# How Did This Machinist Make This Surface Gauge?



## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

I love this surface gauge. It's an Ebay find. It's shop made, no markings on it at all.
It feels good to the hand, the quality is very good.

My questions,
How did he cut the rounded sides?
How did he round all the edges?
The top where the two angles meet, it's a clean, smooth transition.

I'd like to try to make one. I believe I have all the tooling.
I just don't know how to perform some of the cuts.
Thank you.
Jeff


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## Peyton Price 17 (Nov 30, 2021)

maybe used a radius cutter for the grooves, and a file for the round overs, but that would take some time. the top was probably milled or shaped and rounded with a file.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 30, 2021)

First things first . That is what we in the trade refer to a Toolmakers' Gauge being it has the 4 pins .  Other than that , it's easy to make on a manual mill and then finish ground .


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## wrat (Nov 30, 2021)

When I was a much younger man, I worked in a Tooling Department in a aircraft factory.  
There were such persons known as "Tool Makers" and this was typical of their output.
They did a LOT of grinding and a LOT of filing, well after their bandsaw work.
To them, lathes and mills were simply for "roughing in" the desired shape.  All else was hand work.  With files.
Lots of files.


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## jwmelvin (Nov 30, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> That is what we in the trade refer to a Toolmakers' Gauge being it has the 4 pins



How are the pins used?


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## mmcmdl (Nov 30, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> How are the pins used?


Used for checking parallelism on different applications . The pins are the contact points .


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## woodchucker (Nov 30, 2021)

the pins are used on the edge of a project, and can run down the length, to measure lets say an offset of another cut.. either for scribing, or for measuring


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## woodchucker (Nov 30, 2021)

as far as the roundness, like other have said filing. I don't think any of those were cut by a radius cutter.

But you can also get the same result on your own with out filing perfectly.
3 methods.. both should start with filing. Smoothing using:

a cratex stone (a rubberized stone, comes in a few grits just keep rubbing and it creates a round if you keep it in the same spot)
a wooden block with the shape you want (hard wood like maple)... drill it down the length (short amount with the grain) then cut off half) then use silicon carbide (wet/dry) sandpaper.
using a scotchbrite wheel.. (much less perfect)
both tedious compared to filing (also tedious) but less expertise required.


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## Mini Cooper S (Nov 30, 2021)

The seller may have advertised it as "shop made", but that looks absolutely identical to my Starrett surface gauge. If it is shop made, someone sure put a lot of work into duplicating every part perfectly.
Nice find by the way.
Richard


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## mmcmdl (Nov 30, 2021)

The last time I used any of my gauges , I aligned one of our cutoff saws in my current workplace . The linear slides were off compared to the rotating arbors for the 5 blades . I aligned both parallel and also heigth wise within .0005 . I then made up a block and taper pinned all so this was set for life . The supervisor saw this and said that this was way over the top for the operators that changed the blades . He pulled the pins and removed the back bearings off the ass end of the arbor .  Didn't matter to me . Anyways , I've sold 4 Starretts on this site in the past , I kept one small one just to look at and remember my past.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 30, 2021)

Mini Cooper S said:


> The seller may have advertised it as "shop made", but that looks absolutely identical to my Starrett surface gauge.


Starretts , at least all I've ever owned , had the cool looking HT colors left intact . Definately nice looking tools .


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## RJSakowski (Nov 30, 2021)

I think all the cuts could be made with manual machines and an RT to cut the arcs along with appropriate tooling.  It forsn't look like there was much file work or if there was, the machinist was very good.  Blending could be don with a flap wheel.


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## Peyton Price 17 (Nov 30, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Starretts , at least all I've ever owned , had the cool looking HT colors left intact . Definately nice looking tools .


I have a very old Starrett on, not a single bit of blueing or heat treat visible. it looks very close to it


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## John281 (Nov 30, 2021)

Perhaps the pieces spent some time in a deburring tumbler?


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## Alcap (Nov 30, 2021)

A beautiful piece of work ! Could the radius be done by a planner with a tool ground like that or if none available a vertical mill with the head tilted ?


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## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

How did he cut the rounded sides?
I do have a large ball end mill.
I guess a fly cutter could cut those grooves as well??


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## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

Alcap said:


> A beautiful piece of work ! Could the radius be done by a planner with a tool ground like that or if none available a vertical mill with the head tilted ?


Beats me.


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## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

Mini Cooper S said:


> The seller may have advertised it as "shop made", but that looks absolutely identical to my Starrett surface gauge. If it is shop made, someone sure put a lot of work into duplicating every part perfectly.
> Nice find by the way.
> Richard


Maybe they ground off the logo? It's professionally made for sure.


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## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

wrat said:


> To them, lathes and mills were simply for "roughing in" the desired shape. All else was hand work. With files.
> Lots of files.


I guess this is a lost art.
I would love to be able to do this type of work.


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## benmychree (Nov 30, 2021)

I have to agree that this was not shop made, it reeks of factory made in all the small details.


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## benmychree (Nov 30, 2021)

The bodies on the Starrett surface gages are not stamped, only the staff is stamped.


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## plunger (Nov 30, 2021)

This was a standard project that all apprentice toolmakers did in their first year of training here in S Africa.I have to think back thirty years. . We had to do the block on the shaper and blend the transition in with file work. The radius on the sides was done on a horizontal mill with a shell type radius cutter supported in an outrigger so it was very sturdy ,running on an arbor. It did the groove in one cut.

Then there was filing of the piece that has curves. This was made of gauge plate . It fitted into a slot done with a slot cutter. The block was then case hardened to teach us how to pack it with a carbon filled blend of bone meal and other stuff Ive forgotten. It was then surface ground and polished. The slot was reground and the gauge plate ground to suit the slot. It was then polished because the case hardening made it look terrible and distorted it quite badly. My name was put in with a pantograph to teach you how to use a deckel pantagraph machine.  The lathework involved taught us how to knurl and thread .The arm and bits was made of silver steel.
We also made a toolmakers vice and sinebar to teach us cylindridal grinding. I had my vice stolen.To this day Im still ****** off about it being stolen. To this day it was the most beautiful vise ever saw . It was very different to the toolmakers vices you see as the jaw had alot of fancy curves machined and blended in.It was ground perfectly true in every orientation.  I wish I looked after all my homemade tools. They have been neglected and have rusted quite bad. I think to be successful in this job it needs to be hardened and ground tovbe of the quality like starret would produce.


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## woodchucker (Nov 30, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Starretts , at least all I've ever owned , had the cool looking HT colors left intact . Definately nice looking tools .


I destroyed the colors on a couple of my machinists clamps. I put them in vinegar or something to derust them and the color went away... I was not a happy camper.


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## vtcnc (Nov 30, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> Used for checking parallelism on different applications . The pins are the contact points .





woodchucker said:


> the pins are used on the edge of a project, and can run down the length, to measure lets say an offset of another cut.. either for scribing, or for measuring


If you drop two pins, you can run the pins along the edge of a surface plate and use that as your straight line reference.


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## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

benmychree said:


> I have to agree that this was not shop made, it reeks of factory made in all the small details.


How was it made John?
How would you cut the sides? Where your fingers would pick it up?


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## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

plunger said:


> The radius on the sides was done on a horizontal mill with a shell type radius cutter supported in an outrigger so it was very sturdy ,running on an arbor. It did the groove in one cut.


Thanks Mate!


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## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

plunger said:


> made of silver steel


? Stainless?


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## Janderso (Nov 30, 2021)

plunger said:


> I think to be successful in this job it needs to be hardened and ground tovbe of the quality like starret would produce.


If I decide to make one and it comes out well, I will send it out for heat treatment.

That's the next question, what material to use?


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## Alcap (Nov 30, 2021)

Went out to the garage and rummaged through the scrap box to find my quite unfinished ones . VoTech project that started 45 years ago . Maybe this will light a fire under my a** lol .  If I remember they are tool steel that we would have heat treated and ground.


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## Bob Korves (Nov 30, 2021)

I have a number of old tools that are beautifully made and have no maker's marks at all on them.  I just enjoy the great deals I got on them and get on with life, not really caring who made them.  But then, I have never been a sucker for buying top rated tools at top pricing with a "best" reputation due to the name on it, when there are equal quality vintage tools available at MUCH lower pricing...


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## woodchucker (Nov 30, 2021)

Alcap said:


> Went out to the garage and rummaged through the scrap box to find my quite unfinished ones . VoTech project that started 45 years ago . Maybe this will light a fire under my a** lol .  If I remember they are tool steel that we would have heat treated and ground.


never finished??? Never really started maybe


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## plunger (Nov 30, 2021)

Janderso said:


> ? Stainless?


No . O1 . We call it silver steel.Its just easy and cheap tool steal. I think you call it o1


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## Alcap (Nov 30, 2021)

I can’t remember for sure but if you look at the slot on the one it looks like I didn’t drill the hole for the spring correctly  and grabbed and piece of stock .


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## woodchucker (Nov 30, 2021)

@Janderso 
This is a Starrett, it's got sharp edges. yours may be a different size, they made a few, this only has 2 pins.. I know some had 4 pins..


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## jwmelvin (Nov 30, 2021)

mmcmdl said:


> The last time I used any of my gauges …. I kept one small one just to look at and remember my past.



Aren’t they useful for holding a DTI to measure parts on a surface plate? I was doing that yesterday and then decided to use my height gauge instead. Or say, for example, I want to measure a pin in a v-block to see if it’s straight; surface gauge would be the way to hold an indicator?


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## woodchucker (Nov 30, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> Aren’t they useful for holding a DTI to measure parts on a surface plate? I was doing that yesterday and then decided to use my height gauge instead. Or say, for example, I want to measure a pin in a v-block to see if it’s straight; surface gauge would be the way to hold an indicator?


yep, both are useful, also it can hang over a lot farther than a height gauge. both have their purposes.
I use mine more with a DTI, and leave my height gauge with a scribe.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 30, 2021)

jwmelvin said:


> Aren’t they useful for holding a DTI to measure parts on a surface plate? I was doing that yesterday and then decided to use my height gauge instead. Or say, for example, I want to measure a pin in a v-block to see if it’s straight; surface gauge would be the way to hold an indicator?


Sure they are , but I have numerous other indicator holders that would do the same thing of higher quality . I was downsizing what I didn't use or need . Height gauge and nice drop indicator holders etc .


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## Technical Ted (Nov 30, 2021)

plunger said:


> No . O1 . We call it silver steel.Its just easy and cheap tool steal. I think you call it o1


In the US we also call it drill rod when in round stock.

Ted


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## Mini Cooper S (Dec 1, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Maybe they ground off the logo? It's professionally made for sure.


For what it's worth, the only Starrett logo on mine is on the rod, and no that's not my surface plate, that's my wife's granite counter top!


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## Janderso (Dec 1, 2021)

Mini Cooper S said:


> For what it's worth, the only Starrett logo on mine is on the rod, and no that's not my surface plate, that's my wife's granite counter top!
> 
> 
> View attachment 387006


Thanks,
I'll check


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## Janderso (Dec 1, 2021)

Bob Korves said:


> I have never been a sucker for buying top rated tools at top pricing with a "best" reputation due to the name on it, when there are equal quality vintage tools available at MUCH lower pricing...


Bob,
I would agree, I do have one exception though.
I had to have Starrett Tap wrenches. 91A and 91B. Surprisingly though, I had to clean and polish the action to get that smooth operation. There was grit and burrs on both when I opened them when brand new.
I was sick of the taps coming loose. Once you have used one of these, there is no going back to the dark side. IMHO





__





						91B Tap Wrench
					

The Starrett 91 Tap Wrench is strong and well proportioned. It is nicely finished and the gripping surface is properly tempered. It will firmly hold square or round shanks. It is plunger operated by knurled sleeve, the spring inside the sleeve causes plunger to back off when pressure is removed...




					www.starrett.com


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## Cadillac (Dec 1, 2021)

I have two the size you are talking of and two about half the size of the one in question all handmade. The one on the far right is a lufkin. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
The middle one in the back and the two smaller ones were made by a talented fella named Rudy lung back in 63. The one in the back row far left was my first one same design as yours also with no markings. it’s my nicest one use all the time.
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
These seem fairly easy to make. Hardest part would be the bore for the pivoting arm. Bore has a taper that leads to a deep bore.
I made a gauge base for tool height on my lathe. Fluted the sides with a large ball end mill. Not the same as gauge base in question. 
	

		
			
		

		
	




My guess is they used a horizontal mill with a specially ground mill cutter. Nice little project with a mill and SG.


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## Janderso (Dec 1, 2021)

Cadillac said:


> My guess is they used a horizontal mill with a specially ground mill cutter. Nice little project with a mill and SG.


Makes sense.
Yeah, I think this is a great project. It will challenge me for sure.


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## Bob Korves (Dec 1, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Bob,
> I would agree, I do have one exception though.
> I had to have Starrett Tap wrenches. 91A and 91B. Surprisingly though, I had to clean and polish the action to get that smooth operation. There was grit and burrs on both when I opened them when brand new.
> I was sick of the taps coming loose. Once you have used one of these, there is no going back to the dark side. IMHO
> ...


I don't mind at all having to clean up and re-fit old tooling bought at bargain prices.  After getting them working properly, fits adressed and nicely cleaned up and polished (also often left with the existing patina, to better remember the previous owner(s)), I then have nice warm memories every time I use the tool.  Buying new Starrett tools (nice as they are) with their sky high pricing, does not get me that same feel good smile...  Confession -- My name is Bob Korves, and I am a tightwad... ;-)


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## Janderso (Dec 1, 2021)

Bob Korves said:


> My name is Bob Korves, and I am a tightwad... ;-)


You can take that to the bank


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## Kevin T (Dec 2, 2021)

Cadillac said:


> I made a gauge base for tool height on my lathe.


That's awesome. I am adding this to my rainy day project list!


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## Janderso (Dec 2, 2021)

I am convinced it's a Starrett.
It has the name on the rod and the black paint on the base kind of gives it away.
Plus, the base alignment pins have a spring to preload the action.
This was professionally done in my opinion, which doesn't account for much.


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## Bob Korves (Dec 2, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I am convinced it's a Starrett.
> It has the name on the rod and the black paint on the base kind of gives it away.
> Plus, the base alignment pins have a spring to preload the action.
> This was professionally done in my opinion, which doesn't account for much.


I have one like it, and have seen many others like it, in multiple sizes and configurations.  Yep, it is a Starrett...


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## francist (Dec 2, 2021)

Diverging slightly, I found this one a while back that I’m pretty sure is shop made. I like the design — it’s quite pleasing but very basic. Fine adjustment for height is via the large knurled collar, the thumbscrew locks the height (I think). A while later I ran across what looked like the drawings for it in an old Southbend projects booklet so my guess is it was built from that. It’s pretty simple, would make a nice starter project for the lathe.






-frank


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## Janderso (Dec 2, 2021)

Bob Korves said:


> I have one like it, and have seen many others like it, in multiple sizes and configurations.  Yep, it is a Starrett...


To my benefit, the guy that sold it to me thought it was shop made.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.


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## Kevin T (Dec 2, 2021)

You guys got me curious about the one I have collecting dust on the shelf. I found the stamp. Lufkin model 520. I am missing the shorter arm and scribe tool but the end scribe is there. The base is a little too big to use as a cutter height checker for my lathe. I'll keep an eye out for a smaller one that can fit on the flat that the compound pivots on. If I were to make a custom length arm for it what kind of steel would be a good choice that's not too tough to work with?


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