# PM1440GT Motor Swap...



## LVLAaron (Jul 13, 2022)

After some troubles (Documented here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/my-vfd-is-having-a-stroke-pm1440gt.100760/) and some stolen inspiration from @Jake P (here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/1440gt-upgrades-and-additions.96854/)

I've decided to try out a Marathon motor. Got it for a steal brand new on fleabay.
I'll probably start working on things this weekend when I can take some measurements and fab up the motor mount needed for this hulk.


PS - Don't judge my Mill work. The mill is still a fancy drill press to me.  - But I started cobbling together some parts for a turnbuckle to keep belt tension. 


More to come.


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## markba633csi (Jul 13, 2022)

Nice job on the tensioner parts
-M


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## LVLAaron (Jul 13, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> Nice job on the tensioner parts
> -M


Old rifle barrels!


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## Jake P (Jul 14, 2022)

Looking great so far!  You’re going to love that motor, they are smooth as silk.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 14, 2022)

Jake P said:


> Looking great so far!  You’re going to love that motor, they are smooth as silk.


Thanks! I can tell it's gonna be smooth just turning it by hand!


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## Christianstark (Jul 14, 2022)

Do you have to modify the machine for this swap, or are you just beefing up the tensioning?


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## LVLAaron (Jul 14, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> Do you have to modify the machine for this swap, or are you just beefing up the tensioning?


Take a look at jakes thread in my first post. Minor mods needed to the belt cover, along with fabricating a new bracket for the motor.


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## Stonebriar (Jul 14, 2022)

A new bracket for the motor is a good idea for any motor on the 1440GT. That factory setup is a pain do  any kind of adjustment.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 14, 2022)

Agreed. The factory setup is certainly compact, but it's like working on a german car. Impossible.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 14, 2022)

Got a little done today. Cranked out some spacers for the lathe side mount, and trimmed the steel plate to size (And boy, do I need a real metal bandsaw. Portaband is handy but not cut for this kind of thing!)

I've got a bunch of 1144 roundbar I was going to make the hinges out of, but the internet says it's not really a weldable steel. I'll get some bar tomorrow from the local metal place.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 15, 2022)

Roughed in some hinges from 1018 (Shout out to Metal Supermarkets for being quick and fast. 20 bucks for a bar that was 150 at Alro!)


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## LVLAaron (Jul 15, 2022)

I'll be the brave soul who posts his first real welds on the internet. It's a flux core 120v machine... but did the trick. 

And the hinge still "hinges" post weld.


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## Jake P (Jul 15, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> I'll be the brave soul who posts his first real welds on the internet. It's a flux core 120v machine... but did the trick.
> 
> And the hinge still "hinges" post weld.


I would be happy with those welds!!

Are the bolts just for temporary alignment?  You may already have thought about this or perhaps I mentioned it in my post (I don't remember) but on mine I used a hinge pin that has a spring clip on both ends, that way you can pop one off and remove the hinge pin without having to remove the backsplash should you want to pull the motor for any reason.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 15, 2022)

Had not thought about that, but it's a good idea. I never want to remove the backsplash! 
Side note- Metals supermarket can bend sheet metal for almost nothing as long as you have a half decent drawing. I plan on putting an aluminum shelf on top of the backsplash to keep my tool holders, oilers, etc. When I draw it up I'll share it and anyone can order one from them.


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## Jake P (Jul 15, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> Had not thought about that, but it's a good idea. I never want to remove the backsplash!


My backsplash is so loaded it would take a while just get to the point of being able to remove it. 

Just as an idea, I copied the tray idea for the top of the headstock and the backsplash from Gavintoobe on YouTube.


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## Christianstark (Jul 16, 2022)

Jake P said:


> My backsplash is so loaded it would take a while just get to the point of being able to remove it,
> 
> Just as an idea, I copied the tray idea for the top of the headstock and the backsplash from Gavintube on YouTube.
> 
> ...



You have plans for that, or a link? I want that on my 1340!


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## LVLAaron (Jul 16, 2022)

@Jake P - What size belts did you end up using? I've got AX30 and two of the smallest pulleys I could find for the motor (Dont remember what size they are exactly)


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## Jake P (Jul 16, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> You have plans for that, or a link? I want that on my 1340!


Here’s the video for Gavintoobe, the shelf setup is at around 35:00


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## Jake P (Jul 16, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> @Jake P - What size belts did you end up using? I've got AX30 and two of the smallest pulleys I could find for the motor (Dont remember what size they are exactly)


Yes, it’s a Gates AX30 I ordered from Biedlers-Belts.  I can look up the pulley I used if you need that info.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 16, 2022)

I think I'm OK with one of the two pulleys I got - they were the two smallest sizes you can get for the shaft on the motor.

Lunch break. I'm at the point where the real work starts. Pull the motor off, drill and tap the mount, trim, etc.
Trimming the frame sure wasn't fun. But I did find some enamel paint that is "machine gray" that looks like it will be a good match. (Primer only in photo)


_*Did you do anything with the thermostat wires? *_


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## LVLAaron (Jul 16, 2022)

Time for Abom79's saturday night videos and some dinner. 
Ended up adding some speed holes to one of the plates for the 17mm bolts that mount it to the headstock.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 16, 2022)

AX30 belts aren't going to fit.
Belt calculator says 33 inches required... (https://www.omnicalculator.com/phys...,small_diameter:2.75!inch,distance:10.25!inch). I'll get a link belt from horrible freight and get this thing bolted down.

@Jake P shoot me your address and I'll send you two brand new AX30 belts for your machine.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 17, 2022)

Motor is in and running.  VERY quiet.


I changed to base voltage to 230v for this motor. 60hz base freq, 90hz max. 4 poles.





Couple of small issues. 
1. Auto tune (with motor rotation) throws E02.2 error 
2. When running in sensorless vector I get the same weird cog/hiccup in the motor rotation as the other motors were having. It's just one hiccup and then it gets going and runs (what I presume) to be fine. 
3. When running on constatnt torque, it's just as smooth/quiet as sensorless vector - I get an almost unnoticeable hiccup at the same time when the motor is ramping up.


I don't know if this has anything to do with the autotune error. I have a 50ohm braking resistor that the VFD picks up as 35.

@mksj - what say you?


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## B2 (Jul 17, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> same weird cog/hiccup in the motor rotation


Just a thought.....
Are you sure this is not partly due to the gear box being connected?  My 1440GT gear box can do some strange things during start up as it seems to sometimes slip in and out of one gear to another and then back.   However, I would not have referred to this as a hiccup.   The center gear position does not always seem to be secure and appears to depend upon the direction the lever was moved from!   You might want to try these start up sequences without the belts being on the motor pulley to see if the cog/hiccup happens when there is no load or at lease a only a small load.  If not then try the start up with the belt attached, but with the gear box levers in various positions. 

Dave


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## LVLAaron (Jul 17, 2022)

B2 said:


> Just a thought.....
> Are you sure this is not partly due to the gear box being connected?  My 1440GT gear box can do some strange things during start up as it seems to sometimes slip in and out of one gear to another and then back.   However, I would not have referred to this as a hiccup.   The center gear position does not always seem to be secure and appears to depend upon the direction the lever was moved from!   You might want to try these start up sequences without the belts being on the motor pulley to see if the cog/hiccup happens when there is no load or at lease a only a small load.  If not then try the start up with the belt attached, but with the gear box levers in various positions.
> 
> Dave



Good thought, but definitely not that. It's obvious even with the jog button and no belt attached. It will get maybe 1-2 full turns and then hesitate a bit, or reverse momentarily. 
When I spoke to Drives Warehouse about my VFD RMA (see previous thread in first post) the tech support guy said they have better luck just using the hitachi default settings instead of auto-tune. 
So right now I'm on the "Hitachi Default" tune settings, constant torque, and the motor runs perfectly. 
I'll give them a shout on Monday and see if they spot anything obvious with my config as well.


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## mksj (Jul 17, 2022)

Are you running it off of the replacement VFD or the original one? I have had the opposite experience that the motors run better after the Auto-tune, they will often cog a bit without it. As I mentioned previously I have seen a similar issue where the front panel was removed and the ball and spring in the handle was missing, this caused the gearbox to rattle/cog. You should not get a motor error with Auto-Tune, you might also try a different  motor cable and make sure the motor belt is off. Nothing wrong with running in constant torque, but you loose the motor feedback which improves low end performance. Unlikely to be an issue with the new motor.

Resistor setting is the default not the value of the resistor attached.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 17, 2022)

mksj said:


> Are you running it off of the replacement VFD or the original one? I have had the opposite experience that the motors run better after the Auto-tune, they will often cog a bit without it. As I mentioned previously I have seen a similar issue where the front panel was removed and the ball and spring in the handle was missing, this caused the gearbox to rattle/cog. You should not get a motor error with Auto-Tune, you might also try a different  motor cable and make sure the motor belt is off. Nothing wrong with running in constant torque, but you loose the motor feedback which improves low end performance. Unlikely to be an issue with the new motor.
> 
> Resistor setting is the default not the value of the resistor attached.



Brand new VFD. Definitely not gearbox related as I can see/hear it happen with the belt off. 
I got a new motor cable coming from mcmaster anyway, the one I have now is a bit short with the new setup. 


Current cable has a drain wire - I have that attached to the ground on the VFD - good idea or bad?


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## B2 (Jul 17, 2022)

Hi Aarron,

I am not for sure it is of any help to you, but I posted my PM1440GT VFD setting earlier.  You can see them at the end of the Part 2 pdf report.  (PM 1440GT Part 2 VFDDescript links DNL L910_1440b). I am running the PM stock motor with the Hitachi VFD.  


B2 said:


> VFD conversion using solid state electronic components.



Dave.


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## mksj (Jul 17, 2022)

Drain wire/shield and ground are connected together at both ends, the drain wire should be insulated, I use shrink tubing and then crimp it and the ground to a ring terminal attached to the ground on both ends. An E02.2 error is a fault error on deceleration which should not be happening. Never seen it with just running the motor regardless of the braking resistor. You might send me the parameters you are using and I can look over them and also take a picture of your connections to the VFD.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 17, 2022)

Kinda hard to see what's going on. Files attached. The motor cable drain is not connected to anything on the motor end.










						WJ200 July 17 config
					

Sheet1  Data ID,Data Name,Setting value,Current value,Unit,Default value,Range F001,Output frequency setting,46.36,46.36,Hz,0,0.00, 0.50 ... 90.00 F002,Acceleration time (1),4,5,s,10,0.00 ... 3600.00 F202,Acceleration time (1),2nd motor,10,10,s,10,0.00 ... 3600.00 F003,Deceleration time (1),2,2,s,10




					docs.google.com


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## mksj (Jul 17, 2022)

Try to make the following parameter changes, the rest look OK.
B022 = 170
B052 = 380
B085 = 00 (Japan) see if there is any other settings such as standard or US/North America
I have never encountered a problem with Auto-Tune with 100's of builds, so a bit perplexed on that one and certainly the deceleration time is conservative in particular with no drive attached. If it faults try static tune, but pretty strange. I have also installed quite a few of these inverter/vector motors and never encountered any issues like you are having.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 17, 2022)

mksj said:


> Try to make the following parameter changes, the rest look OK.
> B022 = 170
> B052 = 380
> B085 = 00 (Japan) see if there is any other settings such as standard or US/North America
> I have never encountered a problem with Auto-Tune with 100's of builds, so a bit perplexed on that one and certainly the deceleration time is conservative in particular with no drive attached. If it faults try static tune, but pretty strange. I have also installed quite a few of these inverter/vector motors and never encountered any issues like you are having.



Thanks! I'll give it a shot. Stay tuned.
The options for B085 are Japan, EU, China.
B022 was already 170. 

Do these settings affect the auto-tune?


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## mksj (Jul 17, 2022)

B052 change should prevent it from tripping on deceleration, the country of origin only on reset. The thing is that the default settings for Japan are quite a bit different then US.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 17, 2022)

Here's the "hiccup" it has when in sensorless mode. (Same thing happens with no belt)






Here it is in Constant Torque mode w/ a 4 second spinup





I'll retry the auto-tune with rotation in a day or two when I get proper belts and swap the motor cable. 
The Drives Warehouse tech said wonky pots can cause weird issues... I have a cheap 2k pot I could try. 


At the end of the day... if it's running well... is it worth chasing my tail?


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## mksj (Jul 18, 2022)

I would try to run the auto-tune with the belt off just to see (try it in sensorless vector mode, if it still cogs then try it in constant torque and load the new motor constants H002 =02), if it does not run smoothly in SVC then just run it in constant torque. These motors are quite different in their motor constants vs. a standard motor. End of the day unless you are running it at the RPM extremes you will not notice any major difference between SVC and CT. It is still perplexing that it ran fine and then later on you started to have these issues. It may be in sensorless vector that there is some form of feedback loop so that the motor is oscillating.

The speed pot has no effect when doing the Auto-tune, but I have mentioned previously that with cheap speed pots, typically carbon track type that the wiper tension and resistance can vary with vibration or just poor mechanical properties and the speed will jump around. I usually recommend a better quality speed pot that has a plastic (hot molded) resistance track or wire wound types. The 2W types tends to be a little heavier built, but there is very limited current so a lower wattage could be used if it is a better pot, they often list the MTBF and the better pots are rated for over 100,000 turns (some in the millions).


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## LVLAaron (Jul 18, 2022)

mksj said:


> I would try to run the auto-tune with the belt off just to see (try it in sensorless vector mode, if it still cogs then try it in constant torque and load the new motor constants H002 =02), if it does not run smoothly in SVC then just run it in constant torque. These motors are quite different in their motor constants vs. a standard motor. End of the day unless you are running it at the RPM extremes you will not notice any major difference between SVC and CT. It is still perplexing that it ran fine and then later on you started to have these issues. It may be in sensorless vector that there is some form of feedback loop so that the motor is oscillating.
> 
> The speed pot has no effect when doing the Auto-tune, but I have mentioned previously that with cheap speed pots, typically carbon track type that the wiper tension and resistance can vary with vibration or just poor mechanical properties and the speed will jump around. I usually recommend a better quality speed pot that has a plastic (hot molded) resistance track or wire wound types. The 2W types tends to be a little heavier built, but there is very limited current so a lower wattage could be used if it is a better pot, they often list the MTBF and the better pots are rated for over 100,000 turns (some in the millions).



Will give it a whack tomorrow night when my new belts and wire arrive. 
I doubt I have a problem with the pot, if the hz display on the vfd is any indication. It's pretty solid.

And yeah, I don't veer too far from 60hz. Maybe as low as 45 if I'm threading close to a shoulder. The gearbox gives me the flexibility I need.


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## xr650rRider (Jul 18, 2022)

I'd bypass that input filter your using.  Not being able to complete auto-tune is telling you something is out of whack.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 18, 2022)

xr650rRider said:


> I'd bypass that input filter your using.  Not being able to complete auto-tune is telling you something is out of whack.



The RFI filter? Or the ferrite chokes on the motor cable?


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## xr650rRider (Jul 18, 2022)

LVLAaron said:


> The RFI filter? Or the ferrite chokes on the motor cable?



Yes

Did the manual for the VFD indicate that ferrite chokes were needed?  I'm not using either and have no issues.  Couldn't tell exactly from the picture of the wiring but looked liked the RFI filter was before the disconnect.  Maybe you had another disconnect prior to that one that was off during lighting storm.  Devices with MOVs and other filtering can be damaged with lightning strike.  They might prevent damage downstream but they are usually sacrificial.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 18, 2022)

The RFI thing is before the disconnect. I should move that.
Here's what the auto tune failure looks/sounds like. I'm sure it's not helpful. I'll talk to drives warehouse tomorrow when I have time and let you know what they say.


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## mksj (Jul 18, 2022)

The auto-tune makes that whine, but something is dropping out when it comes close to stopping. Get rid of the clamp on filters on the motor cable, they they are not needed and they are the wrong type. What is typically used is a single donut and each motor is wrapped around the donut several times equal distant and in the same direction of winding, otherwise a dv/dt filter. Neither should be used with such a short cable. Most people wouldn't even shield it for that length.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 18, 2022)

They were removed for that "test" 

Would you also remove the cheap RFI filter?


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## mksj (Jul 18, 2022)

Input filter should make no difference, fine to leave it. Technically you want one specific to the application and low leakage current, example below.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 18, 2022)

The drama continues with this project.


Decided to turn something and make sure all was working. Fire it up in in constant torque, VFD - Running on M/2 gear, 60 hz60hz -


I can almost stop it dead by gripping my outboard spider (I know I know, I had my mother on speed dial and wore two condoms)


Switched it to sensorless vector, hiccuped during startup of course, and pretty close to the same thing.


Turning 60 thou depth on some 416 stainless bogs it down to about half speed.


I'm going to drink a lot of bourbon tonight boys.


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## mksj (Jul 18, 2022)

Something is distinctly wrong, that combination you should not be able to stop the motor at any speed. Maybe try bypassing the the input filter and fusing, also maybe try a different circuit, it almost seems like the VFD is starved of current. Check your wiring and terminals back to the panel breaker, there should be no neutral connections. Try to take a better picture of your VFD connections.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 18, 2022)

Shop power is good, I run other large tools (Air Compressor, large AC, no problems. Voltage is 123 per line) - Stock motor was strong.

Bypassed the input filter. 

Started the motor and put a clamp meter on everything. Input is about 4.5 amps per line, output to motor is about the same on all 3 lines. Connections are all crimped properly and secured to their terminals. 
Checked motor wiring again, for the 10th time.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 18, 2022)

OK. Some good news. *I am dumb! - *The power loss was just a belt slip. (crappy link belt, new pulley has gloss paint... she slips easy!) 

Tightened it down.. All kinds of torque in either CT or SV mode. 

Last post, I promise, until I talk to the drives warehouse support guy.


_When this is all said and done, I'm sending mksj a bottle of his favorite bourbon. _


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## mksj (Jul 18, 2022)

Only drink wine, but this saga may have me thinking otherwise. Sorry but link belts are just temporary, and will not provide smooth control. I am still puzzled by the auto-tune problems, and motor hiccups. I am only a hobbyist but have been involved with hundreds of these VFD installs and this one is really challenge to get to the bottom of the issue. I usually eliminate all the variables, start with basic wiring/programming and sequentially reintroduce the variables to see the cause.  The inverter/vector motors are bullet proof, so that is rarely an issue, and since they differ significantly from standard motors the one reason why they benefit form the auto-tune. In mills I run these motors form 20-200 Hz so sensorless vector control is important, in your application either CT or SV mode is fine, but the motor should not fault on auto tune. I am wondering if there is something new with the sourcing of these VFD's, software changes, or design changes that might be a bug. I used the WJ200 for years and only recently a few people have had some issues with them. I have been switching some of my builds to Yaskawa drives, but the supply in the US has dried up and the prices have gone up significantly.  

Your wiring to the looks good, I see no issues. More FYI, when using shielded cables I do not ;eave any shield exposed because of risk of shorting. In the build below the motor cable shield is completely covered and bonded with the cable ground wire at both ends, the shield control cables are bonded to the connector/box because I am using plugs otherwise they would come in and control shields are grounded to the VFD ground screw same as you have done. This is just for safety, and these days I try to use finger safe terminals and below the power in has a plastic cover, I also do this for my motor connections and then wrap that with electrical tape. I am of the premise of what if, even if it is highly unlikely which is the reason for redundancy in systems and looking at failure mode scenarios.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 19, 2022)

A high carrier frequency can cause this problem.  Try reducing B083 from 12 to like 6 and see if it goes away.  If so, then you can increase it until it starts causing a problem again if the whine is annoying.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 19, 2022)

No change on the carrier.
I did some fiddling this morning and got it to run really smooth in sensorless vector. S curve acceleration cured the starting hiccup.
Still can't auto tune with rotation.

Calling drives warehouse after a mid-day meeting.
I hooked up my original factory motor just to make sure the VFD was healthy and everything worked as it should.... I'm about to just put it back on there until I get my spare VFD back and can fiddle fart around with this.


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## Ischgl99 (Jul 19, 2022)

When this kind of cogging problem has happened to me in the past, it was incorrect motor parameters.  Maybe change your max speed setting from 90hz to 60hz and see if that does anything.  I wouldn’t think that should cause it, but maybe the latest firmware is calculating the V/f ratio based off of 90 and not 60 like it should.  If that is the cause, might explain why auto tune is not working.

Since the problem got better by changing the S curve, it sounds like the auto torque boost might not be working correctly.   Parameter A041 is set to auto in the parameters you posted, switching that to off might work too.


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## mksj (Jul 19, 2022)

The base speed is set to 60 Hz, these motors are rated to 2-3X their base speed (5-6K RPM with full Hp). I run these motors all the time, and have not encountered any cogging. The whine you hear with Auto-Tune is specific to that testing procedure, it has nothing to do with regular operation, and these inverter vector motors are designed to operate at the higher carrier frequencies. A vector motor can only be run off of a VFD, and requires the VFD to detect the motor parameters. As I mentioned these motors are quite a bit different then the Hitachi Standard, one reason where the Auto-Tune is important and then making sure that the VFD is running off of the new parameters. Every VFD manufacturer is different in this regard, and I have had cases where the VFD-Motor just wouldn't work together. I have not seen this with the Marathon, Baldor, Lincoln inverter/vector motors and the VFD's that I have used from Hitachi, Yaskawa, Teco and Automation Direct. 

If it works as currently configured, then leave it alone and move on.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 19, 2022)

*Breaking news: Auto-Tune works.*

I talked to tech support at drives warehouse, again, awesome guys.


He recommended playing with the base and max frequencies. He said to try 60/60 or something higher than 60 for base. I set it to 75hz base, 90 max. The tune ran fine. 


He also said to double check B022 (Overload restriction level) but I do not understand what the numbers are for this. 










The motor seems to want a little longer acceleration time (4.5s) than I'd like, but I'm OK with it. This is with the motor constants set from the auto tune, sensor-less vector, and a belt that sounds like someone in latex pants rolling around in a shower curtain.


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## mksj (Jul 19, 2022)

B022 is the % motor overload for up to 1 minute. If accessed through the Hitachi WJ200 software it shows up as %, if accessed through the keypad it shows up as amps. So you take the motor name plate FLA x % = overload amps. Default is 150%, which is what is use for stock newer motors, inverter/vector rated I use 170 or 180% which can give you higher torque for low speed cutting that isn't prolonged. Older motors I usually set this at 120% along with lower carrier frequency and a few other parameters to be gentler on the motor. Many VFD's cannot go to 200%, and it can cause motor over heating on fan cooled motors, TENV are designed to work down to almost 0 speed. Getting the motor base speed and poles is important, essentially by raising the base speed it is changing the V/Hz pattern at what motor speed the volts peak at, after which the Hz continues to rise but the voltage remains the same. In constant torque not in SV mode you can dial in different V/Hz curves which can help starting heavier loads. There are also some set points along the V/Hz curve depending on the VFD manufacture. If I was sitting in front of your machine/VFD I could probably dial it in for you, but usually the VFD in SV with automatic torque boost should take care of this.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 19, 2022)

>If accessed through the Hitachi WJ200 software it shows up as %, if accessed through the keypad it shows up as amps
Ah! That's where I was confused... 


I'll have new belts tonight and will run it for a while.


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## LVLAaron (Jul 19, 2022)

FYI Gates Tri-Power belts are really awesome.


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