# Cad/cam For The Hobby Machinist



## RJSakowski (Aug 13, 2015)

I had been putting this off until I had a chance to have a personal look-see but a similar topic coming up seemed to make it appropriate.   I am by no means well informed about the following  which is why I was procrastinating so some of what follows may be off base.  Please note that I have no personal interest in the following product other than an ongoing quest for better software.

A week ago last Saturday, I was at the Tormach open house and a couple of reps from Autodesk gave a presentation about their new product, Fusion 360.  Autodesk is trying very hard to become  number one in the CAD/CAM arena.  Fusion 360 is their bid to regain the market.

Some background:  Autodesk fell behind the curve in CAD when SolidWorks aggressively pushed the 3D parametric CAD package.  Since then, it has been catchup for them.  A year ago or so, they issued HSM Works and the free version HSM Express, CAM applications that launched from within SolidWorks.  Building on that, they began developing a stand-alone product integrating the CAD and CAM portions within a single product: Fusion 360.

Fusion 360 is a cloud based application that can run on virtually any platform.  The product is a subscription, either by the month or by the year. Once you subscribe, you can open the app on any computer, smart phone, or tablet that has internet access.  All of your work is stored on the cloud and can be accessed at any time.  Additionally, all your work from the previous month or more can be stored on your computer to work with when you don't have internet access. Additionally, any product upgrades are seamlessly and transparently available each time you use the app.

The really great thing about this for hobbyists is their pricing schedule.  This is a professional product intended for professionals but because of their aggressive marketing, it is available by the month for $40 or $300 for a year subscription.  You can opt out of any month you don't want or need to use the app and resubscribe  when you need it again. 

Now here is the best part.  You can download it free for 1 month.  After the month has expired, you can continue if you are a student or, if you are an enthusiast (i.e. non-professional user), you can extend the free subscription for a year.  After the year has expired the subscription rates above apply.

I currently have a personal seat of SolidWorks 2012.  It cost me over $4,000.  I do not pay the annual maintenance fee of $1400 so my seat is out of date with all the future versions.  SolidWorks does not create backwards compatible files so I cannot receive files from anyone using a future version (I had heard that they were going to start backward compatibility with the 2013 version but that is unverified).  For my CAM application, I use SprutCAM ver. 7.  The upgrade fee is $300 each year so I am two versions out of date .  If I don't upgrade each year, I have to buy a full seat at $1250.  When I compare that against the Fusion 360 cost, it's almost a no-brainer.

I love my SolidWorks.  I have been using it for eleven years and can do anything that I want or need to do.  The SprutCAM is kind of kwerky but it works and I have the 2D HSM Express as well.  But eventually I will have to upgrade and when I do, Fusion 360 is looking very attractive. 

There is much more to this product and I would recommend that anyone interested check it out further.

Bob


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## RJSakowski (Aug 13, 2015)

Here are the web sites for Fusion 360: 
fusion360.autodesk.com  
cam.autodesk.com
You Tube:
Autodesk Fusion 360
Autodesk CAM


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## RJSakowski (Aug 13, 2015)

I just downloaded Fusion 360.  A correction to the statement about users.  It is free for students, instructors, hobbyists, enthusiasts, and startups making less than $100k/yr. ( I hope I got that right).  Gotta go play now.

Bob


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## JPigg55 (Aug 13, 2015)

I'll be watching to see what people think of it and if it will be free fo hobbyists past the trial period..


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## 09kevin (Aug 13, 2015)

Bob,
I may have missed it but, I didn't  see any mention of 4th axis programing on the Fusion 360 site, did the Autodesk reps mention if this will be available?

Kevin


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## RJSakowski (Aug 13, 2015)

JPigg55 said:


> I'll be watching to see what people think of it and if it will be free fo hobbyists past the trial period..


That's an interesting thought.  Many of the software products, CAD apps included started out free or at a very low cost to get them established and then jacked the prices way up.

The Autodesk reps told us in no uncertain terms that the intent was to keep the costs low for hobbyists, etc.  Their reasoning was that their goal was to make the app the most widely used professional CAD/CAM program.  If students, instructors, enthusiasts, hobbyists, and startups have easy access, it will be their program of choice.  As they migrate into larger companies, they will want to continue to use it and the user base will grow.  I don't know what the cost is for a professional seat but would expect it is comparable to other professional CAD and CAM packages.

The company that I used to work for had actually developed PTC Creo and sold it to PTC.  It was developed as an internal product for use in our electronic instrumentation division.  The other divisions used SolidWorks exclusively.  Several years back, we were told the the company would no longer provide SolidWorks licenses and we would have to migrate to Creo.  Our division said "no way unless you want to delay all the projects we were working on".  To this day, Creo has not yet replaced SolidWorks.   The point is precedent and tradition are very strong motivators.  Give a kid Fusion 360 and you've got him for life.

Anyway, that is my hope.  It would be a pleasant change of policy to permit occasional users  to use a professional quality program at a reasonable cost.

Bob


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## RJSakowski (Aug 13, 2015)

09kevin said:


> Bob,
> I may have missed it but, I didn't  see any mention of 4th axis programing on the Fusion 360 site, did the Autodesk reps mention if this will be available?
> 
> Kevin


Kevin,

You are correct.  They do not have 4th axis capability yet.  We were told possibly later this year.  One of the nice features about this program is they can make changes on the fly.  There are not multiple versions of the software.  Everyone is updated to the latest revision when they log in.

Bob


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## 09kevin (Aug 14, 2015)

Thanks, Bob.  I have been thinking about upgrading from Sprutcam7 to 9 but think I will wait and see how people like Fusion 360 before I make a decision. 

Kevin


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## sgisler (Aug 14, 2015)

I have it and like it. I started with the free trial (90 days or whatever it was) and the more I used it, the more I liked it. So I signed up for the pro version as a startup, so free. I have done a few modeling projects with it and have run through the CAM on a couple simple 'make believe' projects. There is still a lot to learn, but I did find that it has a post for my Ez Trak - cool!
Anyone thinking about it should sure give it a go. 


Stan,
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## coolidge (Aug 14, 2015)

CAD/CAM software is a real racket, being forced to pay exorbitant yearly maintenance fees just to get the bug fixes that should be free is irritating.


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## vertcnc (Aug 14, 2015)

I purchased the annual service i believe January, pricing is locked in at $300 per year, unlimited upgrades as long as you pay annual fee.  It has a bit of a learning curve like all CAD /CAM systems.  Have used it to program several 3d tool paths, and works great. I also use Solidworks with HSMxpress for tool paths and probably is my favorite.  HSMxpress (now owned by Autodesk) is a free 2d add-on.  Solidworks is not a cheap solution for hobbyist, but I belive they have a cheap addition for students, teachers,etc. 
I don't think you can go wrong with Fusion 360, plenty of followers and youtube videos for learning.


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## RJSakowski (Aug 14, 2015)

09kevin said:


> Thanks, Bob.  I have been thinking about upgrading from Sprutcam7 to 9 but think I will wait and see how people like Fusion 360 before I make a decision.
> 
> Kevin


If you do decide to upgrade SprutCAM, version 10 is in beta now and expected to release in the US in Oct./Nov.  Jumping from 7 to 9 or 10 is the full purchase price.

Bob


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## Cheeseking (Aug 14, 2015)

Wow i just got 9 this spring.  Where can I get info on what is new in 10?  The website makes no mention.


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## SEK_22Hornet (Aug 16, 2015)

A couple comments on the Fusion 360 - the way I read the terms, once download it, the trial period starts. After that, you can sign up for free as a qualifying non commercial or business startup, as already stated, for a year. At the end of that year, you can again sign up at no cost, as long as you still qualify for the non-commercial or startup. It does not read like it is limited to one year, the way I read it - you just have to re-qualify each year. On Windows, it will not run on a 32 bit operating system - you must have a 64 bit operating system. I found the info on the website concerning who qualifies for free to be well written and very clearly stated.


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## sgisler (Aug 16, 2015)

That's how I read it as well. 


Stan,
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RJSakowski (Aug 16, 2015)

SEK_22Hornet said:


> A couple comments on the Fusion 360 - the way I read the terms, once download it, the trial period starts. After that, you can sign up for free as a qualifying non commercial or business startup, as already stated, for a year. At the end of that year, you can again sign up at no cost, as long as you still qualify for the non-commercial or startup. It does not read like it is limited to one year, the way I read it - you just have to re-qualify each year. On Windows, it will not run on a 32 bit operating system - you must have a 64 bit operating system. I found the info on the website concerning who qualifies for free to be well written and very clearly stated.


You appear to be correct re: the term of use.  I stated that it was a one year period because I specifically asked the Autodesk rep. about the that issue and his response was one year.  It had been my impression that it was unlimited as well but I deferred to their knowledge.  I just looked at their website and it does appear that as long as you meet the qualifications for student, instructor hobbyist, enthusiast, or startup, it is indeed unlimited free use. Thanks for clarifying. 

I am running Windows 7, 64 bit and was not aware that it would not run on 32 bit systems.   I did not see any reference to 64 bit Windows systems  only.  Can you point us to the the webpage where you saw this?  

Bob


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## RJSakowski (Aug 16, 2015)

Cheeseking said:


> Wow i just got 9 this spring.  Where can I get info on what is new in 10?  The website makes no mention.


Talk to Tormach about Ver. 10.  They are the biggest sales outlet for US sales.  Apparently, Ver. 10 has already been released in Europe.  We actually had a preview of 10 as Tormach is running it through its paces now.

Bob


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## SEK_22Hornet (Aug 16, 2015)

I found out about the 64 bit requirement when I  tried to download it on my 32 bit machine - it gave me an error telling me my computer wasn't compatible, that I appeared to be running a 32 bit operating system, and that the software required a 64 bit operating system. I did not see that anywhere on their website, either. I tried 2 different machines, both running 32 bit Windows 7, with the same message. I intend to upgrade to 64 bit Windows 10 in the next few months, so I decided to wait until then to start my trial.


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## Inflight (Aug 17, 2015)

I've been using Fusion 360 for about six months now and love it.  After I watched the YouTube videos I was able to model complex parts with all the CAM tool paths in a mater of hours for a small R/C airplane motor, including nice renderings.


Since that exercise, everything I've build in my shop has been designed, modeled and CAM'd in Fusion360. This is the same CAM processor as HSM Works, but for a hobbyist like me, totally free.


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## RJSakowski (Aug 17, 2015)

Very nice!  The rendering is amazing compared to SolidWorks.  I could have better rendering but it would require a upgrade to in my video card and a rather expensive upgrade to SolidWorks Professional. 
I just began the Fusion 360 tutorials.  I imagine it will take some time to be able to create something like you have done but it looks like it will be a very worthwhile effort.

Bob


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## Inflight (Aug 17, 2015)

RJSakowski said:


> I could have better rendering but it would require a upgrade to in my video card...



Fusion 360 uses Cloud based rendering. Doesn't use my local resources at all.
In addition to static rendering, they can do 360 degree rotational renderings, again all cloud based.

Matt


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## petcnc (Aug 25, 2015)

Hey guys after reading your posts I downloaded and started learning it. It is my first CAD program so I cannot compare to something familiar but it looks amazing! I will try to learn it and I intend to make it my cns's workhorse.
Thank you for informin me of it's existence

Petros


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## Baithog (Dec 16, 2015)

I'm a bit late to the thread, but I have been twisting in the wind trying to come up with a way to effectively use my little X2 conversion. However which way I tried to go at it, it always came down to thousands up front or hundreds per month. I was well into sketchup when I realized that it did alright for woodworking joints, but failed with my machining designs unless I purchased the pro version. The same with turbocad. All of the cad approaches were either missing the CAM, or it was less than capable. And full featured, 3-D CAM ain't cheap either. Fusion360 sounded great until I read the licensing. I misinterpreted the licensing for enthusiasts, too. My thanks to Dan for pointing that out. There is a potential gotcha later on. While the educational licenses carry long term renewal commitment, the enthusiast license doesn't, and we could potentially see them take it away in the future. It is a common business model in the software domain to give it away until their users are hooked, then start charging or bombarding with ads. The 3-D printing fad is fading. Like the early personal computers (Comodor 64, Atari 2600, Timex Sinclair, and others) lack of software to make them more than just a toy was just not available. The same for 3-D printing. If Autodesk or someone else comes up with a mass market 3-D, integrated design program, they will become the standard for the next wave of truly useful 3-D printers for the home. 

I have started the Fusion360 video tutorials. I expect that this is going to be fun, and I may even do more than a couple of CNC projects this year because of it.


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## gjmontll (Dec 16, 2015)

Although I've owned TurboCad for several years, I'm a CAD novice. I didn't seriously start learning and using it until this spring when I started my "Greg's French 75 mm Cannon" project (see the Other Projects folder on our forums).  I struggle but do manage to get the job done, just not at all efficiently. 
Hearing about Fusion 360 on this forum, I investigated it for my hobby use. It looks promising, but I don't want to climb a new learning curve in mid-project. Regardless, I did download it and did a bit of playing around - not very successfully. 
My favorite method of learning new software is with a reference manual or perhaps a book. But I don't see any such items have been published. To learn it, it looks like I need to watch videos and do their tutorials.
My cannon project drawings have been 2D. So far, I haven't been able to import them into F360. But as I'm about to start on a new major assembly on the cannon, I may spend a day or two focused on getting acquainted with F360 then try to put it to work.
    Greg


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## SEK_22Hornet (Feb 9, 2016)

Finally got my 64 bit machine up and running and started working with Fusion 360. I admit I have struggled a bit to get started, but it is starting to click. I managed to get a 3d model of a part drawn up and started looking at the CAM side. No post for my machine, so I have now had to dive into modifying a post processor. I have a pretty good start on that using the Mach3 post as a starting point. Have done some playing with 2d and 3d milling strategies and am very impressed with what I have seen so far.  Need to spend a few hours more learning the finer points of modeling and finish up the post before starting to cut any metal. I will certainly stay with this and hope Autodesk keeps it out there for us to use in the hobby market. I have used BobCad-CAM at work for 2.5d router programming, importing dxf files from a cad program and really like the integrated cad-cam approach much better. I signed up for the fusion 360 forum and have poked around a bit, but need to dig into it to finish the post processor. I'll probably run out of winter before I get done! Here is my first model just for grins! - Dan


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## bjornsh67 (Feb 9, 2016)

I have a license for alibre pro, moi3d, rhino3d and simlab composer. Fusion 360 cost less than my maintenance fee for those tools  and i can even get fea, thermal simulation and what appears to be capable 3 axis cam package ( and for those who enjoy the finer art of surface modelling,tspline).

My worry is that fusion 360 is cloud based. But so can be said about alibre too....

Bjørn


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