# "Pro-Fuel" vs Acetylene ??



## graham-xrf (Apr 16, 2021)

Let me say that I know very little about gas welding, but before even I try, I need to ask about the fuel gas.
SGS now seems to supply "Pro-Fuel" cylinder, with separate oxygen cylinder instead of Acetylene.

The claim is that acetylene primary flame is 3100°C. Pro Fuel is lower at 2950°C, which compares to Propane at 2600°C.
I understand Pro-Fuel might be propylene.

The claim is the pro-fuel secondary flame burns "twice as hot as acetylene" and is "much safer" to use.
Concentrating on the temperatures (and maybe "safety") might leave open how good it is for welding, as opposed to brazing or cutting.

The counter-claim is that acetylene _secondary_ flame combustion uses oxygen from the surrounding air providing a "shielding effect" that does not happen with propane, nor any of the acetylene substitutes. Apparently, you can't get a reducing flame focused weld, and all welds are oxidized. There also seems much issue about changing fuel nozzles to suit other fuels. For some, there is no substitute for a proper oxy-acetylene rig.

I get it that these things get very technical, very quickly, and should not be what concerns one like me, who has not done gas welding/brazing/heating, but for me, it affects the decision on whether I try gas flame stuff at all!

SGS are the supplier I preferred for my MIG Argon/CO2 bottle, because they do not have a recurring hire charge. One bottle deposit, returnable, forever!
It is a disappointment they don't also do acetylene any more.


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## Lo-Fi (Apr 16, 2021)

You've got a TIG welder... There's literally no reason to mess about with gas torches for welding or brazing. Everything happens inside a lovely argon shield regardless!


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## Asm109 (Apr 16, 2021)

Yep, With a Tig or MIG welder in the shop, the reason for a fuel gas rig goes waaaaaaaaaaaay down.
Heating steel so you can bend it is one reason.
Cutting with the "Blue wrench" is the other.


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## Lo-Fi (Apr 16, 2021)

You can happily heat steel to bend with the TIG torch if you have a mind! For cutting I'd buy a cheap plasma and forget about gas all together.


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## graham-xrf (Apr 16, 2021)

Lo-Fi said:


> You can happily heat steel to bend with the TIG torch if you have a mind! For cutting I'd buy a cheap plasma and forget about gas all together.


Indeed - and thanks for the reply.
I think that if I absolutely need to use a gas torch, I will simply ask my farmer pal out back of my place to help with his. They have the big bottles sets on wheels, and seemingly have a regular need to weld or cut, whatever, on farm machinery.

As to heating, and heat treating. You could go a long way with an acetylene torch, get it red, quench, clean up, then heat from one end until the pale straw colour gets to where you needs it to be. I have watched someone do this .. BUT .. I like things to be a bit more controlled.
I have been watching YT videos on DIY heat treat ovens, and for the small size I might use, I like that idea better. I do happen to have some nice condition salvaged PID temperature controllers.

I take it you meant you can use TIG to heat up a chunk of metal, as if in a gas flame, by playing the TIG arc over it without going for a melt pool.

So far, I have all the MIG kit, which is also capable of "Lift-TIG". The TIG capability is so far not tried out yet, but I will get there, though first I need to get a bottle of pure Argon, i.e. one without CO2 mixed in, and the 17V torch with valve on the handle, and the gas pipe, and a set of consumables. Need that be an eBay adventure?

In many ways, being the beginner at welding, means I rely on what you folk say pretty much entirely!


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## Lo-Fi (Apr 16, 2021)

graham-xrf said:


> take it you meant you can use TIG to heat up a chunk of metal, as if in a gas flame, by playing the TIG arc over it without going for a melt pool.



Yep, that's almost exactly what you're aiming for while TIG brazing too. It's not far off using an oxy torch: Get that too close or dwell too long and you'll start a molten pool just as easily! 
Worth adding that arc process is a good deal safer than oxy fuel too. It stops when you release the trigger, no large volume of volatile gas to store and handle, no explosion risk if you leave the gas open a crack... 
Grab a MAPP torch for general heating jobs and suchlike. Those I really do recommend in the home shop! Really, really handy and cheap to run. You can get at B&Q, Screwfix - just about everywhere.


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## Flyinfool (Apr 16, 2021)

Sometimes there is just no replacement for the OXY/ACT setup. It can still do things that no electric welder can do. Like weld or heat something that is broken down in a field miles from the nearest outlet. It takes a big expensive and heavy generator to power a welder. Then you need to also load the plasma cutter, that is 3 big pieces of equipment to load. 
If there was no need they would not still be selling them, All tools have their strengths and weaknesses. This goes for welding equipment too. There is no one tool that does it all well. although an Oxy/ACT is the closest to it.

I don't have a TIG welder yet, maybe my opinion will change when I finally get one and relearn how to use it.


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## DavidR8 (Apr 16, 2021)

I have only used my oxy/acetylene setup a few times but each time it was invaluable. I have a small 'B' tank for acetylene and I'm also setup to run propane if I wanted to.


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## graham-xrf (Apr 16, 2021)

DavidR8 said:


> I have only used my oxy/acetylene setup a few times but each time it was invaluable. I have a small 'B' tank for acetylene and I'm also setup to run propane if I wanted to.


I was thinking to do the same, having only a very small setup for that occasional use.
Pity the supplier with the good bottles return deal now does not do acetylene at all!

The point by @Flyinfool about portability use away from electricity supply is a powerful one!
In the same way a simple can of gasoline is a huge energy pack that can push a heavy vehicle more than 30 miles is easy to move to the point of need, the energy in the gas bottles can also be moved, though admittedly needing heavy bottles to contain it.

Given the acetylene supply situation, and that I can get to oxy+acetylene on the farm out back if I need to, I am persuaded by @Lo-Fi to stay with electricity.  The only stuff in gas bottles I would have is Argon and CO2.

Now - time to start checking out TIG torch and associated stuff


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## Weldingrod1 (Apr 16, 2021)

A tip: one of these will save you a lot of cursing when you accidentally leave your Argon on and ot leaks out..
Valve View
Turns red when you open the valve, back to yellow when you close it. Get both the 5 and 6 point types; when swapping Argon bottles I've gotten both kinds. And, before I got the second valve view, lost a bottle to leakage (scream)...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## graham-xrf (Apr 16, 2021)

My welder uses the high current European style power connectors.
For Lift-TIG, I need a cable-to -torch type that comes out with separate tails, one for power, the other for gas. The torch has to have it's own valve knob. Apparently WP17 FV for 200A

For MIG, the gas connects into the back of the welder, and comes through with the standard Euro connector.
For Lift-TIG, one has to use the MMA terminals, and bring the gas in separately.
There are all manner of adapter, converters, Y-junction TIG cables, but not easy to spot the correct combination on eBay pictures.
Also, the only one's I have seen that seem to be correct candidates are China import.

I also wonder why the prices for the complete torch kit with 4m of 200A cable range from about £32 to £256. The intrinsic value can hardly span an eight-fold multiple without the higher priced one being a poor deal, regardless the quality, even if the low end is utter junk!
We don't need cables made of HiFi nutter oxygen-free copper, and handles decorated with gemstones and signed by some welding hero!

Eventually - I will figure this TIG thing out.


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## Nutfarmer (Apr 17, 2021)

Maybe I am just old school. Have tig ,mig,and plasma ,but the oxygen acetylene torch is indispensable around the farm. Heating parts to loosen rust, blow out bearings,heat parts to straighen ,and braze broken cast iron. A week doesn't go by that the torch isn't used.


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## erikmannie (Apr 17, 2021)

I would never want to be without my gas cart (acetylene & oxygen). I often end up working on thin steel tubing, and the gas welding is well suited to “the action unfolding slowly” (or, “less blowing holes in the thin material”).

O/A brazing is handy for filling imperfections (e.g. underfill or undercut) on thin steel weldments. You don’t have to worry about melting the base material; this makes for a repair job where you don’t have to stress out about screwing up the workpiece.

Gas welding is slow, though. Sometimes it seems to take 3-5 times as long to do a job. If you are not in a hurry, however, gas welding can be very relaxing.

Compared to TIG, setting up for gas welding & brazing is faster. It takes me a fair amount longer to set up for TIG, and I still always seem to forget at least one thing when I sit down to start TIG welding (e.g., TIG finger, turn on the Argon).


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