# Group Project: Dividing Head - The Build



## Flyinfool (May 22, 2021)

This will be the build thread for the group built Dividing head we will all be posting notes, pics, vids? of our progress, there can also be discussion about setups or how to do some things, order of operations or anything else that comes up pertaining to making the parts.
The original thread with all of the planing and design discussions, is here.








						Group Project:  Dividing Head - Organization and Design
					

A thread discussing the actual build is included below.  This thread has been dedicated to the design and organizational phase of the project.   Read this thread to understand what we are discussing in the follow on thread here...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				



The files attached to this first post will be kept up to date with all the latest changes and revisions.
Before starting anything, this post is the place to look for the latest info.

This is gonna be some fun....

For the files listed, I can not add a new sheet to the Drawings PDF but I can delete sheets, So for the changes I am removing the old sheet from the PDF and then just posting the individual new sheets. WHen I get around to redoing the main PDF all of the correct sheets will be in it.


----------



## rwm (May 22, 2021)

Jeff and I have been communicating about the gear shift. The original design was for a 2 piece assembly that came apart in the middle. I have made a revision to use a one piece body with a locking collar. This will be much easier to machine and has other potential advantages. I am attaching a step file to show this part. You will have to envision the locking collar which is not shown. Comments invited.

Who is making the bushings for the spindle? PM me.

Robert

Edit: I have revised the step file to show the shaft collar. And I just realized it will not work as exactly drawn but it gives you the idea. The collar will interfere with the trunion in this drawing. I will need to reduce the collar diameter slightly. From my review of Jeff's design the shaft collar cannot exceed 1.3" diameter to prevent interference. Can someone double check me?
Robert

Edit#2: Reduced the shaft collar size to 1.3". I would use a 8-32 screw to clamp. Because the gear shift only rotates 180 deg you can position the head of the locking screw away from the trunion so it is OK if it sticks up a little. It would be partially counterbored.

Robert


----------



## Brento (May 22, 2021)

Perfect.


----------



## ErichKeane (May 22, 2021)

A little more work today, on a different topic since my lathe is out of commission thanks to buying an electric car (long story!).

I need an acme single point tool for 4tpi. I started with a 3/4" piece of HSS, and used an angle grinder plus the tool grinder to rough it out.



Next I put it in my magnetic sine chuck (which some of you helped me fix!) And went to town! I ground a perfect 14.5 degree angle on both sides a 5 degree side relief (helix angle is a touch less than that) and a 10 degree top rake.  A little polishing with a stone to smooth it out, plus some work slightly rounding the corners should hopefully get me enough of a tool to knock out 8 of these!


----------



## rwm (May 23, 2021)

So are you actually making the worm? I assumed we would just buy some acme rod. Is your plan to make a long rod and then cut it in eight sections? Will you also be making the hob?
Robert


----------



## ErichKeane (May 23, 2021)

rwm said:


> So are you actually making the worm? I assumed we would just buy some acme rod. Is your plan to make a long rod and then cut it in eight sections? Will you also be making the hob?
> Robert



Shotgun already sent me a hob he'd used in the past plus a piece of 1-4 acme rod.  I've got to figure out how to use it, and probably make a shaft-extension for it at one point (as well as a way to mount it to my cross slide!).

However, I'm going to try to single-point the threads onto the end of the shaft as I've been wanting to try it!  The original plans called for what you said, so if I need to, I can turn off my thread-attempt and either loctite a piece of the threaded rod on the end, or bolt it on like the original plans.


----------



## Flyinfool (May 24, 2021)

New drawing files are posted.
I have combined DH029 and DH030 into one part that is now DH 022. There is also a new part DH 023 to go with the new shifter.
This has eliminated AY3 so all those parts were moved to AY1. 
BOM is update with some parts removed and others added.


----------



## ErichKeane (May 24, 2021)

Alright, a little more work today, operation #1 on the worm driven gear. This is basically to bore the center out to 1.500 +.002/-.000 (ps... what amount of rounding am I allowed here ?).

First step was to get it setup in the lathe, easy enough with a center punch and live center :




Then drill 1/4" to clear for a bigger drill :
	

		
			
		

		
	




Then 47/64", my biggest drill bit  



Next, a small boring bar to get the hole wide enough for big mama:



Finally, big mama herself on a slower feed and with more care to each cut:



#1: 1.506



Then, face it off so I have a smooth side to work with:



#2: 1.5023. perhaps a little large, hopefully there is some wiggle room to that + .002 




And #3:while uploading these pics I noticed I was 22 thou under, not 3 over! So I tried to fix it, and ended right back at 3 over :/

Fortunately these are kinda practice/spare wheels for everyone, I think rwm intends to cast us all brass ones, do hopefully these will just be backups for everyone.

Anyway, next shop day is working on the rest! I'd love to get this down so they I can get the brass ones finished easily and with less hassle.


----------



## Brento (May 24, 2021)

Nice work. I have not got the chance to do much on my parts. This week is hectic right now with the holiday. I did order a boring bar for one of my parts and order some material i need so i should be ready to fly soon i hope. Gonna start with the easy stuff to feel accomplished.


----------



## Brento (May 24, 2021)

I have a question for you guys to kinda throw some ideas around. For the index body it has a .312 +.005-.000. Someone mentioned to me that i could possible go in there with a counterbore and a pilot on that hole. It is 1.5" deep so i am skeptical. Just kinda gettin ideas and thoughts?


----------



## Flyinfool (May 24, 2021)

I never tried to C'bore that deep.
You could experiment on a piece of scrap to see how it works out. You may need to do a lot of pecking to clear chips.

It would be hard to reach that deep with a boring bar. It would take a solid carbide bar to do it.

The other option is to drill just a bit under size and then run a reamer in to the bottom.


----------



## Brento (May 24, 2021)

I have a micro 100 boring tool on the way. I have thought of a reamer but bc of the reamer being chamfered in the bottom it would not give you the nice flat bottom. I am also held back by a drill chuck for my little lathe that holds a max of 1/4". I ham thinking of making an adaptor to put in my chuck so i can hold bigger drills.

On a second note i finish to tools today i needed to do for my parts. A 45 and 30 chamfer tool. Still need to hone the radius tools.


----------



## rwm (May 26, 2021)

12L14 on the way:


It occurs to me that some of these parts are probably best done as matched set. For example, Erik is doing the spindle. To get a close tolerance on the spindle nut is going to be hard without measuring the spindle threads over wires and having a go/no go gauge for the nuts. If you are making both parts then matching the threads by trial with the nut is much easier. If there is slight variation in the spindle threads you might want to have matched pairs that stay together.  I suppose if Erik nails every spindle to be identical or we accept a lower class of fit on the nut it could work out. Thoughts?
Non threaded mating parts are easier. I will ream the bore of the shifter so as long as the worm shaft is <9/16 it will go.
Robert


----------



## rwm (May 26, 2021)

I got some work done on part #23-0001.




I have questions about boring this out. What is the best approach for a hole this long (3.14"). I was considering drilling undersize and then making each end of the hole concentric with a boring bar, then reaming to final ID. Do you have a better idea? If I drill all the way through, the exit hole may be off concentricity more than I would like?

Robert


----------



## ErichKeane (May 26, 2021)

I would do either a D-bit drill, or exactly what you're suggesting (drill for boring bar clearance followed by boring bar followed by reamer).


----------



## Flyinfool (May 27, 2021)

Actually the concentricity of the bore is not critical, the eccentric makes the gear mesh fully adjustable for both centering and backlash. The only things that are critical is that the hole and shaft are both straight so that the shaft will spin nice and the diameter of the hole to be a good fit to the shaft.

I think @ErichKeane idea should work well.


----------



## Brento (May 27, 2021)

Question where could i find Dbits? In high speed steel i have a few carbide ones. I also had trouble finding anything at msc when i typed in dbit


----------



## ErichKeane (May 27, 2021)

Brento said:


> Question where could i find Dbits? In high speed steel i have a few carbide ones. I also had trouble finding anything at msc when i typed in dbit


My understanding is you typically just grind your own out of round HSS stock.  There are the Deckel clone D-bit grinders for exactly this purpose.


----------



## Brento (May 27, 2021)

I dont have the money to pick up one of those prob lol. Maybe i should pick up some hss stock idk how much that will be however.


----------



## ErichKeane (May 27, 2021)

Brento said:


> I dont have the money to pick up one of those prob lol. Maybe i should pick up some hss stock idk how much that will be however.


They can be hand-ground as well, but you want the point to be as close to the center as possible. The nice part about a DBit is that they don't walk, they are basically a single point drill bit


----------



## rwm (May 27, 2021)

The concentricity of the shaft will matter as it relates to the index plates. I guess I should shoot to have the shaft dead center on the outboard end of the shifter body. At the nose (inboard) it will not be so important. So I will start drilling from the outboard side.
Robert


----------



## Brento (May 27, 2021)

If i used the D bit i was thinking of using it as a specified hole size instead of boring depending on the size of the hole.


----------



## erikmannie (May 28, 2021)

rwm said:


> 12L14 on the way:
> View attachment 367281
> 
> It occurs to me that some of these parts are probably best done as matched set. For example, Erik is doing the spindle. To get a close tolerance on the spindle nut is going to be hard without measuring the spindle threads over wires and having a go/no go gauge for the nuts. If you are making both parts then matching the threads by trial with the nut is much easier. If there is slight variation in the spindle threads you might want to have matched pairs that stay together.  I suppose if Erik nails every spindle to be identical or we accept a lower class of fit on the nut it could work out. Thoughts?
> ...



I bought 2 different new (different manufacturer) 1-1/2”, 12 tpi nuts on eBay AND a Shars 1-2” screw thread micrometer for this project. These all arrived yesterday.

After I have completed the work, the nuts will fit neither too loosely nor too tightly on all 8 spindles. If not, I will remake the spindle. I’m gonna sneak up on it!

A few years ago, I purchased some eBike axles from Zelena Vozila in Zagreb, Croatia; one of the axles had the the M16 threads too loose (i.e. wobbly) on one side. Come on now; don’t ship out scrap! You have to remake the part in this case.

If for some reasons my 2 sample heavy hex nuts are manufactured significantly different from each other, I will post that development here.

I am going to start work on the spindles this Sunday + Memorial Day. I have 4 lengths of 12L14 on hand now.

Moving forward, I can spend all day every Sunday until these are done. I will make every effort to put in a few hours on Saturday mornings, also. My work weeks are a whopping 67 hours.

BTW one supplier sells these heavy hex nuts for only $3.20 each. Should I spring for 6 more nuts so that everybody receives a nut on their spindle? I don’t mind; just say the word (quickly, lest they sell out). I would think that you guys would want to scrutinize the fit. I know I would!


----------



## Brento (May 28, 2021)

Thats totally up to you. Im sure the nut wouldnt hurt for shipping protection lol.


----------



## erikmannie (May 28, 2021)

Brento said:


> Thats totally up to you. Im sure the nut wouldnt hurt for shipping protection lol.



6 more heavy hex nuts ordered!

Today I also bought 5 more lengths of 12L14, so now I have all of the tools and materials.


----------



## Brento (May 28, 2021)

I have all of my materials. I am cutting the steel parts up into chunks today.


----------



## rwm (May 28, 2021)

I got my part drilled an reamed:




The long mark is the high point of the eccentric. Jeff must have known my SB lathe has 3" travel on the tailstock when he designed this 3.14" part!
Next question: I have been reading about the difficulties for press fitting small dowel pins in blind holes. The tolerances are tight and the air has to go somewhere. Are there any objections to drilling out to  1/8" and using red Loctite?




__





						Dowel Pin basics
					

Newbie question here, let me see if I understand this correctly I am making a jig to hold a part to contour mill with some 1/2" alum tooling plate.  I am going to use .125" dia. dowel pins for alignment so I figure I will drill the holes with a #31 (.120") drill then ream with a .1247" reamer...



					www.practicalmachinist.com
				




Otherwise should I use an oversize pin and a .1250 reamer or a .1250 pin and an undersize reamer? I have none in stock.

I think I am going to have to use my bolt hole calculator to drill the hub. Not sure how to hold this piece yet. It is kind of tall to hold in the mill vise with a V block.

Robert


----------



## erikmannie (May 28, 2021)

rwm said:


> I got my part drilled an reamed:
> 
> View attachment 367464
> 
> ...



Nice chamfers!


----------



## rwm (May 29, 2021)

Erik- I hope you didn't pay $28 in shipping on those nuts?! I hate when eBayers try to make all their margins on shipping.
Robert


----------



## erikmannie (May 29, 2021)

rwm said:


> Erik- I hope you didn't pay $28 in shipping on those nuts?! I hate when eBayers try to make all their margins on shipping.
> Robert



I saw that & I didn’t complain about it. However, the shipper noticed it and he threw $6 cash in the box.


----------



## Shotgun (May 29, 2021)

No pictures yet, but I got my angle plate finished up, and took the first facing cut to clean up the first main base.  It's going to be a lot of work for this RF-30 clone.  After the face cut, I'll square the sides, cut bolt slots, mill the pin slots, drill and tap the alignment block holes,  and bore the lightening holes.  All features of the bottom will be completed before removing from the mill vice.

For boring the main and auxiliary base for the trunnion, I have decided that I'm going to do it on the lathe.  I'll remove the cross-slide and build a mount (plinth?). that the base will bolt down and indicate to.  I'll mount a tool to face the side of the main base, so that it is guaranteed 90 degrees.  I'm making what may be the biggest boring bar that a Craftsman Commercial 12x36 has ever seen.  That bar will be chucked, and the workpiece fed into it.  I may even put an MT3 taper on it so that I don't have to worry about chuck alignment.  I'm making the bar out of some 3" diameter A36.  I had to take about .100" off to clean off the rust and pitting.

Unfortunately, I was forced to travel to Key West for the holiday.  It's so terribly bad.  You guys raise a glass for me, if you would.


----------



## rwm (May 29, 2021)

I have been wondering how you would tackle this. 
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (May 29, 2021)

rwm said:


> I have been wondering how you would tackle this.
> Robert


If the setup is as rigid as I hope it to be, I will be boring the holes for the trunnion crank and spindle lock in the same way.  I'll have to buy hole saws of the correct size; but, then I will just need to bore the holes in the correct positions, and then cut excess material from around them.


----------



## ErichKeane (May 29, 2021)

Ugh... My telescoping bore gauge apparently developed a "set" where tightening it started putting it in the same spot each time. I decided to just order a dial bore gauge and hope I did well enough on the ones so far.


----------



## Brento (May 29, 2021)

I have not gotten far but i did buy a 4x6 bandsaw to help cut the stock up for the project. A abrasive saw wasnt cuttin it.


----------



## ttabbal (May 29, 2021)

My 4x6 is where just about every project starts. It's been well worth getting. I highly recommend it and a quality blade. I've had a Lennox for a while now. It's held up much longer than the blades I have bought locally. 

I hope to get cutting on the trunnion tomorrow.


----------



## extropic (May 30, 2021)

Now I get it!

You guys are fundamentally using the indexer project as an excuse to buy more tools.   

PS: I think it would be fantastic if you guys would publish a list of $$$ spent on tools and stock plus hours spent on the project. IMHO, they would be significant numbers.


----------



## Brento (May 30, 2021)

@extropic


----------



## rwm (May 30, 2021)

extropic said:


> Now I get it!
> 
> You guys are fundamentally using the indexer project as an excuse to buy more tools.
> 
> PS: I think it would be fantastic if you guys would publish a list of $$$ spent on tools and stock plus hours spent on the project. IMHO, they would be significant numbers.


Duh.
I just realized I should probably buy a dividing head to drill the hole pattern in my part.
Robert


----------



## rwm (May 30, 2021)

Lookie here:





__





						Order **Special Buy** 1.875" Bearing Bronze Round Bar 932 (SAE 660) Cast Oversized Online, Diameter: 1.875"
					

Order **special buy** 1.875" bearing bronze round bar 932 (sae 660) cast oversized and other metal-working products online at OnlineMetals.com®, Diameter: 1.875 inch




					www.onlinemetals.com
				




R


----------



## Brento (May 30, 2021)

Whats the normal price? 60% scares me on the normal price lol


----------



## ErichKeane (May 30, 2021)

Brento said:


> Whats the normal price? 60% scares me on the normal price lol


looks like their 'normal' price for 13" (https://www.onlinemetals.com/buy/br...nd-bar-932-(sae-660)-cast-oversized/pid/14172) is 118, and 3 ft is 333, so 2 feet at 132 is a steal!


----------



## rwm (May 30, 2021)

I got this far:




There is one error in this part that I don't think will affect function. When I drilled the hole for the handle I went into the bore for the shaft. I re-reamed it and polished the bore so I think it will work fine. The error was made because the stock I started with was a little undersize which reduced the depth until I hit the bore. This actually made tapping a lot easier so it might be a better plan for the rest?
The handle shaft is 304 SS. The ball is an aluminum one I had from another project. I guess I will turn 7 more like that unless anyone wants black Delrin (acetal)?
Next step is to index and drill the holes on the outboard face. I still need some guidance on the 1/8" dowel pin? Jeff?
I am also open to ideas of order of operations for making the shaft clamp.
Robert

The dowel pin indicated in the drawing has a spec of 0.1251 to 0.1253. I am thinking of a 0.1247 reamer. That is a 4-5 tenths interference.
R


----------



## Flyinfool (May 30, 2021)

0.1247 is the recommended reamer for a 1/8 dowel pin.

When pressing a pin to the bottom of a blind hole I have been known use a Dremel with a thin cut off wheel to put a grove down the side of the dowel pin to let the air out. You can buy vented dowel pins but I am cheap.

As long as the end of the Knob shaft does not protrude thru into the shaft bore and the hole does not leave a burr, going thru is not a problem.


----------



## rwm (May 30, 2021)

All great thoughts. I will forget Loctite and proceed with the correct reamer.
The bore of the shifter appears very smooth so I think we will be fine.
I like your idea about the dowel pin. I may try to score a groove on it in the lathe with a tool held sideways. Won't take much.
Jeff- I may have found an error in the drawing?
#29 (Ø.136) DRILL .88 & TAP #8-32UNC .50 3 HOLES ON Ø1.125 BC
Drilling 0.88 would extend thru the part?
Robert


----------



## erikmannie (May 31, 2021)

I am just now getting in to the shop after an absence of 7 days. I will start on the spindles after I finish this pipe that was already chucked up.


----------



## erikmannie (May 31, 2021)

So now that is done. I will clean the lathe & finally start on the spindles.


----------



## Flyinfool (May 31, 2021)

That was quick.


----------



## ttabbal (May 31, 2021)

Crap... Well, I apparently need to take remedial ruler use. I spent a significant amount of time getting the material cleaned up and adjusting for finish, then realized that I must have measured the one 3" bit I have. The rest of the pile is 2.6ish. 

I might have to drop out, I don't think I can justify the purchase of that much material. A quick look at ebay does not inspire much hope. I'll try a couple of local yards, but prices haven't been great from the local places lately.


----------



## Flyinfool (May 31, 2021)

How much 3 inch stock do you have? Maybe it can be 2 pieces to get by with what you have?


----------



## ErichKeane (May 31, 2021)

New tool day! This looks like a decent enough kit to do what I need out of it. The "nicer" kits don't include the smaller head to go down to 1.4"( or are 8x the price!), so this is what I was able to find.

Hopefully I'll get some shop time in later this week to restart.


----------



## Brento (May 31, 2021)

What brand is the bore gage?  That is a nice kit bud!


----------



## erikmannie (May 31, 2021)

This is how far I got before I needed food:


----------



## ErichKeane (May 31, 2021)

Brento said:


> What brand is the bore gage?  That is a nice kit bud!


Anytime tools, its a 'slightly better than cheapest chinese' quality kit: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N9U9P2C?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details

I figure the really important part here is the dial indicator anyway, so I can buy a good one someday if I use this enough to notice it is a problem.


----------



## Brento (May 31, 2021)

Any good indicator should make that a better set automatically.


----------



## ttabbal (May 31, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> How much 3 inch stock do you have? Maybe it can be 2 pieces to get by with what you have?



Just a 6" piece or so. I thought it was an offcut, but I was wrong. I could swear I measured at least one of the longer pieces, but I must not have.


----------



## extropic (May 31, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> New tool day! This looks like a decent enough kit to do what I need out of it. The "nicer" kits don't include the smaller head to go down to 1.4"( or are 8x the price!), so this is what I was able to find.
> 
> Hopefully I'll get some shop time in later this week to restart.


 For $120, I bet that tool will give you very good value.
The only critical component is the conical tip of the rod that actuates the dial indicator. If that cone is precisely coaxial with the rod and has an excellent surface finish you're golden. It's only a comparator (set to zero at your target dimension).


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 1, 2021)

ttabbal said:


> Just a 6" piece or so. I thought it was an offcut, but I was wrong. I could swear I measured at least one of the longer pieces, but I must not have.



Would you like to switch parts? I think I can get the stock for a reasonable price but it will either be cast iron (cheaper but messy) or 1018 

I have a large round bar I was thinking of doing the index plates from but I’m not sure it’s 5” diameter. Do you have any 5” stock to do those on hand?

I wish I could afford some 4140 or something we could harden 

I may be able to do both parts just depends how busy I am the next few weekends. Let me know what you want to do.


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 1, 2021)

Buddy is getting me some 3” steel round from the scrap yard. Will see what he’s got later today or tomorrow.


----------



## ttabbal (Jun 1, 2021)

Ianagos said:


> Would you like to switch parts? I think I can get the stock for a reasonable price but it will either be cast iron (cheaper but messy) or 1018
> 
> I have a large round bar I was thinking of doing the index plates from but I’m not sure it’s 5” diameter. Do you have any 5” stock to do those on hand?
> 
> ...



Nope, nothing bigger around. I've never needed it. I do your friend can get a good deal on the stock.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 1, 2021)

I was looking at Speedy Metals, I was surprised to see the the cheapest, or should I say "least expensive" Ø3.00 x 48 steel bar was 12L14. It was even significantly less than the 1018 and a much better material to work with. But still not cheap at $167. 
Midwest Steel supply has the Ø3.00 x 48 12L14 for $139.
McMaster and OnLineMetals are both stupid expensive.

A bar this size is about 95 lbs so shipping may be an i$$ue, getting two 24" bars will be about $1 more for the material but can be shipped ground in 2 packages. at $1 per cut it might not be bad to order it in 6" bars. But shipping for near 100 lbs will still not be cheap.

Have you checked with some local places to save the shipping cost? This part is not fussy about alloy so check to see if they have any drops of whatever kind of steel?


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 1, 2021)

These are the 4 places I do the most business with, Speedy has an edge because they are local so no shipping charge and if I call it in it will be ready by the time I can get there to pick it up. dependin on the material needed any one of the 4 might have the best price.


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 1, 2021)

I got the material for the job but shipping may kill it. I got 9 chunks of 3.25” steel 7” long ended up running me about $50


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 1, 2021)

So I finished the boring/1 side facing on all 9 aluminum wheels, plus the brass one. I fortunately had given up just in time on the snap gauges, I was pretty well on for the measurements for the first 3, though the 4th one wasn't reading right. The bore gauge ended up working great!

Last I did was the brass one, it machines pretty easy. Indicated it in, and a quick boring job, and it is done!





Here are all my bore measurements. Target was 1.500 -0 +.002.

#3 I knew was a little oversized. #8 I got caught being too aggressive approaching final dimension, and a spring pass took a large cut.  Brass one is perhaps a touch undersized, but I didn't want to risk it. If it needs honing or something to take the last 1/4 thou, flyingfool will have to figure it out 




Group photo!


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 2, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> So I finished the boring/1 side facing on all 9 aluminum wheels, plus the brass one. I fortunately had given up just in time on the snap gauges, I was pretty well on for the measurements for the first 3, though the 4th one wasn't reading right. The bore gauge ended up working great!
> 
> Last I did was the brass one, it machines pretty easy. Indicated it in, and a quick boring job, and it is done!
> View attachment 367836
> ...



Some bearing retaining compound should solve the eversized bore.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 2, 2021)

I am more worried about the gear teeth than the bore fit. on your fixture for cutting the teeth you may have to put the blanks in order from biggest bore to smallest. That way you can make the pin to fit the biggest bear and then take the pin down in dia to match each gear as you go. If you put a 1.504 gear on a 1.500 shaft it will wobble around during cutting and have an ugly tooth profile. The issue is not retaining it to the Spindle, the set screw will do that almost regardless of the fit. The issue is that the set screw will push it to one side and that will have the gear eccentric to the spindle.

The brass ID will only be an issue if it happens to get paired with an over size spindle. So odds are it will be fine. Or if it bothers you, chuck it up and use some 400 to 800 grit emery to polish it in to size.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 2, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> I am more worried about the gear teeth than the bore fit. on your fixture for cutting the teeth you may have to put the blanks in order from biggest bore to smallest. That way you can make the pin to fit the biggest bear and then take the pin down in dia to match each gear as you go. If you put a 1.504 gear on a 1.500 shaft it will wobble around during cutting and have an ugly tooth profile. The issue is not retaining it to the Spindle, the set screw will do that almost regardless of the fit. The issue is that the set screw will push it to one side and that will have the gear eccentric to the spindle.
> 
> The brass ID will only be an issue if it happens to get paired with an over size spindle. So odds are it will be fine. Or if it bothers you, chuck it up and use some 400 to 800 grit emery to polish it in to size.


That's a good idea with doing those in order! I hadn't thought of that. I have to make a jig 1st for turning OD and I likely have to do the same thing.

One concern I have is the set screw hole actually. I think it doesn't end up being an issue when turning the teeth (since I have to let it free spin to cut the teeth, right? So the set screw can't be there, right?), But is a bit deal when cutting the OD. 

And that concern is: I don't think I can get a tap that can go that deep! At the moment the tapped hole would be more than 1" long, and even on the finished product ends up being (3.6-1.5=2.1 / 2 == 1.05).

Is there an allowable counterbore, or do I have to track down an extra long 10-32 tap?


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 2, 2021)

Back from vacation, I've jumped in head first.  One of the things I've been thinking about is how to make my tooling last.  I'm generating a ridiculous amount of chips, and they can be costly to generate.  I figured the easiest way to make them last is not to use them.  If I cut out holes and such before facing, then I'll generate fewer chips.  I tiny bit more steel dust, but bandsaw blades are cheap compared to end mills.

So, last night and this morning was a bandsaw fiesta.  I got all eight of the Main Base sections parted off.  I only had to cut one completely off the main chunk, as my uncle got all the rest cut before his blade gave out.  Then I got just under 1/2" shaved off the top of each.  Next, I'll cut the bottoms shorter, and then the angle off each side.  The hole, slots, and channels on the bottom will be next, THEN I'll move on to facing the bottom.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 2, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> That's a good idea with doing those in order! I hadn't thought of that. I have to make a jig 1st for turning OD and I likely have to do the same thing.
> 
> One concern I have is the set screw hole actually. I think it doesn't end up being an issue when turning the teeth (since I have to let it free spin to cut the teeth, right? So the set screw can't be there, right?), But is a bit deal when cutting the OD.
> 
> ...


If all else fails, a screw can be made into a tap fairly quickly.  Use a Grade 5 or better, and they've got enough carbon that one that small will harden nicely using a propane torch.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 2, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> If all else fails, a screw can be made into a tap fairly quickly.  Use a Grade 5 or better, and they've got enough carbon that one that small will harden nicely using a propane torch.


Is it going to be an oil-harden?  I think I am going to have to do that. I'm not particularly worried about doing it with the the aluminum (though it might be a 2 flute thanks to the size of the bolt and my cutoff wheels  ), but I'm a touch concerned about the brass...


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 2, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> Is it going to be an oil-harden?  I think I am going to have to do that. I'm not particularly worried about doing it with the the aluminum (though it might be a 2 flute thanks to the size of the bolt and my cutoff wheels  ), but I'm a touch concerned about the brass...


I'd use oil.  The point of oil vs water vs horse dung is how fast it cools the metal.  Cool it fast, and all of the carbides stay in solution.  Cool it slow, and they have time to precipitate out, leaving you with bits of carbide held together by wrought iron.  Maybe a bad analogy, but it works in my head.  A #10 screw is so thin, that anything more than air cooling is going to be almost flash freezing.


----------



## rwm (Jun 2, 2021)

Look at pulley taps. They are extra long. Not expensive on Amazon. You will use it again someday!






						Drill America #10-32 x 6" High Speed Steel Pulley Tap, DWT Series: Threading Taps: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

Drill America #10-32 x 6" High Speed Steel Pulley Tap, DWT Series: Threading Taps: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				




That brass should not be hard to tap even with a cheap tap.

I wonder of you could do some kind of expanding mandrel trick to hold the worm gears while hobbing? Maybe like a shaft collar in reverse? Or what about making a conical holder for the top of the bore?

Robert


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 2, 2021)

rwm said:


> Look at pulley taps. They are extra long. Not expensive on Amazon. You will use it again someday!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I looked at that one actually, but unfortunately it doesn't have a reduced shank according to the comments.  They end up being pretty expensive to get one with a reduced shank, though I might just have to spend the $50 at travers.

The expanding mandrel is not a bad idea... I DO have a taper attachment, so I could perhaps make something like that...

That said, I guess I'm not really envisioning how the gear is supposed to turn on something like that.  I thought I'd have to make a replacement for my tool post to hold the gear in place, plus some sort of extension to make the hob itself clear my spindle.  And then just let it rotate on its own inner bore.  I'd considered using a brass bushing to have it rotate on (which I could make a 'best fit' for each gear I guess) to reduce wear.

Ugh... the hobbing is just pretty intimidating.  I have to figure out what the fixture is actually going to look like at one point.


----------



## rwm (Jun 2, 2021)

I missed that about the tap. Damn, that's useless. 
R


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 2, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> That's a good idea with doing those in order! I hadn't thought of that. I have to make a jig 1st for turning OD and I likely have to do the same thing.
> 
> One concern I have is the set screw hole actually. I think it doesn't end up being an issue when turning the teeth (since I have to let it free spin to cut the teeth, right? So the set screw can't be there, right?), But is a bit deal when cutting the OD.
> 
> ...



Just make a bigger starter hole.








						Group Project:  Dividing Head - Organization and Design
					

Not sure what you mean by a starter cut, but I sorta have an idea?  It is a pretty deep tapped hole as well, and 10-32! Luckily it's aluminum otherwise I'd break half of my tries :)  Also, flyingfool: the driven gear seems to have lost its center hole dimension. It's 1.500, right? I went to look...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 2, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> Just make a bigger starter hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah!  I didn't remember that was allowed.  Ok, great, thanks!


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 2, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> I looked at that one actually, but unfortunately it doesn't have a reduced shank according to the comments.  They end up being pretty expensive to get one with a reduced shank, though I might just have to spend the $50 at travers.
> 
> The expanding mandrel is not a bad idea... I DO have a taper attachment, so I could perhaps make something like that...
> 
> ...



I think you're going to find it rather anticlimatic once you start hobbing, and wonder if you've been measuring firewood with a micrometer.

The one I made was held by bolt through a drilled hole.  The tolerance can be loose, since the hob is going to search out the starter slits you make. (Now, those DO have to be right).  The wear in the fabrication process will be negligable.  You'll only rotate it a couple thousand times at most, and not under that much pressure.  Slather some axle grease on a post that is a wobbly fit, and go for it.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 2, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> I think you're going to find it rather anticlimatic once you start hobbing, and wonder if you've been measuring firewood with a micrometer.
> 
> The one I made was held by bolt through a drilled hole.  The tolerance can be loose, since the hob is going to search out the starter slits you make. (Now, those DO have to be right).  The wear in the fabrication process will be negligable.  You'll only rotate it a couple thousand times at most, and not under that much pressure.  Slather some axle grease on a post that is a wobbly fit, and go for it.


Do you happen to have any pictures of your 'starter slits', or any tips on how to make them?  Do you just put them in a vise on an angle-plate and cut with an endmill or something?  Do you cut near final depth?


----------



## rwm (Jun 2, 2021)

Sigh. Long story short; I scrapped my first part. 
I drilled the hole for the lever handle in the wrong place and it intersects one of the mounts for the index plate. It is not fixable because a hole in the correct place would overlap the incorrect hole. I will have to make a new one. 
Having said that, my plan is to send this to Jeff (or whoever is receiving?) for the QA part since that is the only error, with the understanding that the lever will be correct on the next 8 parts. This will not end up in a finished device. 
I did finish the clamp without an issue. Here are some pics.










Hard to tell in the pic but the lever hole is well above 35 deg from the 3 o'clock position (referenced as 0 deg)

Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 2, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> Do you happen to have any pictures of your 'starter slits', or any tips on how to make them?  Do you just put them in a vise on an angle-plate and cut with an endmill or something?  Do you cut near final depth?



I used a bolt as a mandrel and mounted it in my lathe chuck.  The bull gear on the Craftsman Commercial lathe has 60 dimples and a pin that locks into them.  I used that to index the part every 1.5 holes.  That is, pin in the hole, make a slit, skip one, pin between holes, make a slit, skip one, pin in the hole, make slit, etc, so that I ended up with 40 slits.

To make the slit, clamped a block of wood to my cross slide, such that the top of the wood was flat and at center height.  The height isn't critical, but you want every slit to be the SAME height.  Then I used a cordless oscilating tool to make the slit.  









						RYOBI ONE+ 18V Cordless Multi-Tool (Tool Only) P343B - The Home Depot
					

Expand your RYOBI 18V ONE+ System with the P343B 18V ONE+ Cordless Multi-Tool (Tool Only). The 18V ONE+ Multi-Tool is an innovative and versatile multi-tool that can handle all types of projects. Its adjustable speed dial gives the ability to make cuts into drywall, metal, wood, plastic...



					www.homedepot.com
				




You don't need to go deep.  You don't even need to cut more than the center.  If you see the teeth of the blade disappear in the middle, you've gone plenty deep.  The teeth of the hob just need to find the slits on the first few passes, and five thou will be a big cut at that point.  The hob is both cutting and pushing the blank around, and the slits are really just to help the hob find its place and give it something to push against.  Even with the slits, you may need to help the blank spin on those first few rotations. Gotta make sure the hob teeth find the slits.  60 RPM on the hob will be fast initially. 

Once the hob cut is established, the hob will have no problem finding it's own groove and you can advance to deeper cuts and speed up the spindle.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 2, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> I used a bolt as a mandrel and mounted it in my lathe chuck.  The bull gear on the Craftsman Commercial lathe has 60 dimples and a pin that locks into them.  I used that to index the part every 1.5 holes.  That is, pin in the hole, make a slit, skip one, pin between holes, make a slit, skip one, pin in the hole, make slit, etc, so that I ended up with 40 slits.
> 
> To make the slit, clamped a block of wood to my cross slide, such that the top of the wood was flat and at center height.  The height isn't critical, but you want every slit to be the SAME height.  Then I used a cordless oscilating tool to make the slit.
> 
> ...



Do you have to cut ALL of the teeth, or just a couple to get the initial cut working?

Also, the slits have to go at an angle, right?  What did you calculate as the angle?  I have to use the dividing head/rotary-table anyway, and don't have one of those multi-tools, so I likely will be using a rotary table on the mill with a blade that way, so I think i have to set the angle with a sine bar or something...


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 2, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> Do you have to cut ALL of the teeth, or just a couple to get the initial cut working?


Yes, else the hob will lose its place and not spin the blank.


ErichKeane said:


> Also, the slits have to go at an angle, right?  What did you calculate as the angle?  I have to use the dividing head/rotary-table anyway, and don't have one of those multi-tools, so I likely will be using a rotary table on the mill with a blade that way, so I think i have to set the angle with a sine bar or something...


No. I cut them straight.  The hob will find it and keep things moving.  Keep in mind that the first few times around the blank, the hob cut will be just a dimple. But that dimple is all it needs to push against to keep the blank going.

Another point.  most of the work will be done by just a few of the hob's teeth.  Move the carriage back and forth a little to switch to a sharper tooth.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 2, 2021)

Just spent a few hours in the workshop.  I'm amazed what a 4x6 bandsaw can do.  I just cut about 8ft of 3/4" A36.  Wore out the blade that I got from the Tractor Supply, and broke one of my two new Lenox blades.  They were rather short, so I had to modify the saw a bit to get them on there. But, they cut so much better than what I can find locally.

Good news is that I have one more cut on each, and then I'll have the Main Base roughed out.  Holes are next, and I got most of the way through the construction of my hole saw mandrel.  A couple holes to drill and tap, then a taper to turn, and it'll be ready.


----------



## extropic (Jun 2, 2021)

Observer's $0.02:

Any eccentricity in the gear(s) will result in backash (slop) where the mesh isn't ideal.

The best way, I can think of, to cut the gear is to mount the blank on it's mating (what have you named it?) spindle and rotate the spindle on it's bearing journals. The mating gear/spindle diameters should be matched to the best of your ability and the setscrew engaged during gear tooth machining. The Gear/spindle should then be a matched set.


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 2, 2021)

For the record, I will be working on the spindles at least 8 hours every Sunday until they are done. M-F I can’t do anything. I work 7+ hours on Saturdays, but I will try to do a little bit on Saturdays, too.

I have ALL the tools & materials on hand.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 2, 2021)

extropic said:


> Observers $0.02:
> 
> Any eccentricity in the gear(s) will result in backash (slop) where the mesh isn't ideal.
> 
> The best way, I can think of, to cut the gear is to mount the blank on it's mating (what have you named it?) spindle and rotate the spindle on it's bearing journals. The mating gear/spindle diameters should be matched to the best of your ability and the setscrew engaged during gear tooth machining. The Gear/spindle should then be a matched set.


So I'm not sure I need to be concerned about it actually, and  don't think it causes backlash or anything.  Since the gear blank isn't fixed, any 'play' during the hobbing will be consistently taken up by the pressure of the hob, wouldn't it?  There will be a consistent single-point of contact between the gear blank and the rod that it is attached to, and it should rotate on that, right?


----------



## extropic (Jun 3, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> So I'm not sure I need to be concerned about it actually, and  don't think it causes backlash or anything.  Since the gear blank isn't fixed, any 'play' during the hobbing will be consistently taken up by the pressure of the hob, wouldn't it?  There will be a consistent single-point of contact between the gear blank and the rod that it is attached to, and it should rotate on that, right?



And when that gear is mounted to the spindle, the setscrew will push all clearance to one side of the gear/spindle fit. Thereby creating eccentricty.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 3, 2021)

extropic said:


> And when that gear is mounted to the spindle, the setscrew will push all clearance to one side of the gear/spindle fit. Thereby creating eccentricty.


The gear/spindle fit should be one of the tighter ones that we're working on. Any eccentricity from the set screw will be half the clearance between the gear and the spindle.

As @ErichKeane is hobbing, he is pushing the gear blank against its axle (which happens to be a fixed, vertical shaft).  The blank is freewheeling on the axle.  There is no set screw, yet.  So, as the hob turns, it pulls the blank around, with the inside diameter of the blank rubbing against the shaft.  The hob's DOC is set by the distance between the axle (maybe post is a better word?) and the hob.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 3, 2021)

rwm said:


> Sigh. Long story short; I scrapped my first part.
> I drilled the hole for the lever handle in the wrong place and it intersects one of the mounts for the index plate. It is not fixable because a hole in the correct place would overlap the incorrect hole. I will have to make a new one.
> Having said that, my plan is to send this to Jeff (or whoever is receiving?) for the QA part since that is the only error, with the understanding that the lever will be correct on the next 8 parts. This will not end up in a finished device.
> I did finish the clamp without an issue. Here are some pics.
> ...



All is not lost yet.
How bad are they intersecting?

On the clamp the slot into the other side is still missing. There is nothing magic about the exact depth or width of the slot, It could be done with a saw if your slitting wheel does not reach that deep.

You can try it out on the Housing you have made to see if it will still clamp up tight without it?

As for the eccentricity of the driven gear once the set screw is tightened, Yes tightening the set screw will push it to one side, ASSUMING all parts are in tolerance and you use the worst case tolerance stack up the added backlash from the worst case would add ~0.002° of backlash, or ~0.00015 of linear travel at the pitch Dia. I personally don;t think I can even measure that repeatably.

Ideally the slits should be angled,  The angle needed will be about 7.12°. The angle is not that critical that you need sine blocks, a plastic protractor will be plenty close. Even an eyeball guess and by gosh will be good.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 3, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> be *about *7.12°.



"About" and gives 3 sig-figs


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 3, 2021)

Would you prefer 8 decimal places????


----------



## rwm (Jun 3, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> All is not lost yet.
> How bad are they intersecting?
> 
> On the clamp the slot into the other side is still missing. There is nothing magic about the exact depth or width of the slot, It could be done with a saw if your slitting wheel does not reach that deep.
> ...


The holes intersect less than 50%. I can fix that with silver solder and re-tapping. I was more concerned about the 45 deg angle of the lever.

My slitting saw wound not reach far enough to cut the other side of the clamp. I tested the clamp without the extended slit and it works very well. I have close diameter tolerances; I don't think it will be any issue. I could slit it with the bandsaw but it may not look as pretty.

Robert


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 3, 2021)

Got another hour and a half of shop time and decided to do operation #2 on the gears.  That is, facing them to thickness.

This step was pretty easy. First bit was to indicate it in, which I did mostly for practice. As a minor concern, I wanted to make sure my tool didn't hit the jaws when I reached the points:





Next was measuring for thickness, which was a pain since my micrometers couldn't reach around the outside and my starrett only barely reached through the middle (when wound all the way out!).




Finally, face to size:
	

		
			
		

		
	




First one I did hit .753, so I set an indicator and did the rest to just about that figure! One turned out a little smaller since I had a chip get between it and a jaw, so I had to cut a few thou off. Still was .748, well within tolerances.

Next step is going to be to drill and cut the set screw so I can turn the OD. However, I don't have a great idea how to indicate in the center hole. My only thought is to waste a big piece of aluminum and cut it to 1.5" so I can hit it with the edgefinder, but I'm hoping there is a better way  thoughts?


----------



## rwm (Jun 3, 2021)

Blanks for collars:




Robert


----------



## rwm (Jun 3, 2021)

Feels like a heavy stack of chips in Vegas...
Hey Brino! What parts are you making?
R


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 3, 2021)

OK we have a small change coming.
On the BOM the #8-32 x 3/4 HSFH screws will become #10-32 x 1/2 HSFH screws.
The 3 holes in the shifter housing for mounting the Index plates to the shifter Housing will be opened up to #10-32.
This will also require the 3 mounting holes in the index plates to be drilled and C'sunk for the #10 flat head screws.
I will post the revised drawings as soon as I can get them done.

There has been a major upheaval of things in my house, I have been laid off for a little over a year due to covid eliminating my job and some serious health issues. Well I just accepted a job offer and will now have a lot less time to play.


----------



## rwm (Jun 3, 2021)

Congrats on the job! Is it a machining job? 
R


----------



## brino (Jun 3, 2021)

rwm said:


> Hey Brino! What parts are you making?



Wait. What?
None as far as I know!

I considered trying to contribute to either this or the clamp group project, but decided that shipping costs (on top of the time commitments) would include me out........

However, I am following along at home!

-brino


----------



## Weldingrod1 (Jun 3, 2021)

I've still got two parts with no maker on the clamp build ;-)
That one is a "small flat rate box" kind of build, with only two shipments to pay for...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## brino (Jun 3, 2021)

Weldingrod1 said:


> I've still got two parts with no maker on the clamp build ;-)
> That one is a "small flat rate box" kind of build, with only two shipments to pay for...



If that was directed to me: I don't think "small flat rate box" translates into Canadian..........

-brino


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 3, 2021)

What’s the plan on the trunions?

I did get the material. I think I can make them? Would be about $40 to ship it all to someone else.


----------



## rwm (Jun 3, 2021)

Won't it fit in a USPS flat rate box? Medium?
R


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 3, 2021)

rwm said:


> Would it fit in a USPS flat rate box?
> R



It would fit in 3 medium boxes

It’s 9 chunks of round bar 3.25”x7”


----------



## rwm (Jun 3, 2021)

Two mediums would definitely do it. The medium box is 13-5/8 wide so you could get 4 pieces in there.
I blame Jeff for not designing based on the USPS boxes...
R


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 3, 2021)

14*12*3.5 is the size of the box for a medium. So you could do 2 ish in the 14" dimension. Then 3 wide is 2*3==6 per box, so 2 medium boxes.

Large box is 12*12*6. You could do 2 layers (since there will be some extra area to stack) which might fit all of them.


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 3, 2021)

It’s over 70lbs for sure so it ain’t going on one box


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 4, 2021)

16.xxlbs each só it would take 3 boxes due to weight limit.


----------



## Brento (Jun 4, 2021)

The pass around box i think is in the medium?  If not then the large. They have been pushing that to the max at around 70# with no issues.


----------



## rwm (Jun 4, 2021)

No question that shipping cost are going to be high for this project. Did we decide we are shipping everything to one person for assembly or are we shipping parts to multiple individuals separately? The first set of parts will need to go separately to the QA person (I assume Jeff?) If we are shipping to individuals that would leave 6 additional packages for each of us to ship.
I'm gonna have to ship 20 lbs of brass to Erich and they he will ship all of that back out! Shotgun and I are relatively close. Mableton GA is on the other side of that ATL mess...
If we have one assembler, one option would be to ship all the parts there and then everyone could pay to have their completed device shipped to them (just as if you had ordered a dividing head.) Just a thought, I am comfortable with whatever makes the most sense. I don't want people with heavy parts to get short changed.
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 4, 2021)

rwm said:


> No question that shipping cost are going to be high for this project. Did we decide we are shipping everything to one person for assembly or are we shipping parts to multiple individuals separately? The first set of parts will need to go separately to the QA person (I assume Jeff?) If we are shipping to individuals that would leave 6 additional packages for each of us to ship.
> I'm gonna have to ship 20 lbs of brass to Erich and they he will ship all of that back out! Shotgun and I are relatively close. Mableton GA is on the other side of that ATL mess...
> If we have one assembler, one option would be to ship all the parts there and then everyone could pay to have their completed device shipped to them (just as if you had ordered a dividing head.) Just a thought, I am comfortable with whatever makes the most sense. I don't want people with heavy parts to get short changed.
> Robert


I was comfortable with everyone shipping  me there small parts and putting together kits.  No matter what, I've got all the 3/4" thick stuff, and each head is only going to half fill a box.  Most of you, with @Ianagos being the exception I think, can ship all your parts in one box.  

I say I'll put together a kit, 'cause I figure y'all will want the fun of putting it together the first time.  I know I will. 

@Ianagos , you're just the other side of Atlanta?  @rwm is in Charlotte?  Maybe you go ahead and get the trunnion put together and we can have a meetup in Charlotte.  I have a stepson there that's always wanting us to visit.  BTW, I still need to get a gauge to you.

But, before I can make the guage, I have to finish the holesaw arbor.  I was done with everything last night, except for the MT3 taper.  Copying another tool, I needed to taper from .941" down to .791".  I got my tailstock offset, and made a dead center for the headstock, and turned down to a perfect .941" to .741".  (Look at the numbers close.  Not a typo.  I get a chance to make this one again.)



On much better news,  I got all the rough cutting for the main base done.  I don't know if I'll be forced to attend counselling for bandsaw abuse, though.


----------



## rwm (Jun 4, 2021)

Looking at shipping charges, it make the most sense to ship fewer, but heavier packages. I think it is essential that the first set of parts go to Jeff for inspection. He will end up with one machine that way. Leave that out of the equation for a minute.

If we ship part to individuals, that would be 6 parts x 6 machinists = 36 packages. (although lighter)

Proposal:
If we ship to a distributor, that would be 7 packages to 1 distributor, then 1 package to each of 7 machinists = 14 packages. More efficient. (you could still hold back your own part to make the package lighter)
We could pool the shipping costs. Individuals could report actual charges to the distributor who could then calculate each individual's share.  The total charges would be divided by 8 not 7.
The distributor would not have to assemble the devices but would have to package the kits and ship them.
If you like this proposal give a thumbs up and we will count this as a poll. If you have another proposal, post it and we will see how many thumbs you get. Do not vote in more that one poll! Please do not expect this to be cheap any way we slice it.
We also need to nominate a distributor. I would be willing to do it. If you get any kind of shipping discount through work please step forward.

Robert

EDIT: Some rough math- If the average package is $15 the individual cost would be $27. (15 x 14/ 8)
Robert


----------



## rwm (Jun 4, 2021)

It would be a huge cost saving if the heavy parts from Shotgun and Lanagos made it to Charlotte somehow. My sister lives in Raleigh and could possible bring some.
R


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 4, 2021)

It appears that you and I were typing at the same time, but typing essentially the same thing @rwm.  

We seem to have all the heaviest parts right here on the central east coast.  @Ianagos , would you be ok with meeting up at @rwm's place for a "kitting party"?  @rwm, would you be ok with hosting such a party?


----------



## Brento (Jun 4, 2021)

I am fine with however we slices the pieces. I know my parts will be the lightest so i am getting the best slice of pie in shipping. I agree to divy up shipping costs.


----------



## rwm (Jun 4, 2021)

I am always happy to host! But I don't think that makes much sense for Lanagos. That would be at least an 8-hour drive round trip and the fuel cost would outweigh the shipping costs substantially. Unless of course he's coming near Charlotte for some other reason. Or if I happen to go to Atlanta which is not in my plans yet.
Robert


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 4, 2021)

May go look at a lathe up that way for a buddy soon.

I live on the other side of Atlanta in Snellville now Charlotte is 3 hours out.

I can probably make the drive up that way at some point. Just depends how busy I am. Maybe we can do some trading aswell I got tons of tooling that needs to find a new home.


----------



## Brento (Jun 4, 2021)

Got all of my materials sawed up and ready to go!


----------



## ttabbal (Jun 5, 2021)

Ianagos said:


> What’s the plan on the trunions?
> 
> I did get the material. I think I can make them? Would be about $40 to ship it all to someone else.



Been busy with the day job and haven't checked in till now. If you want to ship it to me I'll still do the work. I'll cover the shipping cost, still far cheaper than I could get it locally.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 5, 2021)

A little more progress today, 10x of the next op: drilling and tapping for the setscrew 

I ended up using a gauge pin held against the jaw and the side of the hole, and indicated against that:
	

		
			
		

		
	




Then I center drilled, counterbored, drilled, and tapped! This aluminum was a pain to tap (the flutes kept getting packed full and so it took 3 runs to get each tapped). I left about .700 of threads, so that should be plenty!




The brass tapped way easier, I didn't even have to break the chip!



Another question: since I need the setscrews for an operation anyway, should I just pick up enough for the whole project? I have to take a trip to Ace anyway.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 5, 2021)

Might as well, they are usually pretty cheap at the hardware store.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 6, 2021)

OK, I finally got caught up and loaded a fresh set of files to the first post.


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 6, 2021)

I turned these 2 diameters down to spec & now I am going to cut some threads.

I am still only working on the first spindle. I am not working on any other projects, but I told you guys that I work really long hours at my day job.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 6, 2021)

Had more shop time! Unfortunately cut short, as you'll read.

I stopped by ace to get our set screws last night and installed all of them. Then I turned an arbor to start with the OD. I started with the largest bore, and made it tight enough it needed a little tap from a mallet to get on. It also uses the set screw on a flat, plus a clamp off the end.




I was able to take .100 DOC passes (fortunately, since otherwise removing 2 inches of diameter would take forever...) Without issue.
	

		
			
		

		
	




I finished my roughing on the first one, and it is down to round! So yay for that. Surface finish is kinda bad, but hey, roughing cut.




It was this point I realized I don't have a 3-4" micrometer! I could use my Fowler 12" calipers but my confidence in them is sorta "meh" (jaws on my 6" B&S aren't long enough to go in straight).

Fortunately I had ordered most of a B&S micrometer set NOS which is shipping Monday anyway! So, just looks like this project is back-burnered until that shows up.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 7, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> Might as well, they are usually pretty cheap at the hardware store.


Likewise for the base, I'm going to pick up the screws, and use some pins I have.

In my case, I have to have the Auxiliary Base indicated and anchored before I bore for the trunnion. The order of operations will be:

1 - complete the bottom features of the Main Base
2 - flip it on its side, and match drill the Auxiliary and Main together for the screws.
3 - Open up the holes on the Auxiliary, bolt it together, then drill and set the pins.

Once I've set the pin, each Main/Auxiliary Base will be a matched set.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 7, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> I am still only working on the first spindle. I am not working on any other projects, but I told you guys that I work really long hours at my day job.



Relax.

Given current progress, I'm going to be the long pole in this project.  I just about have the "boring bar" completed.  Rusty, 3" dia steel of unknown grade took a whole day to clean up and turn an MT3 taper on one end. . . the second time.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 7, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> View attachment 368360
> 
> 
> I was able to take .100 DOC passes (fortunately, since otherwise removing 2 inches of diameter would take forever...) Without issue.


When faced with making square stock round, I'll cut the corners off with the bandsaw to save on chip making and interrupted cutting.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 7, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Relax.
> 
> Given current progress, I'm going to be the long pole in this project.  I just about have the "boring bar" completed.  Rusty, 3" dia steel of unknown grade took a whole day to clean up and turn an MT3 taper on one end. . . the second time.


Yeah, I figure we'll be deep into summer before getting even the 1st 'test' version done, and probably deep into winter before this project is all said and done.




Shotgun said:


> When faced with making square stock round, I'll cut the corners off with the bandsaw to save on chip making and interrupted cutting.



I only have a vertical bandsaw setup, and it doesn't really have a table on it, so workholding for that becomes a pain :/  My wood bandsaw is in storage, otherwise I probably would have used that.

In the long run, it didn't take too long.  It was probably only about 5 mins to turn down what you saw above.  The interrupted cut isn't a problem with the tool I'm using (super round nose, HSS, 3/4" tool) on aluminum.


----------



## rwm (Jun 7, 2021)

For the next revision, put me down for the "lever handle" instead of MMC. I will make these out of stainless and aluminum. Got to get my ball turner set up.
Robert


----------



## Brento (Jun 7, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> I am still only working on the first spindle. I am not working on any other projects, but I told you guys that I work really long hours at my day job.


I havent even start my parts yet i just have the material cut up. Dont have to rush to much.


----------



## rwm (Jun 7, 2021)

I think we should be more focused on quality than time! 
Still, I can't wait to see the first one assembled. I am going to run into stretches when I can get very little done and then other times of more productivity. I think we will all be like that.
Robert


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 7, 2021)

Today was my first day working in over a year, and of course it turned out to be a 10 hour day. Good thing I finished updating all the drawings over the week end.


----------



## rwm (Jun 7, 2021)

We appreciate it!
Robert


----------



## rwm (Jun 7, 2021)

I set up my ball turner and made a 1":
	

		
			
		

		
	




R


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

I got the "boring bar" done yesterday.  Don't really know what else I'd call it.  Put an indicator on it, and I get .020" TIR.

I have serious doubts that I will be able to hit 2.750"+/-.0005.  I am certain that I will be able to get round holes of the exact same repeatable size.  And, I am sure that the alignment between the base parts will be spot on.

I guess at this point, there is nothing to do but cut a test hole and see what I get.

The drawbar I made up from a bolt, an M12 socket head screw, and a piece of scrap cut-off.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

I couldn't stand not knowing.  So, I spent my lunch cutting a test piece.  Clamped a piece of 3/16" scrap plate to my QCTP, engaged the back gear, and set my lead screw to the slowest speed.

Because I had the part cantilevered out from the QCTP, it wanted to twist as it fed into the saw teeth, but I got that corrected about halfway through. I was still able to pick up a clean measurement of 2.560", and the finish on the cut is acceptably smooth.


----------



## rwm (Jun 8, 2021)

That is interesting. I assumed you were going to use a boring head. That would allow you to dial in the exact hole size. If you don't have one you may need to make one as a preliminary project!
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

rwm said:


> That is interesting. I assumed you were going to use a boring head. That would allow you to dial in the exact hole size. If you don't have one you may need to make one as a preliminary project!
> Robert


I have a boring head, but I needed it to be at least 5" long.  My goal was to mount the Auxiliary Base to the Main, bolt them down to the cross slide together, and then bore straight across to guarantee alignment.  At lease as aligned head stock and bed.

Come to think of it, I can still make an adapter to this for my 2" boring head, and then open the hole up the last 15 thou. The adapter shouldn't take more than a hour or two to turn down.  Then, I'd rough cut with the hole saw, and have a single pass to bring it to spec.  

Wow, I guess I'm lucky the saw cut undersize.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 8, 2021)

otherwise, there is always 'line boring', where you put the boring bar between centers, and it has an adjustable piece of HSS sticking out the side of the bar (near the middle).  Then you bolt the part to the cross-slide and bore that way.  I saw it once in a cylinder boring for a model steam engine.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> otherwise, there is always 'line boring', where you put the boring bar between centers, and it has an adjustable piece of HSS sticking out the side of the bar (near the middle).  Then you bolt the part to the cross-slide and bore that way.  I saw it once in a cylinder boring for a model steam engine.



Interesting.  But, would it be possible to "dial in" the proper diameter?


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 8, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Interesting.  But, would it be possible to "dial in" the proper diameter?


The kits I've seen put a screw behind the piece of HSS to advance it: http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/_Tidy__Between_Centres_Boring_Bar.html

This is the build thread I saw of it:


----------



## rwm (Jun 8, 2021)

Line boring is a great idea and might be less work than making the adapter for the boring bar? Still the boring bar might be easier to adjust to hit the number.
Robert


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 8, 2021)

rwm said:


> Line boring is a great idea and might be less work than making the adapter for the boring bar? Still the boring bar might be easier to adjust to hit the number.
> Robert


I still can't envision the intent here that wouldn't end up hitting somewhere, but I trust Shotgun knows what he's doing there


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

Thanks for the video, @ErichKeane

The advantage of the line boring seems to be that you'll have support on both ends to enhance rigidity (?)

I've got a solid 3" of MT3 buried in the headstock, that transitions into just under 2.5" stock.  Do you guys think it can get much more rigid than that?  It would seem to me that a floating support on ball bearings (or a cap nut in my case) would be less rigid.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 8, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Thanks for the video, @ErichKeane
> 
> The advantage of the line boring seems to be that you'll have support on both ends to enhance rigidity (?)
> 
> I've got a solid 3" of MT3 buried in the headstock, that transitions into just under 2.5" stock.  Do you guys think it can get much more rigid than that?  It would seem to me that a floating support on ball bearings (or a cap nut in my case) would be less rigid.


It IS the enhanced rigidity, though the biggest advantage is the length/depth of cut.  It would be insane to try a 1/2" deep drill operation 20" long, but with an appropriate length line-boring setup, thats no big deal.

I don't have a good idea of what you mean by the adapter for the boring head... I just can't visualize what it looks like in a way that you don't have clearance issues.

Also, line boring is cooler than normal boring


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> I still can't envision the intent here that wouldn't end up hitting somewhere, but I trust Shotgun knows what he's doing there


Look back at the last pictures I posted.  The "shank" is smaller that the hole saw, which is the intended size of the hole.  The base is 5" across.  I have about 8" between the tip of the saw teeth to the headstock.  I bolt the base down to my cross slide (1), indicate it square (2), and feed it toward the headstock.  Then I put a large flycutter in and face the side of the base (3).  

1 - I have yet to cut a mounting plate
2 - The bottom will be squared up on the mill before this step
3 - The mounting plate will be indicated in, so the facing operation should make the base square enough that it'll be usable as an angle plate.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> I don't have a good idea of what you mean by the adapter for the boring head... I just can't visualize what it looks like in a way that you don't have clearance issues.


My boring head is threaded.  Something like 7/8"x16, I think.  I'd just need to thread a part that would bolt up the end of the shaft I pictured earlier in place of the hole saw.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 8, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Then I put a large flycutter in and face the side of the base (3).


Ah, I think this is the part I was missing.  A little tough to dial your final dimension in, but would work. I thought you were going to use a boring head, where the 'shank' of the tools are often as wide as the cutter when you get far enough out.  The heads themselves are necessarily 'wider' than the cutter can go out, so I would expect that is the limiting factor...


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> Ah, I think this is the part I was missing.  A little tough to dial your final dimension in, but would work. I thought you were going to use a boring head, where the 'shank' of the tools are often as wide as the cutter when you get far enough out.  The heads themselves are necessarily 'wider' than the cutter can go out, so I would expect that is the limiting factor...


I think the plan now is to do the finish cut with boring head mounted on the shaft I made for the hole saw.   I'll put the boring bar in the hole that comes out the side of the boring head. I have a small (2") boring head, so it'll be able to pass through the rough cut hole, and need less than 1/4" of boring bar sticking out.   I think I'd need to buy a larger lathe or mill to get more rigid.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 8, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> I think the plan now is to do the finish cut with boring head mounted on the shaft I made for the hole saw.   I'll put the boring bar in the hole that comes out the side of the boring head. I have a small (2") boring head, so it'll be able to pass through the rough cut hole, and need less than 1/4" of boring bar sticking out.   I think I'd need to buy a larger lathe or mill to get more rigid.


AHHAH!  That is what I was missing!  I had forgotten boring heads had that out the side functionality.  I see how it could work now.  Thanks for being patient with my brain-farts


----------



## rwm (Jun 8, 2021)

That sounds like a good plan. Just curious why you wouldn't face the side of the base on the mill? 
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 8, 2021)

rwm said:


> That sounds like a good plan. Just curious why you wouldn't face the side of the base on the mill?
> Robert


I have to mount it square and secure on the lathe to drill the trunnion hole.  Putting a tool in the lathe to face the side is trivial at that point.  

On the mill, I'd have to do a second setup, and even if my angle block were top-notch, I don't think I could rig a setup that would be as square and rigid as being bolted to the lathe carriage.


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 8, 2021)

ttabbal said:


> Been busy with the day job and haven't checked in till now. If you want to ship it to me I'll still do the work. I'll cover the shipping cost, still far cheaper than I could get it locally.



Give me a few days. I want to try to make them but I may not have time. 

I have no day job but run a machine shop so sometimes it’s slow and sometimes I can’t even sleep. 

Scheduled to be pretty slow next week but I’m still getting through some things this week. I’ll try to take a better look at the drawings and see if it’s doable with tooling I have on hand.

I also need to find stock for the index plates... 5” round 1/4 thick I may try to make it from plate.


----------



## ttabbal (Jun 9, 2021)

Ianagos said:


> Give me a few days. I want to try to make them but I may not have time.



No problem. Just wanted to offer. If you change your mind let me know.


----------



## rwm (Jun 9, 2021)

I was thinking we should make the index plates and the end caps from plate. I think both of these parts could be under .250 a little after finishing but I will defer to Jeff on that conclusion.
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 9, 2021)

@rwm, I'm going to be in Charlotte for the 4th.  Do you think we could me up to compare notes?


----------



## rwm (Jun 9, 2021)

I am working the entire weekend of the 4th. So excited....
R


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 9, 2021)

Sometimes luck is better than skill.

I was milling the sides of the base of the Main Base.  Just trying to clean up the rough bandsaw cut.  Once I had a clean pass, I stopped to get an accurate measurement before milling to the 6".

It was 6.005", and pretty warm.  Accounting for some shrinkage as it cools, I left that one alone!!


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 10, 2021)

A lot of turning today! I got the blanks all down to diameter! I was able to take some big cuts with the aluminum squares, and the brass worked easy enough.

Next I have to decide how I'm going to cut the "slots" so I can hobb these.  Then, I actually have to just suck it up and hob!


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 11, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> A lot of turning today! I got the blanks all down to diameter! I was able to take some big cuts with the aluminum squares, and the brass worked easy enough.
> 
> Next I have to decide how I'm going to cut the "slots" so I can hobb these.  Then, I actually have to just suck it up and hob!


Also note... I spent a while trying to figure out how to get these mounted to my rotary table so I can cut the hob-guidance-slots in it.  I decided the only way I could think of is to buy a legitimate chuck for it, so I found a cheap $90 front-mount 6" 4 jaw, but it'll take a few weeks to get in.

So at least the gears are going to be a while before I can make any more progress.


EDIT: Also: Do we know how many 'teeth' there are around the outside FlyinFool?  I guess I could count off the PDF, but I wanted to make sure those were correct.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 11, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> EDIT: Also: Do we know how many 'teeth' there are around the outside FlyinFool?  I guess I could count off the PDF, but I wanted to make sure those were correct.



The answer is 40.

Maybe I should have went for 42, but no such luck. There are 40.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 11, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> The answer is 40.
> 
> Maybe I should have went for 42, but no such luck. There are 40.


Ah, great!  In my head the answer was '60', so I'm glad I asked!


----------



## extropic (Jun 11, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> The answer is 40.
> 
> Maybe I should have went for 42, but no such luck. There are 40.



Just curious. Since the conventional ratio for an indexer is 40:1, why would you want 42?

Or, was that dry humor?


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 11, 2021)

extropic said:


> Just curious. Since the conventional ratio for an indexer is 40:1, why would you want 42?
> 
> Or, was that dry humor?


Because, it is the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything.

Ever read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"?  If not, do yourself a favor. . .


----------



## extropic (Jun 11, 2021)




----------



## Shotgun (Jun 12, 2021)

Busy, busy, busy this evening. 

Good news:   I got all the feature for the bottom of the first main base done.





Everything edge is properly broken and deburred.  All the holes tapped.  All told it took about 4 hours starting with the center hole drilled out.  I did drill the lightening hole in the wrong place.  Whups!  I read the plans wrong.  The others will be correct, because I made a drawing of what the DRO will read at the start of each metal removal operation.  This one will be mine. 

The next step will be to drill and tap the holes for the Auxiliary Base, and then bolt up a blank so that I can drill them together.  This will be the setup for that operation.




I removed the compound slide, and sat the piece directly on the cross slide.  I'll need to drill and tap that round puck that the compound slide attaches to.  Then a bolt through a single bar from my clamp kit will be sufficient to hold it in place.

Now, @Flyinfool the measurement for the trunnion center is 3.486" up from the bottom.  With this setup, it will come out at 3.595".  I could slide a 100 thou something under the piece, but that seems like a way to introduce errors.  If the trunnion moved up that much, would anyone ever know?


The bad news:  I think I may have burned out the DC motor controller on my mill.  

I was on the final pass of facing the bottom of the second base when she shut down on me.  She quit earlier because the motor overheated.   These treadmill motors have a thermal protection switch.  Some people bypass them, but this is why I didn't.  The switch cuts the AC going to the controller and shuts everything down.  I put an ice pack on the motor to cool it and after a few minutes kept going, hoping to finish the operation. 

The second time she quit, she sort of slowed down and then just stopped.  The controller looked to be working.  The signal generator that sets the speed, and the mill light that pulls power from the controller were still working.  I'm thinking the MOSFETS overheated.  With some luck, they'll work in the morning.  If not, I'm going to be delayed while I tear down this other treadmill I've got in the shop.

(I was THIS close.)


----------



## Ianagos (Jun 12, 2021)

I’d like to try to knock out these trunions this weekend. What diameter do I need to turn the bosses to?

I can probably hit it within half a thou. Better if the material isn’t too bad. What number should I be looking to hit?


----------



## rwm (Jun 12, 2021)

Shotgun- great work! Sorry to hears about the controller demise. Hey, should we consider skipping the lightening hole to save time and tooling? I little heavier is not a big issue. Should we try to find someone on the forum to surface grind all the bases (bottoms)? That would be slick.
I have been working on the shift clamps. I will post pics.
Robert


----------



## rwm (Jun 12, 2021)

The only issue is lots of tool changes. The part cannot be easily indexed if removed from the vice.




One more clamp to go. 
I don't want to make any more shifter shafts until I see how this all goes together.

Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 12, 2021)

rwm said:


> Shotgun- great work! Sorry to hears about the controller demise. Hey, should we consider skipping the lightening hole to save time and tooling? I little heavier is not a big issue. Should we try to find someone on the forum to surface grind all the bases (bottoms)? That would be slick.
> I have been working on the shift clamps. I will post pics.
> Robert



Good news.  It wasn't the controller.  Just the motor.  I can either spend a few hours making an adapter using the one I have on the shelf (it's 1.75Hp, instead of 1.5Hp), or I can dig the one out of the mill I have taking up floor space.  Either way, I'm not going to be down for long.

@Ianagos I'm aiming for the 2.7500 called out in the plans.  With the hole saw cutting slightly undersize, and then finishing with the boring bar, I should be able to hit it repeatedly.  Once I get the boring bar set, I won't be moving it, so every piece should be exactly the same.

@rwm, I bought a carbide hole saw for the lightening hole.  It should go faster now.  I think the hole is necessary for clearance of the spindle.  If that is wrong, then I'm REAL good at NOT doing things.  

I'd like to have mine ground.  It could be pressed into service as an angle plate then.  I made a narrow angle plate out of this material, grinding it on my mill.  That was painful, and not nice to my mill. 

BTW. . . tool changes?  You should see the array that I used to get the bottom complete.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 12, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Good news.  It wasn't the controller.  Just the motor.  I can either spend a few hours making an adapter using the one I have on the shelf (it's 1.75Hp, instead of 1.5Hp), or I can dig the one out of the mill I have taking up floor space.  Either way, I'm not going to be down for long.
> 
> @Ianagos I'm aiming for the 2.7500 called out in the plans.  With the hole saw cutting slightly undersize, and then finishing with the boring bar, I should be able to hit it repeatedly.  Once I get the boring bar set, I won't be moving it, so every piece should be exactly the same.
> 
> ...


I'm other side of the country, but I have an 6"x18" surface grinder if you wanted it ground.  Shipping might be a bear though.  Additionally/alternatively, I can do a shaper-finish   I haven't got that down as well as ABOM, but I've got pretty good results so far.


----------



## Brento (Jun 12, 2021)

Today i am cleaning out my garage. To get into the process of finishing my garage for a moisture tight zone. I am hoping by next weekend i will have atleast the section in the garage (roughly 10-15ft from the back wall forward) painted so i can finally after 2 years set my machines to their resting place.


----------



## rwm (Jun 12, 2021)

Y'all may notice that some of my counterbores are off center by 5-10 thou. I am not at all sure how that happened? I need to re-check my tram and my zero position. 
This will not at all affect function and will not be easily visible. Nevertheless, I don't like it.

Robert


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 12, 2021)

Used as much time as I had today to do some learning 

Since I'm blocked on the gears for a while, I decided to start on the shaft. The important dimension is a 1" long 1-4 Acme thread, which you saw I ground a tool for.

First, I cut the 1" and cut in my thread relief (to .700 as on the drawing).
	

		
			
		

		
	




Next, I spent a while bluing and lining up my threading tool.
	

		
			
		

		
	




Then, I set to do my scratch pass! Only, it was a bit more than a scratch. AND it was 8TPI. I forgot to set one of my gear levers :/
	

		
			
		

		
	




Unfortunately it ended up being too deep, and cleaning it up left this part too small by about 18 thou.  However, I went ahead to try to cut my first Acme thread as practice.

Overall, it turned out alright!  I tried two mechanisms for finishing the ends, the left is to just file off the partial thread, the right is trying a chamfer tool. Overall, the filing ended up nicest.





Additionally, the threads are a little too tight on the hobbing tool. I cut to the exact ID of the hobbing tool, but I suspect I need to dress the tip of my cutting tool to be a touch wider.

Anyway, good learnings and only ruined 1 part! (Or perhaps none of I can just turn this off and use it as the small side of the shaft).


----------



## rwm (Jun 12, 2021)

Nice work Erich. Do you think support from a center would help at all?
R


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 12, 2021)

rwm said:


> Nice work Erich. Do you think support from a center would help at all?
> R


I did think about tail support and even cut a center, but I didn't end up having any noticable deflection. I cut a few spring passes, and they all seemed about even. 

In exchange I got to start my tool further away in case I missed my half but engagement and therefore could run the lathe a bit faster (as well as minimize stickout!) So I think the exchange was worth it.


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 13, 2021)

I cut the threads on the first spindle. My Mom was hanging out with me the whole time; she had never seen threads cut on a lathe.







Now my Dad is here, and he is going to hang out while I drill a hole through the middle and part it off.


----------



## extropic (Jun 13, 2021)

Those threads look very nice.   

What material are you cutting?


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 13, 2021)

@ErichKeane , did you consider rough cutting the material out with an indexable tool, to save wear on your ground one?

I didn't make any progress.   . . . or did I !?

It turned out that I burned up the motor, and not the controller.  The problem with most of these free treadmills that pop up on Craigslist, tends to be the controllers.  The MOSFETs (big transistor thingy)  are life limited, so it is pretty much planned obsolescense.    Getting a motor replacement is much easier/cheaper than replacing the electronics.

I had a 1.75Hp sitting on the shelf, but I decided to tear into the unit that I have yet to tear apart.  It's a name brand model.  Bowflex.  And, it gifted me with a beautiful 3Hp unit.  I had to spend the day yesterday turning a pully for it.  I had a 1" thick, 3" dia puck left from my uncle's shop press project.  So I pressure turned for the first time.  Here are the new and old, 




I had to modify the mount, but once I got the new motor installed, I was happy that I could barely make out that the motor was even running. I was unhappy that it was running backwards. I opened the control panel back up, swapped the leads, and was in business.  Finished the facing I started Friday night in just a few minutes.   It really is so much smoother.  I think I have a very good chance of burning up some end mills with this new power.  And for some reason, the finish is my best yet.  I think that is because the machine is not getting slowed down when it enters the cut.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 13, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> @ErichKeane , did you consider rough cutting the material out with an indexable tool, to save wear on your ground one?


I didn't consider that, no.... though I've never had luck re-indexing threads before, so I'm a touch scared to 

Cleaning up the grind is pretty easy though I think, so Im not particularly afraid of wearing it out in this case.


----------



## Brento (Jun 13, 2021)

@Shotgun a little off topic for a second but would one of those motors suffice for a belt sander?  Im still looking for a motor.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 13, 2021)

Brento said:


> @Shotgun a little off topic for a second but would one of those motors suffice for a belt sander?  Im still looking for a motor.


They'd be excellent for a belt sander.  Better than for a mill actually.  I wouldn't invest in a $150 controller for that though.  one of the $20, 10KW SCR controllers would work just fine for that application.


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 13, 2021)

extropic said:


> Those threads look very nice.
> 
> What material are you cutting?



12L14. I can actually do a lot better than that, but not when my mother is looking over my shoulder & waiting for the grand finale.

After step drilling up to it, I used a 3/4” (MT3) taper shank drill to drill all the way to the bottom. The drill was barely long enough.


----------



## Brento (Jun 13, 2021)

That looks awesome. Im making headway in my garage with the machines. I also found out my mill has a vfd for the motor!  No belt swapping!


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 13, 2021)

Here is the back end where I had to dial in the 6.125” OAL after my slightly imperfect parting job. I also had to chamfer the inside of the .75” through hole.

This is ready to ship! On to spindle #2.







I will be able to make one spindle per week.


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 13, 2021)

This is as far as I got on the second spindle; I got these two diameters to specifications. 

This spindle has gone very smoothly so far, and I have decided to end this weekend fun/work on a high note.


----------



## rwm (Jun 13, 2021)

That is a very nice surface finish. What insert are you using? Or is it HSS?
Robert


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 13, 2021)

rwm said:


> That is a very nice surface finish. What insert are you using? Or is it HSS?
> Robert



I definitely mix and match HSS & carbide. Honestly, sometimes I just grab whatever is closest to me.

Those 2.000” & 1.500” diameters were done with HSS. I made ten .025” passes for the 1.500”. The feed was like .007”/rev so I was there for a while.


----------



## rwm (Jun 14, 2021)

I'm gonna grind some HSS and see how it goes.
Robert


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 15, 2021)

Spent some time on the shaft today. Ruined another attempt at the worm gear(ended up moving I'm the 3 jaw and chowdered it up).

2nd worm gear is right on book (plus a little wiggle from there, since the hob seems oversized).

Spent some time turning down the .561 diameter, though very much not a fan of the +0/-.002 dimension here as well  took a lot of patience here but ended up right on.









Next I started on the other end. The compounding length dimensions were a little annoying, since the only way to measure was with a 1" dial!

I had to grind a tool for the .062 relief, which took a while 
	

		
			
		

		
	




I ended up spending some time trying to grind an offset thread cutter as well, but I'm not sure I like it... I might have to suck it up and do this thread with a die.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 15, 2021)

Looking good, @ErichKeane .  One of the benefits of this group project that I didn't expect:  You have to make the same part several times, so you get a chance to improve each time.  Usually, the stuff I do is a one off, and I won't do a second unless I REALLY screw it up. 

I got the lightening hole drilled in the second base today.  Placed perfectly, and I cleaned it up with the boring bar.  I bought a carbide hole-saw to cut that hole.  My recommendation on these is to save your money.  I cut through ONE 3/4" plate.  The finish was worse than the Lenox bi-metal hole saw, and half the carbide teeth are gone.

On a better note, I am ecstatic with the 3Hp motor. I was having to be really careful with my speed and feeds so as not to overtax the mill.  Now, I'm just powering right through stuff.  Speed is increasing.


----------



## rwm (Jun 17, 2021)

My first part is now completely finished. I pressed in the dowel pin:







Ready to ship for inspection.
Robert


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 17, 2021)

Looks great from here.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 17, 2021)

Guys, I have to admit that I'm going to be delayed.  I snapped a part in my vice in two.  I have a new 6 incher and a 4" screwless on the way, but it won't be here until Monday week.  I've tried to keep going using some table clamps I have, but the 3rd Main Base is moving all over the place, and may be ruined at this point.

I'm going to get started on the other two parts.  My 3" vice will probably work for those.  Maybe.

[Update]  Nevermind.  Just got a notification that the 6" vice will be here Saturday.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 18, 2021)

@Flyinfool : How important is the length of the 3/8-24 thread?  You have it as .625, and I've got it closer to about .590 on my first piece.  Do I have to toss it over this?


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 18, 2021)

I have a question about material selection.  The 3/4" thick A36 I'm using for the base has a springiness somewhere between Big Red and Double Bubble chewing gum.  This is fine for the base, but now really appropriate for the spindle clamp, where you want it to open back up.

I don't have enough of the material on hand for both the trunnion arm and spindle clamp anyhow.  So, I can buy a more appropriate alloy for the clamp.

But, will the A36 be appropriate for the trunnion crank.  The design is for it to clamp on the trunnion and the worm gear shaft.  My understanding is that clamping the trunnion is a one-and-done affair.  But, do we expect to regularly clamp and release the worm gear shaft?


----------



## rwm (Jun 18, 2021)

I am not trying to rush people by posting my part above. Shotgun-You are not delayed. Take your time and wait for the necessary tooling.
I don't see why A36 would be a problem for that part but I will let Jeff comment. For quick indexing you would release the lock on the shifter (which houses the worm shaft) so that might be fairly often.
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 18, 2021)

rwm said:


> I am not trying to rush people by posting my part above. Shotgun-You are not delayed. Take your time and wait for the necessary tooling.
> I don't see why A36 would be a problem for that part but I will let Jeff comment. For quick indexing you would release the lock on the shifter (which houses the worm shaft) so that might be fairly often.
> Robert



Thank you, Robert.  The parts I've bitten off are fairly simple, but there is a LOT of steel to hog off.  The 3Hp motor has drastically increased my pace.  I was practically racing through a 10thou, full width cut using my 4.5" facemill.  But, it is putting my other tooling to the test.

The problem with the A36 not having any spring is that you'll release the lock on the shifter, and the arm will remain locked.  

I know what I'll do.  I have quite a collection of scrap pieces at this point.  I'll drill a hole then cut a slot to it.  Clamp the drill bit in with a pair of  vice-grips, and then see if it'll release the bit when I remove the vice-grips.  If not, I need different material.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 18, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> I know what I'll do.  I have quite a collection of scrap pieces at this point.  I'll drill a hole then cut a slot to it.  Clamp the drill bit in with a pair of  vice-grips, and then see if it'll release the bit when I remove the vice-grips.  If not, I need different material.



Well, it seems like I'm starting to make a habit of crying wolf.  I ran out to the workshop while my software was building, and ran the test.  For at least three cycles, the material has enough spring to let go.  The bend for our parts will be spread over a much larger area, so I can't see how there'd be a problem.

Nothing to see here.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 18, 2021)

You beat me to it.
The amount of spring needed is only a couple thou at worst case tol stack-up. That is not near far enough to reach plastic deformation of any steel.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 18, 2021)

On the 3/8 thread, that little bit short will not hurt. Ther is just a 1/4 plate and the rest is for a nut.


----------



## rwm (Jun 20, 2021)

I am not entirely sure how people are approaching their parts but my plan is this: Instead of making one part per day, I plan to do one operation per day on all 7 parts. Since a lot of time is in the setup I feel this would be more efficient for my parts. I suppose this would entirely depend on the part in question and the complexity of the tool setup. 

Robert


----------



## Brento (Jun 20, 2021)

I have been so busy working on my garage i have been sidetracked   Tonight i may forgo the painting and maybe start a part or 2. I dont want to keep holding everyone up more due to my garage project


----------



## rwm (Jun 20, 2021)

I think we all expect this to be a long project and we should not rush it. We did not create any kind of timeline when we started this. Can we agree to have the first parts ready to ship by July 15? That's about 3 weeks away. I realize there are still some small parts not spoken for.
Robert


----------



## Brento (Jun 20, 2021)

I dont think we were setting up to ship out one part each for checking. Last i knew we were just making them all and going to assemble. But either way one of each part of my will prob not be ready by then bc i am in the middle of doing my garage to get the mill and lathe going. I cant do some stuff without the mill also due to not having a drill press and i did say that earlier.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

Brento said:


> I dont think we were setting up to ship out one part each for checking. Last i knew we were just making them all and going to assemble. But either way one of each part of my will prob not be ready by then bc i am in the middle of doing my garage to get the mill and lathe going. I cant do some stuff without the mill also due to not having a drill press and i did say that earlier.



I think the overall project will go faster if you get set-up right first, and I still think I'm going to be the long pole.  

My issue is just turning a huge amount of "not dividing head" into chips.*  My technique and setup has been slowly improving, but even still I'm just now finishing up the bottom of the third Main Base.  I did get the material rough cut for the Trunnion Crank, but it is going to have to sit and wait for its turn on the mill. 

I've spent a lot of time in reseting and rearranging to get the entire part within the range of movement of my mill, and then getting it rigid enough to hit the numbers.  Nothing is more frustrating than getting set-up, wonder why the cut isn't progressing or is crooked, and then realizing that the part is moving in the vice.

Which is how I broke my Chinesium vice last week.  I kept cranking down trying to stop the piece from walking all over the place.  Fortunately, I got two new ones in Saturday morning. . . a 6" precision vice, and a 4" screwless.  Turns out that a 6" vice looks silly sitting on a RF-30 clone, taking up nearly the entire table, but the rigidity is awesome.  Combined with the almost silent 3Hp DC motor, the cuts I did yesterday not only came out straight, but the cutting wouldn't have woken a sleeping baby. No vibration or chatter to speak of.

The bucket that I'm keeping scraps and chips in probably weighs 30lbs at this point.

*A famous sculptor (Michael Angelo?) was asked how he did it.  His response was he starts with a image, and cuts away what doesn't belong.


----------



## Brento (Jun 21, 2021)

What 6" did you get i am still looking for a 4"


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

Brento said:


> What 6" did you get i am still looking for a 4"


One of the chinesium Kurt knock-offs from eBay.  









						VEVOR 6" Lock Precision Vise W/ Lock Vice Milling Drilling Machine Clamp Vice  | eBay
					

Suitable for milling, drilling machine, and precision parts finishing. Our clamping vise has a powerful clamping force and can fix workpieces very securely. This enables the stationary and stability of workpieces, so they won’t move even slightly if much force has been applied by the fitter.



					www.ebay.com


----------



## Brento (Jun 21, 2021)

Did you check anything precision wise on it? That isnt a bad price for a 6" i may look at a 4". I have heard good things about https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KP5LH5Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_73EWZVJ3R07RM9ZXKVGP


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 21, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> One of the chinesium Kurt knock-offs from eBay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd be careful with one of those.  I picked up the 4" one for a shaper-vise a while back and thought it was generally pretty garbage.  I suspect that if I spent some time with the surface grinder (which I did, though I was trying to 'thin' it out as well) I could get the bed acceptable, but it is likely going to take a while with a die grinder and time on the mill to get it pulling 'down' well enough.

@Brento: IMO, anything other than the ~$400 models (Orange, Glacern, Kurt) or a 4" screwless-vise are pretty terrible and are likely going to require a bunch of work to make usable.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 21, 2021)

Brento said:


> Did you check anything precision wise on it? That isnt a bad price for a 6" i may look at a 4". I have heard good things about https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KP5LH5Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_73EWZVJ3R07RM9ZXKVGP


I got the 4" "non CNC shape" one at one point.  It was trash.


----------



## Brento (Jun 21, 2021)

I just cant afford a kurt so i am like stuck inna rock and a hard place.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 21, 2021)

Brento said:


> I just cant afford a kurt so i am like stuck inna rock and a hard place.


You can often find craigslist-deals for a somewhat loved Kurt reasonably priced. A buddy of mine picked up 2 6" kurts for $60 (total!).  They need some love, but were cheap!  

That said, you'll likely have trouble with a 4" vise.  The Glacern is the only one I know of that still sells a 4", and it is $400.

For the 'import' vises, LMS has a good comparison: https://littlemachineshop.com/info/vise_compare.php

Note the "Precision Milling Vise" doesn't tick their "Precision" box   Thats because it is one of these chinese imports.  2 members of the forum just went through the lack of precision with these about 2-3 months ago, I think one spent a few weeks scraping his in.

For whatever reason, the chinese "Screwless" vises seem to be way better/more precisely made.  I suspect it is something to do with how easy they are to make/grind. 

The 4" ones are a touch more expensive than the cast ones (https://www.amazon.com/HFS-PRECISION-GRINDING-SCREWLESS-TOOLMAKER/dp/B00NG15O1K), and use is a little tougher (to widen the jaws you need to move the pin in the side), AND are tougher to attach to the table (unless they have the hold-down slots, and even those can get in the way of moving the pin).

That said, the 3" ones are REALLY popular in small-mill land.  Something like this Shars: https://www.amazon.com/SHARS-PRECISION-TOOLMAKERS-VISE-202-1212/dp/B07ZP9353K


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> I'd be careful with one of those.  I picked up the 4" one for a shaper-vise a while back and thought it was generally pretty garbage.


Can we get a definition around "pretty garbage"?  Driving (and paying) for sub-tenths is kinda pointless on a round column mill. 

I did test the face of the jaw, and it was as flat as my indicator could tell, but nothing other than that.  That's much better than the vice I was using, and is all I need right now.  I'll verify the other surfaces before I use them.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

Brento said:


> Did you check anything precision wise on it? That isnt a bad price for a 6" i may look at a 4". I have heard good things about https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KP5LH5Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_73EWZVJ3R07RM9ZXKVGP


A major feature I was looking for was a deeper jaw death.  To mill the bottom of these 6"x6" angles, the only thing I've been able to figure out is to grab one side with the vice, and let the bottom stick up.  Without a good, deep bite, there was just too much flex.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 21, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Can we get a definition around "pretty garbage"?  Driving (and paying) for sub-tenths is kinda pointless on a round column mill.
> 
> I did test the face of the jaw, and it was as flat as my indicator could tell, but nothing other than that.  That's much better than the vice I was using, and is all I need right now.  I'll verify the other surfaces before I use them.


Based on the work I did on the surface grinder, mine was out ~6-7 thou on the bed.  The back of the jaw was out up/down about a thou.  The 'clamping' jaw would lift by a surprising amount.  Additionally, the 'bed' itself wasn't parallel to the bottom just about at all.

That said, I find with Chinese stuff that the 'smaller'/cheaper stuff has more corners cut.  On the 6", the two threads I saw others post about were better on the bed, but only just.  I'll have to see if I can find them.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> The 4" ones are a touch more expensive than the cast ones (https://www.amazon.com/HFS-PRECISION-GRINDING-SCREWLESS-TOOLMAKER/dp/B00NG15O1K), and use is a little tougher (to widen the jaws you need to move the pin in the side), AND are tougher to attach to the table (unless they have the hold-down slots, and even those can get in the way of moving the pin).


I bought one of the 4" screwless, too.  It doesn't have a pin to move.  The ratcheting fixture on the bottom moves from one groove to the next.

Hold-down is an issue.  Just like you said.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 21, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> I bought one of the 4" screwless, too.  It doesn't have a pin to move.  The ratcheting fixture on the bottom moves from one groove to the next.
> 
> Hold-down is an issue.  Just like you said.


Ooh, nice!  I've not seen a ratcheting one yet!  I know a lot of the screwless vises end up having a version available with the hold-down slots in the side, otherwise making some sort of 'bar' to go through as the hold down is pretty popular.  Can you share the link of the one you got?  Maybe we can help him find something similar.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> Ooh, nice!  I've not seen a ratcheting one yet!  I know a lot of the screwless vises end up having a version available with the hold-down slots in the side, otherwise making some sort of 'bar' to go through as the hold down is pretty popular.  Can you share the link of the one you got?  Maybe we can help him find something similar.



I got the last 4".  These are being sold on Amazon, Walmart, and eBay, and it looks like they are all the same seller, shipping out of the same warehouse in New Jersey, as the 6" vice that I also bought.









						VEVOR Screwless Vise, 5" Precision Vise, Sine Vise Parallel Accuracy of .0002", Precision Grinding Vise 2" of Jaw Depth, Mini Vise, Machinist Vise, Mini Toolmakers Vise for Grinder Milling Machine - Walmart.com
					

Free 2-day shipping. Buy VEVOR Screwless Vise, 5" Precision Vise, Sine Vise Parallel Accuracy of .0002", Precision Grinding Vise 2" of Jaw Depth, Mini Vise, Machinist Vise, Mini Toolmakers Vise for Grinder Milling Machine at Walmart.com



					www.walmart.com
				




[Edit]. I haven't used or measured this vice yet.  Just checked it out visually and sat it on the shelf so I could get back to making dividing head parts.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 21, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> I got the last 4".  These are being sold on Amazon, Walmart, and eBay, and it looks like they are all the same seller, shipping out of the same warehouse in New Jersey, as the 6" vice that I also bought.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, well, at least that one has the hold-down slots, so you can use a normal set of hold-downs.  I'm sure someone can come up with some decent compact ones for that.  

I guess I don't know how to tell it is 'ratcheting' then.  The one I've got requires pushing the pin out the hole on the side, then putting it in the new location.  That said, mine is an old sine-vise, so perhaps they are made differently these days.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> I guess I don't know how to tell it is 'ratcheting' then.


The only way to tell was to buy one.  You loosen the big bolt enough, the fitting drops out of the slot, then you can move it to another slot.


----------



## rwm (Jun 21, 2021)

Brento said:


> I dont think we were setting up to ship out one part each for checking. Last i knew we were just making them all and going to assemble. But either way one of each part of my will prob not be ready by then bc i am in the middle of doing my garage to get the mill and lathe going. I cant do some stuff without the mill also due to not having a drill press and i did say that earlier.


Sorry, I assumed you were nearing completion on the garage. You work at your pace and keep us posted! Your shop is looking great by the way. 
I think it is very optimistic to to make 8 sets of parts and assume they are going to work well without any design improvements. I know I would feel better if Jeff put one machine together and was satisfied with it before we all put in the effort of "mass production."  
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

Grabbed a pic of the comical, yet effective, 6" vice.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 21, 2021)

Finished a 2nd shaft today! My die might be cutting too shallow, but I can always go over them again later once I get some nuts to test it out on.

Next to it is the 3 foot-long pieces I am going to try to get 6 more of these shafts out of  fortunately I think I managed to get a single ones time down to about 2 hours, so hopefully doing a pair won't be too much longer. There is a bit of extra order of operations to do, so that will likely be a challenge.

I expect my chuck for my rotary table to show today, but I'm still not quite brave enough to move onto another Op with that part.


----------



## Brento (Jun 21, 2021)

What have people done for hold downs on those vices? Id live with a 3 inch honestly. But what would you use for hold downs?


----------



## ErichKeane (Jun 21, 2021)

Brento said:


> What have people done for hold downs on those vices? Id live with a 3 inch honestly. But what would you use for hold downs?


Check out what LMS sells with theirs: https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3767

If you have the ones with hold-down slots, it's even easier. Making something like this is easy enough: https://www.zoro.com/review?pr_page_id=G9329101&pr_merchant_id=297763&pr_merchant_group_id=48555

Alternatively, you probably want a strap clamp kit anyway, which work perfect with them.


----------



## Brento (Jun 21, 2021)

Yup i just ordered a set. The set i have now is a little to big but i got it for like 10$ a few years ago. Plan to just mill it down to fit for extras. For the side clamps would the step need to be exact height to the base of the table. Or make the step a little shorter to give something to pinch.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

Brento said:


> Yup i just ordered a set. The set i have now is a little to big but i got it for like 10$ a few years ago. Plan to just mill it down to fit for extras. For the side clamps would the step need to be exact height to the base of the table. Or make the step a little shorter to give something to pinch.


I plan to make a couple of the side clamps "any day now".  I'll mill the lip to hold onto the slot, and then a ridge on the opposite bottom.  Sitting square, the ridge will be on the table, the lip on the edge of the slot, and there'll be clearance under the rest.  Probably be best to also provide some vertical clearance next to the vice, so that as it clamps down and leans into the vice, it doesn't push it around.


----------



## rwm (Jun 21, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Grabbed a pic of the comical, yet effective, 6" vice.
> 
> View attachment 369828


That looks very solid. I love the Red theme of your shop!
R


----------



## Brento (Jun 21, 2021)

@Shotgun would love to see them or dimensions when you do them.

@rwm thank you about the shop. I got to some of it again tonight. Hate watching pain dry bc i can only do one thing a night to progress forward. Takes forever lol. The nice thing about my 8 parts is i am basically doing the entire assembly for the indexer so i can easily do all 8 parts and make work. But if something does change then i will do one a piece. My plan is still to do all of each part.


----------



## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

rwm said:


> I love the Red theme of your shop!
> R



Good Lord!  I hadn't thought about it till now.  It almost looks like I planned it that way (I most certainly DID NOT).

. . . then I go and buy a blue vice.  I may have to paint it now.


----------



## Brento (Jun 21, 2021)

Hey to make you feel better i tried to do OSHA Orange epoxy paint for my garage floor. Lets just say even though its my shop the wife said H311 NO!


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 22, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Grabbed a pic of the comical, yet effective, 6" vice.
> 
> View attachment 369828



That doesn’t look comically large to me. I would like to run that setup. My mill vise has come up too small before.

BTW I wasn’t able to get out in the shop at all last weekend due to work & Father’s Day.


----------



## WobblyHand (Jun 22, 2021)

@Brento LMS has a 3" screwless vise "blem".  I bought one of them a while back.  blem 3" screwless vise with slots It is on sale for $85.  My vise had the tiniest of marks on it - only a hobby machinist would notice!  I've done a lot of decent work with it.  I didn't have the cash for a Kurt, like you, so that is what I bought.  The screwless vise is a good value.  It's more fiddly to use, but it is rock solid.  I machined my own hold downs.  If you'd like I can provide you a sketch of them.

My 4 inch Kurt clone that I got with my PM25 is not good at all.  Even after remachining the nut and grinding a half sphere.  I'd like a real Kurt 4" vise, but after using a screwless vise I'm kind of jaded.  There's practically no jaw lift at all.  If you put an indicator on your vise and clamp a piece down, you will be quite astonished at the movement.  My screwless vise had a few tenths of lift on the moveable jaw, which is really, really good.


----------



## Brento (Jun 22, 2021)

Thanks for the heads up. That is a great deal! If you would not mind, please send me a sketch?


----------



## WobblyHand (Jun 23, 2021)

@Brento  Was going to pm you but might as well let anyone see the sketch.

Found my chicken scratchings and decided to put it into CAD.  You probably want to use a radiused end mill for the inside corners.  I used an end mill with 0.020" radius.  (Whatever I could find for cheap on eBay.)  I used 1x1 A36 for the hold downs.  You may need to adjust the thickness of the part of the clamp that goes in the slot, depending on which vise you get.  You want the clamp to tilt downwards towards the vise.  Oh yeah, the forces are quite high when the vise is clamped down.  Put a thin piece of steel sheet metal as a buffer between the round and your table to avoid denting the table.  Ask me how I know 

Here is a pdf of the drawing.  If you can't open it I can post an image or the dxf.  Back to the thread in progress.


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 26, 2021)

Here is the second spindle. I’m about to part it off.


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 26, 2021)

Here is a picture of it being parted off. I put a nut on there so the threads stay safe!


----------



## erikmannie (Jun 26, 2021)

This is what it looks like after I flipped it around and cleaned up the back side.




Edit: After I took this picture, I checked the OAL, and it was a little too long. I need to put it back in there & face it down more.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jun 26, 2021)

Lookin good


----------



## rwm (Jul 2, 2021)

I made all the ball handles.




Robert


----------



## erikmannie (Jul 3, 2021)

Great news! I have all day Sunday & Monday to make spindles #3 and #4. I am looking forward to it.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jul 3, 2021)

I'm hoping to get out into the shop again soon... I tried a bunch yesterday but ended up having to tear down a big part of my lathe gearbox instead!  Apparently a burr has been causing me increasing frustration over time, it was easy enough to file off, but getting to it was a long and arduous process.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 3, 2021)

I decided to tackle the Sector plates.
Here is a first attempt at 3D printing them.
The dimensions as printed are way off so I have to play more with the settings.
Other than them not fitting together they don't look to bad.
They are PETG floro orange because that was the material already loaded in the printer. I may buy a roll of a different color for the final version, Unless you guys like orange. I was thinking maybe black.

That is about 9 hours of printing. I did speed the vid up a LOT for this video.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 3, 2021)

rwm said:


> I made all the ball handles.
> 
> View attachment 370927
> 
> ...


Nice balls...


----------



## Brento (Jul 4, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> Nice balls...


I chuckled haha.

Side note my garage has been moving along great! Tmr should be my last day of painting. With the painting needing to dry and not much going on tomorrow i should be able to get going on some machining as well.


----------



## Brento (Jul 4, 2021)

@WobblyHand i for some reason never got a notification that you answered back. I ended up buying a blemish vice from LMS with 4 hold downs so i should be set. But i have your clamps saved and on file.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 4, 2021)

If the 3D printing will not be adequate for our needs then I will make the parts out of a sheet of black delrin that I have. kicking around.
I will try it again today with some hole compensation turned on.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 4, 2021)

Second try came out much better. The other half is still printing. Fingers crossed.

I recorded this at "only" 8x speed so it came out a bit long. Dern 3D printers are hypnotic to watch......


----------



## rwm (Jul 6, 2021)

I am placing a McMaster order so I am already paying for (excessive?) shipping. Is there anything I should add to the order that we need? Are there any McMaster only items on our list? Those wave springs are quite expensive! Is there a cheaper alternative?
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jul 6, 2021)

rwm said:


> I am placing a McMaster order so I am already paying for (excessive?) shipping. Is there anything I should add to the order that we need? Are there any McMaster only items on our list? Those wave springs are quite expensive! Is there a cheaper alternative?
> Robert


What are they doing other than keeping tension on the crank?  Why couldn't a normal belville washer do the trick?


----------



## rwm (Jul 8, 2021)

Amazon doesn't have the correct size but this is close and cheaper





						Small Parts MW1000-0583-25S Multiwave Washers, Stainless Steel, Inch, 0.73" ID, 1" OD, 0.015" Thick, 95lbs/in Spring Rate, 25lbs Load Capacity (Pack of 5): Flat Springs: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

Small Parts MW1000-0583-25S Multiwave Washers, Stainless Steel, Inch, 0.73" ID, 1" OD, 0.015" Thick, 95lbs/in Spring Rate, 25lbs Load Capacity (Pack of 5): Flat Springs: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				



R


----------



## Shotgun (Jul 8, 2021)

rwm said:


> Amazon doesn't have the correct size but this is close and cheaper
> 
> 
> 
> ...



vs $8.50 for a pack of 10






						Amazon.com: Wave Washers Compression Type Wave Washer Carbon Spring Steel, 3 Waves, Inch, 0.768" ID, 0.992" OD, 0.0118" Thick, 0.098" Compressed Height Wave Washers (Pack of 10 (M19.5) : Industrial & Scientific
					

Buy Wave Washers Compression Type Wave Washer Carbon Spring Steel, 3 Waves, Inch, 0.768" ID, 0.992" OD, 0.0118" Thick, 0.098" Compressed Height Wave Washers (Pack of 10 (M19.5): Wave Washers - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



					www.amazon.com


----------



## rwm (Jul 8, 2021)

How do those individual washers stack up? I was afraid they would get lined up (clocked) and nest into each other. 
Robert


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 8, 2021)

You could do a stack of conical washers, but that will be a PITA every time you change the index plate. Wave washers will spin around and line up. The wave spring is just like a stack of wave washers that have been spot welded. together to keep them from sliding into each other.
The purpose of the spring is to hold the sectors in place while you are turning the crank but yet still be free enough that you can move the sector to the next position.


Hmmmmmmm.........
I wonder if one could take a stack of the wave washers and tack weld them together to make a wave spring.


----------



## rwm (Jul 8, 2021)

I thought about tacking them together with TIG but I think they would lose their temper from the heat. Easier to buy the finished product. Preferably at the lowest price (not from McMaster!)
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Jul 9, 2021)

I think that before you got them tacked together, you'd have wished you paid the money for the expensive spring.

The thing I'm fuzzy on, is that the wave washer has 3 high points and is .018 thick.  The multiwave has the same 3 high points, and is .015 thick.  I'm not seeing the benefit that the multiwave offers in this application.

That being said, the link above to the multiwave is $16 for five, and the single wave is $8 for ten.  So, it isn't going to break the bank either way.


----------



## rwm (Jul 9, 2021)

After some reading: The multiwave is made from a single long piece of material with multiple turns. That way it cannot rotate and nest. It can be made taller. Single wave springs are not designed to be stacked so the height is fixed. You could possibly stack them with a flat washer in between.
In this specific application the shorter spring may be fine. Jeff?
Robert


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 9, 2021)

WHen I dont have a specific load number it is hard to spec a spring. This is one of those feel things. Can't put a number on it. Best option may be to save the spring till last so it can be played with to get the best "feel".


----------



## Shotgun (Jul 11, 2021)

Got the bottom of the last Main Base finished yesterday.  There were a lot of improvements in my process going from the first to the last one.  I did that last one all in one go in about  4.5 hours, getting video as I went.  I'll post that soon enough, but in the meantime:


----------



## Shotgun (Jul 18, 2021)

It's been a good weekend.  After making a vice-stop, I modified the carriage on my Craftsman 12x36 lathe to accept a tie down post, and created a carbide insert holder to mount in the four jaw.  I got through five of the Main Bases.  Indicated in the bottom side along the outside of the slot  to square it up, then faced the outside of the upright side.  It appears that the seat for my compound slide isn't square, so I had to add a shim.

There is no fine feed for the carriage, so I have to mount the Main Base on the carriage and then nudge it into the spinning tool until I hear it scraping.  Lock the carriage, and engage the crossfeed.

The crossfeed was slow, so I also got all of the blanks for the Auxiliarly base cut on the 4x6 bandsaw.


----------



## rwm (Jul 18, 2021)

Very cool! That's a lot of material removal on those large bases.
Robert


----------



## Brento (Jul 18, 2021)

Yea there is no way id be ready to do things that big where i am at right now.


----------



## ErichKeane (Jul 18, 2021)

Thats cool!  Makes me jealous, I would have loved to make those parts on my shaper but alas, the raw materials were super expensive :/

I'm still falling behind on my parts.  I need to make 1 or 2 of the shafts-with-gears on them, plus I need to actually hobb the gears. I'm delayed a little because the rotary-broach project is going surprisingly quickly, so I'm about to be the one delaying everyone!

Additionally, I just got a new mill, but not in place yet.  The old one is all disconnected, so I can't do the cuts on it just yet.  Either way, it'll be a little while before I can get stuff setup again and everything back in place to start working on my parts again.


----------



## Brento (Jul 18, 2021)

No rush from me so take your time


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 25, 2021)

Well I gave up on 3D printing the 2 sector arms. They look nice but the 3D print just can not hold the tolerances needed, and all of the layering will not have the strength or surface finish I want to see.
So I will be making them out of a 12 x 12 sheet of black delrin that I have. This is the layout to get them all onto the sheet. It is already glued to the sheet.
I will first drill the center pilot hole and then rough cut the outline on the bandsaw followed by mounting using the pilot hole and doing all of the outside profile on the rotary table. Once they are all to size then I will set up the angle vice to cut the ramp last.


----------



## rwm (Jul 25, 2021)

I like your plan. What's the thickness of the acetal?
R


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 26, 2021)

It is .250 thick. Black


----------



## Flyinfool (Jul 26, 2021)

This layout gives me the 8 sets I need and material to screw up 2 sets.


----------



## rwm (Aug 2, 2021)

Now that I finished my tailstock die holder:








						Tailstock Threading Die Holder
					

It's about time I got around to making this. After looking over a few designs, I decided to emulate this:    I had a piece of 1" 1144 on the shelf that I thought would make a good MT2 taper shaft. I set my compound against a known good MT2 taper held between centers. Then I cut the taper holding...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				







I am working on the ball handles for the shifter. Hey Jeff; what would be the optimal length for the ball handle from the OD of the shifter to the base of the ball handle?

Robert


----------



## Flyinfool (Aug 2, 2021)

The length is really not at all important from a mechanical standpoint, I think around 2 inches would look nice.


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 7, 2021)

Thanks to my wife, Lena, I finally got all the bases squared up today.  Floor is still covered in a layer of tiny knives.  It took quite a lot of manipulating to get the setup right and rigid enough that I can lay a square on it and get even light through all the way across.

Unfortunately, I am not going to be able to hold the dimension of .720" on the wall thickness.  By the time I get it cleaned up and then square, I'm down to less than .700" on several of the pieces, and I still have the inside face to clean up.  I'll most definitely keep the dimension between the inside faces of the two sides, and the Auxiliary base doesn't need to be cleaned up at all.  I think the only change this is going to necessitate is that the shoulder on the trunnion on the main base side be only .600" thick.  Maybe .575" for good measure.  Not sure how thin we can make it and still have room for the register holes. 

Other than that, the pace should be picking up now.  I've got the tools made, and spent the last week getting the mill dial in much better.  Used the grinding wheel to the table flatter, and trammed it better.  Getting the outside faces square is going to be the hardest part of the whole process, I think.  I have something to register on for all the other cuts.


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 9, 2021)

I got two of the main bases cleaned up on both sides of the vertical part.  One is .644", and the other is .646" thick.   I would have got them all done tonight, but . . . you know. . . honeydew.  I should be able to get all the rest of them to that point tomorrow, and will probably get started on the last cleanup passes on the bottom.  Like I said, it's going fast now because I have clean, square surfaces to register against.  I've even set the down-stop on the mill so that I get them all the same thickness.  It's the first time I've ever used the down-stop, 'cause it is the first time I've ever made 8 of the same thing.


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 10, 2021)

It sucks when you're too clever by half.

I dialed the vice in, then got it and the parallels perfectly clean.  Ran the dial indicator across the top, and it was off by .0005".   I know.  I've got a bit aluminum foil right here.  I'll slide that under the low end, and I'll have it perfectly flat.  I'll be a hero.

Get it set up, and face off one of the Main Base and then take a measurement.  Another ten thou to hit my mark.  Just on a lark, I measured the other side.  Weird.  It was off by .005".  Measured again.  It was still off.  Grabbed another set of calipers.  Still off by .005".  I literally pulled out the micrometer, and, believe it or not,  it didn't change anything, either.  

What followed was a couple hours of trying to determine what was wrong with my mill.  Finally, I just gave up and came inside, when it hit me to try turning the piece around in the vice and face it off in the opposite direction.  I hadn't release the quill lock, so it was in the exact same place.  Took a pass, and it only cut on one side.  The side with the foil.  

Hmm?  It was in tight.  Both parallels were snug.  So, I took the piece out and ran my indicator across the top of the parallels.  It slowly climbed about .005" as I neared the foil side.  Turns out, aluminum foil isn't .0005" like I thought.  Especially when it is crinkled.  And doubled over.  And, it won't correct a low spot when you put it under the high spot.  I guess if you're going to go stupid, there is no point in going halfway.

I thought I was going to face off the rest of the Main Bases tonight.  Instead, I went to class.  I learned to check my setup after the setup is COMPLETE.  And if I make a change to it, check the setup again.


----------



## Ianagos (Aug 10, 2021)

I’ve been messing around with getting the trunions made. Planning on doing it all in one go. Only thing holding me up at the moment is the engraving.

I’m having trouble with getting suitable tools paths but I think I have a way figured out. 

As far as the indexing plates go I need to just drop the money on material seems like it’s going to be somewhat expensive.


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 11, 2021)

Can the plates be made of aluminum?

I just took a batch of old computer hard disks apart.  The platters are perfectly flat.  I mean they have to just about need to be pried from a surface plate.  They'd make perfect indexing plates if enough could be had.


----------



## rwm (Aug 11, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Can the plates be made of aluminum?
> 
> I just took a batch of old computer hard disks apart.  The platters are perfectly flat.  I mean they have to just about need to be pried from a surface plate.  They'd make perfect indexing plates if enough could be had.


What are HD discs made of?
Robert


----------



## ErichKeane (Aug 11, 2021)

rwm said:


> What are HD discs made of?
> Robert


They are typically aluminum, ceramic, or glass coated in an absurdly thin magnetic plating.


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 11, 2021)

The ones I have are 3.5" and are made of aluminum.  I only have about 10 of them, though.


----------



## rwm (Aug 11, 2021)

Diameter of the index plates is 5.0". There is a guy on eBay who sells 5" discs. I will ask him about a volume discount.
Robert


----------



## Ianagos (Aug 11, 2021)

rwm said:


> Diameter of the index plates is 5.0". There is a guy on eBay who sells 5" discs. I will ask him about a volume discount.
> Robert



If they have a 1/2 thick plate that would be easier for me to get it nice and flat.

I can hold on to just a little and face then clean up the outside then flip it and face away the excess to get a nice looking plate and then drill the holes


----------



## rwm (Aug 11, 2021)

I think he has 5/16 but more $. Could we use 1/4" if a target thickness of .230 was acceptable? And it would probably be 4.950" diameter.
R


----------



## Ianagos (Aug 11, 2021)

rwm said:


> I think he has 5/16 but more $. Could we use 1/4" if a target thickness of .230 was acceptable? And it would probably be 4.950" diameter.
> R



If the plate is saw cut from round I highly doubt it will clean up with .010” per side. If it’s from plate maybe.

Just I have to be careful to not distort the plate while trying to hold on to it. Pretty difficult actually.

I do a lot of high tolerance work typically holding .0005” or better. You would be surprised how much stuff moves while machining and from clamping pressure.


----------



## rwm (Aug 12, 2021)

It is laser cut from plate. I think we could go down to .200 on thickness if we had to but I don't think we will. The flatness tolerance on these parts is pretty loose. 
R


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 12, 2021)

Do they even need to be that thick?  All they have to do is provide a pin hole to stop a handle from rotating until the spindle is locked.  There is almost zero pressure against the side of the disk, and even .100" is overkill for the sheer strength needed to handle that.  If the disk were to flex away from the pin, I doubt that there is a device that could measure the affect on the spindle rotation.

Are we solving a problem by spending money on thicker material and then holding micron tolerances on the thickness?  (vs the pinhole placement.  That definitely needs tight tolerances.)


----------



## Ianagos (Aug 12, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Do they even need to be that thick? All they have to do is provide a pin hole to stop a handle from rotating until the spindle is locked. There is almost zero pressure against the side of the disk, and even .100" is overkill for the sheer strength needed to handle that. If the disk were to flex away from the pin, I doubt that there is a device that could measure the affect on the spindle rotation.
> 
> Are we solving a problem by spending money on thicker material and then holding micron tolerances on the thickness? (vs the pinhole placement. That definitely needs tight tolerances.)



Just the thinner they are the more difficult they become to
Machine in the first place

I think I found material for a decent price


----------



## ErichKeane (Aug 12, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Do they even need to be that thick?  All they have to do is provide a pin hole to stop a handle from rotating until the spindle is locked.  There is almost zero pressure against the side of the disk, and even .100" is overkill for the sheer strength needed to handle that.  If the disk were to flex away from the pin, I doubt that there is a device that could measure the affect on the spindle rotation.
> 
> Are we solving a problem by spending money on thicker material and then holding micron tolerances on the thickness?  (vs the pinhole placement.  That definitely needs tight tolerances.)


Yeah, the ones I have on my grizzly dividing head aren't nearly that thick.  If I were to make these, I would probably do:

1- Hold in lathe chuck, face off and do the drilling-features in the middle.
2- Attach to an arbor centered on the center-feature made in #1.  Turn the OD, face the other side.
3- Use a super-glue arbor of some sort to hold it down for drilling/marking.  Alternatively, use the same center-feature to hold it down on a pallet of some sort.


----------



## Janderso (Aug 12, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> Finished a 2nd shaft today! My die might be cutting too shallow, but I can always go over them again later once I get some nuts to test it out on.
> 
> Next to it is the 3 foot-long pieces I am going to try to get 6 more of these shafts out of  fortunately I think I managed to get a single ones time down to about 2 hours, so hopefully doing a pair won't be too much longer. There is a bit of extra order of operations to do, so that will likely be a challenge.
> 
> I expect my chuck for my rotary table to show today, but I'm still not quite brave enough to move onto another Op with that part.


Erich, "Making scrap at ludicrous speed"?????
Maybe years ago, it seems you know what you are doing.
Beautiful work sir!!


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 14, 2021)

I'm very happy about this picture.  Got up early to beat the 105 degree heat index, and got all the insides faced off.  At first, I was trying to face them all off at the exact same thickness.  Just so that they would all be consistent.  Then I got to thinking that the only thing I was doing was dulling tooling and making the part weaker.  So, I just faced them off to clean them up.  That went MUCH faster.  The next steps are to:

1) drill and tap the bottoms for the screws to attach the auxiliary base.
2) bolt the parts together, then drill and ream for the location pins
3) after making a spacer to hold the tops rigid, line bore them on the lathe.


----------



## Flyinfool (Aug 14, 2021)

On the index plates. the only thing critical is the hole locations. OD and thickness are not critical at all. I went with that thickness because the one I had access to was that thick.. the thinner you get the harder to control it for machining.


----------



## rwm (Aug 15, 2021)

The eBay seller got back to me and he will not give a discount since steel prices are going up. I guess Covid was a bad time to start this?! He wants $4 per disc for 1/4 x 5" plus shipping. That sounds like a lot. I have one other resource to check but no promises.
Robert

Sorry Ianagos. I did not see your comment above that you had found material. That's great!
Robert


----------



## erikmannie (Aug 15, 2021)

When should I plan on having the spindles finished? I was trying to be all done on Labor Day weekend, but I rested on half of the (spindle) work days that I had scheduled.

If I get to a point where I’m holding up the whole group, then it is no problem to take a couple of days off of work and finish the spindles.


----------



## ErichKeane (Aug 15, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> When should I plan on having the spindles finished? I was trying to be all done on Labor Day weekend, but I rested on half of the (spindle) work days that I had scheduled.
> 
> If I get to a point where I’m holding up the whole group, then it is no problem to take a couple of days off of work and finish the spindles.


I don't think you are holding up the group  I still have a ton of work on my 2 parts, but other projects keep getting in the way.


----------



## erikmannie (Aug 15, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> I don't think you are holding up the group  I still have a ton of work on my 2 parts, but other projects keep getting in the way.



I would like to avoid taking days off of work. I think that I can have all these done by the end of September.


----------



## Flyinfool (Aug 15, 2021)

We are a long way from any one person holding things up, there are still a number of parts not spoken for so they have not even been started yet.


----------



## rwm (Aug 15, 2021)

On the BOM, you can change #36 to RWM. I hope mine will be nicer than the McMaster item. I can pick up some other tasks later.
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 15, 2021)

erikmannie said:


> When should I plan on having the spindles finished? I was trying to be all done on Labor Day weekend, but I rested on half of the (spindle) work days that I had scheduled.
> 
> If I get to a point where I’m holding up the whole group, then it is no problem to take a couple of days off of work and finish the spindles.


You see where I'm at on the bases.  I still have the spindle locks and crank arms.  All I've done toward those ends is clean up the metal for the crank arms.


----------



## rwm (Aug 17, 2021)

304 SS. Will be polished.
R


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 17, 2021)

Just checking, but I see six.  Eight is still the number.  Right?


----------



## ErichKeane (Aug 17, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Just checking, but I see six.  Eight is still the number.  Right?


8? I thought it was 7?


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 17, 2021)

ErichKeane said:


> 8? I thought it was 7?


7 others.  Plus, one for yourself.


----------



## ErichKeane (Aug 17, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> 7 others.  Plus, one for yourself.


Ah, I see!  I think I have enough materials on hand, but we'll see when I get back to getting shop time again.


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 17, 2021)

And, then disaster struck.

I thought that I was leaving about 100 thou on the bottom to clean up before putting in the screw holes to join the halves of the base.  I was wrong.  I measured the 4.73 dimension from the outside, instead of from the inside.  Every single one is 1/2" too narrow.

I really screwed it up this time.


----------



## rwm (Aug 17, 2021)

I have 2 others already done.
R


----------



## Flyinfool (Aug 17, 2021)

BOM is changed and new one is posted.



Shotgun said:


> And, then disaster struck.
> 
> I thought that I was leaving about 100 thou on the bottom to clean up before putting in the screw holes to join the halves of the base.  I was wrong.  I measured the 4.73 dimension from the outside, instead of from the inside.  Every single one is 1/2" too narrow.
> 
> I really screwed it up this time.



OUCH!!!

My first thought is to make a spacer that is pinned and screwed (2 each) to the base and then have the screws for the side piece go all the way thru to the base If you do it right no one will notice, much.


----------



## ErichKeane (Aug 18, 2021)

SO, I finally got a chance to work an hour or two on my parts!  I have 4 of the DH013 complete, and 1 that needs parting + a minor feature put on it (Due to how the material works, I have to build them in pairs, and can't part them off until I have both ready to part).  I also have an un-touched bar, so I have the material to make 8!

I started by getting the 'worm gear' part set up and worm threads cut, but then my cross-slide decided to misbehave!  SO, that was all I could get done today :/ 

I pulled apart my cross slide, and found the problem pretty quickly: The brass 'button' under one of the set-screws for my thread-stop had 'mushroomed' in the hole and jammed everything up!  A little bit of work with a pick was all it took to free stuff up, but it made my 'most important' project of the moment obviously to make new brass buttons!  There are 3 in the cross-slide/threading stop mechanism, so I spent the rest of my time re-making those 3.

Looks like I'll have to get back to this again this weekend!


----------



## Shotgun (Aug 18, 2021)

I've decided that I'm going to fix my screw up by making new parts, instead of trying to hack something together.  It's not a complete loss, because:
- I learned enough making the first 8 that the second set should go a lot faster.  
- my equipment is in better shape and has been upgraded, so things will go faster still.
- the squared up metal can be used to make the spindle locks, which gets me further ahead on that front.

I need to buy my uncle a blade for his saw, and I should be able to head over and get material over the weekend.


----------



## erikmannie (Aug 29, 2021)

I have finished everything on the 8 spindles except the flat spot where the set screw rests. I need to buy a .375” end mill for that. All the lathe work is done!

I just have to clean them up before I post a picture. The shop is a mess.


----------



## Shotgun (Sep 4, 2021)

Ian sent me a facemill and some inserts.  I got an arbor built for it (https://rumble.com/vm2at3-mt3-facemill-arbor-on-atlas-lathe.html ), and now I have the blanks for all the spindle clamps cut to dimension.


----------



## erikmannie (Sep 4, 2021)

I am out of town now, but next weekend I will upload a picture of the 8 spindles that are almost done.

I will be milling the set screw slots on the spindles on Oct. 3.


----------



## Shotgun (Sep 4, 2021)

At the end of the video that I linked above, that "part" that I'm facing is 8 spindle clamps ganged together in the vice.


----------



## ErichKeane (Sep 7, 2021)

Knocked out my last 3 acme threads this morning. 2nd of the day went poorly and got a nasty gouge out of one. Guess that one is mine 
A little too hot to work more today, but the center sections were reasonably quick on the other two bars.  Hopefully they will go quick enough that I can move onto the gears soon.

Thinking I might do the gears hobbing on the mill, it solves one concern I have plus means I don't have to make up any more jigs.


----------



## rwm (Sep 7, 2021)

Those look great! Weather is getting cool enough to cast more gear blanks...
Robert


----------



## Flyinfool (Sep 10, 2021)

Well I have the first piece of the sectors almost done. I just have to bore the ID to size and cut the slope on the arm. Working on the setup for the sloped part and to hold it to bore the ID.
Then I get to start over on the other part and see if they fit together.

But at least it kind of looks like the drawing.

Then I get to shift gears and figure out how to make the sheet metal clamp piece.


----------



## erikmannie (Sep 23, 2021)

I just bought the 1/8” end mill to mill the slot in the spindles.




I will upload a picture right now of the almost finished spindles.


----------



## erikmannie (Sep 23, 2021)

I am going to finish these on Sun., 10/3.

The only problem with these is that *one* spindle has tight threads. I will keep that one for myself.


----------



## erikmannie (Sep 23, 2021)

One more picture.

Along the way, I biffed 4 spindles, so a 67% success rate.


----------



## Brento (Sep 23, 2021)

They look great. I should be getting back into doing some of my parts very soon. Life has gotten in the way so much that ive been doing more important things first to even get to doing more of our parts.


----------



## erikmannie (Sep 23, 2021)

Brento said:


> They look great. I should be getting back into doing some of my parts very soon. Life has gotten in the way so much that ive been doing more important things first to even get to doing more of our parts.



I am glad that I knocked those out before things took off at work. I guess I knew what was coming.

Nobody needs to feel stress to finish on my account. I am never in a hurry: not with those spindles, not at work, and not ever.


----------



## rwm (Sep 23, 2021)

Those are really beautiful. That's some work to be proud of.
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Sep 23, 2021)

Those look beautiful.  Puts my work to shame.

I'm putting the lasts feature on the spindle locks, the clamp screw hole.  I think I'm going to have to redo a couple.  Especially seeing what the competition looks like.  

BTW, I deviated from the plans.  They call for triangular cutoffs from above and below the screws.  I made a turn table(?) from a crap chinesium vice (video to come), and milled an outside radius to that there is a constant thickness section about an inch long.  This will spread the bending necessary for the clamp action to be spread out across a larger area.  The triangular cutout would force the bending to all be in one spot.


----------



## Shotgun (Sep 23, 2021)

I got the video done.  The spindle clamps are right at the start.  Like I said, just need to finish out with the clamp bolts.









						Turn a cheap angle vice into a turn table
					

I repurpose a broken angle vice into a table to turn an outside radius on parts.




					rumble.com


----------



## Flyinfool (Sep 23, 2021)

Looking good.
I like seeing people understand the design and get creative with things.


----------



## Shotgun (Sep 29, 2021)

Just got to bake them at 400* for a while and then dunk them in motor oil, and the spindle clamps are functional.  

There are a few oopsies.  I relieved the wrong side for the indexing pin socket on the one on top right.  And the one on top left, the mill got away from me when I was putting on the outside radius.  A couple have one corner relieved.  That came from re-purposing the main base sections I screwed up.

I'll now set about making the Crank Arm, I think it is called.


----------



## Flyinfool (Sep 29, 2021)

They all look great from here.


----------



## erikmannie (Oct 1, 2021)

I am going to finish the spindles this Sunday. I will post plenty of pictures.


----------



## erikmannie (Oct 3, 2021)

Here is an overload of pictures from today’s work.

It took me 3 hours just to clean the garage and figure out the work holding. My machinist’s jack was too tall for this job.

I had a friend over who was working on bicycles, and that was a bit of a distraction. At one point, I was talking to him and crashed my edge finder into the work piece; this ruined the edge finder. It is hard for me to work and talk at the same time.

I won’t continue work until I receive the new edge finder that I just ordered. In the future, I’m going to have an extra edge finder on hand.


----------



## erikmannie (Oct 8, 2021)

My new Mitutoyo Edge Finder arrived. I will mill the rest of the slots a week from this Sunday. I.e., 10/17.

I’m going to buy a spare Edge Finder right now so I don’t get hung up again. That is definitely one item where you want to have a spare.

Edit: 
Here it is; it was $16.33 delivered:


----------



## ErichKeane (Oct 13, 2021)

So I managed to ruin another wheel attempting to hobb it.  I think this is just something I'm not going to be able to do.  Is there someone I can just send the wheels to who has experience doing them?  I've got the wheels themselves done except for the hobbing.


----------



## Winegrower (Oct 13, 2021)

Erikmannie, that is a clever use of mill clamps to support your spindles.    I have to remember that.


----------



## Ianagos (Oct 13, 2021)

I’ve been trying to get good results for the engraving of the trunions. So far it’s looking decent im trying to do this with a 1/32 ball endmill. This is just on some scrap material 

I only have one extra part so I really don’t want to screw them up.







Wish I knew how or had time but I do know my machine can be setup for Hobbing but I have no clue how not the time to sort it at the moment honestly 


For the dividing plates I have the material on hand but I actually wanted to heat treat it to get it a bit harder. It is 4340 steel plate.


Also been learning to cylindrical grind and even learned how to case harden parts with great results.


----------



## Flyinfool (Oct 13, 2021)

I can not help with suggestions for the hobbing as I have never tried this method.

That engraving looks good to me. A whole lot better than I could do.
The plates do not need to be hardened, The pin going into the holes is brass so it would take a LOT of use to wear the holes at all. The pin is the sacrificial member.

Well all I can do for a while is moral support. I am in for more surgery tomorrow. so no shop time for me for a while.


----------



## Brento (Oct 13, 2021)

Get well soon. I have been slacking on my parts. Been doing alot of quality of life projects in my shop as well as just getting this job to do. But it is at the top of my list!


----------



## Shotgun (Oct 14, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> Well all I can do for a while is moral support. I am in for more surgery tomorrow. so no shop time for me for a while.


"Liking" this post doesn't seem quite appropriate, but I'm rooting for ya'.


----------



## Flyinfool (Oct 14, 2021)

I am home and OK already. The good hospital drugs are wearing off and I am now in OUCH mode. I feel a nap coming on....

Thanks for the well wishes......zzzzzzz


----------



## rwm (Nov 10, 2021)

I hope you are all recovered Flyinfool?!
Are we still making progress on this this build?
Robert


----------



## Shotgun (Nov 11, 2021)

I got sidetracked with a honeydew that looks a lot like an RV.  But, I should be back on track momentarily.  I was making good progress towards the trunnion crank arm before that.


----------



## Flyinfool (Nov 11, 2021)

I am getting close. In the middle of my recovery I managed to get Covid, kicked my butt. So I just got the stitches out a couple of days ago. Hoping to wander down to the basement soon.


----------



## erikmannie (Nov 12, 2021)

rwm said:


> …Are we still making progress on this this build?
> Robert



I am finishing up the spindles either on Thanksgiving or the Sunday after that.


----------



## rwm (Nov 12, 2021)

Flyinfool said:


> I am getting close. In the middle of my recovery I managed to get Covid, kicked my butt. So I just got the stitches out a couple of days ago. Hoping to wander down to the basement soon.


Holy cow! Well at least you can forget about Covid for a while. 
Robert


----------



## Flyinfool (Dec 4, 2021)

Still dealing with some after effects from covid, Doc said my lungs were damaged but will fully heal in time. There may also be some heart damage that is also expected to heal. The surgery is pretty well all healed up. My physical stamina is all but gone, I have to take a lot of breaks if I am doing any thing physical. Fortunately my job is sitting at a desk beating the heck out of a CAD computer all day.

Well I made some progress even if it was only in my head.
The angled surface on the 2 sectors (010 & 012) turned out to be much harder than I thought.
My original intent was to just put them in an angle vice set for 30° and cut them down.
The problem comes in that the thin edge is only .040 thick, that is not a lot of material to hang on to, AND then the cutter would be running into the vice jaws. I thought about making up some aluminum soft jaws but then I am still trying to hold onto a .040 edge after the first piece cuts the clearances into the jaws.

SOOOoooo........
After a LOT of pondering I came up with the idea of 3D printing a custom fixture to hold the part at the correct angle with the part being clamped down securely with a plate.
I made the depth of the holder .005 less than the thickness of the part so that it will stick up enough to be sure it is clamped down good. I even designed the run out for the cutter into the 3D part so that when the cutter does run off the part it is not compromising the wall thickness of the holder. I added the 6 thru holes to make some internal structure to resist crushing in the mill vice.
The bevel on the clamp will magically appear as I make the first part. I will then just lightly deburr the knife edge so it will not curl or snag the cutter on subsequent parts.
This part will take about 20 hours to print. Then I have to find a chunk of 1/8 thick material to make the clamp out of and order the thread inserts from McMaster.
After all this I bet it will not take 30 seconds to make the actual cut. HA! 4 months of setup for a 30 second cut.......
Fortunately my mill is big enough that I do not have to take down the rotary table setup that was used to cut the profile of the part. I can have both of these setups and still have room at the other end of the table for the odd job that comes along in between.

I have no clue if this will work, This is my very first venture into 3D printing a work holding fixture. I may turn into a learning experience. I have no clue as to the proper design of the 3D printed fixture to get proper strength. At least the sectors are soft plastic and it is not a very deep cut and I have a brand new very sharp end mill so the forces on the fixture should be low.

Then I get to start all over  to make the mating part, It will need a new 3D fixture and clamp (It might just be a mirror image) of its own.

Go ahead, rotate and zoom that JPEG, I dare ya.....


----------



## Flyinfool (Dec 4, 2021)

Arggggggg.........
The stepper motor for the extruder is not working.

Still not sure exactly where the issue is.

Apart everything tests good, put it together and no drive.........

DID I EVER MENTION I *HATE INTERMITTENT* PROBLEMS....


----------



## Flyinfool (Dec 4, 2021)

After 2 hours of dinking around, I am pretty sure I have it figured out, it is a bad stepper motor. I played musical parts from the drivers to the cables to the steppers and every time it was the one motor that did not work. At least it is not an expensive motor being a NEMA 17. New one is on order. 
I am going to disassemble this one to see just what makes it tick, If I can fix it I will have a spare for next time.


----------



## rwm (Dec 5, 2021)

After 2 hours of drinking I don't think I could figure anything out.
Edit: Ohh. Dinking. My bad


----------



## Flyinfool (Dec 12, 2021)

Well the 3D printer has more issues than I thought. somehow the bad stepper also took out that channel of the  Controller board. There is another unused channel on the board to I am in the process of trying to move the dead channel over to the unused one.  IF I can get that to work then I am good to go otherwise I will have to get a new controller board. And of course if it must be replaced it will just have to be a better one with more features.   Like ability to have multiple extruders and independent dual Z drive and control of a small spindle and/or laser head and/or????........


----------



## erikmannie (Dec 12, 2021)

I am milling slots on the spindles today! I was a lazy bones last time I had an opportunity.


----------



## Flyinfool (Jan 30, 2022)

*KA BOOM.*

Dassalt Systems, the makers of SolidWorks just pulled the plug on me and a LOT of others.
I was using the free Student version that was a benefit of EAA. Solid works just changed from a free stand alone to a very stripped down cloud based with all functionality removed. All ability to save a file to anywhere but your user account has been removed. This means no draw the part and then 3D print it or send files to your CNC software. AND for this wonderful new system it is now an additional $50 per year and all of your work will be held ransom by Solidworks since there is no way to save a file anywhere but their servers. I am now trying to figure out how to rescue all of the file for this dividing head project along with MANY other projects I have done. 

Wish me luck, I think that the best I will be able to do is to convert to IGES or STeP or SAT and have dumb parts to work with in whatever new software I end up learning how to use.


----------



## Brento (Jan 30, 2022)

These CAD programs are getting worse and worse let me tell ya!


----------



## erikmannie (Jan 31, 2022)

Flyinfool said:


> *KA BOOM.*
> 
> Dassalt Systems, the makers of SolidWorks just pulled the plug on me and a LOT of others.
> I was using the free Student version that was a benefit of EAA. Solid works just changed from a free stand alone to a very stripped down cloud based with all functionality removed. All ability to save a file to anywhere but your user account has been removed. This means no draw the part and then 3D print it or send files to your CNC software. AND for this wonderful new system it is now an additional $50 per year and all of your work will be held ransom by Solidworks since there is no way to save a file anywhere but their servers. I am now trying to figure out how to rescue all of the file for this dividing head project along with MANY other projects I have done.
> ...



I have all of the dividing head drawing files saved on my PC, and my brother-in-law has a SolidWorks license. He is a wizard with SolidWorks. Let me know what I can do to help.

These files can also be found attached to Post #394 in this thread:









						Group Project:  Dividing Head - Organization and Design
					

Good point. I should be able to fit a couple of them on the lathe at a time at least. It's a PM1127, and the part is about 6" long, so perhaps 3 at a time, depending..  I have read that stress isn't as big an issue on hot formed material, but I'm unsure how much difference it makes.  I'd put the...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## Flyinfool (Jan 31, 2022)

I have all of the Solidworks files on my server. That is not the issue. I can no longer use solidworks to open the files due to their new policies. I will try taking some to work to see if the version of Inventor we have can open them and save to a usable format. It is not just the dividing head, I have many other projects I need to figure out how to save as well.


----------



## erikmannie (Feb 1, 2022)

Flyinfool said:


> I have all of the Solidworks files on my server. That is not the issue. I can no longer use solidworks to open the files due to their new policies. I will try taking some to work to see if the version of Inventor we have can open them and save to a usable format. It is not just the dividing head, I have many other projects I need to figure out how to save as well.



I see. That is a bummer, indeed!

I have yet to mill the 6 remaining slots on the 12L14 spindles because I’ve been working such long hours, but I do have 2 weeks off in March.


----------



## matthewsx (Feb 1, 2022)

Looking forward to seeing this project come to fruition.

Yeah, Solidworks. Our vault at work has been updating nearly a week, don’t want to get into it but my boss deserves a medal for his patience. And ya think for what it costs their utilities ought to actually work.


----------



## Shotgun (Feb 1, 2022)

I worked for a year to put the design for the Dyke Delta in a CAD package that was "free".  This was back in 2003 or so.  Then they cancelled the "free" version and made it time out so that you couldn't use it anymore.  And, now I've gone and done the same thing with Solidworks.  Somehow, I'm questioning my sanity.  If only the open-source options weren't so bad.

BTW, I'm halfway through the second set of clamps.  I bought  a 20yr old motorhome, that has eaten a lot of time, and the cold is hitting me harder than it ever used to.  But, I'm getting there.  Should have a good session this Saturday morning.  I am starting to feel the itch for upgraded machines.


----------



## Ianagos (Feb 1, 2022)

I need to get on with my part. Just a bit afraid of messing it up.

I bought a little 7” shaper and i think this diving head would suite the shaper pretty well.


----------



## Brento (Feb 1, 2022)

I am far behind as well. Its been very cold here so its hard to get in the shop lately here as well.


----------



## rwm (Feb 1, 2022)

It is good to see y'all chiming in. I was ascared this thread was stalled out. I am ready and able to proceed! I am only working 2 days a week now!


----------



## Brento (Feb 1, 2022)

Im wanting to get moving but these 0 degree nights make it hard to go into the shop. I was able to get it cleaned and organized good though!


----------



## rwm (Feb 3, 2022)

What do you mean by zero degree nights? As in a straight line? Or would that be 180 degrees? Laying flat instead of standing? That could be called zero degrees.


----------



## Just for fun (Feb 3, 2022)

I think he ment to say 0° COLD COLD COLD.

TIM


----------



## Brento (Feb 3, 2022)

Idk how to get the degree symbol on my phone lol so yea temperature has been single digits to 0 lately

Edit: i just found how to do 0°!!


----------



## rwm (Feb 4, 2022)

Oh come on, it doesn't get that cold in the US. If it did, every one would move!


----------



## ErichKeane (Feb 4, 2022)

rwm said:


> Oh come on, it doesn't get that cold in the US. If it did, every one would move!


My aunt/uncle just moved to Saskatoon a few years ago (from SoCal!).  I know, I TOO am appalled that people would choose to live somewhere that cold!  So if folks are willing to live there....


To note: As I type this, it is -23F/-31C in Saskatoon, and today will have a high of 3F/-16C.


----------



## Doug Gray (Feb 4, 2022)

It's sunny here in Winnipeg


----------



## rwm (Feb 4, 2022)

I'm surprised the electrons can move in your internet...


----------



## Shotgun (Feb 4, 2022)

My problem is the cold, so much as the switch up.  It's been below freezing a lot lately.  Yesterday, it warmed up to a rainy 70 degree day.  The wife left the garage door open, and I came out to soaking wet lathe and bench mill.  The condensation was as if everything had a hose turned on it.


----------



## Flyinfool (Apr 13, 2022)

Woo Hoo
I finally got my 3D printer back running last night.
I ended up getting a new main board and all new TMC2209 drivers.
It is printing a calibration plot now.
With the new drivers all of the steppers were running backwards, I had to go into the config.h file and find the direction controls to reverse all of them.
It is well known that these drivers make the steppers quieter than the stock ones, But WOW, This thing is now dead silent while printing. I like it.

Once the calibration process is done one of the first things on the list will be the printed tooling to finish the sectors.


----------



## erikmannie (Apr 13, 2022)

I was wondering about this group project. I still have to finish the slots. How is everybody doing?


----------



## erikmannie (Apr 13, 2022)

Here is what I have been sitting on:


----------



## Shotgun (Apr 14, 2022)

It is warm in the shop again, and I've got a three day weekend.  I made a small amount of progress on the large clamps, but now with a bunch of honeydews out of the way, I'm set to really dig in again.


----------



## Ianagos (Apr 14, 2022)

I was wondering what was going on.

I’m still afraid to destroy this material I have but I think I need to just go for it


----------



## rwm (Apr 15, 2022)

I'm ready to roll...or turn.


----------



## Brento (Apr 15, 2022)

I should be ready to get back to it very soon as well.


----------



## erikmannie (Sep 12, 2022)

Is this group project still happening?


----------



## rwm (Sep 12, 2022)

I am still in. Some of us have already made parts. If we can't move forward as originally planed, I would still be interested in exchanging parts.


----------



## Shotgun (Sep 12, 2022)

I've still been working on parts.  The thing that has been slowing me down is upgrading equipment so that I can make parts that I won't be ashamed to share.


----------



## Flyinfool (Sep 12, 2022)

I am also still in. I have finally got my 3D printer repaired to make some tooling needed for the part I am working on. I have the holders printed but have to do a bit of machining on them to get them ready to use. I also have to make the special clamps to hold the part down. Once I get to it I plan to have some pics. I will not have much time to work on it until the weather goes cold.


----------



## erikmannie (Sep 13, 2022)

I have to finish milling the slots in the spindles.


----------



## rwm (Sep 14, 2022)

I plan to finish one of these under any circumstance. I feel like the most challenging part will be hobbing the gear. I may start with that and see what I can come up with.


----------



## ErichKeane (Sep 14, 2022)

rwm said:


> I plan to finish one of these under any circumstance. I feel like the most challenging part will be hobbing the gear. I may start with that and see what I can come up with.


Yeah, I got stuck at the hobbing :/ I was able to make the blanks and the other parts, but couldn't get the hobber to work.

I AM working on an automatic gear hobber project at the moment though


----------



## rwm (Sep 14, 2022)

ErichKeane said:


> Yeah, I got stuck at the hobbing :/ I was able to make the blanks and the other parts, but couldn't get the hobber to work.
> 
> I AM working on an automatic gear hobber project at the moment though


That's great! Please fill us in on what the difficulties are and consider starting a thread of your hobber.


----------



## ErichKeane (Sep 14, 2022)

rwm said:


> That's great! Please fill us in on what the difficulties are and consider starting a thread of your hobber.


I did in fact! Check out my thread in the projects forum.


----------



## rwm (Sep 15, 2022)

If you get the hobbing working, I have some more material to cast brass/bronze blanks. Will be following the thread.


----------



## rwm (Sep 15, 2022)

FYI- I calculate a lead angle of 4.55 deg for a 4 TPI 1" worm. Check my work. Does that sound correct?


----------

