# Question about welding polarity



## GA Gyro (Nov 27, 2014)

I have not done much stick welding in a while... seem to have forgotten a few things...

Have a Lincoln gas fired stick welder... which BTW; on the faceplate suggests it can be used for an elec source for both MIG and TIG welding... will discuss that in another thread.

The welder has the options for AC, DC+, and DC-  

As I remember; DC+ means the stick is positive, and the work negative... so the arc is going from the work to the stick...
And DC- would be the stick is negative and the work is positive... so the arc is going from the stick to the work...
Or do I have that backwards...

Now the important question(s):
*Which one is better for welding steel parts... like sq tubing and angle...
*Which one tends to run cooler or hotter... 
*Which one gives a better (stronger) joint...

THX... kinda need a simple refresher on stick welding.

BTW: Rods used will be 1/8 or 3/32", either 6013 or 7010... the latter tends to run a bit hotter, yet yields a stronger weld.

THX for any comments!

John


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## JimDawson (Nov 27, 2014)

You have it right, electron flow is negative (an excess of electrons) to positive.

Normally for DC welding the electrode is negative.

Both 6013 and 7010 would work for most applications.  If I remember correctly, the 7010 is a deeper penetrating rod, something like 6011, but is harder to get a really nice smooth weld.  The 6013 will give nice smooth welds, normally fine for light structural work like work benches, light machine frames, etc.  For higher stressed parts like trailer hitches, trailer frames, heavy equipment repairs, etc., I normally use 7018.


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## Karl_T (Nov 27, 2014)

depends on which stick you're using:

    E6010 = designed to be used with DCRP
    (Electrode +) deep penetration, good metal transfer in vertical and overhead positions. Commonly used for welding pressure vessels, pipe and shipyards and repair work.
    E6011 = designed to be used with DCRP (Electrode +) but can be used on AC. All positions, less penetration than 6010, Has more spatter during welding. A material choice for galvanized steel and for rusty and oily steel in maintenance and repair work.
    E6013 = designed to be used with AC or DC either polarity. If has a shallow pointer-action and spatter is exceedingly low. It can be used in all positions, A good electrode for vertical down welding.
    E7014 = designed for high speed welding, all positions and AC or DC either polarity. It is an iron powder electrode with smooth arc transfer. Low penetration, good for sheet metal and ornamental iron work. It has a higher deposition rate that E6012 and E6013. the coating provides good restrike characteristics and good melting.
    E7018 = designed to be used with AC or DC reverse polarity (Electrode +) they have a low hydrogen base flux with iron powder added. It has a moderate penetration and a build up. These rods are very susceptible to moisture, which may lead to weld porosity. Commonly used for pipe, heavy sections of plate boiler work, and low temperature equipment.


If using 6013 I like electrode + unless welding very thin stuff

EDIT   My mistake, I said this sentence backward. Electrode + makes it burn in more. Use elctrode - for thin stuff. There's a reason I have a typed laminated page of instruction of the front of my welder. CRS is my constant companion.

Sorry,

Karl


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## JimDawson (Nov 27, 2014)

Karl, you and I seem to be diametrically opposed in the polarity.  This make me wonder if I have been doing it wrong all these years.  The old guy that taught me back in my heavy equipment days, about 45 years ago, used electrode negative for everything, and that the way I've always done it.  Now I need to try it the other way and compare the result.  I may have to learn to weld all over again.:veryscared:


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## ray hampton (Nov 27, 2014)

I went two years to welding school 1969-1970 and what I were taught seen to be different today as to the direction of current flow , 6010 was direct currant ,reverse polarity, I doubt if the use of 6010 will ever change


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## GA Gyro (Nov 27, 2014)

Thank you all for the replies...  

I have a LOT of 1/8" 6013 rods (probably over half my stock is 6013), so I probably will use that rod.  Most of the welding will be either 3/16 or 1/4 wall sq, rect, or angle.  Should not have an issue with overheating the work and blowing holes in it.

The other two rods I have are 7014 and 7018... both of which are 3/32 size.  

Also have some off brand rods from Northern tool that do not have an Exxxx designation on them.  Prolly play with them sometime and figure out how they weld... and assume they are similar to one I have.  

One of the packages of 6013 is open at the end... I placed it in front of a heat supply vent... to dry them out (I have always stored welding rods inside my home... climate controlled... as opposed to in the shop.  Drier inside the home).

Another question:  As I understand it:
When one welds with positive polarity (that is, + on the rod and - on the work)... this means the arc jumps from the work to the stick.  I have heard it said this runs a little cooler on the work... as opposed to the other.
Is this true?  

Also; which one is called normal polarity, and which is called reverse polarity...

THX again for replies!

GA


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## GK1918 (Nov 27, 2014)

Just a thought Ga,   have you ever tried the brown rod  called Jet rod or drag rod?  ac/ dc dont matter like 70,000 lb wright your name with it flows perfectly but flat  It dont like
verticals .....

                            Just a saying


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## GA Gyro (Nov 27, 2014)

GK1918 said:


> Just a thought Ga,   have you ever tried the brown rod  called Jet rod or drag rod?  ac/ dc dont matter like 70,000 lb wright your name with it flows perfectly but flat  It dont like
> verticals .....
> 
> Just a saying



Honestly, have not.

I have some rods here... was hoping to not have to buy more.

I probably will go with the 6013 rod... and try DC with positive on the rod and negative on the work... Runs cooler... as I understand (?).


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## juiceclone (Nov 27, 2014)

regardless of the formula of rod used:
"
Three types of arc generation are feasible:



Direct current, straight polarity (electrode negative, DC-EN) → *deep penetration*
Direct current, reverse polarity (electrode positive, DC-EP) → *low penetration*
Alternating current (AC) → *medium penetration"*


*electrode neg* = more heat into the weld because rod deposits slower so you can move slower

*electrode pos* = less heat into the weld, more into the electrode, and because the electrode is melting faster makes you move faster

*AC =  *something of a balance

of course different rods behave differently, but using the same rods, the rules above apply
)


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## GA Gyro (Nov 27, 2014)

juiceclone said:


> regardless of the formula of rod used:
> "
> Three types of arc generation are feasible:
> 
> ...



Thank you SOOOO much!

This is what I think I am looking for.

I think I will take some scrap metal and run a couple of beads to establish amps... then
Run a bead each of the e ways noted above.

This should determine the better method for this project.

Hope to get some pics... if they come out well... will post them.

THX to all for posting...

Appreciate it!!!

GA


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## sdmuleman (Nov 28, 2014)

Generally most work is DCEN - negative electrode. Most of the heat flows into the base metal causing a more narrow deep penetrating weld. DCEP (positive electrode) causes more of the heat the flow into the electrode relative to the base metal so you get a shallower wider pool. This should also help clean the weld metal, although this is more useful in TIG. This action is caused by the ion stream that you get - (electrons flow from - to +, but you also get a flow of ions from + to - to balance it out) when the ions strike the metal atoms they tend to 'knock' off things like oxides. The downside though is a hotter electrode - something like 2/3 of the heat is at the + side. 

I think AC tends to be used for for various specialty stuff - what I usually use is 7014 (I think, maybe 18) with DCEN for general welding of steels. I'll use MIG (flux core) for light metal. What I recall is that 6011/13 is typically used more for out of position and field work, and 7014/18 is if you can weld it normally. I find 7014/18 to be easier to use and they lay more metal faster. The 70xx series are stronger (first 2 numbers are tensile strength in x1000 psi) but they also really should be stored dry or in an oven. Moisture is bad for electrodes period, but IIRC  7014/18 are more sensative than 6011/13.


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## PlasmaOnTheBrain (Nov 28, 2014)

AC welding is for limited transformer type machines (think lincoln toombstone machines) and back in the days of pre wire fed processes, was used with Big electrodes to overcome arc blow. 6011 was made to weld "better" than 6010 with AC. They make a 7018AC for use with those type machines because normal 7018 doesn't like to stay light with AC. Both types of rods have additions to the flux to help keep the arc light when switching polarities in the AC cycle.


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## GA Gyro (Nov 28, 2014)

Well...

I am not sure if this counts as first chips... however got out my new Jet bandsaw and cut up some rect, sq, and angle stock.  Took some of the cut scraps, and ran some beads on them... just to get the feel of welding again... I do not know how long it has been since I did any stick welding... at least 4-5 years.

The first couple of beads looked pretty bad... uneven, pitted, lumpy. Tried the half-moon pattern, the 'bounce' pattern (down on one side, up and over to down on the other side), the circular pattern... decided the half moon was working the best for me.  Then the 'hang' of it started coming back... beads started to look better.
After fiddling some more; remembered how I used to do it: Start out with one circle, then change to half moon, then the last sweep is a circle.  Seemed to make a nicer looking start and end.

Was using a 7014 rod, 1/8 dia, gas powered welder was set at 125A, with the variable knob at 9 (on a scale of 1-10).
Tried AC, DC+, and DC-... each had its specific characteristics.  
Of the three, the DC+ seemed to make the nicest looking bead... 
The AC seemed to lay a bit flatter, yet was more uniform...
The DC- (electrode negative, work positive), was the most difficult to run a bead... the beads repeatedly came out with pits and voids...  
Then for the real test: Ran three beads side by side; AC, DC+, DC-... then put the piece of metal in the bandsaw and cut the welds in half.  Surprisingly, the AC had the best penetration... probably technique on my part I did not notice.

Anyhow, tests do not lie... so I am gonna weld the mill stand together with the welder on AC.  

After running a few more beads, started in... The beads are not looking half bad... considering I have not done any stick welding in years.  
Guess one really can just hop on a bicycle and ride it... 
However...
One CANNOT just jump back into an airplane... and fly it... Story for a different thread...  (No accident or property damage... just a rather amusing story for another time). 

THX again to all for the postings... I really do appreciate the help!

I have some pics in my cell phone... If I can figure out how to get them onto this forum, will post them.

GA


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## sniggler (Nov 30, 2014)

This subject comes up a lot and even old welders don't always agree. I am a welder by trade welding structural steel in construction. This has already been stated here but here goes.

Straight Polarity is a negative electrode and a positive ground. It is expressed as DCEN (direct currant electrode negative) on some labels.

Reverse Polarity is a positive electrode and a negative ground. It is expressed as DCEP (direct current electrode positive).

In construction the most common electrode for stick welding is 7018 (1/8 inch and 5/32) which is use primarily in reverse polarity DCEP. 7018 is and all position welding rod meaning it can be used for flat, overhead and vertical welding on material from from 3/16 and up although thinner material can also be welded with it.

7018 is a low hydrogen welding wire and like all welding wire should be kept dry. Once a can of welding wire is opened we use a rod oven the keep the wire dry but a box heated with a light bulb can work. I have put rod in the kitchen oven as well. 

6010 is another very common DCEP wire which is now use mostly for root passes on pipe but used to be the primary welding wire. I used to use it a lot on barge repairs to stop leaks it does a good job on dirty material but it throws a lot of sparks around. 

Generally with a DC welder available few welders would use AC for stick welding except in some special circumstances. 

My advice to anyone starting out stick welding would be work with 7018 as your all around wire. Also go to the Lincoln web site and get the Handbook of Arc Welding Procedures for your collection, you will also see a series of project books there that may spark your interest.

Bob


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## JimDawson (Nov 30, 2014)

GA said:


> Well...
> 
> However...
> One CANNOT just jump back into an airplane... and fly it... Story for a different thread...  (No accident or property damage... just a rather amusing story for another time).
> ...



You are not going to leave us hanging with that teaser are you?:veryscared:


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## sniggler (Nov 30, 2014)

Just to show the lincoln site http://www.jflfoundation.com/SearchResults.asp?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=24&show=5&page=1

Lincoln is really the american welding company and they promote education you can see the prices of the books are quite reasonable. 

bob


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## GA Gyro (Nov 30, 2014)

JimDawson said:


> You are not going to leave us hanging with that teaser are you?:veryscared:



Yes...
















Naaah....

Will start a thread in the off topic area... one of these days... and talk about flying.

Here is a teaser:

The two videos below are two gyro fly-in gatherings recently (Wrens was late October, a BEAUTIFUL day), and Barry's gathering was mid Nov, a bit chilly, due to a front that just came through)... attended both of them.  The guy doing the video is REALLY good at this... he used A drone for some of the shots:

This was a Wrens GA, a small community about a half hour WSW of Augusta, GA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFQ_iwaSAJg

This one is at Anson Cty field, about 45 minutes ESE of Charlotte NC: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2inm_nBjw

This video is at our hanger in W GA, I think it was in Jan or Feb... CedarTown field (4A4 for folks that know airport jargon):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWRaL3yqv8o
The guy in the blue plaid flannel shirt is me... albeit about 15 Kilo's heavier than now... 

BTW: The appearance of multiple rotor blades in flight is something digital video cameras do... gyro ALL (with just a few odd exceptions) have 2 rotor blades... it is part of the FAA designation that qualifies to fly with a SPL (sport pilots license).


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