# Electric Vehicles on the horizon? Do your homework



## Janderso

To my friends,

I've been in the Ford dealer franchise business since 1976. I've been a general manager since the early 90's.
This momentum to move to an ever increasing electric vehicle line-up, has me questioning the wisdom.
""*General Motors* plans to completely phase out vehicles using internal combustion engines by 2035""

*High Voltage battery basics*:
Electric cars use Lithium-ion battery packs -"Critical raw *materials used* in manufacturing Li-*ion batteries* (LIBs) include *lithium*, graphite, cobalt, and manganese."

I've seen the videos of children in the Congo working in the cobalt mines. Huge open pit mines are used for other materials.

No, electric cars, they are not zero emissions vehicles... During manufacturing, energy production and at the end of their life cycle. In the first case, the need for mining activities to extract the rare earth metals that are used in batteries is very energy consuming and polluting.
As for the energy production, if the car is being powered with energy from burning fossil fuels, it is still releasing CO2 in the atmosphere, not from the tailpipe but from some distant power plant. When it comes to batteries being recycled, it is still an expensive and ongoing process and most batteries are not being recycled yet.

*The financial aspect of EV ownership*.
EV's come with a 115AC charger. It will not fully charge the battery overnight assuming it was down to a low state of charge. A high capacity charger is available but must (in most cases) be installed by an electrician. We installed two at the dealership at a cost of $1,100 each (charger and labor).
Know the costs!

*EV battery warranty*
The EV battery warranty in this country is 8 years or 100,000 miles. I just priced a replacement battery for the Mustang Mach e. The standard 68kWh battery is $26,000.
The upgraded 88kWh battery is $36,000 to replace. That's just the battery, it does not include labor or an unknown recycling charge. Anyone know how to get rid of a used 88 kWh battery?

What's that used EV worth, knowing the looming high cost battery replacement?

Yes I'm sure battery technology will continue to improve and there are institutions like MIT that are working on battery technology that uses common materials.

*Range anxiety*
You planned your trip, you know there is a high capacity charging station 175 miles into your journey. Hopefully when you get there the chargers are available. Another thing about Lithium-Ion batteries, they don't like heat. Hot climates and level 3 fast charging stations can diminish battery lifespan. It has been determined that regular use of level 3 high rate chargers will cause the batteries to fail (will not hold 70% of the original capacity) prematurely.

This subject is widely discussed on the web.

I wanted to start a discussion on this subject. Electric cars are coming but who can afford them? How do we recycle or dispose of the used batteries? Know the true cost and impact before you decide to buy an EV.

Thanks,
Jeff


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## Ulma Doctor

Ecologically, we need to have everyone drive Hummers to save our planet.
Battery technology is not the answer
Battery production and the lack of recycling  of these little packets of poison far outweighs clean air technology presently imposed
They are cute toys, but the (ecological) cost is not worth the ultimate price for the novelty


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## rabler

I did a spreadsheet for the cost difference in 2014 when I bought a Ford Fusion straight IC vs hybrid. IIRC the $5k additional charge for the hybrid was a 5 year break even at about $2.85/gallon given the number of miles per year I drove before retirement.  Not sure I actually reached that point.

Of course all vehicles have some carbon footprint in building and scrapping.  Centralized power generation is a bit more efficient than individual engines.  And power plants can be a ling way from more smog ridden city.  The carbon argument in my mind is not clear.

The cost of and disposal of batteries is a big open question in my mind.


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## vtcnc

I think this is a good discussion to have. There are a lot of questions as a consumer, engineer, service tech, salesperson, etc.

One thing I'm going to put out there now is that this discussion stay clear of politics.

TLDR: if your response is political, take it off this forum.

Everyone knows the topics that put us squarely into politics and are tangentially or directly related to the topic of electric vehicles. That is global warming hoaxes, political tax subsidies, government conspiracy theories and in general, political ideologies. I will state for the record that this rule, while nuanced, is clear to understand if one takes the time to do so.

________________________

Jeff,

Affordability. I think this is not an easy question to answer. There are many vehicles that kind of fall into the low-emission category but are not fully electric but are of the hybrid style.

I think the problem of natural resource consumption for the amount of energy required by _current _battery technology is a big problem that is not being addressed. If it is being addressed it is not clear to me what is being done in terms of new technology.

With that said, I can see myself jumping to hybrid in the next five years. But I'm sticking with conventional IC for now. Its proven technology and as emission controls and MPG requirements get more stringent, the cost of ownership will likely still be lower than EV for the foreseeable future and marginally better on emission controls for air quality than current IC which is one of the claimed benefits of purchasing an EV vehicle.

Scale will drop the price. But I think there is a limit to the natural resource supply for this technology. Here is an article discussing Li reserves. There is a lot of uncertainty about how much is really available.









						How long will the lithium supply last?
					

Researchers have sounded the alarm. If no serious efforts are made on second-life battery use, recycling and vehicle-to-grid applications, decarbonization efforts may hit the buffers a lot sooner than expected.




					www.pv-magazine.com
				




With that said, I think that the long term solution is a different technology such as hydrogen, or other chemical technologies. They actually exist and are coming.

I personally can't afford an all electric vehicle as of today. I think this option makes sense if you are in a financial sector of the world: high density population, higher salaries, short commuting distances, small-ish vehicle requirements. In a country as vast as the US, Canada, Russia or many westernized countries where people rely on their vehicles for work over longer distances - it is hard for me to see how this will work financially for the average blue collar worker - which is basically everyone.


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## Superburban

I do not think full electric is ready for prime time yet.

If one is going to look at the field, you need to break the offerings down.

1 full electric, with no gas option.
2 hybrid, gas & electric, with no electric only option.
3 Plug in hybrid, can plug it in, and have a limited range on electric, but still have the gas engine that reverts it back to a hybrid operation.

Many do not realize that a hybrid is not gas or electric. But rather a combination of both. Many gas cars have a setup that shuts off the engine at stop lights. When that happens, there is nothing turning the AC compressor, so the inside will start warming up. Then the starter has to start the engine when you lift your foot off the brake, so it is running to get you moving again. I like to describe a hybrid as a next generation of that.

At a stop, the engine is off, but the AC, power steering, brakes, ect are run off the battery. When you step on the gas, the electric motor will start you moving, and the gas engine will kick in and both will get you up to speed. then half way down the block as you start coasting, the gas engine will shut down, and the battery will keep the power steering, brakes, and AC working. As you coast, or hit the brakes, most of the momentum is used to give the battery a hair of a recharge. Then it all happens over again. With most if not all the hybrids, the electric motor that propels the vehicle, is also the one that starts the engine. so you have a 100 or more HP 3 phase AC motor for starting. Not a little 3 hp DC motor that will wear out in no time. Do not confues an electric or hybrid with a golf cart. These are way more advanced. Think of them more as a powerful 3 phase 400 to 600 volt AC motor, powered through a VFD.

The few I test drove, the engine kicking in was hard to notice.

I have a Chrysler Pacifica plug in hybrid, for 90% of my driving, it works great on electric only. But I live in a medium town, in the middle of nowhere, so I seldom need to go more the 10 miles, But it is still a great driving vehicle for long trips without needing to charge it. One thing it has, that some of the other offerings do not, is that the hybrid version still has almost the same gas engine that the gas version has, plus almost 200 hp electric motors that can also kick in if needed to accelerate. I say almost the same engine, as it is the same block, just setup for economy, and does not have the power across the range that a normal gas engine is setup to do, but it is not needed with the electric motors being there to get you off the line. taking 10 hours to recharge is ok for me, as I only drive a few days a week.  An added benifit, is I can precondition the car interrior with heat, or AC while it is still plugged, and not need to use gas.

I have about 10,000 miles on mine, about 2000 is from using the gas motor, most of that was from a trip I took to Yellowstone last fall. Even without plugging it in the whole trip, each day was about 2/3 gas, and 1/3 electric.

The other deciding factor for me, was the federal and state tax rebates. with trading in my gas 2017 Pacifica, I ended up getting a 2020 hybrid, that will save me gas, has more creature comforts, and only cost me a couple grand.

It has a 10 year. 100,000 mile warranty on the hybrid stuff, I plan on trading it in before that point.

Replacing the battery? Take a look, they are made up of several thousand individual cells. I doubt they will ever just disposed of, but rather rebuilt, with each cell tested, and only replace the ones that need. There is many folks on youtube, scarfing up the batteries, and using them for solar power storage.

I would not write of electric & hybrid vehicles as bad, the technology is improving, and can only get better. I have not studied, done research, or claim to be an expert, but I do think that tires could be a worse problem for the environment, that batteries that are pretty well all recycled.

If one does look at a hybrid, be sure to test drive in both modes.some campanies use a 4 cyl engine in their hybrids, and a 6 in the gas version, and people have complained that they cannot run on the highway very well.


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## Superburban

If one wants to understand hybrids better, this explanation of how the transmission used in most hybrids works, this is a great video to watch.






Also, when comparing the environmental effect, I think you need to take into account the simplicity of a electric, or hybrid, over these new gas cars with 8 to 10 speed transmissions. how much extra harm is done by the manufacturing, fluid changes, ect?


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## ErichKeane

We actually just bought my wife a Kia Niro EV and are incredibly happy with it.  Thanks to incentives/etc, we actually got it for roughly the same price as the ICE version of the same car.

While Lithium Ion batteries are pretty rough on the environment (about as much as getting oil from the ground), it is at least a 1 time cost.  Additionally, Aluminum-Ion batteries are apparently a few years away which should make that at least a little better.

Even when powered from coal/fossil fuels, the EVs are slightly better off emissions wise, since a giant generator running at perfect-efficiency all the time is better than an idling gas motor.

I installed a 220v charger, the charger itself was $350, and it took an afternoon to install.  It would have been less had I not had to run a circuit for it.

As far as battery replacement, that price is actually quite high, of course the factory replacement price is going to be sky-high!.  As the cars get older, recyclers/refurbishers of batteries are getting the prices down quite low.  Currently the battery-costs are roughly $100/kWh in a new car. Based on an article I read recently, the manufacturers all think they can get that to $60 in the next 2-3 years.  

Additionally, recycling the batteries is likely to become really easy really soon.  Early hybrid cars (like the Prius) already have a huge network to recycle them, you can often even make money on them (thanks to the value of the raw materials).

For Range Anxiety: We were pleasantly surprised with how plentiful Level-3 chargers are!  They DO reduce the life of the battery when used regularly, but how often do you really break 250 miles in a day?  In our case, its almost never, the overnight level-2 charger at our house is more than sufficient.  Note that just about every Walmart in the country has chargers in their lots these days.  There are even apps (PlugShare) to help find chargers with live-status.  

I'm a massive petrol head that was quite sure that electric cars were still YEARS away, but other events forced our hands (my wife's car got totaled).  We still have my Diesel pickup as a backup in case we need a long journey that we can't do quick chargers, but I'm more-and-more convinced that we don't even need that.

Just my 2c based on having owned one for a month now.


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## Superburban

Avilability of chargers is a good point. This little town only has a few, one Tesla one that I cannot use, and Sams club has one that costs upwards of $5 an hour(to charge my Pacifica, it costs me $1.25 with our rates at home, to get 30 to 40 miles. A level 2 charger takes 2.5 to 3 hours to chage, so would be looking at $10 or more). I know there are free ones around the country, (even higher density in Canada). When I went to Yellowstone last fall, there was several around the park, but every one was occupied, even with the park nearly empty. From my travels, I would hate to have to rely on charging an electric only car.


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## Aukai

It gets ugly if an EV catches fire too. I have not confirmed, but read let it burn, protect surroundings. 30,000 gal did not put out the EV fire that I was reading about. Maybe Jeff has some industry information.


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## Janderso

vtcnc said:


> I personally can't afford an all electric vehicle as of today. I think this option makes sense if you are in a financial sector of the world: high density population, higher salaries, short commuting distances, small-ish vehicle requirements


I agree, if you live in an urban setting and all your stops are relatively close an EV may be the answer.
If your commute was say 45 miles, you could easily go the week and charge at night. With a 250+ mile range.


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## Janderso

ErichKeane said:


> I installed a 220v charger, the charger itself was $350


These must have come down, I'm not surprised. I'm sure the demand is increasing. We bought our units about 3 years ago and they were almost $600. Good for you for doing it yourself.


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## ArmyDoc

Two of my friends have had EVs for several years now.  I talked with them about their experiences.  They basically said the same thing:  They like their cars, and would not go back to IC for their daily driver.
I spoke to one of my friends about this in more detail.  He pointed out that he has not had to buy a tank of gas for his car in something like 5 years.  He said his maintenance costs for 100,000 miles basically were the cost of tires and windshield wipers - no oil, transmission fluid etc.  He sold his first EV used, just like he would any other car, and got what he felt was a good price for it. 
He does have a 220v charger at home, but doesn't feel he really needs it.  He said he generally drives under 65 miles a day, and could easily re-charge every night with a regular charger.  If he needed to, he could drive it to the dealership or one of several other places and top it off quickly if he needed to, and several places nearby are free.  He has driven it from here (Georgia) to New York, and down to South Florida.  Charging along the route was not a problem.  He picked a spot where he wanted to stop for lunch, dinner, or to take his wife outlet shopping, and when they were finished, the car was charged.  (Granted, like me, he doesn't like to go more than 4 hours or at a stretch without a break.)  

I am concerned about the recycling of batteries.  But I am also reading cases where the batteries *are* being recycled and re-purposed.  I used to drive my cars well over a hundred thousand miles.  I did that for years, because I didn't have a choice, I couldn't afford to replace them before that. Now, I generally replace them about every 90-100,000 miles , which is about every 4 - 5 years.  As a result, my warrantee generally expires 3/4 of the way through the life of the car, and I get progressively nervous that I'm going to have a big expense the longer I keep the car.  Basically, I'd rather replace it well before It wears out, and let someone else deal with it when it wears out.  It's a win win - they get a well maintained car that has a fair amount of life left in it, at a price they can afford, and I get a new car and no headaches.

If I can get a car that I like, that performs the way I like, that I don't have to stop at the gas station for,  and that will be under warrantee for the entire time I own the car, with no gas expenses, no maintenance expenses other than tires...  I'm thinking my next car will be fully electric.


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## Janderso

Service costs are much less!
I should add, the industry says the parts and service departments need to realize they will have 70% less business in an EV world.
What do you tell all those guys and gals that are graduating from the automotive technical schools?


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## ErichKeane

Janderso said:


> I agree, if you live in an urban setting and all your stops are relatively close an EV may be the answer.
> If your commute was say 45 miles, you could easily go the week and charge at night. With a 250+ mile range.


Some of the electric cars are getting INCREDIBLY affordable these days.  Recently the Chevy Bolt was available for <$20k new, and used Leafs/Bolts are available at around $12k.  That is a pretty 'average' used car price.  In our case, the Kia was $32k all-said-and-done, which is incredibly competitive.

I think the thing that will help the most for affordabillity is getting them into the used market.  That said, the biggest hold-up is going to be people who don't park on their own property.  Access to overnight charging + an EV is a game-changer for anyone who does <200 miles a day.


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## ErichKeane

Janderso said:


> These must have come down, I'm not surprised. I'm sure the demand is increasing. We bought our units about 3 years ago and they were almost $600. Good for you for doing it yourself.


You can even get non-installed ones: https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Charger-Portable-Charging-Electric/dp/B07P9C963L/ so you just need access to a dryer outlet.  There are even smart-splitter-boxes available if necessary (though for another ~$300).

The only thing you need at that point is a dryer vent.  I looked, the Grizzle-E version we got, and it seems that we optioned it up   I think we paid about $450 for ours.  But this is the one we got, which supports just about all charging speeds: https://grizzl-e.com/product/usa/chargers-usa/grizzl-e-refurbished-2/

In our 1 month of driving, I think we've already saved about $400 over a similar ICE car.  Even more so since we were using my F250 as our 'family car', and now we drive the EV.

I WILL say as someone who wrenches on my own cars, the reduced maintenance is going to be a little sad.  Even brake jobs end up almost never needing to happen on the EVs.  In our 1 month, we still haven't worn through the anti-rust coating on the rotors.  I believe that means we do very nearly 100% engine-braking.


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## Janderso

ErichKeane said:


> I WILL say as someone who wrenches on my own cars, the reduced maintenance is going to be a little sad


If you add up the billions spent on gas/diesel powered vehicle maintenance, well it's sad alright. 
The entire industry will be changed, in a big way.


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## Janderso

ArmyDoc said:


> If I can get a car that I like, that performs the way I like, that I don't have to stop at the gas station for, and that will be under warrantee for the entire time I own the car, with no gas expenses, no maintenance expenses other than tires... I'm thinking my next car will be fully electric


There you go. One satisfied owner!!
There is no substitute for experience.


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## Cadillac STS

I have a Chevy Volt and a Cadillac ELR.  I got the Volt when I was driving a different Cadillac (My old STS) and it was taking $60 per week in gas.  With the Volt and ELR it is $6-7 every 3 weeks or so.  Plug in overnight and gas engine kicks in when the electric runs out.

The technology is no way near perfect but I feel these are steps along the way and it is good.  

We need a few huge technology breakthroughs with motors, solar and batteries to make things work the way people think it should.


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## ttabbal

I find it amusing that the loudest critics of EVs, are people who have never owned one. That said, they have a niche that is useful now and can be more in the future. I also don't think it's likely that, in the near term, they will completely take over everything. Long term has too many variables to really even make an educated guess. 

Having used L1 and L2 chargers, on my Leaf I can charge from almost dead to 80-90% on L1 over about 8 hours. L2 can fully charge in a couple of hours. L3 I can use but never have, but from what I understand it's about the same as the Tesla fast charges, so about 30min to 80%. The Leaf is a smaller battery, lower range commuter vehicle. About 80 miles total range. Good enough for short trips around town, and both my wife and I have charging available at the office. So I can charge there or at home with L2, as I installed a charger in the garage. How much that costs ends up coming down to how long of a run the electrician or you need to make and how difficult that is. I happened to have 220 available in the garage already, so I connected to that. 

For people like me, who can charge daily, it just becomes part of the I'm home ritual. Get out, plug in, forget about it. I never have to think about fueling or being stuck really, as I can make both directions of the commute without charging. Charging at work is just a convenience. This is about 90% of my driving time, so it does help. We already had to have 2 vehicles, so having one be an EV hurts nothing for us. 

Pricing is what you want it to be. You can get a used one with full battery health for about $12k. New starts around $30k it seems for most brands, even Tesla is about $35k for the Model 3. Or you can drop 100k+ on high end Tesla, BMW, etc.. The low end used gas cars is lower, but they have had a lot longer to get there. 

Recycling right now isn't much, but instead we are seeing more re-purposing. In theory, this is also better for the environment. Older packs are being rebuilt by swapping cells around and re-used for forklifts, home backup power, and even road EVs that just might not need as much range. Most people commute less than 30 miles per day, total. So even a somewhat beat up pack can be useful for a lot of people. There is some recycling infrastructure around from power tool and other smaller batteries, and it's only improving. I would like to see more movement here, but it will come with time. The materials in the packs are expensive enough to be worth the hassle and cost. Cobalt is kind of a non-issue, most battery makers are moving away from it for many reasons. But right now it makes financial sense to get as much use out of them as possible. 

Emissions... To compare fairly, you have to include the emissions in manufacturing and disposal of ICEs in their costs. Most comparisons I've seen put them about the same if you average them out. And driving EV has almost no emissions, though it's fair to say the tires and brakes wearing have to count for something. Even if you compare full life cycle including electricity generation, EV comes out ahead with the exception of a few coal heavy areas, even that depends a bit on the study as some are a bit higher or lower. However, coal is rapidly being phased out for cost reasons alone, so EV will only improve there. 

Maintenance is a complete blow out for EV. No oil changes, no DEF for diesel guys, no fuel, nearly no brake wear. One moving part, with fully sealed bearings compared to an ICE and transmission with a few hundred moving parts and a pumped oil lube system to keep changing out. The rest, tires, suspension, etc end up a wash. Remembering to fill up the washer fluid is about as much as I have to do on the EV. I've put about 30k on the Leaf, it came with about 20k. 

Hybrid... Well, I have owned two of them. A 2006 Prius, and a 2021 Highlander. Even with adding oil changes to the maintenance, the Prius was surprisingly maintenance free. I changed the coolant once too, and took the brakes apart because I was worried about them after about 100k miles. They were fine, about 90% of the pad remaining. That was about it. The Prius got about 45MPG for the whole time I had it and I did road trips and local driving with it. Great little car. Cost was about the same as other similar size cars at the time, and shortly after I got it, gas shot up to about $4.50/gal here. We're up to about $3.50 now, so I'm guessing the Highlander is going to be nice there. It's getting about 35MPG overall and no maintenance as it's only got 1500 miles on it. So I can't say anything really long term about it. In theory, hybrids have the maintenance issues of both ICE and EV, but in practice it wound up in between them for me. Overall, I liked it enough to buy another one. Sadly, the Prius got t-boned at about 30 mph, totaling the car. I walked away with minor injuries, thankfully. And a through dislike of people running red lights. 

If you need longer range, road trips with <30min breaks, or really heavy hauling, EV is probably not the best choice. Though Teslas seem to be able to handle the first two pretty well now days. And they have demoed semis, so maybe later. I have a LOT of questions about the reality of that sort of setup, but we'll see. I personally think OTR trucking is going to stay diesel for a while, but I've been wrong before. 

As for service guys, well, there are going to be a LOT of ICEs to work on short term. And everything has some units that have issues, so EV/Hybrid will need work too. There are still parts that will need replacing. If the world does go more and more EV, they will have a lot more warning than many industries did, and I hope many of them are willing to see the writing on the wall and adapt. There was a time when people were predicting that NYC was going to be buried in horse dung if things didn't change. Trains and cars made it pretty rare to see a horse in NYC these days. Or to use a more familiar example for this forum, machinists had to learn to adapt to a CNC world. Everything changes and change is often painful, but we adapt.


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## ericc

Be very careful when computing the emissions associated with EV batteries and powertrains.  Sometimes, bad assumptions can lead to skewed results.  For example, I saw one calculation that said that sulfur emissions from nickel mining were much larger for the nickel metal hydride batteries in earlier electric cars than for comparable petroleum burning cars.  This is true, but I would consider it an Internet factoid.  Here's how you arrive at that number.  Nickel recycling was pretty bad at that time, due to the fact that most nickel ended up in steel alloys that did not get recycled well.  So, one is tempted to assign a correspondingly low percentage and combine it with the dirtiest nickel smelting operations, which are in Indonesia.  If you take that number, you get more than the lifetime sulfur emissions of a fossil fuel burning car.  It was already pointed out that using recycling percentages for stainless steel does not really apply to large EV batteries, which are removed and recycled entirely by the service facility.  And, the number quoted is sulfur emissions.  Any modern fossil fuel burning car will naturally have low sulfur emissions, due to the fact that sulfur content in automobile fuel is strictly regulated.  It is a poison of catalytic converters so the refineries need to keep it low.  Note that this says nothing about CO2.  But, in a weird way, the comparison of lifetime sulfur emissions makes a great talking point, and is entirely defensible, especially in an academic setting.  Another comparison is CO2 footprint of the motor.  There isn't enough data on 100 horesepower brushless or induction motors used in EV's, so the investigators take their figures from the most readily available comparable data: large, high efficiency, stationary industrial motors.  These are huge, thousands of pounds, and they outweigh the electric vehicle.  But, they have the most closely comparable source numbers.  So, they are used in the paper for the CO2 comparison calculation.  This one may have been retracted, since there was a huge fuss.  But, in a weird way, the comparison has a little truth to it.


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## markba633csi

I'd love to have a little electric mini car to go to the store with.  For those short little trips they are great. 
It does bother me all the pollution generated by processing all the rare earth elements. I just heard that steelmaking generates almost 10% of all the greenhouse gasses in the world- didn't know that 
-M


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## macardoso

markba633csi said:


> I'd love to have a little electric mini car to go to the store with.  For those short little trips they are great.
> It does bother me all the pollution generated by processing all the rare earth elements. I just heard that steelmaking generates almost 10% of all the greenhouse gasses in the world- didn't know that
> -M


The two numbers that surprised me are 1) that the cement industry produces 8% of the global CO2 (both from the furnace to produce the cement, and later from the chemical reaction during hardening) and 2) water pumping (fresh water, waste water, geological, etc.) accounts for >20% of the world's energy consumption. We, as a species, like to move water where it is not meant to be.


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## Janderso

ttabbal and ericc,
Some very good information!!
ttabbal, you would trade in your car before the warranty is up I assume? Or you just drive them until the battery no longer serves your needs?
I don't think I would own one past the warranty period. Knowing the cost of a replacement renders the vehicle cost prohibitive to me.
I keep my vehicles a long time, 250,000 miles at least.


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## Janderso

markba633csi said:


> I'd love to have a little electric mini car to go to the store with.  For those short little trips they are great.
> It does bother me all the pollution generated by processing all the rare earth elements. I just heard that steelmaking generates almost 10% of all the greenhouse gasses in the world- didn't know that
> -M


I found this doing a quick search

The greenhouse gas of most relevance to the world *steel industry* is *carbon* dioxide (*CO2*). On average, 1.9 tonnes of *CO2* are *emitted* for every tonne of *steel produced*. According to the International Energy Agency, the iron and *steel industry* accounts for approximately 4-5% of total world *CO2* emissions.


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## markba633csi

Maybe the road warrior is not too far away- the precious petroleum juice will someday be so expensive and scarce it almost seems like personal IC vehicles will be a thing of the past- except for the very rich, living in their own antigravity city high in the clouds
-M


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## randyjaco

This brings up some interesting points
Reality is often the enemy of our greatest theories.


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## Ulma Doctor

Janderso said:


> I found this doing a quick search
> 
> The greenhouse gas of most relevance to the world *steel industry* is *carbon* dioxide (*CO2*). On average, 1.9 tonnes of *CO2* are *emitted* for every tonne of *steel produced*. According to the International Energy Agency, the iron and *steel industry* accounts for approximately 4-5% of total world *CO2* emissions.


unfortunately, statistics can be made to prove anything


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## ErichKeane

ttabbal said:


> I find it amusing that the loudest critics of EVs, are people who have never owned one.


I suspect there is a bit of a selection bias at play there... But yes, there is a TON of FUD on EVs that I found completely unfounded when we bought ours. There were great choices of cars you don't have to make consessions on vs ICE.


Janderso said:


> ttabbal and ericc,
> Some very good information!!
> ttabbal, you would trade in your car before the warranty is up I assume? Or you just drive them until the battery no longer serves your needs?
> I don't think I would own one past the warranty period. Knowing the cost of a replacement renders the vehicle cost prohibitive to me.
> I keep my vehicles a long time, 250,000 miles at least.


I strongly suspect that the replacement/refurb battery industry is going to bring that cost way down before any current new-car needs a battery. The tech is coming along quickly! Currently you can get refurbished batteries for a Prius (the whole set) for less than 1k. It's a much smaller battery, but way better than the 10k Toyota charges.

Additionally I suspect that Ford number is particularly unfair, using dealer costs are going to be biased really high compared to the aftermarket.

The current cell-cost for batteries is under $100/kWh, do that would be 6800 for a replacement battery (similar in fact to the cost of a new ICE motor). Tesla and GM have both said they can hit $60/kWh in the next 2-3 years, so that is like 4k for a new battery.

Also note "end of warranty " is NOT EOL, same as with gas engines. That 250k gas engine was only warrantied for 60k I'm guessing


----------



## Superburban

randyjaco said:


> This brings up some interesting points
> Reality is often the enemy of our greatest theories.


They do have heaters. They even have to warm up the batteries on a cold day. As far as what happens when you run out of battery, the same for gas on a winter road. 

One down fall, is the electric would need to be towed to a charging station, while the gas could be added, and the engine jumped if needed. I do not think all electric is the way to go yet. Hybrid done right can be a great boost for the gas engine, and cut out tons of idling time, and wasted gas.


----------



## randyjaco

Generating heat in an EV is going to create a major battery drain.  If you are the only EV in that snow storm traffic jam, no big deal. If all the vehicles are EVs, it is a big deal. Every vehicle will have to be towed in. What if the Tow trucks are all EVs too?
Is there any data on summer mileage vs hard winter mileage for EVs?


----------



## ttabbal

Right now, if you are the kind of person who thinks 100k miles is just getting started, an EV might not be the best option. Not that I don't think they can do it, but we just don't have much data on longer term use. It might be great, but maybe not. 

I can say that hybrids might be a good option there. There was a well known Prius taxi that had ~250k miles in some insane short time like 4 years. 

For replacement cost, particularly of the battery, I plan to use rebuilt. Perhaps individually replacing cells or modules as needed. Much like fixing up an ICE engine vs buying a brand new one. Working on the battery should be done with caution. If you have experience with high power electricity, you can likely manage the risks. It's nothing really new, just not something car mechanics are used to. You can already buy parts or whole packs online. 

Newer EVs are using heat pumps to help make heating more efficient. My Leaf is older and uses resistive heating. It works, but is less efficient. Hybrids use the coolant like normal gas cars. I just expect to have a bit lower range in the winter. 

I'm in Northern Utah, and have a couple of winters on the leaf. It hasn't been a problem. The difference isn't huge, I drop maybe 10 miles of range. Sitting in stopped traffic for a long time could be an issue. I would avoid that when possible and ration heat use until I could get clear. 

Really, everything has good and bad points. Pick your poison.  I like how they drive, and lower cost for driving. Less junk in the air is nice too. I'm not a zealot about it though. What works for me might not work for you.


----------



## Superburban

Janderso said:


> ttabbal and ericc,
> Some very good information!!
> ttabbal, you would trade in your car before the warranty is up I assume? Or you just drive them until the battery no longer serves your needs?
> I don't think I would own one past the warranty period. Knowing the cost of a replacement renders the vehicle cost prohibitive to me.
> I keep my vehicles a long time, 250,000 miles at least.


Its not the battery that worries me, as much as the electronics. switches, sensors, displays, CPU's, ect. Its hard to find a the little stuff for cars from the 90's, but at least you can rig something from a different year, or model to work. Good luck getting a replacement dash display/radio/heater & AC control, 20 years from now.

What does a replacement inverter unit, AC compressor, 12 volt module, CPU, drive motor, ect cost now? how many are used on different models, or years? I see many parts not being made by OEM, or anybody years from now.

Yea, my hybrid will be traded in before the warranty, as much as I like it. Unless the world goes super bat crazy, I will still be driving one of my 3 77 dodge trucks, the 77 RC, or the 97 van, I can fix, and even make many parts if needed. Plus I have spares to last quite awhile.




randyjaco said:


> Generating heat in an EV is going to create a major battery drain.  If you are the only EV in that snow storm traffic jam, no big deal. If all the vehicles are EVs, it is a big deal. Every vehicle will have to be towed in. What if the Tow trucks are all EVs too?
> Is there any data on summer mileage vs hard winter mileage for EVs?


The advertised range for electric only on mine, is 32 miles IIRC. In the spring and fall, I can often get over 40, even 50 before the gas engine kicks in. Winter and Summer it has been 25 to 30. Most of it depends on how many stops I make. Mine will use the gas engine to warm things up if needed.

A straight EV, can warm up and use the electric from the utility, before it is unplugged. which will help a lot.


----------



## ErichKeane

randyjaco said:


> Generating heat in an EV is going to create a major battery drain.  If you are the only EV in that snow storm traffic jam, no big deal. If all the vehicles are EVs, it is a big deal. Every vehicle will have to be towed in. What if the Tow trucks are all EVs too?
> Is there any data on summer mileage vs hard winter mileage for EVs?


My wife's car actually has a heat pump which ends up being incredibly efficient. It only costs about 10% of range at full blast.

I doubt a whole traffic jam of people are going to all kill their battery at once, same as it doesn't happen with AC in an ICE.


----------



## dirty tools

I will be to old to drive before electric vehicle can replace the type of transtation I have/like 
they are not for me


----------



## ErichKeane

Superburban said:


> Its not the battery that worries me, as much as the electronics. switches, sensors, displays, CPU's, ect. Its hard to find a the little stuff for cars from the 90's, but at least you can rig something from a different year, or model to work. Good luck getting a replacement dash display/radio/heater & AC control, 20 years from now.
> 
> What does a replacement inverter unit, AC compressor, 12 volt module, CPU, drive motor, ect cost now? how many are used on different models, or years? I see many parts not being made by OEM, or anybody years from now.
> 
> Yea, my hybrid will be traded in before the warranty, as much as I like it. Unless the world goes super bat crazy, I will still be driving one of my 3 77 dodge trucks, the 77 RC, or the 97 van, I can fix, and even make many parts if needed. Plus I have spares to last quite awhile.
> 
> 
> 
> The advertised range for electric only on mine, is 32 miles IIRC. In the spring and fall, I can often get over 40, even 50 before the gas engine kicks in. Winter and Summer it has been 25 to 30. Most of it depends on how many stops I make. Mine will use the gas engine to warm things up if needed.
> 
> A straight EV, can warm up and use the electric from the utility, before it is unplugged. which will help a lot.


The electrics are required to do the 10/20 year support for parts like all other cars. Most of those concerns apply just to new cars, not EVs.

One thing that makes EVs perhaps a better chance is that the manufacturers are all sharing a lot of those drivetrain parts.


----------



## matthewsx

For me it’s about technology.

Engineers are working hard on EV’s because the businesses they work for see this as the future. If they had a crystal ball they might be doing something different but they don’t.

Early adopters are usually people who have the money and the patience to do so. If you’re not one then you should wait and see.

investments are made by businesses with the best info they have. Just like individuals…..


----------



## mksj

I must be missing something on the cost comparison, as it appears that I do not see factored in the rising cost of electricity. So an average electric vehicle requires 30 kilowatt-hours to travel 100 miles — the same amount of electricity an average American home uses each day to run appliances, computers, lights and heating and air conditioning and lets say for comparison you have a ICE that gets 20 MPG. In high cost areas for electricity, they play around with the pricing and in some cases as your consumption goes up so does the price per kW/h. I would be paying 51 cents/kW/h for charging and home electric because I would be pushed up to the highest tier after about 5 days into the billing cycle, so the electricity cost per 100 miles would be $15, the ICE car gets 20 MPG would use 5 gallons at lets say $4/gallon or $20, so a saving of $5 per 100 miles. This also assume ideal charging at 100% efficiency, and does not account for the effect of ambient temperature on the range of an electric vehicle. Then one factors in the useful life of the current generation of batteries and replacement costs say every 8 years. One of our Tucson friends had one of the earlier honda hybrids and was on their 3rd set of batteries after about 10 years. Ouch.

I am also pessimistic about battery life and heat, when I lived in Tucson, AZ car batteries had to replaced every 2 years because of the heat. I tried some of the high end supposedly military duty types and maybe got a few more months. Add the heat and a few rapid charge cycles, let alone sitting in traffic with the tarmac in the 130+F range, I do not see an 8-10 year battery life with the current battery technology.

I do have solar, 2 years ago I doubled my capacity thinking I might go for a hybrid, but at the time the hybrids only had around 30 miles of battery range and you only got maybe 2-4 MPG more than the non-hybrid model. You are also hauling around a lot more weight. It all sounds attractive, but I question the numbers and the costs. What I also do not see outlined is the carbon footprint through the whole life cycle, from raw materials -> finished product -> use -> recycling/waste. Also where all the energy is coming from, many states already have failing electric grids with blackouts, whats going to happen when everything is electric powered and the infrastructure is not there to support it. Look at the rolling blackouts say in the bay area last year, the power was out for days mid summer.... not good.


----------



## Ulma Doctor

like Mark, i'm pessimistic as to where this breakthrough, magical, power source is going to come from.
the Energy Fairies ????

if we increase solar farming here, we replace food crop area-
we can all imagine what happens when energy, becomes more important than food....
Save us from ourselves


----------



## Superburban

ErichKeane said:


> The electrics are required to do the 10/20 year support for parts like all other cars. Most of those concerns apply just to new cars, not EVs.


Correct, but at what cost? Back in the 70's and 80's, many parts were the same on many models, and for many years, so aftermarket support is still half decent. By the 90's, many parts were changed every year, and not used between models, and it has become worse as time went on. A simple headlight switch, Dodge used the same one on almost every model from the late 60's to the late 90's. Come the 2000's, they only used them on one model, for a few years. with different ones depending on if you have fog lights, and what not. $20 for the earlier ones, and $60 or more for the later.

You are right, it is not just ev's. I would not plan on driving anything newer then 2000, beyond the warranty. I have had my 77 Ramcharger since 84, and it has been all over the country many times. If it was not so hard for my mother to get in, It would be my daily driver. But since I am tasked with taking care of her, I need something she can get into easily.



> One thing that makes EVs perhaps a better chance is that the manufacturers are all sharing a lot of those drivetrain parts.



Not many. Brakes, half shafts, and some suspension stuff.


----------



## ErichKeane

Superburban said:


> Correct, but at what cost? Back in the 70's and 80's, many parts were the same on many models, and for many years, so aftermarket support is still half decent. By the 90's, many parts were changed every year, and not used between models, and it has become worse as time went on. A simple headlight switch, Dodge used the same one on almost every model from the late 60's to the late 90's. Come the 2000's, they only used them on one model, for a few years. with different ones depending on if you have fog lights, and what not. $20 for the earlier ones, and $60 or more for the later.
> 
> You are right, it is not just ev's. I would not plan on driving anything newer then 2000, beyond the warranty. I have had my 77 Ramcharger since 84, and it has been all over the country many times. If it was not so hard for my mother to get in, It would be my daily driver. But since I am tasked with taking care of her, I need something she can get into easily.
> 
> 
> 
> Not many. Brakes, half shafts, and some suspension stuff.


The shared components are most of the electrical drivetrain. The converters and chargers and inverters are all commodity products shared amongst manufacturers. They are way less specific than a new water pump or oil pan at least.


----------



## Dhal22

Just the sound alone would make me choose an ic sports car over an electric one.


----------



## ErichKeane

Dhal22 said:


> Just the sound alone would make me choose an ic sports car over an electric one.


I agree completely! But I wouldn't buy a modern sports car with traction control and a flappy paddle gearbox anyway. Any sports car newer than mid 2000s is a nanny state crap box filled with anti-fun electric garbage.

That said, if what you are looking for is a subcompact, crossover or sedan, and do 250 miles or less in a day, an EV wins hands down. In another 2 years, add "F150 sized pickup" to that list as well.


----------



## Dhal22

ErichKeane said:


> I agree completely! But I wouldn't buy a modern sports car with traction control and a flappy paddle gearbox anyway. Any sports car newer than mid 2000s is a nanny state crap box filled with anti-fun electric garbage.
> 
> That said, if what you are looking for is a subcompact, crossover or sedan, and do 250 miles or less in a day, an EV wins hands down. In another 2 years, add "F150 sized pickup" to that list as well.



Standing in line outside a trendy restaurant years ago when I heard a snarling sports car pull up to the valet behind me.   All the ladies in line in front of me snapped their heads around to look.   Try that with a tesla.  Friend of mine has a 4 door  Maserati sedan with great sound.   I could care less how much quicker a tesla sedan is.


----------



## Reddinr

Just for the fun of it, especially if you like acceleration, go do a test drive of an electric car.  Some of us don't own one because it is practical or the best ecologically or what-have-you.  I'm a relatively old child and can't get enough of the acceleration and calm-exhilaration that can't be otherwise had in a car.  It is very strange at first.  Then you are hooked.  At least my wife and I are.

It brings joy to my heart to have a "rolling coal" truck pull up beside me at a light.   There is a handful of them around where I live.  They have the big-*ss diesel engine that could wake the dead and blacken the sky and are for some reason po'd that someone is driving an electric.  They take off like their trailer-hitch tennis-balls are on fire.  I wait for a full second to give them a sporting chance and then have them in my rear-view a few seconds later.  Yes, I'll admit to my immaturity.  I have no defense.  And, 99.9% of the time I'm a boring, careful, and courteous driver.  Before anyone pigeon-holes me, I have been a pickup owner my whole life.  An old rusty dodge stake-side that didn't really run about half the time was my first "car".  I have no argument against pickups.  Ford Lightning someday maybe?  We'll see.

Batteries are not quite  "there" but are getting better.  Fusion is not here yet.  Fusion is hard.  Research is ongoing on several fronts.  For a reference point, my present car has >250 miles range and I am not anxious.  I buy no gas and my lazy nature likes not having to stop for gas.  I would rather be back in the shop or watching TOT or something.

I understand that the horse and buggy were quite popular at one time.  From what I've read, there was quite a buzz during that transition too.  I think we are right there in history with some shaking their fist at the loud horse-scaring horseless carriages and some smiling and looking forward to even better horseless carriages.  I'm generally in the second camp.  I feel for both camps.

I say smile and enjoy the ride, whatever your ride is!


----------



## ErichKeane

Dhal22 said:


> Standing in line outside a trendy restaurant years ago when I heard a snarling sports car pull up to the valet behind me.   All the ladies in line in front of me snapped their heads around to look.   Try that with a tesla.


The one thing I've learned about owning a sports car: you think it is going to get you the attention of the ladies, but they don't know what they are looking at. Instead you chat with a bunch of dudes about car stuff.

Unless you tape $100 bills on the outside of your car, or it is a well-known expensive luxury car, girls don't care.


----------



## Superburban

ErichKeane said:


> The shared components are most of the electrical drivetrain. The converters and chargers and inverters are all commodity products shared amongst manufacturers. They are way less specific than a new water pump or oil pan at least.


Not from my research.


----------



## ErichKeane

Superburban said:


> Not from my research.


Just about all of the electronics are shared off-the-shelf parts from Korean manufacturers (or copies of them).  I worked for a while on EV/Self driving tech (when my company owned MobileEye), and they were all just the exact same boards in different clamshells.


----------



## Ulma Doctor

ErichKeane said:


> Just about all of the electronics are shared off-the-shelf parts from Korean manufacturers (or copies of them).  I worked for a while on EV/Self driving tech (when my company owned MobileEye), and they were all just the exact same boards in different clamshells.


you'd be surprised how different industries utilize the same tactics


----------



## Superburban

ErichKeane said:


> Just about all of the electronics are shared off-the-shelf parts from Korean manufacturers (or copies of them).  I worked for a while on EV/Self driving tech (when my company owned MobileEye), and they were all just the exact same boards in different clamshells.


That does not help a consumer that needs a drive module for a 2015 chevy xx, 20 years from now. The couple I looked up last year, did not even use the same module from 2018 on a 2020. everything is moving so fast now days.


----------



## ErichKeane

Superburban said:


> That does not help a consumer that needs a drive module for a 2015 chevy xx, 20 years from now. The couple I looked up last year, did not even use the same module from 2018 on a 2020. everything is moving so fast now days.


The parts tend to be interchangable.  WIres are way easier to mix/match between models than castings, so the difference between a 2015 Chevy Bolt inverter and a 2035 Nissan Whatever is a wiring harness.  

The 3rd party aftermarket for EVs is likely to be BETTER than ICE engines. The electrical bits (like a standalone ECU for an ICE) are the most interchangeable parts on a car, once the entire drivetrain is electric, that becomes even easier. 

To summarize my point, what is easier: Adapting the transmission from a 2019 Chevy Silverado to a Kia Soul, or buying a $20 wiring harness/or small circuit board to swap the important parts from 1 EV to another?  Not to mention, the electrical parts are much less error-prone than the mechanical ones.


----------



## ttabbal

For electricity cost, most higher cost areas have off peak options. You tell your car when you want it to charge and it handles that for you. I went with solar, which easily handles the load. And if your area makes EV not cost competitive, that's a choice you have to make for you. Like I said, it isn't the best choice for everyone. I think it would work for a lot of people, and some people just don't want it. That's fine too. 

Personally, I much prefer the car to be quiet. Loud engines annoy me, particularly the ones that you know are loud intentionally. 4 bangers with an open exhaust sound like a sustained fart. Now an old school blown big block, that's a different thing entirely. Even them I'd prefer to be loud at the track though. There's just no point elsewhere. Shrug. 

For more solar, people are making interesting setups that combine solar and farming. As prices drop, I hope we'll see more rooftops and parking lots get panels. Shade the cars and make power. Maybe even sell the power to charge up. 

And 30kwh/day... If only. Even in winter I'm above that. In summer with near 24 hour AC, 130kwh/day is closer. Lol. I should look at some upgrades in that area as I likely need a new HVAC in the next 5 or so years.


----------



## Cadillac

I’ve been into cars and motorcycles my whole life. Career mechanic and bought the wife a Chevy bolt in November of 19. She had a mini likes little cars and the trans wasn’t doing good so we decided it was time. I had talked to her about ev and it’s perfect for her. 30mile round trip for work and occasional shopping. The bolt has a 240 range. She plugs in once a week car is programmed to charge in off peak hours. 
 Car came with a 110 charger which gives you 4 miles per hour charging on 8amps. Switch to 12amps it goes up to 5or 6 miles per hour plugged in. I purchased the 220 charger wired myself on its own circuit and master shut off next to charger because it’s outside dealer charged 500 for charger. You get 25 miles per hour plugged in. She does leave it plugged in overnight when the temp gets below freezing because it does warm the batteries. We live in Chicago so winters suck bad. Other than that she only plugs in when needing a charge. Electric bill didnt change much at all. I can swing the bill depending on how much time I spend on the machines. 
 I think they are good cars and have a niche. This little bolt would put a lot of cars to shame and you wouldn’t even think it. Sport mode will put you in your seat and the goodyears can’t handle it. 
 She said it took her about two months to stop looking at gas prices which is a GREAT feeling and now with the circus in town gas prices ain’t getting any better for acouple years. 
 I still have a hot rod,daily drivers x2 motorcycles,dirtbikes, and a boat so petro will still be apart of my daily life but it’s one less vehicle I gotta fill up.  
 They need better battery technology that’s the strangle hold on the industry. Battery disposal is gonna be ugly. Unfortunately they don’t think of that when inventing the technology. We will see in the near future won’t we?


----------



## Superburban

ErichKeane said:


> The parts tend to be interchangable.  WIres are way easier to mix/match between models than castings, so the difference between a 2015 Chevy Bolt inverter and a 2035 Nissan Whatever is a wiring harness.
> 
> The 3rd party aftermarket for EVs is likely to be BETTER than ICE engines. The electrical bits (like a standalone ECU for an ICE) are the most interchangeable parts on a car, once the entire drivetrain is electric, that becomes even easier.
> 
> To summarize my point, what is easier: Adapting the transmission from a 2019 Chevy Silverado to a Kia Soul, or buying a $20 wiring harness/or small circuit board to swap the important parts from 1 EV to another?  Not to mention, the electrical parts are much less error-prone than the mechanical ones.


Okay.


----------



## matthewsx

Here’s some information on battery recycling from a respected source.









						Lithium-Ion Battery Recycling Finally Takes Off in North America and Europe
					

Li-Cycle, Northvolt, and Ganfeng Lithium are among those building recycling plants, spurred by environmental and supply-chain concerns




					spectrum.ieee.org
				




Yes, battery technology needs to continue to advance. But, how much of the petrol burned in cars can ever be recycled?

John


----------



## vtcnc

Janderso said:


> I found this doing a quick search
> 
> The greenhouse gas of most relevance to the world *steel industry* is *carbon* dioxide (*CO2*). On average, 1.9 tonnes of *CO2* are *emitted* for every tonne of *steel produced*. According to the International Energy Agency, the iron and *steel industry* accounts for approximately 4-5% of total world *CO2* emissions.



Maybe I’m just dense but how do you get nearly two tons of weight out one ton?

I’ve crammed 10 lbs of crap into a 5lb bag, but never had to take it out! 

Seriously though can someone point to the math on this? I’ve seen this claim of some figure or another but it just seems to defy logic. Is it the weight of the oxygen bonding with the carbon molecule?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Eddyde

vtcnc said:


> Maybe I’m just dense but how do you get nearly two tons of weight out one ton?
> 
> I’ve crammed 10 lbs of crap into a 5lb bag, but never had to take it out!
> 
> Seriously though can someone point to the math on this? I’ve seen this claim of some figure or another but it just seems to defy logic. Is it the weight of the oxygen bonding with the carbon molecule?


It is the total amount of CO2 released from the production of steel which requires an enormous amount of energy, including the energy used in the mining of ore, transportation etc. The energy source is typically directly or indirectly from burning coal and other fossil fuels.


----------



## jwmelvin

vtcnc said:


> Maybe I’m just dense but how do you get nearly two tons of weight out one ton?



That said a ton of steel produced, which means a lot more raw material if coming from ore; though I thought that was rare for steel, as most of it is recycled. But even for recycled steel, the energy required to process it involves carbon release, so I imagine it’s considering all that (as it should).


----------



## vtcnc

Eddyde said:


> It is the total amount of CO2 released from the production of steel which requires an enormous amount of energy, including the energy used in the mining of ore, transportation etc. The energy source is typically directly or indirectly from burning coal and other fossil fuels.


OK, its a supply chain output. Got it. That makes more sense. I ask because I recall a homework assignment my kids got at school about calculating a gallon of gas consumption during a road trip.


----------



## Eddyde

As far as the EV vs. ICE vehicles. It was once said by many "The automobile will never replace the horse"... 
The Internal combustion engine reigned for over a hundred years, but the fossil fuels they burn are screwing up the environment and their sources are becoming scarcer. Thus the phase out of the ICE and the move towards renewable energy has begun. We are in a period of change, a change that is inevitable.


----------



## vtcnc

Eddyde said:


> As far as the EV vs. ICE vehicles. It was once said by many "The automobile will never replace the horse"...
> The Internal combustion engine reigned for over a hundred years, but the fossil fuels they burn are screwing up the environment and their sources are becoming scarcer. Thus the phase out of the ICE and the move towards renewable energy has begun. We are in a period of change, a change that is inevitable.


I agree. However, I'm less optimistic about our ability to determine the least harmful way of deploying this new technology vs. effectively replacing old technology without a lot of grief and hand wringing by everybody.

With that said, recognizing that we have to break a few eggs to make an omelet is part of the process - i.e., it requires patience and understanding and a willingness to solve problems with each other to get to a better place.

As for myself, I'm just not ready or able to make the switch. However, I can't wait for the day where I can get in my EV and have it drive (or fly) me to work while I watch or listen to Hobby Machinist member videos on YT.


----------



## ErichKeane

vtcnc said:


> I agree. However, I'm less optimistic about our ability to determine the least harmful way of deploying this new technology vs. effectively replacing old technology without a lot of grief and hand wringing by everybody.
> 
> With that said, recognizing that we have to break a few eggs to make an omelet is part of the process - i.e., it requires patience and understanding and a willingness to solve problems with each other to get to a better place.
> 
> As for myself, I'm just not ready or able to make the switch. However, I can't wait for the day where I can get in my EV and have it drive (or fly) me to work while I watch or listen to Hobby Machinist member videos on YT.


I am curious of what makes you not ready to look at EVs next time you are looking for an new car.

Admittedly the used market is a little soft, though lease deals are really good as a result (our Niro has a $62/mo lease payment, which we plan to buy out at the end of the lease, for a total out of pocket of <32k). Additionally if you can live with a Bolt, they were sub-$20k new a few months ago.

The EVs big weakness these days are towing/hauling, and loooong range. The former is getting better thanks to the (albeit expensive) F150 Lightning coming out. The latter is getting better all the time.

The charging network is actually much better than I expected, not quite as good as the gas network, but it is getting rare to be more than 20 miles from a level 2 charger, or 50 for a level 3. 

 That said, I'm still wary of doing a long trip in the EV, which is one of a few reasons I am keeping my F250 for a while (in addition to heavy towing and hauling the pickup EVs can't yet do).


----------



## Cadillac STS

Dhal22 said:


> Just the sound alone would make me choose an ic sports car over an electric one.


Sound is nice at times but there is no way I would want a car that was really loud all the time.  I would prefer something like the newer Corvettes with an ability to adjust the muffler from inside.

Regardless of sound an electric car with same horse power as a gas powered car would beat it off the line every time.  The gas car needs time to spool up to speed and the electric can supply near 100 percent power immediately.


----------



## rabler

Sometimes EV's are too quiet.  Driving my hybrid in a parking lot or deck it is pretty typical for it to be running on electric only.  It is way too easy to sneak up on totally unaware pedestrians.


----------



## Cadillac STS

rabler said:


> Sometimes EV's are too quiet.  Driving my hybrid in a parking lot or deck it is pretty typical for it to be running on electric only.  It is way too easy to sneak up on totally unaware pedestrians.


Starting in 2016 or so there is a law mandating a noise maker in the car below 18 mph I think it is.  For that reason.  My 2015 Volt doesn't have it and my 2016 Cadillac ELR Performance Edition does.  Can't hear it inside the car but is sounds like a rumbling sound outside the car.  There were concerns from blind people not hearing the cars.


----------



## Janderso

vtcnc said:


> Maybe I’m just dense but how do you get nearly two tons of weight out one ton?


Maybe if you spell it tonne it all works out??


----------



## matthewsx

Eddyde said:


> As far as the EV vs. ICE vehicles. It was once said by many "The automobile will never replace the horse"...
> The Internal combustion engine reigned for over a hundred years, but the fossil fuels they burn are screwing up the environment and their sources are becoming scarcer. Thus the phase out of the ICE and the move towards renewable energy has begun. We are in a period of change, a change that is inevitable.


I’m never giving up my gasoline powered smartphone though


----------



## Janderso

I watched a video this morning on Toyota's research into hydrogen fuel. It is very similar to gasoline in terms of combustion with one exception, the hydrogen is highly pressurized. 
The beauty is the C02 emissions is 99% less than a gas engine. The main exhaust component is water vapor.


----------



## C-Bag

I am not a bleeding edge adopter of anything. I’ve been watching EV since the late 70’s and while the premise was good the execution was pi$$ poor. But it was early and trying to adapt off the shelf. Lead acid batteries etc. ICE has always struck me as a stupid attachment to historical engineering. The worst kind, that patches instead of truly evolving. Relying on dirty fossil byproducts, destroying the environment when it could have gone to alcohol and synthetic oil and truly designing cars to be refurbished from the git go. Instead it was double down on conspicuous consumption and planned obsolescence where you have to buy new periodically because it was engineered to die coupled with generations of consumer propaganda. When you look back the car industry went about as far away from Henry Ford’s original idea of cheap reliable easily maintained TRANSPORTATION to a status symbol to project status and sexual prowess. WTH? Ford was an early driver of renewables and was exploring body panels and interior parts made from hemp. The model T could run almost anything. To say they lost their way is an understatement to me.

We bought a Volt in ‘16. My first American car in 43yrs of driving. It has been the most reliable trouble free and inexpensive to run car I’ve ever had. That is my main criteria for a car. My wife drives it to her work. Last I looked in its electronic logs over its life it’s run 89% on electric. Lifetime gas mileage is 250+. It’s a plug in hybrid that goes around 50mi electric. Then runs as a standard hybrid on gas getting 45mpg. We bought solar because the Volt pushed our usage up to where it made it worth doing. They gave us a free charger in the deal and also replaced our horrible waiting to blow main service panel for no extra charge. We pay $600 a year for electric and are 7mi away from Diablo Canyon nuke plant. 

Not too long after we bought it my SO decided to go see her friend in Volcano through the valley summer. She got passed Paso Robles and had been on the gas engine for about 40min when the car told her there was a cooling problem and reduced her speed(!). As it got worse and the car told her to pull over and it shut down. She used the OnStar to call the Chevy dealer in Paso and they sent a tow truck. Turned out there was a loose hose connection that was leaking and all they had to do was tighten the clamp and fill the system and it’s been perfect ever since.

Yeah, I prefer simple. Less black boxes the better. But do you know how many people have come in the shop pi$$ed because their car “idiot” light didn’t tell them they had no coolant or oil? When I said there is no light because you have full gauges that made them even madder. They think oil pressure is how much oil is in the crankcase. They don’t know when the temp gauge is in the red that means it’s hot. My SO is better for me explaining this stuff to her, but she(and I) were grateful her built in robot was taking care of biz that day as she was out in the badlands with no cell service and would have tried to drive until it quit. And it would have.


----------



## jbolt

I am in the pessimistic camp. 

I am not against EV's in any way. I do prefer the hybrid over all electric. In 2017 I bought a used 2004 Prius with 200k for $3500. I have since put on another 120k. There are some things I really like about the car and some I loathe but it still gets 45+ mpg and requires minimal maintenance and it is still running on the original battery.  

 With the rush to everything all electric I do feel we are forcing the cart before the horse. 

I am moving to a state that passed into law the elimination of electricity from coal fired power plants by 2035 with no real plan to make up the loss in generation capacity. Currently in my area 80% of electrical generation comes from coal. There is also a push to remove several dams which will further reduce the available energy provided by hydro. What's left, wind? 

There already have been brown and blackouts in recent years from lack of supply. Add in safety shutoffs during fire season. Adding hundreds of thousands of vehicles to the grid ahead of the infrastructure seems like a recipe for catastrophe. 

The home we are moving to is all electric. No power = no lights, heat or water. Two winters ago my tenant was out of power for 7 days. They stuck it out for 4 days before they had to leave because the inside was 40 deg. I now have a 12kw dual fuel generator for emergencies. I will also be replacing our pellet stove with a wood burning stove. Seems kind of self defeating to run a fossil fuel generator with zero emission controls to charge my EV when there is no power.

I also wonder how this will affect other industries that rely heavily of diesel powered equipment?

I have heard that Washington state may be building a molten salt reactor which is really interesting nuclear technology. I hope they are successful and are able to change the perception of nuclear generation.


----------



## Janderso

C-Bag said:


> C-Bag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ford was an early driver of renewables and was exploring body panels and interior parts made from hemp. The model T could run almost anything. To say they lost their way is an understatement to me.
Click to expand...

C-bag,
I always enjoy your posts.
The comment about Henry Ford, renewables and Ford lost their way is a profound statement to me.
I wonder if the market would have responded to Ford products if they maintained the original vision over the years.
I remember selling Ford remanufactured starters, alternators, water pumps, oil pumps etc in the 70's. His vision was to offer remanufactured parts to reuse and offer savings to the consumer.
He was a forward thinking old fellow.
You may remember the old parts books, you could buy every component to rebuild a part. Pins, diaphrams, impellers, bushings, bearings etc.
Today, everything is a new assembly. The only thing we sell that is remanufactured are engines and transmissions.


----------



## Cadillac STS

C-Bag said:


> Not too long after we bought it my SO decided to go see her friend in Volcano through the valley summer. She got passed Paso Robles and had been on the gas engine for about 40min when the car told her there was a cooling problem and reduced her speed(!). As it got worse and the car told her to pull over and it shut down. She used the OnStar to call the Chevy dealer in Paso and they sent a tow truck. Turned out there was a loose hose connection that was leaking and all they had to do was tighten the clamp and fill the system and it’s been perfect ever since.



You probably know this but the Volt has a "Mountain Mode."  and it keeps the battery charged to allow the electric motor to assist the gas engine up hills.









						Conquering Steep Mountain Passes in a Chevy Volt
					

Saddle road (Route 200) on the Big Island must be one of the most grueling mountain passes in the United States, and this coming from a guy who grew up in Colorado, a state with some epic climbs. D…




					www.bigislandev.org


----------



## ttabbal

For hydrogen, people have been fussing with it for decades. It has obvious advantages, but the downsides are less obvious. The biggest one is that it is so small, almost nothing can contain it long term. It also doesn't liquefy under pressure, so you need insane pressure to store much of it, which makes it want to leak more. Or cryogenics, like they use for rockets. On the up side, leaking H2 isn't a big issue, it floats away and is not toxic. The flammability range is narrow enough that you are unlikely to have that problem either. 

The other downside for "clean tech" people is that most of it is produced by steam reforming natural gas. The CO2 is generally released, though it could be captured. It doesn't have to be made this way, it's just easier and cheaper. It's certainly a much easier problem to solve than storage. Though I suspect if you ran the efficiency calculations, you would likely do as well to just burn the natural gas directly. Improvements to the process could allow better results there. 

One interesting idea for solar storage is to make hydrogen via electrolysis, and mix it in with the natural gas for later generation from standard gas power plants. The efficiency isn't great, but it doesn't really need to be and it would provide much more storage than batteries can at grid scale. 

Salt reactors are pretty old tech. I think they have some promise, but the stigma for the "N" word is pretty strong. I wish them well, I think that tech needs to be part of the conversation, but I'm not convinced that price or politics will work out for it.


----------



## Cadillac STS

There was a TV commercial years back with one of the energy companies getting a large truck and trailer, semi sized and put a hydrogen plant in the trailer.  The hydrogen ran the tractor trailer.  Seems to me this could work if you kept working on making the hydrogen generator smaller and smaller and allow some cargo.  Maybe some day small enough to run a passenger car.


----------



## C-Bag

jbolt said:


> I have heard that Washington state may be building a molten salt reactor which is really interesting nuclear technology. I hope they are successful and are able to change the perception of nuclear generation.


^^THIS is another example of evolution that was forestalled and deep sixed by status quo and greed. The LFTR(liquid fluoride thorium reactor) was designed and run at Oak Ridge in ‘69 by the same guy who designed the heavy and light water reactors. This is what we should have been doing ever since then. But once again greed and stupidity and downright evil deep sixed it. Want to see something that will either make your head explode or your blood boil.


----------



## C-Bag

Janderso said:


> C-bag,
> I always enjoy your posts.
> The comment about Henry Ford, renewables and Ford lost their way is a profound statement to me.
> I wonder if the market would have responded to Ford products if they maintained the original vision over the years.
> I remember selling Ford remanufactured starters, alternators, water pumps, oil pumps etc in the 70's. His vision was to offer remanufactured parts to reuse and offer savings to the consumer.
> He was a forward thinking old fellow.
> You may remember the old parts books, you could buy every component to rebuild a part. Pins, diaphrams, impellers, bushings, bearings etc.
> Today, everything is a new assembly. The only thing we sell that is remanufactured are engines and transmissions.


I really appreciate you saying that Jeff. I always feel like I'm going against the tide. 

My girl friend had a '70 Maverick with a C4 and 200 straight six. It was the first American car I was close to. It was a wonder. It was so incredibly cheap and reliable it was kinda insane. Brake shoe whole sets for $6? A water pump for $18? She broke the alt belt in the middle of the summer in Merced when it was 105f and drove it home. It took an hour to even cool down enough to see what was up. Put a belt and some water and off it went but it started using oil, had cooked the middle two cyl rings. We were both in college and no $$ and I went to my old high school auto shop teacher and he let me rebuild it during class and got a deal on a ring and bearing kit for less than $200. It went for another 6yrs and 100K and she sold it to a highschool girl. 10yrs later I'm working as a mech in a Shell station and I see that thing bounce in and there's woman with a kid in a car seat in the back and she wants me to put a quart of oil in it and check the coolant. I pop the hood, it's not been touched since I did my ring and bearing and she says she's on her was from Merced to San Diego! Just like when we had it, it got between 27 and 30mpg. Literally they don't make 'em like that anymore.


----------



## Janderso

C-Bag said:


> My girl friend had a '70 Maverick with a C4 and 200 straight six


There's an old friend.
The 200 was the 300's little brother. They were full of torque.
I had a neighbor who bought his 1970 E-100 brand new. It had a three on the tree shift and the 300 six.
I know he drove it over 500,000 miles and finally put a reman in it.
I use to get a second gear scratch with my 1967 Cougar with the C4.


----------



## martik777

C-Bag said:


> We bought a Volt in ‘16. My first American car in 43yrs of driving. It has been the most reliable trouble free and inexpensive to run car I’ve ever had. That is my main criteria for a car. My wife drives it to her work. Last I looked in its electronic logs over its life it’s run 89% on electric. Lifetime gas mileage is 250+.



How do you access the "electronic logs"? I used to use https://www.voltstats.net/ but it is no longer supported.


----------



## martik777

Canadian Volt owner for 3.2 years, saving ~ $300/month in gas (gas was $7/gal (4.5L)) when we purchased
Almost 14,000 incentives brought the price down to a comparable ICE car
Installed my own 240V EVSE - purchased used Clipper creek model with warranty for $200
99% EV mode for our driving habits (ICE used maybe 6 times / year  < 500 miles)
No battery degradation so far
No maintenance costs so far - will need to change oil within 2 years
No detectable brake rotor wear (use regen to stop, brakes pressed last 3-4 mph) 
Not sure if we'll keep it after the 8 year warranty as any repair will be very expensive but many have been trouble free for well over 200k
I think the Bolt EV is the most affordable EV with the 2022 price reduction. It is 32k USD and 38k CAD


----------



## mattthemuppet2

there's a lot of work going into reusing/ recycling EV batteries. People are aware of the growing tide of batteries needing to be recycled in 8-10 years and are working hard to figure out ways of either reusing the batteries (power walls, utility scale storage etc) or recycling them, which is pretty energy intensive and nasty at present. One of the biggest challenges is safely getting the batteries open and the cells out. By all accounts Tesla is one of the worst, using an almost impossible to remove epoxy to hold the cells together. Most like the UK and EU will move towards some kind of standardised battery assembly/ disassembly process to make life easier for the recycling centers.


----------



## C-Bag

Cadillac STS said:


> You probably know this but the Volt has a "Mountain Mode."  and it keeps the battery charged to allow the electric motor to assist the gas engine up hills.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conquering Steep Mountain Passes in a Chevy Volt
> 
> 
> Saddle road (Route 200) on the Big Island must be one of the most grueling mountain passes in the United States, and this coming from a guy who grew up in Colorado, a state with some epic climbs. D…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bigislandev.org


I really don’t. That car is so deep and I only drive it on the weekends. I’m always finding out something new and they just did a software update and somehow we got on a page on the display we’d never seen before. Yes, I admit it, I’m a Luddite I only use a cell because I have to and 99% of what it can do I have no clue.


----------



## savarin

I would like an electric car but our govt is making them very expensive (dont get me started here)
I have 5.5Kw of solar on my roof and an electric car makes sense particularly if I can use the battery in it as storage for the excess solar that the energy company only pays a pittance for.
The cheapest house battery is $10,000+
Here we have around 320 days of sunshine a year so a small genny for top ups if the dark skies last too long.
It would go a long way to get me off the grid.


----------



## Eddyde

Janderso said:


> Service costs are much less!
> I should add, the industry says the parts and service departments need to realize they will have 70% less business in an EV world.
> What do you tell all those guys and gals that are graduating from the automotive technical schools?


Good point and it reaches far beyond the EV and renewable energy industry. Many jobs are being lost or dumbed down due to automation and simplification of processes. On the other hand, I believe we shouldn't suppress technological progress and not enjoy the advantages they offer. So what do we do? I'm not sure but IMHO a major overhaul of the way we work, might have to happen. A 4 day work week was proposed back in the 1970's perhaps its time to look at that again?


----------



## C-Bag

Our band got asked to play at a party close to Hornitos in the CA foothills. It was for the organization called Dontcrush. They were trying to stop the automakers from repossessing electric cars in the late 90’s. CA had required that auto manufacturers make and offer at least one zero emission car so Honda, Toyota, Ford and GM all made electric cars that you could only lease. When administration changed in DC they were able to get the law revoked and they took back the cars even though EVERYBODY wanted to buy them. Only Toyota sold some RAV4’s. All others were repossessed and ultimately crushed.


----------



## Winegrower

I have decided I will not buy another IC car.


----------



## Ulma Doctor

this comment is not directed at any specific Green Car owner....


a point i don't believe that has been brought up is resistance by Big Oil
it is in Oil companies best interests to keep the population addicted to their product, they are not going to go away quietly
when the oil companies start buying up electric battery patents and starting battery manufacturing companies,
that's when i'll consider an electric toy

my job prevents me from getting a toy, i could be asked to drive 600 miles, tomorrow
your toy, can't do that
my truck or car can go to the remotest of locations, hundreds of miles away (currently around 400 miles per tank) -the toy can't without making day trips of everything- i could not live my life at 200 miles at a time, stop 4 hours and go another 200 miles
seems completely asinine to me

the only system that seems worthy to me is a Hybrid
a small IC engine (or micro nuclear reactor) turning an electric generator or alternator, using the electricity produced to drive traction motors


----------



## jbolt

Well if the grand plan goes sideways I'm thinkin "gasifier".


----------



## C-Bag

Ulma Doctor said:


> this comment is not directed at any specific Green Car owner....
> 
> 
> a point i don't believe that has been brought up is resistance by Big Oil
> it is in Oil companies best interests to keep the population addicted to their product, they are not going to go away quietly
> when the oil companies start buying up electric battery patents and starting battery manufacturing companies,
> that's when i'll consider an electric toy
> 
> my job prevents me from getting a toy, i could be asked to drive 600 miles, tomorrow
> your toy, can't do that
> my truck or car can go to the remotest of locations, hundreds of miles away (currently around 400 miles per tank) -the toy can't without making day trips of everything- i could not live my life at 200 miles at a time, stop 4 hours and go another 200 miles
> seems completely asinine to me
> 
> the only system that seems worthy to me is a Hybrid
> a small IC engine (or micro nuclear reactor) turning an electric generator or alternator, using the electricity produced to drive traction motors


Hey, it’s all good Doc. I don’t think anybody here is saying anybody has to buy or do anything. There was another thread several months ago and the OP was ultimately negative to electric so some of us felt on the defensive. I thought this was going to be that way too, but seems things have changed.

I identify with your range anxiety and that’s one reason I looked into the Volt. We never have to worry about plugging in if we don’t want to and that’s mighty handy. But our second car is my ‘15 Nissan Frontier. Just can’t get along without a PU.

I have always been majorly concerned about the combined interests of Big Oil the auto industry and the tyranny of the investor class. This bunch who doesn’t “invest” because they have any concerns for anything except their quarterly profits. This shortsighted view hates change. They seek “rent” from everybody on anything possible for as much and as long as possible. Often the only way the stranglehold is broken is through social upheaval because they have all the power and won’t allow change.


----------



## Ulma Doctor

while in my youth, i worked on material handling equipment
forklifts, scissor lifts, walkie stackers, electric pallet jacks, small battery operated carts and their charging systems
the industrial equipment i worked on broke down- 
trucks, cars, ev's, hybrids will all FAIL- eventually
here's my experience ...
IC engine work was quick and resulted in uptimes in the order of hours
when a sit down electric or stand up type forklift performs an unintended smoke show, the end result is replacement of the equipment due to the exorbitant cost of labor to replace the components, wire it in and facilitate operation.
the daily maintenance was rarely{never} performed by the operators, they wouldn't even check to see if chargers were even operating

i fully expect the same occurrences in new age devices, maybe not with the same rate of failure as past design.
i do know that all but a rare handful of folks, destroy everything they get their hands on- the new cars will have to put up with that dilemma 

it is in the manufacturers best interest to have you purchase more vehicles when an old one is DOA.
to that end, repair will be made very expensive, slow, and insures the manufacturer will do the repairs as the parts and software will be proprietary
nothin' wrong with that from the manufacturers capitalistic standpoint.
the public at large may have a very different opinion of monopolistic tactics and price fixing (read: gouging), but unknowingly got sucked into a trap by buying into the trend (or maybe social experiment???? )


----------



## Shootymacshootface

I read this a few weeks ago.








						1 in 5 electric vehicle owners in California switched back to gas because charging their cars is a hassle, research shows
					

Roughly 20% of electric vehicle owners in California replaced their cars with gas ones, a recent study shows.




					www.businessinsider.com
				



I think that there are very few people that an electric car would be an ideal primary source of transportation. I could see it for a second car or if you have a reserved parking spot at your job with a charging station.
I am hoping for a breakthrough with hydrogen extraction technology. Getting fuel directly from water. We could have hydrogen generators in our homes first. Then, when it could be small enough to do it on board that would be the new normal. The shipping industry would benefit tremendously. Ships could extract fuel right from the ocean. I don't think we are ready to drive 200mi and wait for over an hour to keep going when you can spend just 5 minutes at a gas pump and then go another 300-400 miles.
This would be me, except the generator would be running in the trunk while I am driving down the road.


Great thread Jeff!


----------



## RandyWilson

Multiple times I have had to tell the pink-green haired gen-whatev that the 10 year old hybrid they just bought to be all economical and green and stuff needs $xxxx (sometimes $xxxxx) worth of batteries. It always ends in tears.


----------



## Janderso

mattthemuppet2 said:


> People are aware of the growing tide of batteries needing to be recycled in 8-10 years and are working hard to figure out ways of either reusing the batteries (power walls, utility scale storage etc) or recycling them,


That's great!!
There are going to be lots of these batteries/vehicles coming in after their useable life has been diminished.


----------



## Janderso

C-Bag said:


> CA had required that auto manufacturers make and offer at least one zero emission car so Honda, Toyota, Ford and GM all made electric cars that you could only lease.


I remember the story of the guy with his electric Ford Ranger. He didn't want to give it back, he loved it. A legal battle was called for. He won.
I wonder why the manufacturer wanted them back?
 Cradle to grave control of the dangerous high voltage battery maybe?


----------



## C-Bag

Janderso said:


> I remember the story of the guy with his electric Ford Ranger. He didn't want to give it back, he loved it. A legal battle was called for. He won.
> I wonder why the manufacturer wanted them back?
> Cradle to grave control of the dangerous high voltage battery maybe?


I forgot to mention the peoples place the gig was at had one of those Ford Rangers. I think it was a ‘97? It had over 100kmi and had only tires. They said it had lithium batteries and had never given any probs. What I think is the most astounding part was I never heard anything about all of this until this party.


----------



## ErichKeane

Janderso said:


> I remember the story of the guy with his electric Ford Ranger. He didn't want to give it back, he loved it. A legal battle was called for. He won.
> I wonder why the manufacturer wanted them back?
> Cradle to grave control of the dangerous high voltage battery maybe?


My understanding (at least with the EV1) is that they were maintenance nightmares that the manufacturers were already losing money on thanks to a really immature design, and the government rule requiring parts-availability for 10 years would have caused them to take a giant bath on it.


----------



## C-Bag

ErichKeane said:


> My understanding (at least with the EV1) is that they were maintenance nightmares that the manufacturers were already losing money on thanks to a really immature design, and the government rule requiring parts-availability for 10 years would have caused them to take a giant bath on it.


I believe this is covered in this movie or the second movie. The problems I heard was with the batteries and once they replaced them a lot of problems were solved.


----------



## Janderso

I'm reading Automotive news this morning.

'Mazda speeds up EV introduction efforts" -13 hybrid and plug-in models expected by 2025"
"Lordstown Motors-a start-up electric vehicle company has plans to build electric work trucks at a closed down GM plant in Ohio"
"GM, Ford locked in EV spending race"
"Swedish auto start-up Polestar is deciding to produce their new EV line-up at Ridgeville, South Carolina at the Volvo's plant".

Jaguar Land Rover will begin testing a hydrogen fuel cell electric prototype based on the Land Rover Defender.

There must be half a dozen new companies planning to build EV's here in the US, due to tariffs.

I'm telling you, the industry is in flux.


----------



## Janderso

ErichKeane said:


> the government rule requiring parts-availability for 10 years


Erich, 
I've heard that before. As a guy in the business who started in the parts dept., manufacturers don't carry parts for ten years unless they can make money by selling the parts.
Electric modules, seat covers, mirrors, interior trim and anything that is low volume go obsolete within 5 years.
In my experience, as a long time parts manager/parts and service director.


----------



## ErichKeane

Janderso said:


> I've heard that before. As a guy in the business who started in the parts dept., manufacturers don't carry parts for ten years unless they can make money by selling the parts.
> Electric modules, seat covers, mirrors, interior trim and anything that is low volume go obsolete within 5 years.
> In my experience, as a long time parts manager/parts and service director.


I think you're right!  I researched it a bit over the last ~5 minutes and see a bunch of articles mentioning it is a myth.  Thanks for pointing that out!


----------



## Superburban

Janderso said:


> I've heard that before. As a guy in the business who started in the parts dept., manufacturers don't carry parts for ten years unless they can make money by selling the parts.
> Electric modules, seat covers, mirrors, interior trim and anything that is low volume go obsolete within 5 years.
> In my experience, as a long time parts manager/parts and service director.


Either that, or they get outrageously expensive. The same way the govt contractors treat parts they do not want to stock.


----------



## Janderso

Superburban said:


> Either that, or they get outrageously expensive


Right you are sir.
I remember an anti-skid electric/hydraulic valve for a full size Bronco was>$2,700 back in the 90's. One of those items that make you question, is it worth it?


----------



## C-Bag

Shootymacshootface said:


> I read this a few weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 in 5 electric vehicle owners in California switched back to gas because charging their cars is a hassle, research shows
> 
> 
> Roughly 20% of electric vehicle owners in California replaced their cars with gas ones, a recent study shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that there are very few people that an electric car would be an ideal primary source of transportation. I could see it for a second car or if you have a reserved parking spot at your job with a charging station.
> I am hoping for a breakthrough with hydrogen extraction technology. Getting fuel directly from water. We could have hydrogen generators in our homes first. Then, when it could be small enough to do it on board that would be the new normal. The shipping industry would benefit tremendously. Ships could extract fuel right from the ocean. I don't think we are ready to drive 200mi and wait for over an hour to keep going when you can spend just 5 minutes at a gas pump and then go another 300-400 miles.
> This would be me, except the generator would be running in the trunk while I am driving down the road.
> View attachment 369925
> 
> Great thread Jeff!


Do you get that Big Oil won’t let that happen? The plans for hydrogen is for it to be extracted from petroleum NOT water. 

A great read is Alcohol is a Gas. He goes over all the angles because he’s trying to get us to go that direction for over decades. First thing is it’s simple mod to any late model car and most already can run on it. It puts out only CO2 and water. And because the various plants you can make alcohol from absorb CO2 when growing it’s a zero CO2 gain. His best idea was to use the many abandoned oil platforms in the Gulf to grow seaweed and use it to make alcohol while it eats the millions of tons of ag fertilizer that washes down the Mississippi. Making it the biggest dead zone in the world. 

One time he was testing running jet engines on alcohol for the DOD and they were using smog test machine to see what was coming out of the exhaust. He thought the machine was broken because the needles didn’t move. He moved it to the intake and the needles went up. What was coming out of the exhaust was cleaner than the LA air going in.


Remember when there was that crazy commodity spike and they went through the roof and all the sudden that phrase “no food for fuel” was being echoed by every talking head? That started by the API(American Petroleum Institute) and about that time it was discovered they were manipulating the commodity futures. Of course nothing was done to them but commoditys went back down to normal.


----------



## Shootymacshootface

C-Bag said:


> Do you get that Big Oil won’t let that happen? The plans for hydrogen is for it to be extracted from petroleum NOT water.


Absolutely I do. I also plan on riding the oil wave as long as possible. There's not much you or I can do about politics or big business. Things won't change much until they can't find oil anymore.
Here is a list of things I have that love to use petroleum.
2007 Chevy Aveo
2002 Acura tl
1997 GMC Suburban 6.5L turbo diesel
1978 Corvette
1980 Chris Craft with (2) 260hp Mercruisers
1980 Hydrostream with a 2 stroke carborated V6
I also heat my 2600sf house with oil.

Looking at this list makes me want to buy stocks in oil.

Not thread hijacking. This is all relevant to the topic of transportation.


----------



## C-Bag

Shootymacshootface said:


> Looking at this list makes me want to buy stocks in oil.
> 
> Not thread hijacking. This is all relevant to the topic of transportation.


You of course are free to do as you wish. I was not free to do as I wished because your favorite form of energy with the help of D.C. destroyed all competition while also polluting the air, earth and water. Even when forced by whacky California to make electric cars they would NOT sell them, only lease. Biding their time until there was a regime change so they could deep six the tech. Even though everybody would have bought them. How is that supposed freedom? How is that actually capitalism or even real business sense? Smells of dictators to me.

My kids were born in the 80’s, in the decade where all you had to do was look up to see what pollution was doing. Mountains I could clearly see every day since a child disappeared into a brown haze. When coming down from a backpacking trip even though it was a bright day you could look across the San Joaquin valley and it was a sea of brown haze. Being in clear air I’d come back down and smell the dinge what I call cow butt air. I was working in a Shell station with all my certifications as a smog tech too. And saw first hand how badly Big Auto did when trying to clean up their act. Notice you don’t see too many 80’s American cars around? They would have had to be 100x’s better to only be awful. But bringing my kids into this s##*storm made me realize I didn’t want to maintain this mess. So I bailed on auto’s and went to packing machinery where I had an influence on the stupid designs and could actually fix things instead swaping black boxes.

It was a total fluke I spent decades being a mech. All I ever wanted to do was go through life and leave the place like I found it for my kids. Who would have known there would be industries dedicated to denying they were destroying the joint even though their internal research proved they were culpable?

I see my Volt as a practical stepping stone along with the solar array as a step in the right direction as I see it.

There is an ancient Taoist teaching that says “want to change the world, change yourself first.”


----------



## ErichKeane

So I saw this and thought it was interesting: 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/o78mgw

Someone drove LA to Washington DC in an electric car (the same kind my wife has!) and it is a pretty good account for what long-distance travel looks like in one of these.  She seems to have a bit of a seat-of-the-pants approach to it, so she often stops to charge for only a few minutes at a time to get a few tens-of-percent to make it to his next point.  She skipped overnight charging a few times, which would have made her charging story easier.  I suspect with a little planning, she could have reduced his total time by a bit.

Overall, shedid the trip in 6 days instead of his normal 4 (from a previous ICE trip), and seemed to have a reasonable itinerary.  Some interesting tidbits:
- (for one of the evenings in Kansas): Barely slept that night bercause i started getting some SERIOUS range anxiety.
-Each Electrify America station that I encountered had between 4-8 stations. Most had 4
-I only had to wait for a charger once during the entire trip. It was at a single charge station in Las Vegas
-The highest number of vehicles I encountered at a station was two in addition to me. This was in Frisco, Colorado
-My fiancé started from Vegas on the same day I did and arrived around 2pm on the same day, so I arrived about 10 hours later than he did.
-I hadn’t shopped in a Walmart in many years but situating the EVs with Walmart was frankly really smart. They are ubiquitous and often contain food (either groceries or subway) as well as Wifi, a pharmacy, restrooms, etc. Many but not all were 24 hour wal marts.
-Obviously, I hope that the density of DC Fast chargers will increase, especially in central Illinois and the west. It would be nice if somebody would pair with Loves gas station since they are super common out west. A higher density of chargers would mean fewer stops to charge and more choices of where to stop.

And her conclusion:
I barely planned this trip at all, made a significant last-minute route change, and everything was fine. I'd say it went better than I expected, partially because weather was so nice. Walmart got boring. I wouldn't mind doing it again, especially as the EV charging network continues to mature. The trip would be more efficient with more DC fast stations.


----------



## jbolt

More often then not when we take road trips it is always in areas off the beaten path where the most interesting parts of the world are. Planning sometimes may involve hotel reservations but we also camp a lot. We like to make it up as we go with no set destinations. On more than a few occasions I have had anxiety over just finding fuel.


----------



## ErichKeane

jbolt said:


> More often then not when we take road trips it is always in areas off the beaten path where the most interesting parts of the world are. Planning sometimes may involve hotel reservations but we also camp a lot. We like to make it up as we go with no set destinations. On more than a few occasions I have had anxiety over just finding fuel.


I never have for gas, but I definitely have for Diesel.  It seems that in some areas that don't expect that many visitors all the stations are gas-only.  Presumably truckers either can drive through in a single run, or can do Pacific Pride/etc.


----------



## Shootymacshootface




----------



## Aaron_W

C-Bag said:


> Do you get that Big Oil won’t let that happen? The plans for hydrogen is for it to be extracted from petroleum NOT water.
> 
> A great read is Alcohol is a Gas. He goes over all the angles because he’s trying to get us to go that direction for over decades. First thing is it’s simple mod to any late model car and most already can run on it. It puts out only CO2 and water. And because the various plants you can make alcohol from absorb CO2 when growing it’s a zero CO2 gain. His best idea was to use the many abandoned oil platforms in the Gulf to grow seaweed and use it to make alcohol while it eats the millions of tons of ag fertilizer that washes down the Mississippi. Making it the biggest dead zone in the world.
> 
> One time he was testing running jet engines on alcohol for the DOD and they were using smog test machine to see what was coming out of the exhaust. He thought the machine was broken because the needles didn’t move. He moved it to the intake and the needles went up. What was coming out of the exhaust was cleaner than the LA air going in.
> 
> 
> Remember when there was that crazy commodity spike and they went through the roof and all the sudden that phrase “no food for fuel” was being echoed by every talking head? That started by the API(American Petroleum Institute) and about that time it was discovered they were manipulating the commodity futures. Of course nothing was done to them but commoditys went back down to normal.



Brazil went to an ethanol / gasoline blend in 1976, initially a 10% blend and currently 27%. They have had cars running on pure ethanol since 2003. These cars can also run on the ethanol / gasoline blended fuels which eliminates the issue of finding the right fuel.

Brazil uses sugar cane to produce ethanol which is far more suitable than corn. Corn to ethanol is actually a net negative energy process requiring more energy to produce that it offsets. Corn is actually known to be one of the worst options to make ethanol from, but the corn lobby is the USA large and powerful.

Sugar cane on the other hand is a net positive, creating more energy than it uses to grow and convert to ethanol. Brazil has developed its use very efficiently, and have even developed uses for the "waste" material.


I like electric cars as one of several options, but don't see the switch to all electric as sustainable. Hybrids seem to be the best near term option as they have most of the benefits of conventional cars and electric. They can also be built to run on any number of fuels. They use diesel hybrid buses in many of the National Parks. They have the power of diesel but they don't have the usual belch of black smoke diesel is known for as the electric motors allow the engine to run at a constant speed at its most efficient rpm.


----------



## Aaron_W

Also to add, electric vehicles have helped to drive a great improvement in battery technology which will benefit many industries in the long term, even if electric cars are not the answer. Tesla's Power Wall as backup power or paired with solar as one example.


----------



## koenbro

Janderso said:


> *The financial aspect of EV ownership*.
> EV's come with a 115AC charger. It will not fully charge the battery overnight assuming it was down to a low state of charge. A high capacity charger is available but must (in most cases) be installed by an electrician. We installed two at the dealership at a cost of $1,100 each (charger and labor).
> Know the costs!
> 
> 
> 
> *Range anxiety*
> You planned your trip, you know there is a high capacity charging station 175 miles into your journey. Hopefully when you get there the chargers are available. Another thing about Lithium-Ion batteries, they don't like heat. Hot climates and level 3 fast charging stations can diminish battery lifespan. It has been determined that regular use of level 3 high rate chargers will cause the batteries to fail (will not hold 70% of the original capacity) prematurely.



I bought my wife a Tesla model 3 extended range  (3 motors) with no additional upgrades a little over a year ago. The purchase price is quite a bit LOWER than what the typical American buyer ends up paying for a new pick-up truck -- so there is no affordability issue really.

For a basic model, it is a spectacular car. It accelerates better than my Porsche 911 4S, and it handles like a mid-engined sports car (the center of mass is low and central as the batteries are in the floor). Needs no maintenance. The interior is quiet, and the sound system is good. One feels this car was thought through from a blank slate, not just shoving a new powerplant unto a conventional ICE platform.

CHARGING. She charges it about once a week with a 240 V/30A charger in the garage, put in by an electrician for a few hundred dollars (nothing close to your example where other variables come into play perhaps) and it does charge overnight easily. I can't imagine anyone getting a Tesla sticking to 120V/15A charging -- provided they park in their own garage or have the ability to add an outlet. The suggestion that this is some hidden cost one has to carefully consider is risible.

RANGE ANXIETY. There is no range anxiety when you drive a Tesla. The on-board computer will direct you how to time your charges en route. Real-life experience. Of course we are not taking it to forrest roads in the boonies, but 99% of mega pick-ups are also never taken off paved roads. For the typical long range travel, the Tesla stations do the job. Not sure about other brands.

Again, the Tesla is an absolutely phenomenal car.


----------



## ttabbal

GM leaves owner owing $12K after Bolt EV battery fire last year
					

A previous owner of a Chevy Bolt EV is still making car payments a year after he lost his car due to a GM-confirmed battery fire. This is his story.




					electrek.co
				




I like EVs. I wouldn't be so happy about them if I had this sort of problem.


----------



## KyleG

koenbro said:


> Again, the Tesla is an absolutely phenomenal car.


Respectfully, I'd like to disagree. Not for the sake of being disagreeable; just to offer another perspective. 

I agree they drive well, but in my opinion they've way over-computerized the car. I really hate the touchscreen and the gizmos like pop-out door handles. My uncle has a Model S, and an OTA update had a bug that opened the passenger rear door every time you put the car in park. Took Tesla a month to patch it. A door latch needs a linkage, not a brain. I'd really like an electric car, not an electronic car.

RE Cost: I don't think comparing their entry-level sedan to a pickup is really fair. They just plain are more expensive, even over the lifetime of ownership. Hopefully, that will change in the near future as battery costs continue to fall and the big automakers roll out serious offerings. To someone like me, the added cost is worth it, but not everyone is willing to foot the extra expense.

RE Charging: Charging is tough for a renter like me. It's on the renter to install a charger IF the landlord is willing to go along with it. At my current house, I have to park in the driveway, which would necessitate outdoor EVSE and a long cord to the car. A lot of vehicles live their lives without a garage, and charging those cars is a tough nut to crack for the EV industry.

RE Range anxiety: IMO, range anxiety happens during the shopping process, not behind the wheel. For someone who has access to a second vehicle for long trips, the ideal EV range is 40 miles. Conversely, I have 750 miles of range in my pickup, and I've used it. The impact of having to plan trips around charging shouldn't be underestimated.

I worked for a company developing EVSE during college, and I'm an EV believer. I just want to offer my perspective. I'm someone who would really like to drive an EV, but for whom they just aren't a practical option.


----------



## Larry$

ErichKeane said:


> Any sports car newer than mid 2000s is a nanny state crap box filled with anti-fun electric garbage.


If you want  fun car to drive with the best gear box, try the MX5. There is a racing class for it also.


----------



## dirty tools

And I thought I was slow
I have a 1981 GMC C7000 4X4 top speed 58 gets 11 mpg with 25,900 lbs load,with 2 tanks, 50 gallons each. Stops was every 3-4 hours (been old)
Riverside Ca to Fort Lauderdale 4 days


----------



## jwmay

KyleG said:


> I don't think comparing their entry-level sedan to a pickup is really fair. They just plain are more expensive, even over the lifetime of ownership.


 
"they" being the pickup or the electric sedan?

Nothing to contribute here. I think bicycles are the answer. But I'm just trying to keep up with what everyone is saying.


----------



## Janderso

vtcnc said:


> Maybe I’m just dense but how do you get nearly two tons of weight out one ton?
> 
> I’ve crammed 10 lbs of crap into a 5lb bag, but never had to take it out!
> 
> Seriously though can someone point to the math on this? I’ve seen this claim of some figure or another but it just seems to defy logic. Is it the weight of the oxygen bonding with the carbon molecule?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ha, I love it.
The math, I’m not yet convinced an EV in the long run is wort it.
A modern IC is darn near emission free.
We’ll see how it plays out.


----------



## C-Bag

Many great points here, +&-. For me the bottom line is IC is close to emission free for CO and HC but there are a bunch of gobbly **** hexans and other volatile chemicals that the smog machines don’t test for that is no bueno for kaka de toro going into the air causing cancer and lung disease. Alcohol doesn’t have that. It’s renewable and burns clean. But oh no, say we need to cut our dependence on foreign oil. We tree huggers hear cut our dependence on oil, yay! The petro elite hear “yeah, drill baby drill every park and preserve they can get their grubby hands on.“ Guess who won?

 But IC should have been a bridge to better tech, not squatting like an obese billion pound gorilla squashing under its massive tush, all change. It has been an unholy alliance from when Rockefeller didn’t know what to do with the garbage called gasoline he had left over from refining oil. So he dumped in the Hudson River at night. Then he and the burgeoning car manufacturers made a pact with the devil oil and went after public transportation and destroyed it. Making cars, “personal transportation” and basing the whole economy on it. Damn the planet, profits first! Creative destruction at its most psychopathic. I don’t know how Musk managed to get as far as he and Tesla have. Talk about David and Goliath.

I guess I’m for bicycles too.


----------



## martik777

Some numbers to consider:

Avg car still emits 6 tons of CO2 per year plus "other stuff"

It takes 5 kwh to refine 1 gallon of gas which is equivalent to 20miles range on an avg EV

35% of city driving is regenerative so instead of wearing rotors and pads you are generating KWH's when you slow down

All our electricity is hydro sourced (Canada, BC west coast)

Gasoline cost almost $8/gallon here !!!!


----------



## FOMOGO

No one love's his dinosaur burning toy's more than me, but have you taken a look out the window lately. Things are changing fast, and not for the better. I think we have the ability to, if not stop global warming, to at least lessen it's inevitable advance, and consequences. Unfortunately the people running things in this country, and many others, are at best, not up to the job, and at worst, actively fighting any meaningful change, in devotion to the almighty dollar. Same old sh*t, different day. I'm going to go read about old school machining, and cleanse my mind now. Mike


----------



## sycle1

I guess when we view skewed statistics every thing will be Skewed.
I feel ripped off by the whole battery power tools fiasco. 
None of them seem to be any good.
Cars running on batteries..... Bwahahaha a very mean joke perpetrated on a very gullible public.


----------



## martik777

sycle1 said:


> I guess when we view skewed statistics every thing will be Skewed.
> I feel ripped off by the whole battery power tools fiasco.
> None of them seem to be any good.
> Cars running on batteries..... Bwahahaha a very mean joke perpetrated on a very gullible public.


I've been an EV owner for 3.5 years and could not be happier. I do kinda miss changing oil, rebuilding starters and alternators  and doing the brakes lol.  Do not miss visiting the gas station. One thing that concerns me greatly is a breakdown out of warranty.

Battery powered tools for me have been revolutionary (for home/shop use) since Lith-ion became mainstream


----------



## FOMOGO

I've had excellent service from most of my battery powered tools. Porter cable, and Makita have held up well, and I'd have a hard time going back to pluging something in every time I needed to put in a screw, or remove a nut or bolt. the 1/2' drive Milwaukee I got recently produces 1400flbs of torque, and if it's not welded on, it's coming off. My air impacts rarely get used anymore. It would be nice if the batteries were more environmentally friendly, but battery tech is moving fast, and I think in the coming years we will see some pretty amazing stuff. Mike



sycle1 said:


> I feel ripped off by the whole battery power tools fiasco.
> None of them seem to be any good.


----------



## sycle1

My non appreciation of the battery tools is proabably more about the quality of the tools themselves, most of them develop chuck wobble very quickly nowadays under very small, light work loads, where as drills of the old era would take a severe hiding day in day out and still not have chuck wobble after years of work.
Saddly all the new battery powered stuff will mostly be made in China where they don't seem to care how much plastic they make and how much wildlife and trees they burn to make it.
In the enviromental sense I think the over use of plastic in these new cars and batteries will be the death of us all. how it can be greener still has me scratching my head, plastic is poison and it permeates at a molecular level.


----------



## RandyWilson

I recently purchased an electric push mower. A higher end one.  It sucks. Low power, flimsy, and sluggish response. So disappointed in it that I don't even use it; relying on the (gas) tractor and weed whacker. So, when electric cars can match my 20 year old daily driver, wake me up. I tain't going backwards.


----------



## MrCrankyface

Everything has it's own use.
I love my battery powered mower but I wouldn't try to clear a field with it.
I love my battery powered scooter but I wouldn't try drive across the country with it. 

In general I think things are just underbuilt these days, electric or not.
Most modern cars have tons more problems after just a few years than my 25 year old Golf does, that's just how it is in modern society where the biggest priority is making everything as cheap as possible to stay competetive.
This is a problem that goes far beyond just the automotive industry.

One real problem with electric vehicles is IMHO the cost, currently it's both cheaper in purchase and maintenance to just buy an older car that pollutes way more, than it is to get an electric vehicle that's so expensive that the interest kills you.
Another is our current battery technologies, one is dirtier than the other and as far as I know, all of the popular ones require rare materials that can only be sourced from a few countries.
It doesn't help that these countries generally have awful working conditions.
A third issue just top of mind is how will you charge all these vehicles once it gets widespread?
Here in southern sweden we occassionally have to import coal power from denmark, so suddenly you're charging your "clean" car with "dirty" energy. 

It's a complicated issue with many different subproblems.


----------



## Eddyde

RandyWilson said:


> I recently purchased an electric push mower. A higher end one.  It sucks. Low power, flimsy, and sluggish response. So disappointed in it that I don't even use it; relying on the (gas) tractor and weed whacker. So, when electric cars can match my 20 year old daily driver, wake me up. I tain't going backwards.











						How Teslas can accelerate so quickly
					

Tesla blends a special mix of engineering, technology, and software to make the Model S Performance the fastest-accelerating production car.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## RandyWilson

Acceleration is only a small part of vehicle performance. You will note no one EVER quotes slalom times for a Tesla. Overweight wallowing pigs when you attempt to make them turn.


----------



## koenbro

Look up Nurburgring Tesla. The ‘ring is quite a bit of slalom. Don’t remember seeing the Ring number for the Ford F-150 btw. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## savarin

Cant seem to find any buggy whip manufacturers around here these days


----------



## dirty tools

Take away gas and Diesel engines 
how are you going to charge it
people don’t wan nuclear, coal, or anyother type of electrical generators
no Mater what charging system you use there is still polluting


----------



## ErichKeane

dirty tools said:


> Take away gas and Diesel engines
> how are you going to charge it
> people don’t wan nuclear, coal, or anyother type of electrical generators
> no Mater what charging system you use there is still polluting


Around us it is wind and hydro, which is pretty darn great environmentally (comparatively at least).  There are some solar plants that some companies are planning in the south-west that could power the whole country pretty easily.

Even so, a powerplant, no matter what it uses to power itself, is going to be significantly better than the equivalent in in gas/diesel cars.  This is definitely a "don't let perfect be the enemy of better" situation.


----------



## martik777

ErichKeane said:


> Around us it is wind and hydro, which is pretty darn great environmentally (comparatively at least).  There are some solar plants that some companies are planning in the south-west that could power the whole country pretty easily.
> 
> Even so, a powerplant, no matter what it uses to power itself, is going to be significantly better than the equivalent in in gas/diesel cars.  This is definitely a "don't let perfect be the enemy of better" situation.



Refining 1 gal of gas require 5-7KWH of electricity which provides about 25 miles of range in an EV so it's pretty much a wash. 

For me to drive 1500kms/month I use $22 worth of electricity or about 220KWH. That equals about 5 days of A/C


----------



## ErichKeane

martik777 said:


> Refining 1 gal of gas require 5-7KWH of electricity which provides about 25 miles of range in an EV so it's pretty much a wash.
> 
> For me to drive 1500kms/month I use $22 worth of electricity or about 220KWH. That equals about 5 days of A/C


Refining gas is just one of the many costs associated with gas. Refining vs driving: yes those are equal. But now the gas doesn't have to be extracted, distributed,shipped or pumped.


----------



## RandyWilson

koenbro said:


> Look up Nurburgring Tesla. The ‘ring is quite a bit of slalom. Don’t remember seeing the Ring number for the Ford F-150 btw.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro




You are missing the point. Can electric cars be fast? Yes, for short spurts. Can they be nimble. No. Can they respond in a timely manner to driver commands? You would think so, but practice shows no. Are they fun to drive? Emphatically NO. Every one is a wallowing pig that is quite unpredictable. When you romp on the pedal you never know exactly how much power the computers decide you can have. Or (even worse) when. This is especially true of hybrids.  Same goes for the steering and brakes. Maybe it will... eventually.... turn. Or stop.

Believe me, over the course of my recently ended career, I have driven about every form of vehicle out there. My attitude has always been life is too short to drive a borinig car. And certainly too short to tolerate an ill behaved one. The video I posted was not chosen at random. I don't know why you brought an F150 into this.


----------



## RandyWilson

Okay, I looked up Tesla at ring as requested. Specifically the Model S, since that is their flagship and the one I have direct experience driving. For reference, my summer daily shows 8:32 and my winter daily (same car but with a solid roof) is 8:22. That's stock. Both of mine have minor mods. So on to the review of the Model S at the ring.


"""
For Holland, this was his first time driving a pure electric vehicle at the Ring and he was mostly impressed:

"Yes, it was heavy. Yes, it had almost no mechanical grip. And yes, the steering was as numb as my jaw after a trip to the dentist. However, considering that the Model S is a brand new car, from a car company that didn't exist 10 years ago, using technology that had (at the time of founding of the company) never been successfully mass produced on any large scale, I am suitably impressed."

"So what was the lap like from the drivers seat? Um... quiet? Really quiet, actually."

As for the actual lap and the reduced-power, Holland explains:

"The lap itself was around 10 minutes Bridge to Gantry (in heavy traffic) but unfortunately the car went into a reduced power mode about 3 minutes in due to excess battery heat (at least, that's my guess)."

"""












						Electric Vehicle News and Analysis | InsideEVs
					

Read the latest EV news from the U.S. and around the globe including new model reveals, business news, industry insights, latest technology, and more.




					insideevs.com
				





Over and out


----------



## ErichKeane

RandyWilson said:


> Okay, I looked up Tesla at ring as requested. Specifically the Model S, since that is their flagship and the one I have direct experience driving. For reference, my summer daily shows 8:32 and my winter daily (same car but with a solid roof) is 8:22. That's stock. Both of mine have minor mods. So on to the review of the Model S at the ring.
> 
> 
> """
> For Holland, this was his first time driving a pure electric vehicle at the Ring and he was mostly impressed:
> 
> "Yes, it was heavy. Yes, it had almost no mechanical grip. And yes, the steering was as numb as my jaw after a trip to the dentist. However, considering that the Model S is a brand new car, from a car company that didn't exist 10 years ago, using technology that had (at the time of founding of the company) never been successfully mass produced on any large scale, I am suitably impressed."
> 
> "So what was the lap like from the drivers seat? Um... quiet? Really quiet, actually."
> 
> As for the actual lap and the reduced-power, Holland explains:
> 
> "The lap itself was around 10 minutes Bridge to Gantry (in heavy traffic) but unfortunately the car went into a reduced power mode about 3 minutes in due to excess battery heat (at least, that's my guess)."
> 
> """
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Electric Vehicle News and Analysis | InsideEVs
> 
> 
> Read the latest EV news from the U.S. and around the globe including new model reveals, business news, industry insights, latest technology, and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insideevs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over and out


I don't know when that happened, but I think Tesla has improved battery cooling a bunch in the last few years, so I wouldn't be surprised if that isn't as big of a deal anymore.  Even my wife's Kia EV has a battery cooler and heater to prevent that.

From my perspective, sports cars are likely the hardest thing for the EV market to break into, but a vast majority of driving happens in mid-sized SUVs and F150 pickup truck-type-vehicles.  So they have plenty of vehicles to replace before they have to take on my sports car.  That said, Tesla's "all go-no-turn" design is basically how muscle cars work, and how just about every American "go fast" car works... So perhaps it is better to compare it to a Charger/Challenger instead of a Miata or 370z.

That said, sports-car manufacturers have been making it easier for about 20 years, the 'fun' factor of cars has been going way downhill since the 90s.  Ever since flappy-paddle gearboxes, traction control, emissions crap, and Gen-2 ABS, sports cars got boring. I'll take my 90 Nissan Z car or a 98 VIper over whatever Ferrari came out recently.  Sure, the Ferrari might be fancy and fast, but they aren't FUN anymore.  The closest we get these days is the Miata/MX5 stuff, but even those are gutless and full of nanny state garbage anyway.

So I guess the point of my rant is:  Sports cars are probably some of the LAST things to go EV, but thats ok because the market for them is comparatively small, and if they keep up their current progress, they'll be way easier to beat by then.


----------



## Cadillac

Their are high end EV sports cars out there and they are stupid fast. Just not in reach of the everyday man.
  Ive seen videos of a Tesla blowin the doors off a hellcat at the strip. Give me 500* hp with a manual and Ive in heaven


----------



## Cadillac STS

There is Formula E which are Indy car style race cars.  









						ABB FIA Formula E World Championship
					

ABB FIA Formula E World Championship




					www.fiaformulae.com


----------



## martik777

ErichKeane said:


> Refining gas is just one of the many costs associated with gas. Refining vs driving: yes those are equal. But now the gas doesn't have to be extracted, distributed,shipped or pumped.


or taxed   Here in Vancouver, BC tax is $2.43/gal and a gal costs ~ $7.60 CAD  (imperial gallon =4.54 L vs 3.78L for a US gal)

Gas tax is the USA (per gal) is 18cents federal and ranges from 14cents in Alaska to 67cents in CA, averaging 33cents per state


----------



## Dhal22

Millions and millions of cars driving 24/7 around the world,  most are ice.  Electric has a long way to go.


----------



## C-Bag

In 1901 there were millions and millions of horses driving 24/7 around the world. Gas had a long way to go, but look how quickly it caused wars and destroyed the climate.


----------



## savarin

look how many horse poop cleaners were put out of work when cars came along


----------



## Aaron_W

C-Bag said:


> In 1901 there were millions and millions of horses driving 24/7 around the world. Gas had a long way to go, but look how quickly it caused wars and destroyed the climate.


 
There were some cars in the 1890s, but mostly seen as a novelty, or play thing for the rich so 1900 is a fair starting point as 1900-1905 is where the automobile started to be taken seriously. It still took about 40 years for the automobile to relegate the horse to a mostly recreational form of transport. Horse drawn carts were still competitive for short (under 5 miles) delivery routes with frequent stops (home delivery of milk, ice, coal etc) and maintained a place on the farm for certain tasks into the 1940s. 

If we assume 2000 as the start of the modern electric vehicle as a competitor to pure IC powered cars (EV1 1996, Toyota Prius 1997, Honda Insight 1999) then we are only 20 years down the development path. Of course IC engine vehicles will be harder to fully replace as there will not be the leap of capability from other forms of vehicle power. Looking at the rapid increase of capability and interest in hybrids and electric it won't surprise me if in another 20 years alternate power vehicles are dominating the highways and pure IC is reserved for specialty and "enthusiast" vehicles. although I expect hybrids will be the winner, not pure electric.

I read a very interesting book recently, Where have all the horses gone. The automobile did not replace the horse nearly as quickly as many assume. Horses still provided a huge amount of the available transportation during WW2. Mules in particular still remain a popular form of transportation over rough terrain 113 years after Henry Ford introduced his Model T. 

Where have all the horses gone

I also find the horse vs car comparison interesting, because electric cars are doing the best in the part of the market that the horse held onto the longest, short haul, with frequent stops, which in the modern world is made up of commuters and local delivery.


----------



## C-Bag

Aaron_W said:


> I also find the horse vs car comparison interesting, because electric cars are doing the best in the part of the market that the horse held onto the longest, short haul, with frequent stops, which in the modern world is made up of commuters and local delivery.


This is exactly where our Chevy Volt shines. By the onboard stats it’s 90% on electric and that 50mi range which seems like nothing fits 90% of our driving. Going over 2,500mi+ on a 8gal tank of gas is hard to believe. The car is not perfect, nothing is in this world. But it covers a lot of the use we do. I’m not a sports car guy, I’m a point A to point B guy for the least cost and least maintenance. Yeah the idea it’s basically a big old black box is scary. But all the maintenance like changing the oil has been straight forward and easy.

Like I’ve said before, what I’ve been working towards is converting tadpole trike to electric assist and put an aluminum body on it to reduce drag and get me out of the elements. Mostly intense sun and rain. For around town errands and short distance the idea I can get some exercise and get around cheap really appeals on so many levels.


----------



## Superburban

C-Bag said:


> I’m not a sports car guy,


Neither am I. I have driven many cars and trucks over the years. Except for the lack of engine noise, and the dash board display, I cannot say there is any difference in handling between an electric, and a regular sedan/minivan, crossover. 

I had a 2017 gas Pacifica that I traded in for a 2020 hybrid Pacifica. If anything it handles better. Has more power, do not have the 3 gear changes before you are through the intersection, and much quieter.


----------



## C-Bag

Superburban said:


> Has more power, do not have the 3 gear changes before you are through the intersection, and much quieter.


Until we got the 2005 MBZ CLK320 I never knew how much I loved a quiet car. It had no wind noise even with the top down. Have no idea how much tech went into that but cars that make noise seem cheap to me now. Every body has their focus but comfort for me is not just ride and seats.

 I’ve always hated mushy rides and bench seats and those cars were the only ones that were quiet. So not until the Benz and now the Volt did I get a ride with feedback, seats that make sense, great acceleration for passing and quiet. The Volt unfortunately doesn’t have the great wind noise traits the Benz had. Most times I can’t leave the windows down because it will start pumping like your head will implode. That is the major fault with the Volt.


----------



## martik777

C-Bag said:


> This is exactly where our Chevy Volt shines. By the onboard stats it’s 90% on electric and that 50mi range which seems like nothing fits 90% of our driving. Going over 2,500mi+ on a 8gal tank of gas is hard to believe. The car is not perfect, nothing is in this world. But it covers a lot of the use we do. I’m not a sports car guy, I’m a point A to point B guy for the least cost and least maintenance. Yeah the idea it’s basically a big old black box is scary. But all the maintenance like changing the oil has been straight forward and easy.
> 
> Like I’ve said before, what I’ve been working towards is converting tadpole trike to electric assist and put an aluminum body on it to reduce drag and get me out of the elements. Mostly intense sun and rain. For around town errands and short distance the idea I can get some exercise and get around cheap really appeals on so many levels.


Last time I filled my Volt's tank was Feb/2020, about 15k ago. Sadly the car forced me to use the remaining gas after 1 year as it is programmed to do. Since then I never keep more than a gallon in the tank. To us, it is an EV 99% of the time. We still get 112kms range after 3.5 years.


----------



## sycle1

I guess the real question is it Sustainable and is it Recycleable?
Most of these Batteries and cars have a high pecentage of plastic made by oil and you guessed it petrochemical companies.
So even if they stopped making petrol guzzlers tomorrow, the oil giants ain't gunna loose a cent.
I'll believe in it when I see the 18 wheeler haulers using battery powered motors for the long hauls. hehe


----------



## Cadillac

Talked with a relative this weekend good old grad parties. He works at a govrn. Lab that has the excited pixies that shoot around in a deep underground looped tunnel. Was picking his brain about where we’re at with solid state batteries and at first he gave me that look with a slight chuckle. Then acted kind of dumb about it. Later I went and asked him one on one and he said we’re about two yrs out. From what I hear Japan will be producing solid state batteries by next month. But it’s been said before with no results.


----------



## C-Bag

Cadillac said:


> Talked with a relative this weekend good old grad parties. He works at a govrn. Lab that has the excited pixies that shoot around in a deep underground looped tunnel. Was picking his brain about where we’re at with solid state batteries and at first he gave me that look with a slight chuckle. Then acted kind of dumb about it. Later I went and asked him one on one and he said we’re about two yrs out. From what I hear Japan will be producing solid state batteries by next month. But it’s been said before with no results.


Yup, we’ve heard it before. And who knows what happens. One of my teachers was privy to a revolutionary battery tech that was bought by one of the tech giants back in the 80’s and deep sixed it. Never came to market. Somebody wanted us to keep buying batteries.

If Nicola Tesla who‘s 40 patents gave us the 20th century would have had his way we would have been using using the tech he was working on at on Long Island in 1901. The big tower he called Wardenclyffe Tower would have excited the ionosphere to transmit power all over the world. All you would have needed was the receiver in your electric car instead of a battery. Of course his benefactor JP Morgan cut him when he found out what he really wanted to do and there was no way to get rent off it. One lightening strike is something like a terra watt of power.


----------



## Shootymacshootface

The wife and I drove from Central Massachusetts to Scranton PA and back this past Saturday morning in our 2002 Acura TL. We left at 6am and returned home around 2:30 pm. That's almost a 400 mile round trip in 8 1/2 hrs. We did it on 1 tank of fuel. We topped it off before we left and filled it at a gas station less than 10 miles from the one we topped off at because the fuel light came on (I'm sure we could have made it home).
Mrs. Shooty and I (she shoots as well) were discussing electric cars on our trip. What about power shortages? The west is already struggling with electricity. They are now planning, and not just discussing shutting down two of the biggest and most important hydroelectric plants in the west. How will you guys charge your cars with power rationing and rolling blackouts? It took about 8 minutes to get our car ready to drive another 400 miles.

Here is an old family photo of me and the Mrs. doing some yard work.


----------



## C-Bag

Struggling with electricity? Best to turn off Faux news there. What we are struggling with is gas is up to $5+ a gallon. Good thing we got us a solar array on the roof and the Volt does 90% of our driving on electric and if we do have to go out of town we can use the engine once the battery runs out. We are averaging over 250+mpg, no problem.


----------



## Shootymacshootface

C-Bag said:


> Struggling with electricity? Best to turn off Faux news there. What we are struggling with is gas is up to $5+ a gallon. Good thing we got us a solar array on the roof and the Volt does 90% of our driving on electric and if we do have to go out of town we can use the engine once the battery runs out. We are averaging over 250+mpg, no problem.


I just paid $2.85 gal to fill the car. Why is it so much more where you are. Europe is closer to me than you.


----------



## martik777

Shootymacshootface said:


> The wife and I drove from Central Massachusetts to Scranton PA and back this past Saturday morning in our 2002 Acura TL. We left at 6am and returned home around 2:30 pm. That's almost a 400 mile round trip in 8 1/2 hrs. We did it on 1 tank of fuel. We topped it off before we left and filled it at a gas station less than 10 miles from the one we topped off at because the fuel light came on (I'm sure we could have made it home).
> Mrs. Shooty and I (she shoots as well) were discussing electric cars on our trip. What about power shortages? The west is already struggling with electricity. They are now planning, and not just discussing shutting down two of the biggest and most important hydroelectric plants in the west. How will you guys charge your cars with power rationing and rolling blackouts? It took about 8 minutes to get our car ready to drive another 400 miles.
> 
> Here is an old family photo of me and the Mrs. doing some yard work.
> View attachment 374096



This is where PHEV's like the Volt really shine. 420 miles range with the ICE and  ~55 miles in 100% EV mode and you can make ~10 PHEV's with the same battery materials as ONE BEV.  The average  driver will rarely need to use any gasoline. Sadly GM discontinued it but there are still a few others available.
I had a 2000 Acura CL which cost me over $100 to fill up. I can go the same distance for $6 with the Volt. Yes, gas in Western Canada is  over $7/gal !


----------



## jbolt

Shootymacshootface said:


> I just paid $2.85 gal to fill the car. Why is it so much more where you are. Europe is closer to me than you.


Let's see. We pay a combined $0.69 state & fed tax on every gallon. Each summer and fall the refineries have to adjust their blend which always seems to increase the cost regardless if one is less costly to make or not. In conjunction with those "blend" changes it also seems there is some unwritten requirement that half the refineries must close for maintenance causing less supply which in turn raises costs. At least that's what they keep telling us. I also believe it is mandated by the state that at least one refinery has to have some kind of malfunction there by limiting even more supply. 

Oh and every five or so years our political class says we need even MORE taxes on gas to pay for fixing those pesky roads they never fixed with the previous gas taxes that were promised to ONLY be for fixing roads AND somehow they keep getting passed (I don't know anyone who has ever voted for more gas taxes...hmmm). 

The only way roads get fixed here is if they can add toll lanes for the wealthy who can afford them while us mere peasants sit for hours in endless traffic listening to the news talk about the billions of transportation dollars wasted spent on the visionary 18th century technology of low speed high speed train to nowhere which still has not been built 10 years later even though our fabulous current governor said it was a boondoggle but was going to build it anyway cause it is a good investment in our future for those who commute between Merced and Bakersfield! No offence to either. 

Guess what will happen as more EV vehicles replace petrol vehicles and the gas tax revenue shrinks? Get ready for more toll lanes and mandated smart license plates to track your mileage and sell your data!

Then there is the subject of what it costs to register a vehicle in this fine state.

Yay California!


----------



## Superburban

jbolt said:


> Then there is the subject of what it costs to register a vehicle in this fine state.
> 
> Yay California!


Oh, Do not get me started.


----------



## savarin

gas costs $5.68 a US gallon here. 
edit, $4.18 US dollars


----------



## martik777

In USD we pay $1.63/US gal in taxes and our gas is 5.17/us gal.


----------



## Shootymacshootface

It looks like most of the entire US east coast has it pretty good with the cost of petrol compared to you guys. 
If I was faced with $5+ per gallon I would definitely be considering a gas/electric hybrid for my daily.


----------



## stupoty

savarin said:


> gas costs $5.68 a US gallon here.
> edit, $4.18 US dollars


in brit bong land it's about £1.35 a liter = £6.13 for us gal , = $8.53 !!!! 

Stu


----------



## savarin

Hi Stu, I remember when a gallon of two stroke cost 3 shillings and 9 pence, the same as a single record and a packet of three durex.
Que for a song - Those were the days my friends we thought they"d never end


----------



## Eddyde

Shootymacshootface said:


> It looks like most of the entire US east coast has it pretty good with the cost of petrol compared to you guys.
> If I was faced with $5+ per gallon I would definitely be considering a gas/electric hybrid for my daily.


It's only a matter of time!


----------



## jbolt

Shootymacshootface said:


> It looks like most of the entire US east coast has it pretty good with the cost of petrol compared to you guys.
> If I was faced with $5+ per gallon I would definitely be considering a gas/electric hybrid for my daily.


Just remember the real goal has always been to get away from personal transportation altogether other than bicycles. Fossil fuel to EV is just one step. I expect once enough drivers have moved to EV the subsidies will vanish, free courtesy charging will go away, paid charging will be over taxed, and we will pay by the mile for the privilege of driving on roads we have already paid for. Not to mention what will happen to the cost of electricity as we move away from cheap reliable sources.


----------



## C-Bag

jbolt said:


> Just remember the real goal has always been to get away from personal transportation altogether other than bicycles. Fossil fuel to EV is just one step. I expect once enough drivers have moved to EV the subsidies will vanish, free courtesy charging will go away, paid charging will be over taxed, and we will pay by the mile for the privilege of driving on roads we have already paid for. Not to mention what will happen to the cost of electricity as we move away from cheap reliable sources.


I have no idea where you get your info. The car co's have always had the strangle hold on transportation and decimated public transportation in the 20's and 30's. Buying up the trolley lines in all the major cities and then scrapping them. The only thing that saved them from prosecution was WWll.

I charge my Volt at home off my solar array. And if things keep moving ahead with large storage like the iron air batteries we could see some real change in the way electricity is made and distributed. The problem of storage of excess capacity at night has always been the major problem. Several years ago CA was quietly giving excess capacity to AZ and other close states. I think due to folks like myself who were installing solar.

Our major stumbling block here in CA ain't the gubment like some folks like to repeat, it's this stupid monopoly that has been allowed to exist between PG&E and SoCal Edison. Those who think public traded co's should be in the biz of public utilities are just delusional. Then blame da gubment for high prices when it's just greed and mismanagement of the rent seeking class. PG&E buys my excess during the day when my meter runs backwards at wholesale and sells it back to me at night at the discounted off peak. They also make me pay a min of $600 a year to be tied to the grid even though they are taking and selling my power for full retail on peak time. So this makes everybody not put in excess solar. Other utilities in other states pay you for your generation above your use. NOT PG&E or Edison. CA is not a wonderland, but neither is anyplace else from what I can see.

Oh, and I don't get why nobody is dinging where the real blame should go, to big oil. When Covid hit the price of oil went through the floor. Have those fluctuations EVER shown up at the pump. NO.


----------



## Superburban

They may be private companies, but they are still controlled by the PUC's. Cannot blame the company for wanting to make money for their stockholders, blame the PUC.


----------



## Shotgun

This is why I've always thought that the government should own the infrastructure.  Period.  We don't let the trucking companies own the roads. If the government owns the "marketplace" then anyone can bring their goods to the market.  The problem you have in California and now Texas is not a problem of regulation or greedy rent seekers.  Good regulations have their place, and we're all greedy rent seekers.  The problem is bad regulations that leave a few of the greedy rent seekers in charge of the marketplace, who then limit the freedom of everyone else to participate.

Think about it.  I can't build out my yard with solar, and then sell it to my next door neighbor.  Imagine if our roads were run like the electric grid.  I could grow an acre of corn, but I wouldn't be able to sell it to the local grocery store.  I'd have to sell it to a trucking company, who'd get to decide how much they'd pay me for it.

Now, imagine if our electric grids were run like the road, instead.  The government would maintain the lines, and anyone could start a company to generate electricity, selling to whoever they could find to buy it.  The government would just make sure that safety rules are followed.  You'd have to connect with specific safety equipment.  You could put power on the grid only when you have a buyer arranged.  Stuff like that.  The same would apply to communication companies, or any other endeavor where the power of imminent domain is used to build infrastructure. 

Regardless, once EVs get a solid share of the market, taxes will follow them. Last I heard, EV owners in NC already have to pay a $1,000/yr tax to cover their share of road building and maintenance.  Asphalt doesn't lay itself, and it has to be there whatever pushes the car along.  IC owners are paying their share every time they stop for gas.  I think it is about $1/gal for taxes here in NC.  Putting the tax in gas kind of assured that the people who drive the most pay the most for roads.  I predict at some point that the mileage will be taken at the yearly inspection and you'll get a bill then.


----------



## Superburban

Shotgun said:


> Now, imagine if our electric grids were run like the road, instead.  The government would maintain the lines, and anyone could start a company to generate electricity, selling to whoever they could find to buy it.  The government would just make sure that safety rules are followed.  You'd have to connect with specific safety equipment.  You could put power on the grid only when you have a buyer arranged.  Stuff like that.  The same would apply to communication companies, or any other endeavor where the power of imminent domain is used to build infrastructure.


Many places are real close to that, where one can choose their electric supplier, and pay a fee for using the grid.  Look back to one of the issues with Texas, many choose to go with a place that charged them a small percentage of the wholesale cost. When Texas had the issues, the wholesale price went through the roof, all of those that thought they had a good deal, suddenly got sticker shock. The other suppliers who had set prices, lost money when the wholesale price went above their contract price.

Here is a decent write up.









						What's behind $15,000 electricity bills in Texas?
					

Some Texans are receiving eye-popping electric bills after power providers passed on volatile costs to some of their customers – legally.




					theconversation.com
				




Pa had it before I left there, but I did not study it enough to say if I like it or not.

Also done with phone service in many areas. I wish they would do it with internet providers, the company here sucks.


----------



## Shotgun

Superburban said:


> Many places are real close to that, where one can choose their electric supplier,



Close, but not quite.  What you have in Texas is a bunch of resellers, all selling from just a few producers.  Those few producers can decide that the spot price isn't high enough for them, and just shut down.  Then the resellers have to buy from out of state at exorbitant prices to satisfy their customers.  It isn't so much a market as it is a futures market.

Even given that, what Texas has would work fine, if people were made aware and prepared.  I know that if I buy a Chinesium tool, I will probably get something not quite square or with other hidden flaws.  I pays my money, and I makes my bet.  But, if I pay for a Starrett or Kurt, . . . well, that thing better work right out of the box.  That's a fair market.  What you had in Texas was Chinesium MARKETED as a utility. . . bad mojo.

If I were in Texas, I'd be buying the cheap electricity, but also looking to buy one of the new Ford electric trucks that includes a 6,000W inverter.  I'd also build out my solar  installation like I have it here in NC.  I don't feed back to the grid.  The grid feed backs up my system.  My system won't run my whole house, but I'll still be online talking to you guys if the power goes out


----------



## Shotgun

Superburban said:


> Many places are real close to that, where one can choose their electric supplier,



Close, but not quite.  What you have in Texas is a bunch of resellers, all selling from just a few producers.  Those few producers can decide that the spot price isn't high enough for them, and just shut down.  Then the resellers have to buy from out of state at exorbitant prices to satisfy their customers.  It isn't so much a market as it is a futures market.

Even given that, what Texas has would work fine, if people were made aware and prepared.  I know that if I buy a Chinesium tool, I will probably get something not quite square or with other hidden flaws.  I pays my money, and I makes my bet.  But, if I pay for a Starrett or Kurt, . . . well, that thing better work right out of the box.  That's a fair market.  What you had in Texas was Chinesium MARKETED as a utility. . . bad mojo.

If I were in Texas, I'd be buying the cheap electricity, but also looking to buy one of the new Ford electric trucks that includes a 6,000W inverter.  I'd also build out my solar  installation like I have it here in NC.  I don't feed back to the grid.  The grid feed backs up my system.  My system won't run my whole house, but I'll still be online talking to you guys if the power goes out


----------



## EricB

The Last Chase, 1981.


Seemed far fetched at the time...

Eric


----------



## jbolt

EricB said:


> The Last Chase, 1981.
> View attachment 374442
> 
> Seemed far fetched at the time...
> 
> Eric


"he drives for the Holy Land - the Free State of California" LOL!


----------



## Shotgun

EricB said:


> The Last Chase, 1981.
> View attachment 374442
> 
> Seemed far fetched at the time...
> 
> Eric


"free state of California"???   Bwahahaha!!

Tell the truth.  You got that from the Babylon Bee.  Didn't you?


----------



## Eddyde

EricB said:


> The Last Chase, 1981.
> View attachment 374442
> 
> Seemed far fetched at the time...
> 
> Eric


How did I miss that one, lol.


----------



## wachuko

EricB said:


> The Last Chase, 1981.
> View attachment 374442
> 
> Seemed far fetched at the time...
> 
> Eric



Insane man!  I was trying to remember the title of that movie!!!  Thank you!!  Now to see if any of the online streaming services carry it...


----------



## Aaron_W

EricB said:


> The Last Chase, 1981.
> View attachment 374442
> 
> Seemed far fetched at the time...
> 
> Eric



I saw this movie on TV when I was a kid. Don't remember much about it other than it had "the six million dollar man" in it.


----------



## wachuko

Aaron_W said:


> I saw this movie on TV when I was a kid. Don't remember much about it other than it had "the six million dollar man" in it.


That was exactly what I remembered as well... watching it as a kid on TV... for some reason I thought about it the other day and was trying to remember the name... I should have just searched in IMDb but forgot about it....


----------



## jbolt

And here we go.

National mile-driven tax pilot program tucked into $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/mile-driven-tax-pilot-program-tucked-12-trillion-i/

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


----------



## Janderso

I'm reading Automotive News this morning, Jaguar Land Rover, just announced they are dropping all their current lines in 2025 and moving to a, "two, possibly three electric vehicles that share a platform separate from those underpinning Land Rover products."
It seems every week another automotive manufacturer is announcing their 100% EV lineup. Why? Tesla is now the worlds most valuable automaker. GM announced a full EV line-up by 2035.
Some of the "lack of infrastructure to support" has been discussed.
My son and I were talking about it over the weekend. 80% of chargers are level 2, these are typically 19.2kw (80) amp systems, according to the afdc excerpt below.
These can charge EV's overnight.
The concern is the additional load it will put on the grid. I don't know about the rest of the country but PG&E is at it's breaking point.
With hydro electric out of the picture due to the drought and another Nuclear facility is retiring soon.
I'm curious how the rest of the utilities fare in the country??

If you have any valid statistics regarding the added load on the grid, I would love to hear your views.

_""AC Level 2 equipment (often referred to simply as Level 2) offers charging through 240 V (typical in residential applications) or 208 V (typical in commercial applications) electrical service. Most homes have 240 V service available, and because Level 2 equipment can charge a typical PEV battery overnight, PEV owners commonly install it for home charging. Level 2 equipment is also commonly used for public and workplace charging. This charging option can operate at up to *80 amperes (Amp) and 19.2 kW*. However, most residential Level 2 equipment operates at lower power. Many of these units operate at up to 30 Amps, delivering 7.2 kW of power. These units require a dedicated 40-Amp circuit. As of 2020."_"


----------



## 5tmorris

I asked an expert at a public meeting about electric cars:

1.  I asked about the stiffness of the grid and the ability to handle the peak loads from the charging.
He stated that the cars would charge at night when demand is low
2.  Then I asked If over 50% of the US power is generated by coal and natural gas what specifically are the environmental benefits.
He stated that new wind and solar would be available to handle the peak
3.  I then asked if the cars are charging at night how can solar be included.
He got flustered at that time and said that was a question for an engineer(I happen to be an engineer)

In engineering we perform mass and energy balances to determine the efficiency of a system, weather it be mechanical, electrical or chemical.  A quick look at losses inherent in going from chemical combustion to steam to electrical, then transmission losses back to chemical(charging the batteries)then to electrical then mechanical(turning the wheels on the car) and you are hard pressed to say the electrical car "system" is more efficient than internal combustion engines.  And if you add in the mining and refining of the rare earths and metals mentioned earlier, we are essentially pushing the environmental nightmare on third world countries, which in my opinion is unconscionable.


----------



## Shotgun

I think the grid will take care of itself.  We already see Ford adding a 6kW inverter.  How long before one of the companies gets smart and integrates a solar power charge controller?  Most cars sit in a parking lot all day, getting baked by the sun.  Solar panels can be had that are almost as cheap as plywood.  A car cover using panels, is a no brainer at that point.


----------



## Shotgun

5tmorris said:


> I asked an expert at a public meeting about electric cars:
> 
> 3.  I then asked if the cars are charging at night how can solar be included.
> He got flustered at that time and said that was a question for an engineer(I happen to be an engineer)


We always run into trouble when we try to apply old thinking to new problems, and "experts" never seem to want to upset the old way of doing things.  Having panels to directly charge the cars would turn your logical logic train on its head.  I'd like to use solar to charge my car at work from solar panels that are keeping the southern sun from baking my car to an early death, and then driving it home to use the extra energy to partially power my house.  

Sure, I would probably only have about 2kW of panels available at a parking space, but it is 8 hours at a minimum.  According to this link it requires 0.346kWh to travel 1 mile.  That 8 hours would get me a little more than 46 miles.  When I have a daily drive, it is about 10 miles each way.









						Average Electric Car kWh Per Mile [Results From 231 EVs]
					

Find the average electric car kWh per 100 miles, along with the best and the worst. Plus see the costs, savings and how you can go greener.




					ecocostsavings.com


----------



## ErichKeane

Shotgun said:


> We always run into trouble when we try to apply old thinking to new problems, and "experts" never seem to want to upset the old way of doing things.  Having panels to directly charge the cars would turn your logical logic train on its head.  I'd like to use solar to charge my car at work from solar panels that are keeping the southern sun from baking my car to an early death, and then driving it home to use the extra energy to partially power my house.
> 
> Sure, I would probably only have about 2kW of panels available at a parking space, but it is 8 hours at a minimum.  According to this link it requires 0.346kWh to travel 1 mile.  That 8 hours would get me a little more than 46 miles.  When I have a daily drive, it is about 10 miles each way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Average Electric Car kWh Per Mile [Results From 231 EVs]
> 
> 
> Find the average electric car kWh per 100 miles, along with the best and the worst. Plus see the costs, savings and how you can go greener.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ecocostsavings.com


FWIW, my EV gets ~4.1 miles/stored KWh (and it is a mid-sized EV), so that is either out of date, or including some level of conversion.

Another thing, having solar power 'stored' in some method is completely plausable to cover night-time-use as well.  The nice part about solar is the 'cost' (after initial install) of the power is 'free', so even less-effective ways of power storage are back on the menu!  I know that some traditional power grids use water-pumped-up-hill as a method, and others boil sodium/some other chemical, so those are presumably somewhat efficient.

Finally, an automotive ICE is quite inefficient compared to power-plants (thanks to the economies of scale), even running on the same fuel.  So a power plant running on coal/oil isn't ideal, but is at least efficient enough to make up for the conversions plus some.


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## Superburban

5tmorris said:


> I asked an expert at a public meeting about electric cars:
> 
> 1.  I asked about the stiffness of the grid and the ability to handle the peak loads from the charging.
> He stated that the cars would charge at night when demand is low
> 2.  Then I asked If over 50% of the US power is generated by coal and natural gas what specifically are the environmental benefits.
> He stated that new wind and solar would be available to handle the peak
> 3.  I then asked if the cars are charging at night how can solar be included.
> He got flustered at that time and said that was a question for an engineer(I happen to be an engineer)
> 
> In engineering we perform mass and energy balances to determine the efficiency of a system, weather it be mechanical, electrical or chemical.  A quick look at losses inherent in going from chemical combustion to steam to electrical, then transmission losses back to chemical(charging the batteries)then to electrical then mechanical(turning the wheels on the car) and you are hard pressed to say the electrical car "system" is more efficient than internal combustion engines.  And if you add in the mining and refining of the rare earths and metals mentioned earlier, we are essentially pushing the environmental nightmare on third world countries, which in my opinion is unconscionable.


I would love to know what percentage of the electric from the grid is used to cool the batteries while it charges. My Pacifica hybrid has one heck of a fan going on the hot days, to cool things down. Even when driving on a hot day, the fan runs for several minutes after I park, to cool the batteries back down. 

Charge at night? only residential ones with off peak rates, otherwise most will be charged when needed. Look at all these charging stations this new infastructure bill claims to be adding. No one can look at that and say they will only be used at night.


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## Janderso

5tmorris said:


> I asked an expert at a public meeting about electric cars:
> 
> 1.  I asked about the stiffness of the grid and the ability to handle the peak loads from the charging.
> He stated that the cars would charge at night when demand is low
> 2.  Then I asked If over 50% of the US power is generated by coal and natural gas what specifically are the environmental benefits.
> He stated that new wind and solar would be available to handle the peak
> 3.  I then asked if the cars are charging at night how can solar be included.
> He got flustered at that time and said that was a question for an engineer(I happen to be an engineer)
> 
> In engineering we perform mass and energy balances to determine the efficiency of a system, weather it be mechanical, electrical or chemical.  A quick look at losses inherent in going from chemical combustion to steam to electrical, then transmission losses back to chemical(charging the batteries)then to electrical then mechanical(turning the wheels on the car) and you are hard pressed to say the electrical car "system" is more efficient than internal combustion engines.  And if you add in the mining and refining of the rare earths and metals mentioned earlier, we are essentially pushing the environmental nightmare on third world countries, which in my opinion is unconscionable.


5t,
Your conversation with the "expert" is comical.
I agree with your opinions.


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## Janderso

The scientist Neil Degrasse Tyson released this rather silly interview. He says after all the fossil fuel used to produce and charge an EV, the EV is still a better choice?


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## ErichKeane

Janderso said:


> The scientist Neil Degrasse Tyson released this rather silly interview. He says after all the fossil fuel used to produce and charge an EV, the EV is still a better choice?


Yep, its counter-intuitive perhaps, but an ICE car tends to be ~20%[0], up to ~35% [1] for a very specific diesel engine.  Gas turbine engines (like can be used in power plants!) are about double that.  So as long as the conversions/storage of the power is better than half, it ends up being net-positive.  Additionally, not enough can be said about the fact that incremental gains in 1 location (that is, an update to a power plant) are much easier/cheaper/more effective than trying to improve every engine in town.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#Energy_efficiency
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency#Internal_combustion_engines
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency#Gas_turbine


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## ericc

Erich, that is correct.

It reminds me of this old man harassing me at a party.  One of the faculty at a local university seemed to get it in his head that I was uneducated, so he called an old man over and asked him to make a fool out of me discussing thermodynamics.  The first thing the old man asserted was that electric vehicles all ran off fossil fuel and were no more efficient than burning it directly due to all the steps.  You hear this argument a lot on the Internet.  I told him that you can get insane efficiencies with innovative combined cycle plants that you cannot get from the otto cycle.  He demanded, how good?  I said, how about 105%.  He said that violates the first law of thermodynamics.  Then, I said, how about 85%.  He said that violates the second law of thermodynamics, which is Carnot's Law.  I told him that Carnot's Law tells nothing about the efficiency of a complete process.  It only tells about the maximum amount of energy that can be extracted from a theoretical heat engine based on the temperature difference between inlet and outlet. I then told him about a steam plant running near Bakersfield.  I think a lot of you can see what's coming.  One of the operators in a heavy oil field needed some steam for their enhanced oil recovery process.  The price was kind of high, even for "low quality" steam.  "Low quality" means low superheat temperature, and this steam is useless for power generation.  It does, however, contain a lot of energy.  So, this operator started generating higher quality steam, and ran it through a power plant to generate electricity.  The waste heat (lost energy) of such a cycle was low quality steam, which is just what they needed for their oilfield operation.  It turned out that the power they generated from the energy released in the transition from high to low quality steam more than paid for the operation, so that's where the greater than 100% number comes from.  Then, I asked the old man whether this cycle could be used in an internal combustion engine for road transportation applications.  His eyes went wide and he didn't answer.  He ended up running to the faculty guy who sent him, and asked him where he found this creep.  Get him away from me.  Ha ha, that's the last time I got an invitation.  Later I found out that he wasn't really faculty, he was more of a visiting or adjunct.


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## f350ca

Lets see, solar panels operate at about 20 watt / square foot. A full sized truck is about 6 feet wide and 20 feet long, 120 square feet, 2.4 kw max. If it takes a 19.2 kw charger all night to bring up a battery you might make it out of the parking lot by the end of a sunny week.

Greg


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## ErichKeane

f350ca said:


> Lets see, solar panels operate at about 20 watt / square foot. A full sized truck is about 6 feet wide and 20 feet long, 120 square feet, 2.4 kw max. If it takes a 19.2 kw charger all night to bring up a battery you might make it out of the parking lot by the end of a sunny week.
> 
> Greg


That assumes the truck is starting from 0% when parking.  Most people don't use a full tank of gas (or charge!) every day.

One additionally 'interesting' thing: My employer put solar panels up in the parking lot creating 'covered' parking for a large section.  They get a surprising amount of energy from them (in Oregon no less!), but the 'covered parking' bit is also a huge advantage.  You end up saving a bunch of power having to warm up the car in the winter to melt ice, and a bunch from having to cool off the car when getting into it in the summer!

That said, even panels on the top of a car/truck wouldn't need to be a 100% solution.  Each source of power is to augment the grid, not replace it.


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## martik777

ericc said:


> Erich, that is correct.
> 
> It reminds me of this old man harassing me at a party.  One of the faculty at a local university seemed to get it in his head that I was uneducated, so he called an old man over and asked him to make a fool out of me discussing thermodynamics.  The first thing the old man asserted was that electric vehicles all ran off fossil fuel and were no more efficient than burning it directly due to all the steps.  You hear this argument a lot on the Internet.  I told him that you can get insane efficiencies with innovative combined cycle plants that you cannot get from the otto cycle.  He demanded, how good?  I said, how about 105%.  He said that violates the first law of thermodynamics.  Then, I said, how about 85%.  He said that violates the second law of thermodynamics, which is Carnot's Law.  I told him that Carnot's Law tells nothing about the efficiency of a complete process.  It only tells about the maximum amount of energy that can be extracted from a theoretical heat engine based on the temperature difference between inlet and outlet. I then told him about a steam plant running near Bakersfield.  I think a lot of you can see what's coming.  One of the operators in a heavy oil field needed some steam for their enhanced oil recovery process.  The price was kind of high, even for "low quality" steam.  "Low quality" means low superheat temperature, and this steam is useless for power generation.  It does, however, contain a lot of energy.  So, this operator started generating higher quality steam, and ran it through a power plant to generate electricity.  The waste heat (lost energy) of such a cycle was low quality steam, which is just what they needed for their oilfield operation.  It turned out that the power they generated from the energy released in the transition from high to low quality steam more than paid for the operation, so that's where the greater than 100% number comes from.  Then, I asked the old man whether this cycle could be used in an internal combustion engine for road transportation applications.  His eyes went wide and he didn't answer.  He ended up running to the faculty guy who sent him, and asked him where he found this creep.  Get him away from me.  Ha ha, that's the last time I got an invitation.  Later I found out that he wasn't really faculty, he was more of a visiting or adjunct.


Reminds me of my fav scene in Good Will Hunting:


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## Aaron_W

ericc said:


> One of the operators in a heavy oil field needed some steam for their enhanced oil recovery process.  The price was kind of high, even for "low quality" steam.  "Low quality" means low superheat temperature, and this steam is useless for power generation.  It does, however, contain a lot of energy.  So, this operator started generating higher quality steam, and ran it through a power plant to generate electricity.  The waste heat (lost energy) of such a cycle was low quality steam, which is just what they needed for their oilfield operation.  It turned out that the power they generated from the energy released in the transition from high to low quality steam more than paid for the operation, so that's where the greater than 100% number comes from.



Reducing consumption through waste products or local production is often overlooked. I was reading about the use of Sterling engines in Scandinavia. Sterling engines operate off of heat differentials, so in a cold climate the warmth inside a building vs the cold outside can create electricity. Not a stand alone power system, but it creates power and helps to offset the power needed for heating, essentially creating free energy.. Sweden has included Sterling engines on their Gottland class submarines. All the heat generated inside the submarine from the machinery and crew (body heat) inside the sub and the sea water outside powers the Sterling engine which is used to charge the batteries.

There are many sources of waste energy that could be tapped, and every little addition is a little less that needs to come from the grid. This is actually one of my concerns with so many only looking for one solution. The best option will be a variety of power options and creative uses for them. Having every home off the grid with solar or wind is not likely, but if every home generated 500w or 1000w through some means, that is a tremendous amount of power when added up. Power sources could include solar, wind, water, heat exchange (fireplace), exercise machines tied to generate power* etc. Of course some more practical than others.

* I used to work with a girl whose dad was kind of a mad tinkerer and very frugal. He hooked up a generator to an exercise bike. If the kids wanted to watch TV they had to pedal creating the electricity for the TV.


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## Shotgun

f350ca said:


> Lets see, solar panels operate at about 20 watt / square foot. A full sized truck is about 6 feet wide and 20 feet long, 120 square feet, 2.4 kw max. If it takes a 19.2 kw charger all night to bring up a battery you might make it out of the parking lot by the end of a sunny week.
> 
> Greg


That was the point in quoting kWH/mile.  My current vehicle has an 18gal tank, but I don't have to fill it up every day.  And you're 120 square feet is only the area directly over the truck.  Car covers tend to be a bit larger than the car they're covering.  So, I only get 3kW for 9 hours.  That is 27kWh.  I'd want something bigger than the sedan, so figure .5kwh/mile.  I'd still only be using half the charge from the panels each day.

Anyway, the point was directed at what is going to happen to the grid.  The point  was that as power generation decentralizes, the grid will be fine.  And I'm happy with that.  I'd prefer to not be beholden to Dookie Power, PG&E, et. al., any more than I have to.  In fact, I'm going to look at what it will take to hook an exercise bike to MY tv.  (And won't actually, 'cause I'm lazy, but it would be a cool thing to do).


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## Shotgun

I don't know if it is true or not, but I hear that the really big dump trucks that are used in mining to bring rock down from mountains have electric brakes.  When they get to the bottom of the hill they drain the batteries and use the energy to power other stuff.


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## ttabbal

Shotgun said:


> I don't know if it is true or not, but I hear that the really big dump trucks that are used in mining to bring rock down from mountains have electric brakes.  When they get to the bottom of the hill they drain the batteries and use the energy to power other stuff.



It wouldn't surprise me. There are storage ideas proposed using gravity. For example, lift trains up a mountain, let them slowly drop while running a generator. Pumped Hydro, and even cranes piling blocks up and putting them down to generate. The Hydro one is already in use, but it requires somewhat specific conditions. Combined with batteries, those types of setups can make a big difference for renewables. I'm not sure about 100%, but let's push for, say, 50% while we work on it.


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## Eddyde

Shotgun said:


> I don't know if it is true or not, but I hear that the really big dump trucks that are used in mining to bring rock down from mountains have electric brakes.  When they get to the bottom of the hill they drain the batteries and use the energy to power other stuff.


Most of those trucks are Diesel-Electric, that is, they have a Diesel engine running a generator that powers electric motors to the wheels. So yes such trucks could harness braking power through regeneration. Diesel locomotives work the same way but as far as I know, they use massive resistor networks for braking.


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## Superburban

Eddyde said:


> Most of those trucks are Diesel-Electric, that is, they have a Diesel engine running a generator that powers electric motors to the wheels. So yes such trucks could harness braking power through regeneration. Diesel locomotives work the same way but as far as I know, they use massive resistor networks for braking.


Resistors are not regenerative. They would have to have batteries to store the generated power, they are just using the resistors to convert the power to heat, saving on the actual brakes. As far as I know, neither the big trucks, or locomotive have regenerative capability.


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## kb58

There's a new electric car company trying to make a name for itself... I'm too lazy to look up their name, but they put solar panels on the hood, roof, and trunk. They advertise that if you live within X miles of work, you never have to plug it in to charge it. It might be true, but only under very specific conditions, like: longest day of the year, and no obstructions to block the sun, and you live on the equator, and you don't use any accessories, including lights, and stay under some speed which isn't specified, and you don't have to stop, and... well, you get the idea.


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## Shotgun

kb58 said:


> There's a new electric car company trying to make a name for itself... I'm too lazy to look up their name, but they put solar panels on the hood, roof, and trunk. They advertise that if you live within X miles of work, you never have to plug it in to charge it. It might be true, but only under very specific conditions, like: longest day of the year, and no obstructions to block the sun, and you live on the equator, and you don't use any accessories, including lights, and stay under some speed which isn't specified, and you don't have to stop, and... well, you get the idea.


They advertise up to 16miles a day or so. 









						Aptera Motors
					

Aptera is the world’s first Solar Electric Vehicle that requires no charging for most daily use - giving you the freedom to do more with less impact on the planet.




					www.aptera.us


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## Eddyde

Superburban said:


> Resistors are not regenerative. They would have to have batteries to store the generated power, they are just using the resistors to convert the power to heat, saving on the actual brakes. As far as I know, neither the big trucks, or locomotive have regenerative capability.


Sorry I wasn't clear, I know resistors don't store energy. I was comparing the locomotives, which I'm pretty sure don't have battery storage, to the mining trucks which might.


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## matthewsx

Nearly 200 posts, can’t resist any longer




Huge Design inspiration for our latest production bike.


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## matthewsx

Shameless plug for our products.









						Welcome To Zero Motorcycles
					

Manufacturer of 100% electric motorcycles for the street and dirt.




					www.zeromotorcycles.com
				




See what I did there 

John


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## Janderso

Aaron_W said:


> Power sources could include solar, wind, water, heat exchange (fireplace), exercise machines tied to generate power* etc. Of course some more practical than others.


We have millions of tons of recyclables-plastics without a market now. This would make good fuel for electrical generation -IMHO.
Better than dumping it in the ocean.

I just read this morning in Automotive News, The 1 trillion $ infrastructure bill includes 7.5 billion $ to install electric chargers nationwide.
No comment


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## Shotgun

The problem with burning plastics is all the nasty chemicals they add to make them useful.
Never have been sure how that could be any worse than burning coal, but. . .


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## Gaffer

GM recalls all Chevy Bolts over battery fires





https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/gm-recalls-all-chevy-bolts-over-battery-fires


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## ErichKeane

Gaffer said:


> GM recalls all Chevy Bolts over battery fires
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/gm-recalls-all-chevy-bolts-over-battery-fires


Yeah, GM has been having some serious troubles with their base-bolt.  My understanding is they bought the battery/drivetrain technology from LG as a stop-gap so they could have an EV and compete with Nissan while they developed their own EVs (like the Bolt EUV!). 

At least now they think they've figured out the battery problem enough to recall it, but I get the feeling they would prefer to ignore the Bolt EV and just move past it!


----------

