# Tightening up a screwless vise



## Frank O (Feb 21, 2020)

I have one of these LMS 3" screwless vises I bought about 12 years ago:









						Vise, 3" Screwless 1590
					

Screwless Vises 1590 Hardened and Precision Ground; Square and Parallel within 0.0005"; Ground "V" Way; This high precision toolmakers screwless vise ...




					littlemachineshop.com
				




It worked out okay over the years on a mini-mill, but after getting a larger 5550/Siegx2.7 mill recently I've noticed it's harder and harder to get a good grip on the workpiece with it.

Today for example I had a rectangular piece of 1/8"-thick aluminum to make some holes in. I put a couple of parallels against each jaw of the vise, put the workpiece in on top of them, then push the jaws together as forcefully as possible as I tighten the hex bolt on top of the vise. No matter how much I pushed, the workpiece ended up just sliding back and forth.

I thought maybe there was some grit inside the vise, so I disassembled, cleaned and reassembled it, but this didn't cure the problem.

Is there some issue with my technique, or should I be thinking about a new vise? (A larger one having been on my wanted list for a while anyway.)


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## francist (Feb 21, 2020)

I have one very similar and I really like it. One thing that gets me every now and then is if I’m right at the transition limit between notches, as it were. If the bolt runs out of thread in its receiver before the jaws tighten against the work it can still “feel” tight but the jaws aren’t. Try putting in a spacer (doesn’t matter what thickness, 1/4” say) with the same 1/8” thick piece you’re trying to clamp. If it tightens fine that could be the reason, if you still can’t get it tight then there’s something else going on.

-frank


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## benmychree (Feb 21, 2020)

Maybe you need to back off the allen bolt further before sliding the jaw up, then do the tightening?


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## Mini Cooper S (Feb 21, 2020)

Sometimes those vises will not tighten because it runs out of travel for the hole that the cross pin is in, could that be what is happening?  I have one of those from Suburban Tool. It is VERY accurate and I use it for grinding only.  As for a new vise, I have one word for you....Kurt!  I do realize that we must live within budget constraints


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## higgite (Feb 21, 2020)

benmychree said:


> Maybe you need to back off the allen bolt further before sliding the jaw up, then do the tightening?


This ^^^^. Ben and Coop both nailed it.
I have a similar vise by Tormach and it does the same. Drove me crazy until I figured it out. (I know, I know, crazy isn't a drive for me, it's just a short walk.)

Tom


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## T Bredehoft (Feb 21, 2020)

I bought one (screwless vice)  6 months ago, to keep from wearing out the screw type one I made in 1973. I've only tried to use it twice, couldn't get it to tighten.  My inexperience, I guess. I'll try again next year.


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## brino (Feb 21, 2020)

T Bredehoft said:


> I'll try again next year.



Wouldn't want to rush into anything.......


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## petertha (Feb 22, 2020)

I have a few of these. The price is right, the basic grinding is good. But the pin & bolt assembly on mine were all crap.

- if you increase the OD of the larger diameter body, it will give more screw length, which gives more jaw movement for any notch. It will also help with the annoying issue when it drops out of the notch & gets cockeyed, necessitating much fiddle farting. The larger diameter just drops down a bit (the underlying surface typically).

- make the width of the large body closer to the rail sides and the pin diameter a closer fit to notches. It slides much better & you can hear/feel each detente position. Mine were just plain badly executed.

- clean the grinder mung while you're in there


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## Frank O (Feb 22, 2020)

Mini Cooper S said:


> As for a new vise, I have one word for you....Kurt!



Speaking of vise upgrades ...

I see Amazon has a 6" genuine Kurt for $587:






						Amazon.com: Kurt DX6 Vise with 9" Opening, 6" Size, 4.360" Height, 7.391" Width, 16.810" Length, Blue : Sports & Outdoors
					

Buy Kurt DX6 Vise with 9" Opening, 6" Size, 4.360" Height, 7.391" Width, 16.810" Length, Blue: Fly Tying Equipment - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



					smile.amazon.com
				




While LMS has a 5" "pro" Kurt-style on a swivel base for $309.95:









						Vise, 5" Precision Milling, Professional Grade 3951
					

Milling Vises 3951 Precision 5" Kurt-style milling machine vise with swivel base; Top, bottom of vise bed, gib, jaws, swivel base, and all plate mount...




					littlemachineshop.com
				




Which brings two questions to mind:

First, is there any potential issue with either or both of these being the appropriate size for an LMS 5550/Siegx2.7 mill?

Second, apart from the fact that the Kurt is U.S.-made and the other is almost certainly not, is there a strong case to be made for spending almost twice as much for the Kurt?


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## mikey (Feb 22, 2020)

The LMS 5550 has a table a little over 6" wide so yeah, there is going to mean overhang on your side. I'm not even sure you could bolt a 6" vise in the forward T-slot without some of the vise hanging over the back end of the table; this is going to compromise your space in Y and that's a big deal. I think a 4" vise might work and one could argue that a 3" might be just right. My table is 8" wide and a Kurt 4" is the perfect fit for it.

Well, with Kurt you have a precision vise with a known reputation for quality and accuracy and a lifetime warranty. A Kurt vise will work right out of the box without requiring any mods to work correctly. The same cannot be said for many import vises. Given that the vise is the most important work holding tool on the mill, yeah, a case can be made for a Kurt.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 22, 2020)

For what it’s worth, I just bought a 4” Glacern for my RF30 clone. 
The table is 24”x9” and I have 18.5” of spindle to table clearance. 
@mikey sage advice was key to my decision to spend the money on a quality vise. 

Glacern has the 4” on sale right now for $200 off. And $20 off shipping. 


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## Mini Cooper S (Feb 22, 2020)

Frank O said:


> Second, apart from the fact that the Kurt is U.S.-made and the other is almost certainly not, is there a strong case to be made for spending almost twice as much for the Kurt?



I have used both Kurt and the knockoffs, while the Kurt tightens up very solidly with very little if any flex, the same cannot be said for the knockoffs. They had a lot of flex and just didn't feel very solid.  Weather it is worth the difference in price, only the purchaser can decide.  That said, I bought my second Kurt for my CNC used on Craig's List !


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## Aaron_W (Feb 22, 2020)

Frank O said:


> First, is there any potential issue with either or both of these being the appropriate size for an LMS 5550/Siegx2.7 mill?



5" would probably work for you, but 4" is going to be a better fit. I have a 6x24" Clausing mill that I got with a 5" Kurt clone, and it is a big vise. It works, but just.


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## Frank O (Feb 23, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> For what it’s worth, I just bought a 4” Glacern for my RF30 clone.
> The table is 24”x9” and I have 18.5” of spindle to table clearance.
> @mikey sage advice was key to my decision to spend the money on a quality vise.
> 
> Glacern has the 4” on sale right now for $200 off. And $20 off shipping.



Interesting. So, if the choice were between a 4" Glacern (it sounds like you have the premium model) vs. a 4" Kurt, is there a strong argument one way or the other?


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## darkzero (Feb 23, 2020)

Frank O said:


> Interesting. So, if the choice were between a 4" Glacern (it sounds like you have the premium model) vs. a 4" Kurt, is there a strong argument one way or the other?



I'd get the Kurt without question if budget allowed. I wanted a 5" vise though which Kurt no longer makes. Didn't feel like searching for a used 5" Kurt at the time. And I was budgeting at the time cause I was tooling up my mill so I went with a 5" Glacern. No regrets though, been happy with my Glacern & I'd buy it again (during a sale though like I originally did).


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## mikey (Feb 23, 2020)

Frank O said:


> Interesting. So, if the choice were between a 4" Glacern (it sounds like you have the premium model) vs. a 4" Kurt, is there a strong argument one way or the other?



Functionally, they will be much the same. Kurt is made in the US, while Glacern outsources their castings and machines them here, I believe. Both are highly regarded. If you can afford it, go with the Kurt. If on a budget, get the Glacern.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 23, 2020)

Frank O said:


> Interesting. So, if the choice were between a 4" Glacern (it sounds like you have the premium model) vs. a 4" Kurt, is there a strong argument one way or the other?



I considered the 4” Kurt but it was twice the price of the 4” Glacern on sale. 


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## ErichKeane (Feb 23, 2020)

Orange vices are really high quality as well!  I looked a few years ago for a new vice and ended up with a Kurt though.  Based on my research, Kurt/Orange are top tier, Glacern is next, then a bunch of imports, then the bad imports


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## Frank O (Feb 23, 2020)

mikey said:


> If you can afford it, go with the Kurt.





DavidR8 said:


> I considered the 4” Kurt but it was twice the price of the 4” Glacern on sale.




Looking at the options here:



			https://www.mscdirect.com/industrialtools/kurt-4-inch-vises.html
		


a basic Kurt vise 4" wide, 6.5" jaw opening seems relatively affordable at $653.73:



			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/30980429
		


But with various options, the 4" Kurts get a lot pricier than that.

If my priority is to go with something I'm going to be happy with over the long term, which 4" Kurt should I be looking at for my LMS 5550/Sieg x2.7?


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## ErichKeane (Feb 23, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Orange vices are really high quality as well!  I looked a few years ago for a new vice and ended up with a Kurt though.  Based on my research, Kurt/Orange are top tier, Glacern is next, then a bunch of imports, then the bad imports


Ah! Looks like Orange stopped selling standard vices and are just CNC vices now.  So they are insanely expensive.  Kurt seems to have done the same thing in 4" vises.  Glacern at least has their 'standard' vise for only $350.

Its nuts to me that the 4" vises are now more expensive than the 6" kurt!


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## DavidR8 (Feb 23, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Ah! Looks like Orange stopped selling standard vices and are just CNC vices now. So they are insanely expensive. Kurt seems to have done the same thing in 4" vises. Glacern at least has their 'standard' vise for only $350.
> 
> Its nuts to me that the 4" vises are now more expensive than the 6" kurt!



I noticed the same thing. I can’t figure out why as demand tends to drive pricing. 


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## DavidR8 (Feb 23, 2020)

Frank O said:


> Looking at the options here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If Kurt is your choice then this would be the one I would think. 









						Kurt DX4 CrossOver® Vise
					

The revolutionary DX4™ CrossOver® Vise combines all the great features of the world-renowned KURT D40 and 3400V vises, along with new state-of-the-art workholding features.




					www.kurtworkholding.com
				




I was given the advice to be aware of the overall height of the vise as vertical travel is a precious commodity in bench mills. Looks like your mill has around 13” of z-axis travel. The top of the Kurt is 3.365” off the table so I think you basically lose that height from your z-axis travel. 

The 4” Glacern is basically the same dimensions. 


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## Frank O (Feb 23, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> If Kurt is your choice then this would be the one I would think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks! 

I see that Kurt recommends these accessories for the DX4:









						Kurt DJ4 Starter Kit
					

The Starter Kit includes 2 master jaws, 2 - 4"aluminum jaws, 4 cap screw (English) 1 T-handle hex key. This starter kit is for a 4" wide Kurt vise.




					www.kurtworkholding.com
				




and









						Kurt Key, Sine, 3/4 X 13/16 IN
					

2 pieces of a Non-expandable O-Ring Style (English) sold in pairs.




					www.kurtworkholding.com
				



or 








						Kurt Key, Sine, 1/2 X 9/16 IN
					

2 pieces of a Non-expandable O-Ring Style (English) sold in pairs.




					www.kurtworkholding.com
				




On the starter kit, how useful or necessary are those items? 

On the sine keys, I gather these are to hold the vise on the table. For most fixtures like my little screwless vise I've gotten away with the 3/8"-16 clamping kit for 7/16" T-slots that I bought when I got my first mini-mill. That's not going to cut it with a Kurt? Not sure if either of the sine key sets mentioned on the Kurt website would even fit my 5550 mill.


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## ErichKeane (Feb 23, 2020)

The sine keys are to make lining the vice up on the table easier.  You put them in the bottom of the vice, and they go into your table slots. The hope is that they would just automatically line up.  I didn't find that to be the case.  With as rarely as I pull/place my vice, the extra 5 minutes of tramming my vice made them not really worth it.

With the starter kit: I think it is probably overpriced at $200.  You can either make or get aluminum vice jaws cheaply/easily (~$30), and the t-handle key + cap screws is probably another $10 of value.  The master jaws are INTERESTING, but only save you time when you swap jaws often.  I think I've swapped mine 3x in 4 years.


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## mikey (Feb 23, 2020)

You might want to watch Kurt's Scratch and Dent offerings. They sell vises with minor cosmetic defects that don't affect the function of the vise for much lower prices. If the price is too stiff even with that the go for a Glacern. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

I wouldn't opt for the "recommended" accessories unless they fill a specific need.


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## Frank O (Feb 23, 2020)

mikey said:


> You might want to watch Kurt's Scratch and Dent offerings. They sell vises with minor cosmetic defects that don't affect the function of the vise for much lower prices. If the price is too stiff even with that the go for a Glacern. I doubt you'll be disappointed.
> 
> I wouldn't opt for the "recommended" accessories unless they fill a specific need.



Thanks. I looked around, and the best price I could find on a new Kurt DX4 is from All Industrial, which is about 30 miles from me. So I might give them a call in the morning to see if they have them in stock.


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## ThinWoodsman (Feb 23, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> The sine keys are to make lining the vice up on the table easier. You put them in the bottom of the vice, and they go into your table slots. The hope is that they would just automatically line up. I didn't find that to be the case. With as rarely as I pull/place my vice, the extra 5 minutes of tramming my vice made them not really worth it.



I used dowel pins, as eighty bucks for the vise keys is beyond absurd. Don't remember the size, can measure if need be. Just get ones from McMaster that are the diameter of the hole in the vise, and size them about 1/4" less than the depth of the vise hole + depth of the table T-slots.


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## ericc (Feb 24, 2020)

My horizontal mill has a cheesy homemade vise.  I think it still has the torch cuts on it.  I even think a homemade vise out of aluminum would be better, but the cheesy one seems to have done the job so far.  A lot of my work involves clamped setups, anyway.


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## Dabbler (Feb 24, 2020)

I own a Kurt DX6 and a clone of the Kurt 633 made in Taiwan...  There is no easily measurable deflection difference when clamping.  

-- it is very important to say that most people clamp *way too hard*.  If you use an 18" Johnson bar to close your vise, there will be deflection and you can measure it.  I usually use a 7" 3/4 ratcheting box end wrench to tighten with. What is too hard or hard enough is a function of your feeding speed, spindle HP, cutter design and diameter, and toughness of the material.  Way too much for this thread.  

My point is, is that the Glacern 4" will easily be more than rigid enough for a bench mill.  He will be very happy with it.  A Kurt 4" is a very nice-to-have, but not a strong need.


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## Frank O (Feb 25, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> it is very important to say that most people clamp *way too hard*.  If you use an 18" Johnson bar to close your vise, there will be deflection and you can measure it.  I usually use a 7" 3/4 ratcheting box end wrench to tighten with. What is too hard or hard enough is a function of your feeding speed, spindle HP, cutter design and diameter, and toughness of the material.  Way too much for this thread.



Good point. I'm used to working with things where everytime a bolt is tightened, there's a spec for torque. Obviously as you say there will be a lot of different factors that will influence how tightly to close the vise. I'll definitely shoot for "just enough."


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## Frank O (Feb 25, 2020)

One of the nice things about living across town from All Industrial (and a 10-minute drive from LMS) is that I can get stuff fast without paying for premium shipping.




I'm still scratching my head about fastening it to the table. There's no positioning I can find that will place both of those semi-circle openings at the front and back of the vise (the forward one being visible here) over T-slots at the same time. I guess that since there's a lip at the left and right ends of the vise's base, I could dig into my clamp kit and find something to clamp them down with. Is there a slicker way to do this?


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## ErichKeane (Feb 25, 2020)

Frank O said:


> One of the nice things about living across town from All Industrial (and a 10-minute drive from LMS) is that I can get stuff fast without paying for premium shipping.
> 
> View attachment 314728
> 
> ...


Mill vices are typically mounted 90 degrees from that. You use the same tslot for both bolts.


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## darkzero (Feb 25, 2020)

Nice vise but that vise is way too big for your mill IMO. As Erich mentioned, vises are not normally mounted in that position.


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## Frank O (Feb 25, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Nice vise but that vise is way too big for your mill IMO. As Erich mentioned, vises are not normally mounted in that position.



I see the point about size. I'd been thinking that there was plenty of room on the table for this vise when positioned as in my photo, but when 90 degrees from that, not so.


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## darkzero (Feb 25, 2020)

For the X2 mini mill, most people use a 3" screwless vise or even a 4" screwless. A 4" Kurt style vise is too much vise for that size machine. I have heard of people using them but they modify the vise by milling off the front for clearance. Even then it's still too big. No way I would do that to a brand new Kurt let alone a used one, a really cheap import maybe.

A 3" screwless vise should hold parts just fine for your mill. You may have an issue with your vise if it's slipping. IMO if you need a larger vise I'd go with a 4" screwless at the most but a 3" screwless should be perfectly fine as most people are using.

But hey, now that you have the 4" Kurt in hand & if you decide to keep it, now you have an excuse to buy a larger mill!


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## Frank O (Feb 25, 2020)

darkzero said:


> For the X2 mini mill, most people use a 3" screwless vise or even a 4" screwless.



I've had an x2 mini-mill, but this one is actually a little bigger, an LMS 5550 / Sieg x2.7. LMS calls it a "bench mill" rather than "mini mill."

Having said that, the DX4 does seem big for it. Can't see buying a larger mill at this point, though.

If you look back at the beginning of the thread, my issue is that I've been using a 3" screwless vise I bought years ago for my old mini-mill, but have been having trouble getting it tightened on workpieces. I was liking the idea of going with a vise with a screw. Is there anything smaller than a Kurt DX4 that could work, without going back to a screwless vise?


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## darkzero (Feb 25, 2020)

I admit, I only briefly skimmed through the thread after seeing your Kurt purchase post. I have a RF-45 style mill & I have milled using a 3" screwless vise once without any issue. I wasn't hogging away material though. I have a 5" Kurt style vise but I also have a 4" screwless vise. You mentioned being close to LMS, I've seen 3" non-screwless vises at LMS before. I know nothing about them though nor did I look at them closely, just remembered seeing them there.

Edit: N/M, looks like I have viewed this thread before & posted earlier. Man I must be getting old too soon.


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## mikey (Feb 25, 2020)

Thought it might be bit too big. 

Kurt used to make a D30, a 3" machine vise. They are really rare nowadays but I happened to check ebay and there's two listed. The  seller taking offers. Here is the first and here is the second. I think these things are quite used and I would bid at about 30% of retail so maybe $120 - 180 max.


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## darkzero (Feb 25, 2020)

They have 3" in both CNC & Kurt style.









						Vises: Milling Vises
					

Precision vises for holding work on a milling machine




					littlemachineshop.com


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## Frank O (Feb 25, 2020)

Okay, I emailed LMS and asked if they have recommendations.


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## Dabbler (Feb 25, 2020)

With the vise mounted 90 degrees to the picture and the bolts in the closest T slot, is that still a problem?
-- My point is that the vise can look too large for the mill and still be quite usable. (After you spent the money, why not use it)...


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## Aaron_W (Feb 26, 2020)

Before you return the vise and / or buy another 3" vise, try mounting it and running the table around as if you are using it. Kurt style vises always look too big to me on most mills, but unless the DX4 is a huge 4" vise you should be ok. The table on your mill is slightly larger than that on my Clausing and we have similar Y travel. I have a 5" Kurt clone on mine which works. Granted mine is a knee mill vs your bench mill but that shouldn't make too much of a difference.


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## Frank O (Feb 26, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> Before you return the vise and / or buy another 3" vise, try mounting it and running the table around as if you are using it. Kurt style vises always look too big to me on most mills, but unless the DX4 is a huge 4" vise you should be ok. The table on your mill is slightly larger than that on my Clausing and we have similar Y travel. I have a 5" Kurt clone on mine which works. Granted mine is a knee mill vs your bench mill but that shouldn't make too much of a difference.



Tried that -- it's kind of tight in the Y direction. If I place the vise on the table in a position where it won't tip off without being bolted down, it's very tight to crank the table toward the user enough to get the tool back to the rear vise jaw. To get more room in that direction, I'd have to mount the vise on the table closer toward the user in a position where it would naturally tip off if it wasn't bolted down. That could work, but the weight of the vise over time might cause torque on the tabletop that the designers didn't plan for.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 26, 2020)

I looked at the specs for the LMS 5550 mill and the table is 6.3" deep. 
The 4" Kurt is 12.5" long. In my opinion it too large for the mill for the reasons you describe.
To get it further onto the table it will restrict Y-axis travel and further back its bolted to the outside T-slot.

I would be curious to see what vise LMS recommends for the mill.


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## ericc (Feb 26, 2020)

Is it possible to come up with a temporary solution until something better just drops on you?  How about an aluminum tooling plate, with countersink holes and screws going into T-nuts.  Then, bolt the vise to the plate.  You can often get drops for decent prices.  The problem is that you will lose some precious Y space.


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## ErichKeane (Feb 26, 2020)

ericc said:


> Is it possible to come up with a temporary solution until something better just drops on you?  How about an aluminum tooling plate, with countersink holes and screws going into T-nuts.  Then, bolt the vise to the plate.  You can often get drops for decent prices.  The problem is that you will lose some precious Y space.


I think he said he was within driving distance of LMS, right?  They have a 3" CNC screw vice that would require hold downs to attach to the table, but would probably be perfect here.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 26, 2020)

Frank O said:


> Tried that -- it's kind of tight in the Y direction. If I place the vise on the table in a position where it won't tip off without being bolted down, it's very tight to crank the table toward the user enough to get the tool back to the rear vise jaw. To get more room in that direction, I'd have to mount the vise on the table closer toward the user in a position where it would naturally tip off if it wasn't bolted down. That could work, but the weight of the vise over time might cause torque on the tabletop that the designers didn't plan for.



Here is mine, it is almost 15" long so 2"+ longer than that DX4. I wonder if the placement of the hold down bolts is different, the centers of the hold down bolts on mine are 5.75" from the front of the vise. Mounted on the 3rd slot back there is probably 3/4" of over hang towards the column and my table is 6", LMS says yours is 6.3". There is quite an overhang on the back but it will stay put in this position when the bolts are removed.

Personally I think this vise is too big, but it is what it came with. The prior owner had this mill for years and also thought it was too big, but it is a good vise, it works and vises are expensive.

This mill does have the benefit of the head being mounted on a ram so I can adjust the distance to the column which can help with the reduced Y movement, unlike a bench mill.


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## Frank O (Feb 26, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I would be curious to see what vise LMS recommends for the mill.



First, thanks for the other comments from everybody.

LMS emailed me back and said they typically recommend this for the 5550:









						4 Inch Precision Milling Vise | Drill Press Milling Vise
					

Secure your work with this 4 inch precision milling vise. The hardened and fixed jaw of the drill press milling vise is bolted from the top to enhance rigidity.




					littlemachineshop.com
				




They consider the 4" about ideal -- it will hang off the back some and eat up a little of the y-axis travel, maybe about the last 0.5"-1.0". If that's a concern, they recommend the 3" version:









						Kurt-Style Milling Vise | Milling Machine Vise
					

This Kurt-style milling vise has angle tight positive, lock-style jaws that are hardened and precision ground. Hold your workpieces securely with this milling machine vise.




					littlemachineshop.com
				




They said that's actually what they have mounted on their floor model, and it barely hangs over the back edge when mounted on the center slot.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 26, 2020)

Frank O said:


> First, thanks for the other comments from everybody.
> 
> LMS emailed me back and said they typically recommend this for the 5550:
> 
> ...


Good that they got back to you. 
That vise looks smaller than the Kurt DX4 Crossover. I'd bet that it's similar in size to the 4" Homge which Precision Matthews sells. 
From the hold down bolt to the front looks to be about 4.75"


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## higgite (Feb 26, 2020)

FWIW, I’m going to veer back to screwless vises (see thread topic)  and touch on why I have one on an LMS 5500 that I mentioned earlier. I struggled with the vise overhang issue before I settled on a Tormach 90mm screwless vise and so far I have no regrets. One advantage of a screwless vise or a “CNC” vise is they aren’t restrained to certain locations on the table by having to line up hold down bolt slots with slots in the table. Mine is mounted flush with the back of the mill table with hold down clamps, so it eats up no Y travel. But, I can see where that might not be a concern if one had an X-axis DRO mounted to the back of the table. A little overhang wouldn’t matter. It also may or may not be a concern on the new LMS 5550 since its larger table reduces Y travel by over an inch compared to my 5500 anyway.

Tom


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## Frank O (Feb 27, 2020)

higgite said:


> FWIW, I’m going to veer back to screwless vises (see thread topic)  and touch on why I have one on an LMS 5500 that I mentioned earlier. I struggled with the vise overhang issue before I settled on a Tormach 90mm screwless vise and so far I have no regrets. One advantage of a screwless vise or a “CNC” vise is they aren’t restrained to certain locations on the table by having to line up hold down bolt slots with slots in the table. Mine is mounted flush with the back of the mill table with hold down clamps, so it eats up no Y travel. But, I can see where that might not be a concern if one had an X-axis DRO mounted to the back of the table. A little overhang wouldn’t matter. It also may or may not be a concern on the new LMS 5550 since its larger table reduces Y travel by over an inch compared to my 5500 anyway.



I've enjoyed my 3" screwless vise for years, but to go back to the original theme of this thread, I can't get mine to tighten correctly on workpieces these days, despite cleaning it out, backing it off etc. Maybe it's just getting tired.


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## mikey (Feb 27, 2020)

Frank, have you tried a new screw for that screwless vise?


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## Frank O (Feb 27, 2020)

mikey said:


> Frank, have you tried a new screw for that screwless vise?



Wait, is a screw for a screwless vise really a thing?

Just kidding, I know what you mean. I guess I could ask LMS if parts are available, since I bought it from them. Might not be the end of the world to fabricate myself, but one off-the-shelf would probably be better.


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## mikey (Feb 27, 2020)

You should be able to just buy a hardened cap screw from McMaster or some other industrial supplier. Might give it a try. My Sherline screwless vise is now 30 years old. At about year 25, parts began to slip. By that point, I sort of knew how to use that vise so I bought a new screw and no further issues. I figured the screw material was stretching, even though I don't really gronk down on it. In any case, that worked for me.


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## darkzero (Feb 27, 2020)

Frank O said:


> Wait, is a screw for a screwless vise really a thing?
> 
> Just kidding, I know what you mean. I guess I could ask LMS if parts are available, since I bought it from them. Might not be the end of the world to fabricate myself, but one off-the-shelf would probably be better.



Like Mike said, just get it anywhere, I wouldn't bother trying to get one from LMS. It's  just a plain SHCS on the import vises, not a speciality. At least they are on my 2 vises. I replaced them right away on mine cause I didn't like the quality of the ones that came with my vises.


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## Frank O (Feb 27, 2020)

mikey said:


> You should be able to just buy a hardened cap screw from McMaster or some other industrial supplier. Might give it a try. My Sherline screwless vise is now 30 years old. At about year 25, parts began to slip. By that point, I sort of knew how to use that vise so I bought a new screw and no further issues. I figured the screw material was stretching, even though I don't really gronk down on it. In any case, that worked for me.



Happy to give that a shot, but is the cap screw pretty definitely the part that fails? On mine I can see that the cap screw has some mashed threads, but the part it threads into also has some scoring:




I'm also thinking about what to do with the Kurt DX4. All Industrial says I can return it for the price of the vise itself, so I'd basically be just be out the shipping charge (or the gas and time to drive it down to Huntington Beach). Then again, there are times I wish I had a larger vise for some workpieces, so holding on to it doesn't seem completely crazy. Though it's kind of pricey as a once-in-a-while special-purpose vise.


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## darkzero (Feb 27, 2020)

The area on the SHCS that is chowdered looks like it's from the spherical washer. The other end could very well be worn too especially if it had a loose fit to begin with. Doesn't look hard to make & definitely worth making to save the vise. Might as well & I would make a few of them while you are at it.


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## mikey (Feb 27, 2020)

I agree with Will. It looks like that screw under the head is deformed. At the very least, I would buy a new screw and put a washer under it before sticking it into the hemispherical pivot thingy again. The receiver is not difficult to make but I would try the screw first to see if that resolves the issue.

As for the vise, I would return it. Your table is only a little over 6" deep, which is not a lot of room.  I think a 3-4" screwless vise would be better, or maybe a 3" Kurt vise. A Kurt vise is pretty well made so even an older used 3" will probably be better than a 3" import, provided you can get the Kurt for a decent price.


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## Frank O (Feb 28, 2020)

mikey said:


> As for the vise, I would return it. Your table is only a little over 6" deep, which is not a lot of room.  I think a 3-4" screwless vise would be better, or maybe a 3" Kurt vise. A Kurt vise is pretty well made so even an older used 3" will probably be better than a 3" import, provided you can get the Kurt for a decent price.



Thanks. So, if I return the DX4, suppose that every once in a while I need to mill something like a 6" x 6" square plate. If I go with a vise or vises with maximum openings narrower than that, any thoughts on the best way to hold it? I could probably use my clamping kit to gin something up, but it seems like that could be more time-consuming.


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## mikey (Feb 28, 2020)

If you went with a Kurt 3" vise, there are threaded holes on the outside of the static and dynamic jaws. You can take the "jaws" and move them from the inside to the outside. That gives you more than enough capacity to hold a 6" plate, I think.

Otherwise, you would need to clamp the work piece to the table and use hold down clamps.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 28, 2020)

I don't positively know the actual size of the 3" Kurt vises, but I do have the dimensions of a 3" Kurt clone as I was curious if my Sherline could manage one, since there are no 2" Kurt style vises. The 3" is 9.9" long (so no, not going to fit on the Sherline   ).


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## mikey (Feb 28, 2020)

I linked to this vise before but I wonder if he would come down on his price. He is pricing this 3" vise higher than his 4 and 5 inch Kurt vises so this guy knows the 3" vises are rare. Yeah, I know its not a new one but if he will come down to maybe $200 or so then it might be worth it. Someone drilled to holes into the bed. This won't affect the function of the vise but that right there drops its value significantly. If you are at all interested in it, try negotiating. He might just come down far enough to be worth it.

Oh yeah, these 3" vises are rare but they are not that rare. Another will pop up eventually if you can be patient.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 28, 2020)

mikey said:


> I linked to this vise before but I wonder if he would come down on his price. He is pricing this 3" vise higher than his 4 and 5 inch Kurt vises so this guy knows the 3" vises are rare. Yeah, I know its not a new one but if he will come down to maybe $200 or so then it might be worth it. Someone drilled to holes into the bed. This won't affect the function of the vise but that right there drops its value significantly. If you are at all interested in it, try negotiating. He might just come down far enough to be worth it.
> 
> Oh yeah, these 3" vises are rare but they are not that rare. Another will pop up eventually if you can be patient.



I've been watching for an "inexpensive" 4" Kurt vise off and on for about a year and they just don't seen to exist. 

The $485 the All Industrial is charging for a new DX4 (retail from Kurt is $612) is less than some are asking for a used D40 and the $389 Glacern is asking for the GSV-440 is a real bargain compared to many used 4" vises. 

Are there any old US vises other than Kurt worth looking at? I have a 4" Palmgren (1940s vintage) that came with my horizontal mill. It is much lighter weight (and much more compact) than the Kurt style but seems to be a quality vise. I've seen similar ones selling in the $150-200 range, so they are much more affordable, but don't know how they rate compared to a Kurt. Occassionally see vises from Pratt & Whitney, Brown & Sharpe etc, again usually much cheaper.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 28, 2020)

Or how about these Wiltons? I know Mikey likes their 2" vise, Amazon has the 3" for $284, and the 4" (appears to be smaller than the DX4) for $489. 

Probably not as solid, but it is going on a relatively small mill.


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## mikey (Feb 28, 2020)

Aaron, I'll offer an opinion. The current Wilton line of milling vises are made in India by Groz if I'm not mistaken. My 2" is an old one made by Wilton in the US; I do not know if the quality of those made in India is the same but I can tell you that the dynamic jaw is guided by adjustable gib screws underneath the jaw. This is meant to limit jaw tilt but it does NOT eliminate it. It is nowhere near as good as the anglelok design.

I also own a Wilton-made 2" and a Groz-made Wilton 3" screwless vise and they are excellent vises. If you're looking for one of these then I can recommend them.

There are many vises out there but if I were to do it all over again, I would still buy a Kurt (or Glacern). I cannot afford an Orange.


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## Frank O (Feb 28, 2020)

mikey said:


> At the very least, I would buy a new screw and put a washer under it before sticking it into the hemispherical pivot thingy again. The receiver is not difficult to make but I would try the screw first to see if that resolves the issue.



I was near LMS today, so I stopped in and found they sell this entire assembly for the 3" screwless vises for $9.95. Considering the UPS Ground I'd have to pay to buy a cap screw from McMaster, I think this worked out cheaper. Vise now holds a workpiece well, will have to see how it works out over the long run.


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## mikey (Feb 28, 2020)

Put a stainless washer between the head of the screw and that half-ball thing to reduce wear, Frank.


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## Frank O (Feb 28, 2020)

mikey said:


> Put a stainless washer between the head of the screw and that half-ball thing to reduce wear, Frank.



Thanks, will do.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 28, 2020)

mikey said:


> Aaron, I'll offer an opinion. The current Wilton line of milling vises are made in India by Groz if I'm not mistaken. My 2" is an old one made by Wilton in the US; I do not know if the quality of those made in India is the same but I can tell you that the dynamic jaw is guided by adjustable gib screws underneath the jaw. This is meant to limit jaw tilt but it does NOT eliminate it. It is nowhere near as good as the anglelok design.
> 
> I also own a Wilton-made 2" and a Groz-made Wilton 3" screwless vise and they are excellent vises. If you're looking for one of these then I can recommend them.
> 
> There are many vises out there but if I were to do it all over again, I would still buy a Kurt (or Glacern). I cannot afford an Orange.



Yeah, I know they changed the country of manufacture. You recommended the 2" 2 axis to me sometime ago, and I just got my hands on a Wilton branded one. Obviously the design isn't as solid as the Kurt style, on mini-mill like a Sherline probably solid enough, but no idea on a larger mill although they do offer the 2 and 3 axis vises up to 6" so there must be some use to them.

I'm still waiting for mine to arrive so I don't know if it is an older USA made or India made, but the Wilton branded ones are 3x the price of the generic copies so I certainly hope the quality control is better. I got it at a price that compares well to the imports on Ebay so no big loss if it isn't worth paying extra for the brand name anymore.


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## mikey (Feb 28, 2020)

If you carefully adjust the gib screws, I think you will find that vise to be quite good.


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