# Boyar-Schultz 612



## ddickey (Sep 15, 2018)

Where does this grinder fit in as far as quality and desirability?


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## Bob Korves (Sep 15, 2018)

Boyar-Schultz is the Chevrolet of surface grinders.  Lots of them were made and they do the job, good machines.  Boyar-Schultz has long been out of business, so the used machines we look at are a mixed bag of careful use, abuse, lots of wear, or very little wear.  A surface grinder needs to be carefully inspected, including under power, to determine it's condition.  Having someone along with you who really knows surface grinders is a huge asset when you go shopping.  The difference between a nice used machine and scrap metal is usually not noticeable at all to a newbie.

The other issue is that surface grinders used in a commercial setting are often run until they are used up, then rebuilt if it makes financial sense.  If not, they are scrapped or sold to clueless newbies at a higher price.

There is no commercial parts support at all for most used surface grinders, and when parts are available, they are often quite expensive.  Commercial spindle repair is quite expensive, if available at all for old machines.  If buying one, know how to inspect it, and consider your skills and limitations before bringing it home.  Verify all claims...


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## ddickey (Sep 15, 2018)

I'll definitely make sure it's in good shape. 
For $1800 asking price it should be. One hub included so that is a slight disappointment. I'm only shopping and in no hurry as I have a small surface grinder at the moment but would like something larger.
So if Boyar-Schultz are the Chevy's what are the Caddy's?


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## Bob Korves (Sep 15, 2018)

Mitsui, Parker Majestic, Okamoto, Brown & Sharpe Micromaster, Harig, Chevalier, Reid, for home shop size machines, probably missed some.  Then, too, some people like Mercedes better than Caddy's.  In the used market, any brand can be junk, and any brand can be quite usable, depending on condition, condition, and condition.  Some have the handles on the opposite sides, and things like that are personal preference.  Since you have a surface grinder already, you can take your time and be a whole lot more picky.


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## Dabbler (Sep 15, 2018)

Bob's completely right!  I got my Brown and Sharpe 612 at a good price, but not before they ran it a year without lubrication.  Lucky me, they got a CNC grinder to replace it before it was all used up.  It needs tender loving care, but it has good accuracy.  For my limited use, I'll never wear it out.

The way I inspected the grinder is that I brought a 1" X 2" X 3/4" coupon of hardened 4140 (SPS) steel, and ground it both sides and measured it.  The perfect test is a 5 block test, but most people don't have the patience to let you do that. The piece was withing 2 tenths with no lubrication or coolant.
To me, that means the bones of the machine were OK  - I of course looked at the lead screws, felt the backlash, etc

BUT if the bearings are noisy, just walk away.  It takes a very good millwright to rebuld the spindle and get it right.  Easier to pass and buy a machine in better condition.

For $1800, I'd only buy it if it has been checked over by a good grinder hand, and passes the 5 block test.


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## pdentrem (Sep 15, 2018)

Check for backlash on the in and out feedscrew. It is the most critical part on the machine. If there is too much slop when feeding the table in, not left to right, then you have to make a choice. The feedscrew for the head is always under load so backlash there is not an issue, nor the left/right feeds. We are scrapping out our B&S unit shortly as those lead screws are Unobtainium!


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## vtcnc (Sep 15, 2018)

5 block test? Is that a block on each corner and one in the center of the chuck? 

I imagine that even if that passed the thickness test, the machine could still be out of whack, i.e., bad spindle. Am I understanding this correctly?


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## Cadillac (Sep 15, 2018)

vtcnc said:


> 5 block test? Is that a block on each corner and one in the center of the chuck?
> 
> I imagine that even if that passed the thickness test, the machine could still be out of whack, i.e., bad spindle. Am I understanding this correctly?



Yes your right. It gives you a good indication of the table and saddle.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 15, 2018)

vtcnc said:


> 5 block test? Is that a block on each corner and one in the center of the chuck?
> 
> I imagine that even if that passed the thickness test, the machine could still be out of whack, i.e., bad spindle. Am I understanding this correctly?


The five block test is to see if the machine and chuck as configured will grind five blocks to the same thickness in five maximum spread locations on the chuck.

None of that is about surface finish from a bad spindle.  Only one block is needed to see that problem.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 15, 2018)

pdentrem said:


> If there is too much slop when feeding the table in, not left to right, then you have to make a choice.


Pierre, please define "too much slop" and tell us what problems that causes.


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## pdentrem (Sep 16, 2018)

When moving the part in and out and trying to hit against a shoulder, one does not need to be fighting a ton of backlash. Our current B&S has been causing problems in making tooling as the table moves in and out uncontrolled while feeding from left to right. Gibs are set tight but to no avail. We took a look at the leadscrew and the center section is so worn that the thread is now more like a standard 60 degree instead of acme. Near 0.050”! The brass nut has nothing left to give as the adjustment will not allow smooth action from end to end of the leadscrew. We have been searching for a less worn or NOS but there is nothing out there. We have looked at replacing with a ball screw which would work as the lead screw is protected fairly well from the grinding dust. It is just more economical to find a newer or new machine. 

The magnetic chuck has to be ground flat if it has been removed and put back, otherwise it may not hold size across the whole surface.


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## Dabbler (Sep 16, 2018)

There are a bunch of things that work together to get accurate grinding out of any SG. The ways have to be tight, the saddle has to move back and forth without much sideways slop, the spindle has  to be smooth, the motor has to run without too much vibration (and add many more to this).

On the minus side, there are many things that could destroy accuracy.  a non-flat chuck.  burs on the chuck,.  grinding dust under the part.  Poorly dressed wheel.the wrong hardness of wheel for the material.  Ohmigosh - add many more here...)

Now all that being said, most grinders can easily achieve a half-thousands of an inch easily, even in inexperienced hands.  The closer your tolerance, the harder it is to achieve.  To hold a part to 20 millionths, for example, takes a lot of fussing by a very experienced hand. (not me)


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## Janderso (Sep 16, 2018)

I know nothing about a surface grinder. 
They work in an abrasive environment from day one, it’s hard for me to imagine a machine that wasn’t worn out after considerable use.
If I ever find one, I would want someone that knows what to look for to accompany me.
There are some Boyar Schultz grinders around, I was not aware parts are not available.
Are there any, “safe” brands to consider in the event parts are required?
I can see how new Taiwan made grinders may be a viable option.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 16, 2018)

pdentrem said:


> When moving the part in and out and trying to hit against a shoulder, one does not need to be fighting a ton of backlash. Our current B&S has been causing problems in making tooling as the table moves in and out uncontrolled while feeding from left to right. Gibs are set tight but to no avail. We took a look at the leadscrew and the center section is so worn that the thread is now more like a standard 60 degree instead of acme. Near 0.050”! The brass nut has nothing left to give as the adjustment will not allow smooth action from end to end of the leadscrew. We have been searching for a less worn or NOS but there is nothing out there. We have looked at replacing with a ball screw which would work as the lead screw is protected fairly well from the grinding dust. It is just more economical to find a newer or new machine.
> 
> The magnetic chuck has to be ground flat if it has been removed and put back, otherwise it may not hold size across the whole surface.


Thanks for the reply, Pierre.  My B&S 2L from 1946 likely has the original Z axis (carriage toward and away from the column) lead screw.  It looked really nice after carefully cleaning it and the nut when putting it back into service.  Backlash in that axis is .040+" on the .250"/rev dial.  That does not seem to cause any problems so far, though I have done little work against a shoulder, and that work was light.  What should I be looking for?


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## Bob Korves (Sep 16, 2018)

Janderso said:


> I know nothing about a surface grinder.
> They work in an abrasive environment from day one, it’s hard for me to imagine a machine that wasn’t worn out after considerable use.
> If I ever find one, I would want someone that knows what to look for to accompany me.
> There are some Boyar Schultz grinders around, I was not aware parts are not available.
> ...


Parts for surface grinders from defunct companies are rarely available new, and used parts off another machine may be better or worse than what you have already.  Getting parts for even newer Chinese machines is often a crap shoot, often taking lots of time and frustration, the replacement parts not fitting at all or an incorrect part finally delivered.  More respected Asian brands like Jet and others (mostly Taiwan made) that have been in business for decades seem to do a much better of servicing what they sell, but their parts are not cheap, and can still take time and effort to get the correct part in your hands.  And obsolete machines also often have obsolete parts, even with the best companies, a business reality.  But, we are machinists and often not just parts changers.  With sometimes significant time and effort, we can make many of the parts we need.  Machine tool reconditioning in our shops is quite possible, but does have a significant learning curve to be able to completely rehab a machine to working, like new, or even better standards.  Some people love to rehab old machines, other just want to make parts on them.  Look yourself in the mirror and have a sober conversation with yourself on what you hopefully might be able to achieve and what you might _actually_ achieve.  Be honest with yourself.  I see lots of carcasses of old machines sitting around partially disassembled and gathering dust in hobby machinist shops.  "Some day soon" can be a long time -- or never...


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## wlburton (Sep 16, 2018)

ddickey said:


> I'll definitely make sure it's in good shape.
> For $1800 asking price it should be. One hub included so that is a slight disappointment. I'm only shopping and in no hurry as I have a small surface grinder at the moment but would like something larger.
> So if Boyar-Schultz are the Chevy's what are the Caddy's?


If you ever do buy a larger one and decide to sell the Sanford let me know.
Bill


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## Dabbler (Sep 16, 2018)

> Are there any, “safe” brands to consider in the event parts are required?
> I can see how new Taiwan made grinders may be a viable option.



A quick note professional firms like Suburban Tool tend to have a lot of Reid and Chevalier grinders, but prefer to rebuild them rather than buy new.  A gear manufacturer near me has bought all the very old 24" shapers it can find, in order to rough gears quickly.  There's a reason for that.  the older castings are 'real' Meahinite (I think I spelt it wrong - sigh) instead of the poorer quality cast iron available today. Those old machines can be rebuilt almost forever, and hold accuracy well when used right.

So an obsolete grinder in today's shop might very well do anything you will want to do in your lifetime.  It is just there are a few bad apples that will claim they are great when they are not rebuildable.  Buying new is expensive (more than double the cost of a good used one) and is almost as risky. I would be wary of the current crop of cheaper grinders - they weigh half to a third of the old iron, so they are less rigid and have far less 'reaction mass'.  That mass helps to reduce the effect of vibration and impact of the wheel itself.  Lighter machines in general have worse finish and harder-to-achieve accuracy.

Take heart - there is a grinder out there for you!  Keep looking.  Another strategy is to visit a shop a week, and ask the forman if they have a grinder that is not being used.  Mine came from a shop where it it had been 'sidelined' in favor of a CNC grinder.  I paid pretty good cash for it, but I'm very happy it's mine.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 16, 2018)

Dabbler said:


> Meahinite (I think I spelt it wrong - sigh)


Meehanite®
https://meehanitemetal.com/


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## Technical Ted (Sep 16, 2018)

I recently picked up a B&S 2B surface grinder that was built ~1935. It had been rebuilt by Pope with an Excell-o cartridge spindle at some point. Looked like a POS when I brought it home. Paid $200 for it, basically scrap value since it weighed over 1400 lbs. Came with a B&S magnetic chuck, one spindle adapter and two wheels (one brand new). I tore it down for complete cleaning. The spindle was 440 V only so I modified it for a single phase 1-HP motor. 

After dusting off the chuck it did the 5 block test and checked them on my surface plate with a tenth's indicator. All were within 0.00015 of each other. Plenty good enough for anything I would need! 

So, sometimes you can find a diamond in the rough!

Good luck in your search,
Ted


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## Dabbler (Sep 16, 2018)

Great find!


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## Grandpop (Sep 16, 2018)

I am not trying to disrespect anyone. I know lots of folks swear by the 5 block test, but it does seem to really tell me anything. Typically the table/saddle are worn near center of travel but not hardly at all on ends of travel, such that the machine is grinding a large radius. Have done the 5 blocks on such machines, and the blocks are the same size. Seems like all the 5 blocks tell you is that the chuck was ground such that it is moving in exact same motion as the table. All the blocks the same size but table still grinding in a large radius. On such a machine you can grind shorter parallel parts, but can't grind anything long straight/flat.

I've always taken a good straight edge and 2 dowel pins. Place the dowels on ends of the chuck, turn on magnet, place straight edge over the dowels. mount indicator on spindle and indicate top of the straight edge while moving table slow and normal speeds. You will see lift at the ends if center of table is worn, or even rocking when you reverse direction.

I don't get too worried about backlash as long as less than about .040. Much more than that you don't have any flats left on the acme screw between threads and it wears fast. All the wheel graduations are telling you is where you last were, so more worried about repeating back to same point, which a worn screw with backlash will do. If you are trying to plunge a second slot 3.0000 over just by using the screw you are not going to have good results on most grinders, even when you have a good DRO.

I personally loved the Mitsui grinders when I ran them full time, but they are expensive used. I could not find one close to me for less than $5k, but I did find a filthy Boyar Shultz 20 miles from my house for $500 with .030 backlash and a bit of a lift in the table. It works good for what I do with it at home.


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## Dabbler (Sep 16, 2018)

The 5 block test is just one of many tests, and the most popular.  For a thorough check out you can take a pair of parallels and grind then along and across the chuck.  The results will tell you a lot about the X and Y ways.  Most vendors won't let you do that much grinding on their machine, however.


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## C-Bag (Sep 17, 2018)

Thanks to all for your input. Very enlightening on several fronts and sobering too. My TAS has had me jones'n for a SG for a while and conversations like this have made me pump the brakes as two likely candidates have popped up locally. 

Both have supposedly (you know how CL is) not been used for production. Appear to be in good shape and both Tiawan made. Both companies are still around. One is a 6x12, the other 8x18. The small one has a "new" mag chuck and is what I would call a hobby machine with no accessories except a heavy duty stand and has dropped into what I call an acceptable price range and appears to be the same as the bottom of the line Grizzley SG so parts would be available I would think. It's also single phase 110/220. But for twice as much ($1200)the 8x18 has accessories, stacks of wheels(diamond included) but is 3ph, which some say is the only way to go. But I have no experience with VFD's. 

This seems to happen often and has made me a deer in the headlights. Bob's "look yourself in the mirror" is a big part of that too as I have no specific project in mind. Only the idea it would cure my need for that next level of accuracy. But this discussion has put that in perspective.


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## ddickey (Sep 17, 2018)

Dabbler said:


> The 5 block test is just one of many tests, and the most popular.  For a thorough check out you can take a pair of parallels and grind then along and across the chuck.  The results will tell you a lot about the X and Y ways.  Most vendors won't let you do that much grinding on their machine, however.


Using a parallel with a DTI would tell you the same as grinding, wouldn't it?
My little Sanford is accurate only with it's 3x5 chuck. Outside of that forget it.


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## C-Bag (Sep 17, 2018)

It took some thought for me to get what Grandpop was getting at. But the long parallel across the X of the chuck and going through the X travel with DTI on the head through the travel would show the shallow arc of a worn ways by a dip in the middle and rises at the ends. I get I repeated him but that is the meat, that you are measuring the whole length. Now how, if the head remains steady it could not show the center middle block as being thicker is something my noob brain can't quite comprehend. But I could run his test a lot quicker than the 5 block when doing the buying inspection. The 5 block would have the advantage of taking a while and therefore a good way to know if the spindle developes noise after it warms up. All tests are good IMHO.


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## Technical Ted (Sep 17, 2018)

Because after dusting the chuck it is ground with a hollow in the center and the middle block will be in that hollow. All blocks will be ground parallel with the hollow in the chuck and therefore the same thickness will result. So, the parallel spanning the chuck will show a gap between the bottom of the parallel and the top of the chuck in the center (if a hollow exists). 

You could also grind something long enough to span the chuck that is too thick to be drawn down in the center by the magnet (if you have a hollow on your machine) and then measure the piece on a surface plate with a tenths indicator and it should show that the ground piece is not flat, but thicker on the ends with the same hollow (low spot) in its' center.

Ted


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## C-Bag (Sep 17, 2018)

But I would think if there is wear in the ways, dusting the mag chuck would make it flat because it is reference to the head. It's staying stationary and the table if it does have wear and making an arc would compensate for the wear arc effectively leaving the chuck thicker in the middle and thinner at the ends. So would this would show as a hump in the middle with a straight edge laying on it?

Also, I've read here in another thread that a chuck should be ground in with coolant? What if the grinder has no coolant tub are whatever you call it?


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## Technical Ted (Sep 17, 2018)

Dusting the chuck will only make the chuck flat if the ways are flat. All it really does is make the distance from the chuck to the grinding wheel the same, but if the ways aren't moving the chuck in a flat plane the chuck will follow the same path as the worn ways and will not be flat. This is true with a mill machine as well, but there it is more forgiving since you're probably not working within tenths of an inch. 

It helps me when I exaggerate things... Think if the ways are like a roller coaster, going up and down. So now your chuck would be traveling up and down with it and as you dust it the grinding wheel will maintain a constant distance between it and the chuck because the spindle is fixed in space. So, it grinds more off the chuck when the ways go up and less when they go down. But, as you can see, the top of the chuck would be a roller coaster ride as well since it is going up and down with the travel on the ways. 

Maybe someone else can jump in and help explain it another way that makes more sense.

Ted


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## Bob Korves (Sep 17, 2018)

Technical Ted said:


> Dusting the chuck will only make the chuck flat if the ways are flat.


Correct!  And the same can be said about the work produced on the machine.

The common problem with both milling machines and surface grinders is that traversing the table puts more pressure on the ends of the ways when the table is near the ends.  The table overhangs the ends of the ways.  As wear accumulates, this causes a gradual changing of the ways from flat to curved, high in the middle.  Assuming that the wear is evenly increased from center to both ends (not exactly true in real life), then as the table goes under the spindle, an indicator will give a steady reading, no movement at all.  That does not also mean the work is being ground or milled flat, all it tells you is that the wear is even along the length of the curve.  The way to find out the real truth is to machine or grind a piece that is the maximum length that the table will traverse, and then check it for flatness on a surface plate.  You may be quite surprised, especially if the indicator under the spindle showed no movement.

The issue can be addressed by using a grinder that does not have the same issue (it has KNOWN flat ways) to grind the worn grinder, or scraping the ways in while referencing them to a known accurate surface plate.


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## Dabbler (Sep 17, 2018)

OK, I'm going to try, but it is very hard for me to explain.  Because the chuck is ground on the machine with the "bad" ways, The DTI on the chuck will always read the same, even if the ways are worn.  The tolerances here are small enough that even if you owned and brought a 12" parallel it is very hard to see the dip or roll off of the chuck under the parallel. You can use the 'wiggle' test on the parallel to see if the chuck is flat, but it won't tell you how much it is out, if it is. - That is, you wiggle one end of the parallel, then the other and both fulcrum points should show 1/3-2/3 in each direction if the chuck is as flat as the parallel

Now this is where it gets interesting:  if the 'banana' of the ways is symmetric, then measuring a parallel on dowel pins won't show much of the actual discrepancy - it would take a lot of measurements to figure out the actual curvature of the ways.  It can be done, with time and patience.

Here's what I learned from my toolmaker friend.  There are about 6 primary points of inaccuracy that can develop in a SG (I  don't think he ever enumerated them for me, but accept there is a lot going on)  Some of the things are X ways low or high in one region;  Y  ways tilted to the direction of movement;  The Z lead screw and ways completely worn out, and therefore the wheel 'bobs' on the surface;  The bearings are shot in the spindle and the wheel lifts when it engages on the surface, making the surface inconsistent; The roller bearings (if any) are worn so that the table is inconsistently supported;  [These are off the top of my head, but there are a lot more...]

 The only *reliable* way to check out a SG is by grinding something, not just measuring something.  For instance, if the ways are worn out in the center and the chuck is reground, the 5 block test will tell a different story than if the ends were low and the center is high.  This might be missed by doing the dowel pin method if the hollow is small enough.  Some machines spend their entire life grinding 2" in X and Y...  You can also miss a small hollow with the 5 block test!

Now If you grind a parallel along the X axis, and one along the Y axis, it is a shortcut to the 5 block test, but you can find out if the ends are low or high, or if the Vee way is lower/higher than the flat way....  After grinding you take an accurate micrometer and measure the ends and center of each parallel.  If all the measurements are the same, then you should be able to do good work on the grinder.  If not, then walk away, unless you know how to rebuild machines and *really* want to.

I would NEVER buy a SG that I haven't spun up and at least ground a hardened coupon on it.  You can learn a lot about it from that test, and without it, you are playing the lottery for your money.  Even if it is really cheap, it might be a gem or totally worthless.

That being said, if you like rebuilding machines, a SG is almost always rebuildable, but not always worth all the work and expense - a different machine (which might be even cheaper) could require much less or no work to run accurately.....

I hope this helps clarify.  No 'test' is definitive - it is just a way to eliminate obvious duds from possible gems.  There are as many tests as there are opinions, these are just mine...


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## C-Bag (Sep 18, 2018)

Thanks Dabbler. Be interesting if either of these two would let me grind a parallel on either machine. Then there's the whole cluster of never have even run a SG before. So how would I know if it's the machine or bad technique? More questions


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## Dabbler (Sep 18, 2018)

The easiest thing to grind is a thin parallel.  Even with a  poorly dressed wheel it is more forgiving than many other things such as soft metal, large surfaces, etc.  It is long enough to forgive 'bouncing' of the wheel if the spindle is loose, but you can still see the ripples on the parallel.  Chinese parallels are hard and cheap, perfect for the purpose.  You have to bring a 1-2-3 block and a clamp to stabilize the parallel and use at least a 1 1/8" parallel to get clearance.

Just use a smooth moderate stroke, about 3 seconds for a 6" stroke, and keep it as consistent as you can.  It takes years to get a great technique, but even the first time grinding you should get pretty good dimensionality.


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## C-Bag (Sep 21, 2018)

Well armed with all this info I went forth to view the two machines. It did make me sound to them like I knew what I was doing and had run a grinder before but I admitted quickly I was not. Both of them SG's were not their thing.

The first was a Chevalier FSG 618 with a stack of diamond and abrasive wheels and several fixtures. I was led to believe they didn't use the machine for production but for me the fist tip off was the X wheel's black powder coat was gone around the rim and was shiny bright. These come solid black and I know from personal experience powdercoat is some tough stuff. Pulled the table and inspected the ways and all the flaking was gone except the very ends. There seemed like wear as there was a ridge about 3/4 up the way and I don't remember seeing the same ridge on the ends. If I had to gues .005 to .008. Admittedly I'm rusty not having done an engine in a while but I used to be pretty good being able to gauge wear by feel. I could have it all wrong as I'm no expert but my spidy sense was going off.

 The spindle seemed quiet and smooth and was told it had new bearings at one time, hmmmm. The rubber to protect the Y ways had been shot for a while and there seemed scoring on the end of the Y ways which didn't sit to well with me either. After looking at the table ways I felt like this had been used far more than the son who was showing me had witnessed and probably the machine was better than my noob senses knew, but I can't knowingly take on another project. The seller was an extremely honest nice guy and at $1000 it's probably worth it to somebody who knows more but I decided it was another project I'm getting too long in the tooth for.


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## C-Bag (Sep 24, 2018)

The second machine was made by Richyoung and like so many PAC rim machines it seems to be a design that was sold by Enco, HF, and now Grizzley. It is a 612 and weighs like 500lbs. Several things made it appeal to me. It also was supposedly not used much and had a new fine pole mag chuck and its down to $600. It has a heavy duty table with plate top and square tube legs. The paint looks good and for a machine made in the late 90's it looked nice. 

It was shocking how easy X moved. Turned out it was ball bearings with a quick look was full of grease. But in going through y travel I saw movement and the y part of the table had like 1/4" of back and forth play! Finally found the gib and it was like with my RF30 having a screw that engages a tapered gib. It looked like the adjustment was backed off all the way and it took I don't know how many turns to take up the play. But it did tighten up and seemed to move with the same amount of drag through the whole y travel with about .015" of play in the lead screw. The z was flaked and looked new, it also went through its travel fine although the rubber dust guard for the Z was totally gone but the lead screw didn't look full junk.

I let the grinder run for a while while I went out and got my TI and known straight edge. The spindle sounded different than the Chevalier as I would expect and the seller thought it sounded great as he's a woodworker. To me there was a little whine that came and went and as it spun down it seemed like the wheel had a little wobble and I was pretty sure the wheel was not dressed as metal machines were not the sellers forte. I was going to test for spindle play and my TI jumped like .005" and thought WTH? When I lifted the wheel there was a clunk of play and I showed the owner and said well I guess I'm outta here as I don't want to rebuild spindles. He texted me back later and said the wheel hub had come loose and he tightened it up and no more play. My problem is where do I go from here? The chuck has never been ground in as it's beyond the seller or my experience, so how would I even get a clue as to how I could even judge if this thing is worth it or not? He's asking $600 and it has nothing with it, no hub puller, no spare parts and only the wheel that's on it which who knows what it is.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 24, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> The second machine was made by Richyoung and like so many PAC rim machines it seems to be a design that was sold by Enco, HF, and now Grizzley. It is a 612 and weighs like 500lbs. Several things made it appeal to me. It also was supposedly not used much and had a new fine pole mag chuck and its down to $600. It has a heavy duty table with plate top and square tube legs. The paint looks good and for a machine made in the late 90's it looked nice.
> 
> It was shocking how easy X moved. Turned out it was ball bearings with a quick look was full of grease. But in going through y travel I saw movement and the y part of the table had like 1/4" of back and forth play! Finally found the gib and it was like with my RF30 having a screw that engages a tapered gib. It looked like the adjustment was backed off all the way and it took I don't know how many turns to take up the play. But it did tighten up and seemed to move with the same amount of drag through the whole y travel with about .015" of play in the lead screw. The z was flaked and looked new, it also went through its travel fine although the rubber dust guard for the Z was totally gone but the lead screw didn't look full junk.
> 
> I let the grinder run for a while while I went out and got my TI and known straight edge. The spindle sounded different than the Chevalier as I would expect and the seller thought it sounded great as he's a woodworker. To me there was a little whine that came and went and as it spun down it seemed like the wheel had a little wobble and I was pretty sure the wheel was not dressed as metal machines were not the sellers forte. I was going to test for spindle play and my TI jumped like .005" and thought WTH? When I lifted the wheel there was a clunk of play and I showed the owner and said well I guess I'm outta here as I don't want to rebuild spindles. He texted me back later and said the wheel hub had come loose and he tightened it up and no more play. My problem is where do I go from here? The chuck has never been ground in as it's beyond the seller or my experience, so how would I even get a clue as to how I could even judge if this thing is worth it or not? He's asking $600 and it has nothing with it, no hub puller, no spare parts and only the wheel that's on it which who knows what it is.


I have not run one of those machines, but have read and have been told that they are pretty crude.  Light weight also does not help.  Looking at one closely made me agree.  Also single phase.  My takeaway was that it is difficult to get a good finish with such a machine.  Again, no personal experience running one here.


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## Janderso (Sep 24, 2018)

Gee Wiz you guys. After reading this thread I am wondering if it is possible to find a decent used SG?


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## Bob Korves (Sep 24, 2018)

The real problem is that surface grinders live a tough life in a gritty environment.   They are often ridden hard and put to bed wet.  I searched for a surface grinder for a LONG time and never found a used one that was worth buying at a price I could afford.  I finally got one from benmychree which was not running and had a known bad spindle, so there goes my credibility.  John told me the truth about it as a seller should, and was obviously telling me all he really knew about the grinder.  Sometimes, vetting the seller can be at least as important as vetting the machine...
John passed the test.  And so did the grinder.  It needed just about what I thought it would based on my inspection and on John's honest shared knowledge of the grinder.

There really are a lot of junk surface grinders out there, watch out.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 24, 2018)

I think it is really important to not go out alone looking at machines that we are not qualified to inspect for purchase.  The name for that person is "sucker."  The smart thing to do is to find and befriend somebody(s) who really have the experience and knowledge to evaluate machinery, and take that person with you to look at hopeful candidates.  Not only that, but two sets of eyes and two brains do a better job of inspection, and the extra expert person helps a bunch when it comes time to talk reality about the machine and talk turkey about pricing.  It is also a good way to develop a friendship that carries on way beyond purchasing the machine.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 24, 2018)

Janderso said:


> Gee Wiz you guys. After reading this thread I am wondering if it is possible to find a decent used SG?


The other side of it, Jeff, is that a surface grinder is not really a necessity in nearly all of our hobby shops.  If we keep that firmly in mind, we will not get frustrated and buy junk just before a nice one come on the market at a good price.  Patience!


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## C-Bag (Sep 24, 2018)

I don't have the luxury of having somebody go with me. I wish I did. As a mechanic I can only do my homework and get some understanding of what to look for. A hobby size SG like the second one I looked at I've learned from my Chinese lathe and Tiawanese mill drill that you can take nothing for granted. And even my old Atlas 7b, just 'cause it's old iron doesn't mean it can't have stuff wrong. There is a ton of stuff to take into consideration and the more they want for it, the more I expect it to be perfect. All three machines cost me less than $1200 so I guess you can say I got what I paid for. 

But I see where folks paid $3k for one and found stuff wrong so I'm trading $$ for elbow grease, getting use and projects done. But when you start talking about the leap in precision I'm looking for it's going to take a while to find the right machine. It helps to have a clue thanks to all the stuff I've been able to gather online. 

BTW, there have been threads where folks have said the little grinder was owned by an old toolmaker and made some fantastic stuff with it. So I was willing to treat like my mill drill. There's all kinds of folks decrying the round column and those of us it works just fine for.


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## Technical Ted (Sep 24, 2018)

I think a lot also depends on what type of work you plan on doing on a particular piece of equipment. Yes, sometimes we don't know exactly what we might end up doing, but holding out and waiting for that perfect one at the perfect price might not always be the best idea... sometimes it's best to buy that worn one that will do most of the work you plan on doing for a good price and if later on you need something more you can look for that perfect one and sell the one you started with.

I know everybody's situation is different, but for me I'm retired and enjoy refurbishing machines. I picked up my SG for $200 and if it didn't work out I would have sold off the magnetic chuck and components and sold the machine for scrap (~1400 lbs of CI) and most likely would have at least gotten my money back or more. Is it a perfect machine? No, but so far it's done everything I want it to do and it is running fine and I know I could get several times my money back out of it now if I decided to sell it and get a better one. Also, good work can be accomplished on worn machinery, but it takes more time, patience, ingenuity and finesse. 

So, I'm not suggesting that everyone do the same as I do... only that you should weigh out your situation, time to work on things, what you are planning to do with it and then make a decision what direction to travel.

Good luck,
Ted


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## Dabbler (Sep 24, 2018)

I always use "IF" when talking about SGs.  IF you want to work to millionths (or tenths) then you need a lot of expertise and a good (great?) machine to start with.  Some guys just want to grind to half-thou, and you can do that with a pretty beat up one if you don't mind lapping to get a good surface finish.

It is always nice to buy neat tools, but you really need to have a clear idea in mind of what you are going to DO with the tool after you get it. For instance, if you want to make your own Vee blocks and 1-2-3 blocks, you  can buy good ones a lot cheaper and with less trouble.  

I buy machines to rebuild them.  Then use them to develop skills with.  Sometime later, maybe even make a few things! My tolerance for a crappy machine is pretty high if I can still make a good machine out of it...  So my hobby is more related to millwright than millwork, but it makes me happy!  mine cost $2000 and I've spent 80 or so hours on rebuilding the lube system.  Not finished yet.  When done, the machine will hold to between 15-20 millionths.

BTW  It takes man-years of practice to consistently and predictably grind to 20 millionths.  If you are grinding to the nearest thou, it can be learned in a small number of man-months, or right away if you have related machining skills.

So if you want to rebuild a SG (it can take about a year of sundays) then get a cheap crappy one.  You might even find a good cheap one if you wait ahd look very hard (then is the hobby "looking for a surface grinder"?)  If you want to become a home grinder hand with the bulk of time spent learning how to achieve very tight tolerances, you have to spend the money on a 'great' machine in the first place.  It really is up to you.

Sorry for the 'rant'!


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## Grandpop (Sep 24, 2018)

That Delta/Rockwell style "toolmaker" surface grinder is light weight. For my experience and needs I would rather have a worn heavy duty grinder than a nearly new toolmaker style. But I can fix a lot of things and know a lot of tricks to work to tight tolerance on a worn machine.

That said, I have heard of many that have them and claim them to be reasonably good machines that can hold tight enough tolerance and leave a good finish for home use. If it is decent shape (sounds like it is), I don't see how wrong you can go for the price. If you gain some experience and later want a better one you should be able to get your money back.

Don't worry about grinding the chuck. You can find several youtube videos on that. Hub puller and a hub wrench is about $80 and readily available.

Remember, ANY surface grinder in your shop is better than no surface grinder!


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## Technical Ted (Sep 25, 2018)

I made a puller on my lathe. Pretty simple and easy part to make. And I make a tool for removing my left hand nut on my mill. Another easy one. I just use a standard face spanner wrench removing the hub.

My point is you don't "need" to buy special tools to support your SG.

Ted


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## Technical Ted (Sep 25, 2018)

Here's an earlier post of mine in case you want to make a puller. This is for a standard Sopko type wheel adapter.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/help-with-surface-grinder-wheel-selection.71831/#post-602814

Ted


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## Grandpop (Sep 25, 2018)

I was only suggesting that C-Bag might use the $$ as a bargaining chip if he is interested in the machine. Like Ted, I always prefer to make my own if I have the equipment to do it, but not sure what C-Bag has available.

Also as a reference, I just replaced the cross screw bellows on my Boyar Shultz a couple of weeks ago. McMaster was one of the few that had ones that fit, and they are expensive. Mine was $140 for a single one that extended to 24" that I was able to cut near middle and use for each half of the screw. If I had bought (2) 12" ones from them that would have been over $200 (and I would have had to cut them down anyway).

Either way, buying for $600 and spending some additional known costs for a decent machine, or maybe getting price reduced a little, still does not sound like a bad deal for a starter machine that is close to home.


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## C-Bag (Sep 25, 2018)

I appreciate the input Dabbler, Bob, Ted and Grandpop. Especially for not burying your foot in me for my waffle whining. Or for totally hyjacking this thread. My apologies to the OP.

The small machine is a little different than the Delta/Rockwell in that it has a cast iron mast for the Z axis and no drive belt but direct drive. There are three or four of those type around and even owners I've read admit they are tough to get a nice finish. 3 of the 4 are going for less than $900 one as low as $300. I've only seen one of the Richyoung type and it's a HF, basically new with not even a mag Chuck and he wants $1500.

From what I can gather Richyoung might be the originator of the design like RongFu with that design of mill drill. And while not perfect knock offs seem to have more problems.

I REALLY appreciate your description of using worn machines Grandpop and some of your methods for dealing with it.

OK, please know I'm a noob, but:

My reasons for looking at a SG were first really wanting a set of precision tool room stones and some ground vise jaws. The stones are hard to spring for at $250+ especially when they are basically $30 stones ground on a SG. Like my other machines it starts with one project and as I get more experience more things pop up.


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## Cadillac (Sep 25, 2018)

First I’ve only had my sg and tool grinder about 6 months. Bought the sg unseen at a auction 300 bucks with chuck one arbor and wheel that was on it. With all the tools luckily. My main reason was to get more precise and you can’t beat a surface ground finish. 
 Went through the entire machine including spindle and from what I can measure it’s plenty accurate for my needs. Most of us including me will never get to the capacity of machining and yet measuring in the millionths. So my recommendation is you see one you like. Check it out run a gauge across it, wiggle here and there. Run the spindle. If you like it buy it. I wouldn’t pay a lot just to get a sg. I see them a lot cheaper than 1000 in my neck of the woods. 
 If it’s not up to snuff after playing with it sell it and get your money back. You will have learned a bunch for the next one.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 25, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> I appreciate the input Dabbler, Bob, Ted and Grandpop. Especially for not burying your foot in me for my waffle whining. Or for totally hyjacking this thread. My apologies to the OP.
> 
> The small machine is a little different than the Delta/Rockwell in that it has a cast iron mast for the Z axis and no drive belt but direct drive. There are three or four of those type around and even owners I've read admit they are tough to get a nice finish. 3 of the 4 are going for less than $900 one as low as $300. I've only seen one of the Richyoung type and it's a HF, basically new with not even a mag Chuck and he wants $1500.
> 
> ...


The spindle is the heart of a surface grinder.  Direct drive precision bearing spindles, done correctly, are the best possible setup for home shop size grinders.  Mine is belt drive...  It works, too, but has a lot more stuff that can mess up the work.  A grinder spindle is only as good as the components and care that went into it, and that is when it is new.  They go gradually downhill from there after getting some time on them.  Cheap bearings and quick and dirty assembly equals junk.  High precision bearings and really careful design choices, accurate components, and super fussy assembly makes for a great spindle, but at a high price.  Making a spindle as cheaply as possible to sell the grinder at a low cost will show immediately in the work, and will go further downhill relatively rapidly.  Proper care of the machine by the operators who use it is critical.  Grit is everywhere when a grinder is working, and it is the enemy.  Operating with bad seals, missing dust shields, torn bellows, etc., and poor or nonexistent cleanup is a death sentence to a surface grinder.

About the precision flat stones, PM sent...


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## Dabbler (Sep 30, 2018)

*I've been thinking about this thread a lot over the past few weeks, and I want to add something that , in all our enthusiasm, was missed, at least partially.*

Let me start by saying when I started doing lathe work 40 years ago, my mentor had me buy a Kinnemetal tool holder and a 3 inserts.  The cost was over $200 for this one piece of kit, but he convinced me that if I was going to do carbide it would be "the best" and it is what he used, etc. Nowadays you can buy 4 DCMT0702 tool holders for under 35$ and a box of inserts for just over 6$. There is nothing wrong with either approach, each has its strengths and weaknesses, but it indicates some bias I want to mention. 

A bunch of us have chimed in from our experiences and our training to try to help choose a surface grinder.  We each have our hobby horses, failures and successes to draw on.  I think it is a very wise thing to ask a group like this for help *BUT*... Be sensitive to our motivations and our biases when learning from our experiences.

When my mentor got me to spend what was the equivalent in today's money of $450 for one tool, I could have bought other vital tools like a micrometer with some of that money, etc.   Now I still use that tool and its inserts.  it is a fine tool.  But I would have learned so much more spending 90$ on a cheaper solution and 200$ on materials and learned some skills by turning chips - and still had some money left over!

So when we say a surface grinder is a 'piece of junk' , our judgement may be based on criteria that doesn't matter to you at all.  If you want to learn "proper" skills, it is far easier to use a solid machine with good tolerances, rather than chasing the machine's shortcomings.  But some of you simply can't afford to spend $2000 - $4000 to get started (and another $2000  in wheels and tooling BTW)...  So if your price bracket is $400, then try to get the best deal you can - expect problems, expect to do fixes, expect lesser accuracy.

*If you don't have the machine on the floor, then you can't acquire the skills* - The non-existant 'rich hobbyist' can lay down $12000 for a Chevalier, and start grinding, and acquiring skills on a tight machine right away.  For the rest of us it is a matter of trading off cost, sweat equity, and accuracy.

If you find a super deal, our advice is trying to make sure that your aren't just throwing away your money.  Frankly if the spindle turns, and the table moves evenly, you can still acquire skills with it.  You may even rebuild it one day (or resell it).  None of us grind enough to ever put any noticeable wear on these machines.  You can spend $$$ on a new Chinese machine and still acquire skills with it.  You can even do good work on those machines.  You won't achieve the 'ultimate accuracy' with them either.

So don't back away from a deal out of 'fear of the unknown'.  Buy within your reasonable budget.  Know you will need at least 2 wheel adapters at around $200, unless you have the skill and time to make them. Add $25 at least for a diamond and a diamond block for dresssing it.  You will need at least 2 - 1/2" wheels in AO in hardness H or I to get started.  You should start by getting some heat treated metal to learn how to get good finish:  Soft metals are very tricky to grind properly.  All this should set you back about another $300 on top of the machine, and then you can get somewhere.  There's a zillion Youtube videos on grinding, and most of them are very good, and will accelerate your learning.

Good luck with your purchase!  (my apologies for the long tirade!)


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## Technical Ted (Sep 30, 2018)

Just for a point of reference, I've been looking for some additional adapters for my SG and used prices on eBay were so high I decided to buy new. The cheapest place I could find for Sopko adapters was McMaster Carr - $59 each for Sopko 00200 LH Adapter 200-1 which is 1-1/4" x 1/2-3/4 thickness LH thread. Their site doesn't give this info, but I emailed them before ordering. Sure enough, they are Sopko and Sons Inc.

I ordered (3) of these so I have a total of (4) and with shipping and tax they cost me just shy of what I paid for the SG! Another point to consider when buying a machine. If you can get a few in good condition with a machine it's a big plus. 

Ted


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## RWL (Sep 30, 2018)

ddickey said:


> I'll definitely make sure it's in good shape.
> For $1800 asking price it should be. One hub included so that is a slight disappointment. I'm only shopping and in no hurry as I have a small surface grinder at the moment but would like something larger.



Admittedly prices vary across the nation, but for central PA, that's waaay overpriced.  Used surface grinders are a $500 item with a chuck and less if they're really old.  There's a well written procedure on the net about how to rebuild a Boyar Schultz spindle, and having done that I can assure you it's doable at the home shop level.  Nevertheless, if the bearings are noisy, I'd walk away unless the price were in the $200-$250 range.  I wouldn't buy one with bronze bushings instead of ball bearings in the spindle at all.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 30, 2018)

I


RWL said:


> Admittedly prices vary across the nation, but for central PA, that's waaay overpriced.  Used surface grinders are a $500 item with a chuck and less if they're really old.  There's a well written procedure on the net about how to rebuild a Boyar Schultz spindle, and having done that I can assure you it's doable at the home shop level.  Nevertheless, if the bearings are noisy, I'd walk away unless the price were in the $200-$250 range.  I wouldn't buy one with bronze bushings instead of ball bearings in the spindle at all.


Do you have a link for the Boyar-Schultz spindle repair?  A buddy of mine has one that is making noise.

My B&S 2L has a plain bearing spindle and works fine.  Why do you say you wouldn't buy one?


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## ddickey (Sep 30, 2018)

The gentleman has lowered the price to $1250. To me that means he'd probably take a grand. There are no extras though. One wheel hub.
He is over a hundred miles from me so will sit this one out for the time being.


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