# 316 SS project



## Aukai (Jun 4, 2021)

A fisherman I know came to me to help him make hardware to mount the outboards on his boat. He was fishing recently on a rough day, and an engine fell off of the transom, it was banging up his hull pretty bad, so he cut the cables, and let it sink. In my opinion he was negligent in his maintenance of electrical grounds, and sacrificial Zinc anodes, you'll see in the pictures. I purchased 3/16" x 3" x 5' 316 SS, cut the 8 pieces needed, drilled 8 holes and made 8 3/16 washers. He want's to pay me, and I know material costs, but I do not know what to charge him for the work. Any suggestions are appreciated. The pictures are of making the washers, I put a penny over the center hole to start the through arbor coolant flow for the annular cutter, I cut the holes just before break through, and finished them on the vise, and belt sander. His old stuff is there too.


----------



## westerner (Jun 4, 2021)

'Negligent' applies here, methinks...

I am always amazed at how corrosive our world is, and yet-
Where are ya gonna be without salt OR water?


----------



## Dhal22 (Jun 4, 2021)

westerner said:


> 'Negligent' applies here, methinks...
> 
> I am always amazed at how corrosive our world is, and yet-
> Where are ya gonna be without salt OR water?



As a plumber I can agree with you on corrosiveness. Amazing it's power.


----------



## matthewsx (Jun 4, 2021)

For one off jobs charge time and materials. Charge a real rate so others running businesses won’t be competing with a “hobby” business that doesn’t need to make any money.

If you want to give a friends discount go right ahead but quality work deserves fair compensation.

You do want to buy more tools, right


----------



## mmcmdl (Jun 5, 2021)

Aukai said:


> . Any suggestions are appreciated.











						Macro Closeup Check Made Out Arm Stock Photo 16625833 | Shutterstock
					

Find Macro Closeup Check Made Out Arm stock images in HD and millions of other royalty-free stock photos, illustrations and vectors in the Shutterstock collection.  Thousands of new, high-quality pictures added every day.




					www.shutterstock.com


----------



## aliva (Jun 5, 2021)

$10.00 each


----------



## brino (Jun 5, 2021)

Aukai said:


> He want's to pay me, and I know material costs, but I do not know what to charge him for the work. Any suggestions are appreciated.



That's something I struggle with often.
I often do work for "beer money".

I am NOT a job shop, I have a hobby shop.....and my day job pays the bills (electrical engineer working in telecommunications).

The shop work is done on MY schedule (if you need it tomorrow find someone else!), I evaluate jobs at the start to determine if I'm even interested.
I don't shy away from buying new tools for a job, each new tool improves my knowledge and my shops capabilities.
In fact, the most interesting jobs are ones that I've never done before and where I gotta think about the solution or design something.



matthewsx said:


> For one off jobs charge time and materials. Charge a real rate so others running businesses won’t be competing with a “hobby” business that doesn’t need to make any money.



John, that statement appears to say "don't charge too much".



matthewsx said:


> If you want to give a friends discount go right ahead but quality work deserves fair compensation.
> 
> You do want to buy more tools, right



That statement appears to say" don't charge too little".

Okay "fair compensation" let's try to break it down......the arguments:

Why I should charge more:
I have ~400 sq feet of space dedicated to shop space in the garage. 
No one can park inside so everyone clears snow and scrapes windows in the winter.
I have purchased a lathe, mill, power hacksaw, band saw, table saw, drill press, a few welders; thousands of dollars of equipment.
All the resource of my shop contribute to my paid projects. (milling, lathe, welding, 3D-printing, electronics, etc.)
Much of the cost of running those machines is invisible to others (power and maintenance: bearings, belts, blades, cutters, etc.)
Also, learning the skills to use that equipment properly takes a long time.

Why I should charge less:
I would dedicated that amount of shop space and all the tools just for me to use anyway; it is a hobby that I enjoy.
I would want the same tools, and skills for my own projects even if the rest of the outside world didn't exist.
I enjoy ever minute in my shop, I listen to the music I like, I start and stop when I want, I don't have to push myself hard. 
Therefore it's hard to justify try to collect anything near a "living wage" from it.


Many of my friends from work (some engineers, PhDs, masters) know the value of having me and my shop available for projects and pay well.
Those jobs help me buy new equipment.

Some friends and ex-neighbours (some great people that enjoy knowing) get help for free (........okay full disclosure......I got cookies and a beer for helping install a ceiling fan today).

On  a recent kayak rack build for someone at work, I spelled out the costs materials + labour. 
That job included only less than $30 worth of material I already had on site (1" and 2" square steel tubing; needed wire brushing), and near 12 hours total effort. This included cutting 45 degree miters(shop saw), plasma cutting, drilling and welding.
I suggested $150 all-in for the job(~$10 per hour). He insisted on $200 ($14 per hour).
We were both happy.

However going into that job, I thought it would take less time.....about half, and maybe it would have if I didn't dawdle. 
If I had had to quote it ahead of time I would have been wrong and (if I cared about hourly rate then) racing thru the build and NOT having any fun....it would then be work!   I'd have to charge way more once I consider it work.

-brino


----------



## tjb (Jun 5, 2021)

matthewsx said:


> You do want to buy more tools, right


He doesn't need any more tools.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 5, 2021)

Thanks Brino, I am a hobbyist, that gets requests, I do not wish to go into business, and I do not want any insurance hassles. As you pointed out, it takes longer than you think to get these little projects done. Prep, layout, execution, chamfering, cleaning up edges, and then just general cleanup afterwards. I do know that if I told him to go to one of the very few shops that are here it may be weeks until he is able to get it done, so I am happy to help.

Whtchu talkn' bout Terry


----------



## matthewsx (Jun 5, 2021)

brino said:


> That's something I struggle with often.
> I often do work for "beer money".
> 
> I am NOT a job shop, I have a hobby shop.....and my day job pays the bills (electrical engineer working in telecommunications).
> ...


Yep, time and materials....

I used to run a repair shop where I had to give estimates and stick with them. Most jobs made money but some definitely did not, that was just part of doing business.

Obviously none of us are likely to displace serious fabrication or manufacturing businesses so taking a "job" is often just as much for our learning as actually giving the "customer" the end result. I can't charge for learning how to do something so coming up with a fair hourly rate is definitely a challenge in those cases. Also rates vary greatly depending on region and local competition.

My comment about not undercutting professional shops was really just a reminder that there are folks out there who depend on doing the kinds of jobs we do for fun to put food on the table. However, most of these businesses are so busy lately that if they found out you could do it they'd probably try to sub some of their work out to you....

John


----------



## matthewsx (Jun 5, 2021)

Aukai said:


> Thanks Brino, I am a hobbyist, that gets requests, I do not wish to go into business, and I do not want any insurance hassles. As you pointed out, it takes longer than you think to get these little projects done. Prep, layout, execution, chamfering, cleaning up edges, and then just general cleanup afterwards. I do know that if I told him no go to one of the very few shops that are here it may be weeks until he is able to get it done, so I am happy to help.
> 
> Whtchu talkn' bout Terry


Yes, dealing with insurance. And landlords, and workers, and licensing, and taxes, and, and, and....

Helping out your buddies is probably one of the best things about having a home shop, for many it's a far better deal to be paid in liquid refreshment than cash

John


----------



## tjb (Jun 6, 2021)

Aukai said:


> Whtchu talkn' bout Terry


Just stating the obvious.  That's all.

  

Let the record note, I said, "He doesn't NEED any more tools."  Didn't say anything about 'want' any more; or 'doesn't plan on buying' any more.  I know better than that.


----------



## jimbo fury (Jun 6, 2021)

Aukai said:


> A fisherman I know came to me to help him make hardware to mount the outboards on his boat. He was fishing recently on a rough day, and an engine fell off of the transom, it was banging up his hull pretty bad, so he cut the cables, and let it sink. In my opinion he was negligent in his maintenance of electrical grounds, and sacrificial Zinc anodes, you'll see in the pictures. I purchased 3/16" x 3" x 5' 316 SS, cut the 8 pieces needed, drilled 8 holes and made 8 3/16 washers. He want's to pay me, and I know material costs, but I do not know what to charge him for the work. Any suggestions are appreciated. The pictures are of making the washers, I put a penny over the center hole to start the through arbor coolant flow for the annular cutter, I cut the holes just before break through, and finished them on the vise, and belt sander. His old stuff is there too.


Did you passivate your finished parts? If not, they will corrode instantly. Citric acid is extremely cheap to passivate SS parts. They don't look like they've been passivated. There are also much better SS than 316 for marine environments.

What makes SS corrosion resistant is when it is passivated it removes all iron atoms from the surface. The chromium then oxidizes and that is the protective layer of SS. If you scratch your sink you will see a rust line. Remove rust, put citric acid on it. No more rusting.

Sea water has a lot of salt which means it has a lot of electrons flowing everywhere increasing the corrosion rate. 316 is the most economical but there are hundreds of types of SS which are much better suited for a marine environment. I have a great book for materials engineering at work. I can come back and recommend better material options. Those would most likely increase your cost and your customer price but would be worth it if they are negligent in maintenance and checks of their equipment.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 6, 2021)

I'll have to look that up....I'm at a 140 bucks just for the 5' length of 316. I would like to know about the other grades though, when you have a chance.


----------



## jimbo fury (Jun 6, 2021)

Aukai said:


> I'll have to look that up....I'm at a 140 bucks just for the 5' length of 316. I would like to know about the other grades though, when you have a chance.


I will grab my materials book from work and do my best to suggest better materials tomorrow.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 6, 2021)

Thank you


----------



## jimbo fury (Jun 7, 2021)

Aukai said:


> Thank you


.....forgot my book. I'm setting an alarm reminder for tomorrow so I don't forget it again.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 7, 2021)

No problem


----------



## RJSakowski (Jun 7, 2021)

As to payment for work done for friends and neighbors, I don't charge for time, only for materials and any special tools required for the job.  If I charged based on my last pay rate, most wouldn't give me the job and if I charged what they are expecting, I would be insulted.  Much better to have them owe a favor. You never know if/when you might need something that they have to offer.

There are those who are takers.  After one or two encounters, I write them off as "bad debts" and when they bring any future projects, I say that, "I'd like to help but I'm really backed up with work right now".  Fortunately these are few and far between.

Concerning the incident, I'm curious to know how one can lose an outboard.  My outboards are all bolted through the transom and if an outboard came loose it would take a good chunk of the transom with it.  One issue that I have run into is that the wear and tear of the outboard will compress the wood core, creating leakage around the bolt holes and subsequent rot.  My solution has been to make stainless steel bushings for the through holes so that bolts have solid metal to work against.    When I replace the core with new wood, I fiberglass the core and set the bushings with epoxy.

Granted, I have a fresh water environment and I don't keep my boat in the water.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 8, 2021)

In my first set of pictures, the 3rd one shows his original bolt, and plate.... his Zinc anodes were completely white, and probably very ineffective, I'm not sure how his grounding is being done either.


----------



## jimbo fury (Jun 8, 2021)

Ok, I did a little research (not much, work is extremely hectic right now) and you should use 2205 Stainless Steel (it has other names like all steels, such as, DUPLEX 2205, UNS S32205). It DOES have a higher cost. You get what you pay for right?

You paid $140 for a 5' bar of 3/16" x 3" wide, that's ROUGHLY $2.33 per inch. You can search for better prices, but on McMaster Carr a 3/16" x 3" x 6" long piece is $37.83 and based on your pics you would need 8 total = $302.64. Per inch cost is $6.31. Triple the cost per inch, however, based on your pics you could buy 8 pieces and would only double your total material cost.

So you would double your cost, but drastically compensate for your friend's negligence in maintenance and drastically increase the life of these parts compared to 316. You would still be required to passivate the parts after machining.

Whether helping a friend or doing this for someone for some extra cash, I would sell them on the better SS, not to increase profit, but to provide them with the better option that will last much longer. The corrosion resistance of 2205 is nearly double that of 316......at double the price   

I'm not good at making money, I usually break even or lose a little bit to help people....


----------



## Aukai (Jun 9, 2021)

Thank you for looking that up, good information


----------



## MrWhoopee (Jun 16, 2021)

jimbo fury said:


> Ok, I did a little research (not much, work is extremely hectic right now) and you should use 2205 Stainless Steel (it has other names like all steels, such as, DUPLEX 2205, UNS S32205). It DOES have a higher cost. You get what you pay for right?


Reminds me of the "engineer" who spec'd a material from the ASTM manual without bothering to check if it was actually available. It was, if he was willing to buy a mill run. The best material for the job is frequently unobtanium.

I have done a very few jobs for others since I got my shop set up. If the work was business related, I charged what I felt was fair, regardless of how much time it actually took. If it was a project for a friend or neighbor, my charge is always "your undying gratitude and a favor to be named later". Having the neighbor with the backhoe in your debt can be quite valuable in an emergency. I generally make them provide their own material, showing them were to get it if necessary.


----------



## tjb (Jun 16, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> "your undying gratitude and a favor to be named later"


Ditto.  Any money I would have received for doing favors would have been long gone and completely forgotten.  But the favors I've received in return have been well-worth forgoing a little bit of cash.  (Not to mention the learning experience from making some of the parts I've made for friends.)

Regards


----------



## Janderso (Jun 16, 2021)

tjb said:


> He doesn't need any more tools.


That never stopped me.


----------



## tjb (Jun 16, 2021)

Janderso said:


> That never stopped me.


Me either.


----------



## jimbo fury (Jun 16, 2021)

MrWhoopee said:


> Reminds me of the "engineer" who spec'd a material from the ASTM manual without bothering to check if it was actually available. It was, if he was willing to buy a mill run. The best material for the job is frequently unobtanium.
> 
> I have done a very few jobs for others since I got my shop set up. If the work was business related, I charged what I felt was fair, regardless of how much time it actually took. If it was a project for a friend or neighbor, my charge is always "your undying gratitude and a favor to be named later". Having the neighbor with the backhoe in your debt can be quite valuable in an emergency. I generally make them provide their own material, showing them were to get it if necessary.


That does sound like something an "engineer" would do lol. There were several other good options I recommended a readily available material that wasn't too expensive. I am the "anti-engineer".

I also like to do favors for future favors. Tends to save me far more money than what I would have made charging people.


----------

