# Upgrading Thrust bearing



## timpet98 (Apr 13, 2020)

Hi, I've got a 1936 Atlas/Craftsman 12". That year was the last before they began to offer the Timken bearings so mine are Babbitt. I have been running into issues with the bearings when I use carbide insert tooling. I do not think that it is a lubrication problem, because I am using the recommended spindle oil, and lubricating at a minimum at the beginning of each day that I use it. When using carbide tooling the axial forces seem to be much higher, and the "thrust bearing" gets all of the oil pushed out and has completely locked up and galled on me once. After that happened I have been careful to constantly add oil to the rear bearing. I'm taking a 20thou on the dial cuts about 12" long on 1144 stressproof which is free machining. I have to add oil every 3-4 passes which seems like quite a lot especially in comparison to when cutting with HSS where I only have re-lubricate maybe once or twice over like 4-5 hours of run time. 

I was thinking about replacing the "thrust bearing" collar with some sort of ball/roller thrust bearing. I keep saying "thrust bearing" because it is just a steel ring that is butted up against the step in the spindle and bears on the edge of the Babbitt bearing. I already have a visible amount of end play in the spindle because when I had it tighter I was having problems constantly. I was wondering if anyone had retro-fitted their Babbitt lathe to have a thrust bearing of some sort like on South Bend lathes. 

The pictures I have attached are in order as follows: my lathe's thrust bearing (its black), the dimensions of the ring, a page from the South Bend Catalog detailing how their bearings worked.

From what I can tell I could use a ball thrust bearing or a roller thrust bearing. I was wondering what the advantages and disadvantages of either are. Let me know what you guys think.


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## wa5cab (Apr 14, 2020)

Welcome aboard.  I think that you have the earliest 12" Craftsman lathe that I have seen.  What is the serial number?  It should be stamped into the front way at the right end of the bed.  Your machine would appear from you photo to be a 101.07360 as it does not have the back gears.  We do not have any parts lists on any of the 101.0736x family.  However, nearly 10 years ago, I downloaded all of the Atlas lathe parts lists that were still available at that time on Sears Parts Direct.  That included all of the 101.0736x. 101.0738x and 101.0740x lists (12 total) and I wrote some dBase code that makes it fairly easy to find things in the lists.  

Forget about South Bend.  Your main problem, at least according to the Sears parts lists,  is that someone has removed the 10D-61 ball thrust bearing and replaced it with a steel sleeve.  There is also or should be a short pin in the spindle that keeps the thrust bearing from spinning on the spindle.  It's part number is 9-116 but it was left off of the parts lists.  I am trying to track down the part number but the smaller diameter sleeve to the right of where the 10D-61 should be is the spacer in lieu of the small spindle back gear that your machine does not have.  There are some other differences between yours and the 101.07380 that I am not yet clear on.  Take another photo of the right end of the headstock.


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## graham-xrf (Apr 14, 2020)

Aw ..he was thinking to put a bearing back in there anyway. Nothing wrong in making the same design decision as the guys at South Bend.


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## wa5cab (Apr 14, 2020)

Why reinvent the wheel?  We know that the 10D-61 worked well.  I am still curious to see what the other end of the 4-step spindle pulley looks like and how it is held in place.


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## timpet98 (Apr 14, 2020)

I'm not sure exactly what the "10D-61 ball thrust bearing" but if I'm understanding this correctly it sounds like the same thing that the south bend had. A ball thrust bearing in front of the rear Babbitt spindle. The stamping reads L5-224. I would like to keep it as original as possible, within reason, it has a few problems that I'm trying to find creative ways around in order to keep as much as l can original. If the original bearing is something that I can easily obtain at a relatively low price I would love to find one. I'm a 22 year old college student so my budget isn't huge, but since I know the history of my lathe all the way back to the original date of purchase I try my best to preserve it. 

My Grandpa purchased it in the 80's from the widow of his long time neighbor who originally purchased it in 1936. My Grandpa never got around to setting it up and running it, so while I'm the third owner, I feel extraordinarily lucky to be the second person to ever operate this piece of history. The previous owner made some modifications. Primarily adding a plunger type feed selector like is seen on the Craftsman lathes sold the very next year. I'm sure that probably drove him nuts at the time to see such a drastic improvement the year after his purchase. 

The other major problem is that the cross slide/swivel for the compound, was made of ZAMAK and is of a completely different design. I am looking to replace that part as well with a modified version of the new cast iron one. I could replace the whole compound assembly and it would be VASTLY easier, but again I want to keep things original. The first picture that I attached is of both cross slides, with the cast iron one coming from my 7"-x-y positioning table that I bought to go on my 1942ish Craftsman (Atlas) drill press. I'm not willing to sacrifice that one, but I'm trying to track one down to modify. The ZAMAK one has a couple of problems, obviously 3 gib adjustment screws and 1" less bearing surface isn't preferable. But the MAJOR problem is that unfortunately I sort of "broke" it. I say that in quotes because I can still use the lathe, but after I took this picture I set the compound to 29 for threading, and then likely over tightened the nuts, pulling the T-nuts up into the soft zinc and raised a burr in the track around the bolts. Now they are stuck and I cannot move my compound off of 29. 

I would like to track down another cross slide, grab it in a 4 jaw and turn down the round dovetail feature, and then trapan out a slot, and subsequently use an extraordinarily odd left and right hand grooving tool to turn a t-slot into the cast iron compound. All of the measurements should work out, I know that the slide does slide on the dove tail, from when I used the table from 7"-x-y thing to horizontal bore holes in some flat plate. 

The cone pulley on the spindle is just held in place with a set screw, and this is sometimes problematic (comes loose from vibration/rarely on heavy cuts). I know that on back gear models that the set  screw SHOULD NOT be tightened, but there is no other way for my lathe to work. I would like to come up with some sort of sleeve with a key-way in the bore and a pair of pins going into the recesses in the cone pulley, similar to when direct drive is engaged on a back gear lathe. The pins would not need to move in and out because it would always be in direct drive. I would need a slug of probably aluminum about 4-3/4" diameter and 1-1/2" long but with the local place I but drops at being closed right now. I'm not going to get to it for a while because shelling out the price of getting it cut off from somewhere like onlinemetals and shipped isn't really an option for me. 

Could you please upload a copy of the parts manual that you have for the Babbitt bearing lathe? I haven't been able to find anything but the Timken version on Vintage Machinery, or even just a screenshot of the page showing the spindle. I'm not quite understanding what the arrangement of bearings/spacers on my spindle should look like. I know this lathe never had back gears, because the cone pulley has the index pin holes and the pin itself is too long to fit with a back gear. Despite this the rear is still milled flat and has the 4 taped and 2 reamed holes to mount the counter shaft.

 Let me know if you want pics of anything else I'd be glad to upload them, here are some more of the headstock.

Sorry for the ramble, just a lot of things going on with my lathe and lots of questions I have been dieing to find answers for. 

.... one last thing just came to mind, what can I do to retrofit some way wipers onto saddle, there aren't any and I have to take the whole thing off constantly because small dust like chips find their way under and I have to take the saddle off completely to clean it out. Feeling the grit under their is like fingers on the chalk board to me.


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## timpet98 (Apr 14, 2020)

I just walked over and stared at my lathe for a minute trying to remember what it looked like when I had the spindle all the way apart after the first time it seized, and I am fairly sure there was a drive pin under that collar. Unless I am remembering when I just helped my friend out by taking his 1942 Timken headstock apart. If that pin is only on the Babbitt versions then it is there.


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## wa5cab (Apr 16, 2020)

This was written several hours ago but I got interrupted.  If any of it has already been answered or is outdated, just disregard. 

OK.  I'll answer your last question first.  The babbit bearing spindle # 10-31 is different from the Timken spindle # 10-31T.  The first obvious difference is that the 10-31 has the hole for the 10-116 pin that makes part of the 10D-61 Thrust Bearing spin with the spindle.  10-31T among other things does not have the hole.

Finding an original 10D-61 may not be easy.  However, the same bearing was used in all of the Atlas babbit bearing 10" and Craftsman 12" lathes up through 1945 when production ceased.  So it shouldn't be impossible to find someone parting out one of the lathes.  The original spec 10D-61 is no longer made and the replacement that Clausing has or had seems to be a little larger or something.  But that shouldn't cause you any problems as as you have said and the photo shows that there is plenty of room to slide the spindle step pulley toward the tailstock in order to assemble everything.  However, like the Timken bearings in Class 3 tolerance, it ain't cheap.

I will check in Downloads for what would be the nearest parts manual to the unavailable one on your machine.  However, as you may have already discovered, access to Downloads requires being a site Donor.  The least expensive dollar amount is $10.00 good for one year.  There are higher levels but as far as Downloads is concerned, all levels have the same Downloads access.  The higher donor levels gain access to other things.  I think that there is a chart showing all of that if you click on the Donations tab in the top main tool bar.  So you need to factor that into your plans.


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## timpet98 (Apr 16, 2020)

The space for the bearing as it is is 3/8 in width and the same ID size that McMaster has is 5/8 width. Is that 5/8 the same size as new bearing offered by Clausing? Either way I anticipate that being a problem, not because if the cone pulley, but because of the amount of space left on the other side of the bearing where the gear for the change gears is, and the spindle preload nut. It might not matter, but I'd have to take a look tomorrow and see how much space is back there. Also not sure of how the bearings would take being shifted along the spindle shaft, because where they are now are much more polished than the rest, again ill have to look at it tomorrow.


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## wa5cab (Apr 16, 2020)

Well, no one else spoke up, which sorta surprises me.  But...

I have confirmed unfortunately that we do not have a parts list on any of the 101.07306x models nor on any of the less easily identifiable 10" ones that do not have back gears.  The closest thing that we do have, besides the Sears Parts Direct lists without any drawings and not available online, is an early flat parts list on the 101.07381


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## wa5cab (Apr 16, 2020)

Oops, I must not have updated the browser screen.

At least two people have said that they had trouble installing the currently available one from Clausing.  However, I didn't have the impression that it was as much as 1/4" wider.

However, there is a solution in your case IFF you have decided not to try to acquire the back gear parts.  And that is to either cut off the sleeve spacer that is between the thrust bearing and the cone pulley or to make a shorter one.

I would imagine that if you call Clausing, and ask for Tech Support instead of sales that they would be willing to go and fetch one of them, measure it, and tell you what the thickness is.  And the price.  What does the one from McMaster cost?


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## timpet98 (Apr 16, 2020)

McMaster has it at about $30, but its honestly probably a different thing. Regardless another forum member send me a PM and actually had a bearing that wasn't in use, as well as a cross slide that had the round dovetail damaged, and offered to ship them to me.... FOR FREE, so I just want to say thank you to them, and I'll post some pictures as I get the parts installed.


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## wa5cab (Apr 17, 2020)

OK on the thrust bearing.  I thought that one would eventually turn up.

Whether or not the cross slide will help depends upon what the damage is.


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## timpet98 (Apr 17, 2020)

Well he said the damage was to the round dovetail thing, I don't know the proper name of it, and as you can see from the picture that I posted of both of mine side by side, that part will be machined off either way. Either way we will see, and I'll let everyone know as my progress continues.


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## wa5cab (Apr 18, 2020)

If the damaged part is the inverted cone on the later cross slide, I have always called it the Pintel or pintel.  I actually don't know what Atlas called it.  I have never seen an Atlas document that referred to it.  The closest they come is in the MOLO where it says to keep the square head set screws tight.  But if you are going to machine it off, what is going to hold the compound swivel to the cross slide?


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## timpet98 (Apr 18, 2020)

Ya, that is the part that I am talking about. The original 1936 compound rest and cross slide is much like many other larger lathes with a circular t-slot and some t-bolts with nuts on top of the compound rest. As the pic bellow shows the damage to the soft zinc track had begun before I finally did it in and got it locked at 29 degrees. The compound rest has a 5/8 locating pin in the bottem that it rotates about. I'm fairly sure that with some time, careful setup and lots of tiny custom ground grooving tools I could make round t track with the cross slide in a 4jaw. Honestly if they had made it out of cast iron I believe it would be a much more ridgid setup. The other slightly more long term/kinda kills me on the inside slowly, problem with the zinc cross slide is that any grit or chips that manage to find there way under the dove trail get embedded and it basically becomes a lap slowly abrading away the top of my saddle with every part I make. It has carved this one odd groove, I'll send a pic of that when I get a chance.


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## wa5cab (Apr 18, 2020)

OK.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned are the spindle bearing shims.  Under both sides of the bearing cap when it left the factory should have been a 0.010" (originally) shim.  Each shim is made of five 0.002" shims glued together.  To evaluate the two bearing/spindle conditions requires a dial indication good for at least +/- 0.001" that can be attached to the bed or headstock and measure/indicate spindle vertical and horizontal movement near the bearing caps.  First confirm that the four bearing cap screws are properly tightened.  Atlas apparently never specified a torque figure but something in the range of 25 to 35 lb-ft seems appropriate.  move the end of the spindle that is being indicted vertically and horizontally.  Presuming that no chuck is on the spindle, insert something like a piece of 3/4" diameter round bar at least a foot long into the spindle bore.  Pull up and push down on the end of the bar to determine  the vertical clearance.  Push and pull in the horizontal plane to determine the horizontal clearance.  Do this at both ends of the spindle.  If the vertical movement is greater than about 0.0015", remove one shim wafer from either whichever shim is the thickest or from the front shim if they are both the same.  Reinstall the shims and bearing cap and repeat.  If still too loose, remove one shim from the thicker shim pack.  Continue until the vertical movement with the cap screws fully tightened is under 0.002 at both ends  and the spindle still spins freely with little resistance.


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## timpet98 (Apr 18, 2020)

Well I can't remember how thick the shims were when I last had the bearing caps off, but I'll mic them when take it all apart as the bearing comes in. I know that right now I do not have the bearing caps tightened down nearly enough, I don't have a torque wrench so I left them relativity loose. I made the bolts finger tight then added about a 1/16th turn with a wrench. The spindle spins free, but  sure it might be too loose. Between the babbitt bearings and the preload of the not really a bearing spacer it got tight real fast with much more tightening. I am fairly sure the chuck more than 2thou but haven't put an indicator on it. On the other hand I just so happened to be working on making a milling machine vise, and just roughed down the screw from 1-1/2 round to .830. I used the opportunity to dial in my tail stock. Without too much trouble it is holding .001 taper over the 11". It might be something that I could have dialed in with the tail stock better, but I wasn't in the mood to mess with it because for the current job that's not a problem. Ill set it up and check it out when I get a test indicator, dial's don't have the sensitivity for a half thou. I've got my eye on a few on ebay.


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## wa5cab (Apr 19, 2020)

0.001" over 11 inches is pretty good.


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## timpet98 (Apr 23, 2020)

I got a package, and it did not disappoint! Here is a quick update, and some photos, I've got a ton more photos and a detailed update coming this weekend, but for now here's the short version. 

The cross slide looks like it will work out great, but I can't work on it right now because I have an awkward non-round part currently dialed in on the 4jaw. 

My spindle does have the the pin in the location of the spacer and the bearing I got does not have a slot/keyway for it. I did a bit of looking around the internet for more info about the bearing (while THM was down). Some people say that Atlas sold them with either a spacer/plain-bearing or the ball thrust bearing. Most convincing part is the pic of their spacer that is identical to mine. 

https://groups.io/g/atlas-craftsman/topic/how_do_you_oil_the_thrust/11253514?p=Created,,,20,1,0,0

The bearing is 1/8" thicker than my original spacer, but I don't feel like shoving the spindle up 1/8" will be a problem, aside from the fact that the detent in spindle is where it is, so the cone pulley will also be pushed forward. I think it is going to cause a interference with index pin that goes into the face of the pulley, so I'll probably have to remove it. Other than that I just drilled a detent into the counter shaft for the cone pulley there, because the flat was all marred up and the set screw wasn't holding well. So the pulleys will be 1/8" out of alignment. I'll see how bad it looks when I get it together, and I might have to dill another detent further down rotated either 90 or 180 degrees from the current flat/detent. 

Either way let me know what you guys think the best way to get the ball bearing onto my spindle is. I'm determined to make it work, and I would really like to not have to saw/grind off the pin. A method for pulling it out would be great, I tried grabbing it with pliers and it is pretty soft. Other than that maybe grinding a slot in the bearing, but that just feels wrong although without some better options that's where I'm leaning. Open to ideas, let me know!


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## wa5cab (Apr 23, 2020)

None of the parts lists over the years ever showed a spacer instead of the ball thrust bearing.  So I think it is like the mistaken rumor floating around the Internet that early model 618's had 1"-8 instead of 1"-10 spindle nose threads.  Easily disproved by looking at the first Atlas catalog that included the 6".  But some people just can't tell the difference between a 618 and a 101,07301.

Back to the thrust bearing, we have been hearing reports that the ball thrust bearing currently being sold by Clausing is thicker than the original.  If you have no plan to purchase and install the back gears, the solution to what to do about the index pin is to remove the roll pin that retains it and remove the index pin from the headstock.  Rotate the index pin in your drill press vise so the the old roll pin hole is horizontal.  Drill a new roll pin hole 1/8" closer to the left end of the index pin and 90 degrees  from the existing one so that you can pull the index pin out farther.

To remove the locator pin from the spindle you need a slide hammer equipped with a dowel pin collet type clamp.  You should be able to rent one from an equipment rental place.  Alternatively, you can try drilling and tapping a puller hole in the pin.  That will destroy the pin.  However, if the thrust bearing that someone sold you doesn't have the slot, you can't use the pin anyway.  My feeling is that a ball thrust bearing without the ID locator slot is still a big improvement over the solid spacer with one so long as you don't have back gears.

Alternative.y, you could take the ball thrust bearing to a machine shop that can do EDM machining and have them cut the slot.  Assuming that they won't be cutting into the balls of course.


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## timpet98 (Apr 23, 2020)

I can't take a picture because the bearing and some roller bearings from an Atlas counter shaft are currently taking a bath in some lacquer thinner. But here is a sketch of about how it looks there is plenty of room for a "keyway" with just the problem of getting it machined in there. Can you single point broach with a carbide grooving tool in the quill of a mill similar to the hobo way to broach keyways into pulleys with HSS??? or grinding, but then that leaves abrasive. Maybe a small carbide end mill, doesn't have to be a square, just needs to be clearance, or by hand with a carbide burr. Not sure if that would be any better than the abrasive. Don't have any experience with carbide burrs so I'm not really sure.


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## timpet98 (Apr 23, 2020)

also the pin is right up against the shoulder, and does not extend past the shoulder, so there would be no way to get a collet around it.


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## wa5cab (Apr 24, 2020)

OK, then pulling it out with a pair of pliers or drilling and tapping it for a puller screw may be the only way.  You might try heating the opposite side of the spindle with a heat gun and after you have the spindle hot, applying an ice cube to the pin.  Or spraying it with freeze spray.  And then pulling on it.  You would need a stand for the spindle for that as otherwise you don't have enough hands.

I would almost bet that the bore is too hard to cut with a broach.  Or for that matter with a carbide cutter.   Grinding would work except that the best that you could do is to end up with a semi-circular groove when you need a square one.  The only right-angle head and cutters that I know of that might be small enough would be dental equipment.  Too expensive.  The only practical way that I can think of would be EDM (Electric Discharge Machining) equipment.


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## timpet98 (Apr 24, 2020)

I don't think that having it squared up would be that important. If it was round it just wouldn't have great engagement, but it doesn't really have to, the alternative is no pin so thats no engagement all it needs to do is clear the pin no matter what shape it is. Ill as the guys at the mill department at work tomorrow, about machining bearing races. I'm aware of EDM, but also aware of how much it might cost to have it send it out, EDMed and shipped back.


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## wa5cab (Apr 24, 2020)

Assuming that you or whomever does the grinding has a way to hold both the bearing and the grinding wheel and that the grinding wheel is the same diameter as the pin, then you could set up and grind a slot whose center was flat out at the height of the pin and whose left and right sides were radius'ed from there back to the ID of the bearing.  You would of course have to hold the bearing such that the inner race couldn't move.  I would expect it to require several of the grinding wheels to finish.


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## timpet98 (Apr 27, 2020)

Well I just caved and decided to file down the pin with a file with safe edges. I attempted to remove it, and it ended up pretty mangled. The bearing is in and everything is back together. I tightened the pre-load nut as good as much as I thought was possible without it locking up. I just had some 20wt oil in the bearing, and it was a bit loud I only ran it for the short time in the videos. The top portion of the babbitt bearing cap is slightly smaller in width than the babbitt in the main spindle casting, I am not sure if this is how it was from the factory, or if it was due to wear. When I had it pushed slightly forward and had a gap on the side of the spacer/gear/pre-load nut there seemed to be more friction due to the spacer only bearing on half of its diameter. So I decided to push it back and I was able to tighten the pre-load nut slightly more and now have a very low amount of end play. The only problem is that now the thrust bearing is only bearing on the babbitt over half of its diameter and now it slips some times. I think If I measure the gap with feelers and place a brass shim I could increase the friction on the bearing side and keep it from spinning. I wasn't sure what the appropriate lubrication was, and I didn't want to pack it full of grease and then have to soak it in a solvent again to remove it from the balls. 

How can I post videos? It says that the files are too large, so I tried to put them in a zip folder and it says that it is too big to post. Let me know how to upload videos so you can hear the sound of the bearing 

Also I found someone on a facebook group that had just gone through the babbitt headstock of their Atlas 10" to get the play out of it. I noticed that he also had the stamped steel change gear cover that was only on the 1935-1936 models. I asked them if they had had a ball thrust bearing or just a steel spacer and surprisingly he just had a steel spacer similar to my lathe. I remembered how you didn't have parts lists/diagrams for the 101.07306x models without back gears. While his did have back gears, it was of the same generation as mine, so I wonder if the ball thrust bearing might have been something that was added with the update in 1937 when they cast change gear cover, and reinforced tailstock were added. Here is the pic from his facebook post.


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## wa5cab (Apr 29, 2020)

Well, all that I can tell you is that I do have the Sears Parts Direct parts list for the 101.07360 and it shows the thrust bearing as being 10D-61.  However, although I don't recall the details of which part or parts it was, I vaguely recall a few cases where in a later model a revised part was used and the Parts Direct parts list shows the later part as being the available replacement in the earlier machine.

I/we have the parts list for the Metalcraft (Sears version) of the 9".  And it calls for a 9-89 Spindle Thrust Washer.  So it is possible that the 10" prior to the 10D had a thrust washer either 10-89 or 10-61.  And after it was replaced in the 10D by the 10D-61 Thrust Bearing, the thrust bearing became the replacement part for the earlier thrust washer.

To answer your other question, the lubricant to be applied to the thrust bearing would be SAE 20 ND.  And the end float that is adjusted by turning the threaded collar on the left end of the spindle should be zero+.  Or in other words, no preload.

I don't know why there are no early parts lists for the 10" or 12".  We are I guess lucky to have the ones from Parts Direct, even if they do leave some questions unanswered.


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