# Craftsman 109/atlas 618



## Jester966 (Oct 22, 2015)

I know the 109 is not an Atlas.

I have an Atlas 618 that I am rebuilding.  It was in very rough shape cosmetically, had no extra gears or tooling, but was cheap and had no major functional issues.  A 109 just popped up in my area for $130 OBO - it comes with what looks like could be a complete set of change gears, four-jaw chuck, and tailstock drill chuck.  Are any of these items interchangeable with my 618 with or without modification?

I'll try to grab it for $100 regardless.  It looks like it's in decent shape, and I figured even if the above are not useable on my 618, I could do a quick refurb and resell for a profit.  My first (personal) lathe was a 109, about 8-9 years - I rebuilt it but barely had a chance to try it before I sold it.

Sorry, I could look up the specs myself but am at work right now (nights) and will be sleeping as soon as I get home - hoping to have an e-mail from the seller and go pick it up when I wake up this afternoon.

Thanks


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## CluelessNewB (Oct 22, 2015)

I believe the gears can be used on either machine.

IIRC the tailstock on the AA 109 is Morse Taper 0 (MT0) but the Atlas 618 has MT1

The spindle threads are also different ( 1/2"-20 or 3/4"-16) for the AA 109 and either (1"-8 or 1"-10) for the Atlas 618.


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## wa5cab (Oct 22, 2015)

Jester,

Please let us know what if any difference there is between the AA gears and the Atlas gears.  The only thing that ever seems to get posted on this subject is that someone will write that he "thinks" that the gears are interchangeable.  

The drill chuck will have to have the arbor changed as if it fits the AA, it is #0 MT.  As Rich wrote, the 618 tailstock taper is #1 MT.  There probably isn't any practical or economical way to use the 4-jaw chuck on the 618 if it fits the AA.  

If the AA is a Dunlap without lead screw it is a 109.0702.  If it has a lead screw (since it has change gears, it must), it is a 109.0703.  In either case, the spindle nose threads are 1/2"-24.
Otherwise, it is either a 109.20630 or 109.21270 and has 1/2"-20 threads.
The Atlas 618 has 1"-10 nose threads.  The only Atlas built metal lathe with 1"-8 threads is the 101.07301.  The 101.07300 (only built for one year 1938), had 3/4"-16 threads.


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## Jester966 (Oct 23, 2015)

Thanks for the info.
I guess someone beat me to it and bought it for the asking price.  It would have been nice to have the gears if they matched, but if the four-jaw wouldn't be usable anyway then... whatever.

I've had the bed ground and professionally painted with an aircraft grade epoxy.  I think I am probably better off without the 109 as I want to make a collet chuck for the 618, and my plan was to make or buy cut gears for it which I'm sure would be smoother running than the atlas or craftsman gears anyway.


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## pgmrdan (Oct 23, 2015)

I may be falling for clap-trap but I've read that the 109 is a rather delicate lathe that is not for beginners.  They often have bent spindles.  Yada-yada-yada.

They are cute little things and I had thought about getting one until I saw that type of stuff about them.  I'm glad I bought my 101.07301.  There are two 618's available near me and I'd certainly like to check them out if I had the money to buy one right now.  I think I'll shy away from the 109's until I hear some better things about them.


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## Jester966 (Oct 23, 2015)

I agree - I wouldn't buy one myself either, except for $100 it seemed like a cheap way to get gears and a 4-jaw, and some extra HSS tooling which it came with.  I didn't actually want the lathe itself.


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## wa5cab (Oct 23, 2015)

Jester,

Of course, if the 4-jaw chuck actually fit the AA, it wouldn't fit the Atlas anyway.  But assuming that the change gears do fit the Atlas 6" models, $100 would have been a good price for a more or less full set.

Dan,

We have an official site policy against running down anyone's equipment.  But the AA lathes have a 1/2" diameter spindle compared to around 1" for the Atlas 6" models.  Strength of solid round stock varies as the cross section, which varies as the square of the radius.  Both spindles are hollow so it's a little more complicated than that.  But the Atlas spindle is considerably stronger.  When both groups of lathes were available new, say in 1957, the 101.07301 sold for $173.50 versus $57.00 for the 109.21270, or 3:1.  Of course the former has a countershaft and 16 speeds versus 6 speeds for the latter.  In 1959, the 101.21400 (Atlas 618 with Craftsman badge) price was down to $167.50 (probably because of economy of scale) and the 109.21270 was $59.50.  On the other hand, the 109's take up less bench space.  Most of them are 6x12's and without the countershaft and the back gears hanging out the back, the depth required is less.


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## pgmrdan (Oct 24, 2015)

Didn't mean to be running down 109's.  I was just repeating what I've read and suggesting that one should check the spindle if what I read was true.  Every machine has its strengths and weaknesses ( please read: http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/109/109a.html ).  By pointing out what may be one potential weakness I didn't mean to be running down the whole machine.  I was also hoping that someone could either verify what I have read or discredit it.  They seem to be a lighter machine and if you take that limitation into account I'm sure one can have a lot of fun with one.

I still like the looks of them and would like to consider one in the future.  When/if I do consider buying a particular 109 you can be sure I'm going to check the spindle so that I know ahead of time whether or not it will need to be replaced.  Buyer beware!  Knowledge is power.

I'm still watching some 109's on craigslist ( http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/isnt-this-a-craftsman-109.39408/#post-338053 ) and doing a little reading about them but currently I have my sights set on a 618.  I'm going to look at it tomorrow afternoon.

Sorry that I came across poorly.  I'll be more careful.


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Oct 24, 2015)

109 (AA Manufacture) lathes are pretty, and can do most any within ifs small
compass, but the Atlas will do real Work.........BLJHB.


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## wa5cab (Oct 24, 2015)

Dan,

My opening comment wasn't aimed at you particularly.  Just that I have to be a little careful what I say about various machines.  It is a fact that bent spindles happen not to be uncommon on 109's.  But you can bend or break anything if you persistently overload it.  Fortunately, we do have (or I do if I've forgotten to upload them) decent machining drawings for several of the 109 parts, including the spindle for the 109.20630 and the front spindle bearing for it and the 109.21270.  So buying one and finding that it does have a bent spindle isn't necessarily a show stopper.


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## pgmrdan (Oct 24, 2015)

Not a show stopper but it could be a bargaining chip when haggling over price.


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## wa5cab (Oct 24, 2015)

Of course.


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Nov 18, 2015)

Only two more remarks-- I f you can buy a real junker with gears, do so. $60.00>.
Also, the  # 0 taper isn't really -- consult Lathe City. .......BLJHB


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## kd4gij (Nov 20, 2015)

I would like to find a 109 cheap doesn't need to be complete. It would be the base for a bench center. That said the pen turners crowd like the 109 as it is a better option than the small wood lathes out there.


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Jan 29, 2016)

The Liberal Arts Garage said:


> 109 (AA Manufacture) lathes are pretty, and can do most any within ifs small
> compass, but the Atlas will do real Work.........BLJHB.


          Just a short note-- think of the AA  series as pleasing Models of real lathes.
They can be greatly improved with carefull work,following the literature , Fun!.
But they will still be what they are. ..........BLJHB.


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## utterstan (Feb 20, 2016)

so are the gears the same as 618


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Feb 20, 2016)

Far as I know........BLJHB.


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## tomh (Feb 20, 2016)

*yes* the 109 gears will fit the 618/3950/1012100/101100 and other 6x18 atlas craftsman lathes. The only difference that I can remember is the 1/2 bushing is a tad narrower but will work fine. I have had the 109 and the 6x18 atlas lathes and have used the gears interchangeably.   The 109 lathe may be small but is a fun little lathe to use and very capable of making quality parts. it is a light duty lathe, so yes you can bend the 1/2 spindle if not careful. The 109 came in a 6x12 an 6x18 bed and either a 1/2 or 5/8 spindle tumbler reverse and a planetary  back gear. The tailstock is a #0 taper, But it is different than the #0 on other lathes. 
 I would buy it!


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## wa5cab (Feb 21, 2016)

The 6x18 versions were the 109.0702 (for wood turning, no lead screw) and 109.0703.  Made 1941-43, and has a 1/2"=24 spindle nose threads.  The 6x12 models are the 109.020630 (made 1947-48) and 109.021021270 (made 1949-61), both of which have 1/2"-20 spindle nose threads.

All that I have on the 0MT sockets in the spindle and tailstock ram are those on the reverse-engineered drawings done by Lionell Weightman 22 years ago.  His drawing of the spindle shows a big-end diameter of 0.339".  Machinery's Handbook say 0.356".  So a 0MT dead center will not fully seat.  If I were making a new spindle, I think that I would make it solid and instead make a short dead center that screwed onto the spindle.  However, his drawing of the tailstock spindle (ram) shows a big end of 0.356" whereas M-H shows 0.3561".  Numerous people have said that the tailstock taper on the 109's was under sized.  I've no way of determining whether Weightman corrected it or whether that's just Internet Disinformation like on the 618 spindle nose threads.


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Feb 21, 2016)

wa5cab said:


> Jester,
> 
> Please let us know what if any difference there is between the AA gears and the Atlas gears.  The only thing that ever seems to get posted on this subject is that someone will write that he "thinks" that the gears are interchangeable.
> 
> ...


.     The earliest AA  series - 702/703 - ( narrow bed) have a 
1/2 - 24  spindle. Later wider bed, 1/2- 20 .........BLJHB


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## utterstan (Feb 21, 2016)

thanks  for the info


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## tomh (Feb 22, 2016)

For anyone interested in these lathes,  there is a site called  lathesuk  it covers most of the lathes you can think of and then some. The AA109 and the atlas/craftsman lathes are listed form beginning to end. Defiantly  a site worth looking at all the different  lathes and milling machines.


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## The Liberal Arts Garage (Mar 14, 2016)

Jester966 said:


> I know the 109 is not an Atlas.
> 
> I have an Atlas 618 that I am rebuilding.  It was in very rough shape cosmetically, had no extra gears or tooling, but was cheap and had no major functional issues.  A 109 just popped up in my area for $130 OBO - it comes with what looks like could be a complete set of change gears, four-jaw chuck, and tailstock drill chuck.  Are any of these items interchangeable with my 618 with or without modification?
> 
> ...





The Liberal Arts Garage said:


> .     The earliest AA  series - 702/703 - ( narrow bed) have a
> 1/2 - 24  spindle. Later wider bed, 1/2- 20 .........BLJHB


Please,buy the
109 , check it out. If it's basically good,clean it up and sell it; with gears, etc it is valuable, $300.  Set of gears, $85.  If junky (bad bed, etc.) buy cheap, sell good
parts, keep gears. ......BLJHB.


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## madmikesmech (Oct 30, 2022)

wa5cab said:


> Jester,
> 
> Please let us know what if any difference there is between the AA gears and the Atlas gears.  The only thing that ever seems to get posted on this subject is that someone will write that he "thinks" that the gears are interchangeable.
> 
> ...


Hello, I just picked up a 109 0702,  with lead screw, but no thread gear set!


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