# Vn Dividing Head Index Assembly



## Reeltor (Mar 28, 2015)

Uglydog (Daryl) and I have been discussing how the indexing pin on the VN dividing head is supposed to work.  He sent me photos of his assembly; showing that my pin assembly is not fully extending and cannot index into any holes on the index plates.
The index assembly is spring loaded, when you want to turn the pin a number of full turns, you pull on the knurled knob to retract the pin and give it a quarter turn to lock it into the retracted position.

I have a burr or damage inside the assembly and need to take it apart for repair.  Any insight on how to accomplish this with the least amount of damage to the assembly would be appreciated.
Here are some photos:
Here you can see the pin partly extended; I think it’s being held up by a burr or damage inside the knob




After some hand work with a file and with the smack of a dead-blow hammer, here is the pin fully extended.  This is the goal, to have the pin and body proud of the knob assembly so that the pin will enter into the holes on the dividing plates.



There is a slot on the inside of the body, I am guessing that this guide pin slides inside the slot. There is something stopping the knob from fully sliding into position.  The outline of this pin is only on this side of the knob.




I don't know if there is a limit to the number of photos per post.  I'll continue in the next post


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## Reeltor (Mar 28, 2015)

Second photo of the outline of the "guide pin"


On the knurled section of the knob there appears to be another pin, evidence of this smaller pin can be seen on both sides of the knob.  I don’t think it can be one-piece because when you look at the top of the knob you see what looks like the end of the pin itself.



Here is the top of the knob,  This may be the pin

So what do you think?  What is the best way to dissemble the index pin assembly in order to clean it up?

Mike


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## 18w (Mar 29, 2015)

Judging from your pics there are possibly 2 pins. I believe one pin retains the knob ( the top one) and the bottom pin engages the slot. Drilling seems to be the only solution as the pins are in blind holes as is the one on my Hardinge. Mine does not have the 1/4 turn locking feature but exhibited the same sort of problem. Luckily mine was just sticking from corrosion and old gunk. Soaking in penetrating oil freed mine up. Are you positive your pin is damaged?

Darrell


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## Reeltor (Mar 29, 2015)

Darrell,

Thank you for the reply.  The pin would only extend a small amount as shown in the first 2 photos.  I soaked in solvent in the ultra sonic cleaner for a while with no noticeable improvement.  I could see a few burrs on the interior top of the slide and was able to get a small file to smooth some to them out.  After seeing the picture of Uglydog's pin and how far it came out of the end; I smacked it with a soft-face hammer; and it moved to the full extended position.  But it is still bound up and needs a whack to retract the pin.  I can only guess that sometime over the last 60 years someone didn't know about the 1/4 turn lock and bashed it with a BFH,  I can see evidence of a prior repair attempt resulting in the break in the cast iron crank handle etc.

I'll throw it in some cleaner and see what happens, it won't hurt.  Maybe I filed enough of the burrs off so that it can work  and now there is just some crud on the cam-lock sticking things up.

Mike


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## 18w (Mar 29, 2015)

Good luck Mike. Wish I had a easy answer. Worst case scenario is you screw up the slot or something but if you get it apart you will be able to measure and see the pieces. You probably know a guy who could make a new one....right?  

Darrell


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## Uglydog (Mar 29, 2015)

I wished I'd have picked up on this thread earlier.
I'd have looked at mine closer for ideas.
Randomly, does your pin appear to be straight?
Grease, burrs, or chips? No, you already worked that through.
I'll try to gaze at mine after work Monday.
Meanwhile, I've not found a Van Norman parts break down. But, here is a Cincy parts breakdown. Similar? 

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Mar 29, 2015)

Uglydog said:


> I wished I'd have picked up on this thread earlier.
> I'd have looked at mine closer for ideas.
> Randomly, does your pin appear to be straight?
> Grease, burrs, or chips? No, you already worked that through.
> ...



Daryl,

Thanks for the Cincy parts list, I wish we'd find a Van Norman Parts and Instruction booklet like this Cincy.
The Pin is straight, I can see some buggered up part of the slot in the assembly body.  I just can't get to it with it assembled.  The only thing I found on the VN are these patents sheets.




The cap on the Cincy seems to be held on by a pin, I think I'll drill out the upper pin on the knurled section and see if the top will come off.  Yea, I can make a new one, but I kinda wanted to keep it as original as possible.

Mike


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## Uglydog (Mar 30, 2015)

Please note the attached pics.
Two pins. I took a pic of both sides of the knurled knob.
I believe one is a stop, the other a taper retaining pin.
I didn't take mine apart. Don't know what yours looks like. But, I'd try sliding out the taper pin.
Daryl


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## Reeltor (Mar 30, 2015)

Daryl,

The knurled section appears to be chrome or nickle plated and so well used that the smaller pin outlines are barley visible.  Being a taper pin makes sense, I can't tell which end is larger.  I'll flip a coin


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## Uglydog (Mar 30, 2015)

On mine one side has the two pins.
The other side has only one.
The side with one appears smaller.
I'd start by tapping the smaller side, read side with only one pin visible. 

Daryl


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## Reeltor (Mar 30, 2015)

Uglydog said:


> On mine one side has the two pins.
> The other side has only one.
> The side with one appears smaller.
> I'd start by tapping the smaller side, read side with only one pin visible.
> ...


  Just the information that I need. 

Thank you,

My DH has the serial number 2-6183,
What is yours?


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## Uglydog (Mar 30, 2015)

2-6038
Likely less hair and more wrinkles.

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Apr 18, 2015)

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this, what turned out to be a very simple fix.  The problem with the index assembly seemed to be 60+ years of abuse.  
The handle assembly is NOT supposed to have a quarter turn and lock with the pin retracted feature. 
I took a file to the knurl where the pin went through the handle to determine which side was the smaller.  Then it was a simple matter of using a hammer and a very small punch to drive the pin out.  Once the pin was out, I found the pin shaft had a bend in it that caused the lock in retracted position with a quarter twist.  Also every internal & matting  surface had burrs that had to be filed and or sanded.  A little ATF for lube and it works as good as new.


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## Uglydog (Apr 19, 2015)

bigearl and toag have very kindly suggested that do the same as you've done here. That is make a solution to difficult. They've gently suggest I find the simple solution that will work as well or perhaps better that all the complexities that I am always tempted to inject.

Congrats!!
Yesterday we got the VN22LU moved into place in my shop. Got a few hours of work to do before she is ready to make swarf. 
However, I anticipate I'll be in touch looking for help on the VN gearbox in a few months.

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Apr 19, 2015)

Uglydog said:


> bigearl and toag have very kindly suggested that do the same as you've done here. That is make a solution to difficult. They've gently suggest I find the simple solution that will work as well or perhaps better that all the complexities that I am always tempted to inject.
> 
> Congrats!!
> Yesterday we got the VN22LU moved into place in my shop. Got a few hours of work to do before she is ready to make swarf.
> ...




I'm going to make a new pin, the existing one is bent on the upper section, between the alignment boss and the top of the handle assembly.

Daryl,  That's great that you have the mill almost ready to go.  I'll look in my notes on the mill.  I seem to remember having a letter from the head maintenance person at VN and the original purchaser of my mill on how to some work / make adjustments on the mill.  I think it had information on some tricks to get it all back together.


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## Uglydog (Apr 26, 2015)

Moved into place is not quite the same as nearly operable.
It'll likely be a month, that's if I can contain the honey-do list...
If you find the letter, that'd be super helpful.

Also, now that you've got the pin apart, look what I found!

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Apr 26, 2015)

Thank you for that patent sheet, it is the one I was missing.  Well, I made a new pin, exactly like the one that was in the assembly.  Turns out that the "original" one that I have is not really original, it was too long between the spring and the end.  The result being that when pinned in place, retracting the pin from the plate would not allow enough clearance between the pin and the sector arms.  

I'll email you the letter, 

reeltor, (Mike)


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## Uglydog (Apr 26, 2015)

I also found a diagram (no dimensions) for Van Norman Sub Head.
No measurements on anything. 
But, I'm kinda wondering what it would take to build a Sub Head from scratch based on the diagram.
If I find enough over confidence, I wonder if anyone would like to collaborate on prints and the build. 
Once a print with dimensions was agreed on, and tolerances established, it wouldn't matter who made which part. Collaborators could mail the parts.

To big of a wild scheme?

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Apr 26, 2015)

I would love to see the diagram.


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## Uglydog (Apr 26, 2015)

Please note the attached pics, I should have included them in the prior post.
The notes indicate that this head will fit a 16, 24, 28, and 38.

Daryl
MN


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## Cal Haines (Apr 27, 2015)

Hi Daryl,

That's a very interesting manual.  Where did you find it?

_Cal_


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## Uglydog (Apr 27, 2015)

Cal,
These are hard copy original documents. I've got similar "Service Bulletins" for many other VN accessories including the hi-speed head, the small horizontal DH, slotter, rotary table and a vise. It's my intent to get decent scans and post them on HM and other unmentionable forums (no charge). I think I can legally do this as they are out of business. Correct? Regardless, it will be a few weeks. 

I also picked up original "Service Bulletins" in the original 2inch B&E embossed binders for my Boye and Emmes lathes. Really excting!
I have an option on a black and white pic of the Van Norman cone line. He wants $100 for the pic.

Do you think it foolish to attempt a build from raw stock? 
Please note I am not suggesting any of this will be easy.

Daryl
MN


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## Cal Haines (Apr 28, 2015)

Daryl,

I'm not an expert on copyright, but it's my understanding that if the document was published before a certain date (IIRC some time in the 80's) AND it isn't marked as copyright, there's no problem.  You can post portions of documents under "fair use" to further discussions, etc.  Where you run into real problems is when you do something the deprives the owner of income from the copyright.  Speaking generally, if there's nobody around to enforce a copyright by suing you, then you don't have too much to worry about.  But again, that's just my understanding.  Take the time to get yourself up to speed on copyright law, etc.

But, I look forward to seeing the docs!

I think that building a right angle attachment would be a very challenging project on many levels.  (I bet you have lots of other projects where you time and money could be better spent.)  The way my luck goes, if I undertook something like that, one would land in my lap when I was about 80% finished with my build...

_Cal_


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## HMF (Jun 6, 2015)

Uglydog said:


> I also found a diagram (no dimensions) for Van Norman Sub Head.
> No measurements on anything.
> But, I'm kinda wondering what it would take to build a Sub Head from scratch based on the diagram.
> If I find enough over confidence, I wonder if anyone would like to collaborate on prints and the build.
> ...



I only ever saw ONE subhead for sale on Ebay, and it went for over a thousand as I recall. I paid $500 or so for my #12, so I thought that would be kinda out of scale.

Nels


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## Uglydog (Jun 6, 2015)

I noticed two were posted on Ebay in the the past several months. 
Each far less than a $1000.
However, neither were particularly complete or clearly identified.
I'm still not necessarily deterred from this project. 
Worst case, I've got several hundred hours into precision scrap.
If all goes according to plan, with DavidH as an inspiration, I'll be casting aluminum this summer.
And machining the internals this winter, with the gentle coaching of many here at HM I'm consistently holding .001 and working on .0005.

Will be fun.
Daryl
MN


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## HMF (Jun 7, 2015)

Cal Haines said:


> Daryl,
> 
> I'm not an expert on copyright, but it's my understanding that if the document was published before a certain date (IIRC some time in the 80's) AND it isn't marked as copyright, there's no problem.  You can post portions of documents under "fair use" to further discussions, etc.  Where you run into real problems is when you do something the deprives the owner of income from the copyright.  Speaking generally, if there's nobody around to enforce a copyright by suing you, then you don't have too much to worry about.  But again, that's just my understanding.  Take the time to get yourself up to speed on copyright law, etc.
> 
> ...



Daryl,

If you scan those docs in, go ahead and post them. 

They are too old to cause a problem. 
Plus, we are using them for educational rather than commercial use.
If anyone from VN complains, which I doubt, I will pull them. 

I can also write VN (still exists but not to produce mills), and see if they have any issues.
I doubt they will.


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## HMF (Jun 7, 2015)

Next time you see this thing on Ebay, let me know and we will try to get it.
If I get it, I will give you dimensions and pics.


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## reh (Aug 31, 2015)

Daryl,

I am working on trying to put a Universal High Speed Head back into service, and could sure use any info you might have.  I want to take the transmission apart to clean all the old goo out, and as I am not an experienced millwright, I am not sure how it is put together.  I surely do not want to break anything.

Ron


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## Uglydog (Aug 31, 2015)

reh,
And I'm just a hack who has asked alot of annoying questions of the many, many good and patient people here and elsewhere, read some books, watched all the Tubalcain and Fenner videos. Then turned some handles until the wife came out to see if I was coming in for dinner.

After searching I finally found the documents. I never did get to a professional scanner like I'd hoped. When my wife gets home tonight I'll ask her to help me scan them for me here and post them.

I picked up a Universal Head for my 22LU. If anyone has other parts they are willing to take some measurements of once they get the prints when I finally get them scanned, that'd be great!

Daryl
MN


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## Uglydog (Aug 31, 2015)

Here you go!
If anyone has these attachments and is able to take measurements to supplement these scans that'd be great for all of us.
If/when I tear down my newly acquired sub-head I'll do same.

Daryl
MN


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## reh (Aug 31, 2015)

Daryl,

Thank you for the docs.  these are a nice addition to the communal archive.  My Universal High Speed head is for a VN12, and is much different than this one for the 22L.  I will review in more detail and hopefully glean something.  
Ron


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## HMF (Aug 31, 2015)

I have a silly question.  How does the universal high speed head differ from the subhead and normal cutting head that comes with the #12? 

I have never seen it, and only saw the subhead on Ebay once.


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## Uglydog (Sep 1, 2015)

I believe the high speed attachment increases the spindle speed by 3. I've only seen pics and read some lit.
VN only pivot in the Y direction. The subhead allows for pivot in the X direction. 
Paired with a horizontal or vertical dividing head and/or a universal table you get a trigonometry challenge which I will find an overwhelming challenge. 
Paired with a gearbox attached to the DH, you can supposedly make all kinds of helical gears.
I'm sincerely looking forward to my first set-up!

Yeah, I'm the guy who struggles with basic math.

Daryl
MN


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## reh (Sep 1, 2015)

The two accessory catalog copies I have acquired from the internet list different options, and are not dated.  

I believe that the speed increase for the Universal High Speed (UHS) head is 5:3, or 1.66 times the input.  The UHS has 2 degrees of freedom and coupled with the cutterhead, gives 3 degrees of freedom.  As Daryl says, coupled with the 10" horizontal indexer and the gearbox, spiral gears are possible, according to the accessory catalogs.  The UHS also has an adjustable spindle, giving 2.5 inches of travel.  There are different UHS models for the various mill model numbers. 

There are two 10" indexers available for the VN mills, but one accessory catalog says only the horizontal one is good for all models, including the 12.  The 10" Vertical index is good for all models Except the No.6, No.12, and No.16.  When provided for a No. 6, 12, or 16, the spindle of the horizontal indexer is ground with VN "C" taper, same as the machine.  Otherwise it is the VN #2 taper.   
A second accessory catalog only discusses the NEW 10" Universal Spiral Index Center, with the VN "C" taper for the No.s 6 & 12, OR 112 collets for the No.s 22 & 32.
So, looks like a couple different versions out there.

The Universal Subhead mounts to the cutterhead and adds one additional degree of freedom, but has no speed increase.

The Gear Type High Speed attachment mounts to the cutterhead and gives a 3 to 1 speed increase.

There is also the Motor Driven High Speed Attachment used on the No.s 6, 12, 16 that replaces the normal cutterhead and has an electric motor to drive the spindle.  Other catalog only lists 6 & 12.

Ron
P.S.
If someone has a dog plate for the 7 1/2" indexer, a dimensioned sketch would be nice to post, so those of us without one could make one.

Also, I could use some dimensions for the UHS spindle adjust handle and indicator, since mine is missing.


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## Uglydog (Sep 1, 2015)

reh,
Sorry I can't help you with the 7.5"DH or the UHS.

If anyone needs measurements:
I've got a VN6 with optical X axis vernier scale.
The 22LU (slowly being reassembled) and a 22 subhead (no drawbar).
A VN 10inch swivel DH with all the plates, and most of the gears. 
I really would like carefully measure gearbox shaft hole locations and shaft sizes.

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Sep 1, 2015)

I think the build year on my 22L is 1954, it has the NMTB50 spindle and came with the dividing head gear box but only 2 gears.  I'll measure the shaft hole locations and shaft sizes.  I'll try to get to it within a week or two, I'm swamped right now and haven't been able to play in the shop.  
The 10" dividing head that I located also has the 50 taper.

Daryl, what size does your dividing head have?  What about the 22 subhead?

Mike


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## Uglydog (Sep 1, 2015)

Reeltor, where you been? I've done all but send flowers and chocolate.
Next week is more than good enough.
Reality is that I'm not gonna get to the gearbox until next spring.

The 22LU takes a BS13 taper.
I've got an adapter to VN 2 collets, and a MT3 adapter.
I was turning a BS13-11 adapter for the many BS 11 arbors I have. I'm not clear on all the trepidation over the BS13 tapers.
The subhead takes the VN 2 collet, of which I have an array. I gotta make a drawbar for the subhead.
Arrgh. More shop time!
Fortunately, thanks to stonehands (HM member) I've got a 22LU drawbar.

I don't know what the 10inch VN Vertical DH takes, she has what I think is a factory 3jaw and she is so perfectly aligned I haven't wanted to mess with it.

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Oct 4, 2015)

Daryl,

I haven't forgotten about mapping out hole and shaft locations on the DH gear box.  Haven't been in the shop since the beginning of Sept. I hope to get to it this week

Mike


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## Uglydog (Oct 4, 2015)

Completely understood, I'm hoping to get something done, someday, eventually.
However, if the gearbox gets to lonely send it my way I'll try to work something out.
Reality, I'm hoping to at least make a banjo. Although, guards such as your gearbox has would be best.
Unfortunately, my VN22LU has been on hold as I figure out how to cut the bevel gears for the powerfeed on my Boye&Emmes. 
Do you have all the gears for your VN?
I'm going to need to make a few to make the gears missing out of my change gears. 

Daryl
MN


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## Reeltor (Oct 4, 2015)

Daryl,
Sorry, I've grown attached to the gearbox  , now that I have the DH to go with it I can make any gears to go with it.  Nothing wrong with using the banjo, VN did sell them.  No, only a few gears came already attached in the box.  The Ebay seller who has a complete set of gears is tempting me; but I can't justify spending $250 on the set. It's still available as a buy it now listing
Ebay title 
*26-2025 1 1/8" Van Norman Gear Set with Box*
I'm feeling a bit better, I'll try to get you some measurements for you.


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## Uglydog (Oct 4, 2015)

I've been watching the gears on Ebay as well. 
Think I'm missing two??
If the seller reposts at a reasonable price, if you by the set, and if the 72tooth  is a duplicate, I'd be interested in purchasing it from you.
I hadn't realized you were ill.

Daryl
MN


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## BROCKWOOD (Sep 28, 2018)

Reeltor said:


> Daryl,
> 
> I haven't forgotten about mapping out hole and shaft locations on the DH gear box.  Haven't been in the shop since the beginning of Sept. I hope to get to it this week
> 
> Mike



Any progress on the gear box dimensions?

I know this is an old thread, but I recently bought a no10 Vertical with gears in box & no2 style collets with the proper NMTB 50 adaptor & drawbar. I am interested in making a gearbox. What good are the gears otherwise?



Here is a VN gear hanging out with a B&S group of gears. They are the same 14DP as the B&S only with a larger center bore. You could conceivably convert the B&S to work with the VN gearbox by reboring & rekeying the center hole.


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