# Broken Atlas 10F Countershaft Pulley 560-060 / 9-427



## RandyMcNally (Nov 28, 2020)

The large 2-step horizontal countershaft pulley on my Atlas 10F survived 71 years until it met me. I pulled a bozo move and broke it in less than a year (1st pic below).  On to a few questions...

1. Anyone have an extra pulley you’d be willing to sell? 

2. I’m seeing used pulleys on eBay for $100. Or mymachineshop.net has the redesign aluminum pulley for $150 (2nd pic below). Does anyone have experience with and/or an opinion about the redesign aluminum pulleys?

Thanks for any info.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 28, 2020)

I have not used mymachineshop.net, but i can say that the aluminum pulley would be a better choice than the OEM zamak pulley.
I’d personally pay the extra $50


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## mmcmdl (Nov 28, 2020)

Ouch , I'll bet that made a bang ! I think your answer depends on if you wanted to keep the lathe as it was built . I personally would go with the oem if it could be purchased off the bay . JMO .


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 28, 2020)

@Ulma Doctor Thanks for the reply. That’s what I’m thinking, too. He calls it a heavy duty pulley, and specifically references the flimsy Zamak pulley. I’m hoping that means it will be exempt from the common wobble issues.

I’m still waiting to order anything until I call Clausing on Monday. I doubt they stock any of the cast parts, but it’s worth a phone call.


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 28, 2020)

@mmcmdl Thanks for the reply. I would normally completely agree. But I’ve seen multiple people describe the same wobble issue I had with my pulley. The thought of spending $100 on an OEM replacement and getting a wobble as bad or worse as the one I had is disconcerting.


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 28, 2020)

Oh and it did make a bang, indeed! Ha

I’m not always a bozo. I made the counter shaft bearing carriers shown in the picture. I used my brain when removing the pulley the first time, blocking the puller with some wood and being careful. I needed to remove it again after installing the bearing carriers, and that’s when Mr. Bozo showed up.

I had one of those classic thoughts that haunt you for two weeks: “Well, I just removed/reinstalled it. Everything is clean and oiled now. Surely I can put the puller straight onto it without any trouble..”  Wrong!  I felt the tension get way too high; I just kept on cranking like a ding dong.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 28, 2020)

I agree with you on that . The aluminum would be stronger and hopefully run a bit truer than the cast pulley . I'm just an old fart that likes old original iron . I'm finding out the replacement parts for these older lathes are worth more than a complete lathe when selling .

I sold an Atlas complete with tooling awhile back for $400 , should've parted it out !



			https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/sold-atlas-lathe-10d.61467/


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 28, 2020)

For anyone wondering: it did not snap clean off like in the picture. Two of the spokes broke. I managed to break the remaining two during subsequent shenanigans. Not only did my mistake hurt emotionally & financially, but it also ruined my shop plans for the holiday weekend. So I’m out here screwing around with some JB Weld - out of sheer shop boredom, not any expectation of it working. I decided to rubber mallet the busted pulley back onto the shaft to check for perpendicularity as I clamped the arms. That’s when I managed to turn it into a 2-piece model.

Note that I’ve already decided I won’t have the stones to turn it on - in the unlikely event it even survives unclamping.


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 28, 2020)

@mmcmdl Don’t go to the dark side! You did the honorable thing. I can’t stand seeing a parted out vintage machine on eBay. I try not to hurl my full judgment at the screen. It’s not like I have blueprints and can prove when they had a 100% whole machine. But I unload a good 90% of my judgment on the seller when I _think_ it was whole ha


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## mmcmdl (Nov 28, 2020)

I know for a fact ..............3 piece models vs. one piece are a heck of alot easier to re-install on most equipment . We do it everyday in here at work !


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## mmcmdl (Nov 28, 2020)

RandyMcNally said:


> @mmcmdl Don’t go to the dark side! You did the honorable thing. I can’t stand seeing a parted out vintage machine on eBay. I try not to hurl my full judgment at the screen. It’s not like I have blueprints and can prove when they had a 100% whole machine. But I unload a good 90% of my judgment on the seller when I _think_ it was whole ha



That machine went to a very young man starting out in our hobby , and I didn't need the lathe . We both made out great . He got the lathe , I got the extra space in the garage .  And it all went for $400 , he was quite happy .


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## WCraig (Nov 29, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> I have not used mymachineshop.net, but i can say that the aluminum pulley would be a better choice than the OEM zamak pulley.
> I’d personally pay the extra $50


For a pulley, Zamak and Aluminum (depending on alloy) would likely be more similar than different, no?  

In fact, my impression is that Zamak provides a harder surface and thus would not wear as quickly along the walls of the pulley where the belt rubs. Wikipedia says that Zamak 3 is the most common alloy and has a Brinell hardness of 97.  Aluminum hardness is all over the map depending on alloy and heat treat.  Of course, I'm not a metallurgist and don't even play one on TV!

Craig


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 29, 2020)

WCraig said:


> For a pulley, Zamak and Aluminum (depending on alloy) would likely be more similar than different, no?
> 
> In fact, my impression is that Zamak provides a harder surface and thus would not wear as quickly along the walls of the pulley where the belt rubs. Wikipedia says that Zamak 3 is the most common alloy and has a Brinell hardness of 97.  Aluminum hardness is all over the map depending on alloy and heat treat.  Of course, I'm not a metallurgist and don't even play one on TV!
> 
> Craig


Zamak can’t take impact, aluminum is superior in that aspect as well as aluminum is not prone to crystallization like zamak.
The Oem pulley was poorly designed and prone to breakage due to thin castings


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 29, 2020)

I had an 1953 atlas TH42, that was hurt bad by the PO.
Almost all of the zamak components were either broken or crystallized.
I spent a pretty penny to replace the poorly choiced zamak


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## kcoffield (Nov 29, 2020)

I agree with the commentary. There's pros and cons to Zamak versus aluminum. For my Pulley project...








						Atlas/Craftsman Lathe Motor and Countershaft Pulleys
					

I converted my 12” bench top lathe to a under drive cabinet model, and mentioned in my intro and refurb thread here:  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-caretaker-of-two-12-craftsman-lathes.87335/  …when I bought the lathe cabinet surplus, I got everything except the 2-step countershaft...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				



....there were a couple other factors. Since I was lost foam casting, Zamak has a considerably lower melting/casting temp so wasn't sure I'd be able to vaporize the foam effectively. I have lot's of experience with aluminum and they were easy parts to cast with that method. The Zamak would potentially have better as cast mechanical and wearing properties. I'll have to heat treat the A356 but 60-70 Bhn(c) hardness should be easily achievable and it will machine and wear much better at that temper. Wrought alloys would be even better.

Best,
Kelly


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## markba633csi (Nov 29, 2020)

Ebay is both a curse and a blessing.  If you need a part it's great, but buying whole machines has gotten tougher and much more expensive
It's affected Craigslist too
-Mark


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## Grinderman (Nov 29, 2020)

Maybe I'm the odd duck out there but I really haven't seen the need for the two step pulley system. I have the original large pulley and it's very wobbly so it had to go. I split the difference between the two sizes and went with a 8" single pulley up top and a 3" on the motor. You can get aluminum at most any hardware store or if you can weld the farm stores have hubs and steel pulleys in most sizes. Between the 4 speeds and the back gears, I seem to have all the speeds I need for the stuff I make.
On a side note, I purchased an all steel upper compound slide for my 10F from mymachineshop and am very pleased. Joel is a good guy to work with and makes a decent product from my experience.


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## JPMacG (Nov 29, 2020)

Good comment Ginderman.  I never use the smaller sheave on the large pulley....  maybe I did once for turning wood.  A single-sheave pulley to match the large diameter would work for me.


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## WCraig (Nov 29, 2020)

Ulma Doctor said:


> Zamak can’t take impact, aluminum is superior in that aspect as well as aluminum is not prone to crystallization like zamak.
> The Oem pulley was poorly designed and prone to breakage due to thin castings


Are you referring to "Zinc Pest"?









						Zinc pest - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




AIUI, this was strictly due to lead impurities being present in the Zinc component of the alloy.  Certainly, there are tonnes of Atlas machines still in use out there that are working just fine.  I'm sorry that you had a problem but I don't think it is widespread among remaining machines.  

The OP mentioned how his pulley had survived 70 years before an encounter with Dr. Bozo.  Trying to remove any large pulley that is tight on a shaft by pulling on the rim is...maybe not the best strategy.

Craig


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## wa5cab (Nov 29, 2020)

Zamak, or more specifically Zamak V or 5, is an excellent die casting material except fir the Zinc Pest problem, which is caused, as Craig indicated, by contaminated feed  stock.  So only a relatively small percentage of total production would be affected.  And basically, if the parts haven't already crumbled, they aren't going to.  I will also remind all that were it not for the availability of Zamak or something similar, there would be no relatively plentiful supply of Atlas machines around because they would not have been sold in anything like the quantities that they were.  Had Atlas Press attempted to get into the machine tool business competing with South Bend and Clausing without the advantage of all of the cheap to produce die-case parts, they would most likely have been out of business before the beginning of WW-II.  And this Forum wouldn't exist.  As it was, Atlas tried to make a few things out of Zamak that they shouldn't have.  The first group they corrected fairly soon.  About 43 years later, those people were probably all dead and the second mistake appears to have been the main reason for shutting down production of the 6" Atlas.


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## RandyMcNally (Nov 30, 2020)

I appreciate all of your input. 
That is an interesting discussion about Zamak vs. aluminum as it pertains to this application.  I had not considered those points.  
Robert, your encyclopedic insights are always appreciated.

You guys may have seen my comment a few moments ago on @kcoffield 's similar countershaft pulley thread, but I thought I'd post my update from today here, also:

Clausing _does_ have the pulley in stock. I've only called them 3 times, and they've had all 3 parts in stock (half-nut scroll, carriage lock, and this countershaft pulley). That absolutely blows my mind.​​Ordered one today. $86 + shipping. In my giddiness, I forgot to ask him my total with shipping. Actually...one sec I'll check my bank. $111.04 to my door. So: holy crap on the shipping, but still a helluva deal compared to eBay - especially for an assumedly new part. And hopefully that means either a wobble free part, or I can hold them accountable for a wobbly part.​​He did confirm for me (well, via the picture in his system; he did not physically check the part on the shelf) this is the "Craftsman style" with 3 concentric weight-saving holes. It is not the "Atlas style" with 4 curved spokes/arms. He did not know which part number it is, only that 560-060 and 9-427 both cross-referenced to this 3-hole style he has in stock. And he said he has "a few" of them in stock.​​I asked a couple extracurricular questions about their vintage stock. Is there any rhyme or reason to which parts they do/don't stock? Without laughing at me, can you confirm there's nothing close to an inventory or catalogue for customers?​I'll summarize his answers:​
No rhyme or reason. Some parts they have; some they don't. 
They have parts to machinery (not limited to lathes, of course) going back to 1930's. 
They sell "a lot" of this vintage stock. 
Some of it is new old stock. 
Some of the parts are actually manufactured new (this surprised me the most) - parts that sell well and they still have the prints for. 
And sometimes when a NOS item is depleted, they still make this determination: was this a part that sold well, do we have the prints, cost evaluation of having this part manufactured, etc. 
No catalogue or customer-accessible inventory, of course.
Oh and, in response to a comment I made, he acknowledged they are very much aware of the price-inflated eBay market, and giving customers a fair-price alternative is exactly what they strive to do.
fyi I've done a good amount of paraphrasing.​​Very interesting!​


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## kcoffield (Nov 30, 2020)

That's great RMc, and great support by Clausing. Let us know what version of the pulley they shipped you....I'm guessing contemporary style 3-hole, 560-060.

Best,
Kelly


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## wa5cab (Nov 30, 2020)

If Clausing still have the older 4 curved-spoke drawing, it is probably marked as Obsolete and/or/maybe "replaced by" and/or "Use 560-060, which is the pulley that came on my 3996.

Incidentally, the curved spokes is the way that most larger V-belt pulleys were made prior to the 1950's.  So the designer in the early 1930's can hardly be blamed for making it the same way that everyone else did.


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## JPMacG (Dec 1, 2020)

Randy,
When you receive the pulley from Clausing and try it on your lathe, please let us know if it runs true.  
Thanks!
-Jon


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## RandyMcNally (Dec 3, 2020)

There ya go. Shipped in 3 days. Maybe 2 days, I don’t remember if I called early or late Monday. I’ll try to remember to post a follow up after mounting regarding: Does it run true?


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## kcoffield (Dec 3, 2020)

Not a single balancing drill hole? Any on the back? Hmmmm. Wonder if they skipped that step?

Best,
Kelly


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## RandyMcNally (Dec 4, 2020)

@kcoffield Nope, no balancing holes on either side. I hadn’t noticed that until you pointed it out. We’ll see how that works out... <raised eyebrow>


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## RandyMcNally (Dec 8, 2020)

The new 560-060 pulley from Clausing is very well balanced. I’m very happy with it. I’m sure there is some minute imbalance but nothing visually obvious to me. It’s a night & day difference compared to the wobble I had with the OEM pulley before I broke it.

I took some video of it running, but then I ended up with 5 or 6 tangential clips - and I’d have to edit them & over-complicate the whole affair...because that’s kind of my thing. I thought I’d at least post a follow-up.


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## kcoffield (Dec 8, 2020)

RandyMcNally said:


> The new 560-060 pulley from Clausing is very well balanced. I’m very happy with it.



Good to hear. On balance, I've seen a number of pictures of that pulley and some had had balance machining and some were untouched, so must not be needed for some castings.

Best,
Kelly


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## JPMacG (Dec 9, 2020)

Thank you Randy.   I will have to get one from Clausing.


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## Grinderman (Feb 19, 2021)

Does anyone know if this new pulley has the groove machined on the inboard side that accepts the felt washer to keep the grease in?


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## wa5cab (Feb 21, 2021)

Write the seller and ask.  FWIW, that is not a 560-060  It may be a 9-427.  The 9-427 does have the cranked spokes.  The 560-060 does not.  It has a solid plate with four lightening holes connecting the hub to the grooved part.  CORRECTION three holes.


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## Grinderman (Feb 21, 2021)

I was referring to the new pulley that Clausing is selling.I haven't seen a pic of the inboard side that goes up against the bearing race to see if it has the groove to accept the 9-111 felt washer that keeps the grease in.


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## wa5cab (Feb 21, 2021)

FWIW, the pulley shown at the bottom of post #1 is what the factory one has actually looked like since at least the summer of 1980 when my 3996 was assembled.  Despite the parts manual still showing the spoked version.  So I would assume that if you were to order the pulley from Clausing today, that is what you would get.  If you were to order 9-427, I'm not sure what you would get.


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## Grinderman (Feb 21, 2021)

Yes that's the pulley you get from Clausing. I'm just wondering if it has the groove machined into it on the other side of the hub to accept the felt washer/seal. I'm looking for a view of the other side of the pulley, not the one shown.


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## wa5cab (Feb 22, 2021)

I would guess not.  Although I don;t think that it would hurt anything on any of the lathes that don't have a seal there..  I'll put that on the list of things to ask Tom next time that I call them.  Unless anyone else wants to do it.


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## Grinderman (Feb 22, 2021)

Ok, thanks. Did the later lathes use a different setup for the countershaft bearings? Mine has the needle bearing/grease cups.


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## Grinderman (Feb 24, 2021)

I contacted Clausing and asked about the seal groove in the pulley they are selling. It does NOT come with that in case anyone else wonders or cares.


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## wa5cab (Feb 24, 2021)

Grinderman,

At least according to the parts lists that we have, there were no changes to the horizontal countershaft assembly from beginning to end.  The only other countershaft that you could buy up until sometime in 1945 was the Vertical Countershaft.  The 10-107X Spindle Assembly is used on both.  

I believe that you mentioned earlier that as received, your countershaft assembly had a felt or similar material washer between the left-hand bearing and the 2-step pulley and the pulley had a groove on the right end of the hub that the felt washer fit into.  If I am not mistaken, that may be a modification made by a previous owner.  According to all of the various vintage parts lists that we have (dated from 1942 through 1966), the 10-107X originally came with four 9-111 fiber washers, one on each side of each of the two straight roller bearings.  And no groove in the right face of the original 9-427 2-step pulley.  I suspect that the PO was just using too much grease.


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## Grinderman (Feb 24, 2021)

I have to disagree. The parts list shows a 9-111 felt washer in between the bearing housing and the pulley as you say. That washer has a quite large inner and outer diameter. The pic shows one of the 3 collars with one of the 4 fiber washers and the pulley. I don't think they would put that large of a washer in between the bearing housing and the pulley as the countershaft is only 3/4" diameter. There would be nothing to hold that washer in place if the pulley had just a flat face. Hope that makes sense. I could see a washer with a 3/4" hole maybe but it calls for 4 of the same 9-111 washer in all locations.


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## wa5cab (Feb 24, 2021)

Well, the same comments would hold for the other three washers and the 3 collars.  Do the collars have a similar groove and are the other three washers felt and with an ID greater than 3/4"?


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## Grinderman (Feb 24, 2021)

All three of the collars are the same as the the one in the pic with the groove and the washers much larger than the shaft diameter. The felt washers OD is the size of the OD of the bearing race and the ID is a little larger than the actual needle bearing cage. The ends of the bearing race looks to be machined to a nice smooth surface for the felt to ride on.  You can see in the pic how much bigger the washer is compared to the shaft size.It's a nice old school system and actually works quite well. It's too bad they didn't make the replacement pulley with the groove to accept the washer
Just to be clear there are only 3 collars and 4 washers as shown in the parts diagram.


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## wa5cab (Feb 25, 2021)

OK.  I will try to get the missing dimensions now that I know how to ask.  And yes, only 3 collars.  The 4th one is replaced by the pulley.


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## Grinderman (Feb 25, 2021)

Here is the pic of the bearing side of the pulley that Clausing sent me.


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## wa5cab (Feb 25, 2021)

OK  I have gotten from Clausing the drawing for the 9-427 Countershaft Pulley.  It has the dimensions on it for the groove for the 9-111 Felt Washer.  It is in Downloads under the Atlas/Craftsman folder and under Drawings, Atlas Lathe.  With that drawing, you can modify one of the late 560-060 pulleys to fit an Atlas 10" or early Craftsman 12" lathe.  Tom said that he didn't know why they did not include the groove on the hub for the washer, especially as if you order a 9-427 they will substitute a 560-060.


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## Grinderman (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks for going through the trouble to get that


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## kcoffield (Feb 26, 2021)

wa5cab said:


> OK I have gotten from Clausing the drawing for the 9-427 Countershaft Pulley.


That's a good print. The dimensions agree with what I measured/reversed engineered from the 9-427 when I cast and machined my made-from-scratch version of the 560-060. The only difference in my version is it is 1.375" overall width instead of 1.25" so as to make machining the v-groove on the included side of the pulley more practical. Those dimensions do vary a bit from the member generated sketch for the 560-060 in the downloads.


wa5cab said:


> Tom said that he didn't know why they did not include the groove on the hub for the washer, especially as if you order a 9-427 they will substitute a 560-060.


It'd be easy enough to machine those grooves into your pulley. Just mount it on a 5/8 shaft in your 3-jaw and have at it. I don't think the felt washer does much other than maybe some modest oil retention. The 3996 cabinet models actually have a thin shim/washer on the countershaft that isolates the groove/felt washer from the opposing bearing face and the 4-step pulley on the other side has no felt washer groove. There is an oiling cup on the central shaft housing that gets oil to all surfaces. Mine hasn't slung any oil. Just don't over oil and it will be fine without.

-My 2 cents.

Best,
Kelly


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## wa5cab (Feb 26, 2021)

Also, remember that in the original configuration for the 9",  10" and early 12", the countershaft pulley with the face groove for the felt washer used straight roller bearings and grease for the bearings, not bronze bushings and oil.  And the three collars that position the roller bearings have the same groove for the 9-111 felt washers.


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## Grinderman (Feb 26, 2021)

Now I just have to grind a .187 trepanning tool. I ordered 4 new felts from an eBay seller (F7 felt) for $7.36 shipped. Clausing wanted $4.65 for 1 and who knows how old they are.


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## wa5cab (Feb 27, 2021)

One thing that we should all keep in mind is that we all have a vested interest in keeping Clausing interested in continuing to stock at least some parts for our machines.  However, felt happens to age well.


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## Grinderman (Feb 27, 2021)

I think it's amazing that Clausing actually has any parts for these machines as old as they are, but like anything else I buy, I look for the best bang for the buck.


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## kcoffield (Feb 27, 2021)

The plot thickens. While perusing my usual eBay searches, I came across this 560-060.......with the felt washer gland.

Atlas Craftsman 560-060 12" Metal Lathe 2 Step Counter Shaft Pulley 3/4" | eBay




Best,
Kelly


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## yendor (Feb 27, 2021)

Make your tool .175 and take a 2nd pass to get to the right dimension.

As a side note there is aftermarket supplier for Atlas Lathe Parts that makes a Oilite Type Sintered Brass replacement for the Counter-shaft Needle Bearings holders and all.
I was going to make this up myself but decided it was easier and faster to just buy a set. they work great.
See Link Below:








						NEW ATLAS 10 INCH LATHE COUNTERSHAFT PULLEY ASSEMBLY CONVERSION KIT USA MADE
					

MyMachineShop.Net offers machinist tools and tooling with a specialty in Atlas Craftsman Lathes ans Milling Machines. Starrett, Mitutoyo and other fine tools. Atlas lathe parts and Accessories especially for the Home Shop Machinist and industry. Many parts not listed from my large inventory...



					www.mymachineshop.net


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## wa5cab (Feb 27, 2021)

Grinderman said:


> I think it's amazing that Clausing actually has any parts for these machines as old as they are, but like anything else I buy, I look for the best bang for the buck.


The pulley was sold as Used.  So the owner must have added the groove.  Note that the seller incorrectly answered the Modified? question.  As it's already sold, it's not worth correcting but it might have sold sooner had he pointed out the modification.


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## wa5cab (Feb 27, 2021)

One other comment that I have been meaning to make is that the bearings used in the 10" and early 12" countershaft are actually called straight roller bearings.  Needle bearings have much smaller diameter rollers.


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