# How do Taiwanese machines compared to old American ones?



## Pcmaker (Nov 19, 2020)

I've been reading how much better the Taiwanese machinery are compared to the Chinese ones, but how do they compare to old American machines? I'm in the process of buying a knee mill and I'm leaning towards the PM835, which has a Taiwanese head. On Craigslist, I've been seeing bridgeports going for about the same price, but they look heavily used.

This is a big purchase for me, so I gotta ask all the questions I have in mind before taking the plunge.


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## graham-xrf (Nov 19, 2020)

(I think) all the Precision Matthews products are Taiwanese.
There is no question that some Chinese kit is very good, but there is also no question that that stuff is among a big set ranging through to relative junk. Older American machines start out as quality, and heavily built. In time, they get worn, and the cost of restoring them to decent capability competes or exceeds new foreign purchase. Us who would fix them up do end up with quality again, but it is because we like them, and it's a hobby.

Maybe HM members know whether other Taiwanese kit risks being real junk? I don't know, but PM is definitely pretty good!
For me, it's a bit of a downer, because to own a Precision Matthews anything, I have to let it import to USA, ship to East Coast, then private export again to UK, land it, pay import duty, shipping, and then a new shipping cost overland.

Here in UK, we have to ask the very same questions you have about Taiwan and China, but as this time applied to Poland, Germany, Czech Republic, and various others between France and Ukraine.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 19, 2020)

Most PM stuff are made in China. Their higher end stuff are Taiwanese made, but come at a higher price range.


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## projectnut (Nov 19, 2020)

I would rate the equipment I have (3 drill presses) that's been made in Taiwan as a slight step down from American Iron, but certainly adequate for a hobbyist.  One machine is a 1980's Jet JDP125VS-3.  It's a floor standing model with a 3 phase 2 speed 2 hp motor, and infinite variable speed.  It weighs a little over 750 lbs., and is supposedly able to drill a 1 1/4" hole in mild steel.  Personally I've never tried to drill a hole that large with it.  It actually came out of a company machine shop that was closed down.  It's a good machine for light industrial or fabrication.  I don't think I would want to use it in a high production environment.  I would put it a couple steps above a Clausing 2277, one step above a 2286, but not even in the same league as a Cincinnati Bickford, Carlton, or Fosdick.

The other 2 drill presses are lower end ones sold by a local farm store in the 1980's.  They're adequate for a hobbyist, but I doubt they would hold up well in a production situation. More in line with a Delta Rockwell, or Powermatic.


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## hman (Nov 20, 2020)

I just bought a new PM-835S.  As you'd noted, the head is Taiwanese, the base Chinese.  VERY smooth running motor and spindle.  All axes move nicely.  I had them install a DRO before shipment and I'm very happy with that as well.  My biggest gripe was the height of the mill.  I ended up making a work platform ~11" tall, and got a power drawbar soon after receiving the mill.  The drawbar is spendy, but pretty easy to install yourself (as is the X axis power feed).  Feel free to ask any questions you have!

NOTE - The actual travels may be a bit different than those listed on the web page or in the current manual.  Both the DRO and the X power feed reduce the available movements a bit.  Actual measured travels on my mill:  X21.73", Y(Table)9.43",Y(Ram)15.4", Z(Knee)17.92, Z(Quill)5.0"  
The head nod on my mill is something like ±45º, rather than the ±5º listed.  I asked PM Tech Support about these differences, and they said their suppliers sometimes change specs (generally for the better!)  They're currently rewriting the manual to reflect the latest specs.

PS - Post #51 in this thread describes how I got the mill off the shipping pallet and into the shop:








						Base Feet for a Bridgeport
					

Randy  That was almost 5 years ago, and I can't really remember what I did yesterday. LOL  My mill is a Taiwan made clone of a Bridgeport, may even be made in the same factory that made the later models, but the supplier is one that deals only with industry, they do not have anything there that...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				



And here's a thread on how I've replaced the fixed speed motor with a variable speed, driven by a VFD.  The lead photo shows the platform I built.








						Converting a knee mill to 3phase/VFD
					

I've recently bought a Precision Matthews PM-835S.  Advertised as a "small" knee mill, it's still amazingly massive - and TALL.  I've had to build a platform to stand on (re-using some of the the 2x4s and OSB the mill was crated with), just to be able to reach some of the controls and levers...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## ttabbal (Nov 20, 2020)

You identified the biggest problem with used old iron. Wear. These are usually machines that were used in industry, run near 24/7 in some shops. Probably often not maintained very well. Particularly larger (for us) common machines like Bridgeports. Most of us don't have the space or power for the truly large machines.  

For Bridgeport, you can still get parts, which is a huge plus. But fixing worn ways is beyond most of us. If you can identify worn ways, you can find good deals on them though. But you also have to be willing to tear it down and fix any broken bits. It's super common for people to use grease guns on them, as the oil fittings look like zerks. I had to strip it down, clean all the grease out, and fix a few broken things on mine. Not that hard really, but time consuming. Particularly fishing all the grease out of the oil passages. 

A new machine, particularly a nice one from Taiwan or US, is going to be mostly ready to go out of the box and will outlive most any hobbyist if you keep it lubricated. Chinese tend to be decent, but perhaps more of a kit you have to put together. It depends a lot on the reseller, some of them spec better machines than others, but that costs more which is why some imports look very similar but have very different performance.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 20, 2020)

hman said:


> I just bought a new PM-835S.  As you'd noted, the head is Taiwanese, the base Chinese.  VERY smooth running motor and spindle.  All axes move nicely.  I had them install a DRO before shipment and I'm very happy with that as well.  My biggest gripe was the height of the mill.  I ended up making a work platform ~11" tall, and got a power drawbar soon after receiving the mill.  The drawbar is spendy, but pretty easy to install yourself (as is the X axis power feed).  Feel free to ask any questions you have!
> 
> NOTE - The actual travels may be a bit different than those listed on the web page or in the current manual.  Both the DRO and the X power feed reduce the available movements a bit.  Actual measured travels on my mill:  X21.73", Y(Table)9.43",Y(Ram)15.4", Z(Knee)17.92, Z(Quill)5.0"
> The head nod on my mill is something like ±45º, rather than the ±5º listed.  I asked PM Tech Support about these differences, and they said their suppliers sometimes change specs (generally for the better!)  They're currently rewriting the manual to reflect the latest specs.
> ...



Did it come with the DRO installed? There's only one option with the 835. 

I'm also getting the power drawbar right off the bat, so, so I won't have any issues with the height. I also hate bending over, so I got the z axis power feed installed as well as X.


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## tjb (Nov 20, 2020)

Personal opinion:  Been there, done that.  When I first got into the hobby, I bought used machinery and was constantly working on it and dealing with inaccuracies due to wear.  I upgraded to more expensive used on both a mill and a lathe.  On the mill, I got very lucky.  I found a Vectrax made in Taiwan that was ten years old but only used one year by a hobbyist, then stored indoors for the next nine.  It's like new - for about half the price.  On the lathe, I bought a second one that turned out to be worse than the one I already had.  Then I bought a third with a no-questions-asked money back guarantee.  It was represented as 'shop ready'.  A nice looking unit, but when I got it home, it was anything but 'shop ready'.  Fortunately, I was dealing with an ethical company.  I took it back; they agreed; and gave me a full refund.  That's when I decided it's time to bite the bullet and buy a new one.  I bought an Eisen 13 x 40 made in Taiwan.  Couldn't be more pleased.  It's a great machine, and I actually spend nearly a hundred percent of my time in the shop 'using' the equipment instead of 'working' on it.  In retrospect, I think I would have bought new out of the chute on both a mill and a lathe. Admittedly, I learned a lot about operating the machines by working on them, but it's a hobby.  It's nice to know when I go down to the shop, I've got equipment down there that I know works as it's supposed to.  That's worth a few bucks to me.

Regards,
Terry


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 20, 2020)

30 years ago Taiwanese machines were like the Chinese made machine.  I hate to brag, but the Taiwanese machine builders hired me in the late 1980's to teach them how to build machines the right way.  Over the years I have taught over 2 years worth of time, teaching alignment, scraping, lubrication, etc.  I would say the machine started to improve in the early 1990's and today many are better then the Japanese made machines.  I would not be afraid buying Taiwanese machines.   You have to ask any new machine seller "where the machine was made.  Many buy Chinese machines too. I think I read that PM buys some machines in China.   I recall when Japanese machines were called Junk...  As the others have said American iron is aged, but worn out.  That is why I teach machine rebuilding here in the USA.  You can look at my forum at the top of the forum where I write about my classes.

Below are the awards I was given by the Taiwanese machine builders   Also one I received in Austria


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## NC Rick (Nov 20, 2020)

I have a few Taiwanese machines, a 4x6 Delta H. Saw made in the late 80s amd a floor drill press that is also Delta from that era.  They have served me well and continue to do so.  They were built to Delta spect a d are inch, not metric (I'm a metric fan boi...). It is because of these, I purchased a Grizzly band saw also made in a factory in Taiwan.  It is great with the exception of the slot in the table for the fence.  Even my second table from them while better is still outside of any reasonable tolerance IMO.  Rest of the machine?  Great value and I'm happy with the purchase.  As you guys know, I recently repaired an old W-T made in the USA drill press from the 1930s, I love it but it was a value machine back in the day and manufacturing processes have advanced radically.  The machining of all three Taiwanese machines far out shines the "old time" value stuff.  We should all strive to produce better.  The Swiss and the Germans have done better than us at keeping the demand for really good stuff going.  We all vote with our dollars and unfortunately seem to often seek the least expensive options.  Buying good new American stuff would support this goal while buying old machines doesn't.  Unfortunately I can't afford to do that often but I do when I can.


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## NC Rick (Nov 20, 2020)

Of anyone in the world who would know, @Richard King 2 is The Man!  I have a 1970s genuine Bridgeport which is a pride and joy. it is in really good shape but still,  How I would like for him to go through it!


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## Richard King 2 (Nov 20, 2020)

We are organizing a TN class for February.  Join and I can get you started as did Marco V, one of my students  worked on his Wells Index I just taught last week.   Also a student brought the compound off a Mori Seiki lathe.


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## ttabbal (Nov 20, 2020)

As much as I would love to buy quality American, the various businesses have been playing so many games around what, exactly, "Made in the USA" means, that I can't trust most of them. It's gotten to where it feels like they import from China, put one US made bolt in, and slap the sticker on it. They also change sources without changing model numbers, so you can have great reviews for a product, get one yourself, and it's junk for the same price the good ones were. 

Hopefully I can get time and money to attend one of those classes. Maybe I could learn to make better gear and fix up older gear.


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## Aaron_W (Nov 20, 2020)

tjb said:


> Personal opinion:  Been there, done that.  When I first got into the hobby, I bought used machinery and was constantly working on it and dealing with inaccuracies due to wear.  I upgraded to more expensive used on both a mill and a lathe.  On the mill, I got very lucky.  I found a Vectrax made in Taiwan that was ten years old but only used one year by a hobbyist, then stored indoors for the next nine.  It's like new - for about half the price.  On the lathe, I bought a second one that turned out to be worse than the one I already had.  Then I bought a third with a no-questions-asked money back guarantee.  It was represented as 'shop ready'.  A nice looking unit, but when I got it home, it was anything but 'shop ready'.  Fortunately, I was dealing with an ethical company.  I took it back; they agreed; and gave me a full refund.  That's when I decided it's time to bite the bullet and buy a new one.  I bought an Eisen 13 x 40 made in Taiwan.  Couldn't be more pleased.  It's a great machine, and I actually spend nearly a hundred percent of my time in the shop 'using' the equipment instead of 'working' on it.  In retrospect, I think I would have bought new out of the chute on both a mill and a lathe. Admittedly, I learned a lot about operating the machines by working on them, but it's a hobby.  It's nice to know when I go down to the shop, I've got equipment down there that I know works as it's supposed to.  That's worth a few bucks to me.
> 
> Regards,
> Terry



You don't directly say it, but size of the machine and use matters. Smaller "hobby size" machines were often used in small shops, schools or even home shops where they saw an easier life than an industrial machine cranking off part after part 24/7. On the other hand they were often built well, but lighter since they were not expected to have that heavy duty cycle. Thinking about machines like Southbend, Logan, Atlas, Rockwell, Clausing, Burke etc in the 8-12" size lathes as well as the small mills, drill presses etc in the same market segment.

This smaller machine market also seems to be where the early imports really started to make an impact. There is a book "When the machine stopped" that is about Hoodaille and the companies that it gobbled up (Logan, Powermatic, Burke among others), and things really started coming apart in the early 80s for them as the Japanese and then Taiwanese started to out compete them. The US Machine tool companies response was largely to walk away from the smaller, less expensive machines to focus on specialized machines for heavy industry. A lot of these early imports are well regarded now, although still not as well known as the US made machines, and many have very Asian names, Shenwai, Liang Wai, Rong Fu etc which just doesn't roll off the tongue or stick in the brain like Southbend does. 

Not at all limited to machine tools, look at stereo equipment, sewing machines, automobiles and you see a similar progression. US dominance, then slowly cheap imports started to nibble at the corners, and then pretty soon the "cheap" crap was "good stuff". Tell somebody in 1968 that in 50 years Toyota (Lexus), Honda (Acura) Datsun / Nissan (Infiniti) and Volkswagen would be some of the leading premium brands in the US auto market and they would think you were nuts.


Anyway I think with a question like this one has to look deeper than just old USA iron vs import, and also consider what market segment they are looking at. Is the "old iron" you are comparing something common like an 8"-10" Logan, Southbend or Atlas, something smallish but high end like a Hardinge HLV or Monarch 10EE or something bigger like a 15" Clausing Colchester, or a 19" LeBlond? It makes a difference.


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## hman (Nov 20, 2020)

Pcmaker said:


> Did it come with the DRO installed? There's only one option with the 835.


You're right, it's not optional - part of the mill "package"!  I stand corrected.  DRO was nicely installed on mine.


Pcmaker said:


> I'm also getting the power drawbar right off the bat, so, so I won't have any issues with the height. I also hate bending over, so I got the z axis power feed installed as well as X.


Regarding the Z axis power feed - there are several posts on the subject at https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/z-axis-knee-power-feed-recomendations.56729/
@mksj has one on theAlign power feed (post #11)
I posted about a "quickie" drill motor adapter (post #17), and it's worked very well for my needs.

The X axis power feed was a piece of cake to install, so I saved $99.  The Y and Z require limit switch and switch activator installation, so either one would be more complex (and thus $199 each for installation).  No installation service for the power drawbar, but again, it's a piece of cake.  Comes with a very good set of PM specific instructions from the manufacturer.  Do feel free to ask any specific questions you might have.


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## Pcmaker (Nov 20, 2020)

hman said:


> You're right, it's not optional - part of the mill "package"!  I stand corrected.  DRO was nicely installed on mine.
> 
> Regarding the Z axis power feed - there are several posts on the subject at https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/z-axis-knee-power-feed-recomendations.56729/
> @mksj has one on theAlign power feed (post #11)
> ...



yeah I use my drill to move the head up and down on my PM25MV. it sure beats cranking it 2 million times


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## tjb (Nov 21, 2020)

tjb said:


> Eisen 13 x 40 made in Taiwan


Oops!  Typo in my post #8.  It's a 14 x 40 - not 13 x 40.


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## projectnut (Nov 21, 2020)

Personally I think the "sweet spot" for quality manual machines built in the US was the mid 1950's thru the mid 1980's.  By the mid to late 50's most  American manufacturers catering to the industrial sector had changed from plain bearings (bushings) in the headstocks to roller or ball bearings.  The higher end machines had either double row or double sets of single row bearings in each end of the headstock. This allowed greater spindle speeds along with more rigidity and longevity.

This was also the time when they began hardening the ways on the beds, improving they types of motors ( from open frame to TEFC), and drive systems.  Now that the war was over there was no ready market for everything they could make so there was fierce competition between the manufacturers to maintain or gain market share.  The only way they could do this was to offer a better, faster, more accurate, longer lasting machine than their competition. 

By the mid 1980's the industrial market was looking for something even faster to gain an edge over the competition.  NC machines had made a mark, but required different skills than the traditional machinist.  Even though they were faster than manual machines, because of the multiple skill sets needed to program and run them they often needed more man hours to operate.  The reduction in cost per part produced wasn't sufficient to justify the higher cost for the machines, and the labor to run them.   The industry was now turning to CNC machines, and the technical schools were changing the focus of their training programs to include both programing and operating the new generation of machines.

Manufacturers being focused on the industrial sector as their main market relegated manual machines to a smaller a secondary market.  They were now used mainly by prototype shops, small fabrication shops, and schools.  Since they were now a minor part of their production efforts there was little incentive to dedicate sources to improve them.  In fact the focus became how to reduce the cost of production of a diminishing segment of their business. 

This is where the foreign manufacturers began to take over the manual machine market.  While their products in general weren't the same quality as their American counterparts they weren't marketing to the same audience.  A small to medium fabrication or production couldn't afford the latest CNC offerings, and didn't need to run their machines 24/7.  The imports became an affordable alternative.


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