# Monarch 10ee



## MattM (Jul 31, 2016)

Looking to buy one, prices all over the place.  What's a good deal?  Or should I forget about it and buy something else?

 I have a Clausing Colchester 12x36 but I want something more "precision".  Not that I need it's just that I want it.  I have a friend who wants the Clausing and will give me a fair price.


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## JimDawson (Jul 31, 2016)

Here ya go, right next door, well, pretty close anyway.

https://medford.craigslist.org/tls/5706389378.html


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## MattM (Aug 1, 2016)

This is a scam.  I answered this ad.  The machine is on the east coast and the guy wants me to pay up front by check before shipment even though the ad says free shipping and COD.  He won't even give me his name or address of his business.  I doubt he owns the machine. 

I have been going back and forth with him by phone and email.  He will not take credit cards or Pay-Pal.  I looked up reviews and they are nasty.

I suggest someone else contact him and  see how it goes.  He will tell you he has 2-3 other people interested and you better hurry to get this great deal.  This guy doesn't even speak or write decent English.  Definitely a scammer.  But I do suggest others contact him and report back.

Whatever you do do not send money.


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## JimDawson (Aug 1, 2016)

Thanks for the heads up on that one.  Maybe I'll contact him using a throwaway email address.

There were 2 in the McMinnville area for about $7500 for the pair, but I haven't seen them come up for awhile.  Were on Craigslist for the last year or so, on and off.


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## westsailpat (Aug 2, 2016)

In the early 80's we had a few of these in the shop when I worked for Rockwell . They were nice , down side was they had complicated electronics . Like vacuum tubes and stuff .


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## MattM (Aug 2, 2016)

The one(s) I'm looking at have that old vacuum tube stuff replaced with modern VFD's.  Problem is they tend to be very expensive.


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## kram0390 (Aug 3, 2016)

Arent there any other precision machines with same capabilities? 
I don't know if there are swiss machines available at that side of the pond? Or german?
Schaublin, weiler and such brands. 
Maybe TOS SUI32 perhaps?


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## Doubleeboy (Aug 3, 2016)

MattM said:


> The one(s) I'm looking at have that old vacuum tube stuff replaced with modern VFD's.  Problem is they tend to be very expensive.



having looked at dozens of 10ees and owning a WiaD machine for 13 plus years, its my experience that most of the converted machines are a sad replica of the original, frequently they have had back gear taken out, have poor low end power, do not have the smooth speed control of the original tube or motor generator set up.  If its a conversion done by Monarch different story, but they put huge motors in to make up for loss of back gear and were very expensive retrofits.

If you are afraid of the tube machines get an older motor generator machine , most any elevator shop should have someone who could work on motor or generator if you have problems.  If youa re into doublee  Practical Machinist monarch board is where the info on repair is.

michael


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## eedriz (Aug 6, 2016)

Am nw here friend


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## MattM (Sep 10, 2016)

Thinking on buying this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181919707101?ul_noapp=true

I talked with the owner who seems to be  truthful and honorable and I believe the machine to be as represented.

Problem is it is 1,700 miles distant so I cannot examine it.  I would hate to have it arrive on my doorstep and find it not good.

Suggestions and advice?


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## Eddyde (Sep 11, 2016)

That's a tough call. Personally, I would find it hard to spend that kind of dough for a machine without personally inspecting it.  However, if it is what you really want, are comfortable with the price and feel the seller is being truthful it may be a good deal. I would ask many questions, particularly about the drive upgrade.


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## mksj (Sep 11, 2016)

I would check freight and shipping, it could be significant. I also do not follow the weight as being listed as 2500lb, other listings/brochure for this model  are closer to 3500lb. I would be hesitant to pay that much for a machine and not be able to evaluate it up front, but the description seems reasonable and fair. There is another 10EE for much less that seems to be in good working order at 1/2 the price and make an offer.  At the asking price or less, I would have less reservations about buying it site unseen. A little elbow work and some paint and looks like it would be a very nice machine. It appears to be a newer model, comes with a taper turning attachment and I believe it has an electronic  leadscrew reverse on this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Monarch-10ee-/201665856506

Other options if I where to spend close to 10K or more with shipping would be something new like an ERL-1340, RML-1440, or PM1440GT. These models are branded under different names, all of these are precision machines and have a wider working envelope. There are also the Grizzly/SB models, the latter are at 50% off. These look to be rebranded ERL and RML machines.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/erl-1340.39331/
http://www.kentusa.com/lathes-2/manual-precision-series/rml-1440vt-manual-precision-lathe/
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1660G.html
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-1440GTLathe.html
http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-x-40-Lathe-220V/SB1012?utm_campaign=zPage


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 11, 2016)

with all do respect.  There is no comparison between a budget Asian machine with gear head and a belt driven Ultra High Precision machine like a 10ee or HLVH.  Factory spec on 10ee is 6 inch length stock turned between centers, variation in turned diameter < .00005"  with hi grade surface finish, good luck hitting half a tenth with good surface finish with a Taiwanese machine weighing half as much and having gear head.  These are high precision machines thru and thru, not just on the name plate decal.   I own Griz 1640 RML type machine, not bad, but for 15K its not even close to being in the same league as my well worn 60 year old 10ee.  There is a reason Monarch can sell rebuilt machines for the prices they do.  They are real deal.  If threading is your passion maybe get a HLVH instead, but for a general purpose High precision machine 10ee is hard to beat.  If you are really interested in 10ee you need to spend some time operating one, if its in good shape and you can get along with its envelope and operating behavior I think you would find it not to be comparable to a gear head lathe made to a price point.   I use my Grizzly lathe a lot, but if I want to nail a piece to a tight tolerance its the 10ee.  The EE is a joy to operate, everything moves like it was built by Mercedes or BMW.   Everything on the Griz moves like it was made by Ford if you get my drift.  

michael


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## MattM (Sep 11, 2016)

mksj said:


> I would check freight and shipping, it could be significant. I also do not follow the weight as being listed as 2500lb, other listings/brochure for this model  are closer to 3500lb. I would be hesitant to pay that much for a machine and not be able to evaluate it up front, but the description seems reasonable and fair. There is another 10EE for much less that seems to be in good working order at 1/2 the price and make an offer.  At the asking price or less, I would have less reservations about buying it site unseen. A little elbow work and some paint and looks like it would be a very nice machine. It appears to be a newer model, comes with a taper turning attachment and I believe it has an electronic  leadscrew reverse on this one.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Monarch-10ee-/201665856506
> 
> Other options if I where to spend close to 10K or more with shipping would be something new like an ERL-1340, RML-1440, or PM1440GT. These models are branded under different names, all of these are precision machines and have a wider working envelope. There are also the Grizzly/SB models, the latter are at 50% off. These look to be rebranded ERL and RML machines.
> ...


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## MattM (Sep 11, 2016)

Doubleeboy said:


> with all do respect.  There is no comparison between a budget Asian machine with gear head and a belt driven Ultra High Precision machine like a 10ee or HLVH.  Factory spec on 10ee is 6 inch length stock turned between centers, variation in turned diameter < .00005"  with hi grade surface finish, good luck hitting half a tenth with good surface finish with a Taiwanese machine weighing half as much and having gear head.  These are high precision machines thru and thru, not just on the name plate decal.   I own Griz 1640 RML type machine, not bad, but for 15K its not even close to being in the same league as my well worn 60 year old 10ee.  There is a reason Monarch can sell rebuilt machines for the prices they do.  They are real deal.  If threading is your passion maybe get a HLVH instead, but for a general purpose High precision machine 10ee is hard to beat.  If you are really interested in 10ee you need to spend some time operating one, if its in good shape and you can get along with its envelope and operating behavior I think you would find it not to be comparable to a gear head lathe made to a price point.   I use my Grizzly lathe a lot, but if I want to nail a piece to a tight tolerance its the 10ee.  The EE is a joy to operate, everything moves like it was built by Mercedes or BMW.   Everything on the Griz moves like it was made by Ford if you get my drift.
> 
> michael



That is my exact impression after doing much on the line research and talking with several oldtime retired machinists, one with more than 60 years in the biz


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## JimDawson (Sep 11, 2016)

MattM said:


> Problem is it is 1,700 miles distant so I cannot examine it. I would hate to have it arrive on my doorstep and find it not good.
> 
> Suggestions and advice?



Road trip


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## MattM (Sep 11, 2016)

That's a least four days on the road and one day there.  I have a nice big Tundra that could haul it, but by the time you add up the gas and good motels  and restaurants (the Wife don't do Motel 6 and Applebees) I'm bucks ahead hiring a trucking company.


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 11, 2016)

If you decide to buy it and hire the moving contact me for some thoughts on not ruining a 10ee while moving.  The machine should be picked up by fork lift from back side only, but it needs to be blocked with substantial timber spacers to protect taper attachment.  Do not let anyone tell you its okay to pick up by spindle, its not, there are only 2 bearings on spindle, put several thousand pounds of pressure on them in wrong direction, you will no longer get surface finish you are paying for.   Fork lift or sling on eyebolt mounted to bed infront of spindle about 1 foot, its in the manual.  If picked up by fork lift, block it and strap it before moving lift, if the rigger wont do it right and guarantee no damage get a better rigger.   If its a tube model, you want to slide out the WiaD, remove tubes, slide WiaD back in and secure.   lathe with taper and closer, and the very large 3 hp motor weights 3250 lbs.  The 5 hp machines weight a little less, the motor generator machines about the same.  You want a 5000 lb fork lift with long forks, good brakes , side shift and triple mast if you are going to get it in a garage with 8 foot doors, 7 foot doors, you likely will not be able to drive in door.   One final thought, make sure lathe has back gear still installed and working.  Unless its a Monarch retro fit with 7 to 10 hp, they have no low end torque or speed without back gear.  My machine will turn 8 rpm and take everyone reading this and throw them across room before stalling, with out back gear anything less than 200 rpm is pretty worthless unless its the Monarch retro fit.

any questions message me
michael


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## MattM (Sep 11, 2016)

Doubleeboy said:


> If you decide to buy it and hire the moving contact me for some thoughts on not ruining a 10ee while moving.  The machine should be picked up by fork lift from back side only, but it needs to be blocked with substantial timber spacers to protect taper attachment.  Do not let anyone tell you its okay to pick up by spindle, its not, there are only 2 bearings on spindle, put several thousand pounds of pressure on them in wrong direction, you will no longer get surface finish you are paying for.   Fork lift or sling on eyebolt mounted to bed infront of spindle about 1 foot, its in the manual.  If picked up by fork lift, block it and strap it before moving lift, if the rigger wont do it right and guarantee no damage get a better rigger.   If its a tube model, you want to slide out the WiaD, remove tubes, slide WiaD back in and secure.   lathe with taper and closer, and the very large 3 hp motor weights 3250 lbs.  The 5 hp machines weight a little less, the motor generator machines about the same.  You want a 5000 lb fork lift with long forks, good brakes , side shift and triple mast if you are going to get it in a garage with 8 foot doors, 7 foot doors, you likely will not be able to drive in door.   One final thought, make sure lathe has back gear still installed and working.  Unless its a Monarch retro fit with 7 to 10 hp, they have no low end torque or speed without back gear.  My machine will turn 8 rpm and take everyone reading this and throw them across room before stalling, with out back gear anything less than 200 rpm is pretty worthless unless its the Monarch retro fit.
> 
> any questions message me
> michael



Thank you.  I am going to print this and discuss it with the seller, if I decide to buy.


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## MattM (Sep 11, 2016)

Doubleeboy said:


> If you decide to buy it and hire the moving contact me for some thoughts on not ruining a 10ee while moving.  The machine should be picked up by fork lift from back side only, but it needs to be blocked with substantial timber spacers to protect taper attachment.  Do not let anyone tell you its okay to pick up by spindle, its not, there are only 2 bearings on spindle, put several thousand pounds of pressure on them in wrong direction, you will no longer get surface finish you are paying for.   Fork lift or sling on eyebolt mounted to bed infront of spindle about 1 foot, its in the manual.  If picked up by fork lift, block it and strap it before moving lift, if the rigger wont do it right and guarantee no damage get a better rigger.   If its a tube model, you want to slide out the WiaD, remove tubes, slide WiaD back in and secure.   lathe with taper and closer, and the very large 3 hp motor weights 3250 lbs.  The 5 hp machines weight a little less, the motor generator machines about the same.  You want a 5000 lb fork lift with long forks, good brakes , side shift and triple mast if you are going to get it in a garage with 8 foot doors, 7 foot doors, you likely will not be able to drive in door.   One final thought, make sure lathe has back gear still installed and working.  Unless its a Monarch retro fit with 7 to 10 hp, they have no low end torque or speed without back gear.  My machine will turn 8 rpm and take everyone reading this and throw them across room before stalling, with out back gear anything less than 200 rpm is pretty worthless unless its the Monarch retro fit.
> 
> any questions message me
> michael


 
Once delivered can I use a pallet jack to move it off the liftgate and into my shop (same level as the driveway)?


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 11, 2016)

Questions to ask, why asre they selling, who ran it, did that person run it exclusively, what year is it, if tubes have they replaced the C16J s, they last a very long time, mine are over 4o years old, but they cost like stink, and if the tubes are very old or machine will not hit top rpm and stay steady with good stability under load, you either have a misadjusted set up and or more likely old and tired tubes.  Not the end of world, but when some rummy says excellent condition and the 3000 rpm machine will only hit 2200 and still be stable you know they are bs ing or don't know their head from their bottom.  Does it have original steady, faceplate, follow rest, cumulative cross slide dial, ELS, taper, knock out bar, nose cone for 5c or 2J collets, collet closer.  Is it a 3 hp or 5 hp machine, round dial, or square dial, old height or new height, is the tailstock the correct size for machine they get lost and replaced.  A machine from the 80s that is dead stock and metric, english with all the goodies could easily go 30K.  A round dial machine clapped out with little extras could go for scrap.  As an example my half way decent tooled 1956 WiaD 3 hp machine with taper attachment and collet closer, faceplate, 2 chucks, nose piece cost me 5K delivered.  If my machine had fewer hours on it and less wear I think it could have brought more.  I would not buy a high precision antique with out being able to use it first unless the person was an acknowledged expert on all things ee and I only know a very few of those, most of em hang periodically on the Monarch board at PM, there are a couple others.

I know that some machine shops won't buy an EE, they go Hardinge or Sharp exclusively.   At one time Raytheon had nothing but MG EEs for precision, their tech liked the motor generator models, which are now all over 50 years old closer to 60 or more actually.   As of 2000 Raytheon was still running them.   

I spent 2 years looking at lots of machines, several air flights, long drives, most every machine was misrepresented either intentionally or by lack of knowledge.  Its going to be up to you to determine if its a good machine.  If I had it to do over I would have kept looking but that said I love my machine and do not regret it, but in 13 years or so, I have been down maybe 4 or 5 months, trying to figure out what 50 year old piece of wire, or contact or resistor had gone intermittent or bad.   BTW there are different rpm machines, its all in the pulley size, tach top rpm will tell you what it should do.

cheers
michael


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## MattM (Sep 11, 2016)

Thanks again.  I had a long conversation with the owner.  He used to run this machine and (naturally) speaks very highly of it.  When the bottom dropped out of the coal industry in Colorado the company went under and he bought some of the machinery which he is now selling.

He seemed honest and forthcoming but in the final analysis any long distance deal with an unknown party is a crapshoot.  Worst case: if it is junk I could probably part it out and get at least some money back.


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## mksj (Sep 11, 2016)

Doubleeboy said:


> with all do respect. There is no comparison between a budget Asian machine with gear head and a belt driven Ultra High Precision machine like a 10ee or HLVH. Factory spec on 10ee is 6 inch length stock turned between centers, variation in turned diameter < .00005" with hi grade surface finish, good luck hitting half a tenth with good surface finish with a Taiwanese machine weighing half as much and having gear head. These are high precision machines thru and thru, not just on the name plate decal.



When I was looking for lathes, I briefly considered a 10EE, and would love to have one. They where stat of the art in there time and are fantastic machines, and yes there is no comparison to a machine that lists at 10K new. But, the 10EE  in decent condition were 15-25K when I looked a while back and most machinists I spoke to felt they where overpriced. Get one for less, well plan on spending some time working on it, and parts can be very expensive. You may get lucky, but most likely not.  My point is not which is better, but to answer the question of what are reasonable options given the budget,  that it is site unseen, and the extensive potential issues and problems that you have pointed out could and most likely will  be an issue with this type of machine. As a hobbyist I can consistently squeeze 0.0005" out of my "Taiwanese" machine, do I need to go an order of magnitude better, not really. Do I need a mirror finish on a cut, no. If that is what you are seeking then maybe you should consider something like a 618EVS for 15K, otherwise you may need to put considerable research, effort and money into your 10EE search.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Super-Precision-EVS-Threading-Collet-Lathe/SB1008


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## AlbertNakaji (Sep 11, 2016)

Help me to understand this:  The link goes to a machine listed on Ebay.  Price is $8,200 + $63.40 for shipping via USPS Priority Mail.  How would this be sent via USPS Priority Mail, and how would shipping cost only $63.40?



MattM said:


> Thinking on buying this one:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181919707101?ul_noapp=true
> 
> I talked with the owner who seems to be  truthful and honorable and I believe the machine to be as represented.
> ...


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## MattM (Sep 11, 2016)

AlbertNakaji said:


> Help me to understand this:  The link goes to a machine listed on Ebay.  Price is $8,200 + $63.40 for shipping via USPS Priority Mail.  How would this be sent via USPS Priority Mail, and how would shipping cost only $63.40?



That was my first question to the seller.  He said it was an artifact that ebay would not him let omit.  He stated and it is stated that all costs of transport will be paid by the buyer.  Read the entire ad and you will see he clearly states shipping parameters.


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## JimDawson (Sep 12, 2016)

Matt, this one might be worth a look.  https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/5777715367.html

It's been on CL a few times, maybe it's scrap metal, I dunno.


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## MattM (Sep 12, 2016)

JimDawson said:


> Matt, this one might be worth a look.  https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/5777715367.html
> 
> It's been on CL a few times, maybe it's scrap metal, I dunno.



Thank you, that certainly is worth looking at since it is only three hours away.  Looks a little rough but at that price could be doable.


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## MattM (Sep 12, 2016)

Talked with the owner.  This a "project machine" and he has another older 10EE that is "almost" in running condition.  You can buy both for $7.500.00 but I'm not interested.  Could be a good deal for someone; finish them both sell one and come out with a "free" 10EE.

That is what he planned to do then other life forces took over...


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## JimDawson (Sep 12, 2016)

If I needed another project I would go buy them.  I don't think I could even get them in my shop right now, need to get some other project done first.


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## MattM (Sep 12, 2016)

Sorta the way I feel.  We are planning on selling and moving and I don't need another 6 to 8k pounds of iron to move.  But if I was fully ensconced in a new shop I would be interested.


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## Karl_T (Sep 15, 2016)

If you do pull the trigger on that one, let me know.  I've had two 10EEs, won't part with the one in my shop, ever.

The eBay one almost certainly has the thyratron drive.  VERY difficult to repair. I replaced the drive with a VFD and three phase motor, keeping the back gear out of the old DC motor. Prices on VFDs have come WAY down since I did this job. If I were doing it over, I'd get a 7.5 or 10 hp motor and VFD and forget the backgear. This could could be installed in a couple evenings.

I did note a missing bracket on the taper attachment in the eBay offer

Karl


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## MattM (Sep 19, 2016)

Bought the Texas machine.  Pick up this Wednesday delivery in 4-5 days.  I am well pleased (and hope to be when it gets here.)


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## MattM (Sep 19, 2016)

Bought the Texas machine.  Pick up this Wednesday deliver in 4-5 days.


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## Karl_T (Sep 20, 2016)

With all that tooling, you did very well. have you checked tooling prices for the 10EE?

You will be extremely happy with this late model machine.

Pretty sure this era of 10EE used the thyratron drive. Use it while it works. If it needs more than minor maintenance, I'd suggest installing a 10hp 3 phase motor and VFD.  I did 5hp and re-used the back gear on mine but with today's VFD prices, I'd just go larger motor if I were to go down this road again.


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 20, 2016)

I notice Mason leveling feet on machine photo sitting on skid.  My experience with Mason levelers is they are for manufacturing conveyors and the like.  They are dreadful on a machine tool, the machine will vibrate and rock sitting on them.  I fooled around with them for a year or so before I gave up.

Best of luck
michael


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## MattM (Sep 20, 2016)

It has two large tubes.  Does that constitute a thyratron drive?

  If I go 10hp I'd have to get a larger 3 phase converter, my present one is 7.5hp.

I'm thinking on getting a DRO.  Any suggestions?


Doubleeboy said:


> I notice Mason leveling feet on machine photo sitting on skid.  My experience with Mason levelers is they are for manufacturing conveyors and the like.  They are dreadful on a machine tool, the machine will vibrate and rock sitting on them.  I fooled around with them for a year or so before I gave up.
> 
> Best of luck
> michael


 
Michael---Thank you.  What do you suggest?---Matt


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 20, 2016)

I like bolts with nuts and flat washers, 5/8" diameter holes on my 1956 lathe.  I just let machine sit on the head of bolt, grind the grade marking off first.   Only down side is you have to jack lathe up to get bolt in hole with head side down.  I am old with a bad back.  So I built a crude toe jack.  There are plans on you tube if you like or you can pay a few hundred and buy one ready made.  Jet makes a nice one, get your check book out though.  If you use a toe jack make sure you are lifting on cast iron base and not that pretty aluminum cover.    When I first got my machine I had it sit on 4 x 4 blocks run front to back , about 3 foot long.  Worked fine but lathe was an inch too high for me.   So I went with Mason feet, the orange ones, that lead to nothing but problems, surface finish went south, vibration issues.  Now I have it on bolts and check level every year, much nicer.

I would not be surprised it you don't have start up problems with a 7.5 hp rotary converter, give it a try but if it wont fire up easy, you may need a 10 or twelve.   Might check on the PM board and see what folks say about your model and phase conversion.   As I mentioned in phone call, Donnie is man on machines of your vintage over there.

michael


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## Karl_T (Sep 20, 2016)

MattM said:


> It has two large tubes.  Does that constitute a thyratron drive?
> 
> If I go 10hp I'd have to get a larger 3 phase converter, my present one is 7.5hp.
> 
> ...



Yep, those are thyratron tubes. The standard joke here is you need to be a EE to repair this drive. Note, if its not broke, don't fix it.

If you go to a 10hp motor and VFD, I'd hook it up to single phase 220 myself. 30 amp breaker would be plenty.  if you do want to run the rotary converter to the VFD for some reason, the 7.5 hp system will be plenty. You will never use anywhere near full hp, you just need low end torque when you are running at 5% of full motor RPM. Note get a 1200 rpm not a 1750, you'll have more low end and you can still spin this motor up to 4000.

IMHO, this lathe deserves the best. I put an Accurite DRO with their best scale on the X axis. With a good system like this, working to 2 tenths accuracy is easy.


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## MattM (Sep 20, 2016)

It is 220 single phase.  Is this good, bad, or terrible?


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## Karl_T (Sep 21, 2016)

MattM said:


> It is 220 single phase.  Is this good, bad, or terrible?



Great, if it runs and you don't need to do anything. Very good chance the truck trip kills those 40 years old vacuum tubes.

Karl


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## MattM (Sep 21, 2016)

He removed the tubes and packaged them separately.  Pictures show they are very well wrapped and padded.  I hope they survive.

He said the machine is "plug and play" except for a short warmup time for the tubes.


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## wrmiller (Sep 21, 2016)

Cut my teeth on vacuum tubes early in my engineering schools, so reading this is like going back in time. Can the tubes be sourced today? Vacuum tubes cannot take sharp jolts as the wires to the various components (cathode, plate, grid, etc.) are quite fragile. You may want to take the vacuum tubes with you if possible.

It would be cool to see a schematic of the power supply for that thing. Maybe I should look into a Monarch?

EDIT: The guy is correct about the 'warmup time', as tubes are not instant on like solid state devices. The heater circuit for the tube's cathode needs time to warm up. We used to use delay circuits/relays in high-power stereo amps to allow a brief time for the tubes to warm up.


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## MattM (Sep 21, 2016)

Can't take them with as I am in Oregon and the lathe is in Texas.  It is coming by motor-freight, scheduled for pickup today.

A manual is included.  If it has a schematic I would be happy to copy and send to you.

Never heard of Monarch before a few weeks ago when I saw some on e-bay.  I became fascinated and did a lot of reading on them.  The more I read the the more I knew I had to have one.  Before the Monarch I was seriously considering one of the Grizzy gunsmith lathes for about half of what I paid for a 40 year old Monarch.

Hope I made the right decision.  If not it will be for sale right here.


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## MattM (Sep 21, 2016)

PS There is one for sale in Hotchkiss CO.  I seriously considered it, talked with the owner and made an offer.  It was quite a bit more than what I paid and it was an older machine.  We couldn't agree on a price.

I think it is still up on e-bay.  It is the blue one for $8200.00


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 21, 2016)

Those c16J  tubes are built like a brick poop house, mine are dated as checked and okay 1976.  You can still get em new for a medium fortune or search out used ones that are guaranteed on ebone.   They are not the tubes from your grandpas phonograph, they are industrial workhorses.  They powered the lighting rigs in theatres back in the day when the lights were DC for their controllability factor.  They were also used in huge industrial welders.  Monarch could have chosen any scheme they wanted to build their no compromises toolroom lathe.  For over 30 years they stuck with tubes, no surprise.  If the tubes do crap out and you want a cheaper alternative rewire and remount for much cheaper and lower hp capable C6J, wont have the hp but who cares, 1 hp DC would still throw you and a few friends across the shop if needed.  Even wired with c6j you would still have about same power as HLVH.   In my opinion, the tubes are not the weak link in a 1970s machine, its the caps , resistors, and rusty chokes that are likely to cause problems.

You will likely happily run your machine for years and years in a home shop environment with no problems and be miles ahead of having bought a price point machine from China.

michael

btw, a 10ee will run with only one working tube, albeit at reduced speed.


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## wrmiller (Sep 21, 2016)

Ah...C16Js. Control diode/rectifier if my memory is correct. And yea, those are commercial tubes. Very well built.

Michael: I like your comments about the passive components. Were I ever to get one, I might have to re-work with more modern pieces.


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## Eddyde (Sep 21, 2016)

I looked up the tubes!
http://www.newark.com/richardson-electronics/5665-c16j/electron-tube/dp/05F9663


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## MattM (Sep 21, 2016)

Think I'll buy five to save a few hundred bucks.


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## JimDawson (Sep 21, 2016)

Eddyde said:


> I looked up the tubes!
> http://www.newark.com/richardson-electronics/5665-c16j/electron-tube/dp/05F9663




OUCH!


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## John Hasler (Sep 21, 2016)

Those industrial thyratrons are robust and reliable.  If necessary they could be replaced by SCRs with suitable control circuitry.  The entire motor control could also be replaced with a modern design.  Ripping it all out and installing an induction motor would be a travesty.


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## wrmiller (Sep 21, 2016)

Yea, they are basically diodes used to full-wave rectify the incoming A/C. Back then semiconductors were incapable of high current or high voltage. My first 'electronics' job was repairing radios and TVs in my HS electronics instructor's garage shop. Anyone remember the Quasar works in a drawer TV? It had transistors for the low voltage circuits in the drawer, but used tubes for the high powered sweep circuits for the CRT/picture tube. And then there was that nasty flyback step-up transformer that powered the high-voltage anode on the side of the CRT. Got knocked on my butt a few times by that 30kv plus circuit. Thank goodness it was very low current. I only twitched for a couple of hours after getting nailed.

But yea, I would prefer to update the drive if possible, rather than replace it. I've known for years that DC motors are WAY smoother than the old A/C motors of 50+ years ago. This is why some company's went to great lengths to come up with alternatives both electrical and mechanical for the high-precision lathes of the day. Give me a 3 hp BLDC with a uber quiet power supply, nicely filtered and isolated, and I could make that bad boy sing.

Although a good VFD and quality 3-phase motor would come close enough to likely make the difference marginal at best. But hey, it's a Monarch!


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## Karl_T (Sep 22, 2016)

The 10EE of this era uses an extremely complex drive that adjusts voltages to both the field and armature to give maximum torque over a range of 30:1. this all done without semi conductors. Today's drives  leave one constant, often with permanent magnets, and employ semi conductor technology. Still, you don't get the large range of speed and torque that monarch obtained 50 years ago.

The repair issue is all the parts have degraded in this analog system at 50 years age. So, which parts should be replaced when its not completely broke but not working like it used to?

I had the same problem with a very old car. so, I jacked up the radiator cap and replaced everything underneath.   IMHO, do the same with the 10EE. Shop for a used 10hp 1200 rpm 3 phase motor ahead of time as it may take a bit of searching to find this.


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## MattM (Sep 22, 2016)

Thanks for the tip.  Found one for $200 on CL less than 5 miles from home.  Is that a good price?


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## JimDawson (Sep 22, 2016)

MattM said:


> Thanks for the tip.  Found one for $200 on CL less than 5 miles from home.  Is that a good price?



$200 for a 10 HP 1200 RPM motor is a pretty good price.  New price is around $1900


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## wrmiller (Sep 22, 2016)

Karl_T said:


> The 10EE of this era uses an extremely complex drive that adjusts voltages to both the field and armature to give maximum torque over a range of 30:1. this all done without semi conductors. Today's drives  leave one constant, often with permanent magnets, and employ semi conductor technology. Still, you don't get the large range of speed and torque that monarch obtained 50 years ago.
> 
> The repair issue is all the parts have degraded in this analog system at 50 years age. So, which parts should be replaced when its not completely broke but not working like it used to?
> 
> I had the same problem with a very old car. so, I jacked up the radiator cap and replaced everything underneath.   IMHO, do the same with the 10EE. Shop for a used 10hp 1200 rpm 3 phase motor ahead of time as it may take a bit of searching to find this.



We live in an analog, not digital world. Sometimes analog solutions for certain scenarios would still be preferable today, but digital is faster to design/build, less costly, and 'close enough' for most markets.

Question? Why do you need a 10 hp motor on basically a 10x20 precision lathe? Just curious.


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## John Hasler (Sep 22, 2016)

Karl_T said:


> The 10EE of this era uses an extremely complex drive that adjusts voltages to both the field and armature to give maximum torque over a range of 30:1. this all done without semi conductors. Today's drives leave one constant, often with permanent magnets, and employ semi conductor technology. Still, you don't get the large range of speed and torque that monarch obtained 50 years ago.


Both armature and field can be controlled with semiconductor controls.  Even with PM motors (used because they are more efficient and cheaper) 20:1 full torque speed control is possible with feedback and a PID controller (which can be implemented in a $5 microcontroller).  Give me control of the field and I can easily push that up to 30:1.

If I had one of those Monarchs I'd try hard to keep the thyratron system working just so I could watch them glow, but if I couldn't I'd still keep the original motor and control concept.  You'll never match it with an induction motor + VFD.  You'd have to go to a BLDC system which would cost as much as the lathe.


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 22, 2016)

wrmiller said:


> We live in an analog, not digital world. Sometimes analog solutions for certain scenarios would still be preferable today, but digital is faster to design/build, less costly, and 'close enough' for most markets.
> 
> Question? Why do you need a 10 hp motor on basically a 10x20 precision lathe? Just curious.



Bill, when you take out the stock Monarch WiaD or later drive and replace it with VFD driven motor usually the back gear is removed.  The original tube drive and its later versions with less tubes and more semi conductors had a pretty sophisticated servo feedback arrangement controlling all aspects of the motors windings  (if I understand this correctly).   So when you take out the back gear, if you want consistent spindle  speed under a variety of loads you need a massive amount of hp to make up for the loss of low end torque at slow speeds. 

On my dead stock 1956 WiaD machine you can slow spindle down to 8 rpm, have a smooth surface mounted on spindle like a bare faceplate, try to grab it with your hands to slow it down, won't happen, the drive senses the load and increases the field I believe to make up for the new increased load.  Same deal at high rpms.  It was and is a brilliant system seeing as they came up with this in the very early 1950s as an improvement on the motor generator set up which had similar capabilities.  This system was taken to its absurd limits in the incredible 1000ee which had lots more C16Js, way more horse power, constant surface speed and every wiz bang control feature possible.  The guy I bought my lathe from years ago has one, says it makes the 10ee look primitive and small.

When I went looking for an ee I looked at numerous do over machines, some very expensive jobs with huge outboard ss control boards, none of em worked as good as a WiaD machine that was operating half decently.   One 7 hp conversion I looked at had the bill, 22000 bucks spent on it, funac controls, except the idiots took out the back gear and I could stall machine easily with my hands at speeds under 200 or so rpm.   That experience was repeated several times before I ruled out converted machines unless they were done by Monarch and no one was selling one of those.    I am sure others can describe the drive better than I , all I know is conversion machines basically are a sad replica of what the Lion of Sydney figured out 60 plus years ago with tubes.   BTW they swing 12.5" according to build plate and I measure 13.25"

cheers
michael


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## wrmiller (Sep 22, 2016)

I have worked on similar analog closed-loop systems. Been a long time though. I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have, but this would make for an interesting conversation for another thread on drive control systems.


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## John Hasler (Sep 22, 2016)

MattM said:


> A manual is included. If it has a schematic I would be happy to copy and send to you.


I'd also like to see it.


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## John Hasler (Sep 22, 2016)

wrmiller said:


> We live in an analog, not digital world. Sometimes analog solutions for certain scenarios would still be preferable today, but digital is faster to design/build, less costly, and 'close enough' for most markets.


I started my engineering career designing analog motor controls.  Digital isn't just 'close enough'.  Modern digital systems can equal or exceed the capabilities of any analog system while still being less expensive and more reliable.


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## wrmiller (Sep 22, 2016)

MattM said:


> A manual is included.  If it has a schematic I would be happy to copy and send to you.



Missed this! You bet I'd be interested in the schematic. Might be a cool trip down memory lane. Besides, one just never knows...


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## wrmiller (Sep 22, 2016)

John Hasler said:


> I started my engineering career designing analog motor controls.  Digital isn't just 'close enough'.  Modern digital systems can equal or exceed the capabilities of any analog system while still being less expensive and more reliable.



Easy there big guy, wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers. And I agree (see my comments about a BLDC...), so I'll just mark this down to a poor choice of words on my part. When I said "scenarios" I believe I was thinking my my old Carver and Macintosh amps. In stereos I could care less how good the specs are on a digital amp, I still prefer the 'warm' sound of a high-end analog tube-type class A amplifier.


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 22, 2016)

If you want a schematic, call Monarch give them serial # of machine and they will send you one for a fee.   The folks at Monarch are pleasant and accommodating.   Some of their prices are modest some are very high.   They can also tell you over phone how that machine was shipped originally.  If I were looking to buy a specific machine that had been around the block a bit I would certainly call Monarch first for a little history.  I don't know if Scott is still there, but he was a wealth of info for me when I bought mine years ago.

If the price of schematic is way high, you might ask over at PM if any of the chaps have one, that is where I got my generic one that covered early Wiad machines.

michael


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## Karl_T (Sep 22, 2016)

"Question? Why do you need a 10 hp motor on basically a 10x20 precision lathe? Just curious. "

VFD are constant torque below 100% speed. So, at 5% speed, 60 RPM, you got 1/2 hp. remember hp is speed times torque. Need that much to thread, most common use of very low rpm.

Also, yes $200 for a 10hp motor is a good deal. of course, somebody will come along and say they got one for $10.

I'd buy just for the insurance.

Karl


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## MattM (Sep 28, 2016)

The lathe arrived yesterday all in one piece with only a small scratch on the tailstock.  The machine is a thing of beauty.  Bill did a great refurb job.  It is now sitting in my shop ready to be hooked up.  All that is required is a dryer plug and then into the 220vac single phase.

I have all the schematics and there are a lot of them.  They are actual blueprints, old and fragile.  I have no way of copying them and I'm sure Staples would charge a bunch and I don't know about quality of the finished product.

If anyone wants to borrow them to make copies let me know.


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## wrmiller (Sep 28, 2016)

Glad it got there in one piece. Enjoy your new toy...err...lathe.


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## MattM (Sep 28, 2016)

Got it plugged in, threw the switch, the blower came on, also a loud vibrating electrical sound, definitely not mechanical.  After a short interval the amber light went on, the sound did not abate.

The motor was not running as none of the controls worked.

I called Bill but he is in Deer camp out of cell range.

Any input?


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## JimDawson (Sep 28, 2016)

Hmmmm....That's not good

Was the machine wired for 230V single phase?  I assume that's what you have.  A loose wire on a relay or switch maybe?


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## MattM (Sep 28, 2016)

Yes, it came wired for 22o single phase.


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## JimDawson (Sep 28, 2016)

As crazy as this is going to sound, check the stop button and make sure the contacts are making good contact.  Then maybe start looking for any other possible loose connections.

EDIT:

Maybe also check your input voltage with the machine powered up, it almost sounds like a contactor bouncing.


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## Doubleeboy (Sep 28, 2016)

Depending on what timer relay you have in machine it will not spin for 30 or 60 seconds, you hit the green button to fire it up after warm up period.  Also check that your forward neutral reverse switch is not caught between poles.  Usually they are wired so lever towards the tailstock is reverse,  towards headstock is forward and in between is neutral, although I have seen them reversed.   Also check that your spindle lock is released, there is a switch on it for safety, so if its locked no spindle rotation.    I did not know a 2 tube machine could run on single phase, but then again I don't own one.

michael


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## Karl_T (Sep 28, 2016)

Remember KISS. (Keep it simple stupid) Look all over for something that came loose. The old girl has taken quite a bumpy ride.

Good luck

If this don't work, you might as well get on with that VFD upgrade. Then it will run for another 50 years.

Karl


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## MattM (Sep 28, 2016)

Well "Uncle" Bill solved the problem.  It was the solinoid in hatch that is under the tailstock.  It was not closing into the hole in the door which caused the annoying racket.

With a little messing around with my middle digit I got it to obey.

Now the machine is running and sounding like The Wife's 75 year old Singer.  I'm happy.  After dinner I'll be making CHIPS.


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## MattM (Sep 28, 2016)

Turned a few swarfs and chips on 10L14 scrap.  Now I see why Monarchs are the greatest.  Smooth, slick, intuitive,  and quiet all the way up to 4000rpm.  Threading should be a pleasure.

I truly don't deserve this fine machine.  It is WAY above my skill level.  I will do my best to honor it and pass it along when I go to thar Great Machine Shop in The Sky.


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## mksj (Sep 29, 2016)

Very nice, look forward to some photos of it in action. Looking at the schematic, the lathe runs off of L1 and L3, the control circuits run off of a 115VAC reference circuit and the motor voltage is rectified DC. Three phase would be used for the optional coolant pump. They do give some test voltages and reference points in the manual I posted, but there is significant voltages in the circuit. There are taps to set the filament heater voltages, tubes can be very finicky when it come to the heater voltages, the manuals specifies +/-5%. Assuming you have 230-240VAC coming in, you might check at some point (with the power disconnected) that the inputs for T-6 and T-7 are connected to the Black (common) and Green (237V) tap are connected to L1 and L3. You might keep your eye at for some spare C16J tubes if they come up at the right price. I have a few thousand tubes, but mostly for audio gear.


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## MattM (Oct 1, 2016)

Been learning the machine.  Had to tweak the tailstock a little used my laser in a 3/8 collet.

Had a piece of 1.25 drill rod which I turned down about three inches on each end to one inch on my Clausing.  Then I center drilled each end and chucked one end in a one inch collet on the Monarch.  The other end was held in a live center.

Turned it at 1200 rpm.  The finish was beautiful, runout over 11 inches was about .003 all of which was within 3 inches of the tailstock.  Is this good, bad or indifferent?

Tomorrow I'm going to reverse the piece and see what happens.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 1, 2016)

3 thou on 11 inch piece that thick is dreadful.  Bad center, or tailstock is tilting up or down too much.  I would bet there are shims in between 2 sections of tailstock and that you need to reshim, but something is very wrong.  Even on a well used machine that is no longer in spec you should be able to hold a couple tenths.     I would not worry too much yet that it is a bed wear issue, that is a metric boatload of runout, its likely a tailstock issue.  If this machine was once in a factory with several EEs, its possible you have the wrong tailstock for your machine, they were all hand scraped in to the particular machine, so you may have some shimming ahead of you.

Good to hear its running okay and you like the surface finish.
michael


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## MattM (Oct 1, 2016)

It is dead on until about the last three inches from the tailstock then it falls off the cliff.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 1, 2016)

MattM said:


> It is dead on until about the last three inches from the tailstock then it falls off the cliff.



If that is the case I suspect a lot of work was done on that part of the bed and you have some wear or maybe if you are lucky your carriage bearings are out of adjustment.  Its in the manual how to adjust them.   From experience,  if you cant adjust it out then its bed wear.   There is a great book on machine tool rebuilding, advertised in HSM usually (Conolly) that explains better than I how to check for bed wear, might be on line some where also.  My hunch is you have misadjusted bearing and some wear.  Is your Bijur oiler putting out oil to the four corners of carriage?   If not bed wear will be most likely, but like I mentioned you can set up to measure that.  You might look for a ding on bed way, that is causing issue.  Those ways are very hard but its possible a ding is throwing carriage off in one spot especially if the bearing for carriage are misadjusted.  If the bearing adjust fine to slightly difficult to turn by hand but tighten up especially in the area you are having troubles then its bed or saddle wear, most likely due to failed oiler or no oil.  

Time for a thorough proper set up of machine
michael


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## Karl_T (Oct 1, 2016)

MattM said:


> It is dead on until about the last three inches from the tailstock then it falls off the cliff.



certainly sounds like tailstock. You know it can easily be adjusted in/out.  I'd use an indicator on a piece of ground and polish rod with center drill. Mount the rod between centers and indicate at both ends to see what's going on.

I work to 2 tenths just for good habit on my 10EE. Once the DRO is setup I can make part after part always just right. It will have you plumb spoilt.  Every now and then I make a part on my 100 year old Leblond with babbit bearings just so I don't forget how to be a machinist. FWIW it has a 16" swing on a 120" bed, just a bit bigger than the 10EE.

Karl


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## MattM (Oct 1, 2016)

I meant to say headstock not tailstock.  I reversed the piece and same thing: dead on until about three inches from the headstock then dips 3-4 thousands.  I checked the tailstock again with my laser.  It is dead on.

I think a lot of work was done very close to the headstock because it came with a complete set of collets many of which have "bites" on their noses.  And the drawbar handwheel is worn smooth.

I'll closely examine the ways in front of the headstock.


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## chips&more (Oct 1, 2016)

MattM said:


> I meant to say headstock not tailstock.  I reversed the piece and same thing: dead on until about three inches from the headstock then dips 3-4 thousands.  I checked the tailstock again with my laser.  It is dead on.
> 
> I think a lot of work was done very close to the headstock because it came with a complete set of collets many of which have "bites" on their noses.  And the drawbar handwheel is worn smooth.
> 
> I'll closely examine the ways in front of the headstock.


I want to learn. Unless you are using a Laser Interferometer, how can you claim it’s dead on?...Dave


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 1, 2016)

try turning a small diameter like 3/8" between centers, maybe 4 to 6 inches long, with very sharp tool see how that correlates to the larger stock you turned.


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## mksj (Oct 1, 2016)

Have you checked the run-out/TIR of the collet/chuck. Have you tried a different chuck and do you get the same thing? I often see collet holders and standard scroll chucks with this kind of run-out, sometimes more.


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## MattM (Oct 1, 2016)

I used one of those laser edge finders.  It fits into a 3/8 collet. and shoots a beam at the live center.

I have a 12" piece of 5/8" ground and polished stock.  I'll chuck that and see how it clocks.

The ways seem OK no noticeable dings.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 1, 2016)

laser edge finder is not going to get job done IMHO.   Use tried and tested methods.  center drill shaft both ends turn between centers, and see what happens, adjust tailstock and see if you can get accurate results.  Might try Rolies Dad's method.  Lots of methods will work, the laser edge finder might get you in neighborhood for a wood lathe but for a 10ee or a HF mini lathe, not!


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## John Hasler (Oct 1, 2016)

MattM said:


> I used one of those laser edge finders.


What, exactly, did you do with it?


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## MattM (Oct 1, 2016)

Maybe I'll Sh-- can it.  Probably should, I've always been suspicious of it

OK here are the results of the test with the 5/8 ground bar:  spindle runout 0,00, chuck .002, work at chuck, .003, work at 8.5" .004.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 2, 2016)

Its really tough to realize your new gem is not perfect.  But until you go about it scientifically you are basically throwing darts at the wall hoping for a bullseye.   So level the lathe in both axis, let it calm down for a couple days or so, redo if necessary.  You need a .005" level at the least and preferably a .0005" level.   Then you need to center drill a shaft on both ends, turn between centers where the headstock center is trued by turning.  then turn the shaft and see where you are.  Using a 40 year old chuck to hold one end or using a clapped out collet chuck is not going to get you where you want to go.   You also need to adjust those saddle bearings on the carriage.  Like I said before and on the phone, the list of posts at PM is a huge resource, read thru all of em, might take a couple days, but compared to giving up on this machine it will be time well spent.   Even a worn EE can produce great work, but you need to spend the time dialing it in, figuring out where the problems are and then figuring out how to work around them.     Lots of issues affect end result, what is your backlash on cross slide, compound?   Do you have a lot of overhang on compound, if so you could have flex, especially if your screw has horrendous backlash.  Are you using a good tool post or some POS flimsy thing.  If those carriage bearings are not adjusted correctly you are pissing in the wind.   I don't mean to sound harsh, but you got yourself into this buying a freshly painted machine you had never seen in person or used in trial , its incumbent upon you to make the effort to sort it out,  If you come back for further input you would be wise to list a detailed list of what your last effort was and how it compared to past results.  Go about it scientifically, lay out all the facts and details.

michael


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## mksj (Oct 2, 2016)

So most of the run-out is the chuck, and then if you are using 5C collet that can add 1/2 to 1 thousandth, ther is also collet to collet variation. You might be able to tweak the chuck a bit, but even the best adjustable (set-tru) chucks can spec up to 0.004". You will also have a small amount of deflection of the bar at 8.5" and ground bar can be vary a 1/2 thousandth. When checking the TIR at different point along the rod, I look at the +/- swing around 0, so if +/-.001 at the chuck,  I would expect +/- 0.002 at 8.5". If the swing is more in one direction then the piece may be skewed in the chuck or an alignment issue.  Adding it all up, it is pretty darn good. I think you are getting a little tapering at the chuck vs. the tailstock because of the TIR, but there are many factors. If you have a 4J independent you could zero out the TIR at the chuck.  Laser alignment in this setting is not a good idea.


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## JimDawson (Oct 2, 2016)

MattM said:


> I used one of those laser edge finders.



That will get you kinda close, more or less, sorta.   I have one of these and it works pretty good on my router for locating my 0-0 point, but that just has to be kinda close because I normally leave at least 1/8 inch for trim.  It's useless on the mill for accurate locating, never tried it on the lathe.


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## MattM (Oct 2, 2016)

Thanks for all the good advice.  I guess I'm in a whole new world with this Monarch and have much to learn and much to do for me to realize its full potential.  I'm thinking (hoping) it is basically sound and just needs minor adjustment.  The laser has been taken to the wood shed where it shall remain.

A retired machinist friend is coming over today and I'll get his input.

What I need to decide is a course of action beginning with the least invasive and proceeding to ...?  I guess the first step is to make damn sure the tailstock is aligned.  Then taking off the collet chuck and mounting the 3-jaw ( I don't have a 4-jaw for this machine) and turning that 11" piece between centers.

Any suggestions for "order of operations" greatly appreciated.


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## Karl_T (Oct 2, 2016)

I second most the things doubleeboy says...

One difference though, this lathe is so damn rigid you can't do anything with leveling. Most lathes will twist slightly, not the 10EE. I know, I tried.

I really doubt you have bed wear. The ways are flame hardened and  the only way I see these wearing is if they were using it to make graphite tooling or similar for years. You need top drawer quality chucks and collets for this machine.  I do a lot a work with adjust true chucks and also softjaws.

From what I've read, you need to go through the carriage. The old girl deserves a rebuild every 50 years or so.


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## MattM (Oct 2, 2016)

Go through the carriage?  Is this DIY or a job for the Monarch shop?  I've rebuilt a Bridgeport Head, several Atlas lathes, and one SB Heavy Ten.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 2, 2016)

First order of business, open manual, read the set up procedure.  Second, adjust those 4 carriage bearings so they are slightly snug and don't bind anywhere on bed as you traverse it.  That will tell you alot about any bed or saddle wear you have.   Karl is correct the bed is very hard, unfortunately something has to be softer and its the underside of carriage (saddle), so if your oiler don't work or it out of oil usually the back part of saddle wears and voila your are turning a taper up near headstock where all the work is done.  Get those 4 bearings adjusted, loose the 3 jaw and collet chuck for time being and turn between centers.   You can use the 3 jaw to hold a soft center, true it on the lathe and go to town.   Look up Rolies Dads method or the two washer method of setting up a lathe, lots of videos on both on you tube.

michael


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## Karl_T (Oct 2, 2016)

I'd go as far as doubleeboy says before I'd panic.

You'd pay a fortune to have somebody else do it. I had my carriage apart 20 years ago. I did not do any turcite buildup or scraping work but I did clean tons of swarf out, got the oiler working top shelf, replace several broken parts, way wipers, and tighten everything.

Oh, and rollie's dads method did not work on my 10EE either.  Monarch just built these these machines too damn rigid  My tailstock is an RSH low causing a very slight taper. I just live with it. I don't even use the tailstock for much other than drilling.


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## MattM (Oct 2, 2016)

OK here is where it stands:

1   The machine is level, so says the Starrett 12" level

2  I read the manual, nowhere does it mention anything about tweaking the carriage

3  The spindle is running true, so says the Mitutoyo indicator

4  The collet chuck was out a few Thou, so said the Mitutoyo

5   Replaced the collet chuck with my one and only three jaw

6   Turned between centers, some slight improvement, not enough to mention.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 2, 2016)

Unless Monarch changed how the carriage rides between the years 1956 and the year yours was made, there are 4 bearing that help the carriage ride down the ways, they are mounted on an eccentric cam, just like the adjuster on a metal bandsaw guide bearing, if you look under , or feel with your hand you will find em, they are not that difficult to adjust, if you have bed or carriage wear you will not get a consistent feel as you go down the bed.   Check the old posts on PM, I know it is mentioned.  rkepler may have written about it.   These bearings being on the underside, keep the carriage from lifting up if adjusted correctly and minimal bed wear.  Get down on your knees and look up or use a mirror.  I would be dumbfounded if Monarch gave up on them.

michael


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## JimDawson (Oct 2, 2016)

MattM said:


> .............. dead on until about three inches from the headstock then dips 3-4 thousands.



Something is moving, in some direction.  Put a known straight bar in the chuck and check in the horizontal and vertical planes with an indicator.  You should be able to see a variation in the area of interest, then is a matter of figuring out where it's coming from.  Do this by just pushing on things until you find something that moves.  If that doesn't work come up with a new test.

Chasing down these things can be a PITA.  Don't give up too easily, you'll get it whipped.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 2, 2016)

When you turn between centers make sure you are using a soft center that you turned on your lathe , do not remove it from chuck, or you will have to retrue it, not a hard job though.  If after doing all you can to adjust carriage and dialing in tailstock you should be able to hold .001 even on a very worn machine.  I believe there are posts at PM describing how to check for bed wear.  When the tailstocks are new and scraped in for that particular machine, they are a tad high, a few thou and point down slightly, this gives you a margin for wear, as time passes most folks end up shimming between base of tailstock and top piece.   On a 40 year old lathe I suspect your tailstock is going to need some TLC unless this machine was a one owner run by the person who owned it.  I urge you to spend a lot of time at PM monarch board reading.  Lots of folks have been down this road before you, only a very few are on HM, there are guys way smarter and more experienced than I at PM, Donie, rkepler, J Tiers, and many others.

michael


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## MattM (Oct 2, 2016)

Michael--I do believe you nailed it.  Checked out the undercarriage bearings, sure enough the bearing on the headstock side was not touching, and the one on the tailstock side just barely.  I adjusted the headstock bearing as much as I could .  It is just barely touching (maybe I need a new bearing?).  

Bottom line: GREAT improvement.   Down to about a thou over 11" on a now greatly thinned test piece.  I suspect when I put the collet chuck on and turn a 1"x 12" piece it will be  t--- on.  Thank you, Michael.  If you are ever in our territory stop by.   I have some wine  waiting for you.

I'd like to get back in the shop tomorrow but The Wife and I are going away for a few days .---Matt


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 2, 2016)

Glad to hear you are making progress, I cant tell if you adjusted the bearings front and back, but there are two on back side of lathe too.   I don't know how those bearings could ever wear out, they turn very slow.   On a well used lathe its not likely you will get them perfect but you should be able to dial it in to a happy compromise, no binding is the goal, but least amount of slop possible.  I think the spec is a few thou clearance between bearing on lathe.  Now to get down to tenths.   On my very worn machine, I get 3 tenths taper on 3/8" diameter work piece, no measurable taper on 3/4" work.  Factory spec was half a tenth over 6 or 10".   

good work
michael


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## MattM (Oct 3, 2016)

I'll check the backside bearings before we leave today.  Thanks again.


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## MattM (Oct 3, 2016)

Put the collet chuck back on, adjusted the backside bearings, chucked a 3/4 ground and polished rod sticking out 8.5", no tailstock support.

Dead on at tailstock end, dead on at headstock  end (or as close as I can read from the Mitutoyo indicator) , about .002 off in the middle.


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## MattM (Oct 3, 2016)

Took the bar out and placed it in a large vee block on the surface plate.  Ran over it with the .0005 indicator, no runout.


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## MattM (Oct 8, 2016)

Chucked a 14" length of  1.25" axel metal turned it front to back and back to front taking .005  cuts.  Beautiful finish.  That's the good news.  Still off .006 end to end.

Chucked an eight inch (stick out) piece of 1" aluminum and got .006 runout over the eight inches.  The problem seems to be close to the chuck.  About 3-4 inches from the chuck things go  to hell. 

I got thirty collets with the machine.  Most of them have "pecker" marks on the nose.  This indicates to me that most  work was done close to the chuck. 

Comments?


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## JimDawson (Oct 9, 2016)

I assume the axle was supported by the tailstock center which might indicate the tailstock needs adjustment.

As far as the aluminum goes, are you sure the bar is straight to begin with?  I would check it in V-blocks before I ever used it for a test bar.  Not just one V-block, a V-block on each end.


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## MattM (Oct 9, 2016)

Yes, it was supported by a live center.  I did check and the tailstock is lined up.

Did not check the aluminum bar beforehand.  I'll check it on the V- block, I have a large one.

I've been chasing this since I got the machine a few weeks ago.  I'm thinking the ways are off near the headstock because it appears most work was done there.  Guess I'll just have to live with it.  I'm not about to have the ways reground, that would cost more than I paid for the machine.

So, what's the downside?  I'll still be able to thread, cut tapers, face, but what about chambering?  I'll use my Clausing if I have to do any long turning.


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## mksj (Oct 9, 2016)

No expert in this area, but a few things to consider.
1. If you had excessive wear near the headstock on the bed, this would drop the cutter head relative to the center line of the chuck. Assuming the cutter is cutting on center line this would increase the diameter of the work at that end, as oppose to decrease it, but decrease the diameter toward the tailstock end assuming that on the center line (cutter would move up or down relative to the center line). You might double check the cutter height, and take a few passes with slight height adjustments. You should also be able to check tailstock height, if it is just a touch high or low relative to the chuck, the diameter will increase at the tailstock end assuming the cutter is at center at the chuck.

2. Check the TIR of chucked stock at the headstock, if it is out 2-3 thousandth, then that will give you the profile you describe.

3. If you have a 0.0001" dial gauge with a flat tip, mount it to the carriage first run it the horizontal plane, then the vertical plane, use something like a 12-18"  ground precision rod  and run it up and down the X axis slowly turning the chuck by hand wo/w support at the tailstock. Note the +/- TIR swing around 0 along the rod. Wider swing at one end would suggest a centering issues, wider swing in one direction, would suggest an alignment issue. If in the vertical plane the tailstock is high or low, it may need to shimmed or ground.

4. I would try to take a few passes with a very sharp cutter on Al bar stock  with the stock held at different lengths w/wo the tailstock, like 6, 8 and 12".  This will give you some idea of the affect where the problem is occurring and the influence of the tailstock on the cut.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 9, 2016)

I do not suspect this is your problem, but its best to rule out the easy stuff first, have you trammed your tailstock bore to your spindle yet.  You can have tailstock centered front to back just perfect but if your tailstock is high or low by more than a thou or so you can have problems, Usually what happens is people move the tailstock incorrectly.  They loosen tailstock clamp and push it or pull it by top of tailstock at the spindle or handwheel.  This tilts that tailstock and the soft cast iron base starts wearing on the hard ways, so tailstock drops, the factory knows this and most good lathes come 3 thou high but with spindle tilted down, so over time the wear get about 10 thou or so and rube decides to shim tailstock, so he puts a big ass shim in, and gets it kind of good, but now tailstock is tilted up and high.  10ee tailstocks are not the easiest to shim, but its doable, you will likely have to stack small shims in combination to get front and back more or less equal in height.

If its bed / carriage wear it can  show as larger diameter near headstock or smaller, depending on which way wore, or more likely the back side oil line got clogged, so no oil to back way, back side of carriage wears against the hard bed and wears lower tilting whole carriage top, causing bearing adjustment issues on the 4 bearings you adjusted last week.  To check for the important to me last 2 inches up near headstock, I like to chuck a piece of 3/4" brass, nibble east a  quarter inch, down to 3/8"  diameter now do the next quarter inch moving west, repeat till you have taken off a inch and half or two inches and see what your change in diameter is, this method should limit tool push off if you take light cuts with a wicked sharp positive rake tool.  On a machine with as accurate a leadscrew  as you have in cross slide, you should be able to repeat your place with a few tenths, so after taking your several cuts it should be good with in a few tenths of variations due to cuts.   I hope this makes sense.  This is how I was taught to check out a lathe,  it is pretty certain to show if ways or carriage are badly worn up near headstock.   If this test works out, then I leave about an inch or maybe a bit more of 3/8" stock sticking out of chuck and do it again down to a 1/4" diameter, if that is half decent I am good to go.   This test takes about 10 minutes including set up, I did it repeatedly on the road when I checked out machines before purchase.   If you think you have a real bad area farther away from headstock do same type of test using much longer rod and steady rest.  In my experience you want to use as small a diameter rod as possible when chasing bed wear issues.


michael


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## MattM (Oct 9, 2016)

Thank you all.

I may be closing in on it.  I took the collet chuck off and apart and cleaned it in the solvent tank.  While it was off I again checked the spindle runout internally.  No detectable runout with the Intrapid.  Put the collet chuck on and checked it.  Runout of about .002.  Put the ground precision rod it.  Turned by hand.  Same problem 5-6 thou over eight inches.

Off with the collet chuck and on with the 3-jaw.  Put the aluminum bar back in.  Skim cut makes it look good, very little runout over 8".

I've been working on this for two hours and need  a break.  I'll get back later to take another cut.  Right now I'm thinking the collet chuck may be the culprit.  However with the 3-jaw and dog I'm not cutting close to the tailstock as I was with the collet chuck.

To be continued...


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## MattM (Oct 9, 2016)

OK back at it after a short Harley ride to blow the stink off.

Took two more skim cuts.  Dead on over 6".  I'm calling it good.  I do think the accuracy was dialed in because I was not getting close to the headstock where the problem was occurring and was not using my collet chuck.  I'm going to use 3 and 4 jaw chucks for work of any length.  Might just use the collets for very short work and buy a new collet chuck.

Any ideas on a good four jaw?  My three jaw is a Buck.


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 9, 2016)

It came with a 8" Norton or similar 4 jaw chuck.  Personally I like my 6" Bison better, easier to handle and grips smaller stuff better.  I believe Grizzly has or had in recent past good prices on Bison.  To save some bucks you could get a Shars, they stand behind their stuff and its okay.  If you want a nice collet chuck look for a _Hardinge_ Sjogren  5c or 2J.   There is not much that can go wrong with them  The atlas copy now available is way to expensive, I picked up a used Sjogren for $275 recently, hold a thou or less, and its a speed chuck.  Conversely if you don't need a speed chuck you can get a budget CDCO 5 c chuck with plain back, buy their back plate, bore it out 20 thou, and set it up with set screws for a budget set tru collet chuck for around $200 total, or get bold and drop the bucks on a set tru collet chuck from Bison, but hold on to your wallet they have really gone up in recent years.

michael


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## Karl_T (Oct 9, 2016)

Soft Jaws are EXTREMELY useful on the 10EE. Get a chuck with replaceable jaws and learn to do any work that needs to be dead nuts on center with them

BTW, "dead nuts" is an official engineering term. The notation is done by drawing a pair of nuts with an arrow through them


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## mksj (Oct 9, 2016)

So some suggestion below. Two of the chucks I use are the Bison 5C set tru and their 8" combination chuck, both require backing plates. You could also use a direct 5C, would need a plain back  D1-3 backing plate, but at that level the set tru for a few dollars more is probably a better choice. If you only use 5C occasionally, then the Atlas chuck mounted 5C may be worth considering. On the 4J, most have very wide and rough jaws, which I find does not work well in a number of clamping situations. The Bison combination chuck has narrower jaws at the tips (0.2") and clamps very well, then a few seconds to tweak the independent jaws to get the last few thousandth dialed down to zip.  Be aware of the speed limitations of these chucks. I think Ajax and Quality Machine Tools has some of the best pricing on Bison chucks.  I wouldn't go with Gator, I have used some of their chucks, but recent posts have indicated significant defect issues. Buy a cheap chuck when your chasing accuracy, do not expect much.

One thing to note on 5C collets and clamping, the collets can vary a bit more on TIR compared to something like an ER system, and if the stock being held  is a tad under or over the collet size it can clamp quite irregularly and exacerbate the TIR.

Pratt Burnerd Front Hand Wheel Quickie 5C Collet Chucks D1-3 PB23-D3    http://www.prattburnerd.com/detail.php?p=CC&l=CCL&m=QFH
Chuck mounted Quick Change 5C Collet Chuck Atlas Model No. COL5C    http://www.prattburnerd.com/detail.php?p=CC&l=CCL&m=QC5
Bison 5C Set Tru Collet Chuck, will need a D1-3 set tru backing plate    http://www.ajaxtoolsupply.com/bisettrucoch1.html

Bison Independent Lathe Chuck - 8" D1-3 Mount, 4-Jaw 7-853-0833        http://www.ajaxtoolsupply.com/biinlach8d1m1.html
Bison Scroll Chuck - 8" Plain Mount, 4-Jaw 7-848-0800    http://www.ajaxtoolsupply.com/biscch8plmo4.html


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## MattM (Oct 9, 2016)

Again thanks to all.

I chucked the axel back in between centers.  Two skim cuts in and out.  Off maybe half a thou over 11'.  Is that dead nuts or ti-- on?


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## Doubleeboy (Oct 9, 2016)

Matt, those numbers are good enough for most humans and if you mention tenths to most job shops they roll their eyes and say nobody machines to that.  Like I said before and you can confirm for yourself the factory spec is half a tenth over x number of inches, 6, 10, 12 I forget.   IMO better than 3 or 4 tenths is only necessary on small diameter fits, shrink, press or slip and hi precision die work, or pins for nuclear weapons triggers which is what the 10ee did a boatload of in the early 1940s.  If you are happy, what the rest  think is meaningless.  Myself, I constantly kick my self for buying a machine that I knew could only hold 3 tenths on small diameters, <1/2".   If I could have been lucky or looked longer I could have gotten more accuracy.  Why does it matter to me, when I build small engines its tough for me to hold a tenth or two on 1/8" valve stems.  My answer was to buy a second machine from Taiwan, a definite price point machine, it can do the work but its not near as much fun to operate and was not designed like the EE was.  As you likely have read in old literature, their goal was to make a machine for the best machinist in a precision shop to operate all day long and not complain about surface finish, smooth operating controls, controls located in fatigue free locations.  If you get your machine dialed in to a accuracy level that you can understand for repeatable performance, and you can live with be very happy, you are driving a cross between a Ferrari and a Rolls Royce.  Not too dusty for what you paid.

On another note regarding chucks, you could always buy a good 4 jaw and a small quality 3 jaw that you could hold in the 4 jaw, pretty much cover everything a hobbyist would need as long as you don't want to do repetitive work with speed and accuracy.  I have a friend who for years before getting an EE ran a Wade toolroom lathe, a very fine lathe, and he used a 4 jaw with a Sherline 3 jaw that fit in it and did work most people can only dream of.

Congrats on your progress
michael


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## MARVIN GARDENS (Oct 10, 2016)

I am enjoying the progress being reported on the 10EE.  I picked up a 0ld 10EE for basically scrap price last year.  Mine is a 1939 model with a Sundstrand drive.  Between the drive and the end cover being missing, nobody but me was dumb enough to take it on.  I was fortunate enough to locate a similar era cover and taper attachment from a machine that was being scrapped.  The drive had stopped running about ten  years ago and was then rebuilt to full function.  The owner retired shortly after and the lathe has been parked since.  I am just now starting the process of cleaning her up and plan to drain and replace the fluid in the drive.  The ways appear to be pristine still.  It is reported to me that this one was the personal machine of the company owner.

We'll see.  I wanted a 10EE and  don't see how I could have possibly gotten into one any cheaper.  A gentleman reasonably close by has a Sunstrand 10EE that is operational and has offered to let me examine his machine and to offer any help that he can provide.  I am going to try to save the old girl but if that is not possible, I'll locate another down the road when finances allow.  Right now I have two lathes in my shop, a very nice USAF Heavy 10 and the 10EE which is still in the clean up stage.  It is my hope to pick up a Mori or Whacheon gearhead in the near future, this would also satisfy my occasional need to turn metric threads.

Please keep the progress reports coming on your machine.  I learn something from every post and thread that I read on the forum.


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## MattM (Oct 10, 2016)

mksj said:


> So some suggestion below. Two of the chucks I use are the Bison 5C set tru and their 8" combination chuck, both require backing plates. You could also use a direct 5C, would need a plain back  D1-3 backing plate, but at that level the set tru for a few dollars more is probably a better choice. If you only use 5C occasionally, then the Atlas chuck mounted 5C may be worth considering. On the 4J, most have very wide and rough jaws, which I find does not work well in a number of clamping situations. The Bison combination chuck has narrower jaws at the tips (0.2") and clamps very well, then a few seconds to tweak the independent jaws to get the last few thousandth dialed down to zip.  Be aware of the speed limitations of these chucks. I think Ajax and Quality Machine Tools has some of the best pricing on Bison chucks.  I wouldn't go with Gator, I have used some of their chucks, but recent posts have indicated significant defect issues. Buy a cheap chuck when your chasing accuracy, do not expect much.
> 
> One thing to note on 5C collets and clamping, the collets can vary a bit more on TIR compared to something like an ER system, and if the stock being held  is a tad under or over the collet size it can clamp quite irregularly and exacerbate the TIR.
> 
> ...



I can get this same chuck from MSC for $527.25 free shipping.  Ajax wants $745+shipping.  I'd rather have a 6 inch but I think I'll go with the eight at this price.


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