# Just bought a Starrett 6" machinist level (lathe leveling)



## Pcmaker (May 30, 2019)

Just ordered a Starrett 6" level.

I haven't leveled my lathe before, it's a PM1127

My plan is to use 123 blocks on the opposing ways close to the headstock, set my level, zero the bubble on the level

Then go to the tailstock end, set the 123 blocks and level on that end and lift one leg until the bubble is exactly as it is on the the headstock. 

Do you guys recommed using feeler gauges to prop up one leg of the lathe? My bench does not have adjustable feet. My lathe is bolted to the workbench.

The carriage is easy to turn when it's close to the headstock, but gets harder when I move it to the middle and gets easier as I move closer to the tailstock.


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## darkzero (May 30, 2019)

I use 123 blocks also.

As for your carriage it's probably not bed twist causing that unless it's twisted bad. First check under the ways where the carriage "gibs" ride for gunk, body filler, paint, etc.


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## Winegrower (May 30, 2019)

I just leveled my Takisawa lathe using a 12” Starrett machinist level and 123 blocks.   This lathe has adjusting bolts in 6 places, and I was quite impressed at how sensitive the level was.     Near the end, maybe a 5 degree wrench movement would shift the bubble an index mark.   I am nerdy enough that it was kinda fun.


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## Winegrower (May 30, 2019)

The Takisawa is a very beefy lathe, can’t really say it made much difference...but the manual makes a big deal out of it.   So...I did it.


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## darkzero (May 30, 2019)

Winegrower said:


> The Takisawa is a very beefy lathe, can’t really say it made much difference...but the manual makes a big deal out of it.   So...I did it.



Did you make test cuts, before & after?


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## Pcmaker (May 30, 2019)

Didn't know there's Japanese lathes til just now


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## darkzero (May 30, 2019)

Pcmaker said:


> Didn't know there's Japanese lathes til just now



Surely you've heard of Mori Seiki & Mazak? Those are 2 big names. There are a number of others though.


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## Winegrower (May 30, 2019)

I didn’t take the time to make test cuts...duh.   Afterward I cut about a 9” steel bar on centers, was .001 smaller at the chuck end.   Have to figure out if I care enough to do more.  And  Pcmaker, check out Takisawa 800D.   Japanese design, still in production, in Taiwan, but not distributed in the US anymore.  It is terrific.


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## darkzero (May 30, 2019)

Winegrower said:


> I didn’t take the time to make test cuts...duh.   Afterward I cut about a 9” steel bar on centers, was .001 smaller at the chuck end.   Have to figure out if I care enough to do more.  And  Pcmaker, check out Takisawa 800D.   Japanese design, still in production, in Taiwan, but not distributed in the US anymore.  It is terrific.



Make a test cut without the tailstock to see if it cuts a taper, turning between centers will also factor in how far your tailstock is out of alignment. Point of leveling is to remove bed twist, not necessarily level to the world.

Use a sharp cutter to minimize deflection, use a bar that's large in enough in diameter to avoid deflection as well. Again, test cut without tail stock support. It's not uncommon to tweak the leveling after leveling "perfect" with a level to remove any little taper that the lathe still may cut. This process will also tell you if your headstock is in alignment.

I level the lathe first, make a test cut, adjust until I'm happy with how little taper is cut, then adjust the tailstock by turning between centers to align the tailstock.


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## benmychree (May 30, 2019)

A Starrett 6" level is nowhere sensitive enough to level any lathe, the grads are .005" per foot; the level used for machinery leveling and alignment is 10 times more sensitive, .0005" per foot, a #98 level is not going to do the job.


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## Firstgear (May 30, 2019)

benmychree said:


> A Starrett 6" level is nowhere sensitive enough to level any lathe, the grads are .005" per foot; the level used for machinery leveling and alignment is 10 times more sensitive, .0005" per foot, a #98 level is not going to do the job.


Well, I hear ya, but here is a Starrett 18” Machinist level and it is only accurate 0.005” per foot.  For about $350 give or take.





						98-18 Machinists Level with Ground and Graduated Vial
					

The Starrett 98 Machinists Level with Ground and Graduated Vial includes a cross test vial and a single plumb vial. 450mm (18") size, without case.




					www.starrett.com
				





So to get the 0.0005” per foot you need to spend $900.  





						199Z Master Precision Level
					

The Starrett 199 Master Precision Level provides the ability to ensure a level machine setup, which in turn increases the efficiency of modern, high speed machinery. Master Precision Level, 15" (380mm).




					www.starrett.com
				




Seems to me for home Hobbyists the lower cost levels at 0.005” will be fine.  If I was a machine shop with customers then I would want to be as level as possible.


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## Pcmaker (May 30, 2019)

This is what I ordered



			Amazon.com


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## benmychree (May 30, 2019)

If one watches e bay, high quality levels do come around occasionally for reasonable prices, that is how I got the Pratt & Whitney precision level that I use.  As many people have advised, for smaller machines, level does not matter, alignment does, and it can be accomplished by the two collar method at little expense or trouble.  BTW, there are precision levels listed at the bottom of the Amazon page that are priced lower than the Starrett level, 12" .0005 accuracy ----- (claimed)


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## Pcmaker (May 30, 2019)

Does .005 per foot mean that the most accurate I can get the lathe if I level is with this is at .005 per foot?


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## benmychree (May 30, 2019)

Not necessarily, it just means that it is not accurate enough for machine alignment purposes; lots better than a carpenter's level, but not nearly accurate enough for alignment purposes; if you had it dead on the mark at each end of the lathe bed, it could have a considerable twist in the bed, resulting in the lathe cutting a taper in a chucking mode.


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## Firstgear (May 30, 2019)

benmychree said:


> Not necessarily, it just means that it is not accurate enough for machine alignment purposes; lots better than a carpenter's level, but not nearly accurate enough for alignment purposes; if you had it dead on the mark at each end of the lathe bed, it could have a considerable twist in the bed, resulting in the lathe cutting a taper in a chucking mode.


Which is why you need to cut a piece about 12-16” long and at least an inch in diameter and see if it has a taper. The taper is what you want to avoid.  Get it level best you can then you have to make a cut.  Spot on is no taper.  There are a number of videos on YouTube that discuss this.  Joe Pi is one of the best.


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## Pcmaker (May 30, 2019)

I guess I can start with the level to get it close and start turning a large diameter rod, then adjust the lathe accordingly to the taper.


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## benmychree (May 30, 2019)

For a relatively small lathe, 12 -16" long is way too long, especially if it it=s small diameter, sag and spring will negate any useful info.  A test bar that is perhaps 1 1/4 diameter and 6 -8" long will tell the story, with most of the length turned undersize except the ends, perhaps 1/4" long, a very light cut at fine feed on each "collar" carefully measured will indicate if taper is present, then the bed is slightly twisted to negate that taper, adjustments made until the cut is straight.  There have been very many posts on this subject, try to find them, there is a lot of good information there.


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## RJSakowski (May 31, 2019)

High sensitivity import levels are available for less than $100.








						8'' Precision Machinist Level Engineers Bar Inspection Block 0.0005''/10''  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 8'' Precision Machinist Level Engineers Bar Inspection Block 0.0005''/10'' at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## Moper361 (May 31, 2019)

Last time i saw a lathe being levelled was by my father in the shed on the farm 
He used a plum bob 

There was a plate that had been machined  to sit on the ways and it had a very long rod sticking up in the air to hang the plum bob of .thinking about it the longer the rod the more accurate it would have been .It had the rod monted on a hinge set up with an adjuster bolt .You could place the unit on the lathe then adjust the rod to get the plum bob to line up with the make on the base for the first reading at chuck end and then move it down the bed to look at other readings .
It worked quite well from what i can remember however it needs to be in an enviroment were wind or breeze factor could not upset the string


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## Pcmaker (May 31, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> High sensitivity import levels are available for less than $100.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok, I cancelled my Amazon order and bought this instead. It'll take a month to get over here, though. Probably has to be shipped from China

I'll be happy with .0005 over 10"


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## Richard King 2 (May 31, 2019)

I love John as a good friend, but I say you can use a .005" level to level align a lathe bed.  If the bubble division is say 1/16 wide and 1 line is .005" then if you adjust the leveling screws or shim under the feet so the bubble  repeats to the same spot then your with-in .0005".  1/2 a bubble line out is .0025, a 1/4 out is .00125, etc.  I have used a magnifier glass to get it closer.  

 Normal spec. on a new machine is .0002" per 12" accuracy and on a old one  are worn more then that, so why get that upset if center to center is 24" when new machine accuracy is .0004"  If you can level it to with-in 1/2 a bubble on a .005" level on a worn machine what can you expect?   Once you have the bed as level as possible with the .005" level you do test cuts or what is called the 2-collar test to tweak it in.   

This part is bigger then your small lathe, but it shows how to do it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZP0o06gsco&t=571s  .   You can use a 1" x 3" between collars on a piece of aluminum   I showed Adam (abomb) how to do this as other students.  John or Benchee has attended what 4 of my classes as a student and quest as he has forgot more about machine shop then most will ever know.  Some folks can't afford the expensive levels and the cheaper levels will get you close.   Here is another one I showed Stefan G on Tail Stock alignment.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLn0Ch1_KQM


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## Pcmaker (May 31, 2019)

If it's .005 per graduation mark on the vial, it shouldn't be an issue then. If your bubble is visibly right on the same line on both ends of the lathe bed, then it should be less than 1/10th of .005 difference.


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## PT Doc (May 31, 2019)

For those wanting to buy machinist levels I would recommend putting a want to buy ad on Craigslist. I was able to buy a 12” starrett 99 and 199 for $85 and $235. Boxes were less than mint but the levels are mint. Many times these are bought and not used much. I would pass on eBay for something like levels. Too many people buying things and reselling them. Using black sharpie to cover up dings and scratching out initial sand seeking in like new condition.


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## PT Doc (May 31, 2019)

Starrett 199 Master Precision Level, 2 Vials, 15" OAL, USED  | eBay
					

Manufacturer: Starrett. Model: 199. Ground and Graduated Main Vial, One Division Equals 0.0005 In/Ft. Includes level, wood case. Overall Length: 15". Item Condition: Used. Local Pick-up.



					www.ebay.com


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## RJSakowski (May 31, 2019)

A few points concerning level calibration.  First, level vials are one of two deswigns: the vial interior can be barrel shaped or a slightly curved cylinder.  The former is now used in most modern carpenter's and mason's levels because the vial can be rotated around its axis and not lose accuracy.  The curved cylinder was formerly used in all levels and is used in precision levels.  If the level is tilted to any great degree, it loses its calibration.  For this reason, cross vials are incorporated in precision levels. Why is this important?  Because if the vial is tilted due to a surface with an out of level condition in the direction perpendicular to the calibration line, it will affect the calibration.  Note that this is not a sensitive adjustment.  My level's cross vial has a sensitivity of around .025"/10"  or 1/50th that of the main vial.

While it is not necessary that a calibration surface not be a level plane or even have a level line, as has beeen noted in previous posts, it is desirable to have as close to level a surface as possible.  Another issue is one of surface flatness.  When trying to calibrate a level with.0005"/12" sensitivity, surface imperfections on the order of a fraction of a thousandth can affect the calibration process.  Most surfaces that I have run across do not have that level of flatness. To that end, I would suggest that a surface plate be used.  If a surface plate is not available, a suitable calibration setup can be made using two vee blocks, two dowel pins or pin gages, and a straight bar.  A straight bar slightly longer than the length of the level is clamped to a flat surface.  The surface can be the bed of a mill.  The two vee blocks are set on the surface with the vees perpendicular to the bar and the ends of the block against the bar and the center to center distance about a inch less than the length of the level.  Two dowel pins are placed in the vees and the level placed on the pins with the side of the level flush with the ends of the vee blocks.  This provides a stable and reproducible alignment setup.  If pin gages are used, the pin diameters can be selected to bring the contact surface close to level, less than .002"/12".


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## Pcmaker (Jun 5, 2019)

It was delivered yesterday afternoon, but someone stole my UPS package.


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## Dabbler (Jun 5, 2019)

I'm sorry you lost your find.


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## Richard King 2 (Jun 5, 2019)

Contact UPS and tell them as they do offer insurance up to $50.00 I think..  Also call and report it to the local police.  See if you can have it shipped to local UPS store and you can go there to pick -it up.


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## WarrenP (Jun 5, 2019)

RJSakowski said:


> High sensitivity import levels are available for less than $100.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Looks like the same one Grizzly sells...


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## RJSakowski (Jun 5, 2019)

WarrenP said:


> Looks like the same one Grizzly sells...


And the same as the one I purchased a few years ago.


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## Pcmaker (Jun 6, 2019)

They probably all came from the same factory in China and just rebranded.


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## Dabbler (Jun 6, 2019)

I have one of those offshore levels, and the loctitie-type product they use is really difficult to remove - and that is necessary b/c it is way out of alignment.  I abandoned work on it for more pressing items.  One day I'll fix it, but until then, I have a Moore and Wright that works fine.


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