# seized spindle bearings



## savarin (Dec 8, 2018)

Not happy Jan. (any Aussies here will get that)
Almost finished milling the cross slide extension when the lathe wouldnt start again. 
The spindle bearings appear to have seized, the head stock was hot. 
I let it cool down and when I manually rotated the chuck it was stiff and I could feel a roughness in the bearing so I'm assuming its stuffed. 
Its only around 6 years old but I must admit I have hammered it a bit. 
Now the main question -  
How difficult is it replacing the bearings? 
Any hints or tips available? (other than the rebuilding a 9x20 manual)


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## Downunder Bob (Dec 8, 2018)

Not good news Charles. and of course not happy Jan. Do you have an owners manual, or any drawings of the insides I'm guessing you will have to take the top off and see what the go is. did it make any noises leading up to the event.  I will happily send you copies of my manual, but I suspect there are too many differences. But i'm sure there are others her with generic 9x20 as you call it.

Good luck.


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## Moper361 (Dec 8, 2018)

Struth cobber sounds like the bearings might be cactus .
Can you get the lid off to have a sticky beak on the inside and see what's going on in the cog box .
In all fairness I've not had one apart but I don't think there would be a great deal to changing them .
Caution  would be needed when fitting new bearings onto shaft or into housing a induction heater maybe required if they are a tight fit on shaft and be vigilant with the preload setting depending on type of bearing used and periodically check it after running a few times .
Do you have a diagram on break down of unit
If your wondering yes I am Australian to but not lived there for years lol


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## TomS (Dec 8, 2018)

The attached write up on changing spindle bearings may be helpful.


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## middle.road (Dec 8, 2018)

Freeze the shaft and heat the bearings?
Is this a gear head or a plain head? Post a pic please, I've not had my coffee yet and am not up to searching.
And now on a serious note, I have my cuppa, and am going to go read TomS' attachment. (Anyone seen my reading glasses?)


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## savarin (Dec 8, 2018)

thanks for the pdf, very informative


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## HBilly1022 (Dec 8, 2018)

That sucks! You've done a lot of high quality work on that lathe. Hope you get it back in working order real soon. 

TomS, i read the pdf and found it very interesting and informative. Very nice find and offer of assistance.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 8, 2018)

This is as complicated as it gets. 



 . His touch on bearing clearance is worth watching . Mine was much easier. On my Taiwanese generic 1224 , when I changed the belt and bearing seals, I did the spindle bearings for no other reason than I was there. Pulling the spindle was fairly easy, getting the rest of the stuff out of the way was a little more difficult.. If your bearings are cup and cone ,  Timken style, like mine, it's same as doing the bearings on a trailer.  When they made these lathes, they made the fits on the loose side, easier to build, making repair also easy.  I used the freezer and a heat lamp, but I likely could got away without.


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## P. Waller (Dec 8, 2018)

Does this machine have a spindle brake?


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## savarin (Dec 8, 2018)

no, this is a very basic lathe.
The pdf from TomS is spot on with pics and information that I would not have considered.


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## hman (Dec 8, 2018)

Once you have the old bearings out, be sure to check that the oilers atop the headstock really do connect to the bearing area.  I've seen reports about some 9x20s where the oilers simply dead-ended, and oil never got to the bearings.  Best of luck with your repairs!


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## savarin (Dec 8, 2018)

Hmm, no oilers on this machine.
That was going to be my next question once I had the spindle out and had a good look whether grease or oiler points would be worth it.


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## Moper361 (Dec 8, 2018)

savarin said:


> Hmm, no oilers on this machine.
> That was going to be my next question once I had the spindle out and had a good look whether grease or oiler points would be worth it.


I know mine is same no such oil feed lines as per what I watched in Downwinds video .but going buy the video posted it is quite informative for future reference .


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 8, 2018)

If remember right, those bearings were on what I call a K taper. The bearing clearances are reduced by tightening the wedge action of the taper. They are common in industry. Unless we get a semi professional lathe, we are not going to see them.  Those bearing cost more than our lathes. Watch  his touch on setting the bearings.

I put in a bid on a Standard Modern that had been run out of oil. I'm kind of glad I came in third, close but no $2000 bearing bill over the bid price.


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## Moper361 (Dec 8, 2018)

Downwindtracker2 said:


> If remember right, those bearings were on what I call a K taper. The bearing clearances are reduced by tightening the wedge action of the taper. They are common in industry. Unless we get a semi professional lathe, we are not going to see them.  Those bearing cost more than our lathes. Watch  his touch on setting the bearings.
> 
> I put in a bid on a Standard Modern that had been run out of oil. I'm kind of glad I came in third, close but no $2000 bearing bill over the bid price.


Yes that style of tapper to set preload is quite coo on in mining on conveyor Plummer blocks we used to set up the same by pulling the tapper into inner race making it expand for preload .

Quite possibly you were on a win not getting the lathe that had been run dry that could be a bit pricey to repair


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 8, 2018)

Still, it was a Standard Modern with all the accessories.


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## Bi11Hudson (Dec 8, 2018)

I don't know if my G-1550 (Grizzly) is exactly the same as your's. But, as a 9X19 Taiwanese should be close. 

I have had the spindle out several times. While I was fitting stuff, not for failure. On the outboard left side, there is a locknut, with locking grub screw. A spanner was included in the factory tool kit just for this. With that nut off, removing the pulley and miscellaneous shim pieces should be a piece of cake. 

Using a scrap of 2X4, hammer the spindle out the chuck end. On mine, it just slid out. With damaged bearings, it may need a little force. 

They are tapered roller bearings, similar to trailer wheels. Just smaller... ... If you replace the rollers, you should replace both races. In my book, anyway. Removal of the races you will be on your own. Replacing the spindle, I used the same locking proceedure as wheel bearings. Snub it up and then back off one notch of the lock nut. Time would be on the order of 1 Hr plus parts.

Bill Hudson​


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## middle.road (Dec 8, 2018)

Downwindtracker2 said:


> Still, it was a Standard Modern with all the accessories.


Yeah, most definitely. But, how long was it operated 'dry', probably until it seized & stopped.
Like that auction that I posted back in January, they look like one heck of a quality lathe. I'd take one.
Those (10) went for 2k - 4k in rough condition.


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## john.k (Dec 9, 2018)

if you freeze the spindle,you will find droplets of water under the bearings and in the radius space next time you try to pull the bearings.....Freezing works ok on motorbike bearings,but the motors get hot enough to boil off the water.....lathes dont.


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## hman (Dec 9, 2018)

savarin said:


> Hmm, no oilers on this machine.
> That was going to be my next question once I had the spindle out and had a good look whether grease or oiler points would be worth it.


Just took a photo of mine.  Note the ball oilers on the top surface of the headstock.  I know that at least one of them works, because I get a drool of oil below the spindle for a few days after oiling.  But as we'd discussed (offline), your 9x20 differs from my G4000 ... among other things, the location of the handwheel on the carriage. Hope you can get the headstock lube issue worked out.  

PS - If you need Grizzly or GITS ball oilers, let me know!


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## C-Bag (Dec 9, 2018)

savarin said:


> Hmm, no oilers on this machine.
> That was going to be my next question once I had the spindle out and had a good look whether grease or oiler points would be worth it.


I'm pretty sure mine is the same and there are no oilers/grease points. On mine it's easy to take off the cover that has the spindle gearing etc on it off the headstock and you can see the bearings. There's no way to retain the grease or to drill a gallery to install a zirk to grease it with. With the right grease I don't think it's necessary. It would seem the new headstock for the Grizzly 9x19 has oilers so maybe they updated?


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## savarin (Dec 9, 2018)

The pulley came of easy but the gear wheel was a bit of a struggle.


The first shock was when the shield popped off with a hell of a bang


The rest went ok with no challenges.
As you can see at the chuck end of the spindle all the grease had dried out and the rollers are pitted with wear marks in both races.


Now I have to get the inner race off the chuck end of the spindle, I dont see two screwdrivers being able to accomplish this. Of course if I had a lathe I could turn up a puller bracket.
Looking at the headstock I can see where I could easily drill and install grease nipples to pack into the gap between each bearing and its inner shield.
It looks as if this is what was designed in but never got done.


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## HBilly1022 (Dec 9, 2018)

Great progress and it looks like nothing major got hurt. As long as you can find the necessary bearings and races, you should be back in business soon.

For the last race, I learned a trick, from the internet of course, that might work for you. If you have a welder you could run a small bead around the inside of the race and when it cools the race will shrink and just fall out. I did this on my skidsteer and it worked great. Just be very careful not to run the welder too hot and melt through the race.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 9, 2018)

On well designed machines there are a couple of notches in the housing to hammer out the cups. If they aren't there, it's good karma to grind some. As I said, mine were on the loose side.


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## savarin (Dec 9, 2018)

Everything is out of the headstock, the cups popped out with a drift with no problems.
The firm one is the roller cage and cup on the spindle, that as tight as #######.
Just thinking out loud here, If the new bearings are installed without the internal tin shields I can remove the gear/speed chart on the front when required and pack more grease into both bearings with my fingers. Thats easier and quicker than drilling and fitting grease nipples.


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## C-Bag (Dec 9, 2018)

Mine doesn't have the grease shields, I can see exactly if and how much grease is in there. It's pretty easy to squish some more grease in there. Last time I was in there that's what I did. YMMV.


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## Cadillac (Dec 9, 2018)

I would think a properly packed bearing with the proper grease and preload correctly should outlast the operator. You have a good chance of contaminating the bearing by squishing some grease around the washers.


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## rwm (Dec 9, 2018)

What's the plan to remove the bearing form the spindle? Stand the spindle in dry ice and heat the bearing with a torch?

Anonymous!


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 9, 2018)

This is nerve racking, when I ran into a stuck inner race , I would use a cut wheel on a mini=grinder and cut a slot. Of course not cutting into the shaft. With a block of wood on the back side to soften, and a cold chisel to point load, I'll give it a swat. Bearing metal is brittle  and will 9 times out of 10 it will crack at the cut. Since it is brittle, it can shatter, wear safety glasses or shield. You may want to do two 180 degree cuts, but then it gets twice as nerve racking


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## Cadillac (Dec 9, 2018)

The bearing is garbage. I would start with supporting the cage and trying pressing the spindle out. See what happens. Cage pops than you deal with the inner race and press off. Or cut off what have you. Delicately either way


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## pdentrem (Dec 9, 2018)

If it was my machine, I would be looking at adding grease fittings some how. Now is the time to do so.


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## savarin (Dec 10, 2018)

It was not as difficult as I thought it would be.
I snipped the cage and removed it then supported it on end in the vise with aluminium jaws, tapped with a drift around the shield which moved the cone sufficiently to engage the old two screwdrivers trick.
This slid it off the first landing and to get it off the second landing I found a length of ag pipe that just let the spindle nose pass through but not the metal shield, stuck some rags in the bottom of the pipe so the end wouldnt get damaged when it fell through and whaled on the end with a chunk of wood and a hammer.


Now comes the most difficult part, removing sufficient material from the left hand bearing seat so the bearing will slide with a tight but hand pressure fit so the end float can be adjusted. I think this was the problem with the original set up, they were installed together way too tight and that eventually wore them out.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 10, 2018)

Since you don't have lathe to spin it, just pretend you are a shoe shine boy with emery cloth strip. Just work your way around it. Filing takes more skill to stay round.


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## savarin (Dec 10, 2018)

Got the bearings today, SKF,
Not a chance of it sliding on so I used these tools to reduce the diameter.


Shoe shining with the belt then an ultra fine file to remove those scratches.
Only took a couple of attempts till the bearing slid on with tight hand pressure.


So quick and simple I think I will do the chuck end tomorow as well.


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## Moper361 (Dec 10, 2018)

Looking good well on the way to repair and turning again


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## TomS (Dec 10, 2018)

savarin said:


> Got the bearings today, SKF,
> Not a chance of it sliding on so I used these tools to reduce the diameter.
> View attachment 281979
> 
> ...



The chuck end bearing carries most of the radial load.  You do not want that bearing to be loose, you want it to be a interference/press fit.  If it's loose it will tend to fret (become more loose) over time which will affect surface finish.  The repair is a replacement spindle.  Food for thought.


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## savarin (Dec 10, 2018)

and a very good thought it is, thankyou


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## middle.road (Dec 10, 2018)

What about using some Loc-Tite (or DU eq.) bearing retaining compound?


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 10, 2018)

At the float end was were he was having difficulties,. There is no need to glue up anything. I slid the chuck end cone on  by leaving the spindle in the freezer for a while and putting the cone under a heat lamp. Remember The Seal. You do want a bit of an interference fit.  At work , I used a induction heater and wouldn't bother with the freezing the shaft . Though I've never did this way, it might be the best way, heat the bearing in pan of oil. Rubber gloves would be needed.

Once together , I checked the turning by hand and the bearing clearance , I'll say this in Australian, a 2 meter long 4x2 timber to pry up and a fine  dial indicator. Back to imperial, I used a 1/10th dial indicator. I got 1/10th, which is what it was before .When turning by hand ,you don't want to feel the individual rollers. After running for a while, come back and check, you may have to check your clearance as things seat.

Good luck. Ray


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## savarin (Dec 12, 2018)

I followed the idea from the pdf above of reducing the diameter of the old bearing outer ring to use as a pusher.


I found by angling the wooden batton I could get the ring to spin fast but sand off material as well.
It took only 5 mins to get to where it was a free fit into the headstock.


I'm glad it didn't take long because as I got everything together I suddenly found a chunk of aluminium casting that had been turned down for a spacer ages ago (never throw anything away) that fit perfectly and made the job easy.


by slipping the end of the all thread into the tail stock it kept it straight and the new parts went in easily but a tight fit.
I also fitted the grease shields back in place.
The mega down side later  was I distorted the roller cage getting that part onto the spindle and all the rollers fell out.
Luckily they fell onto the cloth and I never lost any.
I learnt two things here -
1. use a proper fitting tube drift to install the cone so as not to damage the cage.
2. the rollers are tapered so only fit in one way. Now thinking about it of course they have to be tapered and it says "taper roller bearing" but it had never crossed my mind before.
It took a bit of fiddling to get the pre load correct but it runs very smoothly now and 20 mins flat out only got to pleasantly hot, ie can be held in the hand. 40 mins at low speed barely raised the temp.
It is way smoother than when new but I havnt used it to do anything yet.
I decided to drill for grease nipples so the bearings wouldnt dry out and maybe last more than 6 years this time.


I know its under the speed plate but it wont be a weekly job.
I couldnt place them on the top as the inside of the casting doesnt reach the bearing housing.
So I wont have an excuse not to do it I will replace the screws with knurled ones.


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## C-Bag (Dec 12, 2018)

Good job! So what kind of grease did you go with?


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## Moper361 (Dec 12, 2018)

savarin said:


> I followed the idea from the pdf above of reducing the diameter of the old bearing outer ring to use as a pusher.
> View attachment 282132
> 
> I found by angling the wooden batton I could get the ring to spin fast but sand off material as well.
> ...


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## Moper361 (Dec 12, 2018)

Nice job on the repair ,A little trick we used to do when using old bearing cones as pushers we just used to split them with a grinder then they can be pulled out easily from the bore


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## hman (Dec 12, 2018)

That's a fantastic place to put the grease nipples!  If I ever have to service the bearings on my 9x20, I'll do the same.  Might have some surprises, though.  I think I read somewhere that some of these lathes use angular contact ball bearings, rather than tapered rollers.  

Thanks also for your tips and techniques, such as centering the all thread in the tailstock!


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## ch2co (Dec 12, 2018)

Way to go Charles !  
Now get back to your binoculars.  

The grumpy old coot


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## rwm (Dec 12, 2018)

Very nice! You make a complex job look easy!
Robert


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## savarin (Dec 12, 2018)

Thanks everybody.
The grease is an SKF product advised by the agent.


It has a very nice smooth feel


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## savarin (Dec 13, 2018)

Ray, a 2 meter lever is a hell of a lot of leverage/poundage
I used a 1 meter steel box section and got 3 thou " deflection and that was a lot of weight on the lever.


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## Downwindtracker2 (Dec 13, 2018)

Wood is soft, that's why I suggested a 2x4. It will crush and shouldn't harm anything. I think I might even have used pine, pine lumber is common around here. I'm not talking about what you would call  Oregon Pine , Douglas Fir. That's harder and stronger. There is a difference between bearing clearance and machine flex. You need bearing clearance otherwise they don't turn, but you need enough that when things get warm, they still turn.

Yeah, after being retired for 4 years, that weight has increased. We have friends in Cains (sp) How's the wet.


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## savarin (Dec 13, 2018)

awaiting the storm, very very hot humid and muggy with thunder in the background.
Weve had a bit of rain but not the wet yet.
Just put up the large snowman and lights, a snowman at these temps?
Cooling down with psychology does nae work.


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## Tozguy (Dec 13, 2018)

savarin said:


> I know its under the speed plate but it wont be a weekly job.



Would a short extension to bring the nipple out through the speed plate be a possibility?
If it were me, having to remove the plate to get at the grease fittings would be a deterant.

On second thought, using an elbow and running an extension up through to the top would be cleaner.


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## savarin (Dec 14, 2018)

It works, first job, 4 small screws for the front thread plate and one longer one with a locking nut to go on the new cross slide dial when I get that finished.


I've been so used to knurling stainless that I used a bit too much pressure on these so they are not as clean as they should be.
The threads are M4x0.7


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## middle.road (Dec 14, 2018)

savarin said:


> It works, first job, 4 small screws for the front thread plate and one longer one with a locking nut to go on the new cross slide dial when I get that finished.
> 
> I've been so used to knurling stainless that I used a bit too much pressure on these so they are not as clean as they should be.
> The threads are M4x0.7


Kiss them lightly with a fine file or 220/320 taped to a block and they'll look good.
On those brass tubes I was reworking we didn't know the grade/type. One piece the pressure would be fine next piece I'd end up with your results.


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## L158 (Jul 21, 2020)

Thanks for the PDF TomS and for every ones input. I am replacing the headstock bearings on my L158 (Australian version of the G4000) 9x20 and found the information on this thread very useful.


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