# Should I concider a Combo Lathe Mill machines or separate machines; and other stuff.



## CDarby67

Hello all,
                    I am certain that this trhead has been posted before, I have not been able to find a similar question/thread that is recent.

I am new to the hobby. I just finished learning how to do some advanced basic skills - threading, etc...  My maker shop is closing it's doors and I am concidering purchasing a new lathe and mill or a combo. Elsewhere on the forum I have gleaned that Precision Mathews makes a great tool. I often see repeatative warnings to stay away from the chinese manufactured tools. Are all of Percision Mathews tools made somewhere other than China? 

   I see Smithy machines have a very well advertised combo mill/lathe. I do not see many "Pro" Smithy threads or suggestions. Why is this?
I would love to have a full sized engine athe and a 2 ton mill but that is just not possible regrding space of finances.  I do not want to spend $1500-2000 on a enrty level machine and regret that I short changed myself. $5000 is a stretch but I believe that is what I will need to spend to get what I want. The combo tool is attractive because it seems that for a lower price I get a machine that will do what I need for my hobby. I am making aluminium toys (lightsabers) that are T6061 and rarely exceed 16" in length. I do need to be able to do threading, compund cuts, and radial work on a rotary table, I picked up a used 8" rotary table. I am searching for a tail stock to use the table on a mill.

I have a small work shed 12x16 and plan to house the tools and set up a small workshop. The shed is not insulated, am I asking for trouble with rust related to humidity and exposure to the flux of outdoor weather?

Any help, guidance, and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Clint


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## macardoso

Everyone's responses will be personal opinions, just remember that.

There is nothing wrong with Chineese machines. They make parts just like other machines and are affordable. You sacrifice some quality in favor of price. An american machine will be better, but they are often old and worn and are a project themselves. If you want nice machines, buy old american iron. If you want a tool quickly to make parts of good quality, Chineese won't let you down. Precision Matthews is made overseas, but are higher quality than many other suppliers (for a little extra $). Lots of people here buy them and are very happy.

I would avoid a 3 in 1 combo machine. It will not do anything as well as a dedicated machine. Plus, do you want to tear down your milling setup everytime you need to make a little washer on the lathe? I personally vote a strong NO here.

Expect to double the cost of your machine purchase with tooling. I've found this to be true even when working hard to avoid it. Don't worry about buying a whole shop at once. Get the bare minimum and you will collect more over time as your needs and finances justify.

Consider insulating or heating the shed. If not, prepare to spend a lot of time "winterizing" your equipment after each use. MD gets wet and cold and you don't want your expensive tools rusting immediately.

My idea of a good size hobby machine is in the 1000lb range. That's roughly a 12x36 lathe and a large benchtop mill. I've found this has met 99% of my needs with a little room to grow into. It is also small enough to still be moved with shop equipment (engine hoist) when needed. 

Just my thoughts,

Mike


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## Ecosta777

I would lean towards separate machines. The Smithy machines are not that good, and personally I don't think a combo is a good idea either. These machines are meant to do a certain job, and if you put them all together (in my opinion) they're lacking something somewhere. The other downside to a combo is they're relatively small. I started out with bench top grizzly machines and instantly regretted it. They could barely withstand taking small cuts on any material, and I also soon realized the capacity they could do was much smaller than I would like. There are some great old machines that are small enough (South Bend lathes, small Atlas milling machines) as well as the newer Chinese stuff. For a hobbyist either would work fine.


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## T Bredehoft

I was in your place four years ago. The images of the 3 in 1  machines looked like trouble, no room to do anything and having to extend quill or lathe tool. just didn't appeal to me. I bought a MK2 Atlas lathe and one of PM's small mills, PM25, and have been content, though I'm soon upgrading to one of PM's 10-22 lathes.

_Edit_: Correct Typo.


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## DiscoDan

Hey Darby, I live in Arnold near the Community College. Let me know if you need help with anything. I have a 12x36 Craftsman lathe, a bench top Pratt & Whitney horizontal mill and a Craftsman drill press. All good quality vintage machines.


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## SamI

macardoso said:


> Expect to double the cost of your machine purchase with tooling.



I'm not sure why this statement pops up on every new machine thread.  Sure, it's easily done but for a beginner just starting out what do you really need?  When I upgraded my lathe the only tooling I bought was a QCTP (a luxury), an OD turning tool, a boring bar, a parting tool and I already had a set of digital calipers.  The lot set me back less than 10% of the value of the machine.  Sure, every now and then something would come up and I'd tool up appropriately so a few years down the line that statement may be true.

I hope I don't come across as argumentative and this is in no way meant to be a dig at you or anyone who has said this previously, I'm just concerned that beginners just getting into the hobby are put off at the thought of buying a machine because of hidden costs.  Like most hobbies, this one can be expensive but it doesn't have to be.

My advise would be that if you are just starting out then put everything you can afford into the machine and buy just the bare minimum tooling to get you going - you can make a ton of great parts this way.  Probably more so than if you buy a lesser quality machine and all the accessories under the sun, half of which will sit in a tool box for the first year or two and eventually be upgraded to better quality tooling anyway.

As for the OP's original question, I'd agree with what has been said above.  I did briefly consider one when i bought my lathe but after viewing one in a showroom decided against it - the whole machine just felt more cluttered.  For what I was doing at the time a pillar drill was suitable so I bought one to compliment the lathe.  If I were to buy a mill and didn't have the space I'd go for a bench top one, as large as I could accommodate.  I do have a milling table for my cross slide but to be honest it's a bit of a faff to use so I try to avoid it where possible.


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## Latinrascalrg1

I guess I look at it this way.......if space and or cash is the limiting factor then a combo machine may very well be your best option but its all based on your own personal needs and abilities and what you are expecting fron the machines!

For the most part a combo machine is capable of doing many jobs just as well as separate units are however how effectively and efficiently that process is accomplished and how patient you are seem to be the questionable aspect here and it is very much an opinionated question.

So my suggestion would be for you to literally sit and write a "pro/con" sorta list by asking these type of questions; what type of work do i need to accomplish presently or what i may possibly like to do in the future? How accurate do the finished pieces need to be? How many pieces will need to be produced in what sorta time frames?  Do I have the needed shop space for seperate or bigger machine?

My personal advice would be to buy the biggest machine's you can fit in your shop that you can afford to tool up (buying the machine is the cheap part!) And if that should be a combo unit then so be it! However if it were a floor space issue  i would most definitely buy separate "bench sized mill and lathe before a combo! 

I see a combo unit as a"Jack of All Trades but Master Of NONE" affair but if you learn to work within your means and tool limits you can master the tools use.  Ive seen some very very impressive work produced on thise combo units but to be completely honest,  .....if money and space were not a factor i would without hesitation buy separate machines.

Yeah I know,  doesn't exactly answer your question but i still hope it helps somewhat!  
Anyway Good Luck with your decision .


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## mmcmdl

Clint , forget the 3 in 1 machines , there are plenty of nice lathes and mills in the area . Some are great deals , some are not . Know what you're going after and be ready to pounce when they become available . Most likely this spring , I'll be picking up a Jet lathe and some sort of those little mills along with the whole shop . If I decide to go bigger , these are going to go . There are pics on here somewhere of this equipment . Keep your eyes open . Ask around , go to yard sales ,etc . Being this was a huge industrial town some time back , the machines are still buried in garages , basements etc .

I drug a SB heavy 10  10L 10 R something home last week with the intentions of restoring it . Most likely the first warm day in March it'll be on CL . It requires some work as all USA old iron does . But it's here , you're welcome to take a look at it . I'll need my garage space that time of year !


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## markba633csi

Staying away from the combo machines is good advice, unless someone is practically giving one away. 
And tooling does cost if you had to buy everything, like drill bits and such. You may have some tooling already.
Get a good inexpensive 8" caliper, you'll use it a lot. 
mark


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## macardoso

SamI said:


> Sure, it's easily done but for a beginner just starting out what do you really need?



I totally don't interpret your statement as argumentative. As stated above, I'll share my personal experience.  I have been going at this hobby for about 8 years (started right at the end of high school), so I have a lot of acquired tooling. I have almost all of the general purpose stuff (measuring tools, hammers, etc.), so I will not include any purchases of these in my list. Last year I bought a 12x36 lathe for $1100 used. Since I got the machine my extra purchases included missing change gears ($150), 4 jaw chuck ($125), leveling feet and hardware directly for the lathe ($100), QCTP and holders ($150), centers and drill chuck ($50), indexable boring bars, turning holders, threading tools, and parting blades (~$250), an engine hoist to move the thing ($100). I did not purchase any of this to start with, only as it was required for a given job. After a year, I'm up to $925 (plus shipping and other stuff I'm sure I forgot) in additional fees. I don't think anyone would say this is so crazy.

That being said I also don't want to discourage anyone from jumping into this. If you're strapped for cash, you can get by with doing things a little more "creatively" (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing this). 

Maybe a better statement would have been: To utilize the new machine to its full potential, expect to double (or more) your initial investment.

But again, my personal experience, your mileage may vary.


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## ConValSam

Welcome Clint!

When I first thought about setting up a shop twenty years ago, a veteran machinist I knew well counseled me to avoid combo machines no matter what.  He said even if I had to live without a lathe or mill because I could not afford both at once, I would be better off in the long run.  In addition to 


macardoso said:


> Plus, do you want to tear down your milling setup everytime you need to make a little washer on the lathe


, he cited the absolute lack of rigidity possible with a lathe mounted mill.


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## Glenn Brooks

Like others, I would also say stay away from the 3 in 1 machines. Great idea, generally poor versatility in practice.

Now, as an option, you might evaluate the small PM or Sherline CNC mills and lathes. These little CNC machines do surprisingly great amounts of work for their size and low cost. 

Having just looked at a bunch of youtube videos I am reconsidering my long aversion to doing anymore software coding and (horrors upon horrors) thinking about buying one of these small CNC machines to make parts.

Writing G code and learning CAD is the thing- but after that, turning out well made, sophisticated parts is surprisingly easy.

Just something to think about...

Glenn


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## terryw123

I much prefer single machines.   The only way I would want a 3 in 1 is if I didn't have the space for 3 machines.   I would not like changing set of of one machine to use one of the others.   Example in my area.  Shopsmith combo machines.    Buying new, people can spend $2000 or more I'm guessing.  I see them on craigslist all the time for just a couple hundred dollars.  Honestly I don't know why they are so cheap, weather its because people don't like changing setup or quality or????.


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## WCraig

Just a note that the OP said he wants to make ALUMINUM toys (lighsabers).  Perhaps a 3-in-1 isn't such a bad choice.

Craig


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## Aaron_W

The 3 in 1 machines really seem to make the most sense for people with very limited space. You don't actually save that much money vs buying 2 separate machines of equal quality. The mill on most 3 in 1s is quite small compared to the size of the lathe.

Grizzly is one of the easier to compare since they sell 3 in 1 and single function machines.

Their 12x36 3 in 1 costs $4750 https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-12-X-36-Combination-Gunsmithing-Lathe-Mill/G0791

It is essentially their $3950 12x36 G4003G lathe https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-12-x-36-Gunsmithing-Lathe-with-Stand/G4003G

With one of their small mills, probably about like this $895 4x18 mill drill, https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-4-x-18-3-4-HP-Mill-Drill/G0781  or possibly this $1150 6x20 mill drill https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Mill-Drill/G0758 and I think either of these is actually more capable.

So you only end up saving about $100-300 (on a nearly $5000 purchase) and are stuck with a combination that may or may not satisfy you.


If you have limited milling needs, maybe you should consider a milling attachment for a lathe rather than a combo machine. Much cheaper and it doesn't compromise the lathe.  





SamI said:


> I'm not sure why this statement pops up on every new machine thread.





macardoso said:


> I totally don't interpret your statement as argumentative. As stated above, I'll share my personal experience.




If you look at the included tooling individually rather than lumped in with the purchase price of the machine, then the 50-100% the price of the machine often quoted is pretty accurate. Where it gets fuzzy is many new machines are available with a fairly comprehensive basic starter package of tooling in the price of the machine. That tooling isn't free but you are paying for it all in a lump sum. It is definitely worth looking at what all comes with a machine when shopping.  

If you get a lathe that comes with a good starter package, then yeah, you don't have to spend another 50-100% for tooling, because you already did. If you find a cheap bare bones package, then you need to be prepared to spend a bunch more on tooling or you will be very limited.


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## Glenn Goodlett

I'm pretty happy with my Shopmaster CNC 3in1.


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## mikey

Glenn Goodlett said:


> I'm pretty happy with my Shopmaster CNC 3in1.



Glenn, glad to see an actual owner chime in. I have looked at but never owned a combo machine and I think most hobby guys haven't worked with one, either. We all know that you don't know a machine until you've lived with it so your input would be valuable. 

With that said, when I looked at a combo with a friend that was thinking of buying it, my impression is that the milling capability is sorely lacking. The table is essentially the cross slide table and while it was bigger than most cross slide tables, it was still very small compared to even a small benchtop mill. Travel in X (to the left), Y and Z was severely restricted in comparison to a real mill as well. 

So, is your CNC capability just for the lathe, the mill or both? Do you honestly think that a combo is a good buy for someone breaking into the hobby?


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## BROCKWOOD

I am a beginner. My 1st machine is a Grizzly G0773 Lathe / Mill. Although I really do get what (& why) everyone is saying about combo devises, I do not regret having started with what I did. Regardless of whether a Howitzer might be in my future, at the age of 9: a 4-10 shotgun was the correct decision. Now I've bought a real mill & have plans for a real lathe. I'll keep my combo going just the same. I see it all the time: A 1 man shop with a few mills & several lathes. Why? Sometimes you just have to leave a part chucked up & use a different machine to get beyond the next step or order of operation or complimenting part. As is, since I'm still getting my 'real mill' ready (& me prepared) I do allot of planning ahead. My combo cross slide is subject to having a QCTP, vise or rotary table mounted on it at any given time. I don't change those out for fun but only once I'm certain there is nothing else needing to be done with a particular setup. I say study well virtues & limits of everything you can. When a good deal that suites your needs comes along ......... I hope you can seize the opportunity!


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## Jubil

I started out  with a small 3 in 1 and it was a good "learning" machine. At times it was disheartening, at others very gratifying. At the time my machining tools included; an electric drill, hacksaw, file, ac welder and cutting torch. (Absolutely 0 knowledge). I learned that it's limitations were greater than I originally thought. (It didn't even have power feed).
I found an old Cincinnati traytop with a small amount of tooling. That's when the fever hit. I realized I could actually make things. Did some buying and selling, wound up with a Bridgeport and a G0709 along with some other stuff. Life is great. 
Point is , you may or may not be happy with the 3 in 1, lots of things to consider. But if you get it and decide you don't like it, you can always sell it and upgrade. 
But remember, it's a thirst that can't be quenched.


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## projectnut

I think in the long run you'll be happier with individual machines rather than a combo machine.  As for cost, if you're willing to spend $5,000.00 you should be able to find both a good used lathe and milling machine for that price or less.  I have both a Bridgeport Series I milling machine and a Sheldon 13 x 56 lathe.  The pair cost less than what you are considering spending on a combo machine.

For a mill I would consider a used Burke Millrite:
http://www.doranaerospace.com/millrite.html
This machine is about 2/3 the size of a 9" x 42" Bridgeport Series I machine

 Or a small Bridgeport Series I.  Here's a listing for one on eBay.  Don't get too hung up on the price.  They are available for far less money than this seller is asking.  A local equipment dealer in our area sold over a dozen of them last year for $1,500.00 each.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bridgeport...h=item3645b3c1d0:g:BRMAAOSw7U5ZARY3:rk:1:pf:0

For a lathe I would look into something like a 10 to 12" Logan.  Here's a link to some information on Logan's:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/logan/index.html

When I purchased my Sheldon a couple years ago the seller also had a completely rebuilt (including regrinding the ways) Logan similar to this for $2,200.00
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-x-35-Logan-Metal-Lathe-/312444543227?oid=312388841808

Both machines would easily fit into the space you are considering, however I would insulate and heat the space before moving in the machines.  I started with my lathe and two mills in a 3 car garage.  It was fine during the summer months, but all but unusable during the winter.  As I'm typing this it's currently -16*F.  The spring time also had it's share of problems.  On warm days moisture would condense on the cold iron.  The machines had to be wiped down several times daily to keep them from rusting.

The machines only lasted in the garage about 2 years.  I moved all the wood working equipment to one side of the basement and brought in the metal working machines.  Over the years the shop has expanded considerably.  There are now nearly 2 dozen pieces of metal working machinery in the shop.  All of it is old American Iron, and all are in excellent condition.  

There are good used machines to be found.  The best places to look are local shops, universities, technical schools, high schools and government auctions.  Several of my machines came from schools and local businesses.


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## projectnut

Another thing to consider is the cost of tooling.  If you buy a combo machine it's unlikely any of the tooling will transfer to another machine should you decide to upgrade in the future.  If you choose equipment that is more commonly used in the commercial of industrial setting tooling is more likely to be transferable.  While tooling for a combo machine may be less expensive per item it's highly unlikely you'll recover much if any of that investment should you change machines down the road.

Collets are an example of transferable tooling.  I built a 5C collet chuck for my 1916 Seneca Falls Lathe.  This same set of collets will fit my Sheldon lathe, my spin indexer, and my end mill sharpening fixtures.


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## Asbestos

I'm a noob here. and came across this looking up info on mill/lathe things, a couple came up on CL and 1500 sounded a lot better than 4-5k especially for a first  machine.  It looks like the  thumbs down is pretty much the story. I pretty much suspected as much, but it is nice to have the benefit of others opinions.  I guess I have to dive in and figure out how to tell a decent old machine from a never ending project.


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## TomKro

Clint:  If your in the market for equipment, you may want to expand your search radius on Craigslist.  You're pretty close to my location, and I see plenty of nice lathes in central/southern Jersey, the Philly area and north of Philly.  You have to be quick though.  I just saw a few machines come on and off Craigslist in a few hours.  Right now I'm not seeing many of the smaller milling machines, but they do pop up once in a while.  

  Another thing to consider is your power supply.  If you plan to work out of shed, you have to decide how much power you're going to put out there.  That might have a big impact on your choices.  

TomKro


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## BGHansen

Like others have recommended, stay away from the 3-in-ones unless someone gives you one:  Jack of two trades, master of neither.  Here are some lathe and mill options in your general area off CL.  I use the search engine www.searchtempest.com for CL searches.  Plug in your key words, price range, distance, etc. and up pops the list.

Bruce

LATHES

Looks like an Atlas 10" with 3-jaw for $350.
https://scranton.craigslist.org/tls/d/ransom-atlas-metal-lathe/6804576343.html

Jet 9 x 20, $1000
https://southjersey.craigslist.org/tls/d/williamstown-metal-lathe-jet-bd-920n/6793977753.html

Older Grizzly 12 x 37, $3000 (over priced in my opinion, maybe $2000)
https://easternshore.craigslist.org/tls/d/seaford-grizzly-metal-lathe/6802779276.html

Appears to be a South Bend 9 x 24" is excellent shape and well tooled, $2100
https://cnj.craigslist.org/tls/d/bogota-metal-lathe/6799269720.html

Atlas (Craftsman) 12 x 36 with QCGB, don't see any other tooling for $1050
https://delaware.craigslist.org/tls/d/townsend-craftsmen-atlas-12-inch-lathe/6788571027.html

MILLS

Nice Rockwell mill with 4" vise and other tooling, asking $1900
https://allentown.craigslist.org/tls/d/ashfield-rockwellmilling-machine/6805090408.html

Jet round column, $1300
https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/d/morrisville-jet-jmd-18-milling-machine/6804739157.html

Rong Fu style round column, $875
https://reading.craigslist.org/tls/d/pottstown-r8-xy-table-vertical-drilling/6782506246.html

Harbor Freight small bench top mill, $500
https://newjersey.craigslist.org/tls/d/cedar-knolls-benchtop-drill-2-speed/6801895203.html

Rong Fu round column, $950
https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/d/warminster-rong-fu-milling-machine/6796309623.html

MSC round column, $1000
https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/d/wilmington-msc-milling-and-drilling/6793075047.html

Enco round column, very overpriced at $2200
https://lancaster.craigslist.org/tls/d/lancaster-enco-milling-and-drilling/6789539198.html

Enco round column, $1200
https://newjersey.craigslist.org/tls/d/butler-enco-milling-machine/6785138432.html


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## boodogboo

I have a Smith 1324 for about 6yrs now and yes it takes some time to set up but over time about 15 min to swap and the amount of cut is small. Tolerance is not nanometer but around the house good for me. It would be nice to have separate machines but it depends on what you need and can afford.


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