# Need advice on welding thicker metals



## strantor (Jul 1, 2018)

I am a welding novice. I have been welding for years, but I don't do enough welding to maintain proficiency or gather a wide pool of experience. My main welder is an Eastwood TIG200, AC/DC 200A TIG/Stick machine. I also have an old craftsman MIG (125A? I believe) that's pretty much useless for anything outside of sheet metal. I opted for TIG as my main machine because I wanted the cheapest (larger/more capable) machine I could get, that I could also use to weld aluminum. I have done lots of smaller jobs with it and have been happy with it so far.

I had my first experience last week doing a larger job on thicker steel with the TIG, and I am not at all happy with how it went. I made some modifications to a friend's trailer, probably a total of 25 linear feet of weld on 3/16" and 1/4" steel, and it took over 12 hours. The welder has a rated 60% duty cycle, but I empirically discovered that the WP17 torch (or, maybe my hand) has its own duty cycle which is significantly less than that. After 1-2 minutes of welding at anything over 150A, the torch gets too hot to hold with a gloved hand, and takes 10 minutes sitting in front of a shop fan to cool down. Probably only an hour or two of the 12hr job was spent actually welding.

I did a bit of research and I'm still researching, but I thought I would post here for help in addition. One thing that I came across on someone else's post on another forum, was a suggestion to upgrade to an 18 series torch. I don't know much about parts interchangeability with these torches. I went to the Eastwood website looking for a bigger torch, or a water cooled torch, and they do sell some stuff, but they only advertise it as being compatible with their bigger machines. Will any welder that uses a 17 torch, also use an 18 torch? And what is meant by "series?" Is there a specific 18 torch I need? What about a water cooled torch? What would fit my machine?

One thing I did find on the Eastwood website that they guarantee fit, is the stick holder torch for this machine. The specs that Eastwood provides seem only to apply to the TIG process. Very little is said about its stick capabilities. Will stick welding give me better results on a project like I just did? Also as far as stick goes, I would like to know if I can weld even thicker materials with stick, than what the machine is rated for on TIG. I have a project coming up where I will need to weld 1/2" steel, possibly even 3/4"; I am pretty sure I know the answer for that - I'm going to need a bigger welder. But I thought I would ask just in case.

Thank You


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## Canus (Jul 1, 2018)

A 200 amp machine with a 60% duty cycle used in stick mode should have allowed you to finish in a couple of hours max.  Get yourself some stick rods and practice some.  I think you will be pleasantly surprised.


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## Mitch Alsup (Jul 1, 2018)

a) water cooled torch for Tig
b) the job sounds like a Mig/stick job in actuality


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## strantor (Jul 1, 2018)

Mitch Alsup said:


> a) water cooled torch for Tig
> b) the job sounds like a Mig/stick job in actuality


I am about to order the stick holder lead for it. I would also like to order a water cooled torch. Do you know specifically what type/series/model/whatever of water cooled torch will work for a machine that was designed for wp17 torch? And is there some other equipment required to go with it?


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## Mitch Alsup (Jul 1, 2018)

"This Old Tony" did a youtube video recently on this.


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## Asm109 (Jul 1, 2018)

You can switch the wp17 for an HW20 water cooled torch.  You will need a recirculating water cooler. Once you use a water cooled torch you will never want to go back.


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## Tim9 (Jul 2, 2018)

When I think of TIG I always think that TIG is best for precision work. Welding a trailer doesn't fall into precision work. To weld a trailer, I'd definitely use a stick welder. And for 1/4" you'd easily get by with 125-150 amps stick welding.


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## Cooter Brown (Jul 2, 2018)

You have to get the water out first..............(LULZ)



Preheat


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## Richard King 2 (Jul 2, 2018)

On thicker material...grind a V groove so the rod can flow into the metal on both sides I used to move the in a small sweeping motion as I moved it sideways.   I have not wilded a lot of thick stuff on a wirefeed.  I used to have a stick welder.  Loved to weld and see the flux curl up and have that pretty weld.  Also the smoke from the rod really worked good with hangovers the day after...lol


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## SamI (Jul 2, 2018)

Cooter Brown said:


> You have to get the water out first..............(LULZ)
> 
> 
> 
> Preheat




I wouldn't have thought that preheat would be required for this although it certainly wouldn't cause any harm.  

Preheat is important in steels with a higher carbon content or other highly alloyed steels to slow the cooling of the weld pool in an effort to reduce the hardness of the weld / Heat Affected Zone (HAZ).  It does become more critical as the thickness increases but 1/4" steel isn't that thick in the grand scheme of things.

As for water, water is a source of Hydrogen in the weld pool.  In thicker sections or in alloys that are prone to cracking Hydrogen can build up in the weld metal until enough pressure is present to crack the weld and / or the HAZ.  Again, I can’t imagine that this would be a problem in ¼” (presumably) mild steel however if the grade is unknown then preheating could be a good idea.  95°C is often recommended as a minimum for C-Mn steels although as the carbon equivalent creeps up you may need to go higher (i.e. chromoly steels).

Hydrogen cracking can be particularly hazardous because the cracks don’t always appear immediately and a weld that has passed inspection can suddenly fail in service.  Because of this it is worth checking your welds again after 72 hours if the material you are welding is known to be susceptible.


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## Karl_T (Jul 2, 2018)

Yep, most certainly a stick welding job here. you need to practice this first. you're first welds will looks like chicken s&^t and have poor penetration.  Weld two pieces together for two inches then put in a vice and try to break it by bending.

6011 rod gives best penetration especially on rusty poorly prepped metal. hard to get a good looking bead.

6013 has penetration problems, easy to drag and get a nice looking weld. I sometimes root pass with 6011, then weld over it with 6013

A "V" grind is a great idea on 1/4" and thicker.

here's a chart for settings


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## Silverbullet (Jul 2, 2018)

Richard King 2 said:


> On thicker material...grind a V groove so the rod can flow into the metal on both sides I used to move the in a small sweeping motion as I moved it sideways.   I have not wilded a lot of thick stuff on a wirefeed.  I used to have a stick welder.  Loved to weld and see the flux curl up and have that pretty weld.  Also the smoke from the rod really worked good with hangovers the day after...lol


Want a good fix weld some galvanized steel. That stuff will mess YA up even but good if inhaled to long.


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## Silverbullet (Jul 2, 2018)

There right use some 7014 , 7018 , it'll weld good on trailer work , it's good for rusty or dirty welding. Flows good for me , I hate 6010_11 rods seems all they do is stick and drip. Just my preference with my old craftsmen 230 ?? Welder  usually run at 165  with 1/8" rods  185 with 3/16".
I'm no pro but never ever had a weld break , even when rear ended by a car on a hitch haul I built for my power scooter . The metal bent but not one corner or bracing weld cracked or busted. Go old times use stick on jobs like that , really does work better . Grind fillets to be welded up it'll make you look like a pro. With multiple passes 3/4" can be welded successfully.


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## pontiac428 (Jul 2, 2018)

For a gee-whiz welding process on structural steel, you could try pushing FCAW wire through your MIG, using Ar/CO2/O2 mix for a deep penetrating profile.  Set your dials for spray transfer with high amps and high feed.  Does a beautiful job, best in the flat position but okay for all positions.

That said, I'd probably go straight for the stick electrodes as already mentioned above.  That's the rule for heavy structural applications with the high degree of liability that comes with any catastrophic failure involving road equipment.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 2, 2018)

+1 for stick/wire 

Stick is probably best unless the material is pretty clean and rust free.

This is not a TIG job, even with more amperage and water-cooled torch. Not to say it can't be done, you just wouldn't want to.


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## vocatexas (Jul 2, 2018)

I'd find me an old Lincoln tombstone. You can probably find an A/C tombstone for $100 on Craigslist if you keep your eyes open. Quarter inch steel plate could be welded with a 1/8 6011 at about 90 amps without chamfering the plate.

The old tombstones will last for a couple of lifetimes with minimal care. I've got one my dad bought for the farm in the '50s. It needs new leads now, but you can still burn 5/32 7018 with it all day long.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 2, 2018)

vocatexas said:


> I'd find me an old Lincoln tombstone. You can probably find an A/C tombstone for $100 on Craigslist if you keep your eyes open. Quarter inch steel plate could be welded with a 1/8 6011 at about 90 amps without chamfering the plate.
> 
> The old tombstones will last for a couple of lifetimes with minimal care. I've got one my dad bought for the farm in the '50s. It needs new leads now, but you can still burn 5/32 7018 with it all day long.



I paid $50 for mine, a 1974 model in beautiful condition.


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## Mystery2 (Jul 2, 2018)

he already has a welder capable of stick welding , just needs leads .  

I do agree with it being a job for stick  ,  I am a fan if 6011 myself  , easy to use and strike an arc . I don't have an issue with getting nice looking welds  ,   once I practice with a rod and a piece of scrap beforehand anyways .   but if you aren't used to using it  it can be a bit tricky as mentioned but it does penetrate good , good  looking beads or not
 if your machine has high frequency  striking an arc wont be a problem with most rods a home welder will use .

maybe already mentioned  but its a heck of a lot easier to stick weld dc then ac


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## FarmDad (Jul 3, 2018)

Stick weld it .   6010 ( dc only ) or 6011 ( ac or dc )  is a fast freeze rod that is good for minimal prep because they burn through paint, rust , ect well .  If you can prep it well  7018 is the go to rod of " real welders " though it can be a problem on restarts for inexperienced and really needs to be used fresh or stored in a rod oven .  Farmer rod ( 6013 )  is forgiving of technique  and plenty good for most applications  though it does not burn through poorly prepped areas as well as 6010/11.


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## Smithdoor (Jul 3, 2018)

A good MIG welder is best 
Need at less 100 amp 20% duty cycle MIG
If planning on doing a lot welding a 200 amp 60% duty cycle would better but will cost lot more.

Dave 



strantor said:


> I am a welding novice. I have been welding for years, but I don't do enough welding to maintain proficiency or gather a wide pool of experience. My main welder is an Eastwood TIG200, AC/DC 200A TIG/Stick machine. I also have an old craftsman MIG (125A? I believe) that's pretty much useless for anything outside of sheet metal. I opted for TIG as my main machine because I wanted the cheapest (larger/more capable) machine I could get, that I could also use to weld aluminum. I have done lots of smaller jobs with it and have been happy with it so far.
> 
> I had my first experience last week doing a larger job on thicker steel with the TIG, and I am not at all happy with how it went. I made some modifications to a friend's trailer, probably a total of 25 linear feet of weld on 3/16" and 1/4" steel, and it took over 12 hours. The welder has a rated 60% duty cycle, but I empirically discovered that the WP17 torch (or, maybe my hand) has its own duty cycle which is significantly less than that. After 1-2 minutes of welding at anything over 150A, the torch gets too hot to hold with a gloved hand, and takes 10 minutes sitting in front of a shop fan to cool down. Probably only an hour or two of the 12hr job was spent actually welding.
> 
> ...





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk


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## P. Waller (Jul 3, 2018)

What size electrode did you use?


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## NCjeeper (Jul 3, 2018)

junkcollector said:


> he already has a welder capable of stick welding , just needs leads .


Yep. Get you a stinger and DC weld with your machine. 1/8" 7018 rods and machine set at 125 amps. I think Lincoln Excalibers lay in the best and the slag just lifts off.


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## rock_breaker (Jul 4, 2018)

A half,a---d stick welder here but support the 7018 DC. Everything that was said about 6011 and 6013 being difficult is certainly true at my place. My SiL commented on difficulties with 6013, he is a welder from the gold mines in Nevada now retired
Can't recall the exact model but part of my crew had to rebuild impact crusher bars on a weekly basis. The bars were 5 feet long and the work was done with a wooden stick fastened to the stick electrode holder until we bought a Stoody automatic wire feed system. The job became pretty cool even when changing out 250 pound spools of wire feed (flux inside).
Have a good day
Ray


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## Old Mud (Jul 7, 2018)

Ok Stran, as no one has mentioned it yet if you go the stick route go DC reverse with 7018. (What i would do) . 6011 is ok but the 7018 is 10,000 psi. stronger and is much more ductile than the 6011. An important factor for over the road or any trailer. My first choice would be Mig with 70S wire and Argon/Helium 70/30. If for nothing else the speed you can obtain with Mig. It is also much easier to tack and quickly with Mig. Stick will weld as good but take longer and take more practice with out of position, (Vert. and overhead).

  Don


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 7, 2018)

I'd prefer to mig weld most jobs including this one, but your mig machine is a bit light, yes it will do it, but you will probably have to do multi pass and you may have duty cycle issues, but it will do it and will look fairly good. 

With the equipment you have stick would be the best, but you will need to practice up a bit. Use any of the rods the guys have suggested above. I'm no expert on TIG, but love my 175A MIg and stick machine


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## strantor (Jul 12, 2018)

UPDATE:

I've purchased/made (local welding supply didn't have all the right stuff) a stick electrode holder for my TIG machine, and done a couple of odd jobs with 7018. I don't really like it TBH. I'm sure it has everything to do with my lack of skill, but this seems to be more trouble than it's worth. I really want a nice capable MIG welder.  I'm spoiled from the place where I used to work, where I had access to a Millermatic 252. That thing was awesome. I know it would do everything I would ever need. However, lack of funds at the moment will probably force me into proficiency with the stick welder.


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## strantor (Jul 12, 2018)

That being said, there will always be a special place in my heart for the TIG welder. It just justified it's existence again and almost paid for itself for probably the 15th time. 

My shop fan started making a big racket, and upon inspection I see that the Chinese aluminum blades have cracked almost all the way across from fatigue. These blades are less than 1/16 in thick, and I know the welds look like hammered turds, but it's really tough to weld this thin aluminum and I'm only a hobbyist. There is no other welding process that could have "fixed" this, that I am aware of. Hopefully the welds last at least as long as the original b-grade aluminum lasted.


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## Old Mud (Jul 12, 2018)

Stran, with this statement "will probably force me into proficiency with the stick welder. " you will be glad you learned it. If you do enough metal work over time you will see all the different welding processes have their place. I'm surprised you could een weld that Chinese Aluminum.    When your proficient in the different processes it just opens up a whole new thing.


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## strantor (Jul 12, 2018)

Ok I was planning on doing *paid* work today, but in order to do that I need 3ph 480V, so I return to my monster RPC project. It's only half done-up, sitting on a cart, haphazardly wired and pretty much an embarrassment. Sooner or later the customer will be here to witness the panel I'm building, and I don't want this questionably dangerous eyesore to be an example of my work. so instead of getting comfortable using the RPC in this state, I'm going to go ahead and build a skid for it with forklift/pallet jack pockets, and wire it up properly. 

This will be a fair amount of stick welding, and I'm using mostly scrap metal which is painted, rusted, and everything else. I have 7018 and 6011. I should use the 7018, right? Mostly this will be 1/4" and 1/8" steel. What amp settings do you recommend? Do I need to grind off paint/rust? I heard stick just burns through it, so much less prep is required; does that mean *no* prep is required?


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## Old Mud (Jul 12, 2018)

Sorry i'm just seeing this. If you have rusted or painted steel you really should grind the paint and rust. That is on Any welding you do. With just a little rust you could use the 6011. It will weld through rust but is not really the way you should do it. I know some farmers or fishermen may say it dosn't matter but it Does !!.  While that flux is keeping the atmosphere out of the puddle the melting paint and rust will displace what that flux is doing.  As in soldering plumbing or wires, Clean is the key.


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## Old Mud (Jul 12, 2018)

Oh on 1/4" if you use 1/8" wire start about 85 amps and go up from there. All that depends on Clean (no oil or foreign matter). Size of wire (3/32 is better for 1/8" to 1/4" .


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 12, 2018)

strantor said:


> Ok I was planning on doing *paid* work today, but in order to do that I need 3ph 480V, so I return to my monster RPC project. It's only half done-up, sitting on a cart, haphazardly wired and pretty much an embarrassment. Sooner or later the customer will be here to witness the panel I'm building, and I don't want this questionably dangerous eyesore to be an example of my work. so instead of getting comfortable using the RPC in this state, I'm going to go ahead and build a skid for it with forklift/pallet jack pockets, and wire it up properly.
> 
> This will be a fair amount of stick welding, and I'm using mostly scrap metal which is painted, rusted, and everything else. I have 7018 and 6011. I should use the 7018, right? Mostly this will be 1/4" and 1/8" steel. What amp settings do you recommend? Do I need to grind off paint/rust? I heard stick just burns through it, so much less prep is required; does that mean *no* prep is required?
> 
> ...



!/8 to 1/4 steel is ideal for learning / refining your skills with stick welder. Light rust is not really a problem unless you are looking for pressure vessel quality welds, but heavy rust, paint, and especially galvanizing should always be removed before welding.

Sure an experienced welder can weld in these situations, but usually will refuse. Rust will detract from the quality of the weld, Paint will make it hard to strike an arc, and also detract from the weld quality, and may give of toxic fumes depending on the paint. Galvanised steel will be difficult to weld, and give poor results, but most importantly the fumes given off are extremely toxic, so just don't do it.

For your amp settings be guided by the advice on the electrode packet. Also most important is that the electrodes are in good condition and have been kept dry, even atmospheric moisture can be a problem especially in some of the high humidity areas of US. A warm dry place is best for storing them. A metal cabinet with a small light globe placed in the bottom works very well.

Time to bite the bullet, and learn to stick weld, you'll never regret it. Stick TIG and MIG all have their places.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 12, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> . Also most important is that the electrons are in good condition and have been kept dry, even atmospheric moisture can be a problem especially in some of the high humidity areas of US.



I had no idea, I thought electrons were nearly indestructible.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 13, 2018)

MrWhoopee said:


> I had no idea, I thought electrons were nearly indestructible.


Thank you, yes you are quite right electrons are nearly indestructible. I suspect auto spell checker is the culprit here.


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## strantor (Jul 13, 2018)

Yesterday's stick welds were even uglier than those from the day before. I am learning some things though. My ratio of started arcs to stuck rods improved from 1:30 to 1:10.


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## FarmDad (Jul 13, 2018)

Agreed ...  Clean off any paint or rust that you can .  6010/6011 is fairly tolerant of bad surfaces  but that is not a license to weld through paint or heavy rust because you just can't be bothered to prep a joint .   Materials do not need to be tig weldable cleaned up  but you want good shiny steel in your weld area if possible no matter what rod you use .

ETA

If you are really having a hard time sticking rods , and are NOT seeing any undercutting on the edge of the weld you might try turning up the amperage a bit . Sometimes its amazing the difference even 5 amps makes when striking off .  Of course this is not advisable for thin materials  which stick welding pretty much wants to burn through anyway .


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 13, 2018)

Welding is a bit like painting, prep is half the job. what sort of machine are you using, can you adjust the voltage as well as the amps or just the amps. If you can adjust the voltage try increasing the volts. and or amps, what size metal are you welding and what size rods, wire dia, not over the flux. 

Also depending on the rods, some tend to get a glazed over surface on the end and you need to knock or grind that off between welds. Try to strike the rod like a match, don't stab it onto the work.


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## GoceKU (Jul 13, 2018)

I'm currently no welding expert but i'm not afraid to stick two pieces of metal together. Arc welding is still widely used in heavy industry and i prefer it when welding thick pieces, they require less prep and when working outside aren't affected by the wind as much. Best advice i can give for welding thick steel is to chamfer the edges better than trying to burn it in deeper.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 13, 2018)

GoceKU said:


> I'm currently no welding expert but i'm not afraid to stick two pieces of metal together. Arc welding is still widely used in heavy industry and i prefer it when welding thick pieces, they require less prep and when working outside aren't affected by the wind as much. Best advice i can give for welding thick steel is to chamfer the edges better than trying to burn it in deeper.



Welding it's a subject longer than your arm, IMHO a decent mig machine is a hobby oriented man's best friend. when I say decent I mean something with at least 170-180 A capacity and maybe up to 220-230 A if you're doing heavier work like repairing farm machinery, and a reasonable duty cycle.

 I have been asked by many friends to help them use their cheap asian machines. Usually only around 130 A and not well made. These machines are at best barely acceptable. Often displaying poor wire drive mechanism, leaky solenoid gas valves and inconsistent current and wire feed controls. In some cases the importers do not back the machines with parts and service. I now tell them go buy a decent machine first.

Even some of the low powered machines from brand name makers, are so low in power they are really only suitable for very light work.

A decent home MIG machine can comfortably weld up to half inch plate, and even thicker if you're prepared to use multi pass on the rare occasion you need it. They are however excellent for light work sheet metal is so much easier with them than stick. Tig is also excellent at light work and especially aluminium and stainless steel

MIG machines do have their limitations, wind is probably the main problem, they don't like even a slight breeze.

Stick welding comes into it's own in windy conditions, that occasional special purpose job like hard facing and other high tensile applications, very heavy structural jobs, where a variety of rods can be obtained without having to use a special machine. 

My choice is a multi purpose machine 175 A and able to run MIG, stick and TIG, I do occasionally use it for stick welding when the need arises, but have not yet ventured into Tig with it, as I don't have the need. 90% of my needs are covered with MIG and I have welded 1/4 plate to 5/8 plate without any difficulty.


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## Guyton (Jul 13, 2018)

From my experience 6011 rod is more tolerant of trash, 7018 need clean surfaces.. But, I totally agree with post above, proper preparation is the key.


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## strantor (Jul 13, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> Welding is a bit like painting, prep is half the job. what sort of machine are you using, can you adjust the voltage as well as the amps or just the amps. If you can adjust the voltage try increasing the volts. and or amps, what size metal are you welding and what size rods, wire dia, not over the flux.
> 
> Also depending on the rods, some tend to get a glazed over surface on the end and you need to knock or grind that off between welds. Try to strike the rod like a match, don't stab it onto the work.



My welder is an Eastwood TIG200. It doesn't have voltage adjustment, just amps. I am running 140A, what I think is close to the higher limit of the 1/8" 7018 rods I'm using. I found it works better on the DC setting, but I need to verify if I'm welding electrode positive or negative; I just watched a video that said that matters. I am welding 1/8 flat bar to 4" channel which is about 1/4 thick or more in spots.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 14, 2018)

Not familiar with that machine, but the general recommendation for those rods is DC+ 90 to 130 A. Are you sure they are clean and dry, how old are they, and how have they been stored. I suspect you might live in a high humidity area, so if the pack has been open for more than a few days, you might want to try drying them. 

7018 rods and others in the same class can be prone to humidity problems and are difficult, if not impossible to dry correctly. storing rods for hobby use is very important because a pack may be expected to last for years. Once a new pack is opened remove the rods you need seal it up again in a new plastic bag preferably with some activated desiccant in there. if you have a vacuum sealing device use it.

Unless you are doing specific structural welding you should avoid specialised rods. talk to your local welding supplies people and get a recommendation for a wide range general purpose rod. that is pretty forgiving.


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## brino (Jul 14, 2018)

strantor said:


> I am welding 1/8 flat bar to 4" channel which is about 1/4 thick or more in spots.



As you make your C-shaped or zig-zag pass, dwell a little longer on the thicker piece. It needs more heat than the thin piece.
-brino


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## strantor (Jul 14, 2018)

brino said:


> As you make your C-shaped or zig-zag pass, dwell a little longer on the thicker piece. It needs more heat than the thin piece.
> -brino


I am used to doing those kinds of motions with MIG and TIG, and started doing them with stick, and it seemed like my puddle was getting way too big, full of inclusions, and I was burning too much rod. I went back to YouTube and watched some more stick welding tutorials; they don't do any motion with the stick. They just drag it in a straight line. So I stopped trying to do any motions and drag it straight, controlling which material I burn in more, with the angle of the stick. I can't get it just right yet, so I'm still doing some motions.


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## strantor (Jul 14, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> Not familiar with that machine, but the general recommendation for those rods is DC+ 90 to 130 A. Are you sure they are clean and dry, how old are they, and how have they been stored. I suspect you might live in a high humidity area, so if the pack has been open for more than a few days, you might want to try drying them.
> 
> 7018 rods and others in the same class can be prone to humidity problems and are difficult, if not impossible to dry correctly. storing rods for hobby use is very important because a pack may be expected to last for years. Once a new pack is opened remove the rods you need seal it up again in a new plastic bag preferably with some activated desiccant in there. if you have a vacuum sealing device use it.
> 
> Unless you are doing specific structural welding you should avoid specialised rods. talk to your local welding supplies people and get a recommendation for a wide range general purpose rod. that is pretty forgiving.


My rods were bought new and opened on the day I bought the stick holder, which has been nearly a week now. I removed a few rods and closed the box back. Each day after that, I open the box, remove a few rods, close it back, weld. I figured as long as keep the box open just long enough to remove rods and immediately close it back, they should stay ok. But that's probably just wishful thinking. It's so humid here that I may as well have just poured water in the box the first day I opened it. I need to make a rod oven. It's on the to do list.


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## GoceKU (Jul 14, 2018)

strantor said:


> It's so humid here that I may as well have just poured water in the box the first day I opened it. I need to make a rod oven. It's on the to do list.


If you are planning on welding nuclear reactors then yes everything needs to be perfect, but for the home shop, just don't worry about it, i've welded with soaking wet electrodes onboard boat in a storm, without any porosity and it still holds, just keep them in a box on a shelf and don't worry about them.


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## Old Mud (Jul 14, 2018)

Yes you should know your polarity, and yes it matters.  Electrode-positive (reversed *polarity*) results in deeper penetration. Electrode-negative (straight *polarity*) results in faster melt-off of the electrode and, therefore, faster deposition rate. . 7018 likes reverse polarity, especially out of position as in Vertical or overhead. Try it you'll see the difference.  You will have to change the heat though when you switch back and forth.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 14, 2018)

GoceKU said:


> If you are planning on welding nuclear reactors then yes everything needs to be perfect, but for the home shop, just don't worry about it, i've welded with soaking wet electrodes onboard boat in a storm, without any porosity and it still holds, just keep them in a box on a shelf and don't worry about them.



This is true for 6010/6011, a little moisture does not affect them seriously.  7018 is a different matter.

*"Storing Low Hydrogen Stick Electrodes*
Low hydrogen stick electrodes must be dry to perform properly. Unopened Lincoln hermetically sealed containers provide excellent protection in good storage conditions. Opened cans should be stored in a cabinet at 250 to 300°F (120 to 150°C)
Low hydrogen stick electrode coatings that have picked up moisture may result in hydrogen induced cracking, particularly in steels with a yield strength of 80,000 psi (550 MPa) and higher.
Moisture resistant electrodes with an "R" suffix in their AWS classification have a high resistance to moisture pickup coating and, if properly stored, will be less susceptible to this problem, regardless of the yield strength of the steel being welded. Specific code requirements may indicate exposure limits different from these guidelines.
All low hydrogen stick electrodes should be stored properly, even those with an "R" suffix. Standard EXX18 electrodes should be supplied to welders twice per shift. Moisture resistant types may be exposed for up to 9 hours.
When containers are punctured or opened, low hydrogen electrodes may pick up moisture. Depending upon the amount of moisture, it will damage weld quality in the following ways:
1. A greater amount of moisture in low hydrogen electrodes may cause porosity. Detection of this condition requires x-ray inspection or destructive testing. If the base metal or weld metal exceeds 80,000 psi (550 MPa) yield strength, this moisture may contribute to under-bead or weld cracking.
2. A relatively high amount of moisture in low hydrogen electrodes causes visible external porosity in addition to internal porosity. It also may cause excessive slag fluidity, a rough weld surface, difficult slag removal, and cracking.
3. Severe moisture pickup can cause weld cracks in addition to under-bead cracking, severe porosity, poor appearance and slag problems.

*Storing and Redrying Non-Low Hydrogen Electrodes*
Electrodes in unopened Lincoln cans or cartons retain the proper moisture content indefinitely when stored in good condition.
If exposed to humid air for long periods of time, stick electrodes from opened containers may pick up enough moisture to affect operating characteristics or weld quality. If moisture appears to be a problem, store electrodes from the opened containers in heated cabinets at 100 to 120°F (40 to 50°C). DO NOT use higher temperatures, particularly for electrodes from the "Fast Freeze" group.
Some electrodes from wet containers or long exposure to high humidity can be re-dried."

https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/pages/storing-electrodes-detail.aspx

I was given a bundle of assorted rods when I bought my Lincoln AC225. Don't know how long they had been stored in the open. The 309 stainless rods were fine. The flux was falling off the 7018. Humidity in California is generally quite low.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 16, 2018)

GoceKU said:


> If you are planning on welding nuclear reactors then yes everything needs to be perfect, but for the home shop, just don't worry about it, i've welded with soaking wet electrodes onboard boat in a storm, without any porosity and it still holds, just keep them in a box on a shelf and don't worry about them.



Yes some electrodes are pretty tolerant of moisture, others are not in particular the ones he was using. I also have welded on board ship in heavy weather while up the mast and being subjected to salt water spray, it was a horrific job, but had to be done.  Not recommended for beginners. 

My fave rod for general purpose and very forgiving is satin craft 13.


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## GoceKU (Jul 16, 2018)

No job is fun under pressure and bad weather conditions, i was in freshwater and can't remember if i used 6013 or 7018 electrodes, but managed to hummer out the deep gash on the hole shut and weld it at the last moments as one engine was already underwalter the other was half way the engine block it was one of those moment do you bail or keep working and save the boat.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 17, 2018)

GoceKU said:


> No job is fun under pressure and bad weather conditions, i was in freshwater and can't remember if i used 6013 or 7018 electrodes, but managed to hummer out the deep gash on the hole shut and weld it at the last moments as one engine was already underwalter the other was half way the engine block it was one of those moment do you bail or keep working and save the boat.





GoceKU said:


> No job is fun under pressure and bad weather conditions, i was in freshwater and can't remember if i used 6013 or 7018 electrodes, but managed to hummer out the deep gash on the hole shut and weld it at the last moments as one engine was already underwalter the other was half way the engine block it was one of those moment do you bail or keep working and save the boat.



You did well, you save the boat. Like you, I can't remember what rods I was using, and I wasn't quite saving the ship, although it did prevent further damage.

 A Marine Engineer will always do his best to save the ship. History records the Titanic went down with all lights on and all pumps going, not one engineer got out. to this day, by royal decree, all British commonwealth marine engineers wear royal purple alongside their gold bars on their rank insignia.


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## GoceKU (Jul 17, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> A Marine Engineer will always do his best to save the ship.



I'm no marine engineer and that was my 5th time on a friends boat in my life, we ware doing repairs. And when the storm roll in we took the boat in deeper water to stop it getting crashed again the harbor, the inexperienced captain on the other boat, the one i saved left the harbor too late and bottomed out the boat and opened a gash in the engine room. When we heard the mayday we aproced it with in minutes and could see he was half way sank. I full of adrenaline jump over, couple of the crow members were trying to put t shirts in the hole and in all the panic i've seen a hummer on the floor grabbed it and started hammering the metal shut. Next thing i remember i heard one engine die, looked around there was no one around and was thinking do i get out or try to weld this. Then i seen the lead from the welder and box of electrodes in the water, grab it and started laying welds, hummering welding when i stop the leak and got out i was the only one on the boat, the captain and crew abandoned ship and were circling me when i shouted leak is fixed in macedonian, my friend pulled parallel and the captain come back over and had to jump because the boat was so low in the water. I stayed till the storm pass which was quick and pulled in to port, and sayed goodbye. Next day we heard the captain was arrested by coast guard for endangering the craw, and not sure what happened from there on, noone ask for a statement or nothing else.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 18, 2018)

You could have claims salvage rights, they had all abandoned ship you were the only one left and you saved it. Not sure how it works in inland waters, may vary in different countries, but at sea if the crew abandons ship anyone who salvages it can claim salvage rights, generally about half the value of the vessel and its cargo, but can rise to the full value. Did you have previous experience at underwater welding. or salvage work.


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## GoceKU (Jul 18, 2018)

Downunder Bob said:


> Did you have previous experience at underwater welding. or salvage work.



Here in Macedonia we have only couple of lakes and no exit to sea, so boats are not popular in fact that was only my fifth time on the water and i've been maybe 3 time more sense than. I've never done any salvage work but when my instincts kick in i was doing what come naturally to me, the gash was more to the side probably caused by the harbor so it was partly under water by the end. Here waterways were not really regulated that much until about a year or two pass that when a tourist ship turn over and there were couple fatalities. I don't care about salvage rights, in fact i didn't even go a thank you from the captain, couple of the crew members thanked me, even one recognizes me last year and bought me a drink, and said that the boat changed hand couple of times since then but my repair still holds.


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## Downunder Bob (Jul 18, 2018)

A sterling effort, all the more so for someone not qualified. Do you realise that you could have claimed salvage rights on the vessel. At least in the open sea you could have I'm not sure about the law on inland waters, and some countries will vary, but at sea if the crew has abandoned ship whoever saves the vessel has full salvage rights, and that means you can claim anything from 50% to 100% of the value of the vessel and its cargo. You may recall that all pictures of the Titanic show it going down with all lights on. The Engineers, to a man, stayed with it to the end and kept the pumps going and the lights on. As a result, to this day, all British commonwealth Marine Engineers proudly wear a royal purple strip alongside their gold badges of rank. It's not just the captain who goes down with the ship.


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