# Monarch 10EE rebuild  10Hp VFD no backgear



## Karl_T (Apr 9, 2021)

I bought my second 10EE a while back





						Machines Used | Monarch 10EE Toolroom Lathe with Taper Attachment and Chucks
					

Tool Post, Pneumatic Collet Closer and Installed Chuck NOT Included



					www.machinesused.com
				




After playing with the existing DC motor and drive, I gave up on repairing it. I did not try super hard, not too excited about maintaining an antique system. So all the old stuff got ripped out.

I have another thread where I got help with motor and VFD selection








						Which VFD for 10 hp spindle
					

I am seriously considering using this 10 hp 900 RPM motor to power the spindle on my 10EE https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-hp-electric-motor-284t-3-phase-900-rpm-severe-duty-PE284T-10-8C/184606676695  I have single phase only to run it. What would be a good VFD choice for this machine? NOT buying the...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




My first 10EE lathe used a 5hp 3phase motor and VFD with a backgear. the machine has worked WONDERFULLY  for 20 years now.

For this build I decided to go with a larger 10 Hp VFD rated motor to give low end torque without the need for a backgear. Simplifies the build quite a bit.

Here's pics of yesterday and today's work.  had to get tricky to put the motor in place. made a "U" shaped fixture to hoist the motor so it could tuck inside the lathe cavity. the entire lathe is on a pallet truck to move left - right. the hoist is on a rail to move in - out.

yesterday, built a little fixture to hold a 5 turn potentiometer on the existing speed control knob. It is not quite assembled - I will replace the opaque plastic tube with a more flexible clear 1/4" plastic tube and clamp in place. This keeps the pot from being too rigidly attached and allow the operator to feel pot end of travel without breaking it. Soldering of wires will wait until all mechanical work is completed.


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## markba633csi (Apr 10, 2021)

Deek did a nice conversion on his: 








						10ee VFD Conversion
					

Hi All,  I wasn't going to post my conversion, but my buddy talked me into it saying he thought it might help others facing the same issues.  Here's my story...  I've been wanting a 10ee for some time.  Out here on the west coast they are few and far between.  I haunted auctions, used equipment...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Heychris (Apr 10, 2021)

I completely agree with your decision.  I've done VFD conversions on several lathes.  No need for backgear.  Interestingly, I noticed an article about a new motor company turntide.  They have a great motor comparison chart.  I wish the new motors were already available.  I'd consider one.  For now I'm doing a 5hp motor and VFD


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## Karl_T (Apr 11, 2021)

OK, lot of work last couple days, not much to see.

Got all the original wiring stripped out along with all the original conduit.  Only a few components are going to be re-used.  Found the three wires for the forward/off/reverse lever and labeled them  F  C  R  for forward common reverse.  EXTRA CREDIT - I could not remove the plate shown in the pic. It was still tight after removing the four slot head screws. Beating on it with a chisel etc. was no help.  HOW to do it??  Also there are five conductors here, what could the other two be for?

I will also re-use the stop start pushbutton and wire it to the main power contactor.  Found two wires for the coolant pump with the third wire taped off so it must be a single phase unit. The switch for this is in  a terrible position - on the back side of the headstock. Think I will change that.

Got the spindle motor plate drill and tapped to mount the motor and have it all installed.  I had lost one of the rubber mounts for the motor plate and had to clean the whole shop up to find it. So now I got a nice neat shop as part of the deal.

The project will go dormant waiting for parts.


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## Beckerkumm (Apr 11, 2021)

Thanks for the thread.  I'm doing a vfd conversion on a Smart Brown 1024 which has a 3.6-1 clutch and a 7.85-1 back gear so a four pole 5 hp motor works for me.  Did you go with a vector duty 6 pole to get the range needed with no back gear?  Dave


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## Karl_T (Apr 12, 2021)

I was originally focusing on getting an 8 pole  (900 RPM) motor, see link to my previous thread. I was convinced to go instead for a 4 pole (1800 RPM) VFD rated motor and pulley it down more.



			IDVSM3774T


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## Beckerkumm (Apr 12, 2021)

Looks basically the same but TEFC rather than TENV.  Will you need to put an auxiliary fan on the motor ?  I've seen computer fans activated when the vfd drops below a set hz to help cool the motor.  Since these are meant for a wide range I don't know if that is necessary.  Sweet motor.  What range do you intend to run it?  Sorry if you answered earlier on the other thread.  I gave up reading through the crap answers you got.  Dave


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## Karl_T (Apr 12, 2021)

I will keep trying slower and slower while threading to find the bottom end. probably start trials at about 5 hz. If that works try 3 if not try 8, ya da ya da.

no plans to add a fan


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## Beckerkumm (Apr 12, 2021)

I don't think you will find a bottom end.  You can go down to .5 hz and still not be able to stop the spindle.  Whether the finish suffers when the hz are that low is a different question.  I think you will be fine but it is nice to have someone actually verify it.  Dave


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## Karl_T (Apr 12, 2021)

I had ordered a P1 series hitachi VFD a couple weeks ago. Just talked with drives warehouse - its now on back order. So I am going with the WJ200 drive.


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## Heychris (Apr 12, 2021)

a couple weeks ago I replaced my tico microdrive in my southbend model A with a wj200.  I was very happy with the install.  It was pretty easy.  I only had to call Drives Warehouse once.  I definitely appreciate their customer service.


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## Beckerkumm (Apr 12, 2021)

The WJ200 is what I have too.  I had all the programming instructions for a lathe conversion from Mark Jacobs so I took the easy route.  Dave


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## Karl_T (Apr 24, 2021)

WOOHOO  - the VFD is in and comes on!

Got Estop wired and working, coolant pump wired and working. VFD comes on.

VFD wants to run at 0 speed, got to figure how to change that from panel. Not like all other VFDs I have used where there is a little pot. want to get it running with defaults first.

There is a large WARNING tape over the brake and reactor connections. Want to double check what contacts these wire to. 

_ guess its time to start reading the manual.  programming these is something I seldom do._


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## Karl_T (Apr 24, 2021)

Hmm... Not seeing how to run it different speeds from keypad. Must be buried in the manual someplace.

So, looked up wiring pot. looks like pot ground goes to L terminal
                                                         pot reference goes to H terminal
                                                         pot slider goes to O terminal
see pic.

Might as well do forward off reverse

contact power to P24 terminal
          Forwad contact to 1 terminal
          Reverse contact to 2 terminal

i will have to look up programming to make these work 


Also found brake resistor goes to  P/+ and RB terminals
                  DC reator goes to PD/+1 and P/+ terminals 

(I am going to use this forum to keep my notes on this part of the job in case i have to re do this again later)


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## mksj (Apr 24, 2021)

You might look at the attached document for some programming options. Instead of the contactors you are using a maintained switch for the run commands. You want to have the USP active all the time to prevent the machine restarting if it powers down with it in a run command mode or consider using some relays for run commands. There is also the issue if you engage the E-Stop and you have an active run command, the machine will restart. Typically there is a power relay which is latched in the stop spindle position only and drops out with power loss or E-Stop engagement. With the WJ200 there is a simple single relay design that I used many years ago with this type of latching system if you are interested.
Mark


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## Karl_T (Apr 24, 2021)

What an AWSUM write up. I have read through it twice and will do a third time before programming.

Now, i do not make bulk changes. get something wrong, it don't work right and you don't know what is wrong.

OK if I attach the pot and change A001 to 1, should the machine run??

Then I will attach the forward reverse to  terminals 1 and 2 and change A002 to 01.

Then start working my way through stopping to test frequently.


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## Karl_T (Apr 25, 2021)

OK, question of the moment.  The logic connectors are just push the wire in, spring locked in place. How the heck do you release them?  made a mistake on the wrong L terminal. Also have to remove the P24-PLC jumper.  I tried pushing on the orange part, no joy and I was going to break something.

Close up pic of terminals:


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## mksj (Apr 25, 2021)

Use a small flat jewelers screw driver to completely depress the orange tab. Gently push the wire in then should pull out. If you force it pulling out first it can bend the catch down and not release. See my notes below.





​


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## Karl_T (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks, only takes a second when you know how. In looking over the manual for this issue, i came across wiring the inputs sinking. So, I just put common on L, forward on 1 and reverse on 2. it works. Any reason to change to sourcing like you show?

MAN DID YOU EVER SAVE ME TIME AND FRUSTRATION!!!  Went clear through your cheat sheet and machine runs GREAT!

Also played with the Estop leaving the machine in forward. Hit Estop then reset - machine will not turn.  Turn power off with lever in forward then re apply power - machine will not turn.  These two trials really the same thing as Estop kills power to VFD. BTW, i had never seen that option to have braking with power off - MAN is that nice. Anyway, I am not seeing a need to add a latching relay on the forward/ reverse switch. Am I missing something? Another relay is no big deal.

One little thing I'd like to change, machine will go clear to 0 speed with pot all the way down. There must be a parameter for min speed?  Did not see it on quick pass through listing.  maybe one for min frequency? Or do i need to add a resistor?

Other thing I'd like to look at. this is a tool room lathe NOT a big beefy hogging machine. I went with 10 Hp only to get torque at very low frequency. I'd like machine to kick out if some idiot tries a huge deep cut at high feed.  Any way to limit amps and not hurt low end torque?

I want to THANK EVERYONE AGAIN FOR THE GREAT HELP. I also ran this build thread over on practical machinst because that's where the expertise is on the 10EE.  All I got was crap and derision.


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## Nightshift (Apr 25, 2021)

Karl_T said:


> <snip> Found the three wires for the forward/off/reverse lever and labeled them  F  C  R  for forward common reverse.  EXTRA CREDIT - I could not remove the plate shown in the pic. It was still tight after removing the four slot head screws. Beating on it with a chisel etc. was no help.  HOW to do it??  Also there are five conductors here, what could the other two be for? <snip>


Karl, the other two wires on the rotary F/C/R switch are for neutral safety. You wire them so you can't energize with the rotary switch in either F or R. Bill


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## Nightshift (Apr 25, 2021)

Here's how the switch is wired. In these pics, F is black, R is green, common is red and neutral safety is blue. Bill


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## Karl_T (Apr 25, 2021)

Nightshift said:


> Karl, the other two wires on the rotary F/C/R switch are for neutral safety. You wire them so you can't energize with the rotary switch in either F or R. Bill


*BINGO!  wire this ahead of the reset button. Machine will not reset unless in neutral.*


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## Nightshift (Apr 25, 2021)

You got it. Easy-peasy.


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## Nightshift (Apr 25, 2021)

My 52 10EE has been working great until last week. Originally switched out the MG 30 yrs ago to a Boston Gear Ratiotrol using original 3hp  Reliance DC motor. Now when I energize the control, it comes on but will suddenly just die. Then its hard to start again. Think the controller has something frying and since its all electronic I can't troubleshoot. Soooo ... I noticed your thread on PM (along with the BS) and followed you here cause I need to re-do everything similar. I already have a 5hp 3-phase 1740 rpm induction motor. Its a cheap china motor so I'm not sure if I should use it or not. And I need to get a large enough VFD to run the motor from single phase. I was initially thinking of making a plate to join the new motor with the backgear but since I haven't used the backgear in 30 yrs I might just follow your lead and take it out also. Bill


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## Nightshift (Apr 25, 2021)

Couple questions ...

1. what ohm pot (5 turn?) for your speed control? I like your setup to use original speed knob.
2. tell me about your pulley sizes. I'll determine my belt lengths once I decide what motor I'm using.

Cheers, Bill


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## Karl_T (Apr 25, 2021)

found a lower frequency set point A 62.  Set it to slowest speed.




SORRY TO NOT KNOW HOW TO DELETE UNEEDED PIC BELOW.


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## Karl_T (Apr 25, 2021)

Nightshift said:


> Couple questions ...
> 
> 1. what ohm pot (5 turn?) for your speed control? I like your setup to use original speed knob.
> 2. tell me about your pulley sizes. I'll determine my belt lengths once I decide what motor I'm using.
> ...


1 K ohm 5 turn mcmaster part number 7436K34.  it works PERFECTLY!

I used a 2.37" OD pulley to give exactly 2.5:1 ratio.  My motor will spin up to 6000 RPM to give 2500 RPM max. Most motors will not spin that fast. i would pulley it for 2500 spindle RPM max.


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## mksj (Apr 25, 2021)

Set lower part of frequency range for speed pot:
A062 Frequency lower limit would set to 6 Hz which is the same as the JOG frequency.
A011 [O] input active range start frequency would set to 6 Hz

As far as speed pots I have two that I recommend based on their construction and durability (something like 10 million turns). The ohms depends on the VFD, most do fines with 1K, 2K or 5K linear.
3 Turn Wire-wound Potentiometer ETI MW22B-3-5K 5% 1W 








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Single turn ETI 1K 882-SP22G-1K or 2K SP22G-2K


			https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ETI-Systems/SP22G-2K?qs=%2Fha2pyFaduggkFJVp8Guca0GbhQCjt%252B82uKC3EtzLaY%3D
		


VFD's, hard to go wrong with the Hitachi WJ200 for price, performance and durability. I would go with an inverter vector motor, the speed range is much wider, and really a requirement if one does not have a back gear (low range gearbox).


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## mksj (Apr 25, 2021)

Source or sink is not an issue unless you use logic diodes which only conduct in one direction. These are sometimes needed in particular with the WJ200 for the jog function which requires activation of the jog programmed input and a direction input at the same time. So one either needs to use two switch blocks on the jog button or a single switch block with a direction diode.

Typically I do not have the E-Stop kill power to the VFD, I have it disconnect the P24/L going to the run inputs and one can also do the STO mode. VFD's if turned off and then turned back on in less than 5 minutes (frequent on/off cycles) will cause failure of the VFD sooner (start relay which decrease the input surge and the capacitors). If you only use the E-Stop to completely shut down the VFD infrequently, then fine to cut power, per the programming it uses the regenerative energy to help in braking, but it is not as quick as when it is powered.

Issue with using an E-Stop to interrupt the run inputs, is upon release of the E-Stop (if the VFD is powered) and you have an active run command the VFD will restart. Using something like the STO inputs there are programming parameters that will prevent this, but one must know how to program all the inputs. In addition when using the STO inputs it basically shuts down the VFD output section so when activated you do not have any active braking (motor stops with no braking). Reason that I use a power latching relay as opposed to an VFD power input contactor. Just how I do my systems for a hobbyist setting.


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## Karl_T (Apr 25, 2021)

WOO HOO!

BLUE CHIPS IN THE PAN, MIRROR FINISH ON PART.

Ran a deep cut at 3Hz - 36 RPM machine did not even slow down.

ran a skin cut at 200 Hz - 2500 RPM - great finish machine did not even blink.

Put a whole bunch of chips in the pan at reasonable speeds and feeds.   this machine is tight and SWEEEEEEET!

It is balky on engaging threading - bet this has not been done in a coons age. needs looking in to but not right away.

Next I am installing an Acurite DRO - best one made.


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## Nightshift (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks guys. Much appreciated.

mksj, I wire my e-stops the same way to leave the VFDs energized but require the run/start button to restart. Allows the machine to restart without delay. Cheers, Bill


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## Karl_T (Apr 26, 2021)

Just a couple final questions before calling this VFD project complete.


This lathe is a tool room lathe not a big beefy hogging machine. 10hp is too much motor except at very low speeds.


H105 is rated current 0.0 to 1.0 times current capacity of inverter. would setting this lower make the inverter kick out at lower current settings?


H103 is motor capacity, anything here to help? 

B022   is overload restriction, maybe lower this value??


or are there other parameters to look at?





H117 starting current  can be set from 20 to 100 default is 70


There is a spindle lock on the lathe. would setting this to a low value kick out the motor easily if accidentally started with spindle locked?





Again,  THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR HELP.


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## rabler (Apr 26, 2021)

On mine the spindle lock includes a factory installed switch.  If yours does too, you should be able to wire that into the VFD controls to prevent starting with the lock active.


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## Karl_T (Apr 26, 2021)

rabler said:


> On mine the spindle lock includes a factory installed switch.  If yours does too, you should be able to wire that into the VFD controls to prevent starting with the lock active.



Not on mine. I'd do that in a second if one can be ordered. Could you take pics of it?  i will ask about buying it.


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## mksj (Apr 26, 2021)

H Group, must be set to the motor name plate values otherwise the motor will not run well. If you adjust the starting power it will not effect the running power. I would adjust B022 to maybe 100 -130% range, this might effect low speed power when initiating a deep cut or say drilling with a large drill.  The issue with all this is that low speed power will be decreased. Make sure you do a motor autotune with the belts off when you are all done and then set H002 = 2 to load the new motor constants.

On spindle lock, cover lock, etc. typically you can use a small limit switch that goes open and interrupts the signalling for the run commands or is in serial with the E-Stop. Usually a roller or plunger type, although I also use proximity switches for some systems.


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## rabler (Apr 26, 2021)




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## Karl_T (Apr 27, 2021)

Say, the H100s do not show up for VFD programming even with the B31 and B37 set. Any ideas?


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## mksj (Apr 27, 2021)

The only motor parameters that should need H003 and H004. I do not see any H100 parameters in my manual and the H020 parameters are for a second motor


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## Nightshift (May 4, 2021)

rabler said:


> View attachment 363954
> View attachment 363955


Rabler I noticed your lathe has the micro switch interrupt to prevent starting with the lock pin engaged. Mine doesn't have this micro switch feature and I wish it did as I have (more than a few times) started the lathe back up with the lock engaged. Do you have any drawings on how this micro switch was added to the lock assy? I assume from your picture here it must be a plunger-type micro switch. I'd really like to modify mine to add this electric lock-out interrupt while I have my lathe out of service. What year is your 10EE? Mine is a '52. I don't know when Monarch started putting these electric lockouts on or maybe it was just an optional upgrade. Here's what mine looks like. Bill


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## rabler (May 4, 2021)

Nightshift
Mine is a ‘64.  Looks like they milled through the casing to mount the limit switch, right between the two diagonal bolts that hold the assembly onto the headstock.  Vintagemachinery.org has parts diagrams for a 1965 model IIRC.  You could check those for details.  Not sure how much they show for this.


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## Karl_T (May 4, 2021)

Yep, machining the existing stop pin for a limit switch AND then finding one that would work looked difficult to me.

Here's my solution. Put an AL plate over stop pin to hold it out when running. Put it over the Estop button when in use. Not idiot proof, but should stop my absent minded starting the machine with pin engaged.


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## Nightshift (May 4, 2021)

rabler said:


> Nightshift
> Mine is a ‘64.  Looks like they milled through the casing to mount the limit switch, right between the two diagonal bolts that hold the assembly onto the headstock.  Vintagemachinery.org has parts diagrams for a 1965 model IIRC.  You could check those for details.  Not sure how much they show for this.


Thanks Rabler. I checked that out but not much luck. The 65 manual you mentioned does have a blueprint drawing of the electric lockout for the spindle lock but not enough detail to understand. The bolt mounting is vertical also compared to yours a year earlier. Cross section N-N shows what appears to be a plunger-type micro switch that is NC when extended (lockout pin retracted). Bill


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## rabler (May 4, 2021)

Nightshift said:


> Thanks Rabler. I checked that out but not much luck. The 65 manual you mentioned does have a blueprint drawing of the electric lockout for the spindle lock but not enough detail to understand. The bolt mounting is vertical also compared to yours a year earlier. Cross section N-N shows what appears to be a plunger-type micro switch that is NC when extended (lockout pin retracted). Bill


I haven't disassembled mine but that diagram looks to match mine in every detail.  I'm not sure what you mean about bolt mounting, but it does look like the mounting bolts are both on the spindle side with the pins being farther away, whereas yours the bolts and pins are in diagonal corners.

There is a microswitch mounted on the casting for the lockout.  It is on the side farthest away from the vertical face of the headstock.  There is a sheet metal shroud covering the switch.  I would assume the shroud is there because the switch terminals are  line voltage in the Monarch implementation.  The wires from the switch run in a small tube/conduit, over the top of the spindle and down the back side of the headstock.

I'd think with a low voltage VFD switch, you could drill a small hole in the casting for a plunger type microswitch, going in from the face farthest from the headstock.  Then drill two small blind holes and tap to something like #4 screws on either side of that hole to retain a switch.  You can get pretty small switches for low voltage.  Then you'd have to figure a way to get a ramp onto the actual spindle lock shaft.


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## Karl_T (May 4, 2021)

FWIW, the best idea i had on this was to add a cam on the knob on the outside of the lathe.  The knob has to be rotated for the pin to stay locked in.  Then add a small roller detent limit switch mounted on the outside surface

didn't like this idea that well. if you build something that works, let me now.


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## Nightshift (May 4, 2021)

Thanks Rabler. I will pull mine apart and see if I can modify to add a low voltage switch.

Karl, I agree I don't like the idea of mounting a switch on the outside as it would detract from the excellent vintage lines of these machines. So if I can come up with something, it will be on the inside hidden from view like Monarch did it. Bill


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## Briney Eye (May 7, 2021)

Heychris said:


> I completely agree with your decision.  I've done VFD conversions on several lathes.  No need for backgear.  Interestingly, I noticed an article about a new motor company turntide.  They have a great motor comparison chart.  I wish the new motors were already available.  I'd consider one.  For now I'm doing a 5hp motor and VFD


Turntide is doing switched reluctance motors, which have been around a long time. Turntide is just taking the old "sell the sizzle, not the steak" approach and emphasizing how "smart" their motors are.

I did some work with variable reluctance motors in Robotics many years ago, trying to smooth the torque ripple. Commutation is the challenge, but the same cheap microcontrollers that are making brushless DC motors ubiquitous in cordless tools will make switched reluctance motors more common in the future. They are mechanically and electrically simple, have no magnets, and can generate lots of torque at low speed. They've been waiting for more computing power to make them run smoother, and it looks like they're just about there. I was using lookup tables, but digital signal processors can do it on the fly now.


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## will.mcray (Oct 24, 2021)

Great write up? Do you have an final pictures of the VFD location and access to power on?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Karl_T (Oct 24, 2021)

There's a pic of the VFD on page 2. It sits under the tailstock where the MGset was.  I re-used the on/estop button in the standard 10EE location low on the machine left side.  From outside the machine you cannot tell its not a standard machine.


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