# Do you suffer from "Quality Creep"?



## graham-xrf (Nov 7, 2020)

You know how it is - you're putting back the rad on the old pickup, and the orange-looking bolts all end up as anti-shake shouldered stainless?

I suppose "quality creep" could slide in either direction unless driven hard by being a contender for "_Hobby Machinist Tightwad of the Year_", but except for sometimes getting lucky with purchasing stuff from Chinesia, my trend is generally "upwards". I think one knows when it has gone too far when the spare piece of tool-steel rod gets used instead of the chunk of mild that has been the box so long, it's surface can no longer be called "patina from the good old days"!


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## matthewsx (Nov 7, 2020)

Wait.... 

"_Hobby Machinist Tightwad of the Year_" ?

How do I get in on this competition?

John


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## graham-xrf (Nov 7, 2020)

matthewsx said:


> Wait....
> "_Hobby Machinist Tightwad of the Year_" ?
> How do I get in on this competition?
> John


Oh dear - did I say something off topic from off-topic's topic?
I guess ..

1. Maybe having a look through member's pictures of cheapskate builds.
2. Very poor purchases, exceptional journeys to drag home junk.
3. Tales of stuff machined that came apart on the machine while still being made?

Maybe, the only way to get this right is have HM members vote in postings that featured exceptional penny-pinching. HM members wishing to compete can send in pictures of their success in this endeavour, or HM members can vote in postings from other members that they consider displays this exceptional trait (kinda ratting on them - I guess)

Stuff like a workshop knocked up from old crating palettes and rusty recycled corrugated iron roofing, or  a collection of plastic bottles of various fluids more than 2 decades old, some without significant contents.


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## Packard V8 (Nov 7, 2020)

Thoughts:

It's an individual value judgement.  I build obsolete engines and we hold most clearances into the tenths.  Sometimes, it would cost much time and money to get a crusty, rusty old engine as good as it can be.  Some customers would go nuts at the thought of putting an engine of together with a half-a-thou more than he'd researched and decided was ideal. The next guy in the door is, "Fukkit, looser is faster. Git 'er done and git 'er on the track!"

The time/money equation is a sliding scale.  Just turned 75 and have finally realized even though I don't have that much money, I've now got more money than time.

jack vines


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## Superburban (Nov 7, 2020)

I see my quality creep quite a bit during a project. Start out with all the best intentions, and go for some where near the top, but as time goes on I let the quality goal slip like it is on an oiled pole.


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## DavidR8 (Nov 7, 2020)

I start with the best intentions but my ineptitude and inexperience drag me down the quality ladder.
In my head I'm Robin Renzetti, in real life I'm a hack with an angle grinder and a hacksaw


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## pontiac428 (Nov 7, 2020)

I want to be the first to nominate John Matthews, for running across the very live 101 freeway to find a rusty, broken piece of iron.  That is what I call a "money is no object cheapskate."  The broken gap plate had no value, but to him it represented a last chance- enough to walk the freeway for!

On quality creep, I'm with you.  I call it turd polish, and I tend to polish turds to a high shine that belies the reality that polished turds are still turds.  In other words, I won't be selling a vehicle for more than I've got into it in this lifetime.


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## graham-xrf (Nov 7, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> I want to be the first to nominate John Matthews, for running across the very live 101 freeway to find a rusty, broken piece of iron.  That is what I call a "money is no object cheapskate."  The broken gap plate had no value, but to him it represented a last chance- enough to walk the freeway for!
> 
> On quality creep, I'm with you.  I call it turd polish, and I tend to polish turds to a high shine that belies the reality that polished turds are still turds.  In other words, I won't be selling a vehicle for more than I've got into it in this lifetime.


I thought that would be the HM definition of "road kill acquisition".
But - do I remember right that your vehicle was the one with almost zero original bolts?


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## middle.road (Nov 7, 2020)

I choose to not answer on the grounds of incriminating myself...    

I did apply blue loc-tite to the bolts when I replaced the radiator a couple of months ago, I did not do "_anti-shake shouldered stainless_...", vehicle isn't worth it. As a matter of fact I went out to start it the other day, and the PS pump was empty. 

Have I put SS SHCS's in place of OEM fasteners at other times? -Yes
Do I need to sort out my box of scrap and pitch the very "patina'd" worthless pieces? -Yes
Do I save stuff that causes my Better Half to raise an eyebrow and shake her head? -Yes
Like John, have I had to stop on the highway to retrieve something that has fallen off? -Yes, carefully.
Have I had to re-do an item with better material due to failure of the first? -Yeah, too many times.
And the list goes on, and on, and on. . .


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## DavidR8 (Nov 7, 2020)

middle.road said:


> Like John, have I had to stop on the highway to retrieve something that has fallen off? -Yes, carefully.


Slight edit for my tendencies:
Like John, have I had to stop on the highway to retrieve something that has fallen off _*someone else's vehicle*_? -Yes, carefully.


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## C-Bag (Nov 7, 2020)

Guilty as charged, and proud of it. It’s why I called it my junkyard welding cart because almost all of it was repurposed. Most of my acquisitions happen on my daily dog walks. The start of the walk is along Pecho rd that is the only road into Montana de Oro State Park so very often I find hardware and pieces that fall off the cars, RV’s, motor cycles and bicycles. Found bolts, a good chunk of Delrin, quick releases of bikes, a small sand bag, even a high end digital camera! Found this yesterday. Don’t know what I’ll use it for but it was just cool to leave it. Looks like the whole tensioner for a serpentine belt.


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## Karl_T (Nov 7, 2020)

As an engineer i have a far better term: Creeping Elegance


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## graham-xrf (Nov 7, 2020)

I suppose I had better confess to having had the firm that does MOT car inspections (a UK thing) keep the old, now replaced, anti-sway bar for me. I didn't know that an anti-sway bar could become junk, but apparently it can. Something to do with worn bushing ends, it seems. My thoughts were that anti-sway bar is steel, and it's springy stuff too. Better hang onto it!

I had no idea whether such steel is ever good for anything, and it is only in this company that I would admit to having indulged in something very close to "skip diving", which is a Brit expression equivalent to "dumpster raiding", This for steel to be hoarded toward a non-specific purpose, undefined for the present!


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## C-Bag (Nov 7, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> I suppose I had better confess to having had the firm that does MOT car inspections (a UK thing) keep the old, now replaced, anti-sway bar for me. I didn't know that an anti-sway bar could become junk, but apparently it can. Something to do with worn bushing ends, it seems. My thoughts were that anti-sway bar is steel, and it's springy stuff too. Better hang onto it!
> 
> I had no idea whether such steel is ever good for anything, and it is only in this company that I would admit to having indulged in something very close to "skip diving", which is a Brit expression equivalent to "dumpster raiding", This for steel to be hoarded toward a non-specific purpose, undefined for the present!


When I was twisting wrenches for a living it was dilemma. I got to where I was just saving the cool bits and bobs. As storage got out of hand Mac Tools came up with these little trays that were made to go on top of a drawer, so there ya go. They still reside there and every place I ever worked guys checked with me first if they needed a parts that just was not available and would also give me their cool stuff. These trays have saved the day too many times. This is my effort to start organizing 50yrs of saving hardware.


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## graham-xrf (Nov 7, 2020)

Karl_T said:


> As an engineer i have a far better term: Creeping Elegance


You do have a point.
In making something, it can end up looking quite simple, and yet it works incredibly well, and "looks right". That during the making of it, there were possibly several re-makings of it, but on the way, the quality creep set in with refinements maybe not obvious in just a quick glance.

There are bits in my lathe re-build that nobody will see again without a stripdown, but I know they are in there, over-engineered, and I feel good about it!


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## graham-xrf (Nov 7, 2020)

C-Bag said:


> When I was twisting wrenches for a living it was dilemma. I got to where I was just saving the cool bits and bobs. As storage got out of hand Mac Tools came up with these little trays that were made to go on top of a drawer, so there ya go. They still reside there and every place I ever worked guys checked with me first if they needed a parts that just was not available and would also give me their cool stuff. These trays have saved the day too many times. This is my effort to start organizing 50yrs of saving hardware.


You hurt your case for "_Hobby Machinist Tightwad of the Year_", because of the value in how many times they saved the day, but I have to be impressed that your cheapskate saving of bits and bobs required such exceptional classy storage!

Kind of like providing a special outbuilding to stash the trash bins!


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## Packard V8 (Nov 7, 2020)

After fifty years of accumulating tools and spares of every description, I now count it as a serious personal failing if I have to go to the hardware store.


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## middle.road (Nov 7, 2020)

Packard V8 said:


> After fifty years of accumulating tools and spares of every description, I now count it as a serious personal failing if I have to go to the hardware store.


Ditto here. A run to the hardware store will cost at least one gallon of fuel, depending on the vehicle selected.
I've had 'acquaintances' who stop by to have something repaired only to question '_why_' do I have two cabinets full of fasteners and hardware.
"Why don't you just go to the store and buy it when you need it?" - _say what_?


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## brino (Nov 7, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> or a collection of plastic bottles of various fluids more than 2 decades old, some without significant contents.



...but I can't use them because the labels all fell off and I'm not sure which is which.
...and I can't get rid of them because I might need them!

-brino


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## Nogoingback (Nov 7, 2020)

I find that quality creep is generally self correcting.


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## addertooth (Nov 7, 2020)

When I am making a part, I DO have quality creep.   Each iteration is an evolution of the previous.  Sometimes it is something simple like, Hmmm If I take the RPMS up, and the feed down a bit, the finish is nicer.  Or, This part would work better, if it were a half inch longer.  Sometimes when I am making multiples of a doo-dad, I say "I like where the designed ended up, I need to scrap the first one, so they are all uniform".


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## mmcmdl (Nov 7, 2020)

middle.road said:


> Ditto here. A run to the hardware store will cost at least one gallon of fuel, depending on the vehicle selected.
> I've had 'acquaintances' who stop by to have something repaired only to question '_why_' do I have two cabinets full of fasteners and hardware.
> "Why don't you just go to the store and buy it when you need it?" - _say what_?



I'm the opposite . I have a hardware store within a minute walking . Why should I waste an hour or two trying to find a $4 oil filter wrench ? ( that's why I ended up with 17 at last count )


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## 7milesup (Nov 7, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Slight edit for my tendencies:
> Like John, have I had to stop on the highway to retrieve something that has fallen off _*someone else's vehicle*_? -Yes, carefully.


I was just thinking that as I was reading this thread.  My total acquisitions from stopping on the road are two adjustable wrenches.  Luckily for me, the roads around here are not very busy.  :/


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## brino (Nov 7, 2020)

I would be buried in rachet straps if it was safe to stop and pick them up around here!



I can only guess that further up the road there would be an array of fridges, stoves and pianos......


-brino


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## Aaron_W (Nov 7, 2020)

I have no idea what any of you are talking about.

Now excuse me while I go organize the misc odd size pieces of left over sheet rock, lumber and metal bits that I might use someday.


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## westerner (Nov 7, 2020)

Packard V8 said:


> After fifty years of accumulating tools and spares of every description, I now count it as a serious personal failing if I have to go to the hardware store.


Amen, Brother. Amen.


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## matthewsx (Nov 7, 2020)

Just to be clear....

I was very careful when I retrieved the gap section from Hwy. 101 and @Cooter Brown is working to make it good again for my lathe....

I'm looking forward to the day when I can worry about #Quality_Creep because my skills and facilities are capable of exceeding the needed specifications for the work I'm doing. Right now I'm trying to get a low end Chinese 13x40 lathe up to the minimum standard most of you would settle for. I don't know if I'll get there but I have to hope the effort will at least get me further along the path....

Cheers,

John


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## middle.road (Nov 8, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I have no idea what any of you are talking about.
> 
> Now excuse me while I go organize the misc odd size pieces of left over sheet rock, lumber and metal bits that I might use someday.


ah crud, are we dragging lumber and wood into this thread?
I'm in a deep hole there. Woodworking is my first love.
Not just the cutoffs from remodeling, but all the furniture grade walnut, oak, cedar, and other exotics I've been collecting over the years.
I have it stashed in the storage trailer, tractor shed, under the back porch and down in the storage room.
In that regard I am a hoarder of wood.


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## middle.road (Nov 8, 2020)

mmcmdl said:


> I'm the opposite . I have a hardware store within a minute walking . Why should I waste an hour or two trying to find a $4 oil filter wrench ? ( that's why I ended up with 17 at last count )


You're lucky there. Easy to see how you'd end up with multiples.


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## savarin (Nov 8, 2020)

I read quality creep a different way.
As I'm totally self taught and most of my projects have been somewhat lengthy I find I make what I thought at the time was a good job.
Later as my skill levels increased albeit slowly I just have to go back and re-do or re-design the part because I can see that it actually wasnt that good after all.


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## Buffalo21 (Nov 8, 2020)

pontiac428 said:


> I want to be the first to nominate John Matthews, for running across the very live 101 freeway to find a rusty, broken piece of iron.  That is what I call a "money is no object cheapskate."  The broken gap plate had no value, but to him it represented a last chance- enough to walk the freeway for!
> 
> On quality creep, I'm with you.  I call it turd polish, and I tend to polish turds to a high shine that belies the reality that polished turds are still turds.  In other words, I won't be selling a vehicle for more than I've got into it in this lifetime.



I was told you can not polish a turd, but they can be spray painted. Now putting lipstick on a pig is a totally different story...........


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## Aaron_W (Nov 8, 2020)

savarin said:


> I read quality creep a different way.
> As I'm totally self taught and most of my projects have been somewhat lengthy I find I make what I thought at the time was a good job.
> Later as my skill levels increased albeit slowly I just have to go back and re-do or re-design the part because I can see that it actually wasnt that good after all.



Plastic modelers say that is what the back of the display case is for.


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## tq60 (Nov 9, 2020)

Creep is different on long projects...

At first much attention and time to small details.

As time goes by attention shifts to not as small details as one determines they take too much time...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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