# Milling Angles...? Sine Plate Or Tilt Vise?



## EmilioG

This is an operation on the mill that I have never attempted.  I don't own a sine plate or tilting vise,
so what do I need to mill angles to create 15° and other cuts on steel, e.g. to make a Jacobs style wedge
or toe/edge clamps and similar tools.  Can this be done safely and effectively on a tilting vise?

I would rather use a sine plate but the good quality plates are expensive. B&S or Suburban tool.
I may buy a good used plate, small.  I see them on Ebay, but then you also need a set of gage blocks.
All this can easily become a $500 purchase.  I see no other way to do this type of work accurately.
Thanks.


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## BGHansen

Here's how I've milled a block at an angle (lot's of methods):

1)  Dykem the part and scribe a layout line using a protractor (like the $9 one from CDCOtools.com below).  Set a parallel flat on top of the mill vise jaw and set the block so the layout line lines up with the parallel.  Then remove the parallel which will give you some clearance to the top of the vise.

2)  Use an adjustable angle block like the $42 one from CDCO below.  Set the angle block to the appropriate angle and hold it up against a vise jaw.  Set the part in place and tighten the vise.  Naturally the part will need to be wider than the angle block or you'll need to use some spacers between the moving vise jaw and the work to clamp it up.

3)  Use the 15 deg. angle block from the $25 set from CDCO.  Pretty much the same set up as #2.

I've used all three methods with success.  I'm sure there'll be a ton more ways posted on your thread from guys with a lot more experience than me.

Bruce


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## EmilioG

That's excellent. Thank you. Sine plate is nice but this should work.


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## Bob Korves

Does the head of your mill not tilt?  Tools like toe clamps do not need tools like sine plates to set a clearance angle.  What is the difference if you are a degree or so off?  You could make a wedge block to a random angle that visually looks good to you and then use it for making repeatable angles on parts, never measuring an angle in the process.  Sine bars and plates with gage blocks are for when you need a very accurate angle, like for instance, making a Morse taper shank that fits correctly, not a trivial project.  The angle blocks at the bottom of the pics that Bruce posted are inexpensive, easy and quick to use, and are accurate enough for the vast majority of work.


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## EmilioG

I really don't want to tilt the head of a mill back and forth.
Trivial is not a word I use to describe my projects, some things may not need super accuracy but others do.
I'll look in to the angle blocks but not sure I want to deal with CDCO machinery.  I'd rather pay a little more and
buy the Brown & Sharpe Precision angle block.  With 30% off= around $120.00.  I want better accuracy for other
projects that I have in the works.


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## Bob Korves

My statement was that making a Morse taper shank is not a trivial project.  Read it again, it had nothing to do with your projects.  My apologies for not communicating effectively if you took it that way.


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## EmilioG

No worries.  I take my work seriously, not myself. 
and, I don't like cheap tools.  I don't know much about CDCO but I've read a lot of bad reviews.


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## EmilioG

BGHansen said:


> Here's how I've milled a block at an angle (lot's of methods):
> 
> 1)  Dykem the part and scribe a layout line using a protractor (like the $9 one from CDCOtools.com below).  Set a parallel flat on top of the mill vise jaw and set the block so the layout line lines up with the parallel.  Then remove the parallel which will give you some clearance to the top of the vise.
> 
> 2)  Use an adjustable angle block like the $42 one from CDCO below.  Set the angle block to the appropriate angle and hold it up against a vise jaw.  Set the part in place and tighten the vise.  Naturally the part will need to be wider than the angle block or you'll need to use some spacers between the moving vise jaw and the work to clamp it up.
> 
> 3)  Use the 15 deg. angle block from the $25 set from CDCO.  Pretty much the same set up as #2.
> 
> I've used all three methods with success.  I'm sure there'll be a ton more ways posted on your thread from guys with a lot more experience than me.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> How did you hold the work down in the angle block? Did you put a vise in to it?  How is round or flat stock held in this type of angle block?


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## Bob Korves

Yes, CDCO seems a bit like a pawn shop on skid row, but I got the nicest BXA tool holder blocks there for the incredible price of $10 each.  I would not bet to repeat that deal again, and I also have read plenty of bad reviews on CDCO, especially if you want to return something...

Suburban Tool also sells those blocks, and Browne & Sharpe as you noted.  I think those are all China imports, subject to concern.  Unless they actually do calibration work on acceptance I would still be concerned, regardless of re-branding.  That is why you need a good reference, so you can check and perhaps calibrate them yourself.


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## EmilioG

Suburban Tools is mostly USA with a few value line products made in Taiwan.
The SPi angle block looks decent and they're known for quality tools.  That's OK. As long as it works well.
I'll keep looking.  Good inspection tools can tell you where or how far off you are. I'm not chasing tenths,
but I do like accurate measurements.


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## mikey

I'd like to suggest another option. I like and use a small machine vise on a tilting angle table that is perfect for smaller parts. Granted, I only have it for my Sherline mill at this point but I've done a whole load of stuff with it, and quite accurately, too. This allows me to grab the part sitting flat in the vise or on parallels instead of having the part angled in the vise. 

An angle block set like Bruce showed above is good to have, provided the blocks are accurate. My set is an import set that I checked with a vernier Starrett angle gauge and its more than accurate enough for my needs. I use them to set the table angle in conjunction with a DTI and it works fine. 

Granted, a sine vise will be more accurate but I rarely need that kind of accuracy. If I had a surface grinder then maybe I would use one. For milling an angle? No, haven't needed it so far.


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## Wreck™Wreck

This would depend entirely on the accuracy required, if seconds of an angle are demanded then a sine plate is needed, whole degree angles may often be accomplished with a protractor.

If the person that you are making a part for has the equipment to measure it and will do so then reject it as noncompliant then a sine plate is used.

If not just hold it in a mill vice at an angle or rotate the vice using the protractor then mill away.


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## brino

Lee Valley tools also has a set of angle blocks:
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32524&cat=1,43513,51657

They claim: "_Each block is 3" long, hardened and precision ground to an accuracy of 0.0001" per inch._"

at $43 USD ($59 CAD) it seems like a reasonable deal.
I had no problems returning the one bad tool I got from Lee Valley. (...out of the many, many I have purchased there!)

-brino


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## Tony Wells

With a sine plate (or a sine bar, much cheaper) you don't have to use gage blocks if you trust setting adjustable parallels. Just a way to save a buck or two, but everyone ought to have a shop grade gage block set anyway. But often, for vise work especially, a bar is easier to manipulate than a plate anyway, IMO.


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## Chip Hacket

One problem I've had with the angle blocks is that my vise is small (2 in).  Sometimes if I'm doing a steep angle the angle block takes up much of the space within the vise leaving little to clamp the part.


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## Chip Hacket

I've been considering gauge blocks and a sine bar, thinking I could fixture the work on the mill table.  I have an aluminum plate the size of my table.



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## Chip Hacket

Problem is, gauge blocks are fairly expensive.  And I just bought a new lathe.  
So much to do! So little time! So little money!


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## Tony Wells

An adequate shop grade 81 pc set can be had for less than $100.


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## Charles Spencer

BGHansen said:


> 2) Use an adjustable angle block like the $42 one from CDCO below. Set the angle block to the appropriate angle and hold it up against a vise jaw. Set the part in place and tighten the vise. Naturally the part will need to be wider than the angle block or you'll need to use some spacers between the moving vise jaw and the work to clamp it up.



This is the approach I'd probably use.  However, if you have a swivel base you could set the angle, lay the part flat, and mill it that way.


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## BGHansen

Guys have had mixed results from CDCO.  I've been very fortunate and only had one "buyer's remorse" case with a set of center line gauges for calipers.  The instructions said that the stock diameter was 1/2", so close the jaws with the extenders in place, tighten the set screws on the caliper jaws and zero out the calipers, but add 0.500" to your measurements.  The diameter is actually 3/8" . . .  The little set screws were total garbage, but other than that they work fine for a $9 tool.

I've bought a 5-C collet chuck and two sets of 5-C round collets (1/64" step set and 1/32" step set), set of 5-C square collets, 2" indicator with a mag back, couple of mag indicator bases, set of TNMT 1/2" lathe turning tools, at least 50 250-201 QCTP tool holders, etc. etc. and haven't had any problems with any of that stuff.  I think someone here posted having a problem with a mill X-axis power feed and wasn't treated well by CDCO on the return.  Shars is another source of Chinese tooling, I've never had a problem with any of their boring bars, calipers, etc. purchased from them.  Lots of options that unfortunately for the hobby machinist on a budget means supporting the Chinese economy instead of our own.  I could never justify buying the 50 or so 250-201 tool holders from Aloris at $60 a piece when the CDCO's at $11 work fine.  Good luck on your angle project!

Bruce


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## Bob Korves

BGHansen said:


> Guys have had mixed results from CDCO.  I've been very fortunate and only had one "buyer's remorse" case with a set of center line gauges for calipers.  The instructions said that the stock diameter was 1/2", so close the jaws with the extenders in place, tighten the set screws on the caliper jaws and zero out the calipers, but add 0.500" to your measurements.  The diameter is actually 3/8" . . .  The little set screws were total garbage, but other than that they work fine for a $9 tool.
> 
> I've bought a 5-C collet chuck and two sets of 5-C round collets (1/64" step set and 1/32" step set), set of 5-C square collets, 2" indicator with a mag back, couple of mag indicator bases, set of TNMT 1/2" lathe turning tools, at least 50 250-201 QCTP tool holders, etc. etc. and haven't had any problems with any of that stuff.  I think someone here posted having a problem with a mill X-axis power feed and wasn't treated well by CDCO on the return.  Shars is another source of Chinese tooling, I've never had a problem with any of their boring bars, calipers, etc. purchased from them.  Lots of options that unfortunately for the hobby machinist on a budget means supporting the Chinese economy instead of our own.  I could never justify buying the 50 or so 250-201 tool holders from Aloris at $60 a piece when the CDCO's at $11 work fine.  Good luck on your angle project!
> 
> Bruce
> 
> View attachment 143136


I agree with you, Bruce, and have had good luck there myself, but the combination of known hit or miss products and a seller known to to be difficult at returning items, combined together, gives me pause, especially on more expensive tools.  I will say, though, that my worst experience trying to return a misrepresented part was with MSC.


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## Tony Wells

Bruce, I have a pair of those, except I had to adapt them to measure across a groove in the face of a thrust bearing race. The OD was about 8", about an inch thick and the radius I was cutting was 0.6405, so those discs are 1.281 diameter and pressed on. I used them on 12" digimatic calipers. The parts were then carburized.


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## Chip Hacket

Well Guys, as luck would have it, I just received this box today from CDCO Tools.  Haven't opened it yet.  Should contain stuff for my new 8X12.  I hope my luck is good.  Even cheap things add up to cost a substantial amount of money

--Chip.


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## Chip Hacket

This is the QCTP that was in the box.  I got the suggestion from KenS on another thread. It's the wedge type for $122.  Says precision right there on the device.  That's all one needs to know right?  In all honesty it does seem pretty hefty.


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## Glenn Brooks

I have one of these  Bostar Qctp's.  Works well.  I think I bought mine from Little machine shop.  They offer excellent return policy and superb customer service.  Also got an angle block set from them two years ago - fine equipment for a hobbyist. I don't think you can go wrong buying from them.

Glenn


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## markba633csi

Yep I like LMS too, good service and return policy.  Not always the cheapest, but the service is worth a little more for me, esp. for import tools.
Mark S.


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## kwoodhands

EmilioG said:


> This is an operation on the mill that I have never attempted.  I don't own a sine plate or tilting vise,
> so what do I need to mill angles to create 15° and other cuts on steel, e.g. to make a Jacobs style wedge
> or toe/edge clamps and similar tools.  Can this be done safely and effectively on a tilting vise?
> 
> I would rather use a sine plate but the good quality plates are expensive. B&S or Suburban tool.
> I may buy a good used plate, small.  I see them on Ebay, but then you also need a set of gage blocks.
> All this can easily become a $500 purchase.  I see no other way to do this type of work accurately.
> Thanks.



A quick and easy way is to cut a wooden wedge that will fit in your vice. The wedge should be slightly less in width than the part so the jaws can tighten up. I use this method often for model engines that use 16-1/2° or 8°. Not sure what degree of accuracy you need but I can assure you a wedge cut on a miter saw is as accurate as the small angle fixture shown on other posts. I have that same fixture and rarely use it, the size gets in the way to tighten the vice. I would need taller jaw to make it useful.


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## EmilioG

I picked these up for an excellent price:$65,  Spi  made in USA 12 piece angle block set in nice wood case.
This set is from the early 90's and is in near perfect condition.  Looks like they were only used for inspection.  Hard to find USA made blocks now. Suburban tools are excellent, but very expensive.

USA Made in mint condition 12 piece set. Spi
CDCO's claims of .0001" accuracy is hopeful at best.  with this Spi set, I can set accurate angles on
an angle vise or plate that isn't so accurate., then double check with a Starrett vernier protractor.


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## sanddan

EmilioG said:


> No worries.  I take my work seriously, not myself.
> and, I don't like cheap tools.  I don't know much about CDCO but I've read a lot of bad reviews.



Buy what you can afford.

I've used the angle blocks to setup for an angle cut before, works great for small parts that fit in the vise.


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## Reeltor

For what it's worth, I was surprised when I saw the cute little Surface Gage from Brown & Sharpe was made in India.
I also bought several items from CDCO and was pleased with the product for the price.


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## mmcmdl

EmilioG said:


> This is an operation on the mill that I have never attempted.  I don't own a sine plate or tilting vise,
> so what do I need to mill angles to create 15° and other cuts on steel, e.g. to make a Jacobs style wedge
> or toe/edge clamps and similar tools.  Can this be done safely and effectively on a tilting vise?
> 
> I would rather use a sine plate but the good quality plates are expensive. B&S or Suburban tool.
> I may buy a good used plate, small.  I see them on Ebay, but then you also need a set of gage blocks.
> All this can easily become a $500 purchase.  I see no other way to do this type of work accurately.
> Thanks.




As a toolmaker apprentice I made about 35 sine bars for the shop .


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## dave2176

What about one of these tilting tables? The small ones seem reasonable priced.


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## Ken from ontario

I recently was trying to mill a 20° angle on a 2"x 2" block of Aluminum, do not own an angle block set or a tilting vise, so as I was searching the net to find an easy solution that I could understand and follow, I found this youtube video that showed me exactly how to accurately  cut a 20° angle without angle blocks,here's the video:


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## RJSakowski

A sine plate is not required to set accurate angles.  They can be set up with simple blocks with just a small increase in complexity.  The following drawing shows the setup.


A block, B, of appropriate height is chosen.   Blocks X, X', and B are clamped to the table.  Block X' keeps block B from pivoting when block P is clamped.  Block Y is clamped distance a from block B.  Plate P is laid in place and the workpiece or work holding device is clamped to plate P.  Block B and plate P should have reasonably sharp edges for accurate setup.  Calculate a' and a from the equations in the drawing. 

For best stability, clamp the work and workpiece between B and Y.


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## EmilioG

If the part to be milled is small enough, can't it be clamped to a slotted angle plate with the angle plate in a vise? (slotted angle plate, no web, in the vise like a V).
The angle can be set with blocks and checked with an accurate protractor?  I've seen small work done this way.


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## mrehmus

dave2176 said:


> What about one of these tilting tables? The small ones seem reasonable priced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 189594


Most of them are not square unless you pay many dollars for them. I have one that leans very slightly to one side. Enco brand IIRC.


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## mrehmus

Sine bars are good up to around 45 degrees and then their accuracy decreases rapidly. The angle plates are good enough for almost all general needs.


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## Winegrower

Here’s the cheapest most accurate and fastest way to cut precise angles i’ve found.   Take one of your old bench vises and do as shown.   Place the rods exactly some easy distance apart, 5” is typical.   The vise can be clamped crosswise in your larger mill vise with one rod raised x”, where x = 5” times sin of desired angle.
View attachment 272854
View attachment 272854
View attachment 272854
View attachment 272855


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## Winegrower

How do I get the extra copies in the previous post deleted??   Duh?


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## P. Waller

Since you require a high degree of angular accuracy only a sine plate will do, drop the cash and be done with it.


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## RobertHaas

I built a sine plate, not a huge project, (except for drilling and tapping hundreds of holes


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