# The Car Business Is Changing



## Janderso

I've mostly worked for a Ford dealership off and on since 1975.
In that time we have seen a technical revolution.
We have seen Detroit's worst and finest.
Our frontline is empty, it runs along Highway 99 in Northern California. We usually carry well over 100 units, new and used. Mostly trucks and SUV's
We have (1) new Ford pickup for sale. We have less than 20 new and used combined.
Sales are robust! We just don't have the inventory.
Times are-a changing.
Without sales, we don't have used inventory coming through.  The auctions are few and far between, it's just time to retire.
Thank God I'm close.


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## benmychree

Our local dealer seems to have inventory.


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## Janderso

We usually have them lined up perpendicular to the Hwy.
I count 12 units on 99. These are all used except for one new F150 on the end.


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## Janderso

benmychree said:


> Our local dealer seems to have inventory.


Sanderson Ford?
That's hard to believe. 
If it's the GM dealer, I don't know their situation. Who the heck would want a Chevy though??


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## pdentrem

New and used lots are getting bare and the prices for used has rocketed into the stupid levels. Anything that has wheels is listed, even with 1000s needed to make road worthy. Another thing I have noticed is any vehicle older than 1988 is priced even stupider!
Pierre


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## Janderso

pdentrem said:


> New and used lots are getting bare and the prices for used has rocketed into the stupid levels. Anything that has wheels is listed, even with 1000s needed to make road worthy. Another thing I have noticed is any vehicle older than 1988 is priced even stupider!
> Pierre


My son told me his buddy bought a Toyota pick-up in 2018. he said it's worth more today than what he paid for it.
I believe it.
The supply and demand issues in this country are nuts.
Lumber,
Cars,
Gas is next,
Food
I heard the largest meat packing company in the world just got a ransom ware hit and had to stop production?? This is the US and Australia.
meat may go even higher. Costco usually has Tri-tip for less than $5 a lb. It's over $12 right now.


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## Flyinfool

Janderso said:


> Sanderson Ford?
> That's hard to believe.
> If it's the GM dealer, I don't know their situation. Who the heck would want a Chevy though??


All dealers of all brands have full lots for both new and used around here.

As for who would want a Chevy, everyone that knows better than to get a Ford........


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## vtcnc

Janderso said:


> I've mostly worked for a Ford dealership off and on since 1975.
> In that time we have seen a technical revolution.
> We have seen Detroit's worst and finest.
> Our frontline is empty, it runs along Highway 99 in Northern California. We usually carry well over 100 units, new and used. Mostly trucks and SUV's
> We have (1) new Ford pickup for sale. We have less than 20 new and used combined.
> Sales are robust! We just don't have the inventory.
> Times are-a changing.
> Without sales, we don't have used inventory coming through. The auctions are few and far between, it's just time to retire.
> Thank God I'm close.



My understanding is that the IC shortage out of Asia is the cause of production delays in car plants. Does that ring true with what you are hearing in the dealership?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## benmychree

Janderso said:


> Sanderson Ford?
> That's hard to believe.
> If it's the GM dealer, I don't know their situation. Who the heck would want a Chevy though??


Zumwalt Ford in St. Helena; the Chevy dealer went out of business, THIS IS A FORD TOWN!  That said, too many Beemers and Mercedes.  We are pretty happy with our Ford Fusion, but if the electronic stuff was easier to remember how to operate, we'd like it better.


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## benmychree

Janderso said:


> My son told me his buddy bought a Toyota pick-up in 2018. he said it's worth more today than what he paid for it.
> I believe it.
> The supply and demand issues in this country are nuts.
> Lumber,
> Cars,
> Gas is next,
> Food
> I heard the largest meat packing company in the world just got a ransom ware hit and had to stop production?? This is the US and Australia.
> meat may go even higher. Costco usually has Tri-tip for less than $5 a lb. It's over $12 right now.


Haven't been to Costco since the virus reared it's ugly head; will likely make the trip before too long.


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## Manual Mac

Dealers around here have vehicles stacked up like cordwood.
And people are buying them.
My front line vehicle is now 17yrs old, i bought it new.
Hope I can afford the new vehicle prices when I need to buy again.
Cheers, Harvey


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## rwm

Charlotte GMC dealer has 0 Canyon Denalis with gas motors. They have one coming in next week but it is already sold.
Toyota dealer says there are 0 new Tacomas available on the entire east coast.
Robert


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## Janderso

Flyinfool said:


> All dealers of all brands have full lots for both new and used around here.
> 
> As for who would want a Chevy, everyone that knows better than to get a Ford........


You are so full of poop!


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## Janderso

Interesting,
Maybe it’s a regional thing.
Around here, dealers lots are empty, new car dealers, pot lots, buy here pay here.......


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## C-Bag

vtcnc said:


> My understanding is that the IC shortage out of Asia is the cause of production delays in car plants. Does that ring true with what you are hearing in the dealership?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My buddy in Louisville KY said the Ford plant was closed for 3-4mo because of the chip shortage. Crazy.


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## rwm

Are you serious?! Fords have electronics?! I could see them having chips...in the paint.
R


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## Janderso

vtcnc said:


> My understanding is that the IC shortage out of Asia is the cause of production delays in car plants. Does that ring true with what you are hearing in the dealership?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, Ford is building our trucks, parking them on fairgrounds and abandoned highways to ship when the modules can be installed.
The tourism trade, rental cars, are not available for repurchase at auction.
That is how we fill our lots with inventory.


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## Janderso

rwm said:


> Are you serious?! Fords have electronics?! I could see them having chips...in the paint.
> R


You are so I’ll informed. I feel sorry for you.
Drink the blue Kool-Aid
If I said, “Chevrolet” when I was growing up, I would have soap in my mouth.


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## rwm

This is rapidly degrading into a Chevy-Mopar-Ford conflict. 
What color is your tractor??? 
R


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## Flyinfool

At least I used a smiley face.

Yes fords have electronics, they need the sound system to pipe in the sounds of a V8 Chevy to make them little engines sound better....


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## tweinke

I work at a Ford dealer, We do have four new vehicles! Used lot has about fifteen or so. Busy in the shop which is good for me.


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## Winegrower

Hold off on any more internal combustion stuff.   Have you seen the electric Ford F-150?   Now THAT is worth waiting for!


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## Aukai

We have tourists walking, taking the bus, and taxies to go places, rental cars 400.00 dollars a day, and no inventory. The mothballed fleet was decimated by rats, vandalism, dead batteries etc. I guess they cannot buy new for now with the chip issues. Is there a time line expected for the chips, and cars to start going again?


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## vtcnc

I can tell you that for our mfg’d products (not vehicles), our suppliers are looking at alternative substitutes for IC chips and we are having to purchase products in annual inventories to secure them. And lead times are six months or longer. We were ahead of this problem by about 2 months by our estimates. It sounds like the car companies were ahead of this by six months and we see how bad it is with them.

Long recovery is in front of us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mmcmdl

rwm said:


> This is rapidly degrading into a Chevy-Mopar-Ford conflict.
> What color is your tractor???


I have an orange diesel and an older Cub ! 

Around here , the lots are empty also . Neighbor bought the only Ram diesel truck that was on the lot . He also said only 4 used trucks were on the lot . When he told me the price , I dern near fainted . My sons both bought Yota Forerunners 2 years ago . They ARE worth more today than what they paid for them . Kinda crazy , wish machine tools went up like that !


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## projectnut

Janderso said:


> I've mostly worked for a Ford dealership off and on since 1975.
> In that time we have seen a technical revolution.
> We have seen Detroit's worst and finest.
> Our frontline is empty, it runs along Highway 99 in Northern California. We usually carry well over 100 units, new and used. Mostly trucks and SUV's
> We have (1) new Ford pickup for sale. We have less than 20 new and used combined.
> Sales are robust! We just don't have the inventory.
> Times are-a changing.
> Without sales, we don't have used inventory coming through.  The auctions are few and far between, it's just time to retire.
> Thank God I'm close.


Things have definitely changed and in a big way.  I've been driving Fords since the late 1970's and was even a shop foreman at a local dealership for a short time.  I loved the job, but it was in the late 70's when Ford changed from the body on frame to the unibody.  Sales took a huge dump then,  to the point that we went from selling nearly 100 cars a week to less than 30.  My staff went from 24 down to 10 within 3 months.  When the staff finally dwindled down to 6 I could see the writing on the wall.  I knew it would be a matter of weeks or even days and I would be in the same boat.  I was prepared for the worst and it finally came.  I hope this isn't the start of a similar cycle.

Unfortunately that same Ford dealer is having problems similar to yours.  They are getting less than 1/3 of the vehicles they order.  Then again the current prices are also giving people pause.  I purchased an Expedition last year and it was more than double the cost of the one I bought in 2010.  The list price of a top of the line one was pushing 95,000.00.  I saw one Navigator on the floor with a price tag even higher.  

The electronics are beyond the point of reason.  While it isn't a self driving vehicle it certainly wants to be.  There are bells, whistles, beeps, buzzers and a myriad of other annoying noises every time the driver does something the vehicle doesn't like.  Going through a construction zone (which is about 80% of the roads in our area right now) is a nightmare if half the systems aren't in override.

I love the vehicle, but the tailgate is a PITA.  I can't count the number of times it's opened in my face, or hit me in the back of the head when errantly closing.  I finally disconnected the under bumper antenna after it smacked me in the face while I was hooking up the trailer.  The worst part is I let go of the trailer tongue and it rolled forward and hit the bumper.  Now I have a big scratch in the paint.  AAARGH.

Maybe it's time to rethink the electronics and only provide some of the more necessary functions.


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## FOMOGO

This is why my newest truck is 94, most of my other vehicles are in the mid 60's. Mike


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## Janderso

I just happened to be watching this video this morning.
I think the content helps explain our current world wide shortage of everything!!


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## Flyinfool

It IS all of the fancy electronics that will keep me out of a new truck for a long time. If at all possible I refuse to buy a vehicle that can turn the steering wheel or hit the brakes all by its self, and I will hold out as long as possible. They already took away my gas pedal and I really don't like it, There have been cases where I needed power NOW and the computer had to think about it for a bit and then gave power more slowly than needed. One of which caused a crash where a stop sign runner just caught the last 6 inches of my back bumper, had the power been there when I asked for it I would have made it out of the way. Had the car noticed a problem and hit the brakes for me, it would have been a solid T-bone. Maybe it is because I am an ex stock car driver that I really notice the lag between input and output. 

I don't need the car to drive for me, I am old and know how to drive and parallel park all by myself.


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## Janderso

I have to admit, the fly by wire electronics are a bit concerning.
I think the biggest issue I have with todays vehicles are with the modules. Dozens of them.
What's going to happen when you need to replace a mirror, seat or body module and they are obsolete?
It's going to happen. We are already seeing it. When you pay $90,000 for a truck, you expect to drive it for a long time.
I would still be driving my 2002 F-150 to work everyday if it hadn't burned in the fire. 257,000 miles and it didn't burn a drop of oil.
I can't say with any confidence that these modules will be available in 10-20 years for that $90,000 truck.
It's all models and brands. The Denso or Ying-sa factory make the modules that go in darn near every car makers vehicles.
I remember seeing a relay in a GM product that was identical to a Ford part.
Hopefully someone will reproduce or repair some of the more popular little computers.


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## rwm

My car slammed on the brakes the other day for a car I knew I would not hit. Scared the shi$$ out of me. I hate it.
Robert


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## sdelivery

Janderso said:


> You are so full of poop!


Fortunately there are just a few of those....


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## Janderso

rwm said:


> My car slammed on the brakes the other day for a car I knew I would not hit. Scared the shi$$ out of me. I hate it.
> Robert


Collision avoidance system.
I wonder if you can turn it off?
The adaptive cruise control is great. 
Your on the freeway, open highway, you set the cruise to 70mph. You come up on a slower vehicle, you don't hit the brakes, the cruise control sees the vehicle and slows down. Once the vehicle gets out of the way you are back up to 70 like nothing ever happened.


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## macardoso

Found this the other day and found it very interesting.






EDIT: I see someone posted the exact same video as me lol. It was a good one!


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## MikeInOr

A friend was looking for a new RV.  Around here there aren't any and there is a 1 year waiting list.


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## martik777

FOMOGO said:


> This is why my newest truck is 94, most of my other vehicles are in the mid 60's. Mike


With $7/gal gas I just can't afford to drive the older vehicles. I went for an EV 3 years ago. Now at the mercy of dealerships  but so far no problems.


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## MikeInOr

Janderso said:


> I just happened to be watching this video this morning.
> I think the content helps explain our current world wide shortage of everything!!


At 16:16... Toyota is the ONLY major car manufacture NOT affected by the chip shortage!  Hmmm.... that is not what I am seeing at the local Toyota dealer.


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## MikeInOr

Janderso said:


> I have to admit, the fly by wire electronics are a bit concerning.
> I think the biggest issue I have with todays vehicles are with the modules. Dozens of them.
> What's going to happen when you need to replace a mirror, seat or body module and they are obsolete?
> It's going to happen. We are already seeing it. When you pay $90,000 for a truck, you expect to drive it for a long time.
> I would still be driving my 2002 F-150 to work everyday if it hadn't burned in the fire. 257,000 miles and it didn't burn a drop of oil.
> I can't say with any confidence that these modules will be available in 10-20 years for that $90,000 truck.
> It's all models and brands. The Denso or Ying-sa factory make the modules that go in darn near every car makers vehicles.
> I remember seeing a relay in a GM product that was identical to a Ford part.
> Hopefully someone will reproduce or repair some of the more popular little computers.


I can still get parts for my '67 F100... not new but I have not run into a shortage.  My '76 IH Scout on the other had is much harder to find body parts for due to its limited production numbers.  I do not see how modules are different than any other part?  If each module were unique to a specific vehicle model and year I can see how that could be a problem... but the modules are used in multiple models over several generations which should make a future supply more plentiful instead of less plentiful???

I just replaced the control module in my 4 year old GE dishwasher.  There were actually jumpers (that were not on the original board) on the replacement board to select the "personality" of the particular dish washer it is going into.  From what I can tell that same module has been used in pretty much all GE dishwashers over the last half dozen years regardless of the particular model.  Of course by standardizing on that module there are a LOT of 3 to 6 year old GE dishwashers that have died like mine did!  Online they said to make sure to get the board ending in "V4" instead of the one ending in "V3".  LOL!


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## Papa Charlie

I have a 2003 Ford F350 4 door 4x4 Dually with the 7.3l IH diesel. By the way, I searched for this truck with that engine for almost a year. It had 140k on it when I got it and just crested 190k after 5 years. I love my truck but it has way too much electronics on it. One thing absolutely hate is the electric 4 wheel drive shift. In theory it is great because I don't have to get out to lock the hubs. Great for winter when you driving in and out of snow. But those systems work maybe 1/4 of the time. The transfer case shifts OK, but not the hubs. I recently spent what seems like a fortune to have the diaphragms replaced in the front end. Worked for two months and then stopped. Back to locking the hubs manually. To be honest, I would prefer to lock my hubs manually and pull a shift lever to engage the transfer case.

There is too much on this vehicle that is electric. But I do love it. The only vehicle we take trips in. So comfortable for full day driving on trips.

Now as for my wifes Yukon, most uncomfortable vehicle I have ever ridden in. The electronics for the seat heaters like to turn themselves on. You will be driving along and all of a sudden come to the realization that you back side is hot. Turn it off and everything is good for a while then you notice it again.

What a pain.


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## Janderso

PaPa,
The all wheel drive vehicles today are very dependable.
I think back to the days when I started out in the parts dept.
The wiper seals up front (half moon) would leak, the trunnion bearings with brass shim pre-load would be full of grit and the pins are all worn out.
The transfer cases leaked all the time. The Warn hubs did lock up good though. 
Technology and precision have made todays vehicles so much better than the old days. IMHO.

I took some pics of our used car lot this morning. Pretty sad.


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## Papa Charlie

I most likely will have this truck for some time. I hear you about the technology today. But I still like mechanical over electronic. I don't like a computer, embedded in resin that controls everything (well several of them control everything). If one goes out, it is easily $1500. But then again, most things on larger trucks will be.


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## pdentrem

Like having to replace the PCM due to the regulator failed and no charge going to the battery. $50 part now costs $$$$. Neighbor was very unhappy to learn the fix was $1500! Guys have figured out how to install an external regulator to bypass the PCM.
Pierre


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## Janderso

pdentrem said:


> Guys have figured out how to install an external regulator to bypass the PCM.


That's the ticket


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## Asm109

Janderso said:


> The adaptive cruise control is great.
> Your on the freeway, open highway, you set the cruise to 70mph. You come up on a slower vehicle, you don't hit the brakes, the cruise control sees the vehicle and slows down. Once the vehicle gets out of the way you are back up to 70 like nothing ever happened.


You must drive in an alternate California to the one I drive in.  The slow vehicle NEVER gets out of the way.  They must think they have a deed to the fast lane.


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## Superburban

Asm109 said:


> You must drive in an alternate California to the one I drive in.  The slow vehicle NEVER gets out of the way.  They must think they have a deed to the fast lane.


That is the whole country now. What ever happened to keep right?


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## Flyinfool

If I am going the speed limit you have no reason to be going any faster than that.  Makes ya wanna   

These are the same folks that will not move over for even an emergency vehicle, they think the mirrors in a car are just useless decorations to run the price up. They serve no other purpose.


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## Papa Charlie

Superburban said:


> That is the whole country now. *What ever happened to keep righ*t?


Dyslexia?


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## FOMOGO




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## RandyWilson

I probably ought not get involved in this thread. But I've never been known for listening to my own advice.

I don't mind the electronics. Actually, I LOVE the electronics. What I do gripe about is some of the nanny/safety programming they do. Can't properly bed in brakes because you can't step on the throttle and brake at the same time anymore. And any company that has such a low opinion of their customers that they feel necessary to put a child safety lock on the driver's door is not something I will ever own.  \


I drive 10-15 different cars and trucks every day. Greater than 95% of the cars have the side mirrors adjusted to a point 50 feet behind the center of the car. Thus 2/3's of the mirror is showing door handle. 

 Adaptive cruise control is utterly useless around here. It is programmed to leave the "recommended" following distance, which is big enough that you will have two semis and a Prius jumping in the gap.

Having grown up with, and spent my early and mid career working on an eclectic array of cars, mostly European, cars, I find the GM/Ford/Mopar battles amusing. Strange even.


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## Karl_T

Say, i ordered a brand new F150 about six weeks ago now. Have not heard a thing.  Placed the order before i knew about the chip shortage. Will FoMoCo ever give me some kind of expected delivery schedule?


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## Larry$

projectnut said:


> Maybe it's time to rethink the electronics


My wife got a new 2021 Subaru Outback. Near bottom of the line model. It is so full of electronics it drives me nuts. Almost all the dash controls are now touch screen. You have to look at the screen to find the touch point. Bad idea! I like knobs, perky ones.


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## Truckmannorth

I don't normally chime in but this thread is too close to home. As a mechanic for the last 30 odd years I have had the pleasure of working on cars and trucks of almost every make and model.  While I have some opinions on some of the different brands for the most part its all the same just different colors.  As a consumer I enjoy the new features that come with all of the electronics.  As a mechanic it is a different story. I was young enough when it all started to be able to keep up and learn how to diagnose and repair the new stuff. The problem is explaining to the customer why fixing what was a small problem I. The past cost so much now. We are also seeing a decrease in the quality of the aftermarket parts that are available.  In just the last year or so the number of defective parts right out of the box has become a serious problem.  I plan on retirement in about 9 years and hope I can keep my sanity that long.


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## 7milesup

The electronics can be an issue, especially if you happen to get a car with an abundance of gremlins roaming around in the wiring.  That being said, I have had very little to no issues with electronics in my cars.  Older cars are, without a doubt, easier to diagnose and subsequently repair due to their simplistic nature than their successors.  As far as drive by wire systems, aircraft have had fly by wire for years.  Airbus went through some teething troubles with their system early in the life cycle, most notably the Air France flight 296.  That being said, there are millions of flying hours completed every year with fly by wire systems.
I have seriously considered purchasing a classic muscle car, but the overall lack of safety in the older cars keeps coming  up in my mind when I start thinking about doing such a silly thing.  The survivability of a new car in a crash is  substantially better than older vehicles.  After a severe car crash in 1985, that is a consideration for me.
Back on track, there are nearly no new vehicles around here at all.  Dealers are consolidating their lots and downsizing.  Literally last night I was poking around the internet for a new Ram truck.  There were NONE configured even close to what I was looking for.


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## pdentrem

Drove past the Toyota and Chrysler/Jeep dealer after supper and they have about 30% of what they usually have. New and used same.
Pierre


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## FOMOGO

A six point roll cage, and a quick release harness would fix that issue. Mike



7milesup said:


> I have seriously considered purchasing a classic muscle car, but the overall lack of safety in the older cars keeps coming up in my mind when I start thinking about doing such a silly thing.


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## westerner

Truckmannorth said:


> We are also seeing a decrease in the quality of the aftermarket parts that are available.


This reality is the single biggest reason I left the business. I have had to warranty parts, or finish the "kit" to make the part work, 
too many times to have confidence in a price I quote.


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## 7milesup

FOMOGO said:


> A six point roll cage, and a quick release harness would fix that issue. Mike


True.  It is just that the wife would not like a five point harness.


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## FOMOGO

Standard three point is a pretty easy install, put them in my 60 T-Bird. When I drive with my wife I generally let her drive, just not worth the constant safety tutorial, and gasps at something I saw 30 seconds earlier. When I want to DRIVE, I go alone, and thoroughly enjoy myself. Mike


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## pdentrem

We added belts for our ‘36 Chrysler as well. No airbags but still feel much more comfortable driving now. Funny we also ride on the motorcycle and no belts there!
Pierre
We bought from here. Lots of options




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## RandyWilson

On reliability. People seem to forget that back in the "good old days" when cars "were fixable", you had to work on them pretty much every weekend to keep them running. Spark plugs lasted 5K miles, if you didn't burn oil. transmissions 30K.  Now components are going 100-200K miles with no maintenance what so ever.

Every machine has a weak link. Something. With modern cars, with one notable exception, it's NOT the electronics. I could fill a book with lists of makes/models and pattern failures. There is only one manufacturer that the pattern failure is the computers.


 On safety. Why do people always talk about crash survivability rather than crash avoidance?  Got my stability control. Got my ABS. And I got my 80K warrantied solid brick no traction tires... 

Long ago I swore off anything with drum  brakes, beam axles, front drive, stupid weight distribution, etc. I also swore off pushrods, but for non-safety reasons. Unfortunately, in today's market, there is now only one manufacturer that makes passenger cars that meet my criteria.


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## 7milesup

And that manufacturer would be?  The world wonders...


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## RandyWilson

Edit:

 The one with the continuous electronics issues? Or the one that still builds rear wheel drive balanced sedans?


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## Janderso

Flyinfool said:


> At least I used a smiley face.
> 
> Yes fords have electronics, they need the sound system to pipe in the sounds of a V8 Chevy to make them little engines sound better....


Flyinfool,
Sorry about the poop comment. It was meant to be light hearted banter.


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## Flyinfool

No offense taken, I also took it as standard Chevy Ford banter.


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## 7milesup

RandyWilson said:


> Edit:
> 
> The one with the continuous electronics issues? Or the one that still builds rear wheel drive balanced sedans?


Both!


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## FOMOGO

Oddly enough, my wife feels totally comfortable on the the back of my Harley, which rarely see's anything under 80mph on the highway, with occasional lane splitting, and other Bushido oriented maneuvers. Go figure. Mike


pdentrem said:


> Funny we also ride on the motorcycle and no belts there!
> Pierre


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## Tozguy

RandyWilson said:


> Unfortunately, in today's market, there is now only one manufacturer that makes passenger cars that meet my criteria.


And which one would that be Randy?


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## pdentrem

FOMOGO said:


> Oddly enough, my wife feels totally comfortable on the the back of my Harley, which rarely see's anything under 80mph on the highway, with occasional lane splitting, and other Bushido oriented maneuvers. Go figure. Mike


Same here. There are times I wonder is she falls asleep! I added a high back rest pad that folds down flat when it is just me. She loves it.
Pierre


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## Flyinfool

I can always tell whe the wife is sleeping on the back of the bike, her head tips forward and her helmet bangs on the back of my helmet.


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