# 833TV Received



## parshal (Mar 2, 2020)

I'll post pics up as I get this thing ready to go.

Step one, move the boxes to the garage with the tractor forks on the Kubota.


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## davidpbest (Mar 2, 2020)

I'm anxious for you to plug it in and see how it works.   Congratulations.


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## parshal (Mar 2, 2020)

Crates disassembled and stand in what I think is it’s place. 

The stand is lighter than I thought. The shelf is half depth with a screwed on vented side panel. I believe it’s where one would mount a VFD.


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## parshal (Mar 2, 2020)

Oh, and it's crazy heavy.  I can't move it on the pallet.


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## 7milesup (Mar 2, 2020)

I just moved mine from my old shop to my new shop and my rather robust engine hoist (not harbor fright) could barely lift it.  I was quite concerned that my strap would not hold, but it did. 
I am currently looking into converting mine to CNC, but I have a lot to learn.


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## parshal (Mar 2, 2020)

I'm probably going to need the Kubota bucket.  The Y axis DRO scales are right at the holes for the lifting eyes and they aren't long enough to clear the scales.  I may just have to wrap the straps around the head as described in the manual.  I don't want to get that bucket near the wall of the pole barn as I am as likely to stick the bucket through the side as I am to get it perfect.

I'd love to know what it would take to convert this to CNC when you get around to it.  That's way down the road if ever but it would be good to know what it takes and tuck that info away somewhere.

I'm currently in email exchanges with Greg at Priest Tools to see what can be done about a power drawbar.  He's not seen one of these yet.


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## 7milesup (Mar 2, 2020)

I would use the strap around the head.  The lifting eyes in the side never made sense to me because the entire weight of the machine is above the lifting point, making the CG very high up.  Not a good idea IMHO.
You must have a decent sized Kubota.  I have a newer BX2380 and it would not even budge this thing.


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## parshal (Mar 2, 2020)

It's an L4200 which is a 45 hp tractor.  It lifted these pallets without issue.  With the 1340GT, though, there wasn't enough power to lift the pallet even at full throttle due to the length of the pallet.  There was way too much hanging out in front of the forks.


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## Kyo (Mar 2, 2020)

Nice looking mill, I have been considering either a pm-833tv or the new pm-728vt for my maker shed. To replace the pm25 and lms-3990 I got rid of last year. Would love a 949ts but weight and lack of a concrete floor prevents that option.

 I look forward to see what folks say about this mill now that we are starting to see them out in the wild. I have seen a few of them converted to cnc as well. Here is one example I ran across earlier today.


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## ahazi (Mar 3, 2020)

parshal said:


> The stand is lighter than I thought. The shelf is half depth with a screwed on vented side panel. I believe it’s where one would mount a VFD.



It seems that only the Mainland China machines i.e PM-932M, PM-940 come with heavy cast iron stand. I decided to build/weld my own around a drawer cabinet. It needs to be a full cage as the weight is too much to just put it on top of the drawer cabinet as I did with my old drill/mill (see picture.) 






My PM-933T is on it's way, left Chicago today so it will arrive in few days.

Brian, can you take some measurements for me so I can start with the stand/drawer cage design?
1. Tray height from the floor? I found 28" somewhere but I am not sure
2. Table height from base/tray? If the above number is correct it should be 11.5" but again not sure

I want to make sure that my final height will be reasonable to work around. The current height of my table is 49" from the floor which is on the high side but it works very well for me.

Ariel


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## parshal (Mar 3, 2020)

Ariel, I'll get those measurements today when I'm down in the garage.

Kyo, good find on the video.  The video mentioned heavymetalcnc.com as a source for the parts to convert the 833T to CNC.  Low and behold they have a kit for under $1k.


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## 7milesup (Mar 3, 2020)

Base of the base of the mail to the top of the table is 10 and 1/4 inches.  I  Built my own stand for my mill out of 2"x3" tubing and I have my stand at 36 and 1/2 inch above the floor.  I am 6ft tall and find that comfortable.  

If you open up the video in YouTube,  you will find a link to Dr. D-Flo's website.   There he has a complete materials list including the Linux operating system that he used.   I believe I am going to head in that direction of converting mine to CNC.    During the video he does mention that he uses stepper Motors but wants to convert to Servo Motors down the line. I'm not sure why one would spend the money on stepper Motors and then convert to servos Motors later.


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## 7milesup (Mar 3, 2020)

Keep in mind too that in addition to that $1000 that you will also have to buy driver boards, power supply, touch screen monitor, pendant, cables, enclosure and a computer to run all of it ( he uses an Intel NUC).
Now add in the stepper or service motors.


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## 7milesup (Mar 3, 2020)

Here is my thread on my mill...

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pictures-of-the-pm-833t.65776/

I find that deciding on the motion controller to be my big hang up.  Mach 3, Linux, Messo and a whole bunch more, included Centroid Acorn but maybe I will learn towards Linux.


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## parshal (Mar 3, 2020)

Here's the height from the base of the stand to the chip tray.  This is without the standoff bolts to level the stand so you can add and inch or two to this height.


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## parshal (Mar 3, 2020)

Got it in place tonight.  It was fairly straight forward and not nearly as difficult as getting the 1340GT onto the stands.

We used the tractor and forks to lift it onto the stand and used 1/2" aluminum rod to roll it into place.  While it was on the ground (and help) I loosened the bolts for the head to ensure it would move.  I didn't want to deal with that on the stand by myself when tramming.  

I powered it up and ran the spindle in reverse and forward.  What I didn't find was a power switch so I'll have to rig up something.


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## parshal (Mar 5, 2020)

I installed two switches and a 2 gang 120 outlet yesterday.  Flipping those switches powers the accessories and mill.

Cleaning the cosmoline off the mill took no time at all.  Certainly not the days it took on the 1340.

The oiler works very well.  I gave it a few pumps just to get things moving and I had oil coming down the sides of the column a while later.  I didn't see oil on the Y or X so I did those by hand just to be sure there was oil.

I adjusted the spindle R8 taper screw so I could insert a collet.  Of course, one fell on the table and left a good mark.  So, it's no longer new.  LOL

I got the DRO connected.  I mounted the display on a pole (it's in a pole barn) next to the mill.  I wasn't sure where it would be best mounted to the machine.  The little screws that hold the DRO cables to the serial port seem long.  When fully tightened the cables move.  I may shorten those to get a solid connection.

The Shars 4" vise fits this mill perfectly.  With the larger opening jaws I can fit nearly anything I'll machine.  I bought two and wider jaws for both from Monster Jaws so I think I'm good there. 

I'm starting the X power feed install.  The next step is to drill/tap the mounting bolts which I'll do today.  Then, I'll tram the X and start the Z power install.  Then, I'll get to tramming the nod (Y?).

How tight should the mill base bolts be to the stand?  How tight should the bolts on the column to base be?  I have a ~10" wrench to tighten them with and that can give a lot of torque.  They're tight now but not 500 lbs. gorilla tight.  Just curious if others are using a torque value.

The drawbar seems a bit long compared to my LMS mill.  There's a full 1" of engagement in a collet before it's tight.  That's gonna get old changing tools with that much engagement.  What is a good, normal engagement for a drawbar?


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## Janderso (Mar 5, 2020)

Sweet.
I'm happy for you!


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## wrmiller (Mar 5, 2020)

The drawbar on my 935 has about that much engagement, but I figure the more the better. My having to spend a few seconds spinning the bar by hand a few extra times is worth in IMO. Besides, I'm retired and it's not like I'm in a hurry or anything. 

That's a good looking little mill. Have fun with that thing.


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## parshal (Mar 5, 2020)

I got the X power feed installed.  That adds more length to the table that I thought it would so my buddy's coming over tonight to help me move the mill 5" right so I don't hit my bench off the left.

I made an indicator holder on a 8" offset sweep to tram the X.  It was off by less than .001.  Just loosening one of the three bolts moved the indicator so I did that a couple times and it was right on.  I'm sure as soon as I take a heavy cut I'll need to check it all again.

I used the mill to drill and tap holes in steel for indicator holder.  I drilled once around 60 RPM.  I couldn't really say how much torque it had at that low RPM.  I'm betting with a large bit I'd see it.

Next is the Z power feed and tramming the Y.  Then, I might be able to get all stuff moved back in place in the garage.

I'll get pictures posted when it's all set done.


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## brino (Mar 5, 2020)

parshal said:


> Got it in place tonight.



It looks right at home there.
Congratulations!
-brino


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## davidpbest (Mar 5, 2020)

Anxious to  hear how it performs below 100 RPM.


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## parshal (Mar 6, 2020)

Got the Z power feed installed.  With the DRO scales installed I put the feed stops on the left side of the column.  The instructions mention the oiler lines being in the way but that's not the case on my mill.  I didn't put any standoffs in place either.  I'm going to put a little standoff on the power wire hold down to give it more clearance from the stop bracket and sensor when the head is near table.

Drilling the gear shaft and sleeve for the Z axis feed was interesting.  I made sure I had the head low enough to still use the quill before I took the handle off.  Of course, I misjudged the height of the vise and had to reinstall the old gear shaft and get the handle on enough so that I could raise it to drill.  I also had everything measured and centered and started drilling the first hole for the pin only to find there was no way to hold the shaft tight.  As you can see in the picture I had to fashion up some way to hold it with what I could find in the pile of stuff that I moved to get this mill in place.  It worked perfectly albeit quite unconventional.

The Z motor is right up against the back right column bolt.  Tramming the nod will be interesting since I'll probably have to pull the motor off to get to that bolt.

Also is a pic of the power switches and outlets I installed.  I used a 20 amp double-pole switch for both.  The last outlet in one circuit is right by the machine so I ran to a box and installed two outlets that are switched for all the mill accessories.  Two switches to turn it all on and off.

I've been talking with Greg at Priest Tools about his power drawbar.  The spacing is tight between the spindle and motor mount but I think I can make it work.  I'll have to modify his mounting plates or make my own.  I'll probably start another thread once I get started on that.

I have the cover off the front of the mill.  Greg's power drawbar has to be over the spindle and the case over the drawbar that the mill comes with is much to tall.  I've got a BP style quill stop and Mitutoyo quill DRO to install.  Once those are installed I'm going to have a custom faceplate made that will be built around those two items.


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## Praeger (Mar 7, 2020)

Hey Brian - Congrats on the new mill.  I have the 833T and picked up a Mitutoyo quill DRO that I haven't yet installed.  Looking forward to seeing how you install it with a custom face plate.  Been spending most of my time on the 1340 GT chambering barrels.  Thinking about a chamber flush system. Peck and clean on the chamber reamer is getting old - but good results.  

The 833 does have a long drawbar engagement.  I bought a cordless electric ratchet and keep it on my toolbox next to the mill - dedicated to the drawbar.  Not quite a power drawbar, but it does speed things up.

You mentioned tramming the nod of of the head.  How would you do that on the 833?  I thought the only way was shimming the column?


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## 7milesup (Mar 7, 2020)

Here is the thread on my DRO install...  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm-833t-dro-install.76240/#post-640049

Also, I did cut some of my drawbar off.


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## parshal (Mar 7, 2020)

Yes, shimming the column is the only way.

The power drawbar I ordered from Greg has a longer drawbar in it so I'm going to hold off on the length for now.  I think I'll have to modify his baseplate to get it to fit the 833.  We'll see, though.

I made a lot of chips today.  That thing is crazy messy!  I went to the aluminum scrap yard and picked up a block 9" x 9" square of 5/8".  My plan is to replace the cast iron ring around the spindle that they used for the stop.  The ring was put on before the spindle so it has to be cut off.  I'm waiting to do that until I have my aluminum one made.

I tried boring the ~3.5" hole with a boring tool in the mill.  What a PITA.  To do that I had to figure out how to clamp it to the table.  The clamps (they're pretty slick) I bought were too big for the T-slot so I had to cut each of those down.  Of course, I discovered my good fit was a bit too tight depending on which slot I used. 

I gave up on the boring tool and chucked it in the 4 jaw on the 1340GT and made quick work of it.  Having Mark's proximity stop was great so I didn't have to look from the side to see how far I'd gone in.  The next step was to cut the plate in half with my Makita carbide blade.  Of course, the block was too big so I had to take parts off the saw stand and use clamps to get it cut.  Then, I spent way too much time milling the halves down to width.  I should have but it back on the saw but it was cutting slow so I may need a new blade.  Those things are spendy.

So, I think I've got it all done and will double check it all tomorrow.  Then, cut off the cast iron ring with, I'm guessing, a cutoff tools in the dremel.  We'll see how that goes.  But, once it's on the mill then I can figure out how best to mount the stop and DRO and then order a new faceplate.

I'll post pics tomorrow of the new collar once it's in place.


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## parshal (Mar 8, 2020)

I got the collar installed today.  For something so simple it took a long time to make!

The cast iron ring had to be cut halfway through with a dremel cutoff wheel and then I was able to crack it off.

I've left the front sticking out across the whole width for now and I still have to drill/tap the plate for the stop rod.  Of course, I've got to get a 1/2-20 bottom tap.  I can probably get a couple thread with a spiral tap.  I've got to mount the collar the rod rides in to the bottom front of the head.  I haven't decided if I'll run that through the faceplate or mount it and have a cutout in plate.  The top mount for the DRO will have to be mounted to the faceplate so having a cutout for the stop collar isn't necessary since I'll have to remove the DRO screws anyway to take off the plate.

Once I've got the stop rod mounted I'll figure out exactly where the DRO will go.  I'll need to measure how much the DRO will stand off the faceplate and I'll mill the front of the collar down to size and remove most of what's standing out from the face of the mill.  I'll only have what I need for the stop rod sticking out so it will look much cleaner.

I've got the new faceplate designed.  I like simple so it just says PM833TV in blue and the serial number and mfg. date are smaller in the lower right hand corner.  I planned on leaving the top cover off to install a power drawbar which will make the faceplate shorter.  I'm still confirming with Greg whether I need to top cover or not.  Once confirmed, I'll order the plate and get it all finished.


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## davidpbest (Mar 8, 2020)

Not sure this will help but might be inspiration. 








						Installing a Mitutoyo 6-inch scale on RF45 Quill
					

Explore this photo album by David Best on Flickr!




					flickr.com


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## parshal (Mar 8, 2020)

Man, that is slick!  I guess I need a rotary table now unless I could use the 6” super spacer that I’ve yet to remove from its crate.


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## ahazi (Mar 9, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> Not sure this will help but might be inspiration.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Definitely inspiring. I have an old rotary table that I will clean up and make ready for the job as soon as I get the other initial install work on the PM-833T. Expecting delivery on Tuesday.

David, what CAD software do you use for your drawings?

Ariel


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## DavidR8 (Mar 9, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> Not sure this will help but might be inspiration.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is some nice work!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davidpbest (Mar 9, 2020)

Here's another.


ahazi said:


> Definitely inspiring. I have an old rotary table that I will clean up and make ready for the job as soon as I get the other initial install work on the PM-833T. Expecting delivery on Tuesday.
> 
> David, what CAD software do you use for your drawings?
> 
> Ariel


Visio Professional


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## davidpbest (Mar 9, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> That is some nice work!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks.   Here's how I did the quill DRO on my PM935:   









						Custom Install - Mitutoyo Scale on J-Head Mill - PM935
					

This album documents the brackets required to couple the back of a Mitutoyo scale to the quill depth ring on the mill head in a manner that supports the attachment of an auto-reversing proximity sensor.




					flickr.com


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## 7milesup (Mar 9, 2020)

You use Visio as your CAD software?  Interesting.   

One of the excellent options for CAD is Fusion 360.  An excellent program with awesome support.  The Fusion 360 team is very responsive to requests for improvements, etc.  It is free for educational/ personal use.

If you are a Member of the EAA, you can download Solidworks for free.  That is what I have been using lately.

If one is thinking about heading towards CNC for any of your machines down the road, I would recommend Fusion.


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## parshal (Mar 9, 2020)

David, I'd seen the pics for your 935 install but not the PM25.  Before I buy the front plate I'm going to do more investigation.

I wish there was an any place to contain the stop.  As you can see in the pics, the left side has the electrical box.  The thin, horizontal casting in the front is in the way if I use the BP type stop nut.


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## davidpbest (Mar 9, 2020)

7milesup said:


> You use Visio as your CAD software?  Interesting.
> 
> One of the excellent options for CAD is Fusion 360.  An excellent program with awesome support.  The Fusion 360 team is very responsive to requests for improvements, etc.  It is free for educational/ personal use.
> 
> ...



I use Fusion 360 all the time for 3D modeling work, and I advise their development team on UI related enhancements monthly (I’m in Portland OR where their HQ for F360 is located).  But it is a terrible substitute for 2D CAD because it’s drawing output capability is very limited.  It is getting better, but may never get to a level that’s useful for many things I do.  Try doing architectural drawings for a house remodel with it - which is what I do day in and day out.   Visio Professional (not the basic version, but the Pro) is hands down the most efficient and productive 2D CAD package available, and I’ve tried them all.  For the CNC stuff I send out, no question F360 is great. But not everything lends itself to 3D modeling as a starting point.


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## 7milesup (Mar 9, 2020)

True about the 2D modeling.  Sometimes my thinking goes directly to 3D.  
Will visio (non pro version) do 2D drawings? I was using Draftsight but they have now gone to a pay to play model.  
As far as architectural drawings go, both Fusion and Solidworks are very poor at doing that.


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## davidpbest (Mar 9, 2020)

Visio basic is for org charts, office layouts, stuff like that.  Think of it as PowerPoint with some drafting template objects.  I was the VC backer of Visio when it started in 1993, but it was gobbled up by Microsoft and integrated into Office in the late 1990’s.  The Pro version is fully featured for architectural, engineering, HVAC, piping and pneumatic design, etc. The Pro version of Visio is available for purchase (about $500) or through Microsoft’s cloud-based service for a monthly fee.  In many respects it is a template-driven version of the original MacCAD or Claris CAD system, the long time high water mark for UI design and productivity.   Within Microsoft, Visio is a backwater product and as such I don’t normally recommend it to new users.   I have 20 years of legacy drawings corked up in Visio, so I’m hostage to it and still run the 2002 version under Windows 10 under Parallels on the Mac.  Visio does not have parametric geometry capabilities like F360, but is object based with layers and most of the flexibility of Autocad but with a much better user interface.  If I had to choose a package today for 2D drafting I would consider Ashlar’s Graphite (which is parametric) or Rhino 2D. The learning curve on all these CAD packages is steep if you want to be productive, and once you have a library of drawings, you are held hostage, so choose wisely.


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## parshal (Mar 9, 2020)

I've been using Visio for network diagrams since the late 90's.  I've done a couple drawings for machinable items but that's been mostly back of the napkin at this point.


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## 7milesup (Mar 9, 2020)

Thanks for the insight Dave!


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## ahazi (Mar 10, 2020)

7milesup said:


> If you are a Member of the EAA, you can download Solidworks for free.  That is what I have been using lately.



What do you use the Solidworks for?  2D/3D? I am also an EAA member and can get it but it seems to have a very steep learning curve. In my non hobby life I use an experienced mechanical engineer that is very good with Solidworks and he designs 3D printed and injection molded cases/housing for us. It looks like a lifetime of learning to be as proficient in Solidworks so I am looking for something easier.

Ariel


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## ahazi (Mar 10, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> Visio basic is for org charts, office layouts, stuff like that.  Think of it as PowerPoint with some drafting template objects.  I was the VC backer of Visio when it started in 1993, but it was gobbled up by Microsoft and integrated into Office in the late 1990’s.  The Pro version is fully featured for architectural, engineering, HVAC, piping and pneumatic design, etc. The Pro version of Visio is available for purchase (about $500) or through Microsoft’s cloud-based service for a monthly fee.  In many respects it is a template-driven version of the original MacCAD or Claris CAD system, the long time high water mark for UI design and productivity.   Within Microsoft, Visio is a backwater product and as such I don’t normally recommend it to new users.   I have 20 years of legacy drawings corked up in Visio, so I’m hostage to it and still run the 2002 version under Windows 10 under Parallels on the Mac.  Visio does not have parametric geometry capabilities like F360, but is object based with layers and most of the flexibility of Autocad but with a much better user interface.  If I had to choose a package today for 2D drafting I would consider Ashlar’s Graphite (which is parametric) or Rhino 2D. The learning curve on all these CAD packages is steep if you want to be productive, and once you have a library of drawings, you are held hostage, so choose wisely.


David you are as thorough with CAD as you are with everything else. Nice!

I gave up on Microsoft in 2010 and moved to Linux and my (computer) life became infinitely better except for the mechanical CAD area. Not that much selection. For awhile I used SketchUp through VirtualBox but when Google sold it the party was over. I am using QCAD now which is a very good 2D drawing package (free and multi platform, DXF file format) but I am always looking for something easier and more intuitive without a great learning curve...

Now I am on a mission to make proper fabrication drawings for the stand that I am building for the PM-833T. Inside the stand I am fitting a nice 6-Drawer, Deep Tool Chest Cabinet from Husky that will house the tooling and will also serve as a ballast for the mill.

Expecting my PM-833T delivery tomorrow.

Ariel


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## davidpbest (Mar 10, 2020)

Send me a sketch.  I’ll draw it up in Visio and clock the time.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 10, 2020)

This thread has taken an interesting turn re drawings and drafting programs. 
I’ve got Fusion 360 but haven’t spent enough time on it primarily because I didn’t have a need. 

At the risk of utterly high jacking the thread, why would a person chose 3D over 2D?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 7milesup (Mar 10, 2020)

ahazi said:


> What do you use the Solidworks for?  2D/3D? I am also an EAA member and can get it but it seems to have a very steep learning curve. In my non hobby life I use an experienced mechanical engineer that is very good with Solidworks and he designs 3D printed and injection molded cases/housing for us. It looks like a lifetime of learning to be as proficient in Solidworks so I am looking for something easier.
> 
> Ariel



Hello Ariel:
The reasons for my use of Solidworks are slightly complicated but here it goes....
I also do 3D printing and needed a program to draw up designs and send them to my slicer for printing.  I am into scale (Large) RC helicopters so my intent was to use it for that.  However, I discovered so many other uses for my 3D printer that it has become quite a valuable tool for me.  For example, I have made dust collection piping adapters for my woodshop amongst many other items, including stuff for my truck, and even items around the house. The first item I ever printed with my Prusa printer was a replacement temperature control knob for my wife's crock pot.  It had been broke for years and that not only helped her out but won me numerous tool points 
However, I originally started out in Fusion 360 and that is probably where I would be 100% of the time but I also work for an engineer part time, who uses Solidworks (I am a retired pro pilot BTW).  I wanted to come up to speed on the program so I would have the ability to collaborate with him.

You are correct about the learning curve.  It is steep, but if you have a program that is very capable, whether is be Fusion, Solidworks, Rhino or any other CAD system, it will take a lot of time to learn it.  Thankfully there is YouTube, which btw, Fusion has more support in that area.

I also plan on converting my 833T into a CNC machine in the future.  I have made enough connections through my engineering friend that I believe there is work to be had.


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## 7milesup (Mar 10, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> This thread has taken an interesting turn re drawings and drafting programs.
> I’ve got Fusion 360 but haven’t spent enough time on it primarily because I didn’t have a need.
> 
> At the risk of utterly high jacking the thread, why would a person chose 3D over 2D?
> ...



Oh, we hijacked the hell out of this thread, didn't we.  LOL


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## DavidR8 (Mar 10, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Thankfully there is YouTube, which btw, Fusion has more support in that area.



I believe that CNCNYC has some Fusion360 tutorials. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davidpbest (Mar 10, 2020)

I use a 3D modeler in two situations:  
1 - where the item I'm designing is going to be produced on some kind of CNC machine (I can go directly from the 3D model representation to a CAM output that produces the G-code that runs the mill or printer or lathe or whatever CNC machine is used to make the part), or 
2 - where I need to be able to show a visual 3D representation of the part to a client - so they can see what it looks like (I do this a lot with things like furniture, kitchen cabinet layouts, some machined parts, etc.).   

If I'm trying to communicate a design to someone (including myself in the shop) who is using a manual machine like a Bridgeport mill, or lathe, or for that matter a cabinet saw, I want 2D drawings that specify all the required dimensions on paper.   Some 3D modelers will output 2D drawings, but often the capability is limited, so a 2D CAD package provides much more flexibility and capability to document something in paper form.  Attached is an example of such a 2D drawing.   I could have tried designing this in Fusion360, but the shop who will ultimately build this wouldn't know what to do with a 3D model and requires detailed 2D drawings well beyond what F360 could output (this was done with Visio Pro BTW).


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## wrmiller (Mar 11, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Oh, we hijacked the hell out of this thread, didn't we.  LOL



I keep popping into this thread to see new info on parshal's 833. I'll stop now.


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## parshal (Mar 11, 2020)

LOL.  It has taken a turn, hasn't it?

Current status:

I had some vinyl covered MDF that I used to make way covers.  One time cleaning all the oil soaked chips from the t-slots was enough.  I used some 1" square plastic strips I had and used a hand plane to get them to fit in the slots.  I then used some brads to hold them in place.  I made a bunch of different widths so I can cover the entire table, half and quarters depending on what I have clamped to the table.  I'll post pics of them.  Simple and efficient.

I've been spending the last day taking apart the Super Indexer and "fixing" things.  Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to best mill the rotary table holes to line up with the bolt holes on the indexer.  They're drilled about .070" off.  The indexer has been a little project of it's own.

I ordered a new faceplate yesterday so that's about two weeks out.

I also ordered a power drawbar from Priest Tools.  That will be a project to fit it to this mill since he's not made one specifically for it.  I'm not sure if I'll try to get that working before I finish the DRO/stop or after.

Once I have the faceplate and the rotary table working I'm going to modify the plate I made for the spindle stop using some ideas from David's post where he made his on the rotary table.  Mine won't be anything like his but I think I can make mine prettier.

I still have my Easson 12B with magnetic scales to install on the 1340GT.  I'm going to need to figure out how best to install it and fabricate brackets and such with the mill.  I have some ideas after messaging with Mark J.  If my ideas are fruitful I think it'll be pretty slick.  I've got a third magnetic scale for the tailstock.

I received a rotary broach yesterday and the MT3 3/4" taper attachment's hole was smaller than 3/4" so I spent an hour trying to get that to work.

I also have to start training a shorthair for NAVHDA's Invitational in September.  That's a whole summer of dog training and these 'other' projects are impacting her training!  How can summer already be gone?!  LOL


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## 7milesup (Mar 11, 2020)

wrmiller said:


> I keep popping into this thread to see new info on parshal's 833. I'll stop now.



I will be quiet now Bill.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 11, 2020)

Apologies for the high jack!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wrmiller (Mar 11, 2020)

Just kidding guys... 

Heck, I've probably knocked more threads OT than most.


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## parshal (Mar 17, 2020)

Here's the new faceplate.  I could have reduced the height of the cutout by about 3/8" but, overall, it's perfect.  The color matches pretty good.  I had little perspective on the size of the lettering for the PM833TV and could have doubled the size.  I still like the clean, simple look of it.


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## 7milesup (Mar 18, 2020)

Any idea how they did the lettering on that new faceplate?  Looks good BTW.


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## parshal (Mar 18, 2020)

I don't know for sure.  It's engraved with paint infill.  It's from Front Panel Express, recommended by @davidpbest.


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## 7milesup (Mar 18, 2020)

Did not know about those guys.   Thank you.


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## davidpbest (Mar 18, 2020)

It looks great Brian.


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## mksj (Mar 18, 2020)

I have been using Front Panel Express for many years and use them for most of my system panels. They have a number of different options, I primarily use the engraving with infill color. There are also a few other vendors that except files from multiple programs, which is a limiting factor with Front Panel Express.




__





						Front Panel Express Your Expert for Front Panels and Enclosures
					

You design, we produce: high-quality custom front panels, enclosures and milled parts. CNC production, engraving, UV printing. Free design software!




					www.frontpanelexpress.com
				







__





						Front panels manufactured by the specialists at Cam Expert
					

Front panels custom-designed and manufactured by the leading specialists at Cam Expert. Our products are proudly made in the USA using high-end technology.



					www.cam-expert.com
				




Example of one of their panels I did many years ago.


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## davidpbest (Mar 18, 2020)

Mark that is quite the gizmo.   I think maybe it's time I had FrontPanel do a new cover plate for my 8-track tape unit.


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## ahazi (Mar 18, 2020)

My tubes were bigger (circa 1978)...






Ariel


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## DavidR8 (Mar 18, 2020)

Just dropped into the FrontPanel website. Very cool stuff, thanks for the lead.


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## parshal (Mar 18, 2020)

I think that's just a bunch of switches, knobs and lights.  It reminds me of Airplane 2 when William Shatner was looking at the board with red flashing lights and said "make them green".


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## parshal (Mar 28, 2020)

So, finally, I have my Mitutoyo DRO installed.  I bet I've got 15-20 hours into this thing and this is revision 4.8.  

First, I abandoned putting in a stop.  There's a horizontal section of casting that precludes one from using the factory hole unless I cut the casting which I decided against..  I'd need a much larger piece coming off the spindle collar to thread in the stop to put it in front of the faceplate and I felt that would obstruct my view more.

That horizontal casting also stopped me from putting the DRO bar behind the faceplate.  The hole I had made in the new faceplate fit the DRO perfect and was in the right location but the casting.  Of course, I didn't 'discover' the casting in the way until I was on revision 2.

I ordered a new faceplate without the rectangle cutout.  I tweaked the faceplate by reducing height by a few .01" to get it to fit just perfect and had the corners rounded a touch more.

I liked David's use of the rotary table for the spindle collar so I had to copy that, twice, maybe three times.  It looks like it was done by a 10th grader in shop class.

I'd say there's no way I could get paid to do machinist work.  My hourly wage would be .57 cents.


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## ahazi (Mar 28, 2020)

If I get it right you lost the quill stop functionality in exchange for the quill DRO. Right?

If I had to do it I will do the following:

Move the control box/VFD to the left (about 2 inch) by mounting it through spacers and longer screws to the head casting 
Keep the original stop
Install the DRO between the VFD and the head casting
I hope I make sense. I know you are tired from playing but this way you will not lose functionality. What do  you think?


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## parshal (Mar 28, 2020)

I didn’t really care for the factory stop.  I was going to install a BP type with 1/2-20 rod.  I don’t do a whole lot of repetive hole drilling so I think the DRO will suffice.  I had planned on putting the DRO in middle next to the stop.  There really wouldn’t be a need to move the vfd.


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## davidpbest (Mar 28, 2020)

Looks great Brian.


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## ahazi (Apr 19, 2020)

parshal said:


> So, finally, I have my Mitutoyo DRO installed.  I bet I've got 15-20 hours into this thing and this is revision 4.8.
> 
> First, I abandoned putting in a stop.  There's a horizontal section of casting that precludes one from using the factory hole unless I cut the casting which I decided against..  I'd need a much larger piece coming off the spindle collar to thread in the stop to put it in front of the faceplate and I felt that would obstruct my view more.
> 
> ...


This is a question to Brian and David and anyone else who has experience/opinion on adding a quill DRO.

In both of your installations and for David even going back to the RF45, the DRO beam is fixed and the display is moving. I believe that I found a way to have a moving beam and a fixed display inside the head of the PM833. This will eliminate the need for the SS rod that moves the display on the beam similar to installations in the pictures below. Any reasons not to do it this way? It seems to me like a simpler and cleaner solution.

Ariel


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## parshal (Apr 19, 2020)

I'd seen a few set up like that and considered it at first.  The reason I went with the rod was because it's a smaller form factor.  I didn't want the larger beam part of the DRO obstructing my view.  It would be nice to have the reader in the same spot, though.


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## davidpbest (Apr 19, 2020)

I don't see any particular reason you couldn't do as you said.   I have the Mitutoyo DRO on my PM1340 tailstock mounted as you describe.    The challenge you will run into is alignment of the beam.   If both the beam and display are anchored, the the beam has to be aligned to the dispaly at both ends of travel prior to locking the beam in position.   My RF45 did not have a cavity in the head casting to accept the display unit, otherwise I would have attempted that version.   Also, make sure you mount the display so that battery changes are easy.


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## ahazi (Apr 19, 2020)

parshal said:


> I'd seen a few set up like that and considered it at first.  The reason I went with the rod was because it's a smaller form factor.  I didn't want the larger beam part of the DRO obstructing my view.  It would be nice to have the reader in the same spot, though.





davidpbest said:


> I don't see any particular reason you couldn't do as you said.   I have the Mitutoyo DRO on my PM1340 tailstock mounted as you describe.    The challenge you will run into is alignment of the beam.   If both the beam and display are anchored, the the beam has to be aligned to the dispaly at both ends of travel prior to locking the beam in position.   My RF45 did not have a cavity in the head casting to accept the display unit, otherwise I would have attempted that version.   Also, make sure you mount the display so that battery changes are easy.



Thank you both!

I will go for it. The battery will not be an issue with the DRO that I have (Shars, see pictures). The alignment is something I think I can do. I will post pictures when I am done.

Ariel


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## davidpbest (Apr 19, 2020)

ahazi said:


> Thank you both!
> 
> I will go for it. The battery will not be an issue with the DRO that I have (Shars, see pictures). The alignment is something I think I can do. I will post pictures when I am done.
> 
> ...


For the record, I absolutely detest the Shars or any other Chinese-made digital scale like this.   They all eat batteries like crazy.    Watch *this video*, and *this video*. I own one of those Shars scales, and can confirm AvE's commentary.      Mitutoyo RULES !!!


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## davidpbest (Apr 19, 2020)

Ariel, *for your viewing pleasure*.   LOL


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## ahazi (Apr 25, 2020)

Did anyone measure the actual quill travel of the PM833? The spec is 5", I measure only 4"+ of travel. Not sure if something was assembled wrong in my mill or the spec was just "stretched" to look better or maybe the absence of a quill DRO allowed some "creativity"


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## ahazi (Apr 25, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> For the record, I absolutely detest the Shars or any other Chinese-made digital scale like this.   They all eat batteries like crazy.    Watch *this video*, and *this video*. I own one of those Shars scales, and can confirm AvE's commentary.      Mitutoyo RULES !!!


David,

I agree that the Mitutoyo calipers are better but some of the others (like iGaging) are not that bad. I got curious and probably with the extra time from the "stay home" situation I decided to actually measure my digital calipers. My Mitutoyo is really old (1985) but it still works. I really like my iGaging caliper and the current consumption is fair also the absolute encoder is really nice.

Anyway if anyone is interested in the real numbers here they are.


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## davidpbest (Apr 25, 2020)

ahazi said:


> Did anyone measure the actual quill travel of the PM833? The spec is 5", I measure only 4"+ of travel. Not sure if something was assembled wrong in my mill or the spec was just "stretched" to look better or maybe the absence of a quill DRO allowed some "creativity"


Your quill moves?


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## ahazi (Apr 25, 2020)

ahazi said:


> Did anyone measure the actual quill travel of the PM833? The spec is 5", I measure only 4"+ of travel. Not sure if something was assembled wrong in my mill or the spec was just "stretched" to look better or maybe the absence of a quill DRO allowed some "creativity"


Mystery solved... It's probably better to wait till the morning to look again at problems...

So it turns out that the 21mm hex head of the drawbar if "not positioned right" will limit the travel. See pictures below:









This is the "right position" to get full travel:









The "missing" 0.2" travel to make the spec of 5" is the O-ring that acts a spacer.

This is not a critical issue and it seems that a smaller hex head for the drawbar will guarantee full travel regardless of rotational position. I think that the standard size is 3/4" or 19 mm. Am I the only/first person discovering this?

Ariel


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## davidpbest (Apr 26, 2020)

I would expect this kind of thing from mainland China, but not from Taiwan.   Seems like the Taiwanese machines are getting pretty sloppy in some areas.   The original J-head on my PM935 was flawed and had to be replaced.


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## parshal (Apr 26, 2020)

There’s a recess for the o-ring at the top of the quill.  It’s still not large/deep enough to fully seat the ring.  When I replaced the collar I almost took the o-ring off but then realized it’s there to cushion the quill when it retracts.

My o-ring has paint overspray.  In my garage it’ll be cracked within the year and I don’t know how/if I’ll replace it.


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## mksj (Apr 26, 2020)

The O ring on the quill is pretty standard, on my BF30 it had a fairly strong return spring and the O ring would soften the full return. Lasted for many years, but if needed to be replaced the lower mount of the ram was easily removed with one clamping bolts in the back. One of the nice features of the drawbar was it was a smaller hex and there were flats on at the top of the spindle for a standard wrench to lock it. It was still a bit of a pain to switch tooling so I mostly used an ER32 collet system for end mills.  The spindle travel on the BF30 was 4".

The spindle DRO was integrated into the head and also the depth stop. They had two proximity stops in the head triggered off of the depth stop position for auto reverse with the tapping function.


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## ahazi (Apr 26, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> I would expect this kind of thing from mainland China, but not from Taiwan.   Seems like the Taiwanese machines are getting pretty sloppy in some areas.   The original J-head on my PM935 was flawed and had to be replaced.


I don't know if it is fair to assume that everything from Taiwan got worse because of this mismatch. I think that they made a mistake by picking a 21mm hex size for the drawbar head. I looked at my old RF25 drill/mill and the hex size there is 17mm. Obviously this is a bigger machine with more power so the main spline shaft is beefier so someone thought that "bigger is better" and used a 21mm hex head. I believe that standard BP drawbar size is 3/4" or 19mm which might be an easy fix for this machine. *Precision Matthews (QMT) - are you listening?*

Otherwise no complains so far. The machine makes lots of chips fast... The surface quality of machined parts is beautiful and it was easy to tram in the X direction and the column traming (Y direction) from the factory is dead on. I am getting the hang of the machine usage while fixing and improving around. *I like it!*

Next tasks are:
Coaxial light
Digital RPM indicator
3 phase motor and VFD install
Permanent install of a pneumatic power drawbar wrench.


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## davidpbest (Apr 26, 2020)

For the record, my comment about declining QC standards in Taiwan was not based solely on your drawbar hex-head.  Indeed, I have a observed a continuing list of issues and complaints that would not have been present 10-15 years ago.   The dive to the bottom has clearly infected a once superior manufacturing community.  

That said, I’m glad you are lavishing praise on the results this mill is producing.  We should do a bake-off comparison of your 833 against my 935 on removal rates, tolerances and surface finishes achieved using the same tooling.  I have $20 that says your 833 wins.


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## ahazi (Apr 26, 2020)

davidpbest said:


> For the record, my comment about declining QC standards in Taiwan was not based solely on your drawbar hex-head.  Indeed, I have a observed a continuing list of issues and complaints that would not have been present 10-15 years ago.   The dive to the bottom has clearly infected a once superior manufacturing community.
> 
> That said, I’m glad you are lavishing praise on the results this mill is producing.  We should do a bake-off comparison of your 833 against my 935 on removal rates, tolerances and surface finishes achieved using the same tooling.  I have $20 that says your 833 wins.



Yes, I am happy with the mill so far but not sure that I am a great benchmark (at least not yet...)

Sure. Setup a benchmark/test for the mills, I am game. It will also be an opportunity to check against the PM-833TV.


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## pushrax (Jul 20, 2020)

Did you ever get around to benchmarking? I'm deciding between these two exact mills, and those tests would be the missing data I'm looking for.


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## parshal (Jul 20, 2020)

I have not.  I got too caught up in making stuff.


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## ahazi (Jul 20, 2020)

pushrax said:


> Did you ever get around to benchmarking? I'm deciding between these two exact mills, and those tests would be the missing data I'm looking for.


Same for me. Got caught up in getting a PM1340GT lathe, building a base for the lathe, configuring the lathe, buying tools (lots...) and actually learning how to use a lathe which is something I did not do before.

An 833TV milling machine with a *2 step pulley* and a VFD will be a perfect machine in terms of infinitely variable speed, good low speed torque smoothness/quietness and a relatively small package. Absent of that I went with the geared PM833T and I am very happy with the machine. It is very powerful in low speed and I will get a higher top end speed later with a VFD. I got used to the gear noise that is only noticeable when you are not machining or drilling. 

In a nutshell all shop equipment purchase is a compromise between needs, cost, size, capabilities etc. So far I am happy with my choice.

I am still willing to try a benchmark test if we can define one.

Ariel


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## pushrax (Jul 20, 2020)

Thanks for the quick replies. Glad you're putting the machines to good use 

I agree - an 833TV with a 2 step pulley and VFD would be very versatile. I've started to wonder how hard a retrofit would be... I'm also leaning toward the 833T with a VFD as I can deal with noise, but I'm not sure the gearbox will handle higher speeds well. One of my major use cases will be fairly small feature sizes in aluminum, but I'm also aiming to handle occasional work on higher strength materials for a few applications (pressure systems, karting, minor automotive repair, etc). Compromise is certain.

parshal, in your projects on the 833TV have you had a chance to work with stainless or some of the other harder steels yet?

As for benchmarking, I have little to contribute... but I'll comment anyway. Between the 833T and 833TV, some lower-speed work bottlenecked by power would be a good comparison, maybe checking 3/4" drilling speed in a particular 304 steel? Between the 935 and 833, some large face milling to show off rigidity would be great, depending what tooling you all have. David will probably have some good ideas.


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## davidpbest (Jul 21, 2020)

pushrax said:


> As for benchmarking, I have little to contribute... but I'll comment anyway. Between the 833T and 833TV, some lower-speed work bottlenecked by power would be a good comparison, maybe checking 3/4" drilling speed in a particular 304 steel? Between the 935 and 833, some large face milling to show off rigidity would be great, depending what tooling you all have. David will probably have some good ideas.



You might *start at this link* and watch the four videos that follow.


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