# D1-4 Slotted Faceplate



## petertha (Nov 27, 2016)

Q1. Anyone know a tool supplier that carries a decent one in the 10-11" diameter range? For some reason, I don't see them as much in tool catalogs anymore. Saw a few on Ebay & may have to go that route, but thought I'd try inquiring first. (Canada or USA shipping)

Q2. I've never had the need to mount the one up that came with my 14x40 lathe until recently. Something is wonky but I cant figure out what. I spotted some run-out & determined there was a bit of daylight showing between the plate hub & lathe spindle boss. The D1-4 pins are not clamping quite right & it took a slight bump to release the plate as opposed to my usual nearly drops off with D1-4 chucks after 1/4-turn release click. I measured all the pins, tried resetting the height 1 turn in/out in case they weren't set right. Even swapped all positions thinking they got mixed up. Nothing seems to be improving it. Then I removed the pins, blued the tapered spindle nose, pushed the plate on & gave it a slight turn. I was fully expecting to see a bad taper cut but it doesn't look too bad actually, decent blue transfer. Repeated with jiffy marker & now it shows some slight non-contact but not appreciably different than my chucks. My gut feel is maybe the nose taper is ok & the culprit is D1-4 pin pattern is either not concentric or something amiss with the pins/scallops. Maybe it shrunk sitting in the corner all those years!  I figured for the price, maybe just get a new one & deal with how to remedy this later. Any thoughts?

Q3, I have a spare D1-4 unfinished lathe casting back plate adapter normally used for a chuck. It fits the spindle perfectly. Its not married to any chuck so I thought how about machine it true in-situ & then mount a plate to the front to mimic the CI integrated faceplate. I'd have to bolt it onto the adapter casting & then clean up face true, mill the 8 slots etc. Its a bit more project than I wanted to tackle but it brings up other ideas like say a tooling plate with an array of threaded holes for holding odd things that don't lend themselves to slots. Unfortunately I don't have CI slabs but have some 1/2" cast aluminum tooling plate. Would this be a not-so-good idea given the weaker & dissimilar material acting as the plate?


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## petertha (Nov 27, 2016)

Like mine


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## Bob Korves (Nov 27, 2016)

The D1-4 works with a SLIGHT interference fit between the spindle nose O.D. taper and the chuck, faceplate, or whatever inside taper.  It sounds like they machined your face plate a little small on the I.D.  It is VERY easy to open it up too much.  I used 220 emery cloth on mine lightly, and after just a bit of sanding the chuck taper it fit like a glove.  DO NOT SAND OR GRIND ON THE SPINDLE NOSE!  You may LIGHTLY clean up any burs found there with a fine India stone.  The D1 series spindles are supposed to require a bit of tightening on the camlocs before the tapers meet and the flat faces of chuck and spindle are touching.  If the flat faces are not touching, the chuck/faceplate will wobble with axial runout at the outside edges.  It must tighten down solid without twisting the camlocs too hard.  If the fit is too loose you will have radial runout.  You can check for gaps between the flat surfaces with a sheet of white paper and a light behind the spindle so you can see any gaps better.


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## 4GSR (Nov 27, 2016)

I have a blank chuck adapter plate similar to this one that I keep on hand for use as a face plate.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-1-2-Lath...in-Back-USA-/131740411665?hash=item1eac572711

I don't bother to machine the slots in the plate as the old style face plates are designed.  I intend to drill and tap a series of holes on the plate to use for mounting the work to when needed.  Ken


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## petertha (Nov 27, 2016)

Bob Korves said:


> ... sounds like they machined your face plate a little small on the I.D..


Thanks Bob. Well my unsophisticated blueing check showed pretty nice coverage on both the faceplate ID & lathe nose smeared a homogeneous light blue on both surfaces. Now that was me trying to be careful to engage it on the taper perpendicular, give it a slight turn & release. This was without the D-pins of course. Are you saying even if this taper angle is correct, but the entire hole is slightly undersized, then now tightening the pins will start differentially pulling the plate off axis & that's the problem?

Once I saw this pretty good bluing, I leapt to the conclusion that the pin circle diameter may not concentric with the taper ID & that could pull it off axis, but now you have me thinking. I will try & remount without pins & try & get a handle on how much light gap is there. I don't have any of that plastic feeler gage stuff but maybe that would quantity? Grr.. I didn't want to mess with tuning up parts, but I guess that's par for course once in a while. I have a cheapo Chinese back plate adapter & the thing fits perfect. Just missing the 'plate' part.


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## petertha (Nov 27, 2016)

4gsr said:


> I have a blank chuck adapter plate similar to this one.  Ken


Interesting, thanks 4gsr! That's a good price too. I'll have to give that thought. Maybe a matrix grid of alternating through hole & tapped hole so you can bolt from the front or the rear.
OTOH, slots are kind of convenient when your part has non-standard dimensional spacing, the bolts are free to float anywhere within the slot itself.

Strange, with all the competition in chucks &Asian knockoffs, you would think there would not be so scare in tool catalogs.


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## 4GSR (Nov 27, 2016)

petertha said:


> Interesting, thanks 4gsr! That's a good price too. I'll have to give that thought. Maybe a matrix grid of alternating through hole & tapped hole so you can bolt from the front or the rear.
> OTOH, slots are kind of convenient when your part has non-standard dimensional spacing, the bolts are free to float anywhere within the slot itself.
> 
> Strange, with all the competition in chucks &Asian knockoffs, you would think there would not be so scare in tool catalogs.


Face plates are not widely used today as they were 50-100 years ago.  I've made it an effort to pick them up when I can find them.  I have the L-00 and L-0 spindle noses on my machines.  They are very hard to find today.  I nailed one about two years ago with the L-00 mount on it.  It's about 9" OD with six slots on it.  May never need it, but if I do, I have it now!  I bought a 12" OD blank with an L-0 mount for my other lathe.  This is the one I want to just drill and tap some holes on it so I would have it when needed.  Ken


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## Bob Korves (Nov 27, 2016)

petertha said:


> Thanks Bob. Well my unsophisticated blueing check showed pretty nice coverage on both the faceplate ID & lathe nose smeared a homogeneous light blue on both surfaces. Now that was me trying to be careful to engage it on the taper perpendicular, give it a slight turn & release. This was without the D-pins of course. Are you saying even if this taper angle is correct, but the entire hole is slightly undersized, then now tightening the pins will start differentially pulling the plate off axis & that's the problem?
> 
> Once I saw this pretty good bluing, I leapt to the conclusion that the pin circle diameter may not concentric with the taper ID & that could pull it off axis, but now you have me thinking. I will try & remount without pins & try & get a handle on how much light gap is there. I don't have any of that plastic feeler gage stuff but maybe that would quantity? Grr.. I didn't want to mess with tuning up parts, but I guess that's par for course once in a while. I have a cheapo Chinese back plate adapter & the thing fits perfect. Just missing the 'plate' part.


Feeler stock will not work as well as looking for gaps with light from behind the opposite side of the chuck.  If you see a light gap, then the faces are not touching, and the chuck, faceplate, or whatever is only supported by a narrow ring of contact on the tapered ring.  That will not support the work well and will give you a chuck with runout.  If you tighten the camlocs while indicating the front face of the chuck, you can see it tipping from one side to another as you tighten and loosen the individual camlocs if the taper fit is too tight.  Ideally, the taper should make firm contact at the same time that the faces make firm contact, and the camlocs will all tighten down evenly and firmly.  A light bump with a dead blow hammer from behind should knock the chuck loose after releasing the camlocs.


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## Bob Korves (Nov 27, 2016)

4gsr said:


> Face plates are not widely used today as they were 50-100 years ago.  I've made it an effort to pick them up when I can find them.  I have the L-00 and L-0 spindle noses on my machines.  They are very hard to find today.  I nailed one about two years ago with the L-00 mount on it.  It's about 9" OD with six slots on it.  May never need it, but if I do, I have it now!  I bought a 12" OD blank with an L-0 mount for my other lathe.  This is the one I want to just drill and tap some holes on it so I would have it when needed.  Ken


I just keep the faceplate like it is.  I consider it a work in progress.  If I need a hole or holes or slots to mount something, I will drill it or machine it as needed for the job.  I won't drill any holes until I need them.


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## Bob Korves (Nov 27, 2016)

petertha said:


> (snip)  Are you saying even if this taper angle is correct, but the entire hole is slightly undersized, then now tightening the pins will start differentially pulling the plate off axis & that's the problem?  (snip)



I am saying that the chuck or faceplate hole being too small is the problem.  It allows the chuck to be "dialed in" spherically by the camlocks instead of locking firmly face to face on the flat surfaces of chuck and spindle as intended.  The tapered ring is only intended to locate the chuck radially.  It could even be a safety issue.  The chuck, the work, and the tool loads are only being supported by the camlock pins and might possibly fail in tension.  It is fairly common for D1 series lathes to have this problem, especially when new or with new tooling being added.  My lathe had this problem with both the 3 and the 4 jaw chucks, but not with the faceplate.


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## petertha (Nov 27, 2016)

I think I understand now. The spindle nose & vertical face are intended mate to their surfaces simultaneously. Dang, that's not much room for error. I need a lapping plug!


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## Bob Korves (Nov 28, 2016)

Dykem and sandpaper will do the job...  If you try to cut it on the lathe, it is very easy to cut it too much, resulting in radial runout.  Note that the dimensional tolerances you posted the files of are metric measurements.  .001 mm equals .0004 inch.  It is very easy to overshoot while fitting the tapers, making the fit too loose.  Wear will gradually make it looser yet.  On a faceplate, ultimate concentricity is not important.  Repeatablity IS important should you ever want to remove the part and faceplate together from the spindle for additional ops and then return it to the lathe.


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## petertha (Dec 9, 2016)

My update & happy ending. BTW, everything Bob said was 100% exactly my situation. The only difference being for some reason I had more material to remove on the tapered bore than just a skiff. The daylight gap is a bit deceiving. I was concerned about introducing a bad profile by hand sanding so what I did was used one of my nicely ground & perfectly fitting chuck backplate adapters kind of like a mold guide. I applied a releasing agent to the spindle taper & pressed in some epoxy putty. When this hardened & cured, it gave me a good angle shape to then wet/dry sand the undersize faceplate bore. I blued it & checked progression & repeated until there was no more gap. Sorry I didn't take a final picture but its now smooth & shiny. It sits perfectly tight on the spindle nose & requires a just mild mallet thwack to remove. Once this was established I took some facing cuts to true up the plate. Now its elevated from doorstop status to useful tool.

I immediately put it to use & made myself an adapter plate.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/chuck-adapter-plate-for-rotary-table.52934/


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## Bob Korves (Dec 9, 2016)

Glad to hear you got it working correctly, Peter!


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