# How good is a bad Bridgeport?



## Investigator

Just trying to get an idea what conditions to settle for in a used Bridgeport. I have a round column 8x28 now, it is what it is but within its envelope it does good work. If I'm looking at used and possibly abused mills, how much wear and tear on a full size B'port would still be better than a new square column from China?

I know that is a really subjective question without a definite answer, but I don't know how else to put it.   I'm not talking about needing to replace a motor, or cross feed, just the basic wear and tear on the ways, table and spindle.  I don't want to buy one and need to do a full rebuild and scrape the ways to get it where I can use it.  I can handle backlash with careful use.  I won't be making parts for NASA, this would be for a home shop, I need the machine to hold at least .005" and a minimum of .003" would be better.

Scott


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## mmcmdl

I've sold nice BPs in the $3000 range , all with readouts and power feeds . They were variable speeds , the pulley heads were $2200-$2400 . I have a BP in the garage that I might be selling soon , at this point , I can't get the Kubota into the garage .


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## benmychree

On the other hand, how bad is a good Asian import?


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## pontiac428

How much better is a worn BP compared to it's high grade clones, like Lagun or the Taiwanese badges like Acer, Sharp, Atrump, Supermax, etc?


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## mmcmdl

I had the Lagun FTV-2 and loved it . 10 x 50 inch table . It went to some foreign country that the buyer was queen . No kidding .  Showed up in a Rolls Royce and peeled out 31 Benjamins , picked it up the next day .








						Look What I Found In The Garage !
					

:dancing banana:I found my mill finally after many months of cleaning and sorting . It's a Lagun FTV-2S that I reclaimed from one of my former companies last year . I used to run it back in 89 when it was new . It has been taken care of and is still tight ! Now , to get some juice hooked to it .




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## jwmay

Once saw the table shift a 1/8” as it entered the work on a worn out Lagun. I determined this machine to be garbage, and never again graced the handwheels with my loving embrace. But my supervisor, a toolmaker of forty years, uses that machine day in and day out, turning out “one off” parts to tolerance as if it were a brand new machine. He even repainted it, and has had it moved twice, in order to keep it nearby his office, as he’s been shuffled through departments. How good is a bad Bridgeport? About as good as the man at the cranks. 

Even so...I’d buy the new square column.


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## Janderso

Speaking from experience, 
I owned a worn out Bridgeport, 
I was able to do some decent work. Having a knee mill is great.
It’s frustrating that the full travel of your X axis goes from smooth as glass (loose) to very tight at the ends. A bent table is common.
Over torquing the T-nuts over the years causes the table to warp. The slop in the ways is common, you can overcome it by locking down everything you can.
I don’t have the time or energy to rebuild a worn out mill.
Buy one that serves you well.
My 2 cents sir.


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## projectnut

Personally I'm not a fan of the Chinese machines.  I've used a few in my day, but they were disappointing experiences compared to the US made iron.  I do own a Bridgeport, but again it was not originally my machine of choice.  I was originally looking for a Tree brand machine, specifically the 2UVR model.  We had several Bridgeports, and Trees in our shop, and the Trees were by far the easiest (for us short guys) to setup and use.  Changing tooling was easier, and the Tree machines seemed more stout and less prone to vibration.

That being said I looked for over 2 years for my first mill and found every Tree machine on the market to be either wildly over priced, or worn to the point it would have taken more time and money to refurbish than it was worth.  In addition I found the tooling to be far more expensive and much harder to find.

One thing I did note throughout my search was that machines that appeared to be run hard and put away wet generally reflected lack of attention in their state of repair.  Those covered with dried cutting oil, filthy oil and grease fittings, and covered in chips showed far more wear than those kept clean and regularly lubricated.  On the other hand those with no signs of having been used, and sporting a fresh paint raised red flags as to what the condition of the machine was before the new paint was applied.

I almost put purchasing a mill on the back burner until someone alerted me to one from a local high school that was sold at an auction.  The buyer bought it as part of a lot and was only interested in keeping another machine in the lot which happened to be a Clausing lathe.  I contacted the buyer and went over for an inspection.  What I found was a mill in reasonable condition for a reasonable price.  There was about .030 backlash in the X lead screw, and .020 in the Y lead screw.  The table didn't bind throughout the length of travel, and did not get tight near the ends.  The variable speed head was quiet and would easily shift from high to low range, and the auto down feed worked properly.  About the only problem I found was that the ram wouldn't change position regardless of how loose the retaining bolts were.  After an extended period in storage the ways on the ram had rusted to the point the head wouldn't move.  About a weeks worth of daily doses of penetrating oil finally freed the head. 

Digging into the history of the machine I found it was originally purchased by the high school in 1972.  It was in their machine shop until about 1992.  At that time it was replaced by an early CNC machine and sent into storage.  In 2002 the school district deemed it to be surplus and was auctioned off at that time.  Essentially it sat for 10 years in a store room.   If the machine is being sold by the original owner they should be able to provide some history.  If it's being sold by a vendor they should know where it came from and what type of work it did.

I guess my point is that a relatively thorough inspection will needed on any machine you are truly interested in to be sure the machine will be "reasonable" condition.  Many can be dismissed due to obvious lack of maintenance and operator care.  Patience and perseverance are the keys to finding a good machine at a reasonable price.  Don't be fooled by a machine that looks shiny and appears to have little or no wear.  These machines were purchased to work on a daily basis.  If the normal wear parts like crank handles, feed levers, and adjustment fasteners don't show some wear proceed with caution.


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## vocatexas

There was a pretty nice looking B-port clone on Dallas Craigslist not long ago. I see some from time to time up in your area. There's a Craigslist ad in San Angelo for a guy selling out a machine shop. He lists two mill/drill machines (a large and a small), but doesn't have pics or any description. The large one could be a B-port, or may be something else.


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## Investigator

My question is difficult to put into words, both the asking and the answering.  Let me put it in terms I am more used to.  
I've been a commercial mower for several years, putting it in those terms..... A commercial Scag zero turn rider is a pure joy to use. It cuts great, has lots of power to get through tall and thick grass and even light brush.  A Commercial Scag with thousands of hours on it isn't anything a pro would keep using in most cases.  But that same unit for a guy with a large yard he mows once a week would still be far and away better than the 38" rider he could get new at a big box store.

Does a B'port knee mill start out with such a high level of quality and accuracy that even after years of use and wear it is still better than an new square column?


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## BGHansen

Depends on where you want to spend your time.  You can pick up a very nice BP in my area (Michigan) for $3000.  No work required to get it up and running.  I looked at a project years ago for $1000.  Head made a ton of noise, table had been drilled/milled multiple times, surface rust all over, broken crank handles, lots of play in the table (gib adjustment?), etc.  I had to budget to buy something that didn't need to be worked on and was making parts minutes after it was powered up.  You could save some money on a fixer upper, but around here the price difference wasn't worth it in my case. 

Might be best to find a nicer machine and not have to rebuild it.  I always ask the seller why they're parting with the item.  Not that they'll be truthful, but maybe they're tired of fiddling with the problems and bought something that works.  Here are some Texas-area Bridgeports and clones on CL.

Bruce

$1500 - Acer 10 x 50








						Milling machine
					

For Sale. $1,500. Acer milling machine 10”x50”. Better shape than what she looks. Variable speed head, pretty tight XY and Z. Has Mititoyo scales on X and Y but no DRO. One shot lube, vise, chuck and



					lubbock.craigslist.org
				




$4300 Sharp 10 x 50 CNC machine with controller issues








						Sharp TMV Vertical Milling Machine 10x50 w Kurt D688 Vise T134513
					

220V/440 3 Ph Table 10x50 Spindle Motor 3 HP Table Travel x Axis 35 inches Table Travel Y Axis 16.3 inches Table Travel Z axis 5 inches Report: Control turns on, loads program but is reporting a...



					elpaso.craigslist.org
				




$1750 Bridgeport that needs work








						BRIDGEPORT MILLING MACHINE
					

Nice Bridgeport milling machine. Recently head gear started slipping so it will require some work to make it fully functional. X,Y and Z axis tables move freely and no play between them. Wired 220,...



					houston.craigslist.org
				




$6900 Looks to be recently rebuilt BP








						@~Bridgeport Vertical Milling Machine 42~@
					

!!!!!Hey S/N 6283 DRO on table Will entertain best offer Inspection is by appointment only, most weekdays and Saturday mornings. Feel free to contact me, Steve, with any questions by email or cell If



					houston.craigslist.org
				




$5900 Sharp 9 x 48








						SHARP VERTICAL MILLING MACHINE 3 HP 48 X 9" TABLE CHROME WAYS
					

SHARP VERTICAL MILLING MACHINE 3 HP 48 X 9" TABLE CHROME WAYS 48" TABLE DRO POWER FEED NEAR NEW Machine CALL FOR DETAILS https://machineinventory.shop/shop?olsPage=products



					sanantonio.craigslist.org
				




$4500 BP 9 x 42








						Bridgeport Milling Machine Model 1-VS - Power Feed
					

Bridgeport Milling Machine Model 1-VS Specifications: Table Size 9" x 42" Table Travel Longitudinal 30" Table Travel Cross 12” Table Travel Vertical (Knee) 16” Head Vertical Travel (Quill) 5” Quill...



					dallas.craigslist.org
				




$4000 BP - step pulley model








						Bridgeport Milling Machine
					

Good Bridgeport mill will little use. 3 phase, cane from college, working when removed from service and use used for training only. Located in Nederland and forklift in site for loading. Asking $4000



					houston.craigslist.org
				




$7900 RAM CNC mill








						➣➣NEAR NEW Cnc Milling Machine -Knee MILL 10 x 50 Table 4VH 3 Axis
					

WE HAVE ANOTHER ONE LIKE THIS BUT ITS THE NEXT SIZE UP YOU CAN DO THIS MANUAL OR CNC MODE SPECIFICATIONS SPINDLE NOSE R-8 SPINDLE SPEEDS 70 TO 4,200 RPM SPINDLE DRIVE MOTOR 3HP TABLE SIZE 10 X 50"...



					houston.craigslist.org


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## projectnut

Investigator said:


> My question is difficult to put into words, both the asking and the answering.  Let me put it in terms I am more used to.
> I've been a commercial mower for several years, putting it in those terms..... A commercial Scag zero turn rider is a pure joy to use. It cuts great, has lots of power to get through tall and thick grass and even light brush.  A Commercial Scag with thousands of hours on it isn't anything a pro would keep using in most cases.  But that same unit for a guy with a large yard he mows once a week would still be far and away better than the 38" rider he could get new at a big box store.
> 
> Does a B'port knee mill start out with such a high level of quality and accuracy that even after years of use and wear it is still better than an new square column?


The short answer is YES.

The Bridgeport milling machine, like the Scag mower you refer to is built for thousands of hours of dependable service.  Both are built to serve the professional all day every day.  With routine maintenance and minimal repairs it will produce quality parts and last for decades.  Like the mower should you need parts they are available at a reasonable cost and in a timely manner.  I have had my Bridgeport nearly 20 years (the machine is 47 years old) and have not had to purchase a single replacement part due to wear or damage.  I have added a DRO and replaced a couple parts that were missing when I purchased it.  I don't use the machine the same number of hours as in a professional setting, but I have used it as much as 60 hrs. a week, with the average being closer to 10-15 hrs. a week.

As for the import mill drills I'm not aware of what if any replacement parts are available.  I do have a couple friends that went the import route several years ago.  Both were professional machinists (now retired).  They both used their machines extensively and after a few years both machines started to show signs of considerable wear.  Both have now been replaced with Bridgeport's.  One was replaced with a brand new machine to the tune of over $14,000.00 while the other was replaced with a well equipped used machine at a cost of around $3,500.00.

As for the mower, personally even though I now only mow an acre or so on a weekly basis I would never buy a cheap mower from a big box store.  I believe in the long run it's better to spend the money up front for a quality piece of equipment.   Nearly 20 years ago I purchased a JD 445 AWS garden tractor for mowing, hauling, plowing, and other landscaping work.  I all the time I've had it the only thing it's needed are regular oil and transmission fluid changes, a couple batteries, and a new set of tires.  It starts every time I turn the key and does everything I ask it to do without hesitation.


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## mmcmdl

I use an Exmark Lazer Z 60 on my 2 properties that total 2 acres . Why ? Because most of the mowers are now built offshores . I have restored older IH and CC SGTs for years and have them all over the country . The newer stuff basically sucks with the vertical engines . I also own a Toro TimeCutter 42" for a backup cheap mower and I bought a new Ariens 52" ZTM the beginning of this summer . The Exmark and Toro now sit un-used . I also run a Kubota diesel with a 60" deck , front end loader , post hole digger , 6 foot rake , grader box , etc . Not sure what this has to do with mills , but heck , if you see a good deal on a BP go for it . That's a no brainer .


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## ezduzit

Avoid bottom feeding clapped out domestic or cheap-crap Asian machines. Find a quality machine in excellent condition with comprehensive tooling.


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## Cheeseking

ezduzit said:


> Avoid bottom feeding clapped out domestic or cheap-crap Asian machines. Find a quality machine in excellent condition with comprehensive tooling.



Sure. Buy once cry once however the challenge to this approach lately is finding such a machine for sale. 
Even if you have as much as 5-10k in your pocket and are ready and willing to spend it on a mill - the truly truly truly i said it 3x nice ones (not “re-built” / painted etc) are rare. Really rare.
Folks that have the nice ones for the most part keep them. I say that because I happen to own such a machine and it will go to the grave with me. 
So if you are patient, have money in hand, a truck/trailer ready to go and a bit of right place right time luck then I highly recommend waiting for a nice one then pounce. 
Don’t hesitate or you will always regret it.


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## Flyinfool

If you are really lucky and can find a Tree 2UVR in reasonable condition, by all means don't even worry about ripping you pocket getting the cash out fast, it will not last long. I scored one by getting lucky and answed the addwithin 5 minutes, made the deal on the phone, and had 4 other parties show up for it while I was loading it. Mine was a total steal at $1000, with a 2 axis DRO, AND a full pallet of tooling. The Tree is definatly better than a Bridgeport but they are very rare. This is not to say a Bridgeport is bad, far from it, I would not hesitate or spend time thinking about a Bridgeport that you find or it will be gone by the time you decide especially if it is a good one.


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## Cheeseking

We had a few but too hard find parts for old Tree mill. Zps in WI may be the only option.
Crazy special spindle taper kind of like Cincinnati Toolmasters. Good machines but use proprietary collets.
Something R8 is going to be a better choice IMO.


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## vocatexas

On a side note- when you look for stuff in Texas you have to remember- from Houston to El Paso is 750 miles and Houston isn't even close to the eastern border. This is a BIG state. Texarcana is closer to Chicago than it is to El Paso.


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## jwmay

I’ve had my little round column mill for a few years now I think. It’s still as good as it ever was. 

If I get your mower analogy correct, I oughta just keep quiet. I never owned anything but a piddly little round column mill drill. The equivalent of a 10 hp Craftsman rider circa 1998.  My lawn hasn’t suffered though, so far as my own experience can tell.  

From the many professional machinists I know, a Bridgeport, well used, would still be leagues above it in every regard.  Most would decline to even call my mill/drill a milling machine.  They might call it a “hobby mill thing” or “a really nice drill press”...but not a milling machine.  

I don’t know anybody in person that’s used the square column jobbers. It’ll probably be hard to find someone who’s had both, which is what you’re looking for really.  Good luck! And not that you asked, but don’t buy anything sight unseen for fear of losing the deal of a lifetime. They made a whole bunch of these things. There will always be another one.


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## Joeman77

I guess it depends what you're after. I've got an Alliant, a BP clone from the 80's that I've owned for about 25 years, wouldn't trade it for a new Chinese anything. I've run the cheap stuff a few times and that was enough.
 Just remember, you can't duplicate nice rigid heavy iron with light bench-top castings and that's the difference.


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## projectnut

Cheeseking said:


> We had a few but too hard find parts for old Tree mill. Zps in WI may be the only option.
> Crazy special spindle taper kind of like Cincinnati Toolmasters. Good machines but use proprietary collets.
> Something R8 is going to be a better choice IMO.



The Tree mills were originally made in Racine.  There still seems to be a fair amount of tooling and a number of machines for sale in the Wisconsin area.  It's getting to the point that what's left on the market is slowly coming down in price.  Last year a friend of mine purchased a NOS taper boring head from a local used equipment dealer for $200.00.  Those heads originally cost around $1,000.00.

I think it's purely a function of supply and demand.  There are far fewer Tree machines in service than there were 30 years ago, but the tooling is nearly bullet proof.  We had at least a dozen Tree brand machines in our shop(s), but as far as I know only 3 are still in service.  They were purchased by a local shop when the company closed the inhouse shop in 2000.  All 3 seem to be in good condition, and well tooled.


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## Janderso

I know 3 guys that have Tree mills. One of them has two.
I can't look them in the eyes without looking away.  
Great milling machines.


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## Joeman77

Investigator said:


> My question is difficult to put into words, both the asking and the answering.  Let me put it in terms I am more used to.
> I've been a commercial mower for several years, putting it in those terms..... A commercial Scag zero turn rider is a pure joy to use. It cuts great, has lots of power to get through tall and thick grass and even light brush.  A Commercial Scag with thousands of hours on it isn't anything a pro would keep using in most cases.  But that same unit for a guy with a large yard he mows once a week would still be far and away better than the 38" rider he could get new at a big box store.
> 
> Does a B'port knee mill start out with such a high level of quality and accuracy that even after years of use and wear it is still better than an new square column?


Well, if the two started out life equal it would probably be different, but realize they aren't designed with to function the same right off the get-go. The B-Port (or clone) was designed to split tenths repeatably for daily use over many highly repairable/rebuildable years and parts are available to do just that, unless it's been badly abused it will do just that. The "Square column" units are designed to maybe hold within a couple of thousandths. And aren't really designed to throw away, but parts can be a challenge. And like it or not if you use it, regardless of how careful you are at some time going to have a crash and need support.
 Also remember, lots of times the big heavy one (lathe, mill, grinder or whatever) probably doesn't need a stand but, will probably be 3 phase and might actually be cheaper because lots of "new to the game" guys don't understand how easy it is to make or use, VFD's are getting more affordable and make the 3rd phase quick & easy.
 I know it's become a bit long-winded but ...


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## kopeck

I had the same exact question you did, I was thinking I wanted a smaller import mill.  I wanted to avoid something with a round column but I wasn't picky other than that.  Most used ones in my area will still fetching a good price, some more than you could order one new (how does that work?).

Then a few BPs became available close by for a decent price.  I ended up buying one, I figured A) having a worn mill is better than no mill, B) Any tooling and experience I pickup along the way will be easily transferred to a newer/better BP or BP clone in the future.

Yeah mines worn but it doesn't have any major binding issues so it's worn evenly at the very least.  They were also using it right up to the point where I bought it so everything works though a few things need some attention.  It was cheap enough that I can fix some things and still be OK.

Not sure if I did the right thing or not.  We will see.

K


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## mksj

I have to agree with Bruce, find a nice used machine that isn't worn out, or consider a Taiwanese clone. Depends on what you want to spend, and the scope/size of work. You are not going to wear out any of these machines using them as a hobbyist. I had a new mainland Chinese square column mil (Optimum BF-30) that I purchased at a little over 3K about 10 years ago and could do tight tolerance work with no issues. I hated the ergonomics and that everything was cobbled together even though it was considered high end. It now sells for 5K+. Parts were a nightmare, and there was little support from the dealer who later went out of business. I sold it and purchased a new Sharp (Acra) which has been trouble free and a pleasure to use. I would never go back to a square column Asian mill unless I was downsizing and had limited space.

I looked at the used market, Bridgeport's were typically over priced for what you got, the Lagun's FTV-2's I checked out seemed to be in better condition at a lower price. They all needed some work, the variable speed drives were noisy and often the table  drives weren't working. The ones I looked at were back-up machines in shops that mostly went CNC, or didn't pass accuracy requirements which were 0.0005". I was looking at  3K plus probably another 1K to rebuild the heads and drives. The Sharp (Acra) new started at 6K for the base model, lots of other Taiwanese mills in that price range. I also wanted to make sure parts were available, and they were mainstream models that had been around for a long time. That parts were available from multiple sources.  

If I had a budget of 3-4K I would have gone with the used market in a machine that wasn't worn out or required minimal work to getting it working well. At 5-6K, either a pristine used mill with all the add ons or something new. I do not see that the Bridgeport name alone assures you that it is any better then say a Lagun, the Lagun's I milled with were solid and a pleasure to use. I purchase my mill and lathe to be the last machines I expect to buy until I am long gone, and then someone else will get to enjoy them after me.


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## ArmyDoc

Maybe a more specific example would be helpful.  For ~ $4000, which would you choose?
Bridgeport like this:
https://machineinventory.shop/shop?...on-bridgeport-milling-machine-basic-1-hp-mikk

or the PM 833T, which is from Taiwan, and with a base it is about the same price
https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-833t-page/


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## ezduzit

ArmyDoc said:


> Maybe a more specific example would be helpful.  For ~ $4000, which would you choose?
> Bridgeport like this:
> https://machineinventory.shop/shop?olsPage=products/recondition-bridgeport-milling-machine-basic-1-hp-mikk
> 
> or the PM 833T, which is from Taiwan, and with a base it is about the same price
> https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-833t-page/



Neither is a good buy. You want to find a fair deal, from a private party, on a quality, used machine, in excellent condition, with comprehensive tooling package.


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## ArmyDoc

ezduzit said:


> Neither is a good buy. You want to find a fair deal, from a private party, on a quality, used machine, in excellent condition, with comprehensive tooling package.



OK.  But between these two, which would be the better machine?


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## ezduzit

The Bridgeport.


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## ArmyDoc

ezduzit said:


> The Bridgeport.


Cool.  That's good to know, because I suspect the 833T arguably represents best of class for bench-top square mills (i.e. it's as good as anything out there in it's class).  If a bridgeport in decent condition is better at even money, it is clearly better if you can find one for a grand less (or more), especially if it comes with tooling.


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## kb58

Well, ASSUMING it's not worn out to the point that it'll cost more to bring it back to specs better than a new import. That's a real issue since Bridgeports these days can be upwards of 40-80 yrs old. Choose wisely.


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## markba633csi

I would pick one of the short-table Bridgeports; I think they made 32" and 36" sizes.  The common long 42" tables are often bent and worn  badly in the middle.  Many avoid the older round ram machines, but they are essentially a large beefy version of the Clausing 8520, and are often available for less
I like the step pulley heads over the variable speeders, less to wear and repair
Mark


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## ArmyDoc

kb58 said:


> Well, ASSUMING it's not worn out to the point that it'll cost more to bring it back to specs better than a new import. That's a real issue since Bridgeports these days can be upwards of 40-80 yrs old. Choose wisely.


 Was assuming since it says refurbished, it should be in decent condition... not a good assumption?


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## ddickey

Not a good assumption. 
To me reconditioned means a cleaning and paint.
Rebuilt means scraping/reground ways and bearings.


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## ArmyDoc

ddickey said:


> Not a good assumption.
> To me reconditioned means a cleaning and paint.
> Rebuilt means scraping/reground ways and bearings.


Thanks.  Hopefully I find something in a private sale when the time comes.  My biggest fear is that, as a beginner, I end up spending Thousands on junk.


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## ezduzit

ArmyDoc said:


> ...My biggest fear is that, as a beginner, I end up spending Thousands on junk.



That should be pretty easy to avoid if you simply pay for a pre-purchase inspection by a pro.


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## ArmyDoc

ezduzit said:


> That should be pretty easy to avoid if you simply pay for a pre-purchase inspection by a pro.


Where / how would I arrange that?


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## ezduzit

ArmyDoc said:


> Where / how would I arrange that?



Use your own imagination and tell us what you come up with.


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## MikeInOr

I found a pristine Jet knee mill locally for a great price and jumped on it.  The is no question in my mind that when a part doesn't turn out up to my expectations that the problem is me and not the mill... and I know that I can make the part better without being constrained by the mill.

I love old American iron and have a shop full of it but sometimes Asian iron makes more sense for me.  I have no doubt that a practically new Bridgeport will outlast my Jet in any kind of daily business usage... but for my weekend hobby shop I know my Jet mill will have absolutely no problem outlasting me... by many, many years!


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## ArmyDoc

ezduzit said:


> Use your own imagination and tell us what you come up with.


Well rats.  I thought you might actually know of some mechanism or organization that offered that sort of service. 
But, not knowing any professional machinists, and this not being much of an industrial town, I guess I'll just have to do the best I can, and hope for the best.  Alternatively, I guess I could just buy a lesser machine new... hard to say which is the better bet.  Kind of the point of this thread, don't you think?


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## FOMOGO

You could give a shout out on here. I think we have a few members in Georgia. If not read through the Bridgeport section of this forum. You should be able to glean enough to at least make an informed opinion. My 74' vintage series 1 was in decent shape when I got it, and I learned a lot going through it to fix a few issues that I found. I don't know that they are any better than many of the Taiwan or Spanish copies, but they are the one that everyone else imitated. Which is after all the sincerest form of flattery. Mike


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## ezduzit

ArmyDoc said:


> Well rats.  I thought you might actually know of some mechanism or organization that offered that sort of service.
> But, not knowing any professional machinists, and this not being much of an industrial town, I guess I'll just have to do the best I can, and hope for the best.  Alternatively, I guess I could just buy a lesser machine new... hard to say which is the better bet.  Kind of the point of this thread, don't you think?



Come on! You just have to do better than that. Don't wait around for someone else to do all the work for you.

Find out who sells and repairs lathes in your area; check with local machines shops, trade schools and manufacturers, etc.


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## ArmyDoc

ezduzit said:


> Come on! You just have to do better than that. Don't wait around for someone else to do all the work for you.
> 
> Find out who sells and repairs lathes in your area; check with local machines shops, trade schools and manufacturers, etc.


You misunderstand.  I while I would be happy to pay someone who knows what they are doing for their time and expertise, I don't know anyone with that expertise.  The nearest place (other than harbor freight) that sell lathes is in Atlanta, about 2 1/2 hours away - there isn't anything local that I've found, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up. 
I intend to do all the necessary homework and educate myself the best I can.  This thread was actually the tipping point for that decision.  The knowledge that a used Bridgeport's is going to be more capable than a new top of the line bench top was key.
My response was to your seeming to imply that to avoid a clunker I need to have a professional look over the machine.  I dont know anyone like that...dont even know any hobbiests.  
The suggestion to check out the trade schools is a good one though, and as someone suggested, there might be someone from GA who frequents these forums.  Hopefully one of the two will happen, but if not, I'll do whatever I can to learn what I can, and make the best choice I can. 
Worst case scenario, I buy a clunker, learn what I can from it and in the process learn why it's a clunker, sell it and get something better. 
Sorry if my comment about just getting a bench lathe came across as giving up.  I meant that I could always go that route (it wouldn't be the end of the world) but if that was the best decision, why would getting a Bridgeport be the recommendation?
No, I think I'll give old iron a try.  My budget for a mill was/is about 3k.  Time frame to purchase is a year or two from now, so I have plenty of time to educate myself.  If I can find a used machine with the potential to be better than an even more expensive bench top, I'll roll the dice...after loading them to whatever extent I can, of course


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## ArmyDoc

FOMOGO said:


> You could give a shout out on here. I think we have a few members in Georgia. If not read through the Bridgeport section of this forum. You should be able to glean enough to at least make an informed opinion. My 74' vintage series 1 was in decent shape when I got it, and I learned a lot going through it to fix a few issues that I found. I don't know that they are any better than many of the Taiwan or Spanish copies, but they are the one that everyone else imitated. Which is after all the sincerest form of flattery. Mike


Thanks for the suggestion, I think I'll do that.  Which forum would be the best for asking if there are members near me, the new members forum, or the general forum?  Or somewhere else?


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## matthewsx

Reach out to Richard King, He's a forum sponsor and has students all over the place. With a year or two to learn you can probably accomplish a decent inspection yourself, this stuff is WAY more straightforward than what you're used to working on

Cheers,

John


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## ThinWoodsman

ArmyDoc said:


> No, I think I'll give old iron a try.  My budget for a mill was/is about 3k.  Time frame to purchase is a year or two from now, so I have plenty of time to educate myself.  If I can find a used machine with the potential to be better than an even more expensive bench top, I'll roll the dice...after loading them to whatever extent I can, of course



In the meantime, look at a few mills as they pop up on CL. You'll learn a lot just talking to the sellers and checking out a few different ones. Then just say "well, that's way too big for my basement" or "nope, best I can do right now is fifty bucks, but maybe in a couple weeks" and hightail it out of there. Some guys will be annoyed because they just want a quick turnaround, but others (especially those retiring) love the chance to talk about their iron.


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## kb58

$3k is more than enough to find a used mill in good condition; you just have to be patient.


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## sdelivery

jwmay said:


> Once saw the table shift a 1/8” as it entered the work on a worn out Lagun. I determined this machine to be garbage, and never again graced the handwheels with my loving embrace. But my supervisor, a toolmaker of forty years, uses that machine day in and day out, turning out “one off” parts to tolerance as if it were a brand new machine. He even repainted it, and has had it moved twice, in order to keep it nearby his office, as he’s been shuffled through departments. How good is a bad Bridgeport? About as good as the man at the cranks.
> 
> Even so...I’d buy the new square column.


When I started out as a machinist in training most everything was old and worn and you LEARNED how to make a good part on a worn machine and you never ever blamed the machine for your error.....the old timers would get madder than if you said something about their wife!


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## mmcmdl

LOL , when I started in the prototype lab , I informed the boss about the bad bearings in one of the mills . He brought me over a pair of ear plugs .


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## sdelivery

Hahaha I know that story is true!


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## benmychree

The old saying is "Its a poor workman who blames his tools".


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## mmcmdl

benmychree said:


> The old saying is "Its a poor workman who blames his tools".



Truer words were never spoken . Not to get off the subject , but I find many of the threads on our site about accuracy of machines to be quite humorous . I just keep my thoughts to myself and think " if they only knew " .


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## benmychree

mmcmdl said:


> Truer words were never spoken . Not to get off the subject , but I find many of the threads on our site about accuracy of machines to be quite humorous . I just keep my thoughts to myself and think " if they only knew " .


As do I ---- They have not experienced the real world.


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## Janderso

We had an old timer mechanic working for us until he retired. We car pooled for about ten years. On his way in in the morning he would work his hands to get them moving with the arthritis.
He never bought sets of tools, only had what he needed. His tool box was an old 60’s Snap On. He told his wife, I’ll never need another.
He turned in more hours than any other mechanic.
He would sit on his stool, have a cup of coffee and a cigarette, plan every move in advance, only remove or access the bare minimum to save time.
He would have that engine out in 45 minutes.
He would pull an engine, replace a short block and have it back in by the end of the day without breaking a sweat.
Let’s hear it for the old master mechanics/machinists.
Evy lost his old, small home and shop in the fire.
I check on him from time to time. Evy and Karen bought a new home in Wheatland Ca.
I asked how he made out with the insurance? He says, titts.


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## projectnut

Janderso said:


> We had an old timer mechanic working for us until he retired. We car pooled for about ten years. On his way in in the morning he would work his hands to get them moving with the arthritis.
> He never bought sets of tools, only had what he needed. His tool box was an old 60’s Snap On. He told his wife, I’ll never need another.
> He turned in more hours than any other mechanic.
> He would sit on his stool, have a cup of coffee and a cigarette, plan every move in advance, only remove or access the bare minimum to save time.
> He would have that engine out in 45 minutes.
> *He would pull an engine, replace a short block and have it back in by the end of the day without breaking a sweat.*
> Let’s hear it for the old master mechanics/machinists.
> Evy lost his old, small home and shop in the fire.
> I check on him from time to time. Evy and Karen bought a new home in Wheatland Ca.
> I asked how he made out with the insurance? He says, titts.



Been there, done that, but under a whole different set of circumstances.  Before finding an engineering job at a local manufacturing company I did a short stint as a mechanic/team leader at a local Oldsmobile garage.  I already had my ASE Master Technician certification from the time I owned my own business so it wasn't much of a stretch to work for a dealership.  

Remember back in the early 1980's GM's infamous attempt at putting a faux diesel engine into their passenger cars?  Well they didn't last long and started falling like flies about a year after their introduction.  At first GM wanted the engines rebuilt.  It took close to 3 hours to remove one, another 20 hours to rebuild it from the ground up, and again another 3 hours to install it and get it running.  In total the factory was paying 26 hours for the job.

As things got worse they decided it would be less expensive to install a short block rather than do a complete rebuild.  The factory time to replace a short block was just over 7 hours.  This was the direct result of a class action suit brought by retail customers.  A federal judge ruled that the company couldn't charge different labor rates for retail customers and company paid warranty work.  Up until that time GM would pay 60% of the retail rate, but the same number of hours to get the job done.  After the judgement they paid the same labor rate, but only 70% of the time.  So essentially they paid 7 hours labor for a 10 hour job.  I was replacing short blocks at about one per day.  At one time I had 7 of those monsters either removed from the vehicle waiting for parts, or in one or another stage of assembly or disassembly.  The job could be done in 9 hours if you worked diligently, and didn't take time to chew your gum or drink a cup of coffee.  

The best part is you only lost a couple hours pay on each job.  You know what they say.  "Take a small loss on each sale (in this case each job) and make it up in volume."  Fortunately rather than having to lose a little on each job for the foreseeable future I was asked if I was interested in a job in the machine design department of a local manufacturing company.  Needless to say I took the job and stayed there over 20 years until I was offered a buyout.


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## Mtnmac

mmcmdl said:


> Truer words were never spoken . Not to get off the subject , but I find many of the threads on our site about accuracy of machines to be quite humorous . I just keep my thoughts to myself and think " if they only knew " .


That’s what I used to tell the guys when I was the manager...  “ It’s a poor craftsman who blames his tools.  If you were any good, you could build the space shuttle with a drill press and files”


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## House of Taint

I bought a used '63 J head shipped through Fastenal for less than most machines would just ship for. Ended up rebuilding most of the head (it was beat to hell) and tilt gears for about $1200 and a winter. I'm still ahead, it runs (almost) perfectly, has about .0003" runout, holds my .001"-.002" tolerances well enough, and I learned a lot about the machine. It IS a hobby machine, though, not a shop production.


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## Janderso

projectnut said:


> In total the factory was paying 26 hours for the job


Hasn't changed 4 decades later.
I'm glad to be getting out of this business in a year or two.


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## projectnut

benmychree said:


> The old saying is "Its a poor workman who blames his tools".



I can't believe I missed this post, but count me in as another who totally agrees.  My FIL was a perfect example.  He was a mechanical engineer who's father and FIL were were both machinists.  He learned not only the engineering skills, also those of a machinist.  He put himself through school working as a machinist in a local manufacturing company.  He loved machining, but like many other professions it didn't pay as well as it should.

With the acquired skills he got into furniture restoration as a hobby.  He also made some beautiful pieces from scratch.  I always was in awe of his skills and one day (I was about 25 years old at the time) asked to see his shop.  Through my eyes it was the worst, most worn out god awful collection of junk I'd ever seen.  He was using an old worn out metal  lathe to turn chair and table legs, an 8" Montgomery Ward table saw with a 12" square table his wife won at a church raffle,  and planes and screw drivers that looked like they'd been pulled out of the trash bin.  His work however was flawless.  You couldn't tell the reconstructed parts of a piece of furniture from the originals.  His new pieces looked like they'd come straight from a high end manufacturer.

One year my wife and I snuck down to his shop and did an inventory of his old and worn out tools.  The next Christmas the family presented him some with new high end cabinet makers planes, a set of screw drivers, a new jointer, and various other wood working tools.  We did see or hear him using the jointer from time to time, and often saw the magnificent results of a restoration, but never really paid attention to the process of how it came to be.

Many years later when he passed away we had to clean out the house and get it ready to sell.  When we went down to the shop we found almost all  the planes, screw drivers, and other tools still unopened in their original packages.  He was comfortable using his old and worn tools and saw no need to use anything newer or fancier to improve the quality of his work.

As a side note I do still have the lathe.  I've mentioned it in previous posts.  It's a circa 1916 Seneca Falls Star #20 that was used for over 40 years by his father in law in a prototype shop.  It was given to his FIL as a retirement present.  I've had it now for over 20 years.  I cleaned it up, made a new stand, made a few new parts for it, and put it back to work.  It was my only lathe up to about 5 years ago.  At that time I decided I needed something a bit larger so I purchased a Sheldon.  They both get used on a regular basis.


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## markba633csi

Here's the deal:  Learn as much as you can about how the machines get worn out.  Expect to find this type of wear when you go looking.  Look at some really worn machines- they should be easy to find.
Now you will be better equipped to shop for a good machine.
-Mark


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## Jim F

ArmyDoc said:


> Well rats.  I thought you might actually know of some mechanism or organization that offered that sort of service.
> But, not knowing any professional machinists, and this not being much of an industrial town, I guess I'll just have to do the best I can, and hope for the best.  Alternatively, I guess I could just buy a lesser machine new... hard to say which is the better bet.  Kind of the point of this thread, don't you think?


You are 3 hrs away from Kieth Rucker............


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## ArmyDoc

Jim F said:


> You are 3 hrs away from Kieth Rucker............


Yes!  I recently found that out.  Not exactly local, but since most (all) of the machines I've found are closer to him than they are to me, I'll see if he's willing when the time come.  Getting the shop made is the first priority... Unfortunately that won't be done until April.


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