# Mill Clamps...which?



## EmilioG (Mar 17, 2017)

I have a smallish collection of milling table clamps and fixtures but would like to expand.
Jergens, TeCo and Mitee Bite are a few that look well made and useful, but will probably go
with a Te Co set and a few Jergens.  What is everyone here using and what do you like and would
like to buy? Some of these clamps/fixtures can get very expensive. What's good?

Also, how do some of you clamp small work that needs to get cut right to the bottom, say something like
a set of Jacobs wedges? Do you put a piece of sacrificial material on the bottom? wood, aluminum?


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## mikey (Mar 17, 2017)

I bought this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HGGS5K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Te-Co makes nice stuff and considering what is in their kits, the price is fair. 

I made a set of wedges by using a long piece and screwing it (countersunk flat head screws) to a piece of scrap aluminum. Then I angled it in the vise to cut and slot it. Making them worked fine but they still bent when trying to remove a stuck arbor from an Albrecht chuck. Wedges suck!


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## darkzero (Mar 17, 2017)

I would like to buy a Te-Co set...... someday, but not high on my list. I got an import set for free & it works fine for me. Some pieces are rough like the threaded studs but I can't complain.

Some people use mdf as a sacraficial backing plate for general purpose. I've never used it myself & would never have thought to but I hear it's surprisingly flat. 

Nothing really helpful from me here, mainly I just wanted to chime in & agree in saying that wedges suck. Had I known I would have never bought those stupid Jacobs wedges years ago. They have worked for me a few times but I still hate them.


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## mikey (Mar 17, 2017)

Okay, that's two "wedges suck" votes so far ...

I forgot to add that the Te-co set I listed is for the forged version. Te-co makes a cheaper powdered metal version but I don't know anything about it. The forged one is really cleanly machined, good threads, T-nuts that actually fit as they should, etc.


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## darkzero (Mar 17, 2017)

Good point Mike. 20402 is the most common set, "for Bridgeports". The cheaper set is known as the promo kit that is 20402-PL. But I didn't know they were powdered metal, then again I never really paid attention as I wasn't ready to buy. I guess that's why people complain about them not being the same quality as their other kits. The promo kit also has a plastic holder. IIRC the promo kits used to go on sale for like $50-60 at Enco.

Pay attention to the p/ns when purchased, most places carry either or. Amazon sells both. MSC only has the promo kit.

Dammit, why did I have to read your post Mike, now I want to buy one! Zoro has them for the same price as Amazon, free shipping, but use GADGET4 to get you 20% off.

20401 would work better for me but it's not as common so not everyone carries them & it costs more. $75 more on Amazon for a kit that has smaller T-nuts! I have to mill them down anyway so 20402 it would be.

Mike can you confirm if your set has 7/8" nuts?


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## mikey (Mar 17, 2017)

My kit has this one: http://catalog.te-co.com/item/all-c...410?&plpver=10&origin=keyword&filter=&by=prod

Intended for tables with 5/8" slots. The part of the nut that fits in the slot is slightly undersized so its a nice fit. The base of the nut is 1" wide.

I think you need the 20401 kit: http://catalog.te-co.com/item/clamping-kits/machinist-clamp-kits/20401#
The 20401 kit is intended for 1/2" slots and the T-nut is 7/8" wide.

Sorry about this, Will, but you have everything else ... why not a new clamping kit, too?


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## intjonmiller (Mar 17, 2017)

I inherited a set of import clamps (90s "vintage") along with a few Te-Co and another oddball or two. I can confirm that the Te-Co are much nicer than the others. Edges have been broken consistently, threads are smoother, etc. 

When I was at my local nut & bolt supply place the other day I picked up a 3' length of black oxide 1/2"-13 allthread to make some more studs, and a dozen 1/4"-28 screws for the Pass-Along box, and I was still under the $5 minimum purchase. The threads on the allthread are cleaner than the ones on the kit studs. I'm just going to cut to lengths and then mill some flats for a wrench. Probably add them to the kit studs as well. 

Anyway, point is it's cheap material and there aren't many simpler projects to make if you have time and don't want to spend the money on the full kit. You can make them as nice as you like.


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## darkzero (Mar 17, 2017)

Haha, not actually blaming you. I guess I have helped plenty of people spend money here & it goes both ways, that's what we do right. 

Sorry, my fault, I should have been more clear. I wanted to know about the flange nuts. Are they 7/8" hex? MSC say 1" for some reason but I think it's a misprint. Te-co documents does list 7/8" but I just wanted to be sure it wasn't changed or something like that.

I don't have a BP, not yet anyway. My T slots are 14mm so I have to mill them down which is no big deal. I know they do have a 14mm T-nut kit but that's even harder to find.


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## mikey (Mar 17, 2017)

darkzero said:


> Haha, not actually blaming you. I guess I have helped plenty of people spend money here & it goes both ways, that's what we do right.
> 
> Sorry, my fault, I should have been more clear. I wanted to know about the flange nuts. Are they 7/8" hex? MSC say 1" for some reason but I think it's a misprint. Te-co documents does list 7/8" but I just wanted to be sure it wasn't changed or something like that.
> 
> I don't have a BP, not yet anyway. My T slots are 14mm so I have to mill them down which is no big deal. I know they do have a 14mm T-nut kit but that's even harder to find.



This is the flange nut in my kit so yes, 7/8": http://catalog.te-co.com/item/all-c...605?&plpver=10&origin=keyword&filter=&by=prod

And the 14mm clamping kit: http://catalog.te-co.com/item/clamping-kits/machinist-clamp-kits/68002

As you can see, I'm trying really hard to spend your money!!


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## darkzero (Mar 17, 2017)

mikey said:


> This is the flange nut in my kit so yes, 7/8": http://catalog.te-co.com/item/all-c...605?&plpver=10&origin=keyword&filter=&by=prod
> 
> And the 14mm clamping kit: http://catalog.te-co.com/item/clamping-kits/machinist-clamp-kits/68002
> 
> As you can see, I'm trying really hard to spend your money!!



Haha! Yeah, the metric kits are hard to find, not common so they cost a lot more.

14mm kit uses 10mm/.393" studs. I think people usually use 1/2" T-slot kits for 14mm table slots which uses 3/8" studs but it's a loose fit on the T-nuts, I don't like that.

I like the 5/8" kit cause they use the 1/2" studs. The 5/8" T-nuts have just enough room to mill down to .55" which is what I did to my cheap import set.

The 20401 kit has 9/16" T-nuts & 1/2" studs so less milling but it costs $75 more than 20402 because again not as common. I have no problem milling the 5/8" T-nuts down to .55" & save $75.

Thanks for confirming the flange nut size. 7/8" is perfect. I ask cause my wrench is 7/8" on one end & 3/4" on the other end, so it's perfect for the clamp set & my vise. Don't have to have another wrench sitting by. Yeah yeah, I know....

Awe man, now I just might have to buy the set. Going to wait till Moday though in case Zoro has a 30% sale for St. Patrick's day like last year. Crap I'm not supposed to spend anymore money this month. I have stop coming here.


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## EmilioG (Mar 17, 2017)

Thank you.       Mike and anyone else that want to make Albrecht removal tools, I own all three and I can post the dimensions/images.
The Albrecht Tools to remove their chucks are really beefy. I couldn't believe how easy it was to remove my Albrecht 16mm keyless chuck
from it's R8 arbor.  Not sure what type of steel they use.  They don't appear to be heat treated.  There are 3 Albrecht tools that cover 5 J and B
sizes.  The smallest, only has one side, JT 0.  

Making an Albrecht style removal tool for Jacobs J3 would be a good idea.  Home GE heat treatment is prefect for these tools, although it may not be necessary
with the right steel. O1 tool steel would be prefect, but it's expensive. 1018 should work.

Clamps:  I read somewhere that BP mill tables can use metric size T nuts.  I'd like to make a few T nuts with a 5/16"-18 tapped hole
to hold my 1 2 3 blocks down to a BP mill table.  I use a BP mill at work, so I'll check the dimensions again.  I bought two Morton
adjustable clamps in good shape recently for $25.00 that included a bunch of TeCo hardware. Since my workplace has several Teco kits,
I never purchased these clamps, but there is a  mill in my future, so I'm shopping for a clamp set.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 17, 2017)

Mike, do you have dimensions for JT33 arbor wedges?  Regardless, I would like to see how yours are designed...


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## EmilioG (Mar 17, 2017)

I think it's cheaper to buy Jacobs wedges than make, not sure, never made them.  I would use better steel and heat treat jacobs style wedges.
By there very design, (Jacobs), wedges have long thin "prong" like forks, that by themselves, are prone to bending.  I believe, an Albrecht style
tool would last forever in JT3.  There is no JT3 Albrecht.  Because of the super narrow space between a Jacobs chuck and certain arbors, thin wedges
would be needed or, in some cases, a through hole for pin, for arbors that don't have a shoulder.


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## mikey (Mar 17, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Mike, do you have dimensions for JT33 arbor wedges?  Regardless, I would like to see how yours are designed...



Sorry, Bob, I do not have the dimensions. I also do not have any more wedges in my shop - they are in the appropriate place - the landfill. I'm liking Emilio's recommendation for the Albrecht pry bars. Next time I need one I'll ask him for the dimensions and make them.


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## mikey (Mar 17, 2017)

darkzero said:


> Awe man, *now I just might have to buy the set*. Going to wait till Moday though in case Zoro has a 30% sale for St. Patrick's day like last year. *Crap I'm not supposed to spend anymore money this month. I have stop coming here*.



You do realize that this almost nails the diagnosis of Machinist OCD, right? If your favorite T-shirt says,
"He who dies with the most toys, wins", then the diagnosis is confirmed!


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## EmilioG (Mar 17, 2017)

at 1:10 the video shows ID and OD of all Jacobs wedges.
I have all 4 Jacobs wedge sets somewhere in a box.  I rarely use them., having all the drill chucks that I wanted.


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## coffmajt (Mar 17, 2017)

I needed to tear down a used Albrecht chuck I got off e-bay for a good price, so I measured the space between the arbor and the chuck and made a pair of wedges to fit from some 4340 steel barstock I had on hand. Did a heat treat with oil quench and temper, and they worked perfectly.  PS - I watched Tom Liptons you tube on servicing an Albrecht chuck, pipe wrench and all, and now have a perfectly smooth operating chuck where it felt horrible before (someone had soaked it in oil which does not work )  -- Good luck == Jack


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## EmilioG (Mar 17, 2017)

Cool. The problem with Jacobs wedges is that they don't last for more than a few removals until the bend or brake.
How did the heat treatment work in keeping your wedges straight?  Did you use them more than once?


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## mikey (Mar 18, 2017)

Tell you what - the next time I need to pop an arbor out of an Albrecht chuck, I'm going to use my bearing separator. One of the guys on the MachinistsBlog site suggested it and I think it might work better than wedges. Worth a try, mostly because I already have the separator.


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## darkzero (Mar 18, 2017)

I don't even care about saving the arbors anymore, for the stubborn ones like the last one I had to remove on my Bison drill chuck, I just cut the arbor down some, thread a decent size hole on the end, make a sleeve slightly longer than the shortened arbor, slip it over the arbor to seat against the chuck body, make a washer to fit the sleeve's OD, screw in a bolt into the arbor, pulls the arbor out without having to say a single cuss word

(I know there should have been some periods in there somewhere so I didn't even bother to put one at the end )


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## mikey (Mar 18, 2017)

Yup, I do that too, but I cuss while I'm at it. Hey, I can't help it; stuck arbors get me really mad ...


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## darkzero (Mar 18, 2017)

mikey said:


> Yup, I do that too, but I cuss while I'm at it. Hey, I can't help it; stuck arbors get me really mad ...



I forgot to add, I persuade it with a 1/4" impact gun. Lucky I'm set on drill chucks for now & shouldn't need to change anymore arbors. That is unless I decide to start looking for an Albrecht again.


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## EmilioG (Mar 18, 2017)

mikey said:


> Tell you what - the next time I need to pop an arbor out of an Albrecht chuck, I'm going to use my bearing separator. One of the guys on the MachinistsBlog site suggested it and I think it might work better than wedges. Worth a try, mostly because I already have the separator.



That is how Royal removes the arbor from their 1 piece chucks.  The knurled ring on the integral chuck is removed with a bearing separator. 
You just need the correct size.  A small one.  The Albrecht removal tool is handy because you can remove the chuck from it's arbor while on the machine.,
otherwise, it could be held in a vise with a wood block or aluminum clamp.  I did it this way once using a piece of mahogany, with the arbor in the wood block held with a vise.  The wood blocks work just as well as aluminum.  As long as your arbor has a shoulder.  Only Jacobs chucks that have a pre-existing hole or pre drilled body hole
can be punched out.  And let's not forget the appropriate arbor press.  The other way is of course, a side drilled hole for a pin to create a shoulder for a removal tool.


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## EmilioG (Mar 18, 2017)

mikey said:


> I bought this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003HGGS5K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Te-Co makes nice stuff and considering what is in their kits, the price is fair.
> 
> I made a set of wedges by using a long piece and screwing it (countersunk flat head screws) to a piece of scrap aluminum. Then I angled it in the vise to cut and slot it. Making them worked fine but they still bent when trying to remove a stuck arbor from an Albrecht chuck. Wedges suck!


That's a good set and for $126.00 plus free shipping, awesome! Thanks


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## coffmajt (Mar 18, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> Cool. The problem with Jacobs wedges is that they don't last for more than a few removals until the bend or brake.
> How did the heat treatment work in keeping your wedges straight?  Did you use them more than once?


I got them hard enough that a file skates across the surfaces without leaving a mark. Absolutely no bend or dings when using them--Jack


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## EmilioG (Mar 18, 2017)

coffmajt said:


> I got them hard enough that a file skates across the surfaces without leaving a mark. Absolutely no bend or dings when using them--Jack



How did you heat treat? Could you explain in detail your procedure?
Thanks


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## mikey (Mar 18, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> That is how Royal removes the arbor from their 1 piece chucks.  The knurled ring on the integral chuck is removed with a bearing separator.
> You just need the correct size.  A small one.  The Albrecht removal tool is handy because you can remove the chuck from it's arbor while on the machine.,
> otherwise, it could be held in a vise with a wood block or aluminum clamp.  I did it this way once using a piece of mahogany, with the arbor in the wood block held with a vise.  The wood blocks work just as well as aluminum.  As long as your arbor has a shoulder.  Only Jacobs chucks that have a pre-existing hole or pre drilled body hole
> can be punched out.  And let's not forget the appropriate arbor press.  The other way is of course, a side drilled hole for a pin to create a shoulder for a removal tool.



Thanks, Emilio. I'll remember your advice. Stuck arbors is a pet peeve of mine.


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## coffmajt (Mar 18, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> How did you heat treat? Could you explain in detail your procedure?
> Thanks


With any chrome moly based steel I use my ox-act torch to heat the material (supported on firebrick) to a red-orange color (looking for more than 1800F) and then drop the hot piece into a oil bath (old 30w motor oil seems to work OK) for quenching.  Once it is cool, I clean the part with 220 grit shop abrasive cloth till it is somewhat clean, then use the torch to carefully reheat it until I see a straw color developing, then back in the oil.  I  try for a 400F to 500F temper to increase the toughness of the material that has just been quenched.  This has worked well for me so long as the part is not so massive that distortion will become a concern. == Jack


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## EmilioG (Mar 19, 2017)

Thanks. Have you done any inspection of the HT parts before and after? I'd be curious to know if the heated parts still retain their shape and size.
If the part has a hole, I imagine that you can use pin gages. Thank you for sharing your process.


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## JimDawson (Mar 19, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> Thanks. Have done any inspection of the HT parts before and after? I'd be curious to know if the heated parts still retain their shape and size.
> If the part has a hole, I imagine that you can use pin gages. Thank you for sharing your process.



It really depends on the material.  Some steels will grow a thou or two per inch, some retain their size very well.  D2 will grow a bit and the holes get a bit tighter, but A2 and O1 are pretty stable.


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## coffmajt (Mar 19, 2017)

EmilioG said:


> Thanks. Have you done any inspection of the HT parts before and after? I'd be curious to know if the heated parts still retain their shape and size.
> If the part has a hole, I imagine that you can use pin gages. Thank you for sharing your process.


I can't give an exact answer but I have made some tapping guide blocks that had 7 holes drilled for various size taps that I used the same heat and quench method on (but I left them full hard like a drill bushing) with no distortion-- Jack


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