# About to buy a Clausing Colchester 1336 Engine Lathe (Master Mark I)



## bradpj53 (Nov 6, 2022)

This is my first post; I am an experienced woodworker but machine tool newbie wading into the waters. I have always been an Old Iron fan, but everything I seemed to find in my part of the NE USA was heavily used and overpriced; I expected to go the PM route. However I have located a 1960's (?) Clausing Colchester 13X36 that has been extensively over hauled by the seller. I hope to pick it up next weekend. The machine number on the bed is 3/34544; I can't locate a date for that from the online resources I've found but plan to call Clausing for more info. I will be posting many questions on this as time goes on; it is 3PH run by a VFD that the seller is keeping so I'll want to sort that out. Looking forward to other owners of these machines for advice and suggestions. Glad to be a part of this forum. Thanks!

Brad


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## wachuko (Nov 6, 2022)

Welcome to the forum!!  Looking forward to the photos!!


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## bradpj53 (Nov 6, 2022)

This is from the listing.


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## bradpj53 (Nov 6, 2022)

I'm trying to sort out my transport options; I've seen weight numbers variously listed from 1200 to 2000; I'm thinking 1400-1600 and too heavy for my half ton bed. Any hard figue=res out there?

Brad


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## Janderso (Nov 6, 2022)

Welcome Brad.
Colchester lathes are made in England. They are very good machines.
Clausing is the US distributor.
I have a Clausing Colchester 15x50, made in the mid 70’s. I love it!
I think you found a nice machine.

Grab all the tooling you can!! The face plate on the floor and hopefully a four jaw too. The tooling can easily cost more than the lathe.
Keep us up to date on the purchase and the move. Lots of pics please


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## FOMOGO (Nov 6, 2022)

First, welcome to the forum. The lathe looks like to be in great condition. I found this online


> According to http://www.lathes.co.uk they weigh 840-890 kg depending on
 > the length of the bed. That's 1850-1960 lbs, so your guess was pretty good. 
:


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 6, 2022)

There are a couple of publications on owwm.com.  A parts manual is listed under Clausing and a manual is listed under Colchester.  Machine weighs 1550 lbs give or take.  The lathe is driven by a two speed motor to get 16 speeds.  Since there is no back gear, the two speed motor becomes important to getting the rpm range you want, absent the vfd.  A vfd does not like two speed motors if they are of the Dahlander type rather than having two separate windings.  That doesn't mean you can't run with a vfd but you can't switch between motor speeds while the vfd is powered up.  You might want to talk to Mark or others about how to best deal with that.  A downside of that configuration without a vfd is that there are few speeds above 750 - three I believe, so a vfd is a huge improvement if you sort out the wiring to isolate the vfd from the drum switch that drops out the poles on the motor.  Motor is 8 pole and four pole.  If Dahlander, four of the eight drop out in high and I would expect that to be the case.  ask the seller about all of this and verify he is still running the original motor.  If he swapped it out, see what is used now to get the 40-1800 rpm range.

Dave


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## wayback machine (Nov 6, 2022)

I have the same lathe, run from a rotary phase converter - An excellent machine.
Very powerful, and it's done everything I've asked - They do have a tendency to leak, though :~)


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 6, 2022)

bradpj53 said:


> This is from the listing.
> 
> View attachment 425762



That is a nice looking specimen Brad.  I too just acquired a Colchester I'm picking up tomorrow and sweating having to move it with two strangers versus having my brother along as I normally would.

You dont mention what voltage the motor is, but most variable speed conversions out there are 240v 3 phase. I highly recommend the TECO-Westinghouse L510-203-H1-U if your motor is a 3 phase 240v motor, and your input voltage is 240v single phase.  Lots of resources out there to help support you should you need help on the L510, versus the chinese VFDs, which so very often dont work as designed


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 6, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> There are a couple of publications on owwm.com.  A parts manual is listed under Clausing and a manual is listed under Colchester.  Machine weighs 1550 lbs give or take.  The lathe is driven by a two speed motor to get 16 speeds.  Since there is no back gear, the two speed motor becomes important to getting the rpm range you want, absent the vfd.  A vfd does not like two speed motors if they are of the Dahlander type rather than having two separate windings.  That doesn't mean you can't run with a vfd but you can't switch between motor speeds while the vfd is powered up.  You might want to talk to Mark or others about how to best deal with that.  A downside of that configuration without a vfd is that there are few speeds above 750 - three I believe, so a vfd is a huge improvement if you sort out the wiring to isolate the vfd from the drum switch that drops out the poles on the motor.  Motor is 8 pole and four pole.  If Dahlander, four of the eight drop out in high and I would expect that to be the case.  ask the seller about all of this and verify he is still running the original motor.  If he swapped it out, see what is used now to get the 40-1800 rpm range.
> 
> Dave



IF it were mine and had the original motor I'd replace it with a new inverter rated motor and unleash a bit more speed potential, I'm sure that the 1336 can safely be driven at 2000-2200 rpm given the headstock design and bearings. I also recommend redesigning the entire electrical cabinet at the same time so all the controls are brand new. Then Brad would have years of worry free machining.


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## mmcmdl (Nov 6, 2022)

Similar to the 13" in at work .  LO spindle mount .


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 6, 2022)

wayback machine said:


> They do have a tendency to leak, though :~)


If your British (insert type of machine here) doesn't leak oil, it's because it doesn't have any.

Congrats and welcome Brad. That's a great starter lathe.


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## Winegrower (Nov 6, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> If your British (insert type of machine here) doesn't leak oil, it's because it doesn't have any.



Somewhere I read that the early Yankees earned fame for being able to improve things…mainly British things.


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## Firebrick43 (Nov 6, 2022)

bradpj53 said:


> I'm trying to sort out my transport options; I've seen weight numbers variously listed from 1200 to 2000; I'm thinking 1400-1600 and too heavy for my half ton bed. Any hard figue=res out there?
> 
> Brad


That is not to heavy for a 1/2 ton truck???  Most will easily carry 2000 lbs.  The "1/2" ton hasn't been a true number since the 50's.

The problem will be getting it into the truck safely.  You will need some type of loader/forklift or a heavy duty engine crane/gantry and hoist to lift it in, and out.  A low deck trailer makes this obviously much easier and safer.  Tie it down well.  Helped a friend load one of his 15" south bends into a truck of some hill jacks from kentucky.  They were not, and did not tie it down.  I always wondered how far they made it?

Be careful what ever you do.  Never put yourself in the line of fire while moving it.  It would help to to remove all the weight you can. Ie remove the tail stock, cross slide and top slide.  Also remove the hand wheels off the carriage before moving it.  They are the most likely to get damaged in the process.

Unless you have a loader/forklift I would separate the lathe from the cabinet while moving it.

Colchesters are nice lathes.  I have operated a few and in the 12-13 inch size I think they are my favorite. Smaller I would pick hardinge and larger leblonds or monarchs but in the goldie locks size the colchesters are just right.  

 I don't know about that specific model but some with the speed change dial a few years later did have an odd spring loaded head stock bearings that were difficult and expensive to get.


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## bradpj53 (Nov 6, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Welcome Brad.
> Colchester lathes are made in England. They are very good machines.
> Clausing is the US distributor.
> I have a Clausing Colchester 15x50, made in the mid 70’s. I love it!
> ...


This from the listing: *Here is a clause in Colchester 13 x 36 metal lathe it is in extremely good condition the bed is in perfect condition no signs of wear at all. comes with extras as shown 3 and 4 jaw chucks Collet chuck Steady rest follow rest and more￼. I checked for wear on the bed and I am getting .0002  along the whole length of the bed which is nearly perfect.  head stock was disassembled inspected all gears are in good condition no broken or chipped teeth. the head stock was resealed and there are no leaks.  I can load on this end*

I had a nice phonecon w/ the guy, very legit. His biggest concern was finding a good home for it and not letting a flipper get it. He has to move to another state and has to let it go.

Brad


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## wayback machine (Nov 6, 2022)

If you can handle the price, buy it!
If you can, rent one of those drop-deck trailers to move it - No matter what the cost to rent, you'll thank yourself.


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## benmychree (Nov 6, 2022)

wayback machine said:


> I have the same lathe, run from a rotary phase converter - An excellent machine.
> Very powerful, and it's done everything I've asked - They do have a tendency to leak, though :~)


Of course they leak, they are British, after all!


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 6, 2022)

Unless there is an overhead hoist or forklift on both ends, I'd not use a pickup.  There really aren't any lifting points unless a clamp for the bed is made as described in the manual.

I've rehabbed a number of English machines and it is true that the English woodworking machines are more complicated than US Iron but all metalworking machines are complicated.  There can be some leakage on any old machine and if not bad i consider that to be an " automatic purge valve ".  My experience with British stuff has been favorable enough that I don't run from it and have come to appreciate it.

Given the condition and your comfort with the buyer, i'd not hesitate.  Do yourself a favor and buy a set of Whitworth wrenches and a cheap ( India ) tap and die set.  The seller should be able to tell you if the machine is Whitworth and primarily BSW or BSF and BA.  Don't try to make UNC work.

Dave


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 6, 2022)

benmychree said:


> Of course they leak, they are British, after all!


I think it's a design feature, a "partial loss" system. No need to change the oil, just keep it topped (and mopped) up.


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 6, 2022)

bradpj53 said:


> This from the listing: *Here is a clause in Colchester 13 x 36 metal lathe it is in extremely good condition the bed is in perfect condition no signs of wear at all. comes with extras as shown 3 and 4 jaw chucks Collet chuck Steady rest follow rest and more￼. I checked for wear on the bed and I am getting .0002  along the whole length of the bed which is nearly perfect.  head stock was disassembled inspected all gears are in good condition no broken or chipped teeth. the head stock was resealed and there are no leaks.  I can load on this end*
> 
> I had a nice phonecon w/ the guy, very legit. His biggest concern was finding a good home for it and not letting a flipper get it. He has to move to another state and has to let it go.
> 
> Brad


Praise be, may all sellers be enlightened souls who like me dislike flippers and dealers.


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## bradpj53 (Nov 7, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> That is a nice looking specimen Brad.  I too just acquired a Colchester I'm picking up tomorrow and sweating having to move it with two strangers versus having my brother along as I normally would.
> 
> You dont mention what voltage the motor is, but most variable speed conversions out there are 240v 3 phase. I highly recommend the TECO-Westinghouse L510-203-H1-U if your motor is a 3 phase 240v motor, and your input voltage is 240v single phase.  Lots of resources out there to help support you should you need help on the L510, versus the chinese VFDs, which so very often dont work as designed


All I know at this point is 3PH; but glad to have a recommended solution since I am completely new to VFD. I'll be definitely looking for guidance.

Brad


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## bradpj53 (Nov 7, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> Somewhere I read that the early Yankees earned fame for being able to improve things…mainly British things.


LOL some of the old Colchester literature (Post WWII) refers to "being up to American standards". At the same time there was apparently some degree of variability machine to machine in the same run: the tighter tolerance machines would then be tagged and sold as "Toolroom Quality"!


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## bradpj53 (Nov 7, 2022)

Firebrick43 said:


> That is not to heavy for a 1/2 ton truck???  Most will easily carry 2000 lbs.  The "1/2" ton hasn't been a true number since the 50's.
> 
> The problem will be getting it into the truck safely.  You will need some type of loader/forklift or a heavy duty engine crane/gantry and hoist to lift it in, and out.  A low deck trailer makes this obviously much easier and safer.  Tie it down well.  Helped a friend load one of his 15" south bends into a truck of some hill jacks from kentucky.  They were not, and did not tie it down.  I always wondered how far they made it?
> 
> ...


My truck is 2010 Tundra; specs for my model list a cargo weight of 1550# and I take up a share of that as well so I think a trailer is the solution. Good advice, thanks.


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## bradpj53 (Nov 7, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> Unless there is an overhead hoist or forklift on both ends, I'd not use a pickup.  There really aren't any lifting points unless a clamp for the bed is made as described in the manual.
> 
> I've rehabbed a number of English machines and it is true that the English woodworking machines are more complicated than US Iron but all metalworking machines are complicated.  There can be some leakage on any old machine and if not bad i consider that to be an " automatic purge valve ".  My experience with British stuff has been favorable enough that I don't run from it and have come to appreciate it.
> 
> ...


I need education on the Whitworth and related acronyms; remember I'm a newbie!


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 7, 2022)

Hopefully the seller can fill you in as to whether the threads are Whitworth.  Whitworth was the British standard until about 1970 or so.  The tread angle is 55 rather than 60 degrees like others.  A UNC screw will thread into a Whitworth BSW ( except for 1/2" ) but not the other way around.  I generally don't mix and match as the holding capacity is only about 70% if sticking a UNC into a BSW.  A way to tell is to pull a screw or bolt from the machine, measure with a thread gauge, and then try to put a regular nut on the bolt.  If it doesn't go, it's likely Whitworth.  You will also find the hex head sizes are very slightly larger than UNC or UNF so wrenches fit tight.  that is why I picked up a cheap Whitworth wrench set.

Google is your friend here.  An hours reading will tell you most everything you need to know.  It might turn out that the Clausing machines that were made for export used our thread system and all of this is irrelevant.  I specialize in irrelevant.  Dave


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## bradpj53 (Nov 7, 2022)

file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/9a/10/2C923727-990F-4628-B2CA-74EF4378D2D5/68952576713__6D7E5558-C35D-4245-9907-2E834D9DBC57.heic


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## bradpj53 (Nov 7, 2022)

Threads are SAE so good news.


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## Janderso (Nov 7, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> I think it's a design feature, a "partial loss" system. No need to change the oil, just keep it topped (and mopped) up.


My Colchester has a double wall apron that has o-rings that seal the shafts. They leak a bit but no big deal.
I sure wouldn't want to tear it all down just to replace the orings.
I priced a tailstock replacement lead screw and nut, $1,000 and up.
I figure I can make the parts some day when I am feeling my oats, or not


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## bradpj53 (Nov 7, 2022)

Janderso said:


> My Colchester has a double wall apron that has o-rings that seal the shafts. They leak a bit but no big deal.
> I sure wouldn't want to tear it all down just to replace the orings.
> I priced a tailstock replacement lead screw and nut, $1,000 and up.
> I figure I can make the parts some day when I am feeling my oats, or not


I think mine being a round head vs flat is late ‘50’s/early 60’s and has the open apron sadly.


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## Janderso (Nov 7, 2022)

bradpj53 said:


> I think mine being a round head vs flat is late ‘50’s/early 60’s and has the open apron sadly.


Yeah, I think my square head came in around 1972??
They are all very well made machines!


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## MikeInOr (Nov 8, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> If your British (insert type of machine here) doesn't leak oil, it's because it doesn't have any.
> 
> Congrats and welcome Brad. That's a great starter lathe.


I had a factory tech manual on CD for a Jaguar I had when I was young.  The CD leaked oil!


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## bradpj53 (Nov 8, 2022)




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## DeadGuyAle (Nov 8, 2022)

No expert but my two cents on moving something of that size - Don't load it into the pickup bed unless you have access to some serious lifting equipment on both ends.
Rent a drop deck trailer and plan from that point on how to load.
I'm picking up a much smaller Clausing 4900 this weekend (800 lbs). Current plan is place on two 2'x2' 1.5" thick plywood platforms with 5" castors.
Bolt each end down to the platforms using the leveling mounts and roll on/off the trailer.
At double the weight maybe machine rollers as opposed to platforms but I have no experience with something that size.

Once again Drop deck trailer! 
Good luck!


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## bradpj53 (Nov 19, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> There are a couple of publications on owwm.com.  A parts manual is listed under Clausing and a manual is listed under Colchester.  Machine weighs 1550 lbs give or take.  The lathe is driven by a two speed motor to get 16 speeds.  Since there is no back gear, the two speed motor becomes important to getting the rpm range you want, absent the vfd.  A vfd does not like two speed motors if they are of the Dahlander type rather than having two separate windings.  That doesn't mean you can't run with a vfd but you can't switch between motor speeds while the vfd is powered up.  You might want to talk to Mark or others about how to best deal with that.  A downside of that configuration without a vfd is that there are few speeds above 750 - three I believe, so a vfd is a huge improvement if you sort out the wiring to isolate the vfd from the drum switch that drops out the poles on the motor.  Motor is 8 pole and four pole.  If Dahlander, four of the eight drop out in high and I would expect that to be the case.  ask the seller about all of this and verify he is still running the original motor.  If he swapped it out, see what is used now to get the 40-1800 rpm range.
> 
> Dave


Is there a straightforward way to tell if it is a Dahlander type?


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 19, 2022)

I suspect it is.  A dual winding motor would be a large frame size.  That is large but I'll guessing Dahlander.  That is usually the case when the rpm choices are 2-1.  You can put it on a vfd but leave the drum switch intact and always engage it to the proper rpm before turning on the vfd and turn off the vfd before switching back and forth.  The other gears are OK to adjust without turning off the vfd assuming there is a clutch.  Dave


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## bradpj53 (Nov 19, 2022)

TorontoBuilder said:


> IF it were mine and had the original motor I'd replace it with a new inverter rated motor and unleash a bit more speed potential, I'm sure that the 1336 can safely be driven at 2000-2200 rpm given the headstock design and bearings. I also recommend redesigning the entire electrical cabinet at the same time so all the controls are brand new. Then Brad would have years of worry free machining.


I'm very interested in this approach; can you recommend links or resources on doing exactly that? I can always post in the electrical forum but thought I'd ask.


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 19, 2022)

Talk with Mark Jacobs here.  He did the systems for my two lathes.  Outstanding work.  Dave


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## TorontoBuilder (Nov 19, 2022)

bradpj53 said:


> I'm very interested in this approach; can you recommend links or resources on doing exactly that? I can always post in the electrical forum but thought I'd ask.


I'll send you two links later. I'll also write up how I did mine later. I just spent the day picking up my Colchester from my new friend's farm shop where is was temporarily stored and then lifting a ton of stuff in our shop so I am beat at the moment.

By the way, have you managed your move yet?

I loaded a lathe the past two weekends in a row, last weekend it was our old 12x37 with the variable speed, and this weekend my Chipmaster.

I would not use a pick up for either, the lathe ends up very high and requires a very high gantry crane to load and unload, or forklift.  We nearly had my lathe slide off the forks today... luckily the lathe was just inches off the ground and I was able to position and the use load binders to strap it to the fork lift and try again.

I'd use drop deck, a pallet truck and maybe a come along to help pull the lathe onto the trailer with the pallet truck.

In hindsight had I brought my narrow webbing I'd have slung that thru the lift point, hook the webbing onto the fork and lifted it that way. I used the built in lift point when I got home and the lathe lifted perfectly balanced better than anything I had ever rigged before.


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## bradpj53 (Nov 20, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> Talk with Mark Jacobs here.  He did the systems for my two lathes.  Outstanding work.  Dave


Do you know his member ID by any chance? Can't find him by name. Oh- I think it must be mksj based on some of his posts.


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## bradpj53 (Nov 20, 2022)

So the 10 hour round trip is done and the machine is home, tucked in under plastic in my open bay until I can get it moved into my small machine room next weekend.


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## bradpj53 (Nov 20, 2022)

This machine came with a Burnerd 8" 3 jaw, a Cushman 10" 4 jaw, a 12" faceplate, a steady and follow rest and this mystery chuck; I call it a chuck because it seems the right size to mount on this l) spindle. Whatsit?

PO kept his QCTP so I'll be shopping for one.


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## wayback machine (Nov 21, 2022)

Ooooh - You got the follow rest, too .......


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## wayback machine (Nov 21, 2022)

bradpj53 said:


> PO kept his QCTP so I'll be shopping for one.


 A while ago, I got a can't refuse offer on an Aloris CXA, and that's what I use on mine - Some will tell you that's too large.
My lathe came with an import BXA, but I LOVE the bigger Aloris - I use 5/8" insert tooling mostly, the adjustment range works ferfectly with that size, and the extra mass helps, I think. 
Also, that size looks "right" on this lathe, to my eye, anyway.


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## bradpj53 (Nov 21, 2022)

Any ideas on the odd chuck-like thing (pictured with a tape measure)?


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## Weldingrod1 (Nov 21, 2022)

Probably slots to take the tail of a drive dog. Plus, four slots can give you 4 start thread indexing.

BTW, my Hardinge has a 2 speed motor also. I added roller switches to the high/off/low drum that kick in the vfd after the main contacts close. Works great!

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 21, 2022)

When you go from low to high, how long do you wait before re energizing the vfd?    Dave


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## wayback machine (Nov 21, 2022)

bradpj53 said:


> Any ideas on the odd chuck-like thing (pictured with a tape measure)?


I was curious about this also, and asked over on PM, and that was the consensus there also - Dog driver.


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## Firstram (Nov 21, 2022)

Beckerkumm said:


> When you go from low to high, how long do you wait before re energizing the vfd?    Dave


I don’t think you can switch back and forth, you’d need to reprogram the VFD.


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## bukwirm (Nov 21, 2022)

Firstram said:


> I don’t think you can switch back and forth, you’d need to reprogram the VFD.


Many VFDs allow you to have two motor profiles that you can switch between.


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 21, 2022)

I may be wrong but I don't believe the issue is whether the vfd can be programmed for multiple motor parameters but whether it needs the power switched off to change motor speeds.  A Dahlander motor with 8 poles that allow 4 to drop out needs to be wired internally such that the drum switch swaps leads to the motor.  that in effect means that the motor is being disconnected and reconnected.  If the vfd can be powered up but not running the motor while the drum switch is swapping leads, all is well.  If the vfd needs to have the power off to do so, there needs to be  time between powering down and restarting .  In effect the drum switch is between the vfd and the motor.  Dave


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## mksj (Nov 21, 2022)

The question would be if there is any benefit to having the VFD setup for both motor speeds, in this case probably not because it is a half speed motor and the Hp is 1.5Hp vs 3Hp at full speed. There is usually additional torque going from an 4P to an 8P. The lathe uses a multiple section rotary switch to change both the wiring for speed and direction, and if I recall this lathe uses a clutch drive system. At the end of the day, I recommended that he either go with an RPC or a Phase Perfect. Phase Perfect now has three low cost models at 3, 5 and 7.5Hp and they are priced competitively with the RPC. Price wise this is also competitive to a VFD install and in this case it may be a bit more complex to redo all the wiring/controls.

I did a lathe install with a dual speed Dahlander motor for a Chinese lathe, I configured my own rotary switch (something like 12 sections), which would switch the motor windings and the input on the VFD for the 2nd motor. It went through a center stop position. Was a lot of work and the motor never performed well. I scrapped everything, got a vector motor for the lathe, and it worked wonderfully. I have also tried other two speed motors and they often do not do well unless it is a constant Hp and then I just run it on the higher pole setting with over speeding the motor.

Two speed motor and replacement vector motor.


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## Beckerkumm (Nov 21, 2022)

I don't believe the 1336 had a clutch.  There was an air lock switch that started both the motor and the spindle when a lever was operated.  When the lever was turned to off, both the motor and spindle stopped.  Pushing the lever farther operated a brake.  Shifting motor speeds required the motor to be off so it isn't like the Smart Brown that allowed swapping motor speeds on the fly.  

I agree that an RPC or PP is the way to go if keeping the existing motor but you want to be sure the motor is good.  A vfd and motor conversion is an all in proposition and makes the money spent for the RPC a waste for this machine.  If the motor is good, it should be very smooth at low speed.    Here is a three speed motor which is unusual but they are still available.  Not for the faint of heart or thin of wallet though.

Dave


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## bradpj53 (Dec 23, 2022)

I will write up an account of my small adventure in bringing this machine home, but I have a burning electrical question that I can move to the Electrical Forum if needed but one question is specific to Colchesters. I have successfully wired up a Phase Perfect 3HP Unit and have current on all 3 legs. The lathe will not run with the start lever in the proper up position unless the contactor is manually engaged; then it runs until the lever is pulled down. I’m wondering if this is an issue with the starter (I have continuity across the coil) or there there are cut-out switches I don’t know about that are preventing starting. I have the gear cover in place. Starter is an Allen Bradley 709.


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## bradpj53 (Dec 24, 2022)

In reviewing the literature the feature I called "cut-out" is known as an interlock, preventing powering up at a time that would increase injury or damage risk.

Brad


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