# Craftsman/Atlas 6", what have I gotten my self into?



## kopeck

Good morning,

First off I'm 100% new to machine tools.  I play with old farm machinery and often run into NLA parts.  I've wanted a lathe for a quite some time and had been keeping an eye open.  I've also watched a pile of YouTube videos though the years, Mr. Pete and Keith Rucker have kept me occupied for hours.

Anyway, I picked up a Craftsman 101.07301.  It's pretty complete, came with a new motor and drum switch.  A 3 jaw Delta chuck and a 4 jaw chuck with no name that seems to be well loved.  The gears are in great shape, the spindle has a little play but I'll replace the bushing/bearings.  The carriage and compound are in really good shape, no nicks or anything, it does have a broken handle on the cross feed but from what I see that's a really common problem.  It also came with a pile of tooling, some of it brand new/never ground and a bench that needs a new top (question about that later).

It's smaller then what I had planned on but the price was right and it was just a few minutes down the road.  To me this is a learning tool more then anything, I need to start somewhere and this guy seems like it should fill the roll.

So now the questions:

It was really dirty when I picked it up.  I get the impression that who ever had it before me just didn't want to clean it up and that's why it was sold.  Not to rusty, just grime and grit.

I've cleaned up the ways pretty well, I soaked them in WD-40, and used a green scotch bright pad to work the grime off then I wiped everything down with lacquer thinner and reoiled.  The carriage runs really smooth the first half of the bed but as you get to the tail stock is stiffens up.  I know this is a sign of wear.  I took my mics and went all over the darn thing.  I'm finding almost no wear in the width of the ways but I do see a little less then a half a thousands wear in the height.  I guess that's enough feel in that little hand wheel.  The ways are also kind of beat up, quite a few nicks and such although they don't seem to catch the carriage.  How much is this bed going to drive me crazy in the long run?

The bench it's on is decent other then the top.  The PO made it out of bunch of 2x6s and they're all cupped and anything but flat.  I have some 3/4 finish plywood at home.  If I doubled that up would that make an adequate top?

Anything else I should be looking for?  Like I said this will get me started.  Sure is a cute little machine, if machines can be cute.


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## Bob Korves

Welcome to Hobby Machinist!  That lathe will give you lots of parts for projects, learning, and great fun.  You seem to be on the correct path.  All used lathes have wear, but that does not prohibit them from making excellent parts.  Please follow all the safety rules and don't attempt things too extreme for the lathe and your skill level.  Machining does not go nearly as well when the machine or the machinist is out of action...


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## markba633csi

Hi Kopeck, there are shims under the carriage that can be added/removed to adjust but due to the bed wear you may not be able to achieve travel
all the way to the tailstock end without making it too loose at the chuck end.  
That's a good little lathe, you'll have fun.
Mark S.


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## westsailpat

Hi kopeck , if you double up the 3/4 that should be fine . That's what I did , screwed and bonded together and finished the edges with oak .  I'm seeing on your lathe that the rear riser has two bolt holes , I guess I'm missing something as the way I understand it the 101.07301  6"  has only one mount hole at the rear .
http://www.lathes.co.uk/craftsman6inchmk1/
Goodies .  http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas-6-inch-lathe-accessories/
By the way us Craftsman/Atlas people have a spot we like to hang out on .
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/atlas-craftsman-aa.86/


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## kopeck

Hey Westsailpat, 

Are you talking about the legs on the tail stock side?  I think you are and you have great eyes to pick that out, I've been looking at these things every evening since I got it and never picked up on that.  It is a 101.07301:




The other interesting thing is the counter shaft frame is also different then almost every other unit I've seen in pictures.  The ones I see are all kind of curved so the motor can sit underneath, this one is straight.  The PN on the main frame is L9-20A which is a legit Atlas part but doesn't (from my research) seem to be common.

Thanks for the heads up on the Atlas section, I'm wondering if I should move this over there?

Bob & Mark S.,

Thanks for the info.  I did see a shim in the front side of the carriage but none in the back.  I think I'll just get it going as is and see how it goes.  If I find it's out too much I guess I could always look for another bed OR upgrade.   I'm getting WAY ahead of my self...

K


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## westsailpat

Hey KO ,  the 101 . 07301 is a early model Atlas (40'-56') and is referred to correctly as a 6" as I have to come to find out from this knowledgeable group of people . The newer version is called the 618  .  Some of  the model changes are the 6" has the tailstock riser with a center located mount hole , the newer 618 has it's (2) mount holes on the side . And that is what is confusing to me .  Another difference is the headstock bearings we ,6" owners have bushings where the 618 has Timken bearings . Some say a bushing headstock will give you a better finish . For the spindle (chuck) mount , the 6" has a TPI of 8 and the 618 has a TPI of 10 . There are some other differences but I forget at the moment . The counter shaft is the original , the curved ones came later .  
I wouldn't go to the trouble of moving your post , it's all good . But for the future ... Keep us posted , always good to have  a new friend .


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## kopeck

Just to be clear, this is what your talking about right?




When you say tail stock riser I'm thinking of the tail stock it's self.  I don't see any extra bolts there.  Maybe I'm just blind. 

K


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## DaveInMi

The "drag" closer to the tailstock may well be from wear.  Do check the rack for dirt or grit on that end as that could offer some resistance too.


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## kopeck

I'm sure it's mostly wear.  Working and cleaning has made things more useable.

I'm hoping to pull the carriage this weekend.  I have no doubt it could use a cleaning as well!

K


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## T Bredehoft

Just a couple of suggestions, you've probably already done these, 
1)  turn the chuck jaws around, they're set now for holding on the OD of a larger 3" to 5" part. 
2) turn the compound so the handle is on the right, at about 30º instead of 45. We all keep it that way, so if the  need comes to cut threads, were already set. 
3) you will need a tool holder to hold the cutting tool. It appears that  you have a High Speed bit clamped on the rocker, an Armstrong tool holder is needed there. Eventually you will find a better way to hold tools, but for now this will work.


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## kopeck

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the input.

1) It's a 3 Jaw chuck and the jaws are not reversible and of course it's missing the other set of jaws.  It's a Delta #957, eBay turned up another chuck but no jaws.  I know running it this way would be asking for trouble.  I might start out with the 4 jaw since I can set the jaws the right way on that sucker.  I'll just have to get used to setting work up.  I've got plenty of dial indicators and bases from engine building...

2) Yep, planned on that as well.  I just keep forgetting to bring my allen wrenches in from the garage.  I've been in the cleaning mode more then anything.  The way it's setup now seems really awkward.

3) That's the way I bought it.  The only tool holder that came with it is way to big for the lathe.  I'm sort of debating finding a few of the holders like you suggest or just going for broke and getting the quick change type from the Little Machine Shop.  Their kit would get me a lot of things I'm missing plus I could start cutting it properly made tools, not something I tried grinding my self.

We have a used tool place in town that has a lot of this random stuff, I think I need to go dig around and see what I can turn up.

K


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## kopeck

Did some more cleaning over the weekend.  My ways are really beat up.  There's wear too but like you guys said that's to be expected.  Most of it seems to be on the edges, if I back the gib screws off just a hair it will run from one side to the other just fine.  Of course that leaves a bit of slop down by the head stock so I guess it's finding a compromise.

The good news is my uncle is going to take a look at it when he's in town this week.  He's a retired from Pratt & Whitney, spent his years there doing machine setup and repair.  Scraping used to be one of his specialties.  No idea on how much he can help me but I suspect he's going to be be able to evaluate the old girl a lot better then I will be able to!

One thing I did find is the counter shaft my machine is toast.  A new one is pretty expensive, is there any reason I can't just get a piece of 1/2" rotary shaft from McMaster and have a friend with a mill machine it for me?  That shaft isn't anything exotic it?  I can't imagine it would be.






K


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## Dave Paine

I would first remove the cone pulleys from the countershaft.  You can then measure the dimensions for a replacement shaft.  It may not be all the same diameter.

I like to use O1 drill rod.  Good dimensional consistency and can be hardened if needed.


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## kopeck

I've done that already.  The cone pulley was spinning on the shaft, someone didn't tighten down the set screws and it chewed the heck out of the shaft.

It it's Mics to 1/2".

Drill rod would be a good option too.

K


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## Dave Paine

Another option is to get someone to weld up the existing shaft.  I had to do this with a shaft I messed up in the gearbox of my tractor mower.  No longer parts available.  I had friend fill in the hole with MIG weld, then turned it down to dimension.


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## kopeck

I had looked into this once on similar kind of shaft.  By the time they welded, machined and straitened the darn thing I could buy a new one for less.

I think I'm going to try some O1 drill rod, that should be the most uniform.  I'll just keep an eye on it.

Question for the Atlas folks.  The spindle bearings/bushings I pulled out had holes in them where the oil cups are located, the new ones do not.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that they're not suppose to have holes, the oil just finds it's way though the porous bushing?  Is that right?

K


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## DaveInMi

kopeck said:


> I had looked into this once on similar kind of shaft.  By the time they welded, machined and straitened the darn thing I could buy a new one for less.
> 
> I think I'm going to try some O1 drill rod, that should be the most uniform.  I'll just keep an eye on it.
> 
> Question for the Atlas folks.  The spindle bearings/bushings I pulled out had holes in them where the oil cups are located, the new ones do not.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that they're not suppose to have holes, the oil just finds it's way though the porous bushing?  Is that right?
> 
> K


Seems to me a hole would be better.  Unless I'm missing something, it should be pretty easy to do.


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## westsailpat

I need to get new bushings too ( I'm lazy but hey the old ones aren't that bad )) and I plan to drill the oil hole and split on one side for adjustment . Back to post #7 , yes the part you circled is what I'm talking about . On mine , possibly a early 6" there is just the one hole at the end in the center . Maybe yours is a later one ?


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## Bob Korves

kopeck said:


> Question for the Atlas folks. The spindle bearings/bushings I pulled out had holes in them where the oil cups are located, the new ones do not. I seem to remember reading somewhere that they're not suppose to have holes, the oil just finds it's way though the porous bushing? Is that right?


A hole in the bushing will give you immediate oil to the shaft/bushing interface, and the excess will then exit the area unless there are seals in place to retain the oil.  The idea of the blind hole to the back side of an Oilite bushing is that the oil will gradually enter the bushing and work its way to the shaft/bushing interface to do its job, and the excess oil will more or less remain above the bushing, gradually replenishing the oil as it exits the area.  To work that way, you need an Oilite or other bushing in place that will retain oil in its pores.  If the entrance hole to bushing interface gets plugged up with crud or dried oil, it will stop replenishing the bushing.  Ideally the bushing would have an annular groove in the housing around the middle of the bushing length for access of oil to bushing.
https://www.oilite.com/


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## kopeck

For what it's worth they're pretty darn easy to get out.  The hardest part is getting the key out, it doesn't look like it can come out but it will.  I just found where I read that the bearing shouldn't have a hole, it's right in the Craftsman manual.  Bob pretty much sums is up what I read about these type bushings.  I'm going to go without the hole and just keep an eye on things.  I found my shaft has some wear, around .0015 (guessing, between .001 and .002) on both ends.  I was worried but the one I found on eBay looks no better.  I suspect they're all worn, nature of the beast, I kind of wish it was a Timken bearing unit but it is what it is.  This is a learning tool for me, I'm not trying to make a living with it.  I do want it make it the best it can be with out breaking the bank, which looks like it would be easy to do.  eBay is dangerous. 

As far as the holes in the foot I have no idea!  I think mine is an early one, it has the early style counter shaft setup.  I'm no expert, I just google things in my spare time. 

K


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## Ulma Doctor

Hi kopeck,
you don't have to be an expert to enjoy machines and machining!
it's a swift descent into the rabbit hole my new friend, - come down with the rest of us !!!


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## Z2V

Hi kopeck

Like you I'm new to machines and also have a 07301. The bushings on mine were shot when I got it so they got replaced first off. The old bushings I removed had no holes in them and the new bushings were installed without modifications. I have found that I add about two drops of oil in each oil cup per hour of run time. On the tail riser, mine has only one mounting bolt.
It's taken me some time but I'm finally able to get some pretty smooth cuts with it. I turned some right hand threads this week and will try some left hand next. Then on to boring and internal threads. 
You mentioned a QCTP, I bought the OXA from Little Machinshop, seems to work great, best tool money spent to this point.
I hope you enjoy your new lathe as much as I am mine!!

Jeff


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## kopeck

Thanks for the words of encouragement guys.  I've got the old girl broke down to the point where only the head stock casting and bed/legs remain.  All the gears have been cleaned (the PO completely covered everything in heavy grease, almost like wheel bearing grease).  I'm going to hit the bed castings with the pressure washer and start putting it back together.  I just need to wait for the new belt to get here....

I've also got the new top for the stand glued up.

Progress....

Z2V, did you get the kit from Little Machine shop or just the tool post?

K


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## Z2V

kopeck
On the tool post, I got the the tool post with five tool holders and added three additional holders for turning tools. Money well spent in my opinion.
I used a link belt on mine. I honestly can't say one is better than the other but I don't have to remove the spindle to change the belt, not that I will wear the belt out in my lifetime, but I did shorten it two links.
Keep posting pics !!


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## kopeck

Howdy,

I started a thread in the machine repair section that can be seen here:

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/craftsman-atlas-6-what-have-i-gotten-my-self-into.61670/

But I thought I would move over to this section since I find my self reading/digging here.

Just a quick update.  The lathe is more or less back together.  I need to take a picture of it cleaned up and sitting on it's reworked bench.  I'm pretty happy so far.  I've had to scrounge up a few parts on eBay and of course there's plenty of other stuff on there that I would love to buy but I need to see chips before I invest any more. 

I did get a new counter shaft made up from O1 drill rod.  For what ti's worth the original was surprisingly soft so I suspect me new one will work just fine.

One question though.  My machine came with a drum switch.  Since this is a threaded spindle/chuck is this a good idea?  I need to redo the wiring, it's my next project and was wonder which way I should go.  The drum switch looks to be pretty new as is the motor.

Thanks,

K


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## RandyM

I know you didn't specifically request this, but I thought it best. I moved your original thread to this section from the Resto one and I merged your one post of your new thread in to this one. This will keep everything better organized. Hope you don't mind.


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## kopeck

Not at all, it really makes the most sense anyway.  The thread was going to bounce between restoration/repair and use soon enough, just seemed to make more sense for it to live here.

Thanks!

K


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## wa5cab

Thanks, Randy.  I had the same thought this morning when I read the email of his post but didn't have time then to do anything.

To address your drum switch question, yes, with a threaded spindle nose, you don't want to try to turn (including thread) anything held in a screw-on chuck or face plate.  But as you have the switch and motor, you may as well go ahead and use it.  Just don't try to run in reverse except under the following circumstances.  Collets held in the spindle are safe (that does not include collets held in a screw-on collet chuck like some ER chucks).  And if you ever need to do any OD grinding, with most grinders you will need to run the spindle in reverse so that the work piece surface is not running in the same direction as the grinding wheel surface.


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## kopeck

That's true, I don't have a draw bar but that doesn't mean I won't get one someday and I do have the switch already.  I need to rewire, it works now but the insulation is giving up the ghost.  I think it might be 10ga too, if not it has super heavy insulation on it.

It's getting close:







I have some maple to edge the plywood with.  

K


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## wa5cab

K,

I don't recall whether or not up above you ever said what HP the motor is.  But it would need to be #10 only if the run is quite long or if the motor is 3/4 HP or larger (which it should not be).  And if the motor is running off of 110/120 VAC.  For 1/2 HP & 120 VAC, #12 is adequate.  For 1/2 HP & 240 VAC, #14 AWG is adequate.  However, using larger than needed wire won't hurt anything (except maybe your wallet).


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## kopeck

It's a 1/3 HP GE continues run motor.  My electricians hand book says 14Ga is required.

The issue with the wire that's in there is it's so heavy there's pretty much zero room to work.  The wire also predates the motor and switch which are both relatively new.

I'm going to swap it over to some greenfield run my own wire.  The way the PO wired it the green wire is hot. 

K


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## wa5cab

OK.  That sounds like a good idea.


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## kopeck

Anyone ever had issues getting consisstant pressure across the cone pulleys?

Setting the belt all the way to the left (high speed) the belt is tighter then I like and all the way to the right (low speed) it's to loose.

I know the obvious answer is the counter shaft it not square to the lathe spindle but every way I measure it it should be, or at least the base is.  A straight edge shows the pulleys to be in line.

I did over size my holes a bit to try and get some wiggle, I just can't seem to find it's happy place.

K


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## francist

I've found it's not necessarily the alignment of the countershaft to the spindle, but rather that some of steps on the cone pulleys tend to get used more than others. So the sides of that particular step get worn a bit more than the others resulting in a slightly deeper/loose fit of the belt. Ideally I guess all the steps would see the same wear, but in reality it seems not. 

-frank


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## kopeck

Hi Frank,

I had been wondering if that might be part of the problem.  The three slower speeds are much closer on tension then the last step which is the tightest.  Just dealing with old stuff I guess.

The other problem I'm trying to work though now is rewiring the GE Serv-S-Line Motor.  I wrote down how it was wired BUT I was looking at the diagram on the motor and it doesn't jive with what was going on inside.  To be honest the tag doesn't even make sense to me.  I've wired 120/220 motors before, this one has me baffled.

K


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## kopeck

Never mind, I think I get it. 

It's been "hacked" a little to work with the drum switch.

I'll check it out with my meter later today.

K


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## wa5cab

K,

If the motor didn't come set up to be reversed, a PO could have cut the two wires at the ends of the start circuit and pulled them to the outside world.


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## kopeck

wa5cab said:


> K,
> 
> If the motor didn't come set up to be reversed, a PO could have cut the two wires at the ends of the start circuit and pulled them to the outside world.



That's pretty much what I'm seeing.  They are suppose attached to terminal blocks but they were cut and then wired into the drum switch.  Makes sense now that I've get how the motor works.

I'm getting there...

K


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## kopeck

Getting back to the pulleys...

After a closer inspection on the counter shaft side there's noticeable wear (by eye) on the slowest step compared to the fastest.  The old "stick your finger in there" method of measuring bears this out too.  It looks like it was used more or less in the slow speed setting and occasionally in the next two speeds and almost never in high speed.  The first three settings I can use with out readjusting, the 4th I would have to tweak a bit.  I can live with that, for now anyway.

I was driving my self nuts trying to figure out why the tension was off, some times you need to look at the simple stuff first.  Thanks Frank!

K


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## wa5cab

I hadn't thought of it either but in most cases, the highest speed range gets the least use unless the owner is doing a lot of wood turning or a lot of small aluminum parts.


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## kopeck

It's together!




I made one small pass on a chunk of steel that seems very hard with a right hand tool that looks pretty much worn out.  It cut, not well but it cut. 

A few observations.  My three jaw chuck has some serious wobble in it.  I chucked up a piece of drill rod and the run out was pretty terrible, I didn't even put an indicator on it, it was visually all over the place.  The 4 jaw seems to be OK, although I have to admit getting things chucked in it is a challenge that I'm sure I'll get better at with practice.

Is it common for the bull pin to cone pulley to make a little noise when running with out any load?  I'm going to guess it is.

My forward tumbler gear is really worn out.  I knew this but running them at speed the noise difference between forward and reverse is really noticeable.

I snugged up the bearings and let it run, everything seems pretty tight but still turns freely.  I'm pretty happy over all, I just need to get a tool that cuts (I'll try touching up the one I have) so I can play a little.  I can see this thing becoming a bit of a money pit, there's so many things I want/need to really use it and some smaller things I still want to fix.

Sorry for the mess, I'm moving stuff around to make room for the lathe.

K


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## Bob Korves

kopeck said:


> My forward tumbler gear is really worn out. I knew this but running them at speed the noise difference between forward and reverse is really noticeable.


Swap them and wear the other gear (and maybe actually keep it clean and lubricated)?


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## kopeck

The front gear is 20T the rear is 24T.  Not sure it matters though, I can try it.

They're clean now and freshly lubed with MAC open gear lube.  My god that stuff is messy!

K


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## kopeck

Well...Something's not right.

I made a few tiny cuts and I stalled my motor twice.  Once it stopped with out any load what so ever.  The motor is also running very warm.  I let it run for a couple of minutes with no load it and it was very uncomfortable to put your hand on.  

I suspect something isn't right in the way it's wired.  I rewired it exactly the way it was when I got it.  Here's the thing, this thing doesn't seem to conform to any wiring diagram I can find online and I'm just a tad confused.

Here's my motor:




Every thing I can fine online talks about blue and orange wires, I don't have those.  What it says it to swap the red and black wires to reverse directions.

The way it's wired right now is (Dayton Drum switch):

------

1 -> T1

3 -> Jumpered to 5

5 -> Red wire in motor

***

2 -> L1 & Red wire in motor

4 -> A

6 -> L2


---------------

Just running this through my head and against wiring diagrams I've found on line L1 and L2 are swapped but I'm not sure that matter.  The drum switch is swapping T1 & A, I guess that's what reversing the motor BUT the red and the black wires are staying the same in forward and reverse.

The red and black wires had terminals on them at one time and were plugged in to 5 & A, the terminals were cut off and wired into the switch.

I can't find much on this motor so I'm not 100% sure what black and red are connected to, one of them has to be the start coil.  I think this is a pretty decent motor, I just don't know how to wire the darn thing.

Thanks,

K


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## kopeck

OK, I think I've figured it out.  This is a permanent split capacitor motor which complicates things.  Some posts I've read said it can't be reversed with a drum switch, some say it can but you need to do a bunch of testing to figure it out.  I've also read that the motor isn't really ideal for my application.  It's a high torque start motor but it's not a high torque running motor.

I think I'm going to wire it up like it came from the factory and see how it performs.  I can still use the drum switch as an on/off switch, just not to reverse it.

If push comes to shove I have two classics waiting in the wings.  A 1/4 HP GE and a 1/2 HP Delco.  Both HPs are not ideal but it's better then no HP. ;-)

K


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## kopeck

Wired it back to single direction, works fine now.

The motor runs much cooler and doesn't seem to be missing a beat.  I kind of wonder how the PO used it the way it was wired?  Maybe that's the reason it was for sale...

K


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## wa5cab

About the only thing that you usually need reverse for is for OD grinding (because the grinding wheel is usually going down at point of contact so the work needs to be going up). You do not want to risk doing any turning in reverse while using a screw-on chuck.  But if you do decide later that you do need to reverse it, start a new thread and re-post the motor plate photo and add a photo looking into the junction box and one of the drum switch diagram.


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## kopeck

Yeah, I'm not loosing sleep over missing the the reverse.  I think what you would have to do is break L1 with poles 5 & 6 and run L2 straight though, then feed terminals 5 & A back into the switch and use poles 1-4 to swap them around.  I would need to draw it out to make sure, this is just off the top of my head.

They way it was wired was 5 & A were not swapped but L1 & L2 were being swapped.  That didn't make this motor happy at all.

Right now it's just wired up as an on/off switch.  I'm breaking both L1 & L2 because it's what was easiest with the terminals I had installed.

K


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## markba633csi

Are you sure that is a permanent split cap and not a cap start motor? Do you hear the centrifugal switch clicking when it starts and stops? 
Regardless, it should have plenty of torque and should be able to be wired for reverse.  Let me know if you want to revisit the wiring for that. Post the pinout of the 
drum switch (I've seen several variations) and I can do a sketch. 
Mark S.


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## kopeck

You know everything I've been able to dig up on this motor says it's PSC but it does click on start/stop so that would mean it isn't one correct?  Now this motor hasn't been manufactured in years so I've had to fill in the blanks at times.

I honestly haven't played with electric motors very much but I do "get" electricity and like you I think it can be reversed.  This is how I think you would have to do it:





I apologies for the crude diagram and poor hand writing.  My biggest worry is getting all that wire stuffed though a 3/8 greenfield conduit unless the red and black wires (start windings?) can be a lighter gauge.  I'm pretty sure they're 16 or 18 in the motor.  Just to expand on what I've drawn the black wire goes to terminal A and the red goes to terminal 5, to reverse the motor you just swap the wires.

K


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## wa5cab

L1 and L2 are the Line wires.  The switch connects them to both the run winding and the start circuit, which are in parallel.

Normally, if the run to the switch is relatively short, you should use the same size wire as the wires in the motor.  If the internal wires are #16, then that would be adequate to the switch.  But you would not want to use #18 or #20.


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## kopeck

Yep, don't disagree with anything you said there.  I guess I was thinking out loud, that those two two wires are pretty light but also very short.  I'm not sure if adding 2' would create a need for a heavier wire or not.

What I should do is pop the back of the motor off and see if I can isolate & trace the terminals....

K


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## markba633csi

2' is a trivial amount, don't worry about that.  The clicking means it is a cap start motor after all.
Yes you just swap the red and black with respect to their previous connection points to reverse.  Piece of cake.
Mark S.
ps make L1 the hot line wire and L2 the neutral, then the drum switch opens the hot when off.


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## kopeck

Well...Here's an update.

I got my new QCTP from the Little Machine Shop.  My lathe was missing tool holders and the lantern wasn't for my machine so it was either find used Atlas/Craftsman parts of go for the new stuff.

The good news is the it will make chips and the I really like what comes in the kit from LMS, the bad news is I can't get it cut a decent surface.  I tried a lot of things.  Pretty much every tool in the kit, some HHS that was already ground, speeds, feeds, every combo I could cook up.  I could see the see the piece move a bit when the tool made contact with the steel so I snugged up the bushings a tad more which made things a bit better but I deiced to look the slop a bit more.

Turns out I seem to have quite a bit of play in the spindle.  I put a indicator on the chuck and I'm getting .005" play up and down and .002" side to side.  The up and down play takes very little effort to move, the back and forth I have to push firmly on the chuck.  All that seems like a lot to me, especially measuring at the chuck.  I kind of think this might be at the root of some of my issues, some of it could be the hardware store steel that I've heard doesn't machine well.

I did install new bushings, they're about as tight as I dare make them.  There's a fine line between things turning and not.  The spindle did have some wear, I was hoping it could be adjusted out.

Needless to say I'm pretty bummed.  I may just buy some 12L14 to see how much of it's the steel.  I knew this was an older machine with some wear and I really just want to learn but I was hoping for a bit better results.  Obviously being new also factors in.

Oh and me lead screw had a dead spot in it.  Man when it rains...

K


----------



## wa5cab

I would suggest that you start off practicing with aluminum.  It is for example virtually impossible to get a decent finish on galvanized pipe except by sanding it.

What do you mean by "the lead screw had a dead spot in it"?


----------



## kopeck

Sorry, I wrote that late and not in the best mood.

I'll  get some aluminum and some 12L14, what's the best flavor of aluminum for people who have no clue like me?  From what I've read the stuff I was trying to turn is probably A36 and not a good option.

The thread are worn near the head stock so the carriage just stops.  It's hard to see by eye but they're really worn for about 2".  I think this machine was used to thread a lot in it previous life.  The back gear is worn pretty well and I had to replace a couple of other gears as they were worn pretty badly.  I wouldn't mind replacing the screw with a better one but I want to see if this is a useable machine before I do anything else.

To add insult to injury there a Atlas 10D for sale close by that comes much better equipped then my 6" did and for just a little more then I paid for my 6".  Then again the devil you know vs the devil you don't.

K


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## Bob Korves

Is it possible to reverse the lead screw end for end?  Most work is done close to the chuck.


----------



## wa5cab

Bob,

Practically speaking, no.  The right end of the lead screw is turned down for the right bearing.  That would have to be cut off, the other end turned down, and the right bearing relocated to the left.  

K,

I'm sure that there are others today but the sorta default alloy for parts that were to be machined and were not to be formed (bent) was 6061T6.  It is or was available in both plate and bar.


----------



## wa5cab

kopeck said:


> The threads are worn near the head stock so the carriage just stops.  It's hard to see by eye but they're really worn for about 2".
> K



K,

Then it would appear that your only option is to source a replacement.  And if you haven't already, replace the half-nuts or split nuts.


----------



## kopeck

wa5cab said:


> K,
> 
> Then it would appear that your only option is to source a replacement.  And if you haven't already, replace the half-nuts or split nuts.



Yep.  There's a couple on ebay right now.  I'm a little gun shy on spending more money on the machine at the moment though.  I' worried about the spindle.  Doesn't .006" deflection up and down seem like a lot?  I know some deflection is going to be there simple because we're talking bronze bushing and that has to be some clearance.

L


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## wa5cab

Yes, Six thou up and down is excessive.  I thought that you had written earlier that after replacing the bushings, you could tighten the clamping screw down enough to make the spindle difficult to rotate.


----------



## kopeck

I did.  That's the weird thing, I can tighten them up to the point where there is considerable drag, almost to the point of the spindle not turning at all and there is still a little play.

You would think that the clamping  force being vertical would remove the play there first.  The horizontal play is more or less in my option acceptable, I just can't get the vertical play to go away.  It seems to be all in that front bushing too, I can crank down on the rear one and it has pretty much no effect on the play.

The holes in the head stock looked perfect, brand new bushings, a a little wear in the spindle but wouldn't you think the play would be more uniform?

K


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## kopeck

Just thinking out side the box here.  I wonder if a little shim stock between the housing  and the bushing on the top might help?

I'm at the point where I really don't want to throw good money after bad.  It needs a lead screw too so I have to keep that in mind.

K


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## francist

To my mind I'm thinking your shim stock idea may be a useful thing to try if you can get the bushing out of the cap easily enough. Not necessarily for a permanent solution, but it might give you an idea of what's going on. Or contrarily, what's not going on. 

You might also want to verify that there is enough clearance between the front pair of bushings so that they will indeed draw up snug against the spindle. I don't have a plain-bearing machine, but I'm imagining a situation where the spindle may be worn enough on that front end so that the two bushing halves could close tight together but still fit loosely around the shaft. Just make sure you don't screw up the new bushings in that process though -- that would really tick you off. 

If you haven't done it already, I would also take the chuck off that machine for any further measuring. If the error is in the spindle you should still see it without the chuck being mounted.

-frank


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## kopeck

The bushings are one piece, just simple bronze Oilite style bushing.  There is no cap, the hole for the busing is machined into the head stock and then there's a slot cut in onside that is snugged up to take up the clearance.  More or less you are crushing the bushing.  Here's a decent picture:




I think what might be happening is since the force is pulling on only one side there's kind of a hinge like effect going on.  Pretty much even though the screw is pulling down it's also pulling in which tightens up the play side to side but could also making he bushing go out of round and and create more space on top.

I could be way off here.  I think I need to pull the spindle and inspect further.  I kind of think I know why it was for sale now...

K


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## Z2V

I know you have unwanted play in your spindle but I was just wondering if you had your work supported on the end with tail stock or rest. On mine I had to support anything sticking out of the chuck more that an inch or two if I was going to get any kind of decent finish. With the work supported it did a pretty good job with the tool dead center. I had the small insert set from Anytime Tools, also used HSS that I ground using Mikey' method. Without support there was little hope in a good finish. I know this won't help your spindle issue but it might help otherwise.
Jeff


----------



## francist

Ahh, sorry, I misunderstood the operation of the bushings. Thought they were a two-piece affair with removable cap. I'll assume then that the slit in the bushing is lots wide enough to accommodate some wear in the shaft and still close up snugly. And if that's the case, I remain puzzled as to why they won't close down enough to eliminate the vertical play yet you are able to eliminate side to side play.

-frank


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## markba633csi

You might want to take a look at Deans website he has about the most thorough run-thru of the bushing replacement on these machines,
scroll to the bottom of the page to the Atlas 618 section. 
Your spindle might be more worn than you realized. Or perhaps one of the bushings you got was not correct. 
Anyhow, check it out. Don't give up too soon- you're just getting started
www.deansphotographica.com
Mark S.


----------



## kopeck

Z2V said:


> I know you have unwanted play in your spindle but I was just wondering if you had your work supported on the end with tail stock or rest. On mine I had to support anything sticking out of the chuck more that an inch or two if I was going to get any kind of decent finish. With the work supported it did a pretty good job with the tool dead center. I had the small insert set from Anytime Tools, also used HSS that I ground using Mikey' method. Without support there was little hope in a good finish. I know this won't help your spindle issue but it might help otherwise.
> Jeff



No, you are 100% right, it's something I need to try.  I just got a new dead center, it's on my list of things to try.  The piece I was working on was sticking less then 2" out tough.

I just need to get some material and some time!

K


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## kopeck

francist said:


> Ahh, sorry, I misunderstood the operation of the bushings. Thought they were a two-piece affair with removable cap. I'll assume then that the slit in the bushing is lots wide enough to accommodate some wear in the shaft and still close up snugly. And if that's the case, I remain puzzled as to why they won't close down enough to eliminate the vertical play yet you are able to eliminate side to side play.
> 
> -frank



Yeah, I don't quite get it either.  Like I said it could be a sort of uneven pressure due to hinge like effect.

Pretty sure the worn spindle is the root of the problem though.

K


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## kopeck

markba633csi said:


> You might want to take a look at Deans website he has about the most thorough run-thru of the bushing replacement on these machines,
> scroll to the bottom of the page to the Atlas 618 section.
> Your spindle might be more worn than you realized. Or perhaps one of the bushings you got was not correct.
> Anyhow, check it out. Don't give up too soon- you're just getting started
> www.deansphotographica.com
> Mark S.



I used Dean's page to get the thing apart/replace the bushing.

I'm not giving up, just bummed I got a bit of a lemon to start with.  It's an old machine and it looks like it was used a fair amount, not just a toy that was used once or twice a year.  I think the tough spot I'm in is to make things right I'll have more money then the lathe is worth, I just don't want to dig to big a hole.

K


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## markba633csi

Well if it's any consolation mine came from cross country all busted up, basically it fell out of the box and hit the pavement at least once. 
Lots of repairs needed, including another headstock and leadscrew.  
I was thinking maybe slotting the bushing might be a way to go?
Mark


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## markba633csi

If you were to put a single slit in the bronze bush then it would stay round as you pinch down on it instead of becoming oval- did you save the old
bushings? You could try it on one of them to test the idea
Mark


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## francist

Question is, how far can the bushing be compressed before there is a real risk of cracking the unslotted or "hinge side" of the headstock casting?

-frank


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## markba633csi

You are correct Frank, extreme care must be taken not to crack the pinch part.  Might even be advisable to heat the area somewhat and tighten progressively over a
period of days or even weeks.  (think braces on your teeth) In a case like this it might be best to stop short of perfection; if the error could be reduced by 60-70% I would consider it good enough.
Mark S.


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## markba633csi

Perhaps a judicious application of solder in a few areas around the outside of the bronze would help reduce the amount of tightening required without
plugging up the porosity of the bushing too much...?
Mark


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## kopeck

Hey guys,

Just reading though the ideas.  I kept the old bushings so slotting it is an option just to see what happens.  I do agree that you would have to be carful with the tension, it would be pretty easy to crack the casting.  That being said I do have a decent amount of pressure on there now.

I think you're right that shooting for perfection is not realistic.  .006" is to much but I bet .002" would be quite usable.

I think solder would be hard to keep consistent pressure.  I would hate to do more damage then good.

Sears still lists the Spindle, $700 bucks and I could be as good as new! 

K


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## Z2V

Did you check Clausing for the spindle? Probably less but still sure to be several hundred.


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## bfd

I started out with the same lathe. great machine. made lots of parts on it. wasn't fast but did the job. I remember on cut I  was making in backgear with a hss bit 1/4" deep on 4140 took an hour per pass started the cut went in the house and watched tv while the cut went on. did a great job slow but!! bill


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## kopeck

Z2V said:


> Did you check Clausing for the spindle? Probably less but still sure to be several hundred.



I haven't but I suspect it's still hundreds of dollars like you said.  There was a very nice looking one on eBay a month or two ago that I missed out on.  It was when I had my lathe apart and I knew my spindle wasn't 100%, I saw it at lunch time and when I got home from work I went to buy it and it was gone.  I suspect good ones you have to be quick to acquire.

K


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## David S

Could you lay some brass shim stock over the bushing to reduce the amount of travel to tighten the casting?  Once you split the bushing that is.

David


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## kopeck

OK...I have a plan.

The old busing isn't going to be usable.  It's pretty darn worn out (not a big surprise there).  I would rather not split my new, OE part as I might need it if I find a new spindle and it wasn't the cheapest thing in the world.

So I'm going to get a new, 1" ID, 1 1/4" OD x 1 1/4" long (I need to double check the OD) sintered bronze bushing, split it and see how it goes.  I think the OE bushing is sized slightly different in the ID then a run of the mill bushing but since we're modifying it I don't think it's going to matter.

The split can be lined up with the split in the casting, that will keep the load on the solid face.

I don't see that I have a whole lot to lose.  The spindle clearly has issues so I don't think I can make it worse.  The only think I'm a little worried about is the split busing rotating in the housing.

K


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## Bob Korves

Keep on trying to learn about your lathe and get it repaired, but try not to force or break anything or damage anything beyond use.  If it gets to looking like it will cost a lot of money and too much effort to fix it, then part it out or sell it as a basket case and move on to a lathe you can cut decent chips with.  There is little worse to a newcomer than to be fighting a machine when he really wants to be playing and learning and making nice things.  You could probably sell the parts of the machine on eBay for more than you paid for it.  But don't give up too early, working on machines is how we learn the nuts and bolts of how they operate.  Just remember to stand back at intervals and ask yourself honestly if you are following the best course for what you want to accomplish.  Only you can decide...


----------



## kopeck

Bob Korves said:


> Keep on trying to learn about your lathe and get it repaired, but try not to force or break anything or damage anything beyond use.  If it gets to looking like it will cost a lot of money and too much effort to fix it, then part it out or sell it as a basket case and move on to a lathe you can cut decent chips with.  There is little worse to a newcomer than to be fighting a machine when he really wants to be playing and learning and making nice things.  You could probably sell the parts of the machine on eBay for more than you paid for it.  But don't give up too early, working on machines is how we learn the nuts and bolts of how they operate.  Just remember to stand back at intervals and ask yourself honestly if you are following the best course for what you want to accomplish.  Only you can decide...



Yeah, I'm not going to force anything but I think this is a worth while experiment.  A new bushing is $5.00 and my time.

It has crossed my mind that I could part it out if push came to shove.  I'm sure I could get pretty close to breaking even, then just chalk it up to a learning experience.  My bed isn't great and the lead screw is toast but it's carriage and compound are in great shape and I have all the gears and those seem to be popular.

I bought this lathe as a tool to learn on, if I can get it to the point where I can cut well enough to do that I'll be happy.

K


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## westsailpat

Seen this ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Atlas-Craft...399858?hash=item3d37eec4b2:g:TN8AAOSwU8hY66qL


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## Z2V

Have you given thought to repairing your spindle, build it up and turn it back to spec?


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## kopeck

Z2V said:


> Have you given thought to repairing your spindle, build it up and turn it back to spec?



I thought they were precision ground?

K


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## kopeck

westsailpat said:


> Seen this ?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Atlas-Craft...399858?hash=item3d37eec4b2:g:TN8AAOSwU8hY66qL



I did...

I really want to get my spindle sorted out first.

K


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## Z2V

My mistake


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## kopeck

Z2V said:


> My mistake


 
Don't take my word on it. 

To be honest I don't have a clue where I could even take it to see if it was possible.  The local shop wouldn't be able to do it and the only other machine shop around only does work for industry.

K


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## kopeck

Alright, I ordered a bushing but I've also ordered some material that probably a bit more appropriate for my machine.

I think before I take anything apart I'll give the 6061 and the 12L14 a go with and with out the tail stock supporting the work.  If I can get decent results I'll probably just leave it as is and make some chips.

If it still leaves a bad finish I'll install the split bushing and go from there.

If all that fails...

https://maine.craigslist.org/bar/d/10-machine-lathe-atlas/6324620633.html

(I'm only somewhat joking...no idea on it's condition but this is the size machine I was looking for).

K


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## kopeck

Oy...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXCELLENT-A...140715?hash=item56a313556b:g:XwkAAOSwtZ5Z39Ui

It does look pretty darn good, little more then I would like to spend though.  I think I need to do some inspecting on my machine today!

K


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## Z2V

That does look like a good deal if it is in good shape. He has 14 day return if it turned out to be out of spec. If memory serves me that thrust bearing alone is around $75, only available from Clausing.


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## westsailpat

Looks like we are all looking at the same stuff . My spindle is not grate shape , but not bad enough to replace . A new bushing is all I really need , I'll be doing that this winter . I'm really interested to see how yours turns out K .


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## kopeck

Part of me says I just need to buy the darn thing and be done with it but I want to see how bad mine is first.  I did get some 12L15 and 6061, I may make a few passes on those for the fun of it too.

I'm in pretty deep as is, I kind of sealed the deal with the purchase of the start kit from LMS.

K


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## kopeck

Alright, only had an hour or so to play so I cut a 3" chunk of 6061 and 12L14.  All these cuts were made at the same speed and feed rate (.0024").




This is a couple of cuts with out tailstock support in 6061.  It likes Aluminum but I guess that's no surprise.  The finish is OK, even acceptable by my unexperienced standards.




There's two things going on in this picture.  First this is a cut with the tailstock supporting the piece, it's better then without.  The other thing I'm showing is the horizontal deflection, that's nearly .005" at about 2 1/2" from the chuck with just my thumb creating the pressure.  I have no idea what should be expected on these machines but that's what my machine is doing.




This is showing the vertical deflection, again about 2 1/2" from the chuck.  .009"

Next I chucked up some 12L14, from what I've read this stuff is a dream to machine, not so much for me.




Here's a light cut, around .005 with out support.  You can head the chatter as it cuts.  All I have is YouTube to tell be what I should be hearing but this is rough and the chips are very small.  In aluminum I was getting more consistant strings of chips.




Here's the same cut but with support, better but not great.  Still feels like a file when you run your finger nail over it.




For what it's worth it faces quite nicely.

I ran out of time to remove the spindle but is it pretty safe to say that most of my problem are probably there? 

K


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## wa5cab

Yes, most likely.


----------



## kopeck

*Gulp*

I pulled the trigger.

If I had to do it all over again I would have waited for a better machine but I guess I'm committed now! 

K


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## kopeck

The "new" spindle is here.  I need to mic it but boy it sure looks good.

I hope to have some time this weekend to tear things apart.  I'm sort of wondering if I've done any damage (malformed) my bushing from over tightening.  I guess I'll find out soon enough.

K


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## francist

Oilite bushings are actually pretty springy, a lot more memory than you might imagine. Besides, why go looking for trouble if you don't have to? Hope for the best, and good luck.

-frank


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## kopeck

OK.  I kind of figured I would try them before I did anything.  

I'm hoping for the best! 

K


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## westsailpat

Hi K , working on it right now ? Waiting to hear how it goes .  Mark .


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## kopeck

westsailpat said:


> Hi K , working on it right now ? Waiting to hear how it goes .  Mark .



Just got up from the basement.  It's been an interesting night.

The spindle looks great, I would say it came out of a lathe that was never really used.  I'm pretty happy even if it was a bit more then I wanted to spend.

I first tried to install it with my new bushings.  I could get the spindle in but the amount of friction WAY to high.  I could hardly turn it by hand.  The new spindle came with it's original bushing so I carefully replaced them and pretty much ran into the same problem.  I was not in the best mood.

So I pulled the bushing out and really looked at them closely.  Turns out you can see the "pinch point" in them so after a little more investigating I was able to also figure out the orientation they were in.  I put everything back in the way it would have come out of it's original home and I was able to turn the spindle by hand with a chuck on it.

Everything was well lubed up so I figured what the heck lets see if they will run in.  It spun up, I let it run for 30 second or so then flipped the switch off.  There was still enough friction to act as a brake which spun my chuck off!  The darn thing put two dings in my ways, I may have let a few bad words slip.  Luckily the dents are dead center where neither the carriage or the tail stock will interfere.  Dodged a bullet but still not happy.

So I started running it in again (with out a chuck) and it loosened up.  After a while I put the chuck back on and to a few passes on the 12L14 steel and got some much improved results (sorry for the blurry photo, my phone wouldn't focus).




The spindle spins well now with just a touch of pressure from the screws.  The housing feels warm to the touch after running for a while but not hot enough that I can't keep my finger on it.

The reading from my dial indicator shows (on the same piece of steel from my photos above) a pretty big improvement vertically, just a few thousands down from .010"  Horizontal play didn't improve all that much, .004" down from .005".  Maybe that's just normal, I mean you have to have some play in there.  I also noticed that it does vary if the machine is warm vs. cold.

So overall I'm happy.  I'm mad the chuck came off but it's not then end of the world.

Now a question.  I'm using some tap cutting oil I had around.  It seem to turn into instant smoke when cutting.  Is that normal?  Remember I don't have a clue what I'm doing here, I don't seem to see the guys on YouTube have these problems though.

K


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## Z2V

Good to hear you were able to get a new spindle and see a reasonable improvement. I bet it was a shock to see the chuck come spinning off at you. You will know this machine very well by the time you get her dialed in!


----------



## kopeck

Z2V said:


> Good to hear you were able to get a new spindle and see a reasonable improvement. I bet it was a shock to see the chuck come spinning off at you. You will know this machine very well by the time you get her dialed in!



Surprised is one way to put it.  The way that sucker bounced around I'm surprised it didn't do more damage.

Yeah, I've had this things completely apart.  It's neat, super simple.  

I do kind of think that long term it's going to be to small for what I want to do BUT I sure can learn to make chips with it!

K


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## Z2V

I sold my 07301 a month ago and bought a bigger one but wish I had the room to have kept the Craftsman


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## francist

Good job K, I'm glad that worked out for you. 

As for the smoke, some fluids are just worse than others. I used to use Tapmatic Gold and it always smoked like crazy. Masters thread cutting oil, not so much, so I use that mostly now. Lots of different flavours out there tho, and everybody seems to have their own favourite. A small fan (dashboard size) is nice to have close by too just to keep it from lingering.

-frank


----------



## westsailpat

Hi K , a few questions . Did you mic. the spindle and the bushings before assembly  ? That probably wasn't a good question because we would be looking for a very small size like .0005 maybe I don't know .? Well it doesn't really matter now because you are back together and running . Monday morning quarter back here , I think to just slip the bush on the spindle and check the fit would be interesting . Now the big question , did you drill and split the bushing ?  My machine I think has the original bushings and they are drilled and split (just one side) . A thought here , when checking for spindle play I would not check with the chuck on . It is possible that the jaws are worn and when you chuck up a bar and put the indicator to it you might be seeing the bar just move in the chuck ?
I'm glad that you are happy with the end results . Putting a ding in any machine is always a melancholy moment , we have all been there .
As far as cutting oil , I really dislike the heavy sulfur threading oil  IMO it smells horrible and it smokes easy . I have been using this stuff .
http://www.tacomascrew.com/Products...MIm7mF1dWE1wIViZ9-Ch0dygmWEAQYASABEgKNX_D_BwE
Also I like water soluble oil , but wouldn't really recommend it . Its expensive and if you don't get it off (like under the compound) it will rust .
Keep us posted ! Mark .


----------



## kopeck

The new spindle had pretty much no wear, my bore gauge is to big to work in the bushings so I can't say.  I need to remeasure the old spindle, I'll try and do that tomorrow.  Visually the old bushings that came with the spindle looked great.

I think what happened to the new bushings is I put so much pressure on them I kind of crushed them so they're snug now.  The back bushing was very snug even when it was out of the machine and I tried dry fitting it.

I'll try checking things without the chuck.  I need more free time! 

K


----------



## wa5cab

Another bad "feature" of water soluble oil is that if you let it sit in the reservoir, it will eventually turn into a solid.


----------



## kopeck

So the Relton Rapid Tap doesn't smoke to bad?

Two or three cuts with the stuff I'm using and the haze it pretty decent.  My wife wasn't thrilled. 

K


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## westsailpat

The Rapid Tap will smoke if you get it really hot , but not like the black sulfur oil and it doesn't have that awful smell . A nice feature about that can that is shown in the RT link is that you unscrew cap and take out the "application nozzle' (for lack of a better word) you flip it around and then screw the cap on over it and cut the tip off . The tube is about 4" long and about .100 at the tip , so application is precision , if you need the hole bigger you just cut further down the tube (the hole is tapered) . At least that's the way it was when I was buying it by the case , I bought a can the other day and it came like this  https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn...MIt5zjqN-J1wIVg7fACh1BuQRkEAQYASABEgLYwvD_BwE
I was kind of disappointed I really liked the can , but the plastic bottle does have a nice app tip that you can flip up .


----------



## westsailpat

Another bad feature about water soluble at least in a production environment is that you are constantly skimming the sump for tramp oil (I just used a vacuum) and now you are stuck with waste oil . One more thing  and this is the worst , say you don't use the sump for a week when you do turn it on it smells like something died in there .


----------



## kopeck

Well, I think I'll shy away from the water soluble stuff then. 

The stuff I have now instantly turns to smoke, light cuts, doesn't matter.  It just tap oil so it was never meant for any kind of speed.

K


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## kopeck

Just a project update.  Life kind of derailed me working on the lathe, you just never know what's going to to happen sometimes.

Anyway, I had to use the lathe to cut down some pop-rivets (yes, I needed a length that turned out to be uncommon) so it got my interest fired up again.  I did get a new (to me) lead screw so now the power feed works.  I really want to thread something, no reason why other then it seems like a good challenge.

I do want to get a scroll chuck.  Working on small stuff (ie the rivets) the 4 jaw was a bit of a pain.  Has anyone used the Shars chucks?  I've read some reviews that say they're OK, not great.  We're talking about a 6" Craftsman lathe here so OK might be just the ticket.

The biggest issue I have at the moment is the more I look at project I want to do the more it's becoming clear I need a mill to go with the lathe!

K


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## Dave Paine

kopeck said:


> I do want to get a scroll chuck.  Working on small stuff (ie the rivets) the 4 jaw was a bit of a pain.  Has anyone used the Shars chucks?  I've read some reviews that say they're OK, not great.  We're talking about a 6" Craftsman lathe here so OK might be just the ticket.
> 
> The biggest issue I have at the moment is the more I look at project I want to do the more it's becoming clear I need a mill to go with the lathe!



I also started with a lathe and then realised I also could use a mill.   Finally got a second hand mill 14 months ago.  

My second hand Grizzly metal lathe came with a Shars 6in adjustable chuck.   I really like this chuck.  I have no experience with other Shars chuck, but if I needed another chuck I would likely get one from Shars.

Shars adjustable 3 jaw chuck


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## westsailpat

Hi kopeck , here are some chucks . This one I think is pretty cool if you don't need through spindle . Although with this one you need to use a draw bar . https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-3-JW-MT2-2MT-SELFCENTER-MORSE-TAPER-MINI-CHUCK-LATHE/350977606424?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649  This one is probably the same one Shars is selling but with either of these chucks you need the adapter plate https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1187&category=566826475
Also It would be easy and inexpensive to make a collet system .


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## wa5cab

If you do a lot of machining of very small parts like rivets, you would be better served by either a Jacobs 3-jaw spindle chuck No. 56B or by collets.


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## kopeck

I think I'm going to get just their plain 4" 3 jaw with a 1-8 backing plate.

wa5cab, I was kicking my self for not having a MT 2 to MT 1 sleeve.  The chuck would have been ideal, I was just parting off to make them smaller.

I played with some 1" aluminum just because last night.  Messed around with spindle speeds, I have the feed at the slowest setting.  I found a combo that cut really well and left a really nice finish.  I'm pretty excited to get some more "real" projects going. 

K


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## The Liberal Arts Garage

Did you notice you're  the long-sought ideal Newbie ? The Oft-Asked Thread
Question-- if everything  is clean and tight , back off the chuck a couple  of
turns. Give it a smart turn ( RH ) and if you can't  unscrew  it easily by hand
You're safe enough.  Do Not try any cutting operations!  BLJHB


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## kopeck

I guess I don't understand?

K


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## markba633csi

Agree w/ Robert- copper wire has really gone up in price
M


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## kopeck

Is there a joke here that I'm missing?

K


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## wa5cab

FYI, all editions of the Atlas MOLO give suggested cutting speeds in SFM (Surface Feet Per Minute) for many different materials.  And they have a quick reference table for looking up the required RPM (or actually the nearest available RPM on an Atlas 10" or 12" lathe) for various surface speeds and diameters.


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## The Liberal Arts Garage

kopeck said:


> Never mind, I think I get it.
> 
> It's been "hacked" a little to work with the drum switch.
> 
> I'll check it out with my meter later today.
> 
> K


As I am noted for dumb little suggestions , here are two more: make a way
protector. Grab three scraps of wood,one of quarter-inch plywood, 8" long
and 2 pieces of one by three to suit, nail together. Concave dings ,though
shameful,don't affect accuracy , Find a somewhat dull Nichoison flat file
and slide it along the wounded way, Four plus fingers ,this is just to  find
the  high spots . If there are any , apply tips  of fingers to blend them in
As you do this , you will learn to feel when it's right.     BLJHB


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## kopeck

3 Jaw!

Machining the black plate was interesting.  I'm not sure I ever want to machine cast iron again, what I mess.  My carbide inserts didn't really like to cut, especially at the outside diameter of the face, I could stall/slip the belts really easily.  I tried some hand ground HSS but that didn't help a whole lot (probably due to my grind).  Finally I went to youtube and started looking around found an older Abom79 video and he was using some random brazed on carbide tool.  I had a few el chepo brazed tools, I can't recall where I got them but they were cheap and I'll be but it worked!  I think the big round nose on the cutting edge was key.  I still couldn't cut a ton per pass but but what I did cut clean and random stalling went away.  Still what a mess, I might as well have grabbed the tractor and dumped a load of sand on top of the lathe.  I took the carriage apart to clean it, that stuff was everywhere!  I bet on a bigger machine where you could make chips vs the dust I made it wouldn't be as bad.

The run out in the chuck is a bit more then I had hoped.  I'm seeing about .004 with drill rod.  Maybe that's OK for a Shars chuck.  I still have the old 4 jaw if I need to dial thing in.  I did check the back plate and it seemed to machine pretty true, I would get a rand dip on the indicator but I think that was just the tip finding a rough spot in the casting.

Pretty happy in the end.  I can't wait to do tackle a few projects.  I think I'm already dealing with some bigger lathe envy, the little 6" is fun to use but I can see it's limitations.

K


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## wa5cab

K

In my experience, cast iron, like a few other materials, doesn't yield chips.


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## kopeck

wa5cab said:


> K
> 
> In my experience, cast iron, like a few other materials, doesn't yield chips.



It yields evil. 

I think one of the problems with my carbide inserts is that it would start to get a chip or peal the cast that's what would stall the lathe.

I also am wondering about my electric motor.  It's a high start torque motor for HVAC applications, it snaps on but doesn't seem to carry a ton of torque at speed.  I was making a light pass on some steel today with the lead screw on and it was doing it's thing but you could tell the motor was being taxed.  It works aluminum like a dream.

K


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## wa5cab

That should only make a difference during starting.  What is the rated HP?


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## kopeck

It's a 1/3 HP GE Serv-S-Line motor running at 1725 RPM.

The last time I looked it up it's for blower type applications that take some torque to start but not to keep going.  With the belt in the highest speed position and the lead screw engaged the motor is very easily stalled, even in aluminum on anything more then a scratch pass.  Now I don't run up at that speed, I was just experimenting with speeds and feeds.

I've been running it at the second to the fastest setting with aluminum and it works pretty well.  I've found that steel just doesn't want me to use the lead screw.  I've been hand feeding which is fine but it would be nice to do a finish pass with the lead screw.

I know Atlas suggests a 1/3 HP motor, I don't want to over do it but I also feel like this one just doesn't have the torque when you need it.

K


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## wa5cab

OK,  It does sound as though you may need a different motor.  A general duty 1/3 HP shouldn't stall that easily.  Probably the PO put that motor on the machine because it was either free or was the cheapest one he could find.


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## kopeck

I have a a few motors kicking around.  I know I have a 1/4HP and a couple of 1/2 HP.  I suspect the belts would slip before the 1/2 motor could do any real damage.

K


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## wa5cab

OK.  As a test until you can get a permanent replacement, I would try the physically smallest 1/2 HP one.  The two features of a motor that is too large that would generally be considered undesirable would be the cost to run it, and the fact that if something happened like a crash into the headstock, the larger motor might be capable of increasing the damage.  Plus of course, a larger motor would normally take up more space.  Atlas even in the later years continued to recommend a 1/3 HP motor for the 618, in the Craftsman catalogs they say "at least 1/3 HP".  So if you have to buy one, I would go with a 1/3.  But to fix your immediate problem, try one of the 1/2's.


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## kopeck

I never got back on the whole motor thing.

The motor seems to be doing much better now.  A couple of things happened, first, and the biggest issue is the input pulley on the counter shaft had walked out a alignment from the motor.  The way my machine is setup it wasn't super obvious what had happened but that extra friction zapped quite a bit of torque.  Also the cone pulleys both in the head and on the counter shaft are worn so the belt tension changes when I change speeds which adds more friction and draws the motor down easier.  I've gotten a feel for it, the "cam shaft" that throws the counter shaft into gear has a little wear in it and allows me to fine tune the tension...for once a little wear helps out!  I could get new(er) cone pulleys but this seems to work and I don't feel like spending more money. 

When everything is so small little things add up quickly.

It's a fun little machine, you just need to be very patient.  I've turned some steel, it loves aluminum (in which I have a few projects lined up).  I want to try some brass as well, maybe a little signal cannon for the 4th!  

K


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## 92VwGTI

Kopeck, I have to ask, is your username your surname? Mine is Kopecki and I just bought the same model lathe last week. Small world.


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## kopeck

92VwGTI said:


> Kopeck, I have to ask, is your username your surname? Mine is Kopecki and I just bought the same model lathe last week. Small world.



It's Kopishke.  Back in middle school a couple of kids couldn't pronounce my surname (which is pretty easy as long as you don't look at how it's spelled) so one of them tagged me with Kopeck.  It stuck, high school and college.  No one uses it anymore, which is really OK by me but it does make a decent handle for forums and such.

Kopecki is a good one, I bet you've had to spell once or twice in your life. 

K


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## 92VwGTI

kopeck said:


> It's Kopishke.  Back in middle school a couple of kids couldn't pronounce my surname (which is pretty easy as long as you don't look at how it's spelled) so one of them tagged me with Kopeck.  It stuck, high school and college.  No one uses it anymore, which is really OK by me but it does make a decent handle for forums and such.
> 
> Kopecki is a good one, I bet you've had to spell once or twice in your life.
> 
> K


I get kopeski A LOT lol


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## kopeck

92VwGTI said:


> I get kopeski A LOT lol



That's pretty much how we pronounce it (CO-pesky)

I've noticed there's a lot of names that are really similar.  I've often wondered if they're truly different names or just variations.  In my case the name originates from Germany.  To keep things on topic Germans make really cool stuff on lathes. 

K


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## 92VwGTI

kopeck said:


> That's pretty much how we pronounce it (CO-pesky)
> 
> I've noticed there's a lot of names that are really similar.  I've often wondered if they're truly different names or just variations.  In my case the name originates from Germany.  To keep things on topic Germans make really cool stuff on lathes.
> 
> K


Germans make a lot of excellent things. I absolutely love a quality German tool. I’m German, Russian, and polish with my surname being of polish descent.

I need to get out and work on my lathe but work has been kicking my butt and I can’t do much until I order and receive a tool post. I’m considering the QCTP from LMS.


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## westsailpat

You won't be sorry for that purchase 92VwGTI . When you get the post also get a 1" travel indicator mount it in the post and measure if there is any movement in the chuck . What you are looking for is actually movement in the spindle . Actually you could do that before you get the post . You can get a travel indicator set up for pretty cheap . I just put new bushings in my 6" and it didn't help because the spindle was worn out . I posted earlier about this so  ignore this part if you already read it . My spindle was worn down about .006 , the spindle is not made anymore and a good one is hard to get so I split the bushing on one side drilled a oil hole I installed the whole thing and then carefully tightened up the clamp . I didn't have to over tighten very much and I got the spin wobble down .001 .
I'm in the middle of a project right now , the first thing I had to do was to machine down the head of a SS 5/16 bolt . this was not a real good thing to do on the little 6" because it is a interrupted cut (no lathe likes that) , I went slow the little guy handled it . One thing it had a problem with was when facing the bolt it didn't want to finish getting off the last little ti* .  One thing to remember the bolt head is hardened a bit  so I didn't push the last part , I just filed it off (it gets polished with a 3M deburr wheel , last op) . Next up I needed to make some spacers and 5/16 threaded bushings . optimum mat. would have been 316L SS  no way was I going to ask that of the lathe and I wanted to get this done in hours not days , so 303 was used. It's soft , the spacers (12 of them) had a 5/8 dia. and a 5/16 thru hole and 3/8 wide . Drilling went fine and the part off went so well that I could of just left that finish but I faced them to size anyway . The threaded bushing had me a little concerned because it was 3/4 wide and I had to tap all the way thru but no problem . All in all the 6" preformed  well my back not so much .


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## kopeck

92VwGTI said:


> Germans make a lot of excellent things. I absolutely love a quality German tool. I’m German, Russian, and polish with my surname being of polish descent.
> 
> I need to get out and work on my lathe but work has been kicking my butt and I can’t do much until I order and receive a tool post. I’m considering the QCTP from LMS.



My Grandmother was Polish, first generation born here.  People often think my name is Polish but the whole hke vs ski thing...

I got their Craftsman/Atlas 6" kit and I like it.  I didn't really have a usable tool post so the purchase was a no brainer for me.  The carbide inserts seem to work pretty well too.  I need to learn how to grind HSS as the one thing I have plenty of is blanks!

K


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## 92VwGTI

kopeck said:


> My Grandmother was Polish, first generation born here.  People often think my name is Polish but the whole hke vs ski thing...
> 
> I got their Craftsman/Atlas 6" kit and I like it.  I didn't really have a usable tool post so the purchase was a no brainer for me.  The carbide inserts seem to work pretty well too.  I need to learn how to grind HSS as the one thing I have plenty of is blanks!
> 
> K





westsailpat said:


> You won't be sorry for that purchase 92VwGTI . When you get the post also get a 1" travel indicator mount it in the post and measure if there is any movement in the chuck . What you are looking for is actually movement in the spindle . Actually you could do that before you get the post . You can get a travel indicator set up for pretty cheap . I just put new bushings in my 6" and it didn't help because the spindle was worn out . I posted earlier about this so  ignore this part if you already read it . My spindle was worn down about .006 , the spindle is not made anymore and a good one is hard to get so I split the bushing on one side drilled a oil hole I installed the whole thing and then carefully tightened up the clamp . I didn't have to over tighten very much and I got the spin wobble down .001 .
> I'm in the middle of a project right now , the first thing I had to do was to machine down the head of a SS 5/16 bolt . this was not a real good thing to do on the little 6" because it is a interrupted cut (no lathe likes that) , I went slow the little guy handled it . One thing it had a problem with was when facing the bolt it didn't want to finish getting off the last little ti* .  One thing to remember the bolt head is hardened a bit  so I didn't push the last part , I just filed it off (it gets polished with a 3M deburr wheel , last op) . Next up I needed to make some spacers and 5/16 threaded bushings . optimum mat. would have been 316L SS  no way was I going to ask that of the lathe and I wanted to get this done in hours not days , so 303 was used. It's soft , the spacers (12 of them) had a 5/8 dia. and a 5/16 thru hole and 3/8 wide . Drilling went fine and the part off went so well that I could of just left that finish but I faced them to size anyway . The threaded bushing had me a little concerned because it was 3/4 wide and I had to tap all the way thru but no problem . All in all the 6" preformed  well my back not so much .



When checking runout on the spindle are you just rotating the chuck by hand?



kopeck said:


> My Grandmother was Polish, first generation born here.  People often think my name is Polish but the whole hke vs ski thing...
> 
> I got their Craftsman/Atlas 6" kit and I like it.  I didn't really have a usable tool post so the purchase was a no brainer for me.  The carbide inserts seem to work pretty well too.  I need to learn how to grind HSS as the one thing I have plenty of is blanks!
> 
> K



I have some carbide insert bits and HSS blanks but I can’t for the life of me get the cutter set low enough on the lantern that came with my lathe.


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## wa5cab

92VwGTI said:


> When checking runout on the spindle are you just rotating the chuck by hand?
> 
> Usually, yes.
> 
> Be sure that you lock the carriage lock while checking chuck runout.  And be ever more sure that you don't forget to unlock it!


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## kopeck

So I'm a traitor.

I've been looking for something bigger for a while now, it didn't take me long to realize a 6" lathe has it's limits.  A few Atlas machines came up but none were really what I was looking for.  For what ever reason a handful of South Bends popped up locally and after looking at a few I'm the owner of a "new" 9A.

Not sure if I'll keep the Craftsman, I keep going back and forth.  I like the machine, it was fun to make right but I'm not sure I need it.  We will see, I'm keeping it until the 9A is online at the very least.

K


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## A618fan2

Welcome to the "traitor" club!  It's the brief stop over on the way to club obsessed where you wind up with all manner metal (and or wood) working machines.  My metal working journey began with an Atlas 618 and slowly morphed into a full blown slide down the slippery slope.  Enjoy the journey 

John


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