# 10F with TH54 bed....getting it running again.



## DJ Bill (Mar 6, 2013)

*10F with TH54 bed....getting it running again. Need stuff..where and what?*

Hi guys, I finally put my old Atlas lathe back together and actuall made the first chips in almost a decade with it. I need to go get some tooling for it, and right now my project is bead roller dies.  About 3 inches in diameter, with varying profiles from a square groove  to a rounded protrusion, and a inside stepped bore.

Is there any advantage to any particular tooling setup? Is there a hot deal out there on a QC toolpost with carbide insert cutter bits?(I think that is the best way to get a rigid toolpost that won't move around like the lantern one seems to want to do)  Do I need a set of boring bars or??  to make the step bore inside my die? (3/4 and one inch bores with a square shoulder between the two.The part is about two inches long)

With the lathe I got two steady rests but each is a different style and missing the bed holddown part, and each one is missing one of the follower inserts. I also have a couple of centers, the one that spins has play in it.....and a lathe dog, and a tailstock drill chuck. It was equipped with the lantern style tool post and I have a few regular steel cutting bits with holders but they don't stay sharp very long at all. I have the lathe going as slow as it will without using the backgear, maybe i need to use it and slow down more..

I'll need help figuring how to make a radius externally on a beading die.  I guess I could run the x and y directions with the crossfeed and compound dials but how to make it a smooth curve unless I use a file to shape it, I dunno. Any ideas??

$$$ is tight right now, work is really slow, but I need to get cracking  on these parts while I have time. 


I have a bunch of pictures on my photobucket albums, don't know if you guys allow image links or not but my user name over there is fbillsjeeps. I'd be glad to post some pics but don't want to step on any toes. Can I post an IMG code link? Or is it a must to download to this site?


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## wa5cab (Mar 6, 2013)

Bill,

I'll get you an answer to your embedded URL question in a bit. If we have a rule, I haven't seen it. So I just asked.

QC tool posts and 4-way turrets are probably roughly equivalent in terms of rigity. I bought my Atlas 3996 new in I think January or February 1982. I know it was after production ceased so it couldn't have been 1981. Anyway, I took delivery with the full set of lantern tool post and holders. Within a week, I went back and bought a 4-way turret and some carbide cutters. I quickly discovered that you can't always load four tools into a 4-way. Getting cutters on center can only be done with a shim or individual shims. And odds are that the next cutter you need won't be in the turret.  So the next month I bought a 100 Series Yuasa quick change set (it was just being introduced to the US market I think and was a bit cheaper than Aloris). I've never regretted it. A month or two ago, one of the known import vendors had some package deals on the same size QC. I think it was LMS (Little Machine Shop) but if I'm wrong, someone please correct. There are two types of QC posts, piston and wedge. The wedge is usually more expensive. My Yuasa is piston and I've never had any issues with it. Generally, holders from different makers will interchange. Phase III (or is it Phase II?) is another import with generally good reports. I have some holders made by them as Yuasa isn't available today other than used. The one thing I would personally avoid, though, is a QC tool post in aluminum instead of steel. I think several forum members have them but I would be afraid of wear over the long haul. The price difference isn't in my opinion great enough to offset that.

Yes, it sounds as though you will need a boring bar. Rough in the stepped hole with two drill bits. Then finish with the boring bar.

The dead center today is more commonly used in the headstock for turning between centers. If the live center has play in it, you probably need to either rebuild or replace it. But I wouldn't be without a good live center. I presume you have photos of the steady rests in your photobuckets album. When I get a chance to look at them, I may have comments. Depending upon make and model number of the steady rests, you may be able to buy replacement insert sets on eBay. I recently bought roller type inserts for my steady rest and follow rest.

If I have the correct mental picture of what you need in a beading die, I think you need to make a form or forming or shape tool in carbide. Find a cutter and die grinding place in your area and have them make you one. You would use it straight in, like a parting tool.

Robert D.


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## kd4gij (Mar 7, 2013)

Here is a good deal on the hold down clamps for your steddy

http://www.tools4cheap.net/proddetail.php?prod=clampatlas

He also has cood prices on QCTP. Jeff is a real good guy to deal with.


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## wa5cab (Mar 7, 2013)

*Re: 10F with TH54 bed....getting it running again. Need stuff..where and what?*

A link to photobuckets is fine.

And tools4cheap might have been the vendor I was thinking of but couldn't remember.  Check both.

Robert D.



DJ Bill said:


> I have a bunch of pictures on my photobucket albums, don't know if you guys allow image links or not but my user name over there is fbillsjeeps. I'd be glad to post some pics but don't want to step on any toes. Can I post an IMG code link? Or is it a must to download to this site?


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## DJ Bill (Mar 7, 2013)

Here's a link to a picture from the album. Later today I will lay out the tooling I have including the steady rests and take some more pictures. I appreciate the link to the steady rest clamp part...I think I need to put together an order..

I found a QCTP kit in his ebay auctions, I will need the cutters to put in it as well, I see it does have the knurling tool included. 

I'm more interested in the QC tool post as a more solid way to mount the tooling than the lantern style TP I have right now. Just in the little bit of work I have done I notice it flexing. Not at all like the lathes we ran in college. The quick change feature is probably one I won't fully appreciate for quite a while.

I also discovered I am missing the tailstock's locking lever after reading the online version of the Atlas book last night. Wow, that book is chock full of stuff I need to absorb. I don't know if it is broken off in the tailstock, all I have is the hole it goes in to, and I haven't looked closely to see just what is up yet. Hopefully I can put a standard bolt in there and use a wrench? Or not...??


I will also put up a few pictures of the bead roller die designs...A custom cutter would be good but I am only making ONE of each design, and don't know what will work until I actually make one.  

THANK YOU for the great replies!!
EDIT: another link to the album itself, maybe...

http://s1296.beta.photobucket.com/user/FBilljeeps/library/Altas 10F lathe cleanup


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## Dranreb (Mar 7, 2013)

Hi Bill, go for the QCTP, I got very fed up with the lantern and the four way very quickly just like Robert, got an import piston type and it works fine, love it!

As to the tailstock ram locking lever, if the bolt is broken off inside, and you remove the ram you should be able to drive the broken bolt and wedges down into the space below. clean up and use a nut and bolt till you can make a new lever.

Have fun..

Bernard


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## DJ Bill (Mar 7, 2013)

Here's all the stuff I had. I thought I had two different steady rests but I have one that clamps to the ways and one that clamps to the compound I think as it has a dovetail on its base. The third one I don't think is for my lathe, as it doesn't fit either..

The album has closeups..

Found out I have quite a bit of the old style tooling, more than I remembered...but it is all state of the art stuff, for WWII times.. One of the boring bars has 1943 stamped in it. Cool!  It is as old as the jeeps I work on!.

Going to try an image code...if it doesn't work or it is not  wanted, no prob. 




And here is the shaft of my bead roller along with a bead roller blank. I need to make dies twice as wide as the blank, with the step in them. One will have a u shaped groove, the other will actually be the profile of the bead I am attempting to make. It is an assymetrical bead, with rounded edges.


Shaft is 1 inch, necked down to 3/4 inch, dies are 3 inch diameter. Need to be two inches wide instead of one inch, with the bead and step centered on them.


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## wa5cab (Mar 7, 2013)

Bill,

As you've apparently figured out, the smaller steady rest does not fit an Atlas.  It might even be for a milling maching, as I've never seen a lathe with the ways so close together.

The larger steady rest is the later pattern, with hinged top.  I didn't actually know that Clausing ever made one for a 10".  The third item that fits a dovetail is a follow (sometimes follower) rest.  It mounts on the back of the carriage dovetail (with cover removed) and is used to support long thin workpieces to keep them from bowing or deflecting away from the cutter.

The three chuck jaws don't appear to fit the 4-jaw (there are only three and 4-jaw chucks don't come with two sets of jaws anyway).  There must once have been a 3-jaw chuck with the set.

Look at the tailstock drawing in the 10F illustrated parts manual in Downloads.  The tailstock ram lock consists of four parts - an L-handled nut, an upper hollow lock sleeve/cylinder that has a bevel on its lower end , a lower hollow lock sleeve with a bevel on its upper end and a square recess on the lower end, and a square head bolt that fits through both cylinders with its head in the square recess.  The bolt sticks out of the upper cylinder and the nut screws onto it.  If you remove the nut, the bolt can drop down far enough to lose it.  On my headstock, the hole that the cylinders drop into is a blind hole.  I've never had an earlier tailstock but someone once told me that they have a through hole and the bolt can drop through.  In any case, if you have all of the parts except the special nut, you can as you or someone said use a plain nut and wrench until you find one of the correct parts.

Robert D.


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## DJ Bill (Mar 7, 2013)

Yes, there is a 3 jaw mounted on the lathe, and I think that is the second set of jaws for it. I guess I will buy just one of those clamps that they had on sale...Maybe I can steal an insert from that small steady rest and make it work somehow. 

This afternoon I tried turning and facing a 2 inch cylinder abut 6 inches long in the Atlas, and decided I really need to learn how to sharpen my tooling.... I have a cheapo bench grinder with a really coarse wheel on it, and it is not doing too well as a tool grinder. 

I wonder if maybe could use my 6 x 48 belt sander for better results?  I do have flap wheels and 4 inch angle grinders all over the place too, not how we were taught for sure but hey, any port in a storm. :thinking:

Going to look at some tooling tonight online.. wish me luck.


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## wa5cab (Mar 7, 2013)

OK.  I hadn't seen a photo of the lathe.  The three chuck jaws are probably the large diameter set for it, commonly and incorrectly called the Outside or OD set.

Yes, you can sharpen HSS cutters with a belt sander.

Robert D.


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## DJ Bill (Mar 8, 2013)

Here's a picture of the whole lathe for ya. Tried to do a little turning on a tranny shaft but it was a bit too hard for my dull bits and lack of technique. Today I try to sharpen some of the HSS bits I have, did  a LOT of reading on  it last night. One thing I read was a little surprising to me and something I used to do but thought I was being a cob job mechanic. Someone said don't bother using the tool holders unless you HAVE TO..just put the bit itself in the toolpost. I have done that, stacking 3/8 bits to get it to a good height, and had OK results...Should I keep doing it that way or make new and sharp bits for my 1/4 inch holders?


I already figured out not to let the compound get too extended...If I keep it back over its base it doesn't seem any where near as flexible.  I also think I need to work on adjusting the gibs for the saddle and another of todays jobs is leveling the lathe and getting it firmly bolted down to its stand in ALL the bolt holes. :madebooboo:


Interesting smiley assortment we have here!! Anyhow, the PIC:


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## Dranreb (Mar 8, 2013)

Using a short piece of non hardened steel stock with just a couple of inches sticking out of the chuck will give you much more rigidity than what you are doing in the pic.

 If you have some stock 2"-3" or so diameter this will allow you to experiment with different spindle speed/feed rates every few passes as you turn it down. I found this useful when I was getting used to my Atlas.

Mounting the tool direct into the lantern is fine, just remember the tool angles are different when the tool is flat, rather than tipped up in a tool holder. 

Hard to explain, but it can be helpful to angle the tool bit ever so slightly towards the tail stock, (the pic by nearest hand) this way the tool is forced away from the cut is if starts digging in if you get something wrong, as it is forced away from the center. 






look here for some basic info on speeds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speeds_and_feeds

Enjoy

Bernard


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## DJ Bill (Mar 8, 2013)

Yup, last night I spent a few hours in the shop experimenting with a thick walled piece of pipe trying to get it centered in my three jaw , facing it and turning it down a little. It was pretty awesome to use the leadscrew to move the carriage back and forth but I think I need to gear it down a bunch. With only three or four gears (59 and 64 and 20 tooth ones that came with it) I haven't figured out how to do that yet. If I want a nice smooth finish besides the tool sharpening issue I mentioned, I have to hand feed...which is how I used to do it. Also hitting the piece with a file will work but that's cheating.

    Will my four jaw grab the short piece better than my three jaw? It feels like it doesn't grab tight enough but I don't want to tighten the single adjusting screw any more....it doesn't seem to take much to knock it 10-20 thou off center at the end that is sticking out maybe 5 inches. 

I read ya about making sure the bit won't dig in if it catches....and also I know about getting it on the centerline, not above or below. Easier said than done on the latter but what a difference when I get it close to right!

    I've got  a lot of learning to do before I make my die set for the bead roller it seems.  I wandered around the local scrap yard for an hour yesterday and didn't find any 3 inch stock to make it from anyhow. (I did get some nice square stock that will work perfect for my hydraulic press though, and a nice chunk of diamond plate for a workbench. Also picked up some smaller thick walled pipe and solid rod to play with.)


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## Ulma Doctor (Mar 8, 2013)

just a quick pointer..
if you don't know if you are off center with your toolbit...
 put a dead center in the tailstock, bring your tailstock close to the toolbit, loosen your toolpost screw, lift or lower the tool to match the point of the dead center, lock the toolpost screw, then recheck ....BADDABING you're on center!
i hope it helps!


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## wa5cab (Mar 8, 2013)

Bill,

The slowest easily obtainable feed (assuming that you have a 3/4" dia. lead screw) is .0035, which needs 2X20T, 2X64T, 48t & 52t.

The 4-jaw would be a little more rigid than the 3-jaw because of increased surface area in contact and decreased angle between the jaws.  However, I would check the jaws in the 3-jaw for bell-mouthing (the right end of the jaw is at a slightly greater diameter than the left end when clamped.  To do this, you have to be able to load the jaws and still leave the contact surfaces open so that you can run an indicator down them.  Two ways to do this - three pins inserted into the fronts of the jaws or 4-hole ring.  This is also the setup for re-grinding the jaws.

Thanks for the photo.



DJ Bill said:


> Yup, last night I spent a few hours in the shop experimenting with a thick walled piece of pipe trying to get it centered in my three jaw , facing it and turning it down a little. It was pretty awesome to use the leadscrew to move the carriage back and forth but I think I need to gear it down a bunch. With only three or four gears (59 and 64 and 20 tooth ones that came with it) I haven't figured out how to do that yet. If I want a nice smooth finish besides the tool sharpening issue I mentioned, I have to hand feed...which is how I used to do it. Also hitting the piece with a file will work but that's cheating.
> 
> Will my four jaw grab the short piece better than my three jaw? It feels like it doesn't grab tight enough but I don't want to tighten the single adjusting screw any more....it doesn't seem to take much to knock it 10-20 thou off center at the end that is sticking out maybe 5 inches.


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## DJ Bill (Mar 8, 2013)

Would it work to run the jaws out against a round ring ?


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## wa5cab (Mar 8, 2013)

No, that loads them in the wrong direction.  That's the direction that you would want to load them if you were going to grind the ID chucking surfaces (which almost never need it).  When you load the jaws on the OD of a workpiece, the jaws cock out slightly at the outer tip (the end towards the tailstock) because there has to be some running clearance between the jaws and the grooves that they run in.  When you chuck a piece on the ID, the outer tip cocks in.  If you were to grind the jaws with them loaded outwards on a simple ring, you would make the bellmouth worse, not better.

Robert D.


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## DJ Bill (Mar 11, 2013)

Todays progress was pretty good ....I bolted the lathe down yesterday and played around some more with grinding the HSS cutter bit I had on my belt sander...(actually my disc sander part of the belt sander) and I was able to make a nice decent cut under power. I also rearranged my lead screw gearing so it turned a bunch slower, and it is actually useable now for turning. 

Today  I decided to give a shot at turning my raw stock down to the overall diameter of my bead roller dies. I thougt first I would give my 4 jaw a shot, and see if I can use my tailstock with a center drilled pilot hole and the live center. (Live centers rotate in a bearing, right? I can't get live and dead PTO 's right on tractors either..lol) 

I didn't even have to clean up the 4 jaw to install it, as the internal threads looked like new. It has a nice layer of dark rust on the outside but I needed to get some work done so I lubed up the individual acme screws and tried installing a 3 inch round piece in it, using my dial indicator to help me center it. (Tubalcains videos have been really helpful in this process for me, thanks!!). I didn't get the rough stock to center to within .010 for about 25 minutes. But....it was worth all the trouble as it really held well. (maybe the rust on the jaws grips better..)

I had a bunch to hog away to get close to the diameter, so two hours later I was within .005 or so of the final diameter. I played with the pulleys for speed, took heavy cuts, light cuts, medium cuts, cut in both directions, under power and not, (I LOVE POWER FEED!!!It is so nice to see that leadscrew actually DO something!!) and pushed the limits as high as I dared just to see what happens to the finish. 

I can already see that the stand  it came on and which has been its home for probably all its life is severely lacking in rigidity. If I kept the speeds down (Still haven't figured out how to tell the speed without a hand held tach which I USED  to have before the theives broke in to my old place in NY) I got a fairly chatter free surface but not as smooth as I liked, and it took way too long. At one point I had a band of chatter marks near the tailstock end of the piece, and the rest was smooth as could be. Increasing the speed eliminated this band, but I had some chatter on the whole cut, which was not visible until I started to polish the part with some plumbers cloth.  I will try and get a picture tomorrow in daylight. 

As I increased the speed it also increased the movement of the stand. Something is out of balance somewhere, and the stand dances in time with it, instead of damping the vibration it seems to add to it.. At one point I measured over a quarter inch of front to back movement of everything while turning at a pretty high speed, one that heated the chips to a nice golden color.  The chips were coming off in a long spiral depending on how deep a cut I took. At .003 on the dial the chips made steel wool, at .015 they were pretty long and messy, getting everywhere to the point I had to stop and pull them away from the work so I could see. (both under power feed)

Anyhow, I got the part so my calipers told me it was pretty close, and ready to turn the other end down to approximately the same diameter.  Before I turn it around I will cut my female die, which is basically a u shaped groove. I will use that end of the piece to hold it for the rest of the job. (Hopefully I will have enough meat to still grab it once I groove it out..)


Just for grins I stuck my dial gage on the compound and checked how much variation there was in the cut....Using the saddle knob I got .002- .003 difference between the middle and the ends of the part, at the place where the chatter was.  Thinking that if my ways allowed the saddle to move around I tried mounting the dial indicator on the compound and used the compound feed to run it along the part, and i got basically the same measurement variation in the same locations, but I couldn't measure the entire cut. 

Anyhow, I am on the way to making  a useable part, wish me luck for tomorrow.   I have not problem with a U groove but making a curved profile to match my casts I made in fiberglass of the ribs is going to be  a new adventure.  I am thinking of somehow mounting the cast to the bed of the lathe with a pointer on the compound to follow it with...:thinking: Already I know I will need a cast of the cast, as what I have now is exactly opposite the shape I need to make. OOPS! 


Thank you to everyone who has given me advice on this and the tool post threads... It is much appreciated!
Hopefully I didn't bore y'all with this epistle.


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## wa5cab (Mar 12, 2013)

Bill,

Sounds as though you have made some progress.  And yes, the stand with your lathe does look a little on the thin side.  Atlas originally made and sold cast iron legs for the 10" and 12".  And for maximum stability, they should be bolted to the floor, not just sitting on it.

For spindle speeds, go to the Downloads section and download the file Atlas-Craftsman Late Speed-Feed Plates.pdf .  Ignore the fact that it says late 12".  And ignore the feeds chart as it is for the 12" QCGB.  The speed chart, with due consideration to where the various pulleys are actually located, applies to all Atlas built 10" horizontal countershaft and 12" lathes.  I don't know that it does not apply to the vertical countershaft models of 9" and 10" but haven't looked into those.  If you research the part number history of the various pulleys, you will find some part number changes, mostly in the late 1930's and the early 1960's.  But the step sizes did not change.  The RPM column assumes a 1725 RPM motor.

When I can find time to do it, I will make up a better chart that says 10" models.

Robert D.


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## DJ Bill (Mar 12, 2013)

wa5cab said:


> Bill,
> 
> Sounds as though you have made some progress.  And yes, the stand with your lathe does look a little on the thin side.  Atlas originally made and sold cast iron legs for the 10" and 12".  And for maximum stability, they should be bolted to the floor, not just sitting on it. It sounds like a new lathe bench project is on the to do list....The lathe was used for generator and starter armature turning in the past as well as small bushings, so I guess they didn't care about the flex.
> 
> ...




I appreciate your advice and direction. It is almost like having a shop teacher living next door!:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:


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## wa5cab (Mar 12, 2013)

You're welcome. 

 FWIW, the 6" manual (not the parts list only) in Downloads does include a speed chart applicable to 612, 618, 101.07300, 101.07301 and 101.21400.  A couple of the later 12" manuals include the chart in the Speeds & Feeds file.  None of the few 10" ones that I've seen do.

Robert D.


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