# Timken Spindle Bearings?



## Ken226 (Jan 9, 2021)

The spindle bearings in my 2002 era Birmingham Chinese lathe are still humming along fine, but I sprung a oil leak in the gasket right behind the d1-4 mount. 

I knew ahead of time that I would need to completely remove the spindle to access that gasket.

My current spindle bearings (SG, Phillipines) are fine, with about .0003" runout indicated off of a dead center in the spindle taper,  but I decided to order a new set anyway, to have in-hand just in case I saw something I didn't like while i had it apart. 

I found and ordered a set of Timken P5 bearings (made In Poland) from a reputable dealer in France.  They look good, but there are no markings indicating the P5 rating, other that "P5" hand written on the box, in ink.   There is no mark to indicate the side with max runout.   

These sound legit?  They weren't cheap.   Timkens plethora of 100,000 page .pdf catalogs may as well be written in Klingon.

I can't find anything, in any of them, to indicate how to find a bearings accuracy rating in the part# marked on the race.    Given the size of their .pdf catalogs, I'd need a couple million years to read through them with any kind of thoroughness.


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## Ulma Doctor (Jan 9, 2021)

can you post pictures of the bearing and box?

often, higher end bearings will have a reference mark on the inner race


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## Ken226 (Jan 9, 2021)

Theres no reference mark that I can see.

The 30212 markings are too faint to see in a pic.  Here are the markings on the 30210.









































The 30212 bearing is marked "Timken Y 30212 DL4 70 LC".

I'm reasonably certain that these aren't the standard truck axle bearings, which are "k" rated and marked "30210m-90KM1, and "30212m-KM1", respectively.


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## Ken226 (Jan 9, 2021)

So, according to this "how to tell if your bearings are genuine" .pdf,


			https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.hungsenghuat.com/images/how_to_recognise_timken_original_bearings.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidwoWr44_uAhUSJTQIHVWmAJoQFjAVegQIHxAB&usg=AOvVaw1GUc6-mqWA6j7p8O012K6A
		


I guess I won't learn anything from the markings on the races. Those are plant codes, date codes, and a general part# referencing race size.  I guess I'll be taking 123bearings word for their P5 status until I can install them and take measurements.

Perhaps these things all come off the same assembly lines, with the same plant/size markings, then are measured, sorted and priced according to their precision?


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## machPete99 (Jan 9, 2021)

Yep the higher end bearings typically are just better picks from the main line.


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## Tim9 (Jan 9, 2021)

Usually, the precision bearings I’ve purchased are just as described. They have the same stamped part number imprint as regular Timken bearings, but then they have been etched with little ”O” ‘s
The super precision Timken bearings had 3 etched “O’s”
next level had 2 etched O’s
and the lowest precision bearings had just one O

And also, it’s just as explained above in that they all roll off the same line, but they pic the best for the precision bearings. And they etch the little O’s

I thought I saw a single little O on your picture of the race.

And I might be wrong, but I thought I read somewhere that only Timken does this now. Yet I always wondered about that because I know that some lathes had other brand bearings like FAG. And these were high end laths like Colchester.


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## Ken226 (Jan 9, 2021)

machPete99 said:


> Yep the higher end bearings typically are just better picks from the main line.



That's prettyuch what I suspected.  

The pics I posted earlier were taken by my wife and texted to me, as I was working out of town.  When I got home and looked the bearings over for myself, I found a better part# on the box, which she had missed.





Even though it's only marked on the box, not the bearings themselves, That suffix made them much easier to verify.   According to Timken, the 99E60 suffix means they're P5.


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## Ken226 (Jan 18, 2021)

I dropped my stand and chip pan off at APC powder coating this morning.  They'll be coating the pedestals, center piece, chip pan and slide out chip drawer in gloss grey #GR736:




Afterward, I put these Timken P5 bearings in.   Got my spindle runout down from .0003-.0004 ish, to about .0001" measured with an Edge Technology .0005" toolpost indicator.


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## boneyard51 (Feb 1, 2021)

Don’t mean to be nosey  but I probably will be changing the bearings in my Clausing 6307 soon, as they are making noise. What is the approximate cost of precision bearings of this size? I saw some prices from Clausing and they were four times what I paid for the whole lathe fir just one! Thanks,






Bones


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## Ken226 (Feb 1, 2021)

These were metric bearings. I got them from 123 bearings in France.  30212 front and 30210 rear were about 300$ shipped.


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## boneyard51 (Feb 1, 2021)

Ok thanks. That will hurt, but a whole lot better than $1000 apiece! Since my bearings obviously are worn as they are making noise, would there be an improvement in just replacing them with just regular ” wheel bearings” ?





Bones


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## Ken226 (Feb 1, 2021)

boneyard51 said:


> Ok thanks. That will hurt, but a whole lot better than $1000 apiece! Since my bearings obviously are worn as they are making noise, would there be an improvement in just replacing them with just regular ” wheel bearings” ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, they would probably be quieter.   You'd have to measure your current runout to know how much better the new bearings would be..  

So,  Abec1 / p0  (wheel bearing grade) in the appx size my lathe takes allows up to .0014” of radial runout.  

Abec3 / P6  allows up to .0004"

Abec5 / P5 allows up to .0002"

Abec 7 / P4 allows up to .00015".

It's entirely up to you which level of precision is acceptable.


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## boneyard51 (Feb 1, 2021)

So, for most home machining the P-6, would probably be the ticket? A little more, but quite a bit better? I wonder what the price difference is on bearing of that approximate size are between the P-0 and P-6?




Bones


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## Ken226 (Feb 1, 2021)

boneyard51 said:


> So, for most home machining the P-6, would probably be the ticket? A little more, but quite a bit better? I wonder what the price difference is on bearing of that approximate size are between the P-0 and P-6?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe your Clausing would use inch bearings.   362a cups front and back,  a 365s rear cone and 369a front cone.

Inch bearings would use the abma rating system, so class 6 would be the equivalent of abec3 / p6.  Abma class 5 = P5/ abec5

Don't order anything using those part#s I posted. Verify with your manual.  When I found those, they were shown as being for the 6300 series.  6307 could be different?


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## Ken226 (Feb 1, 2021)

boneyard51 said:


> So, for most home machining the P-6, would probably be the ticket? A little more, but quite a bit better? I wonder what the price difference is on bearing of that approximate size are between the P-0 and P-6?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, Motion carries those bearings.  According to their website, an Abma class 2 365s cone is 67$


			https://www.motionindustries.com/products/sku/00654108;orderDetail=true
		


An Abma class 2 369a cone is 68$


			https://www.motionindustries.com/products/sku/00654144;orderDetail=true
		


The precision 362a cups are 352$ each.


			https://www.motionindustries.com/products/sku/00666874;orderDetail=true
		


And the non-precision 362a cups are 28$ each.


			https://www.motionindustries.com/products/sku/00654085;orderDetail=true
		

Since your concern is radial runout, not so much dimensional precision, perhaps pair the class 2 cones with the standard cups.

Radial runout is predominantly affected by the inner ring and rollers, right? , and not the outer ring.  The precision classification of the outer rings mostly affect dimensional precion.  Any runout on the inner face of the outer rings would just effect spindle alignment to a very small degree, and have no effect on the radial runout of the rotating spindle.

The class 2 cones and standard class cups should get you low radial runout.

Perhaps someone with lmore knowledge on this subject can chime in.

From the chart in the previous post, class2 is equivalent to p2, or am I reading that wrong?


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## ACHiPo (Feb 1, 2021)

Ken226 said:


> Well, they would probably be quieter.   You'd have to measure your current runout to know how much better the new bearings would be..
> 
> So,  Abec1 / p0  (wheel bearing grade) in the appx size my lathe takes allows up to .0014” of radial runout.
> 
> ...


And the cost goes up exponentially...


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## Ken226 (Feb 1, 2021)

ACHiPo said:


> And the cost goes up exponentially...



That is absolutely true.      Everyone's situation is unique. One man's fortune is another's pocket change. I don't presume to dictate how another spends his money, given my ignorance of their finances.


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## ACHiPo (Feb 2, 2021)

Ken226 said:


> That is absolutely true.      Everyone's situation is unique. One man's fortune is another's pocket change. I don't presume to dictate how another spends his money, given my ignorance of their finances.


My statement is just based on the nasty realization I had when I discovered spindle bearings for my lathe were $300 each rather than $40, and that the next level of precision was $1500@.


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## Tim9 (Feb 2, 2021)

Just curious Boneyard...Why do you think your bearings in you Clausing are bad.  ???
FWIW.... I was worried about my 5903 Clausing. So I found the manual and checked the setup accordingly. Ran lathe fast for an hour... then checked to see how many revolutions the spindle would spin. 
  it checked out okay. Still being anal... I pulled the cover off the headstock and ran a small magnet all over the bottom “oil pan” of the housing . I didn’t get any small pieces of metal. I mean nothing. There’s no way in hell bearings could be bad and not have all kinds of small bits of metal.
 So I’m good now. I don’t need any new bearings.


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## mikey (Feb 2, 2021)

Tim9 said:


> So I’m good now. I don’t need any new bearings.



Tim, just wondering if the degree of run out your spindle has would have anything to do with your assessment. Not disagreeing with you but in my limited experience, you can have a bearing that is junk but still holding together and will run out like crazy. For a machine spindle, this sort of matters, right?


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## Alcap (Feb 2, 2021)

Im trying to understand the reason the bearings need to be so precise. If you had a mid grade P6 with .0004 runout at each end of the headstock would the runout stay the same durning rotation of the bearings turning between the cone and race ?  Even if it didn’t change I would think if one happened to be off 180* it would cause a taper ?


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## Cadillac (Feb 2, 2021)

That is why precision bearing are marked for high spots. When one removes the spindle it should also be checked. Put on a precise set of v blocks and the high spot of spindle should be marked on both bearing surfaces. Once checked, bearings should be rotated to spindle to try and eliminate runout. Definately not a throw them on and install situation.


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 2, 2021)

machPete99 said:


> Yep the higher end bearings typically are just better picks from the main line.


I don’t know about Timken, but at FAG that’s not true.  The components may be taken from the main line, but they are measured and reworked to the level of precision needed.  That is why they are so expensive, a significant amount of hand work is needed to get the higher levels of precision.  Tolerances for normal precision bearings are fairly loose and can be run on high speed production machinery without the need for manual labor.
Barden Bearings for example only makes ABEC 7 and 9 bearings.  The class 7 bearing components are measured at the production machines and run through the grinding/lapping machines until they pass, or are scrapped.  For ABEC 9 bearings, the components are taken from the production line and brought into a temperature controlled room and measured to the required standards once they have reached the required temperature.  There are specialized machines that are used only on the class 9 bearings in the temperature controlled room.  The amount of process time and labor to go up from each class is significant, and the price reflects that.  

If you want to get a potentially higher precision bearing at a normal cost, look for FAG X-Life bearings.  FAG changed their process about 16 or so years ago and called it X-Life. These bearings are guaranteed at the normal P0 precision, but often meet P6 standards due to tighter process control than in the past, but that is not guaranteed!  You could get a bearing that only meets P0, but in general it is a higher quality and precise bearing than what was available previously.


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## boneyard51 (Feb 2, 2021)

Well, thanks guys, a lot of info! As far as my ability to pay for bearings, I would get the better bearings for a hundred dollar or so  increase in price. I probably would buy a bearing set of the same grade. But , I am not spending crazy money for a  quarter of a thousand. I don’t need that degree of precision . Most of my stuff is just playing and building things where +or- .005 would work. When at the production machine shop,I learned my trade and worked at for a couple of years in the previous century, most of our tolerances were + - .005.  But when doing the job on my lathe , I would like the most bang for my buck.
As for determining why I need bearings, it is mostly sound. Most lathes in good shape have a very pleasing “ whirr” . My lathe has a sound and ”feel” that I have come to associate with pitted bearings. It sounds like the spindle bearings to me. But I know sound can transfer and other things could cause the sound. I was a professional mechanic for most of my life and have chased “ sounds” many times. On my Clausing 6307 the top of the gear box comes off real easy and when I get to the point of addressing this problem, my first step will be removing the lid and a close inspection.
Again thanks, guys! I am amazed with the knowledge you guys have!




Bones


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## boneyard51 (Feb 2, 2021)

Ok, I thought that price on the 362A #3 precision cup was a mis print at $352! That probably is not going into my lathe! Lol!  But for most of my stuff a swinging hatchet would work! Just don’t like the sound!






Bones


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## Ken226 (Feb 2, 2021)

boneyard51 said:


> Ok, I thought that price on the 362A #3 precision cup was a mis print at $352! That probably is not going into my lathe! Lol!  But for most of my stuff a swinging hatchet would work! Just don’t like the sound!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Radial runout in a rotating spindle comes from the inner race (cone).

Runout in the outer race (cup), does not rotate, as that race is pressed into the headstock,  but manifests itself in the form of a slight angularity.

example: If your front/rear bearings are 16" apart, and the rear cup runout is .0002",   and the front race has .0002" as well,  putting the high side of both races on top results in no angularity.    If the rear race high side is on the left, and the front race high side is on the right, it'll move your spindle axis alignment out by .0004" per 16".  That can be adjusted out by a headstock alignment.    If you can identify the high runout side of the cups (some bearings have this marked on the race),  just mount them with the high sides on top, and your good.

If you used the cones listed previously, with the non precision cups,  you would get much better runout than axle bearings, for not much more money.   From the looks in the previous post, about 200$ total.

Those cones were listed as class 2 precision.  Unless that is a misprint, it's a smokin deal.  Class 2 is equivalent to Abec 9 / p2 precision.   I actually suspect that's some kind of misprint, due to the low price of those cones.


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## mikey (Feb 2, 2021)

Ischgl99 said:


> I don’t know about Timken, but at FAG that’s not true.  The components may be taken from the main line, but they are measured and reworked to the level of precision needed.  That is why they are so expensive, a significant amount of hand work is needed to get the higher levels of precision.  Tolerances for normal precision bearings are fairly loose and can be run on high speed production machinery without the need for manual labor.
> Barden Bearings for example only makes ABEC 7 and 9 bearings.  The class 7 bearing components are measured at the production machines and run through the grinding/lapping machines until they pass, or are scrapped.  For ABEC 9 bearings, the components are taken from the production line and brought into a temperature controlled room and measured to the required standards once they have reached the required temperature.  There are specialized machines that are used only on the class 9 bearings in the temperature controlled room.  The amount of process time and labor to go up from each class is significant, and the price reflects that.
> 
> If you want to get a potentially higher precision bearing at a normal cost, look for FAG X-Life bearings.  FAG changed their process about 16 or so years ago and called it X-Life. These bearings are guaranteed at the normal P0 precision, but often meet P6 standards due to tighter process control than in the past, but that is not guaranteed!  You could get a bearing that only meets P0, but in general it is a higher quality and precise bearing than what was available previously.



Can I ask your background with regard to bearings? It sounds like you have personal experience working with/for a bearing maker.


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 2, 2021)

mikey said:


> Can I ask your background with regard to bearings? It sounds like you have personal experience working with/for a bearing maker.


I was the Industrial Services Manager for FAG Bearings in a previous life.


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## ACHiPo (Feb 2, 2021)

Ischgl99 said:


> I was the Industrial Services Manager for FAG Bearings in a previous life.


Good man to have in the conversation!  Notice you're from New Milford.  A buddy of mine lives in Milford (I assume thwy're close) and has been introducing me to the fattening ways of New Haven apizza.


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 2, 2021)

ACHiPo said:


> Good man to have in the conversation!  Notice you're from New Milford.  A buddy of mine lives in Milford (I assume their close) and has been introducing me to the fattening ways of New Haven apizza.


Thanks, it’s been a number of years since I worked there, but I’ll help out where I can.

Milford is about an hour away, I’m up in the northwest hills and Milford is along the coast.  Funny side story, we refinanced our mortgage twice a number of years ago when rates were falling and the mortgage company sent the lawyer to Milford instead of New Milford, twice!  I grew up in NJ, I haven’t decided yet if New Haven or NJ pizza is better.  I think I need to try a few hundred more slices before I call it either way


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## mikey (Feb 2, 2021)

Ischgl99 said:


> I was the Industrial Services Manager for FAG Bearings in a previous life.


Ah, good to know. I have FAG bearings in my lathe and mill, the latter with XL bearings. When given a choice, I always go with FAG because of their consistent quality.


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## Ischgl99 (Feb 2, 2021)

mikey said:


> Ah, good to know. I have FAG bearings in my lathe and mill, the latter with XL bearings. When given a choice, I always go with FAG because of their consistent quality.


FAG makes excellent products and the X-Life line is a nice step up.  I saw some test results comparing the steel they use to the second tier manufacturers and it was amazing the difference.  That and the improved manufacturing process is why they are able to offer X-Life quality bearings.  I won’t intentionally buy any other brand.


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## mikey (Feb 2, 2021)

Ischgl99 said:


> FAG makes excellent products and the X-Life line is a nice step up.  I saw some test results comparing the steel they use to the second tier manufacturers and it was amazing the difference.  That and the improved manufacturing process is why they are able to offer X-Life quality bearings.  I won’t intentionally buy any other brand.



Yeah, their honing process is so good that no break in is required. More importantly, my mill has just under 0.0001" TIR because of those bearings so for me, I will also stick with FAG.


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## Tim9 (Feb 4, 2021)

boneyard51 said:


> Well, thanks guys, a lot of info! As far as my ability to pay for bearings, I would get the better bearings for a hundred dollar or so  increase in price. I probably would buy a bearing set of the same grade. But , I am not spending crazy money for a  quarter of a thousand. I don’t need that degree of precision . Most of my stuff is just playing and building things where +or- .005 would work. When at the production machine shop,I learned my trade and worked at for a couple of years in the previous century, most of our tolerances were + - .005.  But when doing the job on my lathe , I would like the most bang for my buck.
> As for determining why I need bearings, it is mostly sound. Most lathes in good shape have a very pleasing “ whirr” . My lathe has a sound and ”feel” that I have come to associate with pitted bearings. It sounds like the spindle bearings to me. But I know sound can transfer and other things could cause the sound. I was a professional mechanic for most of my life and have chased “ sounds” many times. On my Clausing 6307 the top of the gear box comes off real easy and when I get to the point of addressing this problem, my first step will be removing the lid and a close inspection.
> Again thanks, guys! I am amazed with the knowledge you guys have!
> 
> ...


Pitted bearings will deposit metal bits in your crankcase. If the bearings are bad...or the races are pitted, my experience has been that under a load and at high speed the bearings start to flake little pieces of metal off. And then that metal ends up in your crankcase. I seriously think that if your bearings are bad then you are going to have lots of little metal flakes in your crankcase. Check that. If you don’t have any, then hold off buying/changing your bearings.

  Clausing lathes are a bit noisy .  Especially if there’s a countershaft with the clutch/brake.
FWIW... is the noise the same when you run the lathe with that forward  /  Reverse lever in the neutral position. I ask this because there’s no doubt mine has more noise when my quick change gear box is running. In neutral, I think that’s out of the loop.

I too was thinking I had bad spindle bearings. But after reading a lot of threads from PM posted by some guys much more experienced than I... I was left with the impression that as long as the lathe wasn’t damaged and oil levels kept proper... lathe spindle bearings just don’t go bad that often. Now.... I think things are different on a mill spindle. They go bad much more often. But that’s  a different animal. A lathe has a constant bath of oil. That’s a very good design. Kind of like a manual transmission. They hold up well if they don’t leak too.

   Plus...we are talking pretty big roller bearings in a lathes spindle. Also...make sure your bearings in your motor aren’t bad. Now those were screaming bad in my lathe. Changed them and it’s been much better going on 3 years now.

by the way Boneyard. Changing the oil in the Clausing leaves a little oil in the bottom of the crankcase. So,,, any metal stays there even if you drain and refill . The drain plug is on the side. Not the bottom of the crankcase. So, any metal flaking off bearings is going to still be at the bottom of your crankcase. And another thing. My lathe sat outside in the weather a while. There wasn’t any rust or water in mine. That’s why I am fairly confident that I don’t need bearings. Do yourself a favor and use a stethoscope to check everything beforehand.


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## Ken226 (Feb 5, 2021)

@boneyard51

Tim9 addressed some very important points in his post above.

So far, most of us have answered your questions as-asked, assuming that your bearings are indeed in need of attention.

  However, if you haven't actually measured your spindle runout, or pulled the headstock cover / bearing caps for inspection,  you should most definitely do so before dropping $$$ on parts that you may not need. 

Get one of those telescopic magnetic dropped-bolt picker upper things, and dip it down to the bottom of your oil, fish around and see how much and what kind of metal particles come up with it.

Perhaps you just need to adjust the preload.  I've purchased brand-new lathes that had very loose bearings.  Run @ 2000rpm for half an hour, with not a single degree° of temperature increase, and measureable spindle end play.  I've several times reduced spindle runout by several thousandths with just a couple degrees rotation of the preload nut.

Also, I recently replaced my electric motor bearings with a set of 20$ Timkens and 75% of the lathes mechanical noise disappeared.  I created a post about that somewhere on here.

I also added a gasket between the motor mount and bed, using a thin sheet of gasket material from auto-zone, and it made a noticeable difference as well.   I was shocked at how much difference these seemingly insignificant things made.

Don't start replacing things until you've actually checked them.


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## boneyard51 (Feb 5, 2021)

Thanks guys! All good points! The lathe is currently at the ranch shop and I am making room in my detached garage at my residence for it. So I really don’t have hands on it yet. I only used it a couple of times a few years ago, and remember some noise in the headstock area. My first step will be with the sethoscope. That will give me direction. Then I will inspect the motor and belt. Next will be draining the oil after running a magnet  around in the floor of the gear box.  Then cleaning the gear box and inspecting the gears and bearings. Next I will run the lathe without the top or oil and again use the stethoscope to pin point the noise, if it is still there.

Only after I have determined that I have compromised bearing will I replace them. I always kinda plan ahead on these projects, that‘s where I found an old Clausing price sheet that priced the bearings over $1000!  That ain’t going to happen in my lathe! Lol
That’s why I was asking about these bearings. My machining is mainly just playing around, building stuff for my pleasure. Most of my projects don’t require extremely close tolerances. I have determined from the info you guys have given me , that the bearings are just common tapered bearings, but the ones in the lathe are held to a closer tolerance. And that there are several steps in that tolerance and is reflected in price!  There will be choices in my future! Thanks







Bones


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## Ken226 (Feb 17, 2021)

I got my stand back from the powdercoater today.    Got it levelled up, and made a couple adjustments to the headstock alignment and tailstock alignment.

After getting it levelled,  I had .005" of taper on an 8" test bar.     After an hour of loosening/tightening various headstock screws and adjusters I got it down to .0002" over 8".

Then, had to bump the tailstock over.  Had .003" taper on a 40" test bar between centers.

Before:





After:


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## Tim9 (Feb 17, 2021)

Find yourself the part numbers for your bearings. Preferably Timken and then cross that to the most common brand you think your lathe uses. Then just keep an eye out on EBay. That’s what I did for my Burke Millrite. Got pretty lucky... think I spent @ 225.00 for 2 precision bearings and two precision races. Someone had put regular wheel bearings in my mill. Still not perfect and I tried grinding the R-8 taper. Next I’m going to try to hard turn it. I think I’m still at about 1-1/2 thousands out. 
anyway...Precision bearings show up on EBay often.


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## boneyard51 (Feb 17, 2021)

Tim9 said:


> Find yourself the part numbers for your bearings. Preferably Timken and then cross that to the most common brand you think your lathe uses. Then just keep an eye out on EBay. That’s what I did for my Burke Millrite. Got pretty lucky... think I spent @ 225.00 for 2 precision bearings and two precision races. Someone had put regular wheel bearings in my mill. Still not perfect and I tried grinding the R-8 taper. Next I’m going to try to hard turn it. I think I’m still at about 1-1/2 thousands out.
> anyway...Precision bearings show up on EBay often.


Ok, will do! The lathe is still at the ranch and here in Oklahoma we have been having 15 below zero weather with ten inches of snow. So... things have slowed to a stand still around here!





Bones


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## G-ManBart (Feb 18, 2021)

Tim9 said:


> Changing the oil in the Clausing leaves a little oil in the bottom of the crankcase. So,,, any metal stays there even if you drain and refill . The drain plug is on the side. Not the bottom of the crankcase. So, any metal flaking off bearings is going to still be at the bottom of your crankcase.



I'm not sure if it varies with model, but I just drained the oil in the crankcase on my Clausing 6913.  It has a small depressed sump area close to the drain to catch shavings/debris.  I used a little lube pump normally meant for attaching to containers and pumping into gearboxes and differentials...I just stuck the suction tube in that sump and it pulled the oil out nicely.  I only say that as someone might not notice if they just drained the oil and refilled without looking closely.


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