# Do you own your home? Do you wish you did?



## Janderso (Nov 24, 2021)

I'm asking the question because of the financial benefits that can be had buy investing $500,000 rather than putting it into your property.
I've heard rich people don't own anything. They let the banks own assets to keep the cash invested in securities, funds, business ventures etc.

Without getting personal, I'm asking if you would rather make money on funds that you could put into a home.
We love not having a mortgage but I can't shake the fact that we could double (if properly invested) every 5-7 years.
On the other hand, real estate has done very well but the only way you can have access to the money is by selling the home or by taking out a mortgage.

Tough decisions.
Thanks for your opinions.


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## higgite (Nov 24, 2021)

Janderso said:


> We love not having a mortgage but I can't shake the fact that we could double (if properly invested) every 5-7 years


Your crystal ball is better than mine.   

Tom


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## pdentrem (Nov 24, 2021)

People I know are remortgaging their paid for house and investing in dividend paying stocks which will cover the payments and more, plus capital growth over the long term. Wish I had done this 20 years ago.
Pierre


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## benmychree (Nov 24, 2021)

Our investments are not making much money these days, why make money for a landlord?


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## Lo-Fi (Nov 24, 2021)

Mortgages are cheap. About the cheapest money you can get. Take some inflation into account and (at the current crazy low interest rate), it's almost free. For what it's worth, the FIRE movement misses this completely, and to it's own detriment. 
I just bought myself, got a 5 year fixed deal that I think (hope) should be long enough to ride out the crazy times ahead.
Things on my mind for the next few years (I'm assuming a moderate to high level of inflation):

Cash is a bad investment during times of high inflation. It's value decreases as it sits under your mattress
Debt, assuming a low, fixed rate, can be good. The real value of the debt decreases just the same as cash, but in your favour. 

It's discussed here in brilliant detail, and I think answers almost what you're looking for. 






In short: get a _good_ mortgage, invest the rest wisely. Putting down a decent deposit so you get good loan to value ratio will get you a good rate.

Just the humble opinion of a random guy on the internet, of course! 
Another key thing for me is I'm not at the mercy of a landlord that might decided they want to sell the property out from under me or raise the rent sky high, forcing me to move my shop (again). Take a look at Tom Lipton on YouTube lately... The mortgage is the lesser of two evils there too!


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## rabler (Nov 24, 2021)

I do own my home.  Only thing I owe the bank is a credit card that gets paid off every month.
I also manage my retirement portfolio, and have done quite well in the last few years since rolling it all out of the company plan.  Frankly, better than working on a yearly basis.  But that can easily change.

The problem with mortgaging the house to cover investments, is that the mortgage/rent is still due even if the market tanks.  And the market will tank at some point, not that it won't recover again.  But if it tanks and you have to pull money out to pay the mortgage/rent, that money is hard to win back.   And it is VERY difficult to ride out a downturn, instinctively you want to pull it out as cash. 

On the other hand if the house loses 1/2 it's value, it's still the same home.  No lose of utility to me.


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## Steve-F (Nov 24, 2021)

Paid house off 15 years ago and not going back:<)


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## Just for fun (Nov 24, 2021)

We own our property and it's paid for.  I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 24, 2021)

Houses and property are REAL investments . I've rented my little rancher out for 28 years . I've made money on it and I still own it . My original investment of 71K is now valued at close to 300K . I own my now house outright also . I don't view it as an investment but rather a place to sleep but the value since owning is up 300% . Still , I don't view either house as investments . I own 45 acres up in the Adirondacks . Paid in full . Taxes are steep , but worth the effort needed for my outdoor therapy . I keep money in liquid cash accounts for dry powder to add the my S&P accounts if and when they tank . If the entire market crashes , I still have the land and both houses , with additional cash to add to the stock funds . Don't know if this answered your question Jeff , but my answer would be to stay diversified as we don't know what the future holds .

When I say liquid assets . I have a liquid account that gets 5-8 % every year . I have accounts that get $hit yearly . It's all play money but it is my cushion .


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## woodchucker (Nov 24, 2021)

I own my own home. We decided to buy a small house, rather than be home rich and cash poor.
I paid for my sons college because of that. I told him when he was young, you get the grades and I'll pay for college.
I didn't know how high college would be. But I kept my promise.

We paid off our mortgage in I think 2016... 
I don't have to worry about mortgage , rent ... just paying taxes (which are lower because of the size of the house), food, auto expenses, health insurance and expenses. Everything else is gravy.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 24, 2021)

This is the reason I never sold my rancher . I would be happy living back down there with a shop nestled back into the climate controlled basement . With the money saved in expenses each year , I would be living the king's life .


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## woodchucker (Nov 24, 2021)

pdentrem said:


> People I know are remortgaging their paid for house and investing in dividend paying stocks which will cover the payments and more, plus capital growth over the long term. Wish I had done this 20 years ago.
> Pierre


My Opinion: 
I would not do that. I don't believe in losing your home for an investment.
I would keep the house paid off, and if you want to invest, take extra money and invest.  Things are such a mess right now, I believe we are headed for a major fall again. Stocks are not matching what is happening out there.  It's ok to be out there in my opinion with extra money, but not the house... Don't bet the house on it.

Our govt doesn't believe in paying their bills, but I do. I owe nothing.. I guess I am old fashioned. I've never run up a credit card, if I couldn't pay it off this month, I didn't buy it.  I know that's not how everyone does it, it's how I do it.

I've known people who don't work, who have way more than I do. One lived on SS after he lost his leg while drunk driving... he owned every new items (new cell phone..latest and greatest), new TV when plasma came out, he got the biggest... I didn't understand it.. Then I found out he hadn't paid taxes in years and they were coming after him..

I can sleep at night (well I wish I could.) (figuratively).


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## FOMOGO (Nov 24, 2021)

My liquid assets are 3 cases of Modelo, and 1/2 gal. of George Dickel. All kidding aside, we own 5 homes outright, and realestate has accounted for most of are wealth gain. We do have investments in the market, and retirement accounts, but I've always preferred things I can see and touch. We are in the process of selling off several properties just so I don't have to deal with them anymore, and will have to decide where to put the money, but there are worse problems to have. Always keep enough cash on hand for 2 years of regular expenses. For me debt was always something to be avoided, unless it was for business growth in good economic times. Mike


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## mmcmdl (Nov 24, 2021)

My motto ..........................................always leave yourself an easy " out " .


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## Stonebriar (Nov 24, 2021)

How would you like to move into your new rented shop/house and the next lease the rent goes up 40%. Not a lot of fun moving a machine shop of tools. That's why OX tool moved.


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 24, 2021)

You really need to understand the economic cycle.  People who mortgaged the house and invested in 2009 did very well, those who did it in 1999 went broke.  We are 11+ years into an up cycle that typically lasts 7 years due to the additional printed money by the Fed.  Be careful with assumptions.  Rich people got rich by using debt to finance income producing or appreciating assets, not by acquiring personal use assets that cost money to operate.  Also keep in mind that more than half ( 70-80% ) of those who invest underperform the market.  Saving habits account for more wealth than investment choices.  Dave


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## mmcmdl (Nov 24, 2021)

FOMOGO said:


> My liquid assets are 3 cases of Modelo, and 1/2 gal. of George Dickel.





FOMOGO said:


> We are in the process of selling off several properties just so I don't have to deal with them anymore, and will have to decide where to put the money,


Mike , if it were me ....................................I would re-invest in your liquid asset funds .


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## matthewsx (Nov 24, 2021)

We own two homes (actually the bank owns part of them but not so much we couldn't pay them off tomorrow if we wanted)

The thing I always come back to is you can't live in a mutual fund and you can't rent out your 401K

John


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## Janderso (Nov 24, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> I keep money in liquid cash accounts for dry powder to add the my S&P accounts if and when they tank


I like it!


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## Janderso (Nov 24, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> My Opinion:
> I would not do that. I don't believe in losing your home for an investment.
> I would keep the house paid off, and if you want to invest, take extra money and invest. Things are such a mess right now, I believe we are headed for a major fall again. Stocks are not matching what is happening out there. It's ok to be out there in my opinion with extra money, but not the house... Don't bet the house on it.


You know, the more I ponder this,  the prudent thing to do is sit out this next stock market adjustment and wait for the housing market to settle then make a decision.
It's hard to throttle back when we have properties coming via email almost daily that look promising.
I think if the perfect house came up we would still go see it.

The video was very interesting.
We've all seen small investments left alone balloon over time. 
Having money in the bank and a solid investment portfolio that is very diversified to weather any hick-ups does make one feel safe.


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## Nogoingback (Nov 24, 2021)

Janderso said:


> We love not having a mortgage but I can't shake the fact that we could double (if properly invested) every 5-7 years.


I don't know what rate of return you assume for investments, but finding an investment that allows you to double your
money every 5 years not realistic.  Investment returns are proportionate to risk: the higher the return the higher the risk.
The first rule of investing is to avoid losses, because they tend to happen fast and can wipe out years of saving and
investing.  At your age, you don't have time to recover from losses from risky investments.  As someone pointed out,
you have to live somewhere, and owning a home is more than a purely financial decision:  it provides security.  When
I was working, my job required me to pass a medical exam every six months.  If I couldn't pass the exam my career was
over.  So, I had my first house payed off as soon as possible so that if I lost my career, all I had to do was pay the taxes
until I could get working again.    Owning a modest home that doesn't cost too much and then investing in conservative
funds is probably a good plan.  You should find a good financial advisor to discuss this stuff with.


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## Janderso (Nov 24, 2021)

Nogoingback said:


> I don't know what rate of return you assume for investments, but finding an investment that allows you to double your
> money every 5 years not realistic.  Investment returns are proportionate to risk: the higher the return the higher the risk.
> The first rule of investing is to avoid losses, because they tend to happen fast and can wipe out years of saving and
> investing.  At your age, you don't have time to recover from losses from risky investments.  As someone pointed out,
> ...


Good advice.


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## Aaron_W (Nov 24, 2021)

You have to factor in rent since you need a place to live. We paid off the house last year, so now just upkeep and property taxes. There are not many comparable houses for rent locally, but based on what is out there rent would be somewhere between $2000 and $5000/mo. I'm pretty happy paying my under $200/mo for property taxes instead.

Personally even if it hadn't been ingrained in me that owning your home is a must, I wouldn't be able to take the uncertainty of rent fluctuations at the whim of a land lord. I've seen more than one business up and move, or just close up shop when the land lord raised the rent an unsustainable amount. Housing usually have more limits in increases, but when I was younger I helped a number of people move after their rent went up and they couldn't afford the increase.

Then there is the landlord to deal with. Hobby machining is high on the list of hobbies that do not go well with renting.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 24, 2021)

Jeff , I'm going thru a very similar situation at home this very moment . More to come .


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## Larry42 (Nov 24, 2021)

Just for fun said:


> We own our property and it's paid for. I wouldn't have it any other way.


I think it's a wash. If I had invested the $ I paid for the house, taxes and maintenance I could now have a lot more tools.


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## pdentrem (Nov 24, 2021)

The other way I have seen, is to invest a part of ones line of credit. That way one will not be over extended and a LofC is never the whole value of the residence.

There will always be drops, and no one can time that! Been steadily investing since ‘86 and have never stopped. Yes suffered downs, which are opportunities to buy stocks on sale. Always been dividend payers and quality ones. One cannot live on capital gains as you have to sell the stock to get that cash, while dividends give cash every month for a continuous income stream. Pitfalls of course and GE has been the current dog and got out as soon as they announced their breakup. 

To avoid the worst of a drop is to be well diversified. Use mutual funds, ETF or build your own. 20-30 companies from across the whole market. 
An example of diversity is a company called Main Street with the ticker MAIN. They hold 90 plus companies in many sectors. Another but smaller one is ticker GAIN.

One can not predict the future of the market but *well managed* pension funds invest in stock, bonds and even buy companies to cover their obligations.
Pierre


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## rwm (Nov 24, 2021)

A lot of people put cash in their homes because they are protected from creditors (read plaintiffs.)


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## BGHansen (Nov 24, 2021)

We own ours, cost us around $300K in 1993, paid off in 2010 or 2011.  The wife and I tend to be fairly conservative with our money.

My father-in-law said we were stupid back in around 2000 because we were paying off our house.  "Why do you want to tie up $400K in a roof over your head?  Your kids won't want your house, pull the equity out and enjoy it, let the bank own your house in the end".  They pulled their money out of their home/property and bought what I call a rolling tribute to capitalism:  brand new 2000 MY Prevost 45 ft. motor coach at $850,000.  Yes, it was nice, but I'd question $850K nice. . .   His strategy was to invest heavily in the market and keep 3 years of "spending money" in a bond fund.  "The market will drop, but it always recovers within 3 years".  Well, the market tanked and didn't recover.  They had to sell low to make the mortgage and coach payments.  They were allowed to sell their coach short (yes, they depreciate a lot in a hurry) and avoided bankruptcy.

For us, the wife and I like being in a position of not owing a dime to anyone.  Our place is worth $600K at this point with the property.  We are both retiring in the next few months and will be able to do what we want, when we want, if we want.  The money that wasn't dumped in our house was invested, mostly in the market.  More bragging than anything, but a financial advisor will tell you as a rough rule of thumb to have 10X your salary in your 401K to be comfortable in retirement.  I pulled the numbers for my wife a few months ago when we were at 30X.  Sure, we could have gone a different route and continually pulled equity out of our house, invested it, and maybe be at 50X.  

We tend to be conservative and will have to "get by" with more income per year in retirement, with a paid-off house.  We could have made more, but we never put ourselves in a position where we were at a large risk.  Risk being we would not lose our home, could pay our taxes, and put food on the table.  I never had a sleepless night after the market tanked.  My worst decision was I should have pulled out of my 401K about 10 years ago.  Instead, I should have been taking the tax hit then and invested in a Roth.  We looking at paying higher income taxes in retirement than we have during our working careers.

Bruce


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## mksj (Nov 24, 2021)

As they say it is complicated, and depends on many factors. The investment companies always get their money, but do you. I have put money into 401/403B accounts for 30+ years, and contrary to the money doubling every 7 years, they are worth about 2X what I put into them. I have weathered portfolio drops of 30% and then had to wait many years for it to come back. As you get older you move toward more capital preservation, I may not have another 10 years for it to come back. Hindsight is great, sure I could have invested in the stock market and doubled my money, but for every one person who reaps the highs there are probably 10 people who have paid for it. As you get older your risk factor changes, I have had this discussion with our financial investors for the last 30 years. Sure I want to make more money, but I am 66 my wife is 70, do I really want to risk a big chuck of retirement savings playing the market and waiting another decade for it to come back.

We have always made money on houses and land, but usually it was because we bought at a low and sold at close to a high. So it is a timing game and depends on your income and how fast you can pay it down. I personally think it is foolish to get a 30 year loan and pay almost all interest for the first 15 years. One can also increase payments as wages go up, so you are not paying down the house until you are in the grave. Same goes for 2nd mortgages, in particular people who feel it is free money, my house is worth more. We have also had rental property through the years which helped pay down that house and/or provide an income stream. As we got older we no longer wanted to deal with renters, let alone get shafted by the city of San Francisco, and got out of there.

As you get older and if you have limited income streams, and or not diversified with different sources of income, then I feel owning your house is a much wiser choice then paying 2-3K a month for mortgage/rent on top of all the other costs. There is also comfort in knowing that you owning a house vs. renting. Return on investment for 400K might get you 2-3% these days in somewhat protected investments, 0.4% in a "high yield" savings account. You might be able to go out to dinner once or twice a month on the interest. Stock market, once you are retired is more like Russian Roulette with one blank chamber. My recommendation depends on where you want to live and current housing market prices, if they are high, rent or travel for awhile until the prices go down, and you do not need to worry about interest rates. Last two homes we have owned we came in with cash at times when the market was soft, and we dictated the price/terms. Now, is a bad time to buy a house in many markets, but the feeding frenzy is ebbing, As Dave mentioned if the stock market get the jitters, or takes a tumble, so will the housing market.

Last but not least, one needs to think about inflation over the years, and what that means/impacts you. If you own nothing, you will always be paying more for everything/living expenses which will go up and more than you might expect. If you own everything inflation only impacts those items you need to live on, so food and utilities (energy, water, etc.), as a percentage of total spend the impact of inflation is much less on your run costs as long as you do not spend like crazy on consumer goods. If you own your house, and you plan to stay, then owning the house just eliminates those run costs for years to come. It doesn't really matter as to the value of the house long term, as you plan to stay. Also do not do a reverse mortgage, you will regret it.

We own our house, I have a 9kW solar system, so electricity is paid for and I have enough reserve for and EV if I go that route at some point. We live in north county San DIego, so heating costs are minimal, house taxes are the biggest expense, but at least I know they will stay relatively constant in future years (when we lived in Tucson, AZ they went up 20% in one year). I been driving the same truck for 15 years, and wife owns her car and plans to keep hers for 10-15 years. I do almost all the maintenance and repairs, so we pay for food, gas and water. We have disposable income, but we are not big material consumers. I have multiple sources of income, and if needed I could loose one source and we would still be comfortable and have no worries. Why risk the money in the market at this point, I am more into capital preservation with consistent appreciation at 3-7%.
Mark


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## matthewsx (Nov 24, 2021)

Another thing to think about is parents.  If I had really planned ahead we would have a place with a separate granny flat.


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## Ischgl99 (Nov 24, 2021)

We paid off our house early, and the stress levels have gone down considerably.  I semi-retired by changing careers so that I could be home to take care of the kids, couldn’t do that if we still had a mortgage to pay off.  We considered using the cash we had to pay off the mortgage to invest in the market, but the risk of lose was not worth it.  Paying off a house is about risk mitigation.  When you have a mortgage, or worse a margin account against your home, you are at risk of losing it.  When it is paid off, your expenses are property taxes, which should be manageable.  

The stock market has many unpredictable declines that can wipe you out if you are not careful and investing for the short term.  There are plenty of people on TV showing how well they did, but most people can’t time the market and loose a significant amount of money during the downturns.  The question to ask, can you afford to loose 50% of your investments and still have a house over your head?  I wouldn’t want to try and find a rental in this market, there is nothing available in my town and many people are having to move 45 minutes away just to find an available rental.  Warren Buffet has a famous quote, which I am going to butcher, but basically be fearful when people are enthusiastic about the market.  When people are going all in to the stock market, it is usually the peak, so invest wisely.


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## Just for fun (Nov 24, 2021)

My wife and I have done pretty good with our investment, so we are doing ok.   I couldn't imagen not owning our own place.  I suppose if we lived in the city and didn't have any hobbies that might be a different story.  But we don't live in the city we live in the country and we both have hobbies.  We have a camper, enclosed trailer, a tractor with a few implements and ATVs to play on.  I have truck projects, a shop full of tools, soon to have a mill and a lathe, Ham radio gear and antennas.  My wife has a Donkey (used to have horses but the Donkey lives on) Fruit trees, you name we got it, LOL.  We have a greenhouse with fresh vegetables for the winter.  Nope, renting a place would not work for us.

Tim


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## Larry42 (Nov 24, 2021)

pdentrem said:


> Yes suffered downs, which are opportunities to buy stocks on sale.


Down turns in the market are buying opportunities. You don't lose anything during one if you don't sell. Best time to sell dogs is when the market is up. If the market takes a big drop, jump in with both feet. The ETFs I bought 1 1/2 years ago when the market panicked due to Covid are all up 70%+-.  Bought ETFs because I couldn't decide which stocks were going to be hit and stay down longer. They pay dividends but not real great.


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## Tipton1965 (Nov 24, 2021)

I knew as a young kid that I wanted to own my own home.  I found my old journal that I kept when I was in 9th grade.  It said that one day I wanted to own acreage and a home with a big iron gate and a couple Dobermans guarding everything.  Fast forward to my mid 20's and I was married and we had five acres and a new home.........and a black iron gate with two Dobermans.  We started with bare land and I did all the work myself.  My wife and I worked hard and had the whole place paid off in our mid 30's.  I absolutely love owning my home and property.  My advice to any young person is get the hell out of debt as fast as you can.  Life is so much more enjoyable when you're out of debt and all you have is basic bills.  I have lived a very conservative life but I have no regrets. I find pleasure in the simple things in life. Unless you want to be homeless we all have to live in some sort of shelter.  Why pay the landlords mortgage for them?  My vote is for own your own home.


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## jwmay (Nov 24, 2021)

Borrowing against a paid off house for investing in the stock market is fantastically risky.


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## woodchucker (Nov 24, 2021)

jwmay said:


> Borrowing against a paid off house for invest


were you going to finish that thought?


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## mmcmdl (Nov 24, 2021)

What has happened in the past two days . My son and DIL are down from Canada . He is now duel citizenship . He was informed that his vehicle MUST be exported Canada in order to enter by vehicle . We did the number crunching over the past 4 hrs . For him to import the 4 Runner into Canada was $6000 . Tough pill to swallow eh ? Ain't no friggin way . So we talk about having cash on hand that doesn't pay a yearly % ? So the family discussions have been heated , but I believe we have come to a pretty good conclusion . 

#1 - I co-signed the loan on the 4 runner which makes me the owner 
#2 - I have my 2003 Ford Escape which has brand new engine and trans . 
#3- My son lives in the Stadium ( Blues Jays ) district and drives 4 miles a week . 
#4 - He worked hard for the truck , still loves it , but the payment is $500 a month . Payoff amount is $18K and change .
#5- My son has not worked in Canada because of the different laws regarding OP lincesing . He has passed the test up there but is still awaiting some kind of card .
#6- My plan . I gift the Escape to my son . KBB value is $1400 . Total Canadian Import fees would be $900 tops . Once again , new engine and new trans , ready to go .
#7- I take my available play money , pay the loan off in full . Clear title . 
#8- My son says he would sell the Runner for 31K which is well below the private party selling price . The truck would stay in the states while I did this .
#9- I have 2 Honda CRVs . My wife has never been ecstatic over them as she says she like a higher ride . She was always driving the K5 Blazers way back then .
#10- Numbers crunching . Cash . I pay the $18K loan off in cash . I give my son $13K in cash . I gift the Escape to him and import it to Canada . He would be done .
#11- I own the 4 Runner outright . I sell one of the CRXs and keep the 4 Runner in the family . I think my son would love the chance to inherit it back some day . My wife and I don't drive 5000 miles yearly to work and back , and we'll both be retired next year .
#12- If the 4 Runner would fit the wifes needs , this is the plan . I have my beater Civic which goes to work , and I have the Deisel F250 for my towing trips to the Adirondacks . And I have to downsize in all areas . 


Comments welcome from all . These challenging questions seem to pop up daily now that age is creeping up . It's hard to think about it all because everyone's situations are different .


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## davidpbest (Nov 25, 2021)

I own my home and don’t have a mortgage. Depending on where you live, property values can, and have been generating returns above market indexes.  Such is the case where I live.  Rents seem to be going up even faster, so my best investments have been in residential rental properties.  If you think the “rich people don't own anything” you are badly mistaken.


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## erikmannie (Nov 25, 2021)

@Janderso Are you considering renting?! I would not do this for the sake of my tools & shop. 

It took me 2+ years to set up my shop, & moving my shop (again) would take time & money away from shop time. 

Even if a landlord gives you a 5 year lease, would you want to risk having to move your shop again and again if the landlord raised the rent too much or if he decided to sell?

My advice: set up a stable retirement shop which probably means owning the property. Moving sucks & shop time is good time. 

Be safe & enjoy working in your shop; that’s what I plan to do.


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## gonzo (Nov 25, 2021)

Nothing can compare with the luxury of owning a home and being otherwise debt free.
My rules are----- Avoid paying interest and collect interest from someone else on your assets.
Works for  me.


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## Ultradog MN (Nov 25, 2021)

Don't take investment advice from me as I am not wealthy. Probably not even middle class.
But...
We own a nice 3 br home with a new 4 car garage and have no mortgage.
So our monthly housing expenses are taxes, ins, utilities and maintenance. 
Combined, those costs are less than we would pay for a 1 br apartment here.
I don't think my wife would stay with me if I brought my lathe, mill, welders and grinders into a 1 br apartment.


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## jwmay (Nov 25, 2021)

I own a ten percent stake in my home. The bank owns the rest.  But I'm not in a real hurry to have it paid off. I am also not against renting a place. I believe there's some pretty good research supporting the theory that renting can be cheaper, even over the long term. But I want my kids to have a place to call home. They can sell it when I'm gone. Owning rental property is a good way to earn additional income, if you have the temperament for it. I do not have the temperament for it. So it's W2 income split between investment and living expenses. It is not that hard to do it that way. Invest first. Pay bills second. Live on what's left.
But if I had a half million dollar paid off house, I'd sell it. That, for me, is entirely too much money to be sitting in one house. But depending on where you live, that may be the going rate. I live in a low cost of living area, so that kind of money is probably more than most people here retire with. If you could sell it and buy something for half that money, you could invest a hefty chunk without risking financial ruin. I just really would never, ever, never, ever invest borrowed money. In my mind, it's akin to a payday loan.


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## higgite (Nov 25, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> What has happened in the past two days . My son and DIL are down from Canada . He is now duel citizenship . He was informed that his vehicle MUST be exported Canada in order to enter by vehicle . We did the number crunching over the past 4 hrs . For him to import the 4 Runner into Canada was $6000 . Tough pill to swallow eh ? Ain't no friggin way . So we talk about having cash on hand that doesn't pay a yearly % ? So the family discussions have been heated , but I believe we have come to a pretty good conclusion .
> 
> #1 - I co-signed the loan on the 4 runner which makes me the owner
> #2 - I have my 2003 Ford Escape which has brand new engine and trans .
> ...


Do you own your home? Do you wish you did?

Tom


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## ddickey (Nov 25, 2021)

@Janderso Double every five years? Are you into crypto currencies?


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## Just for fun (Nov 25, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> What has happened in the past two days . My son and DIL are down from Canada . He is now duel citizenship . He was informed that his vehicle MUST be exported Canada in order to enter by vehicle . We did the number crunching over the past 4 hrs . For him to import the 4 Runner into Canada was $6000 . Tough pill to swallow eh ? Ain't no friggin way . So we talk about having cash on hand that doesn't pay a yearly % ? So the family discussions have been heated , but I believe we have come to a pretty good conclusion .
> 
> #1 - I co-signed the loan on the 4 runner which makes me the owner
> #2 - I have my 2003 Ford Escape which has brand new engine and trans .
> ...



Bummer about the cost to bring the truck into Canada.  Sounds like you guys have come up with a plan though. 

The problem, the cost of buying a vehicle up in Canada I believe is also very expensive, so the $6000 bucks may not be all that all out of wack.

If he has dual citizenship way can't he just leave the truck licensed in the USA?

Tim


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## Dabbler (Nov 25, 2021)

Just for fun said:


> If he has dual citizenship way can't he just leave the truck licensed in the USA?


It is a loophole that was closed over 40 years ago.  It amounts to that if your residence is in Canada, and you have a Canadian drivers license, the vehicle is considered a chattel, and must be landed in Canada.  Also the insurance must be Canadian if it is across the border more than a limited time.  You cannot get Canadian insurance on a vehicle in Canada without a Canadian registration- i.e. it must be owned in Canada already.

I know it sounds muddled, but I hope this helps clear up the question


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## mmcmdl (Nov 25, 2021)

Thanks Dab . Very muddled to say the least .


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## Nutfarmer (Nov 25, 2021)

Never speculate with the roof over your head. Invest only in what you know and understand. The big boys control the stock market. Double your money in five years? That sounds like some one who spends too much time in a casino. You have worked too hard for what you have to be gambling with your retirement funds. Property is something that is real. You can see,walk over it,and live in it. That said it can be like an alligator and eat you alive with taxes and expenses if you choose wrong. The people I see enjoying retirement are the ones who have their homes played off and don't have to worry about the roof over their head.


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## Aaron_W (Nov 25, 2021)

Dabbler said:


> It is a loophole that was closed over 40 years ago.  It amounts to that if your residence is in Canada, and you have a Canadian drivers license, the vehicle is considered a chattel, and must be landed in Canada.  Also the insurance must be Canadian if it is across the border more than a limited time.  You cannot get Canadian insurance on a vehicle in Canada without a Canadian registration- i.e. it must be owned in Canada already.
> 
> I know it sounds muddled, but I hope this helps clear up the question



So this sounds like it is essentially to prevent Canadians from crossing the border to buy a car cheaper in the US. Dual citizens or Canadians working in the US just happen to get caught up in it.


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## Just for fun (Nov 25, 2021)

Thanks for the info Dabbler.  I figured it was something that.


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## Dabbler (Nov 25, 2021)

@Aaron_W - You can easily buy a vehicle from the other side, but it will have to be imported if you want to use it from your primary residence.  It jsut costs money.  I know lots of guys that buy used in the 'states and import to Canada.  it just costs money.


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## Alcap (Nov 25, 2021)

I think there are certain times , situations that make renting a good choice . Those that might not be sure where they want to live or can’t find the right house . The housing market might be high where there looking and might wait until it loosens up .Being able to move about the country I guess is another, I’m sure there are many more . Myself I have too many hobbies and such moving only once was a pain . Never knowing if the landlord would sell and have to move once the lease is up . Maybe as I get older and can’t take care of a house a condo will be necessary but for now owning a home is what I’ll be doing . By the way I did a search of what % you need to make to double your $$$ in 5 years and it was around 14% , just a quick look on the Fidelity website and their BlackRock   Equity Index which is close to the S&P 500 both have 13+% for the life of the fund if you don’t mind the ups and downs because there are plenty of downs


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## ddickey (Nov 25, 2021)

That's not as much as I thought it would be but now that I searched I remember hearing about the rule of 72. 72/5 = 14.4%


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## GunsOfNavarone (Nov 26, 2021)

I would love to know the secret to doubling my investments every 5-7 years. I guess that's like playing the lottery...risk reward. I know my 401k is slow and steady, but not making me rich by any stretch of the imagination.
I will say, I live in Colorado and in the last 10 years property values have sky rocketed, to the point it's like California here. If you don't already own a home, you never will (except for people very well off) lower middle class and below are in a tight spot, left with renting crazy high costs ($1800 to $2500 easily.) I bought my house in 96 and it has increased 500k in that time, most of it in the last 10 years. So, depending on where you live and what your age/risk comfort you can afford, home investment maybe a must. I couldn't imagine retiring with a mortgage.


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## Larry42 (Nov 26, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> “rich people don't own anything” you are badly mistaken.


So true. I live in Nebraska where the rich have been buying big ranching spreads.


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## ddickey (Nov 26, 2021)

I think he meant personally own anything.


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## Watchwatch (Dec 26, 2021)

My .02 

I’ll always need a place to live. 

Without getting political. Governments have been known to seize retirement accounts. The stock market can go up or it can go down.

Paying off the mortgage is the safest bet. Maybe not the smartest move. I’m paying off my mortgage and put money into my 401k for tax purposes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woodchucker (Dec 26, 2021)

Watchwatch said:


> My .02
> 
> I’ll always need a place to live.
> 
> ...





I have not seen them seize retirement accounts, I have seen them use property forfeiture to seize property, and cash on hand.


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## tq60 (Dec 26, 2021)

Of you Are government employee and screwed up they may take pension.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## Larry42 (Dec 27, 2021)

Real estate has been a good investment for me BUT it is a PIA to manage! I've always done all my own maintenance. Once the payments end the property rent is nice but as it ages it needs more maintenance and as I age so do I. 
Long term the stock market is good but few private investors seem to do really well. In many ways the stocks are like rental properties. As inflation raises valuations the companies typically raise dividends. In 8 years the price has typically doubled and so has the dividend. But your original cost is static. The dividends you get will look double what it had been but that's partly because of inflation. It is rare for inflation to exceed the increasing price of most equities. Therefore the dividend even after taking into account the looses due to inflation gets better with time. Compounding is very powerful.


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## davidpbest (Dec 27, 2021)

Larry42 said:


> Compounding is very powerful.


Albert Einstein once described compound interest as the “eighth wonder of the world.”


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## Forty Niner (Dec 27, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I'm asking the question because of the financial benefits that can be had buy investing $500,000 rather than putting it into your property.
> I've heard rich people don't own anything. They let the banks own assets to keep the cash invested in securities, funds, business ventures etc.
> 
> Without getting personal, I'm asking if you would rather make money on funds that you could put into a home.
> ...


Many rich people got rich through their real estate investments.  Buying a home is a real estate investment.  I have bought each home that I have lived in and each time the return on investment far surpassed the amount of gain I could have had in other investment strategies.  Just now I have bought a home and sold a home and the strategy remains.  My opinion is buy the home.  And buy it with cash.  That is what I have been successful doing.  Mortgages take the money from you and make money for others.


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## slow-poke (Dec 29, 2021)

We own, no mortgage, paid cash. Up here in the crazy Canadian housing market (who knows when the bubble will burst) house prices have been going up at insane rates for way longer than I anticipated. Prices up 30-40% in the last year or so. When things are normal it might make more economic sense to rent however for someone like me with a lab and a machine shop in the basement renting is not a practical option.

About 3 years ago the prices in Toronto (where we were living) were growing at a crazy rate, a house that I paid $200k for was selling for over $1M 15 years later with most of that appreciation in the last few years.

we noticed that most the sales were to foreign buyers and they were leaving the houses vacant. We were planning to move to another city in a couple of years and thought we should cash out while the prices were so high. We spoke to an agent and she told us she could likely get us an “investment buyer” that would allow us to continue living in the house for reduced rent. So wiithin days we had an offer of 1.65M, with the option to rent for $1 per month for up to 3 years but we we’re responsible for lawn maintenance. We took the deal, stayed for almost 3 years, happily cutting the grass while are new landlord paid the taxes, replaced the furnace etc. Apparently our landlord purchased over 100 houses in the Toronto area within a year or so.

With cash in the bank and time on our side we were able to research neighbourhoods in the city we were moving to and find an ideal house, we put letters at about 10 houses that were not actually for sale and ended up doing a private sale on one of them. The owners were both lawyers so they were comfortable not using an agent, they were also quite informed about actual selling prices so the negotiations were short and easy. This is the second house we purchased without an agent.

When this crazy housing market blows up it’s going to be really really bad.


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## woodchucker (Dec 29, 2021)

Investment buyers are destroying things.
They make it so that some communities are emptying out.
People sell for the deal, and no one comes in.. you had a great deal where you could live there.  Many don't do that.
I saw a road where 30 houses were empty, and one couple was left..  That's just crazy.

I don't know what they are thinking.. A lot of the investors are not even from the same country, the shell company they set up is.

I don't know where this is going, but it can't be good.


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## tmenyc (Dec 29, 2021)

My wife and I have rented one apartment since 1978. Crazy, you think? Yes, for sure, almost everywhere but where we live, which is in Greenwich Village in New York City. We moved to NYC in 1978, took this nice 2 bedroom apartment at the edge of what we could afford then, and since then, thanks to NYC's rent control rules, it has done nothing but get relatively, and progressively, cheaper than any other option. Purchase prices anywhere we wanted to live have always far outstripped our means, and we have never been willing to leave an area we love just to own. Our rent, in 43 years, is now 3.5 times it was then, but is around 1/3 of market rent for a similar apartment in one of America's most desirable locations and is far cheaper than purchasing or paying property taxes directly. This situation has enabled both of us to have long careers in the nonprofit arenas and to put two daughters through private colleges without financial aid or loans, and for us to have our assets managed professionally with a lot greater flexibility than being tied up in real property. And, with the girls long gone but now living within a half hour subway ride in Queens, their childhood bedroom is now my shop! 

Happy new year, everyone, be well!
Tim


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## 7milesup (Dec 29, 2021)

I have always told the wife that I would rather live in a trailer house in the middle of the woods than rent anything.   I was 28 when we bought our first house.  It wasn't much of a house, but it was where we raised our daughters and it became home.  15 years later we built just a few miles away from our first house and moved up to 1.5acres (woohoo! LOL).   In 2019 we bought 22 acres on a large-ish river and built our dream home (and my dream shop).  If I sold it today, it would be worth at least $200k more than what I built it for.  I will be making payments on this house for 11 more years, but I don't care because the interest rate is so low.
There is more to life than seeing how much money you have at the end.  I lost my brother when he was 58 and a good friend when he turned 64.  I nearly got killed in 2020 from a tree falling on me.  I am going to be fiscally responsible, but I am also going to enjoy my life because there is no guarantee that I will be here tomorrow.

EDIT:  The not renting was not directed at you Tim at all, it's just that my post is below yours... LOL.


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## mmcmdl (Dec 29, 2021)

7milesup said:


> I have always told the wife that I would rather live in a trailer house in the middle of the woods than rent anything.


Personally , I would rather live in a tent in the woods . Period


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## tmenyc (Dec 29, 2021)

Neil, I put my story there because I enjoy the diversity on this board, never better manifest by the range of our stories!

all best,
Tim


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## 7milesup (Dec 29, 2021)

tmenyc said:


> Neil, I put my story there because I enjoy the diversity on this board, never better manifest by the range of our stories!
> 
> all best,
> Tim



Absolutely!

Happy New Year!


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## jeremiahquellette (Jan 24, 2022)

I have always said and will always say that buying your place is much more profitable and better than renting.


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