# Counterfeits, Fakes And Copies....? Tools And Gages



## EmilioG

Has anyone ever bought a fake when they thought they were buying the genuine article?
I've seen some good Mitutoyo caliper copies that can fool a lot of people.
I've never bought a fake anything, but I'm curious to hear if anyone has or knows of
fake Interapids, Starrett, Mitutoyo etc...  The Chinese can copy anything.

And how do you spot them?  I try to buy from reputable dealers mostly.  This is not meant to
embarrass anyone or say your foolish.  We've all been duped by something.  Sometimes we spotted them in time.


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## brino

Great topic! I work in the electronics industry and supply chain integrity is one HUGE  issue. There was a video sent around from our purchasing department of people removing parts from printed circuit boards using torches on the side walk, they would then be clean, straightened, remarked and sold as new.



EmilioG said:


> Has anyone ever bought a fake when they thought they were buying the genuine article?


I'm not sure I could tell,  unless the  'fit and finish' was way far off on the initial inspection.



EmilioG said:


> I've never bought a fake anything


Are you sure? How do you know?

-brino


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## kingmt01

I bought a Mitutoyo indicator that isn't of very nice finish. Not near as nice as people act like so it may be a fake. It seems to work but not that pretty.


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## Wheresmywrench?

If you find a deal that is too good note the model number then got to the Mitutoyo website and compare with same model. Mitutoyo uses an LR44 battery not a SR44 batteries. Also Mitutoyo does not ship NEW gauges with batteries installed. Also look at the digits. The the least significant digit is half size instead of full size on most fakes. Also  the “in” indicator is usually  on the wrong side of the display on a fake.


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## EmilioG

The Chinese do not copy vintage tools.  And I buy from reputable dealers.
I can honestly say that I don't have any fakes, just some poorly made Browne and Sharpe tools.


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## coolidge

Mitutoyo has a web site dealing with the Chinese who are making counterfeit copies of their products, they offer some advice on how to spot the fakes. They also counterfeit things like Gibson guitars.


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## jim18655

Not a tool but there were counterfeit SqD breakers being made in China and sold  by reputable dealers. The "breaker" was only a switch without a thermal unit installed.  Most were recalled through Schneider lawsuits.


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## toolman49

G'Day Fellas,
It's not just Mitutoyo, there are a heap of fake Mahr and Mauser calipers out there as well, what I wonder is how they actually make any money ?,  I have a fake Mitutoyo 300 mm vernier caliper, I knew it was a fake when I purchased it and the seller was quite upfront about the fact that it was of Chinese origin. The caliper itself is a mid range generic job that would probably sell in the $50 - $60 here in Oz, some enterprising little bugger has put it on a laser engraver to fake the Mitutoyo trade mark, bar code and serial number, they have screen printed the Mitutoyo logo on the vinyl case and reprinted the original manual and guarantee card. The Hong Kong dealer sells these for AUD  $25 plus $12 postage. It seems like a lot of trouble to go to  for very little return.
Regards,
Martin


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## John Hasler

toolman49 said:


> G'Day Fellas,
> It's not just Mitutoyo, there are a heap of fake Mahr and Mauser calipers out there as well, what I wonder is how they actually make any money ?,  I have a fake Mitutoyo 300 mm vernier caliper, I knew it was a fake when I purchased it and the seller was quite upfront about the fact that it was of Chinese origin. The caliper itself is a mid range generic job that would probably sell in the $50 - $60 here in Oz, some enterprising little bugger has put it on a laser engraver to fake the Mitutoyo trade mark, bar code and serial number, they have screen printed the Mitutoyo logo on the vinyl case and reprinted the original manual and guarantee card. The Hong Kong dealer sells these for AUD  $25 plus $12 postage. It seems like a lot of trouble to go to  for very little return.
> Regards,
> Martin


Perhaps its the other way around: Mitutoyo is making a *lot* of money.


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## EmilioG

I've read that there are fake Interapids and Starrett tools as well.
Some fakes are better than others and there are ways to spot them.


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## Mike Nash

EmilioG said:


> Has anyone ever bought a fake when they thought they were buying the genuine article?
> I've seen some good Mitutoyo caliper copies that can fool a lot of people.
> I've never bought a fake anything, but I'm curious to hear if anyone has or knows of
> fake Interapids, Starrett, Mitutoyo etc...  The Chinese can copy anything.
> 
> And how do you spot them?  I try to buy from reputable dealers mostly.  This is not meant to
> embarrass anyone or say your foolish.  We've all been duped by something.  Sometimes we spotted them in time.



So are you quite certain you have no fakes? 



Wheresmywrench? said:


> Mitutoyo uses an LR44 battery not a SR44 batteries.



You have this reversed, The SR44 is the better battery and is called out in the instructions here:
http://www.mitutoyo.co.jp/eng/support/service/manual/pdf/99MAD014M4_Digimatic_Caliper.pdf


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## EmilioG

I'm sure that I don't have any fakes because most of my tools were inherited from my Dad who was a
machinist.  All vintage Starrett from the 60's and 70's.  My Mitutoyo digital caliper and Etalon mic's
are all real.  My tools are too accurate and well finished to be fakes.  The Chinese are not good with certain details.
But yes, I'm sure.


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## kingmt01

Not so. The Chinese are very good at machining & production. They build to lower standards however usually to the specs of the importer. I have some nice Chinese tools along with other nice items built in China. I just got a .0001" indacator from China that has nice finish & is very smooth. No complements about it so far.


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## planeflyer21

coolidge said:


> Mitutoyo has a web site dealing with the Chinese who are making counterfeit copies of their products, they offer some advice on how to spot the fakes. They also counterfeit things like Gibson guitars.



They counterfeit _everything_!  If a company has at any point in their history moved production to China to save a few bucks, their product _will_ be copied.

Calloway golf clubs, Danner boots, automobiles, anything.


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## kingmt01

They sometimes make mistakes coping them tho. I bought the 123 blocks from China. I'm not sure what they are good for since they won't bold togather or to the table. The through holes are smaller then the threaded holes. Maybe I'll need something to bang with & they will be closer then the hamer.


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## toolman49

Here you go fellas, a full set of Chinese fakes for under $100 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free...ter-0-25mm-and-dial-indicator/2046842921.html
Regards,
Martin


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## hman

kingmt01 said:


> They sometimes make mistakes coping them tho. I bought the 123 blocks from China. I'm not sure what they are good for since they won't bold togather or to the table. The through holes are smaller then the threaded holes. Maybe I'll need something to bang with & they will be closer then the hamer.



I've been looking for a decent set of 123 blocks for some months now.  It seems that ALL the imported ones have 5/16" clearance holes and 3/8-16 tapped holes.  Probably an easy shortcut when manufacturing - start out drilling all the holes 5/16", which is the tap drill size for 3/8-16.

I' ve even gone so far as to ask a few of the suppliers about this "feature."  Those who even bothered to answer basically said to use 1/4" screws.  My best hope is to run across a nice "vintage" set somewhere ... unless SOMEBODY knows of a currently available set that bolts together nicely (for less that the cost of a new car).


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## kingmt01

The holes tapped for 3/8 don't fit very well ether. They feel like they will pull out they are so sloppy. At least on mine. I don't get it why they would just say is 1/4" when they could have it fixed.


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## JimC27

Except for the finish on the micrometer, they all look pretty good.  If your work requires it, buy the real stuff.  These items, however, are practically "disposable."  I buy real when I can/need; otherwise, my Chinese tools are usable and afford me a greater variety of tools and instruments.  BTW, I can't afford Swiss watches anymore, either, but my Casio G-Shock, Atomic, Sun-recharged can't be beat for utility and accuracy.  It is made in Thailand.  I gave my Swiss chronograph away (at $300 for a cleaning/adjustment).  Not a hard decision.  I miss it, but not for it's accuracy or utility.


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## bustamallard

Bought a set of "Mitutoyo" telescoping gauges; and once disassembled, I discovered something that tipped it off as a fake.  The locking pin that locks the expanding members had an end that looked like it was cut with side cutters (complete with burrs).  Of course, the ability to set and lock the tool was compromised. Good tools have a polished and slightly convex end.


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## kingmt01

My HF mics repeat every time to the thousandths place plus to what division your eye can make out. They are very smooth & thimble feels consistent. Years ago I was talking to my uncle that has been a machinist all his life. I was asking about how to know that a tool reading 1" was truly 1". His response was the most of the time it doesn't matter. Most parts are built from a stranded that is in shop so as long as it is repeatable that is the most important part. Once in a while he would have to work fron another shops standards & had to have calibrated tools that he keep locked up until needed to to build the standard in his shop then his employees would work off that part for production. He still didn't buy tools as cheap as I do. Lol. He considered $100 a cheap at of dial calipers & they were only good for rough work. My calipers seem to always be 1ths lighter then my mics but I can see how much heavy or light of 1ths with the mics where the calipers round it for me. Not that I get that picky most of the time. 

Anyhow I think I sidetracked this far enough but the point is still related. He did measure my standards that came with my $30 3 piece set from HF 20 years ago & said they were the same as his as close as my mics could measure.


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## benmychree

hman said:


> I've been looking for a decent set of 123 blocks for some months now.  It seems that ALL the imported ones have 5/16" clearance holes and 3/8-16 tapped holes.  Probably an easy shortcut when manufacturing - start out drilling all the holes 5/16", which is the tap drill size for 3/8-16.
> 
> I' ve even gone so far as to ask a few of the suppliers about this "feature."  Those who even bothered to answer basically said to use 1/4" screws.  My best hope is to run across a nice "vintage" set somewhere ... unless SOMEBODY knows of a currently available set that bolts together nicely (for less that the cost of a new car).


It is only in late years that the blocks were made with tapped holes so the blocks can be assembled with each other; when I was young and an apprentice, I made my own set with drilled holes only, and used them for setup work and layout; I made them from 0-1 tool steel that was left over remnants from a shop job, heat treated them and ground them to size with the shop's 16 x 72 Mattison surface grinder.  I still use them in my home shop for the same uses, and also using them as setting standards for length in combination with a set of step gages that I made of sizes from 1/8" to 1"; I first saw one of these step gages that was made by an apprentice tool maker from Mare Island Navy Yard during WW-2; they are really handy for things like setting lengths against a lathe carriage stop.


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## pandreasen

EmilioG said:


> Has anyone ever bought a fake when they thought they were buying the genuine article?
> I've seen some good Mitutoyo caliper copies that can fool a lot of people.
> I've never bought a fake anything, but I'm curious to hear if anyone has or knows of
> fake Interapids, Starrett, Mitutoyo etc...  The Chinese can copy anything.
> 
> And how do you spot them?  I try to buy from reputable dealers mostly.  This is not meant to
> embarrass anyone or say your foolish.  We've all been duped by something.  Sometimes we spotted them in time.





I guess I am an exception! (my Mommy always said so... Does "Your DIFFERENT"mean the same thing?

I have twice bought "Chinese junk" from someone knowing even less than I, and wound up with good stuff!
Bought a Micrometer sight unseen that was "supposedly" good down to 1/10000 for $50 from a another Ham Operator I met on the air!
Turned out to be a Fowler (not THE best, but very good) that actually goes to 5/100000 (yes, 5 one hundred thousandths!) I had it checked the PMEL lab on the nearby Air Force base and it was as accurate as their master calibrator!  When I contacted him to tell him he made a mistake (by selling something worth almost $400 for $50, he wouldn't listen, and insisted I bought it, it was my problem! He thought I was *****ing when I just wanted to return it to him rather than cheat him! My gain! Just TRIED to be honest. Some people aren't, so they don't believe you can be either.

The other was another mic from ebay. It was groddy looking in the picture and it was described literally as C-Junk. When I got it and cleaned it up, it was an old Starrett  that is so on the money at 1/10000 it is funny. Him, I didn't call!
The rest of the "junk" I have, I knew it going in and just didn't need better! With those as reference, why spend more money?

Paul, Lompoc, CA (PROC)


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## EmilioG

pandreasen said:


> I guess I am an exception! (my Mommy always said so... Does "Your DIFFERENT"mean the same thing?
> 
> I have twice bought "Chinese junk" from someone knowing even less than I, and wound up with good stuff!
> Bought a Micrometer sight unseen that was "supposedly" good down to 1/10000 for $50 from a another Ham Operator I met on the air!
> Turned out to be a Fowler (not THE best, but very good) that actually goes to 5/100000 (yes, 5 one hundred thousandths!) I had it checked the PMEL lab on the nearby Air Force base and it was as accurate as their master calibrator!  When I contacted him to tell him he made a mistake (by selling something worth almost $400 for $50, he wouldn't listen, and insisted I bought it, it was my problem! He thought I was *****ing when I just wanted to return it to him rather than cheat him! My gain! Just TRIED to be honest. Some people aren't, so they don't believe you can be either.
> 
> The other was another mic from ebay. It was groddy looking in the picture and it was described literally as C-Junk. When I got it and cleaned it up, it was an old Starrett  that is so on the money at 1/10000 it is funny. Him, I didn't call!
> The rest of the "junk" I have, I knew it going in and just didn't need better! With those as reference, why spend more money?
> 
> Paul, Lompoc, CA (PROC)



Would you mind posting a photo of the Fowler and Starrett?  Do you know what the model numbers are?
Thanks


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## ARKnack

_I've been looking for a decent set of 123 blocks for some months now. It seems that ALL the imported ones have 5/16" clearance holes and 3/8-16 tapped holes. Probably an easy shortcut when manufacturing - start out drilling all the holes 5/16", which is the tap drill size for 3/8-16.

I' ve even gone so far as to ask a few of the suppliers about this "feature." Those who even bothered to answer basically said to use 1/4" screws. My best hope is to run across a nice "vintage" set somewhere ... unless SOMEBODY knows of a currently available set that bolts together nicely (for less that the cost of a new car).
_
SuburbanTool Inc make them here in the USA. Not cheap but nice. Here is a link to a YouTube video they made.


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## Frank Ford

Well, at least THIS Mitutoyo caliper isn't a fake:




Got it off eBay and it's accurate to a tenth.

Actually even better than that - a sixteenth. . .


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## Wreck™Wreck

I bought a new Mitutoyo 12" dial caliper a few weeks ago and hadn't noticeed until today that it has what looks like a QR Code etched into the beam, about 1/4" square.


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## sgisler

Have you scanned it??


Stan,
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## onetrack

He's too frightened to scan it, in case the message comes up, "Made in China"! LOL


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## EmilioG

Yes, Mitutoyo started doing this as a fraud prevention measure.   The Chinese will probably try to copy that too.
But maybe the code and serial number are linked to a database where you register your gage then it's harder to
steal the code.  Two people can't own the same tool and there can't be two of the same codes. They're unique to each
tool.


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## Wreck™Wreck

I have scanned it, didn't work with a smart phone.

I own a good deal of Mitsutoyo tools and it's the real thing, the fit and finish is everything that I have come to expect from them over the last 30+ years, the etching is superb, laser I suspect.
Bought it from Manhattan Supply for $281.00 plus freight, I work in a machine shop so I don't shop price for tools that I use every day.


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## toolman49

"Yes, Mitutoyo started doing this as a fraud prevention measure. The Chinese will probably try to copy that too."

G'Day Fellas,
They already do copy the bar code,  the photo shows a fake 300 mm caliper with a genuine 150mm for comparison,  Mitutoyo publish bulletins on line showing how to spot the fakes.
Regards,
Martin


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