# Possible Heavy 10 Purchase Feedback



## Hozzie (Oct 27, 2016)

ok, so I have asked about a few different lathes over the last few weeks and appreciate everyone feedback.  I almost went ahead and ordered a new PM1236 (or maybe even a PM1340gt) today.  They are 3-4 weeks out so in my usual non-comittal way, I am still looking.

I am headed to visit my brother so I figured I would see what is available around him and I ran across this heavy 10.  I am new to Lathes, but it appears to be in good shape at first glance compared to others I have seen.  I would of course check it out and run it, but I am wondering about opinions from those who know these machines well.  It only has a 24" bed, but I think that is actually ok for me.  I am really only looking to chamber and thread some of my own rimfire barrels and make some small items like a bore guide.  I would do that through the headstock.  I don't ever plan to profile a barrel.

It has a 3 jaw, 4 jaw, and 5c collet chuck.

He is asking $1950 for the lathe.  I would have to either rent a truck and bring it back or pay to have it shipped.  Not sure if it is worth it or not.  I am from Nashville and you don't see these for sale around here very often.   I would appreciate any feedback from those of you that know way more about these than me.   The price seems good, but I may be missing something.  Or, should I just go ahead and order a PM?   Thanks!

Pics:


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## woodchucker (Oct 27, 2016)

Looks like a 10k not a heavy 10.. not enough knowledge, but the heavy 10 I saw looked much different.
Looks in good condition.


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## Hozzie (Oct 27, 2016)

It could be.   I don't know these lathes hardly at all other than I know what they are and I know the heavy 10's are used a lot for gunsmithing.  From the pictures I compared it to, it looked like some labeled as heavy 10's.  This was why I wanted to ask.    Thanks for the response.


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## omni_dilletante (Oct 27, 2016)

Looks like a heavy 10 to me.  10k has rounded corners on the carriage.

Looks like a very good lathe to me.  I have an older heavy 10R that came with more tooling and I paid much more.  But that is in the NW where these are much more rare.

Only thing I don't see is a taper attachment, but I am not sure that is important to you.

To me it looks very good.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 27, 2016)

Note that the bed size is the overall bed length, including the bed under the headstock and tailstock. The maximum distance between centers is just that, the maximum length of stock you can turn between centers.  Just eyeballing the lathe you posted, it looks to me like perhaps 24" between centers and perhaps a bed length of about 36-42".  When you are talking about length of lathes, you must know which dimension is being referenced.  Bed length is rarely quoted on newer lathes, almost always it is maximum distance between centers.


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## Hozzie (Oct 27, 2016)

Thanks.  I actually kind of thought it was between centers, but he has it listed as a 10x24 and I wasn't sure if it was actually considered a 10x36. 

I am not worried about a taper attachment at this point.  Really just looking to chamber some 22 barrels for my BR guns (after I play with some junk barrels)


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## LucknowKen (Oct 27, 2016)

Hey Hozzie: I would love that model lathe in my shop. The accessories which are not pictured might cost 1/2 as much as that machine.
Also the motor voltage is not mentioned. Disassemble and drag home what you can, ship the rest.
lk


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## Hozzie (Oct 27, 2016)

I am flying, so taking parts home probably isn't an option.  Worst case, I thought about renting a small uhaul if it is as good as it looks.


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## LucknowKen (Oct 27, 2016)

Another concern might be the size of the spindle thru hole.


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## Hozzie (Oct 27, 2016)

Yeah, that is on my list.  As long as it is 1 1/16 or bigger, I think I am fine.  My barrels don't have sights and they are only .900, so I just need a little extra room for comfort.


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## DoogieB (Oct 27, 2016)

I own a SB 10K (the light 10) and I can tell you with 100% certitude that the lathe pictured is a Heavy 10.

It's a later model with the large dials which is good, probably in the sixties.  You could look up the manufactured date with the serial number.  Also looks like it has the extra-range QCGB which is nice.  You need to find out the spindle bore size as they did make some with the small bore (10R).  I think this particular lathe has a threaded spindle and not the D1-4 cam lock.

Beyond that, you can't tell much from pictures over the internet.  It can look pretty but be completely worn out.  Remember, an old lathe is going to need some work (at least a felt overhaul) even in the best of conditions, so if that is scary you would be better-off with a new lathe.


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## Hozzie (Oct 27, 2016)

Thanks Doogie, that is the kind of feedback I was looking for.   Is not having a D1-4 spindle a huge deal?   I know it makes it easier to change chucks, but is there any accuracy advantage?

I should have some better answers tomorrow. Hopefully it is still available so I can check it out Saturday.

I am not afraid of a little work, but don't want to do a complete overhaul.  I am also thinking I can spend $2500 by the time I get this home or $4-$7k on a PM.  That is a pretty big difference.  Granted, they would have DRO's.


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## DoogieB (Oct 27, 2016)

Actually I would say with a threaded spindle it's easier to change chucks, but a cam-lock should be _slightly_ more accurate and you don't have to worry about the chuck spinning off if you run the lathe in reverse.  That's why they are more desirable and increase the value of the lathe.

To replace the felts you pretty much have to pull the lathe apart and put it back together again.  I did it on mine and actually found it interesting, but it might not be everyone's cup-of-tea.

If you got the money, it's pretty hard to beat a 1340GT from what I've read in these forums.


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## Hozzie (Oct 27, 2016)

I could do it, but I really don't plan on using it all of the time and if I can save $4k on the lathe, I can buy a nice mill now vs waiting.   Trying to keep my cash layout reasonable for the actual amount of work I will use them for.


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## dlane (Oct 27, 2016)

Here's the one i got 


This is it after a month .5 


Took a little doing, but I like it, 
this is it now drawers are good.


Sprint car tire mats work good too.


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## dlane (Oct 28, 2016)

Look up how to Buy a lathe here , check bed ware , spindle , saddle, compound,
Taper attachment's have telescopic sliding x feed screw & gear shafts $$,


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## toolman87 (Oct 28, 2016)

Wow looks like a great original heavy 10,large dials,thread dial, 5c collets even looks like you might have a buck set true chuck,that also is a great price for the lathe.Do search on heavy 10 you will see many think this is perfect home shop lathe.USA is nice also.
fred


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## Hozzie (Oct 28, 2016)

I am going to go check it out tomorrow.  It is 3 phase which is good, I will just have to get a VFD which isn't a big deal.  I hope it is as good in person as it is in the pictures.


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## Hozzie (Oct 28, 2016)

Sorry, but another question.  Assuming the machine is mechanically sound, what is the most you think it is worth?  I think I can buy it for $1850 and then I will look to ship it.  I expect that is probably $500.  Is this lathe worth $2350 plus another $250 for a VFD?  Again, it does have a 3 jaw, 4 jaw, and collet chuck.

I would then basically be at $1000 difference compared to a new PM1236 with 3 year warranty.  Decisions, Decisions....


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## mikey (Oct 28, 2016)

I have absolutely no business commenting on this. I don't own a South Bend machine (used them, though) and I don't own a PM (like what I SEE Matt do for others, though). I was just reflecting on my own past dilemma about 5 years ago and sympathized with you.

I was looking at a really well tooled Sheldon for about what that heavy 10 cost and it was in nice shape. What I really wanted was an Emco Super 11 but those are rarer than hen's teeth around here. I also considered PM and after really thinking about it, I was just about ready to buy one from Matt when my dream lathe magically appeared on CL and I jumped. My Super 11 had less than 100 hours on it, came with nearly 4K worth of tooling and accessories so it was a no brainer. BUT I remember what I was thinking at the time.

I had to decide whether I wanted to have a brand new PM lathe, purchased from a company with a stellar reputation for support after the sale. The lathe would be new, with a warranty,would have come with a D1-4 camlock and would have come with most of the accessories I needed to get up and running. OR I could have the Sheldon and would have had to contend with 50 years of wear on every single sliding component, hidden problems and then have the associated issues with finding a steady rest, follow rest, an other gear that I needed to have a decent set up - and those pieces would have their own wear issues, too. Then I would have had to transport the thing. To be honest, the wear and tear on the ways and the leadscrew (the Sheldon didn't have a drive shaft for power feed) was what gave me the most pause about that Sheldon. My mind was made up to go with a PM until that Emco popped up and then it was no contest.

I enjoy restoring old machines and giving them a new lease on life, and I've done it many times. There is joy in joining the "Old Iron" club, too. For me, though, a lathe is a key machine in my shop. I want it to be accurate and I don't want to work around 50 years of wear and tear, so I bought what was essentially a new machine. No regrets, but I sure wish I could talk to the guy who ended up with that Sheldon. It looked as good in pics as your potential Heavy 10 does and I wonder what could have been.


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## Hozzie (Oct 28, 2016)

Thanks Mike.  Funny enough, there is an emco available very close to me right now.   Problem is I can't run it.  That scares me.  Maybe I should looking closer at it.  Jeez, nothing is ever easy .

Here is the emco.  http://nashville.craigslist.org/tls/5840020166.html


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## omni_dilletante (Oct 28, 2016)

Last time I saw an Emco like that in Oregon it sold for $6500.


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## Hozzie (Oct 28, 2016)

I asked the guy for the video he mentions.  I don't really think I would use the attached mill, but who knows.  I had planned to get a separate mill.  I guess the fact that it appears to be a metric machine isn't the end of the world considering I will probably get a dro anyway.    

I will still go look at the south bend.  No need to be in a hurry.  If it is meant to be, it will be.


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## mikey (Oct 28, 2016)

That lathe looks like it has seen some action but its hard to tell from pics. The thing that give me pause at the moment is that it is a metric machine, not Imperial. That means you have to work in the metric system; not a big deal, as most of our brothers across the pond do this all the time. I would personally not prefer to do this, though.

Just so you know, the S11 has induction hardened ways and tends to wear slower as a result. The lathe is assembled like a Swiss watch - everything goes together without slop and it is as simplified and logical as it can get. Minor touches, like a hardened button on the saddle where it contacts the carriage stop or the ability to adjust the crossfeed and compound leadscrew nuts to eliminate backlash are things you don't notice but make a difference. It was assembled to a "toolroom" quality standard, which means there is a DIN spec they followed. 

You should know that Emco no longer supports this lathe so parts will have to be purchased either used or new old stock. Parts for this lathe are hard to come by because they just don't break very often. Accordingly, parts will cost you if you find them. 

I have no regrets. My spindle has zero runout, is quiet and very accurate. No backlash on the cross feed or compound, which is really nice. My lathe has a 115V, 2 HP motor and is an Imperial model. It will take a 0.20" cut in steel without even slowing down;  I have to slow it down a notch to go deeper. It will get up to 2500 rpm or so and that is fast enough for HSS, not for carbide tooling.

By the way, that milling attachment is highly regarded. With a full, independent base it will go for over 3K all by itself. I never liked the idea of having a heavy milling attachment hanging off the side of my lathe bed and if this were mine, I would remove it and find a base for it or sell it. 

3K for this machine, if you don't mind working in metric, is a steal. That is, if the machine is in good shape. It will clean up fine but you need to look at the ways and gears. The headstock gears run in an oil bath; you can see them by removing the four screws on top of the headstock. Check to be sure there are no missing teeth. If he has a change gear set, grab it - they are hardened and ground and are worth over $250.00 by themselves and came with a carrier spud in the set; make sure its all there. The change gears should also be inspected - three screws in back of the headstock removes the cover so you can see them.

Again, this is a metric lathe. If you want an Imperial then let it go and consider that SB or a PM. If you do buy it, I would sell the milling attachment on ebay and recover most of the cost of the lathe and buy a separate milling machine later. Good luck with this.


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## mikey (Oct 28, 2016)

Hozzie said:


> I asked the guy for the video he mentions.  I don't really think I would use the attached mill, but who knows.  I had planned to get a separate mill.  I guess the fact that it appears to be a metric machine isn't the end of the world considering I will probably get a dro anyway.
> 
> I will still go look at the south bend.  No need to be in a hurry.  If it is meant to be, it will be.



You're right - a DRO will negate the everyday use hassles of a metric lathe BUT remember that you will have to cut threads, too, and that is what would give me pause. 

I would go for a nice new Imperial PM before I would buy a metric lathe ... but that's just me.


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## Hozzie (Oct 28, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback.  I tend to agree with you.  It may be a good deal, but if it does nothing but frustrate me, it probably isn't worth it.


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## Thunderbird (Oct 29, 2016)

Obviously someone liked the Emco as its listing has already been deleted.

Did you end up with that one, hozzie?


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## Hozzie (Oct 29, 2016)

I  bought the South Bend.  It ran good and all gears worked well and didn't have any weird noises.   I don't know enough to know if the ways were good, bad, or other, but it moved smoothly and had a little more tightness near the end of the bed which I think is mostly expected.   

I paid $1700 and probably another $400-$500 shipping so I don't think I overpaid.


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## mikey (Oct 29, 2016)

Hope it turns out to be as good as it looks, Hozzie. You got it for a good price, I think. I've seen Heavy 10's go for a lot more that were in worse condition. If the ways are good, it will serve you well. One gross and quick way to tell is to bring the saddle near the chuck, in the area that most work is done on a lathe, and tighten the saddle locking screw just enough to provide a touch of friction as you move the saddle hand wheel a bit. Then run the saddle down towards the tailstock. If you make it all the way down without too much trouble then the ways are probably okay. If it binds half way down the bed then the wear in the ways may be a bit much.


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## hennesse (Dec 27, 2016)

Hozzie,

Your new Heavy Ten looks quite nice.  It has the 70-speed gearbox and the slap-lever clutch, so it appears to be an early-1960s or later.  The slap-lever clutch is supposed to be a big improvement over the older star-wheel.  Your lathe appears to be in overall really nice condition.

I picked up a very similar one in early December.  Mine is a Catalog# CL199A, Serial# 11957 RKR13.  My serial number, as best as I can tell from
the wswells list,  puts it around a 1960.  Yours has a different cabinet, so  think yours is a few years later (younger) than mine.

There's a gazillion of these lathes around, but very few original catalog-like documents.  Here's the best I can tell about mine...

The Catalog #  CL 199 A - CL 
CL = thread nose spindle.  
199 is the catalog model number, which changed every few years, pedestal or cabinet, etc.
A=4' bed   (Y=3 ? , Z=3-1/2 ?)  

The Serial # 11957  RKR 13
11957 = serial number (re-started from zero in 1948 ??)
R = 10"
K = Quick change gearbox
R = Regular spindle hole (L=large)
13 - model number (kinda internal factory version number)

Yours, probably being a few years later than mine, might be a 10-L which can take 1-1/16 collets (meaning a 1-1/16 piece of round bar can fit through it) instead of 1", and the Catalog model# might be 187, and the serial number might have RKL in it.  

Let us know about your Catalog and Serial#'s - maybe we can plug some of the gaps in the knowledge of these great lathes that built America.

Dave


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## Turbinechopper (Jan 29, 2017)

Hozzie said:


> ok, so I have asked about a few different lathes over the last few weeks and appreciate everyone feedback.  I almost went ahead and ordered a new PM1236 (or maybe even a PM1340gt) today.  They are 3-4 weeks out so in my usual non-comittal way, I am still looking.
> 
> I am headed to visit my brother so I figured I would see what is available around him and I ran across this heavy 10.  I am new to Lathes, but it appears to be in good shape at first glance compared to others I have seen.  I would of course check it out and run it, but I am wondering about opinions from those who know these machines well.  It only has a 24" bed, but I think that is actually ok for me.  I am really only looking to chamber and thread some of my own rimfire barrels and make some small items like a bore guide.  I would do that through the headstock.  I don't ever plan to profile a barrel.
> 
> ...


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## Turbinechopper (Jan 29, 2017)

Hello, I'm new to this forum and already am amazed by the wealth of information here. I'm hoping one of you could help me to identify
the following Southbend lathe type by this model number:  CL0370RD
Thanks very much.


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## LucknowKen (Jan 29, 2017)

Hello there Turbinechopper:
Welcome to THM.
The lathe you are asking about is a UMD 10K, threaded spindle, 4-1/2 foot bed.
The serial # will give you an idea of the year of manufacture.

http://www.southbendlathe.com/products/catalog-numbers/explanation
http://www.southbendlathe.com/products/catalog-numbers/10-inch-lathes

You can download the Catalog for that machine here:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/
Feel free to start a thread of your own.
Many guys here will miss your questions otherwise.
lk


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## Turbinechopper (Jan 30, 2017)

Thanks!


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## Silverbullet (Jan 31, 2017)

You will not be sorry , your getting an American Made precision piece of equipment. It has more on it then most of the China LATHES. Bet it will outlast you if you take care of it. All it will need is cleaning and oiling daily. A little care removing and mounting chucks . Get yourself a gallon of way oil and light machine oil for the bearings . I bet it will take a few years to use those up. YUPP you bought a good lathe , be safe and make chips. Good luck have fun.


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