# Tormach SuperFly Cutter



## Alan H. (Jan 20, 2018)

I have a PM935 mill and have been thinking of buying a Tormach Superfly.  I would use it in a 3/4" R8 collet or an ER40 adapter.  BTW, the inserts are ridiculously priced from Tormach or LMS, so I'd buy them on ebay.  




I searched here and found a couple of older threads where there was some disappointment voiced regarding the finish from the tool.   

So I am putting up a thread here for some updated feedback.   

Anyone using one of these in a knee mill and if so, what's your opinion?
For those that may have been disappointed in the past with the finish, have you discovered any magic to make it more acceptable?


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## Dan_S (Jan 20, 2018)

I don't own one,  but from what i have seen, it look likes it works perfectly fine to me.


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## davidpbest (Jan 20, 2018)

Alan, you are welcome to borrow mine if you’d like.  I was not happy with the surface finish but you may have different results.  Personally, I’d rather have a 3” shell mill, and do.


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## Alan H. (Jan 20, 2018)

Thanks David, what shell mill do you have?  I have been looking at integral shank Glacern face mills.


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## davidpbest (Jan 20, 2018)

Alan, I bought two different ones on eBay about 15 years ago, so they are not current production.   That said, I have this 3" diameter Kennametal unit with very pointy inserts (now only available periodically on eBay) that I use exclusively for Aluminum.
	

		
			
		

		
	




And this 4" Sandvik that I use exclusively for Steel and SS":




My complaint about the SuperFly is that it's difficult to dial in the feeds/speeds such that the cutting tool doesn't develop a harmonic and translate that into the finish quality.   I do not have that kind of problem with either of the shell/face mills shown above - they are both pretty tolerant of wide varions of speeds/feeds since they are so massive and robust and don't develop harmonics easily.  

If you were running a CNC mill, where you had the formula down and part of the tool library parameters for the SuperFly, you can probably get good results from it consistently - I know John Saunders has, and he loves the SuperFly.   I suspect he would think differently about it were he to take it to his Bridgeport.   Also, the tool holder that's in the SuperFly is pretty small section (I'm guessing  8x8mm) and that has to contribute to the temperamental nature of the harmonics it develops at the wrong feeds/speeds.   

My offer stands if you want to try it, I can post it to you including the cutter and a TSS adapter for R8 if you want to give it a try.   If you like it, I'll make you a super deal on the package.  

Hope this helps.


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## mikey (Jan 20, 2018)

Alan H said:


> For those that may have been disappointed in the past with the finish, have you discovered any magic to make it more acceptable?



Alan, the Superfly is actually a good flycutter. I've used it enough now that I think I've sorted it out, sort of.

The issue with the finish, in my opinion, is that the insert contacts the material with a broad contact point. The nose radius is flat and quite broad. This large contact area produces a large radial cutting force that pushes the cutter away from the surface. As a result, the tool flexes/vibrates and produces a less than ideal surface. Don't get me wrong; it is flat and it does reflect but if you look carefully you will see tiny ridges in the work that may not be palpable but are visible. 

As we know, one way to reduce cutting forces in general is to increase cutting speed and this actually does help reduce the ridge effect significantly but it doesn't eliminate it. If radial forces are the culprit then taking bigger depths of cut should help and it does; going at least 0.0100" deep allows the tool to cut much better and you get less vibration. Going deeper takes off more stock but it doesn't change the finish, at least in my shop. 

The other force that is present but not controllable without some kind of balance beam are centripetal forces, just like with a boring head. This complicates things because while increasing cutting speed reduces cutting forces, it also increases centripetal force. Since we know that increasing the radius of the cutter actually reduces centripetal force, I tried using the cutter at max extension and this does seem to help the surface finish.

So, max extension, higher cutting speed (optimal for me is about 2400 rpm in aluminum) and at least a 0.0100" depth of cut seems to produce a decent finish. I also found A-9 cutting fluid to work better than WD-40 with aluminum but that is already an almost universal experience. The resulting finish is quite acceptable and dead flat. It is possible to beat the finish with a single-insert face mill (much more rigid and you can choose a larger nose radius). I haven't used a HSS tool in a fly cutter in a long time but as I recall, this will also give a better finish but you will not be hogging material like the Superfly can. That thing is a beast and will throw chips across the shop!

Overall, I think it is a good tool but it is not a finishing tool. It will make stuff flat and produce a smooth surface but machining marks will show. Are these marks objectionable? Dunno' - how long is a piece of string? That NYCNC guy seems to love his Superfly and my tool leaves fewer marks than his does so eye of the beholder, right?

You also might want to look at the B-52 flycutter and the Suburban Tools flycutter. Both designs minimize centripetal forces ... at a cost.


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## Alan H. (Jan 20, 2018)

Thanks David for the detailed response and the kind offer.   Your point on harmonics is very interesting and is consistent with some finish issues I read about elsewhere.

Thanks Mikey for your detailed and thoughtful response.   A lot to digest and it seems to support David's observations.   I have seen the B52 but the downside of it is the cost premium it carries. 

So my big take away is that neither of you see the Superfly as a finishing tool.  It was my fear of that deficit you point out that caused me to start this thread in the first place.  I have an old school fly cutter that uses a HSS cutter and I use it.   So I may be better served looking into the face/shell mill approach before I put any money into another fly cutter. 

Thanks again gents for taking the time for such detailed responses.


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## Dan_S (Jan 20, 2018)

Alan H said:


> So I may be better served looking into the face/shell mill approach before I put any money into another fly cutter.



If you want a finishing tool, pick up a left handed turning tool like this to use in your fly cutter. I've used this set-up many times, and it always leaves a good finish.

http://www.shars.com/3-8-lh-sclc-small-screw-lock-positive-insert-tool-holder


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## mikey (Jan 21, 2018)

Alan H said:


> So my big take away is that neither of you see the Superfly as a finishing tool.  It was my fear of that deficit you point out that caused me to start this thread in the first place.  I have an old school fly cutter that uses a HSS cutter and I use it.   So I may be better served looking into the face/shell mill approach before I put any money into another fly cutter.



I think your expectations need to be realistic. No cutting tool I know of will produce a finish that I would call a "fine" finish. You need a surface grinder for that or you need to put some time in with some finishing material like sandpaper, buffing compound, etc. A fly cutter, end mill, face mill, shell mill will all leave machining marks; they may be very fine and hard to see but they are there, so if you want a super-nice finish then a cutting tool ain't gonna' do it. 

The advantages of the Superfly are that it cuts a 3" wide swath and is simple to use. As fly cutters go, it ain't bad, Alan. I think those circular cutters with one or two inserts will work better, as will a face mill with a single cutter, so it is a matter of practicality and cost. The Superfly is relatively cheap and does the job.

I will match David. If you want to try mine, I'll box it up with a few inserts and the TTS collet and you can try it and decide if it meets your needs.


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## Alan H. (Jan 21, 2018)

Thanks Mikey, I couldn't agree with you more that I need a surface grinder and I do study them from time to time!   

But back to Superfly - does one need the TTS collet?   Tormach says their TTS collet is a "_R8 collet with modified length allows for mounting all TTS tool holders in R8 taper spindles_".  My assumption that a 3/4" R8 collet would work well may be false.   By the way, my assumption was driven by Little Machine Shop's claim that a 3/4" collet will work but I am now wondering if that is optimum??  Does the flat face on the TTS collet allow the Superfly to butt up to the collet face and assure the maximum insertion of the shank?

Thanks for the kind offer to loan me your Superfly.   I only borrow tools from people I don't like!  Seriously, I do not ever borrow tools if I can avoid it but your and David's offer are very generous.


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## higgite (Jan 21, 2018)

Hi Alan,

I’m a little late to the party, but here’s my 2 cents worth.The Superfly will work just fine in a standard 3/4” collet. The TTS collet is designed to let a TTS toolholder butt up to the bottom of the spindle for consistent tool settings. Unless you need that feature and will dedicate a separate TTS toolholder to each tool, you don’t need the TTS collet.

I don’t have a lot of experience with my Superfly and what little I have has all been with aluminum. I find that it leaves sort of a hazy mirror finish. Sort of like a mirror a little out of focus. Pretty much like the video that DanS posted above. The deepest cut that I’ve taken with it so far is .035” and my LMS 5500 wasn’t even breathing hard. I couldn’t tell any difference in finish between that cut and a .005” DOC. Believe the hype about it being a prolific chip generator. It can remove a lot of material in a hurry and deposit the shrapnel in the far reaches of the county.

Tom


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## ddickey (Jan 21, 2018)

If you pause that video at the end and look at the surface finish you can see the waves that I've spoken of in the past. Plus his head is not in tram.
I think Mikey may be on to something with increase DOC.


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## mikey (Jan 21, 2018)

Alan H said:


> But back to Superfly - does one need the TTS collet?   Tormach says their TTS collet is a "_R8 collet with modified length allows for mounting all TTS tool holders in R8 taper spindles_".  My assumption that a 3/4" R8 collet would work well may be false.   By the way, my assumption was driven by Little Machine Shop's claim that a 3/4" collet will work but I am now wondering if that is optimum??  Does the flat face on the TTS collet allow the Superfly to butt up to the collet face and assure the maximum insertion of the shank?
> 
> Thanks for the kind offer to loan me your Superfly.   I only borrow tools from people I don't like!  Seriously, I do not ever borrow tools if I can avoid it but your and David's offer are very generous.



Tom is right; the tool will work in a standard R8 collet. However, if Tormach is to be believed, the TTS collet allows the collet to grab the shank of the tool and pull it up so that the base of the tool is also pulled up into contact with the nose of the spindle, thereby increasing rigidity of the tool holder. The concept, if true, results in a more rigidly held tool. 

I'm the same way and don't borrow tools so I understand. However, if you change your mind the offer stands.


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## Alan H. (Jan 21, 2018)

Mike, makes sense - Thanks


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## mikey (Jan 21, 2018)

I should mention that the TTS collet is just a regular collet with the domed nose of the collet milled flat. The magic juju isn't in the collet; its in the shape of the base of each tool that goes into the collet. There is a recess machined into the base of the tool holder that allows the nose of the collet to fit inside the recess, while the rim of the tool base contacts the spindle nose. This arrangement prevents the tool from rocking or moving in use. It also transfers the accuracy of the spindle to the tool, which is why I chose to buy one of their ER-32 chucks. 

I own a ETM ER-40 chuck and that Tormach TTS ER-32 chuck is just as accurate when used with a good collet and nut. Thing is, the Tormach chuck cost less than $40.00!

It takes just a few seconds to loosen the drawbar, drop the tool holder out and swap in a new one and that tool will be indexed to the spindle nose just like any other TTS tool. Pretty simple method that increases rigidity, accuracy and speed. The only downside to the TTS system is that you're pretty much committed to Chinese tooling unless you make your own. Fortunately, their tools are pretty good.


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## Doubleeboy (Jan 21, 2018)

I get mirror finish with Superfly held in R8 3/4" collet, I made my own flycutter to hold the Superfly bar, nothing special just a plain old holder out of 1020 steel.  I use china sourced Korloy inserts for aluminum or steel,  its not a multi insert behemoth but in a Bridgeport clone I get good results, in steel I run 2 IPM, aluminum 10 IPM, small depth of cut and what ever RPM is handy.  I tend to lean towards too little speed but big enough chips that I do not get smearing.  I think the superfly is a great tool, albeit a bit spendy for what it is.  Those Korloy inserts rock and are dirt cheap on epay or china.  .  I have been a seat of the pants guy about speeds and feeds for years, it was very easy for me to get good results quickly with the Superfly. 

 When I try and dial in a new tool I try and force myself to just change one variable at a time.  With flycutters I find the feed is most critical to keep the tool in the cut and not bounce in and out from various forces, kind of like parting on lathe, you need to keep the cutter moving with steady pressure.  I kick the head out of square about a thou when flycutting so I don't drag chips around and scratch surface, I like the front of cutter to cut deeper than the backside, giving some clearance, and I like to blow air from behind to make sure it works as planned.


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## Alan H. (Jan 21, 2018)

Double, do you use the same Korloy insert for aluminum and steel or do you have the ground and molded inserts respectively?

EDIT: I reread your post and I believe you use both.   BTW, I wonder if Korloy manufactures in China.  I believe they are a Korean company but I have wondered about all the Chinese sources for their inserts.


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## EmilioG (Feb 13, 2018)

Why is it so difficult to source Korloy inserts in the USA?
Are these Ebay sellers legit? Is there a known, good seller on Ebay for the Korloy inserts, SEHT for TTS Superfly cutter.
3. Can the carbide SEHT inserts for steel be used on hard steels like O1? ( annealed).


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## mikey (Feb 13, 2018)

EmilioG said:


> Why is it so difficult to source Korloy inserts in the USA?
> Are these Ebay sellers legit? Is there a known, good seller on Ebay for the Korloy inserts, SEHT for TTS Superfly cutter.
> 3. Can the carbide SEHT inserts for steel be used on hard steels like O1? ( annealed).



Can't tell you if the ebay sellers are legit, although I wondered at the same thing. I have Korloy inserts from an ebay seller and it seems to work fine for me on my Superfly. You can buy US made inserts from Carbide Depot (Kennametal) but the cost difference is huge. 

I haven't fly cut O-1 yet - sorry, don't know for sure but I suspect it will work fine.


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## Alan H. (Feb 14, 2018)

Here are some side by sides of some ebay bought Korloys compared to the two that came with the Superfly kit from Tormach.     They appear legit but who knows?  

SEHT's - The insert on the top was the one that came with the Tormach kit and has been used.  The color of the coatings are different.  However the Tormach website photo matches the ebay ones. 






Here's a snippet of the insert from on the Tormach website.  Notice the color is the same as the box obtained via ebay.  Maybe the kit was supplied with the Kennametal alternative??   




Here's the ebay supplied Korloy for Alum and non-ferous.  Tormach supplied insert is on left and ebay's on the right.  They Look the same.




The inserts have the same little dot (right hand bottom of hole).  BTW, there are shadows in this photo that make them appear different but they look to be identical.  I just noticed the post office put a chip in the Tormach supplied insert (it's unused).




Thus far I have not used these but by appearance they look to be legit but who knows?   The packages say they are made in Korea.  I generally have a very deep mistrust of unknown Chinese suppliers but I gave this a shot.   The packaging looks legit but I have seen copied packaging from China that was excellent.   Guess I will have to do a side by side when the time comes but in the interim I think they are likely okay.


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## Splat (Mar 26, 2019)

I've been looking at the Superfly lately. I just spoke with a tech at Tormach. I asked him about this but he didn't know...or didn't want to say.  I'm wondering if I could use their tool holder (part that holds the insert)  in my fly cutter bodies. Anyone know... is the angle for the tool bar in the tool body the same as the standard flycutters we see like this? Or, to put it another way... has anyone tried using the Tormach tool holder in their regular fly cutter body?


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## ddickey (Mar 26, 2019)

I think it's 19 degrees??
I'll have to check when I get home.


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## Splat (Mar 26, 2019)

Thanks ddickey! I'm at work so I'll have to check my fly cutters later, too. I wonder if it's the angle the insert is presented at, along with the insert's facial geometry, that makes the Superfly cut supposedly so well.


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## ddickey (Mar 26, 2019)

I made the body myself specifically for the tool bar.
it is as I remember 19° although I've seen some say 20° angle. 
I think Mikey has the Tormach body as well and he measured 19° angle also.


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## mikey (Mar 26, 2019)

I just spent some time trying to measure the angle of the Superfly. It is difficult because the diameter of the body and the TTS collar are slightly different. I tried using a Starrett protractor and got 19 degrees. Then I used a Starrett vernier protractor and got 20 degrees. I think 20 degrees is more likely right. This matters because the insert geometry relies on an accurate angle. If I steered you wrong, Duane, my sincere apologies.


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## Splat (Mar 26, 2019)

Thanks guys. I'll measure my cutters tonight. I'm real interested to see if I can use the Tormach tool bar in my cutter bodies. To use the Tormach body I'd have to get a 3/4" end mill holder for my MT2 spindle and don't know how my machine would like that. It's pushing its limits.


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## mikey (Mar 26, 2019)

The Superfly cuts with very little cutting force generation. If you have at least 1HP, you should do fine with it.


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## Cobra (Mar 26, 2019)

EmilioG said:


> Why is it so difficult to source Korloy inserts in the USA?
> Are these Ebay sellers legit? Is there a known, good seller on Ebay for the Korloy inserts, SEHT for TTS Superfly cutter.
> 3. Can the carbide SEHT inserts for steel be used on hard steels like O1? ( annealed).



KBC sells the Korloy inserts


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