# Milling machine questions.



## thequintessentialman (May 19, 2019)

Would have expected this to have been beat to death in here but I'm apparently using incorrect search tags.  In fact, I thought I had asked this question myself a while back but not finding it in my history.  

I'm looking for suggestions for reputable, quality, entry level mills but something that hopefully I won't outgrow too quickly.  Would like to keep it around $2k if that is even realistic.  Not sure what I want to build yet but usually when I get a new tool, a new task soon presents itself.  I started down this road a year or so ago but some stuff came up, figure now I better get back into it before something else comes up again.  If someone can point me to some previous discussions that would be great.


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## ttabbal (May 19, 2019)

New, you can get some benchtop mini mills for about that. 

Used knee mills like the Bridgeports come up close to that here and there. You have to wait and watch for them. And you have to be able to jump or someone else will. 

Occasionally, bigger industrial machines are available. They will usually cost more though, and moving and powering them can be tricky. 

For most things a home shop guy would want to do, it's hard to go wrong with the Bridgeport style and size. Without knowing what you want to work on, it's tough to suggest a machine size, but that's what I would suggest. They are big enough to handle most any hobbyist jobs but not so huge that powering them up is a huge pain.


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## Technical Ted (May 19, 2019)

One important thing to remember is that the tooling and tool and work piece holding devices can easily cost much more than the bare machine. You can't do anything without tooling and devices to hold both your tool cutters and work pieces regardless of what machine you buy. 

If 2K is your top budget then I would suggest looking for something used that comes with some tooling. A vise, collets, drill chucks will get you started and be a bare minimum. Then start making some of the things you need and save to buy more down the road. 

Ted


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## BGHansen (May 19, 2019)

I use the search engine www.searchtempest.com.  It covers Craig's List, eBay and Amazon in one search.  Type in your zip code, distance you want to drive, price range and search key and voila.  Couple of hits around your price in your area on CL are below.

Bruce

U.S. Burke knee mill for $2000.  Has a vise, not anything else I see but it'd be a great mill for the price.  Much, much better than a mini or Rong Fu.  It's outside of Austin.
https://austin.craigslist.org/tls/d/austin-machine-tools-vertical-mill-lathe/6880803618.html 

Exacto vertical mill for $2150 in Tulsa.  Nice looking mill with vise and some tooling.
https://tulsa.craigslist.org/tls/d/tulsa-bridgeport-style-exacto-milling/6884243791.html


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## BGHansen (May 19, 2019)

Technical Ted said:


> One important thing to remember is that the tooling and tool and work piece holding devices can easily cost much more than the bare machine. You can't do anything without tooling and devices to hold both your tool cutters and work pieces regardless of what machine you buy.
> 
> If 2K is your top budget then I would suggest looking for something used that comes with some tooling. A vise, collets, drill chucks will get you started and be a bare minimum. Then start making some of the things you need and save to buy more down the road.
> 
> Ted


To Ted's point, I bought a Jet JVM-830 mill for $1200.  Then added a 4" vise, collets, 4-axis DRO, parallels, center/edge finders, drill chucks, clamping kit, etc. for close to what the mill cost.

Bought a BP for $4K that came with a 6" Kurt vise and a clamping kit.  I've added an ER32 collet chuck, Z-axis DRO (had X and Y), power feed on the Z, drill chucks, R-8 collets, QuillMaster, right angle head (last two are esoteric) for an additional ~$1000.

Bruce


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## RJSakowski (May 19, 2019)

I have generally been happy with Grizzly machines.  They aren't perfect but the quality is reasonable for the price. Over the years, I have bought  G4000 and G0602 lathes, a G0755 mill, two 3 axis DRO's, and a 10" hybrid table saw, along with a pair of 4" machinist's vises and numerous tooling items.  The G0755 is above your stated budget but is kind of in between a bench top and a knee mill.  It has a square column and a 2 hp motor as well as power feed on the x axis and power travel on the column.

Used mills of the Bridgeport type are more machine but you are buying a pig in a poke unless you have the ability to do a critical pre-purchase evaluation.  Most will come from industrial environments and likely have thousands of hours of use .and may have some serious wear issues.  These machines can be brought back to nearly new condition but it is not a job for a novice machinist.

If your budget is limited, you should be aware that the cost of tooling can easily exceed the cost of the machine.  With careful shopping, you can get enought tooling to get you started and slowly build your inventory.


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## thequintessentialman (May 19, 2019)

I have  a decent vise from my drill press, too I'm about to get a cross vise for it just to make lining things up easier.  Regarding the cost, I just need a price point to aim for (start with?  From what I can tell, these things are like cars, start adding features and capability, and the price sky rockets.)  I don't plan on anything more than hobby stuff and maybe occasionally make a bracket for work if the opportunity presents itself.  

... there are a few tasks in the past that I would like to readdress.  I wanted a threaded adapter to allow a handle to be screwed into a shovel head to to attach a collapsible handle.  Also wanted a twist-lock device to break down a marching flag pole into two pieces for transport and storage.  The wife has had similar ideas for stuff on craft projects over the years that was just beyond my ability to make with hand tools.  I did machine a part (arrived partially completed) using jigs, drill press, carpenters router, bench vise, and mill bit.  The aluminum block was approx 6x4x2.  Hopefully this gives some ideas on my goals.


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## MikeInOr (May 19, 2019)

You aren't going to get much for $2K on a new mill.  Prices vary with region but in my area it takes about $2500 to score a decent deal on a good used mill... you have to search CL often and jump immediately when something good comes up.  In my area larger mills will often be cheaper than Bridgeport size mills because businesses don't want older manual mills and most hobbiests can't move larger mills and don't have space to set one up.

Tooling IS expensive... but you don't have to buy everything at once.  A vise, a hold down set  and some end mills will get you started.  Then you buy specific cutters for specific projects and your capabilitis expand.  You will have to spend a couple hundred for a VFD and wiring supplies to run a 3 phase mill on your single phase household current.  All together I would plan for about $3000 to get up and cutting with a used mill.

It sounds like you finished a 1911 frame?  It's OK, I don't think anyone around here is going to give you a hard time for wanting to get into gunsmithing.


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## martik777 (May 20, 2019)

thequintessentialman said:


> I have  a decent vise from my drill press, too I'm about to get a cross vise for it just to make lining things up easier.  Regarding the cost, I just need a price point to aim for (start with?  From what I can tell, these things are like cars, start adding features and capability, and the price sky rockets.)  I don't plan on anything more than hobby stuff and maybe occasionally make a bracket for work if the opportunity presents itself.
> 
> ... there are a few tasks in the past that I would like to readdress.  I wanted a threaded adapter to allow a handle to be screwed into a shovel head to to attach a collapsible handle.  Also wanted a twist-lock device to break down a marching flag pole into two pieces for transport and storage.  The wife has had similar ideas for stuff on craft projects over the years that was just beyond my ability to make with hand tools.  I did machine a part (arrived partially completed) using jigs, drill press, carpenters router, bench vise, and mill bit.  The aluminum block was approx 6x4x2.  Hopefully this gives some ideas on my goals.




For what you plan to do the Harbor freight mill drill would be suitable. It's 1200, get it for 960 with a 20% coupon.
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-horsepower-heavy-duty-milling-drilling-machine-33686.html

Similar machine at Grizzly is almost double the price.

or watch CL for a used Rong-fu (taiwan) RF30 or 31. I got one with power feed for $500


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## richl (May 20, 2019)

No disrespect to those with smaller machines, but with a mill weight, heft, bulk are king. The more mass the better. You can work around and with some slop, unless you are building for NASA. Big orphan machines that are not bridgeport, "frankeinports" are out there and are cheaper. The sought after 3/4 mills go for higher dollars on ebay and craigslist so be open to something new and different.  If you have the space and dont mind sorting out 3phase bigger industrial machines are often affordable.

Good luck


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## RobertHaas (May 20, 2019)

Instrumentation, and tooling will exceed the value of almost all bare machines. 

If you are going to use it as a glorified drill press then forget what I am about to say. 

My first mill was a steal. I then spent over 10 grand over the first year alone just on tooling, work holding and instrumentation.

A quality surface plate, height gauge and and set of gauge blocks costs half as much as what I spent on the mill itself. Calipers, dial indicators, test instruments. tramming tools, sine plates, holders, and lighting add up so fast it is terrifying. 

Then it comes to the tooling itself. End mills, and simple fly cutters lead to ball mills and then your first index-able face mills. This of course will be followed by boring bars and larger face mills. 

Honestly the concept of an affordable mill is something to laugh about.


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## Splat (May 20, 2019)

Fwiw, from G0704 owners' accounts it's a good machine for the price. Besides here there are quite a few places, like Yahoo groups, with forums for it or Grizzly machines. Mill size depends how big your intended workpieces will be. With machines you'll be advised to get the biggest you can afford and fit in the shop.


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## vocatexas (May 21, 2019)

I was at an auction this weekend and saw a fairly decent Bridgeport go for $1300. It even came with a fair amount of tooling. If I had the spare cash I'd have bid on it myself. You're up in the Metromess, so don't get in a big hurry. I see nice vertical and horizontal mills come up on Craigslist pretty often in your area.


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## ThinWoodsman (May 21, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> Used mills of the Bridgeport type are more machine but you are buying a pig in a poke unless you have the ability to do a critical pre-purchase evaluation. Most will come from industrial environments and likely have thousands of hours of use and may have some serious wear issues. These machines can be brought back to nearly new condition but it is not a job for a novice machinist.



This was probably the case for a decade or so after the big CNC switch. What I've been seeing now are machines from small shops that are closing down. Some are the same worn-out production machines, of course, but many of them are single-owner and generally low-usage. The one I picked up, oddly, was owned originally by a jeweler. 

So while it is important to be able to evaluate a machine, the odds are slightly more in the purchaser's favor than ten or so years ago when every piece of used machinery was from a production line or, worse, a high school shop.


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## 682bear (May 21, 2019)

BGHansen said:


> To Ted's point, I bought a Jet JVM-830 mill for $1200.  Then added a 4" vise, collets, 4-axis DRO, parallels, center/edge finders, drill chucks, clamping kit, etc. for close to what the mill cost.
> 
> Bought a BP for $4K that came with a 6" Kurt vise and a clamping kit.  I've added an ER32 collet chuck, Z-axis DRO (had X and Y), power feed on the Z, drill chucks, R-8 collets, QuillMaster, right angle head (last two are esoteric) for an additional ~$1000.
> 
> Bruce



Sorry for the quick hijack... Bruce, do you have the QRA for your quillmaster?

-Bear


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## RJSakowski (May 21, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> This was probably the case for a decade or so after the big CNC switch. What I've been seeing now are machines from small shops that are closing down. Some are the same worn-out production machines, of course, but many of them are single-owner and generally low-usage. The one I picked up, oddly, was owned originally by a jeweler.
> 
> So while it is important to be able to evaluate a machine, the odds are slightly more in the purchaser's favor than ten or so years ago when every piece of used machinery was from a production line or, worse, a high school shop.


I'm sure that there are used Bridgeports out there with little wear.  The problem is one of evaluating a machine from a 100 miles away based on a sellers word and a few poor photographs.  Add to that, a newbie with little experience as to what can be problematic with a used machine and the results can be disappointing.  For a newbie, I would suggest taking an experienced freind along and evaluating a machine before committing to buying. Unless, of course, the machine is so cheap that it would be impossible to lose on the deal.

In this neck of the woods, anyway, used machines are few and far between.  If one does come up on CL, chances are by the time you see the add, it has been snatched up or it isn't worth the bother.  Might be a different story if I lived closer to a manufacturing area.


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## BGHansen (May 21, 2019)

682bear said:


> Sorry for the quick hijack... Bruce, do you have the QRA for your quillmaster?
> 
> -Bear


Hi Bear,

I do.  Here are some related threads when I picked up the QM ($200 shipped), the QRA ($95 shipped) and making a special wrench for the QRA.  I haven't used any of them yet though did run a job the other day with an 1/8" end mill where the QM would have given me more clearance.  I think the collet in my QM is a 3/16", will make an 1/8" for it one of these days (have a lot of 1/8" shank end mills).

If you are after a QRA, just be patient if shopping on eBay.  I had "Quillmaster QRA" as one of my searches for around 6 months after buying the QM.  Sellers can ask whatever they want as looking at them on a search today I still see the same guys asking the same $550 - $650 for a QRA.  Those same units have been on  eBay for over a year.  I snagged mine on a Buy It Now auction for $85 plus shipping.  I put the power to both the QM and QRA and they work fine.

If you're after a QM alone, this eBay auction (333142914685) has a decent looking one with the collet for $183.05 including shipping.  No affiliation with the seller.

Bruce


Quillmaster
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/what-did-you-buy-today.55645/page-64#post-625420 

Quillmaster QRA
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/what-did-you-buy-today.55645/page-72#post-648786 

Making a wrench for the QRA
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/thr...-in-your-shop-today.67833/page-46#post-649385


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## ThinWoodsman (May 21, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> I'm sure that there are used Bridgeports out there with little wear.  The problem is one of evaluating a machine from a 100 miles away based on a sellers word and a few poor photographs.  Add to that, a newbie with little experience as to what can be problematic with a used machine and the results can be disappointing.



Totally agree - I wouldn't even consider buying a used machine without seeing it in person. Didn't even occur to me as a possibility


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## Firstgear (May 23, 2019)

RobertHaas said:


> A quality surface plate, height gauge and and set of gauge blocks costs half as much as what I spent on the mill itself. Calipers, dial indicators, test instruments. tramming tools, sine plates, holders, and lighting add up so fast it is terrifying.
> 
> Then it comes to the tooling itself. End mills, and simple fly cutters lead to ball mills and then your first index-able face mills. This of course will be followed by boring bars and larger face mills.
> 
> Honestly the concept of an affordable mill is something to laugh about.


This is so true!


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## ezduzit (May 26, 2019)

Look for a quality, heavy duty, used machine with comprehensive tooling package. Be prepared to immediately jump on a fair deal when it presents itself. And also be prepared to have a professional rigger deliver it.


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