 on the way. 

As I haven't run a lathe in years, and never set one up, I don't have the experience to properly evaluate a used machine. It could be crap that barely runs, or it could be great. I would be guessing. At the moment, I'm interested in using a lathe, not fixing one. Assuming it can be fixed. Wear on the ways could be near impossible to fix without other machine tools I don't have. I can see how fixing up old machines can be fun, but I would need a working machine to fix many things. 

I get support and warranty from a US based company. In this case, PM. They are well regarded around here for taking care of their customers. So if I get it and have a broken part or whatever, they will help me out. A used machine is as-is 99% of the time. If it's broken, you get the keep both pieces. 

A new machine comes with a good set of accessories. Steady/follow rests, usually 3 and 4 jaw chucks, change gears, etc.. Those parts add up fast. If I'm not getting the machine cheap, I'm out even more money trying to hunt down those parts, if I want them. It doesn't help that a lot of people list them as "vintage" to try to get more money for old used tools. For the same money, I'd rather have them up front, knowing they are in good condition and will fit my machine. In my case, it also comes with a QCTP, most used machines I've seen locally have a lantern style toolpost. Particularly old US iron. Adding one often involves some machining on the compound. I get one pre-installed and ready to go. 

I find the disdain for "chinesium" amusing. Just about everything is made there these days. You can't get away from it. Not everything is Harbor Freight quality from there. They build to the price/specs of the customer ordering things. To be sure, you can get a ton of cheap crap there. But you can get good quality too, you just have to pay for it, like anywhere else. A good importer will walk the line trying to get the best quality for the money. A cheap one (HF) will cut every corner and leave a rounded off bolt. From what I can tell PM is a good importer. I'll know more in a few days. I also considered Grizzly. I went with PM in large part due to the reputation they have here and that when I compared all the features and included accessories, PM was a better value. 

As mentioned above, it's a personal decision. It depends on what you are after and what you want out of the machine. The best any of us can do is tell you why we chose the way we did. Now, if I could get a new US made quality machine for a similar price range, I'd be all over that. But it doesn't exist. We don't make things in the US anymore. And those that do have largely gone the corner cutting route. Even what used to be good brands. For example, I blew the gearbox in a Makita drill last night. My wife couldn't believe it, her father had one that lasted 20 years that worked harder. Crap plastic gears. I was drilling a hole in wood, going from 3/4" to 1". Nothing particularly tough. My older Rigid with crap old batteries plowed through it, and another one without a pilot. I need new batteries, sadly, their "lifetime" warranty works, but they take a couple months with the drill and the batteries to get replacements. sigh. I'd happily pay a little to have replacements sent directly to me overnight and ship the old ones back, but they won't do that. I can't even buy new batteries, they don't make them anymore. 

Sorry about the wall of text, it got away from me. I'll stop venting now.


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## 4ssss

Why not just buy the lathe from "up north"?  I drive to and from Dothan, Al. when going to visit relatives in a day, and use less than 180 gallons of fuel for both ways. Atlanta's 5 hours closer. Now I understand everyone doesn't get into trip mode and drive the way I do, but you can rent one of those heavy duty U-Haul trailers for something like $20 a day that will fit an old SB. I know it will take the load because I've moved Bridgeport mills with them. For a rough estimate, just add $450, (certainly under $650 if you stop for a night or 2) to the price of the "up north" lathe and figure out if it's worth it. Now before I start hearing about fuel prices and how it can't be done, the Southern states he would drive are probably a dollar cheaper a gallon than any other. Fill up before crossing the Mason-Dixon in VA, and you'll have enough to make it up to CT (if that's "up north" enough for you) with enough fuel to spare to get you back to re-fuel in NJ on the NY-NJ-PA border where it's also cheaper. This might sound like a rant, but a little planning and you'd get a nice used machine for a decent price.  Too many guys whine about shipping costs when all you have to do is go get it yourself if you really want it and if the price is right.  And before you ask, no, I won't do it for you for expenses.  Fishing season is fast approaching and the machinery is being put to bed until next fall.  Sorry.


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## wrmiller

"Is an old domestic lathe worth the same as a new import lathe?"

Depends on the viewpoint of the person answering the question. For some, the answer is 'yes', for others the answer is 'no'. This is probably one of those questions that you are the best person to answer. Because you will have to live/deal with the answer, long after everyone here has forgotten the question and moved on.


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## Nogoingback

The New Chinese vs. Old American Iron question is a never ending topic around here with valid points on both sides.
There is pretty much no question that the older American lathes were built to a standard that the Asian imports can't
match.  But the older stuff is just that: most of them are getting pretty old and as such it's getting harder to find machines
in good condition with tooling.  As those machines become more rare, their prices go up.  It also very much depends on
what the local market is like.

It's also true that as a result, the machines themselves become projects.  Some people like that and some don't.  I've noticed that a lot of the folks in the O.A.I. camp just say "be patient and a good machine will turn up".  It's true, but I've
noticed most of those folks already own lathes.  For a newb, it's tough to spend what can be a long time finding the right machine when what they want to do is just get started on their new hobby.  And, that assumes they have the skills and desire to work on an old machine which you possibly can no longer buy replacement parts for.

I went the old iron route and spent months and lots of $$$ bringing back an old machine to life.  I learned a lot and
gained some satisfaction from having done so.  But for what I spent I could have called Matt and gotten a new machine
with a full set of tools and no bed wear, not to mention a warranty.

It sounds like you answered your own question by saying that you want to just make parts rather than having the machine
become a project.  And while Chinese machines in general have poor reputation, it seems that PM machines are the best of the bunch and their owners seem to like them.


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## mikey

Really like the thoughtful responses in this post. What really amazes me is the quality and features found on the larger (11"+) Asian lathes, especially for the price. Trying to find an old lathe at any price with a D1 camlock spindle, +/- 0.0001" spindle runout, hardened and ground everything, no bed wear and all basic tooling is going to be nearly impossible. 



tyronejk said:


> So for roughly the same cost, would you recommend sticking with old iron or new chinesium?



To answer this, I would suggest you buy a new Taiwanesium lathe from PM. Dollar for dollar and bang for the buck, they are a good choice.


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## toploader

For me this discussion revolves around what size lathe you want/need.  If I was in the market for a south bend/craftsman/atlas I would most definitely go with a newer import  

If you're looking for 14" swing or more old iron is gonna be the better bargain.  In my opinion.


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## SSage

I looked at a few South Bends and Logans in the SE and the prices were too high for well worn machines. I wanted a bigger lathe, so having it shipped to my house was a major plus. 

I'm tired of fighting old iron, my fairly small 1200 pound or so PM1236 is less hassle, easy to read dials, warranty, yep... Buy new. I spent less on the 1236 with tooling and accessories than some of the SBA 9's went for around here with modest tooling.

My first Asian lathe, it's nice and new, 3 year warranty. It's more precise than the old iron I've been around. It's a Chinese made machine, so the paint is typically china style finished, but I'm making good parts on it.


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## Ray C

When making a decision, consider if you want to make metric threads.  I was recently considering an industrial piece from the late 70's that was in very good condition.  -About a 4000lb machine and very good price.  Chucks were in great shape, had a collet closer.  It was coming from a tool & die shop and was operated and maintained by professionals.     Saw it, ran it... Clean machine -but it did not cut metric threads.  -Deal breaker!

Ray C.


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## cg285

there are other non asian lathes avail new (or used) but maybe not in the smaller sizes you are looking for. i suspect 1336 would be around the smallest. clausing metosa is one example (made in spain)


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## toploader

Ray C said:


> When making a decision, consider if you want to make metric threads.  I was recently considering an industrial piece from the late 70's that was in very good condition.  -About a 4000lb machine and very good price.  Chucks were in great shape, had a collet closer.  It was coming from a tool & die shop and was operated and maintained by professionals.     Saw it, ran it... Clean machine -but it did not cut metric threads.  -Deal breaker!
> 
> Ray C.



You can cut metric threads on an inch lead screw.


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## magicniner

Quality is everything, something made to the best standards available 50 years ago yet badly maintained and abused will be worthless.


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## magicniner

Ray C said:


> When making a decision, consider if you want to make metric threads.  I was recently considering an industrial piece from the late 70's that was in very good condition.  -About a 4000lb machine and very good price.  Chucks were in great shape, had a collet closer.  It was coming from a tool & die shop and was operated and maintained by professionals.     Saw it, ran it... Clean machine -but it did not cut metric threads.  -Deal breaker!
> 
> Ray C.



Yup, 
you need to be able to add non-standard gears into the gear train to cut metric threads on a lathe with an imperial gearbox, the lead screw has nothing to do with it, just the ability to add the required gears to the gear train to achieve metric pitches, although this may prove an unsuitable solution in a production environment, even if possible ;-)


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## 7milesup

I just bought a new PM833T vertical mill.  It is Taiwan made, and the difference between the Chinese lathe and the Taiwan mill is very noticeable.  Not saying that the Chinese lathe is bad at all (it too is from Matt) but there is a difference.  I went through the same thing you are going through when I bought my lathe.  Waited, and waited, and waited for a "good old piece of iron", but it did not come in the 2-ish years I was looking.  I also did not know enough then what to even look for in used iron, so to me I went with new.  Got tired of waiting and not knowing if anything would ever show up.  There was an Atlas that came up a few months ago about 6 miles from my home.  Went to look at it for the heck of it and after hearing how much he wanted for it and how old it was, I felt good with the decision I made to get a Chinese lathe from Matt.  My next one is going to be a Taiwanese one from him though, like a 1340GT or such.


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## Ray C

toploader said:


> You can cut metric threads on an inch lead screw.



Yes, all of the modern machines with inch leadscrews have a means to cut metric threads.  Very few machines that I'm aware of and are also commonly available on the used market, built/designed prior to the 1970's can natively cut metric threads.  In some cases, a modification can be done with a couple extra shafts and custom gears.   In the case of the Sheldons and LeBlonds I was looking at, it's not really feasible without a full re-design of the gearbox.   Some of the newer units (1980's vintage) supported metric natively but those machines are selling for about $3000 more.

Ray


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## Dave Paine

toploader said:


> You can cut metric threads on an inch lead screw.



My lathe has imperial lead screw and can cut many metric threads, but it cannot cut any metric thread.   This is expected, due to the limitations of the change gears.   I was looking to see if I could cut a 3.5mm pitch thread for a member of my wood turning club and found the chart for my metal lathe did not include this metric pitch.

I have cut other more common metric threads.


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## Nogoingback

mikey said:


> Really like the thoughtful responses in this post. What really amazes me is the quality and features found on the larger (11"+) Asian lathes, especially for the price. Trying to find an old lathe at any price with a D1 camlock spindle, +/- 0.0001" spindle runout, hardened and ground everything, no bed wear and all basic tooling is going to be nearly impossible.



The other real benefit to PM machines is the large spindle bore available:   1" on the 10" machine and 1 1/2" on the 11" and 12".  Old 
machines in the same size range are usually less.


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## 4GSR

Nogoingback said:


> The other real benefit to PM machines is the large spindle bore available:   1" on the 10" machine and 1 1/2" on the 11" and 12".  Old
> machines in the same size range are usually less.


Ideally, I would love to have a 4-3/4" spindle bore on a 14" lathe in my shop!   Not going to get it unless I build it.

EDIT: I might settle for a 3-5/8" hole in the spindle.


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## CluelessNewB

If you are willing to wait, look for bargains and put in some sweat equity the older machines can be a good value.   I do see many older machines listed for crazy prices but once in a while some bargains do come along.  I paid $250 for my Logan 820 with quick change gear box, steady and follower rest, 3 & 4 jaw chucks and a few other odds and ends.   I spent about another $300 and probably 60 hours labor cleaning it up, fixing and painting.  It's not perfect but it gets the job done for what I want to do.  I very much enjoy fixing and using older machines.  Most of the work I have done on my Logan has been making or repairing parts for other older machines!  If that's not your thing then by all means buy something new.  I don't think this is a one answer fits all question.


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## tyronejk

Wow, a lot of great responses and personal experiences in just a day.  Thanks all for your input.  Based on everyone's responses, I think a new import machine will work for me.


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## mikey

4gsr said:


> Ideally, I would love to have a 4-3/4" spindle bore on a 14" lathe in my shop!   Not going to get it unless I build it.



Yeah, but once you got that lathe with the 4-3/4" spindle bore, you would have a 5" work piece!


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## Aaron_W

I think a project lathe is kind of like a project car. It is a lot more fun when you have another car to drive to work everyday.


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## BGHansen

Not adding anything here, but naturally depends on where you want to spend your time.  Pick up new overseas iron and it "should" be functional right away so you'll be making chips within hours.  You'll likely have "modern conveniences" of a flat/square compound for gauge blocks and indicators.  Likely have the ability to thread both English and metric right out of the chute.  You'll have a warranty.  Has that "new lathe" smell.

Buy old American iron and you're likely getting a more robustly designed lathe as it was intended for heavy use.  It will treat you properly if you treat it properly.  Unknown factor is you don't know how it was treated by the previous owner(s).  Might be OK, but you might be spending months on a rebuild.  Once restored, it'd last your lifetime and probably your kids and grandkids.

I have a Grizzly G0709 14"x 40" lathe purchased new over 2 years ago.  Really like the machine.  Also have a 1963'ish Clausing 5418 12" x 24" lathe that came out of a high school shop.  The Clausing is rock solid and just feels smoother than my Grizzly.  But the Grizzly gets 95% of my lathe work.  Main reason I bought the Grizzly is for the geared head speed changes and the universal quick change gear box (no quadrant gear changes to go between metric and English threading).  My Clausing requires deep knee bends to change the speeds; open the base cabinet, throw a tensioning lever that's on the floor and slip the drive belt on a pair of cone pulleys.  The Grizzly also has a brake as I'd gotten into a bad habit on the Clausing of dragging my hand on the collet chuck to stop the spindle.  Top speed on my Clausing is something like 1600 RPM, without power feeds engaged it'll spin for about 45 seconds before coming to a stop (it's that smooth and well balanced).

Other question to ask when buying old iron is why is the guy/gal selling it?  Are they getting rid of a problem child or just down sizing?  You may consider asking some "go to" questions when looking at old iron.  I looked at a well used Bridgeport years ago and frankly didn't know what questions to ask or what to look for.  A machinist at work suggested I look at the rest of the shop for cleanliness and organization.  Also ask how difficult it was to get to all of the lubrication points.  Well, the shop was a pig sty and he had to start looking over the BP and his lathe for the lube points.  Told me what I needed to know about his attentiveness to the preventive maintenance schedules - no sale that day!

Good luck on the hunt, always a tough call.

Bruce


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## Dredb

I've owned a Taiwan made 1340 lathe for 20 odd years. It gets cleaned oiled and adjusted. In the time I've owned it, I've replaced the counter shaft bearings (£3)
It replaced an old British made tool room lathe that was built like a battleship but was too small (5 X 20"), too big (1 ton +), too worn and too expensive to repair (It cost about the same to buy the 1340 that the parts would have cost).
I think I must be happy with it, I haven't looked for a replacement for a long time.
I would really like a new, top of the range long bed Myford Super7 on the industrial stand and with the complete range of factory accessories. 
Unlikely to happen because they're not made anymore, it would cost 3 or 4 1340s, it would be too small anyway. Nice though!


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## cdhknives

My 2 cents.  I was given a 'free' Atlas lathe.  It was my grandfathers.  Worse than a 'free pony'.  As much as I like 'communing with him' when I work on it, I would have been far better off financially and work wise putting the restoration and tooling money into a new 12x36...and I am not 'restoring' it, just getting it back into condition where it can make good parts.


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## CluelessNewB

New stuff isn't always good.   My first purchased new Taiwan 17" made drill press back about 1987 was a total piece of junk.  The runout was so bad it wasn't even good for woodworking, the switch failed within a few months and the motor not long after.   It was replaced with a 15" 1940's vintage Walker Turner  that I still have.  Likewise my purchased new around 1989 Craftsman made in USA radial arm saw was total trash and would go out of alignment with a slight bump on the arm, this was replaced with a late 1960s vintage DeWalt which is still going strong.  My first bench grinder was an 8 inch from Horror Fright, that was a weak sorry tool, gave that away to a neighbor that didn't anything so it was better than nothing.  He has since passed it on.

Thanks for reminding me why I like older tools.


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## Cheeseking

Colchester still makes good quality small lathe (albeit likely with chicom casting and that ugly 600 group paint color)
I will go to my grave with this little 11"x30 and count my lucky stars the day I found and "overpaid" for it.
I added the dro and chip guards.


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## Bob Korves

Dredb said:


> I've owned a Taiwan made 1340 lathe for 20 odd years. It gets cleaned oiled and adjusted. In the time I've owned it, I've replaced the counter shaft bearings (£3)
> It replaced an old British made tool room lathe that was built like a battleship but was too small (5 X 20"), too big (1 ton +), too worn and too expensive to repair (It cost about the same to buy the 1340 that the parts would have cost).
> I think I must be happy with it, I haven't looked for a replacement for a long time.
> I would really like a new, top of the range long bed Myford Super7 on the industrial stand and with the complete range of factory accessories.
> Unlikely to happen because they're not made anymore, it would cost 3 or 4 1340s, it would be too small anyway. Nice though!


Check out this guy who is restoring 7 Myford 7's (his second batch):




He is doing very nice work, there are more videos from him newer than this one on the subject.


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## wrmiller

tyronejk said:


> Wow, a lot of great responses and personal experiences in just a day.  Thanks all for your input.  Based on everyone's responses, I think a new import machine will work for me.



If you can afford it, go Taiwan made. Unlike the one person's experience here, things have changed a bit in the last ~40 years or so.

I bought a 1340GT lathe from PM (Precision Matthews), and have had zero issues with it. Good materials and quality of manufacture, and more accurate than I am. Tried to hit a .580" diameter yesterday and missed. It ended up being .58025" It wasn't the machine, it's the driver. 

Bought a 935S 'baby bridgeport' from the same vendor. Taiwan made. Quality of the castings, fit, and finish on this thing is very good. Table and knee movement is butter smooth. And again, more accurate than I am. 

Didn't have to repair or rebuild anything. After setup and alignment, they both just start making parts. With proper care, these will outlast me by a long shot. Maybe my step-son will be interested in them by then. Right now he's too busy raising a family.


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## Dan_S

tyronejk said:


> I see a lot of guys find old South Bends and the like for $600-800 up north, so I'm not sure if $2500 for an old South Bend (and most don't seem to come with much tooling) is worth it.



A lot of the price difference depends on the condition of the lathe. Here in the mid-west, you can get them from $750 and up. However anything under about $2k in my area would probably make a better boat anchor than lathe. 

Personally, I don't rate most of the small old domestic lathes any higher than I do the modern imports even if its in good shape. When you get to 13" the South Bends start becoming appealing.


When I'm looking for old lathes these are what I'm looking for.

Hardinge HLV
http://www.lathes.co.uk/hardinge/

Monarch 10EE
http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/page2.html

Colchester Mascot 1600 (40" or 60")
http://www.lathes.co.uk/colchester/page27.html

American Pacemaker (14" with the 18-speed high speed headstock)
http://www.lathes.co.uk/pacemaker/index.html


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## ThunderDog

> I would really like a new, top of the range long bed Myford Super7 on the industrial stand and with the complete range of factory accessories.
> Unlikely to happen because they're not made anymore, it would cost 3 or 4 1340s, it would be too small anyway. Nice though!


Dredb, I owned a Myford "M" series long bed with a ton of accessories.  Granted it was my first machine and the ways were fairly worn out, but it was very nice machine that I learned to adjust to its' wear.  I could still cut within .001"

To the OP, I'm not adding that much but I guess it really comes down to what you want out of the whole "experience".  For me, I actually enjoy taking a machine that is seen as a trash heap and bringing back to life.  Yes, it's extra work.  On the other hand, I know the feeling of wanting to pay and play.  I brought an Atlas milling machine back to life and a Jefferson milling machine back to life.  If I were to do it over again, I would have just gone with a PM bench milling machine.  Why?  I really haven't been impressed with either of these small milling machines and I have done more tinkering on both and have just reached my limit with both.  Size constraints are another thing to consider.  I can't go with a Bridgeport so options are limited.

Best of luck.


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## fradish

The only other thing I would add is that some older machines have features that can seem fairly limiting today.
I have a South Bend 9C which has a 3/4" through bore in the spindle which was something I always seemed
to bump up against.  Also, the spindle is threaded which can be a problem when running in reverse.  As others
have mentioned, newer lathes generally are less rounded and have more flat areas which make placing magnetic
indicator holders easier.  I now have a PM-1228 which I tend to use the most, but I still occasionally use the SB.


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## toploader

wrmiller said:


> If you can afford it, go Taiwan made. Unlike the one person's experience here, things have changed a bit in the last ~40 years or so.
> 
> I bought a 1340GT lathe from PM (Precision Matthews), and have had zero issues with it. Good materials and quality of manufacture, and more accurate than I am. Tried to hit a .580" diameter yesterday and missed. It ended up being .58025" It wasn't the machine, it's the driver.
> 
> Bought a 935S 'baby bridgeport' from the same vendor. Taiwan made. Quality of the castings, fit, and finish on this thing is very good. Table and knee movement is butter smooth. And again, more accurate than I am.
> 
> Didn't have to repair or rebuild anything. After setup and alignment, they both just start making parts. With proper care, these will outlast me by a long shot. Maybe my step-son will be interested in them by then. Right now he's too busy raising a family.



I've been happy with my Taiwanese made Birmingham variable speed mill head.  Taiwanese products rank higher than Chinese mainland products.  In my opinion


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## Dredb

It's nice to think we may be fortunate enough to come across a new, unused South Bend, Brough Superior, Bugatti, Rembrandt etc, still in it's original crate and with a full range of extras. It doesn't happen very often though and most items found in original crates have suffered a lot of damage due to poor storage, even good storage doesn't always help, sometimes things just deteriorate with age. The situation is much worse when the item has been used for 50 or 100 years. If the price between new and old is similar, then I would now vote to buy the new item. I accept that it may not be as good as the old item was when it was new but neither is the old item now it is old.
The above knowledge was hard won but I have to admit that it doesn't stop me looking for a new unused (whatever) in original crate.


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## umahunter

I wrestled with this same question any type of machine tool for sale in my area is rare unless  I wanna drive 3 hours to Phoenix or San Diego I was very reluctant to buy an old machine that could possibly be worn out especially since I didn't know anything about lathes and restoring an old machine in the end I bought a grizzly  10 x 22 g0602 mainly because they have a huge following and lots of well documented mods on forums and youtube and grizzly has been around a long time so I could get parts if needed so far it's been a great machine for me and is better after I've done some of the mods


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## Chuck K

I feel for you guys that live in areas that have few if any old machines available.  I won't argue about the quality of a 14" or larger Taiwanese machine, but those machines command a lot larger cash outlay than I'm willing to part with.  I enjoy the challenge of bringing an old machine back to life so the old iron works for me.  I can also appreciate that most people would rather have a machine that's ready to rock.  I'm still not sold on the small Chinese machines.  If I have to fix a machine right out of the crate to make it usable I might as well buy the older machine with some rigidity built into it. Just my .02.


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## middle.road

This 13" Clausing went very quickly early in January. I posted in the CL section for the Gent who was selling it. Went for ~$2,000 with just the chucks.
It was in very good shape from what I could tell when I went to see it. Lasted less than a day after his son put it up on CL...


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## Blucllrplt

Was in the same situation.  Looked at numerous old iron.  Many of the higher priced ones had a spray can rebuild with lots of backlash and promises of a lot of remedial work.  I looked into buying a new Clausing but could not justify the price for my needs.  Bought a 1440GT,  had it up and making chips within 6 hours.  Still needs some fine tuning but I’m satisfied with my decision.


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## ddickey

I watched a video on scraping the other day and they mentioned how low quality and soft the cast iron is on Asian imports. I too am struggling with this question but I will be learning how to scrape from a retired machine re-builder so my hope is I feel comfortable buying an older US made machine.


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## projectnut

mikey said:


> Really like the thoughtful responses in this post. What really amazes me is the quality and features found on the larger (11"+) Asian lathes, especially for the price. *Trying to find an old lathe at any price with a D1 camlock spindle, +/- 0.0001" spindle runout, hardened and ground everything, no bed wear and all basic tooling is going to be nearly impossible.*
> 
> 
> 
> To answer this, I would suggest you buy a new Taiwanesium lathe from PM. Dollar for dollar and bang for the buck, they are a good choice.



Again the availability and quality of the machines varies tremendously by location.  I was able to find a Sheldon 13" machine in the Chicago area that had been totally rebuilt including having the ways ground.  I paid about half what it would have cost to get a similar quality Asian machine.  As for tooling the one I purchased came with 3 chucks, several live centers, a drill chuck a BXA quick change tool holder and several other boxes of goodies.

I was alerted to the machine by members of another bulletin board.  One of the long time members needed a larger machine and was putting this one up for sale.  It may be in your interest to look in the classified sections of some of the professional boards.  They have high quality machines at what I would call reasonable prices.

Other places to look are online auctions like Nationwide Public Surplus or similar state and local auction sites.
http://www.publicsurplus.com/

Then there are always the universities and local technical colleges.  Along with that there are always professional shops advertising equipment on Craigslist.  Over the years I've been able to find any machine I was looking for within a 200 mile radius.  All have been in excellent condition and far less expensive than new Asian counterparts.

Granted it will probably take longer to find an old piece of American iron in good shape than it will take to order a new Asian machine.  However for the difference in cost you can buy a considerable amount of tooling.  In some cases the difference in price may also allow you to buy another machine.  Then there's the subject of support after the sale.  Most American machines built in the 1950's and later are still supported.  Parts are still available, and it doesn't take 6 months to get them.

Over the years I have bought a few Asian machines.  Unfortunately the product support was either poor or non existent.  I recall having to wait over 6 months for a replacement part for a HF machine.  I've never waited longer than a week when ordering parts for the older US built machines.

If you're willing to do the research and are patient and persistent I think you'll find lots of old American iron in good condition on the market.


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## Dan_S

ddickey said:


> I watched a video on scraping the other day and they mentioned how low quality and soft the cast iron is on Asian imports.



I watched that video with my dad, when it originally came out and he had a chuckle about how the guy equated hardness and quality with how hard it was to scrape. He quickly went over my head with his metallurgical explanation, but the gist of it was the old castings seemed harder and more dense because they where poor cast iron with a lot of impurities.


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## ddickey

Interesting


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## mikey

projectnut said:


> Again the availability and quality of the machines varies tremendously by location.  I was able to find a Sheldon 13" machine in the Chicago area that had been totally rebuilt including having the ways ground.  I paid about half what it would have cost to get a similar quality Asian machine.  As for tooling the one I purchased came with 3 chucks, several live centers, a drill chuck a BXA quick change tool holder and several other boxes of goodies.



As you say, availability and quality vary widely by location. Many areas of the country are "machinery deserts" and what is available has been beat to hell and painted to cover it. Your machine may have been rebuilt but I assure you that that is not the norm. In the majority of cases the lathe does not come fully tooled and finding and buying a steady rest, follow rest and a full set of change gears can be difficult and expensive.



projectnut said:


> Then there are always the universities and local technical colleges.  Along with that there are always professional shops advertising equipment on Craigslist.  Over the years I've been able to find any machine I was looking for within a 200 mile radius.  All have been in excellent condition and far less expensive than new Asian counterparts.



Again, this varies by location. When tech schools were common in every town ... maybe. Professional shops generally sell mostly worn machines that are being replaced. I've looked at numerous lathes being sold by pro shops and I wouldn't buy a single one of them - filthy, worn and expensive to repair.



projectnut said:


> Granted it will probably take longer to find an old piece of American iron in good shape than it will take to order a new Asian machine.  However for the difference in cost you can buy a considerable amount of tooling.  In some cases the difference in price may also allow you to buy another machine.  Then there's the subject of support after the sale.  Most American machines built in the 1950's and later are still supported.  Parts are still available, and it doesn't take 6 months to get them.



Again, Projectnut, this varies with the area. I've helped to rebuild two 13" SB lathes and I've rebuilt an Emco 8" lathe. The two SB's took years to find. Each cost as much as a brand new PM1236 and both were beat to hell. The cost to repair/refurbish them was way more than we liked because parts had to be found on ebay at fairly high cost. Even after both lathes were done there was enough wear in the ways to be problematic when working up close to the chuck. Sure, we could have shipped the bed to have them reground and then scraped them but by then the cost would have easily doubled. Realistically, not going to happen. Maybe some old lathes are still supported but cost for parts is typically NOT cheap so we need to keep things in perspective.

Some guys like to rebuild old lathes. I enjoyed it myself. But to imply that its easy to do or accomplish by a guy new to the hobby or that its cheaper to arrive at a fully functional lathe ... maybe not the case, or at least not the norm.


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## SSage

I mainly decided to try a Chinese lathe due to the good reputation of Precision Matthews. I only can compare it to an old Logan and it's nice not fighting a worn machine. The lathe arrived in good ready to go condition thankfully. I haven't had any major problems with it, all it needed was a little clean up and gibs tightening. When I realized the coolant pump was doa, they replaced it. Had to get one from China. One day I'll do a vfd conversion. I like how the lathe came ready to go, quick change tool post was installed. Led light works good, love the drill chucks I bought too for the lathe and mill. It's nice not having to buy a project.


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## Aaron_W

My knowledge of the technical differences between machines is essentially limited to what I read here. However there are a lot of similarities to other hobbies I am more familiar with. You see similar debates between Glock and M1911, or new car vs vintage.


I think beyond simply the quality of the machine, as hobbyists we have many other considerations. Some may want the most cost effective and time efficient machine as a working shop would, but others may have different needs, some actually contrary to the "best".
Aesthetics of the machine, history of the machine, ease of use, ability to upgrade, and of course the big one for many of us, available budget.

Used equipment will never be able to compare with new for convenience, and ease of start up. With used you have to find it, evaluate it, get it home, make any needed repairs, track down tooling etc and figure out what is a reasonable price. For some people that hunt is fun and an important part of their hobby. It could be months or years before this machine is fully capable.

A new machine, you go online, find the machines in your budget (which unless you are shopping mini-machines, means an import for most people), choose a vendor, choose the tooling you want and pay your money. Most of the time the seller handles getting it to you, although reading recent posts on that subject there may be some adventure in that as well. Most new machines can be up and running within hours to a couple of days.

Someone here bought an old lathe that had been used in an FBI lab with possible (if unlikely) ties to the investigation of the JFK assassination which to me is just neat. I'm sure there are people who have lathes and mills that may have been used to make parts for M1 Garands or Norden bombsights during WW2, or maybe turned parts for the Apollo or Shuttle programs. That may have huge appeal for some people, and none at all for others.  

Hobbies are weird and tend to defy set rules. Hobbyists also tend to think everybody does it for the same reason they do, despite much evidence to the contrary.


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## Dabbler

IF you are new to the machining game AND don't have a lot of wrench-experience, buy a new one and get started.  No matter what new one you buy it will be worth 50% in a year just because you owned it (even if never used).  The caveat here is that this is not a cheap hobby:  buy a bigger, heavier, and higher quality lathe than you think you will ever use.  Why?  because if you are new, it is far easier to do good work on a more rigid machine.  And then there is 2-inch-itis...  Better buy bigger than have to buy twice.

*That being said*, the best deals are in used iron. IF you are patient AND keep cash on hand, AND you have experience OR a friend that can help you cull out the duds.  I personally love old iron but my first machines were new, and I don't regret that.  After 40 years of doing this, I am primarily looking at good quality, slightly abused, machines that need loving work. (why  do I look?  - because there's always a super deal just waiting to be restored!)

I am finally trying to replace my first lathe, bought new, with one that has a camlock spindle and 1000 pound heavier...


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## SSage

Most folks that ask this new vs old question are not very experienced. So, unless they have a friend to rely on I always suggest buying something with a warranty. I love old antique machinery, last one I bought took $1200 in parts to get fixed right. I'm not a novice buyer, but I don't know everything about 80 year old machines with no manual. When I bought it, I was told it only needed one minor thing fixed and I didn't know any better from lack of experience with the model. Now I know what to look for and what to take apart for inspection. I still came out fine, thankfully I bought the old girl cheap enough to justify the repairs. But, a novice or me can still buy a boat anchor without meaning too.


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## projectnut

mikey said:


> As you say, availability and quality vary widely by location. Many areas of the country are "machinery deserts" and what is available has been beat to hell and painted to cover it. Your machine may have been rebuilt but I assure you that that is not the norm. In the majority of cases the lathe does not come fully tooled and finding and buying a steady rest, follow rest and a full set of change gears can be difficult and expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this varies by location. When tech schools were common in every town ... maybe. Professional shops generally sell mostly worn machines that are being replaced. I've looked at numerous lathes being sold by pro shops and I wouldn't buy a single one of them - filthy, worn and expensive to repair.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, Projectnut, this varies with the area. I've helped to rebuild two 13" SB lathes and I've rebuilt an Emco 8" lathe. The two SB's took years to find. Each cost as much as a brand new PM1236 and both were beat to hell. The cost to repair/refurbish them was way more than we liked because parts had to be found on ebay at fairly high cost. Even after both lathes were done there was enough wear in the ways to be problematic when working up close to the chuck. Sure, we could have shipped the bed to have them reground and then scraped them but by then the cost would have easily doubled. Realistically, not going to happen. Maybe some old lathes are still supported but cost for parts is typically NOT cheap so we need to keep things in perspective.
> 
> Some guys like to rebuild old lathes. I enjoyed it myself. But to imply that its easy to do or accomplish by a guy new to the hobby or that its cheaper to arrive at a fully functional lathe ... maybe not the case, or at least not the norm.




Obviously your experiences are far different than mine.  Over the years I have purchased nearly a dozen pieces of equipment from professional shops.   All of the machines were in excellent condition, and only needed a cursory cleaning before putting them to work in my shop.  Some I've had for nearly 20 years while others have been in the shop for only a couple years.   I don't think I've spent a total $500.00 in repair parts for these machines combined since I've owned them.

In addition I've purchased another dozen or so pieces of used equipment from local high schools, government facilities, and used equipment dealers.  Like those purchased from professional shops none has needed anything other than a cleaning before they were put to work.  I have easily spent as much money on consumable tooling as I have on the machines themselves.  I agree it is not the cheapest hobby in the world.  However it is not nearly as expensive as many others.  Buying a quality tool is usually a once in a lifetime investment.  It's mere age does not render it any less useful or desirable, and age does not necessarily mean obsolescence.

Putting it in perspective I know several people who have spent more money in a 5 year period  on consumer electronics like flat screen TV's computers, cell phones, and tablets than I have spent a lifetime on machine tools.  The truth be known they'll have to replace their electronic devices another 5 times over before I'll have to replace even one of my machines.


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## .LMS.

projectnut said:


> ... It may be in your interest to look in the classified sections of some of the professional boards.  They have high quality machines at what I would call reasonable prices.



Can you suggest such a place?


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## Downwindtracker2

Are you a restorer or a machinist ? 

Even those nice bigger lathes get worn. When I took a course in the late '80s, the college had a couple Japanese lathes Mazak and Okuma? They very nice looking, great to work with, but both were donations for tax purposes. Both were worn. That's why  they got them.

If you look bearing fits, you will be wanting something tighter than .002


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## Chuck K

Finding an old machine that will hold 0.001 is not a real tall order.  When people start talking tenths I really have to doubt that many of the new imports will do it.  The ones that will are on the high end of the price spectrum.


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## gasengin

It really just depends where you are.  If you are in a tool rich area, it's going to be no problem finding good machines given a little time.  If you are not, it is really tough to shop for a lathe or a mill 600 to 1000 miles away.  If it is any good, it is sold before you have a chance to get there unless you have the freedom to literally take off the next day on a 1000 mile trip to look at something that may or may not be was good as advertised.  When I was looking, a couple times where I found one and was going to leave Friday after work, and they both sold before I could leave.  Both were about 700 miles away.  

I ended up buying a used import lathe and mill.  Both were hardly used.  Still had a lot of the shipping wax on them and some of the tooling had never been opened.  Paid about 1/3 of new when considering they came with a fair amount of tooling.  Bought them on an online auction about 750 miles away.  I had been looking for a couple years and seriously shopping for about a year.


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## gasengin

Downwindtracker2 said:


> Even those nice bigger lathes get worn. When I took a course in the late '80s, the college had a couple Japanese lathes Mazak and Okuma? They very nice looking, great to work with, but both were donations for tax purposes. Both were worn. That's why they got them.



Yah, when I was in college in the early 90's there were several old lathes with a lot of wear.  I didn't know the history of the machines, but guessing WWII.  I'm sure they have been gone from there a long time now.  Moral of the story is, "Don't assume they are nice tight machines just because they came from a school or university"


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## mikey

projectnut said:


> Putting it in perspective I know several people who have spent more money in a 5 year period  on consumer electronics like flat screen TV's computers, cell phones, and tablets than I have spent a lifetime on machine tools.  The truth be known they'll have to replace their electronic devices another 5 times over before I'll have to replace even one of my machines.



I don't doubt that you have made some good purchases. In my area, and in many areas around the country, that is not reality. I guess you can find a gem amongst the rabble just about anywhere.

I agree re the electronics. I have a Alienware laptop my son bought for me a year back and it cost more than  some lathes from PM. My son said when it breaks he'll just buy me a new one! Damned thing better not break anytime soon because if it does I'm gonna' push for a new mill!


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## Nogoingback

In the last year or so, I've noticed an uptick in prices for lathes in my area which is a bit of a machinery desert.  The bottom price for complete
machines around here is about $1200.00, but decent looking machines or machines with tooling are now more.  Here are a few examples from
today's CL:

Southbend 10K       $3000.00
Logan 11"                $5000.00
Craftsman 12"         $2500.00
Southbend 9"          $1750.00
Logan 9"                  $2900.00

This doesn't include bigger machines that are only purchased by the most dedicated hobby machinist, or ancient flat belt machines
that are only appealing as projects or for their historical interest.

The days of decent, usable machines for $500.00 are over, at least for this area and as the good older machines dry up that trend will
continue.  (I got my Logan for $600.00, but dumped a bunch more into it to bring it back to life.)  Given these facts, the better (PM)
Asian lathes represent a increasingly compelling price to value proposition.  Are there still deals on American Iron available?  Sure,
but they're getting harder to find, and the buyer still has to be willing to work on them.

I like the old machines, and having spent the time and money on my Logan I'm enjoying it.  But as time goes on I think fewer hobbyists
will want to make the effort to purchase and support them, and since machine shops have switched to CNC, there aren't
any more in the pipeline.

My lathe was built in 1944.  I think lots of people like cars from the 40's and 50's, but how many want to drive them to work?


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## Chuck K

A lot of shops in my area have switched to mainly CNC work but still have all of the manual machines sitting there collecting dust.  They still use them now and then for small jobs but at some point alot of those machines will be moved out to make room for another modern machine.  I think there are still going to be opportunities to pick up old machines.  I hope you're right about the price hike because I have a few machines that have to go.


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## Nogoingback

I'm seeing some of that sort of thing around here: machine shops moving the manual lathes out.  But, a number of them are big machines that
need space and power that only a limited number of hobbyists will buy.  The 10 to 12" machines that newbs usually want don't seem to 
be coming out of machine shops.  Of course, around here there never was a lot of manufacturing:  you guys in the Midwest always seem to
have more to choose from.


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## projectnut

.LMS. said:


> Can you suggest such a place?



I have been a member of the Practical Machinist bulletin board for several years.  Most often I visit the "General" and "Antique" forums.  I was involved in a conversation about Seneca Falls machine when I mentioned my Star#20 was starting to show enough wear that it should probably be disassembled to have the ways reground.  Another member chimed in alerting me to a machine that had been recently rebuilt by a member in the Chicago area.

I decided to call the member and take a look at his machine.  I conned a couple other retired machinists into going along with me to make an inspection.  As it turned out the machine was in like new condition (except for paint), and the asking price was reasonable.   With all the accessories included I didn't even quibble on the price.  The machine came with 3 chucks, a couple live centers, a quick change tool post, a steady rest, a follow rest, a 15 hp rotary phase converter, a couple drill chucks, and a couple boxes of other minor accessories. 

It's a long story, but it was close to 6 months between the time I inspected the machine and the time I brought it home.  It's an excellent machine with far more capabilities than my older Seneca Falls Machine.  Now that everything is settled in the shop I'm in the process of finding a vendor to grind the ways on my old machine.  So far the most likely candidate is Chicago Grinding and Machine Company.  They were the ones that did an excellent job on the ways on the Sheldon.

Over the years I have bought other items from members of that board including machine collets, change gears, and power hacksaw blades.  Everything I have purchased from members has been of the highest quality and at reasonable prices.

There are 2 forums on that board for sales.  One is for machinery sales: 
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-for-sale-or-wanted/

The other is for tooling, parts, and accessories:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/tooling-parts-and-accessories-for-sale-or-wanted/


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## malmac

I was originally offered a old English lathe - but I had never had a lathe before - so didn't know what to look for.It would probably have been a better buy than the new Chinese lathe I bought instead. After six years of light work I replaced all the bearing in the head unit - ran much better - but by then I was over it. I really spent a lot of money and bought a new Colchester (yes with the pretty blue and white 600 machinery colours). One of the things I love about this lathe is the oil pump that feeds the headstock bearings and the replaceable oil filter. Yes it has lots of nice normal features - but this is one you dont see - but I know it is there - and also where all the lubrication points are.


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## Ironside

If you have time, and can afford to wait for the right one to come along, there are some really great deals to be had. Check this one out that just popped up this morning in the Boston area.

This is a lot of really nice old American iron for a grand.   https://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/tld/d/logan-10-inch-metal-lathe/6507059938.html


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## Splat

I wrestled with this same question and I guess we all do in the beginning. For a newbie to machinery I suggest buying new from a reputable seller, like Grizzly or Precision Matthews. This takes a lot, if not (should be) most, of the worry of getting something of questionable condition, plus you get a warranty. Unless you know what to look for, or have someone that does, you can easily buy something better suited to keeping a boat moored. Some sellers will slap a new coat of paint or clean up the machine to look well taken care of and it's easy, especially for the newbie, to get worked into a frenzy thinking you're getting a deal.


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## wrmiller

Splat said:


> I wrestled with this same question and I guess we all do in the beginning. For a newbie to machinery I suggest buying new from a reputable seller, like Grizzly or Precision Matthews. This takes a lot, if not (should be) most, of the worry of getting something of questionable condition, plus you get a warranty. Unless you know what to look for, or have someone that does, you can easily buy something better suited to keeping a boat moored. Some sellers will slap a new coat of paint or clean up the machine to look well taken care of and it's easy, especially for the newbie, to get worked into a frenzy thinking you're getting a deal.



I never even considered an old machine. For many reasons actually, but I won't discuss them here on the forums. The lathe I have now, (PM1340GT) is every bit as good as any similar sized/capacity lathe from a half century ago . And it was brand new and came with a warranty. 

Not picking on old iron, I'm just saying that some of us are not interested in it is all.


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## Aaron_W

Splat said:


> I wrestled with this same question and I guess we all do in the beginning. For a newbie to machinery I suggest buying new from a reputable seller, like Grizzly or Precision Matthews. This takes a lot, if not (should be) most, of the worry of getting something of questionable condition, plus you get a warranty. Unless you know what to look for, or have someone that does, you can easily buy something better suited to keeping a boat moored. Some sellers will slap a new coat of paint or clean up the machine to look well taken care of and it's easy, especially for the newbie, to get worked into a frenzy thinking you're getting a deal.



Tooling and parts are another issue. With an in production machine finding that add on piece or replacement part is as simple as going to the company website and ordering it. Depending on the age, brand and relative popularity of an older machine that does not always seem to be the case. It seems like there are a fair number of posts related to people trying to find bits and bobs for their older machines. 

A skilled machinist can probably work around most of those issues and make many of the needed parts they can't find. Not all of us are skilled machinists... some of us are still working towards trained monkey status and need all the advantages we can get.


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## sailor1845

I have had nothing but bad experiences with China & Taiwan made machines! A company I do some work for purchased a Grizzly lathe for me and in short order it went south on me.  They replaced Grizzly with a Bolton made lathe.  In less than a year the belt tensioner bearing went bad and when I called Bolton, they told me I can get the part in 2 to 3 months. The part had to come from China. I replaced the Bolton with a Logan 1255V made in 1968.  Yes it required some cleanup and adjustments.  
I have had the Logan for almost a year now and NO problems!  Yes I did replace the 3 phase one horsepower motor with a new 2 horsepower single phase 220 volt motor. 

Buy American, The job you save, May be your own!


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## mickri

I went through this same issue.  As a newbie with no experience to guide me I was nervous about what to buy.  And money was a big issue.  The first thing that I did was figure out what I wanted to be able to do.  If you want to be able to turn something that is say 28 inches long it would be a waste of time and money buy a lathe that can't do what you want to do.  This is the very first decision that you have to make.  Next is how much can you spend.  By asking for advise on what to buy you probably don't have money to burn.  The answer to these two questions will guide you from this point forward.
Because I couldn't afford a brand new lathe in the size that I wanted I had to look at used equipment.  I did lots and lots of research.   My ideal lathe would have been a South Bend heavy 10 with at least a 30 inch center distance.  I never found one at a price that I could afford.  As to how to determine whether a lathe was a piece of junk boat anchor or worth buying I figured that a lathe being retired out of service from a machine shop was probably worn out.  A lathe coming out of a school might be ok because it was never used all day long 6 days a week.  The most likely least worn lathe would be from someone's garage shop used in their hobby.  These parameters guided me in my search.  I searched for well over a year.
I ultimately found what I was looking for only a couple of miles from my home.  I paid way more than my budget because the lathe came with every possible attachment except for a taper attachment, multiple chucks and tooling and other assorted bits and pieces.  I am the 3rd owner.  The original owner used it in his hobby to repair and restore some kind of one cylinder pump engine.  The second owner never used it.  I really don't know why he bought it.  He was into old cars and 4x4's.  The lathe sat in his garage for several years collecting dust.  Although the lathe was dirty and covered with oil soaked grime it appeared to be in excellent condition.
I was also looking for a mill/drill.  Bought one from an estate where the deceased had purchased it new and then suffered medical issues.  It had never been used and had sat first in his garage and then in storage for over 10, maybe 15 years.   It did not come with any tooling except for a Walther 15" rotary table.  A local machine shop snapped up the Walther as soon as I put it up for sale.
In a nutshell figure out what you want, what you can spend and then take your time looking.  If you are patient you will find what you want at a price you can afford.


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## Splat

I'd love to buy American. I think most of us Americans here would agree. However, that's not always feasible or within monetary means. I just went thru this with my cousin. Unbeknownst to me he was looking at an old Heavy 10. First timer, at the mercy of the seller, and he thought he was getting a great deal. Nope. He got taken. $1.5K later and now he's asking me what to do. The old American machines by now are pretty beat up. How tight are your desired tolerances? They won't be that tight with most of these machines and they'll probably need a good cleanup, if not parts swap outs, to get them up and running.


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## projectnut

I keep hearing about the lack of good American machinery on the market, and frankly don't believe it to be true.  As mentioned in earlier posts there are areas of the country where there is less than others, but again I find it hard to believe there is nothing worth buying on the market.  There will always be con artists and scammers willing to sell a bag of magic beans.  It's up to the buyer to be sure they are getting what they pay for.  If you don't have the expertise to know whether a machine is worth the asking price it's up to you to find someone with the expertise to help you.  

It's no different than buying a car.  There's a scam artist on every corner willing to sell you grandmas Cadillac that was only driven to church on Sundays.  If you're willing to accept that at face value you're going to get an education.  If you're not careful that education could be very expensive.

It takes time and perseverance to winnow out the good from the bad.  There are plenty of good used American machines on the market.  Earlier this year I had a local shop owner offer me a Black Diamond drill grinder built in 1974 that looked like it was all but new in the box.  He had bought it as part of a lot at a government auction 5 years ago.  After taking up space and never being used for 5 years he offered it to me at  less than 1/20 the price it sold for new.  This machine is so pristine it looks as though it had never been run for more than demonstration purposes.

Quality American machines are out there.  You just have to be willing to put forth more effort than browsing through a catalog to find them.  Of the over 20 old American machines in my shop I would bet every one of them could be put in a production shop and run for years with only standard maintenance and replacement of minor wear parts.


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## Splat

Easier said than done for a lot of folks. Not everyone has someone they can take with them to look at a machine. I'm in the tri-state NY area so you'd think there'd be plenty of good American machines around. Yes, but they're usually asking TOP dollar for them without accessories.


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## Nogoingback

I think Splat has it right: it's easier said than done.
In my area, decent lathes are thin on the ground, and of course it isn't good enough to just find a decent machine, it has to be the right
machine at the right price.   The older Logans, South Bends etc. are getting pretty darn old (mine is 74 years old), and the newer
machines (Clausings, for example) with hardened ways are for the most part still in machine shops.  projectnut, your example of the Black
Diamond grinder is a great story, but it's like the Rolls Royce in the barn: everyone wants one, but in reality there are very few
out there and most of us could spend our entire lives and never find a deal like that.  It certainly isn't typical.  More typical in my area
is worn out junk with no tooling, or increasingly, large machines that are too big for most hobbyists, (with
no tooling).  Once in a while, a nice looking machine pops up (with no tooling) which the sellers believe is made from gold.  (Like the local guy
selling a Heavy 10 for $7500.00.)    As good machines become more scarce, the prices will go up further.  And, while some folks don't mind
spending months, if not years finding the right machine, and have the skill and knowledge to evaluate and repair them when they find them,
it's tough attracting new people to the hobby with these kinds of barriers to entry.


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## mickri

More newbie perspective.  What the newbie really has to do is determine what they would like to do with a lathe.  What I have done so far with my lathe could have probably been done on a 7x10 mini-lathe.  I suspect that most hobbyists don't need and will never use the capability of the 12x36 lathe that I bought.  Same goes for a mill.  A round column mill/drill even with all of its issues is still probably all a hobbyist would ever need.  We hobbyist are not trying to make a living at this and rarely will make more than one of something.   As an example the only thing that I foresee me making multiples of is tool holders for the Norman style tool post that I am making.  I plan on making 8 tool holders.

The main reason I bought a 12x36 was so that I could rebarrel some old mausers that I have.  Even with that parameter in mind while I was searching for a lathe I figured out a way that I could do what I wanted to with a smaller lathe.  I think that the chances of finding a decent smaller lathe is pretty good because a smaller lathe would not typically have been used in a production shop.  During my search I ran across several smaller lathes that looked promising.  But they were either in the San Francisco bay area or down south in LA.  Going to either of those areas is a 500 to 600 mile round trip from where I live in the foothills 50 miles east of Fresno.  I ultimately found what I was looking for not far from my house.


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## Silverbullet

Must be bad in nj I posted about free Hardinage lathes and no one even wanted one on here. Place is giving them away if Any are left I don't know . I'd like one but not able to get it , physically not able. I'd pay for gas and some extra of course but it is what it is. 
I'd get the pm from Taiwan if I were you.


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## projectnut

I don't believe NJ is nearly as devoid of old American Iron as some may think.  I just went to Craigslist and found Atlas, Comet, Bridgeport, Brown & Sharpe, Lagun, Cincinnati, and Tree mills for sale.  There were also a few European built machines listed.  There were also several South Bend lathes as well as Rockwell, Clausing, Hardinge, Sheldon, Seneca Falls, and Logan machines currently for sale.  There were far more American built machines listed than either Asian or European built ones.  

Some had hefty asking prices while others were quite reasonable.  Keep in mind an asking price is just that.  The final price can be considerably less.  To put things in perspective I have only once paid the asking price.  In this case the machine was in such good condition and came with so many accessories I thought the asking price was quite reasonable.  In most other cases I have paid far less than the asking price.  In one case the seller reduced the price of a saw by over 50% before I even asked if the price was negotiable.  I have found in most cases the owners want the machinery gone and will entertain any reasonable offer.  

I do not consider myself an accomplished negotiator.  I just do my research before looking at a machine and offer what I consider to be a reasonable price.  I don't try to belittle the machine or the owner, or point out defects in attempt to get a lower price.  I just know going into the process what I am willing to pay.  If we can't arrive at an acceptable price for both parties I just thank the owner for their time and move on.


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## jdedmon91

SSage said:


> I looked at a few South Bends and Logans in the SE and the prices were too high for well worn machines. I wanted a bigger lathe, so having it shipped to my house was a major plus.
> 
> I'm tired of fighting old iron, my fairly small 1200 pound or so PM1236 is less hassle, easy to read dials, warranty, yep... Buy new. I spent less on the 1236 with tooling and accessories than some of the SBA 9's went for around here with modest tooling.
> 
> My first Asian lathe, it's nice and new, 3 year warranty. It's more precise than the old iron I've been around. It's a Chinese made machine, so the paint is typically china style finished, but I'm making good parts on it.



I went the both ways. My Lathe is a Grizzly G750g (the gunsmith model) again for the same reason ease of getting up and everything working. It replaced a Lathemaster that I out grown. 

Now when I wanted a bigger mill. I seriously looked at the PM large bench mills but decided that the biggest thing I wasn’t happy with was the z axis range of travel. So I started looking for a knee mill. I got lucky and found my Lagun FT-2 close to home and in great shape. Yes I had it moved by riggers, installed x axis power feed and a DRO. Those items were removed in the business by one of the machinists there ( he was hoping the machine was going to be offered to him at scrap price). 

So it’s a crap shoot on the way to go. I would have not gotten the mill but I could get it up and running the way I wanted to with out major repairs yes I paid more than up north but par for CLT area used machine prices. 

The thing is there is something to say about purgatory new machine and being able to call the seller ( I had good experiences with both Grizzly and PM) for assistance 


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## Smithdoor

The lathe work as day they are made
Even small 9" & 10" Where made with quick change and tapper atchement 

I do not see any smaller China lathes that have tooling need even lot of large do not have the tooling 

Some will say the old does not come DRO but most of new China do not come with DRO. But can put on both.
On a lathes I found DRO do not live long. 

Dave 

Dave 





tyronejk said:


> Around where I live outside of Atlanta, I frequently find old lathes on Craigslist listed for about the same as new import lathe (using PrecisionMatthews lathes as a reference, since they're supposedly one of the good import lathes). The lathes I'm looking at are around 10"-12" by 20"-28".
> 
> I see a lot of guys find old South Bends and the like for $600-800 up north, so I'm not sure if $2500 for an old South Bend (and most don't seem to come with much tooling) is worth it. I have a couple of years of experience machining as a hobby, so it's not enough to be able to restore a really beat-up machine and I'd like to get started making parts rather than turning the lathe itself into a project.
> 
> So for roughly the same cost, would you recommend sticking with old iron or new chinesium? I'd be using the machine for hobby projects. 90% of it will probably be aluminum - 1 thou is probably sufficient.



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## Smithdoor

FYI I have had to work on both old and new to 0.0001" to fit bearing 

Dave 

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## sailor1845

I have a Logan 2555V lathe built in 1968 and a Dyna-Myte  2400 CNC Vertical Milling machine built in 1969.  Both are American Made.  The lathe is as original and the CNC Mill is original except the electronics has been updated.   I am a Mechanical Engineer and use them to prototype parts that I design.   I have checked them both for their precision and they are both right on the money.  
Speaking of money, The lathe came at a cost of  $1400 and the CNC mill cost was $1500.  Both came with some tooling.  I live in Upstate New York and not too far away in Connecticut are numerous Machinery dealers.  I had my choice of many lathes and Milling machines.  The only major work that was done to the lathe was replacement of the motor which was originally a 1 hp 240 volt 3 phase with a 220 volt 2 hp single phase.

Recently I visited a rather large local machine shop.  Almost all of their machines are vintage American made.  They do have two large lathes made in Taiwan.  The General Manager told me that the new lathes are two years old and have been giving them problems.   The day I visited, they were waiting for some parts and did not  expect them  for at least two more weeks.  I had the same problem with a Bolton lathe.  Parts were not immediately available.  When I need parts, I need them NOW!  Not two to three months from now.

Being that I have two machines that are fifty years old, I have been checking online for parts availability for my machines.  Both Logan Engineering and The new owners of Dyna-Myte machinery have an abundance of parts available.  

Please do not take this wrong, but I avoid buying anything made in China, Taiwan & Mexico.  I feel  part of my job is to keep Americans working.  Anything I design MUST be made in the U.S.A.  That is in my contract.  

Buy American
The job you save
May be your own!


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## DiscoDan

I bought my 12x26 Craftsman at a farm auction for $110. It was used hard and needs lots of cleaning up and replacement parts. But as I do the work of fixing and cleaning I learn more about the part of the machine, how the machine works and how it is adjusted. Would I like to actually be using it right now.....yes of course but I am learning along the way.


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## Downunder Bob

Depends, depends , depends. Like any second hand machine a lot rests on the condition. If you can get a good second hand machine from a reputable maker that would be a great choice.

On the other hand If looking at imports be very wary of chinese made, I know there are some good ones out there, but it appears to be very much a lottery. Taiwanese machines, on the other hand have a well deserved good reputation, and are still relatively affordable, that is / was my choice as I couldn't find a decent second hand one at the time.


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## SSage

I'm glad I did try an Asian import. I have American iron too, but its worn and you must play with them much more than my manual Chinese machines. I don't see anything American in the same ball park price wise.

I've used the PM-1236 for over a year. I run it for 8 hours a day sometimes. Then it sits for a few days, but I run it weekly. The 12x36 was a great value, can't beat the Precision Mathews Preferred Package with the coolant, quick change tool post installed and the brake is nice to have IMO. Previously my projects were made on a 10" Logan.

I'm no expert at all, so having a warranty and good product support is a huge advantage. I looked at Gizzly, Bolton, DRO Pros lathes etc. Precision Matthews won my sale, well two sales now. I bought a PM-727M too. Haven't had any issues really in operation. Just had a bad coolant pump on the lathe that was DOA, I just put a mister on it and ended up liking that better anyway. They replaced the pump, it took a while coming from China as you would expect.

I like the dials and the overall size of the lathe, it takes up less room than the old Logan.


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## sailor1845

I seriously doubt that these Asian machines will be around for 50 years as are their American counterparts.   Price should not be the only criteria .  Quality, precision and longevity should be major factors.   Parts availability is another consideration.   Time , effort and money can lead to a machine that will last a lifetime.  As one gentleman previously said, you also get to learn more about the inner workings of these machines.


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## Smithdoor

The best part of USA made small lathes is back gear head stock. 
Most of the Asian machines do not have back gears, both lathes and mills
The use belts and or reduce the motor speed.
The back gears are use for low speed cuts so reduce or eliminate chatter 

Dave 

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## projectnut

sailor1845 said:


> I seriously doubt that these Asian machines will be around for 50 years as are their American counterparts.   Price should not be the only criteria .  Quality, precision and longevity should be major factors.   Parts availability is another consideration.   Time , effort and money can lead to a machine that will last a lifetime.  As one gentleman previously said, you also get to learn more about the inner workings of these machines.



One thing to consider is the market that the machines are targeted for.  Most of the old American iron was intended to be used on a daily basis in a professional shop.  As such they had to be constructed to maintain their tolerances over many years and millions of cycles.  They had to earn their keep and make a profit for the company or in short order they would be replaced by a machine that could.   

I recall attending a trade show several years ago and talking to a vendor that made machines for the food processing industry.  This vendor caught my eye because his company was building machines to accomplish the same task as those our department was building for our companies proprietary use.  The machines didn't look all that substantial so I asked how long they were expected to last in a commercial setting.  He seemed  rather proud of the machines and boasted they should last up to 10 years with heavy use.  He defined "heavy use" as up to 40 hours per week.  I thanked him and went on my way.  I didn't bother to tell him the machines we had designed and built over 40 years ago were still running, or that they were running an average of between 80 and 100 hours per week, and longer during peak demand times.  His machines were designed and built for a much different market than the machines we built.  I believe the same is true of the Asian machines marketed to the hobbyists as opposed to the American built machines of the past being marketed to the professionals.

Other things that should be considered are whether are parts available, and is the model you are looking at in the current model line?  Factory or vendor support the machinery is important if you are buying because you expect the machine to be covered under some type of warranty.  Parts availability is important whether the machine is covered by warranty or not.

Almost all American machines produced since the 1950's still have vendors that support them.  Parts are available in hours or days depending on where you live, not weeks, months, or longer.  Some time ago I purchased a 1,000 lb. hydraulic table from HF.  The ram started leaking about 2 days out of warranty.  I tried to get them to cover it but to no avail.  I had to order a new ram with an "estimated" delivery time of 3 weeks.  Three weeks turned into over three months because that model was no longer being produced and was now considered "obsolete".

The same thing happened with a Asian built appliance.  This time after spending months in the shop the company said "because of it's age" (13 months old) the model was deemed obsolete and parts weren't even available.  At the same time I found at least 12 mainstream appliance retailers that were currently selling the same model in their stores and online.  I mentioned that to the factory rep and asked how they intended to support those sales if parts were no longer available.  His answer was that if the units failed under the warranty period they would be replaced by a similar model currently in the model lineup.   If they failed outside the warranty period the company would gladly sell them a new model.


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## sailor1845

So they build in Planned Obsolesce.  They will gladly sell you a new machine.  American companies never seemed to work that way.  I can get any part I need for my 50 year old Logan in a matter of days.  Unlike the Bolton lathe that was forced on me by a client who looked to get the cheapest way out.  I was not willing to wait 2 to 3 months for a very simple part (belt tensioner).  As the previous gentleman said, I also have the advantage of having Back Gearing!


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## jdedmon91

sailor1845 said:


> So they build in Planned Obsolesce. They will gladly sell you a new machine. American companies never seemed to work that way. I can get any part I need for my 50 year old Logan in a matter of days. Unlike the Bolton lathe that was forced on me by a client who looked to get the cheapest way out. I was not willing to wait 2 to 3 months for a very simple part (belt tensioner). As the previous gentleman said, I also have the advantage of having Back Gearing!



That might have been so in the past. Not sure now. 

One thing more modern CNC lathes aren’t built heavy for the reason the electronic components become so outdated that then you have a piece of scrap. Updating the electronics cost as much as a new machine. Case in point we had 2 CNC lathes at my former employer ( where I retired from ) that was awesome machines. One lost a drive board. The machines were 20 years old and still holding tolerances of + - .00025 on hard turned shafts. The control vendor (Siemens) didn’t stock replacement boards and recommended replacement of the electronics at the cost of 100k. Tried to get electronics repaired. No luck. 

Replaced it with an Okuma that wasn’t half the machine. Kind of sad to see the old girl hauled out for junk 


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## sailor1845

My 50 year old Dyna-Myte 2400 CNC Vertical Mill (American Made) was updated with new electronics using the MACH3-3 software.  That software is fairly universal and does not have much of a learning curve.  With a little bit of knowledge and some time and patience almost any machine can be converted.  All the electronics and stepper motors came from a manufacturer in Florida.    The first photo is before update the second after.


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## jdedmon91

sailor1845 said:


> My 50 year old Dyna-Myte 2400 CNC Vertical Mill (American Made) was updated with new electronics using the MACH3-3 software. That software is fairly universal and does not have much of a learning curve. With a little bit of knowledge and some time and patience almost any machine can be converted. All the electronics and stepper motors came from a manufacturer in Florida. The first photo is before update the second after.



Great conversation for a home hobby or small shop machine. Industrial machines have a lot more folks to satisfy 


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## rodm717

Thos are some of the sweetest small lathe's, manual and cnc, i have seen. It is good to count your blessings!


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## kb58

Regarding metric gears and buying an old lathe either missing the feature, or even missing all the change gears:

Electronic lead screws are starting to appear. There's a spindle speed sensor that gets divided down and fed to a stepper motor that drives the lead screw. The advantage is that you can then cut _any _thread, and also have any drive rate. The cost (if you make your own) will be far less than what a set of custom change gears would run. Just another option.


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## mickri

Metric threading isn't that hard to achieve on some old lathes.  There are threads on here about converting atlas/craftsman lathes to cut the common metric threads.  I made the conversion on my craftsman 12x36.  It only required me to purchase two gears that I got off Ebay for less than $50.  I can now cut the common metric thread while still being able to cut imperial threads from 8tpi and up through the QCGB on my lathe.


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## Dan_S

Not to mention some times you don't even need new gears, you just need to arrange the ones you already have in a different orders. If you have 4 to 6 gears in the train, and a decent number of gears on hand, you mathematically have hundreds of thousands of combinations.

When I first got my little 8x14 I wrote an application the calculated all the combinations. I quickly found I could theoretically thread any pitch with a lead accuracy better than any ground ball screw you could buy.


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## kb58

Unless the lathe was supposed to come with an external set of change gears but didn't.


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## epanzella

I think which way you go depends on how much you know. It takes a lot more know-how to both buy and refurbish old American iron. I had an old $500.oo 11 inch Logan for 30 years and made lots of stuff on it. The down side was I considered it a miracle to produce work within .005 just by turning. The finish was so bad I could hardly measure it. I finally sold it (for what I paid for it) and got a Grizzly G4003G gunsmith lathe. Now I get a nice finish and can work to .001 standing on my head.


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## rodm717

It depends on the specific lathe, condition, price range, and skill/experience of the buyer/owner. It also depends on what you plan to do with it and tolerance needed.
The availability  of older lathes in preserved condition is low. The availability of new lathes is high.


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## Winegrower

The OP asks about old American vs. new imports.   I’d throw old imports into the mix as well.   I am very pleased with my Takisawa TSL-800, a Japanese designed, Taiwan produced lathe from 1976.   It’s a 14” 2500 pound lathe, 3 HP, all the features and gears necessary.   I got it from a machine shop closing, the owner bought it new.   The design is typicall Japanese, very close attention given to moving and rotating parts.   It’s impressively smooth and solid.


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## Pcmaker

There is NO way anyone should recommend buying an old machine to a new hobbyist. I've been on this hobby for over a year and there's not a chance I'd buy an old machine. Maybe after 15 years, I'd be comfortable enough to get one.


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## matthewsx

There's really no right answer for this since so much depends on your budget, abilities and the condition of any particular used machine. 

I bought my Seneca Falls Star lathe for $300 and used it mainly for cleaning up racing go-kart engine parts for the first few years I had it. It replaced a Chinese 3 in 1 that didn't do anything well, or so I thought. Looking back, if I had been more patient and willing to learn I probably could have made the 3 in 1 do decent work but I didn't have anybody to teach me and I only saw the flaws in that machine. To be clear, I still wouldn't recommend one of those machines to a beginner but it might not have been as bad as I thought.

This past year I've put a lot of effort into my Seneca Falls machine and It does pretty much what I need it to do. I learned about grinding HSS bits and when to use indexable carbides, I put an AXA qctp on and replaced the old out of balance motor with a new 3-phase and a VFD. I bought a set of collets and finally got the backing plate tapped out for the 4-jaw chuck I bought years ago. In short I spent the time to learn what my machine could do and how to use it.

Now, would I rather have a nice new Taiwanese lathe (or even better a good used heavy duty machine like a Takisawa)? Why yes, yes I would. But even with everything I've put into my Star I'm probably $2k away from any of the machines I would buy if I had the money. So, if someone has three or four grand to drop on a lathe you can either get a good used machine or a decent import. If going used you better bring someone experienced with you to check it out before spending that much, but there are probably good machines out there in that price range. Buying new gets you support and a warranty but you will still have to put the time in before you'll get good results.

I would say it's kinda like buying a guitar,  trying to learn on something that's no good will be frustrating regardless if it's new or used.  However, you could get a brand new import of dubious quality, or the finest vintage Stratocaster available but neither will make you into Eric Clapton. Putting in the work is the only way to get the results you desire.

Cheers,

John


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## Dabbler

I have to add that condition of the lathe is everything - new or used.  I bought a taiwanese produced 12X36 lathe in 1983 or so brand new, and it worked great - for  a while.  but the seals died, and it has been a pain to add oil to the bearings.  So only a complete rehab will make this lathe  a joy to use.  The same is true for many of the lower cost offshore machines - the new ones that is.

I purchased a 14X40 chinese lathe, used last year.  I found so many hidden problems brought on by previous owners that I am discouraged by it.  It will be a great lathe when I'm done with it, but the effort wasn't really worth it.  So I am selling it after restoration.  I'm not a newbie. I still got less than I expected and paid more than I should have. (I'm 200 hours in to it now and about 50 more to go).

I just acquired a LeBlond 15X60 7.5 HP lathe that was made in 1980.  Why?  -- because it has been so well cared for that it is in better than showroom condition.  As I said condition is everything.  It was also less money than the 14X40 I bought last year.  More capable,  More accurate.  Old US Iron.  But carefully selected and found after 20 years of looking for my perfect lathe.

Moral of the story:  If you buy used, take an experienced guy for a second opinion and expertise about condition of the lathe.  If you buy new, ditto.  NEVER buy a lathe unseen (sorry vendors).  Take the time to go to the vendor and carefully examine the machine you want to buy.  It should impress you at every turn.  If you can't afford a lathe that is good quality, then expect poor capabilities, or save more and buy better.

We have a vendor here that unboxes your lathe and checks it out by a qualified millwright and puts it on the floor.  You buy it off the floor and you can see everything - they will even power it up for you at request (and serious buying intent - not tire kicking)  You pay about 1000$ more there, but they deliver it to the exact spot, set it up and it is leveled and ready for use.  That's how to buy a new lathe for a beginner.  Worth the extra savings.  They support your purchase long after they have to.  They sell used lathes the same way...


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## mickri

There is no answer to this question other than it depends.  I would wager that the virtually all of the guys like me with absolutely no machining experience other than maybe a high school shop class taken decades ago  that want to get into machining for whatever reason have no one they know with sufficient experience to drag along with them to look at a lathe.  I didn't.  And how often would that person be willing to go on wild goose chases looking for the perfect lathe.

Everyone has a budget that dictates what they can afford.  If that budget allows for a brand new lathe.  Fine.  But if that budget barely allows for a small older lathe are we to tell that person sorry but you can't be a part of this hobby.  Go do something else.  I don't think so.  IMHO the best advice that can be given is to try to buy the best machine that they can afford that suits their needs.

I spent most of my life racing sailboats off So CAL and down into Mexico.  Whenever anyone would ask my friends and I what they should buy our first question was always have they made a statement of requirements of what they wanted in a boat and how they intended to use.  Commonly referred to as a SOR.   Only then could we give any meaningful suggestions on boats that might meet their SOR.  The same holds true in machining as a hobby.  The newbie needs to think about what they want to make.  What they want to use their lathe for.  The newbie also needs to be honest with their capabilities.  Are they a "Macgyver" or can they barely change a light bulb.  All this and more should be included in a SOR.  Someone who wants to make clocks has very different needs compared to someone who wants to do gunsmithing.  Or who wants to make steam engines.

When this questions comes up we should focus first what they want to make and then on their budget.  Then offer suggestions on lathes that would meet their needs and places to look for decent equipment.


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## mmcmdl

Old thread with an on-going question . In the terms of lathes only , I prefer older iron . Growing up on Hardinges , Cohlchesters , Pacemakers , Regals etc , the newer imports feel lightweight IMO . I owned a brand new ShopFox lathe a while back that I sold because it just never felt right to me . Perhaps this doesn't make sense to some on here , but I'm not a hobby machinist by trade . The lathe held tight tolerances and I'm sure it would have sufficed for gunsmithing duties , but I would still prefer an older Clausing . Just my opinion . It isn't the machine making the parts , it's the operator standing in front of the lathe . I currently have an old Clausing 12" that will most likely be my keeper and an Atlas 12" to go .

As far as mills , I haven't owned or operated a mini-mill so I can't comment . I've owned Bridgeports , Laguns , Encos , Sharps etc . They are all nice if properly maintained . I run an Enco in at work which has the 2 speed motor . Nice feature .

It comes down to what you prefer , budget , parts being made etc . Only the purchaser can make that decision .


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## Dabbler

We have a wide spread membership, and many of our senior members are always willing to help newbies with their shop.  If you don't know an experienced machinist, ask here - if we don't have anyone near you, we might be able to find someone to help you evaluate a lathe.

Very few people are lucky enough to get their lifetime lathe on their first try...  If you are going to develop and progress in this hobby, equipment upgrades should be expected... This often happens in sailing (I've sailed for 30+years) - ever hear of 2-foot-itis?   

One of the worst things of getting a poor quality lathe:  it takes a lot of experience to do good work on them, and they are lousy to learn on.  They are very likely to turn you away from an enjoyable hobby.


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## matthewsx

There must be some kind of connection between this "hobby" and sailing. 

I live in an area where we have an awful lot of powerboaters, mostly pontoons and runabouts but some serious express cruisers and trawlers. I also belong to a very active sailing club that seems to host national championships every year. One of the things I love about both hobbies is they keep both mind and body active and you can get better as you age. 

Perhaps that's why so many of us love the older machines, it seems like the effort you put into "old iron" is usually rewarded with better performance while newer "price point" machines you have to work on just to get them working correctly from the start. 

While my San Juan 7.7 isn't the fastest boat in the fleet it's mine, paid for, and sails better than I can most days.

John


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## mmcmdl

70 Chevelle SS vs. 2019 Honda Civic . Both get you from point A to point B . If I had the choice , bet you all know which I would purchase !


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## jwmay

i think this is the wrong question to begin with. What we need to be asking ourselves is, “How can I buy both?”


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## mickri

San Juans are nice boats.  I currently have a Gulfstar 37 with an extended transom.  I added the extension the last year I was cruising in Mexico.




Lived aboard for over 10 years.  Now I am back to being a dirt dweller living on 5 acres.  And got into hobby machining for something to do.


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## projectnut

I would strongly suggest that if you are new to, or want to get into machining as a hobby you take one or more evening classes at a local technical college.  The odds of making a good decision on what machine(s) to purchase will be a pig in a poke unless you have some knowledge of what machinery is available and what the  machinery is capable of.  Just because a machine is new and shiny doesn't guarantee it is capable of making accurate parts.  With most foreign built machines there is no or minimal guarantee that support or parts will be available after the sale.  Like anything else you have to be somewhat educated on the subject before you can make informed decisions. 

Keep in mind most old American iron was designed and built for the professional.  That means it had to withstand millions of cycles over decades of time.  It also was built to make parts accurate to within .0005" to .001" each and every cycle.  Should repairs or replacement parts be needed they could completed and put back into service, not once, but multiple times before the machine was worn beyond repair.

I've had a couple foreign machines in the shop, and even though they failed when under warranty it took several months to get replacement parts.  Fortunately these machines weren't critical, but still waiting for months for parts is disappointing to say the least.

On the other hand I have several American made machines dating from the early 1900's to the late 1980's.  Parts for the earlier ones are still available from eBay or Craigslist, and parts for the newer ones can be found through professional repair shops and parts suppliers.  In most cases it takes hours or days to get replacement parts rather than weeks or months.  The nice thing is that repair parts are rarely needed.


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## jwmay

Honestly as someone who’s gone both routes, it’s a wash. I’ve bought old American(Atlas), and I’ve bought new import (Grizzly4002), and I’ve bought piles of old American parts that made a lathe eventually(Atlas). 2/3rds of the time, I was happy with my decision. 

But for a very first machine, I will never suggest buying a supposed diamond in the rough old American lathe. I’d say you’re money ahead buying a smaller new import to learn on. There are just too many variables at the beginning. And findin an old machine with a steady rest, follow rest, faceplate, and other basic lathe accessories seems unlikely outside of a major urban area. Buying a new one means you’ve got everything it came with, and nobody has done some janky old repair to the innards of the carriage 30 years ago, and then left it to rot til you came along. If you really believe that imports are junk, then my advice doesn’t hold. If you buy it expecting it’s garbage, you’ll find reasons enough to wish you’d have bought old American.  The mind is tricky like that. I’m very happy with my import lathe. I’m very happy with my second Atlas lathe. Both were money well spent.


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## ThunderDog

A never ending question for sure.  Having lived in the Mid-Atlantic and now in Montana, I can definitely say that location plays a part into this decision.  Old iron in the Mid-Atlantic was abundant and cheap.  Here, a tiny Atlas lathe comes with a stupid high asking price and no tooling.  So glad I didn’t sell my stuff.  Now.... just need to find a way to get it shipped here.


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## Joeman77

I have to vote for the old American Iron, I've got a 70 year old Monarch that I've been through from stem to stern, it'll still hold good numbers, but you're right metric threads are a no-go. But it will take a good heavy cut, you can get down close quick then split hairs to hit the mark. It's not high speed by any means, spindle tops out at 1000rpm's.


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## Downunder Bob

mickri said:


> San Juans are nice boats.  I currently have a Gulfstar 37 with an extended transom.  I added the extension the last year I was cruising in Mexico.
> 
> View attachment 303435
> 
> 
> Lived aboard for over 10 years.  Now I am back to being a dirt dweller living on 5 acres.  And got into hobby machining for something to do.



Nice looking boat, I've heard it said that a boat is a hole in the water to put money in. And I believe it's true. I own  a house boat on the River Murray in Australia. The river has a total navigable length of about 1900 Km, of which I have travelled in the houseboat about 1650 Km (1025m) My houseboat is 21m long and 8m wide powered by a 2.6L holden (Think small 6 cyl, chevy 1950's-60's era). motor driving a paddle wheel. At the stern Here we are with a group of friends taking a trip on the river around Jan 2014. That's me leaning on the BBQ. The boat is a 6 berth, al;though you can get 8 on board, a bit tight, but doable.


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## Downunder Bob

As for old iron against import. I'd much prefer old iron from US, UK, Australia, Japan, Germany. Any day if it's in good condition. The problem is here getting one in good condition. They're pretty scarce in any condition, but in good condition, forget it. 

Which is why I had to settle for an import, and again that is why I went for a Taiwan product at least you get a serviceable item up front, something that you don't have to pull apart and rebuild just o be able to use it. I spent months looking at all the chinese imports and couldn't find any that I thought were worth it. 

So eventually a trip to Melbourne 500m away to a dealer who specialised in Taiwan machines. Not only were the machines so much better, but the service was also. Very happy to plug in a demo machine and let me  have a play. and I was impressed. And three years later i'm still impressed very happy with my Taiwan purchase. A tool room quality machine, too short for gunsmithing, well a pistol maybe, but many of it's longer brothers would be ideal.


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## RobertB

It's different now. 30 years ago I would have hesitated to tell a newbie to buy an old used machine. Now with the internet everything you need to know to look for on a used machine is readily available. It just comes down to whether or not the person is an impulse buyer or someone that is willing to do the research before he buys. For the latter I would have no problem recommending old iron. Quality aside, if you are patient, one of the big advantages of a used machine is the amount of tooling that you can get with one.


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## mickri

Patience is a virtue in looking for a older lathe.  I spent over a year of looking before I found my lathe just a couple of miles from my home.  After awhile I concentrated my search on estate sales with at least some documentation as to prior usage.  Some of the stuff that came with my lathe was still in the original shipping boxes and envelopes with dates and addresses.  The lathe had been lightly used by a hobby machinest it's entire life.  I believe that my lathe was a rare find.


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