# Advice on shop build...



## ArmyDoc (Jul 18, 2020)

Working on plans for a shop, and have a few questions.  I had assumed I would do roll-ups for the doors, since that's what I did in the barn.  On another thread, someone suggested bi-fold doors.    They seem very nice, but about 30% more expensive.  Worth it?  What other options are there out there?  What has been your experience?

Also, can someone talk to me about insulation?  The options seem to be fiberglass batting style, spray foam insulation, and foam panels.  I found one type of foam panel that has wood OSB on the inside.  I was thinking about using this, since it would also provide the inside wall material at the same time. https://www.bestmaterials.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=insullam    Anyone have  experience with this?

Appreciate the input.


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## NCjeeper (Jul 18, 2020)

My old shop was 850 sqft and I did the spray foam. It worked well. Only down fall is it covers up all your conduit and plumbing so you cant get to it unless you dig it out. It also damages easily so I covered it with osb board all the way around the shop. The shop I am building now I am using regular fiberglass rolls. 6" in the roof and 4" on the sides. Both 12x12 doors are insulated also.


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 18, 2020)

What kind of doors are you using, and what kind of insulation?


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## 7milesup (Jul 18, 2020)

First, the link you provided to the OSB boards with the insulation attached seems to be incredibly expensive.  My order of insulation is.... Closed cell spray foam, open cell spray foam, dense pack cellulose (no, it will not settle if you do it right), and lastly fiberglass batts.   I could write paragraphs here explaining why one is better than the other but for brevity, that is my short list.
I built a new house and shop last fall.  I was the general contractor and up in Northern Wisconsin, insulation is extremely important.  The largest delta (ROI) for a new construction is insulation.  It will pay itself back rather quickly, but more importantly, if done correctly your living space will FEEL better. 
I did closed cell spray foam in my house.  The contractor charged my $0.85 per "board" foot.  That is a 12x12x1" area.  So, to fill up my wall to the 5" or so cost me  $5 per square foot of wall space.  Yes, expensive but.... I spent $650 to heat my 3400 sq ft home last winter on LP, which is one of the more expensive sources of fuel.

I could have used fiberglass batts to do the walls, which is standard operating procedure, and it would have only cost me $0.31 per spuare foot of wall space, all the way out to the 5.5" of the wall cavity.  However, my wall has an R value of 35 whereas the fiberglass has R-19 at best, if done correctly.

My new shop though I did fiberglass batts with sanded 5/8" thick plywood over the studs, that way I can hang stuff anywhere I want without finding a stud.  Super, super nice to have that option.  That plywood cost me about $15 per 4x8 sheet at Menards.  The pre-made panels you linked are VERY expensive. 
If you spray foam and are worried about wiring later and what not, run the wire in EMT conduit on the outside of the plywood.  It can look nice if done correctly and easy to do.


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 18, 2020)

Thank you very much for the detailed reply.  I used spray foam in my house, and have been happy with it.  I read that in a metal building it wasn't as good because the metal tends to have condensation issues.  I don't know if this is true, or merely a sales ploy.  
If I build a 40x72x14 shed, I'm looking at~ 3100sqft for the walls, and another ~ 3000sqft for the roof. So 6250sqft to be safe. For spray foam, at $5/sq ft that 30,000 for insulation. Especially since I still need OSB boards arround the bottom. Granted OSB is only $15 each, I'd need ~ 56 to do the first floor, so another ~850. Can't swing it.
The insullam is $3.31 a sq ft, but includes the OSB.  That's about the top of my budget. (trying to keep insulation under $7500)

Fiberglass and OSB is well under that, but is it the best option?  

I've read about some closed cell radiant barrier products like this one: https://www.insulation4less.com/insulation4lessproduct-62-prodex-total-10m.aspx#fragment1  It's a little more than $1.50 a sq ft.  Supposed to give R22?  Not sure how it does this, I guess using dead space behind barrier?


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## NCjeeper (Jul 18, 2020)

ArmyDoc said:


> I read that in a metal building it wasn't as good because the metal tends to have condensation issues.  I don't know if this is true, or merely a sales ploy.


 Maybe a ploy. I never had any issues in mine.


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## mickri (Jul 18, 2020)

Have you looked into SIP's.  Structural insulated panels.  They have OSB on both sides with foam in the middle.  They come in a variety of widths starting at I believe 4 1/2".  Construction goes very quickly.  Here are some videos to give you an idea on how they go together.


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## 7milesup (Jul 18, 2020)

The metal building and condensation should not be an issue.  The factor that would affect it is of course the indoor air quality, such as moisture level in the air.  You are in a different area of the country so I would assume cooling load is greater than heating load.  Up here, if we have more than about 40% humidity in the winter, one can expect some moisture issues around windows and doors, but if a vapor barrier is properly applied, it should not be an issue.  Speaking of vapor barrier, the closed cell foam is the vapor barrier so none needed.  
If I were you, I would look at doing fiberglass batts, but making sure the installation is done properly.  For example, if there are wires running through the walls, you must split the batts to go on both sides of the wires.  Here is a good video on how to do it properly... This old house fiberglass install.

The bubble wrap type of product that you linked is, in my opinion, a scam.  There are ways that they can claim their R-value, but it does not work in real world applications in my opinion.


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## 7milesup (Jul 18, 2020)

The SIP panels would be a great option too.
Also ArmyDoc, I did not realize how big of a shop you were looking at.  That thing is huge!


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## BGHansen (Jul 19, 2020)

My shop is in a 40 x 96 pole barn. Shop occupies the front 40 x 32 with a 40 x 24 "annex". I used 6" kraft paper batts in the walls.  Have 12" of batts in the ceiling (only have a ceiling over the shop area). The main outside door is a 16' slider which is 2 x 4 construction on the flats. That has 1 1/2" styrofoam in it and is my weak link. Doesn't seal well to the walls and can be a challenge to open in the winter.

If I was doing it again from scratch, I'd look at a roll up insulated door. My father in law has two in his shop. In my case, I don't open the slider much if at all in the winter. I've thought about remaking the slider to a 2x4 panel on edge to get some extra insulation. Or easier, just make some panels from styrofoam and attach them to the door in the winter.

My shop barn started life with a shingled roof, but was reroofed in steel. The steel is on synthetic tar paper over 7/16" osb. No condensation at all. The back 40x40 is a steel roof over perlins and there is a fair amount of condensation off it. There are drip spots on the dirt floor where the condensation runs off the perlins.

The insulated shop is very comfortable in the summer when it's 90F outside, gets up to maybe 80F. Annex is at 90+ so +1 on the insulation. I have two ceiling fans that run 24/7 in the shop and very little if any problems with rust. I'll be installing a 125,000 btu overhead heater by this fall.

Bruce


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 19, 2020)

7milesup said:


> The metal building and condensation should not be an issue.  The factor that would affect it is of course the indoor air quality, such as moisture level in the air.  You are in a different area of the country so I would assume cooling load is greater than heating load.  Up here, if we have more than about 40% humidity in the winter, one can expect some moisture issues around windows and doors, but if a vapor barrier is properly applied, it should not be an issue.  Speaking of vapor barrier, the closed cell foam is the vapor barrier so none needed.
> If I were you, I would look at doing fiberglass batts, but making sure the installation is done properly.  For example, if there are wires running through the walls, you must split the batts to go on both sides of the wires.  Here is a good video on how to do it properly... This old house fiberglass install.
> 
> The bubble wrap type of product that you linked is, in my opinion, a scam.  There are ways that they can claim their R-value, but it does not work in real world applications in my opinion.



40% humidity sounds like a dream.  Here in Georgia, the LOWEST we get is 40%, and that is mid afternoon, in the morning it usually 80%, whith about half the year at 90%.  When I go out to the pole barn in the morning, the condensation can be so bad you can see the little drops of water all over the surface of the roof.  I didn't do any insulation in there because the top half of the stall are open.  The steel building contractors and pole barn contractors all are telling me I need insulation to prevent condensation if I fully enclose it and want to air condition it, because am dew point is 70-75 degrees.  Of course AC will also decrease the humidity inside, so that will help too, I hope.



mickri said:


> Have you looked into SIP's.  Structural insulated panels.  They have OSB on both sides with foam in the middle.  They come in a variety of widths starting at I believe 4 1/2".  Construction goes very quickly.  Here are some videos to give you an idea on how they go together.



I looked into the SIPs first, and the insullam product kind of as an off shoot of that.  I talked to a couple of SIPs producer/suppliers and they basically told me they weren't competative, because after you put up the walls, you still need a sheathing on the outside.  The Insullam product was my way initial thought as to how to do a SIP, utilizing the steel wall for the outside.  I haven't found an SIP that does steel on the outside and wood on the inside, though I have found one that does steel for both.  But the Insullam is only an R14 with 4 inches of foam and 5/8 sheet.

Currently, I'm thinking of using some kind of combination vapour/radiant barrier between the metal sheeting and the frame (it ranges from $0.25-0.45 per square foot) followed by fiberglass, and 0SB or plywood.... but still researching all of this.


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 19, 2020)

BGHansen said:


> My shop is in a 40 x 96 pole barn. Shop occupies the front 40 x 32 with a 40 x 24 "annex". I used 6" kraft paper batts in the walls.  Have 12" of batts in the ceiling (only have a ceiling over the shop area). The main outside door is a 16' slider which is 2 x 4 construction on the flats. That has 1 1/2" styrofoam in it and is my weak link. Doesn't seal well to the walls and can be a challenge to open in the winter.
> 
> If I was doing it again from scratch, I'd look at a roll up insulated door. My father in law has two in his shop. In my case, I don't open the slider much if at all in the winter. I've thought about remaking the slider to a 2x4 panel on edge to get some extra insulation. Or easier, just make some panels from styrofoam and attach them to the door in the winter.
> 
> ...


The doors are a big consideration - both size, insulation and type.  I think I want doors that are 12 ft wide.  Maneuvering large ag equipment through anything less than 12 ft is difficult.  12 isn't bad, 14 is probably better.  Not sure if 2 large doors is better, or 3 smaller doors.  I suspect that going to 50 ft wide would be needed to do 3 doors, and doors are expensive, so probably 2 doors 12-14 ft wide is where I will end up.   Right now, the over-all layout will look something like this:  (this is 40x60 and  I've drawn it with 3 doors, but I don't think thre 10ft doors is the right answer)


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## 7milesup (Jul 19, 2020)

Vapor barrier ALWAYS goes on the inside of the building.  If you put it between the steel and the framing, you will end up with water at that point and if there is insulation against it, the insulation will get wet.  
Controlling condensation is all about controlling indoor air moisture, insulation (the more you have, the less condensation is an issue) and proper placement of the vapor barrier.  
SIP panels can easily have steel placed on the outside.  Don't think of it as a monolithic build, but rather as a multi-system.

If you want, I would be glad to talk to you.  I would normally say that I am not expert, but after building my last 2 houses and talking to contractors, I have realized that I know far more than most builders.  I should really do consulting.  LOL


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## 7milesup (Jul 19, 2020)

I would agree on door size.  A little different size requirement than you but I put 10 foot wide doors for all of my overheads.  Standard is 8 foot width residential and I don't know how I would get my Ram truck in and out of there without folding the mirrors.

As far as the door itself, Schweiss Bi-fold doors might be worth looking into.   I believe they are made in Minnesota and they have been in business for a very long time.  When I was part of the team for building a new airport, I think we bought 25 doors from them at once.  One of them was 80 foot wide.
I see now that they are utilizing straps instead of cables for the lift system.  Schweiss Bifold doors


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## 7milesup (Jul 19, 2020)

I hope this all makes sense to you ArmyDoc.  I went back and proof read some of my stuff and found some mistakes.  I suffered a serious injury 5 weeks or so ago and still having an issue with words and sentences.


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## Stonebriar (Jul 19, 2020)

I did closed cell spray foam, the recommended product for steel buildings. 2" in walls and 3" on ceiling.  The standard is 1" for walls and 2" on ceiling.  My bill was $9,600 Then I went around the bottom 8' with 3/4" plywood painted white to mount electrical and other stuff. The building is 40x60x12.  I am very happy with it. It is now air conditioned with a 5 ton heat pump.


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## 7milesup (Jul 19, 2020)

Stonebriar said:


> I did closed cell spray foam, the recommended product for steel buildings. 2" in walls and 3" on ceiling.  The standard is 1" for walls and 2" on ceiling.  My bill was $9,600 Then I went around the bottom 8' with 3/4" plywood painted white to mount electrical and other stuff. The building is 40x60x12.  I am very happy with it. It is now air conditioned with a 5 ton heat pump.



The closed cell will give you about 6.5-7 of R-value per inch.  Up here R-19 is minimum for walls, but obviously I am in a heating zone.  So, 3" of foam would certainly give you an R-value of 20+.


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 19, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Vapor barrier ALWAYS goes on the inside of the building.  If you put it between the steel and the framing, you will end up with water at that point and if there is insulation against it, the insulation will get wet.
> Controlling condensation is all about controlling indoor air moisture, insulation (the more you have, the less condensation is an issue) and proper placement of the vapor barrier.
> SIP panels can easily have steel placed on the outside.  Don't think of it as a monolithic build, but rather as a multi-system.
> 
> If you want, I would be glad to talk to you.  I would normally say that I am not expert, but after building my last 2 houses and talking to contractors, I have realized that I know far more than most builders.  I should really do consulting.  LOL



Now I'm confused.   All of the steel metal buildings are putting the radiant and vapor barrier insulation between the outer skin and the support structure.  Check this site - there's a picture about 3/4 of the way down, right before the conclusion which is pretty much what I am envisioning.    https://gensteel.com/building-faqs/building-customizations/insulation-options/



7milesup said:


> I would agree on door size.  A little different size requirement than you but I put 10 foot wide doors for all of my overheads.  Standard is 8 foot width residential and I don't know how I would get my Ram truck in and out of there without folding the mirrors.
> 
> As far as the door itself, Schweiss Bi-fold doors might be worth looking into.   I believe they are made in Minnesota and they have been in business for a very long time.  When I was part of the team for building a new airport, I think we bought 25 doors from them at once.  One of them was 80 foot wide.
> I see now that they are utilizing straps instead of cables for the lift system.  Schweiss Bifold doors



Oh man, those look great!  I would love to do the Schweis Bifold doors!  Unfortunately, I think they are between $6500 and $7500 a piece.  Can't find prices on their site, but found some other bifold doors in that range...



7milesup said:


> I hope this all makes sense to you ArmyDoc.  I went back and proof read some of my stuff and found some mistakes.  I suffered a serious injury 5 weeks or so ago and still having an issue with words and sentences.



Oh no!  I hope you are ok, and recover quickly.


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 19, 2020)

Stonebriar said:


> I did closed cell spray foam, the recommended product for steel buildings. 2" in walls and 3" on ceiling.  The standard is 1" for walls and 2" on ceiling.  My bill was $9,600 Then I went around the bottom 8' with 3/4" plywood painted white to mount electrical and other stuff. The building is 40x60x12.  I am very happy with it. It is now air conditioned with a 5 ton heat pump.


That is good to know!  Your weather is probably very similar to mine.  What kind of closed cell spray foam did you use?  Is there a specific type that is recommended for steel buildings?  It would sure be simpler to use one product and application rather than two...


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## samstu (Jul 19, 2020)

Depending on size / layout / uses of shop, consider a back door or window as an emergency escape.


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## Stonebriar (Jul 19, 2020)

No specific type that I know of, just closed cell vs open cell.  The spray guy said closed cell for metal to seal in air and control condensation.  In addition to offering a higher R-value per inch, closed-cell foam insulation acts as an adhesive and can increase your building’s overall structural integrity.  I know when I got up on the roof there was no give. Like when I had an fiberglass insulated roof I had to be careful walking not to dent it.


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 19, 2020)

samstu said:


> Depending on size / layout / uses of shop, consider a back door or window as an emergency escape.


Yes, two roll ups or other equipment doors on one end, regular door on opposite end in corner, and a smaller roll up in the other corner / welding area.


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## Stonebriar (Jul 19, 2020)

You'll notice we spray painted the foam white above the plywood for brightness. If you have foam you now it turns yellow with time.


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## f350ca (Jul 19, 2020)

Large doors are usually a large heat loss. My shop is used only as a shop so made a 10 x 10  barn style door from 4 inch SIP panels, They come in 4 foot width so bought 3 and made up 5 foot sections. Cored through the foam with hardwood dowels where the hinges bolt on. Been hanging for 14 or so years now with no sag. The bolt heads from hinges will frost up when it gets below -30 C but the door face stays warm. Incidentally they're light enough I stood them and hung them by myself. 
The building is 24 x 36 story and a half with the upper floor being a cabinet shop. Only have 10 foot ceilings as I didn't want the building too high. Can only get my pickup about 4 feet off the floor on the car hoist but its a lot beter than crawling under it.
The walls are 2x6 balloon framed then straped with 2x2s horizontal on the outside. 4 inch fibreglass batts were split to insulate that. This breaks the thermal bridging the studs create. 
I installed radiant heat on both floors but the machine shops concrete floor creates too much of a heat sink in such a well insulated building. If we get a few really cold days the floor warms up to compensate, then I sweat for a week till it cools down again. The cabinet shop works great with the radiant in the wood floor, no thermal mass to deal with. I added a small radiator with a fan downstairs to warm the place up after you opened the big door to move equipment in. In the winter it comes on 2 or 3 times a day to heat the space without the radiant on.
We've had a month of 30 degree days, the machine shop is still at 21 C with no cooling.






Greg


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## DavidR8 (Jul 19, 2020)

That’s a nice looking building Greg!


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 19, 2020)

Wow.  That looks really nice Stonebridge.  Really nice set up Greg.


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## HMiller (Jul 20, 2020)

I'm the one who mentioned bi fold doors. I am still looking at options my self, but those come up. They can be insulated unlike many other options. They don't take up valuable space inside when open which is often important. But again I'm not sure what I will get. But the sliding doors I have need to go - assuming the bonus this year is good. I need to control humidity and that is a lost cause when a creek runs two sides of my shed maybe 30 feet away... 

I'll probably do dense pack insulation, closed cell foam is nice, but expensive. For the ceiling I can put in more total r value for the same money. For the walls not as much, but still close enough.


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 20, 2020)

What size are you looking at, and what do you think the bifold will run? You'll have to let me know how you like them. I'm probably 6 months from my build (at least I hope so!)

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## HMiller (Jul 20, 2020)

I haven't measured. I have a 60x40 pole barn that I'm not happy with the sliding door on. I suppose 15 or 20 feet wide, and 10 feet tall. Needs next year's bonus though, so I haven't done anything. 

I might go with a Hydraulic door instead, they are one piece and more expensive but I think I know a guy at church... 

Before anything I need more than 30 amp service there, and wires, conduit or whatever so I have power for whatever happens next. Then insulation to keep the temperature stable. Then a door, then ac. Then, we'll there is always something, you know how it goes.


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## ArmyDoc (Jul 20, 2020)

Absolutely. I was supposed to build last year, but...

Actually its a good thing. I know more now and I think I'll be happier with current plans than the original ones.

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## westerner (Jul 20, 2020)

7milesup said:


> I built a new house and shop last fall. I was the general contractor and up in Northern Wisconsin, insulation is extremely important. The largest delta (ROI) for a new construction is insulation. It will pay itself back rather quickly, but more importantly, if done correctly your living space will FEEL better.
> I did closed cell spray foam in my house. The contractor charged my $0.85 per "board" foot. That is a 12x12x1" area. So, to fill up my wall to the 5" or so cost me $5 per square foot of wall space. Yes, expensive but.... I spent $650 to heat my 3400 sq ft home last winter on LP, which is one of the more expensive sources of fuel.


This is the guy to listen to. NOT a contractor, simply a smart guy who asks a bazillion questions of the contractors.


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## StevSmar (Jul 21, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Vapor barrier ALWAYS goes on the inside of the building...


It's my understanding that in a cold climate this can be largely true. In a hot climate the vapour barrier can be on the outside (so it's more of a rain-barrier then). I believe it depends on where the dewpoint is within the wall assembly.

I live in Winnipeg, so we put our vapour barrier about 2m in from the wall...
(that was a joke on how cold it is in Winnipeg. We put it under the drywall if there is no foam insulation. If there is foam insulation plus batt insulation, then we don't use a vapour barrier since the dewpoint is somewhere inside the foam. As long as the wall assembly can dry to either the inside our the outside everything is good.)
(I've seen walls where there is foam on the outside, batt over that and then a vapour barrier on the inside- it's very concerning to see the amount of moisture that can get trapped under the plastic in a new house)


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## HMiller (Jul 21, 2020)

The point is to keep moisture out of the wall as best as possible. The hotter side typically has more moisture so you want the vapor barrier there if possible. Of course there are other considerations and compromises. If you have hot and cold seasons you can't move the barrier twice a year (at least not for a reasonable price). If you have foam on the outside that forces the vapor barrier outside too, but foam on the outside is such a win that it is worth it. 

I'm more concerned with the total insulation above the rest though, the more you add the better.


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## 7milesup (Jul 21, 2020)

The vapor barrier placement IS dependent on dewpoint.  As I mentioned earlier, control of humidity inside the building via conditioned air will go a long ways in mitigating moisture issues within the building envelope.  One of the concerns though is you do not want two vapor barriers (actually, the correct term is vapor retarder).   You do not want a vapor retarder on the inside wall and the outside wall because moisture will become trapped and create issues withing the wall cavity.  
Closed cell spray foam is considered air impermeable at .1 perm (or less).  In my house, I sprayed over 2" of closed cell foam and then covered the studs with traditional drywall.  No vapor barrier was installed because the wall needs to breath between the sheetrock and foam.  Even if I painted the drywall with non-permeable paint, that would have created in issue inside of the wall cavity during winter months.
So, after saying all that, I am thinking that your vapor barrier needs to be on the outside if you live in a hot climate.  There are zones for determining where to put the vapor barrier.  I am much more versed for cold climate construction, so I apologize for that.  
I would suggest checking out this article in Journal of Light Construction. Also, Walls that work in the South. And, Moisture management.


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