# What is the affordable alternative to this?



## DFWKen (Mar 8, 2017)

I'm going to need a 5c collet chuck for my new South Bend Heavy 13 that is due to arrive in the next 3 or 4 weeks.  I've  browsed and studied the entire Internet.  Still wondering.  
*
What is the affordable alternative for a hobbyist  for THIS?  *


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## mikey (Mar 8, 2017)

A 5c adapter to fit your lathe spindle, used with a draw bar. Next would be the same, but lever-actuated. Next would be a 5c chuck, then the Atlas type you linked to. 

Another option is to forgo 5c and use ER collets, which is a much better option in my opinion. If you can find or make a direct mount ER collet chuck then it is more flexible and economic to go with the ER system because a full set of ER collets is much cheaper than a full set of 5c collets. Granted, you won't have the ability to use hex or square collets like the 5c system but then again, you have 3 and 4 jaw chucks. 

Some guys really like the 5c system, especially when you have a lot of parts to make from a consistent diameter stock for which you have a collet of the proper size. In a hobby shop, lots of stuff is made from stock or scrap that may not be nominal sized, which is why an ER system is more flexible. Because an ER collet grabs along is entire inner surface, I also think an ER collet is more accurate than a 5c that grabs with only the front 1/2" or so of the collet. 

I have both - a 5c system and an ER system for my lathes and I use the ER far more often. Just an opinion.


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## seasicksteve (Mar 8, 2017)

What spindle does your Southbend have?


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## kd4gij (Mar 8, 2017)

A 6" vise is overkill for a RF45 style mill. A 4" is more appropiate for that size mill & IMO 5" max. I have a 5" GMT vise on my PM45 & it's slightly too big. Not enough Y axis travel to make use of the 5" full capacity. Better to save your money rather than getting something too big & most importantly the weight. I take my vise of the table quite often, a 6" is still light enough for me to be carried by hand but I'm glad I have a 5". I also have a 4" vise as well. I prefer the 5" though.

But those GMT 6" Premium vises are pretty nice. I'd love to have one but don't need one on my current mill. But if you plan on upgrading to a full size knee mill in the future than the 6" will be perfect.


Here's what the 5" looks like on my mill.




I couldn't even complete this cut without my bellows & DRO scale getting in the way. Not enough Y travel & the 5" vise is not even maxed out.




Here's what a 6" vise looks like on another PM45 (gt40's)
View attachment 253544


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## cathead (Mar 8, 2017)

You can use a four or six sided collet block in the lathe chuck and fashion a draw bar to fit your lathe.  I did one step
cheaper and machined a round collet block that I keep in the lathe.  Basically there is little cost involved and it is
very accurate.  You do need a through hole on the lathe at least as big as the inside diameter of the collet though. 
I used a thin wall pipe for the draw bar so I can hold stock at least two feet long.  My draw bar uses the inside
threads on the 5c collet so that eliminates using the collet stops.  I don't use them anyway.  It has worked very
well for me for smaller diameter work up to 1.125 inch.  I hold the collet block in a 4 jaw independant chuck so one can
set it up to run true.  My total materials expense was under twenty dollars.


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## DFWKen (Mar 8, 2017)

seasicksteve said:


> What spindle does your Southbend have?


The manual says it's a D-1 type and the chucks have D-5 mounting.  (it's nice that Grizzly puts the full manual on line so I can  study before  the lathe arrives).


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## DFWKen (Mar 8, 2017)

mikey said:


> A 5c adapter to fit your lathe spindle, used with a draw bar. Next would be the same, but lever-actuated. Next would be a 5c chuck, then the Atlas type you linked to.
> 
> Another option is to forgo 5c and use ER collets, which is a much better option in my opinion. If you can find or make a direct mount ER collet chuck then it is more flexible and economic to go with the ER system because a full set of ER collets is much cheaper than a full set of 5c collets. Granted, you won't have the ability to use hex or square collets like the 5c system but then again, you have 3 and 4 jaw chucks.
> 
> ...



I suppose I can fabricate some kind of a draw bar.  Fabricating things . . . . that's what we do, right?   I haven't had any experience with ER collets and will learn what they are.  They sound more applicable than 5C if they hold the workpiece along more of its length.  
 The commercial draw bar accessories are too expensive for me at this time.   I'm breaking the bank to buy the lathe.   (sold my Bridgeport mill, will sell my 12 x 36  lathe, and some other stuff).


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## ScrapMetal (Mar 8, 2017)

A 6" vise is overkill for a RF45 style mill. A 4" is more appropiate for that size mill & IMO 5" max. I have a 5" GMT vise on my PM45 & it's slightly too big. Not enough Y axis travel to make use of the 5" full capacity. Better to save your money rather than getting something too big & most importantly the weight. I take my vise of the table quite often, a 6" is still light enough for me to be carried by hand but I'm glad I have a 5". I also have a 4" vise as well. I prefer the 5" though.

But those GMT 6" Premium vises are pretty nice. I'd love to have one but don't need one on my current mill. But if you plan on upgrading to a full size knee mill in the future than the 6" will be perfect.


Here's what the 5" looks like on my mill.




I couldn't even complete this cut without my bellows & DRO scale getting in the way. Not enough Y travel & the 5" vise is not even maxed out.




Here's what a 6" vise looks like on another PM45 (gt40's)
View attachment 253544


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## Uglydog (Mar 8, 2017)

You can purchase the draw tube hardened and threaded.
All you need is a spindle taper which holds a 5c and a handle on the opposite end.
Also recommend a thread protection nut...

Daryl
MN


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## wlburton (Mar 8, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> You can purchase the draw tube hardened and threaded.
> All you need is a spindle taper which holds a 5c and a handle on the opposite end.
> Also recommend a thread protection nut...
> 
> ...


Daryl--
Where can you get the threaded, hardened draw tube?  I have a lever action collet closer for my South Bend 10L which came with it, but it's quite worn inside.  I think it must have been used extensively without lubrication in its former life because the original ball bearings in the collet "locking-in" mechanism had lots of flat spots and the parts they touched seem to be badly scored.  I replaced the ball bearings a long time ago, but while the closer works somewhat it slips sometimes (doesn't stay "cammed over")--and I had thought about switching to the wheel-type closer if I could find or make one.
Bill


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## Uglydog (Mar 8, 2017)

Check Ebay.
Search on "5c draw bar".
Lots of options.

How long do you need the draw bar?
I've got one I'm not using, as she's to short for my Colchester. I've been thinking I might build an extension of some sort. But I have other alternatives.
But if it fit yours as is, then we could work something out. 

Daryl
MN


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## wlburton (Mar 8, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> Check Ebay.
> Search on "5c draw bar".
> Lots of options.
> 
> ...


Daryl--
It seems to be about twelve inches from the threaded end to where it emerges from the spindle, maybe a little more when the collet is loose.
Bill


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## ch2co (Mar 9, 2017)

I got may used lathe with a lot of extras, on of which is a 5C collet chuck and a nice box of 5C collets. The chuck screws onto the spindle and the 
collets are inserted and a standard chuck key turns the chuck innards to screw the chuck closed. It takes quite a few turns of the chuck key which is kind of a 
nuisance. The 5C collets don't hold even slightly off sized material. My set of collets is runs from 1/16 to 1-1/8" in 1/16 in intervals but if you are trying
to hole something that is 1/32 bigger or smaller it won't hold worth a darn. I really would like to get a nice set of ER45 or 50? collets and and chuck.
For free the the 5C setup is OK but I wouldn't want to pay for one.  Just my thoughts.


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## darkzero (Mar 9, 2017)

ch2co said:


> The 5C collets don't hold even slightly off sized material. My set of collets is runs from 1/16 to 1-1/8" in 1/16 in intervals but if you are trying
> to hole something that is 1/32 bigger or smaller it won't hold worth a darn. I really would like to get a nice set of ER45 or 50? collets and and chuck.
> For free the the 5C setup is OK but I wouldn't want to pay for one.  Just my thoughts.



That was exactly my thoughts as well. 5C collets seemed to be the norm for work holding & I thought about getting a 5C collet closer. But I didn't want to start a set from scratch. I use ER40 for tool holding on my mill so it made more sense for me to just stick with ER40 for work holding in the lathe.

Although ER collets weren't designed for workholding, it seemed to become popular in the hobbyist world. So I went with a ER40 chuck for my lathe & I'm happy. But one advantage that 5C has is they can hold very short pieces. But you can work around that for ER.

There's no ER45 that I'm aware of but there is ER50. However they don't seem to be as popular & not all the sizes are readily available. ER40 maxs out at 1". ER50 max is just over 1.25".

If I had to start over, I would go with TG150 collets. Very similar to ER collets but they go up to 1.5". Again designed for tool holding and not as popular for work holding so you'd have to make your own chucks & accessories from scratch.


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## mikey (Mar 9, 2017)

DFWKen said:


> I suppose I can fabricate some kind of a draw bar.  Fabricating things . . . . that's what we do, right?   I haven't had any experience with ER collets and will learn what they are.  They sound more applicable than 5C if they hold the workpiece along more of its length.
> The commercial draw bar accessories are too expensive for me at this time.   I'm breaking the bank to buy the lathe.   (sold my Bridgeport mill, will sell my 12 x 36  lathe, and some other stuff).



A lot of these chucks and things are relatively expensive. If you have 5c collets already, you can make an MT adapter to fit the spindle and take 5c collets. You can also make the drawbar for not too much money - its just a thin-walled pipe with internal threads to fit the external threads of a 5c collet on one end and a round handle on the other.

If you don't already have 5c collets then look into and consider an ER-chuck. As Will said, an ER-50 goes to larger sizes but the collets are dear. An ER-40 chuck would be the most practical; beyond 1" OD, go with your 3 or 4 jaw chuck. 

I don't know anyone who makes a D1-5 direct mount ER-40 chuck. One of the guys, DDickey, is adapting a D1-5 back plate to a reasonably priced ER-40 chuck but I'm not sure where he is with it. Hopefully, he'll give us an update on it here. A direct mount ER chuck would be ideal as it allows stock to pass through the spindle. There are ER chucks with a MT mount but they don't allow you to pass stock through them.

Take your time and so some homework. You can get along quite well with a 3 jaw scroll chuck and a 4 jaw independent chuck. You do not NEED a collet system on the lathe.


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## darkzero (Mar 9, 2017)

A 6" vise is overkill for a RF45 style mill. A 4" is more appropiate for that size mill & IMO 5" max. I have a 5" GMT vise on my PM45 & it's slightly too big. Not enough Y axis travel to make use of the 5" full capacity. Better to save your money rather than getting something too big & most importantly the weight. I take my vise of the table quite often, a 6" is still light enough for me to be carried by hand but I'm glad I have a 5". I also have a 4" vise as well. I prefer the 5" though.

But those GMT 6" Premium vises are pretty nice. I'd love to have one but don't need one on my current mill. But if you plan on upgrading to a full size knee mill in the future than the 6" will be perfect.


Here's what the 5" looks like on my mill.




I couldn't even complete this cut without my bellows & DRO scale getting in the way. Not enough Y travel & the 5" vise is not even maxed out.




Here's what a 6" vise looks like on another PM45 (gt40's)
View attachment 253544


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## mikey (Mar 9, 2017)

darkzero said:


> Between my 2 Set-Tru chucks & my 4-jaw indy,_ accuracy is not a problem for me, or should I say runout_.



Glad you cleared that up, Will ... I was going to call UlmaDoctor and ask him to bring his Uber-micron-O-meter DTI to your house to check up on you!


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## darkzero (Mar 9, 2017)

A 6" vise is overkill for a RF45 style mill. A 4" is more appropiate for that size mill & IMO 5" max. I have a 5" GMT vise on my PM45 & it's slightly too big. Not enough Y axis travel to make use of the 5" full capacity. Better to save your money rather than getting something too big & most importantly the weight. I take my vise of the table quite often, a 6" is still light enough for me to be carried by hand but I'm glad I have a 5". I also have a 4" vise as well. I prefer the 5" though.

But those GMT 6" Premium vises are pretty nice. I'd love to have one but don't need one on my current mill. But if you plan on upgrading to a full size knee mill in the future than the 6" will be perfect.


Here's what the 5" looks like on my mill.




I couldn't even complete this cut without my bellows & DRO scale getting in the way. Not enough Y travel & the 5" vise is not even maxed out.




Here's what a 6" vise looks like on another PM45 (gt40's)
View attachment 253544


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## mikey (Mar 9, 2017)

Will, I know it is not right to covet but you make it really, really hard not to do that!


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## Uglydog (Mar 9, 2017)

wlburton said:


> Daryl--
> It seems to be about twelve inches from the threaded end to where it emerges from the spindle, maybe a little more when the collet is loose.
> Bill



This one is maybe 18inches long. About 6inches to short for my use as is.
Any interest in cutting it off? Would come with the handle.
Do you need the spindle nose?
I think this is MT6.

Daryl
MN


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## DFWKen (Mar 13, 2017)

Thank you, everyone, for all of the great ideas and tips regarding collet chuck for my soon-to-arrive SB Heavy 13.  I will definitely take advantage of them.  

The reason I think I need a collet chuck is so that I can use some of my milling tooling in the lathe.  You see, I sold my big Bridgeport mill.  It was a 9 x 49; way bigger than I could ever need and taking up huge space in my 24 x 26 workshop.  Also, I needed the money to buy the new lathe (along with the anticipated sale of my existing lathe).  I only did light milling on the Bridgeport and plan to continue light milling on the lathe with the appropriate attachment.  But need a collet chuck and collets for the tooling.    First order of business will probably to machine a QCTP holder T-nut.  It was easy on the Bridgeport, but that machine is gone.    

Yeah, I know I can buy a custom T-nut; but need a first project. 

Ken


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## seasicksteve (Mar 16, 2017)

N/M my mistake


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## kd4gij (Mar 16, 2017)

If holding tooling is the main use than ER40 would be the best choice.


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## ddickey (Mar 17, 2017)

darkzero said:


> Mike is spot on & I agree. Many people go with collet systems for accuracy. And generally 3-jaw chucks aren't accurate but they can be. Between my 2 Set-Tru chucks & my 4-jaw indy, accuracy is not a problem for me, or should I say runout.
> 
> The only reason I got me a collet chuck was not for accuracy but for safety when needed. Much safer to work with a collet chuck when close up to the chuck & for polishing. But still I work close to my chucks all the time. To be honest I rarely even use my collet chuck anymore. But it's there when I need it & no real loss as again I use the ER collets in my mill.
> 
> ...


What brand is that chuck? What are the drilled holes on the side for? I notice in your pic that the register looks much deeper than mine.


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## darkzero (Mar 17, 2017)

ddickey said:


> What brand is that chuck? What are the drilled holes on the side for? I notice in your pic that the register looks much deeper than mine.



Don't know the brand, I got them from Jeff @ tools4cheap. Unfortunately he's no longer in business. He was the only one selling them back then.

The holes are for holding the plate in place so you can loosen the collet nut. In the last pic you can see that I made a tommy bar for it, the same tommy bar fits my super spacer too.

Just curious, what is the OD on your Tormach plate? It looks larger than mine, like 6"? Mine is only 132mm or 5.2"


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## ddickey (Mar 17, 2017)

Yes six inches. 
The register is 100mm wide and only 1 mm deep. It has been a challenge for me as the register is so shallow. Also the camlock are in the way so I have to turn them down which is also making my cuts interupted.


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## Tozguy (Mar 17, 2017)

Ken, does the Heavy 13 spindle have an MT5 socket?
How many of your milling tools could be held with a Weldon style holder?
http://www.busybeetools.com/products/e-m-holder-mt-3-1-2.html
I have used some 1/2'' tools in an MT3 Weldon holder with a MT5-MT3 sleeve and get less run out than with an ER 32 collet
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 .
Although my milling set-up on the lathe works for me, it seems rather light work compared to what a BP can do.
What would your largest tool size be?


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## darkzero (Mar 18, 2017)

ddickey said:


> Yes six inches.
> The register is 100mm wide and only 1 mm deep. It has been a challenge for me as the register is so shallow. Also the camlock are in the way so I have to turn them down which is also making my cuts interupted.



I forget but I think my register is a 100mm also but it's much deeper than 1mm that's for sure. 1mm is pretty shallow. I just looked up the Tormach & they sell it as a fixture plate to mount on a rotary table or indexer instead of being used as a chuck. Shouldn't matter though & it should work fine.

Were you able to get it completed? If not maybe use a thicker adapter?


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## ddickey (Mar 18, 2017)

No I wasn't. After going through two back plates I put it away for a while. It works but run-out is not acceptable.


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