# PC or Apple ?



## JPigg55 (Jul 10, 2014)

I'm wondering if there's any difference between using a PC or Apple computer for running CAD/CAM software ?
Will programs run on either or are they specific ?
Any opinions on which is better ?


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## schor (Jul 10, 2014)

JPigg55 said:


> I'm wondering if there's any difference between using a PC or Apple computer for running CAD/CAM software ?
> Will programs run on either or are they specific ?
> Any opinions on which is better ?



Really? You asked that question on a forum? This is going to be a $%*& storm. :rofl:

In all seriousness, find the software you like and then find a platform that can let you work well with the software.


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## John Hasler (Jul 10, 2014)

JPigg55 said:


> I'm wondering if there's any difference between using a PC or Apple computer for running CAD/CAM software ?
> Will programs run on either or are they specific ?
> Any opinions on which is better ?



The software must be compiled for the OS it is to run on.  Some vendors may offer their software compiled for one OS, some for another, others for more than one.

There are, of course, many strong opinions as to which OS is better.  There is really no point in discussing that here.


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## Andre (Jul 10, 2014)

I'd go with windows. (ducks flying pots and pans)

They are cheaper, easier to work on, and if you don't use it for internet no chance of malware/viruses. I  hope DonB will chime in, he knows more about computers than most of us.


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## Ray C (Jul 10, 2014)

John Hasler said:


> The software must be compiled for the OS it is to run on.  Some vendors may offer their software compiled for one OS, some for another, others for more than one.
> 
> There are, of course, many strong opinions as to which OS is better.  There is really no point in discussing that here.



Agree totally with John.  Just visit the websites of you candidate software and see if they have versions that run on the computer your most familiar with.  If you already have an Apple computer, you can also get "virtual machine" software that can run windows on an Apple and thus you can run any windows program.  The virtual machine software works pretty well actually.

Ray


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## schor (Jul 10, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Agree totally with John.  Just visit the websites of you candidate software and see if they have versions that run on the computer your most familiar with.  If you already have an Apple computer, you can also get "virtual machine" software that can run windows on an Apple and thus you can run any windows program.  The virtual machine software works pretty well actually.
> 
> Ray



Oh man, I am starting the $%^* storm now. 

VM's are good but if you need high performing software vm's can really hinder you. You want to find the right software for you and then pick the platform you deploy on.


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## dave2176 (Jul 10, 2014)

1. Do you have the machine that you want to run the software on? If so, find suitable software for that platform. 
2. If no machine, do you have a budget?  CAD/CAM is resource intense and I can build a more powerful Windows machine for far less money than I can buy an Apple for. Take a look at the Intel NUC barebones at Newegg for example. Spending less on a capable computer would leave more budget for application software. 

I live in a physical/virtual computer world for my day job and I will always stay away from virtualizing my hobby machines. I do dual boot between Windows and Linux as needed though.  I guess if I get an itch for OSx I can always stick FreeBSD on a virtual machine in my development environment and pretend I have an Apple. 

Dave


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 11, 2014)

I want to try LinuxCNC which is working with a realtime kernel (more or less like the Korg Oasys synthesizers) and doesn't require many resources, so I can run it on some old PC.
But of course what I miss is a 9 axes CNC machine… I don't even have a 1 axis one :biggrin:
On the CAM side (converting drawings to G-code) there is an interesting project under development: http://www.openscam.org/


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## sinebar (Jul 11, 2014)

I agree with the thought that what is best depends on what you already have and what you want to do. In my work setting, I use a PC running Windows 7 and MastercamX7 and then send the Gcode to Haas  controllers. At home, I have a Mac and run Windows XP on a VM so I can use AutoCAD for drawing and dimensioning and I use Inkscape to convert some drawings to toolpaths for simple engraving (there's a plugin to convert paths to gcode) and down in my shop, I have another PC running LinuxCNC connected to a Sherline 2000 mill and the whole mess does what I need, but then, I am pretty much a computer geek. The only other suggestion I can add is to use open source freeware/shareware whenever you can because most of it is good and in a state of constant improvement.


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## SEK_22Hornet (Jul 11, 2014)

By all means, if you are already a computer user, stick with the platform that you are most familiar with! No need to aggravate the learning curve by having to learn the new OS as well as the software. I believe that you will find more CAD/CAM software choices for the PC than the MAC. Just a side note - if you consider BobCAD / CAM, you can sometimes pick up an older version on ebay reasonably priced. Be aware that it WILL cost $100 to transfer the license on top of what you pay for the software. However, once a registered owner of one of their products, you are eligible for upgrade pricing, which the do price very aggressively - we we recently offered an upgrade to the latest version with their training cd's for $395, normally $1495 for the software and $995 for the training cd's. Do not take this as an endorsement of BobCAD / CAM - it is just information.


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## f350ca (Jul 11, 2014)

When Apple switched to intel processors you can run either operating system. I've never found CAD software that I liked that ran on MAC but since I've switched to Apple I've never had a virus. 
You can boot the machine in either MAC or Microsoft or run Microsoft virtually in the MAC domain. 
I reboot in Microsoft to use my drafting software but don't have and internet connection set up. No Viruses. For surfing and general computer work boot up in MAC and surf away.
The 27 inch screen on an iMac is pretty easy on the eyes when your drafting.
Greg


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## David Kirtley (Jul 11, 2014)

If you are using real commercial CAD and CAM software, the price of the computer to run it on is pretty inconsequential at current prices regardless of the operating system unless you are going for the highest end of the spectrum. Current lower end PCs and Macs in the $500-$1000 range are pretty good on all counts and will be more than enough for a casual (or even price conscious professional) user. If you are going to set up a monster CAD system, the video card and monitor will cost quite a bit more than the computer. Then you get into the digitizing tablets and such. If you plan on sitting in front of a professional quality CAD/CAM station, you can hit the $10K mark without breaking a sweat or even getting into the really cool stuff.

Now, are you going to use the same machine for CNC control? If you are, then Apple OSX is not going to be the first choice as I am not aware of any CNC control that runs on it. The only option I am aware of for using a Mac for CNC control is with systems with embedded controllers that you just send the G-Code. Mac computers are also not going to be able to use parallel port type controllers. PC computers may not come with them any more but you can get a parallel port card to add one to it. Laptops not so much but laptops are pretty grim for CAD/CAM work anyway. You want lots of screen real estate for that.

As others have said before, choose the program you want to use first. If it is available on only one platform, then you have no choice anyway. If it is available on multiple platforms, then it will really just amount to which one you like better.


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## Ray C (Jul 11, 2014)

f350ca said:


> When Apple switched to intel processors you can run either operating system. I've never found CAD software that I liked that ran on MAC but since I've switched to Apple I've never had a virus.
> You can boot the machine in either MAC or Microsoft or run Microsoft virtually in the MAC domain.
> I reboot in Microsoft to use my drafting software but don't have and internet connection set up. No Viruses. For surfing and general computer work boot up in MAC and surf away.
> The 27 inch screen on an iMac is pretty easy on the eyes when your drafting.
> Greg




Greg raised a good point about the size of the monitor.  I agree, get the biggest monitor you can.   My current main machine is a fairly high-end HP workstation laptop that has a dedicated graphics card.  I run full-blown industrial CAD applications (Alibre/Geomagic), BobCAD-CAM, and QuickBooks accounting software simultaneously.  I also run MathCAD and LabView and that will push the computer over the edge.  It's an Intel i5 and I had to upgrade to a solid state drive and 16GB of RAM to run all this.  It keeps-up the three main applications just fine but, a 15.4" laptop monitor is not big enough for the CAD and sometimes CAM work.  I plug into an external 22" monitor and that helps.  Sometime soon, I'd like to get a dedicated "desktop type" computer with dual monitors for the CAD/CAM system for the times when I roll-up my shirt sleeves and really dig in.

FYI:   My Mach 3 controller is a dedicated box based on an Intel DN2800MT motherboard with a dual-core Atom processor, 4GB memory and 120GB solid state drive.  It runs Mach 3 with ease.


Ray


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## Ian Bee (Jul 11, 2014)

As a die hard Apple customer, since the Apple 11c, and have never owned a PC, I would say...

PC.

Apple supplies 5 % of the markets, which gives you a pretty good indication of available software for your needs.

Yes, Apple is cool, and is easy to use, but you don't need that, you want something that works out of the box, simple.

Cheers

Ian


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 11, 2014)

Ray C said:


> Greg raised a good point about the size of the monitor.  I agree, get the biggest monitor you can.



Not just the biggest, but the one with the most pixels!
There are mammoth TV screens which don't go over a painfully 1280×720 (HD 720p) resolution, with pixels the size of a Lego brick.
A 30" with a resolution of 2560×1600 can be found for around $1000, which is reasonable if you consider the zooming/panning time you can save.
The price increase, however, is not linear with the resolution: the Barco 21.3", 2800×2096, is priced over $10,000 by Dell.
Currently I'm using a 3200×1080 desktop, split between a 22" wide monitor at 1920×1080 and an old 17" at 1280×1024. There is a step in the lines, specially at the bottom of the screens, but I'm used to deal with that… and generally I keep drawings or images on the 22" and menus, toolbars, etc. on the 17".
The window manager I use allows multiple desktops, and I have 9 of them in a 3×3 array, so if I want I can enlarge a single window up to 9600×3240 pixels, but it becomes a bit hard to work in that way…


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## pdentrem (Jul 11, 2014)

If you do not go the 27" Apple route with dual boot, then build your own machine. The reason I mention this is when you purchase a pre built machine by one of the big vendors ie HP, Dell etc, they do not use a generic version of Windows! It is tailered for their hardware and this is to discourage people from opening their boxes and changing things. Later down the road you may wish or require to upgrade some of the hardware, having a regular version of Windows will remove much of the issues that come with replacement hardware. Been there done that. Quite recently at work and at a friends place as well.
My current PC at home, is Ubuntu 12.04 first, dual boot Win 7 when I need Autocad or some photo software, and a big beautiful screen. At work I have an older Win XP system with AutoCad 2000 and CNC operating system with a 24" screen.The higher the native resolution that better. 

I have the biggest screen in the shop, much to the displeasure of the shop foreman! :victory:

There is a running betting line on when he will request a new screen for himself! lol
Pierre


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## JPigg55 (Jul 11, 2014)

Didn't mean to start a S%*t storm, I don't currently own a CNC machine, but would like to eventually.
I've always had a PC, but have lately considered switching to an Apple. Getting really tired of the garbage Microsoft keeps pumping out.
I currently have a 5+ year old Dell running Vista. At work, they just upgraded to Windows 7. I've also heard Windows 8 is a nightmare for a desktop since it was designed for cell phones and tablets.
Any new computers seem to be loaded with a bunch of crap which runs in the background slowing everything down and I'm not computer savy enough to be able to disable it.
When it comes time, I've considered having a computer built for and dedicated to just running whichever CAD/CAM software I decide on.


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 12, 2014)

pdentrem said:


> If you do not go the 27" Apple route with dual boot, then build your own machine. The reason I mention this is when you purchase a pre built machine by one of the big vendors ie HP, Dell etc, they do not use a generic version of Windows! It is tailered for their hardware and this is to discourage people from opening their boxes and changing things



Many years ago, before the "invention" of AJAX, it happened to me to write a Perl program using common web pages as interface, so it can run on its own small Linux server (the "server" was just a 486 recovered from the attic, without any screen or keyboard!) and every computer on the LAN could access it without the need of supplemental software installation.
The interface used standard http headers to activate all the functions of the program, but there was one of the connected computers giving odd results with every browser I used.
 I analyzed the traffic coming out from that machine (I don't remember if it was a Compaq, HP, Dell or some other high end brand) and I discovered it was merrily sending out custom http headers containing a bunch of data, like machine serial number and so on, for an alleged "maintenance report". But it was sending those info to every web server in the world!!!
Think to a CNC machine adding by itself your own cell phone number to every piece it machined… would you be happy of that?
Since then, I always suggest homemade computers, even if a bit more expensive.


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## cvairwerks (Jul 12, 2014)

JP: I got forced into buying a new laptop to run the diagnostics software for a couple of my cars (VCDS for you VW/Audit/Skoda et al guys). It had Win8 on it and I had an instant dislike for it on boot up. Without touch screen capability, it's a disaster in my opinion. The solution was to download and run ClassicShell. It sets things up to look like the front end from Win3 to Win7. Easy install and for me makes things run with much less aggrivation.


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 12, 2014)

Always about the program I descrived above… it was for a friend who is growing sweet basil and had just the need to print bills and to gather results from them.
We started in the '90 with a FoxPro database, and it ran perfectly on a single 486.
When Fox Software was bought by Microsoft, we try to convert the database to the less expensive Access, but it was a resource hog, five times slower than the older database.
Also, my friend moved from basic farming to "basil mashing", to supply some pesto sauce local makers with a product converted just a few hours after picking (sweet basil oxidize quickly and become dark when mashed, so the fast you work it the better is the result).
Did you ever see a sweet basil field? Here is one, almost ready to be picked:




While my friend was improving his "picking machine" to make it faster (he is mechanically skilled, too) I made that Perl+MySql program told before, to keep trace of everything, even things not required by law but useful for a farmer (including the weather and temperature when the basil was picked). I even add a PDF generator for bills, which automatically send them via e-mail too.
At that point the procedure went beyond an hobbyist phase, and I passed it to another friend who has a small software house.
The last "hack" I made was pretty hardware based: my friend bought a Zebra high-speed printer to label his sauce buckets, but it had just Windows drivers.
Being a serial printer, I "sniffed" the signals sent by Windows and wrote a very simple C program sending to the printer signals in the same format, but taking all the data from my database (my version made fancy drawings, too :biggrin rather than having to compile every label set by hand.
The printer salesman was pretty impressed by that… but he told me the most of their income was from computer assistance (machines "tuned" by the usual know-it-all "computer genius" using the same PC for both working and keeping viruses on the net) so they prefer to keep their printers just under the most lucrative Windows…


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## stupoty (Jul 12, 2014)

Marco Bernardini said:


> I want to try LinuxCNC which is working with a realtime kernel (more or less like the Korg Oasys synthesizers) and doesn't require many resources, so I can run it on some old PC.
> But of course what I miss is a 9 axes CNC machine… I don't even have a 1 axis one :biggrin:
> On the CAM side (converting drawings to G-code) there is an interesting project under development: http://www.openscam.org/




That looks interesting , 
I run an emc2 rt linux system for developing and play, theirs a live cd of it so you may find you could run that on a mac or a pc , same architecture same parts same sh*t (varying build quality).

as for power required for cnc does anyone have a good grasp of this as i run on a 1ghz via c3 and have never felt cpu power to be holding me back.

its in a micro atx form factor (did i remember the abriviation, 17cm square mobo).  Very handy for space saveing.

although its a bit bigger than my brothers mini mac.

stuart


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## pdentrem (Jul 12, 2014)

I used a mini-itx board to make my first PVR. It used Mythdora, a customized Fedora and MythTV package. I could record 3 channels at once and have DVD quality play back and burn to disc if I wanted to. I should upgrade it to OTA HD but I have not as of yet.

The reason I mentioned this, is that the little netbooks / webbooks are quite capable of running a CNC machine for not much cost. Their motherboards are populated with the same components as the mini/nano/pico-itx boards that are available today. They can run Windows or Linux based CNC packages. Obviously not good enough to run a full blown Autocad without a seperate screen but a screen is in the budget anyways.
Pierre


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 12, 2014)

pdentrem said:


> I used a mini-itx board to make my first PVR. It used Mythdora, a customized Fedora and MythTV package. I could record 3 channels at once and have DVD quality play back and burn to disc if I wanted to. I should upgrade it to OTA HD but I have not as of yet.
> 
> The reason I mentioned this, is that the little netbooks / webbooks are quite capable of running a CNC machine for not much cost. Their motherboards are populated with the same components as the mini/nano/pico-itx boards that are available today. They can run Windows or Linux based CNC packages. Obviously not good enough to run a full blown Autocad without a seperate screen but a screen is in the budget anyways.
> Pierre



Currently there is even no need of a motherboard, with computers of this size: http://www.digi.com/products/wirele...olutions-on-module/digi-connect/digiconnectme
Into a crowded shop, anyway, I suggest to avoid WiFi connections with these small devices: in the worst case you can follow the CAT5 cable to find them
:roflmao:


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## John Hasler (Jul 12, 2014)

Marco Bernardini said:


> Currently there is even no need of a motherboard, with computers of this size: http://www.digi.com/products/wirele...olutions-on-module/digi-connect/digiconnectme
> Into a crowded shop, anyway, I suggest to avoid WiFi connections with these small devices: in the worst case you can follow the CAT5 cable to find them
> :roflmao:



Or a $35 Rasberry Pi: http://www.raspberrypi.org/products/


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## dave2176 (Jul 12, 2014)

JPigg55 said:


> Didn't mean to start a S%*t storm, I don't currently own a CNC machine, but would like to eventually.
> I've always had a PC, but have lately considered switching to an Apple. Getting really tired of the garbage Microsoft keeps pumping out.
> I currently have a 5+ year old Dell running Vista. At work, they just upgraded to Windows 7. I've also heard Windows 8 is a nightmare for a desktop since it was designed for cell phones and tablets.
> Any new computers seem to be loaded with a bunch of crap which runs in the background slowing everything down and I'm not computer savy enough to be able to disable it.
> When it comes time, I've considered having a computer built for and dedicated to just running whichever CAD/CAM software I decide on.



I'm running Windows 8.1 on two PCs without touch and a Surface tablet which of course has touch. There was a bit of curve getting used to it but it didn't last long. I'm not going back or jumping ship. I also have a newer PC running Windows 7 with an SSD and more memory but it can't transcode video as fast as the Windows 8.1 machine. The weird user interface aside Windows 8 is a superior operating system. My CNC platform dual boots LinuxCNC and Windows XP but I hope to upgrade it when Mach 4 is released generally.

Somebody mentioned viruses, but in the 2+ decades I've been running Windows I haven't caught one. My machines are patched regularly and security software configured to update daily. I don't have Java or Flash installed which accounts for 73% of the Windows vulnerabilities though those usually exist on other platforms as well. I also don't surf questionable websites which I'm sure means I missed some great cat videos. :rofl:

Dave


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## David Kirtley (Jul 12, 2014)

John Hasler said:


> Or a $35 Rasberry Pi: http://www.raspberrypi.org/products/



Although we are getting away from the original topic of a computer for CAD/CAM and into machine control...

I never have really figured out where the Pi fits into things. By the time you buy one and a flash card, you are up to the price of a min-itx that you can put real memory on and have real storage options. It doesn't have the I/O capabilities of an Arduino or the like for embedded stuff and a lot higher overhead of having a real operating system on it. For portability, a little android tablet has a lot more to offer by economy of scale in terms of battery life, storage, connectivity, and display.

Not knocking the low CPU powered solutions. It is just silly to try to do machine control with a general purpose OS. The controllers that they are putting on the 3D printers are awesome and not much more is needed for even high performance solutions.


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## DMS (Jul 12, 2014)

By PC I am assuming you mean "Microsoft Windows"?

I am not a Windows fan by any means, and I feel even less fuzzy about Apple. I tend to do whatever I can on Linux. When I got started with CNC, I tried my hardest to remain "pure" and run everything on Linux, but at some point (after much frustration) I came to the realization that I was not helping myself. Now I have a windows setup for running CAD/CAM and GWizard (as well as gaming), but most of my daily use is on Linux. My machine controller uses LinuxCNC, which I am quite happy with.

Regarding the MAC vs PC question, I am guessing you are already a MAC owner/user. Unfortunately most software for mechanical design is Windows only. Now, you can either buy a separate machine to run your CAD/CAM software on, you can run Bootcamp (to run windows on your mac), or you can go with a VM (Virtual Machine). I would not use a VM for running a machine controller like Mach, but for running CAM it should be fine as long as you have enough RAM. If it is an older machine, try it out, but if you don't have enough ram, you may be frustrated very quickly. I found dual booting frustrating, as I got "stuck" in the last environment I was working in. 

I am currently running an older version Alibre/AlibreCAM. I like the CAD more than I like the CAM. You can get free trials for most CAD/CAM software (usually 30days, or limited in file size), so I would recommend trying a few out. If you have a MAC already, install bootcamp or some virtual machine, and see how the software runs.

Keep in mind that you can pick up an inexpensive Windows laptop for pretty cheap, and it will run most cam software just fine.


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## Ray C (Jul 12, 2014)

Well, we're all doing great and not arguing.  Good job.

FWIW, if anyone is interested, I had tremendous success using this virtual machine software from Oracle:  https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/VirtualBox  We used it in our test labs -probably installed on 50 machines and it was probably the best "freeware" product I've ever used (in my opinion).  

All this discussion of PCs has prompted me to visit tigerdirect and put together a new desktop.  I think I've selected a bunch of good  (but not bleeding-edge) components (not going to mention them until the proof is in the pudding) for $1400 bucks.  This is an entire machine and monitor built-up from scratch. I haven't built a machine in over 5 years and had to brush-up on all the latest processors and socket types.   Good heaven's I think Moore's law has finally faded away.  The processors, memory and bus speeds available today are not five-fold faster than from 5 years ago.  Graphics cards have improved quite a bit though but, I'm not into "gaming" and even sophisticated CAD/CAM does not need the graphics capability that some of those interactive games require.

I did go with a large touch-screen monitor -not because I want to but as a fail-safe in case we get forced to use Win 8.  .

As far as operating systems are concerned.  Like a lot of you, I'm not crazy about any of the current selections -and I'm familiar with them all.  Truth be told, the last OS I really liked was SunOS 3.something which later turned into Solaris when Sun Microsystems split themselves into a hardware and software division.  In my opinion... what I did and the ease in which I did it on those systems from the mid 80's still cannot be done on any currently popular OS.  

Currently, all the OS's have good & bad points so you pick the one(s) you hate the least, use them -and grin and bear it.  

Ray


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## kevinpg (Jul 12, 2014)

JPigg55 said:


> I'm wondering if there's any difference between using a PC or Apple computer for running CAD/CAM software ?
> Will programs run on either or are they specific ?
> Any opinions on which is better ?


rqrrrr





JPigg55 said:


> I'm wondering if there's any difference between using a PC or Apple computer for running CAD/CAM software ?
> Will programs run on either or are they specific ?
> Any opinions on which is better ?


the first response was probably the best. find  the app you like and get their recommended platform. that said, i supported the cad department at a large energy company and it was all pc based autocad, mapping, rendering, modeling stuff.

if you are going to do anything beyond hobby, you will need a serious GPU (video card) and that will put you in windows/ pc or linux.  

i have laptops with windows, linux, a macbook pro, and a few tablets.

my absolute best advice would be to build the best PC platform you can, max ram and a very good gpu. then i would install windows, either on it's own partition on the hard drive and install Mac OS on another partition and make it multi boot. better yet, i would install free ESX and the create a PC virtual machine, a mac virtual machine, and a linux virtual machine. then you can use any of the Operating systems , either singly or all at the same time.

doing that, you can try free cad in any flavor or even full versions. it is so easy these days, hardly makes sense to limit your options.

Kevin


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## TOOLMASTER (Jul 12, 2014)

APPLE


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## David Kirtley (Jul 12, 2014)

Do you really even want or need full fledged CAD?  Simple things like Sketchup and Inkscape fill my needs quite well. Personally, I only do design work for my own use and entertainment and don't have to worry about compatibility or being able to take on more people to pick up and finish design work. If you are planning real commercial work, you are better served by the full fledged products. For home hobby work, they are pricey. For a business, they are pretty cheap and pay for themselves many times over.

Think really hard on how much and where you are going to go with CAM/CAM. It is a pretty big investment to learn one system well (far beyond the initial pricing or licensing of even the pricey commercial systems when you consider the hours it takes). Are you going to be designing parts for yourself or are you going to be doing commercial work where you have to exchange a lot of parts with other people? Are you going to be doing mostly straight 3 axis stuff? Full 3D or 2.5D (mostly 2 axis with pocketing) Do you foresee a need for multi axis?  Are you going to be looking for things like unfoldable models to make things flat that will later be formed up with a press brake? Do you need other modules for things like Finite Analysis? Again as before, are you going to take on work where you might have to get more help and not have to train people to use some oddball software?


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## Ray C (Jul 12, 2014)

David Kirtley said:


> Do you really even want or need full fledged CAD?  Simple things like Sketchup and Inkscape fill my needs quite well. Personally, I only do design work for my own use and entertainment and don't have to worry about compatibility or being able to take on more people to pick up and finish design work. If you are planning real commercial work, you are better served by the full fledged products. For home hobby work, they are pricey. For a business, they are pretty cheap and pay for themselves many times over.
> 
> Think really hard on how much and where you are going to go with CAM/CAM. It is a pretty big investment to learn one system well (far beyond the initial pricing or licensing of even the pricey commercial systems when you consider the hours it takes). Are you going to be designing parts for yourself or are you going to be doing commercial work where you have to exchange a lot of parts with other people? Are you going to be doing mostly straight 3 axis stuff? Full 3D or 2.5D (mostly 2 axis with pocketing) Do you foresee a need for multi axis?  Are you going to be looking for things like unfoldable models to make things flat that will later be formed up with a press brake? Do you need other modules for things like Finite Analysis? Again as before, are you going to take on work where you might have to get more help and not have to train people to use some oddball software?



Good words of wisdom and insight there David!  Most folks do not need "Bleeding Edge" software and hardware.  I mentioned sometime earlier that my current laptop (Win 7 with an i5 processor and a bunch of RAM) serves me perfectly well and I do run some sophisticated programs.  It works perfectly well.

On the matter of software, specifically CAD and CAM, there are what's commonly called "Primary" and "Secondary" applications.  For example, Alibre/Geomagic Expert or SolidWorks are "Primary" CAD programs because they have all the bells and whistles such as BOM creation, sheet metal, 2D, assembly creation, motion analysis, stress analysis, shading, real-life rendition etc.  Those are features needed for CAD modeling, engineering and manufacturing because it can create all the artifacts needed to support a reliable/verifiable engineering process.  Similarly, BobCAD or MasterCAM are "Primary" CAM programs because their main focus it to help a user generate tool paths and corresponding G-code.  It does indeed have CAD capabilities but it's only good for working on one part at a time and not very good at working on a system of parts that must fit together.  Therefore, it is a "Secondary" CAD program.

Do note, the method of CAD development among the two programs is different...  Long story short, some hobbyist types might be well served with a CAM program that has some CAD ability -and there are many out there to consider.

Also, the "Primary" systems (be they CAD or CAM) aren't cheap.  Typical costs are $1500 to $3000 (can go much higher) and most have licensing fees of 10% per year.  I consider myself somewhat adept in the realm of computers and programming and for both CAD and CAM, each took a solid couple months of really rolling-up my shirt sleeves and digging in to start doing useful/predictable work.  My current learning curve is "less painful" now but still steep.  I do enjoy it and the situation has reached the point that it's time for me to consider an additional and dedicated HW platform for all my applications.  I do have offsite backups but if the laptop suddenly dies, I will be hurt'n until it's replaced -and thus, this need arises.

Ray


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## dave2176 (Jul 13, 2014)

Windows 8 has the full hypervisor included with it that is available for free as a stand alone product from Microsft. Windows  8 includes the management components to make it easier than the command line powershell option in the standalone product.

Dave


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## Marco Bernardini (Jul 13, 2014)

David Kirtley said:


> Do you really even want or need full fledged CAD?  Simple things like Sketchup and Inkscape fill my needs quite well. Personally, I only do design work for my own use and entertainment and don't have to worry about compatibility or being able to take on more people to pick up and finish design work.



Inkscape is great to convert a photo into a machinable path (hint: take photos of your grandchildren and mill them on aluminum: granny will be happy and will complain less when you'll buy new endmills :biggrin.

Other GPL (i.e., "free") multiplatform (Win - Mac - Linux) CADs which worth a test are *LibreCAD* - http://librecad.org/ - and *OpenSCAD* - http://openscad.org -
LibreCAD is 2D, and it's very similar to the old 2D Autocad, so the learning curve for who has some experience is almost straight. An introduction video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53DOEKzL2rw

OpenSCAD is 3D and "non-interactive": if you have to create an object you must "describe" it  with a syntax like «cube([100,200,20])» rather than simply dragging the mouse. It seems odd, but I find it faster when I know the size of the piece I have to work and where to place holes etc., because I'm used to think from the start in "dimensions" rather than in "images". There are many ready libraries of objects (gears, etc.) which are very useful, and the source is plain text (this means I can send a "drawing" even with a plain SMS message :biggrin: ). A gallery is here: http://www.openscad.org/gallery.html and a video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq5ObNeiAUw

Another one I still have to test is *BRL-CAD* - http://brlcad.org - which «For more than 20 years, BRL-CAD has been the primary tri-service solid modeling CAD system used by the U.S. military to model weapons systems for vulnerability and lethality analyses.  […] BRL-CAD has been under active development with a portability heritage that includes systems such as a DEC VAX-11/780 running 4.3 BSD; DECStations running ULTRIX; Silicon Graphics 3030, 4D "IRIS", O2, Onyx, and Origin systems running various versions of IRIX; Sun Microsystems Sun-3 and Sun-4 Sparcs running SunOS; the Cray 1, Cray X-MP, Cray Y-MP, and Cray 2 running UNICOS; DEC Alpha AXP running OSF/1; Apple Macintosh II running A/UX; iPSC/860 Hypercube running NX/2; the Alliant FX/8, FX/80, and FX/2800; Gould/Encore SEL PowerNode6000/9000 and NP1; NeXT workstations; IBM RS/6000; HPPA 9000/700 running HPUX; Ardent/Stardent; Encore Multi-Max; and much more.» (the latter just in case you have a spare Cray-1 in your basement :lmao.
BTW, the initial author of BRL-CAD, Mike Muuss, is the guy who in 1983 invented the "ping" command.




Ray C said:


> Good words of wisdom and insight there David!  Most folks do not need "Bleeding Edge" software and hardware.



Ray, how many guys do you know who have a cracked PhotoShop because "it's the one used by skilled pros so if I use it I become skilled as a pro too" while they are not even able to resize/rotate a photo made with the phone?
:roflmao:


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## David Kirtley (Jul 13, 2014)

Another "free" one is Design Spark Mechanical. It is a design tool put out by Allied Electronics with "helpful links" to their own products in the components but from what I have played with, it seems quite nice.


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