# PM DRO Manual???



## Jake P (Dec 25, 2021)

Does anyone have a source for a manual that details the tool library functions of this DRO?:


----------



## KevinM (Dec 26, 2021)

Not the same DRO but this may be helpful.  









						Get More From Your DRO - CNC Like Repeatability on Your Manual Lathe
					

Whether you have a new DRO or are thinking about getting one, I hope this video offers some insight into the true power they offer on a manual lathe.  I see a lot of videos about installing a DRO on your metal lathe, but I could not find many that really show you how to Maximize your DRO. What...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


----------



## Jake P (Dec 26, 2021)

Not the same DRO but this may be helpful. 


KevinM said:


> Get More From Your DRO - CNC Like Repeatability on Your Manual Lathe
> 
> 
> Whether you have a new DRO or are thinking about getting one, I hope this video offers some insight into the true power they offer on a manual lathe.  I see a lot of videos about installing a DRO on your metal lathe, but I could not find many that really show you how to Maximize your DRO. What...
> ...


Thanks, I saw that thumbnail but didn't check it out as it's a different model.  That's the DRO I had on order for my 1340GT but my used 1440GT came with the one above.

I'll see if there's any similarity, but I suspect the entry methods will be different.  It's interesting that the manual online at PM says nothing about tool offsets and the tool library.  I believe it will do it.


----------



## darkzero (Dec 26, 2021)

I have a M-DRO branded unit they used to offer that looks similar to that. Mine is basically a rebranded Meister BC-10L (L for lathe specific, no mill functions). Mine displays BC-10L when it boots up.

I have the manual for mine but I don't have a soft copy of it. I do have a PDF for the Meister Top10 though which is essentially the same, just has a different housing material/color & is for mill/universal. Should have the info you need though.


----------



## Chewy (Dec 26, 2021)

Do you have this one?


----------



## Chewy (Dec 26, 2021)

The closest thing to an off set is overriding the displayed value on last page.  It is a pretty simple DRO and may not have what you want.


----------



## Jake P (Dec 26, 2021)

darkzero said:


> I have a M-DRO branded unit they used to offer that looks similar to that. Mine is basically a rebranded Meister BC-10L (L for lathe specific, no mill functions). Mine displays BC-10L when it boots up.
> 
> I have the manual for mine but I don't have a soft copy of it. I do have a PDF for the Meister Top10 though which is essentially the same, just has a different housing material/color & is for mill/universal. Should have the info you need though.
> 
> View attachment 389776


Yes, that looks almost identical other than the addition of the key between the Offset and R/D keys on mine. 

When mine boots up it shows "Top10-2L", so they are likely both Meister brand.

Thanks for the link, however the manual that you linked to answers some questions but still falls short of what I'm looking for.  I suspect that somewhere there is a manual specifically for model, it's just finding it.


----------



## Jake P (Dec 26, 2021)

Chewy said:


> Do you have this one?


Yes, got that one from the PM site.  It ignores (actually grays out the buttons in the manual) certain functions.  It seems that all functions are active in my model, it's just figuring out how to make them work.


----------



## Jake P (Dec 26, 2021)

Thanks for the replies so far.  However there is still no single source that details this specific model and its unique interface.  A little here and a little there might get it all pieced together.

It's interesting to note, at least from what I can see, there is no single source for how to create a tool library and the manner in which to use it.  Again, pieces here and pieces there.  I suspect the reason is that few actually have gone through the trouble to set it all up, and those who do are not the "youtube creator" types.  Just a guess.............


----------



## BladesIIB (Dec 26, 2021)

Looking at the attached PDF file from darkzero it appears that page 14 and 15 talk through setting tool offsets.  The example is about work offsets and given coordinates but they are using the tool numbers.  Looks like it holds 99 different coordinates so that should mean  you should be able to plug in 99 different tools.  Rather than punch in coordinates like the example, you should be able to insert your next tool, change the number and then set it to the same point as the last tool zero both axis and it will plug in the offset from the last tool.  I would try that?  Easy check is set up first tool as 1.  Insert another tool set to 2 and zero.  Then go back to tool 1 and see if it lines up in the right spot.


----------



## darkzero (Dec 26, 2021)

Jake P said:


> Yes, that looks almost identical other than the addition of the key between the Offset and R/D keys on mine.
> 
> When mine boots up it shows "Top10-2L", so they are likely both Meister brand.
> 
> Thanks for the link, however the manual that you linked to answers some questions but still falls short of what I'm looking for.  I suspect that somewhere there is a manual specifically for model, it's just finding it.


The tool offsets are programmed just like the SDM function found on most DROs. In the manual I uploaded look for the SDM instructions. For lathe specific DRO displays it's not usually specifically labelled as SDM but as Tool Offsets instead.

The reason I choose the DRO display I got is because it was lathe specific & the SDM/Tool Offsets is more easily accessible than other universal/mill DRO displays.

That additional button on yours looks like it's axis summing but that's usually found on 3 or more axis DROs. For a lathe, axis summing would commonly be for the carriage & tailstock (or compound slide if the user choose), need a scale mounted on both. I'm curious if that button even does anything on your DRO if it's only a 2 axis.


----------



## Jake P (Dec 27, 2021)

BladesIIB said:


> Looking at the attached PDF file from darkzero it appears that page 14 and 15 talk through setting tool offsets.  The example is about work offsets and given coordinates but they are using the tool numbers.  Looks like it holds 99 different coordinates so that should mean  you should be able to plug in 99 different tools.  Rather than punch in coordinates like the example, you should be able to insert your next tool, change the number and then set it to the same point as the last tool zero both axis and it will plug in the offset from the last tool.  I would try that?  Easy check is set up first tool as 1.  Insert another tool set to 2 and zero.  Then go back to tool 1 and see if it lines up in the right spot.


That manual and the actual readouts on my unit are just a little different and I'm still not able to get it to work.   Talked with Mike at PM this morning and he's looking for detailed instructions for this unit.


----------



## Jake P (Dec 27, 2021)

darkzero said:


> The tool offsets are programmed just like the SDM function found on most DROs. In the manual I uploaded look for the SDM instructions. For lathe specific DRO displays it's not usually specifically labelled as SDM but as Tool Offsets instead.
> 
> The reason I choose the DRO display I got is because it was lathe specific & the SDM/Tool Offsets is more easily accessible than other universal/mill DRO displays.
> 
> That additional button on yours looks like it's axis summing but that's usually found on 3 or more axis DROs. For a lathe, axis summing would commonly be for the carriage & tailstock (or compound slide if the user choose), need a scale mounted on both. I'm curious if that button even does anything on your DRO if it's only a 2 axis.


This unit is just not behaving as the manual you uploaded indicates.  Got hold of PM this morning and they are looking for information.

Yes the axis summing button on this unit appears to be working, but of course there's nothing to sum as there's only two scale inputs on this DRO (X&Z).  When I say it's working, when I push it the status window shows "Z0+/_Z1".


----------



## Jake P (Dec 27, 2021)

What I've found so far is that using the "Tool/Base" input takes the unit into a mode that will allow the selection of one of the 99 tools:
	

		
			
		

		
	






However, there is no way to program any offsets into the individual tool presets from this point.  In other words this button along with the up/down arrows to its right simply select a specific tool number, and that's all.  Of course I can be missing something.



The "Offset" input seems to be the place from which each tools offset from base can be set, but only for the X axis.  For the life of me I cannot find a way to enter an offset for the Z axis!






Another item to note with this unit is that the "Mechanical Zero Point" function is not working either:




This is the function that will give the user a known reference point no matter the previous state of the DRO's absolute zero reference point.  If you shut down the DRO and there is any movement in either axis while it's off, then the Absolute Zero point is lost.  The Mechanical Zero Point function allows you to return to a known point, but it doesn't seem to be working.  When I say it's not working what I mean is that again the DRO shows all the right readouts when making inputs to the buttons as specified in the manual that darkzero uploaded, but it appears that the scales shipped with this unit do not have the "reference marks" required for the DRO to establish a reference point from.  Again, I could be missing something.

At this point I'll just have to wait for Mike at PM to see what he comes up with for a detailed ops manual.  Should that not be forthcoming then I may try to make a video and show exactly what I am stumbling with and perhaps from there someone can point out what I'm missing.


----------



## Jake P (Dec 29, 2021)

So here's where I'm at with this DRO.

PM does not have a manual with more detail than what has already been offered up here in this thread.

As to the three function buttons that I circled in red in the photos in the above post, here's what I know.

The Tool/Base button as I stated only selects a tool number and has no input functions within that portion of the software.

The Offset button is where you can program an offset that corresponds to a given tool number (01-99), however you can only program an offset for the X axis.

And the Mechanical Zero Point function of this DRO is inoperative due to the scales not having the required reference points from which the function derives position information.

So what this model DRO provides is a "tool library" that cannot be used until a reference point is established after each time the DRO is shut off and either axis is moved.  It is also a tool library that can only be programmed in the X axis.

I find it a little misleading (unless the specs have changed from the unit that I got with my lathe) that PM advertises this model as being "Fully loaded with all the features you would expect".  I wonder what they mean in the part that says "Latest SDM manufactured design?





I just hope that no one buys this unit expecting to get a tool library with X and Z axis capabilities.  And to be clear, I got this unit with my second hand lathe, so I'm not claiming to have been misled in any way.  It may also be that since this unit was purchased (2017) and now, that the specs may have been changed.  It would be interesting to hear from others who have this same unit and have purchased them lately, as to what the model number on the back says.  This one says "Top20-2L", so perhaps there are newer versions with greater capability in line with what is currently advertised in the above photo.

I should add that the DRO functions well so far in all that it does do.  As others have noted, the readout is hard to see when light hits it in a certain way, but I have fixed that with a hood made from foam board (easy fix).  At this point I am just going to continue to work with it and determine with time if upgrading is worth the cost to get a fully functional tool library.


----------



## xr650rRider (Dec 29, 2021)

Unless your in a production operation and repetitively making same part, I doubt you'll miss it.  I added several tool holders to library, went to trouble of engraving numbers on holders..........and.............. I never use it.


----------



## davidpbest (Dec 29, 2021)

With a solid tool post, you will miss not having a functioning tool offset library.  At least _I_ would. Sorry to hear about this.


----------



## Coolusername (Jul 22, 2022)

Resurrecting this old thread.  I purchased the PM1440GT lathe brand new with this exact same DRO (plus installation fees) back in October of 2020.  I have been using the lathe, which totally rocks, and DRO for the past two years on very small and intermittent production runs.  I have just now decided to use the DRO in a much more efficient and professional manner to decrease my machining time and increase production.  Basically, its time for me to step up my game a little.  So last night and today I've been trying to get the tools and offsets programmed.  Like yourself (Jake P), I've struggled until finally giving up and calling PM.  I was told today that my DRO probably doesn't support the tool offset functions even though the buttons and readouts are present on the screen.  Needless to say I'm totally ****** about this because even though I hadn't used the functions before I knew I would eventually get around to it.  Well that day has come and now I'm finding out I spent $800 on a DRO that basically doesn't have any more functions than a cheap battery operated iGaging DRO that you can get for around $100.  I've sent a message to PM to see if they have a better display with the tool functions I need and for what price, we'll see if they respond.  Unhappy and mislead.


----------



## Jake P (Jul 22, 2022)

Coolusername said:


> Like yourself (Jake P), I've struggled until finally giving up and calling PM.  I was told today that my DRO probably doesn't support the tool offset functions even though the buttons and readouts are present on the screen.



At least with mine there is limited use of the offset function.  That is to say that the the X axis will store a tool offset memory relative to a value that you determine buy making a test cut (which must be done each time the DRO is powered down).  I can't remember now exactly how that works (maybe I mentioned it here before) as I have not used the function yet.  So in a sense it is usable, but with limited functionality.

A true tool offset function as I remember from my research is a system wherein the scales have reference points that the DRO can read thereby determining each time the unit is powered back on precisely where on the X axis the cross slide is located.  The idea being (again as I understand it) that in a fully functional system once tool offsets are determined and programed that the user need not make a test cut to know the position of the cutting edge to the centerline of the work.  Of course as the tool wears this will change, but for work that is not in excess of your ability to set offsets as well as reasonable tool wear,  this stored offset would be accurate enough to get very close without taking measurements of the workpiece.




Coolusername said:


> I've sent a message to PM to see if they have a better display with the tool functions I need and for what price, we'll see if they respond.  Unhappy and mislead.



Again, as I illustrated in the second paragraph above, you need make sure that whatever is said back to you speaks directly to these functions and not some lose language such as:

"This Precision Matthews DRO is a dedicated Lathe specific digital readout housed in a compact, slim, high performance plastic case.
*Fully loaded with all the features you would expect including. It is the ideal DRO for a cost effective solution without compromising on performance.*" (Emphasis mine)

I'm afraid that in todays world of what is considered acceptable marketing standards one must be very critical of everything and never assume what something means without getting specific/precise confirmation.  And I'm not singling out PM here as they are simply doing what has become "acceptable" today and making a statement like that which I noted above.


----------



## mksj (Jul 22, 2022)

It is very uncommon to use a tool library on a manual lathe, but not uncommon to have many of the generic Chinese DRO's have missing functions or not be fully functional. You could replace just the DRO head, I use the Easson 12B on my lathe and have had no issues, it has a 199 datum tool file, also a possibility is Yuri's tablet based, as well as other units. I assume you are running glass scales so they should be compatible. The ES-12B head unit runs around $300 with shipping. PM/QMT may also have them. I find the displays to be much more readable under different light conditions and the button functions to be quite straight forward. I use the 3rd axis on the tailstock where I added a magnetic scale.








						Easson ES-12B LCD 3 Axis Digital Readout Display Console
					

Easson ES-12 colour 7" LCD graphical digital readout display console with 3 axis input.  Universal milling and lathe function DRO. Please note this console has the same functions and specification as the Easson DRO-ES-12C-3LCD but has a different front panel layout and built in power supply.




					www.machine-dro.co.uk


----------



## Jake P (Jul 22, 2022)

mksj said:


> You could replace just the DRO head ............


Mark, unless I'm mistaken, in order to gain full functionality of the tool offset function you need to have scales that have a built in reference point.  The scales that were sold with my 1440GT (used to me and originally sold in 2017) do NOT have this function.

Stefan Gottenwinter (sp?) has a youtube video detailing his lathe DRO and shows how the DRO can determine it's position each time it's powered up relative to this known point within the scale.

My point being, unless I'm mistaken, that if your scales don't have this built in capability replacing the head unit will not gain full functionality.


----------



## mksj (Jul 22, 2022)

Jake you are correct that the DRO will not remember absolute positions once powered off and there are few scales that have specific reference points built in. Some of the newer magnetic scales are absolute reading, but quite a bit more expensive. But my understanding of the datum file is that is based off the absolute position, so you should be able to zero an absolute reference point and then all the tooling datum points would be relative to that 0 point. So I could use my dial indicator in a fixed holder to say get a known zero point or diameter reverence and all the other cutters should give the same relative point once that tool is loaded. Not too dissimilar than setting the height gauge on a mill and then loading the specific tool/cutter. I could see if doing a lot of repeat parts that it would be quite helpful.


----------



## BladesIIB (Jul 22, 2022)

I find the tool offsets quite handy even on a manual lathe.  To Mark's point above, they hold true to whatever zero point you set.  You don't even have to use the center origin like a CNC machine.  You can select your own start point and work from there.  Using the offsets tends to give you more normal numbers when creating what I call a "formula" for making a part.  I have a couple of videos on using tool offsets with a DRO on a manual lathe for repeatability on multiple parts.  Recent one posted in this thread.

5C Collet Stop Review and DRO Tool Offsets


----------



## Jake P (Jul 22, 2022)

mksj said:


> Jake you are correct that the DRO will not remember absolute positions once powered off and there are few scales that have specific reference points built in. Some of the newer magnetic scales are absolute reading, but quite a bit more expensive. But my understanding of the datum file is that is based off the absolute position, so you should be able to zero an absolute reference point and then all the tooling datum points would be relative to that 0 point. So I could use my dial indicator in a fixed holder to say get a known zero point or diameter reverence and all the other cutters should give the same relative point once that tool is loaded. Not too dissimilar than setting the height gauge on a mill and then loading the specific tool/cutter. I could see if doing a lot of repeat parts that it would be quite helpful.


Mark, you did a better job of detailing the use of this function than I did in post #19. 

The relevant takeaway here is that with the proper scales (and DRO) you can go right to cutting with properly registered tools and go straight to a finished product with pretty tight tolerances and no measurements, whereas without the proper scales (even with the proper DRO) you are going to have to make some kind of reference measurement or cut each time you start the system back up.

Is that a big deal?  Of course that will depend on individual needs.  For me as a hobbyist it’s no big deal to make the reference cut.  Certainly not a big enough deal that I am going to replace an otherwise functioning system.


----------



## Coolusername (Jul 25, 2022)

Thanks for the replies fellas.  Yeah all I need is the datum file (tool offsets) to function off the ABS zero position for both X and Z.  My current DRO remembers the ABS and INC zero positions but you cannot move the dials if the DRO is off.  So either don't touch those dials or simply leave the DRO on.  Works fine.  But being able to remember more the two tools would save me a lot of time during those repetitive steps for my short production runs.  I watched your vid BladesIIB, and yeah that's what I'm looking to do.  I have one part in particular that uses about 7 different tools to produce in first and second operation machining.  So I was hoping to finally get my tool offset setup, only to find my DRO is less than.

MKSJ, thanks for the recommendation.  I see you're in Fallbrook, I'm in Temecula so maybe we could meetup so I can see your setup and/or vice versa.  Would be cool if you're up for it.

PM did say they have other, newer LCD models that are full function with tool offsets, and they are supposed to get back to me sometime this week.  I'll keep ya'll posted for informational purposes.  I know they are a good company with a good reputation, just hoping they come through on this one.


----------



## Susquatch (Jul 25, 2022)

mksj said:


> Jake you are correct that the DRO will not remember absolute positions once powered off and there are few scales that have specific reference points built in. Some of the newer magnetic scales are absolute reading, but quite a bit more expensive. But my understanding of the datum file is that is based off the absolute position, so you should be able to zero an absolute reference point and then all the tooling datum points would be relative to that 0 point. So I could use my dial indicator in a fixed holder to say get a known zero point or diameter reverence and all the other cutters should give the same relative point once that tool is loaded. Not too dissimilar than setting the height gauge on a mill and then loading the specific tool/cutter. I could see if doing a lot of repeat parts that it would be quite helpful.



This is how my Ditron works. No reference point built into the scale is required. All that is needed is new or old zero and all the tools in the library reference off that.


----------



## Coolusername (Aug 4, 2022)

Quick update...PM is going to contact the DRO OEM to see if there is any sort of Z-axis tool offset function with this display module.  I'm not holding my breath here.  I also asked about getting a different DRO display that has what I need that will work with my current scales.  I'm looking for a plug-n-play solution so I don't have to buy and install new scales because I change DRO display modules.  PM told me they don't have any other unit that will work with my glass scales as they are all different.  I didn't know that, I figured they were somewhat universal.

So in the spirit of manual machining, I've begun to precisely measure my Z-offets manually and work out new "step-over-numbers" if you know what I mean.  It works and helps me save time, but its not ideal nor what I thought I was buying.


----------



## mksj (Aug 4, 2022)

The scales tend to use the output, but the pins may be different. On my ES-12B I use a combination of glass scales and magnetic, the original X and Z glass scales came with the DRO, I later added a magnetic scale to the tailstock. Prices have come down on the magnetic scales that the cost increase over glass is small. You can get complete 3 axis packages for $550-650. Coolusername PM me with your contact info if you want to swing buy.
Mark


----------

