# Southbend 9 x 48 - How worn is too worn?



## Taz

*1946 Southbend 9" Model A Restoration*

I'm looking at another Southbend, this one a 9 x 48 with quick change gears, and original cabinet/stand.  I'm still waiting on a serial number, but he says the bed is a little worn near the head.   It seems pretty obvious that we wouldn't ever want ANY deviation in the ways, but what I'm wondering is considering the filler products available, and repair techniques like scraping, how much wear would be considered too much to deal with?  I have zero problem picking up a little bit of a project, especially at this price, I just don't want to wind up searching for a replacement bed because it was un-repairable.

Changed title from "Southbend 9 x 48 - How worn is too worn?" to "1946 Southbend 9" Model A Restoration".


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## Taz

So it's a 1947 model, 9 x 54 actually.  Comes with a 3 jaw chuck, steady rest, taper attachment, and original stand.  Looks pretty well cared for, gears are all shiny and smooth, well lubed, the spindle has a little play, slides to the tail/head a little but not radially.  It has about .001 in wear across the flats, and the peak of the ways, but the gib has carved about .03 out of the faces.  There is a pronounced ridge atop the peak facing the operator.  It only goes for about 16 inches of the length.  Looks fixable, but that also looks like a lot of iron to true up.  

He wants $700...  what do you think?


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## macrnr

Sounds too high to me. $500.00 would be a better number. A taper attachment is worth a lot, but if you can feel a ridge on the prism way, the bed is toast. Beds can be had, but they are a pain to ship and you will pay accordingly.


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## Taz

So it's not repairable?


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## macrnr

I'm sure it is repairable, the question would be is it worth repairing? Richard King, who is a moderator for the *MACHINE WAY SCRAPING AND RESTORATION thread*

on this site would be the one to ask. That thread resides two slots above this one.


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## Taz

I shall give it a go, thanks for the tip!  I've done enough scraping to know that 38 inches of one and 54 of 5 more is a huge project, but I'm thinking of either filler for that small section, or just scraping the one face, and making a new prism to fill the gap.  I'll ask him.


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## Richard King

_


Taz said:



			So it's a 1947 model, 9 x 54 actually.  Comes with a 3 jaw chuck, steady rest, taper attachment, and original stand.  Looks pretty well cared for, gears are all shiny and smooth, well lubed, the spindle has a little play, slides to the tail/head a little but not radially.  It has about .001 in wear across the flats, and the peak of the ways, but the gib has carved about .03 out of the faces.  There is a pronounced ridge atop the peak facing the operator.  It only goes for about 16 inches of the length.  Looks fixable, but that also looks like a lot of iron to true up.  

He wants $700...  what do you think?
		
Click to expand...

_
I started to read your post and was surprised to see my name....and it is a coincidence.   It would help if you could take a few pictures and add them...The gib is carved out of the faces?  I'm not sure what you mean?  If you have a mag base and indicator a quick method of checking the wear in those V-ways near the chuck it to crank the saddle /carriage up next to the chuck and put the mag on the saddle on left front side and reach the indicator out to the end of the of the left front ways where the ways are not worn and zero the indicator with about .020" pressure on it.  

Then crank the saddle / carriage to the right and see what you get.  There will be a bit of a false reading when the saddle rides through the low area, but it will get you pretty close to knowing.  Check all the ways that way.   The ideal way would be to separate the and use that as a sled to go from the tail-stock ways because Tail-stock ways near the chuck never get any wear.  Maybe some dings on them when the chick was removed.  So you can stone the TS ways and mount the mag base on the TS bottom and again reach out with the indicator rod and indicator and test the ways for wear.   

I always say if it is worn more then .005" get it machined or ground.  I would try to keep the front and back V way equal and put a wear strip under the saddle to bring the saddle / carriage back to the same height so the feed shafts and rack go back to the original location.   I discussed this with Tadd on one of the posts in my section.  He has some photo's too of his SB.  I would say that machine is worth at least $1000.00 or it would be up here in MN.  If you think of the prices of those imports are 2 to 3 times more then that and no resale value.  The SB will hold the value for ever, even if it's a bucket of bolts.


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## Taz

YOU were surprised to see YOUR name?  I see your name everywhere google takes me!  You have quite the reputation when it comes to machine tool rebuilding... thanks for the reply.  

You know in my haste last night I didn't take any photos of the machine, except the serial umber, and the brass plate on the gearbox.  Here is a drawing that should do the job though.




It's only in the one v way (closest to the operator), and only extends to about 16" from the chuck.  Looks like someone had a habit of locking the saddle down, and forgetting to unlock it.  The ways were clean, but showed no sign of recent lubrication either.


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## Richard King

I meant in this forum and in another section of it.  I would think if you were to put your name on and not a Handle, then your name would be highlighted on the net too if you answered questions a lot too.  Your machine is so different them 99% of lathes.  The inside V is usually the one that wears the most because that's wear the chips lay and are trapped as the outside the chip fall to the floor or into a pan.  If the machine is good accept that way and the other ways are not worn more then .005" then You could scrape the bed or file it as you said.  Then put on Turcite or Rulon or Phenolic on the one side.  I generally never see or do this, but have done it one time in my 40+ years of rebuilding machines.  But hey it would work.  If I was doing it for a customer I would do the whole saddle.  I would machine the bottom of the saddle to remove the material needed so you could use .047".  The majority of machine builders use this thickness as the figure you will have to scrape off .005" off to match fit.  I need to go now, but can write more later, but I would bet you could find more on the net.  Texas Tornado on HMS has a excellent post detailing his lathe where he uses Turcite on his saddle.  
Have a great day.  Rich


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## Taz

Thanks again.  I will continue to read up, but any additional info you provide I will eat up!  I brought only a 48in straight edge (not a carpenters straight edge), a light, and some feelers last night.  I'll bring the magnetic base and indicator next visit, and check the saddle movement.  

This is just a hobby machine, so I'm inclined to believe if it runs tight and true, then run it.  My nature is always to attempt perfection too.  Looks like having it ground can be pretty expensive, but if scraping is an option I don't see a reason not to buy it.  I did a small scraping project on an x-y table, and enjoyed it thoroughly, whoops's and all.  Looking at the bed and saddle it would seem to be a little more complex to measure and fit, but one hell of a fun project, with a nice lathe on the other side.


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## Taz

Looks like I got beat again.  He sold it to a friend yesterday.  The hunt goes on... Thanks again for the input guys!


Chad


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## Taz

Well as luck would have it, his buddy backed out and I have another shot at it.  I'm going over in a few hours with some more appropriate measuring tools to take a closer look and see how it all runs.  Crossing fingers, I think he'll come down a bit too.


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## tj40

Mine is worn more than this but for the price I coudn't pass it up. I paid $20 for a South Bend 16x8 with 2 3 jaw chucks a faceplate and a taper attachment. So I can do some work and still come out way ahead. I am striping and painting it now. It was an ugly green and most of the paint was flaking off.


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## Taz

Yeah, you can't beat $20.00 there worth more than that to the scrap yard!  This one appears to originally have been green, but was poorly painted blue.  It definitely has some character left over from previous owners, but after close inspection today, nothing appears to be out as much as .01.  .006 was the worst variance I could find anywhere.  I'll post some pictures later tonight.  I'm gone on business for the rest of the week, but I gave him some cash, and he agreed to hold it as long as I needed.  Very nice guy!


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## Taz

As it turns out, the guy felt really bad about selling it to his buddy.  I liked him right off the bat, so I wasn't offended in the least that he wanted to take care of a friend since I hadn't put money in his hands yet.  In the end... Nice guys still win!!

Here you can see some of the wear in the front v-way, and what looks like a couple of bad dings that were ground out.





I brought a couple of magnetic bases and indicators, some drill rod, a straight edge, some feelers, and measured every combination of things I could think of from saddle to ways, saddle to chucked drill rod, tail stock to ways, checked all the movement in the cross-slide etc...  The worst it was out as far as movement goes was .006.  Not awesome in any way, but for my current use case, it's more than acceptable.  Also it's a machine I don't mind throwing a little time/money at down the road.  Most of what I want to fix is cosmetic, the rest I can nibble away at in my spare time.

From the tail down.



Steady rest.



Motor and gear box.





Taper attachment.



Should be a fun project... Plus, come this weekend... I'm a first time lathe owner!!

Chad


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## woodtickgreg

Congratulations on things working out in the end. She looks like she has a lot of potential. Should be a fun project bringing it back to a good user. looks like everything is there and just needs a good cleaning and paint. I would rewick it though.


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## Taz

Just ordered one of those rebuild kits on eBay.  Looks like it came with all the wicks/felts etc.  Anybody used one of his rebuild manuals?

 I think I'm looking forward to the rebuild just as much as making my first chips. I've wanted a lathe and a milling machine since I was a little boy.  50% goal achievement!


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## woodtickgreg

Taz said:


> Just ordered one of those rebuild kits on eBay.  Looks like it came with all the wicks/felts etc.  Anybody used one of his rebuild manuals?
> 
> I think I'm looking forward to the rebuild just as much as making my first chips. I've wanted a lathe and a milling machine since I was a little boy.  50% goal achievement!



Yup, I used em, I bought both the wick kit and the manual. The manual is not exact to each machine as south bend made little changes over the years and the manual I used covered the heavy 10l, 13, 14 1/2, and 16, I think the one for the 9 also covers the 10k  They are all basicly the same just scaled up or down in size. The manual gives a lot of tips on how to disassemble the parts without causing damage, it is a great resource with lots of tips and pictures. Even if your lathe is not exactly as pictured it gives enough info to figure it out. Well worth the purchase price in my opinion.


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## Taz

Wooooohoooooo!

Chad


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## Splat

Taz said:


> Just ordered one of those rebuild kits on eBay.  Looks like it came with all the wicks/felts etc.  Anybody used one of his rebuild manuals?
> I think I'm looking forward to the rebuild just as much as making my first chips. I've wanted a lathe and a milling machine since I was a little boy.  50% goal achievement!



Yep. Just like Greg, I found the rebuild kit to be of valuable assistance, and of course you get all the felts, wicks, etc.. so I think it's worth it too.  Just -take- -your- -time- tearing her down. Try to ensure you're driving out those taper pins from the gears/shafts from the small end. I just went thru a horror trying to get out a pin from the transverse gear/shaft because I think the PO put it in backwards. Anyway, good for you on your new lathe, bro! Any assistance we can give just let us know. There's other guys way more experienced than me with these things and everyone here is top notch and good people so you've come to the right place.


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## Taz

It's really too bad this thing has munched up ways.  After cleaning the amber off them, you can still see the original scraping on about 60-70% of the surface.  They are so UN-Worn everywhere else, and the ridge at the top is so UN-touched, I think I'll get a very long way just clamping a piece of precision ground steel over the wear, with a port drilled in the center, and injecting some Moglice.  

Working on the QCTP base right now... Pics to come! 


Chad


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## Taz

Guess you can't do much with those old tool posts, so...



Chuck turned out pretty good.



Virtually un-touched tail end.



Too much fun!
Chad


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## Taz

Oh boy... This is going to take a minute...










Chad


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## radial1951

Taz said:


> Oh boy... This is going to take a minute...  Chad



Hi Chad, Would you mind posting a pic of the rear of the cabinet showing how the countershaft/motor bracket is mounted? I'm thinking about buying a chineeese metal cabinet for my SB9" (also a '47) but I'm not sure about hanging the drive off the back and worried about it being back heavy and unstable. Do you think the setup is safe? Do the metal cabinets drum and rattle etc? I don't really feel like building a timber bench right now...

BTW, I reckon your SB will be just fine. I think you will be surprised that a few thous drop in the saddle over that distance will have little effect on the accuracy of average sized turned parts (Unless long and very small diameter). New felts, keep it clean and well oiled, and it will outlast all of us!

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________


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## woodtickgreg

Your off to a great start! Keep postin pics of the progress, it's a lot of fun for us to watch a project come together.


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Hi Chad, Would you mind posting a pic of the rear of the cabinet showing how the countershaft/motor bracket is mounted?
> 
> Regards, RossG
> radial1951
> _____________



Thanks for the encouragement... I'm not scheduled to start work on the nuclear power plant, or the spaceship till next month, so I think I have at least that long before I need to worry about trillionths!

The pics below should get you going.  The lathe feet sit on channel iron to lift it above the tray lip.  The piece under the head extends backward and over the lip, to create the mount.  The vertical piece serves as a stop/tensioner, so when you lock the belt down there's more than just the belt keeping it locked.  I don't really think this is all original stuff, but as far as operating goes, it doesn't sound or feel scary in the least.  It doesn't vibrate or bounce at all, and right now the whole thing is mounted on cheap and broken castors.  To be fair though, that stand is made of thicker steel than you'll find in most things these days.  

Left


Left Close



Right


Right Close



Front 



Back




Chad


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## Taz

woodtickgreg said:


> Your off to a great start! Keep postin pics of the progress, it's a lot of fun for us to watch a project come together.



Ask and you shall receive!

More clean stuff!



More stuff getting clean, God bless evaporust!





I just can't bring myself to paint a work of art grey, or black.  This is the base, the final coat will give it a wide peened look.  You can look in my images to see a sample of the finished color on my vise, but here's the first piece on its way to Wong pretty again!




Chad


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## radial1951

Taz said:


> ....The pics below should get you going.  The lathe feet sit on channel iron to lift it above the tray lip.  The piece under the head extends backward and over the lip, to create the mount.  The vertical piece serves as a stop/tensioner, so when you lock the belt down there's more than just the belt keeping it locked.  I don't really think this is all original stuff, but as far as operating goes, it doesn't sound or feel scary in the least.  It doesn't vibrate or bounce at all, and right now the whole thing is mounted on cheap and broken castors.  To be fair though, that stand is made of thicker steel than you'll find in most things these days. Chad


Hi Chad
Thanks heaps for the photos and your comments. Excellent info. Gives me confidence that the metal cabinet option is ok. BTW there is a recess in the back of the belt tensioning lever that rests on the pushrod when in the "belt tight" position. This allows it to lock just past the centre position in its toggle action. With the right belt correctly tensioned, you won't need that big vertical bit at the back... That Evaporust looks like it does a great job, paint and all.

BTW2, what is the Serial Number of your lathe. Mine is also a '47 model, bought new by my father, apparently one of the short production models without the front lip on the bed casting. Also has "SOUTH BEND" cast into the top surface of a couple of the bed strengthening ribs between the ways. I'll check my S/N when I get home later.

Thanks again and regards to all SBers from Oz.
RossG.
radial1951
_________


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> looks like it does a great job, paint and all.
> 
> BTW2, what is the Serial Number of your lathe.
> _________



I've never been able to take paint off with Evaporust, but then again that's why I like it. It'll take black oxide off (since its basically rust), but other than that it leaves most everything else alone.  Won't kill ya, doesn't stink, it's a little slow, but it doesn't appear to take off anything but oxididation.  Ive left things in there for days and it didn't appear to be etching the metal.

The serial number is 170069, stamped J A N below it.  I'm not positive it's a '47 but I found serial number very close that had details listed on another site.

BTW, thanks for the tip on the belt tensioner.  I'd love to get rid of that monstrosity hanging off the back!

Chad


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## corey607

Nice find. 

I can't wait to see the end result.


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## radial1951

Taz said:


> The serial number is 170069, stamped J A N below it.  I'm not positive it's a '47 but I found serial number very close that had details listed on another site.
> 
> BTW, thanks for the tip on the belt tensioner.  I'd love to get rid of that monstrosity hanging off the back! --  *Good, just cut it off **!! *


Hi Chad

From a couple of sources, it seems your lathe was built 1946, probably first half. In March '47 SBL changed to an entirely different Numbering System.

My SB9" is S/N 4155NAR8, see pic below, new in Sydney, Oz, late '47. Notice the "intermediate" style of the bed and foot castings.

Keep up the good work, and the photos coming...

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
______________


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## Taz

Oh no!  That looks pretty nasty.  Guess the bed wasn't the only thing they didn't clean/oil.



What's the story here?  Is this one of those things I deburr and call good, or is this a no go?

Spindle looks pretty good though.



It's coming along, got the apron all cleaned up and started in on painting it. I found a cool main color for it, will really set off that hammered sienna.  Should get the new felts and gaskets in this week sometime.  Work is insane but I always squeeze my 30min in the shop when I'm in town.  This weekend will really see the big progress!


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## woodtickgreg

I'm not real familiar with a 9 headstock bearing, if it has shims you can hone that lightly by hand with a cylinder hone to remove the scratches and polish it with some 600 grit wet and dry paper with some oil. Those scratches don't look that deep.


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## Taz

It's a bad pic, it's pretty deep.  But there's nothing to show for it but a bit of holographing on the spindle so I can't imagine it's of too much consequence.  There's no shims, just a thrust bearing at the back, and oil everywhere else.  I'm not terribly concerned with it until someone tells me to be.  The most noise, and vibration is coming from the counter-shaft.  Everything else was/is running very smooth.  We shall see when the felts get here, and the paint is finished how bad it is.


Chad


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## radial1951

Taz said:


> It's a bad pic, it's pretty deep.  But there's nothing to show for it but a bit of holographing on the spindle so I can't imagine it's of too much consequence.  There's no shims, just a thrust bearing at the back, and oil everywhere else.  I'm not terribly concerned with it until someone tells me to be.  The most noise, and vibration is coming from the counter-shaft.  Everything else was/is running very smooth.  We shall see when the felts get here, and the paint is finished how bad it is.
> Chad


Hi Chad, There should be a stack of shims, some VERY thin, in the slit at the front of each bearing housing where the clamp bolt goes through. The bolt should be able to lock down tight on the shims and that will provide the correct spindle to bearing clearance. Not sure about getting a round hole with a hone in a bore with all those oil groove segments. With all respect to Greg, I think it best to avoid any form of abrasive material in a cast iron bearing, just in case some grit particles are retained after cleaning. Just be sure there are no burrs along the edges of the score marks. If the rest of the main bearing looks ok, I would be more concerned about the bearing surface of the spindle, especially if that blue colour is from overheating. If any metal has picked up on it, you can carefully take it off with a fine India Stone. If you decide to give it a polish, I would suggest 1200 paper, nothing coarser. The bearing surface was originally surface hardened and "superfinished", as SBL called it, probably by linishing as is done to engine crankshafts.

If you haven't stripped it right down yet, now might be a good time to just clean everything, slip the spindle in, no oil, and see if you can adjust the front bearing to get 0.001" movement horizontally and vertically. You may want to know where you're heading. Here's a vid that shows how its done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS0DQusUR0w

If it seems ok, the score marks, as you suggest, won't matter at all. As long as the clearances are right and the spindle runs nicely with some oil, it will be great.

Sorry for the long post, and I hope I'm not trying to teach you how to suck eggs!

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Sorry for the long post, and I hope I'm not trying to teach you how to suck eggs!
> _____________



Not at all!  You're full of lots of great info!  I hadn't done much but remove the spindle, there's lots of paint in the gap where those shims would go, I'm glad to know I should look for them.  The blue in the photo is only in the photo, I'll take a better one tomorrow.


Chad


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## woodtickgreg

radial1951 said:


> Hi Chad, There should be a stack of shims, some VERY thin, in the slit at the front of each bearing housing where the clamp bolt goes through. The bolt should be able to lock down tight on the shims and that will provide the correct spindle to bearing clearance. Not sure about getting a round hole with a hone in a bore with all those oil groove segments. With all respect to Greg, I think it best to avoid any form of abrasive material in a cast iron bearing, just in case some grit particles are retained after cleaning. Just be sure there are no burrs along the edges of the score marks. If the rest of the main bearing looks ok, I would be more concerned about the bearing surface of the spindle, especially if that blue colour is from overheating. If any metal has picked up on it, you can carefully take it off with a fine India Stone. If you decide to give it a polish, I would suggest 1200 paper, nothing coarser. The bearing surface was originally surface hardened and "superfinished", as SBL called it, probably by linishing as is done to engine crankshafts.
> 
> If you haven't stripped it right down yet, now might be a good time to just clean everything, slip the spindle in, no oil, and see if you can adjust the front bearing to get 0.001" movement horizontally and vertically. You may want to know where you're heading. Here's a vid that shows how its done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS0DQusUR0w
> 
> If it seems ok, the score marks, as you suggest, won't matter at all. As long as the clearances are right and the spindle runs nicely with some oil, it will be great.
> 
> Sorry for the long post, and I hope I'm not trying to teach you how to suck eggs!
> 
> Regards, RossG
> radial1951
> _____________



Agreed that those oil grooves will make it difficult, but not impossible, that's why I said to turn the hone by hand just enough to nock down the high spots if any. Not to remove the scratches entirely but just smooth everything out before a polish. As far as the grit goes, I also agree that it would need a good flushing and wash with solvent. And you are right about a finer grit paper being better for a polished surface. All good advice above though.


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## radial1951

woodtickgreg said:


> Agreed that those oil grooves will make it difficult, but not impossible, that's why I said to turn the hone by hand just enough to nock down the high spots if any. Not to remove the scratches entirely but just smooth everything out before a polish. As far as the grit goes, I also agree that it would need a good flushing and wash with solvent ...


*Greg*, I totally agree. If Chad can turn a hone by hand in the bearing without it jumping around in the oil grooves, then it will take the bumps out of the bore. I know your Heavy-10 bearings came up very nicely, as did everything on your lathe. I'm just a worry-wart when it comes to abrasive grit and bearings, especially cast iron. If any grit stays in there, it will act like a lap. Cleanliness is essential, as you say.
______________

*Chad*, this is becoming an interesting rebuild and I can't wait to see the "secret" two-tone paint job! As my 9"SB is a similar age, you really got me thinking that an internal cleanout and new felts would be a good idea.

Speaking of rebuilds, did you follow Greg's Heavy 10 Project? Worth reading. It must be time for an update on it's progress too...

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
______________


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> *Greg*, I totally agree. If Chad can turn a hone by hand in the bearing without it jumping around in the oil grooves, then it will take the bumps out of the bore. I know your Heavy-10 bearings came up very nicely, as did everything on your lathe. I'm just a worry-wart when it comes to abrasive grit and bearings, especially cast iron. If any grit stays in there, it will act like a lap. Cleanliness is essential, as you say.
> ______________
> 
> *Chad*, this is becoming an interesting rebuild and I can't wait to see the "secret" two-tone paint job! As my 9"SB is a similar age, you really got me thinking that an internal cleanout and new felts would be a good idea.
> 
> Speaking of rebuilds, did you follow Greg's Heavy 10 Project? Worth reading. It must be time for an update on it's progress too...
> 
> Regards, RossG.
> radial1951
> ______________



I'm inclined to think that due to the lack of evidence on the spindle, whatever caused the scratches was dealt with.  I suppose I could blue it up and see how it prints before messing with a hone or sandpaper?

 Better pics of the spindle







I did find the shims this morning, that was a good video too!  Thanks for that!

I've just started making my way through the Southbend forum, I'll have to make Gregs rebuild my next read!

Should have the steady finished today so you'll get a glimpse of the paint!


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## Taz

Not too much to look at for today.  Soooo much fossilized grease it's astonishing.  This thing may have only been $350.00 when it was new, but I'm pretty sure in '46 that was a ton of money... Well I found acorns in it today.  

A few more parts in the clean trays, it's completely disassembled, but nothing that came off today got completely cleaned today.











Better pic of the spindle bearing, it deff had some garbage in there, but it's not all that bad... We'll call it a custom oil delivery system.



Still makes me sad to think it all once looked like this.



Playing with ways to do this and maintain the oil porting.



I couldn't FINISH the steady today, but I did get the rest of the accent color painted.  Don't mind the bleeding onto the contact surfaces, I can never get the masking to completely seal so I don't even try anymore.





One thing I noticed, is there was no pin or anything but the ways that located the headstock.  Is that feature unique to the heavy models?

Chad


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## woodtickgreg

On your headstock and on the bed their should be a round hole for a dowel pin to locate it, if not then the ways will locate it side to side, but left to right would have to be adjusted for proper gear alignment. The paint looks nice, very different.


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## Taz

woodtickgreg said:


> On your headstock and on the bed their should be a round hole for a dowel pin to locate it, if not then the ways will locate it side to side, but left to right would have to be adjusted for proper gear alignment. The paint looks nice, very different.



No hole on the bed at all, no matter though, I'd have still had to take the head off anyway.  Thanks on the color, it's gonna stand out for sure.  Though I do love that particular color, I don't think I could handle an entire lathe covered in it. That would be something else!


Chad


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## Splat

Cool color, Chad. Is that an auto paint?


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## Taz

Splat said:


> Cool color, Chad. Is that an auto paint?



It's actually my favorite rattle can line!  It's Rust-oleum Universal.  Some of the coolest looking 1-step paints, and they are hard as hell once cured.  I've painted lift gates that after a year of pallet jack traffic still look good, and even a minivan for less than $100.00.  They have a wide and fine spray pattern compared to most   They also have a trigger top instead of a button, and spray upside down!

That color is a combination of copper for the base, and sienna mist for a light top-coat.  That's where the deep orange color came from between the first and second group of photos.


Chad


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Speaking of rebuilds, did you follow Greg's Heavy 10 Project? Worth reading. It must be time for an update on it's progress too...
> 
> Regards, RossG.
> radial1951
> ______________



That was quite a read' and you're right radial...  Greg that is a beautiful machine!  I hope mine will turn out to be as nice (minus the 16in of bed we won't talk about).


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## woodtickgreg

Taz said:


> That was quite a read' and you're right radial...  Greg that is a beautiful machine!  I hope mine will turn out to be as nice (minus the 16in of bed we won't talk about).


Thanks for the compliments, Yea I'm pretty proud of her. I knew almost nothing about a south bend when I got her, but I learned as I went, got a lot of help from people here too. I'm sure yours will turn out great too, from the pics you have posted your off to a great start and it's looking good already. I'll be following your build and enjoying your progress right along with you.


----------



## Taz

Its an inside night tonight, so I broke out the granite to check a few things out, looks like the bed ways aren't the only thing not straight.




I'm assuming this entire stretch needs to be true'd up... Oh I got a long way to go.






Chad


----------



## radial1951

Taz said:


> I'm inclined to think that due to the lack of evidence on the spindle, whatever caused the scratches was dealt with.  I suppose I could blue it up and see how it prints before messing with a hone or sandpaper?...


Hi Chad, Your spindle looks very good. You could try blueing it, but a couple of thou clearance is an awful lot when using prussian blue. Even when brand new, theoretically the spindle would have only touched the bearing at the bottom in the centre, and have 0.0005"-0.001" clearance at the front and rear of the bearing bore ie 1-2 thou clearance on diameter.

Your original idea is fine. Clean and paint everything, assemble the spindle, dry and clean, and adjust the front bearing for 0.001" vertical clearance. If the horizontal play is about the same or maybe even 2-3 thou, you can throw a party! Bearings usually wear in the vertical dimension because the work piece wants to climb over the tool. That's why taking out shims will usually fix excessive play in a bearing by pulling the top half down.

OR, you could do all of that now, and then know where you go from here. It's your choice, but either way, if it's REALLY bad, another (better) headstock might be the best option. I think Greg did that with his Heavy 10.

Same with the cross slide. Having a nice granite plate will identify all the bad bits. But, sometimes, ignorance is bliss! I'd leave it well alone, unless you simply must recondition it. Checking that the tailstock is on centre with the spindle, vertically, is one thing I certainly would do. Very annoying when a small centre drill breaks because the tailstock barrel jumps up to be on the centreline... Don't forget, the last time your SB was used, it probably actually worked like a lathe! ) Keep the pics coming.

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________


----------



## Splat

+1 what Ross said.


----------



## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Clean and paint everything, assemble the spindle, dry and clean, and adjust the front bearing for 0.001" vertical clearance. If the horizontal play is about the same or maybe even 2-3 thou, you can throw a party!
> 
> OR, you could do all of that now, and then know where you go from here. It's your choice, but either way, if it's REALLY bad, another (better) headstock might be the best option. I think Greg did that with his Heavy 10.
> 
> Regards, RossG
> radial1951
> _____________



I like the "Don't restore and then replace method" LOL... I'm preparing for a wet fit this weekend before I get to the rest of the painting, I'll do it then.



radial1951 said:


> Same with the cross slide. Having a nice granite plate will identify all the bad bits. But, sometimes, ignorance is bliss! I'd leave it well alone, unless you simply must recondition it. Checking that the tailstock is on centre with the spindle, vertically, is one thing I certainly would do. Very annoying when a small centre drill breaks because the tailstock barrel jumps up to be on the centreline... Don't forget, the last time your SB was used, it probably actually worked like a lathe! ) Keep the pics coming.
> 
> Regards, RossG
> radial1951
> _____________



I feel a little like I did when I got my first car, and waxed it once week.  I'm sure it will die off, but I actually enjoy scraping.  I keep my granite in the lab inside, so it's work I can pickup and put down as work issues arise (I have a crazy job).  Plus, it looks so damn cool.  Most of it is still pretty straight, including the dovetails on that particular part, a quick survey lastnight showed I can bring the top surface back into parallel with the dovetails just by following the flat on top, and not have to mess with them.    

As always, thanks for the tips gentlemen!  I greatly appreciate your expertise!

Sidenote... rebuild kit arrives today!


----------



## Richard King

From my observation of Taz, He has ample experience in scraping, is an excellent mechanic and teacher.  Taz your disassembled pictures and the information you provided to the group looks as if you were instructing and helping the other SB owners with a "how to" post.    I believe many here like to give advice because they care and think they are helping.  


Thanks for your posts.


Rich

PS:  I am back from my vacation and was immediately depressed....came home to 12" of snow in my driveway Monday night, Last night it snowed again.  UuFDAH..  We were so lucky compared to those poor folks on the Carnival ship.


----------



## Taz

Richard King said:


> From my observation of Taz, He has ample experience in scraping, is an excellent mechanic and teacher.  Taz your disassembled pictures and the information you provided to the group looks as if you were instructing and helping the other SB owners with a "how to" post.    I believe many here like to give advice because they care and think they are helping.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your posts.
> 
> 
> Rich



First of all, wow, and thanks so much!  I feel like I get more help and input here than any other forum I've ever been a part of.  Much of what I learn these days are from threads exactly like this one, where someone else's questions got me the answer for mine, so I try to be detailed.  Making deposits, not just withdrawals so to speak.  

If someone can benefit from my experience, great!  If someone can benefit from my in-experience... Even better!  Not many places in the world where the 
latter is possible, I'm greatful for this one.

BTW hope your cruise was/is great!

Chad


----------



## Taz

Duplicate... Deleted.

Chad


----------



## radial1951

Taz said:


> ....I'm preparing for a wet fit this weekend before I get to the rest of the painting.....but I actually enjoy scraping.
> Sidenote... rebuild kit arrives today!


Hi Chad, I hope the trial assembly of the head stock goes well (I guess that's what a "wet fit" is!). Look forward to seeing pics etc as usual.

I love old machines and doing a general fix-up and nice paint job. But the thought of scraping slide ways is beyond my enthusiasm. I completely rebuilt the tailstock of a TOZ Toolroom Lathe as one of a group of apprentices who reconditioned the machine. Scraped the base to the (hardened) bed, machined the top and made a packing plate to bring it back to centre height, and made a new barrel, internally grinding the Morse taper. That was the experience of a lifetime i.e. I never felt the need to do it again...)

Next month I hope to start the resto of my 1914-ish 10" Pratt & Whitney. Luckily, all the slides are almost like new, amazing for a century old lathe.

BTW Chad, your SB9 rebuild has convinced me to order the manual and rebuild kit for my (Dad's) '47 SB9 (post#31), and mount it on a cabinet stand (with the horizontal drive setup as per your pics, thanks). The timber bench in the photo was full of borers, so the lathe is on the floor at the moment. It's in perfect condition, but seeing the oiling felt in your headstock made me realise that after 65+years, it's time for a strip down (careful with the original paint), clean out, new felts etc.

Chad, thanks for starting this thread, and thanks to all others for your posts, it is really interesting.

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
______________


----------



## Taz

I admire your experience Ross.  I spent much of my life focusing on where I was headed, and found it terribly difficult to be wherever I was.  Today, with a crazy job, I enjoy an act that yields something beautiful at the end, but I find peace in the act itself!  I'm always a little sad when there's nothing minuscule left to quibble over, though I do understand where you're coming from.

Wet fit = dry fit with oil.  I was taught that something that needs oil to run, needs oil to assemble.  Later in life I learned that in a sterile environment thats not necessarily true, but my shop is far from sterile!  So... I wet fit.

Had meetings till late tonight, but I did manage to spray a little paint, and clean almost everything else (bed, cabinet, and motor mount are all that's left).

I was thinking, since I have it apart, and it wouldn't take much.  What do you guys think of a real life exploded parts view?  I have a copy of the parts list for a very similar model, and thought it would be cool to arrange the parts in the same fashion as the drawing, photograph in high-res, and label them just the same.  Might be a handy reference for future rebuilders.  Does this exist already?

Chad


----------



## Taz

More parts came in!  Funny the fairly standard and very expensive thrust bearing didn't come in, but this one came 8am next day.  Overly insane load rating on these, for $4.00, 1/5 the price of the thrust bearing.




For those who have an IBT close by, and want to go this route, here are the part numbers.

Koyo
NTA-2233;L001 x 1
NTA-2233;L125 x 2




Chad


----------



## woodtickgreg

Taz said:


> I was thinking, since I have it apart, and it wouldn't take much.  What do you guys think of a real life exploded parts view?  I have a copy of the parts list for a very similar model, and thought it would be cool to arrange the parts in the same fashion as the drawing, photograph in high-res, and label them just the same.  Might be a handy reference for future rebuilders.  Does this exist already?
> 
> Chad


I think that would be a great thing to do for many on this forum. For current members and those that would come long after your build is done. I don't know if it already exist  but it sure would be cool to have a fresh version.


----------



## Taz

woodtickgreg said:


> it sure would be cool to have a fresh version.



I think so too!  I would have loved to see a photo-catalog of all the parts.  Just to learn all the part names, and see that what looks like 20 pieces assembled is really more like 100 LOL.  I bet you I could make an interactive PDF or something that one could download, where clicking a part would pop-up an info-box, or take you to another page with close ups or additional data... Hmmmmm.......


Chad


----------



## Taz

Not too much time to myself this week, and I leave town tomorrow on business for a week, but I did knock out a bunch of the small stuff.  Got the remaining paint off of most of the parts, cut the ugly back off the motor mount plate, formed the bed of that plate to match the motor mount foot, polished lots of steel, took my first shot at the main color (didn't like), and even squeezed a little scraping in.

Too much of the natural iron color is coming through this to shoot it straight.  Its supposed to be a white pearlescent, but looks silver.  I found a combination of white base coat, light flake champagne middle coat, and THEN pearl that looks better, but now that I see how much of the irons texture comes through I'm debating whether to bondo and smooth, or use a hammered base coat to even it out.

Here's the un-successful shoot.



Painted parts all clean.  These things have many parts!





Little scrapey scrape.


Started in on the taper attachment, it's almost done too.

This thing was disgusting.  There was barely contact point that wasn't black as night.  Just about everything in there was covered with a good coating of soot.  I can't imagine that's very good for the power curve.



Guess I gotta take a week off, and go make that money!  



Chad


----------



## radial1951

*What size V-belt does it have?*

Chad, those bare castings are really nice. Did you clean them up with a wire whee, or a buff? They look too good to cover them up with paint!

I realise your lathe has a "custom" mounting position for the drive, but just wondering what size V-Belt is fitted.

Does anybody know the correct V-Belt size to use from the countershaft to spindle on a horizontal drive bench model SB9". Mine currently has a B-51, the original Hoover 1/2hp motor with 2 step V-pulley. Can a shorter belt be used to keep the bench width to a minimum? (It's in pieces on the floor waiting for a new bench/cabinet). The drawing shows different positions for the countershaft (it's not very clear). I can't see why taper turning or metric attachment would affect the position of the drive. Any ideas?

Regards, RossG
ragial1951
_____________


----------



## Taz

*1946 Southbend 9" Model A Restoration*



radial1951 said:


> Chad, those bare castings are really nice. Did you clean them up with a wire whee, or a buff? They look too good to cover them up with paint!
> _____________



Thanks!  I think so too, but I imagine that the chemical gods have some oxidizing punishment in store for those who don't paint!

There was too much paint to do all in one step.  3 colors, starting with what looked like army green (we'll see who purchased it when I get my serial card).  I started with a spray on chemical stripper.  It's a thick powerful and fast formula so I don't have to worry about dripping onto surfaces I don't want to etch.  Then scraped/brushed off what I could.  Castings are hard to clean completely, especially in these complex shapes, so I used a combination of 3 different shapes of extra fine wire wheels on 1/4" arbor with my die grinder (also known as the big rotozip) at a low speed so as not to remove any metal. There's a 3" wheel, a 2" cone, and a densely packed 1" brass bulb shape I like. All castings apart from the bed took less than an hour to clean like that.  

The last step hasn't been done on those parts yet.  Paint doesn't stick too well to polished metal, and i hate doing things twice that should only be done once, so I'll etch it before painting.

I'll clean first with warm water and TSP.  Then wipe down with alcohol.  Then mix up a pint of 90/10, maybe 80/20, water/phosphoric acid, and mist it onto the surfaces to be painted. Usually about 15min or so is enough to give the paint something to grab onto.

!!!ACID SAFETY NOTE!!!!

REMEMBER YOUR 3 A'S WHEN MIXING ACID!!  ALWAYS ADD ACID TO WATER!  They have a synergistic effect when mixed and generate heat, that is to say, the mixture heats the water, and the ratio of acid to water dictates how much!  If you poor water into acid it can boil the water and splatter you with hot acid!  Not a good day in the shop!  Also never poor live acids down the drain.  You can use baking sodas to alter the PH, baking soda is probably safer, but amonia will work too.  Add slowly and check with pool test strips to ensure its balanced before pooring.




radial1951 said:


> Does anybody know the correct V-Belt size to use from the countershaft to spindle on a horizontal drive bench model SB9".
> _____________



I have mine back at the shop still, it's cut but I'll measure when I get back if nobody else has answered.  I've read that correct belt length is important to these lathes running vibe free.


PS: I just accidentally figured out how the parser interprets a code comment LOL
Chad


----------



## Taz

Goodbye to my fellow New Mexicans, and hello to my fellow Oklahomans... Back to my home and shop today!


----------



## firemech

Taz, what is this felt and wick kit you and others talk about for the 9". I have a recdently purchased 1958 9" southbend that works well and looks good but given the age; I think it would be good preventative maintenance to disassemble and check these components before "putting it to work". Would rather spend some time and money to preserve what I have then to spend more time and money to repair what I didn't maintain.
Larry


----------



## woodtickgreg

firemech said:


> Taz, what is this felt and wick kit you and others talk about for the 9". I have a recdently purchased 1958 9" southbend that works well and looks good but given the age; I think it would be good preventative maintenance to disassemble and check these components before "putting it to work". Would rather spend some time and money to preserve what I have then to spend more time and money to repair what I didn't maintain.
> Larry


The wick kits and rebuild manuals are available on ebay, if you buy both at the same time there is a discount. The books are well written and lots of photo's. If I remember correctly the seller is ilion industries. I used them on my heavy 10L and they where good quality and very complete.


----------



## Taz

Greg said it.  Very good quality, and very good seller.  The oil delivery in these isn't handled by pumps, it's handled by felt and wicks.  Bad felt/wick is like a car with no oil pump... soon to be scrap yard fodder.  I can tell you as clean as mine was, the felts were stable but useless.  So filled with decades of fine metal particles they may as well have been stone, still wet on the outside, but nothing going in or out for sure.  After a complete disassembly on the road to restoration (my first lathe), I wouldn't think of using a lathe this old without it.

This is the 9" Model A kit as I received it.




I read a poem in one of the old Southbend docs about a thin film of oil being the reason the war was lost.  I love the irony that 1000lbs of iron is turned to garbage without the thin film of oil the little fuzzy pieces of felt deliver.

In other news, look what I found in my robot parts bin...



A little quick math makes me think I can safely squeeze about 1HP, out of it.  The speed controller is not only ready for a simple speed selection, but has breaking, reversing, and safety cutoff circuits too. 

I don't know if I'm going to be able to help myself!  Poor thing is going to look funny without the motor mount hanging off the back.

Chad


----------



## Taz

Spindle wicks as they came out of the headstock... This is exactly how they were, sitting in their pockets, I did not pull the wool/felt out during removal.




Not pretty.  The southbend oiling chart, and "how to run a lathe" book recommends monthly flush, clean and change for the spindle oil.  I would imagine one could extrapolate the hours in a duty machines month and use that figure instead.  I promise it was never done on this one... Just add when it gets hot right? 

I was actually laughing with my companies owners the other day.  I have the oldest truck in the fleet, by quite a few years.  It has the second highest mileage.  I use the best oil, and only top quality parts, and my maintenance cost is 2-3 times higher than anyone else's.  My repair cost just crept over $0.00 for the first time in 150,000mi.  Which puts my maintenance and repair cost combined less than any other vehicles repair cost alone.  Something to be said for proper care.


----------



## woodtickgreg

Yuck!


----------



## Richard King

Hi Everyone,

I attached Leveling / Alignment and 2 Collar Test instructions in my Machine Scraping and Restoration forum and I downloaded it to the Download section too.


----------



## Taz

Richard King said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I attached Leveling / Alignment and 2 Collar Test instructions in my Machine Scraping and Restoration forum and I downloaded it to the Download section too.



Thanks for the heads up!  Richard is giving away freebies!


Chad


----------



## Taz

By the way Greg, I found a good set of small-medium cylinder hones.  I took the sharp edges off the long stones and two manual passes did exactly what I needed.  Thanks for the idea!


----------



## Taz

I finally got the motor assy. disassembled today.  Thanks to the genius who pounded the head of the pin though the pulley, and then mushroomed the small end trying to push it back.  Luckily I noticed the pulley was cracked on what appeared to be the small end (really the fat one) before I wasted any time.  

Tip for those who don't know.  Your local ACE Hardware carries a full line of tapered pins!

I got enough of the paint off the motor plate to see its a 1/3HP.  That can't possibly be enough to run a 9" can it?  Much respect to antique engineering if it is, I've got a new sealed 1HP laying around somewhere if it isn't, but it's really making me think twice about that DC motor.


----------



## Splat

Taz said:


> Tip for those who don't know.  Your local ACE Hardware carries a full line of tapered pins!



It depends on the store, since most ACE stores are privately owned. If the fastener company supplying them is Hillman then chances are good they'll have them. What they don't have is metal dowel pins. I've not seen them in any ACE store yet.


----------



## Taz

Splat said:


> It depends on the store, since most ACE stores are privately owned. If the fastener company supplying them is Hillman then chances are good they'll have them. What they don't have is metal dowel pins. I've not seen them in any ACE store yet.



Good to know, thanks for the clarification.  I was shocked to see them, and dissapointed to see they did not have oiler cups.  They had a 20% off anything you can fit in a bag day, so i went and swapped out all those evil flathead screws.  Came up short on the gib screws, and oilers, but walked out with new pins.

"Dowel" as in straight pin, or is there something else?


----------



## Taz

My new spindle thrust bearing came in today (the one that goes between main bearings).  It was unfortunately the wrong size by a long shot.  I was going to replace it just for the sake of certainty, but after talking to my usual salesperson, it turns out its hard to find, and will cost $80-$100!  I'm wondering now if anyone has found a better source, or if it's even worth replacing if mine feels smooth?

Also wondering of anyone else has the same illness I do, in hating flat head screws?  I've easily found good replacements for all but one item.  Those damn gib screws!  I have 2 options but both require bulk orders.  I like the idea of being able to lock them, so I found a 3/4" long AND a 1" long option so I could put a lock nut on the end.  I have to buy 100-300 of them depending where I get them from though.  Have any of you found a good source for these?  If not, how many of you would be interested in such an alteration? I would consider making up a little kit and making them available to our members if enough were interested to justify the bulk. It might be that I am alone in my hatred of the ancient slotted screw!


----------



## radial1951

*Re: 1946 Southbend 9" Model A Restoration*



Taz said:


> I have mine back at the shop still, it's cut but I'll measure when I get back if nobody else has answered.  I've read that correct belt length is important to these lathes running vibe free. Chad


Hi Chad,

No comment from anyone yet re V-Belt length for horizontal drive. I got my repair manual last week but it's all for the flat belt version! Would you mind measuring your belt or often the size is moulded into it. TIA.

It would be interesting to know if all SB9" have the same size belt. At the moment my old belt is a B-51.

I'm sure glad I got the felt kit after seeing your spindle wicks. It will be interesting to see what my wicks look like, knowing that it's a one owner lathe and was always oiled. My father fitted brass wick-feed oil cups at some stage, presumably while the spindle was out for a belt change. Maybe he didn't trust the standard setup!

Regards, RossG
radial1951
______________


----------



## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Hi Chad,
> 
> No comment from anyone yet re V-Belt length for horizontal drive.
> ______________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 48181



You are absolutely right!  I'm headed home right now, I'll grab it on the way in.

I'll be interested to see how your wicks have faired being a "well cared for" lathe.  I suspect it's more like a vehicle only with lower temps... use makes oil dirty.


----------



## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Does anybody know the correct V-Belt size to use from the countershaft to spindle on a horizontal drive bench model SB9".
> Regards, RossG
> ragial1951
> _____________



Mine as it came on a custom mount, was 5/8" x 47", too worn to read any markings though.  Hard to say if that was the original size or not.  I remember reading in a few places that the belt length was important to running vibration free, and B51/B52 seem to be the most common sizes on stock mounts with the correct mounting relationship to bed foot.  I've also read from users who talked directly to southbend that 40" to 42" is correct.  I would say that mine is probably long for the haul, there is a second coupling nut, and piece of all thread added to the linkage on mine, presumably to take up the additional length.  Hope it helps!


----------



## Taz

Last bath for almost everything!




Just have 2 parts I think are too far gone to keep.  Half nuts have almost nothing left, and the spindle where all the change gears stack up.  Hard to see here but it's pretty ribbed up.


----------



## radial1951

*Re: Southbend 9 x 48 - Correct V-Belt length?*



Taz said:


> Mine as it came on a custom mount, was 5/8" x 47", too worn to read any markings though.  Hard to say if that was the original size or not.  I remember reading in a few places that the belt length was important to running vibration free, and B51/B52 seem to be the most common sizes on stock mounts with the correct mounting relationship to bed foot.  I've also read from users who talked directly to southbend that 40" to 42" is correct.  I would say that mine is probably long for the haul, there is a second coupling nut, and piece of all thread added to the linkage on mine, presumably to take up the additional length.  Hope it helps!


Thanks for that. Can't imagine there being such a big variation for what is a "standard" setup. Perhaps the 1/2hp motor needs more clearance behind the lathe ? Your B-47 to my B-51 is only 2" more centre distance, seems logical...

As my lathe was on its bench since new in 1947, I guess it had the correct length V-belt. The bench was scrapped 18 months ago, full of borers, no measurements taken (of course).

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
______________


----------



## Taz

I say if it didn't slip, had enough power, and didn't shake th pictures off the wall... You're probably OK.  To be fair though, I know almost nothing about these.  Mine may blow up when I get it back together for all we know LOL.


----------



## Taz

I just realized its probably very easy to calculate, if you have the stock linkage, since the pulley sizes are relatively close in each pair.  It won't be perfect, but it bet it's close enough.  

Tighten the coupling nut, and leave some room to slack it a bit (probably there is an official ratio here), lock it as if to engage the pulleys, and measure the distance between spindle centers.  Multiply by 2.  

Calculate the circumference of each pulley, in a matching pair, divide each by 2. 

You should now have 2 values based on half pulley circumference, and one based on spindle centers.

Add the half-circumference from both pulleys, to the result of the spindle center measurement, and I'll put money on it being within an acceptable margin.


----------



## radial1951

Taz said:


> I just realized its probably very easy to calculate, if you have the stock linkage, since the pulley sizes are relatively close in each pair.  It won't be perfect, but it bet it's close enough...


Thanks Chad, of course you are right. I am hoping there is a mounting diagram for the V-belt SB9, similar to the one I posted for the flat belt version. Rather than hijack your thread, I'll start one on this topic when I'm closer to actually doing the job.

BTW, after much thinking(!), I have decided to use a ready made flat pack timber bench to mount my SB9, rather than a 2 box metal cabinet type from one of the imported lathes. It's a few more $$s but has a full shelf below the bench top. Better for tool storage ideas and I can mount my small bench drill on the end. Which is good, because such a fine American machine would not look right on a blue sheet metal box made in China. IMHO...

Back to your restoration, keep the pics coming.

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
______________


----------



## Taz

Look what I found under the paint.




Do you think this is a casting date, mould creation date, or could it possibly be the Mfg. date of the entire lathe?



radial1951 said:


> Rather than hijack your thread,
> 
> Regards, RossG.
> radial1951
> ______________



I have no thread to hijack!  Let's not forget you guys are teaching me.  If you join the conversation, especially with questions about an almost identical lathe, it's one less click I have to get that answer too!  I'll watch yours for the answer, if I find the layout, I'll let you know.


----------



## Taz

Well, lots of cleaning finally done.  Still haven't touched the bed, I'm going to wait until I've decided on a re-grind first.  I had 2 issues that had to be dealt with.  A spindle n the gearbox, and the half nuts.  Not much in the way of decent priced replacements on eBay right now, and the half nuts are pretty much shot.




So with nothing to lose, I'm going to Mickey mouse them and see if it works.  Here's the result.  The feel good, we'll see if they do the job later.




Not sure if I like these yet, but here's part one of "gits rid of the hinges"






Funny that the threaded cups wound up having the exact same pitch and size as a Schrader valve stem.  It made threaded brass tube fairly easy to come by.  Made these by cutting off the end of a barbed hose coupler, and turning the first barb down. 




Not sold on the caps yet, but it's what I had.  I'd like to find something a little more organic looking, to match the rest of the lathe.  Anyway, off to read bedtime stories.  Tomorrow I finish my new scraper, and polish off the rest the carriage!


----------



## Splat

I dig those cup covers. Kinda medieval looking.    I don't know if you saw this but Mike from Jayhawk Machinetool  offers halfnut repairs on Ebay and I've heard good things about his work.


----------



## Richard King

Splat said:


> I dig those cup covers. Kinda medieval looking.    I don't know if you saw this but Mike from Jayhawk Machinetool  offers halfnut repairs on Ebay and I've heard good things about his work.




I can also help you "for free", accept you will need to buy the repair material on how to repair 1/2 nuts and feed nuts.   I saw a thread where a guy melted nylon material around a feed screw someplace. Maybe on You Tube, really cool.


----------



## Taz

Splat said:


> I dig those cup covers. Kinda medieval looking.    I don't know if you saw this but Mike from Jayhawk Machinetool  offers halfnut repairs on Ebay and I've heard good things about his work.



Thanks Splat, I did see that, less than half of what the NOS one is going for, and they look really nice too.  That's why I say nothing to lose, my repair can be removed, and another one done in its place.  What I did was use an epoxy metal repair putty, ive used before.  Never in this type of repair, but i had a drill press spindle pulley with badly worn splines, that was causing a lot of chatter.  Smooth as silk now.  I duplicated the mounting post holes from the apron onto a piece of 3/8 steel plate, and made shims to set the gap between the two halves, and mounted the halves to the plate.  I mounted the lead screw in vblocks, and laid the steel plate flat beneath the lead screw and shimmed it up to the screw.  I positioned the key-way vertically so the putty didn't take the key way impression, aligned it so the screw threads sat agains the UN-worn side in the halves, and coated the screw with WD40.  Then mixed up the putty, pressed it in the halves, and clamped them down.  This will at least get it running long enough that I can turn new inserts from a synthetic mould and do a better repair.  I'm shocked to see how good the screw stood up to the abuse though!











Richard King said:


> I can also help you "for free", accept you will need to buy the repair material on how to repair 1/2 nuts and feed nuts.   I saw a thread where a guy melted nylon material around a feed screw someplace. Maybe on You Tube, really cool.



I have little faith that this is going to stand up, only because I don't see everyone doing it, and it's ridiculously easy.  I will certainly get in touch with you before moving forward Richard.  When you say "repair material", do you mean an instructional, or the actual medium that will serve as the filler?


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## Taz

OK, so I lied, I didn't work on the scraper, and cross-slide today.  I saw a cross slide casting with t-slots that might change the game.  I did however have two brass bearings in the gearbox that were shot.  Let me just say how much I never want to try to fabricate 2 bronze bearings without a functioning lathe... EVER again.  They are not perfect, but I think (hope) they'll be just fine.


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## woodtickgreg

I am so glad I didn't have to do that, not that I wouldn't, just glad I didn't have to. Good work!


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## Splat

Richard King said:


> I can also help you "for free", accept you will need to buy the repair material on how to repair 1/2 nuts and feed nuts.   I saw a thread where a guy melted nylon material around a feed screw someplace. Maybe on You Tube, really cool.



Ok, I remember reading about that! I'd forgotten about that. It might not be the same one though but *here's* the one I'm remembering.


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## Taz

woodtickgreg said:


> I am so glad I didn't have to do that, not that I wouldn't, just glad I didn't have to. Good work!



I'm glad YOU didn't have to too!  Good news is, a quick fit has her spinning smooth as silk (I'm actually surprised).  Funny story though... I lost a gear!  I tore the house apart, my truck, the shop, dumped out garbage cans... Turns out the boy has an affinity for things of the mechanical variety... I found it in his closet, hidden where he always hides things.  How can you be mad at a kid for loving the same thing you do, and causing no harm, but a few grey hairs?  Parenting sucks, because there's still an important lesson that has to be learned.  A shepherd still uses the hook on his staff to guide, before using the point to hurt, so we'll let the punishment fit the crime.


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## Splat

Taz said:


> I'm glad YOU didn't have to too!  Good news is, a quick fit has her spinning smooth as silk (I'm actually surprised).  Funny story though... I lost a gear!  I tore the house apart, my truck, the shop, dumped out garbage cans... Turns out the boy has an affinity for things of the mechanical variety... I found it in his closet, hidden where he always hides things.  How can you be mad at a kid for loving the same thing you do, and causing no harm, but a few grey hairs?  Parenting sucks, because there's still an important lesson that has to be learned.  A shepherd still uses the hook on his staff to guide, before using the point to hurt, so we'll let the punishment fit the crime.



:rofl:  That would'a drove me nuts, too!   God bless him, and you too for not getting overupset about it.


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## Taz

Ha!  We had a good laugh about it too!  It's easy to forget, but my uncle, who is arguably the best father I've ever known, told me once as a young man... "Parenting is easy, kids learn their own lessons, it's all about saving them from the ones that cost the most (their life).  The hard part is not blowing your lid about the ones that don't.".  If there is a man on earth I strive to be like, it's him.


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## Taz

A couple more (un-finished) options for the oil cups.

I like this one, with a little hand shaping I think it might be my favorite.



I like this for the big reservoir, but it's a little bulky, I afraid it might get knocked off too easily.


Different cap



Now that I'm a little deeper in it, I'm thinking about concealing the delivery system, and piping it to a set of large cups behind the lathe.  

I have 2 options as I see it.  

1 - Gravity fed in which case the cups would have to sit up high enough to be exposed, and easily damaged.
2 - Pressure fed, by rigging up a pump on top of the cups, Just a few psi, for just a moment to re-feed the gallery/reservoir.  In this case I'd be able to hide it all, which would be my favored route.  I think that having a sealed pump delivery though might just wind up either starving the system, or pushing oil out of every bearing contact.

Just toying with the idea, but I think it would be pretty cool.


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## Taz

Looks like my stand was probably a southbend, the knob on the cabinet door is identical to the rest of the lathe, but either the tray belonged to a something else, or the whole thing was designed for one of the heavy models +.  There's a cutout in th cabinet top for a belt, but not in the tray, and the tray lip is too deep for the QC Levers to operate without risers under the feet.  

The channel iron these were on isnt very high quality, +-.05 in height variance.  I took these to a local job shop to see what they wanted to kiss the tops and bottoms.  2-2.5 hours!!  I'm not putting $200.00 into crappy metal, plus I'm pretty sure I can do it on my DP in about the same amount of time.  On the + side, I did get a lead on an unadvertised machine tool repair shop that may be able to re-grind my bed.  Sounds like one of these old timers who won't take his boots off, and will fix your kids tonka truck on the same invoice he builds your custom spaceship on.  Sounds promising.

The other piece goes under the headstock and has an extension welded on the back for the motor mount.  



The tops averaged out to about even, so I started with the rails.



Dirty milling attempt in progress.  I haven't started in on the tops yet, maybe today.  If it gives me too much grief, I'm going to the scrap yard to look for a big hunk of iron.  At least I won't mind paying a few bills on a good piece of material.




Just as a safety note for those like me who will one day search for evidence that a drill press can be a GOOD substitute for a milling machine. My drill press has a special chuck (Jacobs 33-34c).  It has a collar at the top of the taper, that threads onto the spindle and keeps it from coming off until you want it to.




I filled the body with epoxy granite, welded angle iron into the column, and filled it too. It has real column clamps on the column, and the quill, which is 10in long and supports the spindle with 4 tapered roller bearings, and the table is supported at the end by a heavy duty automotive screw jack.  It still vibrates like cheap hotel quarter bed if I use cutter bigger than 3/16 or do more than kiss off more than about .02.  It's an awesome drill press, and a life saver since I don't have a proper milling machine yet, but it's a sorry substitute for the real thing.

I would not feel safe at all trying anything like this with a standard drill chuck held only by the taper.


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## Taz

She told me to go fix my bed, so...








This post could also be filed in the forum category "Jokes no one in the history of machines have ever told before... Ever." LOL

Degreasing prep for paint removal in the wonderful flavor of orange!   Much as I love Zep, that stuff is worse than the first time I inhaled a cigar at 15 years old!  This stuff http://www.wmbarr.com/citristrip/default.aspx I kinda have to try hard not to taste.  It takes just a little longer to work, but it stays wet for over 24 hours, and you can re-constitute it in place if you still have deeper layers to remove (hasn't happened yet).  Best of all, that plastic beneath it is perfectly fine with gobs of it on top, where the refuse will sit and dry for easy disposal.

On to breaking down the rest of the cabinet while it soaks.


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## Taz

Done... Well almost done with this one small part.











Cabinet came apart easy, it's crinkling up right now.  The small leg on the right weighs more than the bed.  This is no cheap import stand, though on further inspection there are a few things that lead me to believe it is not a southbend.



Needs the BFH treatment.



Little tool holder looks like it may have been added by the OO.



Also took some of the work out of filling the voids, by knocking down the high spots.

Before



After





More.





This area was really bad before.



Good day today, very productive and therapeutic!


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## Taz

New bling for the gearbox.



Wasn't sure if I was going to like it, but I do!


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## radial1951

Taz, all I can say is WOW! The bed looks great! Is that the result of just using Citristrip and then washing down? Or did you need to wire brush it too? From your comment, did you have to degrease it before using Citristrip? Thanks...

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Taz, all I can say is WOW! The bed looks great! Is that the result of just using Citristrip and then washing down? Or did you need to wire brush it too? From your comment, did you have to degrease it before using Citristrip? Thanks...
> 
> Regards, RossG
> radial1951
> _____________



Thanks Ross!  Yeah, just citristrip, then I used a bondo knife on the big areas, and a dish brush on the insides.  It's just a matter of waiting enough time, and the paint/stripper all become one mass, it just sorta falls off.  I've never tried this product without degreasing, I'm just in the habit of degreasing anything before applying a chemical treatment.  Too many bottles of "X" wasted because it couldn't get through thick layer of grimey "Y".  $0.13 of Zep purple cancer causer does the trick every time (sometimes the paint comes off in that first step too),


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## Taz

As a side note, I'm doing this entire restoration in an apartment (has a separated garage under someone else's apartment).  I have to get creative how I do things sometimes.  I use Citristrip in my apartment for the smaller items.  It really does smell delicious, and though it still requires chemical resistant gloves, and a little care, it's non-toxic.  I let the parts sit in a big plastic tub all day, and in the evening the stuff just falls off.  Wife loves it.  It sits in the laundry room, on the dryer, till its hard (few days), then disposal is a piece of cake.


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## woodtickgreg

Taz said:


> New bling for the gearbox.
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't sure if I was going to like it, but I do!



Now that's pretty cool, never seen that one done before, Nice touch.


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Is that the result of just using Citristrip and then washing down?



Made a little test without degreasing.  Video'd the results http://youtu.be/obHWrhNYoPs There wasn't too much grease on this particular part, but it had the thickest layers of paint, and was most un-worn by far.  I just spray with water in the end and wipe the residue off, I'll record the rest tomorrow, but this should give you a pretty good idea.


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## Taz

woodtickgreg said:


> Now that's pretty cool, never seen that one done before, Nice touch.



Thanks!  There was a pretty big deformity beneath that left the iron pretty ugly, and I don't want paint chips coming off my lathe, just metal ones!  So a little stainless and voila.  Still have some edges to trim up, and a few places that need a little massaging, but I think it will do the trick.


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## Taz

I die a little inside every time I see it.

Before







Many of the gears were like this, although this was the worst.  The gears in the gearbox levers.  I wasn't sure if they were worth saving at first, but at least I should stop them from damaging other parts.  After the fact, they may actually be OK.







They are definitely missing their proper shape, but not as bad as I thought.


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## Taz

Let the coloring begin!





The canvas.



The high tech, cutting edge, rocket scientist/brain surgeon, application method.



Lots of bubbles to poke.  Takes a minute to get them leveled right too.





And after 10 minutes of bubble patrol, whack-a-mole style.



It's going to be one cool accent color.  Gotta prep the big areas before I can start the main color though.  Enter "grown up play dough".


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## radial1951

Taz said:


> Made a little test without degreasing.  Video'd the results http://youtu.be/obHWrhNYoPs There wasn't too much grease on this particular part, but it had the thickest layers of paint, and was most un-worn by far.  I just spray with water in the end and wipe the residue off, I'll record the rest tomorrow, but this should give you a pretty good idea.


Hi Chad

Thanks for the YouTube Vid. Excellent demo. Very impressed with the Citristrip. After you wipe the residue off, do you need to wash down with hot water and detergent? Do you need to clean/degrease again before painting? Thanks again.

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________


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## Splat

Looking good Chad!  I gotta admit I can't wait to see how the lathe looks completed with that color. Should be awesome!


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## woodtickgreg

Splat said:


> I gotta admit I can't wait to see how the lathe looks completed with that color. Should be awesome!



Me too, but I'm just a little intrigued as he states that this is just an accent color, guess we'll have to wait for the surprise.


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Hi Chad
> 
> Thanks for the YouTube Vid. Excellent demo. Very impressed with the Citristrip. After you wipe the residue off, do you need to wash down with hot water and detergent? Do you need to clean/degrease again before painting? Thanks again.
> 
> Regards, RossG
> radial1951
> _____________



First, my disclaimer... I am not, nor have I ever been a painter of any kind.  I can just do a lot more, for a lot less, if I learn to do things myself.  Plus, it's a hell of a lot of fun!  So take it with a grain of salt.

Before a complete repaint like this, I always wash in a good detergent, then wipe with acetone.  Nothing fancy.  I haven't washed any of the big stuff yet though.  I just wipe the stripper off, mist water over it, and wipe with a clean rag. It'll sit like that till its time to paint.  Before i paint ill actually wash it.  As far as detergents, I like TSP because its in powder form, comes in big and small packages, smells like nothing, and can be found at least 20 places in a city you never thought to look for it (not sure about the UK)  I always keep some in my house, good for lots of stuff.

EDIT:  I took more video the next day, after re-applying day old stuff.  This morning I took everything I scraped off of the two other parts of the stand, and slapped it on portion of the 3rd part.  It's still wet, I thought that would be a good little test.  I have some high strength, impotence causing, tear maker I applied next to it.  I have no idea how they'll compare.


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## Taz

woodtickgreg said:


> Me too, but I'm just a little intrigued as he states that this is just an accent color, guess we'll have to wait for the surprise.



20pts for picking up on the surprise!  I thought the whole lathe might look a little gaudy that way, plus I like lighter colors in the shop.  Grease shows on everything, but dust only shows on dark colors, makes the shop feel a lot cleaner.


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## Restorer

In the Home Shop, "too worn" is defined as the point where: available time, the willingness to apply labor, skill, needed tools and $ are in too short a supply.


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## Taz

Restorer said:


> In the Home Shop, "too worn" is defined as the point where: available time, the willingness to apply labor, skill, needed tools and $ are in too short a supply.



Very good point!  Apart from he impossible I think that is very accurate.  Funny thing is, when i wrote that, I was nearly bankrupt in ALL of those categories, but am currently no more or less so.  Again, apart from the impossible, I think we find/make what we need when in deficit (time/money/knowledge etc...). One of the magical parts of being alive I guess.

You seem to think allot like i do.  If it makes you happy in some way, and doesn't destroy you in some other, GO FOR IT!  When do we get to see some pictures of your machine, or better yet, your machine AND some of its many projects?


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## Taz

Look what I found today.




Looks like it was born October 12th, 1945, and spent its whole life here in Tulsa, OK.

Let me tell you about old Grizzly too... I ordered this today about 10am, a Friday, and it was here by 3pm.  I'm impressed.


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## Taz

So the dealer listed on the serial number card, still has an active address listed with several Industry listings, and I drove over to see if they were still around.  Sadly there is a new company there, but still selling industrial machines??  I checked into them, been around since 1992, I wonder if there is any relation to the original tenant.  Maybe I'll stop in next week, they have 3000sq/ft of shiny new milling machines and lathes... maybe that's a bad idea.

I got the gear inlays all done.  Had to fab (caveman fab) some new arbors to fit them on my polishing machine (cheap drill in a vise).  I'll post some more pics of those later tonight.  

My little test re-using Citristrip waste went amazing.  So much so that the paint fell off before I could get back to video it.  I did grab a few seconds of me scraping (more like lifting) off what looks like rubber sheets.  Will get the rest of those videos put together later too.

I had 2 shafts in the gearbox that were too wasted to even try to use, the gears had so much play you could hear them clanking around just moving it to a different spot on the bench.  Good news is I found a brand spanking new, never used, cone gear shaft for $35.00!  Seems like those internal gearbox pieces must either live forever, or get neglected beyond the point of re-sale because its the first one I've seen.  He's looking to see what else he has for my lathe, may have hit the jackpot on this one.  

I did spend some time trying to mill the channel iron the bed was mounted on.  It's milling OK, but they are so trashed I don't think they are worth working on.  There is almost .125" of cup in both of them. 



On with the course corrections!  I still have the lip on the tray to contend with, the tumbler levers and the lip don't get along unless the lathe has at least 1.5" risers under it, so what's a hobby machinist to do?  Make stuff!!  I still don't know of a place to get scrap around here, and good iron that size is $$$$ off the shelf, so what's left?  I have some precision ground low-carbon 3/8 flat stock that's wide enough, but its not thick enough.  I have some pillow stuffing, but I don't think it's rated for this kind of weight.  I do have something I've been wanting to try though, and I think I may have found my excuse!  I dragged my wife out one weekend a few months back to go problem solving, and thought I found a solution.  I went and picked up the stuff today (1 hour total shopping time), and did a trial run, and it looks like a winner!





Epoxy granite using only cheap (<$1/lb finished weight) & readily available local resources (national chains, non-boutique, non-industrial).  Not the sort of thing that generates 300 pages of forum fodder, and most certainly not the sort of thing you want to go into production with, but for us... Hobbyists... Maybe?  I haven't actually completed a mould yet, but I thought I'd bring you all along for the journey, pass or fail,  I'll start a new thread later, and post the link here.


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## Taz

*Re: 1946 Southbend 9" Model A Restoration*

Got my new main drive shaft assy. in yesterday (shaft/keys/original felt/bushing/nut).

Which would you choose?







Question for you South Bend Lathe gurus'.  The key-way on the outboard side of the shaft is in a different position on the new one.  This is where the gear that engages the two on the banjo bracket mounts.  Is this just a minor difference between mfg. years?  Is it going to create problems if the gear-teeth mounted on the new one don't align with the compound gear on the inboard side, the same way they did on the old one?

Also, (looks like this was lost with the hiccup too) Come checkout the Epoxy Granite Thread, where I'll painfully document how I make THIS set of EG castings.

Epoxy Granite (EG) The cheap and easy way! I hope.


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## woodtickgreg

Visually the one on the bottom looks better but I would mic them out and maybe test fit them to see which one fits better. I can't see how where the key-way is would make any difference. It just locates the gear and keeps it from spinning on the shaft, it's not like this is a timed gear assembly.


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## Taz

woodtickgreg said:


> Visually the one on the bottom looks better but I would mic them out and maybe test fit them to see which one fits better. I can't see how where the key-way is would make any difference. It just locates the gear and keeps it from spinning on the shaft, it's not like this is a timed gear assembly.



Oh it fits!  First thing I did LOL.  It's not all loose and clanked either.  The spinning gears have no play.  It's hard to tell from the photos, but the top one is baaaad.  I just bought the bottom one (NOS - never used), and that answers my gearig question there.  Don't quite have the mechanics of the gearbox all worked out in my head yet, figured better safe than sorry.  Looks like in one they cut the key with the felt slot, and the other they cut both keys together.  Thanks Greg!


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## radial1951

Taz said:


> Look what I found today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it was born October 12th, 1945, and spent its whole life here in Tulsa, OK....



Hi Taz, Just curious, is the age of a South Bend based on the Order Date or the Shipping Date?

Looks like yours was conceived in Oct '45 but wasn't born until Feb '46 !

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________


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## Taz

radial1951 said:


> Hi Taz, Just curious, is the age of a South Bend based on the Order Date or the Shipping Date?
> 
> Looks like yours was conceived in Oct '45 but wasn't born until Feb '46 !
> 
> Regards, RossG
> radial1951
> _____________



I noticed that too.  Well if we're really going to ask the question, was it born when the dealer got it, or when THEY sold it?  I'm going with the MFG date for that reason . It's the only fixed point.


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## Taz

*Re: 1946 Southbend 9" Model A Restoration*

Broken scooter + 3 old computer chassis = free brushless DC power source for South Bend Lathe!

Operation free power is confirmed, the robot parts box wins again!

Some time ago I posted in this thread about something I found in my robot parts box, I don't know if everyone realized it was a 1/2-1hp brushless DC motor.  It came out of a broken electric scooter I picked up some years ago. I thought, if I can make this thing turn for $0.00 or less, I'm going to use it!  Few problems, I had no idea how the ESC worked, no idea how much power it really had, and it looked like it was a 36-48v/40a motor, which is a weird combo to find a free power supply for.

Well, meet the replacement for the monstrous horizontal drive motor mount that took her first, and very successful spin tonight!  Courtesy of 3 old computer power supplies, a few parts from a broken scooter, and a little solder.




Couple of really cool things.  Turns out the ESC actually has an electric brake, an emergency cutoff switch, and of course variable speed along with reversing and status light controls all housed in a 1"x2"x3" box.  This may be my favorite upgrade yet!

OK, now I can continue with my EG thread.


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