# Monarch 10ee round dial Repair



## vettebob (Aug 28, 2013)

I thought I'd start a new thread showing progress as I work on the Lathe. I removed the motor generator today and disassembled it. I have been debating on on a few different options to power this thing. I may cut down the motor generator housing and turn it into strictly a generator then couple a 5hp single phase motor to it  keeping all the original electrical intact for wow factor. Or I have been thinking about stripping all the electrical making a shaft adaptor and installing a vfd with a braking resistor which I have already and wiring it to keep the original elsr features with modern technology. The first option would be fun to clean up and show off. The second would modernize the Lathe make it much more efficient (draw less current) and make it less maintenance intensive less moving parts no brushes or commutator to clean. I am going to have to replace a lot of the paper wrapped wire and some of the other wiring any way due to deterioration. 

What do you all think; original type or newer technology. I'm kind of leaning towards the newer technology.  Robert


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## Cal Haines (Aug 28, 2013)

Did you get my reply to your e-mail?

_Cal_


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## vettebob (Aug 28, 2013)

Cal My camera battery died.I have to buy a new one before I can take any more pics. I'm going to best buy tomorrow hopefully they will have one. I'm putting the info together I had already removed the motor generator and dis assembled it yesterday. The Lathe  is a Feb 1944 serial number 24628.
The Motor info is 230 volt armature 12a 115 volt field 1.5a max 400 ohm rheostat. I appreciate your help and will send pics as soon as possible.  Robert


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## Cal Haines (Aug 29, 2013)

vettebob said:


> I thought I'd start a new thread showing progress as I work on the Lathe. I removed the motor generator today and disassembled it. I have been debating on on a few different options to power this thing. I may cut down the motor generator housing and turn it into strictly a generator then couple a 5hp single phase motor to it  keeping all the original electrical intact for wow factor. Or I have been thinking about stripping all the electrical making a shaft adaptor and installing a vfd with a braking resistor which I have already and wiring it to keep the original elsr features with modern technology. The first option would be fun to clean up and show off. The second would modernize the Lathe make it much more efficient (draw less current) and make it less maintenance intensive less moving parts no brushes or commutator to clean. I am going to have to replace a lot of the paper wrapped wire and some of the other wiring any way due to deterioration.
> 
> What do you all think; original type or newer technology. I'm kind of leaning towards the newer technology.  Robert


Hi Robert,

You have the machine tool equivalent of a 60's muscle car.  Ripping the DC spindle motor out and cramming in a AC motor with VFD is like "upgrading" a '67 Corvette by ripping out the big block V-8 and stuffing in the engine from some import:  the new engine might be fuel injected and computer controlled, and maybe even turbocharged, but it will never have the low end of that big 427 L88, will it?  And it will never be a classic car again.  The 3HP DC motor in your machine is very much a part of the reason that 10EEs are held in such high regard as fine toolroom lathes.

Maintenance on an MG machine is not a problem.  MG drives are extremely reliable and robust; that's why there are so many still around after six or seven decades!  Your machine probably has new brushes and you'll likely never need to touch them.  If you did, it's a quick job.  You'd be able to change the brushes hundreds of times before you invested the time it will take you to adapt an AC motor to the back-gear unit and have a decent machine.  Making the ELSR work with a VFD is going to take a lot of additional work and you can forget about your rapid reverse feature.

There's no need to carve up your MG either.  First, I doubt a 5HP single-phase motor is going to fit in the base.  Second, your 2-phase motor is like a single-phase motor on steroids:  single phase motors have two sets of winding, a run winding and a starting winding, which are electrically isolated and set up to provide a phase shift at start up.  Two-phase motors also have two isolated sets of windings, the difference is that both windings on the two-phase motor can stay powered all the time; the starting winding on a single-phase motor will burn up if left connected.

I checked with my mentor, Bill W. (a retired industrial electrician who's forgotten more about industrial motors and controls than I can ever hope to learn), and he confirms that the two-phase motor can be started just like a single-phase motor, using a suitable relay and starting capacitors.  Run capacitors can be added to improve performance.

Bill also has an idea for running the motor from a 3-phase rotary phase converter:  a small boost transformer would be used in addition to the grounded common from the breaker panel.  Do you have an RPC or plans to have other machines with 3-phase motors in the future?

_Cal_


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## vettebob (Aug 29, 2013)

I have a import lathe and a Bridgeport both using VFD's. I have been thinking about this and will probably keep the original Motor and  Electrical system. I am going to start unloading everything from my Truck. Dis-assembling and cleaning next then repair and paint. I'm going to tackle it one small piece at a time. My new lathe is most likely going to turn into a restoration project. However I'm not going for the glossy completely smooth surface. I was thinking more of a hammered paint finish.  Robert


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## vettebob (Sep 1, 2013)

Well It looks like I'm going for a full blown restoration keeping all the original electrical but with new wiring. I started stripping paint this weekend. 4 coats of paint on everything.  Robert


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## vettebob (Sep 18, 2013)

Took 2 tachs and turned them into one functional one. Here's a pic
	

		
			
		

		
	




6 to one gearbox repair next.  Robert


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## vettebob (Sep 29, 2013)

I repaired my 6 to 1 gearbox output gear today. Here's some pics.
	

		
			
		

		
	








	

		
			
		

		
	
I used a ER100s welding filler rod. Then tried milling them with a new 3/8 M42 end mill and dulled it before I got 2 teeth cut so I machined the rest with a carbide end mill. The teeth are still slightly softer than the mating gears dogs.Even though they are slightly softer they should still last my lifetime. I could do a full heat treat on the gear but am afraid it will warp when it cools.   I made the dogs .225 high they are about .015 higher than the mating gear dogs.  Bob


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## Cal Haines (Sep 30, 2013)

Nice work!  What kind of welder did you use?  Do you have a hardness tester?

You might want to put a little bit of chamfer on the corners so that it will engage easier.

_Cal_


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## vettebob (Sep 30, 2013)

Cal Haines said:


> Nice work!  What kind of welder did you use?  Do you have a hardness tester?
> 
> You might want to put a little bit of chamfer on the corners so that it will engage easier.
> 
> _Cal_



I used a tig welder. Sorry no hardness tester.


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## Chuck K (Sep 30, 2013)

Nice work.  I love it when things work out.

Chuck


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## Ray C (Sep 30, 2013)

Really nice job on that gear repair!

From my experiences doing TIG weld build-ups with ER70s, the weld cap is pretty hard and will dull HSS very quickly -can even give carbide a run for it's money even after all the irregular surfaces are leveled-out.  I've never measured the hardness but if I had to take a guess, I'd estimate around 45 RC (purely a guess based on machining metal known to be that hard).  Mind you, my experiences are limited to repairing shafts with butchered key slots and the repairs are all done with the lathe.  Most of the time, I cannot normalize and re-harden the workpiece because I don't really know what the metal is.

Also, yes, if you knew what metal that gear was made of and if you tried to heat treat it, it would warp due to the stresses imposed by the welding.  That center hole would probably go out-of-round is my guess.  Right on... leave it alone.

Again... nice repair.

Ray



vettebob said:


> I used a tig welder. Sorry no hardness tester.


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## vettebob (Nov 17, 2013)

Here are some pictures of my latest repairs. The forward and reverse gear's bearing surface in my headstock were shot so I turned then ground the shafts with my small homemade grinder then turned and installed bronze iolite bushings.
	

		
			
		

		
	



View attachment 64612

	

		
			
		

		
	
 It took a couple of days to do but hopefully it will last another 20 or 30 years.  Bob


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## vettebob (Dec 6, 2013)

Here are some more pics of progress
	

		
			
		

		
	







	

		
			
		

		
	
I cleaned up the accumulator dial and made a new brass disc for the lock.


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## vettebob (Dec 6, 2013)

...
I found new Timken bearing set 28580/28521 Class 0 tapered roller for the rear spindle $200 
New Departure c8504 for the belt tensioner $17 each at Locate Bearings.  Bob
They also have the Front bearing set 29580/29521B Class 0 set for $370 But my front spindle bearings look good. I will check them when I get the headstock back together again and order them if needed.  Bob


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## Cal Haines (Dec 7, 2013)

vettebob said:


> ...
> I found new Timken bearing set 28580/28521 Class 0 tapered roller for the rear spindle $200
> New Departure c8504 for the belt tensioner $17 each at Locate Bearings.  Bob
> They also have the Front bearing set 29580/29521B Class 0 set for $370 But my front spindle bearings look good. I will check them when I get the headstock back together again and order them if needed.  Bob


That's a real good price for class 0 bearings.  A set of class 3 front  and rear bearings (which is the next class down from class 0) for my Van  Norman mill was $504.  Class 0 weren't available, short of a special  order.  I think you'd be silly not to grab the class 0 front bearings at  that price.

_Cal_


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## vettebob (Dec 7, 2013)

I took my 10EE bed to get it reground yesterday I was quoted not to exceed $1600 at KC Machine. Won't get it back until January sometime
.
I also bought a Like new import 6x18 Surface grinder for $800 and $100 in gas to regrind my saddle and cross slide to prep for Moglice or Turcite. I've never used a surface grinder before. Hopefully it's not too difficult to use. I am the third owner and it's original wheel is like new. I think the people who had it before didn't have a clue. The shipping grease is still on the ball ways. The spindle was slid out and barely coupled to the motor  and the wheel wasn't balanced causing vibration. 

Cal I will probably buy the front bearing set as well, I just have to make some more money to support this hobby.


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## rw1 (Dec 12, 2013)

vettebob said:


> I took my 10EE bed to get it reground yesterday I was quoted not to exceed $1600 at KC Machine. Won't get it back until January sometime
> .
> I just have to make some more money to support this hobby.



How true it is!  A good hobby to have though…..

Nice work on the Resto!


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## vettebob (Dec 13, 2013)

I made some more parts today. 2 of the steady rest adjusting knobs were broken off and missing so I made replacement adjusting screws and Knobs. Here's some more pics.


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## Cal Haines (Dec 13, 2013)

vettebob said:


> I made some more parts today. 2 of the steady rest adjusting knobs were broken off and missing so I made replacement adjusting screws and Knobs. Here's some more pics.
> View attachment 65925


Nice work.

That part is overdue for redesign.  Every one that I've come across is bent.  I don't know why they used such a large diameter pin.

_Cal_


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## vettebob (Dec 27, 2013)

Here's an update, I started doing the body work on the Lathe bed. I pressure washed 2 coats of paint off then stripped the remaining 2 coats. Her are 2 pics back side bare metal front side all bondo'd up. I sand the bare metal to remove the surface rust then apply bondo. When I get everything bondo'd I will prime it with a 2 part epoxy primer. then prep for paint.


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## Cal Haines (Dec 27, 2013)

Bob,

The bondo work looks great.  (I know how much work that is.)  I'm guessing this isn't your first rodeo...

You probably know this, but for less experienced readers, be very careful with epoxy paints.  A lot of the high-end industrial paints use isocyanate hardeners which are very toxic and require special protective equipment, such as a supplied-air respirator.  It's always a good idea to get the MSDS for the paint AND hardener and check the cautions.

_Cal_


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## vettebob (Dec 27, 2013)

I've painted a few cars in my younger days. Everyone pay attention to Cal's advice my 2k primer does have some nasty stuff in it and it's hard to sand. The only advantage to it is it's durable. That's why I'm going to use it on all top surfaces where coolant or cutting fluids are. Everything else will be done in urethane primer. I bought a gallon of graphite gray urethane to paint the lathe in. I will be using a fullface respirator.  Bob


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## vettebob (Dec 30, 2013)

Made a new cross feed Leadscrew today here's a pic of the old one and  the new one. I started with a nook screw then turned it down, threaded the short end and slotted the long end for the telescopic function and soldered the solid bushing on the slotted end. Bob


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## DAN_IN_MN (Dec 30, 2013)

vettebob said:


> Made a new cross feed Leadscrew today here's a pic of the old one and  the new one. I started with a nook screw then turned it down, threaded the short end and slotted the long end for the telescopic function and soldered the solid bushing on the slotted end. Bob



Bob

What was wrong with the old one?  Worn?

Just read your thread.  Nice work.


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## vettebob (Dec 30, 2013)

Thanks The old one was worn about 10 thou in the middle I ordered a new nut as well off the guy on ebay. My only concern is it's brass not bronze.


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## vettebob (Jan 7, 2014)

Got my first coat of primer on the lathe bed today. I'm going to pick up my lathe bed on Thursday from the grinders. Here's a couple of pictures.  Bob


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## vettebob (Jan 10, 2014)

I picked up my Lathe bed from the grinders Thursday. Unfortunately I got the flu and can't play.  Maybe I can finish sanding and reprime the lathe bed in a couple of days.  Bob


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## vettebob (Jan 20, 2014)

Painted the Lathe Bed today here's a couple of pics.  Bob


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## valleyboy101 (Jan 20, 2014)

Hi Bob,
That is one magnificent finish - with all the work of stripping, filling and painting you must be pretty proud.  Looks like custom car quality.  If you could please answer one question.  I have a lathe (Cromwell) which is suppose to have a tachometer driven off the motor armature voltage - do Monarch use electricity or mechanical means to drive the tach?
Thanks,
Michael


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## vettebob (Jan 20, 2014)

Thanks for the compliment. I spent 2 weeks prepping for paint. Monarch uses a mechanical tach.  Bob


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## Cal Haines (Jan 21, 2014)

Bob,

Looks great!  Is that a metal flake paint?

_Cal_


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## vettebob (Jan 21, 2014)

Yes It's metallic graphite grey. Bob


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## Chuck K (Jan 21, 2014)

Wow!!  That's going to be one pretty machine!  You're going to shame me into to painting mine...lol.

Chuck


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## toag (Jan 21, 2014)

nice work vettebob!
is that brushed on or sprayed?


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## vettebob (Jan 21, 2014)

It is automotive single stage urethane paint sprayed on with a hvlp paint gun.  Bob


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## vettebob (May 8, 2014)

I haven't posted anything for a while here's my progress. I installed  removed and scraped the bottom of the headstock 20 times. My final results are .00027 down and .0001 towards the operator at 12". Taking test bar sag of .00017 into account that puts the headstock within  .0002 over 12".  Bob


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## vettebob (May 8, 2014)

I ground the tailstock base and installed bronze shim stock. The base was worn .026 with most of the wear at the front.
	

		
			
		

		
	



Rebuilt the worm gear. The internal key was worn by over .060 and the gear had .020 oval wear inside. I bored the gear to .874 then took a piece of .875 by .065 wall tube bored it to .753 and cut a 3/16 key way in it. The new feed shaft is .749. The key was welded to the sleeve then the sleeve was pressed in with locktite 609 bearing adhesive. I will drill and install a set screw on each end the weld the screw to prevent movement.


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## vettebob (May 8, 2014)

Steady rest finished


	

		
			
		

		
	
  Bob


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## samthedog (May 8, 2014)

Lovely job! I am sure you mentioned how you painted the lathe but I missed it. Did you spray it or roll / brush it?

Paul.


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## vettebob (May 9, 2014)

Sprayed it. with single stage automotive paint


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## vettebob (Dec 18, 2014)

It's been a while since I updated my work in progress. After a year of searching I finally Found a new front spindle bearing for my EE I already replaced the rear bearing. Here are some pics of my 5hp back max motor retrofit with gearbox .
	

		
			
		

		
	







After running the Motor I found I had a vibration coming from the gearbox. I ended up making new shift sliders .050 oversize and truing up the groove in the dog gear. The vibration was better but I was still not satisfied so I replaced all the bearings in the gear box with new sealed bearings. I finally got rid of the vibration problem. I'm happy with it now. Tomorrow I'll post pics on my compound and carriage scraping. I hosted one of Richard Kings scraping classes and learned how to scrape in ways.  Bob


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## chips&more (Dec 18, 2014)

VERY, VERY, VERY, nice!


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## samthedog (Dec 19, 2014)

It makes my lovely little Chipmaster look dowdy in comparison. That lathe is looking stunning and considering the time you are putting in to it getting it to run smooth and true, it will be a masterpiece when finished.

Paul.


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## vettebob (Dec 19, 2014)

Thanks for the compliment.  After getting the drive operating smoothly. I scraped in my crosslide then machined my saddle for moglice. Here is the set-up to moglice the saddle. I made adjusting brackets for the 4 corners. then adjusted the crosslide to 0.0001 towards the headstock in 6". After getting everything adjusted I mogliced the saddle. There is one imperfection where a air pocket formed I may go back and repair it later. I also ran all new oil lines (what a pain that was)  Here are some pics. I will show what my measurements ended up at tomorrow.  Bob


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## vettebob (Dec 21, 2014)

Ok here is what I ended up with. 0.0001 sag over 12" .0002 towards the operator over 12" and 0.0001 concave over 6" Total run out .0003 over 12" 







The oiler in the apron oils everything really well. I can see why these lathes last so long I'll probably be buying oil by the bucket:thumbsup2:


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## vettebob (Dec 22, 2014)

As it's winter now and can't finish paiting the last parts I decided to put the lathe together and play a little. This lathe is so much more rigid and has more power than I will ever need. I played until I reduced a 1-1/2 by 12" 1018 bar to nothing. I even got a decent finish. .125 cut no problem even at 1000 rpm finishing cut a 2800 rpm with carbide something I couldn't even think about befor works well. 060 cut in o1 pushed my 3/8 tooling to the max I will have to get some larger tooling.  Bob


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