# Rose Index



## aliva (Jan 21, 2021)

I'm considering making a Rose Index.
Has anyone made one? If so any pointers?


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## Winegrower (Jan 21, 2021)

I was thinking about this too.    I think I will put in three clamping screws, in the hex contour,  so that the workpiece can be mounted at the center of rotation, thus the height of the work relative to vise mounting does not change.


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## Chewy (Jan 21, 2021)

Let me guess, you saw this in a Mr. Pete video.  I just drew the 2" up the other day.  It is 90 percent done.  It is a 4 step item. Starts as 3" Square X 1-1/2 thick. Step 1 is 8 sides at 90 degrees.  Step 2 is 8 sides at 45 degrees. Step 3 is 8 sides at 22.5 degrees.  Step 4 is 6 sides at 60 degrees. 
                                                     I am not building this!!!  See below.

 I decided to go with 4 set screws. That way I can center the round in the index.   I also drew up the Joe Pi gauge that glues to the front of a round object.  He makes a point that the gauge doesn't have to be perfectly centered and playing with the drawings he is right.  The reason for  4 pins is so that once the round is in the gauge, whatever you use to locate it with will be very close as you spin it around. The original works like a lathe dog. Put a one inch in a two inch hole and you have to alter the blocks or parallels between 1 and 2 inches in steps. With 4 screws and good eyes, you can easily get .030 or less which makes the setup quicker.  

This is a work in progress, so it has been changed as follows:  Step 1 combines the first two steps above.  8 sides at 45 degrees.  Just doesn't make sense to duplicate the angles. Step 2 will be 8 sides at 22.5 degrees.  Step 3 will be 6 sides at 60 degrees and step 4 will 5 sides at 72 degrees. The first step will be 1/2" instead of 3/8" so that makes the starting piece 1-1/8" thick. 

Just my 2 cents.  This is next months project.


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## tjb (Jan 21, 2021)

Chewy said:


> The first step will be 1/2" instead of 3/8" so that makes the starting piece 1-1/8" thick.


1-1/8" or 1-1/4"?


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## Chewy (Jan 21, 2021)

Both wrong.  It will be 1-5/8" thick.  Just went back to the CAD and looked at the new plans.  Glad you caught that.

I will make a 1 inch version sometime.  Under an inch I use a 5C spin indexer. PIA to set up.  This will be faster for one-offs.

The 4 set screws move to the center of the first step.  That is why I made it 1/2" thick


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## rwm (Jan 21, 2021)

I am not sure I understand the utility of this device? How do you index the tool to the table? Or do you clamp it in the vise? I cannot seem to find the Tubalcain video.
Robert


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## Chewy (Jan 21, 2021)

Here you go. 



.  I make a lot of stuff that doesn't require precision accuracy and this would be a fast no set-up way to get flats and such.  Much faster then collets in a block or spin indexer.  Be great for some wood working too.  

Watch the Rose index.  https://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/rose-index.aspx


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## rwm (Jan 21, 2021)

Got it! I did not think to use a square to index the side. This looks like a great technique for stock larger than my 5C collet blocks can hold.
Robert


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## Chewy (Jan 21, 2021)

Using an adjustable parallel on the bottom is even better than a square on the side, even though I have used both. Joe pi showed how to make hexagon adapters for a 5C collet.  Mr Pete just showed a way to make square adapters even faster. I am making the Harold Hall Tool Grinder and will use both methods for holding tool bits.


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## C-Bag (Jan 22, 2021)

I got total TAS (tool acquisition syndrome) from that vid. I have some plates on the way to make one too. I’ve come to the same conclusion about the grub screws and am going with 3. I’m not sure I even want to do the hex etc because I could just use my digital angle gauge on the square outside to get the desired angle without doing any fancy machining. Lazy I guess.


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## Larry$ (Jan 22, 2021)

I don't understand why you would use more than screw. There is no reason to center the work in the Index.


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## talvare (Jan 22, 2021)

What he said ^^^^^^
The work piece is just being rotated in the vise. The Rose Index just provides surfaces to use a square against to insure that the rotation is correct.
Ted


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## C-Bag (Jan 22, 2021)

My reason is because I don’t want to go through the complicated machining of the V in the ID to locate the work. The piece looks CNC’d and I don’t have that capability. And since I’m not going to add the hex feature either it’s easier to just make hub and put the three screws in it to hold the work securely. I’m not so worried about centering, yet. I have in my projects like making a key way and needed to reposition the shaft that this tool would have come in handy.


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## 7milesup (Jan 22, 2021)

C-Bag said:


> My reason is because I don’t want to go through the complicated machining of the V in the ID to locate the work. The piece looks CNC’d and I don’t have that capability. And since I’m not going to add the hex feature either it’s easier to just make hub and put the three screws in it to hold the work securely. I’m not so worried about centering, yet. I have in my projects like making a key way and needed to reposition the shaft that this tool would have come in handy.


It does have a V in the ID.  Don't you have a file?   That would be FNF instead of CNC.  File-N-File.

I too watched Tubalcain's video and had no idea I needed one of those.  Tool acquisition syndrome is right...


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## C-Bag (Jan 22, 2021)

Some things just get my TAS going and it’s because I’ve been in that situation and had to bodge something and it wasn’t fun or precise.

I would do filing if it was as easy as that. But it is not that simple. I couldnt file it as “Rose” does because the V is made as the ID is made, not after. The top of the v and the bottom of the V are at the ID. The sides of the V less than the ID. I’m sure there’s an engineering or proper machinist way to put that, but I’m neither.


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## Pcmaker (Jan 22, 2021)

How come I can't find this on Amazon or even eBay?

Does it go by another name? I'd rather buy one than buy a large piece of steel or aluminum to make one.


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## C-Bag (Jan 22, 2021)

Just do a Google and it comes up. Hold on to your shorts, it ain’t cheap. I commented to Mr.Pete it was the same price as buying a broach, doh!


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## Pcmaker (Jan 22, 2021)

There might be a market open for it on eBay or Amazon. I can't find it there. Someone contact SHARS.


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## talvare (Jan 22, 2021)

Rose-Index (lakeshorecarbide.com)

They probably only sell direct.

Ted


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## Larry$ (Jan 22, 2021)

It strikes me that the V that serves to hold the round work can be most any angle,  shape,  even not parallel to the outside faces and off center and not matter an nickels worth.  It is the outside surfaces of the block that are the rotational references. The work just needs to be held tightly to the block.   Your mill vice provides the constant axial reference for the work.  In order to maintain the outside diameter of the work as a reference, I.E. the multi sided work concentric to the round, your mill vice has to be gripping the round. This entire exercise is just another example of maintaining a constant reference.


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## AmericanMachinist (Jan 23, 2021)

Larry$ said:


> It strikes me that the V that serves to hold the round work can be most any angle,  shape,  even not parallel to the outside faces and off center and not matter an nickels worth.  It is the outside surfaces of the block that are the rotational references. The work just needs to be held tightly to the block.   Your mill vice provides the constant axial reference for the work.  In order to maintain the outside diameter of the work as a reference, I.E. the multi sided work concentric to the round, your mill vice has to be gripping the round. This entire exercise is just another example of maintaining a constant reference.


Good points.  For that matter, the round portion of the ID is equally non-critical to be round or centered, as far as i can surmise.   The key is that the clamping screw and V-saddle align to allow proper clamping. 

The reason this fact is valuable to me is that I do not have a rotary table to cut the partial circle.  I may cut a square, hex, etc.  

It also strikes me that one could mill the several 60 and 90 degree angles with good accuracy using angle blocks against a static reference.  For many, perhaps the bottom of their kurt vise.   I may need to take a slightly different approach but same concept.

I will add this to the list and probably make it from aluminum.  It seems the most force the tool should see is the axial load on the clamping screw threads.


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## C-Bag (Jan 23, 2021)

nobody has used one yet so we’re all guessing. My concern is if it’s not reasonably centered dollars to donuts the direction i want to rotate will interfere with like the table or something. As it is I thought Mr.Pete had to lift the work enough to clear the square point of the index to the next flat. So the ability to hold securely is necessary or what’s the point if you loose register. Mr.Pete would probably have some cool simple way of making that V in the ID too. Which I think would be the best way with just one grub screw to hold it to the work. But  IMHO it needs to be steel just because even steel gets nicks and dings in it that would throw off the measurement. Until I get practical use of the tool it’s all conjecture but a couple of uses and for me it will become clear what’s useful and whats over engineering. It’s why I got 2 plates to make indexes with


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## Larry$ (Jan 23, 2021)

As someone who operated a manufacturing business most of my life I learned that the KISS principle was most usually the best for my purposes.
Don't work to tenths when the product doesn't benefit. Complicating things usually leads to more errors. Time, $ & morale wasted! 

As for the Rose blocks. There are limits to the sizes that can be accommodated. The manufacturer acknowledges that by producing just two sizes. 

Ways to get around the limits: block the work up in the vice, use a jig to hold the work above the vice, block the vice up. Or better yet, use a different method more appropriate to the product. 

If you want to push the limits, that can be a fun exercise, after you've learned the benefits of the work of those that have gone before you.
Above all, have fun, be safe, and try not to peck with the people who take things too seriously.


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## Pcmaker (Jan 23, 2021)

The inventor of the Rose Index commented on the video


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## higgite (Jan 23, 2021)

C-Bag said:


> nobody has used one yet so we’re all guessing. My concern is if it’s not reasonably centered dollars to donuts the direction i want to rotate will interfere with like the table or something. As it is I thought Mr.Pete had to lift the work enough to clear the square point of the index to the next flat. So the ability to hold securely is necessary or what’s the point if you loose register. Mr.Pete would probably have some cool simple way of making that V in the ID too. Which I think would be the best way with just one grub screw to hold it to the work. But  IMHO it needs to be steel just because even steel gets nicks and dings in it that would throw off the measurement. Until I get practical use of the tool it’s all conjecture but a couple of uses and for me it will become clear what’s useful and whats over engineering. It’s why I got 2 plates to make indexes with


If you have a round bar clamped in a vise and you loosen the vise and rotate the bar and reclamp it, how will you lose register? The fixed jaw of the vise is your Y-axis register. If X-axis register is your worry, use a vise or table work stop to reposition it in that direction. What am I missing?

Tom


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## aliva (Jan 23, 2021)

I plan on using 1/2 moon pieces of steel and welded to the bottom to create the v for 3 point contact. Think of a woodruff key but larger to fit the bore, while maintaining  a 2" overall capacity. This would be much easier to create as opposed to trying  to mill a v. And yes to buy this  is very expensive. I think $ 150.00 each is too much. Considering once the CNC program is written it's a cash cow.


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## C-Bag (Jan 23, 2021)

when I say lose register I’m saying if the index doesn’t stay in place/comes loose then you’ve lost register/your place in relation to where it was originally. I guess it’s in relation to the original cut that I’m trying to index to the next thing I want to drill or mill. I don’t have the tech vernacular to convey properly.


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## rwm (Jan 23, 2021)

higgite said:


> If you have a round bar clamped in a vise and you loosen the vise and rotate the bar and reclamp it, how will you lose register? The fixed jaw of the vise is your Y-axis register. If X-axis register is your worry, use a vise or table work stop to reposition it in that direction. What am I missing?
> 
> Tom


I was confused about the use also. Watch the video in post #7. This is for rotational indexing, not X,Y. You can use a square on the table against the Rose index to index the rotation of the part.
R


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## higgite (Jan 23, 2021)

rwm said:


> I was confused about the use also. Watch the video in post #7. This is for rotational indexing, not X,Y. You can use a square on the table against the Rose index to index the rotation of the part.
> R


I did watch the video. A very innovative devise, IHMO. I was addressing C-bag's concern about losing indexing because the Rose Index isn’t symmetrical. My point was the work piece isn't positionally* indexed by the Rose Index, but by the vise, hence it doesn’t matter that the Rose Index isn’t symmetrical.

Tom

* Did i just make up a word?


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## aliva (Jan 24, 2021)

Check Randy Richards video he shows it's function
Rose Index Review | Never Seen One? - YouTube


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## epanzella (Jan 24, 2021)

90% of the guys I know have vices that came with a rotary base but it sits on the shelf. Need height for clearance just put the rotary base back on.


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## AmericanMachinist (Jan 24, 2021)

Edit:  re-working a couple of thoughts on the design incremental to what I posted here - will follow up.


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## Doug Gray (Feb 23, 2021)

Hey Guys

Just found this thread.

FYI I have a PDF digital download drawing available on at my store for a set of indexing plates. Less than $4US.


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## barnett (Feb 23, 2021)

Check out a video by Mr.PragmaticLee on youtube. He has a nice build video.


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## agshooter (Nov 21, 2021)

Go to the inventor's page directly. He has multiple versions including a "hobbyist" version made of aluminum which is cheaper than the steel version.
https://rosenthalproducts.com/collections/all


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