# How to Raise a Vice on a Kneeless Mill?



## Robo_Pi (Feb 6, 2019)

I have one of those 3-in-1 Lathe/Mill/Drill machines.   I'm trying to do some light milling on it. 

One major problem is that the table is way beneath the milling cutter.   I actually bought a pretty tall X-Y vice to hold the workpieces.  The main reason for buying this X-Y vice was to raise the workpiece up.   But it is nice to have the X-Y adjustments too for getting things adjusted initially.  I tend to lock those down then when I'm actually doing the milling and I use the Lathe Saddle for the actual feed.   So far this has been working for me.   But today I ran into two problems.


I'm trying to mill a very small piece of work.
I've eliminated the drill chuck from the mill arbor and I'm using a collet to hold the end mill.

First let me share some photos of the set up, then I'll address the problems on the other side.

Below:
Picture of the workpiece in the vice with the mill quill fully retracted.
PHOTO A:



Below:
Picture of the workpiece in the vice with the mill quill fully extended.
PHOTO B:



As you can see the mill cutter doesn't even reach the workpiece when the mill quill is fully extended. 

The problem I had when using the drill chuck was simply too much play.  For one thing I couldn't even get the milling cutter to sit very deeply in the drill chuck.  I'm using a double-ended mill, so it wouldn't go in the drill chuck very far.  So now I've put the end mill in a MT3 collet.   It fits in much further, and since there is no drill chuck it's also much higher and closer to the end of the quill.   So now I can't even reach the workpiece with the quill fully extended. 

Not only this, but ideally I'd like to work with the quill retracted into the milling head as far as possible.   The further I extend the quill the more likely I'll run into potential problems with the cutter not being real stable. 

Since there is no Z-axis on the table, I can't lift up the workpiece using a Z-axis screw.   So the only thing left to do is to block up the vice.  I figure I'll need to put a mounting plate between the vice and the table to lift the vice up a good 3" or so.     But I don't have any steel or even aluminum blocks to use to block this up.  So I'm wondering if maybe I could weld something up out of angle iron?   I could then mill the finished thing flat and parallel with the mill.  Since the extension block would be tall enough I could put it in the vice as is, and it would already be 3" taller.  

Just curious if anyone else has any other suggestions?   Also, I'm wondering if a block of oak would work in a pinch for this lightweight job for now?  I have a woodshop and I could mill up a nice wooden block of oak pretty quickly.   But I wonder if the wood would give and cause vibrations or chatter?  I'm thinking a block of oak probably wouldn't work very well?  But it is tempting since it would be a quick fix for now.

Finally, is it ok to hold a 1/4" end mill in an MT3 collet?   The collet is 3/8" as is the body of the 1/4" end mill.    I just bought these MT3 collets to use on the lathe, I certainly don't want to ruin one by spinning this endmill in one. 

I have some ER20 collets on order to use in the Mill for holding tools, but they won't be here to the end of the month.  So I was going to try using this MT3 collet for now.   That is, if I can lift the work piece up to where I can mill it.  

All I want to do is mill the inside corner of a piece of angle steel so that the corner is nice and square instead of rounded.   This shouldn't take much milling to do this.   Just basically cleaning up an inside corner. 

I just need a rock solid way to lift this vice up about 3".

Any suggestions?  Other than buying a real mill.   

I do plan on buying a real mill someday, but that's another story entirely.


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## kd4gij (Feb 6, 2019)

An end mill holder would get your bit down lower.


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## Cooter Brown (Feb 6, 2019)

Buy 2 sets of cheap 123 blocks and stick them under the vise... Or get a lage block of steel/aluminum and make a spacer... Or Like kd4gij above^ said get a tool holder like an ER32 collet holder or set screw end mill holder, that can lower your tooling almost 2 inches very easily....


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## DAT510 (Feb 6, 2019)

From the pictures it looks like there's a spacer installed to raise the mill head?  (The silver Block, Red Arrow)  If it can be removed it will lower the milling head by that amount.


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 6, 2019)

DAT510 said:


> From the pictures it looks like there's a spacer installed to raise the mill head?  (The silver Block, Red Arrow)  If it can be removed it will lower the milling head by that amount.



I just went out and looked.  It doesn't look like that would be easy to remove.  I also looked in the manual I have for this mill.  They actually have a second model that does have the adjustable head.   But that model is shown with large handles sticking out with a large thread where the silver metal band is. 

I don't think the model I have is meant to be adjusted that way.   There are two Philips head screws in the back holding that silver band on there.  I'm thinking that's just a thin band of metal that is just a cover.   It would even be hard to remove that cover because the belt drive box is right up against it.   It might be interesting to take that cover off and see what's under there some day.   But I'm doubting that this model can be adjusted for height.  



Cooter Brown said:


> Buy 2 sets of cheap 123 blocks and stick them under the vise... Or get a lage block of steel/aluminum and make a spacer...



I have 123 blocks on my wish list.   But that seems like a kind of fragile fix for this problem.  I would need to use 4 of them standing up to get the 3" height on all four corners of the vice.   I'd rather go for the large block of steel or aluminum and make a spacer.   Not sure where to get a block that size though.    It would need to be about 3" x 6" x 8".   If I had a piece of stock that size I'd make a nice table riser out of it. 

Better yet would be three pieces of 1" x 6" x 8".   That way I could stack them and use it to raise the vice 1" at a clip.   More versatility that way.   Yeah, I'll definitely keep my eyes open for some stock that size. 



Cooter Brown said:


> Or Like kd4gij above^ said get a tool holder like an ER32 collet holder or set screw end mill holder, that can lower your tooling almost 2 inches very easily....



I have a 14 pc set of ER20 collets on order the go from 1/8" to 1/2".   In fact, I bought those specifically to use as tool holders on this mill head.   Those will be here on Friday.     Unfortunately the MT3 to ER20 collet holder won't be here until later this month.   I'd like to mill this angle iron out before then. 

But even with an additional 2" on the tool holder I'd still need to extend the quill quite far to get down to the work area.  So even then I would still like to have those riser plates.   But I'm glad I posted this thread.  I was thinking of making just one large block.  Not I'm thinking of making three of them 1" thick and stacking them.  That will give me more room for ajustment depending on the size of the workpiece. 


What do you guys think of the block of nicely planed Oak just for a quick fix?  Do you think the wood spacer would be too shaky, even for really light cuts?   I don't want to break another end mill.  I already broke one end mill in the previous set-up using the drill chuck.  That's why I'm realizing now that I need to get more rigidity here.  Especially at the tool end.   Of course, when I was using the drill chuck the end mill was sticking out of the chuck pretty far because it's a double-ended mill and bottomed out in the drill chuck.  So it was sticking out quite a bit.  I didn't like that when I started working with it.  I should have known that wasn't going to turn out well.


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## ttabbal (Feb 6, 2019)

There's a guy on ebay that sells 7075 aluminum drops "Fortal" brand. Message him and ask about the size you want. He was happy to make sure my box included one that would work for me. scottkrez is his ebay name.


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## BROCKWOOD (Feb 6, 2019)

Newb speaking to a Hobbyist. My combo is very different from yours. G0773 for mine. My 1st metal machine outside of automotive necessities. Thought I had an R8 for the mill column as newer versions did, so got an R8 collet adaptor with collets along with the machine. Dang it, my new machine was built prior to all the changes that the included instructions had. So got the same thing in MT3 with it's own collets. Double dang. No space to work with such an adaptor. Measure twice cut once............ So I got my arse & wallet out from the front of all this & bent myself to understanding what, just what, would actually fit my situation. I went with a direct MT3 collet set & am in business now. Seems that is what you are using now & a good choice for most of what you might find yourself doing too!

How does that help you? Well let us return to your actual topic. Raising your work up on your cross slide adds error in that no matter how secure the stack of vise + whatever is:  the small angle of deflection that cross slide has vertically is multiplied be the width of that angle created that slop. I suppose when you lock the table down only the lift will be in only 1 direction. I am certain you can account for that & avoid it. Just know that if any 1 direction can cause a 1 degree shift Now that shift, while very small near the X axis can be 0.1075 @ 6". Experiment with this & make do with what you have. Learn on scrap. Take measurements. Compare expected results to actual & learn what you can from that.

The Grizzly T10070 MT3 adaptor set with collets is what you need to get down low - perhaps from another vender. But you can see what it looks like & look around for better prices. When / if you decide this would be a direction that is right for you: I have an unused set in box that I will let go & ship for 1/2 new regular price to lower 48 states. You get a tool you can use. I get to cut the expense I made in learning the hard way to measure & understand before buying easier to swallow.

Best wishes!!!

b


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## tweinke (Feb 7, 2019)

Smithy sells  what they call a step block to raise the work up.  https://www.smithy.com/accessories/milling-setup/granite  .


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## GL (Feb 7, 2019)

I'm with Dat510, that spacer needs to come out.  I'm betting if you pull the drill head, there are bolts holding everything together in the stack.  Probably 4 socket head capscrews.  The possible problem may be that you lose vertical enough that drills don't fit.  The chuck will take up some of the space.  The pictures seem to show it would still work.  Screw machine drill bits will reduce the need for vertical space, and they are stiffer.  Spacing the vice up puts a bunch odd side loads on the compound of the lathe if you are milling.


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 7, 2019)

tweinke said:


> Smithy sells  what they call a step block to raise the work up.  https://www.smithy.com/accessories/milling-setup/granite  .



That is really nice, and I'd love to have it.   But I'm not prepared to pay that much for it.   I was thinking of buying a steel or aluminum block and making my own, but even that raw block of metal would cost me $60 or more, and I really didn't even want to spend that much.  In fact, I'd like to solve this problem for free.   But that just me.  

In any case that's what I'm going to try to do.  I just realized that I have an old mower deck laying out in the mud that I don't even have the tractor for anymore.




I know it looks pretty bad, but them there straps are 3/8" thick steel.   So I grabbed those straps. 




It turns out that they are perfect for this job.  Look at those slots!!!  Just what the doctor ordered.   Notice the two short ones, they actually fit almost perfectly on the lathe table,  (see next photo)




Those slots are really nice, the other two holes are misplaced, but I can drill new holes for the far end.   

These straps were screaming at me.   "Use us!  Use us!".  So I did.   I cut them all down to size like the two shorts ones.  And then cleaned them up with a wire brush on a 4.5" grinder. 



They aren't perfectly flat, but actually they are pretty darn flat considering their previous use.    Some day I might take a light milling cut on them top and bottom to get them nice and flat. 

In the meantime I'm going to us them as is.  After I drill the second hole in all of them.  

Here's what they look like under the vice. 






I realize this would make any real machinists squirm, but it's not like  this is going on a Bridgeport mill, or anything like that.    As long as it's solid enough for my light cuts it'll work.    I can always use shims to line up the vice and work to the tolerances I need. 

The nice thing about this set up is that I can use as many of these as needed to raise the vice as much as I need.   It's basically adjustable height by 3/8" intervals.    There were even a couple more thick straps on that mowing deck, so I could stack some even higher yet.  I'm currently up to about 1 - 3/4" right now. 

I haven't drilled the second holes yet.   And then I'll need to get some taller T-bolt studs.   We'll see how this goes.   It could turn out to be a disaster if it vibrates too much.  Only time will tell. 

Obviously a solid block would be better.  But hopefully this will get me by for light work.     I'm hoping to buy a real milling machine at some future point.   And this thing is never going to replace a real milling machine anyway.   But I'm trying to get by with it for now. 

After I drill the second hole in all the straps and make up some longer T-bolts I'll report back on how well it's working. 

Hey, can't complain too much about a "_free_" fix. 

No heavy milling.  Just light work here.  This thing will never be a Bridgeport.  Let's face it.


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## BROCKWOOD (Feb 7, 2019)

Necessity is the mother invention!!!


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 7, 2019)

GL said:


> I'm with Dat510, that spacer needs to come out.  I'm betting if you pull the drill head, there are bolts holding everything together in the stack.  Probably 4 socket head capscrews.  The possible problem may be that you lose vertical enough that drills don't fit.  The chuck will take up some of the space.  The pictures seem to show it would still work.  Screw machine drill bits will reduce the need for vertical space, and they are stiffer.  Spacing the vice up puts a bunch odd side loads on the compound of the lathe if you are milling.



I just looked it up in my manual.  There are exploded views and mine does not have the head-height adjustment. 

Here's the exploded view of the adjustable model:
Notice that is has handles and a large adjustment screw.



Below is the exploded view of the model I have 
Note that there is just a block of steel where the adjustement screw would go. 
That silver band just goes around that solid block.



So there's no way to adjust the head height on the model I have.


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 7, 2019)

BROCKWOOD said:


> Necessity is the mother invention!!!



It also helps to be financially destitute.  After all, if I had the financial resources I'd have a Bridgeport.  

In fact, I was just looking at nice Roundtower vertical mill for $895.   Very similar to an old Bridgeport.   I can't really afford it right now, but it's already sold anyway.  They go quick at that price. 

In the meantime the mower deck fix is on the table.   Hopefully it will work and not result in a bunch of chatter or whatnot.   I do plan on milling those straps flat eventually.  Just the slightest skim cut on each side to get them flat and parallel.  But we'll have to see if they work as-is first.   It's an invention in progress.


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## rock_breaker (Feb 8, 2019)

If you use the 3/8" straps you may want to stack each layer at 90` to the previous layer "cribbing" ,it will make the stack more stable.
IMHO exploring the possibility of removing a spacer block would be well worth the time. With respect to lifting the milling head I have a  problem in my shop, it is a former wood frame house. On one area I put a surplus 3/4" eye bolt through the ceiling and a 4"x4" timber above the ceiling joists, it will handle 500 lbs but the room   is only 8' wide and the hoist is about 2 feet from one supporting wall.
Good luck
Ray


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 8, 2019)

rock_breaker said:


> If you use the 3/8" straps you may want to stack each layer at 90` to the previous layer "cribbing" ,it will make the stack more stable.



I was thinking about that myself.    I have some more strap left over, so I might make a few shorter ones just for that purpose. 



rock_breaker said:


> IMHO exploring the possibility of removing a spacer block would be well worth the time.



I don't think it's possible on this model.   The power shaft that runs up to the milling head is splined on the model with the adjustable head allowing for the head to be raised and lowered.  I think the power shaft on mine is made to just fit this one height.   So to lower the head would probably require making a shorter power shaft.   That would be a major undertaking.   

I'm hoping to buy a "real" milling machine in the not-to-distant future.   So this machine isn't worth trying to redesign. 

In fact, I just missed out on this Roundtower mill for $895.   Someone else bought it while I was thinking about it. 




I'll keep looking.  I'll find one I like at a price I'm willing to pay eventually.   But boy this Roundtower looks like quite the deal.  Too bad I missed out on this one.   It looks pretty nice for the price.


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## matthewsx (Feb 8, 2019)

I hate to point this out but your probably have the tool you need right in your toolbox. The operation you're describing could be done with a file in less time than it took me to read this thread. I'm not trying to be mean, just pointing out that it doesn't take $10k worth of tooling to do a 10 cent job.

Cheers,

John


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## Canus (Feb 8, 2019)

Not sure of the dimensions of your vise base but have you considered using a piece of 3" x ? box tubing as a riser?   I've got a piece of 4" tubing that I have machined all 4 sides parallel that functions as both an angle plate and riser when needed.


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## Cooter Brown (Feb 8, 2019)

Robo_Pi said:


> I'll keep looking.  I'll find one I like at a price I'm willing to pay eventually.   But boy this Roundtower looks like quite the deal.  Too bad I missed out on this one.   It looks pretty nice for the price.



Save up enough money for a Bridgeport before you start looking that way you can jump on it when you find one. Trying to save for a machine that is available right now never works out for me, someone always beats me to it...


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 8, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> I hate to point this out but your probably have the tool you need right in your toolbox. The operation you're describing could be done with a file in less time than it took me to read this thread. I'm not trying to be mean, just pointing out that it doesn't take $10k worth of tooling to do a 10 cent job.



You're absolutely right.  If my goal was to just clean up the inside corner of this piece of angle iron I could have done that a long time ago in 5 minutes without any machines at all.   That's not the point of this exercise.  The point of this exercise is to increase the capability of this machine.  This isn't the first time I've wished I could raise the vice, and I'm sure it won't be the last.    In fact, before I bought this tall X-Y vice it was basically impossible to use the milling head at all as the lathe table is simply way too far beneath the milling cutter.   The X-Y vice already give me about 5 inches of height.   But even that is still not enough.  I was thinking of a second solution, and that would be to simply by yet another small vice to put in the jaws of the X-Y vice.   That would probably work too.   I'm sure there's more than one way to skin this cat.



Canus said:


> Not sure of the dimensions of your vise base but have you considered using a piece of 3" x ? box tubing as a riser?   I've got a piece of 4" tubing that I have machined all 4 sides parallel that functions as both an angle plate and riser when needed.



That's a great idea.   In fact, it sounds like a good idea to have several of those laying around for various jobs.  I don't currently have any box tubing laying around.  I'm just getting back into machining again.  So my scrap metal pile is currently non existent.   That's going to change over the course of this summer though.



Cooter Brown said:


> Save up enough money for a Bridgeport before you start looking that way you can jump on it when you find one. Trying to save for a machine that is available right now never works out for me, someone always beats me to it...



You're right.  I'm dreaming too soon.   I also need to put a new clutch in my truck before I set out to pick up any heavy machines. 

The a new clutch and pressure plate are on order.   Only $53, I was shocked that I could get a new clutch and pressure plate that cheap.   And I'll be installing that baby myself for free.    That's the only way I can afford to save up money to buy machines.  

I was actually looking at a mag chuck for $69 too, but that's gone as well. 

The only two items on my wishlist that are still available are the following.  But they'll probably be gone too before I get the clutch installed in my truck. 

South Bend Lathe - $1,100



I'm sure that will be gone before I can get the truck repaired. 

Also a Surface Grinder - $235



There's no mag chuck with it, so that $69 mag chuck would have been nice.  I was going to toss the Roundtower mill on there too since they are all from the same place.  One trip, three machines.   It would a little crowded on a 16' trailer, but I think I could have squeezed them all on there.   I'm sure I can pick up the lathe and surface grinder in one trip.    But these will probably be gone too before my truck recovers from slippery clutch syndrome. 

That's alright.  These prices are typical I'm sure.  In fact, they have some other choices similarly priced. 

In fact, they also currently have this Sebastian lathe for $999

I'm torn between it and the SouthBend.



Because things move so fast I plan on calling in my purchase and then driving out to pick the stuff up.  That way it won't be sold while I'm driving over to pick it up.    So I thought I'd buy the SouthBend lathe officially, and then when I get there take a look at the Sebastian and compare it with the SouthBend.   Maybe then I could get them to cancel the Southbend and grab the Sebastian instead. 

*Disclaimer*:  I'm dreaming out loud.  It may not be until mid summer before I'm actually ready to pick anything up.  So those who don't enjoy reading about a hobbyist's dreams are better off ignoring my posts.  

That RoundTower mill was from this same place.   But they just now got in a Bridgeport, but they want $1200 for the Bridgeport.   I like the $895 for the Roundtower much better. 

I'll keep dreaming whilst I replace the slippery clutch on my truck.   Who knows what they'll get in next?  They had a really nice Atlas lathe that went for $399.  But it was gone the day it came in.   It was a pretty large Atlas and had some extra tooling too.  So you never know what to expect. 

This place is about 200 miles from me and I don't like to drive far.   So I'd like to jump when I can get a nice lathe, vertical mill, and surface grinder all on one fell swoop.   All at prices I'm willing to spend.  I'm looking for an "Instant Shop" for about $2500 all toll.  I don't mind machines that need to be rebuilt.   I'm a hobbyist remember.   I'm not starting up a business.


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 9, 2019)

*UNBELIEVABLE!*

I just finished drilling the holes in the straps.   I didn't have tall enough T-nut studs so I had to use some standard hex bolts for now.  And those were too long so I have large nuts taking up the extra space.   Just ignore the studs.  

But I am totally flabbergasted.   After mounting this vice I set up a dial indicator to measure how level the top of the vice jaws are with the lathe bed.   I'm measuring this with respect to main lathe bed ways.    So the indicator is mounted directly to the ways.  I'm measuring the top of the vice jaws as I screw the cross slide back and forth.   The vice jaws are 4" wide. 

Here's the set up, sorry for the poor photo:  You can't see the dial gauge, but it's just reading zero anyway.



I was expecting this to be off by a lot!   Maybe even as much as 30 thou or more.  But to my utter shock and amazement it was only 3 thou difference over the 4" jaw surface.    And that was just after bolting it on.   I hadn't even tried to tap in an adjustment yet.   With a few taps here and there and some more stud tightening I was able to get it less than a thou over the 4 inch jaws.   In fact, at first I was thinking the dial indicator must be broken because the needle wasn't moving at all.   But then I notice a small scratch in the vice jaw and sure enough the dial indicator measured that scratch.  Just a few tenths. 

So this is just way better than I had expected.  I can't believe it's this close.  Those straps cleaned up pretty nice with the wire brush evidently.

So then I check to see if the vice was perpendicular to the bed.  That I had only eyeballed.   And again I was surprised at how close that was.  It was only about 5 thou off.  See next photo.  Again I'm measuring relative to the main ways of the lathe bed.  I'm running the cross slide in and out while measuring against the side of the vice jaw. 



With just a few taps of a heavy hammer I was able to get that lined up to less than a thou across the 4" travel. 

*SUCCESS!*

Ok, before I finished this post I figured I better go back out and cut the workpiece I was hoping to cut.

It went smooth as can be!  No chatter, no play, no nothing.  Just a nice rock-solid cut.  I started off with skim cuts of about 5 thou just to test consistency and stability.  That when so well that I got bold and took a 25 thou cut clear across the the vice, actually even over.  The workpiece was 5 inches long sticking out of the vice on either side and still it went rock-solid smooth cutting.  

This set up will definitely work.   Plus it's not even refined yet.  I still need to get proper T-nut bolts.   And I might try adding those 90 degree cross straps that rock_breaker suggested.   Although I certainly didn't need them for this job. 

So, whipeee!  It worked!   Now I have an elevated vice for future projects.   Fully adjustable in 3/8" steps too.  And all for FREE <- That's the best part.  

So I guess that finishes up this thread.   Onward to the next machining adventure.


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 9, 2019)

*Just as an aside:*

I thought I should mention this while I'm on the topic. 

I originally wasn't planning on using the X-Y vice cross-feeds for actual cutting.  I really only bought this X-Y vice for the height it offers.  

But on this project my workpiece was 5 inches long and my lathe cross-feed only travels about 4.5" of useful travel.   So it turned out that I had to use the crossfeed screw on the X-Y vice to finish the last 1/2 inch of cut.   And that worked out real slick.  So that was a nice feature.  Saved me from having to reposition the workpiece in the vice and starting over.   So this X-Y vice will actually extend my milling range by an extra 3 or 4 inches.   That's kind of interesting.  I didn't really buy it for that, but hey, it's nice to have. 

Here's the vice I bought from Amazon.  It was just under $60.

WEN 414CV 4.25" Compound Cross Slide Industrial Strength Benchtop & Drill Press Vise







It's certainly not the greatest.  But for the price it ain't bad.   Like I say, when I bought it I was just buying it for the height.   

I wasn't even thinking of using the X-Y feature other than for just quick set up.   Also, I keep these gibs pretty tight.  I wasn't planning on using the X-Y after initial set-up.  But as it turns out, it came in handy after all.    If you're looking for high precision though you'd definitely be far better off buying a much more expensive X-Y vice.   But hey, for 60 bucks this baby ain't bad.   I'm happy with mine.  Take good care of it and don't abuse it and it should last quite a while.   Put big heavy stuff in it and beat it up and it will probably break fairly easily.   So beware of that.


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## Larry42 (Feb 11, 2019)

Robo_Pi said:


> You're absolutely right.  If my goal was to just clean up the inside corner of this piece of angle iron I could have done that a long time ago in 5 minutes without any machines at all.   That's not the point of this exercise.  The point of this exercise is to increase the capability of this machine.  This isn't the first time I've wished I could raise the vice, and I'm sure it won't be the last.    In fact, before I bought this tall X-Y vice it was basically impossible to use the milling head at all as the lathe table is simply way too far beneath the milling cutter.   The X-Y vice already give me about 5 inches of height.   But even that is still not enough.  I was thinking of a second solution, and that would be to simply by yet another small vice to put in the jaws of the X-Y vice.   That would probably work too.   I'm sure there's more than one way to skin this cat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Replacing a clutch: If your truck has a hydraulic actuated clutch replace the slave cylinder at the same time. Especially if it is inside of the housing. 
Check any tools you are considering for cracked castings or really worn beds. Either would make them pretty much worthless. Yes they could be repaired but the cost would be a lot.


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## johnnyc14 (Feb 11, 2019)

There are riser blocks made for those 3 in 1 machines. Here is example.


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 11, 2019)

Larry42 said:


> Replacing a clutch: If your truck has a hydraulic actuated clutch replace the slave cylinder at the same time



I haven't looked it over yet.   It's a 1992 Ford F-150 2WD 5-speed.   Or 4-speed with Overdrive?   I hope I get the right clutch.  I'm ordering it mail order.   I don't know whether it's hydraulic or mechanical linkage.  I'm guessing it's most likely hydraulic.   I could go look right now but it's nasty weather out there and the truck is covered with snow right now.    A glance under the hood would tell me immediately.  But I'm guessing it will most likely be hydraulic.  Mechanical linkage would be too good to be true.    I like the old fashioned stuff.  Why bother with hydralics when a metal rod works just fine?   Keep things simple.

I actually bought this truck because it's barebone.  A simple 300 cu 6 cyl engine.   A simple manual transmission.   No air bag.  No power windows.  No extra unnecessary stuff.   It actually does have air conditioning but that doesn't work anyway.   See.  The more stuff the more things go wrong. 

I really wanted an older truck but couldn't find one in decent shape for a good price.  I lucked out and got this one for a song and it's in really great shape overall.   I'm tickled pink to own it.  

I would have preferred 4WD, but this baby was in such good shape at the right price I couldn't pass her up, and I have no regrets.  Beautiful machine!

I'm treating her like an antique and doing restoration work progressively every summer.   She's only getting better with age.   So yeah, I'll replace the slave cylinder if she has one.   As I say, she's undergoing piecemeal restoration.


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## tweinke (Feb 11, 2019)

It is hydraulic, just replaced one at work last week. Definitely replace the slave cylinder and release bearing. The slave cylinder has a tendency to leak after replacing the clutch if you don't replace it.


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 11, 2019)

tweinke said:


> It is hydraulic, just replaced one at work last week. Definitely replace the slave cylinder and release bearing. The slave cylinder has a tendency to leak after replacing the clutch if you don't replace it.



I used the truck today to go buy kerosene.  It's freezing here!   And I looked and you're right it is indeed hydraulic.  The moment I looked I remembered.    In fact, I'm pretty sure I checked that when I bought it.  Like I say, I would have been thrilled to have mechanical linkage, but this is ok.

Thanks for reminding me.  I'll order a slave cylinder when I order the clutch.   I haven't put the order in yet. 

I see the picture of it now.   It actually goes around the shaft just behind the throwout bearing. 

Darn thing is made out of plastic to boot. 

I'll have to keep an eye out for an older truck.  See if I can upgrade to something better.  

But yeah, I'll definitely replace this slave cylinder while I'm at it.   It would be crazy not to.


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## tweinke (Feb 12, 2019)

Its a pain to bleed the air out sometimes but is doable with patience.


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## Cooter Brown (Feb 12, 2019)

Why are you using that 2 axis vise? Can't you just use the lathe carriage?


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## Robo_Pi (Feb 12, 2019)

Cooter Brown said:


> Why are you using that 2 axis vise? Can't you just use the lathe carriage?



Apparently you didn't read the entire thread.    I bought the vice solely as a riser.   After all $60 is far cheaper than $175 or $159 riser block with no vice.    The fact that it had X-Y cross-slides was just icing on the cake.    I figured at the least those X-Y adjustments might come in handy during the initial set-up of a work piece.    Easier than trying to move the vice around to the best position.  

Once I'm set up, I actually do use the lathe carriage for the actual milling.   I lock the gibs on the X-Y vice down tight.

However, if you had read the details in my previous posts you would have seen that in this particular case the X-Y capability of the vice actually came in handy.   My lathe cross-slide only has about 4.5" of useful travel before the end of the cross-slide screw.   The piece I was milling was 5 inches wide.  So the X-Y capability of this vice saved the day.  I was able to finish the extra inch of travel using the vice cross-slide.   Otherwise I would have had to stop and reposition the workpiece to finish the cut.   So this vice actually gives my little mill extra capacity.   It actually increases my cross travel by about 4 more inches (as a practical matter) maybe even 6 inches taking things to the extreme.  That's not too shabby. 

I didn't even buy it for that purpose, but as it turns out this feature saved the day on this particular job.   I now have 4 more inches of cross-slide cutting capacity than I had before.   So a nice little unplanned bonus there.


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## yas375 (Dec 3, 2020)

I'm glad I found this thread! Thanks everyone participating and sharing good ideas.

I have the same lathe/mill and run into exactly same issue a week ago. I needed to mill a small slot in "quick change tool post". I don't have proper mill vise yet, but I had some cheap crappy vise which I got at an estate sale long ago for a few bucks. So I decided to use those to hold the piece. But it doesn't add much height so I needed to raise it by about 5in. I had some 3/4 thick MDF laying around, so I cut 7 pieces of the size of the saddle, drilled holes for bolts to go through. And used 6-1/2" long bolts to go though the vise mounting halls, mdf and into t-nuts in the saddle slots.

It wasn't very rigid and I definitely don't recommend this method. But at least it got me unblocked. As my friend says: "do what you gotta do to get the part done".






I don't recommend this method and I don't plan to use this "raiser" much. That's why I went for searching and found this thread. I got some ideas. Thanks again everyone who participated.


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## rock_breaker (Dec 11, 2020)

If you haven't tried there may be some former Enco technicians at MSC that may be of  help.
Everything I've read on extensions as has been said here, is that the longer they are, the less stable they become.


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## Illinoyance (Dec 12, 2020)

That style of vise does not have the rigidity required for any serious milling.  Adding a stack of hot rolled bars underneath makes the matter worse. With that height a vise above the saddle any looseness in the saddle and cross slide eill be magnified.  You have a machine that will never perform well.  Sorry.


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