# Is a bench classified as tooling?



## Mauser lover (Aug 24, 2018)

I'm building a bench for my lathe! What fun! Take a look at what I have and tell me if I missed anything before I make this all but permanent and put the top on it. Or, if you have a stroke of genius and have a great idea for an addition that I might not have forgotten but is a good idea... I'll gladly steal that idea too! 

It is a bunch of 4x4s, glued and screwed at joints, with sheathing grade plywood on the back and sides to resist wracking (I hope). I'm not an engineer, and as far as I can tell, never will be, so let me know if it needs to be bigger. 

My lathe is a 12x36 no-name from a country far away across the Pacific. China? Taiwan? I am guessing Taiwan, as this lathe is probably from the '80s. It's somewhat similar to a similarly sized Grizzly 9249, but... close only counts with horse shoes and hand grenades, right? 

Question number one... How much does this thing weigh? My guess would be about 750 lbs? If you've got a guess feel free to guess for me. 

What about leveling it? I've got leg levelers on my bench, but I've got eighteen legs. I know it will move, and eighteen legs are going to be a bit of a pain to make level enough for a machinist level. I've got six holes to mount the lathe. I'm thinking of trying to use one bolt in each hole to both hold it down and up. Bear with this illustration. Picture a bolt, coming up through my worktop. We'll start with the bolt head, under the tabletop. Bolt, washer, wood table material, washer, nut to hold the table tight, nut to hold up the lathe, washer, lathe, washer, nut. Will six 5/8 inch bolts hold up and hold down a lathe of this magnitude without problems? 

I've got pictures attached (I hope) of my bench skeleton, the bolt holes at the tail and head of my lathe (four holes at the head, two at the tail), and a picture of my lathe that I took directly after getting it into my shop. 

Thanks for the help for a wannabe hobby-machinist!


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## vtcnc (Aug 24, 2018)

Mauser lover said:


> I'm building a bench for my lathe! What fun!



I'm building one as well right now, and it is a fun project...



Mauser lover said:


> Question number one... How much does this thing weigh? My guess would be about 750 lbs? If you've got a guess feel free to guess for me.



Are you asking about the lathe, or the bench? The way that bench is built, I imagine it is closing in on the lathe! Ideally, the bench is heavier than the lathe but most people here will tell you that for the hobby, a level, sturdy bench is good enough.



Mauser lover said:


> What about leveling it? I've got leg levelers on my bench, but I've got eighteen legs.



I think you will have trouble leveling this because you have too many leveling points. If that were my bench, I'd span the bottoms with a stringer and level it on four corners. Less is more for leveling in this case. Otherwise, you may end up fighting with that top to get it level what with so many points reacting with each other. My two cents and maybe somebody else on the forum can offer up a counterpoint to my opinion here.

Most importantly, looks like you are having some fun! Thanks for sharing.


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## Mauser lover (Aug 24, 2018)

Actually... I utterly despise working with dead tree carcasses. They don't grow square, or straight, and they warp! My next bench will not be 4x4s. Oh well. Projects are fun anyway. That's kinda why this forum is here... 

I was actually asking about the weight of the lathe. I can still move the bench by myself so it isn't probably as heavy as the lathe yet... No top of course, but... I'll put a shelf about ten inches from the floor, where you see the 2x4s and load it up with concrete until I get enough steel scrap to conveniently store there.

My plan is to level the four legs most directly under the lathe, and run the others to the floor after the fact to get it close. But! What I really want to do is get the lathe up off the benchtop and level it independently, but only if this is a good idea! Anyone else do it this way? What do you do instead?

Yes, having fun. Always. I'd play video games or some other useless hobby if building almost usable things was less fun!


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## francist (Aug 24, 2018)

I don't think there should be much concern about the carcase supporting the weight of the machine -- that is a very robust structure you've got going. And 5/8" diameter bolts shouldn't present any problems either, the machine is not over-the-top heavy. 

What I'm not sure about is where your chip pan will come into play. You've not included it in the blow-by-blow line-up of how the machine fixes to the base. Would you think the levellers might be hard to get at if they are between the chip pan and the table top surface?

I would also give some consideration to what material your work top surface will be, and this applies back to any leveller devices as well. While the bolts will be adequately strong, they will easily have the capacity to crush a wood work surface if they're tightened to any real degree. Not crush it to beyond use, but possibly crush it enough to make levelling and shimming an annoyance. You know, the washer under the nut sinks in to the soft wood top a bit, then it's a bugger to try to get a feeler gauge in there, yadda yadda yadda. Maybe you want to consider some wider bearing pads where your levelling screws are? I don't know, I always like sitting a machine base onto good hard surface if possible. 

You may have already thought this through and it's just me not seeing the full intent. Good luck with it.

-frank


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## mickri (Aug 24, 2018)

One thing that I do quite often when working in wood is thread the holes that bolts go through.  Threading the hole keeps the bolt from moving and elongating the hole and you don't have to be able to reach both ends to tighten the bolt and nut.  I first learned this from a friend who worked on boats.  On boats you rarely can reach both ends at the same time.  You might not even need a tap.  Even on hardwood most bolts will self thread into a slightly undersize  hole.

In your case thread the bolt with a big fender washer up from underneath and put a fender washer with a nylock nut against the table top..  That bolt won't go anywhere.  Then another nylock nut and a fender washer that the lathe feet will rest on.  To level the lathe you screw the nylock nut up or down.  Once you have the lathe level to your satisfaction secure it in place with another nylock nut.   Using nylock nuts will keep the nuts from moving with vibration. That's what I would do. 

And you probably don't need to glue the joints.  4x4's and 2x4's will expand and contract so much that the glue joints will fail over time.


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## Mauser lover (Aug 25, 2018)

francist said:


> What I'm not sure about is where your chip pan will come into play. You've not included it in the blow-by-blow line-up of how the machine fixes to the base. Would you think the levellers might be hard to get at if they are between the chip pan and the table top surface?
> 
> I would also give some consideration to what material your work top surface will be, and this applies back to any leveller devices as well. While the bolts will be adequately strong, they will easily have the capacity to crush a wood work surface if they're tightened to any real degree. Not crush it to beyond use, but possibly crush it enough to make levelling and shimming an annoyance. You know, the washer under the nut sinks in to the soft wood top a bit, then it's a bugger to try to get a feeler gauge in there, yadda yadda yadda. Maybe you want to consider some wider bearing pads where your levelling screws are? I don't know, I always like sitting a machine base onto good hard surface if possible.
> 
> -frank



Oops. Forgot the chip pan. Also amended to include nylocks and fender washers. Bolt, fender washer, wood table material, CHIP TRAY, fender washer, nylock to hold the table tight, nylock to hold up the lathe, big beefy fender washer, lathe, normal washer, nylock. 

I also forgot to say what the tabletop is going to be... I've got two sheets of 3/4 Luan that is somewhere in the vicinity of 11-ply. One layer or two? I am kinda leaning toward two (that's why I have both sheets), but I could probably be persuaded to go down to one, if my leveling bolt/nuts will be sufficient to hold the lathe off the plywood. I'll use the plywood on something else for sure. 



mickri said:


> One thing that I do quite often when working in wood is thread the holes that bolts go through.  Threading the hole keeps the bolt from moving and elongating the hole and you don't have to be able to reach both ends to tighten the bolt and nut.  I first learned this from a friend who worked on boats.  On boats you rarely can reach both ends at the same time.  You might not even need a tap.
> 
> In your case thread the bolt with a big fender washer up from underneath and put a fender washer with a nylock nut against the table top..  That bolt won't go anywhere.  Then another nylock nut and a fender washer that the lathe feet will rest on.  To level the lathe you screw the nylock nut up or down.  Once you have the lathe level to your satisfaction secure it in place with another nylock nut.   Using nylock nuts will keep the nuts from moving with vibration. That's what I would do.



Thanks for the tip on the threading wood. That sounds really handy, although this thing won't float for sure! 

I think I got the drift of your nylocks and fender washers in my bolt lineup. Make sure I caught your drift though. One thing about that though, the lathe doesn't really have feet. It has a long flat foot (I guess you could call it), one on each end, that was made to sit flat on your bench. Is it going to be okay to jack that off the surface of the table with the bolt just sitting on six fender washers? These are the washers I'm thinking for that part... 

https://www.zoro.com/zoro-select-fender-washer-58-bolt-st-3-od-pk5-z9671/i/G0380947/

Although that's pretty pricy... I might scrounge around and look for some 1/4" plate steel to make my own washers. Do you figure just the washers would work though? 

Wow... long post! Thanks for the help!


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## Mauser lover (Aug 25, 2018)

Good grief, no way am I just jacking that up on four washers... I totally forgot about cast iron having a nasty tendency to crack under too much stress... I don't think those bolt-holes will hold it if any stress was applied in any way other than straight up and down...

I'm going to make a one-piece "washer" (elevator? platform? Whatever you want to call it) for each foot of the lathe. I'll use that in place of the fender washers, and that will hopefully help hold everything together while spreading out the load. 1/4" mild steel plate enough you think? 5/16?


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## francist (Aug 25, 2018)

Yup, much better plan! 

The thicker the better. I don't think I would go any less than 5/16" and would probably aim for something in the 3/8" to 1/2" mark. Depends a bit on what you have available in your area too though. Hot rolled flat bar can be had at pretty decent widths and thicknesses for not to much money. Especially if they'll cut what you need.

-frank


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## mickri (Aug 25, 2018)

I have never seen fender washers that were 1/4" thick.  I would make them before I paid that much for fender washers.   The steel plate  is a very good idea.  Thicker the better.  That would spread the load out.  The chip tray sitting on the plywood would also help to spread the load out.  Will any of the mounting bolts be going through the 4x4 table supports?  That would be a good idea.  Long bolts can be rather expensive.  I have used threaded rod cut to length with nuts on each end in lieu of bolts.  Threaded rod is not very expensive and you can cut it to whatever length you need.  

Looks like you are getting it figured out


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## Mauser lover (Aug 25, 2018)

I have a metals supplier and they are only... three hours away. But we do get up to Lexington often enough. Well... too often. On the bright side, they don't have a minimum order! Plastered that particular advertisement all over their website.  I requested a quote already. If not, there is always fleabay. 

I'm sure those "fender washers" are for fenders on... tanks? Other armored vehicles? 

Yes, all the bolts are going through the supports, not just plywood. And the chip tray is so flimsy that I wouldn't count it to be useful for spreading any load at all. 

Are nylocks better than using jam nuts? Obviously I could use half as many nuts, but I'm okay with having the lathe another inch or so higher anyway... Kinda prefer the jam nuts actually now that I think about it. 

Okay, where I'm at now... 

Bolt (or nut and rod if I find some threaded rod instead), fender washer, wood table material, chip tray, fender washer, nylock to hold the table tight, nylock to hold up the lathe, fancy-schmancy custom steel washer-like plate with bolt holes, lathe, normal washer, nylock.


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## mickri (Aug 25, 2018)

Attached is a copy of the instructions for my craftsman 12x36 lathe.  It includes a section on leveling the lathe and leveling the bench.  Thought that it might help you out. 

 In looking at the picture of your bench it looks like it is sitting on a plywood floor.  If it is how sturdy and stable is that floor?  What is underneath?  Can you add more support underneath the floor?  No matter how stable that floor is it will move with the changing seasons.  How much is anybody's guess.  You mentioned that you had two sheets of plywood.  I would think about putting one sheet on the floor and setting the bench on that sheet of plywood.   The plywood won't level out the floor but it might help to stabilize the floor. 

Jam nuts should work.  You would just have to be careful that you don't move the alignment nut when you tighten the jam nut.


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## TerryH (Aug 26, 2018)

Mauser lover said:


> Good grief, no way am I just jacking that up on four washers... I totally forgot about cast iron having a nasty tendency to crack under too much stress... I don't think those bolt-holes will hold it if any stress was applied in any way other than straight up and down...
> 
> I'm going to make a one-piece "washer" (elevator? platform? Whatever you want to call it) for each foot of the lathe. I'll use that in place of the fender washers, and that will hopefully help hold everything together while spreading out the load. 1/4" mild steel plate enough you think? 5/16?



I attached 1/4" plate to the bottom of my late's feet to spread the load and made leveling plates that are bolted to the bench. Made getting the ways parallel quite simple.

Build thread here...

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/thr...m-using-shop-made-levelers.72014/#post-604270


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## Mauser lover (Aug 26, 2018)

Ah, yes... my floor. There are basically two joists that run the same direction as the bench underneath the plywood flooring. Atop the plywood I have fixed 2x4s perpendicular to the joists, directly under each of my 4x4s that you can see on the top of my bench. 

Ultimately, I realize this isn't ideal, and I hope this is not the final resting place for this lathe. The plan is to buy property somewhere close and pour a slab for my next shop, wherever that ends up being. That's probably a few years down the road though, so I'm just doing the best I can with what I've got. I do realize this bench will move quite a bit, but I'm trying to get the bench to be "good enough for the girls I go with" with a separate and simple/quick way to level the lathe separate from the bench. So... that's my floor! 

Yes! I saw your build thread, which is what gave my the idea to do this instead! Of course, not being an engineer, I'm going to make sure it is good enough by adding weight to it... I'll probably get some 1/2 plate.... Plus, my lathe is bigger than yours. 

That bench that was recommended in the Craftsman booklet looked... a little flimsy! Which might just mean that mine is a wee bit overbuilt... Like I said, if you don't know the math like a proper engineer, just throw extra weight at it!


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## mickri (Aug 26, 2018)

I think that you got it down and you should be fine.  You will probably need to check the level as the seasons change but with the adjustable studs that should be relatively easy.

I agree that the bench in the craftsman instruction booklet looks a little flimsy.   What I thought was interesting was how small the recommended shims were to level the lathe.  The bench that came with my lathe is similar to it but is made out 2" angle iron welded together.  The top is true 2" x 6" hardwood planks that are somehow fastened together and then bolted to the angle iron frame.


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