# Tell me about this 14-1/2 x 6’



## rwdenney (Aug 19, 2022)

My wife’s uncle bought this 14-1/2” swing by 6’ South Bend lathe many years ago with the intent of learning machine work. (He taught airplane mechanics at a community college after his first “retirement”, so he has skills.) He never got around to that, but his mechanic assistant has used it occasionally to make parts for the 1949 Woody the two of them finished last year. He’s aged out of it, but loves to sit in his “hangar” and keep company with whoever in his circle has a project. With Covid, that’s been just about nonexistent, so I want to spend some time with this lathe as much for his enjoyment as mine. And there is a chance that this lathe will come to me in the fullness of time. 

It’s a beast, and very dirty. Its been a catchall in the (very) old shed to which he appended his hangar about 40 years ago, but there seems to be oily grime on it far more that rust, for the most part. 

I poked around it this evening, doing a quick inspection. The ways appear to be unworn—I could not detect the slightest ridge. The compound handwheel is slightly stiff, but all the other wheels run smoothly. The compound lock may have been snug. 

(With all the pics I made, you’d think I’d have taken one picture of the whole thing. Sadly, you’d be wrong.)

















What can you tell me about the gearbox on this thing? I know there are three drive pulleys (and it appears to be on the highest speed and has been for living memory). I’m assuming the gearbox (which I managed not to photograph) is for the lead screw feed speed for the carriage. I can’t tell if this has a power-feed cross slide, but it probably does. 











The taper attachment is in place. I found a dead center to go with the Jacobs chuck that sits in the tail stock normally. 






The head stock is carrying a 3-jaw chuck, but there is a 4-jaw chuck on the floor next to it. There is a steady rest in the chip tray.






The tool post is the classic type—no quick-change here—but that could be added. I wasn’t able to get into the cabinet with “lathe stuff” in it—it at least has tooling but I was led to believe there’s more than just bits. Perhaps there is a set of collets in there. 






The motor has been replaced and is single-phase. I could not get to the motor’s ID tag to read its specs. It’s mounted in the cast base—this isn’t a bench configuration. 






Just to show that I’ve used it under power, I have a photo I made four years ago when I needed to chamfer an aluminum wheel spacer to fit over a hub that had an interfering fillet. I didn’t know how to bump it true, or to grind the bit appropriately to cut the aluminum, and it chattered a bit on the end of that long holder. But it worked well enough. I could do better now. 

I have the use of this lathe any time I want, so I’m scratching around for a project to get my feet wet with it.

The whole thing is about 7 feet long. 

How heavy is this thing? Can it be lifted from a single point? Uncle would like it to be in a different spot in the newer hangar area. He moved it to its current location using Egyptian technology, but the floor it sits on is not smooth. 

I think my first project will be to put some quality time into maintenance to make sure it’s in a state of good repair. I’ve ordered it downloaded the necessary literature to do that. 

Rick “who’ll take a box full of metrology stuff next time” Denney


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## SLK001 (Aug 19, 2022)

It appears to be a 1948-1950 era lathe.  Serial number can confirm.  It is a toolroom version, which means it was really clapped out at the factory.  It looks to have bronze bearings in the headstock, instead of the segmented cast iron used during the war.  It weights 2250 pounds.  Lift using the webbing between the ways and NOT around the outside.

It _*probably *_needs the felts replaced by now if they haven't been replaced in the last 30 years.


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## rwdenney (Aug 19, 2022)

SLK001 said:


> It appears to be a 1948-1950 era lathe.  Serial number can confirm.  It is a toolroom version, which means it was really clapped out at the factory.  It looks to have bronze bearings in the headstock, instead of the segmented cast iron used during the war.  It weights 2250 pounds.  Lift using the webbing between the ways and NOT around the outside.
> 
> It _*probably *_needs the felts replaced by now if they haven't been replaced in the last 30 years.


I gather that the tool-room model has (had!) tighter specs and/or more accessories, so I will take "clapped" to mean "slicked". (Not my usual definition )

2250 pounds. Oooh. I think that means taking some big stuff off of it and moving separately if we decide to push it around. It has never been leveled in its current spot, and I hardly dare to put a precision level across the ways. A gantry won't fit around it where it is, and we'll have to use an engine hoist, but we'll have to limit the extension and that may mean not being able to find the balance point. My engine hoist is limited to half a ton at full extension, and mine is bigger than Uncle's. 

I see felt kits for these on ebay, and I've ordered what purports to being a rebuild manual. And I have the parts document.

I should also, I suppose, order the serial-number card from South Bend, but I haven't uncovered the serial number just yet.

Thanks for the info!

Rick "appreciative" Denney


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## projectnut (Aug 19, 2022)

There's quite a bit of information about South Bend machinery over on the Vintage Machinery website.  Here's a link to the publications available for download.  There are several pieces that mention the 14 1/2' lathe, but I'm not sure how in depth they go.





__





						South Bend Lathe Works - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org
					





					vintagemachinery.org
				




Here's a link to a sales bulletin for the 14 1/2" lathes from the above list.



			http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/16660.pdf


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## tq60 (Aug 19, 2022)

Forklift is best bet.

Looks just like ours did.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## rwdenney (Aug 19, 2022)

I had seen that sales brochure, and it had lots of good info but not catalog numbers. But with those clues, I found a catalog (#25, 1946) at VM that shows the 8183C, and now understand that the leading "8" designates the tool-room model and the trailing "C" the six-foot bed (with three feet between centers). 

On the felts: When I moved the carriage over the ways, the motion left a track of fresh oil, which I take as a good sign. Not sure the felts are quite wiping the ways as well as one might hope, however. But if I take on the project of restoring it to a state of good repair (I am not the guy for full showroom restorations--I just want it to work properly), all that will get addressed.

A forklift is not an option, unfortunately. Just no room for it in any dimension.

Rick "machine skates may be an option for parts of any move, using an engine hoist to get ends over bumps" Denney


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## markba633csi (Aug 19, 2022)

Nice lathe- the toolroom version has the extra-precise leadscrew and generally tighter specs- The "Primo" version.
South Bend actually farmed their leadscrews out to another firm from what I read.
You can lighten it somewhat by taking things off- the more effort you expend the lighter it gets- to a point
Looks like it's set on the lowest speed: small pulley lower, large pulley upper (on spindle) gives lowest speed
Certainly the whole machine needs a good cleaning and felts replaced, probably should check the belts too
-M


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## tq60 (Aug 19, 2022)

It can be easily torn down, still heavy chunks but doable.

End legs can be a pain so support for bed a must.

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## rwdenney (Aug 19, 2022)

The V-belts look okay (for now) but the leather belt is showing signs of age. It still runs true and smooth, however.

The leadscrew for the carriage does not show a lot of wear--the threads do not look or feel worn. Yes, it's set for the slowest speed right now, and the surface rust on the lower pulley cone suggests it's been there for a long time--probably forever. I would sure want to polish those pulleys to a bright finish before running a leather belt on them.

I haven't looked at the belt joint to see how it is connected--glue, lacing, or hooks. If I need to replace that belt, I'll deal with that in the fullness of time. But I suspect leather can show all manner of surface imperfection and still be usable. Until it isn't. I doubt that the belt does crazy things when it breaks (unlike much higher-speed V-belts). I suspect the spindle just stops mid-operation with minimal excitement. So, I think I'll run it until it fails, unless it reaches the point of not transferring power. At its most recent use, it transmits power just fine.

Seems to me that removing the tail stock, the saddle, and the chuck will take off several hundred pounds and leave what's left below a ton. That's another extension notch on a hoist, which I think will be important. If I can use a toe jack to get the hoist under the head end, from the end, then I can use the same toe jack to lift the tail end onto machine skates and drag it along. I'm not unused to figuring out that sort of thing, if I can get the weight down just a bit.

I don't know what happened to the collet rack that is also supposed to be supplied with the tool-room version. But I've just scratched the surface of the archeology--much digging still needed.

Rick "it will have to go through a doorway" Denney


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## SLK001 (Aug 19, 2022)

The serial number is in the front on the extreme right hand side of the bed, stamped in the flat spot between the ways.  Look for it in the area shown in your third picture above.  It is right next to where the two screw heads are shown.


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## benmychree (Aug 19, 2022)

You could bolt 4x4 skids on the legs and roll it on pipes to move it.  Invest in SBs book "How to run a lathe".


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## rwdenney (Aug 19, 2022)

SLK001 said:


> The serial number is in the front on the extreme right hand side of the bed, stamped in the flat spot between the ways.  Look for it in the area shown in your third picture above.  It is right next to where the two screw heads are shown.


Yes, but next time I'm there. It's an hour away.

Rick "who'll go back ready for a deeper archeology and assessment--and the ability to get dirty" Denney


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## SLK001 (Aug 19, 2022)

You mentioned you bought "the book" and a felt kit.  Did you get the Ilion Industries book, _A Guide to Renovating the South Bend Lathe Models 10L - 13" - 14 ½" - 16" _?  Also, their felt kit?


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## rwdenney (Aug 19, 2022)

SLK001 said:


> You mentioned you bought "the book" and a felt kit.  Did you get the Ilion Industries book, _A Guide to Renovating the South Bend Lathe Models 10L - 13" - 14 ½" - 16" _?  Also, their felt kit?



Yes to the book, but not yet to the felt kit. I need to have a plan, and more inspection. 

Rick “not in any hurry” Denney


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## tq60 (Aug 19, 2022)

When we did ours there was not felt fit for the 14.5 so we ordered an assortment from grainger and made out own.

Since you have no ridge the wear is likely minimum but if you are taking a hoist to move it then look at full tear down to move.

Less risk of rolling it over.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## 682bear (Aug 19, 2022)

tq60 said:


> When we did ours there was not felt fit for the 14.5 so we ordered an assortment from grainger and made out own.
> 
> Since you have no ridge the wear is likely minimum but if you are taking a hoist to move it then look at full tear down to move.
> 
> ...



I bought the felt kit for the 16" SB to use on my 14½" and modified what didn't fit...

But I'm pretty sure they offer a kit for the 14½ now...

-Bear


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## rwdenney (Sep 4, 2022)

I happened upon a nearby auction of collectible (and not so collectible) farm equipment nearby. That sale included some highly desirable antique tractors and implements, and even a 1902 curved-dash Oldsmobile in fully running condition. Lots of money was changing hands and it was fun to watch.

Saw these:






My wife posted a pic of me looking at the lathes on her family chat.

I received a message from Uncle’s wife and son: Do not buy a lathe at the auction unless it does something the South Bend does not. I was told that the South Bend will be mine.

Not that I was going to buy one of those lathes in any case. I’m no Keith Rucker—those would require expensive restoration to be usable at any level and that’s not my thing. The power hacksaw behind the lathes was sort-of interesting but there was no drive motor and it was also glued together with rust. Even if these were free, I couldn’t afford them.

Rick “locked up solid with rust” Denney


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## benmychree (Sep 4, 2022)

More scrap iron.  The lathe with the quick change gearbox is from the very early 1900s, an improved model came out in about 1907. the odd thing about the one shown is thar the lead screw is inside the bed, partially covered by the overhang of the front tailstock way, imagine how much chips and crud that accumulated on the leadscrew ---, also note the half nut lever at the lefthand end of the apron, not at all convenient to operate whhile also holding onto the carriage hand crank.


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## rwdenney (Oct 13, 2022)

Okay, time to start thinking about next steps. I've already been thinking about moving the lathe, and there will be more on that in the coming weeks. For now, though, I'm starting to think about tooling. I see that Precision Matthews sells what I assume to be reasonably well vetted tool-posts and tooling and reasonable prices. I'm considering a BXA toolpost, shown here:






						Wedge Quick Change Tool Post Set, BXA Size – Precision Matthews Machinery Co.
					






					www.precisionmatthews.com
				










This includes a knurling tool--push type--which I think the 14-1/2" South Bend can probably handle. And it includes a couple of turning holders, a boring bar holder, and a parting tool holder. I think the size is probably about right--the lathe might handle the larger CXA, but that makes a deeper hole in the wallet probably for no good reason for what I will do.

And then I'm considering PM's insert indexable tooling:






						BXA Master Turning/Boring Tool Set – Precision Matthews Machinery Co.
					






					www.precisionmatthews.com
				









To this, I'd need to add the threading tool:






						1/2 Internal/External Threading Tool Set – Precision Matthews Machinery Co.
					






					www.precisionmatthews.com
				








All of this would be less than half a kilobuck and it would be pretty comprehensive. Anything else I needed I could grind from HSS.

So, is this a reasonable line of thinking? I know that carbide tooling works best on lathes that can take a heavier cut, but I think this South Bend is up to that.

I also know that many prefer the Multifix-style tool post rather than the Aloris-style tool post, but the only  source of those at reasonable cost seem to not be shipped from U.S. addresses, if you know what I mean. Maybe I'll rethink that in the future, but I sure see lots of people working very effectively with the more common Aloris-style tool post.

I will be looking at the lathe more this weekend, and will try to get a sense of what tooling is coming with it. But I know that it only has a lantern post and nothing in the line of quick-change tool posts. The main thing I'm curious about is the collet holder sleeve and drawbar, which should have been included with this toolroom-spec lathe. I want to put eyes on that stuff. There should be a follow rest that I also haven't seen.

Rick "advice appreciated" Denney


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## RandyWilson (Oct 13, 2022)

I have a 14 1/2. I have a BXA on it. It's too small. Go CXA.


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## 682bear (Oct 13, 2022)

RandyWilson said:


> I have a 14 1/2. I have a BXA on it. It's too small. Go CXA.



I agree... my 14 ½ came with a BXA. It was too small... I replaced it with a CXA.

-Bear


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## Winegrower (Oct 13, 2022)

Yes, CXA size toolpost and holders, and get 3/4” shank tools, not the half inch.


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## Shotgun (Oct 13, 2022)

I have found the 3/4" shank tools to be exponentially more expensive than the 1/2", though.  And not nearly as readily available.


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## sdelivery (Oct 13, 2022)

Most of this stuff is expensive new....
There are many sources for new and used tooling.
I buy used for the most part.


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## rwdenney (Oct 13, 2022)

You guys are spending my money! Ha!

I see that PM sells a CXA kit, but there are lots of others on Amazon. 

But PM doesn't sell 3/4" insert holders. I see several different brands of those (given that the stuff at MSC, KBC, McMaster, and so on are much more expensive)--primarily OSCARBIDE and Accusize Industrial. Any issue with those? I know the inserts may be cheap, but if they hold standard inserts then that will improve as I replace them. 

Tool post set: https://www.amazon.com/Accusize-Too...0333/dp/B00HWFMOS2?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1

Indexable insert set: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0812BKG1...olid=3J604AKL7X4JP&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

I see much less expensive choices on ebay, but with less definable U.S. presence. But it makes me wonder if all these are the same. I have this feeling that KBC's house brand (and even PM) are the same products with more markup to cover the costs of a U.S. support presence. That would be much more important for the  machine itself to my thinking.

I know that you get what you pay for, but I also know that I'm not going to buy this stuff at all from Dorian or Aloris any time soon.

So, tell me how I'm screwing up 

Rick "wants to take advantage of the size of the lathe with a functional basic set of tooling" Denney


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## Shotgun (Oct 13, 2022)

I put one of those cheap tool posts (AXA size) on a Craftsman 12x36, and it worked just peachy.  So well, that I put the $250, piston-type, in the CXA size on my Sebastian.  I don't know what I could get from Aloris or Dorian that would be worth 10x the price.

I've got a few 3/4" toolholders.  They seem to be more rigid, but truthfully the 1/2" set work just as well and was only $50 for seven toolholders.  I got a half dozen ten-packs of inserts from Alibaba at about $1.50 per insert.  I wouldn't trust them for production work. . . but, then again, I'm not doing production work.


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## rwdenney (Oct 13, 2022)

Yeah, one advantage of going big with the tool post but smaller with the tooling is that bigger stuff will fit, when the small stuff proves to be too small...

..._if_ it proves to be too small.

And then when I tell the go-big-or-go-home guys that they were right all along, and I get some 3/4" tooling, the half-inch stuff would be quite useful for someone who has a smaller lathe, or for smaller projects. There's no reason why  one can't install smaller tooling in the CXA blocks.

Has anyone used those Accusize tools? If so, do you cuss them or do they just work?

Rick "lots of choice to contemplate" Denney


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## Shotgun (Oct 13, 2022)

They just work.  At least for me.
One thing is that I can make about 1/8" DOC passes.  Seems about all that ol' Sebastian's 2Hp can take.  The bits for the larger tools cost about 4x as much (if I can find cheap ones), but I'm still only using that 1/8" near each tip.  The $1.50 bits are about 1/4" to 1/2" on the side.  Going bigger didn't do much for me other than making it harder to get into tight spots.

I tend to choke up on the tools as much as possible.  If I"m doing a long cut with little to no shoulder, I may barely have the tip of the tool sticking out of the holder.  If I needed to go out an inch or two to reach down into a valley, I might be singing a different tune.


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## 682bear (Oct 13, 2022)

I have an offshore e-bay special CXA on my 14½... I also have an Aloris CXA on my 14" Hendey. The Aloris is nicer... but the offshore brand works fine. I also have 2 offshore brand BXA's on other lathes... they work fine, also.

I would buy the ¾" toolholders over the ½"...

-Bear


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## gard (Oct 14, 2022)

I have what  I think is the same or similar machine, it did not come with any kind of collet system. I have moved it a couple of times using a standard engine hoist. I did not remove anything that was bolted down except perhaps the tailstock. I have had it about 40 years and still use the lantern tool post with HSS bits. Someday I will perhaps end up with insert carbide tooling but most of the cheepo ebay stuff I have tried has not worked as well as HSS for most things. I have some brazed carbide bits. I know quick change tool holders are well, quicker but usually I am not in a rush anyway...
My thought is run with what you got, at least for awhile.


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## rwdenney (Oct 14, 2022)

Mine is the tool room version, so it at least came originally with a collet system, including the rack but I’m not sure about the collets. 

I don’t know what kind of tooling Uncle had hidden in the cabinet, but I will be investigating that tomorrow. 

Rick “not hitting any buy buttons yet” Denney


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## rwdenney (Oct 15, 2022)

Made it back over there today and consummated the deal. I am now the owner of a South Bend 14-1/2” lathe. 







Much more investigation today. 

1. The serial number is 168940, which I think dates it to 1946. Definitely pre-‘47 because of the old-style number. 






2. It uses the 2-1/4”-6tpi threaded spindle nose speced for that period. It also has the single-tumbler QCGB that they used at that time. 











3. The 3-jaw chuck is a 7.5” Rohm. It works smoothly and just needs to be cleaned up. I found two additional sets of jaws. 






4. The 4-jaw chuck didn’t have a label I could find, but despite the surface dust is well lubed internally and all four jaws move smoothly. The same chuck key works for both chucks. 






5. The collet system is mounted on a threaded adapter that screws onto the spindle nose, and uses a two-stage set of collets. I’m a beginner on the topic of collet systems (except for ER collets and the 8mm watchmaker lathe collets I use on my Peerless). This one is unfamiliar to me, but that’s probably just my ignorance. What can you tell me about it? All the collets are oily, with a couple of exceptions. I did not see any 4c or 5c-type collets or a drawbar. I also didn’t see the spanner for this holder, but it’s probably there somewhere. 











6. Oil was standing in the cups. It does not appear that this lathe was ever run dry. 






7. I found a 7-1/2” face plate threaded for the spindle nose. I would have preferred to find a larger one, but I don’t know why. 






8. The motor is a Dayton 5K482, 2-HP, wired for 110v. I think he just plugged it into the wall, and it has a standard NEMA 15-amp plug on the cord. The motor pulls 25 amps, though, so I’ll probably install a 30-amp, 120 VAC RV circuit for this late. I already have the breakers for it, and a fresh spool of 10-Ga. Romex. I may also rewire it for 240 VAC. 






9. There are lots of goodies—boring bars, lots of HSS cutting tools, a couple of tool holders, scraps, tapered stock, dead centers, etc. on Monday I’ll dig further and catalog what’s there. 
















I have a set of low-profile machine skates on the way that can be pinned to the anchor-bolt holes—that’s just the first step in planning the move. Much more to be done there. 

Rick “back on Monday for cleaning” Denney


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## RandyWilson (Oct 16, 2022)

The spindle should be 2-3/8 x6, a size shared with the 16 inch lathes.13's and heavy 10's are 2 1/4 x8. I don't recognize the collet system. South Bend used 3C and then 5C. Both the spindle sizes above used 5C.


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## rwdenney (Oct 16, 2022)

RandyWilson said:


> The spindle should be 2-3/8 x6, a size shared with the 16 inch lathes.13's and heavy 10's are 2 1/4 x8. I don't recognize the collet system. South Bend used 3C and then 5C. Both the spindle sizes above used 5C.


In the late 40’s, SB converted the spindle in the 14-1/2 to a larger size, going from a maximum collet size of 3/4” using 4C collets to a maximum size of 1” using 5C collets. Both were available for a time, apparently. 

Here are some excerpts from the accessories catalog of 1950, when both were available. First shows the collet drawbars:




Notice the two listings for 14-1/2” lathes—for No. 4 collets and No. 5 collets, respectively. 

And here is the listing for the accessory faceplates, showing the different threads. 




The smaller spindle uses a 2-1/4” x 6tpi thread, and the larger is the 2-3/8” x 6tpi thread as used in the 16. 

The 13’s also came in two sizes. 

In any case, mine is a 2-1/4” spindle. Here’s the back of the collet chuck:



(I left it big so you can zoom in on it.)

I would have preferred the much more common 2-3/8-6, or even the 2-1/4-8, but it is what it is. There are a few of the collets in the pile of stuff, but I don’t know what sizes, nor do I know how much they’ll shrink and stay true. I’ll have to pull the 3-jaw and mount this to see what I’m dealing with. I don’t know what shape is inside the spindle as of yet. I’ll take some measuring equipment Monday. 

Edit: The inner sleeve of the collet is 1-1/2” in diameter, and the opening in the clamp ring is 2”. I see a collet that is over an inch inside—exploring the full width of the through bore. But I don’t see more than 8 collets, and all of them are bigger than a half—maybe 5/8 to 1-1/16 in 16ths—but that’s a guess. 

Rick “unable to find even a hint of what type of collet system these are” Denney


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## SLK001 (Oct 16, 2022)

Since it is a tool room version, it originally shipped with a collet system.  The handwheel version was standard, but could be upgraded at time of purchase to a hand lever version.  The system you have is unfamiliar to me.  No collets were included in the purchase price.  Depending on the spindle bore, it probably used a 5C collet system.  Search around for a collet closer tube and spindle collet closer.  The stock system would be superior to what you have now.


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## rwdenney (Oct 16, 2022)

SLK001 said:


> Since it is a tool room version, it originally shipped with a collet system.  The handwheel version was standard, but could be upgraded at time of purchase to a hand lever version.  The system you have is unfamiliar to me.  No collets were included in the purchase price.  Depending on the spindle bore, it probably used a 5C collet system.  Search around for a collet closer tube and spindle collet closer.  The stock system would be superior to what you have now.


Agreed, though this spindle used 4C collets. I think I see what has happened. The advantage to what is included is that it provides a range up to the full through bore of the spindle, which is 1-1/8”. The 4C collets max out at 3/4”, so the collet chuck I found would supplement the original range. Yes, I will be looking for the collet closer and drawbar—4C collets are expensive but at least they are available. 

The chuck I have looks more like a tool-holding system, but that is likely what I would use it for anyway. I don’t own a mill, and I’ll need to do a bit of milling on the lathe. 

Rick “suspecting the drawbar and closer is in the pile somewhere” Denney


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## rwdenney (Oct 17, 2022)

Okay, here’s the latest. 

How many of you noticed the apron gear change handle was not there? Yeah, me neither.  I found the handle, and it appears to have cracked across the shaft of the idler gear shifter. Of course, that part seems to be unobtainium for the 14-1/2–old parts list show it as “NLA” and don’t even provide a part number. 

At least it’s in neutral. 

So, what to do? I could machine using the lead screw at 224 tpi—about .005 per revolution. But of course I have also lost access to the powered cross-slide. I’ll need to figure out 1.) what caused it to break, and 2.) what repair is possible. Is it cast iron? The fracture surface suggests it. Maybe I could drill down the shaft, install a Grade 8 bolt, and then braze around the outside. I’m not sure I’d trust brazing by itself. I have a buddy who I do trust with brazing and welding. 




The belt must be replaced. It sorta works but it’s not tight enough to drive higher speeds. But I was able to test the QCGB, the back gears, the reverser, and the speed selector in the gearbox under power. 

The weird collet chuck has collets for 5/8, 3/4, 7/8, 1, 1-1/16 (two of them), 1-1/8, 1-1/4, and it will hold 1-1/2 without the inner part. I found the spanner, and it is definitely shop-made. 

The micrometer stop is frozen up—I doubt it was ever used. I can fix that. And the saddle clamp seems to be missing—I can fix that, too. 

The spindle is definitely the old style 1-1/8” through bore with 2-1/4-6 nose threads intended for 4c collets. The good news is I have sourced what appears to be the correct drawbar and closer, and I found the thread protector in the pile. All the chucks and plates install happily, though the 4-jaw is a heavy thing. 

I found a shop-made fixture plate plus the factory face plate, both of which are 7” in diameter. I may use the shop-made as a mule to carry a 12” plate. 

I also found a range of scraps and cutoffs, so I’ll be able to play without sourcing new stock. 

Finally, I learned that Uncle bought it from a guy who used it to repair airplane propeller hubs. Both of them were colleagues teaching airplane mechanics at the local trade school. I’ve inspected the ways again and they appear to be unworn. 

I’ve reserved a tilt-bed trailer for the move—targeting Thanksgiving weekend.




Rick “runs fine on 120VAC, but with no load” Denney


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## 682bear (Oct 17, 2022)

Which handle is broken?

Maybe I'm missing something... the only handle I don't see is the backgear engagement... it looks like all the apron controls are there...?

-Bear


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## SLK001 (Oct 17, 2022)

I agree with Bear...  I can't see what handle is broken.  The apron selection shifter is still there (at least in the photos).

SLK "color me confused" 001.


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## tq60 (Oct 17, 2022)

In post 32 there is a hole where the shaft goes, then just above the arm is in place.

Did you stick it in for fit?

It moves a couple thinks and one is an interlock that only allows 1/2 nuts or feed.

So something may have been in wrong place when someone who eats bananas and walks on their knuckles used it.

I would not weld or braze yet.

Tear the apron off and inspect everything and see that it all moves. 

Fracture breaks like splintered wood are gifts...

They have a unique pattern that will only align one way.

We had the support for the reversing shifter for the threading gears do same on our 1917 model A.

Did the below with just the bolt and epoxy.
So, carefully alignment and clamping will get the handle in correct position.

Once you confirm that you can fit the pieces together you now can repair.

First, properly clamp the inside piece so you can drill a 1/8 hole in the center of the shaft inline with the shaft.

Remove burrs from broken end and make sure both parts still fit.

Now clamp both parts together and using the drilled hole as a drill guide bushing, drill the hole into the handle part.

Go all the way through, bonds can fill it in later.

Depending on the shaft size, determine the bolt size.

Maybe 1/2 inch, I like fine thread but coarse may be better in cast, others may have better answer there.

Drill final tap size while clamped tight.

Now tap just one part.

Remove any burs and clamp bacteria together then tap the rest of the way through.

Now thread a bolt through to see how they feel.

There may be some slop.

Things to think about...

If you drill out one side then the bolt can draw parts together but now the bolt head.

You can use just a good grade bolt with long enough threads to thread all the way through, this is full engagement on both sides.

Leave the head on until finished, then cut the bolt at the points it leaves the part and putty and sand to prepare for paint.

1.
Scrub clean with acetone and mix some good slow cure epoxy, we use Devcon HVAC, expensive but made to repair leaky condenser and evaporator so strong stuff.

Slow cure allows you to slather it in both threaded holes, the faces and the bolt then let it cure a few days before cleaning up.

2.
One can solder with lead solder and GOOD FLUX to insure solder flows all the way, you add to top until it comes out the bottom.

3.
Or, you can silver solder, requires more heat.

4.
Or, you can do as South Bend does, get some 1/8 ROUND like drill rod and carefully drill a 1/8 hole parallel to the bolt but center of hole at the line where the bolt and part meets, this is common on some SB knobs. 

I would NOT attempt to braze it before the bolt as you have one chance and it will be ugly and not near as strong.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## rwdenney (Oct 17, 2022)

682bear said:


> Which handle is broken?
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something... the only handle I don't see is the backgear engagement... it looks like all the apron controls are there...?
> 
> -Bear





SLK001 said:


> I agree with Bear...  I can't see what handle is broken.  The apron selection shifter is still there (at least in the photos).
> 
> SLK "color me confused" 001.



Confusing on my part—sorry. In the post from a couple of days ago, when the lathe was buried in junk, the carriage drive handle (the one on the left) isn’t in the apron but is resting in the chip tray over by the tail of the bed. 




I just stuck it in place to see if it fit in brittle fracture and had left it there for the last picture after cleaning up the area. 

I did drop the apron a bit and propped up the carriage to look in there, and nothing seems jammed. But of course I’ll take the apron apart and try to understand what happened. My guess is Uncle’s assistant at some point couldn’t get it to move, and leaned on it too hard, maybe with a pry bar.

The part itself is #35 on the parts diagram below—the is the 1995 parts book that shows it as NLA for the 14-1/2. 




@tq60 that’s exactly what I was thinking, but even easier than I was thinking. There is definitely enough topology in the fracture surface to interlock solidly. A half-inch bolt sounds about right. I don’t care if the head remains—I’m a fixer not a restorer. 

Rick “a little upset earlier but feeling better now” Denney


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## tq60 (Oct 18, 2022)

Been there done that with different part on different lathe.

Easy simple fix, careful execution required for best outcome.



Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## gard (Oct 20, 2022)

I think you can remove the remaining shaft from the handle by driving out the tapered pin. Once you have rest of the part removed from the apron, you can decide if you want to source a used part, make a new shaft (or entire part) or repair the existing shaft. also decide if the repair should  be from the front or back. Repair might not be my first choice. 
When replacing a tapered pin on new parts I think it is typical to drill and ream a new taper pin hole thru the shaft and handle offset from the old hole.
Most of the work I do on the lathe involves turning the handles manually so I would suggest using the lathe as it is for awhile. Depending on where the handle was when it was broken you may be still able to use one of the power feed options.
Drain, flush and replace the head stock oil.


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## mattthemuppet2 (Oct 20, 2022)

the collet chuck looks like it uses tapered collets made for the chuck and home made sleeves to reduce the ID to one that isn't covered by the collets. They're pretty simple to make and I'd imagine alot easier/ cheaper to source for the original owner than new collets in different sizes.


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## rwdenney (Oct 21, 2022)

mattthemuppet2 said:


> the collet chuck looks like it uses tapered collets made for the chuck and home made sleeves to reduce the ID to one that isn't covered by the collets. They're pretty simple to make and I'd imagine alot easier/ cheaper to source for the original owner than new collets in different sizes.


Yes—one of the collet sleeves had a slit that wasn’t exactly a straight line, suggesting to me a shop-made item. The whole thing may be shop-made. If it tests while it might be a cool thing to have, particularly in the larger sizes not accommodated by the 4C collets. 

I have purchased a collet draw bar and spindle sleeve that has the correct measurements and is marked South Bend, so I think it’s for the 14-1/2. It should be here soon, and then I’ll test it on the lathe in the next couple of weeks. I want to eventually find a milling attachment, so I’m thinking tool holding is the objective, primarily, for the two collet systems. 

But I still haven’t made primary accuracy measurements in the lathe yet. I’m positive it is not precisely level, though, so I would expect it to turn tapers at present. I’ll probably wait on that until I get it in my shop. 

Rick “waiting for a good deal on 4C collets” Denney


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## rwdenney (Oct 21, 2022)

gard said:


> I think you can remove the remaining shaft from the handle by driving out the tapered pin. Once you have rest of the part removed from the apron, you can decide if you want to source a used part, make a new shaft (or entire part) or repair the existing shaft. also decide if the repair should  be from the front or back. Repair might not be my first choice.
> When replacing a tapered pin on new parts I think it is typical to drill and ream a new taper pin hole thru the shaft and handle offset from the old hole.
> Most of the work I do on the lathe involves turning the handles manually so I would suggest using the lathe as it is for awhile. Depending on where the handle was when it was broken you may be still able to use one of the power feed options.
> Drain, flush and replace the head stock oil.



It’s in neutral now, so I can move the carriage under power using the half nuts if necessary, which will make a cleaner turn than using the rack-and-pinion carriage handle. But no powered cross slide until I make a repair, of course—the cross slide handle turns a lead screw, at least, so it should be easier to manually control. 

Grizzly tells me that part is unavailable, as expected, but I had to ask. To get the correct part. I believe I’d have to find someone selling a whole apron. Removing that part seems to require a very complete tear-down just to get to it, and even then it’s fiddly. 

My current theory is the interlock with the half-nut engagement lever didn’t release as expected and a prior user (not Uncle, but maybe one of his assistants) tried to force it with a pry bar. That part should have been made from steel. 

Rick “who has watched a lot of YouTube apron tear-down videos ” Denney


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## gard (Oct 21, 2022)

I would not be surprised to see internal parts from the apron come up for sale on ebay or some other site if you keep checking once in awhile and figgure out the best search terms, or like you say, a complete apron. 
You can get pretty good at smoothly cranking those handles manually with some practice.
Good news that it is stuck on the 1/2 nut position now so you can cut threads with it, tough to do that by hand lol. With it set to the finest thread and a larger radius on the tool bit you probably get a decent finish


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## SLK001 (Oct 21, 2022)

gard said:


> Good news that it is stuck on the 1/2 nut position now so you can cut threads with it, tough to do that by hand lol. With it set to the finest thread and a larger radius on the tool bit you probably get a decent finish



That leaves the half-nut engaged all the time, which will wear them out - and no clutch.  Yes, it can be done (and this is the method of feeding on some cheaper lathes), but it is not recommended.


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## rwdenney (Oct 22, 2022)

Toys are arriving. I ended up purchasing the Shars CXA tool post kit, plus a few 3/4” holders for CNMG inserts. The only minor issue is that the boring bar that came with the lathe is a little too snug in the 3/4-1” adapter sleeve in the tool holder. That kit arrived too quickly; I’ll mount it after the move. 

The old Do-All MT3 live center with pipe adapter arrived. Works fine, but I’ll want to replace the bearings at some point. It came with an MT4 adapter that I won’t need. 

And I have cleaned the Rohm 3-jaw chuck. I find no wear in it at all and it was clean inside. It’s beautifully made—everything must fit just right and then it’s smooth as silk. The four-jaw is next, but that’s a bigger workout. 

I found what appears to be a shop-made carriage stop plate, which makes me suspect someone had cranked down too hard on the original and broken it. I’ve bought an original replacement that I think will work, too. 

Still to be sourced: cross feed idler gear cam (the broken part) if I can find one, the MT3 adapter sleeve for the spindle, and 4C collets (those I’ll acquire as needed). Oh, and a new belt!

Next weekend I’ll be back over at the lathe cleaning it as best I can and prepping it for the move. 

Rick “planning a wood pallet similar to what South Bend pictured in old installation instructions” Denney


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## SLK001 (Oct 22, 2022)

rwdenney said:


> Next weekend I’ll be back over at the lathe cleaning it as best I can and prepping it for the move.



How far do you have to go for the move?  This lathe will be exceedingly top-heavy.  On a small trailer, it will be so top-heavy that it could tip the trailer.  You might want to consider breaking it down a little.  The headstock will easily come off, as well as the tailstock.  That's close to 200 pounds off the top.  With additional effort, the bed can be removed from the motor housing and legs.  I'll leave it to you to decide how much has to be removed to move the thing.  If you remove the bed, set it down on wood blocks big enough to keep the gearbox and the carriage from having to support the weight.  Remember, 90% of this lathe is CAST IRON and is thus very UNFORGIVING of excess forces.  You already know just how hard it is to source parts.  Don't make your move a tragic occurrence.


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## rwdenney (Oct 22, 2022)

I’m not taking stuff off other than the chucks, which I’ve already moved. I’ll slide the carriage down to the tailstock and lock it there (the carriage clamp that just arrived is the correct part for the 14-1/2). I’ll probably run the micrometer stop down there as a secondary lock. That will help balance the lathe lengthwise. 

I have reserved a trailer with a 7000 lb gross weight and a tilting bed. The trailer is the full legal width and 16 feet long—I think it would be hard for the lathe to turn it over except in a crash, in which case I’ll have other problems. My rigging straps are rated at 8000 pounds working load. I’ll screw stops down to the trailer bed to keep it from sliding. 

I will be building a pallet similar to the one South Bend used originally—2/12s mounted across two 4x4s. The anchor holes will rest on the 2/12s, which extend front to back of the lathe. The 4x4s run the length of the lathe. The lathe will be bolted down using half-inch lag bolts—same as what SB used in their crates. I’ll use machine skates under the 4/4s, held from slipping with half inch bolts through the 4/4s and into the skates. 




The pallet will prevent sudden lateral loads on one of the tail legs, and will provide a bumper. 

Once in position with floor stops screwed down, I’ll pull it down using the ratchet straps. Like I said, these are big—I use them for tying down tractors. 

Distance is about 40 miles. Move is planned for Thanksgiving weekend, when I can get the trailer for fives days for the one-day price. 

It’s certainly not the first top-heavy load I have rigged. 

Rick “listening to advice carefully” Denney


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## rwdenney (Oct 22, 2022)

I have received the collet drawbar and sleeve, the correct carriage clamp, and a bonus micrometer stop. That was an easy refurb and it works nicely. I’ll compare it to the one on the lathe to decide which is the keeper. 

Rick “progress” Denney


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## rwdenney (Oct 24, 2022)

Grizzly surprised me today by delivering the serial number card after warning that they were indefinitely back-ordered. 




It’s a year older than I thought. The first owner was Bethlehem Steel for use in their electric shop at the Sparrows Point plant near Baltimore, which at the time was the largest steel mill in the world. But the plant’s technology was obsolete and attempts to modernize it in the 80’s were unsuccessful. 

The lathe has never made it farther from its first customer than Hagerstown, MD. My shop in Virginia will actually be closer. 

They also had later delivery slips for a steady rest (which I have) and a follow rest (which is missing). I also don’t have the collet rack. (But I have found a drawbar and sleeve, plus a limited starter selection of Hardinge 4C collets.)

Maybe someone can interpret the meaning of the notice that the machine was sold for a customer-supplies motor, despite that a motor description is hand-written in with a date 10 months after the lathe was first sold. Maybe the dealer installed the motor and provided the information for the warranty card. In any case, the motor is, as I thought, not original, if the 2HP 1410-RPM 3-phase motor that is described was indeed original. The current motor is a 120-volt single-phase 2HP motor (1725 RPM). It’s an old Dayton—old enough for the two-digit postal code to appear in the address in the motor tag—60’s or earlier. 

It may be that when Bethlehem Steel sold it, they also sold it without the motor and that’s when a new motor was installed. I’ll have to show this to Uncle in case it case it sparks a memory, especially for dates. 

Rick “making a spot in the shop” Denney


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## Janderso (Oct 24, 2022)

Wouldn't it be fun to find an original SB like this one in a crate, brand new.
That would be really neat.


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## rwdenney (Oct 24, 2022)

A note on the original dealer: Carey Machinery was located in Baltimore from 1900 to 1998, but descendants still exist. It was apparently a large concern with a number of branches. Some of the forum members from that area may remember more. 

I found what is probably an old catalog, but too expensive to scratch the curiosity itch. 




Rick “more apt to recognize suppliers like this in Southeast Texas” Denney


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## rwdenney (Nov 11, 2022)

Updates:

The carriage clamp turned out to be the clamp for a micrometer stop. But I found a carriage clamp for a 16 that worked after I spent some time with it at the grinding wheel. The collet stuff is perfect and I now have 4C collets in sizes I’ll need. Readjusting the gib on the compound solved the stiffness issue it had, but there’s a little more to do there—the gib screw doesn’t screw in far enough to reach the grub screw that locks it. 

The shop-built carriage stop I found turned out to be the stop used on the taper attachment, so now I can lock the carriage on both sides of the bed. I think that will be a good thing when I mount the milling adapter. 

Adjusting the belt solved the slipping problem and all speeds work as they should. 

But the big news is that I’ve removed about 80% of the grime and mounted it on a skid that is mounted on machine skates, which allowed me to roll it out into the main hangar. It’s ready for the move in a couple of weeks. 



On the skid. 



The skid is made from 4/4 runners with 2x12 cross bars, lagged into the 4x4’s with three 3/8x4” lag screws on each end. The lathe is lagged down to the skid using 3/8 lag screws similar to what the factory uses. 

I got the skates on eBay. They are 3” channels sideways with a couple half-inch bolts through the webs. Each holds four bearings, and my only issue with them was the small size of the wheels, which could trip in a grain of sand. But they have a great feature—a nut welded in the channel that accepts a bolt. That keeps the skate from slipping out. Once I got it onto the smooth hangar floor, it was very easy to roll. 



The lathe was on the left, adjacent to the compressor (which meant access on the left was limited—I couldn’t test the 4C drawbar until I rolled it out. 



Waiting for Thanksgiving weekend, when we’ll pull the plane and the ‘49 Woody out. 

Rick “the only real repair needed now is the power feed shifter” Denney


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## rwdenney (Nov 24, 2022)

Well, disaster. The rigging was perfect, it was solid on the trailer, and it was easy to move into my shop and get it into position. 

The disaster happened when lifting it off the skid. I lifted the head end with a toe jack to install leveling feet, and was lowering it back down when it tipped. I still don’t know how it tipped—I was at a good balance point. Went over on its back. 

The taper attachment shattered, and the cross slide screw is ruined. No other casualties, but that’s bad enough. The saddle moves perfectly, so no real damage there.

We were able to hoist it back upright using my engine hoist, and it’s now on its feet. 

Now I have to find some parts, but for now it’s turkey time. 

Rick “film at 11” Denney


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## rwdenney (Nov 24, 2022)

The move:

Rigged for travel at origin:






In my shop, on trailer, last night:










Untrailering, this morning:





Positioning:





The Disaster:

}%^#%!!:





Missed the tractor, the GMC, and the people:





Two hours later, hoisted back upright, and finally on its leveling feet (the hoist was not nearly this extended for uprighting it):












The taper attachment castings are toast. I can live without that. But the cross slide screw is also a goner: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









Rick “feeling like a dumba$$” Denney


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## francist (Nov 24, 2022)

Ugh, that’s not pretty. One minor grace is that it went over backwards and spared all the front controls. Doesn’t ease the pain though. 

That balance is a funny thing. I remember hoisting a stone finial up to a parapet wall one afternoon — everything was good with what we thought was the heavy side down. Uh yeah, you can guess the rest. Darn thing near did a complete somersault mid-air before I managed to get an arm on to steady it. Goofy!

Glad nobody was hurt, that could really have ended badly.

-frank


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## Shotgun (Nov 25, 2022)

It is a sick feeling as you watch a machine line that roll over onto it's side.  Seems like slow motion.  It happened to me when I got my first lathe about 15yrs ago.

Now, if I'm going to lift, move or shift the machines in any way, I'll hook up the engine lift as a safety.  Nah, it isn't strong enough to lift the entire machine, but, God willing, it will stop any tipping at the incipient stage.


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## rwdenney (Nov 25, 2022)

Shotgun said:


> It is a sick feeling as you watch a machine line that roll over onto it's side.  Seems like slow motion.  It happened to me when I got my first lathe about 15yrs ago.
> 
> Now, if I'm going to lift, move or shift the machines in any way, I'll hook up the engine lift as a safety.  Nah, it isn't strong enough to lift the entire machine, but, God willing, it will stop any tipping at the incipient stage.



I used a hoist as a safety when jacking it up to put it on the skid at Uncle’s hangar. But my hoist was at the lower level across the back of the shop, and I didn’t want to drive on wet yard to fetch it. Yup, dumbassery on my part.

Anybody know where I can find a cross slide screw? After I get it apart, I’ll start a new thread. I may have to see who would be able to make one. 

Rick “disassembly posing some challenges” Denney


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## rwdenney (Nov 25, 2022)

rwdenney said:


> …
> It’s certainly not the first top-heavy load I have rigged.



Heh. This post was liked today. It is a testimony to my hubris, though the rigging was solid. I did all that right. I screwed boards down to the trailer bed to keep the skid from shifting. I used ratchet straps for much bigger loads, with the straps woven around the bed cross bars to lock it against lateral movement as well as pulling it down, and I used two ratchet straps in rack end with a shallow enough angle to resist lateral movement as much as vertical movement. 

The mistake was lifting the headstock base from a single point without a safety either in the form of a hoist from above or by building up cribbing blocks as the lathe went up. My helper was grabbing those as it went over. 

And I needed to have move the carriage and tailstock back to the tail to help weight down the tail end. I had done that at the origin point, too. 

I will have to live with the result.

Rick “finding a place to hoist it up after the fall was not easy” Denney


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## mmcmdl (Nov 28, 2022)

Jeez , another lathe down ? Just saw @pontiac428 's lathe went down also . One GOOD thing is the Kubota was spared .


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## rwdenney (Nov 29, 2022)

I started another thread seeking advice for the repair, and then almost immediately was able to source nearly all the parts need to make a complete repair. 

But a couple of folks suggested the lathe wasn’t worth the trouble. It’s actually a fair question, and I spent the evening inspecting things. 

I removed the cross slide this evening. I made a spanner for the handle retainer nut using a 3/8-drive flathead screwdriver socket from McMaster. Very nearly didn’t work—the existing slots in the nut were badly chewed up. I cut new slots with a Dremel and a cutoff wheel. 

The front shaft with the cross slide power-feed gear is in good condition—no damage. The cross slide, after I cleaned and reinstalled it with the gib properly adjusted and way oil on the dovetail, moves as smooth as glass with no play that I can detect. It and the saddle are undamaged, except for the chip around one of the bolts that holds the connecting bar in place. 

The saddle moves smoothly in the bed and the power feed works fine using the half nuts. I need to repair the handle in the power feed shifter, but that was a known problem already. 

I also replaced the belt and ran the headstock a bit. All good except on the highest speeds, which are a bit draggy and created some warmth (not hot, just warm on the main headstock journal after 15 minutes at top speed). I don’t think the headstock has the right oil in it. 

First blush at checking headstock bearing clearance is that it is “okay”, meaning that my quickie measurement with a 0.001 indicator while lifting sa 12” bar in the 3-jaw didn’t show anything obviously out of spec. I’ll check it in more detail later, when I replace the felts in the headstock. 

I installed the three-jaw chuck and chucked up a 12” bar for that quick check, and measured .005 TIR at the chuck, and the outside of the chuck showed a TIR of 0.001. None of that indicates a problem. 

The tailstock works perfectly. 

Next step is careful leveling with my Starrett 98-12, and servicing the apron and headstock. 

One discovery: the speeds are weird. First: This lathe was originally sold to one of the oldest steel mills in the US and the largest mill in the world at the time. Officially, South Bend supplied it without a motor (see the serial number card upthread), but handwritten on the card are specs for what seems to have been the motor that Bethlehem Steel installed: 1410 RPM, 3-phase, 550 VAC at 25 Hz. No power company has ever supplied such power so far as I know, so I suspect Bethlehem generated their own power originally and at least up through the 40’s. 

The motor in it now is a 2-HP single-phase Dayton 5K482, wired for 120 VAC and running at 1740 RPMs. I wondered if they changed the motor pulley, but apparently not with one that preserved the official speeds. I measured 38 RPMs in slow speed using the back gears, and it’s supposed to be 27. That’s a bigger change than is explained by going from 1410 to 1740 RPMs, so they probably used whatever three-sheave motor pulley that was convenient. If so, top speed will be 1125 RPMs at the spindle instead of the specified 800, and the plain bearings might not be too happy about that. 

I left the bull gear disengaged after disengaging the back gears, and the motor ran the freewheeling headstock pulley very fast. With the spindle engaged, it could not sustain that speed. Again, I’m wondering if the oil in the spindle is too heavy. I filled the cups with Velocite No. 10, but it would take a while for that to make it to the journals. 

I’ll at least pull the caps on the headstock bearings to replace the felts. I’ll do that before actual use. 

But I’m not seeing anything to suggest it won’t be a serviceable lathe. I certainly spent a LOT less than I would have for, say, a PM 1440. My mishap may have moved it out of the good deal category, but it did not ruin it. 

Rick “on reflection, headstock behavior no different before mishap” Denney


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## Shotgun (Nov 29, 2022)

I'd say that extra 300 RPM won't stress the plain bearings unless you're going to be doing this full time.  As a hobby machine, it just won't be used that much, and how often is top speed called for?
As for the oil, hasn't the lathe been sitting for a long while?  Oil dries out, leaving a gummy mess.  I would dribble some tiki torch fuel (same as kerosene, but cleaner with less smell) in the cups and run it at the 38rpm to flush out the old stuff. Followed by some good oil, once convinced it was clean.


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## rwdenney (Dec 11, 2022)

I just finished going though the headstock. It disturbed me that that it wouldn’t run at top speed—that’s either an oiling problem or a bearing adjustment problem. I just couldn’t put that off. 

These were the shims in the front bearing:




They added up to 0.018, and similar shims in the rear but thicker. The blue and red stuff is intentional but appears to be plastic and thin. At first I thought the shim was painted and that’s what had peeled off. The rear bearing shims were similar but thicker at 0.027. 

I ordered a set of brass shims. Even though I have shim stock and punches, I hate making shims 

Before pulling the caps, I measured deflection using a test bar as described by South Bend. An approximate 75-pound lift at 12” from the spindle is supposed to raise it 0.0007 to 0.0015. Mine was 0.0002. Oops! And the felt in the expander was missing, which I could see from the top. I ended up with a 0.021 stack, and that got me a deflection of 0.0012. 

The rear bearing was flapping in the breeze by comparison, with 0.008 of deflection when lifted by the test bar. I ended up with the same 0.021 shim thickness as the front, and the deflection is still a bit over tolerance. 

Once I had that figured out, I pulled the spindle to clean out the oil reservoir and install new wicks and felts. Getting it back together took several tries—something was binding on the rear bearing and I had to take it apart several times. 

I can’t say I’m completely ecstatic about the result. I now have high speed, which I _am_ excited about. But the bearings have a lot of stiction and the belt wants to slip rather than starting when in high speed, unless I give it a little help. I don’t like having to help it start, but once it does, it will run indefinitely and not get even warm. I’ll live with it. Of course, I’m using Mobil Velocite No. 10, which is the specified spindle lubricant. 

And because I had the end gear cover off, I cleaned the end gears up to the gearbox. 

Next task: Apron. I have to get deep enough to extract the idler cam so I can repair it, and that’s all the way, so I might as well overhaul the apron completely. 

Rick “this week” Denney


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## rwdenney (Dec 11, 2022)

So, the apron is presenting some challenges, but really only to correct the broken idler gear cam for the power cross feed.

I did discover why it was broken. The idler gear lockout (that prevents engaging the half nuts when the cross-feed is engaged) was barely able to move because of hardened greasy grime. Given the state of the oil wicks, I'm not surprised, though all the shafts and gears were well oiled when I took it apart. The cam was unable to actuate that lockout, and I'm sure somebody tried to force it.

There is some evidence of ham-handed mechanic work in the past, but nothing that can't be put right. And the Ilion Press rebuild book didn't get everything right, either, and I barely avoided ruining an allen-head set screw in the worm-gear collar because they instructed the reader to drive out a pin in that spot. And they gave rather terse instructions for lathes with star-handle clutches instead of cam-lever clutches, leaving out a couple of important details.

Now, to the idler cam. The part is simply not deep enough for me to want to thread one side of the failure plane to tighten the other side against. I only have the thickness of the cam (maybe a half inch) behind the break, and the idler gear spins bang up against that cam surface. 

So, my current plan is to drill a tight clearance hole the length of the handle shaft, and countersink the back side for a 3/8-16 countersink bolt. I'll put a nut on the front side. I'll wrap the two pieces together with tape, fill up the hole with industrial epoxy, insert the bolt into the uncured epoxy, and tighten a nut  to squeeze the two parts together. After it cures, I'll drill the current taper hole through the new bolt with a drill that is undersize, and ream it to the taper. (I do have a set of taper reamers, plus a collection of taper pins. That way, I'll be able to use the current taper-pin hole on the handle.

If that breaks, then my plan is to make a new handle shaft with a half-inch bolt thread where it would go through the cam plate, and drill and tap the plate for the screw-in replacement handle shaft. I'll drill through the thread and drive in a small dowel pin, South Bend style, to keep it from unscrewing. But I'd need the lathe to be operational to make that part. 

The key to the repair working, however, is for that lockout to work smoothly and freely, and that will be a priority when reassembling the apron.

Rick "I love the smell of acetone in the morning" Denney


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## SLK001 (Dec 11, 2022)

rwdenney said:


> And the Ilion Press rebuild book didn't get everything right, either, and I barely avoided ruining an allen-head set screw in the worm-gear collar because they instructed the reader to drive out a pin in that spot.



This is most likely a previous owner's "mod" - especially if you find a hole in the shaft under the collar.


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## rwdenney (Dec 11, 2022)

SLK001 said:


> This is most likely a previous owner's "mod" - especially if you find a hole in the shaft under the collar.


Yes, that could well be. I have to say it's an improvement, as long as I don't lose the set screws. 

Rick "remembering now that he forgot to reinstall them in the collars for safekeeping after removal" Denney


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## rwdenney (Dec 17, 2022)

Okay, so this lathe has been overhauled in the past. Lots of bronze sleeves in the apron, and then I made the big discovery: the saddle’s V-ways are lined with bronze. 

So, lots of measurement in my future. Maybe what was done was an improvement, maybe not. Bronze would be a poor choice for a productionn machine, maybe but for my purposes may be no issue. 

The apron is back together and the repaired power feed shift cam is working fine. I’ll post later about that with pics. 

Rick “film at 11” Denney


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## rwdenney (Dec 17, 2022)

This post concerns the repair of broken idler cam. At the start of this thread, I knew the lathe’s power-feed shifter was broken off. The shaft was broken right at its base, where it joined the cam itself. 

The cam serves two functions. One is that it shifts the idler gear (which always engages the output pinion of the power-feed clutch) between 1.) floating in air (the middle neutral position), 2.) also engaging the cross-feed drive gear (which always engages the pinion in the cross-feed screw), or 3.) engaging a gear on the carriage drive shaft (which also engages the handwheel and the rack in the bed).

The other purpose is preventing both the power feed and the half nuts from being engaged at the same time. The notch in the cam permits the lockout lever from disengaging the detent on the bottom half nut. When not in the notch, that detent is engaged preventing the half nut from moving into the lead screw. 

The second purpose is why it broke. The lockout pin was frozen solid in the apron casting from hardened lubricant, and I’m sure someone tried to loosen it by hammering on the handle. Uncle’s son remembers that handle being broken at least 20 years ago, but he didn’t know the story. 

The handle shaft is therefore loaded in shear but not in bending. The idler gear is trapped by the cross-feed drive gear, which keeps it from racking on the handle shaft.  But it does carry some power-feed drive forces.

Before doing anything else, I drew it up in case I ever need to make another one. 







The handle shaft fracture surface fit the fracture surface on the cam tightly, suggesting brittle fracture. That’s good, because that surface interlocks in shear if the two parts can be held together strongly. 

So, I clamped it together and drilled a 1/8” pilot hole through the middle of the shaft. I enlarged the hole in the cam plate to the pilot hole size for a 3/8” stud. Of course, I thread it crooked, because I’m a hack. So, the stud wasn’t straight. I enlarged the pilot hole into a clearance hole in the shaft large enough to accommodate the crooked stud, and the countersunk it deeply enough to provide a well for epoxy.

I mixed up some 3M DP420 industrial epoxy and filled the clearance hole, plus applying it to the fracture surface and the threaded hole in the cam. 

Here’s the backside of the cam where the stud is screwed in flush to get full thread depth. It’s too close to the stub shaft for the idler gear to allow a fastener inserted from the back. 






I then sank the handle shaft over the stud, installed a washer and a nut while the epoxy was workable, wiped off the excess, checked it for alignment, and the let the epoxy cure. 






At this point, the stud is mechanically threaded into the cam plate and embedded in a solid mass of epoxy. After curing, the nut isn’t really needed, but I had no reason to remove it. 

And then I drilled a hole across the stud so I could ream it for the taper pin that secures the handle. I only broke two drills drilling through the hard stud. I finished it up by hand using a taper reamer, while holding the part in a V-block in the vise. This didn’t go well. I ended up finish reaming it with the handle in place, enlarging it slightly for a #4 taper pin. 






Here’s the finished repair:






You can see the epoxy interface in the fracture plane. 

It’s back in the apron, which required complete apron disassembly—next post. 

Rick “thinking that part could be turned from bar stock without too much drama”Denney


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## rwdenney (Dec 17, 2022)

Rebuilding the apron was a voyage of discovery. I followed along the Ilion Press rebuild book and used their felt kit. I also benefitted greatly from George Bell’s Youtube video made when he restored his SB13. 






I reported earlier that my apron didn’t match what Ilion showed, and someone suggested it might be an ex-factory modification. I’m persuaded there were many of those. The handwheel shaft, the shaft holding cross-feed gear, and the idler gear were sleeved or bushed in bronze, which I don’t think is original. 

And the bushings for the worm gear were bronze. They were also press-fit, and they simply had to be perfect to work. I suspect they were line-bored or honed after installation. I simply could not them installed so that the worm wouldn’t bind. Every time I pounded them in and out to try a different alignment I had to scrape off the burr raised by the pounding, even using a wood drift. 

I noticed that George Bell inserted the (iron) bushings easily without all that drama, and I realized that they were doweled to prevent rotation and didn’t need an interference fit. I sanded them down with emery cloth until they fit with only light tapping—a slight slip fit. That relieved the alignment issue and the worm sleeve turned easily after that. It also allowed me to position the felt channels so that the felts could be routed safely. 

(The apron had only a few remains of felts, and I also extracted a nut—the edible kind at least at some point—from the apron sump. That told me where the felts went. It also told me the apron was dry at least at some time since the last time it was rebuilt.)

Some prior rebuilder installed a ball oiler in the casting around the handwheel shaft, and did so decades before Ilion’s book. It kept me from having to add the recommended oiler. The felt for the handwheel shaft really added some drag to the handwheel, but I’m sure that felt will break in. 

I really worked the sliding surfaces so the interlock for the half nut would work smoothly and reliably. 

I then throughly cleaned the rack and the lead screw. The keyway in the lead screw makes cleaning in place difficult, but I reinstalled the end bearing and cleaned it while the lathe turned it under power. All strategies effectively covered me in grime, but only some really worked. In the end, I used carb cleaner and then ran the edge of a rag in the thread root all the way along the length of the screw as it turned. 

The apron is in place, full of oil (SB Type C—Mobil Heavy-Medium ISO 68), and working as it should. It’s clean and has all new felts, but I did not strip the staining or repaint it. As I said in the OP, I’m not a restorer.  I just want it to work reliably. 






Rick “state of good repair is the target” Denney


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## gard (Dec 18, 2022)

I am about ready to line the saddle V ways with turcite which is a bearing material made to be glued in place. This will be my first experience with it, It almost looks like bronse, its a high tec plastic. Any chance that is what is on yours? I am currently working on a SB 10L but also have a 14 1/2


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## SLK001 (Dec 18, 2022)

rwdenney said:


> The apron is in place, full of oil (SB Type C—Mobil Heavy-Medium ISO 68), and working as it should.



If you're talking about the apron reservoir, it should be filled with SB Type A oil (ie, Velocite Oil No. 10 ISOVG 22 - aka Spindle Oil).

I've attached the Lubrication Chart for your lathe.


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## rwdenney (Dec 18, 2022)

SLK001 said:


> If you're talking about the apron reservoir, it should be filled with SB Type A oil (ie, Velocite Oil No. 10 ISOVG 22 - aka Spindle Oil).
> 
> I've attached the Lubrication Chart for your lathe.



That chart makes no sense to me, to be honest. All oil drainage from the upper two oilers ends up in the reservoir, resulting in a mix of A and C. And the Ilion book suggested that C oil be used for everything in the Apron. 

My chart is in the shop. I wonder if they agree—I’ll check later. 

Rick “doesn’t like mixing oils” Denney


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## SLK001 (Dec 18, 2022)

Most of the other oil in the carriage is "flow thru" and excess will usually drip into the tray below.  The reservoir is a source for wicking oilers and the lighter oils wick the best.



rwdenney said:


> And the Ilion book suggested that C oil be used for everything in the Apron.



The book uses Type C oil as an assemble oil and saturates all wicks with it.  My book says nothing about filling the reservoir with Type C oil.  In fact, it doesn't mention filling it at all.


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## rwdenney (Dec 18, 2022)

But, sure enough, the chart agrees with the other chart. Like I said, I’m a hack. 

I drained the apron and filled it with Velocite #10. 

Rick “that’s why I describe stuff—so I can be corrected” Denney


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## rwdenney (Dec 19, 2022)

gard said:


> I am about ready to line the saddle V ways with turcite which is a bearing material made to be glued in place. This will be my first experience with it, It almost looks like bronse, its a high tec plastic. Any chance that is what is on yours? I am currently working on a SB 10L but also have a 14 1/2



It’s definitely metallic bronze and not Turcite. As with all bronze, there is a touch of stiction from a stop but it moves smoothly and does not rock. Near as I can measure at present, the cross slide is at the correct right angle to the spindle, but I won’t be really sure of that until I attempt to face something large enough to check flatness on my surface plate. I indicated the surface of the 7-1/2” fixture plate as I moved the slide, but I have no confidence in that. The fixture plate itself has a runout of 5-6 thousandths, but it has lived a hard life. 

The tailstock has also been shimmed (between the v-way casting and the tailstock body) to adjust its height; presumably it was ground to remove wear and then shimmed to compensate and align it to the shimmed saddle. By scribing a point on the end of a ground dowel pin it’s within a couple of thou. But that dowel, though mounted in a 4C collet, showed TIR of about 12 tenths, so I don’t know if it’s the center or the spindle that’s not quite perfect. 

I don’t have the Morse taper insert for the spindle, and for turning between centers, my expedient will be installing a straight-shank center in a collet. The 4C collet closer installs in the spindle in front of the face plate, with a bit of overhang so that the faceplate will serve to eject it. But I don’t have the straight-shank center yet.

With my watchmaker lathe, one proves the tailstock by trapping a razor blade between centers, but that may be more precision than I need (or will get) from this big South Bend. 

Anyway, I’ve confirmed that its alignment is  at least basically okay. Improving the measurement regime from thousandths to tenths will be a lot more work, and the next step for me is some test turnings. 

Rick “measurements are more fun than cleaning off grime” Denney


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## rwdenney (Dec 20, 2022)

Here it is after basic leveling and after rebuilding the headstock bearings and the apron. The damage from the moving accident has been corrected and the lathe is fully operational. I’ve taken off a lot of grime but the paint is what it is. 






The tool box is a provisional—I’m trying this out. It’s a biggish box (a cheap and cheerful Park from a few decades ago) and it holds tools, the quick-change tool holders (for when I get the tool post mounted), a drawer full of HSS bits, a couple of Armstrong holders, 4C collets, sleeve collets (everything but the chuck), centers, center drills, and so on. Metrology is in a different box, as are general drills, mills, and reamers. 






The bar in the collet chuck above was part of getting some baseline measurements. TIR of that collet chuck is a thou or two. It was easy to bump in the bar at the tip, but I would need the steady for machining. (The steady rest and the 4-jaw chuck are still rusty and they are over on the bench.) TIR at the spindle is a tenth or two. I chucked up a 3” bar in the 3-jaw and made some facing cuts. After some experimentation with tool position, sharpening and honing, and feeds and speeds, facing was flat according to a straightedge but I have not measured any more precisely than that. 

The live center is an old Do-All, made by Royal. It works but I’ll rebuild it eventually. It came with a slip-on bull nose for pipe. 
















I picked up a plastic 3D-printed indicator holder and it works really well. 






I guess it looks cleaner than in the OP. It’s certainly cleaner on the inside. 






Tool post is next. I found a plate that is a close fit to the compound slot that just needs to be drilled and threaded for the 18x1.5 mounting stud for the Shars CXA toolpost I bought. I don’t have a tap that size but one is on the way along with a big enough Greenfield tap wrench. 

Then, I can make the dovetail insert for the milling attachment. 

Rick “hatching a design for a new connecting bar, too” Denney


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## SLK001 (Dec 20, 2022)

Do yourself a favor and clean the paint off your gearbox plate.  It will be easier to see and make changing gears quicker.


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## rwdenney (Dec 20, 2022)

SLK001 said:


> Do yourself a favor and clean the paint off your gearbox plate.  It will be easier to see and make changing gears quicker.


Actually, I have replacements for all the plates. I just haven't installed them yet. The gearbox plate had nice red paint in one spot, but it's so worn down that it would have to be repainted. The plate wasn't actually painted with the lathe color, I don't think, but has been scrubbed so much that a lot of the background paint is just worn off, giving it a color I call Olde Aluminum, which is pretty similar to Olde Machinery Gray. (The paint companies get extra money for those extra e's). I just bought a modern replacement, which doesn't exactly match the original font, etc., but which is much easier to read. 

I have new plates for the lubrication and headstock bearing adjustment also, and even boxes of screw pins to secure them.

Before installing the one on the gearbox, I may go ahead and pull the gearbox and get all the grime out of it.

Rick "better install them before I misplace them " Denney


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## SLK001 (Dec 20, 2022)

rwdenney said:


> Before installing the one on the gearbox, I may go ahead and pull the gearbox and get all the grime out of it.


Yes, the gearbox is heavy with felts.  The single tumbler version is more prone to wear from poor lubrication.  Also, once apart, you should be able to punch the old screw pins out from the inside.


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## rwdenney (Dec 22, 2022)

Last evening, I cleaned up the 4-jaw chuck. I could find no label on the body, but all the parts are stamped with the Skinner logo, and the Skinner catalog in VM identified it as a 1910, with a forged steel body and 10” in size. 

I needed it to hold the toolpost mounting plate I found in the pile o’stuff. I’ll machine the T-nut from Shars at a later date, when I have a milling capability. 

The plate was flame-cut from a piece of 1/2x2” CRS flat bar, and drilled for a 3/8-16 bolt for probably a boring-bar mounting block. (The 14-1/2 has a compound slot that is nominally 17/32x2-1/16”.) I cleaned it up on the grinder and sander, and then mounted it in the 4-jaw. I used parallels to position it normal to the lathe axis and then indicated it to center on a 3/8” bolt in the threads. That hole was not straight but I indicated it as close as possible to the hole and that was good enough. 

Then, I used the new 16.5mm drill from McMaster, and also the 18x1.5 taper tap with my spring-loaded tap follower in the tailstock. It’s really nice to be able to drill and thread holes accurately—something I could never do with my craptastic drill press. 







I’m very glad I didn’t get a smaller toolpost than this CXA. 

I’m using the sides of CNMG inserts in a neutral holder for facing cuts. I was told the South Bend lacked the power and speed to use double-sided negative-rake inserts like the CNMG, but here is my first use of it:











(0.040 DOC, sloooow feed rate, maybe 225 RPM, so not pushing any boundaries. )

Next project, probably for the new year, will be a dovetail base for the milling attachment. I’ll use that to fab a taper attachment connecting bar—the steel for that is in hand and the design is in head. 

Rick “
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




” Denney


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## rwdenney (Jan 3, 2023)

Okay, recalling my previous observation of non-standard speeds…

I received a tachometer for Christmas, and finally got a moment this evening to measure the lathe speeds. The heavy 4-jaw chuck is mounted with a chunk of steel clamped in it, so it was a heavy load. 

(With this heavy load the highest speed takes some coaxing. I’m wondering if rewiring the single-phase motor for 240 will give it a bit more zip. The motor is a 60’s or 70’s Dayton 5K482 2-HP motor. These are good motors still in production and a new one is over a grand. This is NOT the motor installed by the first user, according to the serial number card. That one was a 2-HP 3-phase motor wired for 550 VAC at 25 Hz, and supposedly running at 1410 RPMs. 

In the stock configuration, the published speeds range from 181 to 800 RPMs (27-121 in the back gears). My speeds are 250, 400, 625, and 1000 (38, 60, 94, and 150 in the back gear). 

In the highest gears, my measured speeds are tracking the rated loaded difference in the motor speeds. 1750 is 24% higher than 1410, and 1000 is 25% higher than 800. But in the lowest gears, the motor is turning a bit faster—1785—but the lathe is going faster than predicted. 250 is 38% higher than 181. These percentage differences are preserved using the back gears, so I don’t think it’s spindle bearing drag notwithstanding my impression that the motor is barely able to drive the top speed. 

It would appear that they just moved the motor pulley over to the Dayton motor when the lathe was converted for use outside a steel plant. 

The percentage difference increases smoothly in the four cone sheaves, so I have to think the effect is linear with belt speed. 

Anyway, I have now marked the actual speeds on the inside of the pulley cover. 

By the way, the tach has a wheel that will report surface feet per minute, which is really handy.

And that 10” 4-jaw chuck is fairly impressive spinning at 1000 RPMs. (Yes, it’s a steel chuck and rated for it). 

Rick “no plans to use the highest speeds except for small stuff held in a collet chuck” Denney


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## SLK001 (Jan 3, 2023)

rwdenney said:


> I’m wondering if rewiring the single-phase motor for 240 will give it a bit more zip.


If it can be rewired, then 240V will be your better bet.  Operating a 2 HP motor on 120V is an "iffy" proposition.



rwdenney said:


> It would appear that they just moved the motor pulley over to the Dayton motor when the lathe was converted for use outside a steel plant.


That should have been all that was needed.


As for your tach, pictures, or "it didn't happen"!


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## rwdenney (Jan 4, 2023)

SLK001 said:


> If it can be rewired, then 240V will be your better bet.  Operating a 2 HP motor on 120V is an "iffy" proposition.


I agree. The rated starting current draw should be popping my 20-amp breaker routinely, but it isn't, even once when the motor stalled on start when I had the spindle belt too tight. That surprised me quite a lot, and I was really surprised (I think I mentioned it) when I saw that it was using 120 VAC back in Uncle's hanger. I need to run another circuit for 240 so I'm not having to roll stuff over the cord. The only other 240VAC rolling tool I have is a 3-HP cabinet saw--my other tools are 1 HP or less.



> That should have been all that was needed.


It depends. The serial number card stated that the motor was to be supplied by the customer, but it also showed (in handwriting rather than typing) the operating characteristics of the motor used. As previously mentioned, the lathe was sold to Beth Steel to be used in the "Elec Sup" department of what was at the time the world's largest steel plant. 25-Hz power was (and still is) used by electric trains on a large portion of the Amtrak Northeast Corridor line, supplied at much higher voltages using overhead catenary. Amtrak sells a lot of that power to other users of that line, including SEPTA and NJ Transit. The Sparrows Point Shipyard where this lathe was first delivered is in Baltimore, near the southern end of that line, which extends down to Union Station in Washington DC. I do not know if Beth Steel shared power with the Pennsylvania Railroad (the original owner of that line; they were emulating the 11-KV, 25-Hz power used by the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad starting in 1908), but it's certainly possible. And it would mean transformers, motors and other power equipment wired for that frequency would be locally available. It's not impossible that Beth Steel generated power for the Penn, given that the Penn started using it in 1915 and the Sparrows Point plant started operation in 1887 under Maryland Steel (Bethlehem bought it in 1915, and it was one of their four Baltimore shipyards). The reason for using 25-Hz power was so that they could increase transmission voltages using the equipment of the day. They currently transmit power from substation to substation at 138KV.

This lathe was delivered in June of 1945, only a few weeks after the surrender of Nazi Germany and while WWII in the Pacific theater was still quite hot. Beth Steel was building liberty ships at Sparrows Point, and they continued to grow into the 50's, supplying steel for rebuilding and in response to post-war prosperity. Meaning: the plant was large and active for quite a while after this lathe was delivered.

So, for the "it depends". I don't know when Beth Steel liquidated this lathe, but I have to assume it was in the 60's or 70's, when the plant was shrinking rather than growing. It would have been outdated by that time, but I suspect it was used for as-needed repairs of other machinery in the plant, not for production (where it would have been considered too small and where being outdated would have been more of an issue). Of course, when they sold it, they would have had to convert it for use on the regular power grid in order to find a buyer, or the buyer would have done it after the purchase. I suspect both would have been counting pennies, and would have used the pulley that originally came with the lathe for use with a 1410-RPM motor. Normally, the pulley would be replaced to provide the specified speeds for the lathe. Appropriate pulleys are easy to make and easy to buy in whatever size would be needed. That tells me that it was probably the buyer that replaced the motor.

I have no idea if it was ever wired for 240.

There is a round three-phase power receptacle on the back of the base unit next to the switch-arm mounting, wired how and for what purpose I don't know.

I haven't messed with the wiring, but I need to go ahead and do that. Normally, I do that first as a matter of safety--I'm apparently more picky about wiring safety than previous owners of the stuff I've bought.



> As for your tach, pictures, or "it didn't happen"!


Yeah, yeah, yeah.  I was squeezing it in between spousal assignments, and the holidays are over. Maybe I'll sneak out there tonight.

Rick "pic of the tach in the 'What did you buy today' thread" Denney


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## rwdenney (Sunday at 12:43 AM)

SLK001 said:


> …As for your tach, pictures, or "it didn't happen"!



Here’s the tach measuring slow speed with the back gears, 38Hz:





You can see the reflector target stuck to the  chuck adapter. 

Here’s the same pulley without the back gears:






And here’s top speed:






Here’s the motor speed:






It’s handy, for sure. 

Rick “standard Amazon cheapie” Denney


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