# BROWN & SHARPE UNIVERSAL DIVIDING HEAD



## BROCKWOOD

Here we are in the Beginner's Forum because quite honestly there is not a YouTube channel or Google search that will give you enough answers to figure out how to do what it is that you want to do.  We are all on our own in figuring out just what comes next.  It is fun to glean ideas from those that do share!  I watch YouTube a lot & consider it to be my latest foray of learning.  As a wantabe machinist, YouTube is my college.
Today's topic, the beginning of this class, is what to do with incorrect or otherwise no longer work properly parts on an old Brown & Sharpe Dividing Head. Seen it on so many YouTube channels rights????  In this class, we will begin with a random eBay purchase. 1st pic.  As advertised.  2nd pic. on the table awaiting reassembly from as shipped.  Now looking at the area around where the dividing wheel mounts.............What is up with the shaft?  That little plunger that gets locked out of the way & is never covered on YouTube............This 1 needs to be finished out. The set point in the set screw doesn't even fit the slot. So, this is where we will start.  Questions?


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## 4GSR

That little piece in the third picture should have a spring behind it when assembled into that hole just above the stem where the index plate  mounts.
When you are using it for straight indexing, the pin is lined up with the hole nearest to it in the index plate you are using.  When using the dividing head for cutting helixes and I believe differential indexing, the pin is not engaged with the index plate.  It's been over 30 years since the last time I used the one I had, which was just like this one in the pictures.


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## BROCKWOOD

Thanks Ken. Yes the spring is still in the housing.  Just trying to get the pin on the end of the set screw to fit the slot in the larger pin. Then it's on to the rest of what needs to be brought back to stock.


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## seasicksteve

I think I have the gear set that goes to that style dividing head. They dont fit the cinci head I have


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## BROCKWOOD

Hoping to keep progress going on this restoration. I ordered up a set of mini end mills to put the slot size right for the pin in pic 1.  Also, in the same pic is 1 of 2 screws needed for the slide adjuster.  I have to make another since there should be 2.  In the next pic, there is what appears to be a bit of mangled up allen wrench for a pin.  Does anyone have a clear pic of what this should look like?


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## 4GSR

I don't recall mine having the set screw or the thumb screw.  Seem like there was a pin driven into the piece the slotted piece went into.  That thumb screw is not original.  Mine had the index handle go thru a rectangular slot in the shaft in your bottom picture, instead of having an offset piece that it fits into as yours has.  I think someone has been monkeying with yours.


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## BROCKWOOD

OldMachinist, in his thread shows a very similar arrangement to mine for the thumbscrews.  All the same - mine has been monkeyed with.  I intend to undo all the monkey business.  I've shown the index crank handle assembly on top of the unit itself to point out another difference.  Instead of the neat little popup oilers, I have 2 grease zerts, 1 of which is in a different location.  Mine must be a newer version.


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## 4GSR

Okay, I see where the thumb screw goes.  Mine was a little older model from yours and didn't have that feature.  Sorry.


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## benmychree

4gsr said:


> That little piece in the third picture should have a spring behind it when assembled into that hole just above the stem where the index plate  mounts.
> When you are using it for straight indexing, the pin is lined up with the hole nearest to it in the index plate you are using.  When using the dividing head for cutting helixes and I believe differential indexing, the pin is not engaged with the index plate.  It's been over 30 years since the last time I used the one I had, which was just like this one in the pictures.


I have one and use it frequently; yes, what you state is correct regarding the pin behind the dividing plate.


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## benmychree

seasicksteve said:


> I think I have the gear set that goes to that style dividing head. They dont fit the cinci head I have


I have a set for a Cincinnati dividing head and the housing that the change gears mount in for table drive of the dividing head; I'd like to sell them, as they do not fit my Brown & Sharpe --- which I do have all the gearing for, including the short lead attachment.


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## benmychree

4gsr said:


> I don't recall mine having the set screw or the thumb screw.  Seem like there was a pin driven into the piece the slotted piece went into.  That thumb screw is not original.  Mine had the index handle go thru a rectangular slot in the shaft in your bottom picture, instead of having an offset piece that it fits into as yours has.  I think someone has been monkeying with yours.


The pin you see in the worm shaft is the original, that is how they are supposed to look.


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## benmychree

BROCKWOOD said:


> OldMachinist, in his thread shows a very similar arrangement to mine for the thumbscrews.  All the same - mine has been monkeyed with.  I intend to undo all the monkey business.  I've shown the index crank handle assembly on top of the unit itself to point out another difference.  Instead of the neat little popup oilers, I have 2 grease zerts, 1 of which is in a different location.  Mine must be a newer version
> 
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> View attachment 234965
> View attachment 234966
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> .


My dividing head is the same as the one pictured, it has the zerk fittings also.


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## 4GSR

benmychree said:


> The pin you see in the worm shaft is the original, that is how they are supposed to look.



How do you know that is the way it is?

Brown and Sharpe made several different versions of this dividing head in it's day and some of them vary just a little and some of them are obviously different.
The one I had was much older than these in the picture and mine had a pin driven in and not a modified special set screw. 

Let's be careful with our words here.  And nothing wrong with chiming in and letting us know how yours is alike or different from others.

Ken


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## benmychree

4gsr said:


> How do you know that is the way it is?
> 
> Brown and Sharpe made several different versions of this dividing head in it's day and some of them vary just a little and some of them are obviously different.
> The one I had was much older than these in the picture and mine had a pin driven in and not a modified special set screw.
> 
> Let's be careful with our words here.  And nothing wrong with chiming in and letting us know how yours is alike or different from others.
> 
> Ken


I have had several of these over the years, and they were all alike in that respect; you need to be able to unscrew the driving pin to be able to remove and change the index plates.  To be sure there are differences between older and newer dividing heads; the earliest had a tapered spindle and iron bearings in the body, and there were several different methods and mechanisms to disengage the worm from the worm wheel, but I think the dividing plate and sector arm and the pin that locks the plate from the back are the same in all that I have ever seen.


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## 4GSR

Okay, different driving pin.  Yeah, you're right on that one.   I'm still stuck on the little pin that holds the spring loaded piece that engages the index plate for simple indexing.

Hey,  Never mind, I'm wrong, I see the hole in one of the pictures above that the pin goes in.


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## benmychree

On mine, the pin fits into the collar that fits in the sleeve that carries the back index pin; when you push the index pin against the spring and rotate the collar with the pin engaging in the keyway in the pin carrier, and rotate the collar into the circumfrential groove in the pin carrier, it locks the pin out of engagement with the back of the index disc so that it may freely rotate when doing spiral cutting or differential indexing.  It also makes it easier to change index plates by not having the pressure against the plate tending to cock it and make it difficult to start the screws in the plate.


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## BROCKWOOD

BENMYCHREE wrote, "On mine, the pin fits into the collar (42) that fits in the sleeve (40) that carries the back index pin (43); when you push the index pin against the spring and rotate the collar with the pin engaging in the keyway in the pin carrier, and rotate the collar into the circumferential groove in the pin carrier, it locks the pin out of engagement with the back of the index disc so that it may freely rotate when doing spiral cutting or differential indexing. It also makes it easier to change index plates by not having the pressure against the plate tending to cock it and make it difficult to start the screws in the plate."

Guys, the drawing doesn't fit all versions, isn't complete & does not offer up an official name for any of the parts (such as would be seen on a parts list).  I am thrilled that this open discussion has begun.  But, I realize that in introducing part 2 before finishing part 1, much confusion crept in.  I apologize.  Before deconstructing all this back to part 1, I must thank BENMYCHREE  on 2 parts: 
1st is the Driving Pin (not shown in the drawing).  He mentioned that it unscrews.  Mine simply looks to be a piece of Allen key that had been driven into part (27) so hard that it fractured.  Screwdriver slot is that bad.  I'll be making a replacement.
2nd is the above quote that describes just what all it is we are talking about.  I tried to add part numbers to his part descriptions, but ran out of parts in the drawing to refer to.

I also thank 4GSR for his input!

Now SEASICKSTEVE & BENMYCHREE might have parts going to where they can be put to good use!  All in all, to quote my favorite line from the movie Overboard, "It's been a hell of a day at sea Sir!"

I'll pick back up on part 1 when my mini end mills come in so repairs can be made to the back index pin (43).

Keep Rockin,
b


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## benmychree

The parts diagram, although generally it is illustrative and fairly true to the original it is not made by B&S, but by a Japanese manufacturer; I bought one of these new, and used it many years until I was able to find a genuine one; thanks, E Bay!


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## 4GSR

BROCKWOOD said:


> View attachment 235000
> 
> BENMYCHREE wrote, "On mine, the pin fits into the collar (42) that fits in the sleeve (40) that carries the back index pin (43); when you push the index pin against the spring and rotate the collar with the pin engaging in the keyway in the pin carrier, and rotate the collar into the circumferential groove in the pin carrier, it locks the pin out of engagement with the back of the index disc so that it may freely rotate when doing spiral cutting or differential indexing. It also makes it easier to change index plates by not having the pressure against the plate tending to cock it and make it difficult to start the screws in the plate."
> 
> Guys, the drawing doesn't fit all versions, isn't complete & does not offer up an official name for any of the parts (such as would be seen on a parts list).  I am thrilled that this open discussion has begun.  But, I realize that in introducing part 2 before finishing part 1, much confusion crept in.  I apologize.  Before deconstructing all this back to part 1, I must thank BENMYCHREE  on 2 parts:
> 1st is the Driving Pin (not shown in the drawing).  He mentioned that it unscrews.  Mine simply looks to be a piece of Allen key that had been driven into part (27) so hard that it fractured.  Screwdriver slot is that bad.  I'll be making a replacement.
> 2nd is the above quote that describes just what all it is we are talking about.  I tried to add part numbers to his part descriptions, but ran out of parts in the drawing to refer to.
> 
> I also thank 4GSR for his input!
> 
> Now SEASICKSTEVE & BENMYCHREE might have parts going to where they can be put to good use!  All in all, to quote my favorite line from the movie Overboard, "It's been a hell of a day at sea Sir!"
> 
> I'll pick back up on part 1 when my mini end mills come in so repairs can be made to the back index pin (43).
> 
> Keep Rockin,
> b


Hey, is there a chance of getting a scan of your manual to your dividing head?  I know there is a scan of the BS-1 manual/parts book in the down loads... I'm to go look to see if the BS-2 manual exists.

EDIT:

Here's the scan available to all here.  Yeah, it's from the Japanese company, too.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/b-s-dividing-head-n0-0-1-2-specs-pdf.2216/


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## BROCKWOOD

Hey Ken, I have manipulated page 6 from the usual B&S 0-1-2 that we all have seen.  All I did was cut out the B&S 0, 1 & tailstock portions then move the title & resize it all.  I wish I did have a manual that answered the questions we have raised on this thread!


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## benmychree

BROCKWOOD said:


> Hey Ken, I have manipulated page 6 from the usual B&S 0-1-2 that we all have seen.  All I did was cut out the B&S 0, 1 & tailstock portions then move the title & resize it all.  I wish I did have a manual that answered the questions we have raised on this thread!


I am fairly sure that I have a parts book that covers the dividing head, will look tomorrow; if you can find a manual on a #2 universal mill, it would include parts for the dividing head.


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## BROCKWOOD

benmychree said:


> I am fairly sure that I have a parts book that covers the dividing head, will look tomorrow; if you can find a manual on a #2 universal mill, it would include parts for the dividing head.



This is as good as I've found today.  The no2 Mill hint was key!  Thanks.


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## BROCKWOOD

Well, those pics hurt my eyes after posting them.  Any suggestions?  They are much better on my hard drive.


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## 4GSR

BROCKWOOD said:


> Well, those pics hurt my eyes after posting them.  Any suggestions?  They are much better on my hard drive.


Scan and post as a PDF file may help.


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## benmychree

Those are better than the ones that I found, one is for the later type that is made more like a Cincinnati, the other is an earlier plain bearing type.


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## BROCKWOOD

*.PDF VERSION


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## BROCKWOOD

Still waiting on my mini end mills to come, so that I can fix my Index Stop Pin (702).  They should be here tomorrow, but I have a 12 hour shift........
Progress, I looked into the Spindle Stop (706 & 707).  I noticed a detent in the 706 portion but no springs or brass on any of this.  So I made springs & a brass 'bullet'.  Having 'clocked' the spur gear to get the detent to function properly, I find the handle is pointing the wrong way.  Gonna take heat to get the screw loose so that it can be turned around.
Moving forward, the Worm Shaft Pinion Knob & Nut (717 & 716) apparently came with the nut locked down by a small dowel into the main body & the knob had 4 set screws holding it tight to the nut.  Somebody wanted the Index permanently engaged. 
Same pics, The forward Spiral Gear Guard (no number) is Brass & is cleaning up nicely!
Now the other WHY?  I have for now is the Worm Shaft Adjusting Screw (703).  It will be interesting to see why a bolt was added to it.
As always:  Ideas, Answers, theories & Solutions are welcome!


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## 4GSR

It never ceases me to wonder why people do things like that!


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## markba633csi

There's a simple equation for that:  Precision equipment + incompetents = damage
Mark S.


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## Silverbullet

Hammer and chisel man.,  not even a backyard mechanic.
I just got a small l&w  dividing head , I hope it's not abused this bad.


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## benmychree

Nothing is so bad that it can't be worse!  That dividing head has several small problems, but they look to be minor, nothing that cannot be fixed.  We are starting with a mechanism that is nearly the pinnacle of American design and manufacture, all it needs is some TLC.  I had to buy three dividing heads on e rape before I had all the parts to make a satisfactory dividing head for my #2 Universal light type milling machine; a person just has to accept the fact that nothing in this world is perfect and one must expend some effort to have something that approaches perfection.  In my mind there are two manufacturers that came closest to that ideal; B&S for one, and Pratt & Whitney for another; both date back to the beginnings of industrial excellence in this country.


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## BROCKWOOD

I agree this is a worthy candidate for restoration benmychree! Still don't have my mini endmills, but did buy the other 2 indexing plates & have my eye on a few tailstocks. Any chance you could take pics of your indexing gearset? I'm curious of as to what the hole diameters are & of what the mounting brackets measure to. Thanks for all your input everyone!


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## benmychree

BROCKWOOD said:


> I agree this is a worthy candidate for restoration benmychree! Still don't hamy mini endmills, but did buy the other 2 indexing plates & have my eye on a few tailstocks. Any chance you could take pics of your indexing gearset? I'm curious of as to what the hole diameters are & of what the mounting brackets measure to. Thanks for all your input everyone!


I will do that in the next few days  The hole diameter on all the change gears is 1".  It seems that most of the gear sets stayed with the machine itself in the compartment in the machine base.


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## BROCKWOOD

Mini end mills came in. 5/64 - 9/64. But 12 hour shift begs me to wait until tomorrow night to begin using them.


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## benmychree

BROCKWOOD said:


> Mini end mills came in. 5/64 - 9/64. But 12 hour shift begs me to wait until tomorrow night to begin using them.
> 
> View attachment 235306


I have sketches made of the gear mounting brackets and the shaft that drives the change gears when doing differential indexing; it replaces the center that normally is used in the spindle hole and I also found a drawing of a crank handle that fits over the dividing head crank that is handy when doing rotary milling with the dividing head; I saw one in a B&S publication but have never seen one as a catalog item.
Rather than try to scan the drawings, I'd rather send them to you through the mail; E Mail me at york@napanet.net with your mailing address.


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## BROCKWOOD

Index stop pin (702) cleaned up very nicely with a 3/32" end mill.  Works good as new!  I wasn't happy with the spring I had picked for Spindle Stop (707) so beehived the end of a stronger spring & that works much better.  Now the detent spring for the Spindle Stop Lever (706) will take some figuring & a better 'bullet'.  Just about ready to blow this thing apart for some restoring!!!  Also, have the other 2 index plates & some of the gear train coming soon.  Looks like this dividing head will be making it's own gears.


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## BROCKWOOD

New parts came in today! I thank John for his help.  Packing on the index plates is over the top.  The 1 on the left, however, has all the holes too small.  It's a start.  Idler gear / bracket & crank handle though, awesome!!


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## benmychree

Do you have a copy of B&S "Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines"?  It is a must have item; today my project was graduating a 12" blacksmith's brass hook rule; it is done by gearing the dividing head spindle to the mill table as illustrated in the aforementioned book, and in the case of the rule I made is graduated in 1/16" graduations, 12" long made of 1/8" brass with a handle at one end and a hook on the other; for 1/16" graduations it takes about 5 min. per inch of graduations, 10 turns of the worm shaft being required for that interval.  I hope to take and post some pictures of the operations.
Brockwood, I'm happy to see that the items arrived in good order; after I sent them off I found two of the washer faced bolts that hold the idler gear and compound gear brackets on the dividing head and end of table, but they need to be threaded back a little more to be usable and they do not have the screwdriver slot on the face of the hex as the originals do; I will LUK if it is possible to modify them, or you can of course make your own from the sketches I sent you.


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## BROCKWOOD

Yes I do have a copy of  B&S "Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines".  I am slowly soaking it up.  Your job sounds much more interesting than mine.  But, at home I get to see what I can come up with while restoring some neat old equipment!  I didn't get the letter yet (just the package), so I'm sure to elaborate more when it comes.


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## BROCKWOOD

I now know that I need a set of 14P gear cutters for either a 1" or 1.250" arbor to cut my gears!


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## benmychree

I may have at least some of the 14P cutters extra, although likely cutters that small would have 7/8" arbor hole; I'll have a look.  Wouldn't you like to have every accessory for your mill seen in the B&S book?
Besides the dividing head, I have the slotting head and most of the rack milling attachment and the short lead attachment.


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## BROCKWOOD

I better pull in my reins just a tad.  Just adding a NMTB50 7/8" arbor to this is............
I haven't even finished my drawbar or run power to my mill.  Seems senseless to be worried about an indexing  head while in process of sorting out the mill.  Often a smaller project such as the B&S 2 will fill the time while ramping up to the bigger projects.  I am such a newb though. At present I am not trying to be focused on any 1 project or goal.  What is currently at hand?  I have to get an Aloris type of quick change.  Then I can get the center bore completed on my drawbar nut.  It's an old axiom:  put it in service & you will never have time to get it set up the way you envisioned.  Drawbar, Dividing Head, Tail Stock, Sump Pump (& attachments), The overhead stop/start arm.  Lots to do.  I refuse to be overwhelmed.  In the pic are the 2 parts of my drawbar.  The bushing part fits beautifully.  On the B&S2 The (706) Spindle Stop needs better than what I tried, so I wrestled up an old brass bolt to make my 'bullet' from.


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## BROCKWOOD

I forgot to add:  Of course having all the attachments would be Glorious!


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## benmychree

Yes. it would; anything worth doing is worth doing to excess!  Seriously, 'tho, I doubt it is possible to accomplish; so many accessories, so little time!


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## benmychree

Since this forum features a specific dividing head, the Brown & Sharpe Universal, I thought the following pictures of a graduating job using the dividing head to space the graduations being cut into a brass blacksmith's hook rule that I just made for a local artist blacksmith, Lowell Chaput, of Rohnert Park Ca.  As can be seen in the pictures, the dividing head spindle is geared to the table screw and the worm shaft is rotated 10 turns to equal graduations of 1/16" and each graduation is cut in turn using a sharply pointed tool held in the fly cutter arbor, the spindle being prevented from any turning by the flat bar clamped against the overarm support; the length of the graduations is determined by four lines scribed on the brass blank and a rule is laid behind the one being cut to remind me which length lines to scribe in turn, the saddle hand feed is used to do the scribing; using this setup, it took approximately five minutes to graduate each inch of the rule,  After graduation is complete, the burrs are removed with abrasive cloth, the inch number markings and the owner's name are engraved with my Gorton 3-U engraver; I used a "Roman" font for the numbers, and the "Spencer" font for the owner's name


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## benmychree

Incidentally, the extra long crank on the dividing head was a B&S item, but I have never seen it in a catalog, I just happened on a picture in a B&S book on screw machines, where it was used to provide more leverage when rotary milling of cams for the screw machines;  I had a number of them laser cut with a view to sell them on E Bay, but never got around to it; If anyone wants one, I will sell them for $15 each plus postage.  Contact me at york@napanet.net   The large hole is so that the device may be slipped over the index plunger knob, and the long slot is so that the index crank may be used in any hole circle with the device in place.


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## BROCKWOOD

I was hoping to see your ruler setup! I'm happy with my laser cut handle.


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## benmychree

BROCKWOOD said:


> I was hoping to see your ruler setup! I'm happy with my laser cut handle.


I was pretty proud of the fact that I was able to take and post the pictures without my wife's help!  Maybe I just got lucky!  Practically any odd graduation can be made down to infinitely tiny ones using that setup and the tables in "Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines" by B&S.   Incidentally, B&S made an automatic graduating machine I think in the late 1850s, which was given by them to the Smithsonian in the mid 1960s, noting it had been in use in their plant for over one hundred years; what that statement did not say was that there were still a bunch of them STILL running in their plant much later.  These machines did not cut actual graduations (I think), but just scribed through an acid resist, and the actual graduations were, at least for the most part were acid etched as they are for machinists and patternmaker's rules.


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## BROCKWOOD

Finally got the Spindle Stop Pin Pinion (706) hot enough to allow the set screw for the handle to come on out (no part numbers for these 2 parts).  The only logical reason for the handle to be mounted from the wrong side is that the rack & pinion (707 & 706) were not meshing smoothly.  Even with a stiffer spring set on the 2 parts, this feature was not working as it should. By turning the pinion (706) 180 degrees out of phase, it must have been hoped that the lever action would be smooth again. With careful deburring & polishing that lever  action is just about as it should be:  decisive & positive.  Once these parts are smooth & functioning properly, should I just go ahead & completely blue them for rust prevention & hardness?


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## benmychree

I think the original blackish finish of B&S parts was niter bluing; a 50/50 mixture of sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate was heated (and melted to a clear liquid) to 600 deg. F. for only perhaps 5 minutes; color desired can range from blue to black depending on time in the bath; this the U.S. Armory method of bluing.  Just heating to blue does not provide nearly the same protection from rusting.
My B&S dividing head does not seem to have a spring behind the plunger, but I have not looked to see if it had one or if it is there and broken; keeping the plunger engaged on the rapid indexing plate under cutting conditions does not seem to be a problem, as the slight taper of the plunger and hole in the plate hold quite tightly when engaged; also I do not note any evidence of the detent bullet  in the "feel" of the plunger when engaging or dis engaging the plunger, perhaps I need to take it apart and have a look?
Somewhere on Hobby Machinist, I posted the entire American Machinist technical article on U.S. Armory method of bluing ( with express permission of  American Machinist)  It bears reading if you can find it.  I had a B&S #2 universal mill of about 1906 vintage; I used it in my machine shop for about 30 years, then restored it to take with me in retirement; well, along came a 1942 model with more features and the universal milling attachment ( all angles), so I sold my restored machine, but as part of the restoration, I blackened all the bare steel parts for rust protection as they were originally and it really does a good job at preventing rust.  It works on cast iron too, but it takes much longer and does not give the intense black finish as it does with steel.  Chemical "gun blue" is nearly worthless for rust protection and the selenium based "cold black" solutions are also quite poor.  The only drawback to the Armory method and the "torch blue" methods is that both draw the temper of hardened articles to the "spring temper" level, that is, I think, in the high 30s Rockwell C range of hardness.


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## BROCKWOOD

The Direct Indexing Pin is clocked just right for the latch 'bullet' to catch.  The added springs do aid in the turning.  It feels much better now, so the handle received a good polishing.




Our mystery bolt in the Worm Shaft Adjusting Screw (703) turned out to be another Zert type grease fitting with the nipple milled off. Perhaps this was a good idea on paper that went south?


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## BROCKWOOD

Keith Rucker shows disassembly / function & adjustment of various parts / reassembly of an early clone of the B&S 2 in the link below.  In it he mentions that his direct indexing pin lever has 2 detents - engaged & disengaged.  Of course he doesn't take that apart.  This was my reason for starting this thread:  addressing the parts that get taken for granted.  In part 1 the Simple Indexing Lock Pin was reviewed & repaired.  Now, in part 2 the direct indexing pin assembly is disassembled, examined & corrections implemented successfully. I have my disengage detent working pretty good as it holds the direct indexing pin back against the pressure of the engage spring that is directly behind the direct indexing pin.  This part 3 will be about the Worm Shaft Adjusting Screw assembly - nobody ever takes it apart.  Pic 1 above shows a dark column of grease ejected from the Zert grease passage.  It also shows that the handles for the main body lock & the simple indexing lock are swapped.  Waiting on an Allen Wrench that fits the replacement lock screw to correct that.

Keith's link:


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## BROCKWOOD

Wondering what to do about this.  Thinking about welding up the slot, reslotting & trying out the zert.  What would you do?


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## 4GSR

BROCKWOOD said:


> Wondering what to do about this.  Thinking about welding up the slot, reslotting & trying out the zert.  What would you do?
> View attachment 235937
> View attachment 235938
> View attachment 235936


Leave it alone!


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## BROCKWOOD

So, I listened.  Put all that part back together & tuned it all in just fine.  This is the more modern version with the roller / thrust bearings.  Though I tried, I have No clue of how to break it down as far as you see in videos of the earlier design.  I think the key to getting it all completely broken down lies in the removal of the Spindle Clamp Screw Plug (2060).  Here it is now:



It is very easy to take offense when told to just leave it alone.  I work with electrical equipment measuring up to 500KV to supply power to a thriving community.  Some have lost limb & some have lost life (thankfully, not on my watch).  Whether electrical or mechanical: these forces we are dealing with do not take prisoners. The fact that results are permanent has to be present in every operation. In my business we each reserve the right to stop any & all work until any doubt concerning the results is resolved. Here:  I got stopped.  Appreciated!  I hope to learn why.

 Not happy with the Worm Shaft Adjusting Screw (703), but will worry with making another later.  The front gear guard is just about polished & all that is left is cleaning up the Spiral Gear Guard (2052).


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## brino

There are many ways to say it:

Don't let perfection stand in the way of good enough.

Confucius: Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without. 
Shakespeare: striving to better, oft we mar what's well
Shakespeare: Were it not sinful then, striving to mend, To mar the subject that before was well?

Satisficing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing

I believe that knowing when to stop is a tough lesson. 
Like when to quit spray painting before you get a drip/run, even though you want to finish it today. (my most recent personal example...from today!)

-brino


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## 4GSR

BROCKWOOD said:


> So, I listened.  Put all that part back together & tuned it all in just fine.  This is the more modern version with the roller / thrust bearings.  Though I tried, I have No clue of how to break it down as far as you see in videos of the earlier design.  I think the key to getting it all completely broken down lies in the removal of the Spindle Clamp Screw Plug (2060).  Here it is now:
> View attachment 236251
> 
> 
> It is very easy to take offense when told to just leave it alone.  I work with electrical equipment measuring up to 500KV to supply power to a thriving community.  Some have lost limb & some have lost life (thankfully, not on my watch).  Whether electrical or mechanical: these forces we are dealing with do not take prisoners. The fact that results are permanent has to be present in every operation. In my business we each reserve the right to stop any & all work until any doubt concerning the results is resolved. Here:  I got stopped.  Appreciated!  I hope to learn why.
> 
> Not happy with the Worm Shaft Adjusting Screw (703), but will worry with making another later.  The front gear guard is just about polished & all that is left is cleaning up the Spiral Gear Guard (2052).



Yeah, I know, I said to leave it alone.

Will say, you knew what you were doing, and you did a superb job on rebuilding your dividing head!

I eat my words!

Thanks for sharing


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## BROCKWOOD

The 2052 Spiral Gear Guard was originally painted.  Black or gray could have been correct - I don't know.  Those are the only 2 colors I found when cleaning it up.  I went with Winter Gray (which doesn't seem to be correct for anything I have).


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## BROCKWOOD

Kudos to our member John York for his help in getting me parts & information on these wonderful dividing heads. His information is so complete that the rest of the parts could simply be machined as needed! I did find a set of the change gears, though & decided to buy them. This cut down on what all I had to make. The gear set, by design is:  100, 86, 72, 64, 56, 48, 44, 40, 32, 28 & 24 (2 of the 24s) tooth count. The set I received in the original box is not quite complete & the box suffered gears shifting around in shipping, so.... it needs some reassembly. Few know that I, temporarily have back issues & just can't really do what I want. I felt well enough today that sitting down to this jigsaw puzzle of a box seemed doable. I quickly realized that it's construction relied on glue at least in some of it's fitment. Not my longest clamp, but handy: Here is the beginnings of box reassembly using a horizontal band saw vise!


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## Vacuum

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this question. If it is not I will start a new thread.
The question is has anyone adapted or seen a adaptation of the B&S number 2 dividing head to a Bridgeport mill?
I think I know what to do, just haven't pulled the plug to start. To many OPP, (Other Peoples Projects) to do.
Any and all ideas and comments accepted with gratitude.

Brockwood your restore is going well. Having back problems is not fun. I know from experience. Moving your B&S is for someone else do do until you get better.


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## benmychree

Good to see that you have made so much progress; I have seen the same condition with the wooden boxes, I think the problem is that they used hide glue, which is not waterproof; things get damp, then they fall apart with little provocation.
I too suffer with back problems; lately I bent over, messing with the cat, and it was off to the races! Two trips to the chiopracter, and occasional doses of Advil and its ALMOST back to normal, whatever that is!


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## BROCKWOOD

Vacuum, the short answer is YES! Mine is a Van Norman. Only on spiral cuts will it become a challenge. Maybe that isn't an entirely accurate statement, but very few operations need the dividing head fed by the table feed. What are you planning to make?


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## benmychree

I have made several projects with the "spiral index centers", as B&S calls them, spiral gears, fluted cutting tools, dividing metal rules, and a cam.
The latest project was to cut a pair of spiral gears with axes at 90 degrees, with a 2:1 ratio, these were timing gears for a "Frisco Standard" 4 HP marine engine; the interesting part is that both blanks were the same diameter, I had the original gears, which were very badly pitted, I started with the crankshaft gear, which had a rather long spiral, easy to set up as the spiral angle was about 22-1/2 degrees, so swinging the table to that angle was no problem; then came the camshaft gear, where the spiral angle was the complement of that angle, exceeding the limit of table swing, so, I had to use the universal spindle attachment and swing it in a horizontal plane to the necessary spiral angle with the table at zero.
Some may wonder how a pair of gears of 2:! ratio could be the same size OD --- so did I! the lead of the first spiral turned out to be four times that of the second gear, and when cut with the proper cutter for that number of teeth, the tooth space is wider than on a longer spiral or for that matter, a spur gear, so that the two mesh properly when assembled.  For that reason, it is possible to replace spur gears with spiral gears, usually one diametral pitch coarser (I think) than the original pitch, by computing the proper spiral angle so that the gears apparent pitch diameters are the same as the original spur gears.


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## Vacuum

Brockwood, just got back from working out of town. I have nothing in the works yet but would like to have a idea of what I need to gather up to be able to index the Bridgeport table using the dividing head when the need arises. I never know what I will run into when the "you are our last resort" call comes in. What amazes me is how much the B&S dividing heads weigh.


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## BROCKWOOD

Indexing the table with the DH is interesting. Should be straight forward though. I'm still studying spiral calculations.
Yes, these are heavyweights.


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## benmychree

Yes, they are heavy, but I can still (at 73) manage it, but made a lifting rig, will post a pic soon


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## BROCKWOOD

The box is back together. Extra are a correct 48 tooth gear & a 24 tooth mystery gear with a timing mark. I'm planning to at least make the missing 56 tooth gear.  Between pics on the net & whomever assembled this box the last time, gear fitment & the still existing number stamps on the box no longer match. It's usable!


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## benmychree

It appears that you have two idler gears, when only one is required to reverse the spiral as required, but you are missing the compounding stud; it looks similar to the idler, but has a shaft with a free running sleeve that is keyed, and the end is threaded for a nut that retains the two gears that are used on it.  Also there is a shaft that fits in the dividing head in place of the center; in essence it is a center with a shaft attached that runs out the back end of the head and has a mounting for gears, and is used for differential indexing of (prime) numbers of divisions.
On my mill, all the gear set is within a compartment under the gearbox, which also contains the dividing plates.  I am attaching pics of the compound shaft bracket, the shaft/center for differential indexing, the dividing head raising block, and the short lead and feed reducing attachment, and the arbor support braces.  I have  foundry patterns for the raising block, the base of the arbor support and could make drawings for the compounding bracket and the diff. index shaft.  I have no idea what that compounded gear in your picture is, have not seen suchlike in any pics or parts books.  You could use the extra idler bracket to make a compounding bracket, I did that for my mill.


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## Silverbullet

The more you find out about the old B&S mills the better they are. Everyone thinks the old mills couldn't do anything but straight milling operations. Everybody wants Bridgeport ill take an ole B&S. But got to have all the extras. Yupp


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## benmychree

BROCKWOOD said:


> Indexing the table with the DH is interesting. Should be straight forward though. I'm still studying spiral calculations.
> Yes, these are heavyweights.


No calculations necessary, its all posted in Brown & Sharpe's book 'Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines" There are tables of gearing for every possible spiral, with the gears provided; with the short lead attachment, you can mill threads; I think the attachment


Silverbullet said:


> The more you find out about the old B&S mills the better they are. Everyone thinks the old mills couldn't do anything but straight milling operations. Everybody wants Bridgeport ill take an ole B&S. But got to have all the extras. Yupp


I'd have to guess that the cost of "all the accessories" would cost way on the far side of what the machine cost. For mine, I also have the slotting/shaping attachment, both sizes of the toolmaker's universal vise, and the rack cutting vise and part of the rack tooth spacing fixture.


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## 34_40

BROCKWOOD said:


> View attachment 234716
> 
> 
> 
> Today's topic, the beginning of this class, is what to do with incorrect or otherwise no longer work properly parts on an old Brown & Sharpe Dividing Head.  So, this is where we will start.  Questions?



1 Question...  When completed.  Wanna sell it?


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## BROCKWOOD

I've got to go back & absorb [U]benmychree[/U]'s input here - Always on point Sir!

I put together a pic that may be of use to purchasers of the B&S DH gearset in box. It's a simple box that, as has been pointed out, can become a puzzle. There are simple blocks of varying height that raise each gear up to the same uniform height (I'll call them risers). Because only a portion of the risers popped loose, I went with what made sense. The results are completely useful, but I had to understand where I went wrong - the part that may be of use to you all. Forgetting the risers for a bit, the dividing pieces can actually go together without modification in 2 ways. Green in the pic = correct while mine is the example on the right. Really, if I had to do it over it would be better to just wreck all the risers out & put them in last. I assumed that what was still glued together would lead the way. No matter - it works! Happy hunting!


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## C-Bag

Facinating thread and thanks John for the tip on the Brown &Sharpe book. It's great it's available in pdf and I've started through it. I've contemplated an indexer but since I already have a rotary table it's been on the back burner. But this thread has sparked my TAS and as fate would have it then this popped up. Is it basically complete and would you say $250 is a fair price?


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## BROCKWOOD

C-Bag, the 1 you found is missing the simple dividing plate off the front & there should be 2 more indexing plates for the side. Here is a pic of the plate that goes on front. I hesitate to give dimensions for the plate not knowing which version you have there. It doesn't have the extra shaft & gearbox on the side like the no2. I like the price for what it is. If you're not trying to get into all the extras like John has & I'm after then go for it.


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## BROCKWOOD

This is for C-Bag as it refers to the BS no0 DH. I think you may have found a no1. The jest of it is the expense of piecing these together vs buying a complete DH from Grizzly. Also, it is good to note that some of the minor parts from Grizzly will fit the older B&S.


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## C-Bag

Thanks BROCKWOOD, that straightened me right up. After looking at all the stuff you've gone through and seeing that that divider is missing the simplest part, I don't want to get into another hunt for parts. Like a chuck, divider plates, tailstock and who knows what else. eBay is full of the same size divider complete with tailstock and chuck for less than $300. Yeah, it's Chinese and not on par with the real BS, but if I really need to do something it would probably do if it's not to precise. But it also might be a mess  Cursed if you do and cursed if you don't.


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## BROCKWOOD

In order to get a tailstock, though being fairly open minded, I had boiled my search down to 2 candidates. I'll show the best 1st. Price was fare & the gears in box were complete. My gears had not arrived yet.







Unfortunately, that set sold while I was talking to another seller. All I wanted was the tailstock, after all. So I bought this: Got a very nice tail stock & the DH is missing the side transfer case - though the screws are still awaiting it's return. The seller & likely the estate it came from have no clue.  We are dealing with items up to 100 years old. Educating just those with an interest is a large challenge. Trust me on this, I'm the student.




So, now I have the even larger challenge of finding basic parts for strictly the DH itself. I had a look in the Grizzly catalog & found the BS-2 version was no longer offered in 2013 (I had discarded the previous catalogs).  What is today thought of as a complete set, the BS-2 with gears, dogleg & chuck from China will set you back nearly a grand.


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## C-Bag

Good hunting BROCKWOOD. 
Thanks for posting those pics and all the great info and background.
The way my universe works now that at least i have a clue, not right away but somewhere sometime something like this is going to pop up. Usually when least expected and when I have no $$$. But doing this on a shoestring budget makes me be really patient. Luckily it doesn't cost anything to shop.


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## MILO2

Hello all,
New here to the site.  I came across this thread when searching for info on a B&S -2 indexer I am picking up tomorrow.  I have a full set of change gears as well as both gear mounting brackets. I am missing the “ shaft drive”.
John, is it possible to get a copy of this part. I wanted to ask publicly rather than just emailing you directly.  Also would be interested in purchasing one of the special handles if still available.  This looks to be a really cool site and plan to contribute. I am sure I will probably be asking many more questions as I try to get my B&S No 2 A universal fully equipped, including questions about coming up with measurements for the outer support brackets,and bracket holder.  I would like to try to come up with some patterns to send to be casted. I am also happy to offer any help or give any answers to questions concerning the B & S machine I have.
Thanks,
Kirk


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## BROCKWOOD

Welcome Kirk! What parts are you planning to have cast? I may have a tag-a-long to add. Look forward to your pics.
John is the best.


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## MILO2

BROCKWOOD said:


> Welcome Kirk! What parts are you planning to have cast? I may have a tag-a-long to add. Look forward to your pics.
> John is the best.


Hello,
I would like to get two of the outboard arbor support arms made as well as the brace that holds them.  I have sent various other parts to Cattail foundry to be casted and have been happy so far with them.  I’ll try to get some pics of my machine and accessories soon.  I have a new shop going up and my B&S gear is spread far and wide.

Kirk


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## MILO2

A few pics of the B&S -2 I just picked up.  Came with a dead center but it was a Morse #4...I believe it uses a BS 10 taper??  I was hoping the spindle was threaded as a 2 1/4” 8 TPI as found in some of the B&S literature because I have a few chucks  for my Sheldon lathe that use this thread.  But upon further inspection it appears to be the odd duck 2 1/4” 4 1/2 TPI. Have to run for now as I have some wood burning stove repairs to attend to.

MILO


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## benmychree

Yes, the spindle taper would be B&S10, and 2 1/4" - 4 1/2 TPI is a standard USS (coarse) thread.


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## BROCKWOOD

Looks like you have the compound gear bracket Kirk! Seeing as we both need the Differential Indexing Center (as well as the regular dead center), that is the part we will detail next. I've all ready chucked up a bar in the lathe & begun roughing it to size + the schematic is progressing nicely!


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## MILO2

Looking foreword to the lathe work and schematic. I have a lead on BS10 dead center but have been keeping my eye out for a suitable tail stock.  At some point I’ll be doing a complete tear down.  All the movements work as they should but are stiff..probably because of old grease.  The indexer shows nearly no signs of damage or abuse as all the set screw heads, adjustment knobs, etc are free from dings or marks. 

MILO


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## BROCKWOOD

About a year ago John York sent me drawings of the parts needed to make the B&S no2 Dividing Head complete. With his permission I am taking his info & putting into a digital format for all to reference. Here is the 1st installment.




As a draftsman, I had all the numbers in decimal format, but John reminded me that much of this is simply mark it with a ruler & go. What matters here is that the taper fits your dividing head. The dog drive should be snug & the collar & nut allow the back gears to line up for differential indexing. Next, we will do the dog drive, collar & nut.


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## MILO2

Awesome.  I found some drawings of the above parts on another site but wasn’t able to get clear enough images to make out all the dimensions. 
I have been looking through the gears I have and I am in possession of all except the 2nd 24tooth, (the regular one as opposed to the “special” one that fits the compound bracket).  Also have a few doubles of the other gears. From what I can see the gears have 14DP with 14.5 pressure angle.  Don’t seem to be any off the shelf 14 DP gears but the the correct cutters are available.

MILO


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## BROCKWOOD

I have an extra 48 but need a 56. You are correct on the pitch & angle. Just got a set of the gear cutters from China, but have to modify an arbor before I can try them out. Gonna finish up on the center first.


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## BROCKWOOD

The Drive Dog Plate.

This fits on either the plain center or differential indexing center. If making either part, finish it out to a snug fit that does not rock to the side. Again all info & pics supplied by John York!


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## MILO2

Nice information.  Is there anyway to blow up the drawing to be able to see the dimensions better? I also have an extra 48 t gear.  I checked but only one 56...if I had an extra I could have saved you some work. Any ideas of what size gears are used on the short feed attachment?

Thanks,
MILO


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## BROCKWOOD

Maybe thumbnails will do better. If not, PM me.

MILO asked, "What size gears are used on the short feed attachment?"  

As you said, the mount diameter is different for the 1 - 24 tooth idler gear. All others use the same inside (mount) diameter. 3rd pic is of the 10 gears available to effect whatever ratio / division / advancement that may be desired.  This 4th pic might answer your question.


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## MILO2

BROCKWOOD said:


> Hoping to keep progress going on this restoration. I ordered up a set of mini end mills to put the slot size right for the pin in pic 1.  Also, in the same pic is 1 of 2 screws needed for the slide adjuster.  I have to make another since there should be 2.  In the next pic, there is what appears to be a bit of mangled up allen wrench for a pin.  Does anyone have a clear pic of what this should look like?
> 
> View attachment 234953
> 
> View attachment 234954



Started to tear down my indexer today.  Got to the above stage. Found that my pin and grub screw are two separate parts as opposed to the one-piece one shown above...thought maybe mine was broke in two but upon inspection they appear to be OEM.  The part that *was *broken was the pin that actually engages the back of the index plate.  As I stated earlier everything on mine was very stiff with fresh grease oozing from everywhere when I assumed ownership.  I believe the PO forced the indexer to turn without disengaging the above stop during his attempt to free everything up.  My suspicions were confirmed when I inspected the attached index plate with a paper clip and found the remainder of the small pin engaged in one of the outer holes. I am not sure how I am going to approach fixing this.  I assume the pin was press fitted into the “ plunger” and am not sure if it was hardened or not. 

MILO


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## BROCKWOOD

A piece of drill rod will do. You'll know pretty quick how hard the broken piece is when you try to mill it out. Keep us updated MILO!

I've been whittling out a center for indexing as per the above drawing. What with 12hr days on the job it is progressing slowly.


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## BROCKWOOD

Had a pretty good start on making differential indexing & plain centers all out of 1 bar. I've managed to burn up my lathe motor though. Short setback - I hope.




The collar & nut that are used on the back are also measures & drawings provided by Mr John York!


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## MILO2

BROCKWOOD said:


> Had a pretty good start on making differential indexing & plain centers all out of 1 bar. I've managed to burn up my lathe motor though. Short setback - I hope.
> 
> View attachment 282879
> 
> 
> The collar & nut that are used on the back are also measures & drawings provided by Mr John York!
> 
> View attachment 282880



How are you putting in the taper? Offset of the tail stock or does your lathe have a taper attachment.
Looks good.

MILO


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## BROCKWOOD

MILO my plan with only 3" of compound slide is to do the taper in 2 parts. With such a slight angle, the offset tailstock is a viable option - just better suited to using a lathe dog that I don't have.


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## MILO2

Checking to see if you made any more progress on the index center.  I haven’t done much lately on my indexer as other more pressing projects have come up.  I just missed acquiring the #5 involuted gear cutter  I need to produce the one 24 tooth gear that I am missing.  Someone outbid me.  None of the other sized cutters seemed to be of interest as they had no bids...go figure.

MILO


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## benmychree

Likely, I may have the spare cutter that you need.  I have most of two sets of cutters from 40 DP to 3 DP, they came off Navy repair ships that the shop where I worked scrapped out after WW-2.


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## BROCKWOOD

Hey MILO John is great to do business with! Thanks for asking about my progress. I too have had a more pressing project come along. The bar I began making the index center out of is still chucked up in my lathe - but the lathe is awaiting parts to get it back up & running. Hope to get back on it in a week.


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## MILO2

Thanks Guys.  Believe it or not after I posted on here I checked out the auction site and was able to pick up a high quality NOS North American made cutter (#5 14 DP) .  I didn’t get if for the 5 or $10 I was hoping for but it still was a good deal as compared to a new equivalent.  I know there are new imports but from what I have read quality can be all over the board and I have been down that road before. 
 After I get done with a couple of Craftsman/Delta circa 1930s table saws I hope to tackle the indexer but if Spring gets here first it may get put on the back burner once again.

MILO


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## BROCKWOOD

So, this popped up today in a search:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/123752637591    Box is correct, gears are all there, as well as the indexing plates & idler gear on arm. 

I'll not forget to come along & continue making parts for mine!


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## BROCKWOOD

When we last left off this series, it was the tapered center shaft that we were focusing on. Given a Tom Lipton idea as presented by Stefan Gotteswinter, my path forward is made easy - once another tool to mount the necessary tool holder is made. So, seeing there were not any other projects needing my attention, I set my sights on the next part needed.

B&S no2 Old Style (L) New Style (R). The bolts for the rear are not the same. Or perhaps at some point of overlap in developmental changes they were. Early units used 5/8 - 12 bolts & used a 1" wrench. Later units, as per John York's notes & sketches used 5/8 - 11 bolts with a 15/16 head. Hope to have the drawing finalized in a few days!


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## benmychree

Brown & Sharpe had their own thread standards; older machines had many threads different than today's standards, one of the common ones was 1/2-14 tpi.  No criticism, they made standards before there were standards.  One strange thing was they commonly built machines with 55 degree dovetails, a good example being my #2 universal mill built in 1943 with lever gear changes and no rapids,, A friend has an updated model built in the same year with crank gear shifting and rapid travel, and it has 60 degree dovetails


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## BROCKWOOD

Bolt drawing.


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