# HSS inserts?



## chuckorlando (Apr 3, 2014)

I have read others say they are using hss indexable inserts. I cant find them, or when I do i dont know what they would work in.

I want to order some tool holders for my 9x20 but I dont want to order tools only to find I got the wrong one. 

Thanks
Chuck


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## drs23 (Apr 3, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> I have read others say they are using hss indexable inserts. I cant find them, or when I do i dont know what they would work in.
> 
> I want to order some tool holders for my 9x20 *but I dont want to order tools only to find I got the wrong one. *
> 
> ...



Same here with my G4003G w/BXA tool holders.


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## Rbeckett (Apr 3, 2014)

1/2 in tooling is about the max you want to run the majority of the time.  There is a thread about decoding the numbers here on the site that will help make sense of what fits what. I generally stay with the triangle shaped inserts like TCMT and TMMT and change the rake and radius of the tip based on hardness of the material.  I would assume that the HSS inserts follow the same number system and would be a direct drop in replacement.  I bought the 1/4. 5/16 and 1/2 Indexable tooling kits with 5 different holders and use the triangle design insert.  The long diamond and other bits really only have two usable tips when the triangles use three and even sometimes 6 different edges.  Hope this helps, If you cannot find that thread LMK and I will try to find a direct link for you.

Bob


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## bkcorwin (Apr 3, 2014)

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm

chart decoding carbide inserts in the event its the same as the hss ones you are talking about.


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## cjtoombs (Apr 3, 2014)

Perhaps I am missing something, but why not just use HSS lathe tool blanks and grind yourself up some?  You can get them dirt cheap on ebay for used and NOS ones, you can grind a different profile in each end of them and you can grind your own form tools for doing things like o ring groves with them.  When they get dull you can easily resharpen them, and they will last a very long time unless you crash hard enough to break them.  So what's making you want to use inserted HSS?


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## chuckorlando (Apr 3, 2014)

Thanks guys. I went in the house and got my machinist hand book and found all the code. The only thing that i did not see was a designation for hss or carbide or the like. And so far searching the code brings nothing but carbide. Searching hss dont bring nothing. We'll figure it out.

I have a bunch of hss tools that came with the machine. Thats what I have been using. I have no idea what half of it's for. If I want a small groove I find one with a small round grind on the tip. ahahaha. If it dont work out, i try another one. Sadly I have been fabricating for a very long time and seem to work around the need for a bench grinder. But that will change soon enough. Then I need to learn how to grind a tool. Thats not a problem, and I look forward to that.

But when I have a school project to do and one piece of material, and often limited time to do it if I dont want to remove it and re install it the next day, inserts are just easier being I use them at school, faster to fix if i screw it up(3 shots in seconds), and i know it's got the right angles for the right finish so any ugly is all my fault and not the tool grind. 

It seems to me it just takes the guess out of it untill I have some clue what I am doing.


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## David Kirtley (Apr 3, 2014)

A. R. Warner that sells the HSS inserts has info on their website for which fit the different holders.


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## cjtoombs (Apr 3, 2014)

There's a reason you are only finding carbide, it's becasue that's all thats used industrialy.  They can use an edge then rotate, and once the insert is used up, it is scraped, there is no need for someone sharpening tools full time.  If I remember corectly, there was an advertisement in either Home Shop Machinist or Hobby Machinist that was for a toolholder with HSS inserts.  The same guy that was making the toolholder was also making and selling the inserts for it.  I don't remember exactly what they looked like, but I don't think they would fit the standard triangle holders that you can get cheap for lathes.  I encourage you to get a grinder and grind up some tools yourself, it's a very useful skill and will come in handy when you need some sort of funky shaped tool to do a specific job.


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## David Kirtley (Apr 3, 2014)

cjtoombs said:


> Perhaps I am missing something, but why not just use HSS lathe tool blanks and grind yourself up some?  You can get them dirt cheap on ebay for used and NOS ones, you can grind a different profile in each end of them and you can grind your own form tools for doing things like o ring groves with them.  When they get dull you can easily resharpen them, and they will last a very long time unless you crash hard enough to break them.  So what's making you want to use inserted HSS?



Actually, it is really the best of both worlds. The sharpness of HSS and the ability to quickly rotate to a new edge. The HSS inserts are very easily resharpened consistently. Just put them face down on a stone and rub. It makes it where you feel free to give it a quick honing more often and keep it sharp.

I can and do grind my own cutters for special cases but I also really appreciate the indexables. My shop time is limited and I prefer to spend it making things rather than sharpening.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 3, 2014)

Oh i intend to learn how to do it. I just recall some guys on her mentioning they were using hss inserts so I figured they must be around. So far I only found threading ones. Thats a grind I could do myself and have plenty done. Plus, i would think you could file the insert back sharp so long as you aint beating on it?


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## David Kirtley (Apr 3, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> Plus, i would think you could file the insert back sharp so long as you aint beating on it?




As long as you only put the top down on the stone, it doesn't mess up the tip radius or anything.

<EDIT>

The only negative thing I can say about them is the lack of a chip breaker.

Also, I still am using up the carbide inserts I had already. They still do a pretty good job in some materials. It is nice to have a choice.


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## kd4gij (Apr 3, 2014)

Here is a link to one option.http://www.arwarnerco.com/c-12-turning.aspx


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## stevecmo (Apr 3, 2014)

They are also available at Little Machine Shop:  https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_search.php?critFast=hss+inserts&B1=Product+Search


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## dave2176 (Apr 3, 2014)

Chuck, 
From this side of the rockies you seem to be a very ambitious and talented machinist.  Why not pick a common carbide insert like CCMT or DCMT and make some of those really cool integrated tool holders like I think it was jumps4 made for his lathe. Or was it darkzero? Anyway they are really cool. There are several good varieties of inserts that don't cost much and cut well.
Just a thought, 

Dave


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## itsme_Bernie (Apr 3, 2014)

W R Warner makes nice ones.  I met them at Cabin Fever once, nice guys.  I love to grind my own bits, but the indexable HSS is helpful sometimes.. 


Bernie


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## chuckorlando (Apr 4, 2014)

I apreciate the kind words. But 'm just a hack that loves metal. ahahah.

The only reason i was thinking hss is the size of my lathe. I have read some guys use it with no problem. But it seems the majority warn away from carbide. In school we use carbide all day every day. 

Do you have a link for these holders? Maybe some plans. I am not opposed to making my own tools. 

Anyone have any good links for tool grinding?

Thanks for the help guys





dave2176 said:


> Chuck,
> From this side of the rockies you seem to be a very ambitious and talented machinist.  Why not pick a common carbide insert like CCMT or DCMT and make some of those really cool integrated tool holders like I think it was jumps4 made for his lathe. Or was it darkzero? Anyway they are really cool. There are several good varieties of inserts that don't cost much and cut well.
> Just a thought,
> 
> Dave



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Yea they seem to be the most popular so far. I got them saved for future use.

Thanks





itsme_Bernie said:


> W R Warner makes nice ones.  I met them at Cabin Fever once, nice guys.  I love to grind my own bits, but the indexable HSS is helpful sometimes..
> 
> 
> Bernie


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## kevin (Apr 4, 2014)

You can find some good links to info about indexable inserts here (click on the link and scroll down to "Indexable inserts"):

https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/useful-links#info-other


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## bkcorwin (Apr 4, 2014)

I have had amazing luck with carbide on my atlas 12x36 lathe.  I found acquiring the proper inserts for the right material made a massive difference.  IE when working aluminum I run some high positive aluminum specific inserts.  Results are really good.

I can grind bits, but i don't like to unless i need a specific form.  My time in the shop is precious and rare these days.  I'd rather just rotate my insert and continue.

I'd think carbide would be worth a try as long as you don't try using some big negative rake insert.


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## dave2176 (Apr 4, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> Do you have a link for these holders? Maybe some plans. I am not opposed to making my own tools.



Check this thread from jumps4.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=9424&highlight=tool+holder


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## 416Taylor (Apr 5, 2014)

I use the Warner HHS tooling. I build custom rifles and do accuracy work and really appreciate the HHS qualities. I can take small cuts ( carbide like a good chip load) and they work very well threading stainless steel. They do sharpen easily as well. Just my two cents from the great white north!!!!

scott


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## chuckorlando (Apr 5, 2014)

Man that link has all kinda things to read. Thanks. I saved it.

I love carbide as thats all we use at school except the threading insert so far. I just hear so many folks say you  cant or should not use it. I am sure I will have some before to long as I like tools and like trying things. Just seems hss is the safe bet for a first insert tool. If I can find a 1/2in one at school I might ask the instructor to let me try some carbide before I do anything. I just dont know if we have a holder that small.





kevin said:


> You can find some good links to info about indexable inserts here (click on the link and scroll down to "Indexable inserts"):
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/useful-links#info-other


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## hvontres (Apr 5, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> Man that link has all kinda things to read. Thanks. I saved it.
> 
> I love carbide as thats all we use at school except the threading insert so far. I just hear so many folks say you  cant or should not use it. I am sure I will have some before to long as I like tools and like trying things. Just seems hss is the safe bet for a first insert tool. If I can find a 1/2in one at school I might ask the instructor to let me try some carbide before I do anything. I just dont know if we have a holder that small.



I think most of the advice against carbide in a HOBBY shop is that most of us just don't have the big,heavy machines needed to fully take advantage of the full potential of a carbide insert. Also, carbide tooling does have some limitations:

1) Most inserts are designed for steel or stainless. That means they will cut steel or stainless realy well, and might even take a chip off of aluminum or other soft materials, but not as well and probaly with a worse surface finish

2) As mentioned earlier, Carbide likes a deeper cut. I have experienced this myself while turning some 4140HT. I took a ~0.04" pass and got a beautifull, smooth surface finish. But then I needed to take off another .004" and the finish got dull and looked almost torn. I noticed the same thing on one of Abom79's videos the other night.

3) for a beginner, the carbide insert Alphabet soup is going to be very confusing. I have managed to figure out the basic geometry, but when shopping for surplus inserts on e-bay, I sometims still have problems trying to figure out what an older, now obsolete grade of carbide was intended for orginally.

I think if you want to see if carbide works for you at home, you might want to make a part at school using the same feeds, speeds and Depth of cut that you think your lathe can handle. If the part comes out looking good, then I'd say go for it.

Hope this helps.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Apr 5, 2014)

ditto Henry's comments ^. I've had relatively little experience with either compared to many on here, but I can shave off the last thou much easier using HSS than Carbide, whatever the size of machine. For most people it probably isn't important, but if you're aiming for a tight slip fit and don't have a tool post grinder, it does make a difference!

Those AR Warner set ups do look very nice. Then again, a nice stone or hone has any of my bits back up to shaving off metal, even with them still on the machine


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## gi_984 (Apr 5, 2014)

Another very satisfied user here of the A R Warner tools.  Got one of their 5 piece turning sets.  And a couple of their excellent cut off blades.  Running it on a 12X36 Atlas and a 11.25 inch Sheldon.  Been using them for several years.  Takes about 30 seconds to sharpen on a flat diamond hone.  Bought additional inserts for spares but am still using my original!
     They also sell CARBIDE inserts! I've got several that I've used on some cast iron.  Worked very well.  Coupled with a AXA quick change tool post and you get great cutting and convenience.


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## LEEQ (Apr 6, 2014)

The fact that you can stone them sharp again has escaped me up to now. I looked at them and they were abt the same money as carbide. (without serious education and bargain hunting) The fact that you can sharpen three points at once and re use them changes everything! Might try those out some day. Great tip)


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## george wilson (Apr 6, 2014)

Personally,I have never used HSS inserts. Nor were they available when I started. We had to chip flint cutting tools when I began,and they were murder on interrupted cuts!!

Really,I would not waste my money on HSS inserts. Just learn to grind your tools. You need to learn to do that,especially of you get into doing any special kind of work where you need custom cutter shapes.

I made several shaped form tools for the 8" model cannon below. Ogees,shapes to turn the decorative bands on the barrel,quarter round cutters,etc.

If you can't make your own cutting tools,you will be forever limited to what is available off the shelf. That is just too limiting to me.

The wax seals are another example of custom ground cutters,though some of the contouring was done with freehand turning tools,like used on wood lathes,only smaller. The handles are water buffalo horns.

The cannon has not been polished yet,just seen as turned on the lathe.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 6, 2014)

You would not happen to have any pics of some of these cutters? I used some form tools to make the handle for our last school project. One to round the noses and another to cut two rounded grooves. No one else in class can do this because we only have inserts. Unless they borrow mine. ahaha.

I'm not discounting the value or need for grinding. I have a new and ground hss tools and blanks and plan to buy a grinder today.

But for facing, turning and threading, inserts just seem so much easier. I have been watching vids for a couple days on grinding tools. Nothing involved seems difficult. Just a PITA when you can have 3 edges to use, rotate, or sharpen in very little time.

I'll sharpen some and see whats what today.

- - - Updated - - -

Awesome work man.


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## LEEQ (Apr 6, 2014)

Those are beautiful seals! Will you mail me something official?  I had one more thought on these insert holding tools. They appear to have been priced by crack heads. Seriously, if I ever go through all of my bits of hss stock and try these out, the only thing I will be purchasing is the inserts. How they feel justified charging so much for such a simple tool is beyond me. I would not give more than $20 apiece, $10 would be more in line. A break on a set would be in line also. I mean really, one angle cut and a tapped hole do not make these things gold.


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## george wilson (Apr 6, 2014)

Mail you something official? You mean sealed with the seals?

I made them for a customer and do not have them myself. I'm not sure what you are requesting,so let me know.

You mean the HSS inserts are more than $20.00 each?????? I had no idea. There MUST be gold in that business.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 6, 2014)

You can buy a cheap 30 dollar set with 5 holders and then use the hss inserts. At least that would be my route or make some myself.

The inserts them self are 5-6 bucks each. Which still seems pricey being the carbides cost the same. You would think steel would be cheaper. But you charge what the market will bear I figure





LEEQ said:


> Those are beautiful seals! Will you mail me something official?  I had one more thought on these insert holding tools. They appear to have been priced by crack heads. Seriously, if I ever go through all of my bits of hss stock and try these out, the only thing I will be purchasing is the inserts. How they feel justified charging so much for such a simple tool is beyond me. I would not give more than $20 apiece, $10 would be more in line. A break on a set would be in line also. I mean really, one angle cut and a tapped hole do not make these things gold.


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## LEEQ (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes, I was kidding about the mail with seals stamped on it. Out of curiosity did you take any pics of a finished wax seal? The tools I was referring to are the simple holders that you screw the insert onto. Looks to be a piece of square bar stock with a recess milled into it to keep the insert from spinning and set the angle. A tapped hole allows a screw to go through the bit thereby securing it. The cheapest single holder I have found yet was at ar warner and went for $45. Most appear to go for $80 and up.The hss inserts I looked at were warners at LMS. They were $6-7. Not bad for the bits you can re use. For the simple holder though, just crazy money. I could have bought about three boring bars that hold inserts for what I paid for a 6" rotary table, tailstock, dividing set, and some clamps. Something wrong with that picture.


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## kd4gij (Apr 6, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> You can buy a cheap 30 dollar set with 5 holders and then use the hss inserts. At least that would be my route or make some myself.
> 
> The inserts them self are 5-6 bucks each. Which still seems pricey being the carbides cost the same. You would think steel would be cheaper. But you charge what the market will bear I figure





Do you have a link to witch cheap 1/2" holders will take the warner HHS triangle inserts.


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## LEEQ (Apr 6, 2014)

I should add that I checked Grizzly and they are more reasonable on the holders than I remember. They have smaller ones around $20 and up. They have a five piece set with 10 inserts for $65. Inserts there though looked to be pricey.  Cheapest I saw without digging too deep was $16 apiece for carbide. I got c2 and c6 inserts for a face mill for less than $5 each, so not great. The price of the holders goes up quickly with size also. I have heard good things about a Mesa threading tool holder also, but know nothing first hand.

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kd4gij said:


> Do you have a link to witch cheap 1/2" holders will take the warner HHS triangle inserts.



Try AR Warner. They should tell you what carbide their hss are direct replacements for. Then you can seek out holders that hold what you want to hold. If memory serves, LMS cross references their inserts like that, carries both carbide and hss, as well as holders. Couple of ideas anyway. I'm trying to avoid learning all the coding until and if I decide I must have lots of style and types. Finding the right type for my $20 Kennametal face mill took me hours. I could do a lot of work and sharpen some bits in that time. Edit OOPS. Check out post 7, page 1.


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## gi_984 (Apr 6, 2014)

You get what you pay for.  US made out of a very high grade of HSS.  Hardened tool holders with quality torx head screws.  Multiple sizes for different sizes of machines.  Over the course of several years the cost is insignificant.  The beauty of the HSS inserts from Warner are (besides the quality) is the insert is sharpened perfectly flat on the diamond hone.  No screwing around trying to maintain an angle on the side rake etc.  For general turning you can't beat them.  Their carbide is US made also, no cheap import junk.  Will handle the majority of your turning needs with a minimum of fuss.  Give them a call and they'll be glad to give you a suggestion on what will work best for you.  I did and the machinist (not just a sale rep) I talked to actually made some very good points that made me select something different than what I was originally considering.  

     George Wilson:  I absolutely agree you still need to be able to grind your own HSS tools.  It was the first thing we learned to do in the machining program I do in the evenings at the local tech school.  I still grind  for specific jobs/profiles.  I generally suck at it.  Takes me a while but I get the profile I need.  Still use my lantern style tool post at times also.  Hand grinding HSS bits seems to be a dying skill.  I'm going to be making some curved profile tools next.  Similar to what Mrpete222 does on his you tube site.

Happy machining,
Chris


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## mikey (Apr 6, 2014)

I have the 3/8" AR Warner turning tool set and they're okay. The inserts are T-15 HSS, flat-topped, have about a 1/32" nose radius and are shaped just like a carbide insert. There is no chip breaker. The holders are well made and accept carbide inserts; I can't recall which ones fit but AR Warner will tell you if you call. 

These HSS inserts work just like a carbide insert but give a better finish at lower speeds. Yes, they can be resharpened but they will still be inserts. 

I actually no longer use these tools. They work okay but are vastly inferior to a well-ground HSS tool, at least on my little Sherline lathe. You might think that a Sherline lathe is a toy but I can take a cut on it with a HSS tool that would make an AR Warner tool chatter the lathe off the bench. Tool geometry matters, regardless of the size of the lathe. It takes me all of 4 minutes to grind a good tool from a blank that will easily outperform an inserted HSS tool, and I can hone it between cuts in 15-20 seconds. Whatever advantage I thought those inserted tools would give me never materialized.

I don't regret the purchase, though; at least now I know what I know and it is not just an opinion I read somewhere. My best advice: save the money and grind your own tools.


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## george wilson (Apr 6, 2014)

As far as I know,these HSS inserts are flat and therefore have no chip breaker groove on them,nor do they have any angle on top to make their cutting angles more acute. I will stay with grinding my own HSS tools for these reasons also. 

If you do have a light,low powered lathe, a proper hand ground HSS tool will make cutting a greater depth of metal much easier on your lathe.

Sorry,I took no pictures of seals made with the wax seal tools. They just have a logo with the initials of the customer on them. The zig zag edges were filed on with gunsmith's checkering files,and were made a bit tapered to come out of the wax easily without breaking it. You can click twice on the wax seal pictures to see the tiny convex knurling on one of them,and to see the initials better. JLA.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 6, 2014)

If I am not mistaken this holders http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-2-TCMT-Carbide-Insert-Turning-Set-5-pc-/T10437

will work with these inserts https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1724

at least matching the carbide tcmt 21.5 insert from one to the hss number


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## rdhem2 (Apr 9, 2014)

Been enjoying this discussion.  There is one overlooked fact here though.  When we hobby guys look at tooling catalogs, these are the catalogs intended for professional manufacturing use.  

I personally enjoy grinding tools and have a whole drawer full of specials.  I like the finish from HSS. I enjoy the ease of use of HSS, finish cuts are easier to control with HSS.

Everything about carbide is speed of feed and depth of cut.  Lots of speed and pressure.  We are talking manufacturing when we are trying to make money.  I machine to relax.  Yes I do use carbide, but let the job dictate the type cutter used.  Mainly do to hard, tough material or stainless.

Cost, nothing cheaper then HSS and I have friend who runs a machine shop and frequents auctions and sales of other shops.  He always has boxes of loose inserts sitting around and lets me plow through them and help myself for free.  He scraps most of the loose stuff.

Something to consider.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 9, 2014)

I picked up a 8in bench grinder yesterday. I have a bunch of tools and new blanks, I intend to pick up some fly cutters verse a face mill for now(alot cheaper) so it just reasons I should grind my own for now. I want a roto table and/or a dividing head, and a ton of other crap. Just got my dro's (have to install the knee yet), I want some boring bars or head........... My money is better spent else where for now

That being said, I still love the idea of inserts and more so hss ones for everyday use. At least for turning and facing


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## mattthemuppet2 (Apr 10, 2014)

chuck - if you're going to start grinding your own bits, I'd really recommend getting a fine grit diamond hone or a couple of grades (soft+hard) of Arkansas stone to finish off the bits. Made a world of difference in finish and ease of cutting in my hands.


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## george wilson (Apr 10, 2014)

A small fine India slip stone also is a good stone for honing grinding marks off of HSS tools. You can go to Arkansas,but to tell the truth,most machinists used India as the final hone. There is nothing wrong with going finer,though,especially if you have a very light lathe like Matt has.

Diamond hones are useful,but they leave scratches depending on their grit size. You could use one first,then go finer. I start sharpening my knives and chisels with diamond. But then,I use a black,then a white Spyderco ceramic stone. These ceramic stones are hard enough to sharpen any steel. But,they often need to be surfaced with a diamond stone before use. They may have circular cut marks on them from being manufactured. Once you get them smoothed up,they will NEVER wear noticeably.


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## chuckorlando (Apr 10, 2014)

My instructor recomended some wheels and india stones last night. I figure if I have no choice I will learn to grind. Verse waiting till I need a form tool and scrap 3 days and 5 parts. ahaha.

When you say diamond wheel your talking the flat metal wheel with diamond bonded to one side? Could you touch up carbide on a diamond stone? Or are they just trash once used up? I have some hss with carbide on the tip. So far I aint much good with them


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