# Nice scraping work



## Bob Korves (Jul 19, 2017)

Wes has a very good channel, worth the subscription.  I wish my scraping skills were half as good as his.  I only recently subscribed to his channel, but everything so far, covering multiple disciplines, is excellent.


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## Dabbler (Jul 19, 2017)

Very nice video.  I'm a novice scraper, and have only done manual scraping - boy that Biax takes a lot of the work out of it!


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## Bob Korves (Jul 19, 2017)

Dabbler said:


> Very nice video.  I'm a novice scraper, and have only done manual scraping - boy that Biax takes a lot of the work out of it!


I have an old Biax that has seen better days.  It works OK, though it could use some tightening up of the slides.  Although the Biax is a lot faster, that also means you can screw up work a lot faster.  I do not have enough time using the Biax to be good, but I have found it very easy to make gouges in the work with it if not really careful to hold it properly, without twisting it sideways.  I need more practice with it.  It is also not light.  Using one all day would be a real chore...


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## 4GSR (Jul 19, 2017)

I like the way Wes does his scraping with the Biax.  Never saw Richard teach it that way in the class I attended or any of the other classes I've seen.  Wes has the old "blue" Biax, and like you said, that sucker is heavy, and he holds it like it only weighs two pounds.  I have the same blue Biax, I can keep it steady and control it if I hold it close to my body and he's holding it out away from his body.  And the pattern he creates, I like that.  I still have some work to do on a couple of my straightedges, I'll have to give it a try.  Thanks for posting Bob!


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## Rex Walters (Jul 21, 2017)

I couldn't agree more, Ken! Wes must be strong as an ox to use his arms so much, but his scraping rows are beautiful.

While he doesn't use his legs and lower body the way Richard recommends, the even rows and clear individual scrapes of even depth are precisely what Richard teaches.

I also was really interested in his homebrew marking inks. I just acquired some red and black pigments and tried mixing it with machine oil as he suggested (though he used mortar pigment I'm hopeful any dry pigment should work equally well). I'm off on a business trip tomorrow so I didn't have much time to experiment, but I can report that it works just as Wes said. It's very different than using Canode or Dykem high spot, though.

Wes said he'd post a video about marking inks, but I did just discover one thing on my own: I think trying to mix the pigment and oil directly in the tin was a mistake. Far better to thoroughly mix on a plate and then transfer it to the tin, I think.




I'm just using dry artists pigment from a company called Gamblin and machine oil. 

I noticed when I used a brayer to spread it on the surface plate that I still had some dry clumps because I hadn't mixed it thoroughly enough. The dry clumps were definitely thick enough to cause bad readings.

I think mixing on a plate thoroughly, and rolling it out thin with a brayer and really working it for a while before scraping it back up to store it in the tin would have worked better.

Here's a part with the red base layer applied:




And here is a markup with a fairly thick layer of black on the plate:




Sadly, it's not really much higher contrast than I was seeing with Canode or Dykem. It does seem like a reasonable choice for roughing, though.

I want to try some more experiments when I'm back. I've also ordered some special high contrast pigments that should be fun to play with once I receive them.

Regards,
-- 
Rex


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## benmychree (Jul 21, 2017)

Before Rich gave me the leftover marking pigments after one of the classes I attended, I used red lead in machine oil; the shop where I worked was using it for lubricating high stress bolts on bridge hinges, I managed to divert some dry red lead and did the oil mixture and as advised in the Machine Tool Reconditioning book, I put it up in cardboard snuff boxes; in this way, the excess oil is absorbed, and when you want to use it, you just drop a drop or so of lube oil in and mix it around with a finger, and apply it with the very same digit and spread it out with the other fingers included; I do appreciate that the stuff that he gave me is much easier to clean up than red lead or Prussian blue.


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## benmychree (Jul 21, 2017)

I remember that in visiting my mother's uncle in Mass., he had served his apprenticeship with Brown & Sharpe starting, I think in 1912; he told me that they scraped there (I assume for reference surfaces) to 64 spots per inch.


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## Rex Walters (Jul 21, 2017)

benmychree said:


> I managed to divert some dry red lead and did the oil mixture and as advised in the Machine Tool Reconditioning book, I put it up in cardboard snuff boxes; in this way, the excess oil is absorbed, and when you want to use it, you just drop a drop or so of lube oil in and mix it around with a finger, and apply it with the very same digit and spread it out with the other fingers included;



One of the things that appeals to me about scraping is just how messy, old-school, and ... tactile the process is. It appeals to my finger-painting inner child. 

I'm becoming a fan of spreading the marking media with my fingers as well as using a brayer. I used to think that your fingers could only detect down to 0.001" or so, but I now have no doubt they are far more sensitive than that. While a brayer will pick up much of any grit or dirt on the plate, there's nothing like your fingers to discover every last little fleck that can screw up a marking pass.

It also never ceases to amaze me how well you can FEEL a hand scraper hitting the high spots in an individual scrape. The tactile feedback lining up with the blue spots seen by your eyes is incredibly satisfying for some reason.

The absurdity also appeals to me: scraping is all about precision, and cleanliness is incredibly important: the tiniest little fleck of dirt will totally destroy a reading. Yet it's an incredibly messy process that leaves metal scrapings and ink all over the place, and leaves you filthy head to toe!
--
Rex


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## benmychree (Jul 22, 2017)

Rex Walters said:


> One of the things that appeals to me about scraping is just how messy, old-school, and ... tactile the process is. It appeals to my finger-painting inner child.
> 
> I'm becoming a fan of spreading the marking media with my fingers as well as using a brayer. I used to think that your fingers could only detect down to 0.001" or so, but I now have no doubt they are far more sensitive than that. While a brayer will pick up much of any grit or dirt on the plate, there's nothing like your fingers to discover every last little fleck that can screw up a marking pass.
> 
> ...


Which classes with Rich did you attend in the Bay Area? I did the one in Richmond and the one in Oakland at the blacksmith shop.  Yes, there is good reason to spread out the medium with the fingers to detect grit; a brayer is OK to get on the plate, but it should be spread with the fingers,  The only thing I did not like to see in the video was that he left the top off his medium container all the while he was scraping and cleaning up, risking getting gritty stuff in it.


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## Rex Walters (Jul 22, 2017)

I took Richard's class in Georgia at Keith Rucker's shop, not here where I live in the Bay Area. I travel a lot for work so it wasn't too crazy to go that far.

Cheers,
-- 
Rex


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## benmychree (Jul 22, 2017)

Rex Walters said:


> I took Richard's class in Georgia at Keith Rucker's shop, not here where I live in the Bay Area. I travel a lot for work so it wasn't too crazy to go that far.
> 
> Cheers,
> --
> Rex


I was fortunate that one of my friends promoted and arranged the venue for the classes here, and I was invited to provide some equipment and tools that Rich did not have to bring with him, for that I was "comped" the class (no cost to me).  It was a pleasure to work with Rich, hope to do it again some time if we can lure him out here again; I thought it might happen this spring, but it was not to be.


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## george wilson (Jul 22, 2017)

He seems to let the Biax "drop off" of the edges. That might create a convex surface on the straight edge. I haven't watched the whole video. Maybe he corrects that later?


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## Rex Walters (Jul 22, 2017)

I think we armchair quarterbacks tend to dismiss the score. 

His markups clearly show he's getting the piece pretty flat. And quickly, too.
-- 
Rex


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## 4GSR (Jul 22, 2017)

benmychree said:


> Before Rich gave me the leftover marking pigments after one of the classes I attended, I used red lead in machine oil; the shop where I worked was using it for lubricating high stress bolts on bridge hinges, I managed to divert some dry red lead and did the oil mixture and as advised in the Machine Tool Reconditioning book, I put it up in cardboard snuff boxes; in this way, the excess oil is absorbed, and when you want to use it, you just drop a drop or so of lube oil in and mix it around with a finger, and apply it with the very same digit and spread it out with the other fingers included; I do appreciate that the stuff that he gave me is much easier to clean up than red lead or Prussian blue.


In my earlier years in scraping, I was taught to use red lead mixed with a little "Tap Magic".  We used the palm of our hands to wipe the surface with after applying.  I recall Richard doing this in class too.  I think I lost a few brain cells from all of the use of red lead I used back then, too.


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## benmychree (Jul 22, 2017)

george wilson said:


> He seems to let the Biax "drop off" of the edges. That might create a convex surface on the straight edge. I haven't watched the whole video. Maybe he corrects that later?


He does exhibit very good control of the scraper, but I take issue with the way he starts at a corner; it is all too easy to catch the scraper blade on the vertical surface of the corner, and I saw him do it several times in the video; I start back from the corner, then come back from the opposite side and backtrack to the corner without the problem happening; I do not see evidence that he is rolling the corners over.


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## 4GSR (Jul 22, 2017)

Starting at the corner is one way to catch the corner and strip out the gear in the Biax power scraper.  Especially if you have one of the old blue one's as I have.


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## benmychree (Jul 22, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Starting at the corner is one way to catch the corner and strip out the gear in the Biax power scraper.  Especially if you have one of the old blue one's as I have.


Thanks for elaborating on the consequences of catching on the corner; it also can chip or break the cutters.  My Biax is the variable speed type that an elderly frien bought when he did not have the strength to hand scrape anymore; he also bought the flaker; after he passed, his sons generously gave them to me, knowing my relationship with him; he could be pretty ornery, especially with his sons, and I tolerated him and liked him for his obstinacy; he was a real character!  RIP, Lyman Hawks.


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## george wilson (Jul 23, 2017)

He at least seemed to get good results at the end!


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## benmychree (Jul 23, 2017)

george wilson said:


> He at least seemed to get good results at the end!


Yes, but the result did fall short of the 40 points that he was after initially; he pronounced it finished at an estimated 30 points, which is, I suppose about as good as possible to achieve without picking off individual points of bearing as Richard King does by "dive bombing them".


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## george wilson (Jul 23, 2017)

I think 30 points would be o.k. for this purpose. The points will soon wear anyway,rubbing them on cast iron.


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## C-Bag (Sep 18, 2017)

Thanks so much Bob for posting this and bringing Wes to my attention. I love his get 'er done methods and subscribed to his channel. His approach to scraping by hand and power is just what I needed. And the tips like using mortar pigment are priceless. Way easier to find than Canode and way cheaper and arguably better as it doesn't mix like Canode. I also love his no nonsense delivery with tons of great inside tips with less wasted time. This is how somebody who does this for a living would do it where time is $$. I'm going through all his vids and I hope he keeps on.


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## kopeck (Sep 29, 2017)

This is all pretty fascinating to me.

My Uncle used to scrape for Pratt & Whitney (the engine company, not the tool company).  He was a tool setup and repair man, he's told me a handful of stories about things they had to do to make machines work.  The scraping part I always thought was interesting but I never knew how much of an art, or almost a lost art it's become.  Now I feel like bugging him to teach me.  He did offer to try and scrape in the ways on my Craftsman/Atlas lathe.  He said he could do a "surface cut" that really wouldn't change anything but would hold oil much better then the ground surface.  To really modify the ways we would need a surface plate which I don't have.  That and we're talking about a 6" lathe. 

It's interesting the comments on technique.  He told me once that he scraped with a couple of older guys early on and they each had their own techniques.  He said it's a pretty physical job and you need to do what works best for you to be consistent and not wear your self out.  Some of the jobs these jobs would take weeks.  Now he's the old guy.  

K


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## C-Bag (Sep 29, 2017)

You are very lucky to have a family member you can learn from. Especially one that worked at such an elite place as P&W. You would learn so much in just doing a surface cut and would not believe the difference after it was done. It seems counter intuitive but the problem with two slick surfaces causing stiction makes it tough to do small adjustments in use. This is eliminated by doing that surface cut. Personally I love the amount of stories this would bring back from working with him. It is close to a lost art and you learn more from somebody who had to do it day in day out in a production setting than as "art" IMHO.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 29, 2017)

kopeck said:


> This is all pretty fascinating to me.
> 
> My Uncle used to scrape for Pratt & Whitney (the engine company, not the tool company).  He was a tool setup and repair man, he's told me a handful of stories about things they had to do to make machines work.  The scraping part I always thought was interesting but I never knew how much of an art, or almost a lost art it's become.  Now I feel like bugging him to teach me.  He did offer to try and scrape in the ways on my Craftsman/Atlas lathe.  He said he could do a "surface cut" that really wouldn't change anything but would hold oil much better then the ground surface.  To really modify the ways we would need a surface plate which I don't have.  That and we're talking about a 6" lathe.
> 
> ...


A 6 foot plus surface plate is not needed to scrape in that lathe.  Cast iron straightedges are used for the bed ways.  Start with Connelly's book (and your uncle):
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/connelly-on-machine-tool-reconditioning.41802/


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## killswitch505 (Sep 29, 2017)

Pretty interesting..... I can get my head around how they can map the tool on the surface plate but how do map the ways on the machine?


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## Bob Korves (Sep 29, 2017)

killswitch505 said:


> Pretty interesting..... I can get my head around how they can map the tool on the surface plate but how do map the ways on the machine?


Read the Connelly book linked in the post above yours and learn.  It is only about 500 pages and is considered the bible of machine tool reconditioning.  It is too much to cover adequately in a paragraph on this forum, and even the book is just a primer.  There is also training available to learn the needed skills:
http://www.handscraping.com/

Edit:  Misconceptions of how machines are rehabbed by scraping abound, don't believe everything you hear on forums...


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## kopeck (Sep 29, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> A 6 foot plus surface plate is not needed to scrape in that lathe.  Cast iron straightedges are used for the bed ways.  Start with Connelly's book (and your uncle):
> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/connelly-on-machine-tool-reconditioning.41802/



I know, but the bed on my lathe is very small.  He said a straight edge and a surface gauge would be good enough.  I think he said it's easier to work from a surface plate, at least in the learning stages.

I know he used lasers a lot at Pratt & Whitney.  Many of those machines were massive.

K


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## Bob Korves (Sep 29, 2017)

kopeck said:


> I know, but the bed on my lathe is very small.  He said a straight edge and a surface gauge would be good enough.  I think he said it's easier to work from a surface plate, at least in the learning stages.
> 
> I know he used lasers a lot at Pratt & Whitney.  Many of those machines were massive.
> 
> K


Good advice, he knows what he is talking about...


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## ddickey (Sep 29, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Read the Connelly book linked in the post above yours and learn.  It is only about 500 pages and is considered the bible of machine tool reconditioning.  It is too much to cover adequately in a paragraph on this forum, and even the book is just a primer.  There is also training available to learn the needed skills:
> http://www.handscraping.com/
> 
> Edit:  Misconceptions of how machines are rehabbed by scraping abound, don't believe everything you hear on forums...


You know I sent them a message about classes but I never got a response. I'd like to find a rebuilding shop around here that wants to teach someone in return for free labor. I'd jump all over that.


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## killswitch505 (Sep 29, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Read the Connelly book linked in the post above yours and learn.  It is only about 500 pages and is considered the bible of machine tool reconditioning.  It is too much to cover adequately in a paragraph on this forum, and even the book is just a primer.  There is also training available to learn the needed skills:
> http://www.handscraping.com/
> 
> Edit:  Misconceptions of how machines are rehabbed by scraping abound, don't believe everything you hear on forums...



I'll chick it out this weekend!!


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## 4GSR (Sep 29, 2017)

ddickey said:


> You know I sent them a message about classes but I never got a response. I'd like to find a rebuilding shop around here that wants to teach someone in return for free labor. I'd jump all over that.


Get a hold of Uglydog, he was trying to put together a class up that way last year.  I think it was more informal than anything, but was guided by an experience scraper person he knows.


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## ddickey (Sep 29, 2017)

I was getting the emails just never landed on a day I wasn't working. Seems like the group has not gotten together in some time.


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## TakeDeadAim (Feb 3, 2018)

Rex Walters said:


> I think we armchair quarterbacks tend to dismiss the score.
> 
> His markups clearly show he's getting the piece pretty flat. And quickly, too.
> --
> Rex


I would agree with George that you can see and hear the cut dig in on the edges of the straightedge when he's taking the cut.  This is further supported by the "chatter marks" on the edges.  Just because it prints well does not mean its flat.  If the edges are convex it will roll and print in the lower areas. You can scrape a rounded object straight on a plate and it will print well. He has his black on very heavy and that adds to this problem.  I did a great job of getting it roughed in with the biax but I would have switched to a hand scraper to finish it up.  Having used what all of you admit is a very heavy tool myself it is difficult to control the blade on the edges of a surface.  It was for that reason the company I worked for would not allow the use of the power tool on any reference surfaces or finishing on a machine.    Taking nothing away from what he was doing there, again great job of getting the straightedge down close very quickly but i would have to agree that that piece shows indications of a convex surface.  Now were talking very small numbers but again this is a reference surface.


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 6, 2018)

I just watched the video on here.  What he is doing is something i do teach Ken in the classes.  That's called "Crosses"  and he is "machine gunning it"  To a pro he is not getting a very good bearing.  He has what looks like smeared bluing and maybe has 12 Points Per Inch (PPI) and 25% coverage even with the smears.   If that's the Wes I think it is he has a lot to learn.   Check out NYC CNC on you tube or  Jan Sverre Haugjord scraping a cast iron surface plate.   There are sorts of scraping videos my students have shot on you tube.  Search my name Richard King Scraping on there and you will see several done here in the USA and Europe.


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## tertiaryjim (Feb 7, 2018)

Im just a rank amateur with no formal training and have learned through my own errors how easy it is to create
bad readings when blue checking parts. I'm still finding I create errors and then have to determine what I did wrong
and how to avoid that problem in the future.
Some of the yutube vids are great,especially those by Mr Kings students, but some are a mess and even a year ago I could pick out 
big errors they were making.
Common sense and just caring will make all the difference and I do go back to redo things I had thought were done because thats what 
needs to be done in some cases.


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## Dabbler (Feb 7, 2018)

The thing in any toolwork, but especially scraping, is learning how to measure _well_.  For most things, .001 is 'good enough', but to do a good job scraping, you have to devise means to measure to .0001 (or better) _reliably _and _repeatably_, or you will never know where you are at.


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 7, 2018)

99% of the my student You Tubers are correct in my opinion, many it was there first class others have been to 3 or 4.  50 hour classes.  Machine rebuilding is a skilled trade one need's to work for 4 years to be a Journeyman.  The ones that are not perfect,  I had no control over what they did after the class.  They at least are trying to teach.  The rebuilding business is a Small World if you see and know as many people as I do you can tell what an experience scraper does..  Some of the You Tubers scrape different then the majority of people do.  Suburban Tool has one.  etc. etc.   I have a  DVD that was copied by the presenter in my opinion and never gave me credit.  If it is who I think he is he only has a few years working as a helper scraping.  He is a good Electrons Tech. and a mechanic, but he is an apprentice scraper who also works alongside  Journeymen scrapers. I taught a class at his part-time workplace and he declined to take a class. I offered to teach him for free as a matter of fact.   So I know a bit more about what was presented then most do.  But he was trying to teach and was better then some.


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## Rooster (Feb 7, 2018)

I think everyone should watch Brian Ives, of K & J Scraping. He has a training video that shows how a pro scrapes, and take note of the smoke.


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 7, 2018)

That's a old trick you put mineral spirits on the metal and it smokes.  I learned that trick 50 years ago from my dad so we could impress people walking by the work area.


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## tertiaryjim (Feb 8, 2018)

The machines I have were built so crappy or were purchased clapped out so I have been doing the best I can without some of the needed jigs and fixtures to get reliable readings in tenths. When I can get a mic on something I take multiple readings till my "feel" of pressure is the same as when checking with the standard and the readings repeat till I'm certain any variance is in the millionths. Then I know I'm within a tenth.
I will build the needed fixtures when I get the machines reasonably accurate.
My little mill/drill was out of square by more than 0.008" per foot and parts just 4 inches long would be about 0.002" thicker at one end than the other. I could shim the column till it trammed within  tents but it would still cut out.

I know I'll get some people shook up with this but but the only way I could get some surfaces reasonably close for scraping was by setting up retaining walls and sliding the part under the cutter without moving the table. Large, heavy parts were done without any retainer. Cuts were 0.002" to 0.004" deep depending on my ability to control the part. It worked very well with sharp tools cutting cast iron. Just had to be careful not to climb mill.


One of the tools I need to build is a simple fixture to mount on the surface gauge that will let me check vertical surfaces for square.
Till then I just check the against the cylindrical square and work the part over till it checks square. I can use feeler gauges to read to the nearest 0.005"
but that last bit is just a sliver of light.
At this time I have to clamp a flat plate on the table to machine one side and end which I can then check against the cylindrical square as I can't get a reliable reading when checking  the top and bottom dovetails of the saddle for square. My readings did get me within 0.001" per foot but thats not good enough so I cut the plate and check it.  Last check it was only a few tenths per ft. out of square judging by the light gap.  I'll continue till I'm confident it's within 0.0001" per ft.
I dont trust the squares I have though a couple do check pretty close to square.  My cylindrical square checks good.
It's a lot of work.


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## Rooster (Feb 8, 2018)

Richard, my suggestion for everyone to watch the video was to show that rough scraping is a vigorous removal of metal. As too the smoke, oil or not there would be alot of heat generated from such aggressive scraping. I have seen videos by some of your students doing nothing more than tickling the iron.


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## Silverbullet (Feb 8, 2018)

benmychree said:


> Thanks for elaborating on the consequences of catching on the corner; it also can chip or break the cutters.  My Biax is the variable speed type that an elderly frien bought when he did not have the strength to hand scrape anymore; he also bought the flaker; after he passed, his sons generously gave them to me, knowing my relationship with him; he could be pretty ornery, especially with his sons, and I tolerated him and liked him for his obstinacy; he was a real character!  RIP, Lyman Hawks.


Not hard to get to really liking guys like that. They turn out to be best friends . Had a few myself.


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