# I finally made a decision



## slingshot (Feb 28, 2013)

Hey everyone,

Well after months of reading forums asking Questions i finally made a decision.I will have to say it was tough for me,it boiled down to two lathes the Grizzly G3004G or the Pm12x36.The grizzly claimed to have better bearings and a beefier chuck d1-5. I finally got in touch with matt :holdphone::winner:the PM 12x36.I think I will be satisfied.I am hoping that it can hold some tight tolerances. :thinking: 

I was wondering if someone could tell me what is the biggest cutters that the qctp will handle 1/4 3/8 1/2? 
thanks


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## GaryK (Feb 28, 2013)

slingshot said:


> I finally got in touch with matt :holdphone::winner:the PM 12x36.I think I will be satisfied.I am hoping that it can hold some tight tolerances. :thinking:
> 
> I was wondering if someone could tell me what is the biggest cutters that the qctp will handle 1/4 3/8 1/2?
> thanks



The PM1236 comes with a BXA QCTP (with the preferred package you get 5 holders) which will hold a 5/8" bit.

I have had my PM1236 since just after Christmas and I've been very happy with it.

Gary


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## Ray C (Feb 28, 2013)

The machine is fine and holds great tolerances.  As with ALL lathes, it must be properly "leveled" (see note below) and setup.  First, get all the cosmoline/grease off it with WD-40 or mineral spirits etc.  Lift it properly (I can show you pictures) and put it on the bench.  The stock bench is fine and I can show you ways to "level" it properly.  Once you do all that, there's other info here about how to read/interpret the threading charts -so become familiar with that before you get it.

Once all that's done, you go into the "fine-tuning" phase of cutting test shafts etc.  I've cut test shafts (using a slightly modified method that Tubal Cain shows with two large disks on a shaft) and over a distance of 24", it kept things at a half thou.   With the tailstock, it was holding a couple tenths...  That's very good and all you can hope for in a lathe.

"leveling"...  There are many threads here about how to do it and it's not necessarily making it level to the horizon.  Yes, you get the bench pretty level to start with and either a half decent carpenter or machinist level is all that's needed.  After that, you do a series of test cuts using the two-collar method.  In between making cuts, you make slight adjustments to either the legs or put shims under the footings -repeat process until the desired accuracy is obtained.  You don't need a level at all for doing this.  -Took me the better part of a couple weeks to figure this out and if you stick with this plan, you'll get it done in a day or so.

There's a bunch of us here with this lathe and if you have any troubles, you know how to reach us.

As for the difference between D1-4 & 5 and bearings...  Both machines claim to use NSK or STP bearings.  D1-5 requires a larger bearing and has 6 locking lugs (D1-4 has 3) because it can accommodate bigger chucks.  The thru-hole is the same on both machines so that's your limiting factor.   D1-5 backplates are heavier and quite frankly, locking 6 lugs is a pain in the butt.  And when you heave the 80lb, 8" chuck and need to manually spin it into 6 locations to lock it up... it will get old fast.  Many people remove 3 of the lugs for this reason.  If you purchase more chucks, D1-5 backplates are a bit more expensive...  To me, it's overkill but that's just my opinion.  It's your call.  If you think you'll ever get a 16" lathe where D1-5 probably makes more sense then, that would be a reason to start-out with D1-5.

Tool posts...  It will come with a BXA which can hold up to 5/8.  Truth be know, I prefer the AXA on that machine and use mainly 3/8 and much fewer 1/2" shanks.   The only time I use 1/2" is when I need to extend the bit a little.  The cuts I take with 1/2 are no deeper than the ones with 1/2".  For mild steel, both rip off 0.060 (.120 dia) effortlessly.  5/8 will do little more because the compound is the limiting factor and you might find that such large tooling actually gets in the way of intricate tight places -and that is where the 3/8" sets shine brightly.  -Honest engine -no BS here.  Also, 3/8 inserts are a good bit cheaper than 1/2 or 5/8 -and when you're paying only $2/insert rather that 5 or 8... it makes a difference.

Ray

EDIT:  Actually, the methods of leveling that finally worked was learned  here by the contributions of many.  I can show you specific methods  that will be helpful with that 1236 and lathes like it.


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## darkzero (Feb 28, 2013)

I'm glad you decided to give Matt a try. Matt has always been so helpful & nice from the very first time I talked to him & even till now. He may be hard to catch sometimes but he is only one man. Sure you might always get to talk to someone at Grizzly but they may not always be as knowledgeable of helpful as Matt may be & not often the same person twice. I like the one on one experience with Matt & is why I keep going back to him.

I'm also a very happy owner of a PM1236 & have no major issues with mine. As the others have mentioned, it comes with a BXA which normally holds up to 5/8" tools. The BXA size was one of the important factors to me when buying this lathe. There is such a wider range of available tools for BXA over AXA. I hated that certain tools that I wanted or needed were not available in the AXA (1/2") size when I had one. But I use 95% indexable. And in 3/4" shank there's even more different tools that are available. Some mill down the shanks to 5/8" so they can run those tools. I'm not a big fan of milling down shanks (after all there's a reason why the manufacturer didn't make the tool in a smaller shank right?) although I do have a couple here & there but that's because they were cheap on ebay.

I have a Dorian SQCTP on mine, I love it so much I won't use anything else now. Aloris & Dorian make oversized holders that will hold 3/4" shanks but that doesn't always mean you'll be able to use them due to cutter height. Dorian actually makes oversized holders that will fit 1" shanks but again, that doesn't mean you will always be able to use 1" shank tools. I personally don't see a need to run any tooling larger than 5/8" in this size lathe.

Although I have a nice USA made TP, my holders are Chinese & I only have a handful of Dorian holders. Here's my oversized Dorian holder that accepts 1" shanks. That's a 3/4" shank in it.









The bigger size is also more rigid & you can still use 3/8" & 1/2" shanks with the BXA too. I can bury half the insert when cutting aluminum, it's actually quite scary for me. I'm not used to doing that & I don't normally, was just testing the lathe's limits. Don't think I have found the lathes limits yet, I'm too scared. Nothing wrong with the BXA set that comes with the lathe. I would say if you are in the premature stage of buying tools stick with the BXA. And again if you already have a bunch of smaller tooling, no need to replace them, just use them.

Speaking of rigidity in the TP (aside from the machine), fully form knurling SS & Ti can produce forces that are far to great for the TP to handle no matter how tight I crank down on the nut. Sometimes I have to pin the TP in place when I fully form Ti. A very nice feature with the Dorian. 






Knurled Ti 6Al4V

















The larger TP will also allow you to use bigger tooling when needed like this 1" boring bar. And those Dorian holders are not even the largest ones available.







I never thought I would ever be doing anything that I am doing now or would need any of the larger tooling that I have but it's nice to have the ability to do so when the situation arises. Without that heavy duty scissor knurl that I posted above, I doubt I would be able to get the results that I have. 

Much of the larger tooling tooling can be found for much better deals than the smaller stuff on ebay. There's only a few tools that I have where I actually pay full price ($10+) for each insert. That K1-44 Eagle Rock scissor knurl costs $380 new & I scored it barely used for $80. That 1" Kennametal costs $450 new & I scored it new for just over $100. Who knows how expensive that 5/8" solid carbide boring is new but I scored it for $75. I feel like I'm robbing the sellers when I find deals like that but there's always deals like that on ebay. 

If you choose to go indexable, you can do a search on ebay like "50, 100, 200 inserts". Find an insert geometry that you like, then you might score big like $1.50 per insert (as opposed to $15 per insert). Then search for the appropiate holder which you might find a 1" or 3/4" shank for $25, mill it down to fit the 5/8" holder & you set on that for the next 10 years or so.


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## slingshot (Mar 1, 2013)

Thanks darkzero for that detailed info and everyone else who has replied.It makes me feel better about my purchase knowing that others have had a good experience with there's.Darkzero that is also one of the reasons that i went with pm is the bxa qctp holder.

One of the other things that I was comparing with the grizzy vs pm was the amount of oil,grizzly take 4 quarts and pm takes 3 gallons which adds up over time.plus the Grizzly does 112 tpi granted I probably would never thread anything that fine but that was telling that there must be more gear configuration speeds are something with the grizzly. But i do think that I will be satisfied with the pm.

Buy the way it looks like I am going to have plenty of time to prepare my shop,it looks like the first of April before the shipment comes in.I will also have the time to shop for tools and what not.Oh another thing I was wondering if universal hydraulic fluid would be suitable? Thanks.

IF YOU MEET ME AND FORGET ME YOU HAVE LOST NOTHING. BUT IF YOU MEET JESUS AND FORGET HIM YOU HAVE LOST IT ALL. :thinking:


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## Ray C (Mar 1, 2013)

I don't think you'll be disappointed.  I've never missed not having 112 TPI -and have no idea what a pitch that fine is used for but guess screws for holding fine timepieces and clocks etc.  In such a case, you would not be using this class of lathe and would probably be using a much smaller, specialized machine.

Matt recommends either ISO/AW 68 or 100 hydraulic oil depending on temperature conditions.  I noticed that 68 foams a little in my PM45 mill -but nothing to be concerned about.  It settles-out in a few minutes.  If you ever watch how the oil splashes around when the gears are spinning, you'll see it's not an issue.  Most of the gears are totally or partially submerged and the 3 others are on a selector shaft and are getting splashed like crazy.   With all my machines, I have two 5 gallon pails of both 68 and 100 -honestly, I don't remember what's in the machines at the moment and I'm planning to go all ISO 100 to simplify life -it really won't make a difference unless temps are consistently below 40F.  I now keep my shop heated all winter.  55 at night and 65 while occupied.  ISO 100 is fine at those temps and will do well in the summer when the shop is 90+.
Ray




slingshot said:


> Thanks darkzero for that detailed info and everyone else who has replied.It makes me feel better about my purchase knowing that others have had a good experience with there's.Darkzero that is also one of the reasons that i went with pm is the bxa qctp holder.
> 
> One of the other things that I was comparing with the grizzy vs pm was the amount of oil,grizzly take 4 quarts and pm takes 3 gallons which adds up over time.plus the Grizzly does 112 tpi granted I probably would never thread anything that fine but that was telling that there must be more gear configuration speeds are something with the grizzly. But i do think that I will be satisfied with the pm.
> 
> ...


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## GaryK (Mar 1, 2013)

So which version did you end up getting? Does yours have the foot brake? DRO?


If you want to see what all I have gone through with mine since I got it click HERE.

I just changed oil in mine last week and it took closer to 2 gallons rather than 3. Less than 1 1/2 for the headstock and and the rest in the gearbox and carriage.

April is not that bad of a wait at all. It does give you a chance to get tooled up for it's arrival. If you have any questions on the size of anything on the lathe
let me know and I'll go measure it for you.

If you have a mill already you might want to tell Matt to ship the QCTP at the same time as the lathe. He has to machine the t-nut for the QCTP and with the number
of lathes he gets in at a time you might want to machine it yourself to speed things up.

Gary


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## slingshot (Mar 1, 2013)

Gary I got the preferred package which has the brake but I have not ordered the dro.I did ask Matt about the QCTP he said that it would already be on the machine so reading between the lines I'm guessing that there want be any milling,I do not have a milling machine (yet). Gary one thing that I am not sure about yet is the exact amount of space that i need for it,of course the more room the better lol   thanx_


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## GaryK (Mar 1, 2013)

slingshot said:


> Gary I got the preferred package which has the brake but I have not ordered the dro.I did ask Matt about the QCTP he said that it would already be on the machine so reading between the lines I'm guessing that there want be any milling,I do not have a milling machine (yet). Gary one thing that I am not sure about yet is the exact amount of space that i need for it,of course the more room the better lol   thanx_



Good deal on the preferred package. The foot brake alone is worth the price. It can really save your butt and the machine. Especially while you are getting familiar with
the controls. Ask me how I know!

Maybe Matt is having the t-nuts pre-machined now. 

My lathe is 62" long x 51" tall x 27" deep taking the handles into account.

Mine is against a wall so I have a 7" gap. I would recommend an absolute minimum of 12" at both ends. I have about 2 feet that the tailstock and 3-4 at the headstock.
See the pictures in the link in my previous post.


Any other questions just let me know.

Gary


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## slingshot (Mar 3, 2013)

I been thinking about the things I need to get together before the lathe arrives, One of the first things that i want to do is align the tail stock do i need to pull my chuck off and put a collect in the headstock.I'm guessing  That I am going to have to purchase a test bar .I also was wondering Where can you buy tooling made in the usa and what do you recommend for a newbie?I will be turning tool steel and some low carbon steel @first  Thanks J.B


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## Ray C (Mar 3, 2013)

J.B...

Do yourself a big favor and start-out with aluminum and low carbon steel (preferably in that order).  Tool $teel i$ expen$ive and not easy to work with for a starter.  Good old AL 6061 is great to work with.  Steel, 1018/20 is nice and any of the 11xx or 11Lxx make for a a beautiful cut.

You won't need a collet or even a chuck to align your TS.  First though, you need to setup the bench and "level" the lathe.  If you hang on until tonight, I'll show the steps of how I leveled/aligned my lathe.  Once that is done, you can go on to align the TS and it's all but trivial.  You spin between centers using a lathe dog.  Take any old shaft, put two aluminum donuts on each end (it will look like a dumbell weight) and take cuts.  Measure the diameters and make adjustments in the TS.  When the diameters are the same you can stop making adjustments.  -Simple as that.

To start-out, you need a dial indicator (and a test-dial indicator would be an added bonus) and a measuring micrometer or caliper.


Ray





slingshot said:


> I been thinking about the things I need to get together before the lathe arrives, One of the first things that i want to do is align the tail stock do i need to pull my chuck off and put a collect in the headstock.I'm guessing  That I am going to have to purchase a test bar .I also was wondering Where can you buy tooling made in the usa and what do you recommend for a newbie?I will be turning tool steel and some low carbon steel @first  Thanks J.B


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## slingshot (Mar 3, 2013)

Ray C said:


> J.B...
> 
> Do yourself a big favor and start-out with aluminum and low carbon steel (preferably in that order).  Tool $teel i$ expen$ive and not easy to work with for a starter.  Good old AL 6061 is great to work with.  Steel, 1018/20 is nice and any of the 11xx or 11Lxx make for a a beautiful cut.
> 
> ...




Thanks ray I jumped ahead of myself  I realized that I needed to wire it up oil it up and level it up.I actually was speaking after this was done. But yes I would like to see your procedure for leveling up. 


Well I guess there is more than one way to align the tail stock I just was not sure which was the best way. I have seen the test bar alinement before.So once you get the tail stock zeroed in tolerances should be good unless you have a sorry chuck? thanks


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