# Upgrading to a QCTP ....... advice please



## Round in circles (Oct 7, 2014)

I'm contemplating  replacing the old peg & wedge tool post on my old 10 inch throw lathe, currently I've been using  a Myford clamp and centre bolt but have found this unsatisfactory in that the nine inch long boring tool I was using  kept easing out of true from under the clamp, which ended up giving me cone shaped holes which needed correcting at every second pass .

 I'm thinking of one of buying one of the QCTP's that have multiple detachable tool holders that can be quickly added or removed 
Have I got the correct thing in mind? .

 As I don't have much of a clue abut these type of tool posts will some of you guys who are familiar with them answer me a few questions .
 1.
 The biggest cutting tool I have is a 3/4 " square bar with re moveable tip. I have several others fin 1/2 " square bar .
Can you have a 3/4 capability QCTP and easily fir/hold 1/2 " tools in it with suitable packers  or are they infinitely adjustable?

2.
 I notice many of you guys usually have a ball ended lever on top of the tool post , in some pictures Ii see a champhered nut on top of this .
Would one of you take some pictures of the removed parts and lay them out in the correct assembly order so I can see if I need to have the additional parts/ handle please? . 

3. do any of you have advice about upgrading & putting on a new QCTP ...... things to consider etc.?

Thanks
 Dave


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## Fabrickator (Oct 7, 2014)

My 10" Grizzly G0602 uses a AXA size QCTP.  I purchased a Phase II for quality and price.  It will not accept a 3/4" tool bit.  It doesn't even drop low enough on my particular lathe for a 1/2" tool bit to hit center, maybe it would on yours.

I have 6 different holders because I like to keep them handy w/o resetting them all the time when I change tool bit size.  Some brands these are very expensive.  I suggest that you check the price of the tool holders before choosing your QCTP.  Phase II are about $60 each where Aloris is almost $100.


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## darkzero (Oct 7, 2014)

Yup, as said an AXA QCTP standard holders will accept 1/2" max tools. A 10" lathe would usually require an AXA size. The next size up is BXA & it's max capacity is 5/8" which is generally for 12"-14" lathes. 3/4" capacity would be CXA which is definitely too large for your lathe.

It's best to measure your lathe's coumpound slide to spindle centerline height to be sure which tool post you can fit. Generally you could mill down the shanks of your larger tools to fit.


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## Bill C. (Oct 7, 2014)

Round in circles said:


> I'm contemplating  replacing the old peg & wedge tool post on my old 10 inch throw lathe, currently I've been using  a Myford clamp and centre bolt but have found this unsatisfactory in that the nine inch long boring tool I was using  kept easing out of true from under the clamp, which ended up giving me cone shaped holes which needed correcting at every second pass .
> 
> I'm thinking of one of buying one of the QCTP's that have multiple detachable tool holders that can be quickly added or removed
> Have I got the correct thing in mind? .
> ...



Dave,

I don't have a lathe at home.  But when I working I used QCTP's all the time.  Depending on the size of your lathe will determine the size of the bits used. I found a piece of 1/8" x 1/2" CRS I cut to length to raise my 3/8" square bites to easily fit the 1/2" holders.  It has been my experience to raise the smaller bits up with a spacer or two so the holder has plenty of adjustment. 1/2" steel banding makes good spacers too.  Stack several pieces up to make the thickness you need. 

 I have read on here some owners had to modify the mounting bolt to fit their compound.  I would suggest you measure the mounting slot and the overall height so you will not have to spend a lot of time modifying the base.  You will be surprised once the holders are set up how quickly you can change tools.  I can't tell you who makes the best tooling for your lathe.  I think the small shops I worked in bought their tooling at auction.  The large shops bought top of the line.

Good luck and make a lot of chips


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## frostheave (Oct 7, 2014)

I have found one exception to the size rule and that is Dorian.  All of their tool holders seem to have a larger range than normally expected.  Below are a few Dorian examples.




So, will a Dorian AXA tool holder fit any other AXA QCTP?  Dorian says yes.  The following link shows a comparison of Dorian and Aloris BXA holders, and yes, the Dorian does fit the Aloris QCTP.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/24768-Aloris-vs-Phase-II-BXA-Tool-Post?p=222696&viewfull=1#post222696


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## spongerich (Oct 7, 2014)

If money is no object, an Aloris AXA is a wonderful addition to any 9-10" lathe.

I went with the Phase II AXA for my 10K  (at about 1/4 the cost) and I've been extremely happy with it.

If you really want to use 3/4" tooling, it wouldn't be too hard to make or modify a couple holders to accommodate it.  It would take 5 minutes if you have a mill, but worst case, a little quality time with a good file would do the trick.


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## Round in circles (Oct 7, 2014)

Thanks for the quick replies guys I'm starting to get a feel of the character for the QCTP.  

So what is being suggested is for me to do some measuring and see what may fit .
 Perhaps modify a couple of tool holders for 3/4 size changeable carbide cutter  tip tools that I currently own  and run with smaller indexable cutter sizes for the rest .


Do these QCTP's come complete with four tool holders ( one on each face of the block )  or are they individual buys  for what ever quantity you feel you may need ? 

 Do the actual  tool holder mountings on the slide have four sides to put the quick change tool  in or do you play, " Done with that,  take it out and slip another pre set up tool in its place?


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## darkzero (Oct 7, 2014)

frostheave said:


> So, will a Dorian AXA tool holder fit any other AXA QCTP?



Yes they will physically fit the tool post but that doesn't always mean you will be able to use one of their tool holders.......




frostheave said:


> I have found one exception to the size rule and that is Dorian.  All of their tool holders seem to have a larger range than normally expected.



That's Dorian for you, always trying to be innovative (a good thing) by constantly making changes (not always a good thing). This post may be a bit long so here it goes.

As far as I know, Aloris set the standard as they created the most known QCTP. I have a Dorian SQCTP, which I absolutely love over the others I have used/owned (Aloris, Armstrong, DTM, China, & PhaseII-China), but I follow Aloris' standards.

These are the following max tool capacities for each series'  standard holders (I'll just cover the 3 common sizes):

AXA - 1/2"
BXA - 5/8"
CXA - 3/4"


Now Aloris, DTM, Dorian (probably others too) make oversized holders which step up 1 shank size. The Aloris oversized holders have the 1S designation at the end of their holders' p/ns. The following are the capacities for the oversized holders

AXA - 5/8"
BXA - 3/4"
CXA - 1"


Dorian on the other hand seems to change their tool holders every so often & without warning or changing p/ns. In the past Dorian tool holders followed the same standard. I have a BXA so let's talk BXA. So Dorian would make standard holders for BXA that held 5/8" max shanks & also made oversized holders that held 3/4" shanks. Then at some point the standard size holders p/ns were found in the oversized dimensions. And later changed again.

Dorian does not update/change their p/ns when they make a major change. The Dorian BXA SQCTP is SDN30BXA but so were their previous QCTPs. When I ordered my Dorian SCQTP, at the time there were still the older cam lock (that's cam lock, not piston) tool posts in stock at various vendors & is what I received.


Dorian Cam Lock QCTP




But what I wanted was their "SQCTP" wedge lock.




As you can see they have the same p/n, same red paint. Many vendors had no idea what I was talking about. Even called Dorian & their CS was confused, not until Dorian transfered me to one of their engineers was I able to finally talk to someone who knew what I was talking about. He was very helpful, contacted the distributor I was buying from & I was finally able to get the right one. The previous cam lock model had black paint, but same p/n, the latest SQCTP is no longer red, it's silver now, again same p/n.

The Dorian BXA standard holder p/n is D30BXA-1 (or 2 for v groove) which is 5/8" capacity, well was. The Dorian BXA oversized holder p/n is D30BXA-1-100 which is 3/4" capacity, again was. So when I bought a Dorian oversized holder D30BXA-1-100, I was surprised to find that it had a 1" capacity & not 3/4" as it used to be. Now I can't even find anyone selling the oversized D30BXA-1-100 anymore, no one has it in stock. Why?

So now the standard holder D30BXA-1 comes with a 1" capacity but it's not identical to the D30BXA-1-100 oversized holder.


Here's a D30BXA-1 next to a D30BXA-1-100. Looks the same right? They aren't, look at the set screws placement.




The shank is 3/4"H x 1"W. As you can see the slot in the "standard" D30BXA-1 is not as deep as the oversized holder. The "standard" holder is only .6" deep & the oversized holder is 3/4" deep, no big deal though.




I like the tools to sit on the low end of my tool post, that way I can use largest shank tools (standard size) as well as smaller tools in my tool post. See how low the following tools sit?

5/8"



1/2"



3/8" (I rarely use smaller than 3/8", mostly 5/8" & 1/2")




Now here's the Dorian 1" capacity holder sitting as low as it can go.




See how tall it is. Your lathe size (compound slide to spindle centerline height) vs tool post size determines whether or not you can use Dorian's extremely oversized holders max capacity. Generally turning tools have their cutting edge inline with the top surface of the shank, not always, but usually. With that in mind look at this.


1" in the Dorian 1" holder & the holder bottomed out. No way a 1" shank will reach centerline of the spindle.




3/4" in the Dorian 1" holder, now 3/4" would be able to reach centerline.




So unless your lathe is using a tool post that is on the small end for the lathe size, you most likely will not be able to use Dorian's max capacity on the ridiculously oversized holders. I think AXA is on the small side for my lathe but only then would I be able to use Dorian's max capacities. I rather not & stick with BXA. 

Why they make it like that as a standard now beats the hell out of me but I don't like it. I don't like how their holders are inconsistently changing. I bet if you went out and bought a Dorian FTB tool post set right now you may not even received those 1" "standard" holders with the set as many vendors probably don't have them in stock yet.


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## Falcon67 (Oct 7, 2014)

Here is what's on my 9x20 - Phase II AXA.




The aluminum piece on the right is made specifically to adapt the tool post to the existing 9x20 type tool post mount.  This is typically unique to the 9x20 type lathes.  Others replace the threaded stock post with something more substantial.  Since the lathe isn't all that rigid, I'm not sure how much that work would buy you.




The adapter just threads over the old post mount and secures the body to the slide.  The handle is a 5/16' bolt with the head machined round.



I'd have to go find the detail (see Yahoo 9x20 group files) but the biggest tool I use on the machine is a 5/16" bit.  Much of anything larger requires the normal 9x20 tool post mount to be machined down so the tool post, tool holder and tool can reach the center line of the chuck.

It was well worth the expense and effort to fit this to the lathe.  I have several holders and it's a real time saver.  I have a specific job I run a lot using a special tool I ground and All I have to do is pop that holder on the post, line up with the part and go at it.


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## chuckorlando (Oct 7, 2014)

You could just mill the shank to fit. Unless you have the holders I would save the money on ones that large. Way more beef then you would need I would think. The handle on the top like above are just so you dont need a wrench to move the cutter approach. Not needed. Most have holders on 2 sides and most cases you just change the holder. Most used tools just get their own holder


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## frostheave (Oct 7, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Yes they will physically fit the tool post but that doesn't always mean you will be able to use one of their tool holders.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, that's quite a can of worms I opened up!  Thanks for the info Will.  I am AMAZED Dorian uses the same part number for both the piston and cam lock tool post holders.  How Can They Do That??????  What are they thinking?????  They make beautiful tools, BUT...  I am just speechless!

Bob


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## Vladymere (Oct 7, 2014)

Post #8 in this thread is an excellent post darkzero.

Vlad


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## darkzero (Oct 8, 2014)

frostheave said:


> Wow, that's quite a can of worms I opened up!  Thanks for the info Will.  I am AMAZED Dorian uses the same part number for both the piston and cam lock tool post holders.  How Can They Do That??????  What are they thinking?????  They make beautiful tools, BUT...  I am just speechless!
> 
> Bob



Not too big of a surprise I suppose. Many manufacturers make changes to their products. The cam lock tool post went out of production when they updated to the wedge lock & since it replaced the older product I guess there was no really need for a different p/n but it sure does cause confusion during yhat transition. It's like car model, often there are changes within a generation vehicle but at least they have designations by years to keep track of changes. With tools this really doesn't happen. Sometimes I wish it was easier for us to determine the dates of manufacture & changes but not really important.


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## frostheave (Oct 8, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Not too big of a surprise I suppose. Many manufacturers make changes to their products. The cam lock tool post went out of production when they updated to the wedge lock & since it replaced the older product I guess there was no really need for a different p/n but it sure does cause confusion during yhat transition. It's like car model, often there are changes within a generation vehicle but at least they have designations by years to keep track of changes. With tools this really doesn't happen. Sometimes I wish it was easier for us to determine the dates of manufacture & changes but not really important.



I hear what you are saying Will, but I just can't let Dorian off that easy.  Like I said before, they make beautiful tools, but if they can't keep track of what they sell, how are we supposed to?  Look at what you had to go through just to get the desired tool post holder.  I really find that unacceptable.  Bottom line, it must be affecting THEIR bottom line, and that is not good for anyone!

By the way, your pictures are excellent, bright and very good depth of field.  May I ask what camera you use?

Bob


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## darkzero (Oct 8, 2014)

Haha, yeah I see your point though. I'll still buy their tools when I can afford them. Many of of my indexable insert holders (my most used ones) are Dorian. If I had to do it all over again I still would buy their tool post. I just don't buy their QC tool holders as a first priority, I woukd rather buy Aloris holders but I haven't yet. But when I find a great deal on a use Dorian holder I'll jump on them. But their heavy duty boring bar holders are my favorite....well their newer ones, don't want to get into that but those were easy to get. :rofl:


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## george wilson (Oct 9, 2014)

A while back there was a long thread on another forum about problems experienced with Dorian. Poor customer service. Bad attitudes. I don't know if these problems have been cleared up. I plan to stick to my Aloris though,and avoid design changes that make problems. Besides,I think the longer sliding wedge design of Aloris is more rigid. It has been the industry standard for many years.


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## GK1918 (Oct 9, 2014)

george wilson said:


> A while back there was a long thread on another forum about problems experienced with Dorian. Poor customer service. Bad attitudes. I don't know if these problems have been cleared up. I plan to stick to my Aloris though,and avoid design changes that make problems. Besides,I think the longer sliding wedge design of Aloris is more rigid. It has been the industry standard for many years.



Yes correct george, but I think I read He has something like a 10" swing and he is updating his lantern?  When I did that I bought only because  Wholesale tools was right down the
street (gone now)  so I bought (2) quick change setups for my 9 & 10 SB AXA and ya over the pond pistons.   Thats A 100% improvement over a lantern, no knocking them but they
take time to set up.  Again, the old story puttin Caddilac hub cabs on a Chevy dont make it a Caddy.  Now If you have like I have a heavy 20 plus, then I say no, now your talking
big bucks for a great big wedge system.  Another words an expensive high tech. for a light machine for me is wasting money to be spent on more important tooling.
sam

Oh, I'm gonna get bashed on this one Sapphire....... "quote Geo.C. Stephens 1952" 

s


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## chips&more (Oct 10, 2014)

I have an Aloris BXA wedge type on a 14” lathe. I think it’s the best size and as far as quality, it’s been flawless for about 25 years now.  I use 3/8” HSS (MoMax & Super) square mostly. The holders can hold a bigger bit, but I do not see the need. For me, it only means more time at the grinder to remove more tool bit metal. A 3/8” is ridged enough for me. And MoMax can be a long grinding experience! If you are thinking about modifying an Aloris tool holder, maybe think again. The material is pretty tuff stuff and will eat up your tooling in the attempt. However, I have made several special holders out of aluminum (2024) and have surprised myself on how well they have held up…Good Luck.


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## Cadillac STS (Oct 13, 2014)

You can keep the oversized replaceable insert tools you have with your new QCTP.  Just mill down the bottom of the tool to half inch leaving the front inch under the insert alone.  Then they will still work and your tool is down to half inch height (If that is what you need.)


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