# Will it support my mill? Or should I quit being lazy and do it right?



## MontanaLon (Jul 18, 2019)

So the HF mini knee mill I bought yesterday was on a stand but it was junk. 3/4" angle iron and 2x8's for a top. It wouldn't fit in the car so I left it there. Kind of regret leaving the 2x8's now but it was getting late, I was sweaty and had an hour drive ahead of me. So I knew going in I would have to build or buy a stand.

So today I was planning it out and I have some 4x4's in the garage along with some 2x4's and x8's and thread searching here and I think I came up with a solution that will work. Nothing special but while I am at it it will give me some more bench space just a little lower than what would be ideal. So I went out to the garage and while looking for the 2x's I know are out there somewhere I spy a crate I brought home from work probably 15 years ago. It was a shipping/display that came full of trailer balls. 2 feet square and 28.5 inches tall. The thing weighed close to a ton when it was full but after we sold all the balls weighs maybe 35 pounds. 

Construction is 2x4 uprights at each corner with 1x4 sides and bottom. Bottom is supported by 2x4's. The thing is pretty stout and I don't have to build it.

Or should I just quit being lazy and do the 4x4 legged, 2x4 braced extra sized table, with 3/8" bolts all around?


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## ch2co (Jul 18, 2019)

Do it right the first time.


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## benmychree (Jul 19, 2019)

And do not waste time building c--p.  And I can be grumpy too ---


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## projectnut (Jul 19, 2019)

If I were you I would make a custom stand complete with a chip pan.  Below is a picture of my 1916 Seneca Falls machine on a stand I made over 20 years ago.  It was originally mounted to a wooden table.  Even though the table was made of 2x4's, 2x6's and had 4x4 legs all the joints loosened over the years.  The current stand took less than a week to build and hasn't needed any improvements or repairs since it was built.


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## benmychree (Jul 19, 2019)

Nothing beats some extra effort.


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## MontanaLon (Jul 19, 2019)

ch2co said:


> Do it right the first time.





benmychree said:


> And do not waste time building c--p.  And I can be grumpy too ---





projectnut said:


> If I were you I would make a custom stand complete with a chip pan.  Below is a picture of my 1916 Seneca Falls machine on a stand I made over 20 years ago.  It was originally mounted to a wooden table.  Even though the table was made of 2x4's, 2x6's and had 4x4 legs all the joints loosened over the years.  The current stand took less than a week to build and hasn't needed any improvements or repairs since it was built.
> 
> View attachment 298671


If that were in the budget I would do it in a heartbeat.


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## Suzuki4evr (Jul 19, 2019)

projectnut said:


> If I were you I would make a custom stand complete with a chip pan.  Below is a picture of my 1916 Seneca Falls machine on a stand I made over 20 years ago.  It was originally mounted to a wooden table.  Even though the table was made of 2x4's, 2x6's and had 4x4 legs all the joints loosened over the years.  The current stand took less than a week to build and hasn't needed any improvements or repairs since it was built.
> 
> View attachment 298671


I agree. My small lathe is also like this.


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## matthewsx (Jul 19, 2019)

One word.

Steel

That is all.


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## fixit (Jul 19, 2019)

MontanaLon said:


> So the HF mini knee mill I bought yesterday was on a stand but it was junk. 3/4" angle iron and 2x8's for a top. It wouldn't fit in the car so I left it there. Kind of regret leaving the 2x8's now but it was getting late, I was sweaty and had an hour drive ahead of me. So I knew going in I would have to build or buy a stand.
> 
> So today I was planning it out and I have some 4x4's in the garage along with some 2x4's and x8's and thread searching here and I think I came up with a solution that will work. Nothing special but while I am at it it will give me some more bench space just a little lower than what would be ideal. So I went out to the garage and while looking for the 2x's I know are out there somewhere I spy a crate I brought home from work probably 15 years ago. It was a shipping/display that came full of trailer balls. 2 feet square and 28.5 inches tall. The thing weighed close to a ton when it was full but after we sold all the balls weighs maybe 35 pounds.
> 
> ...


Do it right, Mine is 4X4 legs & 2x6's solid no vibration, 6 years old.


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## stioc (Jul 19, 2019)

Just my non-scientific observation that for light weight machines wood dampens and absorbs vibration better unless you overbuild the stand with heavy gauge metal. For heavier machines like your knee mill (heavier gauge) metal is the way to go though.


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## Bob Korves (Jul 19, 2019)

Regardless of the material used, make sure that there is good provision to prevent racking.  Heavy timbers or steel beams will only make structures as rigid as all the corners are held square.  Plywood, sheet metal, diagonal cross braces, and other ideas will make it rigid.  Design them in from the beginning.


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## MontanaLon (Jul 19, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> One word.
> 
> Steel
> 
> That is all.


 Steel is just not in budget at moment. If I had the material laying around I’d go that route in a heartbeat. I have to get it out of car this weekend and would rather have it on stand than laying around in pieces. 


fixit said:


> Do it right, Mine is 4X4 legs & 2x6's solid no vibration, 6 years old.


 That is where I am headed. 


Bob Korves said:


> Regardless of the material used, make sure that there is good provision to prevent racking.  Heavy timbers or steel beams will only make structures as rigid as all the corners are held square.  Plywood, sheet metal, diagonal cross braces, and other ideas will make it rigid.  Design them in from the beginning.


Plan is to enclose 5 sides of it, top, bottom, back and 2 sides. Leaving front open for storage. I’ve got old bolt bins that will fit and allow room to store accessories I am acquiring over time.


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## matthewsx (Jul 19, 2019)

MontanaLon said:


> Steel is just not in budget at moment. If I had the material laying around I’d go that route in a heartbeat. I have to get it out of car this weekend and would rather have it on stand than laying around in pieces.
> That is where I am headed.
> 
> Plan is to enclose 5 sides of it, top, bottom, back and 2 sides. Leaving front open for storage. I’ve got old bolt bins that will fit and allow room to store accessories I am acquiring over time.



That's a pretty tight budget, I could probably do it with new angle steel for less than $75.

Of course I already have the welder and tools to fab something like this up. One source of good angle steel is old bed frames. Not the new ones that are flimsy but the nice old ones that you can usually get for free or cheap at Goodwill. 

I'm sure the wood will work, just make sure to glue AND screw the joints so it doesn't vibrate apart over time.

Cheers,

John


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## RJSakowski (Jul 19, 2019)

Steel is my first choice for a stand, the primary reason being that steel doesn't change dimensionally with temperature and humidity changes.  
All my machines are on steel.

If I were making a stand from wood, I would make it using 2x and 4x stock  and use construction screw or bolts and nuts rather than nails.  I would also glue all joints.  I build my work benches this way and have no problem with racking even under heavy use.  Plywood backs and side will also stiffen up a bench.  I would run 2x4's or '6's under the mounting pads.  Vertical would work better than horizontal.


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## hman (Jul 19, 2019)

+1 on everything RJ and others have said.  My biggest concern with your crate is that it was probably put together with nails.  As others have pointed out, nailed assemblies can loosen over time, especially when there's vibration.  

Whenever I want to build something stout and long-lasting out of wood, I use nuts/bolts/lockwashers for the major joints and good quality deck screws (not drywall screws - I've had too many of those snap while driving them) for minor ones.  And as RJ and others have pointed out, plan ahead to avoid racking.  Even thin panels of plywood spanning the legs can often do the trick.  I've not been using glue, but probably should.


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## dulltool17 (Jul 19, 2019)

My stand is 4x4s, 2x4s and the birch plywood that was the crate in which it arrived.  Top is heavily braced 3/4" plywood with 4x4s directly under the mounting locations.  As Bob said, one needs to keep it from racking; this is done with multiple 1/8" dia cables, 1/4" eyes and turnbuckles.  Like hman said, I used quality deck screws, with the brackets used for deck framing.  The 500# machine is still exactly where it was 4 years ago.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 19, 2019)

wood will work fine, just build it as if you and 2 buddies will be standing on top of it jumping up and down 

Don't forget to leave a hole for the knee elevation screw, it protrudes below the base of the mill when the knee is in the lowest position.


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## MontanaLon (Jul 19, 2019)

dulltool17 said:


> My stand is 4x4s, 2x4s and the birch plywood that was the crate in which it arrived.  Top is heavily braced 3/4" plywood with 4x4s directly under the mounting locations.  As Bob said, one needs to keep it from racking; this is done with multiple 1/8" dia cables, 1/4" eyes and turnbuckles.  Like hman said, I used quality deck screws, with the brackets used for deck framing.  The 500# machine is still exactly where it was 4 years ago.


I was actually looking at all thread today to tie the sides and front and back together diagonally. 


mattthemuppet2 said:


> wood will work fine, just build it as if you and 2 buddies will be standing on top of it jumping up and down
> 
> Don't forget to leave a hole for the knee elevation screw, it protrudes below the base of the mill when the knee is in the lowest position.


Good point. I almost forgot to leave a gap between the bolt bins for the elevation screw. Will have to rearrange how I have that arranged.

How high is the standard stand for a machine this size? I've I have limited head room in the basement and would hate to have to drill a hole in the floor above to get the drawbar out. I see the overall height of the Grizzly on the stand is 68" so I am shooting for that or a touch lower.


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## projectnut (Jul 19, 2019)

Here's a partial picture of a wooden work bench I made back in the 1980's.  It's 14' long 36" deep and stands 30" tall.  It's made of treated lumber with the top and stringers being 2x6's, while the legs are 6x6's.  I originally made it as a rebuild bench for GM 8.1 liter V8's.  There is enough room to disassemble the entire engine and organize all the components on the bench.   I no longer rebuild engines, but it has doubled as an anchor for a drill press, and assorted unfinished projects.

Note the top is screwed and glued to the framework.  The stringers/legs are mortise and tenon joints, and also glued.  You can see the lag screws in the center leg  You can't see the entire bench, but there are 3 sets of legs.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 19, 2019)

The Clausing sits on a steel box 21x21" x 24" high. Mine has the optional 4" riser block so it is 70" tall sitting on its box, but the standard is 66" tall. I had a similar issue with ceiling height, and my wife wasn't open to the idea of cutting a hole in the kitchen floor so I could get a bigger mill in there. It seems like most of the mills put the motor above the head, greatly increasing the height.

Grizzly sells a base for its mill / drills that is very similar to the style of the Clausing's base, but the dimensions are a different 18x28 x 24"H so longer but narrower. It is $325 so you could make something for a lot less but might be of interest from a design point of view.

Mill drill base


I was thinking a well built underbody truck box might be an option, if you could find a used one within your budget.

Something like this. The cheap ones are tin foil, but some of the ones I see used on semi-trucks are built with probably 16 or 18 gauge and are pretty solid.

Truck box


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## Aaron_W (Jul 19, 2019)

Make sure you factor in room for the table movement. I found you need to leave quite a bit of room to either side of the mill to allow full travel and leave room for your hands to comfortably operate the controls. Once I started setting mine up I had to make some adjustments to give it more room than I had initially planned.


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## MontanaLon (Jul 20, 2019)

Aaron_W said:


> The Clausing sits on a steel box 21x21" x 24" high. Mine has the optional 4" riser block so it is 70" tall sitting on its box, but the standard is 66" tall. I had a similar issue with ceiling height, and my wife wasn't open to the idea of cutting a hole in the kitchen floor so I could get a bigger mill in there. It seems like most of the mills put the motor above the head, greatly increasing the height.
> 
> Grizzly sells a base for its mill / drills that is very similar to the style of the Clausing's base, but the dimensions are a different 18x28 x 24"H so longer but narrower. It is $325 so you could make something for a lot less but might be of interest from a design point of view.
> 
> ...


I looked at the Grizzly but it is outside of the budget. The truck box actually crossed my mind this afternoon. I have one sitting in the garage but the more I looked at it the less inclined I was to think it would work. My basement floor is pretty rough. My guess is at some point the floor was dirt and someone put in concrete. But they had to use bagged concrete and could only afford a couple bags at a time. I really need the ability to level whatever I put the machine on and it would be tricky to get it right. Would probably need significant reinforcement to have a chance of working.


Aaron_W said:


> Make sure you factor in room for the table movement. I found you need to leave quite a bit of room to either side of the mill to allow full travel and leave room for your hands to comfortably operate the controls. Once I started setting mine up I had to make some adjustments to give it more room than I had initially planned.


 I have lots of room around where I want to put it in every direction but up. 

I started putting the wood together. I think it will work fine, if I hadn't forgotten to pick up the nuts for the bolts I would probably have it done by now. Pound for pound wood is stronger than steel so given proper design and build it will do the job. It won't be the prettiest but it will likely outlive me.


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## matthewsx (Jul 20, 2019)

I’m sure the wood will work but I doubt it has a greater tensile strength than steel
Ever pick up a steel framing joist (metal 2 x 4)?


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## fixit (Jul 20, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> I’m sure the wood will work but I doubt it has a greater tensile strength than steel
> Ever pick up a steel framing joist (metal 2 x 4)?


I can fold a metal 2 X 4 in half by hand but I can't fold or break a wood 2 X 4 by hand. Metal studs are weak till sheating is added.


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## matthewsx (Jul 20, 2019)

fixit said:


> I can fold a metal 2 X 4 in half by hand but I can't fold or break a wood 2 X 4 by hand. Metal studs are weak till sheating is added.



Yes, that is true. But how much does it weigh? Perhaps a broomstick would be a better comparison.

Or from wikipedia.

A36 steel in plates, bars, and shapes with a thickness of less than 8 in (203 mm) has a minimum yield strength of 36,000 psi (250 MPa)

and engineeringtoolbox.com

Compression and bending strengths of wood species typically used in beams:


Maximum Stress _(psi)_


���

WetDryWetDryWetDryHorizontal Shear
_- τ -_Perpendicular to Grain
_- σ -_Parallel to Grain
_- σ -_Wood SpeciesBendingCompressionBirch, Yellow141716684777159601200Fir, Douglas1417166841762513601700Larch, Western1417166841762513601700Maple, Red127114954106158801100Oak, Black136916105908859201150Pine, Eastern White122214382233359601200Redwood1320155343365012001500
 

_1 psi (lb/in2) = 6895 Pa (N/m2)_
_1 MPa = 106 Pa_


_W_ood is a fine material. It is used for many, many things and will probably make a fine stand for the OP's mill. Unless he has a great deal of woodworking skill he will need to use steel in the form of screws, bolts, etc. to hold it together under the stresses it will have in this application. 

However, pound for pound wood is not stronger than steel by a very large margin. 

Cheers,

John


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## mattthemuppet2 (Jul 20, 2019)

MontanaLon said:


> I was actually looking at all thread today to tie the sides and front and back together diagonally.
> 
> Good point. I almost forgot to leave a gap between the bolt bins for the elevation screw. Will have to rearrange how I have that arranged.
> 
> How high is the standard stand for a machine this size? I've I have limited head room in the basement and would hate to have to drill a hole in the floor above to get the drawbar out. I see the overall height of the Grizzly on the stand is 68" so I am shooting for that or a touch lower.



the original stand is 20 3/4" high, with the roll around base and feet under that it's 25 1/2". That's still a little low for me at 6'2" but works ok. When I put a 4 1/2" riser on the head it should be just right. Loads of space still above the machine with a 9ft garage ceiling. The drawbar is also pretty short (18"?) so I wouldn't be too worried about that. If you can open the belt guard and have some space about that you should be fine.


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## stioc (Jul 21, 2019)

fixit said:


> I can fold a metal 2 X 4 in half by hand but I can't fold or break a wood 2 X 4 by hand. Metal studs are weak till sheating is added.



When you say a 2x4 I'm thinking a 2x4 rectangle tube. A mil stand would be made out of something like 1/8" 2x4. Am I misunderstanding something?


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## MontanaLon (Jul 21, 2019)

stioc said:


> When you say a 2x4 I'm thinking a 2x4 rectangle tube. A mil stand would be made out of something like 1/8" 2x4. Am I misunderstanding something?


Yes, a metal 2x4 is about 16-20 ga sheet metal folded into a u shaped channel that is 1.5"x3.5". Until they get sheet rock on them they behave like 20ga sheet metal with a bend in it. You can literally fold them up and toss them in the trash can but once they are sheet rocked they are pretty damn sturdy. Not in a structural sort of way but as a wall they hold up well.

I finished the stand. 4x4 legs, with 5/8" carriage bolts and nuts for a leveling feet. Cross pieces are 2x4's fastened to the 4x4's with 3/8"x6" grade 2 bolts, washers, lock washers and nuts. Diagonals bracing on each side is 2x4's fastened to the 4x4's with the same hardware as the cross pieces. Each wood joint is also held together with exterior grade wood glue. All horizontal wood surfaces are sealed with the same glue. Hoping that will keep the oil from soaking in. 

Base of mill is attached to legs of the stand with 3/8x4" lag bolts with washers and lock washers. Column of mill is already attached to the base. Now I am cleaning off the cosmoline and limited amount of swarf off the moving parts to relubricate it before I put it all back together. 

In looking over it while I took it apart and now as I clean it up and reassemble it appears I got lucky with a unit that has very few casting flaws. At least any that intrude into the sliding surfaces of the ways and dovetails. They all appear to be well cast. The ways themselves seem to be smooth but the gibs are rough. I haven't seen a surface yet that even remotely appears to have been scraped. At the cost of the machine I didn't expect that though. It does give plenty of room for DIY improvement down the road.


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